# All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)



## Colin Parkinson

Planning on buying some masks, gloves and more hand sanitizer to be on the safe side. Vancouver is likely highly at risk and North Van has a fairly high population of Mainland Chinese.    


TORONTO – Public health officials say they identified a “presumptive positive” case at Toronto’s Sunnybrook Hospital.

The illness has infected more than 1,200 people and killed at least 41 in China, the epicentre of the outbreak.

More to come. https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/01/25/public-health-officials-in-ontario-call-evening-news-conference/

_- mod edit to make thread title broader -_


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## brihard

Colin P said:
			
		

> Planning on buying some masks, gloves and more hand sanitizer to be on the safe side. Vancouver is likely highly at risk and North Van has a fairly high population of Mainland Chinese.
> 
> 
> TORONTO – Public health officials say they identified a “presumptive positive” case at Toronto’s Sunnybrook Hospital.
> 
> The illness has infected more than 1,200 people and killed at least 41 in China, the epicentre of the outbreak.
> 
> More to come. https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/01/25/public-health-officials-in-ontario-call-evening-news-conference/



Crap. The wife and I are supposed to fly to Vancouver at the start of March and stay there for a week.


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## Eye In The Sky

I just went thru Toronto on WestJet twice this past week...I've sneezed a few times today...and I'm reading _World Without End_ right now.  Not making me go  anic:...yet.    ;D


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## Colin Parkinson

Brihard said:
			
		

> Crap. The wife and I are supposed to fly to Vancouver at the start of March and stay there for a week.



Well we can buy you a beer if you survive long enough..... 8)


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## Jarnhamar

Lock down Toronto like they did Wuhan.


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## Retired AF Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lock down Toronto like they did Wuhan.



According to this article lock downs like Wuhan are ineffective, plus it would be a violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights.


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## medicineman

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> According to this article lock downs like Wuhan are ineffective, plus it would be a violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights.



Excerpt from the "Emergencies Act" regarding powers during the declaration of a public welfare emergency:  
Orders and regulations
8 (1) While a declaration of a public welfare emergency is in effect, the Governor in Council may make such orders or regulations with respect to the following matters as the Governor in Council believes, on reasonable grounds, are necessary for dealing with the emergency:
(a) the regulation or prohibition of travel to, from or within any specified area, where necessary for the protection of the health or safety of individuals;

MM


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## mariomike

Time for some gentle, good humour,



> Coronavirus inside air passenger excited about Doug Ford’s cuts to public health
> https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/01/coronavirus-inside-air-passenger-excited-about-doug-fords-cuts-to-public-health/
> SOMEWHERE OVER THE PACIFIC OCEAN – A Coronavirus cell incubating in an air passenger destined for Pearson International Airport is eager to exploit the many ‘efficiencies’ in the public health system thanks to Premier Doug Ford’s recent cuts.
> 
> "I prefer to travel by foot rather than ambulance services since they were cut too."
> 
> The potentially deadly virus said it always wanted to see the CN Tower, Parliament Hill, and other attractions, and have them closed to the public.
> 
> “My cousin, SARS, was able to meet so many people from Ontario back in 2003 thanks in large part to Mike Harris’ Common Sense Revolution,” said 2019-nCoV. “Too bad he missed the SARSStock. I heard the Stones were there!”





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lock down Toronto like they did Wuhan.



That would include shutting down the largest and busiest airport in Canada. It also happens to be the second busiest international airport in the Americas.


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## medicineman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Time for some gentle, good humour,
> 
> That would include shutting down the largest and busiest airport in Canada. It also happens to be the second busiest international airport in the Americas.



Oh well...

MM


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## Oldgateboatdriver

mariomike said:
			
		

> Time for some gentle, good humour,
> 
> That would include shutting down the largest and busiest airport in Canada. It also happens to be the second busiest international airport in the Americas.



No idea where you get your stats from (other perhaps than the fact that being a Torontonian, you have an over inflated view of Toronto, like all of them  ;D), but Toronto hovers around being the 10th largest North American airport for passenger and around the 30th for cargo.

Both far from being second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_North_America

https://www.ttnews.com/top100/airports/2019


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## Jarnhamar

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> According to this article lock downs like Wuhan are ineffective, plus it would be a violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights.



Thanks for the read. The people in the article think lockdowns will be ineffective because they don't think there is a way to enforce it. They also say that lockdowns might be effective if there can be a way to enforce it. The Wuhan lockdown is unprecedented so hard to say what kind of impact it will actually have.  If it mitigates the spread of the disease it might be useful to look at?


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## mariomike

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> No idea where you get your stats



You seem to be looking at Domestic. My post was about International passengers.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> It also happens to be the second busiest international airport in the Americas.



International Passenger Rankings 
https://aci.aero/Data-Centre/Monthly-Traffic-Data/International-Passenger-Rankings/12-months/
International Passenger Traffic for past 12 months

12-MONTHS ENDING DEC 2015
 Last update : April 11, 2016
 International Passengers: traffic performed between the designated airport and an airport in another country/territory.

#18 NEW YORK NY, US (JFK) 

#22 TORONTO ON, CA (YYZ) 

#29 MIAMI FL, US (MIA) 

No other North American airports in the top 30 for international passenger traffic between the designated airport and an airport in another country/territory.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> That would include shutting down the largest and busiest airport in Canada.





> Toronto Pearson is Canada’s largest and busiest airport, in Canada’s largest and busiest city.
> https://web.archive.org/web/20180619113054/https://www.torontopearson.com/en/AboutPearson/#


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## Oldgateboatdriver

I am not looking at either domestic nor international travellers but to the overall, all inclusive figures. And neither did you clearly make that distinction originally.

The designation of an airport as "international' or "domestic" is relating to the fact that it receives or not passenger from outside the country and therefore, is or isn't a port of entry with Border services. Using that designation in no way means that you are referring only to the figures for international passengers unless you specify.

You have now specified and I accept both the distinction and the figures you propose as correct.


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## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lock down Toronto like they did Wuhan.



The population of Wuhan is 11.08 million (2018).

The population of China is 1.386 billion (2017). 

The population of The Greater Toronto Area is 6,417,516 ( 2016 ).

The population of Canada is 37.59 million (2019).

The reason I post the statistics above is to show by percentage of national population, it is a much greater challenge to "lock down" the GTA than Wuhan.



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Vancouver is likely highly at risk



The Greater Vancouver area is the third-largest metropolitan area in Canada. 

Lock it down too?



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I accept both the distinction and the figures you propose as correct.



Thank-you.


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## Spencer100

Just dropping this here
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it


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## Cloud Cover

Gosh I hope not.


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## brihard

I doubt it... Coronavirii are endemic to China, leaping from animals to humans via the dinner table. Occam’s razor suggests this is probably normal virus evolution and transmission.


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## mariomike

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Just dropping this here
> https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it



"By Tyler Durden"

Who is "Tyler Durden"? Is that a real person?

All I could come up with was,


> The Narrator is a fictional character appearing as both the central protagonist and antagonist of the 1996 Chuck Palahniuk novel Fight Club, its 1999 film adaptation of the same name, and the comic book Fight Club 2. The character has dissociative identity disorder, and is depicted as an unnamed everyman known as the Narrator during the day, while he becomes the chaotic and charismatic Tyler Durden at night during periods of insomnia.
> 
> In 2008, Tyler was selected by Empire magazine as the greatest movie character of all time. When the list was redone in 2015, he placed at number 8.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Narrator_(Fight_Club)


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## MilEME09

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Just dropping this here
> https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it



The source city does have a Chinese Bio pathogen research lab which opened in 2017. I have read rumors the lab is involved with the PLA to some degree which wouldn't be unlikely in China. Given Chiang's track record for hiding the truth it is very possible we are looking at a virus developed by a Chinese lab which they lost containment on.


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## tomahawk6

The CDC report I saw today is that its no different than the flu, remember to wash your hands frequently and avoid the snake burgers.


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## mariomike

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The CDC report I saw today is that its no different than the flu, remember to wash your hands frequently and avoid the snake burgers.



That's comforting.

But, just in case the situation worsens, I kept my N95 stockpile from SARS. Gloves and gowns too. 

Might be time for a mid-winter Muskoka vacation. But, our neighbourhood already has the natural boundaries of a lake, a river and a pond. 

Incidentally, if interested,

#coronavirustoronto


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## Haggis

A grandchild asked me why a virus that allegedly originated in China be named after a Mexican beer?


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## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> A grandchild asked me why a virus that allegedly originated in China be named after a Mexican beer?



That's what happens when you get stuck naming a new virus on a rough Monday morning.


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## The Bread Guy

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Just dropping this here
> https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it


To use a stats analogy, correlation =/= causality.  There's a pretty big military chem lab near where these folks were poisoned, so how much does that increase the odds that something leaked out of that facility to poison them?  

Never say never, and it's interesting dots being connected, but I'll wait until someone other than this source connects the dots to trust the conclusion more. I've been wrong before, and happy to be again.


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## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jan/26/coronavirus-link-china-biowarfare-program-possible/

Something relating to bio-weapon. How did it escape is what I'm wondering.


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## mariomike

NYC using "secret shoppers" who masquerade as infected patients to constantly test the ability of hospitals and paramedics to identify a coronavirus patient within 5 to 10 minutes of presentation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/ny-officials-detail-ways-city-is-preparing-for-coronavirus-20200125-ithoxxpdyfddvbhib4ce4jmpvy-story.html


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## macarena

Haggis said:
			
		

> A grandchild asked me why a virus that allegedly originated in China be named after a Mexican beer?



Seems this chinese corona virus is a variation of former corona viruses, and the first having come from spanish spoken place. If im not wrong, corona means 'crown' in spanish. The name must have been given from the visual appearance of the virus.

And, as to provide sequence to the humour... well.. is not too soon to that grandchild to show a vastness knowledge about beer brands?  :nod:


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## Blackadder1916

macarena said:
			
		

> . . . first having come from spanish spoken place. If im not wrong, corona means 'crown' in spanish.  . . .



It's not Spanish, it's Latin.

Not to be pedantic, (_hell, of course I'm pedantic_) but, the scientific naming of things is usually based on Latin so that the terms are common across all language.  Corōna is the Latin word for crown.

Don't they teach Latin and Greek in primary school anymore?  :tsktsk:


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## OldSolduer

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Don't they teach Latin and Greek in primary school anymore?  :tsktsk:



They don't teach any language  :not-again:


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## Haggis

macarena said:
			
		

> …. is not too soon to that grandchild to show a vastness knowledge about beer brands?  :nod:



I blame television.


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## tomahawk6

The death toll in China is at 80. The virus spreads during incubation so that's concerning. 

https://www.foxnews.com/health/dr-oz-coronavirus-outbreak-chinese-leaders-alarming


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## Civvymedic

I worked in the GTA as a front line Paramedic during SARS, and I still do. This one is being watched closely for many reasons obviously but particularly the way it spreads is concerning. SARS did weird things too and I remember some people were suspected of being "super spreaders" and it was living in different places for varying times. We did a good job of dealing with it through PPE, isolation, avoiding certain types of airway procedures and other work but it was tough and we lost people. Looks like we have 2 confirmed cases in the GTA, 19 suspect awaiting testing and I suspect at least another Canadian city will see cases as well. I think this time we are further ahead, especially with screening and PPE but it will get interesting.


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## mariomike

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> I worked in the GTA as a front line Paramedic during SARS, and I still do.



In Toronto, during SARS, of our 850 paramedics, we had 1,166 potential SARS exposures. 

Not sure if you were quarantined ( many of us were ), but if you don't mind me asking, did / does your municipality have this for their paramedics?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/131801/post-1595644.html#msg1595644

I retired a long time ago, but it is still in effect in TO.

Good luck with coronavirus, and stay safe!


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## Civvymedic

We do indeed. A lot of good things to go forward came out of the SARS experience including better CBA language but also screening, PPE use etc. Hope this time goes better....


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## mariomike

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> Hope this time goes better....



Hope so too...

During SARS, our mayor, Mel Lastman ( of "Bad Boy" furniture and appliances fame and fortune ), did an interview on CNN. When asked what the World Health Organization was doing about the crisis, Mel replied, "They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before."   
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/lastman-lashes-out-at-who/article1161040/

Maybe when we put this one behind us, the city will have the 2020 version of the 2003 SARS-Stock: "Estimated to have between 450,000 and 500,000 people attending the concert, it is the largest outdoor ticketed event in Canadian history, and one of the largest in North American history."
https://web.archive.org/web/20090727191619/http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sarsbenefit/

They can call it, "Coronafest."   



I know this man. He was big and strong and energetic. The highlighted part is important. 

I'm not sure if any of our SARS survivors ever recovered enough to return to 9-1-1 operations.



> CBC
> Jan 28, 2020
> 
> SARS survivor, retired paramedic warns front-line workers need protection against coronavirus
> 
> Severe chills. Aches and pains. Full-body weakness.
> 
> Bruce England says those intense symptoms began one night in 2003 after he'd wrapped up a shift as a Toronto paramedic.
> 
> "I couldn't get out of bed, I couldn't lift my head. I couldn't go to the washroom," he recalled. "I just didn't have the strength. It was like being hit by a two-by-four and not being able to move."
> 
> England called his team to report his sudden illness. Soon after, he says two fellow paramedics arrived at his home in full protective suits to take him to a hospital — where he was whisked right into an isolation room.
> 
> England spent two weeks recovering in hospital and another month at home, but still felt unwell after he returned to work, and eventually shifted out of his front-line duties to work in Toronto's office of emergency management.
> 
> Close to two decades later, England said he still has trouble breathing and experiences numbness in his hands and feet — lingering reminders of his brush with a deadly illness.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sars-survivor-retired-paramedic-warns-front-line-workers-need-protection-against-coronavirus-1.5441953


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## NavyShooter

From the SITREP 7 update from the WHO:

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200127-sitrep-7-2019--ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=98ef79f5_2



> Among the 37 cases identified outside of China, three were detected without the onset of symptoms, while among the remaining 34 patients, there is information on date of symptom for 28 individuals. The epidemic curve for these individuals is shown in Figure 2.
> 
> The median age of cases detected outside of China is 45 years ranging from2 to 74 years, 71% of cases were male (information was missing on age for 6 cases, and on sex for 4 cases). Of the 27 cases for whom we have detailed information on date of symptom onset and travel date from China, 8 cases had symptom onset in China, 5 had onset on the same day as travel, and 14 developed symptoms after leaving China.
> 
> _*36 cases had travel history to China, of whom 34 had travel history in Wuhan city, or had an epidemiological link to a confirmed case with travel history to Wuhan. *_For the remaining two, investigations into their travel histories are ongoing. One additional case was the result of human-to-human transmission among close family contacts in Viet Nam.



Emphasis mine...a very interesting point.  Of 37 international cases, 34 were in Wuhan...

Leaves me to ponder if this infection is more difficult to spread, or if the latency period is lining us up for a second wave in a few days as it incubates?


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## mariomike

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> if the latency period is lining us up for a second wave in a few days as it incubates?



From the post above,


> caught his illness from a patient in a hospital about two weeks before his symptoms showed up.


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## Retired AF Guy

Found this article yesterday from Wired.com that states a Canadian company using AI was able to predict the coronovirus outbreak before the CDC or WHO were able to.



> An AI Epidemiologist Sent the First Warnings of the Wuhan Virus
> 
> Eric Niiler
> Science
> 01.25.2020 07:00 AM
> 
> The BlueDot algorithm scours news reports and airline ticketing data to predict the spread of diseases like those linked to the flu outbreak in China.
> 
> On January 9, the World Health Organization notified the public of a flu-like outbreak in China: a cluster of pneumonia cases had been reported in Wuhan, possibly from vendors’ exposure to live animals at the Huanan Seafood Market. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had gotten the word out a few days earlier, on January 6. But a Canadian health monitoring platform had beaten them both to the punch, sending word of the outbreak to its customers on December 31.
> 
> BlueDot uses an AI-driven algorithm that scours foreign-language news reports, animal and plant disease networks, and official proclamations to give its clients advance warning to avoid danger zones like Wuhan.
> 
> Speed matters during an outbreak, and tight-lipped Chinese officials do not have a good track record of sharing information about diseases, air pollution, or natural disasters. But public health officials at WHO and the CDC have to rely on these very same health officials for their own disease monitoring. So maybe an AI can get there faster. “We know that governments may not be relied upon to provide information in a timely fashion,” says Kamran Khan, BlueDot’s founder and CEO. “We can pick up news of possible outbreaks, little murmurs or forums or blogs of indications of some kind of unusual events going on.”
> 
> Khan says the algorithm doesn’t use social media postings because that data is too messy. But he does have one trick up his sleeve: access to global airline ticketing data that can help predict where and when infected residents are headed next. It correctly predicted that the virus would jump from Wuhan to Bangkok, Seoul, Taipei, and Tokyo in the days following its initial appearance.
> 
> Khan, who was working as a hospital infectious disease specialist in Toronto during the SARS epidemic of 2003, dreamt of finding a better way to track diseases. That virus started in provincial China and spread to Hong Kong and then to Toronto, where it killed 44 people. “There’s a bit of deja vu right now,” Khan says about the coronavirus outbreak today. “In 2003, I watched the virus overwhelm the city and cripple the hospital. There was an enormous amount of mental and physical fatigue, and I thought, ‘Let’s not do this again.’”
> 
> After testing out several predictive programs, Khan launched BlueDot in 2014 and raised $9.4 million in venture capital funding. The company now has 40 employees—physicians and programmers who devise the disease surveillance analytic program, which uses natural-language processing and machine learning techniques to sift through news reports in 65 languages, along with airline data and reports of animal disease outbreaks. “What we have done is use natural language processing and machine learning to train this engine to recognize whether this is an outbreak of anthrax in Mongolia versus a reunion of the heavy metal band Anthrax,” Kahn says.
> 
> Once the automated data-sifting is complete, human analysis takes over, Khan says. Epidemiologists check that the conclusions make sense from a scientific standpoint, and then a report is sent to government, business, and public health clients.
> 
> BlueDot’s reports are then sent to public health officials in a dozen countries (including the US and Canada), airlines, and frontline hospitals where infected patients might end up. BlueDot doesn’t sell their data to the general public, but they are working on it, Khan says.
> 
> The firm isn’t the first to look for an end-run around public health officials, but they are hoping to do better than Google Flu Trends, which was euthanized after underestimating the severity of the 2013 flu season by 140 percent. BlueDot successfully predicted the location of the Zika outbreak in South Florida in a publication in the British medical journal The Lancet.
> 
> Whether BlueDot proves as successful this time remains to be seen. But in the meantime, some public health experts say that despite covering up the SARS outbreak for months in 2002, Chinese officials have reacted faster this time.
> 
> “The outbreak is probably a lot bigger than one the public health officials have confirmation of,” says James Lawler, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Nebraska Medical Center, who treated quarantined Ebola patients in 2017 and 2018. “Just using a back-of-the-envelope calculation on how many travelers there are from China in a given week, and percentage than might have been affected, it’s a lot.”
> 
> An area containing eight cities and 35 million people have now been quarantined in China, The New York Times reported Friday, while The Wall Street Journal reports that hospitals in the epicenter of Wuhan are turning away patients and medical supplies such as masks and sanitizers have run out.
> 
> Lawler and others say that the coronavirus outbreak will continue to spread as travelers from China to other nations exhibit symptoms of infection. He says we still don’t know how many people will get sick, and how many of those will die before the outbreak recedes.
> 
> To stop the spread of disease, public health officials will need to tell the truth and tell it quickly. But in the meantime, it might be worth deputizing an AI-driven epidemiologist.



Link


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## Colin Parkinson

First suspected case in Vancouver


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## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lock down Toronto like they did Wuhan.





			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> First suspected case in Vancouver



GVA is the third-largest metropolitan area in Canada. Lock it down too?


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## brihard

Vancouver getting hit is inevitable. Tons of regular back and forth from China.


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## BDTyre

I have the solution people!  :nod:
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/vancouver-news/traveling-containers-heads-yvr-photos-2054517


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## The Bread Guy

Point ...


			
				Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Just dropping this here
> https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-steal-coronavirus-canada-and-weaponize-it


... counterpoint (1), ...


> ... A Zero Hedge story claims that Chinese agents stole coronavirus samples from Canada to create a biological weapon, which has now caused an outbreak of the disease around the world.
> 
> A Chinese scientist who worked in a Canadian lab studying coronaviruses is under investigation for trips she took to Wuhan. But there’s no evidence she gave China coronavirus samples to develop a biological weapon. Plus, the lab worked on MERS, not the Wuhan coronavirus. The Wuhan lab mentioned in the story does deal with dangerous pathogens like coronaviruses, but there is no evidence that it is the source of the latest outbreak.
> 
> The story lacks evidence for its headline, so we rate it False.


... and counterpoint (2):


> The Public Health Agency of Canada is denying any connection between the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg, two scientists who were escorted out of the building last summer, and the coronavirus outbreak in China ...


Let's see who else connects those dots & how.


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## tomahawk6

Canada will be prohibiting flights between China and Canada , if the government fails to act then the virus might become an epidemic. I wonder why the US hasn't already taken that step ?


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## CBH99

I thought about that the other day too T6, before the Government of Canada made that decision.

I don't think that will really help anything though.  It's just as easy for mainland Chinese to fly to Europe, and from Europe to North America - as it is direct.  Not to mention indirect flights via Canada or the US, with the final destination being Canada or the US.

It might help delay the spread of the virus, but wouldn't ultimately prevent it from coming here.


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## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I wonder why the US hasn't already taken that step ?


Looks like they're still considering the idea without having thrown the switch yet ...

_*“White House Mulls Suspending All Flights To and From China Due to Coronavirus Outbreak – Report”*_ (Russian state media)
_*“White House holds off on suspending China-U.S. flights amid virus outbreak”* (Reuters, via Toronto Sun)_
_*“White House did not ask for a suspension of U.S.-China flights: official”*_ (Reuters)
_*"White House considers ban on flights to China amid coronavirus outbreak"*_ (USA Today)
Right now, airlines seem to be making ad-hoc decisions on coming & going.


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## mariomike

In the news,



> New coronavirus cases in China top SARS as evacuations begin
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/new-coronavirus-cases-in-china-top-sars-as-evacuations-begin-1.4787915#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=KZGpuTO
> a new virus that has now infected more people in China than were sickened in the country by SARS.


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## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Let's see who else connects those dots & how.


_National Post_'s take ....


> In a table-top pandemic exercise at Johns Hopkins University last year, a pathogen based on the emerging Nipah virus was released by fictional extremists, killing 150 million people.
> 
> A less apocalyptic scenario mapped out by a blue-ribbon U.S. panel envisioned Nipah being dispersed by terrorists and claiming over 6,000 American lives.
> 
> Scientists from Canada’s National Microbiology Laboratory (NML) have also said the highly lethal bug is a potential bio-weapon.
> 
> But this March that same lab shipped samples of the henipavirus family and of Ebola to China, which has long been suspected of running a secretive biological warfare (BW) program.
> 
> China strongly denies it makes germ weapons, and Canadian officials say the shipment was part of its efforts to support public-health research worldwide. Sharing of such samples internationally is relatively standard practice.
> 
> But some experts are raising questions about the March transfer, which appears to be at the centre of a shadowy RCMP investigation and dismissal of a top scientist at the Winnipeg-based NML.
> 
> “I would say this Canadian ‘contribution’ might likely be counterproductive,” said Dany Shoham, a biological and chemical warfare expert at Israel’s Bar-Ilan University. “I think the Chinese activities … are highly suspicious, in terms of exploring (at least) those viruses as BW agents. “
> 
> James Giordano, a neurology professor at Georgetown University and senior fellow in biowarfare at the U.S. Special Operations Command, said it’s worrisome on a few fronts.
> 
> China’s growing investment in bio-science, looser ethics around gene-editing and other cutting-edge technology and integration between government and academia raise the spectre of such pathogens being weaponized, he said.
> 
> That could mean an offensive agent, or a modified germ let loose by proxies, for which only China has the treatment or vaccine, said Giordano, co-head of Georgetown’s Brain Science and Global Law and Policy Program ...


Hmmm ...


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## The Bread Guy

More on problems @ the Chinese end ...


> Yang Zhongyi was still waiting on Monday for a coronavirus test in the Chinese city of Wuhan two weeks after she started to show signs of a fever, even though doctors privately told her family that she almost certainly has been infected, her son Zhang Changchun told Reuters.
> 
> Yang, 53, is just one of many Wuhan inhabitants finding it difficult to get tested or receive treatment for the new form of coronavirus, which authorities say has infected 2,800 people and killed at least 80 in China, a situation that may be contributing to the spread of the disease.
> 
> Yang has been unable to gain full-time admission to a hospital, her son said. She has been put on drips in unquarantined areas at four separate hospitals in the city to treat her deteriorating lungs, he said, while he is doing what he can to get her tested or admitted full-time.
> 
> “My brother and I have been queuing at the hospital every day. We go at 6 and 7 in the morning, and queue for the whole day, but we don’t get any new answers,” Zhang told Reuters. “Every time the responses are the same: ‘There’s no bed, wait for the government to give a notice, and follow the news to see what’s going on.’ The doctors are all very frustrated too.” ...


More from Reuters here.


> s far as I know, trying to contain a city of 11 million people is new to science.” This was how Dr. Gauden Galea, the World Health Organization’s country representative in China, described the situation facing the city of Wuhan when asked late last week for his update on the coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> It was clear from Galea’s remarks that the total containment of Wuhan, the city where I have lived for the past few decades, was not a course of action the WHO had recommended. Nor did the organization have any clear view on whether such an action would prove effective in limiting the spread of the disease. “It has not been tried before as a public health measure,” he said, “so we cannot at this stage say it will or will not work.”
> 
> I am now one of 11 million people in Wuhan who are living through this grand experiment, a measure that, Galea also said, shows “a very strong public health commitment and a willingness to take dramatic action.” From inside the curtain that now encloses my city, I wish to offer my thoughts on this “dramatic action,” and to judge what we have actually seen and experienced in terms of commitment to public health.
> 
> ( ... )
> 
> Everyone must understand, first of all, that this epidemic was allowed to spread for a period of more than forty days before any of the abovementioned cities were closed off, or any decisive action taken. In fact, if we look at the main efforts undertaken by the leadership, and by provincial and city governments in particular, these were focused mostly not on the containment of the epidemic itself, but on the containment and suppression of information about the disease.
> 
> The early suppression of news about the epidemic is now fairly common knowledge among Chinese, and many people view this failure to grapple openly with the outbreak as the chief reason why it was later seen as necessary to take the “dramatic action” of closing down my city and many others ...


More from a media watchdog site here.

Meanwhile ...

_*"A federal lab has confirmed the earlier finding of a second case of the 2019 novel coronavirus in Toronto, while Ontario public health officials are investigating 23 other people for possible infection ..."*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"Canadian retailers, other businesses start eyeing contingency plans in case of coronavirus outbreak"*_ (_Financial Post_)
_*"Canada cuts consular staff in China amid coronavirus outbreak"*_ (CBC.ca)
_*"Canadians stuck in China's coronavirus quarantine zones look for Canada's help to return home"*_ (_The Province_)


----------



## tomahawk6

US evacuee's from China were flown to a Reserve air base in California.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/flight-with-americans-evacuated-from-china-over-coronavirus-lands-at-military-base-in-california/ar-BBZruaX?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest ...


> The Canadian government is putting together a plan to evacuate Canadian citizens in China as the novel coronavirus continues to spread.
> 
> Speaking with reporters from Parliament Hill on Wednesday, Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne said the government is working out the logistics as to how and when to bring home Canadians who want help leaving the country, and has a plane lined up to do so.
> 
> “We have secured an aircraft that could bring those Canadians who wish to leave back to Canada,” said Champagne, adding he could not say whether any of the 160 Canadians in China who have now requested consular assistance are displaying symptoms of the virus.
> 
> The announcement came as the government issued an updated travel advisory for China, urging Canadians to avoid all non-essential travel to the country. A more strict advisory is in place for the province of Hubei, where the government has said to avoid all travel.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Health Minister Patty Hajdu also spoke with reporters at the same scrum and faced questions on whether any Canadians evacuated from China will be quarantined or put in isolation, or if they will be allowed to board the plane if they have symptoms.
> 
> “Part of the process now is figuring out what our protocols will be when we return Canadians who wish to come home,” she said.
> 
> “Will people be allowed to come back if they’re sick? These are the conversations we’re having.” ...


----------



## tomahawk6

Any remote former military facilities available ? Or maybe piggy back onto US facilities ? After quarantine the people can then be transported to Canada.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Goose bay?


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> ... Or maybe piggy back onto US facilities ? ...


If I had to bet a loonie, I _suspect_ the U.S. wouldn't be keen to bring in more potentially sick & contagious migrants quarantine cases than they already have to with their 10x bigger overall population to worry about.


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Goose bay?


Never say never ...  I'll be interested to see where the returning folks end up.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Colin P said:
			
		

> Goose bay?



You're being facetious, aren't you?

While T6 raised the question of "remote" military facilities, there is a difference between isolatable (I made that word up) and inaccessible.  Goose Bay may be remote, it may still have some physical facilities able to house returnees, it may be able to be expanded to accommodate an increased CAF population necessary to support such an operation, but what it doesn't have is any of the services that the CAF can't provide, mainly the hospitalization and specialized laboratory facilities that would be required if any of the persons developed symptoms.


----------



## mariomike

> Inside the house that SARS built: How outbreak helped prepare Toronto hospital for coronavirus
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/coronavirus-toronto-1.5443771
> From negative pressure rooms to a specialized garage, Humber River Hospital is designed for outbreaks
> 
> Humber is the only hospital in North America that boasts almost entirely fresh air, with no recirculating air or rebreathing (inhaling previously exhaled air or gases) outside of these rooms.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> GVA is the third-largest metropolitan area in Canada. Lock it down too?



Yup. Lock down the second largest metropolitan area just to be sure too.

Lock it _allllllll _down.

But especially Toronto


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> But especially Toronto



You seem obsessed with Toronto.


----------



## Cloud Cover

mariomike said:
			
		

> You seem obsessed with Toronto.



We The North.  :rofl:


----------



## mariomike

CloudCover said:
			
		

> We The North.  :rofl:



In a league in which 29 of the 30 franchises are located in the U.S., the Raptors represent the hopes not just of a city, but an entire nation.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> You seem obsessed with Toronto.



Anything is possible.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ...

_*"Ottawa secures plane to evacuate Canadians from China, warns against all travel to country"*_ (Global News)
_*"More airlines follow suit as Air Canada suspends flights to China over coronavirus"*_ (Global News)
_*"Lab confirms B.C. case of new coronavirus, bringing total to 3 in Canada"*_ (The Canadian Press via _Calgary Sun_)
_*"At least a year before coronavirus vaccine is developed: Canada’s public health chief"*_ (The Canadian Press via Global News)
_*"Xi orders military to contribute to winning battle against epidemic"*_ (CHN military media)
_*"PLA gives full support to civil efforts to win anti-virus battle"*_ (CHN military media)
Also, here's a map/dashboard Johns Hopkins University has set up showing cases around the world.


----------



## mariomike

In the news,



> Wilbur Ross says coronavirus could bring jobs back to the U.S. from China
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNQIs4dBYf58kzfEMvSusaGuxe6XgA%3A1580403173220&ei=5QkzXpmQDZf0tAafmY3QAw&q=%22wilbur+ross%22+coronavirus&oq=%22wilbur+ross%22+coronavirus&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..63925...1.0..0.153.276.0j2......0......gws-wiz.onnOXmJzyho&ved=0ahUKEwjZlvfN5KvnAhUXOs0KHZ9MAzoQ4dUDCAo#spf=1580403242435


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I highly recommend this blog for people interested in going on's in China https://www.chinalawblog.com/2020/01/chinas-coronavirus-impacts-everything-what-your-business-should-do-now.html?utm_source=Dan+Harris+-+China+Law+Blog&utm_campaign=eb0a3d214e-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_39bc6c6bdc-eb0a3d214e-76043389


----------



## BDTyre

I don't think this has been posted yet, but Johns Hopkins has done a live map for the outbreak. It's supposed to update automatically every few minutes but I've found I've needed to refresh it myself sometimes.
https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## tomahawk6

First US case of person to person transmission.Death toll in China is at 170 plus. Looking to me like a replay of SARS. Watching the local news last night and they said flu shots are helpful and even better might be pneumonia shots. I had both last fall so I feel somewhat safe and no more visits to my favorite Chinese place.  That last might be over the top but who knows ?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-reports-1st-case-of-person-to-person-spread-of-new-virus/ar-BBZuro0?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the USAF info-machine with a little bit on how the U.S. military is helping deal with what appears to be at least mostly American diplomats & their families just  evacuated ...


> *Air Force Reserve supports repatriation efforts at March Air Reserve Base*
> By Linda Welz, 452nd Air Mobility Wing Public Affairs / Published January 30, 2020
> 
> March Air Reserve Base, Calif. (AFNS) -- A chartered aircraft carrying 210 U.S. citizen evacuees from Wuhan, China, arrived today at March Air Reserve Base, California, after refueling in Anchorage, Alaska, where passengers received two medical screenings by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> Every passenger on board also received two screenings in China before departing, another upon arrival here, and they will continue to be screened throughout a voluntary, 3- to 14-day quarantine period here.
> 
> With less than a 24-hour notice, Team March spun into action, along with several federal, state, county and local agencies, to prepare a well-deserved welcome to the weary, U.S. diplomats and their families.
> 
> “One of the diplomats told me that he understands the work that Team March and the other agencies did to put this all together with such short notice, and is thankful for everything being done to welcome them and make them feel comfortable,” said Oliver Freeman, Airman and Family Readiness, 452nd Force Support Squadron. “He said he was especially happy that there were toys, coloring books, puzzles and games handed out to the children so their parents could focus on getting through the screening process and checking into their rooms,” Freeman said. “It felt good to be part of that teamwork.”
> 
> Riverside County Emergency Management, who is part of the overall team, coordinates with other county departments to bring together all the local civilian players. Working on logistics with local partners to make everyone aware of what’s going on is the job of Shane Reichardt, Senior Public Information Specialist, County of Riverside Emergency Management Department job. He said he shares the information so that all the needs identified can be met.
> 
> “We work together all the time and we train for stuff like this so it’s gone very well,” Reichardt said. “We are very fortunate to have a close-knit county family which makes it easier to call our counterparts from different departments and get the information that we are looking for, identify a need and get multiple people working toward getting the resources to fill that need.”
> 
> Having exercised with and worked real-world events with Reichardt’s departments, Team March integrated its assets seamlessly into the process as they have done many times before.
> 
> “The challenges have been minimal during this event,” said Jose Arballo Jr., Senior Public Information Specialist, Riverside University Health System-Public Health. “The team at March has gone out of its way to be hospitable and the folks at the CDC have been a pleasure to work with,” Arballo said. “We are working together in a collaborative fashion.”
> 
> “At CDC, we’re here to support our state, local and sister federal agencies. We’ve been working together seamlessly, (and) very hard these last few days,” said Dr. Chris Braden, Deputy Director of the National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases and CDC spokesperson. “The county and the Air Force Reserve have done a suburb job in standing up really rapidly to receive our fellow citizens that we care so much about.”
> 
> “We are…taking all precautions to ensure both the passengers and our residents are safe,” said Supervisor Jeff Hewitt, County of Riverside, Fifth District. “This is a very large response that involves many federal, state and county agencies. We are proud to have March Air Reserve Base in our backyard where we have the necessary resources to get this job done, to have this flight land here where we can welcome our U.S. citizens back home after a long arduous flight, and make sure they are well before they head back to their homes.”
> 
> The Defense Department will work closely with its interagency partners and monitor the situation closely. The Department’s primary responsibility at this time is the safety of its force, its families, and its base communities.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

WHO declares the latest coronavirus outbreak a world health crisis.



> The coronavirus outbreak is now a global health emergency, WHO says
> 
> With more than 8,000 cases in at least 20 countries, the agency called for a coordinated international response.
> 
> By Julia Belluz@juliaoftorontojulia.belluz@voxmedia.com Jan 30, 2020, 2:44pm EST
> 
> The World Health Organization has declared the outbreak of the new coronavirus rapidly spreading quickly across China a global health emergency — a rare designation the agency gives disease threats that pose an international risk.
> 
> The decision Thursday came as the number of people diagnosed with the 2019-nCoV virus had skyrocketed to more than 8,200, surpassing the SARS case toll. There are also now people in at least 19 other countries with the virus.
> 
> “Over the past few weeks we have witnessed the emergence of a previously unknown pathogen which has escalated into an unprecedented outbreak and which has been met by an unprecedented response,” WHO’s director general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, said.
> 
> Just a week ago, Dr. Tedros, as he’s known, said the agency considered the formal “public health emergency of international concern,” or PHEIC, declaration, premature.
> 
> _.@WHO is working closely with all countries to control the new #coronavirus outbreak. Person-to-person transmission has been seen in at least 3 countries outside #China – Japan , Vietnam & Germany - and the cooperation and info-sharing has been very good.
> — Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus (@DrTedros) January 30, 2020 _
> 
> But since then, the situation has changed dramatically, and there’s now evidence of person-to-person spread of the virus happening outside China, including in the US.
> 
> This is the sixth time the WHO has declared a public health emergency
> 
> Formally, a PHEIC — pronounced “fake” — is defined as “an extraordinary event which is determined to constitute a public health risk to other States through the international spread of disease and to potentially require a coordinated international response.”
> 
> In reality, it’s a political tool the WHO can use to draw attention to a serious disease that has caught the world off guard and put people’s health in danger. It’s meant to engage the global community in a coordinated outbreak response, galvanize resources, and stop the disease from spreading further across borders.
> 
> Before today, the WHO had only declared a public health emergency five times since the International Health Regulations, which govern global health emergency responses, were enacted in 2007.
> 
> Several global health experts have been calling for the WHO to reconsider its decision about the novel coronavirus since last week. “It’s long overdue, and it should have happened Monday,” Devi Sridhar, professor and chair of Global Public Health at the University of Edinburgh, told Vox.
> 
> “This is an international emergency,” said Tom Frieden, the former director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “A PHEIC allows [the WHO] to further lean into the role of global leadership for governments and the private sector.”
> 
> The outbreak was first reported to the WHO by Chinese officials a month ago, on December 31. It appears to have originated in Wuhan, a city of 11 million in Hubei province. At that point, cases centered on Wuhan’s Huanan South China Seafood Market and the leading hypothesis was that the virus was spreading directly from animals to humans there.
> 
> Today, the outbreak has spread beyond that — and around the world. Sridhar pointed out that one of the reasons the WHO pauses before triggering a PHEIC is because of the economic fallout international attention on a disease threat can bring.
> 
> According to Reuters, the global economic losses from the 2003 SARS outbreak totaled $40 billion, and the world’s gross domestic product “suffered a 0.1% hit due to the outbreak.”
> 
> But in the past week, countries have sealed their borders to China, issued travel advisories, and started repatriating citizens. Australia took the extraordinary measure of sending returning citizens from Wuhan, the center of China’s outbreak, to a remote island 1,200 miles off the coast of the mainland. Meanwhile, numerous airlines — including British Airways — announced they would suspend travel to the country.
> 
> “Right now we need some guidance,” Sridhar added. “Everyone has been waiting for the WHO. The world is moving on with or without the WHO.”
> The outbreak is still centered on mainland China
> 
> At the same time, it’s important to remember the outbreak is still heavily centered on mainland China. Of the 8,235 confirmed cases, 8,124 have been found in mainland China — and more than half of those in Hubei province.
> 
> There’s also a lot to learn about 2019-nCoV, including how deadly it is. In humans, coronaviruses can lead to symptoms that range from the common cold to severe pneumonia and death in the case of SARS and MERS. It’s not yet clear where 2019-nCoV falls on that spectrum, and it’ll be weeks before researchers have a clearer picture. But we do know that in addition to the 171 deaths the virus has caused, there have been many reports of people with very mild symptoms. There’s also evidence of asymptomatic cases.
> 
> It’s possible that as we learn more, 2019-nCoV will look more like the common cold than like SARS. That’s because infectious diseases typically look more severe when they’re first discovered, since the people showing up in hospitals tend to be the sickest. Once more of these mild or asymptomatic cases are discovered, this virus could wind up looking a lot less scary. (For more on that, see this Vox explainer.)
> 
> “We live [with] and tolerate a whole lot of respiratory viruses,” said Jennifer Nuzzo, senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, “some of which are even more transmissible than the estimates people have come out for this one — but they don’t make the headlines,” like the common cold. If the new coronavirus winds up looking less severe, “We may be moving away from containing the virus as a goal to one of minimizing its spread,” Nuzzo added.



 Link


----------



## Spencer100

Global health emergency by WHO


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51318246

Funny part it's not because of what is happening in China' But because of other countries.   Must save face of the CCP.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding social media then ( 2003 ) and now,



> I experienced anti-Chinese racism during SARS. But with coronavirus scare, social media makes it so much worse
> https://www.ourwindsor.ca/opinion-story/9835031-i-experienced-anti-chinese-racism-during-sars-but-with-coronavirus-scare-social-media-makes-it-so-much-worse/
> But now, more than 15 years later, it seems that the lessons we had hoped to learn haven’t been resolved and are rather amplified by our digital world.



Maybe some good news?



> It’s possible that as we learn more, 2019-nCoV will look more like the common cold than like SARS.
> https://www.vox.com/2020/1/30/21076686/coronavirus-outbreak-wuhan-china-who-emergency


----------



## The Bread Guy

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> WHO declares the latest coronavirus outbreak a world health crisis.
> 
> Link


This from the WHO DG, via their info-machine ...


> Good evening to everyone in the room, and to everyone online.
> 
> Over the past few weeks, we have witnessed the emergence of a previously unknown pathogen, which has escalated into an unprecedented outbreak, and which has been met by an unprecedented response.
> 
> As I have said repeatedly since my return from Beijing, the Chinese government is to be congratulated for the extraordinary measures it has taken to contain the outbreak, despite the severe social and economic impact those measures are having on the Chinese people.
> 
> We would have seen many more cases outside China by now – and probably deaths – if it were not for the government’s efforts, and the progress they have made to protect their own people and the people of the world.
> 
> The speed with which China detected the outbreak, isolated the virus, sequenced the genome and shared it with WHO and the world are very impressive, and beyond words. So is China’s commitment to transparency and to supporting other countries.
> 
> In many ways, China is actually setting a new standard for outbreak response. It’s not an exaggeration.
> 
> I also offer my profound respect and thanks to the thousands of brave health professionals and all frontline responders, who in the midst of the Spring Festival, are working 24/7 to treat the sick, save lives and bring this outbreak under control.
> 
> Thanks to their efforts, the number of cases in the rest of the world so far has remained relatively small.
> 
> There are now 98 cases in 18 countries outside China, including 8 cases of human-to-human transmission in four countries: Germany, Japan, Viet Nam and the United States of America.
> 
> So far we have not seen any deaths outside China, for which we must all be grateful. Although these numbers are still relatively small compared to the number of cases in China, we must all act together now to limit further spread.
> 
> The vast majority of cases outside China have a travel history to Wuhan, or contact with someone with a travel history to Wuhan.
> 
> We don’t know what sort of damage this virus could do if it were to spread in a country with a weaker health system.
> 
> We must act now to help countries prepare for that possibility.
> 
> For all of these reasons, I am declaring a public health emergency of international concern over the global outbreak of novel coronavirus.
> 
> The main reason for this declaration is not because of what is happening in China, but because of what is happening in other countries.
> 
> Our greatest concern is the potential for the virus to spread to countries with weaker health systems, and which are ill-prepared to deal with it.
> 
> Let me be clear: this declaration is not a vote of no confidence in China. On the contrary, WHO continues to have confidence in China’s capacity to control the outbreak.
> 
> As you know, I was in China just a few days ago, where I met with President Xi Jinping. I left in absolutely no doubt about China’s commitment to transparency, and to protecting the world’s people.
> 
> To the people of China and to all of those around the world who have been affected by this outbreak, we want you to know that the world stands with you. We are working diligently with national and international public health partners to bring this outbreak under control as fast as possible.
> 
> In total, there are now 7834 confirmed cases, including 7736 in China, representing almost 99% of all reported cases worldwide. 170 people have lost their lives to this outbreak, all of them in China.
> 
> We must remember that these are people, not numbers.
> 
> More important than the declaration of a public health emergency are the committee’s recommendations for preventing the spread of the virus and ensuring a measured and evidence-based response.
> 
> I would like to summarize those recommendations in seven key areas.
> 
> First, there is no reason for measures that unnecessarily interfere with international travel and trade. WHO doesn’t recommend limiting trade and movement.
> 
> We call on all countries to implement decisions that are evidence-based and consistent. WHO stands ready to provide advice to any country that is considering which measures to take.
> 
> Second, we must support countries with weaker health systems.
> 
> Third, accelerate the development of vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics.
> 
> Fourth, combat the spread of rumours and misinformation.
> 
> Fifth, review preparedness plans, identify gaps and evaluate the resources needed to identify, isolate and care for cases, and prevent transmission.
> 
> Sixth, share data, knowledge and experience with WHO and the world.
> 
> And seventh, the only way we will defeat this outbreak is for all countries to work together in a spirit of solidarity and cooperation. We are all in this together, and we can only stop it together.
> 
> This is the time for facts, not fear.
> 
> This is the time for science, not rumours.
> 
> This is the time for solidarity, not stigma.
> 
> Thank you.


A bit more technical detail in the attached meeting summary.


----------



## CBH99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTYfke545vI


Puts into perspective how much hype and fear mongering the media really generates.

Information is good.  Biased or sensationalized information can be dangerous.


----------



## Furniture

mariomike said:
			
		

> In a league in which 29 of the 30 franchises are located in the U.S., the Raptors represent the hopes not just of a city, but an entire nation.



Just like the Leafs are Canada's team... 

When you wonder why the rest of Canada dislikes Toronto, please reference back to the pretentiousness of this post.


----------



## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> First US case of person to person transmission.Death toll in China is at 170 plus. Looking to me like a replay of SARS. Watching the local news last night and they said flu shots are helpful and even better might be pneumonia shots. I had both last fall so I feel somewhat safe and no more visits to my favorite Chinese place.  That last might be over the top but who knows ?
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-reports-1st-case-of-person-to-person-spread-of-new-virus/ar-BBZuro0?ocid=spartanntp&pfr=1



Whoa... wait a minute, are you proposing that we VACCINATE everyone? If you want riots in the Snowflake-hoods ....


----------



## mariomike

Furniture said:
			
		

> When you wonder why the rest of Canada dislikes Toronto, please reference back to the pretentiousness of this post.



My reply is here,
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/119520/post-1596150.html#msg1596150


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Information is good.  Biased or sensationalized information can be dangerous.


But calm sharing of detailed info =/= clicks/eyes on/attention caught


----------



## ModlrMike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Whoa... wait a minute, are you proposing that we VACCINATE everyone? If you want riots in the Snowflake-hoods ....



We could have them wear water bottles on their heads instead. Oh wait... it's been done.  :facepalm:

Vancouver is Awesome


----------



## daftandbarmy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> We could have them wear water bottles on their heads instead. Oh wait... it's been done.  :facepalm:
> 
> Vancouver is Awesome



My wife is flying back from Toronto tonight, through Vancouver. Her descriptions are hilarious....


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I would not want to owning a Dollar store franchise or any company dependent on items manufactured exclusively in China. You can bet at best the supply chain will take 3 months to get back online and more likely 6 months to a year.


----------



## brihard

Just your friendly reminder that every year upwards of 10 million people will be infected with Influenza, maybe half a million will be hospitalized, and over 12,000 will die.

Wash your damned hands.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Yes but when was the last time China locked down a whole Province over the flu?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just your friendly reminder that every year upwards of 10 million people will be infected with Influenza, maybe half a million will be hospitalized, and over 12,000 will die.
> 
> Wash your damned hands.



And those numbers seem more in line with just in the USA.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm


But still, wash your damn hands.  And get vaccinated.


----------



## Blackadder1916

While waiting for information from the Canadian Public Health Agency on what measures will be taken if and when Canadians (and/or Canadians-adjacent) are evacuated from Wuhan, the CDC has issue a quarantine order for those Americans who were flown to March Air Reserve Base.

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0131-federal-quarantine-march-air-reserve-base.html


> CDC Issues Federal Quarantine Order to Repatriated U.S. Citizens at March Air Reserve Base
> 
> Media Statement
> For Immediate Release: Friday, January 31, 2020
> Contact: Media Relations
> (404) 639-3286
> 
> The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), under statutory authority of the Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary, has issued federal quarantine orders to all 195 United States citizens who repatriated to the U.S. on January 29, 2020. The quarantine will last 14 days from when the plane left Wuhan, China.  This action is a precautionary and preventive step to maximize the containment of the virus in the interest of the health of the American public.
> 
> This legal order will protect the health of the repatriated citizens, their families, and their communities. These individuals will continue to be housed at the March Air Reserve Base in Riverside, California. Medical staff will continue to monitor the health of each traveler, including temperature checks and observation for respiratory symptoms.  If an individual presents symptoms, medical care will be readily available. Even if a screening test comes back negative from CDC’s laboratory results, it does not conclusively mean an individual is at no risk of developing the disease over the likely 14-day incubation period.
> 
> This legal order is part of a public health response that is necessary to prevent the transmission and spread of this virus in the U.S.  The World Health Organization (WHO) yesterday declared a Public Health Emergency of International Concern. The current epidemic in Mainland China has demonstrated the virus’s capacity to spread globally. CDC is using one of the tools in our toolbox as a way to contain the potential impact of this novel virus on the United States.
> 
> This outbreak investigation is ongoing; we learn more every day about this newly emerging virus.  First and foremost, CDC is committed to protecting the health and safety of all Americans.  While CDC continues to believe the immediate risk to the larger American public is low at this time, this legal order has been put in place as a necessary step to fully assess and care for these repatriated Americans, protecting them, their loved ones, and their communities.
> 
> For the latest information on the outbreak, visit CDC’s Novel Coronavirus 2019 website.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> ...
> 
> Experts in the United States have complained of spotty epidemiological information from China.
> 
> Also, the W.H.O. cannot share information with Taiwan, which now has eight coronavirus patients, because Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations.
> 
> The agency “doesn’t want to upset its major stakeholders,” said Charles Clift, a senior consulting fellow at the Chatham House, an international affairs research group in London. “China carries the political clout that other countries don’t.”
> 
> ...
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/30/health/coronavirus-world-health-organization.html


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Hopefully Canada share information with Taiwan.


----------



## CBH99

Sharing information about the spread of a virus so that innocent people can be better taken care of shouldn't be political, for either China or the UN.  Shamefully pathetic.


----------



## The Bread Guy

More on the CAN-CHN connection story from AFP's fact-checkers ...


> ... The claims appear to be based on a mischaracterization of August 2019 reports about a transfer of Ebola and Nipah viruses from a Canadian lab to Beijing, and an apparently separate issue involving two Chinese researchers at Canada’s National Microbiology Laboratory (NML) in Winnipeg, in the central province of Manitoba.
> 
> The NML is part of the federal Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC), whose senior media officer Tammy Jarbeau told AFP by email that “this is disinformation. (These) statements made on social networks have no factual basis.”
> The RCMP investigation
> 
> In July 2019, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) reported that two researchers with ties to China were removed from the NML in Winnipeg by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) for a possible “policy breach.” The article did not mention the coronavirus.
> 
> Robert Cyrenne, spokesman for the RCMP in Manitoba, told AFP by email that “there is no connection between the outbreak in China and any RCMP investigation. Any reporting of such is misinformation.”
> 
> Cyrenne confirmed to AFP that the investigation involving the researchers is still ongoing.
> 
> Dr Xiangguo Qiu, who helped develop a treatment for the Ebola virus, her husband Keding Cheng, a biologist who has published papers on coronavirus strains such as SARS-CoV, and Chinese students working under them had their security access revoked for Canada’s only level-4 lab, a facility equipped for research on the deadliest diseases ...


----------



## brihard

I got curious, dug a bit, and found the Quarantine Act, our applicable federal legislation.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/q-1.1/FullText.html

Long and the short of it, 'quarantine officers' and 'screening officers' can be designated, can detain and assess travelers, and hold them in quarantine. Lots of ministerial powers to do stuff to protect Canada form communicable diseases coming in. Peace officers (CBSA, RECMP, provincial/local police) have arrest authority if someone doesn't play ball.

So, the legal mechanisms exist to have Canada fly an aircraft in somewhere, detain them in quarantine, and have police (presumably RCMP) assigned to enforce if necessary.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Obviously not working for the _Public Health Agency of Canada_, I don’t fully understand why this is the case.

A vaccine for H1N1 was all but shoved down my throat when the panic was ensuing. I was pregnant at the time, and although I can’t recall the exact time frame, the inoculation came out well before a 1 year mark from the time the outbreak began. As with coronavirus and its various types, similar strains existed so there was something to work with in terms of creating a suitable vaccine.

I worked in a hospital around the time of SARS and it was pandemonium. While it’s generally understood now that the reaction was unbalanced compared to the actual risk, the talks of vaccinations were swirling very quickly. 

There are other examples of foreign strains of viruses which have circulated within our borders, and vaccines were made available within months. With the severity of this particular virus under scrutiny depending on the source, going by previous instances, I’m not clear why this could purportedly take so long. 

In any event, many of those in the know in Canada don’t feel coronavirus is a substantial worry. I’ve read multiple sources repeating the instructions given from Dr. Tam et. al. to simply wash hands and follow other standard practises for reducing the spread of flu.

 Coronavirus updates: Vaccine will likely take a year to come, Canada's chief public health officer says



> Canada’s chief public health officer says it will likely take at least a year before a vaccine is developed to protect people against the new coronavirus that is spreading around the globe...
> 
> ...Tam, who updated members of the House of Commons health committee on the outbreak, said the risk of catching the virus in Canada remains low.
> 
> And she said Canada and the world are much better prepared to deal with a potential pandemic than they were during the outbreak of SARS, another coronavirus that killed more than 700 people worldwide from 2002-04.
> 
> For now, the only treatment available for those who catch the virus is “supportive care,” Tam said. But she said countries around the world are collaborating to see if any existing anti-viral remedies are useful in this case...
> 
> A number of vaccines have previously been developed for other coronaviruses and she said countries around the globe are pulling together to see if they can accelerate development of a new vaccine that would protect against this particular strain...
> 
> ...”But what I can say is that even with the most rapid acceleration, I don’t believe we are going to see a vaccine that is ready probably for a year,” Tam said. “So at least we have to plan for the fact that we’re going to be managing this particular virus with no specific vaccine.”



More at link:

 https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/wuhan-china-coronavirus-outbreak-latest-news-updates


----------



## Czech_pivo

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0131-federal-quarantine-march-air-reserve-base.html
[/quote]

Wait, these Americans getting free Government run health care? 

I%u2019m willing to bet that it%u2019s the first health care check that a number of them have had in years.  If I were them I%u2019d be asking for all possible tests available, free on Uncle Sam%u2019s dime while I had the chance.


----------



## Czech_pivo

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Obviously not working for the _Public Health Agency of Canada_, I don’t fully understand why this is the case.
> 
> A vaccine for H1N1 was all but shoved down my throat when the panic was ensuing. I was pregnant at the time, and although I can’t recall the exact time frame, the inoculation came out well before a 1 year mark from the time the outbreak began. As with coronavirus and its various types, similar strains existed so there was something to work with in terms of creating a suitable vaccine.
> 
> I worked in a hospital around the time of SARS and it was pandemonium. While it’s generally understood now that the reaction was unbalanced compared to the actual risk, the talks of vaccinations were swirling very quickly.
> 
> There are other examples of foreign strains of viruses which have circulated within our borders, and vaccines were made available within months. With the severity of this particular virus under scrutiny depending on the source, going by previous instances, I’m not clear why this could purportedly take so long.
> 
> In any event, many of those in the know in Canada don’t feel coronavirus is a substantial worry. I’ve read multiple sources repeating the instructions given from Dr. Tam et. al. to simply wash hands and follow other standard practises for reducing the spread of flu.
> 
> Coronavirus updates: Vaccine will likely take a year to come, Canada's chief public health officer says
> 
> More at link:
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/wuhan-china-coronavirus-outbreak-latest-news-updates



You know they never bothered with getting a vaccine developed for SARS because it completely died out in July of 03?

What make you think this one will be any different? 3 of the 4 known cases here in Canada are already discharged from hospital.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> You know they never bothered with getting a vaccine developed for SARS because it completely died out in July of 03?
> 
> What make you think this one will be any different? 3 of the 4 known cases here in Canada are already discharged from hospital.



I don’t recall stating one way or the other that I thought there’d be any difference. What I stated was that I wasn’t clear why the time frame of a year is even being suggested given other scenarios I cited.

And I’d heard that about SARS, yes, although I never specifically read up on it on my own. Again, the talk(s) of vaccinations were spinning very quickly. Whether they came to fruition or not wasn’t the point I was getting at...


----------



## The Bread Guy

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> ... I’m not clear why this could purportedly take so long ...


From what little I've read about that bit (and, as always, happy to be corrected by people who are way more science-y than me), it _seems_ the human testing is likely to eat up a fair bit of time to make sure anything developed is safe (although the bit higlighted below also suggests the "who pays?" question will loom at some point, too).  Here's  a bit of detail in reasonably layperson language about the hoops that need to be jumped thru ...


> ... U.S. health officials are fast-tracking work on a coronavirus vaccine, hoping to start human trials within the next three months.
> 
> Even so, the fastest researchers could get a vaccine for the current outbreak to market would be a year, said Peter Hotez, co-director of Texas Children’s Hospital Center for Vaccine Development, who helped develop a vaccine candidate for SARS. And that’s assuming a best-case scenario where researchers immediately find something that works, the animal trials confirm it works and there are no complications in human trials.
> 
> “The problem is each vaccine is different. It’s not like you can snap your fingers and make a treatment,” Hotez said in a phone interview.
> Understanding the pathogen
> 
> Before researchers can begin human trials, they must first have a firm understanding of the pathogen. Scientists are in the early stages of understanding the novel coronavirus but they do know its most important molecule is a spike protein, a multifunctional mechanism that allows the virus to enter the host, said Dr. Maria Bottazzi, co-director of Texas Children’s Hospital Center for Vaccine Development.
> 
> “In the coronavirus — both the original SARS virus and Wuhan virus — it’s called the receptor-binding domain of the spike protein,” she said. “We, therefore, [would] use that as our ideal vaccine candidate.”
> 
> The next step is a preclinical toxicology study that assesses whether a drug is safe to use and is tested on animals, Bottazzi said. That usually takes three to six months depending on the study’s design, she said. If the evaluation is successful, scientists will then look to begin the first human trials, also known as phase 1 clinical trials, Bottazzi said.
> 
> “Those are usually done in normal, adult, healthy volunteers,” she said. “It generally doesn’t take more than maybe 20 or 30 people.”
> Roadblocks
> 
> However, even if the scientists successfully get to an early stage trial, they could run into roadblocks during the vaccine development process that could extend the timeline for deployment. Bottazzi said there will likely be regulatory or operational obstacles, such as finding enough human volunteers. *Then there are, of course, economic and financial hurdles, she said.
> 
> “What kind of business model? Who is going to pick up the cost?” she said. “Developing biologics can cost hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars.”*
> 
> Hotez said he ran into a funding roadblock when developing a vaccine candidate for SARS in 2011. The level of investor interest had been “remarkably little,” he recalled, because the SARS epidemic was no longer a huge problem. This is an issue with the system, he said.
> Record time
> 
> But thanks to SARS and success with the Ebola outbreak, some public health experts believe we could have a vaccine for the novel virus sooner than expected.
> 
> “We may have a vaccine in record time,” former FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb said.
> 
> Lawrence Gostin, a professor and faculty director of the O’Neill Institute for National and Global Health Law at Georgetown University, said due to the advancements in science, it wouldn’t surprise him to have a vaccine in hand within a few months.
> 
> “We are light years beyond where we were in biomedical technology than during SARS,” he said. “The world has changed and all for the better.” ...


OP edit to add:  Here's a bit of the range of what's being said right now about this ...

_*"Germany Expects Coronavirus Vaccine Within Months"*_
_*"A small coronavirus breakthrough could aid in the search for a vaccine"*_
_*"Investors rush into biotechs working on coronavirus vaccine"*_
_*"New Tech Could Make Coronavirus Vaccine in Record Time "*_
_*"Researchers make strides in race to create coronavirus vaccine"*_


----------



## brihard

"Ottawa deploys officials to China to co-ordinate airlift of Canadian citizens"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-coronavirus-airlift-update-1.5449419

BLUF: GAC has 325 requests for repatriation from Hubei province. A plan has been chartered; type and capacity not known. Details are being hammered out, not yet determined if there will be quarantine, where it's going, etc. Only Canadian passport holders will be allowed on. Nobody who is symptomatic or tests positive will be allowed on.

I'm curious to see how this plays out. I hope they err on the side of caution WRT qurantine.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> I hope they err on the side of caution WRT qurantine.


As others up-thread have mentioned, where would Canada medically quarantine 325 folks for 2 weeks or so?


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> , where would Canada medically quarantine 325 folks for 2 weeks or so?



Home?

I don't know how it works in 2020. But, back in 2003, 436 Toronto paramedics were placed in a 10-day home quarantine for SARS. 

Which meant being isolated from those persons within the home, continuously wearing an N95 respirator, and taking their temperature twice a day.

Six contracted SARS and were placed in intensive care.


----------



## brihard

Update: The Wuhan charter will land at CFB Trenton, and passengers will be subject to screening and a “period of observation”. 

Additional update: 14 day quarantine in Trenton.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-coronavirus-airlift-update-1.5449419


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Update: The Wuhan charter will land at CFB Trenton, and passengers will be subject to screening and a “period of observation”.
> 
> Additional update: 14 day quarantine in Trenton.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-coronavirus-airlift-update-1.5449419



Trenton.... 14 days stuck doing nothing in Trenton.

Will they be entitled to a psych eval afterwards?


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Global Affairs Canada info-machine version ...


> The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Health, and the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, today announced the Government of Canada’s plan to assist Canadians who have requested help in departing from Wuhan.
> 
> Government officials have reached out to Canadians and are continuing to offer information and assistance. The Government of Canada has chartered a plane that is standing by. It will land in Hanoi, Vietnam and deploy to Wuhan, where the airspace is currently closed, once the Government of China has given authorization to land. Work is also underway to comply with other Chinese requirements, including providing manifest details in advance of the flight departure and further documentation on the Canadians wishing to depart. Additionally, government officials and Canadian Armed Forces medical personnel are currently on their way to Hanoi and in the process of obtaining the necessary visas from the government of China to enter Wuhan.
> 
> Canadian officials are in constant contact with Canadians who have requested assistance to facilitate their departure from the affected region. Staff from the Embassy of Canada to China in Beijing, as well as members of Global Affairs Canada’s Standing Rapid Deployment Team, are now deployed to Wuhan to prepare for the departure of the flight.
> 
> To protect the health and safety of Canadians—both those who are coming to and those already in Canada—the returning individuals will undergo a thorough health screening before boarding, during the flight and upon arrival at CFB Trenton, Ontario.
> 
> The Government of Canada is working with provincial, territorial and local health authorities to support Canadians who may require further medical attention to be safely transferred to the health-care system upon their arrival. All other returning Canadians, including staff and flight crew, will remain at CFB Trenton for 14 days for further medical assessment and observation, and be provided with all the necessary medical and other supports as needed to ensure the health and safety of all Canadians.
> 
> Canadians in China in need of emergency consular assistance can contact the Embassy of Canada to China in Beijing at 86 (10) 5139 4000. Canadians can also call Global Affairs Canada’s 24/7 Emergency Watch and Response Centre (EWRC) in Ottawa at +1 613 996 8885 (collect calls are accepted where available) or email sos@international.gc.ca. It is important to note that individuals in Hubei Province must contact the EWRC in advance to make the necessary arrangements to access the evacuation flight.
> Quotes
> 
> “The Government of Canada takes the health and safety of Canadians, both at home and abroad, very seriously. We are taking action to return Canadians home from Wuhan, China, while ensuring that appropriate measures are in place to prevent and limit the spread of the novel coronavirus.”
> 
> - Hon. François-Phillippe Champagne, Minister of Foreign Affairs
> 
> “We have been working with all levels of government, public health officials and our international partners to ensure the safe return home of Canadians from Hubei Province, including staff and the flight crew. Our plan is focused on ensuring the health and safety of all Canadians.”
> 
> - Hon Patty Hajdu, Minister of Health
> 
> “The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces always stand ready to help Canadians in need. I am proud of our highly trained medical personnel who will assist in maintaining the health and safety of those travelling from Wuhan. As requested, our personnel and facilities will be made available to help the returning Canadians. We will continue to work with our federal partners and are prepared to assist wherever we are needed.”
> 
> - Hon. Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence


----------



## tomahawk6

Experts think the virus is transmitted through the digestive tract.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-may-transmit-through-digestive-tract

Some patients infected with the novel coronavirus, 2019-nCoV, had reported diarrhea when they first fell ill, and not a fever, which has been a more common sign of the pneumonia-like illness. The finding is significant because researchers have largely focused on transmission via respiratory droplets from an infected person.

The first of the now 11 confirmed cases of coronavirus in the U.S. had suffered from diarrhea before falling ill with the disease, according to Bloomberg.


----------



## The Bread Guy

And just to make it official ...


> Members of the Canadian military are now barred from any travel to China as public health officials continue to grapple with a new coronavirus spreading from the country, which has sickened more than 17,000 people over the past month.
> 
> In a general order issued to Canadian Forces (CAF) members on Monday, the military says Chief of Defence Staff Jonathan Vance views any travel as a risk to the military’s readiness capabilities.
> 
> “The CDS [chief of defence staff] has determined that travel by CAF [members] to Mainland China presents a risk to the health of CAF [members] for the foreseeable future,” the order states.
> 
> “It is imperative to protect our force and ensure continuity of operations. In order to maintain mandated readiness, the CAF will immediately implement travel restrictions that preclude all CAF travel to China, business or leisure, until otherwise directed.”
> 
> Under the ban, all authorizations for military members with plans to take leave in China are cancelled ...


More @ link


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Update: The Wuhan charter will land at CFB Trenton, and passengers will be subject to screening and a “period of observation”.
> 
> Additional update: 14 day quarantine in Trenton.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-coronavirus-airlift-update-1.5449419



Why fly all the way to CFB Trenton and add an extra five-six hours to an already long flight? And its not like there are no bases on the west coast (CFB Esquimalt/Chilliwack/Comox/Cadet Camp in Vernon).


----------



## brihard

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Why fly all the way to CFB Trenton and add an extra five-six hours to an already long flight? And its not like there are no bases on the west coast (CFB Esquimalt/Chilliwack/Comox/Cadet Camp in Vernon).



Probably a combination of easy lodging and logistics, proximity to a couple major cities with excellent hospitals, and the pessimist in me wants to say it’s colocated with CJIRU if things go poorly.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably a combination of easy lodging and logistics, proximity to a couple major cities with excellent hospitals, and the pessimist in me wants to say it’s colocated with CJIRU if things go poorly.



That, and probably also because Trenton is exclusively a military airfield so the aircraft can be more easily segregated (quarantined) while being cleaned/decontaminated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I thought I read somewhere CJIRU has some kind of police powers during a state of national emergency (relating to CBRN)    :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably a combination of easy lodging and logistics, proximity to a couple major cities with excellent hospitals, and the pessimist in me wants to say it’s colocated with CJIRU if things go poorly.



That sounds suspiciously like factors that may have been considered in the estimate......that went beyond proximity to China and length of the flight as the only factors to consider.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought I read somewhere CJIRU has some kind of police powers during a state of national emergency (relating to CBRN)    :Tin-Foil-Hat:



They’re still CAF and so would still be subject to aid to the civil power requests... However to the best of my knowledge, on the national security side of our CBRN capability, they integrate with RCMP CBRN (and probably in any serious situation take lead). There’s no default police powers that I know of, however it’s assumed from the get go that CJIRU needs the capability to forensically exploit a CBRN device for evidentiary purposes. The issue of being able to use CANSOF’s capabilities and people while still being able to viably prosecute a criminal event has led to some interesting work between both organizations, after some trial and error and dubious situations.

That said, that’s on the hostile act / thread side of things, which so far does not appear to be the case here... But it has led CJIRU to have unusually effective and surprisingly delegated abilities to work with public agencies. It’s almost like their operators are trained, employed, and trusted as if they were actually highly specialized professionals in a niche field.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest snapshot from the Johns Hopkins dashboard ...


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Latest snapshot from the Johns Hopkins dashboard ...



The trend is still ridiculously linear for something that should be growing with at least some visible exponential factor. Frankly I don’t trust the Chinese figures at all. They have no real incentive to be honest about this. The ‘everything but China’ figures, low as they presently are, are what we need to be watching. There’s been third generation human to human outside of China now.

Lots of sketchy stuff being said about this one... I’m not qualified to judge the reliability of some of the more scientific stories I’ve read, but there may be credibility to suppositions that this virus did not occur 100% naturally, based on genetic analysis. I hope that’s not accurate.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Will they be entitled to a psych eval afterwards?



Maybe. There were all sorts of studies on the psychological effects of SARS quarantine. 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNROeg4ktcvU_bFfzyBqEPE8vUQcMQ%3A1580787822789&ei=bug4XrPoL8GO9PwP48qX4Ao&q=sars+quarantine+stigma&oq=sars+quarantine+stigma&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39l2.18529.22851..23224...0.2..0.145.826.1j6......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.TgtwawxrlJg&ved=0ahUKEwiz15HF_bbnAhVBB50JHWPlBawQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1580787846002



> Quarantined workers experienced stigma, fear, and frustration.


----------



## garb811

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> That, and probably also because Trenton is exclusively a military airfield so the aircraft can be more easily segregated (quarantined) while being cleaned/decontaminated.


There is also no need to travel off base, with the exception of crossing Hwy 2. All the other places Retired AF Guy mentioned, even Comox, have the likely quarantine facilities a decent distance away from the airport through civie land.


----------



## tomahawk6

Brihard said:
			
		

> The trend is still ridiculously linear for something that should be growing with at least some visible exponential factor. Frankly I don’t trust the Chinese figures at all. They have no real incentive to be honest about this. The ‘everything but China’ figures, low as they presently are, are what we need to be watching. There’s been third generation human to human outside of China now.
> 
> Lots of sketchy stuff being said about this one... I’m not qualified to judge the reliability of some of the more scientific stories I’ve read, but there may be credibility to suppositions that this virus did not occur 100% naturally, based on genetic analysis. I hope that’s not accurate.



I think you are correct.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-admits-shortcomings-in-virus-response/ar-BBZAob5?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## NavyShooter

Brihard said:
			
		

> The trend is still ridiculously linear for something that should be growing with at least some visible exponential factor. Frankly I don’t trust the Chinese figures at all. They have no real incentive to be honest about this. The ‘everything but China’ figures, low as they presently are, are what we need to be watching. There’s been third generation human to human outside of China now.
> 
> Lots of sketchy stuff being said about this one... I’m not qualified to judge the reliability of some of the more scientific stories I’ve read, but there may be credibility to suppositions that this virus did not occur 100% naturally, based on genetic analysis. I hope that’s not accurate.



This sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.  I'm no expert in the field, but the biggest question in the back of my mind is - if there's only 20,000 cases, most in China...why did they suddenly build a 1000 person hospital...and are apparently starting another 1500 person hospital...?  What do they know that is causing them to react this way that we don't know?


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I think you are correct.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-admits-shortcomings-in-virus-response/ar-BBZAob5?ocid=spartanntp





			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> ... if there's only 20,000 cases, most in China...why did they suddenly build a 1000 person hospital...and are apparently starting another 1500 person hospital...?  What do they know that is causing them to react this way that we don't know?


C'mon, guys, you don't trust Chinese media?  ;D  _*"Response to virus shows strength of Party system"*_

Joking aside, they're even reining in work on their carrier and newest fighters because of the issue (links to CHN military media), so hmmm ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> This sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.  I'm no expert in the field, but the biggest question in the back of my mind is - if there's only 20,000 cases, most in China...why did they suddenly build a 1000 person hospital...and are apparently starting another 1500 person hospital...?  What do they know that is causing them to react this way that we don't know?


To add some further perspective, they also built a pretty big honkin' hospital pretty quickly during SARS in 2003.  And if you believe Chinese media, they're also upgrading that one, too, just in case ...


----------



## Blackadder1916

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> This sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.  I'm no expert in the field, but the biggest question in the back of my mind is - if there's only 20,000 cases, most in China...why did they suddenly build a 1000 person hospital...and are apparently starting another 1500 person hospital...?  What do they know that is causing them to react this way that we don't know?



I've not really paid much attention to the issue of Chinese hospital bed capacity for 2019-nCoV patients and while I'm no expert, I do have some experience with both facility planning (as a staff officer) and with the challenges of highly infectious disease care (was on the containment isolation team at NDMC when I was a Med A).  That being said, at a quick glance, none of the numbers about bed capacity, utilization or increase that are being presented in Chinese media seem extraordinary.  In situations such as this (compare it more to a war situation like the Gulf War) bed capacity is generally not planned for the best case but the worst case scenario.  Hopefully, peak infection rate has already been reached (though I doubt it) and if it gets really bad (it's not really bad yet) then it is too late to start planning for or developing the needed facilities.

Can China be trusted to tell the truth?  Not just "No" but "Hell, No!".  However, with regards to something sinister behind the opening, expansion or construction of specialized infectious disease facilities, I don't think there is much more to the story other than they are taking proper precautions.


----------



## BDTyre

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Why fly all the way to CFB Trenton and add an extra five-six hours to an already long flight? And its not like there are no bases on the west coast (CFB Esquimalt/Chilliwack/Comox/Cadet Camp in Vernon).



Chilliwack is a shell of it former self and is pretty much in the hands of CBSA and RCMP. I don't know if they'd even have room for what, 350 people? I don't think they even run summer BMQs out of there any more.


----------



## Blackadder1916

And there's always an arsehole who thinks he has a sense of humour.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6503789/false-coronavirus-claim-passenger-westjet-toronto-jamaica/


> Flight to Jamaica forced to return to Toronto after passenger makes false coronavirus claim
> 
> THE CANADIAN PRESS  Posted February 4, 2020 10:09 am  Updated February 4, 2020 12:21 pm
> 
> TORONTO – A WestJet flight from Toronto to Jamaica was forced to turn back after the airline says a passenger made an “unfounded claim regarding coronavirus.”
> 
> The airline says in a statement that 243 passengers aboard Flight 2702 were on their way to Sangster International Airport in Montego Bay on Monday when the flight was disrupted by an “unruly guest.”
> 
> The plane returned to Toronto, where law enforcement and paramedics were waiting, WestJet said.
> 
> WestJet said that “out of an abundance of caution,” the flight crew followed all protocols for infectious disease on board.
> 
> The airline says flights 2702 and 2703 were cancelled as a result of the incident, but two additional flights were scheduled this morning to make up for it – one leaving Toronto and one returning from Montego Bay.
> 
> The company declined to comment further on the incident, citing the police investigation.
> 
> Peel Regional Police said they arrested a 29-year-old man from Thornhill on Monday just after 2 p.m. in connection with the incident. He has been charged with mischief and has a court appearance scheduled for March 9. His name has not been publicly released.


----------



## ModlrMike

That's going to be an expensive joke.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Why fly all the way to CFB Trenton and add an extra five-six hours to an already long flight?



It might be an extra 3 hours.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Good tweet from the NYPD Hate Crimes unit: https://twitter.com/NYPDHateCrimes/status/1224884396634918914?s=20

This would, of course, be the lead story in Canadian TV media, but still even in the US a hate crime is a hate crime and judo kicking somebody in the face for wearing a mask is despicable.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> This sums up my thoughts pretty much exactly.  I'm no expert in the field, but the biggest question in the back of my mind is - if there's only 20,000 cases, most in China...why did they suddenly build a 1000 person hospital...and are apparently starting another 1500 person hospital...?  What do they know that is causing them to react this way that we don't know?



I watch liveleak a lot.  It's 100% a lot worse than China is letting on.  There is video circulating of inside the "hospital", it looks more like a prison than a hospital. 

Police in full decon suits have been detaining people and throwing them in the back of vans where they are carted off to wherever.  More than likely they will disappear.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

And the latest fact sheet on Op GLOBE 20-01:


> *Operation GLOBE*
> Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members are sometimes asked to help other Government of Canada departments with various tasks or to participate in Government of Canada activities abroad. When these tasks involve working outside of Canada, CAF members deploy under Operation GLOBE.
> 
> Operation GLOBE is part of the CAF’s commitment to active engagement abroad. These deployments give CAF members the opportunity to work alongside personnel from other government departments, as well as other nations.
> 
> *Op GLOBE 20-01*
> As citizens and partners of the community, the CAF have a shared responsibility to assist federal, provincial, territorial and municipal authorities to save lives and mitigate human suffering. The CAF stand ready to rapidly respond to requests for assistance that require the unique skills our members possess.
> 
> On December 31, 2019, a cluster of cases of pneumonia was reported in Wuhan, China, and the cause has been confirmed as the new coronavirus which had not been previously identified in humans. Six of our highly trained medical personnel are assisting Global Affairs Canada in escorting Canadians from Wuhan, China to Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Trenton, where they will be provided lodging for a 14-day medical assessment and observation period undertaken by our federal and provincial government partners.
> We are cognizant of the potential health risks to both CAF members and the wider Canadian population and we have taken steps to ensure the safety of all involved. While not the lead federal agency for this kind of assistance, CAF personnel are always prepared to help their fellow citizens in their time of need ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/02/04/251-canadians-are-aboard-quarantined-diamond-princess-cruise-ship/

TOKYO (NEWS 1130) – Princess Cruises has confirmed 251 Canadians are among those aboard a cruise ship that is being quarantined near Japan.

After a health screening was conducted by the Japanese Ministry of Health, 10 people on the Diamond Princess tested positive for novel coronavirus. None of the infected guests are Canadian, according to Princess Cruises, which operates the ship.

People infected with the new virus were led by gloved and masked officials Wednesday off the ship.

There are 2,666 guests and 1,045 crew in total on the Diamond Princess and all those who haven’t tested positive for the virus will remain under quarantine for 14 days in Yokohama. In a statement, Princess Cruises said it would fully cooperate with global medical authorities and the Japanese government. It added the next two Diamond Princess cruises departing Yokohama on Feb. 4 and Feb have been cancelled.


Meanwhile, in Hong Kong, more than 3,600 people on another cruise ship were being screened after it was banned by Taiwan amid growing worry about the spread of an outbreak. The territory’s beleaguered leader, Carrie Lam, also announced two terminals — including the terminal where the cruise ship is currently quarantined — would be shut down.

Both ships are caught up in the global health emergency that seems to worsen by the day.

The little-understood strain of coronavirus has killed nearly 500 people, mostly in mainland China, but it has also spread panic and anger around the world as the cases grow.

As thousands of hospital workers in Hong Kong went on strike to demand the border with mainland China be closed completely, the city announced all people entering from the mainland, including Hong Kong residents, must be quarantined for 14 days.

Hospitals said they had to cut some services due to striking workers’ absences.

In Tokyo, Olympics organizers said they were increasingly worried about the disruption the virus has caused ahead of the games, which open in less than six months.

Canadians in Wuhan wait
In Wuhan, the epicentre of the virus that’s infected thousands of people so far, hundreds of Canadians are anxiously waiting at the airport to find out if they’ll be able to board a chartered flight out of China back to Canada. The flight was scheduled to leave early Thursday morning, but has since been delayed due to what an email from the government called circumstances beyond its control.

More than 300 Canadians have asked the federal government for help in leaving the country amid the outbreak, as life has become very difficult during the mass quarantine. However, not everyone will have the chance to leave right away.

The chartered plane only has space for about 250 people, and the Chinese government has restricted who is allowed to board the flight when it’s given authorization to leave.

Currently, the Canadian government has managed to negotiate terms by which only Canadian passport holders, and permanent residents — even possibly Chinese nationals — who are primary caregivers to children are permitted to be repatriated.


----------



## tomahawk6

A newborn infant was found to have the virus in Wuhan.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/baby-tests-positive-for-china-virus-just-30-hours-after-birth/ar-BBZFMSb?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *This Chinese doctor tried to save lives, but was silenced. Now he has coronavirus*
> 
> On December 30, Li Wenliang dropped a bombshell in his medical school alumni group on the popular Chinese messaging app WeChat: seven patients from a local seafood market had been diagnosed with a SARS-like illness and quarantined in his hospital.
> 
> Li explained that, according to a test he had seen, the illness was a coronavirus -- a large family of viruses that includes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).
> 
> Memories of SARS run deep in China, where a pandemic in 2003 killed hundreds following a government cover up. "I only wanted to remind my university classmates to be careful," he said.
> 
> Li, a 34-year-old doctor working in Wuhan, the central Chinese city at the epicenter of the deadly coronavirus outbreak, told his friends to warn their loved ones privately. But within hours screenshots of his messages had gone viral -- without his name being blurred. "When I saw them circulating online, I realized that it was out of my control and I would probably be punished," Li said.
> 
> He was right.
> 
> Soon after he posted the message, Li was accused of rumor-mongering by the Wuhan police. He was one of several medics targeted by police for trying to blow the whistle on the deadly virus in the early weeks of the outbreak. The virus has since claimed at least 425 lives and sickened more than 20,000 people globally -- including Li.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Wuhan doctor Li Wenliang in an intensive care bed on oxygen support after contracting the coronavirus._
> 
> From an intensive care bed in hospital, Li told CNN he was confirmed Saturday to have contracted the virus.
> His diagnosis has sparked outrage across China, where a backlash is growing against state censorship around the illness and an initial delay in warning the public about the deadly virus.
> 
> 
> *Summoned by the police*
> 
> On the same day in December that Li messaged his friends, an emergency notice was issued by the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission, informing the city's medical institutions that a series of patients from the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market had an "unknown pneumonia."
> 
> The notice came with a warning: "Any organizations or individuals are not allowed to release treatment information to the public without authorization."
> 
> In the early hours of December 31, Wuhan's health authorities held an emergency meeting to discuss the outbreak. Afterwards, Li was summoned by officials at his hospital to explain how he knew about the cases, according to state-run newspaper Beijing Youth Daily.
> 
> Later that day, the Wuhan authorities announced the outbreak and alerted the World Health Organization. But Li's troubles did not end there.
> 
> On January 3, Li was called to a local police station and reprimanded for "spreading rumors online" and "severely disrupting social order" over the message he sent in the chat group.
> 
> In that message, Li said the patients had been diagnosed with SARS, citing the test result that showed the pathogen tested positive for the SARS virus with a high "confidence coefficient" -- a measure indicating the accuracy of the test. He clarified in a subsequent message that the virus was actually a different type of coronavirus, but the screenshot of his first message had already spread online.
> 
> Li had to sign a statement -- which CNN has seen a photograph of -- acknowledging his "misdemeanor" and promising not to commit further "unlawful acts."
> 
> He feared he was going to be detained. "My family would worry sick about me, if I lose my freedom for a few days," he told CNN over a text message on WeChat -- he was coughing too much and breathing too poorly to speak over the phone.
> 
> Luckily, Li was allowed to leave the police station after an hour.
> 
> The Wuhan police has not responded to CNN's request for comment at the time of publishing. The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declined to comment.
> 
> The ophthalmologist returned to work at Wuhan Central Hospital feeling helpless. He said: "There was nothing I could do. (Everything) has to adhere to the official line."
> 
> On January 10, after unwittingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Li started coughing and developed a fever the next day. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li's condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit, and given oxygen support.
> 
> On February 1, he tested positive for coronavirus.
> 
> 
> *Playing down the outbreak*
> 
> From the start, the Chinese authorities wanted to control information about the outbreak, silencing any voices that differed with their narrative -- regardless of whether they were telling the truth.
> 
> On January 1, the Wuhan police announced it had "taken legal measures" against eight people who had recently "published and shared rumors online" about the pneumonia-like illness and "caused adverse impacts on society."
> 
> "The internet is not a land beyond the law ... Any unlawful acts of fabricating, spreading rumors and disturbing the social order will be punished by police according to the law, with zero tolerance," said a police statement on Weibo, China's Twitter-like platform.
> 
> The police announcement was broadcast across the country on CCTV, China's state broadcaster, making it clear how the Chinese government would treat such "rumormongers."
> 
> In the two weeks that followed, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission remained the only source for updates on the developments of the outbreak. Chinese scientists identified the pathogen as a new coronavirus on January 7. For about a week, no new confirmed cases were announced. Health authorities maintained there was "no obvious evidence for human to human transmission," no infection of healthcare workers, and that the outbreak was "preventable and controllable."
> 
> On January 31, Li wrote in a post on Weibo how he felt during that period: "I was wondering why (the government's) official notices were still saying there was no human-to-human transmission, and there were no healthcare workers infected."
> 
> Then came a sudden jump in infections. Until January 17, the Wuhan authorities had only reported 41 cases of the virus. By January 20, that number had soared to 198.
> 
> The central government took over and, on January 20, President Xi Jinping ordered "resolute efforts to curb the spread" of the coronavirus and stressed the need for the timely release of information -- it was the first time Xi had publicly addressed the outbreak.
> 
> Later that evening, Zhong Nanshan, a government-appointed respiratory expert, known for fighting SARS 17 years ago, declared on state broadcaster CCTV that the new coronavirus was transmissible from person to person.
> 
> Three days later, authorities placed an unprecedented lockdown on Wuhan, the economic engine and transportation hub of China's central heartland -- but five million people had already left the city for the Lunar New Year holiday.
> 
> Now, the virus has spread to every region in the country, including the far western frontier of Xinjiang and the remote region of Tibet.
> 
> In an interview with CCTV on January 27, Wuhan mayor Zhou Xianwang admitted his government did not disclose information on the coronavirus "in a timely fashion."
> 
> He explained that under Chinese law on infectious diseases, the local government first needs to report the outbreak to national health authorities, and then get approval from the State Council before making an announcement.
> 
> "For the late disclosure, I hope everyone can understand that this is an infectious disease, and relevant information has special channels to be disclosed in accordance with law," he said.
> 
> 
> *Public uproar*
> 
> By late January, the Wuhan government's mishandling of the outbreak was becoming well-understood in China. Many online thought of the group of eight "rumormongers," saying their early warnings could have saved hundreds of lives.
> 
> Calls for the eight to be vindicated grew -- even in state media. Xi's call for the timely release of information was seen as a green light to report on the coronavirus and Chinese journalists began producing in-depth coverage and hard-hitting investigative reports. The state-run newspaper Beijing Youth Daily interviewed Li and the article went viral. The piece was censored within hours, but the uproar remained.
> 
> As public anger mounted, China's Supreme Court on January 28 criticized the Wuhan police for punishing the "rumormongers."
> 
> "It might have been a fortunate thing for containing the new coronavirus, if the public had listened to this 'rumor' at the time, and adopted measures such as wearing masks, strict disinfection and avoiding going to the wildlife market," the Supreme Court commentary said.
> 
> Bowing to pressure, the Wuhan police issued a statement the next day, saying the eight people had only committed "particularly minor" misdemeanors for spreading "unverified information." It said they had only been summoned for a talk and not detained or fined.
> 
> On Saturday, another "rumormonger" came forward with her story in the Chinese press.
> 
> Xie Linka, an oncologist at Wuhan Union Hospital, told Chinese media she received a warning from police after sending an alert to her colleagues in a WeChat group on the evening of December 30.
> 
> In the message, Xie relayed a warning from fellow doctors about an infectious disease: "Don't go to Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in the near future. Several people were found to have contracted an unknown pneumonia similar to SARS there. Today our hospital has received multiple patients from the market. Everyone please remember to wear masks and ventilate properly."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Li Wenliang, a doctor in Wuhan, was punished by police for "spreading rumors" over a message warning people against the coronavirus._
> 
> Now recovering in a quarantine ward, Li said he was not sure if he was one of the eight "rumormongers." But he felt relieved after reading the Supreme Court commentary, taking it as a sign that the central government is against giving him a harsh punishment.
> 
> On Li's Weibo, tens of thousands have left comments thanking him for speaking out and wishing him a speedy discovery.
> 
> "Dr Li, you're a good doctor with conscience. I hope you stay safe and sound," read one of the top-rated comments.
> 
> Others have questioned what could have been if Li's warning had been heeded.
> 
> "If Wuhan had paid attention to [his warning] back then and taken active preventive measures," wrote another Weibo user, "where we stand now a month later could be a completely different picture."
> 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/03/asia/coronavirus-doctor-whistle-blower-intl-hnk/index.html
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/this-chinese-doctor-tried-to-save-lives-but-was-silenced-now-he-has-coronavirus-1.4797913


----------



## YZT580

and this is the governing style so much admired by JT?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Any of the police officials that spoke with him sick?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Any of the police officials that spoke with him sick?



That would be ironic.....


----------



## tomahawk6

A vaccine that china wants to patent. But Gilead is developing it. If I were Gilead I would hold onto the intellectual property and make a licensing agreement.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/china-wants-to-patent-gileads-experimental-coronavirus-drug/ar-BBZFgcZ?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest snapshot as of this morning ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Wire service reporters' take on Trenton (the town, not the base) preparing for evacuees, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act ...


> *Canadian military town prepares for coronavirus evacuees*
> Moira Warburton, Denise Paglinawan
> 
> A small town in central Canada that is host to the country’s largest air force base is preparing, with some apprehension, for the arrival of some 200 evacuees from Wuhan, China, the epicenter of a coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> Canada plans to fly the evacuees to the base in Trenton, Ontario, the country’s main military hub for air transport, and hold them in quarantine for two weeks. The outbreak has killed 492 people and sickened nearly 25,000 worldwide.
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said on Wednesday the plane was expected to arrive on Friday.
> 
> “We understand that because of SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome), they are much more prepared for things like that,” said Cindy McMaster, 55, who manages the local Bargain Bin discount store. “But it’s not fair to say people aren’t worried or scared, because they are. And it is a concern in our area.”
> 
> SARS, a contagious respiratory illness, killed 44 people in Canada in 2002-2003, the only country outside Asia to report deaths from that virus. Government health officials say Canada is better prepared this time.
> 
> The evacuees arriving from China will be separated from each other and from others on the base, although family units will be kept together, the government has said. They will all stay at Yukon Lodge, a new facility on the base which resembles a small chain hotel.
> 
> Individuals will only be moved to a hospital if they require acute care, said the local health authority, but local hospitals were prepared, with 21 negative-pressure rooms at four of them.
> 
> “I was in the military, I know how it works,” said resident Joyce Aucoin, 81. “There’s going to be people upset about it but once they’re here and once they’re settled and they see what’s going on, I think it will all pass.”
> 
> Lynn Cao, 60, who owns a tobacco shop in the town, had been concerned about the plane arriving until she received reassuring emails from friends on the base.
> 
> Cao said she was more anxious about her mother and sister, who live near the Chinese capital Beijing, and had sent them a large number of face masks to limit their chances of infection.
> 
> Masks were already sold out at most of the town’s pharmacies, and at some, even before the airlift was announced.
> 
> “It just seems like everything is so overblown,” said Frank Meiboom, president of the local rotary club. “Let’s bring these people home, bring them back to Canada and give them the best care we can and say ‘welcome home.’”
> 
> Writing by Allison Martell; Editing by Bernadette Baum


----------



## ModlrMike

To keep things in perspective:

Mortality rate nCov = 2% (current)

Morality rate Influenza = 6.7% (2019)

Get the damn flu shot!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> To keep things in perspective:
> 
> Mortality rate nCov = 2% (current)
> 
> Morality rate Influenza = 6.7% (2019)
> 
> Get the damn flu shot!



Reported cases, possibility of 24,000+ deaths  https://www.zerohedge.com/health/did-chinas-tencent-accidentally-leak-true-terrifying-coronavirus-statistics?fbclid=IwAR2rmJ7cyKgZhfruZ9N9cLhWeXX9mahU3dOyJMbPJGHk3khpgfX4OQIibNk


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Reported cases, possibility of 24,000+ deaths  https://www.zerohedge.com/health/did-chinas-tencent-accidentally-leak-true-terrifying-coronavirus-statistics?fbclid=IwAR2rmJ7cyKgZhfruZ9N9cLhWeXX9mahU3dOyJMbPJGHk3khpgfX4OQIibNk


I'm personally leery about Zero Hedge, so here's more on this from Taiwan media here, and Australian media here.

Who/what is Tencent?  Is that like "Microsoft's tracker says x" or "Google posted y"?

Meanwhile, in the irony folder ...


> Li Wenliang, one of the eight doctors who tried to alert authorities about the coronavirus when it was first emerging in Wuhan only to be reprimanded by local police, has died, Chinese media reported.
> 
> Li, 34, an ophthalmologist at the Wuhan Central Hospital, was found to be infected with coronavirus on Saturday and died on Thursday.
> 
> “We are very sorry to hear the loss of any frontline worker who is committed to care for patients … we should celebrate his life and mourn his death with his colleagues,” said Michael Ryan, director of the World Health Organisation's health emergencies programme, said during a briefing on Thursday.
> 
> On December 30, Li warned his medical school classmates in an online chat group that a Sars-like illness had stricken several patients in a Wuhan hospital and that all of them were quarantined in the emergence department.
> 
> The same day that the doctor shared the messages, local health authorities announced that the city had confirmed 27 cases of a new type of virus, most of them linked to a seafood market.
> 
> However, Li, along with seven other doctors who shared information about the outbreak, was summoned to the local police and forced to sign a letter promising to make no further disclosures concerning the disease ...


----------



## ModlrMike

Colin P said:
			
		

> Reported cases, possibility of 24,000+ deaths  https://www.zerohedge.com/health/did-chinas-tencent-accidentally-leak-true-terrifying-coronavirus-statistics?fbclid=IwAR2rmJ7cyKgZhfruZ9N9cLhWeXX9mahU3dOyJMbPJGHk3khpgfX4OQIibNk



Hmmmm...

OK, even if you discount all the data from China, nCov still comes out at 6% mortality, which is still slightly less than influenza. I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned, just that we need to guard against hysteria.


----------



## tomahawk6

It doesn't help the medics tracking this virus to have the data out of China, with the Government obscuring the death toll. There is a Chinese company called tencent that briefly posted the real numbers on their web site before the Government stopped it. Whats weird is that THE Chinese are treating this virus with AIDS drugs even though there is no link between AIDS and this virus. They would be better to use SARS related drugs.


----------



## Blackadder1916

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> It doesn't help the medics tracking this virus to have the data out of China, with the Government obscuring the death toll. There is a Chinese company called tencent that briefly posted the real numbers on their web site before the Government stopped it. *Whats weird is that THE Chinese are treating this virus with AIDS drugs *even though there is no link between AIDS and this virus. They would be better to use SARS related drugs.



Yes, it's "THE Chinese" who are weird for trying existing *anti*retro*viral* drugs (i.e. HIV drugs) against a virus.

https://www.genengnews.com/artificial-intelligence/ai-predicts-coronavirus-vulnerable-to-hivs-atazanavir/


> AI Predicts Coronavirus Vulnerable to HIV%u2019s Atazanavir
> By Julianna LeMieux, PhD -February 5, 2020
> 
> The number of people infected with the novel coronavirus from Wuhan, China (2019-nCoV) has been rising steadily, with the latest reported number of cases surpassing 20,000 (at least)%u2014far exceeding the toll of the 2003 SARS epidemic.
> 
> Multiple companies have already reported working on vaccine production, including a collaboration between the mRNA company Moderna and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), a branch of NIH. But, even quick vaccine development may be too slow to catch up with a growing outbreak.
> 
> Other companies are taking a different angle%u2014testing anti-viral drugs that already exist. Gilead Sciences (_. . . a US biotech company_ . . .) said it will partner with China on a randomized, controlled trial designed to assess its antiviral drug candidate remdesivir as a potential treatment for 2019-nCoV. Another example is the use of HIV anti-virals lopinavir and ritonavir (sold as Kaletra by AbbVie) on 41 patients in Wuhan.
> 
> Despite these drugs%u2019 potential, some researchers are turning to artificial intelligence to quickly find potential anti-virals to test against 2019-nCoV.
> 
> An international collaboration between researchers at Deargen and Dankook University in the Republic of Korea, and Emory University in the United States, have published a prediction model for antiviral drugs that may be effective on 2019-nCoV.
> 
> The work is published in the article %u201CPredicting commercially available antiviral drugs that may act on the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV), Wuhan, China, through a drug-target interaction deep learning model%u201D posted on the bioRxiv preprint server.
> 
> %u201CIt was purely out of scientific curiosity that we wanted to look at whether our AI model can suggest any drug that could be used against 2019-nCoV,%u201D noted Keunsoo Kang, PhD, assistant professor at Dankook University and senior author on the paper. He told GEN that this was a %u201Cdrug repurposing%u201D approach, to use existing anti-virals on another virus. So, Kang explained, %u201Conly those anti-viral drugs that are available on the market were presented from the raw results.%u201D
> 
> The team used their pre-trained deep learning-based drug-target interaction model, Molecule Transformer-Drug Target Interaction (MT-DTI), to identify commercially available drugs that could act on viral proteins of 2019-nCoV. MT-DTI is a self-attention-based deep learning model designed for predicting an affinity score between a drug and a protein.
> 
> 
> . . .



And some journal articles.  HIV drugs were also looked at in the treatment of SARS.  Such an approach is neither new nor unusual.

In the Journal of Clinical Virology November 2005
Expanding the frontiers of existing antiviral drugs: Possible effects of HIV-1 protease inhibitors against SARS and avian influenza

And from Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications June 2004
HIV protease inhibitor nelfinavir inhibits replication of SARS-associated coronavirus


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The doctor that first reported it has now died, RIP you tried to do your duty.


----------



## GR66

Colin P said:
			
		

> The doctor that first reported it has now died, RIP you tried to do your duty.



...or has he???

From the BBC:  *Coronavirus: Chinese media confusion over doctor's death*

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795


----------



## The Bread Guy

GR66 said:
			
		

> ...or has he???
> 
> From the BBC:  *Coronavirus: Chinese media confusion over doctor's death*
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795


Even the state-run _Global Times_ is confirming it now - interesting bits highlights mine ...


> Chinese doctor Li Wenliang, one of the eight "whistleblowers" who tried to warn other medics of the coronavirus outbreak but were reprimanded by local police, died from coronavirus early on Friday, the hospital where he received treatment announced.
> 
> Wuhan Central Hospital released on its Weibo account that Li passed away at 2:58 am Friday after emergency treatment.
> 
> Li was given emergency treatment with ECMO (extra-corporeal membrane oxygenation) after his heart stopped beating at around 21:30 Thursday, according to media reports.
> 
> Li, a doctor who worked for Wuhan Central Hospital where he was also treated for coronavirus infection, initially warned his college classmates about the deadly virus in December 2019, urging them to take care. On December 30, he obtained a patient report suggesting SARS-like coronavirus positive signs. He then published information in a group chat saying that there have been seven confirmed cases of "SARS," according to one of his Weibo posts. On January 3, local police reprimanded him for spreading "online rumors" and required him to sign a letter of reprimand.
> 
> Since then, he returned to work, the post said. After he received patients infected with coronavirus, he began coughing on January 10, then having fever the next day. He was subsequently hospitalized on January 12.
> 
> Li was among eight Wuhan residents who were reprimanded by local police in early January for spreading "rumors" about the outbreak of the novel coronavirus.
> 
> The information they spread online claimed that cases of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), the viral respiratory illness that battered China in the spring of 2003, were detected in some of Wuhan's hospitals.
> 
> *Many said the experience of the eight "whistle-blowers" was evidence of local authorities' incompetence to tackle a contagious and deadly virus.
> 
> A top epidemiologist at the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CCDC) said in a recent interview with Global Times' editor-in-chief Hu Xijin that we should highly praise the eight Wuhan residents.
> 
> "They were wise before the outbreak," Zeng Guang, chief epidemiologist at the CCDC, said, adding though that any judgment needs to be backed by scientific evidence.
> 
> Some Chinese netizens said local authorities owe him an official apology, claiming that it's heartbreaking news. "We lost a hero," a netizen said in a WeChat post, noting that if his warning could send an alarm, the outbreak might not have continued to worsen. *
> 
> The 34-year-old doctor who was originally from Northeast China's Liaoning Province, was enrolled in at Wuhan University in 2004, majoring in clinical medicine, according to media reports. After three-year of work in Xiamen, East China's Fujian Province, he returned to Wuhan and had been working at Wuhan Central Hospital since then.
> 
> Media reports also said his wife, who is pregnant, was not in good conditions. Li said on his Weibo account that he was diagnosed with coronavirus infection on Saturday.
> 
> Li told the media in earlier reports that "as the coronavirus continues to spread, I don't want to leave. I'll work on the frontline when I recover."


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ....

_*“Plane carrying Canadians who left China amid coronavirus outbreak lands at CFB Trenton”*_ (CBC)
_*“Flight from Wuhan carrying Canadians lands at Canadian Forces Base Trenton”*_ (The Canadian Press via CTV News)
_*“Five more Canadians test positive for coronavirus on quarantined cruise ship”*_ (The Canadian Press via National Post)
_*“China scientists want to patent Gilead drug to treat coronavirus patients”*_ (MarketWatch)
_*“Bay Area-Based Gilead Sees Potential Legal Conflict With China Over Its Coronavirus Drug”*_ (sfist.com)
_*“Share same cloak and move forward together in fighting epidemic”*_ (CHN military media)
Latest stats attached.


----------



## tomahawk6

11 Americans sick on Diamond Princess cruise ship. Known death toll at 636.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coronavirus-updates-8-more-americans-diagnosed-on-cruise-ship-as-death-toll-hits-638/ar-BBZKwoc?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> AI Predicts Coronavirus Vulnerable to HIV%u2019s Atazanavir
> By Julianna LeMieux, PhD -February 5, 2020
> 
> The number of people infected with the novel coronavirus from Wuhan, China (2019-nCoV) has been rising steadily, with the latest reported number of cases surpassing 20,000 (at least)%u2014far exceeding the toll of the 2003 SARS epidemic.
> 
> Multiple companies have already reported working on vaccine production, including a collaboration between the mRNA company Moderna and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), a branch of NIH. But, even quick vaccine development may be too slow to catch up with a growing outbreak.
> 
> Other companies are taking a different angle%u2014testing anti-viral drugs that already exist. Gilead Sciences (. . . a US biotech company . . .) said it will partner with China on a randomized, controlled trial designed to assess its antiviral drug candidate remdesivir as a potential treatment for 2019-nCoV. Another example is the use of HIV anti-virals lopinavir and ritonavir (sold as Kaletra by AbbVie) on 41 patients in Wuhan ...
Click to expand...

About that ...


> Bay Area-Based Gilead Sees Potential Legal Conflict With China Over Its Coronavirus Drug
> 
> The Foster City-based pharmaceutical company Gilead Sciences, which specializes in antiviral drugs, recently donated some of its experimental drug remdesivir for use in studying potential treatments for the Wuhan coronavirus. But a legal fight is brewing after Gilead applied for a Chinese patent for the drug in 2016, and still has not received one, and a group of researchers in Wuhan just applied for their own patent for Gilead's drug last month ...


China, stealing appropriating IP? ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest from the info-machine ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

One Chinese county's financial incentives ...


> Fangxian County in central China's virus-hit Hubei Province on Sunday rolled out measures to give cash bonus to encourage actions such as voluntary doctor-seeing and whistle-blowing in a bid to enhance epidemic prevention and control.
> 
> *Feverish patients who voluntarily go to fever clinics of designated hospitals will be rewarded 1,000 yuan* (about 142.9 U.S. dollars) each. Individuals who report feverish patients to the authorities will get 500-yuan bonus if the case reported is confirmed.
> 
> Township, village cadres and doctors will also get 500 yuan for every fever cases confirmed during investigation.*
> 
> The incentive measures will be implemented until Feb. 18, according to an announcement made by the county government.
> 
> Fangxian is a national-level poverty-stricken county, with 27 confirmed cases of the novel coronavirus infection reported by Saturday.


*** - about CAN $190 as of this post.  This against an average monthly wage across major centres of 8,452 yuan/CAN $1611.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A second Canadian plane carrying evacuees from the quarantined region of Hubei, China, has  landed at Canadian Forces Base Trenton in southern Ontario.
> 
> The plane carrying 185 passengers landed shortly after 6 a.m. ET on Tuesday.
> 
> The plane made a brief stop at the Vancouver International Airport in Richmond, B.C to refuel before continuing on towards Trenton.
> 
> In a tweet Tuesday morning, Canada’s chief medical officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, said to ensure the health and safety of the repatriated Canadians and the public “returning Canadians and their family members will continue to be assessed for symptoms of 3029-nCoV coronavirus throughout their 14 day stay at CFB Trenton.”
> 
> Myriam Larouche, one of the 213 Canadians who were flown in Friday from the Chinese epicentre of the novel coronavirus outbreak, says life under quarantine at the base feels like summer camp.
> 
> On Monday, Tam authorized the release of one government employee and five flight crew members who assisted with the first evacuation flight, citing a low risk of exposure to the virus ...


More here.


> *Update #2: Statement from the Chief Public Health Officer on the release of selected individuals from quarantine for the 2019 novel coronavirus*
> _From: Public Health Agency of Canada_
> 
> February 10, 2020 - Ottawa, ON - Public Health Agency of Canada
> 
> OTTAWA – Further to my previous statements, as Chief Public Health Officer, I have assessed additional individuals in quarantine at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Trenton pursuant to an Emergency Order under the Quarantine Act and determined that they do not pose a risk of significant harm to public health.
> 
> I have authorized the release of 25 flight crew members who accompanied the returning travellers on the flight from Wuhan to Vancouver to CFB Trenton. In my assessment, I took into account the fact that they did not spend time in the epicentre of the outbreak, that they followed appropriate infection prevention and control protocols (including the use of personal protective equipment), and that they did not have unprotected contact with passengers or persons at risk of having the novel coronavirus. As a result of this assessment, I have determined that their continued quarantine is not required.



Latest Johns Hopkins #'s attached.


----------



## mariomike

> , says life under quarantine at the base feels like summer camp.



That's nice. Didn't feel "like summer camp" when I was under quarantine.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> That's nice. Didn't feel "like summer camp" when I was under quarantine.



Experiences may vary


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Experiences may vary



They sure do.

As Dickens said, “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."

Financially, it was the best of times. Other than that, it was the worst time of my life.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Financially, it was the best of times. Other than that, it was the worst time of my life.



What happened?


----------



## YZT580

Not normally the most reliable of sources but the daily beast has an article from two days ago highlighting the big unknown: what is happening in North Korea?  There are no reported cases yet there was a significant traffic flow between the two countries until well after the corona outbreak.  It seems highly unlikely that none of that traffic crossing the border had contact with the virus and the health system in NK is totally incapable of dealing with an epidemic of any nature.  That possibility is very scarey


----------



## Blackadder1916

A new name!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51466362


> Coronavirus officially named Covid-19, says WHO
> 
> *The World Health Organization says the official name for the new coronavirus will be Covid-2019*.
> 
> "We now have a name for the disease and it's Covid-19," WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told reporters in Geneva.
> 
> It comes after the death toll from the virus passed 1,000. Tens of thousands of people have been infected.
> 
> The word coronavirus refers to the group of viruses it belongs to, rather than the latest strain.
> 
> Researchers have been calling for an official name to avoid confusion and stigmatisation.
> 
> "We had to find a name that did not refer to a geographical location, an animal, an individual or group of people, and which is also pronounceable and related to the disease," the WHO chief said.
> 
> "Having a name matters to prevent the use of other names that can be inaccurate or stigmatising. It also gives us a standard format to use for any future coronavirus outbreaks"
> 
> There are now more than 42,200 confirmed cases across China. The number of deaths has overtaken that of the Sars epidemic in 2003.
> 
> On Monday, some 103 died in Hubei province alone, a daily record, and the national death toll is now 1,016.
> 
> But the number of new infections nationally was down almost 20% from the day before, from 3,062 to 2,478.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What happened?



From what I understand, prior to SARS, there had not been a quarantine in Canada in 50 years.

526 of us - out of 700 - were quarantined. That's a pretty high ratio for a relatively small group of people. It was widely reported in the news. 

To maintain 9-1-1 coverage, those of us who were not sick, were put on "working quarantine". 12 hours on - 12 hours off.

In public, we had to wear nitrile gloves, gown, N95 respirator, and protective goggles, or a face shield. 

Fear and frustration are natural. But, what really hurt was the stigma: "a mark of disgrace associated with a particular circumstance". 

Just for doing our jobs.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> From what I understand, prior to SARS, there had not been a quarantine in Canada in 50 years.



Maybe as not as widespread, but I seem to recall as a youngster (late 1950s - early 1960s) the occasional family being quarantined for polio, though by that time, with the introduction of Salk and later Sabin vaccines, that practice was rare.  I suppose that similar measures were in place for TB, though by that time the "San" (Sanitorium) was on it's last legs as an institution.

While you may have either first hand or anecdotal knowledge of the 1976 Lassa Fever case, some of the reports I saw of that incident indicated that health care staff were quarantined during the period.  One of the outshoots of the Lassa Fever fears in the 1970s was that DND accepted the role for providing a containment isolation capability at NDMC Ottawa for highly infectious exotic diseases.  I was a member of the team (it was a secondary duty) in the early 1980s.  While we exercised occasionally (including the aeromedical transport aspect, was also in that team) the Vickers Containment Isolator was (to my knowledge) only used once during that period.  It was a "suspected" Lassa Fever that was later confirmed as not being Lassa.   However, in the interim the unit operated as per protocol which included segregating the floor wing on which the isolator was located, quarantining the patient care team to that wing (living in the patient rooms) and maintaining very strict isolation technique.  There was one other occasion when it was contemplated to use the isolation unit and that was when a request was made by other local civilian hospitals if we would accept care of patients with a newly identified infection - AIDS.


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Maybe as not as widespread, but I seem to recall as a youngster (late 1950s - early 1960s) the occasional family being quarantined for polio, though by that time, with the introduction of Salk and later Sabin vaccines, that practice was rare.  I suppose that similar measures were in place for TB, though by that time the "San" (Sanitorium) was on it's last legs as an institution.



I certainly remember the "Weston San" on Buttonwood Ave.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> While you may have either first hand or anecdotal knowledge of the 1976 Lassa Fever case, some of the reports I saw of that incident indicated that health care staff were quarantined during the period.



I remember it, ( anecdotally, thankfully ).  

I knew / know the two crews involved. 



> THE TORONTO LASSA FEVER SCARE OF 1976
> Eleven Days of Fear
> 
> Lassa Fever is an acute viral illness that was discovered in West Africa, in 1969.  This is a zoonotic (animal borne virus), spread by the "multimammate rat. Lassa Fever can also be spread from person to person if there is blood, tissue, excretions or secretion transmission.
> 
> Typically signs and symptoms  occur 1-3 weeks after the patient is exposed to the virus.  These symptoms include: fever, sore throat, retrosternal pain ,cough, back pain, abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, conjunctivitis, facial swelling, proteinuria (protein in urine) and mucosal bleeding.  Hearing loss, tremors and encephalitis can also occur. This disease invades the body's organs and damages the circulatory system.
> During the Toronto scare the mortality rate was 30-50%. However with more advanced treatments now, it is 15-30%.
> 
> The Toronto area has faced various epidemics over the years; with the last being the SARS outbreak of 2003. Previous to SARS, Southern Ontario faced the threat of the deadly Lassa Fever.
> 
> Pat Fxxxxxx and I were working a night shift on August 2nd, 1976.  At approximately 01:30 we received a call to respond to Terminal One at the airport for a collapse. Upon arrival we located a collapsed female just outside Canada Customs with a laceration to her head. We treated this patient as a suspected cardiac patient based on her signs and symptoms and transported her to Etobicoke General hospital.
> 
> Two weeks later we were contacted and told to report to Etobicoke General Hospital the next morning at 07:30 for follow-up regarding a patient we had carried a few weeks previously. No reasons offered, just be there.
> Upon arriving at the EGH employee health clinic the next morning we soon learned that we had cared for a Lassa Fever patient and there was a strong possibility that we may have been infected. Persons having contact with this patient were required to go through daily blood tests, temperature monitoring and assessment for any signs of this illness. Included in this group were one hundred and forty hospital staff.
> 
> That same morning, the Minister of Health placed a quarantine on Etobicoke General Hospital. Only seriously ill patients remained and others were discharged. Police guards insured that no one could enter, and the emergency department was shut down.
> 
> It was further decided that Pat and I were to be assigned to an isolation ambulance on night shift with the responsibility to care for and transport any suspected cases of Lassa Fever in southern Ontario. I suspect the feeling at the time was if anyone was going to catch it, it might as well be the Medics that probably have it already rather than risk others.
> There were 407 passengers and a crew of 18 on this flight from England. Many of these people had since spread out all over Canada and around the world.
> 
> The Public Health authorities had the monumental task of trying to track down the potential carriers of this disease. Even though general alerts were issued to all Doctors and health institutions, only 165 possible contacts had been located after the first five days of this alert.
> 
> The 12 station crew of Vince Dxxx and John Fxxxx who also attended to another patient off the same flight that night, were assigned to the day shift isolation ambulance.
> On our first night at 12 station (which was then located in the hospital service bays behind Etobicoke General Hospital),I realized that we did not have any infection gowns and other equipment. I was directed to enter the hospital and seek out such equipment. It was not until I did this (passing through the Police Guard) that I began to realize how serious this situation was. The hospital was a ghost town with only a few cleaners inside gowned and masked, scrubbing down all the walls and floors.
> 
> Since 12 station was strictly out of bounds to all other Medics the shifts were quiet, with the exception of periodically responding to the emergency entrance to care for someone until another ambulance could arrive or waking up the odd standby crew who dozed off.
> One night the hospital had all it's phone lines accidentally cut by a contractor, which caused a complete communication breakdown.
> 
> By the eighth morning, our arms were getting sore from the daily blood tests. It was at this point that the hospital officials made a diagnosis that I may have also contracted LASSA FEVER.
> I was immediately masked, the clinic was cleared, two fully isolated nurses then escourted me from the basement clinic to the 9th floor isolation area.
> As I was being escorted through the halls, the few people remaining in the hospital were warned to stand clear, because a "Lassa Fever" patient was coming through. I now know what a condemned prisoner feels when going to the gallows. I was escourted to a room adjacent to the infected patient I had brought in three weeks earlier.  In the background, I could hear her respirator working as I was given strict orders that I was not permitted to leave the room under any circumstances.
> 
> What started out as a routine call for a collapse had now turned out to be my death sentence.
> This is a warning to everyone! It is usually the cases that you do not suspect that will come back to haunt you.
> Later that morning, the specialists deemed me not to be infected and permitted me to leave. I think I was out of there before they finished their sentence.
> 
> The media reported this event daily, similar to what occurred during the SARS outbreak.
> Dr. Charles Godfrey, N. D. P.,  M.P.P. for Durham West, was quoted in the Aug 14, 1976 edition of the Toronto star as saying.
> 
> " There is no doubt that a major outbreak of a contagious disease is coming to Metro." "We have been lucky and putting suspected patients in a general hospital is no way to control it." He went on to further indicate that the province should set up special isolation units to contain similar future outbreaks.
> The Aug 18 , 1976  edition of the Toronto Star further reported.
> " Hotel spokesmen indicate that the fear of Lassa Fever is keeping some U.S. tourists away from Toronto." Sound familiar?
> 
> There were many lessons learned by this emergency, and it proved that the province was not prepared for such events.
> As a result of this event, new infectious control guidelines were developed, and an ambulance was converted into a dedicated infectious patient ambulance, to deal with similar situations.
> 
> Unfortunately it was not until the  2003 SARS outbreak that we soon learned how unprepared we actually were. Since that outbreak,  infection control procedures have greatly improved and once again an "infectious patient ambulance" has been built.
> 
> As for the patient who was admitted with Lassa Fever, she eventually recovered and was discharged from hospital.
> 
> Once again we survived a deadly event.


----------



## tomahawk6

I was watching the news this evening and they reported on how the virus spread through the plumbing pipes infecting 2 people in an apartment building who were 10 floors apart.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Video floating around purporting to show officials welding doors shut to contain the infected.


----------



## daftandbarmy

How many blackbirds can you bake in a pie? Ask this guy....


Bag of dead birds from China confiscated from passenger at US airport

https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-us-officials-confiscate-bag-of-dead-birds-from-chinese-plane-passenger-20200211


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I was watching the news this evening and they reported on how the virus spread through the plumbing pipes infecting 2 people in an apartment building who were 10 floors apart.


More on that ...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/12/asia/hong-kong-coronavirus-pipes-intl-hnk/index.html


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Video floating around purporting to show officials welding doors shut to contain the infected.


More on that ...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10925668/coronavirus-patients-welded-homes-china/
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/columnists/story/2020-02-12/column-life-in-china-under-the-coronavirus-threat

Meanwhile, latest stats attached - the big jump is reportedly because of new diagnostic criteria:


> ... “From today on, we will include the number of clinically diagnosed cases into the number of confirmed cases so that patients could receive timely treatment,” the health authority said. Previously, patients could only be diagnosed by test kits, which has seen a shortage of supply across the country ...


----------



## Spencer100

US military starts prepping

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/02/13/us-military-prepping-for-coronavirus-pandemic/


----------



## Spencer100

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Not normally the most reliable of sources but the daily beast has an article from two days ago highlighting the big unknown: what is happening in North Korea?  There are no reported cases yet there was a significant traffic flow between the two countries until well after the corona outbreak.  It seems highly unlikely that none of that traffic crossing the border had contact with the virus and the health system in NK is totally incapable of dealing with an epidemic of any nature.  That possibility is very scarey



It looks like they just shoot them

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/breaking-north-korea-executes-coronavirus-21488604


----------



## The Bread Guy

Am I the only one hearing _"I'm doing my part!"_ when looking at this graphic being shared by Chinese military media***?

*** - edited to link to archive.org save of original page.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Yeah ... sooooo...don’t click on web links from the Chinese government from a DND or corporate computer, and please do not download their image files.  :tsktsk:

Ours are fine  :nod:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

At a cadet change of command parade tonight at Seaforth's. I suppose it's a coincidence that there were a whole bunch of NBC suits and gloves hang over the balcony to air out?  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Yeah ... sooooo...don’t click on web links from the Chinese government from a DND or corporate computer, and please do not download their image files.  :tsktsk:
> 
> Ours are fine  :nod:


Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## mariomike

Anyone remember Jim Bakker? ( Convicted and sentenced to federal prison for eight counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy. )
https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1227657884395327489/video/1


----------



## The Bread Guy

Aircrew #2 good to go ...


> Further to my previous statements, as Chief Public Health Officer, I have assessed additional individuals in quarantine at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Trenton pursuant to an Emergency Order under the Quarantine Act and determined that they do not pose a risk of significant harm to public health.
> 
> I have authorized the release of 23 flight crew members who accompanied the returning travellers on the second Canada-chartered flight from Wuhan to Vancouver to CFB Trenton. In my assessment, I took into account the fact that they did not spend time in the epicentre of the outbreak, that they followed appropriate infection prevention and control protocols (including the use of personal protective equipment), and that they did not have unprotected contact with passengers or persons at risk of having the novel coronavirus. As a result of this assessment, I have determined that their continued quarantine is not required.


... and more folks coming back to Canada:


> The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Health, and the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, today announced that the Government of Canada has chartered a plane to repatriate Canadians on board the Diamond Princess cruise ship docked in Yokohama, Japan.
> 
> This decision was taken because of the extraordinary circumstances faced by passengers on the Diamond Princess and to lighten the burden on the Japanese health-care system. We are working closely with Carnival Cruise Lines and the Government of Japan to assist in this evacuation.
> 
> The aircraft will bring passengers from Japan to Canadian Forces Base Trenton, after which they will be assessed and transported to the NAV Canada Training Institute in Cornwall, Ontario, to undergo a further 14-day period of quarantine.
> 
> Before boarding in Japan, passengers will be screened for symptoms. Those who exhibit symptoms of COVID-19 will not be permitted to board and will instead be transferred to the Japanese health system to receive appropriate care.
> 
> Those who remain in Japan will continue to receive full consular services from the Government of Canada.
> 
> In addition to experts from the Public Health Agency of Canada and Canadian Armed Forces medical personnel, four members of the Standing Rapid Deployment Team (SRDT) are on the ground in Tokyo to assist Canadians during this difficult time ...



Edited to add latest numbers, attached ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ...

_*"At least 32 Canadians test positive for COVID-19 on board quarantined ship: government"*_ (Global News)
_*"Canadians on coronavirus-hit cruise ship await repatriation as Americans land home"*_ (CBC)
_*" The Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions is warning that the federal public health agency’s guidelines to protect front-line health-care workers from outbreaks of diseases like the novel coronavirus don’t go far enough, and might be putting them and patients at risk ..."*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"Coronavirus: Largest study suggests elderly and sick are most at risk"*_ (BBC)
_*"Japan plans HIV drug trials to fight coronavirus as Diamond Princess cases rise"*_ (Reuters)
_*"Apple warns coronavirus will hurt iPhone supplies"*_ (BBC)
Latest #'s from Johns Hopkins attached.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

A FB post from a discussion on how a epidemic in the US might impact the upcoming US elections:

 The election impact is fascinating to game out.
In theory, quarantines will happen in urban and suburban areas. This will disproportionately impact Blue areas, which should skew the election(s) Red.
HOWEVER ...
Quarantines could see emergency measures to implement ballot harvesting, voting by phone, etc ... which would skew the election(s) Blue.
It’s even possible (dare I say likely?) that such measures would be imposed by the courts, if the other branches of government fail to act.
Most interesting is the prospect of delaying the election. For all the talk of Trump being an anti-democratic autocrat, in the event of quarantines it would be in his interests to allow the elections to proceed as scheduled, while it would be the Democrats urging postponement. Indeed, again, the courts could step in to force such a postponement.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Colin P said:
			
		

> HOWEVER ...
> Quarantines could see emergency measures to implement ballot harvesting, voting by phone, etc ... which would skew the election(s) Blue.
> It%u2019s even possible (dare I say likely?) that such measures would be imposed by the courts, if the other branches of government fail to act.
> Most interesting is the prospect of delaying the election. For all the talk of Trump being an anti-democratic autocrat, in the event of quarantines it would be in his interests to allow the elections to proceed as scheduled, while it would be the Democrats urging postponement. Indeed, again, the courts could step in to force such a postponement.


 
The possibility of postponing a general election in the US has been considered before (maybe several times before), so this 2004 Congressional Research Service report, "Executive Branch Power to Postpone Elections", is probably a good read before getting into what-if. 

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32471.pdf


> Summary
> 
> Because of the continuing threat of terrorism, concerns have been raised about
> the potential for terrorist events to occur close to or during the voting process for the
> November 2004 elections. For instance, the question has been raised as to whether
> a sufficiently calamitous event could result in the postponement of the election, and
> what mechanisms are in place to deal with such an event. This report focuses on who
> has the constitutional authority to postpone elections, to whom such power could be
> delegated, and what legal limitations exist to such a postponement.
> 
> Traditionally, all voting %u2014 whether federal, state or local %u2014 occurs in local
> precinct polling places, and state or local authorities have a significant role in
> regulating such voting. Congress, however, also has authority to regulate elections,
> and that authority may vary depending on whether the election is for the Presidency,
> the House, the Senate, or for state or local offices. While the Executive Branch has
> significant delegated authority regarding some aspects of election law, this authority
> does not currently extend to setting or changing the times of elections.
> 
> Under a variety of possible scenarios that could arise as a result of a terrorist
> attack before or during an election, either the Congress or the states might pass
> legislation which would affect the timing of these elections. The suggestion has been
> made, however, that the Executive Branch might have some role in determining
> whether an election is to occur or whether it can be cancelled. While the Executive
> Branch does not currently have this power, it appears that Congress may be able to
> delegate this power to the Executive Branch by enacting a statute.



There has been no change in applicable legislation since.


----------



## Spencer100

It came from Space!   :Tin-Foil-Hat:


https://www.eg24.news/2020/02/corona-virus-came-from-space-inside-a-meteorite-hitting-china.html?fbclid=IwAR3JdzlC24JDIkVNNj5mDIg7HcF8PAweU7rp7RiJjWVd9SvYbVi4r2ZI20Y


----------



## ModlrMike




----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:
			
		

> Anyone remember Jim Bakker? ( Convicted and sentenced to federal prison for eight counts of mail fraud, 15 counts of wire fraud and one count of conspiracy. )
> https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1227657884395327489/video/1




The comments under the video are pretty hilarious


----------



## NavyShooter

Came across a video last night that spoke to analysing the numbers from the cruise ship - rather than those from China.

The cruise ship is an interesting microcosm that enables examination of accurate numbers.

The percentages were - concerning - the estimate based on that is that there are between 15-20% of people who get infected that will have severe respiratory distress possible.  Of those, if the Chinese model follows, then approximately 2-3% will die.

The other interesting takeaway was the mention of hospital screening criteria - with the focus being on the VO2 capacity on arrival at the hospital - apparently 93% is a trigger number for higher level protocols/responses.

The video also delved into some of the anecdotal concerns respecting financial impacts in the supply chains that are going to be creeping into the limelight soon.

It also mentioned that as of 13 Feb, there are now quarantine zones outside of China over in Vietnam, which is a 'new thing' - this being the first major quarantine city/town outside of China.

I'll see if I can dig up the video when I get home tonight.  As always, I take it with a grain of salt...


----------



## Remius

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Came across a video last night that spoke to analysing the numbers from the cruise ship - rather than those from China.
> 
> The cruise ship is an interesting microcosm that enables examination of accurate numbers.
> 
> The percentages were - concerning - the estimate based on that is that there are between 15-20% of people who get infected that will have severe respiratory distress possible.  Of those, if the Chinese model follows, then approximately 2-3% will die.
> 
> The other interesting takeaway was the mention of hospital screening criteria - with the focus being on the VO2 capacity on arrival at the hospital - apparently 93% is a trigger number for higher level protocols/responses.
> 
> The video also delved into some of the anecdotal concerns respecting financial impacts in the supply chains that are going to be creeping into the limelight soon.
> 
> It also mentioned that as of 13 Feb, there are now quarantine zones outside of China over in Vietnam, which is a 'new thing' - this being the first major quarantine city/town outside of China.
> 
> I'll see if I can dig up the video when I get home tonight.  As always, I take it with a grain of salt...



A cruise ship is likely no the best for accuracy unless looking at cruise ships.  

1) Close quarters and shared spaces makes it easy for transmission. Cram 5000 people in what amounts to a floating hotel and disease can spread way faster. 
2) Those types of cruises (and I would suspect that Diamond Princess might be one) have a proportionately higher elderly population

So one can understand why they would have a high level of respiratory distress cases.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Remius said:
			
		

> A cruise ship is likely no the best for accuracy unless looking at cruise ships.
> 
> 1) Close quarters and shared spaces makes it easy for transmission. Cram 5000 people in what amounts to a floating hotel and disease can spread way faster.
> 2) Those types of cruises (and I would suspect that Diamond Princess might be one) have a proportionately higher elderly population
> 
> So one can understand why they would have a high level of respiratory distress cases.



Concerning point #1 - I would suggest that a cruise ship would be a nice comparison to a place like Hong Kong, the most densely populated place in the world.


----------



## Remius

A valid point and it could to an extent show how it might spread in the workplace. There are thousands of people at my work campus.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> A valid point and it could to an extent show how it might spread in the workplace. There are thousands of people at my work campus.



Rear echelon workplaces may be forced to take precautions to maintain optimal functioning.

eg: During SARS, Toronto Emergency ( Fire and Paramedic ) Services Headquarters was off-limits to frontline staff for the duration of the outbreak. 

All HQ personnel had to be screened for SARS-like symptoms before entering.


----------



## a_majoor

Strategypage looks at some of the follow on economic effects:

https://strategypage.com/on_point/2020021981721.aspx



> On Point: Coronavirus Epidemic Tests the World's Economic Vigor
> 
> by Austin Bay
> February 19, 2020
> China's coronavirus disease 2019 (Covid-19) continues to take human lives. The Chinese people have suffered the most in terms of total cases and lives lost. The epidemic began in Wuhan, capital of the Hubei province. As I write this column, Hubei has had 60,000 confirmed cases and almost 1,800 deaths.
> 
> Covid-19, however, has escaped China's political borders. The World Health Organization's Feb. 18 Covid-19 "Situation Report 29" declared that 25 countries have clinically diagnosed Covid-19 cases, and many are laboratory-confirmed. As of Feb. 17, WHO had sent virus laboratory testing kits to 34 countries. Eventually, 56 countries will receive them.
> 
> WHO's Risk Assessment index rated the virus' global health threat level as "High."
> 
> Though it is no economy killer, Covid-19 does threaten the world's economic vigor. That is not a surprise. The current trade war between the U.S. and China has only begun to decouple their economies.
> 
> China's communist government must import natural resources (oil and minerals) to keep its industry humming. It also imports some foodstuffs that have domestic political impact. Since a swine virus devastated its pig farms, China relies on U.S. pork to appease the palates of its oppressed but increasingly restless citizens.
> 
> In the last three weeks, a spate of corporate and governmental announcements shows the U.S. and Chinese economies remain entwined.
> 
> For example, Apple warned investors that the coronavirus epidemic will prevent it from meeting first-quarter profit expectations. Domestic Chinese demand for Apple products has declined sharply. The epidemic has also disrupted iPhone production in China. Apple remains a blue chip company, but it faces demand and supply chain problems.
> 
> The epidemic has also disrupted the world's largest mobile phone industry trade show, the Mobile World Congress. On Feb. 12, the MWC decided to cancel its annual Barcelona conference. Fear the disease may spread is one reason, but travel restrictions from East Asia would have reduced attendance.
> 
> On Feb. 14, The Wall Street Journal examined the epidemic's effect on auto industry manufacturing. Once again the big factor is supply chain disruption. Hyundai and Renault have slowed production on selected assembly lines in South Korea. Fiat-Chrysler is halting car production at its factory in Kragujevac, Serbia, because the facility relies on Chinese-made parts. North America is not decoupled. The Journal quoted a United Automobile Workers source who warned that General Motors' Arlington, Texas, assembly plant may face a shortage of Chinese-made components.
> 
> The Chinese National Immigration Agency has reported that 133 countries have imposed entry restrictions on Chinese citizens or individuals who have visited China. For health reasons, the quarantines are mandatory and must be enforced. But they exact economic costs, obvious and hidden. For example, Chinese companies operate several globally important mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Typically, Chinese nationals fill the critical skilled-worker positions. Movement restrictions could "extend the timelines" for manufacturing projects relying on Congolese minerals from Chinese-operated mines.
> 
> A recent Reuters report provided a superb example of economic disruption attributable to a quarantine. The state-owned China Railway International Group's high-speed rail project in Indonesia is one of Beijing's marquee Belt and Road Initiative megaventures. Key managers and technical workers who went to China for the Chinese New Year cannot return to Indonesia. The project now faces major delays.
> 
> The virus bugs the oil business, with Iran a definite loser. China has been Iran's biggest buyer, importing roughly 300,000 barrels a day in 2019. Reduced economic activity lowers China's demand for oil. According to The Wall Street Journal, U.S. government officials attribute some of China's decline in demand to the domestic transit restrictions. People can't travel.
> 
> Thus, Covid-19 exacerbates Iran's economic maladies. Are the ayatollahs blaming their best customer? No, they will find a way to blame America for the disease.



Second and third order effects will likely be rippling through the economy for months to years to come.


----------



## brihard

Some updates:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/coronavirus-bc-update-1.5470757 - New presumptive case in BC. Woman just traveled back from Iran last week. No apparent China connection. Iran is presently seeing an increase in cases. She has been in contact with others, and a number of close family are now self-isolating. She attended a pulic hospital with symptoms.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/02/21/coronavirus-diamond-princess-cruise-evacuees-test-positive-nebraska/4829248002/ - 11 of 13 Americans who returned to Nebraska from the cruis ship Diamond Princess have tested positive. Looks like that shit was quite the breeding ground.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/diamond-princess-coronavirus-trenton-cornwall-1.5470386 - 151 passengers, flight crew, and medical staff are being quarantined at the Nav Canada facility in Cornwall for two weeks. The bulk of these people are passengers from the Diamond Princess. None have so far tested positive for Coronavirus. Note that Japan was reporting new cases on.from that ship up to and beyond the day that these passengers were removed to be brought home. My gut feel on this is that it's very likely some are infected but are still within the incubation period. Cornwall will probably see cases. That cruise ship was a hotbed of infection.

We have been lucky so far. Unfortunately there looks to be more and more leakage of the virus outside of China, and independent transmission chains in places like Iran, Japan, Singapore, South Korea... No 'fire' yet outside of China, but a lot of embers blowing in the wind.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> ... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/diamond-princess-coronavirus-trenton-cornwall-1.5470386 - 151 passengers, flight crew, and medical staff are being quarantined at the Nav Canada facility in Cornwall for two weeks. The bulk of these people are passengers from the Diamond Princess. None have so far tested positive for Coronavirus. Note that Japan was reporting new cases on.from that ship up to and beyond the day that these passengers were removed to be brought home. My gut feel on this is that it's very likely some are infected but are still within the incubation period. Cornwall will probably see cases. That cruise ship was a hotbed of infection ...


And local media coverage not too far away:  _*"129 Canadians quarantined for coronavirus just across border from Massena (NY)"*_

Meanwhile, two approaches to showing the flag ...

_*"Health minister to visit quarantine zone at CFB Trenton"*_
_*"Ukraine’s health minister joined evacuees from China in quarantine in a sanatorium on Friday in a show of solidarity after fears over the possible spread of the coronavirus led to clashes between protesters and police ..."*_

Latest from Johns Hopkins & WHO attached.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

from News 1130 
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/02/22/italy-towns-effective-lockdown-virus/

CODOGNO, Italy (AP) — A dozen towns in northern Italy effectively went into lockdowns Saturday after the deaths of two people infected with COVID-19 and a growing cluster of cases with no direct links to the origin of the outbreak abroad.

The secondary contagions prompted local authorities in the Lombardy and Veneto regions to close schools, businesses and restaurants and to cancel sporting events and Masses. The mayor of Milan, the business capital of Italy, shuttered public offices.

Hundreds of residents and workers who came into contact with an estimated 54 people confirmed infected in Italy were in isolation pending test results. Civil protection crews set up a tent camp outside a closed hospital in Veneto to screen medical staff for the virus.

In the town of Codogno, where the first patient identified in the northern cluster was in critical condition, main street was practically a ghost town Saturday, with supermarkets, restaurants and businesses closed. The few people out on the streets were wearing coveted face masks, which were nearly impossible to find in sold-out pharmacies.

The president of Lombardy, Attilio Fontana, said there were 39 confirmed cases in the region, where 10 towns received orders to suspend nonessential activities and services. An elderly woman who died tested positive for the virus, though it wasn’t clear if that is what caused her death.

The Veneto region reported 12 people with the virus, including a 78-year-old man who died late Friday. Two of the region’s confirmed infections are in relatives of the man who died, Veneto regional president Luca Zaia said..

Zaia said Saturday that the contagion showed that the virus is transmitted like any other flu, and that trying to pinpoint a single source of infection or one with direct links to China is no longer effective.

“You can get it from anyone,” he told reporters. “We can expect to have cases of patients who had no contact” with suspected carriers. While the virus isn’t particularly lethal, it can be for the elderly or people with existing conditions, he said.

The head of the Lombardy health and welfare ministry, Giulio Gallera, said the region’s 39 cases all were connected to the first patient to fall ill there, with patients acquiring the infection either via direct contact with him or the hospital in Codogno where he first received treatment on Feb. 18.

National and regional officials approved an ordinance that put 10 Lombardy towns around Lodi, southeast of Milan, after the region reported a quadrupling of cases Friday. But individual cities outside the area covered by the ordinance, such as Cremona, issued their own restrictions after confirming there were local cases.

The number of confirmed infections rapidly changed, but by Saturday stood at 54 nationwide: 39 in Lombardy, 12 in Veneto and the three in Rome that were Italy’s only cases until the clusters emerged in the north Friday.

Authorities urged calm, but acknowledged that the clusters were alarming given the secondary contagions. The first man to be confirmed as infected in Lombardy had met with someone who had returned from China on Jan. 21, but remains without symptoms.

The infected man worked at a Unilever plant near Codogno, and more than 100 of his colleagues were being kept in isolation pending test results.

In Rome, doctors at the Spallanzani infectious disease hospital treating the first three people in Italy found to be infected with the virus – a Chinese couple from Wuhan and an Italian who contracted the virus in China – reported encouraging news in the otherwise bleak day.

The Italian patient, who tested positive for the virus two weeks ago, was cleared to leave the hospital, while one of the Chinese visitors tested negative for the virus for the first time.

Separately Saturday, 19 Italians who spent more than two weeks quarantined on a virus-stricken cruise liner in Japan landed at Rome’s military Pratica di Mare airport. They had been stranded on the Diamond Princess since Feb. 5.

Following the first health checks and decontamination process, the passengers were transferred to the military campus of Cecchignola where they will spend a 14-day isolation period.

Britain also welcomed home passengers from the Diamond Princess: 32 British and other European passengers landed at a British military base in southwest England. They will be quarantined for 14 days at Arrowe Park hospital in northwest England, where more than 80 other Britons evacuated from Wuhan, the Chinese city at the center of the outbreak, have already spent time in isolation.

Four U.K. nationals from the Diamond Princess who tested positive for the virus are being treated at hospitals in Japan.

Britain has nine confirmed cases of the virus.

_- mod edit to add link -_


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Coronavirus incubation could be as long as 27 days, Chinese provincial government says*
> 
> _Reuters_
> 
> A 70-year-old man in China’s Hubei Province was infected with coronavirus but did not show symptoms until 27 days later, the local government said on Saturday, meaning the virus’ incubation period could be much longer than the presumed 14 days.
> 
> A longer incubation period could complicate efforts to contain spread of the epidemic that has so far killed more than 2,000 people and spread outside China.
> 
> The man, only identified by his family name, Jiang, on Jan. 24 drove his car back to Shennongjia, in northwestern Hubei, from eastern Ezhou, where he had close contact with his sister, who had been infected, according to the government website of Hubei, the virus epicentre.
> 
> He had a fever on Feb. 20 and tested positive for coronavirus a day later, according to the government statement.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-china-health-incubation-idUKKCN20G072


----------



## BeyondTheNow

New presumptive case of novel coronavirus confirmed in Toronto



> ...”As per established infection, prevention and control protocols, the patient was cared for at North York General Hospital using all appropriate precautions including being isolated and was tested for COVID-19," the ministry said in a news release issued Sunday afternoon.
> 
> 
> "Being mildly ill, the woman was discharged home and, per protocols, went into self-isolation."
> 
> As a result, the ministry said it has been following up with the patient ever since, adding that a sample has been sent to the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg for confirmation.
> 
> "Given the individual's clinical assessment and history, there is a low risk that she was infectious," the ministry said.
> 
> The woman followed all safety protocols and wore a mask throughout her travels back to Toronto, the ministry said. Now, the province says it is coordinating with local public health units to ensure that passengers in close proximity to the woman on the plane are contacted and monitored...



https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/new-presumptive-case-of-novel-coronavirus-confirmed-in-toronto-1.4824209


----------



## The Bread Guy

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> New presumptive case of novel coronavirus confirmed in Toronto


Gov't of Ontario's version as of 1735 Eastern ...


> Today, Dr. David Williams, Chief Medical Officer of Health, confirmed a new  presumptive positive case of the 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19) in Toronto. Ontario's first three cases are all resolved, with each of those patients having two consecutive negative tests at least 24 hours apart.
> 
> On February 21, an adult woman arrived to Canada from China and presented at North York General Hospital's emergency department at the advice of Telehealth Ontario with an intermittent cough that was improving.
> 
> As per established infection, prevention and control protocols, the patient was cared for at North York General Hospital using all appropriate precautions including being isolated and was tested for COVID-19. Being mildly ill, the woman was discharged home and, per protocols, went into self-isolation.
> 
> Toronto Public Health was notified and has been following up with the patient since. The Public Health Ontario Laboratory confirmed today (February 23) that the laboratory testing for COVID-19 is presumptive positive, with the sample now having been sent to the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg for confirmation.
> 
> Given the individual's clinical assessment and history, there is a low risk that she was infectious. The individual followed all protocols and wore a mask throughout her travels back to Toronto and, since landing, the woman has had very limited exposure to other individuals. The province is coordinating with local public health units to ensure that passengers in close proximity to the woman on the plane are contacted and monitored.
> 
> "Because of all the proper protocols and procedures that are in place to contain this virus and exposure to others was limited, I want to assure the public that the risk to Ontarians remains low," said Dr. Williams. "Protecting the health and well-being of individuals and families across the province remains our top priority and we continue to vigilantly monitor for and contain any and all new cases."
> 
> Dr. David Williams and Dr. Barbara Yaffe, Associate Chief Medical Officer of Health, will be joined by Dr. Eileen de Villa, Medical Officer of Health for Toronto, to provide an update on the situation at a 9:00 a.m. briefing tomorrow (February 24) at the Queen's Park media studio ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Just idle thoughts regarding Canada and in particular Vancouver:

Early in the epidemic phase, affluent people will be at higher risk a they are more likely to interact with someone who travels globally and higher likelihood of transmission. Full fledged pandemic, they are at lower risk, as they can afford to stay away from work, won't be taking tranist and can order goods to their door, plus afford masks and other stuffs to protect themselves.

Full fledged pandemic, drug addicts that OD are going to die as there will be no one to treat or respond and no room in the ER. Chronic ill people are going to suffer as well.

My daughter who was recently diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes will be home schooled if the virus starts spreading here, she is already to high of a risk for any flu at this stage, much less this.


----------



## The Bread Guy

You know they take this seriously when ....


> Populist Iraqi Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr suspended a call for his followers to hold massive protests against his political opponents due to fears over the spread of coronavirus on Tuesday, minutes after the health ministry urged citizens to avoid public gatherings ...


Latest Johns Hopkins & WHO stats attached ...


----------



## OldSolduer

No doubt some religious zealot will take this opportunity to slam (whatever demographic you like) with "This is God's (or whatever deity they like) retribution for being (Pick a behavior).


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> No doubt some religious zealot will take this opportunity to slam (whatever demographic you like) with "This is God's (or whatever deity they like) retribution for being (Pick a behavior).


Sadly   ...
_*"Evangelical pastor claims coronavirus is God’s ‘death angel’ to ‘purge a lot of sin’ "*_


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Starting to wrap my head around the possibility of shutting down our Navy League Corp, what to do about uniforms and promotions, etc. Be a lot of disappointed kids and we lose out on the knowledge transfer from our outgoing NCO's to the next crop.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Some spooky videos out there of China and hazmat teams chasing citizens down and man handling them into vans.


----------



## Remius

Have you seen the videos of teams going around fumigating streets with some unknown gas/fumes?

WTF...


----------



## Czech_pivo

This is coming out on CNBC from the CDC.  Similar story line in the Ottawa Citizen today from our Meds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/25/cdc-outlines-what-closing-schools-businesses-would-look-like-in-us-pandemic.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in Iran:  _*"Iran's deputy health minister tests positive for coronavirus"*_


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> Have you seen the videos of teams going around fumigating streets with some unknown gas/fumes?
> 
> WTF...


Family dragged from home
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLirQXbJrNA


This outta send the chemtrail types for a spin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAKFrXC2boo


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Colin P said:
			
		

> Starting to wrap my head around the possibility of shutting down our Navy League Corp, what to do about uniforms and promotions, etc. Be a lot of disappointed kids and we lose out on the knowledge transfer from our outgoing NCO's to the next crop.



Navy League Corps? You mean Cadets?

Why would a cadet corps be shut down over Coronavirus? Is this something your corps is seriously looking at doing?


----------



## Czech_pivo

It’s almost like they are trying to kill all the birds......


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in Kingston ...


> An email sent out to Royal Military College of Canada employees says four cadets are in isolation at the Kingston military base as a precautionary measure, after one of the cadets travelled by plane with a B.C. passenger who was later confirmed to have COVID-19.
> 
> The email, written by Brigadier-General Sebastien Bouchard, Commandant of RMC was sent to staff Monday evening.
> 
> Global News has obtained two identical copies of this email from two separate employees who sent the emails independent of each other. The Department of National Defence confirmed the details of the commandant’s email Tuesday evening.
> 
> Bouchard’s email said one of their cadets was informed by British Columbia health authorities Feb. 23 that they may have been “potentially exposed to the virus during an overnight flight from Montreal to Vancouver” over Feb. 13 to Feb. 14.
> 
> “One of the passengers on that flight later tested positive as a presumptive confirmed case,” the email read.
> 
> Bouchard continued, saying the other three cadets now in isolation at CFB Kingston were in proximity of the other cadet after the latter returned to campus from Montreal on Feb. 23.
> 
> The cadets reportedly self-isolated in their rooms the night of Feb. 23, and visited the college’s medical unit early Feb. 24 ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ...

_*"COVID-19: Remaining Canadians quarantined at CFB Trenton released"*_ (Global News)
_*"Air Canada extends China flight cancellations to April 10 over COVID-19 outbreak"*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"Ontario Confirms Positive Case of COVID-19"*_ (Ontario Ministry of Health)
_*"The threat of the COVID-19 (novel coronavirus) infecting residents of Cornwall remains low, according to the Eastern Ontario Health Unit’s (EOHU) medical officer of health Dr. Paul Roumeliotis ..."*_ (_Kingston Whig-Standard_)
_*"Fear around coronavirus spreading in Cornwall, top doctor cautions"*_ (CBC via Yahoo.ca)
_*" ‘Nowhere to go’: Canadians in Iran ask for consular help amid COVID-19 outbreak"*_ (The Canadian Press)
_*"PLA offers free life insurance for medics fighting COVID-19"*_ (CHN military media)***
_*"Wang Qinglin, a 46-year-old militiaman, drove from Xuzhou in East China's Jiangsu province to Huoshenshan Hospital in Wuhan on Tuesday to deliver 50,000 diapers.  Diapers are necessary for medics working on the front line, the group tries their best to ensure all resources get to the medics, said Mao Hongshan, office director of the leading group of Epidemic Prevention and Control of Hubei Military Region ..."*_ (CHN military media)***
[*]_*"Hubei prison officials punished after COVID19 outbreak confirmed"*_ (CHN state media)***

[sup]*** - Links to archive.org version of story to avoid linking directly to CHN government media sites


----------



## tomahawk6

The panic over this virus is crazy. Stock market is lost what 2000 points in two days ? Sanity will prevail at some point. The flu remains a far greater killer IMO. A US soldier in Korea tested positive so now the search is on how he got it.


----------



## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The panic over this virus is crazy. Stock market is lost what 2000 points in two days ? Sanity will prevail at some point. The flu remains a far greater killer IMO. A US soldier in Korea tested positive so now the search is on how he got it.



The flu doesn’t close down major supply chains across Southeast Asia. The stock hits are in large part due to real, tangible impacts on the abilities of companies to manufacture goods and move them to market.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=tomahawk6]The flu remains a far greater killer IMO. 
[/quote]

1 in 29 people who contract the flu die?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 1 in 29 people who contract the flu die?


To compare, CDC says (very roughly averaged & rounded) between Oct 2019 and Feb 2020, about 1 out of 1228 people (average of ~35M got sick, ~28,500 died) who get the flu have died in the U.S.


----------



## OceanBonfire

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, in Kingston ...



"*Royal Military College cadet tests negative for COVID-19 virus*":

https://globalnews.ca/news/6599504/royal-military-college-cadet-negative-covid-19-coronavirus/


----------



## macarena

Hi, mates!
First confirmed case of Corona in Brazil: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/26/world/americas/brazil-italy-coronavirus.html   anic:
Let's hope the best!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

if your planning on stockpiling it's already getting to late, no hand sanitizer to be found.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Not only do you have to worry about stockpiling masks, now you have to decide if you need to trim your facial hair.


----------



## PuckChaser

Good to know I can keep my Hitler stache and still be safe from Coronavirus. :facepalm:


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Not only do you have to worry about stockpiling masks, now you have to decide if you need to trim your facial hair.



I was re-FIT tested, and re-issued N95s, during a voluntary first aid / CPR / AED re-fresher for pensioners. 

I've always been clean shaven, so FIT testing is not an issue.

The SARS crisis was the toughest roadblock our department faced during my career. 

I think we learned from that experience, and those who are there now are better prepared for this one.


----------



## ModlrMike

This article gives some perspective:

Just how contagious is COVID-19?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *The Trump administration just backtracked and said a coronavirus vaccine would be affordable for Americans — after triggering massive blowback*
> 
> _- The Trump administration reversed itself on Thursday and said a coronavirus vaccine would be affordable for the American public after it generated a storm of criticism over the drug's potential high cost.
> - Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said he would guarantee public access to a vaccine.
> - Only a day earlier, he declined to do so and cited the need for financial involvement from the private sector.
> - The development of a vaccine that successfully treats COVID-19 is still far off — at least a year in the best case scenario._
> 
> 
> The Trump administration reversed itself on Thursday and said a coronavirus vaccine would be affordable for Americans amid a storm of criticism over its possible high cost.
> 
> Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told lawmakers during a congressional hearing that he would guarantee public access to a vaccine that treats COVID-19, the disease that the coronavirus causes.
> 
> "I have directed my teams that if we do any joint venture with a private enterprise, that we're cofunding the research and development program, that we would ensure there's access to the fruits of that, whether vaccine or therapeutics," Azar said.
> 
> The remarks come a day after Azar triggered massive blowback when he didn't promise a coronavirus vaccine would be financially accessible to most Americans.
> 
> "We would want to ensure that we work to make it affordable, but we can't control that price because we need the private sector to invest," Azar told lawmakers at another congressional hearing. "Price controls won't get us there."
> 
> Democrats immediately hit back. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said at a press conference on Thursday: "This would be a vaccine that is developed with the taxpayer dollars … and we think that should be available to everyone, not dependent on Big Pharma."
> 
> The development of a vaccine that successfully treats COVID-19 is still far off — at least a year in the best case scenario, given the rounds of rigorous testing involved on animals and humans.
> 
> Anthony Fauci, a top official at the National Institute of Health, said on Wednesday it would take between 12 and 18 months to create one and placed the focus on public-health measures instead to curb the virus' spread in the US.
> 
> The Trump administration is seeking a multibillion-dollar emergency spending package to fight the coronavirus, which has spread to over 47 countries from its point of origin in China. There are at least 60 confirmed cases in the US so far, most of which developed abroad.
> 
> At least $1 billion of the federal funding would be directed toward the creation of a vaccine, The Washington Post reported.
> 
> 
> https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-vaccine-affordable-says-trump-administration-2020-2


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest WHO & Johns Hopkins #'s ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Yes, it is worse than the flu: busting the coronavirus myths

Claim: ‘It is no more dangerous than winter flu’
Many individuals who get coronavirus will experience nothing worse than seasonal flu symptoms, but the overall profile of the disease, including its mortality rate, looks more serious. At the start of an outbreak the apparent mortality rate can be an overestimate if a lot of mild cases are being missed. But this week, a WHO expert suggested that this has not been the case with Covid-19. Bruce Aylward, who led an international mission to China to learn about the virus and the country’s response, said the evidence did not suggest that we were only seeing the tip of the iceberg. If borne out by further testing, this could mean that current estimates of a roughly 1% fatality rate are accurate. This would make Covid-19 about 10 times more deadly than seasonal flu, which is estimated to kill between 290,000 and 650,000 people a year globally.

Claim: ‘It only kills the elderly, so younger people can relax’
Most people who are not elderly and do not have underlying health conditions will not become critically ill from Covid-19. But the illness still has a higher chance of leading to serious respiratory symptoms than seasonal flu and there are other at-risk groups – health workers, for instance, are more vulnerable because they are likely to have higher exposure to the virus. The actions that young, healthy people take, including reporting symptoms and following quarantine instructions, will have an important role in protecting the most vulnerable in society and in shaping the overall trajectory of the outbreak.

Claim: ‘Face masks don’t work’
Wearing a face mask is not an iron clad guarantee that you won’t get sick – viruses can also transmit through the eyes and tiny viral particles, known as aerosols, can still penetrate masks. However, masks are effective at capturing droplets, which is the main transmission route of coronavirus, and some studies have estimated a roughly five-fold protection versus no barrier. If you are likely to be in close contact with someone infected, a mask cuts the chance of the disease being passed on. If you’re just walking around town and not in close contact with others, wearing a mask is unlikely to make any difference.

Claim: ‘You need to be with an infected person for 10 minutes’
For flu, some hospital guidelines define exposure as being within six feet of an infected person who sneezes or coughs for 10 minutes or longer. However, it is possible to be infected with shorter interactions or even by picking the virus up from contaminated surfaces, although this is thought to be a less common route of transmission.

Claim: ‘A vaccine could be ready within a few months’
Scientists were quick out of the gates in beginning development of a vaccine for the new coronavirus, helped by the early release of the genetic sequence by Chinese researchers. The development of a viable vaccine continues apace, with several teams now testing candidates in animal experiments. However, the incremental trials required before a commercial vaccine could be rolled out are still a lengthy undertaking – and an essential one to ensure that even rare side-effects are spotted. A commercially available vaccine within a year would be quick.

Claim: ‘If a pandemic is declared, there is nothing more we can do to stop the spread’
A pandemic is defined as worldwide spread of a new disease – but the exact threshold for declaring one is quite vague. In practice, the actions being taken would not change whether or not a pandemic is declared. Containment measures are not simply about eliminating the disease altogether. Delaying the onset of an outbreak or decreasing the peak is crucial in allowing health systems to cope with a sudden influx of patients.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/28/coronavirus-truth-myths-flu-covid-19-face-masks


----------



## brihard

The new Montreal case is concerning. She left Iran, then flew in from Doha to Montreal on Monday and immediately sought care with symptoms. So she was probably symptomatic on the flight. I checked the flight, and that’s 14+ hours on a 358+ pax aircraft. This being one of the major arterial flights from the Arabian Peninsula to Canada, we can safely assume passengers then scattered all over Canada’s major cities.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> The new Montreal case is concerning. She left Iran, then flew in from Doha to Montreal on Monday and immediately sought care with symptoms. So she was probably symptomatic on the flight. I checked the flight, and that’s 14+ hours on a 358+ pax aircraft. This being one of the major arterial flights from the Arabian Peninsula to Canada, we can safely assume passengers then scattered all over Canada’s major cities.



I bet there's a number of travelers whom if sick are going to risk coming back to Canada (or their home country) rather than getting stuck in a foreign country.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I bet there's a number of travelers whom if sick are going to risk coming back to Canada (or their home country) rather than getting stuck in a foreign country.



Yeah.

I flew Ottawa - Vancouver last night. The plane I was on came in to Vancouver yesterday morning from Seoul, SK and then did the YOW-YVR loop. The couple in the row behind us found used Kleenex stuffed beside the seat and up between the wall and the ceiling panels.  :facepalm: Fortunately they also had antiseptic wipes, and shared liberally with us. I picked up more on the way back.

When I get home I’m gonna do a bit of a grocery staples stock up. Nothing we won’t use in due course anyway, but enough that we can handle a few weeks if we need to.


----------



## ModlrMike

Wash your hands frequently, and use an ethanol based sanitizer when you can't. Something with 60% or more ethanol is recommended. Not all wipes or solutions are equal, so read the label.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If it's useful, it's likely already gone from the store shelves so if you see it, pick it up.


----------



## tomahawk6

Had lunch at my fav Chinese place and I noticed hand sanitzer on each table. First time I saw that. The good news is that I didn't get sick. But I noticed a big sign on the door seeking wait help so they must not be able to get help into the country from China.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *First coronavirus death in U.S. reported in Washington state*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-outbreak-death-toll-infections-latest-news-updates-2020-02-29/
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/high-school-student-washington-latest-coronavirus-community-spread/story?id=69301655&cid=clicksource_4380645_5_heads_hero_live_hero_hed
> 
> https://www.afp.com/en/news/15/first-coronavirus-death-us-soil-confirmed-trump-calls-calm-doc-1pg9bq4
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-usa/first-coronavirus-death-in-u-s-reported-in-washington-state-idUSKBN20N0UA


----------



## Spencer100

From down under
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/how-australia-defied-global-health-authority-on-coronavirus-20200228-p545hr.htmlhttps://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/how-australia-defied-global-health-authority-on-coronavirus-20200228-p545hr.html


----------



## macarena

macarena said:
			
		

> (...) First confirmed case of Corona in Brazil (...)


Second confirmed case in Brazil: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02/29/world/americas/29reuters-china-health-brazil.html   anic:   anic:


----------



## medicineman

Here is an interview with one of the infectious disease gods from the US:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f0GAuctVk8

MM


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Australia's first coronavirus death confirmed as former Diamond Cruise passenger*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-australia/australias-first-coronavirus-death-confirmed-as-former-diamond-cruise-passenger-idUSKBN20O17A
> 
> 
> *Thailand records first coronavirus death*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-thailand/thailand-records-first-coronavirus-death-health-official-idUSKBN20O1BC


----------



## Czech_pivo

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I bet there's a number of travelers whom if sick are going to risk coming back to Canada (or their home country) rather than getting stuck in a foreign country.



If they’re coming from Iran I think it’s safe to say that it’s not ‘foreign’ to them but visiting family.


----------



## daftandbarmy

'You Can't Hide Graveyards' Says Iran Lawmaker, Dismissing Official Coronavirus Death Toll 

A lawmaker who represents the people of Rasht in northern Iran in the parliament says the real COVID-19 death toll in Iran is far higher than official figures.

Iran's Health Ministry on Friday rose the coronavirus death toll to 34 but BBC's Persian Service says according to information it has received from sources in Iranian hospitals, the tally of the death toll in various Iranian cities until Thursday is at least 210. 

Gholam Ali Jafazadeh Imanabadi, MP for Rasht has urged state officials to present the real figures. "You may conceal the numbers, but you cannot hide graveyards," he said.

Some unverified footage on Iranian social media show people burying the dead in something like a mass grave in where is said to be the city of Langaroud in northern Iran.

Others in the same area have expressed concern over the short distance between Coronavirus victims' graves and residential homes.

https://en.radiofarda.com/a/lawmaker-in-iran-dismisses-official-coronavirus-death-toll/30460224.html


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Washington state confirms second U.S. coronavirus death; New York reports first case*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-health-usa/washington-state-confirms-second-u-s-coronavirus-death-new-york-reports-first-case-idUSKBN20O1WF
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/global-death-toll-coronavirus-reaches-3000-confirmed-cases/story?id=69319279


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest #'s as of this morning from Johns Hopkins & yesterday from WHO ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few headlines ...

_*“(Sunday), Dr. David Williams, Chief Medical Officer of Health, confirmed four new positive cases of COVID-19, bringing the total number of confirmed cases in Ontario to 15. Of these, the first three cases in the province are all resolved, with each of those patients having two consecutive negative tests at least 24 hours apart …”*_ (Ontario Ministry of Health)
_*“York Region reports three new positive cases of COVID-19, Toronto with one new case”*_ (The Canadian Press via CP24.com)
_*“Coronavirus outbreak: Vaccine to take ‘at least 20 months’ ”*_ (France24)
_*“Iran Coronavirus Deaths Mount, Including Senior Adviser To Iran’s Supreme Leader”*_ (USA govt funded media)
_*“Over 10,000 military medics working at front line in COVID-19 fight”*_ (CHN state media, but link goes to archive.org saved version of article)
_*"The Chinese city at the center of the coronavirus epidemic closed its first makeshift hospital, one of 16 hurriedly built to handle the epidemic, after it discharged the last recovered patients, state broadcaster CCTV reported on Monday ..."*_ (Reuters)


----------



## Czech_pivo

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A few headlines ...
> 
> _*“(Sunday), Dr. David Williams, Chief Medical Officer of Health, confirmed four new positive cases of COVID-19, bringing the total number of confirmed cases in Ontario to 15. Of these, the first three cases in the province are all resolved, with each of those patients having two consecutive negative tests at least 24 hours apart …”*_ (Ontario Ministry of Health)
> _*“York Region reports three new positive cases of COVID-19, Toronto with one new case”*_ (The Canadian Press via CP24.com)
> _*“Coronavirus outbreak: Vaccine to take ‘at least 20 months’ ”*_ (France24)
> _*“Iran Coronavirus Deaths Mount, Including Senior Adviser To Iran’s Supreme Leader”*_ (USA govt funded media)
> _*“Over 10,000 military medics working at front line in COVID-19 fight”*_ (CHN state media, but link goes to archive.org saved version of article)
> _*"The Chinese city at the center of the coronavirus epidemic closed its first makeshift hospital, one of 16 hurriedly built to handle the epidemic, after it discharged the last recovered patients, state broadcaster CCTV reported on Monday ..."*_ (Reuters)



I think that the news on this is just about ready to shift from China to here in N.A.  By the end of this week, into the weekend I've got a feeling the numbers here are going to start to spike upwards.  The next 2 weeks will be telling here.  Most new cases here (Canada) are now coming out of Iran, which leads to speculate that its alot worse there than what is being reported.


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Not only do you have to worry about stockpiling masks, now you have to decide if you need to trim your facial hair.



Anyone who has been fitted for a mask ( aka a FIT test - to test if it is going to work ) will know this. 

But, for anyone who has never been FIT tested, this demonstrates how to FIT test an N95,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl4qX6qEYXU



> Students enrolled in the Paramedicine program must be fitted for an N95 mask. In accordance with the CSA Standards (CSA Z94.4-2011) people with beards are not able to be fitted for tight fitting respirators, including N95 masks. The tight fitting respirators are not able to provide an effective seal along the wearers face when they have a beard and are therefore not functional. Without face mask fit certification, students cannot complete the requirements of the program.


----------



## tomahawk6

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/dr-matt-mccarthy-author-of-superbugs-suggests-coronavirus-numbers-from-korea-suggest-mortality-rate-close-to-flu-rather-than-something-worse-video/


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/dr-matt-mccarthy-author-of-superbugs-suggests-coronavirus-numbers-from-korea-suggest-mortality-rate-close-to-flu-rather-than-something-worse-video/


Or could it also show that single-payer health care systems like South Korea's increase the odds for people who get sick?


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from Ontario ...


> As the scope of the COVID-19 outbreak continues to increase internationally, Ontario is taking action to ensure the province's readiness to contain and respond to a range of outbreak scenarios.
> 
> Today, Christine Elliott, Deputy Premier and Minister of Health, announced Ontario is implementing an enhanced response structure that formally brings together a wide range of partners to review, strengthen and implement provincial and regional plans and ensure their responsiveness to the specifics of COVID-19.
> 
> "Our local public health units, hospitals, emergency health services, nurses and primary care providers, among others, have been critical in managing the early phases of this new coronavirus," said Elliott. "This new structure will tap into an even broader network of clinical expertise, experience and capacity across the health sector to ensure extensive plans are in place to quickly and effectively respond to any and every possible scenario."
> 
> The new response structure will comprise a number of tables with specific mandates:
> 
> A new Command Table will be the single point of oversight providing executive leadership and strategic direction to guide Ontario's response to COVID-19. The Command Table reports to the Minister of Health. The table will be chaired by the Deputy Minister of Health, Helen Angus, and include Dr. David Williams, Ontario's Chief Medical Officer of Heath; Matthew Anderson, Ontario Health's President and Chief Executive Officer; with representation from Public Health Ontario, the Ministry of Long-Term Care and Ministry of Labour, Training and Skills Development.
> Five regional planning and implementation tables, led by Ontario Health with support from local public health units, will be responsible for reviewing regional plans to proactively ensure local readiness and implementing provincial strategies in areas such as assessment, testing and care, supplies and equipment, surveillance and communications.
> The Ministry's Emergency Operations Centre, also known as MEOC, will continue to provide situational awareness and perform an overall coordination function among the components of the response structure.
> A Scientific Table, led by Public Health Ontario, will support the provincial and regional components of the response structure with the provision of evidence, and scientific and technical advice to inform planning and response.
> An Ethics Table, led by the University of Toronto Joint Centre for Bioethics, will assist in providing ethical guidance and representation at both provincial and regional tables to support decision-making throughout the response.
> Sector or Issues Specific Tables, which would have a specific focus like supporting the coordination of repatriated Canadians or local case and contact management as well as sector-specific coordination such as paramedic services, First Nations health partners and others as needed.
> A Collaboration Table with members from key health sector organizations which will provide advice to the Command Table.
> 
> This new response structure will build on the definitive steps that Ontario has already taken to address COVID-19, including:
> 
> Designating novel coronavirus as a disease reportable under Ontario's public health legislation to strengthen the province's ability to detect, monitor and contain potential cases;
> Creating a dedicated web page, with links and resources, to help Ontarians learn how to protect themselves, what to do if they are sick after they travel and how to recognize possible symptoms;
> Developing guidance for the health system to guide actions during the initial stages of the containment phase; and,
> Deploying Ontario's Emergency Medical Assistance Team to support repatriation efforts at CFB Trenton and the NAV Centre.
> 
> "Although the risk to Ontarians remains low, it is important that we take decisive steps to prepare for any scenario as this is a quickly evolving situation globally," said Elliott. "As we enter this next phase of preparedness, every Ontarian should have full confidence that these efforts by our dedicated public health professionals and health care leaders will continue to keep them safe." ...


Johns Hopkins' Canada #'s attached


----------



## The Bread Guy

World Health Organization's report on their recent expert panel visit to CHN (40pg PDF) - from the list of recommendations, specifically for the public (full list o' recommendations attached):


> ... 1. Recognize that COVID-19 is a new and concerning disease, but that outbreaks can managed with the right response and that the vast majority of infected people will recover;
> 
> 2. Begin now to adopt and rigorously practice the most important preventive measures for COVID-19 by frequent hand washing and always covering your mouth and nose when sneezing or coughing;
> 
> 3. Continually update yourself on COVID-19 and its signs and symptoms (i.e. fever and dry cough), because the strategies and response activities will constantly improve as new information on this disease is accumulating every day; and
> 
> 4. Be prepared to actively support a response to COVID-19 in a variety of ways, including the adoption of more stringent ‘social distancing’ practices and helping the high-risk elderly population ...



Latest Johns Hopkins & WHO stats also attached.

A few headlines ...

_*“Canada boosts border screening for travellers from Iran due to COVID-19”*_ (The Canadian Press via citynews.ca)
_*“Cybercriminals are now using COVID-19 as a scam tactic”*_ (CTV News)
_*“Canada’s main stock index futures rose on Tuesday, after oil prices gained on hopes that the world’s major central banks may offer financial stimulus to address the impacts of the spreading coronavirus outbreak …”*_ (Reuters)
_*“Iran Orders Troops to Fight Coronavirus Outbreak as 77 Dead”*_ (Voice of America)
_*“Coronavirus: Iran holy-shrine-lickers face prison”*_ (BBC News)


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from The Aurora News FB page ...


> Seventy-one aircrew members and technicians travelling home from exercises in Signonella, Italy, to 14 Wing Greenwood tomorrow, March 4, will be met with a set of preventative measures in the response to concerns around COVID-19.
> 
> At a wing town hall today, Lieutenant-Colonel Brent Vaino, acting wing commander, told several hundred wing personnel about planning for the return of the deployed contingent. While in Italy, their movements did not take them to any areas where the virus has been active. Personnel also restricted their own activities to work and accommodations spaces. The decision was made to bring them back to Canada early, as potential flight routings and refueling options through Britain, France and Spain come under review for planes leaving Italy.
> 
> Canadian Forces Health Services staff will meet personnel arriving from Italy, check for any COVID-19-related symptoms and question them on possible health and exposure risks while in Italy.
> 
> Personnel then have two choices: go home for three days of post-deployment leave, with continued self-monitoring and follow up with CFHS as needed; or, considering any infants or vulnerable other family members, opt to self-isolate for 14 days in base quarters, with meals in a separate dining space, and continued cooperation with CFHS.
> 
> “The risk is low – but not zero,” Vaino said. “We are working to balance this with correct information.”
> 
> At the town hall as guest on another topic was Brigadier-General Iain Huddleston, 1 Canadian Air Division deputy commander, who worked on the release of the 1 CAD/ Canadian Joint Operations Committee direction earlier this week. He reiterated recommendations on self-monitoring, frequent hand-washing and the low risk from the virus to military members as typically healthy individuals.
> 
> Huddleston reviewed the work done at 8 Wing Trenton last month, as three planeloads of people from China, where COVID-19 evolved, were met and monitored through a 14-day quarantine. With good prevention and planning, the planes’ aircrew and medical personnel travelling with the passengers were themselves released after three days.
> 
> “We have to trust the advice and guidance and expertise,” Huddleston said. “It has been dealt with successfully in Trenton, and it will be here. The wing team here is taking a measured, considered approach.”


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest #'s from WHO & Johns Hopkins


----------



## Spencer100

Our Military is put on alert.

 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-vance-pandemic-planning-1.5486243


----------



## NavyShooter

Nova Scotia School trips have been cancelled by the province - out of area/country trips.

Interestingly, when I passed through Costco about 2 weeks ago, I noted that there was only a single pallet of toilet paper...so I bought 2 packs.  Didn't think much of it...until this week when it's making the rounds on F-book/twitterverse/news that Costco Halifax/Dartmouth are now out of most paper products - no toilet paper, no kleenex, limited paper towels…and no purel/hand sanitizer to be found anywhere.

Now, I'm not one of those crazy prepping individuals, but I do like taking prudent steps to be ready.  Having a couple of weeks of food on hand is a good thing...having the staples handy in good quantities makes sense...so...I went shopping last night....got some stuff that I'll use whatever the circumstances because it's normal stuff we buy already, just a bit extra.

I noted that Costco is using sanitary wipes on the carts as you come into the store which is good, and I confirmed the absence of TP and stuff...then as I walked past the rice aisle, I noted that they had less than a half-pallet of basmati left...so I grabbed a bag.  Along with some spaghetti - less than a half pallet left of that too (along with some tomato paste and diced tomatoes for sauces...) no hand sanitizer, and no cleaning wipes (except the ones staff were using at the entry.)  So...basic staple items are disappearing from the shelves now.

So, the question of where the supply chain issue lies is the real matter at hand.  

It is one of two spots:

1.  Rail traffic disruptions from the past could of weeks.
or
2.  Supply Chain source breakdown.

I don't think that the potential supply chain issues that will originate in China from having portions of their productive economy shut off for an extra week (extended new years week) or the reduced productivity of quarantined areas will have really hit yet....so...I think the out of stock items are a result of the railway blockades, rather than supply chain source breakdown.

I'm not hugely concerned...but I think there's more hiccups to follow.


----------



## macarena

macarena said:
			
		

> Second confirmed case in Brazil: https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02/29/world/americas/29reuters-china-health-brazil.html   anic:



CNN publishes that Brazil only has 2 confirmed cases [1], but we were at 4 this morning on São Paulo State [2], and 10 minutes ago the Rio de Janeiro State confirmed its 1st case [3] (i.e. the 5th on Brazil).
I"ve just find an World Meter [4] that is reporting the right number of 4+1 cases on Brazil. 

[1]
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/29/asia/coronavirus-cases-worldwide-intl-hnk/index.html

[2] in portuguese only:
https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2020/03/05/ministerio-da-saude-confirma-quarto-caso-de-contaminacao-de-coronavirus-no-brasil.ghtml

[3] in portuguese only:
https://g1.globo.com/rj/rio-de-janeiro/noticia/2020/03/05/rj-confirma-primeiro-caso-do-novo-coronavirus-diz-secretaria.ghtml

[4]
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Staff edit: emoji overuse


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest Johns Hopkins & WHO numbers ...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Major Canadian travel insurers stop covering coronavirus trip cancellations*
> 
> 
> Two Canadian travel insurers are no longer covering customers who want to cancel their trip due to COVID-19, and the rest of the industry is likely to follow suit.
> 
> Manulife and TuGo have both decided that coronavirus is now a “known” issue and cancellation coverage no longer applies.
> 
> TuGo’s change in policy came into effect Tuesday, March 4, while Manulife said the exclusion applies from today, March 5.
> 
> “Manulife has determined that COVID-19 is now considered a known event and the applicable exclusion will be applied for individual travel insurance policies issued on or after this date,” Manulife said in a statement to CTVNews.ca.
> 
> “The application of COVID-19 as a known event does not apply to existing customers who bought our travel insurance policies prior to March 5, 2020.”
> 
> Manulife trip cancellation/interruption insurance (TCII) customers can submit a claim if the product was bought before a “high level government of Canada travel advisory,” but this will likely be “unpayable.”
> 
> “If TCII was purchased after the government of Canada issued a high level advisory, you cannot use it as a reason to cancel or interrupt your trip,” Manulife said.
> 
> Richmond, B.C., -based travel insurer TuGo said COVID-19 is “no longer considered sudden and unexpected, as it is a global health issue.”
> 
> “Because of this, we won’t provide any new coverage for this event, effective March 4, 2020,” TuGo spokesperson Melissa Kaerne Manning told CTVNews.ca via email.
> 
> “It’s important to note that if a traveller did buy trip cancellation and trip interruption insurance before March 4, 2020, their policy wouldn’t be affected by this amendment; coverage would still apply, as per the policy’s terms and conditions at the time of purchase.”
> 
> The company said its emergency medical insurance is still available to travellers, as long as the destination doesn’t have an “avoid non-essential” or “avoid all” travel advisory in place before the customer leaves.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/major-canadian-travel-insurers-stop-covering-coronavirus-trip-cancellations-1.4840391
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/coronavirus-manulife-tugo-travel-insurance-1.5486117


----------



## tomahawk6

Is the border still open ?


----------



## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Is the border still open ?



Yup, absolutely. Arrivals from some countries are being asked to self isolate.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HEALTH EXPERTS PREDICT 100 MILLION TO SUCCUMB TO CORONAVIRUS BY 2021

A scientist at the John Hopkins Medical Center in Maryland was an actual predictor of the coronavirus that first hit Wuhan, China in early January, believing that the virus attacks an entire three months prior.

Eric Toner had staged a simulation of a global pandemic, including the coronavirus and predicted that the deadly virus would kill upwards of 100 million people around the world in approximately 18 months.

https://thesource.com/2020/02/03/health-experts-predict-100-million-to-succumb-to-coronavirus-by-2021/


----------



## brihard

My wife and I had to go to BC’s Royal Columbia hospital emerg for an unrelated issue tonight (all good- she had an ear infection get suddenly quite bad after hours). We were pushed through fast; three hours in an out. Very crowded- all rooms in emerg were full and we had a lot of hallway waiting. The doc said they’ve had an uptick in visits, lots of fearful people with mild respiratory stuff. I didn’t see any evident increase in PPE usage by staff or any unusual procedures.

BC announced right more cases during the day, one of which may be ‘community transmission’; no pertinent travel history or known connection to same. 

I will say based on hospital crowding that if you can avoid hospital, do. We were seen fast and professionally, but there’s a lot of people crammed in right in waiting areas. Lots of potential to spread.


----------



## macarena

Brihard said:
			
		

> (...)
> I will say based on hospital crowding that if you can avoid hospital, do. We were seen fast and professionally, but there’s a lot of people crammed in right in waiting areas. Lots of potential to spread.



Thanks for the tip, big fella!
I apologizes for my latest joke.
In Brazil, the official report from the government [1], yesterday, announced 8 confirmed cases.
Today morning, the state of Bahia [2] (northeastern region), confirmed its 1st case, bringing us to a total of 9.
I think I will stop to count one by one. It seems it will start to polute the thread, since it will probably not stop on these 9 cases. That is sad!  :not-again:

[1] in portuguese only
https://www.saude.gov.br/noticias/agencia-saude/46493-coronavirus-com-8-casos-confirmados-brasil-monitora-636-suspeitos

[2] _+1 new case in Brazil (first in Bahia): a 34-year-old woman, resident of Feira de Santana, who was in Italy and returned to Brazil on Feb. 25_
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> I will say based on hospital crowding that if you can avoid hospital, do. We were seen fast and professionally, but there’s a lot of people crammed in right in waiting areas. Lots of potential to spread.



The pensioners organization I belong to includes a "Virtual Health Care Service: See a doctor 24/7 online in minutes."

They also have an online pharmacy.

Virtual health care visits may be worth considering.

Of course, if a medical emergency, call 9-1-1.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest via the Chief Public Health Officer info-machine ...


> On February 21, 2020, the Government of Canada repatriated 129 Canadians who were on the Diamond Princess, which was docked in Japan following an outbreak of COVID-19, the illness caused by the novel coronavirus on board the cruise ship. Upon their return to Canada, these individuals were subject to a 14-day quarantine period and have been staying at the NAV CENTRE in Cornwall, Ontario.
> 
> This decision was taken out of an abundance of caution because of the extraordinary circumstances faced by passengers on the Diamond Princess and to lighten the burden on the Japanese healthcare system.
> 
> Today, I can confirm that all 129 repatriated individuals at the NAV CENTRE have been released from quarantine. These individuals remained asymptomatic for COVID-19 throughout the 14-day quarantine period and, as a result, they pose no risk to others and can safely return to their communities and to their usual activities. To respect the privacy of the individuals leaving quarantine, we will not release further details of their travel plans.
> 
> I would like to thank the repatriated Canadians and their families for their patience and cooperation, and their contribution to public health. They have been through a stressful and uncertain experience, and I urge everyone to treat them with respect and compassion.
> 
> I would also like to extend my thanks and appreciation to federal partners and the provincial and local public health authorities, the City of Cornwall, Cornwall Community Police Services, the Canadian Red Cross and the NAV CENTRE for their contributions to these repatriation efforts.


----------



## tomahawk6

Two died in Florida bringing the US death toll to 17. Canada would be wise to close the border. We are certain to have more deaths just as we do in flu season. The Government is sending out tests to State public health agencies.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-2-dead-in-the-state-who-tested-covid-19-positive/ar-BB10R0M9?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## YZT580

hard to close the border when half the seniors from Ontario and Quebec still need to return home.  There is a six month limitation on how long they can remain in the states and I doubt that Washington will extend the deadline.  Also there is a little question on health insurance.  Companies will definitely not want to extend the coverage with the probability of having to shell out to cover virus-related hospital stays in Fort Meyers.


----------



## tomahawk6

Now with the virus in Florida Canadians may be unable to leave if they test positive.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

That's gonna make the Canadian Revenue Agency happy: Non-resident status anyone.


----------



## dapaterson

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> That's gonna make the Canadian Revenue Agency happy: Non-resident status anyone.



More like the provincial health authorities: you are no longer resident, therefore no longer covered.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> More like the provincial health authorities: you are no longer resident, therefore no longer covered.



Most provincial health insurance plans probably don't care due to existing restrictions that already limit the amount they will pay for out-of-country medical services.  But if individuals lose entitlement to provincial health insurance benefits because of a quarantine enforced absence from home province (_something that would be unlikely to happen_), it may be a windfall for the companies that provide travel medical insurance.  In most cases the fine print on those policies require the insured to have provincial health insurance which would be responsible for first reimbursement, however minimum that may be.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest Johns Hopkins & WHO stats attached, and WHO's home-brew formula for hand sanitizer.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

This outbreak is a couple of km from my house https://www.nsnews.com/news/2-new-cases-of-covid-19-linked-to-north-vancouver-care-home-1.24092857


----------



## mariomike

Coronavirus call in the US.

With pictures like that, little wonder folks are buying up masks.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Coronavirus call in the US.
> 
> With pictures like that, little wonder folks are buying up masks.



TOPP High! Good thing I've kept my mess tins so I can bang them together when the time comes


----------



## Colin Parkinson

So how many army portable hospitals do we have?

From this link https://www.zerohedge.com/health/all-hospital-beds-us-will-be-filled-coronavirus-patients-about-may-8th-according-analysis?fbclid=IwAR1Xs3yK8MZRlm0QBZy0EiF3YcQSX9AwPo6EVCSyT909mVbJj6_gq_LT9Jo

Alright, so that’s beds. Now masks. Feds say we have a national stockpile of 12M N95 masks and 30M surgical masks (which are not ideal, but better than nothing).
There are about 18M healthcare workers in the US. Let’s assume only 6M HCW are working on any given day. (This is likely an underestimate as most people work most days of the week, but again, I’m playing conservative at every turn.)
As COVID19 cases saturate virtually every state and county, which seems likely to happen any day now, it will soon be irresponsible for all HCWs to not wear a mask. These HCWs would burn through N95 stockpile in 2 days if each HCW only got ONE mask per day.
One per day would be neither sanitary nor pragmatic, though this is indeed what we saw in Wuhan, with HCWs collapsing on their shift from dehydration because they were trying to avoid changing their PPE suits as they cannot be reused.
How quickly could we ramp up production of new masks? Not very fast at all. The vast majority are manufactured overseas, almost all in China. Even when manufactured here in US, the raw materials are predominantly from overseas... again, predominantly from China.
Keep in mind that all countries globally will be going through the exact same crises and shortages simultaneously. We can’t force trade in our favor.


----------



## PuckChaser

Since Ive never heard of 2 Cdn Fd Hospital, my guess is 1.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> TOPP High! Good thing I've kept my mess tins so I can bang them together when the time comes







			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Now masks. Feds say we have a national stockpile of 12M N95 masks <snip>



On a positive note, Ontario paramedics are better prepared now than we were during SARS. 

We had our N95s. ( Which have to be FIT tested prior to issue.  )

But, they have PPE now we never dreamed of 17 years ago,

Powered air purifying respirator (FM53-PAPR) with CBRNE rated air filters. TYCHEM suits, BUTYL gloves and over boots, all sealed with CHEM tape. 



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Now masks. < snip > and 30M surgical masks (which are not ideal, but better than nothing).



Explaining the difference between surgical masks and N95 in protecting you from coronavirus,


> ‘The reality is [surgical masks] don’t really provide us with protection.’ — This surgeon is breaking down the misconceptions about surgical masks and who they’re actually helping
> https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1236351658168205318


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Ted Cruz self quarantines after contact with coronavirus carrier*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cpac-ted-cruz/senator-cruz-self-quarantines-after-contact-with-coronavirus-carrier-idUSKBN20V16M


----------



## Spencer100

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Two died in Florida bringing the US death toll to 17. Canada would be wise to close the border. We are certain to have more deaths just as we do in flu season. The Government is sending out tests to State public health agencies.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-2-dead-in-the-state-who-tested-covid-19-positive/ar-BB10R0M9?ocid=spartanntp



Closing the Canadian/Us border would kill both economies in about two days.  In just the automotive industry a border shutdown would close EVERY (including Japanese/German) assembly plants in Canada/US and Mexico in about two days putting out millions of workers.  

As for Canada and the Wuhan virus...we go where the US goes on this one....


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Closing the Canadian/Us border would kill both economies in about two days.  In just the automotive industry a border shutdown would close EVERY (including Japanese/German) assembly plants in Canada/US and Mexico in about two days putting out millions of workers.
> 
> As for Canada and the Wuhan virus...we go where the US goes on this one....



Arguably more people might die from a border shut down due to homelessness, suicide, drug use due to depression, etc., than would die from the Coronavirus.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *First Canadian COVID-19 death recorded in B.C.*
> 
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/first-canadian-covid-19-death-recorded-in-b-c-health-officials-say-1.4845180
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid-19-coronavirus-update-bc-march-9-1.5483932
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6650774/bc-covid-coronavirus-update-monday/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest Johns Hopkins & WHO stats ...


----------



## mariomike

New York City’s official Pandemic Surge Plan stipulates that prisoners will be ferried to Hart Island, which sits off the Bronx in Long Island Sound, to dig huge pits for thousands of bodies to be buried in at once.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/10/prisoners-will-dig-mass-graves-new-yorkers-coronavirus-decimates-city-12376355/?ito=cbshare


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest #'s ...


----------



## mariomike

O.J. is prepared,
https://twitter.com/TheRealOJ32/status/1235918997247442944?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


----------



## FJAG

Air Canada suspends flights to Italy.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/air-canada-suspending-all-flights-to-italy-amid-covid-19-fears-1.4847019

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy

WHO uses the "P" word ....


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> WHO uses the "P" word ....



Kind of a 'no s***' at this point, but glad they've at least said it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

For the statically inclined 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Reuters Exclusive: White House told federal health agency to classify coronavirus deliberations - sources*
> 
> 
> The White House has ordered federal health officials to treat top-level coronavirus meetings as classified, an unusual step that has restricted information and hampered the U.S. government’s response to the contagion, according to four Trump administration officials.
> 
> The officials said that dozens of classified discussions about such topics as the scope of infections, quarantines and travel restrictions have been held since mid-January in a high-security meeting room at the Department of Health & Human Services (HHS), a key player in the fight against the coronavirus.
> 
> Staffers without security clearances, including government experts, were excluded from the interagency meetings, which included video conference calls, the sources said.
> 
> “We had some very critical people who did not have security clearances who could not go,” one official said. “These should not be classified meetings. It was unnecessary.”
> 
> The sources said the National Security Council (NSC), which advises the president on security issues, ordered the classification.”This came directly from the White House,” one official said.
> 
> The White House insistence on secrecy at the nation’s premier public health organization, which has not been previously disclosed, has put a lid on certain information - and potentially delayed the response to the crisis. COVID19, the disease caused by the virus, has killed about 30 people in the United States and infected more than 1,000 people.
> 
> HHS oversees a broad range of health agencies, including the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which among other things is responsible for tracking cases and providing guidance nationally on the outbreaks.
> 
> The administration officials, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said they could not describe the interactions in the meeting room because they were classified.
> 
> An NSC spokesman did not respond to questions about the meetings at HHS. But he defended the administration’s transparency across federal agencies and noted that meetings of the administration’s task force on the coronavirus all are unclassified. It was not immediately clear which meetings he was referring to.
> 
> “From day one of the response to the coronavirus, NSC has insisted on the principle of radical transparency,” said the spokesman, John Ullyot. He added that the administration “has cut red tape and set the global standard in protecting the American people under President Trump’s leadership.”
> 
> A spokeswoman for the HHS, Katherine McKeogh, issued a statement that did not address questions about classified meetings. Using language that echoed the NSC’s, the department said it that it agreed task-force meetings should be unclassified.
> 
> Critics have hammered the Trump administration for what they see as a delayed response to coronavirus outbreaks and a lack of transparency, including sidelining experts and providing misleading or incomplete information to the public. State and local officials also have complained of being kept in the dark about essential federal response information.
> 
> U.S. Vice-President Mike Pence, the administration’s point person on coronavirus, vowed on March 3 to offer “real-time information in a steady pace and be fully transparent.” The vice president, appointed by President Donald Trump in late February, is holding regular news briefings and also has pledged to rely on expert guidance.
> 
> The meetings at HHS were held in a secure area called a “Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facility,” or SCIF, according to the administration officials.
> 
> SCIFs are usually reserved for intelligence and military operations. Ordinary cell phones and computers can’t be brought into the chambers. HHS has SCIFs because theoretically it would play a major role in biowarfare or chemical attacks.
> 
> A high-level former official who helped address public health outbreaks in the George W. Bush administration said “it’s not normal to classify discussions about a response to a public health crisis.”
> 
> Attendees at the meetings included HHS Secretary Alex Azar and his chief of staff Brian Harrison, the officials said. Azar and Harrison resisted the classification of the meetings, the sources said.
> 
> HHS did not make Azar or Harrison available for comment.
> 
> One of the administration officials told Reuters that when complex issues about a quarantine came up, a high-ranking HHS lawyer with expertise on the issue was not admitted because he did not have the proper security clearance. His input was delayed and offered at an unclassified meeting, the official said.
> 
> A fifth source familiar with the meetings said HHS staffers often weren’t informed about coronavirus developments because they didn’t have adequate clearance. He said he was told that the matters were classified “because it had to do with China.”
> 
> The coronavirus epidemic originated in China and the administration’s main focus to prevent spread early on was to restrict travel by non-U.S. citizens coming from China and to authorize the quarantine of people entering the United States who may have been exposed to the virus.
> 
> One of the administration officials suggested the security clearances for meetings at HHS were imposed not to protect national security but to keep the information within a tight circle, to prevent leaks.
> 
> “It seemed to be a tool for the White House - for the NSC - to keep participation in these meetings low,” the official said.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-secrecy-exclusive/exclusive-white-house-told-federal-health-agency-to-classify-coronavirus-deliberations-sources-idUSKBN20Y2LM


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Coronavirus Live Updates: U.S. Will Suspend Travel From Europe as Countries Tighten Lockdowns
Financial markets plunged; Italy ordered nearly all businesses to close; and the World Health Organization declared a pandemic as the virus spread.
President Trump said he would be suspending all travel from Europe for the next 30 days starting Friday. The restrictions will not apply to Britain.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/world/coronavirus-news.html


----------



## OceanBonfire

Tom Hanks and his wife are infected:

https://twitter.com/tomhanks/status/1237909897020207104


NBA suspends the season:

https://twitter.com/NBA/status/1237917831506857989


----------



## dapaterson

Quote of the day: COVID-19 can't possibly be airborne.  It's still relevant in the 21st century.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Ottawa's first case of coronavirus is a man in his 40s who travelled to Austria and experienced mild symptoms upon his return:

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mayor-urges-calm-after-ottawa-s-first-coronavirus-case-1.4848276


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Quote of the day: COVID-19 can't possibly be airborne.  It's still relevant in the 21st century.



A virus that obnoxious, and effective at ruining things, just has to be Airborne


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> O.J. is prepared,
> https://twitter.com/TheRealOJ32/status/1235918997247442944?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet



Some of the replies are priceless:

"Can you kill the virus for us OJ?"

"He’s at Costco getting a new pair of gloves.  His old ones are doused in a red liquid."

"Statistically I may have a better chance of being killed by you than the virus"

"It's kill rate is lower than yours so I'm gonna tough it out"

Were I him, I'd (1) not have killed my wife and her boyfriend and (2) stay out of sight and not draw further attention to myself.


----------



## The Bread Guy

POTUS45:  No European travellers into U.S. ...


> US President Donald Trump has announced sweeping travel restrictions on 26 European countries in a bid to combat the spread of the coronavirus.
> 
> The ban applies to travellers from countries which are members of the Schengen border-free travel area.
> 
> The UK, Ireland and other non-Schengen countries*** are unaffected. US citizens are also exempt ...


Edited to add:  *** - Non-Schengen countries include Albania, Andora, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus,  Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia, Cyprus, Georgia, Ireland, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine, The United Kingdom and Vatican City (source).

POTUS45's 11 Mar 2020 speech ....


> My fellow Americans: Tonight, I want to speak with you about our nation’s unprecedented response to the
> coronavirus outbreak that started in China and is now spreading throughout the world.
> 
> Today, the World Health Organization officially announced that this is a global pandemic.
> 
> We have been in frequent contact with our allies, and we are marshalling the full power of the federal government and the private sector to protect the American people.
> 
> This is the most aggressive and comprehensive effort to confront a foreign virus in modern history. I am confident that by counting and continuing to take these tough measures, we will significantly reduce the threat to our citizens, and we will ultimately and expeditiously defeat this virus.
> 
> From the beginning of time, nations and people have faced unforeseen challenges, including large-scale and very dangerous health threats. This is the way it always was and always will be. It only matters how you respond, and we are responding with great speed and professionalism.
> 
> Our team is the best anywhere in the world. At the very start of the outbreak, we instituted sweeping travel restrictions on China and put in place the first federally mandated quarantine in over 50 years. We declared a public health emergency and issued the highest level of travel warning on other countries as the virus spread its horrible infection.
> 
> And taking early intense action, we have seen dramatically fewer cases of the virus in the United States than are now present in Europe.
> 
> The European Union failed to take the same precautions and restrict travel from China and other hotspots. As a result, a large number of new clusters in the United States were seeded by travelers from Europe.
> 
> After consulting with our top government health professionals, I have decided to take several strong but necessary actions to protect the health and wellbeing of all Americans.
> 
> To keep new cases from entering our shores, we will be suspending all travel from Europe to the United States for the next 30 days. The new rules will go into effect Friday at midnight. These restrictions will be adjusted subject to conditions on the ground.
> 
> There will be exemptions for Americans who have undergone appropriate screenings, and these prohibitions will not only apply to the tremendous amount of trade and cargo, but various other things as we get approval. Anything coming from Europe to the United States is what we are discussing. These restrictions will also not apply to the United Kingdom.
> 
> At the same time, we are monitoring the situation in China and in South Korea. And, as their situation improves, we will reevaluate the restrictions and warnings that are currently in place for a possible early opening.
> 
> Earlier this week, I met with the leaders of health insurance industry who have agreed to waive all copayments for coronavirus treatments, extend insurance coverage to these treatments, and to prevent surprise medical billing.
> 
> We are cutting massive amounts of red tape to make antiviral therapies available in record time. These treatments will significantly reduce the impact and reach of the virus.
> 
> Additionally, last week, I signed into law an $8.3 billion funding bill to help CDC and other government agencies fight the virus and support vaccines, treatments, and distribution of medical supplies. Testing and testing capabilities are expanding rapidly, day by day. We are moving very quickly.
> 
> The vast majority of Americans: The risk is very, very low. Young and healthy people can expect to recover fully and quickly if they should get the virus. The highest risk is for elderly population with underlying health conditions. The elderly population must be very, very careful.
> 
> In particular, we are strongly advising that nursing homes for the elderly suspend all medically unnecessary visits. In general, older Americans should also avoid nonessential travel in crowded areas.
> 
> My administration is coordinating directly with communities with the largest outbreaks, and we have issued guidance on school closures, social distancing, and reducing large gatherings.
> 
> Smart action today will prevent the spread of the virus tomorrow.
> 
> Every community faces different risks and it is critical for you to follow the guidelines of your local officials who are working closely with our federal health experts -- and they are the best.
> 
> For all Americans, it is essential that everyone take extra precautions and practice good hygiene. Each of us has a role to play in defeating this virus. Wash your hands, clean often-used surfaces, cover your face and mouth if you sneeze or cough, and most of all, if you are sick or not feeling well, stay home.
> 
> To ensure that working Americans impacted by the virus can stay home without fear of financial hardship, I will soon be taking emergency action, which is unprecedented, to provide financial relief. This will be targeted for workers who are ill, quarantined, or caring for others due to coronavirus.
> 
> I will be asking Congress to take legislative action to extend this relief.
> 
> Because of the economic policies that we have put into place over the last three years, we have the greatest economy anywhere in the world, by far.
> 
> Our banks and financial institutions are fully capitalized and incredibly strong. Our unemployment is at a historic low. This vast economic prosperity gives us flexibility, reserves, and resources to handle any threat that comes our way.
> 
> This is not a financial crisis, this is just a temporary moment of time that we will overcome together as a nation and as a world.
> 
> However, to provide extra support for American workers, families, and businesses, tonight I am announcing the following additional actions: I am instructing the Small Business Administration to exercise available authority to provide capital and liquidity to firms affected by the coronavirus.
> 
> Effective immediately, the SBA will begin providing economic loans in affected states and territories. These low-interest loans will help small businesses overcome temporary economic disruptions caused by the virus. To this end, I am asking Congress to increase funding for this program by an additional $50 billion.
> 
> Using emergency authority, I will be instructing the Treasury Department to defer tax payments, without interest or penalties, for certain individuals and businesses negatively impacted. This action will provide more than $200 billion of additional liquidity to the economy.
> 
> Finally, I am calling on Congress to provide Americans with immediate payroll tax relief. Hopefully they will consider this very strongly.
> 
> We are at a critical time in the fight against the virus. We made a life-saving move with early action on China. Now we must take the same action with Europe. We will not delay. I will never hesitate to take any necessary steps to protect the lives, health, and safety of the American people. I will always put the wellbeing of America first.
> 
> If we are vigilant -- and we can reduce the chance of infection, which we will -- we will significantly impede the transmission of the virus. The virus will not have a chance against us.
> 
> No nation is more prepared or more resilient than the United States. We have the best economy, the most advanced healthcare, and the most talented doctors, scientists, and researchers anywhere in the world.
> 
> We are all in this together. We must put politics aside, stop the partisanship, and unify together as one nation and one family.
> 
> As history has proven time and time again, Americans always rise to the challenge and overcome adversity.
> 
> Our future remains brighter than anyone can imagine. Acting with compassion and love, we will heal the sick, care for those in need, help our fellow citizens, and emerge from this challenge stronger and more unified than ever before.
> 
> God bless you, and God bless America. Thank you.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The WHO said travel bans don't work. Did they change their view on it?


----------



## OldSolduer

Has anyone engaged Chuck Norris? He'd kick that virus' sorry ass into oblivion.


----------



## dapaterson

As DND/CAF moves into the world of telepresence meetings / working from home, a useful reminder from twitter.

https://twitter.com/ellen_perleberg/status/1237601949521862657

Just got an email from a prof: “As a reminder, you are required to wear clothes during Zoom meetings.” 

Rules are made when they become necessary, not before.


----------



## tomahawk6

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The WHO said travel bans don't work. Did they change their view on it?



If the virus is spread by air or person to person a travel ban works. Right now Mexico has avoided the virus which is good for our southern border.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The WHO said travel bans don't work. Did they change their view on it?


Who believes those New World Order U.N. internationalist freaks?  ;D  To be fair to POTUS45, though, he wouldn't be the first politician in history of any stripe to do something just to be seen to do something, even if it may not be the best way to solve the problem at hand.

Also, more from DND/CAF:


> *Joint DM/CDS statement on the novel coronavirus (COVID-19)*
> 
> We would like to provide the Defence Team with the latest information (link accessible only on the National Defence network) related to the rapidly evolving 2019 novel coronavirus (COVID-19) and the steps we are taking to minimize the risk to Defence team members. In close collaboration with government partners, we have been monitoring, preparing for, and responding to the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> Many of you are preparing for March break travel. The risk to Canadian travelers abroad is low but increasing, and will vary depending on the destination and the travel hubs you pass through on the way to your destination. The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) is closely monitoring the spread of COVID-19 in other countries. Please consult the destination page on travel.gc.ca for the latest travel advice. If you travel, PHAC asks that you monitor your health for fever, cough and difficulty breathing for 14 days after you arrive in Canada. If you have these symptoms, call the public health authority in your province or territory to inform them. They will provide advice on what you should do.
> 
> The primary authoritative source of information for all Canadians on COVID-19, including Government of Canada employees, is Canada.ca/coronavirus as well as the COVID-19 Information Line at 1-833-784-4397. Managers and employees should be referring daily to guidance on this site, which is updated regularly. For questions about COVID-19 in the workplace, managers and employees are encouraged to visit the GCintranet (link accessible only on the Government of Canada networks).
> 
> We also encourage all employees and managers to take advantage of the services of the Employee Assistance Program available to you and your family members.
> 
> Direction to CAF Members
> Please refer to CANFORGEN 039/20 SJS 017/20 031919Z (NOVEL CORONAVIRUS COVID-19 UPDATE) (link accessible only on the National Defence network) for amplifying direction related to travel policies, Defence engagements and preventable measures in order to protect the force from COVID-19.
> Direction and Recommendations to DND Employee
> STAY UPDATED: Please consult the Government of Canada 2019 coronavirus Outbreak Update page for the most up to date information related to COVID-19.
> UNDERSTAND LEAVE OPTIONS: DND offers various leave options that are available to civilian employees. Leave options include: ,annual, care of family, or leave with pay for other reasons. All leave options are subject to the provision each employee’s relative collective agreement.
> Please note: As per OCHRO-TBS direction, Government of Canada employees who choose to travel to affected regions for personal reasons and against the advice of the Government of Canada’s Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Travel advice may not use the category leave with pay for other reasons. Instead, DND recommends that these employees extend their annual leave or use compensatory leave for the period of self-isolation and self-monitoring.
> STAY HOME IF YOU ARE SICK: Employees who are ill should use sick leave, and feel safe to confide in management and self-isolate and self-monitor without financial penalty, as the Department supports appropriate leave for self-isolation and self-monitoring measures.
> CONSULT TRAVEL ADVISORIES: It is strongly recommended to maintain situational awareness on Government of Canada Travel Health Notices. All civilian employees are also encouraged to complete the Notice of Intent to Travel form outlined in CANFORGEN 039/20 SJS 017/20 031919Z (link accessible only on the National Defence network).
> CONSIDER YOUR RISK OF EXPOSURE: If you work at airports of entry receiving passengers from the affected areas, or if you deal with personnel working at diplomatic missions who may have been exposed to the virus that causes COVID-19, refer to the Health Canada Public Service Occupational Health Program (PSOHP) Occupational Health Advisory: Novel Coronavirus annexes related to your work, for special procedures to follow.
> If You Believe You Have Been Exposed
> If you traveled to affected areas, had close contact with a confirmed or suspected case of COVID-19 or handled laboratory or biological materials known to contain COVID-19, you may be at risk.
> 
> For CAF members, if you develop fever, cough, or difficulty breathing within 14 days of a potential exposure, you must identify yourself to the medical staff at your local military clinic as soon as possible.
> For civilian employees, if you develop fever, cough, or difficulty breathing within 14 days of a potential exposure, call your health care provider or local public health authority.
> Health Canada recommends taking general precautions to reduce your risk of infection, such as washing your hands often with soap and water, coughing or sneezing into your arm or tissue, avoiding touching your eyes, nose or mouth with unwashed hands, and avoiding close contact with people who are sick.
> 
> As this is an evolving situation, visit Canada.ca/coronavirus for the latest information or visit the Defence Team Intranet page (link accessible only on the National Defence network). You can also follow Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer, Dr. Theresa Tam, on Twitter for up-to-date information.
> 
> Jody Thomas
> Deputy Minister
> 
> Gen Jonathan Vance
> Chief of the Defence Staff


----------



## Journeyman

Showing up at places red faced, I've been asked twice now about COVID 19.

Nope, motorcycle out of winter storage and riding in spring weather.  Ya, baby!  8)


----------



## OldSolduer

Good for you. Live a little.

As that wise man George Carlin once stated "take a f&8King chance"!


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Who believes those New World Order U.N. internationalist freaks?  ;D



Reminds me of what our mayor said on CNN about the WHO, while I was on "working quarantine",

"I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before."

The entire interview was about infectious disease and tourism,
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/sars-according-to-mayor-mel/article25283181/
Could just as easily have been Coronavirus.

Reminded me of the fictional mayor in the movie "Jaws", 

"I'm only trying to say that Amity is a summer town. We need summer dollars."


----------



## The Bread Guy

CANFORGEN NOVEL CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19) UPDATE (via Canadian Veterans Advocacy FB page, so NOT necessarily official text):


> CANFORGEN 039/20 SJS 017/20 031919Z MAR 20
> 
> NOVEL CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19) UPDATE
> 
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> REFERENCES: A. CDS TASKING ORDER FOR OPERATION LASER 20-01, 2 MARCH 2020
> B. CANFORGEN 020/20 VCDS 001/20 030737Z FEB 20
> 
> THE COVID-19 OUTBREAK REMAINS A SIGNIFICANT CONCERN TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. TO DATE, NEARLY 90,000 PEOPLE HAVE CONTRACTED THE VIRUS GLOBALLY, AND OVER 3000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM THE INFECTION. RECOGNIZING THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS EVOLVING SITUATION, THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA (GC) HAS BEGUN TO SHIFT FOCUS FROM CONTAINMENT EFFORTS, SUCH AS ASSISTED RETURN AND QUARANTINE OPERATIONS, TO MEASURES INTENDED TO FURTHER DELAY AND MITIGATE THE IMPACTS OF A POTENTIAL WIDESPREAD AND SUSTAINED TRANSMISSION OF COVID-19.
> 
> AS PER REFERENCE A, I ORDERED THE ACTIVATION OF CONPLAN LASER PHASE 2 (PANDEMIC ALERT/PREPARATION). THE PURPOSE OF THAT TASKING ORDER IS TO ENSURE THAT THE CAF IMPLEMENTS MEASURES TO MAINTAIN CAF OPERATIONAL EFFECTIVENESS AND READINESS, PRESERVE ESSENTIAL HEALTH SERVICES FOR MBRS, AND MAINTAIN RESPONSIVE SUPPORT TO CIVIL AUTHORITIES AS PART OF THE GC RESPONSE. AS WE CONTINUE EFFORTS TO CONTAIN AND DELAY COVID-19, WE WILL IMMEDIATELY ASSESS CAF POSTURE AT HOME AND ABROAD, REFRESH BUSINESS CONTINUITY PLANS, PROTECT DEFENCE SUPPLY CHAINS, AND TAKE MEASURES TO LIMIT THE CHANCE OF INFECTION OF OUR MBRS.
> 
> IN THAT CONTEXT, THIS CANFORGEN IS INTENDED TO ISSUE AMPLIFYING DIRECTION RELATED TO TRAVEL POLICIES, DEFENCE ENGAGEMENTS AND ACTIVITIES, AND PREVENTIVE HEALTH MEASURES WITH A VIEW TO BETTER PROTECTING THE FORCE FROM COVID-19.
> 
> REGARDING TRAVEL OF CAF MBRS, WHILE WE CONTINUE TO MONITOR AND IMPLEMENT GC TRAVEL AND MEDICAL ADVISORIES, I AM DIRECTING ADDITIONAL PRECAUTIONS, PARTICULARLY RELATED TO THE AUTHORIZATION OF NON-ESSENTIAL TRAVEL AND/OR TEMPORARY DUTY IN AREAS WITH ONGOING VIRAL SPREAD, IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT CANADA S MILITARY REMAINS POSTURED TO ASSIST CIVIL AUTHORITIES AND CANADIANS SHOULD THE NEED ARISE.
> 
> EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, ALL COMMANDS WILL ASSESS REQUESTS FOR NON-ESSENTIAL LEAVE-RELATED TRAVEL ABROAD AND/OR TEMPORARY DUTY (TD)-RELATED TRAVEL ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. MBRS ARE TO AVOID PLANNING TRAVEL TO COUNTRIES EXPERIENCING AN OUTBREAK OF COVID-19 IN EITHER A LIMITED OR LARGE GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE DISEASE IS NEWLY IDENTIFIED AND REPRESENTS A CHANGE IN THE EXISTING PATTERN OF DISEASE GLOBALLY. COMMANDERS WILL ONLY AUTHORIZE TRAVEL TO COUNTRIES EXPERIENCING A COVID-19 OUTBREAK WHEN DEEMED OPERATIONALLY ESSENTIAL (I.E., THE DEPLOYMENT OF CAF MEDICAL TEAMS TO CHINA TO FACILITATE A GAC-LED ASSISTED RETURN). DIRECTION RELATED TO TRAVEL TO CHINA AS ISSUED AT REFERENCE B REMAINS EXTANT.
> 
> FURTHER, WHEN ASSESSING LEAVE AND TD TRAVEL REQUESTS, COMMANDERS SHOULD CONSIDER THE OPERATIONAL RISKS RELATED TO THE POSSIBILITY OF UNEXPECTED AND RAPIDLY DEVELOPING RESTRICTIONS ON FREEDOM TO MANOEUVRE. THESE COULD INCLUDE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF CORDONS, REFUSAL OF ENTRY TO FOREIGN NATIONS BASED ON TRAVEL HISTORY, AND/OR NEW QUARANTINE OR ISOLATION REQUIREMENTS.
> 
> FOR THOSE CAF MBRS CURRENTLY POSTED OR DEPLOYED OUTCAN, THEY SHOULD BE PREPARED TO IMPLEMENT HOST NATION AND ALLIED DIRECTIVES AS APPLICABLE. RETURNING TRAVELLERS COULD BE REFUSED ENTRY TO THE HOST NATION BASED ON TRAVEL HISTORY AND MAY BE REQUIRED TO RETURN TO CANADA FOR THE APPLICABLE MONITORING PERIOD. WHERE THERE ARE QUESTIONS OR CONCERNS IN THAT REGARD, MBRS ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONSULT WITH THEIR RESPECTIVE CAF SENIOR MEDICAL AUTHORITY.
> 
> CAF PERSONNEL WHO HAVE BEEN RECALLED FROM LEAVE IAW QR&O 16.01 OR HAD THEIR APPROVED LEAVE CANCELLED MAY SUBMIT CLAIMS FOR REIMBURSEMENT OF NON-REFUNDABLE TRAVEL AND TRANSPORTATION EXPENSES IAW CBI 209.54.
> 
> ADDITIONALLY, CAF MBRS ARE REMINDED OF THE RESPONSIBILITY TO SUBMIT A NOTICE OF INTENT TO TRAVEL IAW THE CAF LEAVE MANUAL WHEN SUBMITTING A LEAVE PASS. THE NOTICE OF INTENT TO TRAVEL SERVES TO ENSURE MBRS ARE MADE AWARE OF REGIONAL RISKS PRIOR TO TRAVEL. RESTRICTIONS MAY BE EXPANDED AS DEEMED NECESSARY BY ON-GOING ASSESSMENTS.
> 
> UNDER QR AND O 1.03 ALL ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS ISSUED TO THE CAF UNDER THE NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT AUTHORITY APPLY TO THE RESERVE FORCE ONLY WHEN SUBJECT TO CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE. HOWEVER, THE RESERVE FORCE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS ENCOURAGED TO COMMUNICATE THE SPIRIT AND INTENT OF THIS ORDER TO RESERVE MBRS.
> 
> I FURTHER DIRECT LEVEL 1 COMMANDERS TO SCRUTINIZE ALL SCHEDULED CAF ACTIVITIES THAT INVOLVE LARGE GATHERINGS AND BE PREPARED TO CANCEL OR POSTPONE INVOLVEMENT IN DISCRETIONARY DOMESTIC EVENTS SHOULD CANADA NEED TO TRANSITION TO PANDEMIC MITIGATION. SIMILARLY, FORCE EMPLOYERS ARE TO PROVIDE ADVICE TO ME ON POTENTIAL CHANGES TO CAF POSTURE ON OPERATIONS AS REQUIRED.
> 
> WHILE MUCH REMAINS TO BE DISCOVERED ABOUT COVID-19, WE DO KNOW THAT THE MAJORITY OF PERSONS WHO CONTRACT THIS INFECTION WILL RECOVER BUT THE DISEASE IS PARTICULARLY SEVERE FOR OLDER AGE GROUPS AND THOSE WITH UNDERLYING MEDICAL CONDITIONS. IN GENERAL, THIS DISEASE APPEARS TO NOT BE AS CLINICALLY SEVERE AS THE 2003 SARS EPIDEMIC. THERE IS NO VACCINE OR MEDICATION CURRENTLY AVAILABLE THAT SPECIFICALLY TARGETS PREVENTION OR TREATMENT OF THE VIRUS THAT CAUSES COVID-19.
> 
> THE BEST WAY TO PREVENT COVID-19 IS TO AVOID BECOMING INFECTED. PRACTICALLY, THIS MEANS ENFORCING HIGH STANDARDS OF PERSONAL HYGIENE. THE SAME ACTIONS THAT WILL PREVENT THE SPREAD OF SEASONAL INFLUENZA VIRUS (FLU) OR THE COMMON COLD WILL WORK FOR PREVENTING INFECTION WITH THE VIRUS THAT CAUSES COVID-19. THIS MEANS:
> 
> WASHING HANDS OFTEN WITH SOAP AND WARM RUNNING WATER FOR 20 SECONDS (ESPECIALLY BEFORE EATING),
> USING AN ALCOHOL-BASED HAND SANITIZER IF SOAP AND WATER ARE NOT AVAILABLE,
> AVOIDING TOUCHING YOUR EYES, NOSE, OR MOUTH WITH UNWASHED HANDS,
> APPLYING PROPER COUGH AND SNEEZE ETIQUETTE WHEN IN PUBLIC TO REDUCE THE SPREAD OF GERMS. COVER YOUR MOUTH AND NOSE WITH A TISSUE (OR YOUR ARM IF A TISSUE IS NOT AVAILABLE). IMMEDIATELY DISPOSE OF ANY TISSUES YOU HAVE USED INTO THE GARBAGE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND WASH YOUR HANDS AFTERWARDS,
> EXERCISING CAUTION WHEN DECIDING TO SPEND TIME IN LARGE CROWDS OR IN CROWDED AREAS WHERE YOU CANNOT EASILY EXTRACT YOURSELF IF YOU, OR OTHERS AROUND YOU, BECOME ILL,
> NOT GOING TO WORK WHEN YOU ARE SICK,
> AVOIDING VISITING PEOPLE IN HOSPITALS OR LONG-TERM CARE CENTRES IF YOU ARE SICK, AND
> IF YOU DO BECOME ILL WITH FLU-LIKE SYMPTOMS, FOLLOW PROPER PROCEDURES WHEN SEEKING MEDICAL ATTENTION. FAMILIARIZE YOURSELVES WITH LOCAL MEDICAL TREATMENT FACILITY PROTOCOLS WHICH MAY INCLUDE CALLING AHEAD AND/OR IMMEDIATELY PUTTING ON PPE (E.G., MASK) WHEN PRESENTING FOR CARE. YOU MUST NOTIFY HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS OF ANY TRAVEL HISTORY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
> 
> THIS OUTBREAK IS A DYNAMIC SITUATION. INFORMATION ON DEVELOPMENTS RELATED TO COVID-19 IS AVAILABLE FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA HTTPS://WWW.CANADA.CA/…/2019-NOVEL-CORONAVIRUS-INFECTION.HT…, THE UNITED STATES CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION HTTPS://WWW.CDC.GOV/CORONAVIRUS/2019-NCOV/SUMMARY.HTML AND THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION HTTPS://WWW.WHO.INT/WESTERNPA…/EMERGENCIES/NOVEL-CORONAVIRUS CAF PERSONNEL ARE ALSO ENCOURAGED TO REVIEW THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA WEBPAGE: QUOTE NOVEL CORONAVIRUS INFECTION: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS UNQUOTE AT HTTPS://WWW.CANADA.CA/…/201…/FREQUENTLY-ASKED-QUESTIONS.HTML
> 
> IF YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT A POTENTIAL EXPOSURE TO COVID-19 AND HAVE HAD FEVER AND EITHER COUGH OR SHORTNESS OF BREATH WITHIN 14 DAYS OF TRAVEL TO A COUNTRY EXPERIENCING A COVID-19 OUTBREAK OR YOU HAVE COME INTO CONTACT WITH A KNOWN COVID-19 PATIENT, SEEK MEDICAL CARE PROMPTLY. YOU MUST DISCLOSE YOUR EXPOSURE/POTENTIAL EXPOSURE TO YOUR HEALTH CARE TEAM AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
> IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN OUR RESPONSIVENESS TO THE GC AND THE CANADIANS WE SERVE, I EXPECT ALL CAF PERSONNEL TO MAINTAIN A MINDSET OF READINESS, VIGILANCE, AND RESILIENCE. J.H. VANCE, GEN, CDS


----------



## mariomike

There are now so many coronavirus patients that they are recommending guidelines on who should live and who should be left at home to die. 
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/who-gets-hospital-bed/607807/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=2020-03-11T16%3A56%3A39&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social …


----------



## Rifleman62

Does the leave policy include the USA? My granddaughter is on leave next week and is visiting us in AZ. Thanks.


----------



## brihard

*Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is in quarantine* after his wife developed symptoms after returning from London. Tests pending on her. They should get results back today, I believe.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pm-trudeau-self-isolating-after-wife-sophie-develops-flu-like-symptoms-1.4850159

Separately, Manitoba has its first presumptive case. 
https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/first-presumptive-case-of-covid-19-confirmed-in-manitoba-1.4849970

17 new cases in Ontario, including an infant.
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/newsalert-ontario-announces-17-new-cases-of-covid-19-including-one-baby


----------



## medicineman

Brihard said:
			
		

> Separately, Manitoba has its first presumptive case.
> https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/first-presumptive-case-of-covid-19-confirmed-in-manitoba-1.4849970



Yay...we're now officially in The S%$t.  At least they're setting up testing centres, albeit in Winnipeg.  Pity a pile of people live outside of Winnipeg, many of whom are snowbirds...so will end up continuing to show up at walk in clinics, GP clinics and ER's.  Fingies and toesies crossed that the other health regions will consider the same thing...they likely won't, but here's hoping, since many people are going outside of Winnipeg to seek ER care because things are busy as frig there already - including to get COVID tested - and now clogging up those depts.  People should be tested...but ER's should be only be used for testing if the patient concerned is SICK - not with mild fever and sniffles.

MM


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> There are now so many coronavirus patients that they are recommending guidelines on who should live and who should be left at home to die.
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/who-gets-hospital-bed/607807/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=2020-03-11T16%3A56%3A39&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social …



Because: Italy


----------



## mariomike

Washington State,



> The @IDMOD_ORG model shows active #COVID19 infections exceeding available hospital beds by a large margin by March 25 in King & Sno Counties, WA. Major impact to #EMS when that happens.
> https://twitter.com/SayreMR/status/1238107479826784257


----------



## dapaterson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Because: Italy



Who have more hospital beds per capita than Canada does.


----------



## brihard

Canada has at most 5000 ICU beds, most of which are usually filled. It won’t take much to push any particular region over capacity.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> It won’t take much to push any particular region over capacity.



Off Load Delay at hospital ERs is pretty bad at the best of times. 

eg: In Ottawa alone, paramedics waited more than 32,000 hours to off load their patients at Ottawa emergency rooms during the first seven months of 2019.

Add a pandemic to that equation ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Off Load Delay at hospital ERs is pretty bad at the best of times.
> 
> eg: In Ottawa alone, *paramedics waited more than 32,000 hours* to off load their patients at Ottawa emergency rooms during the first seven months of 2019.
> 
> Add a pandemic to that equation ...



OMFG.... I wonder what the cost (financial and human) is of a collective delay like that?


----------



## Remius

So the NHL is following suit with the NBA, Juno Awards, MLS and the Army Ball....

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-covid-19-suspended-season-1.5495002


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Who have more hospital beds per capita than Canada does.


Also, for the record, Italy has 12.5 ICU beds per 100K population, compared to Canada's 12.9 per 100K.  One huge factor is demographic:  Italy has a lot older population -- second oldest, overall, in the world to Japan. 


			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Canada has at most 5000 ICU beds, most of which are usually filled. It won’t take much to push any particular region over capacity.


As of 2015 according to this study, "286 hospitals with 3170 ICU beds and 4982 mechanical ventilators for critically ill patients."  A bit of a spread according to this 2016 report re:  per-capita #'s by province -- see attached chart.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest Johns Hopkins & WHO numbers ....


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Brihard said:
			
		

> Canada has at most 5000 ICU beds, most of which are usually filled. It won’t take much to push any particular region over capacity.



The concept of social distancing is merely to slow the rate of infection to prevent immediately overwhelming the healthcare system.


----------



## BDTyre

I think it's time to bring back the advice from the Americans during the Anthrax scare of 2001: just buy up plastic film and duct tape and start sealing up your house, vehicle, etc.


----------



## brihard

Colin P said:
			
		

> The concept of social distancing is merely to slow the rate of infection to prevent immediately overwhelming the healthcare system.



Correct. “Flatten the curve”.


----------



## medicineman

Brihard said:
			
		

> Canada has at most 5000 ICU beds, most of which are usually filled. It won’t take much to push any particular region over capacity.



This - and flu season isn't over yet, which invariably uses up those beds.  Also, there is a limit as to how many isolation units there are too - I want to say only 3 in my health region (two in my hospital, one in a smaller outlying one).  Also consider this - this is the time we often see an uptick in TB cases here in MB, so those beds are needed for those folks too.  

op:

MM


----------



## OceanBonfire

This "person"...



> *Told to Stay Home, Suspected Coronavirus Patient Attended Event With Dartmouth Students*
> 
> 
> _The worker at Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire was confirmed with the disease only after attending the mixer. Now a second man has tested positive._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Dr. Benjamin Chan, New Hampshire's state epidemiologist_
> 
> 
> BOSTON — When an employee of the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in New Hampshire showed signs of possible coronavirus last week, a medical worker who had examined him told him to avoid contact with others, pending further tests. Instead, he went to a mixer at a crowded music venue.
> 
> Three days later, he was confirmed as the state’s first coronavirus case.
> 
> And now a second case has been confirmed — a “close contact” of the patient’s — raising new questions about what should happen when suspected coronavirus patients ignore requests to self-quarantine.
> 
> The man, who had come down with flu-like symptoms after a trip to Italy, has now been officially ordered by New Hampshire’s health commissioner to isolate himself at home.
> 
> “The individual is complying now,” said Jake Leon, communications director for the New Hampshire Department of Health and Human Services.
> 
> News that a health care worker could have exposed students at the event last Friday night, a mixer for doctors and Dartmouth College students, swiftly reverberated on the nearby campus.
> 
> Students learned of a possible exposure in an email sent out by the university on Tuesday, which revealed that a man who later tested positive for coronavirus had attended the mixer held for students at the college’s Tuck School of Business on Feb. 28. The event occurred on the same day that the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had issued a new Italy travel advisory, warning all those who had recently been to the country to stay home and monitor their health for 14 days.
> 
> Across the country, thousands of travelers returning from places with substantial outbreaks of the virus have been asked to stay home and avoid contact with others for 14 days, a request that largely relies on the honor system. As the virus spreads, many worry that the recommendations are not always followed.
> 
> In the New Hampshire case, the man went to the doctor on Friday with a fever and respiratory symptoms and was tested for a range of possible ailments, health authorities said. Doctors advised him to quarantine himself, but did not test him for coronavirus until Monday, after other viruses were ruled out. He arrived at the social event hours after the warning on Friday.
> 
> Dartmouth College officials, in a message to students, said an investigation was underway to trace the close contacts of the individual, and said no Dartmouth students were considered close contacts to the patient at this time. It was unclear whether the second patient who tested positive had attended the mixer or was exposed at another time.
> 
> “The general vibe is we are all pretty concerned that this medical professional showed up to the event, despite being told to self-isolate,” said Christie Harrison, a first-year Tuck student who sang with the band that performed at the mixer on Friday night. She estimated that about a hundred business school students attended, along with 30 or 40 resident physicians associated with Dartmouth-Hitchcock, an academic medical center located near Dartmouth College.
> 
> “We all were just excited to have one of the last few parties of the quarter and be off campus,” Ms. Harrison said. She said investigators appear to have made efforts to trace those who interacted with the man at the mixer, and have asked them to self-quarantine. Those who did not interact with him, like herself, were simply told to monitor their health and alert authorities if they came down with symptoms, she said.
> 
> “The college was really great at communicating all of that to us, in a timely manner,” Ms. Harrison said. “The college has been really transparent with us throughout the process.”
> 
> Gunnar Esiason, a Tuck student who considered going to the mixer on Friday night, but did not, said he nonetheless felt distressed about the potential exposures because he has underlying health issues. “In my opinion, it is shocking that a health care worker would do this, if it is in fact true,” said Mr. Esiason. He has since left campus and was planning to take exams remotely.
> 
> The mixer was hosted at the Engine Room, a music and comedy venue in White River Junction, just across the border in Vermont. According to a message on the club’s Facebook page, owners received a call from Dr. Benjamin Chan, an epidemiologist with the New Hampshire Department of Health and Human Services, informing them that an individual who tested positive for coronavirus had attended the event on Friday night. Vermont health authorities had also been in touch.
> 
> The management said it was in the process of professionally cleaning the facility and had canceled at least three events that were to be held there this week.
> 
> Angry patrons wrote back on Facebook that the coronavirus patient should be jailed or fined.
> 
> But it appears that the patient was under no legal obligation to stay home at the time. Under New Hampshire law, a person who refuses to comply with a formal isolation order issued by the health commissioner is guilty of a misdemeanor. In other states, refusing to comply is a felony. But on Friday, the patient had not been diagnosed, and had merely been advised by a health care worker to stay home. The formal isolation order was issued after the mixer, after the patient was tested on Monday and the results were determined “presumed positive,” state authorities said.
> 
> New Hampshire officials have made clear in their public statements that they feel the patient acted irresponsibly. But he does not appear to have broken the law.
> 
> “You can’t bring criminal charges for being a bonehead or just not doing what you were told was advisable to do,” said Wendy Parmet, faculty director of the Center for Health Policy and Law at Northeastern University. “It’s not illegal to ignore the advice of your health care provider, or even the health department, until officials follow the particular procedures to issue a formal health order, and those procedures vary by state.”
> 
> There is a downside to punishing a single individual in such a case, she said.
> 
> “We certainly don’t want people to think that they shouldn’t get tested because if they do, they’ll open themselves up to criminal liability, or a policeman at the door enforcing quarantine,” she said. “Those are consequences that deter testing, treatment and compliance.”
> 
> The second New Hampshire patient who tested positive for coronavirus, also a man from Grafton County, is also under isolation at home.
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/04/us/coronavirus-new-hampshire-dartmouth.html


----------



## brihard

Ontario is closing schools for three weeks.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-close-all-public-schools-for-two-weeks-after-march-break/


----------



## dapaterson

Government of Canada is hiring nurses.

https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1423325

COVID-19 Nurse - Inventory

The Health Portfolio Operations Centre (HPOC) is activated at Level 3, to support effective coordination of federal, provincial and territorial preparedness and response to the emergence of novel coronavirus (COVID-19) in China.

Due to intensity of efforts to support this activation, enhanced border measures at airports and quarantine of repatriated Canadians, the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) has an urgent need to establish a roster of nurses who can support ongoing efforts.

This includes a need for quarantine officers, nurse managers, and other registered nurses.


----------



## OldSolduer

All this is serious and concerning but

THEY SUSPENDED THE NHL SEASON!!!

 :facepalm:


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> Ontario is closing schools for three weeks.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-close-all-public-schools-for-two-weeks-after-march-break/



Pretty sure that with this and the strike days these kids have had, that they will be spending July in a classroom.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

The latest on the COVID-19 infection rate from the Worldometer website:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> All this is serious and concerning but
> 
> THEY SUSPENDED THE NHL SEASON!!!
> 
> :facepalm:



A guy I know, who is a hockey nut, brought that up today and sounded glum. So I cheered him up with the following observation:

"Great... that means the Army has unrestricted use of the ice rinks for emergency morgues!"

Top tip: if you ever want a strange look from a civvy, that'll do it for you


----------



## OceanBonfire

Closure of Disney businesses in California until the end of the month:

https://twitter.com/DisneyParksNews/status/1238199876824879104


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> "Great... that means the Army has unrestricted use of the ice rinks for emergency morgues!"



The Memorial Arena in Woodbridge, ON served as a morgue for the victims of the California Galaxy air disaster. 

I think scrambling reefer trucks for garden variety disasters is more common than using municipal areas. 

Although municipal arenas are part of the plan, it would take a pretty high death toll to require their use. The figure I heard was 5,000. 

eg: The rink in the World's Fair New York City building in Queens was prepared as a morgue on Sept. 11, 2001. But, it was never used.

I didn't get to see the new morgue that was built at Keele and Wilson after I retired. But, from what I have been told, it has a pretty big cooler, and includes something called a, "Containment Level 3 morgue. Used for cases of highly infectious diseases such as SARS, the first of its kind in Canada." 

Depending on volume, there might not be much formality involved. Apparently New York City is prepared to ferry inmates from Riker's Island to Hart's Island to dig mass graves,



> If the city’s beefed-up cadaver storage and cremation facilities were overwhelmed, bodies will be ferried over to Hart Island, a desolate spit of land off the coast of the Bronx in Long Island Sound that functions as the city’s public cemetery. Prisoners from nearby Rikers Island will be brought in to dig graves for the corpses of the stricken.
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/rikers-inmates-will-dig-graves-if-coronavirus-batters-new-york


----------



## FJAG

Disney World and Universal Orlando closing this Sunday for two weeks

 :'(


----------



## macarena

macarena said:
			
		

> (...)
> In Brazil, the official report from the government [1], yesterday, announced 8 confirmed cases.
> Today morning, the state of Bahia [2] (northeastern region), confirmed its 1st case, bringing us to a total of 9.
> (...)



Hi, mates!
I regret to inform, but Brazil seems to have just reach 100 cases [1]. To make it worst, it seems to have double the confirmed cases in 2 days.
Hospital in São Paulo state has confirmed today 60 cases in a single day [2].
The official word from the Brazilian Ministry of Health about these new cases didn't came yet.


[1] Wikipedia - but points out to many references
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Brazil

[2] in portuguese only
https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2020/03/12/hospital-albert-einstein-em-sp-confirma-98-casos-de-coronavirus-ate-esta-quinta-feira.ghtml


----------



## dapaterson

The PM's wife has tested positive, which results in the following obvious question:


What was she doing with Tom Hanks?


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The PM's wife has tested positive, which results in the following obvious question:
> 
> 
> What was she doing with Tom Hanks?



Oh you are good! 👍


----------



## SupersonicMax

CAF members are now prohibited to travel outside of Canada for both personal and work reasons!


----------



## dapaterson

First Nations twitter is lit:

Look, I fully support banning travel from Europe to prevent the spread of infectious disease. 

I just think it’s 528 years too late.

https://twitter.com/rebeccanagle/status/1238229779666657282


----------



## medicineman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> First Nations twitter is lit:
> 
> Look, I fully support banning travel from Europe to prevent the spread of infectious disease.
> 
> I just think it’s 528 years too late.
> 
> https://twitter.com/rebeccanagle/status/1238229779666657282



 :rofl:

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The PM's wife has tested positive, which results in the following obvious question:
> 
> 
> What was she doing with Tom Hanks?



But don't worry, the PM isn't bothering to be tested because "he doesn't have any symptoms right now".

Real smart.


----------



## NavyShooter

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> CAF members are now prohibited to travel outside of Canada for both personal and work reasons!




How about DND civilian employees?

How about Class A Reserves?


----------



## medicineman

ZDoggMD update on what happens if you get sick with this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyQj1HtWTEo

MM


----------



## dapaterson

I expect clarity on those sorts of issues over the next day or so


----------



## Spencer100

dapaterson said:
			
		

> First Nations twitter is lit:
> 
> Look, I fully support banning travel from Europe to prevent the spread of infectious disease.
> 
> I just think it’s 528 years too late.
> 
> https://twitter.com/rebeccanagle/status/1238229779666657282



I laughed at that one 

Plus I had tickets to Universal Studios damn


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> But don't worry, the PM isn't bothering to be tested because "he doesn't have any symptoms right now".
> 
> Real smart.



That’s a medical call. Especially if newly infected, it might not be present in the nose yet. No point swabbing false negatives. They’ll be assuming he is anyway, and as soon as he shows symptoms I’m sure he’ll get the joyful experience of the deep nose swab too. Friggin’ sucked when I got it done.


----------



## tomahawk6

The National Guard has deployed 150 troops to the effort.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/more-than-150-national-guard-troops-activated-for-coronavirus-response-in-four-states-1.622227


----------



## Good2Golf

Brihard said:
			
		

> That’s a medical call. Especially if newly infected, it might not be present in the nose yet. No point swabbing false negatives. They’ll be assuming he is anyway, and as soon as he shows symptoms I’m sure he’ll get the joyful experience of the deep nose swab too. Friggin’ sucked when I got it done.



Worse than being a bit drunk and snorting your dog-tag chain through your nose and through the back of your throat and out your mouth?  #askingforafriend


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Worse than being a bit drunk and snorting your dog-tag chain through your nose and through the back of your throat and out your mouth?  #askingforafriend



Probably? Dog tags are smooth. I've had a nasalpharyngeal airway inserted the whole way, and that sucked, but wasn't as profoundly uncomfortable as this was. And at leas the NPA had lube. The 'swab' is in fact covered in bristles.


----------



## medicineman

Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably? Dog tags are smooth. I've had a nasalpharyngeal airway inserted the whole way, and that sucked, but wasn't as profoundly uncomfortable as this was. And at leas the NPA had lube. The 'swab' is in fact covered in bristles.



At least the newer ones are more flexible - old ones were wire that didn't have a good much bend in them.  These are much more pleasant.


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What was she doing with Tom Hanks?


Being on his island so long, maybe he needed a change from Wilson?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest Johns Hopkins #'s from overnight ....


----------



## 211RadOp

> *Canadian scientists make COVID-19 research breakthrough, isolating virus*
> 
> Nicole Bogart
> 
> Nicole Bogart CTVNews.ca Writer
> @nlynnbogart Contact
> .Published Friday, March 13, 2020 9:13AM EDT  Last Updated Friday, March 13, 2020 9:55AM EDT
> 
> TORONTO --A group of Canadian scientists has successfully isolated and grown copies of the novel coronavirus responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic, paving the way for a potential vaccine.
> 
> Researchers say isolating the virus will help develop treatments, vaccines and tests for the virus and allow them to conduct long-term research to understand the biology of COVID-19.
> 
> "We need key tools to develop solutions to this pandemic,” Dr. Samira Mubareka, microbiologist and infectious diseases physician at Sunnybrook, said in a statement.
> 
> “While the immediate response is crucial, longer-term solutions come from essential research into this novel virus."
> 
> The team, made up of scientists from Sunnybrook Hospital, McMaster University and the University of Toronto, used samples taken from two Canadian COVID-19 patients to replicate the virus in a level three containment facility at the University of Toronto in a matter of weeks.
> 
> Mubareka says having access to the virus will allow researchers to start working on potential solutions to the pandemic before the outbreak peaks in Canada.
> 
> Meanwhile, Quebec-based biotech Medicago says it has taken the first step towards a vaccine by producing a virus-like particle of the novel coronavirus, which will now undergo testing for safety and efficacy.
> 
> As of Friday morning, there were 159 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in Canada, including the Prime Minister’s wife Sophie Gregoire Trudeau.
> 
> The virus, declared a pandemic earlier this week by the World Health Organization, has infected 135,318 people worldwide and killed 4,981. However, 69,642 people have recovered from the virus.



https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canadian-scientists-make-covid-19-research-breakthrough-isolating-virus-1.4851641


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Latest Johns Hopkins #'s from overnight ....



The Hopkins dashboard has been ‘stuck’ for over 24 hours. Diagnosed figures are probably 6-8k higher now. Undiagnosed cases are probably an order of magnitude larger...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Hopkins dashboard has been ‘stuck’ for over 24 hours. Diagnosed figures are probably 6-8k higher now. Undiagnosed cases are probably an order of magnitude larger...


Just updated - seems to be unstuck right now (although I can imagine the site being stressed) ...


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've had a nasalpharyngeal airway inserted the whole way, and that sucked, but wasn't as profoundly uncomfortable as this was. And at leas the NPA had lube. The 'swab' is in fact covered in bristles.



Never had a NPA done on me. But, if this test is anything similar, it sounds frigging horrible.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> That’s a medical call. Especially if newly infected, it might not be present in the nose yet. No point swabbing false negatives. They’ll be assuming he is anyway, and as soon as he shows symptoms I’m sure he’ll get the joyful experience of the deep nose swab too. Friggin’ sucked when I got it done.



I think the PM has shown the country exactly what he thinks of rules but it sounds like you have a better idea of the process than me. 

I think all the people in parliament who were with him the day before he self-isolated would probably feel better if he were tested but as you say it might give a false read.

It does appear like Canada has been pretty lazy with screening for this. There were probably a few stages between not a big deal and shutting the country down for a month we could have probably observed.

Mind you I was all for shutting down the borders and travel from day 1. Maybe I'm heavy handed but considering the last 24 hours I don't think so.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Mind you I was all for shutting down the borders and travel from day 1.



Try to hold off on that until next week. My wife is due back from Florida on Sunday night.


----------



## brihard

Looks like Ontario is going to be restricting testing to cases that require hospitalization. Objectively, makes sense. On the flip side it sucks because we will quickly lose the ability to even infer how wide the spread is. The next stats that will start to matter are ICU usage. Ontario has not had hospitalised cases so far that I know of, yet. That will quickly change with community spread.

https://twitter.com/Healthmac/status/1238347003320467456


----------



## Czech_pivo

Brihard said:
			
		

> Looks like Ontario is going to be restricting testing to cases that require hospitalization. Objectively, makes sense. On the flip side it sucks because we will quickly lose the ability to even infer how wide the spread is. The next stats that will start to matter are ICU usage. Ontario has not had hospitalised cases so far that I know of, yet. That will quickly change with community spread.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Healthmac/status/1238347003320467456



Just wait to about 5-8 days to all those Ontarians who went down to the US for March break come back.  Our cases will triple easily at that point and then it will be too late to avoid the Italian scenario.


----------



## brihard

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Just wait to about 5-8 days to all those Ontarians who went down to the US for March break come back.  Our cases will triple easily at that point and then it will be too late to avoid the Italian scenario.



Yup, and university Spring Break cases are emerging already.


----------



## Rifleman62

You mean that we will be "stuck" in AZ for several months?


----------



## brihard

Fed Presser just now:

Deputy PM: 
- Cabinet meeting just ended.
- 'Every step necessary/whatever it takes' for health and economy.
- Guided by health professionals, best in the world.
- New NAFTA just ratified by HoC / Senate today, should get royal assent.

Minister of Health:
- Makes fun of deputy PM for being short and having an extra step behind the podium (LOL)
- Critical to limit spread and protect public health systems
- Constant contact with provincial/territorial counterparts
- 'We will be there beside the provinces and territories every step of the way'.
- Spoke with G7 counterparts to discuss recent developments
- Serious public health threat; crisis, and emergency.
- Working to contain spread globally.
- 2 months planning for 'worst case scenario'.
- Have to take additional measures each day; will cause disruptions in lives but incredibly necessary.
- Need to protect vulnerable particularly at risk of dying. Vulnerable, elderly, diabetes, etc.
- 'Slow the spread'
- 'Cannot reiterate how important it is' for all Canadians to take steps to save lives. Hygiene, stay home, etc.

Dr. Tam:
- 157 cases in Canada. SK, MB, NB, second case now at CFB Trenton.
- 15,000 tests to date.
- Europe reporting more cases than Asia
- 'Postpone.cancel all non-essential travel outside Canada'. Vacations, sports, conferences, etc.
- Travel abrod = subjected to measures in other countries, including reduced access to quality healthcare.
- Provinces/territories can and are imposing higher measures.
- 'Flatten the curve'. Self-isolate on return and monitor symptoms when returning form overseas.
- Shop/public transport off-peak hours.
- Increase social distancing to 2 meters.
- NOW is the time to postpone/cancel events.

Minister of Transport:
- 500+ pax cruise ships cannot dock in Canada until July, and all season in the arctic.
- Smaller cruise ships and ferries, there will be additional health measures TBD.
- Incoming overseas international flights are going to be limited to a smaller number of airports, more details shortly.

Minister of Public Safety:
- All ports of entry will have additional screening measures.
- International flights will concentrate into a few international airports to help screening.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*Trudeau says 'knee-jerk reactions' won't stop spread of COVID-19* 

Canada has no plan to ban foreign travellers arriving from coronavirus-affected regions

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid19-trudeau-coronavirus-travel-1.5486799



Article from 5 March.

An aggressive approach isn't always a bad thing.


----------



## Drallib

Rumor going around that CFB Gagetown will be 25% manning for 3 weeks.


----------



## mariomike

> QUARANTINE DIARY
> 
> Day 1: I have stocked up on enough non-perishable food and supplies to last me for months, maybe years, so that I can remain in isolation for as long as it takes to see out this pandemic
> 
> Day 1 + 45 minutes: I am in the supermarket because I wanted a Twix
> https://twitter.com/Michael1979/status/1238206615544872984


----------



## Lumber

Drallib said:
			
		

> Rumor going around that CFB Gagetown will be 25% manning for 3 weeks.



Same around Halifax. Nothing official yet, but a MATA/PATA clerk just moved my appointment because of it.

I'm not sure this is going to have the desired affect, this thing isn't going to be gone in 3 weeks, it might be just starting to get going!


----------



## Remius

Lumber said:
			
		

> Same around Halifax. Nothing official yet, but a MATA/PATA clerk just moved my appointment because of it.
> 
> I'm not sure this is going to have the desired affect, this thing isn't going to be gone in 3 weeks, it might be just starting to get going!



The point is to try and spread the length of time for infection to take hold.  Better we all get sick in a spread out way rather than get sick all at once.  Estimates say 30 to 70 percent of Canadians will get this so better to spread that out overt time to better manage it. 

In related news:  https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ottawa-orders-federal-bureaucrats-to-work-from-home

Word is just trickling in officially where I work.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding available ICU beds in Ontario,



> In Ontario, the baseline for many intensive care units is to have one or two beds available
> https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/03/12/ontario-hospitals-prepare-for-worst-case-scenario-in-coronavirus-outbreak.html


----------



## dapaterson

Ontario's chief medical officer Dr. David Williams says to "avoid all non-essential travel outside of Canada" and the "immediate suspension" of all gatherings over 250 people because of the risks of #COVID19. #onpoli

https://twitter.com/robferguson1/status/1238480024682070018


----------



## The Bread Guy

Early reports caveats apply as usual ...


> Federal bureaucrats will be allowed to work from home if possible for the foreseeable future amidst the COVID-19 virus pandemic, the National Post has learned.
> 
> “Let me be crystal clear, we’ll be as flexible as humanly possible,” said Jean-Yves Duclos, president of the Treasury Board.
> 
> The new directive from the Treasury Board Secretariat, which acts as the federal government’s employer, will be issued on Friday to all federal departments.
> 
> Follow our liveblog for up-to-date coverage on COVID-19 in Canada and around the world: Canada weighs a ban on non-essential foreign travel
> Thus, the roughly 300,000 federal employees will be allowed to stay away from their offices throughout the country as long as their job allows it. Each employee is encouraged to refer to their respective managers to see how this new order applies to them.
> 
> For others who’s presence at the workplace is vital to their job, such as some Parks Canada employees for example, new directives sent out Friday morning by the Chief Human Resources Officer ask to self-monitor closely for any symptoms of the virus ...


More here.


----------



## mariomike

Now trending on Twitter, #BoomerRemover.


----------



## Drallib

RCR's in Gagetown are stood down for 2 weeks.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the CDS (source)


----------



## OldSolduer

Corrections Officers don’t have much choice in the matter. We’ve received very little in the way of direction. 
My co worker and I have auto immune issues. So we are vulnerable but I haven’t contracted an illness in a long while.

Mind you jails are breeding grounds for all kinds of diseases.


----------



## Drallib

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From the CDS (source)



Pretty sad when we find out more information from Twitter than the CoC.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Really?  You would rather hear this 2 days from now from your Section Commander?  In this day and age of flattened hierarchies and lateral communications?

This is what right looks like - get the info out as quickly as possible directly to those affected.


----------



## tomahawk6

I saw somewhere where the CG US ARMY Europe had self quarantined.


----------



## mariomike

For members of our emergency services, if under quarantine, but mandated to report for duty anyway, this may be a good time to review your collective agreements on the subject,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/131801.0.html


----------



## tomahawk6

If this is true than the PM might also be at risk. Hope M Trudeau has a speedy recovery.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-trudeaus-wife-tests-positive-for-new-coronavirus/ar-BB117s22?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> ...  jails are breeding grounds for all kinds of diseases.


And like with hospitals, can't do much of the real work from home.  Stay safe, HS.


----------



## my72jeep

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If this is true than the PM might also be at risk. Hope M Trudeau has a speedy recovery.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-trudeaus-wife-tests-positive-for-new-coronavirus/ar-BB117s22?ocid=spartanntp


 yes a speedy recovery to Mrs Trudeau... for her hubby meh not so much.


----------



## Blackadder1916

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From the CDS (source)
> 
> . . .  I expected our command and control headquarters to continue operations, albeit at reduced levels and some units may be able to stand down to essential command and administrative functions only.  . . .



So, when the CAF comes out the other end of this tunnel, will anyone look at whether reducing HQ manpower levels and doing only "essential" tasks hindered or improved operations?


----------



## brihard

It's true, all over the news yesterday. PMJT is in quarantine and will be monitored for symptoms. He can do most of his work that way easily enough.

Neither of them is medically high risk. I'm more concerned about who they had contact with among our political and governmental cohort. Also, this introduces the risk of contagion into the RCMP protective members in Ottawa, as she likely had a close protection officer nearby on the trip. While such members would similarly be likely medical low risk, this now begins potentially compromising the capacity of the RCMP to re-task and respond as this becomes a bigger deal in coming weeks...


----------



## dapaterson

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> So, when the CAF comes out the other end of this tunnel, will anyone look at whether reducing HQ manpower levels and doing only "essential" tasks hindered or improved operations?



There are three main tasks performed by a HQ:

1. Those which have immediate effect
2. Those which have long-term effect
3. Those which are useless

The challenge is in differentiating between the last two types in a situation like this.  Too often, type 2 are not understood and assumed to be type 3 by leaders only ever trained or experienced in type 1.


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And like with hospitals, can't do much of the real work from home.  Stay safe, HS.



Thank you. I’ve become far more conscientious about hand washing.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are three main tasks performed by a HQ:
> 
> 1. Those which have immediate effect
> 2. Those which have long-term effect
> 3. Those which are useless
> 
> The challenge is in differentiating between the last two types in a situation like this.  Too often, type 2 are not understood and assumed to be type 3 by leaders only ever trained or experienced in type 1.



I have often said that the role of a higher headquarters is to shield shit and add value....not the other way around


----------



## observor 69

My local grocery store this morning. All kinds of shelves with empty stock. This afternoon in my local "Shoppers Drug" all toilet paper being cleaned out. Maybe this isn't a panic but it is the next thing to it.


----------



## Remius

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> My local grocery store this morning. All kinds of shelves with empty stock. This afternoon in my local "Shoppers Drug" all toilet paper being cleaned out. Maybe this isn't a panic but it is the next thing to it.



There were 200 people in line before the Costco opened in Kanata this morning.  No toilet paper to be found lol.


----------



## my72jeep

One of my co workers bought 3 cases of TP yesterday, one went today to just get one package all out, talk about a shit storm in the break room this afternoon when coworker #1 refused to sell a package to coworker #2 for less than $100.


----------



## dapaterson

You work with assholes.


----------



## OldSolduer

my72jeep said:
			
		

> One of my co workers bought 3 cases of TP yesterday, one went today to just get one package all out, talk about a crap storm in the break room this afternoon when coworker #1 refused to sell a package to coworker #2 for less than $100.



What a fu$king jerk.


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You work with assholes.


And you're being kind ...


----------



## garb811

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ...
> I think all the people in parliament who were with him the day before he self-isolated would probably feel better if he were tested but as you say it might give a false read.
> ...


And that's the line of thinking that is causing has caused this to turn into a massive shit show.

People who don't have symptoms being tested takes that testing kit and laboratory time away from people who actually are showing signs and symptoms and causes the entire system to grind to a halt.

Same goes for all the idiots who are out there stocking up on 5 years worth of toilet paper and 3 years worth of cooking oil, canned beans and tuna, and rice.  All they are doing is adding stress to an already stressed scenario and pushing this into a full-blown public panic.

And, FFS, buying multiple cases of bottled water? I'm unable to fathom that leap of logic given what we know about the virus and how it spreads. Next up people will be stripping the shelves of generators and plywood, while stockpiling jerry cans of gas in their basement of their bunkered houses in preparation for the zombie apocalypse.


----------



## my72jeep

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You work with assholes.


Lady school bus drivers freaking vicious they are


----------



## Jarnhamar

garb811 said:
			
		

> And that's the line of thinking that is causing has caused this to turn into a massive shit show.
> 
> People who don't have symptoms being tested takes that testing kit and laboratory time away from people who actually are showing signs and symptoms and causes the entire system to grind to a halt.



Maybe. 

I think the fact that his wife is positive is enough probable cause to test him for it considering who he is and they key members of our country he litterally rubs shoulders with.

Now if he tests positive in a week the people who he possibly infected lost a week of warning and they continued to infect others.


----------



## BDTyre

Just got notice that my unit is stood down for three weeks and that included having my BAP course delayed for minimum 3 weeks.


----------



## MilEME09

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Just got notice that my unit is stood down for three weeks and that included having my BAP course delayed for minimum 3 weeks.



Mine just did as well until April, which pretty much folows the directive by the CDS to cancel all non-essential training


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe.
> 
> I think the fact that his wife is positive is enough probable cause to test him for it considering who he is and they key members of our country he litterally rubs shoulders with.
> 
> Now if he tests positive in a week the people who he possibly infected lost a week of warning and they continued to infect others.



Should he be tested? He’s in quarantine.  Not much else can be done even if he is positive.  She came back on wed night with symptoms.  He self quarantined just in case despite not showing symptoms himself.  His contact with whoever was likely limited and even if he somehow caught it wed night and somehow became immediately contagious (so far it does not seem that COVID 19 spreads that fast) and infected whoever he was in contact with for that limited time then yeah, maybe but seems very unlikely that he would have infected anyone. 

He likely got advice from professionals.  Professionals are not actually recommending testing anyone not actually showing symptoms at this time. 

I get that some people are trying to find fault in Trudeau, just like down south they are criticizing Trump for not testing despite multiple contacts with now diagnosed people.  But they are just just following the current guidelines.  The fact that Trudeau self quarantined is enough to show that he he is following recommendations the gvt is telling us to follow.


----------



## BDTyre

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Mine just did as well until April, which pretty much folows the directive by the CDS to cancel all non-essential training



My schedule is definitely freed up quite a bit now.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe.
> 
> I think the fact that his wife is positive is enough probable cause to test him for it considering who he is and they key members of our country he litterally rubs shoulders with.
> 
> Now if he tests positive in a week the people who he possibly infected lost a week of warning and they continued to infect others.



And his doctors are probably just following the Ontario public health guidelines (as they should)

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/laboratory-services/test-information-index/wuhan-novel-coronavirus


> Who to test:
> 
> PHO Laboratory will accept specimens for COVID-19 testing from individuals meeting criteria for a person under investigation (PUI) or probable case for COVID-19 as outlined by the Ministry of Health.
> 
> Clinical presentations that do not fit case definition, but are considered at risk of COVID-19 by the assessing clinician will also be accepted for testing. PHO is not currently recommending routine testing of asymptomatic persons for COVID-19. If the clinician would like to further discuss the role for testing the PHO Microbiologists on-call are available and can be contacted through the PHO Laboratory's Customer Service Centre at 416-235-6556 / 1-877-604-4567 or the After-Hours Emergency Duty Officer at 416-605-3113.
> 
> Mandatory data accompanying testing requests:
> 
> In order to expedite testing, as of February 10, 2020 PHO Laboratory pre-approval for COVID-19 testing is no longer required, provided that the following mandatory information is included on the specific PHO COVID-19 Test Requisition:
> 
> 1.  Whether the individual meets criteria for a person under investigation (yes/ no)
> 2.  Travel history (country and dates)
> 3.  Exposure history (contact of PUI, case or probable case (yes/no), and details of any exposure)
> 4.  Clinical information (e.g. fever, cough, rhinorrhea, pneumonia) including symptom onset date
> 5.  Specimen type
> 6.  Patient setting


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Remius] 

I get that some people are trying to find fault in Trudeau, just like down south they are criticizing Trump for not testing despite multiple contacts with now diagnosed people.  But they are just just following the current guidelines.  The fact that Trudeau self quarantined is enough to show that he he is following recommendations the gvt is telling us to follow.
[/quote]

I wasn't tracking his wife got home Wednesday night and he immediately put himself in quarantine. Good precaution in that case (and poor assumption in mine).


----------



## brihard

Too soon to say of course, but I wonder about the impact on PRes full time summer employment- and the consequential ability to surge troops for flood and fire season...


----------



## MilEME09

Brihard said:
			
		

> Too soon to say of course, but I wonder about the impact on PRes full time summer employment- and the consequential ability to surge troops for flood and fire season...



If this continues I could see them banning travel for courses that are not local, ie not traveling to Borden from Victoria, but if you live in Toronto it's okay. We may see more content go on DND learn as well.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wasn't tracking his wife got home Wednesday night and he immediately put himself in quarantine. Good precaution in that case (and poor assumption in mine).



For the rest record I wasn’t insinuating you were trying to find fault in Trudeau (it kind of comes off that way, sorry I probably should have worded it differently).  And you, like a lot of us have so many questions.  I didn’t know either but took a deeper look into the story.  In fact he’s likely being over cautious. But I’m sure the backlash would have been worse if kept going about his business.  Better safe than sorry.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> For the rest record I wasn’t insinuating you were trying to find fault in Trudeau (it kind of comes off that way, sorry I probably should have worded it differently).  And you, like a lot of us have so many questions.  I didn’t know either but took a deeper look into the story.  In fact he’s likely being over cautious. But I’m sure the backlash would have been worse if kept going about his business.  Better safe than sorry.



All good, I spoke too soon. I'd still pay for him to take the test Brihard described  :nod:

I think the actions we're taking now are great. Putting the country on pause for a few weeks, offering financial aid, caf standing down, I believe there's talk about job protection for workers.

I think our 'not a big deal' approach really put us behind the ball and we should have treated this more seriously sooner.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Coronavirus Is Creating a Huge, Stressful Experiment in Working From Home

Even before the pandemic struck, remote work was accelerating in the U.S. But the next few months will be a very strange test of our white-collar future.

"In the current panic, Twitter is filled with rosy predictions that the virus will be an inflection point in the future of distributed work. But a pandemic is not an appropriate time to determine what kind of labor arrangement is optimally productive on a per-worker basis. It is rather a moment for companies to build out the kind of technology and culture that, when the economy is back to full force, could make remote work easier for those who want to take advantage of it in a future where white-collar work might involve a little less commuting and a little more home."

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-creating-huge-stressful-experiment-working-home/607945/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I hear that some IT departments are struggling to source laptops as everyone is trying to set up their employees at the same time, along with a down turn in product from overseas.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think our 'not a big deal' approach really put us behind the ball and we should have treated this more seriously sooner.



The WHO called everyone racist who said we should ban travel to affected countries weeks ago. They (and the CDC) also said for weeks that COVID-19 was "low risk". Everything is low risk until its not. I won't blame governments who were working on information from supposed experts who told us not to worry.

That being said, hockey's been cancelled so Canada will have a vaccine sorted out in about 3 days. Don't @#$@ with the Stanley Cup playoffs.


----------



## garb811

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If this continues I could see them banning travel for courses that are not local, ie not traveling to Borden from Victoria, but if you live in Toronto it's okay. We may see more content go on DND learn as well.


That's already in place as per the CDS' letter; schools will keep running, with most students being confined to base, but no new entrants will be joining. 

In the case of the MP Academy that means two courses have been cancelled so far (6B and CPOC).  They are looking at possibly shifting the 6B to distance learning if they can make it work.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Given how bad it is in Italy right now, can someone finally come out and say the Communist Party of China hasn't been 100% transparent in how bad this virus actually is?

If you can stomach it, do a little deep dive on the web, you might be shocked what you find.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Too soon to say of course, but I wonder about the impact on PRes full time summer employment- and the consequential ability to surge troops for flood and fire season...



Our food supply relies on two things. Migrant workers for local produce....who will now not appear, and a precarious supply chain to the American southwest that is likely to be severed. I see a summer employment plan in there somewhere


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Summer Youth Employment and a recession might actually help our recruitment both in the Reserves and Reg force. Always a silver lining in the cloud....


----------



## MilEME09

garb811 said:
			
		

> That's already in place as per the CDS' letter; schools will keep running, with most students being confined to base, but no new entrants will be joining.
> 
> In the case of the MP Academy that means two courses have been cancelled so far (6B and CPOC).  They are looking at possibly shifting the 6B to distance learning if they can make it work.



I was more referring to the coming summer, I know I have a course in June, if this gets worse I'll guess everything will be cancelled until it gets better.


----------



## NavyShooter

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Really?  You would rather hear this 2 days from now from your Section Commander?  In this day and age of flattened hierarchies and lateral communications?
> 
> This is what right looks like - get the info out as quickly as possible directly to those affected.



In 26+ years that I was in the RCN, I can think of exactly zero times that I received an email chain that commenced with the CDS.  

Twice since I joined the PRes last year, I have received email chains that ended with the letters JV.

I showed the one I received today to a PO2 in my unit at my day job - he was acting 3 levels above his current position today due to absences - and he was...fascinated.  

Getting the word out is something that I see the Army is better at than the Navy.  In the Navy, that email chain would have been redacted and truncated with the local 'vision' and interpretation applied.  

In this case, Commander's Intent was clearly broadcast and easily understood.  Yes.  This is what right looks like.



From the Commander's Intent, this is what I passed on to my Company staff and soldiers:  


> Troops, we have received an update from the CDS and clarity of direction from our Chain of Command. The formal name for the CAF Response Plan is "OP LASER"
> 
> In short, no training/parades/courses/etc for at least the next 3 weeks. This includes both BMQ 0765, and 0770.
> Only essential core activities will continue.
> CAF Members are prohibited from attending or hosting public events.
> There are more details, however, in short, in order to preserve the force that exists, CAF personnel are to protect themselves from possible infection and reduce the spread.
> If you feel that you may have COVID-19, please contact the public health authorities (811) to take the necessary steps that they direct.
> And wash your damn hands.


----------



## garb811

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I was more referring to the coming summer, I know I have a course in June, if this gets worse I'll guess everything will be cancelled until it gets better.


It has nothing to do with it "getting worse", the direction on courses is already out and that will apply until it is rescinded.

So, if we maintain the current state, yes, your course will be cancelled; hopefully we will be well past this by that point though.


----------



## daftandbarmy

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> In 26+ years that I was in the RCN, I can think of exactly zero times that I received an email chain that commenced with the CDS.
> 
> Twice since I joined the PRes last year, I have received email chains that ended with the letters JV.
> 
> 
> I showed the one I received today to a PO2 in my unit at my day job - he was acting 3 levels above his current position today due to absences - and he was...fascinated.
> 
> 
> Getting the word out is something that I see the Army is better at than the Navy.  In the Navy, that email chain would have been redacted and truncated with the local 'vision' and interpretation applied.
> 
> 
> In this case, Commander's intent was clearly broadcast and easily understood.  Yes.  This is what right looks like.



So, you clearly weren't checking your filing cabinets for a letter, like I was in New Westminster, in the early 90s just because the CDS 'lost it', right?


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So, you clearly weren't checking your filing cabinets for a letter, like I was in New Westminster, in the early 90s just because the CDS 'lost it', right?



You had to stop your real job for that too eh?  Thought my boss was the only one that followed silly message traffic like that  ;D

MM


----------



## NavyShooter

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So, you clearly weren't checking your filing cabinets for a letter, like I was in New Westminster, in the early 90s just because the CDS 'lost it', right?


I was on the HMCS Gatineau checking filing cabinets full of Technical Manuals for those documents...I found empty beer cans, but no 'important files'...


----------



## Jarnhamar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The WHO called everyone racist who said we should ban travel to affected countries weeks ago. They (and the CDC) also said for weeks that COVID-19 was "low risk". Everything is low risk until its not. I won't blame governments who were working on information from supposed experts who told us not to worry.



The experts really seemed to bomb predicting this.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=NavyShooter]

In this case, Commander's Intent was clearly broadcast and easily understood.  Yes.  This is what right looks like.

[/quote]

This wouldn't be the first time clear direction came from the top and sub units decided to interpret said direction creatively or put their own spin on it.


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So, you clearly weren't checking your filing cabinets for a letter, like I was in New Westminster, in the early 90s just because the CDS 'lost it', right?



Ah, the good old days, when we only ceased all ops just for a day searching for anything remotely linked to the Somalia virus.


----------



## Drallib

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Really?  You would rather hear this 2 days from now from your Section Commander?  In this day and age of flattened hierarchies and lateral communications?
> 
> This is what right looks like - get the info out as quickly as possible directly to those affected.



The info was out for over an hour when someone’s wife messaged them the tweet. It’s fine to tweet it out. I think that’s the best way with least amount of effort. But RCR reacted immediately I guess to it and sent everyone home. 

Doesn’t really matter how quick our CoC reacted because my unit is still working Monday.


----------



## daftandbarmy

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I was on the HMCS Gatineau checking filing cabinets full of Technical Manuals for those documents...I found empty beer cans, but no 'important files'...



That was a good example of an awful message from the top.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Navy League shuts down 
 Effective immediately ALL cadet training is on stand down until April 3, 2020.  This also includes optional training of band, drill, first aid, range, branch meetings, 125 events, etc.  Please note that this time may be extended depending on the progress of COVID-19.

For those of you that parade at a CF base, all military personnel have been advised that their facilities are closed to all and you will not be allowed on the base. 

SEA CADET PROGRAM:



In addition to the NLOC announcement, please read the latest announcement below from BGen Cochrane regarding the Sea Cadet program. In addition RCSU Pac has been instructed to stand down staff to essential services only. 



Sent on behalf of BGen D.B. Cochrane, Comd Natl CJCR Sp Gp // Envoyé au nom du Bgén D.B. Cochrane, Cmdt Gp S Nat CRJC



BILINGUAL E-MAIL / COURRIEL BILINGUE



CANCDTGEN 012/20



CADET PROGRAM CANCELLATION (3 WEEKS)



Refs: A. CATO 14-06 Training or Recreational Trips

B. CANFORGEN 039/20

C. 3350-Op LASER 20-01

D. CANCDTGEN 010/20 

1.      In response to developments in the outbreak of a novel coronavirus (COVID-19), the Natl CJCR Sp Gp has CANCELLED ALL CADET ACTIVITIES, including local training, for three weeks effective immediately. Prior to Friday, April 03, 2020, further direction will be provided, including the potential for this cancellation to be extended.

 The National Cadet and Junior Canadian Rangers Support Group (Natl CJCR Sp Gp) has been directed to adopt an aggressive posture to minimize personnel risk of exposure and to prevent the CAF and cadets from becoming a transmission vector. As such, CANCDTGEN 010/20 was released on March 12, 2020 issuing amplifying direction related to the execution of Cadet and Junior Canadian Ranger (JCR) activities, and preventative measures to better protect CAF members, cadets and JCRs and their families from COVID-19.

2.       The safety and welfare of all who participate in our programs is always our top priority, as such we take very seriously our responsibility to protect cadets from any real or apparent health or safety concern.

The Natl CJCR Sp Gp is collaborating with Department of National Defence and CAF as well as with other federal departments in order to maintain proper situational awareness on the COVID-19 situation in Canada and globally to synchronize interdepartmental response under the lead of Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada. As a result, the situation is continuously being monitored and decisions are made on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## ballz

Drallib said:
			
		

> Pretty sad when we find out more information from Twitter than the CoC.



That's because the CoC was blindsided.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> This is what right looks like - get the info out as quickly as possible directly to those affected.



Really??? Reminds me of Donald Trump. Division Commanders shouldn't be finding out from their civilian squash club that all training is cancelled and their troops are being sent home.


----------



## Halifax Tar

In 20 years of working in the Naval supply chain I have never heard recieved emails from my SSOs (Supporting Supply Organizations) telling me be they are shutting down for 3 weeks before... lol 

The best part, is while trying to establish some sort of communciations with my SSOs via FB Chat or eastlink email, the only reply I have recieved is from a wife asking how the trip was going so far lol 

Thank god for the DLSSOs...


----------



## Remius

So this came out on a Friday afternoon right?  Was it March break in most places or starting the March break?  How many units were “stood down”?  

To me it isn’t shocking if the twitter sphere and the facebook got to people before the COC did.


----------



## daftandbarmy

How Canada’s ‘Minister of Everything’ Sees the World

With Prime Minister Justin Trudeau going into quarantine, more responsibility may fall to his deputy, Chrystia Freeland. Her writing for The Atlantic offers a glimpse into her thinking.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/03/chrystia-freeland-democracy-and-capitalism/608014/ 

Canadian news sources have been calling the country’s deputy prime minister, Chrystia Freeland, the “minister of everything” for months. The recent spread of the coronavirus has only given that title more weight. A week ago, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau made Freeland the overseer of the federal response to the pandemic. And now, with Trudeau entering a 14-day quarantine after his wife, Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, tested positive for the disease, Freeland appears poised to take on still more responsibility.

Before entering the Canadian Parliament and, soon thereafter, the cabinet in 2013, Freeland worked full-time as a journalist. Articles she wrote for The Atlantic both before and after her election offer some insight into her view of geopolitics and the world economy—systems in which she’s now playing a more powerful role than ever before.

The global financial crisis, Freeland observed, shed new light on the increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of an elite few—a trend already evident for years at that point. But it also, she wrote, made it clear that “the rich of today are … different from the rich of yesterday … They are becoming a transglobal community of peers who have more in common with one another than with their countrymen back home.”

She argued that community represented a “new plutocracy” around the world, one that was preoccupied with creating wealth, starting philanthropic foundations, and combatting economic regulations. “America really does need many of its plutocrats,” she wrote, but what it needed them to do most is what they least wanted to: Share their wealth.

Freeland returned to the economy’s global elite, but this time focused on those among the group who, rather than working to preserve the current state of Western capitalism, were concerned that it had become dysfunctional.

“What made it possible to sell this version of capitalism to society was the promise that if businesses were allowed to simply get on with the job, all of us would be better off,” she wrote. But following the financial crisis, some executives were working to restore a model more like the one that dominated in the 1950s and ’60s, when “America’s business leaders widely believed they were responsible to the community as a whole, not just shareholders.”

“I believe that capitalist democracy has proved itself to be the only compelling, universalist vision of how to live the good life,” Freeland wrote. “But,” she argued, a “stable world order” had failed to emerge following the fall of the Berlin Wall, despite promises that globalization and the spread of market democracy would bring on a “golden age.”
What had resulted instead, she observed, was radicalism, polarization, and “economic malaise.” She argued that to succeed in the uneasy new state of the world, businesses would have to embrace the more sustainable philosophy of capitalism that she wrote about in 2013.

“Companies not only need to account for … internationality,” she wrote. “They also need to show that they are invested in the greater good.”


----------



## Jarnhamar

ballz said:
			
		

> That's because the CoC was blindsided.
> 
> Really??? Reminds me of Donald Trump. Division Commanders shouldn't be finding out from their civilian squash club that all training is cancelled and their troops are being sent home.



We're pretty slow at getting information passed down.


----------



## Infanteer

ballz said:
			
		

> That's because the CoC was blindsided.
> 
> Really??? Reminds me of Donald Trump. Division Commanders shouldn't be finding out from their civilian squash club that all training is cancelled and their troops are being sent home.



You are quite assertive considering you clearly know s**t about what you are talking about.  Senior leadership was not blindsided by this.


----------



## Infanteer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We're pretty slow at getting information passed down.



The chain of command is slow simply by how it is built - a troopie is 7 to 8 levels from the top.  At each level, information or direction has to be transmitted, processed, and retransmitted.  The slowness is the cost we pay to have a chain that is redundant, resilient, and can manage the largest of organizations.

In a rapidly evolving situation like the one we see now, a Charlie Charlie from the CDS is entirely appropriate to backstop the direction he previously passed to his Commanders.  Nowhere is it written that "thou shalt only receive any information from your section 2IC"


----------



## dapaterson

There's the additional benefit that commander's intent goes down multiple levels and does not get filtered / modified /outright contradicted along the way.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And it solves that pesky east coast/west coast problem about who pays for the rental car......


----------



## Brad Sallows

If the virus is beyond containment - now or in the near future - then most people are likely to be exposed anyways.  Will there ever be a "good" time for it?  Half-full cup: the sooner those with responsibility are exposed, contract it, and get over it, the sooner they'll be able to concentrate on their jobs if a larger surge of sick people is due later.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

I think the letter from the CDS was 100% on point.  It was was clear and concise and gives everyone an intent to work off of.

I am planning to put to sea on Monday as we speak and am at the grocery store stocking up on supplies to ensure my spouse is looked after while I am gone.


----------



## brihard

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I think the letter from the CDS was 100% on point.  It was was clear and concise and gives everyone an intent to work off of.
> 
> I am planning to put to sea on Monday as we speak and am at the grocery store stocking up on supplies to ensure my spouse is looked after while I am gone.



Figners crossed for you buddy, hope you don't get a sick ship.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If the virus is beyond containment - now or in the near future - then most people are likely to be exposed anyways.  Will there ever be a "good" time for it?  Half-full cup: the sooner those with responsibility are exposed, contract it, and get over it, the sooner they'll be able to concentrate on their jobs if a larger surge of sick people is due later.



At this point it’s all about ‘flattening the curve’ in order to protect the capacity of the critical/intensive care portion of the healthcare system. The more we can slow this down the better. The same total number over a longer time means lower peaks.

Epidemiologically we look to be about three weeks behind Italy. We are closer behind them in terms of distancing measures taken. Hopefully that helps. It may, or may not.

What’s going to really screw us is all the idiots traveling on March Break and then coming back. Watch for a new wave of infection chains starting in two to three weeks.


----------



## tomahawk6

Article about LTG Cavoli, self quartine. 

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/coronavirus-us-army-europe-commander-quarantine


----------



## NavyShooter

Exactly.  

The math of cases vs critical care cases vs ventilators/ICU's in Canada is fairly simple.

With about 4000 ICU beds, assuming 90% in use for 'other' critical care emergencies, that means we have 400 available at any given time.

With between 10-20% of cases requiring ICU/Ventilator, assuming best case of 10%, that means 4000 cases in Canada will max out our ICU's at current load.

With our numbers almost at the 'doubling daily' point in Canada - we're at 198 right now - we could see 1000 by mid-week, and 4000 by the end of next week.  

That maxes out our ICU/ventilators....when that happens, as happened in Italy, the Doctors will have to make the hard choices about triage - who gets the ventilator and ICU?  Who sits in the hallway and hopefully recovers?  Who sits in the room and dies?

The stats show that countries that can put enough of the patients on ventilator/ICU care keep a death rate below 1%, those who run out of ICU space go over 4%.  

Getting our infection rate to below that where our ICU/Critical patients are less than our maximum capacity is the key.

Yes - March Break returns are...concerning...but by the end of next week, things could be very interesting all the same.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

So I went grocery shopping this morning bright and early.   Lots of actual food still available as well as actual canned food.  

What I found funny:

Grocery stores had been raided of:

Toilet Paper
Lysol Wipes
Frozen Pizza
French Fries
Penne Noodles
Beef
Stag Chilli

Got some real good insight in to people's diets lmao.  I love how they think frozen pizza is gonna sustain them through a pandemic. :rofl:

Also, shelves were full of actual cleaning products. I bought some bleach, couple of things of bathroom cleaner, gloves, etc. 

As well, I bought 4 packs of extra strength ibuprofen and some other anti-inflammatories.  Given the number one symptom is high fever, very surprised there is so much ibuprofen left as NSAIDs help keep fever under control.


----------



## Drallib

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> So I went grocery shopping this morning bright and early.   Lots of actual food still available as well as actual canned food.
> 
> What I found funny:
> 
> Grocery stores had been raided of:
> 
> Toilet Paper
> Lysol Wipes
> Frozen Pizza
> French Fries
> Penne Noodles
> Beef
> Stag Chilli
> 
> Got some real good insight in to people's diets lmao.  I love how they think frozen pizza is gonna sustain them through a pandemic. :rofl:
> 
> Also, shelves were full of actual cleaning products. I bought some bleach, couple of things of bathroom cleaner, gloves, etc.
> 
> As well, I bought 4 packs of extra strength ibuprofen and some other anti-inflammatories.  Given the number one symptom is high fever, very surprised there is so much ibuprofen left as NSAIDs help keep fever under control.



I bought 2 packs of toilet paper because it was regular $17 on sale for $8. Not passing that up.

And there was so much Day Quill and ibuprofen and advil on the shelves. It seems people are all trying to not get sick. They can do their best but if you do get sick you're gonna want the medicine to help. I also got Castile Soap so I can make some cleaning supplies when I need it.

Frozen fruit and veg incase we have to stay inside for a while, oatmeal, almond milk that doesn't need refrigerating until its opened... stuff like that.

My wife's aunt was one of those people who bought $300 or so worth of toilet paper though... hahahaha


----------



## Jarnhamar

3 month supply of Mountain House freeze dried food, $3371  :nod:


----------



## dapaterson

Roasting more green coffee even as I type, so I can grind them fresh for tomorrow's coffee.

Because coffee.


----------



## The Bread Guy

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> The math of cases vs critical care cases vs ventilators/ICU's in Canada is fairly simple.


Note to corporate donors:  if you can read Italian, here's an article from area media near my parents' home town in Italy, where a local business/significant employer is donating ventilators and ultrasound machines to a local hospital.


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 3 month supply of Mountain House freeze dried food, $3371  :nod:


 :nod:  #BusinessGonnaBusiness


----------



## Nfld Sapper

> In this moment of emergency generated by the spread of coronavirus, Colacem SpA (Financo Group) wants to participate with concrete gestures in strengthening the Umbrian regional health system, by donating 4 lung fans and 3 ultrasound scanners for the early diagnosis of viral pneumonia at the Gubbio Hospital - Branch



Nice of them...

Google does an adequate job of translation...


----------



## MilEME09

Just read there is a presumed case at CFB Valcartier.


----------



## tomahawk6

I don't think this virus causes you to have the runs, so why hoard the TP ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PEI now has first confirmed case;  middle aged lady who was on a cruise.  Arrived back in the Island on 7th or 8th, symptoms on the 10th, tested on the 11th.  

Sure, you can blame the people who went on march break vacations...or you can blame the national leaders for letting those circumstances happen.  Or a combination of both.  IMO, this has been downplayed in the media and by the government (again, IMO).  Like a dead gunfighter back in the wild west, we might have been too slow to draw...hopefully it won't be catastrophic for our nation.


----------



## ballz

Infanteer said:
			
		

> You are quite assertive considering you clearly know s**t about what you are talking about.  Senior leadership was not blindsided by this.



You may be long in the tooth but you're obviously not at the coal face of implementing this stuff. This looks like a knee-jerk reaction to defend the institution that fed you all that kool-aid over the years. You can take the arrogance and go pound sand.

I'm a branch head and one was one the arseholes working on orders until the 11th hour on Thursday night related to the international travel ban and some other small bits of direction. At 22:30 Thursday night when the Comd signed the order, no one had any sweet clue that the next day all training would be cancelled and everyone would be sent home for 3 weeks. I have all the correspondence we get sent from Army so they were either running a real good feint on us or they also had no sweet ******* clue.

We found out between 0930-1000 when the 1-ups EA interrupted our 0900 exec coord to get the Comd's on the phone together. At that time the direction was limited to "all training less TMST is cancelled, critical manning only for 3 weeks... VTC at 1300... between now and then the staff will hopefully be able to pull out better direction to pass on." (some details left out for OPSEC) and that's how it all transpired out here.

So if your definition of "senior leadership" is a bunch of bobble-heads in Ottawa in at level 0, sure, I'm sure some of them knew. But if it's army, division, formation, and unit commanders, then no.

So, either I'm 1) a complete liar; 2) delusional because the above didn't actually happen but that's what I experienced Thursday/Friday; 3) all of the senior leadership ran a real good feint on their personal staff and they actually did know all along; or 4) senior leadership was blindsided.



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> In a rapidly evolving situation like the one we see now, a Charlie Charlie from the CDS is entirely appropriate *to backstop the direction he previously passed to his Commanders.*  Nowhere is it written that "thou shalt only receive any information from your section 2IC"



Except he didn't. But don't take my word for it, read his own words in the letter... "I will be issuing direction very soon..."


----------



## Remius

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I don't think this virus causes you to have the runs, so why hoard the TP ?



Because everyone else is I guess.

We go to Costco every two months.  I stock up on stuff like that because I hate going to Costco on a good day.  Did my run two weeks before the madness started.  So yeah, I always have a two to three month supply not because I hoard but because I hate going to Costco.


----------



## cld617

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Really?  You would rather hear this 2 days from now from your Section Commander?  In this day and age of flattened hierarchies and lateral communications?
> 
> This is what right looks like - get the info out as quickly as possible directly to those affected.



I would rather these sorts of messages be distributed simultaneously through social media and DWAN/CANFORGEN/email. I found out about through Instagram several hours prior to my CoC telling me anything, and I'm certainly not at the bottom of the totem pole.


----------



## SupersonicMax

ballz said:
			
		

> You may be long in the tooth but you're obviously not at the coal face of implementing this stuff. This looks like a knee-jerk reaction to defend the institution that fed you all that kool-aid over the years. You can take the arrogance and go pound sand.
> 
> I'm a branch head and one was one the arseholes working on orders until the 11th hour on Thursday night related to the international travel ban and some other small bits of direction. At 22:30 Thursday night when the Comd signed the order, no one had any sweet clue that the next day all training would be cancelled and everyone would be sent home for 3 weeks. I have all the correspondence we get sent from Army so they were either running a real good feint on us or they also had no sweet ******* clue.
> 
> We found out between 0930-1000 when the 1-ups EA interrupted our 0900 exec coord to get the Comd's on the phone together. At that time the direction was limited to "all training less TMST is cancelled, critical manning only for 3 weeks... VTC at 1300... between now and then the staff will hopefully be able to pull out better direction to pass on." (some details left out for OPSEC) and that's how it all transpired out here.
> 
> So if your definition of "senior leadership" is a bunch of bobble-heads in Ottawa in at level 0, sure, I'm sure some of them knew. But if it's army, division, formation, and unit commanders, then no.
> 
> So, either I'm 1) a complete liar; 2) delusional because the above didn't actually happen but that's what I experienced Thursday/Friday; 3) all of the senior leadership ran a real good feint on their personal staff and they actually did know all along; or 4) senior leadership was blindsided.
> 
> Except he didn't. But don't take my word for it, read his own words in the letter... "I will be issuing direction very soon..."



I am 2 steps below from our L1 and knew this was likely coming late Thursday PM.  As far as the letter goes, if the CDS tells you “I will be issuing these orders soon”, you better start planning on this now, noting any questions that may be raised.  The orders are coming down.  By 1400 yesterday, our unit was ready to implement the BCP and gave our folks D&G, before the order trickled down.


----------



## Weinie

ballz said:
			
		

> You may be long in the tooth but you're obviously not at the coal face of implementing this stuff. This looks like a knee-jerk reaction to defend the institution that fed you all that kool-aid over the years. You can take the arrogance and go pound sand.
> 
> I'm a branch head and one was one the arseholes working on orders until the 11th hour on Thursday night related to the international travel ban and some other small bits of direction. *At 22:30 Thursday* night when the Comd signed the order, no one had any sweet clue that the next day all training would be cancelled and everyone would be sent home for 3 weeks. I have all the correspondence we get sent from Army so they were either running a real good feint on us or they also had no sweet ******* clue.
> 
> We found out between 0930-1000 when the 1-ups EA interrupted our 0900 exec coord to get the Comd's on the phone together. At that time the direction was limited to "all training less TMST is cancelled, critical manning only for 3 weeks... VTC at 1300... between now and then the staff will hopefully be able to pull out better direction to pass on." (some details left out for OPSEC) and that's how it all transpired out here.
> 
> So if your definition of "senior leadership" is a bunch of bobble-heads in Ottawa in at level 0, sure, I'm sure some of them knew. But if it's army, division, formation, and unit commanders, then no.
> 
> So, either I'm 1) a complete liar; 2) delusional because the above didn't actually happen but that's what I experienced Thursday/Friday; 3) all of the senior leadership ran a real good feint on their personal staff and they actually did know all along; or 4) senior leadership was blindsided.
> 
> Except he didn't. But don't take my word for it, read his own words in the letter... "I will be issuing direction very soon..."



Depends on what you define as "senior leadership." Senior senior leadership issued direction to other senior senior leadership at 1932hrs on Thursday evening. No blindsiding of the bobble heads at that level. How your bobblehead chose to disseminate the information, obviously to your dissatisfaction, is something you should bring up to your chain of command.


----------



## The Bread Guy

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Nice of them...
> 
> Google does an adequate job of translation...


In comparison, this is like Ford doing this in Windsor (only the town in Italy has a population of ~35K).


----------



## Infanteer

ballz said:
			
		

> You may be long in the tooth but you're obviously not at the coal face of implementing this stuff. This looks like a knee-jerk reaction to defend the institution that fed you all that kool-aid over the years. You can take the arrogance and go pound sand.
> 
> I'm a branch head and one was one the arseholes working on orders until the 11th hour on Thursday night related to the international travel ban and some other small bits of direction.



Everyone give this guy a slow clap.   :violin:



> So, either I'm 1) a complete liar; 2) delusional because the above didn't actually happen but that's what I experienced Thursday/Friday; 3) all of the senior leadership ran a real good feint on their personal staff and they actually did know all along; or 4) senior leadership was blindsided.



You're likely (4) a staff captain who's allowed your criticism to turn to cynicism.  You should take a look in the mirror and ask some hard questions if your cynicism and defensiveness is how you handle a bit of friction in a fluid and evolving situation. 

I can attest to the posts above by Weinie and Max - the fact of the matter is that a warning order was sent out as soon as decisions were made, and and planning was occuring at multiple levels prior to Friday.  I personally observed Level 2 and 3 commanders acknowledging the CDS' forthcoming direction long before his letter was put on social media.

Excuse me while I drink some more kool-aid, but the fact is the CAF implemented the next phase of a nation-wide CONPLAN in roughly 12 hours, and the CDS backstopped his previously issued orders with a social media message knowing that not all 90,000+ members he is responsible for were going to get the info right away.  This is all a good sign that things roughly worked as they should have.


----------



## ballz

Weinie said:
			
		

> Depends on what you define as "senior leadership." Senior senior leadership issued direction to other senior senior leadership at 1932hrs on Thursday evening. No blindsiding of the bobble heads at that level. How your bobblehead chose to disseminate the information, obviously to your dissatisfaction, is something you should bring up to your chain of command.



Don't confuse what came out Thursday night with what came out Friday morning. I have exactly what came from the VCDS on Thursday night and it does not indicate anywhere that all training will be cancelled immediately, BCPs will be activated, and everyone will be going home Friday. What came out from the VCDS is why we were burning the midnight oil so COs could have something for Friday morning to pass on their people.

I don't know what you mean by "my" bobblehead, sounds like you are insinuating is was our local Comd that knew about this and just didn't pass it on. If so, drink a little less kool-aid and go re-read my post. If the info didn't get disseminated, it was a failure of the Ottawa bobbleheads who you allege knew about this all along.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I am 2 steps below from our L1 and knew this was likely coming late Thursday PM.



RUMINT is not substitute for actual direction in a professional military.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> As far as the letter goes, if the CDS tells you “I will be issuing these orders soon”, you better start planning on this now, noting any questions that may be raised.  The orders are coming down.  By 1400 yesterday, our unit was ready to implement the BCP and gave our folks D&G, before the order trickled down.



The letter was published Friday so you're just being obtuse, you're making it sound like it came out 5 days ago and everyone just sat around and did nothing. It came out Friday morning, via Twitter, for something he wanted done immediately. It's amatuer. We had everything in place by 1600 Friday, our "readiness" is not what's an issue here.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

The issue at the moment seems to be finer details as to how individual pers/units are to proceed. I read the CDS’s message yesterday at around 1330. By 1430ish the CO’s direction on finer points came down for those I work with (courses running, pdes, cancellation of mess events, FTUC expectations, etc.), then by 1630 my own unit was stood down “...for the next 3 weeks and/or unless otherwise notified.”

In touching base with friends posted in various locations of quite a few different trades, many haven’t been given any additional information yet beyond the CDS message and/or a general statement from the cmdr. It seems a mix of anticipation and confusion since things appear to be moving at a faster pace depending on where the individual is posted. It’s still quite early though. Tbh, I was a bit surprised at how quickly things came together in my area.


----------



## ballz

Infanteer said:
			
		

> how you handle a bit of friction in a fluid and evolving situation.



I'm quite fine at handling it. I, as did the rest of us, laughed our way through the silliness until it was done. And it was a lot sillier than it had to be.... leadership is supposed to bring calm to the chaos, not create it.


----------



## Infanteer

How should things have happened?


----------



## Weinie

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm quite fine at handling it. I, as did the rest of us, laughed our way through the silliness until it was done. And it was a lot sillier than it had to be.... leadership is supposed to bring calm to the chaos, not create it.



Wow......you have gone from Chicken Little to Confucius in two posts...quite an accomplishment.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

I did what the CDS told me to do.  This morning at 7am, I went to the grocery store and bought 1 months worth of supplies so that my family is ready for what comes next.

The #1 priority of all CAF members should be to ensure they have made the necessary arrangements at home WRT ensuring their loved ones are cared for so that in the coming days ahead, they are able to maintain their combat effectiveness.

My next priority is if we do not end up sailing, I am going to give my name in to the CoC and whoever's eventually gets tasked to respond to this,  I would like to volunteer with them, whether it's getting attach posted to a TBG or who ever.  I am a good planner and worker and want to be ready to help in any way I can.  It's what we are paid to do so let's just do it!  I don't even give a shit if it's walking around with a fumigator in the street in MOPP 4.

We all need to pull together and be ready to fight this thing.  Screw the semantics of who said and didn't say what or what the direction is.  Let's all get on the same page and send COVID 19 packing.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

:goodpost:

Now that is what leadership looks like and sounds like.


----------



## Infanteer

What, you mean leadership isn't calling your chain of command amateurs, your senior leaders bobbleheads, and arguing that anyone disagreeing with you has drank too much kool-aid?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Infanteer said:
			
		

> What, you mean leadership isn't calling your chain of command amateurs, your senior leaders bobbleheads, and arguing that anyone disagreeing with you has drank too much kool-aid?



I understand people are frustrated, it's a natural reaction to this and I wouldn't personally hold it against anyone.  

I know Ballz and he is a good worker and a smart guy and I know we have all had moments when we are frustrated with something.  I think we all just need to take a step back from what we are personally invested in and look at the bigger picture.

I remember 9/11/2001 and how much of a shock that was and tbh, this feels bigger, way bigger.  The PM is in isolation and his wife is sick FFS, let's not waste our energy insulting each other and getting mad about petty bullshit.

People are dying and this has the potential to impact many lives in a significant way.  The best thing we can do right now is be kind to one and other and work together to tackle this.

Apologies for the expletives.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I did what the CDS told me to do.  This morning at 7am, I went to the grocery store and bought 1 months worth of supplies so that my family is ready for what comes next.
> 
> The #1 priority of all CAF members should be to ensure they have made the necessary arrangements at home WRT ensuring their loved ones are cared for so that in the coming days ahead, they are able to maintain their combat effectiveness.
> 
> My next priority is if we do not end up sailing, I am going to give my name in to the CoC and whoever's eventually gets tasked to respond to this,  I would like to volunteer with them, whether it's getting attach posted to a TBG or who ever.  I am a good planner and worker and want to be ready to help in any way I can.  It's what we are paid to do so let's just do it!  I don't even give a shit if it's walking around with a fumigator in the street in MOPP 4.
> 
> We all need to pull together and be ready to fight this thing.  Screw the semantics of who said and didn't say what or what the direction is.  Let's all get on the same page and send COVID 19 packing.



Agreed. Unfortunately it’s rarely that cut and dry.

In general, several are just blowing much out of proportion. I mostly haven’t stocked up on things more than what I’d normally be prepared for during a standard cold & flu season. (And those of us with kids, especially younger ones, know that they can contract the oddest things on a consistent basis.) I always maintain thoroughly stocked medicine cabinets, toiletry necessities, etc. The person in front of me buying 18 boxes of Kleenex at Shoppers earlier today leaving none for the next person is what’s causing the problem. Who wants to place a wager on how many people will be kind enough to make sizeable food and other item donations when all is said and done because of all the crap they hoarded that they didn’t need? I’m guessing many won’t bother. :


----------



## SupersonicMax

ballz said:
			
		

> Don't confuse what came out Thursday night with what came out Friday morning. I have exactly what came from the VCDS on Thursday night and it does not indicate anywhere that all training will be cancelled immediately, BCPs will be activated, and everyone will be going home Friday. What came out from the VCDS is why we were burning the midnight oil so COs could have something for Friday morning to pass on their people.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "my" bobblehead, sounds like you are insinuating is was our local Comd that knew about this and just didn't pass it on. If so, drink a little less kool-aid and go re-read my post. If the info didn't get disseminated, it was a failure of the Ottawa bobbleheads who you allege knew about this all along.
> 
> RUMINT is not substitute for actual direction in a professional military.
> 
> The letter was published Friday so you're just being obtuse, you're making it sound like it came out 5 days ago and everyone just sat around and did nothing. It came out Friday morning, via Twitter, for something he wanted done immediately. It's amatuer. We had everything in place by 1600 Friday, our "readiness" is not what's an issue here.



It’s called acting on intent.  The intent was clear last night.  No need to wait on a formal order before planning.


----------



## Weinie

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I understand people are frustrated, it's a natural reaction to this and I wouldn't personally hold it against anyone.
> 
> _*I know Ballz and he is a good worker and a smart guy and I know we have all had moments when we are frustrated with something.  I think we all just need to take a step back from what we are personally invested in and look at the bigger picture.*_
> 
> I remember 9/11/2001 and how much of a shock that was and tbh, this feels bigger, way bigger.  The PM is in isolation and his wife is sick FFS, let's not waste our energy insulting each other and getting mad about petty bullshit.
> 
> People are dying and this has the potential to impact many lives in a significant way.  The best thing we can do right now is be kind to one and other and work together to tackle this.
> 
> 
> Apologies for the expletives.





Good advice


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Agreed. Unfortunately it’s rarely that cut and dry.
> 
> In general, several are just blowing much out of proportion. I mostly haven’t stocked up on things more than what I’d normally be prepared for during a standard cold & flu season. (And those of us with kids, especially younger ones, know that they can contract the oddest things on a consistent basis.) I always maintain thoroughly stocked medicine cabinets, toiletry necessities, etc. The person in front of me buying 18 boxes of Kleenex at Shoppers earlier today leaving none for the next person is what’s causing the problem. Who wants to place a wager on how many people will be kind enough to make sizeable food donations to charities when all is said and done because of all the crap they hoarded that they didn’t need? I’m guessing many won’t bother. :



They won't want to but if it gets bad enough, the Government can and will eventually take control of key stockpiles.  

The issue will be if things go on longer than a few weeks.  Systems will need to be created, distribution networks will need to be setup, the Government may need to take control of production of key goods and services, etc.  

Who is the largest organized body of people capable of responding to an event like that?  The CAF of course.


----------



## Baz

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Who is the largest organized body of people capable of responding to an event like that?  The CAF of course.



One of the "lessons learned" (should have been reinforced IMHO) from Katrina/Rita is that the military (and that was 30,000+ US Military) cannot take the place if Walmart, CSX, BNSF, CN, CP, etc, etc.  They can only set the conditions for the people who have massive logistics capability to get back to work.

As I understood NORTHCOM's plan, it was to protect the force so that when the first wave decimated the first responders and essential services, the military got bridge why they recover.   Large civilian logistic organizations are essential.  People don't notice what they do until they don't do it (such as a set of circumstances making everybody believe there is a shortage of TP, and viola, the infrastructure can't keep up with the demand dir TP so there suddenly is).


----------



## OldSolduer

https://images.app.goo.gl/QYXBArRwn13jpStv9

Perhaps this is why people were in a state of unrest over toilet paper


----------



## Weinie

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> They won't want to but if it gets bad enough, the Government can and will eventually take control of key stockpiles.
> 
> *The issue will be if things go on longer than a few weeks.*  Systems will need to be created, distribution networks will need to be setup, the Government may need to take control of production of key goods and services, etc.
> 
> Who is the largest organized body of people capable of responding to an event like that?  The CAF of course.



A pandemic is not a "one time" event and periods of illnesses may come in 2 or 3 "waves" anywhere from 3 to 12 months apart. The total duration of a pandemic is likely to be 12 to 18 months. Some epidemiologists suggest that covid 19 could become the "fifth" annual type of flu, joining the two A subtypes and two B lineages. At anywhere between 2 and 5 times more lethal than extant flu varieties, significant societal upheaval is likely.

I was our departmental lead for H1N1, within about three weeks of the outbreak in Canada I told anyone who asked that I didn't think that we faced a serious problem. With covid 19, my spidey senses have been tingling for about a month now....I pray I am wrong.

Based on recent public reaction, if the event drags out for more than a few months, the government will likely *have* to step in. If this happens, it will be a sad reflection on our resilience as a country, and will diminish our hard-won, 20th century reputation of Canadians being formidable foes, able to collectively rise to any threat or challenge.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> They won't want to but if it gets bad enough, the Government can and will eventually take control of key stockpiles.
> 
> The issue will be if things go on longer than a few weeks.  Systems will need to be created, distribution networks will need to be setup, the Government may need to take control of production of key goods and services, etc.
> 
> Who is the largest organized body of people capable of responding to an event like that?  The CAF of course.



I get that some areas have been affected more so than others. (Speaking strictly within Canada here) But I’m truly failing to see what’s driving certain behaviours amongst the general public, but if I have to, I’m going to blame the media. I shouldn’t be surprised that common sense isn’t prevailing...although perhaps if it did, many of us wouldn’t have a job. 

But seriously, this should not be as big of a shit-show as it’s turning into. The main consensus is still the usual...wash hands frequently with soap and water (sanitizer, while helpful isn’t as effective as plain ole soap), use proper etiquette when coughing/sneezing, stay home when sick...add the specific sequestering of oneself for 2 weeks if you’re exhibiting symptoms.

Is there a certain degree of added cautiousness needed here in order to prevent the spread? Yes. But it’s not, or shouldn’t be, hitting panic proportions. Canada has taken appropriate measures. Look at how far down we are on the list. (Latest WHO chart & stats attached in link) We also have geography on our side, in that our relatively small population is quite spread out in many areas. Ontario has the highest concentration of cases, and in relation to this province’s population, it’s really not that high.



Latest WHO Sitrep

 https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200314-sitrep-54-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=dcd46351_2

The science of soap – here’s how it kills the coronavirus

 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/12/science-soap-kills-coronavirus-alcohol-based-disinfectants


----------



## dapaterson

For those interested: Canadian Pandemic Influenza Preparedness: Planning Guidance for the Health Sector

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/flu-influenza/canadian-pandemic-influenza-preparedness-planning-guidance-health-sector.html


----------



## Jarnhamar

* Passengers from Italy faced no screening*
_Air Canada’s last flight coming in from Italy landed at Montreal’s Trudeau airport Wednesday afternoon. Passengers say that no one was being screened for COVID-19 symptoms upon landing. Melina Giubilaro has more._

https://montreal.citynews.ca/video/2020/03/11/passengers-from-italy-faced-no-screening/


----------



## daftandbarmy

B.C. budget could plunge into deficits amidst economy getting hard hit by COVID-19

The B.C. government is preparing for the possibility of running a deficit budget amidst global economic uncertainty connected to 
COVID-19.

Premier John Horgan says the recent drops in the stock market and drops in expected growth rates will have an impact. The province is currently projecting budget surpluses for the next three years.

“I did not want to form a government just to balance the budget. It was to deliver services for people and I said during the election campaign when those questions came that our objective was to make sure that people had what they needed to prosper and thrive in B.C. and that remains unchanged,” Horgan said.

The B.C. government relies heavily on the tourism industry to keep the economy strong. The industry has been hit hard due to the spread of the coronavirus.

The film industry has been hit in British Columbia with The Flash, Riverdale and other productions shutting down over fears associated with the virus.

“I am not misleading anybody by saying that the activity on the stock market alone has had a profound impact on a whole host of sectors. That will have an impact on revenues going forward,” Horgan said.

“So as we look at where we can find relief for people, whether it be on property taxes for small businesses or a host of other initiatives that we can look at to stimulate or at least take the pressure off, if that means that the budget will be changed then we will do that but at this point, we are going day-by-day.”

Economist Ken Peacock from the Business Council of B.C. says he has never seen such a quick decline in the economy.

Peacock says British Columbia’s economy will be somewhat protected because the province has been effective at testing people for the virus. But B.C. is in no way immune and that will effect almost everyone.

“Weak economic conditions. Widespread implications. Obvious sectors that are going to be hit the hardest are tourism, the airline industry,” Ken Peacock said.

“The impact is going to be huge. Households are going to feel this and people are going to be laid off hopefully what proves to be a temporary impact.”

Peacock says what is still unclear is how long this will go on and what the overall impact will be on the long-term health of the economy.

“The pace and speed of change is unprecedented,” Peacock said.

“The key aspect in trying to determine when we come out of this thing and if we can recover is how how widespread this becomes.”
Dr. Bonnie Henry on ‘essential’ travel and measures announced during coronavirus outbreak 

Many of the hospitality sectors are seeing major loses due to fears of gathering in public.

Zambri’s and Big Wheel Burger co-owner Calen McNeil said they have seen a big drop in group events, which is having an effect on the bottom line.

“We have lost probably $30,000 in the last couple of weeks on private parties.” McNeil said.

“There is a lot of insecurity and people are unsure what to do either because of a lack of information or because of a clear definitive message.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/6676090/b-c-budget-could-plunge-into-deficits-amidst-economy-getting-hard-hit-by-covid-19/


----------



## Eye In The Sky

One of the terms being used...new one to me (and I've been around for a while...).

BCP.  Anyone mind stating what that is, its context?


----------



## Infanteer

Business Continuity Planning.  Its basically the process of determining what do do when an event affects the normal operating procedures of your organization, such as what steps you have to take to ensure critical daily functions can continue to occur with reduced manning, limited access to the usual facilities, or loss of key personnel.


----------



## Weinie

Business Continuity Planning. It basically involves defining what are an organizations "critical services" and who/what is required to deliver them.

Each department across Govt has an L0 BCP, and directs L1's to have a similar plan. CONPLAN LASER (for pandemics) is the equivalent of a CAF BCP


Sorry Infanteer, looks like we both posted at about the same time


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Thank you; I'd googled BCP and came up with that but it seemed like an overly civilian term.


----------



## Weinie

Treasury Board Secretariat designated pan government directive...so yes civilian flavor and intimation


----------



## BeyondTheNow

‘Rest assured, we have plenty of food.’ Ontario shoppers urged to cease panic buying amid the coronavirus outbreak



> The provincial government is urging Ontarians to practise “normal grocery buying habits” as store shelves across the Greater Toronto Area have emptied of supplies — including hand sanitizer, toilet paper, cleaning supplies and drugs — amid panicked buying spurred by the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> As lineups of shoppers with overflowing carts snaked through grocery store aisles — and in at least one case, around a Scarborough Costco building before the doors even opened Saturday — the province reassured Ontarians that the food supply chain is “robust” and the distribution system will continue to operate as normal.
> 
> “Rest assured, we have plenty of food that will continue to reach grocery stores on a regular basis,” read a statement Saturday from Health Minister Christine Elliott and Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs Ernie Hardeman.
> 
> “Please practise normal grocery buying habits.”
> 
> Since the World Health Organization declared the outbreak of COVID-19 — the disease caused by the novel coronavirus — a pandemic, grocery stores have been flooded with customers, prompting retailers to provide reassurance, too, that empty shelves are a result of a heightened surge in demand, not a sudden supply issue.
> 
> “As customers stock up, some items will be sold out. We know the frustration of an empty shelf,” said Galen Weston, executive chairman of Loblaw Companies Limited, noting a team has been assembled to rapidly restock food, health and cleaning items.
> 
> Reams of shoppers have been flocking to grocery stores across the Greater Toronto Area and throughout Canada, a phenomenon widely referred to as “panic buying.” As the Star visited grocery stores around the city Saturday, shoppers could be seen leaving the store with overflowing bags and carts — many clutching multi-packs of toilet paper.
> 
> “I lost the car,” said Avery Sealy as she commandeered a cart overflowing with $500 worth of groceries — cereal, noodles, juice packs, a giant tube of ground beef — scanning the full parking lot at an Etobicoke Costco Saturday morning.



 https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/03/14/rest-assured-we-have-plenty-of-food-ontario-shoppers-urged-to-cease-panic-buying-amid-the-coronavirus-outbreak.html


----------



## brihard

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Thank you; I'd googled BCP and came up with that but it seemed like an overly civilian term.



I'm reading today's dissemination of the GoC COVID-19 response plan at the moment. And yeah, without going into it much, BCP is a step everyone is to have ready to preserve the ability to deliver essential services, depending on department.


----------



## Quirky

Who determines what “essential personnel” is? Is that delegates down to the base COs, unit CO? Seems like some units are stood down for three weeks while some are still continuing as per norm.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest #'s ....


----------



## Jarnhamar

So about 1 out of every 27 who contract it die.


----------



## Infanteer

No, because the denominator (who actually caught it) is unknown.  Some people catch it, don't show symptom, and carry on.  The "number of cases" is only those people who were tested and confirmed as positive.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Adversely is it possible people catch it and die without it being recorded?


----------



## Infanteer

Yes, if people are dying in a place where no follow up is done on a corpse.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> * Passengers from Italy faced no screening*
> _Air Canada’s last flight coming in from Italy landed at Montreal’s Trudeau airport Wednesday afternoon. Passengers say that no one was being screened for COVID-19 symptoms upon landing. Melina Giubilaro has more._
> 
> https://montreal.citynews.ca/video/2020/03/11/passengers-from-italy-faced-no-screening/



This type of info is concerning to me.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Adversely is it possible people catch it and die without it being recorded?



Some, yes, for sure. People (especially old people) die of respiratory distress pretty regularly. China was likely fudging the numbers a lot, chalking it up to influenza or pneumonia. There will probably be less than scrupulous local health authorities looking to fudge the numbers down to avoid panic, or facility directors who don't want facilities shut down (many are businesses, after all). While I don't think this will be a big thing, yeah, there will be COVID deaths that are recorded as something else.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Russia and Africa seem to be fairing pretty well. I wonder if that's environmental or false reporting.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:
			
		

> Who determines what %u201Cessential personnel%u201D is? Is that delegates down to the base COs, unit CO? Seems like some units are stood down for three weeks while some are still continuing as per norm.



It is actually quite an exhaustive process. At the L1 level, determination proscribes what are "critical services or functions" The next step is to figure out who/what allows those services or functions to be delivered = essential personnel. The you have to track back and examine all of the enablers who support essential personnel, to determine if they themselves are essential. L2 and L3 plans basically look at enablers.

At a national Level, say the Army, they would look at all the critical services/roles that the Army provides, and then determine who in the HQ is 
necessary to the continuance of that. Mainly that would be in a sp/reachback role. From a FG persective, Div/Bde/Btn would derive their own plans.

Following a TTX last week, we have stood down entire sections within our org, whilst others have been designated critical pers. The key is a very honest, agnostic look at what is critical as opposed to who _*thinks*_ they are critical


----------



## Drallib

Quirky said:
			
		

> Who determines what “essential personnel” is? Is that delegates down to the base COs, unit CO? Seems like some units are stood down for three weeks while some are still continuing as per norm.



Monday at 0730! (7:30am Air Force time)


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Russia and Africa seem to be fairing pretty well. I wonder if that's environmental or false reporting.



In Africa the average annual income is very low. Not many travel - maybe to the next village. And they may not be able to test - lack of kits?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Drallib said:
			
		

> 7:30am Air Force time



That seems _awfully_ early.  Can we make that 9ish?  Just call it 'crew rest'...








(just injecting some [maybe bad] humour...)


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I don’t know about Quebec ref no screening of the passengers coming from Italy, but Ontario is limiting who’s eligible for testing. Perhaps they assumed passengers will follow the recommendations on the sheet they were given. (If it’s the same one I’ve seen circulating, it advises to isolate oneself if there’s a possibility of exposure regardless if symptoms are immediately present or not.)


 Ontario limits who can be tested for COVID-19 due to demand for nasal swabs



> ... “Testing outside of these recommendations based on public health and clinical judgement can be made in consultation with local public health officials,” the guidance states. “As this goal is for prioritization of those that are at highest risk, this… decision should be made by exception.”...



 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/ontario-limits-who-can-be-tested-for-covid-19-due-to-demand-for-nasal-swabs-1.4853260


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> ... lack of kits?


And it's not just Africa going through that -- following up on Brihard's post ....


> Canada’s most populous province of Ontario, which has reported more than 100 new coronavirus cases, on Saturday said it would limit testing for the respiratory illness until it can guarantee a more steady supply of swabs.
> 
> “There is in an increased global demand for viral nasopharyngeal swabs due to COVID-19,” Public Health Ontario said on its Web site. “In an effort to ensure swabs are available where most needed, the Public Health Laboratory is limiting the volume of swabs supplied.”
> 
> (...)
> 
> Travis Kann, spokesman for Ontario’s minister of health, said the province is prioritizing tests for people who do not have any history of travel since everyone who has been outside the country is expected to self-isolate upon return.
> 
> “We expect to expand the testing once we’re confident in stable supply, and so we’re working, obviously, with our manufacturing and supply chain partners,” he said. “It’s our hope that we procure them as quickly as possible.”  ...


More details from London's Medical Officer of Health on this attached (source).


----------



## Eye In The Sky

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I don’t know about Quebec ref no screening of the passengers coming from Italy, but Ontario is limiting who’s eligible for testing. Perhaps they assumed passengers will follow the recommendations on the sheet they were given. (If it’s the same one I’ve seen circulating, it advises to isolate oneself if there’s a possibility of exposure regardless if symptoms are immediately present or not.)
> 
> 
> Ontario limits who can be tested for COVID-19 due to demand for nasal swabs
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/ontario-limits-who-can-be-tested-for-covid-19-due-to-demand-for-nasal-swabs-1.4853260



I've read some things today that indicate similar eligibility for testing in Alberta as well.  Unfortunately, it makes some sense when there is a limited supply of test kits and the fact we are very early on in this pandemic.  Conversely, that means some people who are infected may not be tested.  

There was a story released earlier today about a 40 year old woman in Japan who is on her second diagnosis.   Japan confirms first case of person re-infected with coronavirus


----------



## BeyondTheNow

A slightly different side here showing Italy’s efforts to support the people and how others are coping....lighten the mood a bit. (Although if many are quarantined, I’m not sure where this was and who could view the show. I haven’t dug deeper to confirm specifics, but nice clip nonetheless.)

 https://www.instagram.com/tv/B9udCkHFn3j/?igshid=nvde68d5xk1y

There are also several videos surfacing, especially from Naples, featuring some isolated individuals serenading each other from their balconies.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I've read some things today that indicate similar eligibility for testing in Alberta as well.  Unfortunately, it makes some sense when there is a limited supply of test kits and the fact we are very early on in this pandemic.  Conversely, that means some people who are infected may not be tested.
> 
> There was a story released earlier today about a 40 year old woman in Japan who is on her second diagnosis.   Japan confirms first case of person re-infected with coronavirus



Yes. 

I wish the media would focus more on those who are sharing their accounts of getting over the illness. There aren’t many circulating (because, well, good news and all doesn’t sell as many stories and the majority of journalists/reporters aren’t interested in seeking those persons out), but there are some out there and I bet there’s more. There also needs to be increased focus on those not being affected by the virus and why. (Children are in very low percentages overall, surprisingly.) As this is a new strain of that family of viruses, little is known at the moment. But anything at all to reduce the levels of heightened concern could help ease minds.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I've read some things today that indicate similar eligibility for testing in Alberta as well.  Unfortunately, it makes some sense when there is a limited supply of test kits and the fact we are very early on in this pandemic.  Conversely, that means some people who are infected may not be tested.
> 
> There was a story released earlier today about a 40 year old woman in Japan who is on her second diagnosis.   Japan confirms first case of person re-infected with coronavirus



They are now thinking the virus stays in the body longer than thought, it may be possible that she was never actually completely cleared of the virus and it popped out of a "reservoir" where it can hide from the auto-immune system and drugs.


----------



## Weinie

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I've read some things today that indicate similar eligibility for testing in Alberta as well.  Unfortunately, it makes some sense when there is a limited supply of test kits and the fact we are very early on in this pandemic.  Conversely, that means some people who are infected may not be tested.
> 
> _*There was a story released earlier today about a 40 year old woman in Japan who is on her second diagnosis.*_   Japan confirms first case of person re-infected with coronavirus



Or it could be a (troubling) affirmation of something that I posted earlier today; to wit

 Some epidemiologists suggest that covid 19 could become the "fifth" annual type of flu, joining the two A subtypes and two B lineages.


----------



## tomahawk6

Ask the US for test kits or make your own domestically.


----------



## Infanteer

Weinie said:
			
		

> Or it could be a (troubling) affirmation of something that I posted earlier today; to wit
> 
> Some epidemiologists suggest that covid 19 could become the "fifth" annual type of flu, joining the two A subtypes and two B lineages.



I though COVID-19, as a corona virus, wasn't a form of influenza?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I though COVID-19, as a corona virus, wasn't a form of influenza?



It’s not, as I understand it.



> Former CDC director: Covid-19 is different from flu and we must respond differently



 https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-covid-19-flu-comparison-frieden-analysis/index.html

Although, sometimes there’s this?



> ...If you are sneezing, or have a stuffy or runny nose, the good news is that you probably just have a garden-variety common cold -- ironically, one possibly caused by a different coronavirus...


----------



## FJAG

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Ask the US for test kits or make your own domestically.



The US doesn't have any to spare. You've got a much greater shortage than Canada. The governor of Florida gave a briefing yesterday saying they had 1,000 test kits (each one does 250 tests) and are expecting another 1,500. He also said that not only did Florida have more test kits then any other state but more than all the other states combined. -- Republican governors don't lie. Besides, Trump has already blamed Obama for the shortage ;D

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/trump-blames-obama-decision-for-coronavirus-test-kit-shortage

 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:
			
		

> The US doesn't have any to spare. You've got a much greater shortage than Canada. The governor of Florida gave a briefing yesterday saying they had 1,000 test kits (each one does 250 tests) and are expecting another 1,500. He also said that not only did Florida have more test kits then any other state but more than all the other states combined. -- Republican governors don't lie. Besides, Trump has already blamed Obama for the shortage ;D
> 
> https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/trump-blames-obama-decision-for-coronavirus-test-kit-shortage
> 
> :cheers:



The same guy who fired the White House's pandemic preparedness team in 2018? Classic.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Did he directly order them fired/terminated/redundant , or a result of budget cuts?


----------



## brihard

Colin P said:
			
		

> Did he directly order them fired/terminated/redundant , or a result of budget cuts?



Like most things, it was part of delegated authority to Bolton, a direct Trump appointee, but he still wears it. He's quick to take credit for things that look good. As the senior executive, he is accountable what what happens on his watch at levels visible to him. He sure as hell did nothing to correct it after it broke broadly in the news.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/05/10/top-white-house-official-in-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:
			
		

> Following a TTX last week, we have stood down entire sections within our org, whilst others have been designated critical pers. The key is a very honest, agnostic look at what is critical as opposed to who _*thinks*_ they are critical



So clerks and drivers are good, Captains 10 not so much?


----------



## ballz

Infanteer said:
			
		

> How should things have happened?



If I assume this had to be complete by EOP Friday, I have no major issues with how it transpired, nor have I indicated any. I would not have even brought up the CDS tweet as its small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, but for the patting on the back he was getting which is not congruent with how the mid-level leadership (both in rank and hierarchy) I work with feel about it. All he had to do was give us a pittance of time to sort it out before going and adding to the confusion with his Tweet. He could have waited until EOP Friday at the very least. For some reason that criticism offends you, and yes I chalk that up being too indoctrinated. If you expect less than a visceral reaction when telling someone they don't know s**t about what they are talking about, well, I don't know what to tell you.

That said, I don't think that assumption is correct, which is a bigger criticism to this whole thing and actually worth talking about. This is a pretty big flinch. No one got to go home until the end of the day on Friday anyway, so a slower, more deliberate approach would have meant a lot more questions and answers could have been done and over with and instead of flying off the seat of our pants, by the time the troops came to work on Monday we could have 25x more solid direction for them (both quantity and quality) and send them home immediately. It would have given us an extra 48-72 hours worth of battle procedure and the increased risk to the force would be pretty damn negligible since it only would be critical pers working over the weekend.

Anyway, the conversation appears to have moved on.


----------



## CBH99

OMG guys...

You remember when we all almost died from SARS!!??  It was so horrible!!  It was...oh...wait... sorry.  

Wrong thing to be afraid of...

What was I thinking about again?



MERS!  That's it!!  20% of the world's population is gonna f**king DIE because of MERS!!  Remember how horrible it was, when 1/5th of our population dropped dead from it?

Oh...wait...sorry.  Crap.  I know I'm thinking of something worth being scared of...



Got it.  Sorry.

Mad Cow Disease!!

No?



Swine Flu!  That's it.  Swine Flu.  That was that super horrible mutation that wiped us all out... whew.  Can't believe I forgot which one it was, I mean it was like The Walking Dead for years once that hit us...

Oh, no?  Crap.  Sorry again.


H1N1?  No?  Sorry.

Ebola?  No again?  Hmmmmmmm...



I'm sure this one is gonna be it though.  Horrible.  Absolutely horrible.  

I mean it must be, right?  Entire countries on lockdown, international travel is cancelled, schools, social gatherings, etc etc is all cancelled.  This must be super serious.  The NHL & NBA cancelled their entire season, because if someone coughs & doesn't cover their mouth, the entire stadium might f**king die...  (In 8 weeks or so, ofcourse, not right away.  Once people get the common cold, which is actually already a form of corona virus, but...logic isn't part of this conversation, no place for it when we're all on our way out...)  Truly worth putting tens of thousands of people out of work - I mean, to say society is over reacting would just be foolish...

I mean, let's be truly empathetic here ladies & gents.  Could you imagine how awful it's going to be when you MAY present symptoms of the common cold, 2 to 8 weeks from now?  My goodness.  How did our society get this far?


I pray for all of you.  God Bless, truly.

(Quick sidenote, I'm selling toilet paper for $100 a roll, but only $50 a roll to Army.ca members, because I genuinely love you all so much.  Sharing is caring.)


----------



## Sub_Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Russia and Africa seem to be fairing pretty well. I wonder if that's environmental or false reporting.



Russia was heavily criticized for the way they handled it in the early stages.  Some cases are starting to trickle in over there now though.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/03/06/why-are-there-so-few-reported-covid-19-cases-in-russia


----------



## Ralph

CBH99 said:
			
		

> OMG guys...
> 
> You remember when we all almost died from SARS!!??  It was so horrible!!  It was...oh...wait... sorry.
> 
> Wrong thing to be afraid of...
> 
> What was I thinking about again?
> 
> (Quick sidenote, I'm selling toilet paper for $100 a roll, but only $50 a roll to Army.ca members, because I genuinely love you all so much.  Sharing is caring.)



I think you're missing the point...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Russia was heavily criticized for the way they handled it in the early stages.  Some cases are starting to trickle in over there now though.
> 
> https://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/03/06/why-are-there-so-few-reported-covid-19-cases-in-russia


4200km border with China and 59 reported cases so far?  I'd lean into Hypothesis 5 from the article:  _"The number of coronavirus cases recorded in Russia is a vast underestimation, but most patients haven’t needed medical help"_, especially given how big the country is.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Coronavirus: 10 reasons why you ought not to panic



> Regardless of whether we classify the new coronavirus as a pandemic, it is a serious issue. In less than two months, it has spread over several continents. Pandemic means sustained and continuous transmission of the disease, simultaneously in more than three different geographical regions. Pandemic does not refer to the lethality of a virus but to its transmissibility and geographical extension.
> 
> What we certainly have is a pandemic of fear. The entire planet’s media is gripped by coronavirus. It is right that there is deep concern and mass planning for worst-case scenarios. And, of course, the repercussions move from the global health sphere into business and politics.
> 
> But it is also right that we must not panic. It would be wrong to say there is good news coming out of COVID-19, but there are causes for optimism; reasons to think there may be ways to contain and defeat the virus. And lessons to learn for the future.
> 
> 1. We know what it is
> 
> The first cases of AIDS were described in June 1981 and it took more than two years to identify the virus (HIV) causing the disease. With COVID-19, the first cases of severe pneumonia were reported in China on December 31, 2019 and by January 7 the virus had already been identified. The genome was available on day 10.
> 
> We already know that it is a new coronavirus from group 2B, of the same family as SARS, which we have called SARSCoV2. The disease is called COVID-19. It is thought to be related to coronavirus from bats. Genetic analyses have confirmed it has a recent natural origin (between the end of November and the beginning of December) and that, although viruses live by mutating, its mutation rate may not be very high.
> 
> 2. We know how to detect the virus
> 
> Since January 13, a test to detect the virus has been available.
> 
> 3. The situation is improving in China
> 
> The strong control and isolation measures imposed by China are paying off. For several weeks now, the number of cases diagnosed every day is decreasing. A very detailed epidemiological follow-up is being carried out in other countries; outbreaks are very specific to areas, which can allow them to be controlled more easily.
> 
> 4. 80% of cases are mild
> 
> The disease causes no symptoms or is mild in 81% of cases. Of course, in 14% it can cause severe pneumonia and in 5% it can become critical or even fatal. It is still unclear what the death rate may be. But it could be lower than some estimates so far.
> 
> 5. People recover
> 
> Much of the reported data relates to the increase in the number of confirmed cases and the number of deaths, but most infected people are cured. There are 13 times more cured cases than deaths, and that proportion is increasing.
> 
> 6. Symptoms appear mild in children
> 
> Only 3% of cases occur in people under 20, and mortality under 40 is only 0.2%. Symptoms are so mild in children it can go unnoticed.
> 
> 7. The virus can be wiped clean
> 
> The virus can be effectively inactivated from surfaces with a solution of ethanol (62-71% alcohol), hydrogen peroxide (0.5% hydrogen peroxide) or sodium hypochlorite (0.1% bleach), in just one minute. Frequent handwashing with soap and water is the most effective way to avoid contagion.
> 
> 8. Science is on it, globally
> 
> It is the age of international science cooperation. After just over a month, 164 articles could be accessed in PubMed on COVID19 or SARSCov2, as well as many others available in repositories of articles not yet reviewed. They are preliminary works on vaccines, treatments, epidemiology, genetics and phylogeny, diagnosis, clinical aspects, etc.
> 
> These articles were written by some 700 authors, distributed throughout the planet. It is cooperative science, shared and open. In 2003, with the SARS epidemic, it took more than a year to reach less than half that number of articles. In addition, most scientific journals have left their publications as open access on the subject of coronaviruses.
> 
> 9. There are already vaccine prototypes
> 
> Our ability to design new vaccines is spectacular. There are already more than eight projects underway seeking a vaccine against the new coronavirus. There are groups that work on vaccination projects against similar viruses.
> 
> The vaccine group of the University of Queensland, in Australia, has announced it is already working on a prototype using the technique called “molecular clamp”, a novel technology. This is just one example that could allow vaccine production in record time. Prototypes may soon be tested on humans.
> 
> 10. Antiviral trials are underway
> 
> Vaccines are preventive. Right now, the treatment of people who are already sick is important. There are already more than 80 clinical trials analysing coronavirus treatments. These are antivirals that have been used for other infections, which are already approved and that we know are safe.
> 
> One of those that has already been tested in humans is remdesivir, a broad-spectrum antiviral still under study, which has been tested against Ebola and SARS/MERS.
> 
> Another candidate is chloroquine, an antimalarial that has also been seen to have potent antiviral activity. It is known that chloroquine blocks viral infection by increasing the pH of the endosome, which is needed for the fusion of the virus with the cell, thus inhibiting its entry. It has been demonstrated that this compound blocks the new coronavirus in vitro and it is already being used in patients with coronavirus pneumonia.
> 
> Other proposed trials are based on the use of oseltamivir (which is used against the influenza virus), interferon-1b (protein with antiviral function), antisera from people who recovered or monoclonal antibodies to neutralise the virus. New therapies have been proposed with inhibitory substances, such as baricitinibine, selected by artificial intelligence.
> 
> The 1918 flu pandemic caused more than 25 million deaths in less than 25 weeks. Could something similar happen now? Probably not; we have never been better prepared to fight a pandemic.



 https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-ten-reasons-why-you-ought-not-to-panic-132941


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> OMG guys...
> 
> You remember when we all almost died from SARS!!??  It was so horrible!!  It was...oh...wait... sorry.



Glad you think it was a joke. It was the worst time of my life.


----------



## daftandbarmy

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Coronavirus: 10 reasons why you ought not to panic
> 
> https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-ten-reasons-why-you-ought-not-to-panic-132941



'Don't panic' and 'always know where your towel is' in other words?


Arthur C. Clarke said Douglas Adams' use of "don't panic" was perhaps the best advice that could be given to humanity. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:
			
		

> OMG guys...
> 
> You remember when we all almost died from SARS!!??  It was so horrible!!  It was...oh...wait... sorry.
> 
> Wrong thing to be afraid of...
> 
> What was I thinking about again?
> 
> 
> 
> MERS!  That's it!!  20% of the world's population is gonna f**king DIE because of MERS!!  Remember how horrible it was, when 1/5th of our population dropped dead from it?
> 
> Oh...wait...sorry.  Crap.  I know I'm thinking of something worth being scared of...
> 
> 
> 
> Got it.  Sorry.
> 
> Mad Cow Disease!!
> 
> No?
> 
> 
> 
> Swine Flu!  That's it.  Swine Flu.  That was that super horrible mutation that wiped us all out... whew.  Can't believe I forgot which one it was, I mean it was like The Walking Dead for years once that hit us...
> 
> Oh, no?  Crap.  Sorry again.
> 
> 
> H1N1?  No?  Sorry.
> 
> Ebola?  No again?  Hmmmmmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure this one is gonna be it though.  Horrible.  Absolutely horrible.
> 
> I mean it must be, right?  Entire countries on lockdown, international travel is cancelled, schools, social gatherings, etc etc is all cancelled.  This must be super serious.  The NHL & NBA cancelled their entire season, because if someone coughs & doesn't cover their mouth, the entire stadium might f**king die...  (In 8 weeks or so, ofcourse, not right away.  Once people get the common cold, which is actually already a form of corona virus, but...logic isn't part of this conversation, no place for it when we're all on our way out...)  Truly worth putting tens of thousands of people out of work - I mean, to say society is over reacting would just be foolish...
> 
> I mean, let's be truly empathetic here ladies & gents.  Could you imagine how awful it's going to be when you MAY present symptoms of the common cold, 2 to 8 weeks from now?  My goodness.  How did our society get this far?
> 
> 
> I pray for all of you.  God Bless, truly.
> 
> (Quick sidenote, I'm selling toilet paper for $100 a roll, but only $50 a roll to Army.ca members, because I genuinely love you all so much.  Sharing is caring.)



I'm happy for you that you have no elderly or medically vulnerable people in your family or circle of friends that you're worried about. Good for you.

Meanwhile any medical professional I speak to our read articles by - particularly those working in the intensive care system - are pleading with people to flatten the curve on this so they can have a chance at keeping up. Canada is currently seeing exponential growth in _identified_ cases of 20-33% daily. We're presently where Italy was on February 24th, with approximately the same exponential growth rate. Perhaps doctors in Italy choosing who will receive care and who will die is too geographcially distant for you to grasp, and that's fine.  But Canada, at current growth rates, is maybe 12-14 days from ICUs being overwhelmed. With a lot of luck, the social distancing some (not nearly enoguh) Canadians are practicing may limit transmission... But with how long it takes to become symptomatic,w e won't know for at least a week. Best case we have slowed the rate of growth, but the government is already beyond the 'Containment' phase, well into 'delay and prepare', and close to moving to phase 3, 'mitigate'. We have a bunch of people coming back from March Break over the coming week. We have Canadians flooding back from parts of the world that are affected due to the travel advisories, crowded together at the airports. This is not contained or containable.

This is not SARS. SARS was limited to the GTA. SARS was contained fast with just a few thousand cases globally, though the 375 cases in Toronto killed 44 people. Mariomike was 'on the front' for that and can tell you more than I can, but he seems to suggest it sucked. We lucked in containing SARS when we did, but even limited as it was, it strained the medical system in Toronto. They ran out of negative pressure rooms, though ICUs kept up.

This is not MERS. MERS has never had sustained spread in a population, and there have only been a couple thousand identified cases over 7 or 8 years.

This is not swine flu, H1N1, CJD, or Ebola. Each of those are their own distinct pathogen. Ebola is too deadly and too fragile- it progresses too quickly, burns itself out generally pretty fast, and scares populations and government enough for extremely fast and decisive action. Influenza is more endemic in the population but has a much lower death rate and rate of critical illness than COVID-19. CJD is a prion disease not transmitted between humans.

COVID-19 seems to have hit a 'sweet spot'. Long incubation period, high transmissibility, an increasingly apparent likelihood of asymptomatic infectiousness asymptomatic infectiousness, and it managed to break containment and go global. And it seems to kill 1-2% of the identified cases in intact healthcare systems, substantially more when systems overload and break down.

Your blasé attitude towards this is wilfully ignorant. There is no excuse at this stage to not be more informed and more aware of the significant risks our healthcare system faces. I'm not worried about dying of this. You probably shouldn't be. Many members of this board needn't be- but offhand I can think of a few of our members who are immune compromised, elderly, or otherwise medically vulnerable to this. Almost all of us (the rest of us besides you I guess) have friends or family who fall square in the 'at risk' population. Some of us work in front line capacities where this will be our problem if and when it gets really bad. We collectively have a social responsibility to take this serious and to try to protect our critical care health system from a 'Lombardy' scenario.

In an ideal case, this will taper off and our system will be able to handle it. If that happens it won't be because all the exhortations to extreme caution were wrong' it will be because they worked. We need only look to Europe to see the potential consequences if it doesn't.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Very responsible of them....

Isis issues coronavirus travel advice: terrorists should avoid Europe

The Isis terrorist group is steering clear of Europe because of the coronavirus. Having previously urged its supporters to attack European cities, the group is now advising members to “stay away from the land of the epidemic” in case they become infected.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/isis-issues-coronavirus-travel-advice-terrorists-should-avoid-europe-5m89dvjjw?fbclid=IwAR3IxLxylOhV87tTRNonfHJd04rlx_kO_gE87uGyz_iMheUqzCLH86dREkI


----------



## PuckChaser

Folks, if you have a decent gaming desktop or laptop at home and can spare a few cents of electricity overnight, consider downloading Folding@Home https://foldingathome.org/2020/03/10/covid19-update/

As a quick BLUF: Folding@Home uses your GPU (graphics card) to process information using millions of PCs around the world like a distributed super computer. It's been around for over 20 years and is built open-source so you don't have to worry about security issues. Download the software, and hit start. Select "Any Disease" which right now is set for COVID-19.

If there's enough interest here, I can set us up a Milnet.ca team and we can challenge each other for results.


----------



## CBH99

Fair enough guys - I do apologize for being so quip about the situation.  Sincerely.

You are right, we all have (mostly) elderly family members who would fall squarely into the 'at risk' category.  You are right & I do apologize for being so quip & arrogant towards the matter.


I guess I just get tired of how absurd I feel the fear & panic has become.  Reasons to be cautious?  Absolutely.  Reasons to take preventative measures?  Indeed.

All I've heard about for the last few weeks is how deadly this virus is, and seen how people are stocking up at the grocery stores.  No soup, no milk, no toilet paper, no cleaning supplies, etc etc.  


I tend to listen to a LOT of science shows during my nights, and lately there have been quite a few virologists on Joe Rogan, among many others.  I find there to be a notable difference in what the mainstream media portrays to the public, and what can be learned when one listens to people who really know their stuff.


I was more sarcastically poking fun at the mainstream media & the fear mongering they've managed to achieve than the actual virus or the situation...hence my references to Ebola, H1N1, etc etc.  The situation itself, and the deaths caused thus far, aren't funny at all.  I was more frustrated/making fun of how absurd the media/hoarders have been.  



**On a more serious note, I do apologize.  Obviously it's difficult to portray sarcasm via messages on a board.  In my own head, when I was writing it, I felt it was obvious I was poking fun at the media fear mongering.... now that I've woken up and re-read my post, it didn't come across that way.  I own it -- poorly written & came across as in poor taste.**

(Someone above mentioned that perhaps the media could seek out people who have had the virus & had little in the way of serious symptoms.  I feel like if they put more effort into that, and less effort into the 'worst case scenario' hype, people wouldn't be hoarding up & preparing for the apocalypse.)


----------



## Journeyman

Now imagine if this is followed by a diarrhea-causing virus and the same toilet paper hoarders cause a run on nasal spray!  rly:


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Fair enough guys - I do apologize for being so quip about the situation.  Sincerely.



I apologise to you, too. I had no cause to react like that.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:
			
		

> I apologise to you, too. I had no cause to react like that.



I swear you're one of the most polite people I've ever ran into on any message board, Mike.  I joke about a situation that caused dozens of deaths, that you lived & worked through, and yet here you are apologizing to me...  couldn't be more Canadian   

No need to apologize for anything at all.  100% poor taste on my end.


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Fair enough guys - I do apologize for being so quip about the situation.  Sincerely.



Sorry for jumping on you dude, I'm a bit twitchy over this.


----------



## Quirky

Brihard said:
			
		

> Your blasé attitude towards this is wilfully ignorant. There is no excuse at this stage to not be more informed and more aware of the significant risks our healthcare system faces.



South Korea has drive through testing and get texted the results the following day, while Canadians are waiting days to a week+ only for severe cases. At least this will help open people's eyes to all the severe lacks of quality and availability in our supposed "free" healthcare utopia everyone thinks is so great.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> South Korea has drive through testing and get texted the results the following day, while Canadians are waiting days to a week+ only for severe cases. At least this will help open people's eyes to all the severe lacks of quality and availability in our supposed "free" healthcare utopia everyone thinks is so great.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social



Yes.

We had a drive-through set up also...forget exactly where and can’t find the article atm. But it has been suspended for the time being so med staff can catch up on the samples taken. 

SK has an extensive, efficient and inexpensive health care system complete with (rarely any sort of shortage of) Dr.s, techs, etc. They are a very, very small country with a population of 50+ million people living in packed approximation to each other as a substantial chunk of their terrain can’t be built upon/populated. We’ve attempted, and afaik will be attempting again, to have drive throughs. But what I’m getting is we haven’t the consistent resources to sustain the demand and produce test results within reasonable time frames.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Quirky said:
			
		

> South Korea has drive through testing and get texted the results the following day, while Canadians are waiting days to a week+ only for severe cases. At least this will help open people's eyes to all the severe lacks of quality and availability in our supposed "free" healthcare utopia everyone thinks is so great.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social



CBSA getting criticized now for not doing enough to screen people at Pearson:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/pearson-airport-screening-1.5497327

It's the weekend in the Government, sounds like a Monday  problem  rly:


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> South Korea has drive through testing and get texted the results the following day, while Canadians are waiting days to a week+ only for severe cases. At least this will help open people's eyes to all the severe lacks of quality and availability in our supposed "free" healthcare utopia everyone thinks is so great.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/13/815441078/south-koreas-drive-through-testing-for-coronavirus-is-fast-and-free?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social



Meanwhile testing in America is either brutally haphazard, or nonexistent.

I would not take testing for a novel virus as particularly indicative of the state of the healthcare system as a whole.

South Korea’s medical care is free at the point of care, by the way. So maybe they just do our approach better.


----------



## Kirkhill

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> It’s not, as I understand it.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/health/coronavirus-covid-19-flu-comparison-frieden-analysis/index.html
> 
> Although, sometimes there’s this?



Which begs the question:

How successful have we been in managing/preventing/curing the common cold?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold



> FYI: Some common colds are actually a type of coronavirus.
> Yep, you read that right: Common human coronaviruses—not to be confused with the novel coronavirus, or SARS-CoV-2, currently circulating—can cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold, per the CDC. In fact, the majority of people will get infected with one or more of these viruses at some point in their lives—according to Marie-Louise Landry, MD, an infectious disease expert at Yale Medicine and the director of the Yale Clinical Virology Laboratory, four common human coronaviruses cause 15-30% of common colds. (Most often, however, the common cold is caused by a rhinoviruses, per the CDC). Their peak season is also winter—aka, the same time as influenza.
> 
> However, what we are dealing with currently is a new or novel coronavirus, “meaning that it mutated in some way and became more deadly,” explains Jeremy Brown, MD, director of the Office of Emergency Care Research at the National Institutes of Health and author of Influenza: The Hundred-Year Hunt to Cure the Deadliest Disease in History. “That is what happened when SARS and MERS occurred. They too are coronaviruses, that changed and became very much more deadly."



https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-symptoms-vs-cold

And viruses constantly mutate - in part it is built into them.  It is why we constantly have to get flu boosters every year to deal with last year's threat.

Viruses existed before this outbreak.  They will survive the outbreak.  They will change, adapt and modify.  And so, as a species, will we.

I offer you John Knox's sign off.   Chris Pook, with his one foot in the grave. 

And for my Hoosier buddies, "And there ain't nothing I can do about it".

Best of luck.


----------



## Quirky

Brihard said:
			
		

> Meanwhile testing in America is either brutally haphazard, or nonexistent.



They are utterly screwed. With the amount of smokers and obese people with diabetes in that country coupled with a heathcare system that is on the verge of falling off a cliff, I wouldn't be surprised to see more deaths in the US than China. 



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> CBSA getting criticized now for not doing enough to screen people at Pearson:



I don't think they are qualified beyond asking a few questions to access medical conditions, I don't know what people want. It's like posting commissionaires at base entrances that can barely stay awake at 7am asking if you have a cold.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> Sorry for jumping on you dude, I'm a bit twitchy over this.



Dark humour will always pop up.  At the office the last week the DG and I walked by cubicle that was completely sealed in plastic and taped up with a hazard sign.  It was clearly fake and meant as a joke by some co workers who were likely poking fun.  But, we had a few people who didn’t know better and were a little shaken up by that joke.  I thought it was funny, but I also understood that the current climate means that it wouldn’t be too funny for some that are legit worried about this. 

I worry for my parents who are over 70.  I worry for my friends with medical conditions and I worry for people I know that are not yet back in Canada.  I’m not panicking but I have never seen anything like this.  My wife was in the middle of the whole Ebola planning and preparation with HC.  This is way different.  As bad a SARS was, I don’t remember the kinds of shut downs world wide this is causing.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> They are utterly screwed. With the amount of smokers and obese people with diabetes in that country coupled with a heathcare system that is on the verge of falling off a cliff, I wouldn't be surprised to see more deaths in the US than China.



Actually China has a huge smoking and diabetes issue which probably what contributed to the higher death toll.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Quirky said:
			
		

> They are utterly screwed. With the amount of smokers and obese people with diabetes in that country coupled with a heathcare system that is on the verge of falling off a cliff, I wouldn't be surprised to see more deaths in the US than China.
> 
> I don't think they are qualified beyond asking a few questions to access medical conditions, I don't know what people want. It's like posting commissionaires at base entrances that can barely stay awake at 7am asking if you have a cold.



I agree and I have heard that having people in masks taking people's temperatures is more about optics then actual screening but they apparently weren't even asking questions to people.


----------



## brihard

39 new cases in Ontario overnight. That’s a 40% increase. We get figures at 1030 and 1730 daily. Lots of spread in Toronto and the Toronto region. Ottawa doubled from 5 to 10. More cases in outlying areas now. 

https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus

I have it on good authority that at least one positive case was borderline asymptomatic, no fever, coughing.

Ontario has a strategic reserve of 216 ventilators beyond normal hospital capacity. With a third of our population, I figure we have maybe 1600 in normal use. So that stockpile maybe doubles our ‘spare’ capacity. 8000 cases will probably put us into ventilator triage.

Nova Scotia has presumptive cases now, so only the northern territories are still maybe clear. 

11 new cases in Quebec. From 24-35. 45% day over day.

Alberta and British Columbia release numbers late in the day. We’ll blow through 300 today easily.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:
			
		

> I worry for my parents who are over 70.  I worry for my friends with medical conditions and I worry for people I know that are not yet back in Canada.  I’m not panicking but I have never seen anything like this.  My wife was in the middle of the whole Ebola planning and preparation with HC.  This is way different.  As bad a SARS was, I don’t remember the kinds of shut downs world wide this is causing.



At some point we all have to realise that death is inevitable and panicking over something that kills someone 10 years earlier isn't good for society as a whole. My parents are close to that age along with other family members. Beyond telling them to take the necessary precautions there really isn't much anyone can do. Life expectancy has ballooned in society. My dad should have died over 10 years ago because of cancer but because of medical advancements they gave him more time, but inevitably his time will run out, as will yours, as will mine. We definitely need to take precautions to stop the spread, but living in fear because of a virus that, in majority of cases, kills the oldest and most unhealthy to begin with is ridiculous. If anything, I hope this is a wake up call to the people who live unhealthy lifestyles that don't take care of themselves. 



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I agree and I have heard that having people in masks taking people's temperatures is more about optics then actual screening but they apparently weren't even asking questions to people.



People are trustworthy and will self-isolate. Right?  :rofl:


----------



## Kirkhill

> Is this coronavirus different from SARS?
> 
> SARS stands for severe acute respiratory syndrome. In 2003, an outbreak of SARS started in China and spread to other countries before ending in 2004. The virus that causes COVID-19 is similar to the one that caused the 2003 SARS outbreak: both are types of coronaviruses. Much is still unknown, but COVID-19 seems to spread faster than the 2003 SARS and also may cause less severe illness.



https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus

I could argue that CoVID-19 is an example of a virus evolving to become more successful as a parasite.  An ideal parasite is one that the host doesn't notice, permitting the parasite to feed and reproduce while the host feeds and reproduces.

Pre SARS and MERS coronaviruses had limited access to one of the fastest growing gene pools on the planet.  They only infected 10 to 15% of the available population and then only when the population was sufficiently weakened so that they couldn't generate anti-bodies fast enough.

SARS was a breakout period.  The mutated SARS coronavirus spread quickly, generated symptoms early, assisting in making it easier to counter and it was fatal to the host in a high percentage of cases.  As a virus it was less than successful.  As a prototype it was promising.

MERS, I suggest, was a Beta model of the SARS prototype, a randomly generated Beta model at that.  It was less successful as a parasite.  It was more lethal to the host and spread slower.  It too was contained.

CoVID-19 appears to me to be another modified prototype, also randomly generated, but which is successful because, unlike MERS and SARS, it is "doing the other thing".  It has a longish, asymptomatic incubation period, it doesn't stress a large percentage of the host population which recovers (especially true of the young which offer a long lived support system to the virus) and it remains contagious long after the host has quelled any symptoms and accommodated the invasion by the new parasite.

Ideally, from the parasite's point of view, in a few years it will be as successful as its rhinovirus relatives and be as ubiquitous as the common cold.

We're not going to get rid of this thing. We, as a herd, will manage it.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

It's astonishing that this POS actually went crying to the media thinking he's some sort of victim:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/technology/coronavirus-purell-wipes-amazon-sellers.html


----------



## Eye In The Sky

For some education/awareness, I decided to watch the docuseries Pandemic on Netflix.  Don't be mislead by the short-worded series description, it investigates more than just influenza.  

There have been people working 'this type' of situation for years, and risking their lives and health while doing so.  Hats off to all the care professionals wading thru and working in the high-risk areas all over the world trying to prevent, and treat, these illnesses.  Some of those folks are represented right here on our forum;    to you, MarioMike.  

Also saw a post earlier this morning with a 'hats off' message to the folks in our national/global transport industries, who will be the ones going from location to location replacing all the panic toilet paper purchases, etc and might not have the option to 'remain home for a minimum of 3 weeks'.


----------



## mariomike

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Some of those folks are represented right here on our forum;    to you, MarioMike.



Thank-you, EITS. But, I know there are many here who went through a lot more on military operations than I ever did on civvy-side.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> For some education/awareness, I decided to watch the docuseries Pandemic on Netflix.  Don't be mislead by the short-worded series description, it investigates more than just influenza.
> 
> There have been people working 'this type' of situation for years, and risking their lives and health while doing so.  Hats off to all the care professionals wading thru and working in the high-risk areas all over the world trying to prevent, and treat, these illnesses.  Some of those folks are represented right here on our forum;    to you, MarioMike.
> 
> Also saw a post earlier this morning with a 'hats off' message to the folks in our national/global transport industries, who will be the ones going from location to location replacing all the panic toilet paper purchases, etc and might not have the option to 'remain home for a minimum of 3 weeks'.




We were talking a lot about this at work when the school strikes began—That we’re super-fortunate to be in the position we’re in. Many of us have a lot of flexibility, options when time off is needed, and we get paid regardless. I worked several jobs in my younger years before being salaried, having benefits, etc. If I was in the same position now, working for an hrly wage with limited or no benefits, as many are, I’d be hard-pressed to figure out what to do with our schools being closed until April and reading everywhere about staying home as to avoid becoming ill/spreading illness. The majority simply don’t have that option.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Quirky]

I don't think they are qualified beyond asking a few questions to access medical conditions, I don't know what people want. It's like posting commissionaires at base entrances that can barely stay awake at 7am asking if you have a cold.
[/quote]

Ever see the security at DHTC?  We have shitty big-base security because we don't take base security seriously.  Same with border crossings and situations like this. There's no reason why we shouldn't have been prepared or have a plan in place.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ever see the security at DHTC?  We have shitty big-base security because we don't take base security seriously.  Same with border crossings and situations like this. There's no reason why we shouldn't have been prepared or have a plan in place.



What would a good plan look like? Does anyone know?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What would a good plan look like? Does anyone know?



Who knows, security requires a credible threat.  It also usually only gets put in place after something actually happens.

It will take a major incident for any organization in this country to change its actual posture.  The biggest issue for most CAF establishments is Access Control or lack thereof.  Most bases were built many years ago with no actual access plan in place and also when there were a lot less MVs on the road.

CFB Kingston comes to mind when I think of a base that was built with absolutely no plan for access control.  It's got a major highway running through the middle of it, no stand off for the gates, too many entrances.  

Ther are private residences that belong to the general public that you have to drive through the base to get to.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Who knows, security requires a credible threat.  It also usually only gets put in place after something actually happens.
> 
> It will take a major incident for any organization in this country to change its actual posture.  The biggest issue for most CAF establishments is Access Control or lack thereof.  Most bases were built many years ago with no actual access plan in place and also when there were a lot less MVs on the road.
> 
> CFB Kingston comes to mind when I think of a base that was built with absolutely no plan for access control.  It's got a major highway running through the middle of it, no stand off for the gates, too many entrances.
> 
> Ther are private residences that belong to the general public that you have to drive through the base to get to.



These can all be turned into assets to a security plan. For example, highways (longitudinally) can be great barriers to various escape routes.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Also saw a post earlier this morning with a 'hats off' message to the folks in our national/global transport industries, who will be the ones going from location to location replacing all the panic toilet paper purchases, etc and might not have the option to 'remain home for a minimum of 3 weeks'.


Indeed


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

GF says her Costco is totally dead today once the TP ran out by 09:30.....guess that means that some folks are done panic buying and are now hunkering down.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> GF says her Costco is totally dead today once the TP ran out by 09:30.....guess that means that some folks are done panic buying and are now hunkering down.


One of our Walmarts here has the "2 per person" signs up (same for hand sanitizer), which seems to be slowing things down a bit.

Meanwhile, in France ....


> Thousands of French security forces fanned out across central Paris on Saturday as anti-government “Yellow Vest” protesters defied a ban on mass gatherings aimed at preventing the spread of coronavirus.
> 
> In a televised address to the nation on Thursday, President Emmanuel Macron announced school closures and urged people to avoid close contact for fear of propagating the virus that has killed 79 people in France and infected more than 3,600.
> 
> Interior Minister Christophe Castaner on Friday said all gatherings with more than 100 people had been banned. Paris police had already turned down requests for protesters to demonstrate at sensitive sites this Saturday, including the Champs Elysees where violent clashes broke out between security forces and protesters almost a year ago to the day.
> 
> “It’s Saturday, demonstration day. Some people think that the coronavirus won’t touch them and refuse to respect the advice,” said a riot police officer in front of a heavily armed vehicle blocking the road that leads to the presidential palace.
> 
> The government published an official decree on Saturday banning all non-essential gatherings, but hundreds of protesters, some wearing protective masks, began convening outside the Montparnasse train station, chanting anti-Macron slogans.
> 
> The yellow vests, named after the high-visibility jackets they wear, were holding a 70th consecutive Saturday of action. The movement emerged late in 2018, triggered by fuel tax rises, and swelled into a revolt against Macron’s government.
> 
> While protests are now much smaller, anger at Macron’s government remains. Saturday’s demonstration serves as a reminder to the President a day before voters are set to go to the polls in local elections ...


----------



## FJAG

Here's a good article (with excellent graphics) about how and why socially distancing and isolating works.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/?fbclid=IwAR0LPOJNz5IZzv-PsfyY6H46gzYVEzTalEjR4tiP3VSXRtcAim5UspsKnmw&utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

 :cheers:


----------



## macarena

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> (...)
> As well, I bought 4 packs of extra strength ibuprofen and some other anti-inflammatories.  Given the number one symptom is high fever, very surprised there is so much ibuprofen left as NSAIDs help keep fever under control.



Hi, All!
Humphrey Bogart, big fella:
Please pay some attention to some warnings coming from France. It seems they have published infos warning to avoid anti-inflamatories [1, 2, 3].
I do have Ibuprofen at home which have been recommended, by a doctor, to my 4 y.o. kid in the past years.
I've read that Ibuprofen is classified as anti-inflamatory, while Paracetamol is not. [4, 5].

I'm not a medic, I am from IT. From my side, I will be contacting the pediatric doctor to ask to switch it to Paracetamol. 
I would like to suggest you to do the same, I mean, do a re-check with some doctor from your side.

[1]
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-drug/france-warns-against-use-of-anti-inflammatory-drugs-to-tackle-coronavirus-idUSKBN2110Q8

[2]
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/03/14/world/europe/14reuters-health-coronavirus-france-drug.html

[3]
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/anti-inflammatory-drugs-may-aggravate-coronavirus-infection

[4]
https://www.londondoctorsclinic.co.uk/blog/ibuprofen-vs-paracetamol/

[5]
https://www.medibank.com.au/livebetter/health-brief/health-check/paracetamol-vs-ibuprofen/


----------



## Civvymedic

Great to do research and stay informed. I can say as a Medic we are getting a ton of decent and reasonable information from credible sources and also a lot of opinion and speculation that can sometimes cause more harm than good. Always best to check with your medical professional before changing any Meds. 

We have cancelled elective surgeries and other practices that maintain good health here in Ontario, it's unfortunate that many may suffer from the un intended consequences of this whole thing.


----------



## Infanteer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What would a good plan look like? Does anyone know?



Just go to any base in the United States.  Some, like Lewis-McCord or Quantico, have an interstate running through them, but they still manage to have fairly tight installations.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Just go to any base in the United States.  Some, like Lewis-McCord or Quantico, have an interstate running through them, but they still manage to have fairly tight installations.



They also designed the interstate off-Ramps with access control in mind.  Fort Drum and Benning being great examples.  Fort Drum, if I remember correctly, has one entrance for the whole base.  It runs off I-81 and is a 4 lane highway that goes for a couple of miles before arriving at the single access control point, which is constantly manned but surprisingly takes less time to get through than our shoddy security in places like Petawawa, where the lineups in the morning are horrendous.


----------



## mariomike

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> I can say as a Medic we are getting a ton of decent and reasonable information from credible sources and also a lot of opinion and speculation that can sometimes cause more harm than good.



Good luck to you, Civvymedic. Glad to be sitting this one out.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quarantine.... from the Italian for '40 days anchored off of Venice waiting for everyone to die':


Eyam recalls lessons from 1665 battle with plague 

Coronavirus crisis has powerful echoes in the Derbyshire village that once self-isolated to save others

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/eyam-derbyshire-coronavirus-self-isolate-1665-plague


----------



## Eye In The Sky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> What would a good plan look like? Does anyone know?



Situation-dependant to start?  Watching that Pandemic docuseries on Netflix, they were following around the Dr appointed by the WHO to stop the ebola spread in the Congo, specifically stopping it from entering Goma.  Everyone trying to enter would be stopped at a checkpoint and their temp was taken (using the ear).

Was this effective?  I have absolutely no idea...but they were doing 'something'.  Most times, something is better than nothing.  At least asking people getting off that airliner from Italy in Montreal "hey are you feeling ok"...might have been something.   :dunno:


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> People are trustworthy and will self-isolate. Right?  :rofl:



Indeed. 

People like this...in response to AOC essentially requesting people to do their part and be courteous; help isolate.

I can’t deal with mentality such as this. Ever. It irks me like nothing else. Unfortunately, this level of maturity exists plenty outside of US borders...

On another note, Ottawa has been advised to avoid any non-essential excursions out and about.

 Do not go out for 'non-essential reasons': Ottawa's top doctor

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/do-not-go-out-for-non-essential-reasons-ottawa-s-top-doctor-1.4853924


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> People like this...in response to AOC essentially requesting people to do their part and be courteous; help isolate.
> 
> I can’t deal with mentality such as this. Ever. It irks me like nothing else. Unfortunately, this level of maturity exists plenty outside of US borders...



That is why, outside Canada, of course, Japan has always been my favorite destination as a tourist: 

Their three keys to discipline are order, cleanliness, and punctuality.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Going "out" may not be the issue, it's where you go. Going for a walk in the woods or large park away from people is fine, wash your hands


----------



## Weinie

Interesting article here on the potential "why' that the coronavirus is spreading. Nothing biological/medical is implicated.

https://quillette.com/2020/03/14/conceit-and-contagion-how-the-virus-shocked-europe/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Colin P said:
			
		

> Going "out" may not be the issue, it's where you go. Going for a walk in the woods or large park away from people is fine, wash your hands



Absolutely. Getting fresh air may be what helps some, like me, maintain their sanity...my hikes and runs are a necessity. I’m not in Ottawa, but was planning to head there to see family over March break with the lil guy. That’s been postponed as their two little ones are sick anyway.

My area is still fairly low-key, with only a couple of confirmed cases. But the empty shelves/panic-buying and advisories to engage in little contact is in full swing. Schools are closed, public pools, arenas, all casinos are closing in Ontario (there are two not far from me), privately-managed businesses are releasing temporary notices, etc. More to come, I’m sure. Nature=escape.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

mariomike said:
			
		

> That is why, outside Canada, of course, Japan has always been my favorite destination as a tourist:
> 
> Their three keys to discipline are order, cleanliness, and punctuality.



Yes, much like many parts of east Asia. I desperately wanted to get to Japan when I lived in SK, we just never made it. One day I’ll get there...


----------



## Weinie

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Yes, much like many parts of east Asia. I desperately wanted to get to Japan _*when I lived in SK*_, we just never made it. One day I’ll get there...



I always wanted to escape Saskatchewan when I was there too. ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Let the mourning begin for those toilet rolls who fell during the Battle of Coronovirus, 2020:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx2rW78uuw4


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Weinie said:
			
		

> I always wanted to escape Saskatchewan when I was there too. ;D



Don’t blame you


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Let the mourning begin for those toilet rolls who fell during the Battle of Coronovirus, 2020:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx2rW78uuw4



They haven't fallen, just put in reserve.  And similar to the  Cdn Army PRes, little thought was made as to task or purpose.


----------



## MilEME09

Alberta just closed schools and child care facilities, worryingly they report two cases of unknown origin.


----------



## Weinie

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> They haven't fallen, just put in reserve.  And similar to the  Cdn Army PRes, little thought was made as to task or purpose.



I don't know about that, always thought they got the sh&*tty jobs.


----------



## mariomike

Saw this on Facebook:

"Your grandparents were asked to go to war. You are being asked to sit on a couch. You can do this."


----------



## eliminator

Just completed my BGRS registration for my move this APS! 
I'm pretty apprehensive of how this pandemic will complicate my move....HHT, buying, selling, etc.


----------



## dimsum

eliminator said:
			
		

> Just completed my BGRS registration for my move this APS!
> I'm pretty apprehensive of how this pandemic will complicate my move....HHT, buying, selling, etc.



Well, so far no one has said anything about Canadian HHTs.  I'd be interested to know how the stock market dip will affect the amount of buyers since I'm going to a really hot market.


----------



## Weinie

Toilet Paper Fun Facts


About four billion people don't use toilet paper. About 70% - 75 % of the world’s population does not use toilet paper.
People in some parts of the world do not use toilet paper due to a lack of trees.
Some people don’t use toilet paper because they can’t afford it.
A lot of people would rather not spend money on fancy paper to wipe their behinds.
Water is the universal solvent, not paper.
Toilet paper has secondary uses such as nose care, removing makeup, covering toilet seats, packaging material, cleaning mirrors, cleaning glasses, etc. 
Two-ply toilet paper consists of two layers of 10 thickness paper, one ply is made of a 13 thickness paper, and so, two-ply is not necessarily twice the thickness.
When comparing one-ply and two-ply on average one-ply toilet paper lasts twice as long. One-ply will also tend to break down faster in a septic system.
In an average household, the average roll of toilet paper lasts approximately five days.
Consumers use approximately 8 - 9 sheets of paper per toilet use.
We use an average of 57 sheets of toilet paper a day! 
The average roll weighs 227 grams (measurements: 4.5 inches by 4.5 inches per sheet)
Seven percent of Americans steal rolls of toilet paper in hotels or motels.
If you hang your toilet paper so you can pull it from the bottom, you're deemed to be more intelligent than someone who hangs their toilet paper and pulls it from the top.
 It takes about 384 trees to make the toilet paper that one man uses within his lifetime.
The average person uses 100 rolls of toilet paper per year (over 20,000 sheets).
The daily production of toilet paper is about 83,048,116 rolls per day.
Toilet paper is often used for making dresses.
An average tree weighs 1,000 pounds which would yield 450 pounds of bleached chemical pulp, assuming a 90% converting yield, approximately 810 rolls of toilet paper would be produced from a single tree. 
In many countries you do not flush the paper.
Today, there is in-office machine, which turns used copier paper into toilet rolls, right there in the office.
Toilet paper was first patented in Albany (Small country in Europe)


----------



## Weinie

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Well, so far no one has said anything about Canadian HHTs.  I'd be interested to know how the stock market dip will affect the amount of buyers since I'm going to a really hot market.



If you are coming to Ottawa the stock market dip is yet to be realized here.(although it is early yet) The house beside me just sold for 50% more than the identical house on the other side of me sold for 7 months ago. Scary.


----------



## kev994

CBC is reporting that Alberta just closed their schools indefinitely and handing out final grades.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> If you are coming to Ottawa the stock market dip is yet to be realized here.(although it is early yet) The house beside me just sold for 50% more than the identical house on the other side of me sold for 7 months ago. Scary.



I’m in the south end and it’s been a wild couple years. To build the same house now that we signed for in Jan 2017 would cost $170k more.

We have half a condo in downtown Vancouver that we’re prepping to sell right now. Our realtor said people are still buying, they’re just going to appointment only now. People still need places to live, and a full 1% drop in mortgage rates (maybe another .5% mid April) doesn’t hurt.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Ontario's ramping down elective surgeries.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Ontario also suspending all civil and family law courts starting March 17, except for absolutely urgent hearings. Also, criminal courts are winding down to absolute bare minimum. 
What’s more, there’s no end date to the suspension. I don’t think this has ever happened in Ontario before.
https://www.ontariocourts.ca/scj/


----------



## brihard

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Ontario also suspending all civil and family law courts starting March 17, except for absolutely urgent hearings. Also, criminal courts are winding down to absolute bare minimum.
> What’s more, there’s no end date to the suspension. I don’t think this has ever happened in Ontario before.
> https://www.ontariocourts.ca/scj/



Yup. I had a criminal trial coming up Wednesday and a traffic trial next week. Any criminal matter for Ontario provincial court will be kicked back 10 weeks on a bench warrant with discretion, without the accused having to appear.


----------



## Drallib

Just showed up to the unit and they're telling us a decision will be made on what we're doing.

We'll either have; 
- a handful of technicians to service a few aircraft on standby
- have one crew here working to keep Force Generation going, or 
- everyone at work as normal.

This was information passed down Friday to be made today.


----------



## SupersonicMax

bloque said:
			
		

> Please read the latest issue of Apple magazine. The scientists have come up with the vaccine. Trials have started.



Trials normally take years.  The type of vaccine will be novel.  Experts don’t expect anything certified for 18 months at least.


----------



## MilEME09

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Trials normally take years.  The type of vaccine will be novel.  Experts don’t expect anything certified for 18 months at least.



Not to mention with a rushed vaccine and trial, the chances are much higher of problems, risks, complications, or even failure.


----------



## Remius

Yeah, rushing trials like that may cause a whole slew of issues. 

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-vaccine-trial-no-animal-testing.html


----------



## Quirky

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Not to mention with a rushed vaccine and trial, the chances are much higher of problems, risks, complications, or even failure.



That's how World War Z started. #neverforget.

It's a good thing the Canadian Forces are strong, physically fit and live healthy live styles that in the event they do contract the COVIDS, they will show little to no symptoms.....


----------



## OldSolduer

I’d like to inject some humour here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some more corporate largesse:  _*"Alibaba's Jack Ma Sends Boxes of Coronavirus Test Kits and Masks to U.S."*_

Ma's statement via Twitter attached.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:
			
		

> That's how World War Z started. #neverforget.
> 
> It's a good thing the Canadian Forces are strong, physically fit and live healthy live styles that in the event they do contract the COVIDS, they will show little to no symptoms.....



Dude, I think you forgot the 'sarcasm' emoji....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest Johns Hopkins numbers ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Quick updates ...

_*"	Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced that Canada will be shutting the border to non-Canadian citizens, with the exception of permanent residents, their immediate families, diplomats and U.S. citizens at this time.  Anyone who has symptoms of COVID-19 will not be able to enter Canada ..."*_ (CTV) - PM statement still under way on this one as I post
_*"Ontario workers won’t lose jobs if forced to stay home due to COVID 19, government says"*_ (The Canadian Press)


----------



## brihard

PM Presser
- Canada no exception to fast spread
- Since beginning, gov't took necessary measures to protect health. Based on science and evidence, input form health professionals nad authorities.
- Continue to base response on keeping Cdns protected and supported.
- As virus continues, increasginly aggressive steps:
- We will be closing our borders to non-citizens/permanent residents. Certain exceptions fo crew members, diplomats, and members of immediate families.
- All travelers with symptoms banned from getting on an airline. Air operators required to compelte a basic health assessment. Anyone with symptoms cannot come to Canada.
- Some financial relief for Canadians stuck overseas. Financial assistance to help with costs of returning home, or covering basic needs overseas.
- Beginning wednesday March 18th, international flights only to Toronto Pearson, Montreal Trudeau, YVR, and Calgary airport. Domestic and US/Mexico/Caribbean flights not affected.
- Travel restrictions do not apply to trade or businesses to allow flow of essential goods.

"Canadian travelers should return from abroad via commerical means while it's still possible. To be clear, it's time to come home".

Also, he's telling everyone to self-isolate for 14 days on return.

PMJT sounds pretty congested, like sick.


----------



## Drallib

Brihard said:
			
		

> PM Presser
> - Canada no exception to fast spread
> - Since beginning, gov't took necessary measures to protect health. Based on science and evidence, input form health professionals nad authorities.
> - Continue to base response on keeping Cdns protected and supported.
> - As virus continues, increasginly aggressive steps:
> - We will be closing our borders to non-citizens/permanent residents. Certain exceptions fo crew members, diplomats, and members of immediate families.
> - All travelers with symptoms banned from getting on an airline. Air operators required to compelte a basic health assessment. Anyone with symptoms cannot come to Canada.
> - Some financial relief for Canadians stuck overseas. Financial assistance to help with costs of returning home, or covering basic needs overseas.
> - Beginning wednesday March 18th, international flights only to Toronto Pearson, Montreal Trudeau, YVR, and Calgary airport. Domestic and US/Mexico/Caribbean flights not affected.
> - Travel restrictions do not apply to trade or businesses to allow flow of essential goods.
> 
> "Canadian travelers should return from abroad via commerical means while it's still possible. To be clear, it's time to come home".
> 
> Also, he's telling everyone to self-isolate for 14 days on return.
> 
> PMJT sounds pretty congested, like sick.




We're gonna wait for things to get worse before taking the next steps, when we suspect things to get worse, and by which time things will be worse and we'll just wait to see if it gets worse to take the next step... before it gets worser. 

I do think Canada is ahead of the game though.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Much of Canada can do social distancing unless you live downtown, we can go out to woods, park and get fresh air and exercise without getting close to people. I see a distinct reduction in traffic beyond the normal spring break. One thing I have heard from a reliable source is that the lower Mainland refinery is already struggling with trained manpower issues, before this and if the current workforce gets hit hard, then the possibility of refined shortages exist, in other words don't run on empty.


----------



## Kirkhill

Colin P said:
			
		

> Much of Canada can do social distancing unless you live downtown, we can go out to woods, park and get fresh air and exercise without getting close to people. I see a distinct reduction in traffic beyond the normal spring break. One thing I have heard from a reliable source is that the lower Mainland refinery is already struggling with trained manpower issues, before this and if the current workforce gets hit hard, then the possibility of refined shortages exist, *in other words don't run on empty*.



Why not?  You lot beyond Hope are going have to get used to it soon enough.    ;D ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows

Most people are so absorbed by their mobile devices that I doubt they'll notice a drop in live interaction much.  As usual, comms are critical in a crisis.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Why not?  You lot beyond Hope are going have to get used to it soon enough.    ;D ;D



Fortunately, as you know, 'First Blood' was filmed in Hope and, coincidentally, is an excellent example of how we tend to operate West of the 'Great Divide' (the Ontario/ Manitoba border)


----------



## mariomike

Mandarin shut down all 29 locations.  :'(


----------



## BeyondTheNow

mariomike said:
			
		

> Mandarin shut down all 29 locations.  :'(



Ours is closed for dine-in only. Take out is still available.


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Ours is closed for dine-in only. Take out is still available.



Yes,

Mandarin Restaurants has made the difficult decision to suspend buffet and dine-in service at all 29 locations effective March 16, until further notice. Take-out and delivery service will continue to be available for our guests.
https://mandarinrestaurant.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Letter-from-President.pdf


----------



## Remius

I’ll be curious to see what the carbon footprint reduction is going to look like.  How many countries might actually meet their emission targets because of this... ;D


----------



## cavalryman

Remius said:
			
		

> I’ll be curious to see what the carbon footprint reduction is going to look like.  How many countries might actually meet their emission targets because of this... ;D



I'm thinking China already surpassed theirs.


----------



## stellarpanther

Sorry if this was already mentioned but I went back a bit and didn't see anything.  My son who is a class A Reservist received an email from his CoC letting them know that they are not to come in at least until 30 Mar 2020.  It also stated that they won't be paid for those missed nights.  This is ridiculous and my guess is it will piss off a lot of those mbr's and rightly so.  It's one thing not get paid if you chose not to show up but to have them make the decision to stand them all down and then not pay them is BS.  A lot of those mbr's are students and depend on this money.  The Federal and Provincial governments are asking employers to try to still pay their employees while closed and then the CAF pulls this crap.  I'm sure they still except them to be ready to respond if there is a national emergency.  It's unbelievable to me.


----------



## Infanteer

I don't see why it's unbelievable - that's the way class A works.  As for folks depending on money, he shares that problem with millions of other Canadians.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Sorry if this was already mentioned but I went back a bit and didn't see anything.  My son who is a class A Reservist received an email from his CoC letting them know that they are not to come in at least until 30 Mar 2020.  It also stated that they won't be paid for those missed nights.  This is ridiculous and my guess is it will piss off a lot of those mbr's and rightly so.  It's one thing not get paid if you chose not to show up but to have them make the decision to stand them all down and then not pay them is BS.  A lot of those mbr's are students and depend on this money.  The Federal and Provincial governments are asking employers to try to still pay their employees while closed and then the CAF pulls this crap.  I'm sure they still except them to be ready to respond if there is a national emergency.  It's unbelievable to me.



In your best_ I want to speak to the manager_ tone, email the commanding officer of your sons unit and suggest/ask them if they would consider coming up with a plan to offer to pay unit members for training nights if they complete a series of CoC identified DLN courses (which they can take at home).

There's leadership courses, safety courses, IBTS related courses, all kinds of stuff. Member provides proof they completed the "distance learning", they get paid for a half day's training. Stretch it out over 2 or 3 weeks.

Troops get money. Unit has good optics. Looks good for recruiting. Soldiers improve professional development. Everyone wins.


----------



## Remius

What Jarn just said.  Some units are actually doing that.  This isn’t a CAF direction, it’s your son’s unit not thinking outside the box.

GBA+, whims, there’s PERs to start writing etc etc etc.  

I don’t however recommend mom or dad call the CoC though...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> In your best_ I want to speak to the manager_ tone, email the commanding officer of your sons unit and suggest/ask them if they would consider coming up with a plan to offer to pay unit members for training nights if they complete a series of CoC identified DLN courses (which they can take at home).
> 
> There's leadership courses, safety courses, IBTS related courses, all kinds of stuff. Member provides proof they completed the "distance learning", they get paid for a half day's training. Stretch it out over 2 or 3 weeks.
> 
> Troops get money. Unit has good optics. Looks good for recruiting. Soldiers improve professional development. Everyone wins.



Great idea.

A CO might consider paying a few troops at a time just to come in and clean weapons, test radios, conducting fan out prep, sorting out the RQ stores, dry tentage, first parade/ test drive vehicles, stock take, complete PT tests etc. I assume as long as they bring in fewer than the max recommended at one time (is it 50 people? Not sure) then they should be OK.

If the Reserves are on standby to deploy and help out with some kind of Dom Op, their gear etc better be ready.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Great idea.
> 
> A CO might consider paying a few troops at a time just to come in and clean weapons, test radios, conducting fan out prep, sorting out the RQ stores, dry tentage, first parade/ test drive vehicles, stock take, complete PT tests etc. I assume as long as they bring in fewer than the max recommended at one time (is it 50 people? Not sure) then they should be OK.
> 
> If the Reserves are on standby to deploy and help out with some kind of Dom Op, their gear etc better be ready.



Not sure about most places, but ours is off limits to everyone.  Access is limited to maybe one or two key people for now as far as I know.  So not feasible right now.


----------



## Infanteer

Exactly.  The direction is operationally required activity only.  Having folks come in to write PERs and clean rifles doesn't fall under that definition.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:
			
		

> Not sure about most places, but ours is off limits to everyone.  Access is limited to maybe one or two key people for now as far as I know.  So not feasible right now.



Well, there is that ‘clear direction thing’ from the CDS.


----------



## Remius

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Exactly.  The direction is operationally required activity only.  Having folks come in to write PERs and clean rifles doesn't fall under that definition.



PERS can be drafted or worked on from home. Rifles not so much.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Cleaning a rifle doesn’t fall into the “operational necessity” category.


----------



## Remius

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Cleaning a rifle doesn’t fall into the “operational necessity” category.



I believe that is what we were saying.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Well, there is that ‘clear direction thing’ from the CDS.



It’s not so clear to all units, ours is still fully, about 90% manned I’d say, operational. “Essential” is always up to interpretation to seems. In my opinion we are in no way essential to anything military in this country. Oh well.


----------



## Lumber

Quirky said:
			
		

> It’s not so clear to all units, ours is still fully, about 90% manned I’d say, operational. “Essential” is always up to interpretation to seems. In my opinion we are in no way essential to anything military in this country. Oh well.



Yea were having trouble interpreting some of the direction as well. For exempts, the CDS's direction in one place says (regarding trainging establishments and colleges) "all schools will confine students to base...". The majority of the students at naval schools don't live on base... Are we to pack are bags and move in? Yay free food!


----------



## SupersonicMax

Take the intent and go with it and re-adjust.  This is what local commanders need(ed) to do...


----------



## stellarpanther

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I don't see why it's unbelievable - that's the way class A works.  As for folks depending on money, he shares that problem with millions of other Canadians.



I understand how class A works however, the optics don't look good when the government is asking civilian employers to try to still pay their hourly workers for missed time due to closures but won't do it themselves.  Why should it be different?


----------



## SupersonicMax

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand how class A works however, the optics don't look good when the government is asking civilian employers to try to still pay their hourly workers for missed time due to closures but won't do it themselves.  Why should it be different?



What is the government doing/asking companies to do for part-time workers?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand how class A works however, the optics don't look good when the government is asking civilian employers to try to still pay their hourly workers for missed time due to closures but won't do it themselves.  Why should it be different?



The “optics” for a standard Class A, I’m sorry to say, is irrelevant. 

Let’s suppose, hypothetically, CAF decides they’re going to give their Class ‘A’ some sort of payment. How, exactly, are they to break it down? *Technically* speaking, they’re only required to pde once/mth, right? So just give every Class A a half day’s pay for each month their Regt is shut down? (Less than 6hrs is 1/2 day.) Well, for a Pte that’s not much. It wouldn’t make any sort of difference.

How about breaking it down by average attendance/mbr/mth? How far back should the OR go to determine when the ‘average’ should take effect? Cpl Bloggins has paraded an average of 4 days each month since...But what if this particular member was tasked, got lucky and landed an 89 class B, what if a Pte is on a co-op BMQ, what if the mbr was FTSE which only applies to more recent enrolees, what about if a member has been excused from parading for whatever reason, what if...etc etc. (And the logistics in some of these hypothetical payment scenarios would be hell for the OR, btw. The only simple entry would be if an order came down to ‘pay all Ptes this much, Cpls this much, Mcpls this much etc under X fincode.)

I get what you’re saying, but there’s no way to really dole out payments to PRes in a fair and equal manner. Class A is volunteer. In addition, all Class A’s are not treated equally, nor do they have the same opportunities up for grabs. Taskings, Class Bs and such can be very competitive at times. There are also Class As who consistently do the bare minimum required and never get tasked out, never do full-time, avoid extra duties like the plague...Are they to be compensated in the same manner as those pers who are super-switched on and constantly gung-ho?

Yes, there are those who depend on Class A for their primary pay-cheque. But that’s simply not the way it was designed to be. There are key FTUC and coy positions which have been deemed “essential.” Some are full-time, some aren’t. The rest, unfortunately, isn’t. The plus is that no one will be penalized/marked NES for not attending—there’s zero repercussions right now, zero expectation for a typical Class A. That normally isn’t the case.


----------



## ballz

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Take the intent and go with it and re-adjust.  This is what local commanders need(ed) to do...



Is the financial year-end critical / operationally necessary? Particularly landing on targets set back in December within +/- 0.5%?

I would have thought a hard no. In fact, with the additional financial strain the government will now face with a recession, additional healthcare support, additional financial support to families, an economic stimulus package, my pea-brain would think we should not be repurposing any spending that was cancelled... i.e. training exercises that just got turned off, should not be re-purposed to buy staplers just to land on target.

Of course, doing so requires more people in the buildings.

At this time, it appears L0 is about to show me again why I'm just a silly Captain and March madness must continue.


----------



## MilEME09

Any one have an educated guess at how much of a training back log this will create if it lasts say 3 months? I imagine it would be substantial, the Pres training summer is likely a write off, reg for e courses probably won't gear up till fall at the earliest.


----------



## brihard

Westjet is ceasing all international flights after Sunday, including transborder to the US. After Sunay the 22nd, they will not operate commercially outside of Canada's borders. They're saying they plan to operate 'rescue and repatriation flights' in cooperation with the government.

Domestic flights will also be cut in half.

https://blog.westjet.com/statement-on-operations-and-network-from-ed-sims/?fbclid=IwAR2eJ3om78SFuDhSKVKAwKN7AERYEDdkDW8msZmIINMZNDc7sin5VKhIr2o


----------



## Zoomie

Class A pers should be paid based upon the proposed training schedule during Ph 3 of Op Laser.   In the case of some RCAF PRes members, if they work 12 days a month, they will get paid 12 days regardless of where they actually serve it.   They could be sitting at home at 30 mins NTM, it still is work.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Ditch said:
			
		

> Class A pers should be paid based upon the proposed training schedule during Ph 3 of Op Laser.   In the case of some RCAF PRes members, if they work 12 days a month, they will get paid 12 days regardless of where they actually serve it.   They could be sitting at home at 30 mins NTM, it still is work.



It’s a feasible idea, but if I understand what you’re suggesting correctly, the issue there could potentially be things needing to be paid out twice. Let’s use a PLQ mod2 for example. It’s in the forecasted training schedule and Ph3 is instituted. If you’re suggesting pers earn wages equivalent to what they would’ve gotten paid during said training because it was on the forecasted/proposed training schedule, but are instead at home due to orders, then at some point in the future they’re still going to have to get paid to complete that training again. That would certainly cause issues if using that method across CAF for all PRes types of training/attendance, for however long the phase(s) remain in effect.

...although hypothetically I suppose the financial aspects could be ironed out. Extra money could eventually get funnelled down from Bgd (or applicable level) if needed. Edit to add: But that takes time and funds aren’t unlimited.


----------



## Remius

And keep in mind that the OP Lentus rotation is about to begin.  With spring coming some CBGs will be hard pressed if we end up with the kind of flooding we had last year.  Some troops will have to be called in for that and its preparations.  But I guess that would be operational essential at that time.

Another note: if the stand down continues for too long, a lot of PRES types will be looking for other employment.  A lot will not return either.  At least not to the same level of commitment they did before. Many of those guys might have been laid off their other jobs or not be paid from other employment as well.

Now some units are providing for some class a work in the form of DLN courses, and some admin style work but that can only last for so long as well, depending on how this plays out.  And if we hit a recession I doubt there will be a ton of class A to be had.

We’ll see how it plays out but I suspect that FTUC will be far busier than they were before when this all ends.


----------



## FSTO

Remius said:
			
		

> And keep in mind that the OP Lentus rotation is about to begin.  With spring coming some CBGs will be hard pressed if we end up with the kind of flooding we had last year.  Some troops will have to be called in for that and its preparations.  But I guess that would be operational essential at that time.


Re: Flooding. Here in the Ottawa River Valley region, we've had a good spring so far. Melting in the day with below freezing temps at night. That last few days of cold weather has allowed some of the meltwater to dissipate. This upcoming weekend may change things with the 24 hr above zero temps and rain. Fingers crossed that this year will only have to deal with regular localized flooding.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from Ontario last night ...


> ... Ontario is responding to the evolving situation by moving forward with new measures to help contain the virus, including the recommended closure of all recreational programs and libraries, private schools, daycares, churches and other faith settings, as well as bars and restaurants, except those that may only offer takeout or delivery ...


... with another announcement coming 0800 Eastern today.


----------



## kev994

Winnipeg closed pretty much everything on Sunday, libraries, Rec centres, etc. School is still on for the week though.


----------



## 211RadOp

Ontario has declared a state of emergency.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-declares-state-of-emergency-amid-covid-19-pandemic-1.4856033


----------



## OldSolduer

kev994 said:
			
		

> Winnipeg closed pretty much everything on Sunday, libraries, Rec centres, etc. School is still on for the week though.



But the government run casinos are still open. 🦠


----------



## PPCLI Guy

ballz said:
			
		

> Is the financial year-end critical / operationally necessary? Particularly landing on targets set back in December within +/- 0.5%?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> At this time, it appears L0 is about to show me again why I'm just a silly Captain and March madness must continue.



I have a few questions:

Were you born a silly Capt in a Div HQ?  
Or did you start somewhere else?  
Have you always had such a dim view of Higher HQ?  
Did you used to bitch about those "bobbleheads" at Section HQ?  
Did you automatically become incompetent and useless - and indeed a bobblehead - when you were posted to Division from, I would image, somewhere lower in the CofC?  
Are you the single exception, and L3s and L4s all thing that you (and your HQ) are super checked out and have all the answers?

Some further questions:

Do you think that the direction on end FY management comes from L0? 
Do you think the CDS or the DM have the authority to overspend / not report / just give it a whirl?
Is it likely that L0 are in contact daily with teh center, including Treasury Board, on these exact issues?
Do you think perhaps the "center" is already considering moving the end of the GoC FY to the right to reflect the COVID-19 crisis?

I understand your frustration, but think perhaps you are jumping to some conclusions that conform to your biased views of "higher"....

Just a few thoughts.


----------



## Journeyman

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> thoughts


      ^^^  
Ah, if only more people were capable, and practiced it    :not-again:


----------



## daftandbarmy

I’m an epidemiologist. When I heard about Britain’s ‘herd immunity’ coronavirus plan, I thought it was satire 

The UK should not be trying to create herd immunity, that will take care of itself. Policy should be directed at slowing the outbreak to a (more) manageable rate. What this looks like is strong social distancing. Anyone who can work from home, should. People who do not yet work from home should be encouraged to do so. Employers should guarantee sick pay, including for contacts of known cases, and do everything they can to discourage the practice of “presenteeism”. You should not shake hands. Not with anyone. You should wash your hands for 20 seconds several times a day and whenever you enter your home (or someone else’s home). Call a halt to large gatherings. Educate people about masks and how they should be reserved for the medical professionals who need them. All this and more should have started weeks ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/15/epidemiologist-britain-herd-immunity-coronavirus-covid-19


----------



## mariomike

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Ontario has declared a state of emergency.



Some guys on Facebook are worried they will shut down the LCBOs, and are stocking up. 

Like they were doing with toilet paper last week.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> But the government run casinos are still open. 🦠


Not here in Ontario as of Sunday.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Meanwhile in Tampa Bay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZamrmTMs6w


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I’m an epidemiologist. When I heard about Britain’s ‘herd immunity’ coronavirus plan, I thought it was satire
> (...)
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/15/epidemiologist-britain-herd-immunity-coronavirus-covid-19


Netherlands, too.


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:
			
		

> And keep in mind that the OP Lentus rotation is about to begin.  With spring coming some CBGs will be hard pressed if we end up with the kind of flooding we had last year.  Some troops will have to be called in for that and its preparations.  But I guess that would be operational essential at that time.
> 
> Another note: if the stand down continues for too long, a lot of PRES types will be looking for other employment.  A lot will not return either.  At least not to the same level of commitment they did before. Many of those guys might have been laid off their other jobs or not be paid from other employment as well.
> 
> Now some units are providing for some class a work in the form of DLN courses, and some admin style work but that can only last for so long as well, depending on how this plays out.  And if we hit a recession I doubt there will be a ton of class A to be had.
> 
> We’ll see how it plays out but I suspect that FTUC will be far busier than they were before when this all ends.



On the flip side, a lot of troops are unemployed, out of school, laid off, etc... due to this pendemic so force generation of man power will not be an issue if we get hit by an OP Lentis right now. I do not agree that many will not come back, and frankly if this is what it takes for you to quit, we really do not need troops with such a wishy washy commitment level any way.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Sorry if this was already mentioned but I went back a bit and didn't see anything.  My son who is a class A Reservist received an email from his CoC letting them know that they are not to come in at least until 30 Mar 2020.  It also stated that they won't be paid for those missed nights.  This is ridiculous and my guess is it will piss off a lot of those mbr's and rightly so.  It's one thing not get paid if you chose not to show up but to have them make the decision to stand them all down and then not pay them is BS.  A lot of those mbr's are students and depend on this money.  The Federal and Provincial governments are asking employers to try to still pay their employees while closed and then the CAF pulls this crap.  I'm sure they still except them to be ready to respond if there is a national emergency.  It's unbelievable to me.



Sounds like a poor CoC...there are ways to get them paid. I know of a CO asking members to do online courses and he will pay them for it. 

"Members who complete DLN courses from home are to email their Course reports (CERTIFICATE), Timings that they completed the course and their particulars (Service number, Name, Rank) to their immediate supervisor. 
The Supervisors will compile their returns under an attendance register which will then be sent to CC who will hold the final copy for signatures once OP LASER is completed. This must be done NLT XXXXXXXXX"


----------



## daftandbarmy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> On the flip side, a lot of troops are unemployed, out of school, laid off, etc... due to this pendemic so force generation of man power will not be an issue if we get hit by an OP Lentis right now. I do not agree that many will not come back, and frankly if this is what it takes for you to quit, *we really do not need troops with such a wishy washy commitment level any way.*



Dude, seriously?  :


----------



## MilEME09

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Sounds like a poor CoC...there are ways to get them paid. I know of a CO asking members to do online courses and he will pay them for it.
> 
> "Members who complete DLN courses from home are to email their Course reports (CERTIFICATE), Timings that they completed the course and their particulars (Service number, Name, Rank) to their immediate supervisor.
> The Supervisors will compile their returns under an attendance register which will then be sent to CC who will hold the final copy for signatures once OP LASER is completed. This must be done NLT XXXXXXXXX"



My take away from that though is that pay will come after OP Laser is over, it's not like everyone can print off, sign, scan, and email in a paysheet. One of the options I see is once FTSE hit's and we enter the end phase of laser, we bring all the troops in for X days or until their civilian jobs are back and running. I have posted it else where but Class A and class B reservists can be ordered to parade upto 60 and 15 days respectively. 60 days of class A can get a lot of work done if used effectively.


----------



## MilEME09

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Dude, seriously?  :



Care to elaborate?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> My take away from that though is that pay will come after OP Laser is over, it's not like everyone can print off, sign, scan, and email in a paysheet. One of the options I see is once FTSE hit's and we enter the end phase of laser, we bring all the troops in for X days or until their civilian jobs are back and running. I have posted it else where but Class A and class B reservists can be ordered to parade upto 60 and 15 days respectively. 60 days of class A can get a lot of work done if used effectively.



the actual date has been redacted but would be on mid april pay run...


----------



## BDTyre

I'm class A and I was mid-course and we were stood down on a day we were to make a road move and carry out some PO checks over the weekend. If we stick to the propose date of a 6 April return I will be short 7.5 days of Class A pay. In addition, I now face having to make up two weekends at a later time but this could also affect two 5-day Class A periods next month and in May. Thankfully I have a civilian job which is planning on continuing business as usual, but still I am out a decent chunk of change...for now. And I may have to reschedule planned vacation at my civilian job to accommodate any adjustments to the course schedule. It is what it is. It's been done for a good reason.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Sorry if this was already mentioned but I went back a bit and didn't see anything.  My son who is a class A Reservist received an email from his CoC letting them know that they are not to come in at least until 30 Mar 2020.  It also stated that they won't be paid for those missed nights.  This is ridiculous and my guess is it will piss off a lot of those mbr's and rightly so.  It's one thing not get paid if you chose not to show up but to have them make the decision to stand them all down and then not pay them is BS.  A lot of those mbr's are students and depend on this money.  The Federal and Provincial governments are asking employers to try to still pay their employees while closed and then the CAF pulls this crap.  I'm sure they still except them to be ready to respond if there is a national emergency.  It's unbelievable to me.



If your son is that hard up for the money, he better be the first person in line to sign up for Op LENTUS tasks, or any tasks related to aide to civil power falling out from COVID-19. The CAF should absolutely not be paying someone who may or may not have shown up at work. I'm a former Army Reservist, and at no time did I expect Class A pay/training nights. If I wanted stable employment, I would have gotten a Class B or a civilian job.


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If your son is that hard up for the money, he better be the first person in line to sign up for Op LENTUS tasks, or any tasks related to aide to civil power falling out from COVID-19. The CAF should absolutely not be paying someone who may or may not have shown up at work. I'm a former Army Reservist, and at no time did I expect Class A pay/training nights. If I wanted stable employment, I would have gotten a Class B or a civilian job.



First of all my son isn't hard up for money at all.  He lives at home still as he's a grade 12 student.  Most of his stuff is still paid for my me,.  I was referring to a lot of students in general that live away from home and are in college etc.  As for your opinion about the CAF not paying class A mbr's.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Dude, seriously?  :



Concur...


----------



## daftandbarmy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If your son is that hard up for the money, he better be the first person in line to sign up for Op LENTUS tasks, or any tasks related to aide to civil power falling out from COVID-19. The CAF should absolutely not be paying someone who may or may not have shown up at work. I'm a former Army Reservist, and at no time did I expect Class A pay/training nights. If I wanted stable employment, I would have gotten a Class B or a civilian job.



Having said that, I have always taken the advice of my various Sergeants Major (I know, call me a unicorn) re: who is more dependent on their Class A pay than others. 

During downtime, like we have now, when we took the opportunity to conduct maintenance activities that couldn't be addressed during regular parade periods, the CSM/RSM/RQ would create a group of 'willing workers' who would be available to come in to do that work. They'd manage it so the work was shared around, of course, and I kept my nose well out of that decision making process.

In the end, soldiers who needed the cash got paid and the important maintenance work was completed. Win-Win.


----------



## PuckChaser

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Having said that, I have always taken the advice of my various Sergeants Major (I know, call me a unicorn) re: who is more dependent on their Class A pay than others.
> 
> During downtime, like we have now, when we took the opportunity to conduct maintenance activities that couldn't be addressed during regular parade periods, the CSM/RSM/RQ would create a group of 'willing workers' who would be available to come in to do that work. They'd manage it so the work was shared around, of course, and I kept my nose well out of that decision making process.
> 
> In the end, soldiers who needed the cash got paid and the important maintenance work was completed. Win-Win.



Yep, there's always stuff that needs to get done. A high school kid living at home with no expenses missing out on 2 or 3 half days of pay is not a real big priority in the grand scheme of things. Probably should be more worried about finishing Grade 12 properly and getting into post-secondary....


----------



## daftandbarmy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yep, there's always stuff that needs to get done. A high school kid living at home with no expenses missing out on 2 or 3 half days of pay is not a real big priority in the grand scheme of things. Probably should be more worried about finishing Grade 12 properly and getting into post-secondary....



And that's exactly what you should think like as a senior leader if you want to ramp up the (already astronomical) attrition rate....


----------



## PuckChaser

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And that's exactly what you should think like as a senior leader if you want to ramp up the (already astronomical) attrition rate....



If 2 or 3 half days pay that someone may or may not have gotten over 3 weeks is what makes someone quit, then they were leaving soon anyways. You and I both know the issues that need to be fixed are well beyond pay. If it was just the money, then you'd be getting more than a Section showing up to the Coy-level training night for the 5th iteration of the GBA/Harassment brief they've had to sit through that year.


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Care to elaborate?



I can elaborate from my end.  Maybe you don’t remember end of 2010 when they cut arbitrarily half the class B pool across the country.  Reserve units and not HQs were hit hard.  Plus they stopped all class A work. A lot people I know that were affected went to find other jobs, some actually quit.  As soon as I could I said eff this and found civy work and never looked back.  I certainly did not step up for that summer’s area concentration and I stopped volunteering for extra work like courses and such.  I still did my job but i stopped doing extra.  I eventually calmed down but it would be a few years before I recommitted to the same level.  But my time teaching summers ended there for good.  I’ve done two Lentus deployments plus a whole load of other work since then but I understood that in the end I had to look out for myself.  

These are exceptional times but don’t be so shocked if some troops look elsewhere for their pay if they can when all is said and done.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If 2 or 3 half days pay that someone may or may not have gotten over 3 weeks is what makes someone quit, then they were leaving soon anyways. You and I both know the issues that need to be fixed are well beyond pay. If it was just the money, then you'd be getting more than a Section showing up to the Coy-level training night for the 5th iteration of the GBA/Harassment brief they've had to sit through that year.



If you think this will only last 3 weeks, then you need to pay more attention.  I hope some get called up for whatever assistance.  The longer this goes on the worse it will get. 

But really, how hard is it for the CAF to say yeah, we’ll cover at least a half day a week as we would have regardless.  Instead it’s suck it troops and you better show up when we need you.  right.  That may have worked 10 years ago, but millennials for all their faults won’t fall for that.


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yep, there's always stuff that needs to get done. A high school kid living at home with no expenses missing out on 2 or 3 half days of pay is not a real big priority in the grand scheme of things. Probably should be more worried about finishing Grade 12 properly and getting into post-secondary....


No one is worried about anything... I (not him) think it is ridiculous not to pay Class A workers when the CAF is preventing them from working.


----------



## Quirky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> No one is worried about anything... I (not him) think it is ridiculous not to pay Class A workers when the CAF is preventing them from working.



He could join the Reg force, be on salary and never have to worry about it in the future. There are a lot of people out there, including spouses of members in my unit, who were essentially laid off beceause of all this.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

When things calm down and the government is looking at ways to inject money into the economy, I hope they do some SYEP courses as well. They were a great recruiting tool and exposed a lot of people to the Reserves.


----------



## Weinie

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> No one is worried about anything... I (not him) think it is ridiculous not to pay Class A workers when the CAF is preventing them from working.



Got it that you think it is *unfair*: life is about to get really *unfair* (read_ go to sh&t_) for a whole bunch of Canadians. The service industry, hospitality industry, the elderly, and airline workers to name a few, not to mention the potential tsunami that is about to descend on the medical system and its support staff. Your son has a roof over his head, I am assuming three squares a day, and is young enough that he is likely to be unaffected in any major way from this. Perhaps it will be a good life lesson.


----------



## BDTyre

We just received notice from our CoC that Class A pay is available for admin and training - writing PERs - complete PT routines (for those ID'd as going on summer courses), completing DL courses, planning for Unit CT or Bde IT and other activities approved by the CO. It is all stuff that can be done from home with the proper resources.

We've also been told no DOMOP on the horizon, but that if one is called out, 39CBG will be responding.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We just received notice from our CoC that Class A pay is available for admin and training - writing PERs - complete PT routines (for those ID'd as going on summer courses), completing DL courses, planning for Unit CT or Bde IT and other activities approved by the CO. It is all stuff that can be done from home with the proper resources.
> 
> We've also been told no DOMOP on the horizon, but that if one is called out, 39CBG will be responding.



And, just like that, sanity prevails


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And, just like that, sanity prevails



Look what happens when people think outside of the box...


----------



## BDTyre

I should add that the 39CBG DOMOP call out would be Vancouver area only...


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> Look what happens when people think outside of the box...



Don't think this was outside the box: the box that the CDS and the DM own is huge, and there is a lot of stuff in it. It takes some time to do the inventory, categorize it, and decide where the inventory falls on the priority list, and priorities will change.

Look at the amount of activities that are happening at the local, municipal, provincial, and national level. Nowhere near all of the questions have been sorted out, and they come from peoples/groups/interests POV. I have only seen any degree of altruism from the medical and ethics communities, the majority of the rest of folks are asking "what about my particular situation" Perhaps that is to be expected, I'm older and it wasn't always this way. Difficult problems require complex solutions, and triage.


----------



## Remius

It seems to be out of the box for some...


----------



## Remius

So if anyone thinks this will get worse it will.  Be because people are stupid.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZamrmTMs6w


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> So if anyone thinks this will get worse it will.  Be *because people are stupid*.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZamrmTMs6w



Also, self-centred, misled, partisan, un-informed, narcissistic, oblivious, self-absorbed, egotistic.......the list doth grow by the day.


----------



## Weinie

Forgot hedonistic


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Latest update for Ontario, with the provinces first death. I also an article stating that there are three confirmed cases for Kingston, but are not listed in this write up.



> Ontario confirms 8 more COVID-19 cases, first coronavirus-related death reported in province
> 
> By Gabby Rodrigues and Jessica Patton Global News
> 
> Posted March 17, 2020 10:52 am
> Updated March 17, 2020 4:15 pm
> 
> Dr. Barbara, Associate Medical Officer of Health for Toronto Public Health, told reporters on Tuesday what specific criteria the province was outlining for those seeking a COVID-19 test, saying their biggest concern is over-testing what she called the "worried well."
> 
> Ontario health officials have announced eight new confirmed cases of the novel coronavirus bringing the provincial total of active cases to 180. The province also reported its first death – a man in his 70s in Muskoka.
> 
> Numbers released on Ontario’s website on Tuesday show that five of the new cases are from Hamilton, two are from Middlesex-London region and one is from York Region.
> 
> All patients are listed as self-isolating. Form of transmission for seven patients are listed as pending, one case from York Region is listed as having travelled to Costa Rica.
> 
> Barbara Yaffe, associate chief medical officer of health, said that 75 per cent of cases were related to travel outside of Canada, with 29 per cent coming from the US.
> 
> When asked about who should be being tested, Yaffe said the “most important thing to keep in mind is that we don’t want anyone tested who does not have symptoms.”
> 
> “The most important thing to keep in mind Is that we don’t want anyone tested who do not have symptoms.”
> 
> The province has five resolved cases. More than 11,000 patients have been tested for COVID-19 so far.
> 
> Ontario health officials said the lab has been able to modify its testing methodology and are now able to test almost 2,000 samples a day. The hope is to get to the capacity to test 5,000 day.
> 
> Late Tuesday morning, Health Minister Christine Elliott confirmed to Global News that a 77-year-old man has died, possibly as a result of close contact with another positive coronavirus case in Muskoka. The man wasn’t confirmed to have contracted the virus until it was found in his system post-death, Elliott said.
> 
> “The matter, at our request, is now being investigated by the Coroner’s office to determine whether this person passed away because of COVID-19 or with COVID-19. That’s a really important distinction,” Elliott said adding that they will not officially know for at least one day. She added that the deceased had other physical problems.
> 
> Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer David Williams said in a press conference Tuesday afternoon that he understands people are scared and anxious but overall he said “overall that Ontarians are responding well in hailing this crisis.”
> 
> “During this time it’s very important that we have a combination of consistent messaging, proper timely messaging and to inform the public.”
> _
> “We’re asking for one to not be scared but for one to be aware and know what’s happening.”
> Tweet This_
> 
> If confirmed, this would be Ontario’s first confirmed death of COVID-19.
> 
> The Ontario government announced a provincial state of emergency on Tuesday.
> 
> However, Williams said it is not a “heightened emergency state but it’s a heightened state of emergency response by the provincial government.”
> 
> © 2020 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.



Link


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Remius said:
			
		

> So if anyone thinks this will get worse it will.  Be because people are stupid.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZamrmTMs6w



I decided to choose to pick up a couple of things last evening at a Farm Boy on the far end of town, basically on the outskirts. It proved to be a good idea, as practically everything was fully stocked and there weren’t many shoppers inside. 

I stopped to speak with a younger stock boy, perhaps 19 or 20 to ask where an item was, and also asked how he/the store was fairing. He chuckled and said he was lucky, because since Farm Boy carries a lot of specialty foods and not as many of the standard grocery items, he wasn’t seeing the crowds that other stores were seeing. We chatted a little bit more, I said thank you and before we parted he ended with, “...but I’ve learned there’s no way we’re gonna survive a zombie apocalypse.” I laughed pretty loudly.

Sad, but sometimes I think I agree...


----------



## tomahawk6

The thing that irks me is the closing of bars and restaurants [ except carry out/drive thru. It affects people who live off tips unfairly. I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. Fox had a helpful topic yesterday about an anti-malarial drug being used that works against the virus,namely chloroquine.


----------



## OldSolduer

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The thing that irks me is the closing of bars and restaurants [ except carry out/drive thru. It affects people who live off tips unfairly. I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. Fox had a helpful topic yesterday about an anti-malarial drug being used that works against the virus,namely chloroquine.



I am on hydrochlorquine. Rheumatoid Arthritis med.

Good to hear.


----------



## Weinie

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The thing that irks me is the closing of bars and restaurants [ except carry out/drive thru. It affects people who live off tips unfairly. I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. Fox had a helpful topic yesterday about an anti-malarial drug being used that works against the virus,namely chloroquine.



Interesting. Old drugs work against new viruses.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7054408 

Chloroquine, a widely-used anti-malarial and autoimmune disease drug, has recently been reported as a potential broad-spectrum antiviral drug.8,9 Chloroquine is known to block virus infection by increasing endosomal pH required for virus/cell fusion, as well as interfering with the glycosylation of cellular receptors of SARS-CoV.10 Our time-of-addition assay demonstrated that chloroquine functioned at both entry, and at post-entry stages of the 2019-nCoV infection in Vero E6 cells (Fig. 1c, d). Besides its antiviral activity, chloroquine has an immune-modulating activity, which may synergistically enhance its antiviral effect in vivo. Chloroquine is widely distributed in the whole body, including lung, after oral administration. The EC90 value of chloroquine against the 2019-nCoV in Vero E6 cells was 6.90%u2009%u03BCM, which can be clinically achievable as demonstrated in the plasma of rheumatoid arthritis patients who received 500%u2009mg administration.11 Chloroquine is a cheap and a safe drug that has been used for more than 70 years and, therefore, it is potentially clinically applicable against the 2019-nCoV.
Our findings reveal that remdesivir and chloroquine are highly effective in the control of 2019-nCoV infection in vitro. Since these compounds have been used in human patients with a safety track record and shown to be effective against various ailments, we suggest that they should be assessed in human patients suffering from the novel coronavirus disease.


Don't know all the big words and medical terminology but it may have some efficacy. Also, how many older folks are on a rheumatoid arthritis regimen here in Canada? Could potentially limit their severity of symptoms. Any good news would be welcome at this stage.


----------



## Remius

Some encouraging news.

https://ottawacitizen.com/health/canada-among-top-world-performers-in-testing-for-covid-19-despite-shortcomings/wcm/96e7a4e2-4a06-4e69-89a2-bb77ad330607?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2aHM3cnsGV3VPuKV2qxGkk0NJ0fz8S1zGrZ57szxSwWU5nU9xISVd_6wQ#Echobox=1584409103


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=tomahawk6] I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. 
[/quote]
Is this real or sarcasm?


----------



## ballz

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have a few questions:
> 
> Were you born a silly Capt in a Div HQ?
> Or did you start somewhere else?
> Have you always had such a dim view of Higher HQ?
> Did you used to ***** about those "bobbleheads" at Section HQ?
> Did you automatically become incompetent and useless - and indeed a bobblehead - when you were posted to Division from, I would image, somewhere lower in the CofC?
> Are you the single exception, and L3s and L4s all thing that you (and your HQ) are super checked out and have all the answers?



Not worth addressing in this thread as it's not COVID-19 related, but it'd make a great tangent thread. Not going to waste time telling you the state of the mid-level leadership disenfranchisement right now, I'm sure you'd tell me I'm just imagining it anyway. Admittedly, it was a bit of a troll in relation to the recent conversation but it's based on an elements on truth and that is why it illicits an emotive response.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Do you think that the direction on end FY management comes from L0?
> Do you think the CDS or the DM have the authority to overspend / not report / just give it a whirl?
> Is it likely that L0 are in contact daily with teh center, including Treasury Board, on these exact issues?
> Do you think perhaps the "center" is already considering moving the end of the GoC FY to the right to reflect the COVID-19 crisis?



Look at what I was responding to and try re-reading what I said. We're not at risk of overspending, we're at risk of underspending. The comment was that local commanders should interpret the intent and carry on. My point is that, if you were to interpret intent, you'd conclude that underspending right now is a good thing and that the gov't probably wouldn't want you to blow money needlessly, and also that the CDS probably doesn't want people being brought in to conduct such spending. Instead, the direction we're getting is to have more people at work (not in line with intent) in order to repurpose slippage so that we aren't "underspent" on 31 March (not in line with intent as it's not in support of any operational activities). Therefore, trying to look down the noses at  L2/L3/L4 HQs about how they should have all this in the bag because of "intent" is quite irritating when the "intent" and "direction coming from higher" completely conflict.

The CAF being underspent this year does not threaten operations or critical FG requirements. We should not be dedicating resources to wasting money. We should not be bringing people in to order more glowsticks and printer paper. Period. And then insert the opposite direction from the top.

I'm aware of what they are asking for regarding year-end activities. I hope they're successful but in the end it's fine if they're not. I'd bet my mortgage that the actual dates of the FY will not be changing though, so I hope they are not wasting their time chasing that. Neither of those two points is what I was getting at.


----------



## Weinie

ballz said:
			
		

> *Not worth addressing in this thread* as it's not COVID-19 related, but it'd make a great tangent thread. Not going to waste time telling you the state of the mid-level leadership disenfranchisement right now, I'm sure you'd tell me I'm just imagining it anyway. Admittedly, it was a bit of a troll in relation to the recent conversation but it's based on an elements on truth and that is why it illicits an emotive response.
> 
> Look at what I was responding to and try re-reading what I said. We're not at risk of overspending, we're at risk of underspending. The comment was that local commanders should interpret the intent and carry on. My point is that, if you were to interpret intent, you'd conclude that underspending right now is a good thing and that the gov't probably wouldn't want you to blow money needlessly, and also that the CDS probably doesn't want people being brought in to conduct such spending. Instead, the direction we're getting is to have more people at work (not in line with intent) in order to repurpose slippage so that we aren't "underspent" on 31 March (not in line with intent as it's not in support of any operational activities). Therefore, trying to look down the noses at  L2/L3/L4 HQs about how they should have all this in the bag because of "intent" is quite irritating when the "intent" and "direction coming from higher" completely conflict.
> 
> The CAF being underspent this year does not threaten operations or critical FG requirements. We should not be dedicating resources to wasting money. We should not be bringing people in to order more glowsticks and printer paper. Period. And then insert the opposite direction from the top.
> 
> I'm aware of what they are asking for regarding year-end activities. I hope they're successful but in the end it's fine if they're not. I'd bet my mortgage that the actual dates of the FY will not be changing though, so I hope they are not wasting their time chasing that. Neither of those two points is what I was getting at.




And then you address it.


----------



## ballz

Weinie said:
			
		

> And then you address it.



 : I guess you can't figure out for yourself why I quoted his post in two distinct parts.


----------



## Sub_Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The thing that irks me is the closing of bars and restaurants [ except carry out/drive thru. It affects people who live off tips unfairly. I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. Fox had a helpful topic yesterday about an anti-malarial drug being used that works against the virus,namely chloroquine.



This really isn’t an issue in Canada.  Before anyone jumps all over me, yes they like their tips, but most servers in Canada get paid at least minimum wage.

https://www.narcity.com/life/heres-how-much-a-server-is-getting-paid-per-hour-by-province-in-canada

https://www.minimum-wage.org/tipped    (Tipped workers USA)


----------



## Weinie

Ballz,

For the first fifteen or twenty years in the CAF I sometimes looked askance at decisions made higher and lower in the chain of command, and sometimes ridiculed them. For the last 17 years, with experience, maturity, and context, I have adopted a much more pragmatic view. For the last fifteen years, I have worked at NDHQ (yah, I know...cool-aid drinker working for the bobbleheads you are thinking). I have come to see that decisions are made in an environment that is fast-paced, complex, and where we don't control all of the variables: financial, resources, governments, publics, enemies, special interest groups, ethics, moral considerations, life etc all have a vote or have the ability to influence things to some or varying degrees, and that is just in normal times. Overlay the potential chaos of covid-19, and it has just become exponentially more difficult to command/manage to everyone's satisfaction.

You have been given some good advice here by many members, but you may notice that patience for your dogmatic approach is not infinite with some of us. Perhaps some rumination and self-reflection may be in order.

And no, I won't be offended if you flip me the bird in front of the computer. I have four kids and a wife and far more important considerations that consume me right now.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The thing that irks me is the closing of bars and restaurants [ except carry out/drive thru. It affects people who live off tips unfairly. I think the seating could be adjusted so folks can stay 6' away from others. Fox had a helpful topic yesterday about an anti-malarial drug being used that works against the virus,namely chloroquine.



I have difficulty with the word “unfairly.” Life is not fair, but that’s why more decent people in this world are needed for helping each other out when things get tough. Some people can’t comprehend and adopt that manner of thinking. ‘Fair’ is also what is causing people to act selfishly and inconsiderately. Many are only worried about themselves; from keeping essential household items from others (and selling them for a profit), to disregarding the safety & health of others so they can continue to ‘do what they want, when and where’, because it’s not ‘fair’ that they should be told to limit their social interactions.

I do not envy the several trying to figure out how the next few weeks (and possibly longer) are going to unfold, personally or professionally. But there are those who are attempting to step up, at least in Canada, from government bodies to next door neighbours.

On the other note—Sitting people 6’ apart won’t do enough. Money changing hands, debit/cc machines, door handles, tables/surfaces, airborne particles, etc etc. Sanitizing & handwashing isn’t foolproof, unfortunately.


----------



## tomahawk6

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is this real or sarcasm?



More on drugs that seem to work.

\https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0


Real.


----------



## Remius

I honestly don’t thing restaurants have the PPE or sanitation equipment to achieve even that.  As mentioned, money exchanges hands.  Interac machines will be touched by so many people.  Chairs, washrooms, tables, cutlery, glasses etc etc etc.  Not a good scene.


----------



## BDTyre

MOPP4 for all!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We just received notice from our CoC that Class A pay is available for admin and training - writing PERs - complete PT routines (for those ID'd as going on summer courses), completing DL courses, planning for Unit CT or Bde IT and other activities approved by the CO. It is all stuff that can be done from home with the proper resources.
> 
> We've also been told no DOMOP on the horizon, but that if one is called out, 39CBG will be responding.



My worry is that various essential services like water/power/sewage/refined fuels could be affected if a number of key people are struck down by the virus. I know from working with various industries that there are shortages of trained experienced people in those positions. Something like the power grid takes a number of trained people to keep stable and without enough people, things get out of hand or mistakes are made leading to blackouts/brownouts. One options is to see which key positions are critical and train volunteers from Combat Engineers or similar that could step in to cover shifts or support those key positions in different ways.


----------



## Infanteer

I don't think we will see that - just an uneducated guess, but if you look at Italy, things are locked down, but society isn't falling apart.  Relatively speaking, this isn't at that point of lethality.


----------



## eliminator

HHTs cancelled for the next three weeks and BGRS Planning Sessions being cancelled...due to "temporarily closed our office and are prioritizing the delivery of essential services").


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I don't think we will see that - just an uneducated guess, but if you look at Italy, things are locked down, but society isn't falling apart.  Relatively speaking, this isn't at that point of lethality.



I know that the refinery here is very worried about that scenario, the shortage of trained workers in BC was already acute prior to all this. Lot of tugboats were tied up and cargo not moving due to shortage of ticketed crew, most of the masters are in the high risk group.


----------



## Weinie

Colin P said:
			
		

> I know that the refinery here is very worried about that scenario, the shortage of trained workers in BC was already acute prior to all this. Lot of tugboats were tied up and cargo not moving due to shortage of ticketed crew, most of the masters are in the high risk group.



Although I agree with Infanteer that basic services will only experience mild disruption best case, I do think we will see some surprising stories when we start to see failures of some key (but not considered) links in supply and service chains


----------



## PPCLI Guy

ballz said:
			
		

> Not worth addressing in this thread as it's not COVID-19 related, but it'd make a great tangent thread. Not going to waste time telling you the state of the mid-level leadership disenfranchisement right now, I'm sure you'd tell me I'm just imagining it anyway. Admittedly, it was a bit of a troll in relation to the recent conversation but it's based on an elements on truth and that is why it illicits an emotive response



I have been in for a very long time (unlike Infanteer, who remains a pup).  I know here you are at.  I have worked for you.  I have been you.  I gave commanded you.  I have career managed you.  I get it.  What I did learn though as I progressed beyond parity with you is that there is in fact, always, a broader context.  There is always a reason.  It may be, as you suggest, that I have simply become a booblehead. It could also be that I am quite as dedicated to my profession, and just as committed to serving the troops as you are, and that I did not trade in my soul, my honour, or my brain as I went, as you seem to imply.



> Look at what I was responding to and try re-reading what I said. We're not at risk of overspending, we're at risk of underspending. The comment was that local commanders should interpret the intent and carry on. My point is that, if you were to interpret intent, you'd conclude that underspending right now is a good thing and that the gov't probably wouldn't want you to blow money needlessly, and also that the CDS probably doesn't want people being brought in to conduct such spending. Instead, the direction we're getting is to have more people at work (not in line with intent) in order to repurpose slippage so that we aren't "underspent" on 31 March (not in line with intent as it's not in support of any operational activities). Therefore, trying to look down the noses at  L2/L3/L4 HQs about how they should have all this in the bag because of "intent" is quite irritating when the "intent" and "direction coming from higher" completely conflict.



All true. Always has been.  Everyone in government who has ever had Fiscal or Fiduciary responsibility is aware of the disconnect.   Just as aggravating now as it was the first time anyone was responsible for a unit, tour, division, or L1 budget.  It is, however, a known factor.   GOOD Log Os work within that to squeeze maximum value.



> The CAF being underspent this year does not threaten operations or critical FG requirements. We should not be dedicating resources to wasting money. We should not be bringing people in to order more glowsticks and printer paper. Period. And then insert the opposite direction from the top.



unless you factor in L0 considerations like carry forward, NP, OFA etc.



> I'm aware of what they are asking for regarding year-end activities. I hope they're successful but in the end it's fine if they're not. I'd bet my mortgage that the actual dates of the FY will not be changing though, so I hope they are not wasting their time chasing that. Neither of those two points is what I was getting at.



Uhuh.


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:
			
		

> I honestly don’t thing restaurants have the PPE or sanitation equipment to achieve even that.  As mentioned, money exchanges hands.  Interac machines will be touched by so many people.  Chairs, washrooms, tables, cutlery, glasses etc etc etc.  Not a good scene.



I've been cooking professionally 10 years, I can tell you the trades schools take sanitation seriously. I did 3 weeks of food borne illness, pathogens, and sanitation, you are not allowed to continue with the program(atleast at SAIT) if you dont pass this block. Proper cleaning procedures and sanitization are crucial in a commercial kitchen, commercial dish washers come in two flavors high temperature and chemical sanitation. So long as your are scrubbing everything before it goes in, the machine will get it sanitized. 

The biggest failure is restaurants is health inspection not going far enough, temperature logs, and other things are not checked regularly enough, once a year Inspection isnt good enough and many cut corners. I always look up health inspection reports before dining out. What it comes down to is a lack of training of staff if things aren't sanitized properly.  

TLDR: there is a difference between clean and sanitary


----------



## Bearpaw

Some new  fast CV-tests  in Japan----should try them here and US:

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2020/03/fifteen-minute-coronavirus-test.html#more-163404

Bearpaw


----------



## Weinie

Bearpaw said:
			
		

> Some new  fast CV-tests  in Japan----should try them here and US:
> 
> https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2020/03/fifteen-minute-coronavirus-test.html#more-163404
> 
> Bearpaw



Source; The Jakarta Post

Yeah, or maybe the company is trying to make a fast buck. Wouldn't be the first time. Their company website doesn't lend itself to credence in the medical field. As always, love to be proved wrong when it is of benefit, especially now.

https://www.kurabo.co.jp/english/company/about.html


----------



## BeyondTheNow

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I've been cooking professionally 10 years, I can tell you the trades schools take sanitation seriously. I did 3 weeks of food borne illness, pathogens, and sanitation, you are not allowed to continue with the program(atleast at SAIT) if you dont pass this block. Proper cleaning procedures and sanitization are crucial in a commercial kitchen, commercial dish washers come in two flavors high temperature and chemical sanitation. So long as your are scrubbing everything before it goes in, the machine will get it sanitized.
> 
> The biggest failure is restaurants is health inspection not going far enough, temperature logs, and other things are not checked regularly enough, once a year Inspection isnt good enough and many cut corners. I always look up health inspection reports before dining out. What it comes down to is a lack of training of staff if things aren't sanitized properly.
> 
> TLDR: there is a difference between clean and sanitary



I worked in the restaurant industry for a bit also while I was in school. The kitchen isn’t necessarily the issue. It’s front end. I can 100% guarantee that Remius’s statement is accurate. While managers/owners/head offices may implement more intense measures such as more highly concentrated cleaners/sanitizers, cleaning more often, including other surfaces and items that may not get as much attention under typical working conditions, (phones, POS systems, entire surfaces of all restaurant furniture, salt & pepper shakers, every single thing behind the bar, etc.) it won’t get done thoroughly or timely/on schedule. That’s the reality. Even high-end restaurants & eateries will suffer from the same front-end maintenance issues.


----------



## OldSolduer

One thing I noted today. I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go. The "lady" in front of me was starting to use abusive language to the people behind the counter. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I spoke up and told her that her language was abusive and she shouldn't be treating people this way, or words to that effect . I got an earful. 
When I went outside she accosted me again, and gave me another earful. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I may have  did say something to her that was not very polite.

My point being that I think we may see more of this kind of behavior when people who have never wanted for anything are all of a sudden told "NO, you may not have (whatever it is they are asking for)".


----------



## Remius

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> One thing I noted today. I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go. The "lady" in front of me was starting to use abusive language to the people behind the counter. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I spoke up and told her that her language was abusive and she shouldn't be treating people this way, or words to that effect . I got an earful.
> When I went outside she accosted me again, and gave me another earful. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I may have said something to her that was not very polite.
> 
> My point being that I think we may see more of this kind of behavior when people who have never wanted for anything are all of a sudden told "NO, you may not have (whatever it is they are asking for)".



Hopefully not. So far I’ve seen a lot of good stuff happening as people band together to distance themselves, see what I did there? 

There were people like that before this.  But I get your point, some people won’t like their lives distrusted by this and what others are trying to do.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> One thing I noted today. I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go. The "lady" in front of me was starting to use abusive language to the people behind the counter. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I spoke up and told her that her language was abusive and she shouldn't be treating people this way, or words to that effect . I got an earful.
> When I went outside she accosted me again, and gave me another earful. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I may have said something to her that was not very polite.
> 
> My point being that I think we may see more of this kind of behavior when people who have never wanted for anything are all of a sudden told "NO, you may not have (whatever it is they are asking for)".



It’s not safe to challenge people like that. Seriously.

It helps if you shoot them with plastic bullets... right in the guts. And, for some reason, it’s always the women who are the worst.

There, AAR results shared. GBA+ test failed


----------



## BeyondTheNow

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It’s not safe to challenge people like that. Seriously.
> 
> It helps if you shoot them with plastic bullets... right in the guts. And, for some reason, it’s always the women who are the worst.
> 
> There, AAR results shared. GBA+ test failed



Eeeeezzzzzeeeeee there, big fella... ;D 

But I tend to agree.


----------



## Weinie

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> One thing I noted today. I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go. The "lady" in front of me was starting to use abusive language to the people behind the counter. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I spoke up and told her that her language was abusive and she shouldn't be treating people this way, or words to that effect . I got an earful.
> When I went outside she accosted me again, and gave me another earful. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I may have said something to her that was not very polite.
> 
> My point being that I think we may see more of this kind of behavior when people who have never wanted for anything are all of a sudden told "NO, you may not have (whatever it is they are asking for)".



Once an RSM, always an RSM and....she should have Remembered the golden rule. :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go.



For those who prefer to avoid drug stores, we order our prescriptions, and over the counter items, online,

https://www.mroo.org/en/member-services/prescriptions.aspx

"Order your prescriptions online and have them delivered right to your door, usually by the next business day."

https://alliancepharmacygroup.ca:8443/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> One thing I noted today. I had to pick up a prescription at the pharmacy where I normally go. The "lady" in front of me was starting to use abusive language to the people behind the counter. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I spoke up and told her that her language was abusive and she shouldn't be treating people this way, or words to that effect . I got an earful.
> When I went outside she accosted me again, and gave me another earful. Having the right to remain silent, but not the ability, I may have  did say something to her that was not very polite.
> 
> My point being that I think we may see more of this kind of behavior when people who have never wanted for anything are all of a sudden told "NO, you may not have (whatever it is they are asking for)".



While my supply is not bad, I worry about a steady stream of Insulin for my daughter, I know in some places there are shortages. The nice thing so far is the Canadian FB page for Type 1's very supportive and people give each other needed supplies as they can.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Weinie] she should have Remembered the golden rule. :cheers:
[/quote]

If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.


----------



## Kirkhill

Just wondering -

I know that Canadian Forces Health Services can get the occasional Canadian soldier out of Afghanistan to an American hospital in Germany prior to being repatriated to a civilian hospital in Canada.....

But how good are they now at handling a mass casualty event?

How much canvas do the Field Ambulances hold?

We (and the Brits, and the Yanks, and the French, and the Italians) have spent so much time trimming dollars from budgets in the name of efficiency, in pursuit of the exotic, in fear of lawyers, that we will have to reinvent capabilities developed between the Crimea and Sarajevo (1853 to 1914 - not this century).


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.



That's the problem when people go feral. You might go feral right back at them.  In this enlightened age of equality for all, I don't think I would have a moment of remorse for giving someone like that a puck in the mouth, regardless of gender, or lack thereof.


----------



## Kirkhill

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Just wondering -
> 
> I know that Canadian Forces Health Services can get the occasional Canadian soldier out of Afghanistan to an American hospital in Germany prior to being repatriated to a civilian hospital in Canada.....
> 
> But how good are they now at handling a mass casualty event?
> 
> How much canvas do the Field Ambulances hold?
> 
> We (and the Brits, and the Yanks, and the French, and the Italians) have spent so much time trimming dollars from budgets in the name of efficiency, in pursuit of the exotic, in fear of lawyers, that we will have to reinvent capabilities developed between the Crimea and Sarajevo (1853 to 1914 - not this century).



What are St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross doing these days?   Aside from raising money.

Edit:  Post modified because author forgot PerSec is not just a military issue.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Just wondering -
> 
> I know that Canadian Forces Health Services can get the occasional Canadian soldier out of Afghanistan to an American hospital in Germany prior to being repatriated to a civilian hospital in Canada.....
> 
> But how good are they now at handling a mass casualty event?
> 
> How much canvas do the Field Ambulances hold?
> 
> We (and the Brits, and the Yanks, and the French, and the Italians) have spent so much time trimming dollars from budgets in the name of efficiency, in pursuit of the exotic, in fear of lawyers, that we will have to reinvent capabilities developed between the Crimea and Sarajevo (1853 to 1914 - not this century).



Likely each Reserve medical unit with have one ambulance with bare kit and 3-4 units of modular.


----------



## AbdullahD

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> My daughter just graduated as a nurse in May.  Why is she serving coffees at Starbucks?
> 
> What are St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross doing these days?   Aside from raising money.



Northern Health, New hazelton BC. Tell her to apply up here, she will be hired asap, we are screaming for medical professionals. 

If she is not sure about being up here, I can spam beautiful pictures of the area.. stats on cheap real estate.. etc etc etc. It has it's quirks but I love it ^^

Yep, I'm shameless, more health professionals = better for my family ^^
Abdullah


----------



## 211RadOp

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Just wondering -
> 
> I know that Canadian Forces Health Services can get the occasional Canadian soldier out of Afghanistan to an American hospital in Germany prior to being repatriated to a civilian hospital in Canada.....


Can't answer the question, but I can say that a friend's wife was recalled from leave. She is a medic.


----------



## stellarpanther

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Can't answer the question, but I can say that a friend's wife was recalled from leave. She is a medic.



It's one thing to recall people and have them available but do we have the equipment?  You could have 5 doctors standing over the patient but if you don't have ventilators what good will it do?


----------



## brihard

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> My daughter just graduated as a nurse in May.  Why is she serving coffees at Starbucks?
> 
> What are St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross doing these days?   Aside from raising money.



Feds are doing a mass hire for nurses. https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1423325


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Italy rushes new doctors into service as coronavirus deaths rise above 2,500*
> 
> 
> Italy will rush 10,000 student doctors into service, scrapping their final exams, in an effort to help the struggling health service cope with the coronavirus which claimed another 345 lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The death toll rose to 2,503 over the past 24 hours, the Civil Protection Agency said, while the total number of confirmed cases increased to 31,506 from a previous 27,980 - the largest number outside China.
> 
> The crisis has pushed hospitals to breaking point at the epicenter of the contagion in northern Italy and left other regions scrambling to strengthen their own health systems as the number of infected rises nationwide.
> 
> Lombardy is on the point of collapse. All the intensive care beds and respirators are being used,” said Matteo Salvini, head of the League party which governs the wealthy region.
> 
> A potentially dangerous development is the rise in cases in the province of Milan, up by 343 in the last 24 hours to 2,326.
> 
> The 17% rise compares with a much smaller increase of 11% in Lombardy as a whole.
> 
> The epidemic has so far taken a relatively light toll on Italy’s main cities, but there are now 964 confirmed cases in the densely populated financial capital which numbers 1.4 million residents.
> 
> Lombardy’s health chief said it was vital that the Milanese strictly observe all the curbs on movement laid down by the government “to prevent the contagion growing much more strongly in a very populous area like Milan”.
> 
> University Minister Gaetano Manfredi said the government would let this year’s medicine graduates start work some eight or nine months ahead of schedule and waive the mandatory exams they normally sit before qualifying.
> 
> “This means immediately releasing into the National Health System the energy of about 10,000 doctors, which is fundamental to dealing with the shortage that our country is suffering,” he said in a statement.
> 
> The graduates will be sent to work in general practitioners’ clinics and at old peoples’ homes, freeing up more experienced colleagues who will be sent to the rapidly filling hospitals.
> 
> 
> *INTENSIVE CARE CRISIS*
> 
> Over three weeks, 1,135 people have needed intensive care in Lombardy, the northern region hardest hit. The region has only 800 intensive care beds, according to Giacomo Grasselli, head of the intensive care unit at Milan’s Policlinico hospital.
> 
> Authorities have been working to set up hundreds of intensive care beds in a specially created facility in the Fiera Milano exhibition center, but are still waiting for sufficient respirators and qualified personnel.
> 
> Former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi said on Tuesday he would donate 10 million euros ($11 million) to help equip the new center, joining a growing list of wealthy Italians offering funds.
> 
> In Rome, oil major ENI has paid for the multi-million euro conversion of the small, private Columbus hospital into a center for treating coronavirus patients, with the first sufferers being stretchered into the unit on Monday.
> 
> In Genoa, authorities are transforming a ferry into a hospital boat that they hope will be ready by Thursday.
> 
> Looking to map the spread of the illness, the head of the northern Veneto region announced that he would ramp up the number of tests done daily to some 11,300 from 3,000 at present.
> 
> “Even if we find just one positive case, it means we will have 10 less infections,” said Luca Zaia. “I don’t really care about the budget. It is less important than the lives of our citizens.”
> 
> The government last week ordered the blanket, nationwide closure of restaurants, bars and almost all shops except for food stores and chemists, telling Italians to stay home except for emergencies.
> 
> Looking to enforce the order, the police have increased their checks, with some 172,720 people stopped on Monday and questioned about why they were outside - a jump of 50% on Sunday. Of those 7,890 were booked for breaking the law.
> 
> An SWG poll showed just 3% of people thought the lockdown was excessive, while 50% thought more could be done to stop the contagion. There was also anxiety for the future, with just over 50% of people fearing they would lose their jobs.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-idUSKBN214245


----------



## Quirky

Since the CDS' announcement our unit, and base ops for that matter, hasn't missed a beat. 

Just some of the things we've been told in person from our snr, non-medical, officer leadership:
-This virus is not contagious if you don't have symptoms.
-Don't listen to all the fake news out there, CTV and CBC are not always a good source. (I agree, however in this case completely inaccurate)
-We don't care if you have elderly people at home, if you get infected and bring it home, tell your senior to call 811/911. <---Not how it was said by how it was implied.
-The base is in a bubble and isn't affected by what's happening. 
-Keep your head in the game.
-Someone (above rank of Capt) who returned from international leave a day before the 14-day isolation recommendation was announced keeps coming to work, even though their job can easily be done from home. Excuse is their office is not around anyone even though still holds daily meetings with 5+ pers.

 :facepalm:


----------



## OceanBonfire

Quirky said:
			
		

> Since the CDS' announcement our unit, and base ops for that matter, hasn't missed a beat.
> 
> Just some of the things we've been told in person from our snr, non-medical, officer leadership:
> -This virus is not contagious if you don't have symptoms.
> -Don't listen to all the fake news out there, CTV and CBC are not always a good source. (I agree, however in this case completely inaccurate)
> -We don't care if you have elderly people at home, if you get infected and bring it home, tell your senior to call 811/911. <---Not how it was said by how it was implied.
> -The base is in a bubble and isn't affected by what's happening.
> -Keep your head in the game.
> -Someone (above rank of Capt) who returned from international leave a day before the 14-day isolation recommendation was announced keeps coming to work, even though their job can easily be done from home. Excuse is their office is not around anyone even though still holds daily meetings with 5+ pers.
> 
> :facepalm:



What the flying &^%%^&$?!

And CTV and CBC are among the most reliable sources.


----------



## Kilted

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> My daughter just graduated as a nurse in May.  Why is she serving coffees at Starbucks?
> 
> What are St John's Ambulance and the Red Cross doing these days?   Aside from raising money.



I am with St. John Ambulance in a Medical First Response unit and we have been in communication with the Province since January. We are at this point just waiting for direction from the province to become involved. Which if I had to guess, won't be before too long. 

During SARS we were used to transport patents and even responded to some 911 calls because the higher levels of EMS were overwhelmed.


----------



## dapaterson

Porter Airlines is temporarily ceasing operations as of the end of day Friday 20 March, with a tentative reopening on 01 June.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/eporter.flyporter.com/Suspension/index.html

Temporary suspension of service
To our valued customers,

The speed of developments related to COVID-19 is shocking. It is having an unprecedented impact around the globe on businesses, economies and people.

Porter supports the efforts of the Canadian, U.S. and global authorities in their responses. Government actions make it apparent that restricting activities by people in all communities is what’s required to keep everyone healthy, and ultimately to end this fast-spreading pandemic.

As a result, we are doing our part by temporarily suspending flights at the conclusion of the operating day on Friday, March 20. We will resume service on June 1. This time period allows the COVID-19 public health crisis to diminish and then time for us to effectively restart operations.

We intend to operate a schedule through Friday, to ensure all customers have an opportunity to complete trips or make last-minute travel arrangements. This will occur as long as aviation and public health infrastructure allows us to do so safely.

To assist our passengers in returning home on short notice, we’ve waived change and cancellation fees for all our flights. Changes and cancellations can be made online. If you have an upcoming flight booked with us during our temporary suspension, we will email you or your travel agent with information specific to your reservation. It isn’t necessary to contact us at this time while we assist passengers with travel requirements between now and Friday.

These are very challenging times for people. Let’s all do our part to take care of each other.

Sincerely,



Michael Deluce
President and CEO
Porter Airlines Inc


----------



## The Bread Guy

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Italy rushes new doctors into service as coronavirus deaths rise above 2,500 ...


Same with nursing students ....


----------



## OceanBonfire

Spring breakers in Miami:

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/aint-that-serious-miami-spring-breakers-id698053127


----------



## mariomike

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Spring breakers in Miami:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/aint-that-serious-miami-spring-breakers-id698053127



A lot of tourist money injected into the local economy during the cold weather season. ( As long as the beaches stay open. )

Besides that, it won't be until after they leave the State of Florida and return North, that the likelihood of Snowbirds, Spring Breakers etc. turning symptomatic will increase.

( Keeping an eye on my wife who returned from Florida on Sunday night. )

Mayor in "Jaws" ( 1975 ),

"As you see, it's a beautiful day, the beaches are open and people are having a wonderful time."


----------



## FSTO

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Spring breakers in Miami:
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/aint-that-serious-miami-spring-breakers-id698053127



Florida Man needs to keep going right!


----------



## Kirkhill

Brihard said:
			
		

> Feds are doing a mass hire for nurses. https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?poster=1423325



Thanks for that Brihard.  And to Abdullah.


----------



## Kirkhill

Kilted said:
			
		

> I am with St. John Ambulance in a Medical First Response unit and we have been in communication with the Province since January. We are at this point just waiting for direction from the province to become involved. Which if I had to guess, won't be before too long.
> 
> During SARS we were used to transport patents and even responded to some 911 calls because the higher levels of EMS were overwhelmed.



Good stuff Kilted.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## OldSolduer

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results

Maybe some good news.


----------



## tomahawk6

Trump is closing the northern border to non essential travel.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/trump-says-the-us-will-close-the-border-with-canada-to-non-essential-traffic.html


----------



## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Trump is closing the northern border to non essential travel.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/trump-says-the-us-will-close-the-border-with-canada-to-non-essential-traffic.html



Both countries are doing that reciprocally. Trudeau was asked for how long, he answered it'll go as long as it remains necessary. Not quite a 'just watch me' moment, but still, frig, we're talking about the indefinite closure of the Canada US border.

I'm beginning to have concerns that we'll see Americans fleeing north thinking for some reason that they'll be in better shape up here.


----------



## Quirky

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Trump is closing the northern border to non essential travel.
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/trump-says-the-us-will-close-the-border-with-canada-to-non-essential-traffic.html



Illegals crossing at Roxham road is still permitted though, they'll be placed in 14-day isolation, somewhere, on the tax payers dime.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

An interesting note from a possible if not probable future:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/17/hello-italy-your-future-is-grimmer-than-you-think/



> Hello from Italy. Your future is grimmer than you think.
> 
> By Ida Garibaldi
> Ida Garibaldi lives in Vicenza, Italy. She was born in Italy, and, for many years, lived in Alexandria, Virginia.
> 
> March 17, 2020 at 3:18 p.m. EDT
> 
> My family lives in the Veneto, in Northern Italy, one of the regions worst hit by the novel coronavirus. We are on lockdown. It’s scary. It’s lonely. It’s uncomfortable. And did I mention scary?
> 
> I’ll spare you the statistics and the sermons; both are already abundant. But I do want to make one thing clear: If you think that by stocking up your pantries you have absolved yourself from the responsibility of preparing for this virus, you are mistaken. This is a crisis like none before. Be skeptical of both naysayers and doomsayers; there’s no way of knowing how this will end.
> 
> The restrictions came upon us slowly but steadily. Within two weeks, our old lives were gone. First the schools closed, then came social distancing. Then the government locked down the hardest-hit areas: no more going in and out of certain provinces; limited movements within the “red zones.” Then the whole country shut down. Most stores closed their doors. People who could were asked to telework; those who could not, and did not have a job related to the continuation of essential services, were placed on part-time schedules or unpaid leave. When we went out, we had to carry a pass explaining our reasons for being outside to show to the law enforcement officers patrolling the streets. The priority became keeping everyone inside, at all times.
> 
> For some people, the gradual rollout made these measures hard to accept: Skeptical observers questioned the seriousness of the disease, given that the restrictions were not draconian from the start. And yet without time to adjust to a progressive loss of freedom, we wouldn’t have accepted it. We might have rebelled. Instead, we rallied, coming together as one — protecting each other’s health, even as we could no longer socialize.
> 
> A warning from Italians to Americans: Be prepared for what coronavirus will bring
> Italians recovering from the coronavirus and protecting themselves tell The Washington Post what life is like in quarantine. (Video: Alice Li, Zoeann Murphy/Photo: Nicola Fossella/EPA-EFE/Shutterstock/The Washington Post)
> Living under these conditions is difficult to describe. We can only leave the house out of medical necessity or to get food. We can go on short walks but not in groups. We can’t hug, kiss or shake hands with anyone outside of our family. We must stay at least four feet from everyone else, at all times.
> 
> My family tries to maintain a routine: In the mornings, I home-school our four children, who range from kindergarten to eighth grade, while my husband teleworks. My eldest son’s school was the best prepared for distance learning and began remote lessons from the first week of the lockdown. He gets live lessons, homework, regular interaction with his teachers — and just as importantly, regular interaction with friends, which lessens his sense of isolation. It’s great, really, but it also requires a dedicated laptop and bandwidth from 8:10 a.m. to 2:45 p.m. daily, limiting what everyone else can do online. My other children’s schools, which shut down at the same time, have only started distance learning this week.
> 
> In the afternoon, my husband and I both work as best we can, while the children keep themselves busy. With guitars we had on hand and a drum set they built from scratch, they’re putting together a garage band. (Literally — they have to stay in the garage and can’t practice or perform anywhere else.) For the first time in my life, I’ve come to think that having four children sometimes can be less work than having one or two: They can entertain each other.
> 
> Counterintuitively, the days somehow end incredibly fast. We are always doing something: organizing lessons, fighting with a malfunctioning printer or about our overloaded WiFi, tutoring each child one-on-one, getting the kids outside, feeding them, drinking coffee, repeat. When, after two or three days, we can’t take the confinement anymore, one of us makes a run to the grocery store to buy fruits and vegetables and whatever else we need. (The stores, at least, are well stocked.) We go out by bike to get some exercise. That, too, is a challenge, because we are always tired.
> 
> My mother and sisters, my little niece, my aunt, and cousins live in Lombardy, the region worst affected by the pandemic. If my mother, who is 81 (or almost 81, as she would point out) catches this virus, she will probably die. I speak to and text them frequently, but I don’t know when, or if, I will be able to see them. It’s bizarre: Everyone is going through the same emotions — fear, anger, exhaustion — no matter where we live or what we do. We don’t need many words to know how the other person feels. We end every call with “Forza!” We must keep going.
> 
> Yes, most people who become ill will survive. Yes, people younger than 45 will probably be fine. But right now, doctors across Northern Italy have to choose between who gets the respirator and lives, and who does not and dies. Italy’s health system, for all its shortcomings — the long waits for certain tests, some aging buildings, the sometimes crowded hospital wards — is among the best-performing in the Western world. A 2017 report by the World Health Organization, for example, reported that Italian health care has among the lowest mortality rates in Europe and a strong acute-care sector. And yet this virus has overwhelmed the health system of one of the richest areas of the European Union.
> 
> Statistics change daily, as the hospitals scramble to build capacity. On Thursday, there were only 737 intensive-care beds open for new coronavirus patients in Lombardy; the region is home to 10 million people, and as of this writing, 16,220 people have tested positive for the disease there. Depending on how many coronavirus patients go into or out of the hospitals each day, if you have a chronic condition or a heart attack or are in a car crash, you might not be able to access care.
> 
> Writing this from Italy, I am also writing to you from your own future. From our state of emergency, we have been watching the crisis unfold in the United States with a terrible sense of foreboding. Please stop waiting for others to tell you what to do; stop blaming the government for doing too much or too little. We all have actions we can take to slow the spread of the disease — and ensuring that your own household has enough canned goods and cleaning supplies is not enough. You can do a lot more. You should do a lot more. Stay away from restaurants, gyms, libraries, movie theaters, bars and cafes, yes. But also: Don’t invite people over for dinner, don’t let your kids go on playdates, don’t take them to the playground, don’t let your teenagers out of your sight. They will sneak out with their friends, they will hold hands, they will share their drinks and food. If this seems too much, consider the following: We are not allowed to hold weddings or funerals. We can’t gather to bury our dead.
> 
> For us, it might be too late to avoid an incredible loss of life. But if you decide against taking actions because it seems inconvenient, or because you don’t want to look silly, you can’t say you weren’t warned.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> An interesting note from a possible if not probable future:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/17/hello-italy-your-future-is-grimmer-than-you-think/


A bit more detail, from family of mine in Italy ....

Stay at home means stay at home - only one person per household may leave the house every 3 days for groceries or to/from the drugstore.
Mother/father/relatives in town?  You don't see them.  If they need something that only you can bring, you go and you leave.
Boyfriend/girlfriend live 20 km away?  You don't see them.
Loved one dies?  No funeral - into the coffin & straight to the graveyard (if it's still operating) with only immediate relatives.
Break the rules?  Fine + criminal record
All this in a country that, as part of its culture, often sees rules as suggestions.  People are doing this right now.  Spain's likely pretty close to the same.

If you don't like doing what needs to be done voluntarily, you'll like it even less if you're _compelled_ to do it or else.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> Illegals crossing at Roxham road is still permitted though, they'll be placed in 14-day isolation, somewhere, on the tax payers dime.



If by 'permitted' you mean 'they're all arrested and screened', then yes. Given that we have an utterly indefensible land border, if they were to try to 'close' Roxham, the asylum seekers would jsut move a few km down the line and start crossing elsewhere. Roxham at least has the necessary infrastructure and logistics to handle them all, get them all IDed, searched, run for criminal records or wants or other grounds for immediate inadmissibility, and they can do health screenings.  You cannot stop the flow of a creek by dropping a boulder in it. The creek just alters its path slightly around it. If we change the laws around Safe Third Country, that will have an effect. In the meantime, by all means, come up with a system to quarantine every single one of them for the required amount of time- but the calls to somehow 'close' the illegal border crossing at Roxham are not aligned with reality.


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results
> 
> Maybe some good news.



And a connecting story.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-lab-Sanofi-hypothetically-offers-millions-of-doses-of-potential-Covid-19-Plaquenil-anti-malaria-drug


> French lab offers ‘millions of doses’ of Covid-19 drug
> 
> A French medical laboratory has said it is ready to give the French authorities “millions of doses” of an anti-malaria medication that early tests have suggested may help cure Covid-19.
> 
> French manufacturer Sanofi has said it could hypothetically offer enough doses of Plaquenil - a drug containing the molecule hydroxychloroquine - to treat up to 300,000 people if necessary.
> 
> Chloroquine is normally used mainly to prevent and treat malaria, and also to treat auto-immune conditions such as Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.
> 
> In China, ongoing Covid-19 clinical trials have successfully used chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine to treat coronavirus patients.
> 
> In France, renowned research professor Didier Raoult - who had been tasked by the French government to research possible treatments of Covid-19 - this week posted a video detailing “promising” results of a chloroquine trial of 24 Covid-19 patients in France.
> 
> . . .



And this may be a good example of too much information being available to too many stupid people.  I use "stupid people" not in reference to any on this forum, but I did come across some social media chatter in reference to Elon Musk making a pronouncement that Chloroquine may be the immediate solution (since it cured him when he had malaria).

Yes, there "may" be some promising developments with regard to chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine as a potential treatment for Covid-19, but before you start rushing out to your nearest travel medicine clinic to get a prescription for this particular anti-malarial, take a look at some of the numbers.  In the article (linked by Hamish) that described Raoult's research it mentioned that the regime he used for the 24 patients was "600mcg per day for 10 days".  I suspect that "mcg" (microgram - one thousandth of a milligram) is a typo or other error on the part of the author since I quickly went through the video of Professor Raoult's presentation and to my not-recently-used aural comprehension of French, I think it is meant to be "milligram".  The majority of us on these means who have used anti-malarials in the past (some even, like me decades ago, have used chloroquine) are probably more familiar with taking it once or twice a week as a prophylactic.   At 600 mgm per day that that would be three times the recommended daily dosage when hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil - see monograph) is used in the treatment of RA or Lupus.  The monograph also lists the numerous contraindications and potential side effects of the drug.  While it may be a start into research of something to fight this disease, it is probably many months (year?) away from being put into a doctor's tool-kit.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.



That'll be a straightforward grievance.


----------



## mariomike

> Maybe some good news.



And, if that doesn't cure what ails you,



> Televangelist Jim Bakker tries to profit amid coronavirus pandemic. He won't be alone.
> https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/tony-messenger/messenger-televangelist-jim-bakker-tries-to-profit-amid-coronavirus-pandemic/article_767ebf0f-54f4-5aa9-90d3-80f1bfdd7428.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

Well done ...


> Ordinarily, Geoff Dillon spends his days making vodka, gin, absinthe and other spirits at his small batch distillery in Beamsville, Ont. But these days, he's making something else — hand sanitizer.
> 
> The owner of Dillon's Small Batch Distillers has been using alcohol and store-bought aloe to make free hand sanitizer for local police, hospitals, long-term care homes and municipalities during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> Dillon's isn't the only distillery stepping up during this crisis. Distillers across Canada and the United States, including Limited Distilling in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ont., Spirit of York Distillery and Reid's Distillery (both in Toronto), are also making hand sanitizer.
> 
> Dillon started Friday, and by Wednesday morning, will have distributed 3,000 bottles to police officers, front-line health-care workers, Meals on Wheels and Hamilton paramedics, among others.
> 
> Now, he's out of aloe, and he's providing bottles of 65 per cent alcohol, which works as a disinfectant. Dillon tweeted about its availability Tuesday afternoon, and now he's drowning in hundreds of emails and "a table full of Post-it notes." ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A bit more detail, from family of mine in Italy ....
> 
> Stay at home means stay at home - only one person per household may leave the house every 3 days for groceries or to/from the drugstore.
> Mother/father/relatives in town?  You don't see them.  If they need something that only you can bring, you go and you leave.
> Boyfriend/girlfriend live 20 km away?  You don't see them.
> Loved one dies?  No funeral - into the coffin & straight to the graveyard (if it's still operating) with only immediate relatives.
> Break the rules?  Fine + criminal record
> All this in a country that, as part of its culture, often sees rules as suggestions.  People are doing this right now.  Spain's likely pretty close to the same.
> 
> If you don't like doing what needs to be done voluntarily, you'll like it even less if you're _compelled_ to do it or else.



We used to do that in Northern Ireland, locking down thousands of people  (for obvious reasons) from time to time. 

The one thing that astonished me at the time was that the costs on the 'regulator's end' are enormous, just in time, money and other resources, if for no other reason. 

Properly training and preparing a military to interact effectively with it's own citizens in a martial law type setting is entirely another thing and, should we go to that level, will incur other kinds of (very undesirable) costs if we don't get it right.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well done ...



Guess I may have to open my Elderberry Gin when I get home from work to toast them....it's a cool place.


----------



## mariomike

Kilted said:
			
		

> I am with St. John Ambulance in a Medical First Response unit and we have been in communication with the Province since January. We are at this point just waiting for direction from the province to become involved.
> 
> During SARS we were used to transport patents and even responded to some 911 calls because the higher levels of EMS were overwhelmed.



Probably depends which province. And, which municipality.

In the municipality where I live ( and used to work ), non-emergency, inter-facility transfers are done by private transfer services. Not the municipality. 

Even at the height of SARS, in our municipality, only police officers, firefighters and paramedics were dispatched to 9-1-1 calls.

They put us on Working Quarantine ( WQ ), rather than let others do our job.

I expect they will do likewise this time also.

But, this is a whole new ballgame, so who knows what the future holds?


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A bit more detail, from family of mine in Italy ....
> 
> Stay at home means stay at home - only one person per household may leave the house every 3 days for groceries or to/from the drugstore.
> Mother/father/relatives in town?  You don't see them.  If they need something that only you can bring, you go and you leave.
> Boyfriend/girlfriend live 20 km away?  You don't see them.
> Loved one dies?  No funeral - into the coffin & straight to the graveyard (if it's still operating) with only immediate relatives.
> Break the rules?  Fine + criminal record
> All this in a country that, as part of its culture, often sees rules as suggestions.  People are doing this right now.  Spain's likely pretty close to the same.
> 
> If you don't like doing what needs to be done voluntarily, you'll like it even less if you're _compelled_ to do it or else.



Why is Italy being hit so hard?


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why is Italy being hit so hard?



Older population.  And northern Italy is very polluted crating plenty of underlying conditions.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why is Italy being hit so hard?



Here you go... https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-coronavirus-hit-italy-so-hard/


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why is Italy being hit so hard?



Also because in the western world they took the first big hit. The rest of us have been able to watch what's happening there and avail ourselves of the very fast analysis and research being done. They didn't have that opportunity.


----------



## mariomike

"...young Italians tend to interact a lot with their elders."

That is true, and a wonderful thing. Especially when the old people get sick. Unfortunately, in this case, the consequences have been dire.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Russia deploying coronavirus disinformation to sow panic in West, EU document says*
> 
> 
> Russian media have deployed a “significant disinformation campaign” against the West to worsen the impact of the coronavirus, generate panic and sow distrust, according to a European Union document seen by Reuters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _FILE PHOTO: Fake blood is seen in test tubes labelled with the coronavirus (COVID-19) in this illustration taken March 17, 2020. REUTERS/Dado Ruvic/Illustration_
> 
> 
> The Kremlin denied the allegations on Wednesday, saying they were unfounded and lacked common sense.
> 
> The EU document said the Russian campaign, pushing fake news online in English, Spanish, Italian, German and French, uses contradictory, confusing and malicious reports to make it harder for the EU to communicate its response to the pandemic.
> 
> “A significant disinformation campaign by Russian state media and pro-Kremlin outlets regarding COVID-19 is ongoing,” said the nine-page internal document, dated March 16, using the name of the disease that can be caused by the coronavirus.
> 
> “The overarching aim of Kremlin disinformation is to aggravate the public health crisis in Western countries...in line with the Kremlin’s broader strategy of attempting to subvert European societies,” the document produced by the EU’s foreign policy arm, the European External Action Service, said.
> 
> An EU database has recorded almost 80 cases of disinformation about coronavirus since Jan. 22, it said, noting Russian efforts to amplify Iranian accusations online, cited without evidence, that coronavirus was a U.S. biological weapon.
> 
> Most scientists believe the disease originated in bats in China before passing to humans.
> 
> Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov pointed to what he said was the lack in the EU document of a specific example or link to a specific media outlet.
> 
> “We’re talking again about some unfounded allegations which in the current situation are probably the result of an anti-Russian obsession,” said Peskov.
> 
> The EU document cited examples from Lithuania to Ukraine, including false claims that a U.S. soldier deployed to Lithuania was infected and hospitalized. It said that on social media, Russian state-funded, Spanish-language RT Spanish was the 12th most popular news source on coronavirus between January and mid-March, based on the amount of news shared on social media.
> 
> The EEAS declined to comment directly on the report.
> 
> The European Commission said it was in contact with Google (GOOGL.O), Facebook (FB.O), Twitter (TWTR.N) and Microsoft (MSFT.O). An EU spokesman accused Moscow of “playing with people’s lives” and appealed to EU citizens to “be very careful” and only use news sources they trust.
> 
> 
> *“HUMAN CREATION”*
> 
> The EU and NATO have previously accused Russia of covert action, including disinformation, to try to destabilize the West by exploiting divisions in society.
> 
> Russia denies any such tactics and President Vladimir Putin has accused foreign foes of targeting Russia by spreading fake news about coronavirus to whip up panic.
> 
> Russian media in Europe have not been successful in reaching the broader public, but provide a platform for anti-EU populists and polarize debate, analysis by EU and non-governmental groups has shown.
> 
> The EEAS report cited riots at the end of February in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic now seeking to join the EU and NATO, as an example of the consequences of such disinformation.
> 
> It said a fake letter purporting to be from the Ukrainian health ministry falsely stated here were five coronavirus cases in the country. Ukrainian authorities say the letter was created outside Ukraine, the EU report said.
> 
> “Pro-Kremlin disinformation messages advance a narrative that coronavirus is a human creation, weaponized by the West,” said the report, first cited by the Financial Times.
> 
> It quoted fake news created by Russia in Italy - which is suffering the world’s second most deadly outbreak of coronavirus - alleging that the 27-nation EU was unable to effectively deal with the pandemic, despite a series of collective measures taken by governments in recent days.
> 
> The EEAS has also shared information with Slovakia over the spread of fake news accusing the country’s prime minister, Peter Pellegrini, of being infected with the virus and saying he may have passed on the infection to others at recent summits.
> 
> EU leaders have been conferring by videoconferences since early March.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-disinformation/russia-deploying-coronavirus-disinformation-to-sow-panic-in-west-eu-document-says-idUSKBN21518F


----------



## medicineman

This is not surprising to me at all actually...

On another note, here is a good overview about COVID19 from ZDoggMD - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35rA34wv_A

MM


----------



## Remius

Maple Resolve has been cancelled.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I wonder if we'll see the reserves ordered into uniform if things go even more pear shaped. 

And speaking of being in uniform I wonder if VRs and other types of releases will be put on hold.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.


This is news to me. Most people are at home with DVPNI access. Link or summary please.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

Yes I’d also like to see the link. All I’ve heard were rumours. 90% of the CAF is working from home on their cell or civie emails. It’s challenging for sure!


----------



## dapaterson

Murray Brewster has a pretty good summary: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vance-covid-19-coronavirus-canadian-forces-soldiers-1.5500774


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder if we'll see the reserves ordered into uniform if things go even more pear shaped.



When is the last time that happened? World War 2?


----------



## MilEME09

mariomike said:
			
		

> When is the last time that happened? World War 2?



This would need to go really pear shaped, and involve the emergency act. At this stage I see no indication of that yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> When is the last time that happened? World War 2?



Nope. Reservists/ militiamen weren't 'ordered' to do anything like that, AFAIK. 

Conscripts were, of course, but they then had to volunteer for overseas service, which meant the majority stayed in Canada as the infamous 'Zombies'.

(And this is the point where someone jumps in and corrects me  ).


----------



## BeyondTheNow

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:
			
		

> This is news to me. Most people are at home with DVPNI access. Link or summary please.



Sum-up of orders from my CoC. I haven’t seen the original release yet. I’m in Ontario. I have friends posted to various units in other provinces who’ve been given the same orders. 

I also received a personal call from my Sgt reiterating the usual and to limit social interaction as much as possible. Nothing specific has been mentioned regarding leave or anything though beyond what was ordered earlier.


----------



## Remius

Seems prudent. Stay off busses and trains if travelling over 250k. You could get stranded and if you get called in you are only a few hours away. 

Not sure why people would freak out over this.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder if we'll see the reserves ordered into uniform if things go even more pear shaped.
> 
> And speaking of being in uniform I wonder if VRs and other types of releases will be put on hold.



What would the reserve mbr's really do?  The big thing needed will be medical related unless there is mass rioting or something which so far I haven't seen even in Europe.


----------



## Weinie

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home. _* It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.*_  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.



If you are referring to FragO 002 there is no such statement in it as I have highlighted above. 
It directs all Reg F, Cl B/C pers based in Canada to return from international travel as expeditiously as possible, and to coord, with their units, 14 days of self-isolation.
HHT's are cancelled for three weeks
Cl A reservists are "strongly encouraged" to abstain from personal travel outside of Canada
The 250 km restriction can be waived where it is deemed to be mission essential, necessary for medical or compassionate reasons, or warranted due to extreme hardship


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What would the reserve mbr's really do?  The big thing needed will be medical related unless there is mass rioting or something which so far I haven't seen even in Europe.



If and a big if we get into a shutter in place they could be used to enforce that.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Remius said:
			
		

> Seems prudent. Stay off busses and trains if travelling over 250k. You could get stranded and if you get called in you are only a few hours away.
> 
> Not sure why people would freak out over this.



Yes, reasonable for me. However, I’m in a very populated area with everything I need at all times in close proximity. I have no reason to need to travel further. A couple of bases come to mind that are way out of the way from major cities.


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> If and a big if we get into a shutter shelter in place they could be used to enforce that.



Not going to happen. More likely used to conduct welfare checks in rural areas after virus has spread significantly and people have taken social distancing to the extreme, not leaving their residences.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> Not going to happen. More likely used to conduct welfare checks in rural areas after virus has spread significantly and people have taken social distancing to the extreme, not leaving their residences.



Hence the big if.  

Agreed.


----------



## Ostrozac

Remius said:
			
		

> Seems prudent. Stay off busses and trains if travelling over 250k. You could get stranded and if you get called in you are only a few hours away.



I note that the institutional war against the POMV doesn't seem to have survived first contact with this crisis. So much for that one. I wonder if they'll still be charging for parking for the duration of the crisis. 

On a more serious note, it certainly sounds 'off' to me to not be simply cancelling all leave (less Sick Leave). Telling people to shelter in their homes/barracks and to remain close to their place of duties, but still counting those days as Annual Leave doesn't quite sound 'proper' to me.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius]
Not sure why people would freak out over this.
[/quote]
Because we have a lot of entitled members.

[quote author=stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What would the reserve mbr's really do?  The big thing needed will be medical related unless there is mass rioting or something which so far I haven't seen even in Europe.



I'd argue Europe is more resilient than North America and we're more materialistic and prone to panic. Everything seems calm for the most part now. Then again we're in what, week 1 of this really hitting the fan at home?

What would the reserves do? I'm not sure. If it's deemed they should do something I'd be curious to see if they could.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I note that the institutional war against the POMV doesn't seem to have survived first contact with this crisis. So much for that one. I wonder if they'll still be charging for parking for the duration of the crisis.
> 
> On a more serious note, it certainly sounds 'off' to me to not be simply cancelling all leave (less Sick Leave). Telling people to shelter in their homes/barracks and to remain close to their place of duties, but still counting those days as Annual Leave doesn't quite sound 'proper' to me.



Mbrs can't accumulate leave unless all their annual leave is used up (4.1.06)*. They also can't accumulate it unless it's for imperative military requirements (4.1.02) 

I'm not a leave hound but if members are actually being told to stay within X distance from home IOT to be ready to be called back then that's not exactly annual leave in the spirit of vacation. Being told to stick around home sounds like an imperative military reason too.


*https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/leave-policy-manual.html#chap4


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Sum-up of orders from my CoC. I haven’t seen the original release yet. I’m in Ontario. I have friends posted to various units in other provinces who’ve been given the same orders.
> 
> I also received a personal call from my Sgt reiterating the usual and to limit social interaction as much as possible. Nothing specific has been mentioned regarding leave or anything though beyond what was ordered earlier.


Thank you. Doesn't affect me. Didn't know another FRAG O came out, I'll look at it tomorrow.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... we're in what, week 1 of this really hitting the fan at home? ...


Great point to bring up.

IF China's stats are to be believed, some reports say they're down to one new case a day in some areas -- this after a lockdown since, say, early December, with drones flying around with speakers giving people hell if they were on the street.


----------



## garb811

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Sum-up of orders from my CoC. I haven’t seen the original release yet. I’m in Ontario. I have friends posted to various units in other provinces who’ve been given the same orders.
> 
> I also received a personal call from my Sgt reiterating the usual and to limit social interaction as much as possible. Nothing specific has been mentioned regarding leave or anything though beyond what was ordered earlier.


Points of clarification from what BtN posted WRT travel. Source is the actual CDS directive.

The restriction on the use of planes, trains, buses and all the other modes of public transportation for personal leave is total. There is no waiver on less than 250 km. Apparently the essential folks in Ottawa can still use OC Transpo to get to and from work...what could go wrong with that plan?   :facepalm:

The approval of travel outside the 250 km is being held at the L1 level for mission essential, necessary medical or compassionate reasons or where warranted for extreme hardship. It's not a "should not", it's a "shall not".

People on leave outside the 250 km radius when the order was published are allowed to continue that leave.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.



It's mid-March.  People should have had a plan in place to either use, or accum Ann Lve days before this in any case.  The rules still apply;  if you are recalled from leave/ordered to return to your place of duty, you are no longer on leave etc.  

I've seen nothing from my Wing or Sqn stating you are confined to home.  I had previously-approved leave for some of the days I will be 'working from home' and on those days, I am effectively on leave.

Side note:  IF one of those days, something goes really sideways and I get a call to RFD and Location Y and Time X, I'm there.  I have far far more serious concerns at this point than losing a few days Ann Lve.  My wife manages and works in a small office building that has a high-traffic Doctors office in it.  My elderly parents live not far from me, but in a different province so I can't go there to help look after their needs.  People are getting sick, and people are and will be dying.  Canadians, and other innocent people around the world.

Getting 'ripped-off' a few days Ann Lve...just not something I have a GAFF for in the midst of 'current life' in Canada and the world.   :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Coronavirus Could Be The End Of China As A Global Manufacturing Hub

The new coronavirus Covid-19 will end up being the final curtain on China’s nearly 30 year role as the world’s leading manufacturer.

“Using China as a hub...that model died this week, I think,” says Vladimir Signorelli, head of Bretton Woods Research, a macro investment research firm.

China’s economy is getting hit much harder by the coronavirus outbreak than markets currently recognize. Wall Street appeared to be the last to realize this last week. The S&P 500 fell over 8%, the worst performing market of all the big coronavirus infected nations. Even Italy, which has over a thousand cases now, did better last week than the U.S.

China On Hold

On January 23, Beijing ordered the extension of the Lunar New Year holiday, postponing a return to work. The coronavirus was spreading fast in the epicenter province of Hubei and the last thing China wanted was for that to be repeated elsewhere. Travel restrictions and quarantines of nearly 60 million people drove business activity to a standstill.

The most frightening aspect of this crisis is not the short-term economic damage it is causing, but the potential long-lasting disruption to supply chains, Shehzad H. Qazi, the managing director of China Beige Book, wrote in Barron’s on Friday.

Chinese auto manufacturers and chemical plants have reported more closures than other sectors, Qazi wrote. IT workers have not returned to most firms as of last week. Shipping and logistics companies have reported higher closure rates than the national average. 

“The ripple effects of this severe disruption will be felt through the global auto parts, electronics, and pharmaceutical supply chains for months to come,” he wrote.

That China is losing its prowess as the only game in town for whatever widget one wants to make was already under way. It was moving at a panda bear’s pace, though, and mostly because companies were doing what they always do - search the world with the lowest costs of production. Maybe that meant labor costs. Maybe it meant regulations of some kind or another. They were already doing that as China moves up the ladder in terms of wages and environmental regulations.

Under President Trump, that slow moving panda moved a little faster. Companies didn’t like the uncertainty of tariffs. They sourced elsewhere. Their China partners moved to Vietnam, Bangladesh and throughout southeast Asia.

Enter the mysterious coronavirus, believed to have come from a species of bat in Wuhan, and anyone who wanted to wait out Trump is now forced to reconsider their decade long dependence on China. 

Retail pharmacies in parts of Europe reported that couldn’t get surgical masks because they’re all made in China. Can’t Albania make these things for you? Seems their labor costs are even lower than China’s, and they are closer.

The coronavirus is China’s swan song. There is no way it can be the low-cost, world manufacturer anymore. Those days are coming to an end. If Trump wins re-election, it will only speed up this process as companies will fear what happens if the phase two trade deal fails.

Picking a new country, or countries, is not easy. No country has the logistic set up like China has. Few big countries have the tax rates that China has. Brazil surely doesn’t. India does. But it has terrible logistics. 
Then came the newly signed U.S. Mexico Canada Agreement, signed by Trump into law last year. Mexico is the biggest beneficiary.

Yes. It is Mexico’s turn.

Mexico and the U.S. get a long. They are neighbors. Their president Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador wants to oversee a blue collar boom in his country. Trump would like to see that too, especially if it means less Central Americans coming into the U.S. and depressing wages for American blue collar workers. 

According to 160 executives who participated in Foley & Lardner LLP’s 2020 International Trade and Trends in Mexico survey, released on February 25, respondents from the manufacturing, automotive and technology sectors said they intended to move business to Mexico from other countries – and they plan on doing so within the next one to five years.

“Our survey shows that a large majority of executives are moving or have moved portions of their operations from another country to Mexico,” says Christopher Swift, Foley partner and litigator in the firm’s Government Enforcement Defense & Investigations Practice. 

Swift says the move is due to the trade war and the passing of the USMCA. 

The phase one China trade deal is a positive, but the coronavirus - while likely temporary — shows how an over-reliance on China is bad for business.

There will be fallout, likely in the form of foreign direct investment being redirected south of the Rio Grande.

“Our estimates of possible FDI to be redirected to Mexico from the U.S., China and Europe range from $12 billion to $19 billion a year,” says Sebastian Miralles, managing partner at Tempest Capital in Mexico City.

“After a ramp-up period, the multiplier effect of manufacturing FDI on GDP could lead Mexico to grow at a rate of 4.7% per year,” he says.

Mexico is the best positioned to take advantage of the long term geopolitical rift between the U.S. and China. It is the only low cost border country with a free trade deal with the United States, so there you have it.

Thanks to over 25 years of Nafta, Mexico has become a top exporter and producer of trucks, cars, electronics, televisions, and computers. Shipping a container from Mexico to New York takes five days. It takes 40 days from Shanghai.
They manufacture complex items like airplane engines and micro semiconductors. Mexico is the rank the 8th country in terms of engineering degrees.

Multinational companies are all there. General Electric is there. Boeing is there. Kia is there. 
The trade war is yet to be decided, but the damage that has already been done will not be undone. Room for a new key commercial ally is open. 

Safety remains a top issue for foreign businesses in Mexico who have to worry about kidnappings, drug cartels, and personal protection rackets. If Mexico was half as safe as China, it would be a boon for the economy. If it was as safe, Mexico would be the best country in Latin America.

“The repercussions of the trade war are already being felt in Mexico,” says Miralles. 

Mexico replaced China as the U.S. leading trading partner. China overtook Mexico only for a short while. 
According to Foley’s 19 page survey report, more than half of the companies that responded have manufacturing outside of the U.S. and 80% who do make in Mexico also have manufacturing elsewhere. Forty-one percent of those operating in Mexico are also in China. 

When respondents were asked about whether global trade tensions were causing them to move operations from another country to Mexico, two-thirds said they already had or were planning to do so within a few years. A quarter of those surveyed had already moved operations from another country to Mexico on account of the trade war. 

For those considering moving operations, 80% said they will do so within the next two years. They are “doubling down on Mexico”, according to Foley’s report.

Of the companies that recently moved their supply chain, or are planning to do so, some 64% of them said they are moving it to Mexico. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/03/01/coronavirus-could-be-the-end-of-china-as-global-manufacturing-hub/?fbclid=IwAR3gZkGby6JhIihvZN6VpsHNTthkzlsHn0U5j_sYy0T1M6AnklDDZW9L6qI#151a432b5298


----------



## tomahawk6

The USNS Comfort is being sent to New York harbor.

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/cuomo-navy-ship-usns-comfort-to-assist-in-new-york-s-coronavirus-crisis-80920133713


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them.


There is nothing in that order ordering people to stay in their homes on leave. There is also nothing in the order stating there shall be no accumulation of leave, that is, as always, on a case by case basis for people actually recalled onto duty as opposed to being told to take their leave near home.

There are a couple categories of people who are being ordered to either fully self-isolate or self-isolate as much as possible, none of those categories are directly related to doing that on leave unless you're returned from an international vacation and are still on leave when you get back.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I don’t know if this is here or there, but a point I forgot to add regarding leave in my earlier post...

I needed to use up annuals and had them planned for March break (week of 16-20 MAR in Ontario.) My pass was processed and came back down a while ago. I received orders to remain home Fri 13 Mar 20 @ approx 1630 to my personal email. At no point has it been said that my leave has been taken away/cancelled/recalled/whathaveyou. As far as I’m aware, those annuals scheduled to be used this week are being processed as normal, regardless of current circumstances. (It doesn’t really bother me, as any plans I had had been cancelled by me anyway—as mentioned in a previous post—due to completely separate issues before any of these COVID orders started coming down. I would’ve just been chilling around home anyway...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Stockpiling masks and gloves at home = bad, new advice for people caring for someone infected with the virus, "use mask and gloves only once per interaction"  :  You got love experts.......


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

If you are on annual leave, I don't think the CDS order is relevant to what you can or cannot do as a result of civilian authorities imposed restrictions (including the Federal government). Once you leave is over, then and only then are you covered by the CDS's order.

As an example, your annual leave would remain your annual leave if you're stuck at home because your cruise was cancelled as a result t of the ship catching fire the night before your cruise, regardless of any order from the CDS. This is no different: you elected to take your annual leave at this time and the civilian authorities/world circumstances limited what you could do during that time. It's unfortunate but as the kids say: "it is what it is".


----------



## stellarpanther

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It's mid-March.  People should have had a plan in place to either use, or accum Ann Lve days before this in any case.  The rules still apply;  if you are recalled from leave/ordered to return to your place of duty, you are no longer on leave etc.


Deciding a couple of months in advance to take leave at the end of March is a plan. I'm not sure if your Reg or Res but a lot of Reg Force mbr's take leave at the end of March and extend it to April.


----------



## stellarpanther

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> If you are on annual leave, I don't think the CDS order is relevant to what you can or cannot do as a result of civilian authorities imposed restrictions (including the Federal government). Once you leave is over, then and only then are you covered by the CDS's order.
> 
> As an example, your annual leave would remain your annual leave if you're stuck at home because your cruise was cancelled as a result t of the ship catching fire the night before your cruise, regardless of any order from the CDS. This is no different: you elected to take your annual leave at this time and the civilian authorities/world circumstances limited what you could do during that time. It's unfortunate but as the kids say: "it is what it is".



I understand what you are saying but the civilian authorities are not preventing me from travelling by PMV during annual leave, the CDS order is.  Although the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if we have martial law by the end of the week.


----------



## ballz

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying but the civilian authorities are not preventing me from travelling by PMV during annual leave, the CDS order is.  Although the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if we have martial law by the end of the week.



Travel restrictions are not unusual, for example if you are part of one of the many standing readiness tasks such as NEO, IRU, etc. While it's an interesting thought experiment to challenge it and really see what is written in policy / interpreted, on 8 hrs NTM and not allowed to leave the local area, one can also be on annual leave, I'm not sure a 250km radius during this crisis the right time/place to challenge it.

Also, it'd the CDS's order and he's the final authority on grievances so unless someone is planning to take it to judicial review.... plus I hope he's got some pretty switched on legal advisors surrounding him on what legal authority he has for these kind of orders.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying but the civilian authorities are not preventing me from travelling by PMV during annual leave, the CDS order is.  Although the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if we have martial law by the end of the week.


Also, the CDS isn't telling you that you can't travel by PMV, he's just telling you how far you can drive.  As Ballz has stated this is nothing unusual, there was a blanket geographical restriction during Y2K even though the vast majority of the CAF was on block leave.


----------



## MilEME09

Here you all can have a laugh, this is fake


----------



## stellarpanther

garb811 said:
			
		

> Also, the CDS isn't telling you that you can't travel by PMV, he's just telling you how far you can drive.  As Ballz has stated this is nothing unusual, there was a blanket geographical restriction during Y2K even though the vast majority of the CAF was on block leave.


I joined after y2K but I have never heard of restrictions on driving a certain distance or travelling when on annual leave.   I know some units have specific policies as to how far they can go on weekends but not when taking annual leave.


----------



## stellarpanther

Eagle Eye View said:
			
		

> Yes I’d also like to see the link. All I’ve heard were rumours. 90% of the CAF is working from home on their cell or civie emails. It’s challenging for sure!


Maybe that's the case for Officers but I can tell you that most Jr NCM and several Sgt's and up are basically sitting at home for the next couple weeks.  I'm talking about trades such as Supply, MSE, HRA, FSA and others.  I personally know several HRA's, FSA's and Supply Techs that have been told to say home and only a few will come in to make sure Pay gets taken care of or come in for emergencies.


----------



## Haggis

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Here you all can have a laugh, this is fake



Not any more.  It's out on the Internet so it has to be true. #leanforward


----------



## SupersonicMax

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I joined after y2K but I have never heard of restrictions on driving a certain distance or travelling when on annual leave.   I know some units have specific policies as to how far they can go on weekends but not when taking annual leave.



Dude, get over yourself.  This is not like anything we, most generations in the CAF, have seen before.  CDS can impose whatever restrictions he wants to protect the force.


----------



## stellarpanther

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Dude, get over yourself.  This is not like anything we, most generations in the CAF, have seen before.  CDS can impose whatever restrictions he wants to protect the force.


I'm entitled to have whatever opinion I want... and who's saying anything about whether the CDS can or can't impose restrictions, of course he can?  As far as I know this is an internet form in which we can ask questions and give our opinions.  I'm not at work where I need to get my opinions to myself.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Deciding a couple of months in advance to take leave at the end of March is a plan. I'm not sure if your Reg or Res but a lot of Reg Force mbr's take leave at the end of March and extend it to April.



Reg.  I'm "on leave" this Friday so not 'working from home' IAW direction from my higher.  I know lots of full timers take leave end-Mar;  I also think it isn't relevant to this situation.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Coronavirus Could Be The End Of China As A Global Manufacturing Hub
> 
> The new coronavirus Covid-19 will end up being the final curtain on China’s nearly 30 year role as the world’s leading manufacturer.
> 
> “Using China as a hub...that model died this week, I think,” says Vladimir Signorelli, head of Bretton Woods Research, a macro investment research firm.
> 
> China’s economy is getting hit much harder by the coronavirus outbreak than markets currently recognize. Wall Street appeared to be the last to realize this last week. The S&P 500 fell over 8%, the worst performing market of all the big coronavirus infected nations. Even Italy, which has over a thousand cases now, did better last week than the U.S.
> 
> China On Hold



Yes been following this blog for quite some time, the "Great unwinding" was already picking up steam; https://www.chinalawblog.com/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:
			
		

> Maple Resolve has been cancelled.



From: "The Mess tent"  Maple Resolve back on, but in CRBN gear........  ;D


----------



## Weinie

stellarpanther,

Over the last several days, you have:

Kvetched about Class A pay for your son


			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Sorry if this was already mentioned but I went back a bit and didn't see anything.  My son who is a class A Reservist received an email from his CoC letting them know that they are not to come in at least until 30 Mar 2020.  It also stated that they won't be paid for those missed nights.  This is ridiculous and my guess is it will piss off a lot of those mbr's and rightly so.  It's one thing not get paid if you chose not to show up but to have them make the decision to stand them all down and then not pay them is BS.  A lot of those mbr's are students and depend on this money.  The Federal and Provincial governments are asking employers to try to still pay their employees while closed and then the CAF pulls this crap.  I'm sure they still except them to be ready to respond if there is a national emergency.  It's unbelievable to me.



Shown little knowledge of how the CAF is constituted 



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand how class A works however, the optics don't look good when the government is asking civilian employers to try to still pay their hourly workers for missed time due to closures but won't do it themselves.  *Why should it be different?*





			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> No one is worried about anything... I (not him) think it is ridiculous not to pay Class A workers *when the CAF is preventing them from working.*



Wrongly imputed CDS direction



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm assuming people have seen the new order released today from the CDS stating amongst other things that mbr's are restricted from travelling more than 250km. There is also something in there about confining yourself to your home.  *It also states that there will be no leave accumulation or cash out except on a case by case basis.*  How does telling a mbr to stay in their home and being on annual leave go together?  *That is not the intent of annual leave and those who had approved leave passes during this time are basically having their leave taken away from them*.



Jumped into fantasy land



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What would the reserve mbr's really do?  The big thing needed will be medical related *unless there is mass rioting or something* which so far I haven't seen even in Europe.



Jumped even further into fantasy land



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying but the civilian authorities are not preventing me from travelling by PMV during annual leave, the CDS order is.  *Although the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if we have martial law by the end of the week.*



Misunderstood the rationale for the concepts of "protect the Force" and "critical services"



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Maybe that's the case for Officers but I can tell you that most* Jr NCM and several Sgt's and up are basically sitting at home for the next couple weeks. * I'm talking about trades such as Supply, MSE, HRA, FSA and others.  *I personally know several HRA's, FSA's and Supply Techs that have been told to say home and only a few will come in to make sure Pay gets taken care of or come in for emergencies.*



Lashed out at those whose "opinions" don't match your "opinion



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> *I'm entitled to have whatever opinion I want*... and who's saying anything about whether the CDS can or can't impose restrictions, of course he can?  As far as I know this is an internet form in which we can ask questions and give our opinions.  I'm not at work where I need to get my opinions to myself.



Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The complex nature of the implications of covid19, coupled with the rumour mill, speculation, misinformation, and disinformation, enabled through the ubiquity of the information environment means that "truthiness' has to be stomped on and stamped out, and quickly. Do not be offended if folks here challenge what you say, my earlier years (and sometimes recent postings) on this forum were characterized by swift and sometimes cutting rebuttals of what I offered as opinion. There are some very wise and knowledgeable folks on here, and they mostly strive to inform. 

Sorry about how this appears on here, not very adept at inserting multiple quotes


----------



## Jarnhamar

For the amount of freebie days off or times I went home early over the years I can't ethically say shit about losing 5 days of leave, and that's on a normal day. I've also given a lot of freebies. 

Not being allowed to travel more than 250 km on leave during a pandemic where *everyone* should be sitting at home marking time? Nothing to complain about.

There's the policy in the leave manual but this is unique situation. At the end of the day the military needs to be ready to launch into action and get shit done. 

Problem is we have people that make a big deal about giving their boss/work their civilian email address/personal cell number or take this mentality that if they're on leave they're going to hide from being contacted until they're done leave. We're not accountants or mcdonalds workers.

It's a cultural problem where we see ourselves like a 9-5 civilian job and not defenders of our country and citizens.


----------



## Journeyman

After a couple pages of 'clarifications' (of what I thought was pretty straight-forward directions) … how are the non-Milnet.ca troops coping?

And NO, I'm not suggesting the entire CAF join up     
(we already have a few people who should be self-isolated to reddit/CAF)!!


(ps - now that people are catching on about personal hygiene/hand-washing, let's work on shoulder checks/turn signals next)  :nod:


----------



## Weinie

Infanteer,

Thanks for the help cleaning up my format challenged post.


----------



## stellarpanther

What I will say whether I'm right or wrong about some of my posts is that my experience has/been with how things have been done working in Ottawa for almost my entire career.  While I don't really know specifics of how they operate, I know many bases, especially places like Edmonton, Petawawa, Gagetown and I'm sure others do, do things different.  A lot of mbr's in Ottawa including me are treated and operate as if they are civilians.  They mostly work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600 and when they are discovered staying late they are told not to.  At least for the Jr. NCM's.  That is a fact. I'm not saying all but I am saying a lot, so for people like me that have had that type of career, stop flipping out about certain posts I make. When I say things that are fact, it is fact from what it is like around me.  Most of the Jr NCM's are not working while at home, so I don't know where this 90 percent of the CAF is working via cell or personal email comes from.  I've also heard from a couple MCpl's in Borden and 1 guy in Edmonton who are not working.
I've never been accused of it before but I must have bad writing skills because most of what I do is ask questions around here and sometimes give opinions which we are all entitled to do.  It doesn't mean people need to agree with them but they shouldn't get attacked for them.  I think I now understand why so many people just read on sites like this instead of contributing.  Sorry this post isn't more organized but I'm a little pissed off.


----------



## dapaterson

Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID-19: results of an openlabel non-randomized clinical trial 

TL;DR: Good outcomes in treating COVID-19 patients with chloroquine and, when indicated, azithromycin.  


https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> And speaking of being in uniform I wonder if VRs and other types of releases will be put on hold.



With the economic uncertainty ( job security ) ahead, I would think any member of the Regular Force considering a VR at this time might be having second thoughts. 

I also think there will be no shortage of Regular Force applicants, if the layoffs continue.


----------



## NavyShooter

I'm now a Class A Reservist.  I could be of the opinion that the CAF doesn't own my time unless they're willing to pay me for it...so if they're telling me to self-isolate, they'd best put me on paid time to do so...but I'm not like that, and after 26 years in the Regs before I jumped ship to the PRes, I don't know how to be like that.

My day job has sent me to work from home with a 1/8 rotation for physically reporting to my place of work to conduct critical inspections of materiel for HPRs for deployed units.  I have no problem with that - it's a prudent measure to increase social distance, while maintaining support for fleet operations.  

In the 'spare time' that I have been dealing with 'stuff' for my Reserve unit.  If I was to track the hours spent, the messages, the emails, the texts, the phone calls...well, in truth, I don't know how not to do that stuff whether I'm on 'paid time' or not.  It needs to be done, so it gets done.

That work means that if things do get to a "OMFGTWIFA" (The World Is Falling Apart) the troops in my company will know how to get in touch with me and the other company leadership, they'll know roughly what the situation is (and for Pte(B) and Pte(R) - they're getting more info than they probably need - but improving their SA is a good thing.) 

If or when the time comes that I have to deal with a call-out - my troops, because of their level of training, are the least likely to be asked to contribute to anything beyond a supervised work party - and I'm pretty sure I know who the supervisor will be.  

I'm not going to argue about annual leave accumulation.  I'm not going to worry about being told to stay within 250km of my home and not take the bus or train.  All of that MAKES BLOODY SENSE CONSIDERING WHAT'S GOING ON AND WHAT THE POTENTIAL FOR SPREAD IS OF THIS VIRUS.

Considering the times, I don't see any unreasonable asks in any of the things mentioned.


I was on a ship during Y2K - we had dispersal plans to send a warship to major coastal cities in Canada with the option to use the ship's diesel generators as a power source for the city's grid if things failed...each Halifax Class frigate can produce about 3.4 MW (4x850KW gennies)  which would have been a drop in the bucket, but better than nothing at all.


At this point, the instructions and directions I've seen from my CofC (both in my civilian/PS job and my PRes position) make sense.  Looking at Italy...if we don't get ahead of things, we are in for a bad time, and the overflow of the medical system will be the worst kind of hell for all of us.  A limited capacity of beds/ventilators with an over capacity of those who need them in order to have a chance to live will see a cascade of deaths, and if that breaks our health-care system, that's when I see the CAF getting called in somehow to help cope.  


We don't have the expertise to do so right now...most of the troops we'd bring to the response will only have Basic First Aid.


NS


----------



## OldSolduer

:rofl:There’s a lot of “the end is nigh” or “we’re f$&ked” nonsense here at work. I constantly tell people we will get through this. Humanity is not going to disappear from the planet. Take the precautions you’re told to and the exposure will be minimized. We’ve been through similar scenarios. 
Too much amygdala and not enough cortex. 

A positive attitude is helpful.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What I will say whether I'm right or wrong about some of my posts is that my experience has/been with how things have been done working in Ottawa for almost my entire career.  While I don't really know specifics of how they operate, I know many bases, especially places like Edmonton, Petawawa, Gagetown and I'm sure others do, do things different.  A lot of mbr's in Ottawa including me are treated and operate as if they are civilians.  They mostly work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600 and when they are discovered staying late they are told not to.  At least for the Jr. NCM's.  That is a fact. I'm not saying all but I am saying a lot, so for people like me that have had that type of career, stop flipping out about certain posts I make. When I say things that are fact, it is fact from what it is like around me.  Most of the Jr NCM's are not working while at home, so I don't know where this 90 percent of the CAF is working via cell or personal email comes from.  I've also heard from a couple MCpl's in Borden and 1 guy in Edmonton who are not working.
> I've never been accused of it before but I must have bad writing skills because most of what I do is ask questions around here and sometimes give opinions which we are all entitled to do.  It doesn't mean people need to agree with them but they shouldn't get attacked for them.  I think I now understand why so many people just read on sites like this instead of contributing.  Sorry this post isn't more organized but I'm a little pissed off.


The problem isn't you expressing your experiences and opinions, it's how you have presented them. Like it or not, what you are complaining about in some cases, other people would love to have the problem.

For instance, you're upset about only being allowed to drive 250 km in your car. You're in Ottawa, within a 250 km radius you can get to Montreal, Kingston, Trenton, Petawawa (should you wish - shudder), Mont Tremblant...all kinds of places you can get away for some leave that are pretty decent, should you wish to put yourself and your family at that risk.  You're in a major metropolitan area with all the shopping you could ever need, medical specialists, Children's Hospital... Folks in Cold Lake can't even drive to Edmonton to stock up on things they can't get in Cold Lake. Same for folks posted to Suffield, they "legally" can't make it to Calgary.  

By your own admission, you've been treated as a civilian almost your entire career. Consider yourself lucky I guess, while you've been able to do the 9-5, raise your kids in one place, a whole bunch of other people haven't had that luck, but they've also learned how to roll with the punches when the CAF makes demands on them outside the "norm".


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Problem is we have people that make a big deal about giving their boss/work their civilian email address/personal cell number or take this mentality that if they're on leave they're going to hide from being contacted until they're done leave. We're not accountants or mcdonalds workers.
> 
> It's a cultural problem where we see ourselves like a 9-5 civilian job and not defenders of our country and citizens.



Well I guess since we told told class A types to join the reg force if they want pay, we should be telling these full time types to go class A if they want to hide to not show up or to not have leave cancelled.  ;D

I find in the reserves, troops are all too happy to give you their cell or email (or “an” email).  Answering or acknowledging is the issue at times.  It becomes very selective at times.  Like when they want something.


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID-19: results of an openlabel non-randomized clinical trial
> 
> TL;DR: Good outcomes in treating COVID-19 patients with chloroquine and, when indicated, azithromycin.
> 
> 
> https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf



That's potentially huge if it works out. Extraordinarily bold claims for a study with its many limitations- but given present circumstances I can't blame them.


----------



## 211RadOp

And on the lighter side of things:



> *Strip club offering virtual reality lap dances for COVID-19 self-isolated*
> 
> Eddie Chau
> More from Eddie Chau
> 
> Published on: March 18, 2020 | Last Updated: March 18, 2020 11:14 AM EDT
> 
> It’s just as good as the real thing.
> 
> For those randy individuals who are in self-isolation thanks to the COVID-19 outbreak, a New York-based strip club might have just the solution for those in need of some relief.
> 
> According to the New York Post, the members-only strip club Die Happy Tonight is launching virtual lap dances on Tuesday for patrons who are self-quarantined amid the anxiety over the novel coronavirus.
> 
> Die Happy Tonight founder Kalin Moon told The Post that VR was something the gentlemen’s club had in its plan for a while and the launch happened “to come at a time where people aren’t leaving their home.”
> 
> <snip>
> 
> A Die Happy Tonight virtual membership isn’t cheap though. It starts at $1,200.



https://www.thewhig.com/news/world/strip-club-offering-virtual-reality-lap-dances-for-covid-19-self-isolated/wcm/81c389d1-26fc-4bcd-826e-6ae2c97b92d4

(Move to Radio Chatter if more appropriate)


----------



## stellarpanther

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavirus-covid-pandemic-response-scientists-1.5502423

Interesting article about one prominent scientist asking if this is all going too far.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavirus-covid-pandemic-response-scientists-1.5502423
> 
> Interesting article about one prominent scientist asking if this is all going too far.


And for those who haven't seen it yet, an opinion piece from yesterday about the world having a plan in place to address a pandemic, and then ignoring it...

Populism and pandemics: The IHR was meant to address outbreaks like COVID-19, but nations have ignored it


> It wasn't supposed to play out this way.
> 
> The world entered into a grand bargain in 2005 with the approval of the revised International Health Regulations (IHR). Countries essentially ceded some sovereignty to the World Health Organization (WHO) in order to best protect each other from global public health emergencies, and to preserve international travel and trade when these emergencies occurred.
> 
> Countries also agreed to implement measures to detect, report and respond to potential international threats that emerge within their borders. The WHO would decide when an event had met the level of a public health emergency of international concern. If it did, the WHO would decide what measures were necessary to prevent the spread of the threat, while at the same time, avoiding unnecessary interference with international travel and trade.
> ...
> However, from the beginning of this crisis, countries and non-state actors, such as airlines, have exceeded the WHO recommendations. The United States has announced a ban of all non-essential travel to mainland Europe. Canada has asked all non-essential travel to be cancelled and has closed its borders to most non-Canadian travelers. European nations are rapidly closing borders.
> ...


More at link.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What I will say whether I'm right or wrong about some of my posts is that my experience has/been with how things have been done working in Ottawa for almost my entire career.  While I don't really know specifics of how they operate, I know many bases, especially places like Edmonton, Petawawa, Gagetown and I'm sure others do, do things different.  A lot of mbr's in Ottawa including me are treated and operate as if they are civilians.  They mostly work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600 and when they are discovered staying late they are told not to.  At least for the Jr. NCM's.  That is a fact. I'm not saying all but I am saying a lot, so for people like me that have had that type of career, stop flipping out about certain posts I make. When I say things that are fact, it is fact from what it is like around me.  Most of the Jr NCM's are not working while at home, so I don't know where this 90 percent of the CAF is working via cell or personal email comes from.  I've also heard from a couple MCpl's in Borden and 1 guy in Edmonton who are not working.
> I've never been accused of it before but I must have bad writing skills because most of what I do is ask questions around here and sometimes give opinions which we are all entitled to do.  It doesn't mean people need to agree with them but they shouldn't get attacked for them.  I think I now understand why so many people just read on sites like this instead of contributing.  Sorry this post isn't more organized but I'm a little pissed off.





			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> The problem isn't you expressing your experiences and opinions, it's how you have presented them. Like it or not, what you are complaining about in some cases, other people would love to have the problem.
> 
> For instance, you're upset about only being allowed to drive 250 km in your car. You're in Ottawa, within a 250 km radius you can get to Montreal, Kingston, Trenton, Petawawa (should you wish - shudder), Mont Tremblant...all kinds of places you can get away for some leave that are pretty decent, should you wish to put yourself and your family at that risk.  You're in a major metropolitan area with all the shopping you could ever need, medical specialists, Children's Hospital... Folks in Cold Lake can't even drive to Edmonton to stock up on things they can't get in Cold Lake. Same for folks posted to Suffield, they "legally" can't make it to Calgary.
> 
> By your own admission, you've been treated as a civilian almost your entire career. Consider yourself lucky I guess, while you've been able to do the 9-5, raise your kids in one place, a whole bunch of other people haven't had that luck, but they've also learned how to roll with the punches when the CAF makes demands on them outside the "norm".



Stellerpanther,

I’ve never had any issue with your posts in any fashion. I don’t think, in 7+ years here, you’ve ever even been on my radar; period. And in the modding & forum realm, that’s not a bad thing. At all. So if you want to take this and the following as an attack, then so be it. 

All of a sudden, in the past few days you’ve presented yourself as whiny, entitled and argumentative. Multiple users, including myself, have tried to explain, direct, enlighten and correct your inquiries in calm and polite fashion, yet you come back again defending your position and your woe-is-me-ness without any sort of acknowledgement to what has been directed towards you from anyone with the hopes of helping you understand what’s going on wrt your concerns/feelings and why. Then Weinie, in a very diplomatic yet direct fashion, attempted to show you how you’re coming off to others, yet you ah-gain came back with defensiveness and argument.

Now, I’ll tell you what has irked me—because I’m (mostly) relatively calm when interacting with users here. You’re now essentially claiming you’re being victimized on this forum by users writ large who’ve done nothing but post comments to you solely in the spirit of helpfulness. They have not been rude, they have not sworn, they have not belittled you, they have not docked you milpoints, they have done anything but try to steer you in the right direction. You wanna read “attacked”? Hell, have you not read any of the dog-piling that used to occur here for the simplest of comments? That doesn’t happen anymore.

EVERYone has been working very hard to keep things civil here, users and staff alike, and for you to come and imply that this site is either like it used to be, or similar to other forums out there, because all you did was share a few of your thoughts, well, that really gets under my skin.

Wienie, and others, took the words out of my mouth. I thought maybe we’d get some sort of ‘Ah, okay I get it now, thanks.’ from you, but no. It was more of the same.

So, at this point, if you still don’t see how you’re coming across as to illicit some of the feedback you’ve received in this thread, there’s nothing more that can be done. And if you think you’ve been treated SO badly that you’re now apprehensive to post further, well, nothing I can say about that anymore either. 

Post, or don’t. Read, or don’t. But know that there are many here who are tolerant and patient with those who may be having difficulty with policies, posts, deployments, orders, and any other manner of concerns, myself included. Each user, and each user alone is responsible for how they’re perceived and interacted with on this forum. 

Rant done.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a treatment of COVID-19: results of an openlabel non-randomized clinical trial
> 
> TL;DR: Good outcomes in treating COVID-19 patients with chloroquine and, when indicated, azithromycin.
> 
> 
> https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf



Good as a first step, but hardly unique in terms of research.  I didn't find that particular clinical trial in the ClinicalTrials.gov database but that's not unusual (the database is neither mandatory nor all inclusive).  However, as of this moment a search with the term "Covid-19" returns 114 results worldwide (up from 104 yesterday afternoon).


_Edited to add_

I suppose I should have searched some of the other clinical trials databases before responding.  In looking through the the EU registry, I did find one chloroquine trial listed for IHU Méditerranée Infection.  https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/trial/2020-000890-25/FR#F

And in the WHO registry "Covid-19" returns 522 results.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Coronavirus thumps Brazil, prompting nationwide cries of 'Bolsonaro Out!'*
> 
> The coronavirus outbreak hammered Brazil on Wednesday, crushing local markets, infecting more members of the country’s political elite and prompting loud protests against President Jair Bolsonaro, whose son waded into a diplomatic spat with China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bolsonaro’s national security adviser, the mines and energy minister and the head of the Senate all tested positive for the virus on Wednesday, as the death toll rose to four dead with 428 people infected.
> 
> Bolsonaro has come under mounting criticism for his lax handling of the outbreak, which he initially labeled a “fantasy.” The virus’ spread represents a major threat for the far-right populist, who was already struggling to resuscitate the country’s weak economy.
> 
> On Wednesday night, Brazil erupted to the sound of banging pots and pans and shouts of “Bolsonaro out!” with housebound protesters expressing their anger toward the president. The protests took place in major Brazilian cities and even included projections of “Bolsonaro out!” onto the sides of buildings, according to social media videos.
> 
> Bolsonaro says he has twice tested negative for the coronavirus, but 14 people in his entourage to Florida 10 days ago have tested positive. The fallout from the trip, in which he met U.S. President Donald Trump, haunts him.
> 
> In a fresh headache late on Wednesday, his son Eduardo, a federal lawmaker who also traveled to meet Trump, sparked a diplomatic dust-up with China, Brazil’s top trade partner.
> 
> In a tweet, he likened China’s role in the coronavirus outbreak to that of the USSR during the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, alleging a cover-up. “It’s China’s fault and freedom is the answer,” he tweeted.
> 
> His comments, which echoed those of Trump, sparked an angry response from the Chinese embassy, which said he had contracted a “mental virus” while in the United States.
> 
> “Sadly, you are a person without any international vision or common sense,” it tweeted at him. “We suggest you don’t rush to become the U.S. spokesman in Brazil, or risk an ugly fall.”
> 
> With criticism mounting, the president held an afternoon news conference with ministers - all wearing masks - to announce emergency measures to contain the virus and buttress the economy, including assistance for poorer families and support for a struggling aviation industry.
> 
> Financial markets were rattled by the fast-spreading virus that causes the COVID-19 respiratory disease.
> 
> The benchmark Bovespa stock index closed 10% lower, bond yields spiked and Brazil’s currency hit an all-time low of 5.2 per dollar before central bank measures in foreign exchange and bond markets helped to pare losses.
> 
> After markets closed, the central bank cut its benchmark interest rate to an all-time low of 3.75% and pledged “to deploy its arsenal of monetary, exchange rate and financial stability policies to fight the current crisis.”
> 
> In a fresh blow to many retail stocks, Sao Paulo Governor Joao Doria on Wednesday recommended the closure of shopping malls in the metro area of the country’s biggest city, while Sao Paulo city hall also ordered commercial establishments closed to the public from Friday until April 5, with some exceptions.
> 
> Airline association ABEAR said the sudden halt in travel was the worst crisis ever faced by Brazil’s aviation sector. Demand for domestic flights in the second half of March fell 50% and international bookings were 85% down, ABEAR said.
> 
> 
> *BORDER CLOSING*
> 
> Bolsonaro said Brazil was considering closing all its land borders, following a decree closing its border to Venezuelans, citing contagion risks and strains on the public health system.
> 
> The decree, published on Wednesday, does not apply to trucks shipping goods or cross-border humanitarian aid previously authorized by health officials. The 15-day ban on Venezuelans entering Brazil could be extended, it added.
> 
> In another restriction of border traffic, land transport regulator ANTT suspended for 60 days all international bus services.
> 
> Seven cities neighboring Sao Paulo, Brazil’s biggest metropolis, said they would begin reducing municipal transportation until a total shutdown from March 29 onward.
> 
> In a an almost empty lower chamber of Congress, lawmakers approved a presidential decree declaring a national emergency, which allows the government to waive fiscal targets and free up budget resources. The decree is expected to pass the Senate next week.
> 
> Senate President Davi Alcolumbre said on social media that had been diagnosed while Bolsonaro Mines and Energy Minister Bento Albuquerque, 61, had tested positive. So, too, has the president’s National Security Advisor Augusto Heleno, 72.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-idUSKBN2152FK


----------



## Jay4th

Sit rep from the Training centre, where I work.
All of my instructors are scheduled to begin spring break Sat 21 Mar to Sun 29 Mar.
85% are on IR from Edmonton and really looking forward to a break.  Current CDS direction and Frag O's have little impact on their leave plans.
All of my DP1 students were scheduled for spring break Sat 21 Mar to Sun 29 Mar. CDS direction confines them to base, however leave is not cancelled, however 90 are from out of province so flights will need to be cancelled, they will be on annual leave in the barracks except the 3 troops whose parents live in Edmonton.

An unpleasant situation for sure.


----------



## garb811

Jay4th said:
			
		

> Sit rep from the Training centre, where I work.
> All of my instructors are scheduled to begin spring break Sat 21 Mar to Sun 29 Mar.
> 85% are on IR from Edmonton and really looking forward to a break.  Current CDS direction and Frag O's have little impact on their leave plans.
> All of my DP1 students were scheduled for spring break Sat 21 Mar to Sun 29 Mar. CDS direction confines them to base, however leave is not cancelled, however 90 are from out of province so flights will need to be cancelled, they will be on annual leave in the barracks except the 3 troops whose parents live in Edmonton.
> 
> An unpleasant situation for sure.


Queue the stream of pizza delivery cars and taxis delivering booze...

Hope you gave the Guardhouse a heads up so they can be ready.


----------



## MilEME09

In the press conference yesterday, Alberta's premier said latest models show this peaking in Alberta in about 5 weeks. That put's us at the end of April if that model ends up being right, given how quickly things are changing it is impossible to say right now. Suffice to say, I probably am looking at my own wedding in may being postponed, The bigger question is from a business perspective,  when the dust settles what will be left? many small businesses likely will not survive, my own work is shut down, while my owner is optimistic, we are all laid off until further notice. If businesses fold on mass recovery is going to be very very difficult.


----------



## stellarpanther

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Stellerpanther,
> 
> I’ve never had any issue with your posts in any fashion. I don’t think, in 7+ years here, you’ve ever even been on my radar; period. And in the modding & forum realm, that’s not a bad thing. At all. So if you want to take this and the following as an attack, then so be it.
> 
> All of a sudden, in the past few days you’ve presented yourself as whiny, entitled and argumentative. Multiple users, including myself, have tried to explain, direct, enlighten and correct your inquiries in calm and polite fashion, yet you come back again defending your position and your woe-is-me-ness without any sort of acknowledgement to what has been directed towards you from anyone with the hopes of helping you understand what’s going on wrt your concerns/feelings and why. Then Weinie, in a very diplomatic yet direct fashion, attempted to show you how you’re coming off to others, yet you ah-gain came back with defensiveness and argument.
> 
> Now, I’ll tell you what has irked me—because I’m (mostly) relatively calm when interacting with users here. You’re now essentially claiming you’re being victimized on this forum by users writ large who’ve done nothing but post comments to you solely in the spirit of helpfulness. They have not been rude, they have not sworn, they have not belittled you, they have not docked you milpoints, they have done anything but try to steer you in the right direction. You wanna read “attacked”? Hell, have you not read any of the dog-piling that used to occur here for the simplest of comments? That doesn’t happen anymore.
> 
> EVERYone has been working very hard to keep things civil here, users and staff alike, and for you to come and imply that this site is either like it used to be, or similar to other forums out there, because all you did was share a few of your thoughts, well, that really gets under my skin.
> 
> Wienie, and others, took the words out of my mouth. I thought maybe we’d get some sort of ‘Ah, okay I get it now, thanks.’ from you, but no. It was more of the same.
> 
> So, at this point, if you still don’t see how you’re coming across as to illicit some of the feedback you’ve received in this thread, there’s nothing more that can be done. And if you think you’ve been treated SO badly that you’re now apprehensive to post further, well, nothing I can say about that anymore either.
> 
> Post, or don’t. Read, or don’t. But know that there are many here who are tolerant and patient with those who may be having difficulty with policies, posts, deployments, orders, and any other manner of concerns, myself included. Each user, and each user alone is responsible for how they’re perceived and interacted with on this forum.
> 
> Rant done.


I am apologizing for my earlier frustration.  Yesterday I had someone that was quite upset when I told them that they now couldn't go visit their family because it was outside of the 250km radius.  One person started crying.  That stuff does weigh on a person.  The other thing that set me off a bit was the comment that 90 percent of CAF is working at home on their cell/personal email.  That simply isn't true and I took that comment basically accusing me of lying. I always try to do my best not to post rumors. Finally I will also say that I do understand the CDS reasons for doing what he is doing.  People are going to have opinions about whether they agree or disagree with higher up's but at the end of the day as long as we immediately say "yes sir" and do what we're told I don't see the point of questioning it. 
One other thing I want to say and it's only my opinion, although I've heard from a couple Chief's that this is an issue that they are struggling with is that the younger generation of CAF mbr's simply doesn't think or relate in the same way as some of the older mbr's.  They just seem to be wired differently and don't process things the same regardless of how it's explained to them. I had one Chief tell me that they can yell at them, discipline them but it's often for nothing because it will be taken as getting punished for no reason. I don't know the solution to that.


----------



## dapaterson

The best summation I've heard is what apparently one three star said to his subordinates (paraphrasing) "This is like nothing I've ever seen in my 32 plus years of service, so I'm shaken and discombobulated, so I expect everyone else to be too.   We know there will be rough patches, but we're all in this together, and will get through this together."


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> One other thing I want to say and it's only my opinion, although I've heard from a couple Chief's that this is an issue that they are struggling with is that the younger generation of CAF mbr's simply doesn't think or relate in the same way as some of the older mbr's.  They just seem to be wired differently and don't process things the same regardless of how it's explained to them. I had one Chief tell me that they can yell at them, discipline them but it's often for nothing because it will be taken as getting punished for no reason. I don't know the solution to that.



I think younger generations for the most part seem to buying into the myth that this an illness that only strikes the elderly, the sick, or the really young. So they do not see it as a them problem, case and point look at Florida and all the people that seem to be still flooding the beaches for spring break. Troops need to understand these measures are for their own safety, and for the preservation of the force as a whole, a sick soldier is a combat ineffective soldier.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> The number of COVID-19 cases in the U.S. is soaring -- up 40% in just 24 hours. The White House is telling Americans to stay home -- but as @CBCKatie
> tells us, not everyone is listening.
> 
> https://twitter.com/CBCMorningLive/status/1240637955749928961


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I am apologizing for my earlier frustration.  Yesterday I had someone that was quite upset when I told them that they now couldn't go visit their family because it was outside of the 250km radius.  One person started crying.  That stuff does weigh on a person.  The other thing that set me off a bit was the comment that 90 percent of CAF is working at home on their cell/personal email.  That simply isn't true and I took that comment basically accusing me of lying. I always try to do my best not to post rumors. Finally I will also say that I do understand the CDS reasons for doing what he is doing.  People are going to have opinions about whether they agree or disagree with higher up's but at the end of the day as long as we immediately say "yes sir" and do what we're told I don't see the point of questioning it.
> One other thing I want to say and it's only my opinion, although I've heard from a couple Chief's that this is an issue that they are struggling with is that the younger generation of CAF mbr's simply doesn't think or relate in the same way as some of the older mbr's.  They just seem to be wired differently and don't process things the same regardless of how it's explained to them. I had one Chief tell me that they can yell at them, discipline them but it's often for nothing because it will be taken as getting punished for no reason. I don't know the solution to that.


"Working from home" can have different contexts obviously. Someone with a DVPNI laptop can do quite a bit, as long as they can get a connection and it doesn't crash on them. But an MSE Op can't work at home and conduct driving duties, but they can be doing things like being on DLN to get IBTS DL out of the way. It can also be something as simple as being "on call" and ready to go in the case of a HRA who might be needed to surge into the OR to get someone out the door for a Op essential mission. They are just a phone call away and if they are called and are unreachable or say they can't come in, things will go badly for them.

FWIW, I'm on leave, at home, after altering my leave travel plan once to avoid flying and then cancelling it outright based on the CDS direction on PMV distance limits. I'm also riding my Blackberry. Why? Because the guy who is currently doing my job could be ordered to self-quarantine at anytime and I need to be ready immediately to step in should that happen, leave or no leave.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> One other thing I want to say and it's only my opinion, although I've heard from a couple Chief's that this is an issue that they are struggling with is that the younger generation of CAF mbr's simply doesn't think or relate in the same way as some of the older mbr's.  They just seem to be wired differently and don't process things the same regardless of how it's explained to them. I had one Chief tell me that they can yell at them, discipline them but it's often for nothing because it will be taken as getting punished for no reason. I don't know the solution to that.



You're talking my generation- the 'goddamned millennials'.  ;D If people don't understand why they're getting punished, then you won't build the behavioural associations to correct what you see as the problem. If people don't understand why they're being punished, there has been a failure in communications.

We want the 'so what', we want the 'why'. We want the bigger picture, and we care about intent. We'll buy in, and we'll work hard, creatively, and innovatively- if we're on side. We don't respond well to 'loudership', it's widely seen as an infantile way to lead and direct people in most cases. That's not to say we can't see the time and the place for it, but that it's the exception, not the norm.

Generally a small investment in time and energy to bring us to understanding why something matters, or its place in the bigger picture it fits into pays dividends. Sometimes you'll see other spontaneous actions that help to further the intent, sometimes you'll 'merely' develop champions for an idea. Not a bad thing.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"We know there will be rough patches, but we're all in this together, and will get through this together."

Yes.  A lot of people are going to have grievances, ranging from "I can't go where I want" to "I lost my job" to "I lost my health".  It's worth thinking about where your own grievances fit in that spectrum before feeling hard done by.


----------



## Blackadder1916

And another milestone has been reached.  The first Head of State has been tested positive (or at least the first to publicly admit to testing positive).

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/monaco-s-prince-albert-ii-tests-positive-for-virus-1.4859710

PARIS -- The palace of Monaco says its ruler, Prince Albert II, has tested positive for the new coronavirus but his health is not worrying.

Albert, 62, appeared to be the first head of state who has publicly said he contracted the virus.

In a statement Thursday, the palace said he is being treated by doctors from the Princess Grace Hospital, named after his U.S. actress mother. It says Albert is continuing to work from his home office in the palace and is in constant contact with members of his government.


----------



## dimsum

Brihard said:
			
		

> We don't respond well to 'loudership', it's widely seen as an infantile way to lead and direct people in most cases. That's not to say we can't see the time and the place for it, but that it's the exception, not the norm.



I'm really liking the term "loudership".  I think I'll use it to call people out at some point.


----------



## Cloud Cover

UK putting 10,000 military into the CV 19 support force effort, another 10,000 on reserve and call ups starting : https://www.gov.uk/government/news/military-stands-up-covid-support-force


----------



## OceanBonfire

> Trudeau says "we're considering using any measures necessary" to ensure that the country has the medical equipment that it needs. He says Canada might use the military procurement policy to get devices like ventilators.
> 
> https://twitter.com/JPTasker/status/1240657610296242177





> Here's what Prime Minister Trudeau had to say about the possibility of invoking the Emergencies Act because of #COVID19.
> 
> https://twitter.com/CTVNews/status/1240663067198808064


----------



## MilEME09

military procurement policy? so we will see the equipment in 10 years?


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> military procurement policy? so we will see the equipment in 10 years?



So the ventilators will all smell like faint vomit and sound like a dying rat?


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> military procurement policy? so we will see the equipment in 10 years?



Yes.  And it will be used equipment bought from the Australians.


----------



## dimsum

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> military procurement policy? so we will see the equipment in 10 years?



Well, at least there will be heat and light on how messed up the procurement policy is currently.  

Open, transparent competition on ventilators!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Nice...


This student created a network of ‘shopping angels’ to help the elderly get groceries during the COVID-19 pandemic 

Amid the desperate crowds and sparse shelves at supermarkets across the country, there is grace in the aisles. Jayde Powell is a “shopping angel,” and she and her growing army of volunteers are providing free grocery delivery to the sick and elderly.
Powell is an honor student at the University of Nevada, Reno. She got the idea to organize a few volunteers to help out during the pandemic when her mother mentioned calling elderly neighbors to see whether they needed anything.

“As a pre-med student, I know that people who are older or people who have heart, lung or immune conditions are especially at risk for contracting the virus,” Powell told CNN.

https://wgntv.com/news/this-student-created-a-network-of-shopping-angels-to-help-the-elderly-get-groceries-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> military procurement policy? so we will see the equipment in 10 years?



Meanwhile owners of 3D printers are making ventilator parts and donating them.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I am apologizing for my earlier frustration.  Yesterday I had someone that was quite upset when I told them that they now couldn't go visit their family because it was outside of the 250km radius.  One person started crying.  That stuff does weigh on a person.  The other thing that set me off a bit was the comment that 90 percent of CAF is working at home on their cell/personal email.  That simply isn't true and I took that comment basically accusing me of lying. I always try to do my best not to post rumors. Finally I will also say that I do understand the CDS reasons for doing what he is doing.  People are going to have opinions about whether they agree or disagree with higher up's but at the end of the day as long as we immediately say "yes sir" and do what we're told I don't see the point of questioning it.
> One other thing I want to say and it's only my opinion, although I've heard from a couple Chief's that this is an issue that they are struggling with is that the younger generation of CAF mbr's simply doesn't think or relate in the same way as some of the older mbr's.  They just seem to be wired differently and don't process things the same regardless of how it's explained to them. I had one Chief tell me that they can yell at them, discipline them but it's often for nothing because it will be taken as getting punished for no reason. I don't know the solution to that.



Thank you. 

So you know, I wasn’t moderating you and I wasn’t dismissing the feelings you’ve expressed at different times. I was gathering you were frustrated with some things. I hope everything gets smoothed out on your end, and you and your family remain healthy. 

As you know, this site is a community. Many have been hanging around and/or participating for several, years—some for multiple decades, even. I haven’t been here nearly as long, and have only been staff for an even shorter period of time. But it’s important to me. The efforts of those who are part of this community are important to me, the future of this site is important to me. So there are very specific aspects I feel strongly about.


----------



## 211RadOp

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Nice...
> 
> 
> This student created a network of ‘shopping angels’ to help the elderly get groceries during the COVID-19 pandemic
> 
> Amid the desperate crowds and sparse shelves at supermarkets across the country, there is grace in the aisles. Jayde Powell is a “shopping angel,” and she and her growing army of volunteers are providing free grocery delivery to the sick and elderly.
> Powell is an honor student at the University of Nevada, Reno. She got the idea to organize a few volunteers to help out during the pandemic when her mother mentioned calling elderly neighbors to see whether they needed anything.
> 
> “As a pre-med student, I know that people who are older or people who have heart, lung or immune conditions are especially at risk for contracting the virus,” Powell told CNN.
> 
> https://wgntv.com/news/this-student-created-a-network-of-shopping-angels-to-help-the-elderly-get-groceries-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/



A college student in Kingston posted on the Kingston Yardsale FB page that he was willing to do the same last week.  I don't know if he got any takers or not...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Irving lays off workers, shuts down Halifax Shipyard for three weeks*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Irving Shipbuilding is suspending work at the Halifax Shipyard and its Marine Fabricators and Woodside Industries locations for three weeks in response to the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> The company issued layoff notices Thursday afternoon, noting that the shutdown will be assessed on a weekly basis. It says the decision impacts 1,100 of the 1,800 workers at those sites.
> 
> “This decision became necessary given the high density of the employee population in certain work areas, high absenteeism, and reduced critical vendor support in materials and services,” the layoff notice says. “This decision was made in consultation with our Government of Canada customers.”
> 
> The shipyard has federal contracts for six Arctic and offshore patrol vessels, and for 15 Canadian Surface Combatant ships.
> 
> Unionized workers are being paid for this week and the week of March 23, but beyond that they are being told to use vacation or banked overtime to make up for lost wages.
> 
> The layoff notice also points people to the federal emergency aid, announced yesterday.
> 
> In a media release, Irving Shipbuilding says it is continuing to support operations that can comply with health authority guidelines.
> 
> Public health officials in Nova Scotia have limited gatherings to 50 people or fewer in an attempt to slow the spread of the virus.
> 
> Irving Shipbuilding also says it is expanding work from home options and other flexible work measures for the approximately 700 people not impacted by the layoff notice.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6702226/irving-lays-off-workers-shuts-down-halifax-shipyard-for-three-weeks/
> 
> https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/irving-suspends-industrial-operations-at-halifax-shipyard-over-covid-19-concerns-1.4859924


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> If you are on annual leave, I don't think the CDS order is relevant to what you can or cannot do as a result of civilian authorities imposed restrictions (including the Federal government). Once you leave is over, then and only then are you covered by the CDS's order.
> 
> As an example, your annual leave would remain your annual leave if you're stuck at home because your cruise was cancelled as a result t of the ship catching fire the night before your cruise, regardless of any order from the CDS. This is no different: you elected to take your annual leave at this time and the civilian authorities/world circumstances limited what you could do during that time. It's unfortunate but as the kids say: "it is what it is".



Yes. I interpreted a few comments as there being confusion surrounding what was, or wasn’t happening with leave, so I offered up my circumstances and that nothing had been conveyed to me about leave not being processed as normal.


----------



## Weinie

At first glance at the picture in the Irving story, I thought the sign on the right side far end said "The future is Max Bernier"


----------



## 211RadOp

Ontario has extended deadlines to get new drivers licences, validation stickers and health cards.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ontario-extends-the-deadline-to-renew-licence-plates-licences-and-health-cards-1.4859791


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Apparently displayed at our local Costco.

Are people perhaps feeling remorseful and trying to make returns?


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post, note the "Theme song" at the end:



> COVID-19 and a Blitz Myth
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> COVID-19, or, What a Wonderful World it Isn’t, Part 2
> 
> historian Richard Overy (more here) warns people not to invoke the “London can take it” spirit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the cruel myth of the ‘blitz spirit’ is no model for how to fight coronavirus
> 
> Wartime leaders disguised the awful reality of being bombed with tales of British resolve. It’s no fit approach for this crisis
> 
> *Richard Overy is professor of history at the University of Exeter and author of The Bombing War [see this post: "World War II: Combined Bomber Offensive Against Germany Effectively a Bust"]
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/03/19/covid-19-and-a-blitz-myth/
Click to expand...







UPDATE: Note the videos at the UPDATE at the bottom of the post.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Remius

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Apparently displayed at our local Costco.
> 
> Are people perhaps feeling remorseful and trying to make returns?



Remorseful that they can’t sell it online at outrageous prices.


----------



## observor 69

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Apparently displayed at our local Costco.
> 
> Are people perhaps feeling remorseful and trying to make returns?



My Costco, at the start of the panic, had people leaving with shopping carts filled to the max with toilet paper. I just can't fathom the logic. Why toilet paper specifically?
Costco must be doing a great business from this panic.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

With one full fledged teenage girl, another budding one, you do not "Hoard/stockpile", you merely have enough not to have to do the regular number of runs to the store.


----------



## OldSolduer

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm really liking the term "loudership".  I think I'll use it to call people out at some point.



Its a common tool in the Infantry - especially amongst louts who  have a bit of rank.

It is required at some point, as reactions to effective enemy fire may require some to be reminded of that.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

This gave me a good laugh. People are certainly finding humour in the situation, and can’t blame them for that!


----------



## tomahawk6

Britain has added 10,000 troops to fight the virus.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/18/coronavirus-live-news-updates-outbreak-us-states-uk-australia-europe-eu-self-isolation-lockdown-latest-update?page=with:block-5e72a4798f085e564ad86c27


----------



## The Bread Guy

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> ... Why toilet paper specifically? ...


Some theories from south of us.


----------



## mariomike

Some joker on the internet started a rumour,



> A viral rumor about Costco toilet paper being recalled is a hoax
> https://www.businessinsider.com/costco-toilet-paper-recall-hoax-coronavirus-kirkland-2020-3
> 
> "The internet hoax claims that the warehouse chain's in-house brand has been somehow tainted by the coronavirus."


----------



## Furniture

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Why toilet paper specifically?



To quote one of the greatest movies of our time "everybody pees and poops"

https://youtu.be/PLNPl-umZ9I?t=37


----------



## daftandbarmy

Whew.... looks like I'm going to be OK. I already hate doing all those things on the left side of the chart


----------



## medicineman

Be amazed how many people don't get it - was at the gas station yesterday and was in line - 6ft from the dude in front of me...he gets his stuff paid for and steps aside for me as most people do...then gave me a dirty look when I gave the attendant my request from where I was.  Same thing the other day getting grocery top up - guy in front of me gave stand off to the one in front of him, me the same...lady behind me is trying to give me a colonoscopy.  PEOPLE ARE PHUQUING CLUELESS.

My I hate phuquenuggets speech for the day.

MM


----------



## Remius

I haven’t been out much since being told to stay home from work except for the odd grocery run for stuff.   I thought I’d get weird looks for wearing nitrile gloves while shopping.  Except when I got there I wasn’t the only one.  The ones not wearing gloves were getting the looks lol and there eyes would widen seeing people wearing them.


----------



## garb811

Remius said:
			
		

> ...wearing nitrile gloves while shopping.  Except when I got there I wasn’t the only one.  The ones not wearing gloves were getting the looks lol and there eyes would widen seeing people wearing them.


But...why? 

The problem isn't that the virus enters your body via the skin, it's via the respiratory tract. All you're doing with nitrile gloves in that situation is transferring the virus from whatever surface you may contact it on, to the gloves, and then to everything you touch with the gloves, including your face if you happen to touch it. End result is the same as if you had just done your shopping with bare hands, unless you're changing gloves in between everything you touch/pick up...

Don't touch your face with your hands when out and about.
If soap and water aren't available, use hand sanitizer if you need to eat/drink/touch your face when out and about.
Wash your hands with soap and water when you get home.


----------



## OceanBonfire

First death in Alberta:

https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/1240754625176838147

https://twitter.com/CTVNews/status/1240754751568044033


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Most recent info/orders from my WO emailed to my unit as of 1617 today. The first paragraph is telling, (although I think most of us were expecting some iteration of it), and there’s also more info relating to leave specifically for who the email was sent to. I haven’t received any further direct notices from higher; just the points being sent to my email.

I haven’t heard/seen much in the way of headlines for the general public out east. How are things out that way? 



> Good day All,
> 
> From HQ. – Please note that the current stay at home restrictions may last beyond first week of Apr as the situation unfolds.
> 
> Your new place of duty will be your home locations until further notice. You are on duty at home. Stay home unless necessary for you to get the basic things required for home/groceries etc. You will be updated as things change when to report to normal work. Should you be on leave during this time, please respect the 250km travel radius within your travels (POMV preferred)
> 
> No accumulation of leave will be authorised as all annuals for this fiscal year must be used. (Should there be outstanding annuals, please submit your leave passes now)
> 
> No crowded event/activity over 50 pers and all other restrictions as per previous email directions apply.
> 
> MFRC services are closed to the public. Access is via telephone
> 
> No VAC services at any in-person locations – only through their 1-800 number or through your My Vac Services account.
> 
> MIR/DENTAL services treated as emerg and please call before attending. 000 000 0000xt 0000 (MIR) or xt 0000 (dental) pls.
> 
> Pl Sgt  - - - will be manning the duty cell phone from home during this time as well. 000 000 0000. Ensure you respond/contact her should you miss a call from her.
> 
> Pls Ack receipt of these emails
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> WO


----------



## Quirky

> Pls Ack receipt of these emails
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> WO



Ah yes the acks. Nothing like getting flooded with emails/texts just to make sure everyone reads it. "Did you get my email"......well if you sent it properly I did. This thing is electronic it's not hand delivered by rickshaw and horse.  :facepalm:



Hypothetically speaking, the CAF could be ordered back to work for normal duties, regardless of trade or positions, at any time correct?


----------



## tomahawk6

This today from the White House.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-calls-anti-malarial-drug-a-game-changer-for-coronavirus-but-the-fda-says-it-needs-study/ar-BB11qpC2?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Remius

garb811 said:
			
		

> But...why?
> 
> The problem isn't that the virus enters your body via the skin, it's via the respiratory tract. All you're doing with nitrile gloves in that situation is transferring the virus from whatever surface you may contact it on, to the gloves, and then to everything you touch with the gloves, including your face if you happen to touch it. End result is the same as if you had just done your shopping with bare hands, unless you're changing gloves in between everything you touch/pick up...
> 
> Don't touch your face with your hands when out and about.
> If soap and water aren't available, use hand sanitizer if you need to eat/drink/touch your face when out and about.
> Wash your hands with soap and water when you get home.



It%u2019s about minimizing contact.  Once I%u2019m done I throw them out.  Then wash, wipe down stuff when I get in.

Edit: just read that it doesn%u2019t uhelp much,  thanks Garb811.  I wouldn't have checked otherwise.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> Ah yes the acks. Nothing like getting flooded with emails/texts just to make sure everyone reads it. "Did you get my email"......well if you sent it properly I did. This thing is electronic it's not hand delivered by rickshaw and horse.  :facepalm:
> 
> 
> 
> Hypothetically speaking, the CAF could be ordered back to work for normal duties, regardless of trade or positions, at any time correct?



There are many who simply can’t be bothered to read. By someone requesting acknowledgment, and supervisors tracking it, then no one can come back later and say they didn’t know. And we all know that happens regularly.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Remius said:
			
		

> It%u2019s about minimizing contact.  Once I%u2019m done I throw them out.  Then wash, wipe down stuff when I get in.



I get what garb is saying. The contact is the same :dunno:


----------



## Remius

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I get what garb is saying. The contact is the same :dunno:



Yep. I get it as well.  I looked into it and he’s right.


----------



## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> This today from the White House.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-calls-anti-malarial-drug-a-game-changer-for-coronavirus-but-the-fda-says-it-needs-study/ar-BB11qpC2?ocid=spartanntp



He needs to STFU and stop saying things that aren't true. Yes, this medication has some promise. No, the regulatory approval process is not already done and has not gone away. They still have steps they have to take, even if abbreviated. This guy has lied and minimized and lied again about COVID since this whole thing brewed up. Once, just once in the term he needs to shut his mouth,open his ears,  listen to the damned experts, and let them have the camera time and do the talking so he doesn't spin more BS.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:
			
		

> It%u2019s about minimizing contact.  Once I%u2019m done I throw them out.  Then wash, wipe down stuff when I get in.
> 
> Edit: just read that it doesn%u2019t uhelp much,  thanks Garb811.  I wouldn't have checked otherwise.



In Walmart today, lady in front of me was handling all of the Celery, I politely said "It would be best not to touch them all or pick them up with a plastic bag", she got very snippy with me and stalked off. Sorry but these times need different approaches: "Where are the possible transmission points? How do I limit them?"


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:
			
		

> Hypothetically speaking, the CAF could be ordered back to work for normal duties, regardless of trade or positions, at any time correct?



Sure...that is the case any minute, of any hour, of any day.  Before, and after this.


----------



## Quirky

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> There are many who simply can’t be bothered to read. By someone requesting acknowledgment, and supervisors tracking it, then no one can come back later and say they didn’t know. And we all know that happens regularly.



This phone/txt/email tag should be interesting over the next few weeks. I already have impatient supervisors doing my job after the information they want provided from me doesn't get to them fast enough. Nothing like micro-managing your people electronically. "Please give me xxxxx info from everyone in your crew NLT 1500." Sure, no problem as I gather the info. 30min later on a crew wide mail from my supervisor: "I need everyones xxxxx info, please email me directly @ xxxxxx.ca". This is only day one. 



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Sure...that is the case any minute, of any hour, of any day.  Before, and after this.



I don't think most young-lings in this organisation are grasping this idea.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Ah yes the acks. Nothing like getting flooded with emails/texts just to make sure everyone reads it. "Did you get my email"......well if you sent it properly I did. This thing is electronic it's not hand delivered by rickshaw and horse.  :facepalm:



I'll see your email ack and raise you a chain of command that tells you to call everyone you emailed (regardless if they responded) to confirm they read the email- and repeat the points.
Then inform the CoC of numbers you contacted so they can populate a spread sheet.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> This guy has lied and minimized and lied again about COVID since this whole thing brewed up. Once, just once in the term he needs to shut his mouth,open his ears,  listen to the damned experts, and let them have the camera time and do the talking so he doesn't spin more BS.



That would be nice.


----------



## OldSolduer

Quirky said:
			
		

> I don't think most young-lings in this organisation are grasping this idea.



Neither do some Padawans. We need a stormtrooper emoji. Or Vader.


----------



## BDTyre

I have yet to get a check-in from my CoC (either my course staff, or my actual CoC) but given the amount of Covid related memes I post on Facebook they've probably gathered I'm just fine.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I have yet to get a check-in from my CoC (either my course staff, or my actual CoC) but given the amount of Covid related memes I post on Facebook they've probably gathered I'm just fine.



Have you seen this these ones? ;D


----------



## BDTyre

I actually just saw those ones this morning!


----------



## PuckChaser

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I have yet to get a check-in from my CoC (either my course staff, or my actual CoC) but given the amount of Covid related memes I post on Facebook they've probably gathered I'm just fine.



Normal Pattern of Life means they don't have to bother you.  ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Why toilet paper specifically?

Early "reports" that claimed 80% of toilet paper was manufactured in China?


----------



## BDTyre

Just got word from my Course O that div has authorized payment for any days missed, including courses and parade nights. I will post more details when not mobile. Don't know if other divisions are the same. Stellarpanther may be interested in this...


----------



## dapaterson

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Just got word from my Course O that div has authorized payment for any days missed, including courses and parade nights. I will post more details when not mobile. Don't know if other divisions are the same. Stellarpanther may be interested in this...



I think that direction came from a few levels above Div.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Open source.



> CFB Borden COVID-19 Telehealth Line
> 
> 31 CF H Svcs C Borden is pleased to announce we are launching a dedicated COVID-19 telehealth line. You will be able to call and leave a message 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Messages will be returned Monday-Friday from 0730-1500. The telehealth line will be monitored by registered nurses.
> 
> You can reach the line at 705-424-1200 ext. 2472
> 
> Who is the call line for?
> Military members, either RegF or ResF (Class B >180d) who have concerns regarding COVID-19 and their own personal health.
> 
> What is the call line for?
> To provide members who are experiencing symptoms of COVID-19, information regarding self-isolation, testing and treatment. Symptoms of COVID-19 include fever, cough (dry) and shortness of breath. If you are experiencing these symptoms, and do not require immediate medical attention, you MUST call the telehealth line and speak to a nurse, prior to attending the clinic. You SHALL self-isolate until you receive further instructions.
> 
> What is the call line NOT for?
> - Booking appointments – Please call your CDU clerk to enquire about booking an appointment (CDU1 – 5360/5353, CDU2 – 7122/3647, CDU3 – 7182)
> - Medication refills – Please call the pharmacy for medication refills (ext. 2410)
> - To provide medical advice/assessment to civilian family members/members of the public – Please call Ontario Public Health (1-866-797-0000) or your local public health unit
> - If you are a unit representative with questions about your subordinates MELs or care, please continue to liaise with your respective CDU’s PCN
> 
> Please note, that if you are experiencing any medical emergency, to call 911 and/or attend your local ER.
> 
> ///////////////////////////////////Début du message en français///////////////////////////////////
> 
> BFC Borden COVID-19 Ligne téléphonique de soins de santé
> 
> 31 CF H Svcs C Borden annonce avec plaisir le lancement d’une ligne téléphonique de soins de santé dédiée au COVID-19. Vous avez la possibilité d’appeler et de laisser un message 24 heures par jour, 7 jours par semaine.  Les messages seront répondus du lundi au vendredi de 0730-1500.  La ligne de soins de santé sera surveillée par des infirmières.
> 
> La ligne peut être jointe au no 705-424-1200 ext. 2472.
> 
> À qui s’adresse cette ligne?
> Les membres du personnel militaire, autant la F rég que la F rés (Classe B >180j) ayant des inquiétudes concernant le COVID-19 et leur santé personnelle.
> 
> À quoi sert cette ligne?
> À donner aux membres ayant des symptômes de COVID-19 de l’information concernant l’auto-isolation, les tests et les traitements.  Les symptômes du COVID-19 incluent de la fièvre, de la toux (sèche) et le souffle court.  Si vous présentez ces symptômes et que vous ne requérez pas d’attention médicale immédiate, vous DEVEZ appeler la ligne de soin de santé et parler avec une infirmière avant de vous présenter à la clinique.  Vous DEVEZ ABSOLUMENT vous mettre en auto-isolation en attendant de recevoir d’autres instructions.
> 
> À quoi est-ce que la ligne ne sert PAS?
> - Prendre un rendez-vous – Appelez votre commis d’UPSS pour savoir comment prendre un rendez-vous (UPSS1 – 5360/5353, UPSS2 – 7122/3647, UPSS3 – 7182)
> - Les renouvellements de médicaments prescrits – Veuillez appeler la pharmacie pour les renouvellements de médicaments prescrits (ext. 2410)
> - Donner des avis médicaux/évaluations pour les membres civils de la famille/public en général – Pour ces derniers, veuillez appeler Santé et bien-être Ontario (1-866-797-0000) ou votre fournisseur de soins local
> - Si vous êtes le représentant d’une unité qui a des questions concernant les limitations ou les soins de vos subordonnés, veuillez continuer de lier avec l’IPS de votre UPSS
> 
> Veuillez noter que si vous avez une urgence médicale, vous pouvez appeler le 911 et/ou vous présenter à l’urgence de votre hôpital local.


----------



## garb811

Remius said:
			
		

> It%u2019s about minimizing contact.  Once I%u2019m done I throw them out.  Then wash, wipe down stuff when I get in.
> 
> Edit: just read that it doesn%u2019t uhelp much,  thanks Garb811.  I wouldn't have checked otherwise.


Dropped into a store this evening to pick up a couple things. The entrances had employees stationed there manually dispensing hand sanitizer to everyone who came in. Not perfect because who knows what people are doing with their hands once they are in the store, but it's a good start.


----------



## Remius

garb811 said:
			
		

> Dropped into a store this evening to pick up a couple things. The entrances had employees stationed there manually dispensing hand sanitizer to everyone who came in. Not perfect because who knows what people are doing with their hands once they are in the store, but it's a good start.



Was like that on the cruise I took in January.


----------



## BDTyre

From my Course Officer:

Division has approved all members of the reserve force to be paid out for any missed scheduled training due to the corona virus. This will include Wednesday nights, Exercises, and additionally for the courses, the two missed training weekends. This will be actioned at the unit clerk level – therefore no pay sheets will need to be signed (This COULD change, I will advise soonest if any action on your part is required) The next open pay period will be for mid-April, you can expect this to automatically appear on your pay slips then


----------



## Weinie

Colin P said:
			
		

> In Walmart today, lady in front of me was handling all of the _*Celery*_, I politely said "It would be best not to touch them all or pick them up with a plastic bag", she got very snippy with me and _*stalked*_ off. Sorry but these times need different approaches: "Where are the possible transmission points? How do I limit them?"



Well done you...hands clapping emoji


----------



## Blackadder1916

Colin P said:
			
		

> In Walmart today, lady in front of me was . . .



In Walmart today, I cleared my throat to indicate my presence to a couple who were blocking my access to an item.  They scattered at the sound.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> In Walmart today, I cleared my throat to indicate my presence to a couple who were blocking my access to an item.  They scattered at the sound.



'In Walmart today...' is probably what many sick people answer when they are asked the question 'Where did you pick up that COVID 19 infection?' 

I'm here till Tuesday, try the veal ;D


----------



## Weinie

In Food Basics today. They distributed a flyer last night that promoted "TP" for sale.

They open at 0800. I arrived at 0750 (to mark my maps of course)

At 0800 scene was like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgXj-GvPGWo

By 0801, it was all over. 6 skids of TP obliterated, several (masked) people in confrontations.

Oh the humanity


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Doctor Who Helped Defeat Smallpox Explains What's Coming

Epidemiologist Larry Brilliant, who warned of pandemic in 2006, says we can beat the novel coronavirus—but first, we need lots more testing.

Larry Brilliant says he doesn’t have a crystal ball. But 14 years ago, Brilliant, the epidemiologist who helped eradicate smallpox, spoke to a TED audience and described what the next pandemic would look like. At the time, it sounded almost too horrible to take seriously. “A billion people would get sick," he said. “As many as 165 million people would die. There would be a global recession and depression, and the cost to our economy of $1 to $3 trillion would be far worse for everyone than merely 100 million people dying, because so many more people would lose their jobs and their health care benefits, that the consequences are almost unthinkable.”
Now the unthinkable is here, and Brilliant, the Chairman of the board of Ending Pandemics, is sharing expertise with those on the front lines. We are a long way from 100 million deaths due to the novel coronavirus, but it has turned our world upside down. Brilliant is trying not to say “I told you so” too often. But he did tell us so, not only in talks and writings, but as the senior technical advisor for the pandemic horror film Contagion, now a top streaming selection for the homebound. Besides working with the World Health Organization in the effort to end smallpox, Brilliant, who is now 75, has fought flu, polio, and blindness; once led Google’s nonprofit wing, Google.org; co-founded the conferencing system the Well; and has traveled with the Grateful Dead.

We talked by phone on Tuesday. At the time, President Donald Trump’s response to the crisis had started to change from “no worries at all” to finally taking more significant steps to stem the pandemic. Brilliant lives in one of the six Bay Area counties where residents were ordered to shelter in place. When we began the conversation, he’d just gotten off the phone with someone he described as high government official, who asked Brilliant “How the fuck did we get here?” I wanted to hear how we’ll get out of here. The conversation has been edited and condensed.

Steven Levy: I was in the room in 2006 when you gave that TED talk. Your wish was “Help Me Stop Pandemics.” You didn't get your wish, did you?

Larry Brilliant: No, I didn't get that wish at all, although the systems that I asked for have certainly been created and are being used. It's very funny because we did a movie, Contagion—

We're all watching that movie now.

People say Contagion is prescient. We just saw the science. The whole epidemiological community has been warning everybody for the past 10 or 15 years that it wasn't a question of whether we were going to have a pandemic like this. It was simply when. It's really hard to get people to listen. I mean, Trump pushed out the admiral on the National Security Council, who was the only person at that level who's responsible for pandemic defense. With him went his entire downline of employees and staff and relationships. And then Trump removed the [early warning] funding for countries around the world.

I've heard you talk about the significance that this is a “novel” virus.

It doesn't mean a fictitious virus. It’s not like a novel or a novella.

Too bad.

It means it's new. That there is no human being in the world that has immunity as a result of having had it before. That means it’s capable of infecting 7.8 billion of our brothers and sisters.

https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-interview-larry-brilliant-smallpox-epidemiologist/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I went for a drive in the mid evening. A fairly long drive. I drove through areas which typically have a lot of activity, even in the cooler months. 

In approximately 1.5-2hrs I saw under 15 people. A few individuals, and a couple of small groups.

It was eerily peaceful, especially the areas full of bright, colourful lights and signs.

Being entirely serious here—I’m wondering if police/emergency services will have heightened percentages of domestic calls, if they haven’t noticed any increase yet.  :-\


----------



## medicineman

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Being entirely serious here—I’m wondering if police/emergency services will have heightened percentages of domestic calls, if they haven’t noticed any increase yet.  :-\



There is serious concern on Twitter about people in abusive relationships having enforced contact with abusers due to quarantines...

MM


----------



## brihard

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I went for a drive in the mid evening. A fairly long drive. I drove through areas which typically have a lot of activity, even in the cooler months.
> 
> In approximately 1.5-2hrs I saw under 15 people. A few individuals, and a couple of small groups.
> 
> It was eerily peaceful, especially the areas full of bright, colourful lights and signs.
> 
> Being entirely serious here—I’m wondering if police/emergency services will have heightened percentages of domestic calls, if they haven’t noticed any increase yet.  :-\



I suspect we will. My wife and I were discussing exactly that today; people who normally spend a fair bit of time out of the house to keep tensions down with a volatile family member may not have the chance now. Add to that a ton of people laid off, lots of underlying stress...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> I suspect we will. My wife and I were discussing exactly that today; people who normally spend a fair bit of time out of the house to keep tensions down with a volatile family member may not have the chance now. Add to that a ton of people laid off, lots of underlying stress...



OTOH.... 

How Isaac Newton Made Social Distancing Work for Him

Newton did critical early work while avoiding the plague

Right about now, the phrase “social distancing” is in a lot more people’s vocabularies than it was last week (or last month, or last year). But while the phrase itself might be new, the idea of isolating oneself from all but the most critical of tasks so as to avoid infection during a pandemic is a much older concept. So, take heart, everyone who’s in a self-imposed quarantine: you’re following in the footsteps of some great minds who have engaged in a similar practice.

Among those great minds? Sir Isaac Newton. At The Washington Post, Gillian Brockell explored the period in 1665 when Newton — then a student — went through his own period of social distancing. This was during the time of the Great Plague of London — the same plague that inspired Daniel Defoe’s A Journal of the Plague Year.

Newton left Cambridge returned to his family’s home in Cambridge, where he had long stretches of time to work alone on various questions that had been on his mind. While there, he had a breakthrough regarding the nature of motion and gravity — a narrative you might already be familiar with.

But that wasn’t all that Newton accomplished in isolation. According to Brockell’s article, Newton came up with vital early theories of both optics and calculus during this period. All of Newton’s work paid off in a big way:

Newton returned to Cambridge in 1667, theories in hand. Within six months, he was made a fellow; two years later, a professor.

And while not all of us will develop new branches of mathematics or revitalize science, it’s encouraging to be reminded that times of isolation can lead to bold and important thoughts. Who knows? Maybe someone sitting at home right now is about to change the world for the better.

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/history/how-isaac-newton-made-social-distancing-work-for-him


----------



## stellarpanther

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Just got word from my Course O that div has authorized payment for any days missed, including courses and parade nights. I will post more details when not mobile. Don't know if other divisions are the same. Stellarpanther may be interested in this...


They're doing things to get them paid. Half a days pay for example to check in and say he's safe.


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I’m wondering if police/emergency services will have heightened percentages of domestic calls, if they haven’t noticed any increase yet.  :-\



With the social and economic factors mentioned, I imagine there would be.

Also, with "shelter in place", a possible increase in "welfare checks" ( not cheques ), called in by concerned third parties at all hours through the 9-1-1 system.

People involved in a welfare check didn’t ask for help, don’t know that help is coming and might be altered from clinical or organic causes. Although not common, you can be met with hostility. 

Possibly even self-defense inspired violence. Those are normal, rational and reasonable responses to someone forcing their way into a home. Especially at night.

For patients who generate multiple 9-1-1 welfare checks, the goal shouldn’t be making a transport or no transport decision. 

Better to refer them to the community paramedic program for scheduled home visits.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Recovering COVID-19 patient describes what it was like to have the virus*
> 
> _David Anzarouth is going public to persuade others to take the novel coronavirus seriously_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Anzarouth knew it could happen to anyone but never thought it would happen to him.
> 
> The fit 25-year-old living in Toronto didn't worry about taking his vacation to South Beach in Miami, Fla., in early March.
> 
> But 10 days later, he found himself sitting in an isolated emergency room at Toronto General Hospital, wearing a mask and feeling "the most incredible pain that I've ever experienced" as he was tested for COVID-19.
> 
> A day later, the former McMaster University student learned he was infected with the virus that has led to massive disruptions in Canada and around the world as governments scramble to limit its impact.
> 
> "I can't put into words how different this feels than anything I've ever experienced before," Anzarouth told CBC News.
> 
> 
> *Partying with thousands and sharing accommodation*
> 
> He arrived in Miami on March 5 with his friend to take part in the Winter Party festival. It wasn't his first time there. Anzarouth knew what to expect — a week full of lasers, lights, music and dancing.
> 
> At the time, COVID-19 cases in Canada had just started appearing.
> 
> "It was definitely on everybody's mind but … at the time, we thought, 'Let's not lose all this money,' I myself have been needing a vacation, so I said 'Let's go,'" Anzarouth said.
> 
> After a week of nightlife among thousands of people, travelling with a group of about 20 and sharing a hotel room with three others, including a friend from Toronto, Anzarouth flew back on March 11.
> 
> That's when things started to change. He said he felt "drugged" as if he was "completely out of it" during his Air Canada flight, AC1977, directly to Toronto Pearson Airport.
> 
> "At that point, [airport staff] were only asking if I went to China within the last 14 days or Italy," Anzarouth said.
> 
> "They weren't doing any sort of medical checks. They weren't doing anything further."
> 
> Anzarouth went straight to his apartment on Yonge Street, where he lives alone.
> 
> Then, one of his friends sent a message in their group chat saying he was ill. It prompted Anzarouth to email his boss at Toronto's TD Bank North Tower and ask to work from home. He says his supervisor obliged.
> 
> 
> *'The most incredible pain I've ever experienced'*
> 
> The next evening on March 12, the virus hit him full force.
> 
> "The minute I woke up, I was drenched in a pool of sweat. I was shaking. I was so cold. My head was pounding. It was something like I've never experienced before," Anzarouth said.
> 
> "It was the most incredible pain I've ever experienced ... My body felt like I had been flattened."
> 
> He didn't know what was wrong, but whatever it was had left Anzarouth debilitated and bedridden until Saturday evening, two days later.
> 
> Still, he couldn't stomach a slice of toast or hold himself up in the shower.
> 
> "There were points where I thought I might need to call 911 and to get picked up and to go to a hospital," Anzarouth said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That night, his mouth and throat began to feel parched, and he struggled to breathe as he lay in bed, sleeping for no longer than 30 minutes at a time.
> 
> The next morning, Sunday, March 15, Anzarouth started to get answers. An email viewed by CBC News shows the organizers from the Winter Party festival discovered multiple attendees had tested positive for COVID-19 and alerted other guests. The organizers verified the email.
> 
> "At that point I thought, 'I need to do something now,'" he said.
> 
> 
> *Quickly isolated in hospital*
> 
> That night, he put on a mask he picked up from the airport and called an Uber to take him to Toronto General Hospital.
> 
> He said he was out of the waiting area within 25 minutes and placed in a holding room while staff cleaned a different empty room for him to stay in.
> 
> After that, Anzarouth said two doctors and a nurse spoke to him from behind a closed door. When they tested him for various strains of influenza and X-rayed his chest for pneumonia, each was covered in a full gown from head-to-toe.
> 
> "The final swab for COVID-19 was an incredibly painful swab they stick far up one of your nostrils," Anzarouth said.
> 
> He left the hospital that night, not touching anything and returning to his apartment.
> 
> Less than 24 hours later, the doctor called back — Anzarouth had COVID-19.
> 
> "There's no one to blame … I understand that I put myself into a place where I risked my health," he said.
> 
> A document viewed by CBC News shows the University Health Network asked Anzarouth's employer to have him work from home. TD Bank also told CBC News it is "aware of a positive COVID-19 test of a TD colleague" who "self-isolated upon return from travel and did not come to work."
> 
> 
> *'This is something that's going to take all of us to fix'*
> 
> Four days after learning he is infected, Anzarouth is still recovering.
> 
> He's taken some acetaminophen to help dull the symptoms, but there is no treatment yet for COVID-19. His body has to recover on its own. His friend, meanwhile, hasn't experienced any symptoms at all.
> 
> On Thursday evening, Anzarouth shared his story on social media.
> 
> While COVID-19 can manifest differently in different people, and some have reported much milder symptoms than Anzarouth, he is hoping his story will catch the attention of those who still don't take the virus seriously and underline the importance of social distancing practices, such as avoiding unnecessary travel and staying two metres away from others.
> 
> "It could happen to anyone," he said.
> 
> "This is something that's going to affect all of us. This is something that's going to take all of us to fix."
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/coronavirus-patient-1.5502501


----------



## Jarnhamar

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Just got word from my Course O that div has authorized payment for any days missed, including courses and parade nights. I will post more details when not mobile. Don't know if other divisions are the same. Stellarpanther may be interested in this...



Miraculously reserve units report "100% attendance" on parade nights and weekend ex's.  ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/buckingham-palace-changing-guard-cancelled-17953569

Buckingham Palace Changing of the Guard cancelled to stop spread of coronavirus


> By Ellie McKinnell  11:50, 20 MAR 2020 UPDATED 12:27, 20 MAR 2020
> 
> The world famous Changing of the Guard will no longer be taking place at Buckingham Palace, St James's Palace or Windsor Castle in a bid to help stop the spread of coronavirus.
> 
> The spectacle will not be taking place 'until further notice' as the Government advises against mass gatherings.
> 
> An official statement released on Friday (March 20) said: "It has been agreed that the ceremonial of the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace, St James's Palace and Windsor Castle will be postponed until further notice.
> 
> "Advice will be reviewed on an ongoing basis, with a view to restarting when appropriate."
> 
> The legendary event is a highlight for tourists coming to London, drawing huge crowds to Buckingham Palace daily.
> 
> The ceremonial part won't be taking part, but guards will of course still be changing, known as an Administrative Guard Mount. This happens relatively regularly, for example when there's heavy rain.
> 
> The soldiers' operational role will be the same, with sentries posted at the palaces, ever watchful and ready.
> 
> This news comes the day after the Queen left her Central London palace to stay at Windsor Castle and self-isolate with Prince Philip.
> 
> The Royal couple will be based at the castle with a reduced number of staff as a precaution, and will be following the advice of their medical household and the Government.
> 
> The Queen also released a statement urging the nation to work together as one and praising the work of the scientists, medics and emergency staff.
> 
> The statement said: "As Philip and I arrive at Windsor, we know that many individuals and families across the United Kingdom, and around the world, are entering a period of great concern and uncertainty."
> 
> It went on to add: "At times such as these, I am reminded that our nation’s history has been forged by people and communities coming together to work as one, concentrating our combined efforts with a focus on the common goal."




On thinking of our good Queen (and her Greek boyfriend) naturally the comparison to the war came to mind and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjKo6Pzr54g kept ringing through my head.

But seriously, all the best hopes and wishes go out to Her Majesty for her safety.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Da4rS32i2Q


----------



## brihard

Holy crap. Trudeau just announced that Can / US have reciprocally agreed that any 'irregulars' crossing the border will be returned to the other country. AKA, Roxham is closed. I'm curious to see how this works out in implementation, and how it's going to work with our laws regarding asylum claims. This could be either really good news or the start of a major gong show.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Sobeys installs Plexiglass shields, other measures, to fight spread of coronavirus*
> 
> https://business.financialpost.com/news/retail-marketing/sobeys-installs-plexiglas-shields-other-measures-to-fight-spread-of-covid-19
> 
> https://twitter.com/sobeys/status/1240926053045919749


----------



## dimsum

Brihard said:
			
		

> Holy crap. Trudeau just announced that Can / US have reciprocally agreed that any 'irregulars' crossing the border will be returned to the other country. AKA, Roxham is closed. I'm curious to see how this works out in implementation, and how it's going to work with our laws regarding asylum claims. This could be either really good news or the start of a major gong show.



Can you share a link?  I haven't seen it on the news yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Miraculously reserve units report "100% attendance" on parade nights and weekend ex's.  ;D



If it was my guys I would guess it would be more like 50% because it would be impossible to get in touch with the other 50% through any one of about 30 communications channels....


----------



## Remius

Looks like the inmates are no longer in control of the asylum in Florida


https://nypost.com/2020/03/19/florida-governor-says-partys-over-for-spring-breakers-amid-coronavirus-crisis/


----------



## Remius

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Can you share a link?  I haven't seen it on the news yet.



It was literally just announced on tv.


----------



## brihard

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Can you share a link?  I haven't seen it on the news yet.



Live presser that just wrapped up. Give it 15-20 minutes and it'll be all over the media.


----------



## 211RadOp

And here you go

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/trudeau-unveils-new-measures-to-mobilize-industry-in-covid-19-fight-bring-canadians-home-1.4861302



> Trudeau also announced new protocols for irregular migrants, who will now be turned around if they appear at the border, rather than allowing them in and isolating them, as the plan had been earlier this week.


----------



## dapaterson

Much like how only Nixon could go to China, only the Liberal party could turn away refugee claimants at the border.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Can you share a link?  I haven't seen it on the news yet.



The PM has been having a live press everyday at 1100 EDT shown on all major networks.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> Holy crap. Trudeau just announced that Can / US have reciprocally agreed that any 'irregulars' crossing the border will be returned to the other country. AKA, Roxham is closed. I'm curious to see how this works out in implementation, and how it's going to work with our laws regarding asylum claims. This could be either really good news or the start of a major gong show.



Only took a huge pandemic to take action on this....  :facepalm:


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Only took a huge pandemic to take action on this....  :facepalm:



I need to bite my tongue. Suffice to say I am glad to see this measure being put into place, and I hope it doesn't stay temporary.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Holy crap. Trudeau just announced that Can / US have reciprocally agreed that any 'irregulars' crossing the border will be returned to the other country. AKA, Roxham is closed. I'm curious to see how this works out in implementation, and how it's going to work with our laws regarding asylum claims. This could be either really good news or the start of a major gong show.



It will be interesting to see how the USCBP/Border patrol handle this because, in essence, Canada and the US have just nullified an international treaty.  If not done correctly, the asylum seekers will just move east or west between ports of entry and cross anyways.  And, when they cross at new points, there will not be a CBSA/RCMP presence to screen them for everything from COVID-19 to criminality or terrorist ties.  Then, they will wait until the inland offices open again and make their claims there.  My money is on "gong show".


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see how the USCBP/Border patrol handle this because, in essence, Canada and the US have just nullified an international treaty.  If not done correctly, the asylum seekers will just move east or west between ports of entry and cross anyways.  And, when they cross at new points, there will not be a CBSA/RCMP presence to screen them for everything from COVID-19 to criminality or terrorist ties.  Then, they will wait until the inland offices open again and make their claims there.  My money is on "gong show".



Yup, potentially correct. However this will slam the door shut on anyone hoping to come across and claim asylum for the purpose of getting healthcare pending determination (including American citizens). I think closing access to the various benefits and services will pretty quickly dry up most of the stream...

The reality is the border has always been porous to criminals, smugglers, etc. Hopefully this returns us closer to status-quo-pre-Roxham.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> This phone/txt/email tag should be interesting over the next few weeks. I already have impatient supervisors doing my job after the information they want provided from me doesn't get to them fast enough. Nothing like micro-managing your people electronically. "Please give me xxxxx info from everyone in your crew NLT 1500." Sure, no problem as I gather the info. 30min later on a crew wide mail from my supervisor: "I need everyones xxxxx info, please email me directly @ xxxxxx.ca". This is only day one.
> 
> I don't think most young-lings in this organisation are grasping this idea.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'll see your email ack and raise you a chain of command that tells you to call everyone you emailed (regardless if they responded) to confirm they read the email- and repeat the points.
> Then inform the CoC of numbers you contacted so they can populate a spread sheet.



A really late after-thought...sorry.

I see how it could be redundant for sure, going by your experiences above. But going back to Quirky’s and mine original comments, I’d like to think, also, that there’s at least a bit of concern factored into things. By CoC requesting “Ack” it’s also letting them know that people are accounted for, since they’re not being seen every day as normal. Who knows what people are dealing with? Work may have been the only thing keeping them grounded.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Prepare for multiple waves of COVID-19 over 12 months: military chief to troops
Gen. Jonathan Vance says the CAF is planning for the 'worst-case scenario'
Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Mar 20, 2020 10:54 AM ET | Last Updated: 17 minutes ago


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> The reality is the border has always been porous to criminals, smugglers, etc.



The US has a very well developed and sophisticated surveillance system to detect southbound traffic.  Maybe this initiative will include more reporting of northbound traffic to us for possible interception.  The question now is what resources can be brought to bear to do those interceptions.


----------



## medicineman

Gov't of MB has declared a provincial state of emergency - https://news.gov.mb.ca/news/?archive=&item=47137

MM


----------



## Quirky

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> A really late after-thought...sorry.
> 
> I see how it could be redundant for sure, going by your experiences above. But going back to Quirky’s and mine original comments, I’d like to think, also, that there’s at least a bit of concern factored into things. By CoC requesting “Ack” it’s also letting them know that people are accounted for, since they’re not being seen every day as normal. Who knows what people are dealing with? Work may have been the only thing keeping them grounded.



It's just a method of control, the CoC has lost that ability with everyone social distancing themselves. Daily check-ins are fine, via txt/groupchat/email whatever way they want to do it, but confirming you got an email is silliness with the advent of read receipts. Whatsapp is a great tool if the person using it knows how, you can easily check to see if the delivered message was read, similar to FB messenger. If the section is 100 people, thats 100 acks you need to sort through and check off.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:
			
		

> It's just a method of control, the CoC has lost that ability with everyone social distancing themselves. Daily check-ins are fine, via txt/groupchat/email whatever way they want to do it, but confirming you got an email is silliness with the advent of read receipts. Whatsapp is a great tool if the person using it knows how, you can easily check to see if the delivered message was read, similar to FB messenger. If the section is 100 people, thats 100 acks you need to sort through and check off.



A scary thought for you....

One (clearly nuts) boss I had, a few years ago, tried to figure out how to charge people for not responding to one of his (many, usually ridiculous) emails.

I'll just leave that right there....


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Italy coronavirus deaths surge by 627 in a day, lifting total death toll to 4,032*
> 
> The death toll from an outbreak of coronavirus in Italy has leapt by 627 to 4,032, officials said on Friday, an increase of 18.4% — by far the largest daily rise in absolute terms since the contagion emerged a month ago.
> 
> On Thursday, Italy overtook China as the country to register most deaths from the highly contagious virus.
> 
> Until Friday, Italy had never recorded more than 475 deaths in a single day, while China, where the contagion has slowed sharply, has never reported more than 150.
> 
> The total number of cases in Italy rose to 47,021 from a previous 41,035, an increase of 14.6%, the Civil Protection Agency said.
> 
> The hardest-hit northern region of Lombardy remains in a critical situation, with 2,549 deaths and 22,264 cases.
> 
> Of those originally infected nationwide, 5,129 had fully recovered on Friday compared to 4,440 the day before. There were 2,655 people in intensive care against a previous 2,498.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-tally/italy-coronavirus-deaths-surge-by-627-in-a-day-lifting-total-death-toll-to-4032-idUSKBN2172VL


----------



## Jarnhamar

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Prepare for multiple waves of COVID-19 over 12 months: military chief to troops
> Gen. Jonathan Vance says the CAF is planning for the 'worst-case scenario'
> Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Mar 20, 2020 10:54 AM ET | Last Updated: 17 minutes ago



I wonder what Gen Vance considers a worse-case scenario.

Sections rotating out of grocery store security duty ensuring people don't panic and loot?


----------



## MilEME09

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder what Gen Vance considers a worse-case scenario.
> 
> Sections rotating out of grocery store security duty ensuring people don't panic and loot?



All depends on what the requests from the provinces are, if police do get overwhelmed then yes


----------



## medicineman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder what Gen Vance considers a worse-case scenario.
> 
> Sections rotating out of grocery store security duty ensuring people don't panic and loot?



I'd be more worried about getting a little phone call saying "You're no longer retired..."

MM


----------



## dapaterson

If you're on the Supp Res...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Sky News in an Italian hospital

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=_J60fQr0GWo&feature=emb_logo


----------



## stellarpanther

Has anyone heard anything being discussed about what happens after this 3 week period of isolating/working at home is over for Reg Force?


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Has anyone heard anything being discussed about what happens after this 3 week period of isolating/working at home is over for Reg Force?


It's going to be a lot longer than 3 weeks...planning is happening on a "rolling" three week period.


----------



## stellarpanther

garb811 said:
			
		

> It's going to be a lot longer than 3 weeks...planning is happening on a "rolling" three week period.



I agree completely, I was just curious if there are any discussions about what happens next.  Keep things the way they currently or other options?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I agree completely, I was just curious if there are any discussions about what happens next.  Keep things the way they currently or other options?



Short answer to that; ' it depends '.

Easier way for us at the tactical level to go on every day, IMO?  Keep your Lines of comm's operating, follow direction from CofC and don't make extra work for them, have your kit ready, think of what the 'worst case scenario' for your particular unit might be, prepare for that mentally.  Have your kit and shit ready for if/when the phones rings.  I don't think anyone knows what Monday, a week from Monday, or a month from Monday will look like.

 :2c:


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Mandatory self-isolation now law as Sask. announces 6 more COVID-19 cases*
> 
> Mandatory self-isolation following international travel is now law in Saskatchewan after the announcement of six more COVID-19 cases on Friday.
> 
> 
> https://regina.ctvnews.ca/mandatory-self-isolation-now-law-as-sask-announces-6-more-covid-19-cases-1.4861706


----------



## AbdullahD

Any of you guys able to substantiate something I have heard...

Apparently their are plans or ideas that the RCMP and the CAF will be ised to implement travel bans and Quarantines.. so if you do not have a "legitimate" reason to travel you wont be allowed to leave your home area. If you test positive for symptoms of Covid-19 and refuse to self isolate.. the CAF and RCMP will force you too...

Any legitimacy to this? Seems insane to me, but have to ask.. 
Abdullah


----------



## Haggis

AbdullahD:  the PM has said that nothing is off the table.  Remember his dad's "just watch me" moment?


----------



## stellarpanther

I know this would be viewed as drastic but using the military to force returning people to self isolate should have been an considered.  Station a couple CAF mbr's in front of someone's house to make sure they don't leave.  I have no doubt things will start spiking even more than they currently are in Canada in about a week from all the people returning from Florida and other locations.  I'm trustful to a fault most of the time, but I just don't think a lot of these same people who ignored the warning to go south for Spring Break will do as they are asked and self isolate.


----------



## AbdullahD

Haggis said:
			
		

> AbdullahD:  the PM has said that nothing is off the table.  Remember his dad's "just watch me" moment?



Fair, fair enough.

Never saw that before, quite interesting. 

Thanks
Abdullah


----------



## Cloud Cover

We don’t have anywhere enough police or military for that and the chickens will come home to roost.,


----------



## OceanBonfire

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> ... If you test positive for symptoms of Covid-19 and refuse to self isolate.. the CAF and RCMP will force you too...
> 
> Any legitimacy to this? Seems insane to me, but have to ask..
> Abdullah



Locals cops are already doing something close to it. A possibly infected person was not self-isolating and got "arrested" today (French article):

https://www.lapresse.ca/covid-19/202003/20/01-5265721-la-police-de-quebec-intervient-aupres-dune-personne-recalcitrante.php

Newfoundland imposed possible jail time 2 days ago:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/n-l-announces-strict-measures-including-jail-time-to-halt-the-spread-of-covid-19-1.4858499

It's not insane because too many people *do not care*.


----------



## MilEME09

CloudCover said:
			
		

> We don’t have anywhere enough police or military for that and the chickens will come home to roost.,



We couldn't station at homes, I see it more like a lock down and COIN Op style presence patrols, VPS's would make more sense to me.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The thing about Canada is in many places you can self-isolate while not being at home, walking in the forest, remote beach, etc. My brother and several people I know have hoofed it to their cabins and some people to their boats. Where it is an issue is in the more dense areas.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Italy to use army to enforce coronavirus lockdown in worst-hit region*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The president of Lombardy said on Friday the government had agreed to deploy the army in his region to enforce the lockdown against the coronavirus epidemic, which is not slowing down.
> 
> “(The request to use the army) has been accepted... and 114 soldiers will be on the ground throughout Lombardy... it is still too little, but it is positive,” Attilio Fontana told a news conference.
> 
> Lombardy has also asked the government to further tighten the restrictions already in place, which include the closure of all non-essential commercial activities and a ban on public gatherings.
> 
> Fontana, without giving numbers, added that contagion is still spreading in Lombardy, the Italian region which has so far registered by far the highest number of cases and deaths in Italy.
> 
> “Unfortunately we are not seeing a change of trend in the numbers, which are rising,” he said.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-army-idUSKBN2171ZA


----------



## Weinie

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> _*I know this would be viewed as drastic but using the military to force returning people to self isolate should have been an considered.  Station a couple CAF mbr's in front of someone's house to make sure they don't leave. *_ I have no doubt things will start spiking even more than they currently are in Canada in about a week from all the people returning from Florida and other locations.  I'm trustful to a fault most of the time, but I just don't think a lot of these same people who ignored the warning to go south for Spring Break will do as they are asked and self isolate.



Let's do some math. Lets just say that .1% of Canadians are out of the country right now =37,000 people (and the number alone in Florida is likely higher, but I digress.) So now we have 37,000 houses to guard across the country times 2 soldiers each, and lets be a-holes as leaders and give them 12 hour shifts instead of just 8. Where exactly are we going to come up with 148,000 soldiers?


----------



## MilEME09

Weinie said:
			
		

> Let's do some math. Lets just say that .1% of Canadians are out of the country right now =37,000 people (and the number alone in Florida is likely higher, but I digress.) So now we have 37,000 houses to guard across the country times 2 soldiers each, and lets be a-holes as leaders and give them 12 hour shifts instead of just 8. Where exactly are we going to come up with 148,000 soldiers?



Sup res? Call back anyone who has retired in the last 12 months? Not that it would happen.


----------



## Weinie

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Sup res? Call back anyone who has retired in the last 12 months? _*Not that it would happen.*_



Amen to that


----------



## stellarpanther

I don't know the specifics of how but China was tracking peoples movements somehow.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know the specifics of how but China was tracking peoples movements somehow.



google " social credit scores" and Chinese face recognition


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know the specifics of how but China was tracking peoples movements somehow.





			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> google " social credit scores" and Chinese face recognition


And...cellphones.  Believe it or not but businesses make a habit of tracking you in Canada as well. It's not just phone apps, "free" wifi is wonderful for you giving them all kinds of data about yourself voluntarily.  Even if you don't connect to their wifi network, your phone keeps pinging it if wifi is turned on and they can track the phone as you go about your business.


----------



## Kilted

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I know this would be viewed as drastic but using the military to force returning people to self isolate should have been an considered.  Station a couple CAF mbr's in front of someone's house to make sure they don't leave.  I have no doubt things will start spiking even more than they currently are in Canada in about a week from all the people returning from Florida and other locations.  I'm trustful to a fault most of the time, but I just don't think a lot of these same people who ignored the warning to go south for Spring Break will do as they are asked and self isolate.




Isn't that somewhat similar to what is going on at Trenton? Not that I am saying that every person who arrives in the country should be shipped off to a military base. It would be more logistically sound. The key word is more. I'm sure it would be next to impossible. And then there might be some s. 6 charter issues. Although with the Emergencies Act and the section one reasonable limits test there might be something that could be done. Let's be clear, I am not saying we should do this. I'm sure someone will come up with a long list of reasons for logistical reasons alone why we shouldn't do it, I'm just examing the extreme possibilities.


----------



## Kilted

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Doctor Who Helped Defeat Smallpox Explains What's Coming



Was that David Tennant or Matt Smith?

Sorry...I had to.


----------



## Weinie

Kilted said:
			
		

> Isn't that somewhat similar to what is going on at Trenton? Not that I am saying that every person who arrives in the country should be shipped off to a military base. It would be more logistically sound. The key word is more. I'm sure it would be next to impossible. And then there might be some s. 6 charter issues. Although with the Emergencies Act and the section one reasonable limits test there might be something that could be done. Let's be clear, I am not saying we should do this. I'm sure someone will come up with a long list of reasons for logistical reasons alone why we shouldn't do it, I'm just examing the extreme possibilities.


Let's begin. And the list isn't all that long.

IOT support this, we would have to take every Reg F, Reserve F, Supp Res, and the people who have retired in the last five years alone to establish the basic FG component. That would mean shutting down every HQ, Base, Wing, station, and every other hierarchal entity within the CAF, and deploy everyone, from Pte to General, somewhere. All C2, log/med/admin/IT sp would evaporate. All ops, along with SAR and  NORAD obligations would be desolated, along with any designation of CAF as a force of last resort.

Kinda extreme


----------



## Kilted

Weinie said:
			
		

> Let's begin. And the list isn't all that long.
> 
> IOT support this, we would have to take every Reg F, Reserve F, Supp Res, and the people who have retired in the last five years alone to establish the basic FG component. That would mean shutting down every HQ, Base, Wing, station, and every other hierarchal entity within the CAF, and deploy everyone, from Pte to General, somewhere. All C2, log/med/admin/IT sp would evaporate. All ops, along with SAR and  NORAD obligations would be desolated, along with any designation of CAF as a force of last resort.
> 
> Kinda extreme



My point was that it would be more doable than placing people outside of all the different houses.


----------



## GAP

I've not heard if Russia has been hit hard? Anybody with info on them?


----------



## medicineman

GAP said:
			
		

> I've not heard if Russia has been hit hard? Anybody with info on them?



We likely won't, since they're so busy trolling us on social media...conspiracy theorist in me wonders if they're to blame for the whole thing  8) 

MM


----------



## stellarpanther

GAP said:
			
		

> I've not heard if Russia has been hit hard? Anybody with info on them?



CNN did a live report from Moscow this morning and everyone is acting as if nothing was going on.  The Russian government is saying they've had very minimal cases.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I know this would be viewed as drastic but using the military to force returning people to self isolate should have been an considered.  Station a couple CAF mbr's in front of someone's house to make sure they don't leave.  I have no doubt things will start spiking even more than they currently are in Canada in about a week from all the people returning from Florida and other locations.  I'm trustful to a fault most of the time, but I just don't think a lot of these same people who ignored the warning to go south for Spring Break will do as they are asked and self isolate.



That will work great right up until an 18 year old rifleman butt strokes a 70 year old, mouthy and cantankerous, citizen right in front of a CBC reporter.

Just sayin'...


----------



## PuckChaser

You guys are looking at the problem the wrong way. If we just round everyone up and put them in some sort of camp, we'd need far less security manning.  While they are there, we could re-educate them about the evils of climate change and independent thought.

Or use the EPA dome from the Simpson's movie over a town. I vote we use Gagetown.


----------



## Kilted

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That will work great right up until an 18 year old rifleman butt strokes a 70 year old, mouthy and cantankerous, citizen right in front of a CBC reporter.
> 
> Just sayin'...



Unfortunately there is not very much time put towards training for type of thing or domestic ops in general. I remember 10 years ago my Brigade use to put aside one weekend ex a year for domestic ops. I even remember flying to Thunder Bay for a weekend ex.  Where they even let the entire exercise loose on the town in uniform on the Saturday night. I couldn't see that ever happening again, although there were no issues that I heard of.  I think if we are going to have to respond to this and other things like it in the future we need to give the troops an understanding ahead of time what is required for this type of operation.


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> CNN did a live report from Moscow this morning and everyone is acting as if nothing was going on.  The Russian government is saying they've had very minimal cases.




The Russian Government also claims not to have any homosexuals in Russia....


----------



## garb811

Kilted said:
			
		

> Unfortunately there is not very much time put towards training for type of thing or domestic ops in general. I remember 10 years ago my Brigade use to put aside one weekend ex a year for domestic ops. I even remember flying to Thunder Bay for a weekend ex.  Where they even let the entire exercise loose on the town in uniform on the Saturday night. I couldn't see that ever happening again, although there were no issues that I heard of.  I think if we are going to have to respond to this and other things like it in the future we need to give the troops an understanding ahead of time what is required for this type of operation.


It is unlikely the exercise you did 10 years ago was focused on Domestic Ops, even though it was held in Thunder Bay. During Afghanistan the realization hit that a large amount of our activities weren’t happening in the wide open expanses of the desert so at that point it became very common for both the Reg Force and Reserve to get out into our urban areas in preparation of going to Afghanistan.


----------



## Kirkhill

Re number of Canadians outside of Canada



> Canadian Expats. Nearly 2.8 million Canadians (more than 9% of all citizens of Canada) live outside their home country. Most Canadian expatriates live in the United States. LA and New York are the cities with high number of Canadian expats.
> 
> Canadian Expats - Expat Intelligence www.expatintelligence.com › Miscellaneous


----------



## Kilted

garb811 said:
			
		

> It is unlikely the exercise you did 10 years ago was focused on Domestic Ops, even though it was held in Thunder Bay. During Afghanistan the realization hit that a large amount of our activities weren’t happening in the wide open expanses of the desert so at that point it became very common for both the Reg Force and Reserve to get out into our urban areas in preparation of going to Afghanistan.



The scenario for the exercise was a severe ice storm.

https://news.ontario.ca/archive/en/2008/11/10/Testing-Province39s-Emergency-Response.html


----------



## OceanBonfire

GAP said:
			
		

> I've not heard if Russia has been hit hard? Anybody with info on them?





> *Sharp increase in Moscow pneumonia cases fuels fears over coronavirus statistics*
> 
> A reported sharp increase in pneumonia cases in the Russian capital and contradictory information around the issue is fuelling fears about the accuracy of official coronavirus data which remains much lower than many European countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia, which has a population of 144 million, has reported just 199 coronavirus cases and some doctors have questioned how far the official data reflects reality, given what they say is the patchy nature and quality of testing.
> 
> A sharp spike in pneumonia cases in Moscow, Russia’s biggest transport hub and a city with a population of around 13 million, has further raised doubts.
> 
> “I have a feeling they (the authorities) are lying to us,” said Anastasia Vasilyeva, head of Russia’s Doctor’s Alliance trade union.
> 
> The government says its statistics are accurate however, and President Vladimir Putin has complained that Russia is being targeted by fake news to sow panic.
> 
> The number of cases of pneumonia, which can be caused by coronavirus, increased by 37 percent in Moscow year-on-year in January, according to Rosstat, Russia’s statistics agency.
> 
> The data showed that the Russian capital, which has 98 confirmed cases of coronavirus, recorded 6,921 pneumonia cases in January, up from 5,058 the previous year. Nationwide pneumonia cases also spiked by over 3 percent year-on-year.
> 
> Yet Moscow’s own health department issued a statement on March 13 saying pneumonia cases in January and February were actually 8% and 7% lower than last year.
> 
> It did not respond when asked why its data was so different.
> 
> Asked about the discrepancy, Rosstat said it did not know where Moscow’s health department was sourcing its numbers or how it could have produced such a result.
> 
> “The idea that this pneumonia is coronavirus comes to mind,” said Vasilyeva. “There seem to be no other reasons for the rise,” she said.
> 
> Other doctors disagree.
> 
> “There is an explanation for this,” said Professor Vladimir Nikoforov, a prominent specialist in infectious diseases.
> 
> “The number of people seeking medical attention has risen due to anxiety among the population,” he said, saying people were seeking medical advice earlier than usual because they were worried about coronavirus. There were therefore more pneumonia diagnoses, he said.
> 
> Some Russians who recall the Soviet-era cover-up of the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident are less sure.
> 
> “I don’t believe the coronavirus numbers,” said Ekaterina, a Moscow accountant. “I remember what they told us about Chernobyl at the time. It’s only now that we’re finding out what really happened.”
> 
> On Thursday, Moscow authorities reported Russia’s first coronavirus-related death, a 79-year old woman, but later said she’d died of a blood clot. The government did not include her death in its daily coronavirus bulletin.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-coronavirus-health-russia/sharp-increase-in-moscow-pneumonia-cases-fuels-fears-over-coronavirus-statistics-idUSKBN216305


----------



## brihard

I'm relieved. My buddy made it off the ground in Istanbul, with the airport slamming closed with armed police behind him... Sounds like Turkey is starting to go full Turkey. He's over Slovakia now, landing in Toronto at about 1930. My wife and I are gonna convoy down in two vehicles and leave him one to make it home and isolate.

First useful thing I've been able to do so far.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Here are the articles in English about the infected person who got arrested for not staying self-isolated:



> *A woman who tested positive for COVID-19 was arrested in Quebec City after she left isolation*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quebec City police responded to a call Friday afternoon to halt a woman who had tested positive for COVID-19 and left her home where she was in isolation. She was arrested around 2 p.m.
> 
> According to SPVQ officer Martin Roy, the woman was stopped outside of the Limoilou neighbourhood of Quebec City after she left her home where she was in isolation.
> 
> “The person didn’t cause us any trouble and she followed us to the hospital,” said Roy.
> 
> According to the officer, the region’s health authority - the CIUSSS de la Capitale-Nationale - tried to contact the person at home by phone. The woman did not want to stay home, said Roy.
> 
> The CIUSSS then called police to report that she was not respecting her isolation, and the police sent a car to verify that she was at home.
> 
> The officers took all precautions including gloves and masks to ensure they were not infected, and escorted the woman to the COVID-19 screening clinic in Quebec City.
> 
> Roy said she cooperated completely and was not charged with any crime.
> 
> 
> *ENHANCED POLICE POWERS*
> 
> During the recently declared public health emergency, Quebec’s Public Health Act gives authorities greater powers if someone jeopardizes public health. Premier Francois Legault declared the 10-day emergency Mar. 14.
> 
> The SQ announced Friday that it has set up a special operation throughout Quebec to ensure safety during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> Officers from the provincial police service have been reassigned to “nerve centres in municipalities” to assist the public health agencies, the SQ said in a news release.
> 
> The SQ added that access to police stations is now restricted and those wanting to report to a station will be asked to pick up an outside phone. If there is no phone available, citizens are asked to call *4141 or 310-4141.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-police-arrest-covid-19-1.5505349
> 
> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/a-woman-who-tested-positive-for-covid-19-was-arrested-in-quebec-city-after-she-left-isolation-1.4862611


----------



## garb811

Kilted said:
			
		

> The scenario for the exercise was a severe ice storm.
> 
> https://news.ontario.ca/archive/en/2008/11/10/Testing-Province39s-Emergency-Response.html


Cool, thanks! I had forgotten about those.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Malaysia to deploy army amid movement curbs to contain coronavirus*
> 
> Malaysia will deploy the army from Sunday to assist police in enforcing a restricted movement order aimed at reining in the spread of a coronavirus, the government said.
> 
> Friday’s announcement follows curbs imposed on travel and businesses this week, as infections spiked to 900, with two dead. The majority of cases have been linked to a gathering of 16,000 Muslim missionaries late last month.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-malaysia/malaysia-to-deploy-army-amid-movement-curbs-to-contain-coronavirus-idUSKBN2170FL





> *Jordan blows sirens for start of nationwide curfew to combat coronavirus: witnesses*
> 
> Jordan blew sirens at the start of a nationwide curfew on Saturday, limiting the mobility of its 10 million citizens indefinitely to combat the spread of coronavirus, witnesses and officials said.
> 
> Anyone violating the curfew, which severely restricts movement beyond emergencies and essential services, can be jailed up to a year, the army said.
> 
> “Anyone going outside will be subjecting themselves to punishment,” Bassam Talhouni, Justice Minister told Jordan’s Al Mamlaka news channel.
> 
> The curfew, in which thousands of soldiers have been deployed inside cities and on main highways across the country, is in place until further notice.
> 
> Armored police vehicles roamed the streets of main cities, calling on people to heed warnings not to leave their homes, witnesses said.
> 
> Streets across the capital and main cities were deserted, with shops shuttered as police patrolled neighborhoods and the army manned checkpoints, witnesses said.
> 
> Jordan has closed land and sea border crossings with Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Israel, and suspended all incoming and outgoing flights since Tuesday.
> 
> King Abdullah enacted an emergency decree giving the government sweeping powers to enforce an army-imposed curfew and other measures that restrict civil and political liberties.
> 
> Health Minister Saad Jaber said on Friday that Jordan had 85 confirmed cases of coronavirus, after 15 new cases were identified, with officials warning that numbers could rise.
> 
> The curfew came after officials criticized the presence of many people on the streets even after warnings to stay at home, a ban on gatherings and public worship, and suspension of work for civil servants and private companies.
> 
> “Unfortunately we have seen recklessness in scenes of shopping and moving around in the streets. These pose a grave danger to our efforts to contain the epidemic,” cabinet minister and government spokesman Amjad Adailah said.
> 
> Panicky shoppers went on a last-minute shopping sprees before the start the curfew, leading to long queues at bakeries and foods stalls.
> 
> The government has said the kingdom, which imports most of its food and is an energy importer, has a strategic stockpile of commodities for several months alongside several months of gasoline and petroleum products.
> 
> The monetary authorities have also in recent days taken several moves, including delaying loan payments, slashing interest rates and injecting liquidity, to help cushion the energy importer from the economic impact of the crisis.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-jordan/jordan-blows-sirens-for-start-of-nationwide-curfew-to-combat-coronavirus-witnesses-idUSKBN21808M





> *Bulgaria to mobilise military to help with coronavirus measures*
> 
> Bulgaria’s parliament voted after a heated debate on Friday to allow the military to help implement measures to curb the coronavirus, with a mandate to use physical force if absolutely necessary.
> 
> The armed forces will be mobilized to assist civilian authorities in controlling public movement, with authorization to stop vehicles and persons until police authorities arrive and to use physical force if it is deemed absolutely necessary.
> 
> The decision was not taken lightly.
> 
> “A virus cannot be beaten with a machine gun,” said Krum Zarkov from the opposition Socialist party - one of the 55 deputies who voted against the deployment of the army.
> 
> Zarkov called the measure unjustified, but it passed with 89 votes for, 55 against and two abstentions.
> 
> As of Friday, Bulgaria had 129 confirmed cases of the coronavirus, and three deaths. It has introduced a state of emergency, closed schools, restaurants and bars and banned all foreign and domestic holiday trips until April 13.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-bulgaria/bulgaria-to-mobilise-military-to-help-with-coronavirus-measures-idUSL8N2BD6FB





> *Albania deploys troops to enforce 40-hour coronavirus curfew*
> 
> Albania’s government deployed the army to enforce a strict 40-hour curfew starting on Saturday to fight the coronavirus after people widely flouted previous measures aimed at stemming its spread.
> 
> About 120,000 Albanians came back from Italy - the world’s worst-hit country - soon before Albania severed air and sea links with its neighbor across the Adriatic Sea 12 days ago.
> 
> So far, 76 people have tested positive for the coronavirus with two deaths recorded, but officials are anxious to avert a sudden jump in infections that would strain limited public health services.
> 
> Despite orders to stay at home for most of the day and bans on travel, many Albanians have continued to go out jogging in groups, play dominos in the street and ignore recommendations to keep their distance in queues.
> 
> Prime Minister Edi Rama and opposition leader Lulzim Basha, in a rare show of unity, appealed to people to respect the 40-hour lockdown starting at 1 p.m. (1200 GMT) on Saturday.
> 
> “Everyone will stay inside after 13:00. Police and the Armed Forces will use force against whoever breaks the law, including pensioners, and will use water canons and tear gas if need be,” Rama said on a social media live feed.
> 
> The only exception to the curfew will be for emergencies.
> 
> As Rama spoke, police sirens could be heard, marking the start of the curfew.
> 
> On Saturday morning, shoppers in the capital, Tirana, streamed into markets to buy food, paying scant attention to distancing measures.
> 
> Schools, universities, mosques, churches, bars, restaurants and gyms have been shut down, except for supermarkets and pharmacies during certain hours. Classes are being conducted online.
> 
> Albania is preparing two more hospitals in expectation of more cases. At present, four coronavirus patients are stable in intensive care at the country’s specialist infectious diseases hospital.
> 
> Two former patients at the hospital have recovered, said Eugena Tomini of the Public Health Institute.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-albania/albania-deploys-troops-to-enforce-40-hour-coronavirus-curfew-idUSKBN2180NW


----------



## AbdullahD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You guys are looking at the problem the wrong way. If we just round everyone up and put them in some sort of camp, we'd need far less security manning.  While they are there, we could re-educate them about the evils of climate change and independent thought.
> 
> Or use the EPA dome from the Simpson's movie over a town. I vote we use Gagetown.



Great.. Trudeau just read this. Look for his press release at 15:00 tonday. They decided to use Winnipeg as a start for the camp. Greta is apparently the keynote speaker too.

Thanks a lot.
Abdullah

P.s lol


----------



## Quirky

I'm going to play a little devil's advocate, maybe tin-foil hat guy, to discuss something looming in the very near future - the economy. It will be absolutely crippled. How many millions of Canadians were already a pay check away from insolvency? The collateral damage of doing nothing is far less detrimental in my opinion. Even if 2 million people died from this virus globally, that is still less collateral damage than the outcome from what we are doing to our economy right now. The government just cut a $27+ billion deal to "help" people (keep them from being homeless for a few extra months). How much would it have cost to just tell any immune compromised people to self isolate themselves from the world while things continue to operate. Set up a task force, per se (Army, Reserves, whatever), of people that can bring food and supplies to these compromised people that have to isolate to protect themselves. Instead of isolating the other 95% of people, how many people would actually die or stress our healthcare system, if we had a system in place to just fully isolate compromised people? This is just insane what we are doing right now, there are so many people that will never recover from this financially. If the current death rate trend continues, we will conclude with 100 deaths in Canada, in 6-8 months - we will have thousands more people commit suicide due to economic or a combination of factors. (Canada averages 4k suicide deaths a year). This is the best case scenario. The worst case is these people aren't quite depressed enough, and remain a burden on the social system. The few that do keep working will be looking at massive tax hikes in the next few years, combined with an increased level of inflation. It will be a snowball of bankruptcies that just keeps getting bigger.


----------



## dimsum

Quirky said:
			
		

> I'm going to play a little devil's advocate, maybe tin-foil hat guy, to discuss something looming in the very near future - the economy.



The problem I see right away is that symptoms don't necessarily show up right away, and some are asymptomatic.  So, people don't know they're carriers and you can't ever fully isolate the compromised people.  You'd have to do it...daily?  Hourly?  Would people willingly go into self-isolation (hint - we're seeing that they won't)?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Vancouver orders all restaurant table service to shut down, closes playgrounds*
> 
> "If we continue to see non-essential service retailers and service providers ignoring our new reality, we will not hesitate to take further action."
> 
> Anyone who sees restaurants not complying with the order can call 311.
> 
> 
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-orders-all-restaurant-table-service-to-shut-down-closes-playgrounds-1.4861836





> Earlier on Friday the City of Vancouver announced that all restaurants must stop any dine-in services by the end of Friday or face prosecution, as part of a host of new policies unveiled a day after the city declared a state of emergency.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-announces-77-new-coronavirus-cases-bringing-total-to-348-as-restaurants-close-province-wide-1.5505134


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> I'm going to play a little devil's advocate, maybe tin-foil hat guy, to discuss something looming in the very near future - the economy. It will be absolutely crippled.



For what it is worth to OMERS pensioners, "Without question, pensions will continue to be paid on the first business day of each month."

https://www.omers.com/Members/COVID-19-Update


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Coronavirus: Police lay out consequences if Ontario emergency orders aren’t followed*
> 
> Failing to comply with an order made during an emergency is a set fine of $750, while obstructing any person exercising a power or performing a duty in accordance with an order made during a declared emergency comes with a $1,000 fine.
> 
> The orders are in place until March 31 when a reassessment of the situation will be made.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6710865/coronavirus-ontario-consequences-emergency-order/





> *Northwest Territories to ban non-essential travel over coronavirus pandemic*
> 
> The news release says disobeying the order is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and six months in jail.
> 
> At a press conference on Saturday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said the federal government supports this step.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6712540/coronavirus-non-essential-travel/


----------



## The Bread Guy

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> *Coronavirus: Police lay out consequences if Ontario emergency orders aren’t followed* ...


Here's the menu from the OPP's Twitter feed ...


----------



## stellarpanther

It's amazingly heartwarming to see the healthcare workers in Italy working so hard that they are literally dropping in some cases due to exhaustion.  I'm also hearing about nurses as well as in the US working in some cased without the proper equipment and needing to resort to making their own masks that they can only hope will work a bit. According to CBC, nurses in Edmonton are refusing to swab patients without a N95 masks.  Nobody wants to get sick or worse, but we all need to take risks.  Now isn't the time to invoke their collective agreement!


----------



## OceanBonfire

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's amazingly heartwarming to see the healthcare workers in Italy working so hard that they are literally dropping in some cases due to exhaustion.  I'm also hearing about nurses as well as in the US working in some cased without the proper equipment and needing to resort to making their own masks that they can only hope will work a bit. According to CBC, nurses in Edmonton are refusing to swab patients without a N95 masks.  Nobody wants to get sick or worse, but we all need to take risks.  Now isn't the time to invoke their collective agreement!



That's not how it works! If they're all sick, who will take care of you?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Cyprus, there is genius in action...

Drone walks dog for man on coronavirus lockdown in Cyprus

https://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-drone-walks-dog-cyprus-lockdown-20200319-dvpxy46a7ncxza2kxijlu6ym6i-story.html?fbclid=IwAR1PCXLjVCAUhCvHIuPfkW5N7ML_MLnKSJIovb9Vn7pO_GWHWWEBHbaDI9I


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *First case of COVID-19 reported in Northwest Territories*
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/nwt-first-case-covid19-1.5505701
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/northwest-territories-confirm-first-case-of-covid-19-ban-inbound-travel-1.4862722
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6713197/northwest-territories-coronavirus-canada/


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> According to CBC, nurses in Edmonton are refusing to swab patients without a N95 masks.



Deja vu.

The N95 and FIT testing became lightning rods during SARS.

Directives for the use of the N95 changed throughout SARS and were not always clear or consistent.

While supplying and FIT testing 800 Toronto paramedics with N95s took several months, no Toronto paramedics became ill with SARS after these requirements were initiated. 

We were mandated to wear the N95 all the time at work. Only exception if > 3 metres from others in station.

Because we had permanent partners, the rule in station was somewhat relaxed ( I suspect by most ).


----------



## dapaterson

Healthcare professionals out west: "Hey, let's have some fun - a little bonspiel from 11-14 March.  What's the worst that could happen?"

https://www.cjme.com/2020/03/21/11-of-22-sask-healthcare-workers-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-bonspiel/


> Saskatchewan’s Chief Medical Health Officer Dr. Saqib Shahab says the testing results from a physician curling bonspiel in Edmonton are “sobering.”
> 
> He confirmed Saturday in a teleconference call that 11 of 22 Saskatchewan-based healthcare professionals who attended the bonspiel, which took place from March 11-14, have tested positive for COVID-19.


----------



## medicineman

But there's no community spread... :

MM


----------



## FJAG

In case you were wondering how long your supply of toilet paper will last.

https://howmuchtoiletpaper.com/

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson

FJAG said:
			
		

> In case you were wondering how long your supply of toilet paper will last.
> 
> https://howmuchtoiletpaper.com/
> 
> :cheers:



Interestingly, the calculator doesn't account for gender differences.


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interestingly, the calculator doesn't account for gender differences.



Have you forgotten how to average data entries?

 ;D


----------



## mariomike

Mr. Coffee anyone?

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/03/21/at-brooklyn-health-facility--coffee-filters-eyed-in-mask-shortage?cid=twitter_NY1


----------



## stellarpanther

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interestingly, the calculator doesn't account for gender differences.


I'm a bit embarrassed because we have about 445 days worth. lol. 
My wife stocked up about 2 weeks before things went nuts. Her reason was because Costco had a great sale so she wanted to get it to save money in the future.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*Coronavirus: B.C. couple donates $1K following meat-hoarding backlash, death threats*
https://globalnews.ca/news/6705378/coronavirus-bc-couple-1k-donation/

Rough neighborhood.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Coronavirus: B.C. couple donates $1K following meat-hoarding backlash, death threats*
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6705378/coronavirus-bc-couple-1k-donation/
> 
> Rough neighborhood.



It's going to get rougher...

COVID-19: Doctors push for lockdown, warn B.C. could become like Italy

In a dire warning, physicians across the Lower Mainland are calling on the B.C. government to take more drastic measures, such as a lockdown, to stop the spread of the coronavirus and avoid a crisis like Italy.

In a letter Saturday to provincial health officer, Dr. Bonnie Henry, Gerald Da Roza, head of medicine at Royal Columbian Hospital in New Westminster, says B.C. is on the same trajectory as Italy.

https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-doctors-urge-b-c-government-to-take-more-drastic-measures/wcm/b8bdc2eb-966d-49f6-a2f0-dcf22ea81341/


----------



## Remius

Here’s a good news story.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/loblaws-hikes-employee-pay-amid-covid-19-crisis-1.4862874

While the CAF is in Force preservation mode, these guys are out there putting themselves at risk everyday right now, keeping the food supply going.  Canadians thank military members for their service all the time, we should return the favour to these folks. 

I was at the drug store 2 days ago and thanked the two girls managing the cash. They were genuinely thankful for that.  

So many people making sure society doesn’t fall apart.  Postal employees, garbage removal etc etc.  All those things we take for granted. 

Anyways, just me rambling while I sit at home.


----------



## Quirky

Who knew that putting harmful chemicals down your lungs was unhealthy? 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-vaping-drugs/index.html


----------



## Jarnhamar

A friend of mine in Edmonton told me Cabela's out there sold out of guns last week.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A friend of mine in Edmonton told me Cabela's out there sold out of guns last week.


Damn hoarders.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Lockdowns.  For how long?  And what is the "exit strategy"?


----------



## OldSolduer

I had to pick up another prescription today. I asked the nice young lady if “the crazy lady” had returned. She said she might have but probably won’t be returning.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> According to CBC, nurses in Edmonton are refusing to swab patients without a N95 masks.  Nobody wants to get sick or worse, but we all need to take risks.  Now isn't the time to invoke their collective agreement!



That's ok. They'll send someone into your home to do it,



> Smith said EMS personnel were being provided the masks while they conducted in-house swabs but when nurses filled in, they were not given the same protections.
> https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/covid-19-nurses-demanding-more-protections-before-they-conduct-swab/


----------



## medicineman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A friend of mine in Edmonton told me Cabela's out there sold out of guns last week.



Maybe should start looking for broadheads for my arrows/bolts...

MM


----------



## Quirky

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Lockdowns.  For how long?  And what is the "exit strategy"?



Couple hundred old folk and those with immune deficiencies will die from this, maybe a few younger people, Canada will spend half a trillion in bailouts and overall economic losses. JT and his socialists will claim victory for the measures they took, life will go on but people will be in severe financial distress.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Couple hundred old folk and those with immune deficiencies will die from this, maybe a few younger people,



If you don't mind me asking, do you have a source for that?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ontario suspended evictions for people who can't/won't pay their rent. I wonder if the province will compensate the landlords who may be out thousands of dollars per month.


----------



## ballz

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ontario suspended evictions for people who can't/won't pay their rent. I wonder if the province will compensate the landlords who may be out thousands of dollars per month.



So did NB because they declared a state of emergency and it's built into that. I'm one of the landlords so I'm waiting to see how that plays out come the first of the month... interestingly the downstairs tenant is a CAF member so I know he's getting paid (not assuming he isn't going to pay rent but it sure would be interesting if he doesn't). What hasn't been made clear is whether I have recourse after the State of Emergency ends to collect afterwards.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Inside Taiwan during COVID-19: How they keep schools and businesses open*
> 
> _Taiwan acted early to make sure there were supplies of masks, sanitizer_
> 
> 
> It's almost life as usual for the Lin family of Taiwan during the coronavirus pandemic — with a few noticeable exceptions.
> 
> "We didn't worry too much," said Leeli Chang, who lives with her husband, Terry Lin, and her daughter, Peggy, 8, in a suburb of Taipei.
> 
> The family, like many in Taiwan, has continued to go to work, to school and out shopping as normal since the COVID-19 pandemic began, but now with some precautions in place — such as regular temperature checks and hand sanitizer dispensers outside most public buildings and protective masks.
> 
> Taiwan was hit hard by the SARS pandemic in 2003, but this time, the government took swift and early actions when it first became aware of an unknown pneumonia in Wuhan, China.
> 
> By mid-February, the territory had increased its mask and alcoholic sanitizer production, introduced fines for raising the price of medical supplies and set cleaning standards for public transportation and other areas, such as trains and schools.
> 
> ...
> 
> More at links.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/taiwan-covid-19-lessons-1.5505031
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/taiwan-covid-19-canada-1.5502194


----------



## Remius

ballz said:
			
		

> So did NB because they declared a state of emergency and it's built into that. I'm one of the landlords so I'm waiting to see how that plays out come the first of the month... interestingly the downstairs tenant is a CAF member so I know he's getting paid (not assuming he isn't going to pay rent but it sure would be interesting if he doesn't). What hasn't been made clear is whether I have recourse after the State of Emergency ends to collect afterwards.



Ha!  I doubt it. The laws heavily favour the tenant.

In all seriousness though, I bet they will just tell you to deal with your bank.  

I was a landlord up until last summer.  I had a good tenant that would have probably put herself into serious debt to keep paying me.  To be honest I could have absorbed the hit for a few months if she couldn’t have paid but I know a lot of smaller landlords can’t afford that kind of cost absorption.

I imagine their will be a lot of cases of defaulted rents after this is said and done.


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's going to get rougher...
> 
> COVID-19: Doctors push for lockdown, warn B.C. could become like Italy ...


Maybe not just B.C. ...

Just heard from relatives in Italy - now, even jogging or exercising by yourself outside is prohibited in the northern Italian hot spots.


----------



## suffolkowner

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, do you have a source for that?



Yes some numbers would be interesting to digest. Do you have any? I read in one of the many articles about the situation in Italy that the average age of mortality was 78. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019#Epidemiology


----------



## mariomike

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Do you have any?



No. Which is why I have not made any claims about fatality rate, and requested a source,



			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> Couple hundred old folk and those with immune deficiencies will die from this, maybe a few younger people,


----------



## Lumber

mariomike said:
			
		

> No. Which is why I have not made any claims about fatality rate, and requested a source,



This is from when the death toll was still "only" 2500, but that's probably a sufficient sample size to get an idea of who and how this virus kills.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

Interestingly, of 2500 deaths, only 17 were people under 40, and all of those were men with "serious existing medical conditions". No women under 40, and no children at all, have died from this. This makes me feel better, as I am a new father, but still nervous , given both mine and my wife's parents fall within the at-risk category.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

That quote reminds me of what a lady I went to school with, who has a Special Olympian Daughter, posted on FB...."your compromised just might be my everything". 
Edit....on phone and I meant Quirkys post, not the above one.


----------



## mariomike

Lumber said:
			
		

> Interestingly, of 2500 deaths, only 17 were people under 40, and all of those were men with "serious existing medical conditions".



Guess that's what they mean by the "Boomer Remover" meme,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03mmS8aFe-v6XvitkDUK5wUytyspg%3A1584884972486&ei=7Gx3XtylHce4tAb3v77YCA&q=%22boomer+remover%3A&oq=%22boomer+remover%3A&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0i324l2j0i22i30.126410.129977..130484...3.0..0.391.775.0j3j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i8i30.x8CVoxcsmc8&ved=0ahUKEwjcy63OnK7oAhVHHM0KHfefD4sQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584885106406


----------



## Retired AF Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> No. Which is why I have not made any claims about fatality rate, and requested a source,



Here is a link to a Worldometer page that lists the infection rate base on age, sex and pre-existing medical problems. Note that the information this page is based is at least a month old.


----------



## GR66

Some more recent stats:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-new-age-analysis-of-risk-confirms-young-adults-not-invincible/

It suggests that up to 1/5th of those between the ages of 20-44 may require hospitalization and 2-4% will require care in an ICU.

If left to spread I can't see how our health care system could possibly cope with these numbers.


----------



## mariomike

In case anyone is wondering how the Legion ( Ontario Command ) is handling this,

https://army.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;topic=131800.950;last_msg=1601840

They have guidelines. But, seem to be leaving decisions up to "branch autonomy".


----------



## Journeyman

I saw this on social media, and thinking it was helpful advice, figured I'd share.
Having sent to family already, I'd already added some "Navy translation"   


> From Jon Bailey on Twitter @SloopJontyB
> 
> During my time in the Submarine Service, I - along with many others - endured many weeks and months cooped up in a steel tube under the waves. I just thought I’d share a few coping strategies for many of you now facing a Covid-19 “patrol”.
> 
> ROUTINE: Life at sea is dictated by shifts and routines. You can tell what day it was by what was for dinner. Make a routine now, test it then write it down & stick to it. Divide your day up in to work (if home working) rest, exercise, meals, hobbies, etc. Do the same for kids.
> 
> PRIVACY: the only place private at sea was your bunk. Make a dedicated private time / place in the routine. Even if you timeshare the front room get everyone a couple of hours alone. Do whatever you want: watch shit films, pray, yoga, arrange matches: whatever gets you through.
> 
> EAT: scran [Navy-speak for “food”] onboard was usually pretty good and broke up the monotony of patrols. Take time to prepare meals. A good mix of “feast & famine” will stop the pounds piling on - one boat dis Steak Saturdays, Fishy Friday, Curry & Pizza nights. On other days soup & bread was enough.
> 
> EXERCISE: you’ll have the advantage of not having to use a spinning bike in a switchboard. 20-30mins a day of whatever as a minimum. Fitness Blender on YouTube has workouts for all. It’s a natural antidepressant, breaks up the day and keeps you healthy. Get outside when able.
> 
> CLEAN: that house is going to get grungy now you’re spending a lot more time in it. Put time in your daily routine to clean and stick to it.
> 
> CONNECT: even during radio silence we still got a weekly telegram from loved ones back home. This was a weekly highlight. Keep in touch with your people. My current work has agreed a daily “coffee” catch up online even if there’s no work to discuss.
> 
> PERSPECTIVE: like all other patrols, this one will end. It’s a shit sandwich but better than dodging barrel bombs [Navy for depth charges; come on, we’ve all watched submarine movies]. Don’t obsess with the news or Twitter shit. Bring your world closer, focus on little things that you enjoy & make plans for the future. At least you should have a window!


----------



## OceanBonfire

Nova Scotia declares State of Emergency, last province to do so.  Effective immediately, Nova Scotians cannot gather in groups of more than 5. Provincial parks are closed effective immediately and anyone who goes there will be treated as trespassing.

Premier McNeil says the borders of Nova Scotia will be tightened, effective 6:00 a.m. tomorrow. Anyone who has travelled outside of Nova Scotia must self-isolate for 14 days upon their return.

Police in the province are also now authorized to enforce social distancing, said Minister Mark Furey. People and businesses who are found breaking rules of self-isolation and social distancing, will be subject to summary offence fines. 

The fine is $1000 per day for individuals, and $7500 for businesses. Individuals and businesses can be fined multiple times.

https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-s-declares-state-of-emergency-identifies-7-more-cases-of-covid-19-1.4863349


----------



## mariomike

Speaking of submarines ( and toilet paper, up thread ) , this is "The Infamous Toilet Paper Letter",

http://www.submarinesailor.com/history/toiletpaper.asp

3. During the 11 ¾ months elapsing from the time of ordering the toilet paper and the present date, the SKIPJACK personnel, despite their best efforts to await delivery of subject material, have been unable to wait on numerous occasions, and the situation is now quite acute, especially during depth charge attack by the "back-stabbers."


----------



## garb811

*LARGE ARTICLES*

Please do not cut and paste massive articles verbatim into the thread, it causes havoc with people trying to read on their phones or tablets.

Cut what you think is the germane point you are wanting to make from the article and, if someone wants to read more in depth, they can follow the link you provide.

If you absolutely must post the entire article, please do so in the Articles and Large Posts sub-forum and link to it there.

Thanks very much in advance!

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *France appeals to workers as coronavirus claims first doctor*
> 
> The coronavirus outbreak has claimed its first fatality among French medical personnel, Health Minister Olivier Veran said on Sunday, as the country prepares for an expected surge in cases.
> 
> The deceased doctor was an emergency specialist working at a hospital in Compiegne, north of Paris, according to a Facebook post by one of his children, reported by public television.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-doctors-idUSKBN2190L0


----------



## mariomike

GR66 said:
			
		

> If left to spread I can't see how our health care system could possibly cope with these numbers.



Hopefully, it does not reach this stage,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOTRwj1mCCM


----------



## daftandbarmy

garb811 said:
			
		

> *LARGE ARTICLES*
> 
> Please do not cut and paste massive articles verbatim into the thread, it causes havoc with people trying to read on their phones or tablets.
> 
> Cut what you think is the germane point you are wanting to make from the article and, if someone wants to read more in depth, they can follow the link you provide.
> 
> If you absolutely must post the entire article, please do so in the Articles and Large Posts sub-forum and link to it there.
> 
> Thanks very much in advance!
> 
> *Milnet.ca Staff*



Wilco!

You should have started that post with 'OK Boomer'


----------



## The Bread Guy

From pickin' country in Ontario ...


> The federal government will allow migrant farm workers an exemption to enter Canada.
> 
> “Congratulations everyone, we did it. SAWP program continues, thank you all for your support,” Norfolk blueberry farmer Dusty Zamecnik posted to twitter on Friday night.
> 
> Zamecnik was referring to the Seasonal Agriculture Worker Program that sees thousands of foreign workers come to Canada each year to work in the farming industry.
> 
> Zamecnik, chair of Norfolk’s agricultural advisory board, was among those who sounded the alarm when the federal government announced earlier this week that the border would be closed to non-residents as part of the COVID-19 containment strategy.
> 
> Farm leaders and politicians began immediately to lobby the government to allow farm workers to enter the country. An estimated 50,000 migrant workers come to Canada each year to work in the agriculture industry.
> 
> In a news release on Friday, the federal government said it was allowing some exemptions to the border restrictions.
> 
> Workers in agriculture and agri-food industries are among those who will be granted exemptions.
> 
> Those coming to Canada will face health protocols and must undergo a 14-day self-isolation period ...


More from the GoC info-machine here.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, do you have a source for that?



Lets use this source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102

Right now there are 20 deaths in Canada, the majority of them the very elderly with, I'm going to assume but it doesn't really matter at this point, previous health conditions. What we have are people who are essentially A: Not in the workforce anymore and B: Don't have to provide for children. As posted above already, Italy reported that 99% of their dead were elderly who were already 'unhealthy'. 50% of those 99% that died had THREE prior illnesses. THREE! The 1% that died were aged 30-50 which according to that article, was 17 people. 

From the article:


> All of Italy’s victims under 40 have been males with serious existing medical conditions.



ALL of the victims, not some, but ALL had serious medical conditions. Not one person who was under 50, healthy, died as a result. NOT ONE!

Lets get back to my original point. What we are doing now, as a country, as a continent, is heading for economic collapse. People who are otherwise healthy and the extremely low-risk demographic are sitting at home not keeping the economy going, not being able to pay their bills, their mortgage. Businesses are already closing for good, Canadians who were already one pay-cheque away from insolvency, are laid off. If we keep this trend going for weeks/months we will have, essentially, half of Canadians who will be bankrupt. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/maxed-out-48-of-canadians-within-200-of-insolvency-survey-says-1.1247336 As you can see, Canadians are already maxed out, sitting at home will push them over the edge. 4000 people commit suicide every year in Canada, that number will go up this year, I guarantee it. 

Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Quirky]

Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? 
[/quote]

They're the reason we have an economy in the first place. They put their time in and passed the mantle on to us. Leaving them to die because they're old and sick is a shitty thing to do.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Quirky said:
			
		

> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



I don't think you are looking at this from the right perspective, Q.

While the deaths may be from the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions, it does not mean that allegedly (I say allegedly because how many of them have pre-existing conditions not yet known to them or diagnosed?) healthy young people are immune. They can still get the virus and be sick like dogs for month or months, to the point where they require supervised medical care in or out of facilities.

If we are all going on as if nothing was happening, not only would we likely wipe out most elderly people and people with pre-existing conditions, but we would overwhelm the health system even just to care for the "young and healthy" ones that would require acute care.

This is a DEFCON 1 situation.

Interestingly enough, we keep hearing the public figures of government constantly saying "this is unprecedented" or "we are in uncharted territory", etc. Yet there is a precedent (OK more than 100 years ago) with the Spanish flu, and while SARS was nowhere near as infectious as Covid-19 appears to be, it certainly should have served as a reminder to governments around the world to plan for just such situation. Where there such plans available? I don't see much evidence of that.

And funny enough, here in Quebec, Emergency Preparedness Quebec planned a major exercise about a year and a half ago to train to deal with a highly contagious pandemic. However, the exercise was canned when the press discovered that the underlying virus' effect what to turn people into zombies. The press had a field day mocking the department for spending all that public money just to "play zombie apocalypse". 

Who's laughing now? That would probably have been a great rehearsal for what is going on today and would likely have provided good "lessons learned" to be applied early on to the current crisis.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:
			
		

> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



Define 'old"...I'll be 60 soon and I'd really like another 15 years or so.  If you think I'm worth it of course....


----------



## Kat Stevens

Quirky said:
			
		

> Lets use this source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102
> 
> Right now there are 20 deaths in Canada, the majority of them the very elderly with, I'm going to assume but it doesn't really matter at this point, previous health conditions. What we have are people who are essentially A: Not in the workforce anymore and B: Don't have to provide for children. As posted above already, Italy reported that 99% of their dead were elderly who were already 'unhealthy'. 50% of those 99% that died had THREE prior illnesses. THREE! The 1% that died were aged 30-50 which according to that article, was 17 people.
> 
> From the article:
> ALL of the victims, not some, but ALL had serious medical conditions. Not one person who was under 50, healthy, died as a result. NOT ONE!
> 
> Lets get back to my original point. What we are doing now, as a country, as a continent, is heading for economic collapse. People who are otherwise healthy and the extremely low-risk demographic are sitting at home not keeping the economy going, not being able to pay their bills, their mortgage. Businesses are already closing for good, Canadians who were already one pay-cheque away from insolvency, are laid off. If we keep this trend going for weeks/months we will have, essentially, half of Canadians who will be bankrupt. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/maxed-out-48-of-canadians-within-200-of-insolvency-survey-says-1.1247336 As you can see, Canadians are already maxed out, sitting at home will push them over the edge. 4000 people commit suicide every year in Canada, that number will go up this year, I guarantee it.
> 
> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



Wow. Don’t ever get old.


----------



## Kilted

Quirky said:
			
		

> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



Because we aren't Nazi Germany. We aren't about to just say goodbye to an entire generation because it would be inconvenient to fight for them. Some of who (not many anymore), may have actually fought Nazi Germany. What would that say about us as a society if we were to sacrifice the most vulnerable people in our society just to satisfy the stock market.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> They're the reason we have an economy in the first place. They put their time in and passed the mantle on to us. Leaving them to die because they're old and sick is a shitty thing to do.



We won't be leaving them to die. We tell them to self-isolate, unless they don't care for their own well being and continue the status quo. You'd think the most at-risk would take their own health seriously. I still see 70+ elderly out and about in stores just walking around....



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Define 'old"...I'll be 60 soon and I'd really like another 15 years or so.  If you think I'm worth it of course....



That's entirely up to you to take the necessary steps to avoid getting infected. 



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> While the deaths may be from the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions, it does not mean that allegedly (I say allegedly because how many of them have pre-existing conditions not yet known to them or diagnosed?) healthy young people are immune. They can still get the virus and be sick like dogs for month or months, to the point where they require supervised medical care in or out of facilities



Yes everyone can get infected however healthy young people don't necessarily need hospital medical care to recover. I got influenza a few years ago and while it knocked me out for a few days, I stayed home and recovered, where as someone much older would likely require a hospital bed. I think everyone here is missing the point, I'm saying we need to find a way to keep this country going without closing everything off at once. Keep the workforce at work, keep the elderly and sick at home, limit contact between the two. Everyone else is trying to shame me for this, I'm not some hardcore capitalist, the long term harm to everyone is worse than the short term from the measures we're taking.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:
			
		

> That's entirely up to you to take the necessary steps to avoid getting infected.



I'd looooooooooove that....unfortunately what I do is considered essential and I don't seem to have the same capacity to say "f#%& 'em" like you can.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:
			
		

> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



1. Because it’s the right thing to do (insert long list here, starting with morally etc etc)
2. Because the virus is smart and might start picking more on people in other age groups next
3. Because Lt Sobel doesn’t hate Easy Company Private Randelman...  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cQE1YIJDNWo


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Ontario suspended evictions for people who can't/won't pay their rent.

Everything should work out if most participants can find a way to pass costs through, or forgive some entirely, for a few months.  "A" no longer has an income stream, and can't pay rent to "B".  "B" accepts a reduced income stream, but can't meet mortgage payments to "Lender".  "Lender" either chooses or is required (by government) to accept a reduced income stream, but gets some kind of government backing or commitment that will allow lost payments to be recovered downstream in time.  At worst, "Lender" writes off losses which are passed on to shareholders - not as bad as losing a job.  Maybe indexing could be withheld from pensions for a year or two.  Some companies and enterprises have already offered an assortment of cost breaks for the goods and services provided.

Key point: many - maybe most - people are going to eat some kind of financial loss, so don't dwell on it or fret too much if you feel you are exceptionally hard done by, especially if you are one of those who keeps your job (or retirement) and your health.

Governments should find the people and enterprises in the gaps (costs to be borne with no way to pass the shortfalls along) and back them up, rather than "helicoptering" money everywhere.

Almost everyone already has some kind of acceptable shelter.  Food will keep on growing; cows won't wait to be milked.  Producing enough food (indeed, a surplus) should not be a problem; the complication is distribution and payment.  But food costs are not typically a huge cost compared to housing, and distribution at the point where the consumers have to gather at the retailers' establishments is a planning problem: fewer trips to buy more things per trip means fewer people in the stores per hour.

Transportation costs should be reduced for most people, whether for work or leisure.

And leisure activities, while more constrained, do not require people to give up their virtual interactions.  The telecomm infrastructure is under stress, but the huge investments in modernization and extension of the past few years are paying off.


----------



## Infanteer

I can see the logic (as callous as it may be) behind Quirky's argument, and there is a certain utilitarian essence to it.  If we applied only that rubric (deaths) then maybe just isolating the elderly and vulnerable while letting everybody carry on as per normal to let this thing run its course as a seasonal flu does is the way to go.

However, I think this line of thinking, where we focus only on fatalities, misses the point, which is that this can still be a serious disease even if it doesn't kill you. From what I understand, while some otherwise healthy working age folks catch COVID-19 and are largely asymptomatic or spend a few days in bed, others suffer some harsh complications that requires hospitalization.  I did a quick google and found some CDC numbers:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm#T1_down

Even though the cohort of those aged 20-65 (we'll call this the "working cohort") suffers a low fatality rate, they still compose over 50% of the hospitalization/ICU admissions for severe cases, and that (if I'm reading the data correctly) this cohort still sees 25% of severe cases among all those who catch it.

I suspect this percentage is probably a bit inflated due to an uncertain denominator (ie: numbers of people who catch COVID-19 but aren't tested and counted), but even if you account for that, this virus still seems serious enough to result in complications resulting in hospitalization for 15-25% of the working cohort.  If this rips through Canada, that's about 3 to 5 million people in the working cohort that may require hospitalization.

Which brings us back around to the "national isolation period" we are seeing now.  While it may be hard on the economy, how much harder would hundreds of thousands of working cohort Canadians requiring hospitalization at any one time.  Using the r0 for COVID-19, 1 person will spread this to 406 people over 30 days if we carry on as per normal.  If we cut our activities down by half, that goes to 1 person spreading this to 15 people over the same period of time.  In military terms, we are preventing the working cohort (and all Canadians in fact) from becoming a Mass Casualty event on our national health care system.  The short term economic pain is probably worth the long term gain of not having a broken health care system and the risk of breakdown of law and order and social cohesion that comes with a "swamping" effect.


----------



## Infanteer

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Everything should work out if most participants can find a way to pass costs through, or forgive some entirely, for a few months.



Good point - the "national isolation period" is slowing down the entire economic system, and not just (as say - an oil shock) one significant part of it.  This should, as you say, provide more of an equilibrium when, provided with government emergency measures, puts most folks in a sort of stasis for the next month or two.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>In military terms, we are preventing the working cohort (and all Canadians in fact) from becoming a Mass Casualty event on our national health care system.  

I suppose that to be the aim we must maintain.  I'm inclined to side with the commentators who believe that the opportunity for containment passed (if there ever was one), and what we have now is a problem similar to floodwater management.

"The short term economic gain".   Pain, should be?


----------



## Infanteer

Good catch - fixed that.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Quirky said:
			
		

> Lets use this source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102
> 
> Right now there are 20 deaths in Canada, the majority of them the very elderly with, I'm going to assume but it doesn't really matter at this point, previous health conditions. What we have are people who are essentially A: Not in the workforce anymore and B: Don't have to provide for children. As posted above already, Italy reported that 99% of their dead were elderly who were already 'unhealthy'. 50% of those 99% that died had THREE prior illnesses. THREE! The 1% that died were aged 30-50 which according to that article, was 17 people.
> 
> From the article:
> ALL of the victims, not some, but ALL had serious medical conditions. Not one person who was under 50, healthy, died as a result. NOT ONE!
> 
> Lets get back to my original point. What we are doing now, as a country, as a continent, is heading for economic collapse. People who are otherwise healthy and the extremely low-risk demographic are sitting at home not keeping the economy going, not being able to pay their bills, their mortgage. Businesses are already closing for good, Canadians who were already one pay-cheque away from insolvency, are laid off. If we keep this trend going for weeks/months we will have, essentially, half of Canadians who will be bankrupt. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/maxed-out-48-of-canadians-within-200-of-insolvency-survey-says-1.1247336 As you can see, Canadians are already maxed out, sitting at home will push them over the edge. 4000 people commit suicide every year in Canada, that number will go up this year, I guarantee it.
> 
> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



Disgusting on so many levels...


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> While the deaths may be from the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions, it does not mean that allegedly (I say allegedly because how many of them have pre-existing conditions not yet known to them or diagnosed?) healthy young people are immune. They can still get the virus and be sick like dogs for month or months, to the point where they require supervised medical care in or out of facilities.



For example, two of the four people here in Kingston who have Cov-19 are under the age of 50 (44 & 48); the other two were 62 and the latest in her "seventies." 
All four had travelled outside of Canada (Barbados, UK, Spain and Portugal.

Link


----------



## observor 69

Read this book a few years ago. Great read, I learned a lot and it immediately sprung to mind as soon as this pandemic started. His thoughts on our latest one at:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-1918-spanish-flu.html

The Single Most Important Lesson From the 1918 Influenza
Containment — the attempt to limit spread of a virus and even eliminate it — has failed.

By John M. Barry
Mr. Barry is the author of “The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History.”

March 17, 2020


----------



## mariomike

Thank-you for your reply, Quirky.

Assuming relatively few healthy young people will be killed by this thing. ( Although many were in the 1918 pandemic. )

On the other hand, what do we know about the long-term effects on the health of survivors?

eg: I don't personally know anyone who died of SARS. But, of those I know who survived it, 

1) All were admitted to Intensive Care Units. 

2 ) Not one ever returned their pre-injury jobs. 

They were all young ( with the exception of one who was 50ish ).  All were healthy. 

It had an economic consequence for the taxpayers, because the employer had to place them into "permanent suitable" jobs, in other City departments. 

And, most importantly,

"If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated."


----------



## garb811

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I can see the logic (as callous as it may be) behind Quirky's argument, and there is a certain utilitarian essence to it.  If we applied only that rubric (deaths) then maybe just isolating the elderly and vulnerable while letting everybody carry on as per normal to let this thing run its course as a seasonal flu does is the way to go.
> 
> However, I think this line of thinking, where we focus only on fatalities, misses the point, which is that this can still be a serious disease even if it doesn't kill you. From what I understand, while some otherwise healthy working age folks catch COVID-19 and are largely asymptomatic or spend a few days in bed, others suffer some harsh complications that requires hospitalization.  I did a quick google and found some CDC numbers:
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm#T1_down
> 
> Even though the cohort of those aged 20-65 (we'll call this the "working cohort") suffers a low fatality rate, they still compose over 50% of the hospitalization/ICU admissions for severe cases, and that (if I'm reading the data correctly) this cohort still sees 25% of severe cases among all those who catch it.
> 
> I suspect this percentage is probably a bit inflated due to an uncertain denominator (ie: numbers of people who catch COVID-19 but aren't tested and counted), but even if you account for that, this virus still seems serious enough to result in complications resulting in hospitalization for 15-25% of the working cohort.  If this rips through Canada, that's about 3 to 5 million people in the working cohort that may require hospitalization.
> 
> Which brings us back around to the "national isolation period" we are seeing now.  While it may be hard on the economy, how much harder would hundreds of thousands of working cohort Canadians requiring hospitalization at any one time.  Using the r0 for COVID-19, 1 person will spread this to 406 people over 30 days if we carry on as per normal.  If we cut our activities down by half, that goes to 1 person spreading this to 15 people over the same period of time.  In military terms, we are preventing the working cohort (and all Canadians in fact) from becoming a Mass Casualty event on our national health care system.  The short term economic pain is probably worth the long term gain of not having a broken health care system and the risk of breakdown of law and order and social cohesion that comes with a "swamping" effect.


Once emergency responders and hospitals are overwhelmed, there are no beds, equipment and staff available for other illnesses and injuries that are going to continue to happen.

Suddenly it isn't going to just be old and infirm people dying of COVID-19, it's going to be people dying of all kinds of things that we just don't expect to be fatal anymore.


----------



## NavyShooter

This is the best explanation of the current situation I've seen yet.


Thank-you.  May I steal and post elsewhere?






			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Which brings us back around to the "national isolation period" we are seeing now.  While it may be hard on the economy, how much harder would hundreds of thousands of working cohort Canadians requiring hospitalization at any one time.  Using the r0 for COVID-19, 1 person will spread this to 406 people over 30 days if we carry on as per normal.  If we cut our activities down by half, that goes to 1 person spreading this to 15 people over the same period of time.  In military terms, we are preventing the working cohort (and all Canadians in fact) from becoming a Mass Casualty event on our national health care system.  The short term economic pain is probably worth the long term gain of not having a broken health care system and the risk of breakdown of law and order and social cohesion that comes with a "swamping" effect.


----------



## Infanteer

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> This is the best explanation of the current situation I've seen yet.
> 
> 
> Thank-you.  May I steal and post elsewhere?



Give'er.


----------



## GR66

GR66 said:
			
		

> Some more recent stats:
> 
> https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-new-age-analysis-of-risk-confirms-young-adults-not-invincible/
> 
> It suggests that up to 1/5th of those between the ages of 20-44 may require hospitalization and 2-4% will require care in an ICU.
> 
> If left to spread I can't see how our health care system could possibly cope with these numbers.



So....let's do some projections from the article attached.

Let's even use the lower end of the numbers on the scale.

We'll even ignore your "at risk" groups (say everyone over 45 who will be responsible for their own safety under your plan...if they get sick/die then it's on them so we won't count them).  We'll also ignore anyone under the age of 20 because they have much lower risk.

I've heard some very large ranges of projected infection rates....anywhere from 30-70% of the population to 60-90%.  Of course these are guesses and would vary highly depending on what level of social distancing measures, etc. that are taken, but I'd make what is admittedly a completely uneducated guess that 50% infection rate under your "business as usual" scenario as fairly reasonable.

From Wikipedia, there are a total of 11,401,575 Canadians between the ages of 20 and 44.

So if 50% of these people get infected that is 5,700,788 Canadians infected.

From the March 18th article which sites CDC data for the US, the hospital admission rate for 20-44 year olds is 14-21%

Using the lowest end of this range that means that 798,110 Canadians between the ages of 20-44 will require hospitalization for Covid-19.

According to this website (https://www.statista.com/statistics/831668/density-of-hospital-beds-canada/) Canada in 2018 had 2.5 hospital beds per 1,000 Canadians which works out to 83,692 hospital beds around the country.  

That means that under your scenario, even caring for the low-risk working aged group of Canadians we'd need to increase the hospital capacity of Canada 10-fold to cover the expected hospitalizations.

The rate for hospitalizations requiring ICU care for this "safe" age group is 2-4%.

Again using the low end of the scale we're looking at 15,962 "safe" age group Canadians requiring admission to the ICU.

According to this website (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275101876_Critical_Care_capacity_in_Canada_results_of_a_national_cross-sectional_study), Canada has 3,170 UCU beds available.  That's only 1/5th of what would be required for just 20-44 year olds.

And the death rate for those aged 20-44 is from .1 to .2%.  That's 798 deaths from the "safe" working age group.

Now there may be other factors to affect these numbers.  The current death rate calculated by the CDC for the USA is under conditions where the hospitals are still able to function in a relatively "normal" way.  They have not yet run out of medical supplies.  The health care workers are definitely way overburdened but not in the way they will be once the tsunami of new cases continues.  How many more of the hospitalized cases will die when there are not enough ventilators available (or the trained staff to operate them)?

What will the effect be on the health care system as a whole with this pandemic stress on the system?  What will happen to all the patients that use our hospitals for non-Covid 19 purposes.  Will the death rate for all other causes go up because the health care system simply can't cope with just the Covid 19 burden?

What happens when the doctors and nurses start dying from the virus?  I've heard anecdotal reports that health care workers had higher serious infection rates than the general population due to higher levels of exposure to the virus.  

And all this is ignoring the effects on the population under 20 and over 45 years old.  The working age population between the ages of 45 and 64 is 9,948,790 Canadians.  At a 50% infection rate that's another 4.5 million cases of infection and due to their age the rates of hospitalization/ICU/death are even higher than for the "safe" age group.  

And for those poor at risk people over the age of 65.  Who's looking after them?  Providing them with their medical care.  Food services, shopping, personal needs, etc.?  Are they left to do this on their own to avoid contact and infection from the remaining working population?  They can't be completely isolated from the younger population.  They will still get sick and die...but likely in even higher numbers because all the younger people are allowed to continue working and going out and getting exposed to the virus.

Long post...but the numbers don't seem to suggest that this DEFCON 1 is for "absolutely nothing".  I think you're living in a dream world if you believe that we can all just go back to work, keep the economy chugging along and the effects will be minimal.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It would be better to measure available resources and consumption with duration needed.  Thus, "bed-days" rather than "beds".  And to identify which of the consumables associated with a "bed-day" (eg. IVs, medications) is a limitation (shortage) which crimps the ideal available number of "bed-days".  I can guess with high confidence, without any data whatsoever, that if all of the fraction of cases of a cohort present simultaneously, that the "system" will be overwhelmed.  What is the sustainable throughput?


----------



## Kirkhill

Quirky is not wrong.  Not so much on immediate, emotive, or utilitarian grounds but simply on grounds of sustainability.

I just posted this on Facebook a few hours ago.









> It occurs to me that I grew up in a world of social distancing.
> 
> This was how merchandising was accomplished before penicillin made diseases something that society thought could be eliminated. The only people handling the merchandise were the staff. They fetched it, portioned it, wrapped it and handed it to you or put it directly in your shopping bag. All transactions were similar to what you find at the deli counter. It didn't matter if you were buying a roast, a can of soup or a ball of wool..
> 
> We kept our distance
> We formed queues
> We tipped our hats or tapped our brows
> We spoke
> We wore gloves even when the weather was good
> 
> We never hugged.
> We never kissed.
> 
> We shook hands briefly with acquaintances to whom we had been introduced. This required men to remove their gloves. Ladies never removed their gloves under any circumstances.
> 
> Family excepted.



This day has been coming for a long time now.  The miracle that was penicillin (and its related biopharmaceuticals) has been reaching the end of its tether.   Penicillin convinced us there was a cure for every bacterium.  Salk convinced us there was a prevention for every virus.  Both of those working hypotheses have been stretched over the last couple of decades with rise of pandemics, the rise of superbugs and the resurgence of ancient bugs.  We have reached the point where modern medicine is facing the limits of its post-WW2 strategies.

And that is forcing us to face pre-WW2 facts.  People die.  There ain't nothing we can do about that. And, unless we disport ourselves politely, effectively in the reserved manner that was drilled into a lot of us when we were kids growing up in the 50s and 60s, by people that had survived whooping cough, scarlet fever, cholera, diphtheria, typhus, spanish flu, tuberculosis and polio, by people that had seen their brothers and sisters not survive the cradle, or die before they left school, unless we go back to those ancient, outmoded, out of date, unfashionable, silly Edwardian ideas of civility, unless we do that then we will be responsible for increasing the number of people who die.  We will be killing them.

This next two to four weeks is an opportunity to reset how we do things when we are allowed out of strict quarantine and start the move back into regular communication.  We will have to be more polite, restrained, considerate - not just because it is good manners but because those good manners save lives.

And don't forget your handkerchiefs - much more sanitary that sneezing into your sleeves, and unlike tissues, you pack your germs out with you - leave no trace.

Final point.  The governments are not solving the problem with these lockdowns.   All they are doing is buying time to come up with a workable plan that they can sell to their publics.

I expect to see the resurgence of the split between General Hospitals and Sanatoriums (fever wards, plague hospitals) where infectious diseases are managed in isolation from chronic ailments and emergency surgeries.   I could also see the rise of an acceptance of the need for a useful, ready body of volunteers - amateurs with skills willing to lend a hand to those professionals who have more work than they can handle.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:
			
		

> Lets use this source: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102
> 
> Right now there are 20 deaths in Canada, the majority of them the very elderly with, I'm going to assume but it doesn't really matter at this point, previous health conditions. What we have are people who are essentially A: Not in the workforce anymore and B: Don't have to provide for children. As posted above already, Italy reported that 99% of their dead were elderly who were already 'unhealthy'. 50% of those 99% that died had THREE prior illnesses. THREE! The 1% that died were aged 30-50 which according to that article, was 17 people.
> 
> From the article:
> ALL of the victims, not some, but ALL had serious medical conditions. Not one person who was under 50, healthy, died as a result. NOT ONE!
> 
> Lets get back to my original point. What we are doing now, as a country, as a continent, is heading for economic collapse. People who are otherwise healthy and the extremely low-risk demographic are sitting at home not keeping the economy going, not being able to pay their bills, their mortgage. Businesses are already closing for good, Canadians who were already one pay-cheque away from insolvency, are laid off. If we keep this trend going for weeks/months we will have, essentially, half of Canadians who will be bankrupt. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/maxed-out-48-of-canadians-within-200-of-insolvency-survey-says-1.1247336 As you can see, Canadians are already maxed out, sitting at home will push them over the edge. 4000 people commit suicide every year in Canada, that number will go up this year, I guarantee it.
> 
> Why are we shutting everything down just so we can protect the very old and very sick, who don't keep this economy moving in the first place? Those are the people who should be in isolation, not the healthy and young who have businesses to run, bills to pay, truck payments to make. We are going DEFCON 1 for absolutely nothing.



Your parents and grandparents would be so proud of you.


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:
			
		

> Your parents and grandparents would be so proud of you.



No kidding.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Too bad global warming has reduced the number and quality of ice floes available to shove all the old folks out to sea on. 8)


----------



## Weinie

Mix one cup of "Soylent Green" with a sprinkle of "lebensborn" et voila....problem solved.


----------



## OldSolduer

Target Up said:
			
		

> Too bad global warming has reduced the number and quality of ice floes available to shove all the old folks out to sea on. 8)



From what I understand that’s how some Indigenous populations used to deal with the elderly.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Rand Paul becomes first senator to test positive for coronavirus*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rand-paul-first-senator-test-positive-coronavirus-covid-19/
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/rand-paul-1st-senator-report-positive-test-virus-69737811


----------



## mariomike

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:
			
		

> abortion clinics are closed down



Elective surgeries and cancer care etc. may also be impacted,

Elective surgery,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk00ss08m39p6TfpcTI37EwdfDIk5XA%3A1584917144343&ei=mOp3XozGFIe5tQbdmZXQBA&q=%22elective+surgery%22+1+covid-19&oq=%22elective+surgery%22+1+covid-19&gs_l=psy-ab.3...80264.88894..90014...0.0..0.242.3814.0j23j3......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i302i39j0i7i30j0i8i30.tgQldR8eVOg&ved=0ahUKEwiM8ou7lK_oAhWHXM0KHd1MBUoQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584917237219

Cancer care,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk02SIWfivS3zhRThA34hPNErGAEiUg%3A1584917306385&ei=Out3XuaIF82FtQadjbvACw&q=cancer+care++covid-19&oq=cancer+care++covid-19&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7400.7400..8531...0.0..0.163.377.1j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39.czZS5_zJwP8&ved=0ahUKEwjmja6Ila_oAhXNQs0KHZ3GDrgQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584917317802


----------



## Quirky

It's okay, I get it, the majority of you here are in your golden years, done your time and think 'how dare this youngin tell us what to do! We won't stay in our homes, we built this economy, screw all you working class, we don't care if you go bankrupt!' It's easy to have this mindset, however, its the current working class that's keeping whats left of society running. They are driving the trucks, they are manning the grocery stores, they are the ones making sure the most vulnerable have the resources to stay alive and at home. I have no personal gain in all this, I can sit on my butt for another 10 years at home, collect my salary and retire with a pension. My wife is an RN and pulls in more than a CWO and the way things are looking now, I don't think she will have a hard time finding a job. I'm worried about the 50% of Canadians who are the brink of bankruptcy BEFORE all this started. I know most of you here don't care about that, you've done your time and can sit comfortably at home, getting that cheque from the government. Screw the working class right?

There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.

I'll just leave this here, this is what's going to happen here in Canada if crap hits the fan. Don't think I'm completely out of left field, it's already happening. The world will go on, just not for everyone. 

*Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60*

https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:
			
		

> It's okay, I get it, the majority of you here are in your golden years, done your time and think 'how dare this youngin tell us what to do! We won't stay in our homes, we built this economy, screw all you working class, we don't care if you go bankrupt!' It's easy to have this mindset, however, its the current working class that's keeping whats left of society running. They are driving the trucks, they are manning the grocery stores, they are the ones making sure the most vulnerable have the resources to stay alive and at home. _*I have no personal gain in all this, I can sit on my butt for another 10 years at home, collect my salary and retire with a pension. My wife is an RN and pulls in more than a CWO and the way things are looking now, I don't think she will have a hard time finding a job.*_ I'm worried about the 50% of Canadians who are the brink of bankruptcy BEFORE all this started. I know most of you here don't care about that, you've done your time and can sit comfortably at home, getting that cheque from the government. Screw the working class right?
> 
> There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.
> 
> I'll just leave this here, this is what's going to happen here in Canada if crap hits the fan. Don't think I'm completely out of left field, it's already happening. The world will go on, just not for everyone.
> 
> *Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60*
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856



Damn right....this is all about you and *your* future. Don't let any other considerations get in the way.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.
> 
> I'll just leave this here, this is what's going to happen here in Canada if crap hits the fan. Don't think I'm completely out of left field, it's already happening. The world will go on, just not for everyone.
> 
> *Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60*
> 
> https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856



Dude you need to read how Italy got to that point.  They ignored the problem, they kept going about their days and doing what they always did.  Now those same people are posting all sorts of stuff warning us not to make the same same mistakes they made.  What YOU want to make.  How is their economy doing now? They are removing bodies in military trucks and can’t even have funerals for their loved ones. 

Suck it up.  Stay inside for a few weeks and the economy will recover eventually. 

People like you are why people will die.  Covidiots.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> They are driving the trucks, they are manning the grocery stores,



I think most people appreciate the good work they are doing. 

Most of us here understand the importance of keeping the supply lines open.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Sorry if my not dying ruins your retirement plans.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> Covidiots.



All sorts of examples,

https://twitter.com/CovidIDIOTS


----------



## garb811

Quirky said:
			
		

> ...
> There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.
> ...


Actually, I think most of us do get it, and simply believe your thought process is flawed because we understand the human and economic consequences of what you are proposing are much, much worse than what you seem to think. 

But, that's ok, you're entitled to your own opinion.


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:
			
		

> People like you are why people will die.  Covidiots.



Ok I have to break radio silence to say this...for all you know Quirky is somewhere ensuring our aircraft can operate and respond as needed. His wife is also on the front lines helping in this crisis. Can you say the same?

And he's right on the economy. Although for most of the posters living with comfortable pensions etc, I'm sure you guys don't care...you will be grandfathered. 

If you guys want to bash someone...bash the Prime Minister. He could have dealt with border and travel issues months ago, and reduced a lot of this from even reaching our shores. But he was more worried about making sure no one was mean or racist... 

You don't have to agree with his opinion, but he's entitled to share it (although I doubt he will waste many more keystrokes)


----------



## ModlrMike

Quirky said:
			
		

> It's okay, I get it, the majority of you here are in your golden years, done your time and think 'how dare this youngin tell us what to do! We won't stay in our homes..



You mean like those septuagenarian spring breakers in Florida right now? Oh wait...



			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.



Hello pot, this is kettle!


----------



## Remius

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Ok I have to break radio silence to say this...for all you know Quirky is somewhere ensuring our aircraft can operate and respond as needed. His wife is also on the front lines helping in this crisis. Can you say the same?
> 
> And he's right on the economy. Although for most of the posters living with comfortable pensions etc, I'm sure you guys don't care...you will be grandfathered.
> 
> If you guys want to bash someone...bash the Prime Minister. He could have dealt with border and travel issues months ago, and reduced a lot of this from even reaching our shores. But he was more worried about making sure no one was mean or racist...
> 
> You don't have to agree with his opinion, but he's entitled to share it (although I doubt he will waste many more keystrokes)



He’s entitled to his opinion.  He’s not entitled to declare that most posters here don’t care because they have a pension or are in their golden years because they disagree we should risk their lives because “everyone dies eventually”.

Sorry he doesn’t get a pass on that.


----------



## Weinie

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Ok I have to break radio silence to say this...for all you know Quirky is somewhere ensuring our aircraft can operate and respond as needed. His wife is also on the front lines helping in this crisis. Can you say the same?
> 
> And he's right on the economy. Although for most of the posters living with comfortable pensions etc, I'm sure you guys don't care...you will be grandfathered.
> 
> If you guys want to bash someone...bash the Prime Minister. He could have dealt with border and travel issues months ago, and reduced a lot of this from even reaching our shores. But he was more worried about making sure no one was mean or racist...
> 
> 
> 
> _*You don't have to agree with his opinion, but he's entitled to share it (although I doubt he will waste many more keystrokes)*_



Seriously...……

Lots of people all across Canada are making sure that all things operate, including stuff that really matters right now. Not many are advocating for a "survival of the fittest" approach to the virus.

He is entitled to an opinion. we are entitled to rebut it, number of keystrokes be damned.


----------



## garb811

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Ok I have to break radio silence to say this...for all you know Quirky is somewhere ensuring our aircraft can operate and respond as needed. His wife is also on the front lines helping in this crisis. Can you say the same?
> ...


Yeah, actually I can, and I can safely say I'm a lot more "front line" than Quirky ever will likely be.  As can a whole lot of the people on this board. 

Although you, and Quirky, seem to think the vast majority of the active posters on here are retired for some reason, the reality is the preponderance of the board still have a stick in the game at one level or another.


----------



## brihard

garb811 said:
			
		

> Yeah, actually I can, as can a whole lot of the people on this board. Although you, and Quirky, seem to think the vast majority of the active posters on here are retired for some reason, the reality is preponderance of the board still have a stick in the game at one level or another.



Indeed. I’m in my thirties, working emergency services, and will be in the thick of this if it really gets bad. I also think this Quirky cat is disgustingly out to lunch. He should stick to fixing planes.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Come on Quirky and RE.....the Toronto South Detention Centre needs employees....step up and let's see your bravado.


----------



## stellarpanther

mariomike said:
			
		

> Elective surgeries and cancer care etc. may also be impacted,
> 
> Elective surgery,
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk00ss08m39p6TfpcTI37EwdfDIk5XA%3A1584917144343&ei=mOp3XozGFIe5tQbdmZXQBA&q=%22elective+surgery%22+1+covid-19&oq=%22elective+surgery%22+1+covid-19&gs_l=psy-ab.3...80264.88894..90014...0.0..0.242.3814.0j23j3......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i302i39j0i7i30j0i8i30.tgQldR8eVOg&ved=0ahUKEwiM8ou7lK_oAhWHXM0KHd1MBUoQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584917237219
> 
> Cancer care,
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk02SIWfivS3zhRThA34hPNErGAEiUg%3A1584917306385&ei=Out3XuaIF82FtQadjbvACw&q=cancer+care++covid-19&oq=cancer+care++covid-19&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7400.7400..8531...0.0..0.163.377.1j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39.czZS5_zJwP8&ved=0ahUKEwjmja6Ila_oAhXNQs0KHZ3GDrgQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584917317802



It already has in the US and will just be a matter of time before it starts here if it hasn't already.  I read somewhere that routine screening tests and even follow up cancer screenings have stopped here.


----------



## blacktriangle

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Come on Quirky and RE.....the Toronto South Detention Centre needs employees....step up and let's see your bravado.



If you have enough pull to get it cleared with my boss...I will gladly volunteer. Send me a PM if serious. Failing that, lots of people will be looking for jobs soon...there will be no shortage of applicants. 

Best wishes to you all.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *White supremacists encouraging their members to spread coronavirus to cops, Jews, FBI says*
> 
> The alert was sent to local police agencies by federal officials.
> 
> Racist extremist groups, including neo-Nazis and other white supremacists, are encouraging members who contract novel coronavirus disease to spread the contagion to cops and Jews, according to intelligence gathered by the FBI.
> 
> In an alert obtained by ABC News, the FBI’s New York office reports that "members of extremist groups are encouraging one another to spread the virus, if contracted, through bodily fluids and personal interactions."
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supremacists-encouraging-members-spread-coronavirus-cops-jews/story?id=69737522


----------



## GR66

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Ok I have to break radio silence to say this...for all you know Quirky is somewhere ensuring our aircraft can operate and respond as needed. His wife is also on the front lines helping in this crisis. Can you say the same?
> 
> And he's right on the economy. Although for most of the posters living with comfortable pensions etc, I'm sure you guys don't care...you will be grandfathered.
> 
> If you guys want to bash someone...bash the Prime Minister. He could have dealt with border and travel issues months ago, and reduced a lot of this from even reaching our shores. But he was more worried about making sure no one was mean or racist...
> 
> You don't have to agree with his opinion, but he's entitled to share it (although I doubt he will waste many more keystrokes)



Please don't assume that just because we express concern on this site that we're all retirees with comfortable pensions.  I'm 53 and work in the private sector and have no pension. 

I get the concerns about the economy.  The effects on people like me are significant and potentially life changing.  Neither my wife or I have government or company pensions to support us when we're eventually able to retire and this crash is destroying our investments and we don't have the benefit of decades of working to recover.  

My parents lived through the tail end of the Great Depression and WWII.  My uncle served in the war, my parents dealt with rationing and were brought up on stories of the bead lines, etc. during the 30's.  

I've never experienced economic hardship like that and I hope that I never do.  But if it does happen, as Canadians we're the global lottery winners that have the great fortune to live in a country that is blessed with abundant resources and a well educated and generally peaceable population.

Working together we can overcome a great many hardships.  We may not be fortunate enough to have the comfortable lives we dream of, but we can at least pull together and get each other through this.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *13 health-care workers in Toronto test positive for COVID-19*
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/13-health-care-workers-in-toronto-test-positive-for-covid-19-1.4863657


----------



## Weinie

GR66 said:
			
		

> Please don't assume that just because we express concern on this site that we're all retirees with comfortable pensions.  I'm 53 and work in the private sector and have no pension.
> 
> I get the concerns about the economy.  The effects on people like me are significant and potentially life changing.  Neither my wife or I have government or company pensions to support us when we're eventually able to retire and this crash is destroying our investments and we don't have the benefit of decades of working to recover.
> 
> My parents lived through the tail end of the Great Depression and WWII.  My uncle served in the war, my parents dealt with rationing and were brought up on stories of the bead lines, etc. during the 30's.
> 
> I've never experienced economic hardship like that and I hope that I never do.  But if it does happen, as Canadians we're the global lottery winners that have the great fortune to live in a country that is blessed with abundant resources and a well educated and generally peaceable population.
> 
> Working together we can overcome a great many hardships.  We may not be fortunate enough to have the comfortable lives we dream of, but we can at least pull together and get each other through this.



GR66,

Great post and hopefully puts things in perspective.

I would add, without getting overly dramatic, that some of us on this site need to remember we in the CAF have one primary role; to defend Canada and protect its' citizens, notwithstanding the threat, the political approach, or the economic consequences.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Quirky]I know most of you here don't care about that, you've done your time and can sit comfortably at home, getting that cheque from the government. Screw the working class right?
[/quote]

 :tsktsk:


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...the Toronto South Detention Centre needs employees....step up and let's see your bravado.



Speaking of which, how are the prisons wrt exposure? I haven’t seen/heard anything except on the US side of things. 


 Report: Harvey Weinstein Tests Positive for Coronavirus in Prison

 https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/03/coronavirus-harvey-weinstein


----------



## stellarpanther

I hope I word this correctly or I'm going to be slammed but here it goes: Even if this gets to a worse case scenario and the entire economy collapses around the world, things are going to recover.  This isn't the end of civilization.  We'll eventually get though this.  Maybe if it gets really bad, it will be a great time to change how the economy works.  I can't really put what I mean into words but hopefully someone understands me.


----------



## blacktriangle

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, how are the prisons wrt exposure? I haven’t seen/heard anything except on the US side of things.
> 
> 
> Report: Harvey Weinstein Tests Positive for Coronavirus in Prison
> 
> https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/03/coronavirus-harvey-weinstein



I know they had a CO at TSDC test positive for it... it was in the news a few days ago (and I think it was what Bruce was getting at in his post)


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=GR66]

Working together we can overcome a great many hardships.  We may not be fortunate enough to have the comfortable lives we dream of, but we can at least pull together and get each other through this.
[/quote]

Maybe at the end of this we'll have some new insight and respect for how fragile our economy, jobs and livelihood can be.


----------



## ballz

If today is any indication, we might finally be reducing the growth rate and avoiding catastrophe. Certainly too early to do a victory lap.

A growth rate of 20% means we would double our cases every 4 days and we'd be on track to be the next Italy. The past few days we've been above that 20%, but today the growth rate reduced by half from 22% yesterday to 11% today.

The last few days:

17 Mar - 598
18 Mar - 727 (grew by 129 cases over the previous day), or 21.57%
19 Mar - 873 (grew by 146 cases over the previous day), or 20.08%
20 Mar - 1087 (grew by 214 cases over the previous day), or 24.5%
21 Mar - 1328 (grew by 241 cases over the previous day), or 22.17%
22 Mar - 1479 (grew by 151 cases over the previous day), or 11.37%

Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/



Also, the dog-piling in this thread is getting pretty out of hand and Canada is not quite in crisis yet, just flirting with it.


----------



## brihard

ballz said:
			
		

> If today is any indication, we might finally be reducing the growth rate and avoiding catastrophe. Certainly too early to do a victory lap.
> 
> A growth rate of 20% means we would double our cases every 4 days and we'd be on track to be the next Italy. The past few days we've been above that 20%, but today the growth rate reduced by half from 22% yesterday to 11% today.
> 
> The last few days:
> 
> 17 Mar - 598
> 18 Mar - 727 grew by 129 cases, or 21.57%
> 19 Mar - 873 grew by 146 cases, or 20.08%
> 20 Mar - 1087 grew by 214 cases, or 24.5%
> 21 Mar - 1328 grew by 241 cases, or 22.17%
> 22 Mar - 1479, grew by 151 cases, or 11.37%
> 
> Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/canada/
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the dog-piling in this thread is getting pretty out of hand and Canada is not quite in crisis yet, just flirting with it.



No, unfortunately. A couple points:

Nothing we have done in social distancing is likely to yet reflect in the statistics. The stats are based on tested cases. For someone to be tested they must meet the criteria in their province, and have gotten sick enough to have gone for care. Unfortunately, the criteria for getting tested are quite specific. Most people won't get tested. Essentially if they don't have travel history and symptoms aren't very serious.

Second, it looks like pretty much everywhere has hit their testing capacity. I don't mean the swabbing, but the actual testing of the swabs. Ontario's "cases under investigation" - that is, the number of swabs in line to get tested - continues to increase faster than they can test. They've now got a backlog of about 8300 samples and growing. They seem to be able to test a couple thousand a day here. I've also heard from a friend who's a nurse that they're running short of a chemical reagent necessary to actually chemically process the test- they're low on one of the ingredients.

So- if they can only text X number of people per day, that necessarily means that tested positive cases as a percentage of total cases will fall. But that's deceptive.

The number we're starting to see and that really counts is how many cases in a given time are in ICU. That's the critical choke point. That's where people live or die. Our ICUs already run close to maximum capacity anyway - it's still flu season, don't forget - so there is little surplus of beds, ventilators, or qualified staff available to take on what's coming.

Data quality is going to degrade as this grows, that's unavoidable.


----------



## ballz

Remius said:
			
		

> Ha!  I doubt it. The laws heavily favour the tenant.
> 
> In all seriousness though, I bet they will just tell you to deal with your bank.
> 
> I was a landlord up until last summer.  I had a good tenant that would have probably put herself into serious debt to keep paying me.  To be honest I could have absorbed the hit for a few months if she couldn’t have paid but I know a lot of smaller landlords can’t afford that kind of cost absorption.
> 
> I imagine their will be a lot of cases of defaulted rents after this is said and done.



I'm not optimistic about any landlord support either. I'm also in the same boat that I can live without the rent money for a few months if the upstairs tenant is in genuine need (particularly if the young fella downstairs keeps paying, and he's CAF so...) and am not interesting in trying to collect if they are. I'm not facing the same kind of financial consequences many people are, I'm not going to be a d*ck about it when there are people in genuine need. If I lose a few thousand bucks out of all this I should only be grateful.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in Ontario ...


> Ontario's government is using its state of emergency declaration to give hospitals temporary new powers to respond to the pandemic, including overriding collective agreements to move staff between locations and to COVID-19 assessment centres without notice.
> 
> Hospitals can now immediately redeploy staff to different hospital areas or work assignments, change schedules or cancel vacations, the health ministry said in a release on Saturday night.
> 
> Hospitals can also employ volunteers or extra part-time or temporary workers, including for unionized work, the ministry said. They can also assign non-bargaining unit employees or contractors to do union work, the ministry said.
> 
> These plans "temporarily supersede" collective agreement rules, the government says, including for lay-offs, seniority and bumping.
> 
> "For example, currently a hospital would be required to post a lay-off notice and wait a period of time before being able to move a nurse or other unionized employee from an emergency department to a COVID-19 assessment centre," the government said in a release.
> 
> "These measures would allow for the redeployment of staff to address the containment of COVID-19 without restriction or delay."
> 
> The new government order is currently in place for 14 days as of Saturday, under the Emergency Management and Civil Protection Act ...


----------



## stellarpanther

I thought about this, this morning while laying in bed, too lazy to get up.  We, here in North America are really only about a week into this and only a few days into the tougher restrictions both military and civilians.  Some people are in outright panic mode.  What's it going to be like if we do need to extend this for a month or two or several months?  Are we in the CAF going to continue keeping the dispersed posture we are currently in?  What happens to people that are on their second T-Cat's that aren't getting treatment, will they just allow a third instead of a review board because of this unique situation we are in?  What about people in the Transition Centre on RTW plans that are not working, will they be penalized?  These are all good questions in my opinion.  I read somewhere, perhaps the last Frag O that said they could order all of the CAF to shelter on the bases and seal them.  I would think that would be a horrible idea because both members and family at home would be going crazy and all end up with PTSD by the time it's over. There's more examples I could mention but I think everyone understands what I mean?  Do any of the higher ups on here know anything about this and if it's being looked at yet?  I know it's still early in this.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Milnews:


> ... Hospitals can now immediately redeploy staff to different hospital areas or work assignments, change schedules or cancel vacations, the health ministry said in a release on Saturday night...



Yes. ‘Friend of mine is currently working in the cancer centre at our local General. Prior, she had 12yrs in intensive care. (Prior to that, she worked Emerg) She’s still on 2wk isolation after returning from the States, but said she’s expecting to be transferred.

Brihard:


> ...Nothing we have done in social distancing is likely to yet reflect in the statistics. The stats are based on tested cases. For someone to be tested they must meet the criteria in their province, and have gotten sick enough to have gone for care. Unfortunately, the criteria for getting tested are quite specific. Most people won't get tested. Essentially if they don't have travel history and symptoms aren't very serious...



As well, there are still too many instances of likely exposure occurring that haven’t made their way into any statistics yet; both of the initial incident, as well as those becoming infected as a direct result. There are other similar types of articles circulating from multiple provinces. I’m confident in saying it’s simply too early, yet, to give weight to any patterns reflecting a possible decrease from any recorded stats in Canada at this point.

Examples:

 More than 50 nurses exposed to COVID-19 patient, union says

 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/nurses-covid-19-st-marys-hospital-kitchener-ona-masks-1.5505981

 'This is unsafe': Toyota workers react to extended shutdown after employee tests positive for COVID-19

 https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/this-is-unsafe-toyota-workers-react-to-extended-shutdown-after-employee-tests-positive-for-covid-19-1.4860205


----------



## brihard

The community facebook group I'm monitoring for my area has a constant stream of people asking how to report those back from at risk areas who aren't isolating. it's a big problem.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I hope I word this correctly or I'm going to be slammed but here it goes: Even if this gets to a worse case scenario and the entire economy collapses around the world, things are going to recover.  This isn't the end of civilization.  We'll eventually get though this.  Maybe if it gets really bad, it will be a great time to change how the economy works.  I can't really put what I mean into words but hopefully someone understands me.



You haven’t said anything to be slammed for. You’re correct—Everything always bounces back...at some point...until it’s affected negatively by the next thing; whatever it may be.

It’ll just be a matter of assessing the impact to its full extent once all is settled, and figuring out the most efficient and cost-effective way(s) to repair any damage done. That can be a lengthy and complicated process. 

Governments at all levels, as well as private companies are (starting to) implement measures to help minimize the overall impact of all of this. For example, some grocery store chains are upping the wages for their employees, people/employers are organizing daycare centre access for essential workers, etc. But even those positive implementations will have ripple effects to some degree at some point. No good deed, as they say...


----------



## Brad Sallows

"We won't stay in our homes, we built this economy, screw all you working class"

1. So far, it looks like the younger people who are having trouble staying away from crowds.

2. Some of the working class's members continue working after they reach nominal retirement age, in order to enjoy a more comfortable life.

Old people vote, too; still represent a cohort bulge; and tend to be more likely to vote.  If they see enough "let the old die" rhetoric but the virus doesn't kill them off, do you suppose they might feel a little vengeful?


----------



## Remius

There is also an article out today explaining how universal income would help weather something like this outbreak. 

One thing is for sure things will be different on a lot levels when all is said and done.


----------



## Brad Sallows

We don't need government intervention to smooth out the economic disruptions.  Common sense and social pressure might be enough.

At most times it makes sense for creditors to repossess, foreclose, and evict, because there is a viable market (demand) for the asset, and only a modest amount of opprobrium attached to the act.  Both of those conditions no longer apply.

Suppose Fast Eddie's Auto Mall repossesses a car, and assumes responsibility for ensuring it, providing a place to store it, looking after it, etc.  Suppose the Bohlwinkel Bank forecloses a mortgage, assuming responsibility for insurance, upkeep, security, keeping lawns and sidewalks maintained to community standards, etc.  Suppose the Slumlord Investment Group evicts renters, assuming responsibility for (essentially the same list a mortgage foreclosure).  What have they done?  They have each assumed additional costs, in what is likely to be a very weak market - if so many people are short, who can afford to buy in?

And, I suppose that when word gets out that Fast Eddie etc are turning people out of their cars and homes and whatnot, the reputational damage will be immense.  Will any business which takes advantage of people during these extremely atypical times have a prayer when normality resumes?

And, for any cash-rich organizations caught scooping up assets at fire sale prices, there will be a similar reckoning.


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> There is also an article out today explaining how universal income would help weather something like this outbreak.
> 
> One thing is for sure things will be different on a lot levels when all is said and done.


Hopefully in a good way but things do need to change because it's very hard for a lot of people to get ahead anymore, people can't find full time work etc.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>There is also an article out today explaining how universal income would help weather something like this outbreak.

There was one on CBC.  Even disregarding all the cost analyses* I have read which put the cost somewhere out beyond the orbit of Pluto, I laughed.  The author assumes EI would be part of the pot - that's not a reasonable assumption.  EI is not funded by general revenues; it is funded by premiums deducted from people's pay.  If EI stops, those premiums revert to those people.  I doubt working voters will tolerate a situation in which there is a cost to people who income mainly derives from labour that is not shared equally by people whose income includes substantial amounts from other sources like capital gains and dividends.  If the UBI proponents want an amount of money equal to the EI kitty, they're going to have to seek it from general revenues.  Good luck with that.

*TLDR for such studies is typically: an income amount bearable by taxpayers would be too small to be useful; a useful income about would not be borne.


----------



## daftandbarmy

It starts with not having enough room in the hospitals, then turns into a 'not enough jails' thing....


Coronavirus: 400 arrested in Jordan for violating nationwide curfew 

Armoured police vehicles patrol main cities as people who leave their homes face up to year in jail

Nearly 400 people have been arrested in Jordan for violating an indefinite curfew introduced on Saturday that bans people from leaving their homes even to purchase food.

Breaching the anti-coronavirus orders, thought to be the most stringent to be applied nationally anywhere in the world, is punishable with up to one year in prison.

The start of the curfew was signalled at 7am on Saturday morning by air-raid sirens that sounded across the capital, Amman.

At least 392 people had been arrested for ignoring the measures by Saturday afternoon, Jordan’s Roya TV said.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/21/coronavirus-jordan-begins-nationwide-curfew-for-10m-citizens


----------



## Infanteer

Quirky said:
			
		

> There is no point reasoning with this crowd on this topic since most of you just don't get it.



Nice try - you never even bothered responding to my counterpoint.  It's clear that you aren't here to actually discuss anything, or you would have considered the problem I posed.  What happens if we do nothing and the r0 causes thousands to tens of thousands of seriously ill 20-65 year olds in need of hospitalization, all at the same time?


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It starts with not having enough room in the hospitals, then turns into a 'not enough jails' thing....
> 
> 
> Coronavirus: 400 arrested in Jordan for violating nationwide curfew
> 
> Armoured police vehicles patrol main cities as people who leave their homes face up to year in jail
> 
> Nearly 400 people have been arrested in Jordan for violating an indefinite curfew introduced on Saturday that bans people from leaving their homes even to purchase food.
> 
> Breaching the anti-coronavirus orders, thought to be the most stringent to be applied nationally anywhere in the world, is punishable with up to one year in prison.
> 
> The start of the curfew was signalled at 7am on Saturday morning by air-raid sirens that sounded across the capital, Amman.
> 
> At least 392 people had been arrested for ignoring the measures by Saturday afternoon, Jordan’s Roya TV said.
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/21/coronavirus-jordan-begins-nationwide-curfew-for-10m-citizens


I think that's what is required here.  Start going to the parks, malls and neighborhood's and arrest all the people playing volleyball, soccer etc.  Word will get out fast.  
One thing that confuses me though is that they are basically saying only go out to get food and medicine etc and going for a walk is ok but keep a distance of 2 metres.  Why though are the malls etc still open?  Shut the stupid things down and don't give people the option. Too many people have already proven they don't listen well to instructions.  I'm willing to bet people are still going and teenagers still hanging out.  I also wonder if the police will really do anything about it if they see them?  No more warnings, arrest on site any group exceeding the limit or not following the social distancing order.  Let's take it as serious as it is.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I think that's what is required here.  Start going to the parks, malls and neighborhood's and arrest all the people playing volleyball, soccer etc.  Word will get out fast.
> One thing that confuses me though is that they are basically saying only go out to get food and medicine etc and going for a walk is ok but keep a distance of 2 metres.  Why though are the malls etc still open?  Shut the stupid things down and don't give people the option. Too many people have already proven they don't listen well to instructions.  I'm willing to bet people are still going and teenagers still hanging out.  I also wonder if the police will really do anything about it if they see them?  No more warnings, arrest on site any group exceeding the limit or not following the social distancing order.  Let's take it as serious as it is.



There are huge consequences that go along with locking down a population for any period of time, psychological, financial and otherwise... it's not something to be undertaken lightly.


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> There are huge consequences that go along with locking down a population for any period of time, psychological, financial and otherwise... it's not something to be undertaken lightly.



Besides, where you plan on housing all those arrested?

The jails all over Canada are overcrowded and that creates problems itself. Now toss in some of those who didn’t isolate and now there are more problems - real criminals preying on the newbies.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

the Malaysian police just hit them with batons, message sent....


----------



## stellarpanther

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Besides, where you plan on housing all those arrested?
> 
> The jails all over Canada are overcrowded and that creates problems itself. Now toss in some of those who didn’t isolate and now there are more problems - real criminals preying on the newbies.


I don't think mass arrests would be needed.  Once word got out which would happen quickly, everyone else will fall in line and listen better.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't think mass arrests would be needed.



I'm not a lawyer. But, wouldn't it be more likely by-law enforcement writing tickets? 

In other news,

A woman arrested for assaulting her boyfriend shouted “I have the coronavirus” before intentionally coughing in the face of a paramedic who she sprayed with “copious amounts of saliva."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/coronavirus-cougher-971235


----------



## Eye In The Sky

People like the woman above...if they got hit with a baton, I'd have no issue with it...


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> I'm not a lawyer. But, wouldn't it be more likely by-law enforcement writing tickets?
> 
> In other news,
> 
> A woman arrested for assaulting her boyfriend shouted “I have the coronavirus” before intentionally coughing in the face of a paramedic who she sprayed with “copious amounts of saliva."
> 
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/coronavirus-cougher-971235



Bylaw can only do municipal bylaw stuff. So far the emergency measures are all under provincial law. Violations of same would be likely investigated and charged by police. There may be other categories of public officers with peace officer status under some of the legislation in play that I'm not familiar with who could potentially also have these authorities, but I don't know.


----------



## mariomike

Read about young people having "corona parties". 

Obviously did not get the memo.


----------



## Scoopster

Good morning all,

My name is Lee Berthiaume and I cover DND and the CAF for The Canadian Press in Ottawa. I am writing here in search of a service member and/or their family who is overseas right now. My hope is to find someone who will talk about their experience dealing with COVID while the member is overseas, and how they are managing. I think this is an important story given the unique circumstances that CAF members and their families are facing.

I can be reached at 613-809-9712 or lee.berthiaume@thecanadianpress.com.

Thank you very much and stay safe everyone.


----------



## kev994

You need to talk to the public affairs officer. You know that.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> Read about young people having "corona parties".
> 
> Obviously did not get the memo.



That picture is at least a dozen years old.


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:
			
		

> That picture is at least a dozen years old.



It was intended as humour: "the ability to find things funny, the way in which people see that some things are funny, or the quality of being funny"


----------



## OldSolduer

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't think mass arrests would be needed.  Once word got out which would happen quickly, everyone else will fall in line and listen better.



Maybe not - BUT you still have to house them somewhere. Career criminals prey on people that are inexperienced in a correctional setting.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> It was intended as humour: "the ability to find things funny, the way in which people see that some things are funny, or the quality of being funny"



It's a dishonest post, it tends to lead to a person believing christian groups are encouraging such behaviour.


----------



## brihard

kev994 said:
			
		

> You need to talk to the public affairs officer. You know that.



He doesn't 'need to'. The institution *wants* him to so they can control the messaging. That's not his problem and he isn't bound by CAF's desires or expectations.


----------



## mariomike

Lee Berthiaume is pretty well known on this site,

https://www.google.com/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&sxsrf=ALeKk03uhT2LQf-J2LGPgvYz72ycO4xC8w%3A1584973451866&ei=i8Z4Xq69NInNtQaA04qICQ&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Lee+Berthiaume%22&oq=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22Lee+Berthiaume%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...8147.11920..12404...0.0..0.209.648.0j3j1......0....1..gws-wiz.5kg996mexIo&ved=0ahUKEwjurs6c5rDoAhWJZs0KHYCpApEQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#spf=1584973465640


----------



## dimsum

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't think mass arrests would be needed.  Once word got out which would happen quickly, everyone else will fall in line and listen better.



Yeah, there definitely would not be anyone rebelling against that at all.  :


----------



## mariomike

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Yeah, there definitely would not be anyone rebelling against that at all.  :



Memories of G20 Toronto. The largest mass arrest in Canadian history.


----------



## Underway

mariomike said:
			
		

> I'm not a lawyer. But, wouldn't it be more likely by-law enforcement writing tickets?
> 
> In other news,
> 
> A woman arrested for assaulting her boyfriend shouted “I have the coronavirus” before intentionally coughing in the face of a paramedic who she sprayed with “copious amounts of saliva."
> 
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/coronavirus-cougher-971235



There is plenty of case law out there which if the paramedic or boyfriend were to become sick then she would be charged criminal negligence causing bodily harm, or other offences.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6654692/criminal-liability-coronavirus-canada/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Arresting more folk when we are trying to get rid of some incarcerated folk?  Doesn't really help....which is unfortunate, but it is reality.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *National Guard to deploy against coronavirus in NY, California, Washington*
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-live-updates-us-now-highest-globally-covid/story?id=69733219





> *Tunisia orders army into streets to enforce coronavirus lockdown*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-tunisia-army/tunisia-orders-army-into-streets-to-enforce-coronavirus-lockdown-idUSKBN21A2EH


----------



## dimsum

From the March 22 daily update.  I don't think I've seen/heard a leader of a country directly address children in a national broadcast before.  



> Coronavirus outbreak: Trudeau thanks kids for doing their part during the COVID-19 crisis
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke directly to kids about the situation around the country with COVID-19 and he thanked them for doing their part by following the guidelines including social distancing and washing your hands.
> 
> Transcript:
> 
> And to all the kids out there, all of a sudden you’ve heard you can’t go on playdates or have sleepovers. Your playgrounds and schools have closed, and your March Break was certainly different than what you’d hoped for. I get it from my kids as well, they’re watching a whole lot more movies, but they miss their friends, and at the same time they’re worried about what’s going on our there in the world and what their future may hold. I know this is a big change but we have to do this not just for ourselves, but for our grandparents, our nurses, our doctors and everyone working at our hospitals. And you kids are helping a lot. The doctors and scientists have been clear that social distancing — which means staying at least two metres apart, and staying home as much as possible — is the best way to help each other. And you’re having to wash your hands a lot. So a special thanks to all you kids. Thank you for helping your parents work from home. For sacrificing your usual day, for doing math class around the kitchen table, and for trusting in science. We’re going to have more to say to you soon, so stay tuned.



https://globalnews.ca/video/6715130/coronavirus-outbreak-trudeau-thanks-kids-for-doing-their-part-during-this-covid-19-crisis?fbclid=IwAR1jNqzUpUbTNcM3Ujdy2GCpJ6uiKj0sRUXSyRtpxqX_YS1hjQ6tLzIoadQ


----------



## CountDC

so when they call on the CAF to assist I guess I should stay home and let all those young working class folks respond.  ;D


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Lupus patients struggle to fill prescriptions after Trump touts drug for COVID-19: "This is endangering lives"*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-lupus-patients-struggle-fill-prescriptions-after-trump-touts-vital-drug-as-covid-19-treatment/





> *On a call with Trump officials, police chief pleads: 'Stop testing NBA players, start testing first responders'*
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/call-trump-officials-police-chief-pleads-stop-testing/story?id=69739541


----------



## Quirky

garb811 said:
			
		

> Yeah, actually I can, and I can safely say I'm a lot more "front line" than Quirky ever will likely be.  As can a whole lot of the people on this board.



I was waiting for someone to say that, what does that even mean? Being an MP is more "front line" than someone who kept aircraft flying in theatre, or for direct NORAD air defence? You are the type of person who hates on the cook and supply tech too, because you are more "front line"? This is the type of mentality that the CF needs to get rid of, we are all in this together. Being a mod you should know better.  :facepalm:


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> I was waiting for someone to say that, what does that even mean? Being an MP is more "front line" than someone who kept aircraft flying in theatre, or for direct NORAD air defence? You are the type of person who hates on the cook and supply tech too, because you are more "front line"? This is the type of mentality that the CF needs to get rid of, we are all in this together. Being a mod you should know better.  :facepalm:



No. He, and a lot of us, are or will be a lot more ‘front line’ in the pandemic than you will be. We will be at greater risk of dealing with the infected or the public, and of contracting the virus due to the demands of our job. We fill face a greater risk of hospitalization and life altering illness. We will face a greater risk of passing it on to other front line workers. We will present a greater risk to our friends or family who are elderly, immunocompromised, or have underlying health conditions. The ones whose deaths you seem to care little about but that many of us are more concerned about.

Put the shovel away and quit digging. You aren’t impressing anyone with your BS.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> I was waiting for someone to say that, what does that even mean? Being an MP is more "front line" than someone who kept aircraft flying in theatre, or for direct NORAD air defence? You are the type of person who hates on the cook and supply tech too, because you are more "front line"? This is the type of mentality that the CF needs to get rid of, we are all in this together. Being a mod you should know better.  :facepalm:



Quirky, you are confusing frontline with essential.  Some are both, some are not and some are neither. 

Put it like this.  Frontline like garb811 and Brihard are carrying respirator masks right now to interact and do their jobs.  In most cases they are going into unknown and uncontrolled situations. And may have to respond to people that are actually infected.

What you do is essential.  But they are way more on the front line than you or I are right now. 

This isn’t a combat arms vs everyone else argument.  Not even sure why you are bringing that up.  You really are spoiling for fight aren’t you? 

Someone called out garb811 he answered.  I happen to know what he does, it’s no secret and wish him well and don’t envy his job.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:
			
		

> Put it like this.  Frontline like garb811 and Brihard are carrying respirator masks right now to interact and do their jobs.  In most cases they are going into unknown and uncontrolled situations. And may have to respond to people that are actually infected.



I’m not out there yet- still held in reserve. I think I will be soon, and I think things could get pretty bad. The more we can reduce this the better. I’m less fearful for myself (though 20% reduced lung capacity long term would suck and would be career altering), and am more fearful for my friends and family on the ambulances and in the hospitals. Just so it’s clear and I’m not claiming anything about myself that isn’t (yet) the case. Hence ‘or will be’ in my last reply.

I have zero patience for the ‘let it burn through’ attitude, or for any mindset that contributes to people being at risk.


----------



## stellarpanther

kev994 said:
			
		

> You need to talk to the public affairs officer. You know that.


I think they're looking for someone with first hand experience instead of from a person with previously discussed talking points.


----------



## stellarpanther

Thinking more about my "arrest them" comment makes me think that it might not be the right answer but something more needs to be done.  Just telling them not to do what they're doing isn't working because these people don't care.  They can't just be ignored and allowed to continue.  Since the government is calling this extraordinary tines.  Take extraordinary measures.  Tow their cars, suspend their drivers license for 30 days as a penalty.  Do something besides just telling them to go home.


----------



## Brad Sallows

What needs to happen can't be done by coercion, in Canada.  We haven't the police state to make the bluff stick.  Social (peer) pressure is the lever to use.  I suppose everyone active on social media (especially FB) has seen at least one plea from a "friend" to stop close socializing?  Making pariahs out of the stubbornly imprudent people is the most effective persuasion.


----------



## PuckChaser

Scoopster said:
			
		

> Good morning all,
> 
> My name is Lee Berthiaume and I cover DND and the CAF for The Canadian Press in Ottawa. I am writing here in search of a service member and/or their family who is overseas right now. My hope is to find someone who will talk about their experience dealing with COVID while the member is overseas, and how they are managing. I think this is an important story given the unique circumstances that CAF members and their families are facing.
> 
> I can be reached at 613-809-9712 or lee.berthiaume@thecanadianpress.com.
> 
> Thank you very much and stay safe everyone.



Folks,

If you follow a lot of CAF-related news stories, you'll notice Lee is one of the few that I've found to not deliberately sensationalize or spin a story to make us look bad. He's been factual and without a political agenda (which is rare to see now) thus far. If you're so inclined to speak with him, you can always reach out to the PAFFO to get some media relations guidelines.

Lee: Good luck on sourcing your story, look forward to reading it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Scoopster]
I can be reached at 613-809-9712 or lee.berthiaume@thecanadianpress.com.

Thank you very much and stay safe everyone.


[/quote]

Since PuckChaser is vouching for you I'll send you a PM on here and hook you up with someone.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Here it is:



> *Florida college students test positive for coronavirus after going on spring break*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-florida-spring-break-test-positive-covid-19-college-students-not-social-distancing-university-of-tampa/


----------



## kratz

[quote author=Scoopster]
I can be reached at 613-809-9712 or lee.berthiaume@thecanadianpress.com.

Thank you very much and stay safe everyone.
[/quote]

 Lee Berthiaume is a recognised journalist. I'm comfortable to see him here.

Compared to past media interest, at least his post is transparent  and 
Lee is not hiding or muck raking.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I think that's what is required here.  Start going to the parks, malls and neighborhood's and arrest all the people playing volleyball, soccer etc.  Word will get out fast.



What are you going to arrest them for? The emergency declared here in Ontario
states "_all organized public events of over fifty people are also prohibited_." So, anything under 50 people is legal. 



> One thing that confuses me though is that they are basically saying only go out to get food and medicine etc and going for a walk is ok but keep a distance of 2 metres.  Why though are the malls etc still open?  Shut the stupid things down and don't give people the option. Too many people have already proven they don't listen well to instructions.  I'm willing to bet people are still going and teenagers still hanging out.  I also wonder if the police will really do anything about it if they see them?  No more warnings, arrest on site any group exceeding the limit or not following the social distancing order.  Let's take it as serious as it is.



The reason the malls are open is because the Premier, in declaring an emergency exempted them closure. This emergency (Ontario) is valid until 31 March, when it will be reviewed and a decision made for an extension or not. 

Source.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Since PuckChaser is vouching for you I'll send you a PM on here and hook you up with someone.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> What are you going to arrest them for? The emergency declared here in Ontario
> states "_all organized public events of over fifty people are also prohibited_." So, anything under 50 people is legal.
> 
> The reason the malls are open is because the Premier, in declaring an emergency exempted them closure. This emergency (Ontario) is valid until 31 March, when it will be reviewed and a decision made for an extension or not.
> 
> Source.



Last time I was at a mall (early last week) half of the shops were closed, just the small independents are open for the most part and walmart


----------



## The Bread Guy

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The reason the malls are open is because the Premier, in declaring an emergency exempted them closure. This emergency (Ontario) is valid until 31 March, when it will be reviewed and a decision made for an extension or not.


This thing is evolving daily, almost hourly -- Ontario's premier is still speaking but this just out ....


> Premier Doug Ford is ordering all non-essential services to shut down to help slow the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> The order will take effect at 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday and will last for 14 days.
> 
> Ford said a list will be provided on Tuesday detailing what businesses will be allowed to stay open.
> 
> “The next 36 hours will give non-essential businesses the chance to adapt and prepare,” Ford said.
> 
> "This was a very tough decision but it is the right decision. This is not the time for half-measures. This decision was not made lightly. The gravity of this order does not escape me. But as a I said from day one, we will and must take all the steps to slow the spread of COVID-19."
> 
> The move comes as the number of cases of the virus continues to surge in the province.
> 
> Ontario confirmed 78 new cases of COVID-19 on Monday, bringing the total number to 503 including 6 deaths and eight recoveries.] Premier Doug Ford is ordering all non-essential services to shut down to help slow the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> The order will take effect at 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday and will last for 14 days.
> 
> Ford said a list will be provided on Tuesday detailing what businesses will be allowed to stay open.
> 
> “The next 36 hours will give non-essential businesses the chance to adapt and prepare,” Ford said.
> 
> "This was a very tough decision but it is the right decision. This is not the time for half-measures. This decision was not made lightly. The gravity of this order does not escape me. But as a I said from day one, we will and must take all the steps to slow the spread of COVID-19."
> 
> The move comes as the number of cases of the virus continues to surge in the province.
> 
> Ontario confirmed 78 new cases of COVID-19 on Monday, bringing the total number to 503 including 6 deaths and eight recoveries.


More from the Ontario gov't:


> To further contain the spread of COVID-19, the Ontario Government will order the mandatory closure of all non-essential workplaces effective as of Tuesday, March 24th at 11:59 p.m. This closure will be in effect for 14 days with the possibility of extending this order as the situation evolves. A full list of businesses that are permitted to stay open will be released tomorrow.
> 
> "This was a tough decision, but the right decision, as this is no time for half measures," said Premier Doug Ford. "But I have said from day one we will, and we must, take all steps necessary to slow the spread of COVID-19. The health and safety of every Ontarian must come first. The health of you, your children, your grandparents and friends depends on all of us doing our part."
> 
> Businesses that can continue operations with employees working remotely, or through other contingency measures, are being given approximately 36 hours to prepare and adapt. Essential services may continue their operations to maintain supply chains and ensure the people of Ontario have access to necessities, including groceries, medicines and other essential products.
> 
> A 1-800 number and website will be made available on Wednesday for any inquiries ...



_- OP edit to fix format & add Ontario gov't statement -_


----------



## my72jeep

Dimsum said:
			
		

> From the March 22 daily update.  I don't think I've seen/heard a leader of a country directly address children in a national broadcast before.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/video/6715130/coronavirus-outbreak-trudeau-thanks-kids-for-doing-their-part-during-this-covid-19-crisis?fbclid=IwAR1jNqzUpUbTNcM3Ujdy2GCpJ6uiKj0sRUXSyRtpxqX_YS1hjQ6tLzIoadQ


Speaking to the kids because adults are tired of hearing him um ah hmm his way through a question?


----------



## OldSolduer

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Speaking to the kids because adults are tired of hearing him um ah hmm his way through a question?



Kids may also take his message more seriously than some adults. 

In the old USSR and other dictatorships they encouraged the kids to rat out adults who aren't loyal to whatever dictator is in power.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Vancouver approves up to $50k in fines for ignoring emergency coronavirus measures*
> 
> The amendment includes fines that could reach as high as $50,000 for businesses that fail to comply with emergency measures.
> 
> Enforcement officers would also be able to issue municipal tickets to individuals, as well as a fine of $1,000, the maximum amount allowed under the Vancouver Charter.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6718799/vancouver-50k-fines-ignoring-emergency-coronavirus-measures/


----------



## mariomike

This man in Italy insists on going out for coffee.

https://twitter.com/GrowingUpItalia/status/1241354307259305985


----------



## OceanBonfire

Quebec is now the province with the most confirmed cases:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102


----------



## Jarnhamar

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Quebec is now the province with the most confirmed cases:
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102



The way Vancouverites are behaving I'm surprised it's not BC.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Last time I was at a mall (early last week) half of the shops were closed, just the small independents are open for the most part and walmart



I drove by the Cat Centre yesterday and the parking lots were empty.


----------



## GR66

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Quebec is now the province with the most confirmed cases:
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/tracking-every-case-of-covid-19-in-canada-1.4852102



Quebec today started reporting Confirmed and Presumptive cases.  Most of the other provinces are still reporting just confirmed cases which is why Quebec had a big jump in their numbers.  Saskatchewan, Manitoba and New Brunswick are also including presumptive numbers in their counts.  If you scroll down on the link you provided to the province by province numbers you can see the breakdown.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

kev994 said:
			
		

> You need to talk to the public affairs officer. You know that.



I think you need to re-read his post...



> My hope is to find someone who will talk about their experience dealing with COVID while the member is overseas, and how they are managing. I think this is an important story given the unique circumstances that CAF members and their families are facing.



I think he is looking to talk to the 'spouse/loved one/partner' at home, not the/a CAF member.  No requirement for a PAO in either case, actually.  CAF mbr's have standing guidelines on what they can/can't say at any given time...


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Canada: 562 new cases and three deaths in the last 24 hours. Good news 320 recovered. 
USA: 8,617 new cases and 93 deaths.
Italy: 4,789 new cases and 601 deaths.

Worldometer


----------



## Weinie

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think you need to re-read his post...
> 
> I think he is looking to talk to the 'spouse/loved one/partner' at home, not the/a CAF member.  No requirement for a PAO in either case, actually.  *CAF mbr's have standing guidelines on what they can/can't say at any given time..*.



DOAD 2008 series applies. Basically gives CAF members leeway to talk about "their job" and "their experiences"


----------



## dapaterson

Newfoundland: Fifteen new cases, including eight tied to a single previous case.  There ahve been reports that someone returned from travel, did not self-isolate and went to two funerals, infecting others. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/long-term-care-homes-closed-visitors-1.5506532


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> DOAD 2008 series applies. Basically gives CAF members leeway to talk about "their job" and "their experiences"



And for anglophones, there's the DAOD 2008 series


----------



## stellarpanther

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> What are you going to arrest them for? The emergency declared here in Ontario
> states "_all organized public events of over fifty people are also prohibited_." So, anything under 50 people is legal.
> 
> The reason the malls are open is because the Premier, in declaring an emergency exempted them closure. This emergency (Ontario) is valid until 31 March, when it will be reviewed and a decision made for an extension or not.
> 
> Source.



In Ontario you are right it is still 50 for some reason but not in other Provinces.  Some such as Quebec and Nova Scotia are limited at 2 people.


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm curious what people here think should be done to people not following the various government orders being put out and are potentially putting others at risk.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Shame them and avoid them.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And for anglophones, there's the DAOD 2008 series



Thks. 4 kids here in the house are straining my ability to concentrate


----------



## FJAG

https://www.facebook.com/berkeleybreathed/photos/a.114529165244512/3170749019622496/?type=3&theater

Day 7 of self-isolation

Doing fine - just bought a model railroad CAD program. Reviving an old hobby.

 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm curious what people here think should be done to people not following the various government orders being put out and are potentially putting others at risk.



Shave their eyebrows off.
(A joke, just so it's obvious)


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Shave their eyebrows off.



Scarlet 19 painted on their forehead


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Shave their eyebrows off.


Or fwoh them wuffly to the gwound


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:
			
		

> Or fwoh them wuffly to the gwound



Vewwy wuffwy Centuwion. 

You, sir, are a man of good taste.


----------



## Weinie

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Vewwy wuffwy Centuwion.
> 
> You, sir, are a man of good taste.



Come see the violence inherent in the system


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:
			
		

> Come see the violence inherent in the system



What is your quest? 

What is your name?

What is the terminal velocity of a sparrow in a dive?

Or words to that effect


----------



## Weinie

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> What is your quest?
> 
> What is your name?
> 
> What is the terminal velocity of a sparrow in a dive?
> 
> Or words to that effect



African or European


----------



## Weinie

Weinie said:
			
		

> African or European


Those responsible for sacking those responsible for sacking those responsible for hijacking this thread have been sacked.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:
			
		

> African or European



Swallow, actually, not sparrow #montypythonpedant


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> Come see the violence inherent in the system



Lol, I’m taking a constitutional law class right now. The prof started the course with that scene.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Exclusive: Elite hackers target WHO as coronavirus cyberattacks spike*
> 
> Elite hackers tried to break into the World Health Organization earlier this month, sources told Reuters, part of what a senior agency official said was a more than two-fold increase in cyberattacks.
> 
> Urbelis said he picked up on the activity around March 13, when a group of hackers he’d been following activated a malicious site mimicking the WHO’s internal email system.
> 
> “I realized quite quickly that this was a live attack on the World Health Organization in the midst of a pandemic,” he said.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-hack-exclusive/exclusive-elite-hackers-target-who-as-coronavirus-cyberattacks-spike-idUSKBN21A3BN


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Swallow, actually, not sparrow #montypythonpedant



Correct. 

Who wants to join me in marchin up and down the square?


----------



## NavyShooter

Only if we maintain double standard dressing - or perhaps just have every second file blank, whilst marching at the Open Order?


----------



## tomahawk6

Or issue camo facemasks.


----------



## FJAG

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157992235971411&set=gm.3237144119651983&type=3&theater&ifg=1


----------



## brihard

Good to see we’ve all got the cheese sliding of the cracker one week into isolation.


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Good to see we’ve all got the cheese sliding of the cracker one week into isolation.


Always look on the bright side of life


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> Always look on the bright side of life



At this juncture I prefer the Galaxy Song.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OPINION: This is not a time for business as usual

It’s been happening so fast we haven’t yet had time to be astonished. So it is with the quickly unfolding coronavirus pandemic now sweeping through Europe and North America after first taking root in Asia. The unprecedented public health challenges stemming from the virus must remain at the heart of how governments respond. But the economic consequences also deserve the attention of policy-makers, including here in B.C.

The reality is that parts of our economy are shutting down, notably consumer-facing industries such as hospitality, entertainment and leisure, travel, and some segments of retail. Economy-wide spending is set to plunge as businesses curtail operations, many people practice “social distancing,” the tourism business collapses, and most consumers stop making discretionary purchases. This will rapidly lead to disappearing jobs and tens of thousands of financially destroyed companies across the province.

At the same time, global commodity prices have plummeted and foreign demand for Canadian products has dipped, putting added pressure on B.C.’s resource-centric export economy. The overall economic situation has suddenly become dire.

Today is not a time for business as usual.

https://bcbc.com/insights-and-opinions/opinion-this-is-not-a-time-for-business-as-usual


----------



## tomahawk6

There is no cause to for panic. About 1.3 % die from the disease. There is medicine available that seems effective but more tests are required.


----------



## Kilted

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> There is no cause to for panic. About 1.3 % die from the disease. There is medicine available that seems effective but more tests are required.



The global percentage is 4.36 right now, although it is almost 10 in Italy right now. Which kind of makes me wonder if China has told us everything.


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> At this juncture I prefer the Galaxy Song.


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!


----------



## quadrapiper

Kilted said:
			
		

> The global percentage is 4.36 right now, although it is almost 10 in Italy right now. Which kind of makes me wonder if China has told us everything.


The one I'm wary of is India. Really hope no news is good news.


----------



## CBH99

Kilted said:
			
		

> The global percentage is 4.36 right now, although it is almost 10 in Italy right now. Which kind of makes me wonder if China has told us everything.




Call me cynical, but due to it being China, I'm guessing that's a hard no.  This is the same country that imprisoned the doctor who first tried to warn the world about the mutated virus, and who's real numbers are obviously viewed with skepticism by the rest of the world - and rightfully so.

What I'm curious about is...why is the virus so deadly in Italy and China, compared to other countries?  Is it a more aggressive strain within the strain somehow?  Is it that initial transmission was more aggressive due to large populations in smaller geographies?  Why is Italy being so hard hit compared to other countries in the region?    :dunno:


----------



## GR66

Well, the list of “essential” services that are exempt from the province wide business closure in Ontario is out:

 https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/the-ontario-governments-list-of-essential-businesses/amp

I’m wondering who isn’t an essential service?  Clothing and Sporting Goods stores?

What’s the point if there are so many exemptions?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Indeed.

The whole panic thing still being displayed by many is lost on me. I absolutely understand the added stress that would come from a sudden change in routine, finance/employment worries, no school for kids, etc. But the deplorable actions and disregard for others by many is a whole other issue, and Canadians need to take a good look at themselves.

 The coronavirus is a truth detector. And it’s telling us a lot about what we are



> We are learning about Canada, Canadians, everything. As the coronavirus pandemic has mushroomed, the big lesson is simple: the virus is hellaciously contagious, and until we know who exactly has it we need to get away from each other to keep it from spreading. The government and media told you, again and again. Until finally, the prime minister came across like a parent: I’m not mad, but I’m disappointed. Fine, maybe a little mad.
> 
> “Enough is enough,” Trudeau said, in his daily address to Canadians. “Go home, and stay home. This is what we all need to be doing, and we’re going to make sure this happens, whether by educating people more on the risks or by enforcing the rules, if that’s needed. Nothing that could help is off the table.”
> 
> Hours after Trudeau’s call, Quebec and then Ontario shut down everything deemed non-essential, though the devil may lurk in the details. That’s 60 per cent of Canada, before you factor in similar measures in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.
> 
> It may be too late, but at least it happened. The virus is a truth detector. Who cares? Who listens? Who thinks the rules don’t apply to them, and who thinks about their neighbour? Same for governments, and even more so: who prioritizes scientific advice? Who values people, and workers? Who moves quickly enough, and effectively enough?
> 
> “I do believe that epidemic diseases show our reflection,” says Frank Snowden, the Harvard professor who wrote “Epidemics and Society,” a sweeping history of pandemics and human history. “Each disease I think is different — I don’t think that all epidemics are in any way the same — and the context in which they occur are also different, so one has to make allowances for those differences.
> 
> “But it certainly is true that these are events that tell us much more about who we are, in lots and lots of ways.”
> 
> It’s true. In the United States the country’s fundamental sicknesses have not been put aside for the pandemic, and the structural weaknesses of the superpower — the bluff of a tilted economy, for-profit health care, the failed state of the Republican Party, and the irredeemable black hole of narcissism and ignorance from its president — have not budged.
> 
> Donald Trump trumpets unproven cures, promises empty solutions, and argues with scientists on live TV to cover his failures. He is pushing the idea that the economy is more important than a health system crushed, and perhaps millions dead, as Senate Republicans fight things like paid sick leave.
> 
> In America, the mirror shows something like the days before the French Revolution, but with fewer wigs. Trust and information levels between political parties are a chasm. It is a daily tragedy.
> 
> So who are we? Broadly speaking, Canada could have been better. We’re a nation that hasn’t been societally disciplined enough to comprehensively listen to public health experts until we’re forced to. And our public health officials and governments have been too incremental.
> 
> Several public health authorities, including Ontario, are still limiting gatherings to 50, which doesn’t make any scientific sense epidemiologically, or when the message is stay six feet apart. (Quebec has limited public gatherings to two.) Especially given the testing gaps in the system, especially in Ontario, which has us still a little blind. Several doctors who do front-line testing in Toronto are apoplectic about the public health standards for who gets a test.
> 
> “I want to test everybody,” said one doctor, who asked to remain anonymous. “Anyone can have it, and we have enough tests. I had a colleague diagnosed with COVID-19, and he had the sniffles, at best. But people walk in off the street with a fever and a cough and I have to tell them, you don’t meet the testing criteria unless you called Telehealth and got a reference first.”
> 
> We’ve been too slow. Governments have been too trusting in establishing restrictions, and Canadians have not had enough societal discipline to listen to governments or responsible media. If you played beer pong in Vancouver or anywhere this weekend, your posterior should be paddled in public by someone standing six feet away.
> 
> Yes, it’s hard to rewire a free society on the fly. But we haven’t been good enough. Dr. Hugh Montgomery is a professor and the director of the University College London’s Institute for Human Health and Performance in the United Kingdom. He summed up what’s at stake as well as anything anybody has said.
> 
> “Normal flu, if I get that, I’m going to infect on average about 1.3, 1.4 people, if there was such a division,” said Montgomery told Channel 4. “And if those 1.3, 1.4 people give it to the next lot, that’s the second time it’s passed on. By the time that’s happened 10 times, I’ve been responsible for about 14 cases of the flu.
> 
> “This coronavirus is very, very infectious, so every person passes it to three. Now that doesn’t sound like much of a difference, but if each of those three passes it to three, and if that happens at 10 layers, I have been responsible for infecting 59,000 people.”
> 
> Some of those people die. We still need to be bolder, and to be more disciplined. Italy’s biggest mistakes were the public ignoring public health suggestions. Well, about one million Canadians returned to Canada between March 14 and 20, when the information at the Canadian border about self-isolation was far from uniform, and not always clear. Let’s hope they paid attention, and their loved ones make sure they stayed home, and knew what to do. Let’s hope they listened.



 https://www.thestar.com/opinion/2020/03/24/the-coronavirus-is-a-truth-detector-and-its-telling-us-a-lot-about-what-we-are.html


----------



## Remius

GR66 said:
			
		

> Well, the list of “essential” services that are exempt from the province wide business closure in Ontario is out:
> 
> https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/the-ontario-governments-list-of-essential-businesses/amp
> 
> I’m wondering who isn’t an essential service?  Clothing and Sporting Goods stores?
> 
> What’s the point if there are so many exemptions?




Plenty.  

Cinemas, Other retail, think winners, homesense, lighting stores, sit down restaurants without take out capabilities, shoe stores, garden centres, electronics stores, game stores, gyms, arts and crafts stores like michaels, coffee shops, bars, thrift stores maybe, etc etc.  

The exceptions are needed to keep the lights on.


----------



## GR66

Remius said:
			
		

> Plenty.
> 
> Cinemas, Other retail, think winners, homesense, lighting stores, sit down restaurants without take out capabilities, shoe stores, garden centres, electronics stores, game stores, gyms, arts and crafts stores like michaels, coffee shops, bars, thrift stores maybe, etc etc.
> 
> The exceptions are needed to keep the lights on.



In our community almost all of those stores had closed on their own already.  In fact, there might be the possibility that some stores that HAD voluntarily closed may see their industry on the list of essential services and decide to re-open.  Marks Work Wearhouse stores had closed until April 2nd.  

Under the exemptions retail stores "that that sell work clothes" are allowed to open.  Will they remain closed when their competitors are allowed to stay open?

Clearly many/most of the industries listed are "essential" to the long-term health of the economy.  But how many of these could realistically be closed for 2 weeks in order to halt/slow the spread of this virus.

We do telecom construction (laying new fiber, etc. to increase internet capacity, etc.).  Definitely there is a need - now especially with so many people staying and working from home - to increase our capacity.  However, to be 100% realistic, will two weeks of construction effort substantially change our situation?  We're "essential"...but are we truly essential for the next 14 days?


----------



## Remius

GR66 said:
			
		

> In our community almost all of those stores had closed on their own already.  In fact, there might be the possibility that some stores that HAD voluntarily closed may see their industry on the list of essential services and decide to re-open.  Marks Work Wearhouse stores had closed until April 2nd.
> 
> Under the exemptions retail stores "that that sell work clothes" are allowed to open.  Will they remain closed when their competitors are allowed to stay open?
> 
> Clearly many/most of the industries listed are "essential" to the long-term health of the economy.  But how many of these could realistically be closed for 2 weeks in order to halt/slow the spread of this virus.
> 
> We do telecom construction (laying new fiber, etc. to increase internet capacity, etc.).  Definitely there is a need - now especially with so many people staying and working from home - to increase our capacity.  However, to be 100% realistic, will two weeks of construction effort substantially change our situation?  We're "essential"...but are we truly essential for the next 14 days?



In your community sure.  But in some not so much.  14 days is not really 14 days.  If we follow china’s example, we are looking at at least 10 weeks.  They finally closed Gatineau park on the Quebec side. People were going in larger numbers.  

Some communities are being responsible but others are just ignoring the guidelines.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. could become next coronavirus epicenter, WHO says*
> 
> In Geneva, WHO spokeswoman Margaret Harris told reporters there had been a “very large acceleration” in infections in the United States.
> 
> Over the previous 24 hours, 85 percent of new cases were in Europe and the United States, and of those, 40 percent were in the United States.
> 
> As of Monday, the virus had infected more than 42,000 people there, killing at least 559.
> 
> Asked whether the United States could become the new epicenter, Harris said: “We are now seeing a very large acceleration in cases in the U.S. So it does have that potential.”
> 
> Some U.S. state and local officials have decried a lack of coordinated federal action, saying that having localities act on their own has put them in competition for supplies.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus/u-s-could-become-next-coronavirus-epicenter-who-says-idUSKBN21B1RJ


----------



## Lumber

Serious question:

How bad would things have to be for the government to start laying off federal employees, specifically the military? 

Is there any legal mechanism that would allow the government to do that? How bad would things have to get for them to do that?

A lot of us are at home currently doing nothing at all, and making good money doing it. How long would they stay-at-home order need to be in effect before someone decides they should just stop paying us? Can they even do that legally? Or would they need to enact some extraordinary power of government/pass a new law?


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> Plenty.
> 
> Cinemas, Other retail, think winners, homesense, lighting stores, sit down restaurants without take out capabilities, shoe stores, garden centres, electronics stores, game stores, gyms, arts and crafts stores like michaels, coffee shops, bars, thrift stores maybe, etc etc.
> 
> The exceptions are needed to keep the lights on.



A lot of these places closed all of their stores across the country on their own almost a week ago.
I'm joking here but I almost want to think this is a huge world exercise to see how people will respond and the world is failing the test.  Why the hell are so many provinces and local governments being reactive instead of proactive?  I don't get it.


----------



## Remius

Lumber said:
			
		

> Serious question:
> 
> How bad would things have to be for the government to start laying off federal employees, specifically the military?
> 
> Is there any legal mechanism that would allow the government to do that? How bad would things have to get for them to do that?
> 
> A lot of us are at home currently doing nothing at all, and making good money doing it. How long would they stay-at-home order need to be in effect before someone decides they should just stop paying us? Can they even do that legally? Or would they need to enact some extraordinary power of government/pass a new law?



Well not to be alarmist but when this is all done an do economy starts to recover I predict that the government will be forced to make cuts like it or not.  It might start with class B cuts, hiring freezes and cutting students and contractors.  It may go deeper after that.  Reserve units and regular force battalions may have to merge etc etc.  

Teachers might be cut after all provincially.  


But who knows. 

One thing is for certain, expect nurses and doctors to get hired for a while.


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> If we follow china’s example, we are looking at at least 10 weeks.  They finally closed Gatineau park on the Quebec side.


I just read that Wuhan, China where this is said to have started will be lifting the lockdown on 8 Apr 2020.  It will be interesting to see if it starts to spread again.  There were reports yesterday that Hong Kong started seeing new cases after easing their lockdown.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lumber said:
			
		

> Serious question:
> 
> How bad would things have to be for the government to start laying off federal employees, specifically the military?
> 
> Is there any legal mechanism that would allow the government to do that? How bad would things have to get for them to do that?
> 
> A lot of us are at home currently doing nothing at all, and making good money doing it. How long would they stay-at-home order need to be in effect before someone decides they should just stop paying us? Can they even do that legally? Or would they need to enact some extraordinary power of government/pass a new law?



Provincial governments are seriously at risk given that - unlike 911 - the US border is closed and revenues are vanishing in a variety of other ways. Post-911 some governments, like BC's, downsized big time.

I'd say that the military is safe, though, given we are the 'last line of defence' should the other jurisdictions need reinforcement. 

Following the crisis, as the government re-evaluates its priorities in light of the huge debts they are running up to keep the whole shaky system afloat? That's anyone's guess....


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I just read that Wuhan, China where this is said to have started will be lifting the lockdown on 8 Apr 2020.  It will be interesting to see if it starts to spread again.  There were reports yesterday that Hong Kong started seeing new cases after easing their lockdown.



I don’t trust anything coming out of China.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Official response on the effect of the crisis on the pipeline industry and how they intend to respond https://www.aboutpipelines.com/en/blog/pipeline-industry-well-equipped-for-covid-19-pandemic-response/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=CEPA+2020+Q1+Blog+Posts&fbclid=IwAR3GiW_iV7k8htlfPewX2tGYQtdXjds_Ryx_Htr8ddTodyiYkRP1eJTNl2I


----------



## Colin Parkinson

and as if you don't have enough to worry about: https://www.zdnet.com/article/state-sponsored-hackers-are-now-using-coronavirus-lures-to-infect-their-targets/?fbclid=IwAR3A5ynvZQyFp-4zSBdys7LH5YHYYvbQzLQcqM2RotpsdgewL2uptKB1IB4


----------



## Colin Parkinson

and how to decontaminate your mask so you can reuse it  https://www.covid19ether.com/blog/c/0/i/43928911/n95-mask-can-be-decontaminated-without-decreasing-filtration-efficiency


----------



## stellarpanther

Here is an article about the cases in Russia.

https://nationalpost.com/news/putin-sports-hazmat-suit-as-moscow-says-virus-outbreak-is-much-worse-than-it-appears?video_autoplay=true


----------



## Brad Sallows

>We do telecom construction 

You are still essential.  Companies contracted to the ILECs and other telcos with infrastructure might be needed to backstop internal employees who do critical upgrades and maintenance.  Meanwhile, you are kept employed.  And everyone who can keep doing their job without having to work in a crowd, should do so.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Spain reports 6,600 new coronavirus cases overnight, over 500 dead*
> 
> The number of new coronavirus cases in Spain jumped on Tuesday to 39,673 from 33,089 cases registered on Monday, the health ministry reported on Tuesday.
> 
> The number of fatalities rose to 2,696 overnight from 2,182, the ministry said.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain-tally-idUSKBN21B1G2


----------



## mariomike

Underway said:
			
		

> There is plenty of case law out there which if the paramedic or boyfriend were to become sick then she would be charged criminal negligence causing bodily harm, or other offences.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6654692/criminal-liability-coronavirus-canada/





> An Illinois man who was “foaming at the mouth” yelled “corona” and deliberately coughed in a Chicago cop’s face when the officer responded to a car accident ...don't worry the judge let him go.
> 
> :sarcasm:
> 
> https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/3/23/21191315/man-charged-coughing-chicago-cops-faces-coronavirus-covid-19



Lest anyone take offence, the sarcasm is from the quote. Not mine. Some in emergency services develop a sense of humour that may not be to everyone's taste.

Incidentally, Pornhub delivered 15,000 N95 to FDNY paramedics...yes, Pornhub.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Hockey legend Hayley Wickenheiser on her Olympic-tweet heard round the world: 'I just couldn't sit in silence anymore'



> ... Hayley Wickenheiser knew she had to speak out, because of what she was seeing in hospitals around Toronto. Wickenheiser, you may recall, is the greatest women’s hockey player ever, a four-time Olympic gold medalist, a living Canadian legend and, lately, an aspiring emergency room physician in the final year of a medical school degree...
> 
> ... Her medical mentors are the real pros, at least for now, and in recent weeks, as a medical rookie on scholastic rotation through the big hospitals, Wickenheiser could see the growing look of unease on doctors’ and nurses’ faces amid the mounting COVID-19 crisis.
> 
> “I was watching the stress and anxiety on the doctors and nurses I was working with, watching as these patients would come in, and seeing them worry over how to treat them,” Wickenheiser says.
> 
> At the same time, the former Olympian kept hearing stories, for example, of a 37-year-old, otherwise healthy airline pilot, being intubated after testing positive for the virus, or of the Italian Olympian, whose family member had died a lonely death, without them being able to care for them...




More at link:
 https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/hockey-legend-hayley-wickenheiser-on-her-olympic-tweet-heard-round-the-world-i-just-couldnt-sit-in-silence-anymore


----------



## Retired AF Guy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I just read that Wuhan, China where this is said to have started will be lifting the lockdown on 8 Apr 2020.  It will be interesting to see if it starts to spread again.  There were reports yesterday that Hong Kong started seeing new cases after easing their lockdown.



This uptick is probably from Chinese citizens returning back from overseas.


----------



## Spencer100

Colin P said:
			
		

> and as if you don't have enough to worry about: https://www.zdnet.com/article/state-sponsored-hackers-are-now-using-coronavirus-lures-to-infect-their-targets/?fbclid=IwAR3A5ynvZQyFp-4zSBdys7LH5YHYYvbQzLQcqM2RotpsdgewL2uptKB1IB4



Got a ton of those yesterday.  They attacked my company.

I think IT got them in time.


----------



## ModlrMike

FJAG said:
			
		

> Italy has a large Chinese population and I expect, that considering the time of year (Chinese New Year), there was a fair bit of travel back to China and then back again.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Italy
> 
> :cheers:



That, and the 60000 people who broke out of the quarantine zone.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Out there on the interwebs -- here's how one Indigenous community in NW Ontario (almost 400 on reserve located along the north shore of Lake Superior) is doing a "Community closure, curfew and lockdown" regime (source).


----------



## stellarpanther

Lumber said:
			
		

> Serious question:
> 
> How bad would things have to be for the government to start laying off federal employees, specifically the military?
> 
> Is there any legal mechanism that would allow the government to do that? How bad would things have to get for them to do that?
> 
> A lot of us are at home currently doing nothing at all, and making good money doing it. How long would they stay-at-home order need to be in effect before someone decides they should just stop paying us? Can they even do that legally? Or would they need to enact some extraordinary power of government/pass a new law?


How did Force reduction work?  All I know about it is that it didn't work out the way it was planned and a lot of the wrong people ended up retiring early from what Ive heard.  I personally think the CAF is undermanned as it is.  HRA's and FSA's come to mind but no doubt there are many other trades in a similar situation.  If they stated cutting positions they might as well just stop having a military, IMO.  I also think it would create a HUGE panic in the civilian sector if they saw the government doing this.  I will admit, this topic has popped into my head a few times but I just can't see it happening.
*If anyone here has access to the CDS, maybe a reassuring email from him would be helpful because if it's being asked on here, no doubt others are thinking about it as well.*


----------



## Altair

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> How did Force reduction work?  All I know about it is that it didn't work out the way it was planned and a lot of the wrong people ended up retiring early from what've heard.  I personally think the CAF is undermanned as it is.  HRA's and FSA's come to mind but no doubt there are many other trades in a similar situation.  If they stated cutting positions they might as well just stop having a military, IMO.  I also think it would create a HUGE panic in the civilian sector if they saw the government doing this.  I will admit, this topic has popped into my head a few times but I just can't see it happening.
> *If anyone here has access to the CDS, maybe a reassuring email from him would be helpful because if it's being asked on here, no doubt others are thinking about it as well.*


I think they would want to keep us around in case things get really bad. 

Examples,  riots,  looting


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Folks,

Going forward, this thread will be for the typical Covid coverage such as stats, memes, personal accounts, general articles and the like.

If you wish to discuss any political aspects associated with the pandemic, please post in the new thread.



> CDN/US Covid/related political discussion
> 
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115.0.html



As always, the usual acceptable conduct policies for posting of political content will apply.

Staff


----------



## stellarpanther

APS under consideration and students being sent home.  How would a recruit course be finished online or MSE course for example be done online?  There was an article on either CBC or CTV this morning criticizing the schools being opened.  




Staff edit: link removed due to journalist


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Tweet from the CDS;  some CAF schools will cease trg.

CDS statement also attached as a pic.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> How would a recruit course be finished online or MSE course for example be done online?



They wouldn't be, don't be ridiculous. There's clearly courses that cannot be completed on DNDLearn, but most if not all of the ACISS DP4A for example can be done via DL.


----------



## mariomike

I'm not an economist. But, this caught my eye,



> The good news: The Dow went up by 11.37% today, which is the fifth biggest percentage gain in its entire history.
> 
> The bad news: The top four gains all came during the Dow plunge of 1929-1932 that carried us into the Depression, while the next two came during the 2008 meltdown.
> https://twitter.com/KevinMKruse/status/1242543848645177346



Posted by Kevin M. Kruse,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_M._Kruse


----------



## ballz

CBH99 said:
			
		

> What I'm curious about is...why is the virus so deadly in Italy and China, compared to other countries?  Is it a more aggressive strain within the strain somehow?  Is it that initial transmission was more aggressive due to large populations in smaller geographies?  Why is Italy being so hard hit compared to other countries in the region?    :dunno:



I'm not sure Italy is being hit that much harder, or at least once it's ran its course they may not have been.. Switzerland is right next door and is also getting smashed they just aren't getting as much media attention. Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Austria have the highest amount of cases per million citizens. While France isn't on that list, Monaco which is in southern France and sits between Spain and northern Italy, has similar numbers to Spain. So that's all largely one geographic area. Then Germany, France, Belgium, and Netherlands aren't far behind.... 

Italy seems to have been the first to get out of control in Europe, which puts them at a disadvantage as it is... would Canada be taking this as seriously as it is now if it wasn't for Italy? Demographics certainly matter though, have a read of this... https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/24/health/coronavirus-gender-mortality-intl/index.html


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Some good tidbits here for those who may own a business, or know someone who does. Hopefully no (or very few) scenarios last as long as some of the time provisions stipulate. 

 Thousands of businesses may be breaking the law when they lay off employees, expert says



> Thousands of small businesses in Ontario may be inadvertently breaking the law when they lay off their employees due to COVID-19 slowdowns or closures, according to an employment expert.
> 
> Toronto employment lawyer Stuart Rudner told the Star that many businesses don’t have the right to lay their employees off, and he thinks there may be a wave of wrongful dismissal lawsuits in the coming weeks or months.
> 
> “People don’t realize what they’re doing at this point,” he said.
> 
> Most provinces, including Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia and Quebec, have laws that allow temporary layoffs, meaning businesses can lay off their employees without paying them severance, but only for a certain period of time — and only if there’s a layoff clause in their employment contract.
> 
> The time limit varies by province: In Ontario, it’s 13 weeks, or in some cases up to 35 if the employer continues to pay their employees’ benefits, Rudner said. If the employee still can’t return to work after that time has passed, they have been effectively terminated and are owed severance pay.
> 
> “A lot of people are doing (temporary layoffs),” he said. “They’re just saying, ‘Well, go home. We can’t pay you, but we’ll bring you back as soon as we can.”
> 
> Unionized companies usually have such provisions written into employment contracts as a matter of course, and large corporations are more likely to have them than smaller companies, Rudner said. In certain industries, such as construction, these types of layoffs are common.
> 
> But Rudner said that a lot of smaller employers will not have layoff provisions in employment contracts and in those situations, even a short “temporary layoff” would be legally interpreted as a termination, meaning that severance must be paid.
> 
> If it isn’t, an employee could sue for breach of contract or wrongful dismissal, he said.
> 
> Rudner said many of his firm’s clients are facing this dilemma right now. “I feel like we’re talking about this 23 hours a day.”
> 
> There is a way out for employers, but it means relying on the goodwill of their employees.
> 
> “What a lot of them are doing is they’re going to the employees and having a very candid conversation, and saying … ‘If you’re willing to accept a temporary layoff, then we’ll do whatever we can to help you.’ ”
> 
> In such cases, the employer should ask the employee to sign a document indicating their agreement to being laid off temporarily, Rudner said. If the agreement is in their contract or a separate document that is signed before the layoff, the employer is in the clear.
> 
> For employees going through temporary layoffs, Rudner said you should always check your contract after being laid off to see if it provides for the situation. If it doesn’t, the employee has the right to deny the layoff, or to escalate the situation to the courts, he said.
> 
> After 13 weeks have passed in Ontario (or the period allowed in other provinces), Rudner suspects there will be more lawsuits from employees who were temporarily laid off and whose former employers cannot afford to pay them severance.
> 
> Rudner said thousands of businesses across Canada are “stuck between a rock and a hard place,” which is why it’s important for owners to work through all scenarios now, and to properly understand what their legal obligations are.
> 
> “A lot of our clients are … really struggling. They just don’t know what they’re supposed to do.”



 https://www.thestar.com/business/2020/03/24/thousands-of-businesses-may-be-breaking-the-law-when-they-lay-off-employees-expert-says.html


----------



## mariomike

Meanwhile, the military built a makeshift morgue in Manhattan to deal with a potential surge of coronavirus victims. The site previously housed a temporary morgue for victims of the 9/11 terror attacks.

https://nypost.com/2020/03/24/makeshift-morgue-for-coronavirus-victims-set-up-outside-nyc-hospital/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *COVID-19 traces found in cruise ship 17 days after passengers disembarked: study*
> 
> A cruise ship that saw scores of Canadians quarantined off the coast of Japan still had traces of COVID-19 some 17 days after passengers disembarked, according to a new study from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-traces-found-in-cruise-ship-17-days-after-passengers-disembarked-study-1.4866320


----------



## Blackadder1916

https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/covid-19-woman-in-custody-in-corner-brook-after-allegedly-failing-to-self-isolate-following-international-travel-429067/

COVID-19: Woman in custody in Corner Brook after allegedly failing to self-isolate following international travel


> There are no indications she has the virus, police say
> 
> A woman has been arrested in Corner Brook and charged with failing to abide by the province%u2019s self-isolation rules for travellers.
> 
> The RNC has confirmed that officers arrested a 53-year-woman Tuesday afternoon and she is being held in custody to appear in provincial court via video Wednesday morning.
> 
> There are no indications the woman has the coronavirus, police said.
> 
> Sources told The Telegram that the woman, who is not believed to be from this province, travelled on the ferry from North Sydney, N.S., to Port-aux-Basques and took a bus to the Corner Brook hotel where she was staying.
> 
> Police received information that the woman was not self-isolating, and reportedly located her in a parking lot Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> Witnesses told The Telegram the woman was wearing a medical face mask at the time police arrested her.
> 
> The woman is believed to be the first person arrested under emergency health measures invoked by the provincial government last week through its Public Health Protection and Promotion Act. The special measures, invoked as a response to the COVID-19 pandemic, allow for the enforcement of compliance with recommendations from the province%u2019s chief medical officer.
> 
> Anyone coming to Newfoundland and Labrador from anywhere outside the province is ordered to self-isolate for a minimum of 14 days, whether they are sick or not, in an effort to reduce the spread of the coronavirus.
> 
> Any person who violates these orders is subject to a fine of $500-$2,500, a prison sentence of less than six months or a combination of the two. Businesses face fines between $5,000 and $50,000.
> 
> %u201CThese are among the most severe of any public-health legislation in Canada,%u201D Health and Community Services Minister John Haggie said last week, explaining the emergency measures were implemented after health officials learned of events such as bingo and house parties that were still happening.
> 
> We are dedicated to working with the community to ensure we%u2019re all acting together to prevent the spread of this virus,%u201D RNC communications officer Const. James Cadigan told The Telegram Tuesday evening. %u201CIt%u2019s imperative that we all work with the health officials and the province%u2019s chief medical officer and that people follow the rules the province has put in place.
> 
> %u201CIf you%u2019re going to show disregard for those rules, we are going to enforce them.%u201D
> 
> Cadigan said the RNC has received many calls related to the coronavirus, and he%u2018s urging people to make their reports to public-health officials by calling 811 instead of calling police directly.
> 
> The information provided via the phone line is forwarded to a team of police officers tasked with reviewing it and determining the most appropriate course of action when it comes to enforcement, Cadigan explained.
> 
> %u201CI%u2019d point out that we don%u2019t have the means to test people for the virus,%u201D he said. %u201CWe really need people to report their concerns to health professionals through the 811 line.%u201D




So, there is a limit to Newfoundland hospitality.


_Edited to add

The Telegram, which normally operates on a subscription model, has instituted the following policy.
"We're providing all local COVID-19 related stories to you for free so you have access to important information." _


----------



## tomahawk6

A sailor at sea has tested positive. They think he was infected when the ship called in Vietnam.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/1st-navy-sailors-test-positive-for-new-coronavirus-aboard-a-ship-at-sea/ar-BB11EUSd?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## daftandbarmy

COVID-19: Those least equipped to endure economic downturn bearing the brunt of layoffs

As the COVID-19 outbreak continues its vise-grip on the health, day to day lives, and economic fortunes of Canadians, the latest public opinion survey from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute finds those hardest hit by recent layoffs and mass shutdowns are also those least likely to be able to absorb the financial losses their new circumstances may bring.

Already, 44 per cent of Canadians say that they or someone in their household has lost hours due to the economic downturn. Among this group, the majority say their employers are not covering any of their now disappeared wages.

http://angusreid.org/covid-19-economic-impact-canada/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Prince Charles tests positive for new coronavirus*
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/prince-charles-tests-positive-for-new-coronavirus-1.4867279





> *A group of young adults held a coronavirus party to defy orders to socially distance, now one of them has coronavirus*
> 
> The partygoers intentionally got together "thinking they were invincible" and purposely defying state guidance to practice social distancing
> 
> And the virus seems to be affecting young people in the United States more than it has in China. A report released last week by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention showed that up to 20 per cent of people hospitalized with coronavirus in the United States are between the ages of 20 and 44.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/a-group-of-young-adults-held-a-coronavirus-party-to-defy-orders-to-socially-distance-now-one-of-them-has-coronavirus-1.4867366





> As of midnight, all travellers returning home to Canada must go into mandatory self-isolation for 14 days according to new measures being enacted under the Quarantine Act.
> 
> Travellers who disobey the mandated quarantines may be subject to fines or even arrest, according to the federal government.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/travellers-returning-home-must-enter-mandatory-self-isolation-health-minister-1.4867749


----------



## kkwd

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> As of midnight, all travellers returning home to Canada must go into mandatory self-isolation for 14 days according to new measures being enacted under the Quarantine Act.
> 
> Travellers who disobey the mandated quarantines may be subject to fines or even arrest, according to the federal government.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/travellers-returning-home-must-enter-mandatory-self-isolation-health-minister-1.4867749



As for your last point there has already been an arrest.
https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/covid-19-woman-in-custody-in-corner-brook-after-allegedly-failing-to-self-isolate-following-international-travel-429067/


----------



## stellarpanther

I don't think it's been mentioned here yet but the CDS yesterday cancelled all Force Tests with certain exceptions until further notice.  (hopefully I didn't miss one exceptions)
1. Deployment
2 CFLRS and Trg course where it's required 
3. Substantive promotions.
No measurement and no discussion afterwards.
It was emphasized those are the only reasons.


----------



## brihard

kkwd said:
			
		

> As for your last point there has already been an arrest.
> https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/covid-19-woman-in-custody-in-corner-brook-after-allegedly-failing-to-self-isolate-following-international-travel-429067/



That’s under a provincial emergency order. Tonight the federal Quarantine Act gets invoked, which can be applied broadly, applied equally across Canada, and enforced by quarantine/screening officers assisted by police.


----------



## OceanBonfire

kkwd said:
			
		

> As for your last point there has already been an arrest.
> https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/covid-19-woman-in-custody-in-corner-brook-after-allegedly-failing-to-self-isolate-following-international-travel-429067/



As *Brihard* said, it's still under provincial orders:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/n-l-announces-strict-measures-including-jail-time-to-halt-the-spread-of-covid-19-1.4858499

National (federal) measure will come into effect at midnight.


----------



## PMedMoe

We were told to self isolate when we crossed the border a week ago.  I guess the addition of the word "mandatory" makes it more "official".  Yes, I know it's a federal messure now.  Because some people just don't think rules apply to them.   :

Wait til everyone is done with isolation/ quarantine for the second wave.  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/as-china-virus-cases-near-zero-experts-warn-of-second-wave

Edit to add:  I think the mandatory isolation should be for _all_ people who travelled, even within Canada, particularly those whose mode of transport was plane, bus or train.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Spain's coronavirus death toll overtakes China's*
> 
> With 3,434 fatalities, Spain now has the second highest number of deaths globally after Italy’s 6,820. Nursing homes across the country have been overwhelmed by cases and a skating rink in Madrid has been turned into a makeshift morgue.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-spain/spains-coronavirus-death-toll-overtakes-chinas-idUSKBN21C21Z





> *Europe failing to communicate its response to coronavirus crisis, France says*
> 
> Europe has failed to win the communications battle in its response to the coronavirus outbreak, leaving other powers such as China or Russia to win hearts and minds in the most affected countries like Italy, a French official said on Wednesday.
> 
> Italy, now the country worst-hit by the virus worldwide, was sharply critical of France and Germany after they initially declined to provide face masks and other equipment to help handle the outbreak.
> 
> Rome turned instead for help to China, which sent an airplane full of masks and ventilators bearing “Forza Italia” stickers with small Chinese and Italian flags - and leaving a powerful impression on Italians.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-france/europe-failing-to-communicate-its-response-to-coronavirus-crisis-france-says-idUSKBN21C3DT


----------



## mariomike

If you call 9-1-1 these days,   



> Temporary change to Tiered Response
> https://twitter.com/Send_Paramedics/status/1242806282035376128
> 
> "Strong for You" memo



Same happened during SARS.

In Manitoba,



> WINNIPEG -- Winnipeg’s firefighter’s union said it’s time to isolate emergency services from one another because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/winnipeg-firefighter-union-calls-for-separation-of-emergency-services-1.4866412


----------



## Jarnhamar

_Nearly 30% of US coronavirus cases have been among people 20-44 years old, the CDC says — showing that young people are getting sick, too
Additionally, that age group accounted for 20% of hospitalizations and 12% of ICU admissions among US cases, the CDC found._

https://www.businessinsider.com/30-percent-us-coronavirus-cases-people-between-ages-20-44-2020-3


_
British 21-year-old with no pre-existing conditions dies from coronavirus -Sun_

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-britain-victim/british-21-year-old-with-no-pre-existing-conditions-dies-from-coronavirus-sun-idUSL9N2BB009


----------



## NavyShooter

Went for a 5K walk with the family today - nice to get outside.  

That said, as I watched cars zip by...and zip by...and zip by....I saw 3 work trucks that were possibly essential, and one delivery truck...most of the other vehicles were...single male individuals driving somewhere for some reason.  There was a lot of traffic...I was surprised.  In a quick survey, less than 20% were female.  I wonder if that's why there's a higher rate of infection in males being found as a trend?

NS


----------



## Brad Sallows

Fathers not working are running the errands while the mothers look after the kids not at school?


----------



## Journeyman

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> There was a lot of traffic...I was surprised.  In a quick survey, less than 20% were female.  I wonder if that's why there's a higher rate of infection in males being found as a trend?


Not to come across as a feminist... but is it possible that there's an IQ factor?
Science & common sense vs testosterone & I'm invincible?


----------



## BDTyre

Most of my co-workers are working remotely, but we still need a few people in the office to handle physical admin tasks such as processing credit cards, answering the phone and sending hard copies of documents off, as well as receiving and shipping goods. I was one of the chosen three.


----------



## cavalryman

As a former smoker in his late fifties I'm at higher risk than my wife but I'm the one doing resupply runs because food and drink has been my responsibility for almost all of our marriage.  See, I'm the cook and I'm particular about the food I buy.  But I do take precautions.


----------



## daftandbarmy

London woman dies of suspected Covid-19 after being told she was 'not priority'

Kayla Williams, 36, from Peckham, south London, died a day after calling 999 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/london-woman-36-dies-of-suspected-covid-19-after-being-told-she-is-not-priority


----------



## OceanBonfire

Another one in their 30s:



> *36-year-old New York City principal dies of coronavirus complications*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-principal-dezann-romain-among-nycs-125-deaths-brooklyn/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Went for a 5K walk with the family today - nice to get outside.
> 
> That said, as I watched cars zip by...and zip by...and zip by....I saw 3 work trucks that were possibly essential, and one delivery truck...most of the other vehicles were...single male individuals driving somewhere for some reason.  There was a lot of traffic...I was surprised.  In a quick survey, less than 20% were female.  I wonder if that's why there's a higher rate of infection in males being found as a trend?
> 
> NS



[quote author=Journeyman]
Not to come across as a feminist... but is it possible that there's an IQ factor?
Science & common sense vs testosterone & I'm invincible?   [/quote]

I’m fortunate to be able to get out at varying times almost every day. There’s a large, popular area nearby for hiking, low level rock/boulder-climbing, a very open park area with picnic tables, and long paved paths for walking/jogging. For the most part, the majority of those I’ve seen (from a very good distance) not practicing social-distancing there have been males, probably between the ages of 17-25/30ish. Of course, I’ve seen females being blasé too; but percentage-wise, yes, I’d have to say that it’s been males not adhering. 

 'Go home and stay home.' But also exercise. How do we do that?



> Clearing up some confusion about what kind of exercise is allowed under social distancing
> 
> Stephanie Hogan · CBC News · Posted: Mar 25, 2020 4:00 AM ET
> 
> ...The government of Canada website about coronavirus says, as long as you stay two metres from others, you can "go outside for some fresh air, a run, a bike ride, or to walk the dog."...
> 
> ... First, just an important note: this story applies to people who are symptom-free, have not recently travelled internationally, and have not been in contact with someone who has been diagnosed with COVID-19...



More at link
 https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavirus-exercise-covid-19-guidelines-1.5509056


----------



## tomahawk6

The medical folks are suggesting a 10' separation to be sure that you avoid the effects of caughs and the odd sneeze.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Health minister encourages kindness, fresh air to manage COVID-19 stress



> OTTAWA — Patty Hajdu said she is worried about the toll that pandemic-related anxiety and isolation will take on the mental health of Canadians and is encouraging people to help themselves and others through the crisis with kindness and the great outdoors.
> 
> The federal health minister told the Senate Wednesday she was about to brief cabinet on some idea of how long Canadians might have to stay isolated from each other, knowing full well the longer this lasts, the more hits mental wellness is going to take.
> 
> “Some of our most hopeful scenarios, they are not necessarily what Canadians would like to hear,” she said. “This is not a matter of a couple of weeks. We’re talking about a couple of months...”
> 
> ...The best advice from a health perspective is to get outside to get fresh air if you are not ill,” she said.
> 
> If you are sick, or have been in close proximity to someone who is, stay inside, she said. But everyone else can and should go for a walk as long as they maintain a two-metre distance from anyone they aren’t already living with...



More at link:
 https://www.reddeeradvocate.com/news/health-minister-encourages-kindness-fresh-air-to-manage-covid-19-stress/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The medical folks are suggesting a 10' separation to be sure that you avoid the effects of caughs and the odd sneeze.



Currently, Canada’s medical professional’s recommendations is 2 metres (6’), with no contact if healthy; stay indoors if ill/exhibiting any sort of symptoms. But, for sure, it doesn’t hurt to remain further apart, and I’ve observed people doing that also.


----------



## FSTO

When I go outside here in Ottawa (I live near the Experimental Farm) everyone I've met has been observing the 1 fathom rule (or more). I was chatting with a friend and we commented that the highest insult used to be going to the other side of the street when meeting someone on the sidewalk. Now its the highest form of respect. 

Strange times indeed!


----------



## ModlrMike

Of course Mythbusters tested this:




> A sneeze can leave a person’s nose/mouth at 100 mph (160 km/h).
> 
> busted
> 
> Adam and Jamie used snuff to irritate their mucous membranes and force themselves to sneeze. Droplets from Adam’s and Jamie’s sneezes traveled at 35 mph (56 km/h) and 39 mph (63 km/h), respectively.





> Droplets from a sneeze can travel up to a distance of 30 ft (9.1 m).
> 
> busted
> 
> To get a visual indication of distance, Adam mixed cherry drink powder into the snuff and sneezed over a 30-foot-long strip of white paper. When this method failed to show any marks, he and Jamie tried drinking a small amount of food coloring just before sneezing. This idea worked, giving a maximum distance of 17 ft (5.2 m) for Adam and 13 ft (4.0 m) for Jamie.





> Nasal secretions from a person with a cold can spread so far and so quickly that anyone in the vicinity can become contaminated.
> 
> confirmed
> 
> Adam and Jamie consulted with an otolaryngologist and learned that a person with a cold may secrete up to 60 milliliters of mucus per hour. Jamie built a rig from a syringe and tubing to match that drip rate with fluorescent dye, and Adam wore it by his nose as he did model-building work. After one hour, he and everything he had touched were stained with the dye.
> 
> They then set up a party for Adam to host, with three “germaphobe” guests (Kari, Grant, and Tory, who were briefed to try to avoid contact with Adam) and three unsuspecting ones. Thirty minutes later, Adam, the whole table, and every guest except Kari – who admitted that she actually was a germaphobe – were heavily contaminated. In a second experiment in which Adam consciously did his best to avoid physical contact, all six guests came up clean.
> 
> Adam and Jamie declared the myth confirmed at this point, commenting that a healthy person would find it very difficult to avoid being contaminated by a sick one who did not attempt to keep from spreading his/her germs.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Domestic terror suspect allegedly plotted to use car bomb on hospital during coronavirus outbreak*
> 
> Timothy Wilson, 36, was "actively planning to commit an act of domestic terrorism -- a bombing -- and over the course of several months had considered several targets," according to the FBI. He had recently decided to target a hospital as news surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic picked up, sources familiar worth the investigation told ABC News.
> 
> Wilson was killed Tuesday when he allegedly showed up armed to pick up an inert explosive device supplied by authorities. He was injured and taken to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead.
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/domestic-terrorist-allegedly-plotted-car-bomb-hospital-coronavirus/story?id=69803480
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-says-man-killed-missouri-wanted-bomb-hospital-amid-coronavirus-n1169166


----------



## Journeyman

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The medical folks are suggesting….


Now imagine if people would actually listen to and adhere to the advice of medical experts, as opposed to other sources of... info.  :waiting:

But if I was into fortune-telling...

 I'd forecast that a significant percentage of the population will ignore mere facts, and contract the virus.

They will in turn, infect a greater percentage of the population -- the ones who believe in facts and science, and do their best to avoid contamination by the others.

Eventually, society will be decimated (in the literal, historical sense of the word), in waves, as the numbers periodically decrease and the "mission accomplished" banners appear prematurely, because it's _the virus_  that determines the timeline
                             ….and we're often at the mercy of those who *just... don't... get it*.  :brickwall:


Note: "Negative Nelly" attitude is due to being pretty much cooped up for about a week so far, with little more than food, alcohol, and a loving family to sustain me.  It's not easy.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Putting the F in WTF



> TOUGH LOVE Spanish cops ‘forced to break up ORGY during coronavirus lockdown’


https://www.the-sun.com/news/591807/spanish-cops-forced-to-break-up-orgy-during-coronavirus-lockdown/


----------



## ModlrMike

Everything nicely explained in 17 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPMMNvYTEyI


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Putting the F in WTF
> https://www.the-sun.com/news/591807/spanish-cops-forced-to-break-up-orgy-during-coronavirus-lockdown/



I hate it when that happens.


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> I hate it when that happens.



If it was Star Trek themed, it would have been a Borgy.


----------



## cavalryman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If it was Star Trek themed, it would have been a Borgy.



 :waiting:

Let me guess, you'll be here all week and I should try the veal?

 ;D


----------



## dapaterson

cavalryman said:
			
		

> :waiting:
> 
> Let me guess, you'll be here all week and I should try the veal?
> 
> ;D



If it was on that remote planet, Ahch-To, where Luke Skywalker was hiding, it would be a Porgy.


----------



## garb811

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If it was on that remote planet, Ahch-To, where Luke Skywalker was hiding, it would be a Porgy.


I don't have the enorgy to deal with these bad puns...


----------



## dapaterson

Ontario restaurants can now sell alcohol with their takeout meals.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/alcohol-can-now-be-ordered-with-food-takeout-and-delivery-across-ontario-1.4869450?fbclid=IwAR20w7gYrEKxRmqNZOpKxd0L-3S-aJPflL3jHrc2_GCg1eCJlzETPzIJ6Qc

EDIT to add: AGCO press release: https://www.agco.ca/ontario-adopts-temporary-measures-support-bars-restaurants-and-alcohol-retailers-during-covid-19


----------



## MilEME09

Well one take away from this is DLN was never designed or built with the volume of use it is experiencing in mind. Maybe we will see the system and others get upgraded, When I hear the ombudsmen is using DOS, I wonder just how bad other systems are? maybe the DWAN is so slow cause it's all running on pre-windows 95.


----------



## tomahawk6

I am thinking the USN wont be calling in Vietnam for awhile as more sailors have tested positive.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/five-more-sailors-aboard-aircraft-carrier-test-positive-for-coronavirus/ar-BB11I84X?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I can’t recall ever having mixed feelings about low gas prices. (I don’t remember, now, what they were during 9/11, but I’m pretty sure it never dipped this far down in southern Ontario.)


----------



## cavalryman

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I can’t recall ever having mixed feelings about low gas prices. (I don’t remember, now, what they were during 9/11, but I’m pretty sure it never dipped this far down in southern Ontario.)



63.9 at the gas stations on the east side of Ottawa yesterday.  I can finally fill up the truck for half price but can't go anywhere in it.


----------



## Cloud Cover

I remember when that was expensive not more than a few years before 9/11


----------



## BeyondTheNow

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Well one take away from this is DLN was never designed or built with the volume of use it is experiencing in mind. Maybe we will see the system and others get upgraded, When I hear the ombudsmen is using DOS, I wonder just how bad other systems are? maybe the DWAN is so slow cause it's all running on pre-windows 95.



Agreed. It’s been brutally slow (although probably made worse on an already old and dying laptop that I usually try to avoid using at all costs if I can get by on a mobile device.)

We’re not alone though. My civvie-side course site has been experiencing crashes/interruptions in service since it moved all classes to strictly online where possible. Other students from varying universities/colleges are apparently experiencing the same.


----------



## BDTyre

cavalryman said:
			
		

> 63.9 at the gas stations on the east side of Ottawa yesterday.  I can finally fill up the truck for half price but can't go anywhere in it.



Friends in Edmonton were seeing 59.9 yesterday. As they said, "Five bucks is gas money once again!"


----------



## my72jeep

My area of Northern Ontario is $.99/L


----------



## Weinie

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Friends in Edmonton were seeing 59.9 yesterday. As they said, "Five bucks is gas money once again!"



58.9 per litre at a local Ultramar here in Ottawa as of 11 minutes ago.


----------



## Weinie

my72jeep said:
			
		

> My area of Northern Ontario is $.99/L



That is just WRONG!


----------



## kkwd

Handling things in Italy. 



> Perhaps in one of the more colorful public offerings, Massimiliano Presciutti, mayor of Gualdo Tadino, Perugia, blasted citizens in a profane video. In Gualdo Tadino, citizens have reportedly been using their dogs as excuses to leave the house on an incessant basis.
> 
> "Where the f*** are you all going?" he shouted. "You and your dogs ... which must have an inflamed prostate."
> 
> Antonio Tutolo, mayor of Lucera, Foggio, implored the public on a more personal level to stay home.
> 
> "Getting in mobile hairdressers? What the f*** is that for?," Tutolo ranted. "Do you understand that the casket will be closed? Who the f*** is supposed to even see you? With your hair all done in the casket?"



https://www.theblaze.com/news/fed-up-italian-leader-threatens-to-send-flamethrower-armed-police-officers-to-storm-parties-during-lockdown?utm_source=theblaze-breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200326Trending-ItalianFlameThrowers&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Breaking%20News


----------



## Weinie

kkwd said:
			
		

> Handling things in Italy.
> 
> https://www.theblaze.com/news/fed-up-italian-leader-threatens-to-send-flamethrower-armed-police-officers-to-storm-parties-during-lockdown?utm_source=theblaze-breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200326Trending-ItalianFlameThrowers&utm_term=ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%20TheBlaze%20Breaking%20News



We need more mayors like that  :nod:


----------



## stellarpanther

my72jeep said:
			
		

> My area of Northern Ontario is $.99/L


Not sure where you're at but a buddy in North Bay told me last night that it's going for 90 cents there.  That's gouging.


----------



## mariomike

Topped up yesterday for 63.9


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *N.L. woman arrested again for allegedly not self-isolating*
> 
> Police say a woman in Newfoundland has been arrested for a second time for allegedly refusing to stay inside after arriving from outside the province, contravening public health measures put in place to combat COVID-19.
> 
> The 53-year-old was arrested in the Curling area of Corner Brook, N.L., Thursday morning -- one day after she was released from custody for contravening special orders under Newfoundland and Labrador's Public Health Protection and Promotion Act.
> 
> She is currently back in custody awaiting a court appearance.
> 
> 
> https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-l-woman-arrested-again-for-allegedly-not-self-isolating-1.4869578





> *U.S. becomes nation with highest number of COVID-19 cases*
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/u-s-becomes-nation-with-highest-number-of-covid-19-cases-1.4868957


----------



## Weinie

N.L. woman arrested again for allegedly not self-isolating

Police say a woman in Newfoundland has been arrested for a second time for allegedly refusing to stay inside after arriving from outside the province, contravening public health measures put in place to combat COVID-19.

The 53-year-old was arrested in the Curling area of Corner Brook, N.L., Thursday morning -- one day after she was released from custody for contravening special orders under Newfoundland and Labrador's Public Health Protection and Promotion Act.

She is currently back in custody awaiting a court appearance.


https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-l-woman-arrested-again-for-allegedly-not-self-isolating-1.4869578

I generally like Newfoundlanders. partially because of their contrarian approach to life. But this woman should be shot with a ball of her own shit.


----------



## Rifleman62

Gas Buddy West Kelowna, BC is $0.99.9

We always pay more, sometimes more than Vancouver with all their extra taxes.


----------



## brihard

Just paid 59.9. This is wild.


----------



## OceanBonfire

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> A sailor at sea has tested positive. They think he was infected when the ship called in Vietnam.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/1st-navy-sailors-test-positive-for-new-coronavirus-aboard-a-ship-at-sea/ar-BB11EUSd?ocid=spartanntp



It spread:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/23-sailors-us-navy-aircraft-carrier-test-positive/story?id=69818040


----------



## Weinie

Likin it :nod: Not the quote above. gas prices


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just paid 59.9. This is wild.


Likin it :nod:


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just paid 59.9. This is _*wild.*_


Especially if you define "wild" as normal, legitimate, rational, market reality, non-gouging, non-partisan-agenda driven.


----------



## dapaterson

Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...



Yup. We're all in a world of hurt long term.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...


Or maybe we need to look at pipelines and other initiatives, in the current context, as not viable, or develop made in Canada solutions that exclude anybody else.


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> Or maybe we need to look at pipelines and other initiatives, in the current context, as not viable, or develop made in Canada solutions that exclude anybody else,



Hmm... a Prime Minister named Trudeau bringing in a National Energy Policy...


----------



## Kat Stevens

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...



What, all of a sudden oil matters? Harsh lesson about to be learned.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...



And Alberta is in even more trouble:

Alberta's economic decline will be the 'most severe' the province has ever seen: RBC

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/rbc-alberta-economic-forecast-severe-decline-1.5511032


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, with Alberta oil spot price at $6.50 a barrel, the Canadian economy is in trouble...




Like I've said before - and I'm not critical of Trudeau personally for this, as I'd be critical of any politician so incapable of accomplishing what other countries would consider a windfall to be jumped on.


-  Failure to start building a pipeline out west, despite various communities & First Nations supporting it

-  Failure to approve the Teck project, which was world class.  Approved by over 14 local indigenous communities, and would have created more than 7000 jobs

-  Failure to approve/start the LGN line through Ontario & Quebec, again would have created thousands of jobs


These 3 oil & gas projects alone - not to mention several others that aren't as worthy of media attention - would have created THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of jobs.  And he literally pissed the opportunities away.  And that's just in the oil & gas sector...think about all the other projects in forestry, mining, and agriculture that could have/would have been in place by now if he took something called "initiative" and "got things done in a timely manner."


I realize this is a COVID thread.  And I realize I should post this in the political part of this thread, and will for future posts.  But as it pertains to the quoted post -- our economy COULD have been in a more robust & more diverse position to withstand this COVID threat, had we set ourselves up with a bit of a buffer, which we had ample time and opportunity to do.    :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Of course, the crazy people are busy too….

FBI agents kill man allegedly plotting bomb attack on hospital amid coronavirus pandemic 

FBI says Timothy Wilson, 36, had planned for several months to carry out a bombing and decided to target a Kansas City-area hospital

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/26/hospital-bomb-attack-man-killed-fbi-agents-missouri


----------



## OceanBonfire

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Of course, the crazy people are busy too%u2026.
> 
> FBI agents kill man allegedly plotting bomb attack on hospital amid coronavirus pandemic
> 
> FBI says Timothy Wilson, 36, had planned for several months to carry out a bombing and decided to target a Kansas City-area hospital
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/26/hospital-bomb-attack-man-killed-fbi-agents-missouri



I posted about that yesterday.

Also:



> *Extremists are using the coronavirus to radicalize and spread conspiracies online*
> 
> According to a report released by the New Jersey Office of Homeland Security and Preparedness, "Supporters of domestic and international extremist groups have encouraged followers to conduct attacks during the COVID-19 pandemic to incite panic, target minorities and immigrants, and celebrate the deaths of their enemies."
> 
> "Extremists never miss an opportunity to leverage a crisis to amplify their agendas," Segal said. "Whether it's blaming Asians or Jews or others %u2026 that's just part of their fundamental ideology, is to blame others for world problems."
> 
> As the New Jersey report noted, it fits a familiar pattern: "In order to remain relevant, extremists routinely manipulate crises to validate their ideologies and incite potential attackers."
> 
> Segal says the goal of extremist groups is to feed off of the fear, anxiety and uncertainty that people are experiencing due to the crisis.
> 
> "People in desperate times embrace all sorts of ideas maybe they normally wouldn't in order to make themselves feel better," he said. "And that's what extremists are providing: somebody to blame."
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-extremists-conspiracies-covid-19/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Coronavirus Is Widening the Corporate Digital Divide

As workplaces mandate that employees work from home, universities shift fully to online teaching, restaurants transition to online ordering and delivery, and automakers shut down their plants, we’re seeing the most rapid organizational transformation in the history of the modern firm.

Yes, companies have dealt with financial crises like the 2008 Great Recession or the dot-com bust of the early 2000s. And many have endured wars and terrorist attacks, election surprises, and previous health crises. But never before have established and evolved economies faced this kind of shock. And nothing quite compares to the physical-digital divide Covid-19 is revealing and how it affects the nature of work.

The stakes for digital transformation have increased dramatically. Now, digitizing the operating architecture of the firm is not simply a recipe for higher performance, but much more fundamental for worker employment and public health. This is creating a new digital divide that will deepen fractures in our society. The firms that cannot change overnight will be left way behind, exposing their employees to increasing risk of financial and physical distress. This divide is not only across firms, but is also driving fissures within firms. At Amazon, arguably one of the most successful digital firms in the world, warehouse workers are starting to protest.

The divide is sure to spread. While easily virtualized businesses like education and software continue to operate, closures and layoffs are mounting in others. On March 26 the U.S. Labor Department reported that 3.3 Million Americans had filed initial unemployment claims during the week, the highest such number in history. At a fragile moment like this, we must acknowledge that the economy cannot be run by digital firms alone. The COVID-19 crisis is giving us a terrifying, up-close view of how the digital divide will continue to play out. Can business and government work together to save us from that future?

https://hbr.org/2020/03/coronavirus-is-widening-the-corporate-digital-divide?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=dailyalert_activesubs&utm_content=signinnudge&referral=00563&deliveryName=DM74159


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Coronavirus could kill 81,000 in U.S., subside in June - Washington University analysis*
> 
> The number of hospitalized patients is expected to peak nationally by the second week of April, though the peak may come later in some states. Some people could continue to die of the virus as late as July, although deaths should be below epidemic levels of 10 per day by June at the latest, according to the analysis.
> 
> The duration of the virus means there may be a need for social distancing measures for longer than initially expected, although the country may eventually be able relax restrictions if it can more effectively test and quarantine the sick, Murray said.
> 
> The virus is spreading more slowly in California, which could mean that peak cases there will come later in April and social distancing measures will need to be extended in the state for longer, Murray said.
> 
> Louisiana and Georgia are predicted to see high rates of contagion and could see a particularly high burden on their local healthcare systems, he added.
> 
> The analysis assumes close adherence to infection prevention measures imposed by federal, state and local governments.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-forecast/coronavirus-could-kill-81000-in-u-s-subside-in-june-washington-university-analysis-idUSKBN21E00Z


----------



## Infanteer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I can see the logic (as callous as it may be) behind Quirky's argument, and there is a certain utilitarian essence to it.  If we applied only that rubric (deaths) then maybe just isolating the elderly and vulnerable while letting everybody carry on as per normal to let this thing run its course as a seasonal flu does is the way to go.
> 
> However, I think this line of thinking, where we focus only on fatalities, misses the point, which is that this can still be a serious disease even if it doesn't kill you. From what I understand, while some otherwise healthy working age folks catch COVID-19 and are largely asymptomatic or spend a few days in bed, others suffer some harsh complications that requires hospitalization.  I did a quick google and found some CDC numbers:
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e2.htm#T1_down
> 
> Even though the cohort of those aged 20-65 (we'll call this the "working cohort") suffers a low fatality rate, they still compose over 50% of the hospitalization/ICU admissions for severe cases, and that (if I'm reading the data correctly) this cohort still sees 25% of severe cases among all those who catch it.
> 
> I suspect this percentage is probably a bit inflated due to an uncertain denominator (ie: numbers of people who catch COVID-19 but aren't tested and counted), but even if you account for that, this virus still seems serious enough to result in complications resulting in hospitalization for 15-25% of the working cohort.  If this rips through Canada, that's about 3 to 5 million people in the working cohort that may require hospitalization.
> 
> Which brings us back around to the "national isolation period" we are seeing now.  While it may be hard on the economy, how much harder would hundreds of thousands of working cohort Canadians requiring hospitalization at any one time.  Using the r0 for COVID-19, 1 person will spread this to 406 people over 30 days if we carry on as per normal.  If we cut our activities down by half, that goes to 1 person spreading this to 15 people over the same period of time.  In military terms, we are preventing the working cohort (and all Canadians in fact) from becoming a Mass Casualty event on our national health care system.  The short term economic pain is probably worth the long term gain of not having a broken health care system and the risk of breakdown of law and order and social cohesion that comes with a "swamping" effect.



Some more editorials on this discussion.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/william-watson-herd-mentality-versus-herd-immunity-and-the-coronavirus?video_autoplay=true

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-why-the-covid-19-herd-immunity-theory-is-dangerously-flawed?video_autoplay=true


----------



## dapaterson

https://twitter.com/janycemcgregor/status/1243560777698758658

Poloz [Governor of the Bank of Canada] this morning likely had the quote of the day (week? month? year?) on this:
"No one ever accuses firemen of using too much water."


----------



## mariomike

> ...The best advice from a health perspective is to get outside to get fresh air if you are not ill,” she said.
> 
> If you are sick, or have been in close proximity to someone who is, stay inside, she said. But everyone else can and should go for a walk as long as they maintain a two-metre distance from anyone they aren’t already living with...
> https://www.reddeeradvocate.com/news/health-minister-encourages-kindness-fresh-air-to-manage-covid-19-stress/





			
				BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> I’m fortunate to be able to get out at varying times almost every day. There’s a large, popular area nearby for hiking, low level rock/boulder-climbing, a very open park area with picnic tables, and long paved paths for walking/jogging.



Rennie Park is a short walk from home. It's 24 acres, so keeping a two-metre distance is easy.

Our area is extremely hilly in nature with ravines, and a lot of steep hillsides. 

Grenadier Pond, Catfish Pond and the Humber River all are at or near the level of Lake Ontario. Our neighbourhood is about 30 to 40 feet higher in elevation.

So, walking down to the lake is pretty easy, compared to the walk back home.  

I've been tidying up the backyard, and look forward to when the swimming pools re-open.


----------



## Kirkhill

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Some more editorials on this discussion.
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/opinion/william-watson-herd-mentality-versus-herd-immunity-and-the-coronavirus?video_autoplay=true
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-why-the-covid-19-herd-immunity-theory-is-dangerously-flawed?video_autoplay=true



Indeed.  



> Government ministers are unsure what to think. They agreed that the Prime Minister should follow expert advice, but *what if experts disagree? *There might be doubt about the deadliness of Covid, but there’s no doubt about the damage inflicted on the economy by the lockdown: the surging unemployment, the children denied their education, the apprenticeships abandoned, the businesses going bust. It might all be worth it. But how will we know?



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/26/coronavirus-terrifying-killer-manageable-risk-still-dont-know/

Applies to Epidemiologists, Nutritionists, Climate Scientists, Environmentalists, Doctors and Lawyers.

Experts disagree.

Hard to make decisions based purely on science.

A pair of dice and a quarter should always be kept handy.


----------



## Kirkhill

On the economic front, with thoughts of How Big Is A Trillion, Really?, foremost

A look at the M2 money supply in the US over the last 3 decades or so.  The US is contemplating adding another 2200 Billion (2.2 Trillion) to the pot.  In 2008 they added 1000 Billion (or 1 Trillion).

See if you can find the inflection in the curve







Or on this one which looks at the Global Money supply.


----------



## BDTyre

My town has four gas stations on the same street; you can go from the first one to the last one in about two minutes. 

The first one is closed for renos.
Yesterday, #2 was at 100.9, #3 (my normal one) at 98.9 and #4 at 100.9
This morning... #2 was 99.9, #3 and #4 were both at 105.9. 
Everything has gone crazy. My town used to be more expensive than Richmond or Vancouver. But now we're often cheaper than Richmond and on par with Vancouver.


----------



## Kirkhill

> *Two thirds of coronavirus victims may have died this year anyway, government adviser says
> *
> 
> *Professor Neil Ferguson said experts were now expecting around 20,000 deaths, although said it may turn out to be a lot less
> *
> 
> (Edit - This is down from an upper estimate of 500,000 a month or so ago - based on information and circumstances at that time - Iteration 1)
> 
> 
> 
> By
> Sarah Knapton,
> SCIENCE EDITOR
> 25 March 2020 • 4:13pm
> 
> *Up to two thirds of people who die from coronavirus in the next nine months are likely to have died this year from other causes, a government advisor has said.*
> 
> Professor Neil Ferguson, who is recovering at home from Covid-19, told the Science and Technology Committee that experts were now expecting around 20,000 deaths, although said it may turn out to be a lot less.
> 
> But he said that many of those deaths were likely to be old and seriously ill people who would have died from other conditions before the end of the year.
> 
> Appearing via videolink, and drinking from a Keep Calm and Carry On mug, Prof Ferguson said: “We don’t know what the level of excess deaths will be in the epidemic, in that, by the end of the year what proportion of people who died from covid would have died?
> 
> “It might be as much as half or two thirds of the deaths we see, because these are people at the end of their lives or have underlying conditions so these are considerations.
> 
> “Fatalities are probably unlikely to exceed 20,000 with social distancing strategies but it could be substantially lower than that and that’s where real time analysis will be needed.”
> 
> 
> Prof Ferguson, who sits on the government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) said that the decision to lockdown Britain had been taken because the NHS simply could not have coped with the surge in demand, which would have had a huge knock-on effect for other health services, potentially having unintended consequences.
> 
> (Edit - please note the past tense)
> 
> *He said that he expected the virus to peak within 2.5 to three weeks before tailing off* and said that the warmer weather could also see transmision dip by up to 20 per cent.
> 
> The government’s strategy is to keep people apart to flatten the peak so that the health service can cope with the cases until a vaccine or anti-viral is ready, which is unlikely before the end of the year.
> 
> Prof Ferguson said that the new social distancing measures announced by Boris Johnson earlier in the week meant the NHS would now be able to handle the incoming cases of coronavirus.
> 
> “The strategy being done now in some areas ICUs will get close to capacity but it won’t be reached at a national level,” he said.
> 
> “We are reasonably confident that at a national level we will be within capacity.”
> 
> 
> The government has faced widespread criticism for failing to test people in the community and trace the people they have come into contact with, unlike other countries such as South Korea, which managed to contain the virus far more quickly.
> 
> But Prof Ferguson said they were unable to adopt a similar strategy because Public Health England (PHE) had informed the Sage committee in January that there was not the capacity to test that number of people.
> 
> Instead, the current strategy aim is to suppress transmission indefinitely until other counter-measures are put in place, including a vaccine.
> 
> Prof Ferguson said it was clear that widespread testing was needed to help move the country from suppression measures and lockdown into something the country can manage longer-term.
> 
> He suggested that local areas may face lockdown if they have especially high rates of infection.
> 
> "There will be some resurgence of transmission but the hope is that by employing more focused policies to suppress those local outbreaks, we can maintain infection levels at low levels in the country as a whole indefinitely,” he said.
> 
> "It remains to be seen how we achieve this and how practical it proves to be. The long-term exit from this is clearly the hopes around a vaccine.”
> 
> However Sage was criticised for its slow response by the Editor of the medical journal the Lancet, who said experts had failed to appreciate just how serious the situation was in China by January, and the risk to Britain.
> 
> Richard Horton, said the group did not seem to have read important modelling papers that Chinese scientists had produced early in the epidemic.
> 
> There was a mismatch between the urgent warning that was coming from the frontline in China and the pedestrian evaluation of what the likely severity of the outbreak would be,” he told MPs.
> 
> “That suggests to me that we didn’t understand fully what was taking place. I think the perspective was largely on the UK but I haven’t seen an outreach to the scientists in China,
> 
> “China has top scientists who are doing cutting edge work and have responded in the most unbelievably rapid way so if I had been chair of sage I would have wanted to go to those scientists on the frontline to find out what is coming for us in the UK.”



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/25/two-thirds-patients-die-coronavirus-would-have-died-year-anyway/?fbclid=IwAR0YWDayGwyTHNwHiE3F-9-LX-bDdjQG46SMj5pWF2UKdp0OBGEnJ7XPcQg

This all suggests, that as we advance in circles, getting past the shock of the first iteration with its Class 1 estimate, we have already made significant progress on the second iteration which will allow for a considerably tightened estimate by sometime around Easter (April 13 or so).  We can then expect the politicians to adjust while the scientists work on the third iteration.... also known as the first OODA loop in a stable system.

The social distancing has been, and is necessary, to make the OODA loop longer, to lengthen the Observation phase.  But it is not a solution for the virus itself.    That is likely to be a long time coming.  So the question really is:  How bad is this thing and can we learn to live with it in the same way we live with miriads of other viruses?

I think the answer will become clearer to the professionals within the next month or so.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post (note also refs to CAF intelligence):



> “No, COVID-19 is not an ‘intelligence failure’”
> 
> That’s the title of this piece by Phil Gurski (tweets here), formerly an intelligence analyst at CSE and then at CSIS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intelligence agencies propose: governments dispose...
> 
> 
> 
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/03/27/no-covid-19-is-not-an-intelligence-failure/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:
			
		

> https://twitter.com/janycemcgregor/status/1243560777698758658
> 
> Poloz [Governor of the Bank of Canada] this morning likely had the quote of the day (week? month? year?) on this:
> "No one ever accuses firemen of using too much water."



Clearly they never fought a fire on a boat/ship


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> https://twitter.com/janycemcgregor/status/1243560777698758658
> 
> Poloz [Governor of the Bank of Canada] this morning likely had the quote of the day (week? month? year?) on this:
> "No one ever accuses firemen of using too much water."



Clearly he's never talked to a cop who had to work the subsequent crime scene.


----------



## mariomike

Sometimes the damage done by too much water is as great as the damage by fire.


----------



## brihard

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/25/two-thirds-patients-die-coronavirus-would-have-died-year-anyway/?fbclid=IwAR0YWDayGwyTHNwHiE3F-9-LX-bDdjQG46SMj5pWF2UKdp0OBGEnJ7XPcQg
> 
> This all suggests, that as we advance in circles, getting past the shock of the first iteration with its Class 1 estimate, we have already made significant progress on the second iteration which will allow for a considerably tightened estimate by sometime around Easter (April 13 or so).  We can then expect the politicians to adjust while the scientists work on the third iteration.... also known as the first OODA loop in a stable system.
> 
> The social distancing has been, and is necessary, to make the OODA loop longer, to lengthen the Observation phase.  But it is not a solution for the virus itself.    That is likely to be a long time coming.  So the question really is:  How bad is this thing and can we learn to live with it in the same way we live with miriads of other viruses?
> 
> I think the answer will become clearer to the professionals within the next month or so.



Following up on this a bit: Dr. Ferguson recently tweeted out the following to make clear what he has meant with these revised estimates:

"1/4 - I think it would be helpful if I cleared up some confusion that has emerged in recent days. Some have interpreted my evidence to a UK parliamentary committee as indicating we have substantially revised our assessments of the potential mortality impact of COVID-19.

2/4 -This is not the case. Indeed, if anything, our latest estimates suggest that the virus is slightly more transmissible than we previously thought. Our lethality estimates remain unchanged.

3/4 - My evidence to Parliament referred to the deaths we assess might occur in the UK in the presence of the very intensive social distancing and other public health interventions now in place.

4/4 - Without those controls, our assessment remains that the UK would see the scale of deaths reported in our study (namely, up to approximately 500 thousand)."

So what he's saying is not that the orgiinal estimates were fundamentally flawed in any way, but rather that they've now run new models with new variables that take into account their best stab at the mathematical impact of the very serious social distancing and lockdowns in place. Essentially they're modelling the 'lock s*** down' COA fromt he original model, using the latest data. Basically it reinforces 'this sucks but we need to keep it up'.

In any case, otherwise- I 100% agree with what you're saying regarding the emergence of a stable OODA loop at this point. I think that's a fair way to put it.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Why the US can’t go back to work by Easter*
> 
> Scientists skeptical of the coronavirus pandemic are saying, “We need to test more people,” not “Let’s stop the lockdowns.” The problem is , they’re being misinterpreted and even co-opted by policymakers including President Trump.
> 
> 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615418/why-the-us-cant-go-back-to-work-by-easter/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest from the CDS via Twitter ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> My town has four gas stations on the same street; you can go from the first one to the last one in about two minutes.
> 
> The first one is closed for renos.
> Yesterday, #2 was at 100.9, #3 (my normal one) at 98.9 and #4 at 100.9
> This morning... #2 was 99.9, #3 and #4 were both at 105.9.
> Everything has gone crazy. My town used to be more expensive than Richmond or Vancouver. But now we're often cheaper than Richmond and on par with Vancouver.



Just gassed up at Canadian Tire - .63.9 c/L. And because its Friday I can use my CF1 Appreciation card and get .03c/L off. So, .60 c/L. To fill up half a tank on my KIA Rio cost less then $12.00.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Caught this on foreign media:



> Punctuating the fact that no one is immune to the new coronavirus, it pierced even the highest echelons of global power, with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson becoming the first leader of a major country to test positive.



Ouch!!

Link


----------



## daftandbarmy

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Caught this on foreign media:
> 
> Ouch!!
> 
> Link



He must have taken the Tube ...

Now Sadiq Khan orders tubes to be hosed with new 'anti-viral spray' that he claims will 'keep carriages safe for 30 days' - as commuters wait 20 MINUTES to ram into packed carriages AGAIN

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8159039/Tubes-packed-London-Undrground-uses-new-anti-viral-spray.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oops...

Pastor Who Claimed Covid-19 ‘Hysteria’ Was Plot Against Trump Dies From Virus

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2020/03/pastor-who-claimed-covid-19-hysteria-was-plot-against-trump-dies-from-virus/?fbclid=IwAR3pnoW3HdqOzfgqRQdaZb-NdJxOenQjtGEY2flN5wvc25u_9D-GdPJ2h3o


----------



## garb811

Frustration mounts at Army base in Vicenza as coronavirus continues to spread


> ...
> Other viewers questioned why soldiers were still doing physical training together and disputed Vogel’s assertion that the training was being done in six-person increments and with proper social distancing.
> 
> They asked for the definition of “mission essential,” why soldiers were required to report to work, and why, since the barber shop was closed, U.S. Army Europe said it would not relax grooming standards.
> 
> Vogel said that USAREUR’s command sergeant major had decided against a grooming standards change, while Cloutier added that it was important that discipline and standards be maintained. “Work with your chain of command and they’ll get after it,” he said.
> ...


Yep, nothing like maintaining discipline and standards by forcing troops to get a high and tight done by their buddy using whatever they have at hand, when doing that in a normal situation would likely result in disciplinary action...


----------



## CBH99

Goodness gracious...   :facepalm:


----------



## stellarpanther

garb811 said:
			
		

> Frustration mounts at Army base in Vicenza as coronavirus continues to spreadYep, nothing like maintaining discipline and standards by forcing troops to get a high and tight done by their buddy using whatever they have at hand, when doing that in a normal situation would likely result in disciplinary action...


Now I understand what a US Air Force Colonel once told a couple of us while having lunch at CJOC some years ago.  A policy came out for a short time about CJOC mbr's needing to wear 3b's on Mondays and even though it was only supposed to be for WO's and above, the CO decided to make everyone including the JR's       wear them.  It didn't last vey long because from what I was told, the driver for the CJOC Comd found a nice way to encourage him to get the CO to change the order.  The Colonel told we should be happy we're in the CAF because the US military truly does things that will bogle the mind.


----------



## mariomike

See also,

Coronavirus and haircuts  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132099.0.html


----------



## midget-boyd91

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sometimes the damage done by too much water is as great as the damage by fire.



Geeze, use a deck gun for a toaster on fire *once* and you never hear the end of it  

Overkill *is* underrated afterall...


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Now I understand what a US Air Force Colonel once told a couple of us while having lunch at CJOC some years ago.  A policy came out for a short time about CJOC mbr's needing to wear 3b's on Mondays and even though it was only supposed to be for WO's and above, the CO decided to make everyone including the JR's       wear them.  It didn't last vey long because from what I was told, the driver for the CJOC Comd found a nice way to encourage him to get the CO to change the order.  The Colonel told we should be happy we're in the CAF because the US military truly does things that will bogle the mind.


You really want your mind blown? Follow @sgtjanedoe, @SNAFU_Sara, @pptsapper, @LadyLovesTaft, @CSenco, @TomHeartsTanks and some of the other #miltwitter crowd on Twitter...it is amazing, and scary.


----------



## mariomike

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> Geeze, use a deck gun for a toaster on fire *once* and you never hear the end of it
> 
> Overkill *is* underrated afterall...



My reply was to this,

"No one ever accuses firemen of using too much water."
Reply #1241


----------



## tomahawk6

USS TR stuck in port maybe a month for virus testing. Not only testing but it should be decontaminated as well.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-us-aircraft-carrier-could-be-stuck-in-port-for-almost-a-month-for-coronavirus-testing-but-the-navy-is-trying-to-cut-that-time-down/ar-BB11OezS?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## dimsum

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The Colonel told we should be happy we're in the CAF because the US military truly does things that will bogle the mind.



I read the US military reddit threads.  I can totally believe that.


----------



## tomahawk6

We used to joke that there was three ways to do something 1.the army way and 2. the right way. and 3. the wrong way.  ;D


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Clearly he's never talked to a cop who had to work the subsequent crime scene.



You're referring to the "Evidence Eradication Department"?  ;D


----------



## mariomike

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> We used to jokse that there was three ways to do something 1.the army way and 2. the right way. and 3. the wrong way.  ;D



So did we.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Escape from Florida: My 2,400-km drive back to the sanity of Canada 


I am not generally a fearful person. I have travelled to some of the most dangerous places in the world, because I thought it was worth the risk. But I saw no reason to risk getting sick if I might avoid it by sticking to myself. 

I consulted with friends and relatives and reluctantly decided that I had to go home. I didn’t want to stop fixing up the old boat so soon, but I was afraid of getting infected in Florida, where I might run up huge debts if I needed to be hospitalized, and where I would have nobody to look after me. And I was worried about the state of the hospitals.

Florida was slow to react to the virus, and the population is old, so it was easy to imagine it turning into Lombardy, the region of northern Italy where the disease is so widespread that exhausted doctors have been forced to ration ventilators by age.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/weekendreads/escape-from-florida-my-2400-km-drive-back-to-the-sanity-of-canada/ar-BB11E409?ocid=sf2


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:
			
		

> You're referring to the "Evidence Eradication Department"?  ;D



 :nod: Colloquially, the 'Scenewreckers'.

Though that said, I have to give fire credit for handing me what turned out to be my favourite file that I've had lead on to date...


----------



## brihard

From the PM's daily presser right now:

- Anyone with any symptoms whatsoever will not be allowed to board domestic flights or intercity trains.
- Early glimmers of hope coming from BC. _[note- this is just based of modelling, not yet on stats_
- Everyone keep doing your share and in the coming days and weeks to maintain physical distancing.
- Wage subsidy up to 75% to keep people on the payroll, or rehire people they didn't think they could support over the past couple weeks.
- No short term plans to impose federal restriction on interprovincial borders.


----------



## Kirkhill

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html

From the US map (county by county)

Key risk drivers:

International Airport
Urbanization
High Density
Public Transit

At Risk:

Everybody in contact with people that have contacts with those centres. Travel reduction is at least as important as social distancing in slowing the spread to a manageable rate.


----------



## brihard

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html
> 
> From the US map (county by county)
> 
> Key risk drivers:
> 
> International Airport
> Urbanization
> High Density
> Public Transit
> 
> At Risk:
> 
> Everybody in contact with people that have contacts with those centres. Travel reduction is at least as important as social distancing in slowing the spread to a manageable rate.



This was a really fascinating visualization. They took a week's worth of cell phone activity on a Florida beach during March Break, (just devices, no personal info), and then tracked where those devices returned to and showed it as a heat map. It's, uh... It's pretty bad.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2020/03/27/video-shows-cell-phones-on-florida-beach-during-spring-break-and-where-theyve-travelled-during-coronavirus-outbreak


----------



## mariomike

Governor Cuomo is talking about using Bag Valve Masks ( BVMs ) if / when they run out of ventilators. 

I always considered the BVM as a respiratory Band-Aid. But, I guess in a pinch, they may have to do. 


https://twitter.com/NY1/status/1243940782853238784

“What do we do if we don’t have enough ventilators? Then you use bag valve masks,” the governor says, holding up a bag valve mask demonstrating the manual process required to use a bag valve mask, pumping it with his hand repeatedly while speaking.

The song to hum is, Staying Alive.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm super impressed with Canadians doing the menial jobs risking their lives. Gas station workers, convince store workers, garbage collectors, Shoppers drugmart, grocery store workers and more.

There's a lot of money going to people who were laid off or can't find work, I would love to see the above workers get some kind of danger pay for risking their lives keeping things going.


----------



## OceanBonfire

The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) at the University of Washington:



> US Hospitals Could Be Overwhelmed in the Second Week of April by Demand for ICU Beds, and US Deaths Could Total 81,000 by July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/IHME_UW/status/1243167615800885249
> 
> https://twitter.com/IHME_UW/status/1243696671051022336


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm super impressed with Canadians doing the menial jobs risking their lives. Gas station workers, convince store workers, garbage collectors, Shoppers drugmart, grocery store workers and more.


Here here!



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's a lot of money going to people who were laid off or can't find work, I would love to see the above workers get some kind of danger pay for risking their lives keeping things going.


Yup - let's see if the companies that employ them feel the same way.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Seeing lots of stuff on crackbook by urban dwellers who want to move out to the country, or back to their small home towns, when this all clears up. Please don't.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Target Up said:
			
		

> Seeing lots of stuff on crackbook by urban dwellers who want to move out to the country, or back to their small home towns, when this all clears up. Please don't.


More than just a few are self-isolating in their rural places.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Not looking good for the US: Its already surpassed China and all countries with almost 116,000 infections. They just had another 239 deaths reported for a total of 1935. If the number of deaths keep up, the US will have surpassed China within a week, if not sooner. 

Source


----------



## Remius

This site has a good graph on every countries’ curve.  The US curve isn’t looking good.

http://91-divoc.com/pages/covid-visualization/


----------



## NavyShooter

Open source discussions of Chinese death tolls being...misrepresented.

Anecdotal things like Urns...

https://shanghaiist.com/2020/03/27/urns-in-wuhan-far-exceed-death-toll-raising-more-questions-about-chinas-tally/?fbclid=IwAR1RFFsTY5NUJx3CLR_I9w9WFeEEPj6dL5gUpm-bA1VxqGs8cohX1P57g5I


----------



## ModlrMike

We appear to be reassuringly under the 35% daily rate. We just have to not become complacent.


----------



## Remius

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> We appear to be reassuringly under the 35% daily rate. We just have to not become complacent.



Yes.  We may have acted on this early enough or most people are listening.  But yeah, complacency could change all of that.


----------



## PuckChaser

Ontario is cutting down approved gatherings from 50 to 5. Essential businesses and families in the same household over 5 are exempt. Hopefully this will put finishing touches on reducing the spread and "snuff the fire".


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Easy way to calculate the Chinese numbers...multiplying by 100 should be about right.
That saying about trusting a gas stations week old hot dog before I'd trust that Govt?  Apply liberally...


----------



## dimsum

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> That saying about trusting a gas stations week old hot dog before I'd trust that Govt?  Apply liberally...



Pun intended?


----------



## MarkOttawa

A post--read it, the underlying article and weep:



> COVID-19, or, Canadian Government’s Dithering Responses on Travel Bans etc., Part 2
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/03/28/covid-19-or-canadian-governments-dithering-responses-on-travel-bans-etc-part-2/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Pun intended?



No....never be surprised by what my fat fingers can do to a tiny phone keyboard.


----------



## tomahawk6

The President is mobilizing the Ready Reserve for this fight against the virus. The total available is about 112000 I don't know if all are being recalled to duty or maybe 30000. The ready reserve is composed of trained personnel whose active service ended but still had some obligation remaining. Say a soldier or officer served 3 years active time but would still have 3 years reserve time of a 6 year commitment.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/trump-issues-order-to-bring-former-troops-back-to-active-duty-to-assist-in-coronavirus-response-1.624036


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of very thoughtful post by Sir Humphrey at _Thin Pinstriped Line_, lots of relevance for CAF:



> What Does COVID-19 Mean For The Future Of The British Armed Forces?
> 
> The COVID-19 virus continues to dominate the global way of life. This pandemic has changed in a few short weeks how the planet operates and fundamentally altered many long held assumptions about our way of life and values, particularly in the West.
> 
> For the UK the response has been focused around the NHS and the magnificent people who work in it. But equally it has seen pressure and challenge placed on a wide variety of other sectors including the retail industry, the emergency services and a variety of other actors who have all found themselves called to serve in ways previously unimaginable.
> 
> For the British Armed Forces the response has been one of stepping up to provide military assistance to the civil authorities (MACA) – a well tried and tested process which has seen the military deploy assets across the UK to provide support on a range of areas...
> https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2020/03/what-does-covid-19-mean-for-future-of.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## daftandbarmy

Regaining Lost Ground: Defense Support in the Coronavirus Pandemic 

March 20, 2020

As the United States grapples with the coronavirus pandemic, discussion of the military’s potential contributions to a more robust federal response have taken center stage. In the absence of effective federal action, hopes of containing the virus have given way to an increased focus on slowing its transmission through measures like social distancing and belatedly filling critical health care gaps. Given its size and capabilities, it is both appropriate and unsurprising that many have called upon the Department of Defense (DoD) to assist these efforts. Indeed, in recent days, we have seen such calls from New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren.

Although there is no modern analog to the current coronavirus pandemic, there are many examples throughout U.S. history of military assistance during disasters both man-made and natural. In the past 15 years, three stand out for their scale. When Hurricane Katrina struck the Gulf Coast in August 2005, DoD mounted a massive response, involving an estimated 70,000 troops. However, that response was, broadly, uncoordinated, delayed, and insufficient. Learning important lessons from this experience, the Defense Department stepped up its response measures for Hurricane Sandy. While not perfect, when Sandy made landfall in October 2012, the Department was prepared and the response was far more proactive and unified.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/regaining-lost-ground-defense-support-coronavirus-pandemic


----------



## dapaterson

The King of Thailand is self isolating, together with servants and a harem of twenty women.  In Germany, of course.

https://amp.nine.com.au/article/28364bd0-e301-4556-b4d0-08a6d9222443?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## cavalryman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The King of Thailand is self isolating, together with servants and a harem of twenty women.  In Germany, of course.
> 
> https://amp.nine.com.au/article/28364bd0-e301-4556-b4d0-08a6d9222443?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## tomahawk6

The Reserves are Federal and the Guard belongs to the States. Trump has left the Guard to the State Governors to deploy as needed. The States will pay the freight but will probably see this cost reimbursed by the Federal government  at some point.The virus is spreading in Florida. I guess the virus likes warm weather too.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-sees-sharp-spike-in-coronavirus-infections-as-fears-grow-it-could-be-another-hotspot


----------



## dapaterson

The Government of Canada is pulling out the big guns in its messaging to remind people to stay home and self isolate.

https://twitter.com/j_mcelroy/status/1243651753146380289


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... There's a lot of money going to people who were laid off or can't find work, I would love to see the above workers get some kind of danger pay for risking their lives keeping things going.


I gotta give credit where due ...


> Two more retailers are joining other companies that have remained open during the COVID-19 pandemic in paying their employees more during the outbreak.
> 
> "Our ability to provide everyday essentials to millions of Canadians is only made possible through the hard work of the Dollarama team working in our stores, in our warehouses, and in our distribution centre," said Neil Rossy, CEO of Dollarama Inc., in a statement Tuesday.
> 
> "We recognize the challenges they are facing and appreciate the incredible work they are doing to serve Canadians in these truly unprecedented circumstances."
> 
> The discount store announced a 10 per cent pay increase for its store employees, as well as hourly workers at its distribution centre and warehouse.
> 
> Dollarama's announcement came as it was recognized as an essential business in Ontario and Quebec, where the governments have mandated non-essential businesses close in an effort to slow the COVID-19 pandemic. All Dollarama stores with street access will remain open in the two provinces, the company said, as well as its Montreal-based distribution centre.
> 
> Walmart Canada, meanwhile, announced Tuesday a bonus and premium pay program.
> 
> The company's 90,000 store and supply chain employees will receive a $200 March bonus for active full-time workers and half that for part-time ones, the company said in a statement.
> 
> Walmart will also pay each store and supply chain worker who is paid hourly an extra $2 per hour between April 3 and 30, and they will receive an additional 10 per cent discount for two days next month to help them purchase essentials.
> 
> The company said it is "incredibly proud" of its employees who are "rising to the challenge of these unprecedented times."
> 
> In recent days, a number of major companies announced similar measures. Maple Leaf Foods Inc., Cargill Ltd. and Mondelez Canada all say they will pay employees more as they work to ensure the country's food supply remains strong.
> 
> Canada's major grocers, including Loblaw Companies Ltd., Sobeys and Safeway Canada, have taken similar action.


----------



## garb811

Call me jaded but...

How much of this is true altruism and how much is this insurance against a backlash when quarterly earnings are reported and people start to see how much profit these places have made off of the run on goods caused by the hoarders and their early failures to implement quantity control to stop it?


----------



## Weinie

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I gotta give credit where due ...



We (CAF members) on this site should be actively thanking all these folks, who are enabling us to be reasonably content, mostly reassured and able to meet our daily needs. Well done BZ to all the unforgotten folks who are helping us. I have four kids and am especially appreciative of all you do. I will remember your efforts going forward and will be an advocate for you in the future.
A very sincere THANK YOU


----------



## daftandbarmy

garb811 said:
			
		

> Call me jaded but...
> 
> How much of this is true altruism and how much is this insurance against a backlash when quarterly earnings are reported and people start to see how much profit these places have made off of the run on goods caused by the hoarders and their early failures to implement quantity control to stop it?



It's a retail apocalypse. No store, that was wholly self-interested, would keep an open shop front. Many will not survive: 

“There was an erosion of physical retail to online, but it wasn’t as if Amazon came in and then overnight retail was gone. In Canadian grocery, for example, the percentage of people buying online was so very small. Single digit,” he said.  “And now a real virus has an excellent chance to leave behind a true ‘retail apocalypse’.”

https://www.retail-insider.com/retail-insider/2020/3/second-wave-of-retail-bankruptcies-expected-in-canada-amid-covid-19-pandemic-expert


----------



## garb811

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's a retail apocalypse. No store, that was wholly self-interested, would keep an open shop front. Many will not survive:
> 
> “There was an erosion of physical retail to online, but it wasn’t as if Amazon came in and then overnight retail was gone. In Canadian grocery, for example, the percentage of people buying online was so very small. Single digit,” he said.  “And now a real virus has an excellent chance to leave behind a true ‘retail apocalypse’.”
> 
> https://www.retail-insider.com/retail-insider/2020/3/second-wave-of-retail-bankruptcies-expected-in-canada-amid-covid-19-pandemic-expert


I agree the consequences to the retail sector are going to be devastating; I'm not so sure that is going to be the case for the big name food chains though.


----------



## dapaterson

I live just south of a main street in a quite gentrified area with a few chains, a number of restaurants, and a lot of small shops.  They're all closed indefinitely, and I fear that few will survive.  Part of the appeal of this area is the presence of so many unique places to shop and eat... which, come the summer, may well be papered over windows.


----------



## MilEME09

My worry is that, it is the small independent retailers, especially niche businesses like hobby shops will close as they do more have the ability to weather the storm.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I live just south of a main street in a quite gentrified area with a few chains, a number of restaurants, and a lot of small shops.  They're all closed indefinitely, and I fear that few will survive.  Part of the appeal of this area is the presence of so many unique places to shop and eat... which, come the summer, may well be papered over windows.



Same may happen to our shopping district.  More than 400 shops, restaurants and services.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22bloor+west+village%22&hl=en&sxsrf=ALeKk039nGgWY5cbddQxWSOh9PWYsMN3CQ:1585437425645&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAtMbUpr7oAhVOWs0KHWBeAmQQ_AUoA3oECBgQBQ&biw=1280&bih=641

Been hosting North Americas largest Ukrainian festival for the last 24 years.  Also a summer festival. Halloween festival, and Christmas "Cavalcade of Lights".


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Let's just say the appeal of heavy densification has had the shine taken off of it. There are going to be a lot of social and economic ramifications from this event.


----------



## Weinie

Colin P said:
			
		

> Let's just say the appeal of heavy densification has had the shine taken off of it. _*There are going to be a lot of social and economic ramifications from this event.*_


YUP Hard!!!!. My own ponderings for the last week.  Supply chain questions. Economic and employment ramifications. Political implications, my own personal head of family responsibility and implications, societal pathologies, societal resilience. Gas is under $.60 a litre (about freakin time). We are in a relatively good space, but that could change in an instant.

Not a chicken little guy, but not an ostrich either, Covid-19 will have vast societal ramifications.


----------



## Remius

garb811 said:
			
		

> Call me jaded but...
> 
> How much of this is true altruism and how much is this insurance against a backlash when quarterly earnings are reported and people start to see how much profit these places have made off of the run on goods caused by the hoarders and their early failures to implement quantity control to stop it?



Maybe.  But if you want to keep your employees working during this mess you need to compensate them.  

The grocery store I frequent now have their employees doing crowd control, extra sanitation and watching people for symptoms.  They also have to put up with frustrated customers who can’t get their toilet paper. 

I don’t really care why they are doing it or their motivations behind it.  As long as the people working are getting a bump in pay that is all that matters.  

Good for them.


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe.  But if you want to keep your employees working during this mess you need to compensate them.
> 
> _*The grocery store I frequent now have their employees doing crowd control, extra sanitation and watching people for symptoms.  They also have to put up with frustrated customers who can’t get their toilet paper.
> 
> I don’t really care why they are doing it or their motivations behind it.  As long as the people working are getting a bump in pay that is all that matters*_.
> 
> Good for them.
> 
> Agreed good for them. Also calls into question the whole idea of "work valuation." We are likely to see a significant discussion on this in fall 2020


----------



## The Bread Guy

garb811 said:
			
		

> Call me jaded but...
> 
> How much of this is true altruism and how much is this insurance against a backlash when quarterly earnings are reported and people start to see how much profit these places have made off of the run on goods caused by the hoarders and their early failures to implement quantity control to stop it?


Nobody can blame you for being jaded at all - after all, #BusinessGonnaBusiness.  That said, if they're worth this much now, the naive part of me thinks it maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay be tough to say, "thanks for coming out - back to minimum wage for you" once things calm down.  

And everyone goes back to forgetting people getting lowish wages often do valuable work.


----------



## mariomike

Colin P said:
			
		

> Let's just say the appeal of heavy densification has had the shine taken off of it.



I live in a low density residential neighbourhood of bungalows. I worked in the asphalt jungle. Doesn't mean I have to live in it.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Swansea is also the only Toronto neighbourhood to have a lake, a river, and a pond as it's natural boundaries. Swansea's hilly terrain, winding roads and many mature trees accentuate the storybook houses that line the residential streets of this neighbourhood.



The shopping district is to the north.



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> There are going to be a lot of social and economic ramifications from this event.



We were already getting our prescriptions and over the counter stuff online through Alliance Pharmacy Group ( APG ). 

Glasses, and even toilet paper. My wife orders pretty well everything on line. 

Except food. Until now.

When this thing started, our kids brought groceries over. But, now, we buy our groceries online through Walmart. 
https://www.walmart.ca/en/online-grocery-shopping-pickup

Don't have to go inside. Don't even get out of the car. Just pop the trunk, and they load it in.

I think they have delivery service too, so we may look into that.




			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> That said, if they're worth this much now, the naive part of me thinks it maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay be tough to say, "thanks for coming out - back to minimum wage for you" once things calm down.
> 
> And everyone goes back to forgetting people getting lowish wages often do valuable work.



Time for Tommy,

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
 But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play—

The other thing I like about Walmart online groceries is the fact they come from Head Office - or whatever they call it.

So, the groceries have never been on retail shelves with the public coughing and touching it.


----------



## Underway

There are a lot of potential changes coming:

-a true "guaranteed wage" experiment and an understanding governments can spend far more than we think they could, essentially austerity is an ideological choice, not a necessity
-many companies realize overstaffed are cleaning out the C employees and keeping the A employees with limited repercussions
-companies will have the bargaining power in many industries regarding wages 
-inefficient office space usage is identified on a massive scale
-the idea we are incapable of making massive changes for climate action is demonstrably wrong
-a large number of new wars and conflicts as the west looks inwards and doesn't pay attention to the concerns of Syria etc...
-an emboldened working class in the US, this is the moment they realize who actually greases the wheels down there


----------



## MJP

Underway said:
			
		

> -an emboldened working class in the US, this is the moment they realize who actually greases the wheels down there



This is the biggest one IMHO, more basic workers rights (sick leave, mata/pata) plus the concept of medical care that is not tied to a job (ie: insurance) really seems to be percolating. I mean only every other western democracy has much of what Americans are lacking so it isn't like the concept doesn't work


----------



## dimsum

MJP said:
			
		

> This is the biggest one IMHO, more basic workers rights (sick leave, mata/pata) plus the concept of medical care that is not tied to a job (ie: insurance) really seems to be percolating. I mean only every other western democracy has much of what Americans are lacking so it isn't like the concept doesn't work



Like how the Black Plague ended up with more power to the serfs.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The economic and fiscal situation is going to be so far away from anyone's ability to understand and manage it that everyone is going to race back to what they understand - ie. status quo c. Dec 2019 - as fast as they can.

"-the idea we are incapable of making massive changes for climate action is demonstrably wrong"

Highly unlikely.


----------



## FJAG

Hopefully that will include either limiting ridiculous corporate CEO and Board salaries or taxing the crap out of them.

 :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:
			
		

> Maybe.  But if you want to keep your employees working during this mess you need to compensate them.



Who needs to keep all their employees working when the Prime Minster just announced a juicy EI package and some low interest loans, plus a 75% wage subsidy? You can ditch 90% of the staff, keep a skeleton crew on to make sure the place is in good shape, then staff up again when the restrictions come off.

Unless, of course, you care about your brand, which is another matter entirely....


----------



## mariomike

Not good.

Due to shortages, FDNY has ordered their EMTs and paramedics to no longer use N95 masks, on any calls, unless an aerosol generating procedure is being performed. 

They don't know what conditions exist when entering apartments, houses or commercial spaces.

This order is completely contrary to the order we received during SARS. N95 mask all the time at work – only exception if > 3 metres from others in station.

I'm not a doctor, but I can't see this ending well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

So how is that "Just in time" inventory system working for you? This is what happens when you allow accountants to have to much control or say. I hope some lessons on burn rates for PPE are learned from all of this, and not forgotten 3 years from now.


----------



## mariomike

Colin P said:
			
		

> So how is that "Just in time" inventory system working for you?



Just fine, thank-you. Enjoying the comfort and safety of my home.  

But, I remember the back and forth on the N95. The union finally won. After that, no more of our friends were admitted to ICUs.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Who needs to keep all their employees working when the Prime Minster just announced a juicy EI package and some low interest loans, plus a 75% wage subsidy? You can ditch 90% of the staff, keep a skeleton crew on to make sure the place is in good shape, then staff up again when the restrictions come off.
> 
> Unless, of course, you care about your brand, which is another matter entirely....



That is sort of the point.  Increase the wage to make it less attractive to go on EI.  If you ditch 90% of your staff you stop making money because you can’t operate.  Hours have already been cut and staff have been rerolled into things like crowd control.  The store I mentioned had two people outside Manning the doors.  They had another directing people at the cash area that was reduced to a sort of lane corral.  Only 4 cash registers were operating.  Other staff were cleaning carts.

Staff have already been reduced at most places but there is a limit on how much you can cut before:

A) not being able to operate and meet demand
B) burning out your skeleton staff resulting in A)

Food distribution stores have been designated essential so I doubt they could closed for long before the bit would mandate them open anyway.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

FJAG said:
			
		

> Hopefully that will include either limiting ridiculous corporate CEO and Board salaries or taxing the crap out of them.
> 
> :cheers:



Isn't that for the shareholders to deal with? Or do you want a government commission deciding what is "fair and reasonable" compensation for every job in Canada?


----------



## Journeyman

Ides of March, indeed
https://twitter.com/i/status/1244119212701990913

I'll just leave this here, with no comment besides  :not-again:


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The economic and fiscal situation is going to be so far away from anyone's ability to understand and manage it that everyone is going to race back to what they understand - ie. status quo c. Dec 2019 - as fast as they can.
> 
> "-the idea we are incapable of making massive changes for climate action is demonstrably wrong"
> 
> Highly unlikely.



I agree with Brad. This whole episode is a test run of exactly what climate action would look like on a permanent (vice temporary- hopefully) basis, on the scale envisioned by people like Greta Thunberg and her fellow travellers.

The average person is going to be a whole lot more concerned about their paycheque, mortgage payments/making rent and even where their next meal is coming from over the next few months than they will be about CO2 emissions. Woe to the politician who brings up carbon taxes when 30% of the Canadian population is unemployed.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remius said:
			
		

> ... If you ditch 90% of your staff you stop making money because you can’t operate ...


... notwithstanding, as others have pointed out, the profit made by price gouging demand-adjusting prices on things like toilet paper and hand sanitizer.

And once this is over, how many customers'll be willing to pay an extra buck above the pre-COVID price for a pack of toilet paper in order to at least increase the odds of better wages?  I'm going to guess not many, especially after the rough ride we're heading into.


----------



## daftandbarmy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... notwithstanding, as others have pointed out, the profit made by price gouging demand-adjusting prices on things like toilet paper and hand sanitizer.
> 
> And once this is over, how many customers'll be willing to pay an extra buck above the pre-COVID price for a pack of toilet paper in order to at least increase the odds of better wages?  I'm going to guess not many, especially after the rough ride we're heading into.



The organizations that will do well will be the ones who can operate the best online. Reducing the staffing and hard space overhead will help increase ‘mass customization’ while reducing prices through competition. My guess is you’ll see a lot of jobs lost in those service sector (including public sector) organizations that can do that well. Conversely, new jobs will become available that enable that online channels to exist and operate.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Strange times -- RUS CBRN/NBC troops now appear to be disinfecting/sanitizing hot spots in Italy.

Attached photo caption:  "A *Russian Army specialist* walks outside the Honegger nursing home where 35 people have died so far from coronavirus in Albino, Italy, on March 28, 2020, amid the spread of the COVID-19 (new coronavirus) pandemic. (Piero CRUCIATTI / AFP)" (source)


----------



## Kirkhill

Some more commentary on the quality of the Observations and how they are Oriented as we Decide how to Act.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-to-understand-and-report-figures-for-covid-19-deaths-
Dr. John Lee is a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist.



> Let’s look at the *UK numbers*. As of 9 a.m. on Saturday there were 1,019 deaths and 17,089 confirmed cases – a death rate of 6.0 per cent. If one third of the deaths are caused by Covid-19 and the number of cases is underestimated by a factor of say 15, the death rate would be 0.13 per cent and the number of deaths due to Covid-19 would be 340. *This number should be placed in perspective with the number of deaths we would normally expect in the first 28 days of March – roughly 46,000*.



Dr Lee believes that there is reason to suggest that the number of CoVid 19 deaths may considerably lower than reported.   He also suggests that the actual infection rate is still unknown.  Also the time factor is undefined.

We are still more reliant on throwing dice and relying on probabilities and possibilities than having a clear view of the field and knowing what outcomes are most likely.

Also, there is this article.

https://www.amgreatness.com/2020/03/28/its-not-a-choice-between-lives-or-the-economy/
The article has a bias and is a bit of proselytizing but this comment stands out:



> Some numbers: According to the CDC, during the 2018-2019 flu season, there were some 810,000 hospitalizations in the United States for flu and 61,000 deaths. As of March 26, we have seen more than 490,000 hospitalizations and 34,000 flu deaths. Add in the COVID-19 numbers and you get 565,000 hospitalizations and 35,264 deaths. In other words, seen in context, COVID-19 cases are a barely discernible blip.
> 
> With these differences: the patients suffering from the effects of COVID-19 tend to be much sicker, taking up hospital beds for longer, and they are arriving more quickly and in bigger clumps.



The comment based on this work
https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/essays-and-commentaries/covid-19-is-not-going-to-overwhelm-our-healthcare-system/











There is, absolutely, justifiable grounds for concern, for caution.  There is also justification for optimism.  

What was Phase 2?  After that Dash, Down, Crawl?  Observe was it?


----------



## OceanBonfire

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Ides of March, indeed
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1244119212701990913
> 
> I'll just leave this here, with no comment besides  :not-again:



Wait until you see mid-April where, according to experts, it's the peak.


----------



## Good2Golf

Like they say, Chris, "lies, damed lies, and statistics."

What Dr. Lee doesn't fully include in his assessment's charts is mention of cases identified/confirmed, which would have tied more closely to how COVID-19 stats are being reported by John Hopkins and other similar means.  CDC figures for US flu for 2018-2019 indicate of 35M cases, there were approximately 35K deaths, or a 0.10% mortality rate for the 12-month period.



> LINK: CDC estimates that influenza was associated with more than 35.5 million illnesses, more than 16.5 million medical visits, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 influenza season. This burden was similar to estimated burden during the 2012–2013 influenza season1.



As of 29 March, the US COVID-19 numbers are: 125,313 confirmed cases and 2,197 deaths, or a 1.75% mortality rate for the assessed period (20 January to 29 March).  

So up to now (and US cases/deaths are still growing exponentially at the moment), COVID-19 proportionately in the U.S. has been 1.75÷0.10=17.5x more deadly than the flu was in the U.S. in 2018-2019.  Absolute case/death numbers lower, yes...proportionately higher though...a LOT (17.5x) higher and the exponential case/death climb continues.  I hope I'm wrong, but I'm willing to wager that the absolute COVID-19 numbers for 2020/2021 for the US are going to be worse than the standard influenza.  I suppose we'll see in 9-10 months' time.

Regards
G2G


----------



## dapaterson

A big part of leadership is showing up...

The heads of NYC's Mount Sinai hospital group are holed up in their Florida homes, far away from the crisis in NYC 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/28/mount-sinai-hospital-leaders-holed-up-in-florida-vacation-homes-during-coronavirus-crisis/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Kirkhill

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Like they say, Chris, "lies, damed lies, and statistics."
> 
> What Dr. Lee doesn't fully include in his assessment's charts is mention of cases identified/confirmed, which would have tied more closely to how COVID-19 stats are being reported by John Hopkins and other similar means.  CDC figures for US flu for 2018-2019 indicate of 35M cases, there were approximately 35K deaths, or a 0.10% mortality rate for the 12-month period.
> 
> 
> As of 29 March, the US COVID-19 numbers are: 125,313 confirmed cases and 2,197 deaths, or a 1.75% mortality rate for the assessed period (20 January to 29 March).
> 
> So up to now (and US cases/deaths are still growing exponentially at the moment), COVID-19 proportionately in the U.S. has been 1.75÷0.10=17.5x more deadly than the flu was in the U.S. in 2018-2019.  Absolute case/death numbers lower, yes...proportionately higher though...a LOT (17.5x) higher and the exponential case/death climb continues.  I hope I'm wrong, but I'm willing to wager that the absolute COVID-19 numbers for 2020/2021 for the US are going to be worse than the standard influenza.  I suppose we'll see in 9-10 months' time.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



The CDC charts were not from Dr. Lee G2G. They were from the other sources I mentioned. Regardless.  I take your point about statistics.  And I agree fully.  Statistics are arguable.  Even by the experts.

So I will take that wager - a bottle of Jamesons to an Auchentoshan - that the glass is half-full.


----------



## tomahawk6

When the after action report is done I think the WHO will be marked as the villains along with China.


----------



## Kirkhill

While on the subject of statistics - has anyone heard of any indication of polling of the general populace to find out what the daily spread of infection is like?

It seems to me that the Angus Reids of this world should be engaged devising sampling plans for home testing during this lockdown/slowdown to determine the current spread and the rate of spread.

That is ultimately what their skill sets were designed for.  Not for opinions.  But for accurate analyses of populations.


----------



## FJAG

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> The CDC charts were not from Dr. Lee G2G. They were from the other sources I mentioned. Regardless.  I take your point about statistics.  And I agree fully.  Statistics are arguable.  Even by the experts.
> 
> So I will take that wager - a bottle of Jamesons to an Auchentoshan - that the glass is half-full.



Over and above the fact that statistics are often open to interpretation is the fact that these viruses are different. Covid 19 seems to be a "stickier" virus meaning that once in the system it isn't cleared out as well as others. On the other hand we've had vaccinations for flu which protects a lot of people. Those facts skew results.

The significant statistic is the mortality rate which seems to indicate a ten-fold + rate over the flu from those cases that enter the hospitalization stream.

We'll never be able to do a clear comparison because many people take very little precaution (other than flu shots) to stop transmission of the flu while we are taking steps to slow Covid transmission in a fairly large way. 

Another skew is that while we do gather statistics on hospitalizations, we don't really know how many actual cases there have been because many cases of both viruses are never reported.

 :cheers:


----------



## Kirkhill

FJAG said:
			
		

> Over and above the fact that statistics are often open to interpretation is the fact that these viruses are different. Covid 19 seems to be a "stickier" virus meaning that once in the system it isn't cleared out as well as others. On the other hand we've had vaccinations for flu which protects a lot of people. Those facts skew results.
> 
> The significant statistic is the mortality rate which seems to indicate a ten-fold + rate over the flu from those cases that enter the hospitalization stream.
> 
> We'll never be able to do a clear comparison because many people take very little precaution (other than flu shots) to stop transmission of the flu while we are taking steps to slow Covid transmission in a fairly large way.
> 
> Another skew is that while we do gather statistics on hospitalizations, we don't really know how many actual cases there have been because many cases of both viruses are never reported.
> 
> :cheers:




And those are among the points that Dr Lee was making.



> How to understand – and report – figures for ‘Covid deaths’
> 29 March 2020, 8:07am
> 
> Every day, now, we are seeing figures for ‘Covid deaths’. These numbers are often expressed on graphs showing an exponential rise. But care must be taken when reading (and reporting) these figures. Given the extraordinary response to the emergence of this virus, it’s vital to have a clear-eyed view of its progress and what the figures mean. The world of disease reporting has its own dynamics, ones that are worth understanding. *How accurate, or comparable, are these figures comparing Covid-19 deaths in various countries?*
> 
> We often see a ratio expressed: deaths, as a proportion of cases. The figure is taken as a sign of how lethal Covid-19 is, but the ratios vary wildly. In the US, 1.8 per cent (2,191 deaths in 124,686 confirmed cases), Italy 10.8 per cent, Spain 8.2 per cent, Germany 0.8 per cent, France 6.1 per cent, UK 6.0 per cent. A fifteen-fold difference in death rate for the same disease seems odd amongst such similar countries: all developed, all with good healthcare systems. All tackling the same disease.
> 
> *You might think it would be easy to calculate death rates*. Death is a stark and easy-to-measure end point. In my working life (I’m a retired pathology professor) I usually come across studies that express it comparably and as a ratio: the number of deaths in a given period of time in an area, divided by that area’s population. For example, 10 deaths per 1,000 population per year. So just three numbers:
> 
> *The population who have contracted the disease
> The number dying of disease
> The relevant time period*
> 
> *The trouble is that in the Covid-19 crisis each one of these numbers is unclear.
> *
> *1. Why the figures for Covid-19 infections are a vast underestimate *
> 
> Say there was a disease that always caused a large purple spot to appear in the middle of your forehead after two days – it would be easy to measure. Any doctor could diagnose this, and national figures would be reliable. Now, consider a disease that causes a variable raised temperature and cough over a period of 5 to 14 days, as well as variable respiratory symptoms ranging from hardly anything to severe respiratory compromise. There will be a range of symptoms and signs in patients affected by this disease; widely overlapping with similar effects caused by many other infectious diseases. Is it Covid-19, seasonal flu, a cold – or something else? It will be impossible to tell by clinical examination.
> 
> The only way to identify people who definitely have the disease will be by using a lab test that is both specific for the disease (detects this disease only, and not similar diseases) and sensitive for the disease (picks up a large proportion of people with this disease, whether severe or mild). Developing accurate, reliable, validated tests is difficult and takes time. At the moment, we have to take it on trust that the tests in use are measuring what we think they are.
> 
> *So far in this pandemic, test kits have mainly been reserved for hospitalised patients with significant symptoms. Few tests have been carried out in patients with mild symptoms.* (Edit: And virtually none, it would seem, on those exhibiting no symptoms - see my Angus Reid comment) *This means that the number of positive tests will be far lower than the number of people who have had the disease*. *Sir Patrick Vallance, the government’s chief scientific adviser, has been trying to stress this. He suggested that the real figure for the number of cases could be 10 to 20 times higher than the official figure*. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus (all derived from lab tests) will be 10 to 20 times lower than it appears to be from the published figures. The more the number of untested cases goes up, the lower the true death rate.
> 
> *2. Why Covid-19 deaths are a substantial over-estimate*
> Next, what about the deaths? Many* UK health spokespersons have been careful to repeatedly say that the numbers quoted in the UK indicate death with the virus, not death due to the virus* – this matters. When giving evidence in parliament a few days ago, *Prof. Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London said that he now expects fewer than 20,000 Covid-19 deaths in the UK but, importantly, two-thirds of these people would have died anyway.* In other words, he suggests that the crude figure for ‘Covid deaths’ is three times higher than the number who have actually been killed by Covid-19. (Even the two-thirds figure is an estimate – it would not surprise me if the real proportion is higher.)
> 
> This nuance is crucial ­– not just in understanding the disease, but for understanding the burden it might place on the health service in coming days. Unfortunately nuance tends to be lost in the numbers quoted from the database being used to track Covid-19: the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center. It has compiled a huge database, with Covid-19 data from all over the world, updated daily – and its figures are used, world over, to track the virus. This data is not standardised and so probably not comparable, yet this important caveat is seldom expressed by the (many) graphs we see. It risks exaggerating the quality of data that we have.
> 
> *The distinction between dying ‘with’ Covid-19 and dying ‘due to’ Covid-19 is not just splitting hairs*. Consider some examples: an 87-year-old woman with dementia in a nursing home; a 79-year-old man with metastatic bladder cancer; a 29-year-old man with leukaemia treated with chemotherapy; a 46-year-old woman with motor neurone disease for 2 years. All develop chest infections and die. All test positive for Covid-19. Yet all were vulnerable to death by chest infection from any infective cause (including the flu). Covid-19 might have been the final straw, but it has not caused their deaths. Consider two more cases: a 75-year-old man with mild heart failure and bronchitis; a 35-year-old woman who was previously fit and well with no known medical conditions. Both contract a chest infection and die, and both test positive for Covid-19. In the first case it is not entirely clear what weight to place on the pre-existing conditions versus the viral infection – to make this judgement would require an expert clinician to examine the case notes. The final case would reasonably be attributed to death caused by Covid-19, assuming it was true that there were no underlying conditions.
> 
> *It should be noted that there is no international standard method for attributing or recording causes of death*. Also, normally, most respiratory deaths never have a specific infective cause recorded, whereas at the moment one can expect all positive Covid-19 results associated with a death to be recorded. Again, this is not splitting hairs. Imagine a population where more and more of us have already had Covid-19, and where every ill and dying patient is tested for the virus. The deaths apparently due to Covid-19, the Covid trajectory, will approach the overall death rate. It would appear that all deaths were caused by Covid-19 – would this be true? No. The severity of the epidemic would be indicated by how many extra deaths (above normal) there were overall.
> 
> *3. Covid-19 and a time period*
> 
> Finally, what about the time period? In a fast-moving scenario such as the Covid-19 crisis, the daily figures present just a snapshot. If people take quite a long time to die of a disease, it will take a while to judge the real death rate and initial figures will be an underestimate. But if people die quite quickly of the disease, the figures will be nearer the true rate. It is probable that there is a slight lag – those dying today might have been seriously ill for some days. But as time goes by this will become less important as a steady state is reached.
> 
> Let me finish with a couple of examples. Colleagues in Germany feel sure that their numbers are nearer the truth than most, because they had plenty of testing capacity ready when the pandemic struck. Currently the death rate is 0.8 per cent in Germany. If we assume that about one third of the recorded deaths are due to Covid-19 and that they have managed to test a third of all cases in the country who actually have the disease (a generous assumption), then the death rate for Covid-19 would be 0.08 per cent. That might go up slightly, as a result of death lag. If we assume at present that this effect might be 25 per cent (which seems generous), that would give an overall, and probably upper limit, of death rate of 0.1 per cent, which is similar to seasonal flu.
> 
> *Let’s look at the UK numbers. As of 9 a.m. on Saturday there were 1,019 deaths and 17,089 confirmed cases – a death rate of 6.0 per cent*. *If one third of the deaths are caused by Covid-19 and the number of cases is underestimated by a factor of say 15, the death rate would be 0.13 per cent and the number of deaths due to Covid-19 would be 340.* This number should be placed in perspective with the number of deaths we would normally expect in the first 28 days of March – roughly 46,000.
> 
> The number of recorded deaths will increase in the coming days, but so will the population affected by the disease – in all probability much faster than the increase in deaths. Because we are looking so closely at the presence of Covid-19 in those who die – as I look at in more detail in my article in the current issue of The Spectator – the fraction of those who die with Covid-19 (but not of it) in a population where the incidence is increasing, is likely to increase even more. So the measured increase in numbers of deaths is not necessarily a cause for alarm, unless it demonstrates excess deaths – 340 deaths out of 46,000 shows we are not near this at present. We have prepared for the worst, but it has not yet happened. *The widespread testing of NHS staff recently announced may help provide a clearer indication of how far the disease has already spread within the population.*
> 
> The UK and other governments have no control over how their data is reported, but they can minimise the potential for misinterpretation by making absolutely clear what its figures are, and what they are not. After this episode is over, there is a clear need for an internationally coordinated update of how deaths are attributed and recorded, to enable us to better understand what is happening more clearly, when we need to.
> 
> John Lee is a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

A good video if you have diabetes or know someone who does https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3BXqYzTTSQ&fbclid=IwAR3Mr0VIADw_X-1YjctUjTfMvmVPfjr372ehJTaX9NFVkT1Xvp7ArmULClw


Risk factor for type 2 is higher than type 1 generally speaking.


----------



## mariomike

May be upsetting to sensitive viewers.

Reefer trucks being loaded in NYC.
https://twitter.com/gotmybelton/status/1244369597861703685

They are building a hospital inside Central Park. 

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/03/29/emergency-hospital-being-constructed-in-central-park?cid=twitter_NY1


----------



## OceanBonfire

mariomike said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> They are building a hospital inside Central Park.
> 
> https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/03/29/emergency-hospital-being-constructed-in-central-park?cid=twitter_NY1



The provinces here are also preparing for makeshift hospitals:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-makeshift-hospitals-1.5513846

Also:



> *President Trump has reversed his call to reopen businesses by Easter and now says he will extend the nation's coronavirus social distancing guidelines to April 30.*
> 
> https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1244393976846626816


----------



## kkwd

Has this been posted before? 

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html


----------



## tomahawk6

How has Canada avoided the fate of New York ?


----------



## MilEME09

Now I doubt it will be but I hope DND is looked at as part of an economic recovery plan. We already have a infrastructure back log, let's start getting facilities built, contracts signed, and get people working. Personally I'd screw normal procurement rules and hand out contracts like candy for facilities, and equipment. Textron, Bell helicopters, GDLS, ship builders, etc.... expand the CAF snd this expand civilian support staff and contractors. If planned right you could create short and long term jobs from Victoria to Halifax.


----------



## FJAG

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How has Canada avoided the fate of New York ?



We don't go to Rangers' games.

 :cheers:


----------



## Remius

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How has Canada avoided the fate of New York ?



A few things I think.  

We are a smaller population.  It looks like we are more organized.  I don’t mean this as an insult.  But we have a more centralized organisation for this sort of thing.  Our department of health and our public health agency was actually created from the hard lessons of the Spanish flu 100 years ago.  Then add SARS, Zika and more recently the Ebola response, there has been some value in developing pandemic planning.  It seem so that the states differ from the provinces as they seem to be all over the map in their responses and how the federal gvts of both countries are playing roles in this.

We have/had better testing capabilities when this broke out.

https://nationalpost.com/health/canada-among-top-world-performers-in-testing-for-covid-19-despite-shortcomings

It appears the US was slow to start.

Next is personality differences.  We didn’t really have one side claiming hoaxes.  By all means we should have probably acted sooner but when we did the whole country was behind the plan for the most part. Not to mention we don’t have the same mentalities about individual vs collective.  

Our health system despite its problems is more robust.  Yeah universal healthcare may seem like a socialist concept to the US but it means everyone here does not have to worry about the financial side of getting tested or treated.

https://news.wbfo.org/post/canada-s-covid-19-response-vs-us-testing-universal-health-care-and-maybe-little-luck

As the article above states, we may have also been lucky on top of those things.  

That does not mean we are out of the woods in all of this. 

To summarize 

Better public health policies.
Different cultural attitudes.
Luck.


Edited for grammar.


----------



## OceanBonfire

MIT will publish an open-source design of a low cost (about $100) ventilator:

https://twitter.com/MIT/status/1244279417179906049

https://news.mit.edu/2020/ventilator-covid-deployment-open-source-low-cost-0326


----------



## Remius

Saw these guys featured on tv.

https://nationalpost.com/news/covid-19-ontario-to-buy-one-million-testing-kits-from-leading-tech-firm-amid-backlog-worries

One hour portable test cubes.  Apparently we are buying a million of these bad boys.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:
			
		

> A few things I think.
> 
> We are a smaller population.  It looks like we are more organized.  I don’t mean this as an insult.  But we have a more centralized organisation for this sort of thing.  Our department of health and our public health agency was actually created from the hard lessons of the Spanish flu 100 years ago.  Then add SARS, Zika and more recently the Ebola response, there has been some value in developing pandemic planning.  It seem so that the states differ from the provinces as they seem to be all over the map in their responses and how the federal gvts of both countries are playing roles in this.
> 
> We have/had better testing capabilities when this broke out.
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/health/canada-among-top-world-performers-in-testing-for-covid-19-despite-shortcomings
> 
> It appears the US was slow to start.
> 
> Next is personality differences.  We didn’t really have one side claiming hoaxes.  By all means we should have probably acted sooner but when we did the whole country was behind the plan for the most part. Not to mention we don’t have the same mentalities about individual vs collective.
> 
> Our health system despite its problems is more robust.  Yeah universal healthcare may seem like a socialist concept to the US but it means everyone here does not have to worry about the financial side of getting tested or treated.
> 
> https://news.wbfo.org/post/canada-s-covid-19-response-vs-us-testing-universal-health-care-and-maybe-little-luck
> 
> As the article above states, we may have also been lucky on top of those things.
> 
> That does not mean we are out of the woods in all of this.
> 
> To summarize
> 
> Better public health policies.
> Different cultural attitudes.
> Luck.
> 
> 
> Edited for grammar.



Also, it seems that New York is testing alot more than other parts of the US (25% of tests administered in the US were in New York) so they are finding more COVID sufferers... 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/26/us/new-york-coronavirus-explainer/index.html


----------



## tomahawk6

Thanks, I was a bit surprised on seeing NY has had 1000 deaths already.

The FDA issues an emergency order allowing the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. This might help to stem the virus.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fda-issues-emergency-authorization-of-anti-malaria-drug-for-coronavirus-care/ar-BB11SD0U?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Eaglelord17

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Thanks, I was a bit surprised on seeing NY has had 1000 deaths already.
> 
> The FDA issues an emergency order allowing the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. This might help to stem the virus.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fda-issues-emergency-authorization-of-anti-malaria-drug-for-coronavirus-care/ar-BB11SD0U?ocid=spartanntp



Look at how quickly Italy was overwhelmed. It was nothing for a few days then it got out of control fast.


----------



## dapaterson

What does this say about the way the military treats its personnel?  What does this say about why we have retention issues?

From Sgt Maj Norman French



> My daughter was born while I was in Afghanistan. On her first birthday it was Jordan, then Cyprus and so on. I am now isolating with my family in a quiet corner of Surrey. Although I wish Covid hadn't happened, this is turning into the happiest time of my life.
> #SundayThoughts



https://twitter.com/NormanF99621763/status/1244314367635664896


----------



## daftandbarmy

What scientists know so far about the effects of coronavirus on children 

As with most things in this pandemic, the idea that coronavirus only threatens older people is an oversimplification. Younger people and children are less likely to die from coronavirus, but their mild symptoms could make them contagious carriers of the virus – and they are more difficult to spot.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/23/scientists-effects-coronavirus-children-studies-carriers


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What does this say about the way the military treats its personnel?  What does this say about why we have retention issues?
> 
> From Sgt Maj Norman French
> 
> https://twitter.com/NormanF99621763/status/1244314367635664896



You do realize he is British right?


----------



## dimsum

Weinie said:
			
		

> You do realize he is British right?



On a completely unrelated note, after seeing the post and looking at his profile picture:

Only the British would look at a pullover sweater with epaulettes for slip-ons and think "nah, I'll just sew rank onto my sleeves instead".

(...and yes, the CA also does this with their DEU shirts and collar ranks)


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> You do realize he is British right?



Yes.  But his experience is not uncommon in the CAF, either.


----------



## Remius

Gen Xers.  The unsung heroes.

Gave me a chuckle but so true.

https://www.papercitymag.com/culture/generation-x-earns-respect-conronavirus-pandemic-stay-home/?fbclid=IwAR09KEcCXi5TymlXp4aIuOdWhrEaqssV_FYAYqiJNb_FI61X_5ZYhVHX7oo


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Viable organs from deceased donors go unused as Ontario hospitals pause some transplants*
> 
> Some viable organs have not been recovered from deceased donors in Ontario in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, as hospitals in the province temporarily scale back procedures that aren't deemed essential, according to a leading transplant specialist in Toronto.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/organ-transplants-paused-ontario-1.5512989


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

So in a way we've already had to decide who lives and who dies


----------



## dapaterson

I know!  Let's sell everything, drive from Quebec to Whitehorse, then fly to a small community in the Yukon to hide from the virus!"


"We were busy dealing with a life-altering pandemic, and this couple just strolls off the plane like cartoon characters," said First Nations chief Dana Tizya-Tramm.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/7kza79/quebec-couple-drove-to-old-crow-yukon-to-escape-coronavirus-angering-locals


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I know!  Let's sell everything, drive from Quebec to Whitehorse, then fly to a small community in the Yukon to hide from the virus!"
> 
> 
> "We were busy dealing with a life-altering pandemic, and this couple just strolls off the plane like cartoon characters," said First Nations chief Dana Tizya-Tramm.
> 
> https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/7kza79/quebec-couple-drove-to-old-crow-yukon-to-escape-coronavirus-angering-locals



There's a business model in there somewhere for a canny first nation group, and I think it might include 'settler rest camps'


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Ontario has biggest single-day jump as health officials confirm 351 cases of COVID-19*
> 
> Monday’s large increase to the number of patients infected with the novel coronavirus is the province’s biggest single-day jump.
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-has-biggest-single-day-jump-as-health-officials-confirm-351-cases-of-covid-19-1.4874028


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I know!  Let's sell everything, drive from Quebec to Whitehorse, then fly to a small community in the Yukon to hide from the virus!"
> 
> 
> "We were busy dealing with a life-altering pandemic, and this couple just strolls off the plane like cartoon characters," said First Nations chief Dana Tizya-Tramm.
> 
> https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/7kza79/quebec-couple-drove-to-old-crow-yukon-to-escape-coronavirus-angering-locals



Yukon is a wonderful, hospitable place, but they look after their own. Most of their First Nations are self-governing and generally have their poop in a group. Old Crow is a small, very isolated place- basically it's at the edge of Canada. It's very well positioned to keep itself safe through this- but there are also quite a few vulnerable people if the virus were to take hold. That can be generalized to all of Yukon, really.


----------



## brihard

I'm curious what they're counting that against; Ontario's numbers yesterday at 10:30 and Ontario's numbers today show a lager jump than that, unless the province had an evening update I wasn't aware of.

They seem to be catching up on testing backlog, so we'll have a bit of artificial inflation of numbers from that- but it's still worryingly high. I think today's data also indicates that testing overall has increased considerably. We might be getting closer to having higher quality data.


----------



## dapaterson

He's an astrophysicist, not a rocket scientist.

Astrophysicist gets magnets stuck up nose while inventing coronavirus device

https://twitter.com/natnewswatch/status/1244663444143509505


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I know!  Let's sell everything, drive from Quebec to Whitehorse, then fly to a small community in the Yukon to hide from the virus!"
> 
> 
> "We were busy dealing with a life-altering pandemic, and this couple just strolls off the plane like cartoon characters," said First Nations chief Dana Tizya-Tramm.
> 
> https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/7kza79/quebec-couple-drove-to-old-crow-yukon-to-escape-coronavirus-angering-locals



My favorite quote from the article:

“Living on the land here is dangerous. It’s not like you wake up in the morning and birds dress you."


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> My favorite quote from the article:
> 
> “Living on the land here is dangerous. It’s not like you wake up in the morning and birds dress you."



Exactly.

That's the job of sergeants-major.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> That's the job of sergeants-major.



Most of them I knew/know are very good at chirping


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *'We've got good plans in place': Gen. Vance*
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1717896259944





> *PM Trudeau ..., says military 'gearing up' for COVID-19 response*
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says that the military is “gearing up” to join the federal approach to combating the COVID-19 pandemic, and the federal government is expanding the wage subsidy for Canadian businesses, no matter their size.
> 
> “Over the past few weeks the Canadian Armed Forces have been gearing up to support our efforts and our communities, as we fight COVID-19,” Trudeau said.
> 
> He said that while the federal government has not yet received a formal request from a province or territory for the military’s intervention, whether sending supplies or to aid with the coming flood or forest fire seasons, they are ready to respond.
> 
> As part of the daily ministerial update on the federal plan to combat the novel coronavirus, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan and Chief of Defence Staff Jonathan Vance offered more details about how the Canadian Armed Forces are planning to handle any calls to assist pandemic response efforts.
> 
> Sajjan said the military has three priorities they are ready to enact: efforts to slow the spread; supporting vulnerable communities; and assisting provinces or municipalities with logistics or direct assistance if needed.
> 
> These efforts would be in addition to being able to respond to other emergencies, like the widespread flooding seen around this time last year.
> 
> The defence minister said there are up to 24,000 regular and reserve forces ready to deploy, and 10 units across the country that could react immediately to any request for assistance whether it be humanitarian, delivering supplies, or other actions.
> 
> Sajjan said that, in anticipation of a surge in cases, the military took precautionary measures to make sure their ranks stayed health and remained ready to respond, including ordering members to stay home.
> 
> “No matter how challenging the circumstances, when called upon, the Canadian Armed Forces are ready to serve,” he said.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pm-trudeau-updates-businesses-aid-eligibility-says-military-gearing-up-for-covid-19-response-1.4873770





> *24,000 Canadian military members ready to respond — if asked — to COVID-19 crisis*
> 
> The federal government has mobilized 24,000 members of the Canadian Armed Forces — nearly one-quarter of all regular and reserve members —  to help provincial and municipal authorities who may need support during the novel coronavirus pandemic with everything from delivering supplies to assisting civilian authorities enforcing quarantine orders.
> 
> So far, no provincial government has asked for the help of the Armed Forces, but Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan and Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of the defence staff, said Monday that the Canadian Forces have been planning and preparing for the day when those requests might be made.
> 
> On Monday, Rear Admiral Craig Baines, commander of Maritime Forces Atlantic, ordered the crews of the HMCS Ville de Québec and the HMCS Moncton, along with a Cyclone helicopter detachment, to be ‘sequestered’ on April 1 in order to preserve their health. The Ville de Québec is a Halifax-class frigate with a crew complement of about 225 while the Moncton is a Kingston-class coastal defence vessel with a complement of about 40. The home ports of both vessels are in Halifax.
> 
> “During this time, tough decisions need to be made in order to preserve the Royal Canadian Navy’s ability to assist the civilian authorities and Canadians during this pandemic,” Baines wrote in a letter published Monday on Twitter.
> 
> Vance has also called up the country’s 31,062 reservists and 5,319 Canadian Rangers and ordered them into full-time service. That means reservists will be leaving their full-time civilian jobs to take up active duty.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6751025/coronavirus-canadian-military-prepared/


----------



## BDTyre

> 24,000 Canadian military members ready to respond — if asked — to COVID-19 crisis
> 
> *Vance has also called up the country’s 31,062 reservists and 5,319 Canadian Rangers and ordered them into full-time service. That means reservists will be leaving their full-time civilian jobs to take up active duty.*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6751025/coronavirus-canadian-military-prepared/



Well that's news to me!


----------



## MilEME09

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Well that's news to me!



I also missed that memo, most be lost in the mail


----------



## daftandbarmy

"That means reservists will be leaving their full-time civilian jobs to take up active duty."

Unfortunately, the reality is that their jobs left them first. On the upside, that means we'll have more troops upon which to draw for a large operation.


----------



## BDTyre

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> "That means reservists will be leaving their full-time civilian jobs to take up active duty."
> 
> Unfortunately, the reality is that their jobs left them first. On the upside, that means we'll have more troops upon which to draw for a large operation.



I know that's been the case for a lot of guys, especially the younger ones. I've been fortunate enough to be able to keep working my civy job.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I think ordering the reserves to active duty, while undoubtedly stressful for them, is a great test of what our reserves can actually do (not not do). 

Maybe this will result in some sort of job legislation for our reserves, maybe guaranteed time off for mandated training.


----------



## Remius

Love how they are asking recently retired to come back but the whole recruiting system is down.


----------



## brihard

I think they're misquoting the MND's speech from earlier today. He did say 24k on deck, and that reservists are being activated. I didn't hear anything suggesting it's a mandatory callup, which would require an Order in Council from the GG (though of course PM makes that call and she rubber stamps).


----------



## ModlrMike

> Vance has also called up the country’s 31,062 reservists and 5,319 Canadian Rangers and ordered them into full-time service. That means reservists will be leaving their full-time civilian jobs to take up active duty.



Doesn't that require the GG's signature?


----------



## Remius

I believe it is a staff check to see who can be put on class C.


----------



## BDTyre

We had a fan-out last week asking for volunteers to form a platoon. There will be a one month training period (one from 1 April to 30 April, and one from 1 May to 30 May for those that can't do April) and 39CBG is expected to provide approx. 400 troops. After that training period, I believe troops are put on standby in case a request for assistance is made.


----------



## FJAG

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Well that's news to me!



To me too. I didn't think that he had the authority. To the best of my knowledge the only authority that the CDS has to activate reservists is under s 275 of the NDA as Aid to the Civil Power which requires a riot or disturbance of the peace beyond the ability of a province and a requisition from the province's attorney general.

On the other hand the Governor in Council can call reservists out on Duty under s 33(2) of the NDA. Call out on "Duty" is not call out on "Active duty" (which is an American concept) nor even "Active Service" (which is the Canadian one).

Either this reporter doesn't know what Vance said or Vance doesn't know what he said (or is talking about).

 :facepalm:


----------



## brihard

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We had a fan-out last week asking for volunteers to form a platoon. There will be a one month training period (one from 1 April to 30 April, and one from 1 May to 30 May for those that can't do April) and 39CBG is expected to provide approx. 400 troops. After that training period, I believe troops are put on standby in case a request for assistance is made.



What are they expecting to need a month of training for?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> What are they expecting to need a month of training for?



Fire season, of course  

joking, joking... I hope....  :surrender:


----------



## BDTyre

That's a great question. My CoC didn't have the details other than it would potentially be a Monday to Friday, 0800 to 1600 sort of affair, but even that was not 100%.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> I think they're misquoting the MND's speech from earlier today. He did say 24k on deck, and that reservists are being activated. I didn't hear anything suggesting it's a mandatory callup, which would require an Order in Council from the GG (though of course PM makes that call and she rubber stamps).



100% they're misquoting. Here's a link to the actual statement. At no point did I ever here about mandatory callups. https://youtu.be/ZA_0LSt0Uiw?t=4550


----------



## blacktriangle

Is there not still a large part of the RegF sitting idle at home?


----------



## Journeyman

Brihard said:
			
		

> What are they expecting to need a month of training for?


ROEs.  The ghost of Somalia will never go away.


----------



## PuckChaser

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Is there not still a large part of the RegF sitting idle at home?



And the entire PRes is doing the same. Whats your point?


----------



## brihard

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ROEs.  The ghost of Somalia will never go away.



Here's a fun thought exercise, and I really hope FJAG chimes in.

If CAF gets called in aid to the civil power for enforcement, they would presumably need to be designated as peace officers for that purpose. The only lawful authority they would have to use force on our soil for law enforcement would be under S.25 of the Crim Code. So if it became necessary to do 'ROE' training (though I hate that term for DomOps and think it would be inappropriate), who would conduct that training? Do the MPs have enough use of force instructors? Would they look for qualified police instructors to 'read in' CAF members who might have to act coercively on how that works?


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> I think they're misquoting the MND's speech from earlier today. He did say 24k on deck, and that reservists are being activated. I didn't hear anything suggesting it's a mandatory callup, which would require an Order in Council from the GG (though of course PM makes that call and she rubber stamps).



They are "_*misquoting*_' hard. Intent is to BPT deploy. That is a long ways from what was reported in the article. Important to push back against misinformation.


----------



## blacktriangle

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And the entire PRes is doing the same. Whats your point?



That is my point!


----------



## BDTyre

Weinie said:
			
		

> They are "_*misquoting*_' hard. Intent is to BPT deploy. That is a long ways from what was reported in the article. Important to push back against misinformation.



I've already reported the error to Global. We'll see if the article actually gets updated.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ROEs.  The ghost of Somalia will never go away.



If only we delivered that training .... at all.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> Here's a fun thought exercise, and I really hope FJAG chimes in.
> 
> If CAF gets called in aid to the civil power for enforcement, they would presumably need to be designated as peace officers for that purpose. The only lawful authority they would have to use force on our soil for law enforcement would be under S.25 of the Crim Code. So if it became necessary to do 'ROE' training (though I hate that term for DomOps and think it would be inappropriate), who would conduct that training? Do the MPs have enough use of force instructors? Would they look for qualified police instructors to 'read in' CAF members who might have to act coercively on how that works?



Anyone with a CQC(B) has Use of Force continuum training. Do we need to designate CAF members as peace officers or can they not exercise Sect 494 of the CCC to perform a "citizen's arrest" depending on the offense? Perhaps the CAF is used as a visual and physical barrier to cover more areas and attach a LEO to those elements to actually conduct the arrests/detentions? A Sect of pers manning a checkpoint frees up a lot of LEOs for other patrols/checkpoints if they only need 1 LEO and a vehicle instead of 4 or 5 and multiple vehicles.


----------



## Infanteer

Wouldn't their authority stem from the Emergencies Act itself (specifically Sect 19 under Public Order Emergencies) vice any other legistlation?


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Anyone with a CQC(B) has Use of Force continuum training. Do we need to designate CAF members as peace officers or can they not exercise Sect 494 of the CCC to perform a "citizen's arrest" depending on the offense? Perhaps the CAF is used as a visual and physical barrier to cover more areas and attach a LEO to those elements to actually conduct the arrests/detentions? A Sect of pers manning a checkpoint frees up a lot of LEOs for other patrols/checkpoints if they only need 1 LEO and a vehicle instead of 4 or 5 and multiple vehicles.



494 only covers arrest for indictable criminal offences or for those freshly pursued by police. A lot of the legal authorities in place are going to stem from provincial legislation, and 494 offers nothing for that.

I wasn't aware that CQC(B) includes the continuum, that's interesting. Does extend to talking about specific legal authorities for use of force under our criminal law, or is more so guys don't go haywire in sorting out someone who's resisting a cordon and search overseas?



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Wouldn't their authority stem from the Emergencies Act itself (specifically Sect 19 under Public Order Emergencies) vice any other legistlation?



I don't really see anything in there that I would feel comfortable saying gives use of force powers in law enforcement to the military. In any case, if n emergency is declared is it not more likely to be a public welfare emergency? Though I suppose they could declare both...


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brihard said:
			
		

> Here's a fun thought exercise, and I really hope FJAG chimes in.
> 
> If CAF gets called in aid to the civil power for enforcement, they would presumably need to be designated as peace officers for that purpose. The only lawful authority they would have to use force on our soil for law enforcement would be under S.25 of the Crim Code. So if it became necessary to do 'ROE' training (though I hate that term for DomOps and think it would be inappropriate), who would conduct that training? Do the MPs have enough use of force instructors? Would they look for qualified police instructors to 'read in' CAF members who might have to act coercively on how that works?



What about section 494? Is designation of a peace officer necessary? Or is that leaving things too broad in terms of, well, being that military pers aren’t simply standard civilians in that type of scenario. (Clearly present with a specific role and in uniform)


----------



## mariomike

USNS Comfort pulls into NYC because CVOID-19, which is spread by close contact, has overwhelmed the hospitals ...so of course New Yorkers gather up in large groups to see the ship arrive at pier 90. 

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/comfort-crowds-59.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=1286


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Here's a fun thought exercise, and I really hope FJAG chimes in.
> 
> If CAF gets called in aid to the civil power for enforcement, they would presumably need to be designated as peace officers for that purpose. The only lawful authority they would have to use force on our soil for law enforcement would be under S.25 of the Crim Code. So if it became necessary to do 'ROE' training (though I hate that term for DomOps and think it would be inappropriate), who would conduct that training? Do the MPs have enough use of force instructors? Would they look for qualified police instructors to 'read in' CAF members who might have to act coercively on how that works?



If the stories I'm hearing from businesses and stores are anything to go by then deployed Canadian soldiers should absolutely get some kind of training or package before stepping out the door because there's going to be incidents.


----------



## blacktriangle

Much better for all involved if LEO are attached. CAF can provide numbers. LEO can provide the experience and legal authority.

...and that's if we even need CAF members out doing the jobs of the police. Lots of other things to do - C2, logistics support, building field hospitals etc. There's simply no way a 22 year old Cpl with a week of training is going to do a better job than a 32 year old police constable with a couple years of experience under their belt. Just imagine the PR nightmare if someone did something stupid. Leave policing to the professionals.


----------



## brihard

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> What about section 494? Is designation of a peace officer necessary? Or is that leaving things too broad in terms of, well, being that military pers aren’t simply standard civilians in that type of scenario. (Clearly present with a specific role and in uniform)



Sorry, we cross posted. See above.

494 allows anyone to arrest for an indictable (including hybrid) offense. So that's most criminal offences under federal law. But say there are provincially designated lockdowns, quarantines, etc outside of the federal Quarantine Act- those would need someone who's designated appropriately for the purpose of enforcing provincial laws. We start getting into a bit of a mess of legal authorities at this point.

If literal push comes to literal shove, troops need to be prepared to know what they can and can't do, and that have to be confident about both sides of that coin. Similar for cases where troops are leveraged to maybe try to deter stupidity by their presence, but people get lippy or aren't particularly inclined to exercise common sense. I've seen mistakes made in the policing world where people believe that they have authorities that they


			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Much better for all involved if LEO are attached. CAF can provide numbers. LEO can provide the experience and legal authority.
> 
> ...and that's if we even need CAF members out doing the jobs of the police. Lots of other things to do - C2, logistics support, building field hospitals etc. There's simply no way a 22 year old Cpl with a week of training is going to do a better job than a 32 year old police constable with a couple years of experience under their belt. Just imagine the PR nightmare if someone did something stupid. Leave policing to the professionals.



100%. Obviously we're talking about potentially desperate measures here. But it could happen, this is the closest it's come to happening since Oka, so it's in CAF's interest to have their ducks in a row. We have a lot more mouthy idiots with cell phone cameras and an axe to grind against authority, and troops aren't accustomed to that.


----------



## dapaterson

The Government of Canada has released an updated list of who's in charge - and who takes over if something happens.  Both succession to cover for the PM, and a pair of alternates for every department in government.

https://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=38932&lang=en


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If the stories I'm hearing from businesses and stores are anything to go by then deployed Canadian soldiers should absolutely get some kind of training or package before stepping out the door because there's going to be incidents.



It would take months...


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brihard said:
			
		

> Sorry, we cross posted. See above.
> 
> 494 allows anyone to arrest for an indictable (including hybrid) offense. So that's most criminal offences under federal law. But say there are provincially designated lockdowns, quarantines, etc outside of the federal Quarantine Act- those would need someone who's designated appropriately for the purpose of enforcing provincial laws. We start getting into a bit of a mess of legal authorities at this point.
> 
> If literal push comes to literal shove, troops need to be prepared to know what they can and can't do, and that have to be confident about both sides of that coin. Similar for cases where troops are leveraged to maybe try to deter stupidity by their presence, but people get lippy or aren't particularly inclined to exercise common sense. I've seen mistakes made in the policing world where people believe that they have authorities that they
> 100%. Obviously we're talking about potentially desperate measures here. But it could happen, this is the closest it's come to happening since Oka, so it's in CAF's interest to have their ducks in a row. We have a lot more mouthy idiots with cell phone cameras and an axe to grind against authority, and troops aren't accustomed to that.



No problem, thanks. I didn’t read further after I saw your initial post sparking the question...and PC was much more detailed and thoughtful in his presentation. I didn’t really ask mine in a well thought-out manner anyway. (I was trying to word it in a way where I was inquiring whether the wearing of uniform would cancel out 494 anyway, even if it was a feasible section under which CAF could actually act in this scenario...if that makes sense? Bah!...trying to do too many things at once...)

Thank you for the added info. (My criminal code familiarity is very limited, so questions such as the one you posted are very interesting.)


----------



## FJAG

Brihard said:
			
		

> Here's a fun thought exercise, and I really hope FJAG chimes in.
> 
> If CAF gets called in aid to the civil power for enforcement, they would presumably need to be designated as peace officers for that purpose. The only lawful authority they would have to use force on our soil for law enforcement would be under S.25 of the Crim Code. So if it became necessary to do 'ROE' training (though I hate that term for DomOps and think it would be inappropriate), who would conduct that training? Do the MPs have enough use of force instructors? Would they look for qualified police instructors to 'read in' CAF members who might have to act coercively on how that works?



I don't want to get too deep into this because this question could easily be the subject of a full lecture. Remember there could be differing circumstances. The military could be called out under the Aid of the Civil Power provisions or under the Call out on Duty. These come with different bundles of powers and responsibilities attached to them. Under Aid of the Civil Power, the peace officer powers come with s 282 of the NDA (i.e. powers of constable). If called out on Duty such powers should be assigned with the GiC and may be limited to only specific members of the force called out. Remember too that not everybody deployed will be working in a job where peace officer powers are needed.

Note as well s 2 of the CCC



> peace officer includes
> (g) officers and non-commissioned members of the Canadian Forces who are
> (ii) employed on duties that the Governor in Council, in regulations made under the National Defence Act for the purposes of this paragraph, has prescribed to be of such a kind as to necessitate that the officers and non-commissioned members performing them have the powers of peace officers;



and QR&O 22.01 and 22.011



> For the purposes of subparagraph (g)(ii) of the definition “peace officer” in section 2 of the Criminal Code, the following duties are prescribed to be of such a kind as to necessitate that the officers and non-commissioned members performing them have the powers of peace officers:
> 
> (a) any lawful duty performed as a result of a specific order or established military custom or practice that is related to any of the following matters:
> 
> (i) the maintenance or restoration of law and order,
> 
> (ii) the protection of property,
> 
> (iii) the protection of persons,
> 
> (iv) the arrest or custody of persons, and
> 
> (v) the apprehension of persons who have escaped from lawful custody or confinement; and
> 
> (b) any duty related to the enforcement of the laws of Canada that are performed as a result of a request from the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the Commissioner of Corrections, under an Act, a regulation, a statutory instrument or a Memorandum of Understanding between the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Minister of National Defence.



Read the notes to this too.

Note that the main difference between a civilian and a peace officer is that a peace officer has a duty to take action in certain situations where a civilian could walk away. This is why there are special protections for peace officers within the CCC such as s 25.

If a situation comes up where individuals who are called out may need to use force in their duties then Domestic Rules of Engagement will be issued which prescribe the circumstances under which the soldier can act and how to act/react. Remember that the chain of command may put greater restrictions on the use of force than the law allows. 

In my experience Domestic ROEs are always very comprehensive and mission specific and like any other ROE are military orders being issued by the chain of command. They are not lessons on how civilian police do their job and are not an attempt to be a "civilian police force job description in a nutshell" resume.  

Again, in my experience, instructions on Domestic ROE are always provided by legal officers who are accompanying the force to those individuals who are put into positions where the use of force is a possibility and who may need peace officer powers.

Situations var. When I was in Montreal in 1970 we all had peace officer powers and often were operating in fairly isolated post (such as guarding a major power line post) On the other hand in Winnipeg during the flood we did send out some security patrols through evacuated areas but when doing so they were accompanied by at least one civilian police officer who was tasked to do the arresting etc.

 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

Thanks FJAG, much appreciated!


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that CQC(B) includes the continuum, that's interesting. Does extend to talking about specific legal authorities for use of force under our criminal law, or is more so guys don't go haywire in sorting out someone who's resisting a cordon and search overseas?



Unless the QS has drastically changed since I took and subsequently assisted instructing on a few courses in 2009/2010, there's 2 periods (if I remember correctly) covering Use of Force continuum and its on the written test. My DS incorporated a few scenarios in which we had to apply it with us both armed and unarmed and the subject either starting at assaultive/deadly force or escalating up the scale so we had some practical training in its use. His scenarios were always VCPs/Checkpoints as that was the easiest to brief. Intermediate weapons weren't covered. Gave me enough confidence that I could detain a person using the proper legal force in a stressful situation if the need arose.


----------



## PuckChaser

In continuing with Doug Ford's positive press and leadership during the crisis, he actually drove out to a company who was donating surgical masks to pick them up himself and bring them to the Ontario Goverment warehouse in Toronto so it would be easier to distribute them. He apparently didn't even tell his staff because it was a Sunday, so he just rolls up there in his pickup truck like he's helping a buddy move and loads the stuff up.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/doug-ford-personally-delivered-90-000?fbclid=IwAR2gdQ8eEWY3b6BRQJCO5xMgARr4g6jxhXMM8QBz8f4Pa7x9n6LgAogkeNI


----------



## OldTanker

In speaking to a couple of my equally long-time retired colleagues, we were thinking if the Federal Government was planning to use something like Phoenix to manage the distribution of pandemic-related benefits to the various recipients, perhaps we could just give soldiers big bags of cash and they could stand on street corners handing it out. Probably more efficient. _Sarcasm_.


----------



## BDTyre

I guess the Global reporter wasn't the only one who misinterpreted or was confused by the MND's statement as the article at https://globalnews.ca/news/6751025/coronavirus-canadian-military-prepared has now been updated to say this:



> Sajjan said the country’s reservists “are being brought into full-time service and will be part of an integrated Canadian Armed Forces response.”
> 
> The Canadian Forces has 31,062 reservists and 5,319 Canadian Rangers.
> 
> The Department of National Defence subsequently clarified Sajjan’s remarks to say that only “available” reservists and Rangers would be put into service.
> 
> But the department could not immediately say how many “available” reservists were being put into service nor could it say when the order was made for reservists.


----------



## daftandbarmy

FJAG said:
			
		

> On the other hand in Winnipeg during the flood we did send out some security patrols through evacuated areas but when doing so they were accompanied by at least one civilian police officer who was tasked to do the arresting etc.
> 
> :cheers:



... and that's the only way we should roll IMHO, with the police doing the actual arresting.


----------



## PuckChaser

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I guess the Global reporter wasn't the only one who misinterpreted or was confused by the MND's statement as the article at https://globalnews.ca/news/6751025/coronavirus-canadian-military-prepared has now been updated to say this:



To be fair to Global, Sajjan is a horrible public speaker and basically read his statement with his head down staring at the paper the whole time. He then answered questions with almost as many uhms and ahs as the Prime Minister does.


----------



## garb811

Yeah, F no, nope, no thanks...


----------



## BDTyre

Learned from the master I guess.

To add more details to the fan-out we received last week, those selected will be on Class C contracts, which makes sense given the MND's comment that reservists would be integrated/augmenting ref force units (this also means it could be a longer term tasking). Unfortunately, no one from my section was selected for the task force.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I’m sure everyone needed a good chuckle :nod:



> Scientist gets magnets stuck in his nose after coronavirus device mishap
> 
> Jack Guy
> 
> The internet is awash with suggestions for keeping yourself occupied at home during the coronavirus outbreak, but one Australian scientist ended up in the hospital thanks to his choice of entertainment.
> 
> With medical authorities around the world advising people to stop touching their faces, to help slow the spread of the virus, Melbourne-based Daniel Reardon thought he would try to make a sensor that could tell if your hands were near your face, he told CNN.
> 
> An astrophysicist by trade, Reardon, 27, had some electronic parts lying around and decided to try his hand at a spot of engineering.
> 
> "I was just feeling a bit bored when it came up," he said, admitting that his invention had the opposite effect to the one he intended: Instead of making a noise when his hands were close to his face, it buzzed incessantly until he moved them to his face.
> 
> "I had a laugh and gave up temporarily," he added. "Then I started mindlessly placing the magnets on my face. First my ear lobes, then my nostrils -- like a magnetic piercing."
> 
> At that point, Reardon had only gained himself some temporary body modifications, but things were about to get slightly more permanent.
> 
> "The problem was when I put magnets in my other nostril," he said. "They all pinched together and the ones on my septum got stuck!"
> 
> Unable to remove them by himself, Reardon ended up heading to the local hospital.
> 
> He said he spent about an hour there, describing the facility as "pretty quiet," as coronavirus patients are being sent to another hospital.
> 
> "The staff enjoyed it -- several doctors and some nurses came to laugh at/with me," said Reardon.
> 
> "In the end, two doctors pulled at them -- one grabbing at the magnets in each nostril."
> 
> Reardon took a photo of the medical report, which states that he had denied there were any further magnets up his nose.
> 
> "I was in a bit of pain while they were moving the magnets and my nose -- I had made it pretty sore myself," he said.
> 
> "But other than that I was laughing with everyone else."
> 
> So far, Australia has had over 4,200 cases of coronavirus and 17 deaths, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> In response to the outbreak, the country tightened its restrictions on movement Monday. Prime Minister Scott Morrison said public gatherings would be limited to two people and ordered residents to stay home, except to shop for necessities, medical care, exercise, work or education.



 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/scientist-gets-magnets-stuck-in-his-nose-after-coronavirus-device-mishap-1.4874558


----------



## Weinie

Melbourne-based Daniel Reardon thought he would try to make a _*sensor that could tell if your hands were near your face*_, he told CNN.

You have several sensors that tell if your hands are near your face...your eyes, your frickin brain (if you have one). Future Darwin award winner.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> Melbourne-based Daniel Reardon thought he would try to make a _*sensor that could tell if your hands were near your face*_, he told CNN.
> 
> You have several sensors that tell if your hands are near your face...your eyes, your frickin brain (if you have one). Future Darwin award winner.



Nerds gonna nerd.  :nod:


----------



## mariomike

Getting that Facebook content before they get hooked up on a 2-fer-1 ventilator,

https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1244741298311114754

No more fire response unless the patient is dying,

"Effective immediately, all dual purpose response incidents with the exception of ARREST, CHOKE and DROWNING call types will be discontinued."
https://twitter.com/UFOA854/status/1244436031069466635


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Weinie said:
			
		

> Melbourne-based Daniel Reardon thought he would try to make a _*sensor that could tell if your hands were near your face*_, he told CNN.
> 
> You have several sensors that tell if your hands are near your face...your eyes, your frickin brain (if you have one). Future Darwin award winner.



I thought he might be giving “astrophysicists by trade” a bad name.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=mariomike] 

https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1244741298311114754
[/quote]

One viral tweet about free health care in Canada and we're probably going to wish we had soldiers along the border.


----------



## stellarpanther

It's not all Reservists.  A week or 2 ago an email was sent out to everyone asking if they would be available if needed.  My son and others that are in school were told school should be their priority right now. Before anyone says schools are not currently open, I know that but they are still looking at other options to finish the semester.  
CoC's of Reserve units must be getting a lot of emails because my son received one a few hours ago saying that nobody is being ordered into full-time service. They are looking at the people who said they'd be available if needed. I could be wrong but I believe in order to force all Reservists to go to full-time, a National Emergency needs to be declared.  Trudeau so far is saying it's not necessary.


----------



## midget-boyd91

mariomike said:
			
		

> No more fire response unless the patient is dying,
> 
> "Effective immediately, all dual purpose response incidents with the exception of ARREST, CHOKE and DROWNING call types will be discontinued."



The entire province of NS has gone that way a week or so ago.  There are no dual response fire/paramedic agencies in the province,  but most FDs respond automatically as a secondary agency for calls where there medics are going code.  
About a week ago all FDs were informed that the only time we will respond with EHS is motor vehicle accidents where the medics require assistance to extricate a patient (jaws of life. etc).
This means that unless specifically requested by the medics responding,  fire, which is almost always the closest agency in NS, will not even be responding to cardiac arrests,  stroke complaints, traumatic injuries etc.
And this is in a time where there's often only a single ambulance available to cover fairly populated stretches of the province that cover multiple counties and upwards of 200km of highway travel.


----------



## mariomike

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> And this is in a time where there's often only a single ambulance available to cover fairly populated stretches of the province that cover multiple counties and upwards of 200km of highway travel.



Probably going to get busy(er). Call volume in NYC these days has increased to double the usual.

That's far in excess of Sept. 11, 2001.


----------



## brihard

Anecdotally I'm hearing that street drug prices have shot up in areas where there are tight restrictions, and that property crime (including some violent property crime) is picking up as well.


----------



## midget-boyd91

mariomike said:
			
		

> Probably going to get busy(er). Call volume in NYC these days has increased to double the usual.
> 
> That's far in excess of Sept. 11, 2001.



How long will it be I wonder before patients are being told that they don't qualify for an ambulance to respond.


----------



## ModlrMike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And the entire PRes is doing the same. Whats your point?



No, many of us are still fully engaged in our civilian work.


----------



## ballz

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Unless the QS has drastically changed since I took and subsequently assisted instructing on a few courses in 2009/2010, there's 2 periods (if I remember correctly) covering Use of Force continuum and its on the written test. My DS incorporated a few scenarios in which we had to apply it with us both armed and unarmed and the subject either starting at assaultive/deadly force or escalating up the scale so we had some practical training in its use. His scenarios were always VCPs/Checkpoints as that was the easiest to brief. Intermediate weapons weren't covered. Gave me enough confidence that I could detain a person using the proper legal force in a stressful situation if the need arose.



It hasn't changed. It's the same use of force continuum lessons that were/are also taught on PLQ / BMOQ-L courses (whatever they are called these days). Apply the Principles of Use of Force is also an IBTS, although it only has IS3 so I'd have to check but I believe it would not be part of the normal force generator annual IBTS, only "elevated" IBTS requirements for Force Employment.

It's actually 1x 40min period and then it's covered on the EC. The candidate is required to recite the levels of resistance and the corresponding levels of force to be used. On CQCI the same lecture is re-taught, along with a 40 min period on "human factors." This is then to prepare the CQCI to be able to "advise unit on close quarter combat."

If the instructors add some of that to the practice, good on them, but unfortunately it's not req'd as part of the CQCB TP.

It's also on the 10-day Crowd Control Operations Instructor course which I have never actually seen or heard of it running, but it does exist and I always wondered why it wasn't ever run. This course is interesting because you actually use some non-lethal weapons that are actually available to us such as M203s/shotguns (non-lethal ammo) and OC spray. One of the problems with our "use of force continuum" is that your typical soldier doesn't have a lot of intermediary tools between verbal commands and shooting someone.


As has been mentioned already, I would also suggest towards having actual police officers provide some use of force training... but the CAF tries to be completely self-sufficient so I could see CQCIs being tasked to teach this en mass which I think would be a serious mistake. The lectures are pretty simple but it's one of those things I think requires practice which is something we completely screw off... it wouldn't take a ton of practice to understand it, but the practical application of a number of scenarios I would think if vital to prevent a few catastrophic incidents.

I'd also align with those who have already stated that as much as possible, have the real police do the real arresting. Basically as much as we can free up manpower, enabling more police officers to do actual policing the better.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Weinie said:
			
		

> Melbourne-based Daniel Reardon thought he would try to make a _*sensor that could tell if your hands were near your face*_, he told CNN.


Even lower-tech idea (source) ...

Meanwhile, extremists gonna extreme ...


> White supremacist extremists are taking advantage of the COVID-19 pandemic to advocate for the theory of accelerationism. The theory states that participating in mass attacks or creating other forms of chaos will accelerate the imminent and necessary collapse of society in order to build a racially pure nation. A neo-Nazi media group that promotes this theory has encouraged supporters to incite panic while people are practicing social isolation during the COVID-19 outbreak, which includes discharging firearms in cities and putting bullet-sized holes into car windows.
> 
> A French neo-Nazi blog proposed “exterminating” immigrant populations and excluding ethnic minorities from receiving medical treatment while claiming that “the best remedy for Covid-19 [was] the swastika.” This propaganda is similar to others from white supremacist extremists that have attempted to blame COVID-19 on “inferior” ethnic groups while advocating for the permanent closure of borders.
> 
> ISIS has encouraged jihadists to capitalize on the fear, ensuing chaos, and stress caused by COVID-19 by conducting attacks throughout afflicted and vulnerable populations in Europe and the United States. Additionally, ISIS supporters have claimed the coronavirus is a “soldier of Allah” and encouraged followers to celebrate how the pandemic has harmed the United States and European economies. ISIS supporters have also alleged it is divine punishment against atheists, Shias, Christians, and minority populations in China, Iran, and Italy.


----------



## daftandbarmy

A choir decided to go ahead with rehearsal. Now dozens of members have COVID-19 and two are dead


https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak


----------



## tomahawk6

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Even lower-tech idea (source) ...
> 
> Meanwhile, extremists gonna extreme ...



Then there is North Korea executing anyone with the virus. A bit barbaric but that's how they roll.


----------



## mariomike

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> How long will it be I wonder before patients are being told that they don't qualify for an ambulance to respond.



An even more interesting question might be, "Who will answer the phone?"

During SARS, the concern at Toronto Central Ambulance Communications Centre (CACC) - the largest in Canada - was that one sick Emergency Medical Dispatcher ( EMD ) - or cleaner or technician - could take out the whole centre. 

The call takers and dispatchers were all in one big glass walled room - aka "the fishbowl".

The only communications backup we had for call receiving and dispatching was COMM 1, 
http://www.111emergency.co.nz/Ambulance/World-Canada/TEMS%20TeleComm%201.jpg

Meanwhile, how bad is it in New York?
https://twitter.com/CicciWillie/status/1244985226973020160


----------



## OldSolduer

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Well that's news to me!



To me as well.


----------



## Blackadder1916

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> USS TR stuck in port maybe a month for virus testing. Not only testing but it should be decontaminated as well.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-us-aircraft-carrier-could-be-stuck-in-port-for-almost-a-month-for-coronavirus-testing-but-the-navy-is-trying-to-cut-that-time-down/ar-BB11OezS?ocid=spartanntp



Commander of aircraft carrier hit by coronavirus outbreak asks Navy for more support
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/politics/aircraft-carrier-coronavirus-outbreak/?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial


> By Barbara Starr and Ryan Browne, CNN  Updated 11:41 AM ET, Tue March 31, 2020
> 
> Washington (CNN)  The commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, a US Navy aircraft carrier where an outbreak of the coronavirus has spread to at least 70 sailors, has "alerted" Navy leadership of the challenges the ship faces in trying to contain the situation.
> 
> "The commanding officer of the Theodore Roosevelt alerted leadership in the Pacific Fleet on Sunday evening of continuing challenges in isolating the virus," a US Navy official tells CNN.
> 
> "The ship's commanding officer advocated for housing more members of the crew in facilities that allow for better isolation," the official added.
> 
> A second Navy official said that the number of positive coronavirus cases on board the aircraft carrier had surpassed 70 as of Tuesday morning, added that the Navy expected that figure to increase.
> 
> The outbreak seems to be escalating rapidly, a week ago the Pentagon confirmed three sailors on the Roosevelt had tested positive and that number had risen to 25 two days later. Since then the number of cases has almost tripled. On Monday, a US defense official told CNN that a second US aircraft carrier, the USS Ronald Reagan, is also facing a "handful" of positive cases.
> 
> As of Tuesday morning 716 US service members have tested positive for the virus and the first military death was announced on Monday.
> 
> The San Francisco Chronicle was first to report on the commander's request for assistance, citing a memo he authored to US Pacific Fleet that was obtained by the paper.
> 
> "We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset — our Sailors," the commander of the carrier, Capt. Brett Crozier, wrote in the memo which has not been verified by CNN.
> 
> "The spread of the disease is ongoing and accelerating," he added.
> 
> "Decisive action is required. Removing the majority of personnel from a deployed US. nuclear aircraft carrier and isolating them for two weeks may seem like an extraordinary measure," he wrote according to the memo. "This is a necessary risk. It will enable the carrier and air wing to get back underway as quickly as possible while ensuring the health and safety of our Sailors. Keeping over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with those Sailors entrusted to our care."
> 
> The US Navy and Pacific Fleet did not verify the authenticity of the memo when contacted by CNN.
> 
> However, despite the large number of cases aboard, senior US military officials have insisted that the ship is capable of performing its missions.
> 
> "If that ship had to sail today for combat it's ready to sail right now if it was needed," Maj. Gen. Jeff Taliaferro the Vice Director for Operations for the Joint Staff, told reporters Monday.
> 
> "The appropriate measures are being taken for folks who have tested positive," he added.
> 
> The carrier is currently in port on a visit to Guam that the military has said was previously scheduled.
> 
> Crozier struck a more optimistic tone in a post on the ship's Facebook page on Monday, saying the "Sailors are in good spirits and are facing this new challenge with a level of professionalism that I have come to expect from such an amazing and resilient team."



At what point does this render the TR non-effective?  Or for that matter, if the infection pattern repeats on the Reagan?  While the souls on-board a naval vessel may be younger, fitter and healthier than those who might be found on a cruise ship (and there have been many good examples of infection spreading), the living and working arrangements of a navy ship make it infinitely more difficult to isolate.


----------



## dapaterson

CAF guidance on COVID-19 and APS has been released:

https://mobile.caf-fac.ca/canforgens/page.php?path=data/2020/049-20_e.asp


----------



## MarkOttawa

See what a property development company, owned by the gov't of Shanghai and active in Canada too (see end of post) has been up to, lots of photos:



> Chinese-backed company's mission to source Australian medical supplies
> 
> As the coronavirus took hold in Wuhan earlier this year, staff from the Chinese government-backed global property giant Greenland Group were instructed to put their normal work on hold and source bulk supplies of essential medical items to ship back to China.
> 
> A whistleblower from the company has told the Herald it was a worldwide Greenland effort - and the Sydney office was no different, sourcing bulk supplies of surgical masks, thermometers, antibacterial wipes, hand sanitisers, gloves and Panadol for shipping.
> 
> The company even posted its efforts of packing pallets in the company’s Sydney headquarters on social media.
> 
> "Basically all employees, the majority of whom are Chinese, were asked to source whatever medical supplies they could," one company insider told the Herald. This exercise went on for weeks through January and February, he said.
> 
> The entire accounts department, contract managers, the human resources team and even receptionists were sent on a mission to find bulk supplies of surgical masks, thermometers, antibacterial wipes, hand sanitisers, gloves and Panadol.
> 
> "There were numerous requests from the HR manager and even our direct reporting line [which] prioritised the assisting of the company in gathering these supplies over other work activities," said the source. The entire accounts department were absent for days as they were out purchasing supplies, he said.
> 
> In a statement to the Herald, the Greenland Group confirmed the shipment of medical supplies in January and February saying it "felt compelled ... to assist in efforts to mitigate the spread of the virus, which had caused a shortage of crucial medical supplies in China."
> 
> Greenland Australia supported the group's initiative "by arranging for medical supplies to be dispatched to China, which at that time, was the epicentre of the outbreak," the statement said.
> 
> The boardroom and meeting rooms of Greenland’s headquarters in Market Street were used to repack the medical items into boxes stamped with the company’s logo. Pallet-loads of the medical supplies were then sent to China.
> 
> Sherwood Luo, the managing director of Greenland Australia, posted photographs of this occurring on social media.
> 
> For instance on February 13 he posted on WeChat "#CombatCoronavirus, Greenland Australia is Taking Action. The second batch of non-contact forehead thermometers will soon take off to China! Coronavirus situation is serious, Chinese people, local and overseas, are trying their best, fighting together to combat the virus."
> 
> At this time China was battling the COVID-19 epidemic. As of February 14 Australia had only 15 known cases. It now has more than 2,300.
> 
> _According to a company newsletter, the Greenland Group sourced 3 million protective masks, 700,000 hazmat suits and 500,000 pairs of protective gloves from "Australia, Canada, Turkey and other countries_ [emphasis added]."
> 
> The newsletter also said, "Greenland Group Australia also organised the manpower and material resources to urgently purchase medical supplies such as masks, protective clothing and goggles in major Australian cities."
> 
> The Greenland group, which is majority owned by the Shanghai government, has sold more than a billion dollars worth of residential apartments in Sydney and Melbourne since its arrival in 2013.
> 
> Its flagship project, ‘Greenland Centre Sydney’, in Bathurst Street in Sydney’s CBD, will be one of the tallest residential towers in the city.
> 
> According to its website, the Greenland group says it has been consistently listed by Fortune Magazine as one of the 500 largest companies in the world. The company also claims that of its 23 ultra-high-rise projects under construction, four are among the world’s top ten tallest buildings.
> https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-backed-company-s-mission-to-source-australian-medical-supplies-20200325-p54du8.html



Website for Canada:
https://www.greenlandcanada.ca/about/

One sure hope our media and governments take a hard look into what they did here. But one has little faith they will and our gov't still seems fixed on up-sucking to Beijing.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## kkwd

Navy isolating sailors in Halifax as ships prepare to assist COVID-19 response



> The Department of National Defence (DND) confirmed Monday that two ready duty ships, HMCS Ville de Québec and HMCS Moncton, are in Halifax and the crews, along with a Cyclone helicopter detachment, are being moved to a hotel for 14 days of isolation.



https://www.thetelegram.com/news/canada/navy-isolating-sailors-in-halifax-as-ships-prepare-to-assist-covid-19-response-431509/


----------



## kkwd

'We are in different times': First COVID-19 death confirmed in Newfoundland and Labrador



> The man was one of 111 cases of COVID-19 in Newfoundland and Labrador connected to the Cauls Funeral Home cluster — the largest cluster of cases anywhere in the country. Of the 145 cases of COVID-19 in Newfoundland and Labrador, 75 per cent are linked to the two wakes held between March 15 and 17 in St. John’s.



https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/we-are-in-different-times-first-covid-19-death-confirmed-in-newfoundland-and-labrador-431622/


----------



## OceanBonfire

kkwd said:
			
		

> Navy isolating sailors in Halifax as ships prepare to assist COVID-19 response
> 
> https://www.thetelegram.com/news/canada/navy-isolating-sailors-in-halifax-as-ships-prepare-to-assist-covid-19-response-431509/



Already posted about it yesterday.




> Effective immediately - Grace period for National Defence Identification (NDI) card renewals amid the #COVID19 pandemic. Expired NDI cards will continue to be honoured. This policy remains in effect until 60 days after the coronavirus national emergency is lifted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/army_SM_armee/status/1244713887125159938


----------



## Weinie

'We are in different times': First COVID-19 death confirmed in Newfoundland and Labrador

Quote
The man was one of 111 cases of COVID-19 in Newfoundland and Labrador connected to the Cauls Funeral Home cluster %u2014 the largest cluster of cases anywhere in the country. Of the 145 cases of COVID-19 in Newfoundland and Labrador, 75 per cent are linked to the two wakes held between March 15 and 17 in St. John%u2019s.


https://www.thetelegram.com/news/local/we-are-in-different-times-first-covid-19-death-confirmed-in-newfoundland-and-labrador-431622/


I know it has been discussed here before, but this speaks to the asymptomatic, super-spreader, "Typhoid Mary" folks out there who have wreaked havoc, unknowingly, and unwittingly. Notwithstanding the "*** pain" that this is causing some, you may be KILLING people by flouting sensible and needed societal distancing...stay home, stay apart, stay safe.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *(US) Defense Department's coronavirus death count rises to four as infection rate continues to climb*
> 
> Four people affiliated with the Defense Department have died of COVID-19 as of Tuesday morning, according to the Pentagon's latest count, including a service member, a civilian, a dependent and a contractor, as the DoD's infection rate continues to outpace the U.S. population in general.
> 
> The service member, New Jersey National Guard Capt. Douglas Linn Hickok, died Monday.
> 
> Captain Douglas Linn Hickok, a drilling guardsman in Medical Command and a civilian physician assistant, originally from Jackson, New Jersey.
> 
> 
> https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/03/31/defense-departments-coronavirus-death-count-rises-to-four-as-infection-rate-continues-to-climb/
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-pentagon-idUSKBN21I01Z


----------



## daftandbarmy

Captain of coronavirus-stricken USS Roosevelt pleads for Navy's help

The USS Theodore Roosevelt was taken out of duty and docked in Guam last week after 25 crew members tested positive for COVID-19

Capt Brett Crozier warned that the outbreak is accelerating in a four-page letter to Navy leaders on Sunday 

Crozier asked to have 90 percent of the 4,000-person crew quarantined on land 

'We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die,' the captain wrote

He referenced similar outbreaks on cruise ships, including the Diamond Princess, where close quarters led to an alarming infection rate

https://mol.im/a/8172889


----------



## lenaitch

FJAG said:
			
		

> I don't want to get too deep into this because this question could easily be the subject of a full lecture. Remember there could be differing circumstances. The military could be called out under the Aid of the Civil Power provisions or under the Call out on Duty. These come with different bundles of powers and responsibilities attached to them. Under Aid of the Civil Power, the peace officer powers come with s 282 of the NDA (i.e. powers of constable). If called out on Duty such powers should be assigned with the GiC and may be limited to only specific members of the force called out. Remember too that not everybody deployed will be working in a job where peace officer powers are needed.
> 
> Note as well s 2 of the CCC
> 
> and QR&O 22.01 and 22.011
> 
> Read the notes to this too.
> 
> Note that the main difference between a civilian and a peace officer is that a peace officer has a duty to take action in certain situations where a civilian could walk away. This is why there are special protections for peace officers within the CCC such as s 25.
> 
> If a situation comes up where individuals who are called out may need to use force in their duties then Domestic Rules of Engagement will be issued which prescribe the circumstances under which the soldier can act and how to act/react. Remember that the chain of command may put greater restrictions on the use of force than the law allows.
> 
> In my experience Domestic ROEs are always very comprehensive and mission specific and like any other ROE are military orders being issued by the chain of command. They are not lessons on how civilian police do their job and are not an attempt to be a "civilian police force job description in a nutshell" resume.
> 
> Again, in my experience, instructions on Domestic ROE are always provided by legal officers who are accompanying the force to those individuals who are put into positions where the use of force is a possibility and who may need peace officer powers.
> 
> Situations var. When I was in Montreal in 1970 we all had peace officer powers and often were operating in fairly isolated post (such as guarding a major power line post) On the other hand in Winnipeg during the flood we did send out some security patrols through evacuated areas but when doing so they were accompanied by at least one civilian police officer who was tasked to do the arresting etc.
> 
> :cheers:



I've been enjoying this forum for a while but never jumped in because, well, I didn't think I had much to contribute.  I'm a retired police NCO (as we call it).

It seems there are a number of pieces of legislation potentially in play but they don't always seem to agree, so he's my shot at it:

Section 282 of the NDA gives military members "the powers a duties of constables", but that Part VI of the NDA (Part Vi - Aid To The Civil Power) only covers instances where a riot or civil disturbance has occurred or considered likely to occur.  I'm not sure anticipatory or preventative deployment would qualify.

The term "constable" is not particularly clear.  It is included in the definition of 'peace officer' in the Criminal Code, but that definition includes both "constable" and "police constable".  What's the difference?  I don't know if the courts have ever ruled on that.  I can tell you that the term "constable" appears nowhere in the Police Services Act of Ontario in relation to powers and authority.  It is only used to define the lower rank level.

It would seem that deploying military members to fill out police ranks sounds reasonable, but I think the wording of Sec. 282 of the NDA gets in the way, where it says _"but they shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers."_.  so having mixed military and police under me might not work under all situations.  Who directs whom and who is accountable?  As a former senior commander once said, 'who's in charge' should be a one word answer - me, him, etc. - not a paragraph.  Matrix management (management by committee) is beloved by bureaucrats because they can deflect, but when the poo hits the fan, courts, inquires, etc. demand unity of command.

The Act says military members have the authority of constables, but they aren't constables, so if a military member outranks me, what is my authority to direct?

Having a mix of military (with police authorities) and police could create strange situations (of course, everything works fine - until it doesn't).  If some event went south, I would have some people who are not subject the various oversights that the police are, such as the SIU in Ontario.  As well, every action that a military member took that resulted in an arrest would tie up a police officer, since access to reporting and processing databases is required, and they certainly aren't going to sign up a few thousand extra accounts to people who don't know how to use them.

There is also the federal Emergencies Act, which says that the police management authority of the provinces cannot be overridden, and that everything has to be consistent with the Charter.

Another poster point out that 'deputized' military members would have no authority WRT provincial emergency orders, which is quite correct.

Now, if I've pushed all the right buttons, this might get posted.


----------



## mariomike

Want to see how COVID-19 spreads across the world today? Just follow the flights.

https://flightaware.com/live/


----------



## Underway

WRT service members acting as peace officers, it would most likely be a case of a few soldiers and a vehicle or two backing up an actual police officer.  The police deal with the public generally or in difficult interactions and the military stands back and assists when necessary.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> Want to see how COVID-19 spreads across the world today? Just follow the flights.
> 
> https://flightaware.com/live/



But WHO told us travel bans weren't helpful and left wing media accused anyone suggesting it of racism. Unfortunately China's closed their borders with mandatory quarantines and its working.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> But WHO told us travel bans weren't helpful and left wing media accused anyone suggesting it of racism. Unfortunately China's closed their borders with mandatory quarantines and its working.



Yet with their closed borders the virus still spread.


----------



## dapaterson

For up to date information: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


----------



## kkwd

The current map of Canadian infections.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1


----------



## FJAG

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Section 282 of the NDA gives military members "the powers a duties of constables", but that Part VI of the NDA (Part Vi - Aid To The Civil Power) only covers instances where a riot or civil disturbance has occurred or considered likely to occur.  I'm not sure anticipatory or preventative deployment would qualify.



There are other provisions for other circumstances as stated above.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> The term "constable" is not particularly clear.  It is included in the definition of 'peace officer' in the Criminal Code, but that definition includes both "constable" and "police constable".  What's the difference?  I don't know if the courts have ever ruled on that.  I can tell you that the term "constable" appears nowhere in the Police Services Act of Ontario in relation to powers and authority.  It is only used to define the lower rank level.



There is no difference. "constable", "police constable" and "peace officer" are synonymous for our purposes.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> It would seem that deploying military members to fill out police ranks sounds reasonable, but I think the wording of Sec. 282 of the NDA gets in the way, where it says _"but they shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers."_.  so having mixed military and police under me might not work under all situations.  Who directs whom and who is accountable?  As a former senior commander once said, 'who's in charge' should be a one word answer - me, him, etc. - not a paragraph.  Matrix management (management by committee) is beloved by bureaucrats because they can deflect, but when the poo hits the fan, courts, inquires, etc. demand unity of command.



There is no "filing out the ranks". It's more a matter of augmenting. There is no joint chain of command. They remain separate and work through cooperation and coordination. The police cannot "give orders" to the military and neither can the military "give orders" to the police.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> The Act says military members have the authority of constables, but they aren't constables, so if a military member outranks me, what is my authority to direct?



Since a very large number of members in the military hold the rank of corporal and above most police officers would be outranked. Fortunately, for them, they remain responsible only to the police chain of command. 



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> Having a mix of military (with police authorities) and police could create strange situations (of course, everything works fine - until it doesn't).  If some event went south, I would have some people who are not subject the various oversights that the police are, such as the SIU in Ontario.  As well, every action that a military member took that resulted in an arrest would tie up a police officer, since access to reporting and processing databases is required, and they certainly aren't going to sign up a few thousand extra accounts to people who don't know how to use them.



Generally in situations where arrests occur, a police officer is present to do the arrest. In situations where there is no onsite police officer, anyone apprehended or detained by the military is at the earliest practical opportunity turned over to the police for detention and processing.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> There is also the federal Emergencies Act, which says that the police management authority of the provinces cannot be overridden, and that everything has to be consistent with the Charter.



You forget that generally when the military is called out, either on duty or aid of the civil power, it's at the invitation or requisition of the provincial attorney general. 



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> Another poster point out that 'deputized' military members would have no authority WRT provincial emergency orders, which is quite correct.



That's not in the Fed Emergencies Act quite like that. I presume you are referring to s 20(1) which states.



> 20 (1) Nothing in a declaration of a public order emergency or in any order or regulation made pursuant thereto shall be construed or applied so as to derogate from, or to authorize the derogation from, the control or direction of the government of a province or a municipality over any police force over which it normally has control or direction.



Depending on the circumstances that the military is called out under, and the duties they are to perform, I see no reason why they wouldn't enforce a provincial emergency order. That in effect is what some of our people were doing during the Winnipeg flood. Remember that while we run under separate chains of command, the role of the military is to assist the provincial authorities to maintain public order within their jurisdiction (which is quite a different idea from that of taking charge of the policing functions from the province) 

 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I've been enjoying this forum for a while but never jumped in because, well, I didn't think I had much to contribute.  I'm a retired police NCO (as we call it).
> 
> It seems there are a number of pieces of legislation potentially in play but they don't always seem to agree, so he's my shot at it:
> 
> Section 282 of the NDA gives military members "the powers a duties of constables", but that Part VI of the NDA (Part Vi - Aid To The Civil Power) only covers instances where a riot or civil disturbance has occurred or considered likely to occur.  I'm not sure anticipatory or preventative deployment would qualify.
> 
> The term "constable" is not particularly clear.  It is included in the definition of 'peace officer' in the Criminal Code, but that definition includes both "constable" and "police constable".  What's the difference?  I don't know if the courts have ever ruled on that.  I can tell you that the term "constable" appears nowhere in the Police Services Act of Ontario in relation to powers and authority.  It is only used to define the lower rank level.
> 
> It would seem that deploying military members to fill out police ranks sounds reasonable, but I think the wording of Sec. 282 of the NDA gets in the way, where it says _"but they shall act only as a military body and are individually liable to obey the orders of their superior officers."_.  so having mixed military and police under me might not work under all situations.  Who directs whom and who is accountable?  As a former senior commander once said, 'who's in charge' should be a one word answer - me, him, etc. - not a paragraph.  Matrix management (management by committee) is beloved by bureaucrats because they can deflect, but when the poo hits the fan, courts, inquires, etc. demand unity of command.
> 
> The Act says military members have the authority of constables, but they aren't constables, so if a military member outranks me, what is my authority to direct?
> 
> Having a mix of military (with police authorities) and police could create strange situations (of course, everything works fine - until it doesn't).  If some event went south, I would have some people who are not subject the various oversights that the police are, such as the SIU in Ontario.  As well, every action that a military member took that resulted in an arrest would tie up a police officer, since access to reporting and processing databases is required, and they certainly aren't going to sign up a few thousand extra accounts to people who don't know how to use them.
> 
> There is also the federal Emergencies Act, which says that the police management authority of the provinces cannot be overridden, and that everything has to be consistent with the Charter.
> 
> Another poster point out that 'deputized' military members would have no authority WRT provincial emergency orders, which is quite correct.
> 
> Now, if I've pushed all the right buttons, this might get posted.



Welcome to the site! We have a few of us on the job here.

I got curious and looked up Ontario. Section 55 of the Police Services Act deals with provincial emergencies, and expressly talks about the province being able to call out CAF and designate members as 'Police Officers' under the PSA. Same applies to the RCMP actually; Mounties aren't 'police' in Ontario for purposes of provincial law unless designated as 'special constables' (which some are). So S.55 PSA gives a very clean answer for Ontario. Not all provinces will have that. It's a very complex mix of jurisdictional issues. A comprehensive federal emergency declaration could sweep a lot of those problems off the table, but still...


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:
			
		

> Yet with their closed borders the virus still spread.



Not that I trust Chinese reporting at all, but the WHO is saying they stopped the pandemic dead in its tracks at 81K cases. They're now subjecting anyone entering the country to a mandatory quarantine (you're detained). I'm trying to dig up an article I read yesterday about how seriously they're screening people entering the country, it was described like a scene out of Outbreak. Meanwhile we're still not screening anyone landing in Canada properly...


----------



## garb811

Just read a tweet from the US Army boasting about how they moved a course from Basic in Fort Jackson, South Carolina to Fort Lee, Virginia by bus, with "social distancing" in effect. Someone questioned how that worked on a bus and the DCG of Ft Jackson replied, "...everyone had a seat to themselves.  Seats were wiped down by the bus company and then by the soldiers w/bleach mix.  Except 1 soldier who was allergic to bleach.".  :facepalm:

Google maps shows it is at least a 5hr 15m drive between the two bases...


----------



## Jarnhamar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Not that I trust Chinese reporting at all, but the WHO is saying they stopped the pandemic dead in its tracks at 81K cases. They're now subjecting anyone entering the country to a mandatory quarantine (you're detained). I'm trying to dig up an article I read yesterday about how seriously they're screening people entering the country, it was described like a scene out of Outbreak. Meanwhile we're still not screening anyone landing in Canada properly...



I feel like the WHO's credibility is pretty shot, especially with China. No?


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I feel like the WHO's credibility is pretty shot, especially with China. No?



Fair point, but either they've completely locked down the media (which normally we'd hear something if there was still issues), or all that racist border closing actually works.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

FJAG said:
			
		

> There are other provisions for other circumstances as stated above.
> 
> There is no difference. "constable", "police constable" and "peace officer" are synonymous for our purposes.
> 
> There is no "filing out the ranks". It's more a matter of augmenting. There is no joint chain of command. They remain separate and work through cooperation and coordination. The police cannot "give orders" to the military and neither can the military "give orders" to the police.
> 
> Since a very large number of members in the military hold the rank of corporal and above most police officers would be outranked. Fortunately, for them, they remain responsible only to the police chain of command.
> 
> Generally in situations where arrests occur, a police officer is present to do the arrest. In situations where there is no onsite police officer, anyone apprehended or detained by the military is at the earliest practical opportunity turned over to the police for detention and processing.
> 
> You forget that generally when the military is called out, either on duty or aid of the civil power, it's at the invitation or requisition of the provincial attorney general.
> 
> That's not in the Fed Emergencies Act quite like that. I presume you are referring to s 20(1) which states.
> 
> Depending on the circumstances that the military is called out under, and the duties they are to perform, I see no reason why they wouldn't enforce a provincial emergency order. That in effect is what some of our people were doing during the Winnipeg flood. Remember that while we run under separate chains of command, the role of the military is to assist the provincial authorities to maintain public order within their jurisdiction (which is quite a different idea from that of taking charge of the policing functions from the province)
> 
> :cheers:



Having spent some time in a few Caribbean Countries with Common-Law heritage that use the military in quasi-police functions, I would imagine if it came down to it, the delineation of authorities would be similar.

Jamaica is a good example of this.  The Jamaica Constabulary Force is the policing authority of Jamaica but the Military regularly conducts operations there in support of the police.

The general rule of thumb, at least when I was there and working with the JDF, the Military could act in support of and conduct operations and even detain people but any arrests required a JCF Officer be present and carry out the arrest.


----------



## mariomike

In New York, cardiac arrests are no longer being transported to hospital, unless they have had return of spontaneous circulation 
( ROSC ).


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> In New York, cardiac arrests are no longer being transported to hospital, unless they have had return of spontaneous circulation
> ( ROSC ).



Holy frig. Any idea what the ‘save’ rate on transported cardiac arrests is? Any way to extrapolate how many lives will be cost by this?


----------



## tomahawk6

The skipper of the USS TR wants his crew quarantined in Guam. Mark this ship as offline.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/captain-of-aircraft-carrier-struck-by-coronavirus-wants-sailors-off-ship/ar-BB11YOXd?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Yet with their closed borders the virus still spread.

Must've still had some domestic cases.  Huh.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Holy frig. Any idea what the ‘save’ rate on transported cardiac arrests is? Any way to extrapolate how many lives will be cost by this?



The decision was based on - If they can't be resuscitated in the field, they are unlikely to be resuscitated at the hospital. 

They are holding calls. The priority is to get the crew back in service for their next job.

It goes on to say, the body can be left in public view. There's a phone number to call for DOA removal.

No idea how long that takes < shudder >.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Brihard said:
			
		

> Holy frig. Any idea what the ‘save’ rate on transported cardiac arrests is? Any way to extrapolate how many lives will be cost by this?



I suppose if one drilled down deep enough, up to date Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest (OHCA) in New York City statistics could be found, however the quick and dirty answer is probably not a lot.  However if you are one of the individuals or their family who ends up meeting adjusted Termination of Resuscitation (TOR) criteria, that's not much comfort. 

Taking an unscientific/nonacademic approach (one or two stages above pulling numbers out my ass) to answering your question, in some comparative (and dated) studies of NYC OHCA, the overall survival rate was identified as 2.9%. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f6c0/13c927ddf6bab1280942866eb2476b6122bc.pdf

In a study titled "A comparison of the universal TOR Guideline to the absence of prehospital ROSC and duration of resuscitation in predicting futility from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest" the investigators stated.


> 36,543 treated OHCAs occurred of which 9467 (26%) were transported to hospital without a ROSC. Patients transported without a ROSC who met the Universal TOR Guideline for transport had a survival of 3.0% (95% CI 2.5–3.4%) compared to 0.7% (95% CI 0.4–0.9%) in patients who met the Universal TOR Guideline for termination. The Universal TOR Guideline identified 99% of survivors requiring continued resuscitation and transportation to hospital including early identification of survivors who sustained a ROSC after extended durations of CPR.


----------



## brihard

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I suppose if one drilled down deep enough, up to date Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest (OHCA) in New York City statistics could be found, however the quick and dirty answer is probably not a lot.  However if you are one of the individuals or their family who ends up meeting adjusted Termination of Resuscitation (TOR) criteria, that's not much comfort.
> 
> Taking an unscientific/nonacademic approach (one or two stages above pulling numbers out my ***) to answering your question, in some comparative (and dated) studies of NYC OHCA, the overall survival rate was identified as 2.9%. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f6c0/13c927ddf6bab1280942866eb2476b6122bc.pdf
> 
> In a study titled "A comparison of the universal TOR Guideline to the absence of prehospital ROSC and duration of resuscitation in predicting futility from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest" the investigators stated.



Great digging, thanks! So not huge numbers, but averaging close to once a day for the duration, someone won't be transported and will be TOR instead when they would have made it. But that also means that around 30 people won't be fruitlessly transported and consume the probably fairly intensive resources that a cardiac arrest would use up. Tough call, but understandable.


----------



## GR66

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Not that I trust Chinese reporting at all, but the WHO is saying they stopped the pandemic dead in its tracks at 81K cases. They're now subjecting anyone entering the country to a mandatory quarantine (you're detained). I'm trying to dig up an article I read yesterday about how seriously they're screening people entering the country, it was described like a scene out of Outbreak. Meanwhile we're still not screening anyone landing in Canada properly...



Started listening to a Ted Talk podcast last night with Gary Liu, the CEO of the South China Morning Post.  

He made a very interesting comment about the reporting numbers for Covid-19 and that there is no standard between countries as to what is considered a corona virus case.  My understanding is that in Canada, if you are tested positive for Covid-19 you are counted as a confirmed case.  In addition, a number of Provinces (including Quebec) include "presumptive" cases.  I'm not sure, but I'm guessing these are cases where the person has been assessed for Covid-19 by a health care professional and they are working under the assumption based on the symptoms that the individual is infected before testing confirmation is received.

Liu says that China uses a different standard for reporting their total number of cases.  In China, if you test positive for Covid-19 but are asymptomatic you are NOT included in the total count of cases reported to the WHO.  He says there are estimates that because of this difference in reporting standards that the total number of cases in China could be at least 30% higher than what the official numbers are showing.


----------



## ModlrMike

The difference between presumptive and confirmed cases is that presumptive cases have tested positive at the provincial lab, and confirmed cases have tested positive at both the provincial and national lab.


----------



## ballz

mariomike said:
			
		

> In New York, cardiac arrests are no longer being transported to hospital, unless they have had return of spontaneous circulation
> ( ROSC ).



Asking out of curiosity, trying to gauge the impacts / severity.

So the paramedics will show up and use the paddles and all that stuff, but if they can't get the heart to start beating again they won't transport them back to the hospital to try it there?

My grandfather died at 82 of a heart attack, it was a rural area and he was about 15-20 minute ride to the hospital. He already had no pulse when the paramedics got there, they worked on him at his house for a good 30 min to an hour I believe, but didn't transport him back to the hospital to try there, they declared him dead after working on him and left. Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out how what you are saying is different?



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Getting that Facebook content before they get hooked up on a 2-fer-1 ventilator,
> 
> https://twitter.com/notcapnamerica/status/1244741298311114754
> 
> No more fire response unless the patient is dying,
> 
> "Effective immediately, all dual purpose response incidents with the exception of ARREST, CHOKE and DROWNING call types will be discontinued."
> https://twitter.com/UFOA854/status/1244436031069466635



I'm actually more curious about the impacts of this one which seem like it could be more severe? Thoughts? Seems like there are a lot of things that could fall outside of arrest/choke/drowning that would be pretty severe. What about things like massive bleeds, allergies that risk anaphylaxis, etc.?


----------



## GR66

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The difference between presumptive and confirmed cases is that presumptive cases have tested positive at the provincial lab, and confirmed cases have tested positive at both the provincial and national lab.



Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## mariomike

ballz said:
			
		

> So the paramedics will show up and use the paddles and all that stuff, but if they can't get the heart to start beating again they won't transport them back to the hospital to try it there?



Please see attachment #1 Termination of Resuscitation ( TOR ) 



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I'm actually more curious about the impacts of this one which seem like it could be more severe? Thoughts? Seems like there are a lot of things that could fall outside of arrest/choke/drowning that would be pretty severe. What about things like massive bleeds, allergies that risk anaphylaxis, etc.?



and #2 "Effective immediately, all dual purpose response incidents with the exception of ARREST, CHOKE and DROWNING call types will be discontinued."


It's about wanting to go on paramedic calls - except during a pandemic.

The head of Winnipeg’s firefighters union will soon face a disciplinary hearing after calling for paramedics to stay as far away from firefighters as possible because of COVID-19,

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/coronavirus/virus-safety-remarks-put-union-boss-in-hot-water-569272752.html


----------



## MilEME09

Calgary fire department just switched to 24 shifts to limit spread between crews. 1 day off after the first shift and two days off after the second


----------



## mariomike

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Calgary fire department just switched to 24 shifts to limit spread between crews. 1 day off after the first shift and two days off after the second



On 12-hour shifts you report 20 times, every six weeks.

On 24-hour tours, you report 10 times every six weeks.

There are different schedule patterns, but that is how they average out over a six-week period.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

DLN news: as many of us only real task was to do DLN Courses.
From https://dln-rad.forces.gc.ca/login-lien/index-eng.jsp;
""COVID-19

ESSENTIAL TRAINING ONLY during core hours 07:00-18:00 (Eastern Time) Monday to Friday
As a result of COVID-19 and associated DWAN restrictions there is a higher volume of Internet connections to the DLN LMS. This is causing performance issues. Note that the system performance when connected from the DWAN is normal.
To try to mitigate performance issues we ask that DLN LMS Internet usage be limited to Mission Critical/Operational requirements between the hours of 07:00  18:00 (Eastern Time). All other non-essential DLN LMS courses can be accessed after 18:00 (Eastern Time) or during the weekend.
Date: 2020-03-31
"


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> Please see attachment for the advisory issued yesterday.



Good catch, you beat me to finding the advisory.  An interesting discussion point.  Some of the other protocols/advisories at The Regional Emergency Medical Services Council of New York City website may be of interest.  http://www.nycremsco.org/2020-remac-advisories/


----------



## Haggis

Travel checks are now in place between Québec and other jurisdictions.


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Good catch, you beat me to finding the advisory.  An interesting discussion point.  Some of the other protocols/advisories at The Regional Emergency Medical Services Council of New York City website may be of interest.  http://www.nycremsco.org/2020-remac-advisories/



It's the stigma. And, the risk of bringing your work home to your family that gets to you.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *COVID-19 measures could be in place for 12 weeks, Toronto's top doctor says*
> 
> Toronto’s medical officer of health says that measures adopted by the city to combat the spread of COVID-19 could be in place for months.
> 
> “Based on the experiences of other jurisdictions, it is my belief that these measures may need to be in place for up to 12 weeks,” Dr. Eileen de Villa said at a news conference on Wednesday morning.
> 
> “But I would tell you that how long these measures need to be in place, how successful we are in terms of controlling virus spread is entirely in our hands.”
> 
> “The more we can, as Torontontians, rally together for the next 12 weeks to comply with these measures, the more we can make it through this challenge and protect ourselves, our loved ones and our entire city."
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/covid-19-measures-could-be-in-place-for-12-weeks-toronto-s-top-doctor-says-1.4877423


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post:



> COVID-19: Chicoms Lied; People Died
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 and the Dragon’s Foul Breath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the following Bloomberg story has probably been leaked now as cover for the Trump administration’s lack of preparedness but is nonetheless almost certainly true...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/01/covid-19-chicoms-lied-people-died/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## daftandbarmy

From the Lancet.... we need more of that 'tough love leadership', at the national level, across the globe...

How will country-based mitigation measures influence the course of the COVID-19 epidemic?

Governments will not be able to minimise both deaths from coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) and the economic impact of viral spread. Keeping mortality as low as possible will be the highest priority for individuals; hence governments must put in place measures to ameliorate the inevitable economic downturn. In our view, COVID-19 has developed into a pandemic, with small chains of transmission in many countries and large chains resulting in extensive spread in a few countries, such as Italy, Iran, South Korea, and Japan.

Most countries are likely to have spread of COVID-19, at least in the early stages, before any mitigation measures have an impact.
What has happened in China shows that quarantine, social distancing, and isolation of infected populations can contain the epidemic.

This impact of the COVID-19 response in China is encouraging for the many countries where COVID-19 is beginning to spread. However, it is unclear whether other countries can implement the stringent measures China eventually adopted. Singapore and Hong Kong, both of which had severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) epidemics in 2002–03, provide hope and many lessons to other countries. In both places, COVID-19 has been managed well to date, despite early cases, by early government action and through social distancing measures taken by individuals.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30567-5/fulltext


----------



## mariomike

Regarding those non-transports,

NYPD unit will give Detectives 60 + hours of OT a month. What unit is it? It is the dead body retrieval unit for Coronavirus victims.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/01/nypd-creating-doa-teams-to-collect-bodies-of-coronavirus-victims/


----------



## tomahawk6

The USN is moving sailors from TR into hotel rooms.Due to the weapons and nuclear power someone has to remain behind.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nearly-3000-sailors-to-leave-carrier-amid-virus-outbreak/ar-BB122iWu?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Navy_Pete

One interesting after affect is this is causing govs to examine supply chains; can see a lot of things like this being made domestically again, which is generally good news, as should be able to be done reasonably efficient if we are smart enough to have a Canadian manufacturer supply all the provinces with essential consumables like masks and gowns.

from https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates/canada-searching-masks-international-1.5517276

*Canadian government shopping for high-demand N95 masks on the international market

With no factory in Canada, domestic production of N95 masks is still months away*



> With no domestic production of crucial N95 masks for health-care workers on the COVID-19 front lines, Canada's federal government is bulk-buying tens of millions of them on the international market to meet short-term demand.
> 
> The Trudeau government's announcement Tuesday that it will spend up to $2 billion to procure personal protective equipment — including more than 60 million N95 masks — comes weeks into a global pandemic and raises questions about Canada's emergency preparedness.
> 
> Health care workers around the country say they have been rationing the protective N95 masks while they wait for stocks to be replenished.
> 
> Because there are currently no domestic manufacturers of N95 masks, pressure put on the global supply by the coronavirus pandemic has left Canada in a precarious position.
> 
> Only medical masks such as those labelled N95, sometimes called respirators, are designed and fitted to filter out the tiny aerosol particles that carry the novel coronavirus. Other masks, such as surgical masks, are looser fitting and made of material that may reduce only some aerosol particles.
> 
> Public Services and Procurement Minister Anita Anand said Tuesday that the federal government is "aggressively buying in bulk from all available suppliers and distributors."
> 
> The same day, Quebec Premier François Legault said protective equipment for hospitals, including masks, was just days away from running out.
> Call for domestic production went out 11 days ago
> 
> The government said Tuesday that it has inked deals with three Canadian companies — Thornhill Medical, Medicom and Spartan Bioscience — to make ventilators, surgical masks, test kits and other items, but the more than 60 million N95 masks it has ordered are all coming from foreign suppliers.
> 
> Anand said deliveries will start next week.
> 
> It was just 11 days ago that the federal government put out a call to domestic businesses and manufacturers "to help deliver critical health supplies."
> 
> Normally, local health authorities in each province purchase their own protective gear, but given the global supply shortages in recent weeks, the provincial ministries and now the federal government have had to step in.
> Last Friday, Health Canada told CBC News that the Public Health Agency of Canada was deploying N95 masks and other protective gear from the national emergency strategic stockpile.
> 
> Ontario Premier Doug Ford said last week in a radio interview that the province was working with an automotive supply company — Woodbridge — in Mississauga, Ont., on production of N95 masks, because a world-leading supplier, the multi-national corporation 3M, was swamped with international orders.
> 3M not manufacturing N95 masks in Canada
> 
> According to St. Paul, Minn.-based 3M's website, the company is currently producing 100 million N95 masks a month globally. Much of that production is in Aberdeen, S.D. Its subsidiary, 3M Canada, has several manufacturing plants in this country, but according to an online statement, the company does not manufacture N95 masks in any of its Canadian facilities.
> 
> CBC News contacted 3M Canada president Penny Wise on Monday to ask whether the company would retool any of its Canadian factories to meet demand in Canada. Wise's office did not answer the question, saying instead that the company had doubled the amount of N95 masks brought into the country during the first three months of 2020.
> 
> Wise did not say how many masks that is.
> 
> The federal government announced Tuesday that it "was in the process of finalizing an agreement" with the Montreal-based protective equipment manufacturer Medicom to start N95 and surgical mask production in Canada.
> 
> "We need a sustainable, stable supply of these products, and that means making them at home, and we are optimistic that they will be available in the coming weeks," Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said.
> 
> Industry Minister Navdeep Bains said at the Tuesday press conference that the ability to produce the masks within Canada remains "a core objective of ours."
> Surgical masks only
> 
> But the proposed Medicom manufacturing site won't be up and running for months. According to the company, neither the location nor the number of facilities that will be producing masks has been decided. It is aiming to start production in early summer.
> 
> In the short term, Medicom has a separate agreement with the federal government to supply "tens of millions" of surgical masks only.
> 
> Medicom's chief operating officer, Guillaume Laverdure, told CBC News there have been no discussions in the past with governments in Canada about domestic production of protective masks.
> 
> "Manufacturing locally is more expensive than importing from China. That's a fact," he said. "So, in times where provincial hospital budgets are tight, there is a natural tendency to go to the cheapest possible product."
> Workers inspect newly made surgical masks at a factory in Hong Kong. (Isaac Lawrence/AFP via Getty Images)
> 
> Laverdure said the new paradigm is that governments are willing to pay a little more as long as they have access to products locally.
> 
> Health-care workers have been relying in part on corporate donations of personal protective gear to help bridge the supply gap.
> 
> The Canadian government has said several companies have donated personal protective and safety equipment and sanitizing supplies, including: Magna, General Motors, Toyota Canada, Ford, Linamar, Shell, Suncor, Alibaba Group and Home Depot


----------



## Jarnhamar

For those more knowledgeable people out there, does the timeline of this tweet appear accurate? I checked a couple dates and they seemed to check out.










The February 3rd statement from the WHO about not needing to limit travel checks out. Pretty asinine call by them. 

https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3048808/who-says-widespread-travel-bans-not-needed-beat-coronavirus


----------



## MarkOttawa

And a post on India and COVID-19:



> COVID-19: PM Modi’s Lockdown Serving to Spread the Disease Through the Very Poor?
> 
> There may well be some very tragic consequence to the BJP’s hasty implementation of this policy–caste or religion of many of the very poor a factor?
> 
> Nearly 600,000 workers migrated on foot during lockdown, govt tells SC [Supreme Court]
> ...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/01/covid-19-pm-modis-lockdown-serving-to-spread-the-disease-through-the-very-poor/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Altair

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/terence-corcoran-maybe-real-data-on-the-coronavirus-will-end-this-draconian-lockdown/wcm/09827bf6-151f-49ec-94fb-271840c84dca




> There appears to be only one basis for hope that the current near-shutdown of the Canadian economy will end sooner rather than later: real data. Not headline deaths, ominous epidemiological models or robotic prime ministerial talking points, but real statistics about the number of Canadians who have contracted the coronavirus, how many are now safe, and the death rate associated with the virus.
> 
> 
> Governments and the media are expert tabulators of the frightening numbers of people infected and the proportion of those who die. As of midday Tuesday, Canada had reported 8,467 COVID-19 cases and 95 related deaths. Globally, 837,000 cases have been reported with 41,000 deaths. Total cases in the U.S exceed 176,000 with 3,400 deaths.
> 
> 
> The death rates associated with those numbers are high: 1.1 per cent for Canada, 4.8 per cent globally and 1.9 per cent in the U.S. But without firm data on the number of infected people who recover without ever being officially diagnosed, the statistics are preliminary and superficial. They are based on limited and inadequate testing of Canadians and of people all over the world. And until we address that, the current unprecedented experiment in state control over normal social and economic activity will not be lifted.
> 
> 
> The inadequacy of the existing data was acknowledged recently by Mona Nemer, Canada’s Chief Science Advisor, who said the lack of ability to test leaves Canada’s data “severely compromised” and that “data is at the heart of this fight against the virus.” In a weekend interview with CBC Radio’s Quirks and Quarks science show, Nemer highlighted the huge gaps in Canadian COVID-19 statistics on two fronts. First, the system for identifying cases “is not set up to do the tests.” The current test rate of 10,000 a day needs to be tripled, she said, especially as the virus spreads toward what is believed to be a looming peak.
> 
> 
> Second, Canada has not begun the all-important sampling of all Canadians, including those who are or seem unaffected by COVID-19. That’s a different but simple — and available — blood test that Nemer said is essential to understanding the lethality of the virus.
> 
> 
> More accurate data on COVID-19 can be obtained by simply drawing blood from a range of Canadians, from the healthy to the sick. The blood tests, she said, “can tell us whether someone has been exposed to the virus and has developed immunity. This is very important to allow us to determine how many people have been infected and recovered.”
> 
> 
> More importantly, perhaps, the immunity test, which Nemer said should be ready “shortly,”  will help policy-makers evaluate the policies they are rolling out to manage the pandemic. The blood tests, said Nemer, “will allow us also to calculate more accurately the fatality rate from this virus. Many experts believe the fatality rate is actually overestimated because we are testing only individuals who are showing symptoms. But we know that many are infected but do not show any symptoms.” Nemer said Canada needs to randomly test at least one per cent of the population — more than 300,000 Canadians — to get an accurate reading on whether COVID-19 is as lethal as the headline numbers suggest.
> 
> 
> Nemer’s observations are right at the centre of a global clash of scientists over COVID-19 data and estimates of the seriousness of the pandemic. Why is the German fatality rate of less one per cent so low compared with 10 per cent in Italy and Spain? It may reflect a better health-care system, or local societal or environmental factors that left Italians and Spaniards at greater risk. It may also be that better and early testing in Germany delivered a more accurate COVID risk profile.
> 
> 
> The science data clash erupted in the U.K. after media reported on an Oxford University paper that suggested as many as half the population of the U.K. may have already been infected by COVID-19, a number that would drastically reduce the fatality rate. In the paper itself, eight authors acknowledge their work as preliminary but they say their assessment of the COVID-19 epidemic is that there was already considerable spread in the U.K. population and that, accordingly, the fatality rate will be much lower than realized.
> 
> 
> The Oxford paper reaches the same conclusion as Canada’s science adviser. It calls for the “urgent development and assessment” of tests to determine the degree of immunity in the population. “These data will be critical to the proper assessment of the effects of social distancing and other measures currently being adopted to slow the case instances and for informing future policy direction.” The Oxford research was instantly attacked by commentators and at the competing Imperial College London, whose scientists have more aggressive interpretations of the existing data and the probable fatality rates.
> 
> 
> But that’s the nature of science, especially epidemiology that depends on models and interpretations of data that, in the case of COVID-19, is preliminary and subject to dramatic change — which is why the advice from Canada’s chief scientist is crucial.
> 
> 
> Only when we get this critical data on the virus will Canadians — and the rest of the world — know how much disruption to routine social and economic life is necessary, and when we can put an end to draconian government intervention.




Some perspective.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> , does the timeline of this tweet appear accurate?



Do have a link for the tweet?


----------



## ModlrMike

It appears that we now have three out of six ERs with COVID positive staff. Huge shortages of staff. It can only get worse. In the meantime, Samuel L Jackson has some advice for all of us:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUakLzaboMo


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Do have a link for the tweet?



That was a few rabbit holes ago I'm afraid. 

Edit for spelling


----------



## Weinie

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That was a few rabbit holes ago in afraid.


What are you trying to say?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Weinie said:
			
		

> What are you trying to say?


I don't have the source of the link handy.


----------



## mariomike

New York crematoriums now running 24 / 7.
https://twitter.com/chayesmatthew/status/1245491292668334081


----------



## lenaitch

Brihard said:
			
		

> Welcome to the site! We have a few of us on the job here.
> 
> I got curious and looked up Ontario. Section 55 of the Police Services Act deals with provincial emergencies, and expressly talks about the province being able to call out CAF and designate members as 'Police Officers' under the PSA. Same applies to the RCMP actually; Mounties aren't 'police' in Ontario for purposes of provincial law unless designated as 'special constables' (which some are). So S.55 PSA gives a very clean answer for Ontario. Not all provinces will have that. It's a very complex mix of jurisdictional issues. A comprehensive federal emergency declaration could sweep a lot of those problems off the table, but still...



Probably the easiest first step, at least for the larger services, would be to activate their auxiliary units.  They are trained to provincial standards and familiar with their service.  They could also redeploy some of their HQ personnel.  Most might be able to find their kit and know how to use it.


----------



## PuckChaser

And to circle back on China fabricating COVID-19 numbers, Bloomberg has this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says



> China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths it’s suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials.
> 
> The officials asked not to be identified because the report is secret, and they declined to detail its contents. But the thrust, they said, is that China’s public reporting on cases and deaths is intentionally incomplete. Two of the officials said the report concludes that China’s numbers are fake.
> 
> The report was received by the White House last week, one of the officials said.
> 
> The outbreak began in China’s Hubei province in late 2019, but the country has publicly reported only about 82,000 cases and 3,300 deaths, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. That compares to more than 189,000 cases and more than 4,000 deaths in the U.S., which has the largest publicly reported outbreak in the world.
> 
> Communications staff at the White House and the Chinese embassy in Washington didn’t immediately respond to requests for comment.
> 
> “The reality is that we could have been better off if China had been more forthcoming,” Vice President Mike Pence said Wednesday on CNN. “What appears evident now is that long before the world learned in December that China was dealing with this, and maybe as much as a month earlier than that, that the outbreak was real in China.



Note measures in the article that Chinese officials are taking at their airports. Clearly they know exactly how deadly COVID-19 is, and multiple thousands more died than they reported so they allowed other countries to be infected (and seem worse hit) before they ramped up their own airport security to stop "foreigner carriers".


----------



## Jarnhamar

I can't imagine why China would fabricate numbers. 

Also China 

*Chinese Doctor Disappears after Blowing the Whistle on Coronavirus Threat* 
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/coronavirus-china-doctor-disappears-warned-about-covid-19-threat/


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Probably the easiest first step, at least for the larger services, would be to activate their auxiliary units.



Not sure about TPS, but NYPD Auxiliary is on stand down,



> NYPD suspends auxiliary policing unit amid coronavirus outbreak
> 
> https://nypost.com/2020/03/20/nypd-suspends-auxiliary-policing-unit-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/
> 
> The NYPD has suspended its auxiliary policing unit amid the coronavirus outbreak — pulling thousands of voluntary officers who serve as the “eyes and ears” of the department off the streets.


----------



## Spencer100

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> When the after action report is done I think the WHO will be marked as the villains along with China.



100 percent.  I think a lot of international orgs are going to see backlash. EU for one .


----------



## OldSolduer

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> 100 percent.  I think a lot of international orgs are going to see backlash. EU for one .



I think there's a lot of villains in this case. 

I'll keep my thoughts about the WHO (not the rock band) and the UN and to a lesser extent the EU under wraps for now.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Insane....

Stabbing of Asian-American 2-Year-Old and Her Family Was a Virus-Fueled Hate Crime: Feds

Federal authorities say a Texas teenager stabbed three individuals in a Sam’s Club this month because “he thought the family was Chinese and infecting people with the coronavirus.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/stabbing-of-asian-american-2-year-old-and-her-family-was-a-coronavirus-fueled-hate-crime-feds-say?via=FB_Page&source=TDB&fbclid=IwAR3pCvNVu7EZaBTn2KsN1W1mVHzyCBDc0XlFwXmRsapAxUNV0eDksXgpwio


----------



## daftandbarmy

Even more insanity...

Prosecutors: Engineer deliberately ran train off tracks in attempt to smash the USNS Mercy

SAN PEDRO, LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- An engineer deliberately ran a train off the tracks at high speed near the Port of Los Angeles in an attempt to crash into and damage the USNS Mercy hospital ship, prosecutors say.

The Pacific Harbor Line train derailed Tuesday, running through the end of the track and crashing through barriers, finally coming to rest about 250 yards from the docked naval ship.

Federal prosecutors allege train engineer Eduardo Moreno, 44, of San Pedro intended to hit the ship, saying he thought it was "suspicious" and did not believe "the ship is what they say it's for.'"

The train crashed into a concrete barrier at the end of the track, smashed through a steel barrier and a chain-link fence, slid through one parking lot and then a second lot filled with gravel and hit a second chain-link fence. It came to rest after passing under a ramp leading to the Vincent Thomas Bridge. The train remained in that position Wednesday.

No one was injured in the derailment, but the train leaked fuel that required a hazmat response.

https://abc7.com/usns-mercy-coronavirus-train-crash-derailment/6069395/?fbclid=IwAR3bzvhXsRmvcWp411N7fsHqjy5AnK6cMKcHgkA9FHeuAzVULyTgCWYdQFg


----------



## dimsum

Add him to the list of USN COs relieved of command in 3...2...1...



> The Navy won't rule out punishing the aircraft carrier captain who blasted the service's COVID-19 response
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Navy on Wednesday did not rule out punishing the captain of the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, who wrote a scathing letter to Navy leadership asking for stronger measures to stop the spread of the novel coronavirus (COVID-19).
> 
> In a four-page letter, the contents of which were confirmed by U.S. officials to Reuters on Tuesday, Captain Brett Crozier described a bleak situation onboard the nuclear-powered carrier as more sailors tested positive for the virus.
> 
> The letter put the Pentagon on the defensive about whether it was doing enough to keep service members safe and alarmed the families of those aboard the ship. Its home port is San Diego, California.
> 
> "I don't know who leaked the letter to the media. That would be something that would violate the principles of good order and discipline, if he were responsible for that. But I don't know that," Acting U.S. Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said when asked multiple times if the captain would be punished.
> 
> "The fact that he wrote the letter up to his chain of command to express his concerns would absolutely not result in any type of retaliation," Modly said.  In the letter, the captain called for "decisive action" and removing over 4,000 sailors from the ship and isolating them. He said that if the Navy did not act now, it would be failing to properly safeguard "our most trusted asset - our sailors."
> 
> "It's disappointing to hear him say that. However, at the same time, I know that that's not the truth," Modly said, adding that he did not agree with the captain that all but 10 percent of the ship's crew could be removed.
> 
> The carrier was in the Pacific when the Navy reported its first coronavirus case a week ago. It has since pulled into port in Guam, a U.S. island territory in the western Pacific.
> 
> About 1,000 personnel have been taken off from the ship so far and that number will rise to 2,700 in the next few days. So far 93 personnel on the ship have tested positive.
> 
> "It's important to understand that just because it's big and it floats and it has a lot of people on it, the comparison of the (Theodore Roosevelt) to a cruise ship pretty much ends there," Modly said.
> 
> "This ship has weapons on it. It has munitions on it... It requires a certain number of people on that ship to maintain the safety and security of the ship," he added.
> 
> The Roosevelt is just the latest example of the spread of the virus within the U.S. military. Navy officials said sailors onboard a number of ships have tested positive, including an amphibious assault ship at port in San Diego.



https://taskandpurpose.com/news/uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-navy-punishment?utm_content=bufferbbd9c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer&fbclid=IwAR0udRplnEZDUvWsHQ_rZ2em9g2nmc9k2SD1ekriqynVi09VkMX-iQod964


----------



## The Bread Guy

U.S. FDA:  Release the antimalarials!


> ... On March 28, 2020, FDA issued an EUA (Emergency Use Authorization) to allow hydroxychloroquine sulfate and chloroquine phosphate products  donated to the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) to be distributed and used for certain hospitalized patients with COVID-19. These drugs will be distributed from the SNS to states for doctors to prescribe to adolescent and adult patients hospitalized with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible. The EUA requires that fact sheets that provide important information about using chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine sulfate in treating COVID-19 be made available to health care providers and patients, including the known risks and drug interactions. The SNS, managed by ASPR, will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to ship donated doses to states ...


And the next day ...


> The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) today accepted 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate donated by Sandoz, the Novartis generics and biosimilars division, and one million doses of chloroquine phosphate donated by Bayer Pharmaceuticals, for possible use in treating patients hospitalized with COVID-19 or for use in clinical trials. These and other companies may donate additional doses, and companies have ramped up production to provide additional supplies of the medication to the commercial market ...


----------



## Spencer100

RCN is bring home their ships

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/coronavirus-navy-bringing-warships-home-earlier-than-planned/ar-BB125ilZ?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## mariomike

Rikers Island inmates have been mobilized to dig mass graves on Hart Island, just off the Bronx. 

Reefers full of bodies parked in front of your house,
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/new-york-refrigerated-truck-bodies.html?utm_medium=s1&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=nym


----------



## Blackadder1916

Doctors face sanctions for prescribing unproven COVID-19 drugs to friends and family, regulators warn
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/sanctions-canadian-doctors-experimental-drugs-1.5511244


> Regulators suspect some Canadian doctors stockpiling medications touted by Trump as possible 'game changers'
> 
> Timothy Sawa · CBC News · Posted: Mar 27, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: March 27
> 
> Medical regulators in Canada suspect some doctors have been stockpiling drugs that are being tested as potential treatments for COVID-19 and are now warning them they can be sanctioned if they prescribe the drugs to themselves or friends and family.
> 
> The drugs in question — hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin — are among a number of medications being studied as part of a global effort to fight COVID-19. So far, experts say evidence of their effectiveness in treating the disease is thin.
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine is currently used to treat malaria, rheumatoid arthritis and lupus, while azithromycin is an antibiotic for infections caused by bacteria and can be used in treating bacterial pneumonia.
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump touted the drugs as potential "game changers" in a tweet last weekend.
> 
> Since then, the experimental combination of the two drugs has been widely discussed and debated online.
> 
> Spike in prescriptions
> 
> As a result, several regulators in Canada have reported a dramatic spike in prescriptions, including of another malaria drug, chloroquine.
> 
> "Globally, there are reports of physicians prescribing chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to otherwise healthy patients for prevention of COVID-19," reads a directive from the Canadian Pharmacists Association issued Monday.
> 
> "This practice threatens the Canadian supply of these drugs and will prevent their use in the sickest patients, in whom the benefit may outweigh the risks associated with these medications."
> 
> Regulators in this country are also reporting an increase in orders for the drugs from doctors who list it as "for office use." Typically, such requests are from doctors who want to keep a supply on hand for future use.
> 
> They could be used off-label to treat patients, but there is concern those orders could also be used by doctors to treat themselves, or their friends and family who are concerned about COVID-19.
> 
> "At a time where resources are liable to become scarce, actions like [stockpiling and treating friends and family] dramatically depart from the core values of medical professionalism, may be in contravention of the College's [policies] and undermine the trust the public has in the profession at a time when they are most vulnerable," the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario said in a recent notice to doctors.
> 
> 'We wanted to act quickly'
> 
> The college says any complaints about doctors prescribing to friends and family will be investigated. The potential consequences range from providing advice to the doctor to referral to the disciplinary committee.
> 
> "We've heard some suggestion this is happening. We thought it was important to address it given the severity of the situation," said college spokesperson Shae Greenfield.  "We wanted to act quickly."
> 
> A statement from medical regulators in British Columbia issued Thursday made similar warnings.
> 
> "More British Columbians will become infected and tragically, more may die from this virus," says a joint statement from B.C.'s College of Physicians and Surgeons, College of Pharmacists and College of Nursing Professionals.
> 
> "This means the well-intentioned pressure from patients, fellow health-care workers, and even friends and family to help access these medications, will undoubtedly increase."
> 
> Except when there is a clinical trial, the statement instructs both doctors and pharmacists not to provide the drugs as a treatment for COVID-19.
> 
> Jim Giontsis, co-owner of Moss Park PharmaChoice in Toronto, confirms he saw an initial rush of orders for the drugs, including some requests "for office use."
> 
> "When [doctors] order it for the office, it could be for their patients, their staff or personal use," he said.
> 
> "We have to limit that now. We have limited supply now. We need to be very careful now to try to be fair to everyone."
> 
> 'Very serious shortage'
> 
> The increased demand has already led to shortages for patients needing the drugs to treat other diseases.
> 
> A joint directive from medical associations in Ontario issued Monday says they are now facing a "very serious shortage" of hydroxychloroquine.
> 
> "This presents very serious challenges for long-term continuity of care for patients suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and lupus," says the directive from Ontario's Pharmacists Association, Medical Association and Registered Nurses' Association.
> 
> The statement also says there is a "serious lack of evidence" for using the experimental drug to treat COVID-19 and warns about the potential side-effects, which can include heart damage.
> 
> "Our patients expect us to protect them to the best of our abilities, and with all health professions rallying together, we will ensure that our patients are well cared for and that their confidence in us — and in the drug supply — is well founded."


----------



## MilEME09

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/forces-mobalized-fight-coronavirus-1.5518503?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar&fbclid=IwAR0ORZXRqahMcxYE0NvhrWBwKWE4Yt15iNmBMPh0WpneNDqKIZVi14-8Ly4



> It will be about a week before the Canadian military has mobilized all the reservists needed to fight COVID-19 and there will be strict legal limitations on what they can do, a senior defence source tells CBC News.
> 
> The part-time soldiers, who are being converted to full-time status, will be used primarily for community-based humanitarian operations, as needed.
> 
> "This is not for enforcement stuff," said the source, who spoke on background because of the sensitivity of the file. "There is a line between what they can and cannot do."
> 
> Should a province require quarantine enforcement — or some kind of armed reinforcement of local police — that job would only be carried out by regular force troops, who are already mobilized and make up about three-quarters of the 24,000 personnel set to deal with COVID-19.
> 
> Under the law, members of the reserve force are not allowed to carry out armed operations on Canadian soil.
> 
> The biggest fear of defence planners, however, is that there will be some kind of natural disaster — or a series of them — as troops are responding to coronavirus-related emergencies. The Armed Forces has during the last few years helped flood-ravaged communities and assisted provincial forest services beat back wildfire.
> 
> In fighting COVID-19, it is envisioned the reservists will focus on helping villages, towns and perhaps even cities maintain critical supply lines.
> 
> The reservists are being called up until the end of August.



love it when anonymous sources decide they can be public affairs.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The biggest fear of defence planners, however, is that there will be some kind of natural disaster — or a series of them — as troops are responding to coronavirus-related emergencies.



And here I assumed the biggest fear would be unauthorized morale patches.




Article's in french.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1690419/masques-canada-chine-quebec-avion-detournes
Our good buddies the Americans are paying to have medical supplies destined for other countries (like Canada) rerouted to them.


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/forces-mobalized-fight-coronavirus-1.5518503?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar&fbclid=IwAR0ORZXRqahMcxYE0NvhrWBwKWE4Yt15iNmBMPh0WpneNDqKIZVi14-8Ly4
> 
> love it when anonymous sources decide they can be public affairs.



That was pretty cringeworthy.



> Under the law, members of the reserve force are not allowed to carry out armed operations on Canadian soil.



Anyone got something to this purported section of law? It's news to me. S.273.6 NDA (assistance to law enforcement) doesn't draw any distinction in which component of CAF can assist law enforcement, and neither to the AOCP provisions. Might someone be talking out of their arse and mistaking 'the plan is' with 'the law says'?


----------



## PuckChaser

I can't wait to see how many reservists end up being AWOL...


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see how many reservists end up being AWOL...



Right now priority is being given to reservists without jobs due to lay offs. So they have no other income options, but they sign the contract, dont show, face the charges.


----------



## PuckChaser

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Right now priority is being given to reservists without jobs due to lay offs. So they have no other income options, but they sign the contract, dont show, face the charges.



So not a mandatory callup, just a make work program? And here I thought we were actually going to take the opportunity to test whether our Primary Reserve system could actually respond in a timely fashion on a large scale...


----------



## The Bread Guy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> love it when anonymous sources decide they can be public affairs.


People who can "decide" to be spokespersons, I suspect, aren't very likely to be in uniform - or necessarily bureaucrats.


----------



## daftandbarmy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So not a mandatory callup, just a make work program? And here I thought we were actually going to take the opportunity to test whether our Primary Reserve system could actually respond in a timely fashion on a large scale...



Just like the reserves have responded, admirably, to all the fire, flood, snowstorm and other disasters in the past, of course


----------



## PuckChaser

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Just like the reserves have responded, admirably, to all the fire, flood, snowstorm and other disasters in the past, of course



Yep, all the people without steady employment or not in school, etc. Probably the exact same faces on every exercise and training night. I want to see where the rest of the Regt, authorized as a Battalion parading as a Coy(-) are.


----------



## Haggis

Brihard said:
			
		

> Anyone got something to this purported section of law? It's news to me. S.273.6 NDA (assistance to law enforcement) doesn't draw any distinction in which component of CAF can assist law enforcement, and neither to the AOCP provisions. Might someone be talking out of their arse and mistaking 'the plan is' with 'the law says'?



There was no distinction made during the various iterations of Op CADENCE where up to 1000 Reservists were deployed, armed, to assist with securing the G8/G20 conferences.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Canadian auto sales plummet by ‘eye-popping’ amount in March

Canadian auto sales plummeted in March, echoing the dramatic slowdowns seen in overseas markets that were first hit by the novel coronavirus.

Total light-vehicle sales plunged by 48 per cent in March from a year earlier, according to an estimate from DesRosiers Automotive Consultants, which said “even greater sales declines” are expected for April and May.

“With provinces declaring states of emergency, Quebec closing down front-end dealerships, and many dealerships across the country voluntarily shutting down, March sales fell precipitously in the second half of the month,” DesRosiers said in a news release.
DesRosiers noted that “no brand came out unscathed,” with most seeing sales declines of between 33 per cent and 66 per cent from the previous March.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canadian-auto-sales-plummet-48-in-march/


----------



## daftandbarmy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yep, all the people without steady employment or not in school, etc. Probably the exact same faces on every exercise and training night. I want to see where the rest of the Regt, authorized as a Battalion parading as a Coy(-) are.



That's certainly what happens in some cases, although my experience has been that it's a pretty even mix.

Unless, of course, you don't count people like me, or other reservists I know who've put their businesses/ careers/ lives at risk to serve our country's needs when asked


----------



## mariomike

I guess some employers will be wondering if employees ( or their estates ) will be entitled to WSIB ( or VAC ) benefits for Coronavirus? That the presumption will be that the infection occurred in the line of duty.

Especially in the unfortunate event of Permanent Partial Disability ( PPD ), or even death. 

During SARS, WSIB did provide benefits to our members. Perhaps that set the precedent.



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Unless, of course, you don't count people like me, or other reservists I know who've put their businesses/ careers/ lives at risk to serve our country's needs when asked



Depends on the employer. Where I worked, other than the two weeks of Leave with Pay ( LWP ) every summer, 



> Leave of absence shall be granted to employees to serve in the Armed Forces during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada.
> 
> Seniority will accumulate during such leave.


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So not a mandatory callup, just a make work program? And here I thought we were actually going to take the opportunity to test whether our Primary Reserve system could actually respond in a timely fashion on a large scale...



I think i laughed too hard at that, CoC's are being encourage not to steal man power from essential services, primarily first responders, not joe the safe way guy. From my own witnessing we have plenty of troops ready and willing. With the fragile economy and mass lay offs, especially in alberta with the collapse of oil, many worry if they go, they will have no employment to come back to. That said I have told my troops under Alberta reservist leave law they are covered for domestic operations in it's entirety. Suddenly my entire section was ready to go once they understood they were legally protected.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I think i laughed too hard at that, CoC's are being encourage not to steal man power from essential services, primarily first responders, not joe the safe way guy. From my own witnessing we have plenty of troops ready and willing. With the fragile economy and mass lay offs, especially in alberta with the collapse of oil, many worry if they go, they will have no employment to come back to. That said I have told my troops under Alberta reservist leave law they are covered for domestic operations in it's entirety. Suddenly my entire section was ready to go once they understood they were legally protected.



I’d like to think all employers in Ontario would be on board fully, especially in these circumstances. Only time will tell.

Unfortunately, since employers can’t “legally” dismiss an employee due to conflicts with their service, there’ve been instances of them finding other reasons to let them go eventually. Most are good, a few not so much.


----------



## mariomike

For reference,

Reservists Job Protection Superthread 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/2552.500
21 pages.


----------



## BDTyre

As mentioned earlier, we had three guys in my section raring to go. None of them were picked. Not sure if it's because we are "on course" or if the unit had too many volunteers.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm not sure the wording but for the job protection piece don't a reservist have to be _ordered _in to work in order to be job-protected?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Isn't that one of the secrets to  leadership.  Never give someone an order unless you know he will comply.  While they maybe be looking for volunteers, every reservist who is on Class B or C service, regardless of his motivation or how he stepped up to the plate, is on such period of duty under orders.


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not sure the wording but for the job protection piece don't a reservist have to be _ordered _in to work in order to be job-protected?



No. Each province has it's own legislation although there are some variations although some of the wordings are similar. In general it does not require and "order" per se but generally that the reservists deploys "outside the country" or alternatively "inside the country in an emergency"

Generally no provincial legislation defines emergency in their respective Employments Standards legislation. That means you need to look into the province's Interpretation legislation (and they generally don't include it) or if that doesn't help then the relevant Federal legislation which might provide guidance and in this case that would be the National Defence Act and which defines an emergency as:



> S. 2  - emergency means an insurrection, riot, invasion, armed conflict or war, whether real or apprehended;



Long story short, for these call outs to assist with disasters (flooding, fires, viruses) , the provincial legislation provides no help. 

You can find access to the relevant legislation here: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/supporting-reservists-employers/job-protection-legislation.html

In short again; our legislation sucks big time.

 :brickwall:


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the number of deaths reported. Those are only the ones pronounced in hospital. 

It doesn't include the ones pronounced by paramedics outside the hospital.


----------



## BDTyre

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding the number of deaths reported. Those are only the ones pronounced in hospital.
> 
> It doesn't include the ones pronounced by paramedics outside the hospital.



The govt. of BC has been including those that have died at home (or at a long term care facility) in our numbers if they know Covid-19 was the cause.


----------



## mariomike

I was following NYC, as for now, it appears to be the epicenter.

I read this on Twitter - so take it for what it is worth - 



> On direct questioning yesterday, @NYGovCuomo (who's doing a damn good job) said that, err, no, they weren't performing routine c-19 tests on people who died.
> https://twitter.com/harlemedic/status/1245855772694601729



Perhaps due to the sheer volume of non-transport DOAs, and limited number of test kits?

I also suspect with "shelter in place", that some ( many? ) have died, but not yet been discovered.

Social distance? Nope.
Scores of men carry a wooden coffin in Brooklyn. 
http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-dozens-attend-funeral-brooklyn-20200402-yg6om57jnvglre6hapa4nkixzi-story.html

Pic is a possible coronavirus call in Patterson, New Jersey.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That's certainly what happens in some cases, although my experience has been that it's a pretty even mix.
> 
> Unless, of course, you don't count people like me, or other reservists I know who've put their businesses/ careers/ lives at risk to serve our country's needs when asked



 A few times for me.  1st time I was in school. The other times I was gainfully and had steady employment each time.  And yes it was a pretty even mix as well.


----------



## PuckChaser

You guys kind of all hit on the point I was trying to make.

Too often in the CAF we don't allow ourselves to train to failure. We're too proud/egotistical to allow any sort of failure, especially when it falls to the senior leadership to have to admit the institution is failing their unit/Bde/Div. It starts right at the 5.56mm pencil on the range to make someone pass and the FORCE test lowering the PT standard right up to changing the scenario on MAPLE RESOLVE because OPFOR is winning. We have huge institutional and policy issues with how our Reserves are structured. The CDS needs the intestinal fortitude to call the entire PRes in, with the mission command given to his Bde Commanders to exempt from service anyone who will lose their job due to lack of Provincial protections. The only way to get it fixed is to show MND (who should damn well know already) and the PM that there needs to be some big changes expedited after the AAR on Op LASER.

Until someone actually trains to failure, we're going to keep getting the short end of the budgetary/legislative stick. The sad part is we're too professional to actually allow the failure so we simply come on Milnet.ca and rant, serve our 25 years and release bitter and jaded.


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You guys kind of all hit on the point I was trying to make.
> 
> Too often in the CAF we don't allow ourselves to train to failure. We're too proud/egotistical to allow any sort of failure, especially when it falls to the senior leadership to have to admit the institution is failing their unit/Bde/Div. It starts right at the 5.56mm pencil on the range to make someone pass and the FORCE test lowering the PT standard right up to changing the scenario on MAPLE RESOLVE because OPFOR is winning. We have huge institutional and policy issues with how our Reserves are structured. The CDS needs the intestinal fortitude to call the entire PRes in, with the mission command given to his Bde Commanders to exempt from service anyone who will lose their job due to lack of Provincial protections. The only way to get it fixed is to show MND (who should damn well know already) and the PM that there needs to be some big changes expedited after the AAR on Op LASER.
> 
> Until someone actually trains to failure, we're going to keep getting the short end of the budgetary/legislative stick. The sad part is we're too professional to actually allow the failure so we simply come on Milnet.ca and rant, serve our 25 years and release bitter and jaded.



Yeah but this isn’t training. This is an actual op. Hitting real fail points in the system because more resources than needed are unnecessarily mobilized could compromise the safety and effectiveness of the force being deployed. Sure, it’s an unparalleled opportunity to stress test our assumptions about the PRes, but it’s also a very wrong time to be doing that. Let everyone involved to the best job they can at what is actually needed now to confront the real problems as they’re assessed. Extrapolate and AAR it to death later.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yeah but this isn’t training. This is an actual op. Hitting real fail points in the system because more resources than needed are unnecessarily mobilized could compromise the safety and effectiveness of the force being deployed. Sure, it’s an unparalleled opportunity to stress test our assumptions about the PRes, but it’s also a very wrong time to be doing that. Let everyone involved to the best job they can at what is actually needed now to confront the real problems as they’re assessed. Extrapolate and AAR it to death later.



Those guys who get recalled and can't show up aren't showing up for the voluntary recall either. You're not losing actual manpower but generating metrics to show how screwed up our system is. If we can only domestically deploy 5% of our PRes because of legislative failures, that's an easy fix. Its a difference saying 100% showed up for the callup of 30,000 dudes, or we got 30,000 but could have had 45,000 if you make a federal reservist job protection legislation.

You can't test this at any other time than a real event. If its not real, people are calling in "sick".


----------



## OceanBonfire

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> And here I assumed the biggest fear would be unauthorized morale patches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Article's in french.
> https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1690419/masques-canada-chine-quebec-avion-detournes
> Our good buddies the Americans are paying to have medical supplies destined for other countries (like Canada) rerouted to them.



When the time comes, "The North remembers".


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Just checked today's update from Worldometer. 1300+ new deaths in France - WTF!! US, UK, Spain, Italy not looking good either.


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Those guys who get recalled and can't show up aren't showing up for the voluntary recall either. You're not losing actual manpower but generating metrics to show how screwed up our system is. If we can only domestically deploy 5% of our PRes because of legislative failures, that's an easy fix. Its a difference saying 100% showed up for the callup of 30,000 dudes, or we got 30,000 but could have had 45,000 if you make a federal reservist job protection legislation.
> 
> You can't test this at any other time than a real event. If its not real, people are calling in "sick".



You are indeed correct, we are likely to fail this, not necessarily because we dont have enough bodies to throw at the problem,but because we do not have enough trained bodies to effectively handle the situation. Bloggins from the infantry can easily handle say helping deliver supplies to a remove community, but what about techs, cooks, etc to keep the battle group going? even the reg force is hurting there last i saw.


----------



## mariomike

> The 1,000-Bed Comfort Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 20 Patients.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-usns-comfort.html
> 
> Its 1,200-member crew mostly idle.
> 
> Only 20 patients had been transferred to the ship, officials said, even as New York hospitals struggled to find space for the thousands infected with the coronavirus. Another Navy hospital ship, the U.S.N.S. Mercy, docked in Los Angeles, has had a total of 15 patients, officials said.


----------



## FJAG

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Those guys who get recalled and can't show up aren't showing up for the voluntary recall either. You're not losing actual manpower but generating metrics to show how screwed up our system is. If we can only domestically deploy 5% of our PRes because of legislative failures, that's an easy fix. Its a difference saying 100% showed up for the callup of 30,000 dudes, or we got 30,000 but could have had 45,000 if you make a federal reservist job protection legislation.
> 
> You can't test this at any other time than a real event. If its not real, people are calling in "sick".



There are no legislative failures here.  Any and all reservists could be called out on service under NDA s 33(2)(b)



> (2) The reserve force, all units and other elements thereof and all officers and non-commissioned members thereof
> (b) may be called out on service to perform any lawful duty other than training at such times and in such manner as by regulations or otherwise are prescribed by the Governor in Council.



If that is considered necessary or not being done then it's a failure of the chain of command to inform the Prime Minister (through the MND) that it is an available option. My guess is that everyone in the CoC considers that it's not necessary just yet. (probably because they don't have a plan for this and, like most things we do, are winging it by waiting for the provinces to tell them if there is a need. It's the simple difference between being proactive v reactive)

 :cheers:


----------



## garb811

And showcasing the benefits of the integrated North American economy thing, apparently that's only ok in the good times.

3M says White House asked it stop exporting U.S.-made respirators to Canada


> The Trump Administration asked 3M Co. to stop sending U.S.-made respirators to Canada, the company said Friday.
> 
> “In the course of our collaboration with the Administration this past weekend, the Administration requested that 3M increase the amount of respirators we currently import from our overseas operations into the U.S. We appreciate the assistance of the Administration to do exactly that,” the company said in a statement.
> 
> “The Administration also requested that 3M cease exporting respirators that we currently manufacture in the United States to the Canadian and Latin American markets. There are, however, significant humanitarian implications of ceasing respirator supplies to healthcare workers in Canada and Latin America, where we are a critical supplier of respirators.”
> 
> The U.S.-based company’s statement comes following a tweet from U.S. President Donald Trump Thursday in which he wrote: “hit 3M hard [yesterday] after seeing what they were doing with their Masks…will have a big price to pay!” At the time, it wasn’t clear what the post was in reference to.
> 
> 3M also said Friday its staff “have gone above and beyond” to produce N95 masks, and that it’s cracking down on “unethical and illegal” price gouging.
> 
> We hit 3M hard today after seeing what they were doing with their Masks. “P Act” all the way. Big surprise to many in government as to what they were doing - will have a big price to pay!
> — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) April 3, 2020


----------



## FJAG

Why does this piece of Trump selfishness not surprise me one little bit?  :clubinhand:

On other news, ended our post-US self isolation and went shopping for groceries with all the other "old" people at 7:00 a.m. (anyone who knows me knows that getting me out of bed that early is quite an accomplishment in itself.)

More people then I thought there would be but quite a few wearing masks and everyone social distancing very well. Both Food Basics and Superstore have implemented extraordinary and efficient methods for keeping people apart and for sanitizing everywhere. Kudos!
Spent half an hour when we got back home sterilizing all our groceries. Who knew that the NBCW Officers' Course I took in 1971 would come in handy some day?

While no longer under isolation plan to stay in the house and work on the garden (luckily its still a bit early too get plants - assuming that they'll even be available)

Waiting with bated breath for Ford to tell us what Trudeau won't.


----------



## Halifax Tar

FJAG said:
			
		

> Why does this piece of Trump selfishness not surprise me one little bit?  :clubinhand:



Why should we expect them to manufacture masks for us; when they have a much larger population and problem at this time ?  

While tasteless, I cant blame America for wanting to make sure America gets its own goods first and foremost. 

When this is over we need to seriously up our manfacturing capabilities.  I hope its finally evident to all Canadians that our neighbour to the south is only friendly when convient, and will be expected to look after number 1 when push comes to shove.


----------



## brihard

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Just checked today's update from Worldometer. 1300+ new deaths in France - WTF!! US, UK, Spain, Italy not looking good either.



Worldometers had a note on that. Yesterday France reported 884 nursing home deaths these hadn't been tallied as france was only counting hospitalized deaths. Worldometer loaded them all on yesterday and as the data gets more granular they'll attribute those deaths to the appropriate models to fix the graphing.


----------



## Rifleman62

Trump's selfishness? A country with a population 10 times Canada is dealings with an American company. Shouldn't an elected leader look after his own people first? Watch Trudeau's 15 minute "briefing" with medias 2 hour prior submitted questions and Trump's briefing with experts. Compare. Don't watch on CNN a they edit, and do cutaways.

More about the 3M company incl video:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-emergency-official-3m-selling-masks-overseas

*Florida emergency management official says 3M selling masks to foreign countries: 'We're chasing ghosts' *- 2 Apr 20

The head of Florida's Division of Emergency Management has accused U.S. mask manufacturer 3M of shipping the critical protective equipment to foreign countries who outbid U.S. buyers -- even as hospitals and state officials desperately scramble to secure N95 protective masks for healthcare workers on the frontlines of the coronavirus pandemic.

Jared Moskowitz told "Tucker Carlson Tonight" Thursday that he discovered that 3M distributors were prioritizing foreign buyers after they refused to sell him the essential equipment. "For the last several weeks, we have had a boiler room chasing down 3M authorized distributors [and] brokers representing that they sell the N95 masks, only get to warehouses that are completely empty," Moskowitz said. "[We are] being told that our shipments are on cargo planes and the flights don't even appear. We are chasing ghosts. I just decided to turn up the heat and tell people what is actually happening in the N95 mask space."

Moskowitz claimed to have reached out to many 3M authorized distributors in the United States to confirm his suspicions, and said he was shocked to find American companies quietly partnering with foreign buyers at a time of national crisis. "They're specifically saying, 'Listen, we are sorry your order got pushed down, but ... there are foreign countries who do business differently and they're showing up with cash.'"

Moskowitz said he has a hard time grappling with "the idea that an American company is selling masks away from our hospitals, away from our doctors ... away from the real heroes on the front lines" and called for investigations into what he described as "criminal" activity. "I can't, other emergency management directors, CEOs of hospitals can't get this life-saving PPE [Personal Protective Equipment] because a company decided to make a globalist decision and not put America first."

Moskowitz voiced his frustrations on Twitter and said he was later contacted by the communications team at Minnesota-based 3M, who admitted to a "broken system" but stopped short of taking action.

"I thought perhaps maybe what 3M would finally say to me is that they have masks to sell me, but what I actually found out is even more frightening," he explained. "... Which is that the system is completely broken. 3M has lost total control. What I asked 3M is, are they aware they're authorized distributors -- U.S. companies -- are telling me the reason why our orders are being pushed down is because foreign countries are showing up with cash to purchase the orders ... not only did they not dispute it, [but] I asked them if they put out any guidance to prevent the behavior and the answer was no," Moskowitz added.

3M told Moskowitz that they had no stock to sell him, despite producing close to 10 million masks a day " I said ... 'I have money and I'd like to purchase some of those.' They said I couldn't, they have no masks to sell me. It's criminal what is happening." Moskowitz emphasized that his criticism is not directed towards the "workers in the factories at 3M who are working 24 hours a day to try to create this life-saving PPE. This is about the executives who decided not to put America first and it's going to have devastating consequences."

The official said he offered to pay "ten, sometimes twenty" times of the standard price of the masks, but was denied. "3M is an ice cream store that doesn't sell ice cream."

"Since when do we have a U.S. company that sells masks and I try to offer them money and they don't sell them to me? I have to go through their authorized distributors and their only excuse is that they don't have a perfect system. "I'm relegated to making deals with brokers at costs that are ten and sometimes 20 times the actual costs of these masks, [but] at the end of the day, regardless of the cost of this point, getting the mask is the most important and we can't even get them."

Earlier in the week, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said his state was on the hunt for N95 masks and called the procurement process "shady as hell," adding that despite ordering "so many," they only get a little bit here and a little bit there.”


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Nanaimo:

Nanaimo pulp mill ramps up production for medical masks, gowns

A pulp mill in Nanaimo is doubling down on the production of medical-grade pulp to make medical equipment, such as masks and gowns.

Harmac Pacific says that it is pivoting much of its operations into producing the refined pulp, made from Western redcedar chips, that goes into hospital bedding, gowns, face masks, caps and other medical supplies.

“We’re making a product that goes into medical supplies and we thought, ‘We’re going to do our part in this fight,’” said Harmac president Levi Sampson.

Sampson says that one of the mill’s clients, which makes hospital gowns and medical supplies, asked Harmac if they were able to double their production for their next order.

“When they doubled that order we thought, ‘We’re going to make sure we’re able to meet that demand,’” said Sampson. “So, we decided to stay working.”

Sampson says that the pulp mill is doing everything it can to ensure the safety of its workers, including proper physical distancing and regular disinfecting of workspaces and washrooms.

“Anybody that’s not familiar with a pulp mill, they are giant facilities,” he said. “We actually sit on 250 acres of land, so our workers are really able to spread out while still being able to work safely.”

Sampson says that while overall production volume hasn’t increased, Harmac has shifted its focus so that the majority of work being done is on pulp used in medical supplies.

“I don’t think our employees have ever been prouder than they are today to make something that is contributing directly to this fight against COVID-19,” he said. 

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/nanaimo-pulp-mill-ramps-up-production-for-medical-masks-gowns-1.4866245


----------



## brihard

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Trump's selfishness? A country with a population 10 times Canada is dealings with an American company. Shouldn't an elected leader look after his own people first? Watch Trudeau's 15 minute "briefing" with medias 2 hour prior submitted questions and Trump's briefing with experts. Compare. Don't watch on CNN a they edit, and do cutaways.



Trump briefings and Trudeau briefings are an inaccurate comparison due to Trudeau still having to live/work in isolation. The proper point of comparison would be the Deputy PM's daily at I think noon- that's the one with the other ministers and senior government officials. Trudeau's basically trying to keep Canadians chilled out with the broad strokes, the noon federal brief is the more technical one with more heads at the table. Essentialyl what America does in a single briefing, we need to do with two.


----------



## Weinie

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Trump's selfishness? A country with a population 10 times Canada is dealings with an American company. Shouldn't an elected leader look after his own people first? Watch Trudeau's 15 minute "briefing" with medias 2 hour prior submitted questions and Trump's briefing with experts. Compare. Don't watch on CNN a they edit, and do cutaways.
> 
> More about the 3M company incl video:
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-emergency-official-3m-selling-masks-overseas
> 
> *Florida emergency management official says 3M selling masks to foreign countries: 'We're chasing ghosts' *- 2 Apr 20
> 
> The head of Florida's Division of Emergency Management has accused U.S. mask manufacturer 3M of shipping the critical protective equipment to foreign countries who outbid U.S. buyers -- even as hospitals and state officials desperately scramble to secure N95 protective masks for healthcare workers on the frontlines of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> Jared Moskowitz told "Tucker Carlson Tonight" Thursday that he discovered that 3M distributors were prioritizing foreign buyers after they refused to sell him the essential equipment. "For the last several weeks, we have had a boiler room chasing down 3M authorized distributors [and] brokers representing that they sell the N95 masks, only get to warehouses that are completely empty," Moskowitz said. "[We are] being told that our shipments are on cargo planes and the flights don't even appear. We are chasing ghosts. I just decided to turn up the heat and tell people what is actually happening in the N95 mask space."
> 
> Moskowitz claimed to have reached out to many 3M authorized distributors in the United States to confirm his suspicions, and said he was shocked to find American companies quietly partnering with foreign buyers at a time of national crisis. "They're specifically saying, 'Listen, we are sorry your order got pushed down, but ... there are foreign countries who do business differently and they're showing up with cash.'"
> 
> Moskowitz said he has a hard time grappling with "the idea that an American company is selling masks away from our hospitals, away from our doctors ... away from the real heroes on the front lines" and called for investigations into what he described as "criminal" activity. "I can't, other emergency management directors, CEOs of hospitals can't get this life-saving PPE [Personal Protective Equipment] because a company decided to make a globalist decision and not put America first."
> 
> Moskowitz voiced his frustrations on Twitter and said he was later contacted by the communications team at Minnesota-based 3M, who admitted to a "broken system" but stopped short of taking action.
> 
> "I thought perhaps maybe what 3M would finally say to me is that they have masks to sell me, but what I actually found out is even more frightening," he explained. "... Which is that the system is completely broken. 3M has lost total control. What I asked 3M is, are they aware they're authorized distributors -- U.S. companies -- are telling me the reason why our orders are being pushed down is because foreign countries are showing up with cash to purchase the orders ... not only did they not dispute it, [but] I asked them if they put out any guidance to prevent the behavior and the answer was no," Moskowitz added.
> 
> 3M told Moskowitz that they had no stock to sell him, despite producing close to 10 million masks a day " I said ... 'I have money and I'd like to purchase some of those.' They said I couldn't, they have no masks to sell me. It's criminal what is happening." Moskowitz emphasized that his criticism is not directed towards the "workers in the factories at 3M who are working 24 hours a day to try to create this life-saving PPE. This is about the executives who decided not to put America first and it's going to have devastating consequences."
> 
> The official said he offered to pay "ten, sometimes twenty" times of the standard price of the masks, but was denied. "3M is an ice cream store that doesn't sell ice cream."
> 
> "Since when do we have a U.S. company that sells masks and I try to offer them money and they don't sell them to me? I have to go through their authorized distributors and their only excuse is that they don't have a perfect system. "I'm relegated to making deals with brokers at costs that are ten and sometimes 20 times the actual costs of these masks, [but] at the end of the day, regardless of the cost of this point, getting the mask is the most important and we can't even get them."
> 
> Earlier in the week, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said his state was on the hunt for N95 masks and called the procurement process "shady as hell," adding that despite ordering "so many," they only get a little bit here and a little bit there.”




Context is a wonderful thing. Thx for this


----------



## OceanBonfire

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Trump's selfishness? A country with a population 10 times Canada is dealings with an American company. Shouldn't an elected leader look after his own people first? Watch Trudeau's 15 minute "briefing" with medias 2 hour prior submitted questions and Trump's briefing with experts. Compare. Don't watch on CNN a they edit, and do cutaways.
> 
> More about the 3M company incl video:
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-emergency-official-3m-selling-masks-overseas
> 
> *Florida emergency management official says 3M selling masks to foreign countries: 'We're chasing ghosts' *- 2 Apr 20
> 
> ...



And FOX News is better?


----------



## Weinie

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> And FOX News is better?



No, but displays the same amount of polarization that CNN does, completely devoid of any semblance of objectivity as it cranks its' business model to serve its' base and ensure that they keep viewership high, and thus keep their ad revenue chugging in.

It has been interesting to watch this unfold down south. Neither right/left, Dem/Rep, or progressive/conservative in the last three plus years can stand on a soapbox and proclaim their rightness or the moral high ground.....but, as messy, untidy, partisan, and ugly as it is, it still is a democratic, albeit shrill process


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said:
			
		

> On other news, ended our post-US self isolation and went shopping for groceries with all the other "old" people at 7:00 a.m.



That's good. You can also "shop the aisles" from home, order , and pay online ( eg: Walmart ). 

Park at the designated area. Phone the number indicated from your cell. Don't get out of the car. Windows UP! Pop the trunk, and they load it in. 

Better yet, let them deliver to your door. $9.97 charge added to your order. 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> france was only counting hospitalized deaths.



I suspect they may not be the only ones.


----------



## Infanteer

FOX and CNN have morphed into infotainment, and have ceded their reputation as reliable news sources.  This is likely due to the popularity of the editorial portions of the programming, which saves the producers from having to loop the same news over and over again.

Stick to Reuters or NPR or something.


----------



## Weinie

Infanteer said:
			
		

> FOX and CNN have morphed into infotainment, and have ceded (abrogated/abandoned/been co-opted from)their reputation as reliable news sources.  This is likely due to the popularity of the editorial portions of the programming, which saves the producers from having to loop the same news over and over again.
> 
> Stick to Reuters or NPR or something.



Infanteer,

Not looking to correct here, but feel like it was a conscious decision, so perhaps my descriptors could be more appropriate.


----------



## Remius

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Trump's selfishness? A country with a population 10 times Canada is dealings with an American company. Shouldn't an elected leader look after his own people first? Watch Trudeau's 15 minute "briefing" with medias 2 hour prior submitted questions and Trump's briefing with experts. Compare. Don't watch on CNN a they edit, and do cutaways.



I suppose then It won’t be an issue if Trudeau the stops thousands of nurses and doctors that currently cross into the US to work shifts there.  We can sure use them here. 

It wasn’t explicit in his last briefing but the threat was there.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:
			
		

> I suppose then It won’t be an issue if Trudeau the stops thousands of nurses and doctors that currently cross into the US to work shifts there.  We can sure use them here.
> 
> It wasn’t explicit in his last briefing but the threat was there.



Absolutely not an issue from my point of view. Maybe a little more "Canada first" is what's needed from the people allegedly in charge.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> Context is a wonderful thing. Thx for this



Funny that this complaint is coming from Florida.  A place that has so far denied the severity of this or taken proper measures, refusing to close beaches and now allowing religious congregations to continue.

Now they want masks?


----------



## PuckChaser

Can't blame Trump for trying to look after #1. The US is getting hammered far worse than Canada in some areas, and didn't we give away 16 tonnes of PPE just before the virus hit us? Now we're upset because in a crisis, globalization goes out the window and national borders start to have a pretty significant meaning? Give me a break.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Remius said:
			
		

> Funny that this complaint is coming from Florida.  A place that has so far denied the severity of this or taken proper measures, refusing to close beaches and now allowing religious congregations to continue.
> 
> Now they want masks?


They made a mistake and now need help, how is that funny? Canada is no better when it comes to these things, and I beet the people down at the beach are Canadian snowbirds.
Trump is doing right by his people to help Americans. We need the same mentality here.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Sure is a lot of fault-finding going on these days.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> The 1,000-Bed Comfort Was Supposed to Aid New York. It Has 20 Patients.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/nyregion/ny-coronavirus-usns-comfort.html
> 
> Its 1,200-member crew mostly idle.
> 
> Only 20 patients had been transferred to the ship, officials said, even as New York hospitals struggled to find space for the thousands infected with the coronavirus. Another Navy hospital ship, the U.S.N.S. Mercy, docked in Los Angeles, has had a total of 15 patients, officials said.



This didn't surprise me.  It's almost a repeat of the Comfort's deployment to Puerto Rico in 2017 for Hurricane Maria


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/us/puerto-rico-hurricane-maria-hospital-ship.html


> Amid Puerto Rico Disaster, Hospital Ship Admitted Just 6 Patients a Day
> 
> By Frances Robles and Sheri Fink
> Dec. 6, 2017
> 
> SAN JUAN, P.R. — For an overburdened pediatrician trying to care for a child who was in pain, needed hip surgery, and was displaced from his home in the wake of Hurricane Maria, it seemed a godsend — a modern military hospital ship sent from its berth in Virginia to help with medical care in Puerto Rico.
> 
> But after days calling phone numbers that did not work and trying to navigate the admissions process for the ship, the 894-foot U.S.N.S. Comfort, Dr. Jorge Gabriel Rosado finally gave up. The boy is still awaiting surgery, which had been scheduled for the day before the storm hit more than two months ago.
> 
> “It was rough because there were a lot of people that could have taken advantage of all the resources the Comfort had,” Dr. Rosado said. “But there were so many steps to it. Most physicians on the island, even us, decided it was too many steps.”
> 
> The Comfort’s mission has ended, but it leaves behind questions about whether it was adequately used during a time of desperate medical need. The ship was prepared to support 250 hospital beds, but over its 53-day deployment, which included travel to and from the island, it admitted an average of only six patients a day, or 290 in total. An additional 1,625 people were treated aboard the ship as outpatients, all at no cost.
> 
> In many ways, the Comfort’s story is that of the wobbly recovery effort in Puerto Rico, in which attempts to bolster vital services have often fallen flat or become entangled in bureaucracy and politics.
> 
> Following public debate over the Trump administration’s initial reluctance to deploy it, the Comfort arrived two weeks into the disaster, after some of the medical urgency had abated. Its mission and capabilities were opaque to many doctors on the island. It lacked the ability to treat some important areas of need, and the complex referral procedures made little sense on a battered island with scant power or telephone service.
> 
> The result, combined with the reluctance of some hospitals to lose their own patients, fell far short of what the Comfort could have provided, medical experts said.
> 
> “They were prepared for anything other than the reality of Puerto Rico,” said José Vargas Vidot, a doctor and independent senator in the Puerto Rican Senate whose charitable organization, Iniciativa Comunitaria, supported the post-hurricane medical clinic directed by Dr. Rosado. “It was like a vision in the harbor. Everybody was looking at the Comfort, like trying to build hope. But in the reality it was very frustrating to get access.”
> 
> . . . .



That big white (honking) ship sends a very visible message of "the US Government is here to help", but when underutilized it sends a very visible message of "the US Government is useless".

I suspect that (similarly to what I highlighted in the PR story) the disconnect in getting a greater number of patients treated aboard the two T-AHs is "medical regulating" - the actions and coordination necessary to arrange for the movement of patients through the roles of care and to match patients with a medical treatment facility that has the necessary health service support capabilities and available bed space - usually done by a central authority. (want to guess what I had as a secondary duty more than once).  While military (especially the US military) health systems are very familiar with regulating, the nature of US civilian health systems (public, private, non-profit, for-profit, regional, competition . . . ) does not always lend itself to accommodating the easy transfer of patients.  However, it seems that at least rudimentary medical regulating systems are in place in NYC and LA so the utilization of the two hospital ships may improve.

https://news.usni.org/2020/04/02/patients-start-arriving-on-navy-hospital-ships-medical-officials-expect-more-transfers-for-care-in-nyc-la


> . . .  The ship is receiving patients transferred to the ship from other hospitals, a process that’s managed by a FEMA-led, multi-agency coordination center set up at the Jacob Javits Convention Center. That’s “to make sure that the patients coming aboard the ship are suitable for our environment, as well as – right now – COVID-19 free,” Amersbach said.  . . .
> 
> . . . Mercy is receiving patients transferred by the Medical Alert Center, a Los Angeles County-run multi-agency facility that coordinates all hospital transfers in the region. . . .


----------



## BDTyre

CAF being called up to Northern Quebec...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/coronavirus-update-what-you-need-to-know-april-3-1.5520103


> Speaking outside his Ottawa home Friday, Trudeau also announced the Canadian Armed Forces are being sent to northern Quebec to help communities there prepare to respond to COVID-19 at the province's request.


----------



## FJAG

mariomike said:
			
		

> That's good. You can also "shop the aisles" from home, order , and pay online ( eg: Walmart ).
> 
> Park at the designated area. Phone the number indicated from your cell. Don't get out of the car. Windows UP! Pop the trunk, and they load it in.
> 
> Better yet, let them deliver to your door. $9.97 charge added to your order.
> 
> I suspect they may not be the only ones.



I actually wanted to do that but delivery has been stood down at my store and the "pick-up slots" are booked solid (and I mean solid) for the next three weeks (They are operating though as I could see the store's shoppers putting together orders).

I'm due for a refill on meds though and will have the pharmacy deliver.

 :cheers:


----------



## FJAG

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Sure is a lot of fault-finding going on these days.



That's because it's easy to find.

 ;D


----------



## ModlrMike

Classic no win situation. He doesn't do it and his detractors say he's not doing enough, he does do it, and they say he's doing too much.

Interestingly, 3M has a factory in Morden MB, about 45min outside Winnipeg. I'm not sure what they produce there, though.


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said:
			
		

> I'm due for a refill on meds though and will have the pharmacy deliver.
> 
> :cheers:



I'm with Alliance Pharmacy Group for prescription and over the counter.
https://www.mroo.org/en/news/meet-our-partner-alliance-pharmacy-group.aspx

https://alliancepharmacygroup.ca:8443/

It is available in every province, except Quebec.

Saves having to go into the local drug store. 

If on vacation etc., they deliver to whatever address you give them within Canada.

 :cheers:

What I miss is the barber and RMT being closed.

And of course, Mandarin!


----------



## Rifleman62

Back to 3M.

Acting quickly and decisively:


https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/02/business/02reuters-health-coronavirus-usa-3m.html

*Trump Says 3M 'Will Have a Big Price to Pay' Over Face Masks* - 2 Apr 20

WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump slammed 3M Co in a tweet late on Thursday after earlier announcing he was invoking the Defense Production Act to get the company to produce face masks.

"We hit 3M hard today after seeing what they were doing with their Masks. 'P Act' all the way.' Big surprise to many in government as to what they were doing - will have a big price to pay!" Trump said on Twitter.

At a White House briefing on the coronavirus pandemic earlier on Thursday, Trump announced he had signed a Defense Production Act order for 3M to produce face masks. "Hopefully they'll be able to do what they are supposed to do," he said, without elaborating.

St. Paul, Minnesota-based 3M did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The company's brands include Scotch, Post-It and Nexcare, as well as healthcare products for professionals


----------



## mariomike

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Trump Says



Maybe the Trump stuff can go here,

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/132115.100.html
5 pages.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Back to 3M.
> 
> Acting quickly and decisively:
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/04/02/business/02reuters-health-coronavirus-usa-3m.html
> 
> *Trump Says 3M 'Will Have a Big Price to Pay' Over Face Masks* - 2 Apr 20
> 
> WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump slammed 3M Co in a tweet late on Thursday after earlier announcing he was invoking the Defense Production Act to get the company to produce face masks.
> 
> "We hit 3M hard today after seeing what they were doing with their Masks. 'P Act' all the way.' Big surprise to many in government as to what they were doing - will have a big price to pay!" Trump said on Twitter.
> 
> At a White House briefing on the coronavirus pandemic earlier on Thursday, Trump announced he had signed a Defense Production Act order for 3M to produce face masks. "Hopefully they'll be able to do what they are supposed to do," he said, without elaborating.
> 
> St. Paul, Minnesota-based 3M did not immediately respond to a request for comment. The company's brands include Scotch, Post-It and Nexcare, as well as healthcare products for professionals



That was yesterday. *garb811* already posted 3M's response.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Only 20 patients had been transferred to the ship, officials said, even as New York hospitals struggled to find space for the thousands infected with the coronavirus.

The hospital ships are meant to be used for non-coronavirus patients, but the number of patients is down (fewer accidents, fewer crimes, etc).


----------



## Underway

Briefing today from Ontario with charts, tables, and projections.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-projections-1.5519575



> "Had we done nothing, Ontario may have suffered 100,000 deaths," Donnelly said, referencing the province's physical distancing measures. "Thankfully, that is not the position we are in."
> 
> Donnelly said he understands these figures may seem "scary, intimidating" and to many, "unlikely."
> 
> But, he said, every year in Ontario, about 1,350 people die from normal, seasonal flu. In a bad year, 1,500 people die.
> 
> "When you think that the mortality of this disease is up to ten times higher, and you remember we have no vaccine, and we have no specific treatment ... then suddenly the figure of 15,000 becomes entirely logical and comprehensible."



Current actions have saved 1500 people's lives, continuing on this curve could save between 85-90 thousand lives.  Keep it up.  Stay inside.  

We are the frontline.  Healthcare is the reserve when the virus gets through the gap.  Piss in your hankies. _Hold the line._


----------



## Remius

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:
			
		

> They made a mistake and now need help, how is that funny? Canada is no better when it comes to these things, and I beet the people down at the beach are Canadian snowbirds.
> Trump is doing right by his people to help Americans. We need the same mentality here.



They didn’t make a a mistake in Florida.  They were negligent and continue to be so. 

perhaps I can acquaint you with the definition of funny in this context.

“ *differing from the ordinary in a suspicious, perplexing, quaint, or eccentric way : PECULIAR*
My car has been making a funny noise.
—often used as a sentence modifier
Funny, things didn't turn out the way we planned.”

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/funny

So yes. 

And just in case you didn’t know they are still allowing religious gatherings.  In some cases down there it means thousands of people. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/490908-florida-other-states-allowing-church-services-during-coronavirus

That isn’t a mistake.  That’s just plain stupidity.  And it is politics. 

To paraphrase the sheriff in that article: it’s a reckless waste of life. 

And yet they are complaining about masks being exported to a country that has an integrated supply system.  They can certainly look after number one .  I hope we do the same but they are being hypocrites and completely idiotic about how they are dealing with this. 

I hope that clears up what I am saying.


----------



## Remius

Target Up said:
			
		

> Absolutely not an issue from my point of view. Maybe a little more "Canada first" is what's needed from the people allegedly in charge.



So do I.  At least we have an excuse to do it now.  (Besides the obvious).


----------



## daftandbarmy

China Exports Rebound Even as Western Markets Face Lockdown

China says almost all of its major industrial companies have resumed production and that its ports are again running at near-full capacity after a two-month Coronavirus-linked shutdown.

The revival comes, however, as Western countries lock down their societies and economies in a bid to contain the pandemic, sparking disruption at key international seaports and airports and a fall-off in demand in China’s traditional markets.

Although the situation on the ground is changing day by day, some trends can be identified which are likely to continue, or in some cases be exacerbated, for as long as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to take its toll.

https://www.logisticsbureau.com/china-exports-rebound-even-as-western-markets-face-lockdown/


----------



## FJAG

Remius said:
			
		

> They didn’t make a a mistake in Florida.  They were negligent and continue to be so.
> 
> perhaps I can acquaint you with the definition of funny in this context.
> 
> “ *differing from the ordinary in a suspicious, perplexing, quaint, or eccentric way : PECULIAR*
> My car has been making a funny noise.
> —often used as a sentence modifier
> Funny, things didn't turn out the way we planned.”
> 
> Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/funny
> 
> So yes.
> 
> And just in case you didn’t know they are still allowing religious gatherings.  In some cases down there it means thousands of people.
> 
> https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/490908-florida-other-states-allowing-church-services-during-coronavirus
> 
> That isn’t a mistake.  That’s just plain stupidity Darwanism.  And it is politics.
> 
> To paraphrase the sheriff in that article: it’s a reckless waste of life.
> 
> And yet they are complaining about masks being exported to a country that has an integrated supply system.  They can certainly look after number one .  I hope we do the same but they are being hypocrites and completely idiotic about how they are dealing with this.
> 
> I hope that clears up what I am saying.



FTFY

 ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

FJAG said:
			
		

> FTFY
> 
> ;D



Speaking of which....

Trump Vows to Keep Holding Rallies, Despite CPAC Attendee’s Coronavirus Case

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/trump-vows-more-rallies-despite-cpac-coronavirus-case.html


----------



## Remius

FJAG said:
			
		

> FTFY
> 
> ;D



The irony being that many of those that still insist on going to religious gatherings despite what science says right now, don’t believe in Darwinism anyway.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

How COVID-19 Is Changing US Army Boot Camp

Cool little insight on new recruit training at Fort Benning.

"physical dispersion of 40in"

What measures are to be taken at CFLRS when it opens back up?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZI-IzwPnY


----------



## dapaterson

In the "Call him Cassandra" department, Steve Silberman in May 2017.



> Trump's Katrina will be a deadly pandemic.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:
			
		

> The irony being that many of those that still insist on going to religious gatherings despite what science says right now, don’t believe in Darwinism anyway.


Also, that a huge percentage of those folks in Florida who insist on gettin them a regular dose of Jesus are in the older, more vulnerable age groups.


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> China Exports Rebound Even as Western Markets Face Lockdown
> 
> China says almost all of its major industrial companies have resumed production and that its ports are again running at near-full capacity after a two-month Coronavirus-linked shutdown.
> 
> The revival comes, however, as Western countries lock down their societies and economies in a bid to contain the pandemic, sparking disruption at key international seaports and airports and a fall-off in demand in China’s traditional markets.
> 
> Although the situation on the ground is changing day by day, some trends can be identified which are likely to continue, or in some cases be exacerbated, for as long as the COVID-19 pandemic continues to take its toll.
> 
> https://www.logisticsbureau.com/china-exports-rebound-even-as-western-markets-face-lockdown/



Never let a crisis go to waste.


----------



## blacktriangle

Maybe once this flared up in China, they purposefully sent infected citizens to other nations?

1. Strain adversary health care infrastructure

2. Damage adversary economies

3. Create panic

4. Sell needed goods to adversary and turn a profit. 

 :stirpot:


----------



## daftandbarmy

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:
			
		

> How COVID-19 Is Changing US Army Boot Camp
> 
> Cool little insight on new recruit training at Fort Benning.
> 
> "physical dispersion of 40in"
> 
> What measures are to be taken at CFLRS when it opens back up?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZI-IzwPnY



Of all the things I've found it most difficult to teach recruits, 'keeping 5 yeards' in the field has to be the toughest....  I hope this helps!


----------



## MilEME09

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Maybe once this flared up in China, they purposefully sent infected citizens to other nations?
> 
> 1. Strain adversary health care infrastructure
> 
> 2. Damage adversary economies
> 
> 3. Create panic
> 
> 4. Sell needed goods to adversary and turn a profit.
> 
> :stirpot:




It worse, critically stretch militsry resources and focus our attention else where making us ripe for attack. Ships are in port, soldiers are at home, aircraft are parked.


----------



## blacktriangle

I don't think anyone would risk directly attacking the US or NATO right now. Although I'm sure someone, somewhere is weighing whether now or the coming months might be a good time for a territory grab...no one stepped in during Crimea, and threat actors took note.


----------



## Jarnhamar

When you think of it China just costed Canada $100+ billion dollars without firing a bullet.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When you think of it China just costed Canada $100+ billion dollars without firing a bullet.



Might be self inflicted in the long run.  I expect a lot of manufacturing to leave China when this is all said and done.


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:
			
		

> Might be self inflicted in the long run.  I expect a lot of manufacturing to leave China when this is all said and done.



Absolutely, and this is the flip side of things.

At the end of the day though, money still talks. China will still be able to make things cheaper, and if we insist on making everything ourselves, it will cost us one way or another. At least in the short term, which is all politicians seem to care about.


----------



## Remius

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Absolutely, and this is the flip side of things.
> 
> At the end of the day though, money still talks. China will still be able to make things cheaper, and if we insist on making everything ourselves, it will cost us one way or another. At least in the short term, which is all politicians seem to care about.



That is a fair and realistic point of view.  Something tells me we will see some very big changes in the world after this.  For better or for worse.


----------



## Kirkhill

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Absolutely, and this is the flip side of things.
> 
> At the end of the day though, money still talks. China will still be able to make things cheaper, and if we insist on making everything ourselves, it will cost us one way or another. At least in the short term, which is all politicians seem to care about.



How much do you reckon all this downtime is costing, then?


----------



## blacktriangle

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> How much do you reckon all this downtime is costing, then?



Too much. I think you can find evidence of me saying so a couple pages back. I just found out today that my spouse's job might be in question, and she works for a large, profitable Canadian company. And even if she does, we are still more fortunate than most. I can't imagine things are great for the average family out there right now. 

But do I have faith that we are going to see a complete 360 and return thousands of manufacturing jobs to Canada? If they do, do I have faith that the corporations will pay decent wages, and not exploit a labour market filled with jobless people? Do I have faith that the average Canadian will want to pay more for their goods once their own good fortunes return? Do I have faith the left-leaning politicians, academics, climate change ragers etc will shut up and let it happen? 

I think certain governments are happy to see this happen. The people "need" them more than ever, and that's what some on the political spectrum want. I see corporations and investors taking advantage of the situation wherever they can...business after all, right? I see cuts coming to government pensions, veterans benefits, you name it. All too generous, people should simply be happy to have a job or a small pension etc...as the average person will have even less. 

I think eventually things will rebound and boom. The rich will resume getting richer, once again. But do I think we will be enriched as a society by this, no. I think we will simply have more left behind. I hope I'm way off. That's just me. I'm not an optimist, and I'm definitely not an economist.

What do you think?


----------



## kkwd

The latest Canadian figures. It has doubled since Monday. Quebec is getting hit hard. They started out with no cases on March 22nd and it shot up from there. You can play the animation ans see how fast it spread.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> _*That is a fair and realistic point of view.*_  Something tells me we will see some very big changes in the world after this.  For better or for worse.


I get it that you are not a fan of the US administration, your postings on this forum point to that. But fair and realistic, from a global perspective, has been moot for the last 10 years. There will not be very big changes domestically, except in some hastily re-considered critical resource and supply chains. There will not be any Kumbaya here as well, people are people. What there is very likely to be is a hardening of any consideration instead that globalization is a positive benefit...we have already seen some of the ramifications and I believe we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
Yes, the US has been isolationist and selfish...so what. The CCP has been that to the nth degree, and bears significant responsibility for this, as well as SARS and swine flu. Hungary is descending into authoritarianism, Poland and Bulgaria are not far behind. Most of Europe vacillated, quelle surprise, and now finds itself fighting a costly and potentially existential struggle. Canada has had the luxury, yet again, of viewing the havoc created around us, from a distance without having the full furor of this descend, so can pretend to be, as always, the global arbiter of common sense. I don't buy into the finger pointing.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Some internationally trained doctors can apply for 30-day Ontario licence to fight COVID-19*
> 
> _Provision covering licences was triggered last month, but few have applied so far_
> 
> International medical graduates who've passed their exams to practise in Canada, or have graduated from school in the past two years, can now apply for a supervised 30-day medical licence in Ontario to help fight COVID-19.
> 
> The short-term licence, called a Supervised Short Duration Certificate, allows some foreign-trained physicians and domestic medical school graduates to practise under supervision at public hospitals, psychiatric facilities and Crown agencies.
> 
> The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (CPSO) began issuing the certificates last month — without an announcement — by triggering a provision in existing provincial legislation.
> 
> So far, few doctors have applied — although many likely don't know it's an option.
> 
> Vanig Garabedian didn't, but now that he does, the Syrian refugee plans to apply for the licence. Garabedian worked as as an obstetrician and gynecologist in his native country.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/internationally-trained-doctors-covid-19-1.5519881


----------



## Weinie

I notice that there are currently 4 "hidden" guests on here. Being a Luddite on this, what the heck does that even mean?


----------



## Good2Golf

Most of the forum is open (“Read-only”, as it were) to anyone, Weinie, not just registered members.  Those show up as ‘Guest’.

Regards
G2G


----------



## blacktriangle

Are the "hidden" not the registered members who choose not to display their online status?


----------



## Weinie

G2G,

Got that. But at the top of this forum it lists a bunch of folks I know, who are logged in, and thus visible, and 18 "Guest" folks who are either not logged in or not members, (+2 Hidden).

Just wonderin?


----------



## Weinie

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Are the "hidden" not the registered members who choose not to display their online status?


Learnin more every day


----------



## blacktriangle

Weinie said:
			
		

> G2G,
> 
> Got that. But at the top of this forum it lists a bunch of folks I know, who are logged in, and thus visible, and 18 "Guest" folks who are either not logged in or not members, (+2 Hidden).
> 
> Just wonderin?



If you look, it says the names of registered members, (+ x hidden) and then specifies the number of guests. The hidden refers to registered users who hide their online status. 

If anyone is super bored, you could probably figure out who hides their online status over time...you can use me as a baseline. Just look at my online status, I'm "offline" right now. 



Edited to add...I'm kidding, please don't anyone start profiling us! It's the "guests" you have to worry about!


----------



## Weinie

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> If you look, it says the names of registered members, (+ x hidden) and then specifies the number of guests. The hidden refers to registered users who hide their online status.
> 
> If anyone is super bored, you could probably figure out who hides their online status over time...you can use me as a baseline. Just look at my online status, I'm "offline" right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add...I'm kidding, please don't anyone start profiling us! It's the "guests" you have to worry about!



Aaaaaaaaaah……...got it. Thx. Again, bit of a Luddite...can't keep up with you kids.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> I get it that you are not a fan of the US administration, your postings on this forum point to that. But fair and realistic, from a global perspective, has been moot for the last 10 years. There will not be very big changes domestically, except in some hastily re-considered critical resource and supply chains. There will not be any Kumbaya here as well, people are people. What there is very likely to be is a hardening of any consideration instead that globalization is a positive benefit...we have already seen some of the ramifications and I believe we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
> Yes, the US has been isolationist and selfish...so what. The CCP has been that to the nth degree, and bears significant responsibility for this, as well as SARS and swine flu. Hungary is descending into authoritarianism, Poland and Bulgaria are not far behind. Most of Europe vacillated, quelle surprise, and now finds itself fighting a costly and potentially existential struggle. Canada has had the luxury, yet again, of viewing the havoc created around us, from a distance without having the full furor of this descend, so can pretend to be, as always, the global arbiter of common sense. I don't buy into the finger pointing.



I makes no secret about that.  Whether I like them or not is moot nor relevant to my response to RE.  I was accepting what reverse engineer said countering my point that we might become more self sufficient in our manufacturing by seeing it leave China.  His point about money talking was valid and fair.  I’m not sure what you thought I was referring to.

I do believe there will be big changes. I’m on board with you kumbaya statement. 

As far as your so what? Well we are probably the most integrated pair of countries in the world.  We have reciprocal treaties and agreements.  We have people who cross over the border for all sorts of integrated services.  Some towns even share firefighters and paramedics.  We have people that marry and live in both countries,  let alone the trade and supply chain we have.  So it is a big deal.  Our main trading partner and ally is proving to be unreliable and unstable.  We’ve sent firefighters to help with their forest fire issues, on 911 we proved our support by allowing their planes to land in Canada when they themselves wouldn’t and vice versa on a whole other amount of times.  We’ve stood together through WW2, Korea, Afghanistan etc.  The problem is that they look like they are in over their heads and are acting irrationally and eroding what is left of any trust that we and other countries have of them.  They are doing the same to other countries not just us. 

I honestly believe there will be an attempt to become self sufficient.  The US is proving to be an unreliable ally.  China can’t be trusted.  So where does that leave us?

I believe that our social construct may change as well.  Everything by more people working from home, changes in some wages for some jobs, cuts to gvt and the military.  Reshaping our social programs and possible even having to cut them.  Taxes.  Online shopping.  Less travel.  New business models, old business models going under.  I think globalisation is going to be finished.  Some countries true colours will show.  the US as the global leader is done.  China and Russia are filling that void as we speak and will take that opportunity. 

Social distancing will be a thing.  I really hope anti vaccers get shut up permanently.  

This what I mean by changes. 

I don’t like Ford either. But he’s rising to the challenge and is fast becoming the Gov. Cuomo of Canada.  And his comments about how he will never let Ontario rely on countries like the US for our safety was well said and hopefully he can follow through.

What I don’t buy into is the BS the administration south of us has been peddling. They went from hoax to miracles to scarves being better than masks.  I trust their science pers. on their task force.  They have talented good people.  I just wish the political side would get onside with the experts.  The fact that Dr. Fauci needs a security detail because of death threats ought to tell you how messed up they are down there.  It’s been duelling banjos watching the POTUS and his COVID experts politely give different opinions at their briefings.  They still won’t issue a national stay at home directive.  Why?  Politics that’s why.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> Aaaaaaaaaah……...got it. Thx. Again, bit of a Luddite...can't keep up with you kids.



It might be that they are reading but haven’t logged on.  They probably show up has hidden.  Not sure they choose to be hidden.  I just ask my boy to explain these things to me.


----------



## blacktriangle

Weinie said:
			
		

> Aaaaaaaaaah……...got it. Thx. Again, bit of a Luddite...can't keep up with you kids.



I feel your pain...I'm in my 30's and the things I've seen guys 5-10 years younger than me able to do sometimes make me feel like I was raised in a cave. 

Anyways to not derail this any further: for those interested go to "Profile", then click "Account Settings" and uncheck the "Show others my online status" box. 

Cheers


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Further to Remius post:





> ... China and Russia are filling that void as we speak and will take that opportunity...





> Opinion: The coronavirus pandemic is the breakthrough Xi Jinping has been waiting for. And he’s making his move.
> 
> The plague that broke out in the Chinese city of Wuhan last December has now spread to the four corners of the earth, and its coming ravages can only be glimpsed in the limited forecasting capacities of epidemiology. It’s a science that relies on predictive analytics and models that can be skewed by any number of confounding variables, so there’s little certainty about what’s in store for us all.
> 
> As the geopolitical upheavals set off by the pandemic shudder with a force without precedent since the Second World War, some things, however, are clear and plain. China’s most draconian lockdowns have been lifted. Beijing is claiming victory over the plague. And the Chinese Communist Party is seizing what its senior officials are calling the “opportunity” of the pandemic to realize the party’s long-game objective of fully eclipsing North America and Europe in the global order.
> 
> Battered by the worst first-quarter economic performance since 1976, the Chinese economy is now being shifted into hyperdrive. Production is already back on track to achieve Beijing’s goal of making 2020 the year the country’s annual Gross Domestic Product doubles in size from 2010 to $13.1 trillion. But Beijing isn’t just doubling down on its usual methods, which involve constraining access to China’s growing markets while securing technological and global supply-chain dominance in critical trade sectors, and otherwise resorting to crude foreign-policy strong-arm tactics to get its way.
> 
> What’s new is that the Chinese state is committing vast resources to a hybrid strategy of intensified propaganda and information control in lockstep with an aggressive Russian-style disinformation effort. Aimed almost entirely at western audiences, the effort takes its cues from several Kremlin-backed operations, most obviously the barrage of fabricated “news” unleashed on behalf of the Donald Trump campaign during the 2016 U.S. presidential elections.
> 
> Experts in the field say Beijing isn’t just selling a “narrative” anymore. The new strategy is intended to spread chaos and confusion and incite mistrust of governments in democratic countries. According to an analysis undertaken by the Alliance for Securing Democracy (ASD), a project of the German Marshall Fund of the United States, Beijing is adopting “increasingly aggressive tactics and techniques” and rapidly ramping up its messaging on social media platforms, often cross-pollinating with Russian and Iranian disinformation efforts and amplifying conspiracy theories from fringe third-party websites.
> 
> “China’s more confrontational posture on COVID-19 represents a clear departure from its past behavior,” the ASD analysis concludes. “We have been able to see, in near-real time, Chinese state-backed media and government interlocutors borrowing a page from the Russian playbook in an attempt to influence global public opinion.”
> 
> The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic is the breakthrough Xi Jinping, China’s all-powerful paramount leader, has been waiting for. And he’s making his move.
> 
> While the Chinese government’s internal statistics are routinely questioned by outside analysts, China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology credibly reports that roughly 75 per cent of small and medium-sized businesses across the country have already resumed production. According to MIIT deputy minister Xin Guobin, even Hubei province, which had been hit hardest by the COVID-19 outbreak, is already back up and running. Roughly 95 percent of companies with annual industrial revenues of at least $4 million have resumed production.
> 
> Meanwhile, most of the world’s advanced economies are being sequestered in a state of suspended animation that is expected to last at least several months, or until a vaccine for the COVID-19 disease is developed, which is expected to take at least a year.
> 
> The world’s liberal democracies are scrambling to “plank the curve”—a necessary public-health strategy to flatten and drive down the rate of infections so that hospitals are not overwhelmed to the point of collapse. In order to enforce and maintain the social and physical isolation the curve-planking strategy requires, most western governments are devoting hitherto unimaginable resources to the building of economic life-support systems.
> 
> The House of Commons has authorized $107 billion in emergency aid and economic stimulus, and cabinet has been granted the authority to borrow up to $350 billion to cope with the pandemic. The White House signed off on a US$2 trillion relief bill. France has committed €350 billion ($547 billion) in direct relief, tax refunds and bank loan guarantees. The United Kingdom’s bailouts, wage guarantees and tax deferrals rack up to £458 billion ($812 billion).
> 
> According to an analysis by Horizon Advisory, a consultancy that investigates Chinese policy on behalf of corporations, investors and government agencies in the U.S., China’s central planners are taking every advantage of the democratic world’s predicament. “Beijing intends to use the global dislocation and downturn to attract foreign investment, to seize strategic market share and resources—especially those that force dependence, and to proliferate global information systems,” the Horizon Advisory analysts conclude.
> 
> “Beijing used the opening presented by the 2008 economic downturn to reach parity; to position itself as an alternative world leader. In COVID-19, Beijing sees the chance to win.”
> 
> With a GDP still at least 25 percent larger than China’s, the United States is still the world’s preeminent superpower, but the COVID-19 crisis “accelerates the process” that Beijing has put in place to overtake the U.S.—it will allow China “to claim market share across the globe and across strategic sectors as the rest of the world shuts down.”
> 
> A key focus of Beijing’s strategy for global dominance is an information technology infrastructure that is already being exported around the world, mostly through Huawei Technologies, China’s “national champion” telecom giant.
> 
> So far the “Five Eyes” security partnership of the U.S., the U.K., Australia, New Zealand and Canada has mostly resisted Beijing’s moves to assert dominance in fifth-generation (5G) technology infrastructure. But just barely. The U.S., Australia and New Zealand have barred Huawei from their 5G internet connectivity systems and the U.K. has tentatively decided to allow Huawei to take up only a third of its 5G outer edges. But Canada remains paralyzed...




Full article:
 https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-coronavirus-pandemic-is-the-breakthrough-xi-jinping-has-been-waiting-for-and-hes-making-his-move/


----------



## Weinie

> 'I don't like Ford either. But he's rising to the challenge and is fast becoming the Gov. Cuomo of Canada.  And his comments about how he will never let Ontario rely on countries like the US for our safety was well said and hopefully he can follow through.
> 
> What I don't buy into is the BS the administration south of us has been peddling. They went from hoax to miracles to scarves being better than masks.  I trust their science pers. on their task force.  They have talented good people.  I just wish the political side would get onside with the experts.  The fact that Dr. Fauci needs a security detail because of death threats ought to tell you how messed up they are down there.  Its been duelling banjos watching the POTUS and his COVID experts politely give different opinions at their briefings.  They still won't issue a national stay at home directive.  _*Why?  Politics that's why.*_



Remius,

Interesting as I agreed with all of the stuff that I didn't transcribe/copy above. You present reasoned arguments, I just don't believe that the 800lb gorilla in the room really gives a shyte, especially as we haven't given them any reason to do so in the last 50 years...where have we had any real leverage over their decisions, they have brought/cajoled us along for mostly international considerations. As to the international scene, especially China, woe is us if we continue on our current path.
I did leave the Gov Coumo piece in though. Think you have missed the rationale of why Gov Cuomo has appeared to step up. _*Why? Politics that's why.*_ 2024 Democratic candidate in the making. Anyways, appears that we have more in common than in disagreement.

_Staff edit to fix broken quote formating._


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> I did leave the Gov Coumo piece in though. Think you have missed the rationale of why Gov Cuomo has appeared to step up. _*Why? Politics that's why.*_ 2024 Democratic candidate in the making. Anyways, appears that we have more in common than in disagreement.



Well I suppose the same could be said about Ford in 2023 lol.  As long as they stay effective and manage things properly they deserve the credit.  Like I said Ford is rising to that challenge and is showing true leadership.  

Agreement can happen here from time to time.  Even if it if it happens violently  ;D


----------



## Weinie

Thanks to whoever did the "staff edit to fix broken quote formating" above. Like I said, I'm a Luddite.


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> Social distancing will be a thing.



Have you been talking to my wife?


----------



## FJAG

Looks like Canada isn't the only one the US is screwing out of 3M products:



> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8186041/An-act-modern-day-piracy-Germany-France-accuse-seizing-shipments-medical-masks.html



 :cheers:


----------



## BDTyre

Reservists being offered Class C until the end of the summer in prep for Covid-19 or natural disaster assistance.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-to-offer-full-time-work-to-all-military-reservists-as-part-of-covid-19-response-1.4881452#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=m1rHFgH


----------



## Haggis

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Reservists being offered Class C until the end of the summer in prep for Covid-19 or natural disaster assistance.
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-to-offer-full-time-work-to-all-military-reservists-as-part-of-covid-19-response-1.4881452#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=m1rHFgH


  That will make up, in a small part, for the cancellation of the 2020 Public Duties of the Ceremonial Guard, which was just announced on the 33 CBG Facebook page.


----------



## PuckChaser

Haggis said:
			
		

> That will make up, in a small part, for the cancellation of the 2020 Public Duties of the Ceremonial Guard, which was just announced on the 33 CBG Facebook page.



National Sentry program is being reviewed as well.


----------



## dapaterson

Haggis said:
			
		

> That will make up, in a small part, for the cancellation of the 2020 Public Duties of the Ceremonial Guard, which was just announced on the 33 CBG Facebook page.



CDS announced that yesterday in his letter - also put Snowbirds, CF-18 demo team and Skyhawks on notice that their display seasons were also under review.


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> CDS announced that yesterday in his letter - also put Snowbirds, CF-18 demo team and Skyhawks on notice that their display seasons were also under review.



Other than the CAF Demo team, that makes perfect sense. Snowbirds and Skyhawks can't do their training camps right now, and there's a massive safety element to their jobs.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post:



> COVID-19, or, the Craven Treatment of the Chicoms from the Up-Sucking Canadian Government
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Chicoms Lied; People Died
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what follows are excerpts from a piece in Maclean’s by Terry Glavin (tweets here). Mr Glavin is our most brilliantly polemical journalist. He also is one who does far more serious research than most. Below is his account our Liberal government’s pathetic dealing with matter related to the CCP and its handling of the corona virus. That account is just part of major, much broader, description of how Xi’s China is working tirelessly through through massive disinformation activities (including social media) to turn to its advantage–both domestically and globally–events stemming from its clear mishandling of the outbreak. Please do read it all...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/covid-19-or-the-craven-treatment-of-the-chicoms-from-the-up-sucking-canadian-government/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MilEME09

The biggest problem with China is we didn't use our anti Soviet play book on them, economically isolate them, contain and slowly let them spend them selves into the ground.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I have "fond" memories of waking up at 6 or 7am on a Sunday routines "because army". I'm still in disbelief at the CDS's decision to keep soldiers at home with their families at the onset of this pandemic, marking time and protecting ourselves and our families while waiting to get called out. In my whole career I would have never believed I'd see something like this. I would have bet money against it. Senior CoC in Canada really hit this out of the park.


----------



## PuckChaser

As much as I think Vance has become quite the politician, he really did get this right. He saw right away the strat risk of 30-40% of our force contracting COVID-19 and being unable to deploy domestically.


----------



## MarkOttawa

And start of another post, about the UK:



> No, Vera, Fighting COVID-19 Nothing Like Fighting the Germans
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 and a Blitz Myth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of Britain’s most interesting historians, David Edgerton, (tweets here, I’ve read two of his books–he specializes in upsetting historical applecarts), is sick and tired of the never-ending myth-making...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/04/fighting-covid-19-nothing-like-fighting-the-germans/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Underway

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> The biggest problem with China is we didn't use our anti Soviet play book on them, economically isolate them, contain and slowly let them spend them selves into the ground.



Don't need to.  They are still spending themselves into the ground.  China will likely collapse within 10 years based on their government spending.  Their entire economy is highly leveraged (think Obama sized bailouts every month for the last 10 years) and highly dependant on international trends/trade it cannot shape or preserve (demographic mostly).  Every system that has followed China's path has crashed.  China will as well. And no one will help them as they have no friends.  If anything COVID 19 will hasten their end as it pushes the negative demographic trends faster down the line.

Not to mention their horrible strategic location.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> As much as I think Vance has become quite the politician, he really did get this right. He saw right away the strat risk of 30-40% of our force contracting COVID-19 and being unable to deploy domestically.



Very naval of him.  The "fleet in being" just by its presence is a strategic asset.  I'm sure there is an equivalent army term  - "force preservation" perhaps.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I have "fond" memories of waking up at 6 or 7am on a Sunday routines "because army". I'm still in disbelief at the CDS's decision to keep soldiers at home with their families at the onset of this pandemic, marking time and protecting ourselves and our families while waiting to get called out. In my whole career I would have never believed I'd see something like this. I would have bet money against it. Senior CoC in Canada really hit this out of the park.



Since the dispersal of students back to their home towns, I want to see their plan of return to duties once all this has calmed down. Take RMC as an example, I’m going to guess that a good portion of them are from virus-hotspots - GTA, Quebec and Vancouver. All it takes is for one of them to bring something back and the entire base is at risk. What about transit bases like St.Jean, Moose Jaw and Borden, will returning students be isolated for 14 days before being reintroduced back into the base population? Let’s hope they’ve thought that far ahead.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ouch.... 


COVID-19 shuts down Everest


Canceled climbing season deals major blow to Nepal’s fragile economy

High-altitude climbers are some of the fittest, healthiest people on the planet and their pursuits typically steer them miles away from civilization, but they won’t escape the fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic that has caused travel restrictions and spurred quarantines around the world.


On March 11, the China Tibet Mountaineering Association (CTMA), the organization in charge of issuing all travel and climbing permits across the Tibetan Plateau, announced that no one will be allowed to climb Mount Everest from the China-controlled north side of the mountain this spring.


Following China’s announcement, Nepal, in a late-night decision on Thursday, also canceled all spring climbing expeditions, including those to Everest, according to The Kathmandu Post. Additionally, the government has temporarily stopped issuing on-arrival tourist visas. The visa suspension will go into effect March 14 and last until April 30.


Mountain tourism is one of the backbones of Nepal’s economy, and Everest climbers alone contribute more than $300 million to the country, which ranks as one of the poorest in the world. This decision to stop all climbing expeditions will deliver a major blow to the local communities whose economic livelihoods rely on trekking and mountaineering tourism.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/2020/03/will-coronavirus-shut-down-everest/


----------



## garb811

Quirky said:
			
		

> Since the dispersal of students back to their home towns, I want to see their plan of return to duties once all this has calmed down. Take RMC as an example, I’m going to guess that a good portion of them are from virus-hotspots - GTA, Quebec and Vancouver. All it takes is for one of them to bring something back and the entire base is at risk. What about transit bases like St.Jean, Moose Jaw and Borden, will returning students be isolated for 14 days before being reintroduced back into the base population? Let’s hope they’ve thought that far ahead.


That's going to be a concern for sure but...how, in a place like CFLRS, RMC, Borden, do you self-isolate anyone coming back for 14 days? I know the nightmare the 14 day isolation has caused on bases just with living in folks who had to self-isolate and figuring out how they are supposed to be fed, use communal washrooms/showers/smoke-pits etc etc etc.


----------



## Blackadder1916

One would suppose that "social distancing" does have some minor benefits separate from, you know, saving civilization.  Not that there was a continuous stream of individuals previously at my door soliciting donations, extolling the benefits of selecting them as their energy provider, or "spreading the good word", but one or two every couple of weeks was not unusual.  I hadn't even thought of it until this morning, when I received a phone call.  Upon answering I was greeted by a much too exuberant individual who identified himself by his first name and asked me of my thoughts about the current world situation.  After a quizzical "what", I asked him what he wanted.  He explained (only to his satisfaction) that he was with an organization that was interested in the world situation and finding out the views of others.  On the best of occasions I could charitably be described as having a brusque phone manner; interrupting my Saturday morning routine (even routine adjusted to meet current limitations) does little to improve my attitude.  So I replied in a less than best occasion manner with "who the f*** are you with".  His response was that he was with a group called the "Jehovah Witnesses".  He might have started to say something else (I wasn't really paying attention to him by then) but I interrupted him by remarking that it's unfair of them to change their method of contacting people without providing an alternative to turning the sprinklers on them, siccing the dog or at least slamming the door in their face.  With the current technology one can't even slam down the receiver like in the old days.


----------



## OldSolduer

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> The biggest problem with China is we didn't use our anti Soviet play book on them, economically isolate them, contain and slowly let them spend them selves into the ground.



Because we got cheap stuff from them.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> With the current technology one can't even slam down the receiver like in the old days.



Blackadder: Keep a Boatswain's call by your phone. Work's great!


----------



## FJAG

In the  "You just can't make this sh*t up" department.



> Mast fire probe amid 5G coronavirus claims
> 
> Mobile phone mast fires are being investigated amid conspiracy theories claiming a link between 5G and coronavirus.
> 
> There have been fires at masts in Birmingham, Liverpool and Melling in Merseyside.
> 
> A video, allegedly of the blaze in Aigburth, was shared on YouTube and Facebook, claiming a link between the mobile technology and Covid-19.
> 
> Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove said it was "dangerous nonsense".
> 
> The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport said on Twitter "there is absolutely no credible evidence" of a link, while trade body Mobile UK said such rumours and conspiracy theories were "concerning". ...



See rest here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## Weinie

FJAG said:
			
		

> In the  "You just can't make this **** up" department.
> 
> See rest here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358
> 
> :Tin-Foil-Hat:


 Pretty sure Huawei UK Div will offer to replace the masts free of charge.


----------



## The Bread Guy

FJAG said:
			
		

> In the  "You just can't make this sh*t up" department ...


More of the same from the _South China Morning Post_  ...


> When veteran accommodation businesswoman Shirley (not her real name) took over a 15 room-guest house on a floor in a Jordan building in November last year, she planned to turn the establishment into a short-stay “love hotel”.
> 
> Shirley hoped that tapping into the demand of couples for private rooms could shield her business from the slump in tourism caused by the social unrest that was gripping the city.
> 
> But with a complete drop-off in visitors to Hong Kong amid the coronavirus pandemic and 200 guest houses predicted to close this month alone, according to one industry figure, she is banking on sex dolls to keep her business afloat.
> 
> She came up with the idea after meeting a friend who sold the silicone companions. “I paid a visit to a friend’s place where he showed me a doll,” Shirley said. “Then I thought to myself: ‘It’s quite interesting.’”
> 
> She talked it over with Kenneth Lee Wai-lin, who had developed an app for booking love hotel rooms and tutored her on pursuing the business model. “The size of the market is like a dark tunnel,” Lee said. “If you never go in, you’ll never know where the gold is.” ...


----------



## Weinie

She talked it over with Kenneth Lee Wai-lin, who had developed an app for booking love hotel rooms and tutored her on pursuing the business model. “The size of the market is like a dark tunnel,” Lee said. “If you never go in, you’ll never know where the gold is.” ..

I don't know even where to go with this. I laughed my ass off upon first reading, and then thought "Ok this is "The Onion" posing as the South China Post. The double entendre is brilliant.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Meh, to each their own.

My question is who gets to clean them? <shudder>


----------



## Weinie

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Meh, to each their own.
> 
> My question is who gets to clean them? <shudder>



Son of Roomba.....Womba.

Sorry. It was there.


----------



## Kat Stevens

FJAG said:
			
		

> In the  "You just can't make this sh*t up" department.
> 
> See rest here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358
> 
> :Tin-Foil-Hat:



It astounds me that, in these times of virtually unlimited information access, the human race just gets stupider.


----------



## FJAG

Interesting story of how much of the coronavirus spread in Europe came from one small ski region in the Austrian Tyrol:



> Chronicle of Failure
> 
> A Corona Hotspot in the Alps Spread Virus Across Europe
> 
> The Austrian winter-sports mecca of Ischgl is well known for its parties. But after helping spread the virus across Europe, the town's reputation is changing to one of incompetence and greed.
> 
> By Jürgen Dahlkamp, Hauke Goos, Roman Höfner, Felix Hutt, Gunther Latsch, Timo Lehmann, Walter Mayr, Max Polonyi and Jonathan Stock
> 
> The Alpine village of Ischgl, located in Paznaun Valley in the Austrian province of Tyrol, sits at an altitude of 1,377 meters (4,517 feet). It is home to a parish church, a funerary chapel, around 1,600 permanent residents and 11,800 tourist beds. It also has 239 kilometers of ski runs, 1,000 snow cannons and 45 lifts. There is a disco called the Kuhstall and an après-ski bar known as Kitzloch. In Ischgl, guests can ski during the day and then party through the night, drinking Jägermeister and Red Bull. Ischgl has grown into a travel brand to rival Ibiza or Oktoberfest, with millions of tourists pouring into town each year. They arrive from Dublin, Reykjavik, Copenhagen and Helsinki, and the town is also popular among Germans. The tourism industry in the valley generates annual revenues of 250 million euros.
> 
> The huge numbers of tourists in town have changed Ischgl in recent years. More recently, though, it is Ischgl that has changed the world. In just 14 days, starting on the last day of February, the Austrian village developed into Ground Zero of the European coronavirus epidemic. ...



Read the rest here: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ischgl-austria-a-corona-hotspot-in-the-alps-spread-virus-across-europe-a-32b17b76-14df-4f37-bfcf-39d2ceee92ec

 :cheers:


----------



## Retired AF Guy

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Meh, to each their own.
> 
> My question is who gets to clean them? <shudder>



Probably the same people that clean the holodeck on the Starship Enterprise.
From Top 10 Things I Hate About Star Trek

2. The Holodeck.
I mean, it's cool and all. But do you really believe that people would use it to re-create Sherlock Holmes mysteries and old-west saloons? Come on, we all know what the holodeck would be used for. And we also know what the worst job on the Enterprise would be: Having to squeegie the holodeck clean.


----------



## cavalryman

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Probably the same people that clean the holodeck on the Starship Enterprise.
> From Top 10 Things I Hate About Star Trek
> 
> 2. The Holodeck.
> I mean, it's cool and all. But do you really believe that people would use it to re-create Sherlock Holmes mysteries and old-west saloons? Come on, we all know what the holodeck would be used for. And we also know what the worst job on the Enterprise would be: Having to squeegie the holodeck clean.



Red shirts.  It's the new death.  Worse than the old.


----------



## CBH99

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Probably the same people that clean the holodeck on the Starship Enterprise.
> From Top 10 Things I Hate About Star Trek
> 
> 2. The Holodeck.
> I mean, it's cool and all. But do you really believe that people would use it to re-create Sherlock Holmes mysteries and old-west saloons? Come on, we all know what the holodeck would be used for. And we also know what the worst job on the Enterprise would be: Having to squeegie the holodeck clean.




Haha, huge Star Trek fan here and those were quite clever and true!


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Haha, huge Star Trek fan here and those were quite clever and true!



Reverse the polarity...


----------



## Weinie

Or double the lithium


----------



## Haggis

As we are, for a brief period, merging Star Trek and COVID -19....


----------



## mariomike

> The public health recommendation advises against firefighters from attending any call for a potential influenza-like illness or COVID-19.
> 
> https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/news/kamloops-firefighters-won-t-respond-to-covid-19-related-medical-calls-1.24112921



...so the Paramedics will go alone.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

mariomike said:
			
		

> ...so the Paramedics will go alone.



So then who will pose for the photo ops, and leave shortly after? :


----------



## Remius

Haggis said:
			
		

> As we are, for a brief period, merging Star Trek and COVID -19....



Note the COVID curve chart behind Kirk.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> So then who will pose for the photo ops, and leave shortly after? :



Why do paramedics need firefighters to go to medical calls anyways?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *A Walmart security guard was struck by a car for enforcing physical distance rules*
> 
> A security guard a the Galeries Quatre-Saisons Walmart in Sherbrooke attempting to enforce physical distancing measures was struck by a disgruntled customer's car and is in critical condition.
> 
> La Tribune reported that the guard frustrated his alleged attacker, who became upset because the Walmart at the mall only allows one person per vehicle to enter the store, according to Sherbrooke Police (SPS).
> 
> SPS Lieutenant Alain Prefontaine said the person got in his vehicle and drove straight for the employee around 5 p.m. Saturday night.
> 
> The person was arrested for armed assault, and the authorities fear for the security guard’s life.
> 
> 
> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/a-walmart-security-guard-was-struck-by-a-car-for-enforcing-physical-distance-rules-1.4883183


----------



## Jarnhamar

Taiwan seems to be doing pretty good for themselves. As of today 363 cases and 5 deaths. Seems like they took this pretty seriously from the start. We should have probably did the same.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> So then who will pose for the photo ops, and leave shortly after? :



Always time for the photo ops.  :
https://twitter.com/nyulangone/status/1246480980438810630




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why do paramedics need firefighters to go to medical calls anyways?



Because they want to go to medical calls.



> As one of this union's most fundamental responsibilities, our involvement in EMS has helped us create and save jobs for our members.
> 
> International Association of Firefighters ( IAFF ) General President Harold A. Schaitberger
> June 12, 2003
> 
> http://www.iaff.org/03News/061203has.html



Only SARS, and now this, stopped them.


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> Something tells me we will see some very big changes in the world after this.  For better or for worse.



It will show the world who real friends are when this is over, not the U.S, IMO, although the Italian PM is on TV right now saying that Trump is a real friend to Italy.  It has also caused me to question my vote because I believe we should be retaliating against the Americans. Although, I'm not sure Sheer would have either.  This has also shown me that going forward, Canada should never again depend on a foreign country for essential items.

STAFF EDIT:  warning issued for name-calling the PM, there are civil ways to get your message across.
Bruce

edited to reword my comment.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Hundreds of military personnel on the move to Base Borden*
> 
> Hundreds of members of the Canadian Armed Forces from across the province are on the move to Base Borden.
> 
> On Sunday, the Department of National Defence (DND) advised the public that they will see a larger number of military vehicles and personnel on the roads between the GTA and Base Borden.
> 
> Members from the Joint Task Force Central (JTFC) will form a centrally located task force at the base to be at the ready to respond.
> 
> The move is part of the government’s approach in the fight against COVID-19.
> 
> The DND says this task force is ready to support the Public Health Agency of Canada in the fight against COVID and other local crises, including flooding.
> 
> 
> https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/hundreds-of-military-personnel-on-the-move-to-base-borden-1.4883231
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/tory-says-that-city-doesn-t-need-military-at-this-point-as-canadian-forces-starts-moving-troops-to-cfb-borden-to-respond-1.4883171
> 
> https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1691202/covid-19-armee-militaires-borden-ontario-force-operationnelle


----------



## Jarnhamar

Where are the soldiers sent to Borden sleeping out of?


----------



## Blackadder1916

COVID-19 Patients Accidentally Transferred to Hospital Ship Comfort; Pentagon Easing Rules on Patients Treated
https://news.usni.org/2020/04/03/rules-eased-on-patient-transfers-to-usns-comfort-more-navy-personnel-to-join-domestic-covid-19-support


> By: Gidget Fuentes
> April 3, 2020 10:49 PM • Updated: April 4, 2020 4:11 PM
> 
> _This post has been updated with additional information about five COVID-19 patients who were transferred to USNS Comfort on Saturday._
> 
> After public criticism flared late Thursday that USNS Comfort (T-AH-20) was treating too few patients while New York City hospitals grapple with COVID-19 cases, defense officials on Friday agreed to ease requirements for patients treated by the 1,000-bed hospital ship.
> 
> The initial arrangement by federal and local authorities required patients first be screened and tested for the virus by a local hospital before they could be transported to Comfort, which caused a backlog at some hospitals. Instead, patients now are screened by temperature and a short questionnaire pier-side, the Defense Department announced.
> 
> “Ambulances will now go directly to the Comfort instead of heading to a hospital for screening,” Jonathan Hoffman, the chief Pentagon spokesman, said during an afternoon press conference at the Pentagon.
> 
> That procedural change, however, leaves open the possibility that patients not exhibiting COVID-19 symptoms might actually be infected. Fox News reported Saturday that “less than five” patients ambulances brought aboard Friday had swab tests done during screening that later were then found positive for COVID-19. On Saturday, those patients were taken off the ship and returned to the makeshift Army hospital set up at the Jacob Javits Convention Center.
> 
> A U.S. 2nd Fleet spokeswoman confirmed to USNI News that “a few patients tested positive” for coronavirus. “The patients were isolated immediately upon arrival and received care for the entirety of their time aboard the ship, and were transferred as soon as practical to the Javits Center,” said Lt. Marycate Walsh in New York City. While no longer requiring a negative COVID-19 test before patients can be broad to Comfort, “we are now accepting asymptomatic, screened patients who will be isolated and tested immediately upon arrival.”
> 
> Military and medical officials have said procedures were in place to handle such cases to prevent the spread aboard ship. “
> 
> Our medical experts on board are well prepared for cases like this and have taken the appropriate precautionary measures,” Walsh said.
> 
> That includes infection-control procedures that are the same as civilian hospitals and the use of personal protective equipment by Comfort personnel. “The areas where all patients have been are thoroughly cleaned, before patients arrive, during their stay and upon departure,” Walsh said, adding “we are taking every precaution to prevent the spread of COVID-19.”
> 
> Comfort this week berthed at Pier 90, one of the city’s cruise terminals along the Hudson River. The hospital ship – along with sister ship USNS Mercy (T-AH-19) that’s deployed to Los Angeles as part of the military’s support to the federal response – are staffed, equipped and organized to treat non-COVID-19 infected patients to help ease local hospitals’ caseloads of treating non-COVID-19 trauma patients.
> 
> News and social media posts that just two days ago heralded Comfort’s arrival in Manhattan turned scathing after the senior medical officer aboard, in an Pentagon press briefing, that three patients were brought onto the ship in the first day and more patients likely would arrive in the coming days. (Navy officials late Thursday said the count was up to 20.)
> 
> The Navy had rushed Comfort to New York from Norfolk, Va., where the ship departed March 28 after an interrupted maintenance period. “We believe we are early to need at this time, but anticipate the usage will grow in the coming days,” Hoffman said.
> 
> In New York, Comfort is plugged into the city’s hospital and ambulance network. By eliminating the initial requirement for a COVID-19 test result, “now the ambulance takes people straight to the Comfort, so we believe that will increase the numbers.”
> 
> While the expectation was to treat trauma patients, and relieve that burden on local hospitals, regional shelter-in-place orders by local and state officials have led to fewer trauma cases, such as vehicle accidents and assaults, on a daily basis. “Hospitals have not seen that demand as much,” Hoffman said. “Do we expect to see that go up? Yes. We do not believe we are at the peak in New York by any stretch. We expect that will go up in the coming days.”
> 
> The dearth of initial caseload also prompted increased calls for the military to allow treatment of COVID-19 patients on the ships, as some local emergency facilities have begun to do.
> 
> “With the Comfort and the Mercy, it’s something we are looking at,” Hoffman said, adding that “we are very well aware of the risks in doing that. We’ve all seen what happens on some of the ships,” such as the cruise ships.
> 
> “It’s not an environment built for handling infectious diseases,” he said. “So our concerns are a couple: One, keeping the spread from non-COVID infected patients on the ship. That would be very difficult. Two, our expectation has always been that these Comfort and the Mercy would go to the areas of greatest need, and then as the wave passes… that maybe the Comfort and the Mercy are needed somewhere else. Maybe they are needed in Miami or New Orleans or somewhere else on the East Coast, and maybe the Mercy is needed somewhere else.
> 
> “If we open it up to COVID patients, the likelihood of infection of our doctors goes up. We’re aware of that risk and taking it into account,” he added. “The likelihood of having to empty the ship out at some point and do an extensive, deep cleaning that could take days or longer goes up, and therefore that may reduce our ability to use it in the future. All of that is being looked at.”
> 
> Hoffman said officials were optimistic that test kits that can quickly determine whether a patient is infected with COVID-19 would speed up the screening and processing of trauma patients brought to the ships and field hospitals and community treatment centers also handling COVID-19 patients. “We’ll be looking at that as it comes online in the coming days,” he said.
> 
> The Defense Department is taking guidance on the assignment of its medical resources from FEMA and the Department of Health and Human Services, which are working with state and local officials to determine “where our resources would do the best good,” Hoffman said. “Our hope is that we’ll be able to move people around, and that we’ll be able to go from one community to the next” if needs change. U.S. Northern Command is leading the COVID-19 support to civil health authorities.
> 
> Also on Friday, the Defense Department agreed to a FEMA request to expand its medical support to include support patients who test positive for the COVID-19 virus at three locations: at New York City’s Jacob Javits Convention Center, Morial Federal Medical Station (FMS) in New Orleans, La., and Kay Bailey Hutchinson FMS in Dallas, Texas.
> 
> Navy expeditionary medical facilities, or EMF, “were in the process of deploying to New Orleans and Dallas and would be fully operational in the next couple of days,” Hoffman said. The military deployed more than 400 doctors, 1,000 nurses and 60 respiratory therapists to those locations, and “we have another 350 doctors, 500 nurses and almost 100 respiratory therapists that are on the way.”
> 
> Those personnel are from active-duty units in the Navy, Army and Air Force, but “we’ve begun to put reserve units on notice that they may be necessary,” he said, adding that volunteers might be sought from the reserves and the Guard.


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see how many reservists end up being AWOL...



Since this is only a voluntary call up, it wouldn't make sense for them to be AWOL... if it was mandatory then I could see it.


----------



## Haggis

Lumber said:
			
		

> A member of the reserve unit I worked at was a Leading Seaman for almost 20 years because he could never get away from his job long enough to complete PLQ and QL5.



I recall, probably about 10 years ago, that a number of career A Res Pte(B), Cpls and 2Lts who were in the same boat as your LS (see what I did there?) were directed to be released from the CAF as 5(d) (Not Advantageously Employable).


----------



## stellarpanther

Lumber said:
			
		

> A member of the reserve unit I worked at was a Leading Seaman for almost 20 years because he could never get away from his job long enough to complete PLQ and QL5.
> 
> Not all courses CAN be conducted in-house on weekends. Some require specialist equipment and instructors. How are you going to teach a jr boatswain boat driving skills in the prairies?



I should have worded it differently but the trades that can should.  I did a QL5 MP course on the weekend.  MSE Op would be an option that could be run as any unit I've seen has vehicles.  When we did weekend courses years ago, we had a couple different units involved and the people from out of town slept at the armoury.


----------



## Kilted

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Reservists being offered Class C until the end of the summer in prep for Covid-19 or natural disaster assistance.
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-to-offer-full-time-work-to-all-military-reservists-as-part-of-covid-19-response-1.4881452#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=m1rHFgH




This is not how my C-of-C has explained it to us. We were told that everyone who volunteered would be merited as there was only a limited number of positions at this point.


----------



## dimsum

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If people can't get away from their regular job, they shouldn't join.



If they knew that in advance, sure.  But, how many people know for certain what the next 20 years will be like in terms of job situation and time off?


----------



## Kilted

Dimsum said:
			
		

> If they knew that in advance, sure.  But, how many people know for certain what the next 20 years will be like in terms of job situation and time off?




And what about all the reservists who are first responders or health care workers? They could normally get time off for training or for deployment, but are unavailable now because they are more needed where they are.


----------



## stellarpanther

Kilted said:
			
		

> This is not how my C-of-C has explained it to us. We were told that everyone who volunteered would be merited as there was only a limited number of positions at this point.



I think there is a lot of confusion about this because a couple of mbr's that my son knows were told the same thing.  Some people have said they're interested in it but the units are decided whether to action the requests.  I'd love to know where the confusions is.  As well is this for ANY mbr of the reserve or do you need to be trade qualified?  Units are all doing their own interpretation of things.  Since most of the stuff done will most likely be GD type work, I would think anyone who has completed BMQ should be eligible.  Hopefully this can be quickly clarified tomorrow.


----------



## daftandbarmy

'The Charter still applies': Canadians urged to monitor civil liberties during pandemic

While Canadians monitor their bodies for signs of COVID-19 symptoms, civil liberties advocates and human rights lawyers are urging citizens to also keep track of the possible erosion of democratic rights.

The ongoing states of emergencies across the country have given authorities sweeping new powers, and police forces have started — or are considering — using cell phone data to track the movement of people. Civil rights advocates say citizens need to remain hyper-vigilant about how authorities are using these new powers, and what kind of legacy will be left once the pandemic is over.

https://www.nsnews.com/news/the-charter-still-applies-canadians-urged-to-monitor-civil-liberties-during-pandemic-1.24112853


----------



## Haggis

Kilted said:
			
		

> This is not how my C-of-C has explained it to us. We were told that everyone who volunteered would be merited as there was only a limited number of positions at this point.



Having gone through the Class C DOMOPS force generation machine a few times, my guess is that it's likely that "merited" is being confused with "DAGed Green".  Before a Reservist goes Class C there are quite a number of medical, administrative and other requirements that must be met and not everyone who wants to go Class C can meet them.  Yes, the CDS can authorize some of these to be waived, but others he cannot and will not for safety and liability reasons.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Where are the soldiers sent to Borden sleeping out of?



Well they sent all the students home so the barracks should be relatively empty. Even with that, Borden is teeming with old, empty barrack blocks so accommodations shouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine they'll be stuffing them into 4-6 per room. 

Seems like the CAF is general is preparing for something to happen, they just don't know what, where or if. The entire force is sitting at home, like a coiled spring ready to ACK our way into the community.


----------



## GR66

Important and interesting conversation, but should the CAF's deployment plans and readiness questions be moved out of this thread and keep this to information about the pandemic itself?


----------



## Kilted

Quirky said:
			
		

> Well they sent all the students home so the barracks should be relatively empty. Even with that, Borden is teeming with old, empty barrack blocks so accommodations shouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine they'll be stuffing them into 4-6 per room.
> 
> Seems like the CAF is general is preparing for something to happen, they just don't know what, where or if. The entire force is sitting at home, like a coiled spring ready to ACK our way into the community.



Don't forget Blacktown.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't have a good answer but something needs to be done. What's the point in actively recruiting people if it takes years to get them trained?



Whoa... you've just knocked over a couple dozen rice bowls right there 

I think this issue has been discussed (and badly argued by people like me) elsewhere too. Can anyone help with a link?

Then we can get back to the Covid thing....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Kilted said:
			
		

> Don't forget Blacktown.



Blackdown is probably the easiest to support a coy or bn of augmentees. Kinda crappy for the dudes living out of there though.


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Blackdown is probably the easiest to support a coy or bn of augmentees. Kinda crappy for the dudes living out of there though.



There's always the option of hooch'n it if you are from 2 CMBG.  :nod:


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Blackdown is probably the easiest to support a coy or bn of augmentees. Kinda crappy for the dudes living out of there though.



Op CADENCE IRU, never forget.


----------



## dangerboy

The Queen's broadcast to the UK and the Commonwealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_hNq6-0S8


----------



## FJAG

dangerboy said:
			
		

> The Queen's broadcast to the UK and the Commonwealth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_hNq6-0S8



That was a good speech. There are some leaders in North America who could (and should) take a lesson from that.

 :cheers:


----------



## Blackadder1916

Boris will now have an opportunity to personally thank NHS staff.


Coronavirus latest news: Boris Johnson admitted to hospital
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/queen-coronavirus-speech-address-news-update-live/


> Boris Johnson has been admitted to hospital to undergo tests after testing positive for the coronavirus.
> 
> The Prime Minister has had coronavirus for 10 days and continues to have persistent symptoms, it is understood.
> 
> The tests are being carried out for "precautionary" reasons, Downing Street have said.
> 
> He remains in charge of the Government and in contact with Ministers and officials.
> 
> A Downing Street spokesperson said: “On the advice of his doctor, the Prime Minister has tonight been admitted to hospital for tests.
> 
> “This is a precautionary step, as the Prime Minister continues to have persistent symptoms of coronavirus ten days after testing positive for the virus.
> 
> “The Prime Minister thanks NHS staff for all of their incredible hard work and urges the public to continue to follow the Government’s advice to stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives.”
> 
> It comes as the Queen delivered a historic, stirring address to the nation during the coronavirus lockdown - read more here.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Covid-19: Disrupted VBIED attack plot targeting hospital indicates weaponisation of virus by far-right extremists in the United States*
> 
> Key Points
> 
> - On 24 March, an individual identified as 36-year-old Timothy R. Wilson, who allegedly plotted to conduct a VBIED attack targeting a hospital, died during an FBI operation in Belton, Missouri.
> - Posts allegedly written by Wilson and other members of a far-right movement on Telegram demonstrate the literal and rhetorical weaponisation of Covid-19, which has become a force multiplier for neo-Nazi action and rhetoric.
> - This has resulted in an expansion of the targets and tactics commonly employed by members of the movement, rendering attacks of both low and high levels of sophistication likely on targets associated with the virus (such as hospitals), and on local government and law enforcement assets and personnel (as the visible symbols of response to the outbreak).
> 
> 
> https://www.janes.com/article/95329/covid-19-disrupted-vbied-attack-plot-targeting-hospital-indicates-weaponisation-of-virus-by-far-right-extremists-in-the-united-states



Previously:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-supremacists-encouraging-members-spread-coronavirus-cops-jews/story?id=69737522

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-extremists-conspiracies-covid-19/


----------



## mariomike

Saw an ad for 550 RNs to deploy into NYC.

$10,000 per week
Food stipend
Travel reimbursement
Luxury lodging

FDNY now directing their paramedics to "consider all patients to be infected".

"I used ten N95 masks today ( Sunday ) because I was on ten cardiac arrests", said one.

Reports of out of hospital deaths being ten times higher than the normal number. Not being included in the official covid death count. Not really hard to believe they are being undercounted as people are being instructed to stay home, unless things get worse. It can be a short hop from "not sick enough" to dead. 

Math was never my strong suit. But, areas will need to report overall death by any means vs confirmed covid vs historical data for the same time frame in past years.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

So many ripple effects; many we won’t truly see the full scope of until this is over. 

 Unprecedented measures as dairy farmers asked to dump milk due to lack of demand



> LONDON, ONT. -- With a glut in supply due to COVID-19, dairy farmers around the region are being asked to dump their milk.
> 
> "We can't turn the cows off," says John Walker of Walker Dairy Inc.
> "They are full of milk every day for us. On Friday and Saturday at Walker Farms southeast of Aylmer, Ont. they've been asked to take their milk, and dispose of it.
> 
> "There is just nowhere for it to go," says Walker. "Schools, restaurants, and even Tim Hortons' amount of cream is down. Those are all things that have slowed down demand for our product right now."
> 
> The Dairy Farmers (DFO) of Ontario called for unprecedented measures this week with low demand.
> 
> "Disposing of milk is an extraordinary measure, and one that Dairy Farmers of Ontario has only ever considered in emergency situations," Cathy Smith, chief executive officer of DFO said in a statement.
> 
> "Yet, this week, we informed producers that these measures would be necessary on a select and rotating basis. Ontario producers continue to do their part to nourish Canadians with high-quality milk, and we are working very closely with processors and industry groups to respond to the unpredictable market fluctuations that are now part of our current environment."
> 
> Farmers, who will be paid for the milk are saying as many as five million litres will be dumped weekly.
> 
> Walker says he believes the staff at DFO are working hard to figure this out, which is a tough job.
> 
> "Farmers, and many other industries are all feeling it in the province," says Walker. "The quicker we get through this the better."



 https://london.ctvnews.ca/mobile/unprecedented-measures-as-dairy-farmers-asked-to-dump-milk-due-lack-of-demand-1.4883515


----------



## macarena

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Coronavirus latest news: Boris Johnson admitted to hospital



"_(...) This is a precautionary step, as the Prime Minister continues to have persistent symptoms of coronavirus ten days after testing positive for the virus (...)_"

This can serve as an warning for those who had been tested. I mean, if one still has symptoms on the 10th day, then it is better to don't take further time before to make a move to a hospital.
But for those who will not be tested, due to lack of tests, should them count from the first day of symptoms?
I think so, right?


----------



## mariomike

Police attempting to disperse a funeral.

https://twitter.com/JNEWS245/status/1246847062269923328

Windows UP!


----------



## macarena

(...) _Canada to recruit volunteers, offer jobs to reservists amid COVID-19: Trudeau_ (...) [1]

Does someone has more intel about how one can enroll itself to that list?


[1]
source: https://globalnews.ca/news/6780556/coronavirus-canada-trudeau-update/


----------



## PuckChaser

macarena said:
			
		

> Does someone has more intel about how one can enroll itself to that list?



Yeah, be a Reservist, get asked if you want to support and then say yes. They're not hiring civilians to do anything.


----------



## dapaterson

macarena said:
			
		

> Does someone has more intel about how one can enroll itself to that list?



The sign-up page for volunteers is at: https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?toggleLanguage=en&poster=1437722


----------



## dapaterson

Montreal Canadiens player Jeff Petry is providing meals to ER staff every day at the Montreal Children's hospital.

https://twitter.com/BWildeGlobal/status/1246942718661713921


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The sign-up page for volunteers is at: https://emploisfp-psjobs.cfp-psc.gc.ca/psrs-srfp/applicant/page1800?toggleLanguage=en&poster=1437722



Thanks, I've thrown my name in. I'm spending most of my time at home... A way to be useful would be good.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Montreal Canadiens player Jeff Petry is providing meals to ER staff every day at the Montreal Children's hospital.
> 
> https://twitter.com/BWildeGlobal/status/1246942718661713921



Of course he is. "Habs Rule"


----------



## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> Thanks, I've thrown my name in. I'm spending most of my time at home... A way to be useful would be good.



I hear you on that. 

Also, did anyone else find one of the education/experience questions a little surprising?


----------



## Remius

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I hear you on that.
> 
> Also, did anyone else find one of the education/experience questions a little surprising?



How so?


----------



## kkwd

The latest stats. 49 deaths the past 24 hours. 

https://phac-aspc.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/e968bf79f4694b5ab290205e05cfcda6


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:
			
		

> How so?



I guess I didn't expect to have to answer a question about surveillance experience on a volunteer application?


----------



## brihard

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I guess I didn't expect to have to answer a question about surveillance experience on a volunteer application?



Pretty sure they mean epidemiological surveillance.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Brihard said:
			
		

> Pretty sure they mean epidemiological surveillance.



That's the way I read it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3269210


> Epidemiological surveillance is the systematic collection, analysis and dissemination of health data for the planning, implementation and evaluation of public health programmes.


----------



## blacktriangle

Seen - thanks Brihard/Blackladder!


----------



## Blackadder1916

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Seen - thanks Brihard/Blackladder!



You're welcome

And here's a course so you check off that box.   ;D

http://www.uniteforsight.org/surveillance/


----------



## blacktriangle

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> You're welcome
> 
> And here's a course so you check off that box.   ;D
> 
> http://www.uniteforsight.org/surveillance/



Ha...I took a look at that link. I think I'll have to stick to dishing out food from a haybox or keeping the coffee fresh...  ;D

Cheers


----------



## Blackadder1916

A tiger at the Bronx Zoo tests positive for coronavirus

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/05/us/tiger-coronavirus-new-york-trnd/index.html


> By Alaa Elassar, CNN  Updated 10:03 PM ET, Sun April 5, 2020
> 
> (CNN) Nadia, a tiger at the Bronx Zoo in New York, has become the first of her kind to test positive for the coronavirus.
> 
> The 4-year-old female Malayan tiger tested positive after developing a dry cough and is expected to recover, the Wildlife Conservation Society's Bronx Zoo said in a news release.
> 
> Samples from Nadia were taken and tested after the tiger -- and five other tigers and lions at the zoo -- began showing symptoms of respiratory illness, according to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA). No other animals at the zoo are showing symptoms.
> 
> "Though they have experienced some decrease in appetite, the cats at the Bronx Zoo are otherwise doing well under veterinary care and are bright, alert, and interactive with their keepers," the zoo said.
> 
> "It is not known how this disease will develop in big cats since different species can react differently to novel infections, but we will continue to monitor them closely and anticipate full recoveries."
> 
> The animals were infected by a zoo employee who was "asymptomatically infected with the virus" while caring for them, according to the zoo. The Bronx Zoo has been closed to the public since March 16.
> 
> Anyone sick with the coronavirus is being advised to minimize contact with animals, including pets, until more information is known about the virus, the USDA said.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> A tiger at the Bronx Zoo tests positive for coronavirus
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/05/us/tiger-coronavirus-new-york-trnd/index.html



Interesting. 

I’m seeing more frequent reports of possible evidence of humans passing it to their pets. But for every report saying it’s possible, there’s another saying evidence is inconclusive as of yet. ‘Curious to read what develops there.


----------



## Underway

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> I’m seeing more frequent reports of possible evidence of humans passing it to their pets. But for every report saying it’s possible, there’s another saying evidence is inconclusive as of yet. ‘Curious to read what develops there.



Housecats can get coronavirus. It's common enough that they get immunized for it.  However, the strain that COVID 19 is doesn't necessarily translate over to cats.  Research is still ongoing. There is some possible evidence from a very small sample size that it can be transmitted to cats, but no evidence it goes the other way.


----------



## stellarpanther

Does anyone know if the experts are still saying this virus has an average death rate of 1-2 percent?  The reason I ask is because when you look at the various tracking site and do the calculations, it is much higher than that.  The U.S. is currently at approx. 2.8 percent, Canada approx. 1.6 percent but Germany for example is starting to go up as well as other countries.  The UK is over 10 percent.  If this site is right with their numbers and I'm doing math right, the fatality rate is much higher than 1-2 percent for a lot of countries and keeps going up.

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the experts are still saying this virus has an average death rate of 1-2 percent?  The reason I ask is because when you look at the various tracking site and do the calculations, it is much higher than that.  The U.S. is currently at approx. 2.8 percent, Canada approx. 1.6 percent but Germany for example is starting to go up as well as other countries.  The UK is over 10 percent.  If this site is right with their numbers and I'm doing math right, the fatality rate is much higher than 1-2 percent for a lot of countries and keeps going up.
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6



Problem is, since we are not mass testing everyone, so we are not catching every case, the percentage will be off because we do not have an accurate case count. It would be more accurate to me to tke the number of deaths, and reverse it at a fixed 2% to get a guess of the total infections including the ones we haven't found yet.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If this site is right with their numbers and I'm doing math right, the fatality rate is much higher than 1-2 percent for a lot of countries and keeps going up.



I'll leave the math for others. 

But, when was the last time we saw a request for body bags by the hundreds of thousands, so many non-transports when 9-1-1 calls are breaking the record set on 9/11 - day after day, police "DOA units", crematoriums going full blast 24/7, mobile refrigerator units for dead bodies and mass graves dug by inmates?

I am also guessing that many of the deceased will later be discovered in their homes. That is common enough during "normal" times.



> POSSIBLE CORONA VIRUS ACCIDENT BETWEEN NYPD AND FDNY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFC-tINUvok&feature=emb_logo


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the experts are still saying this virus has an average death rate of 1-2 percent?  The reason I ask is because when you look at the various tracking site and do the calculations, it is much higher than that.  The U.S. is currently at approx. 2.8 percent, Canada approx. 1.6 percent but Germany for example is starting to go up as well as other countries.  The UK is over 10 percent.  If this site is right with their numbers and I'm doing math right, the fatality rate is much higher than 1-2 percent for a lot of countries and keeps going up.
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6



Numerator over denominator. We know more or less how many people are dying of coronavirus. We don't know how many people have it. The case fatality ratios are flawed because testing remains very limited. There are many instances of people known to be frankly symptomatic (I know some) who have not qualified for or sought testing. If you get 10 deaths out of 1000 diagnosed cases, that gives you a CFR of 1%. But if besides those known cases there are another 3000 unknown cases, then the actual real ration would only be .25%.

Flip side to that- jurisdictions (Italy, Spain, France) that start seeing critical care system overload see fatality rates spike, because those case fatality ratios take into account everyone getting appropraite medical care. Start denying medical care, and a much greater proportion of the critically ill cases die. Say your city has 1000 ICU beds. On a normal day they run 80% full with other trauma and illness- car crash victims, people who've been shot or stabbed, people with non-COVID serious respiratory illnesses. So you have 20 ventilators left. COVID comes along, 75 show up in hospital of which 20 need ventilators. They've all got one, and half of them live (we're fuzzy on those numbers- I've seen estimates of 30-70% survival rate for those who require mechanical ventilation). Great. So out of those 20, ten die, ten are able to be saved because of appropriate medical support.

Fast forward a month now, and your hospital faces a major spike in cases. You're still getting car accident victims, still getting stabbings, etc. Even though those are down, you still have some. Say they have 30 beds now open for COVID and were able to surge another 20, so ou can deal with 50 COVID patients on ventilators. But because cases have climbed rapidly, your hospital now gets 400 patients, of which 130 need ventilators. Well, you've only got 50, so the other 80 don't get ventilated, and they almost all die. So now fatality rates jump considerably.

*that* is what flattening the curve is about. We can't stop this f'er from spreading completely, but if we slow it down enough, each hospital doesn't face more cases at once than it can deal with. Because even if we can mass produces more ventilators- we cannot so easily produce more trained respiratory therapists, critical care doctors, and critical care nurses to run expanded ICUs, to actually do intubations. There are shortages of medications needed to sedate and sustain intubated patients... Lots of stress points in the logistics of all this.


----------



## mariomike

NYC will be burying the dead in the local parks. Yes, the parks in NYC will become cemeteries. They will be buried in trenches. 

https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/nyc-to-begin-temporarily-burying-coronavirus-victims-in-local-parks/


----------



## BDTyre

Haggis said:
			
		

> Having gone through the Class C DOMOPS force generation machine a few times, my guess is that it's likely that "merited" is being confused with "DAGed Green".  Before a Reservist goes Class C there are quite a number of medical, administrative and other requirements that must be met and not everyone who wants to go Class C can meet them.  Yes, the CDS can authorize some of these to be waived, but others he cannot and will not for safety and liability reasons.



When they pitched it to us initially, all that was required was a medical questionnaire form. And then...Friday night, shortly before 2100, I get a call out of the blue, from someone at my unit (but not in my chain of command) telling me effective that evening I was on class C. I never filled out the medical questionnaire, I never put my name forward, I'm pretty sure I would DAG red on some items and I had made it clear to my chain of command that until further notice I am employed full-time by my civilian employer (they are considered an essential service).

But apparently, just like that, I was given class C. I'm assured that the situation has remedied itself.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> When they pitched it to us initially, all that was required was a medical questionnaire form. And then...Friday night, shortly before 2100, I get a call out of the blue, from someone at my unit (but not in my chain of command) telling me effective that evening I was on class C. I never filled out the medical questionnaire, I never put my name forward, I'm pretty sure I would DAG red on some items and I had made it clear to my chain of command that until further notice I am employed full-time by my civilian employer (they are considered an essential service).
> 
> But apparently, just like that, I was given class C. I'm assured that the situation has remedied itself.



Or, just maybe, because you're a trained soldier in the Canadian Army you're 'good enough', without any need to jump any other ridiculous administrative hurdles?


----------



## BDTyre

Now you're just being nice!  ;D


----------



## Kirkhill

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Problem is, since we are not mass testing everyone, so we are not catching every case, the percentage will be off because we do not have an accurate case count. It would be more accurate to me to tke the number of deaths, and reverse it at a fixed 2% to get a guess of the total infections including the ones we haven't found yet.



With respect - universal testing, or 100% sampling, is generally accepted as poor statistics, for a variety of reasons.  "Polling" levels of testing, or a couple of thousand random tests on the general population would create a much cheaper, faster, and more accurate sense of the current situation.  

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/491021-how-deadly-is-the-coronavirus

As it stands now the guesstimates are plus or minus a log cycle or two.  We could be "off" with respect to any of the numbers by factor of 10 to 100 in either direction. In the absence of good data the politicians are still working under worst (political) case assumptions.


----------



## Kirkhill

Haggis said:
			
		

> Having gone through the Class C DOMOPS force generation machine a few times, my guess is that it's likely that "merited" is being confused with "DAGed Green".  Before a Reservist goes Class C there are quite a number of medical, administrative and other requirements that must be met and not everyone who wants to go Class C can meet them.  Yes, the CDS can authorize some of these to be waived, but others he cannot and will not for safety and liability reasons.



This is kind of the continuing problem with the Canadian Reserve system. 

Service is seen as an opportunity, a reward to be secured in good times.  Not as an obligation to be undertaken in hard times.  Both the employer and the employees tend to see it that way.


----------



## Underway

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This is kind of the continuing problem with the Canadian Reserve system.
> 
> Service is seen as an opportunity, a reward to be secured in good times.  Not as an obligation to be undertaken in hard times.  Both the employer and the employees tend to see it that way.



Not an unfamiliar viewpoint.  The US had similar issues when they went back to Iraq.  Plenty of students who joined the National Guard did not expect to get mobilized for a war they didn't agree with.


----------



## Haggis

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> But apparently, just like that, I was given class C. I'm assured that the situation has remedied itself.



And, at the other end of the scale a P Res Cpl in my company, deployed on Class C TOS overseas, received an NES letter from his unit directing him to turn in his kit and release because he hadn't paraded all year.

We had some fun with that one at his unit's expense.


----------



## dapaterson

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This is kind of the continuing problem with the Canadian Reserve system*Forces*.
> 
> Service is seen as an opportunity, a reward to be secured in good times.  Not as an obligation to be undertaken in hard times.  Both the employer and the employees tend to see it that way.



Not an exclusively Res F problem...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Getting off topic again folks....


----------



## stellarpanther

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYC will be burying the dead in the local parks. Yes, the parks in NYC will become cemeteries. They will be buried in trenches.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/nyc-to-begin-temporarily-burying-coronavirus-victims-in-local-parks/



That actually came up during Gov Cuomo's Press Conference today, he said he hasn't heard of it but there are reports of it.


----------



## stellarpanther

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> When they pitched it to us initially, all that was required was a medical questionnaire form. And then...Friday night, shortly before 2100, I get a call out of the blue, from someone at my unit (but not in my chain of command) telling me effective that evening I was on class C. I never filled out the medical questionnaire, I never put my name forward, I'm pretty sure I would DAG red on some items and I had made it clear to my chain of command that until further notice I am employed full-time by my civilian employer (they are considered an essential service).
> 
> But apparently, just like that, I was given class C. I'm assured that the situation has remedied itself.



If you didn't request it, I would certainly ask for it in writing. Other than yours, I haven't heard of anyone being forced on class C.  Has anyone else heard of this?


----------



## Altair

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the experts are still saying this virus has an average death rate of 1-2 percent?  The reason I ask is because when you look at the various tracking site and do the calculations, it is much higher than that.  The U.S. is currently at approx. 2.8 percent, Canada approx. 1.6 percent but Germany for example is starting to go up as well as other countries.  The UK is over 10 percent.  If this site is right with their numbers and I'm doing math right, the fatality rate is much higher than 1-2 percent for a lot of countries and keeps going up.
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


considering the amount of people who are asymptomatic (testing in Iceland says half of those who are tested are asymptomatic)  and those who have mild cases and don't go to hospital and get tested, there is no way the current death rate is accurate.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYC will be burying the dead in the local parks. Yes, the parks in NYC will become cemeteries. They will be buried in trenches.
> 
> https://nypost.com/2020/04/06/nyc-to-begin-temporarily-burying-coronavirus-victims-in-local-parks/



That is not a firm plan as of yet. What do you think would be the risk of disinterring and moving decomposing bodies?


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That actually came up during Gov Cuomo's Press Conference today, he said he hasn't heard of it but there are reports of it.



It came from the chair of New York City health council. 

Mayor De Blasio said, “I’m not going into details. I don’t think it’s a great thing to be talking about.”


New York paramedics responding to six cardiac arrests within five hours of going on duty. Never heard of anything like that in my life.



> logged on at 6am it is now 11:05am. I’ve done 7 runs and 6 cardiac arrests.
> https://twitter.com/AnthonyAlmojera/status/1246817259307352065


----------



## dimsum

Someone made a Lego version of Trudeau's address to the children (part of his daily update) a few weeks ago.  It's pretty good.

https://www.facebook.com/slavitch/videos/10158725336785400


----------



## Remius

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Someone made a Lego version of Trudeau's address to the children (part of his daily update) a few weeks ago.  It's pretty good.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/slavitch/videos/10158725336785400



Just saw it. Very well done.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post on a delightful Aussie media response to diplomacy with Chinese characteristics:



> COVID-19, or, Chicoms will Chicom, Australia Section
> 
> One longs for something so simply, er, robust in the Canadian media as this from the tabloid (who cares, eh?) _Daily Telegraph_ of Sydney, by Tim Blair (tweets here):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Via Local Commie Underlings, Beijing Officially Disapproves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _Daily Telegraph_ this week received a letter from the Australian Consulate General of the People’s Republic of China, who took gentle issue with our excellent coverage of the coronavirus crisis...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/06/covid-19-or-chicoms-will-chicom-australia-section/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Semi-related, all the rental cars not being used had to be stored somewhere and then.....

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/05/us/airport-fires-cars-trnd/index.html?fbclid=IwAR37KLHYkG7Rt9A4e_rg2DL40fdFqtUaeWrsXdQqmMhC6eWRZAUGeH6c5Bo


----------



## MarkOttawa

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Start of a post on a delightful Aussie media response to diplomacy with Chinese characteristics:
> 
> The _Daily Telegraph_ this week received a letter from the Australian Consulate General of the People’s Republic of China, who took gentle issue with our excellent coverage of the coronavirus crisis...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/06/covid-19-or-chicoms-will-chicom-australia-section/
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



What a blindingly transparent effort by Huawei to bribe its way into our 5G networks. How flipping crass, with the company’s Canadian compradors taking the lead:



> Huawei sending millions of masks to Canada as supplies grow short
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-huawei-sending-millions-of-masks-to-canada-as-supplies-grow-short/



Hurl to the max.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I would check the masks first for signs of being infected.  

CCP gonna CCP....


----------



## Kirkhill

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> What a blindingly transparent effort by Huawei to bribe its way into our 5G networks. How flipping crass, with the company’s Canadian compradors taking the lead:
> 
> Hurl to the max.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Not on a bet...


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If you didn't request it, I would certainly ask for it in writing. Other than yours, I haven't heard of anyone being forced on class C.  Has anyone else heard of this?



Sounds like someone misread an email or something, I would be getting on the phone with your CoC immediately to sort it out.


----------



## blacktriangle

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I would check the masks first for signs of being infected.
> 
> CCP gonna CCP....



No kidding. 

And it just so happens that they have millions of masks to spare, ready to go?


----------



## blacktriangle

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> What a blindingly transparent effort by Huawei to bribe its way into our 5G networks. How flipping crass, with the company’s Canadian compradors taking the lead:
> 
> Hurl to the max.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



We won't have any money left when this is over, and I'm sure they will sell their 5G as a loss-leader.


----------



## Spencer100

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This is kind of the continuing problem with the Canadian Reserve system.
> 
> Service is seen as an opportunity, a reward to be secured in good times.  Not as an obligation to be undertaken in hard times.  Both the employer and the employees tend to see it that way.



As an employer I have instructed HR that any employee in the reserves will have their jobs protected.


----------



## BDTyre

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Sounds like someone misread an email or something, I would be getting on the phone with your CoC immediately to sort it out.



I've confirmed it's been dealt with.


----------



## GR66

Boris Johnson has been moved to Intensive care as his symptoms have worsened

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52192604


----------



## Remius

Someone (a British doctor) on the news said that a person his age going into an ICU with covid only has a 54% chance of getting out.  But apparently the ICUs in that hospital are top notch.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Lot's of useful info here on homemade masks, via my friends at Tanknet
https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/


----------



## Remius

If you think things are bad...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8191717/Trade-representative-Peter-Navarro-shouted-Tony-Fauci-economist-pushed-unproven-malaria-drug.html

So a social scientist thinks he’s as qualified as a doctor.  An expert doctor at that. 

 :facepalm:


----------



## Blackadder1916

Colin P said:
			
		

> Lot's of useful info here on homemade masks, via my friends at Tanknet
> https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/



If you can't incorporate "gun tape" in the mask, it's not military compatible.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, a national level leader leads the way, the right way  

Irish Leader Returns To Medicine To Help Battle COVID-19 Pandemic 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/06/828252726/irish-leader-returns-to-medicine-to-help-battle-covid-19-pandemic


----------



## Journeyman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, a national level leader leads the way, the right way
> 
> Irish Leader Returns To Medicine To Help Battle COVID-19 Pandemic


So by implication, you're suggesting our PM's leadership may best be put to use by his returning to the substitute teacher field?


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, a national level leader leads the way, the right way
> 
> Irish Leader Returns To Medicine To Help Battle COVID-19 Pandemic
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/06/828252726/irish-leader-returns-to-medicine-to-help-battle-covid-19-pandemic




  Indeed


This crisis has really shown which of our political leaders are true leaders, and who are true politicians.  Some people, all over the globe, have really stepped up & tackled this better than I think we'd expect politicians to typically do.


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Indeed
> 
> 
> This crisis has really shown which of our political leaders are true leaders, and who are true politicians.  Some people, all over the globe, have really stepped up & tackled this better than I think we'd expect politicians to typically do.



Many are doing it as well. Along with the risks.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6730945/coronavirus-liberal-mp-kamal-khera/

I believe a Con mpp is also on the frontline fighting this as a nurse.

Good on them.  They’ll be more useful in those roles.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So by implication, you're suggesting our PM's leadership may best be put to use by his returning to the substitute teacher field?



Or an 'Aladdin' Walt... you know... giving his all for Netflix


----------



## blacktriangle

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Or an 'Aladdin' Walt... you know... giving his all for Netflix



Perhaps he can offer style or fragrance advice at The Bay? I'd prefer he not be "educating" our future generations.


----------



## dimsum

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, a national level leader leads the way, the right way
> 
> Irish Leader Returns To Medicine To Help Battle COVID-19 Pandemic
> 
> https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/06/828252726/irish-leader-returns-to-medicine-to-help-battle-covid-19-pandemic



Miss England as well:



> Miss England hangs up her crown to return to work as doctor during coronavirus pandemic
> 
> (CNN)A beauty queen who was crowned Miss England in 2019 has returned to the United Kingdom from overseas charity work to continue her career as a doctor amid the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> Bhasha Mukherjee took a career break as a junior doctor after competing in the Miss World pageant in December 2019. Mukherjee represented England at the pageant after winning Miss England.



https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/06/uk/miss-england-coronavirus-doctor-scli-intl-gbr/index.html


----------



## brihard

Montfort Hospital in Ottawa - which includes a defense medical wing, and hosts Ottawa sick parade - has declared a local outbreak after staff tested positive.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/covid-19-outbreak-declared-at-the-montfort-hospital-1.4884953


----------



## garb811

I think this is a nice touch!   :rofl:


----------



## mariomike

> Ontario first responders get authority ask for COVID-19 status
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2020/04/06/workers-in-hamilton-hospitals-infant-unit-test-positive-for-covid-19.html
> 
> The measure announced Monday comes after a Peel paramedic tested positive for the novel coronavirus after tending to victims at a motor vehicle accident.


----------



## Remius

City of Ottawa just laid off 4000 people. Part time positions.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/4-280-part-time-city-of-ottawa-employees-laid-off-due-to-covid-19-pandemic-1.4884667?cache=


----------



## mariomike

NYC says their paramedics responded to 2,192 cases of deaths at home between March 20th and April 5th, or about 130 a day, an almost 400 percent increase from the same time period last year. 

How many of those were Coronavirus deaths? NYC has no idea.




> Staggering Surge Of NYers Dying In Their Homes Suggests City Is Undercounting Coronavirus Fatalities
> 
> https://gothamist.com/news/surge-number-new-yorkers-dying-home-officials-suspect-undercount-covid-19-related-deaths
> 
> If you die at home from the coronavirus, there’s a good chance you won’t be included in the official death toll.



And, if you die "home alone", there's a good chance nobody immediately called 9-1-1.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYC says their paramedics responded to 2,192 cases of deaths at home between March 20th and April 5th, or about 130 a day, an almost 400 percent increase from the same time period last year.
> 
> How many of those were Coronavirus deaths? NYC has no idea.
> 
> 
> And, if you die "home alone", there's a good chance nobody immediately called 9-1-1.



A situation ripe in which to develop a "fictional" murder mystery plot.  I estimate within a year of the end of this pandemic there will a TV movie (_or if Law and Order, original recipe, was still running they'd be jumping on it_) that uses this as the background scenario.

I wondered if there had been Covid-19 specific guidance issued by the NYC medical examiner.  A quick search of the OCME site found none, but they "generally do not disclose specific methods undertaken to reach a determination" of cause of death.  So, while the MEs are probably being run off their feet and will likely be backlogged for weeks or months, I would supposed that determining a cause of death for a significant number of those dying at home will become the responsibility of the OCME.



> *Reportable Death Criteria*
> OCME has jurisdiction over deaths occurring under the following circumstances:
> . . .
> Sudden death of a person in apparent good health
> Deaths which occur unattended by a physician and where no physician can be found to certify the cause of death; in this context, "unattended by a physician" shall mean not treated by a physician within 31 days immediately preceding death
> . . .
> OCME also investigates any case that may present a threat to public health.
> 
> *Procedures for Reporting Deaths*
> Deaths should be reported promptly to avoid delays in official investigations.
> 
> Police precincts and hospitals throughout the City telephone a Report of Death to OCME's Communications Department by dialing 212-447-2030, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week; the Communications Specialist on duty records basic information concerning the circumstances of injury or death, and of hospitalization. The Communications Specialist then notifies an available OCME MedicoLegal Investigator (MLI).
> 
> The MLI will respond to the scene and obtain additional facts from family, friends, and police. If there are reasons for further examination or autopsy, the MLI will direct that the body be transported to an OCME facility. When death has occurred in a hospital, a field investigation is generally not conducted; instead, the investigation routinely consists of a review of hospital records with the reporting physician. Health care facilities reporting cases to OCME Communications must present the following completed and competent documentation:
> ME Clinical Summary Worksheet 3.0
> Required Documents for All NYC OCME Cases_Revised Memo
> ME Clinical Summary Worksheet Version 3.0 Instructions
> 
> Deaths occurring in health care facilities which do not meet the Reportable Death Criteria in 1 above need not be reported to OCME.
> 
> Deaths occurring within 24 hours of hospitalization from natural causes in which the diagnosis has been made with reasonable medical probability need not be reported, despite the fact that the patient survived less than 24 hours in the hospital; there is no "24-hour rule" in New York City.
> 
> Deaths due exclusively to natural disease need not be reported to OCME.



Though, while I was unable to find any specific Covid-19 guidance on the OCME site, they have issued some guidelines to be found on other organizations sites.
https://www.gnyha.org/tool/nyc-mass-fatality-management-guidance/

And this for general interest.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/misinformation-on-covid-19-death-protocols-in-new-york/


----------



## stellarpanther

A friend asked me this question this morning and I had no idea but it made me curious.  Are the troop being sent to Borden Reservists or are Reg F also being sent and is it other bases doing this as well?  Also, is this a just in case or are there plans to use them?  Listening to the Ontario government or Toronto Mayor talk, they are acting as if they don't see a need nor will they.  Obviously it's important to plan.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Not sure if this has already been shared...

Map shows COVID-19's potential spread from spring breakers

“We took a look at a specific beach in Ft. Lauderdale over a two week period, which was spring break,” said Jefferson Wilson, Tectonix chief operating officer. “Then, using Tectonix we were able to zoom back out and see where those devices went before and after spring break.”

https://www.wtxl.com/news/florida-news/map-shows-covid-19s-potential-spread-from-spring-breakers


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> A friend asked me this question this morning and I had no idea but it made me curious.  Are the troop being sent to Borden Reservists or are Reg F also being sent and is it other bases doing this as well?  Also, is this a just in case or are there plans to use them?  Listening to the Ontario government or Toronto Mayor talk, they are acting as if they don't see a need nor will they.  Obviously it's important to plan.



Probably reservists, likely the TBG HQ coy pre positioning everything


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Unless the place is on fire the last thing "anywhere Canada" would want is more people, no?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Colin P said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lot's of useful info here on homemade masks, via my friends at Tanknet
> https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can't incorporate "gun tape" in the mask, it's not military compatible.
Click to expand...


I was attempting humour there, but it seems that some military organization do want improvised masks to be "militarized".

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/06/diy-t-shirt-masks-and-balaclavas-military-services-release-face-covering-guidance.html


> DIY T-Shirt Masks and Balaclavas: Military Services Release Face-Covering Guidance
> 
> 6 Apr 2020 Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk
> 
> The military branches are requiring troops to make their own cloth face masks after the Pentagon's latest policy directed face coverings for all personnel during the novel coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> The Defense Department announced Sunday that troops, DoD civilian employees, contractors and family members are encouraged to make simple coverings out of clean T-shirts and other household materials. The do-it-yourself face coverings are mandatory whenever people cannot maintain six feet of social distance in public areas or places of work, according to the policy, signed by Defense Secretary Mark Esper.
> 
> The DIY masks will help preserve much-needed N95 and surgical masks for health care workers, the policy states.
> 
> Some services have since posted updates to emphasize that personnel must stay in line with their respective uniform guidance. Service officials, such as those in the Air Force and Marine Corps, emphasized that base security checkpoints may require the lowering of masks to verify identification when coming onto an installation.
> 
> Here's what else you need to know:
> 
> The Air Force wants commanders to ensure face coverings worn by uniformed military members are "conservative, professional, and in keeping with dignity and respect" in compliance with current instructions, and "cover the mouth and nose," the service said in a release Monday.
> 
> "Various cloth items worn as face coverings -- scarves, T-shirts, neck gaiters, neck warmers, balaclavas, etc. -- may be acceptable as long as they are functional, cleaned and maintained," the release adds.
> 
> The Navy will also require face coverings to present a subdued appearance. The makeshift masks must cover the person from nose to chin, but cannot fully cover the face like a ski mask, according to a Navy-wide administrative message.
> 
> The masks must be tied behind the head or fastened by ear loops, states the guidance, posted Sunday. Masks should be made out of "multiple layers of fabric if the material is cloth," but should not restrict sailors' breathing in any way.
> 
> "Until official uniform face coverings are produced and implemented, personnel are authorized to wear medical or construction type masks, or other cloth covering such as bandanas, scarfs, etc. When in doubt, priority will be compliance with the [Centers for Disease Control] guidance for function over appearance or preferred date of implementation," the Navy guidance adds.
> 
> It was not immediately clear when or if the Navy will require sailors to wear "official Navy" face masks as part of the standard service uniform. There was also no timeline for such items to be manufactured.
> 
> At least one Marine Corps command is offering guidance on fit and look for masks.
> 
> Marine Corps Combat Service Support Schools, the command that develops training for combat support military occupational specialties, posted a photo tutorial on its Facebook page on how to make a mask out of a T-shirt with no sewing required.
> 
> The command will require troops at Camp Johnson, North Carolina, to make their masks out of olive green T-shirts, according to the post.
> 
> While the Army has yet to publish explicit guidance, the Maryland National Guard released guidance for soldiers to wear masks that are "black, brown, olive green or tan in color," according to a memo obtained by Military.com.
> 
> "Masks will not have printed wording, logos, profanity, racist, demeaning or derogatory logos, script, or imagery," the memo states.
> 
> The Guard units, which are part of many deployed in areas where there are widespread COVID-19 cases, have been granted the use of commercial, medical-grade masks, the memo said.
> 
> "Leaders are asked to use their best judgment when it comes to color, fit and design of face masks and approach this as a force protection issue," it added.
> 
> The U.S. Coast Guard, part of the Department of Homeland Security, advised coasties to use DIY face masks. It instructed them to store the masks appropriately to avoid contaminating others, and wash them as often as needed before wearing them again, according to the service's policy.
> 
> "Homemade and do-it-yourself cloth masks or personally-procured [coverings] are the preferred option for non-operational use," according to the Coast Guard guidance. "Face coverings are approved for wear in uniform," but members should strive to wear masks "of neutral solid coloring -- e.g. navy blue, black, gray or white," it said.
> 
> Other colors and patterns are permitted "if they are workplace appropriate," officials said.
> 
> The service stressed that, due to the nationwide shortage of personal protective equipment, surgical masks should be worn "as a last resort" and only with commanders' authorization.
> 
> "N95 respirators shall not be used for this purpose," the guidance adds.



There is a graphic and a short video at the link providing instruction on how to easily convert a T-shirt into a military acceptable face covering.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYC says their paramedics responded to 2,192 cases of deaths at home between March 20th and April 5th, or about 130 a day, an almost 400 percent increase from the same time period last year.
> 
> How many of those were Coronavirus deaths? NYC has no idea.
> 
> 
> And, if you die "home alone", there's a good chance nobody immediately called 9-1-1.



The death at home cases may be worse then that. 

Twitter message from Mark D. Levine (Chair of New York City Council health committee.
Representing District 7, Uptown Manhattan (Washington Heights, West Harlem, UWS).)



> @MarkLevineNYC
> 
> Grieving families report calling as many as half a dozen funeral homes and finding none that can handle their deceased loved ones.
> 
> Cemeteries are not able to handle the number of burial requests and are turning most down. 4/
> ·
> Apr 6
> It’s not just deaths in hospitals which are up. On an average day before this crisis there were 20-25 deaths at home in NYC. Now in the midst of this pandemic the number is 200-215. *Every day*.



Link


----------



## mariomike

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The death at home cases may be worse then that.



There's also the psychological effect of informing 9-1-1 callers, in the family home, that the patient is deceased, and no, you will not be transporting. It's hard on everybody.   

A lot easier to transport "for a check-up". Let the hospital give them the bad news.


----------



## Jarnhamar

US Military sure seems obsessed about mask colour.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Underway said:
			
		

> Housecats can get coronavirus. It's common enough that they get immunized for it.  However, the strain that COVID 19 is doesn't necessarily translate over to cats.  Research is still ongoing. There is some possible evidence from a very small sample size that it can be transmitted to cats, but no evidence it goes the other way.



Yes, there are articles circulating from different sources that other animals have been affected also, human to animal. But, like you said, no evidence that it’s going the other way. Overall, consensus is more studies/research required.

 Pets make great quarantine buddies, but can they get coronavirus? Here’s what we know



> ...A tiger at the Bronx Zoo is the first animal in the United States to test positive for the new coronavirus. Veterinarians tested the 4-year-old tiger after several lions and tigers at the New York City zoo “developed a dry cough,” officials said.
> 
> If lions and tigers can catch the virus, what about cats and dogs?
> 
> There have been several cases of house pets testing positive for COVID-19 in other countries, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
> 
> There’s not a lot of research on if or how COVID-19 can infect animals as the world is coming to grips with the global pandemic. “We are still learning about this virus,” the CDC said, “and it appears that it can spread from people to animals in some situations.”
> 
> There are cases of cats and dogs (and tigers) testing positive for the virus after coming in contact with a human who has the virus, but there is no evidence that shows household pets could spread COVID-19 back to people.
> 
> “Studies are underway to better understand the susceptibility of different animal species to the COVID-19 virus and to assess infection dynamics in susceptible animal species,” according to the World Organization for Animal Health. “Currently, there is no evidence to suggest that animals infected by humans are playing a role in the spread of COVID-19. Human outbreaks are driven by person to person contact.”
> 
> What we know about dogs and coronavirus
> 
> The first dog to test positive for COVID-19 was in Hong Kong in late February. Public health officials in the semi-autonomous island off China said a dog whose owner had the virus tested “weak positive” and was put in quarantine.
> 
> A second dog later tested positive for the virus, but it does not appear they ever transmitted the virus to humans, according to the American Kennel Club.
> 
> While many people are stuck at home and dogs are likely enjoying all the extra attention, public health officials say sick people should not snuggle with their pups until researchers know more about the virus.
> 
> Chinese public health officials cautioned pet owners during the outbreak: “If pets go out and have contact with an infected person, they have the chance to get infected. By then, pets need to be isolated. In addition to people, we should be careful with other mammals especially pets,” the AKC quoted.
> 
> Hong Kong public health officials tested other pets, but concluded, “These findings indicate that dogs and cats are not infected easily with this virus, and there is no evidence that they play a role in the spread of the virus,” according to the AKC.
> 
> What about cats?
> 
> Cats are probably not nearly as excited to have their humans home as dogs.
> 
> Feline coronavirus is pretty common, according to the Cleveland Clinic, but the new virus is different. Cats can catch COVID-19 from humans, the hospital said.
> 
> “While research has shown that the virus can spread from cat to cat, there’s no evidence at this time to support that the virus can become widespread among house cats or that the virus can be transmitted from cats to humans,” according to the Cleveland Clinic.
> 
> University of Illinois veterinarian Karen Terio told The New York Times that ”given the number of people in this country that have been infected with the virus and have become ill, and the number of people in this country that own domestic cats, it seems fairly improbable that cats are an important source of the virus for people if the first case we’re diagnosing it in is a tiger.”...



Full article:
 https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article241797581.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> US Military sure seems obsessed about mask colour.



Wait until they find out that the guys with beards will defeat the purpose of the mask


----------



## Jarnhamar

Heard from someone in Borden that sleeping accommodations are organized by section and male and females aren't segregated. I was surprised but impressed to hear that.

Because of manning issues I think we get in the habit of just throwing whoever is every handy at problems and move away from section integrity. I hope we pay attention to keeping sections or platoons working together as to better isolate and curb anyone exposed to the virus.

Also hope this doesn't turn into a "look girls are helping too!" photo op, common sense seems to be abundant with Op Laser so far.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Heard from someone in Borden that sleeping accommodations are organized by section and male and females aren't segregated. I was surprised but impressed to hear that.



It's OK, we all saw that movie... what was it now.... Starship Troopers, right?


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's OK, we all saw that movie... what was it now.... Starship Troopers, right?


A little less controversial arrangement than The Forever War  ;D


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post:



> “Argo”, or, How the 1980 Canadian Caper in Tehran Helped two Canadians Escape Turkmenistan 40 Years Later in the Time of COVID-19
> 
> Further to this 2013 piece in the Globe and Mail by my friend Roger Lucy, who was at the Canadian embassy in Iran during the 1979-80 hostage-taking crisis that followed the assault on the US embassy,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehran in 1979 was stranger than Hollywood’s fiction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a reverberation of those events these days...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/07/argo-or-how-the-1980-canadian-caper-in-tehran-helped-two-canadians-escape-turkmenistan-40-years-later-in-the-time-of-covid-19/
> 
> [That's Roger, at right in portion of photo that is immediately visible:]
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## dimsum

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> US Military sure seems obsessed about mask colour.



Why let a little something like a pandemic get in the way of buttons and bows?  

These guys are also the same folks who distinguish their PT reflective belts by rank    :facepalm:



> Help me out here r/army. What are the meanings of different color PT belts at your unit? I have heard of at least three different SOPs and I'm curious what other units do.
> My unit does:
> 
> yellow - junior enlisted
> 
> green - NCOs
> 
> white - junior Os
> 
> blue - Os



https://www.reddit.com/r/army/comments/2z8ar9/pt_belts/


----------



## mariomike

Drone video shows a crew of NYC inmates in protective gear burying coffins in a mass grave on Hart Island.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/drone-video-may-show-inmates-burying-coffins-on-nycs-hart-island/


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Heard from someone in Borden that sleeping accommodations are organized by section and male and females aren't segregated. I was surprised but impressed to hear that.



I can understand why they are doing it but doubt it's necessary... I guarantee it will only take one person to say something and it will change.  This time next week if it's still happening, I'll be surprised.


----------



## Kirkhill

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> As an employer I have instructed HR that any employee in the reserves will have their jobs protected.



Bruce - I appreciate this is off topic but 

Spencer - thanks for doing what you're doing but just to clarify - the "Employer" I was referencing was Her Majesty's Government who have a continuing inability to comprehend the purpose of organizing available manpower in time of crisis.  

We're looking at 25% unemployment here in Alberta.  That is a lot of potential "Volunteers" to organize (and pay).


----------



## mariomike

Cardiac arrest calls.


----------



## midget-boyd91

mariomike said:
			
		

> Cardiac arrest calls.



These must be for cardiac arrest calls that happen already inside the hospital? 
I've never heard 62% survival rate for cardiac arrests (their numbers in 2019).


----------



## mariomike

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> These must be for cardiac arrest calls that happen already inside the hospital?



It says FDNY at the bottom of the screen. 
https://twitter.com/JustinBrannan/status/1247638042870939650

FDNY only responds to outside of hospital 9-1-1 calls.


----------



## Spencer100

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A little less controversial arrangement than The Forever War  ;D



Love the reference!


----------



## midget-boyd91

mariomike said:
			
		

> It says FDNY at the bottom of the screen.
> 
> FDNY only responds to outside of hospital 9-1-1 calls.



I noticed that too... but it's an incredibly high number for a survival rate.  Kudos to FDNY if it's accurate though.


----------



## mariomike

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> I noticed that too... but it's an incredibly high number for a survival rate.  Kudos to FDNY if it's accurate though.







> NYC cardiac calls skyrocket as coronavirus fear grips city
> 
> I personally responded to 6 cardiac calls in a row the other night & these are all serious & critical patients. In one case the patient was on the phone, talking to us about minor symptoms & 5 minutes later he was in the middle of a full cardiac episode.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-cardiac-calls-jump-in-the-city-20200407-tzlxcqaqs5a2flpnlmhsffnyjm-story.html
> 
> Daily cardiac calls have more than tripled in recent weeks, from 94 on March 20 to 322 on Sunday, FDNY statistics show. Compared to a year ago, the number of calls has more than quadrupled, from a maximum 73 calls per day, the data shows.
> 
> Cardiac-related deaths counted by the FDNY have also increased, from 45 on March 20 to an unprecedented 241 on Sunday. A year ago, FDNY counted about 25 cardiac deaths each day.
> 
> EMTs on the street are stunned by the sheer number of cardiac calls they have received in recent days.
> 
> The harrowing numbers come as new rules were put in place last week directing EMTs and paramedics not to bring flatlining cardiac patients who can’t be resuscitated in the field to hospital emergency rooms for further care.
> 
> In a pre-COVID-19 world, they might see one or two cardiac arrest calls per shift. These days, they are attending to as many as thirteen cardiac arrest calls per shift.
> https://www.salon.com/2020/04/07/first-responders-suspect-crazy-increase-in-cardiac-deaths-in-nyc-is-linked-to-covid-19/ …


----------



## Kilted

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Heard from someone in Borden that sleeping accommodations are organized by section and male and females aren't segregated. I was surprised but impressed to hear that.



That was pretty normal in till Op Honour. I remember on a joint ex with Americans there was one American soldier that was terrified of the fact that the one female soldier was going to sleep in the same tent as us (the tent was big enough to fit two platoons).


----------



## brihard

Kilted said:
			
		

> That was pretty normal in till Op Honour. I remember on a joint ex with Americans there was one American soldier that was terrified of the fact that the one female soldier was going to sleep in the same tent as us (the tent was big enough to fit two platoons).



Hell, I remember my PLQ Infantry course in 2007, we had a woman in our room in P-50 for the whole 9 weeks. No issues whatsoever, everyone acted professional.


----------



## mariomike

Kilted said:
			
		

> I remember on a joint ex with Americans there was one American soldier that was terrified of the fact that the one female soldier was going to sleep in the same tent as us (the tent was big enough to fit two platoons).



I wonder what he would do if partnered with a woman. Just the two of you. Without a chaperone or anybody else. Cooped up together from 1900 - 0700.


----------



## dimsum

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wonder what he would do if partnered with a woman. Just the two of you. Without a chaperone or anybody else. Cooped up together from 1900 - 0700.



Get permission from Mother?


----------



## mariomike

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Get permission from Mother?



It wasn't Mom I was worried about.  

Oh yes! Now, the next day, I get the "Mother" reference. I was a bit slow on the uptake. hahaha


----------



## Colin Parkinson

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wonder what he would do if partnered with a woman. Just the two of you. Without a chaperone or anybody else. Cooped up together from 1900 - 0700.



Perhaps he was more worried about what his command would think or had been conditioned to the idea that one wrong word could get him into a pile of poop.


----------



## stellarpanther

Kilted said:
			
		

> That was pretty normal in till Op Honour. I remember on a joint ex with Americans there was one American soldier that was terrified of the fact that the one female soldier was going to sleep in the same tent as us (the tent was big enough to fit two platoons).


Where was it normal? Going all the way back to 1988 in a Reserve unit in Windsor, it wasn't allowed.  Basic in 2004 it wasn't allowed.


----------



## CBH99

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Where was it normal? Going all the way back to 1988 in a Reserve unit in Windsor, it wasn't allowed.  Basic in 2004 it wasn't allowed.




I have to echo the other members.  Not a single BMQ course I was an instructor on, and not a single course I took, ever segregated male and female soldiers.

Everybody acted professional.  Nobody cared.  Was never an issue, and I got in back in...2000?


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Where was it normal? Going all the way back to 1988 in a Reserve unit in Windsor, it wasn't allowed.  Basic in 2004 it wasn't allowed.



Yeah, but in 1988 it was still a quite new thing and vaginas were strange and scary. After some years of realizing that there were very few of the anticipated problems, things mostly chilled out and got in line with reality


----------



## mariomike

NYC officials will begin to count suspected COVID-19 deaths of people who die at home.



> Death Count Expected To Soar As NYC Says It Will Begin Reporting Probable COVID Deaths In Addition To Confirmed Ones
> 
> https://gothamist.com/news/death-count-expected-soar-nyc-says-it-will-begin-reporting-suspected-covid-deaths-addition-confirmed-ones
> 
> "Out of the 12 cardiac arrests I did on Sunday 10 had COVID symptoms... Nobody made it back. That’s going on all over the city." FDNY paramedic


----------



## daftandbarmy

NHS staff to be offered mental health support for Covid-19 'shell shock'

Long-term programme of access to specialists, online therapy and group counselling sessions

All of the NHS’s 1.4 million staff will be offered free mental health support from Friday to help them cope with the “shell shock” of tackling Covid-19.

NHS staff will be given free access to a programme of more than 1,500 specialists, online therapy and group counselling sessions. They will also receive practical and financial assistance as well as specialist bereavement, psychological support and help with sleep problems.

“I don’t want to use war language, but when the crisis hits, we are likely to see NHS staff suffering symptoms similar to shell shock,” said Lucy Warner, chief executive of NHS Practitioner Health, which has set up the mental health side of the wellbeing programme.

Warner said this was a long-term programme. “Staff might not need this most badly in the immediate term, when the crisis hits because they’ll be so busy. But three to six months down the line … staff are likely to suffer symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/08/nhs-staff-mental-health-shell-shock-tackling-covid-19-coronavirus


----------



## macarena

Mates, may I ask you if it would be interesting to spread some infos about a medecine being used by USA before (as published by President Trump), and being used actually by Brazil (as omitted by Sao Paulo state on this while, due to politics interests)?
A high staff doctor, an old, has been cured in few days but he doesn't admit the medecine he have take. It makes clear that the interest is not to allow normal people to have the same benefits.
I wonder if we spread some news about it, then the canadian staff could study it and make use of such medecine, in order to save people.


----------



## brihard

macarena said:
			
		

> Mates, may I ask you if it would be interesting to spread some infos about a medecine being used by USA before (as published by President Trump), and being used actually by Brazil (as omitted by Sao Paulo state on this while, due to politics interests)?
> A high staff doctor, an old, has been cured in few days but he doesn't admit the medecine he have take. It makes clear that the interest is not to allow normal people to have the same benefits.
> I wonder if we spread some news about it, then the canadian staff could study it and make use of such medecine, in order to save people.



No. Pharmaceuticals are to be left to the professionals, and a ton of ACTUAL studies are being conducted as we speak by people with decades of experience and the qualifications to conduct them. I have no more place advising on the design and construction of a spacecraft than any politician lacking a solid background in microbiology research has trying to tell professionals and experts how to treat patients with a disease.

The entire developed world's medical community is heavily invested in cracking this one. It's not going to be Space-Clown-420 from Reddit or Tim from Facebook that somehow unlock the key to 'getting the word out'. It'll be public health experts, properly informed by expert researchers, who determine and promulgate the most effective and rational courses of action; the tendency of certain political figures to make things up on a national platform notwithstanding.

Edited- the start of my reply was unnecessarily harsh.


----------



## Remius

Remember that time, when people thought mercury pills could cure and prevent diseases.  Yeah...


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> Remember that time, when people thought mercury pills could cure and prevent diseases.  Yeah...



"A night with Venus, a lifetime with Mercury."

As COVID-19 ravages NYC and the 9-1-1 call volume goes through the roof, a family looks to find out what happened to their grandmother. Paramedics took her to Jamaica Hospital ( Queens ) but 'she never arrived'. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/07/nyregion/jamaica-hospital-queens-maria-correa-coronavirus.html


----------



## kkwd

Brihard said:
			
		

> No, bugger off. Pharmaceuticals are to be left to the professionals, and a ton of ACTUAL studies are being conducted as we speak by people with decades of experience and the qualifications to conduct them. I have no more place advising on the design and construction of a spacecraft than any politician lacking a solid background in microbiology research has trying to tell professionals and experts how to treat patients with a disease.
> 
> The entire developed world's medical community is heavily invested in cracking this one. It's not going to be Space-Clown-420 from Reddit or Tim from Facebook that somehow unlock the key to 'getting the word out'. It'll be public health experts, properly informed by expert researchers, who determine and promulgate the most effective and rational courses of action; the tendency of certain political figures to make things up on a national platform notwithstanding.



As far as I know no politician has written a script for these drugs. Seems to me it has been doctors only. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell doctors no, you can't give that to your patient. Off-label use of medications is extremely common. The drugs mentioned are very old and proven safe, you can't possibly compare it to mercury. I know it is common to have a hysterical reaction to everything that comes out of Trump's mouth. Don't look at Trump, look at what the professionals are doing in their everyday practice taking care of their patients.


----------



## brihard

kkwd said:
			
		

> As far as I know no politician has written a script for these drugs. Seems to me it has been doctors only. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell doctors no, you can't give that to your patient. Off-label use of medications is extremely common. The drugs mentioned are very old and proven safe, you can't possibly compare it to mercury. I know it is common to have a hysterical reaction to everything that comes out of Trump's mouth. Don't look at Trump, look at what the professionals are doing in their everyday practice taking care of their patients.



1. Yes, only doctors have written scripts. There are indeed some doing so speculatively based on pure anecdotes that are as of yet unproven. I accept that in cases of desperation this will happen.

2. I made no mention of mercury, that was someone else.

3. Hydroxychloroquine is far from harmless. While it is safe in many patients and is effective for indicated conditions, It's contraindicated with potentially lethal side effects in people with certain cardiac conditions. More importantly, it's also in significant demand already for some autoimmune conditions such as Lupus. People who genuinely depend on this medication every day now face shortages based on in-considered advocacy of an unproven medication by people unqualified to do so. It may well prove to be effective for amelioration of SARS-CoV-2, but that is by no means settled yet and it is premature for government agencies to be urged to act on executive whim in lieu of proven science that is presently and aggressively being pursued.

My issue here is with randoms all over the internet pushing something they don't understand, are ignorant of the risks of, and utterly lack the expertise to have a qualified opinion on. A ton of high priced help that is eminently qualified to make these evaluations is working hard on that at this moment. Let them do their jobs, not have to respond to someone's helmet fire because one poorly run trial (that in normal circumstances would not come close to meriting publication based on its flawed methodology and reporting) starts a mild hysteria.


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:
			
		

> As far as I know no politician has written a script for these drugs. Seems to me it has been doctors only. I wouldn't want to be the one to tell doctors no, you can't give that to your patient. Off-label use of medications is extremely common. The drugs mentioned are very old and proven safe, you can't possibly compare it to mercury. I know it is common to have a hysterical reaction to everything that comes out of Trump's mouth. Don't look at Trump, look at what the professionals are doing in their everyday practice taking care of their patients.



Professional likes Dr Fauci or doctor Birks right?


----------



## Quirky

Brihard said:
			
		

> My issue here is with randoms all over the internet pushing something they don't understand, are ignorant of the risks of, and utterly lack the expertise to have a qualified opinion on.



I'm not condoning spreading various drug use for this at all. However I find it ironic that our own Minister of Health has no formal training in medicine whatsoever is the person we are listening to at the podium everyday. Graphic designer out of high school, went to Lakewood College for BA then a Masters in Public Administration at UVic. In the US, the surgeon general is an actual doctor. I don't listen to randoms on the internet, but these so called "experts" aren't exactly experts in their own right. You could argue she is just a messenger, but in the end she isn't qualified to answer medical-based questions either, all I hear from her on a daily basis is "wash your hands" "cough in your elbow" "practice social distancing". We don't need an unqualified, overpaid minister making those statements. She is utterly useless in her position.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brihard said:
			
		

> My issue here is with randoms all over the internet pushing something they don't understand, are ignorant of the risks of, and utterly lack the expertise to have a qualified opinion on.



I'll ask you this, why is COVID-19 special and exempt from uniformed internet "experts" pushing a specific treatment? We have a whole system of homeopathic "doctors", a legal requirement for access to medical marijuana that can literally cure everything from arthritis to PTSD and the billion dollar essential oil industry. That's just in Canada where we have some more stringent rules about advertising prescription medication.

Specifically for hydrocloroquine, Dr. Fauci himself even said it was promising and that they were allowing off-label use and accelerating the process for controlled clinical trials to put science behind anecdotal evidence but he wouldn't commit to saying it works until those trials are done. If people take that statement to go out and buy hydrocloroquine to use without a doctor's supervision then perhaps that's just Darwanism at work, much like the Spring Breakers in Florida who are now getting sick and ending up in ICUs...


----------



## Kirkhill

Saw some chappie wanting to organize all the world's vaccine chasing programmes to come up with the one perfect cure.  

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/we-need-a-big-science-approach-to-finding-a-corona-vaccine

Not a fan.

I'm happy enough with doctors all over the place chasing their own plans and chatting among themselves.  I trust that the doctor who is saving most patients will end up influencing his colleagues.  

Right now the world comprises couple of hundred test environments.  Some, like Sweden, are still operating like broth in an Ehrlenmeyer.







Others, are trying to emulate a microtiter plate by dividing the broth and locking it up into a bunch of small cells.






And there is everything in between.

A generalized reporting system is probably not a bad idea - but centralized control of experimentation would be a very bad idea.

This applies equally to tests for detecting active SARS-Cov2, treatments for the multitude of symptoms and tests for determining who has been innoculated and is now safe - or infectious.

None of the above is yet clear.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:
			
		

> I'm not condoning spreading various drug use for this at all. However I find it ironic that our own Minister of Health has no formal training in medicine whatsoever is the person we are listening to at the podium everyday. Graphic designer out of high school, went to Lakewood College for BA then a Masters in Public Administration at UVic. In the US, the surgeon general is an actual doctor. I don't listen to randoms on the internet, but these so called "experts" aren't exactly experts in their own right. You could argue she is just a messenger, but in the end she isn't qualified to answer medical-based questions either, all I hear from her on a daily basis is "wash your hands" "cough in your elbow" "practice social distancing". We don't need an unqualified, overpaid minister making those statements. She is utterly useless in her position.



What's ironic?  The US Secretary of Health and Human Services isn't a medical doctor either (lawyer).  That said, does the Minister need a medical degree in order to convey what her qualified subordinates are recommending?

The Canadian equivalent to the US Surgeon General is the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, and she is indeed a medical doctor and has been front-and-centre.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> Professional likes Dr Fauci or doctor Birks right?



Apparently, Dr. Fauci requires a security detail.

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00vLTJmNnZOxywnOXxkPQw9EK9iyQ%3A1586369261534&source=hp&ei=7RKOXuewHpfbtAaUpqrYAg&q=fauci+security&oq=fauci+&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgBMgQIIxAnMgQIIxAnMgQIABBDMgUIABCDATICCAAyAggAMgUIABCDATICCAAyBAgAEEMyCggAEIMBEBQQhwI6CAgAEIMBEJECOgUIABCRAjoHCAAQgwEQQzoHCAAQFBCHAjoECAAQCkodCBcSGTBnMTk0ZzE0NmcyMTZnMTU4ZzEzNmcxMjJKEQgYEg0wZzFnMWcxZzFnMWcxULIMWMscYKZAaAFwAHgAgAGCAYgB9QSSAQMzLjOYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab#spf=1586369271918


----------



## dimsum

mariomike said:
			
		

> Apparently, Dr. Fauci requires a security detail.



It's a pretty sad state of affairs when he's getting death threats.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It's a pretty sad state of affairs when he's getting death threats.



Seems like it's time to quote Orwell:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It's a pretty sad state of affairs when he's getting death threats.



People get death threats for wearing MAGA hats. Death threats seem like common currency online these days.


----------



## tomahawk6

Whats been clear is that the modeling being used is way off. The numbers keep getting revised. The President with regard to the economy he cant depend on what he is being told so reopening the economy may be nothing more than a gut feeling.


----------



## MilEME09

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Whats been clear is that the modeling being used is way off. The numbers keep getting revised. The President with regard to the economy he cant depend on what he is being told so reopening the economy may be nothing more than a gut feeling.



The only thing I agree with trump right now is holding a fire to the feet of the WHO and China, who seem to walk hand in hand, and advise the opposite of what countries ended up doing. Not to mention china horded supplies and is now selling it back as if it's some sort of savior.


----------



## dapaterson

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Whats been clear is that the modeling being used is way off. The numbers keep getting revised. The President with regard to the economy he cant depend on what he is being told so reopening the economy may be nothing more than a gut feeling.



Models change as available data changes.  The intent of actions like social distancing / shutdowns was to have precisely this impact: the forecasts are much less bad because of the actions taken.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *French aircraft carrier heads home early due to possible COVID-19 cases*
> 
> France’s flagship aircraft carrier the Charles de Gaulle is returning to its home port early after about 40 crew members showed signs of COVID-19 symptoms, the armed forces ministry said on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-military/french-aircraft-carrier-heads-home-early-due-to-possible-covid-19-cases-idUSKBN21Q0SY


----------



## stellarpanther

Quirky said:
			
		

> I'm not condoning spreading various drug use for this at all. However I find it ironic that our own Minister of Health has no formal training in medicine whatsoever is the person we are listening to at the podium everyday. Graphic designer out of high school, went to Lakewood College for BA then a Masters in Public Administration at UVic. In the US, the surgeon general is an actual doctor. I don't listen to randoms on the internet, but these so called "experts" aren't exactly experts in their own right. You could argue she is just a messenger, but in the end she isn't qualified to answer medical-based questions either, all I hear from her on a daily basis is "wash your hands" "cough in your elbow" "practice social distancing". We don't need an unqualified, overpaid minister making those statements. She is utterly useless in her position.


IMO, because a lot of people listen to these Ministers for Health  for information, that position should be required to be a doctor.  I wasn't sure if you were referring to the Federal Minister of Health, but the minister of Health Minister for Ontario also isn't a doctor.


----------



## stellarpanther

Maybe I've just become untrusting or politicians over time but I wouldn't be surprised if these lower predictions aren't fabricated to support Trump's wish to quickly open the economy.


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> IMO, because a lot of people listen to these Ministers for Health  for information, that position should be required to be a doctor.  I wasn't sure if you were referring to the Federal Minister of Health, but the minister of Health Minister for Ontario also isn't a doctor.



We have a chief medical officer.  So does every province.  She is the one doing all the talking about anything medical.  She is the one they defer to.  Not like down south where we have dueling banjo briefings.  No one argues with her or adds their two cents after she speaks.


----------



## OldSolduer

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> IMO, because a lot of people listen to these Ministers for Health  for information, that position should be required to be a doctor.  I wasn't sure if you were referring to the Federal Minister of Health, but the minister of Health Minister for Ontario also isn't a doctor.



So by your reasoning the MND should be a former military officer? Doctors can be wrong as well.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> We have a chief medical officer.  So does every province.  She is the one doing all the talking about anything medical.  She is the one they defer to.  Not like down south where we have dueling banjo briefings.  No one argues with her or adds their two cents after she speaks.



 :goodpost:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Why?   Doctors aren't gods, they don't know all.   I guess transportation Minister needs to be a truck driver??   Head of OLG needs to be a compulsive gambler?

They are political posts, they shouldn't be expected to be experts, they should listen to the experts below them and bring that info forthwith in a way Joe/Jane Average can understand.


----------



## stellarpanther

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> So by your reasoning the MND should be a former military officer? Doctors can be wrong as well.


Actually, no.  I used to work in COS VCDS and the way it was once explained to me was the MND is a political position who obviously carries weight but doesn't get into the normal functioning of the military. He informs the CDS what the government wants and it's left for the CDS to implement how things will be done.
.


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Why?   Doctors aren't gods, they don't know all.   I guess transportation Minister needs to be a truck driver??   Head of OLG needs to be a compulsive gambler?
> 
> They are political posts, they shouldn't be expected to be experts, they should listen to the experts below them and bring that info forthwith in a way Joe/Jane Average can understand.



Like a lot of things, just because it's the way it is, doesn't mean it's right and this type attitude is why nothing ever changes for the better, IMO.


----------



## Mick

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Actually, no.  I used to work in COS VCDS and the way it was once explained to me was the MND is a political position who obviously carries weight but doesn't get into the normal functioning of the military. He informs the CDS what the government wants and it's left for the CDS to implement how things will be done.



Same idea for any minister of the crown - they don't require personal expertise in their portfolio - they rely on the advice of the experts in the department, much like MND and CDS, or Health Minister and Chief Public Health Officer.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Mayor of Vancouver has just appealed to the Federal Government for a $200m grant to keep city services operating due to a huge drop in revenue from property taxes, and other sources of revenue.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Having a doc as Minister isn't automatically helpful.  If the Minister were a former GP who quit after a few years to enter politics, I wouldn't grant the mantle of "expert" when the subject is epidemiology any more than I grant the mantle of "expert" to a *nix admin who decides to speak up on Windows matters.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> "Staff might not need this most badly in the immediate term, when the crisis hits because they’ll be so busy. But three to six months down the line … staff are likely to suffer symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome.”
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/08/nhs-staff-mental-health-shell-shock-tackling-covid-19-coronavirus



Likely to be some need of stress relief on our "side of the pond" as well.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> IMO, because a lot of people listen to these Ministers for Health  for information, that position should be required to be a doctor.  I wasn't sure if you were referring to the Federal Minister of Health, but the minister of Health Minister for Ontario also isn't a doctor.



You haven't thought this through. Who's to say that in any given election there will necessary be a medical doctor among those elected to the party that wins? And if there is, you propose that if they're the only one they automatically get a major cabinet post regardless of political or governmental experience, or the ability to actually run a portfolio

Consider also that all MDs are not created equal; you might get a psychiatrist. An anaesthesiologist. A cosmetic surgeon. A pediatrician. They may not be any more equipped (or potentially less so) than someone with a solid math and statistics background from some entirely different field to understand the implication of concerns brought forward by professional, life-long epidemiologists. It's like saying MND has to be former military, but you'll roll the dice and if in a given election the victorious party elects a former PRes infantry Sgt, a guy who did 15 years in the RCAF as a navigator and got out as a major, a guy who was a sapper for four years thirty years ago, and a 2 year Public Affairs Officer, that one of them would have to by default be MND. I hope you can see the absurdity of this.

We have a cabinet in order to delegate portfolio roles - span of control, and all that - and then each portfolio has a Deputy Minister who's a senior public servant, and who has a team of ADMs and Directors under them, in turn managing branches of the organization that each hold their own niche areas of expertise. As long as the political appointees listen to and seriously consider the best professional advice of the experienced professionals, that works better than assuming that having the right letters after your name 15 years ago qualifies you to speak authoritative on the work of those who do a more current and specialized job.


----------



## Kirkhill

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Whats been clear is that the modeling being used is way off. The numbers keep getting revised. The President with regard to the economy he cant depend on what he is being told so reopening the economy may be nothing more than a gut feeling.



Its still too early in the game.  They are still trying to find the target let alone fix it and come up with a plan.

It's Recce's game just now and the rest of us are in hurry up and wait mode with more than an dash of "great coats on, great coats off".  

 ;D ;D


----------



## Infanteer

Brihard said:
			
		

> Consider also that all MDs are not created equal;



Q: What do you call the guy who finished last in medical school.

A:  Doctor.


----------



## Kirkhill

Quick question?

What happens when individual Provinces start breaking free from Lock Down?

Low risk Provinces might decide to move before Alberta, BC, Ontario and Quebec.

Perhaps BC and Alberta decide they have got things sufficiently under control that they risk loosening up parts of their communities and economies before Ontario and Quebec.

Perhaps Ont and Quebec decide to open up their rural economy before they open up Toronto and Montreal.

Will there be a net tendency in the future to de-urbanize?  Have more people decide to adopt a lower density life?  More private vehicles? Less public transport?


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's like saying MND has to be former military, but you'll roll the dice and if in a given election the victorious party elects a former PRes infantry Sgt, a guy who did 15 years in the RCAF as a navigator and got out as a major, a guy who was a sapper for four years thirty years ago, and a 2 year Public Affairs Officer, that one of them would have to by default be MND. I hope you can see the absurdity of this.



_ALL_ former PRes infantry Sgts are absurd.


----------



## stellarpanther

mick said:
			
		

> Same idea for any minister of the crown - they don't require personal expertise in their portfolio - they rely on the advice of the experts in the department, much like MND and CDS, or Health Minister and Chief Public Health Officer.



I respect everyone's opinion but I disagree with some. Doctor's are not god's and they don't know everything but when people are asking them questions and looking to them for guidance and leadership, they should have some personal experience to base their answer or opinion on rather than just what they might have been briefed on.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I respect everyone's opinion but I disagree with some. Doctor's are not god's and they don't know everything but when people are asking them questions and looking to them for guidance and leadership, they should have some personal experience to base their answer or opinion on rather than just what they might have been briefed on.


Wow, what's your criteria for PM then? They get asked questions about everything...

And FWIW, one of the worst MNDs I've seen in my lengthy career was someone who retired as a BGen.


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> _ALL_ former PRes infantry Sgts are absurd.



_Especially_ former PRes infantry Sgts.


----------



## stellarpanther

This is becoming a waste of time... I once mentioned this site at work about a year ago and was told by my Capt, that he doesn't use it anymore because it's either  people that are not even military, ex military with an old way of doing things Reservists who are more gung ho than Reg F but only want to do it part time, or people that will argue about anything instead of trying to look at it from the posters point of view. I think it's a combination of all of it.  I think I get it now.  Most people I know don't even no about this site.  My personal belief is that it's a combination of everything I was told but mostly made up of gung ho Reservist and other older Reg F Combat arms types that I have an entirely different outlook on support trades such as FSA/HRA.  I read more military jargon on here than I actually see and hear at work even when I worked with the RCD for a few months.


----------



## dapaterson

Singapore is having a second surge of infection.

https://twitter.com/ChorzempaMartin/status/1247893963639386117


----------



## stellarpanther

The Pope says this could be natures response to climate crisis.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/europe/pope-francis-coronavirus-nature-response-intl/index.html


----------



## Mick

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This is becoming a waste of time... I once mentioned this site at work about a year ago and was told by my Capt, that he doesn't use it anymore because it's either  people that are not even military, ex military with an old way of doing things Reservists who are more gung ho than Reg F but only want to do it part time, or people that will argue about anything instead of trying to look at it from the posters point of view. I think it's a combination of all of it.  I think I get it now.  Most people I know don't even no about this site.  My personal belief is that it's a combination of everything I was told but mostly made up of gung ho Reservist and other older Reg F Combat arms types that I have an entirely different outlook on support trades such as FSA/HRA.  I read more military jargon on here than I actually see and hear at work even when I worked with the RCD for a few months.



No one has attacked you.  People disagree with your assertion that health ministers need medical qualifications.  This is the nature of discussion.  Points and counter-points.

People have politely explained their reasons why they disagree.  You yourself have pointed to the relationship between the MND and the CDS (and that the former need not have a omilitary background to be an effective minister), but you seem to be unable to admit that a similar conclusion can be made with respect to a provincial or federal health minister.

Again, the Health Minister is not making uninformed or off-the-cuff statements or pronouncements.  Regardless of her background, education, or job history, she is presenting the information and advocating the action as recommended to her based upon the expert advice of medical professionals in her department.

No one has attacked you - they / we are simply responding to you in the discussion that you have chosen to contribute to.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This is becoming a waste of time... I once mentioned this site at work about a year ago and was told by my Capt, that he doesn't use it anymore because it's either  people that are not even military, ex military with an old way of doing things Reservists who are more gung ho than Reg F but only want to do it part time, or people that will argue about anything instead of trying to look at it from the posters point of view. I think it's a combination of all of it.  I think I get it now.  Most people I know don't even no about this site.  My personal belief is that it's a combination of everything I was told but mostly made up of gung ho Reservist and other older Reg F Combat arms types that I have an entirely different outlook on support trades such as FSA/HRA.  I read more military jargon on here than I actually see and hear at work even when I worked with the RCD for a few months.



On several threads you've come on very strong on subjects where you seem to be lacking depth of knowledge, and that has probably rubbed a few of us the wrong way. On this site there are quite a number of people with both broad and deep knowledge, and generally speaking you're going to find that most people have a reason for holding the opinions they hold. That's not you being treated poorly, it's simply that if you show up for some of the discussions on more complex issues, be prepared to show receipts. Speaking for myself, I read and considered your points of view, and found them wanting in a few ways that I outlined. I stand by it. I'm also willing to be demonstrated to be wrong. I have to work off the same set of facts as everybody else.

Taking stabs at former members, reservists etc doesn't do anything to strengthen the position(s) you're trying to argue. If you find this place isn't to your liking, that's completely OK. Nobody here is immune to having their arguments critiqued though.


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I respect everyone's opinion but I disagree with some. Doctor's are not god's and they don't know everything but when people are asking them questions and looking to them for guidance and leadership, they should have some personal experience to base their answer or opinion on rather than just what they might have been briefed on.



I think that they should at a minimum have a good grasp of their mandate and responsibilities.  To be effective they need to be able to guide their department and lead change as dictated by their political mandate.  They also need to act as effective advocates for theirs department’s mission and focus at cabinet.  DMs and ADMs are the ones that should have that expertise and background.  ministers need to direct and listen to those experts.  

They don’t need to be experts themselves in those fields.  Just be experts at using the talent you working for you Andy getting on board.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This is becoming a waste of time...



The military would be such a better place if it wasn't for all those reservists and combat arms.  :nod:


----------



## Quirky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This is becoming a waste of time... I once mentioned this site at work about a year ago and was told by my Capt, that he doesn't use it anymore because it's either  people that are not even military, ex military with an old way of doing things Reservists who are more gung ho than Reg F but only want to do it part time, or people that will argue about anything instead of trying to look at it from the posters point of view. I think it's a combination of all of it.  I think I get it now.  Most people I know don't even no about this site.



Reddit’s Canadianforces sub has a huge, 34k+, contingent of current/retired members who represent the modern military. This forum is mainly the same group of 20-40 commenting, reminds me of that legion that no one joins anymore and will eventually close once its members pass on. You’ll get completely different view points between the two places on topics and it’s fascinating seeing how demographics play into it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:
			
		

> Reddit’s Canadianforces sub has a huge, 34k+, contingent of current/retired members who represent the modern military. This forum is mainly the same group of 20-40 commenting, reminds me of that legion that no one joins anymore and will eventually close once its members pass on. You’ll get completely different view points between the two places on topics and it’s fascinating seeing how demographics play into it.



Which reminds me, when do I get the dandruff issued for my Army.ca blazer?


----------



## MJP

Quirky said:
			
		

> Reddit’s Canadianforces sub has a huge, 34k+, contingent of current/retired members who represent the modern military. This forum is mainly the same group of 20-40 commenting, reminds me of that legion that no one joins anymore and will eventually close once its members pass on. You’ll get completely different view points between the two places on topics and it’s fascinating seeing how demographics play into it.



They are both great places.  I generally come here for informed opinion and discussion, r/Candianforces has a distinct lack of depth. I read Reddit for the lawls, see a lower level perspective (not in a bad way) and remind myself that when I was in that demographic, I knew everything as well.


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Head of OLG needs to be a compulsive gambler?



Get real, I think I can do without your BS reply.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> . . .  Doctor's are not god's and they don't know everything . . .



Try telling a surgeon that!   :


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Reddit’s Canadianforces sub has a huge, 34k+, contingent of current/retired members who represent the modern military. This forum is mainly the same group of 20-40 commenting, *reminds me of that legion that no one joins anymore and will eventually close once its members pass on.* You’ll get completely different view points between the two places on topics and it’s fascinating seeing how demographics play into it.


If it's so stuffy here what's made you stick around for 7 years?


----------



## stellarpanther

Brihard said:
			
		

> On several threads you've come on very strong on subjects where you seem to be lacking depth of knowledge, and that has probably rubbed a few of us the wrong way. On this site there are quite a number of people with both broad and deep knowledge, and generally speaking you're going to find that most people have a reason for holding the opinions they hold. That's not you being treated poorly, it's simply that if you show up for some of the discussions on more complex issues, be prepared to show receipts. Speaking for myself, I read and considered your points of view, and found them wanting in a few ways that I outlined. I stand by it. I'm also willing to be demonstrated to be wrong. I have to work off the same set of facts as everybody else.
> 
> Taking stabs at former members, reservists etc doesn't do anything to strengthen the position(s) you're trying to argue. If you find this place isn't to your liking, that's completely OK. Nobody here is immune to having their arguments critiqued though.



That's because I belong to several internet forums but this is the only one were instead of seeing if there is anything valid in the statement someone makes, people if they disagree simply trash the poster.  It does remind me though of how combat arms units are.  I never thought I would say this but I like working in an area of political correctness were we all respect each others views without criticizing someone over their opinion or making that person seems as if their thought was stupid.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's because I belong to several internet forums but this is the only one were instead of seeing if there is anything valid in the statement someone makes, people if they disagree simply trash the poster.  It does remind me though of how combat arms units are.  I never thought I would say this but I like working in an area of political correctness were we all respect each others views without criticizing someone over their opinion or making that person seems as if their thought was stupid.



Why do you assume we didn't look to see if there was anything valid in a statement you made? In the case of your position about cabinet ministers, I did look at and think about what you wrote. I wasn't able to find that it held up to scrutiny, and I told you why.

I have not seen you get 'trashed'. The most you can claim is that you have been accused of not having much depth of perspective on one or two things you're giving opinions on, and that's in the context of flaws being pointed out in your reasoning. And then you come back to take cheap shots are former CAF members, reservists, and combat arms while playing a bit of a victim card. Pardon me for finding that a tad hypocritical- I don't think you have a leg to stand on accusing others of 'trashing' you.

If you watch various conversations on this board you'll see disagreements between members on all kinds of subjects, and generally it's handled pretty respectfully, and with ample articulation of positions. If you want that, this is a good community. If you want to post and not be challenged if people find flaws in your thinking, this isn't going to be a place where you'll find that. If you feel piled on by several members who are each making points critical of you position you took - if you're the common denominator - maybe suck back for a few and see if your own position might have some soft spots that you want to reconsider?


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=stellarpanther]It does remind me though of how combat arms units are.[/quote]  

Awesome?


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's because I belong to several internet forums but this is the only one were instead of seeing if there is anything valid in the statement someone makes, people if they disagree simply trash the poster.  It does remind me though of how combat arms units are.  I never thought I would say this but I like working in an area of political correctness were we all respect each others views without criticizing someone over their opinion or making that person seems as if their thought was stupid.



This can be a tough place at times.  But there are plenty of people in this very thread I disagree with and they with me.  The ones that don’t agree with me and say so normally attack the argument.  Sometimes written arguments can be interpreted differently depending on the wording and how some people myself included perceive it.  I’ve even had some decent offline conversations.  

The best advice I can give you is find the info to support or debunk an argument.  Check the source.  Some people might not still not give it any credence but at least an effort is made.  I’ve fact checked a few things I didn’t believe or agree with.  Sometimes it works in my favour sometimes it doesn’t. If I get called on something wrong I’ll own it.  But I’ll go down fighting before saying uncle  ;D

If you give an opinion, it helps to back it up.  informed opinion is still an opinion but it at least shows some depth to the argument.


----------



## mariomike

Apparently, so many patients on ventilators are causing hospitals to run out of oxygen.

Reported that their "bulk oxygen distribution systems were malfunctioning due to high demand." 

Dozens of patients needed to be transferred. 

https://gothamist.com/news/coronavirus-updates-after-pressure-nyc-releases-racial-breakdown-covid-19-deaths

Apparently, USNS Comfort is now accepting patients with COVID-19. That has cut the 1,000 bed capacity of the Comfort by half.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Apparently, so many patients on ventilators are causing hospitals to run out of oxygen.
> 
> Reported that their "bulk oxygen distribution systems were malfunctioning due to high demand."
> 
> Dozens of patients needed to be transferred.
> 
> https://gothamist.com/news/coronavirus-updates-after-pressure-nyc-releases-racial-breakdown-covid-19-deaths



Yeah, there seem to be a lot of unexpected stress points showing up. I never would have thought of pressure warnings tripping faults on centralized oxygen distribution systems, but it makes sense. That would seem to limit to ability to jury rig multiple patients onto single vents of O2 volume would thereby increase considerably... Damn.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's because I belong to several internet forums but this is the only one were instead of seeing if there is anything valid in the statement someone makes, people if they disagree simply trash the poster.  It does remind me though of how combat arms units are.  I never thought I would say this but I like working in an area of political correctness were we all respect each others views without criticizing someone over their opinion or making that person seems as if their thought was stupid.



If one is exercising “political correctness” correctly, then interactions shouldn’t be absent of criticism and/or differing opinions, nor expressing them. It is entirely possible to be politically correct while simultaneously communicating disagreement, even irritation or annoyance with another’s pov. If that has never occurred in your workplace, then you’re not necessarily in a politically correct environment—You’re in an environment where it’s unacceptable to speak freely. There’s a very clear distinction between being politically correct and throwing out abuses towards one’s character, affiliation, sex/gender, opinions, etc. We have differences of opinion in my workplace, and we know how to communicate our frustrations openly without making it personal. Occasionally, there may be an off-colour remark; but we’re also able to address it in most instances. 

In any event, it’s very disheartening to read your comments. Others have disagreed with you, yes; but you’ve been the one using such terms as stupid, BS and pushing an agenda that this site is nothing but one big group of washed up, bitter CAF members who all ban together against the little guy. You’ve already been told that the majority of active members here currently serve, and at all levels. You’ve been corrected on more than one occasion about your tone and that it’s off-putting. No one has deducted points, or reported any posts of yours that can be interpreted as nothing but insulting to others. 

There are users who are hard lefts, rights, centres, undecideds, and whatever in between. RegF & PRes alike. That doesn’t seem to reflect any distinction wrt who disagrees with your comments, and has tried to guide your interactions. 

Frankly, if your assertions are correct about the quality and collective personalities of users on this forum, then I’ll tell you, I never would’ve gained any ounce of respect from anyone here. And trust me, I started off on a wrong foot (or two). But I heeded the criticisms directed towards me, reflected on my own behaviour, and have listened over the years to those who have put the time in to showing me where I’ve been wrong. I still disagree with users on certain subjects, and they with me. We still butt heads occasionally. But there’s a way to get one’s point across without single-handedly ticking off the user-base. Repeatedly.

As I’ve explained, this site used to be quite harsh. I will not argue against the tone it used to encompass in the least. But that’s in the past. And if you’re not able and/or willing to discern how constructive interactions here can now be, and the work that Mike and DS have put in in order to maintain professionalism and quality discussion on a slew of topics, then you’re solely choosing to formulate your opinions on very limited perspective—and you’ll be the one losing out, in my honest opinion.

You aren’t alone here in belonging to several different forums, and it’s interesting how you speak so highly of other sites. Several, several users here frequent other boards. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it can be equally argued that there are many, of all ranks, who come here for informed, quality discussion and who have been frequenting these boards for years. Some have even expressed leaving, but ultimately returned because of the depth of discussion available. Army.ca isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, and there’s always room for growth and improvement. (Reddit is a total dumpster fire in a ton of areas, and has far more instances of users being “trashed” percentage-wise than here, imo.) But anyway, most of these points have already been explained more than once.

In my time here, I’ve observed that the people who don’t like it and leave are the ones who can’t adapt to the tone, and/or direction staff gives on how to interact—they haven’t been able to evolve with the site. You’re free to go. You’re free to stay. But clearly no one here can explain how you’ve contributed to your own discourse wrt your experience here. It’s all on you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

If everyone on army.ca agreed with everything I posted I'd quickly stop coming to army.ca.  If all I wanted was agreement I could debate with my dog.


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If everyone on army.ca agreed with everything I posted I'd quickly stop coming to army.ca.  If all I wanted was agreement I could debate with my dog.



There are some very good and knowledgeable posters here but I will say that part of what set me off was getting a warning by you I believe for referring to Trudeau as a wimp for the way I perceived his handing of some issues, but it's ok for others to suggest he sell fragrance or referring to him as Aladdin and nothing said.  The stuff that is said on here about our politicians is totally disrespectful at times but nothing is said but it is to me.  I don't get it.  It's the second warning but the first one about 2 weeks ago was just ridiculous.  The other was for posting a legit article that was on various sites but I'm supposed to know this forum has a grip with a particular journalists and nobody can post anything he says and the warning comes with the comment to not email any staff about it.  Does that even make sense?


----------



## Kat Stevens

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> There are some very good and knowledgeable posters here but I will say that part of what set me off was getting a warning by you I believe for referring to Trudeau as a wimp for the way I perceived his handing of some issues, but it's ok for others to suggest he sell fragrance or referring to him as Aladdin and nothing said.  The stuff that is said on here about our politicians is totally disrespectful at times but nothing is said but it is to me.  I don't get it.  It's the second warning but the first one about 2 weeks ago was just ridiculous.  The other was for posting a legit article that was on various sites but I'm supposed to know this forum has a grip with a particular journalists and nobody can post anything he says and the warning comes with the comment to not email any staff about it.  Does that even make sense?



Some day you and I will sit down and compare warning records.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=stellarpanther]that part of what set me off was getting a warning by you I believe for referring to Trudeau as a wimp for the way I perceived his handing of some issues, but it's ok for others to suggest he sell fragrance or referring to him as Aladdin and nothing said.  The stuff that is said on here about our politicians is totally disrespectful at times but nothing is said but it is to me.[/quote]
You're wrong. 
I've been a member here for 18 years and I was just given a warning a week or two ago for calling a politician "shitty". Moderators here have been getting warnings for breaking the code of conduct too. You're not being singled out.


----------



## brihard

Mm hm. I ate one a week and a half ago too. The mods are a hell of a lot more fair and objective than used to be the case.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> There are some very good and knowledgeable posters here but I will say that part of what set me off was getting a warning by you I believe for referring to Trudeau as a wimp for the way I perceived his handing of some issues, but it's ok for others to suggest he sell fragrance or referring to him as Aladdin and nothing said.  The stuff that is said on here about our politicians is totally disrespectful at times but nothing is said but it is to me.  I don't get it.  It's the second warning but the first one about 2 weeks ago was just ridiculous.  The other was for posting a legit article that was on various sites but I'm supposed to know this forum has a grip with a particular journalists and nobody can post anything he says and the warning comes with the comment to not email any staff about it.  Does that even make sense?


Why you were given the warning you were is clearly explained in these two posts:  Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ and How to engage in political discourse on Army.ca

If you see something that you believe is against these rules, you are more than welcome to flag it for the attention of the DS to look at via the "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom right of each post. DS do miss things at times so, as long as the R2M isn't being abused for spiteful or vindictive reasons, we are more than happy to take a look at your concern and act in accordance with the rules Mike has put in place.

For what it is worth, there is a world of difference between referring to the PM as a "wimp" and someone making reference to his dressing up as Aladdin, for which pictures exist in the public domain.


----------



## mariomike

They cancelled Caribana.

https://twitter.com/GoTOCarnival/status/1248058093465993218


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:
			
		

> Never thought I would live to see the day. They cancelled Caribana.



Shootings are reduced significantly.


----------



## Weinie

FFS stellarpanther, 

3 weeks and 40 pages ago in this thread, I offered this advice:




			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> stellarpanther,
> 
> Over the last several days, you have:
> 
> Kvetched about Class A pay for your son
> Shown little knowledge of how the CAF is constituted
> 
> Wrongly imputed CDS direction
> 
> Jumped into fantasy land
> 
> Jumped even further into fantasy land
> 
> Misunderstood the rationale for the concepts of "protect the Force" and "critical services"
> 
> Lashed out at those whose "opinions" don't match your "opinion
> 
> Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. The complex nature of the implications of covid19, coupled with the rumour mill, speculation, misinformation, and disinformation, enabled through the ubiquity of the information environment means that "truthiness' has to be stomped on and stamped out, and quickly. Do not be offended if folks here challenge what you say, my earlier years (and sometimes recent postings) on this forum were characterized by swift and sometimes cutting rebuttals of what I offered as opinion. There are some very wise and knowledgeable folks on here, and they mostly strive to inform.



Over the last day or so, many members have offered you far more cogent and rational advice. Why are you pushing back? You have an 18 yr old son, so I assume you are a mature man. Yet your responses to said advice are petulant, and resemble the intensely frustrating, immature rationale that I typically get from my 13 year old son. 

You don't have to take any of our advice...it's your call. But as has been stated here oft times, don't expect a free ride.

"Better to say nothing, and be thought a fool, then open one's mouth and prove it"  Anonymous but apropos


----------



## OceanBonfire

FJAG said:
			
		

> In the  "You just can't make this **** up" department.
> 
> See rest here: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-52164358
> 
> :Tin-Foil-Hat:



Pushed by the MAGA bots:



> “The 5G COVID-19 theory looks like Russia has started it, and now it is being pushed by the MAGA bots,” said Stephanie Carvin, a Carleton University professor and former national security analyst for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6793733/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-russia-china/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Target Up said:
			
		

> Shootings are reduced significantly.



It's almost like shootings have nothing to do with types of guns owned. Or the fact guns and ammo flew off the shelves by lawful gun owners.


----------



## mariomike

Target Up said:
			
		

> Shootings are reduced significantly.



And overtime.

Also stabbings, bludgeoning, vehicular, tossed off a roof, and general a _ _ stomping.

Hopefully there will be no violence this year.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I happened to find myself in The Great Stink during that time of year doing an installation job about ten years back. It sounded an awful lot like Op Harmony '92, ROTO 0, at night down there.


----------



## mariomike

Target Up said:
			
		

> I happened to find myself in The Great Stink



It may come as a surprise, to some, how high the house prices are. Especially in certain neighbourhoods.  

I worked in the asphalt jungle. I didn't live in it.

I only went to Caribana "North America's largest street festival" when sent. 

But, here is Mayor Rob RIP having a good time.


----------



## mariomike

Received this from my pensioner association. Not something I am interested in. But, in case anyone else is,



> WELCOME TO THE WORKFORCE MATCHING PORTAL
> Ontario is seeking those with experience in providing health care who are available to help provincial efforts to prevent and control the spread of COVID-19, if required.  We are looking for health care providers who may be working part-time and want to and are prepared to increase their work hours or former healthcare providers who are retired, or on inactive status with their regulatory college. If you are interested and you can help, please provide us with the following information to create a user profile. Your profile may be used to match you to positions and opportunities to use your skills and provide services where they are most needed.
> http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/publichealth/coronavirus/2019_guidance.aspx



I'm not a member of Costco, but for those who are,



> Priority Access for Healthcare Workers and First Responders
> 
> Costco is temporarily allowing priority access to our warehouses during all open hours for Costco members who are healthcare workers and first responders such as police officers, EMTs and firefighters. Healthcare workers and first responders who present a Costco membership card and official identification of their role, will be allowed to move to the front of any line to enter the warehouse.
> https://www.costco.com/covid-updates.html



From Bruce Monkhouse,

EDIT;  Canadian link.  [GF works at Costco, sometime the Countries differ on things, same for this though]  https://www.costco.ca/coronavirus-response.html

Thanks, Bruce!

Cardiac Arrest Deaths at Home in New York City Have Increased By a Startling 800%
http://www.ptca.org/news/2020/0408_INCREASED_DEATHS_NYC.html

When seconds count .... average city response time to cardiac arrest: 10 minutes and 27 seconds

Apparently, Bill O'Reilly and Sean were chatting on Fox about Covid-19. Bill said, " “Many people who are dying, both here and around the world, were on their last legs anyway.” 
https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/bill-oreilly-many-people-who-are-dying-both-here-and-around-world-were-their

Considering the average age of Fox viewers, 
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01MMYpHKb-Cy8bMWwMBk8Lzmlf7Zw%3A1586435615557&ei=HxaPXsLNIaiO9PwPwdiD6A4&q=%22fox+news%22+%22average+age%22&oq=%22fox+news%22+%22average+age%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAIEB4yBQgAEM0CMgUIABDNAjIFCAAQzQI6BAgAEEc6BAgAEB46BggAEAUQHjoICAAQCBAHEB46BAgAEA1KDggXEgoxMS0xMDdnMTI5SgoIGBIGMTEtNWc1UOs-WPtdYJxqaABwA3gAgAGeAYgBqQaSAQMwLjeYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiC2cuardvoAhUoB50JHUHsAO0Q4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1586435632742

I wonder how that went over with the audience.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Speaking of Reddit, if you're bored there's some entertaining raging going on from people on welfare who don't qualify for the CERB. 

Apparently there's a group trying to convince renters to just stop paying rent and give a finger to landlords. Nice people.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Speaking of Reddit, if you're bored there's some entertaining raging going on from people on welfare who don't qualify for the CERB.
> 
> Apparently there's a group trying to convince renters to just stop paying rent and give a finger to landlords. Nice people.



I ended up leaving my city's big COVID mutual-aid facebook group over this kind of idiocy. Lots of people are trying to co-opt this crisis to push their own agendas, advocating 'rent strikes' and so on and so forth. Which subreddit are you seeing the raging on? I'm just curious to read the angst. I'm bored.


----------



## Jarnhamar

It was Personal Finance Canada or Personal Finances Canada. 

I've been bouncing around a few different ones, including a hometown one which I had to quit. Some people on welfare and EI somehow mistakenly got the $2000 emergency payment. Some people are trying to give it back, some people are laughing and keeping it. The ones that didn't get it are freaking out because someone else on welfare/ei got more money than them.

The rent strikers are just as crazy. They're genuinely arguing they should just not pay rent until this crisis is over and fuck the land lords they can just eat the losses. Of course the emergency money the government is giving them shouldn't go towards, even in part, to rent. Don't tell them what to do with their money lol


----------



## daftandbarmy

We Can’t Rely on Just the Military

It might seem like the Pentagon can act as some sort of savior in confronting the coronavirus, but that’s unlikely.

In September 2014, as the deadly Ebola virus overwhelmed West Africa, the Obama administration felt compelled to intervene. The Pentagon spent $360 million to send 3,000 troops to the region and tasked them with building 17 100-bed treatment centers. 

Ultimately, only 11 centers were constructed, and only 28 Ebola patients were treated at them. Nine of those centers never even saw patients. By contrast, the international medical NGO Doctors Without Borders treated more than 5,000 Ebola patients, or a third of total confirmed cases, at a cost of roughly $100 million, or less than a third of what the Pentagon spent.

The difference was that the Obama administration’s efforts didn’t kick in until after the outbreak had already peaked. The first center opened in mid-November, by which point new cases were steadily declining. Doctors Without Borders, meanwhile, first responded to the crisis in March 2014.

The armed forces have certainly had their share of public-health successes, from Walter Reed’s discoveries about yellow fever to the military’s work on an Ebola vaccine. But the sluggish and costly response to the Ebola outbreak, according to Charles Kenny of the Center for Global Development, is a reality check as the Pentagon struggles to respond to the coronavirus outbreak. As an institution designed to defeat “opponents on the battlefield,” he told me, the Defense Department is “a woefully insufficient, inefficient, and expensive tool” to combat a pandemic. What are needed most right now are scientists and medical workers collaborating across countries.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/us-military-failing-spending-budget/609673/


----------



## PuckChaser

The Atlantic is showing its bias. You can absolutely count on the military to be there when you need it. What you can't count on is the politicians to make timely and decisive decisions to employ the military before its well past the "peak".


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The Atlantic is showing its bias. You can absolutely count on the military to be there when you need it. What you can't count on is the politicians to make timely and decisive decisions to employ the military before its well past the "peak".



They explicitly lay blame on the politicians for the delayed response "The difference was that the Obama administration’s efforts didn’t kick in until after the outbreak had already peaked."

Hardly see that as an anti-military bias...


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> They explicitly lay blame on the politicians for the delayed response "The difference was that the Obama administration’s efforts didn’t kick in until after the outbreak had already peaked."
> 
> Hardly see that as an anti-military bias...



How many people read past the headline in this day and age? Yeah, 2nd paragraph its the Administration fault, but when you share the article on social media the headline seems to tell a completely different story. "Military relief efforts hamstrung by political indecision" probably a much better title, that actually shows what the article is about.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It was Personal Finance Canada or Personal Finances Canada.
> 
> I've been bouncing around a few different ones, including a hometown one which I had to quit. Some people on welfare and EI somehow mistakenly got the $2000 emergency payment. Some people are trying to give it back, some people are laughing and keeping it. The ones that didn't get it are freaking out because someone else on welfare/ei got more money than them.
> 
> The rent strikers are just as crazy. They're genuinely arguing they should just not pay rent until this crisis is over and frig the land lords they can just eat the losses. Of course the emergency money the government is giving them shouldn't go towards, even in part, to rent. Don't tell them what to do with their money lol



Out of curiosity, what excuse if any are these people giving for not wanting to paying rent?  If a person still has their job making as much as they were prior to this all starting I don't understand their reason for thinking they shouldn't need to pay.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Hard times in the skies [nice charts]:



> Global airliner fleet returns to 1990s levels
> 
> As airlines worldwide ground their aircraft in the wake of a collapse in passenger demand, the industry has passed a key cross-over point with the number of stored jets now exceeding that of the active fleet.
> 
> As of early April, Cirium fleets data revealed that, on a global scale, the size of the active mainline jet fleet (Airbus and Boeing types) has diminished to that of the mid-1990s. Viewed o a regional basis, the situation is even more extreme.
> 
> Cirium tracks the global fleet, applying strict criteria of at least seven consecutive days of verified inactivity before recognising an aircraft as being grounded. This means that the data can lag the reality on the ground, where images of lines of stored aircraft already illustrate the scale of the issue.
> 
> But analysis of data in early April shows that just under 9,500 of the 22,000 Airbus and Boeing jets operated by passenger airlines were still flying – or around 43%. This confirmed tally is expected to continue to decline in the coming weeks as Cirium data analysts recognise more aircraft as meeting its stored definition. Cirium data reveals that current size of the global in-service fleet is roughly the same as that in 1997.
> 
> Currently, three regions have more than two-thirds of their operating fleet grounded: Africa (86%), the Middle East (78%), and Europe (75%).
> 
> The airlines of Asia-Pacific and North America still have slightly more mainline passenger jets flying than stored. In each region, the number of active jets account for 56% of their total fleets. Europe holds the unenviable position of having the highest number of inactive aircraft – at just over 4,200 jets.
> 
> Comparison by region of the dramatic shrinkage of the global operating fleet highlights the shift in power between different parts of the world since the total fleet was last below 10,000 aircraft [read on]...
> https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/global-airliner-fleet-returns-to-1990s-levels/137798.article



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what excuse if any are these people giving for not wanting to paying rent?  If a person still has their job making as much as they were prior to this all starting I don't understand their reason for thinking they shouldn't need to pay.



I would guess a sense of entitlement. People who think they're owed something just because. 
Also give someone a reason not to pay for something and they'll bite. 

The organizers of the rent strike (which reads like a typical templated anti government, anti rich, anti whatever manifesto) know that the more people they get on board and not paying rent the more coverage they get. They don't differentiate between people who lost their jobs, people who lost their jobs but are getting money from the government and people who haven't lost their jobs. 

*spelling


----------



## PuckChaser

One thing I do hope is that these folks trying to abuse the CREB get audited by CRA when they file their taxes next year. This isn't free money, its taxable. It'll also be pretty easy to determine who's abusing it when someone who's been on Welfare for years applies for CREB and says they lost employment from COVID-19. Same thing with the rent strike folks, what they don't realize is that they still owe the rent for every month they're in the rental, some landlords are just deferring the payments. Mortgage payment deferrals are working the same way, except the big banks are trying to cash in on this because they're charging the interest on the payments missed, just like if you choose the "skip a payment" option for your mortgage. They ended up making more money off of you for "helping" you in a national emergency.


----------



## PMedMoe

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> One thing I do hope is that these folks trying to abuse the CREB get audited by CRA when they file their taxes next year. This isn't free money, its taxable.



https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/we-will-know-who-got-too-much-dont-try-to-double-dip-with-cerb-federal-government-warns


----------



## blacktriangle

I bet a bunch of the rent-strikers are Antifa wannabes...or straight up whiskey tangos 

What disgusts me more is someone I used to work with who makes a 6 figure income (north of 120k a year) deferring mortgage and vehicle payments when he makes more than most Canadian families.


----------



## brihard

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I bet a bunch of the rent-strikers are Antifa wannabes...or straight up whiskey tangos
> 
> What disgusts me more is someone I used to work with who makes a 6 figure income (north of 120k a year) deferring mortgage and vehicle payments when he makes more than most Canadian families.



Meh, joke’s on him. Interest still accrues. It’s not like he’s welching on someone who needs rent from their one investment property to pay the mortgage on same. If banks want to defer payments, that’s fine.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>What disgusts me more is someone I used to work with who makes a 6 figure income (north of 120k a year) deferring mortgage and vehicle payments when he makes more than most Canadian families. 

Is he out of work, or not?  Not everyone with a high income manages their finances prudently.  Paycheque-to-paycheque isn't limited to certain income classes.  (I still have no sympathy for a high-earner who is imprudent, but the need might still truly exist.)


----------



## blacktriangle

Has a steady income, every toy you can imagine, lives pay cheque to pay cheque. 

I didn't even think such a person would be allowed to defer payments, but they very proudly told me what they'd be buying with all the "money I'm gonna save".


----------



## tomahawk6

The 250b Senate bill for small business isn't going anywhere until a deal is hammered out with the House.


----------



## stellarpanther

I was reading posts on reddit earlier and some of these same people that don't want to pay rent also think they shouldn't need to pay for groceries.  One guy posted that because food is essential to live and due to the fact that stores have raised their prices ( I haven't noticed it much), people should just go in, fill their bags and walk out to teach them a lesson about raising prices.  I've read several articles in the past couple weeks talking about some prices rising and a lot of this is because suppliers are raising the price the store pays.


----------



## cavalryman

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I bet a bunch of the rent-strikers are Antifa wannabes...or straight up whiskey tangos



Here in Ottawa, it's the usual suspects from ACORN pushing it.  Had their leader on the local CBC radio earlier this week.  It went about as you'd expect.  :


----------



## blacktriangle

cavalryman said:
			
		

> Here in Ottawa, it's the usual suspects from ACORN pushing it.  Had their leader on the local CBC radio earlier this week.  It went about as you'd expect.  :



I haven't heard of them before, but just googled them. Not surprised to see what wonderful area their office is located in.


----------



## tomahawk6

A taste of what biowar would look like.


----------



## dangerboy

A good update from LGen Eyre and CWO Hartnell:  https://twitter.com/CanadianArmy/status/1248363812799078400/video/1


----------



## dapaterson

The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, the Conservative Party, and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation all in agreement???  Wheretare the other horsemen of the apocalypse?

"[ C ]ompanies should be banned from paying executive bonuses while they're getting the wage subsidy. Agreed. If you can't afford workers' wages, you can't afford exec bonuses."

https://twitter.com/awudrick/status/1248380093656780814


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, the Conservative Party, and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation all in agreement???  Wheretare the other horsemen of the apocalypse?
> 
> "[ C ]ompanies should be banned from paying executive bonuses while they're getting the wage subsidy. Agreed. If you can't afford workers' wages, you can't afford exec bonuses."
> 
> https://twitter.com/awudrick/status/1248380093656780814



Good luck with that. Better get back on your Unicorn and head back to Dreamland...


----------



## garb811

Executives will be given bonuses for the creative methods they employed to keep cash flow coming in during these difficult times, just like Bombardier used to do when it was gobbling up all that taxpayer money.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If it's so stuffy here what's made you stick around for 7 years?



Doesn’t have that basement officer mess boozy stench just yet. 



*
Obesity is major COVID-19 risk factor, says French chief epidemiologist*

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-confinement/obesity-is-major-covid-19-risk-factor-says-french-chief-epidemiologist-idUSKBN21Q0S7

Time to enact basic fitness standards for the general populace to reduce strain on healthcare? Even as simple as a proper diet can have a huge affect. Don’t meet the minimum standard, pay for your own hospital visits.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:
			
		

> Doesn%u2019t have that _*basement officer mess boozy stench*_ just yet.



I spent a lot of time and money creating that stench, notwithstanding untold hours (days) suffering later. Some respect please.


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, the Conservative Party, and the Canadian Taxpayers Federation all in agreement???  Wheretare the other horsemen of the apocalypse?
> 
> "[ C ]ompanies should be banned from paying executive bonuses while they're getting the wage subsidy. Agreed. If you can't afford workers' wages, you can't afford exec bonuses."
> 
> https://twitter.com/awudrick/status/1248380093656780814




Totally agreed!  Most CEO's of big companies aren't exactly hurting financially just based on their ludicrous salaries...to give themselves bonuses while keeping their companies afloat with taxpayer dollars should be (and I hope they make it so) - criminal.

That being said, we only need to look at American auto companies a few years back, or Bombardier - among others - to know that the incompetent morons on top have very good accountants, and seem to get away with almost anything.


----------



## Weinie

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Totally agreed!  Most CEO's of big companies aren't exactly hurting financially just based on their ludicrous salaries...to give themselves bonuses while keeping their companies afloat with taxpayer dollars should be (and I hope they make it so) - criminal.
> 
> That being said, we only need to look at American auto companies a few years back, or Bombardier - among others - to know that the incompetent morons on top have very good accountants _*connections*_, and seem to get away with almost anything.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Even more insanity...
> 
> Prosecutors: Engineer deliberately ran train off tracks in attempt to smash the USNS Mercy
> 
> SAN PEDRO, LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- An engineer deliberately ran a train off the tracks at high speed near the Port of Los Angeles in an attempt to crash into and damage the USNS Mercy hospital ship, prosecutors say ...


More on this guy from U.S. DOJ ...


> ... In his first interview with the Los Angeles Port Police, Moreno acknowledged that he “did it,” saying that he was suspicious of the Mercy and believing it had an alternate purpose related to COVID-19 or a government takeover, the affidavit states. Moreno stated that he acted alone and had not pre-planned the attempted attack. While admitting to intentionally derailing and crashing the train, he said he knew it would bring media attention and “people could see for themselves,” referring to the Mercy, according to the affidavit.
> 
> In a second interview with FBI agents, Moreno stated that “he did it out of the desire to ‘wake people up,’” according to the affidavit. “Moreno stated that he thought that the U.S.N.S. Mercy was suspicious and did not believe ‘the ship is what they say it’s for.’” ...





			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> Executives will be given bonuses for the creative methods they employed to keep cash flow coming in during these difficult times, just like Bombardier used to do when it was gobbling up all that taxpayer money.


I wish you were wrong, but I'd bet that way, too


----------



## The Bread Guy

And we see an organization that started out "helping" when the government couldn't doing the same ....


> As Italy struggles to pull its economy through the coronavirus crisis, the Mafia is gaining local support by distributing free food to poor families in quarantine who have run out of cash, authorities have warned.
> 
> In recent weeks, videos have surfaced of known Mafia gangs delivering essential goods to Italians hit hard by the coronavirus emergency across the poorest southern regions of Campania, Calabria, Sicily and Puglia, as tensions rise across the country.
> 
> “For over a month, shops, cafés, restaurants and pubs have been closed,” Nicola Gratteri, antimafia investigator and head of the prosecutor’s office in Catanzaro, told the Guardian. “Millions of people work in the grey economy, which means that they haven’t received any income in more than a month and have no idea when they might return to work. The government is issuing so-called shopping vouchers to support people. If the state doesn’t step in soon to help these families, the mafia will provide its services, imposing their control over people’s lives.”
> Advertisement
> 
> The ramifications of the lockdown in Italy are affecting the estimated 3.3 million people in Italy who work off the books. Of those, more than 1 million live in the south, according to the most recent figures from CGIA Mestre, a Venice-based small business association. There have been reports of small shop owners being pressured to give food for free, while police are patrolling supermarkets in some areas to stop thefts. Videos of people in Sicily protesting against the government’s stalled response, or people beating their fists outside banks in Bari for a €50 (£44) loan are going viral and throwing fuel on the crisis; a fire the mafia is more than willing to stoke ...


#MafiaGottaMafia


----------



## mariomike

Data from FDNY shows that 1,125 people died in their homes or on the street in the first five days of April. The steep rise coincides with the surge in coronavirus cases and deaths in New York City.



> Hundreds of bodies are being recovered from New York City homes every day but are NOT included in coronavirus death count even if they had symptoms - as the city increases burials in mass graves on Hart Island
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8208325/Bodies-recovered-NYC-homes-not-counted-COVID-death-toll.html


----------



## Brad Sallows

>#MafiaGottaMafia

Unsurprising.  "Government failure" is the complement to "market failure".  Except that markets are blamed for market failure, and people taking matters into their own hands are blamed for doing so when government fails.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *'Salad with no dressing': Privileged Kuwaitis complain about five-star quarantine*
> 
> The first batch arrived two weeks ago, and for some accustomed to the best in life, their accommodation has proven less than satisfactory.
> 
> "Dear minister of finance, the food has no taste, it is inedible and we're throwing it away," one woman, who did not reveal her face, said in a video uploaded online.
> 
> "We are emotionally tired, and our health is deteriorating because the food is not nutritious," she added as she examined catering trays delivered to her hotel room.
> 
> "They served us salad with no dressing, and everything else is also dry."
> 
> Her comments prompted a backlash online with some saying she should be grateful.
> 
> "I stayed in a hospital for a week with my mother and did not complain, eating bread and cheese," one Twitter user fired back.
> 
> Another uploaded footage of people in a developing country standing in line to drink water.
> 
> "If only they saw how we opened our fridge to choose the (brand of) water we want. God, don't deny us your generosity," read the sarcastic caption.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/salad-with-no-dressing-privileged-kuwaitis-complain-about-five-star-quarantine-1.4891543


----------



## Quirky

Just bringing some retrospect to calm the social hysteria going on in Canada over this.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6503722/coronavirus-death-risk/



> *5 things more likely to kill you in Canada than coronavirus*
> 
> Cancer
> Nearly 80,000 people died from cancer in 2018, according to Statistics Canada. One of the main causes? Smoking. The sooner you quit, the sooner the risk you’ll die early drops, research shows.
> 
> “Smoking’s still our number one (risk factor),” says Dr. Doug Manuel, a senior scientist at the Ottawa Hospital Research Institute and professor in family medicine at the University of Ottawa.
> 
> Cardiovascular disease
> In 2018, more than 53,000 Canadians died from heart disease, according to Statistics Canada. It is the second leading cause of death, and 12 Canadian adults who have been diagnosed with heart disease die every hour, according to surveillance data the Public Health Agency of Canada gathered in 2012 and 2013.
> 
> Accidents, including a car crash
> Nearly 13,300 people died from unintentional injuries in 2018, according to Statistics Canada. And while the number of car accident fatalities has dropped from nearly 3,000 20 years ago, people in Canada are still more likely to die in a car crash than from coronavirus. More than 1,800 people died in a collision in 2017, per figures from Transport Canada.
> 
> The flu
> Influenza and pneumonia killed 8,511 people in 2018, per Statistics Canada figures. When you narrow the scope to just the common flu, the death toll is around 1,000 per year, says Rosenthal. Once he crunches the numbers, he says this: the odds of a random Canadian dying from the common flu this year is about one in 300,000.
> 
> Suicide
> Every year thousands of people in Canada die by suicide — a figure experts say is conservative at best. In 2018, 3,811 people died by suicide. And yet, it is preventable, experts say, if we keep fighting stigma, connecting the data, and working to ensure everyone has access to the treatment they need.
> 
> “Why do people fear terrorism and SARS so much more than automobile accidents and cardiovascular disease? Because terrorism and SARS seems new and unknown, and therefore uncertain,” Rosenthal wrote in his book.
> 
> “Humans can accept significant danger and loss of numerous lives, provided these happen in a manner to which they are accustomed.
> 
> “But when unexpected dangers emerge, they fear these more than is truly justified.”
> 
> Some things we take for granted, says Manuel: getting the flu shot, washing your hands, refrigerating meat, being careful with food preparation, putting our seat belt on when we drive, not driving in bad weather, exercising.
> 
> “We forget that those add up,” he says.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post:



> COVID-19 and China, or, Who’s Racist Now?
> 
> The _Globe and Mail’s_ excellent correspondent in Beijing, Nathan VanderKlippe (tweets here), files a story that should open some eyes that only see racism in one place:
> 
> ‘Stay away from here’: In China, foreigners have become a target for coronavirus discrimination
> ...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/04/10/covid-19-and-china-or-whos-racist-now/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Just bringing some retrospect to calm the social hysteria going on in Canada over this.



Some members of the public may fail to grasp it is not "business as usual" for paramedics. 

FDNY has registered a staggering increase in cardiac arrest calls.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *South Korea reports recovered coronavirus patients testing positive again*
> 
> South Korean officials on Friday reported 91 patients thought cleared of the new coronavirus had tested positive again.
> 
> Jeong Eun-kyeong, director of the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC), told a briefing that the virus may have been “reactivated” rather than the patients being re-infected.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southkorea-idUSKCN21S15X


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some members of the public may fail to grasp it is not "business as usual" for paramedics.
> 
> FDNY has registered a staggering increase in cardiac arrest calls.



I wonder if paras are more or less busy now in NYC since people aren’t calling for regular frivolous “emergencies”.


----------



## CBH99

I'd be curious to know if the symptoms are more or less severe the second time around.  Also, were these patients tested but not deemed serious enough to be hospitalized, or were they told to go isolate?

Not great news either way.  Curious on the details.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> I wonder if paras are more or less busy now in NYC since people aren’t calling for regular frivolous “emergencies”.



I was referring to cardiac arrests. 

FDNY has had a 400 percent increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:
			
		

> I was referring to cardiac arrests.
> 
> FDNY has had a 400 percent increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year.




MarioMike, curious for your personal take on it?  (If your willing, that is?)

You were a career paramedic, and have more time in emergency medicine than the rest of us combined.  I'd genuinely be curious to hear your take on the above??


Why, do you think, there is a 400% increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year?   Quarantined and not exercising?  Stress from the mainstream media & situation?  Afraid to call 911 and tie up resources, feeling like they are burdening already stretched staff?  etc etc?


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> MarioMike, curious for your personal take on it?  (If your willing, that is?)



I don't understand it, because I never experienced anything like it. 

But, I have read from 9/11 veterans,

Paramedic who retrieved body parts after 9/11 says coronavirus is worse 
https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/paramedic-who-worked-on-9-11-said-coronavirus-is-even-worse/



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> Why, do you think, there is a 400% increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year?



Coronavirus? Whatever the cause, seeing refrigerated morgue trucks, crematoriums going full blast 24/7, trench graves, and talk of mass graves in local parks is not something you see every day. At least not in the last 100 years.


----------



## Quirky

Of all the deaths in NYC, how many were directly caused by Covid infections, are they doing autopsys on everyone or just labeling everyone that dies a Covid statistic? Somehow I doubt that every body in the back of the freezer truck gets properly analyzed.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Of all the deaths in NYC, how many were directly caused by Covid infections, are they doing autopsys on everyone or just labeling everyone that dies a Covid statistic?



Maybe not a single one was caused by coronavirus.

Maybe the 400 per cent increase in outside-of-hospital cardiac arrests over the same time last year is simply a coincidence.  :dunno:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Or folks think that someone will show if they say 'cardiac', as opposed to "I may have the virus'?


----------



## dapaterson

Absolutely horrific, if even half of the allegations in this story are true.



> A privately run seniors’ residence in Dorval that is grappling with an outbreak of COVID-19 cases has been described as a “concentration camp” — with unfed and soiled elderly residents inside — by health professionals who came to their rescue, a Montreal Gazette investigation has found.
> ...
> When the public health officials and police arrived at the Herron, they found no one in the building who was in a position of authority, the sources said.
> ...
> “There were (two) patients who were dead in their beds,” the source added. “Their deaths had not been recognized. There were patients who had fallen on the floor. There were patients who hadn’t had any basic care for a number of days, diapers that hadn’t been changed for three or four days, excrement that was covering their skin and patients who hadn’t been fed.”
> 
> “Their whole second floor was infested with COVID,” the source continued. “It was a hot floor. And there were just two orderlies for the entire (137-bed) institution.”




https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/public-health-police-find-bodies-feces-at-dorval-seniors-residence-sources/wcm/19011f52-7b04-41c4-a674-93bc26283749/


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Absolutely horrific, if even half of the allegations in this story are true.
> 
> 
> https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/public-health-police-find-bodies-feces-at-dorval-seniors-residence-sources/wcm/19011f52-7b04-41c4-a674-93bc26283749/



OMFG.... in the good old days, there would be a gallows built nearby pretty quickly to take care of that kind of 'leadership'.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Why, do you think, there is a 400% increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year?   Quarantined and not exercising?  Stress from the mainstream media & situation?  Afraid to call 911 and tie up resources, feeling like they are burdening already stretched staff?  etc etc?



This "may" be part of the reason, though as in most epidemiological studies, most of the questions won't be answered until after the current crisis has passed.

http://www.ptca.org/news/2020/0408_INCREASED_DEATHS_NYC.html


> Cardiac Arrest Deaths at Home in New York City Have Increased By a Startling 800%
> Are Some Heart Attack Sufferers Dying at Home, Afraid to Call an Ambulance for Fear of Contracting COVID-19 in the Hospital?
> 
> April 8, 2020 -- Last week Angioplasty.Org conducted a poll of interventional cardiologists that revealed a 50% or more drop in the number of people receiving emergency treatment for heart attacks in many hospitals. Physicians have been speculating why this might be. In an article in the New York Times this week, Yale cardiologist Dr. Harlan Krumholz cited our poll and asked, "Where Have All the Heart Attacks Gone?"
> 
> Now frightening numbers from New York City's overwhelmed emergency medical system may provide part of the answer: hundreds of people a day have been dying of cardiac arrest in their homes, an eight-fold increase over the same period last year.
> 
> "We're in battlefield wartime triage," Mike Greco, Paramedic and Vice President of Local 2507, told Angioplasty.Org. He compared the situation to Baghdad. "We are stretched thin, and the call volume is so high. That's how overwhelmed these ERs are right now in NYC.”
> 
> Greco's Union represents EMTs, paramedics, and fire inspectors of the Fire Department of NYC. The Department’s most recent figures of cardiac arrests occurring at home are striking: for the week from March 30-April 5, 2020, there were 1,990 cardiac arrest calls, four times as many as the same period a year earlier; and of those, 1,429 could not be revived, an eight-fold increase over 2019. The arrests were greater in number than normal, and far more lethal.
> 
> Many of the people whose hearts stopped at home are thought to have died from cardiac arrest brought on by untreated COVID-19 infection. Since the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner is similarly overwhelmed, autopsies and COVID tests are not being carried out in most cases. So we may never know how many were caused directly by COVID. But it's very possible that some of these people have died from blockages due to coronary artery disease, blockages that at any other time could have been treated promptly, opened via angioplasty in a catheterization lab, saving those lives. It seems logical that these cases may be some of the "missing" heart attacks noted by hospitals.
> 
> Regardless of the direct cause, most of these hundreds of cardiac arrest deaths at home can be attributed to the pandemic, because even those who didn’t have the COVID-19 virus in their bodies died because COVID-19 is in "the system." The virus has flooded hospitals, emergency services and the hearts and minds of everyone. Greco observed that "the fear is worse than anything. I attribute this to the fear of COVID and patients not reporting their symptoms, and don't want to go to the hospital to get it checked out, the fear of catching this disease...."
> 
> “In this uncertain time we need to be sure our patients are certain that rapid responses to heart attack symptoms still matter – and that the hospitals are prepared to keep people safe and treat them rapidly – and we will lose lives needlessly if people stay home with their heart attacks,” Dr. Krumholtz told Angioplasty.Org.
> 
> Despite ambulance wait times, despite over-burdened emergency rooms, despite the dangers of COVID-19, cardiologists are urgently advising patients to call doctors and 911 if they have chest pain and/or related heart attack symptoms. The personnel, equipment and procedures are ready and waiting in catheterization labs to save the lives of heart attack sufferers.
> 
> Dr. Robert A. Harrington, Chair, Department of Medicine, Stanford University and President of the American Heart Association told Angioplasty.Org: "We know that patients with chronic cardiovascular disease have an increased risk of bad outcomes [from COVID-19], so patients are understandably concerned or even scared about seeking emergency care even if cardiac symptoms are acutely worse. From an American Heart Association perspective, we would want our patients to seek care with their cardiologist, most/many of us are doing video visits at a markedly increased rate. Or, through the emergency medical system."



There may still be the same number of cardiac patients, however not every cardiac event turns into an arrest nor does every emergent cardiac patient receive first medical intervention from EMS.  Once the accounting is done, the previous year totals (first seen in emerg and treated - successfully or not - plus first seen by EMS . . .) may jibe with this year totals even though this year will have a greater percentage of non-ROSC.


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> OMFG.... in the good old days, there would be a gallows built nearby pretty quickly to take care of that kind of 'leadership'.



I'm inclined to believe it's true based on other reports coming out.  Staff in a Toronto area nursing home have walked out.  I remember a week or so ago telling my wife about a similar report at nursing home in Spain and told her Canadians would never do that.  Well it's happened.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6804902/coronavirus-markham-home-staff-walkoff/

Sorry, quoted the wrong post. lol


----------



## stellarpanther

Something I've been hearing from my parents is that a lot of people are being forced to go without other healthcare, for example, my step-father was supposed to go for a cancer screening in a couple weeks after having successful surgery 6 months ago and they wanted to make sure nothing has come back.  It's on hold because of this virus.  Apparently this is something that is widespread, COVID-19 is extremely serious but why is everything else except emergencies being put on hold?  How many people are going to die from something else because the medical system is basically shut down for everything except COVID-19.  I have a family member who works at a Lab and they are basically sitting around doing nothing as doctors for the most part are not sending people for test.  Not all of the Labs are doing COVI|D-19 testing in Ontario.


----------



## mariomike

Kind of morbid to suggest, but I suspect when this begins to wind down that many dead folk will be discovered in their homes.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Something I've been hearing from my parents is that a lot of people are being forced to go without other healthcare, for example, my step-father was supposed to go for a cancer screening in a couple weeks after having successful surgery 6 months ago and they wanted to make sure nothing has come back.  It's on hold because of this virus.  Apparently this is something that is widespread, COVID-19 is extremely serious but why is everything else except emergencies being put on hold?  How many people are going to die from something else because the medical system is basically shut down for everything except COVID-19.  I have a family member who works at a Lab and they are basically sitting around doing nothing as doctors for the most part are not sending people for test.  Not all of the Labs are doing COVI|D-19 testing in Ontario.



The major issue is hospital/ICU capacity. They cancelled everything non-essential because the fear was cases doubling every day, which would rapidly overcome the health system. Routine screening/testing would also expose your step-father to an environment where there are COVID-19 cases and possibly asymptomatic health care workers, who could expose him to the virus. Doctors were supposed to go case by case and cancel procedures for anyone that could wait.


----------



## GR66

Quirky said:
			
		

> Just bringing some retrospect to calm the social hysteria going on in Canada over this.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6503722/coronavirus-death-risk/



While Cancer, Cardiovascular Disease, Accidents and Suicide are currently more likely to kill you in Canada, none of these are contagious.  Influenza is contagious but the difference is that Covid-19 appears to be somewhere in the range of 10x more deadly than the flu.

Hysteria
noun
"exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement, especially among a group of people"

Is concern over Covid-19 "exaggerated" when it is a contagious virus that has a death rate 10x that of the 4th leading cause of death in Canada in the article you posted?

Also note that the article was dated Feb 4th when the total number of cases of Covid-19 worldwide was 20,000 and the total deaths was around 400 ("mostly in mainland China).

According to Wordometer the current number of confirmed (i.e. tested confirmed) cases is 1,696,860 and deaths are at 102,642 worldwide.  The US had 1,995 deaths confirmed from Covid-19 in the last 24-hours.

Possibly the response isn't so "exaggerated".


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> I was referring to cardiac arrests.
> 
> FDNY has had a 400 percent increase in cardiac arrest calls from the same time period last year.



Buddy of mine had severe symptoms for covid and was in the Ottawa hospital getting tested. He said the doctor told him the virus attacks peoples heart and other organs too. Something about mimicking cardiac arrest symptoms. He said respiratory issues are later symptoms.

That could be cause for the increase in heart attacks if what the doctor said was accurate.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=GR66]

Also note that the article was dated Feb 4th when the total number of cases of Covid-19 worldwide was 20,000 and the total deaths was around 400 ("mostly in mainland China).
[/quote]

 :nod:


----------



## ballz

GR66 said:
			
		

> While Cancer, Cardiovascular Disease, Accidents and Suicide are currently more likely to kill you in Canada, none of these are contagious.  Influenza is contagious but the difference is that Covid-19 appears to be somewhere in the range of 10x more deadly than the flu.
> 
> Hysteria
> noun
> "exaggerated or uncontrollable emotion or excitement, especially among a group of people"
> 
> Is concern over Covid-19 "exaggerated" when it is a contagious virus that has a death rate 10x that of the 4th leading cause of death in Canada in the article you posted?
> 
> Also note that the article was dated Feb 4th when the total number of cases of Covid-19 worldwide was 20,000 and the total deaths was around 400 ("mostly in mainland China).
> 
> According to Wordometer the current number of confirmed (i.e. tested confirmed) cases is 1,696,860 and deaths are at 102,642 worldwide.  The US had 1,995 deaths confirmed from Covid-19 in the last 24-hours.
> 
> Possibly the response isn't so "exaggerated".



Given the below visualization which shows how COVID-19 deaths have now grown to surpass all others and be the leading cause of death in America, I'd say the response is warranted.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1712761/

Mind blown.


----------



## dapaterson

CJOC makes Giant Military Cats

https://twitter.com/giantcat9/status/1248561056647168000/photo/1


----------



## Quirky

GR66 said:
			
		

> Possibly the response isn't so "exaggerated".



We won’t know the full side affects of all these measures until years down the line. It’s easy to say what we are doing now is the right call when you see curves and deaths. I’m looking at the economy and job losses now, it’s going to be really, really tough for millions of Canadians.


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:
			
		

> We won’t know the full side affects of all these measures until years down the line. It’s easy to say what we are doing now is the right call when you see curves and deaths. I’m looking at the economy and job losses now, it’s going to be really, really tough for millions of Canadians.



As of yesterday over 5 million have applied for CERB or EI, that's huge.


----------



## mariomike

ballz said:
			
		

> Given the below visualization which shows how COVID-19 deaths have now grown to surpass all others and be the leading cause of death in America, I'd say the response is warranted.



Right.




			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> It’s easy to say what we are doing now is the right call when you see curves and deaths.



Right.


----------



## stellarpanther

I don't know how high up the CoC people are on this site, the CDS could be here for all I know but has anyone heard any talk about how long the CAF will continue having people off work or working minimally from home.  I know a couple people in the Transition Centre - RTD, doing very well on their recovery, one from PTSD another from an injury and wondering how this is going to effect them.  I have a buddy who works at CFRG and said he gets the odd email from his boss once a day to see how he's doing but that's it.  Lot's of people are in this same boat and wondering what will happen because this isn't going away for a year or so, IMO.


----------



## dapaterson

The problem right now is that no one knows how things will unfold.  So the CDS on down are in Force Protection mode - which in plain English translates into keep people safe so that, if called upon, they are ready.

I know that in some parts of the CAF they have moved to a team approach, where half the staff work half the time.  As better medical knowledge is developed, measures to keep people apart / treat carriers / vaccinate people arise, further actions will be taken.

Right now the public service is at minimum manning at least to the end of April.   I suspect similar measures will be in place for the CAF even longer.

If you're at home right now, your job is to take care of yourself and ensure your own readiness, and to support and care for your co-located family.

The last time CAF leadership had to deal with this was 1918 - and despite your opinion of the CWOs in the CAF, they weren't around then, so we're learning as we go here...


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know how high up the CoC people are on this site, the CDS could be here for all I know but has anyone heard any talk about how long the CAF will continue having people off work or working minimally from home.  I know a couple people in the Transition Centre - RTD, doing very well on their recovery, one from PTSD another from an injury and wondering how this is going to effect them.  I have a buddy who works at CFRG and said he gets the odd email from his boss once a day to see how he's doing but that's it.  Lot's of people are in this same boat and wondering what will happen because this isn't going away for a year or so, IMO.



At this point I genuinely think no one really knows at all.  My department originally gave us an order to stay home until 10 apr.  We were told recently that return to work following 10 apr wasn’t happening and to continue to work from home for the foreseeable future.  We would know when they would know.  But we are also better equipped to work from home.  

I think this is a take it as it comes scénario.  At this point we are probably stuck in this state for April at least.  In a few weeks we’ll see where we are at and another decision will be made and so on.


----------



## stellarpanther

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The problem right now is that no one knows how things will unfold.  So the CDS on down are in Force Protection mode - which in plain English translates into keep people safe so that, if called upon, they are ready.
> 
> I know that in some parts of the CAF they have moved to a team approach, where half the staff work half the time.  As better medical knowledge is developed, measures to keep people apart / treat carriers / vaccinate people arise, further actions will be taken.
> 
> Right now the public service is at minimum manning at least to the end of April.   I suspect similar measures will be in place for the CAF even longer.
> 
> If you're at home right now, your job is to take care of yourself and ensure your own readiness, and to support and care for your co-located family.
> 
> The last time CAF leadership had to deal with this was 1918 - and despite your opinion of the CWOs in the CAF, they weren't around then, so we're learning as we go here...



Everything you said makes sense, I think some people worry that they could lose their job because of this... I'll be honest, it's crossed my mind a couple of times too.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> MarioMike, curious for your personal take on it?  (If your willing, that is?)



I can't relate to it. They are working 16-hour shifts, and doing a dozen cardiac arrests. We did two or three a week. Maybe.

They may not like it, but I hope the public - those who do not have essential jobs - will stay home until the scientists can get this thing under control.


----------



## Quirky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know how high up the CoC people are on this site, the CDS could be here for all I know but has anyone heard any talk about how long the CAF will continue having people off work or working minimally from home.  I know a couple people in the Transition Centre - RTD, doing very well on their recovery, one from PTSD another from an injury and wondering how this is going to effect them.  I have a buddy who works at CFRG and said he gets the odd email from his boss once a day to see how he's doing but that's it.  Lot's of people are in this same boat and wondering what will happen because this isn't going away for a year or so, IMO.



Besides NORAD duties, which are 24/7 regardless, and maritime patrols (don’t know what that entails), nothing else we do is critical. Best thing the CAF can do is stay out of the way unless required by provinces. Missed training, lapses of quals are secondary to health. We can catch up on all that later.


----------



## dimsum

Quirky said:
			
		

> Besides NORAD duties, which are 24/7 regardless, and maritime patrols (don’t know what that entails), nothing else we do is critical. Best thing the CAF can do is stay out of the way unless required by provinces. Missed training, lapses of quals are secondary to health. We can catch up on all that later.



Also SAR.


----------



## dapaterson

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Everything you said makes sense, I think some people worry that they could lose their job because of this... I'll be honest, it's crossed my mind a couple of times too.



In my work as a DND civilian I have delivered (personally) briefings up to and including the Deputy Minister and Chief of Defence Staff (they were pissed off by my briefing, but that's neither here nor there) and have supported briefings to the Minister (where there were two CAF and two public service personnel in the room).  I may not have 100% accurate information, but I am reasonably well plugged in.

To the best of my knowledge, the primary concern right now, given reduced ability to recruit and train, is to protect and preserve the current CAF and the current CAF personnel.  Do not worry about downsizing or reductions to the CAF.

You should not worry right now about "will I have a job going forward" but rather about "how can I keep myself safe, fit and ready for when the CAF calls on me to be ready".


----------



## SupersonicMax

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't know how high up the CoC people are on this site, the CDS could be here for all I know but has anyone heard any talk about how long the CAF will continue having people off work or working minimally from home.  I know a couple people in the Transition Centre - RTD, doing very well on their recovery, one from PTSD another from an injury and wondering how this is going to effect them.  I have a buddy who works at CFRG and said he gets the odd email from his boss once a day to see how he's doing but that's it.  Lot's of people are in this same boat and wondering what will happen because this isn't going away for a year or so, IMO.



Right now, CAF directive is to only conduct critical and essential tasks until 30 Apr.  More decisions will be made during the third week of April as to further restrictions or relaxation of directive.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hundreds volunteer to help New York's overwhelmed funeral homes 

Hundreds of volunteers have come forward to help funeral homes and hospital mortuaries in New York City that have been overwhelmed by the number of deaths during the coronavirus pandemic.

One funeral director had described the situation as a “state of emergency,” with some forced to ask families to try to keep their loved ones’ bodies in hospitals for as long as possible to allow funeral services to cope. Some cemeteries and crematoriums have reported being booked up for weeks.

According to Johns Hopkins, 5,150 people had died in hospital in New York City after contracting coronavirus as of Friday, though the death toll is believed to be higher. The New York Times reported that New York fire department data showed 1,125 people were pronounced dead in their homes or on the street in the first five days of April, more than eight times the 131 deaths recorded during the same period in 2019.

“The last couple of weeks have been totally out of control,” Matthew Pinto, director of the Provenzano Lanza funeral home in Manhattan, told the New York Post. “On a normal day, our funeral home will do between one and two calls. Now we’re doing eight or nine. Honestly, we’re not equipped for it.”

Funeral directors have been running out of storage for remains, with some trying to rent refrigerated vehicles to expand their facilities. Hospitals in New York have already been using refrigerated trucks to store the dead, and the city set up 45 mobile morgues earlier this month.

Joe Neufeld, director of the Gerard J Neufeld funeral home in Queens, told the paper he went from holding about 14 funerals a week to more than 50. He said he was was no longer able to offer full services because his viewing room was filled with people’s remains.
“We had no choice,” he said. “I’ve had families call me telling me they can’t find anyone to take their loved one.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/10/new-york-funeral-homes-crematoriums-cemeteries-coronavirus


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Besides NORAD duties, which are 24/7 regardless, and maritime patrols (don’t know what that entails), nothing else we do is critical. Best thing the CAF can do is stay out of the way unless required by provinces. Missed training, lapses of quals are secondary to health. We can catch up on all that later.



Im on the Fredericton, we are still on station in the Black Sea, and wont ber returning home until the summer(ish).  There are more than a few logistcians who are very essential to maintaining our station back home in Halifax who are putting in lots of hours right now.  I will be so bold as to say, I have never seen BLog turn too and be so supportive before.


----------



## Remius

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Everything you said makes sense, I think some people worry that they could lose their job because of this... I'll be honest, it's crossed my mind a couple of times too.



It’s a valid concern.  I doubt it is an immediate concern.  Any cuts later will be at least after the next election cycle.   I would start worrying in about 5 years when governments will have to grapple with deficits and budgets that will feel the effects of all of this spending.


----------



## mariomike

Remembering being quarantined - separate from my family - during SARS, the biggest fear was bringing the job home. 

The Grand Hotel in Toronto is offering free suites to paramedics. That's very kind of them. Especially considering it is rated as a four-star hotel.
https://grandhoteltoronto.com/

The City of Toronto has leased at least two other hotels for the same purpose. 

Another thing I have read about is RV companies temporarily parking their RVs in paramedic's driveways - free of charge. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/haidee-anderson-western-rv-country-local-heroes-calgary-1.5528952

An Alberta wife married to a paramedichad this to say,

"I'll deliver meals outside onto the driveway, while he's in the trailer, and he'll come and grab them after I've left. It's not the ideal living situation, but to this family, it's a massive relief — an extra layer of protection."


----------



## NavyShooter

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Im on the Fredericton, we are still on station in the Black Sea, and wont ber returning home until the summer(ish).  There are more than a few logistcians who are very essential to maintaining our station back home in Halifax who are putting in lots of hours right now.  I will be so bold as to say, I have never seen BLog turn too and be so supportive before.




I know this first hand.  I'm working in the warehouse that's supporting you. As of next week we are going to a 'team' based approach - the same group of people will be working together for a week - then the next team comes in and works the following week, and so on.  That way if one of the people on the team gets sick, they still have full teams (I'm not going to disclose how many on this source) that can step in and pick up the workload.


We've got folks on call 24/7 as always, and have personnel in supporting as much as possible.  Materiel is moving.  Our main focus is supporting deployed units, supporting units getting ready to deploy, and supporting the organization that's standing up for domestic response.


NS


----------



## Jarnhamar

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Im on the Fredericton, we are still on station in the Black Sea,



Do different seas behave differently? Like can you notice a difference between the black sea and North Sea, or pacific vs Atlantic? Or is it all the same?


----------



## mariomike

The National Guard uses Enterprise rental vans to pick up hundreds of DOA's from New York City homes.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8202125/National-Guard-New-York-City-picking-dead-bodies-Enterprise-rental-vans.html

Wonder if the next person who rents that cargo van from Enterprise knows that the people before him used it to move DOA's that might have been COVID-19 victims?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Of course, a pandemic always brings out the best in the conspiracy theory crowd:

5G protesters sabotage Dutch phone towers

Opponents of the rollout of a new 5G data network have damaged and set alight several towers in the Netherlands. Activists have expressed concerns over possible health risks and privacy violations.

https://www.dw.com/en/5g-protesters-sabotage-dutch-phone-towers/a-53094033


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> The National Guard uses Enterprise rental vans to pick up hundreds of DOA's from New York City homes.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8202125/National-Guard-New-York-City-picking-dead-bodies-Enterprise-rental-vans.html
> 
> Wonder if the next person who rents that cargo van from Enterprise knows that the people before him used it to move DOA's that might have been COVID-19 victims?



Enterprise, we'll pick you up!

Shouldn't be an issue with a good power wash on the interior. 



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Of course, a pandemic always brings out the best in the conspiracy theory crowd:
> 
> 5G protesters sabotage Dutch phone towers



I've never understood the whole 5G data tower thing, 'Rona being a Chinese bio-weapon is more believable at this point.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do different seas behave differently? Like can you notice a difference between the black sea and North Sea, or pacific vs Atlantic? Or is it all the same?



Some yes.  

This is my 3rd time sailing the Black Sea, it was always flat and calm before.  This time we have seen 3-4m waves.

The North Atlantic and the North Sea are both notoriously rough.  4-6m (and much higher) waves are the norm,  depending on the time of year.  

The Med is a crap shoot.  I have seen a bath tub and I have seen 8-10m waves in the med.  

I have no experience sailing the left coast, so I really cant say about the Pacific.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Enterprise, we'll pick you up!
> 
> Shouldn't be an issue with a good power wash on the interior.



I don't know how seriously they take their decontamination process. But, it is actually a 3-hour procedure. 

https://twitter.com/ABC7HeatherGraf/status/1248083109758844930


----------



## OceanBonfire

US passed the half a million confirmed COVID-19 cases last night:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-fda-ftc-warn-infowars-selling-products/story?id=70078277

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-19-latest-news-2020-04-11/

It will soon be the country with the highest number of COVID-19 deaths, surpassing Italy.

Map from Johns Hopkins University:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html


----------



## brihard

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> US passed the half a million confirmed COVID-19 cases last night:
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-fda-ftc-warn-infowars-selling-products/story?id=70078277
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-19-latest-news-2020-04-11/
> 
> It will soon be the country with the highest number of COVID-19 deaths, surpassing Italy.
> 
> Map from Johns Hopkins University:
> 
> https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html



The Johns Hopkins map has a fair bit of lag. The US surpassed Italy for deaths this morning and will exceed 20,000 total today.

I suspect we’ll see a ‘stats lag’ over the long weekend, with a bigger uptick through middle of next week. Sundays seem to usually bit a bit lower and slower, and this week that’ll be extended.


----------



## MilEME09

Not to mention so many have claimed religious freedom and refused to close churches and avoid large masses, as a result I bet we will see a large spike in US cases over the next week and a half. It will only get worse for America.


----------



## FJAG

Good article on how the bodies immune system works with viruses:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/10/heres-how-body-gains-immunity-coronavirus

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> The National Guard uses Enterprise rental vans to pick up hundreds of DOA's from New York City homes.



_ But more people die from the flu, so nothing to see here. _


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> I suspect we’ll see a ‘stats lag’ over the long weekend, with a bigger uptick through middle of next week. Sundays seem to usually bit a bit lower and slower, and this week that’ll be extended.


Also, some places don't report over the weekend until Monday, hence what some people see as a dip in weekend stats on a variety of counters.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> _ But more people die from the flu, so nothing to see here. _



Once again, a crisis is helping me decide who to cull from my social media networks: holocaust and Covid 19 deniers are currently topping the list.


----------



## daftandbarmy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Once again, a crisis is helping me decide who to cull from my social media networks: holocaust and Covid 19 deniers are currently topping the list.


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Once again, a crisis is helping me decide who to cull from my social media networks: holocaust and Covid 19 deniers are currently topping the list.



My teenager calls them Edgelords.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've noticed a sort of minor desperation by some on the right wing of American politics to discredit Dr. Fauci on political grounds.



He has been receiving death threats. 
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk031fOZ9qhUUNhNWR4vO9pxnGlCntA%3A1586631324780&ei=nBKSXuWOL8HLtQbvyo7ABg&q=fauci+%22death+threats%22&oq=fauci+%22death+threats%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA0oKCBcSBjEyLTIzMUoICBgSBDEyLTRQ8CRYqjNg-DZoAHAAeACAAcoDiAGOB5IBBzAuMy40LTGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjlzIKkhuHoAhXBZc0KHW-lA2gQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1586631335474


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> He has been receiving death threats.
> https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk031fOZ9qhUUNhNWR4vO9pxnGlCntA%3A1586631324780&ei=nBKSXuWOL8HLtQbvyo7ABg&q=fauci+%22death+threats%22&oq=fauci+%22death+threats%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA0oKCBcSBjEyLTIzMUoICBgSBDEyLTRQ8CRYqjNg-DZoAHAAeACAAcoDiAGOB5IBBzAuMy40LTGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjlzIKkhuHoAhXBZc0KHW-lA2gQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1586631335474



Name a public figure who hasn't received death threats.


----------



## Good2Golf

kkwd said:
			
		

> Name a public figure who hasn't received death threats.



Capt Crozier?


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> He has been receiving death threats.
> https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk031fOZ9qhUUNhNWR4vO9pxnGlCntA%3A1586631324780&ei=nBKSXuWOL8HLtQbvyo7ABg&q=fauci+%22death+threats%22&oq=fauci+%22death+threats%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQA0oKCBcSBjEyLTIzMUoICBgSBDEyLTRQ8CRYqjNg-DZoAHAAeACAAcoDiAGOB5IBBzAuMy40LTGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjlzIKkhuHoAhXBZc0KHW-lA2gQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1586631335474





> I've noticed a sort of minor desperation by some on the right wing of American politics to discredit Dr. Fauci on political grounds.


https://army.ca/forums/threads/131800/post-1605062.html#msg1605062

Can you attribute those threats to any particular person or political persuasion? Or is it just, you know, "must be".


----------



## kkwd

Here are the latest Canadian numbers on cases and deaths. It is a Canadian government link. 

https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2f1a13ca0b29422f9b34660f0b705043/
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1


----------



## garb811

Some interesting insight into what people have been buying when.

Walmart CEO says we're in the 'hair colour' phase of panic buying


> ...
> Here's a look at how buying patterns have shifted in the last few weeks:
> 
> Week 1: Hand sanitizers, soaps and disinfectants
> ...
> Week 2: Toilet paper
> ...
> Weeks 3 and 4: Spiral hams and baking yeast
> ...
> Week 5: Hair clippers and hair dye on the rise
> ...
> More at link.


----------



## Jarnhamar

garb811 said:
			
		

> Some interesting insight into what people have been buying when.
> 
> Walmart CEO says we're in the 'hair colour' phase of panic buying



Funny you mention that. I'm looking for some pink or blue beard hair dye for my Zoom meetings.


----------



## mariomike

FDNY graduated 178 EMTs early from the academy at Fort Totten so they can hit the streets to re-enforce their department, and help the people of NYC. 

Complete with masks and social distancing.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> FDNY graduated 178 EMTs early from the academy at Fort Totten so they can hit the streets to re-enforce their department, and help the people of NYC.



That's a lot of wasted masks for a graduation ceremony and picture opportunity.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's a lot of wasted masks for a graduation ceremony and picture opportunity.



They skipped the graduation ceremony. 

The "picture opportunity", as you put, is all there is. 

It also helps reassure anxious taxpayers that help is on the way. Their response times have risen dramatically due to the pandemic. 

They hit the streets tomorrow.

We had a "picture opportunity" when we graduated BMQ. Don't see why First Responders can't have one.  

Not sure what their mask policy is. We had to wear N95s at all times when on duty - except in station - during SARS. 

In the cozy comfort and safety of our beds, personally, I'm thank-full there are First Responders on the streets around the clock we can call for help if and when we need it.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> In the cozy comfort and safety of our beds, personally, I'm thank-full there are First Responders on the streets around the clock we can call for help if and when we need it.


You are exactly right there. While keyboard commandos argue petty politics on the interwebs there are true heroes hitting the streets doing things of worth. 

Staff edit to fix quote box.


----------



## tomahawk6

It is a good time to be retired. Imagine trying to man a battalion when over half its strength is down with the virus.


----------



## The Bread Guy

garb811 said:
			
		

> Some interesting insight into what people have been buying when.
> 
> Walmart CEO says we're in the 'hair colour' phase of panic buying


Hong Kong's catching up to the flour phase ...
_*"After long lines for toilet paper and masks, another item is flying off Hong Kong shelves during coronavirus outbreak – flour"*_


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=mariomike]
We had a "picture opportunity" when we graduated BMQ. Don't see why First Responders can't have one.[/quote]

Did you wear masks during a shortage of masks during a pandemic for the picture? Not the same situation my friend.  

There's what, 100 masks? 200 masks being used in that picture? Maybe not a big dent in the mask supply, not sure if it's worth it for a photo op regardless.


----------



## daftandbarmy

From the Business Council of BC:

OPINION: COVID-19 recession scenarios for B.C.: one is bad; one is worse

Under our baseline scenario, the B.C. economy contracts by approximately 7% in 2020 – a very steep recession by historical standards. Given all the uncertainty, it is better to think about a decline in GDP in the range of 6% to 8%. For context, during the 2009 Great Recession B.C. suffered a 2.6% drop in real gross domestic product. This recession will be worse.

The second scenario assumes business closures are in place for longer, travel restrictions are slower to be lifted, and the worldwide recession is deeper. With closures extending through the summer, there are more business insolvencies and some furloughed workers have no jobs to return to. In this even bleaker scenario, the provincial economy could shrink by 10% to 12%. Decreases in economic output in the 7% to 12% range are unprecedented. It is possible we are too pessimistic. Some or most business activity could resume sooner than we are assuming. But at this stage we view this as unlikely.

https://bcbc.com/insights-and-opinions/opinion-covid-19-recession-scenarios-for-b-c-one-is-bad-one-is-worse


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Did you wear masks during a shortage of masks during a pandemic for the picture? Not the same situation my friend.
> 
> There's what, 100 masks? 200 masks being used in that picture? Maybe not a big dent in the mask supply, not sure if it's worth it for a photo op regardless.



How hard would it have been to have a grad pic with individual photos instead of a group shot?


----------



## dapaterson

Remius said:
			
		

> How hard would it have been to have a grad pic with individual photos instead of a group shot?



Then photoshop the faces here...


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:
			
		

> While keyboard commandos argue petty politics on the interwebs there are true heroes hitting the streets doing things of worth.





			
				Remius said:
			
		

> How hard would it have been to have a grad pic with individual photos instead of a group shot?



Taking time for 178 individual photos, instead of one single group photo, would really give the "keyboard commandos" something to gripe about. 

They also skipped their graduation ceremony.

They also graduated ahead of schedule, so they could hit the streets today. 

As already mentioned, we were mandated to wear N95's at all times when on duty - except in station - during SARS.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Taking time for 178 individual photos, instead of one single group photo, would really give the "keyboard commandos" something to gripe about.


If they're anything like BMQ graduates then there's 178 of them with bathroom selfies in their uniforms. Everyone upload a picture and make a nice collage. Added bonus of actually seeing the persons face. 

I'm not just a keyboard commando, I'm a thinker and problem solver too  :nod:


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Did you wear masks during a shortage of masks during a pandemic for the picture? Not the same situation my friend.
> 
> There's what, 100 masks? 200 masks being used in that picture? Maybe not a big dent in the mask supply, not sure if it's worth it for a photo op regardless.



It's the new normal (and the new standard working uniform).  These newbies will be on the street the following day (some, maybe, immediately following the ceremony).  As they make their way home (probably a high proportion by public transit - it is NYC after all) for a few quiet hours before the proverbial hits the fan, they still have to protect themselves.  I see nothing wrong with the use of the masks by these immediate reinforcements to the front line.

And it didn't take long for things to change.  This is what a typical grad looked like in February.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/fdnyhome/albums/72157713083402306


----------



## OceanBonfire

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Did you wear masks during a shortage of masks during a pandemic for the picture? Not the same situation my friend.
> 
> There's what, 100 masks? 200 masks being used in that picture? Maybe not a big dent in the mask supply, not sure if it's worth it for a photo op regardless.



1,400 here though:

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/coronavirus/2020/04/09/more-than-1400-air-force-trainees-graduate-from-bmt-wearing-face-masks/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gatewaywing/sets/72157713824292757/


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Healthcrats cure is proving worse than the disease

Our country is now run by the Healthcrats.

The previously ignored public health agencies, buried deep within various levels of government, are the experts politicians now defer to. This would be good news if, on rare occasions, the Healthcrats were right about something. Actually, anything.

Dr. Theresa Tam is the Healthcrat who runs the federal government. Her record on being wrong is spotless.

Sixty days before ordering the country to shut down, Tam advised that COVID-19 was not a serious threat. She told the government that “the chances of an outbreak are low.”

Days before the borders were sealed, Tam advised that closing the borders was unwise. This week, Tam nearly backed over herself reversing on the efficacy of wearing masks.

She is, if nothing else, consistent.

The CEO of Public Health Ontario, Dr. Peter Donnelly, (now on leave) is no slouch in the being wrong business.

As the globe teetered on the brink of this pandemic, Donnelly assured the government that Ontario was ready. He said, “we are not complacent, we are working extremely hard on this, but we are quietly confident that we can handle this.”

That, my friends, is the Healthcrat equivalent of Neville Chamberlain’s infamous declaration of “peace in our time.”

The recently released (under duress) federal government memos on COVID-19 from January and February starkly reveal the level of hubris in the executive offices of Canada’s Healthcrats.

The Healthcrats assured the politicians that Canada was ready for a pandemic, blissfully ignoring warnings that would have alerted the crack management team at my local Home Hardware.

Warnings, such as the 2017 caution from Ontario’s Auditor General that some 26,000 pallets of health-care emergency supplies were about to stale date. Somehow, Canada managed to ship tons of personal protection equipment (PPE) to China in February, putting our health-care workers at risk.

My local hospital administrators know better. They stopped the planned destruction of some stale dated equipment with the rather pointed observation that masks aren’t milk — they don’t go bad.

Canada entered this pandemic with no actionable plan, insufficient PPE, woeful capacity to test and monitor and no supply of simple things like hand sanitizer.

Ontario revealed its COVID-19 modelling last week. It might have been the weakest government slide deck ever.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/snobelen-the-healthcrats-cure-is-proving-worse-than-the-disease


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> ... Dr. Theresa Tam is the Healthcrat who runs the federal government. Her record on being wrong is spotless ... The CEO of Public Health Ontario, Dr. Peter Donnelly, (now on leave) is no slouch in the being wrong business ...


Funny seeing a former politician rant on bureaucrats, not realizing it's a _politician_ that takes any advice given or not, _makes the decision_, and that once the decision is made, the bureaucrat either supports the boss, or (theoretically, anyway) leaves. 

To pick an example close to home, I'm sure nobody in the military has ever faced a situation where they recommend x to higher, then had to defend decision y because the boss made that call instead.

It'll make for interesting ATIP/Freedom of Information requests after all this is over to see what was _advised_ vs. what advice/decisions were _taken_.


----------



## PuckChaser

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It'll make for interesting ATIP/Freedom of Information requests after all this is over to see what was _advised_ vs. what advice/decisions were _taken_.



Expect a lot of "Cabinet Confidence" a la SNC Lavalin.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Expect a lot of "Cabinet Confidence" a la SNC Lavalin.


 :nod:


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Healthcrats cure is proving worse than the disease
> 
> Our country is now run by the Healthcrats.
> 
> The previously ignored public health agencies, buried deep within various levels of government, are the experts politicians now defer to. This would be good news if, on rare occasions, the Healthcrats were right about something. Actually, anything.
> 
> Dr. Theresa Tam is the Healthcrat who runs the federal government. Her record on being wrong is spotless.
> 
> Sixty days before ordering the country to shut down, Tam advised that COVID-19 was not a serious threat. She told the government that “the chances of an outbreak are low.”
> 
> Days before the borders were sealed, Tam advised that closing the borders was unwise. This week, Tam nearly backed over herself reversing on the efficacy of wearing masks.
> 
> She is, if nothing else, consistent.
> 
> The CEO of Public Health Ontario, Dr. Peter Donnelly, (now on leave) is no slouch in the being wrong business.
> 
> As the globe teetered on the brink of this pandemic, Donnelly assured the government that Ontario was ready. He said, “we are not complacent, we are working extremely hard on this, but we are quietly confident that we can handle this.”
> 
> That, my friends, is the Healthcrat equivalent of Neville Chamberlain’s infamous declaration of “peace in our time.”
> 
> The recently released (under duress) federal government memos on COVID-19 from January and February starkly reveal the level of hubris in the executive offices of Canada’s Healthcrats.
> 
> The Healthcrats assured the politicians that Canada was ready for a pandemic, blissfully ignoring warnings that would have alerted the crack management team at my local Home Hardware.
> 
> Warnings, such as the 2017 caution from Ontario’s Auditor General that some 26,000 pallets of health-care emergency supplies were about to stale date. Somehow, Canada managed to ship tons of personal protection equipment (PPE) to China in February, putting our health-care workers at risk.
> 
> My local hospital administrators know better. They stopped the planned destruction of some stale dated equipment with the rather pointed observation that masks aren’t milk — they don’t go bad.
> 
> Canada entered this pandemic with no actionable plan, insufficient PPE, woeful capacity to test and monitor and no supply of simple things like hand sanitizer.
> 
> Ontario revealed its COVID-19 modelling last week. It might have been the weakest government slide deck ever.
> 
> https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/snobelen-the-healthcrats-cure-is-proving-worse-than-the-disease




Prior to this situation, I hadn't paid much attention to Dr. Tam as I simply had no reason to.


To be fair to many healthcare professionals around the world - they were communicating more or less the information they were receiving from the WHO, which in turn - as we all know now - was basically just saying whatever the Chinese wanted them to say.

The situation evolved into a crisis, and that crisis ended up growing faster & more serious than any of us could have imagined.  Scientists and researchers jumped on it, discovered some startling things that weren't previously known, and several industries either directly involved or supporting of healthcare have since worked at a record pace to find and field solutions.


It's easy to look back in hindsight and say "You should have known this, or done this, etc etc."   I'm sure if Dr. Tam knew how quickly the virus would spread and the potential numbers of deaths, she would have advised the government accordingly.    :2c:


----------



## dapaterson

Remember, you can't spell Batshit Crazy without B.C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/delta-police-have-no-powers-to-stop-meetings-of-covid-19-conspiracy-theorists-chief-says-1.5525849


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Funny seeing a former politician rant on bureaucrats, not realizing it's a politician that takes any advice given or not, makes the decision, and that once the decision is made, the bureaucrat either supports the boss, or (theoretically, anyway) leaves. 

Irrespective of the decision, it helps - a lot - if the advice is correct.

GIGO.


----------



## PMedMoe

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember, you can't spell Batshit Crazy without B.C.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/delta-police-have-no-powers-to-stop-meetings-of-covid-19-conspiracy-theorists-chief-says-1.5525849



Too bad they couldn't all catch it without transmission to others.  Asshats.   :


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Meanwhile the Irish ensure civilization continues https://www.irishpost.com/news/belfast-pub-delivering-pints-freshly-poured-guinness-door-door-lockdown-183328?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR328LdLN1Y0dxUlwMEBJgLv4zhhdkRNpDzcdNcvcLmOcNkoQ45MhYpIw2Y


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There's what, 100 masks? 200 masks being used in that picture? Maybe not a big dent in the mask supply, not sure if it's worth it for a photo op regardless.





			
				OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> 1,400 here though:
> 
> https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/coronavirus/2020/04/09/more-than-1400-air-force-trainees-graduate-from-bmt-wearing-face-masks/
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/gatewaywing/sets/72157713824292757/



178 probationary NYC EMTs vs "More than 1,400 Air Force trainees" wearing masks for 'a photo op'? Interesting.


----------



## FJAG

Colin P said:
			
		

> Meanwhile the Irish ensure civilization continues https://www.irishpost.com/news/belfast-pub-delivering-pints-freshly-poured-guinness-door-door-lockdown-183328?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=web&fbclid=IwAR328LdLN1Y0dxUlwMEBJgLv4zhhdkRNpDzcdNcvcLmOcNkoQ45MhYpIw2Y



That's the one good thing about Guinness, it doesn't really get any worse if sitting in a warm plastic glass for untold minutes and being driven around town in a bumpy van on cobblestone streets.  :stirpot:

Pilsner, forever.  :cheers:

 ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Irrespective of the decision, it helps - a lot - if the advice is correct.
> 
> GIGO.


100%, assuming we know _all_ of the advice that was given before the politicians decided.  And only the advisors and politicians know the answer to _that_ question.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> 178 probationary NYC EMTs vs "More than 1,400 Air Force trainees" wearing masks for 'a photo op'? Interesting.



Nobody said vs. Any number of masks wasted during a pandemic is stupid. EMTs, LEOs or Military grads.


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Any number of masks wasted during a pandemic is stupid.



OK. Regarding the FDNY probationary EMTs. 

Not my Department, but I was once a probie myself. You keep your mouth shut and do what you're told.

During our little pandemic, we were mandated to wear N95's - not surgical style masks - 24/7. Only time they were removed was if > 3 metres from another human being. On-duty, or off-duty.

Those EMTs in the "photo op" ( wearing only surgical style masks, that can be made at home ) have already hit the streets of NYC responding to 9-1-1 calls. They likely know they will be exposing themselves to significant risk. 

From what I have read, it's the N95 supply that seems to be the concern.

Anyone can make a DIY surgical style mask at home.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5btJ0_KTU8

On the drill field they can maintain some distance from each other. Not so easy when they are marched back inside the academy. 

Are those 178 EMT's "stupid" for wearing surgical style masks? Not in my opinion.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> OK. Regarding the FDNY probationary EMTs. Not my Department, but I was once a probie myself.
> 
> Are those 178 EMT's "stupid" for wearing surgical style masks? Not in my opinion.



You just hit the nail on the head. No one thinks Joe Private or Joe Probie is stupid for doing what their told. I'd even hazard a guess that 99% of them would rather skip the photo and get right to work. We all know who the photo op was for, and it wasn't the public or the new graduates.


----------



## FJAG

https://www.facebook.com/MinarchyMemes/photos/a.1673537152941848/2236877673274457/?type=3&theater


----------



## blacktriangle

Yikes, I just watched Gattaca and The Matrix trilogy again a week or so ago.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I'd even hazard a guess that 99% of them would rather skip the photo and get right to work.



From what a typical NYC EMS grad parade and ceremony looks like, this one was pretty modest.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And it didn't take long for things to change.  This is what a typical grad looked like in February.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/fdnyhome/albums/72157713083402306





			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I see nothing wrong with the use of the masks by these immediate reinforcements to the front line.



I'm with Blackadder1916. It wasn't "stupid", in my opinion.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Parades and large gatherings when there is a pandemic is stupid, in my opinion.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Parades and large gatherings when there is a pandemic is stupid, in my opinion.



Unlike other schools, FDNY does not have the luxury of shutting down their EMS academy. They hit the streets right after that photo was taken. 

See how much social distancing they get then.

That drill field* , with what looks to be very wide spacing ( outdoors and approximately 2 metres), is likely the most "social distancing" those 178 have experienced since they started at the academy.

They won't be getting that where they are being sent.

* I visited Fort Totten years ago. It's a park on Long Island Sound . Lots of fresh ocean air.   

Speaking of Fort Totten, 

Bodies of NYC coronavirus victims may be stored in Fort Totten as city's morgues approach capacity
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8213173/Bodies-coronavirus-victims-stored-Fort-Totten-citys-morgues-approach-capacity-dead.html


----------



## dapaterson

On modelling - from 538, with illustrations by SMBC.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-comic-strip-tour-of-the-wild-world-of-pandemic-modeling/


----------



## stellarpanther

Something that was pointed out to me this weekend and I noticed it today is that governments, Federal and Provincial are still saying things are recommended instead saying it shall happen.  One example, health workers should only work in one nursing home.


----------



## dapaterson

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Something that was pointed out to me this weekend and I noticed it today is that governments, Federal and Provincial are still saying things are recommended instead saying it shall happen.  One example, health workers should only work in one nursing home.



It is not an uncommon technique to give direction couched as an option - and then, if not the preferred option is not selected, bring out the hammer.

It can also buy time to further research the underlying issues - why are they working in multiple locations?  What if we ceased it; what would the impacts be and how can we mitigate them?

Complex systems that have evolved over time are already experiencing a massive shock; inserting sudden, harsh, additional inputs into those strained systems could cause overload or collapse.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Again: it only works if people buy in.  Too restrictive, and a cascade of disobedience starts; once it becomes clear the "authorities" are essentially powerless to stop it, it really gets rolling.  Note that in many areas effective measures were being taken by people a few days to weeks before "authorities" started offering guidance.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Again: it only works if people buy in.  Too restrictive, and a cascade of disobedience starts; once it becomes clear the "authorities" are essentially powerless to stop it, it really gets rolling.  Note that in many areas effective measures were being taken by people a few days to weeks before "authorities" started offering guidance.



Depends on part on whether authorities are actually ‘powerless’ or merely ‘reluctant’. The latter can change fast. The former, under provincial emergency laws, can also change pretty quickly with the issuance of new emergency orders. I won’t be surprised if BC clamps down a bit farther after some idiots went on an ‘end the lockdown’ walkabout in Vancouver earlier.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Powerless" means: not enough police, courts, or detention space.  Once people get wind of that, game is over.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "Powerless" means: not enough police, courts, or detention space.  Once people get wind of that, game is over.



I genuinely think not enough people are idiots for this to become a problem. Most are doing their best, with a ‘we’re in this together’ attitude. Of those who aren’t, most are simply dumb or indifferent, and stiff fines via provincial offense tickets will work to deter a lot of them. They can fight the tickets, but there’s no rush to take those to trial. Those who would actually be deliberately defiant of public health measures are, I think, pretty limited in numbers. And yes, they should get the book thrown at them.

Preventing repetition through putting people in enforced quarantine or in jail awaiting trial will very rarely be needed. The public healthcare system needs ‘good enough’ observance of ordered measures, not perfect. COVID is not Ebola, and it’s not some get-bitten-just-once zombie virus. As long as most unnecessary public interactions are suppressed, that will suffice.


----------



## mariomike

Chicago,



> Cop: "Let my sergeant know I have five DOAs...four of which will be 'respiratory incidents.'"
> https://twitter.com/CWBChicago/status/1249806359232684039


----------



## Brad Sallows

>As long as most unnecessary public interactions are suppressed, that will suffice.

I agree.  My point is that with time, the threshold of public tolerance for restrictions will drop.  The long weekend has demonstrated that people are not going to remain indoors at home forever - I am sure that many of the weekend's travelers think of themselves belonging to the "in it together" set.  And, as demonstrated in Michigan, over-enthusiastic measures may reduce the threshold more quickly.

The lighter and fewer the restrictions imposed, the longer the restrictions can be maintained.  But "longer" I doubt will be any time past June, unless there is physical evidence of high risk to the general population.  (Model projections won't cut it.)  In short: if real-world evidence shows risk, people will self-restrict regardless what the authorities say; if evidence shows low risk, people will not long tolerate unreasonable restrictions - and they will decide for themselves what is "reasonable".


----------



## suffolkowner

Yep a few of these every day and you'll have more and more people doing their own thing

https://globalnews.ca/news/6810568/coronavirus-oakville-ontario-rollarblading-fine/


----------



## brihard

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Yep a few of these every day and you'll have more and more people doing their own thing
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6810568/coronavirus-oakville-ontario-rollarblading-fine/



I disagree, but in any case let me know how that works out for you.


----------



## suffolkowner

Brihard said:
			
		

> I disagree, but in any case let me know how that works out for you.



how what works out?


----------



## Quirky

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Yep a few of these every day and you'll have more and more people doing their own thing
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6810568/coronavirus-oakville-ontario-rollarblading-fine/



Including our PM, who went to the cottage for the long weekend. Hypocrisy at its best.

https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-breaks-his-own-rules-about-non-essential-travel


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has come under fire after his wife, Sophie Gregoire Trudeau, posted photos of the family at their chalet in Lake Harrington, Quebec. The angry response to the Prime Minister comes because he is not practicing what he has preached in regards to forbidding Canadians from all ''non-essential travel."



Source is whatever you want to believe but Sophie's IG checks out.  :facepalm:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Including our PM, who went to the cottage for the long weekend. Hypocrisy at its best.
> 
> https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-breaks-his-own-rules-about-non-essential-travel
> Source is whatever you want to believe but Sophie's IG checks out.  :facepalm:



 :rofl:



> Perhaps if you are going to break your own rules, don't post evidence of it on social media.




People will forget about this when the next round of money comes out.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> Including our PM, who went to the cottage for the long weekend. Hypocrisy at its best.
> 
> https://thepostmillennial.com/trudeau-breaks-his-own-rules-about-non-essential-travel
> Source is whatever you want to believe but Sophie's IG checks out.  :facepalm:



Meh. I see this one as a big nothingburger, personally. After she was medically cleared she and the kids went to Harrington. 'Chalet' is a bit much. It's a house, quite an old and modest one actually, that few of us would likely find remarkable. In any case, he had to do 14 days of isolation after she was cleared in case he had caught it. He finished isolation, and returned to be with his family. If anything, consolidating the Prime Ministerial family in one place probably carries less of a logistical and security burden, requiring fewer people to work and to face exposure. Moving them there doesn't put anyone else working or in contact with anyone who wouldn't be anyway, so I'm not seeing a problem with the actual actions, they make pragmatic sense to me.

Obviously the optics suck, I won't argue that. But I try to look beyond mere optics on things.


----------



## ModlrMike

I suppose everyone is left to define "non-essential travel" for themselves. Then there's that pesky fourth principle of leadership.


----------



## Remius

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I suppose everyone is left to define "non-essential travel" for themselves. Then there's that pesky fourth principle of leadership.



Seems to be something other party leaders have in common...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/challenger-flight-may-scheer-qualtrough-1.5530542


----------



## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> 'Chalet' is a bit much. It's a house, quite an old and modest one actually



Oh wow, so kind of like a cottage?


----------



## brihard

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Oh wow, so kind of like a cottage?



Yeah, absolutely. The second family residence his wife and kids were living at due to the requirements for separate isolation in accordance with the health guidance.

I'm not going to begrudge anyone going back to their spouse and kids after clearing isolation when they are able to do so without any risk to others.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Brihard]

I'm not going to begrudge anyone going back to their spouse and kids after clearing isolation when they are able to do so without any risk to others.
[/quote]

Question is will he be staying there or traveling back to Ottawa.


----------



## mariomike

A message of hope from New York,



> We have been at war against an invisible and very dangerous enemy for some time now. Many FDNY members have become ill; some have recovered and now fight on.
> 
> Sadly, members of our FDNY family have succumbed to this terrible disease. We mourn their loss and grieve with their families.
> 
> In the past few days some key indicators have given us hope that we may be at the peak of this crisis and that the situation could slowly improve. This is very preliminary and should not cause us to lose our focus or vigilance, but it is difficult not to look for some brightness in such dark times.
> 
> There is reason to remember Winston Churchill’s words to his nation in 1942 when they experienced their first victory after years of defeats. “Now is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”
> 
> You have fearlessly responded to every one of a record number of medical calls, bringing hope to an anxious city. This battle is far from won, but we will fight on as the members of our Department always have.
> 
> I was born into the FDNY and it has been a part of my life for more than 70 years. I could not have imagined what we now find ourselves up against, but I have always had faith that, whatever the challenge, we would meet it head on - and you have done just that. I am immensely proud of you. You are truly the Bravest and the Best.
> 
> Daniel A. Nigro, FDNY Commissioner


----------



## mariomike

What should hospitals do during a pandemic? Furlough their staff of course. 

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/49-hospitals-furloughing-workers-in-response-to-covid-19.html


----------



## Weinie

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Is she just Patty in the Chicoms' hands?
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



In response to your question, I respectfully demur and bid you "hadju"


----------



## Jarnhamar

Israel turns drive through restaurants into drive through testing locations.

Guess what the US does.

https://www.guns.com/news/2020/04/13/atf-greenlights-drive-up-curbside-gun-shop-services


----------



## lenaitch

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Yep a few of these every day and you'll have more and more people doing their own thing
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6810568/coronavirus-oakville-ontario-rollarblading-fine/



In the calm of the aftermath, knowing how lower courts work, when this hits court I suspect he will get off, as will many others.  Whether an untaped parking lot of a facility prohibited by an order ("all facilities providing indoor recreation activities") is inherently included in the order is an argument I would make if I had to.  On the other hand, the adage 'ignorance of the law' really rings true here.  He would have a hard time convincing a justice that he was not aware that municipal properties were closed by order.

I am also hearing on another forum that folks are getting stopped and warned by the police in the GTA that they are violating emergency orders by simply driving.  I realize this is new ground for everybody, including the police, but if this is true, their briefings need to be a lot better.  In Ontario, there is no general emergency order restricting travel.  This type of action may well promote contempt for all orders as being unnecessary overreach.


----------



## mariomike

Only good thing to be said for this disease is it doesn't have the 17% kill ratio SARS had in Canada.


----------



## brihard

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I am also hearing on another forum that folks are getting stopped and warned by the police in the GTA that they are violating emergency orders by simply driving.  I realize this is new ground for everybody, including the police, but if this is true, their briefings need to be a lot better.  In Ontario, there is no general emergency order restricting travel.  This type of action may well promote contempt for all orders as being unnecessary overreach.



That is indeed concerning; there’s no legal basis for that. Where are you reading this?


----------



## lenaitch

Brihard said:
			
		

> That is indeed concerning; there’s no legal basis for that. Where are you reading this?



It was mentioned on another forum.  It is admittedly anecdotal accounts of posters and friends of poster, so the accuracy is obviously not confirmed but it was more than one person.  Accounts mentioned Toronto and York Regional.  I have not experienced it but am pretty much homebound and fairly rural  When the weather gets to the point that I can get my motorcycle out, I think I'll strap a pack of TP to the back just in case.


----------



## Ralph

https://globalnews.ca/news/6761184/police-pulling-over-cars-coronavirus/

A little due diligence cleared that up real quick.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Ahead of the curve: South Korea's evolving strategy to prevent a coronavirus resurgence*
> 
> A smartphone tracking app for new airport arrivals. A “smart city” database of thousands of people infected by the new coronavirus and their contacts. Electronic bracelets that track people breaking quarantine laws.
> 
> South Korea, among the first countries to bring a major coronavirus outbreak under control, is now taking steps to control the disease well into the future, relying heavily on technology and its hyper-connected society.
> 
> The aim is to reinvigorate Asia’s fourth-largest economy and keep it humming by building on the country’s success identifying and tracking cases without imposing major mandatory lockdowns or requiring businesses to keep employees working from home, officials say.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southkorea-respons/ahead-of-the-curve-south-koreas-evolving-strategy-to-prevent-a-coronavirus-resurgence-idUSKCN21X0MO


----------



## Journeyman

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> “By politicizing all aspects of life including people’s health, continued autocratic one-party rule in the People’s Republic of China has endangered everyone,” they write, suggesting that the intentions of the Communist Party of China can no longer be trusted.


Imagine if this were being said about another country's government and leadership.   op:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Canada should move to this model.

Track everyone.

1985 man.


----------



## tomahawk6

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Canada should move to this model.
> 
> Track everyone.
> 
> 1985 man.



Citizens have no rights ?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Canada should move to this model.
> 
> Track everyone.
> 
> 1985 man.



Sure, and that would mean we had caught yet another bad thing from China:

Social Credit System

The social credit initiative calls for the establishments of unified record system for individuals, businesses and the government to be tracked and evaluated for trustworthiness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System


----------



## daftandbarmy

Domestic abuse killings 'more than double' amid Covid-19 lockdown

Pioneering project identifies at least 16 suspected incidences in UK over three-week period

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/15/domestic-abuse-killings-more-than-double-amid-covid-19-lockdown


----------



## dapaterson

Social Credit started in the communist hotbed of Alberta... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_Party_of_Canada


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Domestic abuse killings 'more than double' amid Covid-19 lockdown



I bet when this thing ends, a lot of people will be getting marriage licences.

And, about ten times that number will be getting divorce lawyers.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Social Credit started in the communist hotbed of Alberta... 

Different thing, same name only.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Social Credit started in the communist hotbed of Alberta...
> 
> Different thing, same name only.



Oh yeah, 100% opposite things.... :nod:


----------



## Brad Sallows

On restarting the economy (US, in this case), Tyler Cowen at Marginal Revolution proposes a guideline:

"Any model of optimal policy should be 'what should we do now, knowing the lockdown can't last very long?' rather than 'what is the optimal length of lockdown?'"


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Sure, and that would mean we had caught yet another bad thing from China:



Our Prime Minister said at a basic level he admires China's dictatorship and ability to turn their economy around. Think of Social _Credit_ as a a tool for us to achieve what admired China can do  ;D




> evaluated for trustworthiness


I wonder what a CD and bar are worth for social credit.


----------



## Remius

https://7news.com.au/news/world/coronavirus-new-zealand-pm-jacinda-ardern-takes-20-per-cent-pay-cut-c-977489?fbclid=IwAR2glhJmhiZGaTBEHWTqug5Go46xzOm2YNdEVqDf04ALTXGj37uC4C8MUFw


Good for her.


----------



## lenaitch

Ralph said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/6761184/police-pulling-over-cars-coronavirus/
> 
> A little due diligence cleared that up real quick.



Perhaps it is nothing more that social media urban myth, which is a good thing.  I'm not surprised with the statements of the departmental spokespersons - what else could they say.  But I've worked with an known a few members who I could so see doing this.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Question is will he be staying there or traveling back to Ottawa.


I obviously don't know his travel plans but he is the PM after all and I think it's fair to say his work schedule/requirements are quite different than the average Canadian.  If he goes back and forth, I don't have an issue with it. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the uniqueness of the Ottawa/Gatineau area was something that was pointed out by both the Ontario and Quebec governments because a lot of people work live on either side of the border.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *New York to require masks in public when social distancing is not possible*
> 
> Governor Andrew Cuomo on Wednesday said he will sign an executive order requiring all New Yorkers to wear masks or face coverings in public when they are not maintaining social distancing. The order, which goes into effect Friday, will not be enforced with a civil penalty but may in the future.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-masks-face-coverings-in-public-executive-order-governor-andrew-cuomo/


----------



## mariomike

Saw a "photo op" of a guy wearing a mask made out of a Crown Royal bag.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I obviously don't know his travel plans but he is the PM after all and I think it's fair to say his work schedule/requirements are quite different than the average Canadian.  If he goes back and forth, I don't have an issue with it. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the uniqueness of the Ottawa/Gatineau area was something that was pointed out by both the Ontario and Quebec governments because a lot of people work live on either side of the border.



Fair enough. Does that free pass extent to MPs too, or just the PM?


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Fair enough. Does that free pass extent to MPs too, or just the PM?


All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.  ;D


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does that free pass extent to MPs too, or just the PM?



For CDN/US Covid-related political discussion,

see also,

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion  

https://navy.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1605639/topicseen.html#new
10 pages.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Michelle Rempel
_The Liberals are discussing a law that would limit (criminalize?) what could be said about COVID. Chilling. Who determines the truth? The WHO?_

https://youtu.be/tdlLxLi08FU


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Michelle Rempel
> _The Liberals are discussing a law that would limit (criminalize?) what could be said about COVID. Chilling. Who determines the truth? The WHO?_
> 
> https://youtu.be/tdlLxLi08FU



Instead of trying to stimulate discussion of what Ms. Rempel is saying about a story she read that related what a cabinet minister said about his reaction to proposals made by a British Conservative MP that would be similar to existing legislation in Germany and France, why not direct members to the CBC story, then it would be only second-hand instead of third-hand (or is it fourth-hand?).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-misinformation-disinformation-law-1.5532325


----------



## Remius

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Instead of trying to stimulate discussion of what Ms. Rempel is saying about a story she read that related what a cabinet minister said about his reaction to proposals made by a British Conservative MP that would be similar to existing legislation in Germany and France, why not direct members to the CBC story, then it would be only second-hand instead of third-hand (or is it fourth-hand?).
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-misinformation-disinformation-law-1.5532325



I wish we laws like that for anti vax online movements. Same as going after snake oil sales people.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Instead of trying to stimulate discussion of what Ms. Rempel is saying about a story she read that related what a cabinet minister said about his reaction to proposals made by a British Conservative MP that would be similar to existing legislation in Germany and France, why not direct members to the CBC story, then it would be only second-hand instead of third-hand (or is it fourth-hand?).
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-misinformation-disinformation-law-1.5532325



1. I really like her.

2. I find these threads can be article copypasta heavy. It's nice to hear videos now and then.

3. I think she asks good questions and doesn't beat around the bush. Very down to earth. I like her videos.

4. In her video she talks not just about the misinformation stuff but also our government and the WHO. Her video covers a few topics which I find interesting. The article you posted is good too


----------



## mariomike

More grim stats.

FDNY EMTs and paramedics responded to 205 cardiac calls yesterday, about 3 times the average of 69 cardiac calls a day citywide, looking at year over year data. 

Of the 205 cardiac calls, there were 141 deaths (about 7x normal) or almost 70%.

As these were DOAs, not clear if they are counted as coronavirus.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Here's another video - Michigan. Getting pretty crazy down there.

https://youtu.be/SC62S0-N3pI


----------



## Weinie

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Here's another video - Michigan. Getting pretty crazy down there.
> 
> https://youtu.be/SC62S0-N3pI



No surprise here......most North Americans have been past the Maslow "self actualization" needs since 1980. Altruism is dead.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is nothing more that social media urban myth, which is a good thing.  I'm not surprised with the statements of the departmental spokespersons - what else could they say.  But I've worked with an known a few members who I could so see doing this.



Or Russian troll factory??


----------



## Czech_pivo

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Here's another video - Michigan. Getting pretty crazy down there.
> 
> https://youtu.be/SC62S0-N3pI



From the state that give them Terry Nichols.....


----------



## Kat Stevens

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> From the state that give them Terry Nichols.....



And Ted Nugent.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Michagin has the 4th most confirmed cases, Massachusetts is 3rd. They both have about the same number of confirmed cases but Michagin has 1000 more deaths (1921 total) and only 433 recovered where Massachusetts has 4,316 recovered.

Not too sure what Michagin is hoping to accomplish, they don't seem in a good spot.


----------



## dapaterson

Michiganders apparently want lawn fertilizer, grass seed, and hair appointments.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1250491829155500032


----------



## Brad Sallows

Aka a reasonable degree of freedom.

So we see what squeezing unnecessarily hard accomplishes.  Well played, authoritarians.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Michiganders apparently want lawn fertilizer, grass seed, and hair appointments.
> 
> https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1250491829155500032



Nothing funny about a pandemic. But, some of the comments were.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Commercial pilots laid off amid COVID-19 could get new jobs with Canadian military*
> 
> The Royal Canadian Air Force is hoping to address a critical shortage of experienced pilots by scooping up some of the hundreds of commercial pilots whose jobs have been negatively affected by the COVID-19 crisis.
> 
> Even before COVID-19, the Air Force had been reaching out to former military pilots who had left for commercial gigs in recent years in the hopes of enticing them back into uniform as it faced a shortage of more than 200 experienced aviators.
> 
> Now, at a time when the commercial airline industry is facing uncertainty and disarray, the Air Force hopes that by highlighting the stability that comes with a career in the military, more former military pilots will decide to re-enrol.
> 
> The decision by airlines to hire staff doesn’t help that effort, but Air Force spokesman Lt.-Col. Steve Neta said early indications have been encouraging as 26 former pilots have reached out in recent weeks to see about re-enrolling. Several have started formal applications.
> 
> The federal auditor general first reported in late 2018 that the military didn’t have enough pilots and mechanics to fly and maintain Canada’s CF-18 fighter jets. The Air Force at the time was short 275 pilots and needed more mechanics, sensor operators and other trained personnel.
> 
> The military has also been working on a contract for a new training program that will let the Air Force increase the number of new pilots trained in a given year when necessary. The current program allows only a fixed number.
> 
> It will be several months before the Air Force will see actual re-enrolments from the latest efforts, said Neta, as those interested must go through a screening process to ensure they still meet the required standards to serve.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6823775/coronavirus-canada-military-pilots/


----------



## MilEME09

West jet just laid off 1700 pilots so it could work, same with technicians. If you do it now,and politics doesnt screw us over they would be finishing training just as new fighters come. Heck hire more then we need and order extra aircraft.


----------



## Weinie

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> West jet just laid off 1700 pilots so it could work, same with technicians. If you do it now,and politics doesnt screw us over they would be finishing training just as new fighters come. _*Heck hire more then we need and order extra aircraft.*_



Stop. You're killing me. Oh my ribs. :rofl:


----------



## Jarnhamar

*Sources believe coronavirus outbreak originated in Wuhan lab as part of China's efforts to compete with US*
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-china-compete-us-sources
*
US explores possibility that coronavirus started in Chinese lab, not a market*
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/politics/us-intelligence-virus-started-chinese-lab/index.html

Wonder what else is going on at the Wuhan Institute of Virology





This is a pretty interesting read too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa


> _*HeLa* is an immortal cell line used in scientific research. It is the oldest and most commonly used human cell line. The line was derived from cervical cancer cells taken on February 8, 1951 from Henrietta Lacks, a patient who died of cancer on October 4, 1951. The cell line was found to be remarkably durable and prolific, which gives rise to its extensive use in scientific research.
> 
> The cells from Lacks's cancerous cervical tumor were taken without her knowledge or consent, which was common practice at the time. Cell biologist George Otto Gey found that they could be kept alive, and developed a cell line. Previously, cells cultured from other human cells would only survive for a few days. Scientists would spend more time trying to keep the cells alive than performing actual research on them. Cells from Lacks' tumor behaved differently. As was custom for Gey's lab assistant, she labeled the culture 'HeLa', the first two letters of the patient's first and last name; this became the name of the cell line. _


----------



## dapaterson

Really, for this article all you need is the title.

Maryland police issue 'final warning' for residents to wear pants to check mailbox
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/nation-world/maryland-police-issue-warning-to-wear-pants-when-checking-mail/507-ec4d10ac-2c5f-44c5-9ee6-7004df7245a7


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Sigh
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/three-correctional-officers-in-brampton-test-positive-for-covid-19-1.4898332


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Maryland police issue 'final warning' for residents to wear pants to check mailbox



Shows how easily entertained I am, I like seeing the backgrounds behind the "talking heads", now that they are working from home.

Saw a guy in a jacket and tie. As presentable as if he was back in the studio. He must have thought the camera was off, because when he got up, he was in his shorts!  

Also interesting the see all the ASL people in action.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Sigh
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/three-correctional-officers-in-brampton-test-positive-for-covid-19-1.4898332


At least we're getting the rapid result tests out there and enough reagent to test everyone in the facility to isolate them. I can't imagine what an outbreak in a correctional facility in those close quarters would do.


----------



## mariomike

The 1,000 bed Navy hospital ship USNS Comfort has been docked at Pier 90 on Manhattan's West Side for more than two weeks. How many people did they treat? 130 patients.

https://wcbs880.radio.com/articles/news/usns-comfort-has-treated-130-patients-since-arriving-in-nyc


----------



## Journeyman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Shows how easily entertained I am, I like seeing the backgrounds behind the "talking heads", now that they are working from home.


And their décor is being judged.  Room Rater @ratemyskyperoom

Global News' Mercedes Stephenson got high marks.  ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows

>How many people did they treat? 130 patients.

That's good news.  It means that not only the initial purpose of the ship - to receive non-COVID patients - was under-subscribed, but also that when it began receiving COVID patients as well, it remained under-subscribed.  It means the hospitals in a hard-hit city are coping.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >How many people did they treat? 130 patients.
> 
> That's good news.  It means that not only the initial purpose of the ship - to receive non-COVID patients - was under-subscribed, but also that when it began receiving COVID patients as well, it remained under-subscribed.  It means the hospitals in a hard-hit city are coping.



Or....

We Can’t Rely on Just the Military

It might seem like the Pentagon can act as some sort of savior in confronting the coronavirus, but that’s unlikely.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/us-military-failing-spending-budget/609673/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Sigh
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/three-correctional-officers-in-brampton-test-positive-for-covid-19-1.4898332



https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/16/mission-inmate-dies-from-apparent-covid-19-complications/

MISSION (NEWS 1130) — An inmate from a troubled federal prison in Mission has died at Abbotsford Regional Hospital as an apparent result of complications related to COVID-19, according to the Correctional Service Canada.

The B.C. coroners service will review the circumstances of the death, which occurred Wednesday.

If confirmed, it would be the first death related to COVID-19 among federally sentenced inmates.

The Mission Institute inmate’s next of kin have been notified of the death.

“The thoughts of management and staff are with them at this time,” says a release from Correctional Service Canada.

As of Thursday, 54 inmates at Mission Institution had tested positive for the novel coronavirus — up from 48 the day before — along with six correctional officers who work there.

Seven of the inmates were in hospital, while several others were waiting for COVID-19 test results.

The Mission Institution has been under lockdown since the outbreak was discovered almost two weeks ago.

The 54 total inmate cases of coronavirus at Mission Institution is the highest total among any federal prison in Canada.


----------



## mariomike

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >How many people did they treat? 130 patients.
> 
> That's good news.  It means that not only the initial purpose of the ship - to receive non-COVID patients - was under-subscribed, but also that when it began receiving COVID patients as well, it remained under-subscribed.  It means the hospitals in a hard-hit city are coping.



Looks like they are expecting a lot of business,



> Coronavirus field hospitals across the US
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-field-hospitals-photos.html
> 
> Field hospitals are being set up across the United States to deal with a health care system that appears to be already bursting at the seams due to the surge of patients infected with the novel coronavirus. Event centers like the Javits Center in New York City and CenturyLink in Seattle are being converted into hospitals; Field tents are being set up in Central Park in New York City; and a fairground in Miami-Dade county  is being turned into a makeshift hospital.





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> And their décor is being judged.  Room Rater @ratemyskyperoom
> 
> Global News' Mercedes Stephenson got high marks.  ;D



One of my favorites was a peek into Speaker Pelosi's ice cream stash.

Attached,

Peel ( ON ) paramedics training with some hi-tech PPE.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/04/16/mission-inmate-dies-from-apparent-covid-19-complications/
> 
> MISSION (NEWS 1130) — An inmate from a troubled federal prison in Mission has died at Abbotsford Regional Hospital as an apparent result of complications related to COVID-19, according to the Correctional Service Canada.
> 
> The B.C. coroners service will review the circumstances of the death, which occurred Wednesday.
> 
> If confirmed, it would be the first death related to COVID-19 among federally sentenced inmates.
> 
> The Mission Institute inmate’s next of kin have been notified of the death.
> 
> “The thoughts of management and staff are with them at this time,” says a release from Correctional Service Canada.
> 
> As of Thursday, 54 inmates at Mission Institution had tested positive for the novel coronavirus — up from 48 the day before — along with six correctional officers who work there.
> 
> Seven of the inmates were in hospital, while several others were waiting for COVID-19 test results.
> 
> The Mission Institution has been under lockdown since the outbreak was discovered almost two weeks ago.
> 
> The 54 total inmate cases of coronavirus at Mission Institution is the highest total among any federal prison in Canada.



Talking this morning with a co-worker who is a former CSC officer and he was saying that not only is Mission on lockdown, but no one is allowed out, and no one is allowed in.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Looks like they are expecting a lot of business"

15 days ago, that was the case.  Currently, I'm seeing more articles commenting on underused capacity.


----------



## mariomike

Looks like a lack of demand. That's good news.


----------



## MilEME09

The economic damage China is receiving is a pleasant thing for me to see, 80% of Us manufacturers and 67% of European ones are pulling out of China.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2019/07/16/europe-joins-us-companies-moving-out-of-china/


----------



## kkwd

The latest Canadian infection and death stats. It was going along faily stable and then took an awful spike today. The new infections and deaths the past 24 hours were 1,711 and 183 respectively. Yesterday it was 1318 and 107. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2f1a13ca0b29422f9b34660f0b705043/


----------



## brihard

kkwd said:
			
		

> The latest Canadian infection and death stats. It was going along faily stable and then took an awful spike today. The new infections and deaths the past 24 hours were 1,711 and 183 respectively. Yesterday it was 1318 and 107.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1
> https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2f1a13ca0b29422f9b34660f0b705043/



Quebec loosened its criteria for determining a COVID death, I believe.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I've heard and read the numbers could be misleading (as in worse than reported). Some places say it's 60%-70% accuracy. Some hospitals have patients that have Covid positive looking x-rays and a bunch of Covid symptoms but the tests come back negative. Incorrect negative results can be due to the method it's being collected, collection error, the Covid stuff drops down into the lungs and isn't present in the nose and throat area anymore. I've heard the PCR test for Covid is finicky too.


----------



## brihard

Very possibly; well beyond my knowledge or expertise. Maybe Medicineman will drop in and hit us with some knowledge bombs on this?


----------



## dapaterson

kkwd said:
			
		

> The latest Canadian infection and death stats. It was going along faily stable and then took an awful spike today. The new infections and deaths the past 24 hours were 1,711 and 183 respectively. Yesterday it was 1318 and 107.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection.html#a1
> https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/2f1a13ca0b29422f9b34660f0b705043/



There's also backlogs and delays in reporting after any weekend, which is increased by it being a long weekend.


----------



## mariomike

I suspect there is an unknown amount of "collateral damage". 

I am reading of cases where a family member is showing symptoms. They call 9-1-1. Paramedics arrive. They talk the patient into not going. 

Patient later goes into cardiac arrest. Paramedics return a second time. But, it's too late.

No autopsy. No COVID-19 test. 

So, no one will ever know.


----------



## kkwd

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There's also backlogs and delays in reporting after any weekend, which is increased by it being a long weekend.



They update these charts twice a day every day. It may be provincial lag in reporting the Ottawa.


----------



## dapaterson

kkwd said:
			
		

> They update these charts twice a day every day. It may be provincial lag in reporting the Ottawa.



Labs report to provinces more slowly on weekends.  Cities verify tests (sometimes there are duplicates, and you have to cross reference) and that is slowed on weekends.  Fewer people present for testing on weekends.


----------



## kkwd

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Labs report to provinces more slowly on weekends.  Cities verify tests (sometimes there are duplicates, and you have to cross reference) and that is slowed on weekends.  Fewer people present for testing on weekends.



The report for Good Friday is 60, Saturday is 84, Easter Sunday is 64, Easter Monday is 63, Tuesday is 123, Wednesday is 107. Thursday is 183. From the pattern here I can see you are correct in the "Off hours" reporting.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"The latest ... stats. It was going along faily stable and then ..."

As noted by above posters, the general rule is: look for variations in methodology.  Inconsistent methods will yield irregular results.


----------



## brihard

I've had not much else to do but watch this for the past month and a half. I've almost always noticed a bit of a dip on weekends, particularly on Sundays. I expect the entirety of the long weekend was somewhat subject to same.

Speaking of Easter, watch for another uptick in about a week.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brihard said:
			
		

> Speaking of Easter, watch for another uptick in about a week.


Yup, I worked a 3-11 on Good Friday and the 401 had waaaaaay too much traffic on it.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Speaking of Easter, watch for another uptick in about a week.



I felt bad for my mom's sake. 

Thankfully, on my wife's side, Passover ended last night.

From what I read today, in New York at least, the call volume is getting lower. People do not want to go to hospital, if they can possibly avoid it.

But, the increase DOA's is staggering.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *China's virus death toll revised up sharply after review*
> 
> China's official death toll from the coronavirus pandemic jumped sharply Friday as the hardest-hit city of Wuhan announced a major revision that added nearly 1,300 fatalities.
> 
> The new figures resulted from an in-depth review of deaths during a response that was chaotic in the early days. They raised the official toll in Wuhan by 50 per cent to 3,869 deaths. While China has yet to update its national totals, the revised numbers push up China's total to 4,632 deaths from a previously reported 3,342.
> 
> The higher numbers are not a surprise -- it is virtually impossible to get an accurate count when health systems are overwhelmed at the height of a crisis -- and they confirm suspicions that many more people died than the official figures had showed.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/china-s-virus-death-toll-revised-up-sharply-after-review-1.4900233
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6831122/coronavirus-wuhan-death-toll-up/
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/wuhan-health-officials-raise-death-toll-linked-to-covid-19-by-50-1.5535543
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-5000-us-deaths-reported-covid-19/story?id=70200836


----------



## Blackadder1916

125 military members to help in Quebec’s long-term care homes
https://globalnews.ca/news/6832454/coronavirus-ottawa-sending-military-quebec-long-term-care/


> BY BEATRICE BRITNEFF GLOBAL NEWS  Posted April 17, 2020 11:46 am  Updated April 17, 2020 11:48 am
> 
> The federal government is deploying about 125 members of the Canadian Armed Forces with healthcare training to support workers in Quebec’s long-term care facilities reeling from COVID-19-related outbreaks, deaths and staff shortages, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced on Friday.
> 
> The confirmation comes one day after Trudeau and Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland confirmed that the province of Quebec had formally requested that the federal government and the military send in help to its nursing homes hard-hit by the spread of the novel coronavirus.
> 
> It was an ask the prime minister described as “unprecedented.”
> 
> “We continue to work with the government of Quebec to find other ways of supporting them, including with the [Canadian] Red Cross and specialized volunteers that are registered with Health Canada,” Trudeau said during his daily news briefing about Canada’s response to the novel coronavirus pandemic, as he announced the military help for Quebec.
> 
> Quebec Premier François Legault has also put out a wide call within the province for reinforcement, appealing to family physicians and other medical specialists to step in.



It will be interesting to see the details of this deployment.  Regular or Reserve or a combination?  Solely Quebec based units (language requirement)?  Which LTC homes or locations?  With over 140 facilities "officially" identified as having residents who tested positive being a only a minority of the total of number of homes in the province, they may be stretched thin.


----------



## mariomike

> Wuhan health officials raise death toll linked to COVID-19 by 50%
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/wuhan-health-officials-raise-death-toll-linked-to-covid-19-by-50-1.5535543
> 
> Deaths occurring outside hospitals had not been registered previously


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Blackadder1916] 
Solely Quebec based units (language requirement)?

[/quote]

That wouldn't be fair. We're a bilingual military and we send units from Quebec to deployments in predominant English areas so this should be a CAF wide task.


----------



## mariomike

> The federal government is deploying about 125 members of the Canadian Armed Forces with healthcare training to support workers in Quebec’s long-term care facilities reeling from COVID-19-related outbreaks, deaths and staff shortages, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced on Friday.





			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see the details of this deployment.



Yes. To support PSWs? Or, as PSW's themselves?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Either way its a waste....offer real PSW's the equivalent money and protection, and they'd be lining up to go back in.   We treated them like flotscum for years with poor pay, poor workplace, but now we want them to display some kind of unearned loyalty???


----------



## Quirky

These facilities already charge horrendous amounts of money for care, but now they require help from the CF for a service they are being paid for.  :not-again: After all said and done, the owners of these companies need to be held criminally accountable for all the dead people on their hands. Disgusting.


----------



## Remius

We need a rethink on how we treat seniors and those we entrust to care for them.  We need to move away from the current storage and forget model.  These problems are not new.  But have become front and center because of the pandemic on a larger scale.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Either way its a waste....offer real PSW's the equivalent money and protection, and they'd be lining up to go back in.   We treated them like flotscum for years with poor pay, poor workplace, but now we want them to display some kind of unearned loyalty???



To be a PSW in Ontario its a 1 year college program, they are not trained like RNs taking 4 year degrees. How much more should they make? How much more are people willing/able to pay for long-term care? Its already over $1800 a month for long term care in Ontario, with CPP maxing out at $1200 per month. How many families can afford $1000 a month to care for an elderly parent when they're barely making ends meet themselves?

Yeah, probably should get a little more than the $20 per hour average (Ontario: https://personalsupportworkerhq.com/psw-salary/), but are they willing to lose that raise to taxes to cover the increased government costs and subsidies? Just for some reference, those PSW numbers are only a few dollars an hour less than what a RN starts at (http://careersinnursing.ca/new-grads-and-job-seekers/find-nursing-job/dollars-and-sense-what-are-nurses-paid)


----------



## Jarnhamar

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Either way its a waste....offer real PSW's the equivalent money and protection, and they'd be lining up to go back in.   We treated them like flotscum for years with poor pay, poor workplace, but now we want them to display some kind of unearned loyalty???



When something like this happens it's interesting to contemplate how important menial workers (no offense) are. Or maybe frontline is a better term. Stories of senior management working at home while the workers bare the brunt of the work. Under these circumstances there's a legitimate wisdom in it, but still interesting none the less. Sports too.

Salary for Montreal Canadian's Carey Price for 1 year or 512 entry level PSW positions for a year.



You also see someones true colours for work ethic.


----------



## Jarnhamar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> To be a PSW in Ontario its a 1 year college program



There's some accelerated type PSW programs out there which somehow qualify people and get them working with a short 1 month long course. Essentially a get off welfare and start working type thing from what I can tell.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its already over $1800 a month for long term care in Ontario, with CPP maxing out at $1200 per month. How many families can afford $1000 a month to care for an elderly parent when they're barely making ends meet themselves?



1800?    My Mother is $4000 a month right now.....savings are going fast.
And I can guarantee you very very few are making $20 an hour.   Private companies are skimming astounding amounts from their PSW's.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> To be a PSW in Ontario its a 1 year college program, they are not trained like RNs taking 4 year degrees. How much more should they make? How much more are people willing/able to pay for long-term care? Its already over $1800 a month for long term care in Ontario, with CPP maxing out at $1200 per month. How many families can afford $1000 a month to care for an elderly parent when they're barely making ends meet themselves?
> 
> Yeah, probably should get a little more than the $20 per hour average (Ontario: https://personalsupportworkerhq.com/psw-salary/), but are they willing to lose that raise to taxes to cover the increased government costs and subsidies? Just for some reference, those PSW numbers are only a few dollars an hour less than what a RN starts at (http://careersinnursing.ca/new-grads-and-job-seekers/find-nursing-job/dollars-and-sense-what-are-nurses-paid)



Part of the problem is working conditions.  I think many PSWs need to work at multiple locations to get full time work as no one facility wants to pay benefits.

Pay is just one part of the issue.  Private care is another where the bottom line is more Important than quality care.


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:
			
		

> Private care is another where the bottom line is more Important than quality care.



Our public health care system is in shambles in some provinces, so moving to a Public model is not necessarily the right solution. Ontario government does not operate any long-term care facilities in Ontario, they're all private. I think there's definitely a way to legislate a little of a solution, especially for the benefit piece where if a care facility has no full time PSWs then they are obviously gaming the system.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That wouldn't be fair. We're a bilingual military and we send units from Quebec to deployments in predominant English areas so this should be a CAF wide task.



I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I'll respond with a serious comment.  If medical troops are being deployed to provide direct patient care then being able to communicate with those patients is vital.  An example of that is the requirement in all jurisdictions of Canada of being able to work in that region's dominant language as a prerequisite to being a licensed health professional (physician, nurse, pharmacist, physio, LPN . . .).  If you're not a native speaker of that language, you have to prove you can work in that language.

The type of nursing care provided to residents/patients of LTC facilities is very fundamental.  The best way to find what is going on with your patient is through casual conversation while performing the basic procedures that are the foundation of nursing care.  Nursing care, even "military nursing care" comes down to a one-on-one personal relationship with the patient, it's not a section filling sandbags.  The CAF may be a bilingual organization, however, unless things have changed drastically, my experience was that the second language skills of the typical Anglophone junior NCM was not a high priority for either the organization or the individual soldier.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I'll respond with a serious comment.



Nosir. I completely agree with you and reasons you're giving. I just think those reasons contravene the reasoning I always hear about being a bilingual military. A francophone from Quebec might get posted to BC so the CO should know French to better lead kind of stuff.

I think this idea that we should be a bilingual military (especially giving bilingual members promotion points) but then suggesting a french unit should go to the french task to be more effective is a double standard. Just like sending a french unit to Africa "because they speak french there" (bucking an English unit out of que if I'm not mistaken) yet sending a French unit to Iraq where the language assistance's, let alone locals, don't speak french off hand.


It's pretty cool that the CAF can jump in and help and basically do everyone else's jobs for them, but also kind of shitty.
Considering the stories of Quebec PSWs abandoning their patients I think the CAF will be doing more than just helping.


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Ontario government does not operate any long-term care facilities in Ontario, they're all private.



The City of Toronto operates long-term care homes,

Cummer Lodge, Bendale Acres, Kipling Acres, Carefree Lodge, True Davidson Acres, Seven Oaks, Fudger House, Castleview Wychwood Towers, Westburn Manor, and Lakeshore Lodge.  

https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/all-homes/

https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/

"All City operated long-term care homes provide 24-hour resident-focused care and service including nursing and personal care, behavioural support programs, medical services, recreational programming, dietetics and food services, laundry, social work, spiritual and religious care, housekeeping, maintenance, trust and administrative services."

These City operated long-term care homes are separate from private and non-profit agencies.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:
			
		

> No. The City of Toronto operates long-term care homes,
> 
> Cummer Lodge, Bendale Acres, Kipling Acres, Carefree Lodge, True Davidson Acres, Seven Oaks, Fudger House, Castleview Wychwood Towers, Westburn Manor, and Lakeshore Lodge.
> 
> https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/all-homes/
> 
> https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/
> 
> "All City operated long-term care homes provide 24-hour resident-focused care and service including nursing and personal care, behavioural support programs, medical services, recreational programming, dietetics and food services, laundry, social work, spiritual and religious care, housekeeping, maintenance, trust and administrative services."
> 
> These City operated long-term care homes are separate from private and non-profit agencies.



Yep. 

Some stats (updated last year)

Ontario's long-term care homes (February 2019)
626 homes are homes licensed and approved to operate in Ontario
58% of homes are privately owned, 24% are non-profit/charitable, 16% are municipal	

Source: https://www.oltca.com/oltca/OLTCA/Public/LongTermCare/FactsFigures.aspx

Before all of this happened private long term care had higher death rates and emergency hospitalisation rates than non profit or public ones.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/experts-blame-staffing-issues-poor-oversight-for-nursing-home-problems-1.3914580

Studies have shown that for-profit, privately run long-term care homes have both higher emergency department transfer rates and lower staffing levels than not-for-profit and publicly owned facilities.

Dr. Peter Tanuseputro of the Ottawa Hospital Research Institute co-authored a 2015 study that also found that for-profit long-term care homes have higher mortality rates not-for-profit facilities.

“For-profit homes, on average, had a… 16 per cent higher death rate and a 30 per cent higher hospitalization rate than not-for-profit homes,” Tanuseputro told CTV News Channel.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:
			
		

> The City of Toronto operates long-term care homes,
> 
> Cummer Lodge, Bendale Acres, Kipling Acres, Carefree Lodge, True Davidson Acres, Seven Oaks, Fudger House, Castleview Wychwood Towers, Westburn Manor, and Lakeshore Lodge.
> 
> https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/all-homes/
> 
> https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/long-term-care-homes/
> 
> "All City operated long-term care homes provide 24-hour resident-focused care and service including nursing and personal care, behavioural support programs, medical services, recreational programming, dietetics and food services, laundry, social work, spiritual and religious care, housekeeping, maintenance, trust and administrative services."
> 
> These City operated long-term care homes are separate from private and non-profit agencies.



According to the Ontario Long Term Care Association, there are 626 licenced longterm care homes in the province; 16% - or about 100 - are municipally owned.  My county has four.  Fifty eight percent are private and 24% are non-profit/charitable.


----------



## mariomike

The front-line is getting desperate for re-enforcements. 

This is Ontario only,



> In order to ensure there are enough paramedics, ambulance services will have the flexibility to hire and assign college students who have not yet completed exams or graduated, to provide services appropriate to their competence level and scope of practice.
> 
> https://twitter.com/CityCristinaH/status/1251133600554274816?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


----------



## Weinie

An "entrepreneur acquaintance" of mine contacted me a number of years ago, with a platinum sure way to make money. He had done some research into what were the sure-fire industries that would expand in the future; geriatric care was the number one leading indicator for growth in Canada. He was looking for some seed money. Although I could not refute his findings. I demurred. 

As opposed to Bruce in an earlier posting, both my parents entered long term care a number of years ago, and were able to cover it under their existing pensions. I couldn't imagine adding $4K a month to my existing budget. Even at $1800, which I am sure is low end, this puts significant financial pressure on occupants, and leads to private industry skimping on care...%u2026.business models rule until shyte happens.

There are three new "long term care" homes being built within 5Km of my neighborhood, pretty sure that the rationale is economic rather than altruistic.


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:
			
		

> There are three new "long care" homes being built within 5Km of my neighborhood, pretty sure that the rationale is economic rather than altruistic.



Supply and demand.

Building for the Baby Boomers.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:
			
		

> The front-line is getting desperate for re-enforcements.
> 
> This is Ontario only,




I wish finding an EMS job in Alberta was in that high of demand.  Even right now, with the current situation, we have hundreds of EMT and PCP grads who have to take positions in crap postings, if there are even any of those, before AHS will even consider hiring them.  A lot of them end up leaving the field before they even get started.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I wish finding an EMS job in Alberta was in that high of demand.  Even right now, with the current situation, we have hundreds of EMT and PCP grads who have to take positions in crap postings, if there are even any of those, before AHS will even consider hiring them.  A lot of them end up leaving the field before they even get started.



Thanks to the residency requirement, I was hired by my home town right after high school graduation. They sent us to college.

I believe the recruiting situation now is similar to what you describe.

SARS, with a 17% kill rate in Canada, was no joke. Although the Working Quarantine pay was appreciated. 

Interesting to see the beaches in Jacksonville, Florida have re-opened. 

Not even a deadly pandemic can get in the way of a photo op ,

https://twitter.com/ABC7NY/status/1251329940395642881

https://twitter.com/FDNY/status/1251289476594380800


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting to see some of the debate moving right along from "front line workers are unsung heroes/lookit what retail has to put up with on pittance wages" to "better make sure someone building ventilators taking care of vulnerable people or building respirators isn't paid tooooooooooo much" pretty quickly ...  

As for comparing RN pay to PSW pay, I know more than a dozen PSW's and, although that's not a significant sample size, _none_ of them (even those who've been in union jobs in non-profits) make anywhere NEAR what an RN makes.

As for building in protections/regulations, I remember when Team Blue (Harris/Eves iteration) was in power in Ontario.  They said they would create more long-term care beds by putting out calls for proposal based on a certain amount per bed per year.  Even the private sector didn't bite, saying they wouldn't make enough money.  You can put in all the rules you want, but if there ain't enough fuel for the truck, nobody's going to want to drive it.

Team Red _talked_ a good talk during their time in the wheelhouse, but waiting lists still increased.

I realize the public purse is NOT bottomless, but let's not forget the "$50 dollar bottle of hand sanitizer" factor when looking at the private-sector for long-term care.  They'll take care of people, but they're there to make mo' money.  

Like someone way smarter than me once said, if you pay peanuts, don't be surprised if you get monkeys.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Business on the brink: Dan Dagg: The people I had to lay off are friends

I’m not one to write letters, so when I find myself doing so, I know that something big is up. And I believe that is the understatement of the decade … if not the century.

It’s funny how it feels like it was all so distant and moving slowly just four weeks ago. I remember getting my first sense that this was going to be bigger than we all thought while attending the Tourism Industry of B.C. conference here in Victoria March 4-6. Some people weren’t shaking hands and we saw presentations showing declining air travel and a general softening of the market.

The following week, we began to see campaigns cancelled or postponed from the tourism destinations and hospitality businesses we work for. For a bit, we tried to work with our clients to pivot and chase the shorter-haul business.

But as our understanding of COVID-19’s impact and devastation spread, it wasn’t long before we realized that, for the greater good, we needed to stop.

We needed to stop coming to work in the office. We needed to encourage our clients to stop trying to do anything that could potentially endanger people and fuel the spread of this horrific virus.

The next week, we saw a 66% decline in our revenue projections and almost every call was from a client needing to cancel work and post COVID-19 updates on their websites.

So now what?

I have 20 employees. I have to close my office to protect everyone, with very little money coming in.

I have to cut costs. I have no choice but to lay off six people, as we in senior management take pay cuts.
It sucks.

And I have to say that laying off a person is the most painful thing you will ever do in business. And it’s worse when it is no fault of theirs or anyone else. Who goes? Those who are financially more secure? The newest? The most expensive?

I laid off six people in one day. Some people I have worked with for more than 20 years. They are friends and family to me. And I can say without shame or embarrassment that I cried that night. It was the worst day in my 30-year career.

So where are we now? My remaining team meets, virtually, every morning and reviews the work. Some staff are busy, some have little or nothing to do. I can sense and see the palpable fear in everyone’s eyes and voice. Fear over job security, financial security, their personal health and safety, and that of their families whom they can’t be with physically.

I don’t sleep much. Here’s what keeps me up:

While the government has moved to provide support to many people with respect to EI, COVID-19 emergency relief and residential rent protection, it is probably too little and too slow for business.

Offering me a tax deferral doesn’t help me, it only delays bills that I won’t be able to afford later. Where and when are we going to find that money?

I am paying rent on 2,500 square feet of office space that is sitting empty. (I feel lucky that I am not a retail location that has zero revenue coming in and extremely high rent.)

Small business needs federal, provincial or municipal rent support. Please create a fund or tax breaks for landlords to provide rent relief, not deferral. We are in enough trouble and the bottom line is that you can’t get blood from a stone. The wage subsidy is nice, but I still have salaries to pay without enough revenue coming in. Moreover, at this point, it is still just a promise. I have to have faith that it will be implemented fairly and fast — which isn’t happening.

I have no idea when I will know for sure that I have qualified, and it will be six to eight weeks before I see any money. I have to pay my people twice a month.

I worry about my clients’ ability to survive this. This causes several concerns. First, I care about them, and, second, will they be able to pay their bills? If 25% of my clients go out of business and can’t pay their bills, I can’t pay mine and I follow suit.
I never would have thought, four weeks ago, that I would be working from home, cutting my own hair and making my own hand sanitizer.

That a big adventure would be a walk around the neighbourhood.

Ironically, COVID-19 has brought us many gifts. It has forced us to think of and embrace what matters … our family, friends, health and time on Earth. We are enjoying parks and board games, music, hobbies and crafts.

Conversely, it has brought about death, financial ruin, fear and isolation.

What matters in my view is the long game. We protect and embrace our families, but we also protect and preserve that which makes it all possible — good business.

The people who own and run the businesses that employ the people who we are trying to protect. The businesses that donate more to charity and pay more taxes to keep our parks clean and our community centres open.
And that will give you a good haircut when this all subsides.	

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/business-on-the-brink-dan-dagg-the-people-i-had-to-lay-off-are-friends-1.24120222


----------



## mariomike

I read this,



> As unemployment approaches 20%, each 1% rise can result in 3.3% spike in drug OD/ 1% increase in suicides (National Bureau of Economic Research.) If unemployment hits 32%, ~77,000 Americans may die as a result. Will economic fallout mortality be greater than the virus itself?
> 
> https://twitter.com/NBSaphierMD/status/1251270045923192832



From Mar. 18. In Renfrew County ON,

Renfrew County paramedics testing for COVID-19 at home
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/renfrew-paramedics-covid19-test-1.5498850

"Residents who want to be tested at home must first call the Renfrew County and District Health Unit at 613-735-8654 extension 577 and speak to a nurse.

If they are eligible, paramedics are sent to their home to check on them and take a nose swab for testing at a nearby lab."


----------



## tomahawk6

Japan is struggling with a new wave of infections.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/japanese-medical-workers-fear-the-worst-as-coronavirus-cases-spike/ar-BB12OhZd?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## FJAG

> COVID-19: London defence giant helps hospitals battle pandemic
> 
> London’s armoured vehicle maker is offering medical support to London Health Sciences Centre to battle the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> FREE PRESS STAFF Updated: April 17, 2020
> 
> General Dynamics Land Systems Canada is donating 14 ventilators and 860 N95 masks to London Health Sciences Centre.
> 
> The defence industry giant on Oxford Street East has the ventilators and masks for use in ambulance versions of the light armoured vehicles it assembles.
> 
> “Our focus is on protecting soldiers by manufacturing the equipment that protects them on the front lines,” said GDLS Canada’s Doug Wilson-Hodge. “So, as you translate that into this particular fight against COVID-19, it’s a logical extension for our employees to say, ‘OK, how can we help these front-line workers and make this connection with this industry?’ ”



https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/covid-19-london-defence-giant-helps-hospitals-battle-pandemic

 :cheers:


----------



## Brad Sallows

>There are three new "long term care" homes being built within 5Km of my neighborhood, pretty sure that the rationale is economic rather than altruistic.

Elder care presents the same dilemma as child care:
1) People want the workers who look after children and elderly to be competent and reasonably compensated.
2) People complain about the cost of child and elder care.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >There are three new "long term care" homes being built within 5Km of my neighborhood, pretty sure that the rationale is economic rather than altruistic.
> 
> Elder care presents the same dilemma as child care:
> 1) People want the workers who look after children and elderly to be competent and reasonably compensated.
> 2) People complain about the cost of child and elder care.



That's a great point.


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mccann-accepts-joanne-liu-help-offer-chslds-1.5537204

 :facepalm:


----------



## Quirky

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >There are three new "long term care" homes being built within 5Km of my neighborhood, pretty sure that the rationale is economic rather than altruistic.
> 
> Elder care presents the same dilemma as child care:
> 1) People want the workers who look after children and elderly to be competent and reasonably compensated.
> 2) People complain about the cost of child and elder care.



Maybe we can combine the two and have elderly look after children. Win-win!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Kids are wonderful disease vectors and not all elders are nice. It does have merit though. A nice care home is $6-8,000 a month, not many can afford that in the long term.


----------



## blacktriangle

$6-8k a month? So in other words, the net income of someone that makes over 100k/year. 

I guess I will have to put myself out on an ice floe or something. I prefer to spend my cash.


----------



## my72jeep

Colin P said:
			
		

> Kids are wonderful disease vectors and not all elders are nice. It does have merit though. A nice care home is $6-8,000 a month, not many can afford that in the long term.


I guess I’m lucky I’m only forking out $2500 a month for my dads home. But I pay out of pocket for the extras.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=reverse_engineer]

I guess I will have to put myself out on an ice floe or something. I prefer to spend my cash.
[/quote]
Do you have kids?


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you have kids?



Nah. If I had kids, I wouldn't have any cash to begin with.  ;D


----------



## Remius

my72jeep said:
			
		

> I guess I’m lucky I’m only forking out $2500 a month for my dads home. But I pay out of pocket for the extras.



My father in law’s home is 2800 a month


----------



## tomahawk6

The US-Camada border shut down is extended another 30 days to non-essential travel.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-us-extend-border-restrictions-by-30-days/ar-BB12QgqH?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## FJAG

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The US-Camada border shut down is extended another 30 days to non-essential travel.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canada-us-extend-border-restrictions-by-30-days/ar-BB12QgqH?ocid=spartanntp



Good! (Says the guy living sixty kilometres from the Michigan border.)

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Interesting, to me at least, when researchers can drill down into specific neighbourhoods, or even postal / ZIP codes.

Haven't seen much data for Canada. But, there is for New York. In some neighbourhoods, at home DOAs are more than 10 times higher than they were last year. 

27 DOAs in another, compared to 2 in the same time period last year. 

16 in another, compared to 1 same time last year. etc...

City-wide average for all five boroughs is 6 times higher.

Also, concern about a spike "in a week or two" following the Easter and Passover holidays.  

Saw this in US politics,



			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Maybe the final nail in the coffin for public sector defined-benefit pension plans?



If you are already receiving an OMERS pension, I would not worry.

"Without question, pensions will continue to be paid on the first business day of each month."

And, regarding those DOAs...

The city medical examiner’s office tells his wife it could take “three hours to three days” to pick the body up.

https://nypost.com/2020/04/18/nyc-woman-slams-de-blasio-after-relatives-body-left-at-home/


----------



## my72jeep

FJAG said:
			
		

> Good! (Says the guy living sixty kilometres from the Michigan border.)
> 
> :cheers:


I hear you when I look across the lake I live on I see Michigan.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Military medical team in Quebec:

https://twitter.com/RadioCanadaInfo/status/1251643218082648068

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIaCBGDv-Iw

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=250109552799458


----------



## Sub_Guy

I was killing some time reading threads on Reddit and I came across something which peaked my curiosity.

Some units are ordering troops to open Facebook accounts (to keep troops informed during this crisis). Would there be any disciplinary actions that could be taken against someone who refused to open a social media account?

My first impression is what kind of shitty COC would try to order folks to do that.  What’s next? Everyone has to be on Instagram? Snapchat?


----------



## blacktriangle

Whatever happened to a phone call, text, or e-mail?

Just for a laugh, I’d be curious to hear which specific units are doing this.


----------



## dapaterson

On the plus side, a CoC that's aware that anything beyond a black telephone with a dial exists as a tool to communicate with soldiers is positive progress.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> On the plus side, a CoC that's aware that anything beyond a black telephone with a dial exists as a tool to communicate with soldiers is positive progress.



They have that now? Seriously?


----------



## Weinie

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I was killing some time reading threads on Reddit and I came across something which peaked my curiosity.
> 
> _*Some units are ordering troops to open Facebook accounts (to keep troops informed during this crisis). Would there be any disciplinary actions that could be taken against someone who refused to open a social media account?*_
> 
> My first impression is what kind of shitty COC would try to order folks to do that.  What%u2019s next? Everyone has to be on Instagram? Snapchat?



Dolphin_Hunter,

Is there any indication which unit(s) are doing this? Is this just a one-off, where a woke leader is trying to invoke his/her view of the benefits of SM?  There is a CAF app that provides direction/info from the top.


----------



## blacktriangle

dapaterson said:
			
		

> On the plus side, a CoC that's aware that anything beyond a black telephone with a dial exists as a tool to communicate with soldiers is positive progress.



Ha, I guess that’s true.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Weinie said:
			
		

> Dolphin_Hunter,
> 
> Is there any indication which unit(s) are doing this? Is this just a one-off, where a woke leader is trying to invoke his/her view of the benefits of SM?  There is a CAF app that provides direction/info from the top.



No, I have no idea where this is coming from.  It was probably a misinterpreted suggestion.


----------



## garb811

Anyone suggest that the OP should tell the unit that if they want them to have a Facebook account, they should pay for their internet connection and give them a computer yet?


----------



## Sprinting Thistle

The CDS will be issuing orders via TikTok soon.


----------



## blacktriangle

Why not issue CANFORGENs via dead drops and one-time pads?


----------



## Jarnhamar

For a while some units were ordering their members to download apps like WhatsApp and Google chat or whatever it's called (still might be?) I'm some cases (two I know of) it looks like people realized you can't really order people to do that so it becomes highly recommended, with names on a list of who doesn't play ball.


----------



## MilEME09

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> For a while some units were ordering their members to download apps like WhatsApp and Google chat or whatever it's called (still might be?) I'm some cases (two I know of) it looks like people realized you can't really order people to do that so it becomes highly recommended, with names on a list of who doesn't play ball.



Here is the loop hole with enforcement, find me a QR&O, DAOD, erc.. that states one must have a social media account. Other then the units own directive, no rule is being broken. My Reserve unit uses teamsnap to track and forecast attendance, same thing, it is unit SOP to use it but if you dont update, there is not much you can be charged for.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> For a while some units were ordering their members to download apps like WhatsApp and Google chat or whatever it's called (still might be?) I'm some cases (two I know of) it looks like people realized you can't really order people to do that so it becomes highly recommended, with names on a list of who doesn't play ball.



Google Hangouts is what you're thinking of. 

I wonder if some "smart" leader realized the liability they forced on the CAF after WhatsApp was found to have huge security holes that were now open on some poor soldier's private device that holds his banking information....


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> There is a CAF app that provides direction/info from the top.



Pet peeve time.

An App is a program that is personalized, interactive and lets me accomplish something.  The CAF and HR-Civ downloads for Android and iOS are curated information that is not personalized or interactive, and doesn't let me do things.

A CAF App would give me my pay statement; would let me request leave and approve it for my subordinates; would let me see my MPRR and request amendments; as a supervisor, let me add quals (within my arcs) for subordinates; would let me see my supply docs... in short, it would give me information I require as well as letting me see the latest CANFORGENs a few days after they've been leaked to Reddit.

As they currently stand, the CAF and HR-Civ "apps" are PA products only - not useful apps.


----------



## Weinie

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Here is the loop hole with enforcement, find me a QR&O, DAOD, erc.. that states one must have a social media account. Other then the units own directive, no rule is being broken. My Reserve unit uses teamsnap to track and forecast attendance, same thing, _*it is unit SOP to use it but if you dont update, there is not much you can be charged for.*_


Likely nothing that you can be charged for, but...…..we have all seen the ostracizing and silent punishment inflicted on those who don't toe the party line.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pet peeve time.
> 
> An App is a program that is personalized, interactive and lets me accomplish something.  The CAF and HR-Civ downloads for Android and iOS are curated information that is not personalized or interactive, and doesn't let me do things.
> 
> A CAF App would give me my pay statement; would let me request leave and approve it for my subordinates; would let me see my MPRR and request amendments; as a supervisor, let me add quals (within my arcs) for subordinates; would let me see my supply docs... in short, it would give me information I require as well as letting me see the latest CANFORGENs a few days after they've been leaked to Reddit.
> 
> As they currently stand, the CAF and HR-Civ "apps" are PA products only - not useful apps.



Whoa, you seem to think we operate in 2020.


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pet peeve time.
> 
> An App is a program that is personalized, interactive and lets me accomplish something.  The CAF and HR-Civ downloads for Android and iOS are curated information that is not personalized or interactive, and doesn't let me do things.
> 
> A CAF App would give me my pay statement; would let me request leave and approve it for my subordinates; would let me see my MPRR and request amendments; as a supervisor, let me add quals (within my arcs) for subordinates; would let me see my supply docs... in short, it would give me information I require as well as letting me see the latest CANFORGENs a few days after they've been leaked to Reddit.
> 
> As they currently stand, the CAF and HR-Civ "apps" are PA products only - not useful apps.



You've obviously seen MonitorMass and DNDLearn... I don't want a CAF-coded app anywhere near my phone or personal information.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pet peeve time.
> 
> An App is a program that is personalized, interactive and lets me accomplish something.  The CAF and HR-Civ downloads for Android and iOS are curated information that is not personalized or interactive, and doesn't let me do things.
> 
> A CAF App would give me my pay statement; would let me request leave and approve it for my subordinates; would let me see my MPRR and request amendments; as a supervisor, let me add quals (within my arcs) for subordinates; would let me see my supply docs... in short, it would give me information I require as well as letting me see the latest CANFORGENs a few days after they've been leaked to Reddit.
> 
> As they currently stand, the CAF and HR-Civ "apps" are PA products only - not useful apps.



(Hypothetical of course—I’m not a techy, so can only look at this through my limited capability.) That sounds very cool in theory, but not sure how feasible that would ever be in practise. Let’s say a super adds quals via an app as mentioned. That would cause extra work and confusion, as how would one sync app changes/additions to mbr quals with, say, monitor mass? Someone has to be maintaining/cross referencing app info with our other programs on a regular basis. 

If all unit Coys, Ops and OR (where applicable) and all supes have excellent and organized communication, then maybe they could make sure everything is coordinated. But as it is right now, in some units communication breaks down frequently enough that things get lost in the shuffle. Pte Bloggins doesn’t have a record of whatever listed in MM, but it’s in his pers file, or what have you. I think there’d simply be too much margin for error to initiate something like that. 

Some of the other elements you mentioned could work though. Security is the biggest issue though, as I see it.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pet peeve time.
> 
> An App is a program that is personalized, interactive and lets me accomplish something.  The CAF and HR-Civ downloads for Android and iOS are curated information that is not personalized or interactive, and doesn't let me do things.
> 
> A CAF App would give me my pay statement; would let me request leave and approve it for my subordinates; would let me see my MPRR and request amendments; as a supervisor, let me add quals (within my arcs) for subordinates; would let me see my supply docs... in short, it would give me information I require as well as letting me see the latest CANFORGENs a few days after they've been leaked to Reddit.
> 
> As they currently stand, the CAF and HR-Civ "apps" are PA products only - not useful apps.



Got it, but seems I didn't explain my pointing to the CAF app well.  Perhaps a lesson learned from long ago will add some context.

During the early nineties, I was the ADC to a couple of two stars in LFCA. I accompanied the bosses on all of their trips, and encountered a whole bunch of subbies, Capt's, and Majors who I knew personally. Invariably, I was asked "what the %^&* was the General thinking when he issued this order." After several iterations of this, and with some digging, it quickly became clear that the "telephone game" was the problem. Comd LFCA would issue direction to Bde Comds, who would issue to CO's, to Coy Comds, Pl Comds, section comds etc. Every one of those levels would tack on their own spin, so that by the time it reached section/pl, and sometimes even Bn's, it bore no resemblance whatsoever to what the Area Comd had directed, rather it reflected personal bias and interpretation.

Whether you think the CAF App is PA spun or not is irrelevant. It is a direct reflection of what the CDS and DM have stated. MY point was to start there for real info.


----------



## dapaterson

I don't mind giving commanders direct communication - I think it's a great thing.

But it's the nomenclature of "app" that bugs me.  It's a curated web front-end - not an interactive user tool.  And frankly, properly posting that to the web would be infinitely better (along with a curated system for presentation, if that's what rocks some ADM's boat because they heard that kids today are using) - because we'd get Google indexing things so we can actually find them, and not some crappy DND-specific search.  Imagine if you could use Google on CANFORGENs, and get results that include the ones that were cancelled (because - who knew - sometimes you need information from a cancelled message).


----------



## FJAG

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Here is the loop hole with enforcement, find me a QR&O, DAOD, erc.. that states one must have a social media account. Other then the units own directive, no rule is being broken. My Reserve unit uses teamsnap to track and forecast attendance, same thing, it is unit SOP to use it but if you dont update, there is not much you can be charged for.



The offence of "Disobedience of a Lawful Command" does not require that there be a QR&O, DAOD etc merely that the command be a lawful one relating to a military duty and made by a superior officer. 

With reservists there may be an issue as to the timing that the command is to be obeyed in that it may relate to the setting up of the account at a time when the soldier may not be subject to the Code of Service Discipline although if artfully crafted that can probably be dealt with. 

I won't argue the issue of whether or not such a command is "lawful" but merely offer that setting up a system for rapid communication of military information and instructions would more probably be on the lawful side.

 :cheers:


----------



## Brad Sallows

Why would any leader with an ounce of self-preservation instinct accept the consequences (potential liability) of "ordering" someone to engage with a public online platform?


----------



## my72jeep

My last command frowned on social media (ie facebook) for the same reason as to why some people want to use it now, it’s hyper fast ability to disseminate information. But said command was not above using info,photos, actions found on said social media to file charges, or issue warnings or the dreaded C & P.


----------



## FJAG

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Why would any leader with an ounce of self-preservation instinct accept the consequences (potential liability) of "ordering" someone to engage with a public online platform?



I wouldn't. But then again I'm an old bugger that lived in the days of telephone fan outs.

 ;D


----------



## dapaterson

Meanwhile, in case the 5G theories aren't cray cray enough for you...

"The government is making us quarantine so they can change the batteries in the pigeons."

https://twitter.com/al_ghazu/status/1251035680685383680


----------



## Weinie

And lately I have been seeing a lot more of these birds with reddish brown shirts on.


----------



## kev994

We were wondering a couple weeks ago how Sweden’s strategy of only quarantining the vulnerable would work. Turns out it doesn’t. 

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/anger-in-sweden-as-elderly-pay-price-for-coronavirus-strategy?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1587283416


----------



## PuckChaser

Sweden has more deaths than Canada with almost 1/4th the population.... yikes


----------



## Brad Sallows

That might push the "Why I Hope to Die at 75" (Ezekiel Emmanuel) lobby back under the rocks for a while.  Otherwise, this is their moment to fulfill themselves.


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:
			
		

> We were wondering a couple weeks ago how Sweden’s strategy of only quarantining the vulnerable would work. Turns out it doesn’t.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/anger-in-sweden-as-elderly-pay-price-for-coronavirus-strategy?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1587283416



Elderly in our care homes are also getting hit hard so our strategy isn't exactly a model to go off either. Damned if you do damned if you don't, nature will take its course and find a way.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> Elderly in our care homes are also getting hit hard so our strategy isn't exactly a model to go off either. Damned if you do damned if you don't, nature will take its course and find a way.



It could be worse here if we followed that model.  As mentioned they are all a quarter of our population yet have more deaths than us. 

If we followed that model our deaths would be proportional.  Not good.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, Sweden's 'light touch' hits the elderly in nursing homes particularly hard:


Anger in Sweden as elderly pay price for coronavirus strategy

Staff with no masks or sanitiser fear for residents as hundreds die in care homes

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/anger-in-sweden-as-elderly-pay-price-for-coronavirus-strategy


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Russia reports record daily rise in coronavirus cases*
> 
> Russia on Sunday reported a record rise of 6,060 new coronavirus cases over the previous 24 hours, bringing its nationwide tally to 42,853, the Russian coronavirus crisis response center said.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-cases-idUSKBN221086


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hidden death toll: Doctors say people dying as they avoid ERs due to COVID fears

Health-care providers are warning of an unseen toll COVID-19 could take if people die because they are too afraid to go to an emergency room for serious health issues unrelated to the pandemic.

“There’s going to be secondary harm. Make no mistake,” said Dr. Alan Drummond with the Canadian Federation of Emergency Physicians.

Drummond said doctors are noticing that emergency rooms across the country are quieter and, when people do come in, too often the situation is already dire.

“I lost the battle to save a patient last night because they waited too long to come to the hospital,” Dr. Jeff Shaw, a cardiologist in Calgary, posted on Twitter earlier this week.


https://vancouversun.com/news/canada/hidden-death-toll-doctors-say-people-dying-as-they-avoid-ers-due-to-covid-fears/wcm/ee107e81-8d5f-44a9-b6c8-9982aa674ab1/


----------



## dimsum

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, in case the 5G theories aren't cray cray enough for you...
> 
> "The government is making us quarantine so they can change the batteries in the pigeons."
> 
> https://twitter.com/al_ghazu/status/1251035680685383680



After reading his tweets, I'm unsure whether this is satirical or not.  

I suppose that's the common theme for the conspiratards.


----------



## dapaterson

Uncertain if they are stupid or merely narcissistic assholes also applies to ACSO LGen (retired).


----------



## Blackadder1916

"Virus" and "elder" related.

Cobol Programmers Answer Call to Shore Up Unemployment Benefits Systems
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/cobol-programmers-answer-call-unemployment-benefits-systems


> Retirees and newcomers want to help fix old software overloaded by new claims caused by the coronavirus pandemic
> 
> By Michelle V. Rafter
> 
> Cobol programmers in the United States are heeding the call to work on antiquated state unemployment benefits computer systems that are straining under the unprecedented increase in claims filed because of COVID-19.
> 
> Applications for jobless benefits have soared in recent weeks. People who were laid off after employers curtailed operations or shut down completely because of the new coronavirus filed 6.6 million new claims for benefits in the week ending 4 April. The new claims brought the three-week total to more than 16 million, the equivalent of a tenth of the U.S. workforce.
> 
> The spike in new claims has inundated benefits computer systems in states such as Connecticut, Florida, and elsewhere, some of which haven’t updated their Cobol-based mainframe systems in years, or decades.
> 
> New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy drove that point home during an 4 April press conference when he mistakenly referred to needing programmers with “Cobalt” skills to work on the state’s 40-year-old unemployment benefits system. “There’ll be lots of post-mortems and one of them on our list will be how the heck did we get here when we literally needed Cobol programmers,” Murphy said in the press conference.
> 
> New Jersey isn’t alone. Florida’s unemployment claims system has been so overwhelmed, the state is reverting to using paper applications. Massachusetts deployed more than 500 new employees to work remotely to meet increased demand that has overloaded its unemployment system.
> 
> Connecticut’s Department of Labor shelved work on an updated jobless benefits system in order to manage the influx of new requests caused by the economic downturn related to the virus. In the past three weeks, the department processed more new applications than it would normally handle in 18 months and currently has a six-week backlog, according to state officials.
> 
> Connecticut’s labor department is bringing back retirees and using IT staff from other departments to upgrade its 40-year-old system, which runs on a Cobol mainframe and connected components. The system is not fully automated, and requires manual actions at multiple points in the process, according to Nancy Steffens, the department’s head of communications. “I don’t have any info to provide to you other than some of the retirees returning to work are programmers knowledgeable in Cobol,” Steffens said.
> 
> . . .
> 
> As states struggle, seasoned programmers are lining up to help. In recent weeks, Cobol Cowboys has been inundated with inquiries from veteran programmers interested in putting their Cobol skills to work. The Gainesville, Texas, firm operates as a job placement agency to match programmers who work as independent contractors with public and private sector projects that fit their skills.
> 
> In the past three years, the company’s database of programmers who know Cobol and other, more modern languages, has grown from 50 to close to 350. Their average age is between 45 and 60. “We have an older gentleman, a man who did some work with Grace Hopper, who I’d say is in his mid-80s,” said Eileen Hinshaw, the company’s chief operating officer.


----------



## Brad Sallows

*shrug* You either pays to keep hardware and software up-to-date, or you doesn't.


----------



## FJAG

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> *shrug* You either pays to keep hardware and software up-to-date, or you doesn't.



Reminds me when around 2007 I visited the Canada Archives facilities in Halifax and saw stacks and stacks of large format spools of computer tapes. I asked the custodian what they were and he told me these were all the engineering data from the old Frigate program. Not only was there no computer left that could run these the tapes but they were also disintegrating. Basically wasted shelf space. Lot of that around.

 :cheers:


----------



## tomahawk6

An article asking questions on how the CDG was infected. Like the Teddy Roosevelt it started with a port call. In a post coronavirus world I can see naval ships and possible cruise ships avoiding port calls. As this virus is better understood and or a vaccine is found its safer to keep crews on board.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-an-invisible-foe-slipped-aboard-a-french-navy-ship/ar-BB12Sjam?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## mariomike

Two health care workers in Denver counter-gridlocking the gridlock protesters.
https://twitter.com/shafieikeyvan/status/1251988831559208963

Screams of, "Go to China" at an Asian - American health care worker.

Long line of reefers.
https://twitter.com/60Minutes/status/1252010927911772163


----------



## stellarpanther

I read on another site, and it stuck with me over the past few days:  "The curve is flattening we can start lifting restrictions now = the parachute is slowing our descent we can take it off now."

This analogy makes perfect sense to me, if we loosen things up and start returning to normal, how can anyone think they can keep the numbers down.  The reason  the various governments have been giving for numbers that appear to be slowing is because of the social distancing.  I hate to sound negative but IMO, this is financially motivated which I understand but I think things will worse if we start reopening.


----------



## dapaterson

Interesting paper published by the Ethics department at Harvard, with multiple partners providing input, on the road to back to normal.

https://ethics.harvard.edu/files/center-for-ethics/files/roadmaptopandemicresilience_final_0.pdf


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I read on another site, and it stuck with me over the past few days:  "The curve is flattening we can start lifting restrictions now = the parachute is slowing our descent we can take it off now."
> 
> This analogy makes perfect sense to me, if we loosen things up and start returning to normal, how can anyone think they can keep the numbers down.  The reason  the various governments have been giving for numbers that appear to be slowing is because of the social distancing.  I hate to sound negative but IMO, this is financially motivated which I understand but I think things will worse if we start reopening.



I'm not sure financial motivations are totally inappropriate. At some point, the "cure" will be worse than the disease if we completely crash the economy and as a result, society. The US Federal Reserve has already predicted 32% unemployment (https://nypost.com/2020/03/31/federal-reserve-predicts-32-unemployment-rate-thanks-to-coronavirus/). The highest unemployment ever seen in the Great Depression was 24% in the US to put that in context and people still talk about how bad the Depression was. We're on a collision course with something much uglier that could result in many more deaths than COVID-19.

Take as an example the "Great Recession" of last decade; researchers at Imperial College London linked 500,000 cancer deaths to the Great Recession.  They found unemployment and health care cuts lead to these half a million tragedies: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/25/financial-crisis-caused-500000-extra-cancer-death-according-to-l/; A University of Oxford study linked 10,000 suicide deaths to the Great Recession: https://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2014/06/12/more-than-10000-suicides-tied-to-economic-crisis-study-says/#117f05977ae2

The Depression that is being created by the lockdowns will make that recession look like a walk in the park. The longer the lockdown goes the worst it gets. Even the people with pensions and good government jobs who are still getting their full pay will not be safe because eventually government incurring more and more debt will stop working.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>This analogy makes perfect sense to me

The analogy is ridiculous.  To start removing some restrictions is not the same as removing all restrictions.  I've seen that analogy posted by several people, who also call "stupid" on those who are calling for removal of some restrictions.  But you have to be pretty "stupid" yourself to confuse "some" with "all".  I suppose it's just their knees jerking because they don't politically identify with the people calling for "some": "X" believes "Y"; I am politically opposed to "X", therefore, I believe "not-Y".

"Financial" is not the only motivation.  Issues & Insights article  about some potential impacts of other things going undone as noted in a UN report.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

kev994 said:
			
		

> We were wondering a couple weeks ago how Sweden’s strategy of only quarantining the vulnerable would work. Turns out it doesn’t.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/19/anger-in-sweden-as-elderly-pay-price-for-coronavirus-strategy?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1587283416



This article doesn't seem to make the case that quarantining only the vulnerable doesn't work.

It would seem to show only that failing to actually quarantine and protect those people doesn't work. A representative quote near the beginning: “They [the home] opened up for Skype calls and that’s when I saw two employees. I didn’t see any masks and they didn’t have gloves on." 

And "Its advice to the care workers and nurses looking after older people such as Bondesson’s 69-year-old mother is that they should not wear protective masks or use other protective equipment unless they are dealing with a resident in the home they have reason to suspect is infected ... “Where I’m working we don’t have face masks at all, and we are working with the most vulnerable people of all,” said one care home worker, who wanted to remain anonymous."

So the issue isn't that they failed to quarantine the whole country and self-destruct their economy, the problem is that they are taking no steps to protect the elderly people in homes from potentially carrying staff.

An alternative view on Sweden's situation: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-19/sweden-says-controversial-covid-19-strategy-is-proving-effective

*"As of Sunday, Sweden had reported 1,540 deaths tied to Covid-19, an increase of 29 from Saturday. That’s considerably more than in the rest of Scandinavia, but much less than in Italy, Spain and the U.K., both in absolute and relative terms."

“The trend we have seen in recent days, with a more flat curve -- where we have many new cases, but not a daily increase -- is stabilizing,” Karin Tegmark Wisell, head of the microbiology department at Sweden’s Public Health Authority, said on Friday. “We are seeing the same pattern for patients in intensive care.”

... overall, Lofven’s strategy has won the approval of Swedes, and his personal popularity has soared.*


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Can't comment, wish I could.  

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/brampton-jail-temporarily-closed-due-to-covid-19-outbreak-1.4903721

 A spokesperson for the Ministry of the Solicitor General has confirmed to CP24 that eight staff members and 60 inmates at the Ontario Correctional Institute have now tested positive for COVID-19.

The spokesperson says that given “the dormitory style setting” of the institution, a decision has been made to order its temporary closure effective April 21.
At this point, it is unclear when the facility will reopen.

“All inmates are being transferred to a separate area at Toronto South Detention Centre (TSDC), and will not be placed with existing TSDC inmates to reduce any potential spread of COVID-19,” Kristy Denette said in a written statement. “TSDC, our newest facility, has a modern healthcare unit with medical isolation units and appropriate resources, to effectively manage and support inmates with COVID-19.”

Denette said that all staff from the Ontario Correctional Institute are being asked to self-isolate at home for 14 days as a precaution.
She said that the facility itself will also undergo a “deep cleaning” while it is closed.
“We continue to work with Peel Public Health to identify and test staff and inmates who may be impacted,” she said.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> ... overall, Lofven’s strategy has won the approval of Swedes, and his personal popularity has soared.[/b]


Well except for the ones who's parents had to be sacrificed I'm sure.


----------



## stellarpanther

I would love for someone to tell me how anyone with children who are still at an age where they need supervision are supposed to go back to work if schools, daycares etc are still closed.  If called back right now, what do people in the military do with their kids?


----------



## Quirky

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> ... overall, Lofven’s strategy has won the approval of Swedes, and his personal popularity has soared.[/b]



Maybe the trend with Sweden is they saw their peak jump of deaths, but it will now plateau and drop off. This only took a month and their economic impact has been, presumably, minor. Meanwhile in Canada we are seeing a slow steady rise in deaths over time, but perhaps it's safe to say those who contract this will die either way? Sweden has decided to rip off the bandaid quickly, while we take our time and inflict more pain and suffering.  ???



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If called back right now, what do people in the military do with their kids?



As per norm, people without kids will have to pick up the slack.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well except for the ones who's parents had to be sacrificed I'm sure.



Well, they've lost fewer people both absolutely and relatively as compared to Italy, UK, and Germany who are following the "approved procedure" so I would say that they are doing well. Unfortunately it is impossible to prevent all deaths. Obviously draconian lockdowns and economic auto-demolition is not working better.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>If called back right now, what do people in the military do with their kids?

Buddy system?  Two families with at least one non-working parent make themselves an "isolation unit", and "pool" their children?


----------



## blacktriangle

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I would love for someone to tell me how anyone with children who are still at an age where they need supervision are supposed to go back to work if schools, daycares etc are still closed.  If called back right now, what do people in the military do with their kids?



Family Care Plan!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Well, they've lost fewer people both absolutely and relatively as compared to Italy, UK, and Germany who are following the "approved procedure" so I would say that they are doing well. Unfortunately it is impossible to prevent all deaths. Obviously draconian lockdowns and economic auto-demolition is not working better.




I'm sure lots of places that aren't too crowded and are not busy travel places did just fine also.   Comparisons really are useless since much reporting is either suspect, not accurate, and/or outright lies.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >If called back right now, what do people in the military do with their kids?
> 
> Buddy system?  Two families with at least one non-working parent make themselves an "isolation unit", and "pool" their children?



I think this would be illegal without a change to the emergency laws that have been passed. In Ontario, at least, any gathering over 5 is illegal. I guess it would work if each family has 2 children then one parent.


----------



## stellarpanther

Something else I heard this weekend was, what do people who are considered to vulnerable do if told to report back to work? There are a lot of people these days with diabetes as just one example of a medical condition.  We have a substantial number of people in the CAF with diabetes for example as well as people with asthma.  Even in Trumps phased reopening, people in the vulnerable categories should continue isolating until a vaccine or treatment is developed.  That will leave large gaps in companies and the military.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>I think this would be illegal without a change to the emergency laws that have been passed. 

I figured; but I also like to believe that reasonable governments want to find workable solutions and aren't going to let their own rules stand in their way if a simple change will do.

>In Ontario, at least, any gathering over 5 is illegal.

Which obviously doesn't apply to families > 5, which is why the idea of forming a "unit" - especially between people who already have at least a neighbourly connection - shouldn't split any heads.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Something else I heard this weekend was, what do people who are considered to vulnerable do if told to report back to work? 

Canada has the advantage of being an arctic nation; these people will be deployed to an ice floe to do arctic sovereignty patrols while the regular staff are deployed south.


----------



## stellarpanther

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Family Care Plan!



I would guess that approx. 60-70 percent of the family care plans involve mbr's using their parents. This topic came up during a conference call last week and apparently the leadership is aware of this potential problem.

Also, since a lot of families are not even letting their kids play with each other, I doubt they would take a friends kid in right now.


----------



## Quirky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I would guess that approx. 60-70 percent of the family care plans involve mbr's using their parents. This topic came up during a conference call last week and apparently the leadership is aware of this potential problem.
> 
> Also, since a lot of families are not even letting their kids play with each other, I doubt they would take a friends kid in right now.



I wonder if any other employers will allow their employees to stay home, paid, to take care of their kids....


----------



## stellarpanther

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Something else I heard this weekend was, what do people who are considered to vulnerable do if told to report back to work?
> 
> Canada has the advantage of being an arctic nation; these people will be deployed to an ice floe to do arctic sovereignty patrols while the regular staff are deployed south.



I don't think it's going to get to that stage where the HRA's, FSA's, Cooks etc who normally work in close quarters in a office or kitchen will instead be sent off to do a sovereignty patrol instead.


----------



## blacktriangle

I truly feel for those with kids, medical conditions etc. However, I also feel for military planners who have to coordinate a response when only a handful of service members are in good health and without family obligations. Not to mention the taxpayers who fund the whole gig...


----------



## stellarpanther

Quirky said:
			
		

> I wonder if any other employers will allow their employees to stay home, paid, to take care of their kids....



This is where the government will need to have rules in place.  Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Stellarpanther, you are aware that lots of folks that are working right now, I mean really working, not getting full pay to stay home and be healthy, are able to bear children also, and therefore are actual living the problem that you are pre-complaining about??


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Stellarpanther, you are aware that lots of folks that are working right now, I mean really working, not getting full pay to stay home and be healthy, are able to bear children also, and therefore are actual living the problem that you are pre-complaining about??



I'm sure you're right and there are a lot of people most likely not following what the government is ask them to do and it they did, I don't know how they are working.  I'm also not pre-complaining.  The situation about kids doesn't apply to me because my wife isn't working but the questions I am asking are questions we are hearing from mbr's.  These are the types of questions that people like to ask HRA's but unfortunately we don't have the answers and people are stressing about this.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Stellarpanther, you are aware that lots of folks that are working right now, I mean really working, not getting full pay to stay home and be healthy, are able to bear children also, and therefore are actual living the problem that you are pre-complaining about??



It is still a good question.  Most people have to worry about 4 to 5 years of childcare before school takes over.  And then maybe have to worry about before and after school care.  

If schools are still shut down, say until sept.  It puts a lot of people in a difficult spot.  Especially since summer programs won’t likely be running.  

Finding enough childcare spots is going to be a challenge.  

Not every family has two parents.  Not everyone has a solid family network to fall back on.  I would say that the CAF is very vulnerable to that reality more so than most occupations due to the realities of postings.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Right now we're trying to keep our business afloat while concurrently stick handling our two kids through middle school...

But I just had a look at the latest body count from Nova Scotia and you know what? 

I can't remember what I was going to complain about...


----------



## Journeyman

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I can't remember what I was going to complain about...


Absolutely. 

#CountYourBlessings  #SimplePleasures  #QuitYerWhining


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm trying to wrap my head around how asking legitimate questions about peoples legitimate concerns is complaining.  Whenever there is something that affects your Family Care Plan, you are supposed to report that.  It's also not complaining because someone has a question about a medical condition.  If someone doesn't like the questions, then write to your MP or MPP, they are the ones telling people that those with certain medical conditions need to focus extra hard on isolating and if you have one, then someone else should be the ones leaving the house for shopping etc.  Don't blame the person with the condition for listening to the government.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Alright I'll bite.......because HTF can anybody know what is going to happen not next Sept, not next month, not even next week right now?
Every game book that any of us thought we knew is being rewritten day by day, yet somehow you seem to be pissed that someone isn't handing you solid answers.
And other posters, myself included, are seeing this.....


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Alright I'll bite.......because HTF can anybody know what is going to happen not next Sept, not next month, not even next week right now?
> Every game book that any of us thought we knew is being rewritten day by day, yet somehow you seem to be pissed that someone isn't handing you solid answers.
> And other posters, myself included, are seeing this.....



It must be my poor writing style because I'm not pissed at all!


----------



## mariomike

Not Like the Flu, Not Like Car Crashes, Not Like... 
https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/not-like-the-flu-not-like-car-crashes-not-like


----------



## FJAG

mariomike said:
			
		

> Not Like the Flu, Not Like Car Crashes, Not Like...
> https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/not-like-the-flu-not-like-car-crashes-not-like



If those charts don't make you sit up and pay attention, if they don't make you understand what flattening the curve is all about, then there's little hope for you.

Good post.

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Man Who Called Ohio's Lockdown Order 'Bullshit' Has Succumbed To COVID-19

https://crooksandliars.com/2020/04/man-who-called-ohios-lockdown-order

John McDaniel railed on social media against Ohio's Gov. Mike DeWine's lockdown order . Weeks later he contracted the virus. A few days ago he died.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> Not Like the Flu, Not Like Car Crashes, Not Like...
> https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/not-like-the-flu-not-like-car-crashes-not-like



What a stupid graph. You can't catch cancer or heart disease from someone. In theory you catch a car crash from someone but I guess its all how you frame it. You would think a Science and Technology publication would try to be a little bit more factual by comparing apples to apples instead of apples to turnips on the same graph. If you cut those 3 unrelated things out, its actually even more striking of a visual on how serious COVID-19 could be if the curve doesn't peak soon for the US.


----------



## PuckChaser

Sorry you took my critique of someone else's graph personally.  ff topic:


----------



## suffolkowner

I think the graph is a little misleading for one the focus on the US could detract from the successes in other countries. The weekly scale does not have the resolution to show current daily fluctuations which may be close to peaking. In my opinion it overly minimizes the impacts of the 58 and 69 flu epidemics where millions died. Now I don't remember the 69 flu but I'm going to blame that on a black and white tv with 3 channels and being busy working and having a family. One has to account for the differences between endemic exposure to influenza(or coronaviruses or rhinoviruses,etc) that we experience seasonally and epidemic exposure to novel strains that appear periodically over greater time lengths that have much greater virulence. I believe the difference between endemic smallpox and epidemic smallpox is the difference between 20% mortality and 80% mortality for example. Hopefully there will be enough exposure from this event to provide greater immunity going forward


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You can't catch cancer or heart disease from someone. In theory you catch a car crash from someone but I guess its all how you frame it.  [...] If you cut those 3 unrelated things out, its actually even more striking of a visual on how serious COVID-19 could be if the curve doesn't peak soon for the US.



Actually, I saw the inclusion of these three "steady" type of illnesses and accident as being included solely as markers to permit people to put Covid-19 in perspective. It shows how a new transmissible illness like Covid-19 is completely different from illnesses or accidents that have a stable ongoing effect in that Covid-19 multiplies exponentially. It also shows that in a very short time, Covid has grown to affect more people than are involved in car accidents, more than affected by cancer and as many as are affected by heart diseases - these last two being the two top known causes of death in the population.

It only takes a second also for most people to realize that if things don't change in the USA, Covid-19 will very soon affect more people than Cancer, car crashes and heart diseases combined.

These are scary conclusions to draw, and I believe were the point of the graph.

I do agree, however, that from a scientific point of view, there is no reason to include those elements, if the graph was meant to teach or develop a scientific point. I saw it as meant to convey fear.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> #CountYourBlessings  #SimplePleasures  #QuitYerWhining


Don't forget #ItCanAlwaysBeWorse


----------



## Brad Sallows

The plots are weekly, not cumulative, new deaths.  So in week 7 Covid has matched heart disease.  But the total for heart disease in the 7 weeks is the "flat line" value, multiplied by 7 (weeks).  The total for Covid is the sum of the points shown, which is much less.  By visual inspection, it looks like the cumulative total has surpassed car crashes, but certainly not cancer.  If the Covid trend continues, its cumulative measure will surpass those of heart disease and cancer.  But the trend isn't assured.  And the measurement of deaths lags new infections.  The number of new infections could be falling already.

The slope of the new deaths weekly does emphasize how quickly "nothing to see here" can change into "how did that happen"?  But it's important to remember that the aim is not to flatten the case curve; it's only to keep the case curve below the capacity curve, and both can move or be deflected up or down.


----------



## FJAG

Pictures from several anti-lockdown protests:



> Anti-lockdown protests gather momentum as armed demonstrators waving Trump 2020 flags call for America to open NOW while Facebook REMOVES anti-quarantine posts and is accused of 'working with state governments to limit free speech'
> - In North Dakota, upset protesters swarmed the capitol building while carrying 'Don't Tread on Me' flags
> - In Ohio, a local militia group brandishing firearms and wearing face coverings gathered in Columbus Monday
> - In Pennsylvania, protesters gathered to fight stay-at-home orders outside the Capital Complex in Harrisburg
> - In California protesters jammed roads while honking and holding out signs while others disrespected social distancing rules by gathering in close proximity, blaring music and shouting to end the lockdown
> - Facebook faced backlash for reportedly colluding with state governments to stop anti-lockdown protests














And more:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8238403/Anti-lockdown-protesters-gather-North-Dakota-Pennsylvania-protests-stay-home-orders.html

 :-X


----------



## MilEME09

And I bet they didnt get fined for their violations


----------



## kev994

Another study indicating this is more widespread than testing indicates.   Los Angeles study suggests virus much more widespread
An estimated 320,000 adults in Los Angeles County may have been infected with coronavirus, according to preliminary results of a study that suggests the illness is far more widespread than current testing shows and the death rate is much lower. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/los-angeles-study-suggests-virus-much-more-widespread-1.4904990


----------



## Kat Stevens

I caught a bit about that UCLA study on the KTLA news from Los Angeles. Sub text? Hey, this bug ain't that bad, surfs up dudes! Kawabunga!


----------



## Journeyman

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> What a stupid graph. You can't catch cancer or heart disease from someone.


I'd guess that those other causes of death are included because Fox News and 'end-isolation' protesters are routinely saying false analogy shit like "people die of cancer and car crashes; why aren't you oppressing me because of those?"  :dunno:

You're right though, cutting the unrelated things out would provide a more striking of a visual on how serious COVID-19 could be if the curve doesn't peak soon for the US.

Of course, Georgia is opening up pretty much everything this weekend; we'll see how that inevitable spike gets explained away.  (You'll recall the Geo. governor is the one who said they "just learned" that asymptomatic people could infect others.  :facepalm: )


----------



## dimsum

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, Georgia is opening up pretty much everything this weekend; we'll see how that inevitable spike gets explained away.  (You'll recall the Geo. governor is the one who said they "just learned" that asymptomatic people could infect others.  :facepalm: )



"Libtards".


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Global coronavirus cases pass 2.5 million as U.S. tally nears 800,000*
> 
> The figure includes more than 170,000 deaths, two-thirds of which have been reported in Europe.
> 
> It took around 75 days for the first 500,000 cases to be reported, and just six days for the most recent half million to be registered.
> 
> The first 41 cases were confirmed on Jan. 10, just over three months ago, and new cases have accelerated to over 70,000 a day in April.
> 
> It compares to 3 million to 5 million cases of severe illness caused annually by seasonal influenza, according to World Health Organisation estimates.
> 
> While experts say actual cases of the new coronavirus are likely higher than current reports, the number still falls far short of the Spanish flu, which began in 1918 and infected an estimated 500 million people.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cases/global-coronavirus-cases-pass-2-5-million-as-u-s-tally-nears-800000-idUSKCN2232IF


----------



## PuckChaser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'd guess that those other causes of death are included because Fox News and 'end-isolation' protesters are routinely saying false analogy crap like "people die of cancer and car crashes; why aren't you oppressing me because of those?"  :dunno:



Before we blame Fox News for stoking the conspiracy theories on government lockdowns, both sides of the spectrum downplayed COVID-19:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/01/coronavirus-flu-deadlier-more-widespread-than-wuhan-china-virus/4632508002/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/time-for-a-reality-check-america-the-flu-is-a-much-bigger-threat-than-coronavirus-for-now/2020/01/31/46a15166-4444-11ea-b5fc-eefa848cde99_story.html
https://apnews.com/6f7d691099b499bbf38fdfe7875126e0

Part of that is likely due to the deliberately false data China was feeding to WHO, but its interesting to see them flip on the issue without any admission to being incorrect to start with.

I also try to remember the US system is far more polarized than Canadian politics. Libertarian is a strong movement in the US (its relatively fringe here), and their entire country was born of distrust of oppressive government. A lot of Americans are raised with that extreme distrust of the government and strong self-determination ideals so the idea of a lockdown, especially in today's "Me First" selfish culture is likely the underlying cause of a lot of these protests.

I think you're also going to see a lot more if the lockdown continues as people who are living paycheque to paycheque (59% of the US in 2019 https://content.schwab.com/web/retail/public/about-schwab/Charles-Schwab-2019-Modern-Wealth-Survey-findings-0519-9JBP.pdf) transition to survival mode because they can't put food on the table. This will be especially true for those laid off living in major urban centers who are both hard hit with COVID-19, and have a lot of low income workers trying to survive in high cost cities. It'd be interesting to see modeling on the mortality rate of a prolonged lockdown/economic crash.


----------



## Ralph

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, Georgia is opening up pretty much everything this weekend; we'll see how that inevitable spike gets explained away.  (You'll recall the Geo. governor is the one who said they "just learned" that asymptomatic people could infect others.  :facepalm: )



Add pers visiting IOT break their horrific weeks-long fast for a day or two from the five states surrounding Georgia as well...


----------



## mariomike

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Of course, Georgia is opening up pretty much everything this weekend; we'll see how that inevitable spike gets explained away.  (You'll recall the Geo. governor is the one who said they "just learned" that asymptomatic people could infect others.  :facepalm: )






			
				Ralph said:
			
		

> Add pers visiting IOT break their horrific weeks-long fast for a day or two from the five states surrounding Georgia as well...



I read that Atlanta has the busiest passenger airport in the world.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Working from home? Household expenses may be deductable, say tax experts*
> 
> Those who have been working from home due to COVID-19 might be able to claim some of their household expenses on their income tax next year, say two tax experts.
> 
> “Non-commissioned employees can deduct a part of their cost related to the workspace at home,” said Brianne Cabanayan, tax manager with Baker Tilly Windsor LLP.
> 
> People working from home can claim a portion of their home expenses if they are using part of their house for work purposes, according to tax experts.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6841867/working-from-home-tax-deductable-expenses/


----------



## Kat Stevens

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'd guess that those other causes of death are included because Fox News and 'end-isolation' protesters are routinely saying false analogy shit like "people die of cancer and car crashes; why aren't you oppressing me because of those?"  :dunno:
> 
> You're right though, cutting the unrelated things out would provide a more striking of a visual on how serious COVID-19 could be if the curve doesn't peak soon for the US.
> 
> Of course, Georgia is opening up pretty much everything this weekend; we'll see how that inevitable spike gets explained away.  (You'll recall the Geo. governor is the one who said they "just learned" that asymptomatic people could infect others.  :facepalm: )



Governor of South Carolina has ordered all the beaches opened and retailers back to work. Myrtle Beach has told the gov to shove it.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Air Canada to temporarily suspend flights to U.S.
Airline plans to resume service when Canada-U.S. border restrictions are lifted
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-to-temporarily-suspend-flights-to-u-s-1.5539796


> CBC News · Posted: Apr 21, 2020 1:51 PM ET | Last Updated: an hour ago
> 
> Air Canada has announced it is suspending service to the United States after Canada and the U.S. agreed to extend restrictions on cross-border travel for another 30 days because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> The airline said Tuesday its last commercial flights between Canada and the U.S. will be on April 26. It plans to resume service May 22, unless government restrictions are extended again. It will waive change fees for affected customers.
> 
> Non-essential travel between Canada and the U.S. was banned as of March 21, though the border has remained open for trade and commerce, with exemptions also granted for emergency response and public health purposes.
> 
> The original border restrictions put in place a month ago were set to expire today, but the new agreement extends it until mid-May.
> 
> Air Canada said it has reduced its schedule by 90 per cent due to COVID-19, but it had continued service to 11 U.S. destinations to help repatriate Canadians over the past month.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Sitrep....


----------



## Remius

https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-record-spike-coronavirus-cases-lockdown-protests

Yeeha.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-record-spike-coronavirus-cases-lockdown-protests
> 
> Yeeha.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-record-spike-coronavirus-cases-lockdown-protests
> 
> Yeeha.



Holy smokes. The virus mutated and went from a 2 week incubation period to 2 days  :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Captain Tom Moore invited to ring Lord's bell and offer England team-talk

Captain Tom Moore has received invites from the MCC, the England cricket team and McLaren once the current coronavirus lockdown has lifted, as a result of the 99-year-old’s mammoth fundraising effort for the NHS. The second world war veteran has been asked to ring the five-minute bell at Lord’s and to visit McLaren’s Woking HQ, while England’s Test cricket captain, Joe Root, also surprised Moore with a video call, during which he invited his fellow Yorkshireman to give the side a team talk.

Moore has raised more than £27.5m for NHS Charities Together and the fight against Covid-19 by walking lengths of his garden. He could also be on his way to the top of the music charts with a recording of You’ll Never Walk Alone with Michael Ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/apr/21/nothing-would-give-me-more-pleasure-captain-moore-to-visit-mclaren-hq


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Holy smokes. The virus mutated and went from a 2 week incubation period to 2 days  :Tin-Foil-Hat:



Well it is foxnews.  They weren’t big on that whole science thing.  I’m sure Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil will explain it.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Holy smokes. The virus mutated and went from a 2 week incubation period to 2 days  :Tin-Foil-Hat:



I think you may have an incorrect understanding of what "incubation period" means in relation to Covid-19.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/assumptions.html#a2
The incubation period is up to 14 days.
Current estimates of the incubation period range from 1-14 days with median estimates of 5-6 days between infection and the onset of clinical symptoms of the disease. WHO recommends that the follow-up of contacts of confirmed cases is 14 days.


----------



## Remius

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I think you may have an incorrect understanding of what "incubation period" means in relation to Covid-19.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/assumptions.html#a2
> The incubation period is up to 14 days.
> Current estimates of the incubation period range from 1-14 days with median estimates of 5-6 days between infection and the onset of clinical symptoms of the disease. WHO recommends that the follow-up of contacts of confirmed cases is 14 days.




SCIENCE!


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The virus mutated and went from a 2 week incubation period to 2 days





			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Current estimates of the incubation period range from 1-14 days with median estimates of 5-6 days   between infection and the onset of clinical symptoms of the disease.



Looks like the protests have been going on for at least eight or nine days,



> Apr. 20th, 2020
> 
> Kentucky Reports Highest Coronavirus Infection Increase After a Week of Protests to Reopen State
> 
> https://www.newsweek.com/kentucky-reports-highest-coronavirus-infection-increase-after-week-protests-reopen-state-1498835



And no, I am not saying the spike is, or is not, linked to the protests.


----------



## FJAG

Remius said:
			
		

> Well it is foxnews.  They weren’t big on that whole science thing.  I’m sure Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil will explain it.



Kentucky doesn't need science. Things work faster there. It has the Ark and the Creation Museum. They can squeeze 13 billion years into six thousand.  https://creationmuseum.org/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I think you may have an incorrect understanding of what "incubation period" means in relation to Covid-19.



You're right! Thanks.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> I’m sure Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil will explain it.



What do you mean?


----------



## Remius

They’ve both been on fox commenting about COVID 19.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> I’m sure Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil will explain it.



In case anyone does not know who those two are,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Aw&ei=UnmfXsX3FObH_Qbb5ZrgAg&q=%22dr.+oz%22+%22dr.+phil%22&oq=%22dr.+oz%22+%22dr.+phil%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAAyBAgAEB4yBAgAEB4yBggAEAgQHjIICAAQCBAKEB4yBggAEAgQHjIFCAAQzQI6BQgAEMQCULhHWO2GAWCmpgFoA3AAeACAAYsBiAH2BZIBAzIuNZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjF6OKHzvroAhXmY98KHduyBiwQ4dUDCAs#spf=1587509610582


----------



## Jarnhamar

Dr Oz is a heart surgeon. Neat.


----------



## stellarpanther

I laughed at this post because I was watching the Nova Scotia COVID-19 briefing yesterday or the day before and one of the reports quoted something that was on the internet and also stated by Dr Oz.  The Chief Medical Officer replied not to believe everything you read on the internet and certainly don't listen to Dr Oz.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Oz and Phil both are creations of Oprah, along with giving Jenny McCarthey's anti vax lunacy a springboard, and that's pretty much all I need to know about them.


----------



## mariomike

It really hits home when it puts the the local pizza parlour out of business. 

It had been there since 1957. I've been going there all my life.

It also has a beautiful dining room. 

Another mom and pop place now taken over by a big chain. It's all over for the little guy.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> It really hits home when it puts the the local pizza parlour out of business.
> 
> It had been there since 1957. I've been going there all my life.
> 
> It also has a beautiful dining room.
> 
> Another mom and pop place now taken over by a big chain. It's all over for the little guy.



The Corvid19 virus caused a local mom and pop pizza place to close and a big chain business bought it and took it over during the pandemic?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The Corvid19 virus caused a local mom and pop pizza place to close and a big chain business bought it and took it over during the pandemic?



https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a-tribute-to-vesuvio-s-pizzeria-amp-spaghetti-house-845672866.html?fbclid=IwAR2z14F9C4l6CUg_fX-kq0ZhDEtGyyZCvPOyD_howyp37m3FtZ3ZwiaahIM


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> Another mom and pop place now taken over by a big chain. It's all over for the little guy.



Are you sure that it was taken over by "a big chain"?  The way I read it, Vesuvio's is closing but the message from Pizza Nova appears to be just a tribute.  Don't see anything about whom (if anyone) will be moving into that location.

https://www.facebook.com/Vesuvio-Pizzeria-and-Spaghetti-House-277142903489


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Are you sure that it was taken over by "a big chain"?  The way I read it, Vesuvio's is closing but the message from Pizza Nova appears to be just a tribute.  Don't see anything about whom (if anyone) will be moving into that location.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/Vesuvio-Pizzeria-and-Spaghetti-House-277142903489



Maybe it is just a tribute. I assumed it meant a takeover. If one of the big chains does not take over the location, I imagine they won't shed any tears seeing this independent finally close. It was very popular.


----------



## CBH99

If they were smart, they'd keep it open as it is.  World doesn't need another Pizza 73 beside another 7-11.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> If they were smart, they'd keep it open as it is.  World doesn't need another Pizza 73 beside another 7-11.



In quality, there was no comparison to the "chain" stuff. No advertising. Just word of mouth. It was over 3 KM from us, so we had it delivered. 



> CBC
> 
> Apr 14, 2020
> 
> Toronto pizzeria Vesuvio permanently closing after 63 years due to COVID-19
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/vesuvio-pizzeria-closure-1.5531955



In other Covid-19 news,

In third world countries, the bodies of COVID-19 victims are simply tossed into the back of a pickup truck and dropped off at the morgue. Wait. Did I say third world countries? I meant to say Philadelphia ...my bad.
https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/bodies-pick-up-truck-medical-examiner-ford-overflow-storage-20200420.html

Front page of today's NY Post attached.


----------



## dapaterson

Nashville TN protest: "Sacrifice the weak"

https://twitter.com/ConorBlenner/status/1252870171422715907


----------



## PMedMoe

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Nashville TN protest: "Sacrifice the weak"
> 
> https://twitter.com/ConorBlenner/status/1252870171422715907



I bet these are the same people who attend Pro Life rallies.   :


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I bet these are the same people who attend Pro Life rallies.   :



Yep.  And I bet that these are the same type of end of the world preppers who can’t stay at home for a month and can’t go without beauty salons, tattoos and golf.  

After this I’m sure the definition of snowflakes will be expanded.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> Yep.  And I bet that these are the same type of end of the world preppers who can’t stay at home for a month and can’t go without beauty salons, tattoos and golf.
> 
> After this I’m sure the definition of *snowflakes* will be expanded.



Or, deplorables?


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or, deplorables?



Anyone promoting society to let the weak die so they can enjoy first world amenities like golf and nail salons or going to the beach can certainly be defined as such.  

I am quite comfortable labelling them as such.  “deplorable snowflakes” has a good ring to it.


----------



## kkwd

This thread has gotten ugly. A poster sees one post and adds their own twist and says "oh yes, like those guys". It is unfair and verging on nasty. I don't know if I should be shocked or saddened when things like that are posted. But I am not surprised, people are stressed and looking for someone to vent on. I ask the question if posts like that would be tolerated on any other thread on an "ordinary" day.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Anyone promoting society to let the weak die so they can enjoy first world amenities like golf and nail salons or going to the beach can certainly be defined as such. 

Sure, pick the easy strawman.  What about the people who aren't government employees or on DB pension, who want to work, pay the rent/mortgage, not lose their businesses?  Got a scornful tone for them?


----------



## Remius

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-could-help-solve-climate-riddles1/

Interesting to see what the current pandemic will reveal about climate change and effects of pollution. 

One way or the other.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Anyone promoting society to let the weak die so they can enjoy first world amenities like golf and nail salons or going to the beach can certainly be defined as such.
> 
> Sure, pick the easy strawman.  What about the people who aren't government employees or on DB pension, who want to work, pay the rent/mortgage, not lose their businesses?  Got a scornful tone for them?



If they are saying to sacrifice the weak? Absolutely.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> And I bet that these are the same type of end of the world preppers who can’t stay at home for a month and can’t go without beauty salons, tattoos and golf.



Tattoo parlours?


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> In third world countries, the bodies of COVID-19 victims are simply tossed into the back of a pickup truck and dropped off at the morgue. Wait. Did I say third world countries? I meant to say Philadelphia ...my bad.
> https://www.inquirer.com/health/coronavirus/bodies-pick-up-truck-medical-examiner-ford-overflow-storage-20200420.html



Can't exactly hold a procession for each one. We are pretty much at the point where bodies in the back of trucks will be the norm now. Give it a few weeks and people will be desensitised. 

On the topic of "essential" businesses, it's a complete crap show and makes no sense. They don't let you go golfing or fishing alone, but picking up some "essential" lumber for the craft project at the Home Depot is fine. It’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet picking up at 24-pack at a liquor store is essential. Governments shuts down millions of private businesses but public service employees are spared. I'm less and less convinced it's about our health. Our local Crappy Tire was packed with people last weekend, no one cares anymore.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> We are pretty much at the point where bodies in the back of trucks will be the norm now.



They've been using enclosed rental vans. Read of waiting periods of up to three days on some house calls.

Using open pick-up trucks is new, as far as I can tell. Must be a sight for the kids in the neighbourhood.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> Can't exactly hold a procession for each one. We are pretty much at the point where bodies in the back of trucks will be the norm now. Give it a few weeks and people will be desensitised.
> 
> On the topic of "essential" businesses, it's a complete crap show and makes no sense. They don't let you go golfing or fishing alone, but picking up some "essential" lumber for the craft project at the Home Depot is fine. It’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet picking up at 24-pack at a liquor store is essential. Governments shuts down millions of private businesses but public service employees are spared. I'm less and less convinced it's about our health. Our local Crappy Tire was packed with people last weekend, no one cares anymore.



In our neck of the woods, people can fish, just not off any closed beach properties. River banks, lakeside away from restricted property, etc, no problem. 

I can see stores such as Home Depot, CDN Tire and such remaining open, as not all customers are picking up supplies strictly for leisure projects. (Some are, of course, but home maintenance of all types can be essential/necessary, and it’s simply not worth it for them to try and attempt any sort of screening process for why people require certain items.) Not so much understanding for, say, Bass Pro Shops—I absolutely love the store, but pretty sure there isn’t anything in there to be deemed “essential.“ (They’re closed now, but remained open at first.)

LCBO/Beer Stores—Well, the easy and cynical argument to be made here in ON is that the gov gets a big cut. But an argument could also be made that there’s a percentage of alcohol dependency cases. What’s cutting off almost their entire supply going to accomplish? That could have unnecessary ripple effects in many areas, even if only minor. But still an additional issue that can be avoided for the time being.

There are a lot of public service sectors affected with employees not working. For example, if anyone is able to get through to a provincial or federal department via phone right now, chances are you’re speaking to an agent from their home. But the reason wait times are exceedingly long (excluding $ assistance lines of varying kinds, which is obvious as to why they’re so busy) is because there are many not working as normal in any capacity, atm. 

In Ontario, the second round of “essential” business closures made more sense in terms of what remained opened. The first was questionable and far too inclusive to have really made a big difference.


----------



## PuckChaser

Looks like the CAF is being requested for 5 long term care homes in Ontario, Premier Ford announced it at his presser currently ongoing.


----------



## Weinie

Wait for it. More is likely coming.


----------



## PuckChaser

Considering outbreaks in Ontario LTC homes went from 114 to 128 even though 20 homes were removed from the outbreak list, you're probably right. Seems like we might end up with a Swedish model where the economy opens back up but vulnerable people are going to be dealing with this for a while.


----------



## Weinie

Weinie said:
			
		

> Wait for it. More is likely coming.



Quebec asks for an additional 1000 soldiers

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/covid-19-quebec-april-22-1.5540713


----------



## stellarpanther

Weinie said:
			
		

> Quebec asks for an additional 1000 soldiers
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/covid-19-quebec-april-22-1.5540713



I understand medics working in the nursing homes but what would other mbr's do?


----------



## Kat Stevens

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I understand medics working in the nursing homes but what would other mbr's do?



Bedpans and diapers don't change themselves. Good job for those icky combat arms guys.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lessons learned so far from COVID 19

By Dave Rebbitt

As a health and safety professional, I found the pandemic recently had some great learning opportunities for health and safety practitioners.

Many of these lessons revolve around risk rather than hazard and control. I have long said that it is the job of health and safety professionals to recognize and mitigate risk proactively. Identifying hazards and controlling them is a very simplistic view of the safety and health function.

That being said, risk is a subjective exercise, but it is a useful one.

Risk is emotional

Every health and safety professional has been in a risk assessment session where there were people that thought that the potential severity for everything was a fatality.

That’s often not the case, but as a health and safety professional looking at the current pandemic, we realize that the fatality rate for the virus is just under 2%, around twice that of the flu. That is half as dangerous as SARS, also a coronavirus, and showed up in 2002 – 2003. These statics may not matter much.

Dr. Peter Sandeman came up with the fourth dimension of risk many years ago. That is the emotional response to risk. As professionals we try to remain calm during a crisis and look at these things objectively. Where something could be lethal, and there are unknowns, people are far from objective and so the responses are emotional. Risk is no longer about frequency, severity, and probability, it is also about the emotional response.

In the pandemic we have seen a severe emotional response to a significant risk. A virus is invisible and can be anywhere lurking on any surface. We also still do not know a lot about this particular virus. That brings uncertainty and fear, which make the perceived risk higher than the actual risk.

https://www.thesafetymag.com/ca/news/opinion/lessons-learned-so-far-from-covid-19/220159


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:
			
		

> Quebec asks for an additional 1000 soldiers
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/covid-19-quebec-april-22-1.5540713





> "It will give us more resources to help us with non-medical tasks," Legault said at the government's daily news conference Wednesday.
> 
> Orderlies and cleaning staff are about twice as likely to catch the virus than nurses, according to Jeff Begley, president of the health and social services federation of the CSN union.





> What Do Non-Medical Caregivers Do?
> 
> The responsibilities of a non-medical caregiver include improving the quality of life for elderly clients by offering assistance or doing things they are unable to do, such as homemaking and meal preparation. As a non-medical caregiver, you may work in a household, senior home, or assisted living facility, where you run errands, clean, do laundry, and organize as requested by the client or their family. You assist with bathing, brushing teeth, and dressing. You help transfer them from their bed to a walker or wheelchair and into a vehicle. Clients who are bedridden sometimes need help re-positioning to prevent skin issues, and some exercise or stretching may be required. You do not administer medications, but your duties can include reminding clients to take it.
> https://www.ziprecruiter.com/e/What-Do-Non-Medical-Caregivers-Do


----------



## garb811

Quirky said:
			
		

> Can't exactly hold a procession for each one. We are pretty much at the point where bodies in the back of trucks will be the norm now. Give it a few weeks and people will be desensitised.
> 
> On the topic of "essential" businesses, it's a complete crap show and makes no sense. They don't let you go golfing or fishing alone, but picking up some "essential" lumber for the craft project at the Home Depot is fine. It’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet picking up at 24-pack at a liquor store is essential. Governments shuts down millions of private businesses but public service employees are spared.* I'm less and less convinced it's about our health.* Our local Crappy Tire was packed with people last weekend, no one cares anymore.


So, if you aren't convinced it's about our health, what do you think it's all about then?


----------



## Jarnhamar

garb811 said:
			
		

> So, if you aren't convinced it's about our health, what do you think it's all about then?



Curious about this too.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That’s often not the case, but as a health and safety professional looking at the current pandemic, we realize that the fatality rate for the virus is just under 2%, around twice that of the flu. That is half as dangerous as SARS, also a coronavirus, and showed up in 2002 – 2003. These statics may not matter much.
> https://www.thesafetymag.com/ca/news/opinion/lessons-learned-so-far-from-covid-19/220159





> In Canada the first case of SARS was reported on Feb. 23 and the first 10 deaths were reported on Apr. 7. The case-fatality rate on that date was 38.5%; it fell to about 20% by the end of April and stabilized at about 17% in late June.
> 
> https://www.cmaj.ca/content/169/4/277.2



I don't know anyone who survived it who was deemed medically fit to return to front-line operations. They were all re-classified as Permanently Partially Disabled ( PPD ).

With the exception of one, they were all young people.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>So, if you aren't convinced it's about our health, what do you think it's all about then?

It's "about health", certainly.  Broad isolation measures were the panicked response to an escalating situation, after the initial chorus of "not really anything to worry about" from the community of experts proved wrong.  Doing something (useful) quickly was imperative.

Highly restrictive measures will not be long endured given the relatively low impact (a highly contagious, high-fatality outbreak would be different), but did buy time to get beyond the panicked response.  So now people are - reasonably - pushing for the un-panicked response.  And that requires rationally permitting and excluding activities based on risk, rather than essential / non-essential.

"People will die!" is the cry whenever some shortfall of spending, or spending growth, is proposed.  In a strict sense, they are correct: at the margins, people will die.  As a result of a prolonged and severe economic contraction, people will die.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Quebec requests 1,000 Armed Forces members to help out in embattled seniors' homes*
> 
> 
> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-requests-1-000-armed-forces-members-to-help-out-in-embattled-seniors-homes-1.4906875
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/covid-19-quebec-april-22-1.5540713
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6851465/quebec-coronavirus-april-22/


----------



## PuckChaser

Quirky said:
			
		

> It’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet picking up at 24-pack at a liquor store is essential.



I think you underestimate the surge on the medical system of people going through alcohol withdrawal.


----------



## garb811

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >So, if you aren't convinced it's about our health, what do you think it's all about then?
> 
> It's "about health", certainly.  Broad isolation measures were the panicked response to an escalating situation, after the initial chorus of "not really anything to worry about" from the community of experts proved wrong.  Doing something (useful) quickly was imperative.
> 
> Highly restrictive measures will not be long endured given the relatively low impact (a highly contagious, high-fatality outbreak would be different), but did buy time to get beyond the panicked response.  So now people are - reasonably - pushing for the un-panicked response.  And that requires rationally permitting and excluding activities based on risk, rather than essential / non-essential.
> 
> "People will die!" is the cry whenever some shortfall of spending, or spending growth, is proposed.  In a strict sense, they are correct: at the margins, people will die.  As a result of a prolonged and severe economic contraction, people will die.


Thanks? 

I've got a pretty good understanding of your thoughts on the issue from your previous posts.  I'm actually interested about Quirky's personal reasoning behind making that specific statement.


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I think you underestimate the surge on the medical system of people going through alcohol withdrawal.



100%. Mass alcohol withdrawal would be a friggin' mess for the medical system.


----------



## Weinie

As I think about this, three C's come to mind.

First of all, as a long-time small c conservative, I am normally against any government intervention into the private sector. Many of the long term care facilities are privately run, and my (conservative) expectation is that they either provide an economic argument that works, or they die a quick business death. It is readily apparent in the current construct that in a number of cases the profit driven bottom-line has overridden any altruistic or greater societal interests in the provision of aged care; skimping on wages, the number of PSW's, provision of PPE, social distancing, isolation of those infected, and testing and reporting being but a few of the warts exposed. The current system appears to only have had lip service paid to it and is badly broken. And now governments at all levels have been forced to intervene. Previous posts on this site have pointed out what members are paying for Long Term Health Care for parents..it was both astonishing and frightening to me, and I no longer have either parent to worry about. And don't give me the supply and demand argument, I am a firm believer in free enterprise, but more about this in my third point.

Secondly, as a (self-described) compassionate person I am appalled by the attitudes of some, who see Darwinism as the natural evolution of covid-19, and thus are not concerned or perturbed about the ravages of the virus amongst the elderly. These people who are so callously being discarded are the same people who have contributed for the last *half-century or more* to building this country; raising families, contributing to the public fabric and discourse, serving members, economic contributors, entrepreneurs, taxpayers, your neighbours, friends, parents, and grandparents. Lest we forget and %$^& your selfishness or narcissism. 

Finally, my third c is collateral and 2nd and 3rd order effects. At the end of this, or at least the mitigation, there *will* be a reckoning, and it will be ugly. Blame will be apportioned at many levels; the wilful blindness that covid-19 has exposed in the long term health care_* industry*_, (and I use the term in its' most derogative aspect), and will be both correct and deserved. We have cast many of the elderly onto the proverbial "economic ice floe" and allowed business models to determine their futures. It is a shameful reckoning.

To any on this forum who have family in Long Term Care, my hopes are that you are not facing the situations that I have described above. If you are, my condolences and I urge you to work to change the future construct


----------



## stellarpanther

Quirky said:
			
		

> It’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet picking up at 24-pack at a liquor store is essential. Governments shuts down millions of private businesses but public service employees are spared. I'm less and less convinced it's about our health. Our local Crappy Tire was packed with people last weekend, no one cares anymore.



The doctors are doing some of this themselves, I was going to chiropractor for a couple weeks before this started and then told they were closing.  Out of the blue yesterday, I received an email asking how my back was an if I wanted an adjustment, which I said yes.  My mother who has had several pre-cancerous polyps originally had her screening cancelled but she was able to reach the doctor directly and had it done last week.  My father who recently had what we think was successful cancer surgery and was supposed to go back next week to make sure they got all of it and nothing grew back was told no because it needs to be done at a the hospital.  The doctor says the hospital won't allow it but the hospital is saying it's the doctor who won't do it.  It's all ridiculous. This virus is serious and needs to continue to be treated that way but how many people are going to die from otherwise preventable conditions.


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> To any on this forum who have family in Long Term Care, my hopes are that you are not facing the situations that I have described above. If you are, my condolences and I urge you to work to change the future construct



My parent is in a seniors residence which offers scalable support and care.  The residence (part of the Revera chain) has been proactive throughout in taking precautions and has communicated well with families and residents; the biggest problem my siblings and I have encountered is our parent tiring of restrictions and tries to find ways around the rules because "they know better" (sort of like having a teenager in the house).  Well run facilities, with medical professionals on site and in senior management, seem to have been able to manage better than others - both in initial avoidance, and (if something happens) in containment.


----------



## Weinie

Good to hear. That approach seems to be in the minority in some provinces, but is reassuring nonetheless. There will be good guys and bad guys as a result of this.


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:
			
		

> Good to hear. That approach seems to be in the minority in some provinces, but is reassuring nonetheless. There will be good guys and bad guys as a result of this.



After doing a bit of research, I discovered that Revera is fully owned by... the Public Sector Pension investment board.  In other words, the Federal public service, RCMP and CAF pension plans own that set of retirement residences.


----------



## FJAG

Weinie said:
			
		

> As I think about this, three C's come to mind.
> 
> ....
> To any on this forum who have family in Long Term Care, my hopes are that you are not facing the situations that I have described above. If you are, my condolences and I urge you to work to change the future construct



A couple of decades ago I was an appointee to the Manitoba Health Appeal Board whose mandate reads like this:



> an independent body established by The Health Services Insurance Act. Sections 9, 10, 57(4), 58, 61, 71 and 127(1) of the Act specifically refer to the Board.
> 
> The Chairperson and members of the Board are appointed by the Legislature and are not employees or officials of Manitoba Health, Seniors and Active Living.   The Board is responsible for making decisions on appeals under The Health Services Insurance Act and its regulations, The Emergency Medical Response and Stretcher Transportation Act and the Charges Payable by Long Term Patients Regulations 155/97 under The Mental Health Act.



Much of that work, in fact, the vast bulk of that work, involved rate appeals respecting long term care homes which are statutorily set in Manitoba and very much income dependent. I'm not sure if Ontario and Quebec are as controlled in what can be charged as Manitoba.

While the fact was that we were clearly an "independent body" our powers were so narrow so as to be virtually devoid of any discretionary decision making. In effect most of our work involved reviewing and, more often than not, ratifying the decisions by the civil servants or staff who originally made them.

A long-term care facility is very much a business that has to show a yearly profit if it is to continue on. Like most enterprises that deal directly with the public, especially a vulnerable public, the quality of the service often depends much more on the front line care workers and any government inspectors that may review that standard of care than the business entities that run them. There are good ones who want to make a difference, ones who are just putting in their time, and ones who simply look to the profit margins. Knowing which is which does get around the "family web" fairly quickly but spaces are so limited that moving a family member from a poor facility into a better one is often a very difficult and lengthy process.

 :cheers:


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> To any on this forum who have family in Long Term Care, my hopes are that you are not facing the situations that I have described above. If you are, my condolences and I urge you to work to change the future construct



We lost a relative yesterday.  She was a long term care facility that was privately run.  She was 96 and in relatively good health until this hit.  It took 5 days from being diagnosed to her death.   She worked in war munitions factory. Started her own business and employed dozens of people in the 50s when that wasn’t something women should do.  Had a huge family and huge impact on her and her extended family.  

So yeah, when people say sacrifice the weak and let nature take it’s course these are the types of people we are talking about.  The family should have been with her when she passed but couldn’t.  Not the way she deserved to go. 7 residents and 7 staff infected. 

I have an uncle who is in his early 60s fighting for his life in an ICU. 

My father in law is in a very good long term care.  Not for profit and run by the St. Patrick society I believe.  No cases and locked down tight. Clean, good staff, awesome facilities.  We had to fight to get him placed there.  

But with his advanced Parkinson’s and related issues Covid will kill him.  

These are the people that some would be willing to sacrifice because they can’t follow a few months of hardship.  So yes I hold them in complete derision and contempt. 

Jobs will be lost but we can recover from that.  Some lives will never be recovered from this.


Well said Weinie.


----------



## Weinie

Sorry about your loss, and hope and best wishes for your other family members.


----------



## suffolkowner

Remius said:
			
		

> We lost a relative yesterday.  She was a long term care facility that was privately run.  She was 96 and in relatively good health until this hit.  It took 5 days from being diagnosed to her death.   She worked in war munitions factory. Started her own business and employed dozens of people in the 50s when that wasn’t something women should do.  Had a huge family and huge impact on her and her extended family.
> 
> So yeah, when people say sacrifice the weak and let nature take it’s course these are the types of people we are talking about.  The family should have been with her when she passed but couldn’t.  Not the way she deserved to go. 7 residents and 7 staff infected.
> 
> I have an uncle who is in his early 60s fighting for his life in an ICU.
> 
> My father in law is in a very good long term care.  Not for profit and run by the St. Patrick society I believe.  No cases and locked down tight. Clean, good staff, awesome facilities.  We had to fight to get him placed there.
> 
> But with his advanced Parkinson’s and related issues Covid will kill him.
> 
> These are the people that some would be willing to sacrifice because they can’t follow a few months of hardship.  So yes I hold them in complete derision and contempt.
> 
> Jobs will be lost but we can recover from that.  Some lives will never be recovered from this.
> 
> 
> Well said Weinie.



I'm sorry for your loss. We will be burying my mother next week, although there has been no indication that her death was Covid-19 related. I can tell you that all the children and grandchildren are working on DNR and non-intubation documentation. On the cost of care the costs went from $2200 to $3300 to $6600 and then back down to $3500 once a placement opened up in a non-profit nursing home. I can tell you that it was hard to see the value in the $6600, but at that time there was no alternative


----------



## Remius

Not an easy time for any of that.

Weinie and sufflokowner.  Thanks.  And my condolences as well.


----------



## Quirky

garb811 said:
			
		

> So, if you aren't convinced it's about our health, what do you think it's all about then?



The deaths and misery caused by artificially creating a great depression would absolutely dwarf anything caused by Rona. Lockdowns are being imposed by panicky, dictatorial politicians in extreme dosages that may well prove a total collapse of the global economy. Hungarian prime minister used the crisis to win emergency powers to rule by degree, send parliament home, cancel elections, and jail individuals for up to five years for spreading “fake news”. In Britain and Canada as well, neighbours are reporting neighbours to the police for jogging and hiking, which violate lock down restrictions, 1984 anyone? We are being urged by governments and the media to “trust the experts” – that is, public health officials. Experts can also suffer from tunnel vision, though they know their own specialities, they may fail to look at the larger contexts, consequences, or costs of their actions. There are "experts" on both sides of coin who are either pro or against these measures, governments are trusting the ones who fit their narrative. 

It is beyond completely outrageous what we are doing, I feel like most of our world has become completely retarded. I said this 50 pages ago, we're going to do more damage than we are preventing, from missed healthcare appointments for chemo to a huge spike in domestic violence reports. The list goes on and on. Yes, the virus is real and I would bet the transmission is bigger than we think, but the death rate is much, much lower. We're closing down society because we're afraid of shadows and everyone is afraid of dying. The closure of schools, universities, theatres, libraries, restaurants, offices, churches, parks, all public meetings, and all “nonessential” businesses, go farther than any totalitarian regime in history. We’re likely witnessing a transformation in the fabric of western civilisation, one that is much more authoritative and much less free, many rights and liberties which we’ve been accustomed to having will be gone and won’t be coming back. Most people are scared cowards which is why they're complying, we're too paralysed to even realise that in the 100 years we’ve had multiple world wars and multiple serious sicknesses and we never shut down life like this.

We aren't getting a vaccine anytime soon and lockdowns aren't the answer, the virus is here to stay and we will have to live with it. Learn to live with it by testing, tracing, isolating and protecting (the vulnerable).


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:
			
		

> The deaths and misery caused by artificially creating a great depression would absolutely dwarf anything caused by Rona. Lockdowns are being imposed by panicky, dictatorial politicians in extreme dosages that may well prove a total collapse of the global economy. Hungarian prime minister used the crisis to win emergency powers to rule by degree, send parliament home, cancel elections, and jail individuals for up to five years for spreading “fake news”. In Britain and Canada as well, neighbours are reporting neighbours to the police for jogging and hiking, which violate lock down restrictions, 1984 anyone? We are being urged by governments and the media to “trust the experts” – that is, public health officials. Experts can also suffer from tunnel vision, though they know their own specialities, they may fail to look at the larger contexts, consequences, or costs of their actions. There are "experts" on both sides of coin who are either pro or against these measures, governments are trusting the ones who fit their narrative.
> 
> It is beyond completely outrageous what we are doing, I feel like most of our world has become completely retarded. I said this 50 pages ago, we're going to do more damage than we are preventing, from missed healthcare appointments for chemo to a huge spike in domestic violence reports. The list goes on and on. Yes, the virus is real and I would bet the transmission is bigger than we think, but the death rate is much, much lower. We're closing down society because we're afraid of shadows and everyone is afraid of dying. The closure of schools, universities, theatres, libraries, restaurants, offices, churches, parks, all public meetings, and all “nonessential” businesses, go farther than any totalitarian regime in history. We’re likely witnessing a transformation in the fabric of western civilisation, one that is much more authoritative and much less free, many rights and liberties which we’ve been accustomed to having will be gone and won’t be coming back. Most people are scared cowards which is why they're complying, we're too paralysed to even realise that in the 100 years we’ve had multiple world wars and multiple serious sicknesses and we never shut down life like this.
> 
> We aren't getting a vaccine anytime soon and lockdowns aren't the answer, the virus is here to stay and we will have to live with it. Learn to live with it by testing, tracing, isolating and protecting (the vulnerable).



In terms of the Canadian experience, where are "lock down restrictions" in place?  Perhaps other provinces - I haven't been following it that closely - but certainly not in Ontario.  People complain about a lot of things - doesn't make them illegal.

Having public health experts as part of the public face of the government response poses a bit of conundrum.  One one hand, they are the subject matter experts and people want to hear from them; we give more credibility on medical matters to them than politicians.  On the other, they are not accountable for implementing government policy - that is the job of elected officials.  We, the public, can directly hold elected officials to account, not their employees.  In my view, when it comes to the topic of imposing or easing restrictions, time lines, etc. at the various press conferences and interviews, I would prefer they defer questions like than to their bosses to whom their provide their expert advice.  Of course, this would not impact other health professional that the media seeks out.


----------



## lenaitch

Remius said:
			
		

> We lost a relative yesterday.  She was a long term care facility that was privately run.  She was 96 and in relatively good health until this hit.  It took 5 days from being diagnosed to her death.   She worked in war munitions factory. Started her own business and employed dozens of people in the 50s when that wasn%u2019t something women should do.  Had a huge family and huge impact on her and her extended family.
> 
> So yeah, when people say sacrifice the weak and let nature take it%u2019s course these are the types of people we are talking about.  The family should have been with her when she passed but couldn%u2019t.  Not the way she deserved to go. 7 residents and 7 staff infected.
> 
> I have an uncle who is in his early 60s fighting for his life in an ICU.
> 
> My father in law is in a very good long term care.  Not for profit and run by the St. Patrick society I believe.  No cases and locked down tight. Clean, good staff, awesome facilities.  We had to fight to get him placed there.
> 
> But with his advanced Parkinson%u2019s and related issues Covid will kill him.
> 
> These are the people that some would be willing to sacrifice because they can%u2019t follow a few months of hardship.  So yes I hold them in complete derision and contempt.
> 
> Jobs will be lost but we can recover from that.  Some lives will never be recovered from this.
> 
> 
> Well said Weinie.



Sorry for the loss that you and your family are going through.

My father-in-law is in the Sunnybrook Veteran Centre.  So far they have had two cases; one recovered and one died of non-Covid causes in a population of roughly 400.  The Center enjoys medical and support staffing that a normal long-term care facility could only dream of, and they are excellent with family communications.  Having said that, they arewell aware that the virus would run through the place like wildfire.  The average age and level of vulnerability is much higher than most LTC facilities.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> The deaths and misery caused by artificially creating a great depression would absolutely dwarf anything caused by Rona. Lockdowns are being imposed by panicky, dictatorial politicians in extreme dosages that may well prove a total collapse of the global economy. Hungarian prime minister used the crisis to win emergency powers to rule by degree, send parliament home, cancel elections, and jail individuals for up to five years for spreading “fake news”. In Britain and Canada as well, neighbours are reporting neighbours to the police for jogging and hiking, which violate lock down restrictions, 1984 anyone? We are being urged by governments and the media to “trust the experts” – that is, public health officials. Experts can also suffer from tunnel vision, though they know their own specialities, they may fail to look at the larger contexts, consequences, or costs of their actions. There are "experts" on both sides of coin who are either pro or against these measures, governments are trusting the ones who fit their narrative.
> 
> It is beyond completely outrageous what we are doing, I feel like most of our world has become completely retarded. I said this 50 pages ago, we're going to do more damage than we are preventing, from missed healthcare appointments for chemo to a huge spike in domestic violence reports. The list goes on and on. Yes, the virus is real and I would bet the transmission is bigger than we think, but the death rate is much, much lower. We're closing down society because we're afraid of shadows and everyone is afraid of dying. The closure of schools, universities, theatres, libraries, restaurants, offices, churches, parks, all public meetings, and all “nonessential” businesses, go farther than any totalitarian regime in history. We’re likely witnessing a transformation in the fabric of western civilisation, one that is much more authoritative and much less free, many rights and liberties which we’ve been accustomed to having will be gone and won’t be coming back. Most people are scared cowards which is why they're complying, we're too paralysed to even realise that in the 100 years we’ve had multiple world wars and multiple serious sicknesses and we never shut down life like this.
> 
> We aren't getting a vaccine anytime soon and lockdowns aren't the answer, the virus is here to stay and we will have to live with it. Learn to live with it by testing, tracing, isolating and protecting (the vulnerable).



My mother has cancer and not once has she been forced to, or had to cancel/postpone a treatment. And Ontario’s cases are far, far greater than yours.

Keep in mind things wouldn’t have even had to get to the point they are now if people could follow friggin’ rules for more than 10 seconds, cooperate and refrain from thinking they’re some special case. 

There’s no doubt that our economy is going to take a hit. But if you’re of the camp that there’s some grand conspiracy of the government wanting to take control of every ounce of our lives at every turn just because you’re feeling inconvenienced (just like the rest of us) then maybe grab a placard and protest in front of your Premier’s house. I think I’ve heard of some similar style behaviour from somewhere...

We’re behind Europe et al by at least 4-6 weeks. Eventually, things will start to ease. Maybe not as fast as you, or a few others would like, but it’ll happen. Everything is up in the air atm, but I can’t remotely get behind the thoughts you’ve expressed.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:
			
		

> The deaths and misery caused by artificially creating a great depression would absolutely dwarf anything caused by Rona. Lockdowns are being imposed by panicky, dictatorial politicians in extreme dosages that may well prove a total collapse of the global economy. Hungarian prime minister used the crisis to win emergency powers to rule by degree, send parliament home, cancel elections, and jail individuals for up to five years for spreading %u201Cfake news%u201D. In Britain and Canada as well, neighbours are reporting neighbours to the police for jogging and hiking, which violate lock down restrictions, 1984 anyone? We are being urged by governments and the media to %u201Ctrust the experts%u201D %u2013 that is, public health officials. Experts can also suffer from tunnel vision, though they know their own specialities, they may fail to look at the larger contexts, consequences, or costs of their actions. There are "experts" on both sides of coin who are either pro or against these measures, governments are trusting the ones who fit their narrative.
> 
> It is beyond completely outrageous what we are doing, I feel like most of our world has become completely retarded. I said this 50 pages ago, we're going to do more damage than we are preventing, from missed healthcare appointments for chemo to a huge spike in domestic violence reports. The list goes on and on. Yes, the virus is real and I would bet the transmission is bigger than we think, but the death rate is much, much lower. We're closing down society because we're afraid of shadows and everyone is afraid of dying. The closure of schools, universities, theatres, libraries, restaurants, offices, churches, parks, all public meetings, and all %u201Cnonessential%u201D businesses, go farther than any totalitarian regime in history. We%u2019re likely witnessing a transformation in the fabric of western civilisation, one that is much more authoritative and much less free, many rights and liberties which we%u2019ve been accustomed to having will be gone and won%u2019t be coming back. Most people are scared cowards which is why they're complying, we're too paralysed to even realise that in the 100 years we%u2019ve had multiple world wars and multiple serious sicknesses and we never shut down life like this.
> 
> We aren't getting a vaccine anytime soon and lockdowns aren't the answer, the virus is here to stay and we will have to live with it. Learn to live with it by testing, tracing, isolating and protecting (the vulnerable).



So short term pain outweighs long term gain? Hope your parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, and elderly neighbours agree. 

No one knows what the long term economic impacts will be. Magic 8 ball it. We can have a discussion in a few years on this forum, and one of us will owe the other an apology. Will Canadian society be different than pre covid-19.....undoubtedly. Will we suffer a degradation in our standard of living...yeah probably. But economies are elastic, and supply and demand will soon re-constitute what is necessary and required, you can spout "woe is us" til the cows come home, methinks it is more whining about how your life has been disrupted, and proves your own narcissism. Sorry you can't go mountain biking. I would rather be poorer economically, and have a treasured loved one still here, as opposed to espousing economics Trumps all. BTW, Rona is not responsible for this crisis, and remains open for business.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Weinie said:
			
		

> ...BTW, Rona is not responsible for this crisis, and remains open for business.



I was thinking the same thing... :rofl:

...Although it’s closed here.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I suppose conditions vary by province, but here in BC, we are certainly not "locked down".  For example, gardening supplies were deemed "essential".  I know a person who got chemo; I know a person who had routine screening postponed; urgency clearly is considered.  People might be snitching about things that are, or that they (mistakenly) believe should be, restricted, but the government so far has decided to take a permissive approach as long as the line-crossing is reasonable and responsibly done.  And the public health outcomes of those policies seem to be favourable.

Unfortunately, things got the way they are now because of the decisions taken in the earliest weeks, which had the greatest impact.  And the overall mood then was permissive, among both the "experts" and the "politicians".

It's easy and reasonable to dismiss protestors who are merely inconvenienced, but the protests of those without work must be addressed.  People are letting their anger at the former obscure the requirement to mitigate the real problems.

There is going to be tension between the people who have been pushing assisted dying and arguing for a reduction of expenditure of medical resources on the very elderly, and the people arguing for improved non-medical care.  No part of it is inexpensive.


----------



## Infanteer

Brad is right.  We are not "locked down" - we can leave our houses when we want to, stores are open, and folks can go for walks and stay busy.  However, the economy is definitely running at a reduced level, and it is not sustainable for either those who work, those who own businesses, or governments that need to collect taxes.  This thread is suffering from a bit of dichotomous thinking, and folks are taking some statements too personally.  I don't think anyone here wants to leave the vulnerable to the wolves, but at the same time, I don't think anybody here wants to risk severe irrevocable economic harm, especially if it isn't necessary.

My feeling right now is that our politicians took steps to deal with a crisis and mitigated the worst effects - they are not dictatorial politicians acting cluelessly, they were working with what they knew at the time.  One only has to look at the death rate/100,000 people in Canada and compare it to other places to see that some short term pain saved lives.  Was our response perfect?  No, but it was probably "good enough," and we should be thankful for that.

Right now, in my view, the number one job of governments (federal and provincial) should be to find the "decision point" to get people back to work.  This doesn't mean saying "game on" and just going back to _status quo ante pandemic_, but rather instituting a phased approach to resuming economic and social functioning across the country.  Simply sitting around under the current measures with the hope for a vaccine is not a solution.  We've prevented the dam from bursting, now lets get the water level down.

Sweden presents an interesting case study - they've instituted some measures, but left much of their economy and education system open.  They are suffering a higher per capita death rate (which could be from a multitude of factors), but the curve there appears to be peaking without the carnage seen in other countries.  Sweden could offer a case study of how effective protective behaviour provides enough of an effect on the R0 factor to keep the pandemic manageable.

There is also the reality that COVID-19 isn't going anywhere, especially considering a vaccine isn't a sure-fire thing, so some sort of herd immunity effect will help make the pandemic more manageable.  This isn't to say we all needlessly expose ourselves, but there is a bit of inevitability to this and the idea of building herd immunity at a sustainable pace is important.  Will some people die and some people need to be hospitalized?  Yes.  But that is the nature of living in a pandemic.  We can't completely hide from this reality.

I see a plan to phase in economic activity needing to occur sooner rather than later, but that the decision point should rest on a few factors:

1.  I assume that reopening is backed with an ability to conduct quick, mass testing as seen in South Korea.  Where are we on this?  Science and history tell us that there will be new flare ups once people get moving again (the second wave of Spanish Flu killed more people than the first wave).  Do we have the capability to quickly test and conduct contact tracing to smother outbreaks when they inevitably occur?

2.  I assume that reopening comes with the rejoinder to maintain protective behaviours as we go about our business.  Reopening most commercial outlets is probably relatively safe (we've been going to the grocery store and Rona for the last 5 weeks and things haven't fallen apart), but mass events like sports games are probably still too risky.

3.  I assume that reopening includes measures to maintain protection for the vulnerable.  We need to reopen in a way that still allows us to "lock down" vulnerable populations, allow specific individuals to work from home/stay on EI, etc, etc so that they aren't needlessly exposed.

4.  I assume that the 5 weeks of measures has allowed us to preserve our health care system (saving it from getting swamped) and to build capacity of essential material such as bed spaces, ventilators, PPE, etc.  Before reopening, we need to be sure that our capacity is strong enough to handle the inevitable rise in infections.

So, as a citizen, I'm looking at my government to tell me when the decision point to resume economic activity is and how it is supported by our ability to test/trace to stamp out flareups, to maintain messaging on protective behaviours, to keep vulnerable populations protected, and to maintain enough capacity in our health care system.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Angus Reid results as of 20 April: relaxing now is too soon...


COVID-19 & return to normal: when restrictions lift, most would wait at least two weeks before resuming routines

April 20, 2020 – As debates simmer over how to continue to squash the spread of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 without completely depriving the economy of oxygen, most Canadians are girding themselves up for at least another four to eight weeks of social distancing – if not longer.

The latest public opinion survey from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute finds Canadians have a palpable sense of apprehension at the prospect of their own provincial governments lifting the restrictions that have all but ended most public contact over the last six weeks. Indeed, three-quarters (77%) say it is too soon to begin relaxing social distancing requirements and business closures.

And while a significant segment of Canadians (39%) say both the impacts of the shutdown on the protection of public safety and on businesses and the economy should carry equal weight with policy makers, the tilt towards erring on the side of reducing infection risk remains (52% would give this factor the most weight). As well, majorities in each part of the country say their own province should lift restrictions either between one to two months from now (46%) or three to six months from now (28%).

Further, the prospect of an officially sanctioned relaxing of distancing rules would prompt very few Canadians to resume former routines immediately. Most say they would wait, for a couple of weeks, or until the number of new COVID-19 known cases in their provinces had declined significantly, before ending self-isolation.

More Key Findings:covid-19 canada return

•Nearly half of Canadians (46%) say restrictions in their own province should lift sometime in May or June, with another 28 per cent saying that they should stay in place until between July and October

•Concern about personally contracting the virus has fallen for the first time since early March, dropping from 73 per cent two weeks ago to 61 per cent. Canadians are primarily concerned about spreading the virus to others (70%) rather than becoming sick themselves (30%)

•Two-thirds of Canadians (67%) say that the federal government has done a good job of handling the COVID-19 outbreak. Slightly fewer, but still a majority (62%) say this of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau

http://angusreid.org/covid19-return-to-normal/


----------



## garb811

Quirky said:
			
		

> The deaths and misery caused by artificially creating a great depression would absolutely dwarf anything caused by Rona. Lockdowns are being imposed by panicky, dictatorial politicians in extreme dosages that may well prove a total collapse of the global economy. Hungarian prime minister used the crisis to win emergency powers to rule by degree, send parliament home, cancel elections, and jail individuals for up to five years for spreading “fake news”. In Britain and Canada as well, neighbours are reporting neighbours to the police for jogging and hiking, which violate lock down restrictions, 1984 anyone? We are being urged by governments and the media to “trust the experts” – that is, public health officials. Experts can also suffer from tunnel vision, though they know their own specialities, they may fail to look at the larger contexts, consequences, or costs of their actions. There are "experts" on both sides of coin who are either pro or against these measures, governments are trusting the ones who fit their narrative.
> 
> It is beyond completely outrageous what we are doing, I feel like most of our world has become completely retarded. I said this 50 pages ago, we're going to do more damage than we are preventing, from missed healthcare appointments for chemo to a huge spike in domestic violence reports. The list goes on and on. Yes, the virus is real and I would bet the transmission is bigger than we think, but the death rate is much, much lower. We're closing down society because we're afraid of shadows and everyone is afraid of dying. The closure of schools, universities, theatres, libraries, restaurants, offices, churches, parks, all public meetings, and all “nonessential” businesses, go farther than any totalitarian regime in history. We’re likely witnessing a transformation in the fabric of western civilisation, one that is much more authoritative and much less free, many rights and liberties which we’ve been accustomed to having will be gone and won’t be coming back. Most people are scared cowards which is why they're complying, we're too paralysed to even realise that in the 100 years we’ve had multiple world wars and multiple serious sicknesses and we never shut down life like this.
> 
> We aren't getting a vaccine anytime soon and lockdowns aren't the answer, the virus is here to stay and we will have to live with it. Learn to live with it by testing, tracing, isolating and protecting (the vulnerable).


I'd rather a controlled "lockdown", as you term it, which has the intent of preserving the provision of the essential goods and services upon which we rely to survive as opposed to everything collapsing in an uncontrolled fashion. People panicked when they thought there was going to be a toilet paper shortage, what's the impact going to be if people really can't get the basic foodstuffs and services they need to survive for days, or weeks, at a time? 

Don't believe it's a possibility?  Canada lost 1/3 of its capacity to process beef when Cargill had to shut down in High River, AB, because enough workers became infected, with the current measures in place. There are only two other facilities which have the ability to mass process beef, the other one of those in AB currently has 96 cases, what happens if it has to shut down as well? What is the consequence when that starts happening to refineries, power generation facilities, banks, telephone and internet providers, grocery stores, pharmacies because these measures weren't in place and one person cross-infects an entire facility? 

I think we are eventually going to end up where you are suggesting, but we are still a ways off from being able to do that in a way that has enough capacity to make it effective. Singapore is a cautionary tale in what can happen even when you think things are under control...


----------



## mariomike

1 ) Because Coronavirus wasn't already bad enough,
https://cnn.com/2020/04/22/health/strokes-coronavirus-young-adults/index.html …
COVID-19 causes sudden strokes in young adults - Doctors


2 ) Awww, come on Wisconsin!

If first responders contract COVID-19 on the job, they have to prove what call they got it from to access the benefits. Yes, they need to prove what call they got sick on. Thanks for the support Wisconsin.
https://www.tmj4.com/rebound/coronavirus-investigations/state-covid-19-relief-package-makes-workers-comp-harder-to-get-for-first-responders


----------



## daftandbarmy

How  COVID 19 could reshape the Federal Public Service

From embracing remote work to connecting with citizens online, the COVID-19 pandemic could give the public service the modernizing jolt it needs.

The COVID-19 pandemic has handed the public service a grand-scale opportunity to experiment with new ways of operating, including rethinking the need for massive office buildings in Ottawa-Gatineau and embracing digital government more fully. What public servants learn in the next few months by working remotely and in crisis could jolt the bureaucracy into a re-ordering of practices and culture that reformers haven’t been able to do in 25 years.

Public servants rapidly mobilized over the past month to implement a massive financial aid package, abandoning play-it-safe and rules-bound processes to put the needs of Canadians first as they doled out billions in emergency funding.

“It’s not that the crisis is forcing us to reshape the public service, but the post-pandemic world could be the window of opportunity, or necessity, to accelerate the renewal and reforms in institutions,” former privy council clerk Michael Wernick said in an interview.

Alex Benay, the former chief information officer who led the government’s digital agenda until he left for the private sector, wrote the crisis unleashed a “new norm,” the “digital first” government he’s long pressed for.
“Sadly, it took COVID-19 for people to realize that the real problem was not technology, not necessarily the culture…The real ‘enemy,’ so to speak, has been the operating model of government has yet to change to adjust to the new digital realities,” Benay wrote in a recent LinkedIn post.
Crises sparks change, but not always lasting change

It’s not the first time the public service has roared into action to combat a crisis. Its rapid response was reminiscent of the moves it made during the “program review” budgetary cuts of the 1990s, after the 9/11 attacks, and during the 2008-09 financial crisis, which had lasting impacts on government.

These events didn’t, however, fundamentally change the culture of the public service and many argue it went back to its old risk-averse and hierarchical ways as the crisis receded. That culture is hard-wired into public service, built on rules developed to keep governments accountable for the decisions they make with taxpayers’ money.

The public service has been slow to embrace technology that’s changing the private sector at breakneck speed. Bureaucrats have been pushed to innovate, to use digital tools to rethink how they work and deliver services, to take risks, and even to fail as they experiment with new ways of working.

Mel Cappe, who was Canada’s top bureaucrat in the aftermath of 9/11, said today’s public servants rightly opted to get emergency aid out to those who needed it over a “bullet-proof system” that ensured no mistakes at the front-end. The thinking was that errors could be fixed later.

It allowed the public service to take just two weeks to distribute employment insurance payments to 2.4 million applicants, the number it normally handles in a year. Money “going to people undeserving is an error I would rather have than depriving people of the money they need in crisis,” Cappe said in a podcast.

“Work will change and services will change. Why does a call centre have to have a building?” he said in an email. “Our expectations of the role of government have increased dramatically. New programs, new services, new bodies. But we have no idea what or how.”
A smaller, more distributed public service?

Long before the pandemic struck, questions had been raised as to why nearly 42 percent of federal workers are clustered in office towers in the National Capital Region. In the blink of an eye, thousands of bureaucrats are working from home. Many predict it won’t be long before politicians will be asking why these home offices are in the nation’s capital. Why can’t those jobs be across the country?

The public service’s headquarters is in Ottawa-Gatineau – where it occupies about 3.5 million square metres of office space – because that’s where Parliament, ministers and deputy ministers are. The pandemic shows cabinet, Parliament and MPs can meet virtually, so it’s “inevitable there will be push to spread those jobs across the country,” said Wernick

“I think that 10 years from now the public service will be much smaller, more distributed, less concentrated in Ottawa and flatter in hierarchy. It’s been moving in that direction and this will accelerate it,” he said.


https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/april-2020/how-covid-19-could-reshape-the-federal-public-service/


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Weinie said:
			
		

> First of all, as a long-time small c conservative, I am normally against any government intervention into the private sector. Many of the long term care facilities are privately run, and my (conservative) expectation is that they either provide an economic argument that works, or they die a quick business death. It is readily apparent in the current construct that in a number of cases the profit driven bottom-line has overridden any altruistic or greater societal interests in the provision of aged care; skimping on wages, the number of PSW's, provision of PPE, social distancing, isolation of those infected, and testing and reporting being but a few of the warts exposed. The current system appears to only have had lip service paid to it and is badly broken. And now governments at all levels have been forced to intervene. Previous posts on this site have pointed out what members are paying for Long Term Health Care for parents..it was both astonishing and frightening to me, and I no longer have either parent to worry about. And don't give me the supply and demand argument, I am a firm believer in free enterprise, but more about this in my third point.



I'm not sure what your proposed solution is though ... government mandated minimum wages for people in care homes? Price fixing on how much it costs to place an elderly person in a care home? I see such cures as being worse than the disease. I think it could cause and even worse situation.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> Secondly, as a (self-described) compassionate person I am appalled by the attitudes of some, who see Darwinism as the natural evolution of covid-19, and thus are not concerned or perturbed about the ravages of the virus amongst the elderly. These people who are so callously being discarded are the same people who have contributed for the last *half-century or more* to building this country; raising families, contributing to the public fabric and discourse, serving members, economic contributors, entrepreneurs, taxpayers, your neighbours, friends, parents, and grandparents. Lest we forget and %$^& your selfishness or narcissism.



This may not necessarily be the case with you personally, but I find that the reaction of many people whenever alternate concerns are pointed out (like how many will die due to the economic impact of the incoming depression caused by the lockdowns) is that they are callous and don't care about the elderly.

It's not that I don't care about the elderly. I have elderly relatives with health issues and I don't _want_ them to die. However,  I am also gravely concerned and frankly angered by how my own childrens' future is being destroyed. My children are having their childhood and their futures taken away from them. So I guess on the flip side I would say why is there such callous disregard for our childrens' future? Don't they deserve to have three square meals a day and a roof over their head growing up? How does that happen when the economy completely self-destructs over this?


----------



## dapaterson

Benay bailed on the public service due to being responsible for design and implementation for a replacement of the Phoenix pay system.  When deadlines approached, he was back out to industry, ready to leverage his new contacts for contracts.

Wernick provided top cover for the failed organizational culture and outright incompetence that resulted in the Phoenix pay system.


You'll forgive me if I take their pronouncements with a small bit of cynicism.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

lenaitch said:
			
		

> In terms of the Canadian experience, where are "lock down restrictions" in place?  Perhaps other provinces - I haven't been following it that closely - but certainly not in Ontario.  People complain about a lot of things - doesn't make them illegal.



No lockdowns in Ontario? I couldn't even go to Church on Easter, and that was a significant "lock down restriction" in my view. I know a lot of people consider religious worship to be superstitious nonsense but it is important to many of us. 

But I think Quirky's main point was the economic lockdown. I don't care so much about not being allowed to go to a public park, what I do care about is it suddenly becoming illegal to provide for my family since I don't work in an "essential service".  Well, actually, ironically my job (criminal defence lawyer) has been deemed essential, yet the Law Courts have been shut down so indirectly I've had my ability to earn a living shut down. Many many people in Ontario have had their livelihoods taken away and their businesses forcibly closed. I call that a "lock down restriction" and we are in the "calm before the storm" on the impact these restrictions are going to have. Sure, right now it doesn't look so bad, most people can collect CERB, mortgage payments are being waived, etc. ... but this is not going to last forever. Many of the businesses that have been shut down (especially the small ones) will never open again. I think Quirky is spot-on with how destructive the economic fallout of this is going to be. It will make COVID-19 look like absolutely nothing compared to the years and years of misery and suffering we are going to see as a result of the economic catastrophe that is being created by these lockdowns.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Remius said:
			
		

> These are the people that some would be willing to sacrifice because they can’t follow a few months of hardship.  So yes I hold them in complete derision and contempt.
> 
> Jobs will be lost but we can recover from that.  Some lives will never be recovered from this.



I am sorry for your loss, legitimately I am ... I have a grandmother in long-term care, I don't want her to die either.

But I also have children, and I see what is unfolding and how this is going to destroy their quality of life. This isn't about merely "a few months of hardship". True, things are not bad right now. I barely even consider the current circumstances to be hardship even. We still have food, a roof over our heads, running water, so it's all good. For now.

I truly believe that this is the calm before the storm. We are headed directly for an economic catastrophe that will make the Great Depression look like a period of wealth and plenty. This shutdown is unprecedented and will result in unprecedented economic woe. CERB won't last forever, but many many businesses will never open again. Unemployment is going to dwarf that of the Great Depression and that has ripple effects that will impact everyone.

I am not sure the choice was ever so binary as "let old people die" vs. "self-destruct the economy and let millions die over the following decades due to economic impact". I think that Sweden and South Dakota show that there was an alternative that could have saved lives while not destroying the economy. But assuming that the choice was the binary one above ... I ask myself, is destroying my children's entire lives that they have ahead of them and likely reducing their life expectancy significantly due to the impacts of incoming malnutrition, stress, and instability in their lives so that my 92 year old grandmother lives a few years longer a fair trade? I don't want to see anyone's elderly relatives die. But the sad fact is that they will at some point, and likely much sooner than my 9, 10, 12 year old children who have lives of misery stretching ahead of them because of the economic catastrophe incoming. I'd rather they had a chance at life like the one my grandparents, parents, and I had up til now.


----------



## Baz

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> But I think Quirky's main point was the economic lockdown. I don't care so much about not being allowed to go to a public park, what I do care about is it suddenly becoming illegal to provide for my family since I don't work in an "essential service".  Well, actually, ironically my job (criminal defence lawyer) has been deemed essential, yet the Law Courts have been shut down so indirectly I've had my ability to earn a living shut down. Many many people in Ontario have had their livelihoods taken away and their businesses forcibly closed. I call that a "lock down restriction" and we are in the "calm before the storm" on the impact these restrictions are going to have. Sure, right now it doesn't look so bad, most people can collect CERB, mortgage payments are being waived, etc. ... but this is not going to last forever. Many of the businesses that have been shut down (especially the small ones) will never open again. I think Quirky is spot-on with how destructive the economic fallout of this is going to be. It will make COVID-19 look like absolutely nothing compared to the years and years of misery and suffering we are going to see as a result of the economic catastrophe that is being created by these lockdowns.



I personally wouldn't want to be the one having to make these decisions.  We routinely practiced pandemic scenarios when I was a CanadaCom liaison to NorthCom watch officer (2005-06)  To say that we didn't know the impact and the difficult decisions is ignoring the fact that we did... it was on intel watch lists, high up the list in fact.  Above terrorism, and Russia, and China, and Iran, and North Korea...

For those that are worried about the economic impact, consider this: if the initial outbreak wasn't contained, then there is a high chance that panic (see Katrina / Rita) ripples through the population.  Then all the people that make life work and protect us, like Emergency Services, Hospitals, food distribution and retail, infrastructure maintenance, etc, stop going to work (again see Katrina / Rita, they ran away, because they could, and others couldn't).  Moreover, the non-professions amongst those (ie your grocery store) is among the less protected (not vulnerable, but in the US robust access to health care depends on your station in life).  So those that do keep working, and Emergency Services and hospitals due to exposure, get decimated; not killed, but at home.  And then panic becomes entrenched, and it is more contagious then the disease (again see Katrina / Rita).

And then the economy collapses in an uncontrolled way, which makes it much more difficult to restart.

In hindsight, we didn't know how this would develop.  And we'll never know if there but for the grace of god go us.

I'm glad we listened to those that had planned for this all their life, and I'm happy they are part of the decision making to get us restarted.

By the way, the number one threat was global economic meltdown, so the people that plan for this do understand your concerns.  And global environment upheaval was also on the list.


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what your proposed solution is though ... government mandated minimum wages for people in care homes? Price fixing on how much it costs to place an elderly person in a care home? I see such cures as being worse than the disease. I think it could cause and even worse situation.
> 
> This may not necessarily be the case with you personally, but I find that the reaction of many people whenever alternate concerns are pointed out (like how many will die due to the economic impact of the incoming depression caused by the lockdowns) is that they are callous and don't care about the elderly.
> 
> It's not that I don't care about the elderly. I have elderly relatives with health issues and I don't _want_ them to die. However,  I am also gravely concerned and frankly angered by how my own childrens' future is being destroyed. My children are having their childhood and their futures taken away from them. So I guess on the flip side I would say why is there such callous disregard for our childrens' future? Don't they deserve to have three square meals a day and a roof over their head growing up? How does that happen when the economy completely self-destructs over this?



I think there are plenty of other solutions that can work. Tax incentives, leave provisions etc for in home care.  Many of us will be or are in sandwich situations between kids and parents.  But even starting with just proper oversight would be a good start.  It's only in recent years that fire sprinklers became mandatory in care homes and that was only after a few tragedies had to happen.  They aren't even near enforcing it either. We need to rethink how we manage our elderly.  It was a problem even before COVID hit. 

  All valid concerns and all people concerned about jobs, the economy, food etc.   It's when you see signs like "Sacrifice the Weak" down south and even a few weeks ago a poster here was railing against baby boomers and people with pensions and we should just let nature take its course...so yeah, that sort of talk is not cool. 

Part of what these social distancing guidelines are for is so that we can actually get back to normal. So we don't overwhelm our health care system.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Remius said:
			
		

> I think there are plenty of other solutions that can work. Tax incentives, leave provisions etc for in home care.  Many of us will be or are in sandwich situations between kids and parents.  But even starting with just proper oversight would be a good start.  It's only in recent years that fire sprinklers became mandatory in care homes and that was only after a few tragedies had to happen.  They aren't even near enforcing it either. We need to rethink how we manage our elderly.  It was a problem even before COVID hit.



I guess my concern is, why is government oversight always the solution? Wouldn't it be a better solution for the families of these elderly folk to take ownership for the situation and look into what's going on in the homes they are in? Or better yet take an active role in caring for their family members? I understand that in some circumstances this would be beyond a family's ability due to medical requirements, but it would be possible in many.

One possible positive outcome of the economic disaster that is coming down the pike, is that people will have no choice but to live together again, with multiple generations living under one roof. This might actually in an accidental way mitigate some of the problems with these seniors' residences because the seniors will be back with their children since few will be able to live the way we have anymore.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> All valid concerns and all people concerned about jobs, the economy, food etc.   *It's when you see signs like "Sacrifice the Weak" down south and even a few weeks ago a poster here was railing against baby boomers and people with pensions and we should just let nature take its course*...so yeah, that sort of talk is not cool.



Agreed, that sort of talk is not cool.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> Part of what these social distancing guidelines are for is so that we can actually get back to normal. So we don't overwhelm our health care system.



My concern is that no one has demonstrated an overwhelmed health system would result in more economic destruction than making it illegal for 60% if Canadians to go out and earn a living.

And it's not even social distancing so much that I'm talking about ... it's the fact that most businesses were not even allowed to implement safeguards or a way to deliver their product while social distancing. They were just unilaterally shut down.


[/quote]


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Baz said:
			
		

> For those that are worried about the economic impact, consider this: if the initial outbreak wasn't contained, then there is a high chance that panic (see Katrina / Rita) ripples through the population.  Then all the people that make life work and protect us, like Emergency Services, Hospitals, food distribution and retail, infrastructure maintenance, etc, stop going to work (again see Katrina / Rita, they ran away, because they could, and others couldn't).  Moreover, the non-professions amongst those (ie your grocery store) is among the less protected (not vulnerable, but in the US robust access to health care depends on your station in life).  So those that do keep working, and Emergency Services and hospitals due to exposure, get decimated; not killed, but at home.  And then panic becomes entrenched, and it is more contagious then the disease (again see Katrina / Rita)



I think this is highly speculative and also a bit of comparing apples and oranges. A flu pandemic isn't the same as something like a massive Hurricane. I think if looking for examples from history, it might be more equivalent to look at the 1918 and 1968 flu pandemics. 

100,000 people died in '68 in the USA (out of 200,000,000 people). 500,000 to 850,000 died in the USA and 50,000 in Canada in '18. Canada's population was about 8,000,000 so to extrapolate that would be like close to 200,000 dying today). In neither of those instances was there the sort of societal and economic breakdown that you are describing. So I think it unlikely, although not impossible, for things to go as bad as you hypothesize.

It raises the question in my mind of whether it is better to just "rip the bandaid off" and get the pain over with, or have a slow destruction? I don't know the answer to that question. It's easy to sit back behind a computer when things are still relatively well and say the bandaid solution might be better.


----------



## Baz

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> My concern is that no one has demonstrated an overwhelmed health system would result in more economic destruction than making it illegal for 60% if Canadians to go out and earn a living.



See my post above.  One of the lessons from Katrina and Rita, which seem to have been forgotten, is that the military cannot due what the CSXs and Walmarts of the world do, they can only create the conditions for them to go back to work.  If panic had set in and people hunkered down, then the crash would have been much worse.  USNorthCom experienced it on a small scale and exercised for it on a large (pandemic scale).

We well may have went to far, but hindsight is 20/20.  I prefer that than the risks involved if we didn't go far enough.


----------



## Baz

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I think this is highly speculative and also a bit of comparing apples and oranges. A flu pandemic isn't the same as something like a massive Hurricane. I think if looking for examples from history, it might be more equivalent to look at the 1918 and 1968 flu pandemics.



Uncontrolled, it's much worse than a hurricane, and was viewed as that at USNorthCom.  A hurricane affects a small area, and the resources of the rest of the nation or if necessary (see typhoon) the world can be brought to bear.  A out of control pandemic affects the whole world at once and every administrative unit is pretty much on their own.

Although I don't have the time to talk about the social and economic disruption of 1918, it has been studied, a lot.  Just as an example, from the abstract of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30453209, 





> Understanding the significant social disruption and burden of illness from the 1918 pandemic can help us imagine the possible impacts of a high severity pandemic if it were to emerge now.


  And that was to a society that was still hardened to loss from sickness, and had just been hardened from unimaginable, at the time, losses from World War 1.

Not going to try to convince you.  I'm just saying that overall I'm happy with the decision making so far, given the situation under which the decisions were made; including those of the US Administration given the realities of their republic and power sharing (yes, including Trump; I have been dismayed by some of his public shows, but the actual performance of the administration is to me acceptable).


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I guess my concern is, why is government oversight always the solution? Wouldn't it be a better solution for the families of these elderly folk to take ownership for the situation and look into what's going on in the homes they are in? Or better yet take an active role in caring for their family members? I understand that in some circumstances this would be beyond a family's ability due to medical requirements, but it would be possible in many.



I didn’t say government oversight.  I said proper oversight. 

That’s why I brought tax incentives, leave provisions etc to allow people to have in home care, heck even training.  You need to give them the tools.


----------



## Quirky

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> There’s no doubt that our economy is going to take a hit. But if you’re of the camp that there’s some grand conspiracy of the government wanting to take control of every ounce of our lives at every turn just because you’re feeling inconvenienced (just like the rest of us) then maybe grab a placard and protest in front of your Premier’s house. I think I’ve heard of some similar style behaviour from somewhere...



I'm not at the point where I'm about to hold "sacrifice the weak" poster boards in mass protests, that's a little silly. However, what we need to realise is that natural selection sometimes needs to take its course, it has done so over the course of human history. This won't be the last great pandemic to spread across the globe and millions more will die in the future, you can't cheat death. I'm not afraid to die, are you? The vast majority of deaths in the country are in care homes, people who are nearing the end of their life, most of them in the tire fire province of Quebec. You can see that the public is getting restless and the longer this drags out, the crazier people will get and calls for reopening will grow louder. This country is printing an exorbitant amount of money we don't have, and it will take generations to recover financially from this wave alone. 

Lets hope we look back at this and realise how silly this all was. 

This brings chills seeing all those planes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIbXai0l174


----------



## Baz

Quirky said:
			
		

> This country is printing an exorbitant amount of money we don't have, and it will take generations to recover financially from this wave alone.



I'm sure you meant "printing an exorbitant amount of money we don't have" figuratively and not literally, but in case you didn't, that isn't how it works.  The government issues securities at auction, and the interested parties buy them at an agreed rate.  Historically most of those parties have in fact been Canadian entities.

"Printing money" is only done when a country is in an extreme economic distress, as it leads to runaway inflation (see Germany prior to World War II).  The economic indicators don't show we are in extreme distress; hardship yes, but not distress.

Since we are supposed to compare to previous events, we are no where near where we were in 1919 (due to both a war and a pandemic).

If we start using terms like quantitative easing, then I'll get scared.

I know my retirement is going to be much less comfortable than it might have been without a pandemic; but what did we expect, it's a pandemic.


----------



## QV

Imagine if this virus is much more widespread than as indicated by the number of confirmed cases.  This would mean the death rate is far lower than believed. 

Here is one study that suggests that is the case for Santa Clara County: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1

"These prevalence estimates represent a range between 48,000 and 81,000 people infected in Santa Clara County by early April, *50-85-fold more than the number of confirmed cases*. Conclusions The population prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in Santa Clara County implies that the infection is much more widespread than indicated by the number of confirmed cases."

Other considerations:

Globally the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.  https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/influenza-(seasonal)
In the US, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu.  https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year


----------



## Brad Sallows

Baz is correct.  The federal government is not directly monetizing its debt ("printing money").  If non-government entities don't buy, then the BoC steps in and buys - the creation of new money happens at one remove.  Either way, someone is holding paper with nominal value.  The BoC's role is key, in that it can subsequently sell back to the federal government what it holds and recover the money it created (remove it from the money supply).

With more money chasing the same or lesser production, price inflation should be expected (not necessarily hyperinflation).  It is also counterproductive to have governments competing with private enterprises for the pool of available cash for loans when the time comes to recover.

Governments can keep servicing debt and rolling it forward, or pay it off.  Future revenue is required to service debt regardless when it is paid off, which is why I take the view that the cost of program "X" should always be reported as the direct cost plus the cost of all debt servicing required.  The act of paying off, even without paying interest, is why borrowing today must consume future revenues.

Unless the government engineers negative interest rates, the massive borrowing now is going to squeeze future spending and future taxpayers, hard.

A couple of items: the City of Vancouver asked the province of BC for a $200M aid package; the BC government is asking the federal government for relief packages for transit and ferry service.  Everyone is asking for money, and the requests appear to be trickling upwards, where they must eventually land back in the laps of taxpayers.  But there are no tax revenues from transactions which do not take place or from people without incomes.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Weinie said:
			
		

> So short term pain outweighs long term gain? Hope your parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, and elderly neighbours agree.



I think he said the opposite. Long term gain outweighs short term gain. Or, saving a few lives now is outweighed by the much bigger loss of life in the offing as a result of the annihilation of Canada's economy.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> No one knows what the long term economic impacts will be. Magic 8 ball it. We can have a discussion in a few years on this forum, and one of us will owe the other an apology.



Assuming there is still an internet and all of us here debating have access to it. 

It's true, no one knows, but when you wipe out 44% of the workforce (cf. http://angusreid.org/covid-19-economic-impact-canada/) and don't allow them to work for months on end ... I don't see how this can possibly end well. Maybe people who know more about economics can explain to me how you don't have an economic catastrophe when 44% of those working pre COVID-19 are now not working at all  collecting CERB which the government is funding through incurring massive amounts of debt (because it's revenues from taxes and court fines among other things must be drastically reduced), and another 18% of Canadians have had their income significantly reduced. How will massive numbers of small and midsize businesses not going to go completely out of business.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> Will Canadian society be different than pre covid-19.....undoubtedly. Will we suffer a degradation in our standard of living...yeah probably.



I guess since I have children, I am not able to be so casual about standard of living degrading. For myself, okay, just suck it up. But it hurts to see that my children won't have the opportunities I did, will suffer a lot more than I did, and will most likely die a lot younger than my grandparents or parents as a result.

I really hope that you and others who think the impact will be minimal are right and it won't be so bad. I just can't see it.

Like I'm talking reduced to third world conditions bad. Tell me how this won't happen with 44% unemployment for an extended period. This isn't the 1930s. People were already stretched thin before this hit. I don't think we can absorb 30%+ unemployment as well as they absorbed 20% back then. The social and familial supports simply aren't there.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> ... you can spout "woe is us" til the cows come home, methinks it is more whining about how your life has been disrupted, and proves your own narcissism. Sorry you can't go mountain biking. I would rather be poorer economically, and have a treasured loved one still here, as opposed to espousing economics Trumps all.



This isn't about mountain biking for me. This is about whether my children will ever be able to have jobs. Whether my children's life expectancy will be much lower due to malnutrition, stress, bad environment.

I don't care about the disruption now. My concern is about when there's over 30% unemployment and I need to explain to my children why we don't get to eat some days. If I was single I wouldn't care so much, maybe.

If I was one of the lucky few who was still taking home his full paycheque and allowed to work, maybe I wouldn't be so doom and gloom. I guess time will tell -- we've never seen society shut down like this in history so it's difficult to say what will happen. I just can't see how anything but bad can come from such a shutdown especially as we stretch into multiple months.


----------



## mariomike

1 ) How bad is it out there? A dead body was left on the sidewalk in front of a Bronx funeral home.
https://twitter.com/JFNYC1/status/1253182760350633984

From the comfort and safety of my home,

2 ) My thoughts and prayers are for front-line responders like Maryse Belair.


> Ottawa paramedic for 18 years and  mother of 2 young girls.  Working during this pandemic has left her exhausted - both mentally
> and emotionally. All has changed. The fear of bringing home Covid-19 is real.
> https://twitter.com/michellevalberg/status/1253342087342428161


----------



## QV

QV said:
			
		

> Imagine if this virus is much more widespread than as indicated by the number of confirmed cases.  This would mean the death rate is far lower than believed.
> 
> Here is one study that suggests that is the case for Santa Clara County: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1
> 
> "These prevalence estimates represent a range between 48,000 and 81,000 people infected in Santa Clara County by early April, *50-85-fold more than the number of confirmed cases*. Conclusions The population prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in Santa Clara County implies that the infection is much more widespread than indicated by the number of confirmed cases."
> 
> Other considerations:
> 
> Globally the World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the flu kills 290,000 to 650,000 people per year.  https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/influenza-(seasonal)
> In the US, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu.  https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year



Up to 2.7 million in New York may have been infected.  https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/new-york-virus-deaths-top-15k-cuomo-expected-to-detail-plan-to-fight-nursing-home-outbreaks/2386556/  

If 2.7 million were infected of which 10,000 are confirmed deaths, the death rate is far lower than stated.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:
			
		

> If 2.7 million were infected of which 10,000 are confirmed deaths, the death rate is far lower than stated.



I go by increase in DOAs.


----------



## QV

Two things can be true at once.  You can have a high number of deaths with a low death rate if the infection is widespread.


----------



## stellarpanther

Just watching Doug Ford's press conference and he quoted Gen Vance as saying "put me in the most difficult homes there are", first, it won't be him working in those homes, he'll be in his office in NDHQ.  Second, I have a few friends who are medics and they are saying that they don't have the training to work in a nursing home.  I've also heard a few non-medical people question what they think the military can actually do working in a nursing home.  We are not trained for that sort of thing.  As much as I want to help, my concern would be we can actually harm someone because of our lack of training.  PSW's take a 6 month, maybe a year long course, I can't remember the exact length but they learn how to work in those facilities.  We have CPR and a first aid course.  I don't think this was well thought out.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've also heard a few non-medical people question what they think the military can actually do working in a nursing home.





> Legault said Wednesday that Quebec’s new request for 1,000 military personnel is centred on staff that can be used in non-medical tasks in the province’s long-term care homes.
> https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/canada/canadian-military-asked-to-provide-medical-personnel-to-help-ontario-long-term-care-homes-440831/



Plenty of speculation on what those "non-medical tasks" might be in the other Coronavirus discussion.


----------



## Weinie

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what your proposed solution is though ... government mandated minimum wages for people in care homes? Price fixing on how much it costs to place an elderly person in a care home? I see such cures as being worse than the disease. I think it could cause and even worse situation.
> 
> This may not necessarily be the case with you personally, but I find that the reaction of many people whenever alternate concerns are pointed out (like how many will die due to the economic impact of the incoming depression caused by the lockdowns) is that they are callous and don't care about the elderly.
> 
> It's not that I don't care about the elderly. I have elderly relatives with health issues and I don't _want_ them to die. However,  I am also gravely concerned and frankly angered by how my own childrens' future is being destroyed. My children are having their childhood and their futures taken away from them. So I guess on the flip side I would say why is there such callous disregard for our childrens' future? *Don't they deserve to have three square meals a day and a roof over their head growing up? How does that happen when the economy completely self-destructs over this?*



I have four kids - 13, 12, 8 and almost 3. I am actively and passionately engaged in making sure that they have every advantage that I can provide to them to set them up for the future, so _*no callous disregard here*_. But right now, medical statistics state the elderly make up between 70 and 80 percent of the fatalities from covid-19. I have yet to find anything, anywhere, that shows any correlating economic models that infer that either the global or Canadian economy will _*self-destruct*_. Will it contract...undoubtedly. However, I am reasonably certain that we will survive this. You may have noticed that I abhor the economics versus moralistic debate that is occurring, where personal considerations seem to outweigh the humanistic. I don't know your personal situation, and how the current economic factors are weighing on you. Lets agree to disagree.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Or the new "build Canadian" sentiment gives them opportunities that haven't existed since we sold our economic souls to China.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Or the new "build Canadian" sentiment gives them opportunities that haven't existed since we sold our economic souls to China.



I'm not an economist. But, perhaps it could be a new beginning for Canada.

After the terrible losses of The Great War and the 1918 pandemic, the "Roaring '20's" were a time of prosperity in Canada.

Of course, the "Dirty '30's" not so much.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Just watching Doug Ford's press conference and he quoted Gen Vance as saying "put me in the most difficult homes there are", first, it won't be him working in those homes, he'll be in his office in NDHQ.  Second, I have a few friends who are medics and they are saying that they don't have the training to work in a nursing home.  I've also heard a few non-medical people question what they think the military can actually do working in a nursing home.  We are not trained for that sort of thing.  As much as I want to help, my concern would be we can actually harm someone because of our lack of training.  PSW's take a 6 month, maybe a year long course, I can't remember the exact length but they learn how to work in those facilities.  We have CPR and a first aid course.  I don't think this was well thought out.


Pretty sure none of these folks from the KO Calg R were trained as Wildland Firefighters either, yet there they were, doing the business they were tasked with on Op LENTUS back in 2017...






When you're the last resort, people don't seem to really care if you have the requisite certificate, as long as you can do what they need you to do.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Weinie said:
			
		

> I have four kids - 13, 12, 8 and almost 3. I am actively and passionately engaged in making sure that they have every advantage that I can provide to them to set them up for the future, so _*no callous disregard here*_. But right now, medical statistics state the elderly make up between 70 and 80 percent of the fatalities from covid-19.



We're in almost exactly the same boat. I have five children - 13, 12, 10, 9, and 2. So even similar age range.

We also seem to be looking at the same medical statistics. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the point that 70-80% (possible more) of the fatalities due to COVID-19 are the elderly. This would seem to be consistent with many/most strains of the flu.



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> I have yet to find anything, anywhere, that shows any correlating economic models that infer that either the global or Canadian economy will _*self-destruct*_. Will it contract...undoubtedly. However, I am reasonably certain that we will survive this.



I frankly haven't seen any economic models other than the US Federal reserve's prediction of 32% unemployment. But they of course gave no indication of what 32% unemployment would look like. We know what 20% unemployment in the 1930s looked like. To hear my grandparents talk it was pretty bad. Not just contraction or not going on so many vacations bad. I mean, lots of people who lived through that had hoarding tendencies the rest of their lives because of what they went through. So 32% unemployment will be exponentially worse. I don't see any way around that.

Obviously I'm going to do all in my power to set my children up for life, and I believe that even in terribly difficult times like that, people who work hard and show initiative can still scrape out a living. I don't disagree with you that "we'll survive" but what will that quality of life look like.

I'm not saying "screw old people" but at some point there's got to be some triage. It is worth gaining a couple extra months or years for someone who lived a full life at the expense of denying millions an even basically decent existence?

Obviously we disagree on how bad the economic impact will be. I don't think anyone who fully favours the lockdowns believes that it will be that bad. I am just having a hard time understanding how it can not be Wiemar Republic or Zimbabwe levels of bad? I mean people "survive(d)" in those scenarios too, but it's not something I'd like to see my fellow Canadians and all their children go through when, IMO, it was avoidable/self-inflicted. 



			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> You may have noticed that I abhor the economics versus moralistic debate that is occurring, where personal considerations seem to outweigh the humanistic. I don't know your personal situation, and how the current economic factors are weighing on you. Lets agree to disagree.



To me, BOTH sides are moralistic/humanistic. At least from my perspective. It's not even that personal for me ... my family (certainly my parents) are very well off and they will help me and my family through any crisis I'm sure. I work in a relatively stable job. Even when there is 32% unemployment I will probably still have work in my field as a criminal defence lawyer (there were still lawyers making decent money even in the 30s). My children will probably have a much harder time finding jobs and affording education than I did, but on the other hand we have a house and hopefully the ability that my children can all live with me and my wife indefinitely.

I am more concerned about other people who do not live in such "privileged" circumstances as I do. The people who were already financially unstable before this hit, people in different fields of work, and their children, will all be hit much harder.


----------



## Remius

QV said:
			
		

> Two things can be true at once.  You can have a high number of deaths with a low death rate if the infection is widespread.



Depends on how one looks at it.  You are not wrong about death rates.  But...

If you had a virus that only affects people with 6 fingers but it will kill 100% of them your death rate is high but total amount of deaths would be low.

If you had a virus that affects everyone but only kills 10% you have a far greater amount deaths but a lower death rate.

Or both those scenarios remain the same but the time it takes to spread and kill them is over a longer period of time.  

Or the virus can spread fast and kill fast.

So many factors.  So what’s worse?  The death rate compared to affected numbers?  Or the actual amount of people that will die? 

Then add the speed and how contagious something is. 

This virus so far spreads fast, hard to detect, no vaccine and kills.  We don’t actually know what the death to affected ratio is because this is hardly over and deaths are underreported but so are confirmed cases.


----------



## Remius

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pretty sure none of these folks from the KO Calg R were trained as Wildland Firefighters either, yet there they were, doing the business they were tasked with on Op LENTUS back in 2017...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you're the last resort, people don't seem to really care if you have the requisite certificate, as long as you can do what they need you to do.



I learned a lot about, sweeping, cleaning toilets and showers, waxing floors, making beds, dusting and vacuuming in the Infantry.  I also learned how to make sure troops did it to a high standard. 

Lots of that needs doing in those homes.


----------



## Baz

I don't understand why everything is either / or.  Are eincapable of a nuanced position?

It's an epidemic.  People *are* going to die.  The economy will be affected, which will cause misery and quite likely deaths as well.  If either of those are unmanaged, there will be social unrest, which will make it worse (and I don't mean what's been happening in the US, that's the same unhappy people who spend their time getting angry at their TV because FOX panders to them.  A little bit the other way and we'd have the other group of younger unhappy people who get angry because CNN panders to them).

The response needs to be balanced.  I believe it has been.  I'm not trying to change the minds of people who already have them made up.  I'm trying to inject reason to the vast majority.   Which by the way largely want to stay the course, recognizing the price they'll pay.

To be fair, I'm most angry at the people that all politicians will ensure aren't damaged... the 1%.  They somehow are managing to get everyone else to pay for it.  Who do you think benefits when governments borrow massive amounts of money.  Who get's the interest?

But even that isn't nuanced.  The Ontario Teacher's Pension fund (as an example, as it's huge) needs to make good money on it's investments.  There's no better low risk than government bonds.  If the Canaduan government defaults we'll have bigger problems than retired teachers.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Baz said:
			
		

> I don't understand why everything is either / or.  Are eincapable of a nuanced position?
> 
> It's an epidemic.  People *are* going to die.  The economy will be affected, which will cause misery and quite likely deaths as well.  If either of those are unmanaged, there will be social unrest, which will make it worse ...
> 
> The response needs to be balanced.  I believe it has been.  I'm not trying to change the minds of people who already have them made up.  I'm trying to inject reason to the vast majority.   Which by the way largely want to stay the course, recognizing the price they'll pay.



I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you say. Where we disagree is that the response has been balanced. Shutting down almost all of the economy seems like overkill to me. Places like South Dakota and Sweden have kept their numbers relatively the same as elsewhere without self-destruction of their economy.

I don't know if some people are saying there should be NO steps taken. I am not one who says that. I think that social distancing and aggressive moves to isolate and protect the most vulnerable would have been appropriate. Even close down certainly truly non-essential things like professional sports where you have thousands crammed into a small area. But to me, shutting down all the restaurants, hair dressers, boutique stores, the law courts, and such is going into unbalanced self-destruction of the economy territory. 

So you and I, at least, only disagree on the extent to which the economy needed to be brutalized to achieve a balance of protecting short term lives while also protecting long term lives (via a healthy economy -- I think it's pretty generally accepted that bad economy leads to a poorer environment and poorer health?).

I agree with you about social unrest. And I think it may well be coming. CERB and forcing landlords to let their tenants stay on rent-free is keeping it at bay for now. But it seems to me that  CERB can only be paid out for so long before the government can't even afford to make interest payments on its debts let alone spend on anything else. And eventually all the landlords will just go bankrupt and walk away from their buildings. And then things start getting really ugly.


----------



## stellarpanther

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pretty sure none of these folks from the KO Calg R were trained as Wildland Firefighters either, yet there they were, doing the business they were tasked with on Op LENTUS back in 2017...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you're the last resort, people don't seem to really care if you have the requisite certificate, as long as you can do what they need you to do.



On other forums I belong to ,most of the public is opposed to military being around their loved ones unless they are medical people in the CAF.


----------



## Weinie

Baz said:
			
		

> I don't understand why everything is either / or.  Are eincapable of a nuanced position?
> 
> It's an epidemic.  People *are* going to die.  The economy will be affected, which will cause misery and quite likely deaths as well.  If either of those are unmanaged, there will be social unrest, which will make it worse (and I don't mean what's been happening in the US, that's the same unhappy people who spend their time getting angry at their TV because FOX panders to them.  A little bit the other way and we'd have the other group of younger unhappy people who get angry because CNN panders to them).
> 
> The response needs to be balanced.  I believe it has been.  I'm not trying to change the minds of people who already have them made up.  I'm trying to inject reason to the vast majority.   Which by the way largely want to stay the course, recognizing the price they'll pay.
> 
> _*To be fair, I'm most angry at the people that all politicians will ensure aren't damaged... the 1%.  They somehow are managing to get everyone else to pay for it.  Who do you think benefits when governments borrow massive amounts of money.  Who get's the interest?*_
> 
> But even that isn't nuanced.  The Ontario Teacher's Pension fund (as an example, as it's huge) needs to make good money on it's investments.  There's no better low risk than government bonds.  If the Canaduan government defaults we'll have bigger problems than retired teachers.



Welcome to reality. The 1% have always operated this way, through good times and bad. Why rail against them? Pretty sure that Bill Gates and Warren Buffett aren't following you. 

"Moral reasoning typically applies logic and moral theories, such as deontology or utilitarianism, to specific situations or dilemmas. However, people are not especially good at moral reasoning. Indeed, the term moral dumbfounding describes the fact that people often reach strong moral conclusions that they cannot logically defend.
In fact, evidence shows that the moral principle or theory a person chooses to apply is often, ironically, based on their emotions, not on logic. Their choice is usually influenced by internal biases or outside pressures, such as the self-serving bias or the desire to conform.
So, while we likely believe we approach ethical dilemmas logically and rationally, the truth is our moral reasoning is usually influenced by intuitive, emotional reactions."
https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glossary/moral-reasoning

I am as guilty of this as the next.


----------



## Baz

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> So you and I, at least, only disagree on the extent to which the economy needed to be brutalized to achieve a balance of protecting short term lives while also protecting long term lives (via a healthy economy -- I think it's pretty generally accepted that bad economy leads to a poorer environment and poorer health?).



Fair enough.  And yes, a poor economy leads to a poorer environment and poorer health (however, the economy is a construct of man.  We choose to have it the way it is, and the people who choose that are the ones that benefit the most).

However, based on my experience in pandemic planning, I don't think it is as simple as less disruption = better economy.  There is a *risk* that less disruption leads to more impacts of the actual sickness which = worse economy.  I think we disagree on the magnitude of that risk (remembering there are normally two parts of risk, likelihood and impact); so be it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>any correlating economic models that infer that either the global or Canadian economy will self-destruct

You think there are good models out there to trust in such uncharted territory?  Good luck with that.

>I abhor the economics versus moralistic debate that is occurring

Wrong frame.  It's economic imperatives versus health imperatives; both have a moral dimension.  People have to have basic needs met to be physically and mentally (emotionally) well.


----------



## CBH99

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I don't disagree with the vast majority of what you say. Where we disagree is that the response has been balanced. Shutting down almost all of the economy seems like overkill to me. Places like South Dakota and Sweden have kept their numbers relatively the same as elsewhere without self-destruction of their economy.
> 
> I don't know if some people are saying there should be NO steps taken. I am not one who says that. I think that social distancing and aggressive moves to isolate and protect the most vulnerable would have been appropriate. Even close down certainly truly non-essential things like professional sports where you have thousands crammed into a small area. But to me, shutting down all the restaurants, hair dressers, boutique stores, the law courts, and such is going into unbalanced self-destruction of the economy territory.
> 
> So you and I, at least, only disagree on the extent to which the economy needed to be brutalized to achieve a balance of protecting short term lives while also protecting long term lives (via a healthy economy -- I think it's pretty generally accepted that bad economy leads to a poorer environment and poorer health?).
> 
> I agree with you about social unrest. And I think it may well be coming. CERB and forcing landlords to let their tenants stay on rent-free is keeping it at bay for now. But it seems to me that  CERB can only be paid out for so long before the government can't even afford to make interest payments on its debts let alone spend on anything else. And eventually all the landlords will just go bankrupt and walk away from their buildings. And then things start getting really ugly.




I agree with everything you said - Sweden is, unfortunately, starting to pay a serious price for the way they approached it.

At first, I was envious of them.  Not over reacting.  Using common sense, social distancing, but keeping everything open for the most part.  I'd watch news clips of people going about their normal lives, and it looked downright joyful.

However, they are starting to pay a serious consequence for it, unfortunately.



I agree with you though.  Shutting down the entire economy seems like it will do more harm than good, on multiple areas.  

No haircuts, yet whenever I go to the local grocery store there are plenty of people in the store, walking the aisles, etc.

No restaurants or movie theatres, but Wal-Mart always seems decently busy.


We should really be examining, here in Alberta anyway, where we could reasonably loosen up a bit.  (I'm sure that applies everywhere, but I don't know the specifics of what other provinces have closed down.)  Everything closed indefinitely isn't a great solution when the government is bleeding money, and not taking any in.   :2c:


----------



## Baz

Weinie said:
			
		

> Welcome to reality. The 1% have always operated this way, through good times and bad. Why rail against them? Pretty sure that Bill Gates and Warren Buffett aren't following you.



Oh, I'm not going to  "rail" against them, there is no point.  I'm also not going to rail against Trump, the radical left, or the radical right, there is also no point.  I've learnt that the hard way (notwithstanding my whiny Centrist post of a couple of days ago); as a matter of fact Army.ca is the *only* social media I am active in solely because coherent thought is not only encouraged, but is also policed.

But in all of the "if the left had their way," and "if they right had their way," and "Trump did / didn't do this," and "Trudeau did / didn't do this," and blah, blah, blah, I think one line about the greater social injustice is not out of place.


----------



## X Royal

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've also heard a few non-medical people question what they think the military can actually do working in a nursing home.  We are not trained for that sort of thing.  As much as I want to help, my concern would be we can actually harm someone because of our lack of training.  PSW's take a 6 month, maybe a year long course, I can't remember the exact length but they learn how to work in those facilities.  We have CPR and a first aid course.  I don't think this was well thought out.


Lots of other things need to be done in long term care facilities other than patient care.
Such things all military are trained to do like cleaning and laundry.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Just watching Doug Ford's press conference and he quoted Gen Vance as saying "put me in the most difficult homes there are", first, it won't be him working in those homes, he'll be in his office in NDHQ.  Second, I have a few friends who are medics and they are saying that they don't have the training to work in a nursing home.  I've also heard a few non-medical people question what they think the military can actually do working in a nursing home.  We are not trained for that sort of thing.  As much as I want to help, my concern would be we can actually harm someone because of our lack of training.  PSW's take a 6 month, maybe a year long course, I can't remember the exact length but they learn how to work in those facilities.  We have CPR and a first aid course.  I don't think this was well thought out.



Jeez, you seem to have a lot of friends who do a lot of complaining about what they can't or don't want to do.

If your medic friends are saying they don't have the training to provide very basic nursing care, then maybe they should find another trade in the CF because they are obviously unqualified to perform a important aspect of their MOC.  I'll admit that the focus of medical NCM training has changed significantly in the several decades since I did my Med A TQ3 course.  Whereas the first few weeks of our training was heavily skewed to basic nursing skills, current day Med Techs are more focused on EMT training, but, if they aren't trained for in-patient care what were Med Techs doing for those being held in the Role 3 in Afghanistan.

It's not rocket science.  If they are a bit rusty about bedside nursing, then a couple of days of orientation before being on their own (or as much on their own as skill level permits) should suffice.  I would also not expect it to be overly onerous to train non-medical troops in some of the basic skills to "assist" medics in providing the care needed (making beds, moving patients/residents, feeding, bathing, waste elimination - could even give them a basic idea of the least desirable PO "care of body after death").  Back a few decades ago (when Reserve Med As training was also different) I included all those things and more in less than five days for a TQ2 (or maybe it was TQ3 also) course that we ran in Dundern.  In another time, we even had one of the CAR troopers pitching in on the wards at the hospital (and one of our mobile clinics) we set up in Rwanda in '94, so it's not like cbt arms type are incapable of doing that type of work.

As an exercise a few days ago, I even started to sketch out a training plan for such.  Everything for non-medical types could be done in five days.  There are even a lot of video training aids already on youtube.


----------



## CBH99

Cleaning, assisting with meal preparation and distribution, assisting with laundry, lawn maintenance, moving patients, assisting staff with their duties.

I image it will be a few extra bodies to help so their staff can be isolated when need be, and the remaining staff aren't overburdened and the quality of care stays relatively consistent.



I imagine, in all reality, this will be a fairly relaxed and easy gig once the routine sets in.


----------



## QV

Remius said:
			
		

> Depends on how one looks at it.  You are not wrong about death rates.  But...
> 
> If you had a virus that only affects people with 6 fingers but it will kill 100% of them your death rate is high but total amount of deaths would be low.
> 
> If you had a virus that affects everyone but only kills 10% you have a far greater amount deaths but a lower death rate.
> 
> Or both those scenarios remain the same but the time it takes to spread and kill them is over a longer period of time.
> 
> Or the virus can spread fast and kill fast.
> 
> So many factors.  So what’s worse?  The death rate compared to affected numbers?  Or the actual amount of people that will die?
> 
> Then add the speed and how contagious something is.
> 
> This virus so far spreads fast, hard to detect, no vaccine and kills.  We don’t actually know what the death to affected ratio is because this is hardly over and deaths are underreported but so are confirmed cases.



Two things: 

1.  If the virus was already widespread before the lockdowns, then the lockdowns likely had a limited impact.  Those sample studies I provided earlier up thread indicate this infection has been widespread which indicates it has been with us for much longer than initially believed.  Considering this virus was racing through regions of China late last year, it is known to be highly contagious, international travel continued unabated until not long ago, China was not truthful about anything, than you can make a reasonable assumption this virus has been with us in North America since late last year.  Anecdotal evidence of an early and nasty flu season, the high number of asymptomatic carriers, etc ... there are many factors that indicate this is possible.       

2.  Has the total COVID-19 and flu deaths combined exceeded the normal projected deaths due to flu?  The WHO expects between 250k-750k deaths due to the flu annually, the CDC in the US expects between 12k and 61k deaths due to the flu annually.  Are we within or relatively close to those margins?  I have not looked that far ahead, maybe someone will find those numbers. 

So if this virus was already widespread (too late for social distancing/lockdowns to have a major impact) and the death rate is relatively low (0.1-0.3%), then was the decision to shutdown much of the world to the tune of trillions of dollars and massive unemployment worldwide the correct decision and worth the cost?


----------



## Baz

QV said:
			
		

> So if this virus was already widespread (too late for social distancing/lockdowns to have a major impact) and the death rate is relatively low (0.1-0.3%), then was the decision to shutdown much of the world to the tune of trillions of dollars and massive unemployment worldwide the correct decision and worth the cost?



In hindsight, you may prove to be correct.

Given the information we had, and have now, it was and is.  With the caveat that if they don't have a plan and trigger points to activate it then they are failing.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >any correlating economic models that infer that either the global or Canadian economy will self-destruct
> 
> You think there are good models out there to trust in such uncharted territory?  Good luck with that.
> 
> >I abhor the economics versus moralistic debate that is occurring
> 
> Wrong frame.  It's economic imperatives versus health imperatives; both have a moral dimension.  _*People have to have basic needs met to be physically and mentally (emotionally) well.*_



I'm reasonably confident that Maslows' construct still applies, the sky isn't about to fall, and that there will be lots of self-actualization going forward. And the fact that you are framing things within imperatives vs needs belies your arguments.


----------



## stellarpanther

X Royal said:
			
		

> Lots of other things need to be done in long term care facilities other than patient care.
> Such things all military are trained to do like cleaning and laundry.



That's why people are quiting.  They don't need to bring in the military for that, hire more people.  We're not janitors.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"imperatives" == "things that are important".  A scope which includes, but is not limited to, needs.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I agree with everything you said - Sweden is, unfortunately, starting to pay a serious price for the way they approached it.



This is the first I had heard of things in Sweden taking a negative turn. I did a google search and couldn't find anything. Surely the media would be all over such a story like white on rice since they have been the biggest proponents of a total lockdown? 

To the contrary of paying a heavy price, I found this article dated 22 April (yesterday): https://nationalpost.com/news/world/keeping-restaurants-schools-open-during-covid-19-pandemic-working-for-sweden

*"Anders Tegnell, the architect behind Sweden’s relatively relaxed response to COVID-19, told local media the latest figures on infection rates and fatalities indicate the situation is starting to stabilize."*

According to Johns Hopkins' tracker, Sweden has had 2,021 deaths as of when I checked a moment ago. In a country of 10.2 million. So they are a fair bit higher than Canada and some of its neighbours, but proportionally is still lower than places like France, Italy, Spain, UK. So it seems to me that they are still doing better than some places who have locked everything down.



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> We should really be examining, here in Alberta anyway, where we could reasonably loosen up a bit.  (I'm sure that applies everywhere, but I don't know the specifics of what other provinces have closed down.)  Everything closed indefinitely isn't a great solution when the government is bleeding money, and not taking any in.   :2c:



Agreed.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "imperatives" == "things that are important".  A scope which includes, but is not limited to, needs.


"imperatives" == "things that are _*important"*_. Importance of things is contextual, two months ago it was important for me to get my two kids to their elite soccer tryout, now not so much. 
Needs in this construct is, by definition: lack of the means of subsistence. If you lack subsistence, you lack the ability or luxury to construct imperatives.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> With all the shortages of PPE, I doubt the CAF mbr's will have the appropriate equipment when the workers don't.  I've heard a lot of PSW are refusing certain tasks, the CAF mbr's should be required to subject themselves to the same risks with the PPE either.  It's not right.
> 
> I just don't think it's the job of the CAF to working in Nursing homes.  I doubt the province will be paying for this and they are probably looking at it as free labour.



I saw CAF members with clear minds and open hearts going in and helping people.


----------



## blacktriangle

I think it's probably time that society have an honest discussion about realistic expectations regarding longevity, quality of life etc. We have had it so good, for so long here. But it's never enough. People always want more. Some of the rich "elite" are going as far as to spend lots of money trying to find ways to live far longer than the average human. It's pretty gross. Especially when you consider how badly so many have had it, do have it, and probably will continue to have it because no one cares about them. 

We will shut down the entire world to keep a pandemic at bay, but we've let tons of people be killed during genocide, little girls sold into sexual slavery etc. No one really seems to care about suffering until it hits home or hits their wallet. 

If this pandemic has shown me anything, it's that humanity can make things happen. When it suits us.


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> With all the shortages of PPE, I doubt the CAF mbr's will have the appropriate equipment when the workers don't.  I've heard a lot of PSW are refusing certain tasks, the CAF mbr's should be required to subject themselves to the same risks with the PPE either.  It's not right.
> 
> I just don't think it's the job of the CAF to working in Nursing homes.  I doubt the province will be paying for this and they are probably looking at it as free labour.


Fortunately, the MND and CDS have experts with indepth knoweldge of the PPE stocks held by the CAF to draw on when they are making decisions, rather than some random dude on the internet pulling conjecture out of thin air.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>"imperatives" == "things that are important". Importance of things is contextual, two months ago it was important for me to get my two kids to their elite soccer tryout, now not so much.
Needs in this construct is, by definition: lack of the means of subsistence. If you lack subsistence, you lack the ability or luxury to construct imperatives. 

What direction are you trying to go?  The point is that "economics versus moralistic debate" is a false or misleading framing, because "economics" has a moral dimension: food, clothing, shelter, etc.  And in a debate, the things of importance are usually stated outright, not assumed (from context).  Do you have some novel interpretation of "economics" that you meant?


----------



## Weinie

For brevity , I typed economics vs moral *debate*. If I type economics debate vs moral debate (sigh) does that make things clearer?


----------



## mariomike

Saw a politician on TV. He didn't put it exactly this way, but he seemed to be saying, "My money is more important than YOUR life!"


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> Saw a politician on TV. He didn't put it exactly this way, but he seemed to be saying, "My money is more important than YOUR life!"



Well if he didn't exactly put it that way, then he didn't say it.


----------



## mariomike

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Well if he didn't exactly put it that way, then he didn't say it.



Didnt say he said it. But, that's the message I got.
 https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Aw&ei=IAyiXpn-CaLI_Qb9n5DoCA&q=%22dan+patrick%22+%22more+important+things+than+living%22&oq=%22dan+patrick%22+%22more+important+things+than+living%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABOgcIABCDARBDOgQIABBDOgIIADoFCAAQgwE6BggAEAcQHjoECAAQCjoGCAAQFhAeUMrEAVio8AJgr_MCaABwAHgAgAGBAogB1iSSAQcyMS4xNS40mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiZjpeswv_oAhUiZN8KHf0PBI0Q4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1587678288456


----------



## Weinie

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I think it's probably time that society have an honest discussion about realistic expectations regarding longevity, quality of life etc. We have had it so good, for so long here. But it's never enough. People always want more.


Ok, so who becomes the societal arbiter of longevity, quality of life etc.? You? Me? Aspirational arrogance meets Soylent Green. Probably won't be any abuse of that kind of power.



			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> We will shut down the entire world to keep a pandemic at bay, but we've let tons of people be killed during genocide, little girls sold into sexual slavery etc. No one really seems to care about suffering until it hits home or hits their wallet.



You are still posting on the Internet, and still buying groceries and beer. Conflating past historical wrongs with current events is moral relativism, which is never good.


----------



## blacktriangle

Weinie said:
			
		

> Ok, so who becomes the societal arbiter of longevity, quality of life etc.? You? Me?



You seem reasonable, so sure. If you can wave a magic wand and save a couple kids in exchange for me right now, you have my blessing. I've had a good run.


----------



## mariomike

No Calgary Stampede.


----------



## Weinie

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> You seem reasonable, so sure. If you can wave a magic wand and save a couple kids in exchange for me right now, you have my blessing. I've had a good run.


My initial response to your answer was to search the emojis for the exasperation I was feeling, and then just post that. No such emoji exists on this site.
I am not trying to stifle your opinion, it is as valid as mine. I will debate the ideas that you propose, sometimes vehemently. It does not preclude you from kicking my ass logically; that has happened to me on this site several times. 

We live in interesting times right now; it has engendered discussion on topics that had heretofore been considered taboo. I am not starting fights or looking to instill hard feelings, if at no other time, this is a moment that requires Canadian unity to combat a societal issue. How we construct that unity is still open to debate.


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> So province asks for military assistance.  Gvt says yes and instructs military to make it happen.  What is leadership supposed to do? Say no? How do you know if that conversation didn’t already happen and now leadership is loyally executing their orders?
> 
> How do they not have our backs exactly?



I guess in this case we'll wait to see.  I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern that they won't have the PPE they want and will be told it's not required.  I know they're only speculating but it's out there. The reason for this thinking is because a lot of the staff working in the homes now are complaining they don't have it so it's might be reasonable to assume the CAF mbr's won't either.  How's it going to look if the regular workers don't have it but the CAF comes in there with it?  Those workers will be complaining.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I guess in this case we'll wait to see.  I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern that they won't have the PPE they want and will be told it's not required.  I know they're *only speculating* but it's out there. The reason for this thinking is because a lot of the staff working in the homes now are complaining they don't have it so it's might be reasonable to assume the CAF mbr's won't either.  How's it going to look if the regular workers don't have it but the CAF comes in there with it?  Those workers will be complaining.



Because 'Speculate' is one of the steps of Battle Procedure? Got it....


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Because 'Speculate' is one of the steps of Battle Procedure? *Got it....
> *




We all have different opinions on certain topics but is it not possible to have a discussion on here without the sarcasm.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>If I type economics debate vs moral debate (sigh) does that make things clearer?

There are two debates?  What are the resolutions and questions of the "economics debate", and of the "moral debate"?  Or do you mean a debate of "economics" vs "morals", in which case - what do you mean by "morals"?


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >If I type economics debate vs moral debate (sigh) does that make things clearer?
> 
> _*There are two debates?  What are the resolutions and questions of the "economics debate", and of the "moral debate"?  Or do you mean a debate of "economics" vs "morals", in which case - what do you mean by "morals"?*_



OK. You were the initiator of the lexicon parsing. I am happy to post your quotes.  

Let's assume that you are doing the semantics and phraseology inquiry because you are genuinely invested/interested in it. I literally have no time to respond to or assist you in this. Google is your friend. 

Seriously?


----------



## garb811

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I guess in this case we'll wait to see.  I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern that they won't have the PPE they want and will be told it's not required.  I know they're only speculating but it's out there. The reason for this thinking is because a lot of the staff working in the homes now are complaining they don't have it so it's might be reasonable to assume the CAF mbr's won't either.  How's it going to look if the regular workers don't have it but the CAF comes in there with it?  Those workers will be complaining.


I suppose you could always volunteer to fill one of those positions and find out first hand...


----------



## Ralph

Well, if the CDS isn't going to go, why should I?


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I guess in this case we'll wait to see.  I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern that they won't have the PPE they want and will be told it's not required.  I know they're only speculating but it's out there. The reason for this thinking is because a lot of the staff working in the homes now are complaining they don't have it so it's might be reasonable to assume the CAF mbr's won't either.  How's it going to look if the regular workers don't have it but the CAF comes in there with it?  Those workers will be complaining.



I get it, the Government of Canada has had a pretty crappy record of sending us places without proper equipment (Iltis in Afghanistan anyone?), but a simple Google search would have told you that we have enough PPE. Public Affairs isn't going to lie to the media on an issue like this as its pretty simple to catch them in it if troops show up without masks.

https://www.thetelegram.com/news/canada/canadian-forces-says-it-has-enough-masks-for-covid-19-deployment-434493/


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I get it, the Government of Canada has had a pretty crappy record of sending us places without proper equipment (Iltis in Afghanistan anyone?), but a simple Google search would have told you that we have enough PPE. Public Affairs isn't going to lie to the media on an issue like this as its pretty simple to catch them in it if troops show up without masks.
> 
> https://www.thetelegram.com/news/canada/canadian-forces-says-it-has-enough-masks-for-covid-19-deployment-434493/



Hopefully they do get the required equipment but the rational that I heard made a bit of sense.  The optics of the military wearing PPE when other workers are told no might not look good.  I wear a mask when going to a grocery store, if it was me, I would certainly want one if I needed to work in a home.  The mbr's should have the option even if the CoC feels it's not necessary because there are still too many unknowns about the spread.  Maybe the doubters will be wrong and I hope they are.


----------



## PMedMoe

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I wear a mask when going to a grocery store



Can I assume (and hope) you are wearing a non-medical mask?  If so, that only protects other people from you, not you from other people.


----------



## stellarpanther

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Can I assume (and hope) you are wearing a non-medical mask?  If so, that only protects other people from you, not you from other people.



They are N95's that I purchased online from a safety supply store at the beginning of February before this became a big problem.  I sometimes like to prepare for the worst and they weren't very expensive so I ordered 2 boxes of 10 each.  Since I figured I wouldn't be using them very often and I could reuse them since I would only be using it for 20 minutes or so once or twice a week, I called the civic hospital to see if I could donate a box and was basically told thank you but keep them for myself and family.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> They are N95's that I purchased online from a safety supply store at the beginning of February before this became a big problem.  I



A wise decision. During SARS, they told us surgical masks were good enough. 

When guys started getting admitted to ICU, they issued the N95's.  After that, nobody got sick.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Seriously?

>You may have noticed that I abhor the economics versus moralistic debate that is occurring, where personal considerations seem to outweigh the humanistic.

The economics debate IS a humanistic debate.  If all you mean is that you deplore the people who put self-interest before collective interest, in which self-interest is trivialities like going to Starbucks, I agree with you.  But that's not an economics debate.  The economics debate that's unfolding out there is about mitigating damage to people's lives and well-being.

It's serious because some people are using the worst behaviour of those who want restrictions relaxed as an excuse to ignore the importance of relaxing restrictions.


----------



## Blackadder1916

4 long-term care homes must take more steps to protect staff from COVID-19, judge rules
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/superior-court-ontario-nurses-association-long-term-car-homes-injunction-1.5543389


> CBC News · Posted: Apr 23, 2020 9:22 PM ET | Last Updated: 10 hours ago
> 
> Ontario's Superior Court of Justice granted an injunction Thursday to the nurses' union in the province — ordering four long-term care homes where dozens of patients have died of COVID-19 to comply with provincial infection control and health standards.
> 
> The Ontario Nurses Association (ONA) filed for the injunction last Friday, accusing the homes of failing to adequately protect their staff from the novel coronavirus.
> 
> Eatonville Care Centre Inc., Anson Place Centre Centre and Hawthorne Place Care Centre — all owned by Rykka Care Centres, which is an operating partner of Responsive Group — as well as Henley Place in London were all named in the injunction.
> 
> So far, more than 70 patients have died of COVID-19 at the four facilities combined, and several nurses working at the homes owned by Rykka Care have contracted the virus.
> 
> In his ruling, Justice Edward Morgan wrote: "Where the lives of nurses and patients are placed at risk, the balance of convenience favours those measures that give primacy to the health and safety of medical personnel and those that they treat."
> 
> The ONA, which represents more than 68,000 registered nurses and health-care professionals, as well as 18,000 nursing student affiliates,.had asked that the court "on an urgent basis" issue mandatory orders addressing what the union described as serious health and safety problems at the facilities, including shortages of personal protective equipment (PPE), such as masks and gowns.
> 
> The union also asked the court for an injunction requiring the centres to refrain from ongoing breaches of directives issued by the chief medical officer of health for Ontario on March 30 and April 2.
> 
> The directives pertain to practices and procedures in long-term care homes and to the supply of personal protective equipment (PPE) — including N95 respirator masks — in those facilities, during the current COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> 3 long-term care homes run by same company report total of 71 deaths from COVID-19
> 'Pure negligence': Health union calls on province to take over 3 long-term care homes
> 
> The ONA wanted the homes to take any and all reasonable precautionary measures to ensure that nursing staff receive health and safety protections as directed by the chief medical officer of health.
> 
> "Nurses are not to be impeded in making an assessment and determination at point of care as to what PPE or other measures are appropriate and required under the circumstances," Morgan wrote in his decision.
> 
> "That assessment and determination is to be made on the basis of their professional judgment, taking into account the immediate situation as well as relevant longer and shorter-term considerations," he added.
> 
> 'We will continue to comply,' Responsive Management says
> Reacting to the ruling, Responsive Management Inc. said it is comfortable with the court's decision, noting that it confirms for all parties that the chief medical officer of health's directives are appropriate to protect staff in long-term care.
> 
> "We will continue to comply with all the chief medical officer of health directives and the order of the court," vice president of operations Linda Calbarese wrote in a statement.
> 
> Calbarese said all staff across all their homes have had access to the necessary PPE as outlined by "the very stringent safety requirements" from the Ministry of Health.
> 
> Long-term care nurses pleased with ruling, ONA says
> Meanwhile, the ONA said its members working in long-term care facilities are relieved that the ruling orders the long-term care homes to immediately rectify several serious health and safety issues that have resulted in devastating COVID-19 outbreaks.
> 
> "It is truly a huge relief to know that after exhausting all other avenues, the Ontario Superior Court has agreed with ONA that these employers must follow health and safety practices to prevent the spread of infection among long-term care residents and the registered nurses and health professionals who care for them," said ONA president Vicki McKenna.
> 
> "ONA is thrilled that our members will have access to the proper protective equipment they need to protect themselves, and therefore their residents, and that the homes' administrators will be forced to follow infection control practices — and put safety over profit."


----------



## stellarpanther

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/superior-court-ontario-nurses-association-long-term-car-homes-injunction-1.5543389


----------



## Brad Sallows

Arnold Kling (economist) provides a summary of his opinions.  Together with the comments, discusses pros/cons of ventilation and some other aspects of treatment; likelihood of vaccine; testing; severity/vulnerability; mitigation; trade-offs.


----------



## Quirky

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I have five children - 13, 12, 10, 9, and 2.





			
				Weinie said:
			
		

> I have four kids - 13, 12, 8 and almost 3.



Holy hell gents, I don't know how you sleep. I'm in my early 30s, married, with no kids, well a 0.5, and we can't even imagine bring kids into this world right now. Even if we decide never to have any, at least you'll have us covered. 



			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I think it's probably time that society have an honest discussion about realistic expectations regarding longevity, quality of life etc. We have had it so good, for so long here. But it's never enough. People always want more. Some of the rich "elite" are going as far as to spend lots of money trying to find ways to live far longer than the average human. It's pretty gross. Especially when you consider how badly so many have had it, do have it, and probably will continue to have it because no one cares about them.



Solution to humanity is to remove classes of rich, poor, wealth and money, everyone should work together for the overall objectives of the species. Every single person needs to contribute something to the best of their abilities to humanities goal, which is to explore the galaxy and beyond. Worked for the civilisation in Star Trek in any case. That's my idea........ Back to covid...


----------



## Blackadder1916

Weinie said:
			
		

> I have four kids - 13, 12, 8 and almost 3.





			
				LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I have five children - 13, 12, 10, 9, and 2.




So, unavailability of PPE is not a new phenomenon.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Two pieces:


1) CGAI:



> The Canadian Armed Forces’ Response to COVID-19
> POLICY PERSPECTIVE
> by Denis Thompson
> https://www.cgai.ca/the_canadian_armed_forces_response_to_covid_19



2) CDAI, much more broad and analytic--brief excerpt:



> VIMY PAPER 44
> COVID-19 AND THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES: OVERVIEW, ANALYSIS, AND NEXT STEPS
> By Adam MacDonald & Carter Vance
> ...
> The CAF will always be ready to defend Canada and help Canadians through a crisis, but are they properly mandated and should they be tasked with the increasing domestic duties they have been asked to take on? Is a more dedicated force, either functionally tasked to do so within the military, or a new civilian agency a better fit to meet the growing demand from domestic emergencies?  These are questions that do not have easy answers. Further, they are not exclusively or even primarily questions of logistics, funding or technical capabilities. Above all, they are questions that must be answered by policymakers and the public at a more overarching political level and rest on fundamental beliefs about what their military is for...
> https://cdainstitute.ca/vimy-paper-44/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MJP

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> "Multi-Hatting Versus Specialization: There must be the avoidance of seeing military personnel as hyper-competent and multi-purpose agents which can do any task set before them, thus being used as a backstop for any and all challenging situations"
> 
> This quote explains better what I was trying to trying to say yesterday when I said we aren't janitors.  Clearly a bad choice of words on my part.



So go that one step further and where is that quote from?  What context where they saying it in?  Is there a link?  I broadly see the point but without context the quote alone is useless.  

At the end of the day we will always fill in the gaps for Canada and Canadians, it is part and parcel of the unlimited liability aspect of our job.  We can and will be ordered to fill roles that we have no specialization in because we are available and at the end of the day we are there for Canadians.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

It was brought up earlier in the thread that (paraphrasing) ‘it isn’t CAF’s job to go into nursing homes and such, and that there are apparently those complaining who wouldn’t want military pers tending to their loved ones who aren’t medically/appropriately trained or whatever.’

This isn’t based on any policy or anything; simply my POV.

After all is said and done, every single facet of society is going to be critiquing every other single facet of society—private & public sector, business owners, home owners, single people, married, those with kids, those without, social assistance recipients, salaried employees, those who were laid off, those who weren’t, healthcare workers, etc etc etc—and they’re going to take note of who tried to pitch in in whatever way they could in order to ease the weight on another where possible. 

If CAF hadn't lifted a finger/hadn’t agreed to aid communities in any way, shape or form in whatever manner capable, it would get noticed. And bad PR isn’t something the CAF needs, especially in this climate. Whether _anyone_ feels CAF is qualified to be assisting in any given scenario is irrelevant. What will be important is that they assisted where able/needed.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Free online 'threat blocker' launched in Canada as successful COVID-19 scams multiply*
> 
> Canadian Internet Registration Authority teamed up with spy agency on service to thwart malicious websites
> 
> As the number of successful pandemic-related scams continues to grow online, Canada's cyber spy agency is helping to launch a new — and free — threat-blocking tool for all Canadians to use.
> 
> This first-of-its-kind initiative is getting tentative applause in cyber security circles, but experts caution the initiative needs to be closely watched to make sure it doesn't cross any red lines.
> 
> The Canadian Internet Registration Authority (CIRA, the not-for-profit agency that manages the .ca internet domain) and the Communications Security Establishment, Canada's foreign signals intelligence agency, teamed up on the CIRA Canadian Shield — a protected domain name system (DNS) service that prevents Canadians from connecting to malicious websites that might infect their devices and steal their personal information.
> 
> CIRA is providing the threat blocking technology while the CSE's Canadian Centre for Cyber Security is offering its threat intelligence services — basically a who's-who list of every bad actor roaming the web.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/free-cyber-blocker-cse-1.5542888
> 
> https://cyber.gc.ca/en/canadian-shield-sharing-cyber-centres-threat-intelligence-protect-canadians-during-covid-19


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

The  hours swerve was split off....unlocked and ready for business.
Bruce


----------



## stellarpanther

MJP said:
			
		

> So go that one step further and where is that quote from?  What context where they saying it in?  Is there a link?  I broadly see the point but without context the quote alone is useless.
> 
> At the end of the day we will always fill in the gaps for Canada and Canadians, it is part and parcel of the unlimited liability aspect of our job.  We can and will be ordered to fill roles that we have no specialization in because we are available and at the end of the day we are there for Canadians.



It's in this article that someone posted earlier.  There is another article that also discusses it more in depth that I'm trying to find as well.

https://cdainstitute.ca/vimy-paper-44/


----------



## Weinie

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The  hours swerve was split off....unlocked and ready for business.
> Bruce



"Did you split the thread?

"You're goddamn right I did" in his best Col. Nathan R. Jessep snarl.

Thanks Bruce


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Weinie said:
			
		

> "Did you split the thread?
> 
> "You're goddamn right I did" in his best Col. Nathan R. Jessep snarl.
> 
> Thanks Bruce



Hey, it's why Mike pays me good mo.....ah shoot, I forgot to ask for a salary this time.


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> It was brought up earlier in the thread that (paraphrasing) ‘it isn’t CAF’s job to go into nursing homes and such, and that there are apparently those complaining who wouldn’t want military pers tending to their loved ones who aren’t medically/appropriately trained or whatever.’
> 
> This isn’t based on any policy or anything; simply my POV.
> 
> After all is said and done, every single facet of society is going to be critiquing every other single facet of society—private & public sector, business owners, home owners, single people, married, those with kids, those without, social assistance recipients, salaried employees, those who were laid off, those who weren’t, healthcare workers, etc etc etc—and they’re going to take note of who tried to pitch in in whatever way they could in order to ease the weight on another where possible.
> 
> If CAF hadn't lifted a finger/hadn’t agreed to aid communities in any way, shape or form in whatever manner capable, it would get noticed. And bad PR isn’t something the CAF needs, especially in this climate. Whether _anyone_ feels CAF is qualified to be assisting in any given scenario is irrelevant. What will be important is that they assisted where able/needed.



Speaking as a pensioner, the only real sure thing in this town is that they come when you dial 9-1-1.


----------



## Weinie

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> It was brought up earlier in the thread that (paraphrasing) ‘it isn’t CAF’s job to go into nursing homes and such, and that there are apparently those complaining who wouldn’t want military pers tending to their loved ones who aren’t medically/appropriately trained or whatever.’
> 
> This isn’t based on any policy or anything; simply my POV.
> 
> After all is said and done, every single facet of society is going to be critiquing every other single facet of society—private & public sector, business owners, home owners, single people, married, those with kids, those without, social assistance recipients, salaried employees, those who were laid off, those who weren’t, healthcare workers, etc etc etc—and they’re going to take note of who tried to pitch in in whatever way they could in order to ease the weight on another where possible.
> 
> If CAF hadn't lifted a finger/hadn’t agreed to aid communities in any way, shape or form in whatever manner capable, it would get noticed. And bad PR isn’t something the CAF needs, especially in this climate. Whether _anyone_ feels CAF is qualified to be assisting in any given scenario is irrelevant. What will be important is that they assisted where able/needed.



Our job, and it has been since I joined thirty seven years ago, and has been since the Canadian military was first formed, is to protect Canada and Canadians. How that manifests is irrelevant, we go where we are needed to go, and we do what we are needed to do. Simple credo that I have adopted, helps to focus things.


----------



## mariomike

USNS Comfort To Leave New York City.

https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-nyc/usns-comfort-leave-new-york-city-pentagon-says

The hospital ship treated fewer than 200 patients during its time in New York, federal officials said.


----------



## lenaitch

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Two pieces:
> 
> 
> 1) CGAI:
> 
> 2) CDAI, much more broad and analytic--brief excerpt:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Interesting academic analysis by the CDA.  It's a valid question to ponder how 'aid to the civil power' impacts the other CF mandates.  It's probably a good question how any given mandate affects the others.  I think it is a little tone deaf on suggesting that a nationwide civilian emergency management organization might be more appropriate.  There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that the Canadian public would tolerate a separate multi-billion organization to do what most feel the CF is properly positioned to do.  And calling for a judicial inquiry is a bit over the top.


----------



## stellarpanther

These are the last 2 paragraphs from the article in case some didn't want to read all of it.  IMO, it does raise a lot of good questions.  Just my opinion but I do think Canadians would except the creation of a new agency such as FEMA if the benefits of it vs using the CAF was clearly explained.

*"The CAF will always be ready to defend Canada and help Canadians through a crisis, but are they properly mandated and should they be tasked with the increasing domestic duties they have been asked to take on? Is placing such burdens on the CAF fair to its members and the public and what are the public’s expectations of its military? Is a more dedicated force, either functionally tasked to do so within the military, or a new civilian agency, a better fit to meet the growing demand from domestic emergencies?  These are questions that do not have easy answers. Further, they are not exclusively, or even primarily, questions of logistics, funding, or technical capabilities. Above all, they are questions that must be answered by policymakers and the public at a more overarching political level and rest on fundamental beliefs about what their military is for.
For too long, the question of what Canadians expect from their military, and to what extent they are comfortable with military personnel operating on the Homefront in peacetime, has gone without serious consideration. Rather, this drift into serving as the de facto disaster response option for the federal government has been a result of reflexive policy-making without a clear vision of the future. The COVID-19 pandemic is not the first scenario to raise these questions, but it could prove definitive in charting the path forward."

*


----------



## blacktriangle

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Interesting academic analysis by the CDA.  It's a valid question to ponder how 'aid to the civil power' impacts the other CF mandates.  It's probably a good question how any given mandate affects the others.  I think it is a little tone deaf on suggesting that a nationwide civilian emergency management organization might be more appropriate.  There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that the Canadian public would tolerate a separate multi-billion organization to do what most feel the CF is properly positioned to do.  And calling for a judicial inquiry is a bit over the top.



Actually, I could see people supporting an expansion of civilian emergency management at all levels, including Federal. If the budget is to be a zero-sum game, I would expect the CAF to be on the losing end of the equation. Not to mention that many CAF personnel may be uniquely qualified to move into newly created, civilian positions. 

At the same time, if I were a civilian bureaucrat, I'm not sure I'd want the risk that comes with being responsible for these sort of tasks. So perhaps the military will get the nod when this is all over. 

I'm not sure that either scenario will be great for the general-purpose combat capability of the CAF, though.


----------



## daftandbarmy

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Actually, I could see people supporting an expansion of civilian emergency management at all levels, including Federal. If the budget is to be a zero-sum game, I would expect the CAF to be on the losing end of the equation. Not to mention that many CAF personnel may be uniquely qualified to move into newly created, civilian positions.
> 
> At the same time, if I were a civilian bureaucrat, I'm not sure I'd want the risk that comes with being responsible for these sort of tasks. So perhaps the military will get the nod when this is all over.
> 
> I'm not sure that either scenario will be great for the general-purpose combat capability of the CAF, though.



Wildfire management staff are well trained and prepared for their role, and are civilians. No reason why we shouldn’t have equivalent units for biohazard response...

... except lack of imagination of course.


----------



## Jarnhamar

If the CAF is going to continue to be used like this then we should get an increase in budget for equipment and revamp the procurement system.


----------



## GR66

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Interesting academic analysis by the CDA.  It's a valid question to ponder how 'aid to the civil power' impacts the other CF mandates.  It's probably a good question how any given mandate affects the others.  I think it is a little tone deaf on suggesting that a nationwide civilian emergency management organization might be more appropriate.  There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that the Canadian public would tolerate a separate multi-billion organization to do what most feel the CF is properly positioned to do.  And calling for a judicial inquiry is a bit over the top.



Regardless of whether a separate agency makes sense, or if it's likely to happen, I think that anything that puts the CF our there in the public eye in a positive light is a good thing.  As the old saying goes "there's no such thing as bad publicity"


----------



## Quirky

*"In normal time, there are 1000 death per month in the CHSLD " – Dr. Arruda 2020*
https://themostbeautifulworld.com/blog/arruda

Quebec's top officials (Dr. Arruda - Director of Public Health) told the public: 


> “Let me remind it to you that each year, in normal time, there is around 1000 death per month in the CHSLD. And, after all, we need to understand that the deceased that we count associated to COVID19, would have occurred anyway.”
> We cannot keep a society locked up like this.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

The deaths attributed to “...Covid-19 anyway...” yes, perhaps some may have. But that incredibly narrow-sighted statement cannot be applied to all of them, which still have included those under 50 with no and/or extremely low risk underlying conditions. That is a highly irresponsible and flippant statement.

Society isn’t going to remain as it is currently. That’s a fact. Eventually things will return to relative normal (or a new norm.) Our government(s) realizes that it’s not in anyone’s best interest to keep things shuttered and are fervently formulating the best way forward.

Edit to add: and yea, there’s certainly no agenda at all behind the source...


----------



## Quirky

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Edit to add: and yea, there’s certainly no agenda at all behind the source...



Oh the blog is certain garbage, however Dr. Arruda said what he did. He could easily be an "expert" in place of Dr. Tam right now with different views on the matter.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If the CAF is going to continue to be used like this then we should get an increase in budget for equipment and revamp the procurement system.



If you believe that, then might as well ask for a unicorn too. The only time we're going to get something fixed is if Canada calls and the CDS has the testicular fortitude to say we cannot do it because you've sacked our budget/can't procure the right equipment.


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you believe that, then might as well ask for a unicorn too. The only time we're going to get something fixed is if Canada calls and the *CDS has the testicular fortitude to say we cannot do it because you've sacked our budget/can't procure the right equipment.*



That would require him to fall on a sword I don't think he or any other staff Officer is willing to make, then again I have been proven wrong before, but unless such an event is made public, Joe blow and the media won't care.


----------



## stellarpanther

I still believe what I said in my earlier post that the public or at least parts of it doesn't believe in using the military for nursing homes.  The problem however is that government, private homes etc won't do the right thing and hire sufficient numbers of employees.  I understand there is a shortage of PSW's but speaking to a  cousin who's in that line of work, the problem is there is shortage because people don't go into that line of work because of the lack of pay.  An example I heard is that someone could earn more at Walmart.  She said she wasn't joking.  It's, the same with police, paramedics etc, they get paid well but not enough are hired.  For years in Ottawa they've been saying at certain times, there are no paramedics available to respond to calls.  There's a shortage of police, yet there is no shortage of qualified applicants.   I'm sure it's probably the same for a lot of professions.   Provinces then run to the military to help them and of course the leadership is going to say yes, what else could they say?


----------



## PuckChaser

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> That would require him to fall on a sword I don't think he or any other staff Officer is willing to make, then again I have been proven wrong before, but unless such an event is made public, Joe blow and the media won't care.



Current CDS is done shortly or if there's a new government. He's already almost the longest serving CDS we've had (according to Wikipedia). But this obviously isn't the situation that makes sense for him to do it. What do we need to accomplish this mission? Troops, gloves, facemasks. He's got all 3.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> Oh the blog is certain garbage, however Dr. Arruda said what he did. He could easily be an "expert" in place of Dr. Tam right now with different views on the matter.



Considering Quebec leads the country by sizeable margins in cases and deaths, it’s in his best interest to down-play where at all possible in order to maintain his popularity and calm within the province, as well as the Premier’s.

People can have issue and disagree with Dr. Tam, and the info she distributes. But as has already been discussed, she has a greater number of experts behind her organizing the info coming in from all angles and releasing it for all Canadians to the best of her ability with what she’s been presented at the time. Regardless of any faults people have with her (founded or unfounded), there is a much larger percentage of those supporting her than the skewed and out of context stats that certain others prefer to try and garner a following for.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=PuckChaser]say we cannot do it because you've sacked our budget/can't procure the right equipment.
[/quote]
This is our fault. Everything is a no fail task. We always manage to make due with less, which means less is the new standard. And the next time something comes up we make due with less.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We always manage to make due with less, which means less is the new standard. And the next time something comes up we make due with less.


I realize this is probably about equipment but it's staff as well and it makes me think of a conversation I had recently with an FSA.

I'm hearing this second hand so maybe important info was left out but I heard from an FSA in at one base a month or so ago that both the FSA's and the HRA's are extremely short staffed to the point people are either quitting, going on stress leave or putting in for OT. In the last year in a small OR, almost half of the HRA's either went on  stress leave or quit.  Apparently one of the guys spoke up and they gave him extra duties when he was apparently trying to do the right thing.  The WO's of both trades and Officer's apparently know there's a shortage but nothing is done about it yet they still deploy or accepting new tasks people making the remaining mbr's work even harder until they burnout. This type of thing where we just keep on chugging with not enough supplies or staff has been happening for years and isn't getting better. Part of me wonders if it's because the top leadership in the CAF isn't being made aware just how bad some of the shortages and morale are.  I think we've all been told when higher up's ask how things are going, we always tell them fine and don't complain.  I've personally known a few people who have spoken up in the NCR to the CDS or C Navy for example and when they hear about things, stuff usually happens and things improve.


----------



## MJP

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I realize this is probably about equipment but it's staff as well and it makes me think of a conversation I had recently with an FSA.
> 
> I'm hearing this second hand so maybe important info was left out but I heard from an FSA in at one base a month or so ago that both the FSA's and the HRA's are extremely short staffed to the point people are either quitting, going on stress leave or putting in for OT. In the last year in a small OR, almost half of the HRA's either went on  stress leave or quit.  Apparently one of the guys spoke up and they gave him extra duties when he was apparently trying to do the right thing.  The WO's of both trades and Officer's apparently know there's a shortage but nothing is done about it yet they still deploy or accepting new tasks people making the remaining mbr's work even harder until they burnout. This type of thing where we just keep on chugging with not enough supplies or staff has been happening for years and isn't getting better. Part of me wonders if it's because the top leadership in the CAF isn't being made aware just how bad some of the shortages and morale are.  I think we've all been told when higher up's ask how things are going, we always tell them fine and don't complain.  I've personally known a few people who have spoken up in the NCR to the CDS or C Navy for example and when they hear about things, stuff usually happens and things improve.



It is becoming a big issue in terms of manning.   Part of it due top no one really rationalizing or realizing the amount of tasks done by both parties that are now shared across uneven pools of manpower.  

It doesn't help that despite technology most of our processes are stuck in old school mode that need human intervention at every step. 

In this case there is no short term good solution, in the meantime orgs needs to be ruthless in stamping out tasks that don't have a direct HRA or FSA nexus to give them space to operate and not burn out folks. 

This really shouldn't be in this thread as it really isn't COVID related tho


----------



## stellarpanther

Some of those left off the temporary pay increase list not happy.  I'm waiting for CAF mbr's working in Nursing Homes to ask for a raise.  Just joking!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-sunday-paramedics-pandemic-pay-1.5545456


----------



## FJAG

> *The pandemic could end up changing everything — including the military*
> 
> Governments are getting used to calling in soldiers when domestic disaster strikes
> 
> Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Apr 26,
> 
> It's safe to say that the Canadian military plans for just about everything.
> 
> It's also safe to say that nowhere in the dusty stacks of military strategies for various hair-raising scenarios shelved in the Department of National Defence (DND) is a plan for sending soldiers to long-term care homes to backstop failing provincial systems. Hospitals, maybe — not seniors homes.
> 
> But pandemics have a way of re-ordering priorities. Which explains how a niche project — one of those nice-to-have items of equipment the military keeps on its wish list — can suddenly rocket through the ponderous federal procurement maze in a matter of days. ...
> 
> Within the military and the larger defence community, there's a growing debate over whether the novel coronavirus pandemic, and governments' extraordinary responses to it, represent a watershed moment — or simply a ghastly one-off event that will soon be forgotten.
> 
> That debate is posing some large questions. Is this pandemic going to force Canada to redefine what we consider to be 'national security'? And if pandemics remain a lingering threat, how and when should the military be employed to respond?....



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-coronavirus-military-canada-1.5544854

Hopefully this will only be a moment for fine tuning the military and not one of radical change in the direction of catering to filling the holes in domestic operations that should remain the primary responsibility of the provincial governments to deal with at the local level.

We have a silly way of always restructuring and preparing ourselves to fight the last war. When the Soviet block fell we restructured ourselves to be a middle weight force and fought that way in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is over and we are still a middle weight force avoiding the serious issues arising out of Russia and China that should have us restructure. 

We've already oriented our reserves part-way to local disaster response which is really not the purpose of a "military reserve" force just a thing we may need to do in extraordinary events by which I do not include annual flooding of shorelines where no one should have built houses in the first place nor the hundreds of forest fires which burn across our country every summer. Again, those should be the role of a civilian volunteer force organized, equipped and paid for by the provinces.

Let's hope that providing military support in the event of a pandemic doesn't become part of our "military" mandate. This one was an extraordinary event and our response was and is appropriate. Now that we've experienced one, the role of the civilian side, especially the medical side, of the provincial and federal governments needs to set up and prepare the appropriate response with everything from medical supply stockpiles (including drugs) and domestic manufacturing facilities that can quickly ramp up (why were our domestic clothing manufacturers not directed to manufacture PPE month ago?), to proper emergency response teams and procedures to care for vulnerable individuals, such as in care homes, to the establishment of emergency care facilities to isolate and treat virus patients, to the continuation of routine medical services in hospitals for other, non viral, health threatening conditions.

Let's also hope that the financial outlay by provincial and federal governments does not threaten the funding needed by the military to the point that our ability to respond to "military" threats crippled even more than it already is.

And finally, let's hope that our military leadership will respond properly to any such funding constraints (and yes, they will come) by finally, once and for all, solving the way that DND/CAF wastes money on the vast numbers of full-time civilian and military personnel buried within our bureaucratic national headquarters.

 :2c:


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm just curious, if a vaccine is developed for this virus, how many will go right out to get it?  I'm not sure I want to be one of the first in line.


----------



## MJP

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, if a vaccine is developed for this virus, how many will go right out to get it?  I'm not sure I want to be one of the first in line.



The good thing is as a CAF mbr you will likely have no choice so that is solved far ya!


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Some of those left off the temporary pay increase list not happy.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-sunday-paramedics-pandemic-pay-1.5545456



From the quoted article,

A day in the life of a paramedic during COVID-19
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-paramedic-during-covid-19-1.5519298

Apparently, The Province of Ontario does not consider paramedics during a pandemic to be front-line.


----------



## stellarpanther

MJP said:
			
		

> The good thing is as a CAF mbr you will likely have no choice so that is solved far ya!



I'm not sure about that.  When the vaccine for H1N1 came out, mbr's were told by the CoC to go get it, many refused and the medical folks told several mbr's they can no longer be ordered to get it.  Just like they can't make you accept treatment for an illness and you won't be released unless it affects your performance.  I heard some units outside of Ottawa were told they have no choice and got it.  I received it but I'd say probably about 30 percent of the unit I was in at the time refused it.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about that.  When the vaccine for H1N1 came out, mbr's were told by the CoC to go get it, many refused and the medical folks told several mbr's they can no longer be ordered to get it.  Just like they can't make you accept treatment for an illness and you won't be released unless it affects your performance.  I heard some units outside of Ottawa were told they have no choice and got it.  I received it but I'd say probably about 30 percent of the unit I was in at the time refused it.




Whatever the CAF policy is,

In Ontario, 


> Paramedics face dismissal for refusing flu shots
> https://www.cmaj.ca/content/166/6/796.1


----------



## stellarpanther

For those in Ontario with kids in school, it was just announced that schools will remain closed until at least 31 May. 

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/04/26/ontario-extends-public-school-closures-until-may-31


----------



## stellarpanther

mariomike said:
			
		

> I don't know what the current CAF policy is.
> 
> But, in Ontario,



I'm not sure I support dismissal for them.  My SIL works is a healthcare worker in a Nursing Home and doesn't believe in the flu shot.  During flu season she is required to wear a mask when dealing with the patients.


----------



## MJP

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about that.  When the vaccine for H1N1 came out, mbr's were told by the CoC to go get it, many refused and the medical folks told several mbr's they can no longer be ordered to get it.  Just like they can't make you accept treatment for an illness and you won't be released unless it affects your performance.  I heard some units outside of Ottawa were told they have no choice and got it.  I received it but I'd say probably about 30 percent of the unit I was in at the time refused it.



So 30% of your unit could potentially be Karen on Facebook....I giggled because the Karen=some CAF mbrs is pretty apt comparison in the way they complain and whine and moan.

Mostly kidding aside, H1N1 didn't shut down the world, so my bet is on we will be told to get vaccinated.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *After a week of zero cases, New Brunswick reopens parks and beaches*
> 
> New Brunswick has begun to loosen some of its physical distancing measures after its seventh straight day with no new cases of COVID-19.
> 
> The Atlantic province laid out a timeline this week for slowly reopening businesses and moving towards a “new normal.”
> 
> As part of the first stage, which became effective on Friday, parks and beaches have been reopened, golf courses are back in business, universities and colleges can open parts of their campuses for students in certain circumstances, and religious services can be held again as long as they are outside with physical distancing measures in place.
> 
> New Brunswick households can also socialize again — but only with one other household, as long as both households agree. Large gatherings are still banned.
> 
> A statement issued Friday from the premier’s office praised the province’s success in keeping COVID-19 largely contained thus far.
> 
> While New Brunswick residents scan their list of friends to choose one household to socialize with, a vocal minority in Ontario are ignoring health recommendations and expressing their anger.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/after-a-week-of-zero-cases-new-brunswick-reopens-parks-and-beaches-1.4912228


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, if a vaccine is developed for this virus, how many will go right out to get it?  I'm not sure I want to be one of the first in line.



I'm sure there's plenty of no-hook privates who would volunteer.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=FJAG]

Hopefully this will only be a moment for fine tuning the military and not one of radical change in the direction of catering to filling the holes in domestic operations that should remain the primary responsibility of the provincial governments to deal with at the local level.[/quote]

I was just thinking of this. The CAF responding to floods seems to be the norm. Expected? Are the provinces really incentivized to be as prepared as they can be thinking the CAF will be there to swoop in?


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I support dismissal for them.



Mandatory for paramedics in Ontario ,

Tetanus Diphtheria: Primary series (3 doses) if unimmunized
Tetanus diphtheria (Td) booster doses every 10 years

Polio Primary series (3 doses) if previously unimmunized or unknown polio immunization history

Pertussis 1 single dose of tetanus diphtheria acellular pertussis (Tdap) vaccine
regardless of age if not previously received in adulthood

Varicella  (Chickenpox) 2 doses if no evidence of immunity

Measles 2 doses if no evidence of immunity regardless of age

Mumps 2 doses if no evidence of immunity

Rubella 1 single dose if no evidence of immunity

Hepatitis B 2 – 4 age appropriate doses and serologic testing within 1 to 6 months after completing the series.
Rubella 1

https://www.myhealthunit.ca/en/health-professionals-partners/resources/designated-officers/Communicable_Disease_Standards_-_August_1_2015.pdf


----------



## BeyondTheNow

> New Zealand demonstrates what a truly effective coronavirus lockdown looks like.
> 
> Joe NoceraApril 24, 2020, 8:00 AM EDT
> My son Nick lives in New Zealand, which has done a remarkable job fighting the coronavirus. As of Friday, the nation of 4.8 million people had 1,456 confirmed cases and only 17 deaths. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s government is now talking about not just containing the virus but eliminating it.
> 
> It helps that New Zealand is an island nation that can seal itself off from the rest of the world. It also helps that it has a centralized national health system. But as Nick explained to me the other day, Ardern has also imposed a lockdown unlike anything in the U.S.
> 
> New Zealanders aren’t allowed to drive except in emergencies and can only be out of the house for an hour a day, to get exercise or to buy essentials. (The police are enforcing the one-hour limit, Nick says.) At the pharmacy, only one customer is allowed in at a time, and clerks retrieve the goods from the shelf and put it in a bag, so customers never touch anything until they return home. The wait to get in the grocery store is usually around an hour, and if customers don’t have mask and gloves, they don’t get in.
> 
> Here’s what truly caught my attention. When I asked Nick how often he ordered take-out food, he said never. Every restaurant is closed. So is every shop aside from grocery stores and drugstores. There are no deliveries. E-commerce has been halted. Food-processing companies still operate, but virtually every other form of blue-collar work is shut down. (Citizens are surviving financially with emergency checks from the government.)
> 
> To put it another way, essential workers in New Zealand are truly essential. Although there are Covid-19 clusters in New Zealand — a church; a rest home; a wedding party — workplaces have largely been virus-free.
> 
> Compare that with the U.S. At a Smithfield pork plant in South Dakota, more than 700 workers have been infected. Dozens of other U.S. meat-packing plants also have high rates of infection, according to an investigation by USA Today. The Boeing Co., which shut down for a month, is calling back 27,000 workers to its Puget Sound facility in Washington — even though the state’s stay-at-home order will remain in place for at least two more weeks. As of early April, 135 Boeing workers had tested positive for the virus.
> 
> General Dynamics owns the Bath Iron Works, a Naval shipbuilder in Maine. In early April, the union asked the company to shut it down after a worker tested positive for Covid-19. The company says it can’t do so because the U.S. Navy is insisting that it stay open.
> 
> Indeed, according to Defense One, a website that covers the defense industry, the Pentagon has been so insistent that military contractors stay open that executives are worried that the government is forcing them to “choose between sending employees to factories or defaulting on contracts.” They’ve largely decided to send employees to factories: Bloomberg News reports that only 86 of the 10,509 defense industry sites have closed because of the virus.
> 
> Meanwhile, FedEx Corp. and United Parcel Service Inc. continue to deliver packages as if nothing were amiss, even though in Houston alone at least 25 package workers have come down with the virus — three each from the two delivery companies, as well as 19 people who work for Amazon.com Inc. (The three companies told a Houston Chronicle reporter that they were taking steps to protect workers.)
> 
> Ah, yes, Amazon, the company so many are relying on to get products they can’t get with so many stores closed. At Amazon headquarters in Seattle, the white-collar employees are working from home. But those hundreds of thousands of blue-collar employees working in the company’s enormous warehouses are still going to work every day. Amazon isn’t saying how many of its workers have come down with the virus, but reports surfaced in late March that at least 10 warehouses had coronavirus victims.
> 
> The pandemic has led to some sporadic protests from Amazon workers who contend that the company is forcing them to work in unsafe conditions. Amazon, for its part, insists that it is going above and beyond to protect its blue-collar work force. In response to an article in Tech Crunch, the company said that “masks, temperature checks, hand sanitizer, increased time off, increased pay, and more are standard across our network because we care deeply about the health and safety of our employees.”
> 
> Is Amazon shipping goods that are essential? Of course. You can get toilet paper and paper towels from Amazon (though the primo brands appear to be out of stock). But it’s also still selling everything else, much of which is not essential at all.
> 
> We’ve all learned that the virus spreads between people who are in close proximity. No matter how much Amazon says it is protecting its workers, they are inevitably going to come into close contact with one another at least some of the time. And why? Because the company hopes to use the crisis to further solidify its dominance of online shopping? That hardly seems like a good enough reason.
> 
> There are two issues here, it seems to me, one practical and one moral. The practical issue is that warehouses and factories full of workers are coronavirus spreaders. That should seem pretty obvious by now. If the Bath Iron Works stopped building ships for three or four months, would that truly harm the national defense? If meat processors used fewer workers standing further apart, it would likely mean a short-term meat shortage. But it might also mean flattening the curve more quickly.
> 
> And if Amazon decided that it would ship only truly essential goods, that might not further its growth strategy, but it might prevent some workers from getting Covid-19. The U.S. has categorized as “essential” a ridiculous number of businesses. Yes, we can get whatever we want online, virus or not. But at what cost?
> 
> The moral issue is this: We take it for granted that blue-collar workers will risk infection from a deadly virus to provide the society with the things it wants — whether it’s a ship or a pair of sneakers bought online. Yet the white-collar work force is largely avoiding that same risk by quarantining themselves at home.
> 
> It pricks the conscience — or at least it should. We talk about the heroism of doctors and nurses, of grocery clerks and bus drivers. And they are heroes. They are also the truly essential.
> 
> Thousands of other workers are putting themselves on the line for no good reason other than their bosses are demanding it. Following New Zealand’s lead would mean white-collar types would have to make some small sacrifices. But if we return to what essential truly means, we may also save lives.




 https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/opinion/articles/2020-04-24/coronavirus-and-blue-collar-workers-the-toll-is-too-high?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## stellarpanther

MJP said:
			
		

> So 30% of your unit could potentially be Karen on Facebook....I giggled because the Karen=some CAF mbrs is pretty apt comparison in the way they complain and whine and moan.
> 
> Mostly kidding aside, H1N1 didn't shut down the world, so my bet is on we will be told to get vaccinated.



I worked in one of the larger units at NDHQ at the time and everyone was running around asking the other if they were going to get it.  Sounds like it will be a while before we get it so we'll see.  As far as H1N1, we didn't do shut downs but it seemed like the world was ending based on he reactions back then.

It's no secret on here that I'm quite opinionated but I'm not out to get myself into trouble, at work I usually know when to keep my mouth shut.  I've seen people speak their minds on FB with their names showing and be convinced a charge would be coming.  I'm surprised what some people get away with.


----------



## Quirky

FJAG said:
			
		

> Hopefully this will only be a moment for fine tuning the military and not one of radical change in the direction of catering to filling the holes in domestic operations that should remain the primary responsibility of the provincial governments to deal with at the local level.



When the Army isn't busy with fighting, that's thousands of idle, youngish, fit hands that can help out in all sorts of GD roles and the provinces know this. Now is a great time to either join in a trade or OT to one. Unless you like the wide variety of assignments, being a pew pew soldier one day, to fighting forest fires, filling sandbags or mopping up after old folks in care homes. If you don't care doing things outside your trade 'scope' then my hats off to you. There needs to be a line drawn IMO, the CF (more like Army since realistically I don't ever see AF or Navy techs doing those tasks unless they volunteer) isn't Canada's crap shovel, we are far too expensive to fit that role.  :2c:



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've seen people speak their minds on FB with their names showing and be convinced a charge would be coming.  I'm surprised what some people get away with.



This is why you need two FB accounts. Keep yours clean and use the other for BS posting and your opinions. Too many people take offence to crap and if the wrong snowflake in your unit gets offended, it's game over.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've seen people speak their minds on FB with their names showing and be convinced a charge would be coming.



Social media may be the greatest career killer ever invented. 



			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> So before you post, imagine you're in uniform, talking to a room full of the press, 14 year old kids, your CO, and your grandmother.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm sure there's plenty of no-hook privates who would volunteer.



Clarity on intent here?

I don’t know current policy on orders for vaccines if not being deployed off the top of my head. But I’d like to think that all, regardless of rank, will weigh the option accordingly given the seriousness and scale of cases and spread.


----------



## stellarpanther

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Clarity on intent here?
> 
> I don%u2019t know current policy on orders for vaccines if not being deployed off the top of my head. But I%u2019d like to think that all, regardless of rank, will weigh the option accordingly given the seriousness and scale of cases and spread.



I'm concerned that a vaccine will be rushed without normal safeguards and might lead to unintended side effects/death.  The 1976 fiasco as the article puts it comes to mind.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, if a vaccine is developed for this virus, how many will go right out to get it?  I'm not sure I want to be one of the first in line.



Interesting that you bring up vaccines in such a light . . . well, not really, nor a totally unexpected viewpoint . . . 

However, as I was doing a quick search of references about refusing immunizations came across this.

https://963kklz.com/2020/04/24/mmr-vaccination-might-be-the-reason-younger-people-are-at-less-risk-for-covid-19/
MMR Vaccination Might Be The Reason Younger People Are At Less Risk For COVID-19


> rgonzalez   April 24th
> 
> A study from the University of Cambridge suggests those who received the MMR vaccine (Measles, Mumps and Rubella) may have some protection against SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> They found a 29% similarity between the Rubella virus and SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> Lead authors state the structure of Rubella may be similar enough to that of the novel coronavirus that the immunity induced from the MMR vaccine may be providing protection during this pandemic of SARS-CoV-2.
> 
> Vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella came out in the early 1960’s. So those over 60 may not have received the vaccine. Coronavirus appears to be deadlier in this same population.
> 
> The MMR is given to children between 12-15 months with a booster at 4-6 years old.




The study (which is not yet peer-reviewed) is available as a preprint at

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.10.20053207v1.full.pdf+html

Homologous protein domains in SARS-CoV-2 and measles, mumps and rubella viruses: preliminary evidence that MMR vaccine might provide protection against COVID-19


> Abstract
> The COVID-19 disease is one of worst pandemics to sweep the globe in recent times. It is noteworthy
> that the disease has its greatest impact on the elderly. Herein, we investigated the potential of
> childhood vaccination, specifically against measles, mumps and rubella (MMR), to identify if this could
> potentially confer acquired protection over SARS-CoV-2. We identified sequence homology between
> the fusion proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and measles and mumps viruses. Moreover, we also identified a
> 29% amino acid sequence homology between the Macro (ADP-ribose-1’’-phosphatase) domains of
> SARS-CoV-2 and rubella virus. The rubella Macro domain has surface-exposed conserved residues and
> is present in the attenuated rubella virus in MMR. Hence, we hypothesize that MMR could protect
> against poor outcome in COVID-19 infection. As an initial test of this hypothesis, we identified that 1)
> age groups that most likely lack of MMR vaccine-induced immunity had the poorest outcome in
> COVID-19, and 2) COVID-19 disease burden correlates with rubella antibody titres, potentially induced
> by SARS-CoV2 homologous sequences. We therefore propose that vaccination of ‘at risk’ age groups
> with an MMR vaccination merits further consideration as a time appropriate and safe intervention.
> 
> . . .
> 
> 4. Conclusion
> SARS-CoV2 Spike glycoproteins are class I viral membrane fusion proteins that share structural
> similarities with the Fusion proteins from both measles and mumps viruses. The Macro domains of
> SARS-CoV-2 and rubella virus share 29% amino acid sequence identity. Interestingly, the residues
> conserved in the SARS-CoV-2 and rubella Macro domains include surface-exposed residues and are
> present in the attenuated rubella virus used in the MMR vaccine. We identified at a population level
> that both older populations and males are both more likely to die from COVID-19, and less likely to be
> seropositive for rubella-specific immunity, based on historical vaccination programmes of all three
> countries considered in this report. Finally, the hypothesis that this macro domain could be recognised
> by antibodies raised against rubella was supported by data that demonstrated that patients who have
> SARS-CoV2 infection had raised levels of rubella IgG to a level in keeping with secondary rubella
> infection. Taken together, we suggest that MMR will not prevent COVID-19 infection but could
> potentially reduce poor outcome. To conclude whether MMR vaccination can improve the outcomes
> from Covid-19 infection, a study using individual based data to compare MMR immunity status in the
> affected population is warranted.



If the thread had only led me to that a few days ago.  On Thursday past, I went to the immunization clinic.  Having recently turned 65, there were some immunizations that Alberta recommends (and provides without charge) to seniors, most specifically Pneumo-P.  I had booked the appointment a couple of months ago before the pandemic.  And I complained, formally, months ago about the changes that AHS had made to their immunization clinic policies and procedures that resulted in me having to wait over two months for a rather routine 5 minute interaction (or what would have been a 5 minute interaction before social distancing).

I had reviewed my yellow book before the appointment to see if there was anything else I needed updating; the obvious one being Tetanus-Diphtheria (TD) - my last one was over ten years ago so that needed updating and I questioned whether I should get Pertussis and MMR; I couldn't find any record if I had received them in the past.  Not unusual for boomers, though they had been introduced as routine immunizations while I was still serving.  In consultation with the public health nurse, I had the Pertussis (combined with TD booster - dTAP) though she stated MMR is not usually required for anyone of my age, the assumption being that we had all those as normal childhood illness and thus have acquired immunity.  If I had read this preliminary study beforehand, I probably would have requested the MMR.  Oh, if a Covid-19 vaccine is developed, I'll try to be one of the first in-line.  It's not like I haven't already received a few "experimental" immunizations.  I'm contemplating trying to make another appointment to get the MMR (of course that depends on whether they will give me that shot).


And just to provide the proper light in which to read and discuss the study.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/what-unrefereed-preprint


> Before formal publication in a scholarly journal, scientific and medical articles are traditionally certified by “peer review.” In this process, the journal’s editors take advice from various experts—called “referees”—who have assessed the paper and may identify weaknesses in its assumptions, methods, and conclusions. Typically a journal will only publish an article once the editors are satisfied that the authors have addressed referees’ concerns and that the data presented support the conclusions drawn in the paper.
> 
> Because this process can be lengthy, authors use the medRxiv service to make their manuscripts available as “preprints” before certification by peer review, allowing other scientists to see, discuss, and comment on the findings immediately. Readers should therefore be aware that articles on medRxiv have not been finalized by authors, might contain errors, and report information that has not yet been accepted or endorsed in any way by the scientific or medical community.
> 
> We also urge journalists and other individuals who report on medical research to the general public to consider this when discussing work that appears on medRxiv preprints and emphasize it has yet to be evaluated by the medical community and the information presented may be erroneous.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm concerned that a vaccine will be rushed without normal safeguards and might lead to unintended side effects/death.  The 1976 fiasco as the article puts it comes to mind.
> 
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/



Did you get the H1N1 vaccine? It started being distributed in Nov 2009 and outbreak started in Apr 2009. They’re not rushing a covid-19 vaccine, so I’m confident in saying all elements will have been sufficiently tested and explored prior to wide distribution. 

As always, there’s a very low percentage of side-effects which few experience. I’m comfortable with risks associated at this point.


----------



## ballz

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I'm contemplating trying to make another appointment to get the MMR (of course that depends on whether they will give me that shot).



I'm going off topic here and we could have a thread split here for what might turn into a bit of a heated discussion with those from the medical community, but if anybody in the CAF tells you they get arbitrarily decide what vaccinations you're allowed to have, they're wrong. I just went through this with the rabies vaccine because some random person in "community health" at our CDU didn't think I needed it and tried to deny me what is clearly covered by our healthcare. I'm still pretty irritated about the whole thing because the CDU still just doesn't seem to get it.

As long as the vaccine is covered as a regular benefit on the CAF drug benefit list, you're entitled to it. If the CDU tells you you can't have it because they just don't think you need it (which contradicts policy that it will be "dispensed without complication" IAW the CAF Spectrum of Care) you can just go to any pharmacy with your Blue Cross card.


----------



## stellarpanther

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Did you get the H1N1 vaccine?big



I did get it, probably within the first few days of it being available but my thinking has changed someone over the years.  I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but I'm also not someone who believes everything I'm told anymore either.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm concerned that a vaccine will be rushed without normal safeguards and might lead to unintended side effects/death.  The 1976 fiasco as the article puts it comes to mind.
> 
> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-swine-flu-vaccine-fiasco-180961994/



Though you have seemed to have subsequently edited out the article link for some reason, perhaps a more complete account of the "1976 fiasco" could be found such as this from the CDC.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/1/05-1007_article



> . . .
> 
> Lessons Learned
> NIIP may offer lessons for today's policymakers, who are faced with a potential pandemic of avian influenza and struggling with decisions about preventing it (Table). Two of these lessons bear further scrutiny here.
> 
> Media and Presidential Attention
> While all decisions related to NIIP had been reached in public sessions (publishing of the initial virus findings in CDC's weekly newsletter, the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR); New York Times reporter Harold Schmeck's coverage of the ACIP sessions, the president's press conference, and 4 congressional hearings), effective communication from scientifically qualified persons was lacking, and the perception prevailed that the program was motivated by politics rather than science. In retrospect (and to some observers at the time), the president's highly visible convened meeting and subsequent press conference, which included pictures of his being immunized, were mistakes. These instances seemed to underline the suspicion that the program was politically motivated, rather than a public health response to a possible catastrophe.
> 
> . . .



But it is highly unlikely there would be a repeat of such, with political motives overshadowing scientific advice.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I did get it, probably within the first few days of it being available but my thinking has changed someone over the years.  I'm not a big conspiracy theorist but I'm also not someone who believes everything I'm told anymore either.



It’s important to weigh info appropriately. But make sure the info you’re weighing more towards considering/accepting as fact isn’t from FB groups and other venues full of incomplete facts, mis/dis information, self-serving agendas, those educated from ‘Joe’s School of Higher Learning’ and all-around crack-pots. Stick to renowned scientific journals and accounts from well-known and highly qualified medical professionals, whose background is transparent wrt grants accepted, charities/causes donated to, etc.


----------



## stellarpanther

Sorry, I only removed the link to an article and was going to replace it with a better one until I got called away from the computer.


----------



## stellarpanther

In case anyone hasn't seen the latest letter from the CDS that was released Friday, it looks like many will still be off for a while.  Not that my opinion matter's, it makes sense.  I don't think many would disagree with his decision.

https://twitter.com/cds_canada_cemd?lang=en


----------



## SeaKingTacco

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, if a vaccine is developed for this virus, how many will go right out to get it?  I'm not sure I want to be one of the first in line.



I would. It is called "leadership".


----------



## blacktriangle

I always thought it was junior members that were supposed to be used as "canaries in a coal mine" in a CBRN environment. 

 ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

Can we not be ordered to take a vaccine? Not quite an order, but I remember being told in 2012 that NATO was not allowing any soldiers to deploy without a flu vaccine. Was the Anthrax vaccine in Gulf War 1 mandatory (for those that want to self identify to being that old)?


----------



## Ralph

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Can we not be ordered to take a vaccine? Not quite an order, but I remember being told in 2012 that NATO was not allowing any soldiers to deploy without a flu vaccine. Was the Anthrax vaccine in Gulf War 1 mandatory (for those that want to self identify to being that old)?



Deployments are easy. You don't want the vaccine, you DAG red.


----------



## dapaterson

Background on refusal to accept a vaccine:  Sgt Kipling was court martialled but was successfully defended against the charge.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ex-soldier-wins-court-martial-over-vaccine-1.197844


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Can we not be ordered to take a vaccine? Not quite an order, but I remember being told in 2012 that NATO was not allowing any soldiers to deploy without a flu vaccine. Was the Anthrax vaccine in Gulf War 1 mandatory (for those that want to self identify to being that old)?



I believe it was after all the legal battles regarding the Anthrax vaccine in the 90's that changed some policies regarding mbr's being forced to get vaccinations. Even treatment can be refused but if refusing treatment affects you from being able to do your job and doing the FORCE test you could be medically released.  For me anyway, I'm not saying I would refuse it outright but I might stall for a while.  If they try and force me, by the time all the back and forth with different levels of the CoC and then appealing it outside the unit CoC and asking for an review on how it could effect this or that, at least a few months will have gone by to see if it appears safe.


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Background on refusal to accept a vaccine:  Sgt Kipling was court martialled but was successfully defended against the charge.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ex-soldier-wins-court-martial-over-vaccine-1.197844



Not really no. It's a pretty technical ruling that doesn't really render any decision on the ordering of vaccines. Rather, the initial trial judge ruled in pre-trial motions that the trial would not proceed due to a perceived Charter breach, and used the 'Plea at bar of trial' mechanism to quash the charge. However 'Plea at bar of trial' is defined in QR&O 112.24, and does not actually confer authority to stop proceedings i that manner due to an alleged Charter breach. The military actually appealed this decision, and won it in 2002 at the Court Martial Appeal Court. http://canlii.ca/t/ggpzx The appeal court judge was not particularly kind to the original trial judge- in legal terms he essentially castigated the handling of the original matter as having been sloppy, and the decision by the trial judge as outside of his powers to render. The appeal court ordered a new trial. Ultimately in 2003, the military elected to stay proceedings as it was not in the public interest to move the matter forward. The defendant had already retired a few years back, and the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze.

However, the 'so what' is that the court DID NOT rule at all in any way that was upheld on the legality of ordering vaccines generally or a charge for refusing same under S.126 NDA. The military turned and walked away from prosecuting the matter rather than seeing it through. Hard to say how it would have gone had the trial been held. The appeal court did note how significant such a trial on the constitutional validity of S.126 could have been, and its applicability to other jurisdictions and laws. Alas, we have no such decision rendered.


----------



## mariomike

From Doug @ Ford Nation,



> We want to recognize and thank our healthcare heroes who are working day and night to get us through #COVID19. Effective immediately, for the next four months, workers will receive an extra $4/hr.
> https://twitter.com/fordnation/status/1254099961794514956



... not you paramedics, sit back down.


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> From Doug @ Ford Nation,
> 
> ... not you paramedics, sit back down.



Are paramedics in Ontario not already fairly well-compensated?


----------



## mariomike

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Are paramedics in Ontario not already fairly well-compensated?



Oh, way, way, OVERPAID, if you listen to the "I pay your salary!" types.  

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/102608.0.html
5 pages.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> From Doug @ Ford Nation,



If healthcare workers aren’t too busy and making tik tok videos, do they still qualify for raise?


----------



## FJAG

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not really no. It's a pretty technical ruling that doesn't really render any decision on the ordering of vaccines. Rather, the initial trial judge ruled in pre-trial motions that the trial would not proceed due to a perceived Charter breach, and used the 'Plea at bar of trial' mechanism to quash the charge. However 'Plea at bar of trial' is defined in QR&O 112.24, and does not actually confer authority to stop proceedings i that manner due to an alleged Charter breach. The military actually appealed this decision, and won it in 2002 at the Court Martial Appeal Court. http://canlii.ca/t/ggpzx The appeal court judge was not particularly kind to the original trial judge- in legal terms he essentially castigated the handling of the original matter as having been sloppy, and the decision by the trial judge as outside of his powers to render. The appeal court ordered a new trial. Ultimately in 2003, the military elected to stay proceedings as it was not in the public interest to move the matter forward. The defendant had already retired a few years back, and the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze.
> 
> However, the 'so what' is that the court DID NOT rule at all in any way that was upheld on the legality of ordering vaccines generally or a charge for refusing same under S.126 NDA. The military turned and walked away from prosecuting the matter rather than seeing it through. Hard to say how it would have gone had the trial been held. The appeal court did note how significant such a trial on the constitutional validity of S.126 could have been, and its applicability to other jurisdictions and laws. Alas, we have no such decision rendered.



Good explanation Brihard.

Small anecdote. Kipling's lawyer was lashing out left and right for various steps to delay or complicate the trial. The hearings in bar of trial took some two weeks. I played a minor role in the proceedings at the time as Prober, Kipling's lawyer, had the court issue summonses to several high ranking DND/CAF officials to be witnesses. These included General Maurice Baril, the then CDS. I got a quick call to represent the CDS in order to quash the summons, which I did.

Everyone was entirely flabbergasted by the extent to which the trial judge allowed Prober to go. The trial was highly publicized in Winnipeg and Prober has always been a bit of a show boater and it pretty much struck all of us that the judge, Guy Brais was a bit blinded by the publicity light.

Incidentally, the Chief Justice of the CMAC, Strayer, was IMHO one of the best appeal judges we ever had on that bench.

 :cheers:


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm not a legal expert... does all this legal stuff basically say it has never been tested in court as to whether the CAF can force a mbr to accept vaccinations the mbr is opposed to?


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not a legal expert... does all this legal stuff basically say it has never been tested in court as to whether the CAF can force a mbr to accept vaccinations the mbr is opposed to?



Correct. S.126 NDA makes it an offense to refuse an ordered vaccination. While the case referred to above included a sort of challenge based on Charter grounds (S.7, Life, Liberty, and Security of the Person), the matter was not ultimately resolved in such a way as to test that. So at present, that offense under the NDA stands as law.

Hypothetically, for that to be challenged properly, a CAF member would have to refuse a vaccination, be charged with S.126 NDA, take it to court martial, and then file a Charter application alleging a breach of their Charter rights and arguing to find that section of law inoperative. Certainly for CAF to order a member to take a vaccination against their will would be a Charter breach on its face, but that would then have to get tested against the Charter's 'Reasonable Limitations' clause. The crown would argue that the unique circumstances of the military are such that CAF members can be compelled, by virtue of having volunteered to serve, to do certain things they don't want to do and that in other circumstances would not be a permissible Charter breach. They would argue that to keep the force protected and healthy in the face of biological warfare threats, certain inoculations are deemed appropriate and necessary, and if they can show that there is a vaccination tested to be generally safe, there would be a fair bit of strength to that argument. The decision could be a real toss up.

I'm quite confident that were that to happen, the Court Martial judge in their written decision would probably be quite careful to note either way that they're applying the law in the very unique context of CAF members deployed operationally. If the court found that CAF CAN order people lawfully to take vaccinations, that would limit the extensibility of the legal precedent to anything non-military. On the flip side, if the judge found that even in the context of deployed operational military service a vaccine cannot be justifiably compulsory, that would have all manner of ramifications in cases elsewhere such as school boards disallowing attendance for un-vaccinated kids, etc.

Sorry, I literally just finished a constitutional law course yesterday and am still all screwed up in the front-brain.


----------



## FJAG

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not a legal expert... does all this legal stuff basically say it has never been tested in court as to whether the CAF can force a mbr to accept vaccinations the mbr is opposed to?



Essentially, that is correct.

To round that out, You can be ordered to accept a vaccination and if you refuse you can be charged under s. 126 of the NDA which states:



> 126 Every person who, on receiving an order to submit to inoculation, re-inoculation, vaccination, re-vaccination, other immunization procedures, immunity tests, blood examination or treatment against any infectious disease, wilfully and without reasonable excuse disobeys that order is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.



Note the phrase "without reasonable excuse". It is up to the prosecution to prove that you do not have a reasonable excuse and it's a question of fact as to whether or not there was a reasonable excuse.

Note as well that there are also certain Charter issues e.g. s. 2b freedom of thought or belief, s. 7 security of the person, s. 12 cruel or unusual treatment, s. 15 equality, which may or may not be relevant.

 :cheers:


----------



## stellarpanther

So here's what I'm confused about.  When I joined, I had always thought we had no choice about vaccines.  I've heard first hand from people who refused the H1N1 vaccine and last year when I was doing my medical,I was told I should get a booster for MMR and pertussis.  The nurse I saw was quite grumpy that day and when I questioned her only because I thought I would never need a booster and only wanted to understand it, she said "it's your health and your choice if you want to get it or not".  It was the same with the flu shot.  I'm surprised how many people refuse that one and the flu kills thousands of people each year yet we get the choice.  Can you guys clarify that?


----------



## FJAG

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> So here's what I'm confused about.  When I joined, I had always thought we had no choice about vaccines.  I've heard first hand from people who refused the H1N1 vaccine and last year when I was doing my medical,I was told I should get a booster for MMR and pertussis.  The nurse I saw was quite grumpy that day and when I questioned her only because I thought I would never need a booster and only wanted to understand it, she said "it's your health and your choice if you want to get it or not".  It was the same with the flu shot.  I'm surprised how many people refuse that one and the flu kills thousands of people each year yet we get the choice.  Can you guys clarify that?



The key issue is whether or not you are "ordered" to take the vaccination. I've been retired for quite a while and while early on in my career I was instructed to get vaccinated, much later on the whole thing became a little looser. Since I always took my vaccinations whenever I showed up at my medicals and the medical staff told me I was due for a shot the issue of being "ordered" never came up.

Assuming that you get operationally deployed into some third world country, I expect the issue of being required to be vaccinated will come up during your DAGing process.

 :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Child Exploitation Complaints Rise 106% To Hit 2 Million In Just One Month: Is COVID-19 To Blame?


There’s been a huge spike in reports of online child sexual exploitation during the time of COVID-19, Forbes has learned.

The U.S.-based nonprofit the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children (NCMEC) said it had recorded a 106% increase in CyberTipline reports of suspected child sexual exploitation—rising from 983,734 reports in March 2019 to 2,027,520 in the same month this year. 

The CyberTipline is huge not only for law enforcement—which initiates investigations based on tips—but also for tech companies like Facebook, Google and other social media platforms. The U.S. tech industry files reports of child exploitation images and videos found on their sites and apps to NCMEC, which then triages the tips and sends them to the relevant police agency.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2020/04/24/child-exploitation-complaints-rise-106-to-hit-2-million-in-just-one-month-is-covid-19-to-blame/#418d6adc4c9c


----------



## Remius

Ontario’s plan to re-open.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-coronavirus-ontario-economy-reopen-framework-1.5546004


----------



## mariomike

When is the last time anyone saw 21 pages of paid obituaries in a local paper?
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/26/nation/sundays-boston-globe-runs-21-pages-death-notices-coronavirus-continues-claim-lives/

Never heard of this during flu season.

The greeting card aisle offers a snapshot of the coronavirus’s tragic toll. Sympathy cards across the United States are nearly sold out in many stores.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/business/coronavirus-sympathy-cards.html

“It seems just about everyone knows someone who has died,” one card maker said, helping to explain why the cards are now hard to find at many stores.

In stores, next to an ample supply of birthday cards and thank you notes, the sympathy cards are nearly all sold out.


----------



## stellarpanther

Watch the Prime Minister speak this morning he said something that I've only heard spoken about by a few experts, what if we can't develop a vaccine?  For years, researchers have been trying to develop a vaccine for things like HIV and malaria and dengue and others.  I do think it's something we need to consider.


----------



## Kat Stevens

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Watch the Prime Minister speak this morning he said something that I've only heard spoken about by a few experts, what if we can't develop a vaccine?  For years, researchers have been trying to develop a vaccine for things like HIV and malaria and dengue and others.  I do think it's something we need to consider.



I can always count on you for my daily infusion of feel good vibes and positive, can-do attitude. I bet you're a riot at parties.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Then life goes on as it has for eternity.  We come up with ways to extend our life timeline and Mother Nature works to shorten our life timeline......


----------



## stellarpanther

Target Up said:
			
		

> I can always count on you for my daily infusion of feel good vibes and positive, can-do attitude. I bet you're a riot at parties.



Glad I can be here for you. lol

Believe it or not I'm a very cheerful person and always joking around but thinking practical and thinking of negative outcomes to a particular situation has helped me cope with realities over the years so I'm not shocked if something doesn't go as I want.


----------



## Kat Stevens

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Glad I can be here for you. lol
> 
> Believe it or not I'm a very cheerful person and always joking around but thinking practical and thinking of negative outcomes to a particular situation has helped me cope with realities over the years so I'm not shocked if something doesn't go as I want.



I completely get that. But. In the little corner of the army I somewhat grew up in we had an expression, "hope for the best but plan for the worst".  In other words, keep your chin up. Just don't be surprised when someone kicks it in.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Watch the Prime Minister speak this morning he said something that I've only heard spoken about by a few experts, what if we can't develop a vaccine?  For years, researchers have been trying to develop a vaccine for things like HIV and malaria and dengue and others.  I do think it's something we need to consider.



Then you might just get a tiny little bit of an idea of what it's like to be in the Combat Arms, just before crossing the line of departure


----------



## BDTyre

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Watch the Prime Minister speak this morning he said something that I've only heard spoken about by a few experts, what if we can't develop a vaccine?  For years, researchers have been trying to develop a vaccine for things like HIV and malaria and dengue and others.  I do think it's something we need to consider.



They estimate that malaria has killed nearly half of all humans that ever lived (somewhere around 50 billion) and yet we're all still here. I suspect we can handle SARS-COV2. We'll figure it out.


----------



## Edward Campbell

FJAG said:
			
		

> The key issue is whether or not you are "ordered" to take the vaccination. I've been retired for quite a while and while early on in my career I was [size=15pt]_*instructed*_ to get vaccinated, much later on the whole thing became a little looser. Since I always took my vaccinations whenever I showed up at my medicals and the medical staff told me I was due for a shot the issue of being "ordered" never came up.[/size]



That was exactly my experience over 36+ years. I was sent to stand in a lineup and medical people (I always hoped they were, anyway) jabbed me with something that someone in the know (I hoped) had decided I needed to do my job. No one ever asked me and I never thought of objecting. 

It is, _I think_, how things ought to be. No one ever questioned me about why radios worked ... it was my job to know and everyone else's job to do, with regard to the spectrum, exactly as I directed (and yes, now and again, someone did try me on for size ~ once it was a rather pompous one-star, speaking for an unhappy three-star. I won because my even more important three-star backed me). It was the same, for me, with the Medical Corps. I assumed they knew what was _necessary_ for me and the CF.


----------



## stellarpanther

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> They estimate that malaria has killed nearly half of all humans that ever lived (somewhere around 50 billion) and yet we're all still here. I suspect we can handle SARS-COV2. We'll figure it out.



I'm not sure I completely understand your post.  No one is saying it's going to wipeout humanity.  Even if we did nothing, most experts say it would kill a few percent of the population.  My understanding is all this is because they don't want to overwhelm the healthcare system which actually doesn't make sense to me or almost anyone I talk to including my doctor who during a phone appointment a couple weeks ago told me many doctors disagree with the approach being taken to suspend other medical care.
What's the difference if the healthcare system shuts down voluntarily to anything except emergencies or is overwhelmed by COVID-19 cases.  How many other people will die because they can't get treatment.  I have a close relative who had cancer surgery a few month ago and was supposed to have it checked to make sure they didn't miss anything or nothing grew back as this type of cancer has a high rate of reoccurrence.  The doctor wants to do the check but it needs to be done in a hospital setting but the hospital won't allow it because of current provincial regulations.  Having a conversation with someone last night, I was told this persons Grandmother has lung cancer and isn't going to make it.  They were originally told treatment would buy her more time and are now told treatment is suspended.  
Hopefully this doesn't get me banned or my ability to post blocked but I'm going to give my honest opinion on topics and speak the way I feel.  The choice many governments are making with regards to healthcare are stupid and idiotic and make no sense to me or many others.  People shouldn't die or have their lives shortened for no valid reason.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> People shouldn't die or have their lives shortened for no valid reason.


You mean like maybe kill my skin Doctor from Covid-19, so I can go get the growth on my shoulder looked at?  Naw, I don't think I'll be that selfish right now....

And I have to ask, what the hell do you think we're trying to do??


----------



## Blackadder1916

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> They estimate that malaria has killed nearly half of all humans that ever lived (somewhere around 50 billion) and yet we're all still here. I suspect we can handle SARS-COV2. We'll figure it out.



Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but while it is easy to dismiss POTUS based claims out-of-hand (not that he made any malaria related statements . . .  yet) it becomes much harder when unsubstantiated statements are presented and repeated in the great realm of social media without seeking proof.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2019/10/03/has_malaria_really_killed_half_of_everyone_who_ever_lived.html


> Has Malaria Really Killed Half of Everyone Who Ever Lived?
> 
> Across Earth's history, our planet has been home to an estimated 109 billion human beings. And according to another oft-repeated factoid, half of all the people who have ever existed were killed by malaria, the worst mosquito-borne illness. Mosquitoes aren't merely annoyances, they are mass murderers.
> 
> But is this actually true?
> 
> There's little doubt that these hellacious insects are prodigious killers of humankind. The bloodsuckers spread all sorts of diseases %u2013 West Nile Virus, various kinds of Encephalitis, Dengue Fever, Yellow Fever, and Zika Virus, for example. However, the damage wrought by all of these diseases is piddling in comparison to malaria. Causing fever, tiredness, vomiting, headaches, and seizures, it struck 216 million people in 2016 alone, resulting in between 445,000 to 731,000 deaths. Believe it or not, that's an improvement over past years. In 2000, there were 262 million cases, resulting in at least 839,000 deaths.
> 
> Adding these devastating statistics together almost unequivocably places mosquitoes as the leading killer of human beings all time. But a historical death toll of roughly 54 billion - half of all humans ever? That seems a tad hard to believe, especially considering that malaria is presently responsible for perhaps 1% of all deaths worldwide each year.
> 
> BBC journalist Tim Harford was skeptical, too. For his podcast, More or Less, he interviewed Professor Brian Faragher, Emeritus Professor of Medical Statistics at Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine.
> 
> "It's difficult to find evidence to support that claim. It's a widely published claim, but it's very difficult to find the source of it," Faragher said.
> 
> Indeed, the claim is made in articles from a wide array of traditionally credible sources, most without a link to an original source. Its earliest utterance we discovered is in a 2002 Nature article, unfortunately unreferenced: "Malaria may have killed half of all the people that ever lived."
> 
> That same year, two researchers explored the "Evolutionary and Historical Aspects of the Burden of Malaria" in the journal Clinical Microbiology Reviews. They wrote:
> 
> "At some time during the 19th century, malaria reached its global limits. In absolute numbers and in the proportion of the humanity now affected, malaria was exacting its highest ever toll of sickness and death. Well over one-half of the world's population was at significant risk from malaria. Of those directly affected by malaria at least 1 in 10 could expect to die from it."
> 
> So, even if all of the world's population in 1900 contracted malaria, the death toll would have come to perhaps 100 million. That's a lot of people, but it would have taken 540 more "1900s" to get to 54 billion deaths, an almost statistically impossible prospect.
> 
> "If you extrapolate that... and try to work out the total percentage of people who would have died from malaria... it was probably somewhere between four and five percent," Faragher said.
> 
> That's an eye-opening statistic to be sure, but it is a far cry from the original and far more share-worthy factoid. On the plus side, it does have the benefit of being far closer to the actual truth.



And in response to Stellarpanther's post that swerved us here, there are a number of factors that have made it difficult to develop a malaria vaccine that do not necessarily apply to a Covid-19 vaccine, some scientific, some cultural, some economic, some political.  If malaria was suddenly having the same death rate in North American and European children as it does in African children under age 5 (the most affected population group), the programmes would probably be higher in priority and more advanced.

Some of the story is in this article.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2020/04/a-new-malaria-vaccine-sparks-hope-but-cheaper-measures-are-still


----------



## Brash

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What's the difference if the healthcare system shuts down voluntarily to anything except emergencies or is overwhelmed by COVID-19 cases.  How many other people will die because they can't get treatment.


If the healthcare system is overwhelmed with COVID-19 patients, there will not be enough resources to treat and save those that otherwise might be (INCLUDING THOSE WITH OTHER CONDITIONS).
You are looking at this as an either/or situation. In reality the preservation of finite healthcare resources has multiple-order follow on effects beyond the treatment capability of COVID-19 patients.
That's one of the differences that is recognized by pretty much everyone...except for a short-sighted few (and astroturfing bears).



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> They were originally told treatment would buy her more time and are now told treatment is suspended.  People shouldn't die or have their lives shortened for no valid reason.


The principle of greatest good for all (not just COVID-19 victims) IS being applied by the most well-informed professionals that are managing this crisis.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> My understanding is all this is because they don't want to overwhelm the healthcare system which actually doesn't make sense to me or almost anyone I talk to including my doctor who during a phone appointment a couple weeks ago told me many doctors disagree with the approach being taken to suspend other medical care.


I guess you can choose to either defer to experts in the field like the rest of us, keep spreading uninformed opinions, or study emergency management and healthcare resource management for yourself and apply them to the current crisis.


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You mean like maybe kill my skin Doctor from Covid-19, so I can go get the growth on my shoulder looked at?  Naw, I don't think I'll be that selfish right now....
> 
> And I have to ask, what the hell do you think we're trying to do??



… and there it is.  Didn't take long.  

This is a serious question,  As far as I know this forum is not a forum run by the Canadian Army?  I belong to several forums but this is the only one where I am warned/watched for having an opinion.  It's not illegal to call a politician an idiot for example or think their policy is idiotic.  Even if it is against CAF rules, would it be acceptable if the mbr here was retired or never joined the CAF.  I use this forum as a coping mechanism to handle my stresses, we all different ways, yet the constant warnings for giving an opinion are what bugs me.  It doesn't bother me if someone agrees with me or not, that's fine.  I am also careful not to insult anyone here which I would agree shouldn't be allowed.  I express my opinion honestly and sometimes against politicians like any other Canadian.

If you don't care about a growth on your shoulder that's your choice to leave it alone but you should realize that not everyone thinks like you do.  My relative had a cancer surgery recently and was supposed to go back to have it checked as it has a high reoccurrence.  The specialist actually called him at home yesterday to apologize for not being able to do the scope and said he wanted him to know it's only because of the hospital rules.  He apparently sounded very sincere.


----------



## stellarpanther

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> If the healthcare system is overwhelmed with COVID-19 patients, there will not be enough resources to treat and save those that otherwise might be (INCLUDING THOSE WITH OTHER CONDITIONS).
> You are looking at this as an either/or situation. In reality the preservation of finite healthcare resources has multiple-order follow on effects beyond the treatment capability of COVID-19 patients.
> That's one of the differences that is recognized by pretty much everyone...except for a short-sighted few (and astroturfing bears).
> The principle of greatest good for all (not just COVID-19 victims) IS being applied by the most well-informed professionals that are managing this crisis.
> I guess you can choose to either defer to experts in the field like the rest of us, keep spreading uninformed opinions, or study emergency management and healthcare resource management for yourself and apply them to the current crisis.



As the doctor pointed out to my relative, right now those fears haven't materialized.  Some procedures that are in and out and even some day procedures should be allowed to continue.  If things get bad, they could quickly cancel.  A person could have a procedure scheduled for tomorrow and if all of a sudden we had hell break loose today, they could call and cancel tomorrows procedure.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. coronavirus cases top 1 million as projected death toll rises*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-cases/u-s-coronavirus-cases-top-1-million-as-projected-death-toll-rises-idUSKCN22A1EJ
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-updates-pandemic-world-listened/story?id=70378215
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/coronavirus-update-restrictions-testing-2020-04-28/


----------



## Brash

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> As the doctor pointed out to my relative, right now those fears haven't materialized.  Some procedures that are in and out and even some day procedures should be allowed to continue.  If things get bad, they could quickly cancel.  A person could have a procedure scheduled for tomorrow and if all of a sudden we had hell break loose today, they could call and cancel tomorrows procedure.



So I understand your point correctly, you are saying that if healthcare managers see an unsustainable amount of COVID-19 cases, they can just immediately cut over to essential procedures only, and all would be good?

The central point to this argument is that such a cut-over would immediately relieve extra pressure (or at least keep it at a sustainable level) on the medical system from COVID-19 patients.
This is likely flawed due to the unpredictable spread of COVID-19, from unknown/untested carriers, to the unknown and highly variable latent period, to the exponential potential.
Concretely, the enormous risk of the approach you mention is that you get the timing wrong and all of a sudden the flood you though was only up to your knees when you closed the floodgate, keeps rising for several weeks until it's over your head.

Please keep in mind that, respectful of the work that they are doing, GP's are not the authority on the matter.
Additionally, as a devil's advocate, some healthcare professionals might just be placating people's opinions because they do not have the time to educate them and change their mind on the issue.

We have experts, and they are doing the best that they can, evolving their decisions as the information is gathered and science provides a clearer picture.


----------



## BDTyre

Thanks for the clarification on that. I will admit that a few weeks ago, I did some very loose and disjointed investigation into the malaria claim. I couldn't find anything saying yes, malaria certainly did kill that many people, and I also didn't find anything saying it didn't.

What I did find were estimates, and recent international estimates over the past years range from about 400 000 to 900 000 deaths per year over the past twenty or so years. I've also seen that number be as high as 3 million per year. So I guess the number of 50 billion could be simply an extrapolation, and also speculation based on the history of the disease and how many people it could have affected before written records were kept.

That said, my point was that there were and still are worse diseases out there so even if we find no Covid-19 vaccine, humans will find a way. 



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but while it is easy to dismiss POTUS based claims out-of-hand (not that he made any malaria related statements . . .  yet) it becomes much harder when unsubstantiated statements are presented and repeated in the great realm of social media without seeking proof.
> 
> https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2019/10/03/has_malaria_really_killed_half_of_everyone_who_ever_lived.html
> And in response to Stellarpanther's post that swerved us here, there are a number of factors that have made it difficult to develop a malaria vaccine that do not necessarily apply to a Covid-19 vaccine, some scientific, some cultural, some economic, some political.  If malaria was suddenly having the same death rate in North American and European children as it does in African children under age 5 (the most affected population group), the programmes would probably be higher in priority and more advanced.
> 
> Some of the story is in this article.
> https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/science-and-technology/2020/04/a-new-malaria-vaccine-sparks-hope-but-cheaper-measures-are-still


----------



## Quirky

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> As the doctor pointed out to my relative, right now those fears haven't materialized.  Some procedures that are in and out and even some day procedures should be allowed to continue.  If things get bad, they could quickly cancel.  A person could have a procedure scheduled for tomorrow and if all of a sudden we had hell break loose today, they could call and cancel tomorrows procedure.



You are in the wrong forum to criticize the current measures we are under. As this evolves people are getting restless and if it continues into June you’ll see more calls to reopen, despite whatever our incompetent fed government tells us. Covid will eventually be a part of life and society will continue to run, but with greater risks.


----------



## stellarpanther

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> So I understand your point correctly, you are saying that if healthcare managers see an unsustainable amount of COVID-19 cases, they can just immediately cut over to essential procedures only, and all would be good?
> 
> The central point to this argument is that such a cut-over would immediately relieve extra pressure (or at least keep it at a sustainable level) on the medical system from COVID-19 patients.
> This is likely flawed due to the unpredictable spread of COVID-19, from unknown/untested carriers, to the unknown and highly variable latent period, to the exponential potential.
> Concretely, the enormous risk of the approach you mention is that you get the timing wrong and all of a sudden the flood you though was only up to your knees when you closed the floodgate, keeps rising for several weeks until it's over your head.
> 
> Please keep in mind that, respectful of the work that they are doing, GP's are not the authority on the matter.
> Additionally, as a devil's advocate, some healthcare professionals might just be placating people's opinions because they do not have the time to educate them and change their mind on the issue.
> 
> We have experts, and they are doing the best that they can, evolving their decisions as the information is gathered and science provides a clearer picture.



To be clear I never said GP (General Practitioner), to my knowledge GP's don' t do scopes.  Actually it's a urologist.  Unfortunately I can't find the article someone told me about this morning but the Provincial watchdog that oversees healthcare in the province is questioning the approach currently being implemented and calling for more services including screenings and certain surgical procedures to be immediately restarted.  I had the article read to me over the phone.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> … and there it is.  Didn't take long.
> 
> ...As far as I know this forum is not a forum run by the Canadian Army?  I belong to several forums but this is the only one where I am warned/watched for having an opinion.  It's not illegal to call a politician an idiot for example or think their policy is idiotic.  Even if it is against CAF rules, would it be acceptable if the mbr here was retired or never joined the CAF.  I use this forum as a coping mechanism to handle my stresses, we all different ways, yet the constant warnings for giving an opinion are what bugs me.  It doesn't bother me if someone agrees with me or not, that's fine.  I am also careful not to insult anyone here which I would agree shouldn't be allowed.  I express my opinion honestly and sometimes against politicians like any other Canadian.



This site has a code of conduct attached to it. It doesn’t matter who runs it, or why. The owner wishes interactions (especially political or topics otherwise prone to become emotionally charged) to stay within specific parameters as to maintain civil discussion. That is his prerogative, and all DS, as well as those who contribute, are subject to the policies in place. The rules are not in place to ruin anyone’s fun, or to discourage participation. Rather, they exist because Army.ca wishes to remain distinctive from other sites, and to be a space where its users are free to have differing opinions, without the personal attacks against each other, or public figures of varying positions, which often leads to inflated/heated discussion when left unmonitored. Your use of name-calling (and anyone else’s) to describe a person and their ideas, is in contravention of site regulations. You very easily could’ve worded your disagreement in a more constructive manner. 

All site guidelines are accessible to the public. There are no surprises here. None. Zilch. 

I will say this plainly, because frankly, I’m growing very tired of the proverbial hand-holding you require. If you don’t like the policies which all users are to abide by, then post elsewhere. Plain and simple. 

Army.ca is not here as an outlet for you to unload your frustrations on as you see fit, in order to help you ‘cope.’ ALL of us are dealing with unusual stressors at this time. Yet the majority manage to express themselves within the confines of what Army.ca requires, regardless of the topic. 

If you can’t manage to conduct yourself accordingly, then the warnings and DS intervention will keep occurring until you are able to comprehend what’s required here.


----------



## Brash

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> To be clear I never said GP (General Practitioner), to my knowledge GP's don' t do scopes.  Actually it's a urologist.  Unfortunately I can't find the article someone told me about this morning but the Provincial watchdog that oversees healthcare in the province is questioning the approach currently being implemented and calling for more services including screenings and certain surgical procedures to be immediately restarted.  I had the article read to me over the phone.


Fair enough, I made an incorrect assumption regarding them being a general practitioner. My point remains valid in that they are not a virologist, immunologist, or otherwise infectious disease specialist.
They are a bit out of their lane.

As I previously mentioned, expect the response to change as the science sharpens. 
There is no playbook to this, and I think we can agree that it is better to hedge the response with a wide margin of safety given the scope of societal cooperation is unprecedented in our lifetimes.


----------



## PuckChaser

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> Fair enough, I made an incorrect assumption regarding them being a general practitioner. My point remains valid in that they are not a virologist, immunologist, or otherwise infectious disease specialist.
> They are a bit out of their lane.



Are they? Chief Public Health Officer in Ontario said they cancelled elective surgeries to preserve hospital capacity. In doing so, they were able to have a ready reserve of ventilators and day surgery unit beds ready to go in case the normal parts of the hospital were overwhelmed. It was never briefed as a disease transmission issue, but as a ventilator/ICU capacity issue. Now that we have a better idea of how many cases each area is facing in the future based on real data (not falsified Chinese data), those infectious disease experts can with some certainty tell us what capacity will be needed in the future. Now they're phasing those surgeries back in the near term as the capacity issue is sorted. This isn't a new concept, my wife had to wait on an epidural in Kingston for one of our kids because there was a major trauma that needed the on call anesthesiologist rushed to support emergency surgeries. 

You don't need to be a doctor to realize that someone's low risk ACL surgery can be turned off at any time right up until you get to try to count down from 10 in the OR if that hospital sees a sudden surge. In fact, with consulations with specialists in their offices limited right now, its probably a perfect time to bash through the backlog of elective surgeries sitting on the docket.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Kumiko Okae, the voice actress for Pokemon has died from COVID-19

The sad news comes to us from Japan. According to what was shared, actress Kumiko Okae has recently passed away from coronavirus at the age of 63.

The information has been made public today, adding that her death was due to the complication of pneumonia derived from the outbreak of the virus. We also learned that Okae had received radiation therapy from January to February after she was diagnosed with breast cancer late last year. She started having a fever on April 3 and was rushed to a hospital on April 6 after her illness worsened. She was subsequently informed that she was infected with COVID-19.

https://nintendosmash.com/kumiko-okae-the-voice-actress-for-pokemon-has-died-from-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR02LLGKK9Yuxb2bBGYQV5H2Fi7iyoztmtYpDfQL5H9alhrWzZ8ZRC9PU3w


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are they? Chief Public Health Officer in Ontario said they cancelled elective surgeries to preserve hospital capacity. In doing so, they were able to have a ready reserve of ventilators and day surgery unit beds ready to go in case the normal parts of the hospital were overwhelmed. It was never briefed as a disease transmission issue, but as a ventilator/ICU capacity issue. Now that we have a better idea of how many cases each area is facing in the future based on real data (not falsified Chinese data), those infectious disease experts can with some certainty tell us what capacity will be needed in the future. Now they're phasing those surgeries back in the near term as the capacity issue is sorted. This isn't a new concept, my wife had to wait on an epidural in Kingston for one of our kids because there was a major trauma that needed the on call anesthesiologist rushed to support emergency surgeries.
> 
> You don't need to be a doctor to realize that someone's low risk ACL surgery can be turned off at any time right up until you get to try to count down from 10 in the OR if that hospital sees a sudden surge. In fact, with consulations with specialists in their offices limited right now, its probably a perfect time to bash through the backlog of elective surgeries sitting on the docket.



Thank you for explaining it so clearly, it's exactly what I was trying to say but I wasn't finding the right words.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Some of those left off the temporary pay increase list not happy.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-sunday-paramedics-pandemic-pay-1.5545456





> April 28, 2020
> 
> Global News
> 
> Ontario government expands coronavirus ‘pandemic pay’ to paramedics, public health nurses
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6880138/coronavirus-ontario-pandemic-pay-eligibility-list-expanded/



That was kind of them.


----------



## stellarpanther

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tam-who-defend-new-normal-pandemic-covid-coronavirus-1.5548285

I was just reading this article online about how people will go back to a different workplace once they start to return.  I'm trying to picture how we in the CAF would do things different.  I suppose they could have more people working from home but right now it's tough even for many HRA's/FSA's because we don't have access to the DWAN.  Any ideas?


----------



## mariomike

How's this for social distancing...

https://twitter.com/menasheshapiro/status/1255306218568060928

https://twitter.com/ToddMaisel/status/1255305652597121026


----------



## stellarpanther

mariomike said:
			
		

> How's this for social distancing...
> 
> https://twitter.com/menasheshapiro/status/1255306218568060928
> 
> https://twitter.com/ToddMaisel/status/1255305652597121026



wow... I saw some people with mask but a lot that didn't.  It was a great gesture by the Air Force and Navy but I bet they didn't expect that to happen.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> wow... I saw some people with mask but a lot that didn't.  It was a great gesture by the Air Force and Navy but I bet they didn't expect that to happen.



As far as I know, at this time, the Canadian International Airshow at the CNE is still on.


----------



## dapaterson

Who's protesting?  It's hard to say, really... but it sounds like an info ops activity.


Organizer of ‘Canada-wide’ anti-lockdown protests linked to private security agency that sells special bracelets to block 5G signals

https://pressprogress.ca/meet-the-strange-and-mysterious-group-organizing-anti-lockdown-protests-across-canada/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Bosnia reports sharp rise in coronavirus cases after relaxing lockdown*
> 
> Bosnia reported on Wednesday its sharpest daily rise in new coronavirus infections this month after its two autonomous regions had gradually begun to ease lockdowns.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-bosnia-cases/bosnia-reports-sharp-rise-in-coronavirus-cases-after-relaxing-lockdown-idUSKBN22B2DB


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Now that we have a better idea of how many cases each area is facing in the future based on real data (not falsified Chinese data), those infectious disease experts can with some certainty tell us what capacity will be needed in the future.

I doubt that they can.  The predictive models are not useful and produce impractically wide ranges of estimates, not certainty.  To improve predictive models, or even to improve TTPs, more data and observation are required.  To get those, we have to try things out.

Part of being an expert is knowing when to say "I don't know", and then saying it.  Too many people are trying too hard to give answers that exceed the limits of current human knowledge on forecasting.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> As far as I know, at this time, the Canadian International Airshow at the CNE is still on.



Cold Lake cancelled their airshow a few days ago, I'm sure CNE and Abbotsford will follow suit soon as the date gets closer. 



			
				OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Bosnia reports sharp rise in coronavirus cases after relaxing lockdown



This will likely happen in Canada too as we gradually ease restrictions. We either open everything up this summer and let nature do its thing or we will be stuck in an infinite loop as waves hit us.


----------



## Remius

Great piece in the Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/


It tries to navigate the mixed messages of COVID 19. 

Really worth the read regardless of what one believes in.


----------



## Brash

Remius said:
			
		

> Great piece in the Atlantic.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-confusing-uncertainty/610819/
> 
> 
> It tries to navigate the mixed messages of COVID 19.
> 
> Really worth the read regardless of what one believes in.



That was an insightful read. Thank you.


----------



## Brad Sallows

“I hope the lesson people take from this is not, Experts were wrong,” Tufekci says. “If you followed the right people, they were overwhelmingly right. We just didn’t put them in the right place so we could hear them.”

That's the heart of the problem, especially if the "right people" are not the "concensus".


----------



## Brash

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You don't need to be a doctor to realize that someone's low risk ACL surgery can be turned off at any time right up until you get to try to count down from 10 in the OR if that hospital sees a sudden surge. In fact, with consulations with specialists in their offices limited right now, its probably a perfect time to bash through the backlog of elective surgeries sitting on the docket.



I believe you are making the same point as another poster. As previously stated, the _turning off_  of the OR surgery is only one aspect of this. 
You are correct in stating that one doesn't need to be a doctor to cancel an appointment.
Your response glosses over the fact that *well-informed* decisions that encompass the entire scope of the issue (not just appointment cancellations), should be made by those with the requisite skills and training...

Useful and (possibly) unanswered questions include:

How many of these elective patients require consultations and will require requisite follow-up from complications or otherwise, which can't be turned off?
How many elective patients are asymptomatic carriers, and what impact does that have on healthcare capacities?
How effective are the current physical distancing measures in preserving healthcare capacity?
How effective are the current elective procedure restriction in preserving healthcare capacity?

It is somewhat easier to armchair quarterback this and critique decisions using new information available even days after decisions are made.
This can lead to one to have hindsight bias incorrectly informing them that their level of prediction accuracy is on par with highly-educated leaders in their field (also see Dunning–Kruger effect).

Again, the science is working, the information is flowing upwards, and decision-makers are adapting measures appropriately based on it.
If this information shows that elective procedures are safe to come back, then you can expect them to be back in due time.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=stellarpanther] I had the article read to me over the phone.
[/quote]

Someone called you and read the article to you over the phone? Seems faster to email you the article or text you the link.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Someone called you and read the article to you over the phone? Seems faster to email you the article or text you the link.



I was talking to the person (family) on the phone and they read it.  Both my wife and I spend a lot of time lately on the phone talking to our families about nothing in a lot of cases.  Something else to do I guess than just watch TV and go on the computer all day.  The work I do isn't that much because there's only so much I can do on a computer not connected to the DWAN.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=stellarpanther] The work I do isn't that much because there's only so much I can do on a computer not connected to the DWAN.
[/quote]
I recommend some long runs, pull ups and DLN courses.


----------



## Weinie

And start wearing big boy pants.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I thought you were telling me to wear pants because of my chicken legs.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I recommend some long runs, pull ups and DLN courses.



I say nay, nay!  Downs but not ups.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Back on topic Gentlemen..


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I recommend some long runs, pull ups and DLN courses.



Thankfully I have a treadmill in the basement so I'm doing PT but our unit was told not to take any DLN courses right now because they don't want the system to crash as some people still need mandatory courses through DLN.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought you were telling me to wear pants because of my chicken legs.



A) They’re not yours, and B) what did you do with the rest of the chicken?


----------



## mariomike

Funeral home left dozens of bodies in U-Haul trucks,
https://www.amny.com/brooklyn/brooklyn-residents-alarmed-by-funeral-home-that-left-dozens-of-bodies-in-u-haul-trucks/

WTF?!
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_lEbAHBXgL/?igshid=1bu4ld8ermirp


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:
			
		

> WTF?!
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B_lEbAHBXgL/?igshid=1bu4ld8ermirp



I don't even understand what the health care workers who made that video are trying to do ... is that supposed to be gallows humour of some sort? Are they trolling people who have been upset over previous Tik Tok videos produced by healthcare workers? I don't get it ... 

As a criminal lawyer I know all about gallows humour, but there's a time and place for it and you don't plaster it all over the internet.

Also, this video doesn't scream to me healthcare heroes being crushed under the collapsing medical system overwhelmed with COVID-19 patients that we were promised was going to come even with totalitarianism in place.

On the topic of totalitarianism, I think that (unfortunately) my predictions of socio-economic calamity as a result of the lockdowns are coming to pass and way more people will die of starvation, violence (civil unrest and increased crime), stress-related deaths (heart attacks), and cancer:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-the-secondary-harms-caused-by-the-lockdown-get-worse-every-day

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/canada-could-lose-15percent-of-its-farms-by-year-end-raising-food-security-risks-expert-warns/ar-BB13q7Qm

We've never seen actual food shortages in Canada, at least not in living memory. I'm really not sure how people will react but I don't think it will be all good.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> WTF?!
> https://www.instagram.com/p/B_lEbAHBXgL/?igshid=1bu4ld8ermirp



It's a moral booster, don't you know? These healthcare professionals are just blowing off the steam.......  :


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> It's a moral booster, don't you know? These healthcare professionals are just blowing off the steam.......  :



Quirky, that is why I typed "WTF". 

I never did, or even considered, anything like that. I do not know anyone who did. For sure anyone who did would be fired.   :

Social media is a great career killer.

Not all health care professionals make such bad decisions. Likewise, I am sure not all CAF members do either.

In both cases, there is a system for getting rid of them.



			
				LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I don't get it ...



Neither do I...


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=mariomike]

WTF?!
https://www.instagram.com/p/B_lEbAHBXgL/?igshid=1bu4ld8ermirp
[/quote]

This is what Tik Tok does to peoples brains.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:
			
		

> Quirky, that is why I typed "WTF".
> 
> I never did, or even considered, anything like that. I do not know anyone who did. For sure anyone who did would be fired.   :



lol it’s not what I meant in that sense. I was making a sarcastic comment regarding the whole dancing nurse doctor thing. No ill intent.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Really makes one wonder whether the so-called experts actually know what they are doing/talking about ... WHO were hitherto the main proponents for lockdowns and economic annihilation, but now this:

https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds-sweden-as-model-for-resisting-coronavirus-lockdown/

I guess it's hard to argue with facts.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Facts, from the article...."The country, which has a population of 10.3 million, has seen more than 20,300 cases and 2,462 deaths as of Thursday afternoon — far higher than its Nordic neighbors, which implemented stricter containment measures, the latest data shows."

WHO says whatever the CCP tells it to say....


----------



## PMedMoe

IMO, the New York Post is little more than a tabloid. 

In The Times (UK), they said the WHO praised Sweden as a "future model" in the next phase of fighting the outbreak (as other countries begin to ease restrictions).  Problem is, Sweden trusted their people to observe social distancing rules.  Seems many in other countries aren't so trustworthy.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Facts, from the article...."The country, which has a population of 10.3 million, has seen more than 20,300 cases and 2,462 deaths as of Thursday afternoon — far higher than its Nordic neighbors, which implemented stricter containment measures, the latest data shows."



Higher than it's Nordic neighbours, but still proportionally a less than countries that have imposed the draconian lock-downs such as UK (68 million people and 21,000 deaths). So I think the facts are starting to come to light at the auto-demolition of whole economies was not necessary to prevent the apocalypse predicted by WHO earlier.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> WHO says whatever the CCP tells it to say....



Can't really argue with that.


----------



## mariomike

What would the official stats be if DOAs were included?



> April 30, 2020
> 
> Storzillo said he doubts those numbers tell the whole story.
> 
> "The amount of people that we're pronouncing dead at home is astronomical," he said. Before the outbreak, "we would maybe pronounce one or two people dead per shift, and they'd be elderly people on hospice that died of natural causes. Now we're seeing 20-year-olds, 40-year-olds, that are all dying at home."
> 
> "My fear is that they may not be counted in the numbers," Storzillo said, estimating that some shifts had as many as eight deaths each since the coronavirus outbreak began. "It actually boggles my mind, the amount of people that we've been pronouncing outside of the hospital."
> 
> The New Jersey Department of Health told CNN Tuesday that data on suspected Covid-19 home deaths was not available.
> 
> Citing "the overwhelming number of cases," Donna Leusner, a spokesperson for the department, said that data on overall home deaths was also not available, although it will be later on.
> 
> 
> 
> https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/30/us/paterson-pandemic-paramedics/index.html?fbclid=IwAR2I44FCq8uH7cVSH3rtmWIiO4TEyl-JihUdsmmho-fnJeylccIa4GDI9ss&__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Higher than it's Nordic neighbours, but still proportionally a less than countries that have imposed the draconian lock-downs such as UK (68 million people and 21,000 deaths). So I think the facts are starting to come to light at the auto-demolition of whole economies was not necessary to prevent the apocalypse predicted by WHO earlier.



Great Britain started like Sweden did but had to clamp down because they didn’t have the same discipline the Swedes have. 

But comparing Sweden to it’s Nordic neighbours is a bit more accurate as they have similar cultures and population size.  As well as other factors.  

Sweden has a death rate of 241 per million.  Canada has 86.  A big difference there.  Why? We certainly have more strict guidelines.  (GB btw is at 392).

Cultural, societal and scientific, and structural differences I think play a part. Also time played a factor.  And what people did with that time.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Imported by the rich, coronavirus now devastating Brazil's poor*
> 
> Imported by the Brazilian elite vacationing in Europe, the new coronavirus is now ravaging the country’s poor, ripping through tightly-packed neighborhoods where the disease is harder to control.
> 
> Public health data analyzed by Reuters for the cities of Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Fortaleza show a shift in recent weeks from the wealthy boroughs that seeded the outbreak to the gritty urban outskirts.
> 
> The change has coincided with a spike in confirmed coronavirus deaths, which are now just shy of 6,000 in Brazil. Many scientists point to Latin America’s largest country as the next deadly hotspot for COVID-19.
> 
> Researchers at Imperial College London estimate Brazil’s transmission rate this week will have been the highest in the world.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil-poor/imported-by-the-rich-coronavirus-now-devastating-brazils-poor-idUSKBN22D549


----------



## PMedMoe

Reading further in the article about Brazil:
*
"In poor neighborhoods few are adhering to quarantine measures."*

I never thought Reuters would use such a click bait headline.   :


----------



## Blackadder1916

Remius said:
			
		

> Great Britain started like Sweden did but had to clamp down because they didn%u2019t have the same discipline the Swedes have.
> 
> But comparing Sweden to it%u2019s Nordic neighbours is a bit more accurate as they have similar cultures and population size.  As well as other factors.
> 
> Sweden has a death rate of 241 per million.  Canada has 86.  A big difference there.  Why? We certainly have more strict guidelines.  (GB btw is at 392).
> 
> Cultural, societal and scientific, and structural differences I think play a part. Also time played a factor.  And what people did with that time.



Anytime I see a comparison of the Swedes to . . .  well, anyone else about almost anything, I'm always reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMD35tUh-Ek.  In most cases the difference comes down to a variation on the theme of "the . . . discipline the Swedes have".  In much the same as there is an expectation that Canadians would be more accepting of government intrusion on personal liberties than Americans, Swedes are more likely to accept that their personal behaviour affects society and are (generally) more willing to modify that behaviour for the greater good.

Sweden may not be the best example for North America to follow because, for the majority of Americans, their concept of Swedish society is Volvo, IKEA and ABBA*.



*Not that there is anything wrong with that.  I've owned products from all three, as well as Saab.


----------



## Good2Golf

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Reading further in the article about Brazil:
> *
> "In poor neighborhoods few are adhering to quarantine measures."*
> 
> I never thought Reuters would use such a click bait headline.   :



...or doctored photos...again...


----------



## PMedMoe

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...or doctored photos...again...


----------



## OldSolduer

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Reading further in the article about Brazil:
> *
> "In poor neighborhoods few are adhering to quarantine measures."*
> 
> I never thought Reuters would use such a click bait headline.   :



Well I'm no demographics expert but I am guessing if Brazilian ghettos are like most, they are overcrowded to begin with, filthy and poor. I could be wrong.


----------



## PMedMoe

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Well I'm no demographics expert but I am guessing if Brazilian ghettos are like most, they are overcrowded to begin with, filthy and poor. I could be wrong.



Yes they are, however: Residents in Brasilandia, a poor district at the north end of Sao Paulo with the highest coronavirus death toll in the city, told Reuters that *bars were still crowded and open-air dance parties attracted thousands of revelers on the weekends*. 

And

"Perhaps more challenging still, the state is weak in the favelas, with drug gangs often the de facto authority. That would make lockdown measures difficult to enforce - even if they had the support of the country’s skeptical leader, President Jair Bolsonaro, who has repeatedly shrugged off fears about the coronavirus and described state and city measures to slow its spread as extreme."



But hey, let's blame the people who travelled.  Wouldn't want other facts to get in the way of a good headline.


----------



## kkwd

Studies being conducted using PUL-042 Inhalation Solution. 

https://pulmotect.com/

https://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-drug/def/tlr-2-6-9-agonist-pul-042
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04313023
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04312997
https://www.pulmonaryfibrosis.org/life-with-pf/clinical-trials/pipeline/drug/covid-19/pul-042


----------



## tomahawk6

Gilead Science has a drug that will help in the treatment of coronavirus patients and the hunt for a vaccine is moving along.


----------



## dapaterson

File this under "Things I expected out of Montreal".

Portland Now Has Hot Dystopian Stripper Food Delivery

https://www.cracked.com/article_27628_portland-now-has-hot-dystopian-stripper-food-delivery.html?fbclid=IwAR02iy6F32AhzfpE9YrXalwV5QJjw0bgyhs0_xJ6S2fMtR7cu4FDSFx00VE


----------



## tomahawk6

Worlds largest plane flying medical supplies to Canada.

https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/anchorage/2020/05/01/worlds-largest-airplane-stops-in-anchorage-on-its-way-to-canada-with-medical-supplies/


----------



## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Worlds largest plane flying medical supplies to Canada.
> 
> https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/anchorage/2020/05/01/worlds-largest-airplane-stops-in-anchorage-on-its-way-to-canada-with-medical-supplies/



Is it a coincidence that it's a Russian plane delivering supplies to the USA on, or about, May1st? 

Just wondering....


----------



## mariomike

A Texas park ranger was out trying to enforce COVID-19 social distancing regulations ...so he got pushed into the lake.
https://twitter.com/lost808s/status/1256063930411159555


----------



## daftandbarmy

Civil service saw COVID-19 benefit programs as 'Dunkirk'-style rescue effort

It was a sunny March 18 when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau presented the government’s first big attempt at containing the economic fallout from COVID-19 in the form of an $82-billion rescue package.

The viral pandemic’s effect in Canada was already bad: Schools were closing, workplaces shutting down, employees being laid off or having their hours cut deeply.

The $82-billion response was immense by any standard. But the jobless numbers would overwhelm it, and they were still rising.
On the Monday before Trudeau spoke, there had been 71,000 claims on the employment-insurance system — surpassing the previous single-day record of 38,000 set during the global financial crisis just over a decade ago.

On the day Trudeau announced the first relief plan, 87,000 claims were filed, almost 10 times the usual daily volume for mid-March.
By Thursday morning, officials overseeing the safety-net program started sensing the magnitude of what was coming. Just processing all the incoming claims in the usual way would take months.

They needed to explain it to a half-dozen senior civil servants in a boardroom and the remainder on videoconference for a regular morning briefing.

“Dunkirk” was the comparison that stuck.


https://theprovince.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/civil-service-saw-covid-19-benefit-programs-as-dunkirk-style-rescue-effort/wcm/f37c322e-f7ff-4fcc-8b3e-68aae196cf7c


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:
			
		

> A Texas park ranger was out trying to enforce COVID-19 social distancing regulations ...so he got pushed into the lake.
> https://twitter.com/lost808s/status/1256063930411159555



Hope that covidiot gets charged with assault.


----------



## kev994

My nephew is 15, he got a full-time job at crappy tire this summer. Apparently they can’t get anyone to come to work, the employees make more on CERB. I assume they haven’t figured out that they need to give some back come tax time.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hope that covidiot gets charged with assault.



He was charged.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/03/texas-park-ranger-pushed-into-lake-while-trying-to-enforce-social-distance/

How is NYPD social distance enforcement going? Not well. Not well at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMFr6FUEVc0


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:
			
		

> He was charged.
> https://nypost.com/2020/05/03/texas-park-ranger-pushed-into-lake-while-trying-to-enforce-social-distance/



_Attempted_ assault?   :


----------



## kkwd

From the World Economic Forum.



> Lockdown is the world's biggest psychological experiment - and we will pay the price





> Unfortunately, we already have a good idea of its results. In late February 2020, right before European countries mandated various forms of lockdowns, The Lancet published a review of 24 studies documenting the psychological impact of quarantine (the “restriction of movement of people who have potentially been exposed to a contagious disease”). The findings offer a glimpse of what is brewing in hundreds of millions of households around the world.
> 
> In short, and perhaps unsurprisingly, people who are quarantined are very likely to develop a wide range of symptoms of psychological stress and disorder, including low mood, insomnia, stress, anxiety, anger, irritability, emotional exhaustion, depression and post-traumatic stress symptoms. Low mood and irritability specifically stand out as being very common, the study notes.
> 
> In China, these expected mental health effects are already being reported in the first research papers about the lockdown.
> 
> In cases where parents were quarantined with children, the mental health toll became even steeper. In one study, no less than 28% of quarantined parents warranted a diagnosis of “trauma-related mental health disorder”.



A link to the Lancet piece mentioned. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30460-8/fulltext

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/this-is-the-psychological-side-of-the-covid-19-pandemic-that-were-ignoring/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You can't compare China's lockdown with the North American "lockdown"....they aren't even close.  I drove to Collingwood last week to socially-distance drop off a pinball machine and today I'm going to Hamilton to socially-distance drop off some garden beds for the ex, am I really that hard done by?

  And as far as "“trauma-related mental health disorder” that's freakin embarrassing to even have to read.

Especially on a forum like this where many know real trauma.


----------



## Quirky

From the World Economic Forum said:
			
		

> From the World Economic Forum.
> In short, and perhaps unsurprisingly, people who are quarantined are very likely to develop a wide range of symptoms of psychological stress and disorder, including low mood, insomnia, stress, anxiety, anger, irritability, emotional exhaustion, depression and post-traumatic stress symptoms. Low mood and irritability specifically stand out as being very common, the study notes.



So essentially symptoms that everyone in their lives will experience at least once, deal with it and move on. The lack of mental resiliency among the population, and in many cases the military, is astonishing. Please tell me this is a generational thing.


----------



## kkwd

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You can't compare China's lockdown with the North American "lockdown"....they aren't even close.  I drove to Collingwood last week to socially-distance drop off a pinball machine and today I'm going to Hamilton to socially-distance drop off some garden beds for the ex, am I really that hard done by?
> 
> And as far as "“trauma-related mental health disorder” that's freakin embarrassing to even have to read.
> 
> Especially on a forum like this where many know real trauma.


Imagine a person in a very old apartment building in New York. They have an essential job and need to travel on the subway each day. They watch the governor on his daily news conference and wonder when they are next. What effect does that have on you? To say out loud that you are carrying on about your business as usual with social distancing brings howls of heretic, you must obey the rules and stay in. As for the trauma you are talking about that has no comparison.


----------



## kkwd

Quirky said:
			
		

> So essentially symptoms that everyone in their lives will experience at least once, deal with it and move on. The lack of mental resiliency among the population, and in many cases the military, is astonishing. Please tell me this is a generational thing.



There is extreme stress being experienced in this case, obey or die, that is a special case.


----------



## mariomike

Following this discussion from the comfort and safety of home, I can only offer what I read about the aftermath of 9/11. 

9,000 mental health counsellors descended upon NYC. Even the Church of Scientology sent 800 counsellors.

But, relatively few New Yorkers indicated they needed help. 

The lesson seemed to be that people were more resilient than expected.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> Following this discussion from the comfort and safety of home, I can only offer what I read about the aftermath of 9/11.
> 
> 9,000 mental health counsellors descended upon NYC. Even the Church of Scientology sent 800 counsellors.
> 
> But, relatively few New Yorkers indicated they needed help.
> 
> The lesson seemed to be that people were more resilient than expected.



Maybe it will all work out for the better.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

mariomike said:
			
		

> But, relatively few New Yorkers indicated they needed help.
> 
> The lesson seemed to be that people were more resilient than expected.


Nor do they make good sound bites...


----------



## BDTyre

As of about 10 minutes ago, the Abbotsford airshow has been cancelled.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Mental Health Consequences of COVID-19 and Physical Distancing

The Need for Prevention and Early Intervention

"In the context of the COVID-19 pandemic, it appears likely that there will be substantial increases in anxiety and depression, substance use, loneliness, and domestic violence; and with schools closed, there is a very real possibility of an epidemic of child abuse. This concern is so significant that the UK has issued psychological first aid guidance from Mental Health UK.

...it is time to bolster our mental health system in preparation for the inevitable challenges precipitated by the COVID-19 pandemic. Stepped care, the practice of delivering the most effective, least resource-heavy treatment to patients in need, and then stepping up to more resource-heavy treatment based on patients’ needs, is a useful approach. This will require that systems are both well designed and well prepared to deliver this care to patients, from screening to the overflow of mental illness that will inevitably emerge from this pandemic. Scaling up treatment in the midst of crisis will take creative thinking. Communities and organizations could consider training nontraditional groups to provide psychological first aid, helping teach the lay public to check in with one another and provide support. Even small signs that someone cares could make a difference in the early stages of social isolation. Telemedicine mental health visits, group visits, and delivery of care via technology platforms will be important components of stepped care for both acute crisis management and more routine communication and support. Medicare has already expanded coverage of tele–mental health services to include mental health counseling and virtual visits with psychologists and social workers.10 And health systems, both public and private sector, will need to develop mechanisms for refill and delivery of essential medicines, including psychiatric medicines."

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2764404


----------



## PMedMoe

kkwd said:
			
		

> There is extreme stress being experienced in this case, obey or die, that is a special case.



I don't think it's quite _that_ extreme.   :


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't think it's quite _that_ extreme.   :



Yeah, sounds like a section attack


----------



## BeyondTheNow

The issue is perception. And it’s inherently difficult to convince someone that their perception is inaccurate, or wrong. Everyone’s perception of the current state of affairs is dictated by their own life experiences and frame of mind, their socio-economical status, geography, population and the number of deaths and cases in their area, etc. etc. Even two people who are experiencing everything within the same general confines of the above criteria will still have differing takes on the seriousness of the situation in general terms, as well as how it’s affecting them personally. 

What gets under my skin are those who are passing judgement and complaining about everything under the sun who are currently in an environment that has had next to no exposure to the virus. They’re just upset because their personal way of life has been disturbed and they’re feeling inconvenienced. They have no empathy at all. Yet I’m willing to place a wager that if the same persons were facing any sort of personal crisis they’d appreciate some semblance of support, or acknowledgment from others of the issues they were facing.


----------



## OldSolduer

Good points. My problem is I have an issue with avoiding danger when running into danger has been the preferred COA


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> What gets under my skin are those who are passing judgement and complaining about everything under the sun who are currently in an environment that has had next to no exposure to the virus.



I am very, very thankful to be in that environment.  

My thoughts are with those who are first through the door. They know what they signed up for. But, when they come home, they know they could be spreading it to their families.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Some of the people judging and complaining are facing personal crises, but not necessarily health crises.

Feel free to bang on against those whom you know for certain are merely inconvenienced, of course.


----------



## Kirkhill

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Yeah, sounds like a section attack



No. That would be "Obey AND die!" Not "Obey OR die!"  A slight difference.


----------



## Kirkhill

kkwd said:
			
		

> Imagine a person in a very old apartment building in New York. They have an essential job and need to travel on the subway each day. They watch the governor on his daily news conference and wonder when they are next. What effect does that have on you? To say out loud that you are carrying on about your business as usual with social distancing brings howls of heretic, you must obey the rules and stay in. As for the trauma you are talking about that has no comparison.



Simple enough solution.  When the lockdown ends move to Poughkeepsie.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Some of the people judging and complaining are facing personal crises, but not necessarily health crises.
> 
> Feel free to bang on against those whom you know for certain are merely inconvenienced, of course.



Yes, I am speaking of those who fit specifically into the category I outlined.


----------



## Brad Sallows

OK.  So we're all agreed that for those who are working or running a business that is not shut down, and not in a workplace exposed to infection, and not at risk of becoming domestic or child abusers, and able to meet their basic needs, and able to capably manage whatever changes in circumstances have been wrought at home, and generally in sufficiently good mental health with sufficient emotional resilience to endure prolonged extraordinary restrictions regardless where they fit on a scale of intro/extroversion, we are abstractly disappointed in their selfishness (if we don't know them), or specifically if we do.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> OK.  So we're all agreed that for those who are working or running a business that is not shut down, and not in a workplace exposed to infection, and not at risk of becoming domestic or child abusers, and able to meet their basic needs, and able to capably manage whatever changes in circumstances have been wrought at home, and generally in sufficiently good mental health with sufficient emotional resilience to endure prolonged extraordinary restrictions regardless where they fit on a scale of intro/extroversion, we are abstractly disappointed in their selfishness (if we don't know them), or specifically if we do.



Clearly I struck a nerve, and that’s not something I will take ownership for. My statement was general, not addressing anyone in particular, especially on this site, airing my frustrations with the attitudes of some—and they’re out there. I know this because I know those who’ve blatantly expressed as such, and yes, it very much gets under my skin.

If you want to go on the offensive, or defensive, I’ll leave that up for you to examine.


----------



## Remius

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Yes, I am speaking of those who fit specifically into the category I outlined.



That’s part of the issue.  You hear a lot more about how people can’t go to the beach or just want their golf courses open. 

One guy at my local store made a scene because he couldn’t get 12 large jugs of Evian water because (limit of 2 per customer) he doesn’t like tap water.  No word of a lie.  Brought the manager out and made a scene. 

My neighbours next door have been laid off work.  But they know they will be rehired. They are also trying to sell their house and have a property they bought so two mortgages.  They aren’t complaining and approve of the way Ford is slowly phasing in opening up the economy. 

Not everyone is in the same boat, I know but I seem to hear more about how some people can’t get their own personal luxuries like golf, crafts and seeds.  Thankfully in Canada most seem to approve of the current approach.  The lockdown protest in Ottawa saw only 20 people and Toronto barely 200 or so.


----------



## Brad Sallows

No, I just find the complaints about the complainers tiring and pointless.  It distracts from and occludes important issues, which do not neatly all fall into the health domain.


----------



## Blackadder1916

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> . . .  airing my frustrations . . .



https://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/stress-symptoms-effects_of-stress-on-the-body#2


> symptoms of stress include:
> 
> Becoming easily agitated, *frustrated*, and moody


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> https://www.webmd.com/balance/stress-management/stress-symptoms-effects_of-stress-on-the-body#2



I don’t appreciate the post Blackadder. I seem to recall several instances of your expressing displeasure over a multitude of topics throughout the years and it certainly never occurred to me to come back with a condescending response, such as that. My PMs are open if you wish to move into that territory.


----------



## Remius

The US is dramatically revising their case and death estimates. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-us-document-surge-1.5554878


----------



## CBH99

Those numbers seem absurdly high, and are based on modelling methods that have not yet been accurate even once.

**I'm not disrespecting your post at all Remius**   I just have my doubts that the numbers are accurate.  Seems like more MSM fear mongering to me.  (Although I could be wrong.)


In one part of the article, it states that there are approximately 25,000 new cases per day right now.  But by the end of the month, that could skyrocket to 200,000 new cases a day.

^ Based on what, exactly, would new cases skyrocket by 8x?  



The article seems alarmist, to me anyway.  That being said, I could be wrong.   :dunno:


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Those numbers seem absurdly high, and are based on modelling methods that have not yet been accurate even once.
> 
> **I'm not disrespecting your post at all Remius**   I just have my doubts that the numbers are accurate.  Seems like more MSM fear mongering to me.  (Although I could be wrong.)
> 
> 
> In one part of the article, it states that there are approximately 25,000 new cases per day right now.  But by the end of the month, that could skyrocket to 200,000 new cases a day.
> 
> ^ Based on what, exactly, would new cases skyrocket by 8x?
> 
> 
> 
> The article seems alarmist, to me anyway.  That being said, I could be wrong.   :dunno:



No disrespect at all.  

You make good points. 

The modelling is from the University of Washington. The White House has often cited them.

Here is a link to the original, NYT article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/04/us/coronavirus-live-updates.html

It looks like they changed the modelling based on early reopenings in some states and surges in the Midwest. 

It might be MSM fear mongering but even the President has raised the number of estimated deaths to over 100,000.  They are seeing something.


----------



## CBH99

It's pretty crazy to think that we're living through something that history will look at as "the great pandemic of 2020" or something like that, eh?

Like to most of us, we're sitting at home and going about our daily business for the most part.  Social distancing & some inconveniencing being the worst of it, for most of it.

Yet our grand-kids will read about this in history books and be like "Wow, you lived through that?  Must have been awful!"     :dunno:



Still, 100,000 deaths in the US is a whopper.  Wow.


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Those numbers seem absurdly high, and are based on modelling methods that have not yet been accurate even once.



If you have time read this article from a month ago.  It explains modelling, why it’s done and why it isn’t accurate and isn’t supposed to be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-models-arent-supposed-be-right/609271/

I really learned something in that.


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:
			
		

> It's pretty crazy to think that we're living through something that history will look at as "the great pandemic of 2020" or something like that, eh?
> 
> Like to most of us, we're sitting at home and going about our daily business for the most part.  Social distancing & some inconveniencing being the worst of it, for most of it.
> 
> Yet our grand-kids will read about this in history books and be like "Wow, you lived through that?  Must have been awful!"     :dunno:
> 
> 
> 
> Still, 100,000 deaths in the US is a whopper.  Wow.



Something I keep trying to tell my 16 year old that he’s living through something that will be looked back on. Something Global that has touched everyone on the planet.  Not sure it’s sinking in lol.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:
			
		

> The US is dramatically revising their case and death estimates.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-us-document-surge-1.5554878



I wonder if they've started including those who've died at home, with COVID as a contributing factor, in the totals? viz:

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/health-pmn/at-home-covid-19-deaths-may-be-significantly-undercounted-in-new-york-city

Meanwhile, holy frig, over: 

New York City Nursing Home Reports 98 Deaths Linked to COVID-19

https://time.com/5831192/new-york-city-nursing-home-coronavirus/


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder if they've started including those who've died at home,



My guess is no. 

Police send a DOA detective to check if it looks suspicious. If not, it's a cardiac arrest.


----------



## PMedMoe

A security guard was shot and killed in Flint, MI after he told a customer they had to wear a mask to enter a store.  

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/michigan-security-guard-mask-killing-trnd/index.html


----------



## Brad Sallows

>It explains modelling, why it’s done and why it isn’t accurate and isn’t supposed to be.

Modelling is done to make predictions.  Model predictions can be used to guide decisions (politics, finance); model predictions can be used to guide the search for data (science).  (A theory/hypothesis/model predicts "X", we go looking for "X".)  When someone claims "the science says" with respect to computer simulations, they are basically talking nonsense.

Models should be as accurate as possible.  That means, yes, that they are "supposed to be".  Aside from measurement reliability and accuracy, the "approximate" part of numerical approximations of mathematical equations for which exact solutions are elusive, the coarse errors of assumptions and oversimplified algorithms which are only themselves approximations of more complex systems of equations, the chief problem plaguing complex computer simulations is the propagation of the numerical uncertainty due to the fact that computers can only represent numbers with finite precision.  Run a simulation long enough, and the range of that uncertainty renders the results useless.

Vote models are somewhat useful because they are often simple (only a few calculation steps), and the validation (ie. comparison to election and referendum results) can be frequently tested.

Models of complex phenomena should be avoided for decision-making, particularly if they haven't been validated.  A model can't be validated without comparing it to real-world results, and we don't have a real-world result yet for this pandemic.  When we understand the phenomenon well enough to model it, we won't need a model.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Britain outpaces Italy with Europe's highest official coronavirus death toll*
> 
> Britain has overtaken Italy to report the highest official death toll from coronavirus in Europe with more than 32,000 deaths, figures released on Tuesday showed.
> 
> The high death toll could increase political pressure on Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who waited longer than other European leaders to order a lockdown to curb the spread of the virus in March.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain/britain-outpaces-italy-with-europes-highest-official-coronavirus-death-toll-idUSKBN22H0WH





> *France's early COVID-19 case may hold clues to pandemic's start*
> 
> A study by French scientists which suggests a man was infected with COVID-19 as early as Dec. 27, nearly a month before France confirmed its first cases, could be important in assessing when and where the new coronavirus emerged, experts said on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-retests/frances-early-covid-19-case-may-hold-clues-to-pandemics-start-idUSKBN22H15R
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/french-doctors-say-they-found-a-covid-19-patient-from-december-1.4924548


----------



## FJAG

:facepalm:



> GOP Lawmaker Opposes Coronavirus Face Masks Because They Cover 'The Image Of God'
> Nino Vitale says he won't wear a mask, and doesn't want others to wear one either, because the face is the "image and likeness of God."
> 
> A Republican state lawmaker in Ohio says he won’t wear a mask during the coronavirus pandemic because it covers the face, which is the “likeness of God.”
> 
> Nino Vitale, who serves in the state’s House of Representatives, says he’s not planning to follow guidance from Republican Gov. Mike DeWine, who first tried to order that masks be worn as the state reopens, but later softened that to a recommendation.
> 
> DeWine said he reversed himself because too many people found an order requiring masks to be “offensive.”
> 
> Vitale appears to be among the offended, writing on Facebook:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the greatest nation on earth founded on Judeo-Christian Principles. One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/ohio-masks-likeness-of-god-nino-vitale_n_5eb0c6d6c5b62b850f90eb42?ri18n=true


----------



## OceanBonfire

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> A security guard was shot and killed in Flint, MI after he told a customer they had to wear a mask to enter a store.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/michigan-security-guard-mask-killing-trnd/index.html



"Over a mask. Over a mask?"


Seriously...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Seems weird that if someone gets into a car accident and dies while being covid19 positive their death gets registered as a covid19 death.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> "Over a mask. Over a mask?"
> 
> 
> Seriously...



Because: Honour Culture

http://psychology.iresearchnet.com/social-psychology/cultural-psychology/culture-of-honor/


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Seems weird that if someone gets into a car accident and dies while being covid19 positive their death gets registered as a covid19 death.



No source given. I'll take your word for it.

Nothing new about traffic fatalities. But, they have been decreasing over the last 70 years. 
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01c9F9gURaHDDj8jcTjtV49E9z2PA%3A1588695109215&ei=RZCxXunbDM24tQXi0pC4Cg&q=traffic+fatalities+1949&oq=traffic+fatalities+1949&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCAAQzQIyBQgAEM0COgQIABBHOgQIABBDOgIIADoGCAAQFhAeOgUIIRCgAVCj7wFY5ZYCYIucAmgAcAJ4AIAB3AGIAfAGkgEFMC4zLjKYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwipkpC9jp3pAhVNXK0KHWIpBKcQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1588695148333

They are the price we pay for not having to get around on the backs of animals.

Never needed reefer trucks , mass graves and cremations to keep up with demand.

Not much traffic lately anyway.



			
				OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> "Over a mask. Over a mask?"



The mask issue reminds me a little bit of the seat belt issue in the late 1970's. Through education, and enforcement, people eventually got used to wearing them.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Seems weird that if someone gets into a car accident and dies while being covid19 positive their death gets registered as a covid19 death.



Is this something that actually happened or are you just speculating? How would Covid-19 be either the "immediate" or "antecedent" or an "underlying" cause of death. The requirements for completing a death certificate, including determining and listing cause of death, are generally the same in all jurisdictions in North America (and in most countries).

For Ontario, a guideline about completing a death certificate.
https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/store/20170501121/Free_Download_Files/016600.pdf

And this, from the CDC, is a more easily reading description of "cause of death".
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf


> Cause of death
> This section must be completed by either the attending physician, the medical examiner, or the coroner. The cause-of-death section, a facsimile of which is shown below, follows guidelines recommended by the World Health Organization. An important feature is the reported underlying cause of death determined by the certifying physician and defined as (a) the disease or injury that initiated the train of morbid events leading directly to death, or (b) the circumstances of the accident or violence that produced the fatal injury. In addition to the underlying cause of death, this section provides for reporting the entire sequence of events leading to death as well as other conditions significantly contributing to death.
> 
> The cause-of-death section is designed to elicit the opinion of the medical certifier. Causes of death on the death certificate represent a medical opinion that might vary among individual physicians. A properly completed cause-of-death section provides an etiologic explanation of the order, type, and association of events resulting in death. The initial condition that starts the etiologic sequence is specific if it does not leave any doubt as to why it developed. For example, sepsis is not specific because a number of different conditions may have resulted in sepsis, whereas human immunodeficiency virus syndrome is specific.
> 
> In certifying the cause of death, any disease, abnormality, injury, or poisoning, if believed to have adversely affected the decedent, should be reported. If the use of alcohol and/or other substance, a smoking history, a recent pregnancy, injury, or surgery was believed to have contributed to death, then this condition should be reported. The conditions present at the time of death may be completely unrelated, arising independently of each other; they may be causally related to each other, that is, one condition may lead to another which in turn leads to a third condition; and so forth. Death may also result from the combined effect of two or more conditions.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Colorado man planning armed protest against state's coronavirus restrictions arrested for pipe bombs*
> 
> A Colorado man arrested after federal agents allegedly discovered pipe bombs in his home had also been helping organize an armed protest demanding the state lift its coronavirus restrictions, an official briefed on the case tells ABC News.
> 
> FBI and ATF agents served search warrants Friday morning at the Loveland, Colorado, home of Bradley Bunn, 53. Agents discovered four pipe bombs and potential pipe bomb components inside the house, according to a press release from the office of U.S. Attorney for Colorado Jason Dunn.
> 
> Bunn came to the attention of law enforcement after using social media to encourage people to bring assault rifles to a planned May 1 rally at the Colorado capitol building, ABC News has learned.
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-man-planning-armed-protest-states-coronavirus-restrictions/story?id=70491370


----------



## mariomike

> 16,000 + New Yorkers dead in 8 weeks ...business as usual for people in NYC who just don't care.
> https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1256667909872648193


----------



## Quirky

0.001% of NYC population died, does that mean the other 99.99% are supposed to stay home forever? Life goes on. Looks like a good deal of separation in that park.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> 0.001% of NYC population died, does that mean the other 99.99% are supposed to stay home forever? Life goes on. Looks like a good deal of separation in that park.



I'm not an expert. 

But, it was posted by one, 

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01EQv1jFdMHU2jFbeS4g2YnoUVoaA%3A1588702871406&ei=l66xXpKqGJSztAbH0IiYBQ&q=%22cleavon+gilman%22+md&oq=%22cleavon+gilman%22+md&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIECCMQJzICCAAyAggAUKTYAVjT9wFgvpYCaABwAHgAgAHsAYgB0QSSAQUxLjIuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjS0bayq53pAhWUGc0KHUcoAlMQ4dUDCAs#spf=1588702909511


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> 0.001% of NYC population died, does that mean the other 99.99% are supposed to stay home forever?



That's exactly what it means Quirky. They need to stay home, _FOREVER._


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> But, it was posted by one,
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01EQv1jFdMHU2jFbeS4g2YnoUVoaA%3A1588702871406&ei=l66xXpKqGJSztAbH0IiYBQ&q=%22cleavon+gilman%22+md&oq=%22cleavon+gilman%22+md&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIECCMQJzICCAAyAggAUKTYAVjT9wFgvpYCaABwAHgAgAHsAYgB0QSSAQUxLjIuMZgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjS0bayq53pAhWUGc0KHUcoAlMQ4dUDCAs#spf=1588702909511



Are we supposed to read every Google search result for the MD, or is there a specific comment you think is important? I personally don't think this guy's affection for narrative medicine through hip-hop music is important to the conversation.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Is this something that actually happened or are you just speculating?


I was watching a video of a press release in the US. Believe she was a doctor, took the mic and explained that when someone dies with covid19, regardless of the cause of death, it's counted as a covid death. I'll look for it.


----------



## mariomike

I assume  we're all over 18. We can make our own decisions about our personal health. 

We can argue with strangers on the internet, listen to politicians, or listen to doctors.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Opportunity cost.

Those who choose to see and value only one thing are ignorant, not moral.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I was watching a video of a press release in the US. Believe she was a doctor, took the mic and explained that when someone dies with covid19, regardless of the cause of death, it's counted as a covid death. I'll look for it.



Some additional reading assignments.     (both are PDFs)

This from the CDC - Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

And this from the WHO - INTERNATIONAL GUIDELINES FOR CERTIFICATION AND CLASSIFICATION (CODING) OF COVID-19 AS CAUSE OF DEATH


In the WHO link, they show examples (go to page 7) of recording cases where death may have been influenced by COVID-19, but death was caused by another disease or an accident. One of the examples is of the scenario as you previously described.



> Note: Persons with COVID-19 may die of other diseases or accidents, *such cases are not deaths due
> to COVID-19 and should not be certified as such*. In case you think that COVID-19 aggravated the
> consequences of the accident, you may report COVID-19 in Part 2. Please remember to indicate the
> manner of death and record in part 1 the exact kind of an incident or other external cause.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thanks I appreciate that, I'll check these out. When I took a quick look before it looked like the US varies from state to state how they record deaths.


----------



## lenaitch

FJAG said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> ...
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/ohio-masks-likeness-of-god-nino-vitale_n_5eb0c6d6c5b62b850f90eb42?ri18n=true



Curse those surgery-performing, Scott Airpack-firefighting, fighter piloting, SCUBA diving heathens.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Thanks I appreciate that, I'll check these out. When I took a quick look before it looked like the US varies from state to state how they record deaths.



You may not be far wrong.  While there is the ideal (that which is outlined in guidelines such as the ones from CDC, et al), there is also reality.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/25/coronavirus-death-toll-hard-track-1-3-death-certificates-wrong/3020778001/


> One in 3 death certificates were wrong before coronavirus. It's about to get even worse.
> 
> Jessica Priest USA TODAY NETWORK
> 
> As the United States struggles to track coronavirus fatalities amid spotty testing, delayed lab results and inconsistent reporting standards, a more insidious problem could thwart the country's quest for an accurate death toll.
> 
> Between 20 and 30 percent of death certificates nationwide were wrong before COVID-19, Bob Anderson, chief of the mortality statistics branch at the National Center for Health Statistics, said in an interview with the USA TODAY Network.
> 
> “I’m always worried about getting good data. I think this sort of thing can be an issue even in a pandemic,” Anderson said.
> 
> Experts said the inaccuracies are part and parcel of a patchwork, state-by-state system of medical examiners, coroners and doctors who have disparate medical backgrounds, and in some cases none at all.
> 
> The problem is likely to get worse as the pandemic inundates overworked and sometimes untrained officials who fill out the forms.
> 
> Accurate death certificates are paramount for health officials trying to determine where to focus resources to fight the spread of the coronavirus, said Umair Shah, executive director of the Public Health Department in Harris County, Texas, which includes Houston.
> 
> “That death represents an ecosystem of people,” Shah said.
> 
> Inaccurate death reporting is a long-standing problem.
> 
> . . .


----------



## BDTyre

We here in BC hit a nice low of eight cases today. We just need to keep that sort of momentum going.


----------



## MilEME09

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We here in BC hit a nice low of eight cases today. We just need to keep that sort of momentum going.



We hit 57 in AB, they key here will be if we see cases decline more as we reopen or do we get a second wave.


----------



## NavyShooter

There will be a second wave...that was always the expectation....the isolation and social distancing and shut-downs were supposed to spread out the impact on hospitals, to give time to upgrade and increase equipment levels.  The goal was to reduce the impact to below the capacity of our ICUs - all the while increasing ICU capacity to handle the following wave(s)...or so I thought?


----------



## Cloud Cover

And to slow develop herd immunity while developing and deploying a vaccine.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>so I thought?

You thought (think) correctly: keep the hospitalization curve under the capacity curve.  And try to make maximum use of the "bandwidth" (capacity over time) to allow people to get sick and recover.


----------



## FSTO

Apologies if this has already been asked but is NDHQ going to come up with a policy or process for testing?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *US infection rate rising outside New York as states open up*
> 
> Take the New York metropolitan area’s progress against the coronavirus out of the equation and the numbers show the rest of the U.S. is moving in the wrong direction, with the known infection rate rising even as states move to lift their lockdowns, an Associated Press analysis found Tuesday.
> 
> New confirmed infections per day in the U.S. exceed 20,000, and deaths per day are well over 1,000, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University. And public health officials warn that the failure to flatten the curve and drive down the infection rate in places could lead to many more deaths - perhaps tens of thousands - as people are allowed to venture out and businesses reopen.
> 
> “Make no mistakes: This virus is still circulating in our community, perhaps even more now than in previous weeks” said Linda Ochs, director of the Health Department in Shawnee County, Kansas.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/4450a59eb5276bc5cecc61613e797018


----------



## Quirky

FSTO said:
			
		

> Apologies if this has already been asked but is NDHQ going to come up with a policy or process for testing?



There already is a policy - you get tested if you show symptoms. I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel from what the provinces are doing.


----------



## mariomike

The front page of the New York Daily News may put a bit of a fright into some.
https://www.facebook.com/NYDailyNews/photos/a.307670237540/10157156530587541/?type=3&theater

But, what I found interesting was the score keeping: "At least 20 bodies taken from Harlem nursing facility, but state reports only 5 died from Covid."

Paging Gov. Cuomo...

In other Covid related news,

"Sex for rent" is in the news,

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk03vH8xaDpT8R3TZAv6KkPemat950A%3A1588787314901&source=hp&ei=cviyXr6uNM7M0PEPoeeu0A0&q=%22sex+for+rent%22&oq=%22sex+for+rent%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIECAAQAzIFCAAQgwEyBAgAEEMyBAgAEEMyAggAOgQIIxAnOgcIABAUEIcCOgcIABCDARBDOgoIABCDARAUEIcCUMMMWLAtYI4xaABwAHgAgAGDBogB8BOSAQoyLjEwLjEuNi0xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwi-r5r85Z_pAhVOJjQIHaGzC9oQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1588787323348

Reminds me of the old song about Mrs. Rip Van Winkle,


Oh, oh, many years ago
Lived the wife of happy Rip Van Winkle
Oh, oh, she sent him away
As the little stars began to twinkle
All that he had he had under his hat
She was glad to see him go
So over the hills he went
Left her without a cent
One thing I'm anxious to know

Who paid the rent for Mrs. Rip Van Winkle
When Rip Van Winkle went away?
And though he slept for twenty years
Who was it kissed away her tears?

She had no friends in the place
No one to embrace
But the landlord always left her with a smile on his face
Oh, who paid the rent for Mrs. Rip Van Winkle
When Rip Van Winkle went away?

C'mon, tell me!

Who paid the rent for Mrs. Rip Van Winkle
When Rip Van Winkle went away?
And though he slept for twenty years
Who was it kissed away her tears?

She never married again
She was lonesome but then
You'll always find a rooster
Lookin' round for a hen

Who paid the rent for Mrs. Rip Van Winkle
When Rip Van Winkle went away?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Why officials took over this Calgary seniors home with a COVID-19 outbreak (and 4 others with the same owner)
Clues offered by warning signs and parent company's track record of having 4 other homes taken over in B.C.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/millrise-calgary-seniors-covid-pandemic-von-scheel-1.5554991


> Elise von Scheel · CBC News · Posted: May 06, 2020 3:00 AM MT | Last Updated: 3 hours ago
> 
> It's the note anyone with a relative in a seniors' facility dreads: "We wish to advise you that two residents of Millrise Care Centre have tested positive for COVID-19."
> 
> Both of Michael Sondermann's parents live at Millrise, in Calgary's south end, which on Monday became one of only two seniors care facilities in the province to be taken over by Alberta health authorities for failing to provide the basic standards of care amid the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> It's actually the fifth time that provincial health services have seized a seniors care home owned by the same parent company — Retirement Concepts, which was controversially bought by a Chinese company a few years ago and operates homes in B.C., Alberta and Quebec.
> 
> Sondermann says he had been wary about the home before the pandemic, but the details that have emerged since that outbreak notice have "distressed" him.
> 
> It was mid-April. Sondermann's mother told him she hadn't been informed the outbreak was COVID or told that she needed to stay isolated in her room.
> 
> He spoke with the manager for clarification, who he says informed him they "never considered" isolating the residents. The manager also said some residents were not told about the positive cases in an effort to avoid causing anxiety, Sondermann said.
> 
> . . .
> 
> AHS steps in
> The week the outbreak there was confirmed, AHS sent a manager to oversee the response. Later, 20 AHS staff members were loaned to the facility.
> 
> Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Deena Hinshaw said the health authority encountered "patient care issues" and "challenges" getting the home to follow outbreak guidelines.
> 
> Hinshaw warned if Millrise didn't increase the level of care, AHS would escalate its actions — and it did. AHS formally took over the home on Monday, retaining AgeCare Health Services to manage the facility.
> 
> "The only conclusion that I can draw from it is that Millrise itself was unprepared for what happened and that they weren't able to manage on a day-to-day basis on their own. And that's really disturbing," Sondermann said.
> 
> Millrise has been inspected at least once annually, in keeping with Alberta's care home regulations. More than half of the inspections in the past three years found the facility in violation.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Track record of troubles in B.C.
> This isn't the first time Retirement Concepts has faced outside action from a provincial health authority. In fact, Millrise is its fifth home to be seized by health services. Four of the company's facilities in British Columbia have been taken over in the past six months for failing to meet basic standards of care — a very rare move in the province.
> 
> B.C. medical officers had attempted to have the company comply with corrections without success.
> 
> "We have a serious process of when it's required to take a seniors home under administration. The law has been in place since 1990. It's only been used seven times in its whole history. And we've used it four times in six months — all of them facilities owned by Retirement Concepts," B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix told CBC Radio in February.
> 
> Retirement Concepts used to be domestically owned. In 2017, the federal government ignored pushback and approved its sale to an insurance company, Anbang, based in Beijing. The founder of that enterprise was sentenced to 18 years in prison for fraud the following year. China took state custody of the company for two years, releasing it this February.
> 
> B.C. has had a difficult time getting accountability from the foreign organization. The province says it hasn't been in contact with Alberta about its concerns with Retirement Concepts.
> 
> That company operates 17 facilities in B.C., two in Alberta — Monterey Seniors Village and Millrise — and one in Quebec.
> 
> . . .



Much more at link.


----------



## kkwd

What is the scientific analysis of the lock down? Is it effective, helpful, ineffective, harmful or no effect. A new report from New York seems to point to new infections as being at home and not working.



> Cuomo: Data shows most new COVID-19 patients in New York are at home and not working



https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cuomo-coronavirus-patients-new-york-at-home-not-working/


----------



## kkwd

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> US infection rate rising outside New York as states open up
> 
> Take the New York metropolitan area’s progress against the coronavirus out of the equation and the numbers show the rest of the U.S. is moving in the wrong direction, with the known infection rate rising even as states move to lift their lockdowns, an Associated Press analysis found Tuesday.
> 
> New confirmed infections per day in the U.S. exceed 20,000, and deaths per day are well over 1,000, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University. And public health officials warn that the failure to flatten the curve and drive down the infection rate in places could lead to many more deaths - perhaps tens of thousands - as people are allowed to venture out and businesses reopen.
> 
> “Make no mistakes: This virus is still circulating in our community, perhaps even more now than in previous weeks” said Linda Ochs, director of the Health Department in Shawnee County, Kansas.
> https://apnews.com/4450a59eb5276bc5cecc61613e797018


Can this be attributed to the reopening or increased testing. It has been mentioned that after protests that the infection rate increased. I never see the mention of increased testing as the possible reason for the increase. Maybe I am wrong but more tests equals more detected infections?


----------



## mariomike

San Francisco’s health dept. is administering alcohol, tobacco, medical cannabis and other substances in an effort to prevent a handful of people quarantined or isolating in city-leased hotels from going outside to get the drugs themselves.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/SF-providing-medications-alcohol-cannabis-to-15251350.php

"Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Dallas Vegas with all that stuff."
Major T. J. "King" Kong


----------



## OceanBonfire

kkwd said:
			
		

> Can this be attributed to the reopening or increased testing. It has been mentioned that after protests that the infection rate increased. I never see the mention of increased testing as the possible reason for the increase. Maybe I am wrong but more tests equals more detected infections?



In the link:



> U.S. testing for the virus has been expanded, and that has probably contributed to the increasing rate of confirmed infections. But it doesn’t explain the entire increase, said Dr. Zuo-Feng Zhang, a public health researcher at the University of California at Los Angeles.
> 
> "This increase is not because of testing. It’s a real increase," he said.


----------



## tomahawk6

Researchers may have found the cause of virus deaths - vitamin D deficiency.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/vitamin-d-levels-covid-19-mortality-rates


----------



## PMedMoe

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Researchers may have found the cause of virus deaths - vitamin D deficiency.
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/science/vitamin-d-levels-covid-19-mortality-rates


  

I wouldn't say it's the "cause", just one of many factors.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200507121353.htm


----------



## daftandbarmy

'I might have died if they hadn't rescued me': life inside the new hotels for the homeless

During our visit on Monday, the hotel seems remarkably calm. “The levels of behaviour have been what you would expect in a hotel, not a hostel,” says Samantha Dorney-Smith, a nurse with the Pathway charity, which lobbies for better healthcare for rough sleepers. She has been registering residents with GPs (often for the first time) and getting them help with drug, alcohol and mental health services. She describes the exercise as “a very interesting social experiment”. “If you give people what they want, they tend to take the sensible decisions. The whole focus has been on keeping people quiet and happy – and maybe we should continue like that, because, funnily enough, it works.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/07/i-might-have-died-if-hadnt-rescued-me-hotels-for-homeless


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> She describes the exercise as “a very interesting social experiment”. “If you give people what they want, they tend to take the sensible decisions. The whole focus has been on keeping people quiet and happy – and maybe we should continue like that, because, funnily enough, it works.”



Who's going to pay for it, though?


----------



## Ralph

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Who's going to pay for it, though?


I guess that depends; is your family motto "Eff you, I'm okay"?


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Who" is taxpayers, of course.

There is a very small fraction - call it the far left-hand tail of something resembling a bell curve - of people who, for whatever reason, are low-functioning.  We can either do something, or admit that we're just going to cast them off.  Choose your side.  

If we do something, it has to be limited and focused - it can't become a gravy train for capable people or for providers.  We might have to stop doing something else in order to set aside the resources.

In the immediate term, "who" is an important question - no trade, no taxes.  No taxes, no programs or pay or pensions.


----------



## FJAG

A very informative page about Covid and some theories about how it spreads and how to avoid the spread.

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

 :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Armed black citizens escort Michigan lawmaker to capitol after volatile rightwing protest

State representative Sarah Anthony says she wanted to highlight failure of policing after armed white protesters demonstrated

A black lawmaker came to Michigan’s capitol with an escort of armed black citizens on Wednesday, days after white protesters with guns staged a volatile protest inside the state house, comparing the Democratic governor’s public health orders to “tyranny”.

The state representative Sarah Anthony, 36, said she wanted to highlight what she saw as the failure of the Michigan capitol police to provide legislators with adequate security during the protest, which saw demonstrators with rifles standing in the legislative chamber above lawmakers.

“When traditional systems, whether it’s law enforcement or whatever, fail us, we also have the ability to take care of ourselves,” she told the Guardian. Anthony became the first African American woman elected to represent her district in Lansing, Michigan’s capital, in 2018.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/07/michigan-lawmaker-armed-escort-rightwing-protest


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 'I might have died if they hadn't rescued me': life inside the new hotels for the homeless
> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/07/i-might-have-died-if-hadnt-rescued-me-hotels-for-homeless



That's London, England.

In NYC, it's the Bentley Hotel on the Upper East Side, of course.

The Bentley is so posh ...it made the front page of today's New York Daily News.

WELCOME TO THE BENTLEY HOTEL NEW YORK 
https://bentleyhotelnyc.com/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Is is too early to start drinking?? :waiting:


https://canoe.com/news/world/covidiots-gather-with-infected-in-order-to-catch-virus/wcm/deaec2b4-8ef8-4c5e-9c1e-9633c660d2d7


Amid a pandemic causing so much death and destruction, a bunch of cov-idiots are gleefully arranging gatherings with the stated intent to contract the virus, warn officials.

Dubbed “COVID-19 parties,” the Washington state county of Walla Walla report the emergence of an imbecilic initiative where healthy people mingle with infected individuals hoping to contract the virus and then hoping to bounce back from the killer disease.

“Walla Walla County health officials are receiving reports of COVID-19 parties occurring in our community, where non-infected people mingle with an infected person in an effort to catch the virus,” the county said in a press release.
This senseless and completely moronic practice was discovered when officials started contact tracing.

According to Meghan DeBolt, director of the county Department of Community Health, at least 25 people were infected after they attended these functions.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Armed black citizens escort Michigan lawmaker to capitol after volatile rightwing protest
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/07/michigan-lawmaker-armed-escort-rightwing-protest



What could possibly go wrong?
https://www.google.com/search?q=armed%20michigan&tbm=isch&tbs=qdr%3Am&hl=en&ved=0CAMQpwVqFwoTCLCj6tvdpukCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC&biw=1269&bih=641


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:
			
		

> What could possibly go wrong?
> https://www.google.com/search?q=armed%20michigan&tbm=isch&tbs=qdr%3Am&hl=en&ved=0CAMQpwVqFwoTCLCj6tvdpukCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC&biw=1269&bih=641



Nothing at all.  That’s the beauty of the 2nd Amendment of the American Constitution.  It’s the right of all Americans to bear arms equally. 

_edit for spelling_


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Nothing at all.  That’s the beauty of the 2nd Amendment of the American Constitution.  It’s is the right of all Americans to bear arms equally.



Thank-you for explaining that to me. 

I guess that, explains this,



> BBC
> 
> America's gun culture in charts
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Thank-you for explaining that to me.
> 
> I guess that, explains this,


How many shootouts have happened at these covid protests by all those assault gun wielding militiamen?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamer, as I already replied to Good2Golf,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Thank-you for explaining that to me.



I just know what I read in the papers, and explained on here.



> Global News.ca
> 
> ‘Very good people’: Trump backs armed effort to storm Michigan capitol over coronavirus rules
> 
> U.S. President Donald Trump described hundreds of armed, primarily white protesters who stormed the Michigan Capitol building as “very good people,” amid accusations that the gun-toting demonstrators were acting like “terrorists” in the way they protested the state’s coronavirus lockdown.
> 
> Many of the protesters showed up with AR-15 rifles, tactical gear and a mix of camouflage and star-spangled apparel for their “American Patriot Rally” at the state capitol in Lansing, Mich., on Thursday. The group crowded into the state capitol building and tried to force its way past Michigan State Police to break up a meeting about the crisis, while chanting for the state to end the lockdowns.
> 
> Trump himself seemed to encourage protests against Whitmer last month, when he urged his Twitter followers to “LIBERATE” three states with Democratic governors, including Michigan.
> 
> More at link ( if interested ).
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6892207/coronavirus-protest-michigan-donald-trump/



For reference to the discussion of armed Americans at Coronavirus rallies,

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Am&sxsrf=ALeKk03PKI_3_2_PdnytxZ4XRJad10eknQ%3A1589032892621&ei=vLe2Xt_KJcGl_Qbr26-QBA&q=covid+protest+armed&oq=covid+protest+armed&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAA6BAgjECc6BggAEBYQHjoHCAAQFBCHAlCMXVjeaWDFfGgAcAB4AIAB5ASIAfAOkgEJMC4zLjQtMi4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjfmOfo-KbpAhXBUt8KHevtC0I4ChDh1QMICw#spf=1589032910258


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Jarnhamer, as I already replied to Good2Golf,
> 
> I just know what I read in the papers, and explained on here.
> 
> For reference to the discussion of armed Americans at Coronavirus rallies,
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Am&sxsrf=ALeKk03PKI_3_2_PdnytxZ4XRJad10eknQ%3A1589032892621&ei=vLe2Xt_KJcGl_Qbr26-QBA&q=covid+protest+armed&oq=covid+protest+armed&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDICCAA6BAgjECc6BggAEBYQHjoHCAAQFBCHAlCMXVjeaWDFfGgAcAB4AIAB5ASIAfAOkgEJMC4zLjQtMi4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjfmOfo-KbpAhXBUt8KHevtC0I4ChDh1QMICw#spf=1589032910258



That lot really need a 'Freedom Sergeant Major' to get a grip of them. Scruffy.... nice to see most of them 'indexing' though


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Jarnhamer, as I already replied to Good2Golf,



Right on. Maybe we'll get treated to some camo wearing armed protests here.





*
Docs show top WH officials buried CDC report
*
_GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — The decision to shelve detailed advice from the nation’s top disease control experts for reopening communities during the coronavirus pandemic came from the highest levels of the White House, according to internal government emails obtained by The Associated Press.

The files also show that after the AP reported Thursday that the guidance document had been buried, the Trump administration ordered key parts of it to be fast-tracked for approval._

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/newspolitics/ap-exclusive-docs-show-top-wh-officials-buried-cdc-report/ar-BB13PgjS


Hope the PM keeps the border closed for a few more months.


----------



## Remius

It may be required.  But there will be a lot pressure from the US to reopen.  


Edit: spelling


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> It may be required.  But their will be  lot pressure from the US to reopen.



If Trump calls we can just pull a Bruce Aylward.


----------



## Quirky

Socialism at its finest. Why bother working when you can sit home? Good trial run for UBI to see how much an utter failure it would be.

*'They'd rather stay home': Farmer struggling to hire workers who are collecting CERB*
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/they-d-rather-stay-home-farmer-struggling-to-hire-workers-who-are-collecting-cerb-1.4931833

What a shit show.  :facepalm:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Socialism at its finest. Why bother working when you can sit home? Good trial run for UBI to see how much an utter failure it would be.
> 
> *'They'd rather stay home': Farmer struggling to hire workers who are collecting CERB*
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/they-d-rather-stay-home-farmer-struggling-to-hire-workers-who-are-collecting-cerb-1.4931833
> 
> What a shit show.  :facepalm:





> VANCOUVER -- Berries are ripening and the prime time to pick them is just around the corner, but Khushvinder Singh Maan is struggling to hire enough help to ensure the his crop is picked in time.



Send the army.


----------



## garb811

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Is is too early to start drinking?? :waiting:
> 
> 
> https://canoe.com/news/world/covidiots-gather-with-infected-in-order-to-catch-virus/wcm/deaec2b4-8ef8-4c5e-9c1e-9633c660d2d7
> 
> 
> Amid a pandemic causing so much death and destruction, a bunch of cov-idiots are gleefully arranging gatherings with the stated intent to contract the virus, warn officials.
> 
> Dubbed “COVID-19 parties,” the Washington state county of Walla Walla report the emergence of an imbecilic initiative where healthy people mingle with infected individuals hoping to contract the virus and then hoping to bounce back from the killer disease.
> 
> “Walla Walla County health officials are receiving reports of COVID-19 parties occurring in our community, where non-infected people mingle with an infected person in an effort to catch the virus,” the county said in a press release.
> This senseless and completely moronic practice was discovered when officials started contact tracing.
> 
> According to Meghan DeBolt, director of the county Department of Community Health, at least 25 people were infected after they attended these functions.


Not a new phenomenon by any means.

Bug chasers are folks who actively seek to become infected with HIV.
Anti-vaxxers have re-started pox parties...


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> Socialism at its finest. Why bother working when you can sit home? Good trial run for UBI to see how much an utter failure it would be.
> 
> *'They'd rather stay home': Farmer struggling to hire workers who are collecting CERB*
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/they-d-rather-stay-home-farmer-struggling-to-hire-workers-who-are-collecting-cerb-1.4931833
> 
> What a crap show.  :facepalm:



This isn’t shocking.  International workers are normally brought in because locals don’t want to do that work.  CERB or no CERB.  

International workers can’t be brought in.  

My neighbours are engineers.  They qualify for CERB or the Wage subsidy.  They aren’t going to pick berries when they know they will be rehired. 

Plus some people are still worried that they might catch COVID.  That’s another factor.

UBI has nothing to do with CERB and doesn’t work that way.  True UBI could work if you dropped all other social programs.  

Either way, if this would be normal times and we banned international workers, locals would not be lining up to do those jobs either.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:
			
		

> This isn’t shocking.  International workers are normally brought in because locals don’t want to do that work.  CERB or no CERB.
> 
> International workers can’t be brought in.
> 
> My neighbours are engineers.  They qualify for CERB or the Wage subsidy.  They aren’t going to pick berries when they know they will be rehired.
> 
> Plus some people are still worried that they might catch COVID.  That’s another factor.
> 
> UBI has nothing to do with CERB and doesn’t work that way.  True UBI could work if you dropped all other social programs.
> 
> Either way, if this would be normal times and we banned international workers, locals would not be lining up to do those jobs either.



Yup. Canadians aren't willing to get down on hands and knees in farm fields for twelve hours a day picking berries and vegetables. There's a reason we have to bring in tens of thousands of temporary foreign workers each year to do these jobs. Canadians won't fill these jobs evg en if they aren't receiving government benefits. There's nothing new here, and misattributing it to CERB-induced laziness does not match the facts.

There's some background on the seasonal worker program here: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/migrant-farm-workers-and-the-cruel-trade-off-at-your-local-produce-aisle/

And also some other very valid concerns about trying to re-role laid off Canadians into farm workers here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-temporary-foreign-workers-farm-forth-1.5535821


----------



## Jarnhamar

*
China asked the WHO to cover up the coronavirus outbreak: German intelligence serviceDelay cost the world 4 to 6 weeks: BND* 



> TAIPEI (Taiwan News) – Chinese leader Xi Jinping (習近平) asked World Health Organization (WHO) Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to suppress news about the Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak, the German intelligence agency BND found, according to a report by German magazine Der Spiegel.
> 
> During a conversation on Jan. 21, Xi reportedly asked Tedros not to announce that the virus could be transmitted between humans and to delay any declaration of a coronavirus pandemic.





> Germany’s Robert Koch Institute also said that China failed to reveal all relevant information at the outset of the epidemic, leading it to turn to the BND for advice, according to a report in the Sueddeutsche Zeitung quoted by CNA.



https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126

Der Spiegel seems to have a high factual reporting rate.


----------



## MilEME09

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *
> China asked the WHO to cover up the coronavirus outbreak: German intelligence serviceDelay cost the world 4 to 6 weeks: BND*
> 
> 
> 
> Https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3931126
> 
> Der Spiegel seems to have a high factual reporting rate.



Link appears to be broken


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thanks I edited it.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post (Dick Fadden a co-author of _Globe and Mail_ piece on which it is based):



> COVID-19, or, Pity the Poor World Having to Deal with the Chicoms and Trump at the Same Time
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trump and der Untergang der Vereinigten Staaten–can the Chicoms under Xi Fill the Void?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> note the authors of this piece in the _Globe and Mail_...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/05/09/covid-19-or-pity-the-poor-world-having-to-deal-with-the-chicoms-and-trump-at-the-same-time/
Click to expand...


Mark Collins


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:
			
		

> This isn’t shocking.  International workers are normally brought in because locals don’t want to do that work.  CERB or no CERB.
> 
> International workers can’t be brought in.
> 
> My neighbours are engineers.  They qualify for CERB or the Wage subsidy.  They aren’t going to pick berries when they know they will be rehired.
> 
> Plus some people are still worried that they might catch COVID.  That’s another factor.
> 
> UBI has nothing to do with CERB and doesn’t work that way.  True UBI could work if you dropped all other social programs.
> 
> Either way, if this would be normal times and we banned international workers, locals would not be lining up to do those jobs either.



Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries. If I had a kid at home doing nothing all day but playing xbox I’d kick him outside for some work. This will be the norm in many cities and small businesses across the country. With government handout programs still in effect and businesses opening up, no one will get off their *** to work for minimum wage. It’s time to turn off the liberal cash tap. This entire thing is obviously overblown, it’s time to reopen the economy. Dead seniors in care homes, which make up 80% of Canadian deaths, while unfortunate, are not a good enough reason to cripple the rest of us.


----------



## FJAG

Quirky said:
			
		

> Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries. If I had a kid at home doing nothing all day but playing xbox I’d kick him outside for some work. This will be the norm in many cities and small businesses across the country. With government handout programs still in effect and businesses opening up, no one will get off their *** to work for minimum wage. It’s time to turn off the liberal cash tap. ...



My daughter spent her first summer after graduating university working at a potato farm in Carberry Manitoba. She came home pretty much exhausted every night but stuck it out through to the end of the harvest. Quite the character building experience.

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

> Dubbed “COVID-19 parties,” the Washington state county of Walla Walla report the emergence of an imbecilic initiative where healthy people mingle with infected individuals hoping to contract the virus and then hoping to bounce back from the killer disease.



I didn't hear of any "SARS parties" when the fatality rate in Canada was 38.5%. It fell to about 20% by the end of April and stabilized at about 17% in late June.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries. If I had a kid at home doing nothing all day but playing xbox I’d kick him outside for some work.



That's right. Millions unemployed, but they won't pick berries. Did you read what I provided above? Farmers have tried to source domestic labour for these job, but they just can't. The jobs are hard, tiring, and dirty, and Canadians won't do them. So foreigners happy for the chance to make western dollars (even at minimum wage) show up and do it so they can feed their families. Farmers aren't looking for kids used to a couch or an x box. They're looking for people who will spend all day in the dirty working their asses off for months straight. A small number of Canadians will do it, but far from enough to sustain that segment of the labour market.



> This will be the norm in many cities and small businesses across the country. With government handout programs still in effect and businesses opening up, no one will get off their *** to work for minimum wage. It’s time to turn off the liberal cash tap. This entire thing is obviously overblown, it’s time to reopen the economy. Dead seniors in care homes, which make up 80% of Canadian deaths, while unfortunate, are not a good enough reason to cripple the rest of us.



Lots of people are still getting up every day and working their asses off for minimum wage. Also, to be eligible for CERB, they have to be out of work due to COVID related criteria. You can't just quit your job. People who have been temporarily laid off and who are offered their jobs back are expected to take it.

You seem to be struggling with the fact that the situation in terms of the medical system and the total deaths (and who is dying) is basically only because of the steps taken. It would have been very bad if not for what was done to get in front of the spread of the virus. Fortunately, by following the advice of the real experts (the epidemiologists and community health professionals) we kept this manageable. If we stay smart and conduct the economic re-opening very carefully, it may well stay that way.

We get that your compassion for thsoe most at risk of this virus is quite limited. You've made that abundantly clear. It's evident by your numerous comments on the matter that the value you place in their lives does not rank much (if at all) above the average Joe continuing to cash a minimum wage pay cheque. Fine. Fortunately you aren't making the decisions, and we have vastly fewer people dying due to COVID because those who call the shots are are taking a broader perspective. You don't get to simply cash in my parents for a car payment.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:
			
		

> Millions unemployed and this farmer still can%u2019t find someone to pick his berries. If I had a kid at home doing nothing all day but playing xbox I%u2019d kick him outside for some work. This will be the norm in many cities and small businesses across the country. With government handout programs still in effect and businesses opening up, no one will get off their *** to work for minimum wage. It%u2019s time to turn off the liberal cash tap. This entire thing is obviously overblown, it%u2019s time to reopen the economy. Dead seniors in care homes, which make up 80% of Canadian deaths, while unfortunate, are not a good enough reason to cripple the rest of us.



Some of us are well aware on your view of %u201CDead Seniors in care homes%u201D.  You expressed that view earlier when all of this started.  I don%u2019t share it.  In fact I reject it. 


So it%u2019s been explained that this virus is new and unknown.  Hence the term Novel.  That%u2019s why we have to be careful.  Measured.

Look at the Cardiel meat plant.  So many people got infected there that workers don%u2019t feel safe going back and are taking leaves of absence rather than go back.  Why some people can%u2019t make the link between a healthy and safe workspace and productivity is perplexing.  Even the super duper awesome round table of industry captains and CEOs have said so.  

The latest Ipsos poll has 75% of Canadians approving of what the government is doing. 

Some people don%u2019t want to  work any job at minimum wage,  regardless of whatever gets doled out, virus or no virus.  That is the norm already for farmers and seasonal work in industries like that.  Nothing new.

You mention the liberal cash tap, how about conservative governments like Ontario or the trillions spent in the US with Trumps name all over their cheques?  This isn%u2019t a political mess.  It%u2019s a global mess and everyone is reacting as best they can to keep people fed, housed and alive.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries.

Are you willing to pay more for berries?  People are not easily attracted to physically taxing, low-paid work unless their alternatives are worse.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries.
> 
> _*Are you willing to pay more for berries?  People are not easily attracted to physically taxing, low-paid work unless their alternatives are worse.
> *_



And the alternatives may very well become worse. Or, innovation and technology could supplant contemporary techniques.

In the late 60's/early seventies, every year in the August timeframe, my entire family (who were subsistence farmers) would rake blueberries in Nova Scotia. We were paid about 4 cents per pound, and on a really good day, in a really good field, could rake between 250-400 pounds each in a ten hour day. For the 6 of us, that translated into about $60 to a hundred bucks a week, which my Grandfather then put into the family pot. Raking lasted about three weeks, but enabled us to buy the other things that we didn't grow/raise/hunt/knit etc. In the 90's, the advent of mechanical blueberry harvesters made this practice obsolete.

I have no doubt that the next few years will be trying. Some of the things we have come to expect will disappear, or will become like caviar and truffles, exotic and expensive. I also expect many more people to begin backyard farming and other DIY solutions. Supply chain dynamics will demand it


----------



## kratz

FJAG said:
			
		

> My daughter spent her first summer after graduating university working at a potato farm in Carberry Manitoba. She came home pretty much exhausted every night but stuck it out through to the end of the harvest. Quite the character building experience.
> 
> :cheers:



What is wrong with this exposure to the land?

I grew up in town with rural family / friends. I had to wok those same crappy physical summers...and the experience set me up for a positive education and career.


----------



## mariomike

It is not just your hospital bed for when you are being treated in the hospital ...it is also your coffin in case you don't make it.



> 9 May, 2020
> 
> Hospital beds that double as coffins developed amid coronavirus pandemic
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-hospital-beds-double-coffins-developed-20200509-vvb6oyeuuvd6xjar7e5frjm5ay-story.html


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

What a novel ... I mean NAVAL idea !!!

In the days of sailing men-of-war, upon joining a ship in the Royal Navy, the naval officers would have the ship's carpenter fabricate a wooden box which was meant to hang from the deck-head on slings and act as the officer's bunk (not for officers, hammock were). If perchance he died at sea, they simply put him in it  and nailed a cover, using it as the officer's coffin for a proper Christian burial at sea.

Of course poor seamen had no such dignified burial, they were wrapped in old sails, stitched closed and weighted with old iron, shots or bricks/stones at hand so it would sink.


----------



## Quirky

Brihard said:
			
		

> You seem to be struggling with the fact that the situation in terms of the medical system and the total deaths (and who is dying) is basically only because of the steps taken. It would have been very bad if not for what was done to get in front of the spread of the virus. Fortunately, by following the advice of the real experts (the epidemiologists and community health professionals)



This country is now Billions in more debt, millions are unemployed and living off social assistance, jobs are lost forever, house foreclosures, bankruptcies, future health complications from missing “non essential” surgeries and treatment, the list goes on. This is the cost of hiding from the Covid boogyman. There are so called experts on both sides of the argument. 



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Millions unemployed and this farmer still can’t find someone to pick his berries.
> 
> Are you willing to pay more for berries?  People are not easily attracted to physically taxing, low-paid work unless their alternatives are worse.



Not sure why you use “> <“ to quote posts? In any case, we already overpay for food in Canada, why not jack up the price more.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> Some of us are well aware on your view of %u201CDead Seniors in care homes%u201D.  You expressed that view earlier when all of this started.  I don%u2019t share it.  In fact I reject it.
> Look at the Cardiel meat plant.  So many people got infected there that workers don%u2019t feel safe going back and are taking leaves of absence rather than go back



Of course they are staying home, why would you go to work when a $2k cheque’ is waiting for you instead? You can reject my view all you want, but the real killer in all this won’t be virus itself, but the consequences of our current response. 

This Swedish Expert Scientist gets it: https://youtu.be/2SdUmsMLW0o


----------



## Remius

Sorry quirk.  People who can work and are essential workers aren’t covered by the CERB if they choose not to work because they don’t feel safe. 

So those people are taking lwop.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Quirky]

Of course they are staying home, why would you go to work when a $2k cheque’ is waiting for you instead? 
[/quote]

Ethics, integrity and professionalism. But I know what you mean. 

Sitting at home and getting paid for it can be a tough habit to break.

I bet there's going to be a bunch of people who will be looking to extend past 4 months.

I have a feeling the CAF will see an uptick in members who discover they just can't go back to work too.


----------



## MilEME09

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ethics, integrity and professionalism. But I know what you mean.
> 
> Sitting at home and getting paid for it can be a tough habit to break.
> 
> I bet there's going to be a bunch of people who will be looking to extend past 4 months.
> 
> I have a feeling the CAF will see an uptick in members who discover they just can't go back to work too.



My work has said they will close till January, what I will do come September I don't know yet, not many would hire for only 4 months of work.


----------



## Kirkhill

Politicians now discovering the hardest job a Section Leader has to face.

Once the Section has gone to ground, and the Section Leader has determined that the fire fight is won, how do you get them up and moving again?

It's nice and comfy lying in the grass.


----------



## FJAG

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Politicians now discovering the hardest job a Section Leader has to face.
> 
> Once the Section has gone to ground, and the Section Leader has determined that the fire fight is won, how do you get them up and moving again?
> 
> It's nice and comfy lying in the grass.



That's actually very profound and quite apt.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sitting at home and getting paid for it can be a tough habit to break.



Been doing that for over 11 years. But, those who do not get to enjoy the comfort and safety of their homes - even when they go off duty, rather than risk infecting their families - are in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Politicians now discovering the hardest job a Section Leader has to face.
> 
> Once the Section has gone to ground, and the Section Leader has determined that the fire fight is won, how do you get them up and moving again?
> 
> It's nice and comfy lying in the grass.



A lot of people being paid to stay at home are now finding second jobs in construction, landscaping, bookkeeping and other professions under stress. The ‘under the table’ economy is booming in good old Canadian grifter fashion ...

Just sayin’


----------



## Jarnhamar

JP Sears - What It's Like to Believe Everything the Media Tells You

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUAG6t5aN8#action=share


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> JP Sears - What It's Like to Believe Everything the Media Tells You
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcUAG6t5aN8#action=share



Oh please.  It would be nice if this thread could stay serious.

https://medium.com/@CKava/the-problem-with-jp-sears-2c5d1b8664fd


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Oh please.  It would be nice if this thread could stay serious.



You watched the 8 minute and 36 second video in under 3 minutes? 

JP Sears uses satire to bring up some very interesting points and observations about the Covid19 lock down and the way the media and government are handling it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You watched the 8 minute and 36 second video in under 3 minutes?
> 
> JP Sears uses satire to bring up some very interesting points and observations about the Covid19 lock down and the way the media and government are handling it.



Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously

This is not a straightforward battle between a pro-human and a pro-economy camp.

“A prolonged depression will stunt lives as surely as any viral epidemic, and its toll will not be confined to the elderly,” Heather Mac Donald argues at Spectator USA. “The shuttering of auto manufacturing plants led to an 85 percent increase in opioid overdose deaths in the surrounding counties over seven years, according to a recent study.” Deficit spending may be necessary to keep people afloat, she continued, but the wealth that permits it could quickly evaporate. “The enormously complex web of trade, once killed, cannot be brought back to life by government stimulus. And who is going to pay for all that deficit spending as businesses close and tax revenues disappear?”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/take-shutdown-skeptics-seriously/611419/


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You watched the 8 minute and 36 second video in under 3 minutes?
> 
> JP Sears uses satire to bring up some very interesting points and observations about the Covid19 lock down and the way the media and government are handling it.



I've seen the video already.  He's an internet comedian and an "emotional healing coach" (whatever _that_ is).  I'll take anything he says with a grain big dose of salt.  He's probably just hoping to get views and subscribers.

I will give him one thing, the mortality rate for COVID is much less than originally thought, however, I don't believe it's as low as he claims it is.  The rest of his blurb is just fuel for the conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Quirky

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I've seen the video already.  He's an internet comedian and an "emotional healing coach" (whatever _that_ is).  I'll take anything he says with a grain big dose of salt.  He's probably just hoping to get views and subscribers.



He's doing something right, his other videos are hilarious more than anything. 

https://statsmash.com/calculator/awakenwithjp-net-worth


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The rest of his blurb is just fuel for the conspiracy theorists.



Read an interesting article about them,



> NBC
> 
> Coronavirus conspiracy theorists have now revealed themselves. What can the rest of us do?
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/coronavirus-conspiracy-theorists-have-now-revealed-themselves-what-can-rest-ncna1200736


----------



## kkwd

This is not as exciting as a conspiracy theory but it is view on the real life effects on people. A local hospital system sent out an email to nurses that they should be looking for another job as they may not be gainfully employed much longer. There were so many affected they couldn't even pay one on one attention to them. The same system says it will no longer pay doctors after May 15th. We personally know a nurse who went from OB to med-surg in the same hospital the day of the lock down. She arrived at her new job and they told her they didn't have any use for her. 



> As Hospitals Lose Revenue, More Than A Million Health Care Workers Lose Jobs



https://www.npr.org/2020/05/08/852435761/as-hospitals-lose-revenue-thousands-of-health-care-workers-face-furloughs-layoff?fbclid=IwAR1LesuY-Sn1MCosK-wiTmog9Ttej73tA5pf2ceoMm7BnDyxvC7bQ0X8KC8


----------



## kkwd

Well, the day is here, more openings of more businesses and facilities. My opinion and your opinion doesn't count for tens of millions of people out there. All that matters is what is happening in their small piece of real estate and taking care of the people there. They want to figure out how to keep that real estate and how to feed the people in it. Maybe they pick going back to work. They know the risks and precautions to take and don't require the close supervision of the government. After all, people have to be trusted to do the right thing and become dependent on themselves again instead of relying on the government.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> A lot of people being paid to stay at home are now finding second jobs in construction, landscaping, bookkeeping and other professions under stress. The ‘under the table’ economy is booming in good old Canadian grifter fashion ...
> 
> Just sayin’



I wonder if "people being paid to stay at home", will have a job to return to if / when their employers find out?


Regarding possible layoffs in emergency services,



> CTV
> 
> VANCOUVER -- The mayor of Vancouver is warning unless the provincial government steps in, the city could end up bankrupt. And because municipalities aren’t allowed to run deficits, Kennedy Stewart says severe budget cuts could include layoffs to police officers and firefighters.
> 
> More at link,
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/vancouver-mayor-angers-first-responders-with-warning-about-possible-layoffs-1.4894895


----------



## daftandbarmy

We ain't seen nuthin' yet.....

The A-Z of layoffs, compiled by Bloomberg:


It’s an unprecedented time for individuals and businesses as lockdowns around the world have forced companies to scale back or shut down operations and temporarily lay off workers. Meanwhile, some companies are grappling with a surge in demand that was unthinkable just a few months ago. 

BNN Bloomberg has compiled a list of announcements and statements from companies that are laying off, furloughing and hiring employees. Use the table below to view announcements by sector as well as various employment statistics – all of which will be updated daily. 

Airlines/Aviation

•Air Canada first announced it was temporarily laying off over 5,000 employees March 20 followed by a lay off of more than three times that amount just 10 days later for a total of 21,649. The company said April 8 it is was applying for Ottawa’s wage subsidy program in a move that would allow it to “retain or return affected employees to its payroll."
•Aerospace manufacturer Heroux-Devtek Inc. is permanently eliminating 225 jobs, mostly in Quebec, and will close one of its plants in the face of reduced demand for commercial products
•United Airlines Holdings Inc. is looking to severely cut costs as it prepares for lower travel demand. The company will cut 3,500 jobs, or 30 per cent of its workforce, mainly in management and administration by October. It’s also mandating managers and administrative employees take 20 days off without pay between May 16 and September 30, while other workers will transition to a four-day work week.
•Boeing Co. is cutting 10 per cent of its global workforce as it reduces production of its jetliners. The company tells BNN Bloomberg this will include offering a voluntary buyout program in Canada. Boeing, which has more than 2,000 employees across Canada, said on April 29 the majority of identified workforce actions were in Winnipeg, the company’s largest site in the country
•Chorus Aviation Inc. has laid off 3,000 employees  
•Porter Airlines temporarily laid off the “majority” of its 1,500-person workforce after halting all commercial flights. On April 17, the airline said it will make use of the federal wage subsidy to return “hundreds” of staff members to its payroll
•Transat A.T. said March 23 it had temporarily laid off 3,600 people, or 70 per cent of its workforce. The company subsequently let go of more people, bringing the total to 80 per cent of its workforce. On April 17, the company announced plans to use the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy to rehire 4,000 of those workers.
•GE Aviation, a subsidy of General Electric Co., cut about 10 per cent of its U.S. workforce 
•Sunwing Airlines Inc. confirmed staff layoffs after scaling back its operations
•WestJet Airlines Ltd. announced March 24 it was cutting its workforce nearly in half with 6,900 layoffs. The airline said April 8 it will tap the federal wage subsidy program to bring the vast majority of those employees back onto its payroll. On April 16, WestJet confirmed it will layoff 1,700 pilots across all of its banners effective either May 1 or June 1. On April 22, the airline said it would add 3,000 more employees to its inactive workforce in May with its passenger load at less than five per cent of pre-COVID-19 levels 
•WestJet’s discount carrier Swoop said it’s temporarily laid off 269 employees.
•Delta Air Lines Inc. is a standout, telling BNN Bloomberg there have been no layoffs despite reducing spending and a thinned out flight schedule 




https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/covid-19-jobs-tracker-layoffs-furloughs-and-hiring-during-the-pandemic-1.1417086


----------



## MilEME09

What your saying daftandbarmy is that a targeted recruiting campaign targeting laid off airline employees could really fix that pilot, aircrew and ground crew shortage the RCAF is having. Silver lining I guess, assuming we capitalize on it properly. 

Airlines are hit hard, so is hospitality and tourism. In Alberta  an estimated 15-20% of restaurants permanently closed in March, it was estimated another 18% would close in April forever, and 10-15% each month after as this continues. That said call me what you will but in big cities thats a good thing, many markets are over saturated with restaurants, cooks aren't a designated trade so you can hire anyone, but a red seal chef like me is harder to find, and few are willing to pay what we demand for our skills. 

The labor market will be a vastly different land scape once the dust settles. Fewer employers, and a lot less capital flowing for a few years.


----------



## Blackadder1916

kkwd said:
			
		

> This is not as exciting as a conspiracy theory but it is view on the real life effects on people. A local hospital system sent out an email to nurses that they should be looking for another job as they may not be gainfully employed much longer. There were so many affected they couldn't even pay one on one attention to them. The same system says it will no longer pay doctors after May 15th. We personally know a nurse who went from OB to med-surg in the same hospital the day of the lock down. She arrived at her new job and they told her they didn't have any use for her.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2020/05/08/852435761/as-hospitals-lose-revenue-thousands-of-health-care-workers-face-furloughs-layoff?fbclid=IwAR1LesuY-Sn1MCosK-wiTmog9Ttej73tA5pf2ceoMm7BnDyxvC7bQ0X8KC8



Not surprising to me.  But the most telling quotation from the linked article was:

" . . .  Weingarten says this crisis is an opportunity to rethink how the American hospital system is funded.

"This particular issue about what do we do in terms of funding our hospitals is not an issue in Canada. It's not an issue in Great Britain," she says. "It's not an issue where there are better funding systems." . . ."

Will there be financial repercussions to Canadian health care that will affect service?  Definitely, but unlikely to the extent that is starting to be seen in the USA.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> We ain't seen nuthin' yet.....



How many lives did we actually save, no one knows, but what is guaranteed is a recession and millions out of work for years to come as companies realise they don't need all those extra workers. Maybe that farmer might find some white Canadians to pick his berries after all. 



			
				MilEME09 said:
			
		

> What your saying daftandbarmy is that a targeted recruiting campaign targeting laid off airline employees could really fix that pilot, aircrew and ground crew shortage the RCAF is having. Silver lining I guess, assuming we capitalize on it properly.



I really hope they don't bring back every crap pump that left for the real world, a thorough job of screening returning members will be needed. It's like handing out contracts to absolutely everyone after their IE5. How many negative PERs, PDRs and memos from their supervisor up the chain does it take. You get a contract, you get a contract!  :facepalm:


----------



## Baz

Quirky said:
			
		

> How many lives did we actually save, no one knows, but what is guaranteed is a recession and millions out of work for years to come as companies realise they don't need all those extra workers. Maybe that farmer might find some white Canadians to pick his berries after all.



What economic indicators make it guaranteed?  Why is it not possible that the recovery doesn't cause an economic upswing, like the '20s or '50s? Are the companies identifying activities that can permanently be not done, or just haven't been doing ones that can be deferred?  Is there a chance that there will be more work than workers as we catch up? Will the march of blue collar to China be reversed, or accelerated, due to the realization of supply chain dependence? If we had allowed the virus first wave to "come ashore" with mitigation, would the hospitals have overloaded causing larger economic disruptions?

Sounds like some good essay topics for first year economics.


----------



## MilEME09

Baz said:
			
		

> Will the march of blue collar to China be reversed, or accelerated, due to the realization of supply chain dependence?



A few pages back I posted an article stating a large percentage of American and some European manufacturers have, or are pulling out of China from a combination of political climate, tariffs, among other factors. It is going to cost us more to manufacture in new places, especially at home but shorter supply chains, and more self reliance is a good thing, especially critical fields like medicine.


----------



## mariomike

Baz said:
			
		

> Why is it not possible that the recovery doesn't cause an economic upswing, like the '20s or '50s?



I'm no economist, and I certainly do not have a crystal ball. But, speaking of what I have read of local history, the city flourished in the 1920's. The invention of radio, the discovery of insulin at the U of T, study of building a subway, rising skyscrapers...


----------



## Brad Sallows

Fewer employers and less capital flowing (which also means fewer employers) means more potential employees competing for fewer jobs.  If that happens, I expect to see compensation move down.


----------



## ModlrMike

Personally, I think there may be an expectation that we would repatriate a lot of jobs and industry that is now performed offshore. Companies and governments that fail to recognize that might be punished severely. Millions of out-of-work voters is a powerful lobby.


----------



## MilEME09

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Fewer employers and less capital flowing (which also means fewer employers) means more potential employees competing for fewer jobs.  If that happens, I expect to see compensation move down.



Also means we might see a shift in the labor market. 2.5+ million unemployed, we are bringing in foreign workers to help agriculture. I am sure if the government set up the right program and incentives we could get Canadians working the fields instead. Tax break for farm workers for example.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Ralph said:
			
		

> I guess that depends; is your family motto "Eff you, I'm okay"?



That seems like an unnecessarily aggressive and angry response.

The point is, our government already runs massive deficits saddling our children and grandchildren with the consequences of that debt. There is only so much money to go around, and at a certain point increasing taxes to service the debt will further impact productivity and thus further reduces tax income. At a certain point, all the money goes to debt reduction and then none of the desired services can be paid for. If the government goes bankrupt then nobody gets anything.

So it's not a matter of being caring or a "soulless #$%!", there is only so much money to go around. So it isn't as easy as saying "if you don't hate human beings and want people to die, you'll agree to more taxes and government spending on this."

Other things would need to be cut. I would be okay with foreign aid payments being slashed and that money going towards our own homeless for example.


----------



## MilEME09

Investigation finds OHS violations at meat processing facility at center of outbreak 

https://globalnews.ca/news/6927246/cargill-ohs-investigation-workers/?utm_source=GlobalCalgary&utm_medium=Facebook


----------



## quadrapiper

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Also means we might see a shift in the labor market. 2.5+ million unemployed, we are bringing in foreign workers to help agriculture. I am sure if the government set up the right program and incentives we could get Canadians working the fields instead. Tax break for farm workers for example.


There's already comparable fields that seem to do a good job of pulling in Canadian workers; tree planting comes to mind. Would be interesting to see what the differences are between that, and what the farms are offering.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Other things would need to be cut. I would be okay with foreign aid payments being slashed and that money going towards our own homeless for example.



Slashing about 60% of the public service by going fully digital, and ditching the associated overhead like buildings and other infrastructure not needed for the remaining 'work from homers', would save alot of money and be fully within the government's power to do right now.

Just sayin'


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post and an excerpt near the end:



> Quebec’s and Ontario’s Seniors’ Homes, or, Canada’s COVID-19 Kill Zone
> 
> First from an editorial in the _Globe and Mail_...
> 
> Plus from on opinion piece in the _Sun_ papers by Mike Strobel (tweets here):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.O.S. — Save Our Seniors
> 
> KAGAWONG, Ont. — A Canadian personal support worker, godsend to our seniors, makes an average $16.50 an hour.
> 
> A grave digger makes a nickel more, $16.55.
> 
> I kid you not…
> 
> 
> 
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/05/11/quebecs-and-ontarios-seniors-homes-or-canadas-covid-19-kill-zone/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> There's already comparable fields that seem to do a good job of pulling in Canadian workers; tree planting comes to mind. Would be interesting to see what the differences are between that, and what the farms are offering.



Advertising would be a decent starting point. I wouldn't have the first idea of where/how to apply for jobs say, for example, if my children (who are almost old enough but not this summer) wanted to do some seasonal farm work. 

I believe tree farms pay by the tree and young people who are very hard workers and in good physical condition are able to make decent money. Might be an alternative to low hourly wages (paid by the bucket of berries for example).


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Slashing about 60% of the public service by going fully digital, and ditching the associated overhead like buildings and other infrastructure not needed for the remaining 'work from homers', would save alot of money and be fully within the government's power to do right now.
> 
> Just sayin'



Unfortunately things like that lead to things like Phoenix.  That baby cost us a lot and destroyed a few families.  

Working from home would entail some upfront costs as well.  But it was already starting anyways.

I fully expect cuts to the PS in the election cycle following the next.  Class B cuts and hiring freezes.  

Reduction of travel as the Gvt moves to online platforms like Microsoft Teams etc.  

Plenty of things to scale back on.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Advertising would be a decent starting point. I wouldn't have the first idea of where/how to apply for jobs say, for example, if my children (who are almost old enough but not this summer) wanted to do some seasonal farm work.
> 
> I believe tree farms pay by the tree and young people who are very hard workers and in good physical condition are able to make decent money. Might be an alternative to low hourly wages (paid by the bucket of berries for example).



F*** it all... plant some trees 

https://www.summitplanting.com/jobs.html


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:
			
		

> Unfortunately things like that lead to things like Phoenix.  That baby cost us a lot and destroyed a few families.
> 
> Working from home would entail some upfront costs as well.  But it was already starting anyways.
> 
> I fully expect cuts to the PS in the election cycle following the next.  Class B cuts and hiring freezes.
> 
> Reduction of travel as the Gvt moves to online platforms like Microsoft Teams etc.
> 
> Plenty of things to scale back on.



Or maybe upgrade their systems, wasn't it the Military or VA ombudsmen that said their systems still ran on DOS? brings the question of how much efficiency could be gains, and money saved if the governments systems were fully upgraded.


----------



## Blackadder1916

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Advertising would be a decent starting point. I wouldn't have the first idea of where/how to apply for jobs say, for example, if my children (who are almost old enough but not this summer) wanted to do some seasonal farm work.



Government sites.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/agriculture-and-food-jobs-ontario   Apply for agriculture, agri-food and food industry jobs to support the response to the novel coronavirus (COVID-19).

https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/jobs/9297/22409

General job posting sites

https://ca.indeed.com/Farm-jobs-in-Ontario

Agriculture related sites

https://agrirecruiting.com/

http://www.foodwork.ca/jobs


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Or maybe upgrade their systems, wasn't it the Military or VA ombudsmen that said their systems still ran on DOS? brings the question of how much efficiency could be gains, and money saved if the governments systems were fully upgraded.



Departments are definitely not standardized even with themselves.  My department still has no real RM system and is just upgrading to outlook.

Upgrading would be nice but that takes upfront money to save money later. I’m not sure there is a will to do that.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Maybe that farmer might find some white Canadians to pick his berries after all.



This conversation reminds me of something in Time Magazine years ago,



> This week's Time magazine quotes Murphy as saying that foreign farm labor programs are necessary to California because, among other reasons:
> 
> “You have to remember that Americans can’t do that kind of work. It’s too hard. Mexicans are really good at that. They are built low to the ground, you see, so it is easier for them to stoop.”
> https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft058002v2&chunk.id=d0e5343&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e5332&brand=ucpress


----------



## Blackadder1916

When The U.S. Government Tried To Replace Migrant Farmworkers With High Schoolers
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers


----------



## Colin Parkinson

A draft for kids 18 months, by lottery, some go to basic military training, others Civil support. A little bit of forced communal labour will likely cure many young wannabe socialists.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin P said:
			
		

> A draft for kids 18 months, by lottery, some go to basic military training, others Civil support. A little bit of forced communal labour will likely cure many young wannabe socialists.



It sure cured me from ever wanting to do communal labour for low wages in poor conditions


----------



## Brad Sallows

Compulsory service is the last thing needed if unemployment is an issue.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Utilizing local workers, especially high-schoolers/students and having enough of them consistently will never happen. The turnover rate itself would be a nuisance for many employers. Those who grew up on farms, or helped out on large family properties and greenhouses might be worthwhile workers, but otherwise no. The majority won’t stick it out for long. (Anyone who lives in southern Ontario—heart of wine and greenhouse country in these parts—knows how much the migrant workers are needed. Students do it a little here and there, but the numbers continue to drop.

It’s not necessarily the kid’s fault. A large percentage have been raised with a different set of priorities and their perception of “hard work” doesn’t include rigorous manual labour in sometimes physically uncomfortable conditions anymore. (Personally, those who are actually willing to be/interested in military, for example, and our recruiting numbers speak for themselves. Obviously a weighty example, but the point is that few want gritty, physically strenuous, possibly uncomfortable work. Then throw in what their expectations are in terms of what they feel adequate compensation is.)

Don’t get me wrong—Many are still capable of working very hard. But that more often than not translates to grades, desk/computer jobs and organized sports. It will take years and years to alter the mindset we’ve instilled in western society wrt manual labour. We more or less screwed the pooch with putting unbalanced emphasis on obtaining university degrees and white-collar jobs from basically the 70s to the 00s.

Things have turned around a little in the last 20 yrs or so, as society has realized the trades are extremely important (plumbers and elevator repairmen can rake in a pretty comfortable salary), especially since several ran into issues with not having enough personnel being interested in what is considered blue-collar work. 

Like always, we managed to swing the pendulum too far in one direction in order to make up for where some felt our shortcomings were due to previous generations. It’ll take a while for it to centre again. In this instance, I personally don’t think it ever will...unless, of course, some sort of more dire scenario occurs forcing people to adopt a different lifestyle requiring hard, physical labour on a regular basis, and for a prolonged period of time. (Cue some really great movies.)


----------



## blacktriangle

I can't speak to agriculture, but if we as a nation decide to start doing more domestic manufacturing, there will be lots of need for "skilled" workers. 

Electricians to wire robotics, technicians to program PLCs/HMI etc, manufacturing engineers, and many others...

In some ways, this is good news. These careers require a mix of skilled/educated workers and that's never bad for society. At the same time, it won't be a silver bullet for employment as required workers are fewer, and the required skills generally higher. We can barely produce the skilled workers we need now (as others have previously stated). Many seem to think that you can take a person with zero skills, and they will magically start producing anything and everything (and all making 40 bucks an hour to do it!) - it simply doesn't work that way. 

That, and I think there's a fair number of people in society who are content to collect a mediocre cheque from the government to do nothing, as long as they can blog, drink beer, watch sports etc. I have a feeling universal basic income will be something future generations demand.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin P said:
			
		

> A draft for kids 18 months, by lottery, some go to basic military training, others Civil support. A little bit of forced communal labour will likely cure many young wannabe socialists.



Our cdu staff would be overwhelmed.


----------



## Ralph

Colin P said:
			
		

> A draft for kids 18 months, by lottery, some go to basic military training, others Civil support. A little bit of forced communal labour will likely cure many young wannabe socialists.


Did the Zombies of the Forties really work out that well?


----------



## mariomike

Ralph said:
			
		

> Did the Zombies of the Forties really work out that well?



Of course volunteers are preferable. But, sometimes draftees are necessary to fill the ranks.

The military is the only employer, that I am aware of, that can draft civilians. America continued it until 1973.

Sometimes, "Quantity has a quality all it's own."  

Some draftees, like Sgt. York, work out pretty well. 

I have also read that, coming out of the starvation of the 1930's Depression, many newly enlisted members of the military said they "never had it so good." 

just the "threat" of a draft can encourage some civilians to "volunteer" for military units they might find preferable to units they may be conscripted into. I've read many accounts of these so-called "handcuff volunteers" who if forced to join, wanted to go in under their terms.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Pandemic Has Exposed the Fallacy of the “Ideal Worker”

With most of us working from home these days, Americans’ workday has increased by 40% – roughly 3 hours a day – the largest increase in the world. Yes, I fact-checked that. I couldn’t believe it either. The problem with all this busyness and productivity is that it comes at a huge price. Many employees are now doing the work of three or more people. They’re doing their own jobs, their childcare worker’s jobs, and their children’s teacher’s jobs. Yet, many employers seem oblivious. I hear reports of companies cheerfully assuring their employees, and themselves, that everyone is working at, or close to, 100%. Why don’t more managers see the problem here?

It’s because there’s still a widespread reverence for the “ideal worker.” We commonly define the ideal worker as someone who starts working in early adulthood and continues, full-time and full force, for 40 years straight. The concept reflects a breadwinner-homemaker model that dates back to the Industrial Revolution and functioned fairly well through the 1960s, until women began entering the formal workforce in greater numbers. But the “ideal worker” norm has long exacted a higher toll from women—who not only did their day jobs but were also expected to deal with responsibilities for their families and households.

It’s not just women who suffer under the burden of the “ideal worker” norm. According to a recent survey, 14% of women are considering quitting their jobs due to work-family conflict related to COVID 19. Perhaps more surprising, so are 11% of men. My organization runs a hotline for workers who encounter discrimination based on family care responsibilities, and we hear all the time from men whose organizations have outdated leave policies that give the “primary caregiver” months off but give far less time off to the “secondary caregiver.” We’re all seeing how the pandemic can serve to level the playing field as some men take on more domestic responsibilities than they used to. This is not to deny that women are doing more; the point is that very often neither men nor women are the ideal workers of times past. Today, a key divide is between parents and non-parents. “I’ve noticed that there is a huge split among my trial lawyer colleagues. Those without children are, for the most part, getting a lot done. Those of us with kids at home are litigating as if sinking in quicksand,” said Gordon Knapp, a lawyer in San Francisco.

https://hbr.org/2020/05/the-pandemic-has-exposed-the-fallacy-of-the-ideal-worker?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=dailyalert_activesubs&utm_content=signinnudge&referral=00563&deliveryName=DM79897


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

More and more studies are starting to emerge suggesting that the cure is proving (or will prove) worse than the disease:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marlamilling/2020/05/09/a-projected-75000-deaths-of-despair-could-result-from-coronavirus-pandemic-impact/#1cdaedc06472


----------



## Quirky

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> More and more studies are starting to emerge suggesting that the cure is proving (or will prove) worse than the disease:
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/marlamilling/2020/05/09/a-projected-75000-deaths-of-despair-could-result-from-coronavirus-pandemic-impact/#1cdaedc06472



But think of the elderly!

Hopefully people are scared enough of hospitals where non-covid related visits to the ER continue to decrease, and people use it as intended - Emergencies. Nothing like a packed Emergency Room full of people playing on their phones, go home and call your doctor or visit a walk-in clinic.


----------



## Infanteer

Quirky said:
			
		

> Hopefully people are scared enough of hospitals where non-covid related visits to the ER continue to decrease, and people use it as intended - Emergencies. Nothing like a packed Emergency Room full of people playing on their phones, go home and call your doctor or visit a walk-in clinic.



It would be ironic if this pandemic sorted out what is clearly one of the biggest drains on our public health care system by keeping non-emerg cases out of the ER....


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Quirky said:
			
		

> But think of the elderly!



I know you're being facetious, but for those who would seriously make that comment ... the elderly are going to suffer worse than anyone from the economic troubles that are coming, since their RRSP/stock investments have been destroyed, and their pension/CPP will very quickly not go as far as it used to. And the younger generation will be fighting to keep themselves alive and unable to help as much as before. So ironically they have destroyed the economy to save the elderly and in my opinion will end up killing more elderly than would have died from COVID-19 due to the economic impacts of the shutdown.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Quirky said:
			
		

> Hopefully people are scared enough of hospitals where non-covid related visits to the ER continue to decrease, and people use it as intended - Emergencies. Nothing like a packed Emergency Room full of people playing on their phones, go home and call your doctor or visit a walk-in clinic.



Except for the cases of those who don’t have their own GP and/or have been told by the walk-in clinic they visited to go to the hospital. Clinics often refer patients straight to ER for further examination and/or tests/scans if there’s been an on-going issue. Many sitting in an ER have been having symptoms of whatever for a period of time.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Hopefully people are scared enough of hospitals where non-covid related visits to the ER continue to decrease, and people use it as intended - Emergencies.



It's a whole new ballgame, and from what I have been hearing from friends still in the game, "Nothing is an emergency anymore."

Their own health - and that of their families - is their #1 priority.


----------



## ModlrMike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Except for the cases of those who don’t have their own GP and/or have been told by the walk-in clinic they visited to go to the hospital. Clinics often refer patients straight to ER for further examination and/or tests/scans if there’s been an on-going issue. Many sitting in an ER have been having symptoms of whatever for a period of time.



This, right here is the biggest issue I have in my job. The role of the ER or Urgent Care is to fix a problem right here, right now. If your issue doesn't meet that criteria, then ER/UC is not the place. The department is not equipped to sort out chronic problems. If one has a chronic problem, unless it's become suddenly unstable, there's time to arrange further investigations on an out-patient basis, which doesn't include sending folks to the ER/UC. [/soapbox]


----------



## BeyondTheNow

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> This, right here is the biggest issue I have in my job. The role of the ER or Urgent Care is to fix a problem right here, right now. If your issue doesn't meet that criteria, then ER/UC is not the place. The department is not equipped to sort out chronic problems. If one has a chronic problem, unless it's become suddenly unstable, there's time to arrange further investigations on an out-patient basis, which doesn't include sending folks to the ER/UC. [/soapbox]



I’d have to agree and can understand relevant frustrations. I can’t really comment further though, as I’m not a healthcare worker/provider, and no longer work in any capacity in its environment. I only have a few friends who are RNs in different locations, one’s a GP and that’s it.

I also don’t really know how things are in other provinces. I’m speaking strictly from the standpoint of an Ontarian and what routinely takes place here. I’d assume that more northern parts of the province aren’t as bad where the population is smaller. But in larger cities, yes, there’s certainly an issue. I think the shortage of medical personnel of all types (Drs, various techs, RNs, etc.) is the culprit and I don’t see that changing here any time soon. Especially with continued cuts. But that’s another issue for a different thread and I’m derailing...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It would be ironic if this pandemic sorted out what is clearly one of the biggest drains on our public health care system by keeping non-emerg cases out of the ER....



Sadly, one of the big issues is that emergency cases are staying away from the ER too:

https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/Doctor-warns-against-delaying-emergency-room-trip-due-to-COVID-19-569611741.html


----------



## BeyondTheNow

London is a beautiful city; I know some parts of it really well. ‘Thought the video and comments were a really nice tribute and message.  _“... There are several poignant moments certain to draw emotion...”_


Powerful video of London, Ont. during pandemic captured by NYC filmmaker



> LONDON, ONT -- The first question you might ask, is ‘How’d he do it?’
> 
> With border restrictions in place, the release of a video capturing an empty London, Ont. during the pandemic - by a man from New York City - might seem alarming.
> But don’t worry says JJ Sereday, the filmmaker behind the six-minute video of the Forest City.
> 
> He is now back in the U.S.
> 
> Sereday had travelled to London in early March, before COVID-19 restrictions were in place, to visit with his girlfriend, Joanna Stepien, a nurse at London Health Sciences Centre's Victoria Campus.
> 
> “Once I got to London, for two weeks straight, I quarantined,” he told CTV News in a Skype interview from his home in the NYC borough of Brooklyn.
> 
> As he was in isolated, the global situation unfolded around him, and seeing London empty he decided to put his cameras - normally used for his business - to use once his self-isolation ended.
> 
> “Just seeing the eeriness and the emptiness, it was really unique. I felt strongly that I needed to capture and document that. It’s was very moving with Joanna being a front-line worker."
> 
> The result is 'Alone Together,' which shows an empty London from various locations, heights and angles. It’s mixed with music and memorable audio clips from Canada’s leaders.
> 
> It was produced by Sereday and Stepien to be a tribute to London’s front-line workers and includes a cameo by Sepien herself.
> 
> The video highlights several area of the city including downtown, Wortley Village, Old East Village and London’s hospital sites.
> 
> Sereday says he’s been to London a half-dozen times, but still needed to rely heavily on Stepien to pick locations important to Londoners.
> 
> There are several poignant moments certain to draw emotion.
> 
> Near the beginning, Budweiser Gardens is shown, from above, with an overlay of audio from a Memorial Cup run playing as the area around the arena sits empty.
> 
> Later, the Flame of Hope at the Banting House National Historical Site is shown. Originally intended to just be one of the key locations used, Sereday says it quickly become so much more.
> 
> “That fell into my lap so perfectly, because not just of how important it is to show hope in this dark time, but the fact it was such a crucial thing that was discovered there and the importance of it connecting with COVID-19.”
> 
> Sereday says the use of audio clips from various Canadian leaders helped set the story in place. He also says he included them because, he believes, they are inspiring. Something he’s not sure those in the U.S. are getting...



Full article:

https://london.ctvnews.ca/mobile/powerful-video-of-london-ont-during-pandemic-captured-by-nyc-filmmaker-1.4935402


----------



## tomahawk6

Canada's top Doc urges caution where the US-Canada border is concerned. Although tourist season is approaching so open the border carefully.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/canadas-top-doctor-approach-us-border-reopening-with-extreme-caution/ar-BB13Ztie?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## daftandbarmy

Millions with health conditions at risk from Covid-19 'if forced back to work'
About 20% of UK population vulnerable but not included in government’s shielding advice


Eight million people with underlying health conditions should be exempted from plans to get the country back to work and normal life, according to scientists who warn that easing lockdown too quickly could propel the Covid-19 death toll to 73,000 this year.

About 80% of the population have little to fear from a return to work, but 20% are vulnerable from one or more common conditions such as diabetes, obesity and heart problems, say researchers from University College London (UCL) in a Lancet study published on Wednesday.

Most of those are not considered clinically extremely vulnerable by the Department of Health and so instructed to shield entirely for 12 weeks.

NHS England originally said the shielding list included 1.5 million people. On Monday, the government said it numbered 2.5 million across the UK. The list focuses on people whose immune systems are impaired, for instance by chemotherapy or taking anti-rejection drugs after organ transplantation.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/12/millions-with-health-conditions-at-risk-from-covid-19-if-forced-back-to-work


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *High SARS-CoV-2 Attack Rate Following Exposure at a Choir Practice — Skagit County, Washington, March 2020*
> 
> _Early Release / May 12, 2020 / 69_
> 
> *Summary
> 
> What is already known about this topic?*
> 
> Superspreading events involving SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, have been reported.
> 
> *What is added by this report?*
> 
> Following a 2.5-hour choir practice attended by 61 persons, including a symptomatic index patient, 32 confirmed and 20 probable secondary COVID-19 cases occurred (attack rate = 53.3% to 86.7%); three patients were hospitalized, and two died. Transmission was likely facilitated by close proximity (within 6 feet) during practice and augmented by the act of singing.
> 
> *What are the implications for public health practice?*
> 
> The potential for superspreader events underscores the importance of physical distancing, including avoiding gathering in large groups, to control spread of COVID-19. Enhancing community awareness can encourage symptomatic persons and contacts of ill persons to isolate or self-quarantine to prevent ongoing transmission.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6919e6.htm


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Millions with health conditions at risk from Covid-19 'if forced back to work'



If that is the case, I would not be surprised if HR units are bracing themselves for a potential increase in Modified Duty and Long Term Disability ( LTD ) claims.



> Canada
> 
> Long-term disability claims likely to rise due to COVID-19
> https://www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/18746/long-term-disability-claims-likely-to-rise-due-to-covid-19



Covid-19 and Long Term Disability ( LTD )
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22long+term+disability%22+covid&sxsrf=ALeKk01ai3GC5PsXpYmDZ3iDI0cruLZoMg:1589376733557&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:y&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcmPjc-bDpAhUTAp0JHagrC68QpwV6BAgLEB4&biw=1280&bih=641#spf=1589376742769


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> If that is the case, I would not be surprised if HR units are bracing themselves for a potential increase in Modified Duty and Long Term Disability ( LTD ) claims.



I know of a couple people both in and out of the military actively looking for ways to use this pandemic not to go back to work. Pretty sleazy.

Hopefully people who actually need modified duties or LTD don't get boned.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know of a couple people both in and out of the military actively looking for ways to use this pandemic not to go back to work. Pretty sleazy.
> 
> Hopefully people who actually need modified duties or LTD don't get boned.



Now that WSIB has presumptive legislation for PTSD, I can imagine that may also come into play.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know of a couple people both in and out of the military actively looking for ways to use this pandemic not to go back to work. Pretty sleazy.
> 
> Hopefully people who actually need modified duties or LTD don't get boned.



I’m sure there are some.  We are all working from home right now.  Ironically we were just starting to pilot working from home.  Our group was going to be the test case for our department.  But a lot of people getting a taste for it don’t like it.   But we may no longer have a choice.  It may become a normal thing for some sections that working from home will be the new norm.  Choice or no choice.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Posthaste: Glimpse into our post-COVID future — Tech Cold War, end of the office and revival of the Western worker

We are not there yet, but it’s fascinating to think about our life post-COVID. 

It’s almost a cliche to say it these days, but our way of life has been altered and will be modified further as the virus continues to alter our hard-coded habits. Deutsche Bank economists have attempted to peer into the future to see what our world could look like once the virus recedes. Here are the five ways the world could change:

1 Tech Cold War: Our digital devices have already been our lifeline during the crisis, but as we increasingly depend on technology to conduct our personal and professional lives, the geopolitical battle lines are being drawn.

China and the United States will increasingly separate their technology infrastructure, leading to a world of two digital halves. An example would be two separate 6G network systems pushed by both Beijing and Washington, with many countries in the middle asked to pick a side.

“The Tech Wall’s cost to the US$5 Trillion ICT sector could amount to a yearly demand destruction of around two per cent and another two-to-three per cent increase in costs (capex, labour),” Deutsche Bank economists said. “At around US$250 billion per year and increasing, this geo-political cost on the ICT sector and global growth would start to feel incredibly painful as time progresses.”

2 Deglobalization: Along the same lines, there will be an impact on global value chains that we had taken for granted. Recent trends accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic could force nations and corporations to reduce their reliance on international supply chains.

“An unwinding of global value chains should strengthen the position of workers in Western economies,” Deutsche Bank noted. “If Western workers have been the main victim of globalization, they stand to benefit from deglobalization. But this structural effect will take decades, not years to feed through. It is unlikely to play any immediate role in driving up wages during the deepest labour market shock since the Great Depression.”

3 A debt redemption fund: Many companies and workers are currently being supported by their governments, but at some point the trillions of dollars of stimulus will have to be paid off.

Private and public debt in G7 countries has already increased from around 130 per cent of GDP over the past 50 years to 270 per cent in 2019. It will likely hit 300 per cent this year – a record high.

Deutsche Bank is floating the idea of a ‘COVID-19 debt redemption fund, especially for indebted European Union countries.

4 Return of stock picking?:  Stockmarkets have rallied after the initial plunge, but is it smooth sailing ahead?

“While it is hard to predict whether stockmarkets will experience a second corona-crash or simply rise steadily in anticipation of a recovery, there is one phenomenon that could be a double-edged sword. It concerns the strange way in which investors have been paying the same price for different companies.”

Deutsche predicts second quarter results will allow investors to differentiate between the companies, which would benefit active investment managers, and lead to a return of the art of stock-picking.

“So active managers rejoice… So it may not matter whether the overall level of the equity market rises or falls from here. Rather, a focus on intrinsic value could well be the new theme for 2020. Those investors ambivalent to stock selection are the ones who should watch out,” the German bank noted.

5 Working from home: The mass working-from-home experiment catalyzed by COVID-19 means many employees must ready themselves for at least a semi-permanent change in the foreseeable future.

Apart from spending more time with our families, it could also have real economic benefits. This includes affordable housing, as people move to rural locations, boosting home prices in different regions and their economies.

With companies saving on office rents and utilities, “might it then make sense for employers to raise salaries for staff who work from home?,” Deutsche economists ask cheekily.





https://business.financialpost.com/executive/posthaste-glimpse-into-our-post-covid-future-tech-cold-war-return-of-stock-picking-and-revival-of-the-western-worker


----------



## Brad Sallows

I've been working from home 95+% of the time for over three years.

I save 2 hours of time not commuting each day, my lunches are healthier, I drink my preferred coffee, and my frequency of routine illnesses (eg. cold/flu) is way down because I'm not mixing with people in transit or at work who are compelled to show up when sick.  The company saves the cost of real estate for the cubicle I don't occupy and the cost of the sick time I don't use.  If I have to attend a long meeting where my actual participation or interest occupies only a small fraction of the time, I can do useful work without distracting others.

Some people might feel they are owed part of those cost reductions; I figure my time and my health have value to me, so I don't share that opinion.

Since the company's aim is to make the work force "mobile" rather than "at home", I can work at different locations.  Teams function smoothly regardless of geographic dispersion, and the company's operational and administrative functions are more fault- and disaster-tolerant.  The company provides the tools: no nonsense about installing "necessary" applications on my personal equipment.  Teams have the freedom to choose when and where to have in-office meetings and sessions (the other 5%).

Dispersing the working population obviously would have immense benefits.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I've been working from home 95+% of the time for over three years.
> 
> I save 2 hours of time not commuting each day, my lunches are healthier, I drink my preferred coffee, and my frequency of routine illnesses (eg. cold/flu) is way down because I'm not mixing with people in transit or at work who are compelled to show up when sick.  The company saves the cost of real estate for the cubicle I don't occupy and the cost of the sick time I don't use.  If I have to attend a long meeting where my actual participation or interest occupies only a small fraction of the time, I can do useful work without distracting others.
> 
> Some people might feel they are owed part of those cost reductions; I figure my time and my health have value to me, so I don't share that opinion.
> 
> Since the company's aim is to make the work force "mobile" rather than "at home", I can work at different locations.  Teams function smoothly regardless of geographic dispersion, and the company's operational and administrative functions are more fault- and disaster-tolerant.  The company provides the tools: no nonsense about installing "necessary" applications on my personal equipment.  Teams have the freedom to choose when and where to have in-office meetings and sessions (the other 5%).
> 
> Dispersing the working population obviously would have immense benefits.



It sounds like your organization has already figured it out! Sadly, others will collapse, unable to adapt because: Darwin.


----------



## dapaterson

Two recent PDF documents, two different stories: One signed electronically, fully machine readable, and usable.  The second a scan of a document that waited for the stars to align to get an ink signature, but the scan is as an image, so can't be searched, copied, or quoted.

There still be dinosaurs roaming the earth.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

I truly hope there won’t be many more to follow country-wide, as RNs are always needed regardless of the circumstances.

Family devastated as COVID-19 claims its first registered nurse in Canada



> ... Brian Beattie, 57, worked as an RN at Kensington Village, a long-term care facility in London, Ont., where multiple staff have tested positive for COVID-19...



More at link:

 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/registered-nurse-dies-london-covid-19-1.5567862


----------



## Blackadder1916

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Family devastated as COVID-19 claims its first registered nurse in Canada



Yesterday was International Nurses Day (Florence Nightingale's birthday).  And this week is National Nursing Week.

Condolences to the family.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jack M. Mintz: How about some public-sector sacrifice, too?

Issues about fairness in public and private sector compensation will become more contentious as the economy recovers

Canada’s hefty job loss in March and April comes as no surprise. In total, we lost over three million jobs. Another 2.5 million of us are still employed but working fewer hours. Of 20.3 million people employed in February, 28 per cent have lost their jobs or are working fewer hours.
Not since the Great Depression have we seen job losses on this scale. But let’s not confound these two historic economic contractions. Today’s sharp downturn is not a depression unless it lasts more than two years. We all hope that, once the virus is contained, that will not happen.
This recession is also unique in that employment losses are not the same across all industries. The Great Depression resulted from a general demand shock accompanied by monetary and fiscal contraction. This recession involves sector-specific demand- and supply-shocks due to health restrictions and social distancing, offset by impressive injections of fiscal and monetary liquidity.

Employment losses also vary sharply across industries depending on whether employees can continue to work at a site or at home. Almost all of the current job losses (96 per cent) are in the private sector, with hours lost varying from 63.8 per cent in accommodation and food services to just 8.7 per cent in the utility sector.

Public sector workers have been little affected with working hours down only 5.6 per cent since February, less than in any other sector. As they have made clear, Canadians appreciate the efforts of many public employees carrying out essential services such as medical care, policing, firefighting and, yes, even tax collection. Statistics Canada estimates that three-fifths of public employees are able to carry out tasks at home. Some are working reduced hours, if they are working at all, but continue to be paid their full salary by their public employers.

In this recession, the “haves” are those with employment and income security. In the private sector, people are continuing to work if their employers are in essential industries and are making enough income or receiving a large enough federal wage subsidy to keep their employees on the job. Some employers without paying customers have had to let their workers go.

But not in the public sector. Governments not only provide jobs but continue paying the same wages and benefits even in distressed times — or even more: MPs declined to delay their scheduled wage hike in the midst of this job-destroying recession.

They are not crucial now but these issues about fairness in public and private sector compensation will become more contentious as the economy recovers. By this fall governments will be dealing with quite difficult budget planning issues after ramping up deficits and debt that will lead to higher carrying charges and potential credit downgrades in the future. To begin repairing public balance sheets, politicians will be faced with the unenviable choice of raising taxes, constraining spending or simply banking on economic growth to reduce the debt burden over time.

If governments boost taxes, private sector workers and employers already reeling from job losses and liquidity problems will resent having to pay more for high-cost government spending. They will expect governments to achieve cost efficiencies and limit wage gains in the next several years.

And why not? At the end of 2019, the average wage rate in the public sector was $28 per hour, close to $55,000 a year (based on a 37.5-hour work week). This compares to an all-industry average of $21 per hour, or roughly $41,000 per year. Taking into account skill levels and other factors, Fraser Institute studies have estimated that public sector employees earn a wage premium equal to 12 per cent for comparable jobs. Normally, those with job security would be paid less not more than those facing risky outcomes.

Moreover, these estimated wage premiums do not include benefits. Many middle-income private sector workers, having themselves lost money in the stock and bond markets, will also experience poor investment performance in their defined-contribution plans and RRSPs. On the other hand, over four-fifths of public workers have defined-benefit pension plans with benefits effectively guaranteed by governments, i.e., taxpayers. These plans are often very generous. Some have inflation-indexed benefits. With the decline in interest rates and asset values, many public defined-benefit plans will go into deficit, requiring governments to fork over even more money to make them whole, with taxpayers again on the hook.

At close to $300 billion or 30 per cent of total public expenditure in 2020, employee compensation is a major part of delivery costs for federal, provincial and local government programs. To the extent that governments achieve better productivity in the public sector through innovation and better management, program unit costs could decline. Improved productivity could also provide opportunities to recognize hard-working public servants with better compensation or promotions.

Part of the productivity agenda should be to shed ineffective government spending programs and regulations. This would enable governments to focus on what they should do best, thus helping improve Canada’s economic performance.

If governments conclude the only way to deal with deficits is to hike taxes, public sector compensation will become a contentious issue. A straitened private sector will want to know why the public sector hasn’t constrained its payroll costs, too.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/jack-m-mintz-how-about-some-public-sector-sacrifice-too


----------



## Remius

Good points from that article.

My public sector Union has yet to settle our collective agreement with the gvt.  They will be hard pressed to ask for much given the circumstances.  They may have to just take what they ask for.  

I expect a phased approach.  Hiring freezes, travel and hospitality  restrictions.  Work from home initiatives.  Salary freezes.  Then possibly cuts. 

The CAF won’t be immune to this.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Four Strategic Priorities for the Post-COVID-19 World

To build resilience going forward, the first question to answer is not, “What’s in it for me?” but “What if?”

Broadly speaking, strategy after COVID-19 will be less about beating your economic competitors, and more about how businesses can contribute to combating a larger, shared enemy, like climate change, pandemics or perhaps socio-political woes such as inequality. There’s nothing new about this. The US in World War II, for example, saw tremendous cooperative effort between businesses, as well as between the private and public sectors. The COVID-19 “new normal” may actually be a return to an older equilibrium between business and society, and wide stakeholder collaboration.

https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/four-strategic-priorities-for-the-post-covid-19-world-14086


----------



## BDTyre

We received word on Tuesday that training could (or will likely) start up again in June. I don't know if this is a brigade-wide, or unit-wide action but I have been told that the course I was on that was interrupted in March will resume and also that anyone on Class C that wants to remain on Class C will either be on course or on Op (Laser or Lentus).


----------



## MilEME09

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We received word on Tuesday that training could (or will likely) start up again in June. I don't know if this is a brigade-wide, or unit-wide action but I have been told that the course I was on that was interrupted in March will resume and also that anyone on Class C that wants to remain on Class C will either be on course or on Op (Laser or Lentus).



Thats my understanding as well, this gives the reserves a massive opportunity to fire through a lot of courses for people on vehicles, etc....


----------



## Remius

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> We received word on Tuesday that training could (or will likely) start up again in June. I don't know if this is a brigade-wide, or unit-wide action but I have been told that the course I was on that was interrupted in March will resume and also that anyone on Class C that wants to remain on Class C will either be on course or on Op (Laser or Lentus).



All I’ve seen is a staff check in case training resumes.


----------



## dapaterson

Do not confuse "things may resume" with "things will go back to how they were before".

Any restart will be asymmetric, with many new restrictions in place, and in line with medical advice.


----------



## BDTyre

Of course. I fully expect to be wearing masks and gloves in certain scenarios, and observing social distancing in most.  Word from my CoC (who was also my CoC on course) was "course will continue most likely." I definitely won't take that to mean it will, nor will I expect it to resume as per previous training sessions.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Now a spooky side of COVID-19--start of a post:



> Guess Who’s Spying on Canadian COVID-19 Research?
> 
> Further to this post,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dragon vs the Kangaroo and the Beaver
> 
> 
> 
> 
> our two leading intelligence agencies go public together is a rare move. No specific countries raised but _faites vos jeux_ on who beyond the PRC might be cyber and other spying on these matters...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/05/15/guess-whos-spying-on-canadian-covid-19-research/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## blacktriangle

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Now a spooky side of COVID-19--start of a post:
> 
> our two leading intelligence agencies go public together is a rare move. No specific countries raised but _faites vos jeux_ on who beyond the PRC might be cyber and other spying on these matters...
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/05/15/guess-whos-spying-on-canadian-covid-19-research/
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa




I'll just add that there's a fair bit of decent open-source threat intelligence out there, should anyone want to read up on the various threat actors and their capabilities/activities. Crowdstrike, IBM X-Force, AlienVault etc... and so many more. No spookiness required. Google "Advanced Persistent Threat" or "APT" as a start or terms such as "DEEP PANDA", "GOBLIN PANDA" or "FANCY BEAR". These types of groups were active long before COVID-19, and will be active long after.


----------



## Brad Sallows

162 Benefits of Coronavirus.

A list, not an analysis.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *5 Canadian Forces members assisting in long-term care homes diagnosed with COVID-19*
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid19-soldiers-nursing-homes-1.5571607
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/five-members-of-military-catch-covid-19-on-deployment-in-long-term-care-homes-1.4941368
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6948897/canadian-forces-coronavirus-longterm-care/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Birds are telling me there's talk of lawsuits and jags getting brought in. Military being blamed for bringing covid into homes?


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Birds are telling me there's talk of lawsuits and jags getting brought in. Military being blamed for bringing covid into homes?



Was on the news today.  Apparently some members may have it as well.

This won’t end well.


----------



## mariomike

NYC will spend $55 million to buy 74,000 air conditioners for low-income seniors, including 22,000 for public housing residents. Why? The NYC beaches, pools and cooling centers will be closed.
A hot summer with nothing to do and nowhere to go will be a nightmare.
http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-beaches-pools-closed-pandemic-summer-plan-20200515-vsivafjrlbgphar3ckvnhrkxta-story.html


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:
			
		

> NYC will spend $55 million to buy 74,000 air conditioners for low-income seniors, including 22,000 for public housing residents. Why? The NYC beaches, pools and cooling centers will be closed.
> A hot summer with nothing to do and nowhere to go will be a nightmare.
> http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-coronavirus-beaches-pools-closed-pandemic-summer-plan-20200515-vsivafjrlbgphar3ckvnhrkxta-story.html



Wow.  There is something to consider.  I hadn’t even thought of that.  I wonder if deaths caused by heat are being counted by the economists death predictions of the lockdowns.


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> 162 Benefits of Coronavirus.
> 
> A list, not an analysis.



So many benefits (?)  I'm sure the victims, particularly those in LTC facilities, will rest easier knowing they were unwitting conscripted warriors in the achievements.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> Wow.  There is something to consider.  I hadn’t even thought of that.  I wonder if deaths caused by heat are being counted by the economists death predictions of the lockdowns.



Could be a hot time in the old town this summer.

Read this about reporting the deaths.

Mortality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_wave#Mortality


----------



## Kilted

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Birds are telling me there's talk of lawsuits and jags getting brought in. Military being blamed for bringing covid into homes?



I was under the impression that we were only responding where there already was outbreaks.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Kilted said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that we were only responding where there already was outbreaks.



That struck me as odd too. And even if that’s not the case, I can’t imagine that any CoC would be sending the same troops from an infected area (even with necessary measures being taken) into a non-infected area. From what I’ve heard from pers in varying locations, including a few who are helping out in the LTC facilities both in ON and QC, the military has been extremely diligent with following necessary safety protocols to prevent such scenarios.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Kilted said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that we were only responding where there already was outbreaks.



Me too. 

I'm guessing the owners of these facilities are like drowning rats right now and looking for anyone to blame for their negligence.


----------



## Kat Stevens

No good deed goes unpunished.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Birds are telling me there's talk of lawsuits and jags getting brought in. Military being blamed for bringing covid into homes?



People can sue for anything. Getting paid is another matter. People are looking for a payout and know the government has deep pockets.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> People can sue for anything. Getting paid is another matter. People are looking for a payout and know the government has deep pockets.



We're not famous for taking care of our own people. Let's see outsiders get anything  ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Birds are telling me there's talk of lawsuits and jags getting brought in. Military being blamed for bringing covid into homes?



Who are these birds?  It's a good tale but before we go down the garden path and launch into a chorus of Militär über alles perhaps a reminder. 


As per https://army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-81391.html#msg81391


> Due to the anonymous nature of these forums, it can be hard to tell if information is coming from someone in a position to know or just someone who "has a friend whose uncle served with the Botswana Defence Force in the 70's."
> 
> So our request is this: Please qualify unconfirmed information posted here.
> 
> That is, if you didn't witness it first hand or read it in the CFAO's, state that it's an opinion, rumour or best guess. We won't think any less of you for not "knowing" the information. In fact, we'll all appreciate the honesty, and it'll likely save readers heartache later on, when they find out (the hard way) that it wasn't exactly bang on. If you do know the source, please reference it with a link or include the related information in your post.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Who are these birds?  It's a good tale but before we go down the garden path and launch into a chorus of Militär über alles perhaps a reminder.



Great point, thanks for the reminder. Just some rumor birds.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>So many benefits (?)  I'm sure the victims, particularly those in LTC facilities, will rest easier knowing they were unwitting conscripted warriors in the achievements.

Did you bother to read it?  The author doesn't suggest conscripting victims, or even that victims should be discounted.  

"This post lists many benefits that could arise, so readers can consider how to maximize them, not just minimize harms."

This is the proper way to "use a crisis": not to enact a political agenda, but to learn and improve for the next one.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

> TORONTO -- The first Canadian clinical trial for a potential COVID-19 vaccination has been approved by Health Canada.. “If these vaccine trials are successful we could produce and distribute it here at home,” Trudeau said during his daily press briefing outside his home in Ottawa...



More at link:

 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/health-canada-approves-first-clinical-trial-for-potential-covid-19-vaccine-1.4942507


----------



## tomahawk6

If it works then Canada could be responsible for saving millions of people !!


----------



## dimsum

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If it works then Canada could be responsible for saving millions of people !!



Again.  It's been almost 100 years since the discovery of insulin.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *New COVID-19 cases in New York coming from people leaving home, Cuomo says*
> 
> New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said on Saturday the state’s new confirmed COVID-19 cases are predominantly coming from people who left their homes to shop, exercise or socialize, rather than from essential workers.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-ny-idUSKBN22S0S8





> *Texas COVID-19 cases rise, governor's office says more testing being done*
> 
> Texas has seen a steady rise in novel coronavirus cases and fatalities since reopening just over two weeks ago.
> 
> While the cases are still well below New York, the state with the most confirmed cases at more than 345,000, the steady increase shows that the curve has not yet flattened in Texas.
> 
> The state also experienced its highest and second-highest daily death toll just a day apart.
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-cases-covid-19-increasing-thousands-reopening/story?id=70720497


----------



## MilEME09

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If it works then Canada could be responsible for saving millions of people !!



The key will be if successful, how quickly we can ramp up production for domestic and international supply chains. While the focus should be on the health of our people and producing enough for domestic need, we must help our allies, eventually shifting to helping developing nations only after we have things under control here.


----------



## mariomike

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If it works then Canada could be responsible for saving millions of people !!





> NBC
> 
> Wave of 'vaccine nationalism' hinders global efforts to halt coronavirus
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/wave-vaccine-nationalism-hinders-global-efforts-halt-coronavirus-n1207846
> 
> Analysis: "If your country develops the vaccine before anyone else, immediately exporting it to another country is not a vote-winner," one expert said.


----------



## Blackadder1916

This article is from a couple of weeks ago.

Here are the potential vaccines for COVID-19 being tested in humans
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/here-are-the-potential-vaccines-for-covid-19-being-tested-in-humans-1.4917963


> Alexandra Mae Jones  Published Wednesday, April 29, 2020 7:23PM EDT  Last Updated Friday, May 1, 2020 3:26PM ED
> 
> TORONTO -- With the death toll from COVID-19 climbing ever higher worldwide, one question looms large in the mind: when could there be a vaccine to challenge this pandemic?
> 
> Scientists are working around the clock to find that solution, with numerous vaccine trials already underway in multiple countries.
> 
> At the start of April, over 60 potential vaccines were in preclinical evaluation, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).
> 
> In order for a vaccine to be approved for rollout to the general population, it needs to pass preclinical testing in animals, and three phases of clinical trial evaluations in humans. This process takes around 12-18 months, experts say — and that’s moving fast.
> 
> Here are the potential vaccines that have moved on to clinical trials with human subjects, and how far along they are in the process towards official approval for production.
> 
> . . .



As this article pre-dated the announcement that a Canadian developed vaccine has been approved for clinical trials. it is not included in this list.  So maybe those inclined to pat themselves on the back and start counting the benefits financial and strategic should pause a moment and wait to see if a Canadian vaccine is successful.  Besides, it's so un-stereotypically Canadian to toot our own horn.


----------



## Kat Stevens

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> The key will be if successful, how quickly we can ramp up production for domestic and international supply chains. While the focus should be on the health of our people and producing enough for domestic need, we must help our allies, eventually shifting to helping developing nations only after we have things under control here.



We can outsource production to China for a fraction of the cost! Err, wait...


----------



## tomahawk6

Target Up said:
			
		

> We can outsource production to China for a fraction of the cost! Err, wait...



The Chinese may well try to steal the recipe before production can start.


----------



## FJAG

Fairly good McLean`s article:



> Footprints of the coronavirus: How it came to Canada and went around the world
> Terry Glavin: Genome samples reveal the pathogen’s deadly journey, and unlike the leaders of certain global superpowers, the science doesn’t lie.
> 
> By Terry Glavin
> May 7, 2020
> 
> The creature that singles out the old and the infirm and sickens and kills people with the disease COVID-19 is a species of the genus betacoronavirus, an ancient thing descended from a distant ancestor that emerged roughly 10,000 years ago in the realm of Riboviria, in the order Nidovirales.
> 
> It comes from the family of the Coronaviridae, and the subfamily Orthocoronavirinae, and it is important to understand something of the science involved in its taxonomy to fully appreciate the reasons why most of the world’s advanced economies ended up in a state of suspended animation, and why roughly half the world’s people, or 3.9 billion of us, by April, were still following instructions to more or less hide from the beast and wait for some kind of all-clear signal.
> 
> Ever since Jan. 5, when a “wet market” in the metropolis of Wuhan in central China was implicated in the World Health Organization’s first bulletin reporting a “pneumonia of unknown etiology” in that city, it’s always the same. In every guidance from the WHO and every declaration from the People’s Republic of China, in all the strange prescriptions from Donald Trump’s White House and in each of the earnest rationales issued by Justin Trudeau’s government in Ottawa, we are always exhorted to heed “the science.”
> 
> But the science tells its own story. It tracks the creature’s genetic footprints across the face of the earth, and its arrival and diffusion in Canada, without the aid of a teleprompter or speaking notes. The story offers no heroic role to Health Minister Patty Hajdu, and it is of no particular use to the Trudeau government’s justifications for waiting until March 18 before shuttering the international arrivals sections at most of Canada’s airports. Neither does it offer any special comfort to those among Ottawa’s critics who wanted all direct flights from China shut down weeks before that.
> 
> ...



Read rest here: https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/footprints-of-the-coronavirus-how-it-came-to-canada-and-went-around-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR2G3O15Ho0opG3i08HzJ9Q-2yNWTqb9t4i3cl5S3uCuU_svi1hPsHyY5yA

 :cheers:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Until the good people of China rise up and overthrow the CCP we need to have no kind of dealings with them.....now my limited amount of world politics knowledge isn't sure we can, but that doesn't change what I think we need to do.


----------



## MilEME09

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The Chinese may well try to steal the recipe before production can start.



I'd put money on that, best way I can describe China right now is a extreme savior complex. They want to save the world so badly that they intentionally mislead the world about Covid 19, so that they can come to our rescue, provide PPE, vaccine, etc....


----------



## Jarnhamar

It's unbelievable how much we depend on China for materialistic shit. Can you imagine the break down in our society if North Americans weren't able to upgrade to the latest Iphone every 12 months?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's unbelievable how much we depend on China for materialistic crap. Can you imagine the break down in our society if North Americans weren't able to upgrade to the latest Iphone every 12 months?



This is the great shill of our warped version of capitalism though, addict the public to cheap superfluous and superficial items, keep them and concerned over the nonsensical, and as long the public are brainwashed into uncontrolled and unnecessary but feel good consumption they will turn a blind eye to the real problems and issues we face.  

I have believed for a long time you do not need to physically bomb or attack the west to beat us, just shut down our power supply or blockade us from our ability to consume.  The public would not be able handle the loss of the superfluous and superficial cold turkey.  It would be anarchy and the dark ages which we would never recover from.

And I think we have no one to blame but ourselves.  We have allowed this happen, we willing ingest this garbage.  China, has simply seen the window of opportunity, over the years, and has capitalized on it; bully to them, well played.  We simply opened that window.


----------



## mariomike

> And the crowds go wild


----------



## Good2Golf

FJAG said:
			
		

> Fairly good McLean`s article:
> 
> Read rest here: https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/footprints-of-the-coronavirus-how-it-came-to-canada-and-went-around-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR2G3O15Ho0opG3i08HzJ9Q-2yNWTqb9t4i3cl5S3uCuU_svi1hPsHyY5yA
> 
> :cheers:



Very interesting read!  It will be interesting to see how the Federal Government’s position develops, particularly re: the WHO...


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >So many benefits (?)  I'm sure the victims, particularly those in LTC facilities, will rest easier knowing they were unwitting conscripted warriors in the achievements.
> 
> Did you bother to read it?  The author doesn't suggest conscripting victims, or even that victims should be discounted.
> 
> "This post lists many benefits that could arise, so readers can consider how to maximize them, not just minimize harms."
> 
> This is the proper way to "use a crisis": not to enact a political agenda, but to learn and improve for the next one.



Yes I did.  I was perhaps being a little 'tongue-in-cheekish' by musing that, while beneficial changes may well emerge, the victims, especially those in LTC facilities, would have rather been, you know, not dead.  I agree, it is just a list, and some of it being rather questionable at best (drive-in cinema re-emergence?)

I think I was agreeing with you.  I'll try to be more careful in the future.


----------



## FJAG

So here's an article about how the US is building up a system of Contact-Tracers to help track the covid spread.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/coronavirus-contact-tracers_n_5ebd9dc1c5b66e2790db1035?ri18n=true

And the first question that I ask myself is why haven't they mobilized their several various Army military intelligence brigades (many of whom are National Guard or Army Reserve) to form the backbone of such a system some time ago?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Intelligence_Corps_(United_States_Army)#Major_military_intelligence_units

And for that matter, why haven't we stood up the Canadian Army Intelligence Regiment and it's various reserve Int companies across the country for that job?

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/5-canadian-division/canadian-army-intelligence-regiment/index.page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Branch#Branch_today
https://rusi-ns.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/CCSB_101.pdf

 :dunno:


----------



## ModlrMike

I understand the PRC has a system we could probably leverage.


----------



## Blackadder1916

FJAG said:
			
		

> So here's an article about how the US is building up a system of Contact-Tracers to help track the covid spread.
> 
> https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/coronavirus-contact-tracers_n_5ebd9dc1c5b66e2790db1035?ri18n=true
> 
> And the first question that I ask myself is why haven't they mobilized their several various Army military intelligence brigades (many of whom are National Guard or Army Reserve) to form the backbone of such a system some time ago?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Intelligence_Corps_(United_States_Army)#Major_military_intelligence_units
> 
> And for that matter, why haven't we stood up the Canadian Army Intelligence Regiment and it's various reserve Int companies across the country for that job?
> 
> http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/5-canadian-division/canadian-army-intelligence-regiment/index.page
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Branch#Branch_today
> https://rusi-ns.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/CCSB_101.pdf
> 
> :dunno:





> One of the challenges she found was getting people to talk. Some people who have been exposed hung up on her, or didn’t trust her when she mentioned she was working with the state.
> 
> “People have different degrees of what they would share or not,” Schiff said. “Beyond not trusting that we’re contact tracers, they might not be comfortable sharing information.”
> 
> Those two things combined can make it challenging for contact tracers to communicate with those who might have been exposed.
> 
> Jessica Schiff, a graduate student at Harvard University's T.H. Chan School of Public Health, volunteered to help Massachusetts with contact tracing during her free time between classes and studying.
> 
> “You can’t force anyone to say anything,” she said. For contacts who didn’t pick up the phone after three tries, Schiff would make a note of that next to their name, and someone from the public health department would take on that case.



And saying you were from army intelligence would make people trust you more?

I'm wondering if they are hiring anyone for the role in Alberta.  I do have some experience with communicable disease contact tracing, but that was many years ago and the diseases were of a more "intimate" nature.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Blackadder1916] I do have some experience with communicable disease contact tracing, but that was many years ago and the diseases were of a more "intimate" nature.
[/quote]
KPRT Swimming pool.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> KPRT Swimming pool.



What's that?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> KPRT Swimming pool.



This KPRT?
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/86591.0


----------



## MJP

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> What's that?



Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team.  

The "fire fighting reservoir" doubled as a pool for a number of tours.  It was a great vector for a few communicable diseases.


----------



## Blackadder1916

MJP said:
			
		

> Kandahar Provincial Reconstruction Team.
> 
> The "fire fighting reservoir" doubled as a pool for a number of tours.  It was a great vector for a few communicable diseases.



Okay, but by many years I was referring to the 1970s.  Once while on tour in Egypt following up a spike in STD cases in our and the Aussie contingents that eventually led back to one individual and again in Edmonton, also STD (that was the common contact tracing done by the military), after several cases that were quickly identified as originating from what seem to be the same source connected to "The Ros".  That one was referred to the civilian public health department as we didn't do tracing beyond serving members.


----------



## dapaterson

Contact tracing is the responsibility of various provincial public health entities, and is being done.


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Contact tracing is the responsibility of various provincial public health entities, and is being done.



True enough and should stay that way because it is a public health issue. But note the following from the Public Health Ontario website:



> Public Health Ontario, in collaboration with the Ministry of Health and the federal government, is strengthening Ontario’s case and contact tracing for COVID-19, in an effort to further monitor and contain the spread of the virus. To-date, COVID-19 contact tracing has been done by Ontario’s public health units. Public health units will continue to lead this essential work; however, the rising number of cases and contacts to manage means they require additional capacity.



https://www.publichealthontario.ca/en/diseases-and-conditions/infectious-diseases/respiratory-diseases/novel-coronavirus/contact-tracing-initiative

The original article I cited talked about the US looking for 180,000 volunteers to do contact tracing. As I said before, a Mil Int agency could augment public health units and form the backbone of an expansion of tracers. Especially if that became a domestic ops tasks for Mil Int and some basic linkages and training were set up before the next wave.

 :cheers:


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Virus cases rising in Russia as crisis eases elsewhere*
> 
> As the coronavirus outbreak eases in Western Europe and parts of the U.S., cases are rising steadily in Russia in a crisis that has damaged President Vladimir Putin’s standing and stirred suspicion that the true death toll in the country is being concealed.
> 
> Russia is now behind only the United States in the number of reported infections. Cases are also spiking in such places as India, South Africa and Mexico.
> 
> On Tuesday, new hot spots emerged in Russia, and the country recorded nearly 9,300 new infections in 24 hours, bringing the total to almost 300,000, about half of them in Moscow. Authorities say over 2,800 people with COVID-19 have died in Russia, a figure some say is surely higher.
> 
> Some experts argue Russian authorities have been listing chronic illnesses as the cause of death for many who tested positive for the virus. Officials angrily deny manipulating statistics, saying Russia’s low death toll reflects early preventive measures and broad screening. Nearly 7.4 million tests have been conducted in the country of 147 million people.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/6dbd9ad370add2ba299c7da46c25004f





> *Russia says many coronavirus patients died of other causes. Some disagree*
> 
> Before she died in a Moscow hospital earlier this month, Liubov Kashaeva, 74, twice tested positive for the new coronavirus. Her death was not attributed to the virus, however. It was put down to the cancer she had been suffering from.
> 
> “The medical death certificate ... said she died of a malignant tumour,” Kashaeva’s daughter-in-law, Daria Kornilova, said. “Coronavirus was not mentioned anywhere.”
> 
> Kashaeva is one of thousands of Russians infected with the novel coronavirus whose deaths have been put down to other causes.
> 
> Russia has registered the second highest number of infections globally, at 299,941 total cases, and 2,837 deaths. That produces a death rate of 1.88 per 100,000 Russians, according to Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> The equivalent U.S. figure is 27.61 per 100,000 Americans, and 52.45 in Britain.
> 
> Russia has defended the way it counts coronavirus deaths.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-casualties/russia-says-many-coronavirus-patients-died-of-other-causes-some-disagree-idUSKBN22V1Q7


----------



## Kat Stevens

Russia hiding numbers of dead Russians? Never ever happened, fake news.


----------



## daftandbarmy

How Egoicism Is Making the Pandemic Worse

Why do some people resist doing things to stem the spread of the virus?

As the world continues to grapple with the coronavirus pandemic, millions of people are taking action to help their neighbors and communities. Health care providers and first responders come most quickly to mind, but many other people are donating their time and money to help those affected by the pandemic, and hundreds of millions of others have changed their lives to limit the spread of the virus, even when doing so is inconvenient for them personally. The pandemic has brought out the best in many, many people.

But we have also seen many examples of people who not only don’t seem to be contributing to the common good but, in fact, are doing things that are directly helping the virus to infect — and perhaps kill — their fellow citizens. We see people who refuse to wear masks (and who even become violent when asked to do so), people who make no effort to maintain a safe distance from others, and people who insist on being allowed to congregate in large groups.  

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/toward-less-egoic-world/202005/how-egoicism-is-making-the-pandemic-worse


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Why do some people resist doing things to stem the spread of the virus?



Why?  Sociological problems, lack of education, DNA....who knows?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/toward-less-egoic-world/202005/how-egoicism-is-making-the-pandemic-worse



In combination with the more intrinsic explanations outlined in your article, I came across this one some weeks ago. It’s a more superficial analysis of the “whys” of some societal behaviour during these times, which is helpful also.

 https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/think-act-be/202003/5-bad-reasons-some-people-still-arent-social-distancing

Understanding what may be at the root cause of some people’s lack of cooperation during covid is beneficial, but it sure is still frustrating to witness at times.


----------



## mariomike

:goodpost:

Something a childhood idol said makes more sense about understanding human behavior the older I get, "It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing all your life."


----------



## daftandbarmy

BREAKING: Air France definitely retires Airbus A380 fleet

Air France announced that the nine Airbus A380 aircraft that remained in its fleet would not take off again, two years before their official withdrawal.

Shortly after his arrival at the helm of Air France-KLM Group, CEO Benjamin Smith took the decision to retire the A380. “The current competitive environment limits the markets in which the A380 can profitably operate,” stated the group at the time, adding that “keeping this aircraft in the fleet would involve significant costs, while the aircraft programme was suspended by Airbus earlier in 2019.” By 2022, the whole fleet was supposed to be retired and in November 2019, the first superjumbo was sent back to its lessor.

However, with the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic that forced Air France to immobilize the nine remaining A380s and the low demand expected for the coming months, Air France-KLM decided to pull the plug early. On May 20, 2020, the group announced “the definitive end of Air France Airbus A380 operations.”

The early retirement of the A380s and their depreciation in the accounts of Air France-KLM will result in a financial impact of €500 million. The superjumbo will be replaced by new generation aircraft, including the Airbus A350 and the Boeing 787, that have yet to be delivered.


https://www.aerotime.aero/clement.charpentreau/25021-breaking-air-france-definitely-retires-airbus-a380-fleet?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR1FbbYaqDMQXEsEXExLj4DNh1txqc8bF7e7HH17rRRLp2Yqtxgo7Z1aTNA


----------



## Rifleman62

Our Regimental march dates back to the Riel Rebellion. The words are Pork Beans and Hardtack ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iboG6b3ewA ) Curiously, The University of Utah Fight Song.

The Regimental Band has put together a COVID 19 hand-washing video.  Please watch and if you have any comments, please send to the Bandmaster, Captain Ryan Wehrle at ryanwehrle@hotmail.com

https://youtu.be/6v3Emq3dWc4 

It’s on the brigade, unit and band Facebook pages as well. Enjoy a laugh at my expense. 

Proud of our Regimental Band for their work on this!

DMus


----------



## daftandbarmy

Wonderful….

“Everything looked ready to go, and then the government announced emergency benefits for students and young people. As a result, all but four employees decided to stay home, opting to collect government cheques rather than working all day every day for 50 per cent more pay.”


Chris Day: We are forming new work habits because of the lockdown — and that's going to be a problem

With COVID-19 closures and lockdowns now in their ninth week, an important milestone looms: day 66.

Researchers at University College London found that 66 days is the average time it takes for new behaviours to become automatic or habitual. (Giant grain of salt: this varies with the individual, the activity and the circumstances.) This prompts questions about what habits we are hardwiring into ourselves, given that our daily lives have been upended now for two months and counting.

Roughly 40 per cent of what we do is habitual and, according to Jim Davies, a professor of psychology at Carleton University, forming habits is important for higher-order thinking — i.e., thinking about things other than the immediate task that is occupying us at any given moment. Essentially, habits clear brain space for us to deal with life’s bigger decisions.

So, with lives and routines completely disrupted, how will the habits we are installing now affect how and when we emerge from our current state? Davies doubts anyone knows for sure. And because habits are so individual, it may be impossible for governments and employers to predict precisely how they will factor into the economic recovery on a society-wide scale. Yet with billions of dollars of public money at stake, and our economic health on the line, that’s a major problem. And already there are signs that government aid may be having counterproductive effects.

Take the case of Cleen Detailing, a car care company with operations in Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. As its managers were ramping up for the start of their busy season this spring, they went looking to hire dozens of college- and university-aged workers for the summer. Hundreds of candidates applied and dozens were shortlisted. Some even signed contracts. The company invested in extra safety and sanitization protocols to protect them from infection.

Everything looked ready to go, and then the government announced emergency benefits for students and young people. As a result, all but four employees decided to stay home, opting to collect government cheques rather than working all day every day for 50 per cent more pay. The company’s owner, now scrambling to find workers and keep customers, worries that some people’s work ethic is starting to atrophy. He wonders how that will impact his hiring going forward — especially if wage replacements are extended beyond June.

If welfare-over-work becomes habit, how tough will that instinct be to break? If the car detailer’s experience is shared more broadly, will it put a stop to talk about schemes like a universal basic income? Looked at another way, how might work be valued and rewarded after the pandemic?

Some employers are already giving cues. Twitter recently told its employees that they might be able to work from home indefinitely. Other companies are providing their employees with more flexible schedules and other supports to account for new realities and employee demands. And still others, such as many grocers, have increased wages to compensate workers for heightened risks. Expect those costs to appear on future grocery bills, if they haven’t already.

What cues are governments sending? Most provinces are being tentative in their reopening and relaunch plans, despite emptying coffers and ballooning deficits. As for the federal government, all signs so far indicate that the taps will stay open and public dollars will continue to flow for as long as it takes. But that is neither sustainable, nor perhaps advisable, as those bills will come due, as well.

Yet even while the pandemic programs are still in place, there will be a need for governments at all levels to tweak or overhaul them, since most of them were rolled out at lightning speed at the start of this crisis. And in order to do this effectively, governments need information.
Some stats — like rates of substance and spousal abuse, suicides and other collateral damage that has resulted from the lockdowns — are fairly easy to obtain. But others are inherently individual and tougher to quantify, so how will governments and corporations make decisions accordingly? What role will legislators play in assessing whether programs are working as intended or not? How will companies incentivize people to return to full productivity?

The habits we are learning now will influence how and when we are ready to go back into the world. If leaders are thinking deeply about that, most aren’t talking about it. It may be that they simply don’t have answers, but with health restrictions remaining in place for the foreseeable future and debt clocks spiralling ever upward, time may be a luxury in the search for solutions.

With habits becoming more ingrained by the day, any potential corrections may get tougher and less politically palatable — but also more urgent. And from a public policy perspective, that should be focusing minds across the land.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/chris-day-on-covid-19-we-are-forming-new-work-habits-because-of-the-lockdown-and-thats-going-to-be-a-problem/wcm/93235e4a-9898-441a-a819-0a470d48e263/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Our Regimental march dates back to the Riel Rebellion. The words are Pork Beans and Hardtack ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iboG6b3ewA ) Curiously, The University of Utah Fight Song.
> 
> The Regimental Band has put together a COVID 19 hand-washing video.  Please watch and if you have any comments, please send to the Bandmaster, Captain Ryan Wehrle at ryanwehrle@hotmail.com
> 
> https://youtu.be/6v3Emq3dWc4
> 
> It’s on the brigade, unit and band Facebook pages as well. Enjoy a laugh at my expense.
> 
> Proud of our Regimental Band for their work on this!
> 
> DMus



That’s terrific, I bet they had a lot of fun putting that together. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Blackadder1916

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> The Regimental Band has put together a COVID 19 hand-washing video.  . . .



Good fun, but having to learn a new tune and lyrics would take too long.  I've long stopped using Happy Birthday as a timing device.  Even before the pandemic, my song of choice was "North Atlantic Squadron"; the chorus, a verse and a chorus comes out about 23 seconds.  It is much more entertaining and probably most in uniform (at least from my generation) already know the tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2fJ6zmKFeY


----------



## Navy_Pete

Okay, so quick math; student benefit is $1250 a month. If he's paying 50% more then that, that's $1875 a month. At min wage, he's talking about scheduling people for about 30 hours a week.  After taxes, they would probably pocket $4k for the summer, and just tuition is $6-8k.

At the current min wage, working 160 hours in a month, you are looking at $2240/month. Bear in mind that you get a few 31 day months, plus good chance of holiday pay, OT etc. If you do landscaping or similar, it's really easy to do 60 hours or more a week if the weather cooperates, and lots of other jobs have opportunities to pick up extra shifts and get more hours.

 If he's having a hard time finding students, it's not because they are lazy, it's because they are smart enough to find another job where they can make enough to pay tuition. Even if you have zero living expenses during the summer, after taxes, he's not paying enough to pay for tuition for a year (let alone books and all the other expenses you run into).

So F*&^ this guy for making it a generational thing when he is trying to take advantage of students as cheap disposable labour and having a hard time finding people. Schedule/pay people enough hours so they can afford to live and maybe you'll have more success. 

There are a lot of students pretty panicked about being able to go to school next year; in my experience as a current PGT, they are smarter and harder working then I was 20 years ago, with a lot more competition. This is turning into a pretty nasty bow wave with some of the changes to the student loan programs in Ontario, so expect to see enrollment drop significantly next year. Taking a gap year to work isn't a bad thing, but the stereotypes of Gen Z are way off point from the type of people that are plugging away in post secondary from what I can tell.


----------



## PuckChaser

The 50% figure wasn't in quotations, so that's the author's figure. Indeed has Cleen Detailing paying $18 per hour, so just under $3000 before taxes and deductions. That's a reasonable wage for unskilled seasonal labour.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Global report: don't count on vaccine, US scientist warns, as cases near 5 million

Brazil reports nearly 20,000 infections in one day; Trump says he’ll stop taking hydroxychloroquine in two days; Lufthansa in rescue talks

A top US scientist has said governments should not count on a Covid-19 vaccine being developed any time soon, as global infections were set to pass 5 million after surges in Latin America, including Brazil, which has recorded nearly 20,000 new cases.

William Haseltine, the groundbreaking cancer, HIV/AIDS and human genome projects researcher, has said the best approach to the pandemic is to manage the disease through careful tracing of infections and strict isolation measures whenever it starts spreading.

He said that while a vaccine could be developed, “I wouldn’t count on it”, and urged people to wear masks, wash hands, clean surfaces and keep a distance. Vaccines developed previously for other types of coronavirus had failed to protect mucous membranes in the nose where the virus typically enters the body, he said.

The United States and other countries has not done enough to “forcibly isolate” people exposed to the virus, Haseltine said, but praised China, South Korea and Taiwan’s efforts to curb infections.

Haseltine said the US, Russia and Brazil – which rank first, second and third for infections – have done the worst.

As global infections neared 5 million, Brazil reported a record 19,951 cases on Wednesday, according to the ministry of health, taking total infections to 291,579. If the trend continues, the country would shortly overtake Russia’s cases (308,705).

Brazil’s health ministry, meanwhile issued new guidelines for the wider use of anti-malarial drugs in mild coronavirus cases, a treatment touted by President Jair Bolsonaro in defiance of public health experts warning of possible health risks.

The interim health minister, Eduardo Pazuello, an army general, authorised the use after two doctors left the ministry’s top job under pressure to promote early use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine.

The new guidelines suggest dosage for the anti-malarials along with the antibiotic azithromycin at the onset of symptoms. Patients or family members will have to sign a waiver recognising potential side effects.

President Trump has said his hydroxycholoquine regimen, which goes against the advice of the US Food and Drug Administration, would end in two days. Trump also said if New York and New Jersey were not included in the US Covid-19 numbers, the country would be “just about in a class by ourselves”. He strongly criticised China’s reported coronavirus figures, saying: “they gave numbers that were so low … I saw more problem on television than they were reporting, just by looking at a picture.”


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/global-report-coronavirus-vaccine-us-scientist-cases-5-million


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *28 CAF members sent to Quebec, Ontario care homes diagnosed with COVID-19*
> 
> The Canadian Armed Forces is reporting a dramatic increase in the number of military personnel who have contracted COVID-19 while working in long-term care facilities in Ontario and Quebec.
> 
> A total of 28 service members deployed in such facilities have tested positive for the respiratory illness, the military said in a statement Thursday. That compared with only five who had been found to have caught COVID-19 last week.
> 
> Military officials had previously indicated they were only to provide such updated numbers every two weeks. The Armed Forces now says it will publish a daily update, suggesting it expects more cases as service members continue to work in long-term care homes.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/twenty-eight-soldiers-test-positive-for-covid-19-after-working-in-care-homes-1.4948771
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-coronavirus-canadian-forces-long-term-care-1.5578948
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6969802/coronavirus-armed-forces-care-homes/


----------



## Jarnhamar

> 28 CAF members sent to Quebec, Ontario care homes diagnosed with COVID-19
> 
> The Canadian Armed Forces is reporting a dramatic increase in the number of military personnel who have contracted COVID-19 while working in long-term care facilities in Ontario and Quebec.



Didn't the CDS say we weren't going to report numbers on our members getting covid?


----------



## Quirky

Death by PowerPoint may get a whole new meaning.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Didn't the CDS say we weren't going to report numbers on our members getting covid?



That's only in China


----------



## Colin Parkinson

A very Irish problem
https://www.dw.com/en/stale-beer-turned-into-animal-feed-and-distance-drinking-irish-pubs-in-the-age-of-coronavirus/a-53521936


----------



## Rifleman62

> 28 CAF members sent to Quebec, Ontario care homes diagnosed with COVID-19



Good luck with VAC. They will probably need a letter signed by the Surgeon General stating COVID-19 wholly resulted from military service and even that letter will not be enough proof for the various Adjudicators.


----------



## Ralph

28x CF 98 and DND 663s to be staffed. Supervisors, sharpen your pencils!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ralph said:
			
		

> 28x CF 98 and DND 663s to be staffed,_* so far.*_ Supervisors, sharpen your pencils!



There, FTFY.


----------



## Rifleman62

" Somebody" with authority should have staffed a template of the CF98 and DND 663 quoting the CF OpO authority, for the CF pers who get infected. Run it by VAC to ensure it meets their requirements, brief VAC staff that these docs are approved. All the on site units would have to do would be to add victim and witness particulars, dates, loc, possibly some supporting detail, etc.


----------



## Jarnhamar

_ We can't prove they didn't have Covid before going into the long term care facilities_ - probably VAC


----------



## MilEME09

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> _ We can't prove they didn't have Covid before going into the long term care facilities_ - probably VAC



Except likely they were under orders to work from home leading up to it.


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Except likely they were under orders to work from home leading up to it.



Assuming they followed said orders.


----------



## Rifleman62

Exactly. The reason for a DND/VAC approved documents prior to submission. It also takes the stress off the victim or the C oC if there is a fatality. 

I thought everyone was quarantine for 2 weeks prior to deployment? Understand you could be clear one day, infected the next. Another reason to cut VAC off at the knees.

Leading Change?


----------



## BDTyre

Yes, they were quarantined for two weeks prior to deployment. That seems to be a CAF-wide requirement.


----------



## Stoker

Trudeau says question of hazard pay for military in care homes remains undecided

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says the question of whether military members serving in long-term care homes hit by the coronavirus pandemic remains under consideration.

But he gave no indication of whether any decision has been made.

“These are discussions that are ongoing within the military,” Trudeau said when asked during a daily press briefing whether those deployed to the hard-hit care homes in Ontario and Quebec should earn more money.

“We need to thank the women and men of the armed Forces for stepping up yet again, whenever they are called on to go into difficult or risky situations to do the work of protecting Canadians. This is what they are doing, we thank them and we salute them.”

The number of Canadian Forces members deployed to long-term care homes who have contracted COVID-19 has risen rapidly over the past week.

A total of 28 have been diagnosed as of Thursday.

That compares to just five who were found to have tested positive last week.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6973811/coronavirus-canadian-military-care-homes/?fbclid=IwAR2q2qn03p3IZkWULw7_kWh31HJMvFRP04GKEo-ye4izcC3yQnUY_j1PkwY


----------



## stellarpanther

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Yes, they were quarantined for two weeks prior to deployment. That seems to be a CAF-wide requirement.



A lot of the people doing GD type work are the ones who were quarantining in Borden however, most of the medics were taken from the various base MIR's some were working right up to a few days before getting deployed.


----------



## stellarpanther

Today's letter from the CDS, amongst other topics it states that they will soon be restarting training but only vaguely mentions returning to work,  has anyone heard more people returning to the office or is that something that will be a while still and we will continue to work from home?

https://twitter.com/cds_canada_cemd?lang=en


----------



## kkwd

The latest from Dr Fauci

https://www.businessinsider.com/anthony-fauci-irreparable-damage-stay-at-home-too-long-2020-5



> Anthony Fauci warns of 'irreparable damage' if lockdowns are kept in place for too long





> "We can't stay locked down for such a considerable period of time that you might do irreparable damage and have unintended consequences, including consequences for health," Fauci said in a CNBC interview.


----------



## Remius

He’s not wrong.

But I am concerned here at least that measures haven’t been properly implemented.

Tracing, testing etc.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Today's letter from the CDS, amongst other topics it states that they will soon be restarting training but only vaguely mentions returning to work,  has anyone heard more people returning to the office or is that something that will be a while still and we will continue to work from home?
> 
> https://twitter.com/cds_canada_cemd?lang=en



I just got a Frag O for our BRP today. The details are sparse but clarity is expected in the next week or 2. It'll be a phased return to work so if you're not getting information right now you're probably not going back first (or your Chain of Command sucks).


----------



## dapaterson

There are ongoing discussions at the Commanders of the RCN / CA / RCAF and their peers levels to sync and co-ord the return, which will be staggered, different in different locations and for different units, and may well advance and then retreat if the conditions warrant.


----------



## dapaterson

More from the Deputy Minister:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2020/05/update-from-deputy-minister-jody-thomas-on-business-resumption-planning.html


> Team,
> 
> You want to know when we will resume business activities and what that will look like. Here is best answer I can give you right now.
> 
> THE SHORT ANSWER
> In no way making light of this difficult situation, the answer is "it depends". But as Deputy Minister, I have no expectation that all of you will be back in your regular places of work on 1 June. Some of you may be but a great number of factors must be considered, communication will have occurred, and safety measures will have been put in place before that happens.



There's also a joint DM/CDS directive on business resumption:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/joint-cds-dm-directive-for-the-resumption-of-activities.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> More from the Deputy Minister:
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2020/05/update-from-deputy-minister-jody-thomas-on-business-resumption-planning.html
> There's also a joint DM/CDS directive on business resumption:
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/joint-cds-dm-directive-for-the-resumption-of-activities.html



Uh oh.. he started the note with 'Team'.


----------



## dapaterson

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Uh oh.. he started the note with 'Team'.



Jody is a she, not a he.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Moving


----------



## mariomike

> AirBoss of America Donates ISO-PODS to Toronto Paramedic Services in Battle with COVID-19
> https://twitter.com/AirbossAmerica/status/1263151665831649286



Airboss donated five of these negative-pressure individual patient isolation and transportation systems, knows as ISO-POD units, to the department.

In addition to Covid-19, they can be used to transport patients with any highly contagious disease ( eg: Ebola, Sars, MERS ) in isolation to ensure the safety of our paramedics.


----------



## Kilted

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Jody is a she, not a he.



Unless you are in the Marine Corps.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*Toronto officials condemn ‘dangerous’ behaviour of people who packed park*
City officials in Toronto are condemning the “dangerous” behaviour of people who flooded a popular downtown park on Saturday, saying they could cause a surge in COVID-19 cases.

A statement released by the City late Saturday night says thousands of people packed Trinity Bellwoods Park on one of the first warm days of the year, flouting physical distancing regulations.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-officials-condemn-dangerous-behaviour-of-people-who-packed-2/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Ontario records another spike in new COVID-19 cases*
> 
> Ontario health officials have reported another spike in the number of new COVID-19 cases.
> 
> The province recorded 460 new cases of the novel coronavirus Sunday morning, the fourth straight day that daily case numbers have been above 400.
> 
> Sunday's report marks the highest number of new cases reported in Ontario since May 8. when 477 new cases were confirmed. The rise represents a 1.8 per cent increase over yesterday's total.
> 
> More than 64 per cent of all confirmed cases were reported by public health units in the Greater Toronto Area.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-records-another-spike-in-new-covid-19-cases-1.4952266


----------



## PuckChaser

But when you break down the actual data without trying to run alarmist clickbait titles, there's only an increase of 100 confirmed positive cases, with 330 now listed as resolved. 15 less people are on ventilators, 50 less people in hospital...


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A statement released by the City late Saturday night says thousands of people packed Trinity Bellwoods Park on one of the first warm days of the year, flouting physical distancing regulations.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-officials-condemn-dangerous-behaviour-of-people-who-packed-2/



1500 parks in the city. I don't know why they decided to pack Trinity Bellwoods.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Toronto officials condemn ‘dangerous’ behaviour of people who packed park*
> City officials in Toronto are condemning the “dangerous” behaviour of people who flooded a popular downtown park on Saturday, saying they could cause a surge in COVID-19 cases.
> 
> A statement released by the City late Saturday night says thousands of people packed Trinity Bellwoods Park on one of the first warm days of the year, flouting physical distancing regulations.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-officials-condemn-dangerous-behaviour-of-people-who-packed-2/



Leftists always exclude themselves from their own policies. I can pretty much smell that park picture from here, Toronto is disgusting.


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm shocked to hear the Police/Bylaw Officers only handed out 4 tickets.  People urinating or defecating on someone's lawn need to be arrested.  If nothing is going to be enforced, then many people have made clear through their actions that they won't follow rules.  The Premier and other politicians need to stop asking nicely and "educating" people.  If they haven't learned yet, they are not going to.  
Although they're not saying it, it's clear to me at least that governments have decided to focus on the economy rather than the health, otherwise things won't be opening as they are and things would be enforced.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> , Toronto is disgusting.



Feel better?

Maybe that's why it is the most populous city in Canada.

If this is how we are going to spend our Sunday afternoon,

Toronto: Love it or hate it?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119520.0
10 pages.


----------



## Ralph

Quirky said:
			
		

> Leftists always exclude themselves from their own policies. I can pretty much smell that park picture from here, Toronto is disgusting.


Sorry, was the leftist smell one of BO, or pot?


----------



## mariomike

Ralph said:
			
		

> Sorry, was the leftist smell one of BO, or pot?



I guess these are the real super-patriots of the Covid-19 era?

Lake of the Ozarks
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/24/wild-party-at-ozarks-lake-coronavirus-social-distancing/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ralph said:
			
		

> Sorry, was the leftist smell one of BO, or pot?





*Toronto refuses to lose to New York in COVID-19 case count* 

TORONTO – Some residents of Toronto disappointed with a lacklustre performance in the number of coronavirus cases came out to give their city a boost at Trinity Bellwoods Park.

“We want Toronto to have the same feel as New York City, but we have to catch up,” said 26-year-old Madison Fletcher. “We need to live so other people can die.”

https://thebeaverton.com/2020/05/toronto-refuses-to-lose-to-new-york-in-covid-19-case-count/


----------



## mariomike

Population GTA: 6,417,516 ( 2016 )

Those people at Trinity Bellwoods Park showed poor judgement. Very poor judgement.

But, they represent only a tiny percentage of the population.


----------



## Jarnhamar

They were pissing and shitting in people's back yards. Thats scumbag behavior. What's with the Trinity park area and why weren't the police more strict?


----------



## dimsum

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What's with the Trinity park area and why weren't the police more strict?



I asked that too.  Apparently that area is now very trendy, so it's a place to "be seen" on social media and such.  

I remember reading an article saying there were 10 bylaw enforcement folks.  That's not nearly enough for a crowd that size.


----------



## stellarpanther

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I asked that too.  Apparently that area is now very trendy, so it's a place to "be seen" on social media and such.
> 
> I remember reading an article saying there were 10 bylaw enforcement folks.  That's not nearly enough for a crowd that size.



Yet they could only issue 4 tickets.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What's with the Trinity park area and why weren't the police more strict?



I've been retired a long time. I don't recall ever seeing more than about a half-dozen people in that park, at any one time. 

But, that was a long time ago. Blue-collar, working class. Wasn't "trendy" back then. 

So, maybe they weren't local? Or, recent arrivals? A lot of out-of-towners come into that area for the bars. ( Toronto gets over 27.5 million visitors a year. )

Maybe they saw this park party as the next best thing, with the bars shut down. ( I think they are? )

With 1500 parks in the city, Trinity Bellwoods Park appears to be the only one where social distancing was a major problem.

Certainly is not a problem in my neighbourhood.

Perhaps the police and by-law people were caught by surprise and felt overwhelmed?  :dunno:


----------



## PMedMoe

Quirky said:
			
		

> Leftists always exclude themselves from their own policies. I can pretty much smell that park picture from here, Toronto is disgusting.



And you know they're leftists because???


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And you know they're leftists because???




It's probably accurate. It's like guessing a gathering of people in say, Petawawa, would be mostly Conservatives.

Trinity park is in the middle of a liberal fortress.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:
			
		

> Leftists always exclude themselves from their own policies.





			
				Ralph said:
			
		

> Sorry, was the leftist smell one of BO, or pot?



If people want to call people "Leftists", perhaps this would be a better place for that conversation,

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612337;topicseen#new


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:
			
		

> If people want to call people "Leftists", perhaps this would be a better place for that conversation,
> 
> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612337;topicseen#new



Or maybe let's not make assumptions.


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's probably accurate. It's like guessing a gathering of people in say, Petawawa, would be mostly Conservatives.
> 
> Trinity park is in the middle of a liberal fortress



I wouldn't take that info to make such an assumption  given this comment:



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> Apparently that area is now very trendy, so it's a place to "be seen" on social media and such.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Well well well, talk about leading by example look at who it is. The mayor himself ignoring social distancing rules and treating PPE like it's a joke.









> * Mayor apologizes for own behaviour at Trinity Bellwoods, after city cracked down on 'dangerous' crowds*
> 
> Trinity Bellwoods Park was much quieter Sunday, after officials in Toronto increased enforcement and condemned the "selfish and dangerous" behaviour of people who flooded the downtown park on Saturday, saying it could cause a spike in COVID-19 cases and undo weeks of collective effort.
> 
> Meanwhile, Toronto Mayor John Tory is apologizing for his own failure to properly wear a mask and physically distance while at the park, saying he went there to determine why the situation was happening.




I guess that answers why people thought they could get away with it AND why the police probably weren't breaking up the party and giving tickets. 

Way to go Mayor Tory.


----------



## Ralph

The more-important question is what the mayor smells like.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Way to go Mayor Tory.



He beat Doug, and got 63.49% of the vote in his second term. 

Toronto has been under a state of emergency since March 23, 2020. 

The city never removed Mayor Tory's power to govern in a state of emergency. Like they did with Rob Ford.



			
				Ralph said:
			
		

> The more-important question is what the mayor smells like.



Likely better than his predecessor.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> He beat Doug, and got 63.49% of the vote in his second term.



Completely irrelevant. Doug wasn't hanging around Trinity park violating social distancing and wearing a facemask in a stupid way. 



> The city never removed Mayor Tory's power to govern in a state of emergency. Like they did with Rob Ford.
> 
> Likely better than his predecessor.



The usual 'butwhatabout Rob Ford' deflection.


----------



## daftandbarmy

May: How COVID-19 could reshape Canada's federal public service

_“It’s never been a technology limitation. It’s the philosophy about managing the workforce that has to change,” said Michel Vermette, a former CEO of the Association of Professional Executives of the Public Service of Canada. “It means making people accountable for what they produce, and the public service has not done that very well. It has substituted office presence for production. Managers need to think differently; hold people accountable for what they do, not for showing up,” he said._


The COVID-19 pandemic has handed the public service a grand-scale opportunity to experiment with new ways of operating, including rethinking the need for massive office buildings in Ottawa-Gatineau and embracing digital government more fully. What public servants learn in the next few months by working remotely and in crisis could jolt the bureaucracy into a re-ordering of practices and culture that reformers haven’t been able to do in 25 years.

Public servants rapidly mobilized over the past two months to implement a massive financial aid package, abandoning play-it-safe and rules-bound processes to put the needs of Canadians first as they doled out billions in emergency funding.

“It’s not that the crisis is forcing us to reshape the public service, but the post-pandemic world could be the window of opportunity, or necessity, to accelerate the renewal and reforms in institutions,” former privy council clerk Michael Wernick said in an interview.
Alex Benay, the former chief information officer who led the government’s digital agenda until he left for the private sector, wrote the crisis unleashed a “new norm,” the “digital first” government he’s long pressed for.

“Sadly, it took COVID-19 for people to realize that the real problem was not technology, not necessarily the culture … The real ‘enemy,’ so to speak, has been the operating model of government has yet to change to adjust to the new digital realities,” Benay wrote in a recent LinkedIn post.

It’s not the first time the public service has roared into action to combat a crisis. Its rapid response was reminiscent of the moves it made during the “program review” budgetary cuts of the 1990s, after the 9/11 attacks, and during the 2008-09 financial crisis, which had lasting impacts on government.

These events didn’t, however, fundamentally change the culture of the public service and many argue it went back to its old risk-averse and hierarchical ways as the crisis receded. That culture is hard-wired into public service, built on rules developed to keep governments accountable for the decisions they make with taxpayers’ money.

The public service has been slow to embrace technology that’s changing the private sector at breakneck speed. Bureaucrats have been pushed to innovate, to use digital tools to rethink how they work and deliver services, to take risks, and even to fail as they experiment with new ways of working.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/may-how-covid-19-could-reshape-canadas-federal-public-service/wcm/0d924d0f-c4b4-49e7-ba72-bb6ab17db54f/


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Doug wasn't hanging around Trinity park violating social distancing and wearing a facemask in a stupid way.



Mayor Tory wasn't "hanging around" the park. He was trying to deal with the situation. He admits he made an error. 

If you want to argue politics, 

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612389/topicseen.html#new
22 pages.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:
			
		

> Mayor Tory wasn't "hanging around" the park. He was trying to deal with the situation. He admits he made an error.
> 
> If you want to argue politics,
> 
> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612389/topicseen.html#new
> 22 pages.



You made it political with your yeahbutDoug comments. The topic was mayoral stupidity and hypocrisy.


----------



## mariomike

Target Up said:
			
		

> The topic was mayoral stupidity and hypocrisy.



Mayors are political.

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612389/topicseen.html#new
22 pages.

Sounds like some posters must have perfect mayors. So perfect, they have to be obsessed with ours.


----------



## Navy_Pete

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> May: How COVID-19 could reshape Canada's federal public service
> 
> _“It’s never been a technology limitation. It’s the philosophy about managing the workforce that has to change,” said Michel Vermette, a former CEO of the Association of Professional Executives of the Public Service of Canada. “It means making people accountable for what they produce, and the public service has not done that very well. It has substituted office presence for production. Managers need to think differently; hold people accountable for what they do, not for showing up,” he said._



This has been neat to see from the sidelines, and especially combined with the absolute crap show that the Ottawa LRT is, I can see lots of people never wanting to go back to the office. The HQ building they are talking about used to be directly serviced by a number of express buses which were canceled when the LRT rolled out, so most went from one bus directly to there to two buses and a train (which sometimes turned into three or four buses and possibly some walking when the train broke).

Given the lack of parking at the DND sites hoping this becomes more normal for military folks employed here as well until there is a vaccine or something. No reason why the bulk of us have to be in the office every single day, and personally find I get way more done at home then in the noisy, distracting workplace 2.0 environment.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Mayor Tory wasn't "hanging around" the park. He was trying to deal with the situation. He admits he made an error.
> 
> If you want to argue politics,
> 
> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612389/topicseen.html#new
> 22 pages.



I'm not interested in arguing politics at all my friend. You're the one who brought up politics and Doug Ford as a comparison with voting percentages. For some reason you also brought up Toronto's former mayor who died 4 years ago, well before Covid19 struck.

It appears John contributed to the problem, not dealt with it. I guess he can join the growing list of public officials who tell people to behave a certain way and get caught doing the opposite. Maybe the police should give him a ticket  :nod:


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The public service has been slow to embrace technology that’s changing the private sector at breakneck speed. Bureaucrats have been pushed to innovate, to use digital tools to rethink how they work and deliver services, to take risks, and even to fail as they experiment with new ways of working.



With the development of many digital tools, what I and many others have noticed is that it has actually created double the work.  CAF/DND and I assume other departments now has the ability to do electronic signatures on documents.  Most units that I'm familiar with are doing digital signatures and then signing original documents and to put on file.  Many private companies are getting away from paper files but we continue to use an antiquated system of having Pers Files and Leave jackets.  There is no need for them.  We can have electronic files that are backed up.  IMO, a digital signature that requires the use of a PKI card should suffice.  It would cut down on a lot of work and save a lot of trees.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in arguing politics at all my friend.



That's nice, friend.

Because I have no interest in knowing, or arguing about, _your_  mayor, whoever s/he is.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:
			
		

> Mayors are political.
> 
> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/132115/post-1612389/topicseen.html#new
> 22 pages.
> 
> Sounds like some posters must have perfect mayors. So perfect, they have to be obsessed with ours.



My mayor (Reeve, actually), is a blithering idiot, and if he was photographed hanging out in a park with his mask hanging off his chin well within the 2m no fly zone, rest assured I and most other people in the county would be all over him.  We certainly wouldn't blame the previous, dead, guy. Look, I get it, you're not a Fordie and Toronto the Great is all you know, but you're starting to take this stuff way too personally.


----------



## Lumber

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> _“It’s never been a technology limitation. It’s the philosophy about managing the workforce that has to change,” said Michel Vermette, a former CEO of the Association of Professional Executives of the Public Service of Canada. “It means making people accountable for what they produce, and the public service has not done that very well. It has substituted office presence for production. Managers need to think differently; hold people accountable for what they do, not for showing up,” he said._



<Heads explode in Japanese>

I agree fully. No boss of mine has ever complained about my productivity, but if they saw how much work time I spent reading the news or commenting on... certain other websites... they might take issue with me, to which I'd have to ask, "has there been anything wrong with the quality or quantity of my work output?".

That being said, there is a balance. Sometimes it's far easier to just go over to someone else's office/cubicle/work area to ask them a question then it is to try and call, email or skype them. But, maybe that's simply a matter of perspective? If part of our work ethic/environment is that we MUST be reachable at anytime during working hours by phone or Skype, and that you MUST put the appropriate "away/out of office" status up when you aren't available, then maybe it WILL become easier to reach people for a quick 2 second question by phone/email/text/Skype. I'm all for it, but we'd need to really drive it home.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> May: How COVID-19 could reshape Canada's federal public service
> 
> _“It’s never been a technology limitation. It’s the philosophy about managing the workforce that has to change,” said Michel Vermette, a former CEO of the Association of Professional Executives of the Public Service of Canada. “It means making people accountable for what they produce, and the public service has not done that very well. It has substituted office presence for production. Managers need to think differently; hold people accountable for what they do, not for showing up,” he said._
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic has handed the public service a grand-scale opportunity to experiment with new ways of operating, including rethinking the need for massive office buildings in Ottawa-Gatineau and embracing digital government more fully. What public servants learn in the next few months by working remotely and in crisis could jolt the bureaucracy into a re-ordering of practices and culture that reformers haven’t been able to do in 25 years.
> 
> Public servants rapidly mobilized over the past two months to implement a massive financial aid package, abandoning play-it-safe and rules-bound processes to put the needs of Canadians first as they doled out billions in emergency funding.
> 
> “It’s not that the crisis is forcing us to reshape the public service, but the post-pandemic world could be the window of opportunity, or necessity, to accelerate the renewal and reforms in institutions,” former privy council clerk Michael Wernick said in an interview.
> Alex Benay, the former chief information officer who led the government’s digital agenda until he left for the private sector, wrote the crisis unleashed a “new norm,” the “digital first” government he’s long pressed for.
> 
> “Sadly, it took COVID-19 for people to realize that the real problem was not technology, not necessarily the culture … The real ‘enemy,’ so to speak, has been the operating model of government has yet to change to adjust to the new digital realities,” Benay wrote in a recent LinkedIn post.
> 
> It’s not the first time the public service has roared into action to combat a crisis. Its rapid response was reminiscent of the moves it made during the “program review” budgetary cuts of the 1990s, after the 9/11 attacks, and during the 2008-09 financial crisis, which had lasting impacts on government.
> 
> These events didn’t, however, fundamentally change the culture of the public service and many argue it went back to its old risk-averse and hierarchical ways as the crisis receded. That culture is hard-wired into public service, built on rules developed to keep governments accountable for the decisions they make with taxpayers’ money.
> 
> The public service has been slow to embrace technology that’s changing the private sector at breakneck speed. Bureaucrats have been pushed to innovate, to use digital tools to rethink how they work and deliver services, to take risks, and even to fail as they experiment with new ways of working.
> 
> https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/may-how-covid-19-could-reshape-canadas-federal-public-service/wcm/0d924d0f-c4b4-49e7-ba72-bb6ab17db54f/



This is coming.  It is unlikely that my team will be returning to the office at all.  My wife’s work is already looking at redoing their office space for the new normal.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

People commenting that we are going to do things differently and the upcoming work from home revolution is better, meanwhile GDP contracts by 10%.   :rofl:


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> People commenting that we are going to do things differently and the upcoming work from home revolution is better, meanwhile GDP contracts by 10%.   :rofl:




When it comes to work from home for Government it likely will have some advantages.  Will it be better? Not sure but our team is actually producing more.  Not saying I like it but it may be a new reality for me at least.

GDP contracting has a lot more to do with the economy shutting down in large sectors.  At the same time many businesses are show how weak their models are by not being adaptable.


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:
			
		

> When it comes to work from home for Government it likely will have some advantages.  Will it be better? Not sure but our team is actually producing more.  Not saying I like it but it may be a new reality for me at least.
> 
> GDP contracting has a lot more to do with the economy shutting down in large sectors.  At the same time many businesses are show how weak their models are by not being adaptable.



When you have Energy, manufacturing, hospitality & Tourism shut down just to name a few major sectors you are going to have a contraction in GDP.


----------



## Remius

And, if more sectors move to a work from home model, (those that can) you will see far more resilience to events like a pandemic.


----------



## OldSolduer

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> People commenting that we are going to do things differently and the upcoming work from home revolution is better, meanwhile GDP contracts by 10%.   :rofl:




Can the "work from home" lot now claim some expenses on their taxes? Or will the current governments ignore that?


----------



## Remius

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Can the "work from home" lot now claim some expenses on their taxes? Or will the current governments ignore that?



https://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/can-you-deduct-home-office-expenses-if-youre-forced-to-work-from-home-during-the-pandemic


----------



## Brad Sallows

You can claim legitimate reasonable expenses, but it's not a tax write-off party.

Initial resistance to shifting work from in-office to in-home is natural (personally and collectively).

How well people adapt depends on tools.  For example, in the past someone might come to my desk to deal with an issue.  Things I didn't like about that: interruption of what I was doing (most people will find it harder to say "later" in person than over e-means), distraction to other people in the area, lack of privacy.  Now we ping (using chat tool or email) to determine availability, agree on time (immediate or later), and use voice and screen-sharing.  Within 30 seconds of being pinged, I can have a voice call (via tools, not phone) and screen share going.  I consider it a vast improvement.

E-meetings allow me to work without distracting other participants for the 95+% of the meeting that doesn't require my rapt attention.  This is particularly useful during long meetings.  It's worth about 4 hours of recovered time (meaning: gained productive hours) in my usual week.  Another vast improvement.

Not commuting saves me 10 hours per week and eliminates associated costs.  2 hours a day represents an approximately 40% increase of my "own time" each working day, and it is pure leisure time.

Obviously, there's no implied requirement to work only from home, all the time.  Use of satellite offices can realize many of the gains.

For those with the capability, it's worth at least a pilot.


----------



## Remius

Some of the advantages, as well as what you listed, would be reduced sick days, less use of personal days for smaller things, less traffic congestion, less distractions from non essential work (because I am guy in the office I get asked to do physical stuff from time to time that aren’t my core tasks) or spending 30mins helping someone unjam a printer they effed up.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Can someone working from home make a WSIBclaim if they fall on their stairs?


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can someone working from home make a WSIBclaim if they fall on their stairs?



Don’t laugh. When we started setting up at home an email went out warning everyone to be careful when setting up.  Someone apparently got hurt. 

But...

I also expect a lot of claims and injuries since people were forced home and may not have the right ergonomics.  

Set up at home is key I think.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can someone working from home make a WSIBclaim if they fall on their stairs?




Health, Safety, and Workers’ Compensation

As employees shift to a home-based workplace, employers should consider ways to promote workplace health and safety.

Employers should check in with employees to ensure that their home workspace is safe, free from hazards and facilitates productivity. Employers may consider implementing minimum standards for WFH arrangements. Employers can require employees to submit photographs of their workspace to ensure compliance with employer expectations. Employers may also consider having employees enter into an agreement that sets out expectations on the health and safety of their home workspace.

Employers should also consider whether the home workspace is insured. Many employer liability policies will encompass WFH arrangements, but this should be verified. Employees may alternatively be covered by their personal home insurance policy.

Whether employees are working from home or in person, there are critical practises that each employer should encourage employees keep up to maintain the health and safety of the workspace. These practices alleviate the risk of spreading COVID-19, which include:
•Practising good hygiene and regular hand washing.
•Maintaining clean workspaces by routinely disinfecting equipment and surfaces.
•Integrating breaks and rest periods.
•Practising social distancing by maintaining space between other persons and minimizing social contact.


https://www.mccarthy.ca/en/insights/blogs/canadian-employer-advisor/covid-19-update-new-normal-facilitating-work-home-arrangements


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Military reports 36 cases of COVID-19 in members working in Quebec, Ontario nursing homes*
> 
> The Canadian Forces say 36 members working in long-term care homes in Ontario and Quebec have now become sick with COVID-19.
> 
> That's up from 28 cases of the novel coronavirus among those troops less than a week ago.
> 
> The military has been deployed to nursing homes in the two provinces to reinforce workers overwhelmed by the illness, unable to keep up with residents' needs because of all the protective measures they need to take, or off work because they're ill themselves.
> 
> Much of their work is tasks such as food service and moving and maintaining equipment, with some medical staff also serving in the homes.
> 
> Fourteen of the military members with COVID-19 are in Ontario and 22 of them are in Quebec.
> 
> When the Forces started reporting the number of positive cases, they said they'd update the figures every two weeks but have revised that plan to give new numbers every day.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/military-reports-36-cases-of-covid-19-in-members-working-in-quebec-ontario-nursing-homes-1.4954819


----------



## dapaterson

Per the CBC's David Cochrane,

PM @JustinTrudeau says military members deployed to Ontario long-term care homes have seen troubling things and those concerns have been shared with the provincial government. He says @fordnation  will have more to say on this later.

PM using words like shocked, disappointed, frustration, grief and anger to describe his reaction to what the military found in some Ontario long-term care homes.


----------



## Remius

Details to come when the Premier speaks.

None of it will be good.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> Details to come when the Premier speaks.
> 
> None of it will be good.



I said when the CAF goes in to the homes we're going to be there for a long time. Workers walking away "because of safety issues" and us not ethically being able to leave after seeing the shitty conditions these people are suffering in.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I said when the CAF goes in to the homes we're going to be there for a long time. Workers walking away "because of safety issues" and us not ethically being able to leave after seeing the shitty conditions these people are suffering in.



We shopped around for a suitable long term care facility for my father in law.  What we saw was scary.  We had to wait 3 years to get into the one we wanted.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Can someone working from home make a WSIBclaim if they fall on their stairs?

I certainly don't know; but my employer requires completion and sign-off of a long checklist, which is reviewed periodically, which addresses safety, ergonomics, and related issues.  Examples: surge protection for the eqpt, height and position of desks and chairs, availability of a fire extinguisher, etc.

There are certainly plenty of published guidelines to follow to make home working space safer and more pleasant.  Whether you can claim against tripping over your dog on the way to get another cup of coffee, though...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

https://globalnews.ca/news/6986338/military-teams-raise-concerns-about-conditions-at-ontario-care-homes/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNews&fbclid=IwAR3xP9RU-Z1jDl-c39jIzcUol0g5vWuRq8VHP6hRYdPobgB4Q6S-LRLOR10

Military personnel sent to nursing homes in Ontario have observed shocking conditions, including “blatant disregard” for infection control measures, mistreatment of residents and a level of care described as “horrible,” according to documents obtained by Global News.

Canadian Armed Forces teams deployed to five of the province’s worst-hit long-term care homes to help control COVID-19 have raised concerns about each of the facilities, describing the care as ranging from below best practices to “borderline abusive, if not abusive” and worse, the documents show.

Infection prevention and control measures were found to be a particular problem, with Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) protocols going unheeded by staff, many of whom were not properly trained, according to the documents obtained from a source familiar with the mission.  Rest at link---


----------



## Kilted

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Per the CBC's David Cochrane,
> 
> PM @JustinTrudeau says military members deployed to Ontario long-term care homes have seen troubling things and those concerns have been shared with the provincial government. He says @fordnation  will have more to say on this later.
> 
> PM using words like shocked, disappointed, frustration, grief and anger to describe his reaction to what the military found in some Ontario long-term care homes.




I think that we are going to see a lot more government oversight on these places, even after this is over. I'm not surprised by these findings.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can someone working from home make a WSIBclaim if they fall on their stairs?




According to Alberta WCB, it depends.
https://www.wcb.ab.ca/assets/pdfs/employers/EFS_Telecommuting.pdf


> Scenario 4:
> Margaret receives a box of office supplies delivered to her
> home. The supplies are paid for by her employer and are
> necessary for her employment.
> 
> The box is large and, when carried, prevents her from seeing
> her feet. As she carries the box down the stairs to her home
> office, she trips and falls. Her doctor diagnoses a sprained
> ankle, contusions and a concussion. Is Margaret covered?
> Probably. Depending on the facts, the injury may be covered
> even though it occurred outside the designated workspace.
> The box is a hazard introduced by her employment and
> contributed to the accident.
> 
> Scenario 5:
> At noon, Margaret decides to take a lunch break. She leaves
> her home office in the basement and climbs the stairs to her
> kitchen.
> On her way up the stairs, she misses a step, falls and cuts her
> chin on a step. The cut requires three stitches. Is Margaret
> covered?
> Probably not. Margaret left her designated workspace
> on personal business and the stairs are not a hazard of
> employment.


----------



## Lumber

> Ontario Premier Doug Ford says the province has launched an investigation that could lead to criminal charges against five long-term care homes rocked by COVID-19.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-military-ltc-report-1.5585131

One things that I will take away from this as a positive is the integrity demonstrated by those members of the CAF serving in these locations, as well as their chains of command, who refused to turn a blind eye.

Here here, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> What we saw was scary.



Probably the way I must have felt, first time being sent into one on a job almost 50 years ago.


----------



## The Bread Guy

And some bits of the CF reports in question (source:  680 News, Toronto) attached :'(


----------



## dangerboy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And some bits of the CF reports in question (source:  680 News, Toronto) attached :'(



Quite disgusting. They better be holding people accountable once this settles.


----------



## The Bread Guy

And here's what appears to be the entire report on Scribd.com.


----------



## PuckChaser

Full report will be released unredacted by Ontario government tomorrow. Absolutely sickening, and I hope there's criminal charges when warranted for the care workers right up to owners.


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And some bits of the CF reports in question (source:  680 News, Toronto) attached :'(



Insane.

Ford should absolutely see that criminal charges are pursued.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Full report will be released unredacted by Ontario government tomorrow. Absolutely sickening, and I hope there's criminal charges when warranted for the care workers right up to owners.



Judging by the comment "Caregiver burnout" it could be that the caregivers gave up, because they could not keep up and kept quiet as they needed their job and being labelled a whistleblower would end any job opportunities. Except in exceptional cases, I would not focus on the workers to much. If I was a diligent caring middle manager there, I would be wanting a full record of my emails to senior management telling them of the problems that need to be fixed and copies of directions to staff to fix things, otherwise your neck is in the noose.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

From Politico:



> Canadian military details horrific conditions in nursing homes battling Covid-19
> 
> Ontario Premier Doug Ford: "The reports they provided us were heartbreaking. They were horrific."
> 
> By MAURA FORREST
> 
> 05/26/2020 05:32 PM EDT
> 
> OTTAWA — A disturbing new report from the Canadian military paints a picture of severe neglect inside several of Ontario’s long-term care homes struggling with the Covid-19 pandemic, including observations of insect infestations, staffing shortages and patients being underfed and left in soiled diapers.
> 
> The report details insufficient staff training and inadequate protocols to stop the spread of the virus, with employees reusing personal protective equipment between residents and, in one home, residents with Covid-19 being allowed to wander through the facility.
> 
> The report, dated May 14, is based on the observations of Canadian Armed Forces personnel who were deployed to five hard-hit centers on April 28 to help provide medical care during the pandemic. It was made public on Tuesday by the Ontario government.
> 
> Ontario Premier Doug Ford vowed to fix the province’s “broken” long-term care system and said an investigation has begun into the military’s findings. “The reports they provided us were heartbreaking. They were horrific,” a visibly emotional Ford told reporters on Tuesday. “It’s shocking that this can happen here in Canada. It’s gut-wrenching. And reading those reports was the hardest thing I’ve done as premier.”
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he was made aware of the report’s existence on Friday and read it on Monday. “It is deeply disturbing. There are things in there that are extremely troubling,” he said during his daily briefing. “We need to do a better job of taking care of our elders in long-term care facilities.”
> 
> Trudeau said the federal government is “there to help” provinces as they address deficiencies in long-term care, which is a provincial responsibility. To date during the pandemic, Ottawa has deployed nearly 300 military personnel to Ontario care homes, and more than 1,500 to homes in Quebec. Public health officials have said roughly 80 percent of Canada’s Covid-19-related deaths are linked to long-term care homes. On Tuesday, Trudeau said Quebec and Ontario have each asked for the military assistance in care homes to be extended.
> 
> The military report includes observations of understaffing, poor sanitation, neglect of residents and employee burnout at five care homes in the Toronto area: Eatonville Care Centre, Hawthorne Place Care Centre, Orchard Villa, Altamont Care Community and Holland Christian — Grace Manor. Cockroach infestations were observed in two of the centers. There are multiple reports of residents with untreated bed sores due to prolonged bed rest.
> 
> In one facility, patients were observed crying for help with staff not responding for more than two hours. The report also notes serious hygiene problems, including patients being left in soiled diapers or on bare mattresses due to a lack of clean linen. At the Altamont Care Community, many residents had been bed-bound for several weeks when military personnel arrived, and there was “no evidence of residents being moved to wheelchair for parts of day, repositioned in bed, or washed properly.” Personnel at that facility also reported that residents were underfed — due to staff shortages, most residents were not getting three meals a day.
> 
> The report also documents abusive behavior toward residents, including “degrading or inappropriate comments directed at residents.” There are reports of “forceful feeding” and hydration of residents causing “audible choking.” In one instance at the Orchard Villa, residents were sometimes being fed while lying down, which seems to have contributed to one patient’s death by choking. Ford said the investigation of the care homes will include a coroner’s investigation and that results will be provided to police.
> 
> The report notes serious understaffing, high staff turnover and a lack of training of new employees, and warns that the well-being and morale of staff are at risk. “Many are overworked, seem burned out and have no time off (some have not seen their families for weeks),” reads the section pertaining to the Eatonville Care Center. Military members there also reported a “general culture of fear to use supplies because they cost money.”
> 
> The report cites a number of concerns around infection control within the care homes, with staff using the same personal protective equipment, including gloves, to treat multiple residents. Residents with Covid-19 were also reported to be rooming with those who had not tested positive.
> 
> Ford promised to “move heaven and earth” to fix a system he said has been “broken for decades.” But he also insisted the problem is not limited to his government, nor to his province, pointing out that Quebec is facing similar problems. “I take full accountability for the system that we inherited,” he said. “The buck stops with me, and I take ownership. I take full ownership of this.”
> 
> The Ontario government has promised an independent commission will look into the province’s nursing home sector, beginning in September, but has thus far stopped short of ordering a full public inquiry. On Tuesday, Ford said he’s “not ruling out anything after reading this.”
> 
> Since being deployed to long-term care homes in Ontario and Quebec, 36 military members have been diagnosed with Covid-19. To date, more than 6,600 people have died of the disease in Canada.



Link


----------



## Jarnhamar

I wonder why the report took 12 days to come to light.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder why the report took 12 days to come to light.



Having seen reports (similar to, but not exactly) like this written before, I'm pretty sure that they wanted to get it exactly right before issuing it, for obvious reasons.


----------



## BDTyre

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Full report will be released unredacted by Ontario government tomorrow. Absolutely sickening, and I hope there's criminal charges when warranted for the care workers right up to owners.



It's taking everything in me not to post those PDFs to Facebook now...


----------



## dangerboy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> It's taking everything in me not to post those PDFs to Facebook now...



You may as well, it is all over Facebook and other social media platforms now.


----------



## BDTyre

Fair point, and the entire report is being released tomorrow any way.


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Having seen reports (similar to, but not exactly) like this written before, I'm pretty sure that they wanted to get it exactly right before issuing it, for obvious reasons.



I'm not too sure I'm following. The CAF signed it off on the 14th but didn't staff it until last Friday?


----------



## blacktriangle

Well you probably would want to make sure everything is factual/verified, reviewed by lawyers etc...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Likely the military will come out of this in a very good light, being a professional and impartial observer/intervenor.


----------



## dapaterson

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure I'm following. The CAF signed it off on the 14th but didn't staff it until last Friday?



Note the routing: Signed on 14 May by BGen Mialkowski as Comd JTFC, to Comd CJOC (action), Comd CA and Surg Gen (info).  Within a week (including a long weekend) it would have gone through legal (probably both DND CAF LF and JAG), Medical (Surg Gen), to the CDS and then on to the Minister, then to the Minister of Public Security and the Prime Minister.


----------



## Ralph

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Note the routing: Signed on 14 May by BGen Mialkowski as Comd JTFC, to Comd CJOC (action), Comd CA and Surg Gen (info).  Within a week (including a long weekend) it would have gone through legal (probably both DND CAF LF and JAG), Medical (Surg Gen), to the CDS and then on to the Minister, then to the Minister of Public Security and the Prime Minister.


Almost like they followed a chain of command...


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Note the routing: Signed on 14 May by BGen Mialkowski as Comd JTFC, to Comd CJOC (action), Comd CA and Surg Gen (info).  Within a week (including a long weekend) it would have gone through legal (probably both DND CAF LF and JAG), Medical (Surg Gen), to the CDS and then on to the Minister, then to the Minister of Public Security and the Prime Minister.



That makes sense, thanks!


----------



## mariomike

Have not read the CAF report. But, from what I remember, nothing would surprise me.


----------



## Cloud Cover

This is the full report: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6928404/OP-LASER-JTFC-Observations-in-LTCF-in-On.pdf


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Have not read the CAF report. But, from what I remember, nothing would surprise me.



It’s exceedingly grim. There’s at least one blatant death due to acute negligence detailed.


----------



## CBH99

Wow...

After reading some media articles & some of the comments here about the reports, I knew it would be grim.  I just read them all more or less from start to finish.  Didn't expect it to be anywhere near THAT grim.

And this is where many of our parents and/or grandparents end up??  Do these staff members not also have parents living in similar facilities?



Bring the hammer down & rebuild the system from the top on down if need be.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

I didn’t anticipe to read something so grim when I clicked on the link.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Just out of curiosity, are the ACC teams not allowed to bring in some of the equipment and supplies noted, or are they restricted to just their own PPE on site?


----------



## blacktriangle

Disgusting. I was skeptical of the military going into these places, but after reading that report, it sounds like the military was exactly what was needed.

I'm glad our personnel are there now looking out for the residents. I hope their mental health is closely monitored now, and in the future. Sounds like a lot of trauma and moral issues to be faced there. I also hope that down the line, they are recognized and compensated for their difficult, operational work.


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:
			
		

> ... Bring the hammer down & rebuild the system from the top on down if need be.


... with said hammers hitting the top levels of the businesses and not just some chosen scapegoats further down the org charts.

In other news, this initial response from Queen's Park - highlights mine ...


> Since the outset of the COVID-19 global pandemic, the Ontario government has put the safety and security of our seniors as a top priority. The onset of COVID-19 has only exacerbated the already difficult situation in long-term care in the province.
> 
> Today (26 May), the Ontario government outlined key findings from the Canadian Armed Forces report on the five long-term care homes at which the military has been assisting. The report details serious concerns around infection prevention, safety, staffing and level of care. The report also indicates that these five homes are beginning to stabilize with the support of the armed forces.
> 
> "The health and safety of the residents and staff in our long-term care homes is our number one priority. It is clear the long-term care system in Ontario must be fixed," said Premier Ford. "The report from the Canadian Armed Forces on these five long-term care homes is extremely troubling. *Our government will take immediate action to investigate the concerns raised by the Canadian Armed Forces to ensure the safety of our residents in these five long-term care homes and in homes across the province."*
> 
> On April 22, the Ontario government formally requested assistance from the federal government in the form of the Canadian Armed Forces to support five long-term care homes that were in crisis. These homes were amongst the hardest hit in Ontario with COVID-19 outbreaks and had significant challenges that could not be rectified through various efforts. Those challenges included: staffing, infection prevention and control, resident safety, food preparation and janitorial services.
> 
> On May 10, the Canadian Armed Forces reported 15 out of 20 categories being in high-risk. As of May 25, based on the Canadian Armed Forces assessment, 13 of these 15 categories were no longer considered high-risk.
> 
> *The Ontario government is once again calling on the federal government and the Canadian Armed Forces to extend their current mission for at least an additional 30 days.*
> 
> "Thank you to the brave women and men in our Canadian Armed Forces who have helped immensely to stabilize our hardest hit long-term care homes," said Dr. Merrilee Fullerton, Minister of Long-Term Care. "We are continuing to take action to ensure our most vulnerable people living in our long-term care homes receive safe and quality care."
> 
> *The government has already begun an active investigation based on the Canadian Armed Forces report.* To date, one death has been referred to the Office of the Chief Coroner for investigation. In addition to continued regular inspections, the Ministry of Long-Term Care Inspections Branch will immediately investigate specific critical incidents referred to in the report.
> 
> In addition, *the government recently announced it will be launching an independent commission into Ontario's long-term care system beginning in September.* The government also continues to work with hospital partners to assist long-term care homes across the province with clinical, infection prevention and control, and other supports ...


----------



## mariomike

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Disgusting.



I probably felt shocked and appalled 48 years ago, first time I was sent into one of those places. 



			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I hope their mental health is closely monitored now, and in the future. Sounds like a lot of trauma and moral issues to be faced there. I also hope that down the line, they are recognized and compensated for their difficult, operational work.



I share your kind hopes,



			
				reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Are paramedics in Ontario not already fairly well-compensated?


----------



## PuckChaser

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I'm glad our personnel are there now looking out for the residents. I hope their mental health is closely monitored now, and in the future. Sounds like a lot of trauma and moral issues to be faced there. I also hope that down the line, they are recognized and compensated for their difficult, operational work.



"Veteran's Affairs Canada has determined your disability benefit application dated XX XX XXXX is not service connected and therefore not eligible for benefits."

Those Op LASER folks better get used to seeing that for the next few years...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Likely the military will come out of this in a very good light, being a professional and impartial observer/intervenor.



IIRC that no one will come out of this in a very good light, and I'm sure it's inevitable that we'll be receiving our fair share of criticism at some point ...


----------



## 211RadOp

A report on Quebec CHSDLs will be released today evidently.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-caf-military-report-1.5586408


----------



## MilEME09

The kicker is, this was not an over night problem, this has been systemic failures by multiple governments at the provincial level, but I feel we need a full inquiry to address the issues not only in long term care homes but how these and other facilities look after seniors. My wifes grandparents are in a home, and if the government announces any new funding going directly to seniors, suddenly the amount the care home charges increases by the same amount. It is absolute extortion, during all this covid lock down no one was coming to cut their hair or nails, most of them can't bend over to cut their own toe nails, some couldn't wear shoes because of how bad their nails got.

Seniors are neglected, and extorted for every dime they have across the country. Now that the CAF has brought this to the federal governments attention, I firmly believe that the feds need to look how bad it is all across Canada, and if new laws are needed to protect seniors then they need to be written quickly. No one should have to leave in the conditions described in the report during their golden years, or any time of their life.


----------



## The Bread Guy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> The kicker is, this was not an over night problem, this has been systemic failures by multiple governments at the provincial level, but I feel we need a full inquiry to address the issues not only in long term care homes but how these and other facilities look after seniors.


1000% - and like veterans' pensions, if there was an easy and relatively cheap solution, it would already have been done by someone, no matter what party.  That suggests to me it's hard and/or expensive to deal with.


			
				MilEME09 said:
			
		

> ... I firmly believe that the feds need to look how bad it is all across Canada, and if new laws are needed to protect seniors then they need to be written quickly ...


That would help, but that may be the tricky part, given provinces control health care (even though it's funded by the feds via transfers).  Still, some minimal standards may be able to be set, but if the guys above say standard x has to be met, the first question from the guys having to meet the standard is "how much we getting to reach that standard?"  Again, that'll be the case no matter what parties are involved federally & provincially.



			
				211RadOp said:
			
		

> A report on Quebec CHSDLs will be released today evidently.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-caf-military-report-1.5586408


And here it is in French, downloaded from the QC gov't page, so feel free to share if you like - here's the Google English version of one French-language media outlet's initial take.


----------



## Teager

The sad part is a lot of the complaints made have been made numerous times for years.

My wife is a nurse and has worked at LTC before working at the hospital. The one she worked at was way more upscale and more for the rich folks so things weren't near as bad. That being said staff was limited. A lot of times she would be the only nurse on hand for an entire floor of seniors being 30-40 people. Also it would be a good idea to regulate PSW's. You can walk in off the street and be hired. If it was regulated and required a proper training program with oversight body which some schools already offer but isn't  required then better practices would be put in place for those staff.

Now that just points to a small issue of many and obviously the greed of these private homes needs to change and staffing levels need to be increased with proper compensation for the job.

If LTC homes had a lot of the same oversight and rules that a hospital has in place for it's patients things would be a lot better but even hospitals need some work.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teager said:
			
		

> ... that just points to a small issue of many and obviously the greed of these private homes needs to change and staffing levels need to be increased with proper compensation for the job ...


That's part of it.  There have also been non-profit organizations who have trouble maintaining staffing and training levels, so another part of the solution is how much government is willing to pay for LTC.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Private home child care is adequately regulated; there are no compelling excuses for not properly regulating elder care.

As to funding, the same tension exists for both:

1. "We need to pay more for better child/elder care!"

2. "Child/elder care is too expensive!"


----------



## Teager

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> That's part of it.  There have also been non-profit organizations who have trouble maintaining staffing and training levels, so another part of the solution is how much government is willing to pay for LTC.



In terms of pay for a lot of government LTC homes the pay rates are way better than private most likely because they are unionized. Staff still lacks tho which would mean more $.


----------



## mariomike

Teager said:
			
		

> In terms of pay for a lot of government LTC homes the pay rates are way better than private most likely because they are unionized.





> CBC
> 
> May 24, 2020
> 
> Union launches nationwide appeal for long-term care reform in wake of COVID-19
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/union-launches-long-term-care-reform-campaign-covid-19-1.5582732
> Campaign calls for national standards of care and end to privately owned facilities


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teager said:
			
		

> ... Staff still lacks tho which would mean more $.


Yup - and less staff means those who are there are worked harder, the chances of mistakes increases and more potential staff turnover from burnout.  Lotsa threads to weave to find a solution.


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid19-ontario-gta-coronavirus-new-infections-1.5584693


COVID 19 in Ontario is largely a Toronto problem now.


----------



## Blackadder1916

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... with said hammers hitting *the top levels of the businesses* and not just some chosen scapegoats further down the org charts.



Light the torches and grab your pitchforks, we're going to run the monsters out from the village!  But before the mob is gathered in the town square, let's make sure we have the right monsters.

(_My apologizes for quoting from your post as a starting point, it is not meant to imply that your sentiment is in any way wrong. It was just conveniently the most appropriate when I started writing this, which took some time with concurrent research and my computer freezing up just as I was finishing the draft, though luckily was able to recover it.   Actually, I fully agree with it . . . but with caveats._)

Are all the LTC facilities identified in the report actually "businesses" in the sense that they are "for profit"?  Let's take a look.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/gut-wrenching-military-report-sheds-light-on-grim-conditions-in-ontario-nursing-homes-1.4954710?cache=yes%3FclipId%3D89619?autoPlay=true


> The homes included Orchard Villa in Pickering, Altamount Care Community in Scarborough, Eatonville Care Centre in Etobicoke, Hawthorne Place in North York and Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor in Brampton.



_There's no guarantee that the links I provide here will be be available after we light the torches and grab our pitchforks especially those that identify individuals in management and corporate governance positions.  If I was in management at any of these locations I would be quickly having that sort of information de-linked for the protection of staff.  And personal identifying information should not be repeated on this means._

Orchard Villa  https://www.orchardvilla.ca/   This one does seem to be a "for profit" and is just one of many locations belonging to Southbridge Care Homes.   Following their "About Us" link, it not only identifies the corporate leadership, it "boasts(?)" that one of their "partners" is Extendicare (Canada) Inc.


> To ensure our day-to-day quality of care is of the highest standard, we’ve chosen Extendicare (Canada) Inc., a recognized leader in quality, clinically-based services, to manage the operations of our homes, both before and after redevelopment. In the health care sector, Extendicare has become a sought-after provider of management, consulting, information technology and group purchasing services.



Altamount Care Community  https://www.siennaliving.ca/long-term-care/ontario/altamont-care-community  Part of another corporate entity Sienna Senior Living.  I didn't find mention of the CAF report on their "Uplifting News" link but their "Investors" link does say:


> Why invest in Sienna Senior Living?
> Sienna Senior Living Inc. is one of Canada's leading owners and operators of seniors’ residences with high quality assets in great locations. Listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange under TSX: SIA, Sienna pays an annualized dividend of $0.94 per share.



I might keep track of that stock to see how it does. Though, I don't see any mention about "care of residents" in the board's mandate https://www.siennaliving.ca/getmedia/8e58748f-272f-4f93-9841-5e017ae3a6bc/2020-02-19-Board-Mandate-Approved.pdf which was approved in February 2020.

The next two Eatonville Care Centre and Hawthorne Place don't identify what their business model is, but judging from the near identical format of their web presence I assume that they share an origin which (according to an earlier unrelated -sorta- CBC story) apparently is Rykka Care Centres, an operating partner of Responsive Management Inc.


> The Responsive Group is a privately owned business, consisting of four business units. Together, the units provide a comprehensive portfolio of services that includes management of retirement communities and long term care homes as well as consulting, mentoring and restructuring services. We currently operate 14 long term care homes and 18 retirement communities in Ontario, which in turn provide services for more than 2,300 long term care beds and over 1,000 retirement suites.



The final player in the Ontario report saga is Holland Christian Homes' Grace Manor.  http://www.hch.ca/


> Holland Christian Homes was established by a group of forward-thinking Christians who wanted to see their loved ones cared for in their senior years. In addition to their Christian faith, they shared common Dutch roots having come to settle in Canada–primarily after World War II.



It was listening to CBC Radio this morning that prompted me to look into the various corporate parents of these five LTC facilities, especially the not-for-profit Holland Christian Homes as the CBC had included comment from the daughter of a resident of Grace Manor in which she made mention of the bookending of her father's life having been a child in Holland during the war and the liberation by Canadian soldiers and then as he nears his final days the appreciation he had for Canadian soldiers coming into his facility to help improve conditions.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... (_My apologizes for quoting from your post as a starting point, it is not meant to imply that your sentiment is in any way wrong. It was just conveniently the most appropriate when I started writing this, which took some time with concurrent research and my computer freezing up just as I was finishing the draft, though luckily was able to recover it.   Actually, I fully agree with it . . . but with caveats._)...


No apologies needed - and well done on the hunting/digging/sharing.

One English-language media take on the QC situation:  _*"Military report on Quebec senior homes says conditions difficult but improving"*_


----------



## Blackadder1916

Sometimes, trying to be cute with an on-line identity can have a way of biting you on the ***.  This may be just such an occasion for Responsive Management Inc which own two of the LTC homes in the Ontario report.  On their website, someone had the brilliant idea to have thought bubbles above the heads of actual personnel that encapsulate some of their management thinking.  

https://responsivegroup.ca/thinking/

I've cropped the screen capture to remove the faces, but hopefully the person on the far right (your right) now regrets his choice of words.


----------



## blacktriangle

I wonder how long it will take for that one to come down, just wow.


----------



## Jarnhamar

* COVID-19 in Ontario is now primarily a Toronto-area problem, figures show*

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/covid-19-in-ontario-is-now-primarily-a-toronto-area-problem-figures-show/ar-BB14EXUR


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *US reaches 100,000 deaths*
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-updates-covid-19-cases-us-health-care/story?id=70897864
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-death-toll-100000-united-states/


----------



## Quirky




----------



## mariomike

Don't see a Covid-19 map for the GTA. But, Toronto released one.
https://www.google.com/search?q=covid-19+map+toronto&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiX0ITqx9XpAhVVRc0KHbGaAKwQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=covid-19+map+toronto&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQDDIGCAAQCBAeUOWuA1jMxwNgiu8DaABwAHgAgAHLC4gB5w6SAQc0LTEuNy0xmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=mSjPXtefItWKtQaxtYLgCg&bih=641&biw=1280

Looks like northwest and northeast Toronto, specifically northern Etobicoke, parts of North York and northern Scarborough were hit hardest.

Active COVID-19 Outbreaks in Toronto Retirement Homes and Hospitals, May 27 2020
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/8e7f-Toronto-Active-Institutional-Outbreaks-May-27-2020.pdf

Active COVID-19 Outbreaks in Shelters and Respite Sites
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/8e5b-Toronto-Active-Shelter-Outbreaks-May-27-2020.pdf

Are some populations disproportionately affected by COVID-19 in Toronto?
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/96e0-SDOHandCOVID19_Summary_2020May14.pdf


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm not sure what the connection is. Maybe just bad luck?

There was a few cases in NS that were just traces to a health care worker who was traveling for non essential stuff and wasn't careful.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the connection is. Maybe just bad luck?



Who knows?

I just know my little neighbourhood. Get my groceries delivered by Walmart, and the kids. Others probably know Metro much better than I do.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Sometimes, trying to be cute with an on-line identity can have a way of biting you on the ***.  This may be just such an occasion for Responsive Management Inc which own two of the LTC homes in the Ontario report.  On their website, someone had the brilliant idea to have thought bubbles above the heads of actual personnel that encapsulate some of their management thinking.
> 
> https://responsivegroup.ca/thinking/
> 
> I've cropped the screen capture to remove the faces, but hopefully the person on the far right (your right) now regrets his choice of words.


Good catch - and don't worry, further down, they seem to be promising to come up with new ideas eventually ...


----------



## Lumber

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Sometimes, trying to be cute with an on-line identity can have a way of biting you on the ***.  This may be just such an occasion for Responsive Management Inc which own two of the LTC homes in the Ontario report.  On their website, someone had the brilliant idea to have thought bubbles above the heads of actual personnel that encapsulate some of their management thinking.
> 
> https://responsivegroup.ca/thinking/
> 
> I've cropped the screen capture to remove the faces, but hopefully the person on the far right (your right) now regrets his choice of words.



lol. "Be all that you can be."  :rofl:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Lumber said:
			
		

> lol. "Be all that you can be."  :rofl:


Can't make this s**t up!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Well the good news is the virus appears to be slowly but surely burning itself out.

This is a great site for tracking the numbers:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Brazil is getting hammered still and that will continue.  Iran has experienced the second wave everyone has talked about.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Sometimes, trying to be cute with an on-line identity can have a way of biting you on the ***.  This may be just such an occasion for Responsive Management Inc which own two of the LTC homes in the Ontario report.  On their website, someone had the brilliant idea to have thought bubbles above the heads of actual personnel that encapsulate some of their management thinking.
> 
> https://responsivegroup.ca/thinking/
> 
> I've cropped the screen capture to remove the faces, but hopefully the person on the far right (your right) now regrets his choice of words.



I wonder which consulting company they 'partnered' with? 

BPOP.... haven't heard that one yet. Not sure what it stands for but seems 'innovative'.


----------



## PuckChaser

Well, we went from the WHO's 3.4-5% fatality rate data, down to the CDCs new fatality rate best estimate of 0.004%. Now that we know more, perhaps we can start opening the economy up and shift the resources away from Wage/Emergency benefits to medical care and protections for the vulnerable populations.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

Also on the heels of the LTC issues in Ontario, New York which has been devastated by COVID-19 was actually ordering nursing homes to take patients even if they were COVID-19 positive, effectively forcing the introduction of the virus into a facility.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/20/832034662/discharging-covid-19-patients-to-nursing-homes-called-a-recipe-for-disaster


----------



## Brash

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Iran has experienced the second wave everyone has talked about.
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/iran/


...or they ran more tests.
...or they altered their testing criteria.
...or they altered their diagnosis criteria.

Your assertion is a strong conclusion to draw from that graph alone.


----------



## AmmoTech90

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Well, we went from the WHO's 3.4-5% fatality rate data, down to the CDCs new fatality rate best estimate of 0.004%. Now that we know more, perhaps we can start opening the economy up and shift the resources away from Wage/Emergency benefits to medical care and protections for the vulnerable populations.



That is 0.004 people die for every 1 person showing symptoms.  So 4 people out of every 1000.  That makes it a 0.4% fatality rate.  Rather significant.


----------



## PuckChaser

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> That is 0.004 people die for every 1 person showing symptoms.  So 4 people out of every 1000.  That makes it a 0.4% fatality rate.  Rather significant.



4 times worse than flu, based on CDC 2018 estimates of symptomatic people vs influenza deaths.When you look at the age demographics, that rate drops pretty significantly to 2.5 per 1000 for 0 to 64. Annual Flu is about around 1 per 1000 and a lot of people don't even bother with a vaccination every year (1918 Flu was about 27 per 1000 in the US). At what point do we do some risk management and realize we can modify some processes and behaviours for the new environment we're in, but locking everyone down for a year or more until a vaccine is found (California) isn't sustainable? 

Ontario started Phase 1 on the 18th, had a bump in cases for 2 days (likely from Mother's Day) which was largely offset by recoveries. We're almost 14 days from that Phase 1 opening and we're not seeing massive spikes. In fact, they're only at 50% of their testing goal because people haven't been out anywhere and don't need tests.


----------



## Remius

Not sure anyone is talking about locking down for a year.  

We seem to be in a good spot for most of Ontario though. 

So yes, start opening in a phased approach like we are doing, isolate clusters and get businesses going as soon as possible.  I think that is what’ s happening here.


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder which consulting company they 'partnered' with?
> 
> BPOP.... haven't heard that one yet. Not sure what it stands for but seems 'innovative'.



BPOP - Blank Piece Of Paper


----------



## BDTyre

Well this explains why the 14 May report wasn't released until this week...
https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-caf-members-became-whistleblowers-after


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Well this explains why the 14 May report wasn't released until this week...
> https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-caf-members-became-whistleblowers-after



You KNOW that there had to be time consuming extensive checks to make sure that all the important things were nice and neat,........like no 'friendly' companies or ownership were going to get dirty.


----------



## BDTyre

Absolutely. I'm pretty sure it didn't just sit on someone's desk for the better part of a week before being forwarded to sit on someone else's desk.


----------



## blacktriangle

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> You KNOW that there had to be time consuming extensive checks to make sure that all the important things were nice and neat,........like no 'friendly' companies or ownership were going to get dirty.



You would probably want to make sure you or your friends didn't own any stock in the companies...and if you did, you'd probably want to sell before the report breaks, right? Hypothetically, of course.


----------



## The Bread Guy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Absolutely. I'm pretty sure it didn't just sit on someone's desk for the better part of a week before being forwarded to sit on someone else's desk.


 :nod:

A bit more from Ontario here ....


> ... The Ministry of Long-Term Care has deployed long-term care inspection teams to conduct comprehensive, detailed inspections at high-risk long-term care homes over the next 21 days. At the same time, the Ministry of Long-Term Care has started the process of appointing temporary management at Eatonville Care Centre, Hawthorne Place Care Centre, Altamont Care Community, Orchard Villa, and Camilla Care Community. Further, the recently announced independent commission into Ontario's long-term care system will now begin its work in July 2020.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Starting tomorrow (28 May), long-term care inspectors will be assessing six homes including those captured in the CAF reports and any reports previously filed regarding critical incidents in those homes. Six teams of two long-term care inspectors will go into each of the homes to do an expanded, stringent inspection process over a two-week period. The six homes being inspected include Eatonville Care Centre, Hawthorne Place Care Centre, Orchard Villa, Altamont Care Community, Camilla Care Community, and Holland Christian Homes Inc.
> 
> The teams will develop a customized inspection plan based on the details outlined in the CAF report. Their inspections will include record and chart reviews; in-depth interviews with staff and residents; and observations in order to determine the extent of the issues. The inspectors will follow a rigorous and consistent inspection methodology for all inspections.
> 
> After an inspection is completed in a high-risk home, the ministry will set up regular status calls, monitoring, as well as regular unannounced in-person follow up inspections with the home. Results of these and all other inspections will be posted publicly on the ministry website.
> 
> The government is also inspecting other long-term care homes that are currently considered high-risk over the next 21 days. Additionally, working with hospital and other partners, each of these homes will be required to submit a plan for the ministry that details how they intend to return to acceptable levels of care immediately.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Allegations such as the ones contained in the CAF report triggers the Ministry of Long-Term Care to share its findings with other agencies which may result in:
> 
> Police investigations and potential criminal charges
> Ministry of Labour inspections into worker health and safety, given the lack of training observed
> Public health inspections into food preparation, etc.
> Referrals to professional colleges for practice standard violations, given medication management and care observations ...



.... and here:


> ... the Ontario government announced today that it is extending the mandate of the Incident Management System Long-Term Care Table. This table is composed of health care professionals who make immediate decisions to deal with issues related to staffing levels, infection management and resources during the COVID-19 outbreak.
> 
> (...)
> 
> In April, an Incident Management System (IMS) structure was established to coordinate operational support to long-term care homes. The IMS table meets daily to organize efforts across multiple providers and government to make rapid decisions that support long-term care homes in need. Homes identified for support are those struggling to control outbreaks, complete infection prevention and control assessments, ensure appropriate staffing levels, have access to personal protective equipment (PPE), and complete the testing of all long-term care home residents and staff.
> 
> (...)


----------



## Blackadder1916

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> You would probably want to make sure you or your friends didn't own any stock in the companies...and if you did, you'd probably want to sell before the report breaks, right? Hypothetically, of course.



Or maybe you want to make sure that the government (or a government associated entity) isn't invested in that space.  It's not all wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more.  Sometimes appropriate due diligence (and legal necessity) contribute to what the public (and lower level, lesser peons in an organization) would like to pounce on as information being withheld.

It had already been publicized that Federal government pensions (including mine and yours) are already investing in the LTC space.  However, the major holding is in a company that was not associated with the CAF report on Ontario LTC facilities, but that's not to say deficiencies in some of their facilities hadn't already created controversy and blowback.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/crown-corporation-long-term-care-homes-revera-1.5584098



> One of Canada's largest long-term care operators is owned by a federal Crown corporation
> 
> CBC News · Posted: May 25, 2020 5:55 PM ET | Last Updated: May 26
> 
> One of the largest operators of seniors' residences and long-term care homes in Canada is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Public Sector Pension Investment Board (PSP), a federal Crown corporation charged with investing funds for the pension plans of the federal public service, the Canadian Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Reserve Force.
> 
> The company, Revera, owns or operates dozens of properties across Canada; it also has major holdings in the United States and the U.K., with a portfolio of seniors' apartments, assisted living and long-term care homes.
> 
> . . .



http://psacunion.ca/PSAC-long-term-care-revera


> PSAC calls on public service pension plan to pull out of the business of long-term care
> 
> May 26, 2020
> 
> PSAC National President Chris Aylward has called on Public Sector Pension Investments (PSP) to end its investment in Revera Inc. and instead put the second largest Canadian network of for-profit long-term facilities under public ownership and control.
> 
> Revera Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of PSP, which manages the investments of the pension plans of the federal public service, the Canadian Armed Forces, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Reserved Force. As the bargaining agent for members of the federal public service and federal agencies, PSAC represents a large proportion of the contributors and beneficiaries of federal public service plan.



Of some of the companies related to the Ontario report, their investment attractiveness had even been discussed up to the time of the report's release.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/retirees-3-pension-plan-approved-130046558.html


> Retirees: These 3 Pension Plan-Approved Stocks Are Gushing Cash
> 
> The Motley Fool February 17, 2020
> . . .
> Let’s take a closer look at three top investments favoured by the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan (OTPP), one of Canada’s largest pensions.
> . . .
> Sienna Senior Living
> OTPP is the owner of Baybridge Seniors Housing, which owns high-end retirement homes for wealthier Canadians. We can’t invest in that company, since OTPP bought it out years ago. So, we’re stuck investing in an alternative, which is Sienna Senior Living (TSX:SIA).
> 
> This alternative isn’t such a bad investment. Led by CEO Lois Cormack, Sienna is one of Canada’s leading owners and operators of housing for seniors. The portfolio is split between long-term care and retirement residences, with the former offering plenty of predictable cash flows (and high occupancy), while the latter represents a solid growth opportunity. Remember, there are some nine million Canadian baby boomers who are slowly getting older.
> 
> Sienna’s key markets — which include Toronto and Vancouver — are projected to need a significant uptick in new supply over the next decade. Sienna has plans to build a number of new homes, especially in Toronto, where demand is expected to be particularly be robust.
> 
> And finally, we can’t forget Sienna’s dividend. The stock pays 4.8% — a payout that should keep marching slowly higher over time.




https://www.fool.ca/2020/05/23/covid-19-investing-2-healthcare-stocks-to-hold-for-decades/


> COVID-19 Investing: 2 Healthcare Stocks to Hold for Decades
> Ambrose O'Callaghan | May 23, 2020
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic has been particularly dangerous to elderly populations across the globe. Over 80% of Canada’s COVID-19 fatalities have occurred in long-term care (LTC) facilities since the outbreak began. This has drawn criticism and calls for reform. Today, I want to look at two healthcare and real estate stocks that operate in this space. Let’s dive in.
> 
> Why you should target healthcare stocks in the LTC space
> All the way back in 2018, I’d discussed why investors should target stocks that are positioned to grow due to aging demographics. According to Statistics Canada, the senior population in this country will number over 9.5 million by 2030. This would represent roughly 23% of the total population.
> 
> . . .
> Below are two healthcare stocks that operate LTC facilities. Investors should consider this increased demand as we review these equities.
> 
> Sienna Senior Living
> Sienna Senior Living (TSX:SIA) is the first healthcare stock I want to focus on. It provides senior and long-term care services in Canada. Sienna’s shares have dropped 38% in 2020 as of early afternoon trading on May 22. The company released its first- quarter 2020 results on May 13 and provided an operations update.
> 
> Revenue increased 1.7% year over year to $166.4 million in Q1 2020. Meanwhile, adjusted funds from operations per share climbed 8.2% to $0.382 per share. Sienna has also worked to bolster its cash situation. As of March 31, 2020, the company saw its liquidity increase to $222.4 million compared to $144 million at December 31, 2019.
> 
> Shares of Sienna last had a favourable price-to-book value of 1.4. Moreover, the stock still offers a monthly dividend of $0.078 per share, which represents a monster 8.5% yield.
> 
> Extendicare
> Extendicare (TSX:EXE) is the other healthcare stock that interests me in the LTC space. The company also provides care and services for seniors in Canada. Its stock has plunged 27% in 2020 so far. Extendicare released its first-quarter 2020 results on May 14.
> 
> The company saw its revenue increase 2.3% year over year to $268.8 million. Extendicare saw a boost from LTC funding enhancements, COVID-19 funding, and growth in retirement living. Adjusted EBITDA rose $0.3 million from the prior year to $19.9 million.
> 
> The company has put together impressive earnings growth over the past year. Moreover, it has managed to maintain its hefty dividend in the face of the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> Shares of Extendicare had a favourable price-to-earnings ratio of 16 at the time of this writing. It last paid out a monthly dividend of $0.04 per share, representing a tasty 8.1% yield.
> 
> Both healthcare stocks are poised to post growth on the back of rising LTC demand in this decade. Better yet, these stocks also offer great monthly income.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... Of some of the companies related to the Ontario report, their investment attractiveness had even been discussed up to the time of the report's release ...


#EthicalInvesting, anyone?

Thanks, again, B1916, for the info-haul.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Revera owns the home where my Mother is and they have been awesome through all this right from the start.  Had my temperature taken, employees with PPE, 14 day quarantine for anyone leaving the building, long before it was required.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit more of the latest here ....


> Ottawa and Quebec have started talking about the future of military in long-term care homes after the province called for the Canadian Armed Forces to stay in nearly two dozen facilities until September.
> 
> Quebec Premier Francois Legault has asked the military to remain an additional four months so the province can hire and train thousands more workers to take over when the troops leave.
> 
> Yet the request has raised questions about the sustainability of keeping hundreds of trained military medical personnel in the homes for another four months — and what other options might be available.
> 
> Senior federal government officials who spoke the condition of anonymity to discuss ongoing talks say Ottawa is looking at whether the Canadian Red Cross can shoulder some of the burden and whether there are ways to speed up the hiring of workers in Quebec ...


... and here:


> ... Trudeau will face a challenging meeting with the country’s premiers as he broaches two topics that fall squarely within provincial jurisdiction: the operation of long-term care homes and paid sick leave for workers.
> 
> The issues are expected to be front and centre when he conducts his eleventh first ministers’ conference call.
> 
> The prime minister has promised federal support in both areas but his offer has met with a mixed reaction from provincial and territorial leaders.
> 
> (...)
> 
> On long-term care homes, (QC Premier Francois) Legault came close to suggesting the feds should butt out, apart from sending the provinces more money for health care in general which they could then spend as they see fit.
> 
> At the outset of the pandemic, the federal government did increase those transfers by $500 million.
> 
> In contrast to Legault, Ontario Premier Doug Ford, has been effusive in his thanks for the offer of federal help.
> 
> “The prime minister offered his full support and I am grateful for the prime minister’s commitment to working with us to solve this problem because we need their help if we’re going to fix this broken system,” he said Tuesday.
> 
> Ford too is calling for more federal funding but he’s gone beyond that. As far as he’s concerned, “everything is on the table,” including integrating long-term care homes into the public health system, which is delivered by the provinces but under the national principles of the Canada Health Act.
> 
> Trudeau was careful Wednesday not to wade into the debate over national standards or bringing long-term care homes under the auspices of the Canada Health Act. He repeatedly stressed that the federal government will respect provincial jurisdiction as it embarks on discussion with the premiers.


And on the Scrooge McDuck approach to seniors' care?  This from the Premier ....


> ... BNN Bloomberg reporter David George-Cosh asked Ford what investors in companies like Sienna Senior Living should expect. Sienna owns Altamont Care Community in Scarborough, Ont., one of the homes that the Canadian Armed Forces raised concerns about in its scathing report released Tuesday.
> 
> Fifty-two people have died of COVID-19 at Altamont as of Thursday afternoon. The military says it found residents were not being fed or bathed regularly in the home and that one resident alleged in a “disturbing” letter that they were being abused by a staff member.
> 
> Sienna made $669.7 million in revenue last year.
> 
> “Should these investors expect these big publicly traded companies to sacrifice profit for quality of care?” George-Cosh asked Ford.
> 
> “What they should be doing is doing their job. Protecting the seniors,” the premier replied.
> 
> “You want to invest in a company? Make sure the company is run well … These homes, specifically the ones that Canadian Armed Forces [are] in, they failed.”
> 
> He said shareholders should focus on holding their CEO and chair accountable for what has happened during the pandemic.
> 
> Later in the press conference, another reporter asked Ford what the province can do to improve care in privately operated long-term care homes.
> 
> “Number one, we can pull their licence. Then they won’t have to have a home to worry about,” he said.
> 
> “We’ll be holding people accountable. Because it’s not about money. It’s about taking care of people ... And if they want to be greedy and make money, then get out of the business. Go find something else to do. Don’t put people’s lives in jeopardy.”


----------



## ModlrMike

A failure of leadership from both parties. The PM sold out parliament with a promise someone else has to deliver, and the NDP bought it. What happens when the Premieres quite rightly assert their constitutional authority?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Just imagine what kind of shady conditions the PM will push on the premiers to get his help.


----------



## lenaitch

> On long-term care homes, (QC Premier Francois) Legault came close to suggesting the feds should butt out, apart from sending the provinces more money for health care in general which they could then spend as they see fit.



That is the go-to Quebec response whenever that is talk about national standards or commonality.  Give us the money then bugger off.  We will spend the money on something kinda sorta related to what the money was intended for.


----------



## Jarnhamar

https://www.lapresse.ca/covid-19/2020-05-28/francois-legault-le-quebec-paie-sa-part-pour-l-armee

Québecs getting antsy that the government isn't jumping at the request to keep soldiers there until 15 September working 7 days a week.

Toronto has 6 million people. Not sure where the 20+ homes are in Quebec but province has 8 and a half million people.

How hard is it to find decent people to work in these homes?
If they weren't interested in working in them before why do we expect to all of a sudden attract 10,000 people to these jobs?


----------



## daftandbarmy

The long-term care crisis: How B.C. controlled COVID-19 while Ontario, Quebec face disaster

As COVID-19 continues to sweep through long-term care facilities, Ontario and Quebec are struggling hard to contain outbreaks — while British Columbia and other provinces have managed to keep infections under control.

Experts say that's because B.C. took swift, coordinated and decisive actions to stop the transmission of the virus, such as providing adequate protective gear and financially supporting front-line staff to restrict their movement between sites.

There have been 111 deaths in long-term care homes in B.C., compared to more than 2,500 in Quebec and 1,500 in Ontario.

This week, the military issued separate reports on the conditions inside 30 homes in Quebec and Ontario where more than 1,600 Canadian Armed Forces members have been deployed to assist in the crisis.

In five Ontario long-term care homes, the military reported incidents of neglect, aggressive treatment toward residents and cases of residents being improperly fed, left in soiled clothing or going unbathed for weeks. There were also reports of insect infestation and the smell of rotting food.

The situation appears less dire in the 25 homes where the military is deployed in Quebec — yet even there the military reported improper use of protective equipment and staffing shortages.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/long-term-care-crisis-covid19-pandemic-1.5589097


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Toronto has 6 million people.



If Halton, Peel, York, and Durham are included.


----------



## ueo

PQ govt seems to have the opinion that the CF is a replacement (Free) for their past and ongoing omissions. IMO withdraw these  folks nlt 01 Jul, and send the province a bill for their wages etc. Do not pander to the provinces (Ontario included) through giving them more of MY tax dollars. Loans- maybe, but not outright gifts. Expect some "taking responsibility" and bearing the decisions that allowed/perpetuated the short falls on the provincial and municipal govts whom have allowed the abuses to go on far to long. Federal guidelines- maybe, provincial hard cap standards with inspections and enforced consequences definitely and make these applicable to all operators, especially those who give themselves massive dividends during times of this nature. Rant over!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How hard is it to find decent people to work in these homes?
> If they weren't interested in working in them before why do we expect to all of a sudden attract 10,000 people to these jobs?


Good question - and not just in Quebec ...


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How hard is it to find decent people to work in these homes?



If I recall correctly, there was recent similar discussion up-thread about how hard it is these days to find good farm help.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, there was recent similar discussion up-thread about how hard it is these days to find good farm help.



Unlike seasonal farm labour, working in Long Term Care homes actually pays decent money though. I'm not sure why more people don't work there ... it may be the education and background check requirements that are an impediment? 

When all this started, someone in this thread mentioned these homes need workers so I looked it up to see if I could pick up some casual extra hours while my day job has been slowed down by court closures. Found some interesting prospects within a bike ride of my house, but I couldn't apply because I don't have the government certifications required and there's no way to get them in the current situation.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Unlike seasonal farm labour, working in Long Term Care homes actually pays decent money though. I'm not sure why more people don't work there ... it may be the education and background check requirements that are an impediment?
> 
> When all this started, someone in this thread mentioned these homes need workers so I looked it up to see if I could pick up some casual extra hours while my day job has been slowed down by court closures. Found some interesting prospects within a bike ride of my house, but I couldn't apply because I don't have the government certifications required and there's no way to get them in the current situation.



If you DAG Green for OP LASER, you will


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How hard is it to find decent people to work in these homes?
> If they weren't interested in working in them before why do we expect to all of a sudden attract 10,000 people to these jobs?



Here's my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
Not many people want to work in long term care facilities - it has to be a stressful place to work. And not everyone is well equipped physically or mentally to work in sucha place.

My second point may pi$$ some of you off but here goes:

Many Canadians feel those jobs are beneath them and only want jobs that pay big $ and 5 weeks vacation a year. And won't take those "menial jobs" that foreign workers are brought in to do.


----------



## dapaterson

By "decent money", you mean the $21/hour for Registered Practical Nurses?  Who get offered under 30 hours per week to avoid the employer having to pay benefits?  That's $32K annually, no benefits, irregular hours.  Which is why many RPNs (and PSWs) juggle multiple jobs in multiple places, since they can't make an effective living based on one almost full-time job.

Of course, to become an RPN you'll need to take a two year academic program (pay your own way, plus living expenses).  You are required to maintain professional registration as a condition of work; that registration requires you complete ongoing professional development (which you will generally pay for yourself).


----------



## mariomike

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Unlike seasonal farm labour, working in Long Term Care homes actually pays decent money though. I'm not sure why more people don't work there ... it may be the education and background check requirements that are an impediment?
> 
> When all this started, someone in this thread mentioned these homes need workers so I looked it up to see if I could pick up some casual extra hours while my day job has been slowed down by court closures. Found some interesting prospects within a bike ride of my house, but I couldn't apply because I don't have the government certifications required and there's no way to get them in the current situation.



Never worked in one. But, spent decades being sent into them. You see and hear things. 

I remember female staff ( almost all were women of colour ) tolerating a work environment of physical, verbal, racial and even sexual aggression from residents and family members.  

That was me. YMMV


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> By "decent money", you mean the $21/hour for Registered Practical Nurses?  Who get offered under 30 hours per week to avoid the employer having to pay benefits?  That's $32K annually, no benefits, irregular hours.  Which is why many RPNs (and PSWs) juggle multiple jobs in multiple places, since they can't make an effective living based on one almost full-time job.
> 
> Of course, to become an RPN you'll need to take a two year academic program (pay your own way, plus living expenses).  You are required to maintain professional registration as a condition of work; that registration requires you complete ongoing professional development (which you will generally pay for yourself).



Very good point aout employers not paying for benefits. It seems the bottom line is the only line that counts. 

And its not inexpensive living at these homes. From what I gather is any monthly income you have, the home gets it. I could be wrong and if I am I will stand corrected.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Here's my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
> Not many people want to work in long term care facilities - it has to be a stressful place to work. And not everyone is well equipped physically or mentally to work in sucha place.
> 
> My second point may pi$$ some of you off but here goes:
> 
> Many Canadians feel those jobs are beneath them and only want jobs that pay big $ and 5 weeks vacation a year. And won't take those "menial jobs" that foreign workers are brought in to do.



I'll be honest with you, I couldn't do that kind of work. It takes someone pretty special to take care of someone, waiting for them to, inevitably, die. I have huge respect for them, much as I do hospice workers, paliative care, and especially NICU nurses.  I'm not strong enough to do that day after day, and I know it.


----------



## Remius

Target Up said:
			
		

> I'll be honest with you, I couldn't do that kind of work. It takes someone pretty special to take care of someone, waiting for them to, inevitably, die. I have huge respect for them, much as I do hospice workers, paliative care, and especially NICU nurses.  I'm not strong enough to do that day after day, and I know it.



I’ll be even more honest.  I don’t want to change diapers, clean up vomit and other people’s bodily fluids for a living.  I volunteered in a long term care home a long time ago for a year when I was in my teens.  I didn’t do those things then but I saw the ones that did and decided that it wasn’t something I wanted to do. 

It wasn’t a question of the job being menial.  I’ve done ‘menial’ work before.  Some of it I enjoyed but I found myself going to get a different career path.  

A few jobs I have done set me up to know what I didn’t  want to do.

That being said, if I was unemployed and with no other prospects it is something I would at least try.  A job is a job. Being unemployed sucks.


----------



## dapaterson

Now, if I remember the movie, somewhere around now Bruce WIllis travels back in time to meet Brad Pitt.

Monkeys 'escape with COVID-19 samples' after attacking lab assistant


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> By "decent money", you mean the $21/hour for Registered Practical Nurses?  Who get offered under 30 hours per week to avoid the employer having to pay benefits? ...


... or has to work at 2-3 facilities to manage a total of something close to full time - again without benefits because they're casual in all the facilities.


----------



## Remius

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... or has to work at 2-3 facilities to manage a total of something close to full time - again without benefits because they're casual in all the facilities.



You both nailed what a large part of the problem is.


----------



## Teager

Here in Ontario $21/hr for RPN is pretty bottom of the bucket pay majority of places pay between $23-$27/hr. Weekends and nights usually get an extra $1 or so. If your a nurse with more experience that you can prove you can also get paid a bit more for that. If you work as an RPN for a muncipalty or government run home your looking at $29-$31 an hour which is the same as what hospitals pay RPNs. 

Now due to shortages and nurses calling in sick even part time can easily get full time hours. The places that are unionized do have more benefits for the part timers but still not up to full time benefits.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teager said:
			
		

> Here in Ontario $21/hr for RPN is pretty bottom of the bucket pay majority of places pay between $23-$27/hr. Weekends and nights usually get an extra $1 or so. If your a nurse with more experience that you can prove you can also get paid a bit more for that. If you work as an RPN for a muncipalty or government run home your looking at $29-$31 an hour which is the same as what hospitals pay RPNs.
> 
> Now due to shortages and nurses calling in sick even part time can easily get full time hours. The places that are unionized do have more benefits for the part timers but still not up to full time benefits.


RNs and RPNs are only part of the equation, though.

How about all the Personal Support Workers (PSW's) in the system, about 1/2 of whom make less than ~$19/hour in Toronto (I can't find stats on how much they make elsewhere in Ontario, and I stand to be corrected, but I suspect rates'll be lower in smaller centres outside The Big Smoke)?  

According to one source***, _"As of 2013, frontline staff at long-term care homes consisted of 9.5% registered nurses (RNs), 18.4% Registered Practical Nurses (RPNs), and *72.1% personal support workers (PSWs)*."_

I suspect that while there's burnout at all levels, the PSW's are the ones who may face more lack-of-enough-face-to-face-time-because-of-staffing-numbers issues.

*** - The organization represents for-profit, non-profit, charitable and municipally-run facilities.


----------



## blacktriangle

I wonder how the situation would be if the system was run by government, offered full time work with benefits, and we paid a PSW with 4 years experience similar to how we pay a Cpl. Obviously more expensive, but money talks.


----------



## mariomike

Nothing new, as far as I am concerned. Staffing was at a crisis level even back in my day. 

But, if I may offer a few suggestions from being sent into every long term care and nursing home in Toronto over just shy of 37 years. 

I've been retired for a long time. But, it doesn't sound like things have improved much, if at all. The system was broken long before Covid-19, in my opinion.

Precarious part-time jobs meant they had to work at two or more places, just to make ends meet. 

The situation was especially bad a private care homes. 

Staff should have access to PPE to keep themselves, and their families, safe.

Since most are women, they should have access to child care.

And laundry services. So they don't have to bring contaminated clothing home. I never brought my uniform home.


----------



## Blackadder1916

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> I wonder how the situation would be if the system was run by government, offered full time work with benefits, and we paid a PSW with 4 years experience similar to how we pay a Cpl. Obviously more expensive, but money talks.



Let's take a look at the funding for LTC in Ontario.

Long-Term Care Homes Level-of-Care Per Diem, Occupancy and AcuityAdjustment Funding Policy  (for the HCA wonks  :not-again
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ltc/docs/level_of_care_per_diem_funding_policy.pdf

Or a quicker view.

https://www.oltca.com/oltca/OLTCA/Public/LongTermCare/FactsFigures.aspx


> Residents pay a portion of long-term care
> Long-term care is part of the province%u2019s health care system and publicly funded on a cost-shared basis with residents. The government does not pay the full cost of long-term care and expects residents to pay a portion of their %u201Croom and board%u201D to the long-term care home. This %u201Croom and board%u201D payment is what long-term care homes use to make a return on their investment. Funding allocated by the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for nursing and personal care, programs, support services, or raw food (used to make meals) is separate and must be reconciled at the end of the year. Unspent funds are returned to the government.
> 
> Provincial funding for long-term care in 2018:
> $4.28 billion (7% of the overall provincial health budget)
> $149.95 per resident, per day ($54,730 per year)
> Approximately $100.91 per day for nursing and personal care (such as assistance with personal hygiene, bathing, eating, and toileting)
> $12.06 per day for specialized therapies, recreational programs, and support services
> $9.54 per day for raw food (ingredients used to prepare meals)



What are residents suppose to get for that $149.95 a day.  Here's what the regulations to the Long-Term Care Homes Act, 2007 says https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/r10079#BK38


> . . .
> 
> Personal care
> 32. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home receives individualized personal care, including hygiene care and grooming, on a daily basis.
> 
> Bathing
> 33. (1) Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home is bathed, at a minimum, twice a week by the method of his or her choice and more frequently as determined by the resident%u2019s hygiene requirements, unless contraindicated by a medical condition.
> 
> (2) For the purposes of this section, %u201Cbathing%u201D includes tub baths, showers, and full body sponge baths.
> 
> Oral care
> 34. (1) Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home receives oral care to maintain the integrity of the oral tissue that includes,
> 
> (a) mouth care in the morning and evening, including the cleaning of dentures;
> 
> (b) physical assistance or cuing to help a resident who cannot, for any reason, brush his or her own teeth; and
> 
> (c) an offer of an annual dental assessment and other preventive dental services, subject to payment being authorized by the resident or the resident%u2019s substitute decision-maker, if payment is required.
> 
> (2) The licensee shall ensure that each resident receives assistance, if required, to insert dentures prior to meals and at any other time as requested by the resident or required by the resident%u2019s plan of care.
> 
> Foot care and nail care
> 35. (1) Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home receives preventive and basic foot care services, including the cutting of toenails, to ensure comfort and prevent infection.
> 
> (2) Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home receives fingernail care, including the cutting of fingernails.
> 
> Transferring and positioning techniques
> 36. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that staff use safe transferring and positioning devices or techniques when assisting residents.
> 
> Personal items and personal aids
> 37. (1) Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home has his or her personal items, including personal aids such as dentures, glasses and hearing aids,
> 
> (a) labelled within 48 hours of admission and of acquiring, in the case of new items; and
> 
> (b) cleaned as required.
> 
> (2) The licensee shall ensure that each resident receives assistance, if required, to use personal aids.
> 
> Notification re personal belongings, etc.
> 38. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that a resident or the resident%u2019s substitute decision-maker is notified when,
> 
> (a) the resident%u2019s personal aids or equipment are not in good working order or require repair; or
> 
> (b) the resident requires new personal belongings.
> 
> Mobility devices
> 39. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that mobility devices, including wheelchairs, walkers and canes, are available at all times to residents who require them on a short-term basis.
> 
> Dress
> 40. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home is assisted with getting dressed as required, and is dressed appropriately, suitable to the time of day and in keeping with his or her preferences, in his or her own clean clothing and in appropriate clean footwear.
> 
> Bedtime and rest routines
> 41. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that each resident of the home has his or her desired bedtime and rest routines supported and individualized to promote comfort, rest and sleep.
> 
> End-of-life care
> 42. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that every resident receives end-of-life care when required in a manner that meets their needs.
> 
> Communication methods
> 43. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that strategies are developed and implemented to meet the needs of residents with compromised communication and verbalization skills, of residents with cognitive impairment and of residents who cannot communicate in the language or languages used in the home.
> 
> Availability of supplies
> 44. Every licensee of a long-term care home shall ensure that supplies, equipment and devices are readily available at the home to meet the nursing and personal care needs of residents.
> 
> 24-hour nursing care %u2014 exceptions
> 45. (1) The following are the exceptions to the requirement that at least one registered nurse who is both an employee of the licensee and a member of the regular nursing staff of the home is on duty and present in the home at all times, as required under subsection 8 (3) of the Act:
> 
> 1. For homes with a licensed bed capacity of 64 beds or fewer,
> 
> i. a registered nurse who works at the home pursuant to a contract or agreement between the nurse and the licensee and who is a member of the regular nursing staff may be used,
> 
> ii. in the case of an emergency where the back-up plan referred to in clause 31 (3) (d) of this Regulation fails to ensure that the requirement under subsection 8 (3) of the Act is met,
> 
> A. a registered nurse who works at the home pursuant to a contract or agreement between the licensee and an employment agency or other third party may be used if the Director of Nursing and Personal Care or a registered nurse who is both an employee of the licensee and a member of the regular nursing staff is available by telephone, or
> 
> B. a registered practical nurse who is a member of the regular nursing staff may be used if the Director of Nursing and Personal Care or a registered nurse who is both an employee of the licensee and a member of the regular nursing staff is available by telephone.
> 
> 2. For homes with a licensed bed capacity of more than 64 beds and fewer than 129 beds,
> 
> i. in the case of a planned or extended leave of absence of an employee of the licensee who is a registered nurse and a member of the regular nursing staff, a registered nurse who works at the home pursuant to a contract or agreement with the licensee and who is a member of the regular nursing staff may be used,
> 
> ii. in the case of an emergency where the back-up plan referred to in clause 31 (3) (d) of this Regulation fails to ensure that the requirement under subsection 8 (3) of the Act is met, a registered nurse who works at the home pursuant to a contract or agreement between the licensee and an employment agency or other third party may be used if,
> 
> A. the Director of Nursing and Personal Care or a registered nurse who is both an employee of the licensee and a member of the regular nursing staff is available by telephone, and
> 
> B. a registered practical nurse who is both an employee of the licensee and a member of the regular nursing staff is on duty and present in the home.



It's not just paying employees a better wage that will solve the problems.  My take (from experience and reading between the lines of the report) is that many LTC homes are chronically understaffed - not because they can't get people to fill vacancies but that they do not authorize enough staff for the workload.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Quebec says 41 students and staff have tested positive for COVID-19 since reopening*
> 
> More than 40 staff and students tested positive for COVID-19 in the first two weeks after elementary schools outside the Montreal area opened on May 11, Quebec's Education Department confirmed Friday.
> 
> A survey of school boards conducted May 25 found that 19 students and 22 staff members were found to be infected in the first two weeks following the reopening.
> 
> The survey is lacking numbers from 12 of the province's 72 school boards, which did not provide data to the province.
> 
> Meanwhile, Quebec passed the 50,000-case mark on Friday as the province reported 530 new cases and 61 additional deaths.
> 
> 
> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-says-41-students-and-staff-have-tested-positive-for-covid-19-since-reopening-1.4960628


----------



## ModlrMike

What a dumptser fire!


----------



## PuckChaser

41 students and staff out of how many tests? Out of how many total staff and students for the boards reporting data? 41 at my kid's elementary school of 860 is high, but 60 full school boards and staff is quite a few people and seemingly a very low rate of infection.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> 41 students and staff out of how many tests? Out of how many total staff and students for the boards reporting data? 41 at my kid's elementary school of 860 is high, but 60 full school boards and staff is quite a few people and seemingly a very low rate of infection.



I suspect they are only testing people with symptoms.  Asymptomatic types are likely still walking the halls.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... What are residents suppose to get for that $149.95 a day ...


Actually, if you take away the raw food cost, more like ~$140/day for all the staffing & support.


			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ... My take (from experience and reading between the lines of the report) is that many LTC homes are chronically understaffed - not because they can't get people to fill vacancies but that they do not authorize enough staff for the workload.


 :nod:


----------



## daftandbarmy

It's OK, Victoria doesn't need anymore money. We already have enough double sized bike lanes and rainbow cross walks, which will all be empty this summer:

Cruise ship ban extended, effectively scuttling season in Greater Victoria

The cruise-ship season that was forecast to bring more than three quarters of a million passengers to Victoria’s shores — and an estimated $130 million in economic activity — has been scuttled.

Everyone from street vendors to restaurants, retailers, transportation companies and suppliers is expected to feel the financial blow.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/cruise-ship-ban-extended-effectively-scuttling-season-in-greater-victoria-1.24143481


----------



## Ralph

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> 41 students and staff out of how many tests? Out of how many total staff and students for the boards reporting data? 41 at my kid's elementary school of 860 is high, but 60 full school boards and staff is quite a few people and seemingly a very low rate of infection.



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-more-than-40-covid-19-cases-identified-in-quebec-schools-since/
About half of more than 200,000 eligible children have gone back to school in the province.


----------



## Gunplumber

Are there any SOPs I should be looking for when it comes to being sent back to work? I have been ordered back to work on Wednesday and just want to know what I should look out for.


----------



## Remius

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Are there any SOPs I should be looking for when it comes to being sent back to work? I have been ordered back to work on Wednesday and just want to know what I should look out for.



What worries me is that you haven’t been sent any SOPs at all...


----------



## Gunplumber

Thats what I was thinking, especially as my co-worker will be going back at the same time and we are both in a 20 by 20 room.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Are there any SOPs I should be looking for when it comes to being sent back to work? I have been ordered back to work on Wednesday and just want to know what I should look out for.



Worksafe BC has a ton of information online and, I assume, other provinces do as well: https://www.worksafebc.com/en/about-us/covid-19-updates/covid-19-returning-safe-operation


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Cruise ship ban extended, effectively scuttling season in Greater Victoria



Good. Sucks for the economy, but the longer the Pollution of the Seas's stay docked in home port the better. Those things are way harmful to local waters than any bike lane can offset.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:
			
		

> Good. Sucks for the economy, but the longer the Pollution of the Seas's stay docked in home port the better. Those things are way harmful to local waters than any bike lane can offset.



Good point. Who needs $130 million a year pumped into the local economy of a fairly small, tourism dependent town  :sarcasm:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Sucks for the economy, but the longer the Pollution of the Seas's stay docked in home port the better.



So basically 

Old people   <   economy   <   climate change?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It's OK, Victoria doesn't need anymore money. We already have enough double sized bike lanes and rainbow cross walks, which will all be empty this summer:
> 
> Cruise ship ban extended, effectively scuttling season in Greater Victoria
> 
> The cruise-ship season that was forecast to bring more than three quarters of a million passengers to Victoria’s shores — and an estimated $130 million in economic activity — has been scuttled.
> 
> Everyone from street vendors to restaurants, retailers, transportation companies and suppliers is expected to feel the financial blow.
> 
> https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/cruise-ship-ban-extended-effectively-scuttling-season-in-greater-victoria-1.24143481



They of course want a big handout.  The irony that these same people would probably moan and complain if handouts were given to other industries like Mining, Oil & Gas, etc.

Tourism is a highly cyclical industry that is tied to the business cycle and this can be impacted by recession, war, famine, plague, natural disasters, etc.  Just another example that we are not immune to this in Canada either. 

Things can be rebuilt, including businesses.  Let's see where the chips fall.  Adapt and survive.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Things can be rebuilt, including businesses.  Let's see where the chips fall.  Adapt and survive.



Yep.  Some businesses will have to change their business models to survive.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> Yep.  Some businesses will have to change their business models to survive.



Also, it may not seem like it now but things will be rebuilt:







Tokyo End of WW2 vs Tokyo Now.  All about perspective.  We are bunkered down right now but we are fighting a delaying operation right now and gathering our strength IOT resume offensive operations on Project Humanity!


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Tokyo End of WW2 vs Tokyo Now.



Usually see that attached to  Detroit End of WW2 vs Detroit Now.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So basically
> 
> Old people   <   economy   <   climate change?



Oh I could care less about climate change overall. Cruise ships are floating environmental disasters that can stay in port forever. Old people will have to find another way to entertain themselves. 



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Good point. Who needs $130 million a year pumped into the local economy of a fairly small, tourism dependent town



Maybe they should look at other forms of revenue, Albertas entire economy will have to, Victoria can figure out a way to offset a few cruise ships.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:
			
		

> Yep.  Some businesses will have to change their business models to survive.




Like big government, which will need to prune the overhead costs significantly.


----------



## Remius

No doubt. 

Things are already not the same.  To be honest a new contract between government and all of its operations and human assets will need to be reviewed and acted on.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:
			
		

> Oh I could care less about climate change overall. Cruise ships are floating environmental disasters that can stay in port forever. Old people will have to find another way to entertain themselves.


Or make cruise ships into floating longterm care facilities so seniors can live out the rest of their days in luxury with a nice view.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or make cruise ships into floating longterm care facilities so seniors can live out the rest of their days in luxury with a nice view.



https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk029L-z1Fejl-OqLDbkwRmDJS96rEw%3A1590859052119&source=hp&ei=LJXSXoKxBceaa82Ti-gF&q=cruise+ship+cheaper+than+retirement+home&oq=cruise+ship&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgQIIxAnMgQIABBDMggIABCDARCRAjIFCAAQkQIyBAgAEEMyBAgAEEMyBAgAEEMyBAgAEEMyAggAMgIIADoHCAAQgwEQQzoHCCMQsQIQJzoECAAQClCfC1joSWDgWWgEcAB4AIABmAKIAeEWkgEGMC4yLjExmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab#spf=1590859065524


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or make cruise ships into floating longterm care facilities so seniors can live out the rest of their days in luxury with a nice view.



Does each of those ships have a girls' school which has Panzer fighting as an extra curricular activity?











https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls_und_Panzer

 ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or make cruise ships into floating longterm care facilities so seniors can live out the rest of their days in luxury with a nice view.



Because cruise ships have such a wonderful track record with no 'mini-pandemic like' disease outbreaks?   :sarcasm:

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/pub/norovirus/norovirus.htm


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Because cruise ships have such a wonderful track record with no 'mini-pandemic like' disease outbreaks?   :sarcasm:
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/pub/norovirus/norovirus.htm



Who cares? They're old folks.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Interested to see how this develops with further research.

 Coronavirus May Be a Blood Vessel Disease...



> In April, blood clots emerged as one of the many mysterious symptoms attributed to Covid-19, a disease that had initially been thought to largely affect the lungs in the form of pneumonia. Quickly after came reports of young people dying due to coronavirus-related strokes. Next it was Covid toes — painful red or purple digits.
> 
> What do all of these symptoms have in common? An impairment in blood circulation. Add in the fact that 40% of deaths from Covid-19 are related to cardiovascular complications, and the disease starts to look like a vascular infection instead of a purely respiratory one.
> 
> Months into the pandemic, there is now a growing body of evidence to support the theory that the novel coronavirus can infect blood vessels, which could explain not only the high prevalence of blood clots, strokes, and heart attacks, but also provide an answer for the diverse set of head-to-toe symptoms that have emerged.
> 
> “All these Covid-associated complications were a mystery. We see blood clotting, we see kidney damage, we see inflammation of the heart, we see stroke, we see encephalitis [swelling of the brain],” says William Li, MD, president of the Angiogenesis Foundation. “A whole myriad of seemingly unconnected phenomena that you do not normally see with SARS or H1N1 or, frankly, most infectious diseases.”
> 
> “If you start to put all of the data together that’s emerging, it turns out that this virus is probably a vasculotropic virus, meaning that it affects the [blood vessels],” says Mandeep Mehra, MD, medical director of the Brigham and Women’s Hospital Heart and Vascular Center.
> 
> In a paper published in April in the scientific journal The Lancet, Mehra and a team of scientists discovered that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can infect the endothelial cells that line the inside of blood vessels. Endothelial cells protect the cardiovascular system, and they release proteins that influence everything from blood clotting to the immune response. In the paper, the scientists showed damage to endothelial cells in the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver, and intestines in people with Covid-19.
> 
> “The concept that’s emerging is that this is not a respiratory illness alone, this is a respiratory illness to start with, but it is actually a vascular illness that kills people through its involvement of the vasculature,” says Mehra.
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 is thought to enter the body through ACE2 receptors present on the surface of cells that line the respiratory tract in the nose and throat. Once in the lungs, the virus appears to move from the alveoli, the air sacs in the lung, into the blood vessels, which are also rich in ACE2 receptors.
> 
> “[The virus] enters the lung, it destroys the lung tissue, and people start coughing. The destruction of the lung tissue breaks open some blood vessels,” Mehra explains. “Then it starts to infect endothelial cell after endothelial cell, creates a local immune response, and inflames the endothelium.”
> 
> A respiratory virus infecting blood cells and circulating through the body is virtually unheard of. Influenza viruses like H1N1 are not known to do this, and the original SARS virus, a sister coronavirus to the current infection, did not spread past the lung. Other types of viruses, such as Ebola or Dengue, can damage endothelial cells, but they are very different from viruses that typically infect the lungs.
> 
> Benhur Lee, MD, a professor of microbiology at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, says the difference between SARS and SARS-CoV-2 likely stems from an extra protein each of the viruses requires to activate and spread. Although both viruses dock onto cells through ACE2 receptors, another protein is needed to crack open the virus so its genetic material can get into the infected cell. The additional protein the original SARS virus requires is only present in lung tissue, but the protein for SARS-CoV-2 to activate is present in all cells, especially endothelial cells.
> 
> “In SARS1, the protein that’s required to cleave it is likely present only in the lung environment, so that’s where it can replicate. To my knowledge, it doesn’t really go systemic,” Lee says. “[SARS-CoV-2] is cleaved by a protein called furin, and that’s a big danger because furin is present in all our cells, it’s ubiquitous.”
> 
> Endothelial damage could explain the virus’ weird symptoms
> 
> An infection of the blood vessels would explain many of the weird tendencies of the novel coronavirus, like the high rates of blood clots. Endothelial cells help regulate clot formation by sending out proteins that turn the coagulation system on or off. The cells also help ensure that blood flows smoothly and doesn’t get caught on any rough edges on the blood vessel walls.
> 
> “The endothelial cell layer is in part responsible for [clot] regulation, it inhibits clot formation through a variety of ways,” says Sanjum Sethi, MD, MPH, an interventional cardiologist at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. “If that’s disrupted, you could see why that may potentially promote clot formation.”
> 
> Endothelial damage might account for the high rates of cardiovascular damage and seemingly spontaneous heart attacks in people with Covid-19, too. Damage to endothelial cells causes inflammation in the blood vessels, and that can cause any plaque that’s accumulated to rupture, causing a heart attack. This means anyone who has plaque in their blood vessels that might normally have remained stable or been controlled with medication is suddenly at a much higher risk for a heart attack.
> 
> “Inflammation and endothelial dysfunction promote plaque rupture,” Sethi says. “Endothelial dysfunction is linked towards worse heart outcomes, in particular myocardial infarction or heart attack.”
> 
> Blood vessel damage could also explain why people with pre-existing conditions like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, and heart disease are at a higher risk for severe complications from a virus that’s supposed to just infect the lungs. All of those diseases cause endothelial cell dysfunction, and the additional damage and inflammation in the blood vessels caused by the infection could push them over the edge and cause serious problems.
> 
> The theory could even solve the mystery of why ventilation often isn’t enough to help many Covid-19 patients breathe better. Moving air into the lungs, which ventilators help with, is only one part of the equation. The exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the blood is just as important to provide the rest of the body with oxygen, and that process relies on functioning blood vessels in the lungs.
> 
> “If you have blood clots within the blood vessels that are required for complete oxygen exchange, even if you’re moving air in and out of the airways, [if] the circulation is blocked, the full benefits of mechanical ventilatory support are somewhat thwarted,” says Li.
> 
> A new paper published last week in the New England Journal of Medicine, on which Li is a co-author, found widespread evidence of blood clots and infection in the endothelial cells in the lungs of people who died from Covid-19. This was in stark contrast to people who died from H1N1, who had nine times fewer blood clots in the lungs. Even the structure of the blood vessels was different in the Covid-19 lungs, with many more new branches that likely formed after the original blood vessels were damaged.
> 
> “We saw blood clots everywhere,” Li says. “We were observing virus particles filling up the endothelial cell like filling up a gumball machine. The endothelial cell swells and the cell membrane starts to break down, and now you have a layer of injured endothelium.”
> 
> Finally, infection of the blood vessels may be how the virus travels through the body and infects other organs — something that’s atypical of respiratory infections.
> 
> “Endothelial cells connect the entire circulation [system], 60,000 miles worth of blood vessels throughout our body,” says Li. “Is this one way that Covid-19 can impact the brain, the heart, the Covid toe? Does SARS-CoV-2 traffic itself through the endothelial cells or get into the bloodstream this way? We don’t know the answer to that.”
> 
> If Covid-19 is a vascular disease, the best antiviral therapy might not be antiviral therapy
> 
> An alternative theory is that the blood clotting and symptoms in other organs are caused by inflammation in the body due to an over-reactive immune response — the so-called cytokine storm. This inflammatory reaction can occur in other respiratory illnesses and severe cases of pneumonia, which is why the initial reports of blood clots, heart complications, and neurological symptoms didn’t sound the alarm bells. However, the magnitude of the problems seen with Covid-19 appear to go beyond the inflammation experienced in other respiratory infections.
> 
> “There is some increased propensity, we think, of clotting happening with these [other] viruses. I think inflammation in general promotes that,” Sethi says. “Is this over and above or unique for SARS-CoV-2, or is that just because [the infection] is just that much more severe? I think those are all really good questions that unfortunately we don’t have the answer to yet.”
> 
> Anecdotally, Sethi says the number of requests he received as the director of the pulmonary embolism response team, which deals with blood clots in the lungs, in April 2020 was two to three times the number in April 2019. The question he’s now trying to answer is whether that’s because there were simply more patients at the hospital during that month, the peak of the pandemic, or if Covid-19 patients really do have a higher risk for blood clots.
> 
> “I suspect from what we see and what our preliminary data show is that this virus has an additional risk factor for blood clots, but I can’t prove that yet,” Sethi says.
> 
> The good news is that if Covid-19 is a vascular disease, there are existing drugs that can help protect against endothelial cell damage. In another New England Journal of Medicine paper that looked at nearly 9,000 people with Covid-19, Mehra showed that the use of statins and ACE inhibitors were linked to higher rates of survival. Statins reduce the risk of heart attacks not only by lowering cholesterol or preventing plaque, they also stabilize existing plaque, meaning they’re less likely to rupture if someone is on the drugs.
> 
> “It turns out that both statins and ACE inhibitors are extremely protective on vascular dysfunction,” Mehra says. “Most of their benefit in the continuum of cardiovascular illness — be it high blood pressure, be it stroke, be it heart attack, be it arrhythmia, be it heart failure — in any situation the mechanism by which they protect the cardiovascular system starts with their ability to stabilize the endothelial cells.”
> 
> Mehra continues, “What we’re saying is that maybe the best antiviral therapy is not actually an antiviral therapy. The best therapy might actually be a drug that stabilizes the vascular endothelial. We’re building a drastically different concept.”



Article link:
 https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2


----------



## FJAG

A good article out of MacLeans:



> How Canada has bungled the COVID-19 endgame
> 
> Canada is mismanaging its most significant peacetime crisis in a century and the seeds of our failure are everywhere. Here are four things that must change.
> 
> By Amir Attaran
> May 31, 2020
> 
> About two months ago, as Canada was thrust into a terrifying lockdown, I wrote a piece in Maclean’s asking “What does the COVID-19 endgame look like?”  As a scientist I offered a roadmap for returning Canada to normalcy, and explained that it would be a long but predictable slog: first riding the lockdown to the point of bringing disease transmission to virtually nil, followed by a series of staged reopenings, monitored throughout by extensive COVID-19 testing and contact tracing to detect minor outbreaks quickly and squash them.
> 
> That approach is now so uncontroversial that no serious experts disagree.
> 
> But since then, it has become apparent that some provinces are not following that approach, and that Canada is stumbling through the endgame.
> 
> Our progress on “bending the curve” is halting and unimpressive compared to Europe and Asia. Our testing is so broken down that it lags behind Rwanda’s and Ethiopia’s. Our epidemiological data is so inadequate that even if we wanted to conduct the endgame well, often we cannot. Places like Toronto and Quebec are reopening too soon, risking to sicken—and kill—people needlessly, while the Maritimes and Prairies are reopening too slowly, strangling the economy.
> 
> Simply put, Canada is bungling its most significant peacetime crisis in a century.  That is why I am writing this sequel not just as a health scientist, but also as a constitutional lawyer—because the seeds of our failure are everywhere.
> ...



See rest of article here: https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/how-canada-has-bungled-the-covid-19-endgame/

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson

Left hand / right hand confusion means over 700 positive COVID-19 tests in the GTA were not communicated to public health.



> Hundreds of confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the Toronto area were not flagged to public health officials because of a mixup between two hospitals, CBC News has learned.
> 
> The positive tests were completed as far back as April but the 12 public health units involved were only notified about the oversight in the past few days. The bulk of the cases involve people living in Toronto, Peel Region and York Region.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-hospitals-missed-telling-public-health-confirmed-cases-1.5593572?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


----------



## Brad Sallows

Don't see how Canada bungled anything.

1. The aim was to bend the curve to flatten it, not to get it to zero.  The author's own chart shows that aim was met.

2. The author thinks we can get to eradication by test-and-trace, but that's not the smart way to bet.  Between extinguishing cases, hoping for a vaccine, or holding the curve flat and living with the virus, the last looks like the most prudent COA.

3. The fax machine thing was noticed and commented on a few weeks back.  It turns out that if you want people to notice what your sending, you use a fax.  I can see that we could be doing better, but "bungled" overstates the case.

4. Provinces (and cities) are not "responsible"; circumstances are.  Circumstances vary widely, so situations vary widely.

Mostly Canadian authorities have handled the problem well: containment, without excessive restrictions; reasonable relaxation of restrictions.  It doesn't take a declaration of emergency to share data and distribute testing resources and the funds to employ them.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Executive at long-term care company dismissed after allegedly mocking family members of residents*
> 
> ...
> 
> "Everyone logged off, but her, and she just closed her laptop, and the audio kept going," Manieri said, adding that he was recording the meeting.
> 
> "As soon as she closed it, she called us bloodsucking class-action lawsuits people."
> 
> Manieri said Dykeman also ridiculed some of the questions that families asked during the meeting.
> 
> Following the call, he said they notified other families and even sent an email to the premier's office.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/executive-at-long-term-care-company-dismissed-after-allegedly-mocking-family-members-of-residents-1.4970224


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Malaria drug didn't help virus patients, big UK study finds*
> 
> Leaders of a large study in the United Kingdom that is rigorously testing the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine and other medicines for hospitalized COVID-19 patients say they will stop putting people on the drug because it’s clear it isn’t helping.
> 
> Results released Friday from 1,542 patients showed the drug did not reduce deaths, time in the hospital or other factors. After 28 days, 25.7% on hydroxychloroquine had died versus 23.5% given usual care -- a difference so small it could have occurred by chance.
> 
> The results "convincingly rule out any meaningful mortality benefit," study leaders at the University of Oxford said in a statement.
> 
> The results have not been published; the statement said full details will be provided soon. No information on safety was given.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/2e04ef1d5c3aef7a92c4a0739782f876


----------



## daftandbarmy

This just in from McKinsey: 'We told you so."  

Nonetheless, some interesting (free) downloadable reports available through this site:


COVID-19: Briefing note: June 4, 2020


This has been an extremely painful time for communities across the United States and beyond, even as the pandemic continues to take its toll. We are amplifying our commitment to do our part to ensure that black lives are spoken for and valued, both inside our firm and beyond. Our ongoing research on the US racial-wealth gap and on diversity and inclusion is intended to clarify some of the underlying issues and potential paths forward. 

Research we published in April called out the disproportionate effects of COVID-19 on black Americans, who are almost twice as likely to live in the counties where the risk to health and economic activity is highest if and when contagion strikes (exhibit). Many of these places were the scene of this week’s anguished protests. 

Our newest research looks at the pandemic’s effects on US minority-owned small businesses. Vulnerable even before the pandemic, it has struck them disproportionately hard. Many of them are in the industries most susceptible to health and economic problems, such as accommodations and food services, retail, and healthcare. Owners are innovating and staying flexible, helping their communities to cope with the crisis. But these businesses are highly vulnerable; they need help from the private, public, and social sectors. 

Similar dynamics afflict US minority students. Previous McKinsey research has demonstrated the costs of a sizable achievement gap between white students and black and Hispanic ones. Our latest research, published this week, finds that the pandemic not only threatens to widen the achievement gap but also poses problems for all learners. The hurt could last a lifetime. 

People of color are vulnerable to yet another effect of the COVID-19 crisis as it affects large companies. Previous crises show there is a very real risk that as companies adapt to new ways of working, inclusion and diversity may unintentionally recede as strategic priorities. Yet as our latest report on inclusion and diversity argues, that would place companies at a disadvantage: they could not only face a backlash from customers and talent now but also, down the line, fail to better position themselves for growth and renewal.

McKinsey continues to research many aspects of leadership through the crisis. This week, we reported on dozens of our new research efforts, including the emerging themes dominating boardrooms; the post-COVID-19 future for US rail and trucking companies; the lessons learned from Asia’s manufacturing and supply chains; a new approach to tracking demand for travel; the potential for telehealth; and the safety protocols that hospitals, grocery stores, and others have used to stay open. 

Our latest briefing pack (June 1) details, across 94 pages, the current economic and epidemiological situation, how to transition to the next normal, and planning across multiple horizons. Please also see the full collection of content, visual insights from our “chart of the day,” a curated collection of our first 100 coronavirus articles, and our suite of tools to help leaders respond to the pandemic.

https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/risk/our-insights/covid-19-implications-for-business


----------



## Remius

Looks like Sweden’s plan for gaining herd immunity hasn’t quite worked out too well.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-intl/

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/top-epidemiologist-admits-he-got-swedens-covid-19-strategy-wrong

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-sweden-took-a-gamble-on-covid-and-it-lost-the-bet-badly


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:
			
		

> Looks like Sweden’s plan for gaining herd immunity hasn’t quite worked out too well.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-intl/
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/news/world/top-epidemiologist-admits-he-got-swedens-covid-19-strategy-wrong
> 
> https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-sweden-took-a-gamble-on-covid-and-it-lost-the-bet-badly




But how many of us didn't look at the Sweden model and go "Phauck, wish we had done that." Hindsight in this new world isn't 20/20, it's electron microscopy. There are more than 200 countries in the world, with varying degrees of abilities/approaches to deal with a pandemic. Sweden made a decision. We currently have 14 different approaches to covid-19 in Canada.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Good news and bad news.

The good news is that we've reached the point where everyone is comfortable enough with the situation to relax and second-guess everything that was done based on incomplete and often conflicting information.

The bad news is that we now go around second-guessing everything that was done based on incomplete and often conflicting information, with the benefit of more complete and less conflicted information.


----------



## stellarpanther

Has anyone heard anything about FTSE?  My son has been trying to get an update but isn't getting a response.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:
			
		

> But how many of us didn't look at the Sweden model and go "Phauck, wish we had done that." Hindsight in this new world isn't 20/20, it's electron microscopy. There are more than 200 countries in the world, with varying degrees of abilities/approaches to deal with a pandemic. Sweden made a decision. We currently have 14 different approaches to covid-19 in Canada.



Actually quite a few people thought that the Sweden model was a big risk and a dangerous one.  The ones that liked the Sweden model were the ones that opposed the lockdowns.   This isn’t hindsight.  It was  expected by plenty.  The uk started with the herd immunity strategy and quickly ended that when they saw the projections and the fact that no one had the discipline to do it effectively.

They only achieved 7.5% herd immunity and are looking to be worse off economically as other country reopen and block them off as they are considered a hot zone now.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If protests prove the virus isn't a big deal among the <50 population, Sweden won't need to be avoided.  If Sweden's experience is not atypical, the second wave starts shortly and should be massive.


----------



## stellarpanther

Ontario extending the emergency order until 19 June after numbers go up.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-coronavirus-ontario-june-6-1.5601585


----------



## stellarpanther

Just a guess but this virus is still out there, as things loosen the numbers will continue to rise.  All of these protests yesterday and this weekend will probably spread it even further and we'll start to see a real spike by 19 june, IMO.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Good news and bad news.
> 
> The good news is that we've reached the point where everyone is comfortable enough with the situation to relax and second-guess everything that was done based on incomplete and often conflicting information.
> 
> The bad news is that we now go around second-guessing everything that was done based on incomplete and often conflicting information, with the benefit of more complete and less conflicted information.



So, what you're saying is, we can expect a Royal Commission to be launched soon into the whole COVID thing, right?


----------



## stellarpanther

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If Sweden's experience is not atypical, the second wave starts shortly and should be massive.



What's the difference in a second wave and a second peak that's still part of the first wave?


----------



## Brad Sallows

>What's the difference in a second wave and a second peak that's still part of the first wave? 

One that matters only to statisticians and epidemiologists, I suppose.  A virus doesn't care about our mathematics or our politics or our social sensibilities.  It replicates itself whenever it can.


----------



## FJAG

> *Burnt-out health-care workers warn of mass exodus, with no end in sight to mandatory redeployment to CHSLDs*
> 
> Documents obtained by CBC News show at least one CIUSSS plans to keep employees reassigned until January
> 
> Kate McKenna · CBC News · Posted: Jun 06, 2020
> 
> It's been over a month on the front lines of the fight against COVID-19 for Julia, a speech language pathologist in west end Montreal. The army is withdrawing soldiers deployed to the long-term care home where she's working, but for her, there's no end in sight.
> 
> In late April, Julia was one of about 1,300 "involuntary deployments" — people in health-care-related fields conscripted to work in long-term care homes to make up for a critical shortage of staff as the pandemic ripped through them. Nearly 5,000 Quebecers have now died of COVID-19, 68 per cent of them residents of long-term care institutions, known as CHSLDs.
> 
> Now as spring turns to summer and Julia sweats through her protective gear in the facility where she is forced to work, she wonders when she'll be able to go back to the job she loves and is trained to do.
> 
> "I think about quitting every day, and I don't think I'm the only one," she said.
> 
> Speech therapists, physiotherapists, social workers and psychologists are among those reassigned to work as aides to patient attendants by regional health authorities in Montreal and Laval.
> 
> Some, exhausted and burnt out, are now questioning their future in the Quebec health-care system.
> ...



See rest of article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mandatory-long-term-health-care-deployment-1.5600449

 :cheers:


----------



## stellarpanther

FJAG said:
			
		

> See rest of article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mandatory-long-term-health-care-deployment-1.5600449
> 
> :cheers:



I was able to have a conversation with a friend last week who I've known for years and he was saying several medics, at least from the medics that went to Toronto are saying the same thing.  Some are openly talking about releasing and trying to get a civi job in their field. They are pissed, not necessarily at what they had to do but the way they were treated by the CAF.  Apparently when they originally started working in the LTC homes they were wearing N95's and despite having them available, after a short time they were told they didn't need them and that's when they started to get infected.  Even then nothing changed.  One of the things they were being told privately is that a lot of the workers inside are not being given N95's so it doesn't look good for the CAF to be wearing them so basically they got on the same page as the homes normal workers.
This, IMO is yet another example of the CAF being more concerned with optics and the mbr's safety  being second.


----------



## FJAG

Back to a topic we discussed briefly before: why not use the CAF in contact tracing?

It seems we have some 50,000 volunteers ready to help with that but few, if any, have been called on for that purpose notwithstanding that it is generally considered vital to control the spread.



> C*anada has an army of volunteers ready to help fight COVID-19 — so why aren't we using them?*
> 
> More than 50k volunteers signed up to help with contact tracing, data collection but they are not being used
> 
> Adam Miller · CBC News · Posted: Jun 06, 2020
> 
> Thousands of Canadians have volunteered their time to help track COVID-19 cases across the country, but even Canada's hardest-hit provinces haven't used them.
> 
> ...



See whole article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid19-canada-volunteers-1.5600484

Strikes me that a layer of military personnel falling as middle management between the Federal/Provincial health care organization managers and professionals and the body of volunteers could be a useful role for the CAF. We have a hierarchical structure and would be there full-time to provide continuity.

 :dunno:


----------



## Remius

And considering we have thousands of CAF pers literally doing nothing...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> And considering we have thousands of CAF pers literally doing nothing...



Are you suggesting we should order the military to do the contact tracing, data collection (that people are volunteering to do) or that soldiers should be  involved as middle management between the Federal/Provincial health care organizations?


----------



## Remius

I just found it odd that the GOC went looking for volunteers when they had a pool of people not doing anything and quite possibly looking for something to do.

And it isn’t just the CAF.  Plenty of departments and agencies have a lot of people not actually doing any work.


----------



## stellarpanther

IMO, these are things that the CAF should not be used for.  We shouldn't be used for whatever needs to be done when civilians can do these things and lots of them are volunteering.   First even if the order came down and we were going to do that, it would require training and we seem to have difficulty training people to do the tasks they joined up for let alone something new.  We just had a big discussion about PLQ and some of that discussion was about how long it takes to get on course.  We also have people especially in the Reserves waiting a couple years just to get qualified for their trade because we supposedly don't have enough instructor's and can't pull people away from other duties to let them instruct.  The reason people are sitting at home is because they want to keep people separated as much as possible to hopefully avoid them catching the virus.  In order to do contract tracing, I assume people would need access to their computers in the office.


----------



## Remius

sure. 

I get it.  We all have to stay home.  That isn’t just a CAF thing.  

But we are encouraging breweries to make hand sanitizer,  car companies to make ventilators but the CAF can’t re-roll to do contact tracing and data collection?  Something we already have the capability to do? 

In every dom op I participated in it involved data collection. 

We are always called on to do all sorts of things outside our normal parameters.  I don’t buy the the “sorry  not our job” when we are in a collective crisis.  Every job might be your job when that happens.  

Getting people to volunteer is great.  But when you have a pool of people getting paid to stay at home and actually can do those things?  FJAG made a great suggestion the the CAF could be used as way to organise these volunteers in some capacity.

Never mind the fact that we have a footprint in just about every single province and community.  But hey let’s not use that because we are staying home worrying about a PLQ that isn’t running.


----------



## stellarpanther

I don't believe we should be militarizing the workforce which is what you are suggesting.  The military should be used as a last resort.  We can't go back to work to do our regular jobs because it's not safe right now but it would be ok to go back to do contact tracing?  It doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Almost every member of the CAF is first aid qualified. We could deploy the entire CAF to long term care facilities and take them over. 

We'd be exercising everything from small party tasks to division level logistics.

We could also send troops to enforce social distancing. Combat arms leadership would excel at running daycares  :stirpot:


----------



## blacktriangle

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't believe we should be militarizing the workforce which is what you are suggesting.  The military should be used as a last resort.  We can't go back to work to do our regular jobs because it's not safe right now but it would be ok to go back to do contact tracing?  It doesn't make sense to me.



From what I've read, many contact tracers are able to work remotely. 

If the CAF needs to support it, so be it. What about all the federal public servants? Remius already made the very valid point that there is more than just the CAF employed by the GoC. So I'd be taking a holistic look at what needs to be done, and who is available on the payroll to do it. I'm sure many people would rather be making calls from home rather than grinding it out in LTC.


----------



## stellarpanther

I only spoke to one but I'm willing bet other medics who just completed a rotation at a LTC home will say the same thing I heard, the homes don't want general laborer's, they want people who are trained medics, nurses etc.  I don't think they want someone who has standard first aid.


----------



## Jarnhamar

When LTC homes need the military to deploy in and do their jobs for them they lose credibility to decide what they need and what they don't need IMO.

I may just be a grunt with st John's first aid but I know you don't feed someone laying down.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> IMO, these are things that the CAF should not be used for.  We shouldn't be used for whatever needs to be done when civilians can do these things and lots of them are volunteering.



Totally agree with you: What Canada and the provinces should create is a civil defence/emergency preparedness organization like many other countries around the world have. Those are the people that should be fighting pandemics, putting out fires or responding to floods, etc, not the military.


----------



## ModlrMike

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Totally agree with you: What Canada and the provinces should create is a civil defence/emergency preparedness organization like many other countries around the world have. Those are the people that should be fighting pandemics, putting out fires or responding to floods, etc, not the military.



What? Are you crazy? Someone might break a nail.


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When LTC homes need the military to deploy in and do their jobs for them they lose credibility to decide what they need and what they don't need IMO.
> 
> I may just be a grunt with st John's first aid but I know you don't feed someone laying down.



The more I read about these LTC facilities the more I'm reaching the conclusion that it isn't so much bad workers (although one can always find a few examples) but the physical layout and procedures and equipment involved.

What LTCs didn't seem to have (in general) is separate isolation facilities which restrict the circulation of air from infected individuals reaching other vulnerable individuals; the proper procedures to test and immediately isolate infected patients from the rest of the population; and the appropriate and sufficient PPE and other equipment and procedures so that workers working with infected patients didn't spread it to others.

Those issues probably also apply to the more common Flu that runs through these places every year. I remember visiting clients in these facilities during flu season in prior years and was always concerned about the fact that everything was going on like any other day except there were signs taped to the doors asking people to stay away if infected and providing a few more hand sanitizer stations.

 :dunno:


----------



## stellarpanther

FJAG said:
			
		

> The more I read about these LTC facilities the more I'm reaching the conclusion that it isn't so much bad workers (although one can always find a few examples) but the physical layout and procedures and equipment involved.
> 
> What LTCs didn't seem to have (in general) is separate isolation facilities which restrict the circulation of air from infected individuals reaching other vulnerable individuals; the proper procedures to test and immediately isolate infected patients from the rest of the population; and the appropriate and sufficient PPE and other equipment and procedures so that workers working with infected patients didn't spread it to others.
> 
> Those issues probably also apply to the more common Flu that runs through these places every year. I remember visiting clients in these facilities during flu season in prior years and was always concerned about the fact that everything was going on like any other day except there were signs taped to the doors asking people to stay away if infected and providing a few more hand sanitizer stations.
> 
> :dunno:



My sister in-law works in a LTC home(not Toronto) and she has been saying even before this pandemic that they don't have enough staff to properly care for the patients.  This outbreak made it worse but I believe the solution is to hire more staff and set regulations that are actually enforced.  ie. 1 PSW of every 4 patients, 1 RN for every 10 patients etc.  Right now like everything else, it's run the place with the least amount of staff possible and make the largest profit possible.  I also agree with you also though.  I'm sure they are not set up properly to be able to isolate people etc when needed.


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> My sister in-law works in a LTC home(not Toronto) and she has been saying even before this pandemic that they don't have enough staff to properly care for the patients.  This outbreak made it worse but I believe the solution is to hire more staff and set regulations that are actually enforced.  ie. 1 PSW of every 4 patients, 1 RN for every 10 patients etc.



Covid-19 is new. Running short staffed is not, from what I observed.


----------



## stellarpanther

mariomike said:
			
		

> Covid-19 is new. Running short staffed is not, from what I observed.



So what I'm saying is they were short staffed before and patients often weren't getting the proper or at least timely care then and it's apparently amplified now.  What's the solution?  Are we going to leave the CAF there forever or will the government step up with enforced regulations?  If not it will go back to business as usual, IMO.  Also remember that the CAF mission in these homes was  for 30 days but I believe Quebec has asked for an additional 30 days.  Not sure about Ontario.  This isn't going to end in the next 30 days and I doubt the staffing issues have been resolved.


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> So what I'm saying is they were short staffed before and patients often weren't getting the proper or at least timely care then and it's apparently amplified now.  What's the solution?  Are we going to leave the CAF there forever or will the government step up with enforced regulations?  If not it will go back to business as usual, IMO.  Also remember that the CAF mission in these homes was  for 30 days but I believe Quebec has asked for an additional 30 days.  Not sure about Ontario.  This isn't going to end in the next 30 days and I doubt the staffing issues have been resolved.



Normally I would say that is the provinces problem, however in this case I feel we have at the very least a moral obligation to not leave our fellow citizens in the condition we found. The feds need to give the province's a deadline though to get their house in order.


----------



## FJAG

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Normally I would say that is the provinces problem, however in this case I feel we have at the very least a moral obligation to not leave our fellow citizens in the condition we found. The feds need to give the province's a deadline though to get their house in order.



And then what? The Feds don't have jurisdiction here beyond those in the Canada Health Act to standardize health care across Canada by fund transfers and the standards and criteria set out in it. Those standards and conditions, however, are very broad brushed and do not deal with details such as this would require. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-6/page-1.html#h-151500

Essentially each province is responsible to it's own electorate for health care and not to the Federal government. This is one of those areas which needs inter-jurisdictional negotiation and additional cash transfers if a national standard is to be achieved.

On the other hand, judging by it's approach to gun legislation, I can see the Feds (blindly supported by the NDP) trying to be bullies on this topic with the hope that it will win them brownie points with the electorate.

 :cheers:


----------



## Weinie

FJAG said:
			
		

> And then what? The Feds don't have jurisdiction here beyond those in the Canada Health Act to standardize health care across Canada by fund transfers and the standards and criteria set out in it. Those standards and conditions, however, are very broad brushed and do not deal with details such as this would require. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-6/page-1.html#h-151500
> 
> Essentially each province is responsible to it's own electorate for health care and not to the Federal government. This is one of those areas which needs inter-jurisdictional negotiation and additional cash transfers if a national standard is to be achieved.
> 
> On the other hand, judging by it's approach to gun legislation, I can see the Feds (blindly supported by the NDP) trying to be bullies on this topic with the hope that it will win them brownie points with the electorate.
> 
> :cheers:


FJAG.

You are injecting realism and logic into the conversation, when emotionalism and agenda-driven discussion are what matter. Expect to be hated soon.


----------



## FJAG

Weinie said:
			
		

> FJAG.
> 
> You are injecting realism and logic into the conversation, when emotionalism and agenda-driven discussion are what matter. Expect to be hated soon.



Soon???  That ship sailed a long time ago.

 :rofl:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Removed because of really ugly translation job from the original WSJ article....


----------



## Brad Sallows

Which on-line language translator was used, and which language was it translated to and from, to produce the preceding?


----------



## Brad Sallows

"The virus is novel, so our understanding of what responding to it might require of us has had to be built on the fly. But the polarized culture war that pervades so much of our national life has made this kind of learning very difficult. Views developed in response to provisional assessments of incomplete evidence quickly rigidify as they are transformed into tribal markers and then cultural weapons. Soon there are left-wing and right-wing views on whether to wear masks, whether particular drugs are effective, or how to think about social distancing."

Tribalism Comes for Pandemic Science (Yuval Levin, in The New Atlantis).


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Looming Bank Collapse


Unless you work in finance, you probably haven’t heard of CLOs, but according to many estimates, the CLO market is bigger than the subprime-mortgage CDO market was in its heyday. The Bank for International Settlements, which helps central banks pursue financial stability, has estimated the overall size of the CDO market in 2007 at $640 billion; it estimated the overall size of the CLO market in 2018 at $750 billion. More than $130 billion worth of CLOs have been created since then, some even in recent months. Just as easy mortgages fueled economic growth in the 2000s, cheap corporate debt has done so in the past decade, and many companies have binged on it.

It is a distasteful fact that the present situation is so dire in part because the banks fell right back into bad behavior after the last crash—taking too many risks, hiding debt in complex instruments and off-balance-sheet entities, and generally exploiting loopholes in laws intended to rein in their greed. Sparing them for a second time this century will be that much harder.

If we muster the political will to do so—or if we avert the worst possible outcomes in this precarious time—it will be imperative for the U.S. government to impose reforms stringent enough to head off the next crisis. We’ve seen how banks respond to stern reprimands and modest reform. This time, regulators might need to dismantle the system as we know it. Banks should play a much simpler role in the new economy, making lending decisions themselves instead of farming them out to credit-rating agencies. They should steer clear of whatever newfangled security might replace the CLO. To prevent another crisis, we also need far more transparency, so we can see when banks give in to temptation. A bank shouldn’t be able to keep $1 trillion worth of assets off its books.

If we do manage to make it through the next year without waking up to a collapse, we must find ways to prevent the big banks from going all in on bets they can’t afford to lose. Their luck—and ours—will at some point run out.


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/coronavirus-banks-collapse/612247/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Looming recession poses second global embarrassment for UK

First coronavirus, now the OECD says Britain will top the developing world’s recession league table. Here’s why

Worse than Italy. Worse than Spain. Britain has already had more deaths from Covid-19 than any other European country. Now it faces the possibility of a second embarrassment: the deepest recession of any nation in the developed world.

There’s not much in it, according to the latest forecasts from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. Italy and Spain are also propping up the league table put together by the Paris-based thinktank. A lot can happen between now and the end of 2020, a year that has not yet reached its mid-point.

Even so, the OECD’s findings make grim reading. It thinks the economy will contract by 11.5% in the event of a single hit and by 14% if the virus returns later in the year. The 37-member thinktank says one is no more likely than the other.

So why is the UK set to do much worse than Germany, which expects output to contract by 6.6% in the event of a single hit?

One factor identified by the OECD is the importance of the service sector to the UK economy. Trade, tourism, real estate and hospitality together make up a sizeable chunk of gross domestic products and all have been hard hit by the lockdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/10/recession-uk-britain-coronavirus-developing-world-oecd


----------



## Jarnhamar

Socially distanced talk around the water cooler today was that the only reason the CAF memo about Long Term Care Facility treatment came to light was because a CAF member leaked the existence of the memo to a reporter and the reporter informed the CAF that if they didn't make it public the reporter would. 

Is there any truth to that rumor?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Socially distanced talk around the water cooler today was that the only reason the CAF memo about Long Term Care Facility treatment came to light was because a CAF member leaked the existence of the memo to a reporter and the reporter informed the CAF that if they didn't make it public the reporter would.
> 
> Is there any truth to that rumor?



I'll find a non-offensive reference...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Alarming rise in virus cases as states roll back lockdowns*
> 
> States are rolling back lockdowns, but the coronavirus isn’t done with the U.S.
> 
> Cases are rising in nearly half the states, according to an Associated Press analysis, a worrying trend that could intensify as people return to work and venture out during the summer.
> 
> ...
> 
> The virus is also gradually fanning out.
> 
> “It is a disaster that spreads,” said Dr. Jay Butler, who oversees coronavirus response work at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “It’s not like there’s an entire continental seismic shift and everyone feels the shaking all at once.”
> 
> That is also happening globally. Places that suffered early on such as China, Italy and Spain have calmed down but Brazil, India and other countries that were spared initially are seeing large increases. The world is seeing more than 100,000 newly-confirmed cases every day, according to data from Johns Hopkins University,
> 
> The virus first landed on the U.S. coasts, carried by international travelers infected abroad. For months, the epicenter was in northeastern states. More recently, the biggest increases have been in the South and the West.
> 
> The AP analyzed data compiled by The COVID Tracking Project, a volunteer organization that collects coronavirus testing data in the United States. The analysis found that in 21 states as of Monday, the rolling seven-day average of new cases per capita was higher than the average seven days earlier.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/feb4c26d9364497cf82ee7c0c1b1b3d5


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *US hits grim milestone of 2 million coronavirus cases*
> 
> ...
> 
> An ABC News analysis has found that at least eight states across the country -- including Arizona, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah -- are experiencing an increase in coronavirus-related hospitalizations since May 25. Public health officials or local experts in many of the states told ABC News they consider the increases to be related to a reopening of the economy or a disregard of social distancing guidelines, including not wearing masks.
> 
> The increases in hospitalizations also come nearly two weeks after Memorial Day weekend, when some people were seen flouting social distancing rules at crowded bars and packed pool parties, which experts said is most likely contributing to the spikes. It is likely too early to gauge the impact of nationwide protests and civil unrest, according to experts.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/us-hits-grim-milestone-million-coronavirus-cases/story?id=71191190


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Brazil now has 2nd highest COVID death total*
> 
> https://apnews.com/12d85859df13453a3625c693fbae9955
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil/brazils-covid-19-deaths-surge-past-uk-who-says-hospital-system-coping-idUSKBN23J30F


----------



## Remius

To be honest it looks like the current US administration has given up on COVID.


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:
			
		

> To be honest it looks like the current US administration has given up on COVID.



So has the rest of the world... infection rates are plummeting, and the MSM in the US (and Canada) has a new cause du jour to cover.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> To be honest it looks like the current US administration has given up on COVID.





> Trump rally-goers must agree they won't sue if they contract coronavirus
> 
> ...
> 
> "By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present," the campaign website says on the RSVP page for the rally. "By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-rally-goers-must-agree-they-wont-sue-if-they-contract-coronavirus/


----------



## FJAG

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So has the rest of the world... infection rates are plummeting, and the MSM in the US (and Canada) has a new cause du jour to cover.





> CDC predicts 130,000 US coronavirus deaths by July 4, with more new cases as states reopen
> 
> By Dakin Andone, CNN
> Updated 8:24 PM ET, Fri June 12, 2020
> 
> ... According to a CNN analysis of data from Johns Hopkins University, 19 states have increasing case rates, several of which have seen record or near-record highs. And for the first time, rising caseloads have led some officials to delay phased re-opening plans.
> ...
> North Carolina on Friday had the most cases announced in one day since the pandemic began in January.
> ...
> Texas's new case rates have been far higher than they were in the preceding two months, averaging 1,729 new cases per day over the week ending June 11,
> ...
> Meanwhile, Florida is experiencing its highest 7-day average for new cases, per Johns Hopkins data.
> ...
> California, Los Angeles hit a near-record high in cases, even as the county moves toward Phase 3 of its re-opening plan on Friday,
> ...



https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/12/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html

Scheduled to attend a wedding in Orlando in August. Wedding optimistically not yet cancelled. Our plans to attend are pessimistically definitely cancelled.

 :worms:


----------



## Quirky

FJAG said:
			
		

> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/12/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html



Key word here is "Predicts". There were some crazy prediction numbers in the first two-three months, for death numbers in particular. None of that came true as they overestimated the death rate. After all these protests, if we don't see a large number of people dropping dead, we know this was just a big fraud. Our own government has encouraged protests and large gatherings as it's been deemed more essential that health and safety. "White privilege" is now a greater threat than COVID-19, according to health experts.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:
			
		

> Key word here is "Predicts". There were some crazy prediction numbers in the first two-three months, for death numbers in particular. None of that came true as they overestimated the death rate. After all these protests, if we don't see a large number of people dropping dead, we know this was just a big fraud. Our own government has encouraged protests and large gatherings as it's been deemed more essential that health and safety. "White privilege" is now a greater threat than COVID-19, according to health experts.



There is now much better data than in the first few months. Also, bear in mind, that the most extreme predictions of death rates were predicated on us doing nothing. You're falling into the obvious trap of assuming that because what we did has more or less 'worked', that the risk was overblown. That's exactly the fallacy that many have been warning about. 

As the US is now at about 117k COVID-19 deaths, and July 4th is 3 weeks away, that would only require another 619 deaths per day. The seven day moving average for daily deaths in the US is presently at 776. So it seems quite reasonable to me to estimate 130k by July 4th. If anything it will probably exceed that.

The global total daily new cases continues to increase steadily, as do global daily deaths. Watch India, Pakistan,and Bangladesh next. They're climbing precipitously, despite relatively very low testing rates.  All three of course are very underdeveloped, all three have densely packed populations, some segments of which are malnourished and have limited access to sanitation facilities.

South America, the Middle East, and South Africa are both seeing significant increases as well, despite, in several cases, testing rates that significantly lag more developed countries (not the case for all Middle Eastern nations of course).

So yeah. Dismissing COVID at this point does not seem to be a position supported by facts.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ... infection rates are plummeting, and the MSM in the US (and Canada) has a new cause du jour to cover.


Any stats to share to back that up?  Looks to me a bit of a mixed bag according to this counter people seem to be relying on, depending on where you look.  Worldwide, daily cases going up, Canada coming down and USA only slowly coming down.  "Plummet" isn't the term I'd use just yet.


----------



## Quirky

Brihard said:
			
		

> So yeah. Dismissing COVID at this point does not seem to be a position supported by facts.



This pretty much sums up what our government has been saying for the past few months:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVs5AyjzwRM

Make up your god damn minds on this already!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Quirky said:
			
		

> Key word here is "Predicts". There were some crazy prediction numbers in the first two-three months, for death numbers in particular. None of that came true as they overestimated the death rate. After all these protests, if we don't see a large number of people dropping dead, we know this was just a big fraud. Our own government has encouraged protests and large gatherings as it's been deemed more essential that health and safety. "White privilege" is now a greater threat than COVID-19, according to health experts.



The effects of these protests as an actual vector of COVID transmission won't be known for weeks.  

All told, it's safe to say COVID is probably here for good and we may as well just accept it and begin to deal with it.  I'm personally not afraid of dying from it.  There is a lot of things that can kill us and we will all eventually die someday.  

Just another existential crisis that comes around once every decade or so.  Remember when they thought the World was going to end in 2000 and all our computers were going to crash?  How about 9/11/2001?  Financial Meltdown of 2008.  Or prior to COVID 19, Climate Change!

Before then it was the threat of Nuclear Warfare, World War 2, The Great Depression, Spanish Flu, World War 1. 

We will be just fine.

Next one, in the theme of Y2K is the Y2K38 problem.  The general public just hasn't really caught on to this one yet lol.


----------



## PuckChaser

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Any stats to share to back that up?  Looks to me a bit of a mixed bag according to this counter people seem to be relying on, depending on where you look.  Worldwide, daily cases going up, Canada coming down and USA only slowly coming down.  "Plummet" isn't the term I'd use just yet.



Last 3 days Ontario (shared with Quebec as "worst" Canadian provinces for COVID-19) has had sub 300 cases with over 20K tests completed (they hit 28K again yesterday). That shows the infection rates are no where close to the worst-case scenarios. Your own data shows a real marked difference in cases per day between Early May and Early June of a high of 2K per day down to 500ish, so a 75% decrease. Your US data shows highs of 35K daily near the end of April to around 25K now. 

So is a 30% or 75% decrease from the peak "plummeting"? Depends on your definition, but its a statistically significant change in the right direction which means the focus in the media has turned off of COVID and onto protesting and riots.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Just another existential crisis that comes around once every decade or so.  Remember when they thought the World was going to end in 2000 and all our computers were going to crash?  How about 9/11/2001?  Financial Meltdown of 2008.  Or prior to COVID 19, Climate Change!



Don't worry, Greta is keeping us all on plot 

Greta Thunberg calls Bolsonaro a 'failure' on coronavirus as NGOs sue his administration over Amazon destruction

The teenage activist called for medical supplies for communities in Brazil’s Amazon rainforest, who have been devastated by the pandemic due to a lack of health services

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/greta-thunberg-bolsonaro-brazil-amazon-rainforest-world-environment-day-a9551461.html


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Don't worry, Greta is keeping us all on plot
> 
> Greta Thunberg calls Bolsonaro a 'failure' on coronavirus as NGOs sue his administration over Amazon destruction
> 
> The teenage activist called for medical supplies for communities in Brazil’s Amazon rainforest, who have been devastated by the pandemic due to a lack of health services
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/greta-thunberg-bolsonaro-brazil-amazon-rainforest-world-environment-day-a9551461.html



One of those ‘stopped clock’ things I guess. Bolsonaro does not appear to have led Brazil through this crisis with any particular degree of effectiveness. He’s big on theatrics and bluster; less so on sound policy if their numbers are at all accurate.


----------



## FJAG

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Don't worry, Greta is keeping us all on plot
> 
> Greta Thunberg calls Bolsonaro a 'failure' on coronavirus as NGOs sue his administration over Amazon destruction
> 
> The teenage activist called for medical supplies for communities in Brazil’s Amazon rainforest, who have been devastated by the pandemic due to a lack of health services
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/greta-thunberg-bolsonaro-brazil-amazon-rainforest-world-environment-day-a9551461.html



A Swede ... criticizing some other country for their approach to Covid?  ... Pot? ... Kettle? ... Black?



> Sweden should have done more to combat coronavirus, health chief says
> 
> Country has 8th highest number of coronavirus-related deaths per capita in the world
> Thomson Reuters · Posted: Jun 03, 2020 8:27 AM ET | Last Updated: June 3



See article here:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/sweden-coronavirus-reaction-1.5596235


----------



## Brad Sallows

We don't say that anymore.  Now we say "that's one kytchynware calling xe other kytchynware carbon-coated".


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> There is now much better data than in the first few months. Also, bear in mind, that the most extreme predictions of death rates were predicated on us doing nothing. You're falling into the obvious trap of assuming that because what we did has more or less 'worked', that the risk was overblown. That's exactly the fallacy that many have been warning about.
> 
> As the US is now at about 117k COVID-19 deaths, and July 4th is 3 weeks away, that would only require another 619 deaths per day. The seven day moving average for daily deaths in the US is presently at 776. So it seems quite reasonable to me to estimate 130k by July 4th. If anything it will probably exceed that.
> 
> The global total daily new cases continues to increase steadily, as do global daily deaths. Watch India, Pakistan,and Bangladesh next. They're climbing precipitously, despite relatively very low testing rates.  All three of course are very underdeveloped, all three have densely packed populations, some segments of which are malnourished and have limited access to sanitation facilities.
> 
> South America, the Middle East, and South Africa are both seeing significant increases as well, despite, in several cases, testing rates that significantly lag more developed countries (not the case for all Middle Eastern nations of course).
> 
> So yeah. Dismissing COVID at this point does not seem to be a position supported by facts.



To add,

Alarming rise in confirmed cases in U.S. states spared from first outbreaks
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-cases-second-wave-us-191009665.html


----------



## Remius

https://nypost.com/2020/06/14/indian-holy-man-who-offered-covid-exorcisms-gets-infected-and-dies/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Is the defence department's crackdown on leaks about security — or avoiding 
embarrassment?

Some secrets are obvious — others not so much.

Which explains why the defence establishment has embarked upon the creation of new directives that will crack down on the handling of unclassified information

Postmedia first published word of the revamp earlier this week, linking it with recent leaks to CBC News (over the crash of an air force Cyclone helicopter) and Global News (over the horrifying conditions facing troops supporting long-term care homes).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/national-defence-leaks-unclassified-information-1.5610797


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Is the defence department's crackdown on leaks about security — or avoiding
> embarrassment?



100% about optics. Things wouldn't get leaked if they actually addressed or fixed issues. Conditions in LTC facilities isn't exactly national security.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Record spikes in new coronavirus cases, hospitalizations sweep parts of U.S.*
> 
> New coronavirus cases and hospitalizations in record numbers swept through more U.S. states, including Florida and Texas, as most push ahead with reopening and President Donald Trump plans an indoor rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
> 
> ...
> 
> Perhaps more troubling for health officials is many of these states are also seeing record hospitalizations - a metric not affected by increased testing.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/record-spikes-in-new-coronavirus-cases-hospitalizations-sweep-parts-of-u-s-idUSKBN23L0JB


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Pandemic Is Propelling a New Wave of Automation 

Software programs adopted during the Covid-19 crisis make it easier to complete forms and track requests. It saves work, but could cost jobs.

Last month, the pharma company Takeda began recruiting patients for a clinical trial of a promising Covid-19 treatment involving antibodies drawn from the blood of recovered patients. It normally takes several weeks to collect people’s information, determine who may be suitable for the trial, and get the paperwork in order.

Inspired by the success, Takeda is now stepping up its use of RPA with a plan to train thousands of staff to build and use software bots for themselves. It recently ran a successful pilot with 22 employees. It estimates that the effort could automate 4.6 million hours of office work per year—the equivalent of roughly 2,000 full-time workers. But Takeda doesn’t see the technology displacing anyone. Cousin says the goal is to boost productivity, and hiring has increased as the software bots have been rolled out.

For all the hype around artificial intelligence and machine learning, the quickest and easiest way for companies to automate office work is through simple and decidedly unintelligent software automation. Takeda’s approach provides a way for machines to take over routine and repetitive tasks without investing in a big software project or worrying about legacy systems. It’s hardly elegant or robust, but as long as you can point and click, you can automate.

https://www.wired.com/story/pandemic-propelling-new-wave-automation/#intcid=recommendations_wired-homepage-right-rail_be864132-a8ba-4cc9-82f4-5ff6e20e36b4_popular4-1


----------



## FJAG

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The Pandemic Is Propelling a New Wave of Automation
> 
> Software programs adopted during the Covid-19 crisis make it easier to complete forms and track requests. It saves work, but could cost jobs.
> ...



Its always interested me as to how resistant to change some professions are.

In my former life I was a litigator and the IT partner for my law firm. Most of the lawyers in my firm were solicitors who, let's face it, earn most of their living by cobbling together documents from back in the days when "cut and paste" literally meant "cut and paste".

It was easy to see that their practices could benefit greatly from the use of document assembly software that could easily meld standard clauses with variable case specific information both speeding up the process, reducing errors and standardizing documents throughout the firm. Unfortunately hard as I might try to get that adopted these systems in the firm there was steadfast resistance by the solicitor side to devote either the time and resources to do the initial setup for these systems. They blithely carried on with their various "cut and paste" processes. On the other hand we few litigators automated assembly of several litigation based documents such as divorce petitions, claims and motions and separation agreements.

Every once in a while a crisis like this one creates a leap in acceptance for tools that were already there and to processes that should have been adopted long ago.

op:


----------



## Blackadder1916

FJAG said:
			
		

> It was easy to see that their practices could benefit greatly from the use of document assembly software that could easily meld standard clauses with variable case specific information both speeding up the process, reducing errors and standardizing documents throughout the firm. Unfortunately hard as I might try to get that adopted these systems in the firm there was steadfast resistance by the solicitor side to devote either the time and resources to do the initial setup for these systems. They blithely carried on with their various "cut and paste" processes. On the other hand we few litigators automated assembly of several litigation based documents such as divorce petitions, claims and motions and separation agreements.
> 
> Every once in a while a crisis like this one creates a leap in acceptance for tools that were already there and to processes that should have been adopted long ago.



Could you also see this as an opportunity for legal out-sourcing (to India, for example) of many of these repetitive (and some non-repetitive) tasks?  http://www.legalwise.ca/


----------



## FJAG

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Could you also see this as an opportunity for legal out-sourcing (to India, for example) of many of these repetitive (and some non-repetitive) tasks?  http://www.legalwise.ca/



Outsourcing is a very tricky subject because of the solicitor-client relationship and confidentiality. 

 :cheers:


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Stocks sink worldwide as coronavirus infections rise again*
> 
> ...
> 
> Case numbers are still growing in states across the country and nations around the world. Governments are relaxing lockdowns in hopes of nursing their devastated economies back to life, but without a vaccine, the reopenings could bring on further waves of COVID-19 deaths.
> 
> “If globally, we are still in wave 1, then it is possible that without a vaccine, the big wave is still lying out there somewhere waiting to hit,” said Robert Carnell, regional head of research Asia-Pacific at ING.
> 
> China is reporting a new outbreak in Beijing, one that appears to be the biggest since it largely stopped its spread at home more than two months ago. In New York, the governor is upset that big groups of people are packing together outside bars and restaurants without face masks, and he threatened to reinstate closings in areas where local governments fail to enforce the rules.
> 
> That’s the biggest worry for markets: If infections swamp the world, governments could bring back the orders for people to stay at home and for businesses to shut down that sent the economy into its worst recession in decades. Even if that doesn’t happen, rolling waves of outbreaks could frighten businesses and consumers enough to keep them from spending and investing, which would itself hinder the economy.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/962b5be432072598f46937ff1f16b9c7





> *Beijing reinstates virus controls as cases rise*
> 
> ...
> 
> The new cases reported in the past few days mark China’s highest daily total of coronavirus cases in two months, prompting Beijing to suspend the restart of some classes and reverse the relaxation of some social isolation measures.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/7ff6d9fe5ee300c0d73ae6c8df2e9710


----------



## FJAG

If we could get the 75% of our population, who are morons, to put on the damn facemasks that everyone recommends then we wouldn't have to worry so much about a second wave. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

Was out grocery shopping today and the ratio of masked to unmasked was about 1 to 3. The latter included one slovenly old twerp in a track suit and bare feet in Crocs who was diligently pawing through dozens of full bags of cherries picking individual ones out to make up the "special" selection he wanted; needs a solid tap upside the head with a two by four that one. 

 :brickwall:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

In Wellington County [Guelph/ Fergus/Elora you don't get into a business without a mask.....public health orders.


----------



## CBH99

Agree with you FJAG


Also, slightly different track...think we can all accept that the virus is here to stay, whether we like it or not.  Recent research is showing that Asymptomatic people have a very low chance of transmitting the virus, and most of them don't even know they have it.  

We have to remember that not everybody who gets a fever, or gets a cold, automatically has COVID.



The virus is here to stay, lets just find a way to keep society rolling while figuring something out.  Feel sick?  Stay home, especially now.  Practice good hygiene.  

That guy should get a smack upside the head just for being a total slob to begin with...no excuse now that things are the way they are.   :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy

FJAG said:
			
		

> If we could get the 75% of our population, who are morons, to put on the damn facemasks that everyone recommends then we wouldn't have to worry so much about a second wave. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?
> 
> Was out grocery shopping today and the ratio of masked to unmasked was about 1 to 3. The latter included one slovenly old twerp in a track suit and bare feet in Crocs who was diligently pawing through dozens of full bags of cherries picking individual ones out to make up the "special" selection he wanted; needs a solid tap upside the head with a two by four that one.
> 
> :brickwall:



Send photos please. That’s part of my retirement plan, along with driving slowly in the left lane with my turn indicator on and taking ‘forever’ to give my order in the Starbucks line up at peak times


----------



## PuckChaser

Count me in the moron population. Masks are recommended, not mandatory in most of Ontario and only recommended when physical distancing isn't possible. I trust myself to maintain enough situational awareness to stay away from people, than completely trusting a non-medical mask. I've never been in a store that's been confined enough for me to think I should be wearing a mask, but maybe I'm just looking at my odds of getting sick from one of the 3 COVID-19 positive people in all of Renfrew County as slim to none.  :dunno:


----------



## Brash

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Count me in the moron population. Masks are recommended, not mandatory in most of Ontario and only recommended when physical distancing isn't possible. I trust myself to maintain enough situational awareness to stay away from people, than completely trusting a non-medical mask. I've never been in a store that's been confined enough for me to think I should be wearing a mask, but maybe I'm just looking at my odds of getting sick from one of the 3 COVID-19 positive people in all of Renfrew County as slim to none.  :dunno:



This seems to be a common position. Is it possible that this is a result of normalcy/optimistic bias or dunning-kruger effect?

Counterpoints:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Mask wearing and physical distancing awareness/measures are not mutually exclusive precautions as you (and others) indicate. 
Many (I would estimate most) mask-wearers also *concurrently* maintain physical distancing.
In contrast, many non-mask wearers I have encountered assert both:
[list type=decimal]
[*]that they are implementing other pandemic measures that are equal-to, or more effective than, wearing a mask; and/or,
[*]that they do not recognize a particular situation as one that health officials have dictated that masks are recommended to be worn (even while squeezing past me at Home Depot).
[/list]
[*]There are more than 3 COVID-19 positive people in Renfrew county.
Per https://www.rcdhu.com/novel-coronavirus-covid-19-2/ there are at least 25 that have been diagnosed through testing.
This diagnosed-positive number is possibly an order of magnitude, or more, less than the true number of infections (owing to low/asymptomatic spread).
People do not stay put in little boxes; either by occupation or recreation you may/may not come in contact with those *not* from your box (Renfrew).
[/list]


----------



## McG

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Count me in the moron population. Masks are recommended, not mandatory in most of Ontario and only recommended when physical distancing isn't possible. I trust myself to maintain enough situational awareness to stay away from people, than completely trusting a non-medical mask. I've never been in a store that's been confined enough for me to think I should be wearing a mask, but maybe I'm just looking at my odds of getting sick from one of the 3 COVID-19 positive people in all of Renfrew County as slim to none.  :dunno:


Consider that it is not about you. Everyone in their own arrogance assumes they are healthy until they are symptomatic, and by that time they have already been a spreader.

You not wearing a mask for factors solely based on impacts to yourself is wantonly inconsiderate of everyone who will share the public while you are there or after you have passed through. The potential consequences, while less immediate, are more severe than chair girl tossing patio furniture from a Toronto balcony.

I have not seen a store yet where people have collectively had the self-discipline to be able to manage 2 m minimum spacing.  I haven’t even seen the ability to maintain 6 ft (pedantic mathematical aside: 2 m rounded to nearest foot is actually 7 ft). But assuming it happens where you are at … If you are obliviously spreading, that mask limits the amount of contamination you depositing on surfaces. If you’re not sick, that mask also works to queue you against reflexive touching of your own face.  Also, that 2 m spacing thing is inadequate the moment somebody coughs.

If you are living in a truly sequestered community then, fine, the whole community can go without masks.  But Renfrew County is not sequestered, and there would not be a pandemic if people were not obliviously spreading and carrying the disease to new places. Everyone not wearing a mask is an accelerant of faster and further spread, which endangers some lives.

… and if that is not enough reason, consider a mask as a gesture of politeness to the store clerks who have probably had to engage with a hundred other people that day who are also too smart to catch COVID.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I just got yelled at by a passerby for wearing a mask, as I was coming out of a health care facility where they mandated masks.

Ironically, he shouted ‘are you trying to kill me?!! Is that why you’re wearing the mask?!!‘

I seriously thought, and secretly hoped, that he was going to take a poke at me. Sadly he just kept going, raving, down the street.

Sigh, maybe next time


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

One of the things not mentioned but also affecting the United States is how unhealthy their population is due to the American "lifestyle".  Hypertension, Diabetes, Obesity etc.  These are all the real killers, COVID is just the fertilizer.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Count me in the moron population. Masks are recommended, not mandatory in most of Ontario and only recommended when physical distancing isn't possible. I trust myself to maintain enough situational awareness to stay away from people, than completely trusting a non-medical mask. I've never been in a store that's been confined enough for me to think I should be wearing a mask, but maybe I'm just looking at my odds of getting sick from one of the 3 COVID-19 positive people in all of Renfrew County as slim to none.  :dunno:



It's questionable whether cloth masks even do anything.  I've read some studies on this and many actual experts say they really do nothing.  They also worry that they create an environment where people think they can go out  and are protected  because they are wearing a mask.

IMO, it's all politics at this point and is just another example of science conflicting with politics. CAF members became sick in LTC homes and I've heard it was asked why they weren't wearing CBRN gear? The answer I've heard given a couple of times is "we don't want to alarm people". 

Again, all about giving off an appearance that makes people feel protected psychologically.  All baloney of course but if people feel better, great!


----------



## PMedMoe

I don't know how many times this has to be said (and it's been covered by CDC, WHO, etc numerous times); the mask doesn't protect you, it protects others.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't know how many times this has to be said (and it's been covered by CDC, WHO, etc numerous times); the mask doesn't protect you, it protects others.



Does it actually though?  I don't think a cloth mask does anything.  I see lots of "News" articles saying this, I see no actual academic papers to back it up.  

There are tonnes of academic studies which talk about "surgical grade" masks having utility but cloth masks are not surgical grade.

I also find it funny that we in the Armed Forces get all this training on CBRN when we first join the Forces and then when an actual CBRN threat presents itself, we have our soldiers working in a CBRN Environment wearing little more than a facemask and some gloves, instead of wearing kit we have and are trained to use.  

Things that don't make sense to me  ???

Edit:

Sorry to say as well, the WHO and CDC have so far been right out of it.  There is some evidence that the WHO aided and abetted the CCP in covering up how bad COVID was.

Especially when they were saying "nothing to see here, low threat" meanwhile I could go on the Darkweb back in Feb and watch videos of CCP members welding entire apartment blocks full of sick people in to their homes.


----------



## mariomike

MCG said:
			
		

> Consider that it is not about you. Everyone in their own arrogance assumes they are healthy until they are symptomatic, and by that time they have already been a spreader.
> 
> You not wearing a mask for factors solely based on impacts to yourself is wantonly inconsiderate of everyone who will share the public while you are there or after you have passed through.





			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I don't know how many times this has to be said (and it's been covered by CDC, WHO, etc numerous times); the mask doesn't protect you, it protects others.



Thank-you both. 



			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> If we could get the 75% of our population, who are morons, to put on the damn facemasks that everyone recommends then we wouldn't have to worry so much about a second wave. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?
> 
> :brickwall:


----------



## PuckChaser

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> This seems to be a common position. Is it possible that this is a result of normalcy/optimistic bias or dunning-kruger effect?
> 
> Counterpoints:
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]Mask wearing and physical distancing awareness/measures are not mutually exclusive precautions as you (and others) indicate.
> Many (I would estimate most) mask-wearers also *concurrently* maintain physical distancing.
> In contrast, many non-mask wearers I have encountered assert both:
> [list type=decimal]
> [*]that they are implementing other pandemic measures that are equal-to, or more effective than, wearing a mask; and/or,
> [*]that they do not recognize a particular situation as one that health officials have dictated that masks are recommended to be worn (even while squeezing past me at Home Depot).
> [/list]
> [*]There are more than 3 COVID-19 positive people in Renfrew county.
> Per https://www.rcdhu.com/novel-coronavirus-covid-19-2/ there are at least 25 that have been diagnosed through testing.
> This diagnosed-positive number is possibly an order of magnitude, or more, less than the true number of infections (owing to low/asymptomatic spread).
> People do not stay put in little boxes; either by occupation or recreation you may/may not come in contact with those *not* from your box (Renfrew).
> [/list]



Masks are to prevent you from passing on COVID-19 because you're asymptomatic. I haven't interacted with anyone other than my 5 person household closer than 6 feet in 3 months. I also can count without using my toes how many times I've been out in public since March Break. If I wash my hands, cough into my sleeve and aren't closer than 6 feet to anyone outside my household, how would I have contracted COVID and been asymptomatic? 

Thanks for pointing out the Renfrew County data that I'm very much aware of and following. It also notes that 22 cases of the 25 are considered resolved, so there's 3 people total in Renfrew County who are either symptomatic or tested positive. Even if you add a 0 to that (giving you an order of magnitude of 10 which is far higher than any estimates of asymptomatic spread), there's 30 COVID-19 positive people out of 89,000 people from Deep River to Arnprior to Barry's Bay.

If masks actually protected others, they'd be mandatory. Any of the lockdowns over the last 3 months are far more draconian than mandatory masks in public. In fact, I'd have preferred they made masks mandatory so we could have opened the economy completely a month ago. You know what would actually protect at-risk individuals? Them not going into stores or in public. You can get everything you need right now via curbside contactless pickup/delivery. 

I'm glad someone brought up the WHO's recommendations, the technical head of their COVID-19 response unit said asymptomatic spread to a secondary individual is rare. We listened to the WHO about not implementing travel bans earlier, but now we shouldn't listen to their leading physician about asymptomatic spread?


----------



## PMedMoe

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Does it actually though?  I don't think a cloth mask does anything.  I see lots of "News" articles saying this, I see no actual academic papers to back it up.
> 
> There are tonnes of academic studies which talk about "surgical grade" masks having utility but cloth masks are not surgical grade.
> 
> I also find it funny that we in the Armed Forces get all this training on CBRN when we first join the Forces and then when an actual CBRN threat presents itself, we have our soldiers working in a CBRN Environment wearing little more than a facemask and some gloves, instead of wearing kit we have and are trained to use.
> 
> Things that don't make sense to me  ???
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Sorry to say as well, the WHO and CDC have so far been right out of it.  There is some evidence that the WHO aided and abetted the CCP in covering up how bad COVID was.
> 
> Especially when they were saying "nothing to see here, low threat" meanwhile I could go on the Darkweb back in Feb and watch videos of CCP members welding entire apartment blocks full of sick people in to their homes.



Maybe you can find something here: https://theconversation.com/masks-help-stop-the-spread-of-coronavirus-the-science-is-simple-and-im-one-of-100-experts-urging-governors-to-require-public-mask-wearing-138507


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Maybe you can find something here: https://theconversation.com/masks-help-stop-the-spread-of-coronavirus-the-science-is-simple-and-im-one-of-100-experts-urging-governors-to-require-public-mask-wearing-138507



None evidence based trials, justified by "it would be unethical to do evidence based trials during a pandemic".

Meanwhile in the real world:

From one month ago, 17% of COVID cases are healthcare workers with the overwhelming majority being nurses. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/health-care-workers-covid-19-alarming-rate-1.5568711

Are you meaning to tell me that healthcare workers, equipped with far better PPE than a cloth mask don't know how to don protective equipment and decon themselves?

So yes, call me a skeptic when I say a cloth mask is little more than a political tool designed to instill false confidence.

The CAF literally deploys us to the crappiest places in the world.  I've gotten a C Difficile Infection on a deployment before, I've had a friend come back from Haiti with an Amoeba in his stomach that went undiagnosed for a year (the base clinic said it was malabsorption  :rofl.  We had soldiers living beside a gigantic poop pond in Afghanistan for a decade.  Those incidents apparently didn't warrant any intervention yet all of a sudden these cloth masks are going to rapidly improve the COVID-19 situation?

Yes I'm skeptical.  Yes I have no doubt the Government will say and do anything to make people feel safe, even if it means lying to them.  The best lies are white lies after all.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I also find it funny that we in the Armed Forces get all this training on CBRN when we first join the Forces and then when an actual CBRN threat presents itself, we have our soldiers working in a CBRN Environment wearing little more than a facemask and some gloves, instead of wearing kit we have and are trained to use.
> 
> Things that don't make sense to me  ???



Well, it makes sense to me.  But, I've had the benefit of experience and training in providing medical care in both "exotic highly contagious disease environment" (no duff) and in NBC environment (simulated).  When med pers are MOPPed up, the care they are able to provide is not much more beyond barely basic first aid and decontamination of casualties.  It's the decontamination of NBC casualties (including biological ones) that permits them to cross the clean/dirty line where they can be treated in either a collective protective shelter or a facility that is in a clear zone.  Once those biological casualites are in a medical facility the protocol is:

https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm8-9.pdf  (page 201)


> SECTION IV - PROTECTION OF HEALTH CARE PERSONNEL
> 
> 404. Use of Barrier Techniques.
> 
> Following decontamination, patients are cared for using standard nursing management
> techniques including universal infectious disease precautions (barrier nursing). Protection of
> medical personnel is offered through use of impermeable surgical gowns/oral-nasal masks/face
> shields or goggles/surgical gloves and observance of universal (body fluid) precautions/barrier
> nursing techniques.



If the protocol has changed significantly, I welcome being corrected.  So the use of "little more than a facemask and some gloves" is not far off the proper procedure for those trained to care for BW patients.  And similarly, much the same for those of us who were trained to work with the containment isolation unit (for highly infectious diseases) when that capability was at NDMC.


----------



## McG

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> None evidence based trials, justified by "it would be unethical to do evidence based trials during a pandemic".


Did you check any of the studies that article directly linked to? Despite not being able to run studies with control groups, there is evidence:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2007800
https://academic.oup.com/jtm/article/27/3/taaa056/5822103
https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.03444
https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v2




			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> From one month ago, 17% of COVID cases are healthcare workers with the overwhelming majority being nurses.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/health-care-workers-covid-19-alarming-rate-1.5568711
> 
> Are you meaning to tell me that healthcare workers, equipped with far better PPE than a cloth mask don't know how to don protective equipment and decon themselves?


Again, the non-medical mask is not to protect the wearer. If you are trying to illustrate that the mask will not protect you, recognize that is not why you should wear it.  It is not PPE for you.  It is protection for the community that you are in.




			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> The CAF literally deploys us to the crappiest places in the world.  I've gotten a C Difficile Infection on a deployment before, I've had a friend come back from Haiti with an Amoeba in his stomach that went undiagnosed for a year (the base clinic said it was malabsorption  :rofl.  We had soldiers living beside a gigantic poop pond in Afghanistan for a decade.  Those incidents apparently didn't warrant any intervention yet all of a sudden these cloth masks are going to rapidly improve the COVID-19 situation?


I don't know what point your anecdotes are trying to make here.


----------



## Remius

Best example I saw was this.


If I’m not wearing pants or underwear and I piss on you you will get covered in piss.  If I’m wearing pants the piss has less chance of reaching you.  You might still get piss on you but the chances go down a lot.  But wearing pants does not mean that I’m protected from naked pissing people.

Wear a mask. Avoid pissing on people.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Before we get too far into mask vs no mask and what makes a difference, the argument is whether or not cloth/homemade/non-medical masks make a difference. 

The medical/scientific studies are irrefutable that N95/medical masks as PPE offer protection both for the wearer and those nearby. And we’re all in agreement that no one wants to be taking them away from the medical staff/locations who require them, not only for COVID-19, but for all other scenarios requiring substantial PPE as well. 

So, out of all the *legitimately-sourced* articles currently out there (and there are tons) discussing the levels at which non-medical masks _actually_ protect either the wearers and/or others, (and yes, there are differing results based on the methods of study used wrt the testing of different materials used for different masks) I have yet to read _*any*_ that state 100%, unequivocally, that masks provide *zero* protection to anyone. So even if the percentage is very small, then what’s so difficult about wearing one if it helps even a little?

One of the main issues with our society is that wearing masks while ill in any capacity isn’t the norm. Whereas several east Asian populations throw them on for anything from having a common cold to protecting themselves from seasonal dusts brought down from the China desert. It would barely be an issue if we were already used to them as a part of societal expectancies/courtesies. 

Edit to add: with the exception of the studies done on homemade masks where the material chosen wasn’t dense enough to prevent even large airborne particles; generally in examples where layers weren’t used.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

MCG said:
			
		

> Did you check any of the studies that article directly linked to? Despite not being able to run studies with control groups, there is evidence:
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2007800
> https://academic.oup.com/jtm/article/27/3/taaa056/5822103
> https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.03444
> https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0203/v2
> 
> Again, the non-medical mask is not to protect the wearer. If you are trying to illustrate that the mask will not protect you, recognize that is not why you should wear it.  It is not PPE for you.  It is protection for the community that you are in.
> 
> I don't know what point your anecdotes are trying to make here.



The anecdote is to show how utterly ridiculous it is to tell someone they MUST wear a cloth mask in public amongst many other illogical policies.  

But then tell them its perfectly alright to do all these other things like go to the grocery store, go to restaurants, go outside at all hours of the day, oh and allow them to have mass protests as well  :rofl:.  

Don't worry, these white circles will protect you from COVID:







Lets not even mention the thousands of transport trucks that still cross the border everyday, with no requirement for any of those truck drivers to quarantine or do anything because it's  "essential travel".  Or allowing foreign workers to come in to the Country because the average Canadian doesn't want to do a job because they are getting CERB.

If you can't see how ridiculous some of these policies are, I don't know what to tell you?

I am all for logical public policy.  I think they should have closed the border down sooner, I think they should have more stringent lockdown policies in Urban Areas where people are in close proximity to one another, I think they should be doing snap randomized testing in the name of Public Safety.  I think we should have gotten ahead with super draconian measures  like NZ and Australia did but mandatory cloth masks?  Who are we kidding?  

I know I'm in the small minority of people with this viewpoint and that's fine.  

One of the unstated outcomes re: the protests is they have probably invalidated the ability for Politicians to close down the economy again. The stock market has already bet that they won't.


----------



## McG

Okay, if your anecdotes about illness on operations and water remediation in Kandahar were supposed to be references to bad policies, then they failed to actually discuss policy.  The stuff you post now is policy, but a red herring. So what if the government has got other policies wrong? 

There is a preponderance of medical and scientific evidence that wearing masks helps prevent community spread. Maybe there could be even more evidence. Maybe the prevailing consensus has it wrong. But so what?  It is no hardship to put on a mask. It is not even a first world inconvenience.

So, wether it is spite for past CAF health coverage, objection to other policies, or just to selfish to be bothered - if you can’t do something of no imposition that medical experts are currently suggesting will save lives and facilitate opening the economy, well that reflects on you as a human.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *New Zealand military to control borders after virus bungle*
> 
> New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern ordered the military to oversee the country's border controls Wednesday after a bungle that allowed two people with the coronavirus to leave quarantine.
> 
> A 24-day run with no new cases was broken Tuesday when it emerged two women who recently arrived from Britain were allowed out of quarantine early without being tested for the virus, even though one had mild symptoms.
> 
> The pair were eventually swabbed and proved to be infected, but only after they made a 650-kilometre (400-mile) road trip from Auckland to Wellington to see a dying relative.
> 
> Ardern said it was "absolutely nonsensical" they were not tested earlier and border controls clearly needed to be tightened to prevent similar failures.
> 
> She said Assistant Chief of Defence Digby Webb had been appointed to oversee border quarantine operations and was being given access to military personnel and logistical expertise.
> 
> "My view is that we need the rigour, we need the confidence, we need the discipline that the military can provide," Ardern told reporters.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/new-zealand-military-to-control-borders-after-virus-bungle-1.4987672
> 
> https://apnews.com/c16cce1e252d39278c0b7b7eea1140a7


----------



## Jarnhamar

Covid hospitalization in Pembroke, another positive case is self isolating.

People are either taking this seriously or don't seem to give a shit. Not that I hope anyone gets sick but if someone has to I hope it's the clowns at the grocery stores that touch everything.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> People are either taking this seriously or don't seem to give a shit.



I recall the outrage over Mayor Tory lowering his mask. And the FDNY paramedics on their outdoor grad parade. 

Some seem to give a ----, others don't.


----------



## daftandbarmy

What COVID-19 Data Can – and Can’t – Tell Us About Leadership

Some governments, especially those led by women, have dealt with the pandemic better than others.

So far, five governments stand out for their overall effectiveness in dealing with the COVID-19 crisis: New Zealand, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Germany and Norway. As of 21 May, all five had registered fewer than 100 deaths per million population. What do they have in common? All five are led by a woman.

Norway, like Denmark, Finland, Iceland and Sweden, belong to the group of Nordic countries. Four of the five registered well below 100 deaths per million population. Sweden, in pursuit of the risky strategy of herd immunity, had almost six times the number of deaths relative to country size. Sweden has a male prime minister. The governments of the other four countries, all doing well, are led by women.

By contrast, the US and UK have some of the highest numbers of confirmed cases and deaths per million people. They may soon be joined or overtaken by Russia and Brazil, going by the trajectory of the pandemic in those two countries. All four countries are led by alpha males who, in the words of my colleague Manfred Kets de Vries, are often hardheaded, opinionated and abusive.
These are surprising findings. The analysis compares eight female political leaders of successful countries with four male leaders heading countries that have so far mishandled the coronavirus threat. But the analysis suffers from the small size of the sample and would not pass strict academic requirements. And leadership is only one criterion among several other variables, although it appears to be a very important one.

https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/what-covid-19-data-can-and-cant-tell-us-about-leadership-14196


----------



## FJAG

Another "mask" adventure for me.

Went to Costco today for the first time this year. They had a lady in full PPE at the door handing out masks to anyone who didn't have one. Sign behind her said "Wearing a mask while shopping is recommended"

A Chad and Karen couple ahead of me took their masks and promptly stuffed them into their pockets and carried on barefaced.  :facepalm:

I'd say about 80% of the folks inside were masked but still a few (mostly younger ones) weren't. A young 10 year old or something, masked; her father, nope!  :facepalm:

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Pretty sure I forgot how to drive.


----------



## Quirky

FJAG said:
			
		

> Another "mask" adventure for me.
> 
> Went to Costco today for the first time this year. They had a lady in full PPE at the door handing out masks to anyone who didn't have one. Sign behind her said "Wearing a mask while shopping is recommended"
> 
> A Chad and Karen couple ahead of me took their masks and promptly stuffed them into their pockets and carried on barefaced.  :facepalm:
> 
> I'd say about 80% of the folks inside were masked but still a few (mostly younger ones) weren't. A young 10 year old or something, masked; her father, nope!  :facepalm:
> 
> :cheers:



Until the recommended is changed to mandatory many people will not wear one.


----------



## CBH99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQLF4DUSXGs


I listened to this earlier, and was pleasantly captivated

Forget any one way in which we all lean in regards to it's seriousness, be open minded, and just hear him out.  I've always enjoyed listening to Bret's talks, well spoken.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Quirky said:
			
		

> Until the recommended is changed to mandatory many people will not wear one.



Well does not help that early on in this, they discouraged mask wearing, mainly I suspect that they neglected to stockpile PPE and where trying to buy time to buy the stuff.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well does not help that early on in this, they discouraged mask wearing, mainly I suspect that they neglected to stockpile PPE and where trying to buy time to buy the stuff.



Yup. Lots of "well the experts said you don't have to wear a mask, who are YOU to disagree with an expert lol". Same with the travel bans the experts said were useless. 

People are afraid to think for themselves and question people in positions of authority. "Experts" aren't above being wrong and clearly not above being influenced. 

With a stockpile of 100,000 masks I'm not surprised we were told they weren't required.


----------



## mariomike

> Why Theresa Tam changed her stance on masks
> https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/why-theresa-tam-changed-her-stance-on-masks/
> 
> Masking has been one of the most contentious conversations throughout this pandemic. For our neighbours south of the border, wearing a mask or the absence of one, is increasingly becoming a political statement.
> 
> Unlike SARS, which had a low risk of transmission until five days after symptoms started, COVID-19 is proving to be infectious before an infected person shows any symptoms. The first suggestion of asymptomatic transmission was reported in early February. Unfortunately, it wasn’t until late March that consistent studies were showing similar patterns of asymptomatic or pre-symtomatic transmission. This recent understanding explains why universal masking wasn’t announced at the outset of the pandemic. Large-scale public health measures can’t be implemented from one case report or a presumed hunch. The explanation for why asymptomatic spread occurs wasn’t published until April 2020 either.
> 
> Full story,
> https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/why-theresa-tam-changed-her-stance-on-masks/





			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Well does not help that early on in this, they discouraged mask wearing, mainly I suspect that they neglected to stockpile PPE and where trying to buy time to buy the stuff.



Canadians can make their own  non-medical mask out of cloth at home to reduce the chance of your respiratory droplets coming into contact with others, or landing on surfaces that others may touch.


----------



## QV

"Meh, this is a very low threat... so many will die... masks don't work... any homemade mask will do... border controls don't work you bigot... sorry, they work but were letting in "irregular migrants" anyway... its super contagious... transmission from asymptomatic people is very rare... wait, no its not... the death rate is high... ignore serology testing that disputes the death rate and do no more testing like that."

Any wonder why there is a mixed reaction to this? Our public health officials and the government really dropped the ball on the messaging.  The media does not help.  Trust is lacking.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Start of a post:



> Einstein on “The Science”
> 
> For those who, in the context of, say, COVID-19 or climate change chant the mantra about relying on “The Science”, consider this from the great physicist, at p. 233 of _Berlin in Lights: The Diaries of Count Harry Kessler, 1918-1937_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thursday, 18 December 1924 Berlin
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/06/19/einstein-on-the-science/
Click to expand...


Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:
			
		

> "Meh, this is a very low threat... so many will die... masks don't work... any homemade mask will do... border controls don't work you bigot... sorry, they work but were letting in "irregular migrants" anyway... its super contagious... transmission from asymptomatic people is very rare... wait, no its not... the death rate is high... ignore serology testing that disputes the death rate and do no more testing like that."
> 
> Any wonder why there is a mixed reaction to this? Our public health officials and the government really dropped the ball on the messaging.  The media does not help.  Trust is lacking.



I'm glad you can obviously just jump into a space shuttle and fly it.....they "did not drop the ball", they were dealing with a total unknown, and had to fly by the seat of their pants.  The only ones that "dropped the ball" was the CCP in lying through their teeth to the WHO and the rest of the world.

Those who can complain about how information went back and forth are just using that to "prove" some agenda.  Its small comfort to those who lost someone but this could have been 1918 all over again......or maybe not.  I'm glad we'll never know.


----------



## QV

I'm sorry Bruce, but I don't accept the waffling on this.  It's been reported western governments knew about the pandemic as it developed at origin late last year.  That, along with the open source news and video reports from the epicentre, should have prompted a more measured and serious response at the outset.  But recall, some people were labelled racists for closing borders or banning flights earlier than others.  Identity politics and PC culture has infected government decisions to our detriment, making us slow to respond correctly.  They were not dealing with a total unknown, they were dealing with a highly contagious virus of unknown lethality they knew affects your respiratory system.  We have experts and organizations expressly for that exact purpose.  Considering the other pandemics, you'd think we would have a little more planning/prep in place for when it occurs again.  I won't even get into relying on the accuracy of information coming from the CCP, who we sent a few tonnes of PPE to that turned out we needed here. This whole COVID scene is a goat rodeo.              

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-canadian-military-intelligence-wuhan-1.5528381

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/covid-19-a-failure-of-early-warning-for-canada-intelligence-expert-says-1.4893558

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/intel-agencies-covid-november/index.html


----------



## Remius

QV said:
			
		

> They were not dealing with a total unknown, they were dealing with a highly contagious virus of unknown lethality they knew affects your respiratory system.  We have experts and organizations expressly for that exact purpose.  Considering the other pandemics, you'd think we would have a little more planning/prep in place for when it occurs again.  I won't even get into relying on the accuracy of information coming from the CCP, who we sent a few tonnes of PPE to that turned out we needed here. This whole COVID scene is a goat rodeo.



Yes they were,  the name Novel means new.  As in never seen before.  All they knew is that it seems to attack the respiratory system.  How it was transmitted, the effects, the immunity, the incubation period, the full effects, who it affects etc etc all unknown or very little known and understood.  They still don’t know everything.  It might actually be a blood infection.  We might not be developing anti bodies.  We don’t know how it mutates.  Etc etc.

What other pandemics?  The last one was over a hundred years ago back when viruses couldn’t travel the world at 36,000 feet within 24hrs. 

People watch too much Star Trek and think we can solve this thing in a 1hr episode.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> Yes they were,  the name Novel means new.  As in never seen before.  All they knew is that it seems to attack the respiratory system.  How it was transmitted, the effects, the immunity, the incubation period, the full effects, who it affects etc etc all unknown or very little known and understood.  They still don’t know everything.  It might actually be a blood infection.  We might not be developing anti bodies.  We don’t know how it mutates.  Etc etc.
> 
> What other pandemics?  The last one was over a hundred years ago back when viruses couldn’t travel the world at 36,000 feet within 24hrs.
> 
> People watch too much Star Trek and think we can solve this thing in a 1hr episode.



Incorrect.

The last pandemic was just a few years ago, the reason this one is getting so much attention is because it is affecting developed and rich countries more so than developing countries.

It is also affecting old people with money, economic and political power, which is why Governments are fighting so hard to get it under control.  

The provinces that have done the best during this crisis were ones that took early and effective action containing this virus.  British Columbia never shut down as much as Ontario or Quebec and have recovered sooner even though they had many of the initial cases.

The Provincial Health Authorities here did a good job instituting some common sense measures and were proactive as opposed to reactive.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Incorrect.
> 
> The last pandemic was just a few years ago, the reason this one is getting so much attention is because it is affecting developed and rich countries more so than developing countries.
> 
> It is also affecting old people with money, economic and political power, which is why Governments are fighting so hard to get it under control.
> 
> The provinces that have done the best during this crisis were ones that took early and effective action containing this virus.  British Columbia never shut down as much as Ontario or Quebec and have recovered sooner even though they had many of the initial cases.
> 
> The Provincial Health Authorities here did a good job instituting some common sense measures and were proactive as opposed to reactive.



Which pandemic was that?  Or do you mean epidemic?  Two different things.


----------



## Brash

Remius said:
			
		

> Which pandemic was that?  Or do you mean epidemic?  Two different things.



Swine flu.
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic


----------



## Remius

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> Swine flu.
> Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic



Standing corrected.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brashendeavours said:
			
		

> Swine flu.
> Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic



Yep, HIV is another. Although some in the West and the WHO call it a global "epidemic" as opposed to pandemic.  770,000 people died of complications related to HIV in 2018, in 2000 it was 1.4 million.


----------



## Cronicbny

The redacted report from CNO into the circumstances surrounding COVID outbreak in THEODORE ROOSEVELT is public


https://www.secnav.navy.mil/foia/readingroom/HotTopics/TR%20INVESTIGATION/TR%20CI%20Report%20with%20CNO%20Endorsement%20(Redacted%20for%20release).pdf

Interesting conclusions


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I would love to see his higher ups operate a carrier with proper social distancing. I note there is not to much criticism of anyone above him.


----------



## FJAG

Just an aside on a related/unrelated matter and because I happen to be watching a video on Marcus Aurelius. Did you know that the first instance of a smallpox plague hit Europe came in waves during 165 to 180 AD where it was known as the Antonine Plague and which is estimated to have killed some 5 million or 1/4 to 1/3 of those infected with it.

There is speculation that it was related to the earlier plagues of 146 to 189 AD in ta-da-dum -- China. Seems the WHO was a bit late on that one too.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Plague

 :cheers:


----------



## Cloud Cover

Aha!!! There appears to be a pattern here:

"The third plague pandemic was a major bubonic plague pandemic that began in Yunnan, China, in 1855 during the fifth year of the Xianfeng Emperor of the Qing dynasty..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_plague_pandemic


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Florida sets another single-day coronavirus record with more than 4,000 new cases*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-coronavirus-cases-another-single-day-record-more-than-4000/
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-sets-record-covid-19-cases-4000/story?id=71363527
> 
> https://apnews.com/c17d42e22801e3defc4435efad01f36b


----------



## Edward Campbell

:highjack: ... but FJAG started it.  :tsktsk:

It seems to me (not my field of study) that disease and plagues went in all directions. Asia *seems* to have developed a "*herd immunity*" to many diseases in pre-historic times ~ possibly because, even more than 10,000 years ago, there were relatively large, densely populated communities in a few river valleys and animals were domesticated early in Asia. Europe had fewer large communities and it took longer to become immune to _*some*_ diseases. North America and Australia (even in the 16th century) had small, nomadic, stone age populations that were devastated by "_imported_" diseases to which even the Europeans were immune. But it also appears that Europe imported some new diseases from America and then spread them to South and East Asia, too. The histories of both the British and Dutch East India Companies (_John Company_ and _Jan Company_) have several accounts (17th and 18th century) of sudden outbreaks of disease that hit the locals, hard, but which seemed to pass over the Europeans. It _*seems*_ that "*herd immunity*" worked both ways and the Europeans were immune to some diseases and the Asians were not.


----------



## OldSolduer

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :highjack: ... but FJAG started it.  :tsktsk:
> 
> It seems to me (not my field of study) that disease and plagues went in all directions. Asia *seems* to have developed a "*herd immunity*" to many diseases in pre-historic times ~ possibly because, even more than 10,000 years ago, there were relatively large, densely populated communities in a few river valleys and animals were domesticated early in Asia. Europe had fewer large communities and it took longer to become immune to _*some*_ diseases. North America and Australia (even in the 16th century) had small, nomadic, stone age populations that were devastated by "_imported_" diseases to which even the Europeans were immune. But it also appears that Europe imported some new diseases from America and then spread them to South and East Asia, too. The histories of both the British and Dutch East India Companies (_John Company_ and _Jan Company_) have several accounts (17th and 18th century) of sudden outbreaks of disease that hit the locals, hard, but which seemed to pass over the Europeans. It _*seems*_ that "*herd immunity*" worked both ways and the Europeans were immune to some diseases and the Asians were not.



Its good to see you on here.  :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Relieved to hear that just because I was called a 'mutant' during training that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing 


COVID-19 Will Mutate — What That Means for a Vaccine

The new coronavirus is an RNA virus: a collection of genetic material packed inside a protein shell.

Once an RNA virus makes contact with a host, it starts to make new copies of itself that can go on to infect other cells.

RNA viruses, like the flu and measles, are more prone to changes and mutations compared with DNA viruses, such as herpes, smallpox, and human papillomavirus (HPV).

“In the world of RNA viruses, change is the norm. We expect RNA viruses to change frequently. That’s just their nature,” said Dr. Mark Schleiss, a pediatric infectious disease specialist and investigator with the Institute for Molecular Virology at the University of Minnesota.

SARS-CoV-2 is no exception, and over the past few months it has been mutating.

But the virus has mutated at a very slow pace. And when it does mutate, the new copies aren’t far off from the original virus.

“The sequences of the original isolates from China are very close to those in viruses circulating in the U.S. and the rest of the world,” said Dr. John Rose, a senior research scientist in the department of pathology at Yale Medicine who’s helping develop a COVID-19 vaccine.

A new study from the Scripps Research Institute in Florida suggests the new coronavirus has mutated into a variant that’s more infectious.

The mutation — named “the D614G mutation” — occurred on the spike protein, the part of the virus that helps it bind and fuse to our cells. The D614G mutation makes it easier for the virus to infect our cells.

The Scripps researchers aren’t the first to identify the tiny mutation on the spike protein.

In March, researchers from the Los Alamos National Laboratory announced they detected the D614G mutation, and that it was likely responsible for most infections reported in Europe and the United States.

In total, the researchers identified 14 strains of SARS-CoV-2 and released their findings to help those working on vaccines and treatments.

That being said, the new dominant strain identified does seem to be more infectious in laboratory settings. Scientists are now trying to understand how the variation behaves in the body — which may be very different from lab settings.

It’s still unclear whether the mutation causes a more severe illness or increases the risk of death.

It’s also unclear whether the new mutation infects and sickens people differently. At this time, the illness and hospitalization rates caused by the new variation seems to be similar.

More data is needed to understand the implications of the new mutations, like whether reinfections after recovery are possible, and whether the changes could affect the vaccines and treatments in development.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-to-know-about-mutation-and-covid-19#More-infectious


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Relieved to hear that just because I was called a 'mutant' during training that it wasn't necessarily a bad thing



So do questions remain as to whether you're more effective in a lab setting or in real life?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Florida virus infection total passes 100,000*
> 
> Florida reached the milestone Monday morning, as public health officials reissued advisories urging social distancing and mask-wearing, and as some businesses reevaluate their decisions to reopen. More than 3,100 people in Florida have died.
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/816976a6bf845ae942ea9d5f1c3d9393


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> So do questions remain as to whether you're more effective in a lab setting or in real life?



I'm not a big fan of dogs, so I guess 'real life'?


----------



## daftandbarmy

More Canadians are refusing work due to COVID-19 — but it's tough to get authorities to agree

All provinces have laws allowing people to refuse dangerous work. But a general fear of contracting COVID-19 is not enough to justify a work refusal, and neither are the risks associated with travelling to-and-from work, illustrating the challenges Canadians face as they balance exposure to the virus with getting back to the office or factory floor.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/work-refusal-safety-covid-1.5617787


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> All provinces have laws allowing people to refuse dangerous work.



Never saw one. But, I only heard of one work refusal during my career. Eight guys refused to go in service when they booked on. All at the same time. 

It was during Ebola, and concerned lack of PPE.

They were immediately ordered back in service. From what I understand, they were only out of service for a few minutes.

That's the only work refusal we ever had during my time.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Never saw one. But, I only heard of one work refusal during my career. Eight guys refused to go in service when they booked on. All at the same time.
> 
> It was during Ebola, and concerned lack of PPE.
> 
> They were immediately ordered back in service. From what I understand, they were only out of service for a few minutes.
> 
> That's the only work refusal we ever had during my time.



Something I found from CUPE:

British Columbia

As a worker in British Columbia, you must not carry out work or cause work to be carried out if you believe a work process, or operation of a tool or equipment, would create an imminent danger to yourself or others, according to the Workers’ Compensation Act (Occupational Health and Safety Regulation, Section 3.12).

https://cupe.ca/refusing-unsafe-work-step-step-guide#:~:text=As%20a%20worker%20in%20British,Safety%20Regulation%2C%20Section%203.12).


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> More Canadians are refusing work due to COVID-19 — but it's tough to get authorities to agree
> 
> All provinces have laws allowing people to refuse dangerous work. But a general fear of contracting COVID-19 is not enough to justify a work refusal, and neither are the risks associated with travelling to-and-from work, illustrating the challenges Canadians face as they balance exposure to the virus with getting back to the office or factory floor.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/work-refusal-safety-covid-1.5617787



Anecdotal:

My colleague’s husband is a mechanic for a car dealership.  They’ve remained open but he takes care of of his immune compromised elderly mother so hasn’t returned to work.

A restaurant we support moved to an online delivery and take out.  They can’t get enough workers to return.  Most of them students/millennials who are on CERB.  Most likely for the summer.  They aren’t returning the owner’s calls.  He can’t find anyone to work. 

My son is applying for his first summer jobs and people are looking to hire because CERB recipients might be riding out the summer on CERB. 

My brother in law is on CERB.  Hasn’t worked a day since last summer when he was laid off and went back to school.  Still isn’t working.  Not sure what he is spending his CERB on since he lives with his parents right now.  (He’s 43).

My neighbours are chomping at the bit to get back to work.  They were both laid off from airlines.  They took the employer salary assistance instead of CERB.

The after action report on all of this will be fascinating and hard to decipher given so many situations.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Something I found from CUPE:
> 
> British Columbia
> 
> As a worker in British Columbia, you must not carry out work or cause work to be carried out if you believe a work process, or operation of a tool or equipment, would create an imminent danger to yourself or others, according to the Workers’ Compensation Act (Occupational Health and Safety Regulation, Section 3.12).
> 
> https://cupe.ca/refusing-unsafe-work-step-step-guide#:~:text=As%20a%20worker%20in%20British,Safety%20Regulation%2C%20Section%203.12).



That would have been a handy card to play during SARS.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Public Health Ontario suffered exodus of senior leaders and budget cuts before the COVID-19 pandemic struck

Thirteen years ago, Dr. Natasha Crowcroft, a Cambridge-trained physician and expert in infectious disease surveillance, moved to Toronto from London to help rebuild Ontario’s public health system after SARS. For 11 years, Crowcroft worked inside the agency known as Public Health Ontario (PHO) in a series of progressively more senior roles. During the 2009 H1N1 pandemic, she led the agency’s surveillance epidemiology group. Last year, in April, she was named PHO’s chief science officer and senior scientist.

The public health system Crowcroft found in Ontario was “a bit of a dog’s breakfast,” she said. Over the years, there were constant squabbles between the Ministry of Health and PHO about issues like jurisdiction and independence. Crowcroft wasn’t shocked by any of that. To an extent, it just goes with the territory in her field. “Governments really don’t like independent public health organizations that evaluate what’s going on and tell them when they’re not doing things right,” she said. They’re constantly trying to trim their wings and pull them back into the cage.

“I sometimes say it’s a bit like the Death Star in Star Wars,” Crowcroft said. “You know you have to do everything you can not to get sucked into the tractor beam.”

For all her frustrations, Crowcroft enjoyed working in public health. She thinks it’s vitally important work, and interesting too. But two years ago, after the election of Doug Ford’s Progressive Conservative government, the situation at Public Health Ontario, and in the Ontario public health system at large, began to deteriorate, she said.

It's a bit like the Death Star

The Ford government quickly froze PHO’s budget and signalled that deeper cuts, to PHO and local health units, were on the way. The new administration also proved uninterested in some core public health missions, things like basic science. That hostility isn’t entirely new. Some of it predates this government. “But it did get worse under this government,” Crowcroft said. “The government has made it almost impossible for science to function within a public health organization.”

It wasn’t just science, either. Public Health Ontario was set up as an independent agency as a response to Ontario’s failures during SARS. Crowcroft was specifically recruited to help with that effort. But the new government didn’t want to hear about that part of PHO’s history and mission, according to Crowcroft. “The other message that was around before this happened was that people were saying, ‘Don’t talk about SARS anymore. The government doesn’t want to hear about SARS,” she said, “which is supremely ironic right now.”

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/covid-19-public-health-ontario-budget-cuts/wcm/afb5b715-cfe0-470f-baa1-e3d33c880248/


----------



## lenaitch

There were several 'right-sizing' initiatives announced by the current government, including public health agencies.  It will be interesting to see if that one gets quietly forgotten.  Agency heads, deputy ministers, etc. are appointed with a mandate (marching orders) and it is clear that this current government's underlying theme was cost cutting - service delivery bedamned.

The conflict she speaks of is nothing new, be it public health, policing or military.  The same conflict has been leveled at Boeing - engineers vs. accountants.  The professional subject matter experts are viewed as not adequately equipped to manage 'the big picture' and the professional bureaucrats are viewed as not understanding the core service/business.  My experience is that SMEs, while perhaps not schooled in the bureaucratic game, at least give it a good try.  The professional bureaucrats just figure they are smarter than everybody else, especially the whinny [fill in the blank; doctors, cops, engineers, etc.]


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Some states break virus records as US caseload grows anew*
> 
> Coronavirus hospitalizations and caseloads hit new highs in over a half-dozen states as signs of the virus’ resurgence mounted, with newly confirmed infections nationwide back near their peak level of two months ago.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/32cb14de009bfff91bc76a967323c621
> 
> 
> ... the United States recorded the second-largest increase in coronavirus cases since the health crisis began, with a rise of 35,588 new infections on Tuesday, as a dozen states saw infections surge, according to a Reuters tally.
> 
> Florida saw a record increase on Wednesday of over 5,500 new cases. On Tuesday, Arizona, California, Mississippi and Nevada had record rises. Texas set a record on Monday.
> 
> New York has lowered its infection rate after locking down much of its economy.
> 
> The surge in cases on Tuesday was the highest since a record of 36,426 new infections on April 24.
> 
> While the United States appeared to have curbed the outbreak in May, leading many states to lift restrictions on social and economic activity, the virus is moving into rural areas and other places that it had not initially penetrated deeply.
> 
> The virus is also renewing its surge in states that opened up early to ease the devastating effect of the restrictions on local economies.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/new-york-new-jersey-connecticut-to-quarantine-visitors-from-coronavirus-hot-spot-states-idUSKBN23V2EA


----------



## brihard

The US numbers are getting ugly. Yesterday came a few hundred new cases shy of being their worst day yet, and the seven day moving average yesterday also came within a hair of setting a new record- it'll probably break it today if numbers are at all like yesterday's. A number of states are also seeing record counts of new cases as well as record high (and increasing) moving averages (the 7 day average help to smooth out daily variance, e.g., American numbers tend to drop significantly over the weekend and then peak on Tuesdays). Texas, Florida, California, Arizona, and Georgia all particularly stand out for a sharp increase in the past week and high new case counts that make it very clear that there's widespread community transmission. Watch for deaths to really start spiking again in about a week. A number of other states also look to be spiking, though with lower total numbers so they don't yet stand out as much... Bu the growth rates are ugly.



			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> Key word here is "Predicts". There were some crazy prediction numbers in the first two-three months, for death numbers in particular. None of that came true as they overestimated the death rate. After all these protests, if we don't see a large number of people dropping dead, we know this was just a big fraud. Our own government has encouraged protests and large gatherings as it's been deemed more essential that health and safety. "White privilege" is now a greater threat than COVID-19, according to health experts.



I wanted to revisit this reply from 12 days ago, at which point a CDC prediction of 130k deaths in the US resulted in some scornful replies about predictions. We're now sitting with total numbers up to June 24th, with total deaths in the US as of last night of 124,281. Seven day moving average of deaths had been dropping for a while but has flattened in the past week, and will likely increase if it trails the new cases by about ten-twelve days as is generally has. Yesterday the 7d MA for deaths was at 620 a day. Sadly, that puts the US exactly on track for about 130k deaths on the 4th of July, assuming it stays flat and doesn't increase- but either way it'll be in the ballpark.

I would respectfully suggest that as better data has continued to come in and modeling has improved, perhaps we might allow ourselves to be more informed and persuaded by the epidemiological experts' modelling projections. There is vastly more data and knowledge now than there was in late March. Predictions with shorter time frames in particular seem to be increasingly reliable and accurate.

Denying the severity of this, or decreasing/limiting testing to artificially deflate case numbers as some political leadership have suggested doing, does not ultimately reduce the number of people who end up dead of this virus or of related public health problems. On the contrary, the more aggressively the variables can have values assigned to them, the better the public health response will be. The wave that we see increasing now may be more of a spread out steady burn than the flare up we saw in New York, and may be harder to stomp out. It also is affecting states that in some cases seem to put up greater political resistance to unenjoyable public health measures and regulations. That could inhibit public willingness to comply with responses.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *US virus cases continue to rise at near-record rate*
> 
> The number of new coronavirus cases per day in the U.S. stood near an all-time high Thursday, hovering close to the peak reached in late April during some of the darkest and deadliest days of the crisis.
> 
> While greatly expanded testing probably accounts for some of the increase, experts say other measures indicate the virus is making a comeback. Daily deaths, hospitalizations and the percentage of tests that are coming back positive for the virus have also have been rising over the past few weeks in parts of the country.
> 
> The 34,300 COVID-19 cases recorded Wednesday were slightly fewer than the day before, but still near the high of 36,400 reached on April 24, according to a count kept by Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/778da4a2da7e5d9d12e6105c012b8cf9





> *US health officials believe 20M Americans have had virus*
> 
> U.S. officials believe as many as 20 million Americans have contracted the coronavirus, suggesting millions had the virus and never knew it.
> 
> That’s nearly 10 times as many infections as the 2.3 million cases that have been confirmed and comes as the Trump administration works to tamp down nationwide concern about the COVID-19 pandemic as about a dozen states are seeing worrisome increases in cases.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/9d742ebaf97612860438dd3890dc810e
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-cases/coronavirus-may-have-infected-10-times-more-americans-than-reported-cdc-says-idUSKBN23W2PU





> *Texas halts reopening amid surge in coronavirus cases*
> 
> ...
> 
> The state now has almost twice as many people hospitalized with COVID-19 as it did on June 14, when the number was at 2,287. This spike occurred after restaurants were allowed to increase capacity to 75% and almost all businesses allowed to operate with some safety measures in place.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-coronavirus-reopening-halted-cases-governor-greg-abbott/
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/texas-putting-reopening-pause-virus-cases-soar-71451652
> 
> https://apnews.com/3eacbd49242600940470bfe8ed833880
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/texas-calls-halt-to-reopening-as-new-u-s-coronavirus-cases-surge-idUSKBN23W2I6


----------



## Retired AF Guy

And here in Kingston (On), in the last three days we had nine new cases(including five today); the biggest increase since early April. 

Source: KFLA Public Health

Not big numbers compared to many other places, but it will be interesting to see if the infections continue/increase.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm pretty happy with the government maintaining our closed borders (more or less) with the US.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Sweden is doubling down on their COVID-19 Strategy.



> Sweden's COVID expert says 'world went mad' with lockdowns
> 
> Niclas Rolander, Bloomberg News
> 
> The man behind Sweden’s controversial COVID-19 strategy has characterized lockdowns imposed across much of the globe as a form of “madness” that flies in the face of what is known about handling viral outbreaks.
> 
> Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, said he advised against such restrictions on movement because of the detrimental side effects they often entail.
> 
> “It was as if the world had gone mad, and everything we had discussed was forgotten,” Tegnell said in a podcast with Swedish Radio on Wednesday. “The cases became too many and the political pressure got too strong. And then Sweden stood there rather alone.”
> 
> Tegnell admits he misjudged the deadly potential of the coronavirus in its early stages, but has refused to consider abandoning his strategy. He says restricting movement to the radical extent seen across much of the globe can create other problems, including increased domestic abuse, loneliness and mass unemployment.
> 
> “In the same way that all drugs have side effects, measures against a pandemic also have negative effects,” he said. “At an authority like ours, which works with a broad spectrum of public health issues, it is natural to take these aspects into account.”
> 
> But Sweden now has one of the world’s highest COVID-19 mortality rates, with more deaths per 100,000 than the U.S., according to Johns Hopkins University data. Polls suggest Swedes have started to lose faith in their country’s response to the pandemic.
> 
> Instead of shuttering schools, shops and restaurants, Sweden left pretty much everything open. Citizens were encouraged to observe social distancing guidelines, but the strategy assumed Swedes would voluntarily alter their behavior without the need for laws.
> 
> Tegnell also advised against using face masks, arguing there’s little scientific evidence they work. And he says it’s clear that closing down schools was an unnecessary response to the pandemic, a notion that’s actually supported in a recent French study.
> 
> Tegnell’s underlying argument is that COVID-19 isn’t going away any time soon, meaning sudden, severe lockdowns will ultimately prove ineffective in addressing the longer-term threat. Meanwhile, the virus has recently resurfaced in a number of places where authorities thought they’d brought it under control, including Beijing.
> 
> “I’m looking forward to a more serious evaluation of our work than has been made so far,” Tegnell said. “There is no way of knowing how this ends.”
> 
> Sweden’s parliament has agreed to have a commission probe the government’s response to the COVID crisis. The results of the investigation are due to be published in early 2022, before the next general election. Recent polls show that Prime Minister Stefan Lofven, who heads a minority center-left coalition, has seen his voter approval ratings slump amid concerns about the country’s COVID policy.



https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/sweden-s-covid-expert-says-world-went-mad-with-lockdowns-1.1455315

What I am interested in is the projections.  Sweden got initially bombed and had a very high mortality rate but the number of deaths per day has rapidly declined in Sweden.  They've also have one of the lowest testing rates in Europe.  They also suffer from a similar problem to us with privatized LTC homes which I've read exacerbated the issue.  

It's too early to tell whether their strategy will be effective or not but this is a marathon, not a sprint and we are already seeing the disease rapidly reappear in certain cases, as lockdowns are lifted.

Projections and Swedish Stats:

https://covid19.healthdata.org/sweden


----------



## Kat Stevens

RCMP have busted a few American tourists in Banf-f-f and Jasper who got into Canada by saying they were just passing straight through on their way to Alaska.


----------



## Quirky

Target Up said:
			
		

> RCMP have busted a few American tourists in Banf-f-f and Jasper who got into Canada by saying they were just passing straight through on their way to Alaska.



There should be one port of entry into each province from the US, along with a designated highway route. Don't like following the rules, find another way to Alaska.


----------



## Good2Golf

Target Up said:
			
		

> RCMP have busted a few American tourists in Banf-f-f and Jasper who got into Canada by saying they were just passing straight through on their way to Alaska.



...because Seattle-Anchorage flights + rental car in Anchorage is unpossible.


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...because Seattle-Anchorage flights + rental car in Anchorage is unpossible.



When I lived on the Alaska Highway for a few years we had a lot of military transiting back and forth on postings. Plenty of others would go up there to work for a few years as well.


----------



## CBH99

I spent a summer in the Yukon a few years back, and drove up into Alaska on a regular basis.

Not sure about how the border is now, but back then I loved the 'good faith broken phone' on the side of the road - added to the charm of the whole region.  (One of the best summers I've ever had was in Yukon/Alaska, was great!)



Just remember driving up to the border for the first time, only to see a sign "Please use phone to call Customs."  Or something to that affect.

So I pulled over.  Picked up the phone.  Dead.  Nadda.  Zilch.

Someone else passing by slowed down and said "That phone has been broken for ages..."



And, that was it.  Just kept driving.  Right into Alaska.   :nod:   :dunno:   

I think there was a Canadian customs officer on the way back into Canada...but going into Alaska, easy to drive right by the 'Customs phone' and not even notice it if you weren't paying attention


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I spent a summer in the Yukon a few years back, and drove up into Alaska on a regular basis.
> 
> Not sure about how the border is now, but back then I loved the 'good faith broken phone' on the side of the road - added to the charm of the whole region.  (One of the best summers I've ever had was in Yukon/Alaska, was great!)
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember driving up to the border for the first time, only to see a sign "Please use phone to call Customs."  Or something to that affect.
> 
> So I pulled over.  Picked up the phone.  Dead.  Nadda.  Zilch.
> 
> Someone else passing by slowed down and said "That phone has been broken for ages..."
> 
> 
> 
> And, that was it.  Just kept driving.  Right into Alaska.   :nod:   :dunno:
> 
> I think there was a Canadian customs officer on the way back into Canada...but going into Alaska, easy to drive right by the 'Customs phone' and not even notice it if you weren't paying attention



Beaver Creek?


----------



## CBH99

I honestly can't remember, it was ages ago.

I drove up to check out Skagway, where the cruise ships come in.  Take in the town, play tourist for a while.  


Drove in via _*I believe*_ the main highway from Whitehorse to Skagway.


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I honestly can't remember, it was ages ago.
> 
> I drove up to check out Skagway, where the cruise ships come in.  Take in the town, play tourist for a while.
> 
> 
> Drove in via _*I believe*_ the main highway from Whitehorse to Skagway.



OK, yup, I know it well. That's a beautiful drive., I did it several times. Funny how there's that little corner of BC that you can only access through the Yukon. The border is no longer as you describe it- fully built up and properly manned on both sides now.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brihard said:
			
		

> When I lived on the Alaska Highway for a few years we had a lot of military transiting back and forth on postings. Plenty of others would go up there to work for a few years as well.



Sorry Brihard, I forgot to add the Princess Bride meme and Urban Dictionary definition for ‘Un-possible.’ ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Only in the UK can you claim to be a hermit while living beside a railway line 

Splendid isolation: in search of Scotland's hermits

Many isolated people have struggled in lockdown, but others enjoy solitude and choose it as a way of life. Here, Elliot Caunce portrays four modern hermits who live off the grid in Scotland

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/jun/25/splendid-isolation-in-search-of-scotlands-hermits


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. sets new daily high of 40,000 coronavirus cases*
> 
> The number of confirmed new coronavirus cases per day in the U.S. hit an all-time high of 40,000 Friday -- eclipsing the mark set during one of the deadliest stretches in late April -- in a resurgence that has led some governors to backtrack or at least pause the reopening of their states.
> 
> While the increase is believed to reflect, in part, greatly expanded testing, experts say there is ample evidence the virus is making a comeback, including rising deaths and hospitalizations in parts of the country, especially in the South and West. Arizona, Texas and Florida are among the states that have been hit hard.
> 
> The number of confirmed infections soared past the previous high set on April 24 of 36,400, according to the count kept by Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/u-s-sets-new-daily-high-of-40-000-coronavirus-cases-1.5001071
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-confirmed-new-cases-record-high-us/
> 
> https://apnews.com/5bc6644329af546be3b06763da8abd29





> *Florida bans drinking at bars as daily coronavirus cases approach 9,000*
> 
> The Florida agency that governs bars announced the ban on Twitter, minutes after the Department of Health reported 8,942 new confirmed cases, topping the previous record of 5,500 set Wednesday.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/florida-bans-drinking-at-bars-as-daily-coronavirus-cases-approach-9-000-1.5001339
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7112437/coronavirus-cases-florida-spike/
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bars-in-florida-closing-alcohol-ban-coronavirus-cases-climb/
> 
> https://apnews.com/031e414ac08dcbb54adf66a8174d2019


----------



## daftandbarmy

Microsoft to permanently close all of its retail stores

Microsoft is giving up on physical retail. Today the company announced plans to permanently close all Microsoft Store locations in the United States and around the world, except for four locations that will be “reimagined” as experience centers that no longer sell products. 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21297400/microsoft-retail-stores-closing-cities-open?fbclid=IwAR3ppuRQ6S55zLE8r2pJLtieA-8SDA1uWDz9YHBQnsQhjJfClhIfU99xth8


----------



## brihard

Bloody hell. Their previous daily high was around 5500 a couple days ago, and tey're at just about 9000 for today. That's a huge spike.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Microsoft to permanently close all of its retail stores
> 
> Microsoft is giving up on physical retail. Today the company announced plans to permanently close all Microsoft Store locations in the United States and around the world, except for four locations that will be “reimagined” as experience centers that no longer sell products.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21297400/microsoft-retail-stores-closing-cities-open?fbclid=IwAR3ppuRQ6S55zLE8r2pJLtieA-8SDA1uWDz9YHBQnsQhjJfClhIfU99xth8




I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but when was the last time any of us bought anything from a Microsoft store?   rly:



I have a relatively new PC, runs on Windows.  I have to BUY - yes, BUY - Microsoft Word, on a subscription basis.  I just bought a new computer, and I have to PAY extra to do basic word processing on it?

I also have an iPad.  Came with everything I needed.  Super easy to use.  No hassle.  And it's smarter than I am...I forget to save something before closing the program?  No worries, it saved automatically.  Need to attach the document to an e-mail or something?  I push 2 'buttons' and it's done.


Microsoft has been chasing after big government contracts for a long time, and has completely forgotten about us little plebs who just need a working PC.   :2c:


----------



## dapaterson

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but when was the last time any of us bought anything from a Microsoft store?   rly:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a relatively new PC, runs on Windows.  I have to BUY - yes, BUY - Microsoft Word, on a subscription basis.  I just bought a new computer, and I have to PAY extra to do basic word processing on it?
> 
> I also have an iPad.  Came with everything I needed.  Super easy to use.  No hassle.  And it's smarter than I am...I forget to save something before closing the program?  No worries, it saved automatically.  Need to attach the document to an e-mail or something?  I push 2 'buttons' and it's done.
> 
> 
> Microsoft has been chasing after big government contracts for a long time, and has completely forgotten about us little plebs who just need a working PC.   :2c:



I'm a fan of LibreOffice - free as in beer software.


----------



## Kat Stevens

openoffice.org for the win


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

If I can get any program to open I'm happy with myself......


----------



## FJAG

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but when was the last time any of us bought anything from a Microsoft store?   rly:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a relatively new PC, runs on Windows.  I have to BUY - yes, BUY - Microsoft Word, on a subscription basis.  I just bought a new computer, and I have to PAY extra to do basic word processing on it?
> 
> I also have an iPad.  Came with everything I needed.  Super easy to use.  No hassle.  And it's smarter than I am...I forget to save something before closing the program?  No worries, it saved automatically.  Need to attach the document to an e-mail or something?  I push 2 'buttons' and it's done.
> 
> 
> Microsoft has been chasing after big government contracts for a long time, and has completely forgotten about us little plebs who just need a working PC.   :2c:



I still have a licence for MS Office Pro 2007 which has now been moved from three predecessor computers and it still works fine (although I have much less use for Access or PowerPoint these days  ;D)

For my writing I use Scrivener but MSWord2007 for the odd letter I write.

I absolutely refuse to buy any software that has a subscription basis to it. I do have a grammar and style checking software called ProWritingAid which sells on a subscription basis but for a few dollars more you can buy a lifetime licence. I've long ago left Outlook and it's various derivatives for GMail. Simple to use and powerful enough to automate a lot of things and you can use it anywhere/anytime.

 :cheers:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I use Libreoffice, quite happy with it.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> I use Libreoffice, quite happy with it.



Apache OpenOfiice for me.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

My apologies if this has been posted previously, but I stumbled across it while looking for something else. Its the report on OP LASER and the JTFC Observations in conditions in Long-term-care facilities in Ontario and can be found  here.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *The novel coronavirus has now infected more than 10 million people*
> 
> ...
> 
> The United States, the hardest hit country, has surpassed 2.5 million cases alone, as efforts to reopen the world's economic powerhouse were set back by a jump in new infections in states such as Florida.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/the-novel-coronavirus-has-now-infected-more-than-10-million-people-1.5003287
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/coronavirus-updates-states-hit-record-high-number-cases/story?id=71497484&cid=clicksource_4380645_4_three_posts_card_hed
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cases/global-coronavirus-cases-exceed-10-million-idUSKBN23Z00F
> 
> https://apnews.com/5a06549049a5471d510ddde7188eeae9


----------



## Kirkhill

> New estimates from Sweden suggest that only 1 in 10,000 people under 50 will die from the virus, compared to 1 in 14 of people over 80 and 1 in 6 of those over 90.





> Older Persons' Health
> Data are for the U.S.
> 
> Life expectancy at 65 years
> Both sexes: 19.4 years
> Men: 18.1 years
> Women: 20.6 years
> Source: United States Life Tables, 2017 table A pdf icon



Life expectancy for men = 83
Life expectancy for women = 86



> Mortality
> Number of deaths of persons age 65 and over: 2,067,404
> Deaths per 100,000 population:
> 65-74: 1,790.9
> 75-84: 4,472.6
> 85 and over: 13,573.6
> Source: Deaths: Final Data for 2017, tables 6, 7 pdf icon



In the words of Jim Morrison and the Doors: "No one here gets out alive, now"

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/older-american-health.htm


----------



## mariomike

I wonder what long term effects, if any, there will be on young survivors?


----------



## Kirkhill

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wonder what long term effects, if any, there will be on young survivors?



Physical, mental or cultural?


----------



## brihard

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Physical, mental or cultural?



I suspect he's talking about physical, but the other two are interesting questions in their own right.


----------



## mariomike

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Physical, mental or cultural?



Physical.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wonder what long term effects, if any, there will be on young survivors?



A much redacted quick answer.  More details in this article, but have not yet found peer reviewed journal articles (my preferred references) that encapsulate the same information.

The emerging long-term complications of Covid-19, explained
“It is a true roller coaster of symptoms and severities, with each new day offering many unknowns.”
https://www.vox.com/2020/5/8/21251899/coronavirus-long-term-effects-symptoms


> By Lois Parshley  Updated Jun 12, 2020, 3:31pm EDT
> 
> At first, Lauren Nichols tried to explain away her symptoms. In early March, the healthy 32-year-old felt an intense burning sensation, like acid reflux, when she breathed. Embarrassed, she didn’t initially seek medical care. When her shortness of breath kept getting worse, her doctor tested her for Covid-19.
> 
> Her results came back positive. But for Nichols, that was just the beginning. Over the next eight weeks, she developed wide and varied symptoms, including extreme and chronic fatigue, diarrhea, nausea, tremors, headaches, difficulty concentrating, and short-term memory loss.
> 
> “The guidelines that were provided by the CDC [Centers for Disease Control and Prevention] were not appropriately capturing the symptoms that I was experiencing, which in turn meant that the medical community was unable to ‘validate’ my symptoms,” she says. “This became a vicious cycle of doubt, confusion, and loneliness.”
> 
> An estimated 40 to 45 percent of people with Covid-19 may be asymptomatic, and others will have a mild illness with no lasting symptoms. But Nichols is one of many Covid-19 patients who are finding their recovery takes far longer than the two weeks the World Health Organization says people with mild cases can expect. (The WHO says those with severe or critical cases can expect three to six weeks of recovery.)
> 
> Because Covid-19 is a new disease, there are no studies about its long-term trajectory for those with more severe symptoms; even the earliest patients to recover in China were only infected a few months ago. But doctors say the novel coronavirus can attach to human cells in many parts of the body and penetrate many major organs, including the heart, kidneys, brain, and even blood vessels.
> 
> “The difficulty is sorting out long-term consequences,” says Joseph Brennan, a cardiologist at the Yale School of Medicine. While some patients may fully recover, he and other experts worry others will suffer long-term damage, including lung scarring, heart damage, and neurological and mental health effects.
> 
> The UK National Health Service assumes that of Covid-19 patients who have required hospitalization, 45 percent will need ongoing medical care, 4 percent will require inpatient rehabilitation, and 1 percent will permanently require acute care. Other preliminary evidence, as well as historical research on other coronaviruses like severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), suggests that for some people, a full recovery might still be years off. For others, there may be no returning to normal.
> 
> There’s a lot we still don’t know, but here are a few of the most notable potential long-term impacts that are already showing up in some Covid-19 patients.
> 
> *Lung scarring* . . .
> 
> *Stroke, embolisms, and blood clotting* . . .
> 
> *Heart damage* . . .
> 
> *Neurocognitive and mental health impacts* . . .
> 
> *Childhood inflammation, male infertility, and other possible lasting effects*
> The novel coronavirus continues to frustrate scientists and patients alike with its mysteries. One of these is a small but growing number of children who recently began showing up at doctors’ offices in Britain, Italy, and Spain with strange symptoms, including a rash, a high fever, and heart inflammation.
> 
> On May 4, the New York City Health Department noted that at least 15 children with these symptoms had been hospitalized there, too. These cases present like a severe immune response called Kawasaki disease, where blood vessels can begin to leak, and fluid builds up in the lungs and other major organs. Although only some of these children have tested positive for Covid-19, Russell Viner, president of the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health, told the New York Times, “the working hypothesis is that it’s Covid-related.” . . .
> 
> *What all of this means for survivors and researchers*
> As all this preliminary research shows, we are still in the early days of understanding what this virus might mean for the growing number of Covid-19 survivors — what symptoms they might expect to have, how long it might take them to get back to feeling normal (if they ever will), and what other precautions they might need to be taking.    . . . .


----------



## stellarpanther

I never thought I would see this but during a Press Conference today, VP Pence and others and are now strongly urging American's to wear masks.  Broward County, FL is closing it's beaches.  Even the Gov of Florida was wearing his mask and is facing pressure to issue a statewide mandate.

I know some will disagree with me on this but I think we should be doing that in this country as well.  From what I hear from some CAF mbr's not all bases are enforcing the mask rule or social distancing rules as good as others.  A buddy in North Bay told me that they are doing next to nothing their with the exception of reduced hours and more working from home.  When they are in the office they have no plexiglass, people walk up to the counter as usual, no hand sanitizer etc.  They have masks but don't wear them because not everyone does and they don't want to look stupid in front of their co-workers.  Leadership clearly needs to step up.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I never thought I would see this but during a Press Conference today, VP Pence and others and are now strongly urging American's to wear masks.  Broward County, FL is closing it's beaches.  Even the Gov of Florida was wearing his mask and is facing pressure to issue a statewide mandate.
> 
> I know some will disagree with me on this but I think we should be doing that in this country as well.  From what I hear from some CAF mbr's not all bases are enforcing the mask rule or social distancing rules as good as others.  A buddy in North Bay told me that they are doing next to nothing their with the exception of reduced hours and more working from home.  When they are in the office they have no plexiglass, people walk up to the counter as usual, no hand sanitizer etc.  They have masks but don't wear them because not everyone does and they don't want to look stupid in front of their co-workers.  Leadership clearly needs to step up.



If they worked in Wellington County they'd be parading in front of the Public Health boss.    And as one of the lucky ones at my old workplace I can say DON"T BE FRIGGIN' STUPID!!….I watched how fast, and hard, big strong men and women were brought to their knees.  Take it serious in the workplace.


----------



## stellarpanther

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If they worked in Wellington County they'd be parading in front of the Public Health boss.    And as one of the lucky ones at my old workplace I can say DON"T BE FRIGGIN' STUPID!!….I watched how fast, and hard, big strong men and women were brought to their knees.  Take it serious in the workplace.



That's what should happen.  I'm surprised how many people still don't take this serious and treat it like it's a joke.  I don't even find wearing a mask that big a deal.


----------



## PuckChaser

Considering there's no active cases for that entire health unit https://www.myhealthunit.ca/en/health-topics/covid-19-cases.asp, I can see why people wouldn't take it seriously. No excuse for not doing simple things like hand sanitizer and some cheap plexiglass at service counters though.


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Considering there's no active cases for that entire health unit https://www.myhealthunit.ca/en/health-topics/covid-19-cases.asp, I can see why people wouldn't take it seriously. No excuse for not doing simple things like hand sanitizer and some cheap plexiglass at service counters though.



I see it in Ottawa though also.  I recall seeing a Frag O or letter or something from the CDS a couple months ago directing that masks are to be worn at work when proper distancing can't be maintained and also that all CAF mbr's to wear them when in public for thing such as getting groceries.  I'm surprised how many are not following that.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Ontario reports significant spike in new COVID-19 cases*
> 
> Ontario health officials reported a significant rise in the number of COVID-19 cases in the province, with a majority in the Windsor-Essex region.
> 
> An additional 257 new infections were confirmed on Monday, up from 178 reported on Sunday, 160 reported on Saturday and 111 on Friday.
> 
> Ontario Health Minister Christine Elliott announced on Monday that 177 of the new cases were from the Windsor-Essex region and 80 new cases were from the rest of the province, including 40 in Peel Region.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-reports-significant-spike-in-new-covid-19-cases-1.5004101





> *Coronavirus on ‘steady decline’ in Canada, latest modelling data shows*
> 
> Canada is seeing a “steady decline” in new coronavirus cases despite recent outbreaks across the country, according to new modelling from the federal government.
> 
> Chief public health officer Dr. Theresa Tam offered an updated picture of the current COVID-19 pandemic facing Canada, which included new modelling and estimates on the number of cases and deaths.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7120573/coronavirus-steady-decline-canada-data-modelling/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm sure we will see more of a spike as things open up......just as long as that spike stays somewhat contained, unlike our friends to the south.


----------



## stellarpanther

IMO, it's going to continue spiking because people are not doing the little things like wearing a mask, washing their hands when they come out of the stores etc or have the attitude that it's not that bad here or no cases here so I don't need to wear a mask.  Are people forgetting that a lot of people are Asymptomatic but can still spread it.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm sure we will see more of a spike as things open up......just as long as that spike stays somewhat contained, unlike our friends to the south.


Most of Ontario is stage 2, and positive tests dropped despite getting 27-31K tests done every day. We're also weeks after people crammed beaches and protested in the streets. If Ontario doesn't move to stage 3 exempting Peel, Toronto, and Windsor/Leamington this week, ill start changing my mind on Ford's handling of the outbreak so far.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Systemic racism, barriers explain higher rates of COVID-19 among immigrant, non-white communities in Ottawa: Experts

Exposure to COVID-19 is a non-negotiable fact of life for many immigrant and visible minority residents in Ottawa. Take a look at the pandemic-era essential workforce: those supporting the food supply chain, providing taxi or ride-share services, or caring for residents in long-term care homes.

Even before the pandemic, many of his colleagues were non-white, often newcomers. Job opportunities are restricted when you have an accent or degree from a non-Western university, Tijani explained.

“We did not come here to sit home, or rely on the government.

“You want to work and feed your family … that’s the easiest job to get now. That’s why we are finding more immigrants working (in long-term care).”

According to experts, it’s also part of the reason why COVID-19 appears to pose a disproportionate threat to immigrants and visible minorities, as preliminary data from Ottawa Public Health recently confirmed.

With the virus ripping through congregate care homes, agri-food workplaces and other sites of precarious and low-paying work disproportionately held by newcomers and people of colour, it was inevitable that infection rates would be higher among these groups.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/systemic-racism-barriers-explain-higher-rates-of-covid-19-among-immigrant-non-white-communities-in-ottawa-experts/wcm/8c8b3e4a-7b79-48ec-97dd-ca8c9eab1433/


----------



## daftandbarmy

John Ivison: The COVID mission is far from accomplished, despite Trudeau's latest feel-good message 

The most positive spin possible was put on Canada’s performance, with one graph showing how Canada had “flattened the curve sooner than a number of countries such as the U.K., Italy and the U.S.”

But when compared to countries that have coped well with COVID, the performance looks less impressive. Canada’s death rate per 100,000 people is double that of peer countries such as Germany, Denmark and Norway. Even when held up against the U.S., Canada is not unimpeachable — 8.3 per cent of all cases resulted in death in Canada, compared to a 4.9-per-cent case-fatality rate in the States. This reflects the appalling carnage in Canadian long-term care homes, where 20,602 cases resulted in 6,920 deaths, fully 81 per cent of all fatalities in this country.

“Canada has flattened the curve but at a high level,” said Amir Attaran, a professor in the Faculty of Law and School of Epidemiology and Public Health at the University of Ottawa. He said he would prefer to see the curve look more like a black diamond ski run. “’Flattening’ means a simmering, never-disappearing problem… It’s not something to be happy about, or something for which the Liberals should be claiming credit,” said Attaran.

Tam said “the epidemiology indicates transmission is largely under control.” But we are continuing to see outbreaks in unlikely hot spots including Saskatchewan and the Windsor-Essex region in Ontario, where many migrant workers are based. There is also evidence of infections spiking from funerals and family gatherings.

The model revealed the hospitalization rate of 15 per cent is roughly what was predicted going into the crisis and the numbers requiring intensive care beds and mechanical ventilation has been far lower than many feared (just 431 people needed ventilators).

But nobody should be under any illusion that the mission has been accomplished. In the Public Health Agency’s early models, it suggested the death toll could be 22,000 people, if the infection rate was five per cent over the course of the pandemic. Canada’s infection rate is currently around four per cent (103,250 cases from 2.6-million tested). That suggests that we will have a period of respite before second and third waves claim more lives.

Tam said the virus has not been eliminated and, with no effective vaccine, we can expect to see a resurgence as restrictions are lifted. “If we relax too much or too soon, we can expect it to rebound with explosive growth,” she said.

https://theprovince.com/news/politics/john-ivison-the-covid-mission-is-far-from-accomplished-despite-trudeaus-latest-feel-good-message/wcm/ac57ebd6-b318-43ab-8227-732c78de049a


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Flat" is the place to be.  A vaccine is not guaranteed, and will still take months to develop and test.  Complete containment is not viable - the international community is only as safe as its weakest members, and restrictive measures are unlikely to be accepted for a years-long effort.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Canadians will be allowed to visit EU countries soon while Americans have to wait*
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/canadians-will-be-allowed-to-visit-eu-countries-soon-while-americans-have-to-wait-1.5005373
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-travel/eu-excludes-united-states-from-safe-travel-list-idUSKBN2410WJ
> 
> https://apnews.com/ea0d2cff51aa296f47d35a204831a474
> 
> https://apnews.com/b42fb52eaa5ba19956cca0c7aabd9a52


----------



## daftandbarmy

I can see the tag line now.....

"Europe: even better without loud and obnoxious US tourists"


----------



## Kat Stevens

Exciting times for travel, I get to go to Brandon for three weeks!


----------



## GR66

Target Up said:
			
		

> Exciting times for travel, I get to go to Brandon for three weeks!



Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll reimpose the lockdown before it happens.


----------



## stellarpanther

The Toronto city council will take up mandating the use of mask today indoors however, it won't necessarily be enforced.  I agree with mandating masks but unfortunately some people still won't wear them and I personally think it should be enforced.  Why will this country not do what is really needed.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mandatory-masks-toronto-brampton-mississauga-1.5632435

Air Canada is ending flights to 8 cities and suspending 30 routes.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-canada-ending-service-to-8-cities-suspending-30-regional-routes-1.5005756


----------



## daftandbarmy

Proof that you can't E&E from a virus....

90 out of 110 soldiers in a survival, evasion, resistance, and escape course just tested positive for COVID-19

A total of 82 soldiers taking part in survival, evasion, resistance, and escape training along with eight instructors at Camp Mackall, North Carolina, have tested positive for the novel coronavirus (COVID-19), said Janice Burton, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School.

The students are all participating in the Army's Special Forces Qualification Course (Q Course), which lasts roughly 53 weeks, Burton said on Tuesday. 

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/90-soldiers-sere-course-coronavirus-positive?fbclid=IwAR263833WZlIZPOXa_x4Bj87c0T0Jm0oKnK150vetfDnAoPpOjneBVw4Jwc


----------



## stellarpanther

The Reserves are starting up training this summer, I'm not sure that's such a great idea.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The Reserves are starting up training this summer, I'm not sure that's such a great idea.



I know... after all, what would you do with a trained reservist  

Meanwhile, in the British Army: 

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/05/first-soldiers-pass-out-of-training-since-coronavirus-lockdown/


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I know... after all, what would you do with a trained reservist
> 
> Meanwhile, in the British Army:
> 
> https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/05/first-soldiers-pass-out-of-training-since-coronavirus-lockdown/



It's got nothing about what a trained Reservist can do as you put it but strictly about the virus.  There is a reason most Reg Force mbr's are still working from home or having severely reduced hours.  The training is certainly necessary but maybe this summer should be a write off for training.  I did find the sarcasm humorous though.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's got nothing about what a trained Reservist can do as you put it but strictly about the virus.  There is a reason most Reg Force mbr's are still working from home or having severely reduced hours.  The training is certainly necessary but maybe this summer should be a write off for training.  I did find the sarcasm humorous though.



No, it's about how a military adapts its training syllabus to meet changing circumstances.  And not a mask in sight on grad parade.  I'm not a knee jerk cheerleader for the shiteaters, but in this incidence they seem to have taken the initiative, got on with the job and accomplished the task.  It's not quite "The Way Ahead" or "The New Lot", but in these times we live in, it is a good story of how to do it.


----------



## MilEME09

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's got nothing about what a trained Reservist can do as you put it but strictly about the virus.  There is a reason most Reg Force mbr's are still working from home or having severely reduced hours.  The training is certainly necessary but maybe this summer should be a write off for training.  I did find the sarcasm humorous though.



I can speak to what I am seeing in my AO, courses will be CB for 2 weeks and live and work in their own cells (courses). Minimal interaction with the rest of the base and population. Cross province movement for courses is a no go. So it is a calculated risk per brigade, Alberta has much fewer active cases then Ontario for example.


----------



## stellarpanther

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> No, it's about how a military adapts its training syllabus to meet changing circumstances.  And not a mask in sight on grad parade.  I'm not a knee jerk cheerleader for the shiteaters, but in this incidence they seem to have taken the initiative, got on with the job and accomplished the task.  It's not quite "The Way Ahead" or "The New Lot", but in these times we live in, it is a good story of how to do it.



What grad parades have we had recently.  If they've had any and are not wearing masks, that is just stupid.


----------



## stellarpanther

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I can speak to what I am seeing in my AO, courses will be CB for 2 weeks and live and work in their own cells (courses). Minimal interaction with the rest of the base and population. Cross province movement for courses is a no go. So it is a calculated risk per brigade, Alberta has much fewer active cases then Ontario for example.



Some CoC are telling there people to expect this dispersed posture to continue the way it is until at least Sept


----------



## Kilted

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's got nothing about what a trained Reservist can do as you put it but strictly about the virus.  There is a reason most Reg Force mbr's are still working from home or having severely reduced hours.  The training is certainly necessary but maybe this summer should be a write off for training.  I did find the sarcasm humorous though.




The summer could still be a write-off depending on how things go.  I don't know how many courses are being run across the country, but It wouldn't surprise me if a least a few of them take longer to run then normal due to stopping for outbreaks, if there aren't a few that are cancelled out right. They are using some of the thousands of us they have on Class C contracts right now. The real question for me is, if there is a second wave in the fall, will they extend our contracts or start all new ones if it comes later then September, or are they just going to hope they don't need us.


----------



## stellarpanther

Kilted said:
			
		

> The summer could still be a write-off depending on how things go.  I don't know how many courses are being run across the country, but It wouldn't surprise me if a least a few of them take longer to run then normal due to stopping for outbreaks, if there aren't a few that are cancelled out right. They are using some of the thousands of us they have on Class C contracts right now. The real question for me is, if there is a second wave in the fall, will they extend our contracts or start all new ones if it comes later then September, or are they just going to hope they don't need us.



It's above my pay grade but I would assume they need to start new contracts.  Occasionally you will see a Reg Force mbr slip through the cracks and find out that their TOS (Terms of Service) is expiring in a week.  That quickly becomes the priority until it is offered.  When I first joined it was discovered that someone was working with an expired TOS, not sure what happened but the Base Comd was involved.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Military confirms 40 per cent of COVID-positive troops deployed to long-term care homes were asymptomatic

Proactive screening by the long-term care homes caught the asymptomatic cases

Up to 40 per cent of Canadian troops infected with the novel coronavirus may have been carrying the virus symptom-free while they were deployed to long-term care homes — and may even have contracted it in the hotels where they were billeted — senior members of the military acknowledged today.

The remarks by Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Jonathan Vance and the military's deputy surgeon general once again focused attention on the patchy testing regime employed by the Department of National Defence (DND) when over 1,600 troops were tasked with backstopping failing long-term care facilities in Quebec and Ontario.

As CBC News reported earlier this month, the military itself had been testing only those troops deployed to long-term care homes who displayed symptoms of the virus. Asymptomatic military members were not proactively tested — except in cases where the long-term care homes themselves provided the screening.

Maj.-Gen. Marc Bilodeau, the deputy surgeon general, told a Senate committee today that 40 per cent of the infections involved asymptomatic soldiers who were detected by preemptive evaluations by the nursing homes that were trying to identify and prevent "an uncontrollable outbreak."

At a separate public event on Friday, Vance said most of the 55 soldiers who contracted the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19 did pick it up in long-term care homes, which have been hotspots of infection throughout the pandemic.

"We believe some of those troops that were determined to be affected had been asymptomatic before the operation started. So a testing regime is going to be really critical going forward, " Vance told a media briefing today on the pending withdrawal of military assistance from long-term care centres. The Canadian Red Cross will stand up hundreds of volunteers to take the place of soldiers over the next month.

Only four infected members of the military remain ill. The rest have recovered and none were hospitalized.

"The possibility they have been infected where they were staying has also been considered," Vance said.

"There was also contact with the virus in the facilities we were living in. We were sharing hotel space with other emergency workers and so on. The virus, you know, is insidious and easily contracted."
Gaps in DND's testing protocol

In response to questions from CBC News in early June, DND acknowledged it had no uniform testing program for troops  — an omission that alarmed a leading health and safety policy expert who advised Ontario's SARS commission more than a decade ago.

"To date, primarily symptomatic [Canadian Armed Forces] personnel are being tested for COVID-19, including [Operation] LASER deployed personnel," said Dan Le Bouthillier, DND head of media relations, in an email on June 3.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-pandemic-military-long-term-care-quebec-1.5629067?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


----------



## stellarpanther

This article should make everyone stop and think. Every one of those Reservists should be tested prior to the start of course and random testing should be carried out during course.  As well, while many people are still working from home and that could be the plan for a while yet going forward. They should do the same for Reg Force returning to work.  I've heard from several friends who are going into the office even part time, that many people are not wearing masks and but they feel awkward to say anything because their CoC isn't taking it seriously and they're afraid of being ridiculed.


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> This article should make everyone stop and think. Every one of those Reservists should be tested prior to the start of course and random testing should be carried out during course.  As well, while many people are still working from home and that could be the plan for a while yet going forward. They should do the same for Reg Force returning to work.  I've heard from several friends who are going into the office even part time, that many people are not wearing masks and but they feel awkward to say anything because their CoC isn't taking it seriously and they're afraid of being ridiculed.



They’re not just reservists. AFAIK about half of those deployed to the nursing homes are Reg F.

AAR point: ‘DAG Green’ means something different during a pandemic.


----------



## stellarpanther

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> They’re not just reservists. AFAIK about half of those deployed to the nursing homes are Reg F.
> 
> AAR point: ‘DAG Green’ means something different during a pandemic.



Sorry, I wasn't clear.  The people sent to the homes were supposed to be getting the best protection, subjected to strict isolation etc when outside of the homes and several still contracted the virus or brought it with them so if that's the case, the CAF failed and should have properly screened them first.  How many elderly did we infect?  My thinking now that Reservists will be going on course will not be enforcing things the way it should be.  I see it spreading there because rules won't be strictly enforced.  One thought is, will someone who is diabetic be allowed to go on course even though they are at high risk of catching it.  I'm just not sure they can be kept safe at this point.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. sees 50,000 new cases of COVID-19 reported in a single day, setting record*
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-sees-50-000-new-cases-of-covid-19-reported-in-a-single-day-setting-record-1.5007676
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-coronavirus-cases-record-50000-in-one-day/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. coronavirus cases hit new global record, rising over 55,000 in single day*
> 
> The United States reported more than 55,000 new COVID-19 cases on Thursday, the largest daily increase any country has ever reported, according to a Reuters tally.
> 
> The daily U.S. tally stood at 55,274 late Thursday, topping the previous single day record of 54,771 set by Brazil on June 19.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-cases/u-s-coronavirus-cases-hit-new-global-record-rising-over-55000-in-single-day-idUSKBN2433I1





> *Confirmed coronavirus cases are rising in 40 of 50 states*
> 
> Four U.S. states — Arizona, California, Florida and Texas — reported a combined 25,000 new confirmed coronavirus cases Thursday as the infection curve rose in 40 of the 50 states heading into the July Fourth holiday weekend.
> 
> With the number of daily confirmed coronavirus cases nationwide climbing past 50,000, an alarming 36 states saw an increase in the percentage of tests coming back positive for the virus.
> 
> “What we’ve seen is a very disturbing week,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, the government’s top infectious-disease expert, said in a livestream with the American Medical Association.
> 
> In a major retreat that illustrated how dire things have become in Texas, Republican Gov. Greg Abbott ordered the wearing of masks across most of the state after refusing until recently to let even local governments impose such rules.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/0468a60b64947879926d2a16e45c00ee





> *Phone data show consumers avoiding stores, restaurants as COVID surges*
> 
> Cell phone data that track users' whereabouts show that fewer Americans are patronizing local businesses and chain stores as COVID-19 cases surge in states like Arizona, California and Florida — a worrying sign that may dash hopes for a swift economic rebound after consumer spending dropped sharply at the onset of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cell-phone-data-show-consumers-avoiding-stores-as-covid-19-cases-surge/


----------



## dapaterson

'Treated like criminals': Italy turns away American tourists on private jet

https://www.thelocal.it/20200703/treated-like-criminals-italian-police-turn-away-american-tourists-arriving-by-private-jet

Border police in Sardinia denied entry to five US citizens who attempted to enter the island aboard a private jet, in line with Italy's ban on almost all tourism from outside Europe.

The group of around ten adults and children, which also included one Italian national, two Brits, two Germans and a New Zealander, were stopped upon landing at Elmas airport in Cagliari on Wednesday morning. 

They had flown by private plane from Colorado, despite Italy's ongoing ban on most non-essential travel from outside the EU, Schengen Zone and UK.


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 'Treated like criminals': Italy turns away American tourists on private jet
> 
> https://www.thelocal.it/20200703/treated-like-criminals-italian-police-turn-away-american-tourists-arriving-by-private-jet
> 
> Border police in Sardinia denied entry to five US citizens who attempted to enter the island aboard a private jet, in line with Italy's ban on almost all tourism from outside Europe.
> 
> The group of around ten adults and children, which also included one Italian national, two Brits, two Germans and a New Zealander, were stopped upon landing at Elmas airport in Cagliari on Wednesday morning.
> 
> They had flown by private plane from Colorado, despite Italy's ongoing ban on most non-essential travel from outside the EU, Schengen Zone and UK.




That was an expensive gamble on "I'm sure we'll be allowed in..."


----------



## Weinie

CBH99 said:
			
		

> That was an _*expensive*_ gamble on "I'm sure we'll be allowed in..."



Expensive is likely a relative things amongst some folk.


----------



## CBH99

True.

A private plane from Colorado, all the way to Italy...only to be turned around??


That's a financial world I'll never experience


----------



## PuckChaser

CBH99 said:
			
		

> That was an expensive gamble on "I'm sure we'll be allowed in..."



When you have that kind of money, I think anyone asked the question at whether they'd be allowed in. When you're rich enough, a lot of the times the rules don't apply.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Two Americans charged with breaking Canada's quarantine rules*
> 
> Two Americans have been fined for breaking Canada's COVID-19 quarantine rules after being spotted multiple times in an Ontario town, police say.
> 
> Ontario Provincial Police officers in the Rainy River District, which runs along the Canada-U.S. border west of Thunder Bay, Ont., say the 66-year-old man and 65-year-old woman entered Canada on June 24.
> 
> Police report that the visitors were told to drive straight to their Canadian destination and stay there for 14 days.
> 
> "Both individuals failed to comply with the … Quarantine Act and were observed making stops in the Town of Fort Frances," police said Saturday in a news release.
> 
> As a result of the charge, the man and woman, who police say live in Excelsior, Minn., have each been fined $1,000.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/two-americans-charged-with-breaking-canada-s-quarantine-rules-1.5011388


----------



## CBH99

I'm confused...isn't the border supposed to be closed in the first place?


----------



## daftandbarmy

I can't believe Scousers would do something like this 

County lines gangs disguised drug couriers as key workers during coronavirus lockdown

Liverpool drug lords operated a ‘click and collect’ service for cocaine and heroin, Mersyside police say 

Criminal gangs have been dressing young drug mules as nurses and Deliveroo workers to deliver cocaine, heroin and illegally acquired prescription drugs during lockdown, according to a senior officer in charge of tackling county lines dealing at one of the UK’s biggest police forces.

Supt Andy O’Connor of Merseyside police said Liverpool drug lords forced to return home during lockdown were operating a “click and collect” service for couriers disguised as key workers to travel in and out of the region with drugs.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/05/county-lines-gangs-drug-couriers-key-workers-coronavirus-lockdown-cocaine-heroin


----------



## dapaterson

I can't believe they waited until now to do it...


----------



## PMedMoe

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'm confused...isn't the border supposed to be closed in the first place?



Not completely closed.  https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/coronavirus-covid19/travel-restrictions-exemptions.html


----------



## lenaitch

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'm confused...isn't the border supposed to be closed in the first place?



I'm a little confused as well.  There is an exemption for visiting family members who are Canadian residents but they must go directly and stay there.  I have seen news items about US-plated vehicles observed in Muskoka (maybe they all have family up here?).  I thought being a (seasonal) property owner might be an exemption but it is not.  There have also been reports out west of US visitors seen in Banff, Vancouver Island, etc.  They can enter to go directly to/from Alaska but it seems some are making side trips.


----------



## CBH99

I feel like a closed border should be a closed border.  Period.  Doesn't sound too complicated.

Obviously freight would be an exception, and exceptions could be made for government agencies.  (Military exercises being an example...but even then, everything has been pretty curtailed on both sides of the border.)


There was an article posted just the other day (I THINK by Global) -- I'll hunt it down once I'm home and post it.  That even with a 96% reduction in cross border traffic, *more than 200,000 Americans crossed the border last month*, legally, for one reason or another.  CBSA justified it as it was still a 96% reduction.  (I think the number was in the 216,000 range)


Given the situation, especially south of the border, that seems like AN ABSURDLY HIGH RISK.   :2c:


----------



## dapaterson

I suspect there were over 216K crossings; however, given many would be the same people crossing multiple times (5 freight loads, fr example) the number of people is likely significantly less.

That said, I am sure there are abuses as well.


----------



## lenaitch

Border crossing is still permitted for employment which would be part of the numbers.  This paper https://www.workforcewindsoressex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Cross-Border-Employment-Report.pdf says about 6150 people in the Windsor-Essex area work outside of the country, and they would likely be daily or close-to-daily crossings.  I couldn't find comparable numbers for Detroit-area residents working in Canada.


----------



## Remius

Check your phones.  Android and Apple have pushed a COVID notification program.  You still have to download a compatible app and opt in but some people think the app has been pushed but it hasn’t.  You still have to opt in.

On android go to your google settings.  You’ll see it there.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *P.E.I. top doc says traveller from U.S. linked to coronavirus cluster was turned away from province*
> 
> ...
> 
> Four of the province’s five new cases are connected to a man in his 20s who travelled to Nova Scotia and had contact with an American traveller while there.
> 
> That traveller intended to travel to P.E.I. but had not applied for the necessary approval to do so.
> 
> “One of these cases, a young man travelled to Nova Scotia and spent time with another man in his 20s who recently travelled from the United States,” said Dr. Heather Morrison, chief medical officer of health.
> 
> The traveller made it as far as the Confederation Bridge before being turned away.
> 
> The American traveller entered Nova Scotia on June 26 and has since tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> According to Dr. Morrison, both he and the young man who came in contact with him have mild to no symptoms.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7142644/pei-covid-19-update-july-6/





> *Nova Scotia introduces new measures for travellers from outside the Atlantic bubble*
> 
> Nova Scotia reported one new case of the coronavirus on Monday, stating that currently there are four active cases in the province.
> 
> According to the government, the new case is related to travel outside Canada. The individual does not reside in Nova Scotia but was passing through from the United States to Prince Edward Island.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7142997/new-coronavirus-covid-19-case-update-nova-scotia-july-6/
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-covid-19-update-july-6-1.5639009
> 
> https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-s-premier-frustrated-by-travellers-who-fail-to-self-isolate-province-to-ramp-up-surveillance-1.5012482





> *Masks mandatory in Ottawa under public health order starting Tuesday*
> 
> Masks mandatory in Ottawa under public health order starting Tuesday
> 
> As of 12:01 a.m. Tuesday, face masks will be mandatory in indoor public spaces across the capital.
> 
> Medical Officer of Health Dr. Vera Etches issued the directive Monday.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/masks-mandatory-in-ottawa-under-public-health-order-starting-tuesday-1.5011848
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/eastern-ontario-mandatory-masks-1.5639082
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7144373/ottawa-masks-mandatory-indoors-coronavirus/





> *Masks to be mandatory in Montreal's indoor public spaces by July 27: Mayor Plante*
> 
> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/masks-to-be-mandatory-in-montreal-s-indoor-public-spaces-by-july-27-mayor-plante-1.5012934
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/masks-mandatory-montreal-1.5639539
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7144608/coronavirus-montreal-masks-mandatory/


----------



## daftandbarmy

UK charities face soaring demand for grief counselling due to Covid-19

Bereaved families say they have been abandoned by the government

Bereavement charities in the UK predict demand for their services could double in 2020 because of the pandemic, as struggling families of Covid-19 victims call on the government for more funding for grief counselling.

Cruse Bereavement Care, the largest bereavement charity in the UK, which helped 50,000 people in 2019, is anticipating an extra 20,000 to 50,000 clients this year, and is hoping to train more than 1,000 new volunteers to meet the demand.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/06/uk-charities-face-soaring-demand-for-grief-counselling-due-to-covid-19


----------



## QV

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7323223/



> Do facemasks protect against COVID‐19?
> 
> ...The public might wear masks to avoid infection or to protect others. During the 2009 pandemic of H1N1 influenza (swine flu), encouraging the public to wash their hands reduced the incidence of infection significantly whereas wearing facemasks did not. 5  There is no good evidence that facemasks protect the public against infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID‐19. 6
> 
> However, absence of proof of an effect is not the same as proof of absence of an effect. During the pandemics caused by swine flu and by the coronaviruses which caused SARS and MERS, many people in Asia and elsewhere walked around wearing surgical or homemade cotton masks to protect themselves. One danger of doing this is the illusion of protection. Surgical facemasks are designed to be discarded after single use. As they become moist they become porous and no longer protect. Indeed, experiments have shown that surgical and cotton masks do not trap the SARS‐CoV‐2 (COVID‐19) virus, which can be detected on the outer surface of the masks for up to 7 days. 7 ,  8  Thus, a pre‐symptomatic or mildly infected person wearing a facemask for hours without changing it and without washing hands every time they touched the mask could paradoxically increase the risk of infecting others. Because the USA is in a desperate situation, their Centers for Disease Control has recommended the public wear homemade cloth masks. This was essentially done in an effort to try and reduce community transmission, especially from people who may not perceive themselves to be symptomatic, rather than to protect the wearer, although the evidence for this is scant. In contrast, the World Health Organization currently recommends against the public routinely wearing facemasks.


----------



## mariomike

> Philadelphia Department of Public Health:
> 
> If there is still any confusion about the importance of face masks, this graphic should help:
> 
> https://twitter.com/PHLPublicHealth/status/1255941752164401153/photo/1





			
				MCG said:
			
		

> - if you can’t do something of no imposition that medical experts are currently suggesting will save lives and facilitate opening the economy, well that reflects on you as a human.


----------



## QV

Are you at all curious why there is such a mix of professional opinions on this?  And how do you choose which one you believe?


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:
			
		

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7323223/



"Thus, a pre‐symptomatic or mildly infected person wearing a facemask for hours without changing it and without washing hands every time they touched the mask could paradoxically increase the risk of infecting others."

So, don't wear the mask for hours at a time and wash or sanitize your hands every time you touch it.  Ideally, you should be removing the mask by the ear loops and not touching the portion over the mouth/nose at all.  This seems more like instruction for proper use/hygiene than saying masks don't work.


----------



## Remius

QV said:
			
		

> Are you at all curious why there is such a mix of professional opinions on this?  And how do you choose which one you believe?



Well for one thing, everything coming from south of us has been so heavily politicized I wouldn’t trust what they are doing or not doing.  Or saying or claiming to say.  The experts down there have been sidelined. 

But now even those that were against masks are now saying to wear it.

Follow our own country’s lead because whatever they are doing down south, isn’t working.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oops....


Several pubs in England close after positive coronavirus tests

At least three pubs in England that reopened their doors for the first time on Saturday have been forced to close again after customers or staff tested positive for Covid-19.

The Lighthouse Kitchen and Carvery in Burnham-on-Sea, Somerset, said a customer had tested positive and it was making its way through a list of people who were in the premises on Saturday.

In a statement posted on Facebook, it said: “This isn’t the message we wanted to write so soon but the Lighthouse will be closed due to a customer testing positive. We are slowly getting through our list of customers that were in the pub on Saturday. All our staff are going to be tested and we will reopen when the time is safe to do so.”

Also in Burnham, the Indian takeaway Saagar said it would be closing until Friday to undergo a deep clean after one of its drivers had been to the Lighthouse Kitchen, along with the Vape Escape bar, which has also closed for a full clean after a customer’s positive test.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/07/several-pubs-in-england-close-after-positive-coronavirus-tests


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> "Thus, a pre‐symptomatic or mildly infected person wearing a facemask for hours without changing it and without washing hands every time they touched the mask could paradoxically increase the risk of infecting others."
> 
> So, don't wear the mask for hours at a time and wash or sanitize your hands every time you touch it.  Ideally, you should be removing the mask by the ear loops and not touching the portion over the mouth/nose at all.  This seems more like instruction for proper use/hygiene than saying masks don't work.



What do you think about the sentence immediately preceding the one you commented on?  





> Indeed, experiments have shown that surgical and cotton masks do not trap the SARS‐CoV‐2 (COVID‐19) virus, which can be detected on the outer surface of the masks for up to 7 days


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:
			
		

> What do you think about the sentence immediately preceding the one you commented on?



Click the footnote link (7) next to it.

7. Bae S, Kim M, Kim JY et al Effectiveness of surgical and cotton masks in blocking SARS–CoV‐2: A controlled comparison in 4 patients. Ann. Intern. Med. 2020. 10.7326/M20-1342. [PMC free article] [PubMed] [CrossRef] [Google Scholar] *Retracted*

(Emphasis mine).


----------



## ModlrMike

> A controlled comparison in 4 patients.



That's a statistically significant study population right there.  :facepalm:


----------



## Blackadder1916

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> That's a statistically significant study population right there.  :facepalm:



Yes, however the retraction of the article was not based on the size of the study but on:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7273461/


> According to recommendations by the editors of Annals of Internal Medicine, we are retracting our article, “Effectiveness of Surgical and Cotton Masks in Blocking SARS-CoV-2. A Controlled Comparison in 4 Patients,” which was published on Annals.org on 6 April 2020 (1).
> 
> We had not fully recognized the concept of limit of detection (LOD) of the in-house reverse transcriptase polymerase chain reaction used in the study (2.63 log copies/mL), and we regret our failure to express the values below LOD as “<LOD (value).” The LOD is a statistical measure of the lowest quantity of the analyte that can be distinguished from the absence of that analyte. Therefore, values below the LOD are unreliable and our findings are uninterpretable. Reader comments raised this issue after publication. We proposed correcting the reported data with new experimental data from additional patients, but the editors requested retraction.



In other words . . . we didn't know what we were talking about to begin with, but is it okay if we throw some more statistics at it.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

‘A couple of updated figures and additional points included in this article.

Sweden has become the world's cautionary tale



> LONDON — Ever since the coronavirus emerged in Europe, Sweden has captured international attention by conducting an unorthodox, open-air experiment. It has allowed the world to examine what happens in a pandemic when a government allows life to carry on largely unhindered.
> 
> This is what has happened: Not only have thousands more people died than in neighboring countries that imposed lockdowns, but Sweden’s economy has fared little better.
> 
> “They literally gained nothing,” said Jacob F. Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington. “It’s a self-inflicted wound, and they have no economic gains.”
> 
> The results of Sweden’s experience are relevant well beyond Scandinavian shores. In the United States, where the virus is spreading with alarming speed, many states have — at President Donald Trump’s urging — avoided lockdowns or lifted them prematurely on the assumption that this would foster economic revival, allowing people to return to workplaces, shops and restaurants.
> 
> In Britain, Prime Minister Boris Johnson — previously hospitalized with COVID-19 — reopened pubs and restaurants last weekend in a bid to restore normal economic life.
> 
> Implicit in these approaches is the assumption that governments must balance saving lives against the imperative to spare jobs, with the extra health risks of rolling back social distancing potentially justified by a resulting boost to prosperity. But Sweden’s grim result — more death and nearly equal economic damage — suggests that the supposed choice between lives and paychecks is a false one: A failure to impose social distancing can cost lives and jobs at the same time.
> 
> Sweden put stock in the sensibility of its people as it largely avoided imposing government prohibitions. The government allowed restaurants, gyms, shops, playgrounds and most schools to remain open. By contrast, Denmark and Norway opted for strict quarantines, banning large groups and locking down shops and restaurants.
> 
> More than three months later, the coronavirus is blamed for 5,420 deaths in Sweden, according to the World Health Organization. That might not sound especially horrendous compared with the more than 129,000 Americans who have died. But Sweden is a country of only 10 million people. Per million people, Sweden has suffered 40% more deaths than the United States, 12 times more than Norway, seven times more than Finland and six times more than Denmark.
> 
> The elevated death toll resulting from Sweden’s approach has been clear for many weeks. What is only now emerging is how Sweden, despite letting its economy run unimpeded, has still suffered business-destroying, prosperity-diminishing damage and at nearly the same magnitude of its neighbors.
> 
> Sweden’s central bank expects its economy to contract by 4.5% this year, a revision from a previously expected gain of 1.3%. The unemployment rate jumped to 9% in May from 7.1% in March. “The overall damage to the economy means the recovery will be protracted, with unemployment remaining elevated,” Oxford Economics concluded in a recent research note.
> 
> This is more or less how damage caused by the pandemic has played out in Denmark, where the central bank expects that the economy will shrink 4.1% this year and where joblessness has edged up to 5.6% in May from 4.1% in March.
> 
> In short, Sweden suffered a vastly higher death rate while failing to collect on the expected economic gains.
> 
> The coronavirus does not stop at national borders. Despite the government’s decision to allow the domestic economy to roll on, Swedish businesses are stuck with the same conditions that produced recession everywhere else. And Swedish people responded to the fear of the virus by limiting their shopping — not enough to prevent elevated deaths but enough to produce a decline in business activity.
> 
> Here is one takeaway with potentially universal import: It is simplistic to portray government actions such as quarantines as the cause of economic damage. The real culprit is the virus itself. From Asia to Europe to the Americas, the risks of the pandemic have disrupted businesses while prompting people to avoid shopping malls and restaurants, regardless of official policy.
> 
> Sweden is exposed to the vagaries of global trade. Once the pandemic was unleashed, it was certain to suffer the economic consequences, said Kirkegaard, the economist.
> 
> “The Swedish manufacturing sector shut down when everyone else shut down because of the supply chain situation,” he said. “This was entirely predictable.”
> 
> What remained in the government’s sphere of influence was how many people would die.
> 
> “There is just no questioning and no willingness from the Swedish government to really change tack, until it’s too late,” Kirkegaard said. “Which is astonishing, given that it’s been clear for quite some time that the economic gains that they claim to have gotten from this are just nonexistent.”
> 
> Norway, on the other hand, was not only quick to impose an aggressive lockdown, but early to relax it as the virus slowed, and as the government ramped up testing. It is now expected to see a more rapid economic turnaround. Norway’s central bank predicts that its mainland economy — excluding the turbulent oil and gas sector — will contract by 3.9% this year. That amounts to a marked improvement over the 5.5% decline expected in the midst of the lockdown.
> 
> Sweden’s laissez faire approach does appear to have minimized the economic damage compared with its neighbors in the first three months of the year, according to an assessment by the International Monetary Fund. But that effect has worn off as the force of the pandemic has swept through the global economy, and as Swedish consumers have voluntarily curbed their shopping anyway.
> 
> Researchers at the University of Copenhagen gained access to credit data from Danske Bank, one of the largest in Scandinavia. They studied spending patterns from mid-March, when Denmark put the clamps on the economy, to early April. The pandemic prompted Danes to reduce their spending 29% in that period, the study concluded. During the same weeks, consumers in Sweden — where freedom reigned — reduced their spending 25%.
> 
> Strikingly, older people — those over 70 — reduced their spending more in Sweden than in Denmark, perhaps concerned that the business-as-usual circumstances made going out especially risky.
> 
> Collectively, Scandinavian consumers are expected to continue spending far more robustly than in the United States, said Thomas Harr, global head of research at Danske Bank, emphasizing those nations’ generous social safety nets, including national health care systems. Americans, by contrast, tend to rely on their jobs for health care, making them more cautious about their health and their spending during the pandemic, knowing that hospitalization can be a gateway to financial calamity.
> 
> “It’s very much about the welfare state,” Harr said of Scandinavian countries. “You’re not as concerned about catching the virus, because you know that, if you do, the state is paying for health care.”




https://news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/07/08/20/sweden-has-become-the-worlds-cautionary-tale


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *French bus driver left brain-dead after alleged attack by men who wouldn't wear face masks*
> 
> French prosecutors on Wednesday charged two men with attempted murder after a bus driver was assaulted and left brain-dead in southwestern France for refusing to let aboard a group of people who were not wearing face masks.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/french-bus-driver-left-brain-dead-after-alleged-attack-by-men-who-wouldn-t-wear-face-masks-1.5015472





> *U.S. hits 3 million confirmed coronavirus cases as some states see surge of infections*
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-united-states-confirmed-cases-3-million/
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-updates-us-sets-grim-record-60000-cases/story?id=71665532
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/u-s-tops-3-million-known-infections-as-coronavirus-surges-idUSKBN2482JQ
> 
> https://apnews.com/d99797d1f997301413254dc5ed1c09e3


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. troops in Winnipeg face hostility over COVID-19 fears*
> 
> A string of hostile incidents in Winnipeg, which included two cars with U.S. licence plates being keyed, has some United States Air Force members stationed in the city speaking out.
> 
> As a partnership with the United States, somewhere between 10 and 100 American troops help out at the Canadian base in Winnipeg.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/u-s-troops-in-winnipeg-face-hostility-over-covid-19-fears-1.5018426


----------



## Remius

What the hell is wrong with people...


----------



## Brad Sallows

Long term?  People keep removing, in big and little pieces, things that are necessary for a civil society because something about the things offends them.


----------



## FJAG

There will never be a shortage of people who are morons regardless of what their political leanings or philosophies are. No particular element has a monopoly on stupidity nor is free of it.

 :not-again:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cases of 'broken heart syndrome' on the rise: study

Stress cardiomyopathy mimics a heart attack and can be triggered by emotional stress. 

Intense emotional events can release hormones that are thought to "stun" the heart and trigger takotsubo cardiomyopathy, also known as broken-heart syndrome. 


•	New U.S. study shows increase of takotsubo cardiomyopathy incidents, a temporary acute coronary syndrome, in 
March and April
•	Takotsubo cardiomyopathy is most common in women over the age of 50
•	Typically triggered by intensely stressful events and extreme emotions

The global toll and suffering as a result of the novel coronavirus has been heartbreaking, and now, new research shows 

COVID-19 may be breaking hearts. Literally.

Researchers from the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio have reported a significant increase in stress cardiomyopathy in patients who don’t have COVID-19, says a new small study published in JAMA Network Open.

Stress cardiomyopathy, also called takotsubo syndrome — sometimes referred to as broken heart syndrome — is a temporary syndrome triggered by emotional stress, surgery, or an underlying serious illness. It is believed the release of stress hormones can “stun” the heart and weaken the strength and vigour it needs when it contracts.

https://www.healthing.ca/diseases-and-conditions/coronavirus/cases-of-broken-heart-syndrome-on-the-rise-study


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *A mother with COVID-19 gave birth to a baby girl who also tested positive*
> 
> A baby girl in Texas tested positive for COVID-19 shortly after her birth, offering what researchers call the strongest evidence yet that the disease can be transmitted from mothers to children in the womb.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/a-mother-with-covid-19-gave-birth-to-a-baby-girl-who-also-tested-positive-1.5020994





> *30-year-old dies after attending 'COVID party' thinking virus was a 'hoax'*
> 
> "I think I made a mistake. I thought this was a hoax, but it's not."
> 
> Those were the final words of a 30-year-old patient who died at Methodist Hospital in San Antonio this week after attending a so-called "COVID party," according to the hospital.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/30-year-man-dies-attending-covid-party-thinking/story?id=71731414





> *New York reports lowest 3-day average coronavirus death toll since March 16*
> 
> ...
> 
> New York's momentum in stemming the virus' spread starkly contrasts realities in other parts of the country. Florida, California and Texas this week all reported their highest daily coronavirus death tolls yet. And according to data gathered by Johns Hopkins University, the United States reported more than 66,000 new cases on Friday, a record. On June 22, less than one month ago, only 30,500 cases were reported.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-coronavirus-cases-death-toll-lowest-3-day-average-since-march-16/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Donuts can kill you in more ways than one....

Coronavirus fears as Krispy Kreme offer attracts large number of people across NSW

NSW Police have branded a Krispy Kreme promotion as "nonsensical" as large groups of people queued for free doughnuts.

Police were called to patrol social distancing among doughnut-loving crowds in NSW yesterday.

The Krispy Kreme chain ran a giveaway offering a dozen doughnuts free to anyone who had a birthday between mid-March and mid-July, to celebrate the company's 83rd birthday.

As news of the free doughnuts spread, concern grew that social distancing was not being observed among those lining up at stores.

NSW Police confirmed general duties, traffic patrol and riot squad officers were among those called to "a number" of locations across Sydney on Monday.

Acting Assistant Commissioner Tony Cooke urged businesses to "act responsibly" during the health crisis.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-14/coronavirus-fears-over-krispy-kreme-doughnut-promotion/12454862


----------



## stellarpanther

I hope the CAF starts taking the wearing of mask more serious.  I'm a bit surprised how many people in offices are not wearing them around their coworkers.  Sure they put them on when a dealing with customers but that's not enough.  We can spread/catch it from a coworkers just as easy.  We need something from the top to come down with a clear directive which people need to follow


----------



## dangerboy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I hope the CAF starts taking the wearing of mask more serious.  I'm a bit surprised how many people in offices are not wearing them around their coworkers.  Sure they put them on when a dealing with customers but that's not enough.  We can spread/catch it from a coworkers just as easy.  We need something from the top to come down with a clear directive which people need to follow



That is strange that you have not received any clear direction. In ADM(Mat) we have received a lot of extremely clear direction on the use of masks, social distancing, even down to track plans within our building.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dangerboy said:
			
		

> That is strange that you have not received any clear direction. In ADM(Mat) we have received a lot of extremely clear direction on the use of masks, social distancing, even down to *track plans* within our building.



Cool. Maybe we can also set up range cards, sentries and stand do routines. Who says we can't salvage some perfectly good training out of all this mess!

#defensivepositionawesomeness


----------



## Jarnhamar

Been to a few buildings with track plans.

They're taken as seriously as DLN courses.


----------



## stellarpanther

I recall the message from the CDS a couple months ago but that's it.  I haven't heard anything since.   I'm hearing from people at other bases as well that it's not being enforced so a lot of people don't wear them.  As time goes buy people are acting like it's over.  I think they need to crackdown from the top to get tough and make sure supervisors wear them and enforce it on their people as well.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Been to a few buildings with track plans.
> 
> They're taken as seriously as DLN courses.



That's good that some are following the rules but I'm seeing it less and less.  I also have a good friend in North Bay but he's saying in the OR the HRA's are not wearing them when there are no customers.  They have a bullpen type setup with no walls or anything in between them.  A couple of the lower ranks want the policy enforced but because the supervisors are treating it like a joke, they don't wear them and don't complain.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Majority of new COVID-19 cases in Ontario involve people under 60*
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/majority-of-new-covid-19-cases-in-ontario-involve-people-under-60-1.5023386





> *Florida couple charged in northern Ontario after failing to self-isolate*
> 
> The couple entered Canada through Ontario’s Fort Erie border crossing on July 3 to go to a seasonal property, according to police.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7174550/florida-couple-ontario-isolation-coronavirus/





> *Florida anti-mask group rewarded maskless diners with free grilled cheese*
> 
> Anti-mask advocates were handing out free food to people who rejected science-based safety measures in Florida on Saturday, the same day the state set a new record with 15,300 new reported cases of COVID-19.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7174015/coronavirus-florida-no-mask-restaurant/


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's good that some are following the rules but I'm seeing it less and less.  I also have a good friend in North Bay but he's saying in the OR the HRA's are not wearing them when there are no customers.  They have a bullpen type setup with no walls or anything in between them.  A couple of the lower ranks want the policy enforced but because the supervisors are treating it like a joke, they don't wear them and don't complain.



Gotta hate when leaders brush off policies and act like rules don't apply to them. They probably think it's not a big deal  :nod:


----------



## dangerboy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Gotta hate when leaders brush off policies and act like rules don't apply to them. They probably think it's not a big deal  :nod:



Agreed, this is more of a leadership issue. You might not agree with the direction you have been given but once given it it is the job of all leaders to enforce it. You would not let troops go around not wearing their fragmentation vest if the boss says everyone will wear it due to the threat level, this is the same principle.


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Cool. Maybe we can also set up range cards, sentries and stand do routines. Who says we can't salvage some perfectly good training out of all this mess!
> 
> #defensivepositionawesomeness



It may be coincidental but I've worked along side brit infantry twice now and they were berserk about the defensive. They'd be in their trenches before Canadians even had their boots on. Awe inspiring IMO.

From a CBRN side I hope we come up with some solid routines and doctrines on how to react to this type of scenario in the future. Maybe a big push for decon platoons and CBRN courses.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Now if you could only wear a superheated nickel/foam mask....


https://uh.edu/news-events/stories/july-2020/07142020ren-covid-filter

Researchers Create Air Filter Designed to Trap and Kill the Coronavirus
Nickel Foam Filter is Designed to Catch, Heat and Kill the Virus and other Pathogens
By Jeannie Kever 713-743-0778
July 14, 2020


Researchers from the University of Houston, in collaboration with others, have designed a “catch and kill” air filter that can trap the virus responsible for COVID-19, killing it instantly.
Zhifeng Ren, director of the Texas Center for Superconductivity at UH, collaborated with Monzer Hourani, CEO of Medistar, a Houston-based medical real estate development firm, and other researchers to design the filter, which is described in a paper published in Materials Today Physics.
The researchers reported that virus tests at the Galveston National Laboratory found 99.8% of the novel SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, was killed in a single pass through a filter made from commercially available nickel foam heated to 200 degrees Centigrade, or about 392 degrees Fahrenheit. It also killed 99.9% of the anthrax spores in testing at the national lab, which is run by the University of Texas Medical Branch.
“This filter could be useful in airports and in airplanes, in office buildings, schools and cruise ships to stop the spread of COVID-19,” said Ren, MD Anderson Chair Professor of Physics at UH and co-corresponding author for the paper. “Its ability to help control the spread of the virus could be very useful for society.” Medistar executives are is also proposing a desk-top model, capable of purifying the air in an office worker’s immediate surroundings, he said.

Ren said the Texas Center for Superconductivity at the University of Houston (TcSUH) was approached by Medistar on March 31, as the pandemic was spreading throughout the United States, for help in developing the concept of a virus-trapping air filter.
Luo Yu of the UH Department of Physics and TcSUH along with Dr. Garrett K. Peel of Medistar and Dr. Faisal Cheema at the UH College of Medicine are co-first authors on the paper.
The researchers knew the virus can remain in the air for about three hours, meaning a filter that could remove it quickly was a viable plan. With businesses reopening, controlling the spread in air conditioned spaces was urgent.
And Medistar knew the virus can’t survive temperatures above 70 degrees Centigrade, about 158 degrees Fahrenheit, so the researchers decided to use a heated filter. By making the filter temperature far hotter – about 200 C – they were able to kill the virus almost instantly.
Ren suggested using nickel foam, saying it met several key requirements: It is porous, allowing the flow of air, and electrically conductive, which allowed it to be heated. It is also flexible.
But nickel foam has low resistivity, making it difficult to raise the temperature high enough to quickly kill the virus. The researchers solved that problem by folding the foam, connecting multiple compartments with electrical wires to increase the resistance high enough to raise the temperature as high as 250 degrees C.
By making the filter electrically heated, rather than heating it from an external source, the researchers said they minimized the amount of heat that escaped from the filter, allowing air conditioning to function with minimal strain.

A prototype was built by a local workshop and first tested at Ren’s lab for the relationship between voltage/current and temperature; it then went to the Galveston lab to be tested for its ability to kill the virus. Ren said it satisfies the requirements for conventional heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) systems.
“This novel biodefense indoor air protection technology offers the first-in-line prevention against environmentally mediated transmission of airborne SARS-CoV-2 and will be on the forefront of technologies available to combat the current pandemic and any future airborne biothreats in indoor environments,"  Cheema said.
Hourani and Peel have called for a phased roll-out of the device, “beginning with high-priority venues, where essential workers are at elevated risk of exposure (particularly schools, hospitals and health care facilities, as well as public transit environs such as airplanes).”

That will both improve safety for frontline workers in essential industries and allow nonessential workers to return to public work spaces, they said.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I hope the CAF starts taking the wearing of mask more serious.  I'm a bit surprised how many people in offices are not wearing them around their coworkers.  Sure they put them on when a dealing with customers but that's not enough.  We can spread/catch it from a coworkers just as easy.  We need something from the top to come down with a clear directive which people need to follow



There's 62 active COVID-19 cases in Ottawa Public Health's jurisdiction right now, can you blame people for not taking it seriously when the numbers are that low in a city of almost 1 million? If someone isn't wearing a mask, stay back 2 meters. Its more effective than the mask anyways, and is what is recommended by Ontario's Chief Medical Officer of health.

As already mentioned, there's plenty of CAF direction on mask/PPE/personal protection issues.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Police notified of 21,422 cases where travellers to Canada may have broken quarantine rules*
> 
> Police have been notified for follow-up in more than 21,000 cases where travellers arriving in Canada either couldn't be reached or showed "indication of non-compliance" with the mandatory 14-day quarantine rules.
> 
> Of the 21,422 referrals from the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) to the RCMP, nearly 1,500 were identified as "priority cases" for physical check-ups.
> 
> The RCMP and PHAC both confirmed the figures to CTV News -- though few punishments have been doled out to any suspected rule-breakers.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/police-notified-of-21-422-cases-where-travellers-to-canada-may-have-broken-quarantine-rules-1.5024380


----------



## CBH99

I know I asked this before, and I understand that freight would most likely account for a majority of border crossings while the border remains closed to most traffic.

However...


HOW ARE THERE 20,000+ TRAVELLERS in the first place, when the 'border is closed'?   Closed border is closed border.  Period.

That's 20,000+ travellers who may not have quarantined -- which indicates the number of people crossing the border is substantially higher.  Again...closed border??   ???



You have enough money to have a winter property with some palm trees in the back yard?  You have enough money to get by in the US until the situation gets to a point where the border is open again (Which is probably cheaper than here anyway)    :facepalm: :2c: :2c:


----------



## stellarpanther

My understanding of the law is that if you're a Canadian citizen or Permanent resident you can't be refused entry back into Canada.  The only thing they can do is inform them they are legally obligated to quarantine for 14 days.  No quick stop for groceries or whatever.  This I'm not clear about but I've heard several people say that if an American has a summer house/cottage in Canada, they are allowed to cross the border as well.  If true, I strongly disagree with that.


----------



## CBH99

*My own personal (frustrated) opinion*... Canadians have had MONTHS UPON MONTHS to get back home by now.

Given the exploding situation in the US, a closed border should just be a closed border.

You don't need too many folks coming across who are infected, to cause an absolute ton of public health & economic problems here.  



You haven't made a point of coming home yet, despite this situation being in what?  Month 6?  Too bad.  Can't be a responsible citizen?  You'll be allowed in once the border is open again.    :2c:

(Obviously the same exceptions would apply regarding freight, government personnel, etc)


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> . . .   This I'm not clear about but I've heard several people say that if an American has a summer house/cottage in Canada, they are allowed to cross the border as well.  If true, I strongly disagree with that.



Maybe there are several people that you should avoid listening to.

https://orders-in-council.canada.ca/attachment.php?attach=39438&lang=en


> . . .
> 
> Therefore, Her Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Health, pursuant to section 58 of the Quarantine Act makes the annexed Minimizing the Risk of Exposure to COVID-19 in Canada Order (Prohibition of Entry into Canada from the United States).
> 
> . . .
> 
> 
> Prohibition — signs and symptoms
> 
> 2 (1) A foreign national is prohibited from entering Canada from the United States if they have COVID-19 or have signs and symptoms of COVID-19 or have reasonable grounds to suspect they have such signs and symptoms, including
> 
> (a) a fever and cough; or
> 
> (b) a fever and breathing difficulties.
> 
> Non-application — certain persons
> 
> (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to persons referred to in subsection 5(1) or (2) who seek to enter Canada from the United States for the purpose of making a claim for refugee protection.
> 
> Prohibition — optional or discretionary purpose
> 
> 3 (1) A foreign national is prohibited from entering Canada from the United States if they seek to enter for an optional or discretionary purpose, such as tourism, recreation or entertainment.
> 
> Non-application — immediate family member
> 
> (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a foreign national who is an immediate family member of a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident, as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, if the foreign national intends to enter Canada to be with their immediate family member who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident and can demonstrate the intent to stay in Canada for a period of at least 15 days.
> 
> Prohibition — unable to meet quarantine requirement
> 
> 4 (1) A foreign national is prohibited from entering Canada from the United States if, based on the purpose of entry and the length of their stay, the requirement to quarantine under the Minimizing the Risk of Exposure to COVID-19 in Canada Order (Mandatory Isolation), No. 2 cannot be complied with.
> 
> Non-application — certain persons
> 
> (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to persons referred to in subsections 5(1) or (2) who seek to enter Canada from the United States for the purpose of making a claim for refugee protection.
> 
> . . .


----------



## stellarpanther

CBH99 said:
			
		

> *My own personal (frustrated) opinion*... Canadians have had MONTHS UPON MONTHS to get back home by now.
> 
> Given the exploding situation in the US, a closed border should just be a closed border.
> 
> You don't need too many folks coming across who are infected, to cause an absolute ton of public health & economic problems here.
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't made a point of coming home yet, despite this situation being in what?  Month 6?  Too bad.  Can't be a responsible citizen?  You'll be allowed in once the border is open again.    :2c:
> 
> (Obviously the same exceptions would apply regarding freight, government personnel, etc)



I agree with you.  They should have been given a certain time to return and that's it.  There is probably something in the Charter of Rights that says they can't stop them from crossing but I'm sure there are ways that could be temporarily suspended.  My feeling is that we've been lucky in this country so far because most of the stuff the government is doing is reactive instead of being proactive.  We are doing minimal compared to some countries.  Look at Australia right now, they started reopening and now have basically gone back to a strict lockdown.  Are our provincial governments and well as the federal government really that naive to think as they open more we risk the same think happening here as happened in the US and Australia and others?  Even with masks, why are they being so slow to mandate them?  There should be a federal law passed mandating it with enforcement and penalties otherwise what's the point


----------



## OldSolduer

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I agree with you.  They should have been given a certain time to return and that's it.  There is probably something in the Charter of Rights that says they can't stop them from crossing but I'm sure there are ways that could be temporarily suspended.  My feeling is that we've been lucky in this country so far because most of the stuff the government is doing is reactive instead of being proactive.  We are doing minimal compared to some countries.  Look at Australia right now, they started reopening and now have basically gone back to a strict lockdown.  Are our provincial governments and well as the federal government really that naive to think as they open more we risk the same think happening here as happened in the US and Australia and others?  Even with masks, why are they being so slow to mandate them?  There should be a federal law passed mandating it with enforcement and penalties otherwise what's the point



A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian. Our glorious leader stated that when he repealed the law that took away citizenship from naturalized Canadians who were terrorists.


----------



## ModlrMike

There won't be a federal law because the mandating of masks would likely require a Public Health order, which would be the domain of the provinces under the Canada Health Act.


----------



## stellarpanther

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There won't be a federal law because the mandating of masks would likely require a Public Health order, which would be the domain of the provinces under the Canada Health Act.



Fair enough but then the Provinces should issue it and it should be enforced with fines so people who are against mask don't just laugh it off and not follow it.  It's a if they are afraid to force the issue.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Fair enough but then the Provinces should issue it and it should be enforced with fines so people who are against mask don't just laugh it off and not follow it.  It's a if they are afraid to force the issue.



How many bylaw officers are you going to hire? There have been numerous massive protests in the streets, people crowding beaches and standing in lines at Costco in Ontario but yet the new daily case rate can't keep up with how many people are infected with COVID-19 in Ontario. There's less than 1500 active cases out of a population close to 14 million. Your mandatory mask rule is about 3 months too late.


----------



## stellarpanther

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> How many bylaw officers are you going to hire? There have been numerous massive protests in the streets, people crowding beaches and standing in lines at Costco in Ontario but yet the new daily case rate can't keep up with how many people are infected with COVID-19 in Ontario. There's less than 1500 active cases out of a population close to 14 million. Your mandatory mask rule is about 3 months too late.



It should have been issued months ago for sure but look at other countries who had low numbers and now after they let up with restrictions, the numbers are spiking again and they are going back into lockdown.  I'm not just talking about the US but it's happening in Australia and today I just read it's happening in Spain as well.  Opening up is obviously necessary for the economy and peoples livelihoods but if numbers spike in other countries it' common sense to assume it will happen here as well.  
As for hiring a ton of bylaw officer's, I don't think that's necessary.  Use the ones they have but make sure they take it serious.  I lost track of how many times I would see 20-30 or more people hanging out in a park and the police just drove on by without doing anything about it. They also have the ability to enforce bylaws.  They have rules in stores about shoes and shirts, you can't go into a grocery store and light up a smoke so why can't they say no mask no service?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Looks like the Colombian mob are setting the standard for lock down performance:

Colombian cartels killing those who don't obey their Covid-19 lockdowns

Human Rights Watch calls on government to do more to protect civilians after at least eight murdered by armed groups
Drug cartels and rebel groups are imposing their own bloody coronavirus lockdowns across Colombia – and killing those who do not obey, according to a new report by Human Rights Watch (HRW).

At least eight civilians have been murdered by the armed groups, some of them holdovers from Colombia’s half-century civil war, which are using Whatsapp chats and pamphlets to warn citizens of the lockdowns in the rural areas where they operate. 

In Tumaco, an impoverished and violent port city on the Pacific coast, residents are banned by gangs from fishing, limiting their ability to earn money and food. A 5pm curfew – far stricter than the measures imposed by the government – is also forcing street vendors inside.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jul/15/colombia-cartels-rebel-groups-coronavirus-lockdown-human-rights-watch


----------



## Remius

Makes sense in a twisted sort of way.  I wouldn’t be surprised if their normal flow has been disrupted, clients dying, etc.  Would rather this end to get back to business.

Or, maybe this affords them more freedom of movement.


----------



## brihard

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I agree with you.  They should have been given a certain time to return and that's it.  There is probably something in the Charter of Rights that says they can't stop them from crossing but I'm sure there are ways that could be temporarily suspended.  My feeling is that we've been lucky in this country so far because most of the stuff the government is doing is reactive instead of being proactive.  We are doing minimal compared to some countries.  Look at Australia right now, they started reopening and now have basically gone back to a strict lockdown.  Are our provincial governments and well as the federal government really that naive to think as they open more we risk the same think happening here as happened in the US and Australia and others?  Even with masks, why are they being so slow to mandate them?  There should be a federal law passed mandating it with enforcement and penalties otherwise what's the point



Section 6 of the Charter, mobility rights. Any citizen has an absolute right to enter Canada. This section cannot be subjected to the ‘notwithstanding’ clause. You make it to the border, you’re allowed in, full stop.

We could have chosen to use the Australian model, and compulsorily house everyone entering in guarded quarantine centres. We chose not to. That would of course have invoked its own Charter challenges.


----------



## stellarpanther

I'm not in favor of the Cartel's approach but if people would follow the rules as put out by the government they would have less problems.  If this is as serious as the government and many health experts are saying, then it should be enforced.  Again I'm not advocating for the death penalty for not wear a mask.  A nice fine should do the trick.
I'm curious about opinions on this.  People speed, some don't wear seatbelts etc.  When they are caught they are given a fine. The police also do blitzes.  Why not order the use of masks and do blitzes in the stores etc.  If it is as serious as they make it out to be then it should be done. Someone not wearing a seatbelt isn't going to effect the life of someone else but passing COVID to someone could.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Most of Canada’s new COVID-19 cases in people under 40*
> 
> Health officials are voicing concern as the majority of new COVID-19 cases are being found in people under the age of 40, especially as more bars and restaurants open for indoor service.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/most-of-canada-s-new-covid-19-cases-in-people-under-40-1.5650011
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/majority-of-new-covid-19-cases-in-canada-being-found-in-people-under-40-1.5650286





> *At least 26 flights have arrived in Canada with COVID-19 cases in last two weeks*
> 
> According to the federal government, COVID-19 cases have been reported among passengers on 10 domestic flights and 16 international flights since June 29. It advises the list is not exhaustive and is based on information from “provincial and territorial health authorities, international health authorities and public websites.”
> 
> The affected international flights arrived in Canadian airports from Mexico City, Cancun, Zurich, Paris, Addis Ababa, Islamabad, Lahore, Qatar, San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Dallas, Detroit, and three flights from Charlotte, N.C.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/at-least-26-flights-have-arrived-in-canada-with-covid-19-cases-in-last-two-weeks-1.5024278





> *Video showing Toronto restaurant patrons crammed together triggers investigation*
> 
> ...
> 
> Mayor John Tory has confirmed that the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario has launched an investigation into MARBL, located in the city’s downtown.
> 
> A video originally published to Instagram shows dozens of patrons crammed into a partially outdoor seating section while surrounded by unmasked employees carrying drinks.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7178267/toronto-marbl-video-covid19-crowding/





> *Walmart becomes biggest company to mandate customers wear masks*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronvirus-walmart/walmart-becomes-biggest-company-to-mandate-customers-wear-masks-idUSKCN24G28I
> 
> https://apnews.com/2efc9640fe70badfa6c8f6f5b3923f68


----------



## BDTyre

Around my area, the preferred method is education over enforcement/punishment. Some jurisdictions have issued tickets after having to talk to the same individuals or groups two or three times, but generally, if it is the first time, it's a talk.


----------



## lenaitch

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It should have been issued months ago for sure but look at other countries who had low numbers and now after they let up with restrictions, the numbers are spiking again and they are going back into lockdown.  I'm not just talking about the US but it's happening in Australia and today I just read it's happening in Spain as well.  Opening up is obviously necessary for the economy and peoples livelihoods but if numbers spike in other countries it' common sense to assume it will happen here as well.
> As for hiring a ton of bylaw officer's, I don't think that's necessary.  Use the ones they have but make sure they take it serious.  I lost track of how many times I would see 20-30 or more people hanging out in a park and the police just drove on by without doing anything about it. They also have the ability to enforce bylaws.  They have rules in stores about shoes and shirts, you can't go into a grocery store and light up a smoke so why can't they say no mask no service?



Store staff can, but there is an obvious general reluctance for many of them to confront a customer (which they desperately need) who is determined to make an issue of it.  We don't hear about the incidents where they are asked to don a mask - perhaps even given one - and readily and quietly comply.  There is longer social acceptance of smoking laws, which did not arise instantly.   There are folks out there who are quite willing to push the issue and I'm not surprised low-paid retail workers are reluctant to do law enforcement.  From today's news, some are producing fake 'mask exemption cards':

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/public-health-unit-warning-of-fake-face-mask-exemption-cards-1.5025497

It may well be different in urban areas with a reasonably-sized bylaw enforcement staff, but many of the resort areas in Ontario with beaches and other sites that attract crowds are in small municipalities with enforcement staff of perhaps one or two, and are policed by the OPP who are not typically empowered to enforce bylaws unless it is part of the contract (which most are not).

I'm not that familiar with bylaw enforcement, but in order to write a Provincial Offence Notice (ticket) there needs to be an approved offence wording and set fine.  In normal times, that process takes time; I imagine during these 'unprecedented times', it's no better.  Without the ability to write an offence notice, enforcement has to be done via summons, which is a cumbersome process.  I don't know why the police you saw were "driving by" apparently obvious violations.  Perhaps they are taking the position that they want a complaint from the property owner.  Education and voluntary compliance should be to goal, not hanging paper.


----------



## BDTyre

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I don't know why the police you saw were "driving by" apparently obvious violations.  Perhaps they are taking the position that they want a complaint from the property owner.  Education and voluntary compliance should be to goal, not hanging paper.



Where I live, it's a bylaw issue. Police don't have the authority to issue a ticket for violating social distancing - it has to be a bylaw officer, or surprisingly, a liquor officer or gaming officer (I believe - I guess the province has given the same authority as bylaw officers). Police have advised our community if there are concerns after business, police can attend to disperse the crowd and take info to pass on to bylaw.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Nearly 5,000 U.S. citizens tried to enter Canada for shopping, recreation amid pandemic: CBSA*
> 
> According to new data from the Canada Border Services Agency, more than 10,000 U.S. citizens have been turned away at the Canadian border during the pandemic — and almost half of them were hoping to enter Canada to shop, go sightseeing or simply for recreation.
> 
> According to new figures sent to CTVNews.ca by the CBSA, 10,329 U.S. citizens have been turned away from our shared border between March 22 and July 12. More than a quarter of them were barred from entering after revealing they were coming to Canada to sightsee, despite the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> While half of the U.S. citizens were turned back for “other” reasons, which the CBSA did not expand on, a little over 2,700 citizens had to turn back when they said they were hoping to cross the border for "tourism" or "sightseeing." More than 1,200 were rejected after revealing their trip was recreational in nature.
> 
> More than 500 Americans were sent back home after they said they were coming to Canada to shop, despite physical distancing measures that have prevented Canadians themselves from frequenting their own retail stores.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/nearly-5-000-u-s-citizens-tried-to-enter-canada-for-shopping-recreation-amid-pandemic-cbsa-1.5025674


----------



## The Bread Guy

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Store staff can, but there is an obvious general reluctance for many of them to confront a customer (which they desperately need) who is determined to make an issue of it ...


... especially when the situation can deteriorate ...


> Ontario's police watchdog is investigating a fatal police-involved shooting in Haliburton County that started with a report about a man who was refusing to wear a mask at a grocery store.
> 
> The incident started at a Valu-mart on Highway 35 in the township of Minden, and ended around 40 kilometres away near a residence on Indian Point Road, east of the Village of Haliburton.
> 
> Ontario Provincial Police said that officers were called to the grocery store at around 8 a.m. following a report that there was a man who was refusing to wear a mask and had assaulted several people at the store.
> 
> "He refused to wear a mask at the store. He was refused service and the assault happened thereafter. So our people became involved with that initial assault investigation and follow-up," OPP Sgt. Jason Folz said ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Here's a bit more from the SIU ...


> ... Preliminary information suggests the following:
> 
> - At approximately 9:25 a.m. on July 15, 2020, the Ontario Provincial Police was notified that a 73-year-old man had assaulted individuals at a Valu-mart grocery store on Highway 35 in Minden. The man then left the grocery store in a vehicle.
> - An officer observed the vehicle and commenced following it for a short period of time.
> - Based on a query of the vehicle’s licence plate, officers made their way to a residence on Indian Point Road.
> - Outside the residence, there was an interaction with the man and two officers discharged their firearms.
> - The man was struck. He was transported to hospital where he was pronounced deceased at 11:47 a.m. ...


----------



## Remius

All this over a mask...

It is quite literally one of the easiest things to do.  In Canada we wear masks all winter.  Why is this so hard for some people and why get worked up over it.  FFS.


----------



## FJAG

Remius said:
			
		

> All this over a mask...
> 
> It is quite literally one of the easiest things to do.  In Canada we wear masks all winter.  Why is this so hard for some people and why get worked up over it.  FFS.



Maybe ... maybe deep down ... maybe deep down we're a really stupid species.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Florida reports biggest one-day increase in COVID-19 deaths since pandemic started*
> 
> Florida reported on Thursday the largest one-day increase in deaths from the novel coronavirus since the pandemic began and its second-largest increase in cases ever.
> 
> Florida announced 13,965 new cases on Thursday, bringing the total number of cases in the state and the center of the latest outbreak to over 315,775, according to the state health department.
> 
> Florida’s COVID deaths rose by 156 to a total of 4,782, surpassing its previous one-day record of 133 new deaths on July 12.
> 
> Hospitalizations of patients with COVID-19 was the highest ever reported at 8,626 currently hospitalized, up 321 in the past 24 hours, according to a state agency.
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-florida/florida-reports-biggest-one-day-increase-in-covid-19-deaths-since-pandemic-started-idUSKCN24H2IK
> 
> https://apnews.com/9636c1b98f0c7c5efb9afe5189c882dd





> *List of national retail chains requiring masks is growing*
> 
> Two major retailers on Thursday joined the growing list of national chains that will require customers to wear face masks regardless of where cities or states stand on the issue.
> 
> Target’s mandatory face mask policy will go into effect Aug. 1, and all CVS stores will begin requiring them on Monday.
> 
> ...
> 
> The announcements come one day after the nation’s largest retailer, Walmart, said that it would mandate face shields for all customers starting Monday.
> 
> Starbucks, Best Buy, Kohl’s and Kroger Co. have also announced mandatory masks nationwide.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/38e315e50096d935d3f34383adbafab6





> *Russia trying to steal COVID-19 vaccine data, say UK, U.S. and Canada*
> 
> ...
> 
> A co-ordinated statement from Britain, the United States and Canada attributed the attacks to group APT29, also known as ‘Cozy Bear’, which they said was almost certainly operating as part of Russian intelligence services.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-cyber/russia-trying-to-steal-covid-19-vaccine-data-say-uk-u-s-and-canada-idUSKCN24H236
> 
> https://apnews.com/47797e89ddb470b3244fae3a799481c5
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/russian-hackers-have-tried-to-steal-covid-19-research-1.5026553
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tunney-cse-1.5651697
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7183585/russian-hackers-target-canada-u-s-and-u-k-covid-19-vaccine-research-intelligence-agency-says/


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Here's a bit more from the SIU ...



The Peterborough Examiner has the OPP media Sgt saying that police were shot at on arrival at the residence. https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/news/peterborough-region/2020/07/15/siu-investigating-police-involved-fatal-shooting-in-haliburton-highlands.html

Separately, SIU have recovered a handgun and a semiauto rifle from the residence, separate from the officers’ firearms that are held for the the investigation.

So it looks like it was don’t wear mask -> get offered free mask -> assault person at store -> lead police on a pursuit, which they break off for safety -> police run license plate and show up at residence -> police get shot at -> 73 year old man shot dead and two firearms seized.

So, yeah.


----------



## FJAG

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Peterborough Examiner has the OPP media Sgt saying that police were shot at on arrival at the residence. https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/news/peterborough-region/2020/07/15/siu-investigating-police-involved-fatal-shooting-in-haliburton-highlands.html
> 
> Separately, SIU have recovered a handgun and a semiauto rifle from the residence, separate from the officers’ firearms that are held for the the investigation.
> 
> So it looks like it was don’t wear mask -> get offered free mask -> assault person at store -> lead police on a pursuit, which they break off for safety -> police run license plate and show up at residence -> police get shot at -> 73 year old man shot dead and two firearms seized.
> 
> So, yeah.



I say again: Maybe ... maybe deep down ... maybe deep down we're a really stupid species.


----------



## stellarpanther

FJAG said:
			
		

> I say again: Maybe ... maybe deep down ... maybe deep down we're a really stupid species.



I think you hit the nail on the head, we're not too bright on a lot of things.


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Peterborough Examiner has the OPP media Sgt saying that police were shot at on arrival at the residence. https://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/news/peterborough-region/2020/07/15/siu-investigating-police-involved-fatal-shooting-in-haliburton-highlands.html
> 
> Separately, SIU have recovered a handgun and a semiauto rifle from the residence, separate from the officers’ firearms that are held for the the investigation.
> 
> So it looks like it was don’t wear mask -> get offered free mask -> assault person at store -> lead police on a pursuit, which they break off for safety -> police run license plate and show up at residence -> police get shot at -> 73 year old man shot dead and two firearms seized.
> 
> So, yeah.



Hope to be proved wrong, but feel like this the tip of the iceberg for these and similar type of activities, especially if there is a second wave. I notice a significant amount of tension/unease in my day to day dealings with people that didn't exist 4 months ago. I fear for the ramifications if the economic, social, and psychological situations (in many cases inter-dependent) do not stabilize.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Alot of people are not doing well mentally or emotionally. It is going to be a very rough fall/winter if there is not some light at the end of the tunnel. Suicides will be the least of it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Waiting to see if people can connect the dots and realize that minor, if antisocial, activity can lead to a lethal use of force and think about whether chains of events that lead to unnecessary deaths can't be broken sooner.  I don't mean the police, and I don't mean that every citizen has to overlook every infraction and insult, but there is a spectrum from "enforce nothing" to "enforce everything".


----------



## macarena

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Nearly 5,000 U.S. citizens tried to enter Canada for shopping, recreation amid pandemic: CBSA



Hi, mates!
I clap to Canada authorities for having take such security mesures in order to protect its people.  :cdnsalute:
I've been following the numbers for Canada, and I am glad to say that Canada and Portugal are providing more security and health to the people, than Brazil and USA.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Weinie said:
			
		

> Hope to be proved wrong, but feel like this the tip of the iceberg for these and similar type of activities, especially if there is a second wave. I notice a significant amount of tension/unease in my day to day dealings with people that didn't exist 4 months ago. I fear for the ramifications if the economic, social, and psychological situations (in many cases inter-dependent) do not stabilize.




I observed some of that yesterday, here in Ottawa, in a building ~ most people, including me, properly masked, but a few seeming rather defiantly unmaskd and rudely refusing the mall (unofficial) security staff's (polite) request to "please put on a mask in the public area."

Same place: the lady at the drugstore counter refused to check out an unmasked customer who then walked out with (the saleslady guessed) $25 to $50 worth of merchandise.

I cannot remember this sort of conduct in my middle-income neighbourhood, ever, and I've lived here for 20+ years.


----------



## blacktriangle

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I observed some of that yesterday, here in Ottawa, in a building ~ most people, including me, properly masked, but a few seeming rather defiantly unmasked and rudely refusing the mall (unofficial) security staff's (polite) request to "please put on a mask in the public area."
> 
> Same place: the lady at the drugstore counter refused to check out an unmasked customer who then walked out with (the saleslady guessed) $25 to $50 worth of merchandise.
> 
> I cannot remember this sort of conduct in my middle-income neighbourhood, ever, and I've lived here for 20+ years.



I witnessed something similar at Billings Bridge in Ottawa. What concerns me most, is that things aren't really that bad yet. Money is still flowing. What happens when the taps shut off and austerity measures kick in?


----------



## CBH99

FJAG said:
			
		

> I say again: Maybe ... maybe deep down ... maybe deep down we're a really stupid species.




I agree with the other poster.  I think you hit the nail on the head.


I'm in Edmonton, and honestly life here has pretty much gone back to normal.  There aren't any mandatory masks, restaurants just have clear plastic barriers between the tables - or seat people apart from each other.  Gyms are open.  Malls are open, although quite a few stores apparently went out of business.

Overall, life is pretty much back to normal.


----------



## suffolkowner

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Store staff can, but there is an obvious general reluctance for many of them to confront a customer (which they desperately need) who is determined to make an issue of it.  We don't hear about the incidents where they are asked to don a mask - perhaps even given one - and readily and quietly comply.  There is longer social acceptance of smoking laws, which did not arise instantly.   There are folks out there who are quite willing to push the issue and I'm not surprised low-paid retail workers are reluctant to do law enforcement.  From today's news, some are producing fake 'mask exemption cards':
> 
> https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/public-health-unit-warning-of-fake-face-mask-exemption-cards-1.5025497
> 
> It may well be different in urban areas with a reasonably-sized bylaw enforcement staff, but many of the resort areas in Ontario with beaches and other sites that attract crowds are in small municipalities with enforcement staff of perhaps one or two, and are policed by the OPP who are not typically empowered to enforce bylaws unless it is part of the contract (which most are not).
> 
> I'm not that familiar with bylaw enforcement, but in order to write a Provincial Offence Notice (ticket) there needs to be an approved offence wording and set fine.  In normal times, that process takes time; I imagine during these 'unprecedented times', it's no better.  Without the ability to write an offence notice, enforcement has to be done via summons, which is a cumbersome process.  I don't know why the police you saw were "driving by" apparently obvious violations.  Perhaps they are taking the position that they want a complaint from the property owner.  Education and voluntary compliance should be to goal, not hanging paper.



Lenaitch

Why is this a bylaw thing though? Bylaw enforcement is just a cash grab by municipalities and has little to due with the law/justice/social order. It's obvious a lot of people are stressed more than usual which I find a little surprising considering how much time young people are on their phones, I would have thought they would have handled the social distancing well. Although perhaps it is not the young people that are having the greatest difficulty. It's interesting that my experiences seem to differ so much from others. I go into a store 99% of the customers are masked and maybe 65% of the staff.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

This is where Sweden's strategy of making everything a suggestion rather than arbitrarily forcing compliance down peoples throats is a better and more sustainable strategy in the long term.

Many people don't trust the Government, the Government has been disjointed and inconsistent in its messaging throughout this crisis.  

As for younger people being stressed, none of us are stressed, I can assure you.  The only ones who are stressed are boomers.  My parents spend every single minute of their lives worrying about COVID, masks, etc.  They are at an age where this disease would most certainly kill them if they were infected, particularly my Father who hasn't lived the healthiest of lives.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> This is where Sweden's strategy of making everything a suggestion rather than arbitrarily forcing compliance down peoples throats is a better and more sustainable strategy in the long term.
> 
> Many people don't trust the Government, the Government has been disjointed and inconsistent in its messaging throughout this crisis.
> 
> As for younger people being stressed, none of us are stressed, I can assure you.  The only ones who are stressed are boomers.  My parents spend every single minute of their lives worrying about COVID, masks, etc.  They are at an age where this disease would most certainly kill them if they were infected, particularly my Father who hasn't lived the healthiest of lives.



That solely depends on personal preference. Some people simply don’t like being told what to do, period. And Sweden’s stats and numbers, as mentioned earlier in the thread reflect that sustainability is irrelevant. They are now at par and/or worse off than neighbouring countries who took a firmer approach. 

Your assertion that only “boomers” are concerned and absolutely no younger people are stressed is grossly inaccurate, and I can only assume you feel that way based on your geographical location, and/or peer group and/or individual experience, or any combination thereof. In Ontario, while there’s certainly a population of those with a more laissez fair attitude wrt Covid-19 and contracting it, there’s a significant percentage of those (I’ll say 16-30yo) who are still taking it seriously and willingly abiding by the policies stipulated. Don’t get me wrong, they’re not thrilled but they recognize the risks and don’t want to become ill themselves. Are they perhaps not _as_ concerned about it affecting them detrimentally if they catch it? That’s probably more accurate. But to assert that “ none of us are stressed”, is just plain wrong and I’m quite positive that the 20-something yo mbr of my unit who caught it and whose mother passed away from it has a lot to say on the matter too.

Many are still dismissing and/or forgetting the role that geography is playing on just how much one is being affected physically and psychologically. Take a focus group out of Toronto or Calgary and compare it with a focus group of the same size, age and relative demographics out of Cold Lake or Victoria or Halifax, etc and you’ll get a very different consensus of the overall effects and the toll everything has taken on them. 

Edit to add: I should say in _my_ part of Ontario...


----------



## QV

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/swedish-covid-expert-says-the-world-still-doesnt-understand

Might be too early to call Sweden a failure, time will tell.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

QV said:
			
		

> https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/swedish-covid-expert-says-the-world-still-doesnt-understand
> 
> Might be too early to call Sweden a failure, time will tell.



This article is from 08Jul20, bit after yours.

 https://news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/07/08/20/sweden-has-become-the-worlds-cautionary-tale


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> That solely depends on personal preference. Some people simply don’t like being told what to do, period. And Sweden’s stats and numbers, as mentioned earlier in the thread reflect that sustainability is irrelevant. They are now at par and/or worse off than neighbouring countries who took a firmer approach.
> 
> Your assertion that only “boomers” are concerned and absolutely no younger people are stressed is grossly inaccurate, and I can only assume you feel that way based on your geographical location, and/or peer group and/or individual experience, or any combination thereof. In Ontario, while there’s certainly a population of those with a more laissez fair attitude wrt Covid-19 and contracting it, there’s a significant percentage of those (I’ll say 16-30yo) who are still taking it seriously and willingly abiding by the policies stipulated. Don’t get me wrong, they’re not thrilled but they recognize the risks and don’t want to become ill themselves. Are they perhaps not _as_ concerned about it affecting them detrimentally if they catch it? That’s probably more accurate. But to assert that “ none of us are stressed”, is just plain wrong and I’m quite positive that the 20-something yo mbr of my unit who caught it and whose mother passed away from it has a lot to say on the matter too.
> 
> Many are still dismissing and/or forgetting the role that geography is playing on just how much one is being affected physically and psychologically. Take a focus group out of Toronto or Calgary and compare it with a focus group of the same size, age and relative demographics out of Cold Lake or Victoria or Halifax, etc and you’ll get a very different consensus of the overall effects and the toll everything has taken on them.



I won't disagree with you that Sweden's numbers are worse than it's neighbours but that was always going to be the case with their strategy. They also did better than the UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc who all imposed hard lockdowns. That being said, we shall what the outcome is in wave number 2 as to whether their strategy is valid or not.  Their number of hospitalizations is lower than ours now and I have a feeling that long term, they will be better off when looking at this from all factors and social determinants of health.

As for myself, yes some of my views are derived from individual experience but I also read a lot.  I try and remain objective and if you must know, I own multiple masks and wear them at work (because we have to even though a lot of times it makes little sense to do so) and out of respect for others.  

I have some friends that are deathly afraid of COVID, I wear a mask around them out of respect for them even though I think their fears are often greatly exaggerated.  

As for people dying, it's a part of life. We are all going to die someday and someone somewhere is dying right now.  Maybe it's COVID that kills them or maybe it's something else.  BC is presently going through an opoid crisis that has been made exponentially worse by COVID restrictions.  We have had 189 people die since COVID restrictions were implemented nearly four months ago.  

We had record numbers of people die of drug overdoses in May and June, many times more than number of people who passed away from COVID.  Sometimes, the cure is worse than the disease itself.  

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/most-overdose-deaths-ever-in-b-c-for-second-consecutive-month

That's why I think it's foolish to look at COVID death rate in isolation like so many are doing.  Mass unemployment will lead to drastically shorter lifespans as well.  There are many factors that aren't being considered with our present reactionary measures.

It's a simple case of politics now overtaking basic common sense.  The same people telling us we have to wear masks were also loudly shouting to get out and protest even though anyone with basic math skills and the ability to read a simple graph can see that the protests most definitely triggered the massive spike in COVID cases in the US, especially considering incubation and the fact the virus spreads exponentially.


----------



## QV

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> This article is from 08Jul20, bit after yours.
> 
> https://news.abs-cbn.com/overseas/07/08/20/sweden-has-become-the-worlds-cautionary-tale



I think there is more to this analysis that only time will tell.  

https://fee.org/articles/why-sweden-succeeded-in-flattening-the-curve-and-new-york-failed/?utm_medium=related_widget

This link shows Sweden is not even in the top 10 worst affected as of June 23rd... https://www.statista.com/chart/21170/coronavirus-death-rate-worldwide/


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I won't disagree with you that Sweden's numbers are worse than it's neighbours but that was always going to be the case with their strategy. They also did better than the UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, etc who all imposed hard lockdowns. That being said, we shall what the outcome is in wave number 2 as to whether their strategy is valid or not.  Their number of hospitalizations is lower than ours now and I have a feeling that long term, they will be better off when looking at this from all factors and social determinants of health.
> 
> As for myself, yes some of my views are derived from individual experience but I also read a lot.  I try and remain objective and if you must know, I own multiple masks and wear them at work (because we have to even though a lot of times it makes little sense to do so) and out of respect for others.
> 
> I have some friends that are deathly afraid of COVID, I wear a mask around them out of respect for them even though I think their fears are often greatly exaggerated.
> 
> As for people dying, it's a part of life. We are all going to die someday and someone somewhere is dying right now.  Maybe it's COVID that kills them or maybe it's something else.  BC is presently going through an opoid crisis that has been made exponentially worse by COVID restrictions.  We have had 189 people die since COVID restrictions were implemented nearly four months ago.
> 
> We had record numbers of people die of drug overdoses in May and June, many times more than number of people who passed away from COVID.  Sometimes, the cure is worse than the disease itself.
> 
> https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/most-overdose-deaths-ever-in-b-c-for-second-consecutive-month
> 
> That's why I think it's foolish to look at COVID death rate in isolation like so many are doing.  Mass unemployment will lead to drastically shorter lifespans as well.  There are many factors that aren't being considered with our present reactionary measures.
> 
> It's a simple case of politics now overtaking basic common sense.  The same people telling us we have to wear masks were also loudly shouting to get out and protest even though anyone with basic math skills and the ability to read a simple graph can see that the protests most definitely triggered the massive spike in COVID cases in the US, especially considering incubation and the fact the virus spreads exponentially.



This is a harsh example, but I can’t help but think of the HIV/AIDS misconceptions, misinformation, etc etc that riddled us with fear and filled everyone with ludicrous ideas of how we could contract it, how it was spread, what to do, what not to do, how to protect ourselves, where it came from, who was going to suffer from it, how it was going to kill those infected and why...

For those of us old enough to recall, looking back now, the advice initially given and info shared was downright insulting, laughable, and incorrect. Much of it was meant to ostracize and divide and discriminate. I was young...under 10. But I still remember several commercials and newscasts of the time. Movies, messages, the ever-present God-fearing folk who said it was a punishment—It was just asinine. Thankfully, as time progressed, further research and study was conducted. Scientists learned more and more and medical advice deviated a lot along the way. We now know that you can’t contract it from kissing, or spread it through contact with a water fountain, and there’s no reason to fear hugging or touching an HIV infected individual. We better know the risks and when/how to protect ourselves, the accurate origins, and so forth.

There are very notable comparisons between the discovery of both viruses, how mankind has reacted to them, and also how the process of science/research and knowledge about them has evolved—has been communicated. Researchers will be studying this for some time and there’s little doubt that recommendations will continue to change. 

As well, it needs to be understood that we live in a very different age now, as oppose to the early 80s. Practically everything is about who can get the info out the fastest and to how many. The Information Age has made it much easier to rush the spread of data, facts, opinions, etc, especially when under the scrutiny of panicked individuals. Then, of course, throw in the factors of availability of incomplete and/or incorrect information mixed with global entities who have a reputation of not exactly being forthright, and there was simply no way anything was going to unfold smoothly. Oh, and we also can’t forget the never-ending barrage of conspiracy theorists, extremists (political, religious, etc), those out for their own gain and/or just plain ignorant people. It’s even harder to maintain and monitor the expansion of legitimate data/findings.

One thing I’ve learned/observed (as have you and many others, I’m sure), is that common sense isn’t common—it’s barely regional anymore. We, the collective, can’t police ourselves. We can’t be assured to exact policy together for the greater good, we aren’t able to equally balance the needs of ourselves and others at the same time. We can’t be depended upon to exercise appropriate discretion in order to protect our societies. We’re a disaster. (Individuals or small groups can get buy, but those groups are small and usually don’t stay together for long before corruption or power struggles at some level arise.) So we need clear and concise policies/legislations/laws that are _supposed_ to aid with maintaining social organization and to keep thing running smoothly. 

I agree that all of this has become far too politicized, especially south of us. I’m personally not affected by recommendations changing as we move forward. That’s normal when dealing with something for the first time—even more so when on a large scale. But because there are those who are convinced of some nefarious purpose behind conflicting or evolving information, it’s fuel for dissenting attitudes/opinions and further unrest.


----------



## QV

Over the last few years I think the trust in our institutions has been damaged to a new low.  Most of that damage is self inflicted.  The internet and social media does not allow MSM to have a monopoly on the "facts" any longer, and that is resulting in some revelations.  This is of course double edged.

In the case of COVID-19, I feel the flip/flop messaging, interjection of identity politics (and politics), and credible reports of data manipulation have further degraded that trust.  And to some, reliance on obviously corrupted (or at least improperly influenced in this situation) orgs like the WHO has damaged our leaders' credibility and ability.   

This helps no one.  And I don't know where we go from here.  Is it simply an election away from correction?  Doubtful.


----------



## brihard

QV said:
			
		

> I think there is more to this analysis that only time will tell.
> 
> https://fee.org/articles/why-sweden-succeeded-in-flattening-the-curve-and-new-york-failed/?utm_medium=related_widget
> 
> This link shows Sweden is not even in the top 10 worst affected as of June 23rd... https://www.statista.com/chart/21170/coronavirus-death-rate-worldwide/



Firstly, that data is three weeks old.

Secondly, it’s not saying what you think it’s saying. That chart limited its data to the ten countries which, three weeks ago, had the greatest number of cases. Then, within those ten, it ranked by fatalities per capita.

Sweden is currently at #7 in the world for fatalities per capita. San Marino and Andorra are both on the list but are minuscule and could be reasonably excluded as too small a sample size for meaningful comparison. That leaves Sweden behind only Belgium, UK, Spain and Italy for per capita death rates. Sweden is worse than the US, Russia, India, and all other countries except those listed above. Their deaths per capita are well over twice ours.

So, if your intent is to suggest that Sweden is ‘doing well’ with their current approach, the  proportion of seeds who are now dead due to COVID suggests otherwise. Interestingly, around that same time - three weeks ago - was when Sweden’s new cases peaked. They appear to have realized their earlier approach was a failure, and to have tried something else.


----------



## Ralph

Brihard said:
			
		

> Firstly, that data is three weeks old.
> 
> Secondly, it’s not saying what you think it’s saying. That chart limited its data to the ten countries which, three weeks ago, had the greatest number of cases. Then, within those ten, it ranked by fatalities per capita.
> 
> Sweden is currently at #7 in the world for fatalities per capita. San Marino and Andorra are both on the list but are minuscule and could be reasonably excluded as too small a sample size for meaningful comparison. That leaves Sweden behind only Belgium, UK, Spain and Italy for per capita death rates. Sweden is worse than the US, Russia, India, and all other countries except those listed above. Their deaths per capita are well over twice ours.
> 
> So, if your intent is to suggest that Sweden is ‘doing well’ with their current approach, the  proportion of seeds who are now dead due to COVID suggests otherwise. Interestingly, around that same time - three weeks ago - was when Sweden’s new cases peaked. They appear to have realized their earlier approach was a failure, and to have tried something else.



I don't want to blow anybody's minds, but only interviewing the guy who came up with Sweden's COVID-19 plan on his thoughts about his plan might be introducing some bias into the conversation...


----------



## QV

Brihard said:
			
		

> Firstly, that data is three weeks old.
> 
> Secondly, it’s not saying what you think it’s saying. That chart limited its data to the ten countries which, three weeks ago, had the greatest number of cases. Then, within those ten, it ranked by fatalities per capita.
> 
> Sweden is currently at #7 in the world for fatalities per capita. San Marino and Andorra are both on the list but are minuscule and could be reasonably excluded as too small a sample size for meaningful comparison. That leaves Sweden behind only Belgium, UK, Spain and Italy for per capita death rates. Sweden is worse than the US, Russia, India, and all other countries except those listed above. Their deaths per capita are well over twice ours.
> 
> So, if your intent is to suggest that Sweden is ‘doing well’ with their current approach, the  proportion of seeds who are now dead due to COVID suggests otherwise. Interestingly, around that same time - three weeks ago - was when Sweden’s new cases peaked. They appear to have realized their earlier approach was a failure, and to have tried something else.



Right, so Sweden despite not locking down is doing better than some countries that did. I'm not taking a position one way or the other. I'm pointing out we shouldn't write off Sweden just yet and only over a longer period of time will we know if Sweden took the better approach overall.


----------



## Brad Sallows

So Sweden is worse.  Shouldn't it be a lot worse, rather than a little worse?


----------



## brihard

QV said:
			
		

> Right, so Sweden despite not locking down is doing better than some countries that did. I'm not taking a position one way or the other. I'm pointing out we shouldn't write off Sweden just yet and only over a longer period of time will we know if Sweden took the better approach overall.



The four sizable countries they’re behind- Belgium, UK, Italy and Spain, got slammed early and hard. Italy and Spain were the first western nations to deal with a sizeable outbreak, with little prior knowledge to benefit from. Ultimately they got it under control by clamping down massively. Britain started off with a ‘let it burn through’ approach, which as we all know went poorly. I cannot speak for Belgium.

I would suggest that to be in the seven worst-off countries in the world by per capita deaths doesn’t suggest Sweden acquitted itself well at all. There are close to two hundred countries with lower per capital fatalities. Their early approach, like Britain’s, is a failure.


----------



## PuckChaser

Business capacity is still locked down and mask orders everywhere, but there's currently only 4,000 active cases in a population of 37 million spread out over 10 million square KMs. Quebec wasn't properly recording recoveries, numbers across the board are down 80% (see second link).

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/active-coronavirus-cases-in-canada-plummet-as-quebec-changes-recovery-criteria-1.5028586



> Active coronavirus cases in Canada plummet as Quebec changes recovery criteria
> Jonathan Forani
> CTVNews.ca Writer
> 
> Published Friday, July 17, 2020 1:24PM EDT
> 
> TORONTO -- Without explaining its new criteria, Quebec announced a dramatic rise in the number of “recovered” COVID-19 cases in the province and a new system for measuring them.
> 
> A whopping 23,686 people were recorded as newly recovered in Quebec on Friday. The undisclosed new system slashes the number of active cases in Canada by more than 80 per cent.
> 
> On Thursday, there were a reported 27,603 active cases across the country, but Friday’s announcement in Quebec brings the total number of active cases in Canada to just 4,058.
> 
> The change comes after weeks of Quebec’s recovery figures lagging behind other provinces with active cases still exceeding 25,000. Daily recovery numbers ranged from as low as 49 on Monday, to as high as 156 on Thursday.
> 
> There are now just 1,556 active cases in Quebec.



Here's why Quebec's active caseload was so high https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-covid-19-recovery-rate-skyrockets-after-new-system-implemented-1.5028344



> Essentially, Quebec had been unique in not assuming people had recovered from COVID-19 if they weren't in hospital or deceased. Once people tested positive, if there was no further proof of their recovery, their case would still be listed as active.
> 
> Starting now, however, "a new algorithm is being applied retroactively" to account for these cases and make it possible to estimate their numbers, the public health agency wrote.
> 
> Anyone who has tested positive and who hasn't died or is currently hospitalized will be counted as recovered after a certain period of time, which changes depending on certain factors.
> 
> For most people, once 14 days have passed since a positive test, they'll be considered recovered if not hospitalized or deceased. For people considered immunosuppressed, the algorithm will count them as recovered after 21 days. And for people over age 80 or living in long-term care homes, it's 28 days.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> The four sizable countries they’re behind- Belgium, UK, Italy and Spain, got slammed early and hard. Italy and Spain were the first western nations to deal with a sizeable outbreak, with little prior knowledge to benefit from. Ultimately they got it under control by clamping down massively. Britain started off with a ‘let it burn through’ approach, which as we all know went poorly. I cannot speak for Belgium.
> 
> I would suggest that to be in the seven worst-off countries in the world by per capita deaths doesn’t suggest Sweden acquitted itself well at all. There are close to two hundred countries with lower per capital fatalities. Their early approach, like Britain’s, is a failure.



Two points about Belgium and why their death rate is so high.

1) they have the highest amount of people in care homes per capita in Europe.

2) they count probable and suspected deaths, not just confirmed COVID deaths.  So if they have 10 confirmed deaths in a care home and 10 unconfirmed they count all 20 because there is a pattern there.

So yes, they are high but they account for it differently and they have way more people in care facilities.


----------



## lenaitch

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Lenaitch
> 
> Why is this a bylaw thing though? Bylaw enforcement is just a cash grab by municipalities and has little to due with the law/justice/social order. It's obvious a lot of people are stressed more than usual which I find a little surprising considering how much time young people are on their phones, I would have thought they would have handled the social distancing well. Although perhaps it is not the young people that are having the greatest difficulty. It's interesting that my experiences seem to differ so much from others. I go into a store 99% of the customers are masked and maybe 65% of the staff.



It's a municipal by-law matter because the senior levels of government, notably provincial, have chosen to not make it an emergency order.  Setting aside your apparent disdain for by-laws (parking enforcement perhaps?), as the level of government that is closest to the residents, there are any number of by-laws that relate to 'social order', unleashed dogs pooping on your lawn, noise, building codes, etc.  To be sure, enforcement can be questionable, particularly in small areas, and they are often used as a source of revenue - mine in particular for building permits - but many still have a valuable role, one that would generally be inappropriate to saddle the police with.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brihard said:
			
		

> The four sizable countries they’re behind- Belgium, UK, Italy and Spain, got slammed early and hard. Italy and Spain were the first western nations to deal with a sizeable outbreak, with little prior knowledge to benefit from. Ultimately they got it under control by clamping down massively. Britain started off with a ‘let it burn through’ approach, which as we all know went poorly. I cannot speak for Belgium.
> 
> I would suggest that to be in the seven worst-off countries in the world by per capita deaths doesn’t suggest Sweden acquitted itself well at all. There are close to two hundred countries with lower per capital fatalities. Their early approach, like Britain’s, is a failure.



Common brother you're ignoring the point I've made.  The Swedish COVID strategy was always going to result in more deaths initially because it relied on freedom of choice vice enforcement.

As a result, after an initial much higher case load, people got behind voluntary social distancing measures.  The Country is at a better point then we are in terms of their R value and the rate of infectivity is dropping.  All of this without undertaking a massive state sponsored lockdown.  

This is why I believe that long term, the Swedish strategy of voluntary compliance will result in better outcomes.  We will reopen our economy and people who have been cooped up for months will come out, almost all will have no exposure to the virus and this will trigger another large outbreak.  

Spain is already experiencing this as are our neighbours to the South, who are also experiencing protests and civil disturbances.  

There are also many other negative effects of these lockdowns that aren't being taken in to consideration by anyone.  Drug overdose spikes, mass unemployment, crime and civil disobedience, increase in preventable deaths due to lack of available medical care, suicides, depression and anxiety in the general pop, etc.

All this to say, it's too soon to tell whether our strategy is better or not.  We shall see in about a years time and then lets come back to this and also look at other factors.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Alberta has most active COVID cases per capita, as some provinces see infections spike after reopening*
> 
> The number of people that currently have COVID-19 in Alberta is now roughly double that of Ontario on a per capita basis, following a spike in new cases after the province began reopening its economy in June.
> 
> The recent rise in infections in some provinces have highlighted concerns over the consequences of reopening too soon, but the notable increase in Alberta is also sparking worries the Western province could become the new hot spot for Canada.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/alberta-has-most-active-covid-cases-per-capita-as-some-provinces-see-infections-spike-after-reopening-1.5028824





> *Feds order supplies to give two doses of COVID-19 vaccine when it's ready*
> 
> The federal government is ordering more than 75 million syringes, alcohol swabs and bandages so it can inoculate Canadians as soon as a COVID-19 vaccine is ready.
> 
> Procurement Minister Anita Anand says Ottawa intends to stockpile enough vaccine supplies to give at least two doses to every Canadian whenever a vaccine is available.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-order-supplies-to-give-two-doses-of-covid-19-vaccine-when-it-s-ready-1.5029530
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7192426/coronavirus-vaccine-supplies/
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/feds-preparing-for-covid-vaccine-1.5654801


----------



## Brad Sallows

Sweden's advantage is voluntary cooperation, which is by definition self-adjusting.  Swedes can bear whatever restrictions they impose upon themselves for as long as they need to.

In BC we have some imposed restrictions, but fewer than in some other NA jurisdictions.  People will bear those restrictions for longer than they would a more restrictive set.  As a consequence, for relatively little political and social turmoil, the situation seems to be pretty good here.

The problem with overshooting restrictions is diminishing returns (little additional alleviation of the health problem, at greater economic and social cost), while diminishing the length of time for which the restrictions will be tolerated.

The only way to find the point of maximum benefit (or any local maximum if the "curve" jitters) on what is essentially analogous to a Laffer curve, is by experimentation.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Sweden's advantage is voluntary cooperation, which is by definition self-adjusting.  Swedes can bear whatever restrictions they impose upon themselves for as long as they need to.
> 
> In BC we have some imposed restrictions, but fewer than in some other NA jurisdictions.  People will bear those restrictions for longer than they would a more restrictive set.  As a consequence, for relatively little political and social turmoil, the situation seems to be pretty good here.
> 
> The problem with overshooting restrictions is diminishing returns (little additional alleviation of the health problem, at greater economic and social cost), while diminishing the length of time for which the restrictions will be tolerated.
> 
> The only way to find the point of maximum benefit (or any local maximum if the "curve" jitters) on what is essentially analogous to a Laffer curve, is by experimentation.



Voluntary by in is always the best outcome.  I'm in BC as well and have found the Government's approach here very refreshing.  Nobody is going overboard here or is acting hysterical either.


----------



## suffolkowner

lenaitch said:
			
		

> It's a municipal by-law matter because the senior levels of government, notably provincial, have chosen to not make it an emergency order.  Setting aside your apparent disdain for by-laws (parking enforcement perhaps?), as the level of government that is closest to the residents, there are any number of by-laws that relate to 'social order', unleashed dogs pooping on your lawn, noise, building codes, etc.  To be sure, enforcement can be questionable, particularly in small areas, and they are often used as a source of revenue - mine in particular for building permits - but many still have a valuable role, one that would generally be inappropriate to saddle the police with.



Thanks. That's what I figured was the reason, I'm not sure I've seen the reasoning before. As to by laws, yeah I've had issues but truthfully I just don't like being told what to do, lol


----------



## stellarpanther

Does anyone know if medical is still putting diabetic mbr's on T-Cat's due to COVID-19?  I know a couple months ago they were because I know someone who received one.  As I said before, it's a 1 year T-Cat that says "mbr not to be employed in an area where proper social distancing can not be maintained and must have the ability to wash hands frequently" or words to that effect.  I was talking to a friend earlier tonight and he knows a mbr in his unit is type 2 diabetic but that person doesn't have a chit/T-Cat.  Like Ottawa, my guess is at the larger bases, you need to approach them as they don't have the staff to keep tabs on everyone.


----------



## Remius

Test them all.  Isolate the positives.  Sanitize the facilities.  Move to the field.  Keep the course going. We are going to have to adapt to this new reality.


----------



## stellarpanther

Remius said:
			
		

> Test them all.  Isolate the positives.  Sanitize the facilities.  Move to the field.  Keep the course going. We are going to have to adapt to this new reality.



They should be doing a lot of the stuff you suggest but for some reason they aren't.  My son was surprised that they didn't have a questionnaire or anything related to COVID-19.  He thinks and I agree with the idea that everyone should have been tested on the first day of course..  Apparently training is getting done but people are worried and more and more are talking about RTUing including staff.  Apparently despite being told there would be plenty of space available, the base is saying they have lots of room and more and more courses are starting to show up.  One other thing my son mentioned is that although he doesn't smoke,  a lot of people are noticing  and commenting that people around the smoke pit are not distancing and obviously not wearing masks.  He's having second thoughts about going.  I certainly feel bad and will really feel bad if he gets it because he didn't want to go and I talked him into it.
I'm not saying training shouldn't happen but I don't think courses can be run like they were prior to COVID-19.


----------



## PuckChaser

Someone will eat it if someone tests positive.

Here's the thing: Is your son confined to base? Are the staff confined to base for the duration of the course? If not, then there's a chance someone could catch COVID-19 from one of the 4500 Canadians across the country that have currently tested positive. I'm willing to bet your son and his coursemates would be bitching and moaning if they were confined to barracks for the duration of the course and isolated from the general military population. Just wait till they all get shack hack and someone panics thinking its a COVID-19 outbreak.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

The deployment swerve this thread took is  right here.


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Someone will eat it if someone tests positive.
> 
> Here's the thing: Is your son confined to base? Are the staff confined to base for the duration of the course? If not, then there's a chance someone could catch COVID-19 from one of the 4500 Canadians across the country that have currently tested positive. I'm willing to bet your son and his coursemates would be bitching and moaning if they were confined to barracks for the duration of the course and isolated from the general military population. Just wait till they all get shack hack and someone panics thinking its a COVID-19 outbreak.



Trust me that circus is already happening here in wainwright. CB an entire month until all incoming members have been on ground 14 days. Messes are closed, gym is barely operating, and a single cough is cause for concern. Mind you if you go into isolation as a candidate, its an RTU.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Swedish island hires 'COVID knights' to help tourists maintain physical distancing*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> The Swedish island of Gotland, located in the Baltic Sea, has hired a group of armoured knights to patrol well-visited places in the region on horseback and ensure tourists adhere to physical distancing measures.
> 
> Gotland's government announced July 17 that the medieval re-enactment troupe from the Torneamentum Knights' Association would help remind visitors to do their part to minimize the risk of spreading the virus.
> 
> To drive home the point, the knights also carry signs with messages in medieval font such as "keep your distance," "stay at home if you have symptoms" and "wash your hands often."
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/swedish-island-hires-covid-knights-to-help-tourists-maintain-physical-distancing-1.5034444


----------



## daftandbarmy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Trust me that circus is already happening here in wainwright. CB an entire month until all incoming members have been on ground 14 days. Messes are closed, gym is barely operating, and a single cough is cause for concern. Mind you if you go into isolation as a candidate, its an RTU.



All the more reason to post everyone to the Rockies this year to spend their time getting 'Commando fit' at high altitude, a safe 'rope's length' apart!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Canada, U.S. tourist boats at Niagara Falls highlight difference in coronavirus battle


The tourist hotspot of Niagara Falls has gained a new photo-op for social distancing Canadian visitors on board ferries taking them into the mist of the falls: crowds of Americans.

Although cases of COVID-19 continue to rise across the United States, neighboring Canada has largely managed to contain the spread of the virus, helped by strict social distancing measures and mandatory masks in several jurisdictions.

At the famous waterfalls on the U.S.-Canadian border, Canadian ferries are limited to just six passengers per boat, out of a 700 person capacity. But on the U.S. side, the ferries are operating at 50 per cent capacity, according to Maid of the Mist boat tours.

“We actually took a picture of the (American) boat,” said Julie Pronovost, visiting from Quebec with her family on Tuesday. “I don’t find that it’s very safe to be on a boat like that. It’s much better here.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/7204228/niagara-falls-american-tourist-boat-coronavirus/


----------



## Jarnhamar

BC keepin it romantic  ;D

Try ‘glory holes’ for safer sex during coronavirus, B.C. CDC says
https://globalnews.ca/news/7204384/coronavirus-glory-holes-sex/?utm_source=%40globalnews&utm_medium=Twitter


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> BC keepin it romantic  ;D
> 
> Try ‘glory holes’ for safer sex during coronavirus, B.C. CDC says
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7204384/coronavirus-glory-holes-sex/?utm_source=%40globalnews&utm_medium=Twitter



George Michael would approve https://www.tribute.ca/news/george-michael-busted-in-another-washroom/2008/09/22/

But he's now passed https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2016/12/26/glory-holes-close-george/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. coronavirus cases pass 4 million as infections rapidly accelerate*
> 
> The total number of coronavirus cases reported in the United States passed 4 million on Thursday, reflecting a rapid acceleration of infections detected in the country since the first case was recorded on Jan. 21, a Reuters tally showed.
> 
> It took the country 98 days to reach 1 million cases, but just 16 days to go from 3 million to 4 million, according to the tally. The average number of new U.S. cases is now rising by more than 2,600 every hour, the highest rate in the world.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/u-s-coronavirus-cases-pass-4-million-as-infections-rapidly-accelerate-idUSKCN24O2C2





> *Forces buy new equipment to transport people with infectious diseases*
> 
> As the COVID-19 pandemic wages on, the Canadian military is in the process of procuring new equipment to boost their capacity to transport people with infectious diseases, including a specialized shipping container that can fit up to 12 patients, according to new documents tabled in the House of Commons this week.
> 
> According to the Department of National Defence, they are “procuring new and specialized health equipment that will improve our ability to provide medical support on operations, at home and abroad.”
> 
> Already there are Royal Canadian Air Force aircraft that are capable of transporting COVID-19 patients, though new equipment is coming to allow patient transport for those with a range of infectious diseases and to receive medical care while onboard, while protecting the air crew.
> 
> Specifically the new protective gear already ordered and on its way includes:
> 
> 
> - One “Aeromedical Bio-containment Evacuation System” (ABES), which the department describes as a reusable and specialized shipping container that can fit up to 12 infected patients to be put inside of the Hercules or Globemaster aircrafts;
> 
> - 15 “Aeromedical Single Isolation Bio-containment Units” (ABISU), which are reusable hard-shell containers that are essentially a smaller version of the shipping container to fit in smaller military aircraft and helicopters;
> 
> - 160 “Disposable Isolation Single Bio-containment Units” (DISBU), which are compact plastic chambers to isolate single patients with mild symptoms; and
> 
> - 50 Griffon helicopter COVID-19 barriers to separate pilots from the passengers onboard Griffon aircraft, “to serve as a complement to other protective measures,” the department says.
> 
> “This equipment will ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces have the ability to safely support efforts in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as all medical evacuations of highly infectious patients now and into the future,” said the department in the documents.
> 
> The plans to procure the new medical and protective equipment was released in response to an inquiry from Conservative defence critic James Bezan, who also received a response indicating a lag time in early 2020 between when the Canadian Forces Intelligence Command briefed Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan about the novel coronavirus and when the federal government formally convened a COVID-19 Incident Response Group.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/forces-buy-new-equipment-to-transport-people-with-infectious-diseases-1.5036260


----------



## CBH99

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> BC keepin it romantic  ;D
> 
> Try ‘glory holes’ for safer sex during coronavirus, B.C. CDC says
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7204384/coronavirus-glory-holes-sex/?utm_source=%40globalnews&utm_medium=Twitter




No kissing or saliva exchange.  Glory holes encouraged.  And please wear masks   ;D 

I couldn't think of a sexier situation if I tried.  Thank You BC, for really broadening my horizons!   :nod:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Released in the Lancet yesterday:



> *A country level analysis measuring the impact of government actions, country preparedness and socioeconomic factors on COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes*
> 
> A country level exploratory analysis was conducted to assess the impact of timing and type of national health policy/actions undertaken towards COVID-19 mortality and related health outcomes.



https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext

The findings:

Increasing COVID-19 caseloads were associated with:

1. Countries with higher obesity
2. Median population age; and 
3. Longer time to border closures from the first reported case 

Increased mortality per million was significantly associated with:

1. Higher obesity prevalence; and 
2. Per capita gross domestic product (GDP) 

Things that were found to reduce mortality:

1.  Reduced income dispersion reduced mortality and the number of critical cases 
2.  Higher levels of Tobacco use (surprisingly and they aren't sure why)
3.  Higher amount of nurses per-capita

Things that were not associated with mortality per million people:

1. Rapid border closures
2. Full lockdowns; and 
3. Wide-spread testing. 

However, full lockdowns and reduced country vulnerability to biological threats (i.e. high scores on the global health security scale for risk environment) were significantly associated with increased patient recovery rates.

Basically, if your Country has a high level of physically unfit and overweight individuals and you wait too long to close your borders from the time you receive the first case, you'll fare worse.

Interestingly, the study found lockdowns and other measures implemented had no effect on actual mortality.  They did increase the number of people that were able to recover from the disease though, which supports their use as a tool to ensure the healthcare system isn't overwhelmed. 

It also tells me that fitness is as important as anything else when dealing with this disease and this would be a good time to re-emphasize the importance of fitness and healthy lifestyle choices.  

I tried to have this discussion with someone yesterday though and they got mad at me and said I was "fat shaming"  :facepalm:


----------



## Blackadder1916

U.S military personnel in St. John's accused of not isolating, as confusion swirls around exemption rules

American military members told hotel staff they were given OK to go out by Canada Border Services Agency

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/american-military-self-isolating-nl-1.5665789


> CBC News · Posted: Jul 28, 2020 2:13 PM NT | Last Updated: 2 hours ago
> 
> The manager of a St. John's hotel says American military members have been leaving the hotel and telling staff they were given the OK to do so by the Canada Border Services Agency.
> 
> Delta Hotel general manager Heather McKinnon said American service members have been leaving the premises, which is causing concerns about COVID-19 in the community as confusion grows over whether federal or provincial rules and exemptions should apply.
> 
> People took to social media Monday night to say they had spotted the American members, who they said were not self-isolating. St. John's police said they had received a report about the Americans on Monday night; however, officers weren't able to locate them.
> 
> McKinnon said that while the members were allowed to be together as a group, it had come to the staff's attention that they were leaving the hotel. She said the members told Delta staff that the CBSA had told them they are allowed to be out in public while in the country.
> 
> That runs contrary to provincial rules on visitors from outside of Atlantic Canada. Even people travelling to Newfoundland and Labrador for essential work are required to isolate when they are not working.
> 
> In an email, a CBSA spokesperson said an individual may be exempt from mandatory quarantine requirements, if they meet an exception in the regulations for visiting forces.
> 
> CBC News asked American military personnel walking into the Delta on Tuesday for interviews, but they repeatedly replied "no comment."
> 
> Health Minister John Haggie said he'd heard stories about American military members being in a downtown restaurant Monday night, and that his department is looking into it.
> 
> He said officials have been made "perfectly clearly aware" that when American military personnel arrive, they are to be instructed to go directly to the hotel. Once there, they are to "take room service and reverse the process the following morning," Haggie said.
> 
> "My understanding is: They go, they isolate and if they stay for more than 14 days in isolation, then they are free to move around."
> 
> He said the situation is an issue of federal versus provincial jurisdictions and which sets of rules and exemptions should apply.
> 
> The American service members would fall under the federal Quarantine Act, Haggie said, noting that he isn't aware of any exemptions that would allow them to visit restaurants while in town on a stopover.
> 
> "My view is whatever the more stringent measures are, be it the federal Quarantine Act or the provincial one, whichever is the strictest should apply."
> 
> American military members make up a significant portion of Delta's business, according to McKinnon, who said they account for about six per cent of total stays and bring in around $1.8 million in annual revenue.
> 
> While inside the hotel, all guests are required to wear face coverings in public areas. McKinnon said there haven't been any issues with the Americans on those rules.


----------



## stellarpanther

Russia has announced they will have a vaccine registered for use in approx 2 weeks from now and will begin mass producing it in Sept.  I would be hesitant about getting this vaccine regardless of what country produces it.  Way too fast with not enough time for testing and to see what side effects occur later.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7229199/coronavirus-vaccine-russia/

edited to provide link.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *U.S. coronavirus deaths top 150,000, among highest in deaths per capita globally*
> 
> U.S. deaths from the novel coronavirus surpassed 150,000 on Wednesday, a number higher than in any other country and nearly a quarter of the world’s total, according to a Reuters tally.
> 
> Of the 20 countries with the biggest outbreaks, the United States ranks sixth in deaths per capita, at 4.5 fatalities per 10,000 people.
> 
> Only the United Kingdom, Spain, Italy, Peru and Chile have a higher per capita rate, the tally shows, with U.S. deaths making up nearly 23% of the global total of 660,997.
> 
> The increase of 10,000 deaths in 11 days is the fastest in the United States since early June.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa/u-s-coronavirus-deaths-top-150000-among-highest-in-deaths-per-capita-globally-idUSKCN24U2HX


----------



## QV

Clearly Trump's fault.


----------



## SupersonicMax

QV said:
			
		

> Clearly Trump's fault.



In this case, this is probably true.  His management of the pandemic is not exactly good and could be characterized as terrible.


----------



## QV

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> In this case, this is probably true.  His management of the pandemic is not exactly good and could be characterized as terrible.



POTUS is not a medical expert and relies on all the top officials for advice at the federal level.  Some things he did do was institute border closures earlier than most other countries and directed the feds provide PPE and resources to states requesting it (ventilators, hospital ships).  Do you recall he was called a racist for closing borders?  Most of the handling of the COVID crisis was at the state level.  So much of the problems with the situation in the US would be correctly placed with people like Fauci for making mistakes in recommendations (plenty of articles on this) or the state governors, like Cuomo in NY, who directed the responses in their jurisdiction.


----------



## BDTyre

Sounds like some in the US tried to sound the alarm as early as the beginning of the year:
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/coronavirus-threatened-invasion-red-dawn-team-save-america/story?id=72000727


----------



## QV

Canada had an early opportunity to get a grip as well. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coronavirus-pandemic-covid-canadian-military-intelligence-wuhan-1.5528381


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Mr. Trump had about as much power over the handling of the pandemic as Mr. Trudeau did.....pretty much zero, except hand out some money.  The fact that our Premiers have done a much better job then most of their Governors, is what I would say is the difference between our 2 Countries.   That and maybe we won't actively resist only because "our party" isn't currently the sitting person at whatever level.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>In this case, this is probably true.

Alas, no.  The federal government doesn't hold all the authority to do things in the US.  If, say, a state governor decided that people released from hospital would be sent to long-term care facilities and a lot of vulnerable people were infected and died, that was not a federal decision.

People can argue over how effective decentralized authority is for dealing with pandemics, but there's no credible argument that supports laying all the blame for bad things in one place (and all the credit for good things elsewhere).


----------



## stellarpanther

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Russia has announced they will have a vaccine registered for use in approx 2 weeks from now and will begin mass producing it in Sept.  I would be hesitant about getting this vaccine regardless of what country produces it.  Way too fast with not enough time for testing and to see what side effects occur later.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7229199/coronavirus-vaccine-russia/
> 
> edited to provide link.



Considering this post never received any comments I take it people either don't believe what the Russians say or are not interested in a vaccine.  That said, all countries are rushing a vaccine.  I'm curious how many people believe this is the hill to die on or will willingly accept it if they force it on the CAF?  Outside the CAF, I know a couple people in healthcare who have said they won't take any vaccine until it's been around for a while and the risk of side effects are more understood.  I can't say for sure until I given the dilemma but if they called me tomorrow and said we discovered a vaccine and you need to get it, I might refuse and let them do whatever they do.  Before someone says, they could charge you and/or release you, would you prefer that or your life?


----------



## Brad Sallows

Cross the bridge if you come to it, and let others worry about their own decisions.  Surely you don't enjoy creating unnecessary anxiety for yourself?

I read today (or maybe yesterday) that a handful of research lines expect to have vaccines in testing anywhere from early fall to early winter (say, early Oct through to Dec).  That surprises me; I doubted any vaccines would be in testing before early next year.  I am pleased to be wrong.  However, as has been pointed out by those who develop vaccines, vaccination won't be limited to a few thousand people in an outbreak locality to achieve containment.  So, yes, the risks of side effects and death have to be sufficiently low that the cure is not worse than the disease.  The "experts" have been both honest and correct in explaining all along that it would take time to test.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Considering this post never received any comments I take it people either don't believe what the Russians say or are not interested in a vaccine.  That said, all countries are rushing a vaccine.  I'm curious how many people believe this is the hill to die on or will willingly accept it if they force it on the CAF?  Outside the CAF, I know a couple people in healthcare who have said they won't take any vaccine until it's been around for a while and the risk of side effects are more understood.  I can't say for sure until I given the dilemma but if they called me tomorrow and said we discovered a vaccine and you need to get it, I might refuse and let them do whatever they do.  Before someone says, they could charge you and/or release you, would you prefer that or your life?



Christ
Just wrap yourself in bubble wrap or something. We get your risk averse. No one is going to pin you down and start shoving covid vaccine needles in your arm against your will or send you to club ed for refusing. 
Is that something you're seriously worried about?


----------



## daftandbarmy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Before someone says, they could charge you and/or release you, would you prefer that or your life?



Given that this isn't the Black Plague of the Middle Ages, and we have a moderately successful health care system and leaders who are not _completely _insane, I'm guessing that there are more than two choices in this case. So I'm going with the shot...

In the meantime we'll practise fixing bayonets and attacking machine guns like, you know, we're supposed to do before breakfast every day.


----------



## stellarpanther

Looking at my post again, it did make it sound like I have a lot of anxiety regarding get this vaccine but I'm not really thinking about it that much.  Shortly before posting I was on the phone with a friend and he mentioned the CAF might decide to force people to get this like they did a previous vaccine.  I believe it was anthrax in the 90's.  We were both questioning if we would get it and he mentioned he heard a few people say they would refuse.  I decided to post on here about it because I was curious what others thought about getting it once available.


----------



## dangerboy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Shortly before posting I was on the phone with a friend and he mentioned the CAF might decide to force people to get this like they did a previous vaccine.  I believe it was anthrax in the 90's.  We were both questioning if we would get it and he mentioned he heard a few people say they would refuse.  I decided to post on here about it because I was curious what others thought about getting it once available.



Which vaccine did the CAF force you to get? The last one I remember (can't remember the name of the vaccine) was about ten years ago (maybe more) and we had to listen to a briefing but the decision to get the shot was ours.


----------



## BDTyre

The only time I recall being "forced" to get a vaccine was when I wanted to deploy but they were nothing out of the ordinary, just the sort of thing your doctor would recommend were you willingly travelling to certain parts of the world.

The other option was to not DAG green.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=stellarpanther]We were both questioning if we would get it and he mentioned he heard a few people say they would refuse.  I decided to post on here about it because I was curious what others thought about getting it once available.
[/quote]
Fair enough but this is the second time you've brought up the issue about forced vaccines and how you will refuse. The first time was at the beginning of the pandemic.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Texas surpasses New York in number of coronavirus cases*
> 
> Coronavirus cases in Texas have risen to more than 418,00, putting the state at a higher case count than New York.
> 
> Once the U.S. epicenter of the pandemic, New York now ranks fourth in total case count behind California, Florida and Texas, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.
> 
> Medical teams on the frontlines in Texas said that spikes in the state have taken a toll.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/texas-surpasses-new-york-in-number-of-coronavirus-cases-1.5045096


----------



## stellarpanther

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Which vaccine did the CAF force you to get? The last one I remember (can't remember the name of the vaccine) was about ten years ago (maybe more) and we had to listen to a briefing but the decision to get the shot was ours.



Dangerboy... Are you thinking of the H1N1?  From what read on here.  I think some CO's directed their mbr's to get it, others strongly encouragedit (which, I always take as a choice) and some told their mbr's it was up to them.  Either way I recall the nurses who came to NDHQ telling people it was the mbr's choice regardless of what they had been told.


----------



## Brash

QV said:
			
		

> POTUS is not a medical expert and reliesshould rely on all the top officials for advice at the federal level.


Corrected your statement.

“I don’t know why, I think they’re very respected doctors. There was a woman who was spectacular in her statements about it and she’s had tremendous success with it.”
- Donald Trump, 28 July 2020, when speaking about one of his experts, Dr. Stella Immanuel. 

Dr. Immanuel has made previous claims "that many gynecological issues, such as endometriosis, infertility, miscarriages and sexually transmitted infections, are the result of having sex with witches and demons in dreams", that "that DNA from space aliens is used in modern medicine", and "without evidence, that a vaccine for the disease [COVID-19] has been found and proven and has been available for months".

Trump has yet to issue any praise or deferral to Dr Fauci, who has been recognized almost universally in the medical profession for his contributions.



			
				QV said:
			
		

> Some things he did do was institute border closures earlier than most other countries and directed the feds provide PPE and resources to states requesting it (ventilators, hospital ships).


Wrong, a-la "the notion of the federal stockpile was it's supposed to be our stockpile; it's not supposed to be state stockpiles that they then use."
- Jared Kushner, 2 Apr 2020, while giving a Task Force Briefing. Whitehouse source - (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-briefing-17/)



			
				QV said:
			
		

> Do you recall he was called a racist for closing borders?


This is a strawman argument. Ad hominem attacks against political leaders are thrown around for almost every decision they make.

I also fail to understand the correlation of your argument here. Is it:
...that racists make better informed decisions? 
...that Trump isn't a racist?



			
				QV said:
			
		

> Most of the handling of the COVID crisis was at the state level.


That isn't surprising, given:

"I don't take responsibility at all."
- Donald Trump, 13 Mar 2020, when pressed during a press conference on his administration's response to the COVID-19 crisis; specifically for the US' lack of testing. 

and, 

The Global Health Security and Biodefense unit, the unit responsible for pandemic preparedness. Was established in 2015 by Barack Obama’s National Security Advisor, Susan Rice.
It was largely disbanded in 2018 by the Trump Administration.

and,

The Trump Administration failed to follow ANY part of a 69-page Pandemic Response plan, developed by The President' Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST) response to a mandate given them by President Obama in 2009. Specifically, "What does the president need to do to prepare for an influenza pandemic?"
(https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285)



			
				QV said:
			
		

> So much of the problems with the situation in the US would be correctly placed with people like Fauci...


Correctly place the blame on Fauci? According to what reputable non-partisan sources, exactly?
Sciences (and scientists like Fauci) are by their nature easy targets. After all, what other fields are constantly seeking to disprove their own hypotheses?
Uneducated people conflate this state of constant change driven by self-critisism with "being wrong", when it should correctly be interpreted as betterment of understanding.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Fair enough but this is the second time you've brought up the issue about forced vaccines and how you will refuse. The first time was at the beginning of the pandemic.



I'm only curious about other people's opinions and trying to make conversation on a topic I'm interested in.  I'm normally pro-vaccinations, one of the first in line for the flu shot etc and keep everything up to date etc.


----------



## dangerboy

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Dangerboy... Are you thinking of the H1N1?  From what read on here.  I think some CO's directed their mbr's to get it, others strongly encouragedit (which, I always take as a choice) and some told their mbr's it was up to them.  Either way I recall the nurses who came to NDHQ telling people it was the mbr's choice regardless of what they had been told.



That is the one, could not remember the name. It was all up to the member to decide if they wanted the vaccine. Which vaccine were you thinking of that the CAF forced its members to take?


----------



## stellarpanther

dangerboy said:
			
		

> That is the one, could not remember the name. It was all up to the member to decide if they wanted the vaccine. Which vaccine were you thinking of that the CAF forced its members to take?



The one I'm thinking about was Anthrax back in the 90's.  I believe at least one person was charged for refusing it although I think the charge was ultimately stayed.  I don't think the legality of CAF being able to force mbr's to get vaccinations has been tested in court.  I could be wrong on that though.


----------



## BDTyre

dangerboy said:
			
		

> That is the one, could not remember the name. It was all up to the member to decide if they wanted the vaccine. Which vaccine were you thinking of that the CAF forced its members to take?



I don't remember being offered the H1N1 vaccine. Needless to say, I'm fairly certain I ended up catching H1N1 and it was one of the worst flu's I've had.


----------



## stellarpanther

Here is a link to a CBC article.  The CAF continues to say it is a offence under the NDA to refuse a vaccine without a lawful excuse.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/forces-drop-case-against-anthrax-vaccine-refuser-1.335629

My personal opinion and gut feeling is that a lot of people will refuse this vaccine, certainly when it first comes out.


----------



## OldSolduer

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The one I'm thinking about was Anthrax back in the 90's.  I believe at least one person was charged for refusing it although I think the charge was ultimately stayed.  I don't think the legality of CAF being able to force mbr's to get vaccinations has been tested in court.  I could be wrong on that though.


That Sgt underwent a court martial. I think he was found not guilty but I could be wrong. 

I think - I am not a lawyer - that any Canadian can refuse medical treatment if they are of sound mind. Lawyers in 3...2...1....


----------



## Blackadder1916

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> That Sgt underwent a court martial. I think he was found not guilty but I could be wrong.
> 
> I think - I am not a lawyer - that any Canadian can refuse medical treatment if they are of sound mind. Lawyers in 3...2...1....



Yes and no.  The charges were stayed by the military judge in the original CM, which was overturned by the CMAC on appeal, then the charges were dropped.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/forces-drop-case-against-anthrax-vaccine-refuser-1.335629


> Forces drop case against anthrax vaccine refuser
> 
> CBC News · Posted: Apr 11, 2002 8:49 PM ET | Last Updated: April 11, 2002
> 
> The Canadian Forces have dropped the legal case against a retired air force sergeant who refused to take a vaccine against anthrax.
> 
> However, the military said the decision does not undermine its authority to give orders to troops. And Mike Kipling, while pleased the four-year fight is over, is not sure sure it was worthwhile.
> 
> "What's it going to be for the next chap who refuses a vaccine? I don't know."
> 
> A statement from the military said: "It continues to be an offence under the National Defence Act for persons subject to the Code of Service Discipline to refuse to accept a vaccination without lawful excuse."
> 
> Commanders will continue to order mandatory vaccinations "where operational circumstances require."
> 
> The Forces concluded it was no longer in the public interest to continue Kipling's court martial. He refused to take the vaccine while serving in Kuwait in March, 1998.
> 
> He was worried about its safety and, in a Web posting, said there was "absolutely no proof it would even work."
> 
> Kipling initially won when the military began a legal action against him, but lost in January when the Court Martial Appeal Court overturned his earlier acquittal.
> 
> Now the military has decided not to pursue the case.



The CMAC decision  https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/cmac/doc/2002/2002cmac1/2002cmac1.html?resultIndex=16


----------



## Kat Stevens

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The one I'm thinking about was Anthrax back in the 90's.  I believe at least one person was charged for refusing it although I think the charge was ultimately stayed.  I don't think the legality of CAF being able to force mbr's to get vaccinations has been tested in court.  I could be wrong on that though.



I don't recall getting a mandatory anthrax immunization. I would have gladly got it, that shit is next order nasty.


----------



## stellarpanther

Target Up said:
			
		

> I don't recall getting a mandatory anthrax immunization. I would have gladly got it, that crap is next order nasty.



It might have only been ordered for people deployed to the Persian Gulf area?


----------



## stellarpanther

After hearing earlier today that the instructors in Meaford get to go home for the long weekend but the students can't, I was thinking to myself that is stupid that the instructors are allowed to leave.  They had everyone isolated and all should be good as far as COVID is concerned.  Instead the conversation got better.  A bunch of the students from various courses are planning on going to Wasaga Beach on Saturday.


----------



## Kilted

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> After hearing earlier today that the instructors in Meaford get to go home for the long weekend but the students can't, I was thinking to myself that is stupid that the instructors are allowed to leave.  They had everyone isolated and all should be good as far as COVID is concerned.  Instead the conversation got better.  A bunch of the students from various courses are planning on going to Wasaga Beach on Saturday.



What are your sources for this?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Don't travel while I fly around. 
Seems about right. 

* Health Minister Patty Hajdu's multiple flights home during COVID-19 pandemic cost $73,000* 


> It cost taxpayers just over $73,000 for Health Minister Patty Hajdu to travel from Ottawa to Thunder Bay, even as she advised against non-essential travel during the pandemic lockdown.


https://nationalpost.com/news/national/hajdus-repeated-flights-home-during-pandemic-cost-73gs/wcm/63ea5876-4126-4365-ad45-8fd9e25b2f57/


----------



## stellarpanther

Kilted said:
			
		

> What are your sources for this?



I'd rather not comment but it's legit.


----------



## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> That Sgt underwent a court martial. I think he was found not guilty but I could be wrong.
> 
> I think - I am not a lawyer - that any Canadian can refuse medical treatment if they are of sound mind. Lawyers in 3...2...1....



This came up earlier in this thread. BLUF, the court didn’t actually rule on the legality of the order or of that section of the NDA, and acknowledged that it would have broad implications beyond CAF.  CAF walked away from continuing the prosecution. So at present the section of the NDA about vaccines stands, *but* it also has not been upheld in the face of a legal challenge.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'd rather not comment but it's legit.



Do you want to know who it sounds like is feeding this info to you form Meaford?


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Do you want to know who it sounds like is feeding this info to you form Meaford?



Yes, who?


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'll PM you.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ouch...

46% Moderate to Significant impact on business planning….

Survey Reveals Manufacturers’ Post-Pandemic Plans

Supply chain managers are recalibrating a moving target like never before.

Few implications of the COVID-19 pandemic are as consequential to global manufacturers as disruptions to their supply chains. For many, this is the most consequential by far. Supply chains are always a work in progress as such market variables as transportation costs, tariffs and trade agreements force logistics managers to tweak their supply chains a little here, a lot over there and everywhere in between. That’s under normal conditions. Add a global health pandemic originating in the world’s second largest economy and the largest in industrial output, and it’s a whole new ballgame.

Even as Western and other companies resume operations in China, most are still reeling from the human resources, cash flow, market demand and other challenges precipitated by the pandemic. In short, they are reassessing their risk management strategies on a scale most have not had to do since the global supply chain disruptions caused by the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami.

Who’s doing what in this rescue-and-recovery phase of the global pandemic? A good place to start is analysis of a recent survey of more than 150 Western companies with manufacturing and sourcing operations in China conducted by East West Associates (EWA), a consultancy specializing in risk management, manufacturing footprint and supply chain optimization and strategic business planning, among other areas. The firm has offices in the U.S. and Asia and focuses mainly on China, Southeast Asia, Mexico, the Czech Republic and Poland.

Following are the survey questions and results, followed by analysis of the findings with three of EWA’s principals.
What have been the biggest challenges of resuming operations in China, following the coronavirus lockdown? (Choose up to 3)
•	64% Supply Chain Disruption
•	63% Decreased Product Demand from Customers
•	62% Logistics Disruption
•	52% Manufacturing Disruption
•	14% Cash / Liquidity to Maintain Operations
•	9% Not All Employees / On-Site Senior Executives Have Returned to China-Based Operations

What actions has your company taken to mitigate the challenges of resuming operations in China, following the coronavirus lockdown? (Multiple Responses Possible)
•	56% Identify & qualify alternative vendors / Purchase finished components and goods from alternative manufacturers / Identify & qualify contract manufacturers / Shift components and raw materials from other company facilities
•	46% Identify & qualify alternative logistic partners / Establish expedited freight agreements / Renegotiate warehousing and consignment agreements
•	24% Pricing discounts / Renegotiate customer agreements / Sales incentives for customers
•	22% Shift production to other company plants /Decrease factory production / Factory consolidation / Discontinue product lines
•	15% Alternative payment strategies (pre-payment, extended payment terms, renegotiated vendor terms, etc.)
•	14% Other
•	7% Market research of growth potential (new markets, adjacent verticals, etc.)
•	5% Hire new or temporary employees / Hire interim executives / Transfer executives from other sites / Employee and leadership training

What impact have these actions had on mitigating the challenges of resuming operations for your company?
•	46% Partial improvement
•	34% Significant improvement
•	17% Too early to tell
•	3% No improvement

What impact has the coronavirus had on your company business planning?
•	9% No impact: Focus on dealing with the present situation in China
•	6% No Impact: Too early to begin with long-term business planning
•	39% Moderate to Significant impact: Increased focus on performance improvement and process optimization of China-based operations due to product consumption being primarily in China. Although no confirmed strategies could be identified due in part to the current market volatility, there were clear indications:
o	Digitalization (automation, Industry 4.0) will likely be the key driver of change for manufacturing, supply chains and logistics.
o	Company restructuring, factory consolidation and M&A will likely also play significant roles in driving change.
•	46% Moderate to Significant impact: Increased focus on global relocation of China-based operations to diversify risk and reduce dependency on China. When asked what part of their China operations they are planning/considering to relocate out of China, the respondents indicated the following breakdown:
o	50% sourcing operations
o	45% manufacturing & sourcing operations
o	5% manufacturing operations

To where are you considering or planning to relocate your China-based operations, as a direct result of the coronavirus? (Multiple Responses Possible)

•	74% Asia
•	53% Mexico
•	37% USA
•	21% Other
•	11% Central Eastern Europe

In addition to the coronavirus, how would you rank the negative impact of the following factors upon your business? (5 = greatest impact, 1= least impact)
•	27% US/China tariffs
•	19% Strong domestic Chinese competition
•	18% Increased Chinese labor rates
•	18% Slowing China economy
•	18% Transparency, IP loss, etc. in China


For companies whose end market is China, their vendor and manufacturing base in China may have closed, so they are identifying and qualifying alternative vendors who could provide products more quickly than their current vendors. Additionally, the economic conditions in China have exposed some Chinese vendors with poor financial backing, forcing their customers to qualify alternatives.

https://siteselection.com/issues/2020/jul/covid-19-special-report-supply-chain-disruption.cfm#gsc.tab=0


----------



## MilEME09

Brihard said:
			
		

> This came up earlier in this thread. BLUF, the court didn’t actually rule on the legality of the order or of that section of the NDA, and acknowledged that it would have broad implications beyond CAF.  CAF walked away from continuing the prosecution. So at present the section of the NDA about vaccines stands, *but* it also has not been upheld in the face of a legal challenge.



I'm not a lawyer but I think an argument towards universality of service can be made regarding a vaccine. By refusing say in this case the Anthrax vaccine, you are not employable in anywhere with a NBC threat.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Our neighbours are about to hit a new milestone; they just hit 4 million less than 2 weeks ago:



> *'Too many are selfish': U.S. nears 5 million virus cases*
> 
> Fourth of July gatherings, graduation parties, no-mask weddings, crowded bars -- there are reasons the U.S. has racked up more than 155,000 coronavirus deaths, by far the most of any country, and is fast approaching an off-the-charts 5 million confirmed infections, easily the highest in the world.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/too-many-are-selfish-u-s-nears-5-million-virus-cases-1.5050601
> 
> https://apnews.com/24e2247bb296d6381dc14c0cc1d27d96


----------



## OldSolduer

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I'm not a lawyer but I think an argument towards universality of service can be made regarding a vaccine. By refusing say in this case the Anthrax vaccine, you are not employable in anywhere with a NBC threat.



Ergo you are breaching the Universality of Service. 

I wonder what the ruling would be if it went to the Supreme Court?

We broached this subject the other day and a SIL said that you cannot be forced in any way, shape or form if you don't get vaccinated. 
I am not so sure about that.


----------



## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Ergo you are breaching the Universality of Service.
> 
> I wonder what the ruling would be if it went to the Supreme Court?
> 
> We broached this subject the other day and a SIL said that you cannot be forced in any way, shape or form if you don't get vaccinated.
> I am not so sure about that.



There’s likely a difference between how the courts would view charges for an offense under CSD, versus a judicial review of an administrative decision to release someone because they aren’t deployable due to refusing a vaccine.


----------



## stellarpanther

Brihard said:
			
		

> There’s likely a difference between how the courts would view charges for an offense under CSD, versus a judicial review of an administrative decision to release someone because they aren’t deployable due to refusing a vaccine.



I'm having trouble wording this the way I want to so hopefully my point is understood but, if a court ruled that mbr's can't be forced to get a vaccination against their will, I can't the CAF being able to release someone because they exercise their right not to get a vaccine.


----------



## stellarpanther

I should have asked more questions last year regarding whether vaccines are still mandatory but approx a year ago during a Part 1, I was told I needed a booster for MMR.  When I questioned it as I thought I had everything, I was told it's your choice, you don't have to and no one is going to force you to but you really should get it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I should have asked more questions last year regarding whether vaccines are still mandatory but approx a year ago during a Part 1, I was told I needed a booster for MMR.  When I questioned it as I thought I had everything, I was told it's your choice, you don't have to and no one is going to force you to but you really should get it.



If someone refuses the Covid19 vaccine the CAF will just slip it into their food; mission before self and such.


----------



## CBH99

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm having trouble wording this the way I want to so hopefully my point is understood but, if a court ruled that mbr's can't be forced to get a vaccination against their will, I can't the CAF being able to release someone because they exercise their right not to get a vaccine.




Your point came across clear, don't worry   

We are speculating on potential legal nonsense down the road -- which is good, because it will inevitably come up for various members.


I COULD see the CAF releasing someone due to their refusal to get a COVID vaccine, even if the courts rule that vaccinations are voluntary.

While it's obviously everybody's choice as to whether they get a vaccine for something, I could see the CAF releasing a member as deploying them or even having them attend work could be viewed as an unacceptable risk.


Civilians?  Don't want to get one?  All good.  You do you.

Military?  Don't want to get one?  Your battlegroup, or unit, might be viewed as undeployable due to the risk of becoming sick, and spreading it throughout whoever else is on the deployment.  Now, a majority of the members on that deployment may have to isolate, or worst case get really sick.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Civilians?  Don't want to get one?  All good.



Sure about that?



> Paramedics face dismissal for refusing flu shots
> https://www.cmaj.ca/content/166/6/796.1


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sure about that?




Sorry, I meant civilians who aren't uniformed and public service / emergency services

(I'm referring to Joe Schmoe)


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Long, but good read. Currently floating around FB.

We’re of the mind that our 10yo will go back to school. But we also live in an area where numbers have been relatively low compared to similar municipalities. As well, 10yo’s school is so small that physical distancing within each classroom/gr level is entirely possible. For others? Many aren’t as fortunate.

This is obviously American, and their experience in general is far different from ours. But most of this is wholly applicable to our own circumstances, and worthy of consideration on several points.

As it stands at the moment, Ontario has maintained they will not support minimizing class sizes. There are several teachers (mainly younger pupils) who are anxious about what September is going to bring. 



> For anyone trying to make the decision between physical or virtual school for themselves or their children:
> 
> Best argument for virtual school I have read, written by a dad. It's long.....but dang, it made me think a LOT.  He takes every argument and recontextualizes it with appropriate analogies. The last four paragraphs are the chilling clincher.  Thanks for sharing, Karen Lulich Horwath.  Every school district in the world is having these discussions RIGHT NOW - or they should be......
> 
> Written by a dad in Fairfax county read.
> From Joe Morice, daughters in 8th & 10th grade in our Centreville Pyramid:
> 
> To our fellow FCPS families, this is it gang, 5 days until the 2 days in school vs. 100% virtual decision. Let’s talk it out, in my traditional mammoth TL/DR form.
> 
> Like all of you, I’ve seen my feed become a flood of anxiety and faux expertise. You’ll get no presumption of expertise here. This is how I am looking at and considering this issue and the positions people have taken in my feed and in the hundred or so FCPS discussion groups that have popped up. The lead comments in quotes are taken directly from my feed and those boards. Sometimes I try to rationalize them. Sometimes I’m just punching back at the void.
> 
> Full disclosure, we initially chose the 2 days option and are now having serious reservations. As I consider the positions and arguments I see in my feed, these are where my mind goes. Of note, when I started working on this piece at 12:19 PM today the COVID death tally in the United States stood at 133,420.
> 
> *****“My kids want to go back to school.”*****
> I challenge that position. I believe what the kids desire is more abstract. I believe what they want is a return to normalcy. They want their idea of yesterday. And yesterday isn’t on the menu.
> 
> *****“I want my child in school so they can socialize.”*****
> This was the principle reason for our 2 days decision. As I think more on it though, what do we think ‘social’ will look like? There aren’t going to be any lunch table groups, any lockers, any recess games, any study halls, any sitting next to friends, any talking to people in the hallway, any dances. All of that is off the menu. So, when we say that we want the kids to benefit from the social experience, what are we deluding ourselves into thinking in-building socialization will actually look like in the Fall?
> 
> *****“My kid is going to be left behind.”*****
> 
> Left behind who? The entire country is grappling with the same issue, leaving all children in the same quagmire. Who exactly would they be behind? I believe the rhetorical answer to that is “They’ll be behind where they should be,” to which I’ll counter that “where they should be” is a fictional goal post that we as a society have taken as gospel because it maps to standardized tests which are used to grade schools and counties as they chase funding.
> 
> *****“Classrooms are safe.”*****
> 
> At the current distancing guidelines from FCPS middle and high schools would have no more than 12 people (teachers + students) in a classroom (I acknowledge this number may change as FCPS considers the Commonwealth’s 3 ft with a mask vs. 6 ft position, noting that FCPS is all mask regardless of the distance). For the purpose of this discussion we’ll say classes run 45 minutes.
> 
> I posed the following question to 40 people today, representing professional and management roles in corporations, government agencies, and military commands: “Would your company or command have a 12 person, 45 minute meeting in a conference room?”
> 
> 100% of them said no, they would not. These are some of their answers:
> 
> “No. Until further notice we are on Zoom.”
> “(Our company) doesn’t allow us in (company space).”
> “Oh hell no.”
> “No absolutely not.”
> “Is there a percentage lower than zero?”
> “Something of that size would be virtual.”
> 
> We do not even consider putting our office employees into the same situation we are contemplating putting our children into. And let’s drive this point home: there are instances here when commanding officers will not put soldiers, ACTUAL SOLDIERS, into the kind of indoor environment we’re contemplating for our children. For me this is as close to a ‘kill shot’ argument as there is in this entire debate. How do we work from home because buildings with recycled air are not safe, because we don’t trust other people to not spread the virus, and then with the same breath send our children into buildings?
> 
> *****“Children only die .0016 of the time.”*****
> 
> First, conceding we’re an increasingly morally bankrupt society, but when did we start talking about children’s lives, or anyone’s lives, like this? This how the villain in movies talks about mortality, usually 10-15 minutes before the good guy kills him.
> 
> If you’re in this camp, and I acknowledge that many, many people are, I’m asking you to consider that number from a slightly different angle.
> 
> FCPS has 189,000 children. .0016 of that is 302. 302 dead children are the Calvary Hill you’re erecting your argument on. So, let’s agree to do this: stop presenting this as a data point. If this is your argument, I challenge you to have courage equal to your conviction. Go ahead, plant a flag on the internet and say, “Only 302 children will die.” No one will. That’s the kind action on social media that gets you fired from your job. And I trust our social media enclave isn’t so careless and irresponsible with life that it would even, for even a millisecond, enter any of your minds to make such an argument.
> 
> Considered another way: You’re presented with a bag with 189,000 $1 bills. You’re told that in the bag are 302 random bills, they look and feel just like all the others, but each one of those bills will kill you. Do you take the money out of the bag?
> 
> Same argument, applied to the 12,487 teachers in FCPS (per Wikipedia), using the ‘children’s multiplier’ of .0016 (all of us understanding the adult mortality rate is higher). That’s 20 teachers. That’s the number you’re talking about. It’s very easy to sit behind a keyboard and diminish and dismiss the risk you’re advocating other people assume. Take a breath and think about that.
> 
> If you want to advocate for 2 days a week, look, I’m looking for someone to convince me. But please, for the love of God, drop things like this from your argument. Because the people I know who’ve said things like this, I know they’re better people than this. They’re good people under incredible stress who let things slip out as their frustration boils over. So, please do the right thing and move on from this, because one potential outcome is that one day, you’re going to have to stand in front of St. Peter and answer for this, and that’s not going to be conversation you enjoy.
> 
> *****“Hardly any kids get COVID.”*****
> 
> (Deep sigh) Yes, that is statistically true as of this writing. But it is a cherry-picked argument because you’re leaving out an important piece.
> 
> One can reasonably argue that, due to the school closures in March, children have had the least EXPOSURE to COVID. In other words, closing schools was the one pandemic mitigation action we took that worked. There can be no discussion of the rate of diagnosis within children without also acknowledging they were among our fastest and most quarantined people. Put another way, you cannot cite the effect without acknowledging the cause.
> 
> *****“The flu kills more people every year.”*****
> 
> (Deep sigh). First of all, no, it doesn’t. Per the CDC, United States flu deaths average 20,000 annually. COVID, when I start writing here today, has killed 133,420 in six months.
> 
> And when you mention the flu, do you mean the disease that, if you’re suspected of having it, everyone, literally everyone in the country tells you stay the f- away from other people? You mean the one where parents are pretty sure their kids have it but send them to school anyway because they have a meeting that day, the one that every year causes massive f-ing outbreaks in schools because schools are petri dishes and it causes kids to miss weeks of school and leaves them out of sports and band for a month? That one? Because you’re right - the flu kills people every year. It does, but you’re ignoring the why. It’s because there are people who are a--holes who don’t care about infecting other people. In that regard it’s a perfect comparison to COVID.
> 
> *****“Almost everyone recovers.”*****
> 
> You’re confusing “release from the hospital” and “no longer infected” with “recovered.” I’m fortunate to only know two people who have had COVID. One my age and one my dad’s age. The one my age described it as “absolute hell” and although no longer infected cannot breathe right. The one my dad’s age was in the hospital for 13 weeks, had to have a trach ring put in because she could no longer be on a ventilator, and upon finally getting home and being faced with incalculable time in rehab told my mother, “I wish I had died.”
> 
> While I’m making every effort to reach objectivity, on this particular point, you don’t know what the f- you’re talking about.
> 
> *****“If people get sick, they get sick.”*****
> 
> First, you mistyped. What you intended to say was “If OTHER people get sick, they get sick.” And shame on you.
> 
> *****“I’m not going to live my life in fear.”*****
> 
> You already live your life in fear. For your health, your family’s health, your job, your retirement, terrorists, extremists, one political party or the other being in power, the new neighbors, an unexpected home repair, the next sunrise. What you meant to say was, “I’m not prepared to add ANOTHER fear,” and I’ve got news for you: that ship has sailed. It’s too late. There are two kinds of people, and only two: those that admit they’re afraid, and those that are lying to themselves about it.
> 
> As to the fear argument, fear is the reason you wait up when your kids stay out late, it’s the reason you tell your kids not to dive in the shallow water, to look both ways before crossing the road. Fear is the respect for the wide world that we teach our children. Except in this instance, for reasons no one has been able to explain to me yet.
> 
> *****“FCPS leadership sucks.”*****
> 
> I will summarize my view of the School Board thusly: if the 12 of you aren’t getting into a room together because it represents a risk, don’t tell me it’s OK for our kids. I understand your arguments, that we need the 2 days option for parents who can’t work from home, kids who don’t have internet or computer access, kids who needs meals from the school system, kids who need extra support to learn, and most tragically for kids who are at greater risk of abuse by being home. All very serious, all very real issues, all heartbreaking. No argument.
> 
> But you must first lead by example. Because you’re failing when it comes to optics. All your meetings are online. What our children see is all of you on a Zoom telling them it’s OK for them to be exactly where you aren’t. I understand you’re not PR people, but you really should think about hiring some.
> 
> *****“I talked it over with my kids.”*****
> Let’s put aside for a moment the concept of adults effectively deferring this decision to children, the same children who will continue to stuff things into a full trash can rather than change it out. Yes, those hygienic children.
> 
> Listen, my 15 year old daughter wants a sport car, which she’s not getting next year because it would be dangerous to her and to others. Those kinds of decisions are our job. We step in and decide as parents, we don’t let them expose themselves to risks because their still developing and screen addicted brains narrow their understanding of cause and effect.
> 
> We as parents and adults serve to make difficult decisions. Sometimes those are in the form of lessons, where we try to steer kids towards the right answer and are willing to let them make a mistake in the hopes of teaching better decision making the next time around. This is not one of those moments. The stakes are too high for that. This is a “the adults are talking” moment. Kids are not mature enough for this moment. That is not an attack on your child. It is a broad statement about all children. It is true of your children and it was true when we were children. We need to be doing that thinking here, and “Johnny wants to see Bobby at school” cannot be the prevailing element in the equation.
> 
> *****“The teachers need to do their job.”*****
> How is it that the same society which abruptly shifted to virtual students only three months ago, and offered glowing endorsements of teachers stating, “we finally understand how difficult your job is,” has now shifted to “screw you, do your job.” There are myriad problems with that position but for the purposes of this piece let’s simply go with, “You’re not looking for a teacher, you’re looking for the babysitter you feel your property tax payment entitles you to.”
> 
> *****“Teachers have a greater chance to being killed by a car than they do of dying from COVID.”*****
> 
> (Eye roll) Per the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), the U.S. see approximately 36,000 auto fatalities a year. Again, there have been 133,420 COVID deaths in the United States through 12:09 July 10, 2020. So no, they do not have a great chance of being killed in a car accident.
> 
> And, if you want to take the actual environment into consideration, the odds of a teacher being killed in a car accident in their classroom, you know, the environment we’re actually talking about, that’s right around 0%.
> 
> *****“If the grocery store workers can be onsite what are the teachers afraid of?”*****
> 
> (Deep breath) A grocery store worker, who absolutely risks exposure, has either six feet of space or a plexiglass shield between them and individual adult customers who can grasp their own mortality whose transactions can be completed in moments, in a 40,000 SF space.
> 
> A teacher is with 11 ‘customers’ who have not an inkling what mortality is, for 45 minutes, in a 675 SF space, six times a day.
> 
> Just stop.
> 
> *****“Teachers are choosing remote because they don’t want to work.”*****
> 
> (Deep breaths) Many teachers are opting to be remote. That is not a vacation. They’re requesting to do their job at a safer site. Just like many, many people who work in buildings with recycled air have done. And likely the building you’re not going into has a newer and better serviced air system than our schools.
> 
> Of greater interest to me is the number of teachers choosing the 100% virtual option for their children. The people who spend the most time in the buildings are the same ones electing not to send their children into those buildings. That’s something I pay attention to.
> 
> *****“I wasn’t prepared to be a parent 24/7” and “I just need a break.”*****
> 
> I truly, deeply respect that honesty. Truth be told, both arguments have crossed my mind. Pre COVID, I routinely worked from home 1 – 2 days a week. The solace was nice. When I was in the office, I had an actual office, a room with a door I could close, where I could focus. During the quarantine that hasn’t always been the case. I’ve been frustrated, I’ve been short, I’ve gone to just take a drive and get the hell away for a moment and been disgusted when one of the kids sees me and asks me to come for a ride, robbing me of those minutes of silence. You want to hear silence. I get it. I really, really do.
> 
> Here’s another version of that, admittedly extreme. What if one of our kids becomes one of the 302? What’s that silence going to sound like? What if you have one of those matted frames where you add the kid’s school picture every year? What if you don’t get to finish the pictures?
> 
> *****“What does your gut tell you to do?”*****
> 
> Shawn and I have talked ad infinitum about all of these and other points. Two days ago, at mid-discussion I said, “Stop, right now, gut answer, what is it,” and we both said, “virtual.”
> 
> A lot of the arguments I hear people making for the 2 days sound like we’re trying to talk ourselves into ignoring our instincts, they are almost exclusively, “We’re doing 2 days, but…”. There’s a fantastic book by Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear, which I’ll minimize for you thusly: your gut instinct is a hardwired part of your brain and you should listen to it. In the introduction he talks about elevators, and how, of all living things, humans are the only ones that would voluntarily get into a soundproof steel box with a potential predator just so they could skip a flight of stairs.
> 
> I keep thinking that the 2 days option is the soundproof steel box. I welcome, damn, beg, anyone to convince me otherwise.
> 
> At the time I started writing at 12:09 PM, 133,420 Americans had died from COVID. Upon completing this draft at 7:04 PM, that number rose to 133,940.
> 
> 520 Americans died of COVID while I was working on this. In seven hours.
> 
> The length of a school day. #302



 https://www.facebook.com/1025986452/posts/10220355869899951/?d=n


----------



## stellarpanther

There are various pros and cons for opening schools but regardless of what side of the fence people are on, I am predicting that there will be so many teachers and students infected with COVID that they will be forced to shut most of the schools by Thanksgiving.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Overlooked: the "daycare" function.

Treat teachers like every other employee not working.  Lay them off, give them the employment benefits currently available, and grant the per-pupil funding directly to parents to make arrangements for their children as they see fit.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Overlooked: the "daycare" function.
> 
> Treat teachers like every other employee not working.  Lay them off, give them the employment benefits currently available, and grant the per-pupil funding directly to parents to make arrangements for their children as they see fit.


Crack dealers and hot tub sellers 100% agree with you.


----------



## Ralph

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Overlooked: the "daycare" function.
> 
> Treat teachers like every other employee not working.  Lay them off, give them the employment benefits currently available, and grant the per-pupil funding directly to parents to make arrangements for their children as they see fit.



Are you under the impression that the teachers weren't teaching between when the pandemic started and the end of the school year?


----------



## Remius

Ralph said:
			
		

> Are you under the impression that the teachers weren't teaching between when the pandemic started and the end of the school year?



Some certainly were not or did the bare minimum.  A friend of mine said that many of her collègues just “punched out” and gave up.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Remius said:
			
		

> Some certainly were not or did the bare minimum.  A friend of mine said that many of her collègues just “punched out” and gave up.



Yes, that’s true unfortunately. My 10yo, on average, had around 1.5hrs of school work/day. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes less depending. But others in the same school board, same grade had very involved lessons and projects. But I believe it’s mainly because there was no planned COA for this type of circumstance. There was no structure, no (or very few) policies, no definitive guide, outline or criteria that teachers typically rely on during any normal school year offering clear direction and expectations. Everyone was just winging it. As well, many teachers were thrust into working from home all day with their own families/little ones needing/demanding attention too. As with any other profession, each individual circumstance was different. Family dynamic, age, accessibility, planning time, etc. Not everyone can/could escape to a home office, get a SO to watch the kids, and/or of course, go sit in their classroom after hours to get a bit done.


Brad: Curious if you feel the same way about *all* professions. CAF *still* has pers at home not working (or working very little), several other fed & prov gov employees were off for weeks and weeks. Dental services, Dr’s and other healthcare professionals weren’t offering services at all (for obvious reasons) the list gets longer. Should they all have been/be laid off, stop collecting salaries, go on EI?


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Sorry, I meant civilians who aren't uniformed and public service / emergency services
> 
> (I'm referring to Joe Schmoe)



I remember a colleague who was absolutely terrified of needles. Saw it during training when we were practicing on each other. 

But, he had no problem at all harpooning the other guys. Seemed quite enthusiastic about it, actually. 



> How anti-vaxxers could disrupt the cure for the COVID-19 pandemic
> https://www.macleans.ca/society/health/how-anti-vaxxers-could-disrupt-the-cure-for-the-covid-19-pandemic/
> 
> A COVID-19 vaccine will become the most valued resource on the planet, as governments try to get enough for their citizens. But it would all be for naught if they're unable to convince people to take it when the time comes.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Crack dealers and hot tub sellers 100% agree with you.

I doubt they'd accept vouchers as payment, particularly if there are no physically transferable certificates.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Are you under the impression that the teachers weren't teaching between when the pandemic started and the end of the school year?

What the teachers did is beside the point, which is that at least some parents come to rely on the "daycare" function to support  their work and home lives.  Possibly even teachers: "As well, many teachers were thrust into working from home all day with their own families/little ones needing/demanding attention too."


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Curious if you feel the same way about *all* professions.

CAF is an outlier.  Some people were isolated for force protection, and I am fully aware that some people in uniform are, from time to time, paid to hang out in unit lines until end of day (the problem not being that they are paid, but that nothing useful can be found to do).  But everyone else: yes.  If a business (eg. dentist) has cash or wants to take out loans to keep paying staff, that's a private decision.

Generally the point is to alleviate social stresses by sharing the pain.  Stories will emerge that some people in public service have been paid 100% for less than 100%, and the people who are financially hurt by being denied their employment will not be happy.  If everyone shares the same situation (eg. moved onto EI) it will be harder for anyone to reasonably complain that things aren't "fair".  If people have not learned the lesson of what happens when the reasonably well-off in society protect themselves at the expense of those less well-off, they never will.  They'll just keep wondering how populism happens and deploring the people who support it.

Specifically for education, though, the point is to allow parents to employ alternatives.  Status quo has been remarkably upset; an opportunity for change exists.  Whenever that happens, there is never just one path forward.  Undoubtedly teachers in the public system would like to be paid, to do whatever they are told to do, as long as it is low/no risk.  Parents have been exposed to alternatives.  Failure to quickly re-assert status quo ante will enable alternatives to become well-established.  Long-term, the gap between families with resources and families without will increase.  Kids from families with resources will arrive at university better prepared (alternative schools, private or small group tutors, home schooling, etc) than those without.  Kids who are poorly served by their neighbourhood schools at present, I can guess will be even less well-served by a more fragmented regimen.  They will face more obstacles; they will be more likely to get into situations involving the law.  Then I suppose everyone will blame the police for disproportionate enforcement.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Curious if you feel the same way about *all* professions.
> 
> 
> ...Specifically for education, though, the point is to allow parents to employ alternatives.  Status quo has been remarkably upset; an opportunity for change exists.  Whenever that happens, there is never just one path forward.  Undoubtedly teachers in the public system would like to be paid, to do whatever they are told to do, as long as it is low/no risk.  Parents have been exposed to alternatives.  Failure to quickly re-assert status quo ante will enable alternatives to become well-established.  Long-term, the gap between families with resources and families without will increase.  Kids from families with resources will arrive at university better prepared (alternative schools, private or small group tutors, home schooling, etc) than those without.  Kids who are poorly served by their neighbourhood schools at present, I can guess will be even less well-served by a more fragmented regimen.  They will face more obstacles; they will be more likely to get into situations involving the law.  Then I suppose everyone will blame the police for disproportionate enforcement.



I think another main point of issue is that so much largely depends on where in the child’s education they are atm. I’m fortunate in that ours isn’t in a more crucial period, meaning getting ready for post-secondary, or more formative levels. He’s in that cusp of school just becoming more challenging/requiring effort and focus now, as opposed to mostly learning through play like the earlier years. But nothing is heavily hinging on his performance right now.

I don’t necessarily feel there’s no room for improvement, or that modification to our model (I’ll speak to ON only, since that’s where I am) isn’t worth reviewing. But to what end? I don’t feel now is the time to be making concrete and permanent changes, because all—this—is, as far as we know, only temporary. Perhaps a long “temporary”, but temp nonetheless. Making substantial changes now would more than likely lead to more complication later when things begin to settle and there’s a clear way forward. Adjustment and guidance is needed for sure, but this isn’t the time to be entirely revamping a system for the long term.

I don’t want to turn this into another teacher-centric thread, but there’s a lot of unnecessary and incorrect negative bias towards the whole of a teacher’s career. As we’ve read when comparing experiences cross-country, no two careers are identical. And many certainly aren’t a walkinthepark, as some like to think.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I understand the sentiment, but good luck.  A lot of people seem to think a crisis - including this one - is an opportunity to change the ways all sorts of things are done.  There are no exemption cards.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I understand the sentiment, but good luck.  A lot of people seem to think a crisis - including this one - is an opportunity to change the ways all sorts of things are done.  There are no exemption cards.



Bill Gates stated he would like things to always be this way. He can f^ck off, with Ellen DeGeneres and Oprah as well.


As for vaccinations a whole bunch of diseases that killed people by the thousands have now been minimized. Vaccines properly developed, tested and administered are beneficial.


----------



## mariomike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Bill Gates stated he would like things to always be this way. He can f^ck off,



Would you mind posting your source? Thank-you!


----------



## OldSolduer

mariomike said:
			
		

> Would you mind posting your source? Thank-you!



It was on an episode of that wonderful thoughtful "Ellen" show that is cotton candy for the brain - it will leave your brain diabetic. I will try to find it.


----------



## mariomike

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I will try to find it.



Please don't bother. I've never watched those shows. My mother does. "Oprah said this! Ellen said that!" 

Guy "losing it" in an Edmonton liquor store over masks and turbans.
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbm=vid&ei=HggrX-qFIoqzytMPpoaz6AQ&q=edmonton+%22liquor+store%22&oq=edmonton+%22liquor+store%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...9793.13305.0.14978.2.2.0.0.0.0.241.467.2-2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.223...0i3k1.0.NqAfeb2nmJU#spf=1596655664238


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Bill Gates stated he would like things to always be this way. He can f^ck off, with Ellen DeGeneres and Oprah as well.



Then introverts like him can rule the world! mwahahahahahaha!


----------



## stellarpanther

I see today that Australia is doing what I have been suggesting since the start of this and that is to use the military.  They have troops in the streets doing enforcement action.   We are too worried about offending someone by forcing them to wear a mask.  People need to keep their mouths and big noses covered or face a stiff fine, IMO.


----------



## suffolkowner

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I see today that Australia is doing what I have been suggesting since the start of this and that is to use the military.  They have troops in the streets doing enforcement action.   We are too worried about offending someone by forcing them to wear a mask.  People need to keep their mouths and big noses covered or face a stiff fine, IMO.



Man I got to say it you seem really paranoid about this whole situation. We have decreasing daily case totals, ICU have been over 75% empty since day one and almost 80% of deaths have been in long term care homes


----------



## Brad Sallows

What "we are too worried" about has nothing to do with masks.  This pandemic has focused attention on how remarkably risk-averse people have become in a couple of decades or less.  Prior generations had to, and did, live "normally" in the face of all sorts of health risks.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> What "we are too worried" about has nothing to do with masks.  This pandemic has focused attention on how remarkably risk-averse people have become in a couple of decades or less.  Prior generations had to, and did, live "normally" in the face of all sorts of health risks.



Like wars that killed tens of millions of people in a short period of time, right?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> What "we are too worried" about has nothing to do with masks.  This pandemic has focused attention on how remarkably risk-averse people have become in a couple of decades or less.  Prior generations had to, and did, live "normally" in the face of all sorts of health risks.



And when it comes to masks, and taking actions to protect the greater good, we haven’t evolved at all.

These surprisingly relevant vintage ads show how officials tried to convince people to wear masks after many refused during the 1918 flu pandemic



> ...However, many refused to wear them in 1918, saying that government-mandated mask enforcement violated their civil liberties. An "Anti-Mask League" was even formed in San Francisco to protest the legislation..



 https://www.businessinsider.com/people-vintage-mask-ads-spanish-flu-1918-pandemic-2020-5



 The Mask Slackers of 1918



> In 1918 and 1919, as bars, saloons, restaurants, theaters and schools were closed, masks became a scapegoat, a symbol of government overreach, inspiring protests, petitions and defiant bare-face gatherings. All the while, thousands of Americans were dying in a deadly pandemic...
> 
> The first infections were identified in March, at an Army base in Kansas, where 100 soldiers were infected. Within a week, the number of flu cases grew fivefold, and soon the disease was taking hold across the country, prompting some cities to impose quarantines and mask orders to contain it...
> 
> Organized resistance to mask wearing was not common, Dr. Markel said, but it was present. “There were flare-ups, there were scuffles and there were occasional groups, like the Anti-Mask League,” he said, “but that is the exception rather than the rule.”



 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/mask-protests-1918.html


 When Mask-Wearing Rules in the 1918 Pandemic Faced Resistance



> ...Cities that passed masking ordinances in the fall of 1918 struggled to enforce them among the small portion of people who rebelled. Common punishments were fines, prison sentences and having your name printed in the paper. In one horrific incident in San Francisco, a special officer for the board of health shot a man who refused to wear a mask as well as two bystanders.
> This was far different from the treatment San Francisco’s leaders received when they didn’t comply. At a boxing match, a police photographer captured images of several supervisors, a congressman, a justice, a Navy rear-admiral, the city’s health officer and even the mayor, all without masks. The health officer paid a $5 fine and the mayor later paid a $50 fine, but unlike other “mask slackers,” they received no prison time (not to mention no one shot at them)...



 https://www.history.com/news/1918-spanish-flu-mask-wearing-resistance


----------



## stellarpanther

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Man I got to say it you seem really paranoid about this whole situation. We have decreasing daily case totals, ICU have been over 75% empty since day one and almost 80% of deaths have been in long term care homes



I'm not sure if I would say paranoid but I am concerned about it and people should be.  I'm one of the people who is still following what the health experts say to do.  My guess is based on you post is that you are not taking it too serious or am I wrong?  Too many people are acting like it's no big deal or it's over.


----------



## PuckChaser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I would say paranoid but I am concerned about it and people should be.  I'm one of the people who is still following what the health experts say to do.  My guess is based on you post is that you are not taking it to serious or am I wrong?  Too many people are acting like it's no big deal or it's over.



Most of us were concerned 3 months ago. Now that Ontario's had 3 days of sub 100 new cases (with 25K+ tests per day), overall declining total of current cases and rapidly decreased mortality rate, we're probably all realizing the immediate threat is over and don't need to live in panic or fear anymore. At this rate, we'll still have mandatory masks and draconian business/occupancy limits when the current case load of COVID-19 patients matches/drops below the current case load of Tuberculosis patients.

Fear of the unknown is always a thing, but now that we know what we're dealing with and how to go about our normal lives with some simple mitigation measures, it makes no logical sense to still be in "Chicken Little mode".


----------



## suffolkowner

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I would say paranoid but I am concerned about it and people should be.  I'm one of the people who is still following what the health experts say to do.  My guess is based on you post is that you are not taking it too serious or am I wrong?  Too many people are acting like it's no big deal or it's over.



I lived through the Hong Kong flu and I don't remember it at all. How serious am I suppossed to take it? Martial law to enforce mask wearing serious? You can count me out. Get a vaccination for MMR serious, yeah you sign me up


----------



## Jarnhamar

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I see today that Australia is doing what I have been suggesting since the start of this and that is to use the military.  They have troops in the streets doing enforcement action.   We are too worried about offending someone by forcing them to wear a mask.  People need to keep their mouths and big noses covered or face a stiff fine, IMO.



The Australian military (and police) aren't wearing masks in half the videos of them going around town.

Would _you_ personally deploy to down town Toronto or out to BC to help enforce mask wearing? Or would that be up to other soldiers.


----------



## stellarpanther

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The Australian military (and police) aren't wearing masks in half the videos of them going around town.
> 
> Would _you_ personally deploy to down town Toronto or out to BC to help enforce mask wearing? Or would that be up to other soldiers.



I don't believe they are asking people to wear masks outdoors when going for a walk etc.  They are saying to wear a mask over your mouth and noise when in a public area such as grocery store or other area that proper distancing can't be made.  That would probably also mean the people I recently saw standing around in a group of 4 with no mask was a violation.  I don't need to go over the list of requirements because most people know what they are.  I would have no problem deploying to the Eaton Centre or neighborhood grocery store to enforce the mask policy if I could.  I would probably do it for free.  It pisses me off when I see it.  
I can't find it but there was a directive from the CDS a couple months ago about wearing masks but apparently many CAF mbr's don't believe it is directed at them.
I'm posted in a couple weeks and I told my CWO yesterday that I will have something to say to anyone regardless of rank if I see them not following the regulation.  I've already walked up to a Colonel and told him he should be wearing a mask and it sets a bad example for those under him when they see it.  He looked shocked but actually apologized and told me I was right and thanked me for having the courage for speaking up.


----------



## BDTyre

See, here in BC, we're swinging the other way. Cases are trending up, and just today we have more cases in hospital in ICU. Yes, are numbers are still very low (we hit over 50 new cases in one day recently for the first time since April) but they are going up and have been for the past two to three weeks (we were in the teens for the most part prior to that). More people seem to be wearing masks but certain age groups seem to have trouble following rules and this is something I've seen first hand (and in some cases have witnessed since March, but I guess some people just won't learn).


----------



## BeyondTheNow

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't believe they are asking people to wear masks outdoors when going for a walk etc.  They are saying to wear a mask over your mouth and noise when in a public area such as grocery store or other area that proper distancing can't be made.  That would probably also mean the people I recently saw standing around in a group of 4 with no mask was a violation.  I don't need to go over the list of requirements because most people know what they are.  I would have no problem deploying to the Eaton Centre or neighborhood grocery store to enforce the mask policy if I could.  I would probably do it for free.  It pisses me off when I see it.
> I can't find it but there was a directive from the CDS a couple months ago about wearing masks but apparently many CAF mbr's don't believe it is directed at them.
> I'm posted in a couple weeks and I told my CWO yesterday that I will have something to say to anyone regardless of rank if I see them not following the regulation.  I've already walked up to a Colonel and told him he should be wearing a mask and it sets a bad example for those under him when they see it.  He looked shocked but actually apologized and told me I was right and thanked me for having the courage for speaking up.



That you saw in person here, or on TV in Australia? (Not sure what their grp gathering policies are), but we’re now at 50 indoors and 100 outdoors, so there was no violation. Even at stage 2, 4 wasn’t a violation.
(Edit to add, I’d imagine they weren’t on top of each other.)

 https://www.ontario.ca/page/framework-reopening-our-province-stage-3


----------



## suffolkowner

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> See, here in BC, we're swinging the other way. Cases are trending up, and just to do we have more cases in hospital in ICU. Yes, are numbers are still very low (we hit over 50 new cases in one day recently for the first time since April) but they are going up and have been for the past two to three weeks (we were in the teens for the most part prior to that). More people seem to be wearing masks but certain age groups seem to have trouble following rules and this is something I've seen first hand (and in some cases have witnessed since March, but I guess some people just won't learn).



There are 9 people hospitalized in BC of which 6 are in the ICU currently
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded


----------



## PPCLI Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Most of us were concerned 3 months ago. Now that Ontario's had 3 days of sub 100 new cases (with 25K+ tests per day), overall declining total of current cases and rapidly decreased mortality rate, we're probably all realizing the immediate threat is over and don't need to live in panic or fear anymore. At this rate, we'll still have mandatory masks and draconian business/occupancy limits when the current case load of COVID-19 patients matches/drops below the current case load of Tuberculosis patients.
> 
> Fear of the unknown is always a thing, but now that we know what we're dealing with and how to go about our normal lives with some simple mitigation measures, it makes no logical sense to still be in "Chicken Little mode".



We will see a spike around 14 Aug, much as we did around 14 Jul.  People are still doing dumb shit...on long weekends.


----------



## BDTyre

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> There are 9 people hospitalized in BC of which 6 are in the ICU currently
> https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded



Total number of cases for the 20-29 age group now equal the total cases for the 50-59 age group (630); 30-39 now has the most total cases at 678. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of the newer cases in the 30-39 age group are probably in the 30-35 subgroup. This is speaking just from personal experience and observation of course and is in no way based on any sort of science or fact.


----------



## stellarpanther

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> That you saw in person here, or on TV in Australia? (Not sure what their grp gathering policies are), but we’re now at 50 indoors and 100 outdoors, so there was no violation. Even at stage 2, 4 wasn’t a violation.
> (Edit to add, I’d imagine they weren’t on top of each other.)
> 
> https://www.ontario.ca/page/framework-reopening-our-province-stage-3



Sorry, the group I was referring to was at NDHQ.  From what I hear, even at some of the bases, people seem to be slacking off on the use of masks and nobody is saying anything.  I was talking to a buddy yesterday and he was telling me that while in clothing stores on one of the bases, people were standing around taking to each other and the only mask he saw was hanging of the monitor.


----------



## stellarpanther

Since I was accused of sounding paranoid which is not the case, I want to be clear.  I am not saying that people should be locking themselves in the house and hiding under the bed but what I'm saying is that, we are getting our numbers down but that doesn't mean we should be going to party's or bars or acting like this is all but over because that's a recipe for increasing cases.  All experts are saying masks are important.  If healthcare workers can wear an uncomfortable N95 for a 12 hour shift when working with COVID patients, I don't think it's too much trouble for people to wear a mask for 15 minutes while shopping or at work when we get a nice cloth mask.  People also need to listen to experts and stop pretending they know better.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>People also need to listen to experts and stop pretending they know better. 

Partly tongue-in-cheek: how do we know when they're correct?

(Yes, I know: follow the best advice you have at the time.  But, when the advice is carry on as usual, forgive me if I err on the side of caution and fault others for not recommending the same.)


----------



## mariomike

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If healthcare workers can wear an uncomfortable N95 for a 12 hour shift when working with COVID patients,



 :goodpost:

And back in 2003, being isolated from your family for the 12 hours off. They called it "Working Quarantine".


----------



## PuckChaser

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> We will see a spike around 14 Aug, much as we did around 14 Jul.  People are still doing dumb crap...on long weekends.


Didn't have a spike after May 24, Canada Day or the massive protests. Why is Civic holiday special?


----------



## stellarpanther

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >People also need to listen to experts and stop pretending they know better.
> 
> Partly tongue-in-cheek: how do we know when they're correct?
> 
> (Yes, I know: follow the best advice you have at the time.  But, when the advice is carry on as usual, forgive me if I err on the side of caution and fault others for not recommending the same.)



I suppose all of them could be wrong but they are the ones who went to school for several years to studying this stuff, they are the experts in this area.  If we have a legal issue, we follow the advice of a lawyer, if we have a problem with our furnace or AC we trust what the heating and cooling tech says.  When we have a medical issue most people trust what the doctor say you need to do so I don't understand why so many people are having such a hard time listening to experts who make a career out of studying viruses.


----------



## brihard

Some pretty significant and bad new out that's flying surprisingly almost under the radar.

BLUF: Less than 3% of the population has had COVID so far according to antibody testing of blood donation samples. We're nowhere clsoe to herd immunity. We remain very vulnerable to complacency.

COVID testing was conducted on blood samples collected by Canadian Blood Service to try to get an extrapolation of how widely spread COVID has been in the community. Numbers for Quebec unfortunately only come out to about 3x the etrapolated infections compared to the total positive test results. Similar results in Ontario. The 'so what' is that between 2-3% of the Canadian population is extrapolated as having COVID antibodies indicating prior infection as of the sample data (which goes I think to about June). Following from this- the vast majority of the population has not likely been infected thus far, and therefore there's still a great susceptibility to infection. This effectively dashes hopes that undetected infections might have us somewhere close to the beginning of meaningful herd immunity.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/blood-donor-study-covid-19-infection-immunity-1.5674771


----------



## stellarpanther

Brihard said:
			
		

> Some pretty significant and bad new out that's flying surprisingly almost under the radar.
> 
> BLUF: Less than 3% of the population has had COVID so far according to antibody testing of blood donation samples. We're nowhere clsoe to herd immunity. We remain very vulnerable to complacency.
> 
> COVID testing was conducted on blood samples collected by Canadian Blood Service to try to get an extrapolation of how widely spread COVID has been in the community. Numbers for Quebec unfortunately only come out to about 3x the etrapolated infections compared to the total positive test results. Similar results in Ontario. The 'so what' is that between 2-3% of the Canadian population is extrapolated as having COVID antibodies indicating prior infection as of the sample data (which goes I think to about June). Following from this- the vast majority of the population has not likely been infected thus far, and therefore there's still a great susceptibility to infection. This effectively dashes hopes that undetected infections might have us somewhere close to the beginning of meaningful herd immunity.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/blood-donor-study-covid-19-infection-immunity-1.5674771



There have also been reports in the last month or so that question how long immunity will last with some studies indicating it might only be a few months.  If true, it would mean herd immunity isn't an option.


----------



## stellarpanther

Here is an interesting article about how fast COVID can spread when not taken seriously.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/covid-19-too-large-social-gatherings-blamed-for-aylmer-outbreak


----------



## CBH99

So I might be saying something somewhat controversial.  Truly not trying to add gasoline to a fire by any means, and I realize the data won't be in yet, if ever.

As we've all experienced throughout this situation, the numbers and information flouted by the mainstream media isn't always accurate or reliable.  The mainstream media seems intent on reporting anything & everything COVID related, without fact checking or much due diligence.


About 2 months ago, gyms and fitness facilities here in Alberta opened up.  Everybody, from what I've observed, has been very good about wiping down equipment and upping the hygiene levels.  Personally, I used to only wipe down equipment if I was sweating - now, I wipe down everything I touch.  And I've noticed other people have done the same.

That being said, I haven't heard of a single COVID case related to a gym or fitness facility as of yet.  

Several of my friends play team sports such as basketball, and I haven't heard of a single COVID case related to that either.



I do wear a mask when indoors now.  One, because it's now the law until the end of the year.  And also because, while I am not personally worried about catching it at all, if it helps lower the chances of someone else catching it or helps the community as a whole, then fair enough.  Especially if I happen to be one of those A-symptomatic folks who has it & doesn't even know it.

*I guess my broad and probably ill-articulated question is:  If gyms and fitness facilities have been open for 2 months, and we haven't seen any kind of increase or spike related to that, how worried do we really need to be in regards to schools opening?
*


People at the gym are breathing heavily, sweating, etc.  Team sports, people are panting & literally smashing into each other, and it isn't uncommon for 5 or 6 people to be scurrying for the ball at the same time, all of whom are breathing heavy.

Obviously it's good to be cautious.  But since know the virus affects older folks & folks with serious underlying health conditions mostly (for the most part, I understand there is always the odd healthy person who gets smacked hard by it) -- I'd assume schools would be a reasonable risk?


----------



## BeyondTheNow

AB has had spikes/increased numbers though. They’re the highest per capita in the country as of a few weeks ago. :dunno:



> TORONTO -- The number of people that currently have COVID-19 in Alberta is now roughly double that of Ontario on a per capita basis, following a spike in new cases after the province began reopening its economy in June.
> 
> The recent rise in infections in some provinces have highlighted concerns over the consequences of reopening too soon, but the notable increase in Alberta is also sparking worries the Western province could become the new hot spot for Canada...



 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/alberta-has-most-active-covid-cases-per-capita-as-some-provinces-see-infections-spike-after-reopening-1.5028824


----------



## CBH99

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> AB has had spikes/increased numbers though. They’re the highest per capita in the country as of a few weeks ago. :dunno:
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/alberta-has-most-active-covid-cases-per-capita-as-some-provinces-see-infections-spike-after-reopening-1.5028824




I think that was attributed to 2 primary causes:

1.  A TON of people have been outside and partying due to our heat wave.  Today it was 31'C, and it's been this way for like 2 weeks.

A ton of people have been going to Sylvan Lake, Banff, Jasper, and Kelowna, to enjoy the hot weather.  I have a ton of friends who have been boating, lots of restaurant eating, partying, etc.

2.  An outbreak at a senior's home in Edmonton really spiked the numbers.  When that 'outbreak' or incident is taken out of the equation, the spike isn't that bad.



Believe it or not, I think the hot weather actually made things worse.  Not the weather itself, but it's sooooooo bloody hot, I know a ton of people who are just sitting in backyard pools, etc.  And hockey started up again, so the pubs have been busy!  The 50/50 draw on the Oilers game tonight is $5M   


I don't have an answer here at all.  I'm happily just watching this all kind of play out, and I do the little things that I can to help.  As someone who usually hits the gym twice a day, my own observations have just been that I haven't noticed or heard of any gym-related COVID cases   :dunno:


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:
			
		

> About 2 months ago, gyms and fitness facilities here in Alberta opened up.  Everybody, from what I've observed, has been very good about wiping down equipment and upping the hygiene levels.  Personally, I used to only wipe down equipment if I was sweating - now, I wipe down everything I touch.  And I've noticed other people have done the same.
> 
> That being said, *I haven't heard of a single COVID case related to a gym or fitness facility* as of yet.



I have.

Calgary restaurant and fitness clubs closed due to COVID-19 concerns
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-restaurant-and-fitness-clubs-closed-due-to-covid-19-concerns-1.5027396


> Alesia Fieldberg  CTV News Calgary Video Journalist Published Thursday, July 16, 2020 3:15PM MDT
> 
> CALGARY -- With a cluster of COVID-19 cases linked to a Calgary restaurant and multiple cases connected to a couple of fitness centres, some are wondering whether Alberta might soon return to stricter measures.
> 
> Five cases of COVID-19 have been linked by Alberta Health Services to the Cactus Club in downtown Calgary — two  staff members and three patrons — and two cases of the virus have been linked to RIDE CYCLE CLUB, including employees of other fitness centres. Several businesses made the decision to temporarily close as a result and urged recent guests to consider getting tested.
> 
> “While AHS has not mandated it, we have decided to voluntarily close this location out of an abundance of caution to ensure the health of everyone,” Cactus Club spokesperson said in a statement.
> 
> It added the restaurant would undergo a deep clean of the restaurant and would likely reopen early next week.
> 
> Anyone who visited the Cactus Club restaurant on Stephen Avenue between July 2 and 10 is asked to monitor symptoms and contact health authorities if needed.
> 
> YYC Cycle is asking anyone who visited its studios since July 2 to do the same.
> 
> “We got word of a potential outbreak of a soon-to-be-open studio in Calgary and once that happened, we understood that there may have been a couple of staff members of ours that attended those private classes,” said Andrew Obrecht, co-owner of YYC Cycle.
> 
> “After that we did find out two staff members did test positive for COVID.”
> 
> He said the businesses has chosen to close its doors until the weekend and has been busy contacting recent guests.
> 
> “We have heard from AHS that because of the protocols and procedures in our studios, those riders that would be in the classes that those staff were in would not have been considered high risk, but of course we can’t take any chances.”
> 
> Other fitness centres that have also chosen to close temporarily because of possible exposure of their staff include Rhythym Ride and Kult Fitness.
> 
> The latest clusters come as Alberta has seen the number of new cases in the province above 80 each of the past few days.
> 
> An infectious disease specialist said many have been wary of a "second wave" but in science numbers don’t always clearly indicate that.
> 
> “I’m not sure we’re ever going to see these classic waves where we have a level of infection that drops down to a level of zero and then another big uptick,” said Craig Jenne from the Cumming School of Medicine.
> 
> “Unfortunately it’s still in our community so we are going to continue to see outbreaks. The key right now is to keep them small.”
> 
> He said the difference about the daily number of cases now as opposed to in March is that positive measures such as masks, social distancing and testing are now in place.


----------



## CBH99

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I have.
> 
> Calgary restaurant and fitness clubs closed due to COVID-19 concerns
> https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-restaurant-and-fitness-clubs-closed-due-to-covid-19-concerns-1.5027396




Hadn't heard of the fitness related one in Calgary.

Ironically enough, if it was on the news here, it wasn't dwelled on.  I try to follow the local news pretty diligently.  Thanks for posting that


----------



## MilEME09

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Hadn't heard of the fitness related one in Calgary.
> 
> Ironically enough, if it was on the news here, it wasn't dwelled on.  I try to follow the local news pretty diligently.  Thanks for posting that



Well the article is from July 16th so you may of missed it.


----------



## BDTyre

CBH99 said:
			
		

> About 2 months ago, gyms and fitness facilities here in Alberta opened up.  Everybody, from what I've observed, has been very good about wiping down equipment and upping the hygiene levels.  Personally, I used to only wipe down equipment if I was sweating - now, I wipe down everything I touch.  And I've noticed other people have done the same.
> 
> That being said, I haven't heard of a single COVID case related to a gym or fitness facility as of yet.



Last month in Burnaby BC, a member at a GoodLife Fitness gym tested positive. Due to the cleaning policies of the gym and the fact they were able to notify all who were there at the same time as the member, Fraser Health advised the gym that the risk of transmission is small. So obviously, their procedures are working well. Of course, this also means the member that tested positive didn't get infected at the gym.


----------



## stellarpanther

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Last month in Burnaby BC, a member at a GoodLife Fitness gym tested positive. Due to the cleaning policies of the gym and the fact they were able to notify all who were there at the same time as the member, Fraser Health advised the gym that the risk of transmission is small. So obviously, their procedures are working well. Of course, this also means the member that tested positive didn't get infected at the gym.



I haven't been to a gym since this has started as there is no real need to, I can do enough outside to stay fit.  One question I have is whether they are making people wear masks while doing there workouts?  My guess is no.
I'm not paranoid about his but as has been pointed out before on here, I am more risk adverse than some others here but I'm fine with that.  I'm in favor of keeping bars closed until this is over even if that means they go out of business, I'm not in favor of large gatherings.  There's a good chance and probably likely that this virus is here for good but that means we need to hopefully get a vaccine but we need to make changes until we do.  We will then need to look at what if any changes need to be made permanent to what used to be normal.  We need to work, kids need to go to school but maybe schooling will be different than it used to be for the next several years.  All pandemics in history eventually came to an end and this will too.  It's not going to wipe civilization but we need to change until it's over.  Sorry for rambling.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>I'm in favor of keeping bars closed until this is over even if that means they go out of business

I suppose you don't work in a bar (or any other business at risk).

We know mitigation measures have caused an economic contraction, which reduces government revenues.  We know that relief measures (transfers) increase government expenses.

Are you still in favour of closing "X" if governments announce tomorrow that in view of lower revenues and higher expenses they are unilaterally cutting all public pay and pensions by 20% in order to fund relief programs?


----------



## stellarpanther

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >I'm in favor of keeping bars closed until this is over even if that means they go out of business
> 
> I suppose you don't work in a bar (or any other business at risk).
> 
> We know mitigation measures have caused an economic contraction, which reduces government revenues.  We know that relief measures (transfers) increase government expenses.
> 
> Are you still in favour of closing "X" if governments announce tomorrow that in view of lower revenues and higher expenses they are unilaterally cutting all public pay and pensions by 20% in order to fund relief programs?



I'm Reg Force and don't have a second job so no I don't work in a bar or elsewhere.  As for a pay cut, obviously I wouldn't like.  While I feel bad for workers in certain industries, do we just let the virus spread so we can keep them working or do we make the tough decision and say some not be allowed to operate and will need to shutdown?


----------



## Brad Sallows

I'm asking the question, because the framing matters.  This kind of question pops up frequently in surveys.

Version 1: Do you approve of beneficial idea "X"?

Version 2: Do you approve of beneficial idea "X", which will cost you "Y"?

Unsurprisingly, Version 1 usually polls higher than Version 2.

How much of a cheque are you willing to write to support people put out of work to protect your health?


----------



## stellarpanther

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I'm asking the question, because the framing matters.  This kind of question pops up frequently in surveys.
> 
> Version 1: Do you approve of beneficial idea "X"?
> 
> Version 2: Do you approve of beneficial idea "X", which will cost you "Y"?
> 
> Unsurprisingly, Version 1 usually polls higher than Version 2.
> 
> How much of a cheque are you willing to write to support people put out of work to protect your health?



So when the board of health shuts down a restaurant and they don't get to reopen, those workers collect EI like anyone else and need to find another job.  Mother Tucker's and Lonestar recently permanently closed up for good because of COVID, those workers will get to collect EI and then need to find another line of work.  Nothing special is will be done for them  It comes across as cold, I know that but if bars and other places are a known cause of spread what do we do, ignore the problem so we can keep those employees working?  I don't think the economy comes before health and yes I understand, unemployment can have mental health consequences.


----------



## Brad Sallows

EI is relief; I have no objection to relief.  But relief must be paid for, and politicians have been using EI surpluses to support other policies, so EI doesn't have a huge bank of money set aside to pay a temporary and massive surge in claims.

I also have no objection to any employer laying off employees, particularly if the employer is operating at less than 100% of expected function.

And I have no objection to governments taking extraordinary action to close extraordinary revenue/expense gaps, as long as the burdens are broadly shared.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Our neighbours have reached that 5 million cases milestone:



> *'Don't they care?': Europeans astonished as U.S. hits 5 million cases*
> 
> With confirmed coronavirus cases in the U.S. hitting 5 million Sunday, by far the highest of any country, the failure of the most powerful nation in the world to contain the scourge has been met with astonishment and alarm in Europe.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/don-t-they-care-europeans-astonished-as-u-s-hits-5-million-cases-1.5057041
> 
> https://apnews.com/2a03a4e685316eb7d5a6e7181000fbfe
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-cases/u-s-sets-record-as-coronavirus-cases-top-5-million-idUSKCN2540XB


----------



## mariomike

> With confirmed coronavirus cases in the U.S. hitting 5 million Sunday, by far the highest of any country, the failure of the most powerful nation in the world to contain the scourge has been met with astonishment and alarm in Europe.



The Irish Times put it this way, 


> For more than two centuries the United States has stirred a very wide range of feelings in the rest of the world: love and hatred, fear and hope, envy and contempt, awe and anger. But there is one emotion that has never been directed towards the U.S. until now: pity.
> https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-donald-trump-has-destroyed-the-country-he-promised-to-make-great-again-1.4235928?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Ffintan-o-toole-donald-trump-has-destroyed-the-country-he-promised-to-make-great-again-1.4235928



Which is pretty amazing considering what America accomplished in World War Two.


----------



## Walt

MARIOMIKE,

You have posted a link to the Irish Times, for which a subscription is required. Useless for most of us as we can't read the article.

Walt


----------



## mariomike

Walt said:
			
		

> You have posted a link to the Irish Times, for which a subscription is required. Useless for most of us as we can't read the article.



Try one of these,
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&ei=z0wwX97HDISkytMPkem_6Ac&q=Over+more+than+two+centuries%2C+the+United+States+has+stirred+a+very+wide+range+of+pity&oq=Over+more+than+two+centuries%2C+the+United+States+has+stirred+a+very+wide+range+of+pity&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoECAAQR1CA0QRY3NwEYPLjBGgAcAF4AIABuQGIAd0EkgEDMi4zmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwie65KA7I7rAhUEknIEHZH0D30Q4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1597000990793


----------



## Walt

MARIOMIKE,

I'm unsure as to the subject & meaning of your post. You originally wrote:

*"Which is pretty amazing considering what America accomplished in World War Two."*

I informed you that access to the link you provided was available only by paid subscription to the website. Your response was:

*"Try one of these,"*, which took me to a Google search of *"Over more than two centuries, the United States has stirred a very wide".* Sorry. I don't comprehend the meaning between the subject of this thread & your statement.

Perhaps in keeping with forum policy, you can be more concise?? Thank you,

Walt


----------



## mariomike

My reply was to the quote in Reply #3385:

"With confirmed coronavirus cases in the U.S. hitting 5 million Sunday, by far the highest of any country, the failure of the most powerful nation in the world to contain the scourge has been met with astonishment and alarm in Europe."

I provided you with many links to this: "The world has loved, hated and envied the US. Now, for the first time, we pity it."
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=0p4wX_CAHdLBytMPr8CikAY&q=The+world+has+loved%2C+hated+and+envied+the+US.+Now%2C+for+the+first+time%2C+we+pity+it&oq=The+world+has+loved%2C+hated+and+envied+the+US.+Now%2C+for+the+first+time%2C+we+pity+it&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzICCABQ0hFY0hFg2B1oAHAAeACAAVOIAVOSAQExmAEAoAECoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjwsbybuo_rAhXSoHIEHS-gCGIQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1597021910228

That's about as concise I can be with you. Now, if you will excuse me, my show is on.


----------



## Brash

Walt said:
			
		

> MARIOMIKE,
> 
> I'm unsure as to the subject & meaning of your post. You originally wrote:
> *"Which is pretty amazing considering what America accomplished in World War Two."*
> I informed you that access to the link you provided was available only by paid subscription to the website. Your response was:
> *"Try one of these,"*, which took me to a Google search of *"Over more than two centuries, the United States has stirred a very wide".* Sorry. I don't comprehend the meaning between the subject of this thread & your statement.
> Perhaps in keeping with forum policy, you can be more concise?? Thank you,



I believe the sentiment behind MM's post was to express a contrast the way in which the world viewed USA post-WWII (respect for the might and ingenuity), and the way the world views the USA now (pity for the divisiveness and apathy).
The link is to google search results among which you can find other examples of articles that express the same sentiment as was posted, without the paywall.
Seems pretty concise.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Russia jumping the gun on a vaccine??
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/russia-becomes-first-country-to-register-coronavirus-vaccine-putin-s-daughter-given-it-1.5059182
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/industry-body-calls-russian-covid-19-vaccine-a-pandoras-box

Lets have a whole lot more testing please,.....who knows what kind of potential 'superbug' could offshoot from not being 100% sure?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Russia jumping the gun on a vaccine??
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/russia-becomes-first-country-to-register-coronavirus-vaccine-putin-s-daughter-given-it-1.5059182
> https://nationalpost.com/news/world/industry-body-calls-russian-covid-19-vaccine-a-pandoras-box
> 
> Lets have a whole lot more testing please,.....who knows what kind of potential 'superbug' could offshoot from not being 100% sure?



One thing we continuously do is underestimate Russia.  The West views them as culturally backward but they do have great scientists and can hammer through a problem with the entire backing of the State when they put their mind to it.  

We shall see what comes out of this, but we should absolutely not underestimate their ability to accomplish this.


----------



## Remius

We also underestimate their ability to steal whatever they can to accomplish this sort of thing.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> We also underestimate their ability to steal whatever they can to accomplish this sort of thing.



No doubt they most likely did steal research. The ends justify the means in this case.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Our neighbours have reached that 5 million cases milestone:



Despite these numbers which the media is constantly screaming about as catastrophic and other countries are aghast at ... the U.S. does not have bodies in the streets, nor a complete economic collapse or any of the other things we've been told for 5 months now will happen if we don't completely lock down. 

The U.S.'s biggest problems seem too be not pandemic-related, with the riots and protests of race/policing issues.


----------



## FJAG

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> The U.S.'s biggest problems seem too be not pandemic-related, with the riots and protests of race/policing issues.



IMHO that's just deflection. The two issues are unrelated and not comparable. The protests haven't killed 166,000 Americans, added 14 million to the unemployed lists, or caused hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of government bailouts of one form or another.

Is the real issue the "riots and protests of race/policing issues" or is it the basic race inequality that the protests are trying to address? Again, IMHO, there's a difference between those who are protesting and those opportunists which use the cover of the protests for their violent anti-social acts.

 :worms:


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

FJAG said:
			
		

> IMHO that's just deflection. The two issues are unrelated and not comparable. The protests haven't killed 166,000 Americans, added 14 million to the unemployed lists, or caused hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars of government bailouts of one form or another.
> 
> Is the real issue the "riots and protests of race/policing issues" or is it the basic race inequality that the protests are trying to address? Again, IMHO, there's a difference between those who are protesting and those opportunists which use the cover of the protests for their violent anti-social acts.
> 
> :worms:



I agree that they are unrelated, that was the point I was attempting to make, but was unclear.

The justification for lockdowns was, as I understood it, "society will collapse if we don't". Now, people are criticizing the USA for not locking down "enough" and the resultant relatively high numbers. Yet society has not collapsed and is not collapsing due to COVID and its 49.65 deaths per 100,000 population (as of 10 August).


----------



## FJAG

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I agree that they are unrelated, that was the point I was attempting to make, but was unclear.
> 
> The justification for lockdowns was, as I understood it, "society will collapse if we don't". Now, people are criticizing the USA for not locking down "enough" and the resultant relatively high numbers. Yet society has not collapsed and is not collapsing due to COVID and its 49.65 deaths per 100,000 population (as of 10 August).



It was never about "society collapsing". It was about even more people getting the virus unnecessarily at such a high rate that the health care system wouldn't be able to cope and you would have two three or more times the number of people die. In fairness, that could have resulted in some vital sectors of the economy (such as food distribution) being compromised but it was never to the extent of society collapsing. Maybe in the mind of some conspiracy theorists (there are plenty on both sides of the spectrum), but not realistically.

 :cheers:


----------



## Brad Sallows

>The U.S.'s biggest problems seem too be not pandemic-related, with the riots and protests of race/policing issues.

Neither of those.  The biggest problems are the social pressures which lead to expressions of rage, whether rioting in the streets or voting for contrary candidates.  Those problems will still be there after the pandemic is resolved (whether contained or tolerated) and the issue-du-jour (police conduct) dies quietly or is partly resolved.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>In fairness, that could have resulted in some vital sectors of the economy (such as food distribution) being compromised

If the health care system were seen to be overwhelmed, people would have opted out of exposure, meaning opted out of doing whatever they do.  That isn't confined to hospitality and entertainment.

If the daily truck traffic bringing food into the cities ceased for long enough, we'd see some collapses.


----------



## GR66

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I agree that they are unrelated, that was the point I was attempting to make, but was unclear.
> 
> The justification for lockdowns was, as I understood it, "society will collapse if we don't". Now, people are criticizing the USA for not locking down "enough" and the resultant relatively high numbers. Yet society has not collapsed and is not collapsing due to COVID and its 49.65 deaths per 100,000 population (as of 10 August).



49.65 deaths per 100,000 population would put COVID as the 3rd leading cause of death in the US based on 2018 numbers (https://www.statista.com/statistics/248622/rates-of-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/)and we're only 6 months in to the 1st wave of the virus.

It's also too early to determine the "excess death rate" (i.e. the number of deaths above the normal annual rate of death) that may also be related to COVID - both unreported/untested COVID deaths and deaths from other causes that can be related to the whole lockdown situation.

I think it would also be fair to say that the lockdown measures that were implemented helped to lower the overall COVID death rate as those actions helped prevent hospitals getting to the point where they were overwhelmed by the number of cases which would increase the overall mortality rate.

Granted, the medical impacts of COVID _so far_ have not looked like the images of pandemics as portrayed in the movies, but you _seem _to suggest that they have been insignificant.  I also think we're a long way from the end of this and the true impacts (medical, societal and economic) won't really be known for quite some time.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Canada, I'm not sure that posting a 'distress Signal' like this, hidden on your earnest but awful guv'mint website, will actually guarantee that you can reliably access the suppliers who can be of most assistance to you.

Just sayin'  :facepalm:

Call to action: Canadian manufacturers needed to help combat COVID-19

If you are a Canadian manufacturer or business that can assist Canada in meeting the need for medical supplies, your help is needed.

If you can say yes to the following, we want to hear from you.

You manufacture in Canada and/or have ready access to necessary inputs through your supply chain.

You have equipment or facilities that can be rapidly re-tooled to meet medical needs, including for personal protective equipment (PPE) such as gloves, masks and surgical gowns; sanitizers; wipes; ventilators; and other medical equipment and supplies.

You have skilled workers who are able to respond and who could be available for work in the current circumstances.

The Plan to Mobilize Industry to fight COVID-19 directly supports businesses to rapidly scale up production or re-tool their manufacturing lines to develop products made in Canada that will help in the fight against COVID-19.

We are stronger when we work together.

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/business/maintaingrowimprovebusiness/manufacturers-needed.html


----------



## mariomike

Could probably catch worse things at the Brass Rail.

https://twitter.com/cityoftoronto/status/1294254283530080257


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

FJAG said:
			
		

> It was never about "society collapsing". It was about even more people getting the virus unnecessarily at such a high rate that the health care system wouldn't be able to cope and you would have two three or more times the number of people die. In fairness, that could have resulted in some vital sectors of the economy (such as food distribution) being compromised but it was never to the extent of society collapsing. Maybe in the mind of some conspiracy theorists (there are plenty on both sides of the spectrum), but not realistically.
> 
> :cheers:



I meant to reply to this but didn't do it right away, and then forgot which sub forum this thread was in! Took me a while to find it.

I'm not sure that actual societal collapse was specifically predicted, but there was an awful lot of very exaggerated/extreme rhetoric coming from the media in the early days, designed to make people agree that lockdowns were the one and only way to combat this. I am still not convinced that it would have ever been as bad as they were saying.

The hospitals have been empty. Now people will say that is because of lockdown, but if the logic is lockdown is needed to prevent total collapse of the medical system, you would think that even with lockdown you'd still have large numbers. That the lockdown emptied out the hospitals suggests it was a more extreme measure than was necessary and therefore we had economic damage done that was not necessary.

Time will tell. I've always argued from the beginning that we traded long term pain (long term economic consequences and an overall higher death toll) for short term gain (fewer deaths now from COVID-19). It will take years for this to play out but already we are seeing increases in overdoses for example and I believe this will continue to grow as we reap what has been sown with the lockdown and massive government debt.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I meant to reply to this but didn't do it right away, and then forgot which sub forum this thread was in! Took me a while to find it.
> 
> I'm not sure that actual societal collapse was specifically predicted, but there was an awful lot of very exaggerated/extreme rhetoric coming from the media in the early days, designed to make people agree that lockdowns were the one and only way to combat this. I am still not convinced that it would have ever been as bad as they were saying.
> 
> The hospitals have been empty. Now people will say that is because of lockdown, but if the logic is lockdown is needed to prevent total collapse of the medical system, you would think that even with lockdown you'd still have large numbers. That the lockdown emptied out the hospitals suggests it was a more extreme measure than was necessary and therefore we had economic damage done that was not necessary.
> 
> Time will tell. I've always argued from the beginning that we traded long term pain (long term economic consequences and an overall higher death toll) for short term gain (fewer deaths now from COVID-19). It will take years for this to play out but already we are seeing increases in overdoses for example and I believe this will continue to grow as we reap what has been sown with the lockdown and massive government debt.



There's alot of material coming out on the negative consequences of the lockdown, mainly on the mental health side it seems:

Negative impacts of COVID-19 lockdown on mental health service access and follow-up adherence for immigrants and individuals in socio-economic difficulties

Abstract

Objectives
Lockdown measures in response to the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic can have serious mental health effects on the population, especially in vulnerable groups, such as those living in poor socio-economic conditions, those who are homeless, migrant workers and asylum seekers/refugees. In addition, these vulnerable groups frequently have greater difficulty accessing health services and in treatment adherence. The aim of this study is to estimate the impact of the COVID-19–related lockdown on service utilisation and follow-up adherence in an Italian mental health outpatient service for migrants and individuals in socio-economic difficulties.

Study design
The design of this study is a retrospective cross-sectional study.

Methods
All patients who visited the mental health outpatient service in the months of February and March in the years 2017–2020 were included in the study. To compare service utilisation before and after the lockdown, the number of patients who visited the mental health outpatient service for psychiatric interview were recorded. Follow-up adherence was calculated as the percentage of patients who visited in February and subsequently attended a follow-up visit in March of the same year.

Results
The number of patients who visited the outpatient service between February 2017 and February 2020 was continuously increasing. In March 2020, fewer patients visited the service for psychiatric interview, in line with the introduction of lockdown measures. In addition, the number of the patients who visited in February 2020 and returned for their follow-up visits in March 2020 declined from approximately 30% over the same months in 2017–2019 to 17.53% in March 2020.

Conclusions
The lockdown-related reduction in numbers of patients accessing the mental health service makes it difficult to help vulnerable populations during a period of time in which their mental health needs are expected to increase. Moreover, the reduction seen in follow-up compliance increases the risk of treatment discontinuation and possible relapse. Proactive alternative strategies need to be developed to reach these vulnerable populations.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0033350620302936


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in Quartermaster's Stores,



			
				Ditch said:
			
		

> Out in public buildings like the grocery store, Canadian Tire, Home Depot, I wear my civvie style neck gaiter/scarf.  I wear it to set an example for everyone else - I understand that the mask doesn’t protect me, I’m doing it for altruistic reasons to protect everyone “in case” I have COVID.  I will routinely go through an entire store and not see anyone else wearing a mask - this is why we haven’t beaten this disease - simple shit people, wear a damn mask - you don’t need to wait until it is legislated.



I wish there were more people with your attitude.


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I meant to reply to this but didn't do it right away, and then forgot which sub forum this thread was in! Took me a while to find it.
> 
> I'm not sure that actual societal collapse was specifically predicted, but there was an awful lot of very exaggerated/extreme rhetoric coming from the media in the early days, designed to make people agree that lockdowns were the one and only way to combat this. I am still not convinced that it would have ever been as bad as they were saying.
> 
> The hospitals have been empty. Now people will say that is because of lockdown, but if the logic is lockdown is needed to prevent total collapse of the medical system, you would think that even with lockdown you'd still have large numbers. That the lockdown emptied out the hospitals suggests it was a more extreme measure than was necessary and therefore we had economic damage done that was not necessary.
> 
> Time will tell. I've always argued from the beginning that we traded long term pain (long term economic consequences and an overall higher death toll) for short term gain (fewer deaths now from COVID-19). It will take years for this to play out but already we are seeing increases in overdoses for example and I believe this will continue to grow as we reap what has been sown with the lockdown and massive government debt.



So, the worst case scenario models were and are based on if you do nothing.  I don%u2019t think a single country has tried that route.  But many countries that tried to keep their economies open and limiting their response saw increases in death and even worse economic decline. 

We do have enough comparative examples to see what effect the responses have had. 

COVID a is now the number 3 killer in the US.  Surpassing even accidental deaths.  That in itself is cause for concern about how to respond or not respond.  Their economy is also getting hit harder than other developed wealthy nations.  

People talk like we were locked down in our homes and couldn%u2019t leave.  Not quite the case.  And the economy didn%u2019t completely shut down.  Some segments did yes but a lot did not and kept going and in some cases are thriving.  

As to the psychological impact, time will tell but I agree with you that it might take years to see the toll this takes on us especially our youth.  Another issue worldwide are women exiting the workforce to stay home to school their kids, etc.  That may have the largest impact on our economy.  


Edit: in a coincidence CBC has an article about a psychologist who wrote a book on the psychology of pandemics.  Apparently everything we are seeing now has happened before in other pandemics.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup/how-has-the-covid-19-pandemic-changed-you-1.5676444/covid-related-anxiety-is-common-but-many-are-learning-to-overcome-it-says-psychologist-1.5680245

Quote %u201C It is messy and complicated, but just about everything we're seeing in this pandemic has been seen or observed in previous pandemics or outbreaks too, including post-traumatic stress disorder.%u201D

He posits at the end of the article that we may actually come out of this more resilient and altruistic.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I meant to reply to this but didn't do it right away, and then forgot which sub forum this thread was in! Took me a while to find it.
> 
> I'm not sure that actual societal collapse was specifically predicted, but there was an awful lot of very exaggerated/extreme rhetoric coming from the media in the early days, designed to make people agree that lockdowns were the one and only way to combat this. I am still not convinced that it would have ever been as bad as they were saying.
> 
> The hospitals have been empty. Now people will say that is because of lockdown, but if the logic is lockdown is needed to prevent total collapse of the medical system, you would think that even with lockdown you'd still have large numbers. That the lockdown emptied out the hospitals suggests it was a more extreme measure than was necessary and therefore we had economic damage done that was not necessary.
> 
> Time will tell. I've always argued from the beginning that we traded long term pain (long term economic consequences and an overall higher death toll) for short term gain (fewer deaths now from COVID-19). It will take years for this to play out but already we are seeing increases in overdoses for example and I believe this will continue to grow as we reap what has been sown with the lockdown and massive government debt.



I'm of the same opinion.  I feel like half of society has become full blown hypochondriacs as a result of COVID. The mask police are just a symptom of this.

I wear a mask when it's mandated because I do respect people's right to decide what they accept in their business but otherwise I don't.  If I get COVID, crap happens!  

I also work on a 25 year old ship breathing in crappy mouldy air that is apparently "G2G" despite plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary.  

Certainly it's clear that old people don't do well with COVID and we should do more to protect them and fix LTC homes but old people don't do well with any illness really.  That's what happens when you get old.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> So, the worst case scenario models were and are based on if you do nothing.  I don’t think a single country has tried that route.  But many countries that tried to keep their economies open and limiting their response saw increases in death and even worse economic decline.
> 
> We do have enough comparative examples to see what effect the responses have had.
> 
> COVID a is now the number 3 killer in the US.  Surpassing even accidental deaths.  That in itself is cause for concern about how to respond or not respond.  Their economy is also getting hit harder than other developed wealthy nations.
> 
> People talk like we were locked down in our homes and couldn’t leave.  Not quite the case.  And the economy didn’t completely shut down.  Some segments did yes but a lot did not and kept going and in some cases are thriving.
> 
> As to the psychological impact, time will tell but I agree with you that it might take years to see the toll this takes on us especially our youth.  Another issue worldwide are women exiting the workforce to stay home to school their kids, etc.  That may have the largest impact on our economy.



Countries that remained partially open would always see a worse death rate, that's a given.  Show me evidence where your other statement is correct though?  

A Country that stays open will see a worse "initial death rate" the problem with this methodology is you are looking at COVID in isolation and not merely including it as one factor and not the totality of deaths.

We shall see in two or three years who had the best strategy.  It's impossible to note it now.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Countries that remained partially open would always see a worse death rate, that's a given.  Show me evidence where your other statement is correct though?



Sure.


We are starting to see the effects of reopening too early in the US

https://conference-board.org/research/us-forecast

Sweeden, didn’t do much for its economy. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/sweden-didn-t-lock-down-but-economy-to-plunge-anyway-1.4973195

A simple google search will show you:

Canada’s 2nd quarter GDP dropped 12%
The US dropped 32%

We have stricter and more mandated measures than the US (who have reopened more than us) so what accounts for that disparity?  Our death rate and case rate is lower than theirs and their economy still contracted at 3x the rate as ours.

I’m happy to be schooled on this though because I am far from an economic expert on any of this.

Other stuff you can peruse.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/04/19/us-economic-growth-will-be-worse-than-eu-and-china/#305dfe7734f8

https://fortune.com/2020/05/11/us-economy-reopen/

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/493521-the-economic-costs-of-reopening-too-soon


----------



## dapaterson

Remius said:
			
		

> I’m happy to be schooled on this though because I am far from an economic expert on any of this.



There's a reason Economics is called the dismal science... my impression is that the less of an economic expert you are, the more likely you are to have a PhD in economics.


----------



## stellarpanther

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I'm of the same opinion.  I feel like half of society has become full blown hypochondriacs as a result of COVID. The mask police are just a symptom of this.
> 
> I wear a mask when it's mandated because I do respect people's right to decide what they accept in their business but otherwise I don't.  If I get COVID, crap happens!



I don't understand why you would say half of society has become full blown hypochondriacs when the reason they are doing what they are doing is because that is what the health experts are saying people should do.  Some people are simply following medical advice.  If the Police and By-Law officers would do their job a bit better and actively enforce it then we might not need mask police.  They only seem to react if people call them.

As far as your comment about if you get COVID, crap happens, that's fine if you are willing to except the risk but that doesn't mean other people have the same attitude about it.  Many people want to do to what they can to prevent it.


----------



## Remius

Wearing the mask isn't about you getting it, it's about you not spreading it. 

I'm not sure why people don't get that.


----------



## Remius

Speaking of masks.

This is good news story and a win for Ford and Trudeau.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trudeau-ford-to-unveil-deal-to-produce-n95-masks-at-brockville-ont-3m-plant-1.5073486


----------



## Donald H

The question on whether or not Trump pushed for enough precautions has already been answered. The US will be well over 200,000 deaths before their election and will likely be closing in on 300,000.

That's them, then there's us.

All the suggestions of taking more and extreme precautions, or ignoring precautions are most likely going to be moot by November because the question on what was the right approach will likely be answered by then. 

In America there's little doubt that it's now a political issue and there's no mistaking which side chooses precautions ans which side chooses the economy over more precautions. We can do that in Canada too! 

Personally, I'm willing to bite the bullet on the economy and go for more stringent precautions.


----------



## stellarpanther

Donald H said:
			
		

> Personally, I'm willing to bite the bullet on the economy and go for more stringent precautions.



I know it's easy for me to sit here and say this when I have a fairly secure job, I agree with you on this one hundred percent.  The economy will come back once this virus is eradicated.  Like all plagues/pandemics, eventually this will come to and end.  

_- Staff edit to fix error with quote box._


----------



## Donald H

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I know it's easy for me to sit here and say this when I have a fairly secure job, I agree with you on this one hundred percent.  The economy will come back once this virus is eradicated.  Like all plagues/pandemics, eventually this will come to and end.
> 
> _- Staff edit to fix error with quote box._



Good for you! You're willing to eat crow and I am too. There won't be any shortage to go around, regardless of which way it goes. Biden drew the battle lines last night on which way the Dems are going. I expect that Trump is going to do the same in his convention and even up the ante.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> Wearing the mask isn't about you getting it, it's about you not spreading it.
> 
> I'm not sure why people don't get that.



Never said it wasn't. If I don't have COVID though, there is  no need to wear one.  Masks aren't some sort of panacea everyone seems to think they are.  

It's one factor amongst Many Many Many factors.  Government's will try and create all this legislation though, some of it being incredibly draconian, but you can't legislate your way out of a pandemic, you gotta let it run it's course.

Look at Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.  Some imposed incredibly draconian measures, all are basically experiencing reoccurrences of the virus outbreak inspite of these measures.  The virus must run through the population to the extent that it can no longer spread exponentially.  



			
				Donald H said:
			
		

> The question on whether or not Trump pushed for enough precautions has already been answered. The US will be well over 200,000 deaths before their election and will likely be closing in on 300,000.
> 
> That's them, then there's us.
> 
> All the suggestions of taking more and extreme precautions, or ignoring precautions are most likely going to be moot by November because the question on what was the right approach will likely be answered by then.
> 
> In America there's little doubt that it's now a political issue and there's no mistaking which side chooses precautions ans which side chooses the economy over more precautions. We can do that in Canada too!
> 
> Personally, I'm willing to bite the bullet on the economy and go for more stringent precautions.



You realize those death numbers are meaningless when taken out of context.  The American death rate is roughly twice that of Canada's when accounting for population; however, there is also the small question of how deaths are counted.  

All depends if you believe it or not but it's been stated by a number of doctors that US Hospitals get access to increased federal funding if they have COVID-19 patients so they have reason to "cook the books so to speak" and we all know the American Medical and Pharmaceutical Industries (which is what they are in the USA) are  bastions of altruism  :rofl:. 

This pandemic is so political now though, it's impossible to know the real truth.  On one hand you have Countries like China and Russia saying no deaths are COVID related then on the other hand you have Americans saying every death is a COVID death while also saying protestors don't spread COVID   rly:

I socially distance myself, I take reasonable precautions like washing my hands, being careful not to share things with others, etc. but I'm not about to go all Fallout 4 on this thing.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Never said it wasn't. If I don't have COVID though, there is  no need to wear one.  Masks aren't some sort of panacea everyone seems to think they are.



Except if you are asymptomatic. Which apparently is a thing.  

Who thinks masks are some sort of panacea?  It’s just one easy part that everyone can play. 

Masks are also not a very complicated or particularly difficult concept. Yet some people make it a Hill to die on.  Litterally in some cases.


----------



## Donald H

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Never said it wasn't. If I don't have COVID though, there is  no need to wear one.  Masks aren't some sort of panacea everyone seems to think they are.
> 
> 
> Look at Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.  Some imposed incredibly draconian measures, all are basically experiencing reoccurrences of the virus outbreak inspite of these measures.  The virus must run through the population to the extent that it can no longer spread exponentially.
> 
> You realize those death numbers are meaningless when taken out of context.  The American death rate is roughly twice that of Canada's when accounting for population; however, there is also the small question of how deaths are counted.
> 
> All depends if you believe it or not but it's been stated by a number of doctors that US Hospitals get access to increased federal funding if they have COVID-19 patients so they have reason to "cook the books so to speak" and we all know the American Medical and Pharmaceutical Industries (which is what they are in the USA) are  bastions of altruism  :rofl:.
> 
> This pandemic is so political now though, it's impossible to know the real truth.  On one hand you have Countries like China and Russia saying no deaths are COVID related then on the other hand you have Americans saying every death is a COVID death while also saying protestors don't spread COVID   rly:
> 
> I socially distance myself, I take reasonable precautions like washing my hands, being careful not to share things with others, etc. but I'm not about to go all Fallout 4 on this thing.



Everything you say makes perfect sense right now in my opinion Humphrey.

But I still have to ask the question, if for no other reason than to keep this topic alive and well.

Suppose the US death toll is 300,000 by November? Or suppose it's 400,000, 500,000, 600,000 or in the seven digit territory? I'm just saying that the 300,000 number has me convinced. 



> It's one factor amongst Many Many Many factors.  Government's will try and create all this legislation though, some of it being incredibly draconian, but you can't legislate your way out of a pandemic, you gotta let it run it's course.



And that's the part of what you said that I disagree with, but in a bit more nuanced way. If we are to believe the success rates of some of the Asian countries, they've done just that.

edit: In all fairness, I'll bring up the issue of population density because you didn't.


----------



## stellarpanther

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Never said it wasn't. If I don't have COVID though, there is  no need to wear one.  Masks aren't some sort of panacea everyone seems to think they are.
> 
> I socially distance myself, I take reasonable precautions like washing my hands, being careful not to share things with others, etc. but I'm not about to go all Fallout 4 on this thing.



Considering half of the people with COVID-19 are believed  Asymptomatic, how do you know you don't have it?  I assume you are not being tested daily.

How is it you equate wearing a mask in public to going all Fallout 4?  It's a simple mask, why are people making such a big deal about this?  I'm not sure about where you live but it is against the law to smoke in a park in Ottawa, would you make a baulk at that as well?  I just wish I understood what it is that is causing some people to react the way they are to masks when they don't react at all to other restrictions.


----------



## shawn5o

I wonder if this discovery will help beat the 'rona?


*Scientists find COVID-19 coronavirus variant linked to milder infections*

New variant of SARS-CoV-2, missing part of original genome, also elicited a more robust immune response

Thomson Reuters • Posted: Aug 21, 2020 8:05 AM ET
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/milder-coronavirus-1.5694855

Researchers in Singapore have discovered a new variant of the COVID-19 coronavirus that causes milder infections, according to a study published in The Lancet medical journal this week. The study showed that COVID-19 patients infected with a new variant of SARS-CoV-2 had better clinical outcomes, including a lower proportion developing low blood oxygen or requiring intensive care.

The study also showed the variant, which has a large deletion in a part of its genome, elicited a more robust immune response.

The study involved researchers from various Singapore institutions, including the National Centre for Infectious Diseases (NCID), the Duke-NUS Medical School and the Agency for Science, Technology and Research. "These studies provide the first convincing data showing that an observed genetic change (mutation) in SARS-CoV-2 has affected the severity of disease in patients," said Gavin Smith at Duke-NUS.

*Implications for vaccine development, treatments*

The scientists said the findings had implications for vaccine development and treatments for COVID-19. The variant, which likely came from Wuhan, China, was detected in a cluster of infections that occurred from January to March 2020. In Singapore, the virus was transmitted from person-to-person across several clusters before being contained. An expert told Reuters this week that mutations in viruses may be "a good thing." Viruses tend to become less virulent as they mutate so as to infect more people but not to kill them as they depend on the host for food and shelter, according to Paul Tambyah at Singapore's National University Hospital.

However, at least some scientists expressed skepticism about the discovery. Dr. Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Toronto, suggested in a tweet that the sample size may be too small, and the findings have no immediate practical implications.


----------



## suffolkowner

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> If the Police and By-Law officers would do their job a bit better and actively enforce it then we might not need mask police.  They only seem to react if people call them.



So if the mask police do their job we won't need the mask police?



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not sure about where you live but it is against the law to smoke in a park in Ottawa, would you make a baulk at that as well?



Yes



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's a simple mask, why are people making such a big deal about this?   I just wish I understood what it is that is causing some people to react the way they are to masks when they don't react at all to other restrictions.



Some people don't like doing what their told. 
Some people might not like how easy it has been to get people to fall in line.
Some people might just be reacting to the illogical nature of some of the restrictions


----------



## PMedMoe

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Some people don't like doing what their they're told.



So, stop wearing seatbelts, cease stopping at red lights, don't file your income tax.  The list goes on....   :




			
				suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Some people might not like how easy it has been to get people to fall in line.



Are you one of those people who think this was all planned??


----------



## suffolkowner

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> So, stop wearing seatbelts, cease stopping at red lights, don't file your income tax.  The list goes on....   :



Stellarpanther wondered why some people were acting/reacting the way they were. I gave some suggestions, perhaps you have others?



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Are you one of those people who think this was all planned??



I am going to assume I understand this question and answer no


----------



## PMedMoe

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Stellarpanther wondered why some people were acting/reacting the way they were. I gave some suggestions, perhaps you have others?



People are just jerks?  
People are just stubborn?
People are too obtuse to look at the science?

:dunno:


----------



## Remius

In other news.  About that motorcycle rally...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/index.html


----------



## suffolkowner

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> People are just jerks?
> People are just stubborn?
> People are too obtuse to look at the science?
> 
> :dunno:



People being too obtuse to look at the science is not the same as being too obtuse to follow the science or a public policy initiative


----------



## PMedMoe

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> People being too obtuse to look at the science is not the same as being too obtuse to follow the science or a public policy initiative



Agreed. And that just adds another reason why people don't want to wear masks.

Just let me clarify (if it wasn't obvious from my response), I am not an anti-masker. As has been said, it's the simplest thing one can do to protect others, particularly those who are vulnerable.


----------



## suffolkowner

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Agreed. And that just adds another reason why people don't want to wear masks.
> 
> Just let me clarify (if it wasn't obvious from my response), I am not an anti-masker. As has been said, it's the simplest thing one can do to protect others, particularly those who are vulnerable.



I too am not an anti-masker eventhough I am exempt. But it does not stop me from questioning the absurdity of 

having to wear a mask to go into a restaurant for the two minute transition from street to table but not have to wear one for the 30 minutes to one hour of eating. 

Or that so many businesses were forced to close but not the LCBO/Beer Store or Lotteries eventhough they were conducting the same type of transactions

Or that one day with large daily infection increases and I do not need a mask and two months later the same task requires one

Or how about needing a mask in a stage 3 grocery store but i can drive a mile over a imaginary border and don't

Or how about when I go to the grocery store I am handed a "disinfected" shopping cart to enter the store and then after I have already touched it I am directed to sanitize my hands

I could literally list dozens more examples of incongruencies 

Anyways here is a fairly recent article on the potential for airborne droplet transmission

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0011960


----------



## PMedMoe

I agree that there is many inconsistencies, however, that is a result of directives being regional and not provincial or even federal.


----------



## BDTyre

My work requires us to wear masks in certain situations and at certain times (the rules are different for where I work vs. our retail side). One of the rules is that you must wear a mask when entering and exiting the building. Generally, there are four of us in the division I work in. We have our own separate entrance vs. the rest of the company I work for. All four of us all arrive at different times. I'm not within thirty feet of someone let alone six feet when I arrive at work. Yet I'm still required to wear a mask from my car to my desk. It takes me one minute or less and I'm almost always alone. Is it ridiculous? Yes. Is it necessary? No. Do I still do it? Yes. Because that's what my company requires, and even though common sense and science would indicate wearing a mask in this situation provides no benefit, it's really not worth the trouble it would cause to not do it.


----------



## stellarpanther

While I'm as pro-mask as a person can get, I will agree that some of the things being put out just don't make any sense.  One example that comes to mind is an article I read from one city in Ontario (can't recall which one) that said students in grades 4-12 will be required to wear masks while in school and on buses etc.  The kids in grade school will spend all of their time with only their classmates and not interact with other students.  The part that made absolutely no sense was that during their 1 hour lunch and recess, they won't need to wear the masks and will have the opportunity to interact without restrictions.  I had to read it twice to make sure I understood it.  So basically this school is thinking the virus will not affect anyone during that hour.  They will eat their lunch at their desks that will not be spaced out.  If they can do that, then what is the point of using masks during class?  I hope I explained this clearly.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> While I'm as pro-mask as a person can get, I will agree that some of the things being put out just don't make any sense.  One example that comes to mind is an article I read from one city in Ontario (can't recall which one) that said students in grades 4-12 will be required to wear masks while in school and on buses etc.  The kids in grade school will spend all of their time with only their classmates and not interact with other students.  The part that made absolutely no sense was that during their 1 hour lunch and recess, they won't need to wear the masks and will have the opportunity to interact without restrictions.  I had to read it twice to make sure I understood it.  So basically this school is thinking the virus will not affect anyone during that hour.  They will eat their lunch at their desks that will not be spaced out.  If they can do that, then what is the point of using masks during class?  I hope I explained this clearly.



Some excerpts from the Ontario guidelines.  While nothing is perfect, it does seem that most situations have been considered.  Without a reference to the article that you can't completely recall, commenting on how someone reported possible adaptations in a particular jurisdiction is difficult.  Using a now oft repeated phrase, it will now be "the new normal" that educators will have to make, and follow, detailed plans - not only teaching plans, but coordinated movement and spacing plans.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/guide-reopening-ontarios-schools#section-4


> Masks
> Students
> Students in Grades 4 to 12 will be required to wear non-medical or cloth masks indoors in school, including in hallways and during classes. Outdoor times like recess can be used as opportunities to provide students with breaks from wearing masks within their cohorts.
> . . .
> 
> Cohorting
> Cohorting refers to the practice of keeping students together in a small group throughout their school day, with limited exposure to multiple teachers or a wide variety of classmates.
> 
> This practice limits the number of other students that a single student is in contact with.  This practice will also facilitate contact tracing should that be necessary.
> 
> School boards will be expected to implement adapted timetables at both the elementary and secondary levels that support cohorting of students to the greatest extent possible.
> 
> An elementary student should be cohorted with their classmates and their homeroom teacher, with limited contact with other subject teachers for classes such as French as a second language/Anglais, the arts and physical education.
> 
> A secondary student should be limited to approximately 100 student contacts. Boards are also encouraged to keep in-person cohorts to two classes, or with their grade, depending on the size of their high school. As discussed in the Secondary Schools section, this may require adapted timetables and a study hall or remote delivery of some classes in Grades 11 and 12 to limit the size of the cohort a secondary student is exposed to.
> 
> The ministry has been engaged in discussions with trustee associations, school boards and teacher federations on student timetables that achieve the goals of appropriate pedagogy, cohorting and respect for collective agreements.
> 
> Distancing
> As much distancing as possible between students, between students and staff and between staff members should always be promoted. Physical distancing measures are to be supplemented with other public health measures supported by health and safety strategies, such as screening, adapted school environment, cohorting, hand hygiene, enhanced cleaning and masking.
> 
> Classroom sizes in Ontario schools vary in size, but schools are encouraged to remove unnecessary furniture and place desks with as much distancing as possible, and to allow teachers as much teaching space as possible. Desks should face forward rather than in circles or groupings.
> 
> Schools are encouraged to locate larger classes in larger spaces and to use all available space in a school, including gyms and libraries.
> . . .
> 
> Bathrooms
> Schools should ensure that bathrooms are cleaned frequently and that there is an adequate supply of soap at all times. Paper hand towels are preferable to hand dryers.
> 
> Schools should timetable bathroom breaks in the school day to stagger use of bathrooms and should monitor physical distancing. Signage should be posted that indicates the maximum number of people simultaneously using the bathroom at any given point. Individual students should not be prevented from accessing bathrooms as needed.
> . . .
> 
> Lunch/food service
> To the greatest extent possible, students should be encouraged to eat lunch in their classroom with their cohort to ensure chances of contact and transmission are minimized.
> 
> Lunch times should be staggered to allow students to wash hands before eating, without creating congestion in washrooms or handwashing stations.
> 
> If weather permits, consideration could be given to having lunch breaks outside.


----------



## OceanBonfire

2 members test positive:



> *2 Canadian Armed Forces members test positive for COVID-19 after stop in N.L.*
> 
> Two Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members returning from the middle east aboard a military flight that stopped in Newfoundland and Labrador have tested positive for the novel coronavirus.
> 
> As a result, some members of 5 Wing Goose Bay, located in Happy-Valley Goose Bay, N.L., are now self-isolating as a precautionary measure.
> 
> The two CAF members were on board an aircraft bringing 35 personnel back to Canada from deployment on Operation Impact, which has as many as 850 Canadians deployed in Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Kuwait.
> 
> The flight stopped overnight at 5 Wing Goose Bay on Aug. 24, and all aircrew and passengers were transported to accommodations on the base where they were isolated from the rest of the base and local community, Canadian Armed Forces said in a statement to Global News.
> 
> The two CAF members who tested positive are now self-isolating at CFB Trenton in Trenton, Ontario.
> 
> The other members and the pilots of the vessel have been tested and are quarantining at CFB Trenton or at home.
> 
> The statement from the CAF said that personnel from 5 Wing Goose Bay, including bus drivers and personnel delivering meals, complied with public health protocols, wore masks and maintained appropriate physical distancing.
> 
> The accommodations at 5 Wing Goose Bay were sanitized after the aircrew and passengers left the base.
> 
> "The risk of exposure to 5 Wing personnel is assessed as low," the statement reads.
> 
> The aircraft that transported the 35 passengers has also been professionally sanitized.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7305638/covid19-nl-caf-goosebay-coronavirus/


----------



## FJAG

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Some excerpts from the Ontario guidelines.  While nothing is perfect, it does seem that most situations have been considered.  Without a reference to the article that you can't completely recall, commenting on how someone reported possible adaptations in a particular jurisdiction is difficult.  Using a now oft repeated phrase, it will now be "the new normal" that educators will have to make, and follow, detailed plans - not only teaching plans, but coordinated movement and spacing plans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cohorting
> Cohorting refers to the practice of keeping students together in a small group throughout their school day, with limited exposure to multiple teachers or a wide variety of classmates.
Click to expand...


Not to get pedantic here, but cohort is a Roman Army term that referred to formation of some 480 - 960 men (depending on whether or not it was the First Cohort or not). 

Wouldn't it be better if we called them a contubernium (tent group of eight) or at most a centuria (ten Contuberia) when we're discussing a small group?

I like my historical accuracy.  ;D

And my  :sarcasm:

 :cheers:


----------



## daftandbarmy

Look out, HQ staff! 

Low demand for UK office workers reveals ‘asymmetric recovery’ 

Data shows rise in transport, healthcare and construction jobs while ‘white-collar roles’ lag behind


Demand for office workers in the UK is lagging behind other types of work, according to data that suggests the labour market is undergoing an “asymmetric recovery” after the near-total freeze in hiring during the coronavirus lockdown.
The proportion of workers with new jobs in industries that mainly employ people in so-called white-collar roles – such as media, software and finance – has lagged behind other sectors despite the gradual return to workplaces, according to data from LinkedIn, the work-focused social network owned by Microsoft.

The data suggests that hiring has risen steeply in some sectors that may be less affected by the pandemic. The new job rate for workers in transport and logistics has risen by 18% year on year, and delivery drivers were among the most popular new jobs, possibly reflecting the boom in online shopping during lockdown. New jobs in healthcare and construction are up by 12% and 9% respectively.

However, the rate of new jobs in software or IT companies is down by 9% year on year, while the finance and legal jobs rate is down by almost a tenth each. The rate of new jobs in media is 17% lower than last year.

The leisure industries are among the worst affected by the Covid-19 crisis, reflecting the continued restrictions on large gatherings of people. New jobs for entertainment workers have dipped by 30%, and the rate of new jobs for recreation and travel workers is down 31%.

Many economists have predicted that unemployment is due to rise sharply towards the end of the year after the government withdraws wage support in November. Forecasters on average predict that UK unemployment will hit 8.3% in the fourth quarter, according to estimates collected by the Treasury. That compares with 3.9% unemployment reported in June.

The LinkedIn data, shared with the Guardian, suggests that the total number of people reporting new jobs in the UK is 6% lower than the same point last year, compared to 49% lower in mid-May. The social network compares the number of members who added a new job beginning this month with the year before.

Separate data from the jobs website Indeed suggests that new job postings are still far below last year’s levels, although improving steadily. By 21 August the seven-day moving average of new job postings on the site is still down 53% compared with 2019.

Mariano Mamertino, an economist covering Europe at LinkedIn, said the data showed a steady improvement in the UK jobs market since the coronavirus lockdown froze hiring. However, he noted that there was “an asymmetric recovery across industries”.

He said: “Industries like finance, legal, software and IT, corporate services and media and communications – which have largely white-collar roles – are facing stronger headwinds and are all below the national hiring rate.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/31/low-demand-for-uk-office-workers-media-software-finance-reveals-asymmetric-recovery


----------



## daftandbarmy

Public Sector Employees - Big brother might be watching you.... and you probably won't like it:



New digital surveillance technology is available to monitor remote workers. Public sector employers should expect broad resistance to these tools.

The COVID-19 pandemic has dramatically accelerated a trend toward remote work in many parts of the public sector. The federal government issued guidelines on March 15 urging employees to work remotely, whenever and wherever possible, and similar protocols were established around the same time across all levels of governments in Canada. The immediate and massive whole-of-government shift to remote work has introduced uncertainty with respect to the security of data, the management of teams and individual productivity and mental health.

With so many public sector employees working from home now and new guidelines from the federal Treasury Board that encourage it going forward, there are pressing demands on human resources management, in particular in the areas of manager-employee relationships, work assignments, productivity and accountability. One critical piece of this equation relates to work surveillance and the technological advancements that have made digital work surveillance in the context of remote working not only more possible but also potentially more fraught with privacy concerns. These concerns must be balanced with the legitimate objectives of public sector employers in ensuring a productive workforce on behalf of Canadians.

Employers must be very careful about work surveillance as the technological capacity advances and allows it to be conducted in a constant and sweeping manner. The ability to do it — and at relatively low cost— does not mean public sector employers should do it, or that it is the best way to promote high performance among employees. Certainly the world of work is changing dramatically, but managers must behave responsibly as we all adapt.

https://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazines/august-2020/covid-19-and-the-future-of-public-sector-work-surveillance/


----------



## Brad Sallows

If you're interested in vaccines, Derek Lowe's Coronavirus Vaccine Roundup, Early September.  What's in development, by whom, and how they are progressing.


----------



## CBH99

Thank You for posting that Brad.   :nod:

Trying to get verified and accurate information on what vaccines are being produced by whom, and at what stage of development they are in, has been a nightmare.

I tried to google the information a few times, but promptly gave up.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Trying to get verified and accurate information on what vaccines are being produced by whom, and at what stage of development they are in, has been a nightmare.
> 
> I tried to google the information a few times, but promptly gave up.



I googled "covid vaccines" and the first item was this  https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/draft-landscape-of-covid-19-candidate-vaccines  

Downloading the document gives all the information needed with links to study registrations and preliminary study reports.  Unless one counts themselves among the uninformed unwashed who would ignore anything coming from the WHO.


----------



## Donald H

Does anybody think that there will be a vaccine ready and available for distribution on Novermber 1? A vaccine that won't be used and will be found to be useless on November 4 - 30th?


----------



## suffolkowner

Donald H said:
			
		

> Does anybody think that there will be a vaccine ready and available for distribution on Novermber 1? A vaccine that won't be used and will be found to be useless on November 4 - 30th?



Seems super quick/hopeful to me. Vaccine development is pretty advanced compared to the past I think due to RT-PCR and the work done on SARS-CoV-1. It's interesting how so few of the vaccine trials listed were from the "old" ways of live, attenuated and virus particle. For coronavirus updates I like to check in on these sites once a month

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

https://www.sciencemag.org/collections/coronavirus


----------



## daftandbarmy

Donald H said:
			
		

> Does anybody think that there will be a vaccine ready and available for distribution on Novermber 1? A vaccine that won't be used and will be found to be useless on November 4 - 30th?



No. I strongly doubt it. 

So do most of the regulatory level 'Health People' out there, viz: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-covid19-restrictions-spread-model-1.5650296

We're in this for the long haul, and are probably going to be looking at about a year or so of ongoing confusion. Which we should prepare for mentally, and/or otherwise, of course.


----------



## Donald H

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Seems super quick/hopeful to me.



Agreed! That's why I included the second sentence.  rly:


----------



## suffolkowner

This editorial from the above Science link describes the importance of finishing stage 3 trials and the importance played on safety when one is talking about infecting normal healthy people

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6506/885


----------



## Donald H

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> This editorial from the above Science link describes the importance of finishing stage 3 trials and the importance played on safety when one is talking about infecting normal healthy people
> 
> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6506/885



I'm thinking that politics will play a more bigger role in this than science. Both sides are much more concerned with getting a vaccine by November 1/not getting it. 

 :cheers:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> People being too obtuse to look at the science is not the same as being too obtuse to follow the science or a public policy initiative



Problem is that Public Health Officials come across as not entirely trustworthy. Likely due to the fact that a public health official worries about the population at large, whereas your family doctor worries about your health. Telling the public that only 5% of you dying is great news is not likely to come across well, particularly if the news shows real life examples of that 5%, then the other 95% start to identify with the 5 % and wonder if they are part of that number. 

Example I think about, the Public Health officials discouraging the mass purchase/use of masks early on, was likley due to the realization that Hospital boards and health officials had botched up their planning and had no where near enough supplies to last and the advice was altered to give them time to acquire stock. Needless to say my time in government has made me quite cynical.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*Military commanders asks troops to use COVID-19 app, says no privacy concerns *
OTTAWA — The commander of the Canadian Armed Forces is encouraging his troops to download the federal government's smartphone application for tracking potential exposure to COVID-19, saying he has no privacy or security concerns about the program.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/military-commanders-asks-troops-to-use-covid-19-app-says-no-privacy-concerns/ar-BB18Gkba



I expect an email next week asking for returns on how many troops have this installed and if they don't, a reason why not.
Returns NLT EOP.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Military commanders asks troops to use COVID-19 app, says no privacy concerns *
> OTTAWA — The commander of the Canadian Armed Forces is encouraging his troops to download the federal government's smartphone application for tracking potential exposure to COVID-19, saying he has no privacy or security concerns about the program.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/military-commanders-asks-troops-to-use-covid-19-app-says-no-privacy-concerns/ar-BB18Gkba
> 
> 
> 
> I expect an email next week asking for returns on how many troops have this installed and if they don't, a reason why not.
> Returns NLT EOP.



Just tell them you have it when you don't.  No way of actually verifying if you do.  Or.....

Download it but turn off its ability to access any of your data  ;D 

Or just get a burner phone. So many possibilities of things you can do if you are concerned about Government intrusion.

I'm not so much concerned about the Government spying on me as I am concerned with just General Incompetence with the handling of that data.


----------



## MJP

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Military commanders asks troops to use COVID-19 app, says no privacy concerns *
> OTTAWA — The commander of the Canadian Armed Forces is encouraging his troops to download the federal government's smartphone application for tracking potential exposure to COVID-19, saying he has no privacy or security concerns about the program.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/military-commanders-asks-troops-to-use-covid-19-app-says-no-privacy-concerns/ar-BB18Gkba
> 
> I expect an email next week asking for returns on how many troops have this installed and if they don't, a reason why not.
> Returns NLT EOP.



[X] Doubt



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Just tell them you have it when you don't.  No way of actually verifying if you do.  Or.....
> 
> Download it but turn off its ability to access any of your data  ;D
> 
> Or just get a burner phone. So many possibilities of things you can do if you are concerned about Government intrusion.
> 
> I'm not so much concerned about the Government spying on me as I am concerned with just General Incompetence with the handling of that data.



It is always this slippery slope conundrum that drives me batty though.  "Hey man install the RiTCAF App, or install this or that on your personal device". "Hey work from home forever". "What sign a CRA T2200 Declaration of Conditions of Employment form, no way man, you are compensated for that already"


----------



## MilEME09

As far as I am concerned if the CAF wants me to have an app, they better issue me a phone and a data plan. I have no issue with the R2MR app, but a tracking app, even ifvthey say no concern. I doubt it, I wanna no how vulnerable it is to hacking, and tracing.


----------



## dapaterson

The app's source code is completely available on GitHub.  Fill your boots.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The app's source code is completely available on GitHub.  Fill your boots.



Exactly my point and I agree with MJP on this being a slippery slope.  Besides, the past few years and a number of incidents have given me a healthy dose of skepticism concerning the intentions of this Government.

We are far removed from General Hillier's "detestable murderers and scumbags" slaying fighting force.


----------



## dapaterson

Hypothesis: COVID-19 is, primarily, a disease of the lining of blood vessels.

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/41/32/3038/5901158#.X1T5CvHoUN0.twitter


----------



## OceanBonfire

According to this hypothesis, the amount of virus someone is exposed to at the start of infection may determine the severity of their illness. Wearing masks could therefore reduce the infectious dose that the wearer is exposed to and, subsequently, the impact of the disease, as masks filter out some virus-containing droplets. Then population-wide mask wearing might ensure that a higher proportion of Covid-19 infections are asymptomatic.



> *Facial Masking for Covid-19 — Potential for “Variolation” as We Await a Vaccine*
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913


----------



## Jarnhamar

*RCMP mask policy for bearded front-line officers is discriminatory and 'shouldn't have happened,' Trudeau says*


> PM and Public Safety Minister Bill Blair say Mounties need to 'rectify' policy
> 
> The prime minister says the RCMP's policy requiring front-line officers to wear properly fitting N95 respirator masks amounts to discrimination and "shouldn't have happened," because the rule disfavours officers who keep beards for religious reasons.
> 
> Justin Trudeau said Friday he was "very disappointed" to hear about the policy which has seen a number of Mounties — including Sikh and Muslim officers — reassigned to desk duty during the pandemic.
> 
> "It is something that I certainly hope the RCMP rectifies quickly and it shouldn't have happened in the first place," Trudeau said during a news conference.





> The RCMP says it is different from other police forces because it is bound by the Canada Labour Code and Canada Occupational Health and Safety Regulations, which require a clean-shaven face for proper use of N95 masks.
> 
> *Spokesperson Cpl. Caroline Duval said in a statement Thursday the force does not have the authority to change the rules around personal protective equipment under current legislation.*



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-mask-beard-policy-1.5739053


Wonder who's going to win this one.


----------



## kev994

I wonder if the same applies to Air Mobility, we were ordered to remove beards for the duration of op laser in case we had to wear N95. Several of the wings now have containment units but as far as I know the rule wasn’t revoked.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *RCMP mask policy for bearded front-line officers is discriminatory and 'shouldn't have happened,' Trudeau says*
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-mask-beard-policy-1.5739053
> 
> 
> Wonder who's going to win this one.



It's gonna be interesting. The RCMP's version of 'BEARDFORGEN' happened within the last couple years, however a shaving restriction remained for members employed in roles where there might be a need to wear a gas mask- CBRNE units, front line in some places such as Ottawa, public order units (shave when required) etc. The new grooming standards were reverted in the spring when COVID blew up, the presumption being that any member on short notice could be subject to operational duties requiring proper fitting of an N95.

There are, broadly, three categories of Mounties as it pertains to beards: Those with religious exemptions, those with medical exemptions (the familiar shave chit), and those who simply prefer a beard. The religious exemption is the one that has made the news. Members with medical exemptions have also been 'benched'. Some are sucking it up and eating the razor burn in order to keep doing the job. The enforcement of 'everyone shaves' for those without a specific exemption has been very hit or miss, particularly with how much working form home there is- though so far as I can tell, front line members have had it applied consistently, it's more the members crew commanding a desk somewhere that in some cases are getting away with not shaving because their supervisors aren't fussed about it.

Now that this is in the media, as well as having the union involved at a high level, we'll see what comes of it. On any given day the RCMP has a lot of major issues being wrestled with... The spokesperson's comments sound like the intent is to kick the can down the road on OH&S grounds despite political pressure.


----------



## shawn5o

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *RCMP mask policy for bearded front-line officers is discriminatory and 'shouldn't have happened,' Trudeau says*
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-mask-beard-policy-1.5739053
> 
> 
> Wonder who's going to win this one.



Hi Jarnhamar

Maybe its a stupid question but is the queen's cowboys regs (ref: masks) similar to the CF? The navy has beards and, of course, pioneer pls. And if I recall correctly, several years ago, didn't a recruit (east indian or related) lose a court case over not-wearing his helmet at a grenade range?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's gonna be interesting. The RCMP's version of 'BEARDFORGEN' happened within the last couple years, however a shaving restriction remained for members employed in roles where there might be a need to wear a gas mask- CBRNE units, front line in some places such as Ottawa, public order units (shave when required) etc. The new grooming standards were reverted in the spring when COVID blew up, the presumption being that any member on short notice could be subject to operational duties requiring proper fitting of an N95.



Reading that article I felt that the PM and Bill Blair really threw the RCMP under the bus. To me the RCMP wasn't being discriminatory, they were following the rules. Saying other police forces figured out a way to make it work was the icing on the cake. I believe the police in Quebec (or Montreal?) have some weird rule where they only need a mask if they're speaking with someone for longer than 15 minutes.

Comments bu Cpl. Caroline Duval seem pretty open and closed. RCMP can't change their PP&E rules because of virtue signalling.


----------



## Jarnhamar

shawn5o said:
			
		

> Hi Jarnhamar
> 
> Maybe its a stupid question but is the queen's cowboys regs (ref: masks) similar to the CF? The navy has beards and, of course, pioneer pls. And if I recall correctly, several years ago, didn't a recruit (east indian or related) lose a court case over not-wearing his helmet at a grenade range?



I'm not 100% sure. I know in the past we've had issues with people trying to get around wearing a helmet or gas-mask which they lost. Not sure if it went to court.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:
			
		

> Sure.
> 
> 
> We are starting to see the effects of reopening too early in the US
> 
> https://conference-board.org/research/us-forecast
> 
> Sweeden, didn’t do much for its economy.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/sweden-didn-t-lock-down-but-economy-to-plunge-anyway-1.4973195
> 
> A simple google search will show you:
> 
> Canada’s 2nd quarter GDP dropped 12%
> The US dropped 32%
> 
> We have stricter and more mandated measures than the US (who have reopened more than us) so what accounts for that disparity?  Our death rate and case rate is lower than theirs and their economy still contracted at 3x the rate as ours.
> 
> I’m happy to be schooled on this though because I am far from an economic expert on any of this.
> 
> Other stuff you can peruse.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/04/19/us-economic-growth-will-be-worse-than-eu-and-china/#305dfe7734f8
> 
> https://fortune.com/2020/05/11/us-economy-reopen/
> 
> https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/economy-budget/493521-the-economic-costs-of-reopening-too-soon



If you read those numbers.. One thing to pay attention to is Annualized vs Non Annualized/Qaurterly

Americans have an Annualized number of 32%.

Canada has a Non Annualized number of 12%. Simply do the math.


----------



## Jarnhamar

*RCMP reverses mask policy for bearded officers*


> "Calls for service will be triaged from call centres, with bearded members being assigned to respond operationally only if the risk of exposure is low or multiple responding officers will be present," said the statement from chief human resources officer Gail Johnson. "Each case will be assessed on an individual basis."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-reverses-mask-policy-1.5746450


I'm sure that will be easy to facilitate.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *RCMP reverses mask policy for bearded officers*https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-reverses-mask-policy-1.5746450
> 
> 
> I'm sure that will be easy to facilitate.



And the lesson here is: Grow a beard because your imaginary friend in the sky wants you to, and reduce your risk of getting the covids. God is great.


----------



## lenaitch

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *RCMP mask policy for bearded front-line officers is discriminatory and 'shouldn't have happened,' Trudeau says*
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rcmp-mask-beard-policy-1.5739053
> 
> 
> Wonder who's going to win this one.



I think we all, unfortunately, know the answer.


----------



## Haggis

"It is something that I certainly hope the RCMP rectifies quickly and it shouldn't have happened in the first place," Trudeau said during a news conference.

This wouldn't be the first time the PM gave operational direction to the RCMP:

Remember VAdm Norman and the implied order to the RCMP that he would be charged.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Toronto’s top doctor urges province to enact tighter restrictions as city sees 323 new COVID-19 cases

https://123news.ca/torontos-top-doctor-urges-province-to-enact-tighter-restrictions-as-city-sees-323-new-covid-19-cases/



Ontario doctors sign letter to Premier advising against sweeping lockdowns

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontario-doctors-sign-letter-to-premier-advising-against-sweeping-lockdowns-1.5126193


----------



## Donald H

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Toronto%u2019s top doctor urges province to enact tighter restrictions as city sees 323 new COVID-19 cases
> 
> https://123news.ca/torontos-top-doctor-urges-province-to-enact-tighter-restrictions-as-city-sees-323-new-covid-19-cases/
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario doctors sign letter to Premier advising against sweeping lockdowns
> 
> https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontario-doctors-sign-letter-to-premier-advising-against-sweeping-lockdowns-1.5126193



More divisions and likely due to politics. It could be a much better world if everybody was on the same team in this fight against the virus.

There's a much wiser way forward and it's not Trump's or America's way. During the presidential debate Trump mocked Biden wearing a mask. *That was a political message to his supporters.* And then, unfortunately for Trump, he got his own personal message a few days later. So two possibilities for Trump now:
1. He'll be sick for a couple of weeks and come back to reverse his position of disregarding the taking of precautions.
2. He'll get well quickly and come back sending the message that the virus is no big deal.

Which will prove the point: *More divisions and likely due to politics.*


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Donald H said:
			
		

> More divisions and likely due to politics. It could be a much better world if everybody was on the same team in this fight against the virus.



The world is on the same team, but since we don't even know what sport we're playing, there can be no right and wrong rules for it for now, only guesslines...….as usual history will decide what they should have been.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Donald H said:
			
		

> More divisions and likely due to politics. It could be a much better world if everybody was on the same team in this fight against the virus.
> 
> There's a much wiser way forward and it's not Trump's or America's way. During the presidential debate Trump mocked Biden wearing a mask. *That was a political message to his supporters.* And then, unfortunately for Trump, he got his own personal message a few days later. So two possibilities for Trump now:
> 1. He'll be sick for a couple of weeks and come back to reverse his position of disregarding the taking of precautions.
> 2. He'll get well quickly and come back sending the message that the virus is no big deal.
> 
> Which will prove the point: *More divisions and likely due to politics.*



It's amazing how smoothly you turn two links about doctors in Ontario offering conflicting expert advice to political _Trump sucks _talking points


----------



## Donald H

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's amazing how smoothly you turn two links about doctors in Ontario offering conflicting expert advice to political _Trump sucks _talking points



It's my attempt to propel the topic along in a respectable way by voicing an opinion that could be out of sync with yours. 
But then you turn it into a personal attack against me and then make it out as me trolling? 

So 4 x 300 deduction isn't satisfying enough for you? Have a go at that and see if it makes you happier.
I'm not going to win here jarnhamar but I'll go down in flames having had played the game by the rules. How do you feel about the way you have played the game? 

cheers.


----------



## Jarnhamar

That's a lot to unpack Donald.  



			
				Donald H said:
			
		

> It's my attempt to propel the topic along in a respectable way by voicing an opinion that could be out of sync with yours.


That's super civil and sincere of you but I still doubt your intentions. I think you take every opportunity you can to propel the conversation back to Trump, politics and the US. 

[quote author=Donald H]But then you turn it into a personal attack against me and then make it out as me trolling?[/quote]
Ah yes, the aggrieved party. This isn't the first time you label criticism as personal attacks. Bit of a pattern there.  

Intentions not withstanding, you're _really good_ at constantly propelling the conversation back to the same topic you want to talk about. Trump, politics and the US.


[quote author=Donald H]
So 4 x 300 deduction isn't satisfying enough for you? Have a go at that and see if it makes you happier.
[/quote]

I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with the 300 point deductions comment. That I take some kind of enjoyment out of it? Not the case. I've given you +300 for comments in the past as well Donald. You'll notice I didn't hit you with -300 points for your (IMO) "off topic" and "in appropriate" comments today. I didn't want you to feel ganged up on as soon as you started posting again.

[quote author=Donald H]I'm not going to *win *here jarnhamar but I'll go down in flames having had *played the game *by the rules. How do you feel about the way you have *played the game?*[/quote]

Perhaps the issue here is that you're viewing posting here as some kind of game. 



I do know having doctors telling Ontarioians to enact tighter restrictions while not enacting stronger lockdowns can send a confusing message. The same way as Transport Canada is no longer allowing neck gaiters, bandanas, or face shields while traveling but cheap ass $5 facemasks are okay. What empirical evidence is that based off?


----------



## Donald H

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's a lot to unpack Donald.
> That's super civil and sincere of you but I still doubt your intentions. I think you take every opportunity you can to propel the conversation back to Trump, politics and the US.
> Ah yes, the aggrieved party. This isn't the first time you label criticism as personal attacks. Bit of a pattern there.
> 
> Intentions not withstanding, you're _really good_ at constantly propelling the conversation back to the same topic you want to talk about. Trump, politics and the US.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what you're implying with the 300 point deductions comment. That I take some kind of enjoyment out of it? Not the case. I've given you +300 for comments in the past as well Donald. You'll notice I didn't hit you with -300 points for your (IMO) "off topic" and "in appropriate" comments today. I didn't want you to feel ganged up on as soon as you started posting again.
> 
> Perhaps the issue here is that you're viewing posting here as some kind of game.
> 
> 
> 
> I do know having doctors telling Ontarioians to enact tighter restrictions while not enacting stronger lockdowns can send a confusing message. The same way as Transport Canada is no longer allowing neck gaiters, bandanas, or face shields while traveling but cheap *** $5 facemasks are okay. What empirical evidence is that based off?



I've noticed your higher level of intelligence right from the beginning Jarhamar but I never suspected that you would be the one with the feelings of guilt! 

It's o.k., it's what the military's protocol demands. It's just that it needs to forsake any veteran that has grown away from prescribed proper behaviour. 

cheers.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Covid-19 can survive for up to 9 hours on human skin compared to nearly 2 hours for Influenza A. Both were completely inactivated on human skin within 15 seconds by ethanol. The 9 hours survival state of Covid-19 on human skin may increase risk of contact transmission and supports hand hygiene. Covid-19 was more rapidly inactivated on skin surfaces than on other surfaces (stainless steel/glass/plastic). Published on Oxford University Press:



> *Survival of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza virus on the human skin: Importance of hand hygiene in COVID-19*
> 
> https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1517/5917611


----------



## OceanBonfire

To date there have been 222 positive cases across the entire CAF, at home and abroad, since the pandemic began. We currently have 24 active cases:



> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-armed-forces-pandemic-covid-1.5752788
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7381942/caf-covid-cases/
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/military-reports-more-than-220-canadian-troops-caught-covid-19-1.5135370


----------



## OceanBonfire

And there are people who believe in herd immunity for a virus we are still learning about:



> *First case of COVID-19 reinfection confirmed in the U.S.: study*
> 
> U.S. researchers have confirmed the country's first case of COVID-19 reinfection, indicating that exposure to the virus may not translate to total immunity.
> 
> The first study to confirm a case of coronavirus reinfection in the U.S. found evidence that an individual with no known immune disorders or underlying health conditions was infected with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in two separate instances.
> 
> According to a new case study, published Monday in The Lancet, the 25-year-old Nevada man was infected by two different SARS-CoV-2 variants within a 48-day timeframe, while testing negative between each infection.
> 
> Researchers reported that the patient%u2019s second infection was more severe, resulting in hospitalization with oxygen support.
> 
> Dr. Mark Pandori, director of the Nevada State Public Health Laboratory, said the findings indicate that previous exposure to COVID-19 does not mean an individual is guaranteed total immunity from the disease. However, he says more research is needed.
> 
> "There are still many unknowns about SARS-CoV-2 infections and the immune system's response, but our findings signal that a previous SARS-CoV-2 infection may not necessarily protect against future infection," Pandori said in the study.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/first-case-of-covid-19-reinfection-confirmed-in-the-u-s-study-1.5142116


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, as COVID comes around again for a victory lap, politicians are getting a little more worried about their futures...


The second wave will be harder than the first — because this time, we saw it coming

There's a lot of blame going around; how much will Canadians lay at the feet of their leaders?

Two weeks ago, Justin Trudeau told Canadians the country was at a "crossroads." On Friday, the prime minister said we were at a "tipping point."

Though the metaphors might now be mixed, it's at least clear that the pandemic situation in Canada has become only more precarious over the last two weeks.

"This second wave is really frustrating for a whole bunch of people who've been through this spring and who don't want to see this happen right now," Trudeau said. "A whole bunch of us would love to see this simply go away. Well, it'll only go away if we all do our part."

That's true. We will not awake one day to find that COVID-19 has magically disappeared. It will take a collective effort to mitigate the spread of the virus and, ultimately, eradicate it.

But with cases surging again, questions about who is or is not doing their part are unavoidable. And frustrations about a second wave will test the public's willingness to rally behind their leaders, as they did this spring.

If the second wave in Canada matches or surpasses the first wave — in terms of infections or economic hardship — it will be doubly frustrating because no one can claim to have been surprised by the possibility of a resurgence. The prospect of a second wave in the fall or winter was first discussed and worried over months ago.

If governments have any advantage now, it's that they should have a better understanding of how to handle health-related restrictions and the economic supports necessary to get people and businesses through those lockdowns. On that note, Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland rolled out a new rent subsidy for businesses on Friday that the government hopes will be an improvement on the rent assistance program it tried out in the spring.

Trudeau suggested Canadians can also draw on the knowledge that the tide of outbreaks can be stemmed. "I know this is discouraging, especially going into Thanksgiving weekend," he said. "But remember this — when things were at their bleakest during the first wave, Canadians pulled together and flattened the curve. We flattened the curve before, we can do it again."

But will Canadians be more tempted this time to blame their governments — or each other?

The federal Conservatives continue to insist that the new infections in Canada can be blamed on a lack of access to rapid testing for COVID-19 and that the federal government should have moved faster to ensure such tests were available.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pandemic-covid-trudeau-ford-freeland-1.5758129


----------



## Remius

A lot of the frustration I hear is being levelled more at the provincial level. Inconsistent messaging and plans.  

I touted Ford’s performance last spring but this fall he seems a bit scattered.


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:
			
		

> A lot of the frustration I hear is being levelled more at the provincial level. Inconsistent messaging and plans.
> 
> I touted Ford’s performance last spring but this fall he seems a bit scattered.



Well, since the WE charity is no longer a thing, maybe one of Trudeau's family will decide they need to earn an honest living and volunteer to lead Ontario to salvation.  ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Vancouver:

No need for mandatory masks in city-owned buildings, say top public health doctors

The two top medical health officers in Vancouver Coastal Health say there's no reason to make masks mandatory in city-operated spaces
The top two top medical health officers in Vancouver Coastal Health say that there’s no justification for making masks mandatory at city-owned buildings.

Dr. Patricia Daly, chief medical health officer, and Dr. Mark Lysyshyn, deputy chief medical health officer, say in a letter that making non-medical masks mandatory in Vancouver “could create barriers and risks for vulnerable people, such as a lack of access to essential services and the experience of further stigmatization and marginalization if they are unable to afford or wear such items.

“Given the excellent COVID-19 safety plans in place at city facilities, and the relatively low rate of COVID-19 infection in the local population, there is no justification for a mandatory non-medical mask policy in city of Vancouver facilities at this time and we strongly recommend that it not be pursued.”

The letter is addressed to Coun. Sarah Kirby-Yung, who plans to introduce a motion Oct. 20 to Vancouver city council to make masks mandatory inside city-owned facilities.

She said now is the time to introduce a mandatory mask motion because “we’re reopening a lot of city facilities that were closed immediately after the city declared a state of emergency. As we see things like libraries coming on stream or even (people) going into city hall for services, I think it’s time to put these best practices in place.”

In B.C., public health experts have encouraged using non-medical masks in public locations where people are not able to keep two metres away from people.

https://vancouversun.com/news/no-need-for-mandatory-masks-in-city-owned-buildings-say-top-public-health-doctors


----------



## dapaterson

A study out of Vancouver suggests a correlation between severity of infection and blood type.



> In a new study published Wednesday, researchers in Canada found that, among 95 critically ill COVID-19 patients, 84 percent of those with the blood types A and AB required mechanical ventilation compared to 61 percent of patients with type O or type B, CNN reports. The former group also remained in the intensive care unit for a median of 13.5 days, while the latter's median stay was nine days.



https://news.yahoo.com/blood-type-may-affect-severity-172000220.html


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:
			
		

> A lot of the frustration I hear is being levelled more at the provincial level. Inconsistent messaging and plans.
> 
> I touted Ford’s performance last spring but this fall he seems a bit scattered.



That's because they have no plan.  At least not one that is politically palatable to a large number of voters.    

Fact is the number of infected globally continues to grow exponentially everyday and is currently around 300k per day. Deaths; however, have remained relatively flat at around 5.5k per day, globally.  (See attached images source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

Around 0.8% of confirmed cases worldwide are now in critical condition and that number continues to go down everyday as more and more people are exposed to the virus.

We were told the initial lockdown was to not overwhelm hospitals but I think politicians all hoped it would go away and hope was their COA.  Now that the virus is endemic and the lockdowns proved ineffective in halting the spread of the disease, while also causing many disastrous second order effects, they are now in panic mode.

We are currently hovering somewhere between anger and depression on the Stages of Acceptance and I am anxiously awaiting for us to move to bargaining.

Eventually everyone will realize they have to move on with their lives.  The amount of fear in people is just unhealthy.


----------



## OldSolduer

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> That's because they have no plan.  At least not one that is politically palatable to a large number of voters.
> 
> Fact is the number of infected globally continues to grow exponentially everyday and is currently around 300k per day. Deaths; however, have remained relatively flat at around 5.5k per day, globally.  (See attached images source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
> 
> Around 0.8% of confirmed cases worldwide are now in critical condition and that number continues to go down everyday as more and more people are exposed to the virus.
> 
> We were told the initial lockdown was to not overwhelm hospitals but I think politicians all hoped it would go away and hope was their COA.  Now that the virus is endemic and the lockdowns proved ineffective in halting the spread of the disease, while also causing many disastrous second order effects, they are now in panic mode.
> 
> We are currently hovering somewhere between anger and depression on the Stages of Acceptance and I am anxiously awaiting for us to move to bargaining.
> 
> Eventually everyone will realize they have to move on with their lives.  *The amount of fear in people is just unhealthy*.



I have highlighted that particular sentence because its very true. Fear breeds paranoia and anger, which leads to hate which - well the little green guys has it right.

It doesn't help when mainstream media outlets headline "COVOD DEATHS SPIKE IN _____" (fill in the blank) or TV news outlets show rows and rows of caskets. A few "journalists" need one upside the head.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Mostly the propaganda has succeeded.  Very little attention now seems to be paid to the achievement of bending the hospitalization curve; now the alarmists keep themselves and others in a state of high anxiety over total positives.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Mostly the propaganda has succeeded.  Very little attention now seems to be paid to the achievement of bending the hospitalization curve; now the alarmists keep themselves and others in a state of high anxiety over total positives.



'Social control is best managed through fear.' Michael Crichton


----------



## Brad Sallows

Or just spreading partial information, or discarding any sense of proportion.  Some people got twisted recently over reinfections.

Some perspective here (Derek Lowe).


----------



## mariomike

Recipe for a Mass Casualty Incident: NYC restaurants being able to put up outdoor tents, have seating on the sidewalks and in the roadway, plus being able to use propane, natural gas and / or electric heating as the cold weather moves in.
https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/pedestrians/openrestaurants.shtml#updates


----------



## Ralph

All this talk of death tolls (or why we shouldn't worry about death tolls) leaves so little time to wonder what the rates of long-term effects due to COVID might be...


----------



## OldSolduer

Ralph said:
			
		

> All this talk of death tolls (or why we shouldn't worry about death tolls) leaves so little time to wonder what the rates of long-term effects due to COVID might be...



And that is a very good question - we have no idea as far as I know what the long term effects are. 

A century ago the Spanish flu took 50 million people worldwide. The virus itself - I would guess - is still around but as a herd we've developed immunity.

Can any experts weigh in?


----------



## Brad Sallows

We can't know what the long-term effects are until a long term has elapsed for us to observe them.

If we had a measure of the "severity" of a virus - some synthesized number that accounts for contagiousness and fatality or severe incapacitation risk, maybe another factor or two - we could plot the severity on a horizontal (X) axis and some measure representing mitigation efforts on the vertical ("Y").

I'd expect an S-shaped curve to result: little to no measures taken for the commonplace stuff (cold, flu) we customarily tolerate, then a sharp upward turn ("knee" in curve) at a point where severity motivates people to adopt rapidly increasing mitigation measures, then a leveling off (another knee) where there isn't much more mitigation to be done (eg. I don't think people are going to be noticeably less concerned over a highly contagious virus with a 30% fatality rate than one with 90% fatality rate).

But I would not expect to find out that the first knee begins just a little bit above common cold/flu.


----------



## mariomike

Ralph said:
			
		

> All this talk of death tolls (or why we shouldn't worry about death tolls) leaves so little time to wonder what the rates of long-term effects due to COVID might be...



Too soon to tell?

None of the members of our department infected by SARS - 17 years ago - were ever medically approved to return to 9-1-1 Operations by the dept. physician. 

Some ( all ? ) are still plagued by painful muscles and joints, shortness of breath and lack of energy. 

Edit:  17 years ago. 2003.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:
			
		

> Too soon to tell?
> 
> None of the members of our department infected by SARS - 13 years ago - were ever medically approved to return to 9-1-1 Operations by the dept. physician.
> 
> Some ( all ? ) are still plagued by painful muscles and joints, shortness of breath and lack of energy.



That’s what is unknown.  We talk about the death toll but not as much as the long term health effect on lungs and other organs.

On a related note:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/don-martin-resistance-grows-against-lockdowns-driven-without-data-1.5146410


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:
			
		

> Too soon to tell?
> 
> None of the members of our department infected by SARS - 17 years ago - were ever medically approved to return to 9-1-1 Operations by the dept. physician.
> 
> Some ( all ? ) are still plagued by painful muscles and joints, shortness of breath and lack of energy.
> 
> Edit:  17 years ago. 2003.



And we know COVID is not SARS, is nowhere near as deadly and most only experience minor illness.  So you're providing a false equivalency by saying what you're saying.

As for lingering issues and complications, that's the case with any disease but the amount of people with lingering issues hasn't been widespread.  If it was we would be hearing a lot more about it, rather than the ones and twos we hear about in the news media, in some nice fear-mongering pieces.

All I am seeing is the goal posts being shifted over and over again.  This shift is being driven by fear.

March/April:  We need to lockdown to ensure hospitals aren't overwhelmed

May/June:  We need to stay locked down to flatten the curve and keep deaths down

July/August:  We need to stay locked down to keep cases down

Sept/Oct:  We need to stay locked down because we don't know what the long term effects of this disease are.

The present hysteria is unfounded.  People are so afraid they are acting completely irrationally. 

It's also being used by Government's for their own nefarious reasons.  Andrew Cuomo admitted to a Jewish Rabbi in a recorded phone call this week that the present lockdowns in New York are not grounded in an sort of medical requirement and are all about allaying peoples fear.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/andrew-cuomo-takes-a-hatchet-11602803166

I listened to the recorded phone call, it's absolutely damning.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:
			
		

> That’s what is unknown.  We talk about the death toll but not as much as the long term health effect on lungs and other organs.



Right. Just have to "wait and see", as they say.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> At last count he has ‘enabled’ about 233,000 Americans to not be ‘politically useful anymore’.



Politics ( and long-term health effects aside ), I believe that number does not include people who died outside of hospital. 

To put the fatalities in perspective, the Centre for Disease Control ( CDC ) said 299,028 more people died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated. 

eg: Out of hospital 9-1-1 calls ( usually to a private residence ) where the person is pronounced by paramedics at the scene, and never transported to a hospital, would not be included.  
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm

In today's news,



> (CNN) — The US is adding an average of more than 74,000 new Covid-19 cases to the national total every day -- a record high in a pandemic that experts say is likely to worsen.
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/29/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:
			
		

> That’s what is unknown.  We talk about the death toll but not as much as the long term health effect on lungs and other organs.



Why haven't we banned smoking yet, we KNOW the long term health effects. Second-hand smoke kills just as easily. If we are so concerned about saving lives, time to apply it to cigarettes too.


----------



## QV

CDC's latest Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR) by age:

0-19 years: 0.00003
20-49 years: 0.0002
50-69 years: 0.005
70+ years: 0.054

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

I've got to say... I'm just not that worried about COVID-19.  With the life expectancy in the US at 78, it's almost like a normal thing.  If you make it past the age of 78, you're winning.  As the world population continues to grow, won't we see far more deaths in the advanced age groups of just about any ailment?


----------



## mariomike

QV said:
			
		

> With the life expectancy in the US at 78, it's almost like a normal thing.



How does that logic explain this?



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> The Centre for Disease Control ( CDC ) said 299,028 more people died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated.
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm


----------



## QV

Good question.  

The CDC goes on to state at least 2 out of 3 of those excess deaths were from covid.  So why the other excess deaths then?  There are 100,000 unexplained extra deaths not covid related.  Are those deaths the result of surgery or treatment postponements due to lockdowns?  So with that unknown, coupled with the significant instances of overreported covid deaths where the victim had on average 2.8 comorbidities and was advanced in age... 

It's not adding up for me.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:
			
		

> It's not adding up for me.



Out of hospital DOA's are not transported by paramedics. Or tested for Covid.

As long as police are satisfied no foul play was involved, they're good to go into the ground or crematorium.

eg: Between March 1 and April 25 in New York City alone, FDNY paramedics responded to nearly 4,000 cardiac arrest calls. That is triple the amount from the previous year. 

Of those calls, 90% of the cases were fatal.

Cause of death is not recorded by paramedics. Simply another "Cardiac Arrest".


----------



## Ralph

QV said:
			
		

> CDC's latest Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR) by age:
> 
> 0-19 years: 0.00003
> 20-49 years: 0.0002
> 50-69 years: 0.005
> 70+ years: 0.054
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
> 
> I've got to say... I'm just not that worried about COVID-19.  With the life expectancy in the US at 78, it's almost like a normal thing.  If you make it past the age of 78, you're winning.  As the world population continues to grow, won't we see far more deaths in the advanced age groups of just about any ailment?



It's a ratio. 1 person who dies out of a group of 10 is the same as 10 people dying from a group of 100 is the same as 100 people dying from a group of 1,000. 1:10.


----------



## QV

I get that.  So with an aging and expanding population we should expect to see increased fatality numbers beyond previous years. 

The great baby boomers number about 72million people in the US.  A lot of them are starting to hit 75 yrs of age... correlation to that higher than average deaths of all kinds #?


----------



## Ralph

Well, yes. If you introduce a brand-new way of dying into the world that targets the old and sick more than it does young, healthy people, it's going to kill more old and sick people than young, healthy people. It's great that you're not a-scared of COVID. It's great that your employer has taken strides to protect its people and pay them, even, in some cases, to sit and home and do very little. Some of us have people in our lives who don't need another easily transmittable way to get sick and die - not as a result of their own transgressions, but through the fault of people who simply don't care about anyone else. But you do you, QV.


----------



## blacktriangle

Ralph said:
			
		

> Some of us have people in our lives who don't need another easily transmittable way to get sick and die - not as a result of their own transgressions, but through the fault of people who simply don't care about anyone else. But you do you, QV.



Yes, some of us do. The ones I know are doing their best to mitigate risks to themselves and others, while also trying to maintain some productivity, sanity, & QOL. It's a balancing act.


----------



## QV

Ralph said:
			
		

> Well, yes. If you introduce a brand-new way of dying into the world that targets the old and sick more than it does young, healthy people, it's going to kill more old and sick people than young, healthy people. It's great that you're not a-scared of COVID. It's great that your employer has taken strides to protect its people and pay them, even, in some cases, to sit and home and do very little. Some of us have people in our lives who don't need another easily transmittable way to get sick and die - not as a result of their own transgressions, but through the fault of people who simply don't care about anyone else. But you do you, QV.



Keep making assumptions, playing victim, and living in fear Ralph those are winning attitudes.


----------



## suffolkowner

There is more to the disease than just death though. Some people may suffer long term impacts that are probably still to be fleshed out. Of course this is not unique to Covid-19. 

What I would like to see is some numbers on the outcomes/treatments etc...Usually after I post here on this subject it drives me to check out the Science and Nature journals updates on the coronavirus. I have not had good luck finding good numbers.

From Health Canada

Detailed case report data were provided on 220,054 cases; hospitalization status information was available for 193,581 (88.0%) of these cases:
16,122 cases (8.3%) were hospitalized, of whom:
3,413 (21.2%) were admitted to the ICU
807 (5.0%) required mechanical ventilation

and 9981 deaths

but what happened to the people that were hospitalized?
what happened to the people admitted to the ICU?
What happened to the people on ventilators?

In before Covid times 50% of people put on mechanical ventilators died while on the mechanical ventilator
of the 50% that came off mechanical ventilation 50% were dead in 6 months for a total of 75% mortality. Now what happens in a year or two I haven't seen the numbers but I'm guessing they will follow the curve. But out of this we have to remember that one doesn't generally put healthy vibrant people on mechanical ventilation so it's possible that the numbers wood have been the same regardless.

I am guessing with the larger number of people on ventilators there will be much better action plans that can be developed not just for Covid but other diseases as well. I have read that there is a lot of data(knowledge?) coming out on pressure and O2 conc


----------



## Remius

Living cautiously is not the same as living in fear.  

Some years ago when my newborn was in an ICU, I had to wear a mask.  I had to wash my hands.  It wasn’t fear.

When I get in my car I put my seatbelt. Not out of fear but for safety reasons.  

So yeah, I limit my trips out for non essential stuff.  My household has one person that does groceries and errands.  I wear a one time use glove to pump gas.  I have hand sanitizer in my car.  We order in twice a week to keep our favourite restaurant in business.  When it was eat in we would be there once every two weeks.  So I’m actually spending more there. 

Not because I’m scared.  Not because I live in fear of anything.  It’s being careful.  Like having the bucket of water next to my campfire at the cottage. 

Because I trust the science.  It isn’t hard to do those minor things.  I approve of a targeted approach. Ottawa restrictions are about to loosen again because people are actually listening. 

It is NOT fear.


----------



## mariomike

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> There is more to the disease than just death though. Some people may suffer long term impacts that are probably still to be fleshed out. Of course this is not unique to Covid-19.



I saw what SARS did to our young bucks still in their 20s and 30s. Sure, they survived. But, they were pretty pitiful specimens of the men they were before.

I don't know about this new one. Maybe won't be so bad?  :dunno:


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:
			
		

> Keep making assumptions, playing victim, and living in fear Ralph those are winning attitudes.



So someone considering info provided from various source, associating where risk factors may impact them or loved ones, and adjusting one’s lifestyle to manage/reduce potential risks is magically transformed by the QV-YOLO goggles into assumptiveness, victimization and life cowardice? 

QV, I hope you or any of your loved ones are never impacted by COVID.  I’ve had a number of family members affected by COVID with enduring impact to date, and I find your dismissiveness of those who have reason for concern to be intellectually lazy and unempathetic.  You clearly have your own views on the issue, but you don’t need to belittle others, such as Ralph, for their own more cautious views.


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> So someone considering info provided from various source, associating where risk factors may impact them or loved ones, and adjusting one’s lifestyle to manage/reduce potential risks is magically transformed by the QV-YOLO goggles into assumptiveness, victimization and life cowardice?
> 
> QV, I hope you or any of your loved ones are never impacted by COVID.  I’ve had a number of family members affected by COVID with enduring impact to date, and I find your dismissiveness of those who have reason for concern to be intellectually lazy and unempathetic.  You clearly have your own views on the issue, but you don’t need to belittle others, such as Ralph, for their own more cautious views.



I was responding to Ralph's underlined parts G2G, which I take issue with.  It would sure be nice to discuss stuff around here without emotion getting in the way.  Some of you people just can't help yourself with the insults.


----------



## Ralph

QV said:
			
		

> I was responding to Ralph's underlined parts G2G, which I take issue with.  It would sure be nice to discuss stuff around here without emotion getting in the way.  Some of you people just can't help yourself with the insults.


I'll bite. 
I didn't call you any names. You called ME names (single tear rolls down cheek). I go to army every day, I wear a mask while at work except for my cubicle as mandated by the man with all the leaves on his shoulders, and I wear a mask when inside a business as mandated by the politicians and health professionals. Not sure how that's being a victim or living in fear. I think it's following a lawful order.  
Exactly how does one take issue with me assuming you have the same employer as me? You're in the military, aren't you?
Exactly how does one take issue with the statement that the second wave of COVID and the deaths that it's causing are a result of people who should know better?
Again, you go on being you. Nobody's forcing you to change the way you think. Not sure why you're taking such issue...


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:
			
		

> I was responding to Ralph's underlined parts G2G, which I take issue with.



And I stand by my opinion that you were needlessly over personalizing your critique of his response



			
				QV said:
			
		

> It would sure be nice to discuss stuff around here without emotion getting in the way.



:rofl:

...because your response to Ralph wasn’t emotional! Ha!



			
				QV said:
			
		

> Some of you people just can't help yourself with the insults.




Ummmm...



			
				QV said:
			
		

> Keep making assumptions, playing victim, and living in fear Ralph those are winning attitudes.



Pot, kettle... :nod:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:
			
		

> How does that logic explain this?



Some of the abnormally high death rates in the US were caused by very dumb policy decisions:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/6973406/coronavirus-recovering-patients-new-york-nursing-homes/amp/

Case in point, forcing elderly persons out of the hospital and in to LTC to free up bed space for the overrun hospitals that never materialized.  It's why New York has the worst death rate in the World, despite some of the most draconian lockdown measures.

Ditto some lockdown policies that have been completely draconian and serve no purpose other than crippling some industries. Argentina has locked down harder than anyone and it's a complete basketcase.

What COVID has really demonstrated to me is the real limits of just what Government is capable of and in some cases it isn't very much.

My hypothesis is that lockdowns will just delay death, not really prevent it and inspite of all the Government intervention the death rate from between Countries will look radically similar.  There was an academic journal put out in the Lancet that says as much.

I am far more worried about widespread social unrest, knock on effects to the economy and the long term social effects this will have.  Right now we are so focused on the immediate effects of COVID-19, nobody is really worried about the bigger and longer term picture.


----------



## mariomike

My reply was to QV,



			
				QV said:
			
		

> With the life expectancy in the US at 78, it's almost like a normal thing.





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> The Centre for Disease Control ( CDC ) said 299,028 more people died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated.
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:
			
		

> My reply was to QV,



Yes and I replied to you  8)


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Yes and I replied to you  8)



Whatever. 8) 

This is all I said to QV,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> The Centre for Disease Control ( CDC ) said 299,028 more people died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated.
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm


----------



## Brad Sallows

It'd be a primitive world indeed if people just threw out facts without trying to interpret them.


----------



## mariomike

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> It'd be a primitive world indeed if people just threw out facts without trying to interpret them.



I already did, to Brihard. Repeated to QV. Now repeating to you,



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Out of hospital 9-1-1 calls ( usually to a private residence ) where the person is pronounced by paramedics at the scene, and never transported to a hospital, would not be included.
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:
			
		

> I already did, to Brihard. Repeated to QV. Now repeating to you,



Sorry but now you're just being deliberately obtuse.  It's fine to not agree with something but if you don't actually want to have a discussion, why bother posting?


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Sorry but now you're just being deliberately obtuse.  It's fine to not agree with something but if you don't actually want to have a discussion, why bother posting?



You win Humphrey Bogart. Congratulations. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to continue watching my show.


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> You win Humphrey Bogart. Congratulations. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to continue watching my show.



Is your show any good? I'm pretty baked right now.


----------



## mariomike

reveng said:
			
		

> Is your show any good? I'm pretty baked right now.



Sons of Anarchy . I'm having a couple of highballs .


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sons of Anarchy . I'm having a couple of highballs .



Nice!


----------



## suffolkowner

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> From Health Canada
> 
> Detailed case report data were provided on 220,054 cases; hospitalization status information was available for 193,581 (88.0%) of these cases:
> 16,122 cases (8.3%) were hospitalized, of whom:
> 3,413 (21.2%) were admitted to the ICU
> 807 (5.0%) required mechanical ventilation
> 
> and 9981 deaths



Just to clarify from the above

did 62% of hospitalizations result in deaths  9981/16122?
did 100% of ICU patients die?  3413/9981?
did 100% of ventilator patients die?  807/9981?

or as mariomike(?) suggested that in all probability many were pronounced dead and never admitted

So what is the case fatality rate for hospitalizations, ICU admittance, and ventilated?
What is the life history outcome of all the above? 

_DS edit to fix quote box._


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Some of the abnormally high death rates in the US were caused by very dumb policy decisions:
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/6973406/coronavirus-recovering-patients-new-york-nursing-homes/amp/
> 
> Case in point, forcing elderly persons out of the hospital and in to LTC to free up bed space for the overrun hospitals that never materialized.  It's why New York has the worst death rate in the World, despite some of the most draconian lockdown measures.
> 
> Ditto some lockdown policies that have been completely draconian and serve no purpose other than crippling some industries. Argentina has locked down harder than anyone and it's a complete basketcase.
> 
> What COVID has really demonstrated to me is the real limits of just what Government is capable of and in some cases it isn't very much.
> 
> My hypothesis is that lockdowns will just delay death, not really prevent it and inspite of all the Government intervention the death rate from between Countries will look radically similar.  There was an academic journal put out in the Lancet that says as much.
> 
> I am far more worried about widespread social unrest, knock on effects to the economy and the long term social effects this will have.  Right now we are so focused on the immediate effects of COVID-19, nobody is really worried about the bigger and longer term picture.



Now that my show is over, _what is your question to me exactly?
_
There are no questions in the above.

From suffolkowner,



> or as mariomike(?) suggested that in all probability many were pronounced dead and never admitted



It's a fact. Cardiac arrests, pronounced DOA by paramedics at scene, do not go to the hospital. And, therefore not tested for Coronavirus.



> 7 Apr. 2020
> 
> Scores of ‘probable’ coronavirus deaths not counted in NYC tally
> https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/scores-of-probable-coronavirus-deaths-are-not-being-counted-by-the-city/
> 
> The FDNY confirmed that paramedics are seeing more than 300 calls for cardiac arrest with “well over” 200 people dying each day.
> 
> Typically paramedics would deal with around two dozen deaths on around 54 to 74 cardiac arrest calls.
> 
> On Sunday alone, EMS responded to 322 calls — but only 81 survived.
> 
> A total 2,192 people died during similar calls between March 20 and April 5 — compared to 453 during the same time last year.
> 
> The city does not test people for the disease after they’ve died.



My thoughts are with the First Responders.


----------



## QV

QV said:
			
		

> CDC's latest Infection Fatality Ratio (IFR) by age:
> 
> 0-19 years: 0.00003
> 20-49 years: 0.0002
> 50-69 years: 0.005
> 70+ years: 0.054
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html



Let’s just look at that IFR again. I’m curious to know what other diseases are big killers? 

As the baby boomer generation (72 million in the US) reaches the average life expectancy, we are going to see a big spike in deaths from all causes.  So that should be starting about now.


----------



## mariomike

Nothing new about death.

But, how do you account for the 299,028 more people who died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated?

Is Covid the new "Boomer Remover"?


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> It's a fact. Cardiac arrests, pronounced DOA by paramedics at scene, do not go to the hospital. And, therefore not tested for Coronavirus.



FWIW I've attended a number of deaths as he describes - someone dies or is found dead at home, non-suspicious circumstances, the coroner arrives on scene and trundles them off. No hospital, no testing. Where there's a fairly readily apparent medical nexus to the death, that's simply that.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Nothing new about death.
> 
> But, how do you account for the 299,028 more people who died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated?
> 
> Is Covid the new "Boomer Remover"?



Just in case we needed any more confirmation:


The association between frailty and severe disease among COVID-19 patients aged over 60 years in China: a prospective cohort study

Conclusions
Frailty, assessed by the FRAIL scale, was associated with a higher risk of developing severe disease among older COVID-19 patients. Our findings suggested that the use of a clinician friendly assessment of frailty could help in early warning of older patients at high-risk with severe COVID-19 pneumonia.


https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12916-020-01761-0


----------



## QV

mariomike said:
			
		

> Nothing new about death.
> 
> But, how do you account for the 299,028 more people who died between January 26 and October 3 than the average numbers from the previous four years ( 2015 - 2019 ) would have indicated?
> 
> Is Covid the new "Boomer Remover"?



That is my point MM.  I think we are going to see higher numbers of all cause deaths until the "boomer" group is gone.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:
			
		

> That is my point MM.  I think we are going to see higher numbers of all cause deaths until the "boomer" group is gone.



Still a few of us "coffin dodgers" left. I'm hanging on to get every nickel I can out of OMERS.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:
			
		

> Let’s just look at that IFR again. I’m curious to know what other diseases are big killers?
> 
> As the baby boomer generation (72 million in the US) reaches the average life expectancy, we are going to see a big spike in deaths from all causes.  So that should be starting about now.



Figures for 2018 (my expectation is that the ranking of causes did not change for 2019)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm


> Leading Causes of Death
> 
> Data are for the U.S.
> 
> Number of deaths for leading causes of death
> 
> Heart disease: 655,381
> Cancer: 599,274
> Accidents (unintentional injuries): 167,127
> Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 159,486
> Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 147,810
> Alzheimer’s disease: 122,019
> Diabetes: 84,946
> Influenza and pneumonia: 59,120
> Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,386
> Intentional self-harm (suicide): 48,344
> 
> Source: Mortality in the United States, 2018, data table for figure 2



And before we rush to the conclusion that those over age 55 (baby boomers) are one foot in the grave already, death rates have been decreasing year on year (2020 will probably take a shitkicking) and generally life expectancies have increased.  

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db355.htm


> Did age-specific death rates in 2018 change from 2017 among those aged 15 years and over?
> 
> Between 2017 and 2018, death rates decreased 5.1% for age group 15–24 (from 74.0 deaths per 100,000 population in 2017 to 70.2 in 2018), 3.0% for age group 25–34 (132.8 to 128.8), 1.4% for age group 45–54 (401.5 to 395.9), 0.4% for age group 65–74 (1,790.9 to 1,783.3), 1.9% for age group 75–84 (4,472.6 to 4,386.1), and 0.9% for age group 85 and over (13,573.6 to 13,450.7) (Figure 3).
> 
> Rates for age groups 35–44 and 55–64 did not change significantly between 2017 and 2018.


----------



## blacktriangle

Brihard said:
			
		

> FWIW I've attended a number of deaths as he describes - someone dies or is found dead at home, non-suspicious circumstances, the coroner arrives on scene and trundles them off. No hospital, no testing. Where there's a fairly readily apparent medical nexus to the death, that's simply that.



If I may ask, were these experiences pre-COVID? If so, have procedures been adjusted? If for no reason other than contact tracing...


----------



## brihard

reveng said:
			
		

> If I may ask, were these experiences pre-COVID? If so, have procedures been adjusted? If for no reason other than contact tracing...



They were pre-COVID, I've ben off the road for a little while now. I can't speak to whether procedures have been changed.


----------



## QV

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Figures for 2018 (my expectation is that the ranking of causes did not change for 2019)
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
> And before we rush to the conclusion that those over age 55 (baby boomers) are one foot in the grave already, death rates have been decreasing year on year (2020 will probably take a shitkicking) and generally life expectancies have increased.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db355.htm



I agree life expectancy has increased slightly for the upper age groups and I think we can safely ignore the 55 yr old mortality rates, only an idiot would think that group has one foot in the grave given modern medicine and health habits.  

But the "boomer" class is a very large group and there are a ton of them turning 75 starting now and every year after this one for quite some time.  Birth rates dropped steeply after 1958 and continued on a downward trend.  The ratio of old to young is shifting more rapidly.  As a greater percentage of the population reach life expectancy we should expect to see a greater number of age related deaths from all causes.  This makes things like COVID-19 seem worse.  It's not that there is a huge risk with COVID-19, look at the IFR.  It's that we have far more people in the at-risk category due to an aging population.  We are going to see higher numbers of people dying, from all causes including COVID, and we should absolutely expect that.

Second order effects will include huge strains on health care systems and long term care facilities.  How are we going to fund the increasing health care costs in a locked down and wrecked economy?    Hindsight might show that cheap energy and the economic benefits of a healthy O&G sector were probably things we should have protected and facilitated, not destroyed.


----------



## a_majoor

This is perhaps the strangest Covid related news item I have seen:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8875201/Has-Covid-killed-flu.html

Has Covid killed off the flu? Experts pose the intriguing question as influenza cases nosedive by 98% across the globe
Many feared 'twin-demic' of flu, which kills thousands, and Covid-19 this winter 
Thirty million people - 20 per cent more than normal - now eligible for the flu jab
'Surveillance' data collected by WHO shows how flu cases plummeted globally
By JO MACFARLANE FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 17:24 EDT, 24 October 2020 | UPDATED: 06:57 EDT, 25 October 2020



> It was feared by many to be the perfect winter storm, a nightmare situation that would push our health service over the edge: the 'twin-demic' of flu, which kills about 10,000 Britons every year, and a second deadly wave of Covid-19.
> 
> Such was the concern that the Government rolled out the biggest flu vaccination programme in British history.
> 
> Thirty million people – 20 per cent more than normal, and now including all over-50s – are eligible for this year's jab.
> 
> Take up of the vaccine is already the highest it has ever been in the over-65s and young children, according to the latest reports.
> 
> There's just one curious problem: flu, it seems, has all but vanished.
> 
> The disappearing act began as Covid-19 rolled in towards the end of our flu season in March. And just how swiftly rates have plummeted can be observed in 'surveillance' data collected by the World Health Organisation (WHO).
> 
> Patients aren't routinely tested for flu, even if it's suspected, but a number of 'sentinel' GP surgeries and hospitals do carry out diagnostic screening on those who have symptoms, and this data gives us the most accurate picture of how much flu is in circulation.
> 
> And the figures provide a startling insight into what has become a creeping trend across the world.
> 
> In the Southern Hemisphere, where the flu season happens during our summer months, the WHO data suggests it never took off at all.
> 
> In Australia, just 14 positive flu cases were recorded in April, compared with 367 during the same month in 2019 – a 96 per cent drop.
> 
> By June, usually the peak of its flu season, there were none. In fact, Australia has not reported a positive case to the WHO since July.
> 
> In Chile, just 12 cases of flu were detected between April and October. There were nearly 7,000 during the same period in 2019.
> 
> In the UK, our flu season is only just beginning. But since Covid-19 began spreading in March, just 767 cases have been reported to the WHO compared with nearly 7,000 from March to October last year.
> 
> And in South Africa, surveillance tests picked up just two cases at the beginning of the season, which quickly dropped to zero over the following month – overall, a 99 per cent drop compared with the previous year.
> 
> In the UK, our flu season is only just beginning. But since Covid-19 began spreading in March, just 767 cases have been reported to the WHO compared with nearly 7,000 from March to October last year.
> 
> And while lab-confirmed flu cases last year jumped by ten per cent between September and October, as a new season gets under way this year they've risen by just 0.7 per cent so far.
> 
> Of course, this isn't the total number of flu cases.
> 
> We know from Office for National Statistics data that hundreds of people have been dying from suspected flu-related pneumonia every week throughout the year – that, and the predicted tough winter ahead, is why experts agree that vaccination is still vital to those eligible. Some flu seasons begin earlier than others.
> 
> But our low flu surveillance figure does indicate the spread of flu in the UK, right now, has yet to pick up pace.
> 
> Other research by Public Health England has confirmed this. Globally, it is estimated that rates of flu may have plunged by 98 per cent compared with the same time last year.
> 
> 'This is real,' says Dr David Strain, senior clinical lecturer at the University of Exeter Medical School. 'There's no doubt that we're seeing far fewer incidences of flu.'
> 
> So where has flu gone? And what does it mean for our winter?
> 
> There are intriguing theories – some more outlandish than others.



Being the Mail, they are pretty outlandish, but there is certainly something strange happening.


----------



## OldSolduer

I’d like to smack a few reporters upside their “holier than thou” heads. Hindsight Is 20/20. Damn morons.


----------



## GR66

Gee...people are social distancing, wearing masks and washing their hands more...and OMG flu transmission is down???


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> FWIW I've attended a number of deaths as he describes - someone dies or is found dead at home, non-suspicious circumstances, the coroner arrives on scene and trundles them off.  No hospital, no testing. Where there's a fairly readily apparent medical nexus to the death, that's simply that.





			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> They were pre-COVID, I've ben off the road for a little while now. I can't speak to whether procedures have been changed.



I've been retired a long time. But, I keep in contact with friends still on the job. Other than an increase in the number of residential DOA calls, it remains the way Brihard explained.


----------



## a_majoor

GR66 said:
			
		

> Gee...people are social distancing, wearing masks and washing their hands more...and OMG flu transmission is down???



I would understand the flu being down 20%, but down 98%? Either the reporting metrics are broken or something different is happening this year (one of the possibilities raised in the article is the flue virus is being "displaced" in people's bodies by the Covid virus). At any rate, I'm interested in the follow up


----------



## Weinie

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I would understand the flu being down 20%, but down 98%? Either the reporting metrics are broken or something different is happening this year _*(one of the possibilities raised in the article is the flue virus is being "displaced" in people's bodies by the Covid virus)*_. At any rate, I'm interested in the follow up



The H1N1 strain of the flu pushed the prevalent strains (H3 I believe) into irrelevance for that flu season(2009-2010). Interestingly, (and fortunately) there were far less deaths amongst the elderly that year, as the H1 strain had been predominant until the late fifties, and most of our elderly had antibodies, so the death rate for H1 was factors below what we would have normally seen. H1 was actually far more deadly for folks under 40, who had not been exposed to it and so had not developed any antibodies. (and this fact caused the original large scale fear and concern)

This is a very interesting finding, should it bear out.


----------



## a_majoor

Weinie said:
			
		

> The H1N1 strain of the flu pushed the prevalent strains (H3 I believe) into irrelevance for that flu season(2009-2010). Interestingly, (and fortunately) there were far less deaths amongst the elderly that year, as the H1 strain had been predominant until the late fifties, and most of our elderly had antibodies, so the death rate for H1 was factors below what we would have normally see. H1 was actually far more deadly for folks under 40, who had not been exposed to it and so had not developed any antibodies. (and this fact caused the original large scale fear and concern)
> 
> This is a very interesting finding, should it bear out.



My question about that is can a totally different virus do the same thing? One type of flu displacing another seems pretty reasonable, but the Coronavirus is different from the flu. Looking forward to seeing the answer to this.


----------



## Good2Golf

Thucydides said:
			
		

> My question about that is can a totally different virus do the same thing? One type of flu displacing another seems pretty reasonable, but the Coronavirus is different from the flu. Looking forward to seeing the answer to this.



It is likely associated more with the cleanliness and protective measures keeping transmission of the flu virus down...collateral benefit, as it were. 

:2c:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Weinie

Yeah, get it. But 98% (or even 85-90%, if replicated/supported) implies a complete virologic renaissance ITO approach, biology, medicine, and politics.


----------



## GR66

Remember that the annual influenza begins in SE Asia and then spreads around the world from there.  Travel between regions is radically down.  Passengers are screened for temperature and other Covid-like symptoms and are then typically quarantined on arrival to another country.  All of this on top of social distancing, masks, hand washing, etc. and I'm not surprised that the flu is so greatly reduced.


----------



## Weinie

GR66 said:
			
		

> _*Remember that the annual influenza begins in SE Asia and then spreads around the world from there. *_ Travel between regions is radically down.  Passengers are screened for temperature and other Covid-like symptoms and are then typically quarantined on arrival to another country.  All of this on top of social distancing, masks, hand washing, etc. and I'm not surprised that the flu is so greatly reduced.



Yup. I get that. But when you see stats like the below, it get's the grey matter roiling:



> In Australia, just 14 positive flu cases were recorded in April, compared with 367 during the same month in 2019 %u2013 a 96 per cent drop.
> 
> By June, usually the peak of its flu season, there were none. In fact, Australia has not reported a positive case to the WHO since July.
> 
> In Chile, just 12 cases of flu were detected between April and October. There were nearly 7,000 during the same period in 2019.
> 
> In the UK, our flu season is only just beginning. But since Covid-19 began spreading in March, just 767 cases have been reported to the WHO compared with nearly 7,000 from March to October last year.
> 
> And in South Africa, surveillance tests picked up just two cases at the beginning of the season, which quickly dropped to zero over the following month %u2013 overall, a 99 per cent drop compared with the previous year.



_DS edit to fix quote box._


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:
			
		

> Yup. I get that. But when you see stats like the below, it get's the grey matter roiling:



Really?  Not sure why.  It makes sense to me.  The measures most have taken for COVID have really nipped the Flu season in the bud.   

Are you thinking that Flu #s should still be relatively the same now, as they were in 2019 and earlier?

Regards
G2G


----------



## Weinie

I guess I am surprised at the order of magnitude of the decrease. Had they been cut in half, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but decreases above 90% are somewhat surprising.


----------



## a_majoor

Jay Bhattacharya is a Professor of Medicine at Stanford University, where he received both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in economics. He is also a research associate at the National Bureau of Economics Research, a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research and at the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies, and director of the Stanford Center on the Demography and Economics of Health and Aging. A co-author of the Great Barrington Declaration, his research has been published in economics, statistics, legal, medical, public health, and health policy journals.

The following is adapted from a panel presentation on October 9, 2020, in Omaha, Nebraska, at a Hillsdale College Free Market Forum.

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/sensible-compassionate-anti-covid-strategy/

A Sensible and Compassionate Anti-COVID Strategy
October 2020 • Volume 49, Number 10 • Jay Bhattacharya	



> My goal today is, first, to present the facts about how deadly COVID-19 actually is; second, to present the facts about who is at risk from COVID; third, to present some facts about how deadly the widespread lockdowns have been; and fourth, to recommend a shift in public policy.
> 
> snip
> 
> 4. Where to Go from Here
> 
> Last week I met with two other epidemiologists—Dr. Sunetra Gupta of Oxford University and Dr. Martin Kulldorff of Harvard University—in Great Barrington, Massachusetts. The three of us come from very different disciplinary backgrounds and from very different parts of the political spectrum. Yet we had arrived at the same view—the view that the widespread lockdown policy has been a devastating public health mistake. In response, we wrote and issued the Great Barrington Declaration, which can be viewed—along with explanatory videos, answers to frequently asked questions, a list of co-signers, etc.—online at www.gbdeclaration.org.
> 
> snip
> 
> My final point is about science. When scientists have spoken up against the lockdown policy, there has been enormous pushback: “You’re endangering lives.” Science cannot operate in an environment like that. I don’t know all the answers to COVID; no one does. Science ought to be able to clarify the answers. But science can’t do its job in an environment where anyone who challenges the status quo gets shut down or cancelled.
> 
> To date, the Great Barrington Declaration has been signed by over 43,000 medical and public health scientists and medical practitioners. The Declaration thus does not represent a fringe view within the scientific community. This is a central part of the scientific debate, and it belongs in the debate. Members of the general public can also sign the Declaration.
> 
> Together, I think we can get on the other side of this pandemic. But we have to fight back. We’re at a place where our civilization is at risk, where the bonds that unite us are at risk of being torn. We shouldn’t be afraid. We should respond to the COVID virus rationally: protect the vulnerable, treat the people who get infected compassionately, develop a vaccine. And while doing these things we should bring back the civilization that we had so that the cure does not end up being worse than the disease.


----------



## QV

Bhattacharya is clearly intellectually lazy and unempathetic.


----------



## GR66

Weinie said:
			
		

> I guess I am surprised at the order of magnitude of the decrease. Had they been cut in half, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but decreases above 90% are somewhat surprising.



There are a lot of little things that when stacked on top of each other could add up to very significant downstream changes in the number of infections.

- This year's annual strain of the seasonal influenza could possibly be less infections (lower Reproduction Number) than other years 
- Due to the Covid pandemic the early warning systems to spot flu outbreaks on farms (a potential source of avian flu outbreaks) could catch outbreaks earlier
- Wet markets (another potential outbreak location) are likely still largely shut down or significantly more closely monitored than previously
- Internal travel in China and other SE Asian countries is much more limited due to the pandemic and travellers are closely monitored for Covid symptoms which in many ways are like flu symptoms.
- Wearing of masks in the source countries and social distancing would limit local outbreaks
- Travel from the source countries to other countries is drastically down, passengers are monitored and quarantined.

The attached article says that the median Reproduction Number for seasonal influenza is 1.28 (1.19 to 1.37) https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-14-480#:~:text=The%20median%20R%20value%20for%20seasonal%20influenza%20was,IQR%3A%201.19%E2%80%931.37)..  

If the combinations of measures listed above bring the R Value down to anything below 1.0 then the outbreak will die out.


----------



## MilEME09

One thing for sure, Covid restrictions have proven effective at preventing the spread of the seasonal flu. Which is good because it will allow resources to focus on covid 19.


----------



## PuckChaser

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> One thing for sure, Covid restrictions have proven effective at preventing the spread of the seasonal flu. Which is good because it will allow resources to focus on covid 19.



Maybe we can lock down and destroy our economy every year to prevent seasonal flu deaths?


----------



## MilEME09

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Maybe we can lock down and destroy our economy every year to prevent seasonal flu deaths?



More like emphasis not going to work when sick, and wash your hands. We are all guilty of working when sick, I know I have.


----------



## FJAG

During my three years in Ottawa I had committee or team meetings to attend pretty much every day.

During the vast majority at least one person in the room was sniffling or hacking. I can't recall anyone ever missing a meeting for being sick - on stress leave, yes (lots of those) - but sick with a cold or flu, no.

 :facepalm:


----------



## PuckChaser

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> More like emphasis not going to work when sick, and wash your hands. We are all guilty of working when sick, I know I have.



While I think those are great things to keep on doing, I really don't think that's whats causing it. We're still down almost 3/4 of a million jobs from February levels, and many major cities have draconian business lockdown/isolation rules. Businesses/social events are not running or at 25% capacity. It's more of our forced lack of social interaction that's keeping flu in check (and apparently not working on COVID) than folks washing their hands more often.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Now consider all the retail businesses that claim not to be profitable until Christmas shopping turns the tide.  Not picturing malls full of shoppers this year, am I.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Now consider all the retail businesses that claim not to be profitable until Christmas shopping turns the tide.  Not picturing malls full of shoppers this year, am I.



'Bloody Friday' anyone?

Retail and hospitality sectors warn of Christmas trade meltdown from Covid lockdown

Jobs at risk in England and billions of pounds at stake as firms warn online shopping network may not cope

Retailers and hospitality firms have warned of the devastating financial impact of a new month-long lockdown in England which they say threatens billions of pounds worth of Christmas trade and puts hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk.

The next two months should be the most lucrative time of the year for the high street but 500,000 shops, restaurants and pubs will have to close on Thursday and remain shut until 2 December.

Shoppers usually spend around £50bn on goods other than food in the weeks leading up to Christmas as they gift clothes, toys and the latest technology to friends and family. But the new measures will force about 363,000 specialist stores to close, leaving major retailers such as Marks & Spencer and John Lewis with mountains of stock to shift through their websites and the click-and-collect services still allowed to operate.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/01/retail-and-hospitality-firms-warn-of-christmas-trade-devastation-from-covid-19-england-lockdown


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The issue with lockdowns is once the disease becomes endemic, lockdowns are no longer effective as all they do is delay some deaths that will inevitably occur as soon as the vulnerable are reintroduced to the disease which has now achieved widespread circulation. 

Certain isolated areas of the World will be able to keep the disease from becoming endemic (most of them are islands who can use their geographic advantage to tightly control their borders) but they will have to continue to fight a rear-guard action for a very long time.  

Atlantic Canada is going to be pooched long term because of this.  They will need to keep the Atlantic Bubble running long after everywhere else has gotten back to normal.

All of this is playing out as we speak and can be seen in all the trend lines.  The COVID death rate per day has remained much the same since the pandemic began but the disease continues to spread exponentially to ever greater numbers of people.

Every Country where the disease is now Endemic is going to have a death rate that is remarkably similar, regardless of how many lockdowns and Government interventions are carried out. 

All this to say, Governments aren't going to micromanage their way out of the pandemic but they will certainly try.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Another twist to the story.

Denmark to cull up to 17 million mink amid coronavirus fears
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54818615


> Denmark will cull all its mink - as many as 17 million - after a mutated form of coronavirus that can spread to humans was found on mink farms.
> 
> Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said the mutated virus posed a "risk to the effectiveness" of a future Covid-19 vaccine.
> 
> Denmark is the world's biggest producer of mink fur and its main export markets are China and Hong Kong.
> 
> The culling began late last month, after many mink cases were detected.
> 
> Coronavirus cases have also been detected in farmed mink in the Netherlands and Spain since the pandemic began in Europe.
> 
> But cases are spreading fast in Denmark - 207 mink farms in Jutland are affected - and at least five cases of the new virus strain were found. Twelve people had become infected, the authorities said.
> 
> Prime Minister Frederiksen described the situation as "very, very serious". Danish police and army personnel will help to carry out the mass cull.
> 
> Ms Frederiksen cited a government report which said the mutated virus had been found to weaken the body's ability to form antibodies, potentially making the current vaccines under development for Covid-19 ineffective.
> 
> "We have a great responsibility towards our own population, but with the mutation that has now been found, we have an even greater responsibility for the rest of the world as well," she told a news conference.
> 
> Since the start of the pandemic Denmark has reported 52,265 human cases of Covid-19 and 733 deaths, data from Johns Hopkins University shows.
> 
> 
> 
> _more at link_


----------



## daftandbarmy

Wow  

United States COVID-19 Cases and Deaths by County

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-map


----------



## brihard

Similar to some of Mariomike’s posts regarding events in the US, looks like Montreal paramedics had, for five months this spring and summer, halted CPR/defib resuscitation efforts on cardiac flatlines.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/montreal-paramedics-told-not-to-do-cpr-on-some-patients-for-months-due-to-covid-19-risks-1.5201791?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3Actvnews%3Apost&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1vNfm4D7Dewu4DbNPnrIt6TK_iDCv3FXgaAdUkJ8fPsKhy94xeuklLkAw


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Similar to some of Mariomike’s posts regarding events in the US, looks like Montreal paramedics had, for five months this spring and summer, halted CPR/defib resuscitation efforts on cardiac flatlines.



This was posted yesterday by the Toronto Paramedic union,



> Our Toronto Paramedic members are reporting feeling exhausted, overwhelmed and at a breaking point due to the workload of the pandemic. We are requesting support from Council and Province to adequately staff the front line.
> https://twitter.com/416TPSUnit/status/1330992265976815616



The only real sure thing in this town is when you dial 9-1-1 they send help. Police, Fire or Paramedic. But, even they have their breaking points.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Dry run of handling an ultra-low temperature vaccine next week:









> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-distribution-plan-1.5826494
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/feds-outline-plan-to-administer-first-covid-19-vaccines-launching-dry-run-next-week-1.5215641
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7499451/canada-coronavirus-vaccine-in-place-christmas/


----------



## Scott

How long before the troops discover the pure joy of dry ice bombs?


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:
			
		

> This was posted yesterday by the Toronto Paramedic union,
> 
> The only real sure thing in this town is when you dial 9-1-1 they send help. Police, Fire or Paramedic. But, even they have their breaking points.



And it sounds like the job is getting vastly more complicated:

COVID-19 infection rate among B.C. paramedics almost zero


When the pandemic hit, the agency was forced to add levels of protection for paramedics and their patients. That protection has been credited with keeping infection rates among members to almost zero.

With 30 years of experience as a paramedic, Brad Cameron, B.C. Emergency Health Services superintendent of patient care delivery for Greater Victoria, has never experienced this. “It has added a level of complexity our paramedics have never seen before.”

On average, B.C. Emergency Health Services (BCEHS) sees about 1,400 calls a day across the province. Of the 4,500 employees, eight have tested positive for COVID-19 – one of which was on the Island – since the start of the pandemic to the end of October. But of those eight positive cases, seven were found to have contracted the virus from family members – not on the job.

Unlike the sterile environments found in hospitals, members of B.C. Ambulance Service are entering homes and encountering an “enormous viral load,” Cameron explained. “It’s not the same environment … they can’t slip up.”

https://www.vicnews.com/news/covid-19-infection-rate-among-b-c-paramedics-almost-zero/


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And it sounds like the job is getting vastly more complicated:



According to a recent study led by Dr. David Prezant of Montefiore Medical Center, the FDNY’s chief medical officer and Dr. Michael Weiden of NYU Langone/FDNY Medical Officer, uniformed members of the FDNY ( firefighters and paramedics ) overall were 15 times more likely to contract COVID-19 than the general public. More staggering was the finding that FDNY paramedics were an additional five times more likely than FDNY’s firefighters to contract COVID.
https://openres.ersjournals.com/content/erjor/early/2020/10/15/23120541.00610-2020.full.pdf


----------



## HiTechComms

So elderly are dying that their immune system cannot fight off. 
Canada and most western countries have a lot of "Dry Tinder" there hasn't been a bad flue season in a long time what would have claimed a lot of these frail sick people. 

One thing that no one is looking at the demographics. The idea that people will live forever is absurd.
average age
Italy 45.4
Canada 40.5
USA 37.9
Spain 44.9
India 26.8
SA 27.6

We have a problem in demographics. Our age pyramid is reversed. We have a lot of old people in the western countries which will inevitably mean more deaths.

Not to mention Western countries also have higher amount of comorbidity not only among the old but younger which are more fatter and lazier in general.

My question is: If war break outs some where are everyone gone have the same moral virtue to not send you people to their deaths?


----------



## Remius

If war breaks out the intent would be to send whoever we are at war with to their deaths.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> So elderly are dying that their immune system cannot fight off.
> Canada and most western countries have a lot of "Dry Tinder" there hasn't been a bad flue season in a long time what would have claimed a lot of these frail sick people.
> 
> One thing that no one is looking at the demographics. The idea that people will live forever is absurd.
> average age
> Italy 45.4
> Canada 40.5
> USA 37.9
> Spain 44.9
> India 26.8
> SA 27.6
> 
> We have a problem in demographics. Our age pyramid is reversed. We have a lot of old people in the western countries which will inevitably mean more deaths.
> 
> Not to mention Western countries also have higher amount of comorbidity not only among the old but younger which are more fatter and lazier in general.
> 
> My question is: If war break outs some where are everyone gone have the same moral virtue to not send you people to their deaths?



So I’ll try and answer in my own way some of what you are saying.  

No one lives forever.  Exactly.  Life is precious and we should endeavour to extend ones life as long as we can provided is can be lived with quality.  Being old should not be a disqualifier to being able to live longer.

As for the war comment I’m not sure the analogy is equal at all if I understand what you are trying to compare.   

But...

We send our military into harms way all the time.  We don’t try to send them to their deaths.  Or leave them to die either.  We actually try to prevent that part.  Actively and passively.  We try to equip them with the training and equipment to avoid death.  

I would have the same moral virtue if we just left our pers to die or opted to not give them the proper safety precautions to keep them alive and prevent their deaths if we did send them to war.


----------



## Old Sweat

And in case you were beginning to think common sense - which isn't all that common - would prevail, this story from Global News reproduced under the Fair Comment provisions of the Copyright Act, should return you to reality.
CSIS warns about conspiracy theories linking COVID-19 to 5G technology

By Stewart Bell   Global News
Posted December 4, 2020 4:00 am
 Updated December 3, 2020 8:50 pm

CSIS says foreign actors engaging in COVID-19 disinformation

Conspiracy theories linking 5G technology to COVID-19 have become so pervasive that Canada’s intelligence service is warning of possible extremist attacks on sites associated with the wireless network.

A confidential Canadian Security Intelligence Service report obtained by Global News anticipates that “ideologically motivated violent” (IMV) extremists may target 5G sites.

“As companies begin 5G infrastructure construction in earnest, extremists from across the IMV extremist landscape could engage in acts of arson and vandalism against that infrastructure,” the report said.

The report was among a cache of documents on the national security implications of COVID-19 released to Global News under the Access to Information Act.

The documents show CSIS has been monitoring the pandemic for the Canadian government and its international partners, focusing particularly on COVID-19 disinformation spread by authoritarian states and extremist groups.

“Given the extraordinary effect the COVID-19 pandemic has created on the lives of individuals across the world, CSIS is mindful that certain threat actors, across multiple threat landscapes, may seek to take advantage to advance their own interests,” CSIS spokesperson John Townsend said when asked about the documents.

COVID-19 conspiracy theories have been circulated by governments trying to deflect blame for their failures, and extremist groups trying to capitalize on public anxiety.

Among the more popular is that the coronavirus is caused by radiation poisoning from 5G technology. Another claims governments are using lockdowns to build 5G infrastructure.

Perhaps the most elaborate asserts that 5G was designed by governments to depopulate the world, and is part of a broader conspiracy theory called Agenda 21 that imagines the United Nations is trying to establish a new world order.

None have any scientific validity, but white supremacists, neo-Nazis and anarchists have all adopted COVID-19 conspiracy theories to varying degrees, while the anti-vaxxer movement has promoted the notion that 5G is responsible for spreading COVID-19.

“Other conspiracy theories targeting COVID-19/5G have emerged from various online anti-capitalist, anti-technology, and environmental groups/communities,” according to the CSIS report.

A “not insignificant minority of Canadians” falsely believe in a connection between the COVID-19 pandemic and 5G technology, according to a CSIS intelligence assessment dated May 1, 2020.

“In Canada, physical opposition to 5G infrastructure is significantly less when compared to recent actions in the U.K. and Europe,” the report said.

But it said “Canadian-based online communities” were promoting the 5G conspiracy and that far-right extremist groups were trying to “capitalize on ‘5G hysteria.’”

The report noted that a cellphone tower in Laval, Que., was the target of a “significant attack” in April that caused $1 million in damage.

Another half-dozen towers were torched north of Montreal in early May. Two people were charged. None of the towers were associated with 5G networks.

A May 17 post on a QAnon Quebec Facebook page showed a cell tower burning in Italy, and generated comments such as “burn them all” and instructions on how to do so, according to the Middle East Media Research Institute.

“CSIS is aware of how conspiracy theories have the potential to inspire individuals to take violent extremist action,” Townsend said.

A terrorism expert said the 5G conspiracy theories that were popular early in the pandemic had declined as new ones had emerged within the anti-mask and anti-lockdown movements.

“As the vaccine roll-out begins, I think we should be prepared for a whole new set of conspiracies related to the vaccine as well,” said Amarnath Amarasingam, a Queen’s University professor who specializes in extremist groups.

Research has found the more people believe in conspiracy theories, the more real-world impact it has in their lives, he said, adding they were less likely to vaccinate their children or believe experts.

“So, while it would be great to ignore these fringe ideas, they sadly often have outsized impact,” Amarasingam said.

The recent wave of conspiracy theories has also been a driver of violence, he said.
“We never really saw that with past conspiracies related to 9/11 or the moon landing or the JFK assassination.”

Both 3G and 4G technology were also the subject of conspiracy theories that linked them to cancer.

The 5G conspiracy theory appears to have originated with an article in January 2020, with an article in an obscure Belgian newspaper that was soon deleted.

Its impact was felt particularly in the United Kingdom, where there have been dozens of attacks on telecommunications masts.

“Conspiracy theories linking COVID-19 and 5G have become extremely popular online and within multiple portions of the IMV landscape,” CSIS wrote.

“Within this milieu are individuals who engage in, encourage or support attacks on 5G infrastructure, and harass telecom workers,” CSIS wrote in the report, Conspiracy Theories, COVID-19 and Threats to 5G Infrastructure.

Stewart.Bell@globalnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> We have a lot of old people in the western countries which will inevitably mean more deaths.



I read some younger people jokingly refer to Covid as "Boomer remover".


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:
			
		

> So I’ll try and answer in my own way some of what you are saying.
> 
> No one lives forever.  Exactly.  Life is precious and we should endeavour to extend ones life as long as we can provided is can be lived with quality.  Being old should not be a disqualifier to being able to live longer.
> 
> As for the war comment I’m not sure the analogy is equal at all if I understand what you are trying to compare.
> 
> But...
> 
> We send our military into harms way all the time.  We don’t try to send them to their deaths.  Or leave them to die either.  We actually try to prevent that part.  Actively and passively.  We try to equip them with the training and equipment to avoid death.
> 
> I would have the same moral virtue if we just left our pers to die or opted to not give them the proper safety precautions to keep them alive and prevent their deaths if we did send them to war.



Well in a world where hard choices need to be made. Benefit cost analysis. I hate making Moral arguments because morals are just like beauty, they are in the eye of the beholder.

I think the WAR analogy is quite appropriate. 

War = Do we sacrifice young to possibly stop greater harm? 
Covid = Do we sacrifice the old and feeble to possible stop greater harm?

My family has lived passed First war, 2nd War, Hitler, Stalin, Years of communist occupation and uprisings. Now your telling people, you cannot see your loved ones because they might get sick and die? What happens if they want to? Isn't euthanasia legal in Canada?

My grandmother is almost 90 and she ended up in hospital on unrelated illness and she ended up being isolated for 5 weeks. She had no contact, she was distraught but she made it. I pay for the caretakers of my grandparents and it was their choice that if they get sick they will not call doctors or medical help. They want to die on their own terms. They still live on their own.

Ironically Canadians scream morally virtue about saving the vulnerable, yet the same people dumped their loved ones into LTR and barely visit. Where have the bulk of deaths occurred? If anything the State did a good job killing the vulnerable by putting sick back into LTR to save and ration the healthcare. Healthcare that Canadians believe is a right.. (Positive rights are an asinine idea). IMHO any one that dumps their loved ones in an LTR don't care and are hypocrites when it comes to protecting the vulnerable. I have family that work in LTR and barely any one visits these people before all of this started and now every one is outraged because Nana might die. Don't get me started on elder abuse. 

Look at the percentages and stats.. LTR almost account for 80% of deaths. The average LTR stay is 2.5 years and that's before COVID. Any illness or injury is pretty well much a possible ender for people in LTR.

As some one that immigrated to Canada from a Socialist Utopia, I have noticed that Canadians are far more likely and voluntarily are willing to give up their own freedoms and rights in order to feel safe. I worked in Canadian elections and trust me when I say this, 60% of this country would willingly vote them selves into communism. 

Western civilization is slowly descending into moral tyranny. Well at least I have a dual citizenship and can leave if I have too, can you say the same?

Does the government exist to protect people for them selves or people hurting other people? 

Does the state have any right to tell anyone what they can do and what risks they want to voluntarily take?

*shrug*


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> IMHO any one that dumps their loved ones in an LTR don't care and are hypocrites when it comes to protecting the vulnerable.



Well then I guess my father, siblings and I are hypocrites. After my mother had a series of strokes, she *had* to be put in a care home so she could be properly looked after.  No one in my family was medically trained (or even physically able at the time) to take care of her hygiene needs, among other things.  Let's just say I am glad that both of my parents have passed away.



> Now your telling people, you cannot see your loved ones because they might get sick and die?  What happens if they want to? Isn't euthanasia legal in Canada?



Fine, go see your loved ones.  Can you *guarantee* that if you get COVID, you'll only pass it on to family members and no one else??

You know what the biggest problem is?  Some people are just selfish.  You're right about one thing; many people are bitching about not being able to do something that they wouldn't have done (or even wanted to do) before COVID hit.


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:
			
		

> If war breaks out the intent would be to send whoever we are at war with to their deaths.



If war breaks out, the intent would be to hide behind our neighbours to the south. You know, the ones that everyone bad mouths constantly. The alternative would be to be crushed.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> Well at least I have a dual citizenship and can leave if I have too, can you say the same?



Sure. Got my EU passport. Married to a US citizen. Always wanted to live in Arizona.



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Let's just say I am glad that both of my parents have passed away.



My mother is 88 and still an active homeowner. Some retirement homes are very nice. 

"It's a retirement community!"  



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You know what the biggest problem is?  Some people are just selfish.



Ain't that the truth.

What surprised me was I thought this would bring people together. Like during the war. Unfortunately, it seems to have had the opposite effect.


----------



## OldSolduer

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> So elderly are dying that their immune system cannot fight off.
> Canada and most western countries have a lot of "Dry Tinder" there hasn't been a bad flue season in a long time what would have claimed a lot of these frail sick people.
> 
> One thing that no one is looking at the demographics. The idea that people will live forever is absurd.
> average age
> Italy 45.4
> Canada 40.5
> USA 37.9
> Spain 44.9
> India 26.8
> SA 27.6
> 
> We have a problem in demographics. Our age pyramid is reversed. We have a lot of old people in the western countries which will inevitably mean more deaths.
> 
> Not to mention Western countries also have higher amount of comorbidity not only among the old but younger which are more fatter and lazier in general.
> 
> My question is: If war break outs some where are everyone gone have the same moral virtue to not send you people to their deaths?



I guess no one in your family or friends circle  has COVID. Your judgements are harsh and at odds with the majority on here. Have a good day.


----------



## mariomike

reveng said:
			
		

> If war breaks out, the intent would be to hide behind our neighbours to the south.



Canadians fought alongside Americans. 

Edit to add:

I'm old enough to remember when a lot of "our neighbours to the south" came up here to hide out from the Draft.

I also read, "about 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in southeast Asia"

"One hundred ten Canadians died in Vietnam, and seven remain listed as missing in action."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War#Canadians_in_the_U.S._military


----------



## blacktriangle

mariomike said:
			
		

> Canadians fought alongside Americans.



It's not about the quality of our soldiers or their valour (demonstrated time and time again) - the problems are within the the political class and the masses they control. I believe our current leader's father avoided WW2 and was pretty proud about the fact he was doing so. Anyways not really on topic, so I'll drop it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I guess no one in your family or friends circle  has COVID. Your judgements are harsh and at odds with the majority on here. Have a good day.



The other issue is, of course, if we can't keep old people from dying from this virus (a largely immobile, concentrated, already over served by the health care sector population) how will we fare when (not 'if') a virus comes along that is far more virulent and a serious threat to all ages, everywhere?


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The other issue is, of course, if we can't keep old people from dying from this virus (a largely immobile, concentrated, already over served by the health care sector population)_* how will we fare when (not 'if') a virus comes along that is far more virulent and a serious threat to all ages, everywhere?*_



Not very well. Think Walking Dead, without the zombies.


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well then I guess my father, siblings and I are hypocrites. After my mother had a series of strokes, she *had* to be put in a care home so she could be properly looked after.  No one in my family was medically trained (or even physically able at the time) to take care of her hygiene needs, among other things.  Let's just say I am glad that both of my parents have passed away.
> 
> Fine, go see your loved ones.  Can you *guarantee* that if you get COVID, you'll only pass it on to family members and no one else??
> 
> You know what the biggest problem is?  Some people are just selfish.  You're right about one thing; many people are bitching about not being able to do something that they wouldn't have done (or even wanted to do) before COVID hit.



Quoted for truth.  

I guess I’m a hypocrite too since my father in law has advanced Parkinson’s and actually needs things like you know, care and such. He isn’t there because we want him there.  He has to be there.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> Well in a world where hard choices need to be made. Benefit cost analysis. I hate making Moral arguments because morals are just like beauty, they are in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> I think the WAR analogy is quite appropriate.
> 
> War = Do we sacrifice young to possibly stop greater harm?
> Covid = Do we sacrifice the old and feeble to possible stop greater harm?
> 
> My family has lived passed First war, 2nd War, Hitler, Stalin, Years of communist occupation and uprisings. Now your telling people, you cannot see your loved ones because they might get sick and die? What happens if they want to? Isn't euthanasia legal in Canada?
> 
> My grandmother is almost 90 and she ended up in hospital on unrelated illness and she ended up being isolated for 5 weeks. She had no contact, she was distraught but she made it. I pay for the caretakers of my grandparents and it was their choice that if they get sick they will not call doctors or medical help. They want to die on their own terms. They still live on their own.
> 
> Ironically Canadians scream morally virtue about saving the vulnerable, yet the same people dumped their loved ones into LTR and barely visit. Where have the bulk of deaths occurred? If anything the State did a good job killing the vulnerable by putting sick back into LTR to save and ration the healthcare. Healthcare that Canadians believe is a right.. (Positive rights are an asinine idea). IMHO any one that dumps their loved ones in an LTR don't care and are hypocrites when it comes to protecting the vulnerable. I have family that work in LTR and barely any one visits these people before all of this started and now every one is outraged because Nana might die. Don't get me started on elder abuse.
> 
> Look at the percentages and stats.. LTR almost account for 80% of deaths. The average LTR stay is 2.5 years and that's before COVID. Any illness or injury is pretty well much a possible ender for people in LTR.
> 
> As some one that immigrated to Canada from a Socialist Utopia, I have noticed that Canadians are far more likely and voluntarily are willing to give up their own freedoms and rights in order to feel safe. I worked in Canadian elections and trust me when I say this, 60% of this country would willingly vote them selves into communism.
> 
> Western civilization is slowly descending into moral tyranny. Well at least I have a dual citizenship and can leave if I have too, can you say the same?
> 
> Does the government exist to protect people for them selves or people hurting other people?
> 
> Does the state have any right to tell anyone what they can do and what risks they want to voluntarily take?
> 
> *shrug*



I honestly have no idea what point you are trying to make but a few things about what you said.

1) you have a fundemental misunderstanding about Canadian society.  People aren’t willing to temporarily suspend their freedoms because they want to feel safe.  They are willing to do it to KEEP OTHERS safe. 

2) you aren’t the first dual citizen to use canadian citizenship as a convenience.   When it’s tough they leave and when they want something they come back.  I accept the rules of the game but I don’t have to like the players.  By all means if you don’t like the rules feel free to exercise your right to leave.  That’s the beauty of our country.  People can come and go. 

3). I’ve seen in other threads you are in the final stages of the recruiting stages.  Congrats so far.  But just  a friendly comment that if you don’t like the gvt telling you what to do and having your free will curtailed something tells me you won’t like the military much.  Food for thought. 

Cheers.


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You know what the biggest problem is?  Some people are just selfish.  _*You're right about one thing; many people are bitching about not being able to do something that they wouldn't have done (or even wanted to do) before COVID hit.*_



True dat. 

No one wants to be compelled to take a sh%t in the woods, but woe when you tell them they *can't*. Then you will have a line up 1000 people long at the nearest tree, demanding the right to squat and that the government gives them birch bark to wipe.


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well then I guess my father, siblings and I are hypocrites. After my mother had a series of strokes, she *had* to be put in a care home so she could be properly looked after.  No one in my family was medically trained (or even physically able at the time) to take care of her hygiene needs, among other things.  Let's just say I am glad that both of my parents have passed away.
> 
> Fine, go see your loved ones.  Can you *guarantee* that if you get COVID, you'll only pass it on to family members and no one else??
> 
> You know what the biggest problem is?  Some people are just selfish.  You're right about one thing; many people are bitching about not being able to do something that they wouldn't have done (or even wanted to do) before COVID hit.



If it were possible to visit them I would. Flying is very restrictive. My extended family visits and I financially support them. My grandparents also except the fact that they are old and frail. They know that they have not much time left and they rather spend as much time with their loved ones as they can. If you want to isolate your loved ones or vice versa that is entirely YOUR choice, but please understand that you  are not under any position to dictate terms to others. We (as in I and our family take care of our own), if you want to send your loved ones into LTR that is fine its your and loved ones choice. My condolences on your loss of your parents but I will spend as much time with mine before I cannot, our family dynamics are different then yours.

As for guarantees, there is no such thing.. Can you guarantee me that you will not get a speeding ticket ever?, Medical error will not kill you in the hospital?, or when you are deployed as part of CAF that you will not get injured or killed?. There are only two guarantees in life; DEATH and TAXES. 

Again I am an immigrant I grew up under a communist boot and I refuse to kow tow to moral tyrants. You do you and I will do me, but don't think it gives you the right to dictate terms to me (which you are not, I am stating this as to the State Tyranny). We are vastly different and I appreciate others peoples opinions and situations and I understand limitations of life but far to often I see family unceremoniously dumped in LTR until they die as it has happened in mine.

Lastly internet forums and digital media has no room for nuance. I don't know your situation and you don't know mine. 

As for those trying to argue "what if" situations about an actual deadly pandemic happening? You are just shifting goal posts, and not only that, we don't even know what the societal implications are of this pandemic are and trying to think of a vastly more negative thing "what if" scenario is beyond silly. If this pandemic was actually deadly with a 20% mortality rate then yes I would agree with draconian measures but due the fact it is not deadly and people willy nilly giving up their rights as humans and citizens is just stupid. Heck "what if" Joe Biden trips and launches all nukes and starts ww3. 

As a general observation in society: If you need to be told on how to behave as a respectful and courteous human being towards others then you probably are already a POS.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> As for guarantees, there is no such thing..



Only guarantee is people are going to get sick from Covid, and some are going to die. Until enough people get vaccinated, best we can do is try to "flatten the curve".

As a retired person, I follow the advice of medical professionals as best I can. I realise that may be easier for me than for others.

What I don't get is people not even making an effort. Not for themselves, or others. Sometimes to the point where our police have to get involved. Putting themselves, and their families, at risk.

Good luck with your DEO application, by the way.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> our family dynamics are different then yours.



You make a lot of assumptions.  



			
				HiTechComms said:
			
		

> As for guarantees, there is no such thing.. Can you guarantee me that you will not get a speeding ticket ever?, Medical error will not kill you in the hospital?, or when you are deployed as part of CAF that you will not get injured or killed?.



None of those scenarios involve an extremely contagious virus that can make people ill and is potentially fatal.

But yeah, "you do you" and I hope your (and other's) disregard of emergency orders doesn't keep affecting the rest of us.  But it will.

Too many people are mistaking inconvenience for tyranny.   :


----------



## Infanteer

The stuff about tyranny is silly and full of hyperbole.  People need to recognize that there is a line where personal liberty ends and social responsibility begins.  That's how civil society works.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> I refuse to kow tow to moral tyrants.





			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> The stuff about tyranny is silly and full of hyperbole.



Right.


----------



## The Bread Guy

HiTechComms said:
			
		

> ... I pay for the caretakers of my grandparents ...


So it's OK for you to use other means when you can't _personally_ take care of your loved ones ...


			
				HiTechComms said:
			
		

> ... any one that dumps their loved ones in an LTR don't care and are hypocrites when it comes to protecting the vulnerable ...


... but not others?


			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> ... there is a line where personal liberty ends and social responsibility begins.  That's how civil society works.


QFTT


----------



## daftandbarmy

Yup, anyone who owns or works in retail is pretty much scr&wed right now. And the Zombies are after them too.

Gub-Mint workers? COVID 19: Experiences may vary  


Canada's Main Streets and Small Businesses Face Extreme Uncertainty According to New Research Study
-Visits to main streets down 35-70 per cent
-Concern for safety is a critical issue, especially in downtown areas
-Small businesses pin hopes on Canadians shopping local

Vancity Community Investment Bank (VCIB), and the Canadian Urban Institute, today released research that examines seven of Canada’s main streets, offering insight into how small businesses have been impacted by COVID-19 since April.

This follow up study to earlier research reveals the extent to which small businesses are grappling with the effects of the pandemic. Insights from April to July showed that despite the pandemic, the business community had the space to find innovative ways to adapt during the summer by taking advantage of conditions such as relaxed restrictions and lower COVID-19 case numbers. Strong local economies and connections to the community were also helping businesses fare. However, visitation data shows foot traffic on main streets has fallen since September with each block reporting visits to be down between 35-70 per cent compared to the same time last year, and 58 per cent of businesses are operating with reduced revenues – often less than half of pre-COVID levels.

The study sets out to determine how communities and main streets have fared in the wake of the pandemic and quantifies the challenges facing small independent businesses. The survey looked at blocks in the following neighbourhoods in Ontario and British Columbia: The Beaches in Toronto; Surrey-Newton, BC; Downtown Hamilton; Wexford Heights, Toronto; Downtown Victoria; Strathcona-Vancouver; and the North Shore in Kamloops.


Key findings of the research study include:

Visits to the seven blocks were down between 30-70% compared to pre-COVID levels. Downtown Victoria in BC saw almost a million fewer visits from April to September compared to the same time last year. In The Beaches neighbourhood in Toronto, there were 550,000 fewer visits and in North Shore Kamloops, a small community in BC, there were 140,000 fewer visits.

Business owners in downtown blocks report an exponential increase in vandalism, including graffiti and broken windows, that they fear is keeping local residents off the main street. In Victoria and Strathcona in BC, 77% and 67% of businesses respectively, said their biggest challenge is increased safety issues in the neighbourhood.

More than 25% of businesses say that selling more online and through delivery applications have positively affected their business. And while these services have become a significant source of revenue for restaurants, the high commission rates charged by mainstream meal delivery services continues to put a strain on profits.

Encouraging local shopping was the most widely cited example of a meaningful support business owners wanted from government (57%). It was more popular than creating a more competitive tax environment (40%) or better access to financing (20%) as the most important thing governments and other main street advocates should do to support them going forward.

There is a growing presence of REITS and large investment companies on main streets, which tend to be less invested in the well-being of businesses and local neighbourhoods.

https://www.vancity.com/AboutVancity/News/MediaReleases/CanadasMainStreetsSmallBusinessesUncertainty_Dec7_2020/


----------



## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The stuff about tyranny is silly and full of hyperbole.  People need to recognize that there is a line where personal liberty ends and social responsibility begins.  That's how civil society works.


 
And I agree.
We all pretty much are aware of our rights - less so for our responsibilities.


----------



## BDTyre

Looks like 41 Brigade is gearing up for a possible OP LASER deployment.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/military-reservists-possible-prairie-deployment-1.5832023


----------



## brihard

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> Looks like 41 Brigade is gearing up for a possible OP LASER deployment.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/military-reservists-possible-prairie-deployment-1.5832023



Reads like a ‘BPT’ and getting ahead of the curve on a two week preparatory isolation. And the same troops wouldn’t mecessarily have to be deployed in AB if the demand came elsewhere.


----------



## BDTyre

Yes, fair point Brihard. I'm not sure what steps 39CBG are taking. I imagine the units have been told to see how many people they can get for a potential return to OP LASER. I do know that aside from the course I'm on, there is to be no in-person training across the brigade for the first few weeks of January.


----------



## brihard

There will likely be a lot of members of the public both scrutinizing and freaked out by this. To us, reservists in AB doing pandemic-related training involving palliative care and dealing with deceased Canadians is simply proper preparation and due diligence for a remote contingency; to the public it’s potentially alarming. Most of us know that CAF obsessively plans and prepares, and that as much as we’ll sneer and joke about same, by and large CAF has a culture of ‘being ready’ for unanticipated eventualities. That ends up being exactly why the rest of the government leans on them in a crisis. Hell, before going to Afghanistan I practiced and trained to do a lot of things that I ultimately never had to do in real life. But that’s how CAF is any good at doing what it does. They have the luxury of time to anticipate, plan, and train without certain knowledge that said training will ultimately be needed.

Unfortunately the circumstances of the pandemic have primed the pump for fear and conspiracy. Many members of the public won’t realize that CAF will anticipate, plan for, and train for _possible_ tasks without direction from civil authorities to do so. That’s why CAF is uniquely able to say “ok, let’s go” if a call comes, without an extended delay and apparent preparation- the prep work for dozens of possibilities has already been set in motion, so it’s a matter of pulling out the right file, dusting it off, and putting the polish on a contingency that was unlikely but nonetheless envisioned years ago.

I hope we don’t have CAF members dealing with worst case situations, but Italy circa March and April suggests CAF would be delinquent not to prepare for the remote possibility. I’m not in anymore and so will be the beneficiary of CAF’s participation (if it’s ultimately necessary) rather than a participant. I’m grateful that our people continue to get ready as best they can, and that leadership is leaning forward so that if an order comes it’ll “ok, what do you need tomorrow?” And not “what do you think you’ll still want us to do in February?”


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh my, I'm shocked   :sarcasm:




Ottawa passed over private sector plans to produce a COVID-19 vaccine domestically


The federal government passed over a private option for its plans to produce COVID-19 vaccine domestically by the end of 2020, instead investing in its own production facility that is now almost a year behind schedule.

The decision to pitch money into a delayed and still-under-construction government lab was made after Ottawa vowed to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to develop the country’s anemic biomanufacturing sector. With uncertainty emerging around whether Canada will be able to produce its own doses of the life-saving vaccine, those familiar with Canada’s pharmaceutical industry say Ottawa has charted the wrong course.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau acknowledged the government’s failure to meet its promise to start production in late November, saying the lab would be used to fight future pandemics. “We will not be caught on the wrong foot again.”

His government is sticking with its plan to spend $170-million upgrading existing National Research Council labs and to build a whole new facility at the government-run organization’s Montreal campus. Delays, however, mean the facility won’t be able to produce any doses of the vaccine until late summer, at the earliest.

Right next door to the NRC, on Royalmount Avenue in Montreal, is PnuVax, which sources familiar with the company say could have been ready to produce millions of doses of COVID-19 vaccine by the end of 2020.

The Globe and Mail is not identifying the industry sources, who are concerned criticizing government decisions could jeopardize future business with the Government of Canada.

PnuVax wouldn’t comment on whether it had applied to the Strategic Innovation Fund, providing a statement that reads: “PnuVax would be happy to assist in Canada’s response to the COVID-19 pandemic in any way that is possible.”

The PnuVax facility, which was most recently renovated in 2012 to meet Health Canada standards, sits on NRC land and has previously received support from the government research body. The company has worked to develop a low-cost pneumonia vaccine and was contracted by the federal government to produce an antibody-based treatment for the Ebola virus in 2014.

Multiple industry sources told The Globe that with the right investments, upgrades and approvals, PnuVax could have been producing vaccines much faster than the NRC’s plan to start from scratch.

Amine Kamen says, “There is a long history” with the PnuVax building. “It was there to support vaccine [production] in Canada,” said Dr. Kamen, a McGill professor who spent decades at the NRC pioneering a vaccine for rabies in animals. “If I was the Government of Canada, I would have taken that facility.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-feds-passed-over-private-option-with-plans-to-produce-covid-19-vaccine/?fbclid=IwAR3MUxB2kR5bsgsDyTJ4yYBUvr9Ttu7bAPK7Vk6gv_8oOvINaucNMGLpSoE


----------



## CBH99

After dithering for so long on the Teek project, unable to build pipelines from Alberta to BC or Alberta to Alaska (We aren't even really 'building new pipelines' rather than mostly twinning whats already there) - failure to build LNG pipelines throughout southern Ontario and Quebec, missed opportunities to produce PPE here in Canada, and now this...

I'm honestly starting to think the LPC is actively trying to destroy our economy   :facepalm:


Even once all this Covid nonsense ends, it would be nice if there was some initiative to pursue these things.  So people have jobs to go back to.   :2c:


----------



## Stoker

Now with the vaccine starting to be delivered, I am seeing instances on various social media groups where service members stating they won't take it for whatever reason. There are regulations saying that service members must take vaccinations, and you must take them in order to deploy. In the past they haven't really pushed the Flu shot although this year some commands have stated their personnel must take it. What do people think? Will the military make this mandatory? I can very well see to enter other countries you will have to show proof of a Covid vaccination.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

The order on taking a vaccine in a military context has never been fully tested. There was a Court Martial some years ago on the subject, but IIRC, the case was dropped before it got to a decision.

So- go ahead and roll the dice, if you feel like making case law.

Me? I will do what is right and take the vaccine.


----------



## Stoker

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> The order on taking a vaccine in a military context has never been fully tested. There was a Court Martial some years ago on the subject, but IIRC, the case was dropped before it got to a decision.
> 
> So- go ahead and roll the dice, if you feel like making case law.
> 
> Me? I will do what is right and take the vaccine.



I agree but I can see in this case it being tested.


----------



## ModlrMike

There is only one case that I recall where a member was acquitted at CM for refusing vaccination. Specifically he refused the anthrax vaccine because he said it was an old and unsafe formulation. Notwithstanding, the CM appeal board disagreed, and ordered a new trial. It appears the charges were thereafter stayed.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> The order on taking a vaccine in a military context has never been fully tested. There was a Court Martial some years ago on the subject, but IIRC, the case was dropped before it got to a decision.
> 
> So- go ahead and roll the dice, if you feel like making case law.
> 
> Me? I will do what is right and take the vaccine.



I hope the AJAGs out there are brushing up on their case law for NDA Section 126 then....



> *Refusing immunization, tests, blood examination or treatment*
> 
> 126 Every person who, on receiving an order to submit to inoculation, re-inoculation, vaccination, re-vaccination, other immunization procedures, immunity tests, blood examination or treatment against any infectious disease, *wilfully and without reasonable excuse* disobeys that order is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.
> 
> R.S., c. N-4, s. 116.[/quotes


----------



## Stoker

I can very well see people who refuse to be vaccinated be denied entry to other countries, being able to fly, go on cruises or take part in activities with large amounts of people. Ontario is already taking about possible restrictions, and they are issuing proof of vaccination.


----------



## Kilted

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> Now with the vaccine starting to be delivered, I am seeing instances on various social media groups where service members stating they won't take it for whatever reason. There are regulations saying that service members must take vaccinations, and you must take them in order to deploy. In the past they haven't really pushed the Flu shot although this year some commands have stated their personnel must take it. What do people think? Will the military make this mandatory? I can very well see to enter other countries you will have to show proof of a Covid vaccination.



Well with our "patriot-hero" officer cadet leading the charge against it, you never know what might pop out of the woodwork.


----------



## mariomike

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> I can very well see people who refuse to be vaccinated be denied entry to other countries, being able to fly, go on cruises or take part in activities with large amounts of people.



I see places advertising sanitization, plexiglass, everyone wearing masks etc. I guess in the future, we are going to see signs saying, "Everyone in this store has been vaccinated." 

If employees have the right not to be vaccinated, customers also have the right to take their business elsewhere.

Where I worked, annual flu shots were mandatory. After I retired, they can choose not to. But, "Paramedics who have elected not to have the influenza vaccine will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls."

Not just during outbreaks as declared by the Medical Officer of Health. All the time. 

So, that's a bit of an incentive for them to get vaccinated.  

Edit: spelling.


----------



## CBH99

Retired RCN said:
			
		

> Now with the vaccine starting to be delivered, I am seeing instances on various social media groups where service members stating they won't take it for whatever reason. There are regulations saying that service members must take vaccinations, and you must take them in order to deploy. In the past they haven't really pushed the Flu shot although this year some commands have stated their personnel must take it. What do people think? Will the military make this mandatory? I can very well see to enter other countries you will have to show proof of a Covid vaccination.




Western militaries, especially Canada, the UK, and US - have had a few instances where mandatory vaccinations prior to deployment resulted in some pretty nasty long term side affects.  Can't blame some folks for being a little cautious or paranoid.

I absolutely plan on getting vaccinated.  I just don't want to be at the front of the line...



I will get vaccinated.  I just wish there was a way I could 'jump forward in time' by a few years to see if there are any negative side affects down the road.  (Nothing like a few vaccines developed in record speed, then vaccinating everybody right away.)


----------



## brihard

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I hope the AJAGs out there are brushing up on their case law for NDA Section 126 then....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Refusing immunization, tests, blood examination or treatment*
> 
> 126 Every person who, on receiving an order to submit to inoculation, re-inoculation, vaccination, re-vaccination, other immunization procedures, immunity tests, blood examination or treatment against any infectious disease, *wilfully and without reasonable excuse* disobeys that order is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.
> 
> R.S., c. N-4, s. 116.
Click to expand...


As alluded to above, there isn’t any conclusive case law on S.126. Military prosecutors stayed proceedings rather than push the last one of those to a retrial. There would be significant Charter issues at play. It would be interesting law for sure. I *think* CAF would win it on a Charter S.1 analysis due to the fairly unique niche CAF occupies in jurisprudence, but I’m by no means certain.

_DS edit to fix broken quote box._


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Brihard said:
			
		

> As alluded to above, there isn’t any conclusive case law on S.126. Military prosecutors stayed proceedings rather than push the last one of those to a retrial. There would be significant Charter issues at play. It would be interesting law for sure. I *think* CAF would win it on a Charter S.1 analysis due to the fairly unique niche CAF occupies in jurisprudence, but I’m by no means certain.



I think you're right that it would be an S1. Analysis win. I would love to get FJAG's view on it, as our resident JAG expert.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I will get vaccinated.  I just wish there was a way I could 'jump forward in time' by a few years to see if there are any negative side affects down the road.  (Nothing like a few vaccines developed in record speed, then vaccinating everybody right away.)



You may not have to jump forward in time, as vaccine impacts are starting to be reported: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/two-individuals-die-from-pfizer-vaccine-651488

It would be interesting to know how many people have received this vaccine, and how the death rate compares to that of actual COVID. It would be highly ironic if the death rate from Pfizer's vaccine were not appreciably smaller or even higher than if you get COVID. Would also open a whole other can of worms on workplaces mandating such a vaccine.

I am not an "anti-vaxxer" but I do have concerns about a rushed vaccine that, by virtue to the rush-job, has had no testing for long-term effects. Taking the vaccine is a roll of the dice on your long-term health since it's a complete unknown. As far as I know, the fastest a vaccine was ever approved previously was 4 years (Ebola vaccine). The typical length of time for a vaccine to be developed is between 10 and 15 years. Surely it is legitimate to question such a vastly sped-up process?


----------



## brihard

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> You may not have to jump forward in time, as vaccine impacts are starting to be reported: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/two-individuals-die-from-pfizer-vaccine-651488
> 
> It would be interesting to know how many people have received this vaccine, and how the death rate compares to that of actual COVID. It would be highly ironic if the death rate from Pfizer's vaccine were not appreciably smaller or even higher than if you get COVID. Would also open a whole other can of worms on workplaces mandating such a vaccine.
> 
> I am not an "anti-vaxxer" but I do have concerns about a rushed vaccine that, by virtue to the rush-job, has had no testing for long-term effects. Taking the vaccine is a roll of the dice on your long-term health since it's a complete unknown. As far as I know, the fastest a vaccine was ever approved previously was 4 years (Ebola vaccine). The typical length of time for a vaccine to be developed is between 10 and 15 years. Surely it is legitimate to question such a vastly sped-up process?



You’re getting correlation and causality mixed up. In the same study, four members of  the control group who did not receive the actual vaccine also died.



			
				Jerusalem Post said:
			
		

> The association noted that in large trials of tens of thousands of people, death can occur without any connection to the trial, but that companies such as Pfizer are required to report those deaths.
> “According to the published data, six of the participants in the experiment died, two of whom received the vaccine and four of the control group,” said Dr. Uri Lerner, the scientific director for Midaat. “After an in-depth examination, no connection was found between the experiment and the cause of death.”


----------



## mariomike

Some in the emergency services may refuse the vaccine.

A recent internal FDNY survey revealed that more than half of the department's firefighters won't take the COVID-19 vaccine.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=VvrQX-aYF-Oiggf86JvACw&q=fdny+cacine&oq=fdny+cacine&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIHCAAQyQMQDToICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOg4ILhCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoCCAA6FAguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCEMkDEJMCOgUILhCxAzoICC4QxwEQrwE6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEK8BOhEILhCxAxDHARCjAhDJAxCTAjoFCAAQyQM6AgguOgkIABDJAxAWEB46BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAFQ0wtYrTBg9zJoAHAAeACAAcsCiAGsDpIBBzEuNy4yLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjmm-L-p8HtAhVjkeAKHXz0BrgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1607531103788


----------



## ModlrMike

> According to the published data, six of the participants in the experiment died, two of whom received the vaccine and four of the control group,” said Dr. Uri Lerner, the scientific director for Midaat.



By that measure, not getting the vaccine is twice as deadly as getting it.

Context is everything.


----------



## dimsum

Health Canada approves Pfizer's vaccine.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-rollout-plan-phac-1.5833912?fbclid=IwAR3vW4SF2PPtBFzZObnM76ghnusrvwhNIEBxn3N8JvoRh9uWzzIb41PbtHA


----------



## PMedMoe

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> You may not have to jump forward in time, as vaccine impacts are starting to be reported: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/two-individuals-die-from-pfizer-vaccine-651488
> 
> It would be interesting to know how many people have received this vaccine, and how the death rate compares to that of actual COVID. It would be highly ironic if the death rate from Pfizer's vaccine were not appreciably smaller or even higher than if you get COVID. Would also open a whole other can of worms on workplaces mandating such a vaccine.
> 
> I am not an "anti-vaxxer" but I do have concerns about a rushed vaccine that, by virtue to the rush-job, has had no testing for long-term effects. Taking the vaccine is a roll of the dice on your long-term health since it's a complete unknown. As far as I know, the fastest a vaccine was ever approved previously was 4 years (Ebola vaccine). The typical length of time for a vaccine to be developed is between 10 and 15 years. Surely it is legitimate to question such a vastly sped-up process?




Agree with what Brihard said.  Lines up with this: Pfizer Shot Effective, Safe, FDA Staff Says Before Meeting

"Six people died in the clinical trial of almost 44,000 participants, two in the group that received the vaccine and four in the placebo group. The two in the vaccine group were older than 55. One died of cardiac arrest 62 days after vaccination and the other from arteriosclerosis, a condition where blood vessels can harden with age, three days after vaccination.

“All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age groups where they occurred, at a similar rate,” the report said."


As far as the vaccine coming out so fast, the biggest misconception is the work on the vaccine started when the pandemic began. 

Oxford vaccine: How did they make it so quickly?


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some in the emergency services may refuse the vaccine.
> 
> A recent internal FDNY survey revealed that more than half of the department's firefighters won't take the COVID-19 vaccine.
> https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=VvrQX-aYF-Oiggf86JvACw&q=fdny+cacine&oq=fdny+cacine&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIHCAAQyQMQDToICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOg4ILhCxAxCDARDHARCjAjoCCAA6FAguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCEMkDEJMCOgUILhCxAzoICC4QxwEQrwE6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEK8BOhEILhCxAxDHARCjAhDJAxCTAjoFCAAQyQM6AgguOgkIABDJAxAWEB46BggAEBYQHjoFCCEQoAFQ0wtYrTBg9zJoAHAAeACAAcsCiAGsDpIBBzEuNy4yLjGYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjmm-L-p8HtAhVjkeAKHXz0BrgQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1607531103788



Interestingly, locally, the police have refused to wear PPE. Not sure what their position will be on vaccines. Really not sure what is up with that. Would be interesting to know the reasons behind FDNY's reluctance.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Brihard said:
			
		

> You’re getting correlation and causality mixed up. In the same study, four members of  the control group who did not receive the actual vaccine also died.



Good point. Also contrary to the headline it does not say what killed any of them. So we don't know if the control group died of old age, car accident, heart attack, or if the vaccine killed the vaccine takers.

I'm still skeptical of the safety of something rushed to market this fast, however.


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Good point. Also contrary to the headline it does not say what killed any of them. So we don't know if the control group died of old age, car accident, heart attack, or if the vaccine killed the vaccine takers.
> 
> I'm still skeptical of the safety of something rushed to market this fast, however.



The actual science and development of the vaccine isn’t what was rushed though.  The business side for sales, distribution and approvals was. 

That being said I don’t mind being at the end of the line for this.  I can wait for phase 3.

I’m hoping for superpowers as a side effect but I’ll at least get to see the initial reactions for a few months ... ;D


----------



## mariomike

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Would be interesting to know the reasons behind FDNY's reluctance.





> “The 55 percent doesn’t surprise me. They’re called the Bravest, not the Smartest,” the FDNY member said.
> https://nypost.com/2020/12/05/these-nyc-first-responders-fear-covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:
			
		

> The actual science and development of the vaccine isn’t what was rushed though.  The business side for sales, distribution and approvals was.



I think that's a key fact what people missed. All the big companies knew they'd make money on a potential vaccine. What Warp Speed and all the other government grants did was allow them to hire more scientists and take the risk on mass producing the vaccine once they decided it was viable enough through Stage 2 trials. Normally these companies wouldn't risk the massive amounts of capital required to make a billion vaccine doses unless they were assured to get FDA approvals. Removing the capital risk took years off the process.

I'm the same as you, Remius. I'm not in a hurry for a vaccine. I'd much rather we give it to the actual demographics who are at risk for COVID-19 complications and we remove all public health restrictions once those people are protected. Notice (and I know this isn't the political thread) that no politicians are outlining what benchmark stops all these draconian emergency orders. How many people need to be vaccinated? Is it when hospitalization drops below a threshold? The lack of transparency really troubles me.


----------



## QV

https://www.jccf.ca/government-data-shows-lockdowns-more-deadly-than-covid-19/



> CALGARY: The Justice Centre  today released a Charter analysis on the impact of lockdowns on the lives of Canadians. Titled “Flying Blind,” this Charter analysis demonstrates that Canada’s federal and provincial governments have not properly and adequately considered the specific nature and the full extent of lockdown harms that result from the violations of Charter freedoms to move, travel, assemble, associate and worship.
> 
> Fewer Canadians are dying in 2020
> 
> With COVID-19 touted by politicians and chief medical officers as an unusually deadly killer that everyone should fear greatly, one might expect an increase in death rates amongst Canadians. But in fact, deaths for the period from January 1 to August 31, compared for 2016 through 2020, show that fewer Canadians are dying in 2020 than in 2019, even while Canada’s population grows.


----------



## OldSolduer

As an immune suppressed individual I am going to wait until its proven this vaccine doesn't turn us into zombies.  :stirpot:


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:
			
		

> https://www.jccf.ca/government-data-shows-lockdowns-more-deadly-than-covid-19/



Hmmm....

The Far Right Dark Money Network Behind Conservative Politics: The Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms

Money from wealthy right-wing ideologues helps fuel group challenging Alberta's protections for GSA members


But, I'm not surprised that you're taking their word as gospel.   :


----------



## PuckChaser

Rabble and North99 are your cited sources (hidden until you click on the link no less)? That's like trying to use The Blaze or Rebel News to rebut someone's argument...


----------



## PMedMoe

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Rabble and North99 are your cited sources (hidden until you click on the link no less)? That's like trying to use The Blaze or Rebel News to rebut someone's argument...



Well, it was kind of tit for tat, what with JCCF being endorsed by Ezra Lavant and Rebel Media.  

So, six of one, half dozen of the other.  *shrug*

Maybe people who post links from right-wing sites should be called out as much as those who post links from left-wing sites.  :dunno:


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, it was kind of tit for tat, what with JCCF being endorsed by Ezra Lavant and Rebel Media.
> 
> So, six of one, half dozen of the other.  *shrug*
> 
> Maybe people who post links from right-wing sites should be called out as much as those who post links from left-wing sites.  :dunno:



As for the JCCF, here is their vision:



> Equal Treatment
> Each and every Canadian is treated equally by governments and by the courts, regardless of race, ancestry, ethnicity, age, gender, beliefs, or other personal characteristics.
> 
> Free to Express
> All Canadians are free to express peacefully their thoughts, opinions and beliefs without fear of persecution or oppression.
> 
> Control One's Destiny
> All Canadians have the right and self-determination to make fundamental life choices for themselves and their children as free and responsible members of our society.
> 
> Preserve Human Rights
> Every Canadian has the understanding and determination to recognize, protect and preserve their human rights and constitutional freedoms.
> 
> Individual Freedom
> People can enjoy individual freedom as responsible members of a free society.



Aside from that, is their data and their argument wrong?


----------



## Remius

Possibly.  I'd have to look at their data a bit more in depth.  But a few things set off alarm bells.  

The premise is that lock downs cause more harm than good.  Yet fewer people are dying?  Seems like a disconnect. 

Also lockdowns happened in March here.  Why are they using and including data for Jan or Feb? 

It looks like cherry picking data.  But admittedly I haven't dived to deep into it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Putting the vulnerable at the front of the queue is one choice; putting the most likely (whether by necessity or choice) spreaders at the front is another.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:
			
		

> Aside from that, is their data and their argument wrong?



Could be: https://www.statista.com/statistics/443061/number-of-deaths-in-canada/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Putting the vulnerable at the front of the queue is one choice; putting the most likely (whether by necessity or choice) spreaders at the front is another.



The vaccine is not cleared for kids yet from what I hear and better to see effect on people with a more limited lifespan, we seen what happens when you rush the production of medicine before.


----------



## CBH99

The UK is already warning folks not to get the vaccine right away if they have serious allergies, after 2 hospital workers had reactions.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-k-to-refine-allergy-warning-on-pfizer-vaccine-sparked-by-two-adverse-reactions-1.5223107


I'm just posting this for info, not to discourage anybody from receiving a vaccine.  

But since we were just chatting about some folks wanting to maybe wait a bit to see if there were any negative side affects before getting it, this article seems to have come up right as we were chatting about these kinds of things.


Cheers


----------



## CBH99

https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.5224860


Charge the prick.  Seriously.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:
			
		

> The UK is already warning folks not to get the vaccine right away if they have serious allergies, after 2 hospital workers had reactions.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-k-to-refine-allergy-warning-on-pfizer-vaccine-sparked-by-two-adverse-reactions-1.5223107
> 
> 
> I'm just posting this for info, not to discourage anybody from receiving a vaccine.
> 
> But since we were just chatting about some folks wanting to maybe wait a bit to see if there were any negative side affects before getting it, this article seems to have come up right as we were chatting about these kinds of things.
> 
> 
> Cheers



Some are of the same opinion when entering minefields: "1 section, you're point!"


----------



## lenaitch

CBH99 said:
			
		

> https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.5224860
> 
> 
> Charge the prick.  Seriously.



In addition to health-related legislation (failure to quarantine), criminal charges of Mischief Endangering Life and Criminal Negligence come to mind.


----------



## daftandbarmy

lenaitch said:
			
		

> In addition to health-related legislation (failure to quarantine), criminal charges of Mischief Endangering Life and Criminal Negligence come to mind.



And 'sober, yet clearly behaving like a gobby drunk in public' too, right?


----------



## brihard

lenaitch said:
			
		

> In addition to health-related legislation (failure to quarantine), criminal charges of Mischief Endangering Life and Criminal Negligence come to mind.



Check out ‘Common Nuisance’, CC 180. It’s a beautiful but rarely seen charge.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Some are of the same opinion when entering minefields: "1 section, you're point!"




 :rofl:


----------



## dapaterson

Ah, Texas.



> The wedding photographer had already spent an hour or two inside with the unmasked wedding party when one of the bridesmaids approached her. The woman thanked her for still showing up, considering “everything that’s going on with the groom.”
> 
> When the photographer asked what she meant by that, the bridesmaid said the groom had tested positive for COVID-19 the day before. “She was looking for me to be like, ‘Oh, that’s crazy,’ like I was going to agree with her that it was fine,” the photographer recalls. “So I was like, ‘What are you talking about?’ And she was like, ‘Oh no no no, don’t freak out. He doesn’t have symptoms. He’s fine.’”
> 
> The photographer, who has asthma and three kids, left with her assistant before the night was over. Her exit was tense. The wedding planner said it was the most unprofessional thing she’d ever seen. Bridesmaids accused her of heartlessly ruining an innocent woman’s wedding day. She recalls one bridesmaid telling her, “I’m a teacher, I have fourteen students. If I’m willing to risk it, why aren’t you?”



https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/texas-wedding-photographers-have-seen-some/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Alberta....

But shouldn't the mascot be wearing a cowboy hat and emerge from a Diesel Ford 350? 

Alberta unveils menacing COVID-19 mascot in new ad campaign

The Alberta government is hoping a new advertising campaign featuring a frightening, personified COVID-19 virus can persuade younger Albertans to follow public-health orders.

The province launched the covidloves.ca website Friday morning alongside two 30-second advertisements showing a man wearing a large, menacing head shaped like COVID-19’s viral structure. The mascot does not have an official name but one Alberta Health official suggested Mr. COVID.

In the first ad, Mr. COVID is seen entering a home Christmas gathering, where he is greeted as “uncle Mike.” He enjoys some eggnog, bounces his nephew on his knee and digs in for a family meal around the dinner table. In the second spot, Mr. COVID attends a raucous house party, where he’s a hit on the dance floor, and even leans in for a kiss with a potential romantic partner.

“Nobody loves a house party more than COVID,” the ad reads.

The campaign is targeted at Albertans under the age of 40, according to Alberta Health spokesperson Tom McMillan. The entire campaign, which will include additional ads released “on a regular basis,” has a price tag of $2 million.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/alberta-unveils-menacing-covid-19-mascot-in-new-ad-campaign/ar-BB1bRdI4


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, in Alberta....
> 
> But shouldn't the mascot be wearing a cowboy hat and emerge from a Diesel Ford 350?



Wrong demographic.  That part of the Alberta stereotype listened mostly to the Premier when he said "“It’s no secret that I do not want to take an approach that restricts people’s fundamental rights and freedoms, . . . ".  Anything else he said just went in one ear and out the other.


----------



## daftandbarmy

BC's Premier brags, but seems to be chucking bricks in his glass house....

_According to federal government data, Alberta currently has 483 active cases of COVID-19 per 100,000 residents, while B.C. has 219. But for several weeks, the province has had about double the active cases as Ontario on a per capita basis (114 per 100,000).
_

'We have been successful': B.C. premier downplays infection numbers as new record broken

On the day British Columbia broke yet another record for COVID-19 hospitalizations and infection numbers remained high, the premier called the province's approach successful.

John Horgan held a media availability on Tuesday where his opening remarks included a small boast about how B.C. has fared against Alberta in the past week, neglecting to compare his jurisdiction to other populous provinces with significantly fewer active cases per capita.

“We have been successful, compared to our neighbours — an example, over the past seven days there have been 7,000 more cases of COVID-19 in Alberta than there have been here in British Columbia,” said Horgan. “Although the numbers are unacceptably high here in British Columbia, we together have flattened the curve over the past couple of weeks.”

An outbreak was declared over at Burnaby Hospital. Just 4 days later, a 2nd was reported.

According to federal government data, Alberta currently has 483 active cases of COVID-19 per 100,000 residents, while B.C. has 219. But for several weeks, the province has had about double the active cases as Ontario on a per capita basis (114 per 100,000).

B.C. also has more cases per capita than Quebec (196 per 100,000), where strict new lockdown measures were announced for a “circuit breaker” over the holidays, just hours after Horgan was challenged on his rosy spin on the numbers.

“We’ve seen an unacceptable increase in fatalities, largely as a result of COVID returning to our long-term care institutions and we need to work harder in that area,” insisted Horgan. “That's the real difference between what's happening in Ontario at the moment and what's happening in British Columbia.”

But that message appears to be at odds with provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry's explanation of where the infections are now taking place: rather than large gatherings or care homes, she says they’re now taking place primarily at workplaces and within households.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/we-have-been-successful-b-c-premier-downplays-infection-numbers-as-new-record-broken-1.5233073


----------



## lenaitch

Brihard said:
			
		

> Check out ‘Common Nuisance’, CC 180. It’s a beautiful but rarely seen charge.



Ah, yes.  Forgot about that one.  I was always a fan of Conspiracy when more than one player was involved but it seemed to scare the pants off most local Crowns.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Ah, Texas.
> 
> https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/texas-wedding-photographers-have-seen-some/



Lord love a duck!!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Government: listen to the experts (like medical officers)! 

Experts: "I dont know why i bring so many papers.I never look at them.I just say whatever they write down for me"

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontario-health-official-responds-after-being-caught-on-hot-mic-before-covid-19-briefing-1.5233742


----------



## dimsum

NPR review of an MTV documentary about the efforts in Feb in Wuhan.



> A Doc About Wuhan's Lockdown Was 'Too Real' For My Wuhan-Born Dad. I'm Glad I Watched
> 
> Several medical workers in hazmat suits sprint across the hallway. A heart-wrenching wail pierces the air — "Baba!" — from a woman watching as her father's lifeless body is wheeled away. The opening scene of 76 Days, a new documentary about the resilience of front-line workers and patients in the 76 days of Wuhan, China's lockdown, directed by Hao Wu, Weixi Chen and a journalist credited as "Anonymous," throws the viewer right into the fray of body bags and ventilators, mirroring the helplessness and frenzy at the start of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> My dad and I start watching in silence, with only the occasional popping sound of microwave popcorn breaking the tension. Less than five minutes in, my dad shoots up from the couch and walks away, muttering, "It's too real. ... I can't do it."
> 
> [More on link]



https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/12/19/947946765/a-doc-about-wuhans-lockdown-was-too-real-for-my-wuhan-born-dad-im-glad-i-watched?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&fbclid=IwAR3wDUspLaVqNERpVX8SdASqHqQntg_5Rjl7GYO1RWCcJMN97TavGl2CeO4


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Government: listen to the experts (like medical officers)!
> 
> Experts: "I dont know why i bring so many papers.I never look at them.I just say whatever they write down for me"
> 
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ontario-health-official-responds-after-being-caught-on-hot-mic-before-covid-19-briefing-1.5233742


To be fair to the experts, I suspect every word they're "told" to say has been approved by the very experts themselves and their political bosses.  We don't know all the options they lay out to the politicians, so we don't know how much they can't say once the politicians decide what'll happen next.  That's true with all sorts of government bureaucrats & expert advisors.

And having dealt first-hand with one of the experts in question in one of my previous lives (he was also doing public health work then), I know he's no dummy & takes public health very seriously.


----------



## dapaterson

NOTAM issued restricting flights from the UK effective midnight, per CBC reporter Ashley Burke.

https://twitter.com/AshleyBurkeCBC/status/1340811086317150214


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> NOTAM issued restricting flights from the UK effective midnight, per CBC reporter Ashley Burke.
> 
> https://twitter.com/AshleyBurkeCBC/status/1340811086317150214



The new way of defining a pariah state!


----------



## brihard

Looks like Ontario’s going full lockdown for 28 days (except in the north) on Christmas Eve. We’ve been over 2k new cases a day for most of a week now. Serious risk of ICU overload if this keeps up. Hopefully this works, and breaks enough transmission chains... the province will only be able to vaccinate a quarter million people per month for the first little while, that simply isn’t going to cut it on its own.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-covid-19-update-december-20-1.5849274


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And almost every news agency says Ontario is going into a 28 day lockdown starting Christmas Eve.


----------



## PuckChaser

Lockdown hasn't worked yet, why would it work now? Toronto has been locked down for over a month, cases got worse. Businesses aren't the cause of these outbreaks and the people who aren't following the 10 people social gathering limit won't follow it when the limit is no social gatherings.

Lockdowns sure make it look like the government is doing something, but the statistics are saying otherwise.


----------



## mariomike

Brihard said:
			
		

> Serious risk of ICU overload if this keeps up. Hopefully this works, and breaks enough transmission chains... the province will only be able to vaccinate a quarter million people per month for the first little while, that simply isn’t going to cut it on its own.



Well said.

Travel nurses are raking in big bucks as the NYC public hospital system is filing its ranks with temps to give COVID shots, some earning as much as $11,000 a week.
https://nypost.com/2020/12/19/travel-nurses-are-making-11k-a-week-to-give-covid-vaccines/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPMetroTwitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow
Yes, 11,000 a week to give COVID-19 shots.


----------



## suffolkowner

I haven't had time to digest it yet but this article looks into the effectiveness of social interventions

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/12/15/science.abd9338


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Lockdown hasn't worked yet, why would it work now? Toronto has been locked down for over a month, cases got worse. Businesses aren't the cause of these outbreaks and the people who aren't following the 10 people social gathering limit won't follow it when the limit is no social gatherings.
> 
> Lockdowns sure make it look like the government is doing something, but the statistics are saying otherwise.





I agree somewhat.....since we're letting inmates out of jail by the hundreds, I doubt they're going to arrest those breaking the lockdown.
So if shooting them is out of the question all we can do is fine them....and most wont care until several years down the road, or at all.  Its a major catch-22.


----------



## mariomike

9:00 p.m. in Coronavirus Square NYC ...because even in a pandemic the show must go on.


----------



## Jarnhamar

If the GTA could knock off the house parties and traveling for a while that'd be great.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Is it parties or perhaps there are tens of thousands of dwellings that contain large numbers of residents- multigenerational homes, shared spaces, - all of which likely contain multiples of people working 1-3 jobs each, going to school etc.  You can’t small bubble some people’s homes and working lives. 

I’ll give you an example. The 2 new Canadians that bought Shoppers Drug mart in my town terminated all of the staff and brought in their own. They are all either related or from sort of “clan” for want of a better word. Now everybody in their families work there, and they all live together,  They bought out the new Tim Hortons and so that’s their second job.  

The key COVID thing: all generations in their families live in and amongst 3 modest sized homes that they bought and paid cash for. When one of them gets sick they should all isolate 14 days right? Do you think anybody in a situation like that is going to get a covid test, or even be allowed to obtain such as test.  We need this drug store to remain open, and it will but my goodness what a risk.


----------



## CBH99

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Is it parties or perhaps there are tens of thousands of dwellings that contain large numbers of residents- multigenerational homes, shared spaces, - all of which likely contain multiples of people working 1-3 jobs each, going to school etc.  You can’t small bubble some people’s homes and working lives.
> 
> I’ll give you an example. The 2 new Canadians that bought Shoppers Drug mart in my town terminated all of the staff and brought in their own. They are all either related or from sort of “clan” for want of a better word. Now everybody in their families work there, and they all live together,  They bought out the new Tim Hortons and so that’s their second job.
> 
> The key COVID thing: all generations in their families live in and amongst 3 modest sized homes that they bought and paid cash for. When one of them gets sick they should all isolate 14 days right? Do you think anybody in a situation like that is going to get a covid test, or even be allowed to obtain such as test.  We need this drug store to remain open, and it will but my goodness what a risk.




I gave you Milpoints because I genuinely found that to be informative.  I hadn't thought much of it from that perspective, and you are right.  One of my buddies is Filipino, who lives with 2 generations of his family.  And there is actually another 3 generation family in the same household.  Hadn't really given it much thought until your post.  

 :cheers:


----------



## PMedMoe

In Kingston, about two-thirds of the present cases can be linked to either off-campus parties (Queen's students) and members of the Third Day Worship Centre.   :not-again:


----------



## daftandbarmy

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Is it parties or perhaps there are tens of thousands of dwellings that contain large numbers of residents- multigenerational homes, shared spaces, - all of which likely contain multiples of people working 1-3 jobs each, going to school etc.  You can’t small bubble some people’s homes and working lives.
> 
> I’ll give you an example. The 2 new Canadians that bought Shoppers Drug mart in my town terminated all of the staff and brought in their own. They are all either related or from sort of “clan” for want of a better word. Now everybody in their families work there, and they all live together,  They bought out the new Tim Hortons and so that’s their second job.
> 
> The key COVID thing: all generations in their families live in and amongst 3 modest sized homes that they bought and paid cash for. When one of them gets sick they should all isolate 14 days right? Do you think anybody in a situation like that is going to get a covid test, or even be allowed to obtain such as test.  We need this drug store to remain open, and it will but my goodness what a risk.



Similar situations in the Fraser Valley are driving COVID rates through the roof:

CHART: Abbotsford and Chilliwack have some of B.C.’s highest rates of new COVID-19 cases
Nearly 500 people tested positive for the virus last week in the two Fraser Valley cities.

Nearly 500 Abbotsford and Chilliwack residents tested positive for COVID-19 just last week, according to new data released by the BC Centre for Disease Control.

Between Nov. 29 and Dec. 5, 352 Abbotsford residents and 140 Chilliwack residents tested positive for the virus. Those rates put the two Fraser Valley cities among the 10 B.C. communities hardest hit by COVID-19 during that time period. Mission saw 45 cases, while nine were reported in Agassiz-Harrison.

On a per capita basis, Abbotsford saw the third-highest rates of cases, with 223 cases per 100,000 people. Only Surrey (318) and the Nisga’a region (574) saw a higher rate of cases. With 133 cases per 100,000 people, Chilliwack had the eighth-highest rate in the province.


More than 1,800 Abbotsford residents and 600 Chilliwack residents have tested positive for the virus since the pandemic began.

Cases (January – November):

Abbotsford: 1,837
Chilliwack: 601
Mission (including Mission Institution): 396
Agassiz-Harrison: 66
Hope: 18

https://www.abbynews.com/news/chart-abbotsford-and-chilliwack-have-some-of-b-c-s-highest-rates-of-covid-19-cases/


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Lockdown hasn't worked yet, why would it work now? Toronto has been locked down for over a month, cases got worse. Businesses aren't the cause of these outbreaks and the people who aren't following the 10 people social gathering limit won't follow it when the limit is no social gatherings.
> 
> Lockdowns sure make it look like the government is doing something, but the statistics are saying otherwise.



Lockdowns are a sign of failure.  They demonstrate clearly that all measures leading up to the point a Government decides to impose the strictest of measures have failed.  

How successful a Country has been in fending off COVID is directly related to how quickly they closed their borders and limited access to the Country.  

Norway and Sweden are interesting Countries to look at because as far as public policy is concerned, their approach has been radically similar.  Norway has never locked down, never shut down any businesses and has encouraged voluntary compliance with social distancing, etc.

The big difference in impact of COVID cases basically boils down to Norwegians choosing not to vacation abroad back in March while Swedes all headed South and brought the disease back home.

What I also find very interesting is what's going on in Sweden right now.  They have had a re-emergence of COVID but the number of deaths is far lower than in the Spring with the curve now downtrending. Looking at the stats, their strategy appears to be working but they now want lockdowns and there is political pressure for a huge pivot.  What it looks like to me is people are looking for a scapegoat to blame for problems that were largely their own doing.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Lockdown hasn't worked yet, why would it work now? Toronto has been locked down for over a month, cases got worse. Businesses aren't the cause of these outbreaks and the people who aren't following the 10 people social gathering limit won't follow it when the limit is no social gatherings.



This.

If anything, I wonder if lockdowns don't make the spread worse, since it drives social interaction "underground" where people are less likely to social distance, wear masks, or sterilize, or even adhere to reasonable number limits -- whereas if they are allowed to go to church, go to a coffee shop, etc those things will be in place, and if people are allowed a reasonable gathering they might satisfy themselves with that. Whereas when anything above zero is a "crime" they must just figure might as well go big and have a larger gathering.

Furthermore, I think that a lockdown starting Christmas Eve could have very dire negative impact on mental health that is worse than any theoretical spread there might be from allowing people to worship God on His birthday. Christmas is a major holiday for Christians but even for non-Christians it is a very important time of year. Many people say it is the only truly joyful day of the year. Even delaying the lockdown one day could prevent a lot of very negative mental health consequences.


----------



## mariomike

Lots of opinions on social media. I read them as entertainment only, and follow ( as best I can ) the local health dept. directives.

The only real sure thing in this town are our three emergency services. They will be in my thoughts as they work through this difficult holiday season.
https://www.thestar.com/sponsored_sections/salute-to-frontline-workers/paramedics-heading-the-frontlines.html


----------



## Retired AF Guy

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Is it parties or perhaps there are tens of thousands of dwellings that contain large numbers of residents- multigenerational homes, shared spaces, - all of which likely contain multiples of people working 1-3 jobs each, going to school etc.  You can’t small bubble some people’s homes and working lives.
> 
> I’ll give you an example. The 2 new Canadians that bought Shoppers Drug mart in my town terminated all of the staff and brought in their own. They are all either related or from sort of “clan” for want of a better word. Now everybody in their families work there, and they all live together,  They bought out the new Tim Hortons and so that’s their second job.
> 
> The key COVID thing: all generations in their families live in and amongst 3 modest sized homes that they bought and paid cash for. When one of them gets sick they should all isolate 14 days right? Do you think anybody in a situation like that is going to get a covid test, or even be allowed to obtain such as test.  We need this drug store to remain open, and it will but my goodness what a risk.



This CBC article from Nov 17 looks at the disproportionate effect the COVID-19 virus is having on visible minorities and some of the factors responsible for the increase are adequate housing and income (or lack of). 



> COVID-19 mortality rate higher in neighbourhoods with more visible minorities: StatsCan
> 
> 
> 
> Quebec, B.C. aren't collecting ethnicity data on positive cases and deaths despite repeated calls to do so
> 
> Tara Carman · CBC News · Posted: Nov 17, 2020 1:00 AM PT | Last Updated: November 17
> 
> Residents of communities home to more visible minorities had a higher likelihood of dying from COVID-19 in Canada's three largest provinces, according to Statistics Canada, in a trend health experts say underscores the need for provinces such as B.C. and Quebec to improve their data collection on race and mortality.
> 
> A report issued by StatsCan late last month looking into COVID-19 mortality rates in "ethno-cultural neighbourhoods" found communities in B.C. that were home to more than 25 per cent visible minorities had an age-adjusted COVID-19 mortality rate that was 10 times higher than neighbourhoods that were less than one per cent visible minority.
> 
> In Ontario and Quebec, neighbourhoods with large visible minority populations had age-adjusted mortality rates three times higher than the general public.
> 
> That COVID-19 deaths in B.C.'s ethno-cultural neighbourhoods are ten times higher than comparable rates for Canada's broader population could be partially linked to a lower general death rate in the province.
> 
> As of Monday, 299 people with the virus had died in B.C., out of more than 11,000 deaths across Canada.
> 
> The Statistics Canada analysis was compiled when B.C. had fewer than 200 coronavirus deaths. But the analysis is part of a growing body of literature showing that visible minority communities in Canada have been hit harder by the virus than the general population.
> 
> Dr. Andrew Boozary, the executive director of Social Medicine and Population Health at the University Health Network in Toronto, said it's important to have specific, reliable data so affected populations can be protected.
> 
> "We've not been a leader on that front and it has been awfully expensive in not allowing our response to be as precise as we hoped, but also not allowing us to galvanize the response as quickly as we should have."
> 'Extremely important to be collecting that data'
> 
> Unlike Ontario, Quebec and B.C. are still not collecting the data that would identify which communities are most at risk, or why they are at risk, despite repeated calls to do so.
> 
> One of those calls is from B.C.'s Human Rights Commissioner, Kasari Govender, who said data on COVID-19 deaths and ethnicity is urgently needed to understand why members of different communities who get the coronavirus may be dying at higher rates and to establish how to address the problem.
> 
> "It's, I think, extremely important to be collecting that data," said Govender, whose office put out a report in September about how data on ethnicity, among other things, could be collected in B.C. "Now, we're not going to get the data overnight. So the sooner we start collecting, the sooner we can work and put in place good, strong policies."
> 
> Provincial Health Officer Dr. Bonnie Henry supports collecting this data, B.C. Health Ministry spokesperson Stephen May said in a statement, but "due to the surge in cases and demand on Public Health resources, data on race is not currently being collected at the point of care, with the exception of data on Indigeneity."
> 
> B.C. is working with the federal government on a national framework to collect such data, May added.
> 
> Ontario has been collecting data on socioeconomic indicators, including ethnicity and income, for several months.
> 
> The City of Toronto has released such data, and the results have brought to light serious concerns about structural racism and how it affects health outcomes, said Dr. Boozary.
> 
> "We see more than 80 per cent of cases happening in visible minorities. And we see over 50 per cent to 60 per cent of the cases in low-income households," he noted.
> 
> "This isn't about a deficiency in people or communities. These are structural deficiencies that we've allowed to take place because of structural racism, because of structural discrimination toward certain populations."
> 
> In cities where neighbourhood or ethnicity-specific data has been released, it is known which groups have been most affected.
> 
> In Toronto, the data showed the Black, South Asian, Arab, Southeast Asian and Latin American communities were over-represented among COVID-19 cases. Whites and East Asians were under-represented. It also showed households with incomes under $50,000 to be over-represented among confirmed cases.
> 
> Quebec does not collect ethnicity or income data on confirmed COVID-19 cases, but Montreal Public Health released neighbourhood-level data, which CBC News compared with Census data from 2016 on visible minority status, income level and housing suitability.
> 
> CBC's analysis found neighbourhoods with higher proportions of Black people and overcrowded households had also registered the most COVID-19 cases in Montreal.
> 
> No data in B.C.
> 
> In B.C., it's not known which groups are most affected, because the province is not collecting the data.
> 
> There has been a disproportionate increase in COVID-19 cases among B.C.'s South Asian population, Dr. Henry told a group of Punjabi language media outlets last week. She emphasized the spread of the virus does not have to do with ethnicity, but with situations, such as indoor gatherings and events, that allow it to spread.
> 
> Govender said there are likely different factors at play for different communities. Filipino workers, for example, are more likely to be in front-line, public-facing jobs such as caregiving that can't be done from home. Indigenous populations, who are not included in Statistics Canada's definition of visible minority, may face challenges in getting access to the health care they need, she said.
> 
> Boozary said the fact that COVID-19 is more prevalent among low-income and racialized communities should not come as a surprise.
> 
> "When you look at anything from diabetes to cancer to some of the heart and lung conditions that we have, it has always been highly concentrated amongst people living in poverty and in racialized communities," he said.
> 
> "Most everyone in public health could have predicted where COVID was going to be most concentrated because of the structural vulnerabilities, because of the impossible situations that certain populations and neighbourhoods are in."
> 
> One of those situations is overcrowded housing, a significant problem in some of B.C.'s most affected regions.
> 
> Lack of space
> 
> Boozary and other researchers interviewed by CBC News all said unsuitable housing, defined by Statistics Canada as dwellings that do not have enough bedrooms for the size and composition of the household, is an indicator of COVID-19 risk because it makes it difficult or impossible for an infected family member to isolate.
> 
> The neighbourhoods with the highest proportions of overcrowded households in 2016, the most recent year for which Census data is available, were mostly in the north end of Surrey, about 45 minutes east of Vancouver, which is home to a high proportion of South Asian residents and new immigrants.
> 
> Surrey is also the city with B.C.'s highest number of COVID-19 infections.
> 
> Health officials in B.C. have not released COVID-19 data that is any more granular than city-level, so it's not known where specifically the most cases have been reported.
> 
> Khim Tan is the deputy executive director of employment and immigrant services with Options Community Services Society, which does community outreach in north Surrey.
> 
> Tan said finding housing for newly-arrived immigrant families of sometimes eight or 10 people has been a challenge for years. Many, she said, wind up in basement suites in Newton, Whalley or Guildford, because those areas are more affordable and home to immigrant communities from many countries.
> 
> COVID-19 has brought the issue of insufficient space into stark focus.
> 
> "What we're seeing is that many newcomer families, especially the large families ... don't have the luxury of moving to a bigger space when a family member gets infected."
> 
> Tan said Fraser Health has done a good job of creating and translating culturally specific health information, such as how to put a mask on with a turban or hijab, or how to safely celebrate Diwali.
> 
> And Dr. Henry has cautioned people living in intergenerational households to think about seniors or others who may be vulnerable when considering riskier activities such as indoor fitness classes.
> 
> But public health officials have been silent or vague on how to isolate or minimize transmission in households where there isn't enough space for the number of people, or what the concept of a "safe six" means for a family of 10.
> 
> When CBC News asked the BC Centre for Disease Control what guidance was available for people in these situations, we were referred to a tip sheet for residents of apartments and multi-unit buildings.
> 
> Tan said that despite the lack of official guidance, people are taking care of one another.
> 
> "We have so many families living in very limited spaces and obviously there has been COVID cases. But one thing we have found ... is that families are resilient. They find ways to manage. They find ways to isolate the family member that might be sick or with COVID within tight quarters," she said.
> 
> "The support is there in terms of bringing food to a family that may not be able to leave the house as much because they have to self isolate. So we've seen amazing behaviour shifts."
> 
> 
> About the Author
> 
> Tara Carman. Senior Reporter, Data Journalist
> 
> Tara Carman is a senior reporter with CBC Investigates who specializes in finding the human stories buried in big data. She holds an international relations degree from UBC and a master's degree in journalism from Carleton. She lives in Vancouver. You can reach her at tara.carman@cbc.ca or on Twitter @tarajcarman.



Original story has more photos/graphs/maps.

The StatCan report referred to in the article can be found here.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Its here!!!



> Ontario confirms Canada’s first two cases of COVID-19 variant discovered in UK​By Morgan Lowrie, The Canadian Press — Dec 26 2020
> 
> A variant of COVID-19 that has ravaged the U.K. is now in Canada, health officials said Saturday as they announced an Ontario couple had been diagnosed with the contagious new strain.
> 
> The province's associate chief medical officer of health said in a news release that the strain of COVID-19 was identified in a couple from Durham Region, just east of Toronto, who have no known travel history, exposure or high-risk contacts.
> 
> "Durham Region Health Department has conducted case and contact investigation and Ontario is working in collaboration with our federal counterparts at the Public Health Agency of Canada," Dr. Barbara Yaffe said in a statement.
> 
> The Public Health Agency of Canada noted that research into the new variant of the virus that causes COVID-19 is ongoing.
> 
> "While early data suggests that these new variants may be more transmissible, to date there is no evidence that they cause more severe disease or have any impact on antibody response or vaccine effectiveness," the health agency said.
> 
> The variant was first identified in the United Kingdom but has since been detected in several other countries, including Denmark, Belgium, Australia and the Netherlands.
> 
> The Ontario government noted the discovery of the variant was "not unexpected" due to international travel, and repeated a call for the federal government to increase testing at airports.
> 
> "Recognizing the potential increased risk that inbound international travelers may pose with this new variant, the province continues to call on the federal government to urgently partner with Ontario to implement testing at Toronto Pearson International Airport," the news release read.
> 
> "Regardless of whether federal support is forthcoming, the Ontario government is prepared to act on its own to implement an airport testing program."
> 
> Canada previously announced a travel ban on all flights arriving from the UK until January 6, 2021 in an effort to contain the variant.
> 
> The announcement about the diagnoses came as Ontario began a provincewide lockdown aimed at limiting the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> The province has reported more than 2,000 cases 12 days in a row, including 2,142 new positive tests on Saturday and 2,159 cases from Christmas Day.
> 
> There were also 81 additional deaths during those days, the provincial government said.
> 
> Under the new rules that came into effect on Boxing Day, restaurants in Ontario can only provide takeout, drive through and delivery, including the sale of alcohol.
> 
> Ontario has joined Manitoba and Quebec in closing non-essential retail stores for in-person shopping, while supermarkets and pharmacies must follow rules for distancing and limiting capacity.
> 
> The new rules are having an effect on Boxing Day shopping, which is forcing bargain hunters in many parts of the country to look online for deals instead of lining up and crowding into stores in person.
> 
> Other provinces have put limits on in-store capacity as officials urge Canadians to stay home and limit contacts as much as possible to limit the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> Ontario's new measures remain in effect in southern Ontario until Jan. 23, but will lift for the less-affected northern regions on Jan. 9.
> 
> In Quebec, a province-wide lockdown went into effect Friday, with businesses deemed non-essential ordered to remain closed until at least Jan. 11. The province did not publish data on the number of new infections or deaths on Friday or Saturday.
> 
> Government websites for Manitoba and Saskatchewan also indicated those provinces would not provide updates on Saturday.
> 
> Alberta reported an estimated 1,200 new cases on Dec. 24 and about 900 on Christmas Day, according to a modified update provided by the province's chief medical officer of health.
> 
> Dr. Deena Hinshaw said on Twitter that hospitalizations and intensive care numbers also increased slightly each day.
> 
> New Brunswick reported two new cases on Saturday, and said both were related to travel.
> 
> Officials also reported possible exposure sites on three recent Air Canada flights into New Brunswick.
> 
> This report by The Canadian Press was first published Dec. 26, 2020
> 
> Morgan Lowrie, The Canadian Press



LinK


----------



## CBH99

Considering over 200 flights landed in Canada within the last 2 weeks, with at least one person per flight having tested positive for COVID, this doesn't surprise me.  The government's idea of locking down borders is pretty different than what the rest of us would consider a locked border.


----------



## ModlrMike

Interesting that similar mutations appear to have spontaneously arisen across different populations.


----------



## CBH99

I know I may get flamed for this, and perhaps rightfully so.

The more this drags on, with the more nonsense I read in the press, the less real this seems.

I know COVID exists & should be taken seriously.  But everything surrounding it, the media releases, 'some' of the numbers released, etc etc... just seems less & less credible.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

CBH99 said:


> I know I may get flamed for this, and perhaps rightfully so.
> 
> The more this drags on, with the more nonsense I read in the press, the less real this seems.
> 
> I know COVID exists & should be taken seriously.  But everything surrounding it, the media releases, 'some' of the numbers released, etc etc... just seems less & less credible.



I don't think you're wrong at all.  I personally view most of the things we are doing as little more than security theatrics. This isn't even the first time the COVID virus has mutated nor is it even the deadliest variant.

There is literally COVID in Antarctica yet we are somehow led to believe that we can "control" this thing. 

This is an Ultra-marathon, not a sprint and it's not going away any time soon, regardless of what measures Governments implement. 

Wash your hands, maintain good hygiene and practice social distancing is about all you can do.


----------



## ModlrMike

I think what you're describing can be characterised as information fatigue. The press is hanging on every new announcement of daily cases, often inserting their own bias in the reporting. Conspiracists are flooding the airwaves with nonsense, and pieces that contain just enough science to confuse people, which can only contribute to poor adherence to control measures.

This is a world-wide phenomena, and it's could take years to get control of things. The key in all of this is not government intervention, it's people doing what is right.  That governments have to crack the whip is a sad commentary on how reluctant people are to live up to their responsibility to each other.


----------



## Brash

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Wash your hands, maintain good hygiene and practice social distancing is about all you can do.


One can also:

heed the guidance of health and municipal/federal officials, 
encourage others to do the same (and not be complicit in the spread of mis/disinformation),
wear a mask, 
limit outings to essentials, 
limit social gatherings, and
shop and order locally (to stop lining Amazon/UberEats/DoorDash's bottom line, and keep local economies afloat).


----------



## CBH99

ModlrMike said:


> I think what you're describing can be characterised as information fatigue. The press is hanging on every new announcement of daily cases, often inserting their own bias in the reporting. Conspiracists are flooding the airwaves with nonsense, and pieces that contain just enough science to confuse people, which can only contribute to poor adherence to control measures.
> 
> This is a world-wide phenomena, and it's could take years to get control of things. The key in all of this is not government intervention, it's people doing what is right.  That governments have to crack the whip is a sad commentary on how reluctant people are to live up to their responsibility to each other.


I think it's a combination of information fatigue, and just raising my eyebrow at how absurd 'some' of what has been reported has been.

I do take COVID seriously.  I wear a mask, wash my hands, very much socially distance & isolate (not much of a lifestyle change to be honest), and tend to use common sense in regards to COVID measures.

But like Humphrey mentioned, COVID is now in Antarctica.  Is there a lot of humans coming & going from there?  No.

Or as mentioned by ModlrMike, COVID just happened to experience several similar mutations in different parts of the world around the same time?


I'm not calling it out as a conspiracy, and I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist.  Like I said, I do take COVID seriously.  2 of my work colleagues, both of whom were VERY good at following the rules, both happened to contract it.  And while both are in their mid 30's and in good health, it kicked both their butts for over a month.  

But some of the numbers, and some of the circumstances around the developing situations, just cause me to be skeptical of those things.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

BrashEndeavours said:


> One can also:
> 
> heed the guidance of health and municipal/federal officials,
> encourage others to do the same (and not be complicit in the spread of mis/disinformation),
> wear a mask,
> limit outings to essentials,
> limit social gatherings, and
> shop and order locally (to stop lining Amazon/UberEats/DoorDash's bottom line, and keep local economies afloat).


So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts" line thrown around by some. Do you want another gold star or scout badge?  It's a near perfect example of an appeal to authority fallacy.

This is especially true when the so called experts are political appointees as opposed to real experts. 

Listen to experts, sure, but there is nothing wrong with questioning what you hear.  That's just smart and is good due diligence on your part.

Especially since we all know Government officials never mismanage anything or never make poor decisions 🤡 ...................



> ‘We are not prepared’: The flaws inside Public Health that hurt Canada’s readiness for COVID-19​When Canada unplugged support for its pandemic alert system last year, it was a symptom of bigger problems inside the Public Health Agency. Experienced scientists were pushed aside, expertise was eroded, and internal warnings went unheeded, which hindered the department’s response to COVID-19
> 
> GRANT ROBERTSON
> PUBLISHED DECEMBER 26, 2020UPDATED 22 HOURS AGO



https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...flaws-inside-public-health-that-hurt-canadas/



CBH99 said:


> I think it's a combination of information fatigue, and just raising my eyebrow at how absurd 'some' of what has been reported has been.
> 
> I do take COVID seriously.  I wear a mask, wash my hands, very much socially distance & isolate (not much of a lifestyle change to be honest), and tend to use common sense in regards to COVID measures.
> 
> But like Humphrey mentioned, COVID is now in Antarctica.  Is there a lot of humans coming & going from there?  No.
> 
> Or as mentioned by ModlrMike, COVID just happened to experience several similar mutations in different parts of the world around the same time?
> 
> 
> I'm not calling it out as a conspiracy, and I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist.  Like I said, I do take COVID seriously.  2 of my work colleagues, both of whom were VERY good at following the rules, both happened to contract it.  And while both are in their mid 30's and in good health, it kicked both their butts for over a month.
> 
> But some of the numbers, and some of the circumstances around the developing situations, just cause me to be skeptical of those things.



The fact you feel that you need to point out you aren't some conspiracy theorist is a sad reflection of where we are as a society atm. That was a problem before COVID but it's only gotten worse since the pandemic began.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

These would be the same calibre experts that came up with Phoenix or Shared Services? Or had a PPE stockpile good for a couple of weeks? I have done work supporting scientists in the field, they are not all created equal to put it politely.


----------



## mariomike

"So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts"

Especially the keyboard experts. 

This is entertainment for me. I don't come here for medical advice.


----------



## suffolkowner

Where I go for my information



			https://www.nejm.org/coronavirus
		










						COVID research: a year of scientific milestones
					

Nature waded through the literature on the coronavirus — and summarized key papers as they appeared.




					www.nature.com
				








__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.sciencemag.org


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:


> "So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts"
> 
> Especially the keyboard experts.
> 
> This is entertainment for me. I don't come here for medical advice.


What exactly do you come here for?  It certainly isn't to talk about the profession of arms.  Maybe it's to recite "Ballad of the Ex-Ambulance Driver" over and over again knowing that this is the only place that tolerates it.

You're my entertainment, which is the only reason you haven't made the ignore list yet.  😂


----------



## mariomike

I come here to enjoy reading posters I respect.

About your Ignore List. I'd be happy to be on it. If I upset you so much, write me a Warning.

Sorry for ignoring your Covid 19 wisdom.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:


> "So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts"
> 
> Especially the keyboard experts.
> 
> This is entertainment for me. I don't come here for medical advice.


Oh yah and your little cheap shots are pretty pathetic tbh.  You refuse to ever engage in any sort of debate on this forum.  It's a trend I've noted of yours for a while now.  You obfuscate and avoid but will take little snips when it suits you.

You're literally zero value added here.  You sit in front of your keyboard and pontificate your supposed position of superiority. When challenged, you obfuscate, deny and avoid.  Why do you even come here?  

Attack the argument if you are so bloody smart.


----------



## mariomike

Youre the one making it personal. I just don't take my Covid 19 advice from strangers on the internet.

Like I said. Feel free to add me to your Ignore List, or write me up a Warning.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:


> Your the one making it personal. I just don't take my health advice from strangers on the internet.


Again, when did I ever say that?  Do you even read.  I cited a Globe & Mail article from yesterday that uncovered how GoC apparently made systematic changes to Canada's Pandemic Response, weakening it as a result.  What I was implying was that experts are not always right and the statement "just listen to the experts" is a logical fallacy.  You probably didn't even click the link or spend any time interpolating what I was saying.

Again, this is a forum where we debate issues.  Sometimes views will be different.  If you don't like those views or disagree with them.  Take time to at least do someresearch, maybe read the actual articles, than make an informed opinion. 

Or you could continue to do what you just did, not actually read what was cited and make senseless posts that are zero value added.  For reasons that I can't understand.....

And as for making it personal, nah that was all you bud.  Rather than even try and debate, you made some chicken shit passive aggressive snipe like you always do.

Weak sauce!


----------



## mariomike

Im not your bud, bud.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:


> Im not your bud, bud.


Now there is something we can both agree on!😂


----------



## brihard

Take it to PMs please, gents. The squabble adds nothing to the site for the rest of us and just blasts the rest of us with white noise.


----------



## shawn5o

Speaking of "experts", Washington Free Beacon offers this:


MEDIA
*2020 Men of the Year: The Experts*

Washington Free Beacon Staff - DECEMBER 27, 2020 5:00 AM

We were just three weeks into 2020 when Tom Cotton, the Republican senator from Arkansas, implored the country to take the Wuhan
coronavirus seriously. The "experts" told us he was out of his mind—there was only a "minuscule" risk of the virus in the United States.
"Not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about," they said. It was xenophobic fear-mongering for
President Donald Trump to restrict travel from China.

Then, of course, the virus made it to the United States.

First, the experts told us there was "absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear a mask," unless you were showing symptoms.
Then the advice shifted—experts said everyone breathing should wear a mask at all times, it's our best shot to stop the spread.
Especially since the experts say there was no chance of a coronavirus vaccine coming this year, no matter what Trump did to accelerate
the process. It would take a "miracle," they said, and miracles don't exist.

Of course, now we have millions of vaccines.

If you're still struggling to get the point, maybe you're one of society's so-called "experts"—who have managed to get nearly every single
thing wrong this year. And they haven't just been wrong about the coronavirus.

When the United States assassinated Iranian terrorist Qassem Soleimani, the experts told us the world would combust into violence.
"You've unleashed a Pandora's box of problems for Americans in the region," Vox was told by an "expert." On the contrary, America went on
to broker peace deals across the Middle East.

When news started to break about Hunter Biden's foreign business deals, the experts popped in to tell us it was actually all just Russian
disinformation. Turns out good old Hunter has been under federal investigation since 2018 over his shady foreign business.

We were told that confirming Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court was part of a sinister plot to guarantee Trump's second term. Again,
not so much.

Should we even get into the polling experts, who somehow managed to do worse in 2020 than they did in 2016? A look at this one poll should
get the point across.

The anointed experts have never been great at predicting things, yet year after year society goes to them for guidance. But their failure on
issues across the board has never been clearer than in 2020.

A friend once tried to reassure me after a particularly bad Sunday of gambling, that what I did was actually quite impressive. "It's just
as hard to get every game wrong as it is to get every game right," he astutely observed. "You basically did the impossible."

*For doing the impossible in a tumultuous year, the experts deserve recognition. You morons are Washington Free Beacon Men of the Year.*









						2020 Men of the Year: The Experts
					

We were just three weeks into 2020 when Tom Cotton, the Republican senator from Arkansas, implored the country to take the Wuhan coronavirus seriously.




					freebeacon.com


----------



## mariomike

shawn5o said:


> When news started to break about Hunter Biden's foreign business deals, the experts popped in to tell us it was actually all just Russian
> disinformation. Turns out good old Hunter has been under federal investigation since 2018 over his shady foreign business.
> 
> We were told that confirming Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court was part of a sinister plot to guarantee Trump's second term.


Not sure what those things have to do with Covid 19? Those are political, not medical opinions.


I just try to follow the medical directives from our local Health Dept.  as best I can.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

mariomike said:


> Not sure what those things have to do with Covid 19? Those are political, not medical opinions.
> 
> 
> I just try to follow the medical directives from our local Health Dept.  as best I can.



We know already, you're perfect.  Nice job avoiding discussing yet another article.  Do you even read what people post?


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We know already, you're perfect.


Thanks for keeping it personal.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Covid folks,......covid talk please.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

mariomike said:


> Not sure what those things have to do with Covid 19? Those are political, not medical opinions.
> 
> 
> I just try to follow the medical directives from our local Health Dept.  as best I can.


He is showing a pattern, Public Health is as much about politics as it is about medical. A doctor seeing a patient is worried about the individual. Public Health Officials worry about the population while accepting a certain risk/loss rate of that population. Even if your Public Health officials are exemplary and stick purely to the facts (that they have). That information is passed to the politicians who decide on messaging, timing and weigh the political risks of giving or not giving information. The "experts" are often hustled in with not enough information to provide the politicians with options, as you may have 2 or more experts with contradictory opinions. Then the politicians deliver the news, likley working from a 3 page briefing note.
It's a bit like running a military op, they don't know what the enemy (virus and infection rate) is really up to and don't know what the population will do or how they will react. They make their best guesses and update and adapt as new information and threats comes in.


----------



## shawn5o

mariomike said:


> Not sure what those things have to do with Covid 19? Those are political, not medical opinions.
> 
> 
> I just try to follow the medical directives from our local Health Dept.  as best I can.


Hey MM

I just relayed the message of some so-called "experts"  and sometimes politics overrides science.

I have no dog in the ongoing "spat"

Just do what you think is right


----------



## mariomike

shawn5o said:


> Hey MM
> 
> I just relayed the message of some so-called "experts"  and sometimes politics overrides science.
> 
> I have no dog in the ongoing "spat"
> 
> Just do what you think is right


Not a problem at all, Shawn. 

Hopefully,  next year will get Covid 19 under control.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Verbier, the British are the 'squirters'  

'Impossible situation': British skiers flee Swiss quarantine, destination unknown​








						'Impossible situation': British skiers flee Swiss quarantine, destination unknown
					

ZURICH — Hundreds of Britons have fled quarantine in the Swiss ski resort of Verbier, with the country’s health minister attributing the exodus to an…




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Verbier, the British are the 'squirters'
> 
> 'Impossible situation': British skiers flee Swiss quarantine, destination unknown​


Covid fatigue is setting in quickly.


----------



## brihard

I suspect in this instance it was more a matter of 'get out and get home while you still can'.


----------



## RangerRay

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts" line thrown around by some. Do you want another gold star or scout badge?  It's a near perfect example of an appeal to authority fallacy.
> 
> This is especially true when the so called experts are political appointees as opposed to real experts.
> 
> Listen to experts, sure, but there is nothing wrong with questioning what you hear.  That's just smart and is good due diligence on your part.
> 
> Especially since we all know Government officials never mismanage anything or never make poor decisions 🤡 ...................
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...flaws-inside-public-health-that-hurt-canadas/
> 
> 
> 
> The fact you feel that you need to point out you aren't some conspiracy theorist is a sad reflection of where we are as a society atm. That was a problem before COVID but it's only gotten worse since the pandemic began.


When I read the Globe and Mail article, it sounds to me like no one listened to the experts. Politicians and non-medical civil servants dismantled a pandemic early warning system over the objections of epidemiologists and experts at the WHO.  That is why we had a federal government eating the horse manure the Chinese government was feeding them early on in the pandemic (along with the government’s obsequiousness to Beijing, but that’s another topic) and other bad decisions. Lucky for Ottawa we live above the meth lab that is the USA that most Canadians didn’t notice them crapping the bed.


----------



## dangerboy

Karolinaijf said:


> Can I contact Administration?
> I'ts important.
> Thank.



Bottom of the page there is a button "Contact us" that will allow you to send a message to the Administrator.


----------



## dapaterson

Dawn Wells (Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island) died today of COVID-19 complications.  She was 82. 









						Dawn Wells Dies Of Covid-19: Mary Ann On ‘Gilligan’s Island’ Was 82
					

Dawn Wells, best known for playing the girl-next-door castaway Mary Ann on the iconic CBS comedy series Gilligan’s Island, died Wednesday morning in Los Angeles of complications due to Covid-…




					deadline.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

dapaterson said:


> Dawn Wells (Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island) died today of COVID-19 complications.  She was 82.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn Wells Dies Of Covid-19: Mary Ann On ‘Gilligan’s Island’ Was 82
> 
> 
> Dawn Wells, best known for playing the girl-next-door castaway Mary Ann on the iconic CBS comedy series Gilligan’s Island, died Wednesday morning in Los Angeles of complications due to Covid-…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadline.com


I guess The Professor ran out of tricks in his coconut based laboratory....


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:


> Dawn Wells (Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island) died today of COVID-19 complications.  She was 82.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn Wells Dies Of Covid-19: Mary Ann On ‘Gilligan’s Island’ Was 82
> 
> 
> Dawn Wells, best known for playing the girl-next-door castaway Mary Ann on the iconic CBS comedy series Gilligan’s Island, died Wednesday morning in Los Angeles of complications due to Covid-…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deadline.com


To the immortal question, "Who would you rather be stranded on a deserted island with, Ginger or Mary Ann?" The answer was always Mary Ann.


----------



## mariomike

Haven't seen anything in the news, yet. But, heard from a friend that the Toronto Congress Centre is being turned into a Covid hospital. I think it opens for business on Monday.

Pretty amazing considering TCC is over one million square feet, and one of the largest facilities of its kind in North America.

Looks like they are expecting a lot of business. I've never seen anything like it.

( I'm interested in emergency and mass casualty Operations in regards to Covid. )

Prefer to stay out of the politics,   , as  there is already a fantastic thread for that, 

CDN/US Covid-related political discussion


----------



## Jarnhamar

Rassemblement: une intervention policière à Gatineau dégénère
					

Un rassemblement de six personnes dans une résidence a donné lieu à une intervention policière qui a rapidement dégénéré.




					www.journaldemontreal.com
				




Video of police in Gatineau giving a ticket for an illegal (6 person I think?) gathering which turned physical.

Neighbors called the police. Home owners would have been safer following Pierre Arcand to the Barbados.


----------



## dapaterson

CBC has a list of all federal and provincial politicians found to have travelled internationally (with updates).  Some parties are giving very mealy-mouthed "we follow the rules" statements without indicating whether anyone flew to South Dakota for a family Christmas party...



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-politicians-pandemic-travel-1.5859785


----------



## Jarnhamar

I like how Tracy Allard's defense is that her family has mostly gone to Hawaii for the last 17 years. Meaning there were some years she didn't go but this year seemed like a good idea.
​


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Haven't seen anything in the news, yet. But, heard from a friend that the Toronto Congress Centre is being turned into a Covid hospital. I think it opens for business on Monday.
> 
> Pretty amazing considering TCC is over one million square feet, and one of the largest facilities of its kind in North America.
> 
> Looks like they are expecting a lot of business. I've never seen anything like it.
> 
> ( I'm interested in emergency and mass casualty Operations in regards to Covid. )
> 
> Prefer to stay out of the politics,   , as  there is already a fantastic thread for that,
> 
> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion


Not trying to sound skeptical or facetious, but I wonder if it will be a similar situation to the US hospital ships that briefly deployed to LA and NYC.

They surged that capacity in anticipation of receiving dozens, if not hundreds of Covid patients.  In the end, the ships barely saw any use at all - and were withdrawn from that mission after fairly short order.


More and more, folks who are diagnosed with Covid are sent home to isolate and recover.  Only severe cases, or folks who have serious complications, seem to be hospitalized (here in Alberta anyway, and even then, many are sent home to continue their recovery once fairly safe to do so)

I don't have an anticipation of the new Toronto capacity either way.  Genuinely curious to see how busy it gets.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, this is one scenario I never expected:

Wisconsin pharmacist awaiting charges for deliberately spoiling COVID-19 vaccine, officials say

Officials say charges are pending against a Grafton, Wisconsin pharmacist who is accused of deliberately spoiling doses of the COVID-19 vaccine.

 MILWAUKEE -- The Wisconsin pharmacist *accused of intentionally sabotaging more than 500 doses of the COVID-19 vaccine* remained in a county jail over the weekend, awaiting formal charges, as questions remain about his motive and access to the vaccine.

"It's become clear this was a situation involving a bad actor instead of a bad process," said Dr. Jeff Bahr, president of the Aurora Healthcare Medical Group. 

It's unclear what if any changes healthcare systems like Advocate Aurora will make, but officials say both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines are thoroughly documented.

State health officials *told WISN* any incident involving wasted doses must be reported and investigated.

Still, there's a growing call for transparency on the vaccine rollout itself.

"I think there's an opportunity for improved transparency. We're looking at 50 states rolling this out together at the same time," said U.S. Rep. Bryan Steil of Wisconsin.

Steil and Wisconsin Sen. Tammy Baldwin sent a letter to Gov. Tony Evers before the Grafton incident, asking for more details about the state's plan.

In Grafton, the FBI is also involved.


https://abc7ny.com/9320519/?ex_cid=...AGDUWVVqHFq7eKaN_Y-uwn4o1FxlqB_WZEtSrmlXQ2C0o


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Not trying to sound skeptical or facetious, but I wonder if it will be a similar situation to the US hospital ships that briefly deployed to LA and NYC.
> 
> They surged that capacity in anticipation of receiving dozens, if not hundreds of Covid patients.  In the end, the ships barely saw any use at all - and were withdrawn from that mission after fairly short order.
> 
> 
> More and more, folks who are diagnosed with Covid are sent home to isolate and recover.  Only severe cases, or folks who have serious complications, seem to be hospitalized (here in Alberta anyway, and even then, many are sent home to continue their recovery once fairly safe to do so)
> 
> I don't have an anticipation of the new Toronto capacity either way.  Genuinely curious to see how busy it gets.


Right. There was ( is? ) also the Jacob Javits Convention Centre in NYC. I read JJCC had a 25-point checklist to transfer a patient into Javits. According to one nurse, out of 95 patients they requested for transfer, only one met the standards.

We'll have to wait for the official press release about TCC. My understanding is it is intended for patients who need to be moved out of Long Term Care facilities.


----------



## Mediman14

Jarnhamar said:


> I like how Tracy Allard's defense is that her family has mostly gone to Hawaii for the last 17 years. Meaning there were some years she didn't go but this year seemed like a good idea.
> ​


All of these elected public officials should know better. IMO they all should be fired.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Mediman14 said:


> All of these elected public officials should know better. IMO they all should be fired.


Next election we have the power.


----------



## OceanBonfire

The individual who destroyed the vaccine doses is a conspiracy theorist:









						Prosecutor: Wisconsin pharmacist thought vaccine was unsafe
					

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A Wisconsin pharmacist convinced the world was “crashing down” told police he tried to ruin hundreds of doses of coronavirus vaccine because he believed the shots would mutate people’s DNA, according to court documents released Monday...




					apnews.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

OceanBonfire said:


> The individual who destroyed the vaccine doses is a conspiracy theorist:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prosecutor: Wisconsin pharmacist thought vaccine was unsafe
> 
> 
> MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A Wisconsin pharmacist convinced the world was “crashing down” told police he tried to ruin hundreds of doses of coronavirus vaccine because he believed the shots would mutate people’s DNA, according to court documents released Monday...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


He should also be a Fig 11 target on the next PWT


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the current rate of vaccinations, interesting to note that way back in 1947, NYC vaccinated six million people in less than a month.


----------



## CBH99

I don't know the rate of vaccinations for other provinces, but here in Alberta, our CMO and health minister don't seem to see any urgency at all.

I understand that over the holidays, there would be a massive slowdown.  Many professionals had time off, and not many folks who are eligible would be going in to get the vaccine anyway.

Hopefully now that the holiday season is over, they can pick up the pace.

If the primary targets are seniors in long term care, and healthcare/emergency workers...I have no idea how that couldn't be accomplished in a week or two given some basic effort & basic coordination.


----------



## PuckChaser

The problem is the Federal Government dropped the ball completely on vaccine procurement. We're clearly back of the line and have no steady supply. I don't blame the provinces for holding back enough to cover 2nd doses, because right now the shipments of both Pfizer and Moderna are showing up in drips and drabs.

How do you do a mass vaccination campaign in a short period of time when you can barely get enough vaccines per week to cover 1 small town in Ontario?


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> The problem is the Federal Government dropped the ball completely on vaccine procurement. We're clearly back of the line and have no steady supply. I don't blame the provinces for holding back enough to cover 2nd doses, because right now the shipments of both Pfizer and Moderna are showing up in drips and drabs.
> 
> How do you do a mass vaccination campaign in a short period of time when you can barely get enough vaccines per week to cover 1 small town in Ontario?


Wouldn't go that far.

A lot of countries are suffering right now.

USA, 4 million out of a promised 20 million by the end of 2020, France a couple of hundred.









						Covid-19: Virus Hammers California as Deaths and Hospitalizations Surge
					

The number of confirmed cases in U.S. prisons has passed 500,000. Britain imposed a strict new national lockdown.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> As of monday morning, three weeks into the vaccination drive, 15.4 million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines had been shipped across the United States, but just 4.6 million people had gotten their first shots.











						Coronavirus: French government vows to speed up vaccinations
					

A week into mass vaccinations France has inoculated fewer than 1,000 - far behind Germany.



					www.bbc.com
				






> *The French government has defended its coronavirus vaccination policy against criticism that it is going far too slowly, with 516 vaccinations reported in the first week.*




At the end of the day, there are only going to be so many vaccines to go around to all the first world countries on the planet (May god help the poor) so until production ramps up everyone is going to need to wait their turn.


----------



## CBH99

Totally understood and agreed upon, at the 'general' or macro level.

Alberta apparently has received 90,000 doses - but as of last week, had only administered approximately 4500.

As time goes on, I become less & less impressed with our CMO.  Very quick to constantly sound the alarm, yet very slow when it the opportunity comes to actually accomplish anything of substance now that we have the ability to do so.  Like I said, now that the holidays are over - and now that vaccine production is ramping up & steadying - we can see governments all over pick up the pace.


----------



## daftandbarmy

'One death is a tragedy, millions of deaths are a statistic.' J. Stalin

“A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic.” J. Stalin

Why Americans are numb to the staggering coronavirus death toll​Death is everywhere and yet nowhere in America during the worst stretch of the pandemic​
When Todd Klindt buried his dad, he was stunned. Some of the mourners arrived not wearing masks — for the funeral of a man killed by the coronavirus.

Just days earlier, Klindt had held his father’s hand in a hospital intensive care unit. Now, watching people at the funeral — acting as if the world was not on fire, as if people were not dying by the dozen every hour of every day — he wanted to shout, “He’s right here!”

“I’m like, ‘Are you paying attention at all? Is any of this sinking in?’ ” said Klindt, who lives in Ames, Iowa.

Death is now everywhere and yet nowhere in America. We track its progress in daily bar graphs. We note its latest victims among celebrities and acquaintances. Yet, in many parts of America, we carry on — debating holiday plans, the necessity of mask mandates, how seriously to take the virus, whether it’s all a hoax.

Dec. 16 was a day of relief at Temple University Hospital in Philadelphia. Health-care workers lined up and some even teared up when they received a vaccine. (The Washington Post)

In the face of one of the biggest mass casualty events in American history, we are growing increasingly numb to death, experts say — numb to the crisis and tragedy it represents and to the action it requires in response.

Something happens in the brain when fatalities reach such high numbers, say psychologists who have studied genocides and mass disasters. The casualties become like a mountain of corpses that has grown so large it becomes difficult to focus on the individual bodies.

With the coronavirus in particular, experts say, the deaths have been hidden from sight even from friends and family — the human cost sequestered in hospitals and nursing homes.

“Sometimes I think, if only others could see what we see every day,” said Joan Schaum, a hospice nurse who has spent the past year caring for the dying in Lancaster, Pa.

“Other times,” she said, “I think, no one should have to see the amount of death and suffering going on right now. It changes you. It stays with you.”

In 1994, hundreds of thousands in Rwanda were murdered in the space of weeks by soldiers and militias from a rival ethnic group. In response, the United States and much of the world largely shrugged. President Bill Clinton later called his administration’s failure to act one of his great regrets.

Puzzled by that apathy, a psychologist named Paul Slovic began conducting experiments to better understand people’s reaction to mass suffering and death. What he found was troubling.

In one study, his researchers showed people a picture of a 7-year-old girl dying of starvation and asked for donations to help her. He showed another group two starving children, then even larger sets of children. Slovic found people’s distress didn’t grow with the number of children in danger, but often shrank.

“In fact, the more who die, sometimes the less we care,” Slovic said in an interview. In greater numbers, death becomes impersonal, and people feel increasingly hopeless that their actions can have any effect.

“Statistics are human beings with tears dried off,” Slovic said. “And that’s dangerous because we need tears to motivate us.”

At St. Mary Medical Center in Apple Valley, the ICU is full, the main lobby has become a makeshift covid ward, and patients spill out into the parking lot. (The Washington Post)

With the coronavirus — the death toll substantially exceeding 300,000 in the United States — many of our strongest impulses are working against us, experts say.

“Think about the disasters that have captured our national attention. … A hurricane like Katrina hits. News crews show the devastation, and people open their wallets,” said Lori Peek, who directs the Natural Hazards Center at the University of Colorado at Boulder. “But this pandemic isn’t a camera-ready event like that.”

Instead of a single discrete event — like the twin towers collapsing on Sept. 11, 2001 — the pandemic has unfolded as an invisible, slow-creeping, chronic hazard. Over time, our brains gradually tune out the danger.

Peek likened the effect to heat waves, which kill more people in America than all other natural disasters combined. “But you never hear that much about heat waves because it’s gradual. You don’t see people trapped on rooftops like Katrina. You don’t have homes going up in flames like in wildfires.”

Without visual, physical manifestations of deaths, the alarm bells in our heads fail to ring, experts said. Because we don’t see the deaths, we fail to see their connection to us — including our role in preventing their growing numbers.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...gfA1cyGMcVuqf0yuSO9N_R_XHXYyDbO0COzhgroSCjjcc


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quebec headed for full lockdown, curfews beginning Saturday​








						Health experts say a lockdown in Quebec is long overdue
					

“My reaction is relief that they’re finally doing what needs to be done, but with incredible frustration that it’s so late,” one public health expert said of the impending lockdown announcement.




					montrealgazette.com


----------



## PuckChaser

Pal87 said:


> Wouldn't go that far.
> 
> A lot of countries are suffering right now.
> 
> At the end of the day, there are only going to be so many vaccines to go around to all the first world countries on the planet (May god help the poor) so until production ramps up everyone is going to need to wait their turn.


The problem is, the Canadian government put all their eggs in the baskets of smaller players. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/services/procuring-vaccines-covid19.html


> Agreements have been signed with the following suppliers:
> 
> 
> AstraZeneca: 20 million doses
> Johnson & Johnson: Up to 38 million doses
> Medicago: Up to 76 million doses
> Moderna: 40 million doses
> Novavax: Up to 76 million doses
> Pfizer: Up to 76 million doses
> Sanofi and GlaxoSmithKline: Up to 72 million doses



They signed big contracts with Sanofi, Novavax, Medicago and J&J months before those companies even went into Stage 3 trials (except for J&J). Only the J&J candidate is at Health Canada waiting for approvals (and it's been waiting there for a full month already). Moderna and Pfzer's orders were increased only after their Stage 3 trials were finalized, putting us at the back of the line for that increase in vaccines.

There's 2 issues, 1 in that we've got doses sitting around where 50% of them should have already been given out (we should be holding back doses due to supply issues). The 2nd issue is the ball drop on not signing bigger up front contracts with the most advanced candidates. Instead we're stuck with huge doses of vaccines that won't be ready until end 2021, early 2022.

You could even say a third issue was the complete lack of preparedness for the super-cold storage requirements. This is where the Federal Government should have taken the lead in August and started procuring the freezers needed and prestaging them at major urban centers.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:


> Totally understood and agreed upon, at the 'general' or macro level.
> 
> Alberta apparently has received 90,000 doses - but as of last week, had only administered approximately 4500.
> 
> As time goes on, I become less & less impressed with our CMO.  Very quick to constantly sound the alarm, yet very slow when it the opportunity comes to actually accomplish anything of substance now that we have the ability to do so.  Like I said, now that the holidays are over - and now that vaccine production is ramping up & steadying - we can see governments all over pick up the pace.



While I agree that Alberta has been slow off the mark with vaccine distribution, assigning blame to the CMO for that developing cluster**** is not on the mark.  Most provincial Public Health Officers have little authority to do anything other than drawing attention to problems.  They generally don't command, control or manage the physical resources that actually provide any health services and specifically in Alberta's case, the doctor to whom you referred was not given the task of managing the vaccine distribution.  The Alberta government (like Ontario's) decided to hand that particular job to a former Army Commander, I suppose because they "bring a wealth of experience that will be invaluable in addressing the challenges of this project".   LGen (Ret'd) Wynnyk is (and has been since his retirement from the CF) the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and one wonders about his opinion of his minister (correction, former minister - she resigned today) who vacationed in Hawaii while the province went into various levels of restriction.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PuckChaser said:


> The problem is, the Canadian government put all their eggs in the baskets of smaller players.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/services/procuring-vaccines-covid19.html
> 
> 
> They signed big contracts with Sanofi, Novavax, Medicago and J&J months before those companies even went into Stage 3 trials (except for J&J). Only the J&J candidate is at Health Canada waiting for approvals (and it's been waiting there for a full month already). Moderna and Pfzer's orders were increased only after their Stage 3 trials were finalized, putting us at the back of the line for that increase in vaccines.
> 
> There's 2 issues, 1 in that we've got doses sitting around where 50% of them should have already been given out (we should be holding back doses due to supply issues). The 2nd issue is the ball drop on not signing bigger up front contracts with the most advanced candidates. Instead we're stuck with huge doses of vaccines that won't be ready until end 2021, early 2022.
> 
> You could even say a third issue was the complete lack of preparedness for the super-cold storage requirements. This is where the Federal Government should have taken the lead in August and started procuring the freezers needed and prestaging them at major urban centers.


Well the Public Service/Government already makes a mess of every other procurement project they get their hands on.  Why should this one be any different?

Sad truth is we were blessed with some incredible luck at the beginning of this pandemic which was squandered.  We will be just as bad as Europe for deaths come the summer.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> The problem is, the Canadian government put all their eggs in the baskets of smaller players.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/services/procuring-vaccines-covid19.html
> 
> 
> They signed big contracts with Sanofi, Novavax, Medicago and J&J months before those companies even went into Stage 3 trials (except for J&J). Only the J&J candidate is at Health Canada waiting for approvals (and it's been waiting there for a full month already). Moderna and Pfzer's orders were increased only after their Stage 3 trials were finalized, putting us at the back of the line for that increase in vaccines.
> 
> There's 2 issues, 1 in that we've got doses sitting around where 50% of them should have already been given out (we should be holding back doses due to supply issues). The 2nd issue is the ball drop on not signing bigger up front contracts with the most advanced candidates. Instead we're stuck with huge doses of vaccines that won't be ready until end 2021, early 2022.
> 
> You could even say a third issue was the complete lack of preparedness for the super-cold storage requirements. This is where the Federal Government should have taken the lead in August and started procuring the freezers needed and prestaging them at major urban centers.


I mean, you're not wrong.

But I'm not judging them in a vacuum. I look around the world, and a lot of countries are having problems with 

Procurement

Distribution

People willing to take the vaccine

Some countries are doing well, others, not so much. Some countries are holding back the second dose as per the vaccine makers instructions, others are saying screw it, we will worry about the second dose later. 

The Canadian federal and provincial governments are doing a decidedly average job across the board.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I wonder if the government will come up with incentives to enforce vaccination compliance.
Can't fly unless your vaccinated
Can't renew your drivers license unless your vaccinated 

I bet they could get pretty creative.


----------



## blacktriangle

Jarnhamar said:


> I wonder if the government will come up with incentives to enforce vaccination compliance.
> Can't fly unless your vaccinated
> Can't renew your drivers license unless your vaccinated
> 
> I bet they could get pretty creative.


Required for employment, or to be eligible for government unemployment benefits...

And it will impact your future social credit score, naturally.


----------



## mariomike

reveng said:


> Required for employment,


Depends on your employer.

eg: The annual flu shot. Don't want it? Full PPE for you!

Like I said, depends on your employer. YMMV.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Meanwhile in BC if you want the vaccine, move to a remote FN community. Also elders if your FN, 65+, non FN 80+ 

The first groups to get vaccinated between December and February will be:

residents, staff and essential visitors to long-term care and assisted-living residences.
individuals in hospital or community awaiting a long term care placement
health care workers providing care for COVID-19 patients in settings like Intensive Care Units, emergency departments, medical/surgical units and paramedics.
remote and isolated First Nations communities.
From February to March, the immunization program will expand to include:

community-based seniors, age 80 and above, Indigenous elders and Indigenous seniors, age 65 and above.
people experiencing homelessness and/or using shelters.
provincial correctional facilities.
adults in group homes or mental health residential care.
long term home support recipients and staff.
hospital staff, community GPs and medical specialists.


----------



## dapaterson

The impact of an outbreak in a remote community with poor health outcomes and minimal health infrastructure would be significantly more damaging than  a similar situation in a more central location with adequate health infrastructure.


----------



## CBH99

Blackadder1916 said:


> While I agree that Alberta has been slow off the mark with vaccine distribution, assigning blame to the CMO for that developing cluster**** is not on the mark.  Most provincial Public Health Officers have little authority to do anything other than drawing attention to problems.  They generally don't command, control or manage the physical resources that actually provide any health services and specifically in Alberta's case, the doctor to whom you referred was not given the task of managing the vaccine distribution.  The Alberta government (like Ontario's) decided to hand that particular job to a former Army Commander, I suppose because they "bring a wealth of experience that will be invaluable in addressing the challenges of this project".   LGen (Ret'd) Wynnyk is (and has been since his retirement from the CF) the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and one wonders about his opinion of his minister (correction, former minister - she resigned today) who vacationed in Hawaii while the province went into various levels of restriction.


I appreciate the clarification, perhaps my frustration was targeted at the wrong person.  I own that.

I assumed - perhaps wrongfully so - that Dr. Hinshaw had some authority to give Alberta Health Services a kick in the pants & speed things up.


----------



## dapaterson

Line vs Staff.  Chief medical officers of health are staff advisers, not in the chain of command of provincial medical systems.


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:


> I wonder if the government will come up with incentives to enforce vaccination compliance.
> Can't fly unless your vaccinated
> Can't renew your drivers license unless your vaccinated
> 
> I bet they could get pretty creative.


DND is already doing that with the flu shot this year. Can't order you to take a vaccine but we can tie any vaccine to readiness and pull your allowances after 181 days of refusal. I wonder if that'll stand up in court, but only takes one person to challenge it to make the CAF look dumb...

If they're going to make COVID-19 vaccine mandatory for things, there better not be any kids at schools without all required vaccinations. No more conscientious or religious objections.


----------



## Weinie

PuckChaser said:


> DND is already doing that with the flu shot this year. Can't order you to take a vaccine but we can tie any vaccine to readiness and pull your allowances after 181 days of refusal. I wonder if that'll stand up in court, but only takes one person to challenge it to make the CAF look dumb...
> 
> If they're going to make COVID-19 vaccine mandatory for things, there better not be any kids at schools without all required vaccinations. No more conscientious or religious objections.


Not sure if I agree with making the CAF look dumb. Whether you agree with it or not, the CAF has to maintain a capability to perform our primary role. 

For covid-19 mandatory vaccinations, we can't insist that folks take the needle, and for those who opted out, the court challenges would fly if we restricted them from jobs/vacations/opportunities.  

On school vaccinations, 100% agree with you. I have 3 (soon to be 4) kids in school. If you don't wish to have your kids vaccinated before attending school, home school them.

Yup, I'm biased.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Gotta' look after the scum first.....










						Federal inmates set to receive COVID-19 vaccines starting Friday
					

Inmates at federal prisons across the country will be receiving COVID-19 vaccines starting this week.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				








 















 


KINGSTON, ONT. --    CTV News Ottawa confirms that inmates at federal prisons across the country are going to be receiving COVID-19 vaccines starting this week.

    The Union of Canadian Correctional Officers (UCCO) says the pilot project will begin Friday.
    1,200 doses of the vaccine will be delivered to prisons across the country. In all, 600 inmates will be vaccinated, with each inmate getting the required two doses. It remains unclear which institutions in Canada will receive doses of the vaccine.         
    Sick and elderly prisoners will be prioritized, but prison officers and employees are not a part of the program.
    Correctional Service Canada (CSC) says in a statement that they are following health guidelines for vaccinations.
    “We have worked very closely with the Public Health Agency of Canada to respond to every aspect of the pandemic, including the provision of vaccines to inmates,” says the CSC.

Prisons have been a significant source of outbreaks across the country. In eastern Ontario, the Joyceville Institution in Kingston has an ongoing outbreak where 150 inmates have tested positive for the virus.
    Justin Piché is an associate professor in the criminology department at the University of Ottawa. He says inmates are especially vulnerable.
    “Even when they’re in lockdown, their cells are right beside each other,” he says. “So, if someone gets COVID-19 and coughs, and that gets in the air, it doesn’t have to travel very far for someone to get infected.”

 Officers and prison employees will have to wait for the Province of Ontario’s second vaccination phase, which is expected to begin in March, but there is no firm date yet.
    National president of the UCCO, Jeff Wilkins, says prison officers should be vaccinated too.
    “People are very close together in there, our members are going to work in there every single day,” he says. “They need to be protected.”


----------



## Quirky

I see vaccinating the primary workforce that contributes the bulk of the tax revenue is nowhere near a priority.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> I see vaccinating the primary workforce that contributes the bulk of the tax revenue is nowhere near a priority.


----------



## blacktriangle

Quirky said:


> I see vaccinating the primary workforce that contributes the bulk of the tax revenue is nowhere near a priority.


Shocker!


----------



## Brad Sallows

Should be vaccinating the people most likely to spread it.  Impact of an outbreak beyond local resources will be much greater in a well-populated area than a sparsely populated area.


----------



## PuckChaser

Considering the jury is out on whether mRNA vaccines actually stop transmission or just reduce illness severity, we should be doing the only people at risk for COVID: the 60+ crowd, starting with those in congregate care. Once those folks are done and our ICU rate drops dramatically, then we can re-evaluate if the vaccine is worth it for the general populace.

Appalling that federal prisoners (which means the Federal government withheld vaccines from provinces) are getting the vaccine first. CSC data shows only 3 deaths out of 1200ish cases. No where close to at risk.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Should be vaccinating the people most likely to spread it.  Impact of an outbreak beyond local resources will be much greater in a well-populated area than a sparsely populated area.


Meanwhile, in California....
Health care workers refuse COVID vaccine​As California confronts its darkest moment yet of the pandemic, complications in the rollout of the coronavirus vaccine — which Gov. Gavin Newsom billed as the “light at the end of the tunnel” — suggest that the tunnel may be longer than previously thought.

Although the Golden State was slated to receive around 2.1 million vaccine doses by the end of December, it had received less than 1.5 million as of Saturday — and only 412,000 Californians had gotten their first shot, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That represents about 17% of the health care workers California prioritized for the vaccine — many of whom are refusing to take it. Between 20% and 40% of frontline workers in Los Angeles County and up to 50% in Riverside County have turned down the vaccine.









						Health care workers refuse COVID vaccine
					

California health care workers are refusing to take the COVID-19 vaccine even as interest groups jostle to be next in line.




					calmatters.org


----------



## blacktriangle

PuckChaser said:


> Considering the jury is out on whether mRNA vaccines actually stop transmission or just reduce illness severity, we should be doing the only people at risk for COVID: the 60+ crowd, starting with those in congregate care. Once those folks are done and our ICU rate drops dramatically, then we can re-evaluate if the vaccine is worth it for the general populace.
> 
> Appalling that federal prisoners (which means the Federal government withheld vaccines from provinces) are getting the vaccine first. CSC data shows only 3 deaths out of 1200ish cases. No where close to at risk.


I thought I read somewhere that the average prisoner has a higher V02 max than the average LEO. Might be a US stat. Not sure they are the weakest population by any means...close quarters for sure though.


----------



## daftandbarmy

reveng said:


> I thought I read somewhere that the average prisoner has a higher V02 max than the average LEO. Might be a US stat. Not sure they are the weakest population by any means..*.close quarters for sure though*.


Unlike, say, soldiers, sailors and air people, right?


----------



## dapaterson

The municipality of Slave Lake has some concerns about their globe-trotting MLA:









						Slave Lake, AB
					

Letter to MLA Pat Rehn of Lesser Slave Lake




					www.slavelake.ca
				






> It is no secret the people of this Region have lost faith in your ability to do your job. Previous to this letter, we have let your government know our grievances and even told you ourselves. Our Region needs an MLA that cares and wants to make the Region better; however, it is hard to this when you don't call Lesser Slave Lake your home and don't have the love and passion for the Region that those who actually live here do.
> 
> As such, we have lost faith that you have the ability and the desire to undertake the work which is required of an MLA. On behalf of the Town of Slave Lake and those we represent, we are asking for your resignation as MLA for the Lesser Slave Lake constituency.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I especially enjoy how they get caught out when they're lying, and also get thrown to the wolves by their municipal peers.... was ancient Rome this much fun, I wonder?

Two municipal councillors in capital region travelled internationally in December​
Two Greater Victoria councillors have acknowledged travelling internationally in December despite government directives advising against non-essential travel. Victoria Coun. Sharmarke Dubow has apologized for his trip to East Africa and Metchosin councillor Kyara Kahakauwila is defending her trip to Mexico for a friend’s wedding, saying she was up front with Metchosin’s mayor, council and the public about her travel plans.

Dubow said in a Facebook post Tuesday that he made the “poor choice” to travel outside the country, and apologized to his constituents. “I had been planning and saving for this trip for years and returned to East Africa for the first time since I fled the civil war in Somalia in 1992 as a child,” he wrote. “I saw family members I hadn’t seen in more than three decades.”

However, Dubow posted photos on social media in December 2019 from Ethiopia and from Djibouti in January 2019. On Tuesday night, Dubow clarified that it was his first time returning to Somalia and Kenya since he fled.

The Times Colonist asked more than 80 municipal councillors in Greater Victoria if they had travelled internationally during the Christmas break or since the start of the pandemic. All but two of the 64 councillors who replied said they had not travelled internationally since March. Many said they have not left the Island, or even their region and said they’ve cancelled international holidays or trips to see family members.

Premier John Horgan told British Columbians on Nov. 18 to avoid non-essential travel amid rising COVID-19 case numbers.

Dubow said while away, he adhered to local public health guidelines and took the PCR COVID-19 test multiple times, including before returning home to Canada, and all results were negative. He said he is now in quarantine for 14 days at a hotel in Vancouver after arriving back in Canada on Monday, and plans to carry out his council duties remotely.

“Even with the extreme caution that I took, including the tests I paid for, I know now that I should not have gone,” he wrote on Facebook. “I acknowledge that I showed poor judgment by not leading by example in this case. I understand that many people made the difficult decision not to visit their families over the past number of months. I know now that I should have made the same decision.”

Kahakauwila said she and her husband, Edison, went to Cabo San Lucas from Dec. 1 to Dec. 8 and quarantined for two weeks afterward.

“Yes we made the decision to travel,” said Kahakauwila, who has been a councillor since 2006. “We didn’t hide it from anybody.”

“Travelling is not illegal — it’s discouraged,” she said.

Senior-level politicians across the country have been in hot water for international travel over the holiday period.

Saanich Mayor Fred Haynes said elected municipal officials have a moral responsibility to set an example for their constituents and abide by public health recommendations.

Haynes said local politicians have an even greater responsibility than provincial or federal politicians not to travel, because “we are more hand-in-hand with our residents. We’re out in the shops, we’re out in the restaurants.”

No Saanich council member travelled internationally over the holidays, said Haynes, who did not feel it was necessary to tell them not to do so. “This is our opportunity to send a clear signal as elected officials that we are in this together,” he said.

Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps quipped that she has only ventured as far south as Dallas Road, save for a summer trip to Tofino when province-wide travel was not restricted. Helps could not be reached after Dubow posted about his trip on Tuesday evening.









						Two municipal councillors in capital region travelled internationally in December
					

Update: Victoria's mayor says she did not know about councillor's travel until Tuesday afternoon, shortly before he made a public statement about his international travel. Full story here .




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> The municipality of Slave Lake has some concerns about their globe-trotting MLA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slave Lake, AB
> 
> 
> Letter to MLA Pat Rehn of Lesser Slave Lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.slavelake.ca


It would make a great form letter


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:


> The municipality of Slave Lake has some concerns about their globe-trotting MLA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slave Lake, AB
> 
> 
> Letter to MLA Pat Rehn of Lesser Slave Lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.slavelake.ca


Looks like an excellent opportunity to apologize and _promise to do better_

The guy doesn't even live in the area, he sounds like a real piece of work.

I myself _love _going to meetings where I've spent 3+ hours working on an information package for someone who doesn't bother to read it and asks for the the coles notes at the table.



daftandbarmy said:


> I especially enjoy how they get caught out when they're lying, and also get thrown to the wolves by their municipal peers.... was ancient Rome this much fun, I wonder?


Even when they're caught they're still trying to warp and bend the truth.



I get a kick out of this.

Albertans right to be angry over politicians' vacations: health minister​








						Albertans right to be angry over politicians' vacations: health minister
					

EDMONTON — Two Alberta cabinet ministers say they've been getting an earful from constituents about their colleagues jetting off to tropical locales contrary to public-health guidelines — and that they're right to be angry.  Premier Jason Kenney announced on social media Monday that municipal...




					ca.news.yahoo.com
				




Nice of the minister to validate Albertans feelings like that.  I'm sure they feel better a minister is justifying their anger.
Also nice to read  the politicians "take full responsibility for their actions" as if there was any doubt who was responsible.

And of course - "We're committed to doing better."


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> I especially enjoy how they get caught out when they're lying, and also get thrown to the wolves by their municipal peers.... was ancient Rome this much fun, I wonder?
> 
> Two municipal councillors in capital region travelled internationally in December​
> *The Times Colonist asked more than 80 municipal councillors in Greater Victoria* if they had travelled internationally during the Christmas break or since the start of the pandemic. All but two of the 64 councillors who replied said they had not travelled internationally since March. Many said they have not left the Island, or even their region and said they’ve cancelled international holidays or trips to see family members.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two municipal councillors in capital region travelled internationally in December
> 
> 
> Update: Victoria's mayor says she did not know about councillor's travel until Tuesday afternoon, shortly before he made a public statement about his international travel. Full story here .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


WTF. More than 80 municipal councillors. Now that is the real scandal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> WTF. More than 80 municipal councillors. Now that is the real scandal.


Caution: 'Greater Victoria' is not just 'The City of Victoria'. 

It includes 13 separate municipalities (or 'Dutchies') covering about the same geographical area as Etobicoke, I think.


----------



## Brash

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So sick of hearing the "listen to the experts" line thrown around by some.


That's the best advice I can offer.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Do you want another gold star or scout badge?


Childish ad hominum.
Don't you see that such a retort weakens your position?

By the way, aren't you some sort of moderator?
You should be setting good examples of debate, not crap like this.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's a near perfect example of an appeal to authority fallacy.


That's your flawed opinion of my position.

In society we have by necessity streamed individuals into silos of extremely specialized roles and domain knowledge.
These roles often require multi-year/multi-degrees to enable.
I defer my assessment to those that occupy such roles.

I know that some people defer to me in a specific field.
I do not know your domain, but I suspect some people even defer to you as well.
This doesn't make us ultimate field experts, but we know more than 99% of the general public because 99% of the general public is focused on something else to make society work.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> This is especially true when the so called experts are political appointees as opposed to real experts.


A political appointee isn't a domain expert in health, so no, this isn't my position.
Since you're into fallacies, this is a straw man fallacy.
These strategy is deployed by those with weak argumentative positions.
In this case is appears you wish to replace my proposition of listening to experts, to a proposition that those experts include political appointees.

That's not my argument.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Listen to experts, sure, but there is nothing wrong with questioning what you hear. That's just smart and is good due diligence on your part.


Yes.  I agree with this point.
As long as you are introspective enough to reduce the impact of cognitive bias (such as Dunning-Kruger) on your self-assessment.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Especially since we all know Government officials never mismanage anything or never make poor decisions 🤡 ...................


Dismissed as an extension of your straw manning.


----------



## CBH99

Wait a tic...

The other day, someone (I believe it was Blackadder) informed me that I mistakenly focused my frustration about the slow rate of vaccinations towards the wrong person.

Now I read this article, and it appears that our Minister of Municipal Affairs was vacationing in the tropics around the same time the vaccines were being delivered & becoming available?  WTF?


People's lives and careers are on the line, our economy is on the line, people's mental health is tanking pretty hard... how on earth does someone decide "Ya know, even though I could put my foot down & push for some really meaningful results.  I'm going to go suntan instead."


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Caution: 'Greater Victoria' is not just 'The City of Victoria'.
> 
> It includes 13 separate municipalities (or 'Dutchies') covering about the same geographical area as Etobicoke, I think.


Knew that. Time to amalgamate, mate. Ottawa merged 11 area municipalities and one regional municipality in 2001. Almost three times the population of Greater Victoria, with about a quarter of elected municipal officials. (Mayor and 23 councillors)


----------



## dapaterson

...and Ottawa has massive dysfunction, a clique of suburban councillors who dominate and denigrate the city proper while having central neighbourhoods shoulder a disproportionate share of costs.  Meanwhile, the municipal police force is a cesspool of thugs and corruption, the city planning department has staff who do illegal developments of their own without sanction, and the mayor knowingly withheld information from council that a favoured proponent for a multi-billion dollar contract had failed the technical evaluation, resulting in that failed bid being awarded said contract.

Other than that, though, amalgamation has been meh.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> Knew that. Time to amalgamate, mate. Ottawa merged 11 area municipalities and one regional municipality in 2001. Almost three times the population of Greater Victoria, with about a quarter of elected municipal officials. (Mayor and 23 councillors)


Dude.... this has been an ongoing issue for decades. Too many rice bowls involved!


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:


> WTF. More than 80 municipal councillors. Now that is the real scandal.


Yup.  My thoughts exactly 



daftandbarmy said:


> Caution: 'Greater Victoria' is not just 'The City of Victoria'.
> 
> It includes 13 separate municipalities (or 'Dutchies') covering about the same geographical area as Etobicoke, I think.



Oh, what an anomaly in the Canadian municipal context.... 🤯

Seriously, though...

Victoria CRD (ie. The vast expanse of Victorian area civilization...civil at least now they’re not ejecting raw feces into Nature any more [....errr, except during heavy rainstorms]):
• Pop: 383,000
• Area: 2340 km2
• Councillors: 80

So on average one councillor per 4,790 citizens and per 29 km2 of region...and, let’s just say for comparison’s sake, the heart of Governmental excess representation... 

Ottawa
• Pop: 934,000
• Area: 2,790 km2
• Councillors: 23

One councillor per 40,600 citizens (yup, compared to 4,790 Victorians per...8.5x more constituents per Ottawa councillor) and per 121 km2, or 5x more regional area of responsibility per Ottawa councillor.

Seems like a municipal government run amok and spending huge amounts of taxpayers’ money, where other municipalities across Canada are much more frugal with their constituents’ money.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> ...and Ottawa has massive dysfunction, a clique of suburban councillors who dominate and denigrate the city proper while having central neighbourhoods shoulder a disproportionate share of costs.  Meanwhile, the municipal police force is a cesspool of thugs and corruption, the city planning department has staff who do illegal developments of their own without sanction, and the mayor knowingly withheld information from council that a favoured proponent for a multi-billion dollar contract had failed the technical evaluation, resulting in that failed bid being awarded said contract.
> 
> Other than that, though, amalgamation has been meh.


Other than the above, any concerns?


----------



## OceanBonfire

CAF COVID-19 Vaccine Prioritization:



> __ https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/posts/3099972960229885
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/department...geon-general-caf-vaccine-rollout-message.html





>


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> Yup.  My thoughts exactly
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, what an anomaly in the Canadian municipal context.... 🤯
> 
> Seriously, though...
> 
> Victoria CRD (ie. The vast expanse of Victorian area civilization...civil at least now they’re not ejecting raw feces into Nature any more [....errr, except during heavy rainstorms]):
> • Pop: 383,000
> • Area: 2340 km2
> • Councillors: 80
> 
> So on average one councillor per 4,790 citizens and per 29 km2 of region...and, let’s just say for comparison’s sake, the heart of Governmental excess representation...
> 
> Ottawa
> • Pop: 934,000
> • Area: 2,790 km2
> • Councillors: 23
> 
> One councillor per 40,600 citizens (yup, compared to 4,790 Victorians per...8.5x more constituents per Ottawa councillor) and per 121 km2, or 5x more regional area of responsibility per Ottawa councillor.
> 
> Seems like a municipal government run amok and spending huge amounts of taxpayers’ money, where other municipalities across Canada are much more frugal with their constituents’ money.
> 
> Regards
> G2G


But in Victoria we're so 'special' we _deserve _the extra care and attention, don't you know


----------



## Jarnhamar

Rod Phillips talking about making sacrifices over Christmas and "some citizens" who won't even be home for Christmas. Well he wasn't lying about that.


----------



## mariomike

As of yesterday, Toronto's paramedics began receiving Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine. 

Mayor John Tory said members of the Toronto Paramedic Services Community Paramedicine team will be inoculated today and tomorrow and that team, in turn, will be trained on how to administer vaccines to other paramedics.

"Paramedics in our city, who have done such a fantastic job during the pandemic and of course every other day as well, are an extension of our emergency departments and play a vital role in our response to the pandemic," Mayor Tory said at a news conference on Wednesday.


----------



## HiTechComms

Yeah the (Victoria) entire city is so special it should have a wall built around it and the sewage it dumps into the ocean should be used to fill it in.


----------



## CBH99

HiTechComms said:


> Yeah the (Victoria) entire city is so special it should have a wall built around it and the sewage it dumps into the ocean should be used to fill it in.


Always surprised me that for an area of the country which is so openly pro-environment EVERYTHING (which isn't a bad thing by any means) - that they of all people still pump their sewage & waste chemicals out into the ocean.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> Always surprised me that for an area of the country which is so openly pro-environment EVERYTHING (which isn't a bad thing by any means) - that they of all people still pump their sewage & waste chemicals out into the ocean.


Not since last December 15th. https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/...water-treatment-plant-now-operating-1.5232326

And only for $800 million +


----------



## kev994

OceanBonfire said:


> CAF COVID-19 Vaccine Prioritization:


A bunch of my buddies flying SAR for USCG got their first dose today. Interesting comparison since I’m doing an identical job here, best case scenario I’m several months away.


----------



## Navy_Pete

daftandbarmy said:


> Not since last December 15th. https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/...water-treatment-plant-now-operating-1.5232326
> 
> And only for $800 million +


Huh, about time. Guessing the expense is because it's a tertiary system; so it separates everything out, then actively filters and treats the water. The output isn't potable, but is a lot cleaner than what most plants put out. Looks kind of close to sea level though; hopefully they were smarter than the Halifax folks and didn't put the control room below sea level (which weirdly enough left it susceptible to flooding when there was a system failure).

A quick primer on the difference between primary, secondary and tertiary treatment is here in case you are curious; 

https://www.organicawater.com/primary-secondary-tertiary-wastewater-treatment-work/

Most places only do primary which basically just filters out the poo and other random solids. These extra levels will help get rid of things like pharmeceuticals and other common contaminants, as well as nitrates and phosphates that contribute to algae blooms and similarly messes up the ocean's habitat.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Senator co-signed order barring international travel during pandemic — then went to Mexico​Conservative Sen. Don Plett — who sparked controversy by travelling to Mexico on vacation over the holidays — co-signed a directive last year barring all MPs and senators from travelling outside Canada as part of interparliamentary delegations.

The directive, initially signed in March and renewed repeatedly, is still in effect. It is expected to be renewed again before it expires on Feb. 5.

The directive was adopted unanimously by MPs and senators on the Joint Interparliamentary Council (JIC). It instructs all interparliamentary associations to "cancel or postpone any mission presently being planned during this period." It applies to trips to other countries planned by MPs and senators, as well as trips to Canada by foreign elected officials.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/senate-travel-plett-mexico-1.5866272


----------



## Holedigger

Jarnhamar said:


> Senator co-signed order barring international travel during pandemic — then went to Mexico​Conservative Sen. Don Plett — who sparked controversy by travelling to Mexico on vacation over the holidays — co-signed a directive last year barring all MPs and senators from travelling outside Canada as part of interparliamentary delegations.
> 
> The directive, initially signed in March and renewed repeatedly, is still in effect. It is expected to be renewed again before it expires on Feb. 5.
> 
> The directive was adopted unanimously by MPs and senators on the Joint Interparliamentary Council (JIC). It instructs all interparliamentary associations to "cancel or postpone any mission presently being planned during this period." It applies to trips to other countries planned by MPs and senators, as well as trips to Canada by foreign elected officials.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/senate-travel-plett-mexico-1.5866272


It might have slipped his mind that he had signed the order before.


----------



## Weinie

Holedigger said:


> It might have slipped his mind that he had signed the order before.


It wasn't _Senator_ Don Plett travelling, it was _Vacationer_ Don Plett travelling.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Circling 'round back to discussion from the spring about how much front-line workers are getting paid ....


> When two women living in an Ottawa homeless shelter tested positive for COVID-19 last spring causing an outbreak, Dr. Jeff Turnbull couldn’t understand how they had become infected.
> 
> But then he learned that, although they slept at the shelter each night, the homeless women worked as personal support workers during the day in long-term care homes.
> 
> “It turns out that they live in a shelter, but they work outside of the shelter. They just can’t earn enough money to afford Ottawa’s rental circumstances,” Turnbull, the medical director of Inner City Health, told Ontario’s Long Term Care Commission last month.
> 
> “And where do they work? Long-term care. And so they brought COVID from a long-term care facility into the shelters where we had an outbreak.”
> 
> The commission has heard hundreds of hours of testimony — much of it shocking — since it was launched last fall to investigate the spread of COVID-19 in Ontario’s long-term care homes. But Turnbull’s revelation about the reality of trying to live on a personal support worker’s wages could be the most stunning ...


And these are personal support workers, not RN's or RPN's - PSW's make up the bulk of the hands-on staff in most homes, private-sector or not-for-profit.


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> Not since last December 15th. https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/...water-treatment-plant-now-operating-1.5232326
> 
> And only for $800 million +


...except for when it rains a lot...then the combined sewage and storm water overwhelms the brand new 3/4 billion dollar system and vomits forth raw, into the beautiful BC ocean waters...

...still a ‘shit show’...quite literally.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> ...except for when it rains a lot...then the combined sewage and storm water overwhelms the brand new 3/4 billion dollar system and vomits forth raw, into the beautiful BC ocean waters...
> 
> ...still a ‘shit show’...quite literally.


It's OK, they've posted nice warnings on the CRD website. Still in effect for over a week:









						Alerts and Notices
					





					www.crd.bc.ca


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK, they've posted nice warnings on the CRD website. Still in effect for over a week:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alerts and Notices
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.crd.bc.ca


And everybody "shits' on me for not liking/eating lobster. Bon appetit.


----------



## dapaterson

The Bread Guy said:


> Circling 'round back to discussion from the spring about how much front-line workers are getting paid ....
> 
> And these are personal support workers, not RN's or RPN's - PSW's make up the bulk of the hands-on staff in most homes, private-sector or not-for-profit.


Most made slightly more than minimum wage, and relied on multiple jobs to get by.  With restrictions put in place to limit them to a single job, many can't afford rent.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, we never pay attention to them either, so....

Military medical intelligence warnings gathered dust as public health struggled to define COVID-19​Public health officials failed to cite early warnings about the threat of COVID-19 gathered through classified military intelligence as the pandemic crisis emerged a year ago, CBC News has learned — an oversight described as a strategic failure by intelligence and public health experts.

For over seven decades, Canada and some of its closest allies have operated a largely secret formal exchange of military medical intelligence. That relationship regularly produces troves of highly detailed data on emerging health threats.

The small, specialized unit within the Canadian military's intelligence branch began producing warnings about COVID-19 in early January of last year — assessments based largely on classified allied intelligence. Those warnings generally were three weeks ahead of other open sources, say defence insiders.

But documents show the Public Health Agency of Canada's (PHAC) COVID-19 rapid risk assessments — which politicians and public servants used to guide their choices in early days of the pandemic — contained no input from the military's warnings, which remain classified.

Three of the five PHAC risk assessments — obtained under access to information law by one of the country's leading intelligence experts and CBC News — show federal health officials relying almost exclusively on assessments from the World Health Organization.

Even those writing the risk assessment reports acknowledged the dearth of intelligence.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-military-medical-intelligence-1.5866627?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_230734


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, we never pay attention to them either, so....
> 
> Military medical intelligence warnings gathered dust as public health struggled to define COVID-19​Public health officials failed to cite early warnings about the threat of COVID-19 gathered through classified military intelligence as the pandemic crisis emerged a year ago, CBC News has learned — an oversight described as a strategic failure by intelligence and public health experts.
> 
> For over seven decades, Canada and some of its closest allies have operated a largely secret formal exchange of military medical intelligence. That relationship regularly produces troves of highly detailed data on emerging health threats.
> 
> The small, specialized unit within the Canadian military's intelligence branch began producing warnings about COVID-19 in early January of last year — assessments based largely on classified allied intelligence. Those warnings generally were three weeks ahead of other open sources, say defence insiders.
> 
> But documents show the Public Health Agency of Canada's (PHAC) COVID-19 rapid risk assessments — which politicians and public servants used to guide their choices in early days of the pandemic — contained no input from the military's warnings, which remain classified.
> 
> Three of the five PHAC risk assessments — obtained under access to information law by one of the country's leading intelligence experts and CBC News — show federal health officials relying almost exclusively on assessments from the World Health Organization.
> 
> Even those writing the risk assessment reports acknowledged the dearth of intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-military-medical-intelligence-1.5866627?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_230734



One of the problems is Canada lacks a proper National Security Strategy. As a result, Interagency Cooperation is really just a suggestion a lot of the time.



The one National Security Strategy we did publish, *"Securing an Open Society : Canada's National Security Policy"* was put out in 2004.  You can read it here:






						Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web
					






					publications.gc.ca
				




I find it interesting to look at all the things it said we were going to do. Especially given this document was written as a result of 9/11/2001 but also prior to the Pre-2008 Global Recession.

There were organizations and systems that we established and then abandoned which it turns out were really good ideas:

"Lapse in early pandemic warning system ‘a colossal failure,’ says former federal Liberal health minister Dosanjh"​
https://www.hilltimes.com/2020/09/2...al-failure-says-former-health-minister/265336

I will say that our Country isn't the only one who failed at this, most Western Countries have.  It's really, as one of my favorite Military Commentators says: *"the dangers of ignoring strategic intelligence"*.

"One would think that governments would be paying a lot more attention to strategic intelligence, and the current and developing strategic threats, along with strategic forecasting. This sadly appears not to be the case as *it is evident that erroneous intelligence impacts greatly on current thinking and strategies—especially when the initiative has been lost and the tipping point is approaching.*

If governments continue to *base their strategic predications on thumb-sucking, misinformed media articles and ‘opinion pieces’, ill-informed advisors, and incorrect narrative-driven assumptions, instead of verified and credible strategic intelligence, tragedy awaits them as they place their national and vital interests at risk**.* The richer they are in resources, the greater the risk and the subsequent looming tragedy."

http://eebenbarlowsmilitaryandsecur...016/09/the-dangers-of-ignoring-strategic.html


----------



## daftandbarmy

Of course, OTOH, a savvy intelligence agency can use pandemics to their benefit through exploiting divisions and recruiting more sources, I would think 

Is it time for Western intelligence agencies to treat pandemics as security threats?​'Pandemics can alter the geopolitical balance,' says former senior intelligence official Greg Fyffe​ In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks two decades ago, stunned and shaken Western allies scrambled to set up a terrorism intelligence exchange among themselves — a dedicated intelligence stream between the partners of the "Five Eyes" alliance to warn them of future attacks. 
A former senior Canadian intelligence official now predicts that five-member intelligence alliance — between Canada, the United States, Britain, Australia and New Zealand — will follow a similar path in the wake of COVID-19 by pooling medical intelligence that could provide early warning of the next pandemic.

Such a notion could be controversial because — despite the economic and social devastation caused by COVID-19 — many within the defence and intelligence communities don't consider the threat of a pandemic to be a pure issue of national security.

 But global pandemics — like wars and terrorist assaults — create vast suffering and political instability and should be treated as a problem for intelligence agencies, said Greg Fyffe, former executive director of the Intelligence Assessment Secretariat in the Privy Council Office, which provides direct support and advice to the Prime Minister's Office. 

"The consequences of a pandemic can be very serious in terms of the health of armies and the health of populations," Fyffe told CBC News.

"They can generate national security issues directly, as we've seen in some cases when there's actually revolts and demonstrations. Pandemics can alter the geopolitical balance."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pa...p=newsletter_CBC British Columbia_1633_231752


----------



## Weinie

If there is any veracity to the report below, the ramifications are massive.

Quebec researchers say they have found the first effective tablet drug to fight the coronavirus | CTV News


----------



## PMedMoe

Weinie said:


> If there is any veracity to the report below, the ramifications are massive.
> 
> Quebec researchers say they have found the first effective tablet drug to fight the coronavirus | CTV News


That is good news.


----------



## ModlrMike

It will be interesting to read the completed study results.


----------



## PMedMoe

Bit more info here: Colchicine reduces the risk of COVID-19-related complications


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:


> Bit more info here: Colchicine reduces the risk of COVID-19-related complications


Passing strange that no other media outlet has picked up on this.....................


----------



## Blackadder1916

Perhaps too many recall chloroquine or Remdesivir or . . . or . . .  from the early days of the pandemic to get all that jazzed about the next great thing being announced by press release.  Personally, I take a jaundiced view when "scientists" make such announcements in advance of publishing even preliminary findings in peer reviewed journals.  At least this Canadian study of colchicine seems to be the most rigorous (or at least the largest) of the colchicine studies; once the study is completed (they give March 2021 as completion date) maybe there will be time for celebration. There is literature out there about the potential for colchicine in Covid-19 treatment and it has been looked at since the beginning of the pandemic.

From July 2020 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7367785/


----------



## dapaterson

The most interesting thing my readings have seen is the suggestion that low doss aspirin as and anti-coagulant may be of benefit.  No double blind tests yet, but positive results.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> The most interesting thing my readings have seen is the suggestion that low doss aspirin as and anti-coagulant may be of benefit.  No double blind tests yet, but positive results.





Blackadder1916 said:


> Perhaps too many recall chloroquine or Remdesivir or . . . or . . .  from the early days of the pandemic to get all that jazzed about the next great thing being announced by press release.  Personally, I take a jaundiced view when "scientists" make such announcements in advance of publishing even preliminary findings in peer reviewed journals.  At least this Canadian study of colchicine seems to be the most rigorous (or at least the largest) of the colchicine studies; once the study is completed (they give 21 March as completion date) maybe there will be time for celebration. There is literature out there about the potential for colchicine in Covid-19 treatment and it has been looked at since the beginning of the pandemic.
> 
> From July 2020 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7367785/


Yup, but most Canadian studies have stayed well clear of the above.......reputation being paramount.

This, if disproved, would set back the institute and the BQ government , as Blanchet himself has stated that they had made significant progress.

An update, perhaps I was just paranoid, some folks seem to be recognizing that something is up.

Researchers tout 'major scientifc discovery' in $14M study for COVID-19 treatment | CBC News


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, more chicanery being exhibited by those who should know better:

A Whitby, Ont. doctor and her husband, who contracted the U.K. COVID-19 variant, have been charged after they allegedly mislead contact tracers.

Dr. Martina Weir, a physician with privileges at Lakeridge Health, the Fairview Lodge and the Hillsdale Terraces long-term care homes, has been charged with provincial offences under the Health Protection and Promotion Act. Her husband Brian Weir, who works for Toronto Paramedic Service in a non-patient facing role, has also been charged.



https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/mobile/o...llegedly-misleading-contact-tracers-1.5277338


----------



## PMedMoe

Makes you wonder who they thought they were protecting.  I hope the "recent arrival" from the UK is also being charged with failure to self-isolate.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> A Whitby, Ont. doctor and her husband, who contracted the U.K. COVID-19 variant, have been charged after they allegedly mislead contact tracers.



It amazes me people are still going out and getting tested when they have mild symptoms. Sit in a line up for hours, get your brain swabbed then rely on an inaccurate PCR result that could sequester you for 2 weeks in your home. All these lockdowns and curfews are based on daily case numbers that freak people out, yet they keep lining up in droves when they have a scratchy throat or runny nose. If you are a single person on an income that's dependent on you going to work, what incentive do you have to get yourself a positive test and stay home for 2 weeks? You take away the crazy daily case numbers and life would go back to normal.


----------



## GR66

Quirky said:


> It amazes me people are still going out and getting tested when they have mild symptoms. Sit in a line up for hours, get your brain swabbed then rely on an inaccurate PCR result that could sequester you for 2 weeks in your home. All these lockdowns and curfews are based on daily case numbers that freak people out, yet they keep lining up in droves when they have a scratchy throat or runny nose. If you are a single person on an income that's dependent on you going to work, what incentive do you have to get yourself a positive test and stay home for 2 weeks? You take away the crazy daily case numbers and life would go back to normal.


Ah yes...the old stop the testing and reporting and the whole Covid thing will go away strategy!

Tell that to my sister-in-law who's SW Ontario hospital has doubled it's Covid admissions in the last week and are having to take overflow patients from the GTA.  They had meetings this past week to discuss the protocols of triaging patients to determine who gets treatment and who doesn't when (as is projected for February) they may no longer have the capacity to treat every admission.

Or my niece who tells me that Sick Kids is having to take in patients from multiple other hospitals who are no longer able to admit pediatric cases as they are having to use those beds to house Covid patients.  The pediatric ICU unit is already over capacity and they are expecting it to get worse.

So maybe these people are going and getting tested because they are being responsible citizens and want to ensure that they aren't passing on what could in some cases be a deadly illness to people that may not be fortunate enough to get a mild infection from the virus, or to hopefully help to prevent our health care system from becoming overwhelmed?


----------



## RangerRay

Quirky said:


> It amazes me people are still going out and getting tested when they have mild symptoms. Sit in a line up for hours, get your brain swabbed then rely on an inaccurate PCR result that could sequester you for 2 weeks in your home. All these lockdowns and curfews are based on daily case numbers that freak people out, yet they keep lining up in droves when they have a scratchy throat or runny nose. If you are a single person on an income that's dependent on you going to work, what incentive do you have to get yourself a positive test and stay home for 2 weeks? You take away the crazy daily case numbers and life would go back to normal.


I wish I did get tested when I had “mild symptoms”. I went to work with a runny nose and scratchy throat thinking is was a mild head cold. The next day, I stayed home when those symptoms turned into a bad head cold. These symptoms still did not appear on our COVID symptoms list so I spent the day resting with my family. That night I got a mild fever so I got tested the next day. Positive. How many people did I infect because I thought I “just had a cold”?  In the end, I was barricaded away from my family for two weeks and I missed six weeks of work. So I won’t tell anyone to not get tested if they have mild symptoms.


----------



## Quirky

GR66 said:


> Tell that to my sister-in-law who's SW Ontario hospital has doubled it's Covid admissions in the last week and are having to take overflow patients from the GTA. They had meetings this past week to discuss the protocols of triaging patients to determine who gets treatment and who doesn't when (as is projected for February) they may no longer have the capacity to treat every admission.



Ontario has had hospital capacity issues long before covid ever showed up. Every year there is a huge surge of patients during the winter months, operating at over 100% is nothing new. 






						Ontario Hospital Association Welcomes Winter Surge Plan
					

/CNW/ - The Ontario Hospital Association (OHA) welcomes today's announcement of a surge plan to assist hospitals and the home and community care sectors in...




					www.newswire.ca
				




"Some of the province's largest hospitals experienced, and continue to experience, occupancy levels exceeding 100 per cent. In response, hundreds of unbudgeted beds have been opened province-wide. These conditions triggered calls for an aggressive investment in services in 2017-18 to avoid a possible crisis within Ontario's health care system."

From 2017. 



GR66 said:


> Ah yes...the old stop the testing and reporting and the whole Covid thing will go away strategy!
> 
> So maybe these people are going and getting tested because they are being responsible citizens and want to ensure that they aren't passing on what could in some cases be a deadly illness to people that may not be fortunate enough to get a mild infection from the virus, or to hopefully help to prevent our health care system from becoming overwhelmed?



We had all summer to prepare for a second wave and didn't expand ICU capacities to prevent overflow and here we are, second lockdown later same thing is happening again. We didn't protect the already sick, old and vulnerable, everything up to this point has been a complete and utter failure including the vaccine rollouts. This is a never-ending cycle with no end in sight. 

It's easy for public service or military folk to "just stay home" and wait days for results. Not everyone is spoiled and can collect paycheques from their homes. Getting a test done means no salary for a lot of people and when people get desperate enough, they stop caring about others. This was the case pre-pandemic and I don't expect the whole 'be a responsible citizen' to last much longer. People are getting sick of lock downs and curfews, if widespread travel bans come into effect, you'll see some really pissed off 'responsible citizens'. Stay home, stay safe, go mental.


----------



## GR66

Quirky said:


> We had all summer to prepare for a second wave and didn't expand ICU capacities to prevent overflow and here we are, second lockdown later same thing is happening again. We didn't protect the already sick, old and vulnerable, everything up to this point has been a complete and utter failure including the vaccine rollouts. This is a never-ending cycle with no end in sight.
> 
> It's easy for public service or military folk to "just stay home" and wait days for results. Not everyone is spoiled and can collect paycheques from their homes. Getting a test done means no salary for a lot of people and when people get desperate enough, they stop caring about others. This was the case pre-pandemic and I don't expect the whole 'be a responsible citizen' to last much longer. People are getting sick of lock downs and curfews, if widespread travel bans come into effect, you'll see some really pissed off 'responsible citizens'. Stay home, stay safe, go mental.


I don't follow your logic.  Hospitals were already facing capacity issues.  Agreed.  Responses to the first wave of Covid were ineffective.  Agreed.  Vaccine roll-outs are a failure.  Agreed.

So the solution is to stop testing, stop reporting and remove restrictions and let the virus run uncontrolled?  You've already agreed that hospitals are facing the risk of being overwhelmed and long term care homes not properly protected.  Just say screw it and hope you and your loved ones make it through ok?

Instead of throwing in the towel and letting the virus spread uncontrolled, wouldn't a better solution to be to find a way to support those that have to miss work in order to isolate?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> Ontario has had hospital capacity issues long before covid ever showed up. Every year there is a huge surge of patients during the winter months, operating at over 100% is nothing new.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario Hospital Association Welcomes Winter Surge Plan
> 
> 
> /CNW/ - The Ontario Hospital Association (OHA) welcomes today's announcement of a surge plan to assist hospitals and the home and community care sectors in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newswire.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had all summer to prepare for a second wave and didn't expand ICU capacities to prevent overflow and here we are, second lockdown later same thing is happening again. We didn't protect the already sick, old and vulnerable, everything up to this point has been a complete and utter failure including the vaccine rollouts. This is a never-ending cycle with no end in sight.





GR66 said:


> I don't follow your logic.  Hospitals were already facing capacity issues.  Agreed.  Responses to the first wave of Covid were ineffective.  Agreed.  Vaccine roll-outs are a failure.  Agreed.
> 
> So the solution is to stop testing, stop reporting and remove restrictions and let the virus run uncontrolled?  You've already agreed that hospitals are facing the risk of being overwhelmed and long term care homes not properly protected.  Just say screw it and hope you and your loved ones make it through ok?
> 
> Instead of throwing in the towel and letting the virus spread uncontrolled, wouldn't a better solution to be to find a way to support those that have to miss work in order to isolate?


 
I think the 'Income Apartheid' we're seeing as a result of COVID lock downs might be one of the reasons some people are disinclined to stay home.

If you have an office job, public service or otherwise, you can make the same amount of money working from your laptop on the dining room table. In my case, a consultant, it's immeasurably better in many cases because I don't have to travel for work.

Entrepreneurs, small businesses and other self-employed people rely on income derived from activities other than those that can be delivered via Zoom calls. There is no way to compensate these people for the lost economic opportunities they are experiencing, whether it's related to federal compensation or otherwise. 

So, I can imagine that some people are just keeping their illnesses to themselves and gettign on with making a living, becasue the alternative is not tenable.


----------



## PuckChaser

daftandbarmy said:


> So, I can imagine that some people are just keeping their illnesses to themselves and gettign on with making a living, becasue the alternative is not tenable.


And because the actual consequences of them being sick are not there. When 99% of 59 and under age group cases (Ontario data) do not even result in hospitalization, there's no threat to their personal health to "stay home and stay safe". Human beings are selfish, especially when you're targeting the bottom layer of their Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:


> When 99% of 59 and under age group cases (Ontario data) do not even result in hospitalization, there's no threat to their personal health


You can have cancer for a long time before you need 'hospitalization' or never.........still have zero desire to get it.   And take precautions....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Weinie said:


> And everybody "shits' on me for not liking/eating lobster. Bon appetit.


Cockroach of the sea.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You can have cancer for a long time before you need 'hospitalization' or never.........still have zero desire to get it.   And take precautions....


Cancer will eventually produce enough symptoms to require hospitalization, you can't catch it from someone and is a ridiculous false equivalency. COVID-19 gives you the sniffles and goes away in a few days unless you have some underlying conditions where it hits like a mack truck.

Maybe my view is biased by actually watching a COVID-19 outbreak in a healthy, working age population living in communal living with shared washrooms. Less than half of the "high risk" individuals actually tested positive, and half of those positive tests ever ended up with symptoms. Worst hit folks felt like a 2-3 day flu.

If lockdowns and masks worked, Florida should be the poster child for devastating COVID-19 deaths. Instead, their numbers closely mirror our own in Ontario, and Ontario completely botched keeping COVID out of LTCs and other senior living centers.


----------



## dapaterson

Florida: Population 21.5M, 25K COVID deaths.  Ontario population 14.5M, 5.7K COVID deaths.  Canada population 38M, 19K COVID deaths.

But don't let facts intrude on your opinions.


----------



## HiTechComms

dapaterson said:


> Florida: Population 21.5M, 25K COVID deaths.  Ontario population 14.5M, 5.7K COVID deaths.  Canada population 38M, 19K COVID deaths.
> 
> But don't let facts intrude on your opinions.


Don't let the fact that Florida has a 20.5% of its population as seniors compared to 16.7% (according to stats for 2018)for Ontario dilute your conclusion.
The older the population the higher the death rate, then again this applies to all death statistics all across the board. 

Not only that just look at the Obesity rates as well. 

Also lets account for unemployment rates.

Everyone seems to be pushing some narrative but the fact is no one has actually taken all of these factors into account.

Now I am sure some one will pose the argument for the moral justification of "life" not sure if this applies since we have legalized abortion, and euthanasia. 

My last quip would be: What is the expected and accepted casualty rate of soldiers in battles? 

If you are sick stay home, covid or not if you have a fever and sniffles and cough don't be an jerk and just stay home. I though this applies to everyone isn't this common sense?


----------



## FJAG

HiTechComms said:


> ...
> If you are sick stay home, covid or not if you have a fever and sniffles and cough don't be an jerk and just stay home. I though this applies to everyone isn't this common sense?


You'd think it would be, wouldn't you ... but no. Folks just don't work that way.


----------



## CBH99

PuckChaser said:


> Cancer will eventually produce enough symptoms to require hospitalization, you can't catch it from someone and is a ridiculous false equivalency. COVID-19 gives you the sniffles and goes away in a few days unless you have some underlying conditions where it hits like a mack truck.
> 
> Maybe my view is biased by actually watching a COVID-19 outbreak in a healthy, working age population living in communal living with shared washrooms. Less than half of the "high risk" individuals actually tested positive, and half of those positive tests ever ended up with symptoms. Worst hit folks felt like a 2-3 day flu.
> 
> If lockdowns and masks worked, Florida should be the poster child for devastating COVID-19 deaths. Instead, their numbers closely mirror our own in Ontario, and Ontario completely botched keeping COVID out of LTCs and other senior living centers.


I don't know what the Ontario policies at LTCs are...

But here in Alberta...a senior can have as many visitors as they want in a day, as long as it is only one person at a time.     I have no idea how any of the folks in leadership positions - whether it be LTCs or public health - actually qualified for their jobs, minus they probably looked good on paper...

Like I said, I don't know what the policies are in Ontario.  But ours aren't exactly the work of folks with common sense either


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> Don't let the fact that Florida has a 20.5% of its population as seniors compared to 16.7% (according to stats for 2018)for Ontario dilute your conclusion.
> The older the population the higher the death rate, then again this applies to all death statistics all across the board.
> 
> Not only that just look at the Obesity rates as well.
> 
> Also lets account for unemployment rates.
> 
> Everyone seems to be pushing some narrative but the fact is no one has actually taken all of these factors into account.
> 
> Now I am sure some one will pose the argument for the moral justification of "life" not sure if this applies since we have legalized abortion, and euthanasia.
> 
> My last quip would be: What is the expected and accepted casualty rate of soldiers in battles?
> 
> If you are sick stay home, covid or not if you have a fever and sniffles and cough don't be an jerk and just stay home. I though this applies to everyone isn't this common sense?


Adjusted for population, Florida has about 250% Ontario’s death rate. By your figures it has about 125% our population of seniors. Florida and Ontario actually have obesity rates within a couple % of each other. Unemployment rates are within a percentage of each other. Yet that pesky double death rate remains. I would suggest the possibility that the purported factors and figures you’re relying on don’t actually support your position the way you do.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:


> Florida: Population 21.5M, 25K COVID deaths.  Ontario population 14.5M, 5.7K COVID deaths.  Canada population 38M, 19K COVID deaths.
> 
> But don't let facts intrude on your opinions.


As the Sunshine State is a tourist destination, perhaps some out-of-state / province Covid infections occurred there. While their deaths occurred in their home states and provinces? And perhaps Covid  was spread to others when vacationers returned home?

Spring Break "super-spreaders" returning home, for example,









						Map shows impact Florida Spring Break goers had in spreading coronavirus across U.S.
					

Tectonix GEO analyzed secondary locations of several thousands of anonymized mobile device users.




					www.mlive.com


----------



## kratz

I'm surprised nobody has noted the PM's Foreign Affairs minister is wiling to use the Emergencies Act, successor to the War Measures Act (July 1988) to further reduce international travel. Normally, the PM has been cautious about anything that can be compared to what his father did.


----------



## Quirky

GR66 said:


> So the solution is to stop testing, stop reporting and remove restrictions and let the virus run uncontrolled?



Wear a mask, get the vaccine (when you can), protect the most vulnerable ages and those with comorbidities. Open schools, economies and industry. We are so focused on daily case counts we forget about everything else. Completely worrying about physical health only goes so far until people start to lose it mentally due to other factors. This country can't afford to pay people to stay at home, first time in history our gross debt of Canada's 3 levels of gov is bigger than our entire economy. This is a hole we won't climb out of. 



GR66 said:


> Just say screw it and hope you and your loved ones make it through ok?


I'll be fine, or not, but I'll live. I have a higher chance of winning the lotto-max than dying from covid. Expecting the local business down the road to shutdown and go bankrupt on my behalf is extremely selfish.


----------



## Furniture

kratz said:


> I'm surprised nobody has noted the PM's Foreign Affairs minister is wiling to use the Emergencies Act, successor to the War Measures Act (July 1988) to further reduce international travel. Normally, the PM has been cautious about anything that can be compared to what his father did.


I saw that yesterday, and wondered why the lack of comment online, particularly from the media.


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> Adjusted for population, Florida has about 250% Ontario’s death rate. By your figures it has about 125% our population of seniors. Florida and Ontario actually have obesity rates within a couple % of each other. Unemployment rates are within a percentage of each other. Yet that pesky double death rate remains. I would suggest the possibility that the purported factors and figures you’re relying on don’t actually support your position the way you do.


You do realize that the higher the population density is not a linear relationship. Population density is conveniently being omitted here.
I guarantee if you plot the actual trends they would be identical. North and South Dakota for example.

Average stay in LTC is 2.5 years and we are in year 1 of the flattening the curve. I guess everyone will live forever.
So hey everyone lets nearly collapse our economy and have no plan what so ever, but you know lets save the elderly at any cost, including all liberties and freedoms. We keep printing money yet we have built no hospitals, and covid cases keep going up when everything is locked down?

Which begs the question.. So if a conflict breaks out can a soldier refuse to get sent in because he might catch a "lead cold"?
If we make all these moral arguments can we make the moral argument to disband the military because "people will die" so why take any chances.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> If we make all these moral arguments can we make the moral argument to disband the military because "people will die" so why take any chances.



“So far, about morals, I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”

― Ernest Hemingway


----------



## Kilted

Quirky said:


> It amazes me people are still going out and getting tested when they have mild symptoms. Sit in a line up for hours, get your brain swabbed then rely on an inaccurate PCR result that could sequester you for 2 weeks in your home. All these lockdowns and curfews are based on daily case numbers that freak people out, yet they keep lining up in droves when they have a scratchy throat or runny nose. If you are a single person on an income that's dependent on you going to work, what incentive do you have to get yourself a positive test and stay home for 2 weeks? You take away the crazy daily case numbers and life would go back to normal.


And if you yell 'Contact!' after an ND/UD it never happened.


----------



## Navy_Pete

HiTechComms said:


> You do realize that the higher the population density is not a linear relationship. Population density is conveniently being omitted here.
> I guarantee if you plot the actual trends they would be identical. North and South Dakota for example.



Care to expand? Florida has a bit over 21 million people to Ontario's 14 million, and has 1.25M cases with 25k deaths, vice Ontario's 260k cases and 5k deaths.

If you compare cities while adjusting for population density they are still higher by a lot for COVID incidence.

They were really late to implement any mask protocols, and have a lot of non-compliance, so guess that's probably a factor, but it's not just a simple A+B situation.

I think it's a really complex relationship between a number of different factors that I don't have any expertise in, so not going to guess at why, but not really clear why you think that adjusting for pop density would make them identical. Most of Ontario lives right on the 401 corridor, with the majority within a two hour drive of downtown Toronto, so not even clear what you would use


----------



## HiTechComms

Navy_Pete said:


> Care to expand? Florida has a bit over 21 million people to Ontario's 14 million, and has 1.25M cases with 25k deaths, vice Ontario's 260k cases and 5k deaths.
> 
> If you compare cities while adjusting for population density they are still higher by a lot for COVID incidence.
> 
> They were really late to implement any mask protocols, and have a lot of non-compliance, so guess that's probably a factor, but it's not just a simple A+B situation.
> 
> I think it's a really complex relationship between a number of different factors that I don't have any expertise in, so not going to guess at why, but not really clear why you think that adjusting for pop density would make them identical. Most of Ontario lives right on the 401 corridor, with the majority within a two hour drive of downtown Toronto, so not even clear what you would use


Density of population vs any problem is almost in any case not  a linear correlation. That was one point. Because the defacto argument is always a adjusted for population but not density or demographics.

We are simply looking at one side of the equation but not the other.  Its a nuanced problem with very real consequences. Looking at you Quebec and the curfew.

Florida didn't lock down either.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Florida also has a population density around 4x that of Southern Ontario 397 per sq/km to 91 per sq/km.

The different factors are so numerous it's pointless to compare them.  Canada benefits immensely from geography.

Our geography has more to do with our relative success than any policy the Government concocts.  If these security measures actually worked, Countries in Europe would all be stellar examples of how to manage pandemics.  

Countries that did do well did so because they implemented substantive border controls early in the Pandemic.  This could also be seen in some cases at the sub-national level:  the Atlantic Wall for instance.

There have been medical journals available for months now that show lockdowns themselves have little effect on death rate.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Florida also has a population density around 4x that of Southern Ontario 397 per sq/km to 91 per sq/km.
> 
> The different factors are so numerous it's pointless to compare them.  Canada benefits immensely from geography.
> 
> Our geography has more to do with our relative success than any policy the Government concocts.  If these security measures actually worked, Countries in Europe would all be stellar examples of how to manage pandemics.
> 
> Countries that did do well did so because they implemented substantive border controls early in the Pandemic.  This could also be seen in some cases at the sub-national level:  the Atlantic Wall for instance.
> 
> There have been medical journals available for months now that show lockdowns themselves have little effect on death rate.



Balloon juice!  The reasons NS and the Maritimes have done so well has nothing to do with our low population in a large land mass and everything to do with our ever caring and effective politicians and their splendid actions!


----------



## Brad Sallows

The Emergencies Act is a much less blunt instrument than the War Measures Act was.


----------



## HiTechComms

Brad Sallows said:


> The Emergencies Act is a much less blunt instrument than the War Measures Act was.


They should have enacted this and the quarantine act right off the bat. As the politicians proclaimed this was a "war" then they should have taken then appropriate measures as one would in fighting one, but they did not in order to avoid any bad publicity or accountability.

It would have held some one accountable
Standardized practice all across the board


----------



## Retired AF Guy

mariomike said:


> As the Sunshine State is a tourist destination, perhaps some out-of-state / province Covid infections occurred there. While their deaths occurred in their home states and provinces? And perhaps Covid  was spread to others when vacationers returned home?
> 
> Spring Break "super-spreaders" returning home, for example,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Map shows impact Florida Spring Break goers had in spreading coronavirus across U.S.
> 
> 
> Tectonix GEO analyzed secondary locations of several thousands of anonymized mobile device users.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mlive.com


IIRC thats what happened in Quebec, Their Spring Break was earlier then the rest of the country and when they returned they brought the back virus with them.


----------



## kratz

Brad Sallows said:


> The Emergencies Act is a much less blunt instrument than the War Measures Act was.


Je me souviens,

I find it humorous the Quebec Premier is one of the loudest asking for the use of the Emergency Act. 
The outrage from the use of the War Measures Act during the PLQ crisis and the resulting fallout was felt for decades afterwards.


----------



## CBH99

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm#total-cases
		


Just looking at this graph here, for our weekly 'update'...  during the summer when we didn't have a lockdown, and restrictions were still in place - our numbers were fairly manageable.

Ever since they imposed this lockdown, the numbers have done nothing but gone up.  And this is from the government's own website at that.



Both sides of the argument above have valid points.  Both sides have merit, and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle.  (My own 2 cents, anyways)


We are creating economic damage beyond repair, and a mental health crisis which I personally believe far outweighs the risks of the virus.  Especially if people are wearing masks, social distancing, and being responsible.

What happens when CRB runs out?  I know quite a few people who weren't able to receive the most recent installment as Revenue Canada seems to add a few more hoops each time -- and those people are still unemployed due to no fault of their own, as our government imposed another lockdown right before Christmas.  They will be unemployed AND not be able to receive assistance.

I know a lot of people who were excited to start working again, and got back to work as soon as things started to open up again.  Only to find themselves laid off...again.



Wear masks.  Get vaccinated when able.  Be responsible.  Protect the most vulnerable populations (aka our current policy of unlimited visitors to people in LTCs, as long as it is one at a time, is beyond stupid) 

But locking everything down & actually taking legal action against people who dare leave their house is, in my own opinion, not solving anything.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Halifax Tar said:


> Balloon juice! The reasons NS and the Maritimes have done so well has nothing to do with our low population in a large land mass and everything to do with our ever caring and effective politicians and their splendid actions!


Or the single points of entry and exit.  I will admit though that NB and NS both did a good job controlling the borders initially, they also did a good job controlling intra-provincial movement when outbreaks did occur.  

NB has had a number of outbreaks spillover from Quebec but the J Division RCMP, under direction from the Provincial  EMO, did a phenomenal job cordoning regions and limiting unnecessary movement between zones within the Province. Setup VCPs along with roving patrols for the back roads and give local commanders discretion to turn people away and enforce the movement restrictions as necessary. Not travelling for official business?  Well you get go go somewhere else.

Ontario and Quebec both did a bad job doing that which is why they are where they are at now. Looking at this from a military perspective, blanket lockdowns violate a bunch of principles:

Selection and maintenance of the aim, administration, concentration of force, economy of effort, etc.  Any law or limit on civil liberties requires an enforcement mechanism. By targeting everything though, you aren't actually targeting anything 😉

Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail.  You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable?  You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.  

Instead of having Security Forces limiting unnecessary movement, you've now got them running around breaking up kids ice skating, busting in on peoples private residences, taking little targeted action and achieving exactly nothing.

Or there is the fact that the disease is probably _cough_ airborne _cough_ but nobody will say it because it will mean no workplace is actually safe and that would open up a bunch of refusal to work due to unsafe workplaces which is a can of worms we just can't have.


----------



## HiTechComms

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Or the single points of entry and exit.  I will admit though that NB and NS both did a good job controlling the borders initially, they also did a good job controlling intra-provincial movement when outbreaks did occur.
> 
> NB has had a number of outbreaks spillover from Quebec but the J Division RCMP, under direction from the Provincial  EMO, did a phenomenal job cordoning regions and limiting unnecessary movement between zones within the Province. Setup VCPs along with roving patrols for the back roads and give local commanders discretion to turn people away and enforce the movement restrictions as necessary. Not travelling for official business?  Well you get go go somewhere else.
> 
> Ontario and Quebec both did a bad job doing that which is why they are where they are at now. Looking at this from a military perspective, blanket lockdowns violate a bunch of principles:
> 
> Selection and maintenance of the aim, administration, concentration of force, economy of effort, etc.  Any law or limit on civil liberties requires an enforcement mechanism. By targeting everything though, you aren't actually targeting anything 😉
> 
> Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail.  You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable?  You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.
> 
> Instead of having Security Forces limiting unnecessary movement, you've now got them running around breaking up kids ice skating, busting in on peoples private residences, taking little targeted action and achieving exactly nothing.
> 
> Or there is the fact that the disease is probably _cough_ airborne _cough_ but nobody will say it because it will mean no workplace is actually safe and that would open up a bunch of refusal to work due to unsafe workplaces which is a can of worms we just can't have.


How about just declare the Constitution null and void and suspend everyone's privileges. Lets just lock everyone down at the  end of a gun.

God forbid if a war breaks out and Canada has to participate.. Oh the pearl clutching will be phenomenal.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Blanket lockdowns are the disease fighting equivalent of Carpet Bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail.  You drop a bunch of ordnance but did you actually really achieve anything measurable?  You also cause a bunch of spillover damage that won't be accounted for until long after this is over.


That is such a great quote.  I'm stealing that...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Halifax Tar said:


> That is such a great quote.  I'm stealing that...



Don't encourage him or he might start sharing lifestyle advice too


----------



## mariomike

GR66 said:


> Ah yes...the old stop the testing and reporting and the whole Covid thing will go away strategy!
> 
> Tell that to my sister-in-law who's SW Ontario hospital has doubled it's Covid admissions in the last week and are having to take overflow patients from the GTA.  They had meetings this past week to discuss the protocols of triaging patients to determine who gets treatment and who doesn't when (as is projected for February) they may no longer have the capacity to treat every admission.
> 
> Or my niece who tells me that Sick Kids is having to take in patients from multiple other hospitals who are no longer able to admit pediatric cases as they are having to use those beds to house Covid patients.  The pediatric ICU unit is already over capacity and they are expecting it to get worse.
> 
> So maybe these people are going and getting tested because they are being responsible citizens and want to ensure that they aren't passing on what could in some cases be a deadly illness to people that may not be fortunate enough to get a mild infection from the virus, or to hopefully help to prevent our health care system from becoming overwhelmed?


Right. Politics aside, that is the reality for front-line Operations,
CBC Toronto on Twitter: "Monday marks one year since the first case of COVID-19 was confirmed in Canada, in a patient who came to Toronto's Sunnybrook Hospital after returning from Wuhan, China. We spoke to two Toronto paramedics as they reflected on the last year. Read more: https://t.co/CoY6duy7ix https://t.co/MUoZsYuPlm" / Twitter


----------



## Weinie

The article below is concerning.

Canada's vaccine deliveries further threatened as Europe mulls export controls (msn.com)

And I have been *mulling* how the inevitable friction between global good, altruism, business, and national interests would manifest. This may be an early indication of the decisions that politicians will get forced into, in many cases for self (and Party) preservation.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> The article below is concerning.
> 
> Canada's vaccine deliveries further threatened as Europe mulls export controls (msn.com)
> 
> And I have been *mulling* how the friction between global good, altruism, business, and national interests would roll out. This may be an early indication of the decisions that politicians will get forced into, in many cases for self (and Party) preservation.



We have to be able to help ourselves, as a nation, to overcome all types of obstacles. This latest crisis is a good reminder of that 'eternal and perpetual' fact:

“We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.”​
― Lord Palmerston


----------



## lenaitch

Maybe they were having trouble getting the microchip to implant the other way:









						China Begins Anal Swab Testing To Detect COVID-19
					

Anal swab method is being used in Beijing, and Chinese experts are saying that it's more accurate than the other methods. Read the details here.




					interestingengineering.com
				




Would make testing at airports quite interesting.


----------



## Weinie

lenaitch said:


> Maybe they were having trouble getting the microchip to implant the other way:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Begins Anal Swab Testing To Detect COVID-19
> 
> 
> Anal swab method is being used in Beijing, and Chinese experts are saying that it's more accurate than the other methods. Read the details here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interestingengineering.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would make testing at airports quite interesting.


China has been reverse engineering things for decades now, no surprise here.


----------



## CBH99

Weinie said:


> China has been reverse engineering things for decades now, no surprise here.


It's more accurate than the other methods??  Ummmmm...

Granted Covid tests aren't particularly reliable.  I'd still take the brain swab over the anal swab any day.  😬


----------



## Weinie

CBH99 said:


> It's more accurate than the other methods??  Ummmmm...
> 
> Granted Covid tests aren't particularly reliable.  I'd still take the brain swab over the anal swab any day.  😬


I'd take the stab swab, the 12 gauge shotgun swab, the shave off my skin swab, and/or the cut off an appendage with a chainsaw with no anesthetic swab first. Just sayin.


----------



## Kat Stevens

I have to stand six feet from anybody else, both wearing three layers of HEPA filtration  in order to not give them the COVIDS, but the only reliable way to see if I have it is to bore down to the basement suite of my sinuses with an alien probe that was designed for a completely different cavity. All that to detect a disease that, apparently, one of the symptoms to look for is that I don’t have any symptoms. Ducking stools to follow shortly. The self isolation is pretty nice, though.


----------



## CBH99

Kat Stevens said:


> I have to stand six feet from anybody else, both wearing three layers of HEPA filtration  in order to not give them the COVIDS, but the only reliable way to see if I have it is to bore down to the basement suite of my sinuses with an alien probe that was designed for a completely different cavity. All that to detect a disease that, apparently, one of the symptoms to look for is that I don’t have any symptoms. Ducking stools to follow shortly. The self isolation is pretty nice, though.


That was the most elegantly phrased description of this that I possibly could have read    Copying this when talking topeople at work about it


----------



## PuckChaser

lenaitch said:


> Maybe they were having trouble getting the microchip to implant the other way:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China Begins Anal Swab Testing To Detect COVID-19
> 
> 
> Anal swab method is being used in Beijing, and Chinese experts are saying that it's more accurate than the other methods. Read the details here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> interestingengineering.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would make testing at airports quite interesting.


Probably the only way to access the nasal cavity of politicians, who seem to be the only ones travelling nowadays...


----------



## Weinie

PuckChaser said:


> Probably the only way to access the nasal cavity of politicians, who seem to be the only ones travelling nowadays...


Good point, as many seem to have their heads in their ass.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, as long as they don't annex the Sudetenland this time....


EU threatens war-time occupation of vaccine makers as AstraZeneca crisis spirals​Invoking powers that would allow the European Council to seize intellectual property and data from pharmaceutical companies would be madness

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...0r43__f-3llON6mPnMO1xmemKykMPbBTbVlM21a5293iQ


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, as long as they don't annex the Sudetenland this time....
> 
> 
> EU threatens war-time occupation of vaccine makers as AstraZeneca crisis spirals​Invoking powers that would allow the European Council to seize intellectual property and data from pharmaceutical companies would be madness
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...0r43__f-3llON6mPnMO1xmemKykMPbBTbVlM21a5293iQ


I'm sure the bumbling bureaucracy that is the EU will do a far better job managing an industry they have absolutely no understanding of.

Imagine if they did this here.... we would have a Vaccine in about a decade with about 10 sub-committees and studies commissioned beforehand.

😄


----------



## mariomike

In the news,

Never forget ...that the people who are accused of participating in the 9/11 attacks will get the COVID-19 vaccine at Gitmo.

Didn't have OJ getting stabbed by a white woman on my BINGO card either. 
He Tweeted a pic of a nurse giving him his Covid shot.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> In the news,
> 
> Never forget ...that the people who are accused of participating in the 9/11 attacks will get the COVID-19 vaccine at Gitmo.
> 
> Didn't have OJ getting stabbed by a white woman on my BINGO card either.
> He Tweeted a pic of a nurse giving him his Covid shot.



Good. They're testing the 'first draft' for us 

(Never be first, never be last, and never, ever, volunteer for anything  )


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm not sure if this Covid thing will be a big deal or not but quarantining travelers and suspending flights seems like a great start.

​Canada to quarantine travelers, suspend flights south​_*including making it mandatory for travelers to quarantine in a hotel at their own expense when they arrive in Canada and suspending airline service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations

*“Travelers will then have to wait for up to three days at an approved hotel for their test results, at their own expense, which is expected to be more than $2,000,” Trudeau said._








						Canada to quarantine travelers, suspend flights south
					

TORONTO (AP) — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Friday announced stricter restrictions on travelers in response to new, likely more contagious variants of the novel coronavirus — including making it mandatory for travelers to quarantine in a hotel at their own expense when they arrive in Canada...




					apnews.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not sure if this Covid thing will be a big deal or not but quarantining travelers and suspending flights seems like a great start.
> 
> ​Canada to quarantine travelers, suspend flights south​_*including making it mandatory for travelers to quarantine in a hotel at their own expense when they arrive in Canada and suspending airline service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations
> 
> *“Travelers will then have to wait for up to three days at an approved hotel for their test results, at their own expense, which is expected to be more than $2,000,” Trudeau said._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada to quarantine travelers, suspend flights south
> 
> 
> TORONTO (AP) — Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Friday announced stricter restrictions on travelers in response to new, likely more contagious variants of the novel coronavirus — including making it mandatory for travelers to quarantine in a hotel at their own expense when they arrive in Canada...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


What they should have done from the very beginning.


----------



## CBH99

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What they should have done from the very beginning.


It's just ironic that despite 'closing borders' - they've actually been pretty open.  And flights from all over the world have been landing here daily, with absolutely zero oversight on whether or not people were quarantining or not.

Now, a year or so later, they decide to actually cancel flights & enforce mandatory quarantining.  You know, the things they should have done when they announced the 'closed border' - which was BS for the most part.

I also find it ironic that government controls are clamping down now that the virus is so widespread it's basically just accepted that it's with us for good now, to various degrees, and is something we'll just have to learn to live with & adapt to -- they clamp down now that there is a vaccine being distributed.


Like Humphrey said, and many others - this would have made a lot more sense at the beginning, rather than now near the end.  _shrug_


----------



## CBH99

Sorry, rant time...

So let me get this straight...

If someone returns from a trip & presents a negative Covid test upon arrival, they still have to stay at a hotel at their expense for 14 days.

But if a politician does the same, especially during a critical period in which the vaccines are arriving & being distributed to the provinces - they either get fired or asked to resign.  If fired, they get a severance package which most of us could only dream of -- so their 'punishment' is a wad of money??


Must be nice to be in a different club than the rest of us.  Discourage travel, only punish those that get exposed to the public, and then clamp down once all the politicians have taken their winter vacations.  Great job GoC...


----------



## Jarnhamar

I wonder if this has been ready to launch for weeks or months but the government was just waiting for, you know, a convenient time.


----------



## PMedMoe

CBH99 said:


> If someone returns from a trip & presents a negative Covid test upon arrival, they still have to stay at a hotel at their expense for 14 days.



Actually, they have to wait three days at a hotel (at their expense) for test results.  If negative, then they have to go home and isolate for a further 11 days.  If they test positive they will be immediately required to quarantine in designated government facilities to make sure they’re not carrying variants of particular concern.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

CBH99 said:


> It's just ironic that despite 'closing borders' - they've actually been pretty open.  And flights from all over the world have been landing here daily, with absolutely zero oversight on whether or not people were quarantining or not.


Here is a snapshot of the aircraft flying over eastern US and southern Ontario (as of a few minutes ago) cutesy of ADS-B Exchange.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Retired AF Guy said:


> Here is a snapshot of the aircraft flying over eastern US and southern Ontario (as of a few minutes ago) cutesy of ADS-B Exchange.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

CBH99 said:


> It's just ironic that despite 'closing borders' - they've actually been pretty open.  And flights from all over the world have been landing here daily, with absolutely zero oversight on whether or not people were quarantining or not.
> 
> Now, a year or so later, they decide to actually cancel flights & enforce mandatory quarantining.  You know, the things they should have done when they announced the 'closed border' - which was BS for the most part.
> 
> I also find it ironic that government controls are clamping down now that the virus is so widespread it's basically just accepted that it's with us for good now, to various degrees, and is something we'll just have to learn to live with & adapt to -- they clamp down now that there is a vaccine being distributed.
> 
> 
> Like Humphrey said, and many others - this would have made a lot more sense at the beginning, rather than now near the end.  _shrug_


This is a political move to placate all the people who were angry at the wealthy who traveled over Christmas.  

Commercial airline pilots, truckers, etc have been traveling the entire pandemic without any requirement to even test.


----------



## lenaitch

Well, I doubt the 'UK Variant' that has killed 49 at Roberta Place in Barrie ON came in the mail.


----------



## PMedMoe

lenaitch said:


> Well, I doubt the 'UK Variant' that has killed 49 at Roberta Place in Barrie ON came in the mail.


Maybe it came from Dr. Martina Weir. Or her husband.  Wait, she didn't work in Barrie.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> Maybe it came from Dr. Martina Weir. Or her husband.  Wait, she didn't work in Barrie.


Not to comment on the charges, but her husband does not work with the public.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> Not to comment on the charges, but her husband does not work with the public.


No, so he only potentially infected his fellow schedulers, who in turn, potentially infected their families.....and so on.

And since he has been charged, is there an employer code of ethics that will deal with him, if convicted?


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> No, so he only potentially infected his fellow schedulers, who in turn, potentially infected their families.....and so on.
> 
> And since he has been charged, is there an employer code of ethics that will deal with him, if convicted?


Yes, and that is why he was charged.

Like I said, "Not to comment on the charges". Just wanted to mention, in case anyone missed that part, he does not work with the public.

I don't know how discipline works in Administration. I was in Operations.

Remembering SARS, it wasn't Administration or Operations that they were most concerned with. What they really - really - worried about was Communications. People in Operations were not permitted anywhere near the place.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> *Yes, and that is why he was charged.*
> 
> Like I said, "Not to comment on the charges". Just wanted to mention, in case anyone missed that part, he does not work with the public.
> 
> I don't know how discipline works in Administration. I was in Operations.
> 
> Remembering SARS, it wasn't Administration or Operations that they were most concerned with. What they really - really - worried about was Communications. People in Operations were not permitted anywhere near the place.


I could be wrong, but do not believe that the charges were preferred by the Paramedic Services. They were laid because (allegedly) he and his wife were caught out in a random covid-19 test that specifically showed they had been exposed to the UK variant, and misled the authorities when questioned about that. If convicted, there should be further ramifications, not from provincial/judicial authorities, but from his employer.

Primum non nocere.


----------



## PMedMoe

I don't know what a scheduler does, but I found an example of a job posting for a call taker at Toronto Paramedic Servcies.  (Is that like a dispatcher??)

At any rate, here is one of the requirements of the job:

"Experience and/or education required in public safety, health related fields, including but not limited to EMS, Police, and Fire Communications, Paramedicine, Nursing, Air Traffic Control, Telecommunications and Health Sciences."

So, I don't really care if he worked with the public or not, he *and* his wife both should have known better than to lie about their contacts.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> I don't know what a scheduler does,


Wasn't much  when I was there. Nothing ever changed ( schedule, station, partner ). Nobody got transferred, unless you really screwed up.

But, since I retired,


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/paramedic-scheduling-software-controversy-1.4238742
		


Whatever they do, TPS ( paramedic, not police ) schedulers are well represented on the Sunshine list.





> "but I found an example of a job posting for a call taker at Toronto Paramedic Servcies.  (Is that like a dispatcher??)"




A Call Receiver ( Taker ) answers the phone.  Emergency Medical Dispatchers dispatch the paramedics.



> "So, I don't really care if he worked with the public or not, he *and* his wife both should have known better than to lie about their contacts."
Click to expand...




> "Both said in statements issued through their respective lawyers that they are not guilty, intend to plead not guilty and will *"vigorously defend" themselves against the charges*."



Just have to wait for the verdict.


----------



## Kilted

CBH99 said:


> Like Humphrey said, and many others - this would have made a lot more sense at the beginning, rather than now near the end.  _shrug_


I don't think that we are anywhere near the end of this, maybe halfway through, but I think that we still have a lot ahead of us. The goal to vaccine everyone who wants it by September is facing a lot of set backs.  The key there is everyone who wants it. We may have a significant portion of the population who refuses to get it, preventing herd immunity. Either way, I think that we still have a year before this goes away in any significant way. While no one is taking about it, the possibility of a third wave and third set of lockdowns in a few months is very real.


----------



## CBH99

PMedMoe said:


> Actually, they have to wait three days at a hotel (at their expense) for test results.  If negative, then they have to go home and isolate for a further 11 days.  If they test positive they will be immediately required to quarantine in designated government facilities to make sure they’re not carrying variants of particular concern.


Oh okay, that makes more sense to me.


----------



## CBH99

Kilted said:


> I don't think that we are anywhere near the end of this, maybe halfway through, but I think that we still have a lot ahead of us. The goal to vaccine everyone who wants it by September is facing a lot of set backs.  The key there is everyone who wants it. We may have a significant portion of the population who refuses to get it, preventing herd immunity. Either way, I think that we still have a year before this goes away in any significant way. While no one is taking about it, the possibility of a third wave and third set of lockdowns in a few months is very real.


I was just having this conversation a few hours ago, I'm glad you brought this up.  I don't know if a lot of small businesses could afford a 3rd lockdown - a lot of small businesses here in Alberta didn't survive the 2nd lockdown.  While I don't claim to know the solution, I feel more & more strongly than lockdowns aren't it.

The lockdowns here also made no sense.  They kept malls & large retail open, yet forced hair salons to close.  West Edmonton Mall over the holidays was more packed than any overcapacity nightclub one could imagine...the stores may have had reduced foot traffic, but the common areas of the mall were PACKED.  Yet - like I said, many small businesses were forced to close.

The lockdown was supposed to cease on January 12, but extended until the 21st.  Then, out of the blue, they randomly announced that some small business types could open before the 21st, but not all.  All in all... our lockdowns haven't made a ton of sense from a practical perspective.

Our number one source of outbreaks has been LTCs.  Yet, folks living in LTCs can still have as many visitors as they want - as long as it's only one or two at a time   


I hope there isn't a 3rd lockdown, I really do.  I'm hoping with vaccinations being rolled out to seniors & front line workers, and eventually trickling down to the general population - along with the huge economic & mental health issues they've created, they don't make this same mistake again.  

(A lot of folks I know were excited to start working again, then got laid off again...and now are having trouble accessing their CRB payments as each period becomes a bit tougher to access.  No money, a family to support, a mortgage to pay, etc etc - the mental health issues aren't just for silly things, some people I actually know are RELYING on food bank donations & generosity to feed their kids.)


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> I was just having this conversation a few hours ago, I'm glad you brought this up.  I don't know if a lot of small businesses could afford a 3rd lockdown - a lot of small businesses here in Alberta didn't survive the 2nd lockdown.  While I don't claim to know the solution, I feel more & more strongly than lockdowns aren't it.
> 
> The lockdowns here also made no sense.  They kept malls & large retail open, yet forced hair salons to close.  West Edmonton Mall over the holidays was more packed than any overcapacity nightclub one could imagine...the stores may have had reduced foot traffic, but the common areas of the mall were PACKED.  Yet - like I said, many small businesses were forced to close.
> 
> The lockdown was supposed to cease on January 12, but extended until the 21st.  Then, out of the blue, they randomly announced that some small business types could open before the 21st, but not all.  All in all... our lockdowns haven't made a ton of sense from a practical perspective.
> 
> Our number one source of outbreaks has been LTCs.  Yet, folks living in LTCs can still have as many visitors as they want - as long as it's only one or two at a time
> 
> 
> I hope there isn't a 3rd lockdown, I really do.  I'm hoping with vaccinations being rolled out to seniors & front line workers, and eventually trickling down to the general population - along with the huge economic & mental health issues they've created, they don't make this same mistake again.
> 
> (A lot of folks I know were excited to start working again, then got laid off again...and now are having trouble accessing their CRB payments as each period becomes a bit tougher to access.  No money, a family to support, a mortgage to pay, etc etc - the mental health issues aren't just for silly things, some people I actually know are RELYING on food bank donations & generosity to feed their kids.)



Israel is in it's third lockdown but, paradoxically, is doing the best at inoculating everyone:


As of January 19, 2021, 25.6% of the Israeli population have received their first vaccine dose, and 550,000 people have received both doses.

To give some perspective, Israel is vaccinating residents at a rate of 32.4 people per 100, compared with 4.8 people per 100 in the U.S., and 7 per 100 in the United Kingdom.









						Why have the COVID-19 vaccinations in Israel made the headlines?
					

In this Special Feature, we look at why the COVID-19 vaccine rollout has been so successful in Israel and what the country’s data have revealed.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Israel is in it's third lockdown but, paradoxically, is doing the best at inoculating everyone:
> 
> 
> As of January 19, 2021, 25.6% of the Israeli population have received their first vaccine dose, and 550,000 people have received both doses.
> 
> To give some perspective, Israel is vaccinating residents at a rate of 32.4 people per 100, compared with 4.8 people per 100 in the U.S., and 7 per 100 in the United Kingdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why have the COVID-19 vaccinations in Israel made the headlines?
> 
> 
> In this Special Feature, we look at why the COVID-19 vaccine rollout has been so successful in Israel and what the country’s data have revealed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medicalnewstoday.com


Wow!

I know geography obviously is a key difference between them and us, as our geography definitely can present challenges for these kinds of things.  Especially at this time of year too.

But bravo to them -- organized, thought ahead, and on top of it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

daftandbarmy said:


>


I have questions about the balloons over Kenya?


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Kilted said:


> I don't think that we are anywhere near the end of this, maybe halfway through, but I think that we still have a lot ahead of us. The goal to vaccine everyone who wants it by September is facing a lot of set backs.  The key there is everyone who wants it. We may have a significant portion of the population who refuses to get it, preventing herd immunity. Either way, I think that we still have a year before this goes away in any significant way. While no one is taking about it, the possibility of a third wave and third set of lockdowns in a few months is very real.



It's so hard to say. What you say makes sense, but then when I hear all the talk about a potential election in the spring, makes me think that someone has models/projections showing that this will be over by then so that a New Zealand style historical electoral victory can be awarded to the man who guided us out of the pandemic.


----------



## dapaterson

You want to call and run an election when success is just beyond the horizon so you can describe it as you want it to be... waiting for it to happen might mean things go differently and you could be held to account...


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> You want to call and run an election when success is just beyond the horizon so you can describe it as you want it to be... waiting for it to happen might mean things go differently and you could be held to account...


Yuuuupppp


----------



## ballz

LittleBlackDevil said:


> It's so hard to say. What you say makes sense, but then when I hear *all the talk about a potential election in the spring*, makes me think that someone has models/projections showing that this will be over by then so that a New Zealand style historical electoral victory can be awarded to the man who guided us out of the pandemic.



I have no doubt that when vaccine supply looked pretty good and, anticipating that we'd be in full-on vaccine roll-out this spring, the Liberals were planning a spring election while the going was good. I'll bet they're reconsidering that now....


----------



## dapaterson

ballz said:


> I have no doubt that when vaccine supply looked pretty good and, anticipating that we'd be in full-on vaccine roll-out this spring, the Liberals were planning a spring election while the going was good. I'll bet they're reconsidering that now....


They are weighing whether they anticipate things getting better or worse, and deciding when that will happen to inform their decision... same as any other party would do in the same situation.


----------



## Kilted

dapaterson said:


> They are weighing whether they anticipate things getting better or worse, and deciding when that will happen to inform their decision... same as any other party would do in the same situation.


I think that the riot at the Capitol Building was the best thing that has happened for the Liberal Party in a long time.  An election in the short term will help them try and paint the CPC, or at least enough of their supporters with the same brush as those who stormed the Capitol Building.


----------



## PMedMoe

Isn't there a thread on politics and COVID??    Just asking...


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> Isn't there a thread on politics and COVID??    Just asking...


CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:


> CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.


Ummm, yeah, I actually knew that...


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> Ummm, yeah, I actually knew that...


I know YOU do.


----------



## daftandbarmy

It's OK, we can still be holier than thou with the US regarding the 'gun thing', right?


----------



## PuckChaser

Remember when people said we shouldn't panic when we were 7th in the world a few weeks ago? Pepperidge Farm remembers.


----------



## cavalryman

But we had an astronaut as GG. That should make up for it. What? Too soon?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Whoops....



Vaccine Vexation: Confidence in Trudeau government’s procurement, distribution of COVID-19 vaccine plummets​ 
_Number of Canadians saying Liberals doing a “poor job” procuring vaccine near doubles since December_​
*January 29, 2021 – *Is now the winter of our vaccine distribution discontent? As questions and criticism over the federal government’s decisions and handling of its COVID-19 vaccine rollout intensify, new data from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute find faltering confidence and souring moods.

Indeed, while just six weeks ago a firm majority of Canadians (58%) said they were confident in the federal government’s ability to circulate the vaccine throughout the country, just 45 per cent hold this view now.

Amid shipment delays and increasing concerns about future supplies of Health Canada-approved vaccines, anxiety is rising over the country’s ability to meet national vaccination targets. Just 36 per cent of Canadians now say they feel the federal government has done a “good job” in securing sufficient doses for the population, down 11 points from December, while the number saying “poor job” has nearly doubled.


Much of the responsibility for vaccination also falls on provincial governments, who are delegated to prioritize access and organize delivery. Just 51 per cent of Canadians are confident in their respective provincial government to effectively do so, with proportions dropping below a majority in Alberta (35%), Manitoba (39%), and Ontario (44%).


*More Key Findings:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*​

Canadians who say they intend to be vaccinated are near unanimous about the importance of inoculation in terms of ending pandemic life. Just over half see it as the only way back to normal, while the rest (40%) say it is important, but not a magic bullet.


Just over one-in-three Canadians (36%) say that the recently announced delay in Pfizer vaccine delivery is a major setback. Half (48%) view it as a minor setback to be overcome.


Those who see the Pfizer delay as a major setback appear to place some of the blame on the Trudeau government: three-quarters of them (73%) say the federal government has done a poor job of securing doses.









						Vaccine Vexation: Confidence in Trudeau government’s procurement, distribution of COVID-19 vaccine plummets - Angus Reid Institute
					

Number of Canadians saying Liberals doing a “poor job” procuring vaccine near doubles since December January 29, 2021 – Is now the winter of our vaccine distribution discontent? As questions




					angusreid.org


----------



## HiTechComms

Well the best things you can do in this current Pandemic.. Believing the government will save you with a vaccine is laughable idea to me.. Isn't there an idiom in the military that goes something like: "Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder” Not sure I want to inject something into my body made by the lowest bidder.

Don't be Obesse
Exercise
Make sure you take Vitamin D
Wash your hands

if Old or sickly don't interact with people that are sick.

I think to my self it would just be easier just to get this cold and get it over it. My spouse believes she already had it when she was in China in October 2019 and when she got back she had a minor sniffles. I probably contracted it from my spouse but I haven't been sick  in the last 6 years.


----------



## Quirky

HiTechComms said:


> Don't be Obesse
> Exercise



RIP RCAF.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Canadians are unfortunately finally getting a reality check in International Relations 101:  

There are no rules and it's everyone for themselves.  Maybe we will finally see our population take it's national security a little more seriously?


----------



## PuckChaser

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Canadians are unfortunately finally getting a reality check in International Relations 101:
> 
> There are no rules and it's everyone for themselves.  Maybe we will finally see our population take it's national security a little more seriously?


There's probably quite a few companies rethinking the cheap labour they get from China as well... great business model until a global pandemic shuts the shipping lanes down to a crawl.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PuckChaser said:


> There's probably quite a few companies rethinking the cheap labour they get from China as well... great business model until a global pandemic shuts the shipping lanes down to a crawl.


I tend to think the opposite.  I think "work from home" is going to exacerbate outsourcing because without the need for physical offices, companies are now wondering "why would we pay you XX amount to sit at home when we can pay someone in India, SE Asia 1/10th the amount for the same thing."


----------



## HiTechComms

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I tend to think the opposite.  I think "work from home" is going to exacerbate outsourcing because without the need for physical offices, companies are now wondering "why would we pay you XX amount to sit at home when we can pay someone in India, SE Asia 1/10th the amount for the same thing."


You have never dealt with outsourcing have you? 
Trust me when I tell you it is rarely as simple as that.
What will most likely happen is the collapse of commercial real estate. Calgary had a vacancy rate of 30% before the pandemic, downtown edmonton is dead. Heck lots of high rises are dead.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> You have never dealt with outsourcing have you?
> Trust me when I tell you it is rarely as simple as that.
> What will most likely happen is the collapse of commercial real estate. Calgary had a vacancy rate of 30% before the pandemic, downtown edmonton is dead. Heck lots of high rises are dead.



There are alot of very senior people who have figured out they can get 100% of the work done with 50% of the people. And no office space.  About half the workforce in many sectors, especially corporate and public services, is basically AWOL, apparently.

We should be seeing some big cuts in the future regarding the workforce and workspaces if, for no other reason, than the need to pay for the massive debts incurred during COVID. Also, the private sector hasn't ignored the fact that the public service remained fully employed (and paid) while they have suffered deeply, and the calls for redressing the balance will likely increase as the vaccination programs advance.

Alberta? As with previous periods of decline,  their economic collapse has more to do with their continued reliance on a single source of revenue, oil, than COVID.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Nice, if you don't want to get vaccinated that's fine, but don't stop others https://futurism.com/neoscope/antivaxx-mob-covid-vaccine-distribution-site


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> There are alot of very senior people who have figured out they can get 100% of the work done with 50% of the people. And no office space.  About half the workforce in many sectors, especially corporate and public services, is basically AWOL, apparently.
> 
> We should be seeing some big cuts in the future regarding the workforce and workspaces if, for no other reason, than the need to pay for the massive debts incurred during COVID. Also, the private sector hasn't ignored the fact that the public service remained fully employed (and paid) while they have suffered deeply, and the calls for redressing the balance will likely increase as the vaccination programs advance.
> 
> Alberta? As with previous periods of decline,  their economic collapse has more to do with their continued reliance on a single source of revenue, oil, than COVID.


As an Albertan, I would both agree and disagree.

I agree with you 100% that our government has continued to rely on a single source of revenue - and a source that has plummeted in value at that.  This huge mistake of relying on a single resource has been compounded by the federal government, and the lack of progress on a variety of infrastructure projects that were critical to getting the industry going again.  (Mainly, pipelines.)

It has been solid financial advice for ages now, for folks not to rely on only a single source of income.  Yet, our government seems to do just that.      I'm not sure if I should angry or sad, but I do feel a bit of both.



Their handling of the Covid crisis has been piss poor, and devoid of any common sense.  This has been the bricks tied around the ankles of an economy that was already sinking.

They have, and CONTINUE, to make decisions that make absolutely no sense.  They are very much focused on "appearing to do something" rather than actually doing anything helpful - knowing that sheep will gobble it all up without many questions.

-  For example, West Edmonton Mall - and all retail - has been open for ages.  When I went to WEM over the Christmas holidays (just once) it was busier than any restaurant or nightclub could be.  On average, it had about 30,000 people in the mall.  (I'm not kidding, it was shoulder to shoulder in almost all of the common areas.)   

-  Restaurants are also open, with masks not being required if sitting.  (Because, you know...Covid isn't very contagious if one is in the sitting position.)

-  However, gyms are still closed.    Fitness centers did NOT contribute to any outbreaks, and yet they are still not able to open.  (Yes, I am very frustrated with this particular matter.)

-  A vast majority of our cases have been in LTCs, and yet residents of LTCs can still have as many visitors as they want every day - as long as it is only one or two at a time, and they DO NOT have to present negative Covid tests prior to entering.  

-  Another major contributor to our Covid numbers have been outbreaks on Native reserves, where it is almost impossible to enforce any sort of provincial guidelines.



The distrubution of our vaccines has been piss poor, despite the objective being beyond simple.  

-  Our primary goal was to vaccinate seniors in LTCs.  We had more than enough to do this, yet we did not dispatch any teams of nurses or medical professionals to the LTCs to accomplish our primary goal.  

^ This was an unbelievably simple task.  Dispatch teams of nurses to the LTCs, and have them residents vaccinated.  This could have been done within days of us receiving our vaccines.  Yet more than a month later, this has only been accomplished in an ad-hoc and disorganized manner.

-  Our secondary goal was to vaccinated front line workers.  Some of them received the first dose, while the seniors still hasn't been attended to.  (Despite our first round of vaccinations supposedly destined for them.)



So yes, our economy is dying fast due to relying purely on a single industry that we are having difficulty in getting again.  However, the absolute sheer stupidity of our leaders is compounding that issue on a near daily basis.  (I don't have any preference for any particular political party - my only requirement for supporting or non-supporting is that they make intelligent decisions & behave morally.  Both of which I find extremely lacking.)

0.02


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> As an Albertan, I would both agree and disagree.
> 
> I agree with you 100% that our government has continued to rely on a single source of revenue - and a source that has plummeted in value at that.  This huge mistake of relying on a single resource has been compounded by the federal government, and the lack of progress on a variety of infrastructure projects that were critical to getting the industry going again.  (Mainly, pipelines.)
> 
> It has been solid financial advice for ages now, for folks not to rely on only a single source of income.  Yet, our government seems to do just that.      I'm not sure if I should angry or sad, but I do feel a bit of both.
> 
> 
> 
> Their handling of the Covid crisis has been piss poor, and devoid of any common sense.  This has been the bricks tied around the ankles of an economy that was already sinking.
> 
> They have, and CONTINUE, to make decisions that make absolutely no sense.  They are very much focused on "appearing to do something" rather than actually doing anything helpful - knowing that sheep will gobble it all up without many questions.
> 
> -  For example, West Edmonton Mall - and all retail - has been open for ages.  When I went to WEM over the Christmas holidays (just once) it was busier than any restaurant or nightclub could be.  On average, it had about 30,000 people in the mall.  (I'm not kidding, it was shoulder to shoulder in almost all of the common areas.)
> 
> -  Restaurants are also open, with masks not being required if sitting.  (Because, you know...Covid isn't very contagious if one is in the sitting position.)
> 
> -  However, gyms are still closed.    Fitness centers did NOT contribute to any outbreaks, and yet they are still not able to open.  (Yes, I am very frustrated with this particular matter.)
> 
> -  A vast majority of our cases have been in LTCs, and yet residents of LTCs can still have as many visitors as they want every day - as long as it is only one or two at a time, and they DO NOT have to present negative Covid tests prior to entering.
> 
> -  Another major contributor to our Covid numbers have been outbreaks on Native reserves, where it is almost impossible to enforce any sort of provincial guidelines.
> 
> 
> 
> The distrubution of our vaccines has been piss poor, despite the objective being beyond simple.
> 
> -  Our primary goal was to vaccinate seniors in LTCs.  We had more than enough to do this, yet we did not dispatch any teams of nurses or medical professionals to the LTCs to accomplish our primary goal.
> 
> ^ This was an unbelievably simple task.  Dispatch teams of nurses to the LTCs, and have them residents vaccinated.  This could have been done within days of us receiving our vaccines.  Yet more than a month later, this has only been accomplished in an ad-hoc and disorganized manner.
> 
> -  Our secondary goal was to vaccinated front line workers.  Some of them received the first dose, while the seniors still hasn't been attended to.  (Despite our first round of vaccinations supposedly destined for them.)
> 
> 
> 
> So yes, our economy is dying fast due to relying purely on a single industry that we are having difficulty in getting again.  However, the absolute sheer stupidity of our leaders is compounding that issue on a near daily basis.  (I don't have any preference for any particular political party - my only requirement for supporting or non-supporting is that they make intelligent decisions & behave morally.  Both of which I find extremely lacking.)
> 
> 0.02



It's OK. Alberta has the Heritage Fund, but still no PST because 'Yeeee Hawwww'  









						Heritage Savings Trust Fund
					

Find information about Alberta’s main long-term savings fund, which produces income to support government programs essential to Albertans.




					www.alberta.ca


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> There are alot of very senior people who have figured out they can get 100% of the work done with 50% of the people. And no office space.  About half the workforce in many sectors, especially corporate and public services, is basically AWOL, apparently.
> 
> We should be seeing some big cuts in the future regarding the workforce and workspaces if, for no other reason, than the need to pay for the massive debts incurred during COVID. Also, the private sector hasn't ignored the fact that the public service remained fully employed (and paid) while they have suffered deeply, and the calls for redressing the balance will likely increase as the vaccination programs advance.
> 
> Alberta? As with previous periods of decline,  their economic collapse has more to do with their continued reliance on a single source of revenue, oil, than COVID.


Prices law always applies but it never applies to the Public sector. The problem is that public sector jobs will never be cut, once you give bureaucracy power it never hands it back. In addition what will the government do with all the Bachelor of Arts in Fluffology coming out of our Universities with mountains of debt. Public sector of course.

As for Alberta reliance on oil is in part true but Alberta had gone and at least tried to diversify. It had good manufacturing and lots of high tech developed and unfortunately those have also been gutted. At least Alberta still has sustainability and the bright side Alberta at least will no longer subsidize the eastern Canada in the long run. In contrast the Atlantic provinces never even tried to get away from their primary resource industry and most of those provinces will be insolvent in the next ten years. I also don't live in Alberta.

If our commercial real estate collapses Banks will be in trouble and this is why one of the biggest bailouts that no one knows about is the Liberal bailout for commercial rent. People fundementally don't understand commercial realestate either. If Commercial collapses all us stupid tax payers will hold a giant bad of dog crap.

_shurg_ Doesn't matter to me. I have no cosumer debt, and mortgage is tiny. I can also work any where in the world due to my skillset. Not to mention I have dual citizenship.


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK. Alberta has the Heritage Fund, but still no PST because 'Yeeee Hawwww'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heritage Savings Trust Fund
> 
> 
> Find information about Alberta’s main long-term savings fund, which produces income to support government programs essential to Albertans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.alberta.ca


Why is the default solution to Budget shortfalls amongst Canadians always "MOAR TAXES" but never downsizing of the government/public payroll? 
Lastly why is it that individuals that predominantly associated with Public sector in some way always want more taxes?


----------



## dapaterson

Alberta is a modern day Nova Scotia, blessed with natural resources that could have generated long term prosperity that instead were used for short term consumption.


----------



## dapaterson

Doctors are increasingly concerned about the rise and spread of the UK B117 variant of COVID-19, which spreads significantly more easily than the baseline version.  See:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357566949404905472


----------



## Weinie

And the pile-on continues.


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...d-in-poor-countries/ar-BB1dqoOE?ocid=msedgdhp


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

dapaterson said:


> Doctors are increasingly concerned about the rise and spread of the UK B117 variant of COVID-19, which spreads significantly more easily than the baseline version.  See:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357566949404905472


As some people have been saying the entire time, it's a marathon not a sprint.

Support for lockdowns is also dwindling.  Better pile on the vaccine game now.   Maybe we need our own version of Op WARP SPEED in this Country.


----------



## Weinie

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As some people have been saying the entire time, it's a marathon not a sprint.
> 
> Support for lockdowns is also dwindling.  Better pile on the vaccine game now.   *Maybe we need our own version of Op WARP SPEED in this Country.*


Or a time machine.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Weinie said:


> Or a time machine


US is on track to vaccinate 75% of their population by the late fall.  I anticipate that number will continue to decline as well.

We are on track to have 75% of our population vaccinated in 10 years.  The continental Europeans are doing no better.

I'm thinking back to last summer when everyone in Canada and Europe was looking at them and saying "look at those stupid Americans".  

I am reminded of this great scene from Band of Brothers:


----------



## HiTechComms

dapaterson said:


> Alberta is a modern day Nova Scotia, blessed with natural resources that could have generated long term prosperity that instead were used for short term consumption.


My Economics professor explanation.
"You know why everyone is a socialist because only capitalists think long term and in the long term you are dead."

Want to blame any one blame politicians and their short sighted use of your tax money to bribe the voter. In fact blame the people who voted them in because those Jack asses are really the responsible party. 

Politicians only Job is to get elected again.


----------



## HiTechComms

dapaterson said:


> Doctors are increasingly concerned about the rise and spread of the UK B117 variant of COVID-19, which spreads significantly more easily than the baseline version.  See:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1357566949404905472



/Sarcasm On
What I truly find humorous with all this pearl clutching about pandemic on a forum populated by either those that want to be in the military or were in the military. You do realize that the system has gotten thousands of your people killed in their prime for a supposed "just cause" but those 80+ year olds are such sacred seniors cannot be threatened at the expense of the entire country's future.  Avrage LTC care for most individuals is 3 years, and we are 1 year into the pandemic 2 more years can we just shut down LTC ? Taps forehead No LTC covid deaths when no LTC places exist.

Next time the government tries to deploy the military will there be an outrage because "some may die" to virtue Canadian values in a place insert "3rd world country"

Oh no the sniffles we must stop any one getting the sniffles.

Fun fact from 2004 Medical Errors


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/medical-errors-killing-up-to-24-000-canadians-a-year-1.514758
		









						Thousands die from medical errors yearly, notes advocacy group
					

In Canada, medical errors account for 28,000 deaths yearly, according to the Canadian Patient Safety Institute which campaigns to reduce that number. Errors are said to be the third leading cause of death in Canada after cancer and heart disease, and every minute and 18 seconds someone is injured fr




					www.rcinet.ca
				



vs








						How Canada's COVID-19 death toll stacks up to history
					

COVID-19 was most likely the third-leading cause of death in Canada in 2020, behind cancer and heart disease.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Look at the bright side, with those empty hospitals look how many lives we are saving from Medical incompetence.

Oddly enough








						Why ARE coronavirus cases falling in the US with 44% drop in 3 weeks?
					

On Wednesday, a total of 110,679 new coronavirus cases were reported with a 7-day rolling average of 135,904, a 44% decline from the average three weeks earlier.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				











						WHO Information Notice for Users 2020/05
					

Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use polymerase chain reaction (PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 13 January 2021                                                                       WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 2 Target audience: laboratory professionals and...




					www.who.int
				




/Sarcasm Off

My observation about Covid.. Just like about everything "Made in China" its not very good quality  lol.

Oh and the new Labour Force Survey..





						The Daily — Labour Force Survey, January 2021
					

Employment fell by 213,000 (-1.2%) in January. Losses were entirely in part-time work and were concentrated in the Quebec and Ontario retail trade sectors.




					www150.statcan.gc.ca
				




Wonder how much more money will the government help itself to from my paycheck.


----------



## mariomike

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm thinking back to last summer when everyone in Canada and Europe was looking at them and saying "look at those stupid Americans".


Not everyone was saying that. I don't think Americans are stupid. I married one.

But, looking at the fatality rate in the US ( 459,000 ), my wife and I are happy to be on this side of the border.


----------



## PuckChaser

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I tend to think the opposite.  I think "work from home" is going to exacerbate outsourcing because without the need for physical offices, companies are now wondering "why would we pay you XX amount to sit at home when we can pay someone in India, SE Asia 1/10th the amount for the same thing."


I think that may be the difference between white collar and blue collar work. The white collar work will become easier to outsource off-shore because the product is transmitted via the internet (unless China turns it off...). That blue collar work creating physical objects could move closer to our shores because the risk of disruption is lowered significantly. I recently just saw a company lose a 6 figure DND procurement because they bid materials made in China, and had an extremely small window to get the items to Canada and installed before 31 March deadline. The company pulled their bid instead of risking blowing the timeline and being fined a significant amount for breach of contract.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Whiners. Let's just give them some LAVs to shut them up.


HiTechComms said:


> the system has gotten thousands of your people killed in their prime for a supposed "just cause"


Which "just cause" are you referring to here?


----------



## HiTechComms

Jarnhamar said:


> Whiners. Let's just give them some LAVs to shut them up.
> 
> Which "just cause" are you referring to here?


Reason its in quotes and in between /Sarcasm. It is completely subjective.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> Wonder how much more money will the government help itself to from my paycheck.



If it's the Alberta government, not enough to guarantee a steady source of revenue to ensure that essential public services (like health care) continue to operate at sustainable levels to serve a rapidly aging, widely dispersed population with very, very high expectations of the quality of service they receive from the public sector. Ironically.

Full disclosure: I know a few people in the health care sector in Alberta. Just channelling some of their observations here


----------



## lenaitch

daftandbarmy said:


> If it's the Alberta government, not enough to guarantee a steady source of revenue to ensure that essential public services (like health care) continue to operate at sustainable levels to serve a rapidly aging, widely dispersed population with very, very high expectations of the quality of service they receive from the public sector. Ironically.
> 
> Full disclosure: I know a few people in the health care sector in Alberta. Just channelling some of their observations here



A friend of our daughter is posted to Cold Lake and he says that some municipalities in the surrounding area have been ignoring provincial orders and it's been pretty much business as usual.


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> If it's the Alberta government, not enough to guarantee a steady source of revenue to ensure that essential public services (like health care) continue to operate at sustainable levels to serve a rapidly aging, widely dispersed population with very, very high expectations of the quality of service they receive from the public sector. Ironically.
> 
> Full disclosure: I know a few people in the health care sector in Alberta. Just channelling some of their observations here


"Essential" services are completely subjective.  Its funny how its always the government or public sector workers get to determine whats essentials and those that work in the private sector never get a say. Your anecdotal evidence is also just that. My observation from my job and having to work with public sector I would estimate 60% of those people could be cut and no one would know the difference. How many public vs private institutions does the average citizen interact on a daily basis and more so in the pandemic.

Always with the "revenue" how about stop spending money you don't have. Never any cuts to be found in the eyes of the "Public Servant"

Any one that depends on paying their rent and providing shelter and food for families is essential. 

Politicians are they essential?
I would even dare to say that Military is really not essential to Canada, since we have the Americans to protect us. It would probably be more cost effective to just pay USA for protection.

The public sector echo chamber of "I am essential" is just self justification as I have observed in Public sector workers and I am channeling my observations here.

There is always some one that is smarter, cheaper, younger that can do a better job and with Technology we can simply automate a lot of public sector positions out of existence just like we are doing in the private sector.

In Joe Biden's own words.. "Learn to Code"


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> I would even dare to say that *Military is really not essential to Canada*, since we have the Americans to protect us.


Americans might get tired of us calling them for help with forest fires, snow storms, floods, scaring off illegal fishing boats, taking care of LTC facilities, supporting First Nation reserves up north, supporting the police and so on.

Come to think of it they don't have a great track record of leaving once they come to your country to "help". But yea no one will probably invade us either way.


----------



## brihard

Might be worth a mod splitting some of this off? We're now well outside of the subject of COVID, and I believe essentially this same split already happened a couple weeks ago. There should be a suitable public/private sector economics thread that this train can derail into.


----------



## PMedMoe

brihard said:


> Might be worth a mod splitting some of this off? We're now well outside of the subject of COVID, and I believe essentially this same split already happened a couple weeks ago. There should be a suitable public/private sector economics thread that this train can derail into.





PMedMoe said:


> Isn't there a thread on politics and COVID??    Just asking...


Yeah, apparently no one got my subtlety...


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, apparently no one got my subtlety...


We'll try, again, Moe. ​​CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> We'll try, again, Moe. ​​CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.




“The true genius of a woman is her subtle flair in creating the illusion that you are the smart one”


----------



## Good2Golf

HiTechComms said:


> There is always some one that is smarter, cheaper, younger that can do a better job and with Technology we can simply automate a lot of public sector positions out of existence just like we are doing in the private sector.
> 
> In Joe Biden's own words.. "Learn to Code"


Code monkeys aren’t immune from being replaced in part given the significant improvements in automated code generation happening with increasing application of AI and ML in the discipline.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

HiTechComms said:


> I would even dare to say that Military is really not essential to Canada, since we have the Americans to protect us. It would probably be more cost effective to just pay USA for protection.


The problem with that is that we would no longer be a sovereign country, but a vassal state of the US.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> I would even dare to say that Military is really not essential to Canada, since we have the Americans to protect us. It would probably be more cost effective to just pay USA for protection.


And they would do so on their terms and priorities. and put us on a level of Guam.  Quite frankly, that line of thinking is held by a number of Canadians (that and 'who would attack us - we're nice') and is part of the reason why our military is in the state it is in.  We allow the politicians to get away with largely ignoring it.


----------



## HiTechComms

Retired AF Guy said:


> The problem with that is that we would no longer be a sovereign country, but a vassal state of the US.


According to Justin Trudeau we are post nation state and in the words of Hillary Clinton "what does it matter now". I don't know about you but I want nothing to do with Nationalism especially in the age of cancel culture or you might find your self on a terrorist list.


----------



## HiTechComms

Jarnhamar said:


> Americans might get tired of us calling them for help with forest fires, snow storms, floods, scaring off illegal fishing boats, taking care of LTC facilities, supporting First Nation reserves up north, supporting the police and so on.
> 
> Come to think of it they don't have a great track record of leaving once they come to your country to "help". But yea no one will probably invade us either way.


You have simply described problems which the military is not made for. Well except for illegal fishing boats and even then coast guard could do the job. 
It really paints a rosy picture how utterly our politicians have corrupted the system.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:


> According to Justin Trudeau we are post nation state and in the words of Hillary Clinton "what does it matter now". I don't know about you but I want nothing to do with Nationalism especially in the age of cancel culture or you might find your self on a terrorist list.


Perhaps this would be a better place for CDN/US political discussion,​​CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Perhaps this would be a better place for CDN/US political discussion,​​CDN/US Covid-related political discussion​44 pages.


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> You have simply described problems which the military is not made for. Well except for illegal fishing boats and even then coast guard could do the job.
> It really paints a rosy picture how utterly our politicians have corrupted the system.


Not made for, but used for never the less. When a young soldier with a grade 10 education is making the same household income as the average Canadian family tax payers want their monies worth. Also politically convienient to throw service members at a problem as a one stop fix.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Who else can the politicians thrust into the breech to skin them out of their own dilemmas? Equipment, budgets, and any other number of real world problems the military faces are immaterial to the politicians that keep a military in Canada because it gives them a no nonsense, servile group they can thrust at forest fires, floods, ice storms, old age homes and snowfalls. Warfighting is a secondary tasking to be used only when politicians fail to do their own jobs properly and have gummed things up, to the point, that there is no option left.


----------



## daftandbarmy

This is just one of the looming, collateral damage nightmares out there right now because of COVID:

Doctors fear an impending wave of cancer patients after COVID-19 delays​Cancer research has also suffered during the pandemic due to the cancellation of major fundraisers

https://www.vicnews.com/news/doctor...ave-of-cancer-patients-after-covid-19-delays/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ah good. The unbiased and completely impartial WHO team sent to figure out the origins of Coronavirus have concluded it probably didn't come from the Wuhan Institute of Virology next door to the first cases of Covid19.

China and the WHO have of course been transparent (much like our own government) from the beginning and definitely didn't downplay or hide information related to Covid19 (e.g it's transmittable to humans).

WHO team: Coronavirus unlikely to have leaked from China lab​Link


In other news Zhang Zhan, a 37-year-old citizen journalist who roamed Wuhan at the time of the coronavirus outbreak and reported on it, is in prison on a 4 year sentence for “picking quarrels and provoking trouble,”.
Link


----------



## PMedMoe

Well, maybe you'll believe other sources:

Did Covid-19 Come From A Lab?

Scientists: 'Exactly zero' evidence COVID-19 came from a lab

Why misinformation about COVID-19’s origins keeps going viral


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:


> Well, maybe you'll believe other sources:
> 
> Did Covid-19 Come From A Lab?



_"In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the only way to get closer to understanding its mysterious origin is to *send an unbiased international team* into China to conduct a formal investigation"_

Right. Unbiased. I don't consider a team from China and The WHO exactly unbiased.




PMedMoe said:


> Scientists: 'Exactly zero' evidence COVID-19 came from a lab



_"We have exactly *zero evidence or data of this having any connection to a lab.* And while Andersen, like other prominent virologists, says that he *can't completely rule *out the possibility that the virus came from a lab, the odds of that happening are very small."_


Experts at The WHO:
"The World Health Organization reports *there is no evidence of human-to-human spread* of the new coronavirus that has sickened dozens, but says the possibility *cannot be ruled out.*"




PMedMoe said:


> Why misinformation about COVID-19’s origins keeps going viral



Personally I'm of the opinion that even if there was irrefutable, undeniable evidence found that this virus was linked to the facility in Wuhan or China (gov) the government wasn't going to let themselves be blamed and implicated. China doesn't exactly react well to bad press. 
Many Chinese citizens who reported on Covid were arrested, put in prison, missing and probably even dead. But this team was unbiased and free to implicate China? Ya right.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> _"In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the only way to get closer to understanding its mysterious origin is to *send an unbiased international team* into China to conduct a formal investigation"_
> 
> Right. Unbiased. I don't consider a team from China and The WHO exactly unbiased.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"We have exactly *zero evidence or data of this having any connection to a lab.* And while Andersen, like other prominent virologists, says that he *can't completely rule *out the possibility that the virus came from a lab, the odds of that happening are very small."_
> 
> 
> Experts at The WHO:
> "The World Health Organization reports *there is no evidence of human-to-human spread* of the new coronavirus that has sickened dozens, but says the possibility *cannot be ruled out.*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I'm of the opinion that even if there was irrefutable, undeniable evidence found that this virus was linked to the facility in Wuhan or China (gov) the government wasn't going to let themselves be blamed and implicated. China doesn't exactly react well to bad press.
> Many Chinese citizens who reported on Covid were arrested, put in prison, missing and probably even dead. But this team was unbiased and free to implicate China? Ya right.



It's OK, China has a strong commitment to (re) education:









						Xinjiang internment camps - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Personally I'm of the opinion that even if there was irrefutable, undeniable evidence found that this virus was linked to the facility in Wuhan or China (gov) the government wasn't going to let themselves be blamed and implicated. China doesn't exactly react well to bad press.
> Many Chinese citizens who reported on Covid were arrested, put in prison, missing and probably even dead. But this team was unbiased and free to implicate China? Ya right.


Well, maybe you're just looking to blame someone.

Coronavirus: Is there any evidence for lab release theory?

Here's How Scientists Know Coronavirus Wasn't Made in a Lab 

No, the coronavirus wasn’t made in a lab. A genetic analysis shows it’s from nature


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:


> Well, maybe you're just looking to blame someone.


Nope. I'm saying China and The WHO can't be trusted to conduct an unbiased investigation and wouldn't release damning information regardless what the findings are.


In Hunt for Virus Source, W.H.O. Let China Take Charge​


> _“If we don’t know the source then we’re equally vulnerable in the future to a similar outbreak,” Michael Ryan, the World Health Organization’s emergency director, had said that week in Geneva. “Understanding that source is a very important next step.”
> 
> What the team members did not know was that they would not be allowed to investigate the source at all. Despite Dr. Ryan’s pronouncements, and over the advice of its emergency committee, the organization’s leadership had quietly negotiated terms that sidelined its own experts. They would not question China’s initial response or even visit the live-animal market in the city of Wuhan where the outbreak seemed to have originated._


_
Link_


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Nope. I'm saying China and The WHO can't be trusted to conduct an unbiased investigation and wouldn't release damning information regardless what the findings are.


Fair enough.  I don't think I'd trust a single investigation either.


----------



## Remius

In case anyone thinks that suicide rates on the rise due to the pandemic.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/suicides-alberta-bc-saskatchewan-canada-2020-no-increase-1.5902908


----------



## RangerRay

I don’t think we will find out the true story of what happened in Wuhan. The Chinese Communist Party will never allow an independent investigation. The WHO relied on misinformation from the CCP, and now thanks to Trump, relies on Beijing’s coin for funding. Even in the early days of the pandemic, the WHO had no way to challenge the information from Beijing. It’s no secret that Beijing has been increasing it’s influence on international organizations while the Americans have been withdrawing from them, even before Trump.

It still doesn’t excuse Canada’s shoddy response and vaccine rollout.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> We have exactly zero evidence or data of this having any connection to a lab.



That's the same amount of evidence or data for the most likely alternative (host-to-human).  Without patient Zero and patient Zero's history, all that we have are competing hypotheses, with different likelihoods.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RangerRay said:


> and now thanks to Trump, relies on Beijing’s coin for funding.


I think you're leaving out a few people who contribute more money to the WHO than China... 

*Top 20 contributors to the Programme budget 2018
Link*

USA
Bill & Melinda gates Foundation
UK and Northern Ireland
Germany
GAVI Alliance
UNOCHA
Japan
National Philanthropic Trust
Rotary International
European Commission
Kuwait
Sweden
CERF
Australia
Norway
China
Canada
Republic of Korea
France
UAE


----------



## Messerschmitt

360 days ago, travel restrictions


> are driven by "fear, misinformation, racism and xenophobia," rather than science.


and


> The World Health Organization has advised against travel restrictions during the COVID-19 outbreak on the grounds that they do more harm than good.


this is besides how WHO at the beginning said masks do more harm than good if you are not sick, so don't wear them, then switched together with Fauci to say we should wear 2 of them.


> Hoffman praised Canada for not imposing any travel restrictions on people coming from China.
> "It kind of makes me proud that my country is doing it right."
> 
> By contrast, Hoffman said the U.S. and Australia are prime examples of countries that are breaking international law.



https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/travel...-and-illegal-global-law-experts-say-1.4811701

This was before the virus was present in only a few countries and in it's infancy.

Now 360 days later, when the entire world is infected, when there is a global vaccine for the same global virus, there is no international law that is being broken? No civil liberties? No charter of rights? So much focus on "travel is bad, you are a covid superspreader" when almost every single country in the world fully went through 1st and 2nd waves.

Then we have so much focus on UK variant and SA variant and Brazil variant. Last time I checked, Canada is not rainbow unicorn land where the virus wouldn't dare to mutate. And it's the same vaccine(s) that is being administred in Canada just as much as it is in UK or SA or Brazil who have these variants.


----------



## RangerRay

Jarnhamar said:


> I think you're leaving out a few people who contribute more money to the WHO than China...
> 
> *Top 20 contributors to the Programme budget 2018
> Link*
> 
> USA
> Bill & Melinda gates Foundation
> UK and Northern Ireland
> Germany
> GAVI Alliance
> UNOCHA
> Japan
> National Philanthropic Trust
> Rotary International
> European Commission
> Kuwait
> Sweden
> CERF
> Australia
> Norway
> China
> Canada
> Republic of Korea
> France
> UAE



Thanks for that. I see that those are 2018 numbers and the US withdrew in late 2020 so I have no idea if those numbers have changed. Either way, withdrawing from international organizations won’t help in fixing them and getting them from under the influence of bad state actors like China.

Unless a defector from the Wuhan lab shows up in Singapore and announces to the world that the virus came from there, we will never truly know how it originated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RangerRay said:


> Either way, withdrawing from international organizations won’t help in fixing them and getting them from under the influence of bad state actors like China.


The WHO is clearly under the influence of China despite China contributing less monitarily than a country of 5 million people. It makes you wonder where the influence is coming from.

As for withdrawing not fixing the problem, I'd say the opposite. Continuing to pump money into them isn't going to motivate them to change. Taking money away from someone is going to motivate them to sort their shit out.
We'll, not anymore since Biden is just reversing it.



RangerRay said:


> Unless a defector from the Wuhan lab shows up in Singapore and announces to the world that the virus came from there, we will never truly know how it originated.


This is China, they wouldn't get past the city limits alive.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PMedMoe said:


> Well, maybe you're just looking to blame someone.
> 
> Coronavirus: Is there any evidence for lab release theory?
> 
> Here's How Scientists Know Coronavirus Wasn't Made in a Lab
> 
> No, the coronavirus wasn’t made in a lab. A genetic analysis shows it’s from nature


Nothing newer then last July??  Guess the CCP stopped buying articles?


----------



## blacktriangle

RangerRay said:


> Unless a defector from the Wuhan lab shows up in Singapore and announces to the world that the virus came from there, we will never truly know how it originated.


Even then, we would never really know for sure as the defector may have their own underlying motivations other than the truth. 

What gets me is the "virus definitely came from nature" line. Yes, just like so many other viruses. That doesn't stop it from leaking out of a lab where it was being studied. I'm sure we could go find some ancient viruses frozen in ice somewhere, bring them to a lab, and then have them escape. Did the virus come from nature, or from the lab? We wouldn't be lying by saying it came from nature, and could gloss over the fact that our lab leak facilitated mass infections...

Whether it's a living virus, computer malware, aircraft wreckage etc, the masses have to rely on the "experts" to determine origins & sequence of events. They don't have the knowledge or access to evidence to draw their own accurate conclusions. Even highly intelligent people can be corrupted, silenced, or mislead. Without having the requisite access or knowledge to draw our own accurate conclusions, I think we should all keep an open mind without being emotionally invested in one position or another. Most people don't care and are simply waiting for lockdowns to end, and patio season to return. 

Ultimately, it does not matter. The reality we now find ourselves in cannot be undone.


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nothing newer then last July??


TBH, I didn't even look at the dates of the articles.  I guess if you don't believe it was deliberately leaked from a lab, you don't need any newer news.

I'm not saying it's absolute; they may have been working on viruses and one got out by accident or sabotage.  But anyone thinking China is the only country doing this is pretty naive, IMO.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They're not....but if this whole scenario, Govt whitewash,  whistle-blowers dissapearing, denial, etc had all happened near downtown  Winnipeg I'd have lots and lots of lingering questions ....


----------



## Kilted

I have another theory.  The Ontario Teachers Union is behind Covid in order to reduce class sizes.


----------



## CBH99

I think it has been well said by several members here, all looking at this from different perspectives.

Can we trust an investigation run by China to be transparent, open, and honest?  No.  China controls what gets released with an iron fist, and even today is under-reporting their numbers substantially.

Did it come from a lab?  Was it made in a lab?  (Two different questions, yet have been used interchangeably above.)  It's very possible it was created by nature, yet still escaped a lab setting & has subsequently led to what we are experiencing today.  Without a patient zero, and a confirmed initial source, it will be impossible to positively determine 'how' this virus initially spread to the general population.

The initial story of some guy eating a bat and now we're all going to die seemed a bit far fetched, even when I first heard it.  The suggestion that it escaped the nearby lab (survived decontamination, worker negligence, shoddy practices, etc) that just so happens to study coronaviruses seemed far more plausible, at least to my ears.




I'm a huge astronomy nerd, and I'm always trying to learn about science whenever I can...*but I'm about to prove how little about this kind of science I actually know.*

Let's say I decide to eat a gopher one day.  And this gopher just so happens to have a weird virus that humans have never been exposed to, and I'm the lucky guy who gets to make first contact.

So I cook the gopher.  Eat the gopher.  This viruses survives the cooking process, and after eating the gopher, this virus somehow ends up...in my lungs?  Huh?

And now let's pretend I live in Wuhan, China.  And I also happen to be the most popular motherf**ker on planet earth, and everybody I come into contact with *a)* get's infected, and* b)* hops in a plane over the next few days, and they fly all over the damn planet.

And now, millions of people all over planet Earth are dead, dying, or sick...all because I chose to eat the wrong gopher...


OR...


There is a lab about a block away from me, that just so happens to study coronaviruses, that accidentally had a sample escape the lab.  And I live in China, so admitting the virus that has wreaked havoc across the planet came from one of our labs is going to cause a lot of issues, sooooo... guy eats bat = you all die ...  it sounds dumb, but it's better than the alternative.


----------



## CBH99

Just wait until some of those viruses frozen under the ice of the Arctic or Antarctica start to warm up, reanimate, and become airborne as the ice melts.  Or some alien virus living in frozen ice ends up on Earth from a meteorite burning through the atmosphere on it's way in.

Might just make this Covid thing look like nonsense


----------



## blacktriangle

CBH99 said:


> Just wait until some of those viruses frozen under the ice of the Arctic or Antarctica start to warm up, reanimate, and become airborne as the ice melts.  Or some alien virus living in frozen ice ends up on Earth from a meteorite burning through the atmosphere on it's way in.
> 
> Might just make this Covid thing look like nonsense



Even better, when the prehistoric viruses from ice samples start escaping the labs, they can conveniently blame it on climate change...


----------



## CBH99

Ooooooohhhhhhhh.  I think the CCP has a job opening for you, probably pays decently well too


----------



## blacktriangle

Well as PMedMoe suggested...one might not have to go as far as you think to find such things. I'd rather live in Maryland than Wuhan. (OK, maybe not Baltimore...  )


----------



## PMedMoe

Hey, maybe the virus was created in the U.S. and then someone took it to China!

"Of particular concern are mishaps occurring at institutions working with the world's most dangerous pathogens in biosafety level 3 and 4 labs — the two highest levels of containment that have proliferated since the 9/11 terror attacks in 2001. Yet *there is no publicly available list of these labs, and the scope of their research and safety records are largely unknown to most state health departments* charged with responding to disease outbreaks. Even the federal government doesn't know where they all are, the Government Accountability Office has warned for years."

Inside America's secretive biolabs


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PMedMoe said:


> Hey, maybe the virus was created in the U.S. and then someone took it to China!


Chinese espionage ??  That's the kind of talk that makes folks disappear...


----------



## blacktriangle

Maybe it was an election year false flag orchestrated by the Democrats.


----------



## HiTechComms

Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles. 
WHO did the same on January 6th.

Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.

All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:

Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Certain health care is a right......you can argue drugs are health care,...not covered,....ambulance are health care,...not covered, good dental,...guess?

Methinks you need to start your argument with a firmer number 1 before you try and count higher.


----------



## blacktriangle

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Certain health care is a right......you can argue drugs are health care,...not covered,....ambulance are health care,...not covered, good dental,...guess?
> 
> Methinks you need to start your argument with a firmer number 1 before you try and count higher.


I think he's on to something with #3 though...

Apparently our hospitals & healthcare system in general are always on the brink of being overwhelmed. So perhaps we should focus on actually doing something about that? Obviously it won't help us with the first or second wave of this crisis, but when the 10th wave (or something else entirely) comes along, it would be nice to have learned something from this and adjusted accordingly. 

I'd also be curious how much "HQ bloat" exists in the system.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Doesn't more taxes always seem to be that answer?


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles.
> WHO did the same on January 6th.
> 
> Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.
> 
> All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:
> 
> Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
> If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
> Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
> Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
> Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?



Let me know how far your 'right' to health care carries you if the beds are physically full, and if there literally are not the necessary critical care staff, respiratory therapists, etc to actually provide care. The measures to date have been to keep demand within the ability to supply, because you cannot generate those people out of thin air when more are needed. All of those capable of working intensive care have been balls to the wall for nearly a year. If you think there's any deficiency in how much those particular 'public servants' (critical care and supporting staff) are serving the public, you're deluded. While Ontario, for instance, is trending down, some ICUs were running well over 100% capacity, patients were being transferred to much less affected regions, and as a province we were very close to ICUs having to decide who would be denied lifesaving care because there is eventually a finite number of ventilators that can be hooked up to patients and monitored.

Building 'good enough' physical facilities in a crunch is the easy part. The choke point is the qualified staff to run them.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> Just wait until some of those viruses frozen under the ice of the Arctic or Antarctica start to warm up, reanimate, and become airborne as the ice melts.  Or some alien virus living in frozen ice ends up on Earth from a meteorite burning through the atmosphere on it's way in.
> 
> Might just make this Covid thing look like nonsense





HiTechComms said:


> Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?



I know a few of the the people who plan and build hospitals out this way. Luckily, even though many of them happen to be public servants, they are very concerned with how much hard earned taxpayers money gets spent on what, and when. Consequently, they do alot of analysis and consultation, and have been getting really good at getting the 'biggest bang for the buck' out of the existing capacity.

If we didn't have social distancing, and other COVID mitigating activities, going on we'd need about 3 times the number of hospitals we have now.... for a few months. This would likely 'waste' many $ billions.

Oh, and as I understand it, it takes about four of five years to plan and build a new hospital in a cost effective, fully engaged with the public, kind of way.


----------



## Blackadder1916

HiTechComms said:


> If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public



No, health care workers are not, necessarily, public servants.  Only those who work for the government.  The majority of primary contacts (visits to a health care provider, i.e. doctor, with an initial complaint) are with family physicians or a doc in the box (walk-in clinics).  Those are predominately private businesses.  The doctors are small businessmen/women who operate their own shops either individually or in groups, or contract a private company to provide the facilities and staff they need to practice (_I used to work for one of those private companies_).  Even most specialists, the guys most think of when they see a doc in a white coat doing rounds in a hospital, are not government employees even though they may be doing most of their work in a "government owned" hospital.  Some may receive partial remuneration by salary (more so if they have some management duties in addition to their clinical role), but mostly they are paid by billing the provincial health insurance plan for the services they render, probably just the same as if the company you work for provided service to a government agency - send them a bill and the government pays it - does it make you a public servant.

I could go on about other "health care workers" - pharmacists, physiotherapists, chiropractors, dentists, long term care workers . . . and the employment relationships they have (or not have) with government.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Rights" can usually be divided into positive rights (entitlements and powers) and negative rights (freedoms and immunities).  Positive rights require others to provide the means.  Negative rights require only non-interference.

Health care is an entitlement.  Freedom of speech is a freedom.  Since public resources are finite, the right to health care is subject to a lot of boundaries.


----------



## HiTechComms

Brad Sallows said:


> "Rights" can usually be divided into positive rights (entitlements and powers) and negative rights (freedoms and immunities).  Positive rights require others to provide the means.  Negative rights require only non-interference.
> 
> Health care is an entitlement.  Freedom of speech is a freedom.  Since public resources are finite, the right to health care is subject to a lot of boundaries.


Some one finally brought it up. Ding Ding you are a winner on spotting my point.

Most "Canadians" will never spot these as they are spoiled entitled brats. As my recently deceased Grandmother (which died in isolation and I couldn't see her, no she didn't die of the virus, she died because she was old) said, "Always people want to take care of things with some one else's hands and wallets".

Covid just like everything else made in China is not very good because it simply is bad at what it does. Statistically medical errors kill more Canadians per year then this less then stellar virus has. 

At least there is a silver lining, no one is going to hospitals or seeing incompetant medical staff that were more likely to kill them with an error than COVID.. So I guess all in all we are saving lives.


----------



## HiTechComms

Blackadder1916 said:


> No, health care workers are not, necessarily, public servants.  Only those who work for the government.  The majority of primary contacts (visits to a health care provider, i.e. doctor, with an initial complaint) are with family physicians or a doc in the box (walk-in clinics).  Those are predominately private businesses.  The doctors are small businessmen/women who operate their own shops either individually or in groups, or contract a private company to provide the facilities and staff they need to practice (_I used to work for one of those private companies_).  Even most specialists, the guys most think of when they see a doc in a white coat doing rounds in a hospital, are not government employees even though they may be doing most of their work in a "government owned" hospital.  Some may receive partial remuneration by salary (more so if they have some management duties in addition to their clinical role), but mostly they are paid by billing the provincial health insurance plan for the services they render, probably just the same as if the company you work for provided service to a government agency - send them a bill and the government pays it - does it make you a public servant.
> 
> I could go on about other "health care workers" - pharmacists, physiotherapists, chiropractors, dentists, long term care workers . . . and the employment relationships they have (or not have) with government.


I was referring to the ones that get paid by the government.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> I was referring to the ones that get paid by the government.


 That would narrow it down to Indigenous Affairs (or whatever it's called now) and any federal/provincial government department that has its own medical staff.  My B-in-L is a regional coroner; he would be a civil servant, although he generally deals with patients with a decidedly poor outcome.


----------



## blacktriangle

HiTechComms said:


> Covid just like everything else made in China is not very good because it simply is bad at what it does. Statistically medical errors kill more Canadians per year then this less then stellar virus has.


Not wanting to drift the thread back to the origins of the virus, but...if the virus was engineered or released purposefully, did it ever occur to you that the intent was not to kill the most people? Perhaps it was intended to disrupt economies, overwhelm healthcare infrastructure, and create chaos? If so, it worked.


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> I know a few of the the people who plan and build hospitals out this way. Luckily, even though many of them happen to be public servants, they are very concerned with how much hard earned taxpayers money gets spent on what, and when. Consequently, they do alot of analysis and consultation, and have been getting really good at getting the 'biggest bang for the buck' out of the existing capacity.
> 
> If we didn't have social distancing, and other COVID mitigating activities, going on we'd need about 3 times the number of hospitals we have now.... for a few months. This would likely 'waste' many $ billions.
> 
> Oh, and as I understand it, it takes about four of five years to plan and build a new hospital in a cost effective, fully engaged with the public, kind of way.


Government doing anything "cost" effective is an oxymoron. Time and Time again government has proven have no accountability to cost effectiveness.

Masks and social distancing to do what? Flatten the curve? to save the health care?

Yet

Maybe everyone should start with Flattening their FAT GUTS. This country is full of Obesse people which incidentally is the number 1 comorbidity in Covid related sickness. Obesity related sickness kills more people per year then this disease ever will.
If government would truly care maybe they would try and do something about this pandemic first. 
What about Opiod pandemic, in BC we had more people die of OD's then this disease. 

I just think politicians just make a big deal out of this disease because
1. They are OLD
2. They are FAT
3. They are afraid for them selves and no one else.

If anyone with an inkling of common sense looked at the statistics would realize that the "cure" is far worse then the disease at this point and the certified political geniuses we idiotically elected are doubling down on non science.

To those that will argue your killing Grandma..

Yeah my grandma did die I will never see her and most likely neither my grandpa not because of COVID but because lack of care because the Public sector pukes were to afraid to their job that tax money pays for them.. Thank god I can afford to pay for private care for them because the public sector failed them miserably.

I am oh so tired of this moral panic over natural state of things (people will die because they are weak and frail). Canada has a lot of OLD, FAT people. Western Countries have garbage demographics. Compare us to India.


----------



## HiTechComms

reveng said:


> Not wanting to drift the thread back to the origins of the virus, but...if the virus was engineered or released purposefully, did it ever occur to you that the intent was not to kill the most people? Perhaps it was intended to disrupt economies, overwhelm healthcare infrastructure, and create chaos? If so, it worked.


It did. I was born in a Socialist utopia and escaped from it. This was what they did. Never trust a commie.


----------



## FM07

HiTechComms said:


> Government doing anything "cost" effective is an oxymoron. Time and Time again government has proven have no accountability to cost effectiveness.
> 
> Masks and social distancing to do what? Flatten the curve? to save the health care?
> 
> Yet
> 
> Maybe everyone should start with Flattening their FAT GUTS. This country is full of Obesse people which incidentally is the number 1 comorbidity in Covid related sickness. Obesity related sickness kills more people per year then this disease ever will.
> If government would truly care maybe they would try and do something about this pandemic first.
> What about Opiod pandemic, in BC we had more people die of OD's then this disease.
> 
> I just think politicians just make a big deal out of this disease because
> 1. They are OLD
> 2. They are FAT
> 3. They are afraid for them selves and no one else.
> 
> If anyone with an inkling of common sense looked at the statistics would realize that the "cure" is far worse then the disease at this point and the certified political geniuses we idiotically elected are doubling down on non science.
> 
> To those that will argue your killing Grandma..
> 
> Yeah my grandma did die I will never see her and most likely neither my grandpa not because of COVID but because lack of care because the Public sector pukes were to afraid to their job that tax money pays for them.. Thank god I can afford to pay for private care for them because the public sector failed them miserably.
> 
> I am oh so tired of this moral panic over natural state of things (people will die because they are weak and frail). Canada has a lot of OLD, FAT people. Western Countries have garbage demographics. Compare us to India.


There are way too many fat people in the west. So much so that the pentagon chief stated that if a draft was to occur, there would be so many obese people that it would constitute a national security crisis. Terrible.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> Funny how on January 9th Ontario health redefined PCR test results from above 30 cycles to under 30 cycles.
> WHO did the same on January 6th.
> 
> Its now a Sniffles Challenge. We must stop people from getting the Sniffles because the people might go to the doctor.
> 
> All this to save the Health Care from being over run. Which leads me to shower thoughts:
> 
> Health Care is a right in Canada and then why am I rationing my right to healthcare.. I don't ration my freedom of speech because I may run out of it.
> If you work in Health care you are a public servant.. So shouldn't you serve the Public?
> Health Care is over run during normal Flu season so why are we concerned with the Cold?
> Efficiency and bang for your buck is at 80% utilization rate of any resource so how come with all the bailout money didn't we build any more hospitals?
> Why can't I call it Chinese/Wuhan Virus, Chinese make up a large majority of the worlds population compared to my Easter European ethnicity?



1. No it's not.  Technically, it could be disbanded tomorrow.  If it were a right, foreign citizens injured would be covered because the SCOC ruled in 1985 that the Charter applies to all on Canadian soil.

2. Answered above.

3.  Health care is stressed during flu season, but not overrun.  The WHO estimates about 650,009 people worldwide die form diseases linked to influenza.  One year in, the US alone has lost ~468,000 to Covid.; worldwide it is estimated to be about 2,350,000.  Common cold indeed.

4.  Given that we are about one year in, I imagine it takes several years just to plan a hospital let alone build one.

5.  You call call it whatever you like, although I will grant that there seems to be some 'sensitivities' around it, probably because Trump was trying to weaponize the term.  There seems to be little angst calling the variants by their country of origin.


----------



## Weinie

FM07 said:


> *There are way too many fat people in the west.* So much so that the pentagon chief stated that if a draft was to occur, there would be so many obese people that it would constitute a national security crisis. Terrible.


Hey, I am on here.  

And there are also very many entitled, whiny, narcissistic, opinionated people, who hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and cast aspersions on all and sundry, based on their tantrum of the moment. When I grew up, saying something derogatory like this to someone's face would likely get you a punch in the head, and rightly so. Fast forward 40 years, and it is the Wild West all over again, except that transgressors don't get killed in a gunfight. Pity that, because one effect it had was "pour encourager les autres"


----------



## CBH99

PMedMoe said:


> Hey, maybe the virus was created in the U.S. and then someone took it to China!
> 
> "Of particular concern are mishaps occurring at institutions working with the world's most dangerous pathogens in biosafety level 3 and 4 labs — the two highest levels of containment that have proliferated since the 9/11 terror attacks in 2001. Yet *there is no publicly available list of these labs, and the scope of their research and safety records are largely unknown to most state health departments* charged with responding to disease outbreaks. Even the federal government doesn't know where they all are, the Government Accountability Office has warned for years."
> 
> Inside America's secretive biolabs


The idea that the US government does not know where some of the biolabs are that study extremely dangerous pathogens is a wee bit concerning...


----------



## CBH99

reveng said:


> I think he's on to something with #3 though...
> 
> Apparently our hospitals & healthcare system in general are always on the brink of being overwhelmed. So perhaps we should focus on actually doing something about that? Obviously it won't help us with the first or second wave of this crisis, but when the 10th wave (or something else entirely) comes along, it would be nice to have learned something from this and adjusted accordingly.
> 
> I'd also be curious how much "HQ bloat" exists in the system.


I worked in a very large & busy hospital for about a year, while transitioning into my current job.

Just to clarify something in regards to what you wrote here - the media & politicians tend to get the details wrong.  (Shocking, I know...the two smartest kinds of people society has to offer.)

-  ICU's are typically ALWAYS busy.  It's actually quite rare that they AREN'T busy.  (While sufficient capacity needs to exist, they always tend to be quite busy regardless of how big you make them.)

-  I know in Calgary & Edmonton areas, one of the things that creates such a problem for hospitals is that some people use the hospital as they would their neighbourhood GP.  People come into the ER 'ALL THE TIME' with absolute nonsense...headaches, the sniffles, "I think I might have a cold" - etc etc.  It is dealing with these people (and there are so many more than I ever realized) that is a considerable drain on space & resources, when they could just go to their local doctor.  


As for HQ bloat, it's terrifying.  Bloat is probably the most polite word I could think of to describe it - and you don't even want to know the salaries of the bloated butts that constitute the bloat.  (It's such a blatant waste of taxpayer money, it should honestly be illegal.)


----------



## HiTechComms

lenaitch said:


> 1. No it's not.  Technically, it could be disbanded tomorrow.  If it were a right, foreign citizens injured would be covered because the SCOC ruled in 1985 that the Charter applies to all on Canadian soil.
> 
> 2. Answered above.
> 
> 3.  Health care is stressed during flu season, but not overrun.  The WHO estimates about 650,009 people worldwide die form diseases linked to influenza.  One year in, the US alone has lost ~468,000 to Covid.; worldwide it is estimated to be about 2,350,000.  Common cold indeed.
> 
> 4.  Given that we are about one year in, I imagine it takes several years just to plan a hospital let alone build one.
> 
> 5.  You call call it whatever you like, although I will grant that there seems to be some 'sensitivities' around it, probably because Trump was trying to weaponize the term.  There seems to be little angst calling the variants by their country of origin.


3. None of those stats are trustworthy especially from USA because they have been heavily edited by MSM (unless you go to CDC source which most people are to dumb and lazy to look at), yet the democratic states still are on top of the heap of deaths. Having said that Everything has been now "covid" death even car accidents. The WHO, oh please does any one believe anything these flippen  clowns say any more.. They did say COVID is not human to human transmissible, they are nothing but a political puppet. TB kills 1.5 million people deaths a year but Cardio vascular disease kills even more. Lets not forget the majority of people that died of covid had an average 2.7 comorbididies.
Lets completely discount the fact that we have an Aging population. All provinces in Canada except for Alberta have more people over 65 then under 15. Oh noes OLD people die! The entitlement that we can somehow keep people alive forever at any cost is just beyond ludicrous. Didn't some of the battles in WW1 have 40k thousand allied soldiers die in AN HOUR?!!

We are trashing our economy, we are destroying the future generations by never looking at the actual economic and societal costs.

Oh lets just forget we have 7.8 billion people on this mud ball, aren't we all gone die of Global warming any way, haven't they been advocating for "having less people" ?

4. Yeah if you leave it to the morons in the Government. Just like the procurement system in the CAF.

5. Yeah the Chinese Communists can whine about it. But then again I don't give a flying rats butt about an ethno-fascist state that has concentration camps for Religious minorities which they harvest  people for body parts, experimentation and rape. SO BOO FRIGGEN HOO about what the Commies whine about. Oh and TAIWAN is the real China.


Shower thought:
If I had to release a bio weapon I would have done something like encephalitis that damages the brain. Man that would have been complete country killer. System supporting any one that had brain damage in the general population would collapse any society.


----------



## PMedMoe

When did this thread start requiring a tinfoil hat??


----------



## FM07

Weinie said:


> Hey, I am on here.
> 
> And there are also very many entitled, whiny, narcissistic, opinionated people, who hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and cast aspersions on all and sundry, based on their tantrum of the moment. When I grew up, saying something derogatory like this to someone's face would likely get you a punch in the head, and rightly so. Fast forward 40 years, and it is the Wild West all over again, except that transgressors don't get killed in a gunfight. Pity that, because one effect it had was "pour encourager les autres"



My apologies, that did come across as insensitive, and it wasn't my intention to offend.  By 'fat' I meant self-imposed obesity which is indeed a problem in our country. Our society, imho, does not make it easy to stay healthy and in many cases, celebrates the opposite approach. In regards to the covid situation, one's habits, healthy or otherwise, sets the tone for that persons covid defense. Our society encouraging the population to adopt healthy habits  (eating right, exercising etc), would go a long way in easing the woes of this virus. 

Thanks,


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> When did this thread start requiring a tinfoil hat??


You surely are not referring to Covid being the worst disease ever to plague the human race? hehe


----------



## HiTechComms

FM07 said:


> My apologies, that did come across as insensitive, and it wasn't my intention to offend.  By 'fat' I meant self-imposed obesity which is indeed a problem in our country. Our society, imho, does not make it easy to stay healthy and in many cases, celebrates the opposite approach. In regards to the covid situation, one's habits, healthy or otherwise, sets the tone for that persons covid defense. Our society encouraging the population to adopt healthy habits  (eating right, exercising etc), would go a long way in easing the woes of this virus.
> 
> Thanks,


Whats funny is that its ok to Shame people for not wearing masks and not following social distancing but for some reason its NOT OK to Shame people and point out the fact that FAT/Obese people are a bigger threat to the medical system. _shrug_


----------



## Good2Golf

HiTechComms said:


> Whats funny is that its ok to Shame people for not wearing masks and not following social distancing but for some reason its NOT OK to Shame people and point out the fact that FAT/Obese people are a bigger threat to the medical system. _shrug_


Because obesity and COVID are equally transmissible... 🙄


----------



## HiTechComms

Good2Golf said:


> Because obesity and COVID are equally transmissible... 🙄


Its not a zero sum game.  The only thing in commonality between the two is that it is marketable and being sold en masse.

You still haven't addressed the fact that the NUMBER #1 comorbidity of Covid deaths is Obesity. Look at the numbers, statistics, deaths. 








						Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
					

Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov
				








						COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
					

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.




					www.cdc.gov
				




Just because one is transmissable and you are trying to justify the removal of freedoms of rights because majority of these people that are dying from covid cannot control themselves by stuffing their pie holes with to much food doesn't some how absolve those people of their own responsibility of their own actions. But I am suppose to give up my freedoms and pay for it with my labour through taxes because those people keep stuffing their faces. Diseases that communicable are not the primary killers of humans any way, non communicable diseases are.

So yeah.. Sorry friggen boohoo, cry me a whambulance. I will wear a mask because I am doing my part but if your FAT I will point that out because you are not doing your part and you are part of the bigger problem (pun intended). FAT people should be shamed.

I have struggled with weight all my life since my metabolism is very efficient (unlike the majority of people saying its slow) I don't require that much energy to live.  I love food and enjoy it but I don't want to get diabetes or heart problems, I have seen what it does to people first hand.  Its called self control, and discipline and out of all the people in the world this forum should know that. Shaming and peer pressure works.

Yes I understand there are medical conditions/disease/sports exceptions.

Any one getting offended at the FAT point is most likely FAT them selves.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:


> You still haven't addressed the fact that the NUMBER #1 comorbidity of Covid deaths is Obesity. Look at the numbers, statistics, deaths.


But it isn't obesity, it's hypertension.







Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19

Dementia or Alzheimer's are the most common comorbidities associated with COVID-19 deaths

But you just keep on fat shaming people.  Must be a terrible burden to be so perfect.  🙄
​


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Good thing  this virus isn't targeting 40-something  army wannabes with bad attitudes.  What would we all do then??

Oh yes, whatever we could do too protect someone like that......


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> Because obesity and COVID are equally transmissible... 🙄





PMedMoe said:


> But you just keep on fat shaming people. Must be a terrible burden to be so perfect. 🙄
> ​


Long as I don't have to haul their bariatric asses up and down stairs, I don't care. Let them eat cake!


----------



## Good2Golf

HiTechComms said:


> Its not a zero sum game.  The only thing in commonality between the two is that it is marketable and being sold en masse.
> 
> You still haven't addressed the fact that the NUMBER #1 comorbidity of Covid deaths is Obesity. Look at the numbers, statistics, deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
> 
> 
> Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
> 
> 
> Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just because one is transmissable and you are trying to justify the removal of freedoms of rights because majority of these people that are dying from covid cannot control themselves by stuffing their pie holes with to much food doesn't some how absolve those people of their own responsibility of their own actions. But I am suppose to give up my freedoms and pay for it with my labour through taxes because those people keep stuffing their faces. Diseases that communicable are not the primary killers of humans any way, non communicable diseases are.
> 
> So yeah.. Sorry friggen boohoo, cry me a whambulance. I will wear a mask because I am doing my part but if your FAT I will point that out because you are not doing your part and you are part of the bigger problem (pun intended). FAT people should be shamed.
> 
> I have struggled with weight all my life since my metabolism is very efficient (unlike the majority of people saying its slow) I don't require that much energy to live.  I love food and enjoy it but I don't want to get diabetes or heart problems, I have seen what it does to people first hand.  Its called self control, and discipline and out of all the people in the world this forum should know that. Shaming and peer pressure works.
> 
> Yes I understand there are medical conditions/disease/sports exceptions.
> 
> Any one getting offended at the FAT point is most likely FAT them selves.


So let me get this right, according to you, we should shame:

mask non-wearers
fat people
public servants
politicians
military members
forum members who just don’t have as much experience and awesomeness as you
others that we haven’t mentioned yet, but that you would no doubt feel should be shamed

Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check.

Don’t forget to shame your peer recruits during basic training when they’re not living up to your expectations.


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> But it isn't obesity, it's hypertension.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comorbidity and its Impact on Patients with COVID-19
> 
> Dementia or Alzheimer's are the most common comorbidities associated with COVID-19 deaths
> 
> But you just keep on fat shaming people.  Must be a terrible burden to be so perfect.  🙄
> ​


Hyper Tension








						High Blood Pressure Symptoms, Causes, and Problems | cdc.gov
					

High blood pressure, also called hypertension, usually has no warning signs or symptoms. Get facts about high blood pressure from CDC.




					www.cdc.gov
				




HMMM Obesity causes HyperTension.

I am not perfect but it doesn't require perfection not to stuff your face.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:


> HMMM Obesity causes HyperTension.


It can be one of the factors, yes.  But that still doesn't make your claim of obesity being the #1 COVID comorbidity correct.


----------



## HiTechComms

Good2Golf said:


> So let me get this right, according to you, we should shame:
> 
> mask non-wearers
> fat people
> public servants
> politicians
> military members
> forum members who just don’t have as much experience and awesomeness as you
> others that we haven’t mentioned yet, but that you would no doubt feel should be shamed
> 
> Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check.
> 
> Don’t forget to shame your peer recruits during basic training when they’re not living up to your expectations.


Where did I list that shaming list. Is that just your projection? Maybe sometimes people in a certain group have a positive feedback loop issue and when a dissenting opinion is seen as an attack? Maybe when you have the consensus constantly agreeing with each other you require then tenth men out to disagree out of principle in order to prevent an echo chamber? Some people refer to this as "Diversity"

Fat people should be shamed. 
I never said shame maskers in fact I am pro masks. I just think its hypocritical to shame one and not the other.

Well maybe we should add Politicians to that list.. 

Oh I see you trying to shame me based on your personal projections. I have not attacked anyone on this forum I simply pointed out facts and hypocrisy. 
If you would actually know me in person and worked with me I never stoop to what you are accusing me off. I have always tried and always try to elevate my coworkers and subordinates.


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> It can be one of the factors, yes.  But that still doesn't make your claim of obesity being the #1 COVID comorbidity correct.


So if you take Hypertension as comorbidity and discount obesity as one of the root causalities then yes you are correct.  You got me on that technicality. I will give you that.

So people with Hypertensions caused by their Fat and fat people are the primary reason why you might die of covid but saying hey your Fat and should do something about it is forbidden?


----------



## PMedMoe

But obesity isn't contagious.  I know that's hard to wrap your head around, since you seem to have the health problems of the world solved.


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:


> But obesity isn't contagious.  I know that's hard to wrap your head around, since you seem to have the health problems of the world solved.


I'm going to invent the worlds first "fat mask suit", market it as the N96, solve a major problem, and then retire with my riches.


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> But obesity isn't contagious.  I know that's hard to wrap your head around, since you seem to have the health problems of the world solved.


I understand that obbesity is not contagious like a virus, what you are missing is that its not a zero sum game.  Then again Social interaction have contagious behavior, Divorced friends tend to be detrimental to married couple, Obese families tend to have obese children, but that's not my point.
Just because you have one problem it doesn't mean you stop addressing other problems that are compounding original problem even more.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:


> Just because you have one problem it doesn't mean you stop addressing other problems that are compounding original problem even more.


I never said you shouldn't.  But it isn't the be all/end all health cure you seem to think it is.


----------



## Good2Golf

HiTechComms said:


> If you would actually know me in person and worked with me I never stoop to what you are accusing me off. I have always tried and always try to elevate my coworkers and subordinates.


...and yet your arrival on this site has been a long litany of things wrong with Canada, Canadian society, Canadian Public Servants, Canadian Military, obese Canadians, etc.  You wax for the equality with which citizens were treated in your country of birth, and talk about the softness and entitlement of Canadians, especially public servants, and how industry is so much nobler, and yet you also seem driven to leave a senior IT position in industry to join an organization that you say represents the less desirable entitled part of society.

You’re all over the place, taking significant liberty with context of facts and espousing linkages that don’t exist, then snapping back when people call you in precisely the things you have said as well
as implied.  Play the misunderstood victim of our contextual ignorance as you wish, but don’t be surprised when people continue to call you on factual or logical leaps that have little basis in reality.

$0.02


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> ...and yet your arrival on this site has been a long litany of things wrong with Canada, Canadian society, Canadian Public Servants, Canadian Military, obese Canadians, etc.  You wax for the equality with which citizens were treated in your country of birth, and talk about the softness and entitlement of Canadians, especially public servants, and how industry is so much nobler, and yet you also seem driven to leave a senior IT position in industry to join an organization that you say represents the less desirable entitled part of society.
> 
> You’re all over the place, taking significant liberty with context of facts and espousing linkages that don’t exist, then snapping back when people call you in precisely the things you have said as well
> as implied.  Play the misunderstood victim of our contextual ignorance as you wish, but don’t be surprised when people continue to call you on factual or logical leaps that have little basis in reality.
> 
> $0.02


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Long as I don't have to haul their bariatric asses up and down stairs, I don't care. Let them eat cake!



Ed Koch, mayor of New York during the debate whether females should become firefighters:

_ “I don’t care what sex a firefighter is, as long as they can carry a 200 pound mayor out of a burning building.”_

(not bariatric, but still a good quote)


----------



## HiTechComms

Good2Golf said:


> ...and yet your arrival on this site has been a long litany of things wrong with Canada, Canadian society, Canadian Public Servants, Canadian Military, obese Canadians, etc.  You wax for the equality with which citizens were treated in your country of birth, and talk about the softness and entitlement of Canadians, especially public servants, and how industry is so much nobler, and yet you also seem driven to leave a senior IT position in industry to join an organization that you say represents the less desirable entitled part of society.
> 
> You’re all over the place, taking significant liberty with context of facts and espousing linkages that don’t exist, then snapping back when people call you in precisely the things you have said as well
> as implied.  Play the misunderstood victim of our contextual ignorance as you wish, but don’t be surprised when people continue to call you on factual or logical leaps that have little basis in reality.
> 
> $0.02


Fair enough as that is your opinion and observation, again I am point out my observations. I am an outsider and a foreigner and I am first gen immigrant, yes I do have a Canadian Citizenship but that doesn't mean it makes me a "Canadian" what ever that even means. I am very careful with my wording about my identity. It seems that everyone really takes things personally. I am from a culture that is direct and blunt.

What you are projecting onto me is the same thing you are guilty off. No where did I say industry is better of anything, in fact I have been very critical of the private sector in many of my posts.  I am a skeptic of all things, one thing I will give credit to private sector is that with out it everyone on the public side would be unemployed, they pay the taxes they generate the wealth. Unfortunatley I have seen the massive job fall out since its my team that processes firings.

I am a driven person and I am senior in my position but what does that have anything to do with joining the military.  No where did I say military is less desirable and if you looked into the posts I have made I am pro military.  You are assuming my motivation of wanting to join. Maybe I want "cushy public side" pension everyone keeps talking about, or maybe I want to do as least as possible cause I am tired of working hard and I see an opportunity to disconnect   Or Maybe I just want to do something very different?  

May I ask the question of why you chose to leave if you have left the military?
May I ask why are you so critical of the "industry" or private sector?
May I ask why you put everything on the public sector on a worship pedestal?

The freedom of expression cannot exist with out the freedom to offend.
Just because I disagree with you that doesn't make me a bad guy nor does it make me a good guy because I agree with you.
People take things far to personally.  You know sometimes things are just what they are and that's all they are.

As for conclusions and leaps.. What exactly did I misrepresent, 

Obesity is a problem, 
Majority of covid related Deaths have obesity in common
Majority of Deaths are amongst the Weak, old and frail.
Most deaths are in LTC's
Who gets to determine who is essential and who is not and why?
WHO is a bunch of clowns
Politicians keep changing the goal posts (PCR testing cycles, flattening curve, prevent sickness, don't kill grandma, quarntine camps, narratives keep changing)
Covid is not a hoax but its greatly exaturated in its scope and deadliness
Rights and freedoms keep getting curtailed for exactly what? Is this ever going to stop?
We are 14 days of flattening the curve a year in. I could even see my dying grandmother because I cannot travel, I wear a mask, I socially distance. I am doing my part, WTF else does the system want.
No one is having an honest conversation about COVID societal costs, because that is somehow forbidden speech.
_shrug_
Maybe I am bored and frustrated and its nice to talk to people in a civil manner with out a shouting match and name calling?


----------



## PMedMoe

Maybe the Mods need to split this thread...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

With all the swerves in 200 pages I'd be here all night,......we could just get back on topic.

Please??


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Ed Koch, mayor of New York during the debate whether females should become firefighters:
> 
> _ “I don’t care what sex a firefighter is, as long as they can carry a 200 pound mayor out of a burning building.”_
> 
> (not bariatric, but still a good quote)


I think the Mayor famously said that in the early 1980's. 

Even by 9/11, of the 11,000 members in the FDNY, about 25 were female. 

As far as Covid vaccinations in 2021 are concerned, I read an interesting article,
Why can’t NYC vaccinate like it’s 1947?​New York City gave smallpox vaccines to 5 million residents in just two weeks 74 years ago. What have we unlearned?

I read that the advantage health officials had after WW2 was that people trusted their government more back then. More than they do now.


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> Fat people should be shamed.


No they shouldn't


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:


> Why can’t NYC vaccinate like it’s 1947?​New York City gave smallpox vaccines to 5 million residents in just two weeks 74 years ago. What have we unlearned?
> 
> I read that the advantage health officials had after WW2 was that people trusted their government more back then. More than they do now.



1947 NYC Public Health Department Smallpox Vaccination Clinic

 

2021  NYC Javits Center Covid Vaccination location

 

Trust?  Yeah, that may be a component, but logistics may also play a part.  Firstly, the availability of a vaccine; secondly, the availability of qualified staff.  But even if both of those requirements are met as well as appropriate locations, what would it take to accomplish 5 million vaccinations in just two weeks?  The 1947 photo reminds me, somewhat, of the needle parades at Cornwallis in the 1970s and, to an extent, Chilliwack in the 1980s.  The 2021 photo, (in terms of spacing, staffing and procedures) is more like an enlarged (greatly enlarged) version of the vaccination clinic I was at last April (updating some of the routine ones as well as those that the over-65 crowd get).  I've done needle parades (in the "old" days) that gave jabs to hundreds in the space of an hour or two; if modern protocols were used those numbers would probably be at best 20% (if that) of the throughput.


----------



## PuckChaser

Smallpox had a mortality rate of 30%... that's a pretty big motivator compared to ~1.5%...


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:


> 1947 NYC Public Health Department Smallpox Vaccination Clinic
> 
> 
> 
> 2021  NYC Javits Center Covid Vaccination location
> 
> 
> 
> Trust?  Yeah, that may be a component, but logistics may also play a part.  Firstly, the availability of a vaccine; secondly, the availability of qualified staff.  But even if both of those requirements are met as well as appropriate locations, what would it take to accomplish 5 million vaccinations in just two weeks?  The 1947 photo reminds me, somewhat, of the needle parades at Cornwallis in the 1970s and, to an extent, Chilliwack in the 1980s.  The 2021 photo, (in terms of spacing, staffing and procedures) is more like an enlarged (greatly enlarged) version of the vaccination clinic I was at last April (updating some of the routine ones as well as those that the over-65 crowd get).  I've done needle parades (in the "old" days) that gave jabs to hundreds in the space of an hour or two; if modern protocols were used those numbers would probably be at best 20% (if that) of the throughput.


On January 3, 2021, Dr. Anthony Fauci  described his own experience in the 1947 smallpox outbreak, in specifying the potential speed of the U.S. national COVID-19 vaccination program . Fauci stated, "New York City, in March and April of 1947, vaccinated 6,350,000 people; 5 million of which they did in two weeks. I was a six-year-old boy who was one of those who got vaccinated. So if New York City can do 5 million in two weeks, the United States could do a million a day. We can do it."

The rapid response was credited with limiting the outbreak to only two deaths.

 Almost 470,000 Americans have died from the coronavirus so far, with the number widely expected to go above half a million in the next few weeks.


----------



## CBH99

Blackadder1916 said:


> Trust?  Yeah, that may be a component, but logistics may also play a part.  Firstly, the availability of a vaccine; secondly, the availability of qualified staff.


Is finding qualified staff going to be that hard for us though?  I would imagine there are more than enough nurses (RN and LPN), doctors, and other folks in the medical world that are qualified to give injections.  



Blackadder1916 said:


> I've done needle parades (in the "old" days) that gave jabs to hundreds in the space of an hour or two; if modern protocols were used those numbers would probably be at best 20% (if that) of the throughput.


What modern protocols are you referring to, that would reduce that throughout so drastically?


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Is finding qualified staff going to be that hard for us though?


It was a one-hour in-service for us stabbing our partners ( with pleasure!  ).



> I would imagine there are more than enough nurses (RN and LPN), doctors, and other folks in the medical world that are qualified to give injections.



Retired Metro members have been contacted if they wish to volunteer ( paid ) for Sioux Lookout,  Timmins, and Thunder Bay. Flying in and out of the various communities each day, starting with the James Bay coast ... smallest to largest.

One week rotations and work 14-hour days.


----------



## kratz

> Is finding qualified staff going to be that hard for us though?



At one of our meetings here, the topic of vaccinations came up and the doctors present agreed that apes could be trained within 20 minutes to administer these shots. 

The hold back is not with qualified staff, but modern perceptions, expectations and in large part the medical system protecting itself.


----------



## mariomike

kratz said:


> At one of our meetings here, the topic of vaccinations came up and the doctors present agreed that apes could be trained within 20 minutes to administer these shots.


They trained me to do it. They can train anybody.  

Not bad money for something "an ape can be trained to do." 









						Temp travel nurses are making $11K a week to give COVID-19 vaccines
					

Travel nurses are raking in big bucks as the city’s public hospital system is filing its ranks with temps to give COVID shots, some earning as much as $11,000 a week. The Health + Hospitals C…




					nypost.com
				




"This is just to deliver immunizations.”


----------



## Weinie

kratz said:


> At one of our meetings here, the topic of vaccinations came up and the doctors present agreed that *apes could be trained within 20 minutes *to administer these shots.
> 
> The hold back is not with qualified staff, but modern perceptions, expectations and in large part the medical system protecting itself.


Can I get an orangutan, and after he gives me the shot, I pretend shoot him and he falls down. I realize this may take more than 20 minutes of training.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

PuckChaser said:


> Smallpox had a mortality rate of 30%... that's a pretty big motivator compared to ~1.5%...


It's a small fraction of that amount of you're under 65 with no comorbidities.  I've seen estimates from people much smarter than me that survival rates are 99.985% in that larger population group.  So basically you're looking at lightning strike or shark attack like probabilities. The issue in that at-risk demographic (which includes my parents which is why I started reading on the subject) appears to be that COVID, although entering the body through the respiratory system, actually attacks the vascular system (in particular the lining of the blood vessels).  That's why you have so many problems with people with pre-existing heart disease and diabetes (and also explains some the odder symptoms like "COVID toes").  Of note, survival rates appear to be increasing as the third world in particular is becoming more active with interventions, as opposed to the prior lunacy of sending people home with no treatment of any sort (not even Vitamin C or D) to get to full viral load and impaired oxygen levels prior to them having to rush back to an emergency room. If anyone is curious, there's a handle on twitter by the name of COVID19Crusher who posts links to treatment trials from around the world which has been a fascinating read over the last several months, as he posts outcomes whether good or bad.  The most recent area where doctors appear to be aligning is a drug called Ivermectin, which of observational analysis proves out, really is a silver bullet.  There's also an old asthma drug (Budesonide) which the University of Oxford in England has just announced some very positive results with (Hospitalization rates cut by 90%). The best part being that unlike the vaccine candidates (which are all undergoing their stage 3 trials in the general public which frankly scares the hell out of me), it will work on all mutations, while the vaccine candidates so far appear to be more affective against some mutations but not others.  Fingers crossed as we're definitely all due for some good news out of all of this.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I'm probably one of those who are enjoying the lack of business travel....

What Covid-19 Has Done to Our Well-Being, in 12 Charts​The pandemic has led to mental health declines, increased work demands, and feelings of loneliness. But the news isn’t all bad.

How has Covid-19 and the related shift to WFH affected workers? A group of researchers surveyed HBR readers and others in the fall of 2020 and found that the vast majority reported declines in both general and workplace well-being. The biggest culprits? Mental health struggles, increased job demands, and home-life challenges. A much smaller percentage reported an increase in well-being, attributing it to reduced commutes and business travel and having more time to focus on health.



https://hbr.org/2021/02/what-covid-19-has-done-to-our-well-being-in-12-charts


----------



## lenaitch

kratz said:


> At one of our meetings here, the topic of vaccinations came up and the doctors present agreed that apes could be trained within 20 minutes to administer these shots.
> 
> The hold back is not with qualified staff, but modern perceptions, expectations and in large part the medical system protecting itself.



It really isn't rocket surgery.  I've done on horses lots of times - and they can kick and bite if displeased.  There would have to be a nurse or other medical professional for potential adverse reactions, but the ratios of nurses to stabbers could be quite large and really move the effort along.



Cdn Blackshirt said:


> It's a small fraction of that amount of you're under 65 with no comorbidities.  I've seen estimates from people much smarter than me that survival rates are 99.985% in that larger population group.  So basically you're looking at lightning strike or shark attack like probabilities. The issue in that at-risk demographic (which includes my parents which is why I started reading on the subject) appears to be that COVID, although entering the body through the respiratory system, actually attacks the vascular system (in particular the lining of the blood vessels).  That's why you have so many problems with people with pre-existing heart disease and diabetes (and also explains some the odder symptoms like "COVID toes").  Of note, survival rates appear to be increasing as the third world in particular is becoming more active with interventions, as opposed to the prior lunacy of sending people home with no treatment of any sort (not even Vitamin C or D) to get to full viral load and impaired oxygen levels prior to them having to rush back to an emergency room. If anyone is curious, there's a handle on twitter by the name of COVID19Crusher who posts links to treatment trials from around the world which has been a fascinating read over the last several months, as he posts outcomes whether good or bad.  The most recent area where doctors appear to be aligning is a drug called Ivermectin, which of observational analysis proves out, really is a silver bullet.  There's also an old asthma drug (Budesonide) which the University of Oxford in England has just announced some very positive results with (Hospitalization rates cut by 90%). The best part being that unlike the vaccine candidates (which are all undergoing their stage 3 trials in the general public which frankly scares the hell out of me), it will work on all mutations, while the vaccine candidates so far appear to be more affective against some mutations but not others.  Fingers crossed as we're definitely all due for some good news out of all of this.



Anything I have read doesn't show Ivermectin as a silver bullet for Covid; rather, the medical jury is still out and waiting for further research.  Maybe we read different things.


daftandbarmy said:


> I'm probably one of those who are enjoying the lack of business travel....
> 
> What Covid-19 Has Done to Our Well-Being, in 12 Charts​The pandemic has led to mental health declines, increased work demands, and feelings of loneliness. But the news isn’t all bad.
> 
> How has Covid-19 and the related shift to WFH affected workers? A group of researchers surveyed HBR readers and others in the fall of 2020 and found that the vast majority reported declines in both general and workplace well-being. The biggest culprits? Mental health struggles, increased job demands, and home-life challenges. A much smaller percentage reported an increase in well-being, attributing it to reduced commutes and business travel and having more time to focus on health.
> 
> 
> 
> https://hbr.org/2021/02/what-covid-19-has-done-to-our-well-being-in-12-charts


I have yet to be convinced that the WFH trend will continue in any significant way.  Much depends on a number of factors, including type of work and personality.  Our S-in-L is an IT manager has embraced it, only going into work when absolutely necessary.  Out daughter, less so.  She is in a public-facing profession and started out with great gusto catching up on dormant projects but enthusiasm waned.

Anecdotally, I have heard about people who thought that moving to their cottage would be great, until they are staring out at a dark lake in the middle of winter, a jug of milk is an hour away and the hydro and internet is dodgy.  It's perhaps one thing to shift some employees the WFH, but I'm not sure there is much experience with integrating new hires into the corporate culture.

Some zealots are even saying that Toronto and the government should scrap all their expensive transit expansion plans because they won't be needed.  I don't think they're there yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh.... Canada:


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh.... Canada:


I mean how hard is it for the power that be to simply target LTC and elderly.


----------



## Quirky

HiTechComms said:


> I mean how hard is it for the power that be to simply target LTC and elderly.



Virtue signalling trumps medicine. 









						Nearly 16,000 people in B.C.'s First Nation communities have received the COVID-19 vaccine
					

There's a glimmer of optimism as the First Nations Health Authority battles COVID-19 among B.C.'s Indigenous residents.



					bc.ctvnews.ca
				





			https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/racialized-canadians-vaccine-priority-1.5911952?fbclid=IwAR3jCL4-L9hrXKGvjtxLi4VTg4_3MlBxj5raWPFuUSQ1RvQH6WKVcH28aak
		


80 year old white people are lower on the vaccination priority list than young aboriginals and racialized people.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> Virtue signalling trumps medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly 16,000 people in B.C.'s First Nation communities have received the COVID-19 vaccine
> 
> 
> There's a glimmer of optimism as the First Nations Health Authority battles COVID-19 among B.C.'s Indigenous residents.
> 
> 
> 
> bc.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/racialized-canadians-vaccine-priority-1.5911952?fbclid=IwAR3jCL4-L9hrXKGvjtxLi4VTg4_3MlBxj5raWPFuUSQ1RvQH6WKVcH28aak
> 
> 
> 
> 80 year old white people are lower on the vaccination priority list than young aboriginals and racialized people.



They're more vulnerable, so they go to the front of the line. Makes sense....

Indigenous communities in Canada more vulnerable to COVID-19​Members of Indigenous communities in Canada are proving more likely to contract COVID-19 and to fall seriously ill than other Canadians, reflecting economic and social disparities that afflict many Indigenous populations elsewhere in the world.

Last month in the central province of Manitoba, nearly half of all patients with COVID-19 in intensive care units were from First Nations communities, even though they make up about one-fifth of the region’s population.

Northern Manitoba communities, which reported virtually no cases of COVID-19 in the first wave of infections last year, now have the highest infection rates in the province.

On and off reserves, one in four members of Indigenous communities in Manitoba have tested positive for the disease stemming from the new coronavirus — double the rate for the province as a whole. Generally, epidemiologists consider a 5% positivity rate — the share of those tested who have the sickness — too high.

Indigenous populations in Canada face many of the vulnerabilities that place some individuals at a higher risk for contracting and even dying from COVID-19.









						Indigenous communities in Canada more vulnerable to COVID-19
					

Overcrowding, a flow of migrants, lack of resources -- so many reasons Indigenous communities in Canada and elsewhere are vulnerable to COVID-19.




					news-decoder.com


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> They're more vulnerable, so they go to the front of the line. Makes sense....
> 
> Indigenous communities in Canada more vulnerable to COVID-19​Members of Indigenous communities in Canada are proving more likely to contract COVID-19 and to fall seriously ill than other Canadians, reflecting economic and social disparities that afflict many Indigenous populations elsewhere in the world.
> 
> Last month in the central province of Manitoba, nearly half of all patients with COVID-19 in intensive care units were from First Nations communities, even though they make up about one-fifth of the region’s population.
> 
> Northern Manitoba communities, which reported virtually no cases of COVID-19 in the first wave of infections last year, now have the highest infection rates in the province.
> 
> On and off reserves, one in four members of Indigenous communities in Manitoba have tested positive for the disease stemming from the new coronavirus — double the rate for the province as a whole. Generally, epidemiologists consider a 5% positivity rate — the share of those tested who have the sickness — too high.
> 
> Indigenous populations in Canada face many of the vulnerabilities that place some individuals at a higher risk for contracting and even dying from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indigenous communities in Canada more vulnerable to COVID-19
> 
> 
> Overcrowding, a flow of migrants, lack of resources -- so many reasons Indigenous communities in Canada and elsewhere are vulnerable to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news-decoder.com


Gotcha.. So now its about stopping people from getting the sniffles?

Granted tho I do agree with  you on this.. I have family and friends that are indigenous.  All of them of course have fled the "reserves" just like my parents fled "socialist utopia" of eastern block. Not to many people know this but Reserves are no different then a communist country and the Indian Act should be a mandatory study of Institutional Racism.

Aboriginal communities have disproportional representation in my aspects of the "instutionalistic" Canadian public services.





__





						Obesity in Canada – Prevalence among aboriginal populations - Canada.ca
					

A joint report from the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canadian Institute for Health Information




					www.canada.ca
				












						Indigenous communities and diabetes
					

Members of Indigenous communities can be at a higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes. Know your risk and learn how to reduce risk and manage diabetes well.



					www.diabetes.ca
				




Oddly enough I find it funny that "cases" have been completely redefined from previous definitions of being hospitalized to our PCR test detected possible traces of corona virus in their system. Funny how no one actually pays Not attention to Hospitalization rates any more. Thank goodness the government is getting sued to find out the government numbers on this.

I wonder when we will ban candy bars because it may raise your sugar blood levels.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:


> I wonder when we will ban candy bars because it may raise your sugar blood levels.


My parents didn't allow candy because of the dental bills. 

But, I remember sitting in the backseat of the car, mom and dad up front smoking, with my kid sister on Mom's lap. I don't think we even had lap belts in the cars.


----------



## HiTechComms

mariomike said:


> My parents didn't allow candy because of the dental bills.
> 
> But, I remember sitting in the backseat of the car, mom and dad up front smoking, with my kid sister on Mom's lap. I don't think we even had lap belts in the cars.


Yeah. I grew up as a kid in these golden chariots.



			https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Trabant_601.jpg
		



__
		https://flic.kr/p/7Atcr9

Talk about safety


----------



## Brad Sallows

Tie an onion to your belt; it prevents bad things.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> I wonder when we will ban candy bars because it may raise your sugar blood levels.



Or, even worse in Canada, for violating decorum: 

Trudeau takes heat in House of Commons — for eating a chocolate bar​








						Trudeau takes heat in House of Commons — for eating a chocolate bar - National | Globalnews.ca
					

During one apparent attempt to stall, Conservative MP Scott Reid stood up and accused Trudeau of hiding a bagel – in violation of the Rules of Decorum of the House.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## HiTechComms

Brad Sallows said:


> Tie an onion to your belt; it prevents bad things.


Ironically.. I love onions. Costco has some Peruvian sweet onions. I can take one of these and eat it like an apple and I love it. I also like Garlic and use it in everything I cook.

Fun Eastern European Home Remedy.

Onion Syrup. You take an onion and slice it really thin and put in a Jar, while layering it you add sugar. For about a medium onion about 3 teaspoons of white granulated sugar. (Sweet or yellow onions are best)

Keep it in the fridge its good about for three days, it acts like a lozenge, I usually take it 3-5 times (when sick)a day of teaspoons of the Syrup that you get from the juices being pulled out.

I love it. The taste may be an acquired thing.

I have never been really ill as I try to take care of myself these days. 
There is a worse remedy I can share but it usually made me vomit


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> Yeah. I grew up as a kid in these golden chariots.


What city was that in?


----------



## HiTechComms

Jarnhamar said:


> What city was that in?


Don't want to dox myself but it was in Lower Silesia not to far from Hitler's Secret City and Majdanek. I am sure you can google that


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> They're more vulnerable,



According to who, exactly. “Experts” or politicians?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> According to who, exactly. “Experts” or politicians?



Based on that article I shared earlier, it would seem some health experts might have been involved:

"Indigenous populations in Canada face many of the vulnerabilities that place some individuals at a higher risk for contracting and even dying from COVID-19. Josée Lavoie, a professor with the Department of Community Health at the University of Manitoba and director of Ongomiizwin Research, used the risk profile of First Nations in Manitoba to conduct infectious disease modelling at the beginning of the pandemic to help predict how many ventilators hospitals would need.

To model their predictions, Lavoie and her team used the H1N1 virus, an influenza virus that struck the United States in 2009 and then spread around the world. “The conditions on reserves have not changed dramatically,” Lavoie said. “For example, only half of First Nations have access to safe water. We also know that overcrowding has not been addressed, nor has food insecurity, marginalization and racism.” The team predicted that the same conditions that promoted the spread of H1N1 would likely contribute to the transmision of COVID-19, even though they are very different viruses."

There's a bunch of other smart people out there who seem to have done their homework too, e.g., 

*COVID-19 and Indigenous peoples

“*We urge Member States and the international community to include the specific needs and priorities of indigenous peoples in addressing the global outbreak of COVID 19.*“*
—  Chair of the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, Anne Nuorgam.

The coronavirus  (COVID-19)  pandemic  poses  a grave  health threat to Indigenous peoples around the world. Indigenous communities already experience poor access to healthcare, significantly higher rates of communicable and non-communicable diseases, lack of access to essential services, sanitation,  and  other key  preventive measures, such as  clean water, soap, disinfectant, etc. Likewise,  most  nearby  local medical facilities, if and when there are any, are often under-equipped and under-staffed. Even when  Indigenous peoples are able to access healthcare services,  they can face stigma and  discrimination.  A key factor is to ensure these services and facilities are provided in indigenous languages, and as appropriate to the specific situation of Indigenous peoples.





__





						COVID-19 and Indigenous peoples | United Nations For Indigenous Peoples
					





					www.un.org


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:


> Tie an onion to your belt; it prevents bad things.


Or garlic around the neck?


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> Or garlic around the neck?


Cause...vampires you know. Don't invite a vampire in. Dracula on Netflix (5 or 6 part series) can explain it better than I.

Spiral.....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Interesting... top tip: better reinforce the recruiting centres 

The future of work after COVID-19​
We find that a markedly different mix of occupations may emerge after the pandemic across the eight economies. Compared to our pre-COVID-19 estimates, we expect the largest negative impact of the pandemic to fall on workers in food service and customer sales and service roles, as well as less-skilled office support roles. Jobs in warehousing and transportation may increase as a result of the growth in e-commerce and the delivery economy, but those increases are unlikely to offset the disruption of many low-wage jobs. In the United States, for instance, customer service and food service jobs could fall by 4.3 million, while transportation jobs could grow by nearly 800,000. Demand for workers in the healthcare and STEM occupations may grow more than before the pandemic, reflecting increased attention to health as populations age and incomes rise as well as the growing need for people who can create, deploy, and maintain new technologies (Exhibit 3).

Given the expected concentration of job growth in high-wage occupations and declines in low-wage occupations, the scale and nature of workforce transitions required in the years ahead will be challenging, according to our research.* Across the eight focus countries, more than 100 million workers, or 1 in 16, will need to find a different occupation by 2030 in our post-COVID-19 scenario*, as shown in Exhibit 4. This is 12 percent more than we estimated before the pandemic, and up to 25 percent more in advanced economies (Exhibit 4).









						The future of work after COVID-19
					

The COVID-19 pandemic accelerated existing future of work trends, with 25% more workers than previously estimated potentially needing to switch occupations.




					www.mckinsey.com


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> *Interesting... top tip: better reinforce the recruiting centres*
> 
> The future of work after COVID-19​
> We find that a markedly different mix of occupations may emerge after the pandemic across the eight economies. Compared to our pre-COVID-19 estimates, we expect the largest negative impact of the pandemic to fall on workers in food service and customer sales and service roles, as well as less-skilled office support roles. Jobs in warehousing and transportation may increase as a result of the growth in e-commerce and the delivery economy, but those increases are unlikely to offset the disruption of many low-wage jobs. In the United States, for instance, customer service and food service jobs could fall by 4.3 million, while transportation jobs could grow by nearly 800,000. Demand for workers in the healthcare and STEM occupations may grow more than before the pandemic, reflecting increased attention to health as populations age and incomes rise as well as the growing need for people who can create, deploy, and maintain new technologies (Exhibit 3).
> 
> Given the expected concentration of job growth in high-wage occupations and declines in low-wage occupations, the scale and nature of workforce transitions required in the years ahead will be challenging, according to our research.* Across the eight focus countries, more than 100 million workers, or 1 in 16, will need to find a different occupation by 2030 in our post-COVID-19 scenario*, as shown in Exhibit 4. This is 12 percent more than we estimated before the pandemic, and up to 25 percent more in advanced economies (Exhibit 4).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of work after COVID-19
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic accelerated existing future of work trends, with 25% more workers than previously estimated potentially needing to switch occupations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mckinsey.com


And we won't, because we are the CAF, and we _*know better. Sigh.*_


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Demand for workers in the healthcare and STEM occupations may grow more than before the pandemic, reflecting increased attention to health as populations age and incomes rise as well as the growing need for people who can create, deploy, and maintain new technologies (Exhibit 3).


The Baby Boomer generation is aging. As it does so, all of those 'boomers' become net consumers of health care, driving up demand for services. 

Simultaneously, all of those 'boomers' are reaching the end of their careers and retiring. Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, there is difficulty in recruiting suitably trained replacement staff, just as demand for medical services is increasing.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Interesting... top tip: better reinforce the recruiting centres



The CDS position is wide open, can you direct apply online for that trade?


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Interesting... top tip: better reinforce the recruiting centres
> 
> The future of work after COVID-19​
> We find that a markedly different mix of occupations may emerge after the pandemic across the eight economies. Compared to our pre-COVID-19 estimates, we expect the largest negative impact of the pandemic to fall on workers in food service and customer sales and service roles, as well as less-skilled office support roles. Jobs in warehousing and transportation may increase as a result of the growth in e-commerce and the delivery economy, but those increases are unlikely to offset the disruption of many low-wage jobs. In the United States, for instance, customer service and food service jobs could fall by 4.3 million, while transportation jobs could grow by nearly 800,000. Demand for workers in the healthcare and STEM occupations may grow more than before the pandemic, reflecting increased attention to health as populations age and incomes rise as well as the growing need for people who can create, deploy, and maintain new technologies (Exhibit 3).
> 
> Given the expected concentration of job growth in high-wage occupations and declines in low-wage occupations, the scale and nature of workforce transitions required in the years ahead will be challenging, according to our research.* Across the eight focus countries, more than 100 million workers, or 1 in 16, will need to find a different occupation by 2030 in our post-COVID-19 scenario*, as shown in Exhibit 4. This is 12 percent more than we estimated before the pandemic, and up to 25 percent more in advanced economies (Exhibit 4).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The future of work after COVID-19
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 pandemic accelerated existing future of work trends, with 25% more workers than previously estimated potentially needing to switch occupations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mckinsey.com


Between Covid spending, total lack of action on almost all mass employment projects, and a commercial real estate crash on the horizon.   Should be fun times ahead 😈😉

I am curious to see just how many companies renew their leases, after setting everybody up to work remotely - and having had them work remotely for more than a year.  

Company still functions, with significantly less overhead.  

Interesting & somewhat dangerous times economically ahead.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ontario COVID-19 quarantine screening officer charged with extortion, sexual assault​








						Ontario COVID-19 quarantine screening officer charged with extortion, sexual assault
					

A quarantine screening officer who allegedly demanded cash from a woman before sexually assaulting her at her home faces related charges, police said on Wednesday.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## HiTechComms

Jarnhamar said:


> Ontario COVID-19 quarantine screening officer charged with extortion, sexual assault​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario COVID-19 quarantine screening officer charged with extortion, sexual assault
> 
> 
> A quarantine screening officer who allegedly demanded cash from a woman before sexually assaulting her at her home faces related charges, police said on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


Trust the Gobernment!


----------



## HiTechComms

So I think I some how got the Covids.

Started with a Headache on Tuesday morning, felt a bit run down. Night time I had a bit of fever, Wednesday bigger headache, kidneys hurt, much more sever fever. Called covid hotline Thursday to get a test but my province is by appointment and they would contact me in 24 hours,. Friday no symptoms just a little tired. Today I feel great.

I socially distance, wear a mask and gloves, still got it. Unless it was not the covids but then again the government eliminated the "cold" and the "flu" this year so it has to be the covids.

Oh and the province never called me back, so no test.


----------



## mariomike

Get well soon.


----------



## PMedMoe

No cough? No sore throat?  Sounds more like a kidney or urinary tract infection.  JMHO.


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> No cough? No sore throat?  Sounds more like a kidney or urinary tract infection.  JMHO.


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> So I think I some how got the Covids.
> 
> Started with a Headache on Tuesday morning, felt a bit run down. Night time I had a bit of fever, Wednesday bigger headache, kidneys hurt, much more sever fever.


Did you bump into anyone carrying an umbrella?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Jarnhamar said:


> Did you bump into anyone carrying an umbrella?


I see what you did there...


----------



## Messerschmitt

Remember this 1 year ago? 








						Travel restrictions during outbreak needless and illegal, global law experts say
					

Global health law experts say dozens of countries -- including the United States and Australia -- are breaking international law by imposing travel restrictions during the novel coronavirus outbreak.



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## lenaitch

Messerschmitt said:


> Remember this 1 year ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Travel restrictions during outbreak needless and illegal, global law experts say
> 
> 
> Global health law experts say dozens of countries -- including the United States and Australia -- are breaking international law by imposing travel restrictions during the novel coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca



Sounds like somebody's not big on the authority of sovereign states.  Using the term "global governance" is a bit scary and will no doubt be enthusiastically quoted by conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

So, if this was a quarantine facility, was it the feds that contracted the security firms?


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> No cough? No sore throat?  Sounds more like a kidney or urinary tract infection.  JMHO.


Majority of people exposed to Covid virus have not symptoms or very light symptoms. 
As I have a functional immune system and have no comorbidity and not over the age of 65. I am part of the majority. Sick for about total of 3 days. 2 Days with headaches and 1 with a Fever.

Just learned a long time ago to listen to my body. Any time my lower back hurts feels like a very dull ache, its really kidneys doing work. They always ache when I am getting sick. , like an early warning system.

Also I don't live in Wainwright  So getting a Urinary track infection is highly unlikely, also for a male to get that infection is far less likely then covid.


----------



## PMedMoe

Well, I used to be a Med A.  But what do I know....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Vodka and cranberry juice.


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> Well, I used to be a Med A.  But what do I know....



Occam's Razor.. Covid or Urinary infection.  Any who I was "sick" for like 2 days. No big deal.  It could have been something else as well.

Doing diagnosis over the internet is what I would call about as effective as doing it over the phone.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Sad.... and scary

Extended pandemic feeding the anxieties of B.C.’s youth

Parents not sure what to do, urged to reach out for help

Lately, when 15-year-old K (name withheld to protect identity) arrives outside her school in Campbell River, nervousness sets in.

Her legs start shaking, her entire body begins to tremble and she gives way to uncontrollable sobbing.

Her parents eventually turn the car around and take her back home, to try again the next day.

The heightened anxiety attacks are new for both K and her parents, especially because their daughter is an above average student and has never had a problem going to school until a couple months ago, says K’s mother.

To add to the dilemma, new COVID-19 regulations require students to sit at one place for five hours with minimal interactions with their classmates and focus on one subject for five straight weeks. Missing one day of school leaves a student with a gap of five hours of math class, says K, and adding further to her anxiety.

While psychiatrists are seeing behavioural relapse in individuals who are on medications and were reasonably well controlled previously, they are also witnessing an increase in number of youths without previous diagnosis.

“It’s not just a pandemic of coronavirus in Campbell River, we have a pandemic of mental health exacerbation as well,” says Coetzee.

Wendy Richardson, executive director of the John Howard Society of North Vanouver Island said there is a spike in mental health issues among children as young as 11.

“Our mental health counselors have been working with kids with a lot of additional anxiety and suicide ideation,” she said and added, “It has been alarming… Suicide is high on our radar.”

“The reason I say it’s scary is because, historically, it’s not an age group where suicide ideation has been high on our list of things they are dealing with,” she said.


https://www.saanichnews.com/news/ex...TibtX1AGzt2hpxdz9pSG47so_NsVWTHMV2eq6yxyiGmfM


----------



## Messerschmitt

Texas is the first one
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...lude-rollback-of-texas-covid-19-restrictions/
I'll be watching those ICU stats


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Texas is the first one
> https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...lude-rollback-of-texas-covid-19-restrictions/
> I'll be watching those ICU stats


Mississippi too.


----------



## mariomike

.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:


> Saw D and B's post about the pandemic economy in another thread. Replying here to avoid a possible "derail".
> 
> Even as the pandemic raged on in February,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greater Toronto's Average House Price Passes $1 Million
> 
> 
> Things could heat up even more later this year, the real estate board says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.huffingtonpost.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TORONTO ― The Toronto Regional Real Estate Board says the housing market remained on fire in February with the average price surpassing $1 million for the first time.​
> “It’s also evident that the supply of listings is not keeping up with demand, which could present an even larger problem once population growth picks up following widespread vaccinations later this year and into 2022.”
> 
> Young people may want to start having families again.
> 
> ( Sorry for the bold type in some places. That's the computer, not me. )


In my hometown of Gibsons BC, property has gone up 35% in the past year. What plague?


----------



## mariomike

Kat Stevens said:


> In my hometown of Gibsons BC, property has gone up 35% in the past year. What plague?


"October 2009, the town was declared the "Most Liveable Community in the World" (under 20,000 population) at the international Livcom Awards."

Sounds like a great place to retire.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:


> "October 2009, the town was declared the "Most Liveable Community in the World" (under 20,000 population) at the international Livcom Awards."
> 
> Sounds like a great place to retire.


That was my plan. No longer a possibility.


----------



## HiTechComms

Yeah well inflation is a darned thing. People keep blaming the market for housing prices. Except for the fact the people that benefit from high housing prices are not capitalists but governments. Government dictate prices and the higher they are the more taxes they can harvest and this is doubly true for BC and name transfer tax. Rob Paul to pay Peter.


----------



## Quirky

You can still have a piece of land and a really nice new house build under $500k......if you don’t mind the prairies.


----------



## brihard

Ottawa has continued to spike like crazy too. We contracted a new build in January 2017, took delivery in October that year. The value of the house has gone up probably 35-40% in that time, it's absolutely unreal.

I wonder what's going to happen with Post Living Differential if Ottawa has been the baseline, but now this is happening?


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> "October 2009, the town was declared the "Most Liveable Community in the World" (under 20,000 population) at the international Livcom Awards."
> 
> Sounds like a great place to retire.



And it's the home port of the Beachcombers!  






						The Beachcombers
					

The Beachcombers is one of the most successful Canadian television series of all time. The half-hour family adventure show ran for 387 episodes over 18 seasons ...




					www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


----------



## blacktriangle

brihard said:


> Ottawa has continued to spike like crazy too. We contracted a new build in January 2017, took delivery in October that year. The value of the house has gone up probably 35-40% in that time, it's absolutely unreal.
> 
> I wonder what's going to happen with Post Living Differential if Ottawa has been the baseline, but now this is happening?


Yup, when I sold my last house in the NCR, I made just under 40%. Only owned the place a couple years. Feel bad for new people posted in...


----------



## Halifax Tar

I live in the Fairview neighborhood of Halifax.  Its not the best area, but it is steadily improving.  My wife is the VP in the neighborhood school and the dockyard is a short drive.  Anyways, Half a duplex directly across from my driveway went up for sale in asking 320K.  13 Offers in the first hour and sold for 502K. 😳

This city's housing market is exploding.  Nothing stays for sale for more than a couple days.  And sellers a listing their houses now to spur on bidding wars. 

My wife and I were going to sell but we figured we are close to being mortgage free, and we'd just spend another 4-500K on something else.  So we took a home equity LOC and are renovating instead.


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> My wife and I were going to sell but we figured we are close to being mortgage free, and we'd just spend another 4-500K on something else.  So we took a home equity LOC and are renovating instead.


Smart move, HT!  Amazing how many people do try the ‘out of the pan, into the fire’ housing flip in such times.  You’ll be much better off....just remember to prioritize renovations: kitchen > ensuite / bathrooms > laundry > open/functional space > pool... 😉


----------



## Halifax Tar

Good2Golf said:


> Smart move, HT!  Amazing how many people do try the ‘out of the pan, into the fire’ housing flip in such times.  You’ll be much better off....just remember to prioritize renovations: kitchen > ensuite / bathrooms > laundry > open/functional space > pool... 😉



We're doing small things now a little bit at a time.  We just converted from home heating to propane, re-did the living room, added a breakfast "nook"  (which is apparently a thing lol) to the kitchen... Next up is a new roof, detached garage and a second driveway. 

We aren't terribly concerned about the "Bathrooms and Kitchens" renos method/ideas.  Were staying here.  So were going to make it the house we want.  And I want a detached garage, damnit lol 

Its also a story and half, so there isn't much room to do anything on the top level outside of dormers or build up.  Which we don't really want.


----------



## PMedMoe

So much for trying to avoid a derail....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Halifax Tar said:


> I live in the Fairview neighborhood of Halifax.  Its not the best area, but it is steadily improving.  My wife is the VP in the neighborhood school and the dockyard is a short drive.  Anyways, Half a duplex directly across from my driveway went up for sale in asking 320K.  13 Offers in the first hour and sold for 502K. 😳
> 
> This city's housing market is exploding.  Nothing stays for sale for more than a couple days.  And sellers a listing their houses now to spur on bidding wars.
> *
> My wife and I were going to sell but we figured we are close to being mortgage free, and we'd just spend another 4-500K on something else.  So we took a home equity LOC and are renovating instead.*



The more I see some people in my network stress about money, usually as a result of vanity and a need to keep up with the Jones', the more I find untold value in being really happy with what I already have.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Back on covid please.
Bruce


----------



## OldSolduer

I'm getting the vaccine Monday. The powers that be figured out some of us are older than 60, working in a jail that houses COVID + inmates - and a number of our staff had to isolate etc in November/December. The effects are still being felt - OT is high.

And the powers that be want to hold sick time against the employees despite many of them being told to isolate.


----------



## dapaterson

Some modelling is predicting a third wave in Ontario.









						Enjoy it while it lasts. Modelling warns another mass lockdown may be needed to control Ontario’s looming third wave
					

In the worst-case scenario, Ontario could see as many as 5,000 cases per day by early April, mostly made up of new variants, according to a company specializing in disease forecasting.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## HiTechComms

dapaterson said:


> Some modelling is predicting a third wave in Ontario.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy it while it lasts. Modelling warns another mass lockdown may be needed to control Ontario’s looming third wave
> 
> 
> In the worst-case scenario, Ontario could see as many as 5,000 cases per day by early April, mostly made up of new variants, according to a company specializing in disease forecasting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com


What about the 4th wave and the 5th wave. We are celebrating 1 year of 14 days of flattening the curve. Find it funny how people don't understand the basic math of "curves" and what flattening would mean. USA is opening and we are closing more oh well the government will print more money. Money Printer will go BRRRR for ever.

Funny how Cases are now people that test positive and not hospitalized.  This was the previous definition of cases. The goal posts have been moved so far that they are playing a different game. We had more overdose deaths in BC then Covid and government did squat about opiod for years.. Does any one believe any of this fear mongering stuff any more?

On another note.
I wonder when I can start demanding a full PPE suit from the government because I might catch the sniffles. Oh wait, I did for 2 days.


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> What about the 4th wave and the 5th wave. We are celebrating 1 year of 14 days of flattening the curve. Find it funny how people don't understand the basic math of "curves" and what flattening would mean. USA is opening and we are closing more oh well the government will print more money. Money Printer will go BRRRR for ever.
> 
> Funny how Cases are now people that test positive and not hospitalized.  This was the previous definition of cases. The goal posts have been moved so far that they are playing a different game. We had more overdose deaths in BC then Covid and government did squat about opiod for years.. Does any one believe any of this fear mongering stuff any more?
> 
> On another note.
> I wonder when I can start demanding a full PPE suit from the government because I might catch the sniffles. Oh wait, I did for 2 days.



Or, alternatively, we as a society did what was asked of us, and it worked. We ate a big shit sandwich but saved the ICUs. We appear to have one more lap to run as vaccines race more infectious variants, but hopefully that’s the last of it.

I get it that you don’t really care if my parents catch it and die, or if my friends working in the hospitals completely burn out, good for you. Ultimately, you’re casting snide derision at public health modeling and advice that was ultimately fairly in line with reality.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Or, alternatively, we as a society did what was asked of us, and it worked. We ate a big shit sandwich but saved the ICUs. We appear to have one more lap to run as vaccines race more infectious variants, but hopefully that’s the last of it.
> 
> I get it that you don’t really care if my parents catch it and die, or if my friends working in the hospitals completely burn out, good for you. Ultimately, you’re casting snide derision at public health modeling and advice that was ultimately fairly in line with reality.


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> or if my friends working in the hospitals completely burn out,



I keep hearing this everywhere. Who exactly thinks that choosing a career in healthcare will be smooth sailing and stress free? That’s like someone who becomes a pilot knowing they hate flying through turbulence. It’s going to happen. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> What about the 4th wave and the 5th wave. We are celebrating 1 year of 14 days of flattening the curve. Find it funny how people don't understand the basic math of "curves" and what flattening would mean. USA is opening and we are closing more oh well the government will print more money. Money Printer will go BRRRR for ever.
> 
> Funny how Cases are now people that test positive and not hospitalized.  This was the previous definition of cases. The goal posts have been moved so far that they are playing a different game. We had more overdose deaths in BC then Covid and government did squat about opiod for years.. Does any one believe any of this fear mongering stuff any more?
> 
> On another note.
> I wonder when I can start demanding a full PPE suit from the government because I might catch the sniffles. Oh wait, I did for 2 days.


You may find common cause with this doctor then:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/college-cautions-doctor-tweets-1.5936538
		


And now she is apparently suing her detractors, including the OMA, to the tune of $6.8Mn for sullying her reputation:









						Doctor who said Canada doesn't need COVID vaccine calls online critics 'hyenas' in $6.8M libel suit
					

The legal action targets tweets that began after Gill wrote that society has existing COVID defences in the form of 'the Truth … T-cell immunity ……




					nationalpost.com
				




She has a lawyer with a fun history.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> I keep hearing this everywhere. Who exactly thinks that choosing a career in healthcare will be smooth sailing and stress free? That’s like someone who becomes a pilot knowing they hate flying through turbulence. It’s going to happen. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.


What are you going on about? I doubt anyone signed up for ‘smooth sailing and stress free’. But neither did anyone anticipate a year under pandemic conditions, dealing with the worst of it (in stifling PPE) all day at work, badly under resourced, and then having to deal with all the same lockdown and isolation crap as the rest of us.

The front line healthcare workers and personal support workers in long term care homes have borne the absolute worst of this. My hat is off to them. You might want to humble up a bit and be grateful you haven’t spent the past year in the conditions they have.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Hey, I'm sure hiding out at home and still getting full pay took a toll on him also....


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> Or, alternatively, we as a society did what was asked of us, and it worked. We ate a big shit sandwich but saved the ICUs. We appear to have one more lap to run as vaccines race more infectious variants, but hopefully that’s the last of it.
> 
> I get it that you don’t really care if my parents catch it and die, or if my friends working in the hospitals completely burn out, good for you. Ultimately, you’re casting snide derision at public health modeling and advice that was ultimately fairly in line with reality.


You are right I don't care about certain people or things. 

I already had family member die during this time. I couldn't see them I was restricted in my movements. 

Do I care about these supposed health care workers.. No. Sorry. Its their Job they chose that job. 
How many of them danced around on Tik Tok like morons. I went to a hospital and guess WHAT IT WAS EMPTY. Now they are complaining they are over worked. Yeah no crap sherlock, you have cancelled normal operations to save for Covid response but there were never enough cases to keep them busy now all the work is flooding back in and they are "overworked".

If you have a problem with being overworked then QUIT. Sorry as long as I am a tax payer and paying your wages you have given up your rights to be offended.  To put in parallel CAF doesn't shut down operations because some one might get hurt or die, you give up your rights when you sign on the dotted line. Do your Job and shut up, its a free country and quit if you don't like it. Suck it up butter cup because we are supposedly all in this together right?

No they stripped rights of all individuals and healthy ones that never had a risk. They should have just locked down the LTC. I am sorry but these people are at the end of their life. Average stay at a LTC is 3 years, so now we also stripped these people and human contact by a year. I will not get to take back time and I will not see my loved ones as THEY ARE DEAD.

The government doesn't exist to protect me from myself.  

So much pearl clutching.


----------



## Good2Golf

HiTechComms said:


> You are right I don't care about certain people or things.
> 
> I already had family member die during this time. I couldn't see them I was restricted in my movements.
> 
> Do I care about these supposed health care workers.. No. Sorry. Its their Job they chose that job.
> How many of them danced around on Tik Tok like morons. I went to a hospital and guess WHAT IT WAS EMPTY. Now they are complaining they are over worked. Yeah no crap sherlock, you have cancelled normal operations to save for Covid response but there were never enough cases to keep them busy now all the work is flooding back in and they are "overworked".
> 
> If you have a problem with being overworked then QUIT. Sorry as long as I am a tax payer and paying your wages you have given up your rights to be offended.  To put in parallel CAF doesn't shut down operations because some one might get hurt or die, you give up your rights when you sign on the dotted line. Do your Job and shut up, its a free country and quit if you don't like it. Suck it up butter cup because we are supposedly all in this together right?
> 
> No they stripped rights of all individuals and healthy ones that never had a risk. They should have just locked down the LTC. I am sorry but these people are at the end of their life. Average stay at a LTC is 3 years, so now we also stripped these people and human contact by a year. I will not get to take back time and I will not see my loved ones as THEY ARE DEAD.
> 
> The government doesn't exist to protect me from myself.
> 
> So much pearl clutching.



Sure...we get it.  Private-sector code-monkeys are the only ones who deserve respect.


----------



## Pelorus

HiTechComms said:


> Do I care about these supposed health care workers.. No. Sorry. Its their Job they chose that job.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you have a problem with being overworked then QUIT.



This might come as a surprise to those who only consider people valuable insofar as their ability to generate easily-measurable productivity (aka profit, as defined by MBA-holding executives or their disciples), but most of the health care workers I personally know in Canada are at least moderately jaded, and yet stick around due in part to a desire to serve others, or at the very least to some extent in an attempt to improve the system from within. Additionally, most of those I know who have given up on the latter point and just punch the clock in their current role have done so not because they wanted to stop caring, but because the bureaucracy of their organization is rigid enough that they think their individual contributions are meaningless or unheard despite their best efforts.

Based on my time in, I would say that this also applies to a significant number of CAF pers with more than a few years of experience (and likely also a great number of other operationally-minded public servants). By the 10+ year mark, many of us have gained enough qualifications and/or experience to be competitive for good jobs in both the private and public sectors. And yet, we stick around this oft-dysfunctional machine we call the CAF because at some level we believe in the best parts of the organization, even if they are regularly overshadow by its ugly parts.

Does that make us idiots for buying the corporate/party line? Quite possibly, but I would offer that if the real talent in the Public Service (Federally, Provincially, and Municipally) was exclusively staffed by profit-minded, ready-to-jump-ship-at-a-moment's-notice individuals who followed the money, that the average Canadian who benefits from these services would be significantly impacted.

I suppose that this is a small part of a much greater and beaten to death discussion on the philosophy of Libertarianism, but we are seeing these arguments rear their head more strongly due to COVID.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I saw my first guy refuse to wear a mask going before me into a Shoppers Drugmart ... He simply refused and went on his way shopping.  The guard hired to man the door just moved out of his way...

I think we over reacted on this whole thing.  But I may not be getting the whole picture as the NS Liberal Gov has been our savior out here and to be honest other than wearing a mask and social distancing in a line I haven't noticed a difference...


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> To put in parallel CAF doesn't shut down operations because some one might get hurt or die, you give up your rights when you sign on the dotted line.


We stopped hearing a whistle and walking towards machine fire some time ago. 

We also didn't give up our rights. Where on earth did you hear that? We have lots of rules in place to prevent or mitigate people from getting hurt and can face strict penalties if we ignore them.


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> You might want to humble up a bit and be grateful you haven’t spent the past year in the conditions they have.



Grateful that I didn’t want a career in healthcare? That makes no sense. They chose their careers along with all the pandemics that go with them. I thank them for doing their jobs. Just like I thank grocery store workers and truck drivers for doing theirs. Everyone has had an important role this past year, one job isn’t more important than another.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Grateful that I didn’t want a career in healthcare? That makes no sense. They chose their careers along with all the pandemics that go with them. I thank them for doing their jobs. Just like I thank grocery store workers and truck drivers for doing theirs. Everyone has had an important role this past year, one job isn’t more important than another.


That’s simply incorrect. Some jobs, individually or collectively, absolutely ARE more important than others in a time of crisis. Some work much harder, some face much greater risks than others. Some are much more involved in the preservation of life or health. Some are run much more ragged, some are in much shorter supply and harder to replace.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> That’s simply incorrect. Some jobs, individually or collectively, absolutely ARE more important than others in a time of crisis. Some work much harder, some face much greater risks than others. Some are much more involved in the preservation of life or health. Some are run much more ragged, some are in much shorter supply and harder to replace.



Which is why the Infantry gets paid more, right?


----------



## lenaitch

I have a hard time accepting that the grocery store clerk, who has to wear a mask, work behind plexi, do extra cleaning, etc. is on the same plane as a health care worker who has faced the stress, hours and constant risk of the pandemic.  I would imagine many if not most haven't had a vacation in over a year and some, particularly those in LTC facilities, weren't even able to interact with their families during an outbreak.

It fair to say all jobs have value, otherwise people wouldn't pay them to to them, but say they are all equally important is a bit of a stretch.  My father-in-law used to be a surgeon, and once said that he couldn't have done his job if the hospital cleaner didn't do his, but they are not equal in skills, training, risk, outcomes, etc.

It's a tad disingenuous to say that somebody knew all the conditions and risks inherent with their jobs and should just suck it up.  Are you saying that all the members suffering from mental issues, PTSD, etc. arising from combat deployment accepted the risks so to-bad-so-sad?  In terms of health care workers, it would have pretty hard for them to foresee a pandemic of this scale that hasn't occurred in over a century.


----------



## mariomike

We knew the risks when we hired on.

SARS is the example I am familiar with. Of our 800 city paramedics, we had 1,166 potential SARS exposures; 436 were placed in a 10-day home quarantine, which meant being isolated from those persons within the home, continuously wearing an N95 respirator, and taking their temperatures twice a day. SARS-like illnesses developed in 62 paramedics, and suspected or probable SARS requiring hospitalization in ICU developed in 4 others. On March 26, 2003, almost all of the frontline staff of the city’s northeast quadrant was sent home because of possible SARS exposure at a Toronto hospital . On May 22, when the outbreak’s second phase began, >200 paramedics had contact with patients with SARS and were quarantined.

I also know the only thing kept the city paramedic system from falling apart was because over 400 of us were put on 24/7 "working quarantine'.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Worth of the individual career choice is relative. To the 100's of people per day that use my wife's checkout station at the supermarket, she's indispensable, respected and thanked for doing her job this whole time. No, she's not skilled as a nurse, nor does she make anywhere near the money. 5 days a week @ < $400/ week. But she's  there every day, never missed a one. She gets stressed, deals with infected peopleTo her customers, she's essential service. While her job doesn't  match that of a nurse, in my mind her job is just as important during this period of time as any other. Orchestras work because everyone is skilled at different instruments. Yet there are 1st, 2nd and third fiddles. The orchestra can function without all its players, but it's not that good is it? It's much better when everyone plays their own instrument, but are on the same sheet.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> That’s simply incorrect. Some jobs, individually or collectively, absolutely ARE more important than others in a time of crisis. Some work much harder, some face much greater risks than others. Some are much more involved in the preservation of life or health. Some are run much more ragged, some are in much shorter supply and harder to replace.


Perhaps why some jobs, even though unionized, do not have, and do not seek, the right to strike.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

So I'll step in to play devil's advocate.....

1.  By now I assume most are familiar with the issue of "false positives" being generated in PCR tests due to running too many amplification cycles as this has been mentioned now by WHO, Fauci and Florida is now mandating that the cycle count is posted for transparency purposes.  If it is true that the PCR test, running at too many cycles, is providing a large percentage of false positives in healthy, asymptomatic people, is it not highly likely given the preponderance of "COVID deaths" in people with multiple co-morbidities, that many of these are false positives as well?  If viral remnants were identified at 40 cycles in someone who had a massive stroke, should that really be counted as "COVID death"?  And bigger picture, if adjusted to correct for this issue, how would that affect the "actual" COVID fatality rate that is being promoted in press releases?
2.  As of today, the CEO of Pfizer has not been "fully" vaccinated, and actually cancelled an important business trip to Israel because he chose not to have the second dose.  His explanation was that he didn't want to "jump the cue".  To anyone else, does that not pass the proverbial smell test?  If he is choosing to avoid a second dose, why?  
3.  In that same article, he is asked about the second dose's ability to halt infection and transmission (which for those that are unaware was never part of the "measure of efficacy" that any of the pharmaceutical companies used in their Emergency Use Authorization requests), to which he replied that they are awaiting that information.  So if the vaccines provide neither protection from infection or transmission, what is the rationale for issuance of "vaccine passports"?
4.  Lastly, given the statistically insignificant risk of COVID to those under 70 without comorbidities, to each of you, how many deaths directly related to vaccine reactions are acceptable?  Canada's new vaccine injury tracking insurance program (which gives the manufacturers a total liability shield) is not yet active, but the US Stats are available through the OpenVaers website below.  After looking yourselves, regardless of whether the numbers are higher or lower than your expectations, would anyone here argue that such data (especially as all these vaccines are not really fully approved and in fact are in EUA Stage Three Trials), should not be part of the informed consent process  before you make a decision for yourself or your children?  And if you agree that would be common sense, why is that disclosure not standard?

Link 1 re: Pfizer CEO








						Pfizer CEO's Israel visit canceled because he is not fully vaccinated
					

Bourla said in December that he has not yet received the vaccine yet because he does not want to "cut in line."




					m.jpost.com
				




Link 2 re: US COVID Vaccine Injury Stats:
https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data 

For the record, I'm not claiming I have all the answers about this issue as it's very complicated....but I'm doing my damnedest to try to ask the right questions so I know as much as I can.  Best wishes to all on your own journeys with this, as none of it is simple.


----------



## daftandbarmy

When in doubt, blame the consultants 

COVID-19: B.C. health minister faults Telus for vaccination booking chaos​
VICTORIA — Vancouver Coastal Health’s vaccination booking system was so disastrous on Monday and early Tuesday that the Liberals called it a “fiasco”, the health minister faulted Telus for failing British Columbians, and the head of the province’s immunization plan offered to put on a headset and help overstretched call takers.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...lus-for-vaccination-booking-chaos/ar-BB1epKBK


----------



## Messerschmitt

Some interesting reads









						Sweden has avoided a COVID-19 lockdown so far: Has its strategy worked?
					

Sweden has drawn both international praise and criticism for its decision to stay open during the pandemic. ABC News looks at how their strategy has played out.




					abcnews.go.com
				






			Swedish expert fears COVID-19 risks traumatizing an entire generation: report - Xinhua | English.news.cn


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> When in doubt, blame the consultants
> 
> COVID-19: B.C. health minister faults Telus for vaccination booking chaos​
> VICTORIA — Vancouver Coastal Health’s vaccination booking system was so disastrous on Monday and early Tuesday that the Liberals called it a “fiasco”, the health minister faulted Telus for failing British Columbians, and the head of the province’s immunization plan offered to put on a headset and help overstretched call takers.
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...lus-for-vaccination-booking-chaos/ar-BB1epKBK


As someone who truly hates Telus, I'll jump on the bandwagon & blindly blame them!!  Even if I'm wrong, and Telus isn't to blame - Telus, it's still your fault.  (PS - I hate you.)  (PPS - other than hating Telus, most of my comment was sarcasm)

I think a few posters posted upthread that the idea of a online booking system was bound to be a disaster.  Long wait times, down for maintenance, failure of information to properly get to the vaccination centers, etc etc - I think a lot of the issues were bound to happen, regardless of whatever tech provider provided the platform.




Get the seniors in LTC's done - check (mostly)

Distribute the rest to pharmacies, and just have folks show their ID to prove their age while needed.  (For example, just to show they are 65yo or older while only that demographic is eligable, etc, etc.)   Keep it simple.  

Alberta just announced that folks who hit the target demographic of 65yo or older, can start getting their vaccines at Shoppers Drug Mart starting next week.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Messerschmitt said:


> Some interesting reads
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden has avoided a COVID-19 lockdown so far: Has its strategy worked?
> 
> 
> Sweden has drawn both international praise and criticism for its decision to stay open during the pandemic. ABC News looks at how their strategy has played out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swedish expert fears COVID-19 risks traumatizing an entire generation: report - Xinhua | English.news.cn



It would be interesting to look at a comparison of "non-nursing home death rates" to see what the difference would be with/without lockdowns on the low-risk majority of the population.  In short, was it worthwhile locking down the healthy population?  Or should we have focused on specific measures for the high risk groups?


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Just on the subject of "Why wasn't more done in nursing homes?", the answer in Ontario appears to be that the same combination of health bureaucrats and politicians that are currently making decisions on our behalf, determined it just wasn't worth the money.  









						Proposals to protect Ontario LTC residents were rejected as 'too expensive,' docs say
					

A commission examining the impact of COVID-19 on Ontario's long-term care system has heard the government rejected proposals that could have helped protect vulnerable residents during the second wave because they were deemed too expensive.




					beta.cp24.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

Look out for those Russians 

Vaccine rollout: Are military leaders the right people for this job?​According to the experts, yes, there really is no one better when it comes to tricky logistical issues than military types

“That’s partly why the Canadian government has us as an insurance policy, we’re here to protect and defend the country, and when we are called upon, it’s generally something that we’re not allowed to fail at,” says John Page, national president of the Canadian Forces Logistics Association, now retired after 40 years in uniform as a logistician. “If there is a forest fire, an ice storm, a whole bunch of Russian hordes come over the hill, we have to be able to deal with it in a calm, rational and _effective_ manner, to be able to do the best we can with the resources we have.”

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada...litary-leaders-the-right-people-for-this-job/


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Look out for those Russians
> 
> Vaccine rollout: Are military leaders the right people for this job?​According to the experts, yes, there really is no one better when it comes to tricky logistical issues than military types
> 
> “That’s partly why the Canadian government has us as an insurance policy, we’re here to protect and defend the country, and when we are called upon, it’s generally something that we’re not allowed to fail at,” says John Page, national president of the Canadian Forces Logistics Association, now retired after 40 years in uniform as a logistician. “If there is a forest fire, an ice storm, a whole bunch of Russian hordes come over the hill, we have to be able to deal with it in a calm, rational and _effective_ manner, to be able to do the best we can with the resources we have.”
> 
> https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada...litary-leaders-the-right-people-for-this-job/


And why we were called upon to host the Kosovo refugees in 1999. No other GoC dept had the planning, sp, log, and infrastructure at hand to deliver this.


----------



## brihard

Surprising and nice to see CAF in Maclean’s for something positive.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

brihard said:


> Surprising and nice to see CAF in Maclean’s for something positive.


Not only positive,  but factually correct and put into terms the average, non-military reader can comprehend. Well done!


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:


> According to the experts, yes, there really is no one better when it comes to tricky logistical issues than military types



If military types are the go-to guys for logistical problems, why are there so many complaints on these means about boots, uniforms, spare parts, etc . . .  or do they only switch on under stress, the routine logistical requirements being too mundane to catch their notice.

And as for the "experts", all the ones identified in the article touting the stupendousness of military logistics are either serving or retired military.


----------



## brihard

Blackadder1916 said:


> If military types are the go-to guys for logistical problems, why are there so many complaints on these means about boots, uniforms, spare parts, etc . . .  or do they only switch on under stress, the routine logistical requirements being too mundane to catch their notice.
> 
> And as for the "experts", all the ones identified in the article touting the stupendousness of military logistics are either serving or retired military.


You may be getting befuddled by procurement, which is not entirely within CAF’s control.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Blackadder1916 said:


> If military types are the go-to guys for logistical problems, why are there so many complaints on these means about boots, uniforms, spare parts, etc . . .  or do they only switch on under stress, the routine logistical requirements being too mundane to catch their notice.
> 
> And as for the "experts", all the ones identified in the article touting the stupendousness of military logistics are either serving or retired military.


Generally speaking, whenever I have been on operations or a deployment CAF logistics have been uniformly excellent- to the point where you hardly notice it (I acknowledge the seacan shitshow, both in and out of Afghanistan).


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:


> And why we were called upon to host the Kosovo refugees in 1999. No other GoC dept had the planning, sp, log, and infrastructure at hand to deliver this.


And the flood in Manitoba in 1997, forest fires in BC in 2003 I think.


----------



## MJP

Blackadder1916 said:


> If military types are the go-to guys for logistical problems, why are there so many complaints on these means about boots, uniforms, spare parts, etc . . .  or do they only switch on under stress, the routine logistical requirements being too mundane to catch their notice.
> 
> And as for the "experts", all the ones identified in the article touting the stupendousness of military logistics are either serving or retired military.


Some of the highlights have been touched on by others but we are generally good at logistics which is getting stuff where it is needed when it needs to be there. Some of that is in our structures that have redundancies at each level to catch issues but also make things happen when it needs to happen. Adding to this is our ability to ignore efficiency and be effective by leveraging resources (strat and tactical lift and work hours for example) in ways that would other orgs can't. Mix in strong ability to plan and manage operations and we end up being decent at direct focus operations like the vaccine roll out.

Some of the issues you mention can be attributed to bad supply chain management which is the more about processes and relationships between the various aspects of the Supply chain


----------



## rmc_wannabe

OldSolduer said:


> And the flood in Manitoba in 1997, forest fires in BC in 2003 I think.


And relocating Syrian refugees in 2015


----------



## daftandbarmy

MJP said:


> Some of the highlights have been touched on by others but we are generally good at logistics which is getting stuff where it is needed when it needs to be there. Some of that is in our structures that have redundancies at each level to catch issues but also make things happen when it needs to happen. Adding to this is our ability to ignore efficiency and be effective by leveraging resources (strat and tactical lift and work hours for example) in ways that would other orgs can't. Mix in strong ability to plan and manage operations and we end up being decent at direct focus operations like the vaccine roll out.
> 
> Some of the issues you mention can be attributed to bad supply chain management which is the more about processes and relationships between the various aspects of the Supply chain



If you look at the difference between the Defence budget and the Health budget, and the numbers of people involved, I'd consider the move to bring in the CAF an admission that the Canada Health Plan has failed its most important test ever.


----------



## MJP

daftandbarmy said:


> If you look at the difference between the Defence budget and the Health budget, and the numbers of people involved, I'd consider the move to bring in the CAF an admission that the Canada Health Plan has failed its most important test ever.


Health dollars are given to provinces and don't have the purview to set up logistical links and ability across provinces to deliver an effect. With those dollars.  The CAF has that mandate ave more importantly in my opinion people with the ability to plan it

I think merely pointing to dollars in a budget ignores the different mandates of those dollars.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile the economy, and those businesses that will help pay all the bills, need a shot in the arm too:

The Canada-U.S. border's been shut down for a year — and there's no reopening plan​
Some members of one critical Canadian industry — the auto sector — are growing impatient.

They say Canada's industry risks damaging itself at a critical moment, as parts companies across the continent compete to obtain contracts during the shift to new supply chains in the updated NAFTA, and the evolution to electric vehicles.

One auto-parts company chairman, Rob Wildeboer of Martinrea International, said it's actually getting harder now to cross the border than it was early in the pandemic. 

He said some executives or technicians get sent into quarantine when they enter Canada, and some don't, and that sometimes the rules are applied differently on the same day at the same border crossing.  



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canada-border-restriction-reopening-1.5948695?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_251139


----------



## lenaitch

Rick Hillier leaving Ontario vaccine roll-out project at the end of March:









						'I think I am going to put a ball and a chain around his ankle to keep him:' Hillier set to depart March 31
					

The retired military general who was chosen to lead Ontario’s vaccine rollout will complete his duties at the end of the month, leaving the job vacant as million of residents still wait for their turn to roll up their sleeves.




					www.cp24.com


----------



## PMedMoe

lenaitch said:


> Rick Hillier leaving Ontario vaccine roll-out project at the end of March:



Great.  Just great.


----------



## brihard

Although he frames it in terms of “I did what I came here to do and can now hand it off”, it sorta sounds more like “eff this, I’m out”.


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> If you look at the difference between the Defence budget and the Health budget, and the numbers of people involved, I'd consider the move to bring in the CAF an admission that the Canada Health Plan has failed its most important test ever.


Part of the issue -my opinion only- is that medical professionals don't often deal in logistical issues in depth. Yes the doctor can tell you how many shots of the vaccine you need but can't arrange shipping, storage etc.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldSolduer said:


> Part of the issue -my opinion only- is that medical professionals don't often deal in logistical issues in depth. Yes the doctor can tell you how many shots of the vaccine you need but can't arrange shipping, storage etc.



Bejillions of dollars are spent on just those things every year. The Health Care system is unimaginably vast and capable.

My guess is that they handed it off to the Army for 'confidence building during an emergency' reasons.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Cdn Blackshirt said:


> Just on the subject of "Why wasn't more done in nursing homes?", the answer in Ontario appears to be that the same combination of health bureaucrats and politicians that are currently making decisions on our behalf, determined it just wasn't worth the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proposals to protect Ontario LTC residents were rejected as 'too expensive,' docs say
> 
> 
> A commission examining the impact of COVID-19 on Ontario's long-term care system has heard the government rejected proposals that could have helped protect vulnerable residents during the second wave because they were deemed too expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beta.cp24.com


Yes, cause we definitely saved a lot of money with all the useless lockdowns when all we needed to concentrate on was nursing homes and just put in protocols for everybody else (keep distance, wear masks) but leave everything open like the swedes did.

I find it interesting when I'm looking on google stats how states in the US that went full lockdown (California, NY) have pretty much the same cases/deaths per 1mil compared to states who were a lot more lax (Texas, Florida)

1 year into this and we don't have a test that's reliable and gives results in minutes. Yet we use PCR that according to WHO it's not even suppose to be a diagnosis tool, 9 months after according to their Jan publication.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Although he frames it in terms of “I did what I came here to do and can now hand it off”, it sorta sounds more like “eff this, I’m out”.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Pfizer exec sees 'significant opportunity' to increase COVID vaccine price for annual booster shot
					

The exec. has previously noted current vaccine cost is unrepresentative of the company's pricing model




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## CBH99

lenaitch said:


> Rick Hillier leaving Ontario vaccine roll-out project at the end of March:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'I think I am going to put a ball and a chain around his ankle to keep him:' Hillier set to depart March 31
> 
> 
> The retired military general who was chosen to lead Ontario’s vaccine rollout will complete his duties at the end of the month, leaving the job vacant as million of residents still wait for their turn to roll up their sleeves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cp24.com


Maybe he's done all that he can do?

The prioritization and schedule of vaccinations based on age and need.  Vaccines ordered, and distributed to vaccination centers.  A booking system so people can make their appointments.  And moving forwards, a tentative schedule as to when future demographics will be allowed to get vaccinated.

While there may be some more stick handling required, maybe the thrust of what needed to be done is either done now or properly planned for/scheduled?


----------



## CBH99

Messerschmitt said:


> Pfizer exec sees 'significant opportunity' to increase COVID vaccine price for annual booster shot
> 
> 
> The exec. has previously noted current vaccine cost is unrepresentative of the company's pricing model
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawacitizen.com


I don't have a lot of familiarity with investing in the stock market, I'm actively trying to research and learn a lot these days though.

To my simple mind, is this a good hint that investing in Pfizer would be wise?  That's quite the price jump from $19.00-ish to $150-ish.


Anybody more investment savvy than I am have any insight on what the above article means, or doesn't mean, in terms of a potential investment opportunity?


----------



## Rick Goebel

Today I read a Calgary Herald article (‘I started to think this was a conspiracy.' Then she caught the virus, and everything changed) advocating for Covid precautions which had a High River MD saying “People who are frustrated enough to flout public health measures are trying to make a point, says High River physician Dr. Adam Vyse, and it’s understandable. He says many people come to these conclusions because they don’t know anyone who is infected, while at the same time are facing disruptions in their lives because of harsh and varied restrictions.” I had long thought this myself.

Yesterday, the CBC had reported at https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...a-3rd-wave-of-covid-19-hinshaw-says-1.5954874 that Dr Deena Hinshaw, Alberta Chief Medical Officer of Health had said something similar. “The reality is that it is this very fact of most people having mild symptoms that makes COVID-19 so dangerous for our communities," she said, noting that people who aren't showing symptoms pass it to friends and families, who then pass it on to others. If COVID-19 made most people who caught it extremely sick, this would make it much less likely to spread," she said.” While she was emphasizing asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic people passing the disease along, the fact that few people see sick people remains.

I decided to look into this a little more.

Alberta has, in just over a year, seen 140,823 cases of Covid in our population of 4.371,000 or about 1 in 31 Albertans (assuming 1 case per person). Some of these would have been, as Dr Hinshaw pointed out, asymptomatic people who tested positive. Others will have had just mild symptoms. Some will have been quite sick. To date, 6,286 people in Alberta have been sick enough with Covid to be admitted to hospital, about 1 in 695 Albertans. Of course, some who have had Covid have died of it. So far, a total of 1,957 people have died of Covid in Alberta, about 1 in 2,233. Source for the above numbers is the Alberta Health Services Covid Statistics page at https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm.

The US CDC (1918 Pandemic (H1N1 virus)  | Pandemic Influenza (Flu) | CDC) says “It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide”

I suspect that if Covid was infecting 1,457,000 Albertans and killing 145,700, everyone would be aware of the dangers and there would be no issue of non-compliance.


----------



## mariomike

Rick Goebel said:


> I decided to look into this a little more.


It would be interesting to know if Covid deaths are undercounted. 






						Staggering Surge Of NYers Dying In Their Homes Suggests City Is Undercounting Coronavirus Fatalities - Gothamist
					

Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.




					gothamist.com


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> I keep hearing this everywhere. Who exactly thinks that choosing a career in healthcare will be smooth sailing and stress free? That’s like someone who becomes a pilot knowing they hate flying through turbulence. It’s going to happen. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.


When the kitchen is empty because of that sort of attitude you won’t be too happy when you need something from the pantry.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> When the kitchen is empty



This overpopulated planet could use an empty kitchen every now and then. Ever watch the purge?


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Who exactly thinks that choosing a career in healthcare will be smooth sailing and stress free?


Reminds me of a movie I went to years ago, "I don't have to tell you people times are tough. You read the papers! The country is going to hell! Now you take inflation, recession, welfare, there's nothing we can do about that. But thanks to muggings, malnutrition, assassination and disease, we got a chance to make a buck!"  

The Ontario Sunshine List was released yesterday. Covid seems to have had a positive impact on the earnings of some health care workers. I recall that , financially, SARS was the best year of my career.

NOT to suggest any health care worker would enjoy pandemic working conditions.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:


> I don't have a lot of familiarity with investing in the stock market, I'm actively trying to research and learn a lot these days though.
> 
> To my simple mind, is this a good hint that investing in Pfizer would be wise?  That's quite the price jump from $19.00-ish to $150-ish.
> 
> 
> Anybody more investment savvy than I am have any insight on what the above article means, or doesn't mean, in terms of a potential investment opportunity?



Sounds like Pfizer wishes for another Viagra windfall, but just because it may add another product line doesn't necessarily translate to a jump in its stock price or dividends.  Or, perhaps the intent of such comments from its CFO may be to bump up its stock price which (_according to some of the reports I've read - and I'm far from an expert or even following closely_) has been underperforming over the last couple of years.  While it's still one of the major players in the pharmaceutical sector, it was being held back because a lot of their lines were legacy items - monsters that dominated when the company held active patents but now that those particular drugs can be produced as generics, Pfizer is no longer the exclusive source.

Maybe it's just coincidence but I've recently noticed more advertising for a couple of Pfizer's "elective" products - Viagra (_we all know what one is electing_) and Prevnar 13 (that's Pfizer's pneumococcal vaccine).  While Pfizer may have exclusivity for the Pneu13 vaccine, there are limitations on it's "assured" market.  In those jurisdictions that provide pneumococcal vaccines as part of a public "free" program, it is aimed mainly at infants with other pneumococcal vaccines (from other manufacturers) being the primary vaccine for older persons (publicly provided pneumococcal vaccine for "healthy" adults usually starts at age 65).

Pfizer's Covid19 vaccine won't be a lone player in the marketplace - it isn't now.  If (when) the pandemic subsides and if (when) a covid vaccine becomes a routine publicly supplied item (like flu vaccine is now), then Pfizer will have to compete with all the other manufacturers for those contracts.  If it doesn't become a regular thing then Pfizer will have to market it as they do their other "elective" products and they, again, won't be the only player in the game.


----------



## Rick Goebel

mariomike said:


> It would be interesting to know if Covid deaths are undercounted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Staggering Surge Of NYers Dying In Their Homes Suggests City Is Undercounting Coronavirus Fatalities - Gothamist
> 
> 
> Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gothamist.com


To a degree, it doesn’t matter. According to Provisional weekly death counts: Interactive tool we haven’t been experiencing catastrophic levels of deaths overall during the pandemic. It looks worse than it really is on this graph because the graph is truncated at 4500 deaths and above. Truncated graphs are not at all unusual or invalid. They do, however, emphasize change rather than showing absolute values. This can be useful to show things like the degree to which deaths in Canada tend to happen more in the winter than in the summer. It also clearly identifies the spike when Covid first appeared. Note that the chart shows ALL deaths rather than Covid deaths. The total would include influenza deaths which would be near zero for 2020 probably in large part due to Covid countermeasures. The total would include suicides which are apparently significantly down in 2020. It would also include opioid overdoses which are apparently way up. These could well be counted as Covid countermeasure deaths. The reference article Staggering Surge Of NYers Dying In Their Homes Suggests City Is Undercounting Coronavirus Fatalities contains a quote saying ““[People] may be dying because of reduced care for other non-COVID diseases” like diabetes, heart attacks or other chronic conditions, Redlener said. “Those to me, should be somehow tallied as we’re looking at the death toll of COVID.” To my mind, these deaths due to reduced care should more reasonably be counted as a death toll of Covid countermeasures rather than Covid.

It is also interesting to note that deaths during the Covid spring peak were not hugely higher than the worst two weeks in 2018.

For comparison, I have created an untruncated graph for 2018, 2019, and 2020 deaths that looks somewhat less alarming. We must note that every point between 2018 and 2019 on the one hand and 2020 on the other is an actual person who died whether unrelated to Covid, due to Covid, or due to Covid countermeasures. The untruncated chart looks much less alarming, though.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Rick Goebel said:


> To a degree, it doesn’t matter. According to Provisional weekly death counts: Interactive tool we haven’t been experiencing catastrophic levels of deaths overall during the pandemic. It looks worse than it really is on this graph because the graph is truncated at 4500 deaths and above. Truncated graphs are not at all unusual or invalid. They do, however, emphasize change rather than showing absolute values. This can be useful to show things like the degree to which deaths in Canada tend to happen more in the winter than in the summer. It also clearly identifies the spike when Covid first appeared. Note that the chart shows ALL deaths rather than Covid deaths. The total would include influenza deaths which would be near zero for 2020 probably in large part due to Covid countermeasures. The total would include suicides which are apparently significantly down in 2020. It would also include opioid overdoses which are apparently way up. These could well be counted as Covid countermeasure deaths. The reference article Staggering Surge Of NYers Dying In Their Homes Suggests City Is Undercounting Coronavirus Fatalities contains a quote saying ““[People] may be dying because of reduced care for other non-COVID diseases” like diabetes, heart attacks or other chronic conditions, Redlener said. “Those to me, should be somehow tallied as we’re looking at the death toll of COVID.” To my mind, these deaths due to reduced care should more reasonably be counted as a death toll of Covid countermeasures rather than Covid.
> 
> It is also interesting to note that deaths during the Covid spring peak were not hugely higher than the worst two weeks in 2018.
> 
> For comparison, I have created an untruncated graph for 2018, 2019, and 2020 deaths that looks somewhat less alarming. We must note that every point between 2018 and 2019 on the one hand and 2020 on the other is an actual person who died whether unrelated to Covid, due to Covid, or due to Covid countermeasures. The untruncated chart looks much less alarming, though.
> View attachment 64745


Watch and see how 2021/2022 will have less deaths than 2019/2018 because the elderly who would've died anyway within a few years died because COVID just accelerated it, thus there will be less vulnerable people to die now.

Like you said, the chart looks much less alarming because it's not. The 24hr media hysteria makes it so.

In 2025, we can take a look at deaths between 2015-2020 and 2020-2025 in the US, and we'll see the deaths avg will be pretty much the same if you make sure you adjust for the increased population between 2020-2025 compared to 2015-2020.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> I don't have a lot of familiarity with investing in the stock market, I'm actively trying to research and learn a lot these days though.
> 
> To my simple mind, is this a good hint that investing in Pfizer would be wise?  That's quite the price jump from $19.00-ish to $150-ish.
> 
> 
> Anybody more investment savvy than I am have any insight on what the above article means, or doesn't mean, in terms of a potential investment opportunity?



My sister invests billions for trillionaires in a big investment house. She scoffs at anyone thinking they can make a ton of 'get rich quick' type cash through outguessing the market.

If you want to do some more responsible risk taking you might want to secure a really good financial manager, hand him/her $10k or so and say 'let 'er rip!' and see what happens.

Or online gambling


----------



## OldTanker

My son is a VP of a Canadian stock exchange. His advice? Put your money in Canadian bank stocks and don't look at them for 20 years. Been working so far. Having said that, I put a bit of mad money in Pfizer. Investment still in the red, sigh.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Pinball machine prices have doubled in the last 5 years.....tripled in the last 10. 
First machine I bought 8 years ago for 1400 now routinely goes for 3500 to 4200.  25 years ago people threw them in the dump...
One can never know what is a good investment and what isn't until one of them happens.  I used to get derided decades ago at my old job for not buying Nortel stock....


----------



## daftandbarmy

I know a woman who has family in India. They were all vaccinated 2 months ago, and they will come to your door to do it if you can't make it in.

Meanwhile, in Canada, we're trailing Bangladesh....











						Total COVID-19 vaccine doses administered
					

All doses, including boosters, are counted individually.




					ourworldindata.org


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> I know a woman who has family in India. They were all vaccinated 2 months ago, and they will come to your door to do it if you can't make it in.
> 
> Meanwhile, in Canada, we're trailing Bangladesh....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Total COVID-19 vaccine doses administered
> 
> 
> All doses, including boosters, are counted individually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org


Got mine this morning. Mom got hers yesterday.


----------



## mariomike

In case anyone is interested,

Covid-19 deaths per 100,000  in North America as of 24 March 2021,

Canada 61.19

Mexico 157.24

United States 166.23









						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

With zero proof on my part I'm sure those numbers saved a lot of pesky investigations and autopsies.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh, I'm so not surprised. 

Rest assured, heads will not roll ....


Public Health Agency was unprepared for the pandemic and 'underestimated' the danger, auditor general says​​Early agency assessments of the pandemic were oblivious to the threat: AG report​
Despite nearly two decades of warnings, planning and government spending, the Public Health Agency of Canada was not ready for the global pandemic and did not appreciate the threat it posed in its early stages, Canada's auditor general says.

In a hard-hitting review released today, Auditor General Karen Hogan took the country's primary pandemic response agency to task for failures in early warning, surveillance, risk assessments, data-sharing with the provinces and follow-up on Canadian travellers who were ordered into quarantine.

"The agency was not adequately prepared to respond to the pandemic, and it underestimated the potential impact of the virus at the onset of the pandemic," said the AG's review — one of three that looked at the Liberal government's management of the COVID-19 crisis, which as of Thursday had killed 22,780 Canadians and brought the country's economy to its knees.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/auditor-general-pandemic-covid-phac-1.5963895?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_253343


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in Politics:



> Lack of supply, but city of Toronto is scrambling to fill appointments.



I'm in my 60's.

Scheduled for 09:05 last Tuesday. Arrived at 09:00. Expected a line-up. But, there was only one person ahead of me.

Shot in the arm at 09:03. ( According to the print-out they gave me. )

They were 2 minutes ahead of schedule. YMMV.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Saw this in Politics:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in my 60's.
> 
> Scheduled for 09:05 last Tuesday. Arrived at 09:00. Expected a line-up. But, there was only one person ahead of me.
> 
> Shot in the arm at 09:03. ( According to the print-out they gave me. )
> 
> They were 2 minutes ahead of schedule. YMMV.



Did you perceive any 'slack' where they were waiting for the next customer at all? We're still well short of the 'shots in arms' needed to meet stated provincial vaccination targets...


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Did you perceive any 'slack' where they were waiting for the next customer at all? We're still well short of the 'shots in arms' needed to meet stated provincial vaccination targets...


I parked at the front door, next to the handicapped spot. Stepped out of my car to read the signs taped to the locked door. Then a lady unlocked the door, came out and set up an A-frame sign out front. She told me to wait in my car. The weather was nice, so I just stood beside it. 

She called the first name, and a guy got out of his car and went in. Called a couple more names. No reply. Then called me and I trotted in. Two minutes ahead of schedule.  

Mom got Pfizer on Monday. I got Astrazenica on Tuesday. Maybe nobody wants it? 

We both are scheduled for our boosters in July.


----------



## brihard

Sounds very safe for individuals, but also sounds like they could probably be pumping people through significantly faster...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I did mine at the after hours clinic where my Doctor is, and was in and out in no time.  Longest part was the 15 minute wait before you could leave....the injector person just wrote the time I could leave on a sticky note on my arm.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

mariomike said:


> I parked at the front door, next to the handicapped spot. Stepped out of my car to read the signs taped to the locked door. Then a lady unlocked the door, came out and set up an A-frame sign out front. She told me to wait in my car. The weather was nice, so I just stood beside it.
> 
> She called the first name, and a guy got out of his car and went in. Called a couple more names. No reply. Then called me and I trotted in. Two minutes ahead of schedule.
> 
> Mom got Pfizer on Monday. I got Astrazenica on Tuesday. Maybe nobody wants it?
> 
> We both are scheduled for our boosters in July.



Do you mind if I ask what they covered during the "Informed Consent"?  I'm just curious what the doctors and nurses are sharing in terms of potential side effects, and what you should do if you start to feel off, etc.

Cheers, Matthew.


----------



## mariomike

Cdn Blackshirt said:


> Do you mind if I ask what they covered during the "Informed Consent"?  I'm just curious what the doctors and nurses are sharing in terms of potential side effects, and what you should do if you start to feel off, etc.
> 
> Cheers, Matthew.


None of that. Just a "Hey you!" from the door lady, showed my OHIP card to the receptionist, jab, and cooled my heels for 15 minutes. 

Juice and cookies would have been a nice touch.


----------



## brihard

I would guess the informed consent was probably on the website when you signed up...


----------



## PMedMoe

Hubby got his at Loblaws and had to fill out a two page health questionnaire beforehand.


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:


> Hubby got his at Loblaws and had to fill out a two page health questionnaire beforehand.


Sure, a "health questionnaire."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

brihard said:


> I would guess the informed consent was probably on the website when you signed up...


I never signed any consent form nor signed up....my Doc emailed me a letter saying if I wanted a vaccine to call and let her know.  That afternoon got emailed place and time for a couple days later, and in I went.  I guess calling back was implied consent, but no forms were seen or signed.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

mariomike said:


> None of that. Just a "Hey you!" from the door lady, showed my OHIP card to the receptionist, jab, and cooled my heels for 15 minutes.
> 
> Juice and cookies would have been a nice touch.



Cool....thanks to all for the elaboration.


Cheers, Matthew.


----------



## RangerRay

A long read, but very important. Our governments did not cover themselves in glory.









						The untold story of the pandemic in Canada - Macleans.ca
					

In March of 2020, Canadians started dying of COVID-19 and the country shut down. This is a comprehensive report on the country's mishandling of the crisis of the century.




					www.macleans.ca


----------



## Messerschmitt

NO WAY! I thought common sense died in the pandemic!! This is actually scary to see some logic in this upside down world.









						No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty
					

Lockdowns are unlikely to be needed again as Britain learns to treat coronavirus like flu, Prof Chris Whitty has said. The chief medical officer said that up to 25,000 people die in a bad flu year without anyone noticing and that accepting some Covid deaths would be the price of keeping schools...




					ca.yahoo.com
				




In other news, MORE LOCKDOWNS IN CANADA!!! I SUPPORT!!!


----------



## brihard

Messerschmitt said:


> NO WAY! I thought common sense died in the pandemic!! This is actually scary to see some logic in this upside down world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty
> 
> 
> Lockdowns are unlikely to be needed again as Britain learns to treat coronavirus like flu, Prof Chris Whitty has said. The chief medical officer said that up to 25,000 people die in a bad flu year without anyone noticing and that accepting some Covid deaths would be the price of keeping schools...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ca.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other news, MORE LOCKDOWNS IN CANADA!!! I SUPPORT!!!



Right. In a bad flu year, up to 25k Britons may die of influenza. In the year that COVID has been on the scene, Britain has had more than five times that many. They’ve had over 126,000 deaths even WITH the extreme measures taken.

In a bad influenza season Canada may have up to 8000 deaths. So far COVID has tripled that, despite massive lockdowns that curbed spread at key times. And of course we aren’t out of the woods.

Globally, something on the order of 600-700k influenza deaths a year is pretty typical. COVID has quadrupled that. Again, with all the measures that have been taken.

Once COVID has basically burned itself out - something that due to more transmissible variant and vaccination campaigns will probably happen in Canada late this summer - then yes, it will likely remain as an endemic respiratory virus at much more controllable levels, spreading in a way our ICUs can sustain for the most serious cases. That is not the situation we have been in up to now, nor for the next few months. Allowing a ‘burn through’ would have collapsed the medical system. How soon we forget the scenes out of northern Italy a year ago. We still aren’t out of the woods yet and doctors could still have to decide who lives or dies based on resources.

The extreme public health measures, taken in exigency circumstances, have kept the virus thus far just narrowly below what the critical care system could handle. Provincial governments can fund all the empty beds they want but that doesn’t create new critical care docs or nurses or respiratory therapists. Those experts, here in Ontario, are sounding the alarm loudly about what the next few weeks stand to bring. The government’s latest halfassed response risks not sufficing. I hope we get lucky.
After this summer or fall, yes, I fully expect we can sustain a ‘manage’ approach to COVID henceforth.

This is what happens when a virulent new pathogen is introduced to a population with no prior immunity to it. History is replete with examples of this; we just aren’t accustomed to it being us. I can only imagine what am I constrained ‘burn through’ would have looked like. The 1918-1919 flu pandemic is probably not an inappropriate speculative comparison.


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> After this summer or fall,



Just two weeks to flatten the curve guys, or is it two months, ahh lets wait a year, just two more years to flatten this out. Canadas response to this has been nothing short of failure. It killed untold numbers in LTC and has decimated our economy. Dr. Tam is a failure.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> Just two weeks to flatten the curve guys, or is it two months, ahh lets wait a year, just two more years to flatten this out. Canadas response to this has been nothing short of failure. It killed untold numbers in LTC and has decimated our economy. Dr. Tam is a failure.


Well I guess it does suck when God won't tell you exactly what kind of swing is required when he throws a curve ball.  Just curious if you knew last March what the RIGHT way was.   I can only think of a couple that should have been blatently obvious,...closing down the airspace/borders immediately and starting Canadian research on a vaccine.   All the other things were "lets hope this works"......and since this hasn't been the Spanish flu scenario, it could have been done worse.


----------



## daftandbarmy

This is fantastic news for Canada, of course:

Record-high lumber prices add as much as $30K to the cost of building a house​​Lumber supply is low, but demand keeps rising as homeowners nest during the pandemic​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lumber-prices-covid-19-cost-of-housing-1.5973416?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_255679


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> Record-high lumber prices add as much as $30K to the cost of building a house​​Lumber supply is low, but demand keeps rising as homeowners nest during the pandemic​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/lumber-prices-covid-19-cost-of-housing-1.5973416?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_255679


The housing boom has fully caught Ottawa now. Houses are going for $150-$200k over asking. Townhouses are selling for over $700k, modest two bedroom condos have appreciated 20%+ in less than a year... It’s absolutely bananas.

We have a basement reno underway - we looked at doing it a year ago and delayed. Even just for finishing half a basement the price jumped a few thousand bucks. I can only imagine the impact on construction of a whole house.


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard, I’m in the same boat and will likely frame the basement in 1-5/8” steel, since I don’t have to make any of the walls load-bearing.  The ceiling is 8’6”, so I need 10’ studs trimmed 18” (but can use the trimmed ends of the studs for lateral blocking between studs to reinforce the wall).

2x4x10 white spruce - $12.19
2x1-5/8x10 steel - $5.49


----------



## Quirky

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well I guess it does suck when God won't tell you exactly what kind of swing is required when he throws a curve ball.  Just curious if you knew last March what the RIGHT way was.   I can only think of a couple that should have been blatently obvious,...closing down the airspace/borders immediately and starting Canadian research on a vaccine.   All the other things were "lets hope this works"......and since this hasn't been the Spanish flu scenario, it could have been done worse.



Humanity is a joke at this point, we will close entire economies because of bad flu seasons. This pandemic has only taught us one thing and that’s preserving icu admissions above anything else. Millions of people die every year due to completely preventable things like starvation, but we ignore it. Increased suicides, unemployment, people losing their livelihoods, drug overdoses, children growing up socially inept, all do not matter. Preserve the hospitals! We can’t over task our healthcare workers! People who have lived their lives and in death care homes have a greater priority of preserving their lives than the rest of society. Canada’s pandemic response: one step forward, two steps back.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm going with it taught us 2 things,.....unfortunately the site guidelines forbid me to type in the second one.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> The housing boom has fully caught Ottawa now. Houses are going for $150-$200k over asking. Townhouses are selling for over $700k, modest two bedroom condos have appreciated 20%+ in less than a year... It’s absolutely bananas.
> 
> We have a basement reno underway - we looked at doing it a year ago and delayed. Even just for finishing half a basement the price jumped a few thousand bucks. I can only imagine the impact on construction of a whole house.



Prices around here have gone nuts as well, as I imagine they have in many places.  There is simply no supply to match the demand.  If you creep realtor.ca, places are posted for a day or two, tops.  Our daughter and son-in-law bought their place in a small rural subdivision outside of North Bay a couple of years ago for around $350K.  A very similar house down the street went later that year for a bit more (had a garage).  It just went for ~650K with no listing.  They had a deck started last year.  It took the contractor until the Fall to get the lumber and composite.  They just learned the railing system is finally in; almost a year.


Quirky said:


> Humanity is a joke at this point, we will close entire economies because of bad flu seasons. This pandemic has only taught us one thing and that’s preserving icu admissions above anything else. Millions of people die every year due to completely preventable things like starvation, but we ignore it. Increased suicides, unemployment, people losing their livelihoods, drug overdoses, children growing up socially inept, all do not matter. Preserve the hospitals! We can’t over task our healthcare workers! People who have lived their lives and in death care homes have a greater priority of preserving their lives than the rest of society. Canada’s pandemic response: one step forward, two steps back.


I won't rehash the numbers of infections and mortality because they have been presented many time on many platforms, but to equate this pandemic as simply "a bad flu season" is simply wrong.

To imply that, since all the other social ills haven't been completely eradicated, then they do not matter and have been ignored, is wrong as well.

So the issue of vulnerability and mortality to the virus should have no impact?   I thought the goal, such as there has been one, has been to protect those at the greater risk of, you know, dying, notwithstanding their value to the economy.  Perhaps 20-somethings now showing up in ICUs should be applauded as a victory for equity.  Perhaps we need something like Logan's Run, where we all get a chip that triggers the age at which we no longer deserves society's attention.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> The housing boom has fully caught Ottawa now. Houses are going for $150-$200k over asking. Townhouses are selling for over $700k, modest two bedroom condos have appreciated 20%+ in less than a year... It’s absolutely bananas.
> 
> We have a basement reno underway - we looked at doing it a year ago and delayed. Even just for finishing half a basement the price jumped a few thousand bucks. I can only imagine the impact on construction of a whole house.


I’m in a relatively new housing area.  My build cost just under 600k two years ago, new build.   Same build in a less desirable area is now going for 850k.   A house on my street sold for 1.1 million.  This is not a million dollar street.  Now people are using PVC for decks because it’s easier and cheaper than getting lumber.

The OTTAWA market is insane.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> I’m in a relatively new housing area.  My build cost just under 600k two years ago, new build.   Same build in a less desirable area is now going for 850k.   A house on my street sold for 1.1 million.  This is not a million dollar street.  Now people are using PVC for decks because it’s easier and cheaper than getting lumber.
> 
> The OTTAWA market is insane.


Same. We built four years ago, and just a few streets over it’s still going on on a huge scale. Your figures could basically be quotes of mine. It’s insane.


----------



## Weinie

brihard said:


> Same. We built four years ago, and just a few streets over it’s still going on on a huge scale. Your figures could basically be quotes of mine. It’s insane.


And we are hoping to get out of here in 2022, when the insanity will translate into a nice cheque into our bank account. Bring on the insane.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:


> And we are hoping to get out of here in 2022, when the insanity will translate into a nice cheque into our bank account. Bring on the insane.


You should make out like a bandit. Depending on where you go it could work out extremely well


----------



## Weinie

brihard said:


> You should make out like a bandit. Depending on where you go it could work out extremely well


Hoping to go Outcan.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

> Other side of the coin - I just refi'd the house from 3.62% to 1.94 to pay off debt, new windows and doors, and siding....and some investment..  That is basically free money


----------



## Quirky

lenaitch said:


> I thought the goal, such as there has been one, has been to protect those at the greater risk of, you know, dying, notwithstanding their value to the economy.



What does protecting seniors have anything to do with lockdowns and restrictions. It's about time people start taking personal responsibility, don't want to chance getting infected...STAY HOME! I still see seniors who can barely move out in the middle of the day in crowded stores. This is who we are trying to protect, those who just don't care or are ignorant? It's been over a year of this gross government and 'expert' incompetence, my generations mental, physical and financial well being is more important than protecting those two don't want protection. Their lives are in their hands now. They had their life, it's our turn now.



> Perhaps 20-somethings now showing up in ICUs should be applauded as a victory for equity.



Yeah, ICUs are just overrun with 20-somethings, right? Ok. How many untold millions of 20, 30-somethings will be dependent on social assistance, can't find a job, die from ODs etc. Lets bulldoze the lives of millions because a few hundred are unlucky and have poor reactions. Survival rate is still over 99.9% in children and young adults, if this statistic triggers anyone, perhaps a doomsday cult would be suited for you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> They had their life, it's our turn now.


I'm finding it hard to believe I just read that.


----------



## Quirky

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I'm finding it hard to believe I just read that.



Believe me, i'm not alone in this.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:


> What does protecting seniors have anything to do with lockdowns and restrictions. It's about time people start taking personal responsibility, don't want to chance getting infected...STAY HOME! I still see seniors who can barely move out in the middle of the day in crowded stores. This is who we are trying to protect, those who just don't care or are ignorant? It's been over a year of this gross government and 'expert' incompetence, my generations mental, physical and financial well being is more important than protecting those two don't want protection. Their lives are in their hands now. They had their life, it's our turn now.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, ICUs are just overrun with 20-somethings, right? Ok. How many untold millions of 20, 30-somethings will be dependent on social assistance, can't find a job, die from ODs etc. Lets bulldoze the lives of millions because a few hundred are unlucky and have poor reactions. Survival rate is still over 99.9% in children and young adults, if this statistic triggers anyone, perhaps a doomsday cult would be suited for you.


Do YOU still have a job?  Are YOU still healthy?   If so, then what's the big deal?  It's YOUR turn!!!

No point in wasting all that energy worrying about others.  Their lives - their problems!!!


----------



## PMedMoe

Quirky said:


> Yeah, ICUs are just overrun with 20-somethings, right? Ok.


It's getting there: Variants are driving rise in younger, sicker patients Of course, I like to think this is karma for those younger types who didn't hink it would affect them.


----------



## dimsum

Quirky said:


> I still see seniors who can barely move out in the middle of the day in crowded stores.


So seniors don't need to get food, clothing, or services?  Maybe they also need to get their phones fixed or what not.  Many of them don't have support networks to do that sort of stuff for them.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> Believe me, i'm not alone in this.



Sadly, I agree, but I suppose generational narcissism isn't anything new.

With climate change, it's seems it's going to become an increasing challenge to push all of us old, useless folks onto ice floes.

Per Public Health Ontario, ~17% of all Covid-related hospital admission are under age 49.  I couldn't find any table showing any change in ICU/age data, other than a couple of media articles that said half of Regina's Covid ICU admissions are now under 40 and a Reuters article that said 40% of Ontario's are under 60.   

- From Johns Hopkins:









						No, COVID-19 Is Not the Flu | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
					

A virologist breaks down key differences between COVID-19 and influenza to explain why this pandemic is so critically—and catastrophically—different.




					www.jhsph.edu
				




_"Since December 2019, COVID-19 has killed more people in the U.S. than influenza has in the last five years." _

- From this article:









						How Does the Coronavirus Compare With the Flu?
					

As new cases appear in the U.S., some — including the president — have compared it to the seasonal flu. Here’s a close look at the differences.




					www.nytimes.com
				




The lethality rate of influenza is in the range of 0.1% (complicated by the fact that influenza is not a reportable disease in all jurisdiction). Covid has a rate of 3.4% (published in Aug 2020 before the rise of the variants).

Called Covid just 'a bad flu season' is like calling WWI just a bad domestic in the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.


----------



## PuckChaser

lenaitch said:


> Per Public Health Ontario, ~17% of all Covid-related hospital admission are under age 49.  I couldn't find any table showing any change in ICU/age data, other than a couple of media articles that said half of Regina's Covid ICU admissions are now under 40 and a Reuters article that said 40% of Ontario's are under 60.



Where does it break down the hospitalization or ICU admission per age? I keep fairly good tabs on the Ontario data, and that information is not in the Daily or Weekly Epi summaries. There's also no median age given for case fatalities.


----------



## lenaitch

PuckChaser said:


> Where does it break down the hospitalization or ICU admission per age? I keep fairly good tabs on the Ontario data, and that information is not in the Daily or Weekly Epi summaries. There's also no median age given for case fatalities.



Oops, sorry; Canada-wide data.

Page 16:



			https://health-infobase.canada.ca/src/data/covidLive/Epidemiological-summary-of-COVID-19-cases-in-Canada-Canada.ca.pdf
		


But this PHO table shows similar data:









						Ontario COVID-19 Data Tool | Public Health Ontario
					

Explore confirmed COVID-19 data in Ontario by: case trends over time including hospitalizations and deaths, age and sex, public health unit, outbreaks, laboratory testing and vaccines.




					www.publichealthontario.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

I've overheard a nunber of conversations from people who are holding out for certain vaccinations over other ones.

Government completely shit the bed with Covid19 in Canada but I'm sure this isn't helping the situation.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

All kinds of people here at work who are discussing on how spouses/family cancelled appointments rather then take the Astra.


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/apocalypse-then-masks-1.5972934
		


Fascinating story on why the Japanese are more receptive to wearing masks than North Americans.

the difference in hero portrayals is an interesting take on it.


----------



## dapaterson

So long, Northern Division.  The majority of the Vancouver Canucks are in isolation.



			https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/nhl-vancouver-canucks-covid-protocol-list-april-4-1.5975355


----------



## daftandbarmy

Becaause he's such a credible public sector leader, right? 


Hope springs for a new wave of public sector transformation: a letter from Ottawa​By Michael Wernick on 24/03/2021


Governments are even more reluctant to take on the deeper structural issues that make the internal workings of government so difficult to reform. Techno-enthusiasts see a bold frontier of further disruption by blockchain, predictive algorithms, learning software and apps for everything. They may be right in the long run, although the bust that was track and trace apps suggests a dose of caution is required.

But the real software upgrades needed to make the public sector more effective are in the decades-old models of human resources and procurement. We will soon see if, in the wake of pandemic fatigue, we also run into the dissipation of the first wave of energy and find ourselves suffering from reform fatigue. Will we have a second and third wave of innovation? With spring now here, I prefer to be optimistic.









						Hope springs for a new wave of public sector transformation
					

Michael Wernick, former clerk of the Privy Council, sketches out a post-COVID public policy and structural reform agenda for Canada




					www.globalgovernmentforum.com


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Becaause he's such a credible public sector leader, right?
> 
> 
> Hope springs for a new wave of public sector transformation: a letter from Ottawa​By Michael Wernick on 24/03/2021
> 
> 
> Governments are even more reluctant to take on the deeper structural issues that make the internal workings of government so difficult to reform. Techno-enthusiasts see a bold frontier of further disruption by blockchain, predictive algorithms, learning software and apps for everything. They may be right in the long run, although the bust that was track and trace apps suggests a dose of caution is required.
> 
> But the real software upgrades needed to make the public sector more effective are in the decades-old models of human resources and procurement. We will soon see if, in the wake of pandemic fatigue, we also run into the dissipation of the first wave of energy and find ourselves suffering from reform fatigue. Will we have a second and third wave of innovation? With spring now here, I prefer to be optimistic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope springs for a new wave of public sector transformation
> 
> 
> Michael Wernick, former clerk of the Privy Council, sketches out a post-COVID public policy and structural reform agenda for Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.globalgovernmentforum.com


The only thing missing from that screed is his "fear" that somebody will be shot.


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All kinds of people here at work who are discussing on how spouses/family cancelled appointments rather then take the Astra.


That’s silly... I’d take AZ if offered in a heartbeat. The odds of a blood clot are a hell of a lot better than my odds with COVID, or with many other things I do regularly.


----------



## OldTanker

I would take AZ in a heartbeat as well. I reckon the riskiest part of the getting the shot wouldn't be a blood clot, it would be driving to the clinic. Particularly where I live.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

brihard said:


> That’s silly... I’d take AZ if offered in a heartbeat. The odds of a blood clot are a hell of a lot better than my odds with COVID, or with many other things I do regularly.


100% agree....and I tell them they are being stupid.  But what can you do?
I took it....


----------



## observor 69

(CNN)Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease expert, on Sunday urged Americans to take any of the three "highly efficacious" coronavirus vaccines now available to them and not delay getting one vaccine over another.

"These are three highly efficacious vaccines. I can tell you I have been fully vaccinated with one that was available. It was the Moderna," he told CNN's Dana Bash on "State of the Union." "If I were not vaccinated now and I had a choice of getting a J&J vaccine now or waiting for another vaccine, I would take whatever vaccine would be available to me as quickly as possible for the simple reason of what I said a moment ago, we want to get as many people vaccinated as quickly and expeditiously as possible."


----------



## PuckChaser

Whats the incentive for Canadians who arent at risk from serious COVID complications to get vaccinated? There's been no statement saying we need X amount of Canadian population vaccinated to loosen restrictions, and only fear mongering that even vaccinated people can spread COVID. Yeah, a lot of us in this forum are in occupations that involve us taking on hardships and risks to help others, but I'd submit to you folks thumbing your nose at the anti vax folks that the general Canadian citizen could care less about the family in thier left and right flank. 

Our vaccination program is all stick and no carrot, and no amount of media/government fear porn articles are going to convince a lockdown weary populace to just fall in line.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> ​





> I would take AZ in a heartbeat as well.



 I took AZ #1 on the 23rd. Haven't noticed any side effects, yet.


----------



## OldSolduer

mariomike said:


> I took AZ #1 on the 23rd. Haven't noticed any side effects, yet.


No craving brains? 😉


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> No craving brains? 😉


Not yet!









						Covid-19 Vaccine Passports Are Coming. What Will That Mean?
					

Scores of plans to verify immunity are in the works. But there are even more questions about how they’ll use data, protect privacy—and who gets certified first.




					www.wired.com


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> Whats the incentive for Canadians who arent at risk from serious COVID complications to get vaccinated?


If you’ve been paying attention to the spread of the newer variants, particularly the P1 that’s spreading like wildfire in BC (and Brazil), you’d note that it doesn’t appear any of us aren’t at risk of serious complications. Besides that, people are focusing on the deaths but paying scant attention to the ‘long haulers’ who are still suffering months after the infection cleared.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> Whats the incentive for Canadians who arent at risk from serious COVID complications to get vaccinated? There's been no statement saying we need X amount of Canadian population vaccinated to loosen restrictions, and only fear mongering that even vaccinated people can spread COVID. Yeah, a lot of us in this forum are in occupations that involve us taking on hardships and risks to help others, but I'd submit to you folks thumbing your nose at the anti vax folks that the general Canadian citizen could care less about the family in thier left and right


There is no target but rule of thumb is probably 85% to achieve herd immunity.  Not enough is known yet about what percentage is required though.


----------



## Weinie

PuckChaser said:


> Whats the incentive for Canadians who arent at risk from serious COVID complications to get vaccinated? There's been no statement saying we need X amount of Canadian population vaccinated to loosen restrictions, and only fear mongering that even vaccinated people can spread COVID. Yeah, a lot of us in this forum are in occupations that involve us taking on hardships and risks to help others, but I'd submit to you folks thumbing your nose at the *anti vax folks* that the general Canadian citizen could care less about the family in thier left and right flank.
> 
> Our vaccination program is all stick and no carrot, and no amount of media/government fear porn articles are going to convince a lockdown weary populace to just fall in line.


I don't know if I would describe folks who are hesitant to get the vaccine as anti-vaxxers, rather I feel that many of them have done some cost-benefit analysis and decided against the vaccine. That is, at least for now, a personal choice. School-age children, who have not been vaccinated against common childhood diseases, are not welcome in most school boards across the country, nor in some cases can they travel internationally.
Where it may get complicated is if governments impose some sort of a vaccine "passport." I have seen discussions/reports where the pros and cons of this are debated. Libertarians scoff at the idea, but if 80-85% of a population has received the vaccine, and demand protection/isolation from those who haven't, certain significant social, leisure, recreation, travel, and economic barriers may be erected. We are not there yet, but, it would be both stick and carrot.


----------



## PuckChaser

brihard said:


> If you’ve been paying attention to the spread of the newer variants, particularly the P1 that’s spreading like wildfire in BC (and Brazil), you’d note that it doesn’t appear any of us aren’t at risk of serious complications. Besides that, people are focusing on the deaths but paying scant attention to the ‘long haulers’ who are still suffering months after the infection cleared.


I've seen scant data but plenty of hyperbole on variants and their hospitalization rates. The Canucks outbreak will be a key indicator on whether healthy individuals are at increased hospitalization risk, as statistically only 1 or 2 could be expected with the Wuhan origin virus.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

The sport broadcasters were saying this morning that they "have heard" a couple are "very " sick.

Used quotations as its all heresay and spec right now.


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> I've seen scant data but plenty of hyperbole on variants and their hospitalization rates. The Canucks outbreak will be a key indicator on whether healthy individuals are at increased hospitalization risk, as statistically only 1 or 2 could be expected with the Wuhan origin virus.


The Canucks are not a good sample of ‘healthy average’. They’re mostly in their 20s, extremely fit, with constant and excellent medical screening and professional help for everything from workouts to diet. A normal standard of ‘healthy individuals’ should bracket the 15-50 age group, with minimal (but not nonexistent) physical health conditions or bad habits. Think ‘beer league hockey team’ mixed with those who grudgingly do the 5km at the Army Run, rather than a professional sports team.

While there is indeed plenty of hyperbole to be found (in both direction- plenty of idiots are still saying “it’s just the flu”, I filter my perusal of anecdotes to those who know what they’re talking about- critical care doctors and epidemiologists. They’re shitting bricks, and ICU data out of Ontario supports that.

Unfortunately it’s too early yet for much data to have made it through the study and publication process, but pretty much universally the critical care doctors are saying the variants are a game changer. And P1 has barely caught on in Ontario yet that we can tell. We’re still dealing with the less-awful B.1.1.7 out here.

We’ve got a long and potentially dismal month ahead of us.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Fascinating story on why the Japanese are more receptive to wearing masks than North Americans.


My RMT is from Japan. She sometimes wears a mask. 

She was born and brought up in a culture where they are constantly taught to be considerate of others. Wearing a mask to protect others is an extension of that.

I am reminded of her social responsibility when I see people on TV ranting about their "rights" not to wear a mask.


----------



## PMedMoe

PuckChaser said:


> I've seen scant data but plenty of hyperbole on variants and their hospitalization rates.


How about this?  18 patients in Toronto General ICU, 16 due to COVID.  People are on ECMO for _weeks_.

"ECMO is for “when an ordinary mechanical ventilator isn't enough,” he said. “Obviously a very complicated and specialized intervention, so it's only done in specialized centers.”

Every day, Toronto General is being asked to take in three or four new patients needing this care.

“We're getting lots of calls about bringing patients who are in their 30s, 40s and 50s — even we've got a few [in] there, young 20s here with no past medical history,” Ferguson said."

Variants are driving rise in younger, sicker patients needing specialized care

88 critically ill COVID patients are to be transferred out of GTA hospitals

April 3 Update on #COVID19 in #Ontario: we're still on the exponential rise of this 3rd wave & have lots of younger people very sick.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Is the Covid19 vaccine available to Canadians proven to work against the new Covid variants showing up?


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> Is the Covid19 vaccine available to Canadians proven to work against the new Covid variants showing up?



Not conclusively, but initial data is apparently encouraging from what I’ve been seeing in the informed commentary.




PMedMoe said:


> How about this? 18 patients in Toronto General ICU, 16 due to COVID. People are on ECMO for _weeks_.



Apparently GTA ICUs will be transfering 88 COVID patients out over the next several days to spread the lid to ICUs that aren’t yet overloaded.

Other anecdotal information is staff working huge overtime. That’s not indefinitely sustainable.


----------



## PuckChaser

PMedMoe said:


> Variants are driving rise in younger, sicker patients needing specialized care
> 
> 88 critically ill COVID patients are to be transferred out of GTA hospitals
> 
> April 3 Update on #COVID19 in #Ontario: we're still on the exponential rise of this 3rd wave & have lots of younger people very sick.


None of your links have ages. Only the CTV article tries to make a correlative link between variants and a "wall of 30 somethings". That's not data. That's hyperbole. Show me the median ages of ICU patients by variant. Show me the hospitalization rate by age by variant. None of that data is available in Ontario, in fact it could easily be added to their COVID dashboards but it's hidden. Much like they hid the hospitalization numbers a few months ago, and then pulled the deaths per day numbers a few weeks ago. One of your links even suggests that we should be below 10 new cases a week. Israel isn't even that low and they've got 53.5% of their total population vaccinated. Hyperbole and fear mongering from folks scratching to be Twitter famous.

Ontario's ICUs are only reporting 796 hospitalized, 492 ICU today (number likely 10-15% higher due to lack of weekend reporting). That's no where close to the January peak of 1600 people in hospital when we had 32,000 active cases.



brihard said:


> The Canucks are not a good sample of ‘healthy average’. They’re mostly in their 20s, extremely fit, with constant and excellent medical screening and professional help for everything from workouts to diet.


Yes, but even with all that medical care and testing didn't stop a few notable individuals from having massive cardiac events. They're healthy, fit human beings, only difference is that they've been allowed to go to a gym and be outside for the last few months, unlike everyone in the GTA. If you're suggesting positive outcomes for COVID are only related to diet and fitness, then why have we been locking people in their homes, telling them to wear masks outside and destroying their employment so they can't afford a healthy diet anymore?


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> None of your links have ages. Only the CTV article tries to make a correlative link between variants and a "wall of 30 somethings". That's not data. That's hyperbole. Show me the median ages of ICU patients by variant. Show me the hospitalization rate by age by variant. None of that data is available in Ontario, in fact it could easily be added to their COVID dashboards but it's hidden. Much like they hid the hospitalization numbers a few months ago, and then pulled the deaths per day numbers a few weeks ago. One of your links even suggests that we should be below 10 new cases a week. Israel isn't even that low and they've got 53.5% of their total population vaccinated. Hyperbole and fear mongering from folks scratching to be Twitter famous.
> 
> Ontario's ICUs are only reporting 796 hospitalized, 492 ICU today (number likely 10-15% higher due to lack of weekend reporting). That's no where close to the January peak of 1600 people in hospital when we had 32,000 active cases.
> 
> 
> Yes, but even with all that medical care and testing didn't stop a few notable individuals from having massive cardiac events. They're healthy, fit human beings, only difference is that they've been allowed to go to a gym and be outside for the last few months, unlike everyone in the GTA. If you're suggesting positive outcomes for COVID are only related to diet and fitness, then why have we been locking people in their homes, telling them to wear masks outside and destroying their employment so they can't afford a healthy diet anymore?


I’m not suggesting that. I said the Canucks are not a good representative sample for what a normal range of healthy individuals looks like. Sample bias obfuscates data. The mere fact that several of them are reported to be ‘quite ill’ is of concern. Given that we’re early in the disease progression for those infections, little conclusion can be drawn.

In any case, when I referred to P1 in BC, the Canucks weren’t top of my mind. I’m more worried about the teachers, the workers at grocery warehouses, the emergency responders, food retail employees, the medical staff and the like. Essential workers.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> How about this?  18 patients in Toronto General ICU, 16 due to COVID.  People are on ECMO for _weeks_.
> 
> "ECMO is for “when an ordinary mechanical ventilator isn't enough,” he said. “Obviously a very complicated and specialized intervention, so it's only done in specialized centers.”
> 
> Every day, Toronto General is being asked to take in three or four new patients needing this care.
> 
> “We're getting lots of calls about bringing patients who are in their 30s, 40s and 50s — even we've got a few [in] there, young 20s here with no past medical history,” Ferguson said."
> 
> Variants are driving rise in younger, sicker patients needing specialized care
> 
> 88 critically ill COVID patients are to be transferred out of GTA hospitals
> 
> April 3 Update on #COVID19 in #Ontario: we're still on the exponential rise of this 3rd wave & have lots of younger people very sick.


Regarding TGH ECMO. Transport to TGH is a Big Deal. I haven't done one in many years, but we had to use our 40-foot buses.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Apparently GTA ICUs will be transfering 88 COVID patients out over the next several days to spread the lid to ICUs that aren’t yet overloaded.


The Toronto Paramedic bus ( "bus" as in full size buses ) fleet is way too small to handle the demand. They've already converted 5* TTC buses* to transport Covid patients. Probably more on the way.

I spent 29 years working our department's ( 40-foot ) buses. The brains upstairs dreamed up all sorts of scenarios, but I never heard of anything like this.



> Other anecdotal information is staff working huge overtime. That’s not indefinitely sustainable.



Also been hearing from my ex wife who is currently involved in emergency operational planning for this thing at a level way beyond what my pay scale ever was.

Don't let anyone con you into believing front-line operations are anywhere near "business as usual".  SARS was the biggest infectious disaster of my career.  It was high school compared to what they are mobilizing for now.


----------



## Quirky

PMedMoe said:


> Of course, I like to think this is karma for those younger types who didn't think it would affect them.



Statistically speaking still, no, younger people are still unaffected. Our death rate isn't spiking from these variants and cases are meaningless at this point. Death rates will crash as the most vulnerable get vaccinated, and cases climb as people no longer feel a moral obligation to protect the elderly. Young people can die from any number of factors, including heart failure, this doesn't make Covid any more frighting. If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die. Modern medicine can't always save you. Bunkering in my house like a god damn idiot afraid of a Brazilian or UK variant of the China virus is pathetic. 



dimsum said:


> So seniors don't need to get food, clothing, or services?  Maybe they also need to get their phones fixed or what not.  Many of them don't have support networks to do that sort of stuff for them.



Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.


----------



## PMedMoe

Younger people may not be dying but there _will_ be long-term health issues as a result of COVID and/or the variants.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die.


They don't call it "Boomer Remover" for nothing!


----------



## blacktriangle

All the discussion on age & perceived fitness/health levels ignore one of the most important parts of being human...genetics. Aren't we all something like 99.9% the same? And yet look how different we all are. That's why you could have a fit hockey player suffer complications or die, while an older & sicker person survives or suffers minimal repercussions.

My point is, like so many topics, we probably don't know as much as we think we do. This is neither for nor against either side of the COVID debate, just reality.

I think it was Brihard that mentioned "healthy average", I feel that is a much better measure than either extreme.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.


Do you ever like, stop them in their travels to tell them how you feel about them?


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Statistically speaking still, no, younger people are still unaffected. Our death rate isn't spiking from these variants and cases are meaningless at this point. Death rates will crash as the most vulnerable get vaccinated, and cases climb as people no longer feel a moral obligation to protect the elderly. Young people can die from any number of factors, including heart failure, this doesn't make Covid any more frighting. If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die. Modern medicine can't always save you. Bunkering in my house like a god damn idiot afraid of a Brazilian or UK variant of the China virus is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.


Yes, your utterly self-centered approach to this entire thing is well known to us by now. We get it that you don't care about grandma, the immune compromised, the long term health of essential workers who suffer prolonged complications, the sustainability of the critical care system, etc. Why you feel you must continue to subject us to the white noise is something that escapes me.


----------



## OldSolduer

Quirky said:


> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.


There's a few of us in here that resemble that remark - and one day you'll be one of them. You might want to retract that.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Statistically speaking still, no, younger people are still unaffected. Our death rate isn't spiking from these variants and cases are meaningless at this point. Death rates will crash as the most vulnerable get vaccinated, and cases climb as people no longer feel a moral obligation to protect the elderly. Young people can die from any number of factors, including heart failure, this doesn't make Covid any more frighting. If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die. Modern medicine can't always save you. Bunkering in my house like a god damn idiot afraid of a Brazilian or UK variant of the China virus is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.



What an awesome example of the worst that humanity has to offer.  I was brought up to respect my elders.  Fossils?  

You need a serious attitude adjustment.

I truly hope and wish that someday when you reach a certain age that you are treated with as much disregard and disrespect that you’ve demonstrated here.  What goes around comes around and I hope it comes around hard for you. But even then I doubt you’ll understand.  

Unreal.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Now he/she is just trolling us.....repeating the same old crap seeing how we'll respond.

Someday I'm sure they'll get a life, but until then let's just pretend that stain on our carpet doesn't exist.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> these old fossils



How old is that?  The people I know who are 75+ have talked about how they've started to notice the decline in their ability to do things like clean the gutters and rake the yard debris in one day, or lay a 10'x10' patio of bricks in one afternoon under the summer sun, but they still drive and walk and keep house and yard and garden and all the rest of it.  And despite some adverse events, so far I've found the period of my life beyond 40 to be the most settled and satisfactory.  One of my grandfathers was a fisherman and skippered his own boat (west coast salmon troller) until about age 68 and then occasionally went out as a deckhand for others, including one trip in his 70s on a halibut boat in the Bering Sea - he didn't work the gear, but he cooked and cleaned fish and the crew thought he'd worked enough that they voted him a share.  I also have/had relatives who can barely manage stairs as they approach and cross 80.  There's a wide variation.  It is foolish to assume away ability to contribute, let alone quality of life.


----------



## Remius

Or the contribution those “fossils” have done in a lifetime that might deserve more respect from self centered and selfish types who can only hope to achieve a fraction of what some of them have achieved or endured. 

my great aunt who died of COVID went through the depression and WW2 and this pandemic.  But some snowflakes are bothered by “fossils” trying to live their lives.   Right.


----------



## Quirky

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> ....repeating the same old crap



Pot. Kettle. I literally don’t care you old folk got triggered. This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu. It’s pretty pathetic.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:


> Pot. Kettle. I literally don’t care you old folk got triggered. *This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu. It’s pretty pathetic.*


Then by association, you are pretty pathetic too. You are not obligated/forced to post here, the fact that you continue to do so indicates that you are interested in the forum, or a troll. If you are interested, then pretty pathetic, if a troll, worse than pathetic. You choose, or we will.


----------



## Walt

Are you fully dysfunctional?


----------



## Weinie

Walt said:


> Are you fully dysfunctional?


Are you replying to my post above?


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:


> Are you replying to my post above?


Benefit of the doubt to Walt, Weinie; you posted seconds before him, so I think he was replying to Quirky immediately ahead of you.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> Pot. Kettle. I literally don’t care you old folk got triggered. This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu. It’s pretty pathetic.



But you _do_ care, because you keep coming back to revel in the reaction your comments are generating.  You're continued reference to this being 'just another flu' flies in the face of a world full of medical expertise but, of course, those references don't appear on the echo chambers you haunt.

The "triggered" response is typical of an Internet troll who treats any feedback as a win, like some kind of prize for clicks.  I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone for feeding you.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu.





> Famous because its efficiency to kill old people.


Boomer doomer?

Guess I'll die. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Walt

Weinie said:


> Are you replying to my post above?


No Weinie; as G2D stated, my statement was meant for Quirky. Mea culpa for any misunderstaning.

Walt


----------



## OldSolduer

Walt said:


> No Weinie; as G2D stated, my statement was meant for Quirky. Mea culpa for any misunderstaning.
> 
> Walt


IMO about 30 years ago our dear Quirky would have been taken to the low ground behind the M113 for a session of counselling.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Pot. Kettle. I literally don’t care you old folk got triggered. This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu. It’s pretty pathetic.


Are you this gross of a person in real life, or is it just because of the social and reputational safety afforded by operating anonymously behind a keyboard?


----------



## PuckChaser

I think we're probably good on the dogpile folks, the member likely gets the point.

- Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Pot. Kettle. I literally don’t care you old folk got triggered. This forum is a bunch of doomers afraid of some flu. It’s pretty pathetic.


As a gen Xer I’m not technically “old” folk.  And I don’t care that some snowflake millennial finds it “tough” to stay home.  Guess we were raised different.


----------



## Remius

So looks like Ontario is moving to another stay at home order tomorrow.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> And I don’t care that some snowflake millennial finds it “tough” to stay home



Yet all the boomers I know are finding it very easy to stay home.  I suppose older people are more emotionally resilient.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Yet all the boomers I know are finding it very easy to stay home.  I suppose older people are more emotionally resilient.



Dude, I've been enjoying my own company for a long time now. 

I don't need an excuse like COVID


----------



## FSTO

Down in my little corner of Manitoba, Covid has seemed to be a minor inconvenience. According to my sources locally in the Killarney - Boissivain areas only one person has contracted Covid. But according to the latest numbers from the Province , this is how Prairie Mountain and Brandon are being affected by the 3rd wave:

*BRANDON:  *
Total cases on dashboard: 1025 (no change)  
Active cases on dashboard: *5* (-1)  
Recoveries on dashboard: 998 (+1)  
Deaths: 22 (no change)  

*PRAIRIE MOUNTAIN HEALTH REGION:* 
Reported new cases: *4* 
Total cases on dashboard: 2222 (+5)  
Active cases on dashboard: 69 (+1)  
Recoveries on dashboard: 2099 (+4)  
Deaths: 54 (no change)  
Active Hospitalizations: 0 (no change)  
ICU Active patients: 0 (no change)  

Of note, 31 of Prairie Mountain’s active cases are showing as being in the Porcupine Mountain region and 24 from the Turtle Mountain region.  

In Manitoba as a whole, the province is reporting 62 new cases of COVID-19 and a five day test positivity rate of 5.3% in Manitoba.


----------



## OldSolduer

Our top doc in Manitoba recommended mask wearing outside. I’m not particularly keen on this.


----------



## Quirky

Brad Sallows said:


> Yet all the boomers I know are finding it very easy to stay home.  I suppose older people are more emotionally resilient.



It’s pretty easy when you grow up in a time with the most economic growth in history. Reap all the benefits without doing anything, but now screw the current generations. I got mine so go F yourself right?

People will ignore the order in Ontario, guaranteed. I love Doug Ford, keeps 'listening' to the 'health experts' and cries to lock down the province. I can imagine his own doctor would like to see him lose some weight. Diabetes is a real problem.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:


> Statistically speaking still, no, younger people are still unaffected. Our death rate isn't spiking from these variants and cases are meaningless at this point. Death rates will crash as the most vulnerable get vaccinated, and cases climb as people no longer feel a moral obligation to protect the elderly. Young people can die from any number of factors, including heart failure, this doesn't make Covid any more frighting. If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die. Modern medicine can't always save you. Bunkering in my house like a god damn idiot afraid of a Brazilian or UK variant of the China virus is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle





Quirky said:


> It’s pretty easy when you grow up in a time with the most economic growth in history. Reap all the benefits without doing anything, but now screw the current generations. I got mine so go F yourself right?
> 
> People will ignore the order in Ontario, guaranteed. I love Doug Ford, keeps 'listening' to the 'health experts' and cries to lock down the province. I can imagine his own doctor would like to see him lose some weight. Diabetes is a real problem.



"I got mine so go F yourself" pretty much sums up your whole argument.

 At least you're not feigning concern for other's employment status, mental health, etc. anymore.

The truth is, you're mildly inconvenienced, and you won't stop whining about it.


----------



## mariomike

FSTO said:


> According to my sources locally in the Killarney - Boissivain areas only one person has contracted Covid. But according to the latest numbers from the Province , this is how Prairie Mountain and Brandon are being affected by the 3rd wave:


Really nice people in Killarney. Went to my sister's wedding there with my wife and parents. 

Glad to know they are relatively unaffected by Covid.


----------



## PMedMoe

Maybe death from COVID shouldn't be the biggest fear for some people:  A third of COVID survivors suffer neurological or mental disorders - study

"Anxiety, at 17%, and mood disorders, at 14%, were the most common, and *did not appear to be related to how mild or severe the patient’s COVID-19 infection had been*."


----------



## Brad Sallows

> It’s pretty easy when you grow up in a time with the most economic growth in history.



That's absurd.  Life has gotten easier for each succeeding generation.  Boomers are resilient because they, like generations before them, took on the usual challenges and responsibilities of life at early adult ages, and had less or no recourse to everything taken for granted by succeeding generations.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PMedMoe said:


> Maybe death from COVID shouldn't be the biggest fear for some people:  A third of COVID survivors suffer neurological or mental disorders - study
> 
> "Anxiety, at 17%, and mood disorders, at 14%, were the most common, and *did not appear to be related to how mild or severe the patient’s COVID-19 infection had been*."


I got into a 'discussion ' with a coworker this morning about the 99,7% recovery rate this "flu" has.  I pointed out several coworkers on duty with us today that are still having effects.  I said "if I shot you in the leg and you end up dragging it around for the rest of your life, did you actually "recover" from me shooting you?"


----------



## Loachman

PuckChaser said:


> None of your links have ages. Only the CTV article tries to make a correlative link between variants and a "wall of 30 somethings". That's not data. That's hyperbole. Show me the median ages of ICU patients by variant.



I want to see data for non-virus ICU patients as well.

I reliable source told me that a local hospital's ICU was indeed full, but only had two virus-related patients. The bulk of the rest were drug overdoses.

Without a full breakdown, including comparisons to previous years, it's not possible to get a true idea of what is happening. What are the normal numbers for drug overdoses, suicide attempts, car/motorcycle smashes etcetera?

Why is this information not freely available? Is it simply that nobody sees it as relevant/important, or is it being deliberately unreported?

Conspiratorial minds need to know...


----------



## Loachman

Brad Sallows said:


> That's absurd.  Life has gotten easier for each succeeding generation.  Boomers are resilient because they, like generations before them, took on the usual challenges and responsibilities of life at early adult ages, and had less or no recourse to everything taken for granted by succeeding generations.



I get dragged into this argument with my daughter too regularly - "your generation - your generation - your generation".

Every period in time, and location on this planet, has different characteristics.

Much of the pre-Boomer generation went through rather sucky times, those that survived them created a better world (or at least that part with which we are familiar), and some things continued to get better and some things went the other way. Those of us in the "privileged" generation had to work a little harder than most kids today, but lacked the once-luxuries that so many now take for granted. The grass is digitally greener than on the other side now.

I'm  still glad that I was born "back then" and not now, because I know what I'd have missed, and would probably have been more envious and lazier.

There are plusses and minuses to everything, including time periods. Nothing was the same, is the same, or will be the same - or necessarily better or worse, just different.

And the pendulum continues to swing.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And weak men create hard times.”

- G Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain


----------



## Loachman

Quirky said:


> Statistically speaking still, no, younger people are still unaffected. Our death rate isn't spiking from these variants and cases are meaningless at this point. Death rates will crash as the most vulnerable get vaccinated, and cases climb as people no longer feel a moral obligation to protect the elderly. Young people can die from any number of factors, including heart failure, this doesn't make Covid any more frighting. If *nature* wants you dead, you will be die. Modern medicine can't always save you. Bunkering in my house like a god damn idiot afraid of a Brazilian or UK variant of the China virus is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Each store i've been to has dedicated senior hours, however these old fossils still struggle around hanging onto their carts for dear life at 6pm.


Those of us who are older than you are your future. You will become more like us, and realize that, as you, too,  grow older.

But we are not so different from you, either.

One should not so readily dehumanize people, lest one be similarly dehumanized oneself.

It is no less easy to dismiss somebody as just another "know-nothing stupid kid" as it is to dismiss somebody as just an "old fossil".

While I continue to creep into a higher-risk category, I am far from "bunkering in my house". This has hardly altered my life at all, in fact, nor do I intend to let it.

And, while it's nice for shops to offer "dedicated senior hours", I suspect that those times are not particularly popular with most people of any age anyway. I'll shop at "6pm", or right up until Walmart-closing-time, or noon, or whenever I damned well please (which will be rather later than first crack of dawn), thank-you-very much.

I've managed to survive some stuff in the past (real and personal plus impending nuclear doom, impending global freezing doom, and more lately a couple of decades of global warming doom) and do not see this as anything worth overworrying, and I suspect that many of my age and much older think the same way.

And you will too, presuming that you live as long.

"Protecting the elderly" means those in retirement and nursing homes, where they are particularly vulnerable. And that is as it should be. They are still people, and still have (much younger) people who love them and want to have them around for a bit longer.

I understand your concerns, and agree with them. I recognize the damage caused, and yet-to-be-fully-realized, by lockdowns, and am not a fan.

But you might try being a little more diplomatic and empathetic in your posting style...


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> I want to see data for non-virus ICU patients as well.
> 
> I reliable source told me that a local hospital's ICU was indeed full, but only had two virus-related patients. The bulk of the rest were drug overdoses.
> 
> Without a full breakdown, including comparisons to previous years, it's not possible to get a true idea of what is happening. What are the normal numbers for drug overdoses, suicide attempts, car/motorcycle smashes etcetera?
> 
> Why is this information not freely available? Is it simply that nobody sees it as relevant/important, or is it being deliberately unreported?
> 
> Conspiratorial minds need to know...




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377594059620024321
While the above link (from 01 Apr) doesn't specifically address how many non-COVID patients are in Ontario's ICUs, it does explain the urgency of the current situation, from ICU physicians' perspectives.






						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca
				




Current ICU COVID numbers are readily available, and Ontario currently has (as of 07 Apr) 504 COVID ICU patients, of which 311 are on ventilators.









						There are now more patients in Ontario ICUs than at any point during COVID-19 pandemic
					

There are more patients in Ontario intensive care units than at any other point in the COVID-19 pandemic and the medical director of critical care at one Toronto hospital is now warning of a “very difficult” January.



					www.google.ca
				




According to the link above, as of 15 Dec 2020, Ontario had a capacity of 2136 ICU beds.

504 beds out of 2136 isn't insignificant, and these are beds that are no longer available for post- surgery patients etc.

I agree, it would be helpful if the various provincial governments would make non-COVID ICU data available for comparison, instead of making us rely on Google searches and dated news stories for info.


----------



## Loachman

Thanks for that.

Yes, I am aware that the number, small as it is overall, is not insignificant (I'm in a relatively "quiet" area, which affects numbers) and I fully understand the perspective of the medical people and their physical and mental stress loads.

But their solution still harms many others in many ways, and the death toll and other damage resulting from lockdowns is either unknown or hidden. I read, somewhere, a few months ago, that one in five suicides is related to job loss. That was a US article, but, if true, should be about the same here. And how many unnecessary cancer deaths will show up over the next few years?

An article in the Toronto Star, yesterday, pointed out where infections were happening, but governments everywhere seem to have been targetting much-less-dangerous businesses while overlooking/ignoring the greater threats. Workers in those places, and their families, should definitely have priority access to vaccinations if they so wish.

But why were they not so accorded? Over a year into this, such oversights should not be happening.


----------



## Loachman

Quirky said:


> What does protecting seniors have anything to do with lockdowns and restrictions. It's about time people start taking personal responsibility, don't want to chance getting infected...STAY HOME! I still see seniors who can barely move out in the middle of the day in crowded stores. This is who we are trying to protect, those who just don't care or are ignorant? It's been over a year of this gross government and 'expert' incompetence, my generations mental, physical and financial well being is more important than protecting those two don't want protection. Their lives are in their hands now. They had their life, it's our turn now.


It's most likely not the ones that you're seeing who are pushing for lockdowns. They're much more likely to be like you in that regard - they just want to live their lives as normally as possible as well, and have done their own threat assessments and balanced the risks against what they need to do to live. They're not asking for your protection.

But your life is worth no more than theirs, and they are still entitled to take their turn.


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Yes, I am aware that the number, small as it is overall, is not insignificant (I'm in a relatively "quiet" area, which affects numbers) and I fully understand the perspective of the medical people and their physical and mental stress loads.
> 
> But their solution still harms many others in many ways, and the death toll and other damage resulting from lockdowns is either unknown or hidden. I read, somewhere, a few months ago, that one in five suicides is related to job loss. That was a US article, but, if true, should be about the same here. And how many unnecessary cancer deaths will show up over the next few years?
> 
> An article in the Toronto Star, yesterday, pointed out where infections were happening, but governments everywhere seem to have been targetting much-less-dangerous businesses while overlooking/ignoring the greater threats. Workers in those places, and their families, should definitely have priority access to vaccinations if they so wish.
> 
> But why were they not so accorded? Over a year into this, such oversights should not be happening.


Very valid points.  I realize that ICU doctors have a relatively narrow view: save / preserve capacity.

I would hope that public health officials would be taking additional factors into consideration i.e. economy, mental health, etc, as well as the downstream effects of their various restriction recommendations.  I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in Alberta, these decisions seem to be considered cabinet-confidences, so data justifying various measures is hard to come by.

Interestingly, Alberta has indicated it has a gradual reopening plan, based on population immunity.









						Alberta returns to Step 1 of restrictions as COVID-19 variant cases rise
					

Alberta is reverting to Step 1 of restrictions and will shut down indoor dining as cases of the COVID-19 variants of concern increase across the province.



					edmonton.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Loachman

I cannot fault them for their view. That's their world, and watching people fight for life and die is not something that they enjoy.

From the political aspect, the virus infections, hospitalizations, and death tolls are easy metrics to publicize and also easy targets for criticism.

Nobody is likely to get much credit for limiting less-visible damage elsewhere, or future follow-on damage, so the easy way out and/or CYA measures win out.

And they are all getting paid regardless of what they do or don't do, unlike many of those under their "care".

But it's encouraging to see one premier turn on the light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully, that will inspire imitation.


----------



## daftandbarmy

An example of where 'smug' can take you....


How BC Fumbled the Third Wave​Four experts say leaders were warned of the variant threat but misread key data and failed to respond fast enough.​ 
Disappointed. Disheartened. Discouraged. That’s how researchers The Tyee spoke with feel about British Columbia’s third wave. They warned the province about the threat posed by coronavirus variants, but the government didn’t listen or acted too slowly.

After successfully battling the first wave and coming closest to mirroring Atlantic Canada’s success story with COVID-19, B.C. has fallen from grace. Besieged by variants and now breaking record case counts, B.C. has joined the ranks of some of Canada’s worst performing provinces. Why?

To get answers The Tyee talked to four prominent experts, including Caroline Colijn, a professor and research chair in mathematics for evolution, infection and public health at Simon Fraser University; Sarah Otto, a specialist in evolutionary biology at the University of British Columbia; Jens von Bergmann, owner of MountainMath, an analytics company; and Amir Attaran, a professor of public health and law at the University of Ottawa.

They attribute B.C.’s missteps to a blend of wishful thinking, poor data, shying from hard decisions and ignoring independent models and reports that correctly foretold the variant crisis.









						How BC Fumbled the Third Wave | The Tyee
					

Four experts say leaders were warned of the variant threat but misread key data and failed to respond fast enough.




					thetyee.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

When I read those 'predictions' I always think "they could have easy just been wrong" and no one would have even paid attention.  They certainly wouldn't be crowing about it......


----------



## OldTanker

The most dangerous words in MSM: "According to experts" and "Studies have shown". I'm really glad I'm not in the position of having to make the difficult decisions in this pandemic. Stay safe.


----------



## daftandbarmy

"End of Tour-itis" was something we were always acutely aware of and fought hard to cure. It was an inevitable disease that emerged as troops switched off as the finish line hove into view. 

It's a killer, of course, as the bad guys like to bide their time and wait and watch your patterns over the preceding months, and then line you up for a few 'big bangs' just as you're mentally going through your post-tour leave options. That's when I put on, as I liked to call it, my 'asshole hat' and started dicking people around, breaking up comfortable routines and patterns and doubling the patrols/ searches etc. 

It was also the time for all leaders to be there all the time, and get out of the Ops Room and other hidey holes, grab a rifle and a sense of humour, and go out with the bricks (day and night) to show that you're sharing the suck and keeping an eye on them. And that you care. This also gives you a chance to be scathingly honest during the post-patrol debriefs and really piss people off. 'Pissed off troops perk up', is a good cure for End of Tour-itis. The smart people figured it out and followed suit. Some of the smartest were the most junior, which I also found gratifying, and it was fun to see things like the most junior private leading the teams through a swamp rather than following the smelly old NCO along the drier path.

It's not a popularity contest; it's life and death.

Meanwhile, strike three:


Canada is losing the race between vaccines and variants as the 3rd wave worsens​Social Sharing​
Variants rapidly outpacing vaccinations as third wave shows no signs of slowing down

But experts say Canada's slow vaccine roll out has failed to keep up with the exponential rise in variants in the third wave and the premature loosening of restrictions has led to an increase in hospitalizations and deaths — even in younger Canadians.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/coronavirus-variants-canada-covid-19-vaccine-third-wave-1.5978394?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_257070


----------



## Good2Golf

*Provinces not sitting on COVID-19 doses, national vaccine logistics lead says*

Article Link


> OTTAWA -- The military general leading Canada’s national logistical rollout of COVID-19 vaccines is shooting down suggestions that provinces are not moving doses out of freezers and into people’s arms fast enough.
> 
> 
> 
> “I think provinces and territories do their very best to administer as rapidly and as effectively as possible vaccines to Canadians throughout the country, full stop,” Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin told reporters on Thursday during the latest vaccine briefing.
> 
> 
> “No one is holding onto vaccines in the reserve… except for local readjustments. What I would say is, and based on a lot of conversations at all levels… what we see is a real desire to ensure that they have a constant flow of vaccines.”
> 
> 
> To-date the federal government has delivered more than 10 million vaccine doses to the provinces and territories, and according to CTVNews.ca’s vaccine tracker, nearly 7.2 million of those shots have been administered as of Thursday afternoon.
> 
> 
> With tens of millions more doses on the way over the next few months, the pressure is on premiers to show that they have plans in place to keep up with the supply and ensure clinics are able to administer vaccines as quickly as they can.
> 
> 
> It was a topic of conversation between Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his provincial and territorial counterparts Wednesday night, following a restated offer for additional support to boost regional vaccination campaigns.
> 
> 
> Elaborating on his remarks in an interview on CTV News Channel's Power Play, Fortin said: “Looking at the pure numbers doesn't necessarily give you the complete picture,” though across Canada the rate of immunization is “trending well,” considering the scope and complexity of the mass vaccination campaign.
> 
> 
> He said the federal government is continually updating the provinces and territories on the expected size and timing of shipments so they can make sure they have confidence more supply is coming, and so they have the health workforce in place to immunize at full capacity.
> 
> 
> Fortin said that it’s typically taking between two and five days to deliver vaccines across the country once they arrive in Canada, with the federal government assisting in seeing the batches arrive at central locations in each region and then taken from there by the provinces and territories to be distributed to what’s become hundreds of administration sites nationwide, from mass immunization centres to local pharmacies.
> 
> 
> “Vaccines are in constant movement across the country,” Fortin said during his press conference, offering anecdotally that he’s heard from his ongoing communication with his counterparts stickhandling the provincial vaccine distributions of instances where the weather or other circumstances like staffing saw doses have to be shifted from one community to another, only to have to move them again the next day.
> 
> 
> “They are doing their best, their very best, to deliver through all the various locations in their jurisdiction. That last mile, all the way to the point where Canadians get immunized, is different from one jurisdiction to another, and they're doing fantastic work immunizing as effectively as possible, given all the circumstances,” Fortin said.
> 
> 
> Asked earlier in the week whether she thought provinces and territories are vaccinating fast enough, Health Minister Patty Hajdu wouldn’t say, offering just that she thinks provinces should be immunizing as fast as possible to work through their existing and upcoming supplies quickly.
> 
> 
> “It's hard for me to give you a general answer because of course provinces and territories have very different strategies across the country, but what I can tell you is we're watching closely and we stand ready to assist any province or territory who's having a challenge in rolling out vaccination,” Hajdu said.
> 
> 
> The rate of vaccinations is still limited by the logistics of getting doses from the loading dock to vaccination sites, and the time lag is fluctuating with the delivery schedules, with thousands of the most recently arrived vaccine shipments still moving through that system on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> Weighing in on the situation in his province on Tuesday, Ford told reporters that the reason hundreds of thousands of vaccine doses are still in freezers in that province is because they had just arrived.
> 
> 
> “Over the last few days, they just literally landed on our doorstep. It takes a day for the distribution, we got it out, and we're ready to go,” he said.
> 
> 
> Canada is set to keep increasing the number of vaccines administered weekly, accelerating with the scheduled uptick in supply of doses being delivered.
> 
> As a result, Canada has been able to move up in the global vaccination rankings after shortages and delays this winter saw the country trail behind many nations.
> 
> 
> Canada has now given at least one shot to 17 per cent of the population, still remaining far behind the United States and the U.K., though is ahead of the four other countries in the G7.
> 
> 
> Potentially an outcome of the widely taken approach in Canada of focusing on first shots and delaying the second by up to four months, the nation’s ranking drops to second last in the G7 when counting those who have received both shots.
> 
> 
> With files from CTV News’ Glen McGregor


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Hopefully I didn't get this from here, but a bit of how the N95 mask works


----------



## Messerschmitt

Goes to show how BS the whole lockdowns and masks are.

1 full month of texas being fully open with no masks and even a full baseball game.



OldTanker said:


> The most dangerous words in MSM: "According to experts" and "Studies have shown". I'm really glad I'm not in the position of having to make the difficult decisions in this pandemic. Stay safe.


Everyone is an expert now. Also, "according to fact checkers".


----------



## Quirky

mick said:


> *I would hope that public health officials would be taking additional factors into consideration i.e. economy, mental health, etc, *as well as the downstream effects of their various restriction recommendations. I'm not sure about elsewhere, but here in Alberta, these decisions seem to be considered cabinet-confidences, so data justifying various measures is hard to come by.



They aren't. The only factor that is being taken into consideration is ICU capacity and cases. Every restriction and lock down imposed has been an emotional reaction with no rational thought behind to whatever end goal they see fit.


----------



## Infanteer

Are you sure about that?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ontario gives hospitals power to transfer patients without consent as Theresa Tam calls for stricter COVID-19 controls​
Link



> The first order allows physicians to transfer patients to field hospitals or a different hospital without their consent. The order says the transfer would only be allowed if the hospital is overwhelmed by COVID-19 or imminently risks being overwhelmed.
> 
> The second order allows community health agencies and Ontario Health to redeploy staff and overrides collective agreements and the union grievance process.



Wonder how well being ordered to "redeploy" contrary to collective agreements will go over.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Won't be a problem....“Staff will have the right to refuse a deployment assignment,”

As far as overriding collective agreements,...Rae days is an easy one that comes to mind that everyone knows about, and that was certainly no emergency.   My agreement says 16 hour days are the longest one can work, done more then 16 many times, it's called things like 'compromise, get 'er done,  peoples safety, etc.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> ,...Rae days is an easy one that comes to mind that everyone knows about, and that was certainly no emergency.


Rae Days cost us 144 hours pay at straight time. But, you gained 144 hours of overtime at time-and-a-half.



> Wonder how well being ordered to "redeploy" contrary to collective agreements will go over.



Mandated overtime. Change of schedule. Change of station. Working quarantine. It's all in the collective agreement, as well as the premium pay that goes along with it.


----------



## brihard

Infanteer said:


> Are you sure about that?


I expect he's very 'sure' in the sense of being confident of his answer. That doesn't mean it correlates with factual accuracy. The Dunning Krueger is strong in this one.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:


> They aren't. The only factor that is being taken into consideration is ICU capacity and cases. Every restriction and lock down imposed has been an emotional reaction with no rational thought behind to whatever end goal they see fit.


No government _wants_ to kill the economy or impose unpopular measures.

As I said, if governments would be more transparent with regards to data driving their decision-making, people would be less inclined to make inaccurate assumptions and resort to hyperbole.


----------



## brihard

mick said:


> No government _wants_ to kill the economy or impose unpopular measures.
> 
> As I said, if governments would be more transparent with regards to data driving their decision-making, people would be less inclined to make inaccurate assumptions and resort to hyperbole.


The data is all available and being published, people simply don’t look past the front page. The Ontario Science Table has been publishing and sourcing their data and projections this whole time, and they’ve been forecasting things pretty accurately. Assuming they remain reasonably accurate, their latest models are deeply disturbing. The less than scientifically enlightened individuals running the province literally said they ‘wanted to see if the hospitals would match the models’ before making a decision on the latest restrictions. Well, it did.


----------



## RangerRay

Canada is likely to exceed the U.S. infection rate in the coming days - Macleans.ca
					

The assumption that we would fare better than our neighbours to the south held true through much of the pandemic's first year. Not anymore.




					www.macleans.ca
				




This is not good. Our governments need to step up their game.


----------



## Messerschmitt

2 more states to follow their progression, Utah and Alabama









						Biden administration won't surge vaccines to virus hotspots; Alabama, Utah lift mask mandates. Latest COVID-19 updates
					

Alabama and Utah end statewide mask mandates. CDC reports 3,400 new variant cases. Global deaths top 2.9 million. Latest COVID-19 updates.



					www.usatoday.com
				




I know Texas is fully open since 10 March. What about Florida? Fully open no masks or still some slight restrictions? Is California/New York fully draconian locked down aka Ontario?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Messerschmitt said:


> fully draconian locked down aka Ontario?



HAHAHAHAHAHuh?      Oh, you were serious.....wow, I'd hate to see a lot of folk if, heavens forbid, anything at all annoying was to happen in their life.


----------



## CBH99

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHuh?      Oh, you were serious.....wow, I'd hate to see a lot of folk if, heavens forbid, anything at all annoying was to happen in their life.


In all fairness, the media out west here has made the 'mandatory stay at home order' in Ontario sound pretty draconian.

I don't think it was a total unreasonable question, given the thread....


----------



## Mick

brihard said:


> The data is all available and being published, people simply don’t look past the front page. The Ontario Science Table has been publishing and sourcing their data and projections this whole time, and they’ve been forecasting things pretty accurately. Assuming they remain reasonably accurate, their latest models are deeply disturbing. The less than scientifically enlightened individuals running the province literally said they ‘wanted to see if the hospitals would match the models’ before making a decision on the latest restrictions. Well, it did.


Very informative - I don't believe we have an equivalent body in AB.

I note that the Science Table is arms-length, and has a mandate to provide "weekly summaries of relevant scientific evidence to the COVID-19 Health Coordination Table" of Ontario.

To be honest, this is the first I've heard of this body.  Does the government cite, or acknowledge these summaries when announcing new measures?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

CBH99 said:


> In all fairness, the media out west here has made the 'mandatory stay at home order' in Ontario sound pretty draconian.
> 
> I don't think it was a total unreasonable question, given the thread....


I don't think Ontario has seized any private property or places of worship and fenced them off to their congregations. I can't think of anywhere in Ontario, where young adults were being threatened with tazering, handcuffed and arrested for playing shinny, like Alberta. Or a full lockdown AND curfew in Quebec. I'm not disputing legalities or assigning blame, but if you want to talk about perceptions of draconian behaviour, the last place I'd look is Ontario because of a stay at home order that has tons of provisions for leaving your home during the lockdown. In effect, if you legally exploit the rules in Ontario, there really is no lockdown, draconian or otherwise.


----------



## Good2Golf

^ This.

...so you can go to work, go get your prescriptions, go get food at a grocery store or take out from a restaurant and get fuel and necessities.  

Draconian?  Really?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Don't forget go golfing...


----------



## Good2Golf

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Don't forget go golfing...


Oops....exercise too.

They tried the “Don’t do!” list already...but there is some bad behaviour out there, particularly certain communities, but the Province isn’t at the point to call them out for their bad behaviour...yet, but it’s well-known who they are...

COVID-19 in Ontario: A detailed look at coronavirus numbers


----------



## dimsum

Messerschmitt said:


> Is California/New York fully draconian locked down aka Ontario?


I'm in ON.  The only changes I've noticed are that all at-restaurant dining (both indoor and patios) have stopped, and I can't get a haircut.


----------



## mariomike

My wife has gone SCUBA diving at various locations in Ontario almost every weekend, including yesterday, since the pandemic began.


----------



## brihard

In Ontario the spread hasn’t been due to a paucity of rules, but rather from a lack of compliance and, arguably, a lack of enforcement. The ‘lockdown’ in Ontario is a joke.




mick said:


> Very informative - I don't believe we have an equivalent body in AB.
> 
> I note that the Science Table is arms-length, and has a mandate to provide "weekly summaries of relevant scientific evidence to the COVID-19 Health Coordination Table" of Ontario.
> 
> To be honest, this is the first I've heard of this body.  Does the government cite, or acknowledge these summaries when announcing new measures?



Truth be told I haven’t spent much time looking at the government’s citations... The government is certainly informed by them, and grudgingly refers to the modelling, but isn’t keen to promote it because it’s pretty grim.

Hitherto the modelling has done a good job of convincing them of what needs to me done, and so the provincial trends have tended to follow the ‘with appropriate interventions’ models. Now we’re getting to watch the province follow the ‘oh shit’ models.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> My wife has gone SCUBA diving at various locations in Ontario almost every weekend, including yesterday, since the pandemic began.


How far away does she generally travel to SCUBA dive?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> How far away does she generally travel to SCUBA dive?


We haven't left Ontario since the pandemic. This winter she limited her diving to Ontario. But, in the past, Costa Rica, Bonair, Aruba, Saba Islands. St. Martin, St. Luca, Cuba, Bahamas, Curacao.

Here in Ontario, Niagara River ( Drift dive )., St. Lawrence River ( Ontario side ), Lake Erie, Sherkston Lake quarry, Wind Mill quarry, Trout Lake quarry, Innerkip quarry, Lime quarry.

Tobermory, Lake Ontario, Humber Bay, Lake Simcoe, Welland Canal. Georgian Bay.

Some shipwrecks like, Sligo, Morrison, Davis, Caroline Rose.

Under Ice Diving at Humber Bay and Lake Simcoe.

Went to Connestoga yesterday.

I'm not a diver. I'm more of a pedestrian.


----------



## GR66

brihard said:


> In Ontario the spread hasn’t been due to a paucity of rules, but rather from a lack of compliance and, arguably, a lack of enforcement. The ‘lockdown’ in Ontario is a joke.


This.

My wife, two sons and myself are currently at home with positive COVID tests.  My 20yr old had contact with an individual who decided not to self isolate while waiting for the results of their own COVID test (and also didn't feel it necessary to tell anyone that they had been tested due to close contact with a positive individual).  As a result six people this individual had contact with tested positive (including my son) and many more then forced to self-isolate due to close contact (including my wife, older son and myself).

While in isolation in our home and with our youngest confined to his room, despite our best precautions (masking, regular cleaning, social distancing, etc.) the rest of us developed symptoms and tested positive.  Fortunately my wife was already working from home full time and there was only one day that my older son and I were at work before we learned of the possible exposure (we're also both very careful to always wear our masks and socially distance at work) so there was no further spread from our grouping.  No idea how far the spread went from the other five people originally exposed.

We're lucky that our symptoms have been pretty mild but this is an excellent example of how individuals not following the rules can have a large impact on the community around them.  You may not like the rules, but if people actually followed them we wouldn't have to keep going through these cycles of lockdown and re-opening.


----------



## Weinie

GR66 said:


> This.
> 
> My wife, two sons and myself are currently at home with positive COVID tests.  My 20yr old had contact with an individual who decided not to self isolate while waiting for the results of their own COVID test (and also didn't feel it necessary to tell anyone that they had been tested due to close contact with a positive individual).  As a result six people this individual had contact with tested positive (including my son) and many more then forced to self-isolate due to close contact (including my wife, older son and myself).
> 
> While in isolation in our home and with our youngest confined to his room, despite our best precautions (masking, regular cleaning, social distancing, etc.) the rest of us developed symptoms and tested positive.  Fortunately my wife was already working from home full time and there was only one day that my older son and I were at work before we learned of the possible exposure (we're also both very careful to always wear our masks and socially distance at work) so there was no further spread from our grouping.  No idea how far the spread went from the other five people originally exposed.
> 
> We're lucky that our symptoms have been pretty mild but this is an excellent example of how individuals not following the rules can have a large impact on the community around them.  You may not like the rules, but if people actually followed them we wouldn't have to keep going through these cycles of lockdown and re-opening.


GR66,

My best wishes to you and your loved ones to recover.


----------



## PMedMoe

GR66 said:


> You may not like the rules, but if people actually followed them we wouldn't have to keep going through these cycles of lockdown and re-opening.


Fully agree.

In Kingston, they had to fence off Breakwater Park due to large crowds hanging out.  We have an outbreak in the university district (not surprising) and 70% of positive cases are in the 18-29 age group.

On Saturday, Kingston Police handed out 17 tickets for violating the province’s Stay-at-Home order and 17 tickets for Reopening Ontario Act (ROA) regarding gatherings over 5 people.  Glad to see they're finally enforcing the rules.

As an added bonus, they are now taking a refined approach and sedentary activities such as sitting or sunbathing are not considered to be an exception of the Stay at Home orders.  Seriously, you just want to sit around and sunbathe?  Do it in your own damn yard.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> My wife has gone SCUBA diving at various locations in Ontario almost every weekend, including yesterday, since the pandemic began.



Good for her! 

Damn... my dive gear is pretty lonely these days. I haven't been out in over a year


----------



## dapaterson

GR66 said:


> We're lucky that our symptoms have been pretty mild but this is an excellent example of how individuals not following the rules can have a large impact on the community around them.  You may not like the rules, but if people actually followed them we wouldn't have to keep going through these cycles of lockdown and re-opening.



Best wishes to you & your family for a full recovery.  And thank you for being responsible where others are not.  I know folks working in public health and they are long past overwhelmed.

If you want an example of how badly things can go with spread, look at the Mega Gym outbreak in Quebec - as of late last week there were over 500 infections and one death connected with the outbreak (linked article is from earlier in the week when there were "only" 419 infections).









						Quebec City gym linked to more than 400 cases of COVID-19, health authorities say - OHS Canada Magazine
					

Primary cases are believed to have spread the virus to 36 workplaces




					www.ohscanada.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Good for her!
> 
> Damn... my dive gear is pretty lonely these days. I haven't been out in over a year


I need to get back into diving.


----------



## Jarnhamar

It's nice to see people having large get togethers and parties are being or going to be tickets more. 

How do homeless people fit in the picture wrt fines and such?


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> Best wishes to you & your family for a full recovery.  And thank you for being responsible where others are not.  I know folks working in public health and they are long past overwhelmed.
> 
> If you want an example of how badly things can go with spread, look at the Mega Gym outbreak in Quebec - as of late last week there were over 500 infections and one death connected with the outbreak (linked article is from earlier in the week when there were "only" 419 infections).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quebec City gym linked to more than 400 cases of COVID-19, health authorities say - OHS Canada Magazine
> 
> 
> Primary cases are believed to have spread the virus to 36 workplaces
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ohscanada.com


 
Amen to that! 

Meanwhile, on Vancouver Island, the third wave of reckoning is nigh....

Third wave of COVID-19 crashes over Vancouver Island​
After escaping the brunt of COVID-19 illnesses and fatalities for most of last year, the third wave of the pandemic is now starting to strain public health workers in the Island Health region.

Public health leaders on Vancouver Island say they expect case numbers to keep rising, due to an influx of travellers from the Lower Mainland over Easter long weekend, among other factors.

The Island has seen cases skyrocket from what has been a consistently low number throughout the pandemic.

“We continue to be at almost 70 [cases] a day rate, which is literally triple of what we were seeing 10 days ago,” said Island Health Chief Medical Health Officer, Dr. Richard Stanwick, in an interview with Capital Daily.

From vacationers to variants to overly optimistic government strategies, there is plenty of blame to go around. We took a step back to understand what is happening on the Island and what to expect in the coming weeks.

Seasonal workers and vacationers​One unexpected demographic Stanwick blamed for the increase in traffic: tourism-industry employees leaving closed-down Whistler for Tofino.

“When Whistler [Blackcomb Ski resort] was closed...many of these individuals needed employment and one of the traditional corridors, in terms of the workforce, is between Tofino and Whistler,” Stanwick said.

“So we actually saw a number of individuals moving from the closed down Whistler to Tofino over the long weekend. Unfortunately, with the high rates of the P1 [variant recorded in Whistler], we anticipate that we will see a continued rise in the P1 cases [in the Island Health region].”

Surf shops and hotels in Tofino contacted by Capital Daily confirmed that seasonal employees have started to arrive for the summer season, many from Whistler in particular.

Tofino Mayor Dan Lan said there is concern in the town about the influx, and what it means for businesses trying to balance staying open and keep their employees and customers safe. There have been outbreaks earlier in the season that he says were quickly contained—but the new arrivals are coming from higher-risk parts of the province.









						Third wave of COVID-19 crashes over Vancouver Island
					

Rise of variants was predictable, expert says




					www.capitaldaily.ca


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> It's nice to see people having large get togethers and parties are being or going to be tickets more.
> 
> How do homeless people fit in the picture wrt fines and such?


The order doesn't apply to the homeless.  EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND CIVIL PROTECTION ACT STAY-AT-HOME ORDER


----------



## cavalryman

daftandbarmy said:


> Damn... my dive gear is pretty lonely these days. I haven't been out in over a year


Ditto. Last time was Bonaire in early Jan 2020.


----------



## daftandbarmy

cavalryman said:


> Ditto. Last time was Bonaire in early Jan 2020.



This might be the nudge I need to upgrade to a new BCD with integrated weights and getting my ass back underwater. 

BC's West Coast is the divers' equivalent of Mecca and I'm walking by it every day....


----------



## Quirky

Good2Golf said:


> but the Province isn’t at the point to call them out for their bad behaviour...yet, but it’s well-known who they are...



Overlaying that map over towns its not hard to figure out the demographic living in those areas. It's almost like living in packed subdivisions won't do a damn thing controlling the spread of respiratory illnesses. Do you really believe they are following health advise for mask wearing and distancing in those cities. Our soft stance on political correctness is going to prolong this nonsense in never ending waves. Has Doug Ford actually called out, publicly, specific areas like Brampton or Mississauga vise regions, or will that be deemed racist.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You can be racist against areas because of the density of the population??  Huh...


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Overlaying that map over towns its not hard to figure out the demographic living in those areas. It's almost like living in packed subdivisions won't do a damn thing controlling the spread of respiratory illnesses. Do you really believe they are following health advise for mask wearing and distancing in those cities. Our soft stance on political correctness is going to prolong this nonsense in never ending waves. Has Doug Ford actually called out, publicly, specific areas like Brampton or Mississauga vise regions, or will that be deemed racist.


Sorry, I’m confused. Who’s ‘they’? Which demographic is living in those areas? I’m not following.


----------



## GR66

Thanks for the well wishes.  I think our situation shows that fighting this really requires a full team effort.  We took the rules seriously and did the things we were asked to do without (much) complaint and all it took was one person in the community not taking it seriously to infect our whole family and a raft of other people.


----------



## brihard

GR66 said:


> Thanks for the well wishes.  I think our situation shows that fighting this really requires a full team effort.  We took the rules seriously and did the things we were asked to do without (much) complaint and all it took was one person in the community not taking it seriously to infect our whole family and a raft of other people.


Sorry, I missed your reply. All the best through this, and here’s hoping you and yours make a fast and full recovery.


----------



## Kirkhill

> A (European) Commission official involved in negotiations of vaccines for the EU acknowledged that Britain’s experience is an “interesting microcosm of some of the kind of ... opportunities and risks.”
> ...
> 
> But the official told Politico that the UK likely paid more.
> 
> The diplomat added: “They’ve clearly had to create the worst terms and conditions.
> 
> “God knows what they’ve agreed to on liability and indemnification.”
> 
> Slow decision-making inside the Commission is said to have sparked a wave of unease through the 27 nations in the bloc in the early days of vaccine take-up.











						EU official throws tantrum over vaccine contracts: 'UK has worst terms
					

AN EU OFFICIAL appeared to throw a tantrum over the UK's coronavirus vaccine contracts, stating Britain "clearly had to create the worst terms and conditions," before adding: "God knows what they've agreed to."




					www.express.co.uk
				




And there you have the tale of the professional purchase manager - focused on the contract and willing to spend weeks negotiating the terms.   Blissfully unaware that the million dollars he has "saved" disappears because the plant he is holding up is not available to produce revenue generating product (or services).

As a salesman I was taught that it is not the product you are selling.  You are selling what the product can do for the client.  How much money can you make them or save them?  What value do you bring them?  And we're not talking social values - unless they bring you more market share and more money.


----------



## FJAG

Pfizered!


----------



## Good2Golf

Quirky said:


> Overlaying that map over towns its not hard to figure out the demographic living in those areas. It's almost like living in packed subdivisions won't do a damn thing controlling the spread of respiratory illnesses. Do you really believe they are following health advise for mask wearing and distancing in those cities. Our soft stance on political correctness is going to prolong this nonsense in never ending waves. Has Doug Ford actually called out, publicly, specific areas like Brampton or Mississauga vise regions, or will that be deemed racist.


I wasn’t implying race...my parents are in Mississauga and they’re WASPs, but I was indirectly pointing out that Peel Region in particular has community transfer issues.  I haven’t seen a racial breakdown, I don’t think that data is even taken.  That wasn’t my point. The issue is more one of people complying with directives. Scarborough/Ajax/Durham is just as dense and doesn’t have the same issues, and that region, as with all of Toronto to be honest, is racially diverse. The issue is regional conduct. I don’t see why Ford or others should not be able to more specifically say where the hot spots really are.  If anything, that would make others perhaps think before they went out in the community in larger numbers.


----------



## RangerRay

GR66 said:


> Thanks for the well wishes.  I think our situation shows that fighting this really requires a full team effort.  We took the rules seriously and did the things we were asked to do without (much) complaint and all it took was one person in the community not taking it seriously to infect our whole family and a raft of other people.


I was in the same boat last winter. Luckily I was the only one to test positive and to this day, I still don’t know who I got it from. I was working in a very infested community at the time but tried hard not to be in close contact with anyone I didn’t have to. Two weeks isolation in the spare room and 6 weeks to symptom free before I could return to work was not fun (although my sense of smell has not fully recovered). I totally feel for you and your situation and hope you and your family fully recover. Definitely not a “flu”.


----------



## Blackadder1916

FJAG said:


> Pfizered!



Really?



No wonder you're smiling.


----------



## lenaitch

Postal codes can paint with a broad brush and I haven't looked at them in detail, but some areas, like Jane/Finch have a lot of low income and subsidized housing where residents are likely to work in minimal wage service jobs or other 'precarious' employment and may not be able to simply stay home.  Similarly, large areas of Brampton and Mississauga are townhouses and apartments.  Even those that may be considered middle class have a high percentage of first-generation immigrant families with multi-generational living.   Whether or not any or all in a given household would be able to work from home is a question.  Many pool their income in order to be able to make the mortgage.


----------



## OldTanker

First shot down range.


----------



## Jarnhamar

What happens if someone mixes dose #1 from one vaccine and done #2 from a different vaccine?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> What happens if someone mixes dose #1 from one vaccine and done #2 from a different vaccine?











						Can you mix and match Covid vaccines? Here's what we know so far
					

The global medical community is considering whether it's possible, and safe, to administer two different vaccine candidates to the same person.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## suffolkowner

I haven't read the article above but the Sputnik V is a 2 viral vector vaccine. With the first dose from one adenovirus vector and the second by another. They are both delivering the full spike protein as far as I know.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thanks MM.

I'm pretty sure I saw that professor in season 2 of ancient aliens.


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> I wasn’t implying race...my parents are in Mississauga and they’re WASPs, but I was indirectly pointing out that Peel Region in particular has community transfer issues.


To put the City of Mississauga in perspective, it's the sixth most populous municipality in Canada.  

( Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton are bigger. )

That is Mississauga only, and does not include the rest of Peel Region ( Brampton and Caledon ).


----------



## Remius

GR66 said:


> This.
> 
> My wife, two sons and myself are currently at home with positive COVID tests.  My 20yr old had contact with an individual who decided not to self isolate while waiting for the results of their own COVID test (and also didn't feel it necessary to tell anyone that they had been tested due to close contact with a positive individual).  As a result six people this individual had contact with tested positive (including my son) and many more then forced to self-isolate due to close contact (including my wife, older son and myself).
> 
> While in isolation in our home and with our youngest confined to his room, despite our best precautions (masking, regular cleaning, social distancing, etc.) the rest of us developed symptoms and tested positive.  Fortunately my wife was already working from home full time and there was only one day that my older son and I were at work before we learned of the possible exposure (we're also both very careful to always wear our masks and socially distance at work) so there was no further spread from our grouping.  No idea how far the spread went from the other five people originally exposed.
> 
> We're lucky that our symptoms have been pretty mild but this is an excellent example of how individuals not following the rules can have a large impact on the community around them.  You may not like the rules, but if people actually followed them we wouldn't have to keep going through these cycles of lockdown and re-opening.


Big problem in Ottawa are organised sports teams.  Too many are car pooling to practice and games and then players and parents gather after events.  Then they complain that little Johnny is suffering because he’ll never make then NHL if he can’t play.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Big problem in Ottawa are organised sports teams.  Too many are car pooling to practice and games and then players and parents gather after events.  Then they complain that little Johnny is suffering because he’ll never make then NHL if he can’t play.


I wonder what Canadians who suffered the hardships of the Depression and the war would think of that.


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> To put the City of Mississauga in perspective, it's the sixth most populous municipality in Canada.
> 
> ( Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Ottawa and Edmonton are bigger. )
> 
> That is Mississauga only, and does not include the rest of Peel Region ( Brampton and Caledon ).


My follow-up point was directed to the issue that inferences about racial grouping in a Region was NOT my intention posting the original COVID heat-map of Ontario, but rather the Region (Peel/Mississauga) that showed as a relative (per 100,000 pop) was a notable high-rate outlier, and so worthy of being directly (and repeatedly) addressed by whomever, Premier, Health O, etc. until those areas improve.


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:


> My follow-up point was directed to the issue that inferences about racial grouping in a Region was NOT my intention posting the original COVID heat-map of Ontario, but rather the Region (Peel/Mississauga) that showed as a relative (per 100,000 pop) was a notable high-rate outlier, and so worthy of being directly (and repeatedly) addressed by whomever, Premier, Health O, etc. until those areas improve.


Oh, I'm sure we all know that wasn't _your_ intent.


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> My follow-up point was directed to the issue that inferences about racial grouping in a Region was NOT my intention posting the original COVID heat-map of Ontario, but rather the Region (Peel/Mississauga) that showed as a relative (per 100,000 pop) was a notable high-rate outlier, and so worthy of being directly (and repeatedly) addressed by whomever, Premier, Health O, etc. until those areas improve.


My intent was only to comment on how much Mississauga has grown in the years I have been familiar it. No offence intended.


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> My intent was only to comment on how much Mississauga has grown in the years I have been familiar it. No offence intended.


All good...I was just confused to the size reference of Mississauga, because the data was already normalized to ‘per 100,000.’  Others trying to specifically racialize the community-spread in the  Region was offside IMO, and detract. 

I think it’s still fair to call out a geographic region for two reasons: 1) it may make people in that region think twice about meeting in larger groups; and 2) may help others who are complying fully, adjust their own patterns to reduce the likelihood of exposure from those who don’t care about 1).


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Victoria....


Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cop​ 
It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.

Will Victoria’s ACT teams even be able to keep working with some of their more volatile clients? Will the change push them toward crisis

 What they’re talking about is a decision to remove two of the three Victoria police officers attached to local mental-health teams. The move, effective May 1, has some current and former team members sounding the alarm.

But Victoria Police Chief Del Manak replies that he has no choice but to reassign the officers, due to the decision of Victoria city council, backed by the province, not to fund the effort.

At question are the four multi-disciplinary teams — they include psychiatric nurses, addiction-recovery workers, registered nurses and social workers, among others — tasked with caring for 340 people whose severe mental illness is often compounded by substance abuse.

Most of the time, the ACT — or Assertive Community Treatment — team members don’t need police around, but occasionally they do. Sometimes there are buildings health workers don’t feel safe entering alone, and sometimes the clients themselves are at a point where a dampening presence is required. Experience shows things go more smoothly when the cop who shows up is out of uniform and already has a relationship with the client.









						Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cops
					

It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## lenaitch

Are folks implying my post was racist?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> Overlaying that map over towns its not hard to figure out the demographic living in those areas. It's almost like living in packed subdivisions won't do a damn thing controlling the spread of respiratory illnesses. Do you really believe they are following health advise for mask wearing and distancing in those cities. Our soft stance on political correctness is going to prolong this nonsense in never ending waves. Has Doug Ford actually called out, publicly, specific areas like Brampton or Mississauga vise regions, or will that be deemed racist.


i think its this post that is being played with....


----------



## brihard

lenaitch said:


> Are folks implying my post was racist?



Definitely not me. I have questions about this one, which have gone unanswered:



Quirky said:


> Overlaying that map over towns its not hard to figure out the demographic living in those areas. It's almost like living in packed subdivisions won't do a damn thing controlling the spread of respiratory illnesses. Do you really believe they are following health advise for mask wearing and distancing in those cities. Our soft stance on political correctness is going to prolong this nonsense in never ending waves. Has Doug Ford actually called out, publicly, specific areas like Brampton or Mississauga vise regions, or will that be deemed racist.



Some lack of clarity around which 'demographic', and who 'they' are.


----------



## mariomike

Moved reply to #4,290 to Emergency Services.


----------



## PMedMoe

brihard said:


> Some lack of clarity around which 'demographic', and who 'they' are.


You know..."they", the mythical "they".  It's all "their" fault.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Victoria....
> 
> 
> Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cop​
> It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.
> 
> Will Victoria’s ACT teams even be able to keep working with some of their more volatile clients? Will the change push them toward crisis
> 
> What they’re talking about is a decision to remove two of the three Victoria police officers attached to local mental-health teams. The move, effective May 1, has some current and former team members sounding the alarm.
> 
> But Victoria Police Chief Del Manak replies that he has no choice but to reassign the officers, due to the decision of Victoria city council, backed by the province, not to fund the effort.
> 
> At question are the four multi-disciplinary teams — they include psychiatric nurses, addiction-recovery workers, registered nurses and social workers, among others — tasked with caring for 340 people whose severe mental illness is often compounded by substance abuse.
> 
> Most of the time, the ACT — or Assertive Community Treatment — team members don’t need police around, but occasionally they do. Sometimes there are buildings health workers don’t feel safe entering alone, and sometimes the clients themselves are at a point where a dampening presence is required. Experience shows things go more smoothly when the cop who shows up is out of uniform and already has a relationship with the client.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cops
> 
> 
> It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Replied in Emergency Services.








						ACT program Victoria, B.C. Police
					

Sometimes there are buildings health workers don’t feel safe entering alone,    Do they have the right to delay service, ( ie: not go in without police ) based only on a "feeling"?  When I was a health care worker we could only delay service ( ie: not go in until police arrived ) if there was an...




					army.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

lenaitch said:


> Are folks implying my post was racist?


Nope.  Not you at all.

I was being more general, but our resident ‘let the old people die, they’ve had their time’ member who appeared to be leaning towards outing a specific racial group for bad COVID behaviour.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Remius

Ottawa has a few stupid incidents over the weekend.  Things got violent at Mooney’s Bay beach and a house party in stittsville.  By law issued some 400 tickets over the weekend.  

We’re our own worst enemies.

And now the Ford government’s confused messaging on schools closing again.


----------



## cavalryman

Remius said:


> Ottawa has a few stupid incidents over the weekend.  Things got violent at Mooney’s Bay beach and a house party in stittsville.  By law issued some 400 tickets over the weekend.


Such as three young women doing 182 kph on the 417 heading for a party in the west end... No party, no car, driver gets a speeding ticket and all three get a no-stay-at-home ticket. If you're going to flip the bird at the regs, at least don't tempt fate with stunt driving on the most highly watched piece of roadway in the NCR.


----------



## Messerschmitt

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Victoria....
> 
> 
> Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cop​
> It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.
> 
> Will Victoria’s ACT teams even be able to keep working with some of their more volatile clients? Will the change push them toward crisis
> 
> What they’re talking about is a decision to remove two of the three Victoria police officers attached to local mental-health teams. The move, effective May 1, has some current and former team members sounding the alarm.
> 
> But Victoria Police Chief Del Manak replies that he has no choice but to reassign the officers, due to the decision of Victoria city council, backed by the province, not to fund the effort.
> 
> At question are the four multi-disciplinary teams — they include psychiatric nurses, addiction-recovery workers, registered nurses and social workers, among others — tasked with caring for 340 people whose severe mental illness is often compounded by substance abuse.
> 
> Most of the time, the ACT — or Assertive Community Treatment — team members don’t need police around, but occasionally they do. Sometimes there are buildings health workers don’t feel safe entering alone, and sometimes the clients themselves are at a point where a dampening presence is required. Experience shows things go more smoothly when the cop who shows up is out of uniform and already has a relationship with the client.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jack Knox: It’s unsafe, mental-health workers say, as VicPD cuts community-team cops
> 
> 
> It’s not just their own safety being put at risk, the women say. It’s the well-being of the vulnerable people they serve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


But #support all political motivated actions including de-funding the police and BLM!

In other news








						Marxist BLM leader buys $1.4 million home in ritzy LA enclave
					

Patrisse Khan-Cullors, the leader of Black Lives Matter and a self-described Marxist, recently purchased a $1.4 million home in an exclusive Los Angeles neighborhood where the vast majority of resi…




					nypost.com
				




But no seriously, I support! BLM is clearly not a pure political supported movement and all about equality. I mean I'm sure her 1.4 mil house is bottom of the barrel in that neighbourhood filled with whites who's most houses are significantly more expensive, therefore she is repressed since she can't have a house just as expensive as all those whites filled with privileges.


----------



## Quirky

Good2Golf said:


> Nope.  Not you at all.
> 
> I was being more general, but our resident ‘let the old people die, they’ve had their time’ member who appeared to be leaning towards outing a specific racial group for bad COVID behaviour.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



You have to be pretty naive not to figure out who lives in the third world of Brampton and Mississauga and overlaying google maps and Covid areas spikes. This is more of a problem of individuals living in cities not following guidelines and living in multiple family houses, not race. NE Calgary has/had the same problem with having spikes in cases over the rest of the city. 

Ontario has seen multiple thousands of vacant vaccine appointments for the elderly. Their lives will be in their hands at this point. It’s almost like they don’t care anymore. Time to open up vaccines to every age group country wide.


----------



## Good2Golf

I’m not being naive at all, but I’m also not prejudging sub-sub-sub-sets of Province/City/Municipality, particularly where ethnicity of COVID cases, AFAIK, isn’t available/provided to the public. Do you factually know the ethnic breakdown of COVID cases in Peel Region?  I haven’t seen a smaller breakdown than that, so why are you saying Brampton?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky.....just my opinion, but you desecrate everything I always thought was the best part of being a soldier.  Placing the weaker, regardless of age/race/creed behind the 'line' to be protected, even at the cost of our lives.  Yet you seem have no issue throwing these same people under the bus.....


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:


> Big problem in Ottawa are organised sports teams.  Too many are car pooling to practice and games and then players and parents gather after events.  Then they complain that little Johnny is suffering because he’ll never make then NHL if he can’t play.


While your anecdote might make you feel good to blame someone, it's not statistically based. Sports and Recreation outbreaks on the Ottawa Public Health website is less than 100 cases and in actual fact, workplaces are exponentially worse. There's also very little evidence that children are "super spreaders", ranting about children trying to enjoy their childhood is pretty ridiculous. By your logic we should shut down all public transit and taxi cabs.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The culture of the ethnicity that dominates Surry in BC, is one of large multi-generational families living together with strong need to socialize with the community, along with a large older portion that is not fluent in English has led to that area being the predominate driver of infections in the Lower Mainland. The culture and the practices do play a part. Hell if it was all Finns living here, we likely barely have a first wave....


----------



## Kilted

Quirky said:


> You have to be pretty naive not to figure out who lives in the third world of Brampton and Mississauga and overlaying google maps and Covid areas spikes. This is more of a problem of individuals living in cities not following guidelines and living in multiple family houses, not race. NE Calgary has/had the same problem with having spikes in cases over the rest of the city.
> 
> Ontario has seen multiple thousands of vacant vaccine appointments for the elderly. Their lives will be in their hands at this point. It’s almost like they don’t care anymore. Time to open up vaccines to every age group country wide.





Quirky said:


> You have to be pretty naive not to figure out who lives in the third world of Brampton and Mississauga and overlaying google maps and Covid areas spikes.


I feel like other people have been banned for less?


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> While your anecdote might make you feel good to blame someone, it's not statistically based. Sports and Recreation outbreaks on the Ottawa Public Health website is less than 100 cases and in actual fact, workplaces are exponentially worse. There's also very little evidence that children are "super spreaders", ranting about children trying to enjoy their childhood is pretty ridiculous. By your logic we should shut down all public transit and taxi cabs.


It’s the parents.  Not the kids.  It isn’t the sports and recreation itself.  It’s the get togethers after. Beer leagues are as much to blame as well.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-outbreaks-sports-1.5942991
		










						How one sports practice in Ottawa led to 89 COVID-19 cases and forced hundreds to self-isolate
					

One sports team practice in Ottawa this fall resulted in 89 cases of COVID-19, 445 high-risk contacts isolating and 10 sports teams forced to the sidelines.



					ottawa.ctvnews.ca
				




Denial is why we are where we are.


----------



## Loachman

Kilted said:


> I feel like other people have been banned for less?


The "third world" reference was inappropriate and I shall not be recommending Quirky for a position in our Diplomatic Corps, however reality cannot be ignored and the likelihood of greater spread within certain communities must be considered and hopefully prevented.

Until a little over a year ago, I had a twelve-member family of Syrian refugees living next door (I've never had better neighbours, and I'd much rather have them back than put up with the 100% Canadian rectum who succeeded them). The father and two eldest sons were working in general labour jobs (obviously, no ability to do that from home) and several younger children were in school. They were working extremely hard to support themselves, but their budget did not allow luxuries and they were rather cramped for space. The local Muslim community are close, in keeping with their culture and varying levels of English competency, and they all support each other.

Up until the latest Ontario lockdown, their mosque was still in operation to some degree. Whether it was running at normal or reduced capacity, I could not say, but there does seem to be some reluctance for politicians and media to criticize certain communities so it would not surprise me if they are being left alone - and I have no problem with that at all.

One person getting sick could easily, then, infect many others quite quickly.

Areas in other cities with much larger densities of immigrants from non-Western countries with large families and reliant on low-skilled jobs are even more vulnerable.


----------



## Loachman

Remius said:


> Denial is why we are where we are.


Well, that and the Chinese Communist Party's interest in dabbling with gain-of-function activities and willingness to exploit the unfortunate escape of one of its results...


----------



## dimsum

Loachman said:


> I had a twelve-member family of Syrian refugees living next door


I hope you got to try some of their food.  It's amazing.


----------



## Loachman

dimsum said:


> I hope you got to try some of their food.  It's amazing.


Yes. I'd often get a knock on my door to find either the father or one of the children holding a plate of something freshly made, and all of the local families extended invitations to a communal Iftar dinner one evening several years ago. This family was privately sponsored, and well-supported by their sponsors, who were also present. Some of these people had lived in Syria in better times, and spoke Arabic.

I did some minor furniture repairs for them in return, and fashioned a new handle for a bone-chopping hatchet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Loachman said:


> Yes. I'd often get a knock on my door to find either the father or one of the children holding a plate of something freshly made, and all of the local families extended invitations to a communal Iftar dinner one evening several years ago. This family was privately sponsored, and well-supported by their sponsors, who were also present. Some of these people had lived in Syria in better times, and spoke Arabic.
> 
> I did some minor furniture repairs for them in return, and fashioned a new handle for a bone-chopping hatchet.



We were in Toronto a couple of years ago and some Sikhs were out in front of the CN Tower... feeding people.

My kids, white bread Vancouver Island recluses, were freaked out of course but I hustled them up to the food truck and we had a great feast. 

Things that don't suck about Canada....


----------



## Messerschmitt

Pentagon unveils microchip that senses Covid in the body​








						Pentagon unveils sensor that detects Covid in the body
					

Invention inspired by huge virus outbreak on board USS Theodore Roosevelt




					www.independent.co.uk
				











						Military programs aiming to end pandemics forever
					

Bill Whitaker reports on the Pentagon projects that helped combat COVID-19 and may help end pandemics forever.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




If somebody would've told you this in person, you would've thought he is the biggest conspiracy nut. 
And lol, people thought the chip is in the vaccine hahaha.


----------



## Weinie

Messerschmitt said:


> Pentagon unveils microchip that senses Covid in the body​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pentagon unveils sensor that detects Covid in the body
> 
> 
> Invention inspired by huge virus outbreak on board USS Theodore Roosevelt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military programs aiming to end pandemics forever
> 
> 
> Bill Whitaker reports on the Pentagon projects that helped combat COVID-19 and may help end pandemics forever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbsnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If somebody would've told you this in person, you would've thought he is the biggest conspiracy nut.
> And lol, people thought the chip is in the vaccine hahaha.


From the first article:

"And they have also developed a revolutionary filter that can remove the virus from the patient’s blood through a dialysis machine."

If this is indeed true, then a whole host of diseases, from AIDS, to EBOLA, are within the realm of being managed to the point that they can be considered eradicated.


----------



## dapaterson

For all your zoom meetings, remember, the camera is on.  Even if you're the Member of Parliament for Pontiac.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382454912785735682


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> For all your zoom meetings, remember, the camera is on.  Even if you're the Member of Parliament for _*Pontiac.*_
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382454912785735682


Never ever liked anything from Pontiac,


----------



## Messerschmitt

We have reached global scrutiny.









						LILLEY: Trudeau's vaccine failure drawing global scrutiny
					

Justin Trudeau and his Liberal acolytes normally love it when he gets foreign media attention. Why wouldn’t they, it’s mostly been fawning for the past several…




					torontosun.com
				






> Trudeau says the UK is facing a very serious Third Wave, despite our restrictions and vaccinations. Why have we not been told this in the UK! How dare the UK govt keep this vital info from us! Heads must roll! [etc etc]


I love fake outrage


----------



## Loachman

Kelowna gym refusing new member applications from anyone who’s been vaccinated
		

Josh Duncan April 13, 2021

A Kelowna gym has announced that it won’t be taking new membership applications from anyone who’s received a COVID-19 vaccine until 2023 at the earliest.

Flow Academy offers classes in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, yoga, meditation and more, but for the foreseeable future those classes will only be available to those who haven’t been vaccinated.

A notice on the membership section of the gym’s website explains the decision.

“This decision was made after much discussion with other health, wellness and fitness-related facilities across Canada (both public and private), as well as liability insurance companies,” the message reads.

“To put it simply, the unknown health effects of the mRNA vaccines, as well as reported side effects such as viral shedding, seizures and death following the administration of these vaccines, are not covered by our liability.”

Interior Health is familiar with the gym, as the health authority said it has already issued an order and ticket to Flow Academy on back-to-back days in February for not complying with public health orders.

In a statement to NowMedia, IH expressed its disagreement with the gym’s stance on vaccinations.

“There is no public health basis for a policy excluding people who are immunized against COVID-19,” the statement explained. “Immunization prevents the spread of disease and protects patrons and staff.”

Flow Academy said that it will re-evaluate the policy "when clinical trials of this experimental injection are completed in 2023.”

NowMedia has reached out to the gym for further comment but we have not yet received a reply.


----------



## Remius

Loachman said:


> Kelowna gym refusing new member applications from anyone who’s been vaccinated
> 
> 
> Josh Duncan April 13, 2021
> 
> A Kelowna gym has announced that it won’t be taking new membership applications from anyone who’s received a COVID-19 vaccine until 2023 at the earliest.
> 
> Flow Academy offers classes in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, yoga, meditation and more, but for the foreseeable future those classes will only be available to those who haven’t been vaccinated.
> 
> A notice on the membership section of the gym’s website explains the decision.
> 
> “This decision was made after much discussion with other health, wellness and fitness-related facilities across Canada (both public and private), as well as liability insurance companies,” the message reads.
> 
> “To put it simply, the unknown health effects of the mRNA vaccines, as well as reported side effects such as viral shedding, seizures and death following the administration of these vaccines, are not covered by our liability.”
> 
> Interior Health is familiar with the gym, as the health authority said it has already issued an order and ticket to Flow Academy on back-to-back days in February for not complying with public health orders.
> 
> In a statement to NowMedia, IH expressed its disagreement with the gym’s stance on vaccinations.
> 
> “There is no public health basis for a policy excluding people who are immunized against COVID-19,” the statement explained. “Immunization prevents the spread of disease and protects patrons and staff.”
> 
> Flow Academy said that it will re-evaluate the policy "when clinical trials of this experimental injection are completed in 2023.”
> 
> NowMedia has reached out to the gym for further comment but we have not yet received a reply.


It will re evaluate the policy when it runs out of business...


----------



## Quirky

How do you even prove that anyone is NOT vaccinated? Just lie on your membership application. 

And BC complains about red plates in their province when they have their own idiots in-house.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Interesting....

One young journalist's experience writing obituaries for COVID-19 victims​ 
Tess Jieun Ha: Reaching out to people who lost loved ones to COVID-19 was a daunting assignment. But having the opportunity to describe the rich lives of Asian Canadians was an honour.

A short obituary for Kyu-Chin “Jim” Hahn was published in a Korean-language newspaper called the _Korea Times Daily_. I called the newspaper, and the reporter I spoke with generously reached out to Jim’s son and put the two of us in touch. His son, Bob, called me a few days later. There was no hiding that I was nervous during the phone call, but Bob remained calm and gentle throughout the conversation. We agreed that email would be the best way for us to communicate; I would send him questions and he’d write me long replies talking about his dad’s 90 years of life. I also found an autobiography Jim wrote for the alumni website of Seoul National University’s faculty of agriculture. I learned that he pursued agriculture at a young age with dreams of helping developing countries prosper; he achieved the dream when he became a UN consultant. I learned that he immigrated to Canada because, as a veteran of the Korean War, he didn’t want his children to experience war the way he had. I felt grief for his unfortunate death and I began to feel passionate about sharing people’s stories.









						One young journalist's experience writing obituaries for COVID-19 victims - Macleans.ca
					

Tess Jieun Ha: Reaching out to people who lost loved ones to COVID-19 was a daunting assignment. But having the opportunity to describe the rich lives of Asian Canadians was an honour.




					www.macleans.ca


----------



## Messerschmitt

B.1.1.7 variant not linked to more serious infections: study​








						B.1.1.7 variant not linked to more serious infections: study
					

The B.1.1.7 variant of the novel coronavirus does not increase the severity of COVID-19 compared to other strains, according to new research.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




But I #support more lockdowns! All summer!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Messerschmitt said:


> But I #support more lockdowns! All summer!


That's wonderful.


----------



## Quirky

Messerschmitt said:


> B.1.1.7 variant not linked to more serious infections: study​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.1.1.7 variant not linked to more serious infections: study
> 
> 
> The B.1.1.7 variant of the novel coronavirus does not increase the severity of COVID-19 compared to other strains, according to new research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I #support more lockdowns! All summer!



Can we just lockdown Ontario and Quebec from the rest of Canada? Even post pandemic....


----------



## PuckChaser

Its almost like viruses mutate to become more virulent but less potent until they become a common cold.


----------



## Kilted

Loachman said:


> Kelowna gym refusing new member applications from anyone who’s been vaccinated
> 
> 
> Josh Duncan April 13, 2021
> 
> A Kelowna gym has announced that it won’t be taking new membership applications from anyone who’s received a COVID-19 vaccine until 2023 at the earliest.
> 
> Flow Academy offers classes in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, kickboxing, yoga, meditation and more, but for the foreseeable future those classes will only be available to those who haven’t been vaccinated.
> 
> A notice on the membership section of the gym’s website explains the decision.
> 
> “This decision was made after much discussion with other health, wellness and fitness-related facilities across Canada (both public and private), as well as liability insurance companies,” the message reads.
> 
> “To put it simply, the unknown health effects of the mRNA vaccines, as well as reported side effects such as viral shedding, seizures and death following the administration of these vaccines, are not covered by our liability.”
> 
> Interior Health is familiar with the gym, as the health authority said it has already issued an order and ticket to Flow Academy on back-to-back days in February for not complying with public health orders.
> 
> In a statement to NowMedia, IH expressed its disagreement with the gym’s stance on vaccinations.
> 
> “There is no public health basis for a policy excluding people who are immunized against COVID-19,” the statement explained. “Immunization prevents the spread of disease and protects patrons and staff.”
> 
> Flow Academy said that it will re-evaluate the policy "when clinical trials of this experimental injection are completed in 2023.”
> 
> NowMedia has reached out to the gym for further comment but we have not yet received a reply.


Given the number of protected grounds that make an individual more at risk of Covid, I think that a human rights challenge to this would be successful. It also might be in the Federal/Provincial governments best interests to introduce specific legislation addressing this.


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> Its almost like viruses mutate to become more virulent but less potent until they become a common cold.


The article doesn't say the variant is any less "potent"...  just that the resultant COVID-19 is not _more _severe.


----------



## PuckChaser

mick said:


> The article doesn't say the variant is any less "potent"...  just that the resultant COVID-19 is not _more _severe.


Right, and depending on your age group COVID-19 isn't severe at all. Almost like the ICU stats doubling for younger Canadians meme. If you double an incredibly low number, it's still an incredibly low number. Remember, despite under 60 years being 80.6% of the cases nationally, they're only 30.6% of the hospitalizations and 4.3% of case fatalities.

My age group (30 to 39) has a 1.8% chance of hospitalization, a 0.2% chance of ICU admission and a 0.005% chance of dying. My risk level is significantly higher jumping out of airplanes, fast roping from helicopters or driving around in rusty LSVWs at work. We've all been gaslit to believe COVID is equally deadly for everyone, when it's incredibly age-skewed and now individuals can no longer make rational judgements on risk. Just look at the AZ vaccine issues. You've got a higher chance to get into a fatal car accident driving to your vaccination appointment than getting a blood clot, but entire countries are shutting down its use.


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> Right, and depending on your age group COVID-19 isn't severe at all. Almost like the ICU stats doubling for younger Canadians meme. If you double an incredibly low number, it's still an incredibly low number. Remember, despite under 60 years being 80.6% of the cases nationally, they're only 30.6% of the hospitalizations and 4.3% of case fatalities.
> 
> My age group (30 to 39) has a 1.8% chance of hospitalization, a 0.2% chance of ICU admission and a 0.005% chance of dying. My risk level is significantly higher jumping out of airplanes, fast roping from helicopters or driving around in rusty LSVWs at work. We've all been gaslit to believe COVID is equally deadly for everyone, when it's incredibly age-skewed and now individuals can no longer make rational judgements on risk. Just look at the AZ vaccine issues. You've got a higher chance to get into a fatal car accident driving to your vaccination appointment than getting a blood clot, but entire countries are shutting down its use.


First of all, really good post.

I'm in the same age group as you - I think a lot of us are aware that the risks to ourselves are quite small, even if we contract the virus. That said, I am aware of the greater risk associated with passing it on to older / higher-risk loved  ones.

While the article states that the associated disease is no more severe, the fact that the virus is more easily transmissible and is found in a greater number of younger people is concerning.


----------



## OldSolduer

PuckChaser said:


> Right, and depending on your age group COVID-19 isn't severe at all. Almost like the ICU stats doubling for younger Canadians meme. If you double an incredibly low number, it's still an incredibly low number. Remember, despite under 60 years being 80.6% of the cases nationally, they're only 30.6% of the hospitalizations and 4.3% of case fatalities.
> 
> My age group (30 to 39) has a 1.8% chance of hospitalization, a 0.2% chance of ICU admission and a 0.005% chance of dying. My risk level is significantly higher jumping out of airplanes, fast roping from helicopters or driving around in rusty LSVWs at work. We've all been gaslit to believe COVID is equally deadly for everyone, when it's incredibly age-skewed and now individuals can no longer make rational judgements on risk. Just look at the AZ vaccine issues. You've got a higher chance to get into a fatal car accident driving to your vaccination appointment than getting a blood clot, but entire countries are shutting down its use.


Here in Manitoba when a younger person (20-45 ish) dies its huge news and our provincial powers tut tut us about gathering etc. What is not reported is the co morbidity and underlying health issues the individuals had.


----------



## Remius

Well in some cases, those countries halting the astra vaccine have enough of the other vaccines.  So the halting it’s use is no big deal.  For some though they likely should risk manage.  Nobody is being gas lit for anything.  Not sure what you read or where you get your info.  

They’ve been pretty upfront about who and what age group gets affected more severely and who is at risk.  

Where have the experts once said it is deadly in equal measures for everyone?


----------



## PuckChaser

mick said:


> First of all, really good post.
> 
> I'm in the same age group as you - I think a lot of us are aware that the risks to ourselves are quite small, even if we contract the virus. That said, I am aware of the greater risk associated with passing it on to older / higher-risk loved  ones.
> 
> While the article states that the associated disease is no more severe, the fact that the virus is more easily transmissible and is found in a greater number of younger people is concerning.


If the Government and media had focused on the risk to others instead of pushing a blanket 5% Case Fatality Rate for everyone narrative, I really think there'd be a lot less vaccine hesitancy and acceptance of reduction of social gatherings that are causing spread. When all everyone hears is doom and gloom that's not reflected in the actual science, they start to ignore measures designed to protect everyone and default back to "screw those old guys, I'll do what I want".


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> If the Government and media had focused on the risk to others instead of pushing a blanket 5% Case Fatality Rate for everyone narrative, I really think there'd be a lot less vaccine hesitancy and acceptance of reduction of social gatherings that are causing spread. When all everyone hears is doom and gloom that's not reflected in the actual science, they start to ignore measures designed to protect everyone and default back to "screw those old guys, I'll do what I want".


I'm not sure I follow your link between media coverage and vaccine hesitancy, although I would agree that AZ reporting is over-emphasizing the minute risk of blood-clots, which is not helpful.

I suggest that those who think "screw those old guys" would be thinking that way regardless of what the public health officials are saying / recommending.

While public health recommendations have certainly changed over the past year, I think the _message_ has been pretty consistent: restrictions are to safeguard the healthcare system and protect those most at-risk.  

I do think that the various governments could have communicated how restrictions achieve that goal much more clearly.


----------



## PuckChaser

mick said:


> I'm not sure I follow your link between media coverage and vaccine hesitancy, although I would agree that AZ reporting is over-emphasizing the minute risk of blood-clots, which is not helpful.


It's not overt, but gaslighting never is. Canadians really don't trust media https://www.cbc.ca/news/editorsblog/editor-blog-trust-1.5936535, so those folks who keep seeing news articles about how serious COVID is to the younger generation tend not to trust the information. If they automatically assume the opposite of what's stated in the article, then those folks are going to lean towards not needing the vaccine.

I do think our Public Health team messaging has been fairly clear (not wavering and overly politicized like the US), it's the media making clickbait news articles out of tragedies that muddies the waters. They should have just reported what Public Health officials were saying, instead of trying to find a new alarmist with a MD every day to make another article about the end of the world. It's even more evident now with the variant news reporting that younger folks are making a huge jump in ICU cases, but there's been 2 studies from France in the Lancet completely debunking that myth.


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> I do think our Public Health team messaging has been fairly clear (not wavering and overly politicized like the US), it's the media making clickbait news articles out of tragedies that muddies the waters. They should have just reported what Public Health officials were saying, instead of trying to find a new alarmist with a MD every day to make another article about the end of the world. It's even more evident now with the variant news reporting that younger folks are making a huge jump in ICU cases, but there's been 2 studies from France in the Lancet completely debunking that myth.


I agree that the public messaging can get lost in over-reporting.  I'm sure there is "COVID fatigue" due to non-stop coverage.

While the 2 Lancet studies debunk alleged increased mortality and increased severity of symptoms associated with B.1.1.7, they do confirm that this variant is more transmissible.

Logically, a more transmissible virus will lead to more infection, and proportionally, more ICU admissions.

Interestingly, lockdowns seem to be somewhat effective.  Of course, I could be wrong in my interpretation.

"Emerging evidence exists of increased transmissibility of B.1.1.7, and we found increased virus load by proxy for B.1.1.7 in our data. We did not identify an association of the variant with severe disease in this hospitalised cohort."  DEFINE_ME

"In summary, after examining the effect of the proportion of infections with the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 variant on COVID-19 symptoms, disease course, rates of reinfection, and transmissibility in the UK, we found no change in symptoms or their duration. Reinfections were rare (0·7% of app users) and there was no evidence of increased reinfection rates associated with the prevalence of the B.1.1.7 variant. We found an increase in Rt for the B.1.1.7 variant, but Rt fell below 1 during lockdown, even in regions with very high (>80%) proportions of infections with the B.1.1.7 variant."  DEFINE_ME

edit: the links to The Lancet reports seem to work, despite how they appear


----------



## PuckChaser

Right, but the increase in ICU admissions would still follow the same curve skewed towards the 60+ crowd because the severity hasn't changed between Wuhan virus and UK variant. At the end of the day, cases only indicate transmissibility and shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum. It matters more about who gets COVID, not how many alone, because that's the real indicator of stress being placed on the system.


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> At the end of the day, cases only indicate transmissibility and shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum. It matters more about who gets COVID, not how many alone, because that's the real indicator of stress being placed on the system.


I agree with the quote above....however....if B.1.1.7 follows the same curve as the original virus, that means more people in all age and risk groups will be infected, and more demand will be placed on the system, even if it is just more people from a few specific demographic

If ON is asking for healthcare workers from other provinces to bolster their stressed system, I'd say doom and gloom is probably justified in that province, at least for now.


----------



## Quirky

Can’t drive across the border to Gatineau but can hop on a plane to India and back. Clown world logic.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

When one of those Govts most important priority is not appearing racist its easy to see the problem.


----------



## daftandbarmy

That’s a big deal...

India’s Heath System has Collapsed

“We have collapsed, Maharashtra is sinking and other states will follow.”
The starkness of these words from Dr Jalil Parkar, a top pulmonologist in Mumbai’s Lilavati Hospital, silenced me in a way that little has through 2020 and 2021, when most of my journalistic energy has been spent on reporting the Covid crisis on the ground. “This is worse than World War Two,” Parkar said, lashing out in rage and hurt at how doctors and health workers are still targeted by angry and distraught families as well as armchair commentators “who sit behind their laptops and in their ivory towers”.









						India’s health system has collapsed
					

As human tragedy unfolds, there is a shortage of everything — oxygen, drugs, beds, vaccines, even cremation space




					www-hindustantimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Mick said:


> First of all, really good post.
> 
> I'm in the same age group as you - I think a lot of us are aware that the risks to ourselves are quite small, even if we contract the virus. That said, I am aware of the greater risk associated with passing it on to older / higher-risk loved  ones.
> 
> While the article states that the associated disease is no more severe, the fact that the virus is more easily transmissible and is found in a greater number of younger people is concerning.


While I realize that anecdote is not evidence, I just spoke this week to a healthy, physically fit, mid- 20s Sqn member who was just back at work after contracting the Brazilian variant COVID 19. While he was not hospitalized, he related that when he was actively ill, it was the worst three days of his life- he did not care if he lived or died.

if I can avoid catching this- I will.


----------



## PuckChaser

I supported 2 subordinates in the same age bracket through their isolation periods with the original Wuhan strain, and they were fairly sick for that same 3 day period. Those studies in the Lancet where of a large survey of positive cases, and showed no statistically significant increase in severity from Wuhan strain to B117. Statistically your Sqn member would have probably felt the exact same regardless of what variant or original strain they got.

Just to avoid a double post, I wanted to circle back to @Mick when we discussed the media coverage and how it's hurting not helping the situation. Although this video is from the US, our media in Canada is inextricably linked to the US so there are some significant parallels. He makes some fantastic points about the politicization of COVID-19, and the hyperbole that is being thrown.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1383296276020617224


----------



## mariomike

Guys where i used to work are working 64 hours in the last four days. Almost all the calls high acuity Covid.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Guys where i used to work are working 64 hours in the last four days. Almost all the calls high acuity Covid.


I heard an interview today on CBC Radio 'White Coats Black Art' show, where they interviewed a GTA ICU nurse.  She said the big problem isn't necessarily beds or ventilators but trained staff.   They are pulling in people who haven't worked in critical/acute care for years if at all.  ICU staff are handling more patients at a time than they normally would as well as trying to keep families in the loop because they can't visit.  After a year of a steady diet of overtime on top of 12-hour shifts, they are fried.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> After a year of a steady diet of overtime on top of 12-hour shifts, they are fried.


We could take the cash, or as many did, bank the lieu at time and a half for use at a later date. I understand that is what some are doing now. Lieu was a good way to prevent burn out.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Health Minister dodges questions about banning India flights​Link

_



			33 flights carrying infected passengers arrived in Canada from Delhi so far in April
		
Click to expand...

_


> Federal Health Minister Patty Hajdu says she’s confident of this country’s pandemic border protections, even as Canada deals with spikes of infected passengers arriving daily from world hot spots.
> 
> 
> And Hajdu remained cool to restricting Canada’s numerous daily flights from COVID-wracked India, where a devastating second wave has coincided with a new “double-mutant” variant.




Only 33 *fights *with infected passengers in 17 days so far.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> We could take the cash, or as many did, bank the lieu at time and a half for use at a later date. I understand that is what some are doing now. Lieu was a good way to prevent burn out.



It would depend on the terms of their MOU.  We could bank lieu time but the bank had a  year end maximum (can't remember what) with excess paid out.  I can't imagine getting lieu time off being very easy for many of them and, after a year plus of this, a big lieu bank would seem like a cruel tease.


----------



## Good2Golf

Ontario lowering minimum age for AstraZeneca-Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to 40 from 55​
Article Link


> Shot will be offered at pharmacies, primary care settings starting Tuesday
> Samantha Beattie · CBC News · Posted: Apr 18, 2021 7:23 PM ET | Last Updated: 18 minutes ago
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario will start offering the AstraZeneca-Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to people 40 years of age and over starting Tuesday, a spokesperson for Health Minister Christine Elliott said. (Alberto Pezzali/The Associated Press)
> 
> Ontario will start offering the AstraZeneca-Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to people 40 years of age and over starting Tuesday.
> 
> A spokesperson for Health Minister Christine Elliott said the shot will be offered at pharmacies and primary care settings.
> 
> In a statement Sunday, Alexandra Hilkene said the province made the call based on "current supply" of the vaccine.
> 
> Before the announcement, the vaccine was only available to people aged 55 and older in Ontario following recommendations from the National Advisory Council on Immunization (NACI) earlier this spring.
> On Sunday, however, the federal government said Ontario was free to expand eligibility for the AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccine to any adult over the age of 18 as some pharmacists warned they had doses sitting idle because of the age restrictions.
> 
> "Provinces and territories are free to use AstraZeneca in any population over 18 per Health Canada's license for use in Canada," federal Health Minister Patty Hajdu told reporters.
> 
> Before Hadju's comments, Premier Doug Ford's office said it was waiting for a federal decision before expanding AstraZeneca-Oxford eligibility from its current 55 and older age restriction, even as it stressed the need for an urgent increase in vaccine supply.
> 
> "While we wait for a federal decision on the lowering of the age limit for AstraZeneca, and in response to the latest cut in Moderna shipments, the premier has begun reaching out to consulates to try and secure more vaccine supply for Ontario from our international allies," Ivana Yelich, Ford's press secretary, said in a statement on Sunday.
> 
> "Vaccines are our only way out of this pandemic and the premier will exhaust every avenue he has in order to get more needles into arms of Ontarians sooner."
> 
> With files from Sabrina Jonas and Natasha MacDonald-Dupuis


----------



## PuckChaser

No reason to stop its use in the first place, the risk of complications is incredibly low. We've become unable to accept any risk since COVID started, and the members of the medical community who believe we can "stop COVID" AKA no one ever dies from COVID again are part of the problem.


----------



## dimsum

PuckChaser said:


> No reason to stop its use in the first place, the risk of complications is incredibly low. We've become unable to accept any risk since COVID started, and the members of the medical community who believe we can "stop COVID" AKA no one ever dies from COVID again are part of the problem.


Wait what?  The original messaging was "flatten the curve", etc.  ie. not make it exponentially worse.  

Who is talking about stopping Covid?


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> It would depend on the terms of their MOU.  We could bank lieu time but the bank had a  year end maximum (can't remember what) with excess paid out.  I can't imagine getting lieu time off being very easy for many of them and, after a year plus of this, a big lieu bank would seem like a cruel tease.


Right. We could accumulate Lieu Time for Designated Holidays and overtime to a maximum of 96 hours at any time. Those 96 hours were replenishable. But, using your LT was "subject to operational requirements".

As you say, if you can't use your Lieu Time, it really is a cruel tease.

I suppose it's been "all hands on deck" in ICU's , so burnout is likely getting pretty bad heading into this latest Wave.


----------



## PuckChaser

dimsum said:


> Wait what?  The original messaging was "flatten the curve", etc.  ie. not make it exponentially worse.
> 
> Who is talking about stopping Covid?


A whole bunch of talking head experts are, and the staunch refusal of anyone in Government/Public Health circles to admit that it's pretty clear COVID-19 is endemic, and has a seasonal curve. I'd put money on cases dropping significantly in June/July/August, only to pick back up again (slowly since that's when we'll actually have vaccines in this country) just like it did last year. Here's some news articles pushing Zero COVID:

Why experts say B.C. should get as close to ‘COVID-zero’ as possible 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/2021-canadian-shield-covid-approach-1.5859101
Canada Is One Big Pandemic Response Experiment. It Proves ‘Zero COVID’ Is Best | The Tyee
‘Covid-zero’ is an idea gaining momentum. Could it work in Canada?


----------



## YZT580

Most of Canada is in a punishing third wave. How did it come to this? - Macleans.ca
					

Justin Ling: We are here because politicians have ignored the core facts of the COVID-19 virus and the main strategies that will clearly fight the pandemic




					www.macleans.ca
				




One of the better editorials on why.  Agree or not it provides much food for thought


----------



## RangerRay

The headline doesn’t quite do the article justice. It also discusses our government’s crappy messaging that is leading to vaccine hesitancy. 









						Jen Gerson: Sorry, vaccine shoppers. Now you're the ones blowing this for the rest of us
					

You have a moral duty to get the first vaccine made available to you




					theline.substack.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Tyee has spoken....

Canada’s Crazy Pandemic Response​ 
As the third wave built and now may drown us, our leaders keep blathering about ‘balance.’​
If you want to know how crazy the COVID-19 crisis has become in Canada, just listen for a moment to Quebec Premier François Legault.

“We’ve had no choice but to lock down, reopen, lock down, reopen,” protested the premier last week as he acknowledged how fed up people are with Canada’s disastrous yo-yo approach to COVID-19.

“The idea is to try to find a balance,” added Legault.  “When we lock down, it’s to protect people’s physical health; when we reopen, it’s to help their mental health.”

“Some people think there are too many restrictions, others say they aren’t enough,” added Legault who talks like the political riddle he is. “I would like to please everyone, but that’s not possible.”

With leaders like Legault, who needs government?             

Legault, who seems divorced from reality, has pleased no one because his ineffective COVID-19 rollercoaster has achieved nothing except drag his province into a public health and economic hell with no clear exit.

For example, when you rely on your hospitals rather than public health measures for pandemic control, you should not be surprised that 84,000 health-care workers have had infections or that half of those infections have occurred in Quebec.

*Widespread political malpractice*

What kind of leader cultivates such repeated failures? Answer: the delusional premiers of Canada’s most populous provinces.

Legault’s pitiful comments typify a broadening crisis in this nation: a total abdication of responsibility in the face of a clear and evolving emergency. We need decisive and just leadership, and six premiers have not measured up to the task.

Canada just had its worst week ever for new COVID-19 infections. Yet everything about the third wave was foretold and preventable.

“A disaster, freely and KNOWINGLY chosen by an elected government, is not someone else’s emergency,” tartly noted public health and legal expert Amir Attaran.

This chosen “catastrophe” starts at the top with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Remarkably, he still does not consider the pandemic an emergency requiring national standards, national goals, national direction or a co-ordinated response. Right. That would require leadership and hard decisions.









						Canada’s Crazy Pandemic Response | The Tyee
					

As the third wave has built and now may drown us, our leaders keep blathering about ‘balance.’




					thetyee.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

...well...I mean if the federal government keeps on letting in COVID-positive flights into Canada from, for example, Delhi, how bad can things really be?  🤔


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

No Govt. can do the 'right thing' with the trapeze balancing act, when this virus keeps changing the wind speed and direction.

Yes they certainly haven't done everything right, but when no one in the world [except smug after the fact journalists it seems] knows what is right, its lets just hope and pray this isn't a repeat of the Spanish Flu, and so far it hasn't been.   Does it suck,...sure,...but it could be a lot worse.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Good2Golf said:


> ...well...I mean if the federal government keeps on letting in COVID-positive flights into Canada from, for example, Delhi, how bad can things really be? 🤔





Quebec confirms first case of 'double mutant' variant from India​The B.1.617 variant believed to be fueling the pandemic in India
Link


----------



## Good2Golf

Jarnhamar said:


> Quebec confirms first case of 'double mutant' variant from India​The B.1.617 variant believed to be fueling the pandemic in India
> Link



I mean, it’s not like the Federal Government could have seen that coming and taken action to shield Canadians from B.1.617...


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Quebec confirms first case of 'double mutant' variant from India​The B.1.617 variant believed to be fueling the pandemic in India
> Link



Our international quarantine measures seem to be working like any other government program.


----------



## PMedMoe

It's about time: Canada banning flights from India, Pakistan for 30 days


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> Our international quarantine measures seem to be working like any other government program.


----------



## Messerschmitt

It's absolutely crazy the level of censorship the big tech is doing, to fit the narrative.

If you use google, it's impossible to find out that the Centre territorial d’Information indépendante et d’Avis pharmaceutiques (CTIAP), a regional independent drug assessment center in France, has published a report showing that none of the four Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) “vaccinations” currently being administered are safe or effective because all of them received emergency use authorization (EUA) with insufficient clinical testing.

CTIAP report article: French drug assessment center demands removal of all four widely used COVID vaccines

I google CTIAP french drug assessment, and google gave NO results. I used DuckDuckGO, and a bunch of news websites popped out, including the above.

The vaccination is also correctly used using quotation marks. A vaccine is suppose to provide immunity, something all the vaccines on the market do not. As such, vaccine is incorrectly used as it's mainly a treatment (prevent serious development that can end you up in the hospital).

And some wonder why there is so much distrust when anything that is remotely negative about this campaign is swept under the rug and silenced. No discussion, no debate. I realize many want this pandemic to be done with, including myself as I have my family far away and I need to travel, but is it really ok to just be pushing it with the head in the sand?


----------



## dapaterson

So Google filters out batshit crazy disreputable search results, and that provides confirmation of your biases.

Right.  Got it.


----------



## Messerschmitt

dapaterson said:


> So Google filters out batshit crazy disreputable search results, and that provides confirmation of your biases.
> 
> Right.  Got it.


So CTIAP is batshit crazy? The French government should shut it down then. You seem to be the type of person who are absolutely ok with no debate or discussion allowed and mandate that the narrative is the only way, everyone else dare think anything else is the batshit crazy. Very good to know.

Maybe you would like to go to Glasgow and tell this mum while looking into her eyes that she is also batshit crazy








						Scots mum's legs erupt in blisters after vaccine but she urges others to get jab
					

A MUM whose legs erupted in a rash and blisters after having the coronavirus jab is urging others to get their vaccine. Sarah Beuckmann had the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine in March and said that at …




					www.thescottishsun.co.uk
				



Daily mail UK link if that website is "disreputable source": Mother's legs erupt in blisters 'after getting AstraZeneca's jab'

Yes, it's a case in thousands. But you don't see it covered by any news media, especially the mainstream canadian ones. However, as soon as one case in thousands of a person in their 30's end up in the hospital because of COVID is breaking news.


----------



## Kilted

Messerschmitt said:


> It's absolutely crazy the level of censorship the big tech is doing, to fit the narrative.
> 
> If you use google, it's impossible to find out that the Centre territorial d’Information indépendante et d’Avis pharmaceutiques (CTIAP), a regional independent drug assessment center in France, has published a report showing that none of the four Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) “vaccinations” currently being administered are safe or effective because all of them received emergency use authorization (EUA) with insufficient clinical testing.
> 
> CTIAP report article: French drug assessment center demands removal of all four widely used COVID vaccines
> 
> I google CTIAP french drug assessment, and google gave NO results. I used DuckDuckGO, and a bunch of news websites popped out, including the above.
> 
> The vaccination is also correctly used using quotation marks. A vaccine is suppose to provide immunity, something all the vaccines on the market do not. As such, vaccine is incorrectly used as it's mainly a treatment (prevent serious development that can end you up in the hospital).
> 
> And some wonder why there is so much distrust when anything that is remotely negative about this campaign is swept under the rug and silenced. No discussion, no debate. I realize many want this pandemic to be done with, including myself as I have my family far away and I need to travel, but is it really ok to just be pushing it with the head in the sand?


I found it right away on multiple search engines including google.  That being said, I'm not going to waste my time reading it.  The media likes to use big words like demands and blasts to describe no authority to demand or change anything, its just a waste of time.  For example: someone blasts government over x.  It almost makes it sound like the government is supposed to answer to/ or care about the complaints made by one person.  The media is so good at making so much noise and distracting so many people, it's a surprise that any actual news actually makes it to the public.

I really don't think that freedom of the press was ever suppose to include the various micro-agency's twisting the truth to meet their needs.  It may have not been as much of an issue before social media, but now that everyone is connected to it almost 24/7, it has the ability to do incredible damage. Unfortunately, a good number of people will believe anything they read and have grown to mistrust the more reliable sources. Even without foreign actors, terrorists (domestic and foreign), and conspiracists there is still significant damage being done by your average person who thinks that they are a journalist.


----------



## dimsum

Messerschmitt said:


> Daily mail UK link if that website is "disreputable source"


The Daily Mail (or Daily Fail, depending on your stance) is the same level of tabloid "journalism" as the Scottish Sun, which you also quoted.


----------



## PMedMoe

I wouldn't rely on _anything_ from Life Site News (rated as a questionable source) , any UK Sun newspaper (rated as mixed for factual reporting) or The Daily Mail (as stated above, its' a tabloid).

I also Googled CTIAP and got results as well. Not sure how accurate Google's translation is though.

CTIAP seems to be unit of the hospital in Cholet, France and appears to have been created in 2015.


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> The vaccination is also correctly used using quotation marks. *A vaccine is suppose to provide immunity, something all the vaccines on the market do not.* As such, vaccine is incorrectly used as it's mainly a treatment (prevent serious development that can end you up in the hospital).


So, I wonder why nobody says this about the typhoid "vaccine" which is not 100% effective?

Oh wait, because there's no conspiracy about that.   

Edit to add: I don't think there's ever been a vaccine that's 100% effective (I could be wrong), but people are only now having an issue with this?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

PMedMoe said:


> So, I wonder why nobody says this about the typhoid "vaccine" which is not 100% effective?
> 
> Oh wait, because there's no conspiracy about that.
> 
> Edit to add: I don't think there's ever been a vaccine that's 100% effective (I could be wrong), but people are only now having an issue with this?


I am with you- cannot think of a vaccine that is 100% effective.

We routinely accept flu vaccines that are 60% effective and think that is pretty good.

To have claims (which seems to be holding true with real world data) that mRNA vaccines are 90-95% effective against COVID is next to unprecedented.


----------



## mariomike

Kilted said:


> Unfortunately, a good number of people will believe anything they read and have grown to mistrust the more reliable sources.


"Alternative facts".



> We routinely accept flu vaccines that are 60% effective and think that is pretty good.



I would have accepted flu vaccine anyway. But, our employer did not offer us a choice.

Something I learned only a few months ago from my mother was my great-grandfather died in the 1918 flu epidemic.

Vaccines save lives. Not just your own.


----------



## lenaitch

Messerschmitt said:


> The vaccination is also correctly used using quotation marks. A vaccine is suppose to provide immunity, something all the vaccines on the market do not. As such, vaccine is incorrectly used as it's mainly a treatment (prevent serious development that can end you up in the hospital).



You're letting the prefect get in the way of the good.  I can't speak for the link, but this:

_Vaccines are designed to generate an immune response that will protect the vaccinated individual during future exposures to the disease. Individual immune systems, however, are different enough that in some cases, a person’s immune system will not generate an adequate response. As a result, he or she will not be effectively protected after immunization._​​_That said, the effectiveness of most vaccines is high. After receiving the second dose of the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps and rubella) or the standalone measles vaccine, 99.7% of vaccinated individuals are immune to measles. The inactivated polio vaccine offers 99% effectiveness after three doses. The varicella (chickenpox) vaccine is between 85% and 90% effective in preventing all varicella infections, but 100% effective in preventing moderate and severe chicken pox._​
The fact that we have multiple vaccines in such a comparatively short with, so far, relatively few side effects is pretty much amazing.



Kilted said:


> I really don't think that freedom of the press was ever suppose to include the various micro-agency's twisting the truth to meet their needs.



And everyone with a smartphone camera calling themselves 'media' or 'jounalist'.


----------



## FJAG

dimsum said:


> The Daily Mail (or Daily Fail, depending on your stance) is the same level of tabloid "journalism" as the Scottish Sun, which you also quoted.


But it's so much fun! What would I do without my daily dose of Piers? or another expose from yet another royal scullery maid telling me how much better Kate is than Megan?

Seriously though I find quite often when they do articles on things happening in the US or Canada that their reports are more detailed than our local stuff. They must have a good bunch of sources on this side of the pond.

🍻


----------



## Gunnar

PMedMoe said:


> I wouldn't rely on _anything_ from Life Site News (rated as a questionable source) , any UK Sun newspaper (rated as mixed for factual reporting) or The Daily Mail (as stated above, its' a tabloid).
> 
> I also Googled CTIAP and got results as well. Not sure how accurate Google's translation is though.
> 
> CTIAP seems to be unit of the hospital in Cholet, France and appears to have been created in 2015.


And if you're worried about who sets the "ratings" of questionability, I _personally_ have found Life Site News to be highly questionable, and the Daily Mail is indeed a tabloid.  Sometimes right, sometimes wrong, but ALWAYS sensational.

When news through traditional channels is highly structured to provide little or no information you MUST be highly critical of what you read in alternative news sources or it simply becomes a free for all rumour mill.  By all means, research alternative viewpoints, but check them for rigor, and cross check their facts in other locations as well.  There are people making up news sites out of thin air, simply because they can.  There are people pushing their own agendas as an adjunct to the "alternative viewpoint" they claim to support.  Remember, an alternative doesn't necessarily guarantee truth.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Looks like a Space X trajectory...


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:


> So Google filters out batshit crazy disreputable search results, and that provides confirmation of your biases.
> 
> Right.  Got it.


That's not what he said, so I wouldn't say "Got it".  

And there isn't anything wrong with things being open to discussion and debate.  Ironic that someone has to point that out on a 'discussion forum'...  

A batshit crazy conspiracy theory would be Elvis created the virus because he's racist towards Chinese people, and his evil plot got out of hand. Noting there 'may' (or may not be) be some interesting consequences down the road isn't batshit crazy, and there isn't anything inherently wrong with mentioning it.  

0.02


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Looks like a Space X trajectory...
> 
> View attachment 64999


Whatever they were doing in January & February...should have kept doing it


----------



## CBH99

Messerschmitt said:


> So CTIAP is batshit crazy? The French government should shut it down then. You seem to be the type of person who are absolutely ok with no debate or discussion allowed and mandate that the narrative is the only way, everyone else dare think anything else is the batshit crazy. Very good to know.
> 
> Maybe you would like to go to Glasgow and tell this mum while looking into her eyes that she is also batshit crazy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scots mum's legs erupt in blisters after vaccine but she urges others to get jab
> 
> 
> A MUM whose legs erupted in a rash and blisters after having the coronavirus jab is urging others to get their vaccine. Sarah Beuckmann had the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine in March and said that at …
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thescottishsun.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daily mail UK link if that website is "disreputable source": Mother's legs erupt in blisters 'after getting AstraZeneca's jab'
> 
> Yes, it's a case in thousands. But you don't see it covered by any news media, especially the mainstream canadian ones. However, as soon as one case in thousands of a person in their 30's end up in the hospital because of COVID is breaking news.


In regards to the side effect of getting the vaccination, to be fair - that could happen to almost anyone, with any vaccine.  My sister got a pretty routine vaccination before travelling 2 years ago, her entire body erupted in a BRUTAL rash overnight.  It went away fairly quickly.

People will have some random reactions to the vaccine, that's just a part of life.  And it isn't limited to Covid vaccines.  I don't think 'those types' of reactions are really newsworthy, as it's no different than having a mild reaction to a flu vaccine.

And I do agree with you that the media is biased in what it reports and how it reports it -- I agree there is a narrative.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

True......one of the needles we got in my basic back in 78 (think it was yellow fever) , made me unbelievably sick for a night and next day.


----------



## Pelorus

I got vaccinated for Yellow Fever a few years ago. Ended up with an uncomfortable lump that felt about as big and as hard as a half golf ball at the injection site. 

Whenever a health professional asks me prior to a shot if I've ever had a reaction to a vaccine before, the Med Tech/Nurse response upon finding out it was to that specific vaccine is always along the lines of "oh yeah, that one will get you".

Still preferable to getting jaundice when your liver stops working properly.


----------



## Messerschmitt

CBH99 said:


> In regards to the side effect of getting the vaccination, to be fair - that could happen to almost anyone, with any vaccine.  My sister got a pretty routine vaccination before travelling 2 years ago, her entire body erupted in a BRUTAL rash overnight.  It went away fairly quickly.
> 
> People will have some random reactions to the vaccine, that's just a part of life.  And it isn't limited to Covid vaccines.  I don't think 'those types' of reactions are really newsworthy, as it's no different than having a mild reaction to a flu vaccine.
> 
> And I do agree with you that the media is biased in what it reports and how it reports it -- I agree there is a narrative.


I'm glad there are people who are still open minded and open to discussion and not just spew "antivax, conspirationist and batshit crazy" when they don't agree. 

In the recent years it seems there is no discussions allowed on many public spaces, and everything is deleted if it doesn't follow the narrative. And most resort to personal attacks vs actually sitting down and analyzing things.

My vax booklet is full, and that includes the HPV vax as a male. But I do have some serious doubts about these COVID ones. Especially for anybody under 60. The last thing I would do is try to change someones mind not to vax himself. In the end it's his/her body, choice.

Then I found this report





						Norwegian Institute of Public Health's recommendation  about AstraZeneca vaccine
					

The Norwegian Institute of Public Health has recommended stopping further use of the AstraZeneca vaccine (Vaxzevria) in the Coronavirus Immunisation Programme in Norway.



					www.fhi.no
				






> "Since there are few people who die from COVID-19 in Norway, the risk of dying after vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine would be higher than the risk of dying from the disease, particularly for younger people," says Bukholm.


Hopefully the Norwegian Institute of Public Health is not too batshit crazy and spreads "misinformation" that many seem to like to throw around


----------



## CBH99

Messerschmitt said:


> I'm glad there are people who are still open minded and open to discussion and not just spew "antivax, conspirationist and batshit crazy" when they don't agree.
> 
> In the recent years it seems there is no discussions allowed on many public spaces, and everything is deleted if it doesn't follow the narrative. And most resort to personal attacks vs actually sitting down and analyzing things.
> 
> My vax booklet is full, and that includes the HPV vax as a male. But I do have some serious doubts about these COVID ones. Especially for anybody under 60. The last thing I would do is try to change someones mind not to vax himself. In the end it's his/her body, choice.
> 
> Then I found this report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norwegian Institute of Public Health's recommendation  about AstraZeneca vaccine
> 
> 
> The Norwegian Institute of Public Health has recommended stopping further use of the AstraZeneca vaccine (Vaxzevria) in the Coronavirus Immunisation Programme in Norway.
> 
> 
> 
> www.fhi.no
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the Norwegian Institute of Public Health is not too batshit crazy and spreads "misinformation" that many seem to like to throw around


Being open minded & open to discussion - especially reasonable discussion - is the only intelligent and logical way forward on ANYTHING.  To immediately label someone as batshit crazy or a conspiracy theorist, simply for questioning the narrative, isn't helpful or even logical.  

(Not taking a jab at anyone, that is my opinion regardless of the subject matter.)

In my own personal opinion, believing everything a politician or mainstream media outlet says without any independent thinking is far more dangerous and 'crazy' than questioning things.  It's downright stupid.  



There are valid points being made on both sides of the Covid debate, and that doesn't mean either side is right or wrong.  Unfortunately, humans tend to naturally take one side or another, and label the other side as wrong - to their own detriment.  

There is plenty of reason to debate and question why infection rates skyrocket in some areas with lockdowns while decline in areas with none.

There is plenty of reason to debate and question vaccination for it - while I personally am vaccinated, and strongly encourage others to do so.  (The risk of serious consequences of a vaccine are miniscule compared to the risks associated with actually getting Covid.)

There is plenty of information coming out of various studies (some are even peer-reviewed now) - and various universities and health authorities about the actual effectiveness of masks, whether Covid or variants are truly airborne or not, why infection rates have dropped in some areas even before a large enough mass of people were vaccinated, etc etc.

Discussing various ideas, opinions, and sources of info is what a discussion forum is for.  Not sure what is gained or helpful by putting words in someone's mouth & then being dismissive of what they didn't even say.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Have a look at the guy in a current issue helmet and combat shirt in one of the pics









						Residents at N.S.-N.B. border stop traffic entering Nova Scotia | SaltWire
					

Frustrations mounting due to tighter restrictions on inter-provincial travel




					www.saltwire.com


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> True......one of the needles we got in my basic back in 78 (think it was yellow fever) , made me unbelievably sick for a night and next day.


Yellow Fever is a live vaccine.  I once got a mild case of typhoid from a live typhoid vaccine.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Messerschmitt said:


> Mother's legs erupt in blisters 'after getting AstraZeneca's jab'


Know what also causes blisters?

Fire.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Discussing various ideas, opinions, and sources of info is what a discussion forum is for.


The problems seem to arise when members can not agree on the facts.


----------



## dapaterson

Halifax Tar said:


> Have a look at the guy in a current issue helmet and combat shirt in one of the pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Residents at N.S.-N.B. border stop traffic entering Nova Scotia | SaltWire
> 
> 
> Frustrations mounting due to tighter restrictions on inter-provincial travel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saltwire.com



And Crocs.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> And Crocs.



Will show scrim


----------



## dimsum

daftandbarmy said:


> Will show scrim


That is an interesting term for "foot hair"


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> Know what also causes blisters?
> 
> Fire.
> 
> View attachment 65004


----------



## Kilted

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-april-26-2021-update-1.6002130
		


I'm not sure how much of a capabilitiy we have to provide here. With the LTC homes we were able to put a lot of people in as GDs to replace staff. In this case it will be limited to medical staff for the most part.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Comforting .... not:

*6-feet rule virtually ineffective at preventing COVID spread indoors: MIT study*

Researchers Martin Bazant and John Bush say, in most cases, exposure to the airborne virus is not be prevented by social distancing alone

According to a new study from researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, staying six feet away from others does little to curb the spread of COVID-19 indoors.

Released Tuesday (April 27), “A Guideline to Limit Indoor Airborne Transmission of COVID-19” suggests virus-laden respiratory droplets emitted from an infected person pose more of an exposure risk than commonplace social distancing rules mitigate.

That’s according to mathematicians Martin Bazant and John Bush.

The duo generated a formula to simulate rooms where respiratory droplets expelled from an infected person wearing a mask were “well-mixed” or evenly spread throughout a room.

Depending on variables – including the size of the space, number of people, type of activity, whether masks are worn and ventilation or filtration measures – the risk of COVID-19 exposure was reduced or heightened.

In calmer environments with few people, the study found droplets carrying the virus fell to the ground faster than in high-activity rooms where particles stayed suspended in the air, longer.

“To minimize the risk of infection, one should avoid spending extended periods in highly populated areas,” concluded Bazant and Bush in the study.

“One is safer in rooms with large volume and high ventilation rates. One is at greater risk in rooms where people are exerting themselves in such a way as to increase their respiration rate and pathogen output, for example, by exercising, singing, or shouting.”

Overall, mask-wearing was found to be the best way to limit both short-range and overall airborne transmission of COVID-19, followed by sufficient ventilation and filtration.

Bazant and Bush also created a website allowing users to use their formula to determine for themselves how best to avoid catching COVID-19 indoors.

On it, the researchers stated, “while public health organizations are beginning to acknowledge airborne transmission, they have yet to provide a safety guideline that incorporates all the relevant variables.”

6-feet rule virtually ineffective at preventing COVID spread indoors: MIT study - Saanich News


----------



## Messerschmitt

The Dark Horse of the Vaccine Race May Be This French Biotech
					

(Bloomberg) -- As the battle with Covid-19 rages around the world, a small French biotech has a possible solution for the long-term war against the virus and the rapidly spreading mutations.The company, Valneva SE, has a vaccine that could be more variant-proof, giving it an edge over other...




					ca.yahoo.com
				






> Valneva’s shot is the only candidate in clinical trials in Europe that uses a tried-and-true vaccine technology involving an inactivated version of the whole virus it’s targeting. Inactivated vaccines — a century-old approach adopted for flu and polio — take a sample of the disease that has been killed and use it to stimulate an immune response without creating infection.



Now we're talking. Me, personally, I'd take this even if it's 50% effective, vs new tech that has never been used in humans and that has no track record for any future complications (currently all the data is for under a year), not to mention rushed to get it out there to deal with this whole mess. I've seen too many complications from all the big 4 vaccines that the media will never show. And I don't mean deaths, but paralysis and other scary complications.


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> Now we're talking. Me, personally, I'd take this even if it's 50% effective, vs new tech that has never been used in humans and that has no track record for any future complications (currently all the data is for under a year), not to mention rushed to get it out there to deal with this whole mess. I've seen too many complications from all the big 4 vaccines that the media will never show. And I don't mean deaths, but paralysis and other scary complications.


Fact or Fiction: Was the COVID-19 vaccine ‘rushed’ and the trials faked?

How did we develop a COVID-19 vaccine so quickly?

Debunking Common Myths About COVID-19 Vaccines

But, do tell about the _many_ "scary" complications you have witnessed.  Also, the J&J vaccine hasn't even been used in Canada yet (AFAIK).

Johnson & Johnson vaccine is coming to Canada

Not that I'm saying this new vaccine won't be a good one too, but you do realize they only started Phase 3 clinical trials this month.


----------



## suffolkowner

PMedMoe said:


> Fact or Fiction: Was the COVID-19 vaccine ‘rushed’ and the trials faked?
> 
> How did we develop a COVID-19 vaccine so quickly?
> 
> Debunking Common Myths About COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> But, do tell about the _many_ "scary" complications you have witnessed.  Also, the J&J vaccine hasn't even been used in Canada yet (AFAIK).
> 
> Johnson & Johnson vaccine is coming to Canada
> 
> Not that I'm saying this new vaccine won't be a good one too, but you do realize they only started Phase 3 clinical trials this month.





Messerschmitt said:


> The Dark Horse of the Vaccine Race May Be This French Biotech
> 
> 
> (Bloomberg) -- As the battle with Covid-19 rages around the world, a small French biotech has a possible solution for the long-term war against the virus and the rapidly spreading mutations.The company, Valneva SE, has a vaccine that could be more variant-proof, giving it an edge over other...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ca.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now we're talking. Me, personally, I'd take this even if it's 50% effective, vs new tech that has never been used in humans and that has no track record for any future complications (currently all the data is for under a year), not to mention rushed to get it out there to deal with this whole mess. I've seen too many complications from all the big 4 vaccines that the media will never show. And I don't mean deaths, but paralysis and other scary complications.



I think we need to distinguish between adverse reactions to potentially damaging vaccine components and the peculiarities of an indiviuals immune response.

I'd probably rate my vaccine preference overall and not just the covid-19 options

1. RNA (Pfizer, Moderna)
2. recombinant virus (AstraZeneca, J&J)
3. attenuated or inactivated virus (Sinovac)
4. protein subunit (Novavax)

I think there is huge potential in the RNA vaccine/delivery going forward.


----------



## Messerschmitt

suffolkowner said:


> I think we need to distinguish between adverse reactions to potentially damaging vaccine components and the peculiarities of an indiviuals immune response.
> 
> I'd probably rate my vaccine preference overall and not just the covid-19 options
> 
> 1. RNA (Pfizer, Moderna)
> 2. recombinant virus (AstraZeneca, J&J)
> 3. attenuated or inactivated virus (Sinovac)
> 4. protein subunit (Novavax)
> 
> *I think there is huge potential in the RNA vaccine/delivery going forward.*


I agree. But AFAIK RNA was never used in humans, and because of COVID and how fast something was needed, it was never tested in mice either. Over time I do agree it can potentially be much better, but as of right now, personally I would take the #3 due to it's track record in all other vaccines.

AFAIK, only the Chinese made one for COVID, so I'm really happy that someone in the western countries is now proceeding into this.


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> I agree. But AFAIK RNA was never used in humans, and because of COVID and how fast something was needed, *it was never tested in mice either*.


I already posted about the speed with which the vaccines came out.

Pfizer and Moderna did not skip animal trials

"Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on *mice* and macaques."

Immune Responses Induced by mRNA Vaccination in Mice, Monkeys and Humans

"This vaccine was also found to be highly immunogenic in *mice* and hamsters and induced strong neutralizing titers and full protection"



Messerschmitt said:


> AFAIK, only the Chinese made one for COVID, so I'm really happy that someone in the western countries is now proceeding into this.


AstraZeneca COVID‐19 Vaccine (manufactured by AstraZeneca) and COVISHIELD (manufactured by Serum Institute of India) are recombinant vaccines developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University.  AstraZeneca is a British-Swedish multinational pharmaceutical and biotechnology company with its headquarters at the Cambridge Biomedical Campus in Cambridge, England.

The scientists who developed the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine are a Turkish-German power couple, scientists Ugur Sahin and Ozlem Tureci. And they did so in Germany.

The Moderna COVID‑19 vaccine was developed by Moderna (a US company), the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA) a US Health and Human Services office.



You still haven't mentioned the complications you've witnessed. but I'm starting to wonder where you're getting your information from.

I got the A-Z shot, but I would have preferred Pfizer or Moderna due to their higher efficacy rate.  However, now is not the time for people to be picking and choosing. The faster we get people vaccinated, the faster we achieve herd immunity and hopefully significantly slow down the spread of COVID.


----------



## QV

So I'm curious how Texas, Florida, and South Dakota are doing.  Shouldn't they be a complete disaster by now?


----------



## Quirky

QV said:


> So I'm curious how Texas, Florida, and South Dakota are doing.  Shouldn't they be a complete disaster by now?



Texas is a blood bath.


----------



## PMedMoe

As of April 30th:

South Dakota 11% positive, new daily cases: 134

Florida 8.8% positive, new daily cases: 5,666

Texas 4.9% positive, new daily cases: 3,619

Source: States ranked by COVID-19 test positivity rates: April 30


----------



## mariomike

For those keeping score.

Death rates from coronavirus (COVID-19) in the United States as of April 30, 2021, by state (per 100,000 people)​







						U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
					

As of December 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 439 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.




					www.statista.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

This story had my wife in tears today:

B.C. family mourns 46-year-old dad who died suddenly of COVID-19 at home​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-covid-19-46-year-old-death-1.6008440


----------



## brihard

Texas has had about 2.5x Canada’s per capita deaths. Over 50,000 total vs our 24,200, and with a population about three quarters ours. They’ve had three times our per capita infection rate based on confirmed cases. A third of their population has been vaccinated, and probably a third has had the virus- those two thirds will of course overlap.

Their daily case and death counts remain relatively high, so not exactly a great situation down there still.

Texas, like many states, has more ICU beds per capital than we do. The crisis point here has always been about protecting the ICUs, avoiding triage, and minimizing medical rationing. America just accomplishes that differently, based on whether you’re insured or not.


----------



## RangerRay

Even though our governments crapped the bed on vaccines, our death rates in Manitoba is far better than the Dakotas. According to D&B’s source, there is a death rate of 200 and 220 per 100,000 in North an South Dakota respectively.   Manitoba, with a larger population and a larger urban centre than either state has a death rate of 75 per 100,000 (based on my math).

Their situations may be improving now because they are swimming in vaccine now compared to us.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> This story had my wife in tears today:
> 
> B.C. family mourns 46-year-old dad who died suddenly of COVID-19 at home​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-covid-19-46-year-old-death-1.6008440



One death is a tragedy, millions of deaths is a statistic.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> One death is a tragedy, millions of deaths is a statistic.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> One death is a tragedy, millions of deaths is a statistic.


Thanks for that bit of wisdom, Joe.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> One death is a tragedy, millions of deaths is a statistic.


I've posted a lot in thread thread so I won't moderate , but I'll be asking you to explain yourself here for the others.   The ice is thin methinks....


----------



## Loachman

Joseph Stalin - see Number 6.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Wonderful....

COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered​​
"I can't tell you how much this pains me. The reality is, I can do more good for the world outside of Canada than I can in."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/providence-therapeutics-pulling-out-canada-1.6009068?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_262852


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Wonderful....
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered​​
> "I can't tell you how much this pains me. The reality is, I can do more good for the world outside of Canada than I can in."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/providence-therapeutics-pulling-out-canada-1.6009068?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_262852


Sounds about right...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

With all the money the Ontario teachers unions are spending on whining about not being vaccinated could probably buy tons of vaccines...


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> With all the money the Ontario teachers unions are spending on whining about not being vaccinated could probably buy tons of vaccines...


Could be they were a shady operation and this is only their side of the story.

Or, the feds saw a Calgary postal code and said pass...


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> Wonderful....
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered​​
> "I can't tell you how much this pains me. The reality is, I can do more good for the world outside of Canada than I can in."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/providence-therapeutics-pulling-out-canada-1.6009068?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_262852


They’re asking more than Canada can give...


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:


> Wonderful....
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered​​
> "I can't tell you how much this pains me. The reality is, I can do more good for the world outside of Canada than I can in."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/providence-therapeutics-pulling-out-canada-1.6009068?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_262852



Well they do have a pretty website Providence Therapeutics | Ignite The Cure Within  but so far their covid vaccine is only in phase 1 trials (60 subjects).  They may be making progress in mRNA vaccine development, but have yet to go to production let alone get to trials in any of the other lines that they are following.  So this seems to be more a follow-on to their CEO's open letter of 5 February 2021 to the PM saying they could be as good as those who are already producing vaccines if the government gave them $150 million, but there doesn't seem to be anymore clinical data to support their request than 3 months ago.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:


> Well they do have a pretty website Providence Therapeutics | Ignite The Cure Within  but so far their covid vaccine is only in phase 1 trials (60 subjects).  They may be making progress in mRNA vaccine development, but have yet to go to production let alone get to trials in any of the other lines that they are following.  So this seems to be more a follow-on to their CEO's open letter of 5 February 2021 to the PM saying they could be as good as those who are already producing vaccines if the government gave them $150 million, but there doesn't seem to be anymore clinical data to support their request than 3 months ago.



We can't make our own Army boots either:

Vaccine envy: Why can't Canada make COVID-19 doses at home?​​Once a world leader in vaccine production, Canada is entirely dependent on foreign sources for COVID-19 shots

With the third wave of the COVID-19 pandemic raging on, the demand for vaccine doses continues to outstrip Canada's relatively thin supply.

Canada's domestic vaccine manufacturing capability has been hollowed out, leaving the country entirely dependent on foreign sources for the doses that promise an eventual return to normal life.

When the pandemic began, Canada — unlike many other countries — lacked a facility that could be retooled easily to produce the viral vector COVID-19 vaccines from AstraZeneca or Johnson & Johnson, or the mRNA products offered by Pfizer and Moderna.

The nation's vaccination campaign has improved in recent weeks after a slow start marred by production delays and missed deliveries. Canada is now performing better than most other countries in the G20 but it's still being outpaced by at least two other countries: the United Kingdom and the United States.

An estimated 231 million vaccine doses have been administered so far in the U.S. and 37 per cent of the American adult population has been fully vaccinated with two doses. Among people over the age of 18, 54 per cent of Americans have had at least one dose.

In the U.K., more than 47 million doses have been deployed and 64 per cent of all Britons have had at least one dose.

Canada has fully vaccinated just three per cent of its population — a low figure explained in part by the long interval between shots — while 30 per cent have had at least one shot.

The two countries that easily outpaced Canada's vaccination effort have one thing in common: they have homegrown pharmaceutical companies that make their own products at domestic facilities — a bulwark against the vaccine nationalism that has disrupted global supply chains.

Canadians have noticed. CBC News has received hundreds of emails and comments from readers about vaccine production in recent weeks.

"Why doesn't Canada have its own vaccine? Are we always to rely on the USA for everything?" Tim Williams asked in one comment on our website. "Why has Canada fallen short behind our allies and the rest of the world with research and innovation?"

"Why on earth do we not make our own vaccine for Canadians? Even the Russians and Chinese did it. This incompetency and low level IQ is killing me more than the virus," Meredith Rodney Mckay said in another comment.


----------



## CBH99

Blackadder1916 said:


> Well they do have a pretty website Providence Therapeutics | Ignite The Cure Within  but so far their covid vaccine is only in phase 1 trials (60 subjects).  They may be making progress in mRNA vaccine development, but have yet to go to production let alone get to trials in any of the other lines that they are following.  So this seems to be more a follow-on to their CEO's open letter of 5 February 2021 to the PM saying they could be as good as those who are already producing vaccines if the government gave them $150 million, but there doesn't seem to be anymore clinical data to support their request than 3 months ago.


What you wrote there gave me more valuable insight into the lack of federal support than any media article I've read on this matter thus far, and REALLY changes my perspective.  I'm glad you wrote that you did, it changes the angle I was doing my research from.

I was sitting here, shaking my head at how I'm constantly disappointed with the lack of true leadership & innovation shown by our governments at handling this issue.  I was thinking "Oh great, another company pulling the plug and leaving because of dips**t's inability to make decisions...more jobs on the way out."  

After doing some research from a different angle and doing some digging, seems like they are unbelievably late to the party.  Like, unbelievably late would be an understatement.  Not a chance of their vaccine being used in the near term to get us out of this mess, even if the feds gave them the money they were asking for.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> What you wrote there gave me more valuable insight into the lack of federal support than any media article I've read on this matter thus far, and REALLY changes my perspective.  I'm glad you wrote that you did, it changes the angle I was doing my research from.
> 
> I was sitting here, shaking my head at how I'm constantly disappointed with the lack of true leadership & innovation shown by our governments at handling this issue.  I was thinking "Oh great, another company pulling the plug and leaving because of dips**t's inability to make decisions...more jobs on the way out."
> 
> *After doing some research from a different angle and doing some digging, seems like they are unbelievably late to the party.  Like, unbelievably late would be an understatement.  Not a chance of their vaccine being used in the near term to get us out of this mess, even if the feds gave them the money they were asking for.*



So, not unlike the way we fund our national ship building procurement then, right?


----------



## ModlrMike

The treat of the novel virus isn't going away any time soon. Given that we no longer have a home grown vaccine maker, the government should have helped them out. I admit that their progress is behind the curve regarding a Covid vaccine, but there's an own goal in the making here. We could have built a capacity that we're sorely missing. Now we stand to lose this opportunity. $150M is cheap compared to what we're spending on other things that will have no lasting impact.


----------



## CBH99

ModlrMike said:


> The treat of the novel virus isn't going away any time soon. Given that we no longer have a home grown vaccine maker, the government should have helped them out. I admit that their progress is behind the curve regarding a Covid vaccine, but there's an own goal in the making here. We could have built a capacity that we're sorely missing. Now we stand to lose this opportunity. $150M is cheap compared to what we're spending on other things that will have no lasting impact.


I do totally agree with you, 100%.

However, when the feds pumped about $170M ( think it was roughly that amount?) into the NRC new facility in Quebec for vaccine production, I think they probably 'checked that box'.

It is unfortunate as it would be a welcome capability for the country, and one much needed.  And, one based out west, which could really use whatever jobs they can get (I know that applies to everybody across the country these days.)  Probably an opportunity missed, in more ways than one.  

Hopefully the facility in Quebec provides us with an adequate capability once it comes online.


----------



## ModlrMike

I realize that I missed another benefit of supporting this company. The mRNA technology is at the forefront of cancer research. There is some evidence that targeted cancer immunotherapy could be produced from this approach.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Lessons learned:
1. Make something tangible, like ships or trains or small aircraft.
2. Set up in QC.


----------



## Blackadder1916

ModlrMike said:


> The treat of the novel virus isn't going away any time soon. Given that we no longer have a home grown vaccine maker, the government should have helped them out. I admit that their progress is behind the curve regarding a Covid vaccine, but there's an own goal in the making here. We could have built a capacity that we're sorely missing. Now we stand to lose this opportunity. $150M is cheap compared to what we're spending on other things that will have no lasting impact.



Yes, there was no one else in Canada doing it.









						Made-in-Alberta COVID-19 vaccine candidate headed for clinical trials
					

A made-in-Alberta COVID-19 vaccine is taking a major step forward on the path to Health Canada approval with the start of a Phase 1 clinical trial.




					www.ualberta.ca
				








						Enabling Tomorrow's Nanomedicines | Entos Pharmaceuticals
					

Entos Pharmaceuticals develops next generation nucleic acid-based therapies using our proprietary Fusogenix drug delivery system.




					www.entospharma.com
				









						Newsroom - Precision NanoSystems
					

Read our latest press releases, learn about new products, and stay up-to-date on how PNI is revolutionizing nanomedicine drug development globally.




					www.precisionnanosystems.com
				












						Media | Medicago
					

Welcome to Medicago’s Media Room, where you can find our latest news, key facts, figures and background information.




					www.medicago.com
				




And then, there's also the big multinationals with existing vaccine plants in Canada, Sanofi Pasteur and GSK.


----------



## suffolkowner

My son booked his appointment last night for today at the Barrie Costco, pretty easy and fast, so maybe it can be done by others in other places



			https://b.telehippo.com/o/w252/s/1096


----------



## Remius

I’m booked tomorrow.  At a provincial mass vaccination clinic.  After trying to go through a pharmacy and getting no response I became eligible due to being in a hot zone.  Went online and both appointments are booked.  Wasn’t very difficult.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Brad Sallows said:


> Lessons learned:
> 1. Make something tangible, like ships or trains or small aircraft.
> 2. Set up in QC.


I guess that whole “the Federal Government will be there to help Alberta diversify its economy away from oil and gas“ thing was just bullshit...


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> I’m booked tomorrow.  At a provincial mass vaccination clinic.  After trying to go through a pharmacy and getting no response I became eligible due to being in a hot zone.  Went online and both appointments are booked.  Wasn’t very difficult.



The pharmacies are struggling since AZ is drying up. The provincial / PHU bookings are using Pfizer and Astra Zeneca.


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> I guess that whole “the Federal Government will be there to help Alberta in any way, large or small, diversify its economy away from oil and gas“ thing was just bullshit...



There, FTFY


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> The pharmacies are struggling since AZ is drying up. The provincial / PHU bookings are using Pfizer and Astra Zeneca.


Yeah, booked with a pharmacy the moment it became available but 3 weeks and still nothing.  From what I can tell, lots of people made multiple bookings, and never cancelled their multiple appts leading to no shows or last minute cancellations.  The pharmacy booking system isn’t really linked between pharmacies so likely caused issues.


----------



## Remius

Got my first shot this morning.  Was pretty smooth.

On a related note on how effective one shot might be.









						Relatively few COVID-19 cases reported after receiving first vaccine dose, data show
					

One shot provides strong protection but it’s not as robust as two doses, Public Health Agency of Canada reiterates




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




I know up thread there was some debate about tracking totals based on one dose or two.  But it seems that the one dose strategy seems to be working.

listening to the radio, pundits were saying that the Ontario Gvt really needs to do more to explain what people with one dose vs two can do.  Can a one dose person visit their mother who has two doses in an LTC facility? Can a group of of one dose people meet without masks etc etc.  It would go a long way to encourage people to get it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Until mid-May it means nothing.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until mid-May it means nothing.


Yes.  Not sure what you are getting at?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You can't do anything different, vaccinated or not, until the lockdown/stay at home is over.   And who in their right mind would make a decision based on over  2 weeks in the future right now?


----------



## mariomike

Some may, or may not, find this of interest.

3 May 2021









						The Biggest Remaining Challenge in Stopping the Coronavirus
					

These miscreants and freeloaders are holding up the rest of us.




					slate.com


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You can't do anything different, vaccinated or not, until the lockdown/stay at home is over.   And who in their right mind would make a decision based on over  2 weeks in the future right now?


True.  But the messaging and comms out of the Ontario gvt is terrible. That was my point.   Right now for example my wife is fully vaccinated and so is her father who is in LTC.   She has to go through hoops to see him.  But unvaccinated staff go in every day.   Unrelated, but we can’t even take him outside for air, but residents who smoke can.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Remius
> 
> 
> Some may, or may not, find this of interest.
> 
> 3 May 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Biggest Remaining Challenge in Stopping the Coronavirus
> 
> 
> These miscreants and freeloaders are holding up the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slate.com



Oh, you mean the 'scam-demic' they're talking about at the rodeo in Alberta? 

Alberta Health Services explores legal options after hundreds attend rodeo​








						Alberta Health Services explores legal options after hundreds attend rodeo
					

Alberta Health Services says it is exploring its legal options after hundreds attended a rodeo in central Alberta — held to protest COVID-19 restrictions. But some have questioned how the event was allowed to proceed in the first place. Over the weekend as Alberta reported thousands of new...




					ca.style.yahoo.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:


> True.  But the messaging and comms out of the Ontario gvt is terrible. That was my point.   Right now for example my wife is fully vaccinated and so is her father who is in LTC.   She has to go through hoops to see him.  But unvaccinated staff go in every day.   Unrelated, but we can’t even take him outside for air, but residents who smoke can.




My Mom is in one......anyone go go outside, they encourage it, but not for a visit.  Hoops??  What hoops?  I can't visit at all in person, window visit or online [the staff do everything for them but I'm about computer savvy as her, so no.].....and I'm cool with it.   The staff/management have been so good and proactive they've only had one resident case, early on in the pandemic with a lady who had a bloodwork appointment in Toronto.

And we are in a stay at home order......why do you think your wife is not subject to it?


----------



## Good2Golf

Remius said:


> True.  But the messaging and comms out of the Ontario gvt is terrible. That was my point.   Right now for example my wife is fully vaccinated and so is her father who is in LTC.   She has to go through hoops to see him.  But unvaccinated staff go in every day.   Unrelated, but we can’t even take him outside for air, but residents who smoke can.


Yeah...bad Ontario...

Oh wait...Why guidelines for what Canadians can and can't do after getting COVID-19 vaccines are still unclear

If Dr. Tam can’t figure it out (yet) and provide recommendations to the provinces, is it fair to expect the provinces to make binding decisions in a vacuum, only to likely bear the brunt of criticism once the Feds actually come up with guidance?

The US CDC came up with clear direction back on 8 March...yet Canadians are told “wait and see” by those in positions to inform.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> My Mom is in one......anyone go go outside, they encourage it, but not for a visit.  Hoops??  What hoops?  I can't visit at all in person, window visit or online [the staff do everything for them but I'm about computer savvy as her, so no.].....and I'm cool with it.   The staff/management have been so good and proactive they've only had one resident case, early on in the pandemic with a lady who had a bloodwork appointment in Toronto.
> 
> And we are in a stay at home order......why do you think your wife is not subject to it?


She’s a designated caregiver for him. There are times when the nurses call her in to calm him down.  He’s in an LTC facility not a retirement residence.   That’s why.


----------



## Remius

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah...bad Ontario...
> 
> Oh wait...Why guidelines for what Canadians can and can't do after getting COVID-19 vaccines are still unclear
> 
> If Dr. Tam can’t figure it out (yet) and provide recommendations to the provinces, is it fair to expect the provinces to make binding decisions in a vacuum, only to likely bear the brunt of criticism once the Feds actually come up with guidance?
> 
> The US CDC came up with clear direction back on 8 March...yet Canadians are told “wait and see” by those in positions to inform.


Fair enough.  I was only relaying what I heard on the radio.   But yes, Ontario has a bad comms record.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Some may, or may not, find this of interest.
> 
> 3 May 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Biggest Remaining Challenge in Stopping the Coronavirus
> 
> 
> These miscreants and freeloaders are holding up the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slate.com


No bias there.🙄








						Slate
					

LEFT BIAS These media sources are moderate to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation.  They may




					mediabiasfactcheck.com


----------



## mariomike

Like I said, "some may not find this of interest". 🙄

From your link,


*Overall, we rate Slate, moderately Left Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that favor the left and High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a reasonable fact check record.*


----------



## Good2Golf

Remius said:


> Fair enough.  I was only relaying what I heard on the radio.   But yes, Ontario has a bad comms record.


I think fair to say, that every level of government has a bad comms record.  At this point, at least a number of provinces, Ontario included, have openly acknowledged when they’ve done it wrong (Ford’s we didn’t think out the closing parks thing, etc.)   To date, unless I’ve missed it, the Feds are pretty much unrepentant...still all prancing unicorns and magic dust.


----------



## Remius

Good2Golf said:


> I think fair to say, that every level of government has a bad comms record.  At this point, at least a number of provinces, Ontario included, have openly acknowledged when they’ve done it wrong (Ford’s we didn’t think out the closing parks thing, etc.)   To date, unless I’ve missed it, the Feds are pretty much unrepentant...still all prancing unicorns and magic dust.


I can agree on that.  Our city has designtated hot spots but the province only considers some of them hot spots and vice versa.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:


> She’s a designated caregiver for him. There are times when the nurses call her in to calm him down.  He’s in an LTC facility not a retirement residence.   That’s why.


Thanks.......I hope she has better luck in the future.


----------



## Blackadder1916

All this talk about having "a dose" . . . I remember when saying you had a dose was a bad thing.


----------



## RangerRay

Comms had been poor all around. Top that off with “Even if your vaccinated, there’s no changes”. No incentive, other than your own health. They should be saying “If we get _x_ people fully vaccinated, we can go back to some semblance of normal”.  I mean, that’s the point of vaccinating, right?

I understand it’s not known how well the vaccine works with future mutations, but to tell people that there will be no changes despite how many are fully vaccinated will not encourage more people to get it.

Edited for spelling.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

We have enough lies from politicians as it is......why would I want more?  If you don't know then say so.....


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Thanks.......I hope she has better luck in the future.


Thanks for the well wishes. It is what it is.  I should have added more context to my post.

cheers.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> We have enough lies from politicians as it is......why would I want more?  If you don't know then say so.....


true.  I’d rather they say they don’t know.  And they have I think.  At least that’s an expectation of some sort.  Right now even with vaccinations coming in our waste water testing is on a downward trajectory but we are still higher than the 1st and 2nd wave.

btw.  No super powers but I feel like someone punched my arm lol.


----------



## lenaitch

RangerRay said:


> Comms had been poor all around. Top that off with “Even if your vaccinated, there’s no changes”. No incentive, other than your own health. They should be saying “If we get _x_ people fully vaccinated, we can go back to some semblance of normal”.  I mean, that’s the point of vaccinating, right?
> 
> I understand it’s not known how well the vaccine works with future mutations, but to tell people that there will be no changes despite how many are fully vaccinated will not encourage more people to get it.
> 
> Edited for spelling.



Perhaps when we reach something approaching herd immunity.  Herd immunity varied with diseases but is typically in the range of 80-90% vaccinated.  I don't think they really know what the required vaccination rate is, yet.  Regardless, we are at roughly 30% with one-shot vaccination and only 3% 'fully', so clearly a ways to go yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

lenaitch said:


> Perhaps when we reach something approaching herd immunity.  Herd immunity varied with diseases but is typically in the range of 80-90% vaccinated.  I don't think they really know what the required vaccination rate is, yet.  Regardless, we are at roughly 30% with one-shot vaccination and only 3% 'fully', so clearly a ways to go yet.



Plan for two years (from last May, apparently) if all goes well:

Coronavirus outbreak likely to go on for two years, scientists predict​The coronavirus pandemic is likely to last between 18 and 24 months, scientists from the University of Minnesota have predicted.

In a report published Thursday, researchers from the university’s Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) stressed that Covid-19 was more contagious than the flu and was likely to continue circulating after a first wave this spring.

The new coronavirus has a longer incubation period than the flu, meaning it takes longer for symptoms to appear after a person has been infected, they said, noting that the coronavirus may be at its most contagious before symptoms appear. It was also pointed out that Covid-19 has displayed a higher rate of asymptomatic transmission, as well as a higher R0 rating than influenza.









						Coronavirus outbreak likely to go on for two years, scientists predict
					

In a new report, researchers from the University of Minnesota stressed that Covid-19 was more contagious than the flu and was likely to continue circulating after a first wave this spring.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## PuckChaser

lenaitch said:


> Perhaps when we reach something approaching herd immunity.  Herd immunity varied with diseases but is typically in the range of 80-90% vaccinated.  I don't think they really know what the required vaccination rate is, yet.  Regardless, we are at roughly 30% with one-shot vaccination and only 3% 'fully', so clearly a ways to go yet.


Israel is a good indicator, they hit 50% fully vaccinated and cases plummeted from 5k per day to sub 300.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Alberta is now reporting the highest number of COVID-19 cases per capita in all of Canada and the United States:









						'It'll crash tremendously': Alberta now leads Canada and U.S. in per capita COVID-19 cases
					

Alberta is now reporting the highest number of COVID-19 cases per capita in all of Canada and the United States. According to CTVNews.ca's tracker, there have been an average of 440.5 daily cases per million people in the last seven days, more than any other province or territory in Canada as...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

Wow...

More than 5,000 international air travellers positive for COVID-19 since February​More than 5,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 after flying back to Canada since mandatory quarantine hotels began in late February.

That includes 3,748 people who tested positive the day they returned despite having to show a negative COVID-19 test taken no more than three days before they boarded their plane.

Forty per cent of those people were infected with one of the three variants of concern Canada is tracking.

Another 1,411 people tested positive on the test required 10 days after they returned.

The data is now current as of last Thursday, and the number of confirmed variants among travellers is three times as high as the data reported from seven days earlier as more test results were submitted to the Public Health Agency of Canada.









						More than 5,000 international air travellers positive for COVID-19 since February
					

OTTAWA — More than 5,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 after flying back to Canada since mandatory quarantine hotels began in late February.Thus far, variants of interest or concern have been . . .




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> Israel is a good indicator, they hit 50% fully vaccinated and cases plummeted from 5k per day to sub 300.


Yeah, I think we won’t achieve herd immunity for a while but we’ll certainly see a reduction in numbers hopefully.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Yeah, I think we won’t achieve herd immunity for a while but we’ll certainly see a reduction in numbers hopefully.


We already might have. 

A certain province has more or less avoided a third wave.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OceanBonfire said:


> Alberta is now reporting the highest number of COVID-19 cases per capita in all of Canada and the United States:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'It'll crash tremendously': Alberta now leads Canada and U.S. in per capita COVID-19 cases
> 
> 
> Alberta is now reporting the highest number of COVID-19 cases per capita in all of Canada and the United States. According to CTVNews.ca's tracker, there have been an average of 440.5 daily cases per million people in the last seven days, more than any other province or territory in Canada as...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Wow...
> 
> More than 5,000 international air travellers positive for COVID-19 since February​More than 5,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 after flying back to Canada since mandatory quarantine hotels began in late February.
> 
> That includes 3,748 people who tested positive the day they returned despite having to show a negative COVID-19 test taken no more than three days before they boarded their plane.
> 
> Forty per cent of those people were infected with one of the three variants of concern Canada is tracking.
> 
> Another 1,411 people tested positive on the test required 10 days after they returned.
> 
> The data is now current as of last Thursday, and the number of confirmed variants among travellers is three times as high as the data reported from seven days earlier as more test results were submitted to the Public Health Agency of Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than 5,000 international air travellers positive for COVID-19 since February
> 
> 
> OTTAWA — More than 5,000 people tested positive for COVID-19 after flying back to Canada since mandatory quarantine hotels began in late February.Thus far, variants of interest or concern have been . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Great job at 'closing the borders' there federal government.  Well done.  

And requiring travellers to show proof of a negative Covid test before boarding a Canada bound plane?  Also being executed flawlessly.  

Just fantastic.  Top reviews.       (So ticked off...)


----------



## blacktriangle

CBH99 said:


> Great job at 'closing the borders' there federal government.  Well done.
> 
> And requiring travellers to show proof of a negative Covid test before boarding a Canada bound plane?  Also being executed flawlessly.
> 
> Just fantastic.  Top reviews.       (So ticked off...)


For a post-national state, we still seem to pay a lot of federal tax...

Gotta keep the PM decked in the latest lululemon, I guess.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Oxford University: Canada ranks among highest in the stringency of government measures, near China and Cuba
					

News for all




					westphaliantimes.com


----------



## Messerschmitt

CBH99 said:


> Great job at 'closing the borders' there federal government.  Well done.
> 
> And requiring travellers to show proof of a negative Covid test before boarding a Canada bound plane?  Also being executed flawlessly.
> 
> Just fantastic.  Top reviews.       (So ticked off...)


The 5000 cases are just smoke and mirrors. If you are ticked off that means the propaganda machine is working well oiled.

I am saying this because if you are ticked off at 5000 cases since february, then you should be outraged and protesting in ottawa demanding answers why over 6 millions essential travelers have entered Canada in 2020 alone without a single test (not even a rapid one) and not a single day of quarantine. And until recently, US was the biggest petri dish in the entire world.

This is the equivalent of ON closing down parks and golf courses when all the infections are happening at work or essential stores being opened.

Just saying, you are barking at the wrong tree....


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> I am saying this because if you are ticked off at 5000 cases since february, then you should be outraged and protesting in ottawa demanding answers why over 6 millions essential travelers have entered Canada in 2020 alone *without a single test (not even a rapid one) and not a single day of quarantine.* And until recently, US was the biggest petri dish in the entire world.


Do you have a reference for the underlined part?  Or is it like your knowledge of "many complications" from vaccines?

News article from Dec 2020:

There have been more than 7 million entries into Canada since COVID-19 began.

Vinette said truck drivers account for the largest group of people entering Canada during the pandemic, making up about half of the total entries so far.

The second-biggest group is individuals who live in border towns and have jobs on the opposite side of the border, he said.

Both groups are exempt from Canada's 14-day quarantine requirement — which was designed to help stop the spread of COVID-19.

When looking at nationalities, Vinette said, Canadian citizens and permanent residents make up the largest group of people entering the country during the border shutdown.

Disclaimer: A previous version of this story stated that more than seven million people have entered Canada since lockdowns began. In fact, that number includes multiple entries by the same people, so the number of different people who have entered is likely lower.


----------



## Messerschmitt

PMedMoe said:


> Do you have a reference for the underlined part?  Or is it like your knowledge of "many complications" from vaccines?
> 
> News article from Dec 2020:
> 
> There have been more than 7 million entries into Canada since COVID-19 began.
> 
> Vinette said truck drivers account for the largest group of people entering Canada during the pandemic, making up about half of the total entries so far.
> 
> The second-biggest group is individuals who live in border towns and have jobs on the opposite side of the border, he said.
> 
> Both groups are exempt from Canada's 14-day quarantine requirement — which was designed to help stop the spread of COVID-19.
> 
> When looking at nationalities, Vinette said, Canadian citizens and permanent residents make up the largest group of people entering the country during the border shutdown.
> 
> Disclaimer: A previous version of this story stated that more than seven million people have entered Canada since lockdowns began. In fact, that number includes multiple entries by the same people, so the number of different people who have entered is likely lower.


Would a Canadian citizen/PR not have the same chance of being infected? And AFAIK, only citizens/PR were allowed to enter Canada anyway, essential or not essential since the start of the pandemic minus a few exemptions such as immediate family member or extended later on last year.

And the same person entering twice does not mean the chances are lower to enter infected vs 2 people entering once (unless that person already got COVID and it had immunity).

My reference is that there has been no testing or quarantine of essential travelers. Do you have something else stating otherwise? That they have been tested or quarantined?


Regarding trust in the government, it always helps when the governments hides/withholds information









						COVID-19: Leaked reports show B.C. health authorities withholding data from the public
					

B.C. doesn’t make anywhere near the same level of detail available to the public as other provinces




					vancouversun.com
				




Overall it's no big deal, but it definitely helps with people who are already skeptics in everything the government says we should do /s


----------



## CBH99

My understanding, which just comes from various news articles I have read, is that all passengers coming to Canada by plane must show a valid Covid test issued within 3 days of them boarding the aircraft.  (Covid test has to show negative, obviously.)

But if that were being enforced, we shouldn't be experiencing flights landing daily with Covid positive passengers walking off... so I feel like something in the plan isn't functioning as it should, or there is a contributing factor to this that I am not aware of.  

Because if 99 Covid negative passengers get onto a plane, then I would just assume that there would be 99 Covid negative passengers getting off of that same plane...


I'll do some digging once I'm home for articles, and edit my post accordingly.  As for enforcement of quarantine if someone lands here and are positive?  I have no idea how strictly that is being enforced.  Anybody?


----------



## Loachman

More people might be more accepting of restrictions if information was available to justify them. A lot of restrictions seem arbitrary, like Ontario closing golf courses and sports practices being alright but not actual games. Does the virus know the difference between just running around and chasing a ball and keeping score while doing so?

Present me with the information, Doug. Show your homework.


----------



## CBH99

Agreed.  I believe it is a combination of restrictions that seem arbitrary, some that have absolutely zero scientific backing, and the apathy that most citizenry are either feeling or accepting as no government has presented a plan to say "We need to accomplish Objective A, and the reward will be reopening."

Now that vaccines are arriving in larger and larger numbers, and more often - and the vaccination program has some momentum behind it now - I hope provincial governments will reveal strategies that take into consideration one of the most basic principals of motivating people to do things.  



Cancelling practices, but not games?  Not allowed to shake hands before or after the game, but can still play certain team sports?  Can't go to the gym alone, or workout by yourself...but you ARE allowed if you go WITH someone who is certified as a trainer?  

Implement restrictions that actually make sense.  Now that vaccines are available, unveal a proactive plan to reopening rather than a reactive plan to "oh no, our numbers are up!"   Test using consistent methods across the board, so the numbers aren't so unreliable, etc etc - and people may be more patient.


0.02


----------



## Mick

CBH99 said:


> My understanding, which just comes from various news articles I have read, is that all passengers coming to Canada by plane must show a valid Covid test issued within 3 days of them boarding the aircraft.  (Covid test has to show negative, obviously.)
> 
> But if that were being enforced, we shouldn't be experiencing flights landing daily with Covid positive passengers walking off... so I feel like something in the plan isn't functioning as it should, or there is a contributing factor to this that I am not aware of.
> 
> Because if 99 Covid negative passengers get onto a plane, then I would just assume that there would be 99 Covid negative passengers getting off of that same plane...
> 
> 
> I'll do some digging once I'm home for articles, and edit my post accordingly.  As for enforcement of quarantine if someone lands here and are positive?  I have no idea how strictly that is being enforced.  Anybody?


The COVID tests prior to boarding must be completed within 72 hrs of boarding - it's possible to become infected  between being tested, and boarding a flight.


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> My reference is that there has been no testing or quarantine of essential travelers. Do you have something else stating otherwise? That they have been tested or quarantined?


My bad, I must have skimmed and didn't see that you said essential travelers (who are exempt from quarantine).

The 7 million who entered Canada last year weren't all essential workers though.  Those who weren't, should have been tested and/or ordered to quarantine.

I know when I entered Canada last March, I was instructed at the border to quarantine for 14 days, which I did.

As far as mentioning that some of those numbers were people who entered more than once, was to show how the number could look like a lot more than it actually was.  I would imagine many truck drivers on certain routes probably exited and entered Canada several times last year.


----------



## GK .Dundas

I regret to say they all seem to be having trouble getting any coherent message out. Federal or provincial governments all seem to have developed an inability to speak in either official language.
I have have complained/whined for years that Canadian politicians had lost the ability to actually do almost anything other than talk and perform only symbolic gestures.
Now they seem to be unable to do that as well.


----------



## Messerschmitt

PMedMoe said:


> My bad, I must have skimmed and didn't see that you said essential travelers (who are exempt from quarantine).
> 
> The 7 million who entered Canada last year weren't all essential workers though.  Those who weren't, should have been tested and/or ordered to quarantine.
> 
> I know when I entered Canada last March, I was instructed at the border to quarantine for 14 days, which I did.
> 
> As far as mentioning that some of those numbers were people who entered more than once, was to show how the number could look like a lot more than it actually was.  I would imagine many truck drivers on certain routes probably exited and entered Canada several times last year.


I don't have the reference right now but something like over 66% of those were essential travelers (airline and landborder). You can have the thoughest restrictons you want (28 days in quarantine, 1-1 escort to hotel, etc, more crazier than Australia, etc), it's all worthless if 4 million are never tested or quarantined. But it will look like politicians do something about it and the sheep will buy it, even though is as ineffective as closing down golf courses.


----------



## PMedMoe




----------



## Loachman

And more to worry about, for those who worry:









						Covid strain that contains 18 mutations is more deadly and infectious, researchers warn
					

Researchers have confirmed that a new variant of the Coronavirus turns out to be a combination of 18 different mutations, including the strains commonly




					www.cityam.com


----------



## PMedMoe

Yeah, the "leaked" document was a book published in 2015 and openly sold on Amazon.   

Sky News Australia is tapping into the global conspiracy set 

Overall, we rate Sky News Australia Right-Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that mostly favor the right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to *failed fact checks, unproven claims, as well as the promotion of conspiracy theories and misinformation*. Media Bias/Fact Check - Search and Learn the Bias of News Media


----------



## Blackadder1916

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, the "leaked" document was a book published in 2015 and openly sold on Amazon.



Nice to know.  While looking at the quoted texts from that book, my immediate thought was the similarity with what I remember from a number of American and British military pubs (and possibly Canadian ones, though we used a lot of others countries' pams as reference) that were used on a number of NBC courses that I did during the Cold War.  Though there wasn't a lot of discussion about American or British stockpiles of "biologicals", back in the day they (we Canadians didn't admit to being as nasty) were as much into offensive chemical warfare as our adversaries.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Back in the day (Cold War)" was over 30 years ago.  What's relevant is what everyone is doing now.  With respect to any given country, there are really only two possibilities: they are, or they aren't.


----------



## MilEME09

Patients died from neglect, not COVID-19, in Ontario LTC homes, military report finds: ‘All they needed was water and a wipe down’
					

Military report finds many residents of two Ontario nursing homes died of malnutrition and dehydration




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Well now this doesn't look good, again for how the LTC situation was, and probably still is.


----------



## CBH99

Messerschmitt said:


> I don't have the reference right now but something like over 66% of those were essential travelers (airline and landborder). You can have the thoughest restrictons you want (28 days in quarantine, 1-1 escort to hotel, etc, more crazier than Australia, etc), it's all worthless if 4 million are never tested or quarantined. But it will look like politicians do something about it and the sheep will buy it, even though is as ineffective as closing down golf courses.


That's what a lot of the current restrictions are, the appearance of doing something.  

My mother and I often have quite deep political debates, which we both enjoy, as we are both able to discuss issues without illogical loyalty to any one party or idea, etc.  When they first introduced the 'arrows on the floor' at grocery stores and whatnot, I had brought up _"it is the appearance of doing something, so the average person feels safer.  That's it though.  It's the appearance of doing something - the virus doesn't care which direction you are walking.  If someone stops to get something off a shelf, and you walk behind/past them, the virus doesn't care which direction you are going..."_

She had thought I was being harsh, and replied - albeit correctly overall - that this was going to be a learning experience in many ways, but I was being overly harsh.  That wasn't my intention, especially at the beginning of the pandemic with places like Italy and NYC getting hammered hard, and being fully aware that if my mother caught it, I highly doubt she'd survive.  


Fast forward to now, and I think she's finally seen through the veil of blind trust in government.  Not being allowed to get her nails or hair done one week, then allowed the next week, then 2 weeks later, back to not being allowed.  Her grandson (don't worry folks, I didn't reproduce!  Have a dog and she's my world) - isn't allowed to shake hands before or after a basketball game, but can still play the game (sweating and panting all over each other).

There are restrictions that absolutely make sense, which I think everybody supports unless they are just ignorant of the situation overall.  Some things though, seem to just be for optics sake.  I am glad the vaccine rollout has picked up pace, and as of Friday approx 15.7M Canadians have had their first injection.  So while the total number of fully vaccinated people is still fairly low, we need to take the good when it comes - and 15.7M having their first vaccine is really good news.  Now that vaccines are coming in much more often & much larger shipments, I have high hopes for May & June.


*My question to your post above is (not to you specifically, an open question for anybody) - is what truly constitutes an 'essential' traveller?  As the world has adjusted to using phone calls & video conferencing for so many things (some western governments have even been run via video conferencing) -- what would we, or should we, consider an essential traveller?*


----------



## Messerschmitt

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, the "leaked" document was a book published in 2015 and openly sold on Amazon.
> 
> Sky News Australia is tapping into the global conspiracy set
> 
> Overall, we rate Sky News Australia Right-Biased based on story selection and editorial positions that mostly favor the right. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to *failed fact checks, unproven claims, as well as the promotion of conspiracy theories and misinformation*. Media Bias/Fact Check - Search and Learn the Bias of News Media


Uuuu, the fact checkers, which are paid big bucks by political parties and agenda makers who mark everything as "FALSE" if anything/anyone dares to stop drinking the mainstream kool aid and dare say anything against the narrative.

Sky News Australia is doing a ten fold better job at actual journalism than completely biased media such as CNN, CBC or CTV, which all push their agenda hardcore.

But CNN the best right? RIGHT?






Or will the fact checkers come in and say that Sky News Australia faked the footage uncovering CNN blatant lies via hidden cameras (through project veritas)???

You can also fact check this








						A brief, terrifying history of viruses escaping from labs: 70s Chinese pandemic was a lab mistake
					

The danger of a manmade pandemic sparked by a laboratory escape is not hypothetical




					nationalpost.com
				






> In 2010, 244 unintended releases of bioweapon candidate “select agents” were reported.


----------



## FJAG

Messerschmitt said:


> ...
> Sky News Australia is doing a ten fold better job at actual journalism than completely biased media such as CNN, CBC or CTV, which all push their agenda hardcore.
> 
> But CNN the best right? RIGHT?
> ...


I see that you left Fox off that list.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

None of them give a rats ass about journalism, just whatever makes you click the headline link...


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> Sky News Australia is doing a ten fold better job at actual journalism than completely biased media.


Sky News Australia isn't biased? Bullshit.

Of course, if you think they're doing "actual journalism"  that explains a lot of your posts.


----------



## CBH99

Maybe I read that or interpreted his statement slightly differently...

The way I read it is that they are doing a better job of 'actual journalism' than 'completely biased media'.  I didn't read it as him saying it wasn't biased, just not as biased as a lot of American mainstream media.  (And sadly, Canadian also, among others.)  



Regardless, I think we all agree - the mainstream media wit large is extremely biased, so blatantly so that they don't even attempt to appear impartial anymore.  Whether it is CNN on one side or Fox on the other, or CBC, CTV, etc etc - a majority of mainstream media sources are biased, do mislead the public, and don't seem to attempt to be impartial anymore.

Personally, I don't know how what the mainstream media does it even legal, to be honest.  I understand there is a freedom of speech in most developed countries, and any attempt to persuade that one way or the other is fraught with moral, philosophical, and legal concerns.  But I do feel like there has to be a better, more honest way than what is currently being done - regardless of which mainstream media source is in question.


Take for example the CBC and CTV news coverage of the RCMP taking down a drunk, combative man last year in Ft. McMurray, who just so happened to be First Nations.  (His race is completely irrelevant - if I was behaving that way towards a police officer, I would have every expectation they would take me down hard, and rightfully so.)

Both CBC and CTV ran with the narrative that this man was beaten by an RCMP officer simply due to his race, and his only crime was an expired license plate.  This man then went on to host a press release, going on about how he was a victim of racism and how 'it just needs to stop.'

Fast forward to The Edmonton Journal, who released the entire incident via dashcam - unedited, and unnarrated, on Youtube.  The raw footage released by The Edmonton Journal shows a completely different situation than what was narrated to the general public by both CBC and CTV, despite all of the news agencies having access to the same footage.  CBC and CTV decided to only show the public approximately 4 seconds (I'm not making that up) of a 10 minute long video.


So when I ask, just casually and openly, how is that legal?  This is just one example of how a company manipulated information, and purposefully broadcast that information/narrative to the general public, to convince them of a situation that didn't happen, in order to fuel public outrage.  

Biased?  Yes.   
Legal?  Shouldn't be.  (But where do we draw the line?  How do we create a system in which the public can start to trust the media again?)


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Maybe I read that or interpreted his statement slightly differently...
> 
> The way I read it is that they are doing a better job of 'actual journalism' than 'completely biased media'.  I didn't read it as him saying it wasn't biased, just not as biased as a lot of American mainstream media.  (And sadly, Canadian also, among others.)
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless, I think we all agree - the mainstream media wit large is extremely biased, so blatantly so that they don't even attempt to appear impartial anymore.  Whether it is CNN on one side or Fox on the other, or CBC, CTV, etc etc - a majority of mainstream media sources are biased, do mislead the public, and don't seem to attempt to be impartial anymore.
> 
> Personally, I don't know how what the mainstream media does it even legal, to be honest.  I understand there is a freedom of speech in most developed countries, and any attempt to persuade that one way or the other is fraught with moral, philosophical, and legal concerns.  But I do feel like there has to be a better, more honest way than what is currently being done - regardless of which mainstream media source is in question.
> 
> 
> Take for example the CBC and CTV news coverage of the RCMP taking down a drunk, combative man last year in Ft. McMurray, who just so happened to be First Nations.  (His race is completely irrelevant - if I was behaving that way towards a police officer, I would have every expectation they would take me down hard, and rightfully so.)
> 
> Both CBC and CTV ran with the narrative that this man was beaten by an RCMP officer simply due to his race, and his only crime was an expired license plate.  This man then went on to host a press release, going on about how he was a victim of racism and how 'it just needs to stop.'
> 
> Fast forward to The Edmonton Journal, who released the entire incident via dashcam - unedited, and unnarrated, on Youtube.  The raw footage released by The Edmonton Journal shows a completely different situation than what was narrated to the general public by both CBC and CTV, despite all of the news agencies having access to the same footage.  CBC and CTV decided to only show the public approximately 4 seconds (I'm not making that up) of a 10 minute long video.
> 
> 
> So when I ask, just casually and openly, how is that legal?  This is just one example of how a company manipulated information, and purposefully broadcast that information/narrative to the general public, to convince them of a situation that didn't happen, in order to fuel public outrage.
> 
> Biased?  Yes.
> Legal?  Shouldn't be.  (But where do we draw the line?  How do we create a system in which the public can start to trust the media again?)


Media bias is always a popular topic of conversation. Even has its own 70-page mega-thread.








						Media Bias [Merged]
					

As everyone who visits this site is by now well aware, monumental changes are about to beset the Canadian Forces. So far, only the print media has carried this story, with perhaps the exception of Canwest media [not sure about them - too Toronto centric for me to watch!!!]  The CBC in particular...




					navy.ca


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Media bias is always a popular topic of conversation. Even has its own 70-page mega-thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Media Bias [Merged]
> 
> 
> As everyone who visits this site is by now well aware, monumental changes are about to beset the Canadian Forces. So far, only the print media has carried this story, with perhaps the exception of Canwest media [not sure about them - too Toronto centric for me to watch!!!]  The CBC in particular...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> navy.ca


Seen.

Sorry, wasn't attempting to derail the thread.  Was just trying to spritz some water on the hotspot in the thread above me  🕊️


----------



## PMedMoe

CBH99 said:


> Maybe I read that or interpreted his statement slightly differently...
> 
> The way I read it is that they are doing a better job of 'actual journalism' than 'completely biased media'.  I didn't read it as him saying it wasn't biased, just not as biased as a lot of American mainstream media.  (And sadly, Canadian also, among others.)



Just so you know, Sky News Australia is completely biased: Sky News Australia - Media Bias/Fact Check

I agree that many news outlets are biased, which is why it makes sense to read from several different sites. It's also good to keep in mind which ones are factual as well.  I use this chart (found here).


----------



## RangerRay

In my opinion, there’s a world of difference between biased and factual (e.g. National Post, CBC) and biased and “make-shit-up” (e.g. HuffPost, Gateway Pundit, Post Millennial).


----------



## Messerschmitt

Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest? I always thought that was the case, but the info never came out, and I was called a conspiracy theorist. Well, here's it is now.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-icu-nurses-doctors-pay-1.6022363
		



FJAG said:


> I see that you left Fox off that list.


Fox news astoundingly had more factual coverage on the election than CNN. They have gained my respect for that. Meanwhile even CBC was biased during the election vs just reporting on the actual results.


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest? I always thought that was the case, but the info never came out, and I was called a conspiracy theorist. Well, here's it is now.


Holy shit! You cracked it!!  That's _ultimate proof_ that doctors are pushing the lockdown agenda!


----------



## Remius

Messerschmitt said:


> Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest? I always thought that was the case, but the info never came out, and I was called a conspiracy theorist. Well, here's it is now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-icu-nurses-doctors-pay-1.6022363
> 
> 
> 
> Fox news astoundingly had more factual coverage on the election than CNN. They have gained my respect for that. Meanwhile even CBC was biased during the election vs just reporting on the actual results.


Criticizing the CBC and using a link to the CBC to support a weird argument all in the same post.  Gold.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Remius said:


> Criticizing the CBC and using a link to the CBC to support a weird argument all in the same post.  Gold.


Because this article has nothing to do with partisanship or left/right agenda


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Messerschmitt said:


> Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest? I always thought that was the case, but the info never came out, and I was called a conspiracy theorist.


My GF's Sister works as a dietician in a Hamilton, Ontario hospital.  Just that, a dietician,  no medical , yet she started working 2 weeks ago in an ICU as they are incredibly short on staff that aren't burnt out.  She hates it, I repeat, SHE HATES IT, has seen a man and a women both in thier 40's die.  She's a traveller and couldn't wait to go on a trip as soon as the lockdown is over.  No more....

If you doubt thier reasons go volunteer, scrub up, and get in there yourself.  See if you still think anyone is doing this for an agenda.


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest?


How the Hell would I know? They went to medical school. I didn't.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> My GF's Sister works as a dietician in a Hamilton, Ontario hospital.  Just that, a dietician,  no medical , yet she started working 2 weeks ago in an ICU as they are incredibly short on staff that aren't burnt out.  She hates it, I repeat, SHE HATES IT, has seen a man and a women both in thier 40's die.  She's a traveller and couldn't wait to go on a trip as soon as the lockdown is over.  No more....
> 
> If you doubt thier reasons go volunteer, scrub up, and get in there yourself.  See if you still think anyone is doing this for an agenda.


Was she paid $350/$450 an HOUR for it?

And I DEFINITELY would get there, scrub up and anything else I'd need to do including wiping shit and cleaning puke bags (or whatever it's generally gross in a hospital) for $350/450 and hour. That's my entire's month salary in 24hrs!

Except doctors don't do that! It's the care aides that get paid $25/hr.


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Was she paid $350/$450 an HOUR for it?
> 
> And I DEFINITELY would get there, scrub up and anything else I'd need to do including wiping shit and cleaning puke bags (or whatever it's generally gross in a hospital) for $350/450 and hour. That's my entire's month salary in 24hrs!


My ex is Director of Quality, Performance, Professional Practice and Chief Nursing Executive at a major downtown hospital. I follow the Sunshine List. She isn't making that.

As far as money goes, SARS was financially the best time of my career. Would I want to go through it again with Sars-Cov-2? No way!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Messerschmitt said:


> Anyone else thinks the doctors are not pushing the lockdown agenda for their own interest? I always thought that was the case, but the info never came out, and I was called a conspiracy theorist. Well, here's it is now.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-icu-nurses-doctors-pay-1.6022363
> 
> 
> 
> Fox news astoundingly had more factual coverage on the election than CNN. They have gained my respect for that. Meanwhile even CBC was biased during the election vs just reporting on the actual results.



Based on how uncomfortable Theresa Tam looks on TV every day... no. No I don't.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If you ask medical professionals for advice, you're going to get advice situated to favour the best medical outcomes.  Advice really needs to come from multi-disciplined people, or people with experience weighing factors across disciplines.  Economists seem to be about the best choice.


----------



## Remius

If I were to ever need professional medical advice an economist would not be my first choice.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Pandemic response is at the intersection of medicine, politics, and daily life; probably some more, but those are the three which weigh most heavily upon us.


----------



## FJAG

Messerschmitt said:


> ...
> Fox news astoundingly had more factual coverage on the election than CNN. They have gained my respect for that. Meanwhile even CBC was biased during the election vs just reporting on the actual results.


 Oh that's a good one! CBC biased - sure I'll buy that. Fox and factual coverage - I'll give you that Fox News division isn't too bad but most of their programing and website is their opinion crap which is so far out there in LaLaLand that it far outweighs any respect that the News division may earn.

🍻


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Fox news astoundingly had more factual coverage on the election than CNN. They have gained my respect for that.


I replied in a non-Covid thread,









						Media Bias [Merged]
					

The eminent ERC says it far more eloquently then I do in my drive by posts.  https://coloneltedcampbell.blog/2019/11/08/its-time-to-end-this-rubbish/




					www.milnet.ca


----------



## Remius

Delay in giving second jabs of Pfizer vaccine improves immunity
					

Study finds antibodies against Sars-CoV-2 three-and-a-half times higher in people vaccinated again after 12 weeks rather than three




					www.theguardian.com
				




Looks like delaying the second shot is a good idea.  Canada getting lucky again lol.


----------



## kratz

One bit at a time.



> NS Province gets injunction to block all anti-public health order protests
> 
> Ban prevents groups from staging illegal gatherings in defiance of public health orders
> 
> The provincial government has been granted an injunction that will put a stop to all anti-vaccine and anti-public health order protests, including an anti-mask rally that was planned for Saturday in Halifax.



I agree the virus needs to be stopped, but the ease which governments continue to roll forward with restrictions is just as concerning.


----------



## PuckChaser

Considering the Health Minister/Ministry refuses to tell Canadians what restrictions will be lifted when they're vaccinated, it doesn't seem like we're getting lucky at all. Pretty hard to win over vaccine-hesitant people when there's literally no light at the end of the tunnel or targets for vaccination numbers.

Contrast that with the US, where they're giving out vaccines to people attending baseball games (for a Canadian team, that can't play in Canada).

Vaccines Will be Offered at Blue Jays Games in Buffalo


----------



## CBH99

kratz said:


> One bit at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree the virus needs to be stopped, but the ease which governments continue to roll forward with restrictions is just as concerning.











						Canada’s lockdowns nearly as strict as communist China, Cuba: Oxford University
					

Canada’s current lockdown measures are some of the most stringent in the world rivalling authoritarian communist states like China and Cuba, Oxford University’s COVID-19 Government Response Tracker suggests.




					tnc.news
				





Obviously, things change on a weekly basis, and differ from province to province.  However, it is concerning that governments of all levels seem extremely slow to give back the freedoms they were so quick to take away in the name of public health.  

Were restrictions necessary?  Yes, especially before the vaccines became available.  But now that vaccines are available, and are becoming drastically more abundant this month & the months to follow...it would be nice for a government to roll out a solid framework for staged reopening.

In some parts of the country, like Ontario, it has gone way too far.  Even when Doug Ford gets to call the shots, and has an opportunity to shine (like he seemed to at the beginning of the pandemic) - it seems like the rolling cluster**** that is government is still quite prevalent.  Hopefully the various political parties can start to debate, vote, and govern the country as it should be soon.  (Dysfunctional, but with democratic principals as it's foundation.)








						Governor Ron DeSantis Signs Landmark Legislation to Ban Vaccine Passports and Stem Government Overreach
					






					www.flgov.com
				




I understand the numbers of people vaccinated is a big factor at play here, but it is still quite the comparison when looking at the 'spirit' of government intentions.  While many schools, airlines, employers, etc etc will probably require proof of vaccination - and that will undoubtedly be challenged in court with solid legal arguments to be made by both sides - it is good to see a government taking steps to try to get things back to as normal as possible.



With 17.3M Canadians having received at least one dose (and lets remember that many younger Canadians either aren't eligible, or required, etc.) out of a population of roughly 36M, we should start having discussions about reopening.  It would certainly motivate people who have procrastinated or just not cared to get off their butts and go get it.  

0.02


----------



## PuckChaser

I should have checked the news, PHAC has graced us with its targets and they're absolutely ridiculous, it's like they pulled these numbers out of their asses.

Canadians can look forward to small, outdoor summer gatherings if vaccine targets are met: officials

Summary:

Summer Target - 75% eligible with 1 dose plus 20% fully vaccinated
Fall Target - 75% fully vaccinated

Total eligible population in Canada is estimated at 32 Million (ages 15 and up, there's probably a couple K extra from the 12-14 group Stats Can didn't have)
75% = 24 Million
20% = 6.4 Million

Canada currently has 17 Million doses delivered, climbing roughly +330K a day. We could hit that 24 Million single doses in a month (21 days). The issue is the fully vaccinated crowd. We're at 1.36 Million, climbing roughly +26K a day (which will slowly climb as less people need that single dose). If the current rate of fully vaccinated folks climbs at the same pace, it's 194 days before 20% of Canadians are fully vaccinated. Let's assume the rate doubles as supply grows, that's still 97 days. So maybe mid-August before you're allowed to have a @#$@#ing picnic outside.

Then they have the gaul to suggest we can't be normal until we hit 75% fully vaccinated. Again, incredibly slow rate that will speed up as more get single doses, but if we assume 6.4 Million fully vaccinated by August, and the rates flip where we're doing 300K fully vaccinated a day, you can maybe have a Thanksgiving dinner with family. Contrast this with the Israeli data, that went from 10K cases per day (13 Jan) with 1.3% fully vaccinated, to 29 cases per day today with 56.3% fully vaccinated (60% have at least 1 dose). If we can't get back to absolute normal with 29 cases per day, we live in a utopian society where we'll keep everyone locked in their houses until no one dies again. This 75% fully vaccinated number is just straight fear mongering, with no basis in science.

Canadians aren't stupid, but PHAC sure thinks we are. The good news is that some provinces like Saskatchewan are rejecting draconian lockdowns and magic numbers by starting to slowly open their economies. Hopefully Ontario follows Scott Moe's lead, but Doug Ford seems blinded to follow the "COVID Zero" Ontario Science Table that looks like they want no one to ever die from COVID ever again.


----------



## Messerschmitt

PuckChaser said:


> I should have checked the news, PHAC has graced us with its targets and they're absolutely ridiculous, it's like they pulled these numbers out of their asses.
> 
> Canadians can look forward to small, outdoor summer gatherings if vaccine targets are met: officials
> 
> Summary:
> 
> Summer Target - 75% eligible with 1 dose plus 20% fully vaccinated
> Fall Target - 75% fully vaccinated
> 
> Total eligible population in Canada is estimated at 32 Million (ages 15 and up, there's probably a couple K extra from the 12-14 group Stats Can didn't have)
> 75% = 24 Million
> 20% = 6.4 Million
> 
> Canada currently has 17 Million doses delivered, climbing roughly +330K a day. We could hit that 24 Million single doses in a month (21 days). The issue is the fully vaccinated crowd. We're at 1.36 Million, climbing roughly +26K a day (which will slowly climb as less people need that single dose). If the current rate of fully vaccinated folks climbs at the same pace, it's 194 days before 20% of Canadians are fully vaccinated. Let's assume the rate doubles as supply grows, that's still 97 days. So maybe mid-August before you're allowed to have a @#$@#ing picnic outside.
> 
> Then they have the gaul to suggest we can't be normal until we hit 75% fully vaccinated. Again, incredibly slow rate that will speed up as more get single doses, but if we assume 6.4 Million fully vaccinated by August, and the rates flip where we're doing 300K fully vaccinated a day, you can maybe have a Thanksgiving dinner with family. Contrast this with the Israeli data, that went from 10K cases per day (13 Jan) with 1.3% fully vaccinated, to 29 cases per day today with 56.3% fully vaccinated (60% have at least 1 dose). If we can't get back to absolute normal with 29 cases per day, we live in a utopian society where we'll keep everyone locked in their houses until no one dies again. This 75% fully vaccinated number is just straight fear mongering, with no basis in science.
> 
> Canadians aren't stupid, but PHAC sure thinks we are. The good news is that some provinces like Saskatchewan are rejecting draconian lockdowns and magic numbers by starting to slowly open their economies. Hopefully Ontario follows Scott Moe's lead, but Doug Ford seems blinded to follow the "COVID Zero" Ontario Science Table that looks like they want no one to ever die from COVID ever again.


Well said.

If they think Canadians will give a fuck anymore come this summer, the govt is delusional. I'd actually be very disappointed to hear people are still holding up seeing loved ones, especially if they actually went through loneliness and suffered so much mentally to listen what the govt said they should do.

When I heard about Covid Zero strategy, I lost pretty much all hope from this inept govt and their "health officers" lackeys. I thought I must've somehow slid in a parallel universe.

Also, more stuff coming out.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1392138108855070728
Somehow I doubt the people responsible for this will ever be trialed for this mess where millions died.


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> people are still holding up seeing loved ones,


My wife must have sent a million photos and videos to my mother since the pandemic began. Phone her every day. I go shopping for her, and deliver to her doorstep.  We stand apart from each other in the backyard and chat. Sometimes walk down to Catfish Pond. Do everything I can for her. Because, she's my mom.

Got my first jab one day after she did.

As far as when I start breathing on her again? I will follow medical advice of the Public Health Unit. Not social media.


----------



## Messerschmitt

mariomike said:


> My wife must have sent a million photos and videos to my mother since the pandemic began. Phone her every day. I go shopping for her, and deliver to her doorstep.  We stand apart from each other in the backyard and chat. Sometimes walk down to Catfish Pond. Do everything I can for her. Because, she's my mom.
> 
> Got my first jab one day after she did.
> 
> As far as when I start breathing on her again? I will follow medical advice of the Public Health Unit. Not social media.


Good for you, I think you should do what you think it's the best, same for everybody else.

Meanwhile, I saw this article


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-united-states-border-talks-start-1.6027705
		


I was reading the comments and it's pretty astounding. Many I think genuinely believe US is still in much worse shape than Canada, and many are scared for the borders to open because "it's not safe", even though their vaccinations stats are through the roof vs Canada and US has a lower per capita cases.

Just shows how well the media propaganda works and how the fear porn makes many think that while Canada the situation is dire (it's not), the rest of the world, especially US, is much worse (it's not, it's actually far better). Makes me instantly think of how Trudeau said on TV that the UK is going through a 3rd wave like Canada, and it's much more deadlier


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Many I think genuinely believe US is still in much worse shape than Canada, and many are scared for the borders to open because "it's not safe", even though their vaccinations stats are through the roof vs Canada and US has a lower per capita cases.


For anyone at home keeping score,

Covid-19 deaths per 100,000 population as of *Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 06:29 AM EDT.*

United States 178.29

Canada 66.13









						Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.




					coronavirus.jhu.edu
				




Johns Hopkins University & Medicine



> Good for you, I think you should do what you think it's the best, same for everybody else.



I don't know what's best because I didn't go to medical school. I leave that up to the local Public Health Unit and follow their direction.


----------



## lenaitch

I feel I should be able to drive down the left side of the road with a beer in one hand and a cel-phone in the other.

It's call living in a civil society.   No right is absolute, even in the US of A, particularly when they collide.  If some folks don't like the fact that we have been restricted, or how, they are free to find a political party that was against all of it and pound lawn signs for them.  I'm sure Randy Hillier, Mad Max and Sloan will appreciate the support.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I feel I should be able to drive down the left side of the road with a beer in one hand and a cel-phone in the other.



If you built the road on your own land, go for it.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> For anyone at home keeping score,
> 
> Covid-19 deaths per 100,000 population as of *Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 06:29 AM EDT.*
> 
> United States 178.29
> 
> Canada 66.13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
> 
> 
> How does mortality differ across countries? Examining the number of deaths per confirmed case and per 100,000 population. A global comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coronavirus.jhu.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Johns Hopkins University & Medicine
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what's best because I didn't go to medical school. I leave that up to the local Public Health Unit and follow their direction.


Give yourself some credit there Mike.  I’d take the care of a career paramedic over some of the doctors I’ve met 9 times out of 10 😉👍🏻


----------



## CBH99

Messerschmitt said:


> Good for you, I think you should do what you think it's the best, same for everybody else.
> 
> Meanwhile, I saw this article
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-united-states-border-talks-start-1.6027705
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading the comments and it's pretty astounding. Many I think genuinely believe US is still in much worse shape than Canada, and many are scared for the borders to open because "it's not safe", even though their vaccinations stats are through the roof vs Canada and US has a lower per capita cases.
> 
> Just shows how well the media propaganda works and how the fear porn makes many think that while Canada the situation is dire (it's not), the rest of the world, especially US, is much worse (it's not, it's actually far better). Makes me instantly think of how Trudeau said on TV that the UK is going through a 3rd wave like Canada, and it's much more deadlier


**Not derailing this thread about the media. Promise!

But to be fair - and everybody knows I’m quite disappointed and skepticle of the MSM now.  So you aren’t alone in that.  

The number of deaths per capita (which is important to keep in mind when looking at numbers) - the US _was_ far worse than we were.  

For all of the criticism we give our health care system, we need to remember to recognize the great work it does on a regular basis also.  And on a per capita basis, the US numbers were a LOT higher.  

As for now, with the US obviously way ahead with their vaccinations?  Imagine the risk is pretty mitigated.  Our vaccination numbers have got some nice momentum behind them also now 

Numbers will be hard to determine as the number of people vaccinated increases each day (in both countries).  And like you referenced with media and fear...they aren’t reporting the ‘daily vaccinated cases’.  

BUT... in many parts of the world is was as bad as the media proclaimed.  While the UK is planning to reopen June 21st, my sister is a nurse practitioner there, and it was BAD.  Lockdowns were enforced heavily, and it WAS as bad as they said it was.


----------



## Messerschmitt

CBH99 said:


> BUT... in many parts of the world is was as bad as the media proclaimed.  While the UK is planning to reopen June 21st, my sister is a nurse practitioner there, and it was BAD.  Lockdowns were enforced heavily, and it WAS as bad as they said it was.


I agree, but we need to look what it is now. And Canada is doing worse in terms of vaccines and cases vs US, UK and many EU countries. At least we are getting a bunch of vaccines in the next few weeks.

And this is important. Every country has a opening plan, US, UK, EU. Canada has nothing (actually SK out of all has a plan too). We get a "we'll see how it goes" and when I hear about the zero covid approach Trudeau and Ford are mentioning, I roll my eyes and if the government thinks I'm going to follow their restrictions as summer comes and everyone that wants a vaccine got one they are delusional. And I know for a fact many think the same. Might as well go zero cancer, zero car accidents, zero drug overdose, zero heart attack (I'm looking at you fatties, oh wait, that's taboo and we must be "body positive"), so we all can live forever!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Why do you ruin a good message with such assholeness at the end?


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Might as well go zero cancer, zero car accidents, zero drug overdose, zero heart attack (I'm looking at you fatties, oh wait, that's taboo and we must be "body positive"), so we all can live forever!


Reminds me of a pep talk in a movie I went to at the Runnymeade Theatre back in the early 1970's,



> The cripple, the junkie...the wounded, and the dying--
> they're not worthless...not to us.
> To us, each one is worth $42.50.
> plus 50 cents a mile.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Reminds me of a pep talk in a movie I went to at the Runnymeade Theatre back in the early 1970's,



Ummm, I didn't make the post you are quoting, Messerschmitt did.  Must be a software bug. I'm going to report it on that basis only.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Ummm, I didn't make the post you are quoting, Messerschmitt did.  Must be a software bug. I'm going to report it on that basis only.


I'm sorry lenaitch! My mistake. I corrected it. Was not quoting you. Sloppy of me. Thanks for pointing it out. < double-face palm emoji >


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> I'm sorry lenaitch! My mistake. I corrected it. Was not quoting you. Sloppy of me. Thanks for pointing it out. < double-face palm emoji >



No worries.  I figured it was a technical snag.   I didn't know one could alter the attribution tag on a quote.


----------



## mariomike

Remember when Gus "screwed the pooch" in the "Right Stuff"? 



> *It was a GLITCH*. It was a- *a TECHNICAL MALFUNCTION*. Why in hell won't anyone believe me?


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> Remember when Gus "screwed the pooch" in the "Right Stuff"?


Frankly, Hollywood can fuck off.

To sensationalize the movie, it played to an old, disproven rumour, and was patently unfair to a dead man and his surviving spouse. Fellow Mercury astronaut Wally Schirra backed up Gus’ position that the hatch system failed and jettisoned when it came in contact with the water.  Had Grissom blown the hatch manually, he would have had deep bruising...exactly as Schirra’s had in the flight right after Grissom, where he had to manually blow the hatch.
(Link; Disproving the Grissom-Mercury 2 hatch ordeal)

Sadly it wasn’t the last time that the speed of the program and the shortcuts taken would affect Gus.  He (and fellow Apollo 1 astronauts Ed White and Roger Chaffee) died when a fire swept through the oxygen-rich atmosphere of the Apollo capsule and the safety crew couldn’t open the ridiculously configured manual bolted hatch cover (no emergency explosive jettison function as the Mercury capsules from Grissom’s ‘Liberty 7’ capsule throughout the remainder of the Mercury program.

Not to be too pedantic, but people who braved incredible risks and indeed those who eventually lost their lives daring to explore, deserve not to be screwed over by a bunch of poncey Hollywood film executives trying to add more drama than existed, and in so doing, inappropriately tarnishing the reputation of a valiant space explorer and renewing the pain of his grieving family.

Regards
G2G


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> Frankly, Hollywood can fuck off.


Hollywood insiders have said, " Behind the phoney tinsel of Hollywood lies the real tinsel."

I'm shocked Hollywood would stoop to deceit. < sarcasm emoji >

Hopefully an apology was issued to the family, along with a sizeable cheque to the charity of their choice.


----------



## PuckChaser

Folks, just because this thread isn't in the political area doesn't mean you get a free pass to name call politicians. We've been above doing that through a pretty tough 18 months, lets not bail on decorum now.

- Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-vaccines-moderna-pfizer-1.6027657
		


Well maybe I was wrong and the one dose and time delay being a fortunate accident for us.


----------



## Loachman

'Unjustified fears': When COVID-19 anxiety stops making sense
					

Polls keep showing that the public believes COVID-19 disease is way deadlier and more pervasive than it really is




					www.thewhig.com
				




German Chancellor Angela Merkel said that the U.K. variant had been “proven to be more dangerous in children and young people.” Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe just this week said that the variants are “shown to be more dangerous to young people.”

But that’s wrong: The variants are more transmissible and have landed more young people in hospital due to  more cases, but there’s no clear evidence they’re deadlier or make people sicker. “We did not identify an association of the variant with severe disease,” reads a recent study in The Lancet which followed a few hundred patients hospitalized with the B.1.1.7  variant - the so-called U.K. variant, because it was first identified there. A more comprehensive study tracking nearly 37,000 Brits using the COVID Symptom Study found the same thing: “There was no evidence of an association between the proportion of infections with the B.1.1.7 variant and the number of symptoms reported over a 4-week period.”

It is far from the first time that public fears about COVID-19 did not match the reality on the ground. B.C. anesthesiologist Pooya Kazemi is one of a community of Canadian doctors actively criticizing overzealous lockdown measures. As he told National Post, “there is definitely a huge mismatch between what the literature shows and how people are behaving.”

North America is now definitively entering the final days of COVID-19. Even in Canada - with ongoing third waves in both Ontario and Alberta - deaths remain way down from their January highs and mass vaccination is rapidly shielding whole sections of the population from lethal harm. But as our pandemic deliverance approaches, physicians and researchers are now warning of a new public health challenge: *When normalcy arrives, many may refuse to accept it*.

A familiar pattern has emerged whenever a pollster asks the public to gauge the risks of COVID-19: Across the board, people think the disease is deadlier and more pervasive than it really is.

A recent survey from the Netherlands found that Dutch people think COVID-19 is about as dangerous as Ebola - a disease that kills 50 per cent of its patients.

A survey of pandemic anxiety among more than 6,000 Canadians last spring found that stress was particularly high among those of “younger age”  the one group that is relatively insulated from the epidemiological consequences of the disease. The same survey also found an “association between left-wing views and stress worsening.”

In February, a French survey saw respondents estimating that COVID-19 killed one in every six people who caught it. The actual figures are closer to one in every 400  and that ratio plunges dramatically for people under 70.  “Respondents overestimated the probabilities to catch or die from COVID-19,” wrote researchers.

In a July survey out of the United States, respondents estimated that about 40 per cent of U.S. COVID-19 fatalities were under the age of 55. Their estimate was wrong by a factor of six: Under-55s actually accounted for just 7.3 per cent of U.S. fatalities.

Poll responses were even more wrong when it came to COVID-19’s threat to children. Respondents said that around eight per cent of fatalities were under 24. In truth, it’s about 0.1 per cent. Notably, these overestimations were common to both Republicans and Democrats.

“Unjustified fears” of COVID-19 are “very, very real,” said Nova Scotia emergency physician Aris Lavranos. “It’s almost maddening trying to change the public perception.”

Ironically, much of the world entered this pandemic with the opposite problem: As COVID-19’s first wave silently surged through Canadian and the United States in early 2020, people and policymakers weren’t nearly scared enough about its potential for harm: Borders stayed open, travellers went unscreened and, in many cases, officials actively discouraged basic protective measures such as masking or social distancing.

Now, as COVID wanes across the developed world, psychiatrists are warning of a wave of COVID-centric anxiety. “Those with severe health anxiety are likely to become abnormally avoidant, continuing to isolate and practise repeated hand washing, checking their body temperatures, respiratory function, and even testing their ability to smell … over and over again,” reads a paper on “COVID-19 health anxiety” in the journal World Psychiatry.

In October, U.K. psychologists devised a questionnaire to gauge the severity of what they called “COVID-19 anxiety syndrome.” One of the questions has respondents answering how many times in the past two weeks they “have read about news relating to coronavirus … at the cost of engaging in work.”

Singapore has seen only 31 deaths from COVID-19, but even they are not immune to COVID-19 anxiety. A recent study examining “inflated risk perceptions” among an elderly community in Singapore concluded that “the affective symptoms of anxiety and depression should not be overlooked; if prolonged, these mental health consequences may result in longer-term problems than the pandemic itself.”

Mental health concerns aside, there’s the very real policy problem that if the public isn’t reckoning with the realities of COVID-19, they’re more apt to back restrictions that make very little sense.

Governments have continued to order the closure of playgrounds despite no evidence for them as vectors of transmission. Stefan Baral, an associate professor of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health noted back in February that of 99,226 COVID-19 studies to date, not one had identified playgrounds as “common sources in outbreaks.”

A similar phenomenon has been occurring across the continent through the continued closure of schools in jurisdictions such as Ontario and California. “We know that they’re not major sources of spread, we know that they weren’t major sources of outbreak and we know about the downsides of school closures,” said Ottawa ICU physician Kwadwo Kyeremanteng in a recent video calling for the reopening of Ontario schools.

Pediatricians have similarly called out Ontario’s closures of summer camps. “There really are no medical or other reasons to delay further,” reads a recent statement by Pediatricians of Ontario.

Outdoor transmission of COVID-19 is estimated to represent only 0.1 per cent of cases. In one rigorous study that traced COVID-19 cases in Wuhan, China, only one of 7,324 infections occurred outdoors. Ireland performed a careful analysis of all 232,164 their confirmed COVID-19 cases and found that only 262 came from the outdoors.

Nevertheless, broad bans on outdoor recreation remain in place in Ontario, including continued forced closures of the province’s golf courses.

This week, the U.S. CDC reversed its recommendations that Americans should continue to wear masks even after full vaccination. No new evidence underlay the decision: Rather, it came months after it was already well-known that viral transmission was infinitesimally low among the vaccinated. As San Francisco-based physician and epidemiologist Vinay Prasad wrote in a Thursday tweet, “there was no credible evidence ever to ask vaccinated adults to wear a mask.”

Nevertheless, mask mandates remain in place even for fully vaccinated Canadians. Health Canada is continuing to demand that vaccinated Canadians follow all social distancing restrictions until at least 75 per cent of Canadian adults have received at least one dose.

“The one thing I’m seeing is that the government refusal to provide a roadmap back to normal is actually worsening vaccine hesitancy,” said Kazemi. He pointed to a recent UCLA survey finding that Americans were significantly more likely to take the vaccine if it meant being free to go maskless.

It’s why, despite his fervent pro-vaccine stance, Kazemi says he strongly objects to any efforts to shame  people who are doubtful of the shot. When vaccination changes nothing in a Canadian’s life, “it makes people hopeless,” he said. “I think it’s time to be proactive in term of what our exit strategy looks like.”


----------



## QV

Curious, anyone know how Texas is doing now?


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Curious, anyone know how Texas is doing now?


Death rates from coronavirus (COVID-19) in the United States as of May 17, 2021, by state(per 100,000 people)​








						U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
					

As of December 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 439 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.




					www.statista.com


----------



## Quirky

QV said:


> Curious, anyone know how Texas is doing now?



Simple google search will show you daily rates and deaths have plummeted. Peoples wish to see overflowing hospitals and morgues have not come to fruition. The anti-maskers and vaxers are not as bad as the talking heads on our media networks who warn of opening too soon. Government, officials and policymakers have consistently lied to us throughout this pandemic. Sometimes those lies are by omission, sometimes they are outright, and sometimes they are just representing data poorly.

This pandemic should absolutely degrade the trust that the public has in these institutions. At this point the people most likely to die are either dead, had covid or are vaccinated. People getting sick now are largely younger and less likely to die, and treatments have improved.

Meanwhile in Atlantic Canada:









						Halifax District RCMP charge woman for failing to physical distance
					

Police in Halifax have charged a woman for failing to social distance under Nova Scotia's Health Protection Act.



					atlantic.ctvnews.ca
				






> Once police arrived, they located a woman and three youths sitting at a table. Police say none of the individuals were wearing masks, nor were they physically distanced from each other.
> 
> 
> A ticket was issued to the woman for failing to social distance and police “warned the youths.”
> 
> The ticket carries a fine amount of $2,422.



This has gone into utter lunacy and crossing the line into crazyville. The Maritimes are getting exactly what they deserve, fear of the virus driving more fear into ratting out one another. That situation is comical watching that province self-destruct into an Orwell novel.


----------



## Remius

I’d be curious to see what the interaction was.

most of these interactions end with warnings or reminders.  The ones that end in fines are normally the ones where the offender gets all indignant and insulting.  

self destruct.... man you are something else.  You really need to leave your echo chamber.


----------



## kratz

Sadly,
Since the provincial court order against gatherings. Warnings are a thing of the past. Tickets are first and arrest are a close second the past four days.


----------



## CBH99

Remius said:


> I’d be curious to see what the interaction was.
> 
> most of these interactions end with warnings or reminders.  The ones that end in fines are normally the ones where the offender gets all indignant and insulting.
> 
> self destruct.... man you are something else.  You really need to leave your echo chamber.


I have to go with QV on this one.

Literal self-destruction?  No.  That would leave future global maps looking a bit odd...

BUT, self-destruction of values and national identity?  It's sad to see how easily and quickly fear replaced the values that made Canada what it was, and hopefully what we can return to.  

The business may have been closed, but it doesn't mention anything about criminal charges, so I'm guessing they didn't break in and then just sit around.  And fined an amount that is pretty steep.  If it was a woman and 3 youths, was it a family?  If so, didn't they all just eventually leave and go home together?  


Regardless.  Vaccinations have momentum, and we can't keep this up forever.  Seniors are mostly vaccinated, adults who chose to be vaccinated are done, and the numbers of people getting vaccinated daily keeps getting higher & higher.  It's time the government, and provinces, start talking about plans to reopen and relax things.  Unless they plan to stretch this out as long as they possibly can?  Which I don't see how that benefits them economically.  (Just my 0.02)


----------



## Remius

Again with the fear.  People are just being responsible and don’t want to see anyone hurt.  

i wear a mask  and I social distance not out of fear but out of social responsibility and being a good citizen.  The same reason I wear seat belt, have reflectors on my bike and take a cab home instead of driving when I have too many drinks.

the only fear mongering I see is people who think society is collapsing and yell that Canada has lost its values and that we are turning into a communist state.  It’s getting old.

we have a few weeks left.  Anti lock down, anti mask, anti whatever snowflakes can tough it out that long  I’m sure.


----------



## Infanteer

Remius said:


> Again with the fear.  People are just being responsible and don’t want to see anyone hurt.
> 
> i wear a mask  and I social distance not out of fear but out of social responsibility and being a good citizen.  The same reason I wear seat belt, have reflectors on my bike and take a cab home instead of driving when I have too many drinks.
> 
> the only fear mongering I see is people who think society is collapsing and yell that Canada has lost its values and that we are turning into a communist state.  It’s getting old.


This.

Sometimes some forget that with freedom comes responsibility, or the whole thing starts to drag from friction.

For those worried about the liberal democratic state morphing into an authoritarian dictatorship, you need to work in government at some point.  Bureaucrats are simply too busy with the problem in front of their nose to be capable of plotting a steal your liberty through some elaborate plan.


----------



## CBH99

Remius said:


> Again with the fear.  People are just being responsible and don’t want to see anyone hurt.
> 
> i wear a mask  and I social distance not out of fear but out of social responsibility and being a good citizen.  The same reason I wear seat belt, have reflectors on my bike and take a cab home instead of driving when I have too many drinks.
> 
> the only fear mongering I see is people who think society is collapsing and yell that Canada has lost its values and that we are turning into a communist state.  It’s getting old.
> 
> we have a few weeks left.  Anti lock down, anti mask, anti whatever snowflakes can tough it out that long  I’m sure.


I totally agree with you actually, for the most part.

It IS a very good thing that people are responsible, and cautious.  It IS a good thing that we don't undo our progress.  It IS a good idea that we do things to get us towards our end goal of relative normalcy, and IS a good that we remember there isn't some secret plot to turn this us into a communist regime.  (Having worked in government at both the federal level, and now provincial level - I often reassure folks of just how unable government is at planning/executing almost anything over the long term.)

However, I also believe it's important that we take a step back and look at where we are at now, objectively.  Should there be discussion about readjusting things, and how to eventually reopen?  Yes, I believe there should be.  Is it important that government start to address, if for no other reason than to reassure the public, of it's plans to get away from lockdowns?  Again, I believe it should.

Whining about masks & some restrictions is one thing.  Again, we need to make sure we don't undo our progress.  Asking why the governments at the federal and provincial level don't seem interested in formulating a reopening plan is a legitimate question.  (The US states mentioned all have pretty high vaccination rates, hence their numbers plummeting despite full reopenings.)  



I don't have any fear that we are secretly being transformed into a communist state, or anything like that.  HOWEVER, it seems like the government and the media was very quick to focus on infection rates, death rates, numbers, lockdowns, etc etc - yet seems very slow to talk about vaccination rates, or ask questions about staged reopenings, or a roadmap to normalcy, etc.

Enough vaccines are coming in now, and enough people have received at least their 1st dose, that the nature of the message should be changing.  (Again, just my 0.02)


----------



## OceanBonfire

Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie replaces Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dany-fortin-vaccine-krista-brodie-1.6030332
		










						Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie named as new national COVID-19 vaccine rollout lead
					

The federal government is passing on responsibility for steering the national logistical rollout of COVID-19 vaccines to Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie, who The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) has named the new vice-president of vaccine logistics and operations, replacing Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Brig.-Gen. Krista Brodie to replace Fortin on COVID-19 vaccine rollout - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In a statement released Monday evening, PHAC president Iain Stewart said Brodie will assume the role of Vice President of Vaccine Logistics and Operations "effective immediately."




					globalnews.ca
				




Her bio:






						Brigadier-General Krista Brodie: Vice President of Vaccine Logistics and Operations, Public Health Agency of Canada - Canada.ca
					

About Brigadier-General Brodie -- Brigadier-General Brodie, joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1989. She is a graduate of Royal Roads Military College and was commissioned under the Regular Officer Training Program




					www.canada.ca


----------



## FSTO

CBH99 said:


> Asking why the governments at the federal and provincial level don't seem interested in formulating a reopening plan is a legitimate question.  (The US states mentioned all have pretty high vaccination rates, hence their numbers plummeting despite full reopenings.)


Saskatchewan has a 3 stage plan and phase 1 is starting soon (if not so already).
A collegue told me that Quebec is planning on mask wearing and restrictions for a couple of years. I really hope that I misread her. Cause that imaginary line between Quebec and the US ain't stopping a damn thing.


----------



## Infanteer

I think Premier Moe is creating a trend that will come irresistible to other jurisdictions.  If anything, our Federal system is governed by "what are the others doing?" and people in Province X will be wondering why they aren't leaning into things like Saskatchewan.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> i wear a mask  and I social distance not out of fear but out of social responsibility and being a good citizen.


I've been going to my RMT once a week for years. She's from Japan and sometimes, not very often, wears a mask for Hay Fever in spring and fall. That's because she was raised in a culture of being considerate of other people.

Sounds like you were too, Remius.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> Again with the fear.  People are just being responsible and don’t want to see anyone hurt.



You are scared and this article pretty much sums up all the majority of feelings from users on the forum. 









						'Unjustified fears': When COVID-19 anxiety stops making sense
					

Polls keep showing that the public believes COVID-19 disease is way deadlier and more pervasive than it really is




					nationalpost.com
				




Makes it seem like a worse summer 2021 than 2020 even after the vaccines. That article is nuts. People really don't give a damn about the proper numbers. Totally stuck on fear island with this crap. It's almost like the media is scared they won't have anything to talk about once this clown-show is over. They'll have to invent something else for the masses to be afraid of. My bucket of give-a-shit is empty.



> we have a few weeks left.



Hahahahaha right. Just a few more weeks to flatten the curve.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I like the Texas approach where they have left people's health to their own individual control.

Admittedly I don't pay much attention to COVID other than wear my mask and follow the rules, as bothersome as that is.  

How is Texas and the other open stats doing ?  Flodeed hospitals ?  Social collapse ?  Honestly don't know.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> You are scared and this article pretty much sums up all the majority of feelings from users on the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Unjustified fears': When COVID-19 anxiety stops making sense
> 
> 
> Polls keep showing that the public believes COVID-19 disease is way deadlier and more pervasive than it really is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes it seem like a worse summer 2021 than 2020 even after the vaccines. That article is nuts. People really don't give a damn about the proper numbers. Totally stuck on fear island with this crap. It's almost like the media is scared they won't have anything to talk about once this clown-show is over. They'll have to invent something else for the masses to be afraid of. My bucket of give-a-shit is empty.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahahahaha right. Just a few more weeks to flatten the curve.


And yet you come here and spout off.  You’ve previously mentioned that you’d willlingly sacrifice old “fossils” so you wouldn’t be inconvienced at the supermarket outside of senior hours.  No, you’re the one who has been fear mongering.  If anyone is going against canadian values and threatening them it’s you.  Stop being a snowflake and man up.  Do the right thing and man up.  Because all I see is someone making a lot of drama and has been whining for year.   

You don’t see it.  And you likely never will,  but YOU are the problem.


----------



## mariomike

Halifax Tar said:


> How is Texas and the other open stats doing ?  Flodeed hospitals ?  Social collapse ?  Honestly don't know.


Death rates from coronavirus (COVID-19) in the United States as of May 17, 2021, by state(per 100,000 people)​








						U.S. COVID death rate by state 2022 | Statista
					

As of December 2022, Mississippi had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 439 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.




					www.statista.com


----------



## QV

Halifax Tar said:


> I like the Texas approach where they have left people's health to their own individual control.
> 
> Admittedly I don't pay much attention to COVID other than wear my mask and follow the rules, as bothersome as that is.
> 
> How is Texas and the other open stats doing ?  Flodeed hospitals ?  Social collapse ?  Honestly don't know.



Well if there was actual social collapse or at least very poor situations in places like Florida, Texas, South Dakota I'm sure the very honest and unbiased media would be letting us all know round the clock.  The media hasn't reported too much on that, which should tell you a little bit about the media and this pandemic.  

Another fairly absent story is the near eradication of influenza, how'd that happen and isn't that a huge win?  After years and years of flu vaccines and no change, then a simple mask and 6' almost eradicated it? I mean, tell me more about that please.  

But nah, everyone should just shut up, do what you're told, and never question anything because the science is settled on everything from COVID to global warming global cooling climate change, and our elected leaders like Trudeau all know and act entirely in our collective best interests without question.  A bastion of ethics and morals, I'm not sure how anyone could doubt what this government puts out.  And remember:

Peaceful protests about lockdowns and suppression of freedom = bad, you filthy racist right wing extremists!
Protests with violence in support of Hamas chanting the perpetuation of hate crimes = good to go!


----------



## Remius

It sounds like you have a lot issues that you are lumping in one big political statement.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> I feel I should be able to drive down the left side of the road with a beer in one hand and a cel-phone in the other.
> 
> It's call living in a civil society.   No right is absolute, even in the US of A, particularly when they collide.  If some folks don't like the fact that we have been restricted, or how, they are free to find a political party that was against all of it and pound lawn signs for them.  I'm sure Randy Hillier, Mad Max and Sloan will appreciate the support.


I am of the same opinion.


----------



## ModlrMike

As someone who provides direct patient care in an ER, let me fill in some gaps:



QV said:


> Another fairly absent story is the near eradication of influenza, how'd that happen and isn't that a huge win?  After years and years of flu vaccines and no change, then a simple mask and 6' almost eradicated it? I mean, tell me more about that please.


There are several reasons why influenza is perceived to be not as bad as previous years. Firstly, the infection control methods are working; masks, handwashing, and distance work. Secondly, the uptake for the flu vaccine, at least in Canada, was greatly increased this year. Thirdly, the R0 value globally for influenza is approximately 1.3, year over year. With Covid, it's currently 5.3. This means that each person infected with flu might subsequently infect 1.3 other persons, where one Covid case might create 5.3 others. It's important to note that the R0 value can change based on a number of conditions, and I would expect that the R0 value for influenza for this year will be less than 1.0. Finally, we're not testing as agressively for influenza as we might have in the past. Partly because we're focused on Covid, and partly because influenza will respond to the same treatments as Covid. Currently the R0 value in Winnipeg is estimated at 2.6.


----------



## PMedMoe

ModlrMike said:


> As someone who provides direct patient care in an ER, let me fill in some gaps:
> 
> 
> There are several reasons why influenza is perceived to be not as bad as previous years. Firstly, the infection control methods are working; masks, handwashing, and distance work. Secondly, the uptake for the flu vaccine, at least in Canada, was greatly increased this year. Thirdly, the R0 value globally for influenza is approximately 1.3, year over year. With Covid, it's currently 5.3. This means that each person infected with flu might subsequently infect 1.3 other persons, where one Covid case might create 5.3 others. It's important to note that the R0 value can change based on a number of conditions, and I would expect that the R0 value for influenza for this year will be less than 1.0. Finally, we're not testing as agressively for influenza as we might have in the past. Partly because we're focused on Covid, and partly because influenza will respond to the same treatments as Covid. Currently the R0 value in Winnipeg is estimated at 2.6.


[sarcasm]But...but...didn't the flu disappear because that's all COVID really is??[/sarcasm]   

Thanks for that excellent explanation.  Too bad some people will persist in believing different.


----------



## Infanteer

QV said:


> Well if there was actual social collapse or at least very poor situations in places like Florida, Texas, South Dakota I'm sure the very honest and unbiased media would be letting us all know round the clock.  The media hasn't reported too much on that, which should tell you a little bit about the media and this pandemic.
> 
> Another fairly absent story is the near eradication of influenza, how'd that happen and isn't that a huge win?  After years and years of flu vaccines and no change, then a simple mask and 6' almost eradicated it? I mean, tell me more about that please.
> 
> But nah, everyone should just shut up, do what you're told, and never question anything because the science is settled on everything from COVID to global warming global cooling climate change, and our elected leaders like Trudeau all know and act entirely in our collective best interests without question.  A bastion of ethics and morals, I'm not sure how anyone could doubt what this government puts out.  And remember:
> 
> Peaceful protests about lockdowns and suppression of freedom = bad, you filthy racist right wing extremists!
> Protests with violence in support of Hamas chanting the perpetuation of hate crimes = good to go!


Let's see.  US state politics - check.  Flu rates - check.  Vaccines - check.  Lockdown measures - check.  Canadian prime minister - check.  Hamas/Israel - check.

Anything else you want to pull in there while you are yelling at the sky?


----------



## QV

But are these discussions interesting?  I suppose we could all just agree and shut up... if that is what you want.


----------



## Infanteer

Yes, going to the range is fun, but it's usually more productive when there is a 5cm grouping as opposed to spraying full auto into the butts.


----------



## Brad Sallows

No question there is a lot of fear out there.  Fear is what prompted people to exercise caution well before official measures were imposed; fear (of consequences of disobedience) is what keeps people in line.  Fear is manifested in the way the goalposts keep moving (originally: flatten the hospitalization curve; now: masks for how long?).  Just because being afraid is perceived by many to be unflattering doesn't mean fear should be dismissed.

The threshold at which people decide prudence becomes overreach varies with local/regional social and political norms.  Generally, the more free a culture believes itself to be, the less it appreciates "Mom" telling it what to do.  For example, Michiganders seem to have a higher tolerance for restrictions and higher willingness to self-restrict than Texans, but Whitmer's rules were too much even for many Michiganders.  In BC, the government mostly managed to stay within the bounds of what people thought reasonable.  Some of the other provinces have not managed that.

Also no question that there is a lot of authoritarian instinct out there.  That is self-evident from the political and social responses by the more fearful toward the less fearful.  But that's a symptom of a deeper contemporary problem with so many people readily willing to jettison liberal principles at almost the first discomfort, setback, hindrance, whatever.


----------



## Infanteer

Brad Sallows said:


> Also no question that there is a lot of authoritarian instinct out there.  That is self-evident from the political and social responses by the more fearful toward the less fearful.  But that's a symptom of a deeper contemporary problem with so many people readily willing to jettison liberal principles at almost the first discomfort, setback, hindrance, whatever.


Yes, absolutely.  I recall reading some interesting material in the political psychology literature that indicated that there are innate traits related to fear/concern that lead to someone's political bias.  If I remember the hypothesis it was that "right" spectrum folks were wary of change, whereas "left" spectrum folks were prone to seeing failure in the status quo.  These internalized instincts colour how people perceive social and political activities and behaviors.  These psychological anchors explain why political outlooks are so embedded into our identities, and hard to change.

So, folks on one hand fear change and will jettison liberal principles to maintain the status quo, while folks on the other hand fear observed problems in the status quo and will jettison liberal principles to ensure change to their envisioned state.  In both cases, regardless of political bent, they have become illiberal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Infanteer said:


> Yes, absolutely.  I recall reading some interesting material in the political psychology literature that indicated that there are innate traits related to fear/concern that lead to someone's political bias.  If I remember the hypothesis it was that "right" spectrum folks were wary of change, whereas "left" spectrum folks were prone to seeing failure in the status quo.  These internalized instincts colour how people perceive social and political activities and behaviors.  These psychological anchors explain why political outlooks are so embedded into our identities, and hard to change.
> 
> So, folks on one hand fear change and will jettison liberal principles to maintain the status quo, while folks on the other hand fear observed problems in the status quo and will jettison liberal principles to ensure change to their envisioned state.  In both cases, regardless of political bent, they have become illiberal.



Plus ca change!

“The old believe everything; the middle-aged suspect everything; the young know everything.”

― Oscar Wilde


----------



## Loachman

By Oscar Wilde's standard of the day, I'm probably "old", but I tend to believe less and less with each passing day, especially regarding *anything* emanating from *any* Canadian federal or provincial government, especially about "climate change/global warming" and the CCP virus and "keeping people safe" and "following the science".


----------



## Brad Sallows

Put me in the "old believe very little" category with respect to the information provided by media.  Since much of what they claimed in the past turned out to be incorrect, I assume that much of what they claim in future will be also be incorrect.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> And yet you come here and spout off.  You’ve previously mentioned that you’d willlingly sacrifice old “fossils” so you wouldn’t be inconvienced at the supermarket outside of senior hours.  No, you’re the one who has been fear mongering.  If anyone is going against canadian values and threatening them it’s you.  Stop being a snowflake and man up.  Do the right thing and man up.  Because all I see is someone making a lot of drama and has been whining for year.
> 
> You don’t see it.  And you likely never will,  but YOU are the problem.



Sounds like you will fit in nicely with the rest of the maritimers. Rest of the country is slowly opening up but easterners are calling the police on each other for having maskless outdoor picnics. It’s pathetic. I’ve ignored any restriction that pertains to being outside for months now. I’m sick of people like you who preach restriction abidance like it is nothing while millions of Canadians have lost paycheques. Its been well established that most of the country loses their homes if 2 weeks pay doesn’t come in in timely fashion.

The irony of these backwards arguments you're making, is that if this virus actually was deadly or worrisome, we wouldn't be having these discussions at all because most of us would be willingly staying home and protecting ourselves. I can’t believe people still believe this shit over 12 months later and are still hiding in their houses. The “do your part” and “we are all in this together” nonsense has lost all meaning.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Sounds like you will fit in nicely with the rest of the maritimers. Rest of the country is slowly opening up but easterners are calling the police on each other for having maskless outdoor picnics. It’s pathetic. I’ve ignored any restriction that pertains to being outside for months now. I’m sick of people like you who preach restriction abidance like it is nothing while millions of Canadians have lost paycheques. Its been well established that most of the country loses their homes if 2 weeks pay doesn’t come in in timely fashion.
> 
> The irony of these backwards arguments you're making, is that if this virus actually was deadly or worrisome, we wouldn't be having these discussions at all because most of us would be willingly staying home and protecting ourselves. I can’t believe people still believe this shit over 12 months later and are still hiding in their houses. The “do your part” and “we are all in this together” nonsense has lost all meaning.



I will take that comment about fitting in nicely with maritimers as a compliment.


----------



## CBH99

Albertans line up at U.S. border for COVID-19 vaccinations: ‘It feels great’  | Globalnews.ca
					

A Toronto man, a car full of 18-year-olds and Calgary residents getting their second shot are among those the Blackfeet Tribe says have shown up at the border vaccination clinic.




					globalnews.ca
				





incredibly helpful for folks in southern Alberta.  This gesture just boosted our vaccination numbers by THOUSANDS - absolute game changer.  

Utterly embarrassing that people had to drive to the US border to get vaccinated.  Unreal.  I’m extremely thankful, yet also extremely embarrassed and frustrated.  

We aren’t short on vaccines here.  Plenty of Pfizer & Moderna.  No idea why people are told they have to wait 3-4 weeks for an appt.   Just unreal.  

(I have a tenant living in a rental I own, who is 66yo.  He called to make an appt and was told it was a 4 week wait.  Walked into Shoppers the next day and asked the pharmacy in person if he could get his 1st dose, and they gave it to him.). 😡🤯🤯😡😭😭


----------



## blacktriangle

Quirky said:


> The “do your part” and “we are all in this together” nonsense has lost all meaning.


I know of some small business owners that wanted to do their part when this all started, so they closed entirely. Hoping it would be a few weeks to a few months. And yet here we are...they've finally had enough and are opening up to whatever extent they are permitted. These are left-leaning people that tried to be "socially responsible" and got burned by incompetence at all levels of government.


----------



## CBH99

Remius said:


> I will take that comment about fitting in nicely with maritimers as a compliment.


Quirky, Remius.  Guys.  Just because you have different views on the current restrictions, doesn’t mean either of you are 100% right or 100% wrong.  

When it comes to something as “society altering” and world changing as this — there is bound to be a variety of opinions.  These opinions are going to formed based on media accuracy or inaccuracy, one’s trust of the media, one’s personal experience with the virus, one’s faith in government, how one interprets the collapse of ‘overall’ freedom (overkill?  Dragging on too long?) etc etc

Chances are if discussing in person you’d probably have things you agree on.  

Can’t you guys just hug it out or shake hands??  (Once you’re allowed to, that is**)


----------



## Remius

Sorry but I have an issue with someone who advocated for letting seniors (fossils as he called them) and people at risk die so his freedoms and shopping habits were not infringed upon.   His posting history has led to my disdain for any of his positions.  For a guy who distrusts the media he sure as heck ran with one story about a by law infraction. And turned it into some version of 1984.  And basically insulted an entire part of this country lol. 

I’m actually very much in tune with your position though.  It’s actually reasoned and I have no issues with it.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Can’t you guys just hug it out or shake hands??  (Once you’re allowed to, that is**)


I think this would be appropriate. ( Once you're allowed to, that is. )


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> I have a tenant living in a rental I own, who is 66yo.  He called to make an appt and was told it was a 4 week wait.


He should come to Ontario. I got mine on 23 March. Same age as him. Made an appt. No line up. No waiting. M.D. gave behind a closed door in a private room.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> He should come to Ontario. I got mine on 23 March. Same age as him. Made an appt. No line up. No waiting. M.D. gave behind a closed door in a private room.



Same here. Wife (same age) got hers in March; I (slightly older) in early April with a two week wait primarily because I was slow off the mark and the earlier dates filled up.  Our +30 daughter booked this week and gets it next week.


----------



## Remius

lenaitch said:


> Same here. Wife (same age) got hers in March; I (slightly older) in early April with a two week wait primarily because I was slow off the mark and the earlier dates filled up.  Our +30 daughter booked this week and gets it next week.


I got mine last month due to being in a hot zone.  Was pretty quick.  1 week from registration to shot in the arm and my second date booked.  As much as Ontario has been criticized they have started to get it together.


----------



## ModlrMike

Circling back to my last post on the subject, here's a better explanation:

Herd Immunity -- Facts and Numbers

Fair warning, she's not the most engaging speaker.


----------



## GR66

We're in a hot zone as well.  It's now open to all 18+ and just checked the website and there are appointments available for this Saturday.  The email advertising the clinic also noted that it will be opening up to 12+ soon.


----------



## Weinie

Interesting article which perhaps calls into question the efficacy of the Sinopharm vaccine.

The strange case of Seychelles: a new COVID-19 wave in the world’s most vaccinated country


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> Sorry but I have an issue with someone who advocated for letting seniors (fossils as he called them) and people at risk die so his freedoms and shopping habits were not infringed upon.   His posting history has led to my disdain for any of his positions.  For a guy who distrusts the media he sure as heck ran with one story about a by law infraction. And turned it into some version of 1984.  And basically insulted an entire part of this country lol.
> 
> I’m actually very much in tune with your position though.  It’s actually reasoned and I have no issues with it.


How many more times are we going to hear the reasoning for your disdain? I don't  really care one way or the other, who is right or wrong. They are just personal opinions anyway. I'm  just tired of the pissing contest everytime I come here. I'm sure you've made your point. You could go to PM and try work it out, instead of ripping off the scab everytime you disagree with the guy. How about giving us a rest?


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> How many more times are we going to hear the reasoning for your disdain? I don't  really care one way or the other, who is right or wrong. They are just personal opinions anyway. I'm  just tired of the pissing contest everytime I come here. I'm sure you've made your point. You could go to PM and try work it out, instead of ripping off the scab everytime you disagree with the guy. How about giving us a rest?


Don’t dictate to me who I choose to respond to. If he posts I can respond.  Same with you. The conversation was moving on but you picked the scab lol.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> He should come to Ontario. I got mine on 23 March. Same age as him. Made an appt. No line up. No waiting. M.D. gave behind a closed door in a private room.


It’s so bloody irritating.  I know probably 10+ people who called and were told it is about a 4 week wait.

Every single one of those people has since walked into a pharmacy, asked, and received.  

Now we have thousands of people lining up at the US border to get shots, when they probably could have received them at their local pharmacy...but Alberta Health is telling them the wait is weeks on end.  🤦🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️

Either way, the end result is good.  Thousands more people were vaccinated, in addition to whoever got the shots locally.  Huge boost 🙏🏻🙏🏻


----------



## NavyShooter

My wife and I are booked in for our Moderna vaccinations tomorrow at Costco.  We're just confused at how one day there's 15K vaccinations, and the next it seems like there's only 6K....it seems like the roll out is going in fits and starts, or should that be farts?


----------



## CBH99

NavyShooter said:


> My wife and I are booked in for our Moderna vaccinations tomorrow at Costco.  We're just confused at how one day there's 15K vaccinations, and the next it seems like there's only 6K....it seems like the roll out is going in fits and starts, or should that be farts?


Frustrating.  I know.

At least if the 15K is down to 6K, and they told you fairly accurate ballpark numbers - that’s a lot of people getting the jab 👍🏻


----------



## medic5

In Toronto I've seen 5 or 6 of my friends (Grade 10, so 15/16) already get the shot.

I don't understand how they are distributing the vaccines.


----------



## GR66

medic5 said:


> In Toronto I've seen 5 or 6 of my friends (Grade 10, so 15/16) already get the shot.
> 
> I don't understand how they are distributing the vaccines.


In hot spots they are opening up vaccinations to younger age groups to stop further spread.


----------



## Remius

GR66 said:


> In hot spots they are opening up vaccinations to younger age groups to stop further spread.


Yeah they did here for specific area codes.  My son got his last week.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Some people just want to see the world burn:



> Alberta Health Services says it is monitoring COVID-19 vaccination no-shows following claims on social media that some people are booking several times to try to stop others from getting a shot.











						Alberta law enforcement asked to investigate claims of intentionally wasted vaccine appointments
					

Alberta Health Services says it's aware of social media posts claiming false vaccine bookings were made with the intent of clogging up the system -- and the posts have been brought to the attention of law enforcement.



					calgary.ctvnews.ca
				












						Alberta watching no-show vaccine appointments after social media claims of false bookings  | Globalnews.ca
					

Alberta Health Services says in a tweet that it shared the information with police and is making sure participating pharmacies are aware of the claims.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

OceanBonfire said:


> Some people just want to see the world burn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta law enforcement asked to investigate claims of intentionally wasted vaccine appointments
> 
> 
> Alberta Health Services says it's aware of social media posts claiming false vaccine bookings were made with the intent of clogging up the system -- and the posts have been brought to the attention of law enforcement.
> 
> 
> 
> calgary.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta watching no-show vaccine appointments after social media claims of false bookings  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Alberta Health Services says in a tweet that it shared the information with police and is making sure participating pharmacies are aware of the claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


----------



## medic5

I got my vaccine yesterday at a pop-up clinic, no appointment. There were two lines, one for hotspot and one for non-hotspot. The latter probably had 2000 people lined up, I would guess less than a quarter got it. Pretty much everyone in the hotspot line got it though. Overall it was really well organized, I was pleasantly surprised.

Edit: I should probably add that it was 12-18 year olds, we can't book appointments for another two weeks which is why there were so many people.


----------



## sarahsmom

mariomike said:


> He should come to Ontario. I got mine on 23 March. Same age as him. Made an appt. No line up. No waiting. M.D. gave behind a closed door in a private room.


My husband got told no appts available in our town, and when he volunteered to travel to where my parents live (still same province) they said no, your OHIP card says this address. you cannot go to another town to get your vaccine. Super frustrating.


----------



## CBH99

Oh wow.  That sucks!

At this stage in the game, with the numbers of vaccines coming in - if someone walks in or calls, just give them the bloody thing.  🤦🏼‍♂️


----------



## Remius

sarahsmom said:


> My husband got told no appts available in our town, and when he volunteered to travel to where my parents live (still same province) they said no, your OHIP card says this address. you cannot go to another town to get your vaccine. Super frustrating.


Weird.  I live in a “hot” zone.  They opened it for 18 year olds (little known fact is that it was opened for people born in 2003 and not just 18+ so my 17 year old was able to get his shot) a couple of weeks ago and he registered with my address but his health card and temporary drivers license use his mom’s address which is not in a hot zone.  But he lives with me half the time.   It took a few minutes to deal with how to enter him in system but they took him with no issues.   This was at a provincial mass vaccination clinic.


----------



## PMedMoe

sarahsmom said:


> My husband got told no appts available in our town, and when he volunteered to travel to where my parents live (still same province) they said no, your OHIP card says this address. you cannot go to another town to get your vaccine. Super frustrating.


That is weird. When they did the early rollout in the KFL&A area, people were coming from outside the area and getting vaccinated.


----------



## CBH99

And our super ghetto Alberta health card goes in for the win again!  

Just a flimsy piece of paper.  No photo.  No address.  And they will type whatever name you ask them to on it.  (Not kidding)


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> And our super ghetto Alberta health card goes in for the win again!
> 
> Just a flimsy piece of paper.  No photo.  No address.  And they will type whatever name you ask them to on it.  (Not kidding)


Jeepers. Even my library card is plastic. With a barcode, and my signature.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Jeepers. Even my library card is plastic. With a barcode, and my signature.


The only reason my Alberta Health card is in good shape is because I have it laminated.  I think.  No barcode.  No signature.  No photo.  No address.  No other information to confirm the identity.  Nadda.

Low quality paper, that simply has my first/middle/last name, DOB, and health care number.  


This one is my replacement, my old one was the exact same.  When I called to order it, a very sweet sounding older lady (she sounded like someone's grandma on the phone, she must've been in her senior years) simply asked me "And what name would you like to use for the card?  Can you spell it for me?"

That was it


----------



## brihard

Ontario was able to administer 180k+ yesterday, and it sounds like most of the issues getting shots have been resolved. The big remaining hangover seemed to be those who had first dose of AZ, but the province has announced it will administer second doses.



OceanBonfire said:


> Some people just want to see the world burn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta law enforcement asked to investigate claims of intentionally wasted vaccine appointments
> 
> 
> Alberta Health Services says it's aware of social media posts claiming false vaccine bookings were made with the intent of clogging up the system -- and the posts have been brought to the attention of law enforcement.
> 
> 
> 
> calgary.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta watching no-show vaccine appointments after social media claims of false bookings  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Alberta Health Services says in a tweet that it shared the information with police and is making sure participating pharmacies are aware of the claims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca



What selfish sacks of crap. This would be worth some charges if suspects can be identified. And publicize the hell out of it. These people are cancer.


----------



## CBH99

Between them posting their idiocy on social media, hopefully booking the appt online (easy enough to grab an IP address and go from there), possibly confirming the appt with their health care #, etc.  I'm thinking they'll be tracked down easily enough.  

And yes.  Agreed.  Charge them, and make them famous.


I'm all for people choosing what makes the most sense for them - whether we understand it or agree with it, or not.  I have a feeling that a lot of the people who are concerned about the vaccines will come around sooner vs later, especially if proof of vaccination is required for employment, enrollment in school, travel, enrolling in a gym membership or sports, etc.  (I hope they do anyway.  Seems like most are.)

But booking appointments just for the sake of preventing someone else from getting vaccinated?  Selfish sack of crap really is a good descriptor.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:


> The only reason my Alberta Health card is in good shape is because I have it laminated.  I think.  No barcode.  No signature.  No photo.  No address.  No other information to confirm the identity.  Nadda.
> 
> Low quality paper, that simply has my first/middle/last name, DOB, and health care number.
> 
> 
> This one is my replacement, my old one was the exact same.  When I called to order it, a very sweet sounding older lady (she sounded like someone's grandma on the phone, she must've been in her senior years) simply asked me "And what name would you like to use for the card?  Can you spell it for me?"
> 
> That was it



And what more do you need?  Ok, a barcode might be a nod to technology, but realistically not yet necessary.  The sweet old grandma may have asked your preference of name but unless the health number, date of birth and name match when submitted to Alberta Health for payment, they ain't sending money to the doctor who provided the service.  It then becomes the doctor's problem to track down the "uninsured" for payment (most doctors in Canada are technically self-employed small businessmen).  If one tried to book a vaccination appointment on the government system using a fictitious health number and DOB, it wouldn't be accepted (I tried, _as an experiment_, back before my age group became eligible).

Back in the day when we were still paying monthly premiums for Alberta health insurance, it was more common (but still rare) to get a billing rejection, but that was more because individuals hadn't paid their premiums.  Nowadays, with no premiums and especially with electronic medical records that can verify health numbers, it's even less of a problem.


----------



## CBH99

Blackadder1916 said:


> If one tried to book a vaccination appointment on the government system using a fictitious health number and DOB, it wouldn't be accepted (I tried, _as an experiment_, back before my age group became eligible).




When I ordered it, it did catch me slightly offguard, as I truly could have given any name.  A guy I work with has 2 middle names and 2 last names... the middle name and last name used on his Alberta health card are NOT the ones he has on his drivers license, passport, etc.

I realized later, when I ages a few years, they must bill just based on the health # and DOB as a verifier.


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:


> Between them posting their idiocy on social media, hopefully booking the appt online (easy enough to grab an IP address and go from there), possibly confirming the appt with their health care #, etc.  I'm thinking they'll be tracked down easily enough.
> 
> And yes.  Agreed.  Charge them, and make them famous.
> 
> 
> I'm all for people choosing what makes the most sense for them - whether we understand it or agree with it, or not.  I have a feeling that a lot of the people who are concerned about the vaccines will come around sooner vs later, especially if proof of vaccination is required for employment, enrollment in school, travel, enrolling in a gym membership or sports, etc.  (I hope they do anyway.  Seems like most are.)
> 
> But booking appointments just for the sake of preventing someone else from getting vaccinated?  Selfish sack of crap really is a good descriptor.


There’s a bit of work in tracking an IP back to a customer, and then the hardest bit is putting the individual behind the keyboard. But it’s certainly not impossible, and it can be ‘fun’ investigative work.


----------



## CBH99

Very much agreed.  I've been privy to 3 separate files where we worked backwards essentially, and put a puzzle together.  It actually was fun, as it was challenging and felt like a 'mystery challenge game' when working on those files.

I don't have Twitter or any social media.  I've noticed, however, that the folks who are dumb enough to post these kinds of things on social media are also dumb enough to leave some breadcrumbs for people to follow.  


I actually do hope he gets Covid, but only after enough people are vaccinated it won't affect anybody but himself.  I'm not wishing death on him or anything, it would just be sweet karma if he ended up getting Covid at a time when he wouldn't pose much of a risk to anybody else.  Let it kick his butt for a few weeks or months, just to HOPEFULLY smarten him up & realize his boo-boo 😐  (I promise I'm a good person...)


----------



## Remius

Meanwhile, it seems like the vaccine lottery in Ohio is working and getting people to get their shots.  Looks like other states may do the same.









						Ohio’s 53% vaccination surge tied to $1M lottery; NY and MD announce lotteries
					

Biden admin "enthusiastic" about cash-for-vax promotions, which appear effective.




					arstechnica.com


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Meanwhile, it seems like the vaccine lottery in Ohio is working and getting people to get their shots.  Looks like other states may do the same.


Too bad they have to bribe people. There seems to be some "vaccine hesitancy".


----------



## Remius

Well whatever gets them out.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Meanwhile, it seems like the vaccine lottery in Ohio is working and getting people to get their shots.





> Well whatever gets them out.



Not everyone is on board with it.








						GOP State Rep. Powell Drafts Bill to Stop Ohio's COVID Vaccination Lottery
					

Beginning May 26, the state is set to award $1 million each week to adult Ohio residents who have received at least one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine.




					www.newsweek.com
				




Looks like Rhode Island, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey and Vermont have vaccinated at least 70% of their adult population. 








						An 8th US state just reached a critical Covid-19 vaccination milestone | CNN
					

As US officials push for more vaccinations amid slowing demand across the country, another state has now crossed an important milestone.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## OceanBonfire

The highlights:



> That stands in contrast to an apparent rash of vaccine hesitancy in the United States military, where some reports have suggested as many as one-third of American troops have declined to get a shot.
> 
> Defence Department spokesman Daniel Le Bouthillier says the majority of unvaccinated Canadian service members haven't declined to get a jab, they just haven't had an opportunity to bare their arms.
> 
> ...
> 
> While there is no one reason why American troops are more reluctant to get a shot than their Canadian counterparts, Carleton University professor Steve Saideman believes the level of vaccine politicization in the U.S. is a major factor.











						Canadian troops lining up in droves to be vaccinated with 85 per cent receiving one dose
					

Canadian military personnel have come forward in droves to be vaccinated for COVID-19, with the Department of National Defence reporting more than 85 per cent of all troops having received at least one dose.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						85% of Canadian troops have received at least 1 COVID-19 vaccine dose - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Military personnel are being vaccinated faster than the rest of Canadians, with only half of the general population having received at least one dose.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

Retired nurses sit on sidelines as firefighters give COVID-19 vaccines in Fraser Health​








						Retired nurses sit on sidelines as firefighters give COVID-19 vaccines in Fraser Health  | Globalnews.ca
					

As the battle against COVID-19 continues in the Fraser health region, there’s another fight picking up steam inside vaccination centres.




					globalnews.ca
				





Easy.


----------



## ModlrMike

So instead of using folks who spend the majority of their time sitting around waiting for something to happen, we should hire other people to be paid out of the public purse?


----------



## Jarnhamar

ModlrMike said:


> So instead of *using folks who spend the majority of their time sitting around waiting for something to happen,* we should hire other people to be paid out of the public purse?


That's exactly why I think the infantry should have got this task


----------



## mariomike

> So instead of using folks who spend the majority of their time sitting around waiting for something to happen, we should hire other people to be paid out of the public purse?





> The B.C. Professional Firefighters Association confirmed to Global News that its members had been invited by the health authority to help, and are being paid overtime.
> That compensation could work out to up to three times a nurse’s wage.


Nice bit of OT. Especially on a Stat Holiday. Even sweeter when it's clean, sit down, inside work, no heavy lifting with a thermostat on the wall.


----------



## Kilted

Jarnhamar said:


> That's exactly why I think the infantry should have got this task


When that goes wrong it might overshadow the sexual misconduct issues.


----------



## mariomike

> When that goes wrong it might overshadow the sexual misconduct issues.



What do you think could go wrong?


kratz said:


> At one of our meetings here, the topic of vaccinations came up and the doctors present agreed that apes could be trained within 20 minutes to administer these shots.


----------



## MilEME09

Canadian troops lining up in droves to be vaccinated, with 85% receiving one dose
					

OTTAWA — Canadian military personnel have come forward in droves to be vaccinated for COVID-19, with the Department of National Defence reporting more than 85…




					calgaryherald.com
				





Now correct me if I am wrong but pretty sure this number is regular force only has I believe the forces vaccine plan doesn't include reservists. Still it's great that the forces is well on its way to full vaccination status.


----------



## ModlrMike

Yes, Class A reservists are the responsibility of their respective provinces.


----------



## daftandbarmy

ModlrMike said:


> Yes, Class A reservists are the responsibility of their respective provinces.



Which, ironically, is kind of a good indication of how much Reservists are considered to be an integral part of the CAF.


----------



## CBH99

MilEME09 said:


> Canadian troops lining up in droves to be vaccinated, with 85% receiving one dose
> 
> 
> OTTAWA — Canadian military personnel have come forward in droves to be vaccinated for COVID-19, with the Department of National Defence reporting more than 85…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calgaryherald.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now correct me if I am wrong but pretty sure this number is regular force only has I believe the forces vaccine plan doesn't include reservists. Still it's great that the forces is well on its way to full vaccination status.


The only reason to be pumped to go on a bloody Maple Resolve...of all things 🤦🏼‍♂️😬🤦🏼‍♂️

At least the reservists who attended could have possibly sped up their vaccinations!  Agreed.  Good to see CAF vaccinated numbers so high


----------



## PMedMoe

ModlrMike said:


> Yes, Class A reservists are the responsibility of their respective provinces.





daftandbarmy said:


> Which, ironically, is kind of a good indication of how much Reservists are considered to be an integral part of the CAF.


They don't get medical coverage on Class A.  Why would this be any different?

I could understand vaccinating them if they were going on a tasking.  
Who knows? Maybe the CAF will have excess vaccines and start offering them to reservists.


----------



## PuckChaser

They will have extras, the CAF got 150,000 doses. The problem is the logistics of getting vaccines to Cl A reservists who are not close to a CDU. They'd likely get them faster through the civilian system.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in the land of the upcoming Olympics:

Doctors in Japan express Olympic concerns as COVID-19 cases overwhelm Osaka​*'This may be a trigger for another disaster in the summer,' hospital official says*



			https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/tokyo-olympics-osaka-hospitals-buckling-1.6038450


----------



## Brad Sallows

The CAF might want to re-think how it treats reservist vaccinations.  This pandemic has been a useful learning exercise for a lot of things, having a fatality rate not much greater than flu.  Does the Res F need to be employable (ie. a reserve) in the event of a pandemic involving something with even a moderately higher fatality rate, or not?


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> They don't get medical coverage on Class A.  Why would this be any different?
> 
> I could understand vaccinating them if they were going on a tasking.
> *Who knows? Maybe the CAF will have excess vaccines and start offering them to reservists.*



Because the Reserves are used to getting hand-me-downs of various kinds from the Regs, right?  

But seriously, either we're 'One Force' or we're a balkanized collection of odds and sods looking after #1.

And nothing reveals the truth more than a crisis of global proportions during one of the biggest operations in the history of the CAF - OP LASER.


----------



## PMedMoe

daftandbarmy said:


> Because the Reserves are used to getting hand-me-downs of various kinds from the Regs, right?
> 
> But seriously, either we're 'One Force' or we're a balkanized collection of odds and sods looking after #1.
> 
> And nothing reveals the truth more than a crisis of global proportions during one of the biggest operations in the history of the CAF - OP LASER.


Hey, you're preaching to the choir. I was a reservist at one point.

But when even the three reserve systems (Army, Navy and Air Force) are different, how does one expect "One Force"?


----------



## MilEME09

daftandbarmy said:


> Because the Reserves are used to getting hand-me-downs of various kinds from the Regs, right?
> 
> But seriously, either we're 'One Force' or we're a balkanized collection of odds and sods looking after #1.
> 
> And nothing reveals the truth more than a crisis of global proportions during one of the biggest operations in the history of the CAF - OP LASER.


I agree, having been on contract last summer, the biggest excuse for why an organization couldn't help us was covid. Then magically September first all of a sudden the reg force starting asking for a ton of help. While a lot of lessons learned happened leading into the fall the fact all the organization that wouldn't help us turned around and asked for reserve augmentation rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

Fast forward this summer and the planned reserve battle school didn't happen due to lack of instructors, many of us had been triple tasked in the fall, burnt out and still expected to give more. Collectively we the leadership said no we need rest.


----------



## mariomike

Brad Sallows said:


> This pandemic has been a useful learning exercise for a lot of things, having a fatality rate not much greater than flu.


Do you have a source for that?









						COVID Far More Lethal Than Flu, Data Shows
					

The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## MilEME09

mariomike said:


> Do you have a source for that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Far More Lethal Than Flu, Data Shows
> 
> 
> The death rate among COVID-19 patients was 18.5%, while it was 5.3% for those with the flu. Those with COVID were nearly five times more likely to die than flu patients, according to the study published online Dec. 15 in the BMJ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


To add to this 





__





						FluWatch annual report: 2018-19 influenza season - Canada.ca
					

FluWatch Influenza surveillance annual report for 2019, published by the Public Health Agency of Canada.




					www.canada.ca
				




2019 flu season had less than 300 deaths


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Do you have a source for that?



Look at the absolute numbers*, not the relative ones.  It didn't take a virus much more lethal than flu to throw everyone into panic.  Quite the sudden cliff in the attitude graph from "we can live with this" to "shut everything down and stay home".

*Eg. compare to the really serious viruses, like the hemorrhagic fevers, with rates running 50 to 90%.


----------



## PMedMoe

Brad Sallows said:


> Look at the absolute numbers*, not the relative ones.  It didn't take a virus much more lethal than flu to throw everyone into panic.  Quite the sudden cliff in the attitude graph from "we can live with this" to "shut everything down and stay home".


I think the big difference with COVID vs. Influenza was not just how lethal it is, but also how contagious it is.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Brad Sallows said:


> Look at the absolute numbers*, not the relative ones.  It didn't take a virus much more lethal than flu to throw everyone into panic.  Quite the sudden cliff in the attitude graph from "we can live with this" to "shut everything down and stay home".
> 
> *Eg. compare to the really serious viruses, like the hemorrhagic fevers, with rates running 50 to 90%.


I am not an epidemiologist, but influenza has a Case Fatality Rate around 0.1% while COVID is estimated to be around 2%. Its a huge difference in absolute deaths when you look at how many people can be infected with either. COVID also has a longer incubation than influenza and it appears that people can be transmissible for longer periods of time than influenza.  COVID is assessed to be more infectious than influenza as well. 

Something like Ebola has a terrifying CFR around 50%, but the means of transmission are very different (body fluids, not airborne). While the 2014 outbreak in West Africa was very serious, it does not spread like COVID and other respiratory diseases. If you are worried about Ebola, though, many of the methods that we have used to fight COVID would also apply to disease with a higher CFR/IFR.


----------



## McG

Brad Sallows said:


> This pandemic has been a useful learning exercise for a lot of things, having a fatality rate not much greater than flu.


Over 25,000 dead Canadians and you are still pushing this bull shit narrative?

You are the problem.


----------



## ModlrMike

The estimated case fatality rate (CFR) for Influenza is 0.1%, the estimated CFR for COVID is 1.6%. The number of fatalities from influenza for 2019 was 3300 in Canada. Over the first year of the pandemic, approximately 20000 deaths occurred due to COVID. I'd say the fatality rates are markedly different. I've seen people go from triage to ICU in an hour with COVID, I've never seen this with influenza.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

McG said:


> Over 25,000 dead Canadians and you are still pushing this bull shit narrative?
> 
> You are the problem.


Did they die OF covid or did they die WITH covid? There is a difference.


----------



## ModlrMike

daftandbarmy said:


> Because the Reserves are used to getting hand-me-downs of various kinds from the Regs, right?
> 
> But seriously, either we're 'One Force' or we're a balkanized collection of odds and sods looking after #1.
> 
> And nothing reveals the truth more than a crisis of global proportions during one of the biggest operations in the history of the CAF - OP LASER.


I think it has more to do with jurisdictional issues and the Canada Health Act than anything else. The CF may be prevented from providing care unless the member is on duty exceeding 180 days.


----------



## MilEME09

ModlrMike said:


> I think it has more to do with jurisdictional issues and the Canada Health Act than anything else. The CF may be prevented from providing care unless the member is on duty exceeding 180 days.


Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:


> Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service


The simplest solution is to just make a deal with the provinces to make them priority at mass vaccination clinics like they did with some first responders.  Show up with military id and get the shot.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Show up with military id and get the shot.


Protect those who protect us.


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:


> The simplest solution is to just make a deal with the provinces to make them priority at mass vaccination clinics like they did with some first responders.  Show up with military id and get the shot.


Given Alberta has 3 hours paid leave to get vaccinated that can work


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Fishbone Jones said:


> Did they die OF covid or did they die WITH covid? There is a difference.


While there were certainly co-morbidities with many fatal cases, COVID has been identified by competent medical authorities as the cause of death for 25,000 Canadians.


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> Hey, you're preaching to the choir. I was a reservist at one point.
> 
> But when even the three reserve systems (Army, Navy and Air Force) are different, how does one expect "One Force"?



All it takes is the right kind of leadership, of course.


----------



## daftandbarmy

MilEME09 said:


> Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service



But if there's a mandatory online course to be completed so that someone in Ottawa can cover their ample asses....

It's the Army. We're supposed to able to get 'logistics' done fast and right. 

We have a vast, far reaching and expensive chain of command (umpteen staff in a plethora of CBG HQs/ Div HQs etc) that are paid to do just that. If it's 'too difficult', then we either need to fire a bunch of people or reorganize in some way to make relatively simple things like giving Rfn Bloggins a shot easier.

There's no excuse except lethargy and lack of accountability, of course.


----------



## mariomike

TangoTwoBravo said:


> While there were certainly co-morbidities with many fatal cases, COVID has been identified by competent medical authorities as the cause of death for 25,000 Canadians.


According to the National Post, 


> Canada and most other countries have seen significant rates of 'excess deaths' during the pandemic — many more people dying than the average for previous years.



National Post
9 April, 2021








						How 'excess deaths' show COVID's real impact, and point to better ways of combating pandemics
					

Canada and most other countries have seen significant rates of 'excess deaths' during the pandemic — many more people dying than the average for previous years




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Over 25,000 dead Canadians and you are still pushing this bull shit narrative?





> The estimated case fatality rate (CFR) for Influenza is 0.1%, the estimated CFR for COVID is 1.6%.



CFR is measured as a percentage, so from 0 to 100.  On that scale, 1.6 is not much greater than 0.1.  We know of viruses with CFRs estimated to exceed 50%.  So "a fatality rate not much greater than flu", objectively, stands, irrespective of whose panties get twisted.

We have experienced a contemporary true global pandemic.  We have had a chance to measure and observe all sorts of things, and learn from it.  All of this without half or more of the world population burning in shallow cremation pits.

Add: So, we got lucky.  And regardless how the blame hunt turns out, we can revisit and rethink which research we should be doing, and which we should not.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> CFR is measured as a percentage, so from 0 to 100.  On that scale, 1.6 is not much greater than 0.1.  We know of viruses with CFRs estimated to exceed 50%.  So "a fatality rate not much greater than flu", objectively, stands, irrespective of whose panties get twisted.
> 
> We have experienced a contemporary true global pandemic.  We have had a chance to measure and observe all sorts of things, and learn from it.  All of this without half or more of the world population burning in shallow cremation pits.
> 
> Add: So, we got lucky.  And regardless how the blame hunt turns out, we can revisit and rethink which research we should be doing, and which we should not.



You're talking like it's over.

I'm glad you're so confident.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> You're talking like it's over.
> 
> I'm glad you're so confident.


Yeah, I know "_Hollywood_ can _fuck_ off. "

But, I couldn't help thinking of it on this "May 2-4" weekend.


----------



## ModlrMike

Clearly, you don't understand the math. CFR 0.1 = 1/1000 where CFR 1.6 = 16/1000. Somewhat more than "not much greater".


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Brad Sallows said:


> CFR is measured as a percentage, so from 0 to 100.  On that scale, 1.6 is not much greater than 0.1.  We know of viruses with CFRs estimated to exceed 50%.  So "a fatality rate not much greater than flu", objectively, stands, irrespective of whose panties get twisted.
> 
> We have experienced a contemporary true global pandemic.  We have had a chance to measure and observe all sorts of things, and learn from it.  All of this without half or more of the world population burning in shallow cremation pits.
> 
> Add: So, we got lucky.  And regardless how the blame hunt turns out, we can revisit and rethink which research we should be doing, and which we should not.


You don't think that 1.6% is much greater than 0.1% when talking about Case Fatality Rates were you have millions of cases?


----------



## Ostrozac

ModlrMike said:


> I think it has more to do with jurisdictional issues and the Canada Health Act than anything else. The CF may be prevented from providing care unless the member is on duty exceeding 180 days.


The Canada Health Act uses the term “member of the Canadian Forces“ and does not specify regular/reserve, or length of contract. The CAF chooses not to provide health care to members of the Primary Reserve and Supplementary Reserve, who are, of course, “members of the Canadian Forces” but it is a choice and is not enshrined in law — if the CAF wanted to provide health care to all reservists, or to those on 90 day contracts, it wouldn’t require legislative action.


----------



## MilEME09

Ostrozac said:


> The Canada Health Act uses the term “member of the Canadian Forces“ and does not specify regular/reserve, or length of contract. The CAF chooses not to provide health care to members of the Primary Reserve and Supplementary Reserve, who are, of course, “members of the Canadian Forces” but it is a choice and is not enshrined in law — if the CAF wanted to provide health care to all reservists, or to those on 90 day contracts, it wouldn’t require legislative action.


There is a dental plan for class A types, why that can't be extended to basic medical coverage is beyond me, other then cost.


----------



## mariomike

MilEME09 said:


> There is a dental plan for class A types, why that can't be extended to basic medical coverage is beyond me, other then cost.


Do you mean "basic medical coverage " or Extended Health Benefits?


----------



## Kilted

PuckChaser said:


> They will have extras, the CAF got 150,000 doses. The problem is the logistics of getting vaccines to Cl A reservists who are not close to a CDU. They'd likely get them faster through the civilian system.


I'm interested to see if the vaccine becomes "mandatory."  Not in the sense that you will be charged if you don't get it, but you cannot go on tour, cannot go on course, etc without.  On the Reserve side of things, there could also be the possibility: "you don't have to get it, but you can't come n the building if you don't.:


----------



## daftandbarmy

MilEME09 said:


> There is a dental plan for class A types, why that can't be extended to basic medical coverage is beyond me, other then cost.



For reasons similar to the CAF not issuing NVGs, or making courses available, to reserve units that they have Op Tasked with filling a Recc Pl tasking I would guess: Hanlon's Razor


----------



## kratz

MilEME09 said:


> Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service



I'm aware of a voluntary vaccination clinic at a PRes unit for all pers (class A, class B, and RSS), in 2009 during H1N1 (AKA Swine flu).

With planning, it's possible.


----------



## mariomike

> Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service



Ask your local fire department.








						Retired nurses sit on sidelines as firefighters give COVID-19 vaccines in Fraser Health  | Globalnews.ca
					

As the battle against COVID-19 continues in the Fraser health region, there’s another fight picking up steam inside vaccination centres.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> Organizing clinics for class A would be difficult as well given the nature of class A service


Uh, not really. Target the existing parade nights. Tell the troops they’ll get paid a full day instead of a half day. That gets the bodies there.

Alternativey, pick any Saturday. A day’s pay to anyone who shows up between 0900-1500 and gets their vaccine.

Obviously these are predicated on having the doses and having people to give the needles, but if it can be done for the regs it can be done for PRes.

Local health units can also be leveraged; my employer got me vaccinated for operational capacity purposes. We were simply given a timing and told we’d be on the list. 

Tons of ways to skin this cat.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You're talking like it's over.



It's not over, but it's as under control as it is going to be until it ends or a much worse variant spawns or a completely different virus suddenly emerges.



> Clearly, you don't understand the math. CFR 0.1 = 1/1000 where CFR 1.6 = 16/1000. Somewhat more than "not much greater".



Did you miss the part about the scale from 0 to 100?  An order of magnitude multiplication of a small number is still a small number.

Some seem to be wringing hands over how bad they think things were/are; I am considering how much worse it could be and how useful it is to take baby steps before you have to run.  Get off the high horses; this was only a learning opportunity compared to a really bad one.


----------



## QV

McG said:


> Over 25,000 dead Canadians and you are still pushing this bull shit narrative?
> 
> You are the problem.


So a little less than the annual deaths attributed to medical errors in Canada.  Your outrage is misdirected. 









						Thousands die from medical errors yearly, notes advocacy group
					

In Canada, medical errors account for 28,000 deaths yearly, according to the Canadian Patient Safety Institute which campaigns to reduce that number. Errors are said to be the third leading cause of death in Canada after cancer and heart disease, and every minute and 18 seconds someone is injured fr




					www.rcinet.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> So a little less than the annual deaths attributed to medical errors in Canada.  Your outrage is misdirected.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands die from medical errors yearly, notes advocacy group
> 
> 
> In Canada, medical errors account for 28,000 deaths yearly, according to the Canadian Patient Safety Institute which campaigns to reduce that number. Errors are said to be the third leading cause of death in Canada after cancer and heart disease, and every minute and 18 seconds someone is injured fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rcinet.ca


How does this make any difference on this topic??

And besides, that article might have lost all credibility right here..... "At home, people sometimes fall and are injured."    Yea, no shit....


----------



## mariomike

Rather than  debate cause of death - maybe they were struck by lightening - are we willing to accept this from the National Post?



> Canada and most other countries have seen significant rates of 'excess deaths' during the pandemic — many more people dying than the average for previous years.


----------



## CBH99

That sentence has to be the dumbest, most obvious thing I’ve read for a few days now... 🤦🏼‍♂️

Canada.  AND other countries.  Experienced ‘significant rates of excess deaths’ - which translates to many more people dying than before the pandemic.


Wow.  Thanks National Post.  I had no idea 🤦🏼‍♂️


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> How does this make any difference on this topic??
> 
> And besides, that article might have lost all credibility right here..... "At home, people sometimes fall and are injured."    Yea, no shit....


It’s called perspective Bruce.  The pandemic has killed less people in a year then medical fuckups.

Now, let’s wait and see what the fallout will be for delaying or cancelling all the surgeries and screenings for the last year and a half.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

A medical screw-up is falling in your home??   OK, sure....


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> A medical screw-up is falling in your home??   OK, sure....











						Preventable Medical Error Is Canadian Healthcare's Silent Killer
					

While our hospitals save lives every day, they are also the third leading cause of avoidable death every year. In Canada, medical errors and hospital-acquired infections claim between 30,000 and 60,000 lives annually. Thousands more are injured. But to the public, these incidents are largely...




					www.huffingtonpost.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/medical-errors-killing-up-to-24-000-canadians-a-year-1.514758
		










						Hospital errors kill thousands in Canada, study estimates
					

Sample of records finds medical mistakes affected about 7.5 per cent of patients




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




ok here is another few for you ffs


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Yea,...and??


----------



## Remius

Apples and oranges.  How about car accidents. How many car accidents do people die to in a year?  Any issues with a seatbelt?  Because that has reduced deaths.  What about a card that proves you can drive?  Maybe that also reduced deaths.  Or what about laws that state where I am allowed to drive and not drive?  Or ones that dictate that until I can prove I am safe enough to drive I can only do so between certain hours and only on certain roads.  That apparently saves lives too.   Not seeing too many people protesting any of that or breaking any of those rules or complaining when fines are giving.  

Pretty ridiculous comparing driving rules in Ontario to COVID eh?  Or measures taken to prevent the spread to save lives.

So is comparing COVID deaths to hospital accidents. But I guess since someone just showed that the flu isn’t as deadly or contagious one has to find something to make a point that has no bearing.

And for the record I say the same thing about those that use WW2 death comparisons to show how deadly Covid is.  It has no real value to the discussion.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> That sentence has to be the dumbest, most obvious thing I’ve read for a few days now... 🤦🏼‍♂️


The rest of the article, if interested.








						How 'excess deaths' show COVID's real impact, and point to better ways of combating pandemics
					

Canada and most other countries have seen significant rates of 'excess deaths' during the pandemic — many more people dying than the average for previous years




					nationalpost.com
				






> More than a year into the pandemic, it’s a refrain that still reverberates on social media: COVID-19 is no worse than the seasonal flu, so why all the fuss?


----------



## Brad Sallows

Dead is dead.  But for the people who, for example, suspect cancer and are having confirmatory procedures delayed, or know it's cancer and are having treatment postponed, I suppose they'd take the 1.x% chance of death from COVID over certain death from cancer.  Everyone paying attention knows there will be a price for delayed medical care.  The effects won't (could not possibly) all occur and thus not all be counted in one year, which I suspect means it will be difficult to provide a proper accounting.  And there will be reputations and egos on the line, which means additional pressure to downplay such accounting.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Part of the issues with medical screwups nowadays is the disconnect between doctor and patient, most doctors now are wedded to the 10-15 minute billing cycle to pay the bills, it's often not enough time to assess complex problems and many doctors even before Covid now shy away from touching a patient. My old doctor was very much hands on and not put off by much, sadly she got dementia, our new doctor is very kind and caring, but run off her feet. 
Specialists barely see you and generally have their assistants do much of the grunt work. Having a daughter with chronic illnesses has deeply lessened my opinion of our healthcare system and it's effectiveness. Most of the effective solutions we have come across literary has been FB groups of people and caregivers with those issues or dealing with loved ones.


----------



## Halifax Tar

MilEME09 said:


> There is a dental plan for class A types, why that can't be extended to basic medical coverage is beyond me, other then cost.



Lets keep focused here.  Class A reserve work is = to a part time job.  Class A reserve work is not intended to be a way getting benefits and pensions.  If you want that, go full time.  

What's a normal Class A reservist put in a week, 8 hours or less ?  If there is no weekend training.  

I was a Class A reservist and long term Class B.  I went Regs to get the bennys and the sweet sweet PLD.


----------



## Remius

Halifax Tar said:


> Lets keep focused here.  Class A reserve work is = to a part time job.  Class A reserve work is not intended to be a way getting benefits and pensions.  If you want that, go full time.
> 
> What's a normal Class A reservist put in a week, 8 hours or less ?  If there is no weekend training.
> 
> I was a Class A reservist and long term Class B.  I went Regs to get the bennys and the sweet sweet PLD.



Or…maybe offering benefits and advantages helps attract and retain people.  Part time, full time etc etc.  Treat them like garbage and you end up with people who aren’t motivated to help the organisation succeed.  Benefits don’t have to be equal by any means but that’s the sort of attitude that needs to change.  A buddy of mine was injured overseas by an IED.  When he got back and tried to get any CAF medial support after his class C contract ended he faced the same attitude you just expressed on several occasions. 

8 hours or less….

Most of my class A reserve time was getting paid for 8 hours or  less but expected to work every single day with no pay to really equal the extra time I put in.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> Or…maybe offering benefits and advantages helps attract and retain people.  Part time, full time etc etc.  Treat them like garbage and you end up with people who aren’t motivated to help the organisation succeed.  Benefits don’t have to be equal by any means but that’s the sort of attitude that needs to change.  A buddy of mine was injured overseas by an IED.  When he got back and tried to get any CAF medial support after his class C contract ended he faced the same attitude you just expressed on several occasions.
> 
> 8 hours or less….
> 
> Most of my class A reserve time was getting paid for 8 hours or  less but expected to work every single day with no pay to really equal the extra time I put in.



I hear ya, I had a reserve friend lay his head on the go train tracks after we came back from TF1-10.  The CAF really hasn't realized its needs to keep reservists who deploy on class B or C at their deployed with units for months if not a year after they return home.  We do "return from deployment" badly in the CAF.  No push back from me there. 

But I am talking about Class A reservists.  No employer in Canada offers benefits for people who put in 8 hours a week.  Prove me wrong I guess.  Why should Class A reservists be any different ?  

If you're doing unpaid work you need to take that up with your CoC, thats not on.


----------



## Remius

By that logic no other employer offers the same benefits that the CAF does to its regular force members.  Why should they be any different?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> By that logic no other employer offers the same benefits that the CAF does to its regular force members.  Why should they be any different?


The Federal Gov does for PS employees.  So do any other level of Gov. 

What do Feds offer for casual or term PS employees ?


----------



## Remius

Not really.  It isn’t full dental or health etc.  Pensions are different.  

the point is, we expect our PRES types to dgreen, lament when they aren’t but don’t provide the tools to do it.  Do we want our reservists to be deployable or not?  If yes, then enable that.  If no, then let’s stop pretending.

my employer arranged to have every single employee vaccinated because of operational and support reasons.   It isn’t a benefit it’s to keep the organisation working.  

we need to stop thinking of it as some sort of thing we are giving people and treat it as a tool to be more effective.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> Not really.  It isn’t full dental or health etc.  Pensions are different.
> 
> the point is, we expect our PRES types to dgreen, lament when they aren’t but don’t provide the tools to do it.  Do we want our reservists to be deployable or not?  If yes, then enable that.  If no, then let’s stop pretending.
> 
> *my employer arranged to have every single employee vaccinated because of operational and support reasons.   It isn’t a benefit it’s to keep the organisation working.*
> 
> we need to stop thinking of it as some sort of thing we are giving people and treat it as a tool to be more effective.








						Public Service Health Care Plan | Joining the Plan
					

To join the Public Service Health Care Plan, you must first submit an application form to your compensation advisor or pension office.




					www.pshcp.ca
				




The CAF also needs its own dental and medical folks, just like the cooks, may as well use them if we are going to employ them.  No sense training them then having them sit around waiting for a deployment.

So who is the employer responsible for your vaccination then ?  The part time organization or the full time organization ?

We expect our PRES people to dag green over a period of time, like our reg force.  Hell we have 2 weeks added on to WUP Trg just to bring the reservists up to speed on TOETs and IBTS and make sure their paper work wasn't a complete cluster F, which it was.  And then a year of pre-deployment training.


----------



## Remius

The issue is medical and dental.  And I’ve seen more “move now” things more and more.

Pres can’t get regular medical or dentals to dag green.  And you can’t get that over time.  

There is no part time vs full time organisation.  It all falls under the same COC. Every employee be they casual or part time, full time etc etc.  Simple agreement with the province to get everyone vaccinated.

it should not be rocket science to vaccinate reservists against COVID.  Especially if you might have to use them.


----------



## PMedMoe

Can we split the topic of Reserve Medical Coverage into another thread?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Fair my bad


----------



## Brad Sallows

> why that can't be extended to basic medical coverage is beyond me, other then cost.



Surely all Canadians already have basic medical coverage (unless they are electing not to participate in provincial plans).  What is usually the problem is access, and unless a bunch of contributors here assert that CAF members enjoy more and more timely access than everyone else, my default position is to doubt that it is always so.

As noted above, vaccinating Res F is in the organization's interests during a pandemic, in order to have a reserve of people from which to draw for public welfare tasks (ie. not needing to be able to conduct complex tactical tasks).  (I assume that public welfare emergencies during a pandemic - and including the pandemic - might raise parliamentarians' interest high enough to consider issuing orders to show up.)


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> As noted above, vaccinating Res F is in the organization's interests  s*hould be part of the operational readiness plan* during a pandemic, in order to have a reserve of people from which to draw for public welfare tasks (ie. not needing to be able to conduct complex tactical tasks).



There, FTFY


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brad Sallows said:


> As noted above, vaccinating Res F is in the organization's interests during a pandemic, in order to have a reserve of people from which to draw for public welfare tasks (ie. not needing to be able to conduct complex tactical tasks).  (I assume that public welfare emergencies during a pandemic - and including the pandemic - might raise parliamentarians' interest high enough to consider issuing orders to show up.)



I hate the idea/feeling of getting vaccinated ahead of Canadian citizens. 

From an organization point of view, considering how quickly "call in the army!" gets sounded, it makes sense for the military to get vaccinated first. That includes reservists IMO. Especially if we're looking at sending them to LTC homes or remote locations to help.

On the other hand, since reservists can't (effectively) be ordered to work nothing stops them from getting vaccinated and deciding they don't feel like going to whatever they're being asked to go.


----------



## daftandbarmy

It ain't over till it's over...


COVID-19’s impact on the financial health of Canadian businesses: An initial assessment​"The analysis presented in this note shows preliminary evidence on the impact of the pandemic on Canadian businesses. Overall, the extraordinary support programs launched by governments and the Bank appear to have successfully mitigated the impact on the financial health of businesses. That said, we know this picture masks different realities for different types of firms, and that many small businesses are struggling. Large firms are more likely to directly cause systemic problems for the financial system if they default on their debts. From an economic and human perspective, however, small and medium-sized enterprises are important contributors to employment and Canada’s prosperity. At this stage, we cannot conclude with certainty that the financial health of the business sector has been or will remain unscathed by the pandemic. The pandemic could leave some businesses, especially those in hard-hit industries, in a financially vulnerable position, notably due to high levels of debt. There is also a risk of a large and sudden increase in insolvencies among businesses as government programs run their course."









						COVID-19’s impact on the financial health of Canadian businesses: An initial assessment
					

Despite COVID-19 challenges, bold policy measures in Canada have helped businesses manage cash flow pressures and kept insolvency filings low. But the impact of the pandemic has been uneven, and the financial health of some firms may further deteriorate over the next year.




					www.bankofcanada.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows

> "At this stage, we cannot conclude with certainty that the financial health of the business sector has been or will remain unscathed by the pandemic.



How the hell would anyone propose it were possible to "conclude with certainty" that "financial health"  will "remain unscathed"?  Financial health has clearly already been scathed.


----------



## MilEME09

Canadian Forces charges reservist who spoke at rally about ‘killer vaccine’ - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Officer Cadet Ladislas Kenderesi has been charged with 'endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny.'




					www.google.com
				




Ladies and gentlemen, the charges are mutiny, endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny and behaving in a scandalous manner unbecoming of an officer.

Pretty sure that's club Ed time if guilty


----------



## dangerboy

MilEME09 said:


> Canadian Forces charges reservist who spoke at rally about ‘killer vaccine’ - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Officer Cadet Ladislas Kenderesi has been charged with 'endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ladies and gentlemen, the charges are mutiny, endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny and behaving in a scandalous manner unbecoming of an officer.
> 
> Pretty sure that's club Ed time if guilty


103.14 – OFFENCES RELATED TO MUTINY
(1) Section 81 of the National Defence Act provides:

“81. Every person who

(a) causes or conspires with any other person to cause a mutiny,

(b) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny,

(c) being present, does not use his utmost endeavours to suppress a mutiny, or

(d) being aware of an actual or intended mutiny, does not without delay inform his superior officer thereof,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.”


103.25 – SCANDALOUS CONDUCT BY OFFICERS
(1) Section 92 of the National Defence Act provides:

“92. Every officer who behaves in a scandalous manner unbecoming an officer is guilty of an offence and on conviction shall suffer dismissal with disgrace from Her Majesty's service or dismissal from Her Majesty's service.”


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> It ain't over till it's over...
> 
> 
> COVID-19’s impact on the financial health of Canadian businesses: An initial assessment​"The analysis presented in this note shows preliminary evidence on the impact of the pandemic on Canadian businesses. Overall, the extraordinary support programs launched by governments and the Bank appear to have successfully mitigated the impact on the financial health of businesses. That said, we know this picture masks different realities for different types of firms, and that many small businesses are struggling. Large firms are more likely to directly cause systemic problems for the financial system if they default on their debts. From an economic and human perspective, however, small and medium-sized enterprises are important contributors to employment and Canada’s prosperity. At this stage, we cannot conclude with certainty that the financial health of the business sector has been or will remain unscathed by the pandemic. The pandemic could leave some businesses, especially those in hard-hit industries, in a financially vulnerable position, notably due to high levels of debt. There is also a risk of a large and sudden increase in insolvencies among businesses as government programs run their course."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19’s impact on the financial health of Canadian businesses: An initial assessment
> 
> 
> Despite COVID-19 challenges, bold policy measures in Canada have helped businesses manage cash flow pressures and kept insolvency filings low. But the impact of the pandemic has been uneven, and the financial health of some firms may further deteriorate over the next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bankofcanada.ca


Major infrastructure projects in BC, Alberta, Sask, Ontario, and Quebec (Just the ones that have been in recent media that I have caught.  Probably more than I am unaware of) - have all ended up as missed opportunities, as the federal government dithered so pathetically long that the companies involved just said "Screw it..." and walked away.

These were TENS OF THOUSANDS of decent paying, skilled jobs.  That's TENS OF THOUSANDS of families that will not have a chance to receive the income that would have come from those projects.




We have a commercial real-estate crisis right around the corner, as many businesses and firms have realized they can mostly work from home.  They have invested in the right technology, business culture, and arrangements that a majority of their employees now work from home, and have been for over a year.  

If you are a small or medium sized firm, and you can avoid paying a monthly lease in a commercial building (or lease a smaller and cheaper space) - this is very much on your radar.  And clearly doable, since it's already being done.

Family owned businesses that couldn't access the funds needed due to a complicated application process, and have since shut down?  Or didn't have a clue HOW to properly apply?  (Hair-dressers, nail salons, fitness franchises, local restaurants & pubs, etc etc)

Who is going to bail out the commercial real-estate sector when half the businesses realize they don't need to renew their leases?




Quite a few businesses, along with families and individuals, are living off of CRB payments and such.  What happens when those stop, and there aren't many jobs available because there aren't many jobs that even exist anymore?  (For a while, anyway...)   How long will the bank allow you to defer mortgage payments and such, or how long will other creditors allow deferred payments, before everybody needs to start getting paid again?

If the government wasn't so busy dithering on basic "yes or no" decisions before this pandemic, we may very well be in much better shape for recovering.  The recovery could be faster and more robust, if people had jobs to go back to, and industries weren't forced to pack up because it takes the government 16 months to say 'yes or no' to a project that they've has submitted everything and is just waiting for an answer.



The government seems to be under the general impression that once things go back to normal, the money will start coming back in.  People will start paying income taxes again, paying GST for their purchases, etc.  Wrong.

How is that going to work when you can't tax a paycheque because it doesn't exist, and the GST isn't coming in at the level they had hoped because nobody is buying much?  Are you going to start denying everybody EI, as they won't be able to find work as a direct result of the government's poor decisions?  If you will let people go on EI, or continue on EI, then why not just extend CRB payments - but where do you eventually draw the line?



My opinion of government continues to sink quite rapidly.  Not because I am a pessimest, and genuinely not because I am trying to be bias or looking for reasons.  In fact, quite the opposite - I am constantly looking for reasons to say "Oh, I'm glad they did this!"  or  "Oh, that will really help get the economy back on track for that region!"   But I haven't found many opportunities to say that.

Vaccines are out, and a majority of people have received their first dose.  And the numbers are now climbing for people who are receiving their 2nd dose (slow start at the beginning, but once it got momentum the number of vaccinated persons increased at a respectable rate.)  

With a majority of people vaccinated, summer is here (warm weather, sunshine, and fresh air are surprisingly helpful), our treatment methods for Covid have vastly improved since the beginning of this, etc etc - it would be nice if the provincial governments were more proactive and eager to release a solid Reopening Plan.  Some have started, but again due to public pressure now that the vaccines are getting jabbed at decent rates.  

It would be nice if the federal government said "Okay, a majority of people are either vaccinated or getting vaccinated.  The worst of this seems to be behind us.  Having emergency powers was helpful, as we needed to make decisions quickly & execute on those decisions.  Now that the worst is behind us, we need to look at returning the power granted to us, to where it belongs."


We've had more than a year of sensationalized headlines, misleading numbers, and general uncertainty.  Was it important we closed down and were cautious?  Absolutely.  Was it important that we took measures such as improved testing, and speeding up the approval process for vaccines?  Yes indeed.  Was it helpful that the government could react swiftly to changing situations, without needing to debate it in Parliament?  Yes, sometimes someone just needs to grab the stick and get things done.  Is it good that we prioritized people's safety as best we could, even at the expense of economic interests?  Yes, it was the morally right thing to do.


But there comes a time when things need to return to a healthier balance.  And if the time hasn't come, it is coming soon - and I wish our respective governments would be planning, and executing plans, to make that happen.

(Sorry for rant... just mind blown at the article.)


----------



## CBH99

dangerboy said:


> 103.14 – OFFENCES RELATED TO MUTINY
> (1) Section 81 of the National Defence Act provides:
> 
> “81. Every person who
> 
> (a) causes or conspires with any other person to cause a mutiny,
> 
> (b) endeavours to persuade any person to join in a mutiny,
> 
> (c) being present, does not use his utmost endeavours to suppress a mutiny, or
> 
> (d) being aware of an actual or intended mutiny, does not without delay inform his superior officer thereof,
> 
> is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for life or to less punishment.”


So basically... he will be fired (if he hasn't already released, which I thought he did?) for the obvious.


On the CC side, I honestly don't see the charge even sticking.  I doubt he has to worry much about a conviction.  (A man of no real rank in the military got caught up in the frenzy of paranoia - caused primarily from sensationalized and inaccurate information being released, by both the mainstream media & social media - and sincerely felt he had to speak out because he had concerns for his fellow citizens.  As misguided as it may have been.)

Silly to take as fact everything the media tells you?  Ofcourse. But with it everywhere, 24/7, and a lot of fake social media articles seeming to come from legitimate sources, I can understand how he was frightened into thinking the worst.

Stupid to show up in uniform, driving an Itlis, and presenting yourself as the voice of the CAF?  Yupp.  Very.  Extremely.  Like WTF were you thinking?  Did you honestly think that there wouldn't be any consequences?  Holy heck.   🤦‍♂️ 

Did you try to cause a mutiny and encourage a mass of people to overthrow the government?  No, I don't think he did anyway?  Did he himself attempt to infiltrate parliament and oust the sitting government?  No.

I imagine the CC charge will either be amended or dropped.  It's a stretch...  (0.02)




Good thing he didn't stand on a bus a block away from Parliament, and tell a large group of people to "Go mob the Parliament buildings, I'll see you there!"   🤦‍♂️


----------



## mariomike

> Ladies and gentlemen, the charges are mutiny, endeavoring to persuade another person to join in a mutiny and behaving in a scandalous manner unbecoming of an officer.
> Pretty sure that's club Ed time if guilty



For reference to the discussion,








						OCdt Speaks at Freedom Rally
					

UPDATE. I cannot link the article due to the officer, but the Ottawa Citizen reports that numbnuts has been charged with a mutiny related offence; 81(b) NDA as far as I can tell.  The article also mentions that he was charged under NDA 92 (Scandalous Conduct by Officers).  Geez, I hope this one...




					army.ca
				



10 pages.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> And if the time hasn't come, it is coming soon - and I wish our respective governments would be planning, and executing plans, to make that happen.



It's almost impossible to consistently make reliable predictions about future fiscal outcomes, otherwise we'd be surrounded by wealthy prognosticators.  The only things sure about governments is that they will choose to meddle and that their decision cycles will be laughably slow, resulting in chronic misallocation of public funds.


----------



## Kilted

Halifax Tar said:


> I hear ya, I had a reserve friend lay his head on the go train tracks after we came back from TF1-10.  The CAF really hasn't realized its needs to keep reservists who deploy on class B or C at their deployed with units for months if not a year after they return home.  We do "return from deployment" badly in the CAF.  No push back from me there.
> 
> But I am talking about Class A reservists.  No employer in Canada offers benefits for people who put in 8 hours a week.  Prove me wrong I guess.  Why should Class A reservists be any different ?
> 
> If you're doing unpaid work you need to take that up with your CoC, thats not on.


That would make it more difficult to get the time off from civilian employment. That's almost a three year contract right there for potentially only 6-8 months deployed. 

I think that it averages out to more than 8 hours a week. That being said, the reserves work the same way as everything else, it's five percent of the regiment doing 95 percent of the work most of the time, and that not just the Class B people. 

I don't know if it was the same across the country, but before covid we were significantly more busy then we had been during Afghanistan.  More weekend exercises, more ten day plus ex's, secondary taskings, cooperation with reg force, public affairs, ceremonial events, etc.


----------



## FJAG

Auditor General's report on Public Health Agency's mismanagement of the National Emergency Strategic Stockpile is in and, as anticipated, it isn't good.


> Federal health agency wasn't ready for pandemic equipment demand, auditor finds​​AG Karen Hogan's review says Public Health Agency of Canada failed to address problems in stockpile management


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ag-ness-ppe-1.6041158

So ... I'll put money on no one getting fired.

🍻


----------



## QV

Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.  But for those with more open minds you may find this perspective compelling.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.  But for those with more open minds you may find this perspective compelling.


Is Dr. Ponesse speaking for herself, of for Liberty Coalition Canada who also interviewed Randy Hillier, Derek Sloan and others?

If the latter, I think I'll use my 15 minutes for something worthwhile. Like watching paint dry.


----------



## OldSolduer

Here in the Province of Manitoba the Government is toying with the idea of giving incentives to people to be vaccinated.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> Here in the Province of Manitoba the Government is toying with the idea of giving incentives to people to be vaccinated.


Not the only ones.


			vaccine incentives - Google Search


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Is Dr. Ponesse speaking for herself, of for Liberty Coalition Canada who also interviewed Randy Hillier, Derek Sloan and others?
> 
> If the latter, I think I'll use my 15 minutes for something worthwhile. Like watching paint dry.


Like I said its for those with open minds willing to listen to other perspectives.  You can continue to watch paint dry.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Like I said its for those with open minds willing to listen to other perspectives.  You can continue to watch paint dry.


I listened and she lost me when she said we we were not in a pandemic.  

she also seems to cherry pick info.  The WHO certainly thinks we are in a pandemic but she uses the WHO to support.

and no real sources for any of her claims other than pictures of headlines.

She’s a doctor of philosophy.  I think her questions about ethics and what not are valid to make.  It’s when she starts getting into the science, and also says “in my view” a lot.  

and yeah….Liberty Coalition of Canada…


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.  But for those with more open minds you may find this perspective compelling.


Interesting approach to an attempted persuasive argument...insult a portion of the audience
you’re trying to influence.

Anywho...my mind is open enough, that I research many sources. After watching all 15:22 of the video, I can say that I prefer Jenny McCarthy over PhD(r). Ponesse.  I found her disappointingly thin in a true philosophical discourse of ethics related to COVID.  On the subject of ‘fear’, I actually find Marilyn Manson to be more philosophically eloquent on the issue of fear, though related to firearm violence than purportedly non-pandemics, than PhD(r). Ponesse.

Regards
G2G


----------



## daftandbarmy

Kilted said:


> That would make it more difficult to get the time off from civilian employment. That's almost a three year contract right there for potentially only 6-8 months deployed.
> 
> I think that it averages out to more than 8 hours a week. That being said, the reserves work the same way as everything else, it's five percent of the regiment doing 95 percent of the work most of the time, and that not just the Class B people.
> 
> I don't know if it was the same across the country, but before covid we were significantly more busy then we had been during Afghanistan.  More weekend exercises, more ten day plus ex's, secondary taskings, cooperation with reg force, public affairs, ceremonial events, etc.



The other false analogy is to compare Class A reserve service with the civilian workplace. 

It's nothing like it in a whole bunch of ways, starting with the whole 'this is how you kill people with a bayonet' thing. In many ways, being 'twice the citizen' is 'twice as difficult'.

If we want our reserves ready to serve, they need the same medical care. It's that simple. The DAG process for OP LENTUS, for example, exposed the ridiculously low levels of readiness around supposedly simple health reated matters, like dental care.


----------



## Kilted

I only watched the first four minutes of that video, if it had of been on Facebook, I would have tagged it for misinformation.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I just read Facebook will no longer take down posts suggesting Covid was man-made........


----------



## daftandbarmy

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I just read Facebook will no longer take down posts suggesting Covid was man-made........



This was funny/sad:


----------



## QV

"Has anyone ever calculated the odds of a deadly virus coincidently originating in the same neighborhood as a virology lab doing related work?" - Scott Adams

U.S. intel report identified 3 Wuhan lab researchers who fell ill in November 2019








						U.S. intel report identified 3 Wuhan lab workers who fell ill in 2019
					

The details add to circumstantial evidence supporting a theory Covid-19 spread to humans after escaping from a lab. But the evidence is far from conclusive.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




What are the odds anyway?


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Like I said its for those with open minds willing to listen to other perspectives.  You can continue to watch paint dry.


I do have a pretty open mind but I tend to take anything you post with a grain of salt (and lots of tequila). 

Judging from what others said, I'm glad I didn't bother watching. When you post sonething from a _credible_ medical expert, I'll give it a chance.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> What are the odds anyway?



Not easily calculated.  Nearly everyone, experts included, appears to be just making numbers up to express relative confidence (ie. much more likely to be natural origin than lab leak).

Neither of the two predominant origin theories (natural, lab leak) is proven; proof is unlikely to ever occur.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> I do have a pretty open mind but I tend to take anything you post with a grain of salt (and lots of tequila).
> 
> Judging from what others said, I'm glad I didn't bother watching. When you post sonething from a _credible_ medical expert, I'll give it a chance.



If you had watched you'd know she is Dr. Julie Ponesse, ethics professor at Western University with a background in bio ethics.  Western is one of Canada's most prestigious universities with a faculty in health sciences.  I'd say she is credible and relevant.  But you keep watching that paint dry and let others do the thinking for you.


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> If you had watched you'd know she is Dr. Julie Ponesse, ethics professor at Western University with a background in bio ethics.  Western is one of Canada's most prestigious universities with a faculty in health sciences.  I'd say she is credible and relevant.  But you keep watching that paint dry and let others do the thinking for you.


So... can we assign equal credibility and relevance to MDs who specialize in virology, and public health?


----------



## QV

Brad Sallows said:


> Not easily calculated.  Nearly everyone, experts included, appears to be just making numbers up to express relative confidence (ie. much more likely to be natural origin than lab leak).
> 
> Neither of the two predominant origin theories (natural, lab leak) is proven; proof is unlikely to ever occur.


One thing that can absolutely be proven is if it were genetically modified.  And if so it wouldn't have a natural origin.  It would have to have leaked.  And do you think they knew this early last year, or are now just hinting at it?  Come on...

The outstanding question will soon be whether it was accidental or on purpose.  (edit to add): Which the WH hasn't ruled out as of today according to a press release BTW.


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> So... can we assign equal credibility and relevance to MDs who specialize in virology, and public health?


Only if the government isn't censoring the opposing view.


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> Only if the government isn't censoring the opposing view.


Well, the government hasn't taken down your video yet ...


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> Well, the government hasn't taken down your video yet ...


How have the various provincial health authorities been treating MDs who've raised concerns that don't run parallel to the official narrative? Revoking or threatening to revoke licenses.


----------



## Jarnhamar

QV said:


> Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.  But for those with more open minds you may find this perspective compelling.



What do you think about the arrangement of books in her bookshelf? What does that tell you about her?


----------



## dimsum

QV said:


> If you had watched you'd know she is Dr. Julie Ponesse, ethics professor at Western University with a background in bio ethics.


From the Western MA Philosophy page, her specialties are:  Ancient philosophy, especially topics at the intersection of Aristotle's ethics and natural philosophy, History of Ethics, Normative and Applied Ethics.  






						Faculty - Department of Philosophy - Western University
					






					www.uwo.ca


----------



## QV

Jarnhamar said:


> What do you think about the arrangement of books in her bookshelf? What does that tell you about her?


That is weak Jarnhamar. Not exactly sure what you're getting at, except maybe since it is disorderly she is somehow discredited?








						A Messy Desk Is a Sign of Genius, According to Science
					

Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, and Steve Jobs had messy desks, just like most other geniuses.




					www.inc.com


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> How have the various provincial health authorities been treating MDs who've raised concerns that don't run parallel to the official narrative? Revoking or threatening to revoke licenses.


Do you have examples of this?  I can't find any after a quick search.


----------



## Jarnhamar

You spoke about people having an open mind (after situating the estimate). I was curious if you thought. An exercise in critical thinking, or maybe it's just a bookshelf.


I personally find there's a lot of confirmation bias when it comes to "experts".


----------



## brihard

Mick said:


> Do you have examples of this?  I can't find any after a quick search.


That’s not even how it works anyway. QV is making up BS. Doctors are regulated by an independent provincial regulatory body. Government/political officials don’t have the ability to have doctors professionally censured through revocation of licenses.


----------



## Mick

brihard said:


> That’s not even how it works anyway. QV is making up BS. Doctors are regulated by an independent provincial regulatory body. Government/political officials don’t have the ability to have doctors professionally censured through revocation of licenses.


Exactly.  So I'm curious as to what QV is basing this claim upon.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> If you had watched you'd know she is Dr. Julie Ponesse, ethics professor at Western University with a background in bio ethics.  Western is one of Canada's most prestigious universities with a faculty in health sciences.  I'd say she is credible and relevant.  But you keep watching that paint dry and let others do the thinking for you.


I did watch it, the whole thing.  Again, where she lost me was when she stated that we were not in a pandemic. 

Do you actually believe that?  And because an ancient philosophy expert said so?  Well she said “in my view” which are very carefully chosen words btw.  She started to veer out of her lanes when she started getting into the science.

her few valid or at least worth considering arguments about ethics were drowned out by that nonsense.


----------



## brihard

Mick said:


> Exactly.  So I'm curious as to what QV is basing this claim upon.


I’m unable to tell whether he’s personally fabricating, or just parroting.

I suspect he’s basing this on a grossly inflated recollection of the antics of Dr. Kulvinder Gill, whose blatant propaganda got her a wrist-slap of a caution from the CPSO. https://www.researchgate.net/post/C...tened_because_of_Opinion_on_COVID-19_Comments


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> If you had watched you'd know she is Dr. Julie Ponesse, ethics professor at Western University with a background in bio ethics.  Western is one of Canada's most prestigious universities with a faculty in health sciences.  I'd say she is credible and relevant.  But you keep watching that paint dry and let others do the thinking for you.


Western....prestigious?  For medicine, it’s #7 in Canada for 2020, but it ain’t McGill or UofT.

Anyway, how does that matter to Dr. Ponesse’s credentials...she’s not a medical Doctor.   She’s as qualified to talk factually about COVID as Dr. Sheldon Cooper or Dr. Ross Geller...


----------



## Loachman

QV said:


> A Messy Desk Is a Sign of Genius, According to Science
> 
> 
> Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, and Steve Jobs had messy desks, just like most other geniuses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.inc.com



Hey! I'm a genius!

I can barely find my desk some days.


----------



## Scoobs

Jarnhamar said:


> What do you think about the arrangement of books in her bookshelf? What does that tell you about her?


I've spent 6 yrs of my life in academia (BEng, MSc) and it looks just like most professor's offices that I have been in.  What's your point?


----------



## Scoobs

I watched the entire video and have to question some of the comments above.  To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment.  All the other ones are clearly related to her correctly pointing out that any dissenting opinion on COVID and the associated response is purposely being silenced and that it is her desire for this to stop so that all scientific voices can be heard, not just the ones pushing the consensus.  In fact, a lot of you here are trying to do the same.  I say the following not to brag, but to provide a perspective that I am not just some "internet dude" offering his "uneducated opinion".  I have spent 6 years of my life in university, first obtaining a Bach of Aerospace Engineering and then a Master's degree in Science, Reliability Engineering (the military sent me down to the States for this). While earning my MSc I studied life data analysis since the methodology for determining reliability in components is the same as determining the survivability of people.  Part of these studies included mathematical modelling specifically concerning humans.  I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not a virologist, but I damn well can study peer reviewed scientific papers and look at the data used to come to the conclusions in said papers.  In fact, most doctors offering their opinions in media clearly do not know much about mathematical modelling.  Just because someone has the letters "MD" behind their name doesn't make them experts in everything.

Getting back to the attempts to muzzle scientific discourse.  One of the key tenets of scientific progression is the ability of scientists to disagree with one another without the fear of being told to shut up.  This principle has progressed science throughout the centuries.  Disagreements led to one scientist trying to prove their own hypothesis or disprove another scientist's hypothesis.  Studies are carried out, hypotheses proven/disproven, papers peer reviewed, and some are published.  This is a continual, never ending process that prior to COVID was staunchly defended in the scientific community.

In regards to COVID.  FYI to those who are immediately discrediting the professor mentioned in this thread that there are opposing viewpoints about COVID and the associated responses that are supported by peer reviewed papers for BOTH "sides".  Since COVID is such a hot button topic this will continue to be this way for some time to come.  Does this mean that we should tell either "side" to shut up?  No.  In fact, the exact opposite.  We should encourage opposing viewpoints and discuss both with RESPECT, not insults or ad hominem attacks just because you may not agree with the other person's opinion.


----------



## Remius

Scoobs said:


> I watched the entire video and have to question some of the comments above.  To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment.  All the other ones are clearly related to her correctly pointing out that any dissenting opinion on COVID and the associated response is purposely being silenced and that it is her desire for this to stop so that all scientific voices can be heard, not just the ones pushing the consensus.  In fact, a lot of you here are trying to do the same.  I say the following not to brag, but to provide a perspective that I am not just some "internet dude" offering his "uneducated opinion".  I have spent 6 years of my life in university, first obtaining a Bach of Aerospace Engineering and then a Master's degree in Science, Reliability Engineering (the military sent me down to the States for this). While earning my MSc I studied life data analysis since the methodology for determining reliability in components is the same as determining the survivability of people.  Part of these studies included mathematical modelling specifically concerning humans.  I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not a virologist, but I damn well can study peer reviewed scientific papers and look at the data used to come to the conclusions in said papers.  In fact, most doctors offering their opinions in media clearly do not know much about mathematical modelling.  Just because someone has the letters "MD" behind their name doesn't make them experts in everything.
> 
> Getting back to the attempts to muzzle scientific discourse.  One of the key tenets of scientific progression is the ability of scientists to disagree with one another without the fear of being told to shut up.  This principle has progressed science throughout the centuries.  Disagreements led to one scientist trying to prove their own hypothesis or disprove another scientist's hypothesis.  Studies are carried out, hypotheses proven/disproven, papers peer reviewed, and some are published.  This is a continual, never ending process that prior to COVID was staunchly defended in the scientific community.
> 
> In regards to COVID.  FYI to those who are immediately discrediting the professor mentioned in this thread that there are opposing viewpoints about COVID and the associated responses that are supported by peer reviewed papers for BOTH "sides".  Since COVID is such a hot button topic this will continue to be this way for some time to come.  Does this mean that we should tell either "side" to shut up?  No.  In fact, the exact opposite.  We should encourage opposing viewpoints and discuss both with RESPECT, not insults or ad hominem attacks just because you may not agree with the other person's opinion.


No one told QV to shut up.  I didn’t outright dismiss Dr, Ponesse either.  Maybe it’s a knee jerk reaction but she started her entire 3 part essay on the subject with “we are not in a pandemic”.   So yes it makes whatever she says after sort of moot and pointless.  As I said she made some valid points but she completely discredited herself with that starting point.

It is the same thing when someone says “all soldiers are murderers” and then proceeds to discuss the ethics of killing.  He or she may be an expert in ethics, but hasn’t served a day in uniform, but proceeds to make a bunch of points and arguments that killing is wrong.   The first part unfortunately ruins whatever valid thing he or she might have to say about the subject.


----------



## Good2Golf

Scoobs said:


> I watched the entire video and have to question some of the comments above.  To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment.  All the other ones are clearly related to her correctly pointing out that any dissenting opinion on COVID and the associated response is purposely being silenced and that it is her desire for this to stop so that all scientific voices can be heard, not just the ones pushing the consensus.  In fact, a lot of you here are trying to do the same.  I say the following not to brag, but to provide a perspective that I am not just some "internet dude" offering his "uneducated opinion".  I have spent 6 years of my life in university, first obtaining a Bach of Aerospace Engineering and then a Master's degree in Science, Reliability Engineering (the military sent me down to the States for this). While earning my MSc I studied life data analysis since the methodology for determining reliability in components is the same as determining the survivability of people.  Part of these studies included mathematical modelling specifically concerning humans.  I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not a virologist, but I damn well can study peer reviewed scientific papers and look at the data used to come to the conclusions in said papers.  In fact, most doctors offering their opinions in media clearly do not know much about mathematical modelling.  Just because someone has the letters "MD" behind their name doesn't make them experts in everything.
> 
> Getting back to the attempts to muzzle scientific discourse.  One of the key tenets of scientific progression is the ability of scientists to disagree with one another without the fear of being told to shut up.  This principle has progressed science throughout the centuries.  Disagreements led to one scientist trying to prove their own hypothesis or disprove another scientist's hypothesis.  Studies are carried out, hypotheses proven/disproven, papers peer reviewed, and some are published.  This is a continual, never ending process that prior to COVID was staunchly defended in the scientific community.
> 
> In regards to COVID.  FYI to those who are immediately discrediting the professor mentioned in this thread that there are opposing viewpoints about COVID and the associated responses that are supported by peer reviewed papers for BOTH "sides".  Since COVID is such a hot button topic this will continue to be this way for some time to come.  Does this mean that we should tell either "side" to shut up?  No.  In fact, the exact opposite.  We should encourage opposing viewpoints and discuss both with RESPECT, not insults or ad hominem attacks just because you may not agree with the other person's opinion.


So we’re not in a pandemic then?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Good2Golf said:


> So we’re not in a pandemic then?



Well I guess one could also say based on percentage of deaths it's a lightweight.
List of epidemics - Wikipedia          I went up to 4 million deaths and down to 7 billion people and came up with  0.53%.


----------



## Scoobs

Good2Golf said:


> So we’re not in a pandemic then?


Did I say that or did I say "To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment."?  I specifically said it this way because some people believe that we are in a pandemic and some do not.  As well, some people define a pandemic differently than others.  However, I did specifically mention it because I do agree with the comments above that the professor could have left that part out, thus avoiding people to immediately dismiss her other valid points.


----------



## Good2Golf

Scoobs said:


> Did I say that or did I say "To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment."?  I specifically said it this way because some people believe that we are in a pandemic and some do not.  As well, some people define a pandemic differently than others.  However, I did specifically mention it because I do agree with the comments above that the professor could have left that part out, thus avoiding people to immediately dismiss her other valid points.


It speaks to her legitimacy.  The majority of specialists and laypeople alike seem to acknowledge that we are in a pandemic with COVID, the WHO declaring the Coronavirus a pandemic on 11 March 2020, so for as soothingly as Dr. Ponesse makes her points, doesn’t mean that we should all agree with her.  You can feel as free to do so as you wish.  That’s your choice.  I can feel free to take any number of factors I wish to assess her position as not having sufficient merit to persuade me to accept her position. One of those factors is indeed her belief that COVID does not represent a pandemic.  Maybe your MSc(RelEng) gives you different perspective to look beyond Dr. Ponesse’s assertions?  I’m glad that you’re enlightened as such.  I don’t have that background so I am forced to rely on my own experiences and brand of critical thought, which does allow me to consider counter-counter-establishmentarian ideas.  YMMV.


----------



## QV

Scoobs said:


> I watched the entire video and have to question some of the comments above.  To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment.  All the other ones are clearly related to her correctly pointing out that any dissenting opinion on COVID and the associated response is purposely being silenced and that it is her desire for this to stop so that all scientific voices can be heard, not just the ones pushing the consensus.  In fact, a lot of you here are trying to do the same.  I say the following not to brag, but to provide a perspective that I am not just some "internet dude" offering his "uneducated opinion".  I have spent 6 years of my life in university, first obtaining a Bach of Aerospace Engineering and then a Master's degree in Science, Reliability Engineering (the military sent me down to the States for this). While earning my MSc I studied life data analysis since the methodology for determining reliability in components is the same as determining the survivability of people.  Part of these studies included mathematical modelling specifically concerning humans.  I'm not a medical doctor and I'm not a virologist, but I damn well can study peer reviewed scientific papers and look at the data used to come to the conclusions in said papers.  In fact, most doctors offering their opinions in media clearly do not know much about mathematical modelling.  Just because someone has the letters "MD" behind their name doesn't make them experts in everything.
> 
> Getting back to the attempts to muzzle scientific discourse.  One of the key tenets of scientific progression is the ability of scientists to disagree with one another without the fear of being told to shut up.  This principle has progressed science throughout the centuries.  Disagreements led to one scientist trying to prove their own hypothesis or disprove another scientist's hypothesis.  Studies are carried out, hypotheses proven/disproven, papers peer reviewed, and some are published.  This is a continual, never ending process that prior to COVID was staunchly defended in the scientific community.
> 
> In regards to COVID.  FYI to those who are immediately discrediting the professor mentioned in this thread that there are opposing viewpoints about COVID and the associated responses that are supported by peer reviewed papers for BOTH "sides".  Since COVID is such a hot button topic this will continue to be this way for some time to come.  Does this mean that we should tell either "side" to shut up?  No.  In fact, the exact opposite.  We should encourage opposing viewpoints and discuss both with RESPECT, not insults or ad hominem attacks just because you may not agree with the other person's opinion.


Well spoken.  It’s refreshing to read the occasional post like this.  I look forward to the litigation of how COVID was handled for years to come, which can only help us for the next time.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> No one told QV to shut up.  I didn’t outright dismiss Dr, Ponesse either.  Maybe it’s a knee jerk reaction but she started her entire 3 part essay on the subject wit*h “we are not in a pandemic”. *  So yes it makes whatever she says after sort of moot and pointless.  As I said she made some valid points but she completely discredited herself with that starting point.
> 
> It is the same thing when someone says “all soldiers are murderers” and then proceeds to discuss the ethics of killing.  He or she may be an expert in ethics, but hasn’t served a day in uniform, but proceeds to make a bunch of points and arguments that killing is wrong.   The first part unfortunately ruins whatever valid thing he or she might have to say about the subject.


This is likely based on the position that PCR testing is deeply flawed resulting in significant false positives, those inflated numbers informing policy decisions.  A number of foreign courts have made rulings PCR tests are not reliable for this purpose.  Germany, Portugues, Dutch and Austrian courts as far as I know so far...









						Portuguese Court Rules PCR Tests “Unreliable” & Quarantines “Unlawful”
					

An appeals court in Portugal has ruled that the PCR process is not a reliable test for Sars-Cov-2, and therefore any enforced quarantine based on those test results is unlawful. Further, the ruling…




					off-guardian.org


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> This is likely based on the position that PCR testing is deeply flawed resulting in significant false positives, those inflated numbers informing policy decisions.  A number of foreign courts have made rulings PCR tests are not reliable for this purpose.  Germany, Portugues, Dutch and Austrian courts as far as I know so far...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Portuguese Court Rules PCR Tests “Unreliable” & Quarantines “Unlawful”
> 
> 
> An appeals court in Portugal has ruled that the PCR process is not a reliable test for Sars-Cov-2, and therefore any enforced quarantine based on those test results is unlawful. Further, the ruling…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> off-guardian.org



Right.  And it was found that the Judge didn’t understand what he was being presented.  Misread and misunderstood the science presented to him









						Covid PCR test reliability doubtful – Portugal judges
					

The PCR test “is unable to determine, beyond reasonable doubt, that a positive result corresponds, in fact, to the infection of a person by the SARS-CoV-2 virus”, said the Lisbon Court of Appeal.




					www.theportugalnews.com
				












						Fact check: How accurate are PCR tests for the novel coronavirus?
					

Experts say PCR tests for the virus that causes COVID-19 almost never return false positive results, but false negatives are more common.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




And while there may be false positives, there are far more false negatives.  

This explanation from the University of McGill breaks it down nicely and why people are misusing PCR results to claim that the pandemic isn’t as bad as the tests show. It’s because, like Dr. Ponesesse, they don’t understand what they are interpreting.









						The COVID-19 PCR Test Is Reliable Despite the Commotion About Ct Values
					

True crime series like Serial and Making a Murderer invite us to sharpen our abilities and to outperform the detectives assigned to the case in figuring out what really happened. We hear the official narrative and we then inspect various clues provided to us by the storyteller, turning them...



					www.mcgill.ca


----------



## mariomike

Scoobs said:


> To me, the only thing that she says that might be considered as controversial is the "not in pandemic" comment.


I'm not an expert. But, based on the link Bruce posted, it sounds like one to me.

Death toll 1918 - 20 Influenza pandemic:  17–100 million.

Death toll Covid-19 pandemic as of 27 May, 2021: *7.5 million+ (estimated).

If we are discussing the definition of the word itself,








						Definition of PANDEMIC
					

occurring over a wide geographic area (such as multiple countries or continents) and typically affecting a significant proportion of the population; characterized by very widespread growth or extent : epidemic… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com
				




( Sorry for the bold font, that was my computer. Not me. )*


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Right.  And it was found that the Judge didn’t understand what he was being presented.  Misread and misunderstood the science presented to him
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid PCR test reliability doubtful – Portugal judges
> 
> 
> The PCR test “is unable to determine, beyond reasonable doubt, that a positive result corresponds, in fact, to the infection of a person by the SARS-CoV-2 virus”, said the Lisbon Court of Appeal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theportugalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: How accurate are PCR tests for the novel coronavirus?
> 
> 
> Experts say PCR tests for the virus that causes COVID-19 almost never return false positive results, but false negatives are more common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And while there may be false positives, there are far more false negatives.
> 
> This explanation from the University of McGill breaks it down nicely and why people are misusing PCR results to claim that the pandemic isn’t as bad as the tests show. It’s because, like Dr. Ponesesse, they don’t understand what they are interpreting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The COVID-19 PCR Test Is Reliable Despite the Commotion About Ct Values
> 
> 
> True crime series like Serial and Making a Murderer invite us to sharpen our abilities and to outperform the detectives assigned to the case in figuring out what really happened. We hear the official narrative and we then inspect various clues provided to us by the storyteller, turning them...
> 
> 
> 
> www.mcgill.ca


So who found the judge misunderstood and has the case been overturned?  Not yet that I’m aware of. 

The judges quoted a paper published in The Lancet a snip of what was stated in the Lancet here:

“*To summarise, false-positive COVID-19 swab test results might be increasingly likely in the current epidemiological climate in the UK, with substantial consequences at the personal, health system, and societal levels (panel).*”


----------



## dimsum

Scoobs said:


> As well, some people define a pandemic differently than others


In this case, isn't there an official definition by the WHO?


----------



## mariomike

dimsum said:


> In this case, isn't there an official definition by the WHO?







__





						"world health organization" definition pandemic - Google Search
					





					www.google.com
				




I posted the Mirriam-Webster dictionary definition of pandemic above.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "world health organization" definition pandemic - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted the Mirriam-Webster dictionary definition of pandemic above.


Now do the definitions of herd immunity, both the pre-COVID and new definition.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Now do the definitions of herd immunity, both the pre-COVID and new definition.


I don't have to. You are the one making the claims on here.

Sort of like me claiming a teapot is orbiting the sun. Then demanding you prove that it isn't.

You lost my interest with your first sentence,


> Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.


----------



## dimsum

mariomike said:


> Sort of like me claiming a teapot is orbiting the sun. Then demanding you prove that it isn't.


oops


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> So who found the judge misunderstood and has the case been overturned?  Not yet that I’m aware of.
> 
> The judges quoted a paper published in The Lancet a snip of what was stated in the Lancet here:
> 
> “*To summarise, false-positive COVID-19 swab test results might be increasingly likely in the current epidemiological climate in the UK, with substantial consequences at the personal, health system, and societal levels (panel).*”


Did you not read the link I sent to the push back against the judge’s ruling?

and to add, when one digs enough, the ruling was specific to the case of those 4 travellers, that there was enough reasonable doubt to state that they may not have tested positive because of the way the test was administered, Portuguese law and the legality of quarantining said travellers.  









						Court decides that quarantine in state of alert is illegal
					

The PCR test “is unable to determine, beyond reasonable doubt, that such positivity result corresponds, in fact, to the infection of a person by the SARS-CoV-2 virus”, said the Lisbon Court of Appeal.




					www.theportugalnews.com
				




So it had to do with the state of alert they were at in order to enforce a quarantine.

and…. The Portuguese Court of Appeal ruled that quarantine was illegal and that PCR tests were inaccurate. - Poynter

The issue has more to do with Portuguese law, and not the actual efficiency of the test.  Which blows Dr. Ponesse’s assertion (and yours) that we are not in a pandemic.  

Those that have grabbed that bone wonder why more attention isn’t given to this or that media is ignoring this have ignored the fact that it isn’t supported by anything tangible and that they are even misinterpreting the court’s ruling.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Did you not read the link I sent to the push back against the judge’s ruling?
> 
> and to add, when one digs enough, the ruling was specific to the case of those 4 travellers, that there was enough reasonable doubt to state that they may not have tested positive because of the way the test was administered, Portuguese law and the legality of quarantining said travellers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Court decides that quarantine in state of alert is illegal
> 
> 
> The PCR test “is unable to determine, beyond reasonable doubt, that such positivity result corresponds, in fact, to the infection of a person by the SARS-CoV-2 virus”, said the Lisbon Court of Appeal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theportugalnews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it had to do with the state of alert they were at in order to enforce a quarantine.
> 
> and…. The Portuguese Court of Appeal ruled that quarantine was illegal and that PCR tests were inaccurate. - Poynter
> 
> The issue has more to do with Portuguese law, and not the actual efficiency of the test.  Which blows Dr. Ponesse’s assertion (and yours) that we are not in a pandemic.
> 
> Those that have grabbed that bone wonder why more attention isn’t given to this or that media is ignoring this have ignored the fact that it isn’t supported by anything tangible and that they are even misinterpreting the court’s ruling.


Sorry to say Remius but a news article doesn’t over turn a court ruling, and you ignoring the findings from the publication in the Lancet won’t make them go away.  The whole point is there are varying professional opinions on how PCR testing is being used, and only one side is getting stifled... how can you not see that as a problem? You’re reaching again in this, and with your assertion that now I personally am of the belief we are not in a pandemic simply for raising these discussion points. Are we not allowed to raise questions around here without every attempt to personally discredit?


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> I don't have to. You are the one making the claims on here.
> 
> Sort of like me claiming a teapot is orbiting the sun. Then demanding you prove that it isn't.
> 
> You lost my interest with your first sentence,


What are you even talking about?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Sorry to say Remius but a news article doesn’t over turn a court ruling, and you ignoring the findings from the publication in the Lancet won’t make them go away.  The whole point is there are varying professional opinions on how PCR testing is being used, and only one side is getting stifled... how can you not see that as a problem? You’re reaching again in this, and with your assertion that now I personally am of the belief we are not in a pandemic simply for raising these discussion points. Are we not allowed to raise questions around here without every attempt to personally discredit?


How did I personally discredit you?  I pointed out the fallacy of the arguments made.  I didn’t nor did I ever say the court ruling was overturned.  Just that you misunderstood the actual court ruling.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> What are you even talking about?



Guess you never heard of Russell's teapot analogy.








						Russell's teapot - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				



*"Russell's teapot* is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of _disproof_ to others."



> Now do the definitions of herd immunity, both the pre-COVID and new definition.



After reading your first sentence, I pretty much lost interest in your demands.



> Some of you will be incapable of hearing this.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> Guess you never heard of Russell's teapot analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russell's teapot - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Russell's teapot* is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of _disproof_ to others."
> 
> 
> 
> After reading your first sentence, I pretty much lost interest in your demands.


This is just your way of avoiding a discussion on long accepted definitions changing half way through a pandemic.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> This is just your way of avoiding a discussion on long accepted definitions changing half way through a pandemic.


Yes, the definition did change.  It wasn't secret and they even explained _why_ it changed..  But of course, since it doesn't jive with what _you_ believe, it _must_ be a conspiracy.

Why did the WHO change the definition of herd immunity

In my former work in public health, we often referred to herd immunity in terms of vaccine uptake. Not to say that disease exposure doesn't count for something, but exposing people to a disease that is potentially fatal (and/or has long-term health effects) is clearly NOT the ideal way to achieve herd immunity.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> How did I personally discredit you?  I pointed out the fallacy of the arguments made.  I didn’t nor did I ever say the court ruling was overturned.  Just that you misunderstood the actual court ruling.


You haven’t pointed out anything of substance.  Your core argument is Ponesse lacks credibility because she suggests there isn’t a pandemic.  I suggest she potentially formulates that opinion because she doesn’t trust the data stemming from PCR testing, and I’ve given an example to demonstrate where that may come from; medical publications and court cases related to PCR and how it’s been used.  I don’t know if she is right or wrong or whether the court rulings or the Lancet pub will survive.  But I’m not categorically ruling out her opinion.


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> This is just your way of avoiding a discussion on long accepted definitions changing half way through a pandemic.


What pandemic?


----------



## Brad Sallows

The thing about scientists is that they do not fall into two exact camps: those who are correct about everything they claim, and those who are incorrect.  More typically, each holds a mix of correct and incorrect views.  Correctly-held views are not proof of infallibility; incorrectly held views are not proof of uniform error.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> You haven’t pointed out anything of substance.  Your core argument is Ponesse lacks credibility because she suggests there isn’t a pandemic.  I suggest she potentially formulates that opinion because she doesn’t trust the data stemming from PCR testing, and I’ve given an example to demonstrate where that may come from; medical publications and court cases related to PCR and how it’s been used.  I don’t know if she is right or wrong or whether the court rulings or the Lancet pub will survive.  But I’m not categorically ruling out her opinion.


The fact that you say I haven’t pointed out anything of substance shows how closed minded you are being.  You prefaced this entire subject but saying only a few would have an open mind or hear what was being said.  The McGill article is not substance?  

I showed you that the ruling was about the legality of the test to be used as a tool to enforce a quarantine law (a Portuguese law)  given the alert level at the time. In November when the alert level did not allow for the law to enforce a quarantine based on that particular test.   There is nothing to overturn in that court ruling.  The judge didn’t invalidate the pcr test.  

So in Portuguese law, the test’s false positivity rate met that country’s threshold for reasonable doubt in regards to THE LAW in place as to the enforcement of a quarantine action as determined by their alert level at that time.

You quote one line in that lancet article as an argument about pcr test being innacurate. But have you read the whole thing?  

It does discuss false positives.  It also shows false negatives at a much higher rate.  You can figure out what that means in the larger context.

But it also is specific to the UK where Covid rates were lower thus making more  false positives as a result of their sample size.  And it offers solutions to help mitigate those false positives.

Your philosophy expert is wrong.  We are in a pandemic.  But I can see why you would think we may not be based on the information you had.  I provided you with some more.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Brad Sallows said:


> The thing about scientists is that they do not fall into two exact camps: those who are correct about everything they claim, and those who are incorrect.  More typically, each holds a mix of correct and incorrect views.  Correctly-held views are not proof of infallibility; incorrectly held views are not proof of uniform error.


Its almost like they use a  _concurrence_  model to come up with scientific fact. Many voices agreeing and disagreeing. Like that 1 dentist that doesn't agree chewing Trident gum helps prevent cavities.

Amazing that you can have dissent without it negating the many other opinions countering it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

About positives and false positives, a fairly simple explanation/example of what effect the latter have is here.  Just the sections "Anatomy of a Test" and "How Accurate Is The Test?" should be enough.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Amazing that you can have dissent without it negating the many other opinions countering it.



And useful.  Less useful is intolerance of dissent.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Scoobs said:


> I've spent 6 yrs of my life in academia (BEng, MSc) and it looks just like most professor's offices that I have been in.  What's your point?


Some people organize their office space to present an image of accomplishment or competency. Sometimes it's to demand respect. Candy dishes and family photos often impart hang around a while, flimsy or uncomfortable chairs, and files all over mean don't. That kind of stuff.

I found it interesting in her office that it looked like she stacked specific books on a dresser in the camera view but had others shoved in her bookcase. I wonder what those books were supposed to impart to the viewer if anything. Then again sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, right?

Regardless, I thought the video QV posted was interesting and I've watched it a couple of times. Ethics should be a huge topic.


A savage cultural practice hotline is bad - calling the police on your neighbors for covid concerns is good.
Politicians talk about following public health restrictions and supporting social distancing while they're on vacations down south.
The WHO looking like a big lapdog for China - our chief public health officer of Canada saying travel restrictions are racist.
People getting fines for walking their dog while the PM is getting photo ops in BLM protests.
Panic porn, especially in North America.
Doctors are experts and should be listened to (Tam) unless they're going against the grain (Conly).
Government using Covid to advance its agenda and try to shrug off parliamentary oversight.


----------



## OldSolduer

As a bit of a distraction the effects of this pandemic will affect us for a long time to come. If the restrictions were magically lifted tomorrow I do not think we'd go back to what we were pre pandemic at least not short term. 
The Great Depression and its effects are still with us today over 100 years later.


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> As a bit of a distraction the effects of this pandemic will affect us for a long time to come. If the restrictions were magically lifted tomorrow I do not think we'd go back to what we were pre pandemic at least not short term.
> The Great Depression and its effects are still with us today over 100 years later.


We had a town hall today at work and if and when we go back we were told we will not be going back to a pre pandemic work model.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

OldSolduer said:


> As a bit of a distraction the effects of this pandemic will affect us for a long time to come. If the restrictions were magically lifted tomorrow I do not think we'd go back to what we were pre pandemic at least not short term.
> The Great Depression and its effects are still with us today over 100 years later.


I'm not giving up my mask anytime soon....


----------



## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I'm not giving up my mask anytime soon....


I can hardly wait to ditch them - I do have some just in case. |I will wear them in businesses that ask to wear them. 
 Social distancing will be with us for a long time as will hand sanitizer etc and a paranoid obsession with cleanliness - which has been shown to weaken our immune systems. We do need a few germs to train the immune system.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

I look forward to seeing each other again! I also think that we should not come to work when we have symptoms of a communicable disease. Easier said by me in the public sector.  So perhaps we will adopt the wearing of masks when we feel a cold coming as something normal?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

When my wife was in emergency the other day, she had a lady beside her in agony from pains in the legs. The son said it started shortly after her vaccination and this was the 4th day, no information on which one though.


----------



## suffolkowner

I haven't read the Lancet article but from what I have read false positive must invariably be due to contamination. The false negatives have been an issue since the start due to the different variants and the small amount of DNA to be amplified (I believe it is only 25 bases long section coding for the spike protein).


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin Parkinson said:


> When my wife was in emergency the other day, she had a lady beside her in agony from pains in the legs. The son said it started shortly after her vaccination and this was the 4th day, no information on which one though.



I've gotten a number of vaccines over the years for tours and stuff and have never really heard of anyone having side effects. A number of people I know have gotten their 2nd moderna dose and it's dummied them for a few days.


----------



## Remius

My arm felt like I’d been hit by a truck.  Could barely raise it above elbow height.  Lasted the night then was fine in the morning.  Was Pfizer.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> My arm felt like I’d been hit by a truck.  Could barely raise it above elbow height.  Lasted the night then was fine in the morning.  Was Pfizer.


I've had all the childhood and post-retirement vaccinations. As well as the mandated ones, including flu, during my working years.

Got AZ #1 on 23 March. No side effects at all.

Except the one you mentioned. Felt like she used a Louisville Slugger on my left shoulder.

My mother and wife said they had no side effects, or shoulder pain.

Guess I can tolerate anything. Except pain.  



TangoTwoBravo said:


> I look forward to seeing each other again!


I look forward to our next pensioners luncheon. On the other hand, it will be sad when we pause to remember those we will not be seeing again.

We will also pause remember the First Responders who remained on street operations around the clock, while we stayed safe at home.


----------



## QV

Well let’s all hope Dr. Byram Bridle is wrong with what he states on On Point with Alex Pierson. The discussion starts 1:20 in.  






						New peer reviewed study on COVID-19 vaccines suggests why heart inflammation, blood clots and other dangerous side effects occur - ON Point 640 Toronto
					

Alex talks with Dr. Byram Bridle, an Associate Professor on Viral Immunology at the University of Guelph about new peer-reviewed studies that suggests there may be a reason side effects such as heart inflammation, VITT, and other serious issues may occur in some who have been vaccinated.   Let's...




					omny.fm


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> Well let’s all hope Dr. Byram Bridle is wrong with what he states on On Point with Alex Pierson. The discussion starts 1:20 in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New peer reviewed study on COVID-19 vaccines suggests why heart inflammation, blood clots and other dangerous side effects occur - ON Point 640 Toronto
> 
> 
> Alex talks with Dr. Byram Bridle, an Associate Professor on Viral Immunology at the University of Guelph about new peer-reviewed studies that suggests there may be a reason side effects such as heart inflammation, VITT, and other serious issues may occur in some who have been vaccinated.   Let's...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> omny.fm


So basically the same as almost any medication you see advertised on American TV


----------



## OceanBonfire

Vietnam detects hybrid of Indian and UK COVID-19 variants
					

Authorities in Vietnam have detected a new coronavirus variant that is a combination of the Indian and UK COVID-19 variants and spreads quickly by air, the health minister said on Saturday.




					www.reuters.com
				






> ...
> 
> Long said Vietnam would soon publish genome data of the newly identified variant, which he said was more transmissible than the previously known types.
> 
> ...



Son of a... ARGH!


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So basically the same as almost any medication you see advertised on American TV


I’ve never heard the statement “we made a big mistake” with the use of Tylenol or the shingles vaccine, but hey if that is how you understand what he’s saying have at it.

I’m not going to argue with any of you the merits of Dr. Bridle‘s findings.  I’ve simply presented new information from a credentialed source.  Do what you want with it.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> I’ve never heard the statement “we made a big mistake” with the use of Tylenol or the shingles vaccine, but hey if that is how you understand what he’s saying have at it.
> 
> I’m not going to argue with any of you the merits of Dr. Bridle‘s findings.  I’ve simply presented new information from a credentialed source.  Do what you want with it.


It’s making the media rounds but they have yet to see if there is a direct link due to the numbers of teens and young adults getting vaccines.  So they aren’t sure if it is a coincidence or not at this time.  And it seems the numbers are quite low for now.  And the inflammations are minor in nature.


----------



## PMedMoe

From Twitter: He is quoting a study that does proves vaccines do exactly what they were supposed to do, what is his agenda?

Ultrasensitive blood test detects viral protein, confirms mRNA vaccine activates robust immune response


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> We had a town hall today at work and if and when we go back we were told we will not be going back to a pre pandemic work model.



My employer is looking at making work from home permanent where feasible- we have major issues with office space and a relatively new HQ that lacks the room for everything they want to put in it. A lot of our people can work remotely, with access as needed to shared work and meeting spaces. Some of us routinely work with sensitive material and need to come to the office, but that’s a small portion. I wouldn’t want to be heavily invested in office real estate.



Remius said:


> My arm felt like I’d been hit by a truck.  Could barely raise it above elbow height.  Lasted the night then was fine in the morning.  Was Pfizer.



I got Pfizer 2 fifteen minutes ago. Fingers crossed for tomorrow. I felt kinda gross after number one...


----------



## CBH99

I JUST got Pfizer #2 about 20 minutes ago here, logged on and boom...you beat me to it.  I didn't have a single issue with #1, so here's for hoping with #2


----------



## Weinie

CBH99 said:


> I JUST got Pfizer #2 about 20 minutes ago here, logged on and boom...you beat me to it.  I didn't have a single issue with #1, so here's for hoping with #2


Got my second shot of Moderna on Tuesday. No problems at all. My wife got hers yesterday, chills all night, and feeling woozy.


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:


> Got my second shot of Moderna on Tuesday. No problems at all. My wife got hers yesterday, chills all night, and feeling woozy.


Proof, Weinie, that you have always been out standing in your own field......

😉


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> My employer is looking at making work from home permanent where feasible- we have major issues with office space and a relatively new HQ that lacks the room for everything they want to put in it. A lot of our people can work remotely, with access as needed to shared work and meeting spaces. Some of us routinely work with sensitive material and need to come to the office, but that’s a small portion. I wouldn’t want to be heavily invested in office real estate.



I've seen a bunch of places move to a work-from-home model, I'm still on the fence if it's better or worse. In one call to VAC it sounded like the women was in the kitchen making lunch with the TV on in the background while talking to me. Other people are impossible to get a hold of.  One DND member I was trying to reach had an out-of-office reply that they weren't answering the phone in the mornings because of homeschooling and only answering emails Wednesday from 0900-1200. Impossible to reach on the phone and didn't even have voice mail set up. 

On the other hand..

Probably not happening as much civilian side but military wise I've heard a lot of complaints (and seen myself) that some CoC's will start messaging people early in the morning or well after supper. I've had a couple 8pm or later "Can you check something on monitor mass for me?" or similar texts.  Working from home makes it a lot harder to leave work at work.


----------



## Weinie

Good2Golf said:


> Proof, Weinie, that you have always been out standing in your own field......
> 
> 😉


I only offered love and commiseration to her, or I would have been in my own (mine)field.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> Probably not happening as much civilian side but military wise I've heard a lot of complaints (and seen myself) that some CoC's will start messaging people early in the morning or well after supper. I've had a couple 8pm or later "Can you check something on monitor mass for me?" or similar texts.


From what I have read on here, that sort of thing has been going on for years.








						Ordered "to get a phone" / Contact Information [Merged]
					

Good thing there wasn't a war that required full mobilization to start on one those weekends to inconvenience you...   Come on, 99% of the weekend phone calls are for bogus events.  We all know that if shit starts going down on a Saturday that we can expect to be contacted.   However we do have...




					army.ca
				





> Working from home makes it a lot harder to leave work at work.


Has working from home made leaving work at work easier, or harder, ( when off duty )?


----------



## Remius

I will say working from home has made it easier to deal with home stuff while at work.


----------



## QV

"I would probably prefer to have natural immunity" — Viral Immunologist
					

Dr Byram Bridle (Viral Immunologist) shares his preference for naturally acquired immunity, instead of "narrow" immunity conferred by the vaccine.




					dryburgh.com
				




In depth on vaccines with Dr. Bridle.  This is from February this year and it’s very lengthy.  But if you wanted to learn more about vaccines specifically to our COVID situation, this is it.  

One quote from near the end:  “We’ll document this as the greatest mismanaged crisis of our time.”


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well fortunately we aren't well practiced at global crisis......i like that.


----------



## medic5

Here's a student's perspective on online learning, if anyone is interested. 

For context I'm in the TDSB, Grade 10, in Virtual Secondary School which is the school that everyone who selected online learning in September 2020 got put in, roughly 20,000 students total. Anyone who picked online learning after the first quadmester still remained with their home school just in an online setting, whereas those who picked virtual school from the start were completely separated from their home school. 

Most people I've talked to don't like online school at all, seems like the lack of social interaction seems to be a big part of it. The whole quadmester structure is rather hated too, one of my friends even wrote an opinion article in the Star about it here if anyone is interested.

I'm one of the few people that actually like online school, it is ridiculously easy and consumes no time whatsoever. I would guess as a Grade 10 student I'm getting probably 4 hours of instruction total per day, with maybe 30 minutes of work? Complete joke, much of the curriculum is not being taught at all. Attendance seems to be lacking, out of my class of 27, I've never seen more than 20 people in my class, mostly hovering around 15-17. 

I don't even think it is right to call it a class, it really is more of just listening to your teacher talk for the whole period. No cameras, no required microphones, one could probably just join their class and go do something else and teachers would have no way to tell. Even with all this, course medians are roughly 5-10% lower than last year, at least from what I can see.


----------



## CBH99

QV said:


> "I would probably prefer to have natural immunity" — Viral Immunologist
> 
> 
> Dr Byram Bridle (Viral Immunologist) shares his preference for naturally acquired immunity, instead of "narrow" immunity conferred by the vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dryburgh.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In depth on vaccines with Dr. Bridle.  This is from February this year and it’s very lengthy.  But if you wanted to learn more about vaccines specifically to our COVID situation, this is it.
> 
> One quote from near the end:  “We’ll document this as the greatest mismanaged crisis of our time.”


Probably a fair statement.  And unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's perspective) - the finger absolutely can't be pointed in one direction, or at one particular decision-making body, as I _personally_ believe the crisis was mismanaged from the very start.

In that statement, I don't mean the WHO.  (Although I am absolutely not letting them off the hook, but in regards to this post.)


*This crisis was mismanaged in several ways, but hopefully we can consider it an excellent learning opportunity.  *

We now have a very good understanding of what lockdowns do, and do not, accomplish.  We have learned lessons about being able to quickly study the molecular structure of a virus using scientific methods never previously available, and being able to design/test/distribute mass vaccines to combat the new threat.  Etc, etc.

We have also been sharply reminded that the media is there to sell advertising space, in order to generate income.  It is not there to give you the unbiased, cold facts as we all believed (at one point in our lives) that their only interest was in accurately informing the public.  We've been reminded that the media does present a very real potential danger to the public when it chooses to use a situation such as this to distribute misinformation, and can be an excellent ally if they choose to keep things as accurate as possible.

We've also been reminded that stable jobs aren't necessarily as stable as you think they are, and stable investments aren't anywhere near as stable as one may think.  (Commercial real estate sector, feel free to crash on que).  


A mismanaged crisis?  Absolutely.  Partially unavoidable, due to the new nature of a virus we hadn't previously been exposed to.  But the absolute stupidity of our political leaders absolutely contributed to the crisis getting worse before it got better, and prolonging it.  (Just my humble opinion.)

But, like I said - mismanaged crisis?  Yes.  Learning opportunity?  Yes.  Hopefully the next time something happens like this, it will be handled with the lessons from this crisis learned and already applied.  

0.02


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> In depth on vaccines with Dr. Bridle.  This is from February this year and it’s very lengthy.  But if you wanted to learn more about vaccines specifically to our COVID situation, this is it.


If Dr Bridle would rather have natural immunity, then he is free to go out and get COVID.  I'll take the vaccine.

And as for your source, Dryburgh.com, all I can say is   

"Lee S. Dryburgh is a person-to-person communications technologist."  Whatever _that _means.

Lee S. Dryburgh


----------



## CBH99

PMedMoe said:


> "Lee S. Dryburgh is a person-to-person communications technologist."  Whatever _that _means.


Right??  Like can we all just start making up random job titles for ourselves??   I’d like tone a technologist too 🙏🏻


----------



## Remius

I’m not sure that the term person to person communications technologist is made up.

I am in no way lending any credence to that site,  but Mr. Dryburgh seems to have an engineering background in telecommunications and specialises in person to person communications like mobile and cell phones.  And has done some work with major telcos.


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> I’m not sure that the term person to person communications technologist is made up.
> 
> I am in no way lending any credence to that site,  but Mr. Dryburgh seems to have an engineering background in telecommunications and specialises in person to person communications like mobile and cell phones.  And has done some work with major telcos.


I'm not saying his job title is made up, but he's not the person whose website I'd go to for COVID/vaccine info.


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:


> I'm not saying his job title is made up, but he's not the person whose website I'd go to for COVID/vaccine info.


I don’t disagree.  But we can still be careful about people’s qualifications.  In fact those things are very important when looking at the veracity and or credibility of people making certain claims.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Dr. Byram Bridle is a vaccine expert (Associate Professor of Viral Immunology) whose lab research into vaccines has been supported by the Canadian government. Even if he's on InfoWars or MadTV he probably has relevant info to speak to.


----------



## mariomike

Bloggers are entertaining, if they are one's preferred source of news, I suppose.

Guess I'm old-fashioned, but I wonder how many Canadians still actually subscribe to a newspaper?








						Top 10 Canadian Newspapers
					

List of the top 10 Canadian print newspapers by circulation compiled by Agility PR Solutions' media research team. 1. Financial Post, 2. Toronto Star, 3. La Presse




					www.agilitypr.com


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Dr. Byram Bridle is a vaccine expert (Associate Professor of Viral Immunology) whose lab research into vaccines has been supported by the Canadian government. Even if he's on InfoWars or MadTV he probably has relevant info to speak to.


He does a very good job of explaining the vaccines and how they work.  And then he loses credibility (with me) by going on to say "There was no way that we would reasonably have good, well-vetted COVID-19 vaccines available now and available within a year from the beginning of the pandemic." and "COVID-19 vaccines have reached the public rollout phase by, and I’ll say it in quotes, 'cutting corners'."

And THB, I do appreciate his criticism of the vaccine rollout.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Guess I'm old-fashioned, but I wonder how many Canadians still actually subscribe to a newspaper?


Probably a lot of climate change deniers who don't care about cutting down trees to provide them with 3 minutes of distraction and then adding to  landfil sites


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> PMedMoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> He does a very good job of explaining the vaccines and how they work.  And then he loses credibility (with me) by going on to say "There was no way that we would reasonably have good, well-vetted COVID-19 vaccines available now and available within a year from the beginning of the pandemic." and "COVID-19 vaccines have reached the public rollout phase by, and I’ll say it in quotes, 'cutting corners'."
> 
> And THB, I do appreciate his criticism of the vaccine rollout.
Click to expand...

Yes.  And he is also developing its own vaccine. Which may be why he is being critical of the competition.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-guelph-vaccine-study-covid-19-1.5578787


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> Yes.  And he is also developing its own vaccine. Which may be why he is being critical of the competition.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/university-guelph-vaccine-study-covid-19-1.5578787


Shocking!  Not.

At least we know what his agenda is.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> Probably a lot of climate change deniers who don't care about cutting down trees to provide them with 3 minutes of distraction and then adding to  landfil sites


Newspapers are digital now.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Newspapers are digital now.


That doesn't seem very old fashioned  I refuse to buy EBooks, which is neither here nor there.


----------



## Altair

OceanBonfire said:


> Vietnam detects hybrid of Indian and UK COVID-19 variants
> 
> 
> Authorities in Vietnam have detected a new coronavirus variant that is a combination of the Indian and UK COVID-19 variants and spreads quickly by air, the health minister said on Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Son of a... ARGH!


We will not be fully safe until the entire world has this beat. 

The chance that a mutation develops that can beat the vaccines may yet screw everything up. 

While we must focus on safeguarding our people, we must also ensure the rest of the world catches up.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> The chance that a mutation develops that can beat the vaccines may yet screw everything up.


Chance mutation coincidentally discovered up the road from the Wuhan Institute of Virology?


----------



## CBH99

Not to take away from what was mentioned above.  Just thinking out loud...

One thing that has made this ‘challenge’ different than other challenges of a similar nature is our ability to look at the virus, identify what it’s made out of, how it works, etc etc in a way that has never been previously possible.  

My father has been a Biologist his entire career (worked for Environment Canada for ages) and has since consulted with various zoos on animal health issues.

He isn’t a virus expert by any means.  But he did explain that part of the ‘sped up process’ to me.... we can see with high tech microscopes today, what even a few years ago would have taken a month or more to see.  We can also identify not just what it is but how it works in days or weeks rather than months.

Emergency approvals were welcome, albeit long term effects is anybody’s guess.  

But part of what sped up the vaccines was our ability to quick get to know the virus in a way that previously would have possibly taken months.  (not just skipping the paperwork wait)


----------



## ModlrMike

What your describing is an extension of Moore's Law, but applied to virology. Effectively, the state of technology doubles every year.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If you ban air travel, the chances of the variants travelling quickly are reduced significantly.


----------



## RangerRay

I got Pfizer #1 a few weeks ago. The next day, I had full blown flu symptoms. Even the next day, I was only at 80%. I had heard afterwards that if you got the shot within a few months of catching the ‘vid (as I did) that it can knock you on your ass. It never came up in my pre screening though.

Looking forward to #2!


----------



## CBH99

I’ve heard that from a few people who got the vaccine shortly after getting over a head cold or such.  Knocked each one of them down for about a week.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> Dr. Byram Bridle is a vaccine expert (Associate Professor of Viral Immunology) whose lab research into vaccines has been supported by the Canadian government. Even if he's on InfoWars or MadTV he probably has relevant info to speak to.



There's apparently enough concern about his claims that a website has been created to counter various parts of his misinformation (specifically on vaccines and spike proteins), with scholarly sources cited.





__





						Byram Bridle
					





					byrambridle.com


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> There's apparently enough concern about his claims that a website has been created to counter various parts of his misinformation (specifically on vaccines and spike proteins), with scholarly sources cited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Byram Bridle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> byrambridle.com


On Twitter some of his peers were not too happy with his claims.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> On Twitter some of his peers were not too happy with his claims.


That’ll happen.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> There's apparently enough concern about his claims that a website has been created to counter various parts of his misinformation (specifically on vaccines and spike proteins), with scholarly sources cited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Byram Bridle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> byrambridle.com



The possible pitfall of an appeal to authority.

It's nice to see professionals willing to call each other out on misinformation.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> The possible pitfall of an appeal to authority.
> 
> It's nice to see professionals willing to call each other out on misinformation.


Nothing new with that in this pandemic. Unfortunately a few of Bridle’s claims are spreading like wildfire on social media. He has done real damage.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Shocking!  Not.
> 
> At least we know what With this kind of thinking it’s no wonder the CAF finds itself unable to think its way through a pistol replacement or tackling sexual misconduct.





brihard said:


> There's apparently enough concern about his claims that a website has been created to counter various parts of his misinformation (specifically on vaccines and spike proteins), with scholarly sources cited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Byram Bridle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> byrambridle.com


Who authored that website?  It seems nameless... that’s odd.  Bridle went public with his theories, courageous. He’s credentialed and states he has the science to back his claims.  Let’s give him a chance. 

It’s far too onerous for a layperson like me to go through each point, but let’s just do the very first line from that salacious website, regarding Bridle‘s statements about spike proteins this journal supports it: 









						SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein and Lung Vascular Cells
					

Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) is causing the current pandemic of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), and COVID-19 vaccines focus on its spike protein. However, in addition to facilitating the membrane fusion and viral entry, the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein promotes...




					www.mdpi.com
				




7. COVID-19 vaccines currently under consideration, including RNA vaccines (BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273) [36,37,38], viral vector-based vaccines (AZD1222 and Ad26.COV2.S) [39,40], and recombinant protein (NVX-CoV2373) [41], all introduce the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein into the human body.

8. This analysis suggests that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and HIV gp120 have the capacity to trigger cell biological events that may lead to the development of pulmonary vascular remodeling and, perhaps, clinically significant PAH, a fatal condition. Given the observations that cells sensitively respond to the spike protein at pM concentrations in cultured cells [10], it is likely that the SARS-CoV-2 *spike protein not only facilitates the viral entry and serves to acquire immunity as an antigen for vaccines but, also, targets host cells and may exert adverse effects *(Figure 4). Further experiments should be performed to address the possible effects of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein on developing PAH. The effects of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein on the cells of other tissues/organs, such as those of the systemic vasculature, heart, and brain, should also be investigated. *Given that this protein will be administered as vaccines to millions and possibly billions of people, it is critical to understand the extracellular and intracellular effects of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein on human cells that may promote long-term adverse health consequences.*

There are also other publications or articles that support Bridle‘s positions, such as in BMJ.


----------



## Good2Golf

According to the CDC, Bridle is wrong.  

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

mRNA vaccines do not inject the SARS Cov-2 spikeprotein into the body.  They inject genetic instructions to cells to build their own spike protein whose surface appears externally similar to the SARS Cov-2 virus without the internal viral behavior, that causes the body’s immune system to create antibodies targeted against like-shaped proteins in the future (including any real SARS Cov-2).

Once credentialed doesn’t mean always right....and in Bridle’s case means...wrong.

Regards
G2G


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Who authored that website?  It seems nameless... that’s odd.


It's as legitimate as Dryburgh.com


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> According to the CDC, Bridle is wrong.
> 
> Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> mRNA vaccines do not inject the SARS Cov-2 spikeprotein into the body.  They inject genetic instructions to cells to build their own spike protein whose surface appears externally similar to the SARS Cov-2 virus without the internal viral behavior, that causes the body’s immune system to create antibodies targeted against like-shaped proteins in the future (including any real SARS Cov-2).
> 
> Once credentialed doesn’t mean always right....and in Bridle’s case means...wrong.
> 
> Regards
> G2G


The general theme is if it goes against the issued narrative, attack the credibility of the author just as Dr. Ponesse and Dr. Bridle were here by a handful of you. We should be looking at all of this and challenging everything until it can’t be challenged anymore.


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> The general theme is if it goes against the issued narrative, attack the credibility of the author just as Dr. Ponesse and Dr. Bridle were here by a handful of you. We should be looking at all of this and challenging everything until it can’t be challenged anymore.


...but we aren’t allowed to challenge all facts...including Bridle’s inaccuracies, when it inconveniently counters QV’s “you all need to challenge more...” agenda. 😆 

Got it. 🙄


----------



## PMedMoe

Good2Golf said:


> ...but we aren’t allowed to challenge all facts...including Bridle’s inaccuracies, when it inconveniently counters QV’s “you all need to challenge more...” agenda. 😆
> 
> Got it. 🙄


Yep.


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> ...but we aren’t allowed to challenge all facts...including Bridle’s inaccuracies, when it inconveniently counters QV’s “you all need to challenge more...” agenda. 😆
> 
> Got it. 🙄


My apologies if that is how you understand my position, I haven’t been clear enough.  Here is my position:  we don’t know the long term consequences of these vaccines yet, there are other scientific hypothesis’s emerging we should look at, we should exercise caution with a mass rollout of said vaccines and only focus on those “at risk” groups.


----------



## Good2Golf

So what subset of society is “at risk?”  How is “at risk” quantified?  Who qualifies the “at risk” classification?


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> So what subset of society is “at risk?”  How is “at risk” quantified?  Who qualifies the “at risk” classification?


Those are all fairly easily answered at this point by examining who has died, when, how, and from what.  Groups not at significant risk are healthy children and young adults.  So pushing the EAU vaccines to those groups seems risky and wasteful, particularly since we are uncertain about long term consequence.  Hilarious that this position is at all controversial.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> My apologies if that is how you understand my position, I haven’t been clear enough.  Here is my position:  we don’t know the long term consequences of these vaccines yet, there are other scientific hypothesis’s emerging we should look at, we should exercise caution with a mass rollout of said vaccines and only focus on those “at risk” groups.


It does come off that way though when it runs counter to your position.  What you just posted makes sense.  But when one scientist posts something and it gets rebutted it has nothing to do with burying the info or marginalising the OP.  It’s about accurate info.  Both sides get it wrong.  But I’ve noticed when one side gets it wrong it fesses up and shifts but when the other gets it wrong it seems to entrench itself even more.

Dr. ponesse said we were not in a pandemic. It has been pointed out how wrong that is but somehow that is attacking her credibility because her position runs counter to the narrative?  I would posit it actually runs counter to reality as well.

As for Dr. Bridle if I wanted to attack his credibility I could have mentioned that he’s a part of the faculty of Veternarian sciences at Guelph.  But that doesn’t negate his background in viral immunology and the lab he runs.  But why is it wrong to question his motivations given that he is competing with (and behind) other vaccine developments and using the same science he claims might be a risk?  Some of are actually using your logic when it comes to his claims.


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Those are all fairly easily answered at this point by examining who has died, when, how, and from what.  Groups not at significant risk are healthy children and young adults.  So pushing the EAU vaccines to those groups seems risky and wasteful, particularly since we are uncertain about long term consequence.  Hilarious that this position is at all controversial.



Hilarious indeed!    (not)

Baby who died in January is B.C.'s youngest COVID-19 victim, officials say

COVID-19 claims teenager's life

COVID-19 claims Ottawa's youngest victim yet


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> It does come off that way though when it runs counter to your position.  What you just posted makes sense.  But when one scientist posts something and it gets rebutted it has nothing to do with burying the info or marginalising the OP.  It’s about accurate info.  Both sides get it wrong.  But I’ve noticed when one side gets it wrong it fesses up and shifts but when the other gets it wrong it seems to entrench itself even more.
> 
> Dr. ponesse said we were not in a pandemic. It has been pointed out how wrong that is but somehow that is attacking her credibility because her position runs counter to the narrative?  I would posit it actually runs counter to reality as well.
> 
> As for Dr. Bridle if I wanted to attack his credibility I could have mentioned that he’s a part of the faculty of Veternarian sciences at Guelph.  But that doesn’t negate his background in viral immunology and the lab he runs.  But why is it wrong to question his motivations given that he is competing with (and behind) other vaccine developments and using the same science he claims might be a risk?  Some of are actually using your logic when it comes to his claims.


If you are questioning his motives then you need to question all motives.  What interest would those who have supported mRNA vaccines to this point have if it was later determined the long term side effects were horrible for our youth (the second and third order effects of that potential nightmare hasn’t been thought, out loud, anyway)?  What about present financial implications, who’s making money on what? You could probably go down a number of rabbit holes with this approach.  

I’m personally all for theorizing lots of crazy shit, but some folks get upset with “conspiracy theories” and stick hard to the official lines and any deviation is heresy.


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> Hilarious indeed!    (not)
> 
> Baby who died in January is B.C.'s youngest COVID-19 victim, officials say
> 
> COVID-19 claims teenager's life
> 
> COVID-19 claims Ottawa's youngest victim yet


Without playing in to the emotion because of course any death is terrible, but do we have numbers of babies and kids who have died *of* COVID19 with no co-morbidity, and are those numbers of any statistical significance?  I’ve read kids under 10 have a greater chance of dying from influenza.


----------



## Good2Golf

It would seem not.  The most recent data I could find comes from France, but identifies pediatric morbidity of COVID to be higher than influenza.

Comparison of the characteristics, morbidity, and mortality of COVID-19 and seasonal influenza: a nationwide, population-based retrospective cohort study. (The Lancet, Dec 2020)


> After stratification by age (figure 1, appendix pp 5–6), the proportion of patients in the ICU was significantly higher in the COVID-19 group than in the influenza group for patients younger than 18 years and those aged 61 to 80 years. By contrast, the proportion of patients in the ICU was lower in the COVID-19 group than in the influenza group for patients older than 80 years. In patients older than 50 years and younger than 18 years, in-hospital mortality was higher in the COVID-19 group than the influenza group.


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> It would seem not.  The most recent data I could find comes from France, but identifies pediatric morbidity of COVID to be higher than influenza.
> 
> Comparison of the characteristics, morbidity, and mortality of COVID-19 and seasonal influenza: a nationwide, population-based retrospective cohort study. (The Lancet, Dec 2020)


And here is an interesting twist:  “By contrast, the proportion of patients in the ICU was lower in the COVID-19 group than in the influenza group for patients older than 80 years.”


----------



## mariomike

Not sure what the policy is here in Canada?

Welcome to NY where 'any patient who arrived at a hospital with their own ventilator could have it taken away for another person in desperate need.' Yes, NY hospitals can take your personal ventilator away even if you need it and give it to someone else.
https://gothamist.com/news/pandemic-threatened-their-ventilators-will-ny-officials-change-course-next-crisis…


----------



## mariomike

RangerRay said:


> I got Pfizer #1 a few weeks ago. The next day, I had full blown flu symptoms. Even the next day, I was only at 80%. I had heard afterwards that if you got the shot within a few months of catching the ‘vid (as I did) that it can knock you on your ass. It never came up in my pre screening though.
> 
> Looking forward to #2!


Hope you are feeling better, Ranger Ray.

I got AZ#1. But, now they say we might be getting something else for the second dose.

I survived mixing Tequila shots with Vodka shots, so I guess this is no biggie.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:


> Not sure what the policy is here in Canada?
> 
> Welcome to NY where 'any patient who arrived at a hospital with their own ventilator could have it taken away for another person in desperate need.' Yes, NY hospitals can take your personal ventilator away even if you need it and give it to someone else.
> https://gothamist.com/news/pandemic-threatened-their-ventilators-will-ny-officials-change-course-next-crisis…



The "guidelines" (not a directive) that the NY task force published made reference to (and discussed) an Ontario report that they studied as part of developing their own triage guidelines.



			https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/default/files/public/php/21/21_report.pdf


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> Hope you are feeling better, Ranger Ray.
> 
> I got AZ#1. But, now they say we might be getting something else for the second dose.
> 
> I survived mixing Tequila shots with Vodka shots, so I guess this is no biggie.


NACI seems to have cracked the code in providing solid, consistent advice.


----------



## daftandbarmy

QV said:


> Without playing in to the emotion because of course any death is terrible, but do we have numbers of babies and kids who have died *of* COVID19 with no co-morbidity, and are those numbers of any statistical significance?  I’ve read kids under 10 have a greater chance of dying from influenza.



Dude... do you hate kids that much?

I just had to ask.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> The general theme is if it goes against the issued narrative, attack the credibility of the author just as Dr. Ponesse and Dr. Bridle were here by a handful of you. We should be looking at all of this and challenging everything until it can’t be challenged anymore.


I thought I would share this opinion from another bioethicist.  



			https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-may-31-2021-1.6046642/mandating-vaccines-at-universities-could-set-dangerous-precedent-says-bioethicist-1.6047417
		


I thought her arguments were well presented and argued.  If I contrast it to Dr. Ponesse, who while making some good points when she stuck to her field of expertise, strayed out of her lanes on the science and declared her opinion that we were not in a pandemic.

Professor Ravitsky seems far more credible in conveying her concerns.


----------



## QV

daftandbarmy said:


> Dude... do you hate kids that much?
> 
> I just had to ask.


What kind of asinine question is this?  That's right, attack the person not the problem.  And nobody in this outfit can figure out how to replace an 80 yr old pistol or stamp out misconduct.  Carry tf on then.


----------



## Jarnhamar

QV said:


> And nobody in this outfit can figure out how to replace an 80 yr old pistol or stamp out misconduct.  Carry tf on then.


In all fairness, I completely figured both out.


----------



## Infanteer

Why are people focusing on the boogyman of long-term effects of vaccination?  We've been vaccinating people since Edward Jenner's demonstration of smallpox vaccination in 1796.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Infanteer said:


> Why are people focusing on the boogyman of long-term effects of vaccination?  We've been vaccinating people since Edward Jenner's demonstration of smallpox vaccination in 1796.



I know people, educated professionals, who believe in the micro-chip conspiracy theory and will not get vaccinated. Seriously. 

These are also people who think that all doctors are idiots (they know way more about medical stuff) and as long as they pay attention to everything they learned about 'gut biome' and genetic editing in those last podcasts they listened to, they'll be fine. At least one of them has been 'cancelled' by their doctor because they won't follow the doctor's orders, of course.

I try to avoid standing too close to these people, but we can still make fun of them:


Is this a microchip off the old block situation?









						As Covid-19 Vaccine Microchip Conspiracy Theories Spread, Here Are Responses On Twitter
					

Why use “knock knock” jokes, when there are now a whole host of Covid-19 vaccine microchip one-liners that you can now “inject” into your conversations.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## ModlrMike

You mean those people who come to see me in ER and when I tell them what's going on they respond with "you're wrong"?


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Infanteer said:


> Why are people focusing on the boogyman of long-term effects of vaccination?  We've been vaccinating people since Edward Jenner's demonstration of smallpox vaccination in 1796.



Firstly, because these are not vaccinations the same was as Edward Jenner's smallpox vaccine ... Coronavirus vaccines use new, never-before-approved technology ... in the case of the Pfizer vaccine, for example, it is a form of genetic treatment that, instead of injecting a small inert bit of the virus, injects mRNA. Also, not all vaccines are the same -- different ingredients, different process, etc ... therefore you need testing. There's a reason why the fastest any vaccine has gone to market previously was the better part of a decade. Now we have a "vaccine" in less than a year.

Credible experts cited by mainstream media (apparently the litmus test for reliability) were warning last year than an 18 month timeline would be dangerously fast.  Just as one example: The timetable for a coronavirus vaccine is 18 months. Experts say that's risky

Yes, these same experts are apparently silent now, and there are other experts saying there's nothing to worry about. But I don't think it makes you a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist to have reservations based on what was being said in March 2020.

Also, considering that there have been more deaths due to COVID-19 vaccines according to VAERS in only a few months, than all other vaccines going back to 1989, it seems that concerns about long-term consequences are not unwarranted. This data can be found by doing a search on VAERS - Data 

According to my searches on that system, about 4000 Americans have died as a result of adverse reaction to COVID-19 vaccines. This is a small % of those that have received it, but a much higher % than other vaccines, plus we are still in very early days. Again, it's not unreasonable to be concerned that those numbers could go up given that we simply don't know what the long-term results may be since the vaccines haven't been around long enough.


----------



## Infanteer

mRNA vaccines aren't the only ones out there.  But if you want to focus on them, mRNA vaccines have been studied for decades, so it is not like this is something that was pulled out of a garage laboratory.  And while the method for achieve immunization is different (stimulating a response vice setting up practice dummy), the outcome is the same.  Has anyone pointed to a realistic "bad" outcome that is in the realm of reality (e.g. 50% of people receiving vaccines will die, or have some sort of immune system failure, 5 years after getting an mRNA vaccine)?


----------



## PMedMoe

I believe I may have posted this before, but mRNA vaccines have been in the development stage for years: "The first report of the successful use of _in vitro_ transcribed (IVT) mRNA in animals was published in 1990, when reporter gene mRNAs were injected into mice and protein production was detected"

mRNA vaccines — a new era in vaccinology - published January 2018

"While an mRNA vaccine has never been on the market anywhere in the world, mRNA vaccines have been tested in humans before, for at least four infectious diseases: rabies, influenza, cytomegalovirus, and Zika."

A primer on the history, scope, and safety of mRNA vaccines and therapeutics

I'd be leery about the information you get from VAERS since anyone can report on it. It even says on its main page: "While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary,       which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind."

"Data from the Vaers database shows there were 4,434 reports of death from Covid-19 vaccines through May 10, but that doesn’t mean 4,434 people died from a vaccine: Vaers is designed to allow anyone to report an event, meaning the data is unverified and may be explained by other factors. "

The Truth Behind Tucker Carlson’s Claims About Covid-19 Vaccine Deaths And The Government’s VAERS Database

I'd be willing to bet that anti-vaxxers/conspiracy theorists are flooding VAERS with fake reports.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Infanteer said:


> mRNA vaccines aren't the only ones out there.  But if you want to focus on them, mRNA vaccines have been studied for decades, so it is not like this is something that was pulled out of a garage laboratory.  And while the method for achieve immunization is different (stimulating a response vice setting up practice dummy), the outcome is the same.  Has anyone pointed to a realistic "bad" outcome that is in the realm of reality (e.g. 50% of people receiving vaccines will die, or have some sort of immune system failure, 5 years after getting an mRNA vaccine)?



50% of people need to die to be considered a realistic bad outcome?

The lockdowns et al. were justified by a 0.2% death rate from COVID-19; therefore I would suggest that a similar death rate versus 50% would constitute a very bad outcome.

That said, we don't have enough data because of the scant testing. Essentially the vaccine trails for the COVID-19 vaccines is occurring worldwide on the general population. We'll have an idea of the outcomes in a few years. 

Even then we'll probably never know since it seems that anything suggesting the vaccines aren't totally safe is written-off out-of-hand as conspiracy theorists makings stuff up. So it will be impossible to know the truth.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

PMedMoe said:


> I'd be willing to bet that anti-vaxxers/conspiracy theorists are flooding VAERS with fake reports.



That's pure speculation. I'm not aware of any evidence supporting your theory.


----------



## ModlrMike

Even if we are to take the 4434 number at face value, the risk is negligible. With 1.9B [1] global vaccinations, it works out to 0.0002% rate of death. the global death rate after contracting Covid19 is 2.15% [2] So, you are 10000 times more likely to die from the disease than the immunization. I don't know about you, but I'm not keen on those odds. If option B is 10000 times worse than option A, I know which one I'm choosing.

1. Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
2. Cumulative confirmed COVID-19 deaths


----------



## TheHead

Here's the problem with misrepresenting the 4000 deaths claim from the VAERS database.  VAERS is a user submitted data base that specifically states the reports do no imply causality. 4000 people have not died from the vaccine.  4000 unverified  deaths have have been reported to VAERs that may be explained by other factors.  Unfortunately a valuable resource like VAERS is being misinterpreted by bad faith actors like Tucker Carlson and prominent anti-vaxxers to sow fear about a vaccine that is one of our only hopes of safely getting out of this pandemic.

Going to add a quote from the CDC website and lastly a quote from someone much smarter than I am. 









						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				





> "Over 285 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through May 24, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 4,863 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports*. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths. * Get the latest safety information on the J&J/Janssen vaccine. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS."





> Vaers “is simply a system for people to report bad things that happen to them after vaccination, whether or not those events are caused by the vaccine,” Dr. William Moss, executive director of the International Vaccine Access Center at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, told _Forbes_.


----------



## Infanteer

LittleBlackDevil said:


> 50% of people need to die to be considered a realistic bad outcome?



E.g. = exempli gratia.  Just throwing a bone out there.

What I was really getting at was is there any actual hypothesis about long term effects based on (1) historical results from previous immunization efforts or (2) understanding about how mRNA technology affects the body?  Is there any data for these that could present some sort of odds of a catastrophic outcome?  Or is it simply a bunch of "we don't know the long term effects, and that's that", and we sit around hoping the Black Swan doesn't arrive?

I'm asking because I want to understand where the thesis is going.  If it simply ends at "we don't know the long term effects", well, we don't know the long term effects of space travel, bluetooth headsets, or a lot of different things.


----------



## PMedMoe

LittleBlackDevil said:


> That's pure speculation.


Yes it is. But they are certainly cherry-picking the data.


----------



## QV

Infanteer said:


> E.g. = exempli gratia.  Just throwing a bone out there.
> 
> What I was really getting at was is there any actual hypothesis about long term effects based on (1) historical results from previous immunization efforts or (2) understanding about how mRNA technology affects the body?  Is there any data for these that could present some sort of odds of a catastrophic outcome?  Or is it simply a bunch of "we don't know the long term effects, and that's that", and we sit around hoping the Black Swan doesn't arrive?
> 
> I'm asking because I want to understand where the thesis is going.  If it simply ends at "we don't know the long term effects", well, we don't know the long term effects of space travel, bluetooth headsets, or a lot of different things.


Well, you could give Dr. Byram Bridle's interviews a listen to... there are new scientific hypothesis emerging suggesting there are potential problems.  So mass injecting children this early could later be determined a bad idea... you can always get vaccinated, you can't get unvaccinated.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Infanteer said:


> E.g. = exempli gratia.  Just throwing a bone out there.
> 
> What I was really getting at was is there any actual hypothesis about long term effects based on (1) historical results from previous immunization efforts or (2) understanding about how mRNA technology affects the body?  Is there any data for these that could present some sort of odds of a catastrophic outcome?  Or is it simply a bunch of "we don't know the long term effects, and that's that", and we sit around hoping the Black Swan doesn't arrive?
> 
> I'm asking because I want to understand where the thesis is going.  If it simply ends at "we don't know the long term effects", well, we don't know the long term effects of space travel, bluetooth headsets, or a lot of different things.



I can't speak on behalf of others who are concerned/hesistant about the COVID-19 vaccines.

From my own perspective, it is simply we have no data/knowledge of what the long-term effects or or even what the true percentage of short-term adverse effects are. It is my understanding that simply because one vaccine is safe, that doesn't mean that all subsequent vaccines for different diseases will be safe. My wife used to work for a vaccine manufacturing company and she has described to me a rather involved process for vaccines to be approved and that each has its own "formula". Some vaccines have different "ingredients" than others do, and this is why we have trials for all new vaccines rather than simply approving them because vaccines for other diseases were safe.

Many of these safeguards and processes were skipped in the interests of getting COVID-19 vaccines to market quickly. I think this raises legitimate concerns because for me not tested doesn't mean safe. It means unknown which means could be safe, could be unsafe.


----------



## Infanteer

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Many of these safeguards and processes were skipped in the interests of getting COVID-19 vaccines to market quickly. I think this raises legitimate concerns because for me not tested doesn't mean safe. It means unknown which means could be safe, could be unsafe.


What safeguards and processes were skipped?


----------



## ModlrMike

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Many of these safeguards and processes were skipped in the interests of getting COVID-19 vaccines to market quickly. I think this raises legitimate concerns because for me not tested doesn't mean safe. It means unknown which means could be safe, could be unsafe.


No, no, and no!

Short version:

The vaccines were built on mRNA technology that was developed over the last 20 years. Scientists have been studying coronavirus for the last 40 years, and already knew what mechanism to target. Funding was not an issue as governments threw money at the problem. Clinical trials were conducted in an overlapping fashion, but over the same total time-span, and there was no shortage of volunteers.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Thank you gentlemen, I will look into the sources cited by @ModlrMike . In my own research to answer @Infanteer 's question I realized that the standard procedures for approving vaccines are actually a lot less than I thought they were based on my wife's experience. I guess the company she worked for was just more careful and that's possibly why they went bankrupt. So I'm going to look into the topic some more. It seems like things were rushed rather than skipped.

Long term effects remain unknown. It would not be unprecedented for approved drugs/vaccines to be unsafe (thinking of Thalidomide for example) so I don't think people are completely nuts to still have doubts given the "warp speed" of this process.


----------



## QV

ModlrMike said:


> No, no, and no!
> 
> Short version:
> 
> The vaccines were built on mRNA technology that was developed over the last 20 years. Scientists have been studying coronavirus for the last 40 years, and already knew what mechanism to target. Funding was not an issue as governments threw money at the problem. Clinical trials were conducted in an overlapping fashion, but over the same total time-span, and there was no shortage of volunteers.


Well except the phase III part of the trials.  That phase hasn't yet been conducted.  Here is a link describing the four phases of trials.









						Clinical Trial Phases: What Happens in Phase 0, I, II, III, and IV
					

Every wonder how new medical treatments are evaluated for safety? Most go through a multiphase clinical trial. Learn what happens during each phase.




					www.healthline.com
				




What happens in phase II?
Phase II of a clinical trial involves several hundred participants who are living with the condition that the new medication is meant to treat. They’re usually given the same dose that was found to be safe in the previous phase.
Investigators monitor participants for several months or years to see how effective the medication is and to gather more information about any side effects it might cause.
While phase II involves more participants than earlier phases, *it’s still not large enough to demonstrate the overall safety of a medication*. However, the data collected during this phase helps investigators come up with methods for conducting phase III.
*The FDA estimates that about 33 percent Trusted Sourceof medications move on to phase III.*
What happens in phase III?​Phase III of a clinical trial usually involves up to 3,000 participants who have the condition that the new medication is meant to treat. Trials in this phase can last for several years.
The purpose of phase III is to evaluate how the new medication works in comparison to existing medications for the same condition. To move forward with the trial, investigators need to demonstrate that the medication is at least as safe and effective as existing treatment options.
To do this, investigators use a process called randomization. This involves randomly choosing some participants to receive the new medication and others to receive an existing medication.
Phase III trials are usually double-blind, which means that neither the participant nor the investigator knows which medication the participant is taking. This helps to eliminate bias when interpreting results.
The FDA usually requires a phase III clinical trial before approving a new medication. Due to the larger number of participants and longer duration or phase III, rare and long-term side effects are more likely to show up during this phase.
If investigators demonstrate that the medication is at least as safe and effective as others already on the market, the FDA will usually approve the medication.
Roughly 25 to 30 percentTrusted Source of medications move on to phase IV.


----------



## PMedMoe

Actually, Pfizer and BioNTech concluded phase 3 study in November 2020: Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate

Also see: Vaccine Testing and the Approval Process


----------



## PMedMoe

Looks like mRNA will be useful for more than COVID: Now proven against coronavirus, mRNA can do so much more


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Looks like mRNA will be useful for more than COVID: Now proven against coronavirus, mRNA can do so much more


That sounds very promising.  If they can cure cancer with an mRNA vaccine, it would be earth shattering.


----------



## lenaitch

daftandbarmy said:


> I know people, educated professionals, who believe in the micro-chip conspiracy theory and will not get vaccinated. Seriously.
> 
> These are also people who think that all doctors are idiots (they know way more about medical stuff) and as long as they pay attention to everything they learned about 'gut biome' and genetic editing in those last podcasts they listened to, they'll be fine. At least one of them has been 'cancelled' by their doctor because they won't follow the doctor's orders, of course.
> 
> I try to avoid standing too close to these people, but we can still make fun of them:
> 
> 
> Is this a microchip off the old block situation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Covid-19 Vaccine Microchip Conspiracy Theories Spread, Here Are Responses On Twitter
> 
> 
> Why use “knock knock” jokes, when there are now a whole host of Covid-19 vaccine microchip one-liners that you can now “inject” into your conversations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com



People have it all wrong.  It's not microchips . . . it's people.  There are entire invading armies floating around in our veins waiting to sproing.


(Fantastic Voyage)

😁


----------



## daftandbarmy

That's an interesting snowball. At least Canada isn't right in the bull's eye....


Visualizing the Snowball of Government Debt in 2021​
As we approach the second half of 2021, many countries around the world are beginning to relax their COVID-19 restrictions.


And while this signals a return to normalcy for much of the global economy, there’s one subject that’s likely to remain controversial: *government debt*.


To see how each country is faring in the aftermath of an unprecedented global borrowing spree, this graphic from HowMuch.net visualizes debt-to-GDP ratios using April 2021 data from the International Monetary Fund (IMF).
















						Visualizing the Snowball of Government Debt
					

After an unprecedented borrowing spree in response to COVID-19, what does government debt look like around the world?




					www.visualcapitalist.com


----------



## CBH99

Conspiracy theory time!!  (Your welcome, and I'm sorry)

Honest question, curious to hear the variety of answers that possibly come up.



National debt for most countries has always been sky-high, and every year, most countries end up in more & more debt.  Covid-19 amplified that enormously, to the tune that most countries will now have a deficit in the hundreds of billions of dollars (just this year alone.)

*Question - does anybody else feel like the global 'system' works in such a way that countries are supposed to be in debt?* 

Also, I personally find it 'puzzling' when people talk about the subject of an increasing national debt.  People often say "If we don't curb spending, our kids will be paying for this debt!"

a) Will they though?  Canada has had a hefty debt ever since I was born, and I don't feel like I've personally had to pay any of it off.  I pay taxes, which in turn pays for essentials such as police, healthcare, paved roads, government services, etc etc.  I feel like I would be paying these taxes regardless of whether Canada had a large national debt or not.

b)  Even if we stopped spending one extra cent of money we don't have, how on earth would we begin to pay down hundreds of billions of debt?


I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist, but...I have a weird feeling in the back of my mind that this money will NEVER be repaid, hence why governments all over the world don't mind borrowing/spending it.  🤷‍♂️ 

0.02


----------



## PMedMoe

Mods, can we split this off into another thread (if deemed necessary)?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> b)  Even if we stopped spending one extra cent of money we don't have, how on earth would we begin to pay down hundreds of billions of debt?



Balanced budget, inflation, and time.  People tolerate inflation better than they tolerate deflation, so the people concerned with managing these things aim for a small range of inflation.  Over time, it erodes the value of debt.  (Canada's accumulated deficit was about $20B in 1970 - how long would it take us to pay that off now?)  So stop deficit spending (or minimize it below rate of revenue growth), and be patient.

The COVID-induced economic problems are not a textbook case of recession.  Notwithstanding the necessity of pushing money out the door to fill in the gaps for people and businesses in dire straits and provide for other extraordinary demands, many people have continued working without spending (as much).  There is a large amount of accumulated income held by the people of most (certainly most of the advanced) nations.  As COVID restrictions ease, spending will accelerate.  Since people will be returning to work, or starting new work to take advantage of that increasing spending, production will rise.  But if production doesn't rise fast enough to soak up spending (if supply grows more slowly than demand), price inflation may (should) result.

Governments will be (have been, are) looking at ways to use COVID as an excuse to do other things on their honey-do lists.  For the rest of us, it's worth thinking about things we did during COVID that would be useful permanent habits, and spending a little money disaster-proofing ourselves.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Balanced budget, inflation, and time.  People tolerate inflation better than they tolerate deflation, so the people concerned with managing these things aim for a small range of inflation.  Over time, it erodes the value of debt.  (Canada's accumulated deficit was about $20B in 1970 - how long would it take us to pay that off now?)  So stop deficit spending (or minimize it below rate of revenue growth), and be patient.
> 
> The COVID-induced economic problems are not a textbook case of recession.  Notwithstanding the necessity of pushing money out the door to fill in the gaps for people and businesses in dire straits and provide for other extraordinary demands, many people have continued working without spending (as much).  There is a large amount of accumulated income held by the people of most (certainly most of the advanced) nations.  As COVID restrictions ease, spending will accelerate.  Since people will be returning to work, or starting new work to take advantage of that increasing spending, production will rise.  But if production doesn't rise fast enough to soak up spending (if supply grows more slowly than demand), price inflation may (should) result.
> 
> Governments will be (have been, are) looking at ways to use COVID as an excuse to do other things on their honey-do lists.  For the rest of us, it's worth thinking about things we did during COVID that would be useful permanent habits, and spending a little money disaster-proofing ourselves.



And, post pandemic, demand for Canada's raw materials will skyrocket. We're already making record revenues from timber etc.

I assume the economists et al have done the arithmetic on that and, as a result, are less worried than they might be otherwise.


----------



## CBH99

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/simon-bernard-dany-fortin-vaccine-phac-1.6053246
		



Mods, feel free to move where needed.  While somewhat related to the bigger picture of the senior brass under investigation, this didn’t fit the Sexual Misconduct thread.


----------



## CBH99

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/b1617-canada-covid-19-vaccines-1.6053976
		



For those who have only had their first dose, I would recommend getting their 2nd as soon as possible.  (I had my second dose of Pfizer last week, haven’t had any reactions to either dose.)

Our “closed border” that still allows dozens of international flights to land each day, and has allowed since this all began — has done a predictable job of keeping foreign variants out.

(Even with a GIGANTIC moat around the country, ocean sized... the government still somehow couldn’t actually close the border... 😫🤦🏼‍♂️)


----------



## CBH99

Question - is there any difference between the first and second dose, if both doses are the same vaccine?  

Is volume injected different?  Any tweaks that make them each distinct?


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:


> Question - is there any difference between the first and second dose, if both doses are the same vaccine?
> 
> Is volume injected different?  Any tweaks that make them each distinct?



Exactly the same.  But needing two (or more) initial doses of a vaccine to achieve best available protection is not unusual.  Just a quick look through my yellow book reminds me of the three doses of rabies vaccine and a couple of varieties of hepatitis vaccines and a few other odd ones that needed two doses in the initial series not to mention the boosters that were needed at varying times.  Covid-19 vaccine may likely slide into the same category as flu vaccines, recommended for yearly booster.  The business plans of most of the big pharmaceutical players are already counting on that for growth; there are a few that are developing combined flu/covid products.


----------



## ModlrMike

My daughter and I were talking about this a few weeks ago. She opined that at some point, we may have an annual "Fluvid" vaccine.


----------



## RangerRay

A long but interesting article on how the lab leak theory was dismissed and now gaining steam again.  

From one of the more “progressive” outlets so it can’t be excused as fluffing for nationalists and other bigots. 









						The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins
					

Throughout 2020, the notion that the novel coronavirus leaked from a lab was off-limits. Those who dared to push for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## CBH99

Clearly I am no virologist, and have no academic background in anything related to the field.  My opinion is just my own humble, admittedly uneducated.  

But the lab-leak theory is what I, and most of my social circle, assumed when this whole thing first began.  


What sounds more believable?

- A sample of this virus escaped from the lab in Wuhan.  Not deliberately, but it did.  Perhaps it somehow survived decontamination, or perhaps a worker was just complacent & skipped a step.  But somehow, a sample of the virus escaped the lab, and rapidly spread among the population.

- Some guy bought a bat, and consumed it as part of a meal.  And instead of him getting a stomach virus, or something in the intestines, it somehow ended up in his lungs - went airborne whenever he spoke or breathed - and subsequently, millions upon millions of people died.  Shut the entire world down.  


Again, I’m not a scientist.  But the idea that a sample of this somehow escaped the lab (which conveniently studied coronaviruses) is probably the theory I feel like the media should have initially ran with.  

0.02


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

That anyone who even dare suggest that it might have came from the lab was vilified in the press just goes to show the absolute control the CCP has on our way of communication. 

Colour me shallow but I am taking lots of satisfaction hearing the dead quiet coming from some folks on social platforms.  Quick to call people racist to suit their position,  but not so quick to puree that crow so the beaks and claws are easier to swallow.


----------



## CBH99

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> That anyone who even dare suggest that it might have came from the lab was vilified in the press just goes to show the absolute control the CCP has on our way of communication.


Not trying to derail this mods, as I know a lot of the chatter about Covid origins could easily end up in the China thread.  

But how does the CCP control our national media?  Why would CBC, Global, etc ‘go with the narrative they are told to’ when it comes to China?  China doesn’t fund their budgets?

(Actually asking — I have no doubt you are correct.  I’m just trying to piece it into the bigger picture)



I don’t understand why the media vilified anybody who suggested it escaped from the lab nearby which - conveniently enough - studied coronaviruses.  It’s certainly a reasonable theory that deserved to be investigated.
It isn’t racist or inappropriate to question its origin, or suggest an alternative when the origin story is perhaps the less likely option.  A virus that has killed this many people, affected several times more, and completely changed the picture of many families, businesses - affected the education timeline of millions of students, etc etc.

Asking reasonable questions is never a bad thing.  I feel it’s scary, frustrating, and quite telling when an entity (the CCP) throws the racism card when asked a question it doesn’t like.


----------



## ModlrMike

$650,000,000


----------



## Brad Sallows

> But the idea that a sample of this somehow escaped the lab (which conveniently studied coronaviruses) is probably the theory I feel like the media should have initially ran with.



For outbreaks, the prudent way to bet is natural origin.  But everyone's thinking was inflected by the existence of President Donald J Trump, so natural origin couldn't merely be the overwhelmingly likely hypothesis, it had to be the only one.  So as the balance of probabilities of the competing two hypotheses (natural:lab) has shifted from, say, 99:1 to something closer to parity or to a preponderance on the other side, some of the early absolutism looks particularly bad, especially that which came from people who are supposed to be objective or are supposed to be in the business of providing information.


----------



## CBH99

ModlrMike said:


> $650,000,000


Is this what we, or the US, owe China?  Hence our media reporting the Chinese narrative rather than asking questions?


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> For outbreaks, the prudent way to bet is natural origin.  But everyone's thinking was inflected by the existence of President Donald J Trump, so natural origin couldn't merely be the overwhelmingly likely hypothesis, it had to be the only one.  So as the balance of probabilities of the competing two hypotheses (natural:lab) has shifted from, say, 99:1 to something closer to parity or to a preponderance on the other side, some of the early absolutism looks particularly bad, especially that which came from people who are supposed to be objective or are supposed to be in the business of providing information.


No doubt that people’s distrust in the former president had a part to play as well as that side’s politisation of COVID.  He flipped flopped so many times it isn’t a wonder.  Going from praise to outright belligerence with them. The last two sars outbreaks were natural in origin so following the normal pattern it would seem logical.   However given China’s track record on transparency it could and should have been assumed that maybe a lab leak is a possibility.   The issue also gets muddled with the yet unproven proposition that it was purposefully released.


----------



## ModlrMike

This is the sum our government bribed the mainstream media with. 

In all seriousness though, this was no more than a knee-jerk reaction to comments made on the subject by DJT. The media immediately branded him a racist for his remarks, and championed that he was wrong. I'm not saying he's correct, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even if he's proven right, there will be no crows placed in danger.

Then there's Bryan Adams and others being branded racists for suggesting that the wet markets were the source. CCP appeasement comes in many forms.


----------



## ModlrMike

Remius said:


> The issue also gets muddled with the yet unproven proposition that it was purposefully released.


Purposeful release seems less likely. What seems more likely is that one or more workers contracted a novel flu from sloppy practices, which led to escape, and infection of the greater population of Wuhan.


----------



## Remius

ModlrMike said:


> Purposeful release seems less likely. What seems more likely is that one or more workers contracted a novel flu from sloppy practices, which led to escape, and infection of the greater population of Wuhan.


Yeah.  That was the point I was making.  Some people assumed “purposeful” with the lab leak.  So of course it would have been brushed aside as a theory even the the suggestion was that it was likely an accident or neglect.


----------



## CBH99

ModlrMike said:


> This is the sum our government bribed the mainstream media with.
> 
> In all seriousness though, this was no more than a knee-jerk reaction to comments made on the subject by DJT. The media immediately branded him a racist for his remarks, and championed that he was wrong. I'm not saying he's correct, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even if he's proven right, there will be no crows placed in danger.
> 
> Then there's Bryan Adams and others being branded racists for suggesting that the wet markets were the source. CCP appeasement comes in many forms.


Gosh I hate that segment of modern society, that turns EVERY SINGLE ISSUE into something to do with racial or gender discrimination.  I find, for me anyway, it really lowers the threshold to a dangerously low level when anything/everything is labelled racism, when it clearly isn't.


----------



## ModlrMike

Evidence mounts?

Unlikely genome sequencing evidence that COVID-19 originally leaked from a lab, two U.S. experts say​Two experts asserted in the Wall Street Journal that the genetic footprint of COVID-19 has never been seen in a naturally occurring coronavirus.

More from FP


----------



## blacktriangle

Lab leak (intentional or otherwise) -  how shocking! Not. It will be interesting to see what the final verdict is.

And to anyone on here that had completely dismissed that possibility of a lab leak without having access to the raw data to either support or refute the claim, well let's just say I really hope you aren't in any position of influence in this country...


----------



## Weinie

reveng said:


> Lab leak (intentional or otherwise) -  how shocking! Not.* It will be interesting to see what the final verdict is.*
> 
> And to anyone on here that had completely dismissed that possibility of a lab leak without having access to the raw data to either support or refute the claim, well let's just say I really hope you aren't in any position of influence in this country...


There will be evidence presented, and accusations, which are already occurring. Final verdict, if reached, will be characterized as yet another Western anti-Chinese diatribe, both by the Chinese and those "useful idiots" in the West.

I concur with your assessment, the evidence increasingly points to a lab leak. How the West and others outside of China's sphere of influence deals with this will be interesting to monitor.


----------



## Loachman

Weinie said:


> I concur with your assessment, the evidence increasingly points to a lab leak.



Or the world's most enormous coincidence ever, which is far more doubtful than the simpler explanation.


----------



## Loachman

CBH99 said:


> Not trying to derail this mods, as I know a lot of the chatter about Covid origins could easily end up in the China thread.
> 
> But how does the CCP control our national media?  Why would CBC, Global, etc ‘go with the narrative they are told to’ when it comes to China?  China doesn’t fund their budgets?



China pays large sums to Western media agencies to spread its viewpoint (ie "propaganda"), and also has its own agencies operating in the US (and elsewhere).

From Part III of https://efile.fara.gov/docs/3457-Supplemental-Statement-20210524-34.pdf, one example of the latter:

China Daily Distribution Cor. (DBA China Daily USA) publishes China Daily Global Edition on behalf of China Daily and facilitates the publication of informational and advertorial materials in U.S. media. China Daily USA also produces coverage about the U.S. for publication in China Daily's flagship edition in China.

During this 6 month reporting period, has the registrant received from any foreign principal named in Items 7, 8, or 9 ofthis statement, or from any other source, for or in the interests of any such foreign principal, any contributions, income or money either as compensation or otherwise? 

Yes 0 No □ If no, please explain why no monies were received. ("Yes" was checked)

and

During this 6 month reporting period, has the registrant received any thing of value other than money from any foreign principal named in Items 7, 8, or 9 of this statement, or from any other source, for or in the interests of any such foreign principal?

Yes 0 No □ If yes, furnish the following information: Foreign Principal China Daily Date Received Continual From Whom China Daily Purpose Publication of Newspaper Thing of Value Exclusive right to distribute China Daily newspaper in the United States

From Part V

During this 6 month reporting period, has a budget been established or specified sum of money allocated to finance the registrant's activities in preparing or disseminating informational materials? Yes IEI No □ If yes, identify each such foreign principal, and specify the period of time and the amount. Foreign Principal Period of Time Amount China Daily 11/01/2020-04/30/2021 *$5,355,946.57*

They also operate a number of social media accounts (from the same source):

• Facebook accounts
China Daily New York, Log into Facebook
China Daily Houston, https://www.facebook.com/ChinaDailvHouston/
China Daily Los Angeles, Log into Facebook
China Daily San Francisco, Log into Facebook
China Daily Boston, Log into Facebook
China Daily Washington DC, Log into Facebook
China Daily Seattle, Log into Facebook
China Daily Chicago, Log into Facebook
China Daily Atlanta, Log into Facebook
• Twitter account
China Daily USA, https://twitter.com/ChinaDailyUS

Also Chinese Propaganda Outlet Has Paid US Newspapers $19 Million For Advertising, Printing

I have been subscribed to Laowhy86 on Youtube for quite some time. He is an American who lived in China for about a decade (if I remember correctly) and married a Chinese girl. He and his wife were forced to flee when the situation deteriorated under Xi, and several of his ex-pat friends did as well. At least one of them, a South African, also has a Youtube channel (SerpentZA). They both know the Two Michaels.

Lots of good insights into life, culture, and politics in China - both the good and the increasing bad.


----------



## Loachman

An unlikely genome sequence is evidence that COVID-19 leaked from a lab, two U.S. experts say
					

Two experts asserted in the Wall Street Journal that the genetic footprint of COVID-19 has never been seen in a naturally occurring coronavirus




					nationalpost.com


----------



## QV

Martin Kulldorf has a lot to say about the handling of the pandemic: 








						Why I spoke out against lockdowns
					

Martin Kulldorff on the necessity of challenging the Covid consensus.




					www.spiked-online.com
				




Turns out we have pretty robust immune systems with respect to COVID:


			https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Interesting we are starting to suspect my wife might be a Covid long hauler, which would explain a lot. However both times she went into emergency they never tested her and now we will have to go to one of two covid testing stations. Her sister inlaw who is a doctor in Malaysia was shocked that the hospital did not test for Covid upon entry, that is the SOP for Malaysia and many other countries. It seems that here in BC they are not overly keen on testing, lest it upsets the rosy picture.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Loachman said:


> China pays large sums to Western media agencies to spread its viewpoint (ie "propaganda"), and also has its own agencies operating in the US (and elsewhere).
> 
> From Part III of https://efile.fara.gov/docs/3457-Supplemental-Statement-20210524-34.pdf, one example of the latter:
> 
> China Daily Distribution Cor. (DBA China Daily USA) publishes China Daily Global Edition on behalf of China Daily and facilitates the publication of informational and advertorial materials in U.S. media. China Daily USA also produces coverage about the U.S. for publication in China Daily's flagship edition in China.
> 
> During this 6 month reporting period, has the registrant received from any foreign principal named in Items 7, 8, or 9 ofthis statement, or from any other source, for or in the interests of any such foreign principal, any contributions, income or money either as compensation or otherwise?
> 
> Yes 0 No □ If no, please explain why no monies were received. ("Yes" was checked)
> 
> and
> 
> During this 6 month reporting period, has the registrant received any thing of value other than money from any foreign principal named in Items 7, 8, or 9 of this statement, or from any other source, for or in the interests of any such foreign principal?
> 
> Yes 0 No □ If yes, furnish the following information: Foreign Principal China Daily Date Received Continual From Whom China Daily Purpose Publication of Newspaper Thing of Value Exclusive right to distribute China Daily newspaper in the United States
> 
> From Part V
> 
> During this 6 month reporting period, has a budget been established or specified sum of money allocated to finance the registrant's activities in preparing or disseminating informational materials? Yes IEI No □ If yes, identify each such foreign principal, and specify the period of time and the amount. Foreign Principal Period of Time Amount China Daily 11/01/2020-04/30/2021 *$5,355,946.57*
> 
> They also operate a number of social media accounts (from the same source):
> 
> • Facebook accounts
> China Daily New York, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Houston, https://www.facebook.com/ChinaDailvHouston/
> China Daily Los Angeles, Log into Facebook
> China Daily San Francisco, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Boston, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Washington DC, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Seattle, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Chicago, Log into Facebook
> China Daily Atlanta, Log into Facebook
> • Twitter account
> China Daily USA, https://twitter.com/ChinaDailyUS
> 
> Also Chinese Propaganda Outlet Has Paid US Newspapers $19 Million For Advertising, Printing
> 
> I have been subscribed to Laowhy86 on Youtube for quite some time. He is an American who lived in China for about a decade (if I remember correctly) and married a Chinese girl. He and his wife were forced to flee when the situation deteriorated under Xi, and several of his ex-pat friends did as well. At least one of them, a South African, also has a Youtube channel (SerpentZA). They both know the Two Michaels.
> 
> Lots of good insights into life, culture, and politics in China - both the good and the increasing bad.


Yes I quite enjoy their videos, also ADVChina


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> Interesting we are starting to suspect my wife might be a Covid long hauler, which would explain a lot. However both times she went into emergency they never tested her and now we will have to go to one of two covid testing stations. Her sister inlaw who is a doctor in Malaysia was shocked that the hospital did not test for Covid upon entry, that is the SOP for Malaysia and many other countries. It seems that here in BC they are not overly keen on testing, lest it upsets the rosy picture.


I hope your wife feels better soon, Colin.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:


> An unlikely genome sequence is evidence that COVID-19 leaked from a lab, two U.S. experts say
> 
> 
> Two experts asserted in the Wall Street Journal that the genetic footprint of COVID-19 has never been seen in a naturally occurring coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Interesting.

I know an NSERC-awarded genetic microbiological engineer who received their DSc at L’Institue de Chimie Biologique Louis Pasteur and has been working in RNA throughout a number of microbiological sub-disciplines over the last 35 years, including virology, currently teaching and researching at a leading European university, who pointed out to me at least two factual errors in the logic of Quay and Muller’s case that put it in question: 1) restrictive genome patterns are mirror images, thus should be CGG-GGC, not CGG-CGG, and secondly, the possible protein patterns is not 36, but 4096 (ie. 4 ^ 6, four different amino acids per position, six position - basic statistical probability stuff).

Based on that alone, I will personally give Quay and Muller a pass.  Others of course, are free to believe or discount as they see fit.

Regards
G2G


----------



## QV

Study shows hydroxychloroquine treatments increased coronavirus survival rate by almost three times
					

A new study shows that the controversial drug hydroxychloroquine touted by former President Donald Trump increased the survival rate of severely ill coronavirus patients.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




Is this true or fake news?  If true, what does this mean for the agencies that shut it down in the beginning?


----------



## Loachman

Colin Parkinson said:


> Yes I quite enjoy their videos, also ADVChina


ADVChina is Winston Sterzel and another fellow named, I think, Tye. Winston's other channel on Youtube is SerpentZA. They are also linked to Laowhy86, the channel that I previously mentioned. I don't have time to watch half of the stuff that I want, so concentrate on Laowhy86 and an occasional SerpentZA video.


----------



## Loachman

Good2Golf said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I know an NSERC-awarded genetic microbiological engineer who received their DSc at L’Institue de Chimie Biologique Louis Pasteur and has been working in RNA throughout a number of microbiological sub-disciplines over the last 35 years, including virology, currently teaching and researching at a leading European university, who pointed out to me at least two factual errors in the logic of Quay and Muller’s case that put it in question: 1) restrictive genome patterns are mirror images, thus should be CGG-GGC, not CGG-CGG, and secondly, the possible protein patterns is not 36, but 4096 (ie. 4 ^ 6, four different amino acids per position, six position - basic statistical probability stuff).
> 
> Based on that alone, I will personally give Quay and Muller a pass.  Others of course, are free to believe or discount as they see fit.
> 
> Regards
> G2G


There is a lot of conflicting information and expert opinion around, and no easy way to sort out what is right or wrong.

But that is science - opposing theories and their eventual validation or elimination, followed by the rise of new theories.

"Consensus" is unscientific. Suppression of opposing theories by media and politicians, and self-protective cover-up, is unhealthy.

And then there is the possibility that the Wall Street Journal reporter simply misquoted. Many media errors and inaccuracies are innocent mistakes. Most reporters cover a large variety of topics and cannot reasonably be expected to be an expert in, or have the time and ability to understand even a small part of, any particular one. Some are irretrievably biased and plain wrong, but most are doing their level best.

I have often e-mailed reporters and columnists to gently point out innocent errors or provide more insight, and frequently been thanked.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Is this true or fake news?  If true, what does this mean for the agencies that shut it down in the beginning?


Small study, observational only and not peer reviewed.

A clinical trial by NIH showed no benefit: Hydroxychloroquine does not benefit adults hospitalized with COVID-19

And an article in The Lancet stated "available evidence does not support the use of this medication in the prevention or treatment of COVID-19."
Hydroxychloroquine in the prevention of COVID-19 mortality

Just remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Oh, and the day I take advice (medical or otherwise) from the likes of Trump, MTG or Twitter will be a very cold day in hell.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:


> There is a lot of conflicting information and expert opinion around, and no easy way to sort out what is right or wrong.
> 
> But that is science - opposing theories and their eventual validation or elimination, followed by the rise of new theories.
> 
> "Consensus" is unscientific. Suppression of opposing theories by media and politicians, and self-protective cover-up, is unhealthy.
> 
> And then there is the possibility that the Wall Street Journal reporter simply misquoted. Many media errors and inaccuracies are innocent mistakes. Most reporters cover a large variety of topics and cannot reasonably be expected to be an expert in, or have the time and ability to understand even a small part of, any particular one. Some are irretrievably biased and plain wrong, but most are doing their level best.
> 
> I have often e-mailed reporters and columnists to gently point out innocent errors or provide more insight, and frequently been thanked.


Like I said, free to take or discount information as you choose.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I concur with your assessment, the evidence increasingly points to a lab leak. How the West and others outside of China's sphere of influence deals with this will be interesting to monitor.



Best political principle to follow is "fix problem, not blame".  Agree to new moratoria and standards, and to sanctions to be placed against those who do not follow.  Set a (short - weeks, months) grace period for countries to comply before applying the latter.  Then execute.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:


> Current Best political principle to follow is "fix problem, not blame".  Agree to new moratoria and standards, and to sanctions to be placed against those who do not follow.  Set a (short - weeks, months) grace period for countries to comply before applying the latter.  Then execute.


FTFY.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Small study, observational only and not peer reviewed.
> 
> A clinical trial by NIH showed no benefit: Hydroxychloroquine does not benefit adults hospitalized with COVID-19
> 
> And an article in The Lancet stated "available evidence does not support the use of this medication in the prevention or treatment of COVID-19."
> Hydroxychloroquine in the prevention of COVID-19 mortality
> 
> Just remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
> 
> Oh, and the day I take advice (medical or otherwise) from the likes of Trump, MTG or Twitter will be a very cold day in hell.











						Observational Study on 255 Mechanically Ventilated Covid Patients at the Beginning of the USA Pandemic
					

Introduction This observational study looked at 255 COVID19 patients who required invasive mechanical ventilation (IMV) during the first two months of the US pandemic. Through comprehensive, longitudinal evaluation and new consideration of all the data, we were able to better describe and...




					www.medrxiv.org
				




The observations study shows significant promise.  And one of the authors is engaged in comments at the bottom, very interesting.  

Oh and PMedMoe don't worry Trump wasn't a part of it, only infectious disease experts.


----------



## ModlrMike

I thought the current political principle was "fix blame, not problem".


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> The observations study shows significant promise.  And one of the authors is engaged in comments at the bottom, very interesting.


I still stand by what I said; prevention is better than a cure.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:


> There is a lot of conflicting information and expert opinion around, and no easy way to sort out what is right or wrong.
> 
> But that is science - opposing theories and their eventual validation or elimination, followed by the rise of new theories.
> 
> "Consensus" is unscientific. Suppression of opposing theories by media and politicians, and self-protective cover-up, is unhealthy.
> 
> And then there is the possibility that the Wall Street Journal reporter simply misquoted. Many media errors and inaccuracies are innocent mistakes. Most reporters cover a large variety of topics and cannot reasonably be expected to be an expert in, or have the time and ability to understand even a small part of, any particular one. Some are irretrievably biased and plain wrong, but most are doing their level best.
> 
> I have often e-mailed reporters and columnists to gently point out innocent errors or provide more insight, and frequently been thanked.


If you like the flavour of nefarious dealings related to viruses and who was involved, when, where and with whom, there's always the nexus of the PLA and agents/researchers of the CCP operating within Canada's highest-classified National Microbiology Lab.  Interesting that Canada was sending Ebola and other viruses directly to the Wuhan Institute of Virology back in 2019...

Whereabouts of two scientists fired from Winnipeg virus lab for possible national-security issues shrouded in mystery

Imagine if there was ever a causal link developed between NML and WIV related to SARS-CoV2? 🤔


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> If you like the flavour of nefarious dealings related to viruses and who was involved, when, where and with whom, there's always the nexus of the PLA and agents/researchers of the CCP operating within Canada's highest-classified National Microbiology Lab.  Interesting that Canada was sending Ebola and other viruses directly to the Wuhan Institute of Virology back in 2019...
> 
> Whereabouts of two scientists fired from Winnipeg virus lab for possible national-security issues shrouded in mystery
> 
> Imagine if there was ever a causal link developed between NML and WIV related to SARS-CoV2? 🤔





			'Wake-up call for Canada': Security experts say case of 2 fired scientists could point to espionage
		


And another article on the subj.


----------



## QV

What do you all make of this?

Research for impact | E-BMC 
Urgent Yellow Card Report: https://b3d2650e-e929-4448-a527-4ee...d/593c4f_b2acdef3774b4e9ca06e9fae526fd5cd.pdf

_"The MHRA now has more than enough evidence on the Yellow Card system to declare the COVID-19 vaccines unsafe for use in humans. Preparation should be made to scale up humanitarian efforts to assist those harmed by the COVID-19 vaccines and to anticipate and ameliorate medium to longer term effects"_

If this is true we (the world) have big problems, if it isn't true then should the authors have big legal problems?


God damn the world is full of crazy shit right now.


----------



## Loachman

I eagerly await the results of an investigation into that (the NML) affair. It should not have taken this long.

Perhaps the Liberals are still stuck trying to find a way to blame that Evil Harper.


----------



## ModlrMike

They'll just drop the "R" word, and that will end the discussion.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> _"The MHRA now has more than enough evidence on the Yellow Card system to declare the COVID-19 vaccines unsafe for use in humans. Preparation should be made to scale up humanitarian efforts to assist those harmed by the COVID-19 vaccines and to anticipate and ameliorate medium to longer term effects"_


I'm guessing the Yellow Card system is much like VAERS and anyone can submit a report. But, it's not like Dr. Tess Lawrie hasn't been wrong before.


----------



## TheHead

PMedMoe said:


> I'm guessing the Yellow Card system is much like VAERS and anyone can submit a report. But, it's not like Dr. Tess Lawrie hasn't been wrong before.



That's exactly what it is.  It's pretty much the UK version of VAERS.   The data is being misinterpreted intentionally to stoke vaccine fears so Dr. Tess Lawrie can peddle Ivermectin.  More dangerous nonsense.  She's constantly propped up by Epoch Times which should tell you all you need to know about her.

Straight from the UK Government website.



> The Yellow Card scheme is a mechanism by which anybody can voluntarily report any suspected adverse reactions or side effects to the vaccine. *It is very important to note that a Yellow Card report does not necessarily mean the vaccine caused that reaction or event*. We ask for any suspicions to be reported, even if the reporter isn’t sure if it was caused by the vaccine. Reports to the scheme are known as suspected adverse reactions (ADRs).



Edited to add quote.


----------



## PMedMoe

TheHead said:


> That's exactly what it is.  It's pretty much the UK version of VAERS.   The data is being misinterpreted intentionally to stoke vaccine fears so Dr. Tess Lawrie can peddle Ivermectin.  More dangerous nonsense.  She's constantly propped up by Epoch Times which should tell you all you need to know about her.


Thanks.


----------



## CBH99

Good2Golf said:


> If you like the flavour of nefarious dealings related to viruses and who was involved, when, where and with whom, there's always the nexus of the PLA and agents/researchers of the CCP operating within Canada's highest-classified National Microbiology Lab.  Interesting that Canada was sending Ebola and other viruses directly to the Wuhan Institute of Virology back in 2019...
> 
> Whereabouts of two scientists fired from Winnipeg virus lab for possible national-security issues shrouded in mystery
> 
> Imagine if there was ever a causal link developed between NML and WIV related to SARS-CoV2? 🤔


What in the actual f**k are PLA scientists doing in our labs?  If they are employed by the PLA, paid by the PLA, and obviously serving the PLA -- why in the hell are they here, in our labs, accessing whatever we have going on in them?  How many things does China have to do to convey they are NOT our friend?


I imagine the Soviet era KGB is rolling in it's grave with their mouths gaped open in amazement, like "Wait...all we had to do was ask?"  🤦‍♂️


----------



## CBH99

“Hey there Canada... 

we’re going to hoard and steal a lot of your PPE right before the world notices there’s a global pandemic.  Sorry in advance. 

Oh?  You’re short on PPE?  Funny enough, we have some extra!  We’ll send it to you because we are such good friends!

Plane arrived empty? Oofff, sorry about that. Our bad. Thanks for agreeing to pay for the flight though. 🖕

Ah yes, your two Michaels.  What about them?  Yes they are locked in a prison, with lights on 24hrs a day, with no contact allowed with consular officials or legal counsel.  It’s only fair we lock up these two citizens who aren’t charged with crimes.... I mean you DID arrest one of ours on a warrant, and are letting her stay in a mansion.

Political prisoners?  No no no.  The timing is just coincidence...

Oh, and just incase you didn’t get how serious we are, we are blocking trade on some agricultural products of yours.  No real reason why, other than to make you realize your mistake.  Tsk tsk...


Btw, sorry about trying to infiltrate your local, provincial, and federal governments.  How else do we ensure Chinese companies are awarded contracts if we don’t have some influence in your sovereign decisions?

Did you just say out loud that the virus that’s decimated the world in a lot of ways escaped a lab that studies that kind of virus?  That’s racist!! 

Remember - a dude eating a bat is responsible for killing MILLIONS of people, not our research on deadly viruses...   might have to block that trade with you again.  Smarten up. 

Also, please don’t block our companies from building and managing your 5G networks.  We would love to manufacture the circuits, software, and hardware that your country’s 5G network would reply on. 

Much easier to keep you in line when we control whether communications work or not... get it?  

Also, if that scares you and you want to control your own networks, that’s just racist.  Might have to put both Michaels on death row.  (We aren’t holding them as political leverage at all, hence making them political prisons.  We would never do that.)


BTW - and this is from the heart.  Thank You so much for allowing our scientists - trained, employed, and paid for by the PLA - access to your highly classified virus research.  You are too kind to us.  Literally. 

And wait, did you just question us declaring ourselves a near Arctic nation?  As you can clearly see, China is just as close to the Arctic as the other nations on this list.  You’re just being racist again... you like trade disruptions, EH?  One of those Michaels might just need to be put on death row now...

Must be going now - we have an entire planet to influence, manage, spy on, and infiltrate.  Busy bee over here!!

Thank you JT for being so accommodating to us, and for not causing a stink when you do catch us meddling in your affairs in some pretty sketchy ways.  The access to the lab was a big one, usually we have to infiltrate labs with spies - thank you for saving us the hassle. 


Let us know if you need anything, we’ll be happy to use your request against you somehow. 


Much Love,
China”



What else can China really do? 

Kidnap our citizens?  Done.  Block random trade?  Done. 

Support cyber espionage against critical infrastructure & government agencies?  Done. 

Infiltrate our governments to influence or coerce our decisions?  Done. 

Infiltrate post secondary institutions?  Done.   (Have fun dealing with all the highly opinionated 21yo SJWs)


PLA scientists shouldn’t have been allowed anywhere near any of our labs.  We don’t let harmless Bob down the road near them, why the f**k is the PLA allowed in them?

PLA wants to do a winter warfare course here?  Why?  They have winter in China too.  Maybe it isn’t about a 2 week winter warfare course, maybe it’s about what base the course would be hosted at.... ever think of that??  

(Don’t worry, it took about 5 seconds for the folks on Army.ca to find many reasons why it may be a bad idea.  Doing your thinking for you, for free.  What does the government pay for a “this is obviously a stupid decision” advisor?

<Mind boggled rant over> sorry mods, just had to vent


----------



## mariomike

In today's news.
"How Canada rose to the top for 1st doses of COVID-19 vaccine"​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-first-dose-1.6060834


----------



## QV

Interesting COVID related reading:

From the Lancet








						COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness—the elephant (not) in the room
					

Approximately 96 COVID-19 vaccines are at various stages of clinical development.1 At present, we have the interim results of four studies published in scientific journals (on the Pfizer–BioNTech BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine,2 the Moderna–US National Institutes of Health [NIH] mRNA-1273 vaccine,3 the...



					www.thelancet.com
				






			https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/06000/review_of_the_emerging_evidence_demonstrating_the.4.aspx
		







						Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19 Infection: a Systematic Review and Meta-analysis
					

Background Re-purposed medicines may have role in combating the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The antiparasitic medicine ivermectin, which has anti-viral and anti-inflammatory properties, has been tested in numerous clinical trials with promising results.Methods </st...




					www.researchsquare.com
				












						Pierre Kory MD, MPA - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Pulmonary and Critical Care Specialist  President and Chief Medical Officer  Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC)




					covid19criticalcare.com


----------



## PMedMoe

*Pierre Kory* is an American critical care physician who gained attention during the COVID-19 pandemic for advocating widespread use of unproven drugs as treatments. Kory testified in front of the U.S. Senate twice regarding COVID-19. During his testimony on December 8, 2020, Kory erroneously claimed that the antiparasitic medication invermectin was a "wonder drug" with "miraculous effectiveness" against COVID-19.

Is this the same paper?


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> *Pierre Kory* is an American critical care physician who gained attention during the COVID-19 pandemic for advocating widespread use of unproven drugs as treatments. Kory testified in front of the U.S. Senate twice regarding COVID-19. During his testimony on December 8, 2020, Kory erroneously claimed that the antiparasitic medication invermectin was a "wonder drug" with "miraculous effectiveness" against COVID-19.
> 
> Is this the same paper?



I can't think of any reason why a low cost therapeutic that's been around for decades would be shut down and demonized in todays media.  Oh, wait... huge money.  "Unproven"... isn't that ironic.   

When in history has censorship ever proven to be the correct and just course of action?  And more to the point, scientific censorship?

For those interested in some critical thought, listen to Brett Weinstein host Dr. Kory and discuss the COVID issue here: ‎Bret Weinstein | DarkHorse Podcast: COVID, Ivermectin, and the Crime of the Century: DarkHorse Podcast with Pierre Kory & Bret Weinstein on Apple Podcasts









						Dr. Bret Weinstein
					

Dr. Bret Weinstein is an evolutionary theorist, author of A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century, host of The DarkHorse Podcast. Advancing the field of evolutionary biology, and teaching at The Evergreen State College for 14 Years. He has developed a new Darwinian framework based on design tr




					bretweinstein.net
				




From the Covid19 Critical Care site I linked above here is some of what they state on the "unproven" ivermectin: 

"...since its development 40 years ago, has already demonstrated its ability to make historic impacts on global health, given it led to the eradication of a “pandemic” of parasitic diseases across multiple continents. These impacts are what awarded the discoverers of ivermectin the 2015 Nobel prize in Medicine.

More recently, profound anti-viral and anti-inflammatory properties of ivermectin have been identified. In COVID-19 specifically, studies show that one of its several anti-viral properties is that it strongly binds to the spike protein, keeping the virus from entering the cell. These effects, along with its multiple abilities to control inflammation, both explain the markedly positive trial results already reported, and poise ivermectin to again achieve similar historic impacts via the eradication of COVID-19."


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> In today's news.
> "How Canada rose to the top for 1st doses of COVID-19 vaccine"​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-first-dose-1.6060834


I think I have a bunch of mea culpas on order here, but folks told me to wait until the actual date before collecting


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> *Pierre Kory* is an American critical care physician who gained attention during the COVID-19 pandemic for advocating widespread use of unproven drugs as treatments. Kory testified in front of the U.S. Senate twice regarding COVID-19. During his testimony on December 8, 2020, Kory erroneously claimed that the antiparasitic medication invermectin was a "wonder drug" with "miraculous effectiveness" against COVID-19.
> 
> Is this the same paper?


Your Wikipedia source is pretty weak compared to his actual credentials and the company he keeps, found here:





						Our Physicians - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Founding Members    Physicians involved in founding FLCCC and developing protocols.        Clinical Advisors   Clinicians who help shape our approaches based on their unique experience and specialty.




					covid19criticalcare.com
				




Here is an example of a Covid 19 Critical Care co-founder he works with, Dr. Marik:

_Dr. Marik has special knowledge and training in a diverse set of medical fields, with specific training in Internal Medicine, Critical Care, Neurocritical Care, Pharmacology, Anesthesia, Nutrition, and Tropical Medicine and Hygiene. Dr. Marik is currently a tenured Professor of Medicine and Chief of the Division of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine at Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk, Virginia. *Dr. Marik has written over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles, 80 book chapters and authored four critical care books. He has been cited over 43,000 times in peer-reviewed publications and has an H-index of 77. *He has delivered over 350 lectures at international conferences and visiting professorships. He has received numerous teaching awards, including the National Teacher of the Year award by the American College of Physicians in 2017. *He is the 2nd most published critical care physician in the world ever*, and is a world renowned expert in the management of sepsis – his contributions to the understanding and management of the hemodynamic, fluid, nutritional, and supportive care practices in sepsis have transformed the care of patients throughout the world. He also led the Society of Critical Care Medicine task force on corticosteroids in sepsis. He has already co-authored 10 papers on many therapeutic aspects of COVID-19._


----------



## QV

CPAC video with Dr. Byram Bridle (fast forward past MP Derek Sloan) explaining the attacks on him since recently discussing the risk with the new mRNA vaccines, he further explains where the science has lead him, and that his educational institution is behind him.  Video is already censored by YouTube and Facebook.  






						CPAC - For the Record
					

CPAC - For the Record




					www.cpac.ca


----------



## CBH99

QV said:


> CPAC video with Dr. Byram Bridle (fast forward past MP Derek Sloan) explaining the attacks on him since recently discussing the risk with the new mRNA vaccines, he further explains where the science has lead him, and that his educational institution is behind him.  Video is already censored by YouTube and Facebook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CPAC - For the Record
> 
> 
> CPAC - For the Record
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cpac.ca


Anytime Youtube or Facebook censors a video that isn't pornographic or grossly violent/inappropriate, I raise an eyebrow.

During this pandemic, there have been plenty of well educated individuals in various scientific and medical fields that have suggested trying already existing, well proven drugs for something other than their intended use.  So while these drugs weren't proven in regards to Covid, the drugs themselves were readily available & in circulation.  We didn't have any vaccines yet, so they were doing their best to come up with 'something' to help.

These individuals - for the most part - had good intentions.  Some ideas suggested did pan out and help, others didn't do what they had hoped, and some were completely misunderstood.  



I am totally fine with social media censoring/banning someone selling snake oil, looking to make a quick buck from the pandemic, in which people could very well die or suffer immensely because they fell for a scheme which seemed believable.  Censor them and ban them, we don't need people who were scared to be so desperate for a sense of safety that they end up doing dangerous things to themselves believing it's for their safety.  

I do get concerned when social media bans various people in the scientific and medical communities whose suggestions, ideas, or viewpoints are different than some others.  Good science happens when people can talk to each other, compare notes, compare data, throw around ideas, disagree with each other, etc - and ultimately something good comes as a result.  

If we don't allow well-intentioned, well educated folks to talk about their ideas, suggestions, possible solutions because their view doesn't vibe with the mainstream view, we are very much doing ourselves a disservice.


0.02


----------



## QV

CBH99 said:


> Anytime Youtube or Facebook censors a video that isn't pornographic or grossly violent/inappropriate, I raise an eyebrow.
> 
> During this pandemic, there have been plenty of well educated individuals in various scientific and medical fields that have suggested trying already existing, well proven drugs for something other than their intended use.  So while these drugs weren't proven in regards to Covid, the drugs themselves were readily available & in circulation.  We didn't have any vaccines yet, so they were doing their best to come up with 'something' to help.
> 
> These individuals - for the most part - had good intentions.  Some ideas suggested did pan out and help, others didn't do what they had hoped, and some were completely misunderstood.
> 
> 
> 
> I am totally fine with social media censoring/banning someone selling snake oil, looking to make a quick buck from the pandemic, in which people could very well die or suffer immensely because they fell for a scheme which seemed believable.  Censor them and ban them, we don't need people who were scared to be so desperate for a sense of safety that they end up doing dangerous things to themselves believing it's for their safety.
> 
> I do get concerned when social media bans various people in the scientific and medical communities whose suggestions, ideas, or viewpoints are different than some others.  Good science happens when people can talk to each other, compare notes, compare data, throw around ideas, disagree with each other, etc - and ultimately something good comes as a result.
> 
> If we don't allow well-intentioned, well educated folks to talk about their ideas, suggestions, possible solutions because their view doesn't vibe with the mainstream view, we are very much doing ourselves a disservice.
> 
> 
> 0.02



I have an issue with foreign social media giants, such as FB, censoring anything not illegal.  We are allowing a private org like FB to dictate what we see and hear.  FB has it's own interests and they may not align with Canada's.  Knowing what we know today of media and social media not being honest brokers, how can we allow this to carry on?    

For example I personally believe Dr. Byram Bridle, a Canadian, is more likely to have my (or any Canadian citizen's) best interests in mind than Mark Zuckerberg. Bridle is established, qualified, and experienced in this field. There is nothing in his personal history, as far as I presently know, that would give me concern as to his motivations (for example he is not aligned with an extremist group or under the employ of a private enterprise seeking to profit that I am aware of). I get the impression he is genuine, very concerned, and considering todays environment very courageous for speaking out publicly about what he believes, scientifically. And he is not alone, he is supported by many experts in this field who are struggling to get the message out.

What concerns me here is that, in this war on COVID19, we are not pulling out all stops to win. We are narrowly focused on lockdowns and emergency use vaccines and the new vaccines are being pushed in a manner never before seen in our history. Our public health officials should be listening to people like Bridle, and maybe they are I don't know.  All I see is censorship. I would like to see public panel discussions on all of this by the qualified folks, not censorship. We as citizens have a duty to look after each other. If the findings Bridle illustrates are accurate, we need to act now. If Bridle's findings are wrong, we equally need to know to be reassured we are on the right path.  

Here is a more comprehensive compilation of Bridle's, and many others, scientific findings to date:



			https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/2021-06-15-children_and_covid-19_vaccines_full_guide.pdf


----------



## OldSolduer

When COVID is over what else will we have to be outraged about....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Well this shoots my _tin-foil hat conspiracy nut_ theory that the corona virus came from the _Wuhan_ Institute of Virology all to hell.

Top virologist in China who works at the _Wuhan_ Institute of Virology, Shi Zhengli, said that speculation about her lab in Wuhan was baseless.









						A Top Virologist in China, at Center of a Pandemic Storm, Speaks Out (Published 2021)
					

The virologist, Shi Zhengli, said in a rare interview that speculation about her lab in Wuhan was baseless. But China’s habitual secrecy makes her claims hard to validate.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> “How on earth can I offer up evidence for something where there is no evidence?” she said, her voice rising in anger during the brief, unscheduled conversation. “I don’t know how the world has come to this, constantly pouring filth on an innocent scientist,” she wrote in a text message.



I feel terrible.


----------



## Loachman

"where there is no evidence"

The clean-up was already done by the time that the world had its first inkling of what was to come.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldSolduer said:


> When COVID is over what else will we have to be outraged about....


----------



## ModlrMike

I'm that guy already... so no change.


----------



## OldSolduer

Loachman said:


> The clean up silencing of witnesses  was already done by the time that the world had its first inkling of what was to come.


FTFY


----------



## daftandbarmy

And so it begins...


No Springsteen for you: AstraZeneca not good enough to qualify for Broadway ticket​ 
View Royal mayor among those unable to attend New York entertainment due to COVID-19 restriction


David Screech had already selected his seats and put in his credit card information for “Springsteen on Broadway” tickets when he noticed the COVID-19 vaccine requirements: his two doses of Oxford-AstraZeneca wouldn’t be enough for admission.

Screech, the mayor of View Royal, B.C., and a Springsteen fan of 40 years, received his second AstraZeneca dose last week, but the Jujamcyn Theaters’ website said it would only allow guests “fully vaccinated with an FDA-approved vaccine” — Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson — to see the show.

The New York venue held firm when Screech contacted them directly to ask about the requirement, turning his anticipation into disappointment. While he’s “very grateful” to have two doses of an effective vaccine, Screech said he had some reservations about AstraZeneca, and the Broadway snub “certainly added to that.”

“Obviously our health is far more important than being able to go to shows or concerts. But the flip side of that is, shows and concerts have been a major part of my life,” Screech said.

“And the idea of not being able to go to them for the foreseeable future because of possibly getting the wrong vaccine is a little disappointing.”
“Springsteen on Broadway” isn’t the only New York City attraction holding guests to strict vaccination rules.

Live tapings of TV shows including “Saturday Night Live” and “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert” also snub AstraZeneca doses in rules listed on their websites, which say they’re acting “at the direction of New York State.”

The New York Islanders, currently in an NHL playoff series against the Tampa Bay Lightning, don’t appear to have the same restrictions. While the team’s website says fans need proof of vaccination “per New York State guidelines,” the arena also has “non-vaccinated sections.”
The offices of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, the New York State Department of Health and the Jujamcyn Theaters did not immediately return requests for comment.

Dr. Zain Chagla, an infectious disease physician in Hamilton, wasn’t surprised to see institutions begin enacting vaccine passports. But blocking AstraZeneca recipients from a Springsteen show seemed particularly cruel.

“If there’s something more painful you can do to Generation X, this is it,” Chagla said with a laugh.
Potential vaccine requirements for travellers could get even trickier if other countries begin forming rules based on their own authorized jabs, Chagla said.

A sense of vaccine nationalism could lead some to insist their authorized products are “the gold standard,” he added, noting that Johnson & Johnson, which was created with the same viral-vector technology as AstraZeneca, was slightly less effective in clinical trials.









						No Springsteen for you: AstraZeneca not good enough to qualify for Broadway ticket - Saanich News
					

View Royal mayor among those unable to attend New York entertainment due to COVID-19 restriction




					www.saanichnews.com


----------



## PMedMoe

I have to wonder what they'll make of mixing vaccines.  Not that I intend to travel anytime soon, or attend any concerts.


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> And so it begins...
> 
> 
> No Springsteen for you: AstraZeneca not good enough to qualify for Broadway ticket​
> View Royal mayor among those unable to attend New York entertainment due to COVID-19 restriction
> 
> 
> David Screech had already selected his seats and put in his credit card information for “Springsteen on Broadway” tickets when he noticed the COVID-19 vaccine requirements: his two doses of Oxford-AstraZeneca wouldn’t be enough for admission.
> 
> Screech, the mayor of View Royal, B.C., and a Springsteen fan of 40 years, received his second AstraZeneca dose last week, but the Jujamcyn Theaters’ website said it would only allow guests “fully vaccinated with an FDA-approved vaccine” — Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson — to see the show.
> 
> The New York venue held firm when Screech contacted them directly to ask about the requirement, turning his anticipation into disappointment. While he’s “very grateful” to have two doses of an effective vaccine, Screech said he had some reservations about AstraZeneca, and the Broadway snub “certainly added to that.”
> 
> “Obviously our health is far more important than being able to go to shows or concerts. But the flip side of that is, shows and concerts have been a major part of my life,” Screech said.
> 
> “And the idea of not being able to go to them for the foreseeable future because of possibly getting the wrong vaccine is a little disappointing.”
> “Springsteen on Broadway” isn’t the only New York City attraction holding guests to strict vaccination rules.
> 
> Live tapings of TV shows including “Saturday Night Live” and “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert” also snub AstraZeneca doses in rules listed on their websites, which say they’re acting “at the direction of New York State.”
> 
> The New York Islanders, currently in an NHL playoff series against the Tampa Bay Lightning, don’t appear to have the same restrictions. While the team’s website says fans need proof of vaccination “per New York State guidelines,” the arena also has “non-vaccinated sections.”
> The offices of New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, the New York State Department of Health and the Jujamcyn Theaters did not immediately return requests for comment.
> 
> Dr. Zain Chagla, an infectious disease physician in Hamilton, wasn’t surprised to see institutions begin enacting vaccine passports. But blocking AstraZeneca recipients from a Springsteen show seemed particularly cruel.
> 
> “If there’s something more painful you can do to Generation X, this is it,” Chagla said with a laugh.
> Potential vaccine requirements for travellers could get even trickier if other countries begin forming rules based on their own authorized jabs, Chagla said.
> 
> A sense of vaccine nationalism could lead some to insist their authorized products are “the gold standard,” he added, noting that Johnson & Johnson, which was created with the same viral-vector technology as AstraZeneca, was slightly less effective in clinical trials.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Springsteen for you: AstraZeneca not good enough to qualify for Broadway ticket - Saanich News
> 
> 
> View Royal mayor among those unable to attend New York entertainment due to COVID-19 restriction
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.saanichnews.com


This is purely political.  

Not “Made in ‘Murica”…or “PMJ2, f*ck, yeah!”



* PMJ2 - Pfizer-Moderna-Johnson&Johnson


----------



## The Bread Guy

Loachman said:


> "where there is no evidence"


Absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence


----------



## OldTanker

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/springsteen-broadway-astrazeneca-1.6072682
		

Looks like all you Springsteen fans are in luck!


----------



## Loachman

OldSolduer said:


> FTFY



I was just referring to the files, but, yes.


----------



## Infanteer

OldTanker said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/springsteen-broadway-astrazeneca-1.6072682
> 
> 
> Looks like all you Springsteen fans are in luck!


Well, it's fortunate that the 70 an up demographic were amongst the first to get vaccinated!


----------



## blacktriangle

Infanteer said:


> Well, it's fortunate that the 70 an up demographic were amongst the first to get vaccinated!


Hey! I used to listen to "Streets of Philadelphia" while waiting for test results from the MIR...


----------



## Loachman

No Remorse: China Now Says the Wuhan Lab Deserves a Nobel Prize | National Review
					

The Chinese Foreign Ministry argues that the Wuhan Institute of Virology deserves to win the Nobel Prize for Medicine.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## Remius

Crazy is an apt description.


Loachman said:


> No Remorse: China Now Says the Wuhan Lab Deserves a Nobel Prize | National Review
> 
> 
> The Chinese Foreign Ministry argues that the Wuhan Institute of Virology deserves to win the Nobel Prize for Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


I guess we'll see how much pull they have with the Nobel committee.


----------



## cavalryman

Loachman said:


> No Remorse: China Now Says the Wuhan Lab Deserves a Nobel Prize | National Review
> 
> 
> The Chinese Foreign Ministry argues that the Wuhan Institute of Virology deserves to win the Nobel Prize for Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com


The only prize the PRC government should get is one for chutzpah.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Loachman said:


> No Remorse: China Now Says the Wuhan Lab Deserves a Nobel Prize | National Review
> 
> 
> The Chinese Foreign Ministry argues that the Wuhan Institute of Virology deserves to win the Nobel Prize for Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalreview.com



And the Taliban should get the Peace prize as well.....


----------



## Loachman

China Apologist Peter Daszak Has Some Explaining to Do | National Review
					

Even as he’s recusing himself from a COVID-19 commission, turns out he also backed up Beijing’s implausible theory that the virus was imported to Wuhan.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## Loachman

Remius said:


> Crazy is an apt description.
> 
> I guess we'll see how much pull they have with the Nobel committee.



I like to maintain a degree of optimism, but, given the way that many/more things are going in the world today, I'm not willing to risk much of a bet in either direction.

There's a site called "Not the Bee" which publishes real news articles that are virtually indistinguishable from parodies in the Babylon Bee.


----------



## Loachman




----------



## Weinie

Loachman said:


>


OK. Watched the video. Good affirmation of confirmatory bias for those who want to exist in that realm.

There are literally hundreds of peer-reviewed studies on amadyglia impact on human reactions and decision making, this seems to be literally weighted to the conclusion that the authors were trying to achieve.

When you conflate phsyiology with politics, things like eugenics theory occur.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
					

Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.




					apnews.com


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:


> OK. Watched the video. Good affirmation of confirmatory bias for those who want to exist in that realm.
> 
> There are literally hundreds of peer-reviewed studies on amadyglia impact on human reactions and decision making, this seems to be literally weighted to the conclusion that the authors were trying to achieve.
> 
> When you conflate phsyiology with politics, things like eugenics theory occur.


The amygdala is what I think you are referring too. I teach R2MR to our staff in the jails and we focus on how we can tone down that amygdala and its reactions. 
Generally speaking if you haven't faced a particular threat before you have three COAs and you don't get to consciously choose : Fight, Flight or Freeze.


----------



## daftandbarmy

This isn't very encouraging....



14 flights added to B.C. COVID-19 exposures list last week


The centre added five flights to the list on Monday, three on Tuesday, four on Thursday and two on Friday. None were added Sunday, Wednesday or Saturday.

Though they were added to the list last week, the latest flights took off from or landed at B.C. airports between June 11 and 23.

Details of the latest additions follow.


 June 11: Air Canada flight 997 from Mexico City to Vancouver (rows 23 to 29)
 June 14: WestJet flight 3116 from Victoria to Calgary (rows 12 to 18)
 June 15: Air Canada flight 204 from Vancouver to Calgary (rows 21 to 27)
 June 15: Air Canada/Jazz flight 8543 from Winnipeg to Vancouver (rows 20 to 26)
 June 16: All Nippon Airways flight 116 from Tokyo to Vancouver (rows 33 to 39)
 June 17: Lufthansa flight 492 from Frankfurt to Vancouver (rows 21 to 27 and 38 to 44)
 June 17: Air Canada flight 1185 from Calgary to Kelowna (rows 12 to 18)
 June 17: Philippine Airlines flight 116 from Manila to Vancouver (rows 35 to 41)
 June 17: Japan Airlines flight 18 from Tokyo to Vancouver (rows one to three)
 June 20: Air Canada flight 8093 from Vancouver to Seattle (rows eight to 14)
 June 20: Air Canada flight 8184 from Fort St. John to Vancouver (rows 11 to 17)
 June 20: WestJet flight 3109 from Calgary to Nanaimo (rows four to 10)
 June 21: Air Canada flight 8090 from Seattle to Vancouver (rows three to nine)
 June 23: Aeromexico flight 696 from Mexico City to Vancouver (rows 13 to 19)
14 flights added to B.C. COVID-19 exposures list last week


----------



## OceanBonfire

Considering we received mRNA vaccine and specifically Moderna:



> ... people immunized with mRNA vaccines may need less or even no boosters at all after they’ve been given their two shots.











						Study finds Pfizer, Moderna vaccine immunity lasts longer. Do we still need booster shots? - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The study found that mRNA-based vaccines create a more "persistent" response, making a person's immunity much more stronger and durable.




					globalnews.ca
				












						mRNA vaccines could offer long-term immunity to COVID-19: study
					

A new peer-reviewed study suggests that mRNA vaccines like the ones made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna could offer years of protection against COVID-19.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Moderna COVID-19 vaccine seems to protect against Delta variant: study - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In a lab study, people who received the Moderna vaccine developed antibodies that seem to protect against the Delta variant of COVID-19.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine shows promise against Delta variant in lab study
					

Moderna Inc's COVID-19 vaccine showed promise against the Delta variant first identified in India in a lab study, with a modest decrease in response compared to the original strain, the drugmaker said on Tuesday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

oops.... another COVID 19 casualty:

Inside the plot to expose Matt Hancock's affair: Friends talk of secret camera hidden by Chinese... or No10. In fact it was footage from his office CCTV and a whistleblower in his own department, reveals GLEN OWEN​
The sting that brought down *Matt Hancock* was executed by a whistleblower in his department who contacted opponents of the Health Secretary's stance on *lockdown* to help expose his affair, The Mail on Sunday can reveal.

The footage of Mr Hancock kissing Gina Coladangelo was caught on a CCTV camera in his office on May 6, and secretly recorded by a member of his department's staff.

After allowing a month to elapse, the whistleblower approached lockdown sceptics and asked them to help sell the incendiary footage to the media.

Throughout the pandemic, Mr Hancock has been a leading lockdown 'dove', arguing that the ultimate priority of government policy should be protecting the *NHS* against being overwhelmed. His critics have argued that the cost of the measures has been too high.

When the images detonated on The Sun's front page on Friday, Mr Hancock's allies speculated that he had been the victim of a 'hit' by No 10, or even a foreign power such as China.

They said they had no idea the camera existed, that it was 'unheard of' for cameras to be installed in Ministers' offices, and wanted to know why it had been put there without Mr Hancock's permission – and with what motivation. It was speculated that the images had been caught by 'a small covert camera that had been placed in a light fixture'.

In fact, pictures taken in September 2017, just before Mr Hancock moved in, show that the camera which caught the clinch is clearly visible on the ceiling of his office.

It is trained on the area by the doorway where the couple embraced.

Six weeks after the fateful images were captured – and a fortnight after they had been wiped from the department's CCTV system – the worker who had secured the footage contacted an anti-lockdown campaigner, who promised to try to place them in the media.

The Mail on Sunday was not one of the outlets approached. It is not known if The Sun obtained the video from the whistleblower or from another source entirely.

In a series of Instagram messages seen by this newspaper, the whistleblower says they need 'to be very careful with the information I am about to share'.

They add: 'I have some very damning CCTV footage of someone that has been recently classed as completely f*****g hopeless.'

The first message was sent on June 17, the day after former No 10 aide Dominic Cummings released a text exchange between him and the Prime Minister in which Boris Johnson expressed his frustration with Mr Hancock.

Matt Hancock's affair footage was from his office CCTV, says GLEN OWEN


----------



## PMedMoe

That confirms my belief that The Daily Mail is mainly a tabloid.


----------



## mariomike

First responder? Essential worker? Healthcare provider? After all you did during COVID, after all the sacrifice, and all the pain, the grateful public has joined together to let you know ...there is no way you are getting a monument. 





						Locals Protest Cuomo's Plan To Install Essential Workers Monument In Battery Park City - Gothamist
					

Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.




					gothamist.com


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:


> First responder? Essential worker? Healthcare provider? After all you did during COVID, after all the sacrifice, and all the pain, the grateful public has joined together to let you know ...there is no way you are getting a monument.


I tend to agree with them.  I don't imagine NY has loads of greenspaces.  Put a monument elsewhere.

Better than a monument would be a raise for all essential workers.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> I tend to agree with them.  I don't imagine NY has loads of greenspaces.  Put a monument elsewhere.
> 
> Better than a monument would be a raise for all essential workers.


I hear you about the pay raise. 

The Battery Park location was selected by the Essential Workers,



> The Commission of labor leaders representing all essential workers have chosen a location in Battery Park City to install the monument.


Governor Cuomo Unveils New Renderings for Essential Workers Monument


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:


> The Battery Park location was selected by the Essential Workers Commission of labor leaders representing essential workers.


FTFY.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> FTFY.


Thanks, I think. 



> labor leaders representing essential workers.



Labour leaders are elected by the members they represent.


Mario Cilento, President, New York State AFL-CIO
Gary LaBarbera, President of the New York State Building & Construction Trades Council and President of the Building & Construction Trades Council of Greater New York
Vincent Alvarez, President, New York City Central Labor Council
Stuart Appelbaum, President, Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union
Oren Barzilay, President, Uniformed EMT's, Paramedics & Fire Inspectors - FDNY
Kyle Bragg, President, 32BJ SEIU
Sam Fresina, President, NYS Professional Firefighters Association
Henry Garrido, Executive Director, DC 37
Thomas Gesualdi, President, Teamster's Joint Council 16
George Gresham, President, 1199 SEIU
Pat Kane, RN, Executive Director, New York State Nurses Association
Bonnie Litvack, MD, President, Medical Society of the State of New York
Rich Maroko, President, Hotel Trades Council
Harry Nespoli, President, Uniformed Sanitationmen's Association
Andrew Pallotta, President, New York State United Teachers
Michael Powers, President, New York State Correctional Officers Police Benevolent Association
Major General Raymond F. Shields, Jr., Adjutant General of New York
James Shillito, Utility Workers of America Local 1-2
Wayne Spence, President, New York State Public Employees Federation
Mary Sullivan, President, CSEA Local 1000
Dennis Trainor, Vice President CWA District 1
Tony Utano, President, TWU Local 100
Richard Wells, President, Police Conference of New York State
Personally, as a retired person, I am grateful to them. I wouldn't begrudge our essential workers a monument. And a pay raise.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Yikes....

*B.C.’s COVID-19 death toll likely 2x what’s been reported: study*

Preliminary evidence suggests the province’s excess deaths in 2020 were from the virus, says co-author Tara Moriarty

Twice as many British Columbians may have died from COVID-19 than what was reported by the government, according to an in-depth analysis of fatalities during the first wave.

“Excess All-Cause Mortality During the COVID-19 Epidemic in Canada,” a policy briefing for the Royal Society of Canada, was published this month by a group of Canadian researchers.

The study focused on the deaths in people 45 and older, most susceptible to the virus, and adjusted figures to include the rise in drug poisoning deaths amid the pandemic.

A study of death rates, antibody tests and cremation data found that at least two-thirds of the deaths caused by COVID-19 outside of long-term care may have been missed.

Co-author of the report, University of Toronto professor Tara Moriarty, said from Feb. 1 to Nov. 28, 2020, there were 1,767 more deaths than a typical year in the province.

She believes most – if not all of them – are a result of COVID-19 infections.

B.C.’s COVID-19 death toll likely 2x what’s been reported: study - Saanich News


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Yikes....
> 
> *B.C.’s COVID-19 death toll likely 2x what’s been reported: study*
> 
> Preliminary evidence suggests the province’s excess deaths in 2020 were from the virus, says co-author Tara Moriarty
> 
> Twice as many British Columbians may have died from COVID-19 than what was reported by the government, according to an in-depth analysis of fatalities during the first wave.
> 
> “Excess All-Cause Mortality During the COVID-19 Epidemic in Canada,” a policy briefing for the Royal Society of Canada, was published this month by a group of Canadian researchers.
> 
> The study focused on the deaths in people 45 and older, most susceptible to the virus, and adjusted figures to include the rise in drug poisoning deaths amid the pandemic.
> 
> A study of death rates, antibody tests and cremation data found that at least two-thirds of the deaths caused by COVID-19 outside of long-term care may have been missed.
> 
> Co-author of the report, University of Toronto professor Tara Moriarty, said from Feb. 1 to Nov. 28, 2020, there were 1,767 more deaths than a typical year in the province.
> 
> She believes most – if not all of them – are a result of COVID-19 infections.
> 
> B.C.’s COVID-19 death toll likely 2x what’s been reported: study - Saanich News


I don't know how they do it in B.C. . But, I would speculate out of hospital cardiac arrests prounouced by paramedics may not get tested.


----------



## dangerboy

According to the Army Times the US military is looking at mandatory vaccinations Prepare for mandatory COVID vaccines in September, Army tells commands



> The Army has directed commands to prepare to administer mandatory COVID-19 vaccines as early as Sept. 1, pending full Food and Drug Administration licensure, Army Times has learned.
> 
> The directive came from an execute order sent to the force by Department of the Army Headquarters.
> 
> Army Times obtained a portion of a recent update to HQDA EXORD 225-21, COVID-19 Steady State Operations.
> 
> “Commanders will continue COVID-19 vaccination operations and prepare for a directive to mandate COVID-19 vaccination for service members [on or around] 01 September 2021, pending full FDA licensure,” the order said. “Commands will be prepared to provide a backbrief on servicemember vaccination status and way ahead for completion once the vaccine is mandated.”


----------



## Colin Parkinson

So your pushing vaccinations, would you want a clear record of vaccine side effects to help with long term studies? Apparently not, if you want conspiracy theories, this is how you get them....


----------



## TCM621

Colin Parkinson said:


> So your pushing vaccinations, would you want a clear record of vaccine side effects to help with long term studies? Apparently not, if you want conspiracy theories, this is how you get them....


Just to be clear Bret Weinstein isn't a conspiracy theorist he has a PhD in  biology. His wife, Heather Heying, is also a PhD Biologist. They are serious scientists and have been talking with many other scientists, including prominent virologists, for months. 

I'm vaccinated but I think he makes a lot of good points, especially about the lack of scientific rigor that seems to being applied to the mainstream Coronavirus ideas while simultaneously dismissing, out of hand, various claims that have turned out to be just as valid, if not more so.


----------



## Altair

If this is true, I've officially lost all hope of covid ever going away.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413922415550291968
Since Israel got ahead of the world in terms of vaccinations in December and January, and it's now July and vaccinated people are making up the bulk of cases, we may be seeing the immunity from covid and variants wane after....6 months.

If that's the case, I don't even know what the plan going forward is going to be, boosters every 6 months?

Brutal.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> If that's the case, I don't even know what the plan going forward is going to be, boosters every 6 months?
> 
> Brutal.



Technically someone wouldn't be fully vaccinated if they require ongoing boosters is what you're saying?


----------



## suffolkowner

Altair said:


> If this is true, I've officially lost all hope of covid ever going away.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413922415550291968
> Since Israel got ahead of the world in terms of vaccinations in December and January, and it's now July and vaccinated people are making up the bulk of cases, we may be seeing the immunity from covid and variants wane after....6 months.
> 
> If that's the case, I don't even know what the plan going forward is going to be, boosters every 6 months?
> 
> Brutal.


it doesn't state whether they are one dose or two. I'm assumming two due to their head start but maybe not? It's interesting problem for sure though I was pretty sure that the preliminary data elsewhere was showing different. Curious what variant/mutations are cycling through Israel now. How far the spike protein can be stretched and still bind to the ACE receptor will limit the functionality of Covid variants. So far they seem to be getting better at fit and function instead of the reverse. My reading has suggested that the vaccines are only differing from each other by one nucleotide in a thousand which is very low. We probably will need a booster that matches the binding site on the spike protein better


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> If this is true, I've officially lost all hope of covid ever going away.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1413922415550291968
> Since Israel got ahead of the world in terms of vaccinations in December and January, and it's now July and vaccinated people are making up the bulk of cases, we may be seeing the immunity from covid and variants wane after....6 months.
> 
> If that's the case, I don't even know what the plan going forward is going to be, boosters every 6 months?
> 
> Brutal.



Of course we're going to need boosters.  Did anyone actually think the Pharmaceutical industry would let this opportunity slip away ?


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:


> Of course we're going to need boosters.  Did anyone actually think the Pharmaceutical industry would let this opportunity slip away ?


Yeah, because they decide how a disease reacts to a vaccine.   

I suspect the case increase in Israel may be due to the Delta variant.  Early analysis says the Pfizer vaccine appears to be less effective against infections caused by the Delta variant.

Pfizer vaccine protection takes a hit as Delta variant spreads, Israeli government says

Israel says the Delta variant is infecting vaccinated people, representing as many as 50% of new cases. But they're less severe.


----------



## PuckChaser

Altair said:


> If this is true, I've officially lost all hope of covid ever going away.



That's because COVID is endemic, and seasonal. I'm willing to bet we're going to see an uptick of cases again in the fall, just like we always do with flu. The media is definitely trying to milk the fear though, they ignored the last 2 weeks of dropping Ontario cases but had tons of articles about Lambda variant and needing booster shots and when should kids get vaccinated (truthbomb: Kids under 18 don't need COVID vaccines). As more and more major markets start actually assessing risk properly and realize we can manage COVID like every other seasonal illness, then the media coverage will die off as they lose clicks and find another thing to scare people with.

Alberta's cases have gone down since they removed mask mandates... there should have been an uptick if you read CTV and CBC. Guess that means either vaccines work, or masks never worked.


----------



## Good2Golf

Multi-source data re: COVID vaccine efficacy vs COVID Delta variant. (No available data yet for mixes of vaccines)


> The highly-infectious Delta coronavirus variant is causing a surge in COVID-19 casesaround the world, from the US to India. The variant has mutations that help it partially escape the immune response produced by vaccines.
> 
> The data for how well COVID-19 vaccines work against the Delta variant isn't clear cut.
> 
> The World Health Organization said Tuesday, July 6, that COVID-19 vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca worked well against severe COVID-19 caused by Delta, in comparison to other variants. But the vaccines may offer less protection against symptomatic illness — rather than severe disease — caused by Delta compared to other variants, it said.
> 
> Here's how much protection COVID-19 vaccines give you against symptomatic Delta infections, based on the best available data from four studies.
> 
> UK study: Pfizer 88% effective, AstraZeneca 60%
> A UK-based study from May found that two doses of either AstraZeneca or Pfizer's vaccine were highly effective against the Delta variant, from two weeks after the second dose.
> 
> Pfizer​
> 33% effective after one dose, 88% effective after two.
> AstraZeneca​
> 33% effective after one dose, 60% effective after two.
> Canadian study:  Pfizer 87% effective after two doses, Moderna 72% after one dose​A Canadian study posted on Saturday, July 3, found that two doses of a COVID-19 vaccine worked as well against Delta as they did against the Alpha variant, which was previously dominant in the US.
> 
> The study hasn't been scrutinized by experts in a peer-review.
> 
> Pfizer​
> 56% effective from 14 days after first dose, 87% effective after two doses.
> AstraZeneca​
> 67% effective from 14 days after first dose. Not enough data for two doses.
> Moderna​
> 72% effective from 14 days after first dose. Not enough data for two doses.
> ……..(remainder of article at link)


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, because they decide how a disease reacts to a vaccine.
> 
> I suspect the case increase in Israel may be due to the Delta variant.  Early analysis says the Pfizer vaccine appears to be less effective against infections caused by the Delta variant.
> 
> Pfizer vaccine protection takes a hit as Delta variant spreads, Israeli government says
> 
> Israel says the Delta variant is infecting vaccinated people, representing as many as 50% of new cases. But they're less severe.



Delta from abroad, apparently:

*Israel has reintroduced a requirement to wear masks indoors amid a rise in coronavirus cases, just days after it lifted the measure.*
Concern has grown after the country recorded more than 100 new daily cases in successive days after registering zero earlier this month.
Most of the cases have been linked to the Delta variant from abroad.









						Coronavirus: Israel reimposes masks amid new virus fears
					

It comes just days after the last restriction was lifted, as concerns grow over a spate of cases.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## QV

TCM621 said:


> Just to be clear Bret Weinstein isn't a conspiracy theorist he has a PhD in  biology. His wife, Heather Heying, is also a PhD Biologist. They are serious scientists and have been talking with many other scientists, including prominent virologists, for months.
> 
> I'm vaccinated but I think he makes a lot of good points, especially about the lack of scientific rigor that seems to being applied to the mainstream Coronavirus ideas while simultaneously dismissing, out of hand, various claims that have turned out to be just as valid, if not more so.


I'm astonished at the acceptance of censorship in Western society. We are in for some crazy times.


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, because they decide how a disease reacts to a vaccine.



You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe in an altruistic pharmaceutical industry.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> I'm astonished at the acceptance of censorship in Western society. We are in for some crazy times.


A lot of people out there pushing "alternative facts."

Growing up, there were the three American news networks - NBC, CBS and ABC.  

They agreed on the facts.

Opinions varied. But, not the facts.


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:


> You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe in an altruistic pharmaceutical industry.


I don't either.  But on the other hand, I don't believe in the spectre of "Big Pharma" either.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Technically someone wouldn't be fully vaccinated if they require ongoing boosters is what you're saying?


Most of Israel is already at two doses and have been since January.

So we are talking about a third dose here.

Then maybe 6 months after that,a fourth. 

And so on and so forth


----------



## Altair

suffolkowner said:


> it doesn't state whether they are one dose or two. I'm assumming two due to their head start but maybe not?


Most of israel is two dosed, and have been since January.


suffolkowner said:


> It's interesting problem for sure though I was pretty sure that the preliminary data elsewhere was showing different.


I remember those results as well, the immunity was supposed to last longer than 6 months. 6 months is pretty much what they said the immunity was if you got covid and recovered. 


suffolkowner said:


> Curious what variant/mutations are cycling through Israel now.


Delta right now.


suffolkowner said:


> How far the spike protein can be stretched and still bind to the ACE receptor will limit the functionality of Covid variants. So far they seem to be getting better at fit and function instead of the reverse. My reading has suggested that the vaccines are only differing from each other by one nucleotide in a thousand which is very low. We probably will need a booster that matches the binding site on the spike protein better


I hope we aren't looking at boosters for the world every 6 months. At that rate...


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> That's because COVID is endemic, and seasonal. I'm willing to bet we're going to see an uptick of cases again in the fall, just like we always do with flu. The media is definitely trying to milk the fear though, they ignored the last 2 weeks of dropping Ontario cases but had tons of articles about Lambda variant and needing booster shots and when should kids get vaccinated (truthbomb: Kids under 18 don't need COVID vaccines). As more and more major markets start actually assessing risk properly and realize we can manage COVID like every other seasonal illness, then the media coverage will die off as they lose clicks and find another thing to scare people with.
> 
> Alberta's cases have gone down since they removed mask mandates... there should have been an uptick if you read CTV and CBC. Guess that means either vaccines work, or masks never worked.


Or it means vaccines provide protection and thus cases go down. But if israel is the canary in the coal mine, in 3-4 months, we are going to be in trouble. 

Declining immunity, and winter coming.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Strange that vaccination or previous infection doesn't provide 100% immunity.  I've never had another cold or flu after my first ones, long ago.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:


> Strange that vaccination or previous infection doesn't provide 100% immunity.  I've never had another cold or flu after my first ones, long ago.


Then we need to extract your blood/DNA, analyze it, copy it, and then inoculate the rest of Canada. You might be the Omega man.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> Then we need to extract your blood/DNA, analyze it, copy it, and then inoculate the rest of Canada. You might be the Omega man.



Sidebar: The original movie is till the best IMHO ....


----------



## PMedMoe

Brad Sallows said:


> Strange that vaccination or previous infection doesn't provide 100% immunity.  I've never had another cold or flu after my first ones, long ago.


Correction: You've never had the *same* cold or flu. If you've really never had any since your first ones, you truly are a walking miracle.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Sure, variants.  As has COVID.  But the points remain:

1. COVID is unlikely to ever go completely away.

2. Not everyone is going to indefinitely follow the rules desired by the fanatically worrisome among us.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure, variants.  As has COVID.  But the points remain:
> 
> 1. COVID is unlikely to ever go completely away.
> 
> 2. Not everyone is going to indefinitely follow the rules desired by the fanatically worrisome among us.


How true. Riding alone in your personal vehicle with a mask on is a bit over the top.


----------



## suffolkowner

The figure below from the following journal article has a decent outlay of the various variants and the associated mutations, and where the mutations are located






						AAAS
					






					science.sciencemag.org


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure, variants.  As has COVID.  But the points remain:
> 
> 1. COVID is unlikely to ever go completely away.
> 
> 2. Not everyone is going to indefinitely follow the rules desired by the fanatically worrisome among us.


Brad.

Expect some folks in moon suits to approach your residence, and grab some of your DNA.


et house scene - Bing video


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Most of Israel is already at two doses and have been since January.
> 
> So we are talking about a third dose here.
> 
> Then maybe 6 months after that,a fourth.
> 
> And so on and so forth


Lets not stand on ceremony here; we're talking about Canadians not being fully vaccinated by September 30th.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Lets not stand on ceremony here; we're talking about Canadians not being fully vaccinated by September 30th.


Some Canadians started getting their second jabs as early as may. 

So for them, is this Israel date is a guide, their immunity starts to wane in October.

For those with the second jab in august and September,  February and March.  Still not great.

Nice to see you acknowledge that we will meet the September deadline though


----------



## Weinie

Altair said:


> Some Canadians started getting their second jabs as early as may.
> 
> So for them, is this Israel date is a guide, their immunity starts to wane in October.
> 
> For those with the second jab in august and September,  February and March.  Still not great.
> 
> *Nice to see you acknowledge that we will meet the September deadline though  *


Except, we may not be past this.


----------



## Altair

Weinie said:


> Except, we may not be past this.


50.5 million have been delivered, and we need around 60 million for everyone over the age of 12.

If you want to bet against that, be my guest.


----------



## daftandbarmy

All pigs are free on Freedom Day, but some are more free than others  


Getting pinged was a perfect opportunity to lead by example. And Johnson blew it

It was the perfect opportunity to lead by example, and show that nobody is above the rules.

And Boris Johnson blew it. The prime minister’s first instinct, when he was pinged by test and trace on the eve of what he insists on calling freedom day, was not to model the behaviour he asks of the nation, but to try to wriggle out of self-isolating. No 10 announced that he and the chancellor (also pinged) would instead join a special pilot scheme, allowing some employees in critical industries to work as normal in exchange for testing daily.

After the inevitable angry backlash from people who don’t have the option of dodging an enforced spell at home, Johnson swiftly U-turned and promised to hole up at his country retreat, Chequers, after all. But by then, the damage was done. “I know how frustrating it all is,” he said in a video urging people to follow the rules, which arguably only confirmed suspicions that he was doing so very reluctantly. Well, what did you expect? His whole life has been one long pilot scheme in seeing how far he can bend the rules and get away with it. He’s not going to change now.

What makes this episode dangerous, however, is that it comes just ahead of one of summer’s more painful tests of self-restraint, as schools begin breaking up for the holidays. Some families may get the dreaded email, letting them know their child has been in contact with a Covid case and should self-isolate, just as they’re packing for Norfolk or Cornwall. Will they all do the right thing, and cancel? What if it’s the third time the kids have been sent home and each one was a false alarm, and they have a tonne of leftover lateral flow tests that everyone could keep taking and – well, if it’s good enough for the prime minister, would a little secret pilot scheme of your own really be so terrible? A looming “pingdemic”, in which the lifting of restrictions creates a surge first in cases and then in contacts being told to stay home, could expose millions more to similar temptations. It’s no longer clear that a regime already crumbling at the edges can meaningfully hold until mid-August, when it’s due to be replaced by a system in England allowing the fully vaccinated to escape self-isolation if they test negative.

Ministers have already been forced to create a loophole for double-jabbed NHS staff who get pinged. From this week, if they’re needed on the wards they’ll be allowed to carry on working while testing daily, in a tacit acknowledgement that otherwise hospitals will struggle to manage this third wave. The suffering endured by non-Covid patients if operations are cancelled or diagnoses delayed for lack of staff is now thought to outweigh the risk of getting accidentally infected by doctors. But how long before other public services, or critical infrastructure businesses, start pleading for similar exemptions? About 1.6 million people had to self-isolate last week, and while nearly half were schoolchildren, that’s still enough adults off work to see trains cancelled, supermarket shelves lying empty and factories having to interrupt production. Now imagine what the projected summer doubling of cases to 100,000 a day, or worse, might do. A report from Tony Blair’s Institute for Global Change estimates the number self-isolating could hit 10 million by mid-August, enough to bring the country grinding to a halt.

Maddeningly, all this was not just predictable but endlessly and publicly predicted in recent weeks, yet now it’s happening the government seems curiously frozen in the headlights of the oncoming train. True, the decision it now faces is an impossible catch-22. Scrapping self-isolation rules earlier for the fully vaccinated, as Blair among others have suggested, risks infections soaring even higher, but keeping them might mean businesses and services collapsing. “The problem is we don’t know what to do,” an anonymous minister explained to the Mail on Sunday at the weekend. Well, that much is obvious. But doing nothing, and allowing the self-isolation regime to crumble by default as people take decisions into their own hands, is arguably the worst of all possible options. What is the point of a leader, if it’s not to lead?









						Getting pinged was a perfect opportunity to lead by example. And Johnson blew it | Gaby Hinsliff
					

The prime minister’s life is a pilot scheme in seeing how far he can bend the rules, says Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

Numbers from late June:


----------



## brihard

Yeah, Britain and some of the US are in for an ugly month. Near total lack of NPIs in some jurisdictions coupled with a significant portion of the population remaining unvaccinated won’t be pretty.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Yeah, Britain and some of the US are in for an ugly month. Near total lack of NPIs in some jurisdictions coupled with a significant portion of the population remaining unvaccinated won’t be pretty.


And evidence coming out of Israel that after 6 months vaccine immunity starts to wane.


----------



## Weinie

Altair said:


> And evidence coming out of Israel that after 6 months vaccine immunity starts to wane.


I will gladly get jabbed every six months to get past this.


----------



## Altair

Weinie said:


> I will gladly get jabbed every six months to get past this.


132 million vaccines a year is madness.

If immunity wanes after 6 months, lets see if people who are getting infected post full vaccination are fighting off the virus better. 

If vaccinated people are getting covid but largely having mild cases open it up. 

I hope our public health officials and politicians are thinking about the endgame here.


----------



## Good2Golf

Altair said:


> 132 million vaccines a year is madness.


Madness how?  What if it costs less than the costs to the medical system of treating those who contract COVID after their immunization wanes, for example?


----------



## Weinie

Altair said:


> 132 million vaccines a year is madness.
> 
> If immunity wanes after 6 months, lets see if people who are getting infected post full vaccination are fighting off the virus better.
> 
> If vaccinated people are getting covid but largely having mild cases open it up.
> 
> I hope our public health officials and politicians are thinking about the endgame here.


Except, that we in Canada are in the drivers seat, as you continually point out, WRT numbers in a global sense, but yet you can declare this is madness. So what happens when we have the Echo variant evolve outta Asia, and the Foxtrot variant evolve outta Buttphuckistan, both of which are more virulent/lethal and we don't evolve the vaccine? Increasing numbers of deaths, more lockdowns. It will destroy the global economy.  We will be facing this for a considerable period of time given current sit, already seeing the numbers rise in any number of countries.

If, as you postulate, waning means minimal impact, so be it. I'm old, so I have some sense of caution.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Numbers from late June:
> 
> View attachment 65819


What percentage are unvaccinated?

Only thing relevant now are deaths in vaccinated population, which is extremely rare. People in Canada or USA who die of Covid from here in out are the kind of people we don't need around.


----------



## Brad Sallows

How soon we seem to have forgotten the sound of the drum many vaccine-hesitant people were relentlessly beating back when Trump was insisting vaccines would be ready before the election: "we have to be sure vaccines are safe".

No-one knows, or can know, what the 5 or 10 year window of vaccine side effects will be until 5 or 10 years has elapsed.  Be a bit of a downer if there are permanent effects, costs to medical system, etc from pounding vaccines into everyone's arm every 6 months.


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:


> How soon we seem to have forgotten the sound of the drum many vaccine-hesitant people were relentlessly beating back when Trump was insisting vaccines would be ready before the election: "we have to be sure vaccines are safe".
> 
> No-one knows, or can know, what the 5 or 10 year window of vaccine side effects will be until 5 or 10 years has elapsed. * Be a bit of a downer if there are permanent effects, costs to medical system, etc from pounding vaccines into everyone's arm every 6 months.*


Be even more of a downer if the global economy collapses.


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Quirky said:


> What percentage are unvaccinated?
> 
> Only thing relevant now are deaths in vaccinated population, which is extremely rare. * People in Canada or USA who die of Covid from here in out are the kind of people we don't need around. *



All of the people (my wife included) that are immunocompromised or otherwise medically unable to get the vaccine would like to have a word with you about that. Perhaps we should have let this thing kill off all the old folks in the LTCFs last year as well?


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> I think we're probably good on the dogpile folks, the member likely gets the point.
> 
> - Milnet.ca Staff


I just want to point out that this aged like milk.



rmc_wannabe said:


> All of the people (my wife included) that are immunocompromised or otherwise medically unable to get the vaccine would like to have a word with you about that. Perhaps we should have let this thing kill off all the old folks in the LTCFs last year as well?



That has basically been his stance on this for the entire 16 months or so of this discussion thread. He was writing off the elderly in lieu of risking his own day to day convenience right from the get go. The concerns of immunocompromised or otherwise medically vulnerable were put to him many times over many months. His posting history on the subject of COVID killing the old and weak is consistent and gross.


----------



## Altair

rmc_wannabe said:


> All of the people (my wife included) that are immunocompromised or otherwise medically unable to get the vaccine would like to have a word with you about that. Perhaps we should have let this thing kill off all the old folks in the LTCFs last year as well?


While quirky is rude, the point is approaching where we need to come to a decision on what to do if this thing is endemic.

We have a few choices.

1) Open up everything. Virus spreads, runs rampant like in the USA, or UK infecting vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike,with vaccinated people having milder symptoms and unvaccinated more severe symptoms. Pray that our hospitals can handle the strain.

2) Only open society for vaccinated people, lock unvaccinated people out of society for their own safety, as the virus spreads amongst the vaccinated segment of society, hope that with the majority of vaccinated people having mild symptoms, the hospitals can handle the strain. Accept that we live in a two tier society.

3)Lock down all of society and continue to try to to keep everyone alive, vaccinated and unvaccinated,  and pray the economy doesn't collapse and civil unrest start. Hospitals should be fine in this scenario though.


----------



## Brad Sallows

As long as children are not widely vaccinated, many effective vectors are unvaccinated.  High-risk people can choose vaccination to mitigate the risk of fatal or severe illness.  We're in (1); we just haven't accepted opening up yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> As long as children are not widely vaccinated, many effective vectors are unvaccinated.  High-risk people can choose vaccination to mitigate the risk of fatal or severe illness.  We're in (1); we just haven't accepted opening up yet.



We appear to have a good idea of the target population for the fourth wave. From the US ....


As COVID-19 cases rise, 'this is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated,' CDC director says​
Just as the nation seemed like it was turning a corner in the pandemic, COVID-19 infections are on the rise once more, and it's targeting a very specific population: Those who remain unvaccinated.

According to data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on Thursday, July 15, alone there were 33,000 new cases of the coronavirus, bringing the seven day average ending July 16 to 23,600 – an increase of 70% from the previous two-week period.

Hospital admissions and deaths are also on the rise. There were 2,790 hospital admissions in the seven-day period ending July 16, an increase of 26% from the previous reporting period, while the seven-day average for daily deaths has increased by 26% to 211 per day.

Data published by USA Today shows that cases are rising in all 50 states, with some startling increases in certain areas. Rhode Island, for example, saw cases almost triple in a one-week period, with Maine and Vermont following closely behind. Massachusetts, Alaska and Kentucky have seen their cases more than double in that time, followed by Minnesota, Florida and Texas.

Cases are rising fastest in Arkansas, Florida, Missouri and Nevada, all of which have low vaccination rates, according to Market Watch. In all four of those states, less than half of residents are fully vaccinated.

"There is a clear message that is coming through: This is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated," said CDC Director Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky during a news conference on Friday. "We are seeing outbreaks in cases in parts of the country that have low vaccination coverage because unvaccinated people are at risk. And communities that are vaccinated are generally faring well."

In broad geographic strokes, the South, Midwest and parts of the West are seeing the largest case increases, with the counties showing the highest increases sharing the common characteristic of having low vaccination rates.

"In January, we were averaging nearly 200,000 cases per day," said Walensky. "From January to June, we made remarkable progress, where the counties with a high number of transmissions decreased. Now … you can see the recent growth in cases. So while we are in a better position than we were in January through April, this is giving us a reason to double down and get more people vaccinated."

Of course, as viruses tend to do, the coronavirus has mutated into several different variants, with the Delta variant causing the most concern. Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said the answer to overcoming the challenge of new variants is the same as before: get vaccinated.

An estimated half of the population has been fully vaccinated.

"We are dealing with a formidable variant in the Delta variant, as reflected by the data, and the extreme vulnerability of people who are not vaccinated, which will account for hospitalizations and eventually death," Fauci told CNN this week. "These vaccines continue the strong protection against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant."

White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator Jeffrey Zients told CNN that four states in particular have shown some alarming numbers.

"Just four states accounted for more than 40% of all cases in the past week, with one in five occurring in Florida alone," said Zients. "Unvaccinated Americans account for virtually all recent COVID hospitalizations and death."

The four states with the highest number of COVID-19 cases in the country are, in order, California, Texas, Florida and New York, according to statista.

Florida, Zients said, is telling cruise lines and other businesses that they can't mandate passengers show proof of vaccinations status; Norwegian cruise lines is suing the state over it, said Zients. Meanwhile, in California's Los Angeles County and Nevada's Clark County, mask mandates have returned for both indoor and outdoor settings.

"The good news is that if you're fully vaccinated, you're protected against severe COVID hospitalization and death, and even protected against known variants, including the Delta variant, circulating in this country," said Walensky. "If you're not vaccinated, you remain at risk, and our biggest concern is that we are going to continue to see preventable cases, hospitalizations and, sadly, deaths among the unvaccinated."

*WHAT'S THE IMPACT*

How the ongoing vaccination push plays out will determine how the country is able to respond to the latest surge, and will have implications for hospitals and health systems. 

The healthcare industry was rocked in 2020 by a surge in urgent care for coronavirus patients as well as large numbers of deferrals of routine care, which combined to hit hospitals and health systems in their wallets, hard. The median Kaufman Hall hospital operating margin index was -0.6% in January, not including federal Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act funding. With the funding, it was -0.1%.

In May, the Biden administration set a goal of getting 70% of Americans vaccinated by July 4, but the country has fallen short of achieving that goal, threatening the idea of herd immunity, in which a critical mass of the population becomes inoculated and prevents widespread transmission of a pathogen.

Vaccine hesitancy remains a problem, with many Americans reluctant to get their shots or unwilling to do so. In May, a Sermo poll showed that more than 72% of physicians surveyed said that patients continue to voice concerns over vaccine side effects. Still others have reported ongoing misinformation discouraging people from getting vaccines. And close to 30% of physicians reported encountering patients who have skipped their second dose due to unpleasant side effects from the first dose, or concerns over side effects.

*THE LARGER TREND*

As of Monday, there were 190,595,607 confirmed cases of COVID-19 across the world, including more than 34 million in the U.S., which leads the world. The U.S. also leads the world in virus-related deaths, with 609,023, according to the Johns Hopkins coronavirus tracker. 

India is second in the world in terms of cases, with more than 31 million, while Brazil comes in third at roughly 19.3 million. Brazil has recorded the second-highest number of deaths, at more than 542,000, while India has the third-highest death rate, with more than 414,000.









						As COVID-19 cases rise, 'This is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated,' CDC director says
					

Arkansas, Florida, Missouri and Nevada are all experiencing big surges, due principally to the Delta variant and low vaccination numbers.




					www.healthcarefinancenews.com


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> I just want to point out that this aged like milk.
> 
> 
> 
> That has basically been his stance on this for the entire 16 months or so of this discussion thread. He was writing off the elderly in lieu of risking his own day to day convenience right from the get go. The concerns of immunocompromised or otherwise medically vulnerable were put to him many times over many months. His posting history on the subject of COVID killing the old and weak is consistent and gross.


Seems to be the unvaccinated and anti vaxxers are the ones getting this now.  Soon it will only be the ones who have refused to get it based on fear and conspiracies.  Maybe Quirky is on to something about those we don’t need in this society…


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Seems to be the unvaccinated and anti vaxxers are the ones getting this now.  Soon it will only be the ones who have refused to get it based on fear and conspiracies.  Maybe Quirky is on to something about those we don’t need in this society…











						Israeli data seems to show COVID vaccine protection starts fading after 6 months
					

Most of the vaccinated people who have been recently infected got the shot around January, figures given to Health Ministry show; some caution it's too early to draw conclusions




					www.timesofisrael.com
				






> There is a growing correlation between vaccinated Israelis who have been infected with the Delta variant of the coronavirus and those who were among the first to get the vaccine, possibly indicating that the vaccine’s protection fades over time, a report said Sunday.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415804770674122752


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417458890371964949

So the statement that only the unvaccinated and anti vaxxers get it may not hold up past 6 months. The only good news would be that the vaccinated who get it have better outcomes.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Seems to be the unvaccinated and anti vaxxers are the ones getting this now.  Soon it will only be the ones who have refused to get it based on fear and conspiracies.  Maybe Quirky is on to something about those we don’t need in this society…


I certainly hope not. My best friend refuses to get vaccinated. I worked with him. I've known him for 40 years. He lives just around the corner from me.


----------



## Altair

More than 1,000 Israelis test positive for COVID
					

PM Bennett: Vaccine ‘significantly less’ effective against the Delta variant




					www.jpost.com
				






> The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is “weaker” than health officials had hoped, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said on Friday, as over 1,000 people tested positive for coronavirus and more countries were added to the list of places to which Israelis will be banned from traveling.
> 
> “We do not know exactly to what degree the vaccine helps, but it is significantly less,” Bennett said.



Let us all enjoy our fresh immunity, and prepare for when it fades. Unless Pfizer and Moderna can tailor the vaccine to combat delta or any coming variants, vaccinating our way out of this isn't going to work the way we all thought.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416101665019777024
Vaccinated people are going to be vectors for this, and still be ending up in hospitals.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> I certainly hope not. My best friend refuses to get vaccinated. I worked with him. I've known him for 40 years. He lives just around the corner from me.


Was making a cheeky a comment more than anything else.


----------



## Weinie

Altair said:


> More than 1,000 Israelis test positive for COVID
> 
> 
> PM Bennett: Vaccine ‘significantly less’ effective against the Delta variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us all enjoy our fresh immunity, and prepare for when it fades. Unless Pfizer and Moderna can tailor the vaccine to combat delta or any coming variants, vaccinating our way out of this isn't going to work the way *we* all thought.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416101665019777024
> Vaccinated people are going to be vectors for this, and still be ending up in hospitals.


No, that was the way that *you* thought, and continually disabused us on here for our concerns. Vaccination for all by September was your mantra. Sunny ways.

I posted this here yesterday, in response to your post about my willingness to/the potential requirement for getting jabs every six months:

_Except, that we in Canada are in the drivers seat, as you continually point out, WRT numbers in a global sense, but yet you can declare this is madness. So what happens when we have the Echo variant evolve outta Asia, and the Foxtrot variant evolve outta Buttphuckistan, both of which are more virulent/lethal and we don't evolve the vaccine? Increasing numbers of deaths, more lockdowns. It will destroy the global economy. We will be facing this for a considerable period of time given current sit, already seeing the numbers rise in any number of countries.

If, as you postulate, waning means minimal impact, so be it. I'm old, so I have some sense of caution._

You didn't respond, which was unusual. Perhaps you were busy, or didn't see my post.


----------



## Quirky

mariomike said:


> I certainly hope not. My best friend refuses to get vaccinated. I worked with him. I've known him for 40 years. He lives just around the corner from me.


Sorry to say, your best friend is an idiot. Refusing to get vaccinated then using social medical services to keep him alive are the type we don’t need in this society.


----------



## Altair

Weinie said:


> No, that was the way that *you* thought, and continually disabused us on here for our concerns. Vaccination for all by September was your mantra. Sunny ways.


We shall have vaccinations for all by September. That was the part I was not concerned about. How the vaccines preform was always a open question.


Weinie said:


> I posted this here yesterday, in response to your post about my willingness to/the potential requirement for getting jabs every six months:
> 
> _Except, that we in Canada are in the drivers seat, as you continually point out, WRT numbers in a global sense, but yet you can declare this is madness. So what happens when we have the Echo variant evolve outta Asia, and the Foxtrot variant evolve outta Buttphuckistan, both of which are more virulent/lethal and we don't evolve the vaccine? Increasing numbers of deaths, more lockdowns. It will destroy the global economy. We will be facing this for a considerable period of time given current sit, already seeing the numbers rise in any number of countries.
> 
> If, as you postulate, waning means minimal impact, so be it. I'm old, so I have some sense of caution._


In an emergency situation, with a sense of urgency getting 66 million doses into people was achievable. But whether this is achievable on a consistent basis over the long term if this is endemic is another question. 


Weinie said:


> You didn't respond, which was unusual. Perhaps you were busy, or didn't see my post.


I do try to respond to every notification I see, but I do miss the odd one. My apologies.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>this is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated​
Almost as if vaccines have some efficacy at preventing infections.  Now if only they mitigated the severity of cases, so that people would stop losing their nut over case counts.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> lock unvaccinated people out of society for their own safety



What if the unvaccinated people do not *want* society worrying about their safety?

They're just as capable of making that decision for themselves as well as other life choices both major and minor.


----------



## Loachman

Quirky said:


> the type we don’t need in this society.



I could say the same about karens people who make holier-than-thou judgements about others.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> What if the unvaccinated people do not *want* society worrying about their safety?
> 
> They're just as capable of making that decision for themselves as well as other life choices both major and minor.


Then option 1.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> Then option 1.



Acceptable.


----------



## lenaitch

Loachman said:


> What if the unvaccinated people do not *want* society worrying about their safety?
> 
> They're just as capable of making that decision for themselves as well as other life choices both major and minor.



So an unvaccinated-by-choice person interacts with an unvaccinated-by-necessity (immunocompromised) person. Who gets to worry about their safety more?


----------



## PuckChaser

If the vaccine doesn't stop COVID spread then it doesn't matter if someone is unvaccinated by choice, that immunocompronised person should protect themselves knowing their condition and wear a N95. If someone is immunocompromised they aren't just worrying about COVID, literally a rhinovirus could kill them.


----------



## Altair

lenaitch said:


> So an unvaccinated-by-choice person interacts with an unvaccinated-by-necessity (immunocompromised) person. Who gets to worry about their safety more?


yeah, if vaccinated people are getting diagnosed with covid, getting sick with covid, at this point we should assume they are spreading covid.

At this point, we may simply need to accept covid as a fact of life, and immunocompromised people might need to take every precaution to protect themselves from getting covid, from all sources.


----------



## Quirky

Loachman said:


> What if the unvaccinated people do not *want* society worrying about their safety?
> 
> They're just as capable of making that decision for themselves as well as other life choices both major and minor.


If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.


Nah, lets not open that can of worms

Unless you also want to go after smokers, the overweight, drinkers, anyone with a motorcycle...


----------



## FJAG

Altair said:


> yeah, if vaccinated people are getting diagnosed with covid, getting sick with covid, at this point we should assume they are spreading covid.
> 
> At this point, we may simply need to accept covid as a fact of life, and immunocompromised people might need to take every precaution to protect themselves from getting covid, from all sources.



Some of the initial indications are that when even a partially vaccinated person does get Covid then the infection is for a shorter period of time and with a smaller viral load which results in a reduced risk of transmission to others. 

https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...-transmission-vaccinated-cases.pdf?sc_lang=en

🍻


----------



## Altair

FJAG said:


> Some of the initial indications are that when even a partially vaccinated person does get Covid then the infection is for a shorter period of time and with a smaller viral load which results in a reduced risk of transmission to others.
> 
> https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...-transmission-vaccinated-cases.pdf?sc_lang=en
> 
> 🍻


Yes, for sure. Everyone should get vaccinated, as it is still our best bet.

I wont lie and say I'm not discouraged by the data coming out of the front runner nations though. 

Israel is showing bad signs. 

UK is showing bad signs.

USA is bad for other reasons, but data isn't rosy there at all. 

I thought I knew what the finish line of this pandemic would look like, and now I'm just wondering if there is ever going to be a finish line. Was 2019 the last normal year?


----------



## PuckChaser

Altair said:


> UK is showing bad signs.


Really? Because this looks like a pretty good sign. Vaccines have delinked rising cases from rising hospitalizations, which means no more misplaced panic or fear mongering needed.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> Really? Because this looks like a pretty good sign. Vaccines have delinked rising cases from rising hospitalizations, which means no more misplaced panic or fear mongering needed.
> 
> View attachment 65824


No deaths is a good thing. 

Its the hospitalizations that is the warning sign here.


----------



## PuckChaser

No deaths means you're living in a dream world and better get to work on that magic COVID vaccine that is 100% effective against transmission and illness.

Till you figure that out, the rest of the sane world can reduce risk as much as possible while balancing out human rights of perfectly healthy people.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> No deaths means you're living in a dream world and better get to work on that magic COVID vaccine that is 100% effective against transmission and illness.
> 
> Till you figure that out, the rest of the sane world can reduce risk as much as possible while balancing out human rights of perfectly healthy people.


I'm not worried about the deaths.

Its the hospitalizations. So long as hospitals rates rise to the point of stressing the system, public health officials and politicians will hold restrictions over society like the sword of damocles.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Altair said:


> I'm not worried about the deaths.
> 
> Its the hospitalizations. So long as hospitals rates rise to the point of stressing the system, public health officials and politicians will hold restrictions over society like the sword of damocles.



I think that's exactly right. Our creaky broken public healthcare system is a colossal failure. The OECD's data says that we spend more than most other OECD taxpayers for health care but we are down near the very bottom of the heap when they sure "outcomes." Our Canada Health Act funding model ~ single payer ~ doesn't work. Thee's a reason no other OECD nation uses it.


----------



## ModlrMike

The chief problem with our system is one of delivery. We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic. Secondly, there are lots of folks with no sick benefits, and if they take time off for medical reasons, they don't get paid. Therefore, they tend to show up in ER after dinner, creating a large backlog of cases to attend, creating undue stress on the system. We also live in an era of instant gratification. People are unwilling to wait for an appointment, when they can come to ER and have their issue dealt with now.

If we made improvements to primary care - like co-locating a walk-in clinic beside an ER for example, perhaps costs would come down, and outcomes would go up. For example, it costs the system about $700 for you to be triaged at ER, for your seasonal cold. The base cost to the system for a WIC or family MD for the same visit is about $45.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Yea but with the ER visit you might be able to scam some opioids that your personal MD won't prescribe anymore.....


----------



## ModlrMike

Not in Winnipeg. We have a system wide policy of not refilling outpatient narcotic prescriptions. We also have access to the patient's pharmacy dispensing history, so we know when they were last provided opioids. I get some very colourful answers when I challenge patients about their dispensing history.


----------



## mariomike

ModlrMike said:


> We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic.


Funding is also an issue. They told us our funding from the province was based upon the census population of the city. Not its business and visitor population. 

As a result, there are always more people calling for help than the service has been funded for.

Off-Load Delay at hospitals is still a problem, from what I understand. That decreases unit availability, which degrades response times.

The "Baby Boom" generation is aging. As it does so, all of those 'boomers' become net consumers of health care, driving up demand for services.


----------



## Loachman

lenaitch said:


> So an unvaccinated-by-choice person interacts with an unvaccinated-by-necessity (immunocompromised) person. Who gets to worry about their safety more?



Both can worry as much or as little as they wish. That's a personal choice.

There are bazillions of hazards in life. This delightful gift of the Chinese Communist Party is just another one of those, as is skiing, skydiving, living in low-lying areas that have not seen a flood in 99.9 years, or chefs who leave the clam chowder at room temperature a little too long etcetera.

Every adult human being in full possession of his or her faculties is capable of making his or her own threat/risk assessments based upon his or her personal circumstances and taking whatever (legal and moral) measures he or she deems appropriate to reduce exposure to or potential effects of identified risks.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> Both can worry as much or as little as they wish. That's a personal choice.
> 
> There are bazillions of hazards in life. This delightful gift of the Chinese Communist Party is just another one of those, as is skiing, skydiving, living in low-lying areas that have not seen a flood in 99.9 years, or chefs who leave the clam chowder at room temperature a little too long etcetera.
> 
> Every adult human being in full possession of his or her faculties is capable of making his or her own threat/risk assessments based upon his or her personal circumstances and taking whatever (legal and moral) measures he or she deems appropriate to reduce exposure to or potential effects of identified risks.


I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone. 

This nanny state nonsense made sense while we were not vaccinated, but now that we are, we should just be given the choice to decide what risks we want to accept as individuals.


----------



## ModlrMike

Altair said:


> I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone



They've been reclassified as hard right extremists.


----------



## Loachman

Quirky said:


> If only hospitals could turn away unvaccinated people that are dying from Covid. Until that happens, which unfortunately it won’t, getting vaccinated is part of being a functioning member of society - unless you have a medical reason. Personal choice and belief is irrelevant when it affects others around you.



 You may not be so willing to trash the rights of others once somebody has done that to you.

These vaccines as still experimental. They are still under Emergency Use Authorization (in the US) and not fully approved.

"An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) in the United States is an authorization granted to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under sections of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act as added to and amended by various Acts of Congress, including by the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Reauthorization Act of 2013 (PAHPRA), as codified by 21 U.S.C. § 360bbb-3, to allow the use of a drug prior to approval. It does not constitute approval of the drug in the full statutory meaning of the term, but instead authorizes FDA to facilitate availability of an unapproved product, or an unapproved use of an approved product, during a declared state of emergency from one of several agencies or of a "material threat" by the Secretary of Homeland Security." (Wikipedia)

These vaccines also come with risks. They are neither 100% effective nor 100% safe. A relatively small number of people have suffered significant and lengthy injuries from them. People are entitled to make their own medical decisions in a (supposedly) free society - at least until Quirky I assumes the Maple Throne.


----------



## Altair

ModlrMike said:


> They've been reclassified as hard right extremists.


I mean, even Trudeau is against things like vaccine passports.

So I assume classic liberals still exist in the mainstream.

When covid spread unchecked, putting our weak healthcare system at risk, restrictions made sense.

But 80 percent of eligible canadians have their first dose, and it stands to reason if someone was willing to have their first, they will have their second. So we are looking at 80 percent uptake on vaccines.

I don't understand the reasons for this complete risk aversion and nanny state nonsense that we see happening now. I thank god that most premiers are not going down that road, but I am seeing a disturbing amount of individuals like quirky all too willing to have the state and businesses allow for a two tier society, where some people are more equal than others for whatever the reason.


----------



## Good2Golf

Altair said:


> I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone.
> 
> This nanny state nonsense made sense while we were not vaccinated, but now that we are, we should just be given the choice to decide what risks we want to accept as individuals.


Dude, you and others like-minded keep voting for the nanny state that nannies with…yup…your money!  

#shouldntbesurprised


----------



## Loachman

Rand Paul tells 'Hannity' he will be asking DOJ to investigate Dr. Fauci | Fox News Video
					

Kentucky Republican accuses the NIAID director of lying to Congress over whether he funded gain of function research




					video.foxnews.com


----------



## Remius

Loachman said:


> Rand Paul tells 'Hannity' he will be asking DOJ to investigate Dr. Fauci | Fox News Video
> 
> 
> Kentucky Republican accuses the NIAID director of lying to Congress over whether he funded gain of function research
> 
> 
> 
> 
> video.foxnews.com


Yeah, we used to get crazy folks asking us to investigate suspected alien relatives and North Korean radio signals from their fillings when I was in recruiting.  We’d listen but then smiled and told them we’d look into it.  

he can ask.  I’m not sure the DoJ will oblige.


----------



## Loachman

Remius said:


> Yeah, we used to get crazy folks asking us to investigate suspected alien relatives and North Korean radio signals from their fillings when I was in recruiting.  We’d listen but then smiled and told them we’d look into it.



So possible/likely perjury is in the same league as "suspected alien relatives and North Korean radio signals from their fillings"?

Fascinating.



Remius said:


> he can ask.  I’m not sure the DoJ will oblige.



Neither am I, given the current political polarization.


----------



## Altair

Good2Golf said:


> Dude, you and others like-minded keep voting for the nanny state that nannies with…yup…your money!
> 
> #shouldntbesurprised


While this belongs in another thread, I voted for a party that decided that it wasn't up to the state whether someone smoked relatively harmless weed, as opposed to the party that was all for continuing to punish those who did. 

Classic Liberalism


----------



## Loachman

As one who owns relatively harmless firearms, I am not supportive of that choice.


----------



## Good2Golf

Altair said:


> While this belongs in another thread, I voted for a party that decided that it wasn't up to the state whether someone smoked relatively harmless weed, as opposed to the party that was all for continuing to punish those who did.
> 
> Classic Liberalism


But they also Nanny other parts of your life.  How are you reconciling getting the benefit of trouble-free pot with the negative actions as them as Vacci-Nannies?


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Yeah, we used to get crazy folks asking us to investigate suspected alien relatives and North Korean radio signals from their fillings when I was in recruiting.  We’d listen but then smiled and told them we’d look into it.


Right. As a kid I saw other kids in leg braces crippled with polio.  I grew up with a profound respect for medical science. Dr. Salk was a hero to me.

I guess like Drs. Banting and Best were heroes to a generation before.

Later, as an adult, lifting polio victims, what was left of them, out of their iron lungs in family living rooms I thought, "There but for the grace of God go I."

Diptheria, Scarlet Fever, Whooping Cough, Mastoid scars. You don't see that much anymore.

Some people seem to get a kick out of mocking medical scientists trying to save lives. Force them to get security protection. 

That is something I will never understand.


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> You may not be so willing to trash the rights of others once somebody has done that to you.
> 
> These vaccines as still experimental. They are still under Emergency Use Authorization (in the US) and not fully approved.
> 
> "An Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) in the United States is an authorization granted to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) under sections of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act as added to and amended by various Acts of Congress, including by the Pandemic and All-Hazards Preparedness Reauthorization Act of 2013 (PAHPRA), as codified by 21 U.S.C. § 360bbb-3, to allow the use of a drug prior to approval. It does not constitute approval of the drug in the full statutory meaning of the term, but instead authorizes FDA to facilitate availability of an unapproved product, or an unapproved use of an approved product, during a declared state of emergency from one of several agencies or of a "material threat" by the Secretary of Homeland Security." (Wikipedia)
> 
> These vaccines also come with risks. They are neither 100% effective nor 100% safe. A relatively small number of people have suffered significant and lengthy injuries from them. People are entitled to make their own medical decisions in a (supposedly) free society - at least until Quirky I assumes the Maple Throne.



I've seen a few references to COVID vaccines' experimental status (specifically the FDA designation).

Since asking the question on here a few days ago, I've been trying to find more info on the Canadian COVID vaccine approval process, and specifically, how it differs from the conventional process.

Here's a decent a general overview, with a few links to other pertinent Canadian info:






						Health Canada’s regulatory response to COVID-19: Access to health products  - Canada.ca
					

As part of the government’s broad response to the pandemic, Health Canada introduced innovative and agile regulatory measures. These measures expedite the regulatory review of COVID-19 health products without compromising safety, efficacy and quality standards.




					www.canada.ca
				




As to your point regarding efficacy and safety, is _any _vaccine 100% safe and 100% effective?

I'm not in the medical field, but it has been my understanding that _any _vaccine, whether experimental or not, has the potential to cause varying degrees of injury or sickness.

I agree, though, that people must be able to choose.  But that decision must take into account all personal consequences of being in the outlier category, whether those consequences are medical, social, or economic in nature.


----------



## FJAG

Loachman said:


> As one who owns relatively harmless firearms, I am not supportive of that choice.


Your firearm is inherently harmful and probably deadly. The legal presumption is that as its lawful owner you are harmless and will keep it from harming others.

I find the government's classification of firearms into harmless or harmful categories as almost entirely arbitrary.

🍻


----------



## Good2Golf

Yes, some firearms could move into the same category as automobiles; i.e. ‘harmful’


----------



## Loachman

FJAG said:


> Your firearm is inherently harmful and probably deadly. The legal presumption is that as its lawful owner you are harmless and will keep it from harming others.



No, they're not.

Left alone, they are completely incapable of causing harm - just like any other inanimate object.

I do not have to "keep it from harming others", as it/they simply cannot do so.

Regardless of the "legal presumption", 'tis the human operator who has or does not have the capability for causing harm.

The firearm is a tool. A hammer cannot bang in nails by itself.

That is the fallacy behind all "gun control" laws, and the reason why they all fail.



FJAG said:


> I find the government's classification of firearms into harmless or harmful categories as almost entirely arbitrary.



*Completely* arbitrary.

There are no good guns or bad guns (assuming proper design and manufacture) - just good operators and bad operators.


----------



## FJAG

Mick said:


> ...
> 
> As to your point regarding efficacy and safety, is _any _vaccine 100% safe and 100% effective?
> 
> I'm not in the medical field, but it has been my understanding that _any _vaccine, whether experimental or not, has the potential to cause varying degrees of injury or sickness.
> 
> I agree, though, that people must be able to choose.  But that decision must take into account all personal consequences of being in the outlier category, whether those consequences are medical, social, or economic in nature.



The problem with your argument is in the words "persona; consequences" because you are ignoring consequences to others.

It's like when a thief decides to steal from someone else then he must consider his "persona; consequences" which include going to jail but he does not consider the consequences that accrue to the person he steals from in the first place.

We make criminal law for the public good so that when someone makes a poor decision and decides to steal then we will consider the victim and ensure that there will be consequences which will help protect society.

We make public health laws for the same reason; to protect society in general from persons who are a public health risk and who make poor public health choices.

I'm not about to get into the argument about whether Covid is of such a nature that we need to send people who have it into quarantine on an island in the Pacific because, like you, I'm not in the medical field. On the other hand, I'm of the view that the medical experts who do know, and the public officials that we have elected for the very purpose of ensuring our public safety and good government, ought to be the ones deciding what is for the benefit of all of our society in these circumstances and not leave that decision to random people browsing the internet looking for loopholes.

🍻


----------



## Loachman

Mick said:


> As to your point regarding efficacy and safety, is _any _vaccine 100% safe and 100% effective?



No.

And I've never had a problem with past vaccines, and, as mariomike has mentioned, have seen the results of diseases now virtually extinct.

I've never had one that was experimental - and there are often/generally good reasons for not being a guineapig - though. A lot of doctors seem to be questioning these ones. We'll see what the long-term effects are in time.

I don't bother with influenza vaccines, by the way. I simply don't see any real benefit to them in my case, and have faith in my immune system.


----------



## lenaitch

ModlrMike said:


> The chief problem with our system is one of delivery. We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic. Secondly, there are lots of folks with no sick benefits, and if they take time off for medical reasons, they don't get paid. Therefore, they tend to show up in ER after dinner, creating a large backlog of cases to attend, creating undue stress on the system. We also live in an era of instant gratification. People are unwilling to wait for an appointment, when they can come to ER and have their issue dealt with now.
> 
> If we made improvements to primary care - like co-locating a walk-in clinic beside an ER for example, perhaps costs would come down, and outcomes would go up. For example, it costs the system about $700 for you to be triaged at ER, for your seasonal cold. The base cost to the system for a WIC or family MD for the same visit is about $45.


IF they have a family doctor or IF there is a walk-in clinic, both of which are a challenge in many communities.  Agree with the lack of sick days for many.  I often wish to see an ER nurse tell somebody 'you have a cold, go away', but all they can do is triage them into a long wait, which many will still sit for.


----------



## Loachman

FJAG said:


> It's like when a thief decides to steal from someone else then he must consider his "persona; consequences" which include going to jail but he does not consider the consequences that accrue to the person he steals from in the first place.
> 
> We make criminal law for the public good so that when someone makes a poor decision and decides to steal then we will consider the victim and ensure that there will be consequences which will help protect society.



Theft is an ancient and universally-recognized real and deliberate crime. It is not equivalent.

Spitting or deliberately coughing on somebody while infected would be a real and deliberate crime.
I'm not about to get into the argument about whether Covid is of such a nature that we need to send people who have it into quarantine on an island in the Pacific because, like you, I'm not in the medical field.



FJAG said:


> We make public health laws for the same reason; to protect society in general from persons who are a public health risk and who make poor public health choices.
> 
> I'm not about to get into the argument about whether Covid is of such a nature that we need to send people who have it into quarantine on an island in the Pacific



There is a humongous difference between quarantining sick people and quarantining healthy people as we have been doing. That has not been seen to have any benefit, yet has caused many problems that will continue to haunt us for many years to come.



FJAG said:


> On the other hand, I'm of the view that the medical experts who do know, and the public officials that we have elected for the very purpose of ensuring our public safety and good government, ought to be the ones deciding what is for the benefit of all of our society in these circumstances and not leave that decision to random people browsing the internet looking for loopholes.



I most vehemently disagree, having seen their all-over-the-place, flip-flop-and-flip-again, illogical, unproven, inconsistent, and often destructive decrees.


----------



## FJAG

Loachman said:


> No, they're not.
> 
> Left alone, they are completely incapable of causing harm - just like any other inanimate object.
> 
> I do not have to "keep it from harming others", as it/they simply cannot do so.
> 
> Regardless of the "legal presumption", 'tis the human operator who has or does not have the capability for causing harm.
> 
> The firearm is a tool. A hammer cannot bang in nails by itself.
> 
> That is the fallacy behind all "gun control" laws, and the reason why they all fail.
> 
> 
> 
> *Completely* arbitrary.
> 
> There are no good guns or bad guns (assuming proper design and manufacture) - just good operators and bad operators.


I used the word "inherently" for a reason. Your firearm is designed for the purpose of firing a projectile at a high velocity so that it causes damage or harm to whatever it hits. That's inherently harmful.

Personally I think that most of our gun laws are wrongheaded but I certainly believe that we need to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and those who do not have a capacity to use them safely. I also tend to support five-round magazine capacities - arbitrary yes but reasonable. I'm also not fond of full-automatic weapons in the hands of the public even after a family member used to legally own one.

So generally I'm on the side of the collectors, the farmers, the hunters.

So forgive me for saying so, but the argument that a gun is just a tool like a hammer, and completely harmless while it rests on a table as an inanimate object, is why you are failing to convince the public of your cause. What they see is the potential for very serious harm that it can bring both accidentally and if used on purpose to cause harm and very little in the way of cogent arguments to keep them around.

The anti-gun lobby is not as naïve as you think they are. They just don't buy your arguments.

🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy

FJAG said:


> I used the word "inherently" for a reason. Your firearm is designed for the purpose of firing a projectile at a high velocity so that it causes damage or harm to whatever it hits. That's inherently harmful.
> 
> Personally I think that most of our gun laws are wrongheaded but I certainly believe that we need to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and *those who do not have a capacity to use them safely*. I also tend to support five-round magazine capacities - arbitrary yes but reasonable. I'm also not fond of full-automatic weapons in the hands of the public even after a family member used to legally own one.



Like the boss of CANSOFCOM?

Too soon?


----------



## Altair

Good2Golf said:


> But they also Nanny other parts of your life.  How are you reconciling getting the benefit of trouble-free pot with the negative actions as them as Vacci-Nannies?


The provinces are the vacci nannies


----------



## OceanBonfire

Another confirmation these two are effective against the Delta variant:









						Two doses of Pfizer, AstraZeneca shots effective against Delta variant: study
					

Two doses of Pfizer (PFE.N) or AstraZeneca's (AZN.L) COVID-19 vaccine are nearly as effective against the highly transmissible Delta coronavirus variant as they are against the previously dominant Alpha variant, a study published on Wednesday showed.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Why The Delta Variant Is Hyper-Contagious: A New Study Sheds Light
					

New research from China suggests people infected with the delta variant have, on average, about 1,000 times more virus in their respiratory tracts than those infected with the original strain.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Mick

FJAG said:


> The problem with your argument is in the words "persona; consequences" because you are ignoring consequences to others.
> 
> It's like when a thief decides to steal from someone else then he must consider his "persona; consequences" which include going to jail but he does not consider the consequences that accrue to the person he steals from in the first place.
> 
> We make criminal law for the public good so that when someone makes a poor decision and decides to steal then we will consider the victim and ensure that there will be consequences which will help protect society.
> 
> We make public health laws for the same reason; to protect society in general from persons who are a public health risk and who make poor public health choices.
> 
> I'm not about to get into the argument about whether Covid is of such a nature that we need to send people who have it into quarantine on an island in the Pacific because, like you, I'm not in the medical field. On the other hand, I'm of the view that the medical experts who do know, and the public officials that we have elected for the very purpose of ensuring our public safety and good government, ought to be the ones deciding what is for the benefit of all of our society in these circumstances and not leave that decision to random people browsing the internet looking for loopholes.
> 
> 🍻


The point I'm trying to make is, I'm supportive of a person's freedom to choose whether or not they receive a vaccine.  I'm equally supportive of governments', employers', and society at large's freedom to do what is necessary to protect people, whether that is restricting services, changing employment status, etc.  

A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> The point I'm trying to make is, I'm supportive of a person's freedom to choose whether or not they receive a vaccine.  I'm equally supportive of governments', employers', and society at large's freedom to do what is necessary to protect people, whether that is restricting services, changing employment status, etc.
> 
> A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.


Funny, I thought that's what vaccines were for.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Funny, I thought that's what vaccines were for.


At least a significant majority of Canadians are being sensible.

Like I said, those who refuse to be vaccinated can expect consequences, while the rest of us get on with it.


----------



## Loachman

Mick said:


> A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.



So you favour forcing/coercing people to undergo medical procedures - and a still-experimental one, in this particular case - against their will.

Roger.

Where else has that sort of thing occurred in the past, or is occurring now?

What else should people be forced or pressured/strong-armed into doing?

I spent the first sixteen years training and preparing to defend against one of those regimes, had a few personal glimpses of parts of it, and viewed a small piece of its aftermath after it finally fell.

I also know/have known/have had lengthy conversations with people who lived in those sorts of places.

No, thank-you. I have more than enough understanding of how that crap works and I want no part of it. Nobody else would, either, if they had any real idea about what their lives would become.


----------



## mariomike

As of Monday, August 2, all New York City and Hospital staff must show proof of a Covid 19 vaccine, or a weekly negative Covid 19 test.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> At least a significant majority of Canadians are being sensible.
> 
> Like I said, those who refuse to be vaccinated can expect consequences, while the rest of us get on with it.


Uh...huh.

So I guess anyone with a kid under 12 can no longer go out in public as well?


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> So you favour forcing/coercing people to undergo medical procedures - and a still-experimental one, in this particular case - against their will.
> 
> Roger.
> 
> Where else has that sort of thing occurred in the past, or is occurring now?
> 
> What else should people be forced or pressured/strong-armed into doing?
> 
> I spent the first sixteen years training and preparing to defend against one of those regimes, had a few personal glimpses of parts of it, and viewed a small piece of its aftermath after it finally fell.
> 
> I also know/have known/have had lengthy conversations with people who lived in those sorts of places.
> 
> No, thank-you. I have more than enough understanding of how that crap works and I want no part of it. Nobody else would, either, if they had any real idea about what their lives would become.


Did I say that?

Or did I say "freedom to choose"?


----------



## Loachman

Mick said:


> Or did I say "freedom to choose"?



You also said:



Mick said:


> I'm equally supportive of governments', employers', and society at large's freedom to do what is necessary to protect people, whether that is *restricting services, changing employment status*, etc.



Or, in other words, "choose what we tell you to do or suffer consequences".

Some freedom.

Some choice.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Uh...huh.
> 
> So I guess anyone with a kid under 12 can no longer go out in public as well?


Glad we're staying rational here.  

Who said anything about being banished from public life, let alone communism?

But ... those who are unvaccinated may have to contend with more difficulty travelling internationally, quarantine upon arrival etc.

Are YOU in favour of mandating vaccines?  I'm not.  I'm in favour of a person's freedom to choose.  But choices have consequences.


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> You also said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or, in other words, "choose what we tell you to do or suffer consequences".
> 
> Some freedom.
> 
> Some choice.


Part of being in a society.  We live this every day.

edit to add:

Society has norms - those who decide to live outside those norms can expect consequences of varying degree.


----------



## Loachman

Forced medical procedures are not part of being in any free society.


----------



## Mick

Loachman said:


> Forced medical procedures are not part of being in any free society.


Neat.  I agree.  Again, no one is being forced now, and I'm not advocating such measures.  At all.

I am saying that you have a choice, and with that choice comes consequences, such as inconveniences at the border etc.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> A person can choose [x], but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.



Substitute anything deemed undesirable or bad for "[x]".  A guiding principle without limits.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Glad we're staying rational here.
> 
> Who said anything about being banished from public life, let alone communism?
> 
> But ... those who are unvaccinated may have to contend with more difficulty travelling internationally, quarantine upon arrival etc.
> 
> Are YOU in favour of mandating vaccines?  I'm not.  I'm in favour of a person's freedom to choose.  But choices have consequences.


You may need to better explain what you mean by 



> A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Mick said:


> At least a significant majority of Canadians are being sensible.
> 
> Like I said, those who refuse to be vaccinated can expect consequences, while the rest of us get on with it.





Mick said:


> Part of being in a society.  We live this every day.
> 
> edit to add:
> 
> Society has norms - those who decide to live outside those norms can expect consequences of varying degree.



In a broad sense, that's blackmail and coercion. You also need to define sensible. Sensible to you? Or sensible to them, their rights and control of their own bodies?
Societal norms? There has been no such thing in the last two years.
Besides, if they are part of your solution, they'll have been vaccinated. Why are you worried about it? Unvaccinated people pose no risk to you, right?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Society has norms - those who decide to live outside those norms can expect consequences of varying degree.



Bullshit.  If some characteristic of gender, culture, sexuality, ancestry, etc were attached to the overwhelming majority of people affected by this virus it would be taboo to even think about discriminating against them in any way.

Step back in time 35 years and explain what consequences people with HIV should face.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Bullshit.  If some characteristic of gender, culture, sexuality, ancestry, etc were attached to the overwhelming majority of people affected by this virus it would be taboo to even think about discriminating against them in any way.
> 
> Step back in time 35 years and explain what consequences people with HIV should face.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Again, bullshit.  At the time, people were discussing which limitations might be imposed to arrest the spread.  And at the time, people pointed out the obvious discrimination against civil liberties aimed at gay men.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> You may need to better explain what you mean by


A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.


Altair said:


> I'm wondering where all the classic liberals, personal choice and freedoms people have gone.
> 
> This nanny state nonsense made sense while we were not vaccinated, but now that we are, we should just be given the choice to decide what risks we want to accept as individuals.



I am arguing some of those risks include hassles at the border (i.e. quarantine until negative test). Or, employers mandating masks or working from home, or otherwise altering working environments.

There will always be a discussion about balancing the individual rights vs social responsibility.

That's all I'm attempting to express.  Perhaps clumsily.


----------



## ModlrMike

Isn't the whole point of a society a collection of people who work together for the common good?

Is it reasonable that some members of the group do not work towards the common good, yet reap the rewards? Shouldn't action, or inaction have consequences? /rhetorical questions


----------



## Mick

Fishbone Jones said:


> In a broad sense, that's blackmail and coercion. You also need to define sensible. Sensible to you? Or sensible to them, their rights and control of their own bodies?
> Societal norms? There has been no such thing in the last two years.
> Besides, if they are part of your solution, they'll have been vaccinated. Why are you worried about it? Unvaccinated people pose no risk to you, right?


Okay, then let's use the societal norms of the last10 years.

This probably won't satisfy your question, but perhaps "sensible" is broadly defined by the governments we elect, and the experts they rely on?

I'm not "worried" about anyone's vaccination status, I am simply stating that those who _choose_ not be be vaccinated must do so with an understanding of the consequences of that decision.  As more Canadians become fully vaccinated, perhaps these consequences will diminish.

People are free to choose.  I want it to stay that way.


----------



## OldSolduer

Mick said:


> I am saying that you have a choice, and with that choice comes consequences


I tend to agree we all have choices and yes choices come with consequences good or bad.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.
> 
> 
> I am arguing some of those risks include hassles at the border (i.e. quarantine until negative test). Or, employers mandating masks or working from home, or otherwise altering working environments.
> 
> There will always be a discussion about balancing the individual rights vs social responsibility.
> 
> That's all I'm attempting to express.  Perhaps clumsily.


It's very clumsy.

And a slippery slope.

I personally detest smokers.

I do not appreciate cancer sticks.

People who smoke are a net drain on society and a burden  on our health care system.

Should we as a society be talking about balancing individuals rights versus collective good in the case of smokers?


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> It's very clumsy.
> 
> And a slippery slope.
> 
> I personally detest smokers.
> 
> I do not appreciate cancer sticks.
> 
> People who smoke are a net drain on society and a burden  on our health care system.
> 
> Should we as a society be talking about balancing individuals rights versus collective good in the case of smokers?


Maybe we should make them smoke outside.  And refrain from smoking in the workplace.  And airports.

Slippery slope indeed.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:


> Forced medical procedures are not part of being in any free society.



Good Lord, already.  The Charter is clear, and no one (above 12 for now) is being forced to get vaccinated. You insinuation that Canada is forcing vaccinations directly like some sterilization program is ludicrous.  Are there second order effects that may limit how an individual interacts in society? Yes.  Don’t want to get a driver’s license? Don’t drive. Don’t want to buy a gun?  Don’t get a PAL.  How far down the Freeman spectrum of ‘you can’t tell me what to do!!!’ do you want to go?  The Charter says there are reasonable limits to one’s rights and freedoms, to wit:


> 1. Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it *subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society*.
> 
> The Charter protects those basic rights and freedoms of all Canadians that are considered essential to preserving Canada as a free and democratic country. It applies to all governments – federal, provincial and territorial – and includes protection of the following:
> 
> 
> fundamental freedoms, democratic rights
> the right to live and seek employment anywhere in Canada
> legal rights (life, liberty and personal security)
> equality rights for all
> the official languages of Canada
> minority language education rights
> Canada's multicultural heritage
> Indigenous peoples’ rights
> The *rights and freedoms in the Charter are not absolute. They can be limited to protect other rights or important national values*. For example, freedom of expression may be limited by laws against hate propaganda or child pornography.


Enacting limitations deemed appropriate for the health of all citizens does not cause the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to explode…


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Maybe we should make them smoke outside.  And refrain from smoking in the workplace.  And airports.
> 
> Slippery slope indeed.


Yes, why stop there?

Smokers cannot work certain jobs?

Smokers are banned from certain establishments? 

Sounds odd, does it not?

I'm never for letting businesses or governments legislate rights away from people.

Probably because can remember stories about certain people needing to sit at the back of the bus, or drink from the colored fountains, based on the popular opinion at the time.


----------



## Good2Golf

Altair said:


> Probably because can remember stories about certain people needing to sit at the back of the bus, or drink from the colored fountains, based on the popular opinion at the time.


Well…at least you didn’t invoke Godwin’s Law…


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Yes, why stop there?
> 
> Smokers cannot work certain jobs?
> 
> Smokers are banned from certain establishments?
> 
> Sounds odd, does it not?
> 
> I'm never for letting businesses or governments legislate rights away from people.
> 
> Probably because can remember stories about certain people needing to sit at the back of the bus, or drink from the colored fountains, based on the popular opinion at the time.


Uhhh...we did stop there.

You could make the same hysterical argument about any single restriction in society.  Go nuts.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Isn't the whole point of a society a collection of people who work together for the common good?
> Is it reasonable that some members of the group do not work towards the common good, yet reap the rewards?
> Shouldn't action, or inaction have consequences?



Or: the whole point of a society is to have just enough rules to allow each person to live his own life.  There are many examples of reward without contribution (eg. publicly-funded health insurance).  Where would the line for getting what one deserves be drawn?  "He chose to start doing drugs and progressed until he OD'ed on the street.  Let him be; if he dies right there, it's consequences."

If we're going to start imposing consequences, let's start a list:

people who smoke
people who over-consume (food, alcohol, recreational pharmaceuticals)
people who go off the trails in the back country
people who indulge in activities with potentially highly adverse outcomes
vehicles that are too noisy
vehicles that can do more than 20km/h over the highest posted limit
people who can't produce enough to pay for where they choose to live
people who build things where insurance companies won't cover them
people who create obligations they can't meet
Etc.  I'm sure after everyone is done contributing, it won't be short.


"As a society" we've come to the point of indemnifying people against most risks, including foolish known likely ones.  We tolerate a lot of shit which annoys us, because it's someone else's pasttime.  My default position is opposition to any notion that we should start squeezing in exceptions.

At the root of this business of vaccinations is privacy.  Privacy is essential for liberty.  Take a few minutes to try to remember the long, long list of things each person might cherish that is fundamentally protected by an argument starting with "privacy".

It took only a few months to publicize COVID and its risks.  It took years for HIV to enter common discourse, there was always an undercurrent of worry that it would evolve to become more easily transmissible, and it was approximately a death sentence.  Yet we managed to avoid imposing scarlet letters.  If we were dealing with a haemorrhagic fever I'd feel differently, but we're not.


----------



## Loachman

Good2Golf said:


> Good Lord, already.  The Charter is clear, and no one (above 12 for now) is being forced to get vaccinated. You insinuation that Canada is forcing vaccinations directly like some sterilization program is ludicrous.



So in that case I left out "or coerced/pressured".

When "*personal consequences* as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population", ie limitations to hitherto normal activities, are invoked, that is, at a minimum, coercion/pressure and creates a two-tiered society.

If vaccinations work, then the vaccinated have no reason to fear the unvaccinated, and the unvaccinated can freely go about their business using whatever alternative protective measures that they care to adopt (or not).


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Uhhh...we did stop there.
> 
> You could make the same hysterical argument about any single restriction in society.  Go nuts.


You know what, that's fair.

Currently 2 provinces are doing vaccine passports, and one of those, Quebec, has said they won't be a used as a requirement for employment.

The Feds (Trudeau) have come out against it.( in a domestic sense)

So the only ones making inane arguments for some sort of societal restrictions based on vaccine status are people like you.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I recall getting a seasonal flu vaccine, once, only because it was offered free at work.

Every two or three years I've gotten a flu.  It's possible I've been part of a chain of contagion that eventually killed someone.

So this isn't an on/off question, and the risks of COVID are insufficient to justify discrimination.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> I recall getting a seasonal flu vaccine, once, only because it was offered free at work.
> 
> Every two or three years I've gotten a flu.  It's possible I've been part of a chain of contagion that eventually killed someone.
> 
> So this isn't an on/off question, and the risks of COVID are insufficient to justify discrimination.


Especially since there are other easy ways to keep people safe at this point.

Step one. Get as many people vaccinated by non coercive means. Hell, bribe them.

Step two. Rapid testing. Cheap, quick rapid tests can check to see if everyone entering a place has covid. Do everyone. Vaccinated and unvaccinated. If you passed your rapid test for the day you should be good to go. If you didn't, vaccinated or unvaccinated,  go home.

There. Solved the problem.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> You know what, that's fair.
> 
> Currently 2 provinces are doing vaccine passports, and one of those, Quebec, has said they won't be a used as a requirement for employment.
> 
> The Feds (Trudeau) have come out against it.( in a domestic sense)
> 
> So the only ones making inane arguments for some sort of societal restrictions based on vaccine status are people like you.


Nope.   Merely saying that decisions have consequences.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Nope.   Merely saying that decisions have consequences.


Currently the unvaccinated cannot travel internationally to certain places.

Domestically the unvaccinated are facing restrictions in only Manitoba and Quebec, and in Quebec it is only if cases rise, and not to be used in cases of employment.

So yes, decisions have consequences,  but a great deal less than what you seemed to be suggesting.


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> Well…at least you didn’t invoke Godwin’s Law…





Good2Golf said:


> View attachment 65838
> How far down the Freeman spectrum of ‘you can’t tell me what to do!!!’ do you want to go?


I'm sure you are kidding - I think? But, from reading this discussion, I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Currently the unvaccinated cannot travel internationally to certain places.
> 
> Domestically the unvaccinated are facing restrictions in only Manitoba and Quebec, and in Quebec it is only if cases rise, and not to be used in cases of employment.
> 
> So yes, decisions have consequences,  but a great deal less than what you seemed to be suggesting.


I believe I cited travel explicitly.  

And unvaccinated people can most certainly travel, but they will be required to quarantine upon return.  For now.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> I believe I cited travel explicitly.
> 
> And unvaccinated people can most certainly travel, but they will be required to quarantine upon return.  For now.


You didn't



> A person can choose to not get vaccinated, but that person will experience personal consequences as governments, employers, society protect the healthcare system, workforce, general population.
> 
> I am arguing some of those risks include hassles at the border (i.e. quarantine until negative test). Or, employers mandating masks or working from home, or otherwise altering working environments


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> I'm sure you are kidding - I think? But, from reading this discussion, I was wondering the same thing.


No I wasn’t kidding, actually.  There was already a specious link being formed between vaccination and a return segregation…no knowing how ludicrously things might devolve…


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Getting a lot of 'personal freedoms' and 'right to chose' feedback from folks who cut their hair the exact way they were told to for a long time  or face consequences............its not the same thing and yet it is the same thing.   With certain choices come certain consequences.

You didn't have to get a haircut for the change of command parade......


----------



## Loachman

The long-term effects of haircuts are reasonably well known.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:


> The long-term effects of haircuts are reasonably well known.


What about moustaches?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Loachman said:


> The long-term effects of haircuts are reasonably well known.


And it appears that so are the long term effects of not being vaccinated, some travel restrictions, employment restrictions, ...hey, just like not getting that haircut.


----------



## Quirky

This thread is fun.

🍿


----------



## Loachman

Good2Golf said:


> What about moustaches?



Ownership is immensely satisfying.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> You didn't



Ok, well, refer to my references to hassles at the border and  change 'explicitly' to 'implicitly'.

Doesn't change what I've been saying.


----------



## Loachman

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And it appears that so are the long term effects of not being vaccinated, some travel restrictions, employment restrictions, ...hey, just like not getting that haircut.



Hardly equivalent.

And the haircut - and other policies - pre-existed my enrollment and were known and accepted.

Vaccine-based restrictions would represent an unreasonable and immoral midstream imposition.

Assuaging one party's unreasonable fears by putting pressure on another party's personal medical choices is neither reasonable nor moral.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm sure glad I don't have smallpox...


----------



## Weinie

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I'm sure glad I don't have smallpox...


Or Bigpox


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> You know what, that's fair.
> 
> Currently 2 provinces are doing vaccine passports, and one of those, Quebec, has said they won't be a used as a requirement for employment.
> 
> The Feds (Trudeau) have come out against it.( in a domestic sense)
> 
> So the only ones making inane arguments for some sort of societal restrictions based on vaccine status are people like you.



Whatever you say.



> dapaterson said:
> You already require proof of certain vaccinations for travel to certain countries. Some professions require proof of TB testing and, if there's a false positive, a chest xray.
> 
> Requiring proof of vaccination is nothing new... but thanks for reminding me. I have money to invest, and Alcan looks pretty good.





Altair said:


> For international travel, sure.
> 
> For going to a restaurant, bar, sporting event? No.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Whatever you say.


One cannot argue the requirements other countries have in place for entry.

One can argue what domestic requirements are for certain activities. 

I don't bother with the former, and have had a consistent view on the latter.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Weinie said:


> Or Bigpox


How about Monkeypox?


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> One cannot argue the requirements other countries have in place for entry.
> 
> One can argue what domestic requirements are for certain activities.
> 
> I don't bother with the former, and have had a consistent view on the latter.


Fair enough.

I'll restate one last time before giving it a rest:

I fully support the ability of people to choose whether they receive a COVID vaccine or not.

Whatever one chooses, consequences may follow: 

One can choose to receive the vaccine.  Perhaps one will develop health complications down the road.  I strongly believe that's unlikely, but it's a possible consequence I accept.

On the flip side, one can refuse the vaccine.  In the near term, this decision will impact ease of travel (i.e. quarantine upon return) and may affect employment, and probably other aspects of one's life.  One may expect these real and/or potential consequences until a greater number of Canadians are fully vaccinated.

This isn't an inane argument; it's what we as a country are currently living through, until more Canadians are fully vaccinated.  I fully expect the latter consequences to continue to diminish as the number of fully vaccinated Canadians increases.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Regarding choices, I did not choose to be born in Canada; I made an informed choice to join the Res F.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> 2 doses of Pfizer's shot was 88% effective at preventing symptomatic disease from the Delta variant, compared to 93.7% against the Alpha variant, broadly the same as previously reported.
> 
> Two shots of AstraZeneca vaccine were 67% effective against the Delta variant, up from 60% originally reported, and 74.5% effective against the Alpha variant, compared to an original estimate of 66% effectiveness.











						Two doses of Pfizer, AstraZeneca shots effective against Delta variant: study
					

Two doses of Pfizer (PFE.N) or AstraZeneca's (AZN.L) COVID-19 vaccine are nearly as effective against the highly transmissible Delta coronavirus variant as they are against the previously dominant Alpha variant, a study published on Wednesday showed.




					www.reuters.com
				




And another study similar to a previous one weeks ago found that a larger gap between the 2 shots increases antibodies but doesn't last long after the first shot:









						Spacing Pfizer COVID shots boosts antibody levels in long-term study
					

A longer gap between doses of Pfizer's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine leads to higher overall antibody levels than a shorter gap, a British study found on Friday, but antibody levels are not sustained for long after the first dose.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## MilEME09

The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot
					

A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines



					www.bbc.com
				




Anti-vax agencies paying influential social media personalities to spread misinformation. Links possibly to Russia, the information war to destabilize the west via anti-vax and other means is very real.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Delta Force is pounding the USA... possible death rates look grim:

The Delta Variant Will Drive A Steep Rise In U.S. COVID Deaths, A New Model Shows​
In the most likely scenario, Lessler says, the U.S. reaches only 70% vaccination among eligible Americans, and the delta variant is 60% more transmissible.

In that scenario, at the peak in mid-October, there would be around 60,000 cases and around 850 deaths each day, Lessler says.

*Each scenario also includes a range of how bad things could get — the very worst end of the range for the most likely scenario shows about 240,000 people getting infected and 4,000 people dying each day at the October peak, which would be almost as bad as last winter.*

Lessler notes that there's a lot of uncertainty in these projections and that how things actually plays out depends on lots of factors, including whether the vaccination campaign picks up steam and whether other mitigation measures are put back into place.









						The Delta Variant Will Drive A Steep Rise In U.S. COVID Deaths, A New Model Shows
					

New estimates show the U.S. is on track to see a big rise in cases and more than triple the number of deaths by October.




					www.npr.org


----------



## mariomike

This will cover some 314,000 New York City employees. And some city contractors,








						De Blasio to expand COVID vaccine-or-test mandate to all city workers
					

Mayor Bill de Blasio will announce the expansion of the vaccination-or-test mandate to the entire city workforce — all 300,000-plus municipal employees, including the DOE and the NYPD.




					nypost.com


----------



## QV

CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC
					






					www.cdc.gov
				




"CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses."


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "CDC encourages laboratories to consider adoption of a multiplexed method that can facilitate detection and differentiation of SARS-CoV-2 and influenza viruses."


And:

"Such assays can facilitate continued testing for both influenza and SARS-CoV-2 and can save both time and resources as we head into influenza season."

Actually makes sense, so I'm not sure what your point is.


----------



## QV

You don't find it at all interesting when the CDC has to specifically mention to get a test that can differentiate between SARS-CoV-2 and influenza? 

Why is that? 

Wouldn't that have been very important before now? They were locking the whole world down over PCR testing results of mostly asymptomatic people... so hopefully the PCR test could clearly differentiate between COVID and the flu  ... But influenza was practically absent this past year, normally news like that would be a big celebration... How are those lawsuits related to PCR testing going in other countries?

Nothing to see here, move along


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> This will cover some 314,000 New York City employees. And some city contractors,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De Blasio to expand COVID vaccine-or-test mandate to all city workers
> 
> 
> Mayor Bill de Blasio will announce the expansion of the vaccination-or-test mandate to the entire city workforce — all 300,000-plus municipal employees, including the DOE and the NYPD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


New York can do what it wants. 

I'm looking at Alberta.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> You don't find it at all interesting when the CDC has to specifically mention to get a test that can differentiate between SARS-CoV-2 and influenza?
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Wouldn't that have been very important before now? They were locking the whole world down over PCR testing results of mostly asymptomatic people... so hopefully the PCR test could clearly differentiate between COVID and the flu  ... But influenza was practically absent this past year, normally news like that would be a big celebration... How are those lawsuits related to PCR testing going in other countries?
> 
> Nothing to see here, move along


Yeah, I knew that would be your point.  The flu was "practically absent" due to the precautions (masking, hand washing) that were being taken.

Fact check: A swab test is highly unlikely to misdiagnose flu or common cold as COVID-19

Fact check: Can COVID-19 tests be tricked by the influenza virus and other questions answered

Yep, nothing to see here.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Yeah, I knew that would be your point.  The flu was "practically absent" due to the precautions (masking, hand washing) that were being taken.
> 
> Fact check: A swab test is highly unlikely to misdiagnose flu or common cold as COVID-19
> 
> Fact check: Can COVID-19 tests be tricked by the influenza virus and other questions answered
> 
> Yep, nothing to see here.


Well hell. After all these years, billions in research, annual flu vaccines, but still countless and needless deaths due to influenza, who would have thought that some handwashing and bullshit masks would end influenza as we know it? Science. Nothing to see, this is all totally normal.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Well hell. After all these years, billions in research, annual flu vaccines, but still countless and needless deaths due to influenza, who would have thought that some handwashing and bullshit masks would end influenza as we know it?


Published in 2010: The Effect of Mask Use on the Spread of Influenza During a Pandemic

TLDR: "In conclusion, the population‐wide use of face masks can be a valuable strategy to delay or contain an influenza pandemic, or at least decrease the infection attack rate."


----------



## Remius

Everyone should have been aware that hand washing and masks minimise the transmission of the flu.

Welcome to the 21st century.  And the 20th while we’re at it.

none of which is some sort of technological sorcery,   Even the ancient Romans new enough about staying clean to keep away disease.


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Well hell. After all these years, billions in research, annual flu vaccines, but still countless and needless deaths due to influenza, who would have thought that some handwashing and bullshit masks would end influenza as we know it? Science. Nothing to see, this is all totally normal.


Because Internet-educated masses knew better than medically-trained professionals and felt hand washing and mask-wearing wasn’t required, so the flu kept a coming.  If you consider willful ignorance of proven precautions to reduce transmissions as too inconvenient, so then infection rates and associated deaths increase/continue as science, then yeah…nothing (new) to see…


----------



## QV

Delay, contain, or decrease... that goes without saying. But I don't see _almost eradicate_ in there. Come on... 

Do any of you remember this much confusion and contradiction during the other deadly virus events? "Closing borders from hot spots is racist"..."masks don't work"... "masks work"..."no indoor gatherings, but flying on a plane is ok"..."wear masks while having sex"... "the term China virus is racist, new UK variant emerging..." you can go on and on and on.

How many times in history did leading experts in the field speak out against the government/big pharma sponsored narrative like this?


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Do any of you remember this much confusion and contradiction during the other deadly virus events? "Closing borders from hot spots is racist"..."masks don't work"... "masks work"..."no indoor gatherings, but flying on a plane is ok"..."wear masks while having sex"... "the term China virus is racist, new UK variant emerging..." you can go on and on and on.



Yeah, my psychic medium told me that in my previous life in 1918, the pandemic virus was a real bugger too, but that it was mentally more straining to see tens of millions of bodies piled in the streets the than the relative convenience of seeing others die now, through the miracle of the Internet.


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, my psychic medium told me that in my previous life in 1918, the pandemic virus was a real bugger too, but that it was mentally more straining to see tens of millions of bodies piled in the streets the than the relative convenience of seeing others die now, through the miracle of the Internet.


Aren't you fun! You must be a riot at parties!


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Aren't you fun! You must be a riot at parties!


I was apparently even more fun back in the early-1900s!


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> I was apparently even more fun back in the early-1900s!


Was that the last time there was a viral outbreak of some kind before Covid?


----------



## Good2Golf

Well…if you don’t count polio.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Was that the last time there was a viral outbreak of some kind before Covid?


I guarantee you he was at least waging his hands back then.


----------



## suffolkowner

Influenza struck big in 1958 and 1968 again but wasn't as widespread as this pandemic and wasn't as well publicized either. Probably due to differences in mobility and information flow/availability/cycle. Hand washing, avoidance and mask wearing aren't new techniques but the buy in has been better in my opinion


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> Well…if you don’t count polio.


I'm old enough to remember SARS.


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> I'm old enough to remember SARS.


I think QV was referring to global virus, not just the Centre of the universe Toronto.


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> I think QV was referring to global virus, not just the Centre of the universe Toronto.





> The first case of SARS was reported in China in November 2002. The virus then spread to more than 20 countries, including Canada.







__





						SARS in Canada
					

Canada experienced an outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) in 2003. Most of the infections originated in Toronto hospitals. 	The outbreak led t...




					thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

I stand corrected; I inadvertently labelled Toronto as the Centre of the Universe, vice just the Centre of Canada.

…that said, while a high mortality rate and locally traumatic for many, I’m not sure it counts as a global pandemic like the Spanish Flu, Polio or COVID.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Good2Golf said:


> I stand corrected; I inadvertently labelled Toronto as the Centre of the Universe, vice just the Centre of Canada.
> 
> …that said, while a high mortality rate and locally traumatic for many, I’m not sure it counts as a global pandemic like the Spanish Flu, Polio or COVID.


But...but.....Toronto!!!


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> I stand corrected; I inadvertently labelled Toronto as the Centre of the Universe, vice just the Centre of Canada.
> 
> …that said, while a high mortality rate and locally traumatic for many, I’m not sure it counts as a global pandemic like the Spanish Flu, Polio or COVID.


My point was that SARS spread to at least 20 other countries.


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> You didn't have any co-workers in the ICU fighting it. Or, put into quarantine yourself, like I was.
> If SARS had landed in Guelph, or Kingston, or any place other than TO, that would have been ok with me.


Like I said, locally impactful, but honestly, and not trying to be unempathetic, but the 8000 cases world-wide and 770 fatalities on the planet doesn’t out SARS anywhere near Spanish Flu, Polio, or COVID.


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> My point was that SARS spread to at least 20 other countries.


…so on average 40 deaths per country…again, not to be unfeeling, but…


----------



## daftandbarmy

What could be worse than COVID and how can we prepare?

Looks like we're working on that.... from June this year:

'Worse than Covid': Threat of pandemics spurs race for vaccines in 100 days​Researchers and governments want to smash vaccine development records, harnessing technologies such as messenger RNA.​
Hatchett’s group envisions a future in which new vaccines against infectious disease could be created within 100 days, a challenge that Britain and the U.S. are embracing. The U.K.’s Chief Scientific Adviser Patrick Vallance and health philanthropist Melinda French Gates are due to outline a roadmap to world leaders at the Group of Seven summit that starts Friday in Cornwall, England.









						'Worse than Covid': Threat of pandemics spurs race for vaccines in 100 days
					

Researchers and governments want to smash vaccine development records, harnessing technologies such as messenger RNA.




					www.business-standard.com


----------



## dimsum

The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot​


> *A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines. Their plan failed when the influencers went public about the attempt to recruit them.
> *
> "It started with an email" says Mirko Drotschmann, a German YouTuber and journalist.
> 
> Mirko normally ignores offers from brands asking him to advertise their products to his more than 1.5 million subscribers. But the sponsorship offer he received in May this year was unlike any other.
> 
> An influencer marketing agency called Fazze offered to pay him to promote what it said was leaked information that suggested the death rate among people who had the Pfizer vaccine was almost three times that of the AstraZeneca jab.
> 
> The information provided wasn't true.
> 
> It quickly became apparent to Mirko that he was being asked to spread disinformation to undermine public confidence in vaccines in the middle of a pandemic.
> 
> "I was shocked," says Mirko "then I was curious, what's behind all that?"











						The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot
					

A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:


> What could be worse than COVID and how can we prepare?
> 
> Looks like we're working on that.... from June this year:
> 
> 'Worse than Covid': Threat of pandemics spurs race for vaccines in 100 days​Researchers and governments want to smash vaccine development records, harnessing technologies such as messenger RNA.​
> Hatchett’s group envisions a future in which new vaccines against infectious disease could be created within 100 days, a challenge that Britain and the U.S. are embracing. The U.K.’s Chief Scientific Adviser Patrick Vallance and health philanthropist Melinda French Gates are due to outline a roadmap to world leaders at the Group of Seven summit that starts Friday in Cornwall, England.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Worse than Covid': Threat of pandemics spurs race for vaccines in 100 days
> 
> 
> Researchers and governments want to smash vaccine development records, harnessing technologies such as messenger RNA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.business-standard.com


This will get the anti vaxxers up in arms yet again.  I’m amazed that people can’t see that as tech advances so does the speed at which we can create and develop.


----------



## ModlrMike

The difference between the past and now, is that unlike the past where we needed to create the tech simultaneously with the vaccine, today we're using existing tech to create the vaccine. The mRNA tech has been around for 20 years, as has PCR technology. They were just used for different purposes. 

I consider COVID a sentinel event. I truly believe that there is something worse out there, and we need to be prepared for it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Hand washing, avoidance and mask wearing



Sure, if "avoidance" includes plummeting ridership on transit vehicles, remarkably reduced crowd sizes in shopping malls, and locking the kids up at home.  I suppose any one of those three is much more highly effective than handwashing and mask wearing, but theatre is always more important than life.


----------



## Quirky

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure, if "avoidance" includes plummeting ridership on transit vehicles, *remarkably reduced crowd sizes in shopping malls, and locking the kids up at home*.  I suppose any one of those three is much more highly effective than handwashing and mask wearing, but theatre is always more important than life.


I support this.


----------



## Remius

I know that science can be scary for people who don’t understand it.  That fear also comes from those pushing conspiracies and make themselves into the spokesperson.  Like Jennifer McCarthy.  But hey she was on bay watch.

if I went back in time to the Middle Ages and started talking about all the advances we made in the 21st century I’d likely be burned at the stake.  Luckily we live in a day and age where the pitchfork carrying luddites are in the minority and tend to be more mouth than anything else.


----------



## ModlrMike

That's because pitchforks are pointy, and therefore dangerous, and therefore can kill, and therefore must be taken away...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> I know that science can be scary for people who don’t understand it.


I wonder if someone said that to the participants of the Tuskegee Study


----------



## mariomike

Sorry,


Remius said:


> Luckily we live in a day and age where the pitchfork carrying luddites are in the minority and tend to be more mouth than anything else.


Luckily, we don't get around on the backs of animals around anymore, so have much less need for pitchforks.


----------



## Altair

Edit:Wrong thread.


----------



## MilEME09

Covid in Sydney: Military deployed to help enforce lockdown
					

Authorities say the deployment is needed, but critics argue it will "pick on" marginalised groups.



					www.bbc.com
				




Little bit crazy down under


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:


> That's because pitchforks are pointy, and therefore dangerous, and therefore can kill, and therefore must be taken away...


I like pitchforks.....


----------



## dimsum

MilEME09 said:


> Covid in Sydney: Military deployed to help enforce lockdown
> 
> 
> Authorities say the deployment is needed, but critics argue it will "pick on" marginalised groups.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little bit crazy down under


What they failed to mention in the article is that the ADF did the same thing last year when quarantine, etc was invoked in Australia.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Suckers.

Two Travellers Were Fined Nearly $20K Each For Using Fake COVID-19 Documents At Pearson​Link


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dimsum said:


> The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot
> 
> 
> A mysterious marketing agency secretly offered to pay social media stars to spread disinformation about Covid-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Not Anti-vaccers, but either a government or a competitor


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> Not Anti-vaccers, but either a government or a competitor


That’s got foreign influence ops written all over it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

OldSolduer said:


> I like pitchforks.....


And torches. Everyone likes fire. They also seem to trigger the left for some reason. So that's a free bonus right there. 😆


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> And torches. Everyone likes fire. They also seem to trigger the left for some reason. So that's a free bonus right there. 😆


Can we not make this thread political?  Plenty of places to insult others elsewhere on this site.


----------



## OldSolduer

Fishbone Jones said:


> And torches. Everyone likes fire. They also seem to trigger the left for some reason. So that's a free bonus right there. 😆


BaHAHA.

I don't like mobs though.


----------



## hattrick72

Wow, there are some real good candidates for Ordinary Men commenting in here.....

I got the jabs so I wouldn't have career restrictions, my wife got the jabs back in January so she could travel to the US when the border reopens and visit family. Neither one of us would've got the jabs if we couldn't gaurantee getting them at the prescribed interval. Nevermind mixing and matching vaccines...... 

Unless I am mandated to get boosters, I'm not getting the boosters. My wife and I both agree, when the vaccine is approved for kids under 12, ours will not be getting the jab. If that means one of us have to quit our job to home school our kids, so be it. We just can't justify putting our kids at risk when the virus has a minimal impact on children. In five years, when the dust settles and we see the myocarditis and other side effects are indeed not serious, we will allow them to be vaccinated. 

Imagine not being told you get a fever after a vaccine, how concerning would it be to you if a strong fever developed a day after inoculation? My wife is a nurse at a correction facility, every female inmate that got their second dose of Moderna started their menstrual cycle the next day. Some had their cycle five days prior, others already through menopause, and a few going through conversion therapy also started, despite their drugs. The mensuration lasted 4-7 days. It was a "known" side effect that may affect some women, but nothing official because they are now started
 to study it in February. My wife was quite surprised when it affected every inmate that chose to get the second dose and not just 30-50%. 

In my opinion the messaging has been terrible since the start of the pandemic. I understand that the government wants everyone to get inoculated because they feel it is in everyone's best interest. I cannot fathom why they would encourage people to get AZ when other countries were pausing for further investigation. We then went ahead and paused it after a bunch of people followed the advice and got their jab. This lead to the NACI to say it is okay to mix and match vaccines and it may give more immunity. Fast forward a month and the WHO/CDC state that mix and match isn't studied and advises against it.... So we have political influence to mitigate the damage the vaccine rollout has caused and they look to be dictating science and policy. Now we have Canadians that can't travel as the majority of the world believe they are unvaccinated.

My mother in law is immunocompromised, she was infected with the virus twice in the last year, and recovered in under a week with only minor symptoms. She is now vaccinated with JJ and hasn't caught the virus despite living in a US hot spot. 

I just don't see the need to segregate society based on a vaccine, but I understand that society feels much differently. If as a society we decide to segregate based on vaccine status, I will happily accept the consequence of home schooling and a reduced family income.


----------



## hattrick72

ModlrMike said:


> The chief problem with our system is one of delivery. We have infinite demand, and too many people are too eager to come to ER for even the most minor issues, when they could see their own MD or go to a walk-in clinic. Secondly, there are lots of folks with no sick benefits, and if they take time off for medical reasons, they don't get paid. Therefore, they tend to show up in ER after dinner, creating a large backlog of cases to attend, creating undue stress on the system. We also live in an era of instant gratification. People are unwilling to wait for an appointment, when they can come to ER and have their issue dealt with now.
> 
> If we made improvements to primary care - like co-locating a walk-in clinic beside an ER for example, perhaps costs would come down, and outcomes would go up. For example, it costs the system about $700 for you to be triaged at ER, for your seasonal cold. The base cost to the system for a WIC or family MD for the same visit is about $45.


I agree with this. It is pathetic that in Canada, walk-in clinics are only open during business hours. Very few are open on weekends and if they are, they are open from 1100-1500, and only take 44 patients. If you go with a single symptom of COVID, you must have a negative test result before you can be seen........ So sinus infection, go get that test, wait to to 3 days and go to walk in clinic. Or go to ER and wait your turn, which can be hours. 

Walk in clinic next to ER manned 24 hours would be a great start. 

In the US, I fell at the theater and smoked my knee off the stair. Walked into a walk in clinic at 2230, and was out of there by 2330 with an MRI in hand. Got an ear infection, woke up in pain at 0330, went to walk in clinic 15 minutes drive away, came out with ear drops to treat the infection before 0430.

We are going to be living with COVID for a long time, the health care system has had a year to get prepared. We need to really start thinking about providing full services for surgeries, cancer, specialist appointments et. all without shutting down during an outbreak. Why did 80% of the population get vaccinated if we can't provide regular services for every Canadian.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PMedMoe said:


> Can we not make this thread political?  Plenty of places to insult others elsewhere on this site.


This thread by its very being, is political. Right, left, conservative or liberal. It's all here and all political. This thread would not exist, except for politics.


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> This thread by its very being, is political. Right, left, conservative or liberal. It's all here and all political. This thread would not exist, except for politics.



Actually, there is a *political* COVID thread: CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

Either way, I still think the insults are unnecessary.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Fishbone Jones said:


> This thread by its very being, is political. Right, left, conservative or liberal. It's all here and all political. This thread would not exist, except for politics.


----------



## daftandbarmy

More good news.... if you're into marathons vs. sprints:

*Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now

New CDC data makes the dangers of the delta variant clear — we have to face that we're in this for the long haul*





The message of the Centers for Disease Control's documents obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Times on Friday isn't specified in those documents themselves, but in one epidemiologist's reaction to them. "Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections," Dr. Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, told the Post.

If you're like me, you will probably need a moment to let that sink in. Until Friday morning, July 30, 2021, herd immunity was the goal we were all working towards. Remember when President Biden set his goal of vaccinating 70 percent of the population by July 4? What followed was an extended discussion among experts and politicians about whether that goal would amount to the country reaching "herd immunity." The hope was that COVID would turn out to be similar to chicken pox or measles or polio, diseases for which herd immunity was long ago reached with vaccines. When enough people had been vaccinated, those diseases simply went away, with only occasional outbreaks of measles in communities which lost their herd immunity, due largely to anti-vaccine movements.

Most experts believed that it would take vaccinating somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of Americans for the country to reach something resembling herd immunity. The fact that COVID is a global pandemic, with many countries in the developing world lacking widespread vaccine distribution, argued against the kind of herd immunity eventually reached against diseases like polio. Still, the goal seemed within reach if enough of us could be convinced to get vaccinated. At that point, it was hoped, normal life in this country could resume, with people eating in restaurants, going to the movies, attending concerts, singing in church choirs, playing sports and attending school uninhibited by requirements to social distance or keep wearing masks.

On Friday, that hope went out the door. The CDC internal health document obtained by the Post and the Times urges federal health officials to "acknowledge the war has changed." What changed the CDC's approach to COVID was "unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated," according to the Post.

Herd immunity has to do with transmissibility. A disease goes away when enough people become immune to the infectious agent such that it can no longer be transmitted among a population. The CDC on Friday essentially admitted that being vaccinated against COVID doesn't make you immune. You can still contract the disease, especially the delta variant, and having become infected, you can still transmit the disease to others whether you have symptoms or not.

If you get down in the weeds of the CDC findings, you find that the lack of immunity provided by the current vaccines has to do with the way the antibodies produced by the vaccines act within the body. When the COVID vaccines are injected, the antibodies produced by the human immune system appear mostly in the blood. "Some antibodies may make their way into the nose, the main port of entry for the virus, but not enough to block it," the Times reported Friday. "The Delta variant seems to flourish in the nose, and its abundance may explain why more people than scientists expected are experiencing break-through infections and cold-like symptoms."

Vaccinated people can spread the virus almost as easily as unvaccinated people because the so-called "viral loads" in their noses and upper respiratory tracts can be nearly as strong as in unvaccinated people. When vaccinated people become infected, the virus attempts to travel from the nose and throat into the lungs. This is where the antibodies built up by the vaccines go to work, preventing a severe enough infection to need hospitalization.

"The vaccines — they're beautiful, they work, they're amazing," Dr. Frances Lund, a viral immunologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, told the Times. "But they're not going to give you that local immunity." Vaccinated people will be contagious for a much shorter time, Dr. Lund told the Times. "But that doesn't mean that in those first couple of days, when they're infected, they can't transmit it to somebody else."

There's the rub about COVID. Since vaccinated people can still "catch" the delta variant of COVID and transmit it to other people almost as easily as unvaccinated people, "in some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease," Dr. Shaman, the Columbia University epidemiologist told the Post. So it's not about the "herd," it's just about you.

This is why the CDC's findings this week are a game-changer. It's also why the CDC has released new guidelines suggesting a return to mask-wearing, even among vaccinated people, in areas of the country that are experiencing an uptick in breakouts of the disease. Getting the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting the disease, and it doesn't keep you from spreading it.

Of course, this might raise the question among the unvaccinated of why they should get the vaccine at all. If everybody can still get the disease and spread it to the extent that the CDC is going back to saying we've got to wear masks again – _all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike _– what's the use?

For one thing, all the available vaccines provide protection against coming down with a bad enough case of the disease that you'll need to be hospitalized and run the risk of dying. And vaccines at least lower the possibility that you'll contract the disease and be likely to spread it. So we've gone from expecting that the vaccines will make us immune to the knowledge that the vaccines will protect us from severe infection and the symptoms of "long COVID" and the possibility of dying from the disease.

The message is, COVID is as contagious as chicken pox, Ebola or the common cold, and getting vaccinated isn't going to prevent you from catching it. But it will save your life.

That is a more nuanced argument for the vaccines, and it will have to be the argument that health care professionals and politicians take to the population that isn't yet vaccinated. Telling them that getting vaccinated is some kind of cure-all would be a lie, so tell them the truth.

I think the other thing the CDC findings published on Friday tell us is that the unvaccinated population is no longer "the problem." They are part of the problem, because they can of course catch the disease and spread it, but, as we just learned, so can those of us who are vaccinated. We may be returning to the point where "the problem," if there is one, is more about people who refuse to adhere to mask mandates, or those politicians who, faced with outbreaks of the disease, refuse to impose them.

If there is an enemy in the war against COVID it's the virus itself, which is far more virulent than we knew. It is mutating, and mutations like the delta variant are making the disease much worse than it was in the beginning. I think we will have to assume that there will be new mutations, new variants, meaning this disease is going to be with us in one form or another for years – maybe forever, like the seasonal flu and the common cold. We're going to have to learn to live with the disease even if more and more Americans come around to getting vaccinated, because while the vaccine may protect us as individuals, it will never protect us as the "herd" we hoped to become by getting vaccinated. We're never going to reach herd immunity, but it behooves us as a nation to reach a herd understanding that for better or worse, we're all in this together.



Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now


----------



## Quirky

Alberta is moving in the right direction as of August 16th, will be interesting to see how many more people lose their minds over their policies.


----------



## dapaterson

Stopping testing, stopping isolation, stopping asking... most are more worried about people losing their lives over Alberta's policies.


----------



## Quirky

Only those who refuse to get vaccinated should worry. Get your shot go live your life. Albertas model will be followed when the rest of Canada sees their streets aren’t lined with corpses.


----------



## PMedMoe

Quirky said:


> Only those who refuse to get vaccinated should worry. Get your shot go live your life. Albertas model will be followed when the rest of Canada sees their streets aren’t *lined with corpses*.


Exaggerate much?


----------



## MilEME09

As an Albertan I think the policy shift is a dumb move, removing the requirements to isolate if testing positive or symptomatic and only making it recommended is a bad choice. We have already learned that people, especially those who don't believe in the vaccine won't listen to the rules any way, so they won't follow the recommended advice.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Albertas model will be followed when the rest of Canada sees their streets aren’t lined with corpses.


----------



## hattrick72

daftandbarmy said:


> More good news.... if you're into marathons vs. sprints:
> 
> *Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now
> 
> New CDC data makes the dangers of the delta variant clear — we have to face that we're in this for the long haul*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The message of the Centers for Disease Control's documents obtained by the Washington Post and the New York Times on Friday isn't specified in those documents themselves, but in one epidemiologist's reaction to them. "Herd immunity is not relevant as we are seeing plenty of evidence of repeat and breakthrough infections," Dr. Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist, told the Post.
> 
> If you're like me, you will probably need a moment to let that sink in. Until Friday morning, July 30, 2021, herd immunity was the goal we were all working towards. Remember when President Biden set his goal of vaccinating 70 percent of the population by July 4? What followed was an extended discussion among experts and politicians about whether that goal would amount to the country reaching "herd immunity." The hope was that COVID would turn out to be similar to chicken pox or measles or polio, diseases for which herd immunity was long ago reached with vaccines. When enough people had been vaccinated, those diseases simply went away, with only occasional outbreaks of measles in communities which lost their herd immunity, due largely to anti-vaccine movements.
> 
> Most experts believed that it would take vaccinating somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of Americans for the country to reach something resembling herd immunity. The fact that COVID is a global pandemic, with many countries in the developing world lacking widespread vaccine distribution, argued against the kind of herd immunity eventually reached against diseases like polio. Still, the goal seemed within reach if enough of us could be convinced to get vaccinated. At that point, it was hoped, normal life in this country could resume, with people eating in restaurants, going to the movies, attending concerts, singing in church choirs, playing sports and attending school uninhibited by requirements to social distance or keep wearing masks.
> 
> On Friday, that hope went out the door. The CDC internal health document obtained by the Post and the Times urges federal health officials to "acknowledge the war has changed." What changed the CDC's approach to COVID was "unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated," according to the Post.
> 
> Herd immunity has to do with transmissibility. A disease goes away when enough people become immune to the infectious agent such that it can no longer be transmitted among a population. The CDC on Friday essentially admitted that being vaccinated against COVID doesn't make you immune. You can still contract the disease, especially the delta variant, and having become infected, you can still transmit the disease to others whether you have symptoms or not.
> 
> If you get down in the weeds of the CDC findings, you find that the lack of immunity provided by the current vaccines has to do with the way the antibodies produced by the vaccines act within the body. When the COVID vaccines are injected, the antibodies produced by the human immune system appear mostly in the blood. "Some antibodies may make their way into the nose, the main port of entry for the virus, but not enough to block it," the Times reported Friday. "The Delta variant seems to flourish in the nose, and its abundance may explain why more people than scientists expected are experiencing break-through infections and cold-like symptoms."
> 
> Vaccinated people can spread the virus almost as easily as unvaccinated people because the so-called "viral loads" in their noses and upper respiratory tracts can be nearly as strong as in unvaccinated people. When vaccinated people become infected, the virus attempts to travel from the nose and throat into the lungs. This is where the antibodies built up by the vaccines go to work, preventing a severe enough infection to need hospitalization.
> 
> "The vaccines — they're beautiful, they work, they're amazing," Dr. Frances Lund, a viral immunologist at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, told the Times. "But they're not going to give you that local immunity." Vaccinated people will be contagious for a much shorter time, Dr. Lund told the Times. "But that doesn't mean that in those first couple of days, when they're infected, they can't transmit it to somebody else."
> 
> There's the rub about COVID. Since vaccinated people can still "catch" the delta variant of COVID and transmit it to other people almost as easily as unvaccinated people, "in some sense, vaccination is now about personal protection — protecting oneself against severe disease," Dr. Shaman, the Columbia University epidemiologist told the Post. So it's not about the "herd," it's just about you.
> 
> This is why the CDC's findings this week are a game-changer. It's also why the CDC has released new guidelines suggesting a return to mask-wearing, even among vaccinated people, in areas of the country that are experiencing an uptick in breakouts of the disease. Getting the vaccine doesn't keep you from getting the disease, and it doesn't keep you from spreading it.
> 
> Of course, this might raise the question among the unvaccinated of why they should get the vaccine at all. If everybody can still get the disease and spread it to the extent that the CDC is going back to saying we've got to wear masks again – _all of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike _– what's the use?
> 
> For one thing, all the available vaccines provide protection against coming down with a bad enough case of the disease that you'll need to be hospitalized and run the risk of dying. And vaccines at least lower the possibility that you'll contract the disease and be likely to spread it. So we've gone from expecting that the vaccines will make us immune to the knowledge that the vaccines will protect us from severe infection and the symptoms of "long COVID" and the possibility of dying from the disease.
> 
> The message is, COVID is as contagious as chicken pox, Ebola or the common cold, and getting vaccinated isn't going to prevent you from catching it. But it will save your life.
> 
> That is a more nuanced argument for the vaccines, and it will have to be the argument that health care professionals and politicians take to the population that isn't yet vaccinated. Telling them that getting vaccinated is some kind of cure-all would be a lie, so tell them the truth.
> 
> I think the other thing the CDC findings published on Friday tell us is that the unvaccinated population is no longer "the problem." They are part of the problem, because they can of course catch the disease and spread it, but, as we just learned, so can those of us who are vaccinated. We may be returning to the point where "the problem," if there is one, is more about people who refuse to adhere to mask mandates, or those politicians who, faced with outbreaks of the disease, refuse to impose them.
> 
> If there is an enemy in the war against COVID it's the virus itself, which is far more virulent than we knew. It is mutating, and mutations like the delta variant are making the disease much worse than it was in the beginning. I think we will have to assume that there will be new mutations, new variants, meaning this disease is going to be with us in one form or another for years – maybe forever, like the seasonal flu and the common cold. We're going to have to learn to live with the disease even if more and more Americans come around to getting vaccinated, because while the vaccine may protect us as individuals, it will never protect us as the "herd" we hoped to become by getting vaccinated. We're never going to reach herd immunity, but it behooves us as a nation to reach a herd understanding that for better or worse, we're all in this together.
> 
> 
> 
> Will things ever return to normal? It doesn't look that way right now


I find China's response to the Delta variant interesting. 

They are not issuing new passports or renewing passports at this time. If you travel there it is a 21 day quarantine in an airport hotel, followed by a 14 day quarantine at the province you are traveling to in hotel, then 7 days isolation at your hotel or apartment before you are able to travel freely. 

This variant may very well be as scary as the CDC is saying.


----------



## PuckChaser

So you're basing the seriousness of the variant solely on how much tyranny the CCP is willing to impose on people? A 42 day quarantine for a virus that has an incubation period of 3-7 days (typically, can max out at 14) is just ridiculous.

The UK just had it's 4th wave. 72% of the population is fully vaccinated. It lasted a week, and they removed mandatory mask mandates. 70% eligible (18+) is clearly the line where the fear mongering over case counts can stop. The UK has just proven that level of vaccination (and they're not wasting doses on teenagers) effectively delinks rising cases from hospitalization rates. Daily summary | Coronavirus in the UK


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:


> proven



Nothing is 'proven" about covid,.....and probably won't be for years and years.   To use that word on whatever "side" you're on is totally wrong.


----------



## PuckChaser

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nothing is 'proven" about covid,.....and probably won't be for years and years.   To use that word on whatever "side" you're on is totally wrong.


Except for cloth masks, lockdowns and kids being super spreaders, right? Those are legit proven where actual science and data that goes against the "COVID-19 is the worst pandemic ever" narrative is just misinformation? This has to be the least scientific pandemic in human history, where you cannot even use the scientific method to question hypothesis or find alternate COAs. We might as well wear plague masks filled with garlic or piss on rags to cover our noses from the COVID-19 fumes...

Give me a break.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:


> Except for cloth masks, lockdowns and kids being super spreaders, right?
> 
> Give me a break.



Nope,...that could be found out to be all bullshit also.


----------



## Quirky

MilEME09 said:


> As an Albertan I think the policy shift is a dumb move, removing the requirements to isolate if testing positive or symptomatic and only making it recommended is a bad choice. We have already learned that people, especially those who don't believe in the vaccine won't listen to the rules any way, so they won't follow the recommended advice.



Crazy part is, the same people that were "follow Dr. Hinshaws advise" during the pandemic are now doing a 180 and are completely against her new policy. These new policies are backed by science, which people just don't like - it hurts their feelings and they likely find it offensive that Alberta has moved past the pandemic. Anti-vaxxers and vaccinated aren't self-isolating anyway at this point, no one is. If a few vaccinated get screwed up because of it, that's their own fault. They're basically managing it like any other virus now. Get your vaccines and move on, this is going to be the new norm now.


----------



## PMedMoe

Quirky said:


> These new policies are backed by science


Got a link for the science backing the proposed policy changes?

'Throwing caution to the wind': Experts react to Alberta’s changing quarantine policy

Ryan Imgrund, a COVID-19 biostatistician from Sudbury, Ont., working with public health units in the province, told CTV News that Alberta is an outlier when it comes to policy responding to the pandemic and reproductive values.

“*The data and the science is definitely not guiding the policy in Alberta*,” he said. “As far as I know right now, Alberta is the only place in the world that will be allowing COVID positive people to not have to self-isolate,” he added.

“The only place in the world. We are talking Florida, the United Kingdom; all those places, they not only require someone that is COVID positive to self-isolate, but they also require those that are close contacts to also isolate as well.”


----------



## Altair

MilEME09 said:


> As an Albertan I think the policy shift is a dumb move, removing the requirements to isolate if testing positive or symptomatic and only making it recommended is a bad choice. We have already learned that people, especially those who don't believe in the vaccine won't listen to the rules any way, so they won't follow the recommended advice.


The UK had freedom day not so long ago.

Their cases rose  but are now falling. Alberta is much closer to the UK in vaccination rates than US states, so I think we will be seeing that. A brief, intense rise of covid cases followed by a drop off, as there are simply less targets for the virus to spread to.

Of course a key difference is the NHS is much better equipped to handle a surge than the Canadian Healthcare system


----------



## QV

And another... 









						Israeli scientist says COVID-19 could be treated for under $1/day
					

Double-blind study shows ivermectin reduces disease’s duration and infectiousness • FDA and WHO caution against its use




					www.jpost.com


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> And another...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli scientist says COVID-19 could be treated for under $1/day
> 
> 
> Double-blind study shows ivermectin reduces disease’s duration and infectiousness • FDA and WHO caution against its use
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jpost.com


Did you need to post this in two different threads?

I say again, a study that only involved 89 people.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Did you need to post this in two different threads?
> 
> I say again, a study that only involved 89 people.


Do you have anything useful to say? I see you continue to ignore all of the other studies too.

Don't bother arguing with me, you can take your argument up with experts on the topic that carried out the studies.  

I just posted a link to yet another study supporting ivermectin use in COVID cases. You'd think this would be a big deal, after all the whole WORLD is fighting this pandemic, every tool in the tool box can help.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Do you have anything useful to say? I see you continue to ignore all of the other studies too.
> 
> Don't bother arguing with me, you can take your argument up with experts on the topic that carried out the studies.
> 
> I just posted a link to yet another study supporting ivermectin use in COVID cases. You'd think this would be a big deal, after all the whole WORLD is fighting this pandemic, every tool in the tool box can help.


Yes but you don’t use a saw when you need a drill now do you?  It seems that some of the studies have been withdrawn citing ethics issues.









						Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns
					

The preprint endorsing ivermectin as a coronavirus therapy has been widely cited, but independent researchers find glaring discrepancies in the data




					www.theguardian.com
				












						Flawed ivermectin preprint highlights challenges of COVID drug studies
					

The study’s withdrawal from a preprint platform deals a blow to the anti-parasite drug’s chances as a COVID treatment, researchers say.




					www.nature.com
				












						Ivermectin (Still) Lacks Scientific Support as a COVID-19 Drug
					

A Cochrane review bolsters scientists' advice that ivermectin should not be used against the disease outside of clinical trials, while a study claiming to have found beneficial effects in patients was withdrawn following allegations of data manipulation.




					www.the-scientist.com
				




seems like the data supporting Invermectin was manipulated.


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> Yes but you don’t use a saw when you need a drill now do you?  It seems that some of the studies have been withdrawn citing ethics issues.


Exactly.  While Invermectin _might_ be useful in treating COVID, preventing serious illness and hospitalizations is far more important.

I'm An ICU Doctor And I Cannot Believe The Things Unvaccinated Patients Are Telling Me


----------



## Brad Sallows

*The data and the science is definitely not guiding the policy in Alberta*

Policy rarely has a single obvious solution irrespective of the wishes of those studying the science, who are only contributing one set of factors.  What that sentence reveals is that the person who uttered it assesses the weights of factors differently than the decision makers.  For all the talk about people staying in their lanes, no-one has told the science lane people to shut up about policy and just put their information into the estimate processes.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Yes but you don’t use a saw when you need a drill now do you? It seems that some of the studies have been withdrawn citing ethics issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns
> 
> 
> The preprint endorsing ivermectin as a coronavirus therapy has been widely cited, but independent researchers find glaring discrepancies in the data
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flawed ivermectin preprint highlights challenges of COVID drug studies
> 
> 
> The study’s withdrawal from a preprint platform deals a blow to the anti-parasite drug’s chances as a COVID treatment, researchers say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin (Still) Lacks Scientific Support as a COVID-19 Drug
> 
> 
> A Cochrane review bolsters scientists' advice that ivermectin should not be used against the disease outside of clinical trials, while a study claiming to have found beneficial effects in patients was withdrawn following allegations of data manipulation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.the-scientist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seems like the data supporting Invermectin was manipulated.



Those three articles all say the same thing, the Egyptian study was bad.  But they also go on to note: _"*However, even if the study is removed, the meta-analysis would still show that ivermectin causes a major reduction in deaths from COVID-19, he says*.".  _Confused yet? Are we ignoring this part?

What I find interesting is that doctors on the frontline dealing with COVID and who have had successes with certain therapeutics such as ivermectin are second guessed by the back benchers. Does that sort of Monday morning quarterbacking ring familiar? Translate this to NDHQs inflated bureaucracy and it's effects on the pointy end many of you complain about on this forum. 

Why, one might wonder, would some front line doctors turn to ivermectin? Because since 2012 it's shown efficacy in similar virus':

_From 2012 onwards, there have multiple reports of ivermectin’s antiviral activity towards RNA viruses [7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17], including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-1, influenza, flaviruses such as dengue virus (DENV) and Zika virus (ZIKV) and, most recently, SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19)_ (Ivermectin as Broad-Spectrum Host-Directed Antiviral)

Considering the four decades of safe use, and absence of long term side affects, for what possible reason would there be a widespread wholesale effort to shut down ivermectin's use in COVID cases during a world wide, society crushing, pandemic we have seen?

Thought experiment: what if, in early 2020, there existed an effective therapeutic that reduced death and serious illness in COVID19 infections? What would be different today?


----------



## Remius

Except one didn’t exist in 2020.  They had no idea how to treat the virus,  and it isn’t using a drug with too small a sample size or not studied enough,  I’m not sure why you don’t get that.  Right now the vaccines are winning.  Proven without a doubt.  

why hasn’t a single country or jurisdiction started using invermectin in a wide spread fashion?  Beyond the odd sample size?  

let me guess, big pharma, government conspiracies.  Enough already.  If it worked enough, plenty of countries would be all over this.  China and Russia would be stealing it.  

right now as everyone has mentioned, it should not be used outside of clinical studies.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Except one didn’t exist in 2020.  They had no idea how to treat the virus,  and it isn’t using a drug with too small a sample size or not studied enough,  I’m not sure why you don’t get that.


Except one did.

These guys developed treatment protocols as early as March 2020.  Here is their story and timeline:





						About The FLCCC - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Support Us   Our work would not be possible without you! Help us expand our reach and share life-saving research. Donate      Founded by a group of leading critical care specialists in March 2020, the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC) is dedicated to helping prevent and treat COVID.




					covid19criticalcare.com
				




Here is what the treatment protocol has evolved to:


			https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/FLCCC-Protocols-%E2%80%93-A-Guide-to-the-Management-of-COVID-19.pdf
		


Now I don't know about you, but I think this is the kind of exceptional initiative and leadership we should be looking for in times like this. 

As to your point that no country or jurisdiction has widespread use of IVM is simply not true and tells me you don't read a single thing linked or posted, and just post your uninformed opinion - which is fine but it's not much to stand on. One example showing it's use in several jurisdictions: Epidemiologic analyses on Ivermectin in COVID-19 | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance

And to your point about IVM shouldn't be used outside clinical studies, you know it's already an approved medicine with plenty of safety data - unlike the new mRNA vaccines... so that begs the question why it wasn't rolled out more widely in the Western world?

So back to the thought experiment: what if, in early 2020, there existed an effective therapeutic that reduced death and serious illness in COVID19 infections? What would be different today?


----------



## Remius

Again.  What do you not understand about not enough of a sample size or enough study?  

So for mild cases they used case studies with small samples. in Spain they used results from 24 people and Brazil it was 722. A few other places it was in between that.  In each case various things were being done with invermectin wand wasn’t consistant.

In serious cases, the sample sizes used in varying locations was 72 to 400 patients.  Note the one from Egypt was withdrawn because of data manipulation.

The rest are observational studies.  

So yeah, sample sizes too small.  And not enough conclusive evidence yet. 

The point is that the FLCCC that you seem to use as a source is an organisation run by 3 clinicians who are using substandard evidenciary standards.  Bad data interpretation.  

But more study is happening and being reviewed by western jurisdictions.  It isn’t being supressed.  It’s called following protocols.

your point about invermectin being safe unlike the “new” mRNA is ridiculous.   It’s not about if it’s safe or not, it’s if it’s effective or not.  

Vaccines are working despite what you think and has been proven.  

The scientific community is saying “hey great if invermectin works but get more info and data first using established protocols”  instead of the shoddy work done so far by a handful of people.  

So India has dropped invermectin. And most other “miracle dru









						Govt ditches most popular drugs in new treatment plan | Mumbai News - Times of India
					

The central health ministry has issued an evidence-based treatment plan for Covid-19 patients, junking many medicines that had during the course of th




					timesofindia.indiatimes.com
				












						A Secretive Body Is Making Questionable Covid Decisions in India - BNN Bloomberg
					

For a century, the Indian Council of Medical Research was a little known government body quietly studying illnesses in New Delhi. But during the pandemic, it’s taken on a role akin to Anthony Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the U.S. -- a powerful position that’s...




					www.bnnbloomberg.ca
				




And there is no evidence linking invermectin to drop in anything.









						Fact check: No link between India's falling COVID-19 cases and hydroxychloroquine
					

Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are not proven to effectively treat COVID-19.



					www.usatoday.com
				




Anyways, I hope more studies can prove it works and that it could be another treatment but it’s not looking that way.  But it is still being used by conspiracy types to push their agenda and anti vax sentiment.


----------



## Remius

Oh and to answer your question which I interpret to mean “what if we had started to use Invermectin in March of 2020, where would be?”

we would have given in to every citizen like India announced in late April.  And in June we would have ditched it like India did this month.  

we would have wasted 3 months of our time on bad data


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> why hasn’t a single country or jurisdiction started using invermectin in a wide spread fashion?  Beyond the odd sample size?



Big Pharama and government control on spending.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Big Pharama and government control on spending.


Well I was corrected on a government using it.  India.  But they stopped after only 3 months.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Big Pharama and government control on spending.


Um, I thought governments were spending like drunken sailors?  Control on spending?


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Well I was corrected on a government using it.  India.  But they stopped after only 3 months.


there is always Zimbabwe...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> Um, I thought governments were spending like drunken sailors?  Control on spending?


Control, brother!

Trudeau government won't say who got billions of dollars in aid
Liberals refuse to release COVID-19 spending information
Senior Liberal staffers discussed withholding details about COVID-19 response: Internal emails
Trudeau's COVID-19 spending was tilted to high-earning Canadians
Liberals end debate over budget bill, warning pandemic programs will expir

Ottawa has spent $240B fighting COVID-19 in just 8 months. A CBC investigation follows the money


> And while the federal government has readily disclosed its overall numbers and spending envelopes,* few details are being provided about who has received the payments and in what amounts* — information that is vital if taxpayers are to know how their money is being spent.
> 
> "There's no reason why we shouldn't see that level of transparency," said Kevin Page, Canada's former parliamentary budget officer. "We should know more about where that money is going."




TLDR: Liberals spent billions of dollars with very little accountability. Control.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Control, brother!
> 
> Trudeau government won't say who got billions of dollars in aid
> Liberals refuse to release COVID-19 spending information
> Senior Liberal staffers discussed withholding details about COVID-19 response: Internal emails
> Trudeau's COVID-19 spending was tilted to high-earning Canadians
> Liberals end debate over budget bill, warning pandemic programs will expir
> 
> Ottawa has spent $240B fighting COVID-19 in just 8 months. A CBC investigation follows the money
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR: Liberals spent billions of dollars with very little accountability. Control.


Cool. Now do the other 194 countries on the planet.


----------



## Quirky

PMedMoe said:


> Got a link for the science backing the proposed policy changes?
> 
> 'Throwing caution to the wind': Experts react to Alberta’s changing quarantine policy
> 
> Ryan Imgrund, a COVID-19 biostatistician from Sudbury, Ont., working with public health units in the province, told CTV News that Alberta is an outlier when it comes to policy responding to the pandemic and reproductive values.
> 
> “*The data and the science is definitely not guiding the policy in Alberta*,” he said. “As far as I know right now, Alberta is the only place in the world that will be allowing COVID positive people to not have to self-isolate,” he added.
> 
> “The only place in the world. We are talking Florida, the United Kingdom; all those places, they not only require someone that is COVID positive to self-isolate, but they also require those that are close contacts to also isolate as well.”


It’s obvious you don’t like Albertas policies because of reasons. There are people, like you, who are unhappy that provinces like Alberta are taking such a bold step that needs to happen. Dr. Hinshaw is more than qualified to lead Alberta and make these decisions. 

These “experts” are the same ones who always predict idiotic doomsday scenarios that never materialize. “100k dead in Canada predicted if xxxxx precautions aren’t taken now!” Remember all those hundreds of thousands dead? Right…

Its amazing how people freak the hell out over anything Covid. They completely ignore every other preventable death in the country like it doesn’t matter. Good on Alberta for taking these necessary steps and ignoring the peanut gallery.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Control, brother!
> 
> Trudeau government won't say who got billions of dollars in aid
> Liberals refuse to release COVID-19 spending information
> Senior Liberal staffers discussed withholding details about COVID-19 response: Internal emails
> Trudeau's COVID-19 spending was tilted to high-earning Canadians
> Liberals end debate over budget bill, warning pandemic programs will expir
> 
> Ottawa has spent $240B fighting COVID-19 in just 8 months. A CBC investigation follows the money
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR: Liberals spent billions of dollars with very little accountability. Control.


Sort of my point. Spending control is a lame excuse to use when asking the question about invermectin.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> It’s obvious you don’t like Albertas policies because of reasons. There are people, like you, who are unhappy that provinces like Alberta are taking such a bold step that needs to happen. Dr. Hinshaw is more than qualified to lead Alberta and make these decisions.
> 
> These “experts” are the same ones who always predict idiotic doomsday scenarios that never materialize. “100k dead in Canada predicted if xxxxx precautions aren’t taken now!” Remember all those hundreds of thousands dead? Right…
> 
> Its amazing how people freak the hell out over anything Covid. They completely ignore every other preventable death in the country like it doesn’t matter. Good on Alberta for taking these necessary steps and ignoring the peanut gallery.


Probably prevented a lot of deaths because people listened to the experts.  Remember, the modelling is based on not doing anything.  

Alberta can do what it wants.   The weak people who couldn’t tough it out wearing a little mask or have some irrational fear of medicine I’m sure are pleased enough now so hopefully we’ll stop hearing about the complaining about that.   If Alberta thinks it’s safe enough to go full retard who am I to dispute.  I don’t really know their numbers enough to say one way or another.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> Probably prevented a lot of deaths because people listened to the experts.  Remember, the modelling is based on not doing anything.
> 
> Alberta can do what it wants.   The weak people who couldn’t tough it out wearing a little mask or have some irrational fear of medicine I’m sure are pleased enough now so hopefully we’ll stop hearing about the complaining about that.   If Alberta thinks it’s safe enough to go full retard who am I to dispute.  I don’t really know their numbers enough to say one way or another.



I'm at Calgary airport right now. Most peolpe are wearing masks, as were many people in the stores downtown, but south of here in Alberta is pretty much a 'mask freedom' zone from what I could see. 

That changes when you cross the border into the Kootenays, of course.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Cool. Now do the other 194 countries on the planet.


But what about Harper indeed.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Again.  What do you not understand about not enough of a sample size or enough study?
> 
> So for mild cases they used case studies with small samples. in Spain they used results from 24 people and Brazil it was 722. A few other places it was in between that.  In each case various things were being done with invermectin wand wasn’t consistant.
> 
> In serious cases, the sample sizes used in varying locations was 72 to 400 patients.  Note the one from Egypt was withdrawn because of data manipulation.
> 
> The rest are observational studies.
> 
> So yeah, sample sizes too small.  And not enough conclusive evidence yet.
> 
> The point is that the FLCCC that you seem to use as a source is an organisation run by 3 clinicians who are using substandard evidenciary standards.  Bad data interpretation.
> 
> But more study is happening and being reviewed by western jurisdictions.  It isn’t being supressed.  It’s called following protocols.
> 
> your point about invermectin being safe unlike the “new” mRNA is ridiculous.   It’s not about if it’s safe or not, it’s if it’s effective or not.
> 
> Vaccines are working despite what you think and has been proven.
> 
> The scientific community is saying “hey great if invermectin works but get more info and data first using established protocols”  instead of the shoddy work done so far by a handful of people.
> 
> So India has dropped invermectin. And most other “miracle dru
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Govt ditches most popular drugs in new treatment plan | Mumbai News - Times of India
> 
> 
> The central health ministry has issued an evidence-based treatment plan for Covid-19 patients, junking many medicines that had during the course of th
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timesofindia.indiatimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Secretive Body Is Making Questionable Covid Decisions in India - BNN Bloomberg
> 
> 
> For a century, the Indian Council of Medical Research was a little known government body quietly studying illnesses in New Delhi. But during the pandemic, it’s taken on a role akin to Anthony Fauci’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in the U.S. -- a powerful position that’s...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bnnbloomberg.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no evidence linking invermectin to drop in anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: No link between India's falling COVID-19 cases and hydroxychloroquine
> 
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are not proven to effectively treat COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> www.usatoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, I hope more studies can prove it works and that it could be another treatment but it’s not looking that way.  But it is still being used by conspiracy types to push their agenda and anti vax sentiment.


None of those news articles counters the medical publications I’ve linked for you. In fact those news articles only make a couple of passing non committal remarks about IVM.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> But what about Harper indeed.


A majority of countries on the planet are spending like drunken sailors and the reason that they are not investing in ivermectin is because the Trudeau Liberals are trying to control everything.

I apologize for not being able to connect the dots. How does Trudeau and this nations finances keep other nations from adopting ivermectin?


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> None of those news articles counters the medical publications I’ve linked for you. In fact those news articles only make a couple of passing non committal remarks about IVM.


Lets see how...Zimbabwe... does with ivermectin before we pass judgement on it. Even India ditched it, which kind of proves our point. Nobody, asides from Zimbabwe, is using it.


----------



## MilEME09

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm at Calgary airport right now. Most peolpe are wearing masks, as were many people in the stores downtown, but south of here in Alberta is pretty much a 'mask freedom' zone from what I could see.
> 
> That changes when you cross the border into the Kootenays, of course.


Agreed, I travel a lot for work, and as soon as you leave calgary, it's mask free unless some company wants staff to wear them


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> I apologize for not being able to connect the dots. How does Trudeau and this nations finances keep other nations from adopting ivermectin?


You have to _"do your own research"_ as they say


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> You have to _"do your own research"_ as they say


Or you're full of BS as others say.



			The Burden of Proof
		




> The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition.  Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.


 argumentum ad ignorantium







						Argumentum ad Ignorantiam
					

The argument from ignorance is characterized and shown to be sometimes            persuasive but normally fallacious.



					philosophy.lander.edu
				






> *Argumentum ad Ignorantiam*: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true. This error in reasoning is often expressed with influential rhetoric.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Or you're full of BS as others say.


100%.

Was just reminiscing if you repeat something, if you say it louder, if that's your talking point, people will totally believe it.

But that do your own research is conspiricy-nut gold.


----------



## Remius

Meanwhile in Arkansas,









						Arkansas governor says he regrets law banning mask mandates
					

Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinson said he regretted signing a law banning local mask mandates as COVID-19 cases continue to rise in his state.




					ca.news.yahoo.com
				




The Governor seems to now regret banning mask mandates.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> 100%.
> 
> Was just reminiscing if you repeat something, if you say it louder, if that's your talking point, people will totally believe it.
> 
> But that do your own research is conspiricy-nut gold.


Its not conspiracy, its just asinine. 

You make the claim that the LPC is the reason what governments everywhere, despite spending like sailors, are not adopting ivermectin as a covid cure. I ask for clarification to understand what you are trying to say, and you tell me to do my own research. 

Where do I even start? How do I connect those dots, the dots you put out there? You do the research, back up your claim, present it to us and then we can go over whether or not it makes sense, thats how these things usually work.


----------



## suffolkowner

Altair said:


> Lets see how...Zimbabwe... does with ivermectin before we pass judgement on it. Even India ditched it, which kind of proves our point. Nobody, asides from Zimbabwe, is using it.


Ivermectin is already widely used in sub-Saharan Africa so that should help. Dosing with the horse, sheep, or cattle medications should be easy as they usually come with handy weight gradations although I think I'll stick with the pour on although maybe an apple flavoured horse application needs to be looked at more carefully


----------



## Altair

suffolkowner said:


> Ivermectin is already widely used in sub-Saharan Africa so that should help. Dosing with the horse, sheep, or cattle medications should be easy as they usually come with handy weight gradations although I think I'll stick with the pour on although maybe an apple flavoured horse application needs to be looked at more carefully


Does it come in any other flavours?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Where do I even start?


Okay fine. Pick a country, any country other than Canada.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Okay fine. Pick a country, any country other than Canada.


I'm still not doing your research.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> I'm still not doing your research.



Ya ya, it's fine. You pick the country, I'll do some research.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Ya ya, it's fine. You pick the country, I'll do some research.


I threw a dart at a map, got italy.


----------



## PMedMoe

Quirky said:


> It’s obvious you don’t like Albertas policies because of reasons. There are people, like you, who are unhappy that provinces like Alberta are taking such a bold step that needs to happen.


I'm glad you think you know me so well.  I don't give two shits about what Alberta is doing. 

I asked you for a link for the science backing the proposed policy changes.


----------



## Mick

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm at Calgary airport right now. Most peolpe are wearing masks, as were many people in the stores downtown, but south of here in Alberta is pretty much a 'mask freedom' zone from what I could see.
> 
> That changes when you cross the border into the Kootenays, of course.


Federal regulations still require travellers to wear masks at airports, so no surprise there.  

I live in Edmonton, and have not had to wear a mask other than for work (also federally mandated), since July 1st.

My experience has been that most people are opting not to wear masks while visiting restaurants, grocery shopping etc.  I'd estimate about 15% of folks are still choosing to wear a mask, which is fine.

Alberta's Chief Medical Officer of Heath, Dr Hinshaw, has explained the recently-announced further-relaxing of COVID measures:

"As vaccine coverage has changed the nature of the province-wide risk of COVID-19, it is time, in my opinion, to shift from province-wide extraordinary measures to more targeted and local measures."

"This allows us to start looking at other issues while still continuing COVID-19 protective measures in areas of high risk, and responding to local outbreaks where the health system is under threat."

Also from the article (link below):

In Wednesday's op-ed, Hinshaw called testing "every person with a runny nose or sore throat" an extraordinary measure that is especially unsustainable during the fall, and isolation mandates necessary before vaccines but unjustifiable after.









						COVID-19 'not the only wicked problem we are facing': Hinshaw in new op-ed
					

After days of unrelenting criticism of Alberta's plan to change its pandemic response, the province's top doctor is again attempting to assure Albertans it's time to rely on the protection of vaccines and live with COVID-19.




					edmonton.ctvnews.ca
				




I suppose time will tell, but so far there has been a moderate increase in cases, but hospitalizations remain relatively low.  Perhaps this is due to the increasing vaccination numbers of eligible Albertans (76 % first shot, 66 % second shot).


----------



## QV

I suspect Dr. Hinshaw has considered these outcomes reported by Stats Can over the last year.

For a soft sell








						Overdoses, alcohol-related deaths increased in Canadians under 65 during pandemic: StatCan
					

Overdose deaths and alcohol-related fatalities increased among Canadians under 65 during the COVID-19 pandemic due to lockdowns and extended isolation, according to new data from Statistics Canada.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				



_StatCan found there were 5,535 more deaths than expected in those younger than 65 from the end of March 2020 to the beginning of April 2021.
Over the same period, the agency says 1,380 COVID-19 deaths were attributed to the same age group, suggesting that the excess mortality is "in large part related" to unintentional side-effects of the pandemic, such as substance abuse... "While we sometimes observe excess mortality that is consistent with the number of deaths attributed to COVID-19, data reveal that indirect consequences of the pandemic are also having a significant impact on the number of excess deaths in Canada, particularly among younger Canadians," StatCan said in the report._

And for a more aggressive spin of the same data:








						Lockdowns killed more Canadians under 65 than COVID-19: Statscan
					

The consequences of government-enforced lockdowns killed more Canadians under the age of 65 than the COVID-19 virus itself, according to a report by Statistics Canada.




					tnc.news
				



_The consequences of government-enforced lockdowns killed more Canadians under the age of 65 than the COVID-19 virus itself, according to a report by Statistics Canada...Statistics Canada acknowledged lockdowns had a significant impact on the number of deaths in Canada, particularly among younger people... Earlier this month, Statistics Canada also reported that most of the people who died from COVID-19 in Canada were over the age of 85 and had dementia, Alzheimer’s, chronic heart disease or other pre-existing “cardiovascular and respiratory conditions.” Nine in 10 deaths had a secondary cause listed on the death certificate.  Canadians have been victims of some of the strictest public health orders in the world, rivalling communist countries like China and Cuba._

However you take it, the bottom line is the second and third order effects of lockdowns caused more harm to those under 65 (and probably society as a whole) than COVID-19. The opposing argument will be: "but if we did nothing than way more would die".  But facts don't support that; COVID was highly transmissible, there were loads of asymptomatic spreaders, and infections increased while in lockdowns around the world. So lockdowns had a negligible effect on the spread but significant detrimental effects to society in general. Hinshaw has made the right decision.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Lets see how...Zimbabwe... does with ivermectin before we pass judgement on it. Even India ditched it, which kind of proves our point. Nobody, asides from Zimbabwe, is using it.


_Sigh..._

India, Zimbabwe, Peru, Argentina, Mexico  Epidemiologic analyses on Ivermectin in COVID-19 | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance

And isolated use in a number of countries including the US: Ivermectin in COVID-19 | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> I suspect Dr. Hinshaw has considered these outcomes reported by Stats Can over the last year.
> 
> For a soft sell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overdoses, alcohol-related deaths increased in Canadians under 65 during pandemic: StatCan
> 
> 
> Overdose deaths and alcohol-related fatalities increased among Canadians under 65 during the COVID-19 pandemic due to lockdowns and extended isolation, according to new data from Statistics Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _StatCan found there were 5,535 more deaths than expected in those younger than 65 from the end of March 2020 to the beginning of April 2021.
> Over the same period, the agency says 1,380 COVID-19 deaths were attributed to the same age group, suggesting that the excess mortality is "in large part related" to unintentional side-effects of the pandemic, such as substance abuse... "While we sometimes observe excess mortality that is consistent with the number of deaths attributed to COVID-19, data reveal that indirect consequences of the pandemic are also having a significant impact on the number of excess deaths in Canada, particularly among younger Canadians," StatCan said in the report._
> 
> And for a more aggressive spin of the same data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockdowns killed more Canadians under 65 than COVID-19: Statscan
> 
> 
> The consequences of government-enforced lockdowns killed more Canadians under the age of 65 than the COVID-19 virus itself, according to a report by Statistics Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tnc.news
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The consequences of government-enforced lockdowns killed more Canadians under the age of 65 than the COVID-19 virus itself, according to a report by Statistics Canada...Statistics Canada acknowledged lockdowns had a significant impact on the number of deaths in Canada, particularly among younger people... Earlier this month, Statistics Canada also reported that most of the people who died from COVID-19 in Canada were over the age of 85 and had dementia, Alzheimer’s, chronic heart disease or other pre-existing “cardiovascular and respiratory conditions.” Nine in 10 deaths had a secondary cause listed on the death certificate.  Canadians have been victims of some of the strictest public health orders in the world, rivalling communist countries like China and Cuba._
> 
> However you take it, the bottom line is the second and third order effects of lockdowns caused more harm to those under 65 (and probably society as a whole) than COVID-19. The opposing argument will be: "but if we did nothing than way more would die".  But facts don't support that; COVID was highly transmissible, there were loads of asymptomatic spreaders, and infections increased while in lockdowns around the world. So lockdowns had a negligible effect on the spread but significant detrimental effects to society in general. Hinshaw has made the right decision.


Yes, I am hopeful that Dr Hinshaw has made the right decision; I remain cautiously optimistic.  It is also encouraging to see that _temporary_ measures are indeed temporary.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is denying the fact that various public health measures have had negative effects - the numbers cited by StatCan prove this.

I do wonder what the second and third order effects of _not_ imposing social gathering restrictions would have been, if healthcare systems had subsequently been overwhelmed.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> _Sigh..._
> 
> India, Zimbabwe, Peru, Argentina, Mexico  Epidemiologic analyses on Ivermectin in COVID-19 | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
> 
> And isolated use in a number of countries including the US: Ivermectin in COVID-19 | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


Yes, it was so successful in India that they decided to....stop using it.









						Govt ditches most popular drugs in new treatment plan | Mumbai News - Times of India
					

The central health ministry has issued an evidence-based treatment plan for Covid-19 patients, junking many medicines that had during the course of th




					m.timesofindia.com
				






> In Mumbai, pulmonologist Dr Lancelot Pinto said he could stop being “apologetic’’ to his Covid-19 patients. “I have never prescribed ivermectin, doxycycline or favipiravir to my Covid patients, but I have had to explain to many of them why I wasn’t prescribing these drugs. Some would be jittery about it, but now I can show them these guidelines,” he said.



Big success!


So I guess we shall see how Zimbabwe Peru,Argentina and Mexico do with it.


----------



## Quirky

Mick said:


> I do wonder what the second and third order effects of _not_ imposing social gathering restrictions would have been, if healthcare systems had subsequently been overwhelmed.



Likely nothing would have happened, all the modelling was the worst case scenario and multiplied x100 to scare the public and boost TV ratings. The predictions were pure nonsense. After August 16th nothing will happen in Alberta either, there are enough vaccinated where the healthcare system, as crappy as it is in Canada, can handle the sick. There is nothing actually scary about people not wanting the vaccine - unless you work in media or medical field.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:


> Likely nothing would have happened, all the modelling was the worst case scenario and multiplied x100 to scare the public and boost TV ratings. The predictions were pure nonsense. After August 16th nothing will happen in Alberta either, there are enough vaccinated where the healthcare system, as crappy as it is in Canada, can handle the sick. There is nothing actually scary about people not wanting the vaccine - unless you work in media or medical field.


I agree - reasonable to assume nothing major will develope in AB, mainly because of increasing vaccination numbers.


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-vaccine-passport-1.6130699
		


Vaccine passports in QC coming.


----------



## QV

Quirky said:


> Likely nothing would have happened, all the modelling was the worst case scenario and multiplied x100 to scare the public and boost TV ratings. The predictions were pure nonsense. After August 16th nothing will happen in Alberta either, there are enough vaccinated where the healthcare system, as crappy as it is in Canada, can handle the sick. There is nothing actually scary about people not wanting the vaccine - unless you work in media or medical field.


Agree. You can't ignore the data from other places such as Sweden regarding their approach from the start, or conversely Gibraltar for their high vaccination status and cases on the rise.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Yes, it was so successful in India that they decided to....stop using it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Govt ditches most popular drugs in new treatment plan | Mumbai News - Times of India
> 
> 
> The central health ministry has issued an evidence-based treatment plan for Covid-19 patients, junking many medicines that had during the course of th
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.timesofindia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big success!
> 
> 
> So I guess we shall see how Zimbabwe Peru,Argentina and Mexico do with it.


_Sigh_...

The links show how they are doing with it... you don't have to wait.

In your article IVM is mentioned twice; once stating IVM isn't on a list for severe treatment, and second by a doctor who said he's personally never prescribed it. This is hardly a sweeping declaration "India decided to stop using it".


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> _Sigh_...
> 
> The links show how they are doing with it... you don't have to wait.
> 
> In your article IVM is mentioned twice; once stating IVM isn't on a list for severe treatment, and second by a doctor who said he's personally never prescribed it. This is hardly a sweeping declaration "India decided to stop using it".











						Drugs including ivermectin removed from approved covid treatment list
					

The Centre has also advised physicians to exercise extreme caution with EUA drug Remdesivir and off-label drug Tocilizumab




					www.google.com
				






> In a sweeping shift in the treatment of covid-19 patients, the Union health ministry has removed usage of popular drugs such as Ivermectin, Azithromycin, Doxycycline, Zinc, Favipiravir and plasma therapy.
> 
> The Government on Monday also advised physicians to exercise extreme caution with Emergency Use Authorisation (EUA) drug Remdesivir and Off-label drug Tocilizumab, the Directorate General of Health Services (DGHS) under the union health ministry recently issued “evidence-based" --comprehensive guidelines for the management of covid-19 patients.



Of course.


> While WHO has been warning against used of ivermectin, Indian scientists have also come in favour of the removal of the drugs. “I hope this will put an end to irrational overtreatment, and focus on what we know helps--ventilation, supportive therapy, steroids, tocilizumab etc at the right time in the right patients. All other drugs should be used only in the context of a clinical trial, if there is potential utility," said Dr Gagandeep Kang, the vice chair, Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI), a global non-profit aiding vaccine development platform for the covid-19 pandemic, and professor at the Christian Medical College (CMC), Vellore, Tamil Nadu.


Of course.


----------



## QV

That's nice. So they used it and had successes, then stopped using it. 

Also from the same article:

_In a stark contrast of the voices against Ivermectin, *a latest peer-reviewed research published recently had said that immediate global ivermectin use will end the covid-19 pandemic*. Peer reviewed by medical experts that *included three U.S. government senior scientists *and published in the American Journal of Therapeutics, the research is a comprehensive review of the available data taken from clinical, in vitro, animal, and real-world studies. *Consistent with numerous meta-analyses of ivermectin RCT's since published by expert panels from the UK, Italy, Spain, and Japan,* *they found large, statistically significant reduction in mortality, time to recovery and viral clearance in covid-19 patients treated with ivermectin*._


It's like you are totally against exploring and using anything other than these fast tracked vaccines. Your blind trust in career politicians to do the right thing is naïve.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> That's nice. So they used it and had successes, then stopped using it.
> 
> Also from the same article:
> 
> _In a stark contrast of the voices against Ivermectin, *a latest peer-reviewed research published recently had said that immediate global ivermectin use will end the covid-19 pandemic*. Peer reviewed by medical experts that *included three U.S. government senior scientists *and published in the American Journal of Therapeutics, the research is a comprehensive review of the available data taken from clinical, in vitro, animal, and real-world studies. *Consistent with numerous meta-analyses of ivermectin RCT's since published by expert panels from the UK, Italy, Spain, and Japan,* *they found large, statistically significant reduction in mortality, time to recovery and viral clearance in covid-19 patients treated with ivermectin*._
> 
> 
> It's like you are totally against exploring and using anything other than these fast tracked vaccines. Your blind trust in career politicians to do the right thing is naïve.


Right...the used it, saw success and stopped? Now you are making things up.

Wait what?  You are advocating fast tracked drugs over fast tracked vaccines? Lol.  

Look, I don't think you give a rats ass about Invermectin.  I think it supports your narrative about big pharma and government and media conspiracies.  If big pharma was pushing Invermectin you'd likely find something else to cling to. 

I personally don't mind exploring anything else.  But it needs to be done the right way.  And right now, Invermectin is going through the proper review process.  But some people, like you, want to lower those standards but lament the fast track (By Trump btw) in the bureaucratic process (not actually the control group or study part btw again)

We get it.  You don't like vaccines even if they are actually working.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Look, I don't think you give a rats ass about Invermectin.


He was all in on hydroxychloroquine last year, invermectin this year, and whatever will be the drug de jour next year.

Just not vaccines which are proving to reduce death by over 95 percent.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> That's nice. So they used it and had successes, then stopped using it.


Strike india from your list of places where the drug is being used.

Focus on Zimbabwe, Peru,Argentina and Mexico. 4 countries down, 191 to go.


QV said:


> It's like you are totally against exploring and using anything other than these fast tracked vaccines. Your blind trust in career politicians to do the right thing is naïve.


I trust science. I trust scientists. I trust when scientists, experts in their field, spending a lifetime understanding things that try to kill us, say that vaccines work, that they know what the hell they are talking about.

When 1000 scientists all say , hey do this, I trust them over the 10 that day, hey, do this instead.

I especially trust them over people on the goddamn internet who say that mRNA vaccines are gene manipulation or are injecting microchips,  or will cause a mass die off of humanity within (insert shifting goal lines here).

If the politicians are listening to the scientists, then that's good enough for me. If the large majority of scientists say that ivermectin has some sort of use, I'll trust it then. But with scientists saying that it needs further studies at best, and is not all that useful at worse, I don't see how it adds to the conversation when we have vaccines that are doing a fantastic job versus covid.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Right...the used it, saw success and stopped? Now you are making things up.
> 
> Wait what?  You are advocating fast tracked drugs over fast tracked vaccines? Lol.
> 
> Look, I don't think you give a rats ass about Invermectin.  I think it supports your narrative about big pharma and government and media conspiracies.  If big pharma was pushing Invermectin you'd likely find something else to cling to.
> 
> I personally don't mind exploring anything else.  But it needs to be done the right way.  And right now, Invermectin is going through the proper review process.  But some people, like you, want to lower those standards but lament the fast track (By Trump btw) in the bureaucratic process (not actually the control group or study part btw again)
> 
> We get it.  You don't like vaccines even if they are actually working.


I see you are still having trouble making the distinction between a Nobel Prize winning medicine already widely used around the world but used off label, and a new never-before-used in humans vaccine technology rushed into emergency use. To assist you; one has decades of safety data while the other not even one year.

I'm fairly certain my rather extensive vaccination records are good evidence you're quite wrong about how I feel about vaccines in general.

I'd like to continue to discuss but if you can't keep your emotions and weak shots out of it, there is no point.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> It's like you are totally against exploring and using anything other than these *fast tracked* vaccines.


Pretty sure we've refuted that point before, but just to refresh your memory:

How Were The COVID-19 Vaccines Made So Quickly?

How COVID-19 vaccines were made so quickly without cutting corners

Q&A: How do you fast-track a vaccine? UCL scientists weigh in


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> I see you are still having trouble making the distinction between a Nobel Prize winning medicine already widely used around the world but used off label, and a new never-before-used in humans vaccine technology rushed into emergency use. To assist you; one has decades of safety data while the other not even one year.
> 
> I'm fairly certain my rather extensive vaccination records are good evidence you're quite wrong about how I feel about vaccines in general.
> 
> I'd like to continue to discuss but if you can't keep your emotions and weak shots out of it, there is no point.


You keep bringing those things up though.  Media, pharma etc. And using the myth that these vaccines “fast tracked” with corners being cut.

Once again, your metric for invermectin is that it won a Nobel prize.  That means sweet eff all in how it interacts with Covid.  Why?  BECAUSE IT DIDN’T WIN THE PRIZE FOR TREATING COVID.   The issue with it is that there isn’t enough data to support its widespread use because they don’t have enough EVIDENCE to know how it reacts to the virus, various treatments etc etc.

lots of things have won the Nobel prize, that doesn’t mean any of them are effective against COVID.  Because it has decades of safe use for treating one thing doesn’t mean it is safe and effective for treating another.


----------



## OldSolduer

In Manitoba on Saturday we are going maskless indoors - if the various businesses don`t have their own standard. I`m welcoming it but will mask up if asked to.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Pretty sure we've refuted that point before, but just to refresh your memory:
> 
> How Were The COVID-19 Vaccines Made So Quickly?
> 
> How COVID-19 vaccines were made so quickly without cutting corners
> 
> Q&A: How do you fast-track a vaccine? UCL scientists weigh in


 Ack all of that... except you can't fast track long term safety data without the actual _long term_.


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> Ack all of that... except you can't fast track long term safety data without the actual _long term_.


How long is "long term"?


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> How long is "long term"?


I don't know.  Several years?


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-mandatory-vaccines-federal-workers-regulated-industries-1.6130766
		


This will be interesting to see.


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> I don't know.  Several years?


Seems reasonable.  But if mRNA vaccine research began well prior to 2019, is it fair to assume that some long tesafety data has been gleaned already?

Would it not be preferable to have a similar period of time to evaluate the effects of any repurposed drug to determine its safety and efficacy treating COVID 19?

I think I've made my position clear re vaccines.  Just trying to understand the logic here.

edited for clarity


----------



## Mick

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-mandatory-vaccines-federal-workers-regulated-industries-1.6130766
> 
> 
> 
> This will be interesting to see.


Pre-election posturing?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> I threw a dart at a map, got italy.


Thanks, stand by.



Altair said:


> When 1000 scientists all say , hey do this, I trust them over the 10 that day, hey, do this instead.


I'll see your argumentum ad ignorantium  and raise you an Argumentum ad Populum





> One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that *to defeat relativity one did not need the word of* 100 scientists, just one fact.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Fast-track" is vague, but there's no denying a lot of money and effort was pushed at the problem to ensure everyone wasn't relying on whatever pace the companies set for themselves in accordance with whatever financial risk they assessed, and that "emergency" authorization was invoked.


----------



## Remius

Mick said:


> Pre-election posturing?


Possibly.  But here is the catch as far as the election goes…how risky would it be given we might have a 4th wave in the fall given the delta variant?


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> Seems reasonable.  But if mRNA vaccine research began well prior to 2019, is it fair to assume that some long tesafety data has been gleaned already?
> 
> Would it not be preferable to have a similar period of time to evaluate the effects of any repurposed drug to determine its safety and efficacy treating COVID 19?
> 
> I think I've made my position clear re vaccines.  Just trying to understand the logic here.
> 
> edited for clarity


I don't think so.  The only thing to determine with a re-purposed but widely used medicine is if it works or not for that application, which can be determined quickly (days). The safety data already exists extensively so the risk is very low. Given ivm is considered very safe, and earlier use had shown promise in similar virus', it makes absolute sense to employ it widely in a pandemic setting. If it didn't work, no extra harm would come. If it did work, well...  With respect to mRNA, as I understand it was first used in people in mid 2020, therefore the missing link is the long term safety data. So the vaccines work, but at what cost?


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> I don't think so.  The only thing to determine with a re-purposed but widely used medicine is if it works or not for that application, which can be determined quickly (days). The safety data already exists extensively so the risk is very low. Given ivm is considered very safe, and earlier use had shown promise in similar virus', it makes absolute sense to employ it widely in a pandemic setting. If it didn't work, no extra harm would come. If it did work, well...  With respect to mRNA, as I understand it was first used in people in mid 2020, therefore the missing link is the long term safety data.


Unless other effective treatments are delayed or deferred as a result.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Possibly.  But here is the catch as far as the election goes…how risky would it be given we might have a 4th wave in the fall given the delta variant?


We have a covid politics thread.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Thanks, stand by.


I'll wait. Take as long as you need.


Jarnhamar said:


> I'll see your argumentum ad ignorantium  and raise you an Argumentum ad Populum


He said that I trusted politicians, I said that I didn't trust politicians,  I trust scientists. Seeing as I was not telling him what to do, simply what I do, does this not absolve me from arguments ad populum?


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> Unless other effective treatments are delayed or deferred as a result.


Right, but an ivm cycle wouldn't be used in isolation anyway. If you have a look at the protocols on the FLCCC links upthread ivm is used in conjunction with a lot of other therapeutics and procedures, depending on whether it's a prevention, home treatment or hospitalization. They've found significant success with the protocols they've developed.


----------



## QV

Mick said:


> Unless other effective treatments are delayed or deferred as a result.


And I should add, if other effective treatments existed this would all be moot including vaccines. Recall, there was no known way to effectively treat this in the beginning.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Good interview by Steve Murphy of ATV News.  








						Why did N.B. reopen before hitting target?
					

Anchor Steve Murphy speaks with New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca


----------



## PMedMoe

Here's a good visual.


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Here's a good visual.


This is great news.  So considering the majority of people including those in the "at risk" groups (elderly, multiple co-morbidities) are vaccinated, and this chart is showing anywhere from 8 to 25 fold reduction in bad outcomes for vaccinated people, this pandemic should pretty much be over then hey? Not to mention those who recovered and have natural antibodies, and those in the statistically zero risk category.

Likely still be a ton of "cases" but they would be quite mild and hospitalizations or deaths should be very rare. 

Do I understand that correctly?


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> This is great news.  So considering the majority of people including those in the "at risk" groups (elderly, multiple co-morbidities) are vaccinated, and this chart is showing anywhere from 8 to 25 fold reduction in bad outcomes for vaccinated people, this pandemic should pretty much be over then hey? Not to mention those who recovered and have natural antibodies, and those in the statistically zero risk category.
> 
> Likely still be a ton of "cases" but they would be quite mild and hospitalizations or deaths should be very rare.
> 
> Do I understand that correctly?


That's the way I see it, but let's see what happens with the Delta variant.


----------



## Remius

Same.  Looks promising.


----------



## QV

About the Delta variant... how could we defeat that?  Here’s how, another paper on ivm:









						Ivermectin: a multifaceted drug of Nobel prize-honoured distinction with indicated efficacy against a new global scourge, COVID-19
					

In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honoured the…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> About the Delta variant... how could we defeat that?  Here’s how, another paper on ivm:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin: a multifaceted drug of Nobel prize-honoured distinction with indicated efficacy against a new global scourge, COVID-19
> 
> 
> In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honoured the…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedirect.com


Okay, we get it, you're on board with IVM.  Now I just think you're trolling.


----------



## Remius

Just saw a news banner.  Looks like China will be taking COVID precautions to the next level for the winter games.  They may force anyone coming to take the Sino Vaccine.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Just saw a news banner.  Looks like China will be taking COVID precautions to the next level for the winter games.  They may force anyone coming to take the Sino Vaccine.


Boycott please.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PMedMoe said:


> Okay, we get it, you're on board with IVM.  Now I just think you're trolling.


Until it's approved and then it's a conspiracy drug....


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until it's approved and then it's a conspiracy drug....


Since you think you're able to speak for me, maybe I don't need to post here anymore.   

I have _never_ said IVM was a conspiracy. I said there's not enough studies to prove it does what QV seems to think it does.

It could very well be useful in treatment of COVID.

Others seem to think there's some kind of conspiracy to supress studies, but I haven't seen proof of that at all.  Google invermectin, you get loads of results; studies, articles, etc.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PMedMoe said:


> Since you think you're able to speak for me, maybe I don't need to post here anymore.
> 
> I have _never_ said IVM was a conspiracy. I said there's not enough studies to prove it does what QV seems to think it does.
> 
> It could very well be useful in treatment of COVID.
> 
> Others seem to think there's some kind of conspiracy to supress studies, but I haven't seen proof of that at all.  Google invermectin, you get loads of results; studies, articles, etc.


Umm, that wasn't meant for you at all.....think this through, whom do you think I'd be referring too?


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:


> Since you think you're able to speak for me, maybe I don't need to post here anymore.
> 
> I have _never_ said IVM was a conspiracy. I said there's not enough studies to prove it does what QV seems to think it does.
> 
> It could very well be useful in treatment of COVID.
> 
> Others seem to think there's some kind of conspiracy to supress studies, but I haven't seen proof of that at all.  Google invermectin, you get loads of results; studies, articles, etc.


Yeah, he wasn’t talking about you lol.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Boycott please.


I can see that happening.


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Umm, that wasn't meant for you at all.....think this through, whom do you think I'd be referring too?


My bad. Should have quoted him for context.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Florida vs. Texas in the 'Dummy Off':



Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules​While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.


Earlier this week, President *Joe Biden* called on elected officials to help defeat the COVID-19 pandemic or “get out of the way.” Rather than heed his advice, the nation’s most irresponsible leaders have continued to do their thing, with states like Texas and Florida—which account for about a third of infections in the United States—seemingly competing to see who can come up with the most deranged approaches to the deadly virus.

Thanks to *Ron DeSantis*, the profoundly cynical and incorrigibly smug Florida governor, the Sunshine State had lead by a nose in this race to the bottom. DeSantis has mocked public health officials as caseloads skyrocketed, pursued an idiotic offensive against Biden, and enacted rules designed to prevent mask and vaccine requirements and to forbid municipalities from instituting their own COVID safety measures. “We think that’s the most fair way to do it,” DeSantis said last week, introducing an order making masks optional in schools. 

But Texas, led by *Greg Abbott*, who has also banned local COVID ordinances, has come roaring back. On Thursday, the state released a new guidance that somehow makes DeSantis’s effort to block cruise ships from requiring vaccines seem smart: Under recommendations from the Texas Education Agency, schools do not need to conduct contract tracing and do not need to let parents know if a student has tested positive for the virus. If a student does come into contact with an infected person, a parent can still send them to school under the new guidance.

tightening precautions while the delta variant surges across the country, are perhaps best described as pro-COVID. Not only are they declining to push vaccinations, as other government and business officials are doing with increased urgency, the two governors are actively standing in the way of precautions to at least limit the spread of the virus, which they’ve cavalierly downplayed. “This is our COVID season,” DeSantis shrugged Thursday.

Their posturing—a calculated play to the coterie of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers, and culture warriors who make up the MAGA base—poses a significant public health threat, and not just to the unfortunate residents of their respective states, who may not take much comfort in DeSantis’s explanation that it’s “COVID season” as their hospitals once again fill up. (Speaking of hospitals, DeSantis on Thursday came out against health care facilities requiring staff to be vaccinated: “It’s not something I support,” he said.) In nurturing conditions for the virus to spread, DeSantis and Abbott may be overseeing a breeding ground for potential new variants—ones that health officials fear could prove wilier than the delta mutation, which is more infectious than the original strain but still isn’t much of a match for vaccines. (Despite intense media coverage, breakthrough cases among the inoculated remain rare and are overwhelmingly mild or asymptomatic.)

“When you give it ample opportunity to mutate,” Dr. *Anthony Fauci* said Thursday, “you may sooner or later get another variant, and it is possible that that variant might be in some respects worse than the already very difficult variant we’re dealing with now.”


There have been at least two positive developments since the delta threat exploded in recent weeks. First, vaccinations, which stalled for much of the summer, have accelerated, suggesting that the emergence of the more contagious strain has convinced at least some holdouts to finally get their shots. Second, setbacks seem to have spurred the government, along with the private sector, to take a much more aggressive tack on vaccines. Localities are beginning to require proof of vaccination to engage in aspects of public life. Governments and businesses are mandating that employees be vaccinated, with some, like United Airlines, threatening termination for those who refuse. The Biden administration, meanwhile, may be about to take its most dramatic step yet: According to the _Washington Post_, the president is considering a plan to withhold federal funds from institutions, from businesses to universities, in order to compel vaccinations. The move, which would impact millions of Americans, has the potential to reach the one-third of adults who haven’t been vaccinated in a way that existing incentive programs have not. It would also reflect the gravity of the moment in a way that promising free weed for shots doesn’t. “We keep referring to this COVID thing like it’s an emergency,” *Ezekiel Emanuel*, a bioethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, told the _Post_, “and then we don’t behave like it’s a wartime emergency.”

Such a move would, of course, come with plenty of blowback from conservatives like DeSantis and Abbott. But if they’re going to take drastic measures that could intensify and prolong the pandemic, it’s more than reasonable for Biden and others to take equally drastic measures to bring it to an end. Vaccinations through the late winter and spring drove down caseloads dramatically, giving Americans a sweet taste of post-pandemic life. The ability to get more Americans vaccinated in the coming weeks may determine whether this late summer surge is a brief blip, or the beginning of a return to darker times we’d hoped to leave in 2020. Abbott, DeSantis, and others on the MAGA right aren’t helping, nor are they getting out of the way. Fortunately, other leaders, in government and in business, are simply going around them.











						Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules
					

While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.




					www.vanityfair.com


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Since you think you're able to speak for me, maybe I don't need to post here anymore.
> 
> I have _never_ said IVM was a conspiracy. I said there's not enough studies to prove it does what QV seems to think it does.
> 
> It could very well be useful in treatment of COVID.
> 
> Others seem to think there's some kind of conspiracy to supress studies, but I haven't seen proof of that at all.  Google invermectin, you get loads of results; studies, articles, etc.


This is where you sound like a muppet. It’s not me saying IVM works, it’s doctors. I’m just pointing that out.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Until it's approved and then it's a conspiracy drug....


Baseless


----------



## Altair

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423820725694214148
stuff on twitter right now.


----------



## FSTO

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1423820725694214148
> stuff on twitter right now.


The IVOMEC my brother uses on his herd is applied by pouring it on the animals's back. Never heard of an injectable type.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> This is where you sound like a muppet. It’s not me saying IVM works, it’s doctors. I’m just pointing that out.


Better a muppet than a shill.


----------



## Altair

FSTO said:


> The IVOMEC my brother uses on his herd is applied by pouring it on the animals's back. Never heard of an injectable type.


Neither have I, but who is to argue with Dr. Twitter right now.?

Darwin will take care of them.


----------



## suffolkowner

FSTO said:


> The IVOMEC my brother uses on his herd is applied by pouring it on the animals's back. Never heard of an injectable type.


horses, sheep and goats are generally given it orally


----------



## lenaitch

Veterinary Ivomec (Ivomectin) can be administered topically (pour-on or drench; i.e. 'sheep dip'), orally or by injection.

(link refers to domestic animals)

_"Ivermectin may be combined with other deworming medications. Ivermectin is available as tablets, chewable tablets, a topical liquid (for ear mite treatments), and an injectable that your veterinarian will administer."_​​_





						Ivermectin
					

Ivermectin is most commonly used as a heartworm preventive in dogs and cats. It also used off label for treating a variety of internal and external parasites. Ivermectin may be combined with other deworming medications. Ivermectin is available as tablets, chewable tablets, a topical liquid (for...




					vcacanada.com
				



_​​


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:


> Florida vs. Texas in the 'Dummy Off':
> 
> 
> 
> Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules​While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.
> 
> 
> Earlier this week, President *Joe Biden* called on elected officials to help defeat the COVID-19 pandemic or “get out of the way.” Rather than heed his advice, the nation’s most irresponsible leaders have continued to do their thing, with states like Texas and Florida—which account for about a third of infections in the United States—seemingly competing to see who can come up with the most deranged approaches to the deadly virus.
> 
> Thanks to *Ron DeSantis*, the profoundly cynical and incorrigibly smug Florida governor, the Sunshine State had lead by a nose in this race to the bottom. DeSantis has mocked public health officials as caseloads skyrocketed, pursued an idiotic offensive against Biden, and enacted rules designed to prevent mask and vaccine requirements and to forbid municipalities from instituting their own COVID safety measures. “We think that’s the most fair way to do it,” DeSantis said last week, introducing an order making masks optional in schools.
> 
> But Texas, led by *Greg Abbott*, who has also banned local COVID ordinances, has come roaring back. On Thursday, the state released a new guidance that somehow makes DeSantis’s effort to block cruise ships from requiring vaccines seem smart: Under recommendations from the Texas Education Agency, schools do not need to conduct contract tracing and do not need to let parents know if a student has tested positive for the virus. If a student does come into contact with an infected person, a parent can still send them to school under the new guidance.
> 
> tightening precautions while the delta variant surges across the country, are perhaps best described as pro-COVID. Not only are they declining to push vaccinations, as other government and business officials are doing with increased urgency, the two governors are actively standing in the way of precautions to at least limit the spread of the virus, which they’ve cavalierly downplayed. “This is our COVID season,” DeSantis shrugged Thursday.
> 
> Their posturing—a calculated play to the coterie of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers, and culture warriors who make up the MAGA base—poses a significant public health threat, and not just to the unfortunate residents of their respective states, who may not take much comfort in DeSantis’s explanation that it’s “COVID season” as their hospitals once again fill up. (Speaking of hospitals, DeSantis on Thursday came out against health care facilities requiring staff to be vaccinated: “It’s not something I support,” he said.) In nurturing conditions for the virus to spread, DeSantis and Abbott may be overseeing a breeding ground for potential new variants—ones that health officials fear could prove wilier than the delta mutation, which is more infectious than the original strain but still isn’t much of a match for vaccines. (Despite intense media coverage, breakthrough cases among the inoculated remain rare and are overwhelmingly mild or asymptomatic.)
> 
> “When you give it ample opportunity to mutate,” Dr. *Anthony Fauci* said Thursday, “you may sooner or later get another variant, and it is possible that that variant might be in some respects worse than the already very difficult variant we’re dealing with now.”
> 
> 
> There have been at least two positive developments since the delta threat exploded in recent weeks. First, vaccinations, which stalled for much of the summer, have accelerated, suggesting that the emergence of the more contagious strain has convinced at least some holdouts to finally get their shots. Second, setbacks seem to have spurred the government, along with the private sector, to take a much more aggressive tack on vaccines. Localities are beginning to require proof of vaccination to engage in aspects of public life. Governments and businesses are mandating that employees be vaccinated, with some, like United Airlines, threatening termination for those who refuse. The Biden administration, meanwhile, may be about to take its most dramatic step yet: According to the _Washington Post_, the president is considering a plan to withhold federal funds from institutions, from businesses to universities, in order to compel vaccinations. The move, which would impact millions of Americans, has the potential to reach the one-third of adults who haven’t been vaccinated in a way that existing incentive programs have not. It would also reflect the gravity of the moment in a way that promising free weed for shots doesn’t. “We keep referring to this COVID thing like it’s an emergency,” *Ezekiel Emanuel*, a bioethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, told the _Post_, “and then we don’t behave like it’s a wartime emergency.”
> 
> Such a move would, of course, come with plenty of blowback from conservatives like DeSantis and Abbott. But if they’re going to take drastic measures that could intensify and prolong the pandemic, it’s more than reasonable for Biden and others to take equally drastic measures to bring it to an end. Vaccinations through the late winter and spring drove down caseloads dramatically, giving Americans a sweet taste of post-pandemic life. The ability to get more Americans vaccinated in the coming weeks may determine whether this late summer surge is a brief blip, or the beginning of a return to darker times we’d hoped to leave in 2020. Abbott, DeSantis, and others on the MAGA right aren’t helping, nor are they getting out of the way. Fortunately, other leaders, in government and in business, are simply going around them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules
> 
> 
> While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vanityfair.com


Vanity Fair? 🤣 Proven Biden shills. Let's  not talk about the 600,000 infected illegals that have been shipped all over the states. Thousands to both those states. Texas alone has around 7,000 living under a single set of interstate overpasses. Biden has ordered states to not interfere with federal immigration resettlement, so states can't even say no to receiving them, where to put them or how to take care of them. Even if they knew how many biden is dropping off in the middle of the night at obscure airports and bus stations.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

When it comes to administration of ivermectin, there is only one person here that I'm aware of, that knows what they are talking about. That is Suffolkowner who actually owns and works a farm with livestock on it. Personal experience trumps Google and Twitter and most media.


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> When it comes to administration of ivermectin, there is only one person here that I'm aware of, that knows what they are talking about. That is Suffolkowner who actually owns and works a farm with livestock on it. Personal experience trumps Google and Twitter and most media.


Yes, I hope @suffolkowner can instruct people here on the proper human dosage


----------



## FJAG

Here's a little tidbit I never knew about before:



> Where did the article “George Washington and the First Mass Military Inoculation” go? - Ask a Librarian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.loc.gov



🍻


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Florida vs. Texas in the 'Dummy Off':
> 
> 
> 
> Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules​While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.
> 
> 
> Earlier this week, President *Joe Biden* called on elected officials to help defeat the COVID-19 pandemic or “get out of the way.” Rather than heed his advice, the nation’s most irresponsible leaders have continued to do their thing, with states like Texas and Florida—which account for about a third of infections in the United States—seemingly competing to see who can come up with the most deranged approaches to the deadly virus.
> 
> Thanks to *Ron DeSantis*, the profoundly cynical and incorrigibly smug Florida governor, the Sunshine State had lead by a nose in this race to the bottom. DeSantis has mocked public health officials as caseloads skyrocketed, pursued an idiotic offensive against Biden, and enacted rules designed to prevent mask and vaccine requirements and to forbid municipalities from instituting their own COVID safety measures. “We think that’s the most fair way to do it,” DeSantis said last week, introducing an order making masks optional in schools.
> 
> But Texas, led by *Greg Abbott*, who has also banned local COVID ordinances, has come roaring back. On Thursday, the state released a new guidance that somehow makes DeSantis’s effort to block cruise ships from requiring vaccines seem smart: Under recommendations from the Texas Education Agency, schools do not need to conduct contract tracing and do not need to let parents know if a student has tested positive for the virus. If a student does come into contact with an infected person, a parent can still send them to school under the new guidance.
> 
> tightening precautions while the delta variant surges across the country, are perhaps best described as pro-COVID. Not only are they declining to push vaccinations, as other government and business officials are doing with increased urgency, the two governors are actively standing in the way of precautions to at least limit the spread of the virus, which they’ve cavalierly downplayed. “This is our COVID season,” DeSantis shrugged Thursday.
> 
> Their posturing—a calculated play to the coterie of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers, and culture warriors who make up the MAGA base—poses a significant public health threat, and not just to the unfortunate residents of their respective states, who may not take much comfort in DeSantis’s explanation that it’s “COVID season” as their hospitals once again fill up. (Speaking of hospitals, DeSantis on Thursday came out against health care facilities requiring staff to be vaccinated: “It’s not something I support,” he said.) In nurturing conditions for the virus to spread, DeSantis and Abbott may be overseeing a breeding ground for potential new variants—ones that health officials fear could prove wilier than the delta mutation, which is more infectious than the original strain but still isn’t much of a match for vaccines. (Despite intense media coverage, breakthrough cases among the inoculated remain rare and are overwhelmingly mild or asymptomatic.)
> 
> “When you give it ample opportunity to mutate,” Dr. *Anthony Fauci* said Thursday, “you may sooner or later get another variant, and it is possible that that variant might be in some respects worse than the already very difficult variant we’re dealing with now.”
> 
> 
> There have been at least two positive developments since the delta threat exploded in recent weeks. First, vaccinations, which stalled for much of the summer, have accelerated, suggesting that the emergence of the more contagious strain has convinced at least some holdouts to finally get their shots. Second, setbacks seem to have spurred the government, along with the private sector, to take a much more aggressive tack on vaccines. Localities are beginning to require proof of vaccination to engage in aspects of public life. Governments and businesses are mandating that employees be vaccinated, with some, like United Airlines, threatening termination for those who refuse. The Biden administration, meanwhile, may be about to take its most dramatic step yet: According to the _Washington Post_, the president is considering a plan to withhold federal funds from institutions, from businesses to universities, in order to compel vaccinations. The move, which would impact millions of Americans, has the potential to reach the one-third of adults who haven’t been vaccinated in a way that existing incentive programs have not. It would also reflect the gravity of the moment in a way that promising free weed for shots doesn’t. “We keep referring to this COVID thing like it’s an emergency,” *Ezekiel Emanuel*, a bioethicist at the University of Pennsylvania, told the _Post_, “and then we don’t behave like it’s a wartime emergency.”
> 
> Such a move would, of course, come with plenty of blowback from conservatives like DeSantis and Abbott. But if they’re going to take drastic measures that could intensify and prolong the pandemic, it’s more than reasonable for Biden and others to take equally drastic measures to bring it to an end. Vaccinations through the late winter and spring drove down caseloads dramatically, giving Americans a sweet taste of post-pandemic life. The ability to get more Americans vaccinated in the coming weeks may determine whether this late summer surge is a brief blip, or the beginning of a return to darker times we’d hoped to leave in 2020. Abbott, DeSantis, and others on the MAGA right aren’t helping, nor are they getting out of the way. Fortunately, other leaders, in government and in business, are simply going around them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Florida and Texas Are Competing to See Who Can Come Up With the Dumbest COVID Rules
> 
> 
> While Joe Biden calls on elected officials to help fight the pandemic or “get out of the way,” Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott are outdoing one another to see who can make their state more virus-riddled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vanityfair.com


Party politics aside ( there is a political Covid thread for that ), are these public health decisions based on science?


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said:


> Where did the article “George Washington and the First Mass Military Inoculation” go? - Ask a Librarian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.loc.gov


Professor Dershowitz opined the US Supreme Court would uphold Covid-19 vaccine mandates, citing George Washington's requirement that all troops be inoculated against smallpox during the Revolutionary War.


----------



## suffolkowner

If people want to administer ivermectin to themselves, all power to them. I haven't bothered to look at any of the studies on it's efficacy against Covid-19. They should at least be parasite free


----------



## FSTO

suffolkowner said:


> horses, sheep and goats are generally given it orally


Since we've never owned those animals, we've only used the pour on type.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Louisiana's #1!

Louisiana Has Among the Highest Daily COVID Infections in the World​
In recent weeks, hospitals across the country have felt overwhelmed with the surge of coronavirus cases. On Saturday, Florida reported nearly 24,000 new cases, an all-time single-day record for the state. Meanwhile, in the last seven days, Louisiana, at 693 cases per 100,000 people, has the highest number of new cases per capita in the United States, followed by Florida (627) and Arkansas (502). Dr. Joe Kanter, the state’s top health officer, told the Associated Press that 1 percent of Louisiana’s population contracted COVID-19 in the past two weeks.

Zoom out, and one can see an even more troubling trend: When compared to other countries with populations over 1 million people in the last seven days, Louisiana is tied with Botswana for the highest daily case average per capita in the world—at 99 cases per 100,000 people, according to the _New York Times_‘ coronavirus case tracker for the United States and the world. Florida, meanwhile, is not far behind with a daily average of 90 per 100,000 people, ahead of nearby Cuba (81 per 100,000). “If Louisiana and Florida were countries, and not states, Louisiana would be the highest incidence country in the world and Florida would be the fourth one,” epidemiologist Michael Osterholm said on MSBC last week.

The troubling surge comes as GOP governors like Florida’s Ron DeSantis and Texas’s Greg Abbott have imposed statewide bans on mask mandates in schools as their states’ hospitals grapple with the surge in COVID cases. In Louisiana, where just 37 percent of people are fully vaccinated, Democratic Gov. John Bel Edwards has reissued a statewide mask mandate, even as his Republican attorney general undermined it.









						Louisiana has among the highest daily COVID infections in the world
					

Florida isn't far behind.




					www.motherjones.com


----------



## Altair

Health Canada adds bells palsy to the list of rare vaccine side effects.


----------



## QV

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/biontech-earnings-1.6134619
		


German pharmaceutical maker BioNTech, which developed the first widely used coronavirus vaccine with Pfizer, swung to a huge profit in the second quarter on record sales, with far more forecast to come.

The Mainz-based company said it made a profit of almost 2.8 billion euros in the three months between April and June of 2021. That's about $4.1 billion Cdn. In the same period last year, the company was losing hundreds of millions of dollars.


----------



## Remius

Zoom also made it to the Billion dollar mark over the pandemic and still rising.  Something like 4000% increase from pre pandemic profits.


----------



## Remius

Oh and Gamesworkshop made record profits during the pandemic and is now worth 3.8 Billion.









						Games Workshop profits surge as gamers rush to buy Warhammer
					

CEO praises “cracking performance”




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> Louisiana's #1!
> 
> Louisiana Has Among the Highest Daily COVID Infections in the World​
> In recent weeks, hospitals across the country have felt overwhelmed with the surge of coronavirus cases. On Saturday, Florida reported nearly 24,000 new cases, an all-time single-day record for the state. Meanwhile, in the last seven days, Louisiana, at 693 cases per 100,000 people, has the highest number of new cases per capita in the United States, followed by Florida (627) and Arkansas (502). Dr. Joe Kanter, the state’s top health officer, told the Associated Press that 1 percent of Louisiana’s population contracted COVID-19 in the past two weeks.
> 
> Zoom out, and one can see an even more troubling trend: When compared to other countries with populations over 1 million people in the last seven days, Louisiana is tied with Botswana for the highest daily case average per capita in the world—at 99 cases per 100,000 people, according to the _New York Times_‘ coronavirus case tracker for the United States and the world. Florida, meanwhile, is not far behind with a daily average of 90 per 100,000 people, ahead of nearby Cuba (81 per 100,000). “If Louisiana and Florida were countries, and not states, Louisiana would be the highest incidence country in the world and Florida would be the fourth one,” epidemiologist Michael Osterholm said on MSBC last week.
> 
> The troubling surge comes as GOP governors like Florida’s Ron DeSantis and Texas’s Greg Abbott have imposed statewide bans on mask mandates in schools as their states’ hospitals grapple with the surge in COVID cases. In Louisiana, where just 37 percent of people are fully vaccinated, Democratic Gov. John Bel Edwards has reissued a statewide mask mandate, even as his Republican attorney general undermined it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Louisiana has among the highest daily COVID infections in the world
> 
> 
> Florida isn't far behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.motherjones.com


I see your Louisiana and raise you a Arkansas


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424936041274912789


----------



## OceanBonfire

Good news with Moderna:









						Moderna may be superior to Pfizer against Delta; breakthrough odds rise with time
					

The following is a roundup of some of the latest scientific studies on the novel coronavirus and efforts to find treatments and vaccines for COVID-19.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Antibody levels predictive of Moderna's vaccine efficacy -study
					

Antibody levels are a good predictor for how effective Moderna Inc's (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine is, according to a new study released on Tuesday, a finding which could help speed up future clinical trials for vaccines against the disease.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Messerschmitt

PMedMoe said:


> Here's a good visual.


Source?


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Source?


The source is on it. 

It says,



> Data from Covidtracker as of July 24, 2012.








						Covidtracker - Covid-19 Coronavirus Tracker
					






					www.covidtracker.com


----------



## OldSolduer

suffolkowner said:


> They should at least be parasite free


You mean the LPC will go away??


----------



## QV

Flashpoint: The end of an illusion of control
					

Politicians, school and public health officials are under a lot of pressure again.




					www.tribstar.com


----------



## MilEME09

Chinese scientist collecting bat samples may have been first to catch COVID-19: WHO inquiry chief
					

Dr. Embarek said WHO investigators were forced to conclude that a lab leak was "extremely unlikely" in their official report to avoid further arguments with…




					nationalpost.com
				




New orgin theory


----------



## Quirky

So what does this mean for CF personel? 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131
		




> This is not a recommendation. Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic LeBlanc said that all public servants and some employees in federally regulated sectors must comply with the vaccine mandate or risk losing their jobs.



Would the CF fall under the *some* category or will members just be released under whatever category for refusing vaccination?


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> So what does this mean for CF personel?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would the CF fall under the *some* category or will members just be released under whatever category for refusing vaccination?


I’m inclined to think if _any_ federal employer were to go mandatory vaccines, it would be CAF.

I imagine every federal sector union is scrambling right now. There will be a small proportion of employees with very strong feelings on this.


----------



## OldSolduer

Quirky said:


> So what does this mean for CF personel?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would the CF fall under the *some* category or will members just be released under whatever category for refusing vaccination?


 I would say "yes" BUT there's an elephant in the room no one seems to see.
 A CAF member refused the anthrax vaccine. The case was stayed with no solution.


----------



## Weinie

OldSolduer said:


> I would say "yes" BUT there's an elephant in the room no one seems to see.
> A CAF member refused the anthrax vaccine. The case was stayed with no solution.


Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)


----------



## MilEME09

Weinie said:


> Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)


But that opens up the universality of service can of worms


----------



## Weinie

MilEME09 said:


> But that opens up the universality of service can of worms


Yes, but it is also a forcing function. We are at about 90% of folks who have at least one dose(Reg Force). Factor in another 1% who for one reason or another cannot get a vax, and we reduce almost 10% of dead weight.


----------



## Quirky

Weinie said:


> Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)


So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.


----------



## Weinie

Quirky said:


> So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.


Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members. 

My supposition would actually make it disadvantageous for a CAF member, who wants to advance, to stay employed, unless they get the shots, and would eventually lead to release.  I suspect that we(the CAF) will be far more prescriptive (and ruthless) than our PS counterparts.


----------



## Quirky

Weinie said:


> Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members.
> 
> My supposition would actually make it disadvantageous for a CAF member, who wants to advance, to stay employed, unless they get the shots, and would eventually lead to release.  I suspect that we(the CAF) will be far more prescriptive (and ruthless) than our PS counterparts.



It could be as simple as:
1. Make your timing for your vaccine or
2. Release - No longer fit for service.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> I can see that happening.


That would be racist.


----------



## Kilted

Weinie said:


> Yes, but it is also a forcing function. We are at about 90% of folks who have at least one dose(Reg Force). Factor in another 1% who for one reason or another cannot get a vax, and we reduce almost 10% of dead weight.



Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the numbers are when they start tracking the reserves.  I suspect that the vaccination rate is lower than 90%.  I also suspect that we might have a few people who decide to release over it


----------



## Kilted

Also, are we likely also looking at mandatory vaccination for anyone stepping foot on DND property? I'm guessing that would mainly affect Cadets.


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> Wait til the unions weigh in with their creative ideation on why it should not apply to union members.


HR experts correct me if I am wrong.

My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.

We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.

More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine,  and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.


Quarantine
45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
with pay for the duration of the quarantine.

Working Quarantine
45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
(ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
(iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
(iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
(v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
(vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
(vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> HR experts correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.
> 
> We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.
> 
> More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine,  and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.
> 
> 
> Quarantine
> 45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
> with pay for the duration of the quarantine.
> 
> Working Quarantine
> 45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
> (ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
> paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
> (iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
> ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
> their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
> to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
> (iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
> (v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
> shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
> under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
> (vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
> any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
> (vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
> of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
> premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
> not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).


Not everything is based on paramedics CBA. Realpolitik is what matters here.


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> Not everything is based on paramedics CBA.


Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.

You brought up the subject of unions. Not me.



> Realpolitik is what matters here.



Didn't realise this is now the Covid political thread.

Title on this one says, "All things Novel Coronavirus".


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> HR experts correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> My - guess - as a layperson is, it would depend if a vaccine policy is a mandatory subject of bargaining.
> 
> We went through something similar in the union I was a member of regarding annual mandatory flu shots. Everything is negotiable.
> 
> More importantly, I would say based on my time in a union is to have a Quarantine, and especially a Working Quarantine Policy in case you are ordered to report for operations. Financially, it made a big difference when I was on quarantine,  and still does with Covid, and whatever comes next.
> 
> 
> Quarantine
> 45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence
> with pay for the duration of the quarantine.
> 
> Working Quarantine
> 45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
> (ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be
> paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
> (iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a
> ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
> their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred
> to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
> (iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.
> Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
> (v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled
> shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
> under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
> (vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by
> any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
> (vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
> of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine
> premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
> not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).



Not an HR expert, but I've picked up a few things and will definitely be dealing with this at work.

Collective agreements can deal with some things and not with others. Collective agreements (at least federal public service ones) have limitations on content under the Federal Public Service Labour Relations Act. They can't bargain anything that would require legislative amendment, for one. I suspect we'll see this thing come to pass via federal regulation promulgated by Order In Council.

I have serious ethical concerns with this. I'm ardently pro-vax and got it as early as I could, but I'm concerned about making it mandatory for everyone in this context, at the risk of their jobs. A few considerations:

1- The articulation for this is apparently occupational health and safety under the Canada Labour Code. If an employee shrugs and says "you were fine with me working at home for the past year, I'll just keep doing that", does the government have a leg to stand on?

2- The vaccines are not yet approved fully for regular use. Minor thing IMHO, but still relevant.

3- The data seem to suggest that vaccines are very effective in preventing serious illness, but the data is much less supportive of them preventing people from becoming infected or transmitting it. I want to understand the rationale on this from an occupational health and safety standpoint if my vaccine doesn't really protect anyone else but me. Very possible my understanding of the data is wrong.

I'm concerned this may be less about an objectively defensible occupational health and safety concern, and more about taking advantage of a 'captive audience' of employees subject to federal regulation in order to boost compliance numbers.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Weinie said:


> Yup. But the CAF can impose significant restrictions on those who do not comply. No travel, no courses, no deployments, no exercises, no promotion. (although there are some of my Atlantic provinces brethren that would likely soak this up)


I'd say release them.


----------



## cavalryman

brihard said:


> I'm concerned this may be less about an objectively defensible occupational health and safety concern, and more about taking advantage of a 'captive audience' of employees subject to federal regulation in order to boost compliance numbers.


Having spent almost 3 years in PCO (under Jean Chretien) and 2 years in TBS in relatively senior positions, albeit in the first decade of this century, the cynicism I developed from my experience in those central agencies makes me tend to believe it's pretty much a 'captive audience' gambit to boost numbers. It fits with the mentality I witnessed firsthand.


----------



## Weinie

cavalryman said:


> Having spent almost 3 years in PCO (under Jean Chretien) and 2 years in TBS in relatively senior positions, albeit in the first decade of this century, the cynicism I developed from my experience in those central agencies makes me tend to believe it's pretty much a 'captive audience' gambit to boost numbers. It fits with the mentality I witnessed firsthand.


Or, we can all get vaccinated, be safe, and then take away all of the conspiracy theories from all sides .


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Quirky said:


> So a CAF member can keep their full benefit $65k job and pension while everyone else in the PS loses their job? Seems fair….I’d rather see the same rules apply government wide.


Hmm. I'd  agree, with a caveat. When the PS is ready to sign that unlimited liability contract, then they can equate their jobs to the military. Technically, it may be that the CAF is a PS job, but I've  always considered our station in life as something more important and a much higher calling than that of a public servant. Probably doesn't  mean much to the conversation or a dead end tangent. While our wage and some other stuff is tied to the PS, the military has always been a very different beast, unique to our profession. Nothing else compares to it. Just my opinion based on personal bias.


----------



## cavalryman

Weinie said:


> Or, we can all get vaccinated, be safe, and then take away all of the conspiracy theories from all sides .


You forgot the /s tag.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.
> 
> You brought up the subject of unions. Not me.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't realise this is now the Covid political thread.
> 
> Title on this one says, "All things Novel Coronavirus".


Stop your self-righteous and indulgent complaining. Everything you post is through the lens of Toronto paramedics that you left a gazillion years ago. Your experience has value when we discuss  EMS, but your framing every response to multiple subjects, in terms of Toronto EMS, is wearing thin.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Didn't realise this is now the Covid political thread.
> 
> Title on this one says, "All things Novel Coronavirus".


 When I see *All things, *I would assume the politics of it also would be encompassed in the *All things *if that's  where the conversation went. Just my reading of it. YMMV.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> Hmm. I'd  agree, with a caveat. When the PS is ready to sign that unlimited liability contract, then they can equate their jobs to the military. Technically, it may be that the CAF is a PS job, but I've  always considered our station in life as something more important and a much higher calling than that of a public servant. Probably doesn't  mean much to the conversation or a dead end tangent. While our wage and some other stuff is tied to the PS, the military has always been a very different beast, unique to our profession. Nothing else compares to it. Just my opinion based on personal bias.



I agree, don't see the clerks and secretaries out filling sandbags or fighting fires 12 hours a day with no extra pay......I mean I would have done it, but I'd expect $$$$$$$$$$......


----------



## Good2Golf

Weinie said:


> Stop your self-righteous and indulgent complaining. Everything you post is through the lens of Toronto paramedics that you left a gazillion years ago. Your experience has value when we discuss  EMS, but your framing every response to multiple subjects, in terms of Toronto EMS, is wearing thin.


----------



## mariomike

Like I replied to you,Weinie,


> Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.
> You brought up the subject of unions. Not me.



I guess I have to repeat this: The language remains the same. Regardless of job classification.

Whatever your personal opinion is about "Working Quarantine" pay,  it is an important financial item to include in any collective agreement, of any job classification, if is in not already.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> Like I replied to you,Weinie,
> 
> 
> I guess I have to repeat this: The language remains the same. Regardless of job classification.
> 
> Whatever your personal opinion is about "Working Quarantine" pay,  it is an important financial item to include in any collective agreement, of any job classification, if is in not already.


Sigh........ and I guess I have to repeat this.........realpolitik.


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> Sigh........ and I guess I have to repeat this.........realpolitik.


Realpolitik: "A system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations."

I'm talking about money. Working Quarantine pay is practical. So are unions.

You brought up unions. Not me.

It may not matter to you. But, Working Quarantine Pay might matter to a union guy.

Whatever the job classification.

Working Quaratine Pay has nothing to do with "moral or ideological considerations."

Sigh back at ya, Weinie.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> Realpolitik: "A system of politics or principles based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations."
> 
> I'm talking about money. Working Quarantine pay is practical. So are unions.
> 
> You brought up unions. Not me.
> 
> It may not matter to you. But, Working Quarantine Pay might matter to a union guy.
> 
> Whatever the job classification.
> 
> Working Quaratine Pay has nothing to do with "moral or ideological considerations."
> 
> Sigh back at ya, Weinie.


Your experience at the municipal union level may have been extensive. But your exposure to federal level unions makes me want to say one of two things: either educate yourself or STFU.

This is, potentially. a federal level policy, and you cannot insert your dated municipal injects into this.

No sigh now. Downright consternation at your misunderstanding of this.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Like I replied to you,Weinie,
> 
> 
> I guess I have to repeat this: The language remains the same. Regardless of job classification.
> 
> Whatever your personal opinion is about "Working Quarantine" pay,  it is an important financial item to include in any collective agreement, of any job classification, if is in not already.


If you're in a position to have a collective agreement. The CAF has no such luxury. Outside of your spec pay or things like diving or flying incentive, the military does what it is told, how and when they're told for not a dollar more than their standard, bi-weekly pay. We pretty well need to go where people want to kill us for any extra cash. In exchange, we get our biweekly salary no matter our disposition.


----------



## brihard

PSAC has stated its support for this policy. They’re the biggest.









						PSAC statement on vaccination requirements for federal public service workers
					






					psacunion.ca


----------



## Krypt0n_K0bra

We had this discussion about the right to refusal of the Vaccine as a Military Member. So in short and as stated in the National Defence Act...

"*126* Every person who, on receiving an order to submit to inoculation, re-inoculation, vaccination, re-vaccination, other immunization procedures, immunity tests, blood examination or treatment against any infectious disease, wilfully and without reasonable excuse disobeys that order is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment."

So right now it is still voluntary until The Order is officially handed down to us. Once thats done, you don't have much choice but to get the vaccine.  The argument of approved for emergency use also means nothing. It is still a vaccine approved by Health Canada. Legal said there is no difference.


----------



## mariomike

You win, Weinie.


Weinie said:


> But your exposure to federal level unions makes me want to say one of two things: either educate yourself or STFU.


Ok Weinie. I'll STFU.

Just one question to help educate me. Do federal unions have Working Quarantine Pay in their collective agreements?

( I don't mean working from home. )

Incidentally, that "dated" inject is still current.


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> You win, Weinie.
> 
> Ok Weinie. I'll STFU, and let you educate me about federal unions.
> 
> Just one question. Do federal unions have Working Quarantine Pay in their collective agreements?
> 
> Incidenatally, that "dated" municipal inject is still current.


You have missed, by a country mile, what is the important part of the current discussion. 

The subject was "Gov't to impose vaccinations on all federal workers."

I could(and most fellow Canadians) give a fat rats ass about "Working Quarantine Pay" .Until you brought it up in your post above,  I  have never even heard the phrase, a sacrament to it's irrelevance.


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> I could(and most fellow Canadians) give a fat rats ass about "Working Quarantine Pay" .Until you brought it up in your post above,  I  have never even heard the phrase, a sacrament to it's irrelevance.


Thank-you for answering my question, Weinie.

A member of a federal union who might be ordered to report for duty, while on Quarantine, ( as opposed to working from home ) might "give a fat rats ass" though.

Even if you do not.


----------



## Altair

I guess when an election is about to be called, every thread that was previously devoid of politics becomes political.

Meanwhile the political covid thread sits gathering dust.


----------



## mariomike

Apparently the word is "realpolitik".


----------



## Weinie

mariomike said:


> Thank-you for answering my question, Weinie.
> 
> A member of a federal union who might be ordered to report for duty, while on Quarantine, ( as opposed to working from home ) might "give a fat rats ass" though.
> 
> Even if you do not.


And you have just proved the absurdity of how unions will fight this, which was my original premise. Thanks


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> And you have just proved the absurdity of how unions will fight this, which was my original premise. Thanks


You are welcome.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> Apparently the word is "realpolitik".


Realpolitik in a thread about a virus, but no realpolitik in the thread about the virus and politics.

Makes perfect sense, thanks for helping me understand.


----------



## mariomike

> Meanwhile the political covid thread sits gathering dust.


That's the way I read it.  🤷‍♂️


Weinie said:


> Realpolitik is what matters here.





Weinie said:


> Sigh........ and I guess I have to repeat this.........realpolitik.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> That's the way I read it.  🤷‍♂️


Repeat something enough and it becomes fact?


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:


> And you have just proved the absurdity of how unions will fight this, which was my original premise. Thanks


No... What he’s talking about is already covered under the Treasury Board’s directions on COVID, including the ‘699’ leave code.

Unions may or may not fight this. PSAC has already shown they will not, others remain to be seen, but PSAC will be a bellwether in this. Unions may not fight it much at all.


----------



## Weinie

brihard said:


> No... What he’s talking about is already covered under the Treasury Board’s directions on COVID, including the ‘699’ leave code.
> 
> Unions may or may not fight this. PSAC has already shown they will not, others remain to be seen, but PSAC will be a bellwether in this. Unions may not fight it much at all.


Well, we will see.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:


> Well, we will see.


Yup. I’m in a pretty good position to see some of it and I’ll let you know.

What I think is more likely is that, rather than a wholesale objection to the policy writ large, unions may be more likely to keep their heads mostly down and individually represent/defend members who buck the policy and end up facing discipline.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

The Unions kind of tied their own hands to fight ordered vaccinations by [rightly] demanding safer workplaces.........."here, roll up your sleeves and let us help you with that."


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> That's the way I read it.  🤷‍♂️


Use your mod powers and merge them then. This thread is All Things Corona, including politics. Not, Some Things Corona, so that political thread belongs here, IMO. Again, YMMV.


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> Use your mod powers and merge them then. This thread is All Things Corona, including politics. Not, Some Things Corona, so that political thread belongs here, IMO. Again, YMMV.


Good point.









						SARS‑CoV‑2 Medical Talk
					






					army.ca


----------



## Altair

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1408729052295303171
Explains the large spike in cases and hospitalizations going on in the USA.


----------



## Altair

Column: Major study of ivermectin, the anti-vaccine crowd's latest COVID drug, finds 'no effect whatsoever'
					

Ivermectin, touted as a treatment of COVID by the anti-vaccine crowd, has "no effect," according to a major study.




					www.latimes.com
				




Yet to be peer reviewed, so grains of salt should be taken, but not a good sign for Ivermectin.


----------



## Quirky

Fishbone Jones said:


> Hmm. I'd  agree, with a caveat. When the PS is ready to sign that unlimited liability contract, then they can equate their jobs to the military. Technically, it may be that the CAF is a PS job, but I've  always considered our station in life as something more important and a much higher calling than that of a public servant. Probably doesn't  mean much to the conversation or a dead end tangent. While our wage and some other stuff is tied to the PS, the military has always been a very different beast, unique to our profession. Nothing else compares to it. Just my opinion based on personal bias.



Based on my own personal bias, I completely disagree. Unless someone in the CAF goes looking for deployments where people are shooting back, the unlimited liability means absolutely jack sh*t. You pick your trade, you know the dangers associated with it. There are times when working conditions are terrible, but 99.9% of the time, your life isn’t in any serious danger from any sort of enemy. I think many members of the CAF are self-entitled - almost all of those have never worked, or been exposed to, a civy job and don’t know just how easy they have it. Some of the complaints I’ve heard over my years are disgusting; the amount of special treatment we get is incredible. Grocery store workers for example never worked from home and got full pay during the pandemic to stay home. If the PS has forced vaccinations, we should too. Get jabbed or get out.


----------



## Altair

Altair said:


> Good point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SARS‑CoV‑2 Medical Talk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> army.ca


seems like my thread on Covid only medical talk got merged into this one, which kind of makes it seem like this is the medical talk one @Fishbone Jones


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> The Unions kind of tied their own hands to fight ordered vaccinations by [rightly] demanding safer workplaces.........."here, roll up your sleeves and let us help you with that."


#BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor


----------



## Scott

brihard said:


> Yup. I’m in a pretty good position to see some of it and I’ll let you know.
> 
> What I think is more likely is that, rather than a wholesale objection to the policy writ large, unions may be more likely to keep their heads mostly down and individually represent/defend members who buck the policy and end up facing discipline.



Work email notifications on a Saturday will always get my attention. I read the three I have about this and am soon logging back off because I'm expecting the same as above. It will be individual cases/accommodations - and management has already accepted this, and are preparing for it. Everything else that has come up as what we thought was a show stopper has so far proven to be easy. There's been a metric fuckload of good old fashioned cooperation (at times).

I'm going disc golfing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the PSAC info-machine so far ....


> ... PSAC supports measures to increase vaccination rates, including vaccination requirements for federal public service workers to protect our members, their colleagues, and our communities.
> 
> Governments and employers have an obligation to ensure our workplaces are safe for public service workers and Canadians everywhere.
> 
> Although we support the goals of the government’s proposal, it’s critical that any eventual plan put forward by the government that would collect or verify the vaccination or medical status of our members respects their legal right to privacy. The government must also provide accommodations for workers who cannot be vaccinated for reasons protected under human rights legislation.
> 
> We expect the government to continue consulting with unions on the implementation of their vaccination requirements to safeguard our members’ right to privacy and ensure that their human rights are respected ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Quirky said:


> Based on my own personal bias, I completely disagree. Unless someone in the CAF goes looking for deployments where people are shooting back, the unlimited liability means absolutely jack sh*t. You pick your trade, you know the dangers associated with it. There are times when working conditions are terrible, but 99.9% of the time, your life isn’t in any serious danger from any sort of enemy. I think many members of the CAF are self-entitled - almost all of those have never worked, or been exposed to, a civy job and don’t know just how easy they have it. Some of the complaints I’ve heard over my years are disgusting; the amount of special treatment we get is incredible. Grocery store workers for example never worked from home and got full pay during the pandemic to stay home. If the PS has forced vaccinations, we should too. Get jabbed or get out.


My wife works at a grocery store. They were considered essential workers. She has worked through the whole pandemic for minimum wage. She never got to stay home and collect anything. You can have your own personal opinion, but before you decide to deride others, get your facts sorted out.  It affects the credibility of your other opinions on the subject.


----------



## mariomike

I can't answer for Quirky, but I think s/he was saying our Essential Workers are heroes.

That's the way I understood it.

I think every sensible person feels that way.



mariomike said:


> First responder? Essential worker? Healthcare provider? After all you did during COVID, after all the sacrifice, and all the pain, the grateful public has joined together to let you know ...there is no way you are getting a monument.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Locals Protest Cuomo's Plan To Install Essential Workers Monument In Battery Park City - Gothamist
> 
> 
> Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gothamist.com


I would not begrudge them a pay raise either.


----------



## Quirky

Fishbone Jones said:


> My wife works at a grocery store. They were considered essential workers. She has worked through the whole pandemic for minimum wage. She never got to stay home and collect anything. You can have your own personal opinion, but before you decide to deride others, get your facts sorted out.  It affects the credibility of your other opinions on the subject.





mariomike said:


> I can't answer for Quirky, but I think s/he was saying our Essential Workers are heroes.



This. Along with the medical workers who never stopped in 2020, the grocery store workers, truck drivers, hell the people working at fast-food joints and liquor stores were all still working during the entire pandemic. The vast majority of the CF were "preserving the force" by sitting at home and day-drinking, many still work from home depending on the unit. 

With the CF now mandated to get Covid shots, anyone refusing can be shown the door, we don't need any dead weight.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Grocery store workers for example never worked from home and got full pay during the pandemic to stay home."

A bit confusing.  How I understand it:

Some people "worked from home and got full pay during the pandemic to stay home."

Grocery store workers were not among the "some people" (so they neither worked from home nor got paid to stay home).


----------



## Remius

I understood exactly what he was saying and he has a point.


----------



## Scott

mariomike said:


> Remove the P-word if it offends you. Substitute any other job classification. The language remains the same.


But you are still giving your examples based on your time with TEMS. It is simply not relevant. At all.

We have different regulations and codes we adhere to when you're a federal employee. 

So the differences start before we even discuss what was already (by my experience) a terribly hypothetical situation - it all started with someone being "ordered" to work while under quarantine. Something like 400 medics in the big smoke were told to get to work, and that they had to take some measures. How long did SARS last again? Covid's been a touch different.

I know of one agency with close to 50,000 employees. I don't even know how many job descriptions. This has never been a consideration. Full stop. Not once. Not even gamed out. The unions we work with have been great throughout. We congratulate them for that, and should.


----------



## mariomike

I asked a question:


> Do federal unions have Working Quarantine Pay in their collective agreements?



You answered it.:


> This has never been a consideration. Full stop. Not once. Not even gamed out.



Thank-you.


----------



## Altair

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428057133673631747
Dear god.

Boosters forever?


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> With more than half of America's largest police department unvaccinated against COVID-19, the NYPD said that police who want to remove their masks at work must provide proof they’ve gotten the COVID vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYPD cops must either wear mask, prove they’re vaxxed - or face disciplinary action
> 
> 
> In a statement Wednesday, the NYPD said cops who want to remove their masks at work must provide proof they’ve taken the COVID-19 vaccination to the department’s medical division.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nydailynews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Members who do not have official proof of COVID-19 vaccination on file with the Medical Division must wear a face covering at all times while working, whether indoors or outside, including while driving in Department vehicles,” the mandate stated.


You really focus on new york.

Why is that?


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> You really focus on new york.
> 
> Why is that?


Because it is North America's largest city?

But, don't worry about it. I removed the post if it bothers you that much.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> Because it is North America's largest city?
> 
> But, don't worry about it. I removed the post if it bothers you that much.


I was more curious than anything else, it didn't bother me.

Also, technically I think Mexico city is larger.


----------



## mariomike

This news ( yesterday ) for North America's fourth largest city ( that includes Mexico City ) caught my eye.









						Toronto police a notable exception as city, TTC announce staff vaccine mandates
					

Several Ontario police forces say they’re waiting on guidance from the province on the possibility of a general vaccine mandate for police officers, but there is nothing stopping any one service from acting.




					www.thestar.com
				




Personally, for vaccinated members, I doubt they would appreciate being cooped up in a car with an unvaccinated partner, who was not at least masked.
( Metro Police have had two-officer cars for fourty-five years. )

The reason I pay attention to what happens in America's largest city,



> Members who do not have official proof of COVID-19 vaccination on file with the Medical Division must wear a face covering at all times while working, whether indoors or outside, including while driving in Department vehicles.



is because what happens there often influences policy for the 37,600 employees of Canada's largest city.

It may also have a domino effect on GTA municipal employees.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> This news ( yesterday ) for North America's fourth largest city ( that includes Mexico City ) caught my eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto police a notable exception as city, TTC announce staff vaccine mandates
> 
> 
> Several Ontario police forces say they’re waiting on guidance from the province on the possibility of a general vaccine mandate for police officers, but there is nothing stopping any one service from acting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, for vaccinated members, I doubt they would appreciate being cooped up in a car with an unvaccinated partner, who was not at least masked.
> ( Metro Police have had two-officer cars for fourty-five years. )
> 
> The reason I pay attention to what happens in America's largest city,
> 
> 
> 
> is because what happens there often influences policy for the 37,600 employees of Canada's largest city.
> 
> It may also have a domino effect on GTA municipal employees.


Well played.


----------



## kratz

During our cross-country drive  over 15 days this month, our personal observations of COVID 19 protocols ect...

 We've passed through 7 / 10 provinces during our 9200 km travels. Traffuc on the highways is light. Hotels, rest stops and other common tourist areas are less than 50% of normal operation. Management / Owners are eager for rhe business, staff are tired. Training and customer service standards have dropped.

Large narional compnies encourage masks, but generally from East to West the publuc use of masks and other COVID safety measures declines to almost zero.  Nobody is batting an eye at travellers from out of province. No isolation / quaratine needed. Never asked if we are vacinated. 

Basically, those who chose to travel and drive this summer had a lighter, easier time than regular tourism years. We did note, pre-booking hiotels well in advance  is key. Every stop, fro t desk is heard saying "we are fully booked". So most of the ongoing COVID controls are now in the background.

Again. These are our observations from our trip.


----------



## daftandbarmy

kratz said:


> During our cross-country drive  over 15 days this month, our personal observations of COVID 19 protocols ect...
> 
> We've passed through 7 / 10 provinces during our 9200 km travels. Traffuc on the highways is light. Hotels, rest stops and other common tourist areas are less than 50% of normal operation. Management / Owners are eager for rhe business, staff are tired. Training and customer service standards have dropped.
> 
> Large narional compnies encourage masks, but generally from East to West the publuc use of masks and other COVID safety measures declines to almost zero.  Nobody is batting an eye at travellers from out of province. No isolation / quaratine needed. Never asked if we are vacinated.
> 
> Basically, those who chose to travel and drive this summer had a lighter, easier time than regular tourism years. We did note, pre-booking hiotels well in advance  is key. Every stop, fro t desk is heard saying "we are fully booked". So most of the ongoing COVID controls are now in the background.
> 
> Again. These are our observations from our trip.



Good report out! That matches my observations in what little travelling I've been able to do. FYI... southern Alberta doesn't give a flying f*ck about COVID so masks are not optional, they're vehemently anti-mask and they look at you like they're going to pull a six gun if you're wearing one.

E.g., Liberal candidate apologizes for calling early vaccine takers 'entitled' guinea pigs
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jessica-dale-walker-1.6147238

The hotels are mostly operating at between 50% and 80% capacity or so, apparently, due to lack of staff. They have beds, just no staff to service them.

"There’s a shortage of housekeeping staff across the industry, with many flocking to health care and seniors’ homes for more stable employment. And that means only 80% of the Hotel Grand Pacific’s 304 rooms will be available on weekends, and about 50% during the week."









						'Some just say I've had enough': Labour shortage holding back hospitality industry
					

Tourism’s great awakening is on — visitors are pouring in, and the streets and harbour are getting lively again. Fully vaccinated Americans start arriving on Monday by land and air — and likely within a month by ferries and yachts.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1428057133673631747
> Dear god.
> 
> Boosters forever?


Self linking iced cream cone.


----------



## brihard

Not surprising. We have annual flu shots that target a couple different strains based on our best guess of what’s coming. In the case of COVID we have a virulent pandemic with tens of millions of active cases at any given time. That’s a lot of selective pressures, a lot of different sets of mutations and opportunities for same to replicate… So yeah, while we’re in full pandemic mode, booster shots tailored to what we’ve learned about emerging strains are unsurprising. It’ll eventually simmer down and we’ll probably have COVID inoculation mixed in with our flu shots.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

FDA approves Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19









						FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine
					

FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.




					www.fda.gov
				




_Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty (koe-mir’-na-tee), for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals._


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Not surprising. We have annual flu shots that target a couple different strains based on our best guess of what’s coming. In the case of COVID we have a virulent pandemic with tens of millions of active cases at any given time. That’s a lot of selective pressures, a lot of different sets of mutations and opportunities for same to replicate… So yeah, while we’re in full pandemic mode, booster shots tailored to what we’ve learned about emerging strains are unsurprising. It’ll eventually simmer down and we’ll probably have COVID inoculation mixed in with our flu shots.


Spanish flu eventually burnt out, I hope this one does as well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

To clarify my previous post it's the EUA that has been extended, so it has not been fully approved yet. Approved for those above 16, EUA for 12 -16


			https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download?fbclid=IwAR0OoUraVD644sc-WIvhTTGYHym8zjasBbjGPHhRFwmCU7onCj-6LSP_4PM
		


_On August 23, 2021, having concluded that revising this EUA is appropriate to protect the public health or safety under section 564(g)(2) of the Act, FDA is reissuing the August 12, 2021 letter of authorization in its entirety with revisions incorporated to clarify that the EUA will remain in place for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for the previously-authorized indication and uses, and to authorize use of COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) under this EUA for certain uses that are not included in the approved BLA. In addition, the Fact Sheet for Healthcare Providers Administering Vaccine (Vaccination Providers) was revised to provide updates on expiration dating of the authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and to update language regarding warnings and precautions related to myocarditis and pericarditis. The Fact Sheet for Recipients and Caregivers was updated as the Vaccine Information Fact Sheet for Recipients and Caregivers, which comprises the Fact Sheet for the authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and information about the FDA-licensed vaccine, COMIRNATY (COVID19 Vaccine, mRNA)._


----------



## QV

Exclusive: Samples From Early Wuhan COVID Patients Had Genetically Modified Henipah, 1 of 2 Types of Viruses Sent From Canadian Lab
					

Samples from early Wuhan COVID-19 patients show the presence of genetically modified Henipah virus, an American scientist has ...




					www.theepochtimes.com


----------



## RangerRay

Even though I appreciate it’s Beijing critical stance, I wouldn’t trust the Epoch Times if it said the sky was blue.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Altair said:


> Spanish flu eventually burnt out, I hope this one does as well.


It won't. Many money to be made from a lot of entities including politicians. I kick myself for not having the slightest foreshadow to invest in pfizer or moderna. They are 10x in less than a year. Should've invested heavily. I'm still thinking I should invest with all the boosters that are going to be ordered worldwide every 8-12 months and making vaccines mandatory.

If cases would no longer be reported, this would end. Covid will spread and will be endemic, now with Delta spreading just as much in vaccinated vs unvaccinated but vaccines work and people won't die in droves as they try to make us to believe. But fear sells, and it sells really well. Cases are rising! Mandatory vaccines! You will lose your job! The sky will colapse! 

As Churchill said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste".


----------



## Pelorus

Messerschmitt said:


> If cases would no longer be reported, this would end.



And if we just stopped all diagnostic testing for heart disease, cancer, infectious diseases, strokes, diabetes, STIs, etc., just think of how much money we could save! Never need to build another piece of laboratory or imaging equipment ever again! People would just drop dead, the local undertaker would pick them up in the village square in a wheelbarrow, and we could all get on with our lives!


🙄


----------



## Brad Sallows

The discordant note is that people have learned to live their lives in spite of what habits mean with regard to risks of heart and lung disease, cancer, strokes, diabetes, STIs, etc...


----------



## FJAG

Pelorus said:


> And if we just stopped all diagnostic testing for heart disease, cancer, infectious diseases, strokes, diabetes, STIs, etc., just think of how much money we could save! Never need to build another piece of laboratory or imaging equipment ever again! People would just drop dead, the local undertaker would pick them up in the village square in a wheelbarrow, and we could all get on with our lives!
> 
> 
> 🙄


----------



## PMedMoe

Messerschmitt said:


> It won't. Many money to be made from a lot of entities including politicians. I kick myself for not having the slightest foreshadow to invest in pfizer or moderna. They are 10x in less than a year. Should've invested heavily. I'm still thinking I should invest with all the boosters that are going to be ordered worldwide every 8-12 months and making vaccines mandatory.
> 
> If cases would no longer be reported, this would end. Covid will spread and will be endemic, now with Delta spreading just as much in vaccinated vs unvaccinated but vaccines work and people won't die in droves as they try to make us to believe. But fear sells, and it sells really well. Cases are rising! Mandatory vaccines! You will lose your job! The sky will colapse!
> 
> As Churchill said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste".


Are you fucking serious???


----------



## FJAG

> Defence lawyer praises judge's decision to dismiss non-vaccinated jurors​





> The defence lawyer in an upcoming first-degree murder trial in Ottawa is applauding the judge's decision to only allow jurors who've said they've been fully vaccinated against COVID-19. ...





> ... "The defence wants intelligent people on the jury [that] understand complicated notions like the presumption of innocence, concepts like proof beyond a reasonable doubt," Harbic said.
> 
> "In my own [opinion] the great majority of people who are not getting their double vaccination do not trust science ... I think [they] lack a considerable amount of sophistication, and also lack a certain amount of social responsibility to other members of the community. So they're not the kind of jurors I would want on my jury anyway." ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-trial-jury-vaccinations-1.6157722

😉


----------



## daftandbarmy

The levels of ignorance makes one squirm...

Alberta feed stores inundated with calls for ivermectin over false claims livestock dewormer treats COVID​
Alberta feed stores say they're receiving a deluge of callers asking to buy ivermectin due to misinformation that suggests the livestock dewormer can be used to treat COVID-19 in humans.

Lance Olson, manager of Lone Star Tack & Feed Inc., located just outside of Calgary, said false claims circulating about the animal medication have brought the wrong kind of attention to his business.

"It's obviously not intended for human use in any way shape or form. It's meant to get rid of worms in horses' guts … so, these people see that ivermectin liquid, they search it, our website comes up and they give us a call thinking that we can just sell it to them," Olson said.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ivermectin-alberta-covid-1.6157200


----------



## QV

daftandbarmy said:


> The levels of ignorance makes one squirm...



It sure does. So does the absolute disingenuous assault on science in the name of one solution to a worldwide problem. 









						Israeli scientist says COVID-19 could be treated for under $1/day
					

Double-blind study shows ivermectin reduces disease’s duration and infectiousness • FDA and WHO caution against its use




					www.jpost.com
				









						Home - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Weekly Webinar          MyStory       Find a Provider     Find a Pharmacy            Weekly Webinar         MyStory       About THE FLCCC   Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance   The FLCCC Alliance was created by




					covid19criticalcare.com
				




I'd listen to these guys on treating these kinds of illnesses over the CBC: The FLCCC Physicians | FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


----------



## Remius

Not this again.


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> Not this again.


Yeah, you think there would be other websites touting this "miracle cure".


----------



## Harris

I'd listen to them if they at all sounded legit.  According to this site, not so much.  Opinion | Why can't Americans stop looking for false Covid cures in the feed store


----------



## kev994

This guy’s got it right. The Onion- Do your own research


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> Not this again.


You mean these "posers" 





						Our Physicians - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Founding Members    Physicians involved in founding FLCCC and developing protocols.        Clinical Advisors   Clinicians who help shape our approaches based on their unique experience and specialty.




					covid19criticalcare.com
				




or these White paper on Ivermectin as a potential therapy for COVID-19


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> You mean these "posers"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our Physicians - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
> 
> 
> Founding Members    Physicians involved in founding FLCCC and developing protocols.        Clinical Advisors   Clinicians who help shape our approaches based on their unique experience and specialty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19criticalcare.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or these White paper on Ivermectin as a potential therapy for COVID-19


Check the date on that white paper.  India did indeed adopt invermectin and promptly dropped it.  Those “posers” are clinicians using bad science.  Waste of bandwidth.  But Darwinism will soon come into play as people keep taking livestock medicine as result of people promoting this irresponsibly.


----------



## Quirky

People won’t take vaccines but will take horse pills because it’s safer. Clown world. It’s a shame these pills aren’t more lethal, we don’t need these people in society.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> People won’t take vaccines but will take horse pills because it’s safer. Clown world. It’s a shame these pills aren’t more lethal, we don’t need these people in society.



But they're keeping the pharmacists busy and making money.


----------



## RangerRay

daftandbarmy said:


> But they're keeping the pharmacists vet clinics busy and making money.


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> Check the date on that white paper.  India did indeed adopt invermectin and promptly dropped it.  Those “posers” are clinicians using bad science.  Waste of bandwidth.  But Darwinism will soon come into play as people keep taking livestock medicine as result of people promoting this irresponsibly.


Pushed to do so by the WHO, which I have zero trust in as an organisation, just look at how they handled the initial outbreak. There is enough evidence that Invermectin works to reduce Covid effects, there is less evidence that it works as an alternative to vaccines.


----------



## Remius

There is enough circumstantial and observational evidence to warrant maybe an actual controlled study.  Until that happens it isn’t anywhere near where you think it is.


----------



## ModlrMike

There have been a number of trials already conducted that show that while ivermectin can have antiviral action, the doses required are excessive. To quote from one:

"An important controversial point to consider in any rationale is the 5 µM required concentration to reach the anti-SARS-CoV-2 action of ivermectin observed in vitro,17 which is much higher than 0.28 µM, the maximum reported plasma concentration achieved in vivo with a dose of approximately 1700 µg/kg (about nine times the FDA-approved dosification)" [1].

I'm pretty sure that 9 times the recommended dose of anything isn't going to be good for you. However, a properly conducted, randomized control trial of sufficient size and robustness could be helpful.

[1] Misleading clinical evidence and systematic reviews on ivermectin for COVID-19


----------



## QV

Astounding how many of you folks keep saying that and ignore stuff like this:



			https://ivmmeta.com/
		


Meta analysis using the most serious outcome reported shows 72% [55‑82%] and 86% [75‑92%] improvement for early treatment and prophylaxis, with similar results after exclusion based sensitivity analysis and restriction to peer-reviewed studies or Randomized Controlled Trials.
•Statistically significant improvements are seen for mortality, hospitalization, recovery, cases, and viral clearance. 27 studies show statistically significant improvements in isolation. The probability that an ineffective treatment generated results as positive as the 63 studies is estimated to be 1 in 1 trillion.



_Studies__Prophylaxis__Early treatment__Late treatment__Patients__Authors_All studies63*86%* [75‑92%]*72%* [55‑82%]*40%* [24‑52%]26,422613Peer-reviewed44*86%* [73‑92%]*75%* [61‑84%]*43%* [21‑59%]17,082479Randomized Controlled Trials31*84%* [25‑96%]*61%* [46‑71%]*30%* [2‑50%]6,561359


But you see this and run with it: www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ivermectin-alberta-covid-1.6157200


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Check the date on that white paper.  India did indeed adopt invermectin and promptly dropped it.  Those “posers” are clinicians using bad science.  Waste of bandwidth.  But Darwinism will soon come into play as people keep taking livestock medicine as result of people promoting this irresponsibly.


You have to be trolling now. Have you looked at the curriculum vitae for those "clinicians using bad science" as you state? Here is one brief summary:
_Dr. Marik has written over 500 peer-reviewed journal articles, 80 book chapters and authored four critical care books. *He has been cited over 43,000 times in peer-reviewed publications and has an H-index of 77.* He has delivered over 350 lectures at international conferences and visiting professorships. He has received numerous teaching awards, including the National Teacher of the Year award by the American College of Physicians in 2017....*He is the 2nd most published critical care physician in the world ever, and is a world renowned expert in the management of sepsis *– his contributions to the understanding and management of the hemodynamic, fluid, nutritional, and supportive care practices in sepsis have transformed the care of patients throughout the world. He also led the Society of Critical Care Medicine task force on corticosteroids in sepsis. He has already co-authored 10 papers on many therapeutic aspects of COVID-19._

It's not just a couple of quacks that have been speaking out on the YouTubes, it's a number of the world's top experts. Here are a few more that have been ignored or sidelined on how this has all been handled:

*Dr. Martin Kulldorff*_, professor of medicine at Harvard University, a biostatistician, and epidemiologist with expertise in detecting and monitoring infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety evaluations._

*Dr. Sunetra Gupta*_, professor at Oxford University, an epidemiologist with expertise in immunology, vaccine development, and mathematical modeling of infectious diseases.

*Dr. Jay Bhattacharya*, professor at Stanford University Medical School, a physician, epidemiologist, health economist, and public health policy expert focusing on infectious diseases and vulnerable populations._

Are you all comfortable with ignoring that and rolling with the status quo? 
Has Dr. Tam and this government infused the necessary levels of confidence from the start on all of this? 
Of all the things this government has screwed up, is the COVID response the one thing they got exactly correct?
You know Ivermectin has been in human use for 40 years with an excellent safety profile but you roll with "horse pill!"? 

Those are rhetorical, I'm not looking for any of your answers. I'm just the contrarian pointing out other available data that exists beyond a CBC headline.


----------



## Remius

I’m not looking at CBC stuff btw.  But look, go ahead and use it.  Or not.  I honestly don’t care beyond the dangerous path that sort of opinion takes people.  I didn’t roll with horse pills or mention that someone else did but the morons in Alberta who think there is a cover up going to Randy’s feed and seed are rolling with the horse pill lol.

meanwhile I’ll stick with 80% vaccination rate we achieved here where I live based on real science and rational people.


----------



## Weinie

ModlrMike said:


> There have been a number of trials already conducted that show that while ivermectin can have antiviral action, the doses required are excessive. To quote from one:
> 
> "An important controversial point to consider in any rationale is the 5 µM required concentration to reach the anti-SARS-CoV-2 action of ivermectin observed in vitro,17 which is much higher than 0.28 µM, the maximum reported plasma concentration achieved in vivo with a dose of approximately 1700 µg/kg (about nine times the FDA-approved dosification)" [1].
> 
> *I'm pretty sure that 9 times the recommended dose of anything isn't going to be good for you.* However, a properly conducted, randomized control trial of sufficient size and robustness could be helpful.
> 
> [1] Misleading clinical evidence and systematic reviews on ivermectin for COVID-19


I've had 9 beers numerous times.


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:


> I've had 9 beers numerous times.


Bottles or King Cans?  The scientific method demands precision.


----------



## Weinie

dapaterson said:


> Bottles or King Cans?  The scientific method demands precision.


Pfft.Who drinks pitiful little bottles anymore


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> I’m not looking at CBC stuff btw.  But look, go ahead and use it.  Or not.  I honestly don’t care beyond the dangerous path that sort of opinion takes people.  I didn’t roll with horse pills or mention that someone else did but the morons in Alberta who think there is a cover up going to Randy’s feed and seed are rolling with the horse pill lol.
> 
> meanwhile I’ll stick with 80% vaccination rate we achieved here where I live based on real science and rational people.


Except that is not going to stop Covid, not even 95%. the numbers of people who are vaccinated and get Covid particularly the new variants is going to increase.


----------



## dapaterson

Weinie said:


> Pfft.Who drinks pitiful little bottles anymore


Science insists you do both, now.


----------



## cavalryman

dapaterson said:


> Science insists you do both, now.


To heck with science. I drink scotch out of a proper-sized glass, not swill pretending to be beer.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in BC:

B.C. is in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated,” said Dr. Bonnie Henry. “What we’re seeing is this has become a pandemic that is spreading rapidly amongst pockets of people who are unvaccinated.”

COVID-19 infections are 10 times higher among the unvaccinated, while hospitalization rates are 17 times higher, said Henry. Age-based models show that, for instance, a 50-year old person who is unvaccinated has a 12 times greater risk of getting infected with COVID-19, and a 34 times greater risk of ending up in hospital.









						Booster shots for long-term care, vaccine mandate for hospital staff on their way: Henry
					

Dr. Bonnie Henry signalled Tuesday that an expanded vaccine mandate for health-care workers is coming soon and booster shots for the elderly and immune-compromised will be offered in the coming weeks. Henry, B.C.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> Except that is not going to stop Covid, not even 95%. the numbers of people who are vaccinated and get Covid particularly the new variants is going to increase.


Oh for sure.  But the overwhelming number of people getting it ARE the unvaccinated, and if we get variants it will be because of the unvaccinated.   But my odds are far higher of not getting it by being vaccinated and being in a population with as many vaccinated people as possible.  Luckily I’m living in area where that number is one of the highest in the country.  

im willing to bet that when Ford is forced to lock down again he will strike a balance and the Vaccinated won’t be as locked down as the unvaccinated.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Interesting that they have to mandate the healthcare workers into getting vaccinated, wonder why that is?


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> Interesting that they have to mandate the healthcare workers into getting vaccinated, wonder why that is?


Probably a certain percentage are like any other denier/conspiracy type etc etc that you find in any population.   Probably some that are vaccine hesitant as well.  Health care workers includes a large swath of people from doctors to orderlies to diaper changers in nursing homes.


----------



## kev994

I don’t even know what to think of this. On one hand at least there’s some medical advice in the ruling. On the other hand, what happens if this goes poorly? Are they obliged to keep giving the medication even if there’s an adverse reaction?
Judge orders hospital to treat Ohio Covid patient with ivermectin


----------



## Remius

kev994 said:


> I don’t even know what to think of this. On one hand at least there’s some medical advice in the ruling. On the other hand, what happens if this goes poorly? Are they obliged to keep giving the medication even if there’s an adverse reaction?
> Judge orders hospital to treat Ohio Covid patient with ivermectin


The guy is at death’s door so I assume that experimental treatment is warranted.  The irony being that some people do not want the vaccine because they think it’s experimental but when they are on their last legs they have no issues with experimental treatments.


----------



## MilEME09

Colin Parkinson said:


> Interesting that they have to mandate the healthcare workers into getting vaccinated, wonder why that is?


How about the obvious answer of protecting our hospital system? Look how many doctors,  nurses, etc are infected or have died in the states or Europe. It causes the entire system to strain and slowly collapse.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> The guy is at death’s door so I assume that experimental treatment is warranted.  The irony being that some people do not want the vaccine because they think it’s experimental but when they are on their last legs they have no issues with experimental treatments.


Remius still having difficulty distinguishing between a new vaccine with no long term safety data from a Nobel Prize winning ivermectin that’s been around for 40 years but used off label.


----------



## MilEME09

QV said:


> Remius still having difficulty distinguishing between a new vaccine with no long term safety data from a Nobel Prize winning ivermectin that’s been around for 40 years but used off label.


No vaccine ever has long term studies until they have been used long term, that's how science works. Consider this for a second, the Covid 19 vaccines have become the medical drug with the largest data set in human medical history. Call it experimental all you want but the sheer volume of data available dwarfs every other vaccine ever created. Ivermectin is designed to kill parasites, human grade doses are controlled, and the major paper touting it as a treatment for covid had to be withdrawn for major inconsistencies, plagiarism, ethical concerns, among other problems.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

MilEME09 said:


> How about the obvious answer of protecting our hospital system? Look how many doctors,  nurses, etc are infected or have died in the states or Europe. It causes the entire system to strain and slowly collapse.


I was referring more to the fact that quite a number of doctors and nurses are reluctant to take these vaccines.


----------



## ModlrMike

Weinie said:


> I've had 9 beers numerous times.


That's not the same as 9 times the recommended dose.


----------



## dapaterson

ModlrMike said:


> That's not the same as 9 times the recommended dose.


Exactly.  Recommended is two, so for nine times you'd have to drink 18.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Yeeeeee hawwww....


Western provinces driving Canada's 4th COVID-19 wave as physicians warn cases 'out of control'​
In British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan, infection rates are high above the country's average and far beyond every province to the east, including Ontario, whose population is larger than all three westernmost provinces combined.

The rate of cases in the last seven days in B.C. was 93 per 100,000 people as of Aug. 30, federal data shows, with Alberta's rate at 159 and Saskatchewan's at 135 — with no province to the east hitting more than 43.

In terms of raw case growth, Alberta currently has the most new infections in the country, with more than 7,000 cases reported in one week.

The province is now in the early stages of postponing surgeries and transferring patients to help boost capacity, but it has yet to reinstate major public health measures or bring in a vaccine mandate to curb case growth as the fast-spreading delta variant surges across much of the country.

"Things are going very poorly. They're only going to get worse," said Dr. Ilan Schwartz, an infectious diseases clinician and researcher at the University of Alberta in Edmonton.

"And the time for intervention was yesterday — or realistically, weeks ago — and if nothing is done, it's only going to continue to spiral out of control."





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-western-provinces-covid-case-growth-1.6160025


----------



## Remius

MilEME09 said:


> No vaccine ever has long term studies until they have been used long term, that's how science works. Consider this for a second, the Covid 19 vaccines have become the medical drug with the largest data set in human medical history. Call it experimental all you want but the sheer volume of data available dwarfs every other vaccine ever created. Ivermectin is designed to kill parasites, human grade doses are controlled, and the major paper touting it as a treatment for covid had to be withdrawn for major inconsistencies, plagiarism, ethical concerns, among other problems.


Sums it up nicely.


----------



## Remius

In Ontario News.









						Ontario reveals vaccine passport system for restaurants, gyms and theatres. Here's what you need to know
					

Proof of COVID-19 vaccination will be required to access non-essential businesses in Ontario, including gyms, indoor restaurants, movie theatres and concert halls, under the province's new vaccine certification program starting Sept. 22.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Weinie

ModlrMike said:


> That's not the same as 9 times the recommended dose.


When I was screening for my first Bosnia tour, the doctor inquired how much alcohol I consumed on a daily basis. I said it varied depending on the day, event, activity, access etc etc. His recommendation to me: For a whole variety of health and safety reasons, I recommend that you have, at most, one beer a day.

Sometimes I have exceeded the recommended dose.


dapaterson said:


> Exactly.  Recommended is two, so for nine times you'd have to drink 18.


Been there. Done that


----------



## Weinie

And for another side of the argument.

The Masked Ball of Cowardice


----------



## QV

That author said all the quite parts out loud.


----------



## Weinie

QV said:


> That author said all the quiet parts out loud.


FTFY.


----------



## MilEME09

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-covid-modelling-craig-jenne-1.6161654
		


Spiking pretty hard here in AB, 30+ new hospitalizations a day so far, almost 1/4 in ICU.


----------



## daftandbarmy

This was hard to believe. It's backfiring on them big time right now... good:


Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card​Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.

Kathy MacNeil, president and CEO of the Island Health, said some workers at health-care facilities were verbally abused as they came to and from work, and at least one staff member was physically assaulted.









						Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card
					

Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine-passport rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

daftandbarmy said:


> This kind of protest was hard to believe. It's backfiring on them big time right now... good:
> 
> Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card​Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.
> 
> Kathy MacNeil, president and CEO of the Island Health, said some workers at health-care facilities were verbally abused as they came to and from work, and at least one staff member was physically assaulted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card
> 
> 
> Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine-passport rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:


> This was hard to believe. It's backfiring on them big time right now... good:
> 
> Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card​


Wonder how many of these folks protesting hospitals usually back police - except when the cops are enforcing COVID-related measures?


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Bread Guy said:


> Wonder how many of these folks protesting hospitals usually back police - except when the cops are enforcing COVID-related measures?



I saw this posted on Twitter. One of the protestors sent Liza Yuzda a note. Draw your own conclusions....


----------



## Blackadder1916

> Why did any white male ever fight in a war for Canada just to be forced to be vaccinated, masked . . .



The vaccinating before the fighting . . . 






Showing off vaccination marks at Camp Hughes (Canadian military training camp in Manitoba), in August 1916. Image added to CGWP database by the Kenora Great War Project.

The masking during . . . 





_Canadian troops wearing gas masks carry a wounded soldier at the Battle of Amiens on the Western Front in 1918_

Why?  The same reason now as then - to try to stay healthy and alive.

Arsehole!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Life is never a simple yes/no equation


----------



## Colin Parkinson

My wife's legal read of this https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/do...UByOowFN4lMHvIAYzEtAGWJ7QN9Umz_8hNibVs2r527xU

Is basically the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine continues under the EUA. Their new version  COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) is now approved by the FDA in full.

However it's her feeling that the protection from liability only applies to the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine under the EUA and not to the new COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA). What will be interesting is if Pfizer-BioNTech continues to produce the vaccine under the EUA label to maintain that legal protection for themselves. Particularity as the vaccine becomes mandated.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife's legal read of this https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/do...UByOowFN4lMHvIAYzEtAGWJ7QN9Umz_8hNibVs2r527xU
> 
> Is basically the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine continues under the EUA. Their new version  COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) is now approved by the FDA in full.
> 
> However it's her feeling that the protection from liability only applies to the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine under the EUA and not to the new COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA). What will be interesting is if Pfizer-BioNTech continues to produce the vaccine under the EUA label to maintain that legal protection for themselves. Particularity as the vaccine becomes mandated.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> The levels of ignorance makes one squirm...
> 
> Alberta feed stores inundated with calls for ivermectin over false claims livestock dewormer treats COVID​
> Alberta feed stores say they're receiving a deluge of callers asking to buy ivermectin due to misinformation that suggests the livestock dewormer can be used to treat COVID-19 in humans.
> 
> Lance Olson, manager of Lone Star Tack & Feed Inc., located just outside of Calgary, said false claims circulating about the animal medication have brought the wrong kind of attention to his business.
> 
> "It's obviously not intended for human use in any way shape or form. It's meant to get rid of worms in horses' guts … so, these people see that ivermectin liquid, they search it, our website comes up and they give us a call thinking that we can just sell it to them," Olson said.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ivermectin-alberta-covid-1.6157200



I suspect that for most of them this is not the first time they’ve dabbled in eating paste…


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-covid-modelling-craig-jenne-1.6161654
> 
> 
> 
> Spiking pretty hard here in AB, 30+ new hospitalizations a day so far, almost 1/4 in ICU.



An organization I’m a part of expects me to spend two days in Calgary in early October for some important training. Not a friggin’ chance. If they want me trained up they can send me to the one running in Halifax instead.



daftandbarmy said:


> This was hard to believe. It's backfiring on them big time right now... good:
> 
> 
> Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card​Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.
> 
> Kathy MacNeil, president and CEO of the Island Health, said some workers at health-care facilities were verbally abused as they came to and from work, and at least one staff member was physically assaulted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Care workers abused at rallies against B.C.’s new vaccine card
> 
> 
> Health-care workers were abused and harassed at anti-vaccine-passport rallies outside B.C. hospitals on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com



I would happily gear up and clear paths for ambulances or patients coming in. Protest all you want, be loud and annoying, fine. Block ambulances? Not OK, ever, under any circumstances.


----------



## QV

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife's legal read of this https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/do...UByOowFN4lMHvIAYzEtAGWJ7QN9Umz_8hNibVs2r527xU
> 
> Is basically the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine continues under the EUA. Their new version  COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) is now approved by the FDA in full.
> 
> However it's her feeling that the protection from liability only applies to the PfizerBioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine under the EUA and not to the new COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA). What will be interesting is if Pfizer-BioNTech continues to produce the vaccine under the EUA label to maintain that legal protection for themselves. Particularity as the vaccine becomes mandated.


...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

brihard said:


> An organization I’m a part of expects me to spend two days in Calgary in early October for some important training. Not a friggin’ chance. If they want me trained up they can send me to the one running in Halifax instead.
> 
> 
> 
> I would happily gear up and clear paths for ambulances or patients coming in. Protest all you want, be loud and annoying, fine. Block ambulances? Not OK, ever, under any circumstances.


People feel they are being pushed into a corner and scapegoated, so why is anyone surprised they are pushing back? You don't have to agree with them, to realize this is a direct consequence of mandating the vaccines and limiting peoples movements and options.


----------



## Kilted

It's probably going to get a little bit worse before it gets better. I had someone get mad at me today because I was wearing a mask.


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> People feel they are being pushed into a corner and scapegoated, so why is anyone surprised they are pushing back? You don't have to agree with them, to realize this is a direct consequence of mandating the vaccines and limiting peoples movements and options.


As I said, go ahead and protest. But I’m willing to use reasonable force to clear routes into hospitals for ambulances should it come to that. 

The antivaxers aren’t being ‘scapegoated’. You aren’t a ‘scapegoat’ when the data shows that you’re literally the problem. They’re being held accountable for the choices they’re making freely. That’s not the same thing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin Parkinson said:


> People feel they are being pushed into a corner and scapegoated, so why is anyone surprised they are pushing back?


Why would the hospitals trying to help be a focus for pushing back, though?  Why are they pushing back at people who are trying to cure people who are sick, and not against the politicians who make the decisions? 

If media reports here, here and here are correct about ambulances being slowed down and/or blocked, well, that's a line crossed - do things, expect consequences.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Likely it's the only place that is obvious, but i agree it's a poor choice


----------



## Good2Golf

Colin Parkinson said:


> Likely it's the only place that is obvious, but i agree it's a poor choice


Well, it seems that some people aren’t able to figure out that the government’s direction came from….you know….the government…and not the health care workers.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Likely it's the only place that is obvious, but i agree it's a poor choice


Odd choice indeed.  If they're organized enough to do multiple simultaneous protests, someone in the collective knows there's federal and provincial political offices to be picketed in almost all the areas targeted.  Unless they believe (or want the public to believe) that Big Medical's part of the problem, too.  Who knows?


Good2Golf said:


> Well, it seems that some people aren’t able to figure out that the government’s direction came from….you know….the government…and not the health care workers.


Well, _some_ of them seem to know about _some_ government stuff ....


> ... Workers inside the hospitals said they could hear crowds chanting “lock her up” in reference to provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry ...





> ... Dr. Bonnie Henry on hearing crowds chant ‘lock her up’ at anti-vaccine passport rally ...





> ... Demonstrators could be heard chanting “lock her up” in relation to provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

The Bread Guy said:


> Why would the hospitals trying to help be a focus for pushing back, though?  Why are they pushing back at people who are trying to cure people who are sick, and not against the politicians who make the decisions?


In a douche bag way it's the perfect strategy. At one point the population will stop being pissed off at the protestors and turn their anger towards the government for not fixing the situation.

I'd imagine it's like protesting at the Parliament. What's that going to do? Give the MPs OT opportunities or have them just sit at home and get paid? Making life hell for average citizens gets more results IMO.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> In a douche bag way it's the perfect strategy. At one point the population will stop being pissed off at the protestors and turn their anger towards the government for not fixing the situation.
> 
> I'd imagine it's like protesting at the Parliament. What's that going to do? Give the MPs OT opportunities or have them just sit at home and get paid? Making life hell for average citizens gets more results IMO.


Protests at Parliament are so common that they practically never get noticed. I pretty frequently see various protest groups (anti mask/vax are common lately) talking about getting people in from across Canada for a 'freedom rally' up to Parliament Hill that will 'wake everyone up'... Then they clog up Elgin for a bit, a few Ottawa Police guys and girls on bikes tag along, they yell into cheap megaphones on the hill for an hour while the bored Parliamentary Protective Service guys look on, then they leave and take to twitter whining about how the media didn't cover their protest. Often as not they weren't even the only protest on the hill that day.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The last round of protests in the Vancouver area involved blocking major intersections.  Protesting on the lawn beside city hall just doesn't get any attention, apparently.  So obstruction and inconvenience inflicted on others is the order of the day.  And it's all tolerated by the powers that be.  All sorts of reasons were advanced by spokespeople of various public agencies why the protestors couldn't be rousted, despite partial interference with traffic bound for VGH and the assorted clinics and other facilities in the vicinity.

I would prefer obstructions to be cleared promptly, but that's not the principle others have chosen for us.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Well the tactic certainly worked for the left and others. We have had street blocked here all the time.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Classy. This guy better hope he doesn't get brought in with COVID when she's on duty....


Protester spat at Nanaimo nurse outside hospital, RCMP say​
A nurse heading to work was spat at during a protest Wednesday, Nanaimo RCMP say.

The woman told police the man was participating in an anti-vaccine-card rally outside Nanaimo Regional General Hospital, Const. Gary O’Brien said.









						Protester spat at Nanaimo nurse outside hospital, RCMP say
					

A nurse heading to work was spat at during a protest Wednesday, Nanaimo RCMP say. The woman told police the man was participating in an anti-vaccine-card rally outside Nanaimo Regional General Hospital, Const. Gary O’Brien said.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> In a douche bag way it's the perfect strategy. At one point the population will stop being pissed off at the protestors and turn their anger towards the government for not fixing the situation.


Until everyone gets the message & hates government, though, just like others who obstruct/deny access services/venues in protest, they shouldn't complain about people getting pissed off at_ them._

And wait'll just one person gets held up sick in an ambulance and gets worse or dies.


daftandbarmy said:


> Protester spat at Nanaimo nurse outside hospital, RCMP say


Hmmm, if only there was a provincial or federal politician's office in Nanaimo to protest at ...

Seems to be an interesting recurring theme here about the medical professionals being part of the problem.

Everyone is scared of _something _- loosing their freedom, getting sick, "papers please", losing their job, seeing a loved one die.  Pick your fear. 

When the lockdowns were on hard, a lot of people who would agree with at least some of these protesters were telling others who were scared, "hey, let me live my life normally, and if you're scared/a coward, just lock yourself up & let me be free." Now that the protesters appear to be scared, how would they feel about memes coming at them saying the same thing?

Maybe things would get less crazy if everyone remembered that we're all afraid of something, and that maybe consider that when thinking about the other side?  Then again, the way politics is played these days, I'm being naive.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Why cant people just live and let live ?

Don't want the vaccine ?  Don't take it.  Want the vaccine ?  Here, have some.

Both are actions with reactions. 

But protesting medical workers... Spitting on them.  That's offside, back 10.

Too many people trying to inflict their positions and opinions on others these days.


----------



## kev994

Halifax Tar said:


> Why cant people just live and let live ?
> 
> Don't want the vaccine ?  Don't take it.  Want the vaccine ?  Here, have some.
> 
> Both are actions with reactions.
> 
> But protesting medical workers... Spitting on them.  That's offside, back 10.
> 
> Too many people trying to inflict their positions and opinions on others these days.


Some people are legitimately unable to get vaccinated; anyone under 12, anyone whose had an allergic reaction to an mRNA, anyone with certain heart conditions likely to be aggravated by the vaccine. We’ve decided that we can’t fault them and that they should be able to participate in society. However, the foot stomping ‘don’t want to’, freedom crowd who would rather take horse pills because all the world’s governments are participating in a huge scheme to control people by making them wear masks, they’re putting the first group at risk and that group has no choice.


----------



## tomydoom

kev994 said:


> Some people are legitimately unable to get vaccinated; anyone under 12, anyone whose had an allergic reaction to an mRNA, anyone with certain heart conditions likely to be aggravated by the vaccine. We’ve decided that we can’t fault them and that they should be able to participate in society. However, the foot stomping ‘don’t want to’, freedom crowd who would rather take horse pills because all the world’s governments are participating in a huge scheme to control people by making them wear masks, they’re putting the first group at risk and that group has no choice.


Thanks Kev, that summarises my feelings exactly.


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> Why cant people just live and let live ?
> 
> Don't want the vaccine ?  Don't take it.  Want the vaccine ?  Here, have some.


Judging by the previous article with people protesting, it’s clear that we need to seriously consider cutting off healthcare to those who choose not to get vaccinated and move on with society. It’s only going to get worse with people losing their minds. Healthcare workers will eventually just strike and walk off the job province wide from burn out.

Don’t want the vaccine? Don’t get. However go seek healthcare outside the social treatment umbrella. We can’t risk the system collapsing over personal choices that these idiots make.


----------



## The Bread Guy

kev994 said:


> Some people are legitimately unable to get vaccinated; anyone under 12, anyone whose had an allergic reaction to an mRNA, anyone with certain heart conditions likely to be aggravated by the vaccine. We’ve decided that we can’t fault them and that they should be able to participate in society. However, the foot stomping ‘don’t want to’, freedom crowd who would rather take horse pills because all the world’s governments are participating in a huge scheme to control people by making them wear masks, they’re putting the first group at risk and that group has no choice.


And as with many groups of people, it only takes a few, loud, idiotic examples of the red to ruin it for the yellow


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:


> Judging by the previous article with people protesting, it’s clear that we need to seriously consider cutting off healthcare to those who choose not to get vaccinated and move on with society. It’s only going to get worse with people losing their minds. Healthcare workers will eventually just strike and walk off the job province wide from burn out.
> 
> Don’t want the vaccine? Don’t get. However go seek healthcare outside the social treatment umbrella. We can’t risk the system collapsing over personal choices that these idiots make.


We could go the Australian route, without federal tax benefits to those who don't, that withheld money gets diverted ti the health care system.


----------



## QV

Quirky said:


> Judging by the previous article with people protesting, it’s clear that we need to seriously consider cutting off healthcare to those who choose not to get vaccinated and move on with society. It’s only going to get worse with people losing their minds. Healthcare workers will eventually just strike and walk off the job province wide from burn out.
> 
> Don’t want the vaccine? Don’t get. However go seek healthcare outside the social treatment umbrella. We can’t risk the system collapsing over personal choices that these idiots make.


If I recall, the whole purpose of lockdowns was to protect the health system from collapse. In the last 18 months what has each province and the feds done to increase ICU capacity or other healthcare resources so that our precarious healthcare system isn't so vulnerable? The ICU capacity near me is only staffed to operate at 75% capacity, and it is presently at 80% capacity (with half of those COVID cases). We have always been and continue to be literally one bad car accident from the ICU being overwhelmed on any given day. Nothing has been done to fix this.


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> If I recall, the whole purpose of lockdowns was to protect the health system from collapse. In the last 18 months what has each province and the feds done to increase ICU capacity or other healthcare resources so that our precarious healthcare system isn't so vulnerable? The ICU capacity near me is only staffed to operate at 75% capacity, and it is presently at 80% capacity (with half of those COVID cases). We have always been and continue to be literally one bad car accident from the ICU being overwhelmed on any given day. Nothing has been done to fix this.


The feds and provinces have thrown a ton of resources at ICUs, with some resulting increases in capacity. The reality, however, is that beds and ventilators aren’t the choke point. Trained clinical specialists are- critical care doctors, critical care nurses, respiratory therapists… ICUs normally assign a single nurse per bed, dedicated. During COVID they’ve had to thin this out massively in some spots- an example I’ve seen cited is two nurses sharing five ICU beds. Obviously and inevitably this risks degrading care. They’re running as thin as they can get away with.

Critical care nurses aren’t infantry. You can’t produce one in a couple of months. Few are willingly entering into this specialization during the pandemic, and many are burning out. Then on top of that, some provincial governments - Ontario and Alberta in particular - are basically telling nurses to go fuck themselves with wage cuts (and yes, a below inflation salary adjustment is a cut). So they aren’t having the easiest time filling vacancies.

You know how at the peak of Afghanistan some CAF trades were desperately struggling for personnel, many burned out, many released? That seems to be the critical care medical professions right now.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Exactly right........like I've mentioned before, my GF's Sister is a hospital dietitian, and she's doing shifts in ICU just because there ain't enough people.  And money is NOT the problem.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:


> Judging by the previous article with people protesting, it’s clear that we need to seriously consider cutting off healthcare to those who choose not to get vaccinated and move on with society. It’s only going to get worse with people losing their minds. Healthcare workers will eventually just strike and walk off the job province wide from burn out.
> 
> Don’t want the vaccine? Don’t get. However go seek healthcare outside the social treatment umbrella. We can’t risk the system collapsing over personal choices that these idiots make.


You can't deny people medical care.  Jesus our medics have to preform aid on people who moments before were trying to kill them.  Trying to deny people medical care because they didn't take vaccine, that's a scary path to smokers not getting medical treatment to those playing contact sports not getting treatments.

You can, though, let private business decide who can an can't access their good and services though vaccination passports or cards.


----------



## kev994

QV said:


> If I recall, the whole purpose of lockdowns was to protect the health system from collapse. In the last 18 months what has each province and the feds done to increase ICU capacity or other healthcare resources so that our precarious healthcare system isn't so vulnerable? The ICU capacity near me is only staffed to operate at 75% capacity, and it is presently at 80% capacity (with half of those COVID cases). We have always been and continue to be literally one bad car accident from the ICU being overwhelmed on any given day. Nothing has been done to fix this.


My wife’s friend is an oncologist and she’s been working in the ICU for like a year to up the staffing there.


----------



## mariomike

kev994 said:


> My wife’s friend is an oncologist and she’s been working in the ICU for like a year to up the staffing there.


My ex is Director of Quality, Performance, Professional Practice and Chief Nursing Executive at a major downtown hospital. It's challenging times there, and from what I'm told, also where I used to work.



> We have always been and continue to be literally one bad car accident from the ICU being overwhelmed on any given day.


----------



## Remius

Alberta reinstates mask mandate and liquor curfew, implements financial incentive for unvaccinated amid surge in COVID-19 cases
					

Starting Saturday, masks will be required in indoor spaces and licensed establishments will need to end liquor sales at 10 p.m.




					edmontonjournal.com
				




Alberta pausing the full reopening and offering 100$ to get vaccinated.

meanwhile, Ontario introduces a vaccine passport and daily vaccination rates double










						Ontario COVID-19 vaccine appointments double after province announces passport program
					

Ontario officials say vaccine appointments have more than doubled in the last 24 hours after the province announced a certification program making it mandatory to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 in order to gain access to select non-essential services.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> Alberta reinstates mask mandate and liquor curfew, implements financial incentive for unvaccinated amid surge in COVID-19 cases
> 
> 
> Starting Saturday, masks will be required in indoor spaces and licensed establishments will need to end liquor sales at 10 p.m.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmontonjournal.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alberta pausing the full reopening and offering 100$ to get vaccinated.
> 
> meanwhile, Ontario introduces a vaccine passport and daily vaccination rates double
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario COVID-19 vaccine appointments double after province announces passport program
> 
> 
> Ontario officials say vaccine appointments have more than doubled in the last 24 hours after the province announced a certification program making it mandatory to be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 in order to gain access to select non-essential services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


And then just a couple days later, Ford prorogued the legislature, ostensibly due to the federal election. A chickenshit move, IMHO. We don’t need an absent legislature while in a time of crisis.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> meanwhile, Ontario introduces a vaccine passport and daily vaccination rates double


Yes the threat of not being able to travel anywhere and threat of losing your job if you don't get the vaccination seems to have changed a few minds.


----------



## Remius

I also imagine that there are certain percentage of procrastinators and otherwise apathetic people that now have a reason to go get the shot.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Alberta pausing the full reopening and offering 100$ to get vaccinated.


Decisions. Decisions.

Horse paste or 100 bucks?

What do you do when a few middle school kids refuse to wear masks?

You call the police. Sarcasm emoji in case it was not obvious. 





						6 students at Long Island middle school pulled out of classes for not wearing masks, police called | abc7ny.com
					

Suffolk County police were called to a middle school on Long Island Thursday after six students refused to wear masks on their first day of classes.




					abc7ny.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

First they said masks won't protect you, then it was the vaccine won't really protect you. Now they expect me to believe a vaccine passport will protect me? Don't want to wear a mask? Don't wear one. Don't  want to be vaccinated. Don't  get jabbed. Don't want a vaccine passport. Don't get one. Everybody has got a choice. Personally, I'm  not going for the passport. None of the places requiring it, hold a lot of attraction for me anyway. If I want a restaurant meal, I'll order it to my door. Any place that demands a passport of me loses my business. Sharing my medical and personal information with every Tom, Dick and Harriet is not my idea of privacy. If I was going to use one, I'd want to see the same from the cook making my meal, the bartender making my drink and the server bringing both to my table. If the owner won't take my word as being vaccinated, I don't  have to take his that his workers are OK. Trust is a two way street. Just more divisiveness from the trudeau liberals.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> First they said masks won't protect you, then it was the vaccine won't really protect you. Now they expect me to believe a vaccine passport will protect me? Don't want to wear a mask? Don't wear one. Don't  want to be vaccinated. Don't  get jabbed. Don't want a vaccine passport. Don't get one. Everybody has got a choice. Personally, I'm  not going for the passport. None of the places requiring it, hold a lot of attraction for me anyway. If I want a restaurant meal, I'll order it to my door. Any place that demands a passport of me loses my business. Sharing my medical and personal information with every Tom, Dick and Harriet is not my idea of privacy. If I was going to use one, I'd want to see the same from the cook making my meal, the bartender making my drink and the server bringing both to my table. If the owner won't take my word as being vaccinated, I don't  have to take his that his workers are OK. Trust is a two way street. Just more divisiveness from the trudeau liberals.


It’s being imposed by the Ford Conservatives for the things you’re describing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> It’s being imposed by the Ford Conservatives for the things you’re describing.


Yup - while saying the Trudeau Liberals _should've_ done it.


----------



## Remius

More details on who can actually be exempt.









						Ontario confirms there are only two valid medical exemptions from COVID-19 vaccines
					

With Ontario set to roll out its vaccine passport program later this month, many are asking what exactly constitutes a medical exemption. These are the two reasons for a medical exemption.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## QV

ICMR Includes Ivermectin for COVID-19 Indication in National List of Essential Medicines
					

The Indian government recently slashed the price of 39 important drugs covering a range of therapeutic drugs from cancer to COVID-19 as part of the revised Indian National List of Essential Medicines (NLEM). TrialSite reports among the commonly used drugs prominently on the list are ivermectin...



					trialsitenews.com
				



Indian Council of Medical Research and the Indian government include ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19.






						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com
				



Rolling Stones ivermectin hit piece debunked by the hospital.









						Joe Rogan says he tested positive for COVID-19, took unproven ivermectin
					

Public health agencies don't recommend the drug for treating COVID-19.




					www.cnet.com
				



Joe Rogan, unvaccinated, contracted COVID-19. Took therapeutics including ivermectin and fully recovered in 3 days.


----------



## lenaitch

QV said:


> ICMR Includes Ivermectin for COVID-19 Indication in National List of Essential Medicines
> 
> 
> The Indian government recently slashed the price of 39 important drugs covering a range of therapeutic drugs from cancer to COVID-19 as part of the revised Indian National List of Essential Medicines (NLEM). TrialSite reports among the commonly used drugs prominently on the list are ivermectin...
> 
> 
> 
> trialsitenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Council of Medical Research and the Indian government include ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zerohedge
> 
> 
> ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zerohedge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rolling Stones ivermectin hit piece debunked by the hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan says he tested positive for COVID-19, took unproven ivermectin
> 
> 
> Public health agencies don't recommend the drug for treating COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan, unvaccinated, contracted COVID-19. Took therapeutics including ivermectin and fully recovered in 3 days.



Whoever Joe Rogan is.   Although the title seems to focus on Ivermectin as his savior, he says he also took:

" . . . monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pac, prednisone, everything . . ."

He must have quite a medicine cabinet.  Monoclonal antibodies have emergency approval from the US from the FDA for treating Covid-19.  My sister-in-law is on Prednizone - that stuff messes up your system.

I kinda lean to not getting Covid in the first place.


----------



## PuckChaser

Hes also in his early 50s. He had a 90+% chance of not needing even a doctors visit. He just covered all his bases.


----------



## Remius

lenaitch said:


> Whoever Joe Rogan is.   Although the title seems to focus on Ivermectin as his savior, he says he also took:
> 
> " . . . monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pac, prednisone, everything . . ."
> 
> He must have quite a medicine cabinet.  Monoclonal antibodies have emergency approval from the US from the FDA for treating Covid-19.  My sister-in-law is on Prednizone - that stuff messes up your system.
> 
> I kinda lean to not getting Covid in the first place.


Joe Rogan is an anti vaxxer.  Like Jenny Mcarthy and other celebrities that the uninformed take as gospel.  Because “reasons”.   Apparently people who need invermectin for what it was actually intended are having a hard time due to shortages.  Lovely.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> Hes also in his early 50s. He had a 90+% chance of not needing even a doctors visit. He just covered all his bases.


He’s also in above average shape


----------



## GR66

QV said:


> Joe Rogan, unvaccinated, contracted COVID-19. Took therapeutics including ivermectin and fully recovered in 3 days.


GR66, unvaccinated, contracted COVID-19.  Took nothing.  Self isolated for two weeks and worked from home without missing an hour of work throughout.  Both singular examples are equally useless in determining the effectiveness of Ivermectin in treating COVID-19


----------



## QV

lenaitch said:


> Whoever Joe Rogan is.   Although the title seems to focus on Ivermectin as his savior, he says he also took:
> 
> " . . . monoclonal antibodies, ivermectin, Z-pac, prednisone, everything . . ."
> 
> He must have quite a medicine cabinet.  Monoclonal antibodies have emergency approval from the US from the FDA for treating Covid-19.  My sister-in-law is on Prednizone - that stuff messes up your system.
> 
> I kinda lean to not getting Covid in the first place.


Joe Rogan is someone who can afford top medical attention.
But you guys can keep picking apart Joe and ignore India.  
As for your last comment, I like having more than one tool in the tool box and not betting it all on one horse.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Classy...


Welsh teen in hospital with Covid targeted online by anti-vaxxers​
A 17-year-old in hospital with coronavirus has said she has been targeted by anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists on social media after urging young people to have the vaccine.

Maisy Evans said she has been accused of being a “liar” and an “actress paid by the government” by online trolls.

The teenager has had symptoms including dizziness, shortness of breath, headaches, a loss of smell and taste, as well as suffering a Covid-related blood clot on her lung. She tested positive for the virus on 14 August, three days after having her first Pfizer jab.

However, doctors have insisted her illness and her blood clot are unrelated to the vaccine.

Evans, from Newport, south Wales, told Sky News: “I’ve had to deal with a lot of anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists which is deeply frustrating.

“I’ve been called a liar, an actress paid by the government to push certain agendas, Satan, a Nazi, evil, and so many more things.

“It’s totally uncalled for.”

Evans was admitted to hospital on 25 August and after undergoing numerous blood tests, X-rays and CT scans, a Covid-related blood clot was discovered on her right lung.

The former member of the Welsh youth parliament is being treated at the Grange university hospital in Cwmbran.









						Welsh teen in hospital with Covid targeted online by anti-vaxxers
					

17-year-old accused of being an “actress paid by the government” after urging young people to get vaccinated




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Joe Rogan is someone who can afford top medical attention.
> But you guys can keep picking apart Joe and ignore India.
> As for your last comment, I like having more than one tool in the tool box and not betting it all on one horse.


We ignored India because what you posted added absolutely nothing to your argument other than India lowering the price on a whole bunch of drugs.  River parasites are quite common in India.  So I can see why they included it as part of their review (something that happens periodically).  

As for betting on one horse, that comment has so much irony in it when we speak of invermectin…lol.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> As for betting on one horse, that comment has so much irony in it when we speak of invermectin…lol.


In a rare display of wit, I think that was deliberate on his part.


----------



## Weinie

Great, just great, another bat-borne virus.

Authorities racing to contain deadly Nipah virus outbreak in India


----------



## daftandbarmy

mapped​The US, India and Brazil have seen the highest number of confirmed cases, followed by the UK, Russia and France.
Very few places have been left untouched.



			https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> In a rare display of wit, I think that was deliberate on his part.


Full points for that.


----------



## QV

The great Ivermectin deworming hoax
					

Can You Spot the Fake?




					www.thedesertreview.com
				




Informational flooding is where the purveyor of the propaganda attempts to out-compete other accessible information to gain the consumers' attention. It is aptly described in this Harvard article titled, “Fear, Friction, and Flooding: Methods of Online Information Control.” https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12274299/Roberts_gsas.harvard_0084L_11469.pdf?sequence=1


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:


> mapped​The US, India and Brazil have seen the highest number of confirmed cases, followed by the UK, Russia and France.
> Very few places have been left untouched.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 66345


And right there is the problem with putting things in perspective. Cases are immaterial. The amount of hospital admissions and deaths should be the reason for lockdowns and other restrictions, not cases.


----------



## ModlrMike

Fishbone Jones said:


> The amount of hospital admissions and deaths should be the reason for lockdowns and other restrictions, not cases.


The best way to minimize the first is to maximize the second. You can't reduce admissions and deaths without reducing cases.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And, please correct me if I'm wrong, don't the varients  come from the virus mutating in infected people.   Less infections=less variants? ?


----------



## QV

New this month but will be ignored by all those we put our trust in to lead us through this.








						Ivermectin: a multifaceted drug of Nobel prize-honoured distinction with indicated efficacy against a new global scourge, COVID-19
					

In 2015, the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine, in its only award for treatments of infectious diseases since six decades prior, honoured the…




					www.sciencedirect.com
				



_Recently, Dr Satoshi Omura, the Nobel co-laureate for the discovery of IVM, and colleagues conducted a comprehensive review of IVM clinical activity against COVID-19, concluding that the preponderance of the evidence demonstrated major reductions in mortality and morbidity [2]. Our review of that evidence, updated with consideration of several new studies, supports the same conclusion.

We believe that the evidence to date supports the worldwide extension of IVM treatments for COVID-19, complementary to immunizations. The indicated biological mechanism of IVM, competitive binding with SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, is likely non-epitope specific, as reviewed [8], possibly yielding full efficacy against emerging viral mutant strains. IVM has been safely used in 3.7 billion doses since 1987, well tolerated even at much greater than standard doses [34,35] and used without serious AEs in the three high-dose COVID-19 treatment studies noted above [34,36,37]. In the current international emergency of COVID-19, with mutant viral strains, vaccination refusals and potentially waning immunities over months presenting new challenges, IVM can be an effective component of the mix of therapeutics deployed against this pandemic._


And we'll probably see more of this.








						Despite 95% vaccination rate, Cornell today has five times more COVID cases than it did this time last year | The College Fix
					

ANALYSIS: If the goal is to prevent infection, the 95 percent vaccination rate on Cornell’s campus has not accomplished that.




					www.thecollegefix.com
				



_Cornell University has aggressively pushed its students to get vaccinated, announcing a vaccine mandate for the 2021-22 academic year in April and frequently denying religious and medical exemptions.
As a result, 95 percent of the campus population, both students and faculty, is vaccinated.
Despite this, Cornell University has more than five times the amount of confirmed positive cases during its first week of this academic year than it did during its first week of the 2020-21 academic year, according to the Cornell COVID dashboard._


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> New this month but will be ignored by all those we put our trust in to lead us through this.


As opposed to those who put their trust in Joe Rogan?


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> As opposed to those who put their trust in Joe Rogan?


Take your argument up with:  A.D.Santin1D.E.Scheim2P.A.McCullough3M.Yagisawa4T.J.Borody5

Joe Rogan is just a high profile example.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Take your argument up with:  A.D.Santin1D.E.Scheim2P.A.McCullough3M.Yagisawa4T.J.Borody5
> 
> Joe Rogan is just a high profile example.


That people actually follow.  And buy the horse version.  This sort of stuff is getting dangerous.

Honest question.  Do you trust your doctor?


----------



## QV

I direct you to post #5463, many ivm hit pieces are being debunked. Outright lies by some media, to what end?

Your question is a loaded question. Trust is earned and tested everyday, it isn't an ongoing right for anyone. For example, by virtue of her office I trusted Dr. Teresa Tam at the start of this pandemic. Then she said and did things that lost that trust. The same goes for politicians, supervisors, relatives etc. So your question is worthless and only meant to distract from the information I raised.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> I direct you to post #5463, many ivm hit pieces are being debunked. Outright lies by some media, to what end?
> 
> Your question is a loaded question. Trust is earned and tested everyday, it isn't an ongoing right for anyone. For example, by virtue of her office I trusted Dr. Teresa Tam at the start of this pandemic. Then she said and did things that lost that trust. The same goes for politicians, supervisors, relatives etc. So your question is worthless and only meant to distract from the information I raised.


It’s not loaded.  It’s a simple question.  Do you trust your doctor?

do you believe that the current vaccines work?

do you think that Invermectin is effective at preventing Covid or treating Covid?

your answers help me to understand the context behind why you are posting this stuff.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> It’s not loaded.  It’s a simple question.  Do you trust your doctor? Yes, mostly.
> 
> do you believe that the current vaccines work? Places like Isreal, Gibralter, and now Canada among others, demonstrate we shouldn't rely on vaccines alone. We have more infections now with 70%+ vaccinated than we did with 0% vaccinated.
> 
> do you think that Invermectin is effective at preventing Covid or treating Covid? I've posted countless links to all the studies that support ivm in treating COVID-19. In a worldwide pandemic that has cost countless lives and trillions of dollars in economic damage, I can't think of any good reason to exclude this low cost treatment option that is more safe than aspirin.
> 
> your answers help me to understand the context behind why you are posting this stuff.



Sure, I'll bite.


----------



## Remius

Ok good.  That is likely the person you should be seeking advice on Invermectin.  

right.  But we aren’t just relying on vaccines alone.  We actually have three approved treatment drugs.  Drugs that went through the appropriate methodology to get approved.   So no, we aren’t just relying on the Vaccine.  It’s a combo of measures.  Including masking, distancing, hand washing etc etc.  

and there are way more studies and links that say the evidence that Invermectin has yet to be proven to be effective and requires more robust studies and clinical trials using actual methodology.  Not anecdotal or observational studies.  I have yet to see anything that says “NO” outright.  Only that more study is required.

the issue is that anti vaxxers are pushing this treatment to the detriment of those who actually need the drug for its intended purpose (there is a shortage due to hoarding) and even more strangely normal people buying the livestock version to self treat becaus of what they read on the internet to confirm their own beliefs.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Ok good.  That is likely the person you should be seeking advice on Invermectin.
> 
> right.  But we aren’t just relying on vaccines alone.  We actually have three approved treatment drugs.  Drugs that went through the appropriate methodology to get approved.   So no, we aren’t just relying on the Vaccine.  It’s a combo of measures.  Including masking, distancing, hand washing etc etc.
> 
> and there are way more studies and links that say the evidence that Invermectin has yet to be proven to be effective and requires more robust studies and clinical trials using actual methodology.  Not anecdotal or observational studies.  I have yet to see anything that says “NO” outright.  Only that more study is required.
> 
> the issue is that anti vaxxers are pushing this treatment to the detriment of those who actually need the drug for its intended purpose (there is a shortage due to hoarding) and even more strangely normal people buying the livestock version to self treat becaus of what they read on the internet to confirm their own beliefs.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You can't reduce admissions and deaths without reducing cases.



Sure you can.  Apply controls (including self-discipline) which reduce cases among those over 50 while allowing more cases among those under 50.


----------



## Remius

Nope.  But nice try QV.


----------



## dapaterson

A recent study on ivermectin suggests it my not be quite what men are looking for...









						Ivermectin infertility story correction: FDA rejects 2011 Nigeria study
					

A national story regarding Ivermectin and a study regarding its effect on men’s reproductive health that KTSM published, has been removed from our website.




					www.wfla.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> A recent study on ivermectin suggests it my not be quite what men are looking for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin infertility story correction: FDA rejects 2011 Nigeria study
> 
> 
> A national story regarding Ivermectin and a study regarding its effect on men’s reproductive health that KTSM published, has been removed from our website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wfla.com



A self-correcting system then?


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:


> A self-correcting system then?


Or possibly a Nobel Prize Winning alternative to vasectomies.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:


> A recent study on ivermectin suggests it my not be quite what men are looking for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin infertility story correction: FDA rejects 2011 Nigeria study
> 
> 
> A national story regarding Ivermectin and a study regarding its effect on men’s reproductive health that KTSM published, has been removed from our website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wfla.com



Spurious claims based on spurious science exist at both ends of the spectrum.









						Does Ivermectin Cause Sterility in Men?
					

One study purportedly found that 85% of men who were given the anti-parasitic were sterile following the research period.




					www.snopes.com
				





> A study published in 2011 and widely circulated in September 2021 found that 85% of men treated with ivermectin for a tropical disease known as river blindness were found to be sterile.
> 
> Rating    Unproven​About this rating
> 
> Context
> The study in question was not published in a credible journal, nor was it hosted by an accredited, reputable institution. In the decade since the study’s supposed 2011 publication, there has been little — if any — related research to confirm its findings. Furthermore, a spokesperson for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration told Snopes that infertility in men is not a known side effect of ivermectin and, as such, is not included in U.S. labeling requirements.
> 
> more at link


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:


> A recent study on ivermectin suggests it my not be quite what men are looking for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin infertility story correction: FDA rejects 2011 Nigeria study
> 
> 
> A national story regarding Ivermectin and a study regarding its effect on men’s reproductive health that KTSM published, has been removed from our website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wfla.com


Will it also take care of those pesky STI's?  Asking for a friend......


----------



## Blackadder1916

What the bill will look like.  Tip not included.






						COVID-19 hospital stays cost 3 times more than a stay for heart attack | CIHI
					

This media release explores the estimated costs of COVID-19 hospital stays and hospital spending.




					www.cihi.ca
				





> COVID-19 hospital stays cost 3 times more than a stay for heart attack​*September 9, 2021 — *
> The estimated average cost of a hospital stay for COVID-19 is more than $23,000. This includes both intensive care unit (ICU) and non-ICU admissions. New data from the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) shows that a COVID-19 hospital stay costs about 3 times more than for heart attack ($7,000) or pneumonia ($8,000), 4 times more than the cost of a stay for influenza (approximately $5,000) and almost as much as a kidney transplant ($27,000).
> 
> People who have COVID-19 remain in the hospital about twice as long as the average pneumonia patient (15 days and 7 days, respectively), and a larger proportion of them are admitted to the ICU and ventilated.
> Estimated costs for COVID-19 hospital stays​The estimated total cost of COVID-19 hospital stays in Canada (excluding Quebec) was almost $1 billion in 2020–2021, tripling between November 2020 and March 2021.
> 
> A COVID-19–related hospitalization with ICU admission is estimated to cost over $50,000 — more than 3 times the cost of a stay without ICU admission ($15,000). By comparison, the average cost of an ICU admission for pneumonia is $22,000 and for heart attack is $8,400.
> 
> More detailed information about COVID-19 hospitalizations and emergency department visits is also available.


----------



## dapaterson

Blackadder1916 said:


> Spurious claims based on spurious science exist at both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Ivermectin Cause Sterility in Men?
> 
> 
> One study purportedly found that 85% of men who were given the anti-parasitic were sterile following the research period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com


Thanks for the fact check.


----------



## QV

Blackadder1916 said:


> Spurious claims based on spurious science exist at both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Ivermectin Cause Sterility in Men?
> 
> 
> One study purportedly found that 85% of men who were given the anti-parasitic were sterile following the research period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com



If by spurious science you mean 45 peer-reviewed studies and 31 randomized controlled trials, sure I guess.



			https://ivmmeta.com/


----------



## ModlrMike

Taken from my prescribing reference:

MILD TO MODERATE TOXICITY: rash, urticaria, pruritus, edema, headache, dizziness, somnolence asthenia (weakness and fatigue), nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea and tachycardia

SEVERE TOXICITY: seizures, coma, aspiration pneumonia, metabolic acidosis, respiratory failure and hypotension


----------



## Blackadder1916

ModlrMike said:


> Taken from my prescribing reference:
> 
> MILD TO MODERATE TOXICITY: rash, urticaria, pruritus, edema, headache, dizziness, somnolence asthenia (weakness and fatigue), nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea and tachycardia
> 
> SEVERE TOXICITY: seizures, coma, aspiration pneumonia, metabolic acidosis, respiratory failure and hypotension



Sounds like a weekend in Vegas. . . . in my younger days


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile....


Alberta's rising COVID-19 cases due to faulty modelling and government inaction, experts say​​'People are going to die and it is really tragic — but it is also infuriating'​
Charles Rusnell  · CBC News  · Posted: Sep 09, 2021 7:00 AM MT | Last Updated: 5 hours ago

Dr. Deena Hinshaw, Alberta's chief medical officer of health, is seen leaving the podium after a June 29 news conference. Hinshaw's next media availability, almost one month later, was the announcement that testing, contract tracing and mandatory isolation would be scaled back. (Chris Schwarz/Government of Alberta)


Alberta's plan to lift all pandemic restrictions and precautions appears to have been based on a scenario rooted more in wishful optimism and political expediency than obvious scientific evidence, say experts in infectious diseases and pandemic modelling.

But they say the problem was compounded as Premier Jason Kenney and Dr. Deena Hinshaw, the chief medical officer of health, failed to reimpose measures despite the steady rise of COVID-19 infections and hospitalizations through the summer.

"At this point in the pandemic, there is no excuse for this sort of negligence at the government level," said Dr. Ilan Schwartz, an associate professor of infectious diseases at the University of Alberta.

"The bottom line is that people are going to die and it is really tragic — but it is also infuriating, because this was all entirely preventable."

In late May, Kenney promised the "best summer ever" for Albertans as he announced the government's three-part plan to be the first and most open province in Canada, with no restrictions by July 1. 

Then in late July, Hinshaw announced the province would end testing, contact tracing and mandatory isolation, a move that alarmed doctors and infectious disease experts across the country. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-covid-19-modelling-1.6168948


----------



## Brad Sallows

So it turns out all the models are poor.  Film at 11.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> So it turns out all the models are poor.  Film at 11.


Alberta’s was.  They modelled using the alpha variant to fit their narrative.  Doctors and experts lamented it and were dismissed.  Gross incompetence on their part.  “Best summer ever”


----------



## Remius

'Move to endemic was too early': Hinshaw acknowledges Alberta jumped the gun relaxing COVID-19 response
					

The doctor leading Alberta through the pandemic has admitted she began treating COVID-19 as endemic prematurely.




					edmonton.ctvnews.ca
				




Well at least she acknowledged her mistake.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> “Best summer ever”


Some summer in the future, hopefully.

I wonder how Canadians will celebrate.

Will it be anything like when half-a-million attended a rock concert to celebrate the end of SARS?


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Will it be anything like when half-a-million attended a rock concert to celebrate the end of SARS?


What idiots did that?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> 'Move to endemic was too early': Hinshaw acknowledges Alberta jumped the gun relaxing COVID-19 response
> 
> 
> The doctor leading Alberta through the pandemic has admitted she began treating COVID-19 as endemic prematurely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmonton.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well at least she acknowledged her mistake.



Only after scathing outrage, like:


Absence of Alberta's premier, chief medical officer during COVID spike sparks public criticism​Premier Jason Kenney and Dr. Deena Hinshaw haven't spoken publicly in weeks​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/kenney-hinshaw-covid-absence-1.6156491


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> What idiots did that?


Was a big fundraising event Avery SARS near Toronto.  Rolling Stones headlined, AC DC stole the show.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> Was a big fundraising event Avery SARS near Toronto.  Rolling Stones headlined, AC DC stole the show.


Not sure why anyone would think that's a good idea. I guess with a death toll of 44 people it may not have seemed like too much of a threat.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Rolling Stones headlined, AC DC stole the show.


They pelted Justin Timberlake with bottles of urine.


> The one-day event continues to hold the record for the largest ticketed outdoor event in Canadian history.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Not sure why anyone would think that's a good idea. I guess with a death toll of 44 people it may not have seemed like too much of a threat.











						Molson Canadian Rocks for Toronto - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Absence of Alberta's premier, chief medical officer during COVID spike sparks public criticism​Premier Jason Kenney and Dr. Deena Hinshaw haven't spoken publicly in weeks​



We need leadership noises to tell people to get vaccinated! People are so dependent on government now it's disgusting.


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:


> We need leadership noises to tell people to get vaccinated! People are so dependent on government now it's disgusting.


I find my self on the angry crowd these days asking what the heck is our government doing when over 200 people have gone to the OCU in two weeks. At this point any restrictions will be too late.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Get the jab or get the boot. Some health workers are not happy, predictably and unbelievably:

B.C. health minister defends mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for health-care workers​

More than 90 per cent of physicians in the province have been fully vaccinated, according to Henry, while the Hospital Employees’ Union says more than 90 per cent of its members have been vaccinated.

Dix was repeatedly pressed on concerns the province or regions within the province would face labour shortages if health-care workers choose not to get vaccinated by the October deadlines.

“We don’t want to lose anybody,” he said. “But the reality of it is … [immunization] is essential in these times.”

Dix added “it’s not going to be easy, but we’ll be ready” without offering further details on the province’s plans to ensure it was not facing a shortage of health-care workers in the event people choose not to get vaccinated by the October deadlines.









						B.C. health minister defends mandatory COVID-19 vaccines for health-care workers
					

B.C.’s health minister is defending a provincial order requiring all health-care workers to be vaccinated against COVID-19 by the end of next month amid surging cases brought on by the Delta variant.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> I find my self on the angry crowd these days asking what the heck is our government doing when over 200 people have gone to the OCU in two weeks. At this point any restrictions will be too late.


Too late for sure. The die is cast. Within a couple weeks, Alberta’s likely gonna have to load ICU patients on air ambulances and hope BC has room to take them. Saskatchewan sure doesn’t. Alberta’s already transferring ICU patients within the province like Ontario was.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/red-deer-hospital-transfers-icu-covid-1.6176605


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Too late for sure. The die is cast. Within a couple weeks, Alberta’s likely gonna have to load ICU patients on air ambulances and hope BC has room to take them. Saskatchewan sure doesn’t. Alberta’s already transferring ICU patients within the province like Ontario was.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/red-deer-hospital-transfers-icu-covid-1.6176605



BC should be putting up one of these signs on their eastern border soon....


----------



## brihard

Alberta presser is now on. Bashing this out in real time:

Kenney:

I was wrong
Government has declared a public health emergency
Current trends are exceeding the worst case model of two weeks ago. Staffed ICU beds will run out soon.
Thousands of surgeries cancelled.
This is a crisis of the unvaccinated. 90% of ICU patients are unvaccinated.
-Unvaccinated (missed age range- 18-35? 40?) are now 50-60x more likely to land in ICU than vaccinated.

New restrictions:

Continued mandatory masking and distancing in indoor public places
Indoor gatherings for those vaccinated limited to ten people from two households
Individuals living alone allowed up to tw vaccinated close contacts

No private indoor social gatherings for those unvaccinated (not professional services)
Outdoor public gatherings limited to 200
Places of worship limited to 1/3 capacity and mandatory masking
In person faith group meetings can continue with masks and distancing
Mandatory masking students grade 4 and up, and staff. Class cohosting is back.
Youth sports limited to 1/3 spectators
Mandatory work from home order unless physical presence required for operational requirements. Masks mandatory at workplace except when alone in cubicle or office, includes visitors, delivery etc.

September 20th adds:

Indoor weddings and funerals capped at lesser of 50 people or half of fire code capacity
Outdoor same limited to 200
Liquor sales end at 2200, and consumption ends at 2300.
All indoor restaurant/bar dining closed
Max six at outdoor tables, no moving between tables.
New business measures. Large venues (conferences concerts etc) restricted to 1/3 fire code with masks and distancing
Retail, museums, libraries, theatres bingo halls, fitness, recreation, sports, yoga, martial arts, pools etc limited to 1/3 capacity.
No group fitness, team practices etc
Exercise indoors is basically one on one only
Casinos 1/3 fire code, 2200/2300 purchase/consume liquor
Heath professionals remain open in person

September 20th:

Restrictions exemption program: Proof of immunization or proof of negative test in previous 72 hours will allow some services etc with no restriction except masking. (I think stuff like indoor dining and entertainment?)
Businesses can choose to participate in restrictions exemption or not. (My note: It basically incentivizes vaccination and competitive business compliance.)
QR code system coming.

Dr. Hinshaw:

We’re in a crisis.
Vaccines are key to protecting the healthcare system
This wave is already worse than the PDT three
Healthcare capacity has been increased but it’s not enough
Hospitals cannot sustain care for all Albertans with the COVID rates seen.
Delta is extremely infectious.
Some fully vaxed are still sick and dying
Third boosters coming for the high risk
She made decisions with the best information she had and regrets a move to endemic transition as soon as they did. She updated her recommendations based on this.
New restrictions are province wide. No regionality. Cases are high everywhere. Hospitalization rates in rural areas are ~3x Edmonton or Calgary
No single sector is driving this. It’s close contacts. No choice but to impact areas where close contacts happen.
The choice to be immunized saves lives.
Mandatory isolation with symptoms or close contact saves lives.
Dr Yu (AHS)

at 156% normal ICU capacity.
270 all in in ICU yesterday
Reaching out to other provinces for ICU space and frontline staff who can come to Alberta
Continuing to add crit care capacity
Educating clinical teams on triage protocol
29% growth in COVID ICU cases in the past 7 days
Triage = more ICU cases than capacity. If activated, provincial in scope and applicable everywhere. Not yet implemented; last resort.


I think that’s the bulk of it. What nobody said is that Alberta became the bad lesson everyone else is learning from. Alberta played chicken with Delta and lost. And now we wait and see what the political fallout and sundry stupidity will entail.


----------



## Blackadder1916

brihard said:


> Dr Yu (AHS)
> 
> Triage = more ICU cases than capacity. If activated, provincial in scope and applicable everywhere. Not yet implemented; last resort.



For those interested -  Alberta protocol for Critical Care Triage during Pandemic or Disaster


			https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/about/scn/ahs-scn-cc-critical-care-triage-framework.pdf
		


edited to add - for those who won't wade through the 52 pages of the above document

FAQs  https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/about/scn/ahs-scn-cc-critical-care-triage-faq.pdf
Executive Summary   https://www.albertahealthservices.c...cc-critical-care-triage-executive-summary.pdf


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> No private indoor social gatherings for those unvaccinated (not professional services)



Good luck enforcing that.


----------



## Infanteer

brihard said:


> I think that’s the bulk of it. What nobody said is that Alberta became the bad lesson everyone else is learning from. Alberta played chicken with Delta and lost.


Pretty much - compare the epidemiological curve for Alberta, where the West Ed Mall was a free for all, to Ontario, which had yet to open barbers.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Good luck enforcing that.


It’ll probably be enforced incidental to other things like noise complaints, disturbances, fights, etc. It becomes a tool in the toolbox.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Got my Emergency Alert on my cell phone about it.....come on Saturday.


----------



## lenaitch

Saw this on another forum.  Interesting approach.  Apparently the development of many vaccines and medications have their origins in cell lines that date back to a single fetus in 1973 (in The Netherlands, by a Canadian researcher).  The 'provenance' of that fetus is apparently unknown:

Hospital staff must swear off Tylenol, Tums to get religious vaccine exemption

Explanation of the 'cell lines':









						How fetal cells from the 1970s power medical innovation today
					

It is no secret that thousands of laboratories around the world use cells derived from a fetus that was aborted decades ago to develop vital medicines.




					medicalxpress.com


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/covid-alberta-deena-hinshaw-verna-yiu-1.6178262
		


Awesome.  Send them to ontario…what an avoidable mess.


----------



## MilEME09

It's will be over a week before we see any downward trends, if any, by then our ICU will be at 100% of surve capacity. Hundreds will be dead by then, and that's if it isn't too late, if these new measures have no effect, or a delayed one  it will only get worse.

Related note trying to access my health records on AHS's site is a nightmare, I'm #200,604 in line to go onto the website, estimated time I'll get to access them, 3:42am. How can a vaccine passport work if the site yo get them is down or soo backlogged it takes 8 hours to just get on the site.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/covid-alberta-deena-hinshaw-verna-yiu-1.6178262
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome.  Send them to ontario…what an avoidable mess.



Completely avoidable if people got their shots, but Alberta is in the running with Florida for levels of stupidity.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Sorry 'Berta... we're full up:


B.C. says it can't take patients from Alberta's overwhelmed ICUs​
B.C. says it won't be able to take any of Alberta's extra intensive care unit patients at a time when that province's hospitals are buckling under the weight of patients who are critically ill with COVID-19.

Dr. Verna Yiu, president and CEO of Alberta Health Services (AHS) said Wednesday it will ask other provinces if they can take ICU patients who need care, or spare staff that can work in intensive care units.

In a statement, B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said the ministry met with its Alberta counterparts Thursday. But B.C. can't take on Alberta patients now.

"Given the current demands on B.C.'s health-care system, we will not be able to assist with taking patients at this time," Dix said.

"However, we have told Alberta that if there are things we can do to support them, we will. And if we can take patients on in the future, we will.




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-alberta-covid-reaction-1.6179099


----------



## The Bread Guy

Comparing Alberta to the neighbours in terms of fully-vaccinated percentages (source), just to throw one more data point in there ...


----------



## Good2Golf

I saw in some reports that Ontario had offered to take ICU cases, but that seems less visible in the media now. Is the offer still valid?  I’m visiting in BC at the moment and there was no mention of Ontario’s offer here in BC’s local news.


----------



## Remius

Good2Golf said:


> I saw in some reports that Ontario had offered to take ICU cases, but that seems less visible in the media now. Is the offer still valid?  I’m visiting in BC at the moment and there was no mention of Ontario’s offer here in BC’s local news.








						CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca


----------



## Remius

Might get a few to rethink Wexit given no one out west can help.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> Might get a few to rethink Wexit given no one out west can help.


I suspect those inclined towards Wexit are not going to have a great deal of overlap with those who take the pandemic particularly seriously. I doubt this will change many minds.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remius said:


> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.citynews.ca


Might even be hearing a bit more on that around 1400E from Ontario's health minister.   Struck out because they're announcing something unrelated to COVID.

So, far, I've only seen B.C. say no room at the inn.

Another look @ the vaccination #s (source) ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Go 'Murrica!


----------



## Brad Sallows

Bad choices have consequences.

Could have refrained from politicizing early counter-measures, but failed to resist temptation to seek political advantage.

Could have refrained from politicizing vaccines, but failed to resist temptation to seek political advantage.

Could have stroked Trump's ego and manipulated him by giving credit for OWS and then letting him do the heavy lifting of persuading "his" followers that "his" vaccines were awesome.  But, Orange Man must get nothing.

Could have foregone the restaurants/vacation getaways/parties/galas after ordering the peons to mask up and stay home.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Send in the troops to bail out Alberta's hospitals... what would that even look like?


Premier Jason Kenney implored to seek military backup as Alberta health-care system crumbles​

With Alberta's health-care system "collapsing right in front of our eyes," the leaders of four unions representing thousands of health-care workers are calling on Premier Jason Kenney to ask for help from the military and Red Cross.

"There are no more nurses in our province who can be deployed. There are no more paramedics. There are no more respiratory therapists. There are no more support staff," states the Sept. 18 letter to Kenney, which implores him to make a formal request for help from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

"The tank is empty. The well is dry."

With Alberta's COVID-19 cases rapidly rising, Kenney must ask the federal government to "immediately deploy the military, the Red Cross and all available medical staffing resources from other provinces to assist our province's overwhelmed hospitals," states the letter.

It is signed by the presidents of four unions representing health-care workers — United Nurses of Alberta (UNA), Alberta Union of Provincial Employees (AUPE), Health Sciences Association of Alberta (HSAA) and CUPE Alberta — as well by Gil McGowan, president of the Alberta Federation of Labour (AFL).




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/kenney-military-alberta-health-care-1.6181646


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> There are no more paramedics.
> 
> It is signed by the presidents of four unions representing health-care workers — United Nurses of Alberta (UNA), Alberta Union of Provincial Employees (AUPE), Health Sciences Association of Alberta (HSAA) and CUPE Alberta — as well by Gil McGowan, president of the Alberta Federation of Labour (AFL).


Nothing new about that. 

According to the Health Sciences Association of Alberta (HSAA) in 2018,

Mar 20, 2018








						Paramedics union says EMS system at 'breaking point'
					

A union representing about 3,400 paramedics in Alberta says the province’s EMS system is at “breaking point.”




					calgaryherald.com
				






> “This problem didn't start last week or last year, it started when Alberta Health Services (AHS) took over EMS systems across this province and began reducing the number of ambulances over 10 years ago,” said Mike Parker, president of the Health Sciences Association of Alberta (HSAA).































daftandbarmy said:


> ​


----------



## Brad Sallows

Never let an opportunity to extract something political go past.


----------



## Blackadder1916

The next stage of the vaccination regimen may be a few weeks/months away.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/pfizer-biontech-covid19-us-vaccine-childen-1.6182150
		



> Pfizer-BioNTech say COVID-19 vaccine safe, protective in kids aged 5-11​CEO of Pfizer says company plans to submit results to regulators 'with urgency'
> 
> Thomson Reuters · Posted: Sep 20, 2021 7:43 AM ET | Last Updated: September 20
> 
> Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech said on Monday their COVID-19 vaccine induced a robust immune response in five- to 11-year-olds, and they plan to ask for authorization to use the vaccine in children in that age range in Canada, the United States, Europe and elsewhere as soon as possible.
> 
> The companies said the vaccine generated an immune response in the five- to 11-year-olds in their Phase II/III clinical trial that matched what they had previously observed in 16- to 25-year-olds. The safety profile was also generally comparable to the older age group, they said.
> 
> "Since July, pediatric cases of COVID-19 have risen by about 240 per cent in the U.S. — underscoring the public health need for vaccination," Pfizer chief executive Albert Bourla said in a news release.
> 
> "These trial results provide a strong foundation for seeking authorization of our vaccine for children five to 11 years old, and we plan to submit them to the FDA and other regulators with urgency."
> 
> Pfizer Canada spokesperson Christina Antoniou said in an email to CBC News that the company plans to file the data to Health Canada but couldn't provide specific timelines at this time.
> 
> "To date, we have been working closely with Health Canada and submitting to them new data regarding this vaccine when it becomes available," she said. "We share the urgency to provide the data that could help support the decision by regulatory authorities to make the vaccine available to school-aged children as early as possible."
> 
> Health Canada has already approved the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for people as young as 12 years old.
> 
> In a statement to CBC News, Health Canada said that all manufacturers of the COVID-19 vaccines authorized in Canada are conducting or planning studies in adolescents and younger children, including children from 6 months to 11 years of age.
> 
> It said it anticipates vaccine manufacturers will provide data regarding children in the coming months, but has so far not received any submission for the approval of any COVID-19 vaccine in children under 12 years of age.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brad Sallows said:


> Bad choices have consequences.
> 
> Could have refrained from politicizing early counter-measures, but failed to resist temptation to seek political advantage.
> 
> Could have refrained from politicizing vaccines, but failed to resist temptation to seek political advantage.
> 
> Could have stroked Trump's ego and manipulated him by giving credit for OWS and then letting him do the heavy lifting of persuading "his" followers that "his" vaccines were awesome.  But, Orange Man must get nothing.
> 
> Could have foregone the restaurants/vacation getaways/parties/galas after ordering the peons to mask up and stay home.


Could have forgone over a million illegal aliens infected with the delta variant, no vaccinations and no tracking while clandestinely flying and bussing them around the continental US to infect and reinfect areas that had a handle on covid. Almost like Native Americans and smallpox blankets. I could be cynical and think the longer the dems make this last, the more power they gain and the more rights the citizens lose. Nah, that's silly talk🙄


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:


> Never let an opportunity to extract something political go past.


Never let a crisis go to waste is another way of putting it.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Could have forgone over a million illegal aliens infected with the delta variant, no vaccinations and no tracking while clandestinely flying and bussing them around the continental US to infect and reinfect areas that had a handle on covid. Almost like Native Americans and smallpox blankets. I could be cynical and think the longer the dems make this last, the more power they gain and the more rights the citizens lose. Nah, that's silly talk🙄


Kinda sounds like you’re alleging that the current US government, as a covert policy, deliberately stoked the spread of Covid using the mass transportation of illegal aliens. Surely I’m reading this wrong.


----------



## Infanteer

Fishbone Jones said:


> Nah, that's silly talk🙄


Yes, yes it is.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The immigration crisis is just something they created that is out of control.  That it militates COVID spread is just another headwind the bright people in charge created for themselves in their efforts to convince naysayers that the pandemic is a problem.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The sharks are circling....


Cabinet shuffle won't save Jason Kenney from COVID-19 crisis in Alberta, critics say​
Swapping Alberta's health minister out for a new face is unlikely to change the provincial government's approach to managing the COVID-19 pandemic, observers say.

Critics say Premier Jason Kenney's decision on Tuesday to move Calgary-Acadia MLA Tyler Shandro from health to labour and immigration minister, and Calgary-Varsity MLA Jason Copping into health, will do nothing to stem the surge of people with COVID-19, which is overwhelming the province's health-care system.

The premier has been driving the pandemic response, said Joel Mullan, vice-president of policy and governance for the United Conservative Party. He says his leader has failed spectacularly at the task and that Kenney should resign.

Although Kenney said Shandro resigned from the health portfolio, Mullan said the swap is the premier's attempt to deflect blame from himself.

"He was the captain of the ship. He was the one providing direction and supervision to Shandro over the pandemic, and ultimately at this point, anything that has gone wrong, the buck stops at the premier's office," he said.

Creating a false sense of hope that the pandemic was in the past and Kenney's about-face on introducing a vaccine passport system were his two most unforgivable moves, Mullan said.

Some UCP constituency associations are considering passing motions asking for an expedited party leadership review. A formal review isn't scheduled until the fall of 2022, which some believe isn't enough time to prepare for an election in the spring of 2023, should Kenney be replaced.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-kenney-cabinet-shuffle-covid-1.6184977


----------



## RangerRay

Wow. He really shit the bed if the NDP is leading the polls AND the right vote isn’t seriously split.


----------



## Blackadder1916

RangerRay said:


> Wow. He really shit the bed if the NDP is leading the polls AND the right vote isn’t seriously split.



He did shit the bed AND the right vote is split . . . between those UCP'ers who think he did a bad job managing the pandemic response and waiting too long to institute measures like a vaccine passport (oops, sorry, Restrictions Exemptions Program) and those UCP'ers who think he did a bad job managing the pandemic response *because* he re-imposed restrictions and instituted a vaccine passport when he had categorically stated that Alberta wouldn't have a vaccine passport.


----------



## RangerRay

So where are the non-UCP righties putting their support now?  I couldn’t find that information. What little I did showed minimal support for other parties.


----------



## brihard

RangerRay said:


> So where are the non-UCP righties putting their support now?  I couldn’t find that information. What little I did showed minimal support for other parties.


Until and unless there’s an election, does it really matter anyway?


----------



## dapaterson

They'll implode into two parties; split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle, merge, fight internally again, implode into two parties, split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle...


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:


> They'll implode into two parties; split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle, merge, fight internally again, implode into two parties, split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle...


As is tradition


----------



## dapaterson




----------



## Remius

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440812858304991236
Darwin awards for these guys. I mean…I…I got nothing.


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> They'll implode into two parties; split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle, merge, fight internally again, implode into two parties, split the vote, let the NDP come up the middle...



So, in other words, about as easy to follow as this Income Splitting map?












						CTV News | Politics in Canada | Justin Trudeau
					

CTV News is your source for breaking news, analysis, and opinion on politics in Canada, the Trudeau government, Jagmeet Singh, Pierre Poilievre and more.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## RangerRay

brihard said:


> Until and unless there’s an election, does it really matter anyway?


Just curious where the split was in the recent polling, that’s all. 

My original thinking was the NDP winning in Alberta was a black swan event, fixed by a single right-of-centre party. Historically in Alberta, the ND’s (as Albertans refer to them) was a small fringe party behind the perennial also-ran Liberals. They have more staying power than I thought.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

RangerRay said:


> Just curious where the split was in the recent polling, that’s all.
> 
> My original thinking was the NDP winning in Alberta was a black swan event, fixed by a single right-of-centre party. Historically in Alberta, the ND’s (as Albertans refer to them) was a small fringe party behind the perennial also-ran Liberals. They have more staying power than I thought.


A lot of that has to do with Rachel Notley. Her father was well respected (even by political opponents) and she is well respected, herself.


----------



## The Bread Guy

QV said:


> ... This is hardly a sweeping declaration "India decided to stop using it".


I'm OK with "India's not recommending it for use", then.


----------



## QV

The Bread Guy said:


> I'm OK with "India's not recommending it for use", then.


Well that's strange considering what many already know. Nothing to see here.






						Ivermectin reduces viral load
					

As of Sept. 16, Uttar Pradesh was leading India in its use of ivermectin for COVID-19 — and was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of the drug. The state is practically COVID-19-free.




					www.washingtontimes.com
				




_As of Sept. 16, Uttar Pradesh was leading India in its use of ivermectin for COVID-19 — and was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of the drug. The state is practically COVID-19-free._









						India's Ivermectin Blackout - Part III: The Lesson of Kerala
					

The Ivermectin Effect




					www.thedesertreview.com
				




_The New York Times reported India’s colossal drop in COVID cases was unexplainable, while the BBC declared that Kerala’s rise was also a mystery. While new cases of COVID in Uttar Pradesh are rare as million-dollar lottery tickets, in Kerala, a tiny state located in southern India, new daily cases are the same as the United States, nearly one case per thousand. Yet, as we have seen in this series, there has been a curious media blackout on India’s overall success against COVID._









						Ivermectin Wins in India
					

Ivermectin Wins in India. By Justus Hope. News of India’s defeat of the Delta variant should be common knowledge. It is just about as obvious as the nose on one’s face. It is so clear w…




					wentworthreport.com
				



_News of India’s defeat of the Delta variant should be common knowledge. It is just about as obvious as the nose on one’s face. It is so clear when one looks at the graphs that no one can deny it.

There is a blackout on any conversation about how Ivermectin beat COVID-19 in India.

When I discussed the dire straits that India found itself in early this year with 414,000 cases per day, and over 4,000 deaths per day, and how that evaporated within five weeks of the addition of Ivermectin, I am often asked, “But why is there no mention of that in the news?”_


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

All written by the same guy....well, the Post one is  anonymous but reads the same.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All written by the same guy....well, the Post one is  anonymous but reads the same.


Well, is it true or not is the question. And I'm not sure who to believe about anything.


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> All written by the same guy....well, the Post one is  anonymous but reads the same.


He's probably just trying to sell his books.


----------



## Remius

‘100 per cent’ of Alberta’s new COVID-19 ICU admissions have no vaccine protection: Hinshaw  | Globalnews.ca
					

On Thursday, federal Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair confirmed the Liberals would help Alberta in any way necessary to respond to the fourth wave.




					globalnews.ca
				




Only one group of people to blame for this.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> ‘100 per cent’ of Alberta’s new COVID-19 ICU admissions have no vaccine protection: Hinshaw  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> On Thursday, federal Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair confirmed the Liberals would help Alberta in any way necessary to respond to the fourth wave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only one group of people to blame for this.



Are they in Edson by any chance?

'Irresponsible and dangerous': Hinshaw offers stern warning about COVID-19 parties​

Alberta Health is investigating whether an Edson party advertising itself as a “get COVID” event to build up natural immunity to the virus actually happened.

CTV News was unable to confirm a report that multiple Edson residents were sent to ICU after deliberately trying to infect themselves with COVID-19 at a party.

“I don’t know anything about this party other than what I’ve heard and seen in the news,” Dr. Everett Zdrill said.

Zdrill is one of two doctors in the town of Edson who intubates COVID patients at Edson Healthcare Centre. Severe cases are usually transferred to Edmonton ICUs.

Zdrill shared how when cases were lower, he would transfer one patient per month.

“Last week, I transferred four patients in four days,” Zdrill said.

One of those transfers was a man in his 20s. All four were unvaccinated, Zdrill said.

Alberta Health Services says in the last eight days, six people have been transferred to Edmonton ICUs from Edson – two directly from the emergency department.

It’s not known how the six contracted the virus.

Kevin Zahara, mayor of Edson, said in a tweet that the city was not aware of any such party occurring.

On Thursday, Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Deena Hinshaw couldn’t confirm whether such party ever took place, but had stern words for anyone considering holding such gatherings where the goal is to get COVID-19.

“I cannot confirm that these reports are accurate,” she said. “Whether or not this specific report is verified, what is important to know is that anyone contemplating this kind of activity should know that this consequence, severe illness and transmitting to others who may become severely ill or even die is an absolutely likely outcome.

“Hosting or attending an event like this in the current time of crisis is irresponsible and dangerous,” Hinshaw said.











						'Irresponsible and dangerous': Hinshaw offers stern warning about COVID-19 parties
					

Alberta Health is investigating whether an Edson party advertising itself as a “get COVID” event to build up natural immunity to the virus actually happened.




					edmonton.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Quirky

Stop giving the same level of care to unvaccinated and this nonsense will end.


----------



## QV

CDC’s Rochelle Walensky Overrules Her Own Agency | National Review
					

The Biden team doesn’t always ‘follow the science.’




					www.nationalreview.com
				




Little bit of infighting on whether boosters are needed.


----------



## The Bread Guy

WTF?????


> Police are looking for a man in Canada they say punched a nurse in the face multiple times, knocking her to the ground after she administered a Covid-19 vaccine to his wife without his permission ....


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Quirky said:


> Stop giving the same level of care to unvaccinated and this nonsense will end.




*Hippocrates has entered the chat....*


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The Bread Guy said:


> WTF?????


Interesting description of the suspect. I would assume an immigrant at first, but not sure based on the description:
_The suspect is described as, 30 to 45-year-old-man, 6-feet tall, medium build with darker skin, short brown hair, thick eyebrows, two small ear piercings on each ear and a tattoo on his hand that appeared to be in the shape of a cross, Carrier said._


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Interesting description of the suspect
> _The suspect is described as, 30 to 45-year-old-man, 6-feet tall, medium build with darker skin, short brown hair, thick eyebrows, two small ear piercings on each ear and a tattoo on his hand that appeared to be in the shape of a cross, Carrier said._


It do take all kinds ....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Is this fake news? Doesn't seem to be much mention of it on main stream media.


Canada police officers firefighters have gathered for protest against mandatory COVID19 vaccinations​Sep 13, 2021


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> Is this fake news? Doesn't seem to be much mention of it on main stream media.
> 
> 
> Canada police officers firefighters have gathered for protest against mandatory COVID19 vaccinations​Sep 13, 2021


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Jarnhamar said:


> Is this fake news? Doesn't seem to be much mention of it on main stream media.
> 
> 
> Canada police officers firefighters have gathered for protest against mandatory COVID19 vaccinations​Sep 13, 2021


I'm sure any large occupation can find a hundred or so morons if they wanted too......


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Is this fake news? Doesn't seem to be much mention of it on main stream media.


Was on Global on 13 Sept, as well as the _Toronto Star_, The Canadian Press - same day as less-than-silent protests in TO as well, and elsewhere. This from the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs shortly afterwards ...


> ... While the OAFC believes in the rights of individuals and groups to peacefully protest policies and laws they disagree with, the OAFC is adamant that the Fire Fighter and Police Memorials, places designed to honour those we’ve lost, those who gave their lives in service to others, are not appropriate venues to protest political beliefs ...


----------



## mariomike

"First Respondes for Freedom"? 

They don't represent any Department or union.

No way of knowing if they are even on the job.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> Stop giving the same level of care to unvaccinated and this nonsense will end.


Healthcare professionals are not policy makers.  I expect them to give everybody that comes through the door with the same level of care.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Right on, thanks. That wasn't coming up at all when I was searching.

It does put an interesting spin on the anti-vax = far-right loonie toon narrative.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Stop giving the same level of care to unvaccinated and this nonsense will end.



I wonder if their insurance rates will increase?








						Opinion | Don’t Want a Vaccine? Be Prepared to Pay More for Insurance. (Published 2021)
					

Health insurers could do more to encourage vaccination, including letting the unvaccinated foot their bills.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Or, death benefits decrease?








						MTA Yanks $500K COVID Death Benefit From Unvaccinated Transit Workers
					

This article was originally published on Sep 12 at 8:57pm EDT by THE CITY.   Struggling to get its workforce vaccinated, the MTA has pulled a $500,000 death benefit for any unvaccinated employees who succumb to COVID, THE CITY has learned. DAILY TOP BROOKLYN NEWS News for those who live, work...




					brooklyneagle.com


----------



## Quirky

lenaitch said:


> Healthcare professionals are not policy makers.  I expect them to give everybody that comes through the door with the same level of care.



That's utter nonsense that needs to change in policy and politics, not in hospitals. Covid isn't doing a good enough job killing off the idiots who don't vaccinate.


----------



## Brad Sallows

You're shit out of luck if that's what you're waiting for.  Most of the unvaccinated are (relatively) young and health and are going to survive their COVID and gain some immunity that way.


----------



## mariomike

> I expect them to give everybody that comes through the door with the same level of care.



I guess it's like in the Field. 

They should wear helmets. Wear seatbelts. Don't speed. 

But, they get Triaged same as those that do.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> Stop giving the same level of care to unvaccinated and this nonsense will end.


Don't forget people who smoke, drink, use drugs, drive motorcycles, ride a bicycle, and play hockey.


----------



## Weinie

Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget people who smoke, drink, use drugs, drive motorcycles, ride a bicycle, and play hockey.


I meet 4 out of those six criteria. Triage away.


----------



## Jarnhamar

U.K. Abandons Vaccine Passports Plans, Health Minister Says​








						U.K. Abandons Vaccine Passports Plans, Health Minister Says
					






					www.bloomberg.com
				





> The U.K. will abandon plans to call for proof of vaccination to enter certain venues, and may soon drop mandatory testing for returning travelers as part of a further easing of coronavirus restrictions to be announced this week, even as cases remain high.



Why is Congress exempt from the Biden COVID vaccine mandate?​








						Why is Congress exempt from the Biden COVID vaccine mandate? - Poynter
					

Plus, you can now get a flu and COVID shot at the same time, cases rise in the UK, the stigma of dying with COVID, and more.




					www.poynter.org
				





> President Joe Biden says all federal employees will have to be vaccinated and weekly tests are not an option to get out of taking the shot. But one big group of people who get paid out of the federal treasury won’t have to get vaccinated: Congress.


----------



## daftandbarmy

And you thought it would be the poliical divisions in the family that would ruin Thanksgiving 


Tensions high between vaccinated and unvaccinated in Canada, poll suggests


A new poll suggests tensions over COVID-19 vaccines in Canada are high as frictions grow between those who are vaccinated against the virus and those who are not.

The Leger survey, conducted for the Association of Canadian Studies, found that more than three in four respondents hold negative views of those who are not immunized.

Association president Jack Jedwab says the relationships between vaccinated and unvaccinated Canadians are also viewed negatively by two out of three survey participants.

The online poll surveyed 1,549 Canadians between September 10 and 12.

A margin of error cannot be assigned to online polls, as they are not considered truly random samples of the population.

The survey found vaccinated people consider the unvaccinated as irresponsible and selfish, a view contested by those who are not immunized.

Some members of the latter group have been staging demonstrations outside hospitals and schools in recent weeks to protest vaccine passports and other public health measures.

"There's a high level of I would say antipathy or animosity toward people who are unvaccinated at this time," Jedwab said. "What you are seeing is the tension played out among family members and friends, co-workers, where there are relationships between people who are vaccinated and unvaccinated."

The situation creates friction and it is persistent, he added.

The survey results, he noted, also suggest the tensions between vaccinated and unvaccinated Canadians are on par with some of the other social, racial and cultural issues that divide the population.

"My sense is a lot of negative sentiment people feel towards certain groups is getting displaced by their feeling of antipathy toward those people who are unvaccinated," he said.

Jedwab said the survey also found divisions among people who are not immunized, with about one in four unvaccinated respondents holding negative views towards others with the same inoculation status.

The survey findings suggest that unvaccinated people personally justify their reasons for not being immunized, but will reject others' decision to follow the same course, said Jedwab.

An earlier association poll suggested unvaccinated Canadians are more worried about getting the vaccine than contracting COVID-19, and most Canadians would refuse to allow unvaccinated adults into their homes.

Jedwab said he expected tensions between the vaccinated and unvaccinated to ratchet up even higher as governments and employers continue to push for more people to get their shots.

Tensions high between vaccinated and unvaccinated in Canada, poll suggests


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> , and most Canadians would refuse to allow unvaccinated adults into their homes.


My best friend's house is a three minute walk from mine. 

We worked together and have been friends for 40 years. 

He is my age and refuses to be vaccinated. 

It is heart-breaking.


----------



## QV

Brad Sallows said:


> You're shit out of luck if that's what you're waiting for.  Most of the unvaccinated are (relatively) young and health and are going to survive their COVID and gain some immunity that way.



The rate of survival for most people is slightly less than 100%.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> My best friend's house is a three minute walk from mine.
> 
> We worked together and have been friends for 40 years.
> 
> He is my age and refuses to be vaccinated.
> 
> It is heart-breaking.


It's a shame you'd let a personal medical decision make you feel that way about someone you knew for so long.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> It's a shame you'd let a personal medical decision make you feel that way about someone you knew for so long.


I go to his house.

My wife doesn't invite unvaccinated people in our house.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> I go to his house.
> 
> My wife doesn't invite unvaccinated people in our house.


Those filthy people. What will society eventually do with them?


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Those filthy people. What will society eventually do with them?


Nobody called anyone "filthy". 

I didn't make the world. I only live in it.


----------



## lenaitch

QV said:


> It's a shame you'd let a personal medical decision make you feel that way about someone you knew for so long.


Or, stated another way, it's a shame the friend made a personal medical decision that resulted in him being cut-off from his acquaintances.

Decisions have consequences.

We had an incident a few weeks ago at my father-in-law's 100th birthday celebration.  The facility's policy was that everyone entering the property had to be fully vaccinated.  One of the siblings brought along his 20-something unvaccinated (for reasons unstated) son.  Much family angst ensued (thankfully, I'm an in-law and avoid such dramatics).  Not only did the guest of honour have the array of vulnerabilities one would expect with a 100-year-old, there was a nursing mother, another in the late stages of a difficult pregnancy, and two others who were flying internationally the next day.  Not only was the missus pissed as she 'signed off' on the rules of engagement, then she had to coordinate a contact tracing list for approximately 25 people for the hospital.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> Those filthy people. What will society eventually do with them?



In the course of events, it's not society that eventually does something.  It's nature that will have its way with them; they will either evolve or die out. However, Mother Nature is too fucking slow.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I do love it when the thin veneer of compassion and liberalism washes away.


----------



## QV

I'm quite interested to see where this all goes. Because if you think it stops with COVID-19, think again.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Quirky said:


> That's utter nonsense that needs to change in policy and politics, not in hospitals. Covid isn't doing a good enough job killing off the idiots who don't vaccinate.


Ya know, maaaaaaaaaaaybe that's not the sort of statement reflecting how the overwhelming majority of everyone on all sides are afraid of _something_, and that talking more _towards_ each other (instead of against each other) might be more helpful.  That being said ...


Brad Sallows said:


> ... Most of the unvaccinated are (relatively) young and health and are going to survive their COVID and gain some immunity that way.


That may be true in general, but more than one thing can be true @ the same time.  For example, in Alberta's (the latest, hottest spot), it's also true that at one point four days ago, all the ICU beds blocking other medical care were full of unvaccinated (zero shots) people.


Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget people who smoke, drink, use drugs, drive motorcycles, ride a bicycle, and play hockey.


I disagree with withdrawing medical treatment from unvaccinated people (although I can't speak for insurance companies wanting to continue to make $), but when was the last time ICU's were jammed with these patients to the point others had to wait in line longer?  

Notwithstanding not believing _everything_ MSM has to say, I know nurses and bosses of nurses who have specifically 1) seen their ICU fill up to the point of having to send people out of town, and 2) seen their ICU get people from other cities/provinces because those places were filling up. Not happening where I live now, but it has, and I believe them - and those whose hip/knee replacements were postponed because of full ICUs.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Medical care is an expensive, high-demand service.  I'd expect to find that the people managing medical care do their best to use capacity to fullest extent, and to size capacity accordingly.  Therefore, I doubt ICUs are mostly empty most of the time.  Therefore, depending as always on local circumstances, some ICUs might customarily operate at high usage, so that only a few more patients have to be added to overreach capacity.

For example, Providence Health Care operates St Paul's and Mount St Joseph's hospitals in Vancouver, which apparently have 21 ICU beds between them.  So if customary ICU usage rates run at, say, 60% to 70%, it only takes a handful of cases to reach 100%.  Surely there are expedients to temporarily increase capacity to meet surges, but the essential lesson should be that only a very small fraction of (severe cases of) a high number of COVID cases could swamp ICUs.

Some of the COVID patients in ICUs are just unlucky; I'll hazard a guess that most are people with other problems who should not have played the odds.  But that applies to a long list of habits.  Meanwhile, I suppose we're semi-voluntarily running one of the other CoAs for dealing with a pandemic: lots of people acquire immunity by getting sick and recovering.


----------



## QV

The Bread Guy said:


> Ya know, maaaaaaaaaaaybe that's not the sort of statement reflecting how the overwhelming majority of everyone on all sides are afraid of _something_, and that talking more _towards_ each other (instead of against each other) might be more helpful.  That being said ...
> 
> That may be true in general, but more than one thing can be true @ the same time.  For example, in Alberta's (the latest, hottest spot), it's also true that at one point four days ago, all the ICU beds blocking other medical care were full of unvaccinated (zero shots) people.
> 
> I disagree with withdrawing medical treatment from unvaccinated people (although I can't speak for insurance companies wanting to continue to make $), but when was the last time ICU's were jammed with these patients to the point others had to wait in line longer?
> 
> Notwithstanding not believing _everything_ MSM has to say, I know nurses and bosses of nurses who have specifically 1) seen their ICU fill up to the point of having to send people out of town, and 2) seen their ICU get people from other cities/provinces because those places were filling up. Not happening where I live now, but it has, and I believe them - and those whose hip/knee replacements were postponed because of full ICUs.



That province has been running 100%+ ICU capacity off and on for years, even before the pandemic.  



There was even a study on strained ICU capacity from 2018. So the issues of ICU capacity has been a known for years. This isn't new. Yes covid complicates an already existing problem. But this problem isn't because of covid.









						Indicators of intensive care unit capacity strain: a systematic review - Critical Care
					

Background Strained intensive care unit (ICU) capacity represents a fundamental supply-demand mismatch in ICU resources. Strain is likely to be influenced by a range of factors; however, there has been no systematic evaluation of the spectrum of measures that may indicate strain on ICU capacity...




					ccforum.biomedcentral.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Stop talking about ICU beds.....that ship has long sailed into the ocean known as ICU staffing limits.  We can have five friggin million ICU beds, we just don't have staff to run them.


And dropping fast....


----------



## lenaitch

The way I understand it, the big problem with ICU capacity is not the physical space, nor even the equipment, but the trained staff. 

I think one of the inherent problems with publicly-funded health care is the reduced willingness to have surge capacity, be it IUC or otherwise.  It's probably a whole lot easier in a for-profit setting to have 100% immediate guaranteed access to an ICU, MRI, surgical suite, etc. so long as the bills are paid and the shareholders kept happy.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Stop talking about ICU beds.....that ship has long sailed into the ocean known as ICU staffing limits.  We can have five friggin million ICU beds, we just don't have staff to run them.
> 
> 
> And dropping fast....


Beds/capacity... The point is, this is a well known long standing issue that continues to go unsorted. 

I see some places are going to fire hospital staff over the vaccine, that should help. 🙄 These people have been employed for the last 18 months of the pandemic.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Blackadder1916 said:


> In the course of events, it's not society that eventually does something.  It's nature that will have its way with them; they will either evolve or die out. However, Mother Nature is too fucking slow.


Or you could, despite your best efforts and taking all necessary precautions, cross the street and get hit by a car and die.  

If only life were governed by absolutes, it would be so much simpler. 😉  

A friend of mine posted this to his social media the other day and I'm quoting it because I think some people need to hear it:



> So I have tried to not engage with social media in a while. Not because I don’t care about my friends more because I am just living my life and less Facebook is better for me. But today I saw a post from the Toronto Star condemning the unvaccinated and basically saying if they die fuck em. So here comes my rant bitches. I am not vaccinated. I will tell you why I am not….
> 
> It’s absolutely none of your or anyone else’s business why I am not vaccinated. Now before some of you get up on your pulpits and lecture me about my social responsibility like I have seen a few do, stop right there.
> 
> Quickly ask yourself when was the last time XXXXXX lectured you about your social responsibility to move off grid 100% solar, reduce your plastic waste and grow your own food? I will save you the time I haven’t.
> 
> Live your life how the fuck you want I don’t care. As far as the health care responsibility goes last time I checked I pay a fair bit of tax for health care so if I get covid I am entitled to treatment. Just like smokers, overweight people and alcoholics. So to the Toronto star our current government go XXXX yourself. Have a nice day everyone.


  Name is redacted but you get the drift.

I'm double vaccinated but I agree with the premise and I support my friend.  Too many holier than thou types walking around these days.  People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well if your friend gets sick, and his is the lung that cause the zebra variant , then it is our business.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well if your friend gets sick, and his is the lung that cause the zebra variant , then it is our business.


I'd be far more concerned with the Wuhan Institute of Virology than some unvaccinated dude.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> I'd be far more concerned with the Wuhan Institute of Virology than some unvaccinated dude.


Well it's not the one that escaped from there that's giving us grief right now....


----------



## Remius

i have no issue with people living the way they want to.  But society can dictate how people can participate in it.  I support anyone that chooses to remain unvaccinated.  I do not support their hurt feelings when they want to create a health and safety threat and are told to stay out of certain places.


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> I'd be far more concerned with the Wuhan Institute of Virology than some unvaccinated dude.


Don’t worry, QV.  PM Trudeau is “doing betterTM” to ensure that PLA Biowarfare Officers will be screened out of being paid as employees at the Canada’s National Microbiology Institute in Winnipeg, or at least ensuring they don’t get free health care while they’re spying on Canada’s NMI from inside…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well if your friend gets sick, and his is the lung that cause the zebra variant , then it is our business.



How many times have you been sick in your life?  How many times have you almost died or been seriously injured or maimed?

If I woke up every morning thinking and dwelling on all the terrible things that could happen to me on a day to day basis, or reminiscing all the bad things that have happened, I wouldn't even be able to get out of bed.

We have become a society gripped by fear and quite frankly, we, i.e. the West, are now weak and cowardly.  We are consumed by group think, anxiety and hypochondria.  

I think my friend should get vaccinated and that it would be a good idea for him to. However, I respect his decision not to and know he has his reasons. 

I also know that no Government Program that was ever created ever really goes away.  Income Tax was supposed to end following WWI, it's still here.  The Patriot Act is still around even though the War in Afghanistan is apparently over and the widespread abuses committed by the Government during that time have been widely documented.  



Remius said:


> i have no issue with people living the way they want to.  But society can dictate how people can participate in it.  I support anyone that chooses to remain unvaccinated.  I do not support their hurt feelings when they want to create a health and safety threat and are told to stay out of certain places.



I think that is a fair argument; however, there are those including some on these threads who have indicated they hope people who are unvaccinated die or they wish them ill.

That's completely unreasonable in so many ways and I think those people are cowards.  

Governments can and do make horrible mistakes all the time.  I am very hesitant to support anything that supports the curtailing of individual freedoms because it will often impact those most in need and usually results in unintended consequences.

The same Government(s) that brought you Residential Schools, Mefloquine and Agent Orange is bringing you Vaccination Cards.... think about that for a second!   

Democratic Governments are representative of the people, that quite often means they are also representative of the people's cognitive dissonance as well.

Be tolerant of others opinions, even if they differ from your own.


----------



## Remius

I don’t wish anyone dead.  But I have very little tolerance for those that want to test the limits of people’s patience by doing things like blocking hospital workers, force their way into places of business, punch nurses, urinate on a counter when asked to wear a mask etc etc etc.


----------



## KevinB

QV said:


> I'd be far more concerned with the Wuhan Institute of Virology than some unvaccinated dude.





Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well it's not the one that escaped from there that's giving us grief right now....


Well chicken versus egg there.

Neighbors dad just passed form COVID - was on respirator - doing better, removed - and tanked.
   The issue with ventilators appears that COIVD related issues seem to get a kick when on the Ventilator - and so while the vitals looks good, and in most other situations the patient could be safely removed from ventilator support, with this one crashed right after.

It seems due to the limits on the number of ventilators that patients are being removed before they should (for those with COVID complications) - but that could be observation bias on my behalf - as that is what has happened for all the people who I know who died from COVID - and from what I have read on the NYJ CV updates.

I just wish more conservatives would get vaccinated - down here it seems to be a 85% Vax rate for Demoncrats (spelling intended) - and 60% for Republicans - so statistically we will lose more Republicans from COVID as this point (though early mortality was heavy Dem areas).


----------



## Remius

Sad that it is so politicized down south.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget people who smoke, drink, use drugs, drive motorcycles, ride a bicycle, and play hockey.


They don’t clog ICUs, delay essential surgeries, increase wait times and force triage and you know it. These anti-vaxers don’t believe in modern medicines yet run to the hospitals when sick. Like they know what drugs are pumped into them that keep them alive after the fact. They are the stupidest breed of society.

Regardless of whatever perception of freedom you think you have, not getting vaccinated by choice is the true coward.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> , urinate on a counter when asked to wear a mask


Is that what they are doing now?!


----------



## Brad Sallows

They all consume resources, at the root of which is funding, and funding is fungible.  If preventable problems consumed less, there would be more to deal with non-preventable problems.

Cowards are prone to fear, and fear is what greases the skid down the long slope towards tyranny.

It's interesting how so many of the risks people learned to live with in the past are tolerable, and how so many new risks are intolerable.


----------



## The Bread Guy

QV said:


> There was even a study on strained ICU capacity from 2018. So the issues of ICU capacity has been a known for years. This isn't new. Yes covid complicates an already existing problem. But this problem isn't because of covid.


Didn't realize how much of an ongoing issue that was in AB - thanks for that.

Any tracking of how many ICU-ites are flown out per year?  If we take overfull as a constant, that figure might give a better view of how big a problem packed ICU spaces are.  

And yes, even if it's staffing, it's still relevant to look at beds filled at one end that keep other beds from being filled elsewhere down the line.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> Is that what they are doing now?!











						Dairy Queen customer urinates at counter after mask dispute on Vancouver Island
					

A disgruntled customer at a Dairy Queen in Port Alberni, B.C., took out his frustration over being told to wear a mask by relieving himself in front of staff at the counter.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Dairy Queen customer urinates at counter after mask dispute on Vancouver Island
> 
> 
> A disgruntled customer at a Dairy Queen in Port Alberni, B.C., took out his frustration over being told to wear a mask by relieving himself in front of staff at the counter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


Do not disrespect the DQ!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> They don’t clog ICUs, delay essential surgeries, increase wait times and force triage and you know it.


Yes you're right. Unless someone has a valid medical reason not to be vaccinated I find it very selfish and self-destructive not to. I don't love the idea of my sick parents waiting hours because someone didn't feel like getting vaccinated then fills up the hospital with the consequences of their actions.

At the same time I accept that it's their choice and it's price society pays to avoid a slide into authoritarianism.

Suggesting we deny them medical services feels good on a leopards ate your face emotional level. It's a short trip to suggesting people ODing on drugs should just be left in the street to die. Someone has lung cancer from smoking? Well they're not overfilling the the ICU but why the hell should we spend money on their health care regardless?


----------



## Brad Sallows

The overarching flaw in calls to limit care is that they are a symptom of this: the government imposes a service, or makes it difficult to opt out, and then resource constraints become an excuse to start limiting access to the service.  Complete bullshit.  We've imposed our system of health insurance on ourselves; we should not limit anyone's access.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Do not disrespect the DQ!


Could be worse, at least he didn’t give them soft serve.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> Yes you're right. Unless someone has a valid medical reason not to be vaccinated I find it very selfish and self-destructive not to. I don't love the idea of my sick parents waiting hours because someone didn't feel like getting vaccinated then fills up the hospital with the consequences of their actions.
> 
> At the same time I accept that it's their choice and it's price society pays to avoid a slide into authoritarianism.
> 
> Suggesting we deny them medical services feels good on a leopards ate your face emotional level. It's a short trip to suggesting people ODing on drugs should just be left in the street to die. Someone has lung cancer from smoking? Well they're not overfilling the the ICU but why the hell should we spend money on their health care regardless?



My personal opinion is politicians and bureaucrats are looking for a scapegoat to blame for their failures in response to the pandemic.  The unvaccinated provide that for them.  

I also think our deaths have been vastly underreported in Canada. Some others have picked up on this and seem to agree with me:






						Canada's real death toll from COVID-19 may far exceed official tally: report
					

The number of Canadians who have died because of the COVID-19 pandemic is likely double that shown in the official numbers, according to a disturbing new report published by the Royal Society of Canada.




					beta.ctvnews.ca
				




All the Nordic Countries have resumed business as usual at this point in time, without any of the mass hysteria we have undergone at some points.  The Norwegians, Danes and Finns all implemented effective border controls early on and got ahead of the curve and now have resumed business as usual, no vaccine passports, no restrictions.  

The Swedes got hammered early on but have done far better than any of the European Countries that went full Stasi.  They also have far lower levels of excess deaths than elsewhere while largely continuing to live life as normal.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well it's not the one that escaped from there that's giving us grief right now....


Do you think they just stopped doing what they do?


----------



## daftandbarmy

The dumpster fire continues... and they need a fire break, apparently:

‘We weren’t thinking about other people’: unvaccinated Alberta man on his time in ICU with COVID-19​
An Alberta man who recently spent time in the ICU with COVID-19 is sharing his story and pleading with those who are unvaccinated to receive the vaccine.

Bernie Cook tested positive for COVID-19 on Aug. 31. He had the Delta variant and says his health deteriorated rapidly.

“It was hitting me hard and I didn’t know what was going on, like whether or not I would live or not.”

He lost 30 pounds, shed muscle mass and now finds simple tasks, like climbing the stairs, difficult. During his interview with Global News, he was often out of breath just from sharing his story.

Cook said he was in the ICU for 11 days. His condition progressed quickly and he was intubated just a few days after being admitted to the hospital.

According to chief medical officer of health Dr. Deena Hinshaw, of the people admitted to Alberta’s ICUs with COVID-19 between June 1 and Sept. 23, 88 per cent were unvaccinated, while six per cent had one dose. Six per cent of ICU admissions were fully vaccinated.

“We’re clogging up the AHS system. We’re clogging it up,” Cook said of the unvaccinated.

“I think that if people saw that side of AHS, of how overwhelmed they were, I think they really would change their mind about getting the vaccine.”









						‘We weren’t thinking about other people’: unvaccinated Alberta man on his time in ICU with COVID-19  | Globalnews.ca
					

An Alberta man who spent 11 days in the ICU with COVID-19 is sharing his story while praising health-care workers and pleading with the unvaccinated.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

> The report, which looked at excess deaths, suggests that largely racialized communities and essential workers were the ones caught in the crosshairs, often perishing at home and going unreported as COVID-19 deaths.



Nothing new about that.


----------



## mariomike

KevinB said:


> I just wish more conservatives would get vaccinated - down here it seems to be a 85% Vax rate for Demoncrats (spelling intended) - and 60% for Republicans - so statistically we will lose more Republicans from COVID as this point (though early mortality was heavy Dem areas).



These are the percentages in Canada by age, sex, province or territory. Doesn't say which party they vote for.





						COVID-19 vaccination coverage in Canada - Canada.ca
					

COVID-19 vaccination coverage across Canada by demographics and key populations. Updated every Friday at 12:00 PM Eastern Time.




					health-infobase.canada.ca


----------



## Kilted

mariomike said:


> These are the percentages in Canada by age, sex, province or territory. Doesn't say which party they vote for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccination coverage in Canada - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccination coverage across Canada by demographics and key populations. Updated every Friday at 12:00 PM Eastern Time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health-infobase.canada.ca


I would say that the majority of the Conservatives in Canada are vaccinated.  I don't know the actual figures, but my guess would be that most if that all Conservative MP/MPP/MLA's are vaccinated.  The PPC ran with the anti-vaxer theme, but apparently, they took voters from the left as well.  Anti-vaxers can be both far left and far right.


----------



## Remius

It’s far less politicized.


----------



## PuckChaser

Kilted said:


> Anti-vaxers can be both far left and far right.


Crazy how misguided authoritarianism can unite traditional foes. It's almost like human beings have an instinct to rebel when you force them to do something.


----------



## mariomike

​​​


Kilted said:


> I would say that the majority of the Conservatives in Canada are vaccinated.  I don't know the actual figures, but my guess would be that most if that all Conservative MP/MPP/MLA's are vaccinated.  The PPC ran with the anti-vaxer theme, but apparently, they took voters from the left as well.  Anti-vaxers can be both far left and far right.


Saw this from the Angus Reid Institute, if interested,








						Unvaccinated? Meet the Unsympathetic: Most inoculated Canadians indifferent to whether the non-jabbed get sick - Angus Reid Institute
					

Most CPC supporters support making vaccines mandatory in public places to encourage immunization August 17, 2021 – The first few days of Canada’s 44th general election campaign are not only




					angusreid.org
				




QUOTE

*Political divide*​There are clear political divides over how Canadians would like to see this issue handled. Three-quarters of Canadians support the use of regulations – such as mandatory vaccination to enter certain public spaces in their province – as an instrument to convince unvaccinated Canadians towards being jabbed.

This group leans less towards the carrot than the stick. Fully (46%) say regulations should be the sole strategy their provincial government (the level of government responsible for setting health policy) employs. By contrast, one-quarter (27%) say it should be part of a combined approach including incentives.

Across the political spectrum, support for mandatory measures either solely, or in combination with incentives, exceeds half the population (55%). Notably, fully one-third (33%) of those who intend to support the CPC in the coming election oppose the use of either incentives or regulations. For partisans of the other major federal parties, support for regulations or a combination approach reaches – or exceeds – four-in-five:

These divisions run deep in parts of western Canada. In Saskatchewan, 37 per cent of residents say their provincial government should do nothing to encourage vaccination; three-in-ten in Manitoba say the same. In British Columbia, Ontario, and Atlantic Canada, support for primarily regulatory measures reaches a majority.

END QUOTE


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

PuckChaser said:


> Crazy how misguided authoritarianism can unite traditional foes. It's almost like human beings have an instinct to rebel when you force them to do something.


Not really.......99% of the world are on board, but they don't make great clickbait headlines like a bunch of whiny morons.


----------



## PuckChaser

Really? Because police are pepper spraying protesters and arresting people walking thier dogs for the crime of not wearing masks outside in Australia. Italy and France are having daily large protests against their vax passes, maybe because they've lived in what an authoritarian police state looks like.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

While 99% of the population are going about their daily business.   Yawn.....


----------



## daftandbarmy

PuckChaser said:


> Crazy how misguided authoritarianism can unite traditional foes. It's almost like human beings have an instinct to rebel when you force them to do something.



Which is why good platoons have ruthless Platoon 2ICs


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I say that judging from my social media feeds and daily interactions the unvaccinated are a mix of everything and for many different reason, as I said before the ones who are not political stay quiet to avoid painting a target on themselves.


----------



## QV

Typical 'vaccine hesitant' person is a 42-year-old Ontario woman who votes Liberal: Abacus polling - Macleans.ca
					

Bruce Anderson: Compared to the vaccinated, the vaccine hesitant don’t have a lot of trust in government. They also try to avoid prescriptions, dislike putting anything unnatural in their bodies and say they are reluctant to take any vaccines. Most worry that COVID-19 vaccines haven’t really...




					www.macleans.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> Typical 'vaccine hesitant' person is a 42-year-old Ontario woman who votes Liberal: Abacus polling - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> Bruce Anderson: Compared to the vaccinated, the vaccine hesitant don’t have a lot of trust in government. They also try to avoid prescriptions, dislike putting anything unnatural in their bodies and say they are reluctant to take any vaccines. Most worry that COVID-19 vaccines haven’t really...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macleans.ca


So ‘Karen’ doesn’t like government telling her what to do, but she votes Liberal…


----------



## The Bread Guy

Breitbart:  _"Could it possibly be that the left has manipulated huge swathes of Trump voters into believing they are owning the left by not taking the life-saving Trump Vaccine?"_ (links to archived version of article in case you don't want to link to Breitbart) ...


> ... If I wanted to use reverse psychology to convince people not to get a life-saving vaccination, I would do exactly what Stern and the left are doing… I would bully and taunt and mock and ridicule you for not getting vaccinated, knowing the human response would be, _Hey, fuck you, I’m never getting vaccinated!
> _
> And why is that a perfectly human response? Because no one ever wants to feel like they are being bullied or ridiculed or mocked or pushed into doing _anything_.
> 
> Who wants to cave to piece of shit like Howard Stern (or Jimmy Kimmel or these repulsive doctors refusing to treat the unvaccinated or Bette Midler or, or, or…) Who wants to feel like they’re caving to a guy who’s such a piece of shit he publicly mocks people who have died. And he’s not just a piece of shit mocking them; he’s a piece of shit hurting the families the dead men left behind.
> 
> No one wants to cave to a piece of shit like that, or a scumbag like Fauci, or any of the scumbags at CNNLOL, so we don’t. And what’s the result? They’re all vaccinated, and we’re not! And when you look at the numbers, the only numbers that matter, which is who’s dying, it’s overwhelmingly the unvaccinated who are dying, and they have just manipulated millions of their political enemies into the unvaccinated camp ...


Really?


----------



## Remius

The Bread Guy said:


> Breitbart:  _"Could it possibly be that the left has manipulated huge swathes of Trump voters into believing they are owning the left by not taking the life-saving Trump Vaccine?"_ (links to archived version of article in case you don't want to link to Breitbart) ...
> 
> Really?


Why not.  They’ve pretty much said all sorts of crazy shyte before.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Typical 'vaccine hesitant' person is a 42-year-old Ontario woman who votes Liberal: Abacus polling - Macleans.ca
> 
> 
> Bruce Anderson: Compared to the vaccinated, the vaccine hesitant don’t have a lot of trust in government. They also try to avoid prescriptions, dislike putting anything unnatural in their bodies and say they are reluctant to take any vaccines. Most worry that COVID-19 vaccines haven’t really...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.macleans.ca


For the rest of the story.

Same article. Same author.

QUOTE

Vaccine refusers are a different situation. They are unhappy with the direction of the world, and of Canada.

Three quarters (73 percent) of them think COVID-19 is a hoax or greatly exaggerated, while only 33 percent of the hesitant buy that argument.

Two thirds of them (69 percent) don’t worry at all about getting COVID-19 (only 27 percent of the hesitant feel this way). Two thirds (65 percent) say if they got COVID-19 they wouldn’t get really sick (only 40 percent of the hesitant agree).

Forty percent of refusers don’t trust doctors, while only 17 percent of the hesitant feel that way. Most Canadians don’t trust Donald Trump or Fox News, but the more they do, the more likely they are to avoid getting vaccinated. Among the fully vaxxed, 11 percent trust Fox and Trump compared to 28 percent among the hesitant and 40% among the refusers.

Most refusers will probably not be vaccinated unless being unvaccinated becomes too costly or inconvenient. If they haven’t been scared by the disease by now, they won’t be. If they haven’t been persuaded by peers or medical professionals by now, that probably won’t change. Only 6 percent say that their doctor could change their mind, only 3 percent say a friend or family member could.

For the refusers, it seems to come down to a profound lack of trust in government, doctors, vaccines and the direction of the world. For the hesitant, it’s more a question of confidence building and in some cases nudging with messages, incentives and infringements on the flexibility of life as an unvaxxed person.

END QUOTE


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Suggesting we deny them medical services feels good on a leopards ate your face emotional level. It's a short trip to suggesting people ODing on drugs should just be left in the street to die. Someone has lung cancer from smoking? Well they're not overfilling the the ICU but why the hell should we spend money on their health care regardless?



People filling hospitals by not getting vaccinated restricts how the rest of society functions. Restrictions, passports, size limits etc all are a result of the 20% of the population being idiots and cowards. People ODing on the street and dying from lung cancer doesn't force me to prove my vaccination status before I enter a stadium to watch sports and wear face cloths inside buildings and at work. The 20% of idiots out there are the problem.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> doesn't force me to prove my vaccination status before I enter a stadium to watch sports and wear face cloths inside buildings and at work. The 20% of idiots out there are the problem.


And now because you're wearing a mask, social distancing and bathing in hand sanitizer I'm less likely to catch the flu or a cold which could lead to dangerous pneumonia.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> For the refusers, it seems to come down to a profound lack of trust in government, doctors, vaccines and the direction of the world.





> or the hesitant, it’s more a question of confidence building



Either way, a lack of trust.  How'd that happen, I wonder.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Either way, a lack of trust.  How'd that happen, I wonder.


Plenty of misinformation by internet idiots is one factor.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Because threatening and bribing doctors is always a good way to get what you want ....


'It's really scary': Alberta physicians face more aggressive, misinformed patients​​Some patients seeking notes for COVID-19 vaccine exemption become abusive when denied, doctors report​

Some family physicians in Alberta say they are dealing with an increasing number of aggressive, misinformed and untrusting patients who want a note exempting them from getting a COVID-19 vaccine.

Two of three Calgary doctors who spoke to The Canadian Press also said some people have yelled racist comments at them after they declined to write a note because the patients did not have health conditions known to cause serious side-effects to a shot.

"They mostly comment on my brown skin and hijab," said Dr. Sakina Raj. "I'm also Muslim ... so they come to religion and they get personal with that.

"It's really scary because I feel sometimes they were so abusive verbally, that they could harm us. But I still am kind to them. I calm them down nicely. I'm too experienced to be stressed by them."

Raj said since Premier Jason Kenney announced a proof of vaccination program to try to turn back a crippling fourth wave in the province, safety has become such a concern that Sehet Medical Clinic is now dealing with new patients wanting an exemption only on the phone.

Raj and another Calgary physician said more than three patients a day are asking their clinics for an exemption. Dr. Mukarram Zaidi said one patient tried to bribe him with $200.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/doctors-abuse-covid-exemptions-calgary-vaccine-1.6195142


----------



## Brad Sallows

Someone should do a study on which has more malign influence on trust: perfidious behaviour by those who are required to be trusted, or internet idiots.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Plenty of misinformation by internet idiots is one factor.


I wonder how much of their "research" is done at libraries?

At least librarians divide books into Fiction and Non-Fiction.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> I wonder how much of their "research" is done at libraries?
> 
> At least librarians divide books into Fiction and Non-Fiction.


Not of it is actual research though.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Someone should do a study on which has more malign influence on trust: perfidious behaviour by those who are required to be trusted, or internet idiots.


Start with Dr. Andrew Wakefield.  Then see what Jenny McCarthy did.  It snowballs from there.  People listened to her.  A playboy model and B list actress.  That is who they follow.  People like that.  Internet idiots have an amazing reach because they tell people what they want to hear not what is fact.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> "They mostly comment on my brown skin and hijab," said Dr. Sakina Raj. "I'm also Muslim ... so they come to religion and they get personal with that.
> 
> "It's really scary because I feel sometimes they were so abusive verbally, that they could harm us. But I still am kind to them. I calm them down nicely. I'm too experienced to be stressed by them."


Recent months have been an education in human behavior, for me at least, about people at their best - and worst.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> Recent months have been an education in human behavior, for me at least, about people at their best - and worst.


I'd suggest the last six years.


----------



## QV

Interesting data captured here relating to COVID-19 hospitalization rates in the last two weeks. Looks like the 4th wave is going away.





__





						States ranked by COVID-19 hospitalization rates
					

New daily COVID-19 hospitalization rates in the U.S. have decreased 8 percent over the last two weeks, though 25 states are still seeing hospitalization rates trend upward, according to data tracked by The New York Times.




					www.beckershospitalreview.com
				












						COVID Data Tracker
					

CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.



					covid.cdc.gov


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> Interesting data captured here relating to COVID-19 hospitalization rates in the last two weeks. Looks like the 4th wave is going away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States ranked by COVID-19 hospitalization rates
> 
> 
> New daily COVID-19 hospitalization rates in the U.S. have decreased 8 percent over the last two weeks, though 25 states are still seeing hospitalization rates trend upward, according to data tracked by The New York Times.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beckershospitalreview.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Data Tracker
> 
> 
> CDC’s home for COVID-19 data. Visualizations, graphs, and data in one easy-to-use website.
> 
> 
> 
> covid.cdc.gov


“Going away” would seem premature if 17 states are still seeing increases. We’ve seen lots of jurisdictional variation throughout the pandemic. A general decline is, of course, positive- but little relief for the jurisdictions that are not.


----------



## QV

brihard said:


> “Going away” would seem premature if 17 states are still seeing increases. We’ve seen lots of jurisdictional variation throughout the pandemic. A general decline is, of course, positive- but little relief for the jurisdictions that are not.


I'm a glass half full kind of person. 33 are going down faster than 17 are going up. 

Of particular note are the states among the fastest that are declining in hospitalizations: Mississippi, Florida and Texas.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> I'd suggest the last six years.


This thread only goes back to 2019.

Nothing new about racism in Canada. 

But, taking it out on a female doctor seems, to me at least, to be taking it to a new level.



> "They mostly comment on my brown skin and hijab," said Dr. Sakina Raj. "I'm also Muslim ... so they come to religion and they get personal with that. It's really scary because I feel sometimes they were so abusive verbally, that they could harm us.


----------



## Altair

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/merck-covid19-pill-us-fda-deaths-1.6196007
		


Hey, good news.

A pill that thus far has shown it can stop deaths from covid and reduce hospitalizations in half.

Wonder if the vax hesitant would take that.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/merck-covid19-pill-us-fda-deaths-1.6196007
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, good news.
> 
> A pill that thus far has shown it can stop deaths from covid and reduce hospitalizations in half.
> 
> Wonder if the vax hesitant would take that.


Truly vaccine hesitant people would likely not if they follow their own logic about wanting more info and data.

Anti vaxers is a mixed bag.  Some might since they have no issue taking horse pills.  But the cynic in me thinks that anything that gets FDA approval will not be trusted by that particular segment of society.  I’m sure if Joe Rogan, Jenny McCarthy or Bob from the internet said it was good to go based on their “research” then maybe.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Truly vaccine hesitant people would likely not if they follow their own logic about wanting more info and data.
> 
> Anti vaxers is a mixed bag.  Some might since they have no issue taking horse pills.  But the cynic in me thinks that anything that gets FDA approval will not be trusted by that particular segment of society.  I’m sure if Joe Rogan, Jenny McCarthy or Bob from the internet said it was good to go based on their “research” then maybe.


Maybe it would be a good idea for Merck to get a sponsorship deal in place with Joe Rogan and Jenny McCarthy or Bob from the internet, lol.

Seriously though, I would have imagines the good folks pushing Ivermectin would love a FDA approved drug doing what they claim Ivermectin can do.

Avoid the jab, take a pill when sick, slash in half the chance of being in hospital and in all likelihood eliminate the risk of death.

It's not every day a trial gets stopped in its tracks because it's deemed unethical to proceed because people getting the placebo are dying and those on the drug are not.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> Maybe it would be a good idea for Merck to get a sponsorship deal in place with Joe Rogan and Jenny McCarthy or Bob from the internet, lol.
> 
> Seriously though, I would have imagines the good folks pushing Ivermectin would love a FDA approved drug doing what they claim Ivermectin can do.
> 
> Avoid the jab, take a pill when sick, slash in half the chance of being in hospital and in all likelihood eliminate the risk of death.
> 
> It's not every day a trial gets stopped in its tracks because it's deemed unethical to proceed because people getting the placebo are dying and those on the drug are not.


No kidding. That’s reasonably compelling. Hopefully they get the EUA fast if in fact the data checks out.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/merck-covid19-pill-us-fda-deaths-1.6196007
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, good news.
> 
> A pill that thus far has shown it can stop deaths from covid and reduce hospitalizations in half.
> 
> Wonder if the vax hesitant would take that.


But I thought vaccines were the only way out of this?


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> I’m sure if Joe Rogan, Jenny McCarthy or Bob from the internet said it was good to go based on their “research” then maybe.


Do they really believe what they are saying? Or, do they just know that anti-vaxers are easy marks?


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> But I thought vaccines were the only way out of this?


True at the time I said it. 

This however, is a drug that has gone through credible clinical trials and has documented benefits to those who take it. 

Something the drugs you were pushing at the time did not. 

And if this drug gets EUA from the FDA it will also have something that hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin did not have.

I trust you you are happy with this development?


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> Do they really believe what they are saying? Or, do they just know that anti-vaxers are easy marks?


Either way, this drug should check either one of those boxes.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> True at the time I said it.
> 
> This however, is a drug that has gone through credible clinical trials and has documented benefits to those who take it.
> 
> Something the drugs you were pushing at the time did not.
> 
> And if this drug gets EUA from the FDA it will also have something that hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin did not have.
> 
> I trust you you are happy with this development?



Both Ivermectin and hcq are already FDA approved drugs. Off label use is not new. 

This development only increases my suspicion the almighty $ is the bigger driver over actual health in public health decisions.

Let me guess, this new pill will be substantially more expensive than IVM?


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> Both Ivermectin and hcq are already FDA approved drugs. Off label use is not new.


Not new, but a recommended treatment for covid 19


QV said:


> This development only increases my suspicion the almighty $ is the bigger driver over actual health in public health decisions.


So.....you're not happy that a drug can combat covid effectively thus giving an option to those not wanting a vaccine?


QV said:


> Let me guess, this new pill will be substantially more expensive than IVM?


5 dollars a pill, for 10 pills over 5 days.(Noted, this is production costs, don't know what the profit markup will be)

Ivermictin is 4 dollars a pill.


----------



## mariomike

An incentive from the insurance industry,​Louisiana health system to charge employees with unvaccinated spouses a monthly premium of $200​Ochsner Health President and CEO Warner Thomas said the surcharge for unvaccinated spouses and partners is part of an effort to keep health premiums low for employees.








						Health workers with unvaccinated spouses, partners face surcharge in Louisiana
					

Ochsner Health President and CEO Warner Thomas said the surcharge for unvaccinated spouses and partners is part of an effort to keep health premiums low for employees.




					www.nbcnews.com
				




Also an incentive from the Governor,



> Gov. John Bel Edwards announced Friday that Louisiana’s “Shot for 100” program, which has been offering $100 cash cards to college students who get vaccinated, is expanding to offer the money to anyone who gets newly immunized against Covid-19.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Not new, but a recommended treatment for covid 19
> 
> So.....you're not happy that a drug can combat covid effectively thus giving an option to those not wanting a vaccine?
> 
> 5 dollars a pill, for 10 pills over 5 days.(Noted, this is production costs, don't know what the profit markup will be)
> 
> Ivermictin is 4 dollars a pill.


Well this great news then! Another tool in the fight against the pandemic. Will those normally inoculated people opting for the COVID pill over the COVID vaccine still be banned from society called antivaxxers?


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> Well this great news then! Another tool in the fight against the pandemic. Will those normally inoculated people opting for the COVID pill over the COVID vaccine still be banned from society called antivaxxers?


Yeah, probably, and they’ll still have to deal with restrictions so long as public health emergencies remain in effect. That’s a choice on their part.

But, definitely, therapeutics that can help newly diagnosed cases stay out of hospital is an objectively good thing and will help to bring ICU demand down, which is the single greatest threat. Hopefully this does in fact work.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> Well this great news then! Another tool in the fight against the pandemic. Will those normally inoculated people opting for the COVID pill over the COVID vaccine still be banned from society called antivaxxers?


Once supply is up and rolling (it isn't being mass produced yet) I can imagine it being once people start feeling sick they get a pcr test and if confirmed covid, they get 5 days of molnupiravir. 

Cutting in half peoples chances of ending up in hospital will significantly reduce stress on hospitals, especially if those that do end up in hospital are not deadly sick.

That may not eliminate the pandemic, since a sick person in hospital is still a sick person in hospital, but instead of a massive influx over a short period of time we get 50 percent less over the same period of time, giving public health more lead time before hospitals are overwhelmed.

And if rates can get to a place where things are steady and this drug keeps people out of hospital and ICU numbers are in a good place, I can see it being the real endgame for this pandemic.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> Once supply is up and rolling (it isn't being mass produced yet) I can imagine it being once people start feeling sick they get a pcr test and if confirmed covid, they get 5 days of molnupiravir.
> 
> Cutting in half peoples chances of ending up in hospital will significantly reduce stress on hospitals, especially if those that do end up in hospital are not deadly sick.
> 
> That may not eliminate the pandemic, since a sick person in hospital is still a sick person in hospital, but instead of a massive influx over a short period of time we get 50 percent less over the same period of time, giving public health more lead time before hospitals are overwhelmed.
> 
> And if rates can get to a place where things are steady and this drug keeps people out of hospital and ICU numbers are in a good place, I can see it being the real endgame for this pandemic.


Watch it be unexpectedly potent for boosting the fertility of horses, and the early supply gets diverted to Kentucky and Saudi Arabia.


----------



## Weinie

brihard said:


> Watch it be unexpectedly potent for boosting the fertility of horses, and the early supply gets diverted to Kentucky and Saudi Arabia.


You are usually not this cynical. What gives?


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:


> You are usually not this cynical. What gives?


Oh, I’m purely making a joke loosely referencing the Ivermectin horse paste stuff. You’ve taken my offhand comment seriously, one of the classic blunders.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> Well this great news then! Another tool in the fight against the pandemic. Will those normally inoculated people *opting for the COVID pill over the COVID vaccine* still be banned from society called antivaxxers?



Merck's pill is not a replacement for a vaccine.  It was not developed as a prophylactic but as a treatment for confirmed covid infection.  Who knows, it may eventually have some prophylactic properties but the phase 2/3 trials included only those that were specifically tested positive and had symptoms.

Inclusion criteria for the non-hospitalized participants








						Efficacy and Safety of Molnupiravir (MK-4482) in Non-Hospitalized Adult Participants With COVID-19 (MK-4482-002) - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
					

Efficacy and Safety of Molnupiravir (MK-4482) in Non-Hospitalized Adult Participants With COVID-19 (MK-4482-002) - Full Text View.




					clinicaltrials.gov
				





> Has documentation of laboratory confirmed severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection with sample collection ≤5 days prior to the day of randomization. PCR is the preferred method; however with evolving approaches to laboratory confirmation of SARS-CoV-2 infection, other molecular or antigen tests that detect viral ribonucleic acid (RNA) or protein are allowed if authorized for use in the country. Serological tests that detect host antibodies generated in response to recent or prior infection are not allowed.
> Had initial onset of signs/symptoms attributable to COVID-19 for ≤5 days prior to the day of randomization and at least 1 of the following sign/symptom attributable to COVID-19 on the day of randomization.
> Has mild or moderate COVID-19.



And criteria for hospitalized participants








						Efficacy and Safety of Molnupiravir (MK-4482) in Hospitalized Adult Participants With COVID-19 (MK-4482-001) - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
					

Efficacy and Safety of Molnupiravir (MK-4482) in Hospitalized Adult Participants With COVID-19 (MK-4482-001) - Full Text View.




					clinicaltrials.gov
				





> Has documentation of polymerase chain reaction (PCR)-confirmed severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection with sample collection ≤ 10 days prior to the day of randomization. PCR is the preferred method; however other diagnostic methods are allowed if authorized by use in the country
> Had initial onset of signs/symptoms attributable to COVID-19 for ≤10 days prior to the day of randomization and ≥1 sign/symptom attributable to COVID-19 present at randomization
> Requires medical care in the hospital for ongoing clinical manifestations of COVID-19 (not just for public health or quarantine purposes)
> Has mild, moderate, or severe COVID-19


----------



## dapaterson

brihard said:


> Oh, I’m purely making a joke loosely referencing the Ivermectin horse paste stuff. You’ve taken my offhand comment seriously, one of the classic blunders.


Next up: Land war in Asia.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ouch....

*What Covid-19 Has Done to Our Well-Being, in 12 Charts *

The pandemic has led to mental health declines, increased work demands, and feelings of loneliness. But the news isn’t all bad. by

Summary. How has Covid-19 and the related shift to WFH affected workers? A group of researchers surveyed HBR readers and others in the fall of 2020 and found that the vast majority reported declines in both general and workplace well-being. The biggest...

Feeling burned out? You’re not alone. According to a new survey of nearly 1,500 people from 46 countries, the vast majority of us are struggling with general and workplace well-being as the pandemic continues to rage. These struggles are affecting our mental health and involve some of the key predictors of burnout, including an unsustainable workload, the absence of a supportive community, and the feeling that you don’t have control over your life and work.

The survey is part of a larger project aimed at measuring people’s rates of burnout during Covid-19. It’s led by a team of researchers — Jennifer Moss, Michael Leiter, Christina Maslach, and David Whiteside — who asked HBR readers and others a series of quantitative, demographic, and open-ended questions in the fall of 2020. The open-ended portion resulted in more than 3,000 comments, the majority from knowledge workers who have done their jobs remotely for at least part of the pandemic. Whiteside coded the responses into major trends and subthemes and helped us identify key insights from the data. Below is a closer look at a selection of these.

Overwhelmingly, respondents reported mental health declines, challenges with meeting basic needs, and feelings of loneliness and isolation. They also noted increased job demands and growing disengagement at work. But the news wasn’t all bad. Some people actually reported improved well-being, and the reasons for it could help organizations pinpoint ways to help employees in the future.

Below are some key findings. The first section presents an overview of the data. The second and third sections examine general well-being and why it went down — or up — for different people. The fourth and fifth sections look specifically at workplace well-being. There are select quotes from survey respondents throughout, which have been edited for length and clarity. Note that percentages refer to the number of respondents who made clear references to the general sentiments, trends, and themes, and do not add up to 100%.


What Covid-19 Has Done to Our Well-Being, in 12 Charts


----------



## ModlrMike

In other news...


----------



## brihard

Well, there’s the announcement. Core public administration inclusive of CAF, RCMP, CBSA etc will now have mandatory vaccinations by October 29th, with LWOP for noncompliance by mid November. Specifically mentioned, CAF will see something from CDS soon (I assume a CANFORGEN).


----------



## QV

Sweden temporarily halts the Moderna C19 vaccine for anyone under 30 after it received evidence of an increased risk of side effects such as inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis) and inflammation of the pericardium (pericarditis).



			Sweden halts use of Moderna's COVID vaccine in under 30s


----------



## brihard

TBS policy is now out. This applies to Fed Government _except_ CAF, but gives a good idea of what CAF will be mirroring.

Basically Vax or GTFO.






						Policy on COVID-19 Vaccination for the Core Public Administration Including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police- Canada.ca
					






					www.tbs-sct.gc.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson

ModlrMike said:


> In other news...
> 
> 
> View attachment 66701


Laugh all you want, but AI is going to end up doing 75% of what doctors do and I can tell you from personal experience that with chronic issues your better off belonging to a group that suffers from similar than to purely rely on the current healthcare system.


----------



## Weinie

Colin Parkinson said:


> Laugh all you want, but AI is going to end up doing 75% of what doctors do and I can tell you from personal experience that with chronic issues your better off belonging to a group that suffers from similar than to purely rely on the current healthcare system.


Ummmm.........don't understand what you are trying to say here Colin. Perhaps some context would help.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:


> Ummmm.........don't understand what you are trying to say here Colin. Perhaps some context would help.


I totally get what he’s saying. Especially if you have a rare chronic condition, communities of other suffers can be incredibly supportive and informative compared to an hour with your doctor once or twice a month, when they may never have encountered your condition before.

While the pic above was satire, Colin’s not wrong- the healthcare system does pretty well with most stuff most of the time for most people. The farther outside of the normal distribution your health problems are, the tougher good care can be to get.


----------



## Weinie

brihard said:


> I totally get what he’s saying. Especially if you have a rare chronic condition, communities of other suffers can be incredibly supportive and informative compared to an hour with your doctor once or twice a month, when they may never have encountered your condition before.
> 
> While the pic above was satire, Colin’s not wrong- the healthcare system does pretty well with most stuff most of the time for most people. The farther outside of the normal distribution your health problems are, the tougher good care can be to get.


And that is the context I was looking for, albeit from a different source. My comment wasn't meant to be critical, rather quizzical.


----------



## brihard

By weird coincidence I have three friends or acquaintances (two current or former CAF) who all have a rare genetic condition called Ehlers-Danlos; it’s a connective tissue disease. They’ve all had a hell of a time getting traction with the healthcare system, and happen to have found solid support from other sufferers. The internet is amazing for things like that. One of those things I’ve been fortunate to learn vicariously.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Have a heart attack, get into a car accident and our Healthcare system does very well, it 's really seems to be designed around the ER. GP's are really hit or miss, they used to be better in my opinion, but the costs of running a practise and the funding model drives a system where the GP is under pressure to limit your call/visit to a 15 minute window.
Sidenote, we used to have a GP who was hated by the hospital staff and labs because she took "taking the side of the patient" to the extreme. She was old school when you asked for a full physical, she make a WWII intake doctor proud. She was not afraid of the human body, unlike most physicians even before Covid, who seem reluctant to examine you. She was also the spitting image of Olive oyl from the Popeye cartoon/movie.


----------



## Brad Sallows

After doctors finish "basic" (med school), there's a merit-based pecking order for applying for the high-speed specialty slots.  Those who don't make the cut for something more demanding (and lucrative) get to be GPs.  (I'm sure there are some people who elect to be GPs.)

GPs have to be good enough to recognize when people urgently need referral for the diagnostics that will prove they need immediate specialty care.

What I see as the two weakest points of Canadian health care are a) some routine/elective procedures, for which people languish a long time on waiting lists; and b) proving you need urgent life-saving care.

Everyone I know who had a (b) problem and got the proof subsequently got onto a pretty fast track for life-saving care.  And that part of our system is pretty much as good as anyone else's.


----------



## a_majoor

While "we" get more draconian restrictions in place, Sweden gets better results without:






						Zerohedge
					

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero




					www.zerohedge.com
				




So what exactly is happening in Sweden that work better than lockdowns and mandates? It seems that doubling down isn't doing the job in Canada or the US (and of course there are similar disparities in outcomes between States with and without the lockdowns and mandates).

Maybe it's time to do some _serious_ research so Canadians can get out from under lockdowns, mandates and get back to our daily lives.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I tried to find any other webpage that supported the above post and couldn't find one.

Its low now because so many people freakin' died......I'll take our _cough_ lockdowns thanks.


----------



## mariomike

a_majoor said:


> Zerohedge
> 
> 
> ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zerohedge.com


Interesting website.








						ZeroHedge
					

CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence.




					mediabiasfactcheck.com


----------



## HiTechComms

mariomike said:


> Interesting website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZeroHedge
> 
> 
> CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mediabiasfactcheck.com











						Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				











						Canada COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Canada Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




High Vaccination rates.









						Israel COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Israel Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				











						Singapore COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

Singapore Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## brihard

Sweden’s still running about double our death rate per capita, and between 2.5 - 3x case rate per capita. Not sure they’re as good a comparison as some would think? With their death rate we’d have about 55,000 dead Canadians. At double the case rate I expect we’d have seen critical care system collapse in Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and possibly BC and Quebec.

I don’t understand why Sweden still gets touted the way it does. The only way their results can be held to be ‘better’ is by discarding a lot of human life.


----------



## HiTechComms

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I tried to find any other webpage that supported the above post and couldn't find one.
> 
> Its low now because so many people freakin' died......I'll take our _cough_ lockdowns thanks.


Basic math. Flatten the curve. Deaths over Time. The only way to flatten the curve was to stretch the time frame which would essentially lower the curve. Flattening the curve just simply meant you are not gone get sick now you will get sick later. Slowing down an infection doesn't stop it. The whole point according to the politicians and medical community was to not overload the health care system.

Sweden's dry tinder got lit up and burned up compared to lets say Canada where we simply have a smouldering fire. Same numbers in the end of dead. The only difference will be how much it will cost to reach those end numbers.

Not making an argument for or against. Just a different strategy.


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> Sweden’s still running about double our death rate per capita, and between 2.5 - 3x case rate per capita. Not sure they’re as good a comparison as some would think? With their death rate we’d have about 55,000 dead Canadians. At double the case rate I expect we’d have seen critical care system collapse in Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and possibly BC and Quebec.
> 
> I don’t understand why Sweden still gets touted the way it does. The only way their results can be held to be ‘better’ is by discarding a lot of human life.


BC had more Opioid deaths  per yer then Covid. If life actually meant anything we would have done something about it.

Lastly Canada is entering a demographic winter. Most provinces have more people over 65 then under 15. All western countries have this problem. You think people dying now is a problem. Wait another 5 years. We will go bankrupt due to sheer strain on our health care as per statistical usage of health care of an individual over the age of 70.


----------



## GR66

HiTechComms said:


> Sweden's dry tinder got lit up and burned up compared to lets say Canada where we simply have a smouldering fire. Same numbers in the end of dead. The only difference will be how much it will cost to reach those end numbers.


I don't understand where you get the highlighted part.  From the same Worldometer site:

Canada:  Deaths per 1 million population - 737
Sweden:  Deaths per 1 million population - 1,459

Literally twice the death rate as Canada.


----------



## brihard

Sweden’s currently running about double the active cases per capita that we are. Their average daily rate of new cases per capita is a bit lower than ours now due to the Alberta spike- we have not fared well in this spike primarily due to Alberta - but Sweden’s tinder is hardly burned.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

GR66 said:


> I don't understand where you get the highlighted part.  From the same Worldometer site:
> 
> Canada:  Deaths per 1 million population - 737
> Sweden:  Deaths per 1 million population - 1,459
> 
> Literally twice the death rate as Canada.


Meh, math is hard…


----------



## HiTechComms

GR66 said:


> I don't understand where you get the highlighted part.  From the same Worldometer site:
> 
> Canada:  Deaths per 1 million population - 737
> Sweden:  Deaths per 1 million population - 1,459
> 
> Literally twice the death rate as Canada.


You think our pandemic is gone end before Sweden's? Canada will be in the pandemic for another year. Sweden will reach heard immunity before we do.
As I previously stated they had a bigger fire then we did at the start. Sweden's deaths are slowing down and their waves are smaller.

I am surprised that people get offended at this strategy..  Sweden is sacrificing the old and frail so they don't have to sacrifice everyone else. This strategy is no different then Canada instituting WW1 conscription to fight a war using young men.  I mean Canada didn't need to go to WW1 they still did it. Look what the Russians did during WW2.


----------



## Altair

HiTechComms said:


> You think our pandemic is gone end before Sweden's? Canada will be in the pandemic for another year. Sweden will reach heard immunity before we do.
> 
> I am surprised that people get offended at this strategy..  Sweden is sacrificing the old and frail so they don't have to sacrifice everyone else. This strategy is no different then Canada instituting WW1 conscription to fight a war using young men.  I mean Canada didn't need to go to WW1 they still did it. Look what the Russians did during WW2.


Unfortunately natural immunity seems to wane even faster than vaccine produced immunity and 33 percent of those with covid do not seem to get any lasting immunity from covid.

So even shorter and less coverage is provided from natural immunity.

Also, the part that everyone forgets to mention is that those other countries have a lot of ICU beds and staff to care for patients meanwhile Canada runs on the razors edge and cannot handle even half a percentage point more people in the ICU before the system collapses upon itself, thus we cannot compare pandemic responses.

Florida and Sweden can afford to let covid run wild because they can handle a surge in patients far better. Meanwhile the Alberta healthcare system, arguably the best funded in the country, just tried to do that and it's at the point where if you get in a car crash and need an icu bed you might as well be dead because covid cases are talking up the beds.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

HiTechComms said:


> You think our pandemic is gone end before Sweden's? Canada will be in the pandemic for another year. Sweden will reach heard immunity before we do.
> As I previously stated they had a bigger fire then we did at the start. Sweden's deaths are slowing down and their waves are smaller.
> 
> I am surprised that people get offended at this strategy..  Sweden is sacrificing the old and frail so they don't have to sacrifice everyone else. This strategy is no different then Canada instituting WW1 conscription to fight a war using young men.  I mean Canada didn't need to go to WW1 they still did it. Look what the Russians did during WW2.


A couple folks cold-cocked your arguments but don't let reality stop you from going on and on....


----------



## HiTechComms

Altair said:


> Unfortunately natural immunity seems to wane even faster than vaccine produced immunity and 33 percent of those with covid do not seem to get any lasting immunity from covid.
> 
> So even shorter and less coverage is provided from natural immunity.
> 
> Also, the part that everyone forgets to mention is that those other countries have a lot of ICU beds and staff to care for patients meanwhile Canada runs on the razors edge and cannot handle even half a percentage point more people in the ICU before the system collapses upon itself, thus we cannot compare pandemic responses.
> 
> Florida and Sweden can afford to let covid run wild because they can handle a surge in patients far better. Meanwhile the Alberta healthcare system, arguably the best funded in the country, just tried to do that and it's at the point where if you get in a car crash and need an icu bed you might as well be dead because covid cases are talking up the beds.


Well the natural immunity vs vaccinated immunity. The study out of Israel says otherwise. Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

All this money spent on this pandemic and not a single hospital to be built. Didn't Kenny get rid of bunch of beds right before this wave hit?

Florida, Sweden and Canada have a problem of demographics. Our health care is in trouble now, wait another 5-8 years where most Baby Boomers will be in the 80 year old range. Covid is just one of the problems, demographics is far bigger problem. Take a look at the difference between India and Canada and covid.


----------



## mariomike

> wait another 5-8 years where most Baby Boomers will be in the 80 year old range.



Some call Covid "Boomer Remover".


----------



## HiTechComms

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> A couple folks cold-cocked your arguments but don't let reality stop you from going on and on....


People die all the time. The state and the authority will sacrifice people for the "greater good" what ever they deem the greater good is. I just don't Pearl clutch over reality of Weak/Frail and Old dying (Not saying we should be callous about it, but reality doesn't care).

Military leaders don't pearl clutch when giving orders on objectives which may cost lives. 

I grew under different political and cultural norms and to me this is not the end of the world.  It is what it is and that is all it is.


----------



## Altair

HiTechComms said:


> Well the natural immunity vs vaccinated immunity. The study out of Israel says otherwise. Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections
> 
> All this money spent on this pandemic and not a single hospital to be built. Didn't Kenny get rid of bunch of beds right before this wave hit?
> 
> Florida, Sweden and Canada have a problem of demographics. Our health care is in trouble now, wait another 5-8 years where most boomers will be in the 80 year old range. Covid is just one of the problems, demographics is far bigger problem. Take a look at the difference between India and Canada and covid.











						36% Of Those Who Had Covid-19 Didn’t Develop Antibodies, Study Says
					

This is further evidence that you should get vaccinated regardless of whether you've had a Covid-19 coronavirus infection previously.




					www.google.com
				




Consider it cases of contradicting studies then, because this is just another of multiple studies over the course of a year saying that a good percentage of people who had covid do not develop covid antibodies.

As for money spent on the pandemic, a lot went to wage support and business subsidies. Considering it takes years to build a hospital, yeah, none have been built. It's a moot point however. We could build 1000 hospitals, but we couldn't staff them. We can barely staff the hospitals we do have. Nurses are quitting in droves. A lot have had enough, and every nurse that quits makes more work for those that remain, compounding the issue.

As for what we know now, the communities with the lowest vaccination rates are amongst the communities with the most people sick with covid and those people are straining our poorly designed healthcare system, sometimes to the brink of collapse.

So enough. Everyone should get vaccinated. Even those who get it don't end up as sick or in the ICU and that will take the strain off the system.


----------



## Altair

HiTechComms said:


> People die all the time. The state and the authority will sacrifice people for the "greater good" what ever they deem the greater good is. I just don't Pearl clutch over reality of Weak/Frail and Old dying (Not saying we should be callous about it, but reality doesn't care).
> 
> Military leaders don't pearl clutch when giving orders on objectives which may cost lives.
> 
> I grew under different political and cultural norms and to me this is not the end of the world.  It is what it is and that is all it is.


The irony here is the state is deciding to sacrifice the unvaccinated, forcing them to be shut out of society at large in order to spare the vaccinated more lockdowns.

I'm cool with that. For the greater good and all.


----------



## HiTechComms

Altair said:


> The irony here is the state is deciding to sacrifice the unvaccinated, forcing them to be shut out of society at large in order to spare the vaccinated more lockdowns.
> 
> I'm cool with that. For the greater good and all.


I am not arguing for or against.  My point still stands.  

Not my monkeys not my circus. Personally I have no skin in the game. I am just in for the ride.

On a personal note: Having said that, give me more lockdowns I made more money siting and working from home this year then I have in the previous 2. Oh and the stock market has been very good to me.


----------



## Altair

HiTechComms said:


> I am not arguing for or against.  My point still stands.
> 
> Not my monkeys not my circus. Personally I have no skin in the game. I am just in for the ride.
> 
> On a personal note: Having said that, give me more lockdowns I made more money siting and working from home this year then I have in the previous 2. Oh and the stock market has been very good to me.


I think society is ready to move pass lockdowns, which is why the vaccine passports came to be.

I was opposed to them for a long time, but after seeing every other response fail and having lockdowns occur as a result I'm hoping this is the answer.

We just don't have the ICU capacity in this country to do anything that involves higher case loads. Alberta, after increasing ICU capacity still only has 400ish icu beds and staff for 4.4 million albertans, and this is really the best system in Canada. Ontario has somewhere in the region of 800 ICU beds for 14.5 million people. If Ontario tried to do what Alberta did the system would have collapsed even more spectacularly and even quicker.

We have locked ourselves into this simply due to decades of thinking we could get by with the bare minimum and now we are paying for it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Are we comparing apples and oranges?

Swedish mortality rates








						Sweden: number of deaths 2022 | Statista
					

The number of deaths in Sweden in 2020 amounted to over 98,000.




					www.statista.com
				




Canada's

Canada: number of deaths 2020 | Statista

Swedish age demographics
0-14 years: 17.71% (male 928,413/female 878,028)

15-24 years: 10.8% (male 569,082/female 532,492)

25-54 years: 39.01% (male 2,016,991/female 1,962,617)

55-64 years: 11.9% (male 610,521/female 603,795)

65 years and over: 20.59% (male 974,410/female 1,126,142) (2020 est.)

Canada's age demographics








						Canada: population, by gender and age 2022 | Statista
					

In 2022, there were about 5.47 million males and 5.31 million females between the ages of 25 and 44 living in Canada, which was the most out of any age group.




					www.statista.com


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> Are we comparing apples and oranges?


Something something freedom...


----------



## HiTechComms

Altair said:


> I think society is ready to move pass lockdowns, which is why the vaccine passports came to be.
> 
> I was opposed to them for a long time, but after seeing every other response fail and having lockdowns occur as a result I'm hoping this is the answer.
> 
> We just don't have the ICU capacity in this country to do anything that involves higher case loads. Alberta, after increasing ICU capacity still only has 400ish icu beds and staff for 4.4 million albertans, and this is really the best system in Canada. Ontario has somewhere in the region of 800 ICU beds for 14.5 million people. If Ontario tried to do what Alberta did the system would have collapsed even more spectacularly and even quicker.
> 
> We have locked ourselves into this simply due to decades of thinking we could get by with the bare minimum and now we are paying for it.


Not sure if doubling down on pass will work either. In my home country you needed internal passports to travel, people didn't travel nor participate in a lot of things.  What ever I don't really have any issues as I don't really participate in the non essential activities. I shop online, PT outside,  remote work, don't go to restaurants, don't do concerts or movies, would get rid of my smart phone if I could. I also have another nationality so I can travel on a different passport.

One thing I hope they turn the vaxx passes into No Fat people passes. Fatties just piss me off, they are the reason our health care is on the verge of collapse. Obesity related diseases kill more people then anything else. Why should my tax money go to those that chose to stuff their pie holes endlessly. /rant off


----------



## Altair

HiTechComms said:


> Not sure if doubling down on pass will work either. In my home country you needed internal passports to travel, people didn't travel nor participate in a lot of things.  What ever I don't really have any issues as I don't really participate in the non essential activities. I shop online, PT outside,  remote work, don't go to restaurants, don't do concerts or movies, would get rid of my smart phone if I could. I also have another nationality so I can travel on a different passport.


You may not mind. A lot of people are not fans of no more restaurants, bars, pubs, movie theaters, etc.

And with proper enforcement it will eventually cost more to not participating than it benefit them to not participate.

And if people don't mind not participating in society, that's fine. They are less likely to get sick as well, so there is still a benefit to that.



HiTechComms said:


> One thing I hope they turn the vaxx passes into No Fat people passes. Fatties just piss me off, they are the reason our health care is on the verge of collapse. Obesity related diseases kill more people then anything else. Why should my tax money go to those that chose to stuff their pie holes endlessly.


Because health care is universal. Even anti vaccine individuals are getting health care. They are the ones causing the surge in people in ICUs which isn't something one can say about overweight people. Overweight people are not causing situations were the military needs to step in and help prop up provincial health care. Overweight people are not hanging out with other people and making them overweight as well prompting more take up more ICU beds.

Your comparison sucks. This is covid specific, a case where we are doing this for the greater good of a society. As someone who said they back sacrificing people for the greater good, you should be happy with recent developments


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I think it's obvious by now that a HTC is your typical Internet tough guy.  I'll be taking any future postings with a large grain of salt...


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think it's obvious by now that a HTC is your typical Internet tough guy.  I'll be taking any future postings with a large grain of salt...


Eating that much salt could cause you to be a burden on the hospital system.


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> All this money spent on this pandemic and not a single hospital to be built. Didn't Kenny get rid of bunch of beds right before this wave hit?


You’re clearly still not getting it. Physical infrastructure is not the limiting factor here. Actual beds to put a patient in or a ventilator to shove down their throat are not what the system has run out of. The issue is the highly trained and specialized staff to RUN those beds. Critical care doctors, nurses, and respiratory therapists. These are specialists, you can’t just knit more when you want them. It takes extensive training of existing doctors and nurses. The doctors and nurses who would enter that professional stream are likely doing so from other specialties already highly engaged in COVID. Add to that the mass burnout of the clinical staff that already exist. They’re facing the same thing as a profession that we did with Afghanistan, except they’ve had to go a year and a half straight.

Then on top of all of that, add provincial governments That clearly don’t take the pandemic seriously, leave public health measures to a last resort- AND have been freezing/cutting the pay of exactly those clinical specialists that the health care system lacks enough of.

Our critical care system in most provinces has surged to nearly double its original capacity. They’ve already stretched everything they can. Quality of patient care has fallen, staffing ratios have dropped, and although the provincial authorities won’t admit to triage, the reality is that people who previously would have received ICU care have not been. Surgeries have been cancelled on a massive scale. This is costing additional lives over and above those directly infected.

So: it’s not about the phantom beds that, in particular, Alberta claims to have created. Maybe they did indeed weld some additional physical beds. But they don’t have crews to staff them, which makes such claims an exercise in deception, at best.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Overweight people are not causing



Sure they are, but their needs are already built into the system.  The system we have adapts over time, which means it has adapted to handle whatever might be thought of as the baseline case load.


----------



## lenaitch

Saw this on another forum.  People might argue that Ivermectin works, but who thinks it is a good idea to consume a does that is designed for a 1000lb horse, or give it to your kid - after a vaccine - based on something you saw on the Internet.









						Calls to Alberta’s poison-control centre spike as anti-parasitic drug pushed for COVID-19 treatment
					

Alberta’s Poison and Drug Information Service (PADIS) handled 12 calls related to ivermectin between Sept. 2 and Oct. 3, according to AHS




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think it's obvious by now that a HTC is your typical Internet tough guy.  I'll be taking any future postings with a large grain of salt...


So you'd be "salty" like all those "Salty corporals"?


----------



## Jarnhamar

HiTechComms said:


> One thing I hope they turn the vaxx passes into No Fat people passes. Fatties just piss me off,



Let's see a selfie there Mr Olympia. Show us how unfat you are.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Let's see a selfie there Mr Olympia. Show us how unfat you are.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Coles Notes Version: It's official - the shit's hit the fan....


World less peaceful as civil unrest and political instability increases due to COVID-19​Today marks the launch of the 2021 edition of the Global Peace Index.


Today marks the launch of the 15th edition of the Global Peace Index from the international think-tank the Institute for Economics & Peace (IEP).​*Key results*

Civil unrest rose globally by 10%, with Belarus recording the largest deterioration. There were 14,871 violent demonstrations, protests and riots recorded globally in 2020.
Over 60% of people globally are worried about sustaining serious harm from violent crime.
Iceland remains the most peaceful country in the world, and Afghanistan the least peaceful.
Although there has been an improvement in militarisation since 2008, there are now signs that this trend has reversed.
The economic impact of violence increased in 2020 to $14.96 trillion – equivalent to 11.6% of the world’s GDP or $1,942 per person – due to increased military spending.
The death toll from terrorism has declined for the sixth consecutive year. 

Iceland remains the most peaceful country in the world, a position it has held since 2008. It is joined at the top of the index by New Zealand, Denmark, Portugal, and Slovenia. Afghanistan remains as the least peaceful country in the world for the fourth consecutive year, followed by Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, and Iraq. Eight of the ten countries at the top of the GPI are located in Europe. This is the largest share of European countries to be ranked in the top ten list in the history of the index.

The largest improvement in peacefulness occurred in the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region, which recorded significant reductions in conflict; however, it is still the least peaceful region in the world. Iraq recorded the second largest improvement globally after Ukraine. Burkina Faso experienced the biggest deterioration of any country in the world, falling 13 places.

The indicators that had the largest deteriorations in the 2021 GPI were: military expenditure (105 countries), weapons imports (90 countries), political instability (46 countries) and violent demonstrations (25 countries). The following indicators had the most improvements: terrorism (115 countries), internal conflicts fought (21 countries) and deaths from internal conflict (33 countries).

*COVID-19 highlights*

In 2020, the COVID-19 pandemic had a noticeable impact on violence, with some improvements, such as violent conflict, while other indicators deteriorated significantly including violent demonstrations. Four times as many countries deteriorated than improved.
Political instability also increased with twice as many countries deteriorating than improving.
There were widespread protests against pandemic related measures with over 5,000 events recorded globally.
Countries such as India, Chile, Italy, France, Germany, and South Africa were particularly impacted by demonstrations.
The Czech Republic, Estonia, Germany, Ireland, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Slovenia, and Switzerland are best placed for a post-COVID-19 recovery.

*Civil unrest & COVID-19*

Fuelled by the pandemic the key negative trend this year is the global rise in civil unrest.

The largest regional deterioration in peacefulness occurred in North America, due to the increased levels of political instability, homicides, and violent demonstrations. Events such as the storming of the Capitol building and widespread protests across the United States in support of the Black Lives Matter movement increased civil unrest, political instability and the intensity of internal conflict in 2020.

During the pandemic, countries with higher levels of peacefulness had more resilient economies. High Peace* countries recorded reductions of less than 7% in total hours worked, while low Peace countries recorded up to 23% according to IEP’s Business & Peace Report 2021.
The full post-pandemic recovery will not be quick or easy. It is also likely to be uneven, and countries with weak fiscal situations will find it harder than others. Equatorial Guinea, Sierra Leone, and Laos are amongst the countries considered to have the greatest risk of large falls in peacefulness.

Although Europe experienced a number of protest events last year, the region remains the most peaceful in the world; however, _political instability_ rose across the continent, along with key indicators of _Militarisation, _including _military expenditure, weapons imports, _and _nuclear and heavy weapons _capabilities.


*Militarisation and terrorism*

Global militarisation has increased over the past two years with more countries increasing military expenditure and their armed services personnel rate. This is a reversal of the trend of the prior decade where 105 countries had improved, while 57 deteriorated. The US, China, Germany and South Korea had the largest increases in military expenditure in the last two years.

The death toll for terrorism continues to decline, with total deaths from terrorism falling for the last six consecutive years. Preliminary data for 2020 suggests that less than 10,000 deaths were caused by terrorism.

Despite the total number of conflict-related deaths falling since 2014, the number of conflicts globally increased by 88% since 2010. However, new conflicts are emerging in the Sahel and the Horn of Africa with sub-Saharan Africa accounting for over 65% of total violent conflicts in the 2021 GPI. Preliminary data suggests that this trend is likely to continue.

Overall, the economic impact of violence in 2020 rose slightly to $14.96 trillion – or 11.6% of global GDP – due to an increase in global military expenditure, which rose by 3.7%. This is equivalent to $1,942 for every person on the planet.

*Violence and safety*

Violence remains a pressing issue for many people globally and is cited as the biggest risk to daily safety in almost a third of countries. Over half of the population in Afghanistan, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, and Dominican Republic reported violence as the greatest risk to their safety in their daily lives.

Despite this, some indicators of violence have recorded significant improvements since the start of the index, including _perceptions of criminality_ which has improved in 86 countries. 123 countries have seen their homicide rate fall since 2008 and people from 84 countries have stated they feel safer walking alone. Even with these improvements, data has revealed that women are 5% more fearful of violence than men – while some countries have extreme differences. In Portugal 23% of women are more fearful of violence than men.

In addition, the _Ongoing Conflict_ domain improved for the first time since 2015 and the number of deaths from conflict, both internal and external, continued to fall.









						Civil unrest and political instability increases due to COVID-19
					

World less peaceful as civil unrest and political instability increases due to COVID-19. Findings from the Global Peace Index 2021 report.




					www.visionofhumanity.org


----------



## Good2Golf

How’s Jamaica doin?

Last I heard, ‘evey’tin Erie, mon!’


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> How’s Jamaica doin?
> 
> Last I heard, ‘evey’tin Erie, mon!’



Coincidentally I met a guy who was in Jamaica recently. He's not keen to return:

2021 Investment Climate Statements: Jamaica​ 

Companies have reported that Jamaica’s high crime rate, corruption, and comparatively high taxes inhibit its investment prospects. The country’s corruption perception ranking, by Transparency International, improved marginally from 74 (2019) to 69 (2020) out of 180 countries. Despite laws that prescribe criminal penalties for corrupt acts by officials, there were still reports of government corruption in 2020, with a minister and another public official facing several criminal charges. Measures implemented to address crime continued into 2020, including the continuation of States of Emergency and Zones of Special Operations in several high crime areas of the island. While these efforts resulted in lowering serious crimes, the measures did not significantly impact the murder rate, and Jamaica continues to have one of the highest homicide rates in the world.



			https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-investment-climate-statements/jamaica/


----------



## dapaterson

Twenty years ago one of my high school teachers was murdered in Jamaica.  As a good Jesuit, he was described once as Arthur Scargill meets Opus Dei...






						MURDER IN JAMAICA - Ian Thomson
					

Fr Martin Royackers, a defiant Canadian Jesuit priest, was shot dead in his dilapidated coastal parish on 20 June 2001. Sixteen years later, the motive for his killing remains a mystery, though some believe what led to his death was his defence of the rights of the poor Father Martin Royackers...



					www.ianthomson.info


----------



## Jarnhamar

The minister who was flying back and forth during the lockdowns has a message for Canadians. 


* Don’t travel unless ‘absolutely necessary,’ Hajdu reminds Canada ahead of holiday season* 








						Don’t travel unless ‘absolutely necessary,’ Hajdu reminds Canada ahead of holiday season - National | Globalnews.ca
					

"As annoying as it is...we still have travel advisories in place recommending that people don't travel unless it's absolutely necessary," Hajdu said.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

Yep…and we also have a PM who says women should be respected…

Hypocrites.


----------



## Messerschmitt

Good2Golf said:


> Yep…and we also have a PM who says women should be respected…
> 
> Hypocrites.


And got re-elected.

Canadians 100% deserve everything that is happening. Spearheaded with the insane housing costs. Luckily I've done what is not tought in schools (financing and how to invest vs gender studies and critical race) and I'm not affected at all. I hope housing prices double and interest rises ten fold. I paid my mortage in full after the first 5 year term. 

#support Trudeau! ✌️✌️


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> And got re-elected.


Apparently with the support of women.



> In the latest nightly tracking data for CTV News and The Globe and Mail that was released Friday, the Liberals had the most support among Canadian females, with 37.1 per cent versus 29.6 per cent among males, while the Conservatives had 26.5 per cent support among females versus a whopping 40.7 per cent among males.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Apparently with the support of women.


----------



## QV

Don’t worry, it’s not about the money. 









						Anti-Covid Drugs Are Coming, But At What Cost?
					

The possibility of a new drug to ward off the most serious symptoms of Covid-19 is welcome news, but it may come with two important costs.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Don’t worry, it’s not about the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Covid Drugs Are Coming, But At What Cost?
> 
> 
> The possibility of a new drug to ward off the most serious symptoms of Covid-19 is welcome news, but it may come with two important costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


The article didn’t actually say that it’s not about the money.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> The article didn’t actually say that it’s not about the money.


The article highlights examples of exorbitant drug costs. Don’t worry Remius. Big Pharma only thinks about our safety, exorbitant drug costs along with forced limited choice via lobbying to government are not a thing and would never happen in this pandemic. Our elected politicians, like Trudeau, and millionaire pharmaceutical execs only want what’s best for you, with a reasonable profit margin of course. 

India‘s drug kit for COVID (which includes “horse paste”): $27/person
Merck’s new COVID drug: $700/ person

edit: I’m sure there would never be any undue influence.. Health Canada switches to mainly pharmaceutical funding - DATAC


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> The article highlights examples of exorbitant drug costs. Don’t worry Remius. Big Pharma only thinks about our safety, exorbitant drug costs along with forced limited choice via lobbying to government are not a thing and would never happen in this pandemic. Our elected politicians, like Trudeau, and millionaire pharmaceutical execs only want what’s best for you, with a reasonable profit margin of course.
> 
> India‘s drug kit for COVID (which includes “horse paste”): $27/person
> Merck’s new COVID drug: $700/ person
> 
> edit: I’m sure there would never be any undue influence.. Health Canada switches to mainly pharmaceutical funding - DATAC


So the issue is what appears to be an unregulated industry.  Free markets and capitalism right?


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> So the issue is what appears to be an unregulated industry.  Free markets and capitalism right?


Corruption and cronyism... you ok with that?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Corruption and cronyism... you ok with that?


Answering a question with a question eh? 

No. 

So more oversight and regulations then?


----------



## Remius

We’ll this explains a lot…









						How an Online Pharmacy Sold Millions Worth Of Ivermectin
					

TIME investigates how a company with a history of criminal behavior secured taxpayer funds to distribute dubious drugs




					time.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

I don't know if I can classify myself as 'surprised' yet. or not...

Failed deal with China delayed made-in-Canada COVID-19 vaccine plans​​Officials wasted months, spent millions on a lab that never produced a single shot​

The federal government's failed collaboration with a vaccine manufacturing company in China early in the pandemic has led to a delay of nearly two years in efforts to create a made-in-Canada COVID-19 vaccine.

Government documents obtained by _The Fifth Estate_ show that Canadian officials wasted months waiting for a proposed vaccine to arrive from China for further testing and spent millions upgrading a production facility that never made a single dose of COVID-19 vaccine. 

The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) signed an agreement with Tianjin-based CanSino Biologics in early May 2020 to "fast-track the availability of a COVID-19 vaccine in Canada for emergency pandemic use."

The CanSino vaccine, which had been created by the scientific research arm of China's military, was to be shipped to Canada for human trials that May. If successful, the vaccine was to be manufactured at a temporary facility in Montreal that the NRC had committed $44 million to upgrade.

The documents reveal that the NRC, the scientific research arm of the Canadian government, was gearing up for production of the vaccine — even before the contract was signed and human trials had started — estimating it could be manufacturing doses by summer 2020.

At first, the NRC would be producing doses for human trials in Canada, then later, according to the contract, "for front-line responders and Canadians as soon as they are available."

"Once fully operational, in the event that CanSino proceeds, NRC will be able to produce 70,000 to 100,000 doses per month," the NRC briefs said.

The NRC asked Dr. Scott Halperin, director of the Canadian Center of Vaccinology in Halifax, to design the clinical trials for CanSino in Canada.

"The NRC and CanSino had previous collaborations well before the pandemic," Halperin said in an interview with _The Fifth Estate_. "That was leveraged into a working relationship to say: 'Can that be expanded for the current crisis?' "

Vaccine stuck in China​ 
As the months progressed, the documents also show that the NRC was working to increase the number of doses the facility could produce for the public.

But ultimately, the CanSino vaccine would never get to Canada.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the deal to Canadians on May 16, 2020. But a federal government memo later that same month reveals the Canadian Embassy in Beijing was still working to get the vaccine cleared by China's customs.

"CanSino vaccines are still with customs in China," the memo said. "Embassy has a [meeting] tomorrow. Assuming they get through customs [tomorrow], they can be put on a flight on the 27th."

But the vaccine candidate was not put on a plane on May 27.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cansino-deal-canada-nrc-fifth-estate-1.6208241?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_


----------



## MilEME09

Read as China boned us as usual trying to use vaccine and PPE as bargaining chips


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> I don't know if I can classify myself as 'surprised' yet. or not...
> 
> Failed deal with China delayed made-in-Canada COVID-19 vaccine plans​​Officials wasted months, spent millions on a lab that never produced a single shot​
> 
> The federal government's failed collaboration with a vaccine manufacturing company in China early in the pandemic has led to a delay of nearly two years in efforts to create a made-in-Canada COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> Government documents obtained by _The Fifth Estate_ show that Canadian officials wasted months waiting for a proposed vaccine to arrive from China for further testing and spent millions upgrading a production facility that never made a single dose of COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) signed an agreement with Tianjin-based CanSino Biologics in early May 2020 to "fast-track the availability of a COVID-19 vaccine in Canada for emergency pandemic use."
> 
> The CanSino vaccine, which had been created by the scientific research arm of China's military, was to be shipped to Canada for human trials that May. If successful, the vaccine was to be manufactured at a temporary facility in Montreal that the NRC had committed $44 million to upgrade.
> 
> The documents reveal that the NRC, the scientific research arm of the Canadian government, was gearing up for production of the vaccine — even before the contract was signed and human trials had started — estimating it could be manufacturing doses by summer 2020.
> 
> At first, the NRC would be producing doses for human trials in Canada, then later, according to the contract, "for front-line responders and Canadians as soon as they are available."
> 
> "Once fully operational, in the event that CanSino proceeds, NRC will be able to produce 70,000 to 100,000 doses per month," the NRC briefs said.
> 
> The NRC asked Dr. Scott Halperin, director of the Canadian Center of Vaccinology in Halifax, to design the clinical trials for CanSino in Canada.
> 
> "The NRC and CanSino had previous collaborations well before the pandemic," Halperin said in an interview with _The Fifth Estate_. "That was leveraged into a working relationship to say: 'Can that be expanded for the current crisis?' "
> 
> Vaccine stuck in China​
> As the months progressed, the documents also show that the NRC was working to increase the number of doses the facility could produce for the public.
> 
> But ultimately, the CanSino vaccine would never get to Canada.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the deal to Canadians on May 16, 2020. But a federal government memo later that same month reveals the Canadian Embassy in Beijing was still working to get the vaccine cleared by China's customs.
> 
> "CanSino vaccines are still with customs in China," the memo said. "Embassy has a [meeting] tomorrow. Assuming they get through customs [tomorrow], they can be put on a flight on the 27th."
> 
> But the vaccine candidate was not put on a plane on May 27.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cansino-deal-canada-nrc-fifth-estate-1.6208241?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Morning_1613_


I'm not sure I understand. 

Are they saying the facility could have made MRNA vaccines if Canada wasn't tied up with sinovac?

or AstraZeneca?

Because I still don't see how we just revive overnight a dormant vaccine manufacturing sector.


----------



## mariomike

> Thank God I'm retired so I don't have to work along side a non-vaccinated person.



 "Non-vaccinated persons" won't be around where I used to work after 1 Nov.

For years now, they also have to be vaccinated for influenza.


----------



## QV

oh…



			https://ago.nebraska.gov/sites/ago.nebraska.gov/files/docs/opinions/21-017_0.pdf


----------



## OceanBonfire

Surface transmission extremely low based on a new study:



> ...
> 
> “These results suggest that the risk of exposure from contaminated high-touch surfaces within a food retailer store is low,” the study concluded, adding that this is contingent on the upkeep of sanitation routines, social distancing and monitoring of employee health.
> 
> Corradini notes that earlier studies on surface transmission were conducted in labs where variables like temperature, humidity and viral load were controlled.
> 
> By contrast, in her study she wanted to look at the risk of surface transmission in real-world settings that people would encounter in their everyday lives.
> 
> In order to get the virus via surface transmission a combination of events has to “align perfectly,” she said. “It doesn’t happen often, but it can, but the probability is very low.”











						Hundreds of samples from Ontario grocery stores examined for coronavirus; all test negative
					

A new study tested more than 900 samples from high-touch surfaces in Ontario grocery stores for SARS-CoV-2 and found zero positive results, suggesting the risk of exposure to the virus in grocery stores is low.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## QV

OceanBonfire said:


> Surface transmission extremely low based on a new study:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of samples from Ontario grocery stores examined for coronavirus; all test negative
> 
> 
> A new study tested more than 900 samples from high-touch surfaces in Ontario grocery stores for SARS-CoV-2 and found zero positive results, suggesting the risk of exposure to the virus in grocery stores is low.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca












						COVID-19 rarely spreads through surfaces. So why are we still deep cleaning?
					

The coronavirus behind the pandemic can linger on doorknobs and other surfaces, but these aren’t a major source of infection.




					www.nature.com


----------



## dapaterson

A new thing to worry about: As air travel ramps up again, pilots are out of practice and are making mistakes - like only starting one engine, or forgetting to lower the landing gear on approach.









						Out-of-practice airline pilots make errors as they return to work
					

Concerns are growing that a lack of proficiency, confidence, or simply one moment of forgetfulness could lead to tragedy




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:


> A new thing to worry about: As air travel ramps up again, pilots are out of practice and are making mistakes - like only starting one engine, or forgetting to lower the landing gear on approach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out-of-practice airline pilots make errors as they return to work
> 
> 
> Concerns are growing that a lack of proficiency, confidence, or simply one moment of forgetfulness could lead to tragedy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawacitizen.com


Just a question from a crayon eater - do pilots not have Checklists? 

You know like start engine one, start engine two etc??


----------



## SeaKingTacco

OldSolduer said:


> Just a question from a crayon eater - do pilots not have Checklists?
> 
> You know like start engine one, start engine two etc??


Yes, but you have actually follow them.


----------



## OldSolduer

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yes, but you have actually follow them.


Right - gotcha 😂


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yes, but you have actually follow them.


And since most pilots are still men....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh my God yes.... please go back to work everyone:


Economist, former federal adviser urges Ottawa to ignore business lobby, close wage subsidy​

Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland said last week that she was consulting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, government policy experts and business leaders on whether to suspend pandemic programs.

A Canadian economist who has served as a social policy adviser to the federal government says Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland should ignore the business lobby’s advice to the contrary and close the federal wage subsidy.

With an estimated total cost of $ 111 billion, the Canada Emergency Law Subsidy (CEWS) has been the largest single element of Ottawa’s $ 286 billion in direct support measures during the COVID-19 pandemic. The subsidy provides money directly to companies whose income has suffered during the pandemic, to cover part of their employees’ salaries.

The program has been adjusted and expanded several times. The latest enlargement, approved just before the federal election campaign, the grant expiration date moved to October 23rd.


“The Treasury Department should not extend Canada’s emergency aid. Time has passed, ”said Miles Corak, a professor at the City University of New York’s Department of Economics, who this week published a paper claiming that CEWS was poorly designed and should not be renewed.

Prof. Corak specializes in the analysis of federal work support programs such as Employment Insurance (EI), and he spent time in 2017 as an economist on a residency with the Federal Department of Employment and Social Development.

The paper was reviewed by other academics who have provided economic policy advice to the federal government in recent years, including Kevin Milligan of the University of British Columbia and Jennifer Robson of Carleton University.

Other pandemic assistance programs scheduled to expire on October 23 include a rent subsidy program for businesses as well as several programs that provide financial assistance directly to individuals who are unable to work for reasons related to COVID-19.

Ms Freeland told reporters last week that she had consulted with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, government policy experts and business leaders
on whether they would end the programs.

The minister’s office said in a statement Monday that the government “will soon announce the next steps.”









						Economist, former federal adviser urges Ottawa to ignore business lobby, close wage subsidy
					





					awsforwp.com


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh my God yes.... please go back to work everyone:
> 
> 
> Economist, former federal adviser urges Ottawa to ignore business lobby, close wage subsidy​
> 
> Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland said last week that she was consulting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, government policy experts and business leaders on whether to suspend pandemic programs.
> 
> A Canadian economist who has served as a social policy adviser to the federal government says Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland should ignore the business lobby’s advice to the contrary and close the federal wage subsidy.
> 
> With an estimated total cost of $ 111 billion, the Canada Emergency Law Subsidy (CEWS) has been the largest single element of Ottawa’s $ 286 billion in direct support measures during the COVID-19 pandemic. The subsidy provides money directly to companies whose income has suffered during the pandemic, to cover part of their employees’ salaries.
> 
> The program has been adjusted and expanded several times. The latest enlargement, approved just before the federal election campaign, the grant expiration date moved to October 23rd.
> 
> 
> “The Treasury Department should not extend Canada’s emergency aid. Time has passed, ”said Miles Corak, a professor at the City University of New York’s Department of Economics, who this week published a paper claiming that CEWS was poorly designed and should not be renewed.
> 
> Prof. Corak specializes in the analysis of federal work support programs such as Employment Insurance (EI), and he spent time in 2017 as an economist on a residency with the Federal Department of Employment and Social Development.
> 
> The paper was reviewed by other academics who have provided economic policy advice to the federal government in recent years, including Kevin Milligan of the University of British Columbia and Jennifer Robson of Carleton University.
> 
> Other pandemic assistance programs scheduled to expire on October 23 include a rent subsidy program for businesses as well as several programs that provide financial assistance directly to individuals who are unable to work for reasons related to COVID-19.
> 
> Ms Freeland told reporters last week that she had consulted with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, government policy experts and business leaders
> on whether they would end the programs.
> 
> The minister’s office said in a statement Monday that the government “will soon announce the next steps.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Economist, former federal adviser urges Ottawa to ignore business lobby, close wage subsidy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> awsforwp.com


How does getting rid of the wage subsidy get people back to work?

It just means companies need to pay the full wage now and depending on how their business is doing due to the pandemic, they may be forced to lay off staff.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> How does getting rid of the wage subsidy get people back to work?
> 
> It just means companies need to pay the full wage now and depending on how their business is doing due to the pandemic, they may be forced to lay off staff.



When they don't get free money they will need to earn it some way... Onlyfans anyone ? 

What's a full wage ?


----------



## Messerschmitt

QV said:


> Don’t worry, it’s not about the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Covid Drugs Are Coming, But At What Cost?
> 
> 
> The possibility of a new drug to ward off the most serious symptoms of Covid-19 is welcome news, but it may come with two important costs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


It's never about the money









						HealthEconomics.Com - Pfizer Executive Confident in COVID-19 Vaccine Price Increase, $175 per Dose Possible
					

Pfizer CFO Frank D’Amelio spoke about the outlook for the company’s COVID-19 vaccine. He’s confident that the current price of $19.50 per dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine will increase as the pandemic slows to reach prices of other vaccines—around $150 to $175 per dose. He also notes that...




					www.healtheconomics.com
				




Oh, but when I posted this back in March on reddit I was anti vaxer.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

OceanBonfire said:


> Surface transmission extremely low based on a new study:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hundreds of samples from Ontario grocery stores examined for coronavirus; all test negative
> 
> 
> A new study tested more than 900 samples from high-touch surfaces in Ontario grocery stores for SARS-CoV-2 and found zero positive results, suggesting the risk of exposure to the virus in grocery stores is low.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


Old news. CDC was saying something similar back in January.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Retired AF Guy said:


> Old news. CDC was saying something similar back in January.











						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				




"However, *experimental conditions* on both porous and non-porous surfaces do not necessarily reflect real-world conditions...", "In fact, *laboratory studies* try to optimize the recovery of viruses from surfaces..."

Versus Maria Corradini's study (Re-quoting): "Corradini notes that earlier studies on surface transmission were conducted in labs where variables like temperature, humidity and viral load were controlled.

By contrast, in her study she wanted to look at the risk of surface transmission in real-world settings that people would encounter in their everyday lives."


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> When they don't get free money they will need to earn it some way... Onlyfans anyone ?
> 
> What's a full wage ?


LOL you do have a sense of humour - I was kinda worried for a bit.

Every social activist wants the minimum wage increased. NEWS FLASH - minimum wage is an entry level wage and not meant to live on. It's a stepping stone. 
Increase the minimum wage, companies hire less staff, more unemployment, more taxes.


----------



## Blackadder1916

OldSolduer said:


> Every social activist wants the minimum wage increased. NEWS FLASH - minimum wage is an entry level wage and not meant to live on. It's a stepping stone.
> Increase the minimum wage, companies hire less staff, more unemployment, more taxes.



Then it is interesting that the latest winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics received it for research that challenges that conventional wisdom.









						Canadian-born David Card among 3 winners of Nobel in economics | RCI
					

Research challenged views on effect of minimum wage, immigration on jobs




					ici.radio-canada.ca
				





> A Canadian economist based in the U.S. won the Nobel prize for economics Monday for pioneering research that showed an increase in minimum wage does not lead to less hiring and immigrants do not lower pay for native-born workers, challenging commonly held ideas. . . .


----------



## Jarnhamar

Navy SEALs seeking religious exemptions to vaccine mandate facing intimidation and harassment, sources say
					

EXCLUSIVE: A growing number of U.S. Navy SEALs who are seeking a religious exemption to the Defense Department's COVID-19 vaccine mandate are being threatened and, in some cases, harassed into submission, Fox News has learned.




					www.foxnews.com
				




Sounds like there's also talk about threatening US Navy SEALs to pay back the money it cost to train them.


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Sounds like there's also talk about threatening US Navy SEALs to pay back the money it cost to train them.



Not just the SEALS: Sailors who refuse COVID-19 vaccine could have to repay bonuses

“Anytime a sailor enters into an agreement for special pay, they sign a contract that explains they are subject to repayment if they fail to fulfill the terms of the contract,” said Lt. Travis Callaghan, a spokesman for the Chief of Naval Personnel.


----------



## mariomike

From what I have read, it's not just the USN going for religious exemption.









						Religious exemptions threaten to undermine US Covid vaccine mandates
					

In California, hundreds of public employees make claims as Christian legal group offers template exemption letter




					www.theguardian.com
				




Some "vaccine hesitancy" in emergency services,









						Police union boss slammed for comparing vaccine mandate to Holocaust
					

After FOP president John Catanzara compared the vaccine mandate for city employees to Nazi Germany, the mayor, Jewish groups and even a Chicago cop called his comments offensive.




					chicago.suntimes.com


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> When they don't get free money they will need to earn it some way... Onlyfans anyone ?
> 
> What's a full wage ?


I think you're confusing the CERB replacement for the wage subsidies.

Unless you think that a restaurant will be on onlyfans shaking its sausages and hot buns for money.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> LOL you do have a sense of humour - I was kinda worried for a bit.
> 
> Every social activist wants the minimum wage increased. NEWS FLASH - minimum wage is an entry level wage and not meant to live on. It's a stepping stone.
> Increase the minimum wage, companies hire less staff, more unemployment, more taxes.


I don't get why people are equating the wage subsidies to minimum wage.

The wage subsidies is the Feds giving corporations money to offset employees salaries because those businesses are suffering from reduced income due to covid.

End it and watch corporations either go belly up or lay off untold amounts of workers as the response to reduced income.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> I don't get why people are equating the wage subsidies to minimum wage.
> 
> The wage subsidies is the Feds giving corporations money to offset employees salaries because those businesses are suffering from reduced income due to covid.
> 
> End it and watch corporations either go belly up or lay off untold amounts of workers as the response to reduced income.


How about set the conditions so the business can flourish rather than continue the conditions that have them go belly up without government subsidies.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> How about set the conditions so the business can flourish rather than continue the conditions that have them go belly up without government subsidies.


Maybe because, I dunno, covid?


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Maybe because, I dunno, covid?


Uh no, entirely government intervention did that. They didn't have to go that far. 

Lets see how the declared climate emergency and the incoming government meddling on that front adds to our present situation. Do you think that will help or hinder our economic prosperity? How do you think a tanked economy affects social program spending?


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> Uh no, entirely government intervention did that. They didn't have to go that far.


By government intervention,  are you talking lockdowns? Because those are provincial decisions. 

And when a business is working under lockdown conditions, many faced reduced incomes as a result. In order to assist these businesses the Feds helped to pay for workers salaries.

That's what is being removed. So now instead of reduced incomes but reduced salary expenses, they are looking at reduced income and increased salary expenses.

Now what happens to businesses when faced with this problem? Right, layoffs or closing up shop.

Not exactly people getting back to work like @daftandbarmy alluded to.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Then it is interesting that the latest winners of the Nobel Prize in Economics received it for research that challenges that conventional wisdom.



The award was for research methods (ie. "natural experiments"), not conclusions.  The popular (political) claims made for Card/Krueger's study are not the same as the much more limited, hedged claims in the study itself.  The conventional wisdom on minimum wage is still that raising it costs some people employment hours or entire jobs.

Wage subsidies are not the same thing and can't be prolonged at a massive scale.  Since some supply chains are functioning poorly right now, politicians should get out of the way and let price and wage signals work without impediment so that success is rewarded and failure is not.


----------



## brihard

Seeking a repayment of cost of training and allowances is bullshit. They did their duty under the conditions applicable at the time.

Religious exemptions to the vaccine are also largely bullshit. It’s a dodge being used by those who want to avoid the consequence of their choices. I’ve yet to see a single credible religious objection backed by anything more than the individual’s own opinion. A number of major organized religions have come out and said “yeah, no, we’re good with this.” The Vatican has a vaccine mandate, for crying out loud.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Wage subsidies are not the same thing and can't be prolonged at a massive scale.  Since some supply chains are functioning poorly right now, politicians should get out of the way and let price and wage signals work without impediment so that success is rewarded and failure is not.


If a business like a restaurant is forced to operate at half capacity or takeout only, and fails as a result, you are making it sound like its that restaurants owners fault.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Seeking a repayment of cost of training and allowances is bullshit. They did their duty under the conditions applicable at the time.
> 
> Religious exemptions to the vaccine are also largely bullshit. It’s a dodge being used by those who want to avoid the consequence of their choices. I’ve yet to see a single credible religious objection backed by anything more than the individual’s own opinion. A number of major organized religions have come out and said “yeah, no, we’re good with this.” The Vatican has a vaccine mandate, for crying out loud.


A lot of people are not dogmatic when it comes to organized religion.

Its a lot harder to argue someone on their specific interpretation of religion. Nor, might I add, is that something I imagine many want to do. Going down that rabbit hole leads to nothing good.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> If a business like a restaurant is forced to operate at half capacity or takeout only, and fails as a result, you are making it sound like its that restaurants owners fault.



Success and failure are just outcomes.  A person with right intentions, using right means, to seek right ends, can still fail.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Success and failure are just outcomes.  A person with right intentions, using right means, to seek right ends, can still fail.


I personally don't have a problem with government providing solutions to conditions they are partially responsible for creating.

While they didn't cause the pandemic, the public health directives in response are harming businesses and business owners, through no fault of their own. Its best to do what we can to keep these businesses open, and workers at work. Especially if the alternative is even more businesses failing and more people on unemployment.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I personally don't have a problem with government providing solutions to conditions they are partially responsible for creating.



Subsidies are band-aids, not solutions.  Shotgun distribution of payouts was reasonable in early days when something needed to happen more quickly than customary government processes were capable of, but that time is past.  Subsidies, like most forms of protectionism, militate a well-functioning economy.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Subsidies are band-aids, not solutions.  Shotgun distribution of payouts was reasonable in early days when something needed to happen more quickly than customary government processes were capable of, but that time is past.  Subsidies, like most forms of protectionism, militate a well-functioning economy.


The solution is for Covid 19 to be under control so that public health measures are no longer needed.  As Alberta demonstrated to the rest of the nation in stark detail, we are not there yet.  So as long as the solution is unattainable, band aids will be required.

No point in pulling off the band air while the patient is still bleeding.


----------



## QV

If you leave a bandage on for too long it will get dirty and the wound will fester. Time to rip it off and air out the wound.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> If you leave a bandage on for too long it will get dirty and the wound will fester. Time to rip it off and air out the wound.


Thank goodness you're not a doctor. 

Doctor 1: Lets close them up.

Doctor 2: But they are still suffering from massive internal bleeding!

Doctor 1: Yeah, but we have been trying to fix them for a few hours now, lets stop now and if they live they live, if they die they die.

Doctor 2: But if we stop, we know they will die!

Doctor 1: Meant to be I guess.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> The solution is for Covid 19 to be under control so that public health measures are no longer needed.



We have public health measures for flu, so I suppose public health measures of some kind will always be needed.  Setting an unattainable aim is idiotic.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> We have public health measures for flu, so I suppose public health measures of some kind will always be needed.  Setting an unattainable aim is idiotic.


Covid is not the flu.

Covid pushed Alberta to the brink, and before that Ontario, and before that Quebec. So its less about unattainable aims than it is surviving the pandemic.

So long as public health measures are in place making it so businesses are running with a reduced income framework, I support measures keeping them afloat with things like wage subsidies. When, and only when public health measures are gone (and its safe to do so without crashing the healthcare system) and they are allowed to run with no restrictions would I support cutting all supports.

Especially at this point. Imagine spending billions keeping these businesses afloat only to pull the rug on them at this point and having them fail. What would have been the point in keeping them afloat for 18 months?


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Covid is not the flu.  It sure is close
> 
> Covid pushed Alberta to the brink,  Sensationalism, and I'm being charitable.


----------



## Altair

@QV If you need to send your patients to other provinces and call in military assistance you're at or past the brink


----------



## OldSolduer

So the RCMP arrested this pastor last night:









						Manitoba pastor arrested for breaking public health orders: RCMP
					

The pastor of a church near Steinbach, Man. remains in custody after RCMP said he was arrested on an outstanding warrant for breaking public health orders.




					winnipeg.ctvnews.ca
				




He got released on bail this afternoon with conditions.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The point is that COVID is unlikely to ever be so very much "under control" that no public health measures will be needed.  At the least, I expect seasonal boosters - just like with flu - to be part of the public health measures.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> The point is that COVID is unlikely to ever be so very much "under control" that no public health measures will be needed.  At the least, I expect seasonal boosters - just like with flu - to be part of the public health measures.


Most influenza pandemics burn out eventually.


----------



## lenaitch

Quote:
_Covid is not the flu. It sure is close

Covid pushed Alberta to the brink, Sensationalism, and I'm being charitable._



Well, there's this:

_"Patients admitted to hospital in Ontario with COVID-19 had a 3.5 times greater risk of death, 1.5 times greater use of the ICU, and 1.5 times longer hospital stays than patients admitted with influenza.”_​








						Definitely not the flu: risk of death from COVID-19 3.5 times higher than from flu - Hospital News
					

A new study published in CMAJ (Canadian Medical Association Journal) found that the risk of death from COVID-19 was 3.5 times higher than from influenza. “We can now say definitively that COVID-19 is much more severe than seasonal influenza,” says Dr. Amol Verma, St. Michael’s Hospital, Unity...




					hospitalnews.com
				




and this:

_"Hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in the Veterans Health Administration had a more than five times higher risk for in-hospital death and increased risk for 17 respiratory and nonrespiratory complications than did hospitalized patients with influenza."_​








						Risk for In-Hospital Complications Associated with ...
					

This report describes the in-hospital death rate of hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in the Veterans Health Administration compared with that of patients with influenza.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Most influenza pandemics burn out eventually.



Pretty much all "burn out" in the sense that they come and go, usually seasonally, but flu is endemic.  So mitigation is ongoing.  COVID is endemic, so mitigation will be ongoing.  So no point setting foolishly unattainable goals which become excuses for perpetually crippling restrictions.


----------



## HiTechComms

Brad Sallows said:


> Pretty much all "burn out" in the sense that they come and go, usually seasonally, but flu is endemic.  So mitigation is ongoing.  COVID is endemic, so mitigation will be ongoing.  So no point setting foolishly unattainable goals which become excuses for perpetually crippling restrictions.


Isn't the reason why people join the Military.. They enjoy the crippling restrictions and eventual burnout but sign the extension eventually because Pension 


/Joke Attempted


----------



## brihard

I don't think anyone is seriously talking about retaining any degree of restrictions any longer than is necessary to preserve the capacity of the healthcare system to handle critical cases.  It has always been the risk that the kid mangled in a car crash m ight not get an ICU bed that has justified this. The only reason that has not happened in several (most?) provinces is because of the resort to significant restrictions on contacts and mobility.  For the most part,t hen provincial panels of epidemiological experts have released modeling, cases have pretty much tracked what they said would happen if the steps they recommended were taken. And, in the infamous instances of Ontario last spring saying "We want to wait and see if the modeling bears out first before enacting further restrictions" - it did. That was almost catastrophic, because while Ontario can absorb ICU cases from other smaller provinces, there would have been little opportunity for Ontario to transfer out.

Viruses tend to mutate towards less virulence. It's simple selective pressure; the worse the virus is, the more we act to limit spread, and the less opportunity it has to spread. Covid has been a right bastard in that it started out bad enough to be a huge problem once the law of large numbers applies, but not bad enough to be scary enough to a lot of people to take it seriously. People are afraid of something gross that makes them bleed out like Ebola; they aren't as individually afraid of the prospect of needing an ICU bed and not getting one. Because COVID has been able to spread so massively, and has faced partial resistance in the form of public health measures, it's had a plethora of opportunities to face selective pressures, stimulating the evolution of trickier variants. That's still continuing.

I suspect we'll see this move in the direction of the flu shot. As a public health measure, a voluntary routine inoculation to part of the population is sort of like the control rods in a reactor. Those of us who choose to get it will help to lessen the risk for those who do. Just like how flu still puts a bunch of people in hospital each year and kills some, but isn't bad enough to threaten the system in toto like Covid has.

Something like 90% of those eligible in Ontario (12+) now have their first shot, nearly all will presumably get the second. Boosters are becoming available for the most vulnerable, and it looks like there will likely be vaccines for children soon. I think that this fourth wave will probably represent the final 'petering out' of the dangerous part of the epidemic in Canada, unless a new variant emerges that consistently escapes existing immunity conferred by vaccination or prior infection. IF that happens it'll suck. But so far the vaccines have been faring generally well - probably well enough - against variants. I'm cautiously optimistic we're nearing the end of the worst of this.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Pretty much all "burn out" in the sense that they come and go, usually seasonally, but flu is endemic.  So mitigation is ongoing.  COVID is endemic, so mitigation will be ongoing.  So no point setting foolishly unattainable goals which become excuses for perpetually crippling restrictions.


Oh yes, I forget about the annual Spanish flu wave...

In all seriousness the 1918 1957, 1969, and 2009 influenza pandemics all eventually lost steam and died off allowing society to go back to normal. They didn't in large part become endemic.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Flu is not endemic here...that's one for the ages.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Flu is not endemic here...that's one for the ages.


The spanish flu was a strain of influenza that ran its course. Same as Covid 19 is a strain of influenza that will run its course.

But  the spanish flu isn't killing 50 million people a year in waves, and thus that strain is not endemic.

Unless you believe that the spanish flu strain of influenza is widely circulating killing 50 million people a year?


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Flu is not endemic here...that's one for the ages.


There are many different variants of influenza. 'Spanish Flu' was an H1N1 type; we've seen it crop up a few times since, but it's not a regular. When is does crop up (e.g., 2009 'Swine Flu'), that's normally a crappy year. 

Influenza, broadly, is endemic- normally emerging out of pig or poultry populations in Asia, mutating to a human transmissible form, and then circling the globe. They try to catch it in the early phase, make an educated guess of which strains are most likely to 'go human', and formulate flu vaccines based on that. Usually works, sometimes they miss.

Any one specific type of influenza is not necessarily endemic. Some types present more danger than others. I'm not qualified to say why.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> @QV If you need to send your patients to other provinces and call in military assistance you're at or past the brink


"We're sending in the Military!" ~ _8 people arrive_....  I bet the province fired or retired more healthcare staff in a single day than what the "military assistance" amounted to.  But the soundbite sure sounds good and the timing was superb. 

Note there was no mention of all the patients in Alberta hospitals (from all kinds of medical issues) from neighboring provinces when Alberta was apparently begging to send theirs out of province.   

For a healthcare system "on the brink" and so short staffed, I'm watching with interest for the outcome when they fire (sorry LWOP) all those not participating in the mandatory vaccine. The Quebec situation is a signal how that could turnout here (ok ok you have another month, or else!)


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> Isn't the reason why people join the Military.. They enjoy the crippling restrictions and eventual burnout but sign the extension eventually because Pension
> 
> 
> /Joke Attempted


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> "We're sending in the Military!" ~ _8 people arrive_....  I bet the province fired or retired more healthcare staff in a single day than what the "military assistance" amounted to.  But the soundbite sure sounds good and the timing was superb.


Yes, why else would the Alberta government need to make a announcement that they were requesting help from military in the middle of a election campaign?

The Feds cannot send in the military unilaterally, the province needed to ask for it, probably because it was needed.


QV said:


> Note there was no mention of all the patients in Alberta hospitals (from all kinds of medical issues) from neighboring provinces when Alberta was apparently begging to send theirs out of province.


There was no mention because it didn't matter at that point. When the hospitals are about to collapse and start denying care because their capacity was all accounted for, it matters little how they got into the situation, just that they were in it.

and it was covid doing that. Not a flu. They are not comparable.

The rest of your post is not worth commenting on.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Flu" is a generic reference to all strains of influenza, just as "COVID-19" is a generic reference to all strains of COVID 19 ("delta", etc).  Nit-picking isn't going to make either one of them any less endemic.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> "Flu" is a generic reference to all strains of influenza, just as "COVID-19" is a generic reference to all strains of COVID 19 ("delta", etc).  Nit-picking isn't going to make either one of them any less endemic.



That's not an accurate comparison at all. The respective variants of COVID are much more closely related to each other that the varying strains of flu, as evidenced by the fact that COVID vaccines or prior infections appear to confer immunity to all current variants, while a flu shot covers a couple, but only a couple of the strains that are out there. There is much greater genetic variation between various H#N# types of Influenza than there are between different COVID variants.

SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes the COVID-19 disease, is one of many different types of coronavirus. Think of 'SARS-CoV-2' (or COVID-19) as akin to H1N1 Influenza A, and 'Coronavirus' as akin to 'influenza'. It's still a crude analogy, but much closer to useful equivalence.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Agreed.  It matters how much to dealing with endemic COVID ?


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Agreed.  It matters how much to dealing with endemic COVID ?


It remains to be seen whether COVID in its recognizable current form will go endemic, or if it will either flame out or mutate to the point where, though it goes endemic, it's no longer particularly dangerous. So we can't tell yet.


----------



## brihard

On another note: A judge in Manitoba has ruled that the province's COVID restrictions were not a breach of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Though there were limitations on Charter rights, they were found to be reasonable in the larger context.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-churches-charter-challenge-covid-decision-1.6217925
		


This is the action that was brought by seven churches last year. So far as I can tell, this is probably the biggest court case decided so far regarding the lawfulness of emergency powers and restrictions linked to COVID.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> It remains to be seen whether COVID in its recognizable current form will go endemic



Is there an objective definition of when this will be deemed to have happened?

Suppose that "as long as COVID is not endemic, restrictions (rights infringements) and economic support will continue."  I predict COVID will remain among us, yet will never be declared endemic.

Past time to think about ways to surge ICU capacity without throwing up our hands and blowing up healthy economic activity whenever habitual 70-90% utilization is pressed above 100%.  This round caught everyone napping with happy assumptions; such a capability is likely to be needed, sometime, maybe sooner than we think.  The economic disruption that can be achieved by malicious release of a relatively mild virus will not have escaped notice.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> "We're sending in the Military!" ~ _8 people arrive_....  I bet the province fired or retired more healthcare staff in a single day than what the "military assistance" amounted to.  But the soundbite sure sounds good and the timing was superb.



"8 people arrive"

And that was, approximately, the number that I expected when I heard Premier Kenney requesting federal assistance for personnel qualified to staff ICUs.   Remember, the CAF no longer operates any hospitals in Canada though they do have staff at units established in civilian facilities across Canada (including in Alberta).  It is likely that they continued to work within those civilian facilities (including in ICUs) during the pandemic; if they were removed to be sent elsewhere then those hospitals would have to be backfilled.  That the military was able to find eight critical care trained (hopefully experienced and currently up-to-date) nurses was (to my dated experience) a little surprising, but the emphasis on military nurses being CC trained has changed much in the 37+ years since I last worked in the ICU at NDMC (an eight bed unit - the only one in a CF hospital that was fully staffed and operational 24/7/365).

But if the number is "8", why are there "9" in the group?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:


> But if the number is "8", why are there "9" in the group?
> 
> View attachment 66837



Oh, I'll go!

Because one is an Officer and therefore doesn't count?


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Yes, why else would the Alberta government need to make a announcement that they were requesting help from military in the middle of a election campaign?
> 
> The Feds cannot send in the military unilaterally, the province needed to ask for it, probably because it was needed.
> 
> There was no mention because it didn't matter at that point. When the hospitals are about to collapse and start denying care because their capacity was all accounted for, it matters little how they got into the situation, just that they were in it.
> 
> and it was covid doing that. Not a flu. They are not comparable.
> 
> The rest of your post is not worth commenting on.


Is it any less theatre when announced by one or the other? The military assistance amounted to SFA, but it sure made a lot of noise.

Of course it matters, several of Alberta's hospitals had significant patient load by assisting other provinces... meaning all casualties are not solely from Alberta... which ergo means Alberta isn't the dirty sickly place those insinuate it is. It's hospitals were getting fuller in part from helping other jurisdictions.  Big difference there to what is being portrayed.


----------



## QV

Blackadder1916 said:


> "8 people arrive"
> 
> And that was, approximately, the number that I expected when I heard Premier Kenney requesting federal assistance for personnel qualified to staff ICUs.   Remember, the CAF no longer operates any hospitals in Canada though they do have staff at units established in civilian facilities across Canada (including in Alberta).  It is likely that they continued to work within those civilian facilities (including in ICUs) during the pandemic; if they were removed to be sent elsewhere then those hospitals would have to be backfilled.  That the military was able to find eight critical care trained (hopefully experienced and currently up-to-date) nurses was (to my dated experience) a little surprising, but the emphasis on military nurses being CC trained has changed much in the 37+ years since I last worked in the ICU at NDMC (an eight bed unit - the only one in a CF hospital that was fully staffed and operational 24/7/365).
> 
> But if the number is "8", why are there "9" in the group?
> 
> View attachment 66837




Are you really calling me out because that picture has 9 instead of 8? Do you think going from 8 nurses to 8 nurses plus 1 OiC has somehow made this significant?


----------



## QV

Brad Sallows said:


> I predict COVID will remain among us, yet will never be declared endemic.



There is far too much to gain for those in control.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> There is far too much to gain for those in control.


Like what?


----------



## mariomike

Regarding emergency services mandates.

Firefighters and paramedics have already been dealt with in the town I live. YMMV.

In the news today for our police,

Toronto Police Service Mandatory Vaccination Requirement Update​*Date:* Thursday, October 21, 2021



			Toronto Police Service :: News Release #51276
		




> Effective on November 30, 2021, any member, uniform or civilian, who has not disclosed their vaccination status or is not fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will have rendered themselves unable to perform their duties.





> These members will be placed on an indefinite unpaid absence and will not be permitted to enter TPS buildings or facilities. If and when the member is fully vaccinated and discloses their updated vaccination status, they will be able to return to work.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Like what?


Less restriction on the exercise of power and control.


----------



## Mick

QV said:


> Less restriction on the exercise of power and control.


To what end?  

How does a gov't at any level benefit by restricting in-person dining and other measures?

Governments are reluctantly imposing these measures.  Do you really think Jason Kenny is happily imposing restrictions on Albertans while his popularity tanks?

They are temporary, as evidenced by Alberta prematurely ending them.  Other provinces are loosening them / phasing them out as the situation changes.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> To what end?
> 
> How does a gov't at any level benefit by restricting in-person dining and other measures?
> 
> Governments are reluctantly imposing these measures.  Do you really think Jason Kenny is happily imposing restrictions on Albertans while his popularity tanks?
> 
> They are temporary, as evidenced by Alberta prematurely ending them.  Other provinces are loosening them / phasing them out as the situation changes.


The key to unlimited power is making people get take out, naturally.

/Sarcasm


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Is there an objective definition of when this will be deemed to have happened?


We are flying by the seat of our pants, collectively. Maybe some big brained person somewhere in the scientific field in Canada has an answer to this in some fashion where every government, municipal, provincial and federal all agree upon, but I doubt it.


Brad Sallows said:


> Suppose that "as long as COVID is not endemic, restrictions (rights infringements) and economic support will continue."  I predict COVID will remain among us, yet will never be declared endemic.


Let us all pray to that it either mutates in a way that makes it less deadly, and makes people less sick, or just flames out.

If it remains in its current form, we may be facing restrictions up until the point that that vaccines and antivirals preform even better than they are at the moment, a tall ask.


Brad Sallows said:


> Past time to think about ways to surge ICU capacity without throwing up our hands and blowing up healthy economic activity whenever habitual 70-90% utilization is pressed above 100%.  This round caught everyone napping with happy assumptions; such a capability is likely to be needed, sometime, maybe sooner than we think.  The economic disruption that can be achieved by malicious release of a relatively mild virus will not have escaped notice.


Trying to get the provinces to take money and reach ICU capacity goals is going to be like pulling teeth


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> Let us all pray to that it either mutates in a way that makes it less deadly, and makes people less sick, or just flames out.


The Spanish flu hit in late 1918 and was gone in about two years. I think there was a combination of factors that allowed this to happen. As far as I know the virus that caused it is still here but our immune systems adapted to it.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> The Spanish flu hit in late 1918 and was gone in about two years. I think there was a combination of factors that allowed this to happen. As far as I know the virus that caused it is still here but our immune systems adapted to it.


Combination of immune systems being exposed to it and it mutating into a less harmful strain would probably be the best answer.

either way, not endemic.

Also, that 24 month time period looks mighty appealing to me.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Just heard on the radio Freeland declared Canada has gained back all the jobs lost due to covid. Heck of a lot of help wanted signs all over the place.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jarnhamar said:


> Just heard on the radio Freeland declared Canada has gained back all the jobs lost due to covid. Heck of a lot of help wanted signs all over the place.


I have a bridge for sale.


----------



## Messerschmitt

OldSolduer said:


> The Spanish flu hit in late 1918 and was gone in about two years. I think there was a combination of factors that allowed this to happen. As far as I know the virus that caused it is still here but our immune systems adapted to it.



Yes, there was no cancerous mainstream media



brihard said:


> On another note: A judge in Manitoba has ruled that the province's COVID restrictions were not a breach of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Though there were limitations on Charter rights, they were found to be reasonable in the larger context.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-churches-charter-challenge-covid-decision-1.6217925
> 
> 
> 
> This is the action that was brought by seven churches last year. So far as I can tell, this is probably the biggest court case decided so far regarding the lawfulness of emergency powers and restrictions linked to COVID.


That's very reassuring. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms seem to not be worth more than used toilet paper



daftandbarmy said:


> Oh, I'll go!
> 
> Because one is an Officer and therefore doesn't count?


Except they are all officers


----------



## Remius

Messerschmitt said:


> Yes, there was no cancerous mainstream media
> 
> 
> That's very reassuring. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms seem to not be worth more than used toilet paper
> 
> 
> Except they are all officers


Nah, conspiracy theorists and internet nut jobs were fewer and people had more sense of civic duty.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Messerschmitt said:


> Yes, there was no cancerous mainstream and social media


FTFY


----------



## Scott

And the two are completely woven together now.

Mouthbreathers like Pat King claiming to be investigative journalists and going viral enough on social media that some First Nation was inundated with calls due to King "interviewing" people who said that the CAF was there forcing the jab on people.





__





						An Anti-Vax Conspiracy Theory Video Went Viral. An Indigenous Community Paid the Price. - VICE
					





					www.vice.com


----------



## Jarnhamar

Fishbone Jones said:


> I have a bridge for sale.



Is it in BC? I'm thinking of heading out there to wash dishes for $50K a year









						Vancouver restaurant, facing staff shortage, offers $50,000 salary for a dishwasher
					

Competitive wages necessary to lure back staff who used lockdown time to regroup and rethink job options




					nationalpost.com


----------



## brihard

Scott said:


> And the two are completely woven together now.
> 
> Mouthbreathers like Pat King claiming to be investigative journalists and going viral enough on social media that some First Nation was inundated with calls due to King "interviewing" people who said that the CAF was there forcing the jab on people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Anti-Vax Conspiracy Theory Video Went Viral. An Indigenous Community Paid the Price. - VICE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


Pat King is a blithering idiot. Likewise the other COVID grifters- Kevin J Johnston, Chris Saccoccia, the Pawlowski brothers... I could go on. But the cold, hard reality of court verdicts is beginning to set in for these folks. Out Charter rights are not absolute; the Charter is not a guarantor of tantrum free of consequence, and court cases are rolling out now (Manitoba was one but there have been others) that recognize the challenging balancing act governments face in the midst of an event unique in living history. Individual rights are balanced against larger responsibility, and so far the courts are recognizing that.


----------



## Scott

Thankfully.

Most of us knew a few of them were trouble a long time ago.

There will be a next with them, just what. Hopefully long bouts with the legal system and more incarceration for at least one.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19?
					

This article examines issues related to COVID-19 inoculations for children. The bulk of the official COVID-19-attributed deaths per capita occur in th…




					www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19?
> 
> 
> This article examines issues related to COVID-19 inoculations for children. The bulk of the official COVID-19-attributed deaths per capita occur in th…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedirect.com


Because it would reduce transmission, not that you actually care about the answer.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Altair said:


> Because it would reduce transmission, not that you actually care about the answer.


Not at all. I just don't  care about YOUR answers.


----------



## brihard

Because children can also contract and spread the virus, and so are likely the biggest remaining vector? This still presents a huge risk to the immunosuppressed or otherwise vulnerable, it still presents a massive pool in which further mutations can happen, and it still keeps the virus spreading. If the vaccines work (they do) and are safe (they are), why wouldn't we offer the opportunity to parents to get their kids vaccinated?


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Because children can also contract and spread the virus, and so are likely the biggest remaining vector? This still presents a huge risk to the immunosuppressed or otherwise vulnerable, it still presents a massive pool in which further mutations can happen, and it still keeps the virus spreading. If the vaccines work (they do) and are safe (they are), why wouldn't we offer the opportunity to parents to get their kids vaccinated?


Lets hope he cares about your answer.


----------



## suffolkowner

The human coronaviruses HCOV-OC43,HCOV-HKU1, HCOV-229E, and HCOV-NL63 are endemic. SARS COV-19 has not reached endemic status and we are currently in an epidemic. Influenza A is endemic in human populations with periodic breakout epidemics sometimes from novel genetic combinations not unlike SARS COV. There are 18 H subtypes and 11 N subtypes. The H and N refer to protein structures that extrude from the virus shell again not unlike the spike protein on the coronoviruses. This great variety of possible combinations contributes to the concern that many people still have about future influenza outbreaks. 

Children seem to have greater expoure to the human coronaviruses and express antibodies to the spike protein however as we age there is a tendency for some reason for our immune system to switch to producing antibodies to other membrane/shell proteins(my reading on this is dated to the near start of the current epidemic)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> Because children can also contract and spread the virus, and so are likely the biggest remaining vector? This still presents a huge risk to the immunosuppressed or otherwise vulnerable, it still presents a massive pool in which further mutations can happen, and it still keeps the virus spreading. If the vaccines work (they do) and are safe (they are), why wouldn't we offer the opportunity to parents to get their kids vaccinated?


Just wondering. Do you have children?


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Just wondering. Do you have children?


Nope. Got a nephew and other very young relatives that I care about, so I don’t see the relevance. When I do have kids I’ll follow the advice of medical experts, including with regards to immunizations.


----------



## QV

brihard said:


> Nope. Got a nephew and other very young relatives that I care about, so I don’t see the relevance. When I do have kids I’ll follow the advice of medical experts, including with regards to immunizations.


You don’t see the relevance because you don’t have kids. Your relatives aren’t the same. You’ll see, if you do have kids eventually.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> When I do have kids I’ll follow the advice of medical experts, including with regards to immunizations.


As in experts who graduated medical school.


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> You don’t see the relevance because you don’t have kids. Your relatives aren’t the same. You’ll see, if you do have kids eventually.



There’s no reason for either of us to suddenly start taking the other seriously now, QV. We’ve got a good thing going, no need to muck that up.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> You don’t see the relevance because you don’t have kids. Your relatives aren’t the same. You’ll see, if you do have kids eventually.


He doesn’t see the relevance because the anti vax side will use the whole concern for kids to fit their narrative.


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19?
> 
> 
> This article examines issues related to COVID-19 inoculations for children. The bulk of the official COVID-19-attributed deaths per capita occur in th…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencedirect.com


Those writing the article used VAERS as their main source of adverse effects data and also cited an article by Joseph Mercola.  I'm going to have to give a thumbs down on that one.  I'm still trying to find out if this article was peer reviewed.

And FWIW, I have a child and grandchildren.  I would want them vaccinated.


----------



## OldSolduer

One of my grandchildren is vaxxed. Stella is only 10 but I’d like to see her vaxxed as well.

Kids are - or at least were - vaxxed all the time. IIRC I think at one time they had to be just to attend school.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The bottom line with Covid vaccinations is that you have two options.

1. Get vaccinated; or
2. Be treated like a 4th class citizen with your freedom of movement severely restricted and be harassed like a pariah everywhere you go.


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> The bottom line with Covid vaccinations is that you have two options.
> 
> 1. Get vaccinated; or
> 2. Be treated like a 4th class citizen with your freedom of movement severely restricted and be harassed like a pariah everywhere you go.


Oh bullshit. Who knows who's vaccinated or not, when out and about?

You know there's a third option. Don't get vaccinated and stay home. Oh, and don't post conspiracy theory crap about COVID/vaccines/NWO....


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:


> Oh bullshit. Who knows who's vaccinated or not, when out and about?
> 
> You know there's a third option. Don't get vaccinated and stay home. Oh, and don't post conspiracy theory crap about COVID/vaccines/NWO....


I'm sure you remember when travel bans were racist and there was no proof Covid could be transferred between humans.

Things change. Next month the government may decide you need your vaccine passport to go inside any public building.


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm sure you remember when travel bans were racist and there was no proof Covid could be transferred between humans.
> 
> Things change. Next month the government may decide you need your vaccine passport to go inside any public building.


To get into a hockey game or in the military gym you need your vaxx card. No card, no entry at least here in Winnipeg


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Things change. Next month the government may decide you need your vaccine passport to go inside any public building.


Since most things can be done online, I'm okay with that. As long as people can still access necessities (groceries, etc).


----------



## HiTechComms

OldSolduer said:


> To get into a hockey game or in the military gym you need your vaxx card. No card, no entry at least here in Winnipeg


In the military they check your vaxx card to get into military gym? I mean isn't that redundant since members are vaccinated?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Being vaxxed is not the problem. Being vaxxed with a rushed vaccine that nobody knows the future ramifications of is the problem. Unless the vaccination is completely benign, nobody can say what the future holds for people that have been jabbed, especially children. Big pharma is driven by profit, not humanitarian ideals. One only needs look at the opioid crisis to see where their loyalties lay. The word for word scripts parroted by the MSM should give cause to consider the source as well as the amount of current affairs programs and major news programs sponsored by Pfizer. I have developed a healthy mistrust of government, MSM and big pharma. Just because some people have degrees and post nominals doesn't mean I should follow, blindly, what they profess. For everyone of them stating their support, there are just as many that don't. However, there's an agenda to push and the big money gets the airwaves.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450464402000556039


----------



## OldSolduer

HiTechComms said:


> In the military they check your vaxx card to get into military gym? I mean isn't that redundant since members are vaccinated?


Not all who use the gym are military. Retired members are now allowed in.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

OldSolduer said:


> Not all who use the gym are military. Retired members are now allowed in.


And those who get put on LWOP would still have ID cards I'd assume.


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> Being vaxxed is not the problem. Being vaxxed with a rushed vaccine that nobody knows the future ramifications of is the problem. Unless the vaccination is completely benign, nobody can say what the future holds for people that have been jabbed, especially children. Big pharma is driven by profit, not humanitarian ideals. One only needs look at the opioid crisis to see where their loyalties lay. The word for word scripts parroted by the MSM should give cause to consider the source as well as the amount of current affairs programs and major news programs sponsored by Pfizer. I have developed a healthy mistrust of government, MSM and big pharma. Just because some people have degrees and post nominals doesn't mean I should follow, blindly, what they profess. For everyone of them stating their support, there are just as many that don't. However, there's an agenda to push and the big money gets the airwaves.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450464402000556039


The amount of nonsense you get away with posting here consistently amazes me.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Altair said:


> The amount of nonsense you get away with posting here consistently amazes me.


Easy there Sunshine.......we value discussion here, not echo chambers.   And, although I disagree with him on this stance, I except that in 20 years he may have been 100% right, when most of us have an extra hand growing out of our foreheads.       Only time establishes the truth....


----------



## Blackadder1916

OldSolduer said:


> One of my grandchildren is vaxxed. Stella is only 10 but I’d like to see her vaxxed as well.
> 
> Kids are - or at least were - vaxxed all the time. *IIRC I think at one time they had to be just to attend school.*



It's a mixed bag in Canada.  Two provinces (Ont & NB) require diphtheria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella immunization (sounds pretty much like the shots one gets when joining the army) and while it is reported that Manitoba requires measles vax for school attendance, nothing on that province's immunization schedule so states.  All the other jurisdictions recommend but don't mandate unless an outbreak justifies a public health order.


----------



## OldSolduer

Blackadder1916 said:


> It's a mixed bag in Canada.  Two provinces (Ont & NB) require diphtheria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella immunization (sounds pretty much like the shots one gets when joining the army) and while it is reported that Manitoba requires measles vax for school attendance, nothing on that province's immunization schedule so states.  All the other jurisdictions recommend but don't mandate unless an outbreak justifies a public health order.


Thanks. I'm relying on my memory of school so I could be a bit dated.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Altair said:


> The amount of nonsense you get away with posting here consistently amazes me.


I could say the same for you. One only need look at the usual suspects that always drop their stupid little spam and laughing emojies on everything I post. Although not widespread, cancel culture is alive and well at milnet amongst your little gang. If I don't agree or post contrary to your ugly group think, your first reaction is ad hominems and ridicule. This is why you, The Head and others of your ilk are ignored. I won't play your childish games. For now, at least there is still some semblance of Freedom of Expression in Canada and I fully intend on taking advantage of it as long as I can. So keep posting your slurs, secure in the knowledge that I could care less about your kindergarten reviews.


----------



## TheHead

Childish games? You continuously blame immigrants for the rise of Covid in red states, , defended white nationalism  and have spent the last few decades being vile and driving Liberals away from this site and you want to call us childish?  If me laughing at your Qanon conspiracies' hurts you so much I'll take a step back from clicking that big bad humorous button because it wounds you so.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

TheHead said:


> Childish games? You continuously blame immigrants for the rise of Covid in red states, , defended white nationalism  and have spent the last few decades being vile and driving Liberals away from this site and you want to call us childish?  If me laughing at your Qanon conspiracies' hurts you so much I'll take a step back from clicking that big bad humorous button because it wounds you so.


See, didn't even read it did you sunshine. I don't give a fiddler's fuck about you or your opinion. Your main contribution since you joined is lurking and slamming.  At least I make an effort to contribute. It just more typical finger pointing to bolster your own non status. L8r. Back to Ignore with you.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> See, didn't even read it did you sunshine. I don't give a fiddler's fuck about you or your opinion. Your main contribution since you joined is lurking and slamming.  At least I make an effort to contribute. It just more typical finger pointing to bolster your own non status. L8r. Back to Ignore with you.


You seem upset.  You are free to post what you want.  Just as anyone is free to critique it or opine on it.  For someone who says he doesn’t care you seem quite adamant about actually responding and look to be very upset over what others have posted.


----------



## Blackadder1916

OldSolduer said:


> Thanks. I'm relying on my memory of school so I could be a bit dated.



My memory of school vaccinations were for polio (still a real threat back then) and BCG (a tuberculosis vaccine given in Nfld and Quebec).  All those others were yet to come, the method of acquired immunity in those days for measles, mumps and rubella was to get infected.  When I joined in the 1970s, MMR was not available; in fact, I caught rubella (German Measles) at Cornwallis.


----------



## kkwd

Blackadder1916 said:


> My memory of school vaccinations were for polio (still a real threat back then) and BCG (a tuberculosis vaccine given in Nfld and Quebec).  All those others were yet to come, the method of acquired immunity in those days for measles, mumps and rubella was to get infected.  When I joined in the 1970s, MMR was not available; in fact, I caught rubella (German Measles) at Cornwallis.


There have been studies conducted regarding BCG relating to covid 19. A Cedars-Sinai study was done and results published in _The Journal of Clinical Investigation_. It was published almost a year ago.
Cedars-Sinai


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:


> Since most things can be done online, I'm okay with that. As long as people can still access necessities (groceries, etc).


You can order groceries online and pick them up, or have them delivered to your house. You can also talk to a doctor over zoom.


----------



## OldSolduer

Blackadder1916 said:


> My memory of school vaccinations were for polio (still a real threat back then) and BCG (a tuberculosis vaccine given in Nfld and Quebec).  All those others were yet to come, the method of acquired immunity in those days for measles, mumps and rubella was to get infected.  When I joined in the 1970s, MMR was not available; in fact, I caught rubella (German Measles) at Cornwallis.


I still can see faint traces of the BCG and tuberculosis inoculations. And tuberculosis is still a threat to many northern communities.


----------



## hattrick72

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And those who get put on LWOP would still have ID cards I'd assume.


Do you really think military members will be put on LWOP before being released? 

What do we do with the members in the shacks on rations that no longer have pay?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

hattrick72 said:


> Do you really think military members will be put on LWOP before being released?
> 
> What do we do with the members in the shacks on rations that no longer have pay?


Isn't LWOP what they are saying right now??


----------



## Jarnhamar

hattrick72 said:


> Do you really think military members will be put on LWOP before being released?


No.


----------



## dapaterson

So... we're holding the public service to a higher standard than the CAF, then?


----------



## PuckChaser

That's what happens when you make up crap on the fly without a cabinet to issue an OIC change to the QR&Os to allow members to be forced onto LWOP. It'll be interesting to see if they try that, seeing as how we paid Russell Williams while he was pending trial but because someone is "unclean" they'll get their pay cut.


----------



## hattrick72

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Isn't LWOP what they are saying right now??


The latest is they are looking into it, vaccination against COVID as a requirement for employment is a temporary measure, and right below that statement it says boosters may be a requirement and we will follow public health. 

I think the document has everything everyone wants to read.


----------



## FJAG

PuckChaser said:


> That's what happens when you make up crap on the fly without a cabinet to issue an OIC change to the QR&Os to allow members to be forced onto LWOP. It'll be interesting to see if they try that, seeing as how we paid Russell Williams while he was pending trial but because someone is "unclean" they'll get their pay cut.


You do not need an OIC to change a QR&O. Each of the Minister and Treasury Board can make and change regulations within their appropriate areas pursuant to s 12 of the NDA as limited by s 13. Pursuant to s 18(2) of the NDA, all orders and instructions to the CF are issued by or through the CDS. Together, these regulations and these orders are QR&Os.

Pursuant to QR&Os 1.13, which is an OiC, a fairly broad delegation of powers authority is given to the CDS.

I'm not about to go into a lengthy analysis of who has power to do what within DND vis-a-vis this issue (I'll leave that to DAP) but I'm pretty certain that these matters do not need an OiC to be valid. Legislatures and governments generally operate by delegation of powers to the appropriate departments. 

🍻


----------



## MJP

FJAG said:


> You do not need an OIC to change a QR&O. Each of the Minister and Treasury Board can make and change regulations within their appropriate areas pursuant to s 12 of the NDA as limited by s 13. Pursuant to s 18(2) of the NDA, all orders and instructions to the CF are issued by or through the CDS. Together, these regulations and these orders are QR&Os.
> 
> Pursuant to QR&Os 1.13, which is an OiC, a fairly broad delegation of powers authority is given to the CDS.
> 
> I'm not about to go into a lengthy analysis of who has power to do what within DND vis-a-vis this issue (I'll leave that to DAP) but I'm pretty certain that these matters do not need an OiC to be valid. Legislatures and governments generally operate by delegation of powers to the appropriate departments.wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
> 
> 🍻


Stop it with the relevance instead of reaching....


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:


> So... we're holding the public service to a higher standard than the CAF, then?


I believe so yes.

I don't think the CAF has the backbone to do it. They'll give themselves a backdoor. 

I mean right now the only proof required is to input the dates you think you got your vaccination into monitormass. No requirement to upload a photocopy or scan of your needle book or any sort of proof. 

I know a reserve csm who formed everyone up and asked who had their vaccination. Took names and then updated monitormass on everyone's behalf.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> I believe so yes.
> 
> I don't think the CAF has the backbone to do it. They'll give themselves a backdoor.
> 
> I mean right now the only proof required is to input the dates you think you got your vaccination into monitormass. No requirement to upload a photocopy or scan of your needle book or any sort of proof.
> 
> I know a reserve csm who formed everyone up and asked who had their vaccination. Took names and then updated monitormass on everyone's behalf.


The PS process isn’t much more sophisticated.  It’s an attestation in TAP.  So no proof either.


----------



## Jarnhamar

A pinky promise verses LWOP or getting fired (civilian), quite the jump.

I'm not complaining, I don't really care. It's just mildly amusing I got away with promising this (which seems like a big deal) but had to provide proof in the form of a certificate that I took the DLN Aboriginal awareness course.


----------



## PuckChaser

MJP said:


> Stop it with the relevance instead of reaching....


If it was that easy, the CAF would have sorted it out with the CDS Directive issued last week. Or...



Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think the CAF has the backbone to do it. They'll give themselves a backdoor.


Is it lack of backbone or realizing the direction to put people on LWOP is stupid and overly punitive? If we want to change the Medical Standard to require COVID-19 vaccination, do that. It makes complete sense, requires very little in the way of staff work to initiate but just means folks have to hang around while the PCATs are applied and ARs done.

Maybe the CAF will figure out a policy in May 2022 after Ontario has lifted all restrictions by end March 2022. Heck, I saw a PLQ course walking in single file with 5m patrol spacing outside wearing masks. The sheer idiocy of that direction doesn't instill a lot of confidence we're going to get anything right on this.


----------



## Good2Golf

Probably CDS means CDS, and not Acting CDS, so until that gets resolved by a government with a spine, QR&O update may not be an option.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> So no proof either.


Proof of Vaccination seems like a YMMV thing, depending on employer.



> The City of Toronto requires proof of vaccination from all employees. Proof means documentation verifying receipt of a vaccination series approved by Health Canada or the World Health Organization.
> For a two dose vaccine series, employees must receive one dose of COVID-19 vaccine by September 30, 2021 and two doses of COVID-19 vaccine by October 30, 2021.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> The PS process isn’t much more sophisticated.  It’s an attestation in TAP.  So no proof either.


For now. My read of the policy suggests they intend to allow verification, but in order to meet the intended timeline, the approach is “trust but verify”.


----------



## Booter

When all this first rolled out, like I mean Covid vaccines, I was looking after about 50 people- trying to get them in with public health etc to get their vaccinations. We were pretty excited to finally be eligible. So I had been asking everyone to include me in their emails to update their health records so I could track and make sure no one was missing out. I didn’t keep notes on people merely checked them off my lists.

It never even crossed my mind that it was all going to become this, and I was totally wrong to be included in their medical reporting. It was all good intentions- but my goodness the atmosphere changed fast.

Sorry for the derail. It’s just such strange times.


----------



## HiTechComms

Booter said:


> When all this first rolled out, like I mean Covid vaccines, I was looking after about 50 people- trying to get them in with public health etc to get their vaccinations. We were pretty excited to finally be eligible. So I had been asking everyone to include me in their emails to update their health records so I could track and make sure no one was missing out. I didn’t keep notes on people merely checked them off my lists.
> 
> It never even crossed my mind that it was all going to become this, and I was totally wrong to be included in their medical reporting. It was all good intentions- but my goodness the atmosphere changed fast.
> 
> Sorry for the derail. It’s just such strange times.


You broke some ethical and moral boundaries.

I had a request from Gov of Sask through my employer about a software app for passport. Having worked with several health authorities I know the legal nightmare they are. I said sure we can do it as and we can discuss it as long as the gov provides indemnity contracts in regards to health record knowledge. That pretty well much ended the conversation right there and than. No I will not do jumping jacks in a mine field for no amount of money.

IMHO no one should know your medical status except your doctor or possibly a nurse as it pertains to my personhood. Although I am ok with Vaccine I am not ok with giving that status to any one and if that means I cannot participate in society because I have no pass then so be it.  It doesn't bother me because I rather stay home and save money anyway  hehe.

Road to hell is paved with good intentions.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

HiTechComms said:


> IMHO no one should know your medical status except your doctor or possibly a nurse.
> 
> Road to hell is paved with good intentions.




Hey everyone, I have a fake hip and the arthritis wants my knee next.




Crap, I wanted everyone to go to hell......


----------



## Remius

All I know is that we are slowly getting out of this.  Ontario has a long term plan to ease all restrictions.

This is thanks to all those working hard and doing their part. 

 Anti vaxxers, conspiracy nuts and people who can’t follow simple rule had no part in this success.  They are all on the wrong side of history and can stay locked up in their caves for all I care until this done.


----------



## HiTechComms

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Hey everyone, I have a fake hip and the arthritis wants my knee next.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crap, I wanted everyone to go to hell......


If you want to share you med info that is your prerogative. I simply don't want to share mine.  That's what I mean.

Oh have you ever had a STD and what was it?


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> This is thanks to all those working hard and doing their part.


Even those who "did nothing. Absolutely nothing."
"Our couch was our front-line."


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> You broke some ethical and moral boundaries.
> 
> I had a request from Gov of Sask through my employer about a software app for passport. Having worked with several health authorities I know the legal nightmare they are. I said sure we can do it as and we can discuss it as long as the gov provides indemnity contracts in regards to health record knowledge. That pretty well much ended the conversation right there and than. No I will not do jumping jacks in a mine field for no amount of money.
> 
> IMHO no one should know your medical status except your doctor or possibly a nurse as it pertains to my personhood. Although I am ok with Vaccine I am not ok with giving that status to any one and if that means I cannot participate in society because I have no pass then so be it.  It doesn't bother me because I rather stay home and save money anyway  hehe.
> 
> Road to hell is paved with good intentions.


You are, of course, aware that the military you’re just about to join requires disclosure of vaccine status?


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> You are, of course, aware that the military you’re just about to join requires disclosure of vaccine status?


I am aware of that.

Signing on the dotted line I agreed to voluntarily give up my Canadian privileges. This doesn't mean I have the same stance or opinion of the civilian population. They didn't sign on the dotted line, Informed Consent and all that Jazz.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> I am aware of that.
> 
> Signing on the dotted line* I agreed to voluntarily give up my Canadian privileges*. This doesn't mean I have the same stance or opinion of the civilian population. They didn't sign on the dotted line, Informed Consent and all that Jazz.


Sounds like you are in for a long and storied career. 

I don't recall signing anything when I was born to agree to follow the rules.


----------



## HiTechComms

lenaitch said:


> Sounds like you are in for a long and storied career.
> 
> I don't recall signing anything when I was born to agree to follow the rules.


I have no idea to what you are referring too and honestly don't care to much. I will be asked to make sacrifices while in the employ of the CAF and I will do so. If I didn't agree with that I would have not joined and I had been warned. Not sure why you are poking fun of that? (or are you poking fun of that)

_shrug_ 
It is what it is and thats all it is.


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> I am aware of that.
> 
> Signing on the dotted line I agreed to voluntarily give up my Canadian privileges. This doesn't mean I have the same stance or opinion of the civilian population. They didn't sign on the dotted line, Informed Consent and all that Jazz.


There’s nothing unique to the military in having basic employment requirements. Many other employers are requiring vaccination proof, with legal opinions in hand saying that’s legal.


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> There’s nothing unique to the military in having basic employment requirements. Many other employers are requiring vaccination proof, with legal opinions in hand saying that’s legal.


Not sure why this is morphing into something that I never said. Sure Informed consent and if your job requires it sure that is not a problem, then again I don't know everything and *most* private sector jobs I know off have no such stipulations. I have worked with/in a lot of private sector and public sectors. My whole point was that your medical information is yours unless you had previously agree to disclose those for a reason as part of an Informed consent situation. 

You are now completely straw manning and keep changing goal posts because I could go on a 10 page explanation and you would word pick it with something that didn't jive with you. You do you.  I am out, this a futile and fruitless conversation.


----------



## Booter

HiTechComms said:


> You broke some ethical and moral boundaries.
> 
> I had a request from Gov of Sask through my employer about a software app for passport. Having worked with several health authorities I know the legal nightmare they are. I said sure we can do it as and we can discuss it as long as the gov provides indemnity contracts in regards to health record knowledge. That pretty well much ended the conversation right there and than. No I will not do jumping jacks in a mine field for no amount of money.
> 
> IMHO no one should know your medical status except your doctor or possibly a nurse as it pertains to my personhood. Although I am ok with Vaccine I am not ok with giving that status to any one and if that means I cannot participate in society because I have no pass then so be it.  It doesn't bother me because I rather stay home and save money anyway  hehe.
> 
> Road to hell is paved with good intentions.


An easy position from the bench. On the operational side in impoverished communities with civilians running checkpoints trying to keep their community safe- we try and do our part. High ideals on the internet aside

I do hope that some middle ground is struck for people with the other ideals soon. Even those I disagree with,


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> Not sure why this is morphing into something that I never said. Sure Informed consent and if your job requires it sure that is not a problem, then again I don't know everything and *most* private sector jobs I know off have no such stipulations. I have worked with/in a lot of private sector and public sectors. My whole point was that your medical information is yours unless you had previously agree to disclose those for a reason as part of an Informed consent situation.
> 
> You are now completely straw manning and keep changing goal posts because I could go on a 10 page explanation and you would word pick it with something that didn't jive with you. You do you.  I am out, this a futile and fruitless conversation.


It was a direct response to the inaccurate implication that by ‘signing in the dotted line’, for military service, that you were in an exceptional situation regarding that particular piece of information. That was directly on topic.

Generally speaking I’m in agreement with you on medically sensitive information. I simply don’t consider vaccinations to be a particularly sensitive or intrusive piece of information, and in a lot of different realms (childcare and education come to mind, plus numerous fields of employment), it’s already been a thing long before Covid.

It seems people easily forget we’re in a situation that has threatened public health in a way not seen in a century. It’s only because of all the many measures taken that things didn’t get far worse. Safe and easily available vaccinations are one of the best tool society has to deal with viral health crises. At some point, individual rights have to become balanced with individual responsibility, and with a collective duty to protect the more vulnerable whole- a concept that should actually come very easily to anyone signing up for military service. Receiving the Covid vaccine and attesting to your status is honestly one of the less intrusive and dangerous things that a military career will bring.


----------



## lenaitch

HiTechComms said:


> Not sure why this is morphing into something that I never said. Sure Informed consent and if your job requires it sure that is not a problem, then again I don't know everything and *most* private sector jobs I know off have no such stipulations. I have worked with/in a lot of private sector and public sectors. My whole point was that your medical information is yours unless you had previously agree to disclose those for a reason as part of an Informed consent situation.
> 
> You are now completely straw manning and keep changing goal posts because I could go on a 10 page explanation and you would word pick it with something that didn't jive with you. You do you.  I am out, this a futile and fruitless conversation.


In 55-odd years, you are right; the vast majority of employers did not ask or care about my vaccination status (my main public sector career being the exception).  My schools cared - perhaps why employers didn't.  More recently; however, that has significantly changed, in all sectors (with the exception of the Conservative party it seems).  I'm not sure I could get a job flipping burgers at McDs w/o proof.  Welcome to the brave new world.

I'm with Brihard on this - I've never considered vaccination status as particularly personal.


----------



## Remius

This is it.  People equate getting a vaccine and disclosing it to other more personal medical issues and statuses.  It’s a  process.  I mean people wear medic alert bracelets FFS.  We literally ask people about food allergies so we don’t kill them.  

Getting a vaccine or not seems to be way too sensitive than it needs to be.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:


> Getting a vaccine or not seems to be way too sensitive than it needs to be.


Convenient excuse....


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Convenient excuse....


Yup. Particularly given how eager many were to specifically and publicly identify that they _weren’t_ vaccinated, nor planning to be- until this had negative repercussions, and suddenly it’s super secret.


----------



## MilEME09

brihard said:


> Yup. Particularly given how eager many were to specifically and publicly identify that they _weren’t_ vaccinated, nor planning to be- until this had negative repercussions, and suddenly it’s super secret.


Which is a tricky thing to navigate, exemptions is something I am having to deal with in my unit with certain individual's, but I think we have struck the right balance. Example for a religous objection we are asking for a letter from a religious leader stating why vaccination is against their beliefs, and that is it, done deal. At the end of the day our task boils down to protecting the forces ability to defend Canada, which if that requires a vaccine, the CoC can mandate that, because it is for the common good of protecting the country.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

MOUNTIES FOR FREEDOM
					

Your Freedom is Our Fight




					mounties4freedom.ca


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Lost me at " division ".......getting vaccinated is certainly not dividing us.
What are we at at now?  Around 80% and climbing.....just how many seats would that win a party in Ottawa if those were votes?  And would folks say that is a divided country?


----------



## Scott

Fishbone Jones said:


> MOUNTIES FOR FREEDOM
> 
> 
> Your Freedom is Our Fight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mounties4freedom.ca



Wow. That's a rather impressive pile of complete reaching and hyperbole.

What are the numbers of these Mounties 4 Freedom?

Though they did drop this tidbit, which should sum it all up:



> RCMP members are not scientists nor healthcare professionals


----------



## brihard

Not really a surprise. Any of the impacted professions have a couple % who will publicly and actively resist the vaccine mandate, I guess the RCMP are the same. There have been similar letters from small gaggles of nurses, teachers, etc.  That particularly letter starts out reasonably well written, then descends into the same familiar BS. The holocaust references are particularly dumb and disappointing.

Some will choose to eat the LWOP, some will retire, some will choose to get vaccinated. Up to them I guess.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> Not really a surprise. Any of the impacted professions have a couple % who will publicly and actively resist the vaccine mandate, I guess the RCMP are the same. There have been similar letters from small gaggles of nurses, teachers, etc.  That particularly letter starts out reasonably well written, then descends into the same familiar BS. The holocaust references are particularly dumb and disappointing.
> 
> Some will choose to eat the LWOP, some will retire, some will choose to get vaccinated. Up to them I guess.


I also call BS.  27K active serving RCMP members signed this?  That math doesn’t add up.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> I also call BS.


When it comes from the RCMP union, I will take it seriously.



> The National Police Federation is the sole certified bargaining agent for regular Members and reservists of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police below the rank of Inspector.


----------



## Booter

mariomike said:


> When it comes from the RCMP union, I will take it seriously.


It’s not from the union?


----------



## mariomike

Booter said:


> It’s not from the union.


I think that was pretty obvious.  

This I took seriously,









						Statement: NPF Responds to Federal Government Mandatory Vaccination Policy - NPF-FPN
					

October 8, 2021 Ottawa, ON — Following is a statement from Brian Sauvé, President of the National Police Federation, responding to the federal government’s introduction of a mandatory vaccination policy for all federal public service employees, which includes the RCMP: […]




					npf-fpn.com


----------



## mariomike

Booter said:


> It’s not from the union?



Your post in Reply #5880 said,



> It’s not from the union.



That is what I quoted.

Then it said,



> It’s not from the union?


----------



## lenaitch

Booter said:


> It’s not from the union?


No indication it/they are connected to the NPF.

The line that made me chuckle was that the RCMP should be a mix of both vaccinated and non-vaccinated members to better reflect the communities they serve.  I suppose then, in the spirit of reflectivity, it should have a percentage of members with violent criminal records as well.


----------



## daftandbarmy

i


lenaitch said:


> No indication it/they are connected to the NPF.
> 
> The line that made me chuckle was that the RCMP should be a mix of both vaccinated and non-vaccinated members to better reflect the communities they serve.  I suppose then, in the spirit of reflectivity, it should have a percentage of members with *violent criminal records *as well.



Conveniently, some of those crimes committed by RCMP members are listed here 

List of controversies involving the Royal Canadian Mounted Police​








						List of controversies involving the Royal Canadian Mounted Police - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> No indication it/they are connected to the NPF.
> 
> The line that made me chuckle was that the RCMP should be a mix of both vaccinated and non-vaccinated members to better reflect the communities they serve.  I suppose then, in the spirit of reflectivity, it should have a percentage of members with violent criminal records as well.


If I get pulled over, with an officer leaning in my car window if they suspect I have been drinking, I would prefer s/he be vaccinated.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> This is it.  People equate getting a vaccine and disclosing it to other more personal medical issues and statuses.  It’s a  process.  I mean people wear medic alert bracelets FFS.  We literally ask people about food allergies so we don’t kill them.



Don't confuse things people are free to disclose if they choose (vax status, medications, preferred recreational chemicals and beverages, allergies, other conditions) with things people are compelled to disclose.

"Stick" is and always has been the weaker way to proceed.  More "carrot" should be employed.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

lenaitch said:


> No indication it/they are connected to the NPF.
> 
> The line that made me chuckle was that the RCMP should be a mix of both vaccinated and non-vaccinated members to better reflect the communities they serve.  I suppose then, in the spirit of reflectivity, it should have a percentage of members with violent criminal records as well.



In my view comparing unvaccinated individuals to people with violent criminal records is a false equivalence and an inappropriate comparison. People have many reasons for declining any given medical treatment. To call them criminal takes things much too far in my view.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

brihard said:


> There’s nothing unique to the military in having basic employment requirements. Many other employers are requiring vaccination proof, with legal opinions in hand saying that’s legal.



Employers are certainly adding vaccination requirement to new contracts. But they are unilaterally adding it to contracts when such terms never existed before. I find it disappointing that legal experts who three months ago were unanimous that vaccine mandates in the workplace are not lawful, have now done a 180 and have revised their opinions to match the popular view. 

I would suggest that the military is not just any ordinary employer. People who join the military knowingly give up rights upon enrolment than they would never expect to forfeit upon joining a regular job.


----------



## PMedMoe

LittleBlackDevil said:


> In my view comparing unvaccinated individuals to people with violent criminal records is a false equivalence and an inappropriate comparison. People have many reasons for declining any given medical treatment. To call them criminal takes things much too far in my view.


Pretty sure that wasn't the implication.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Jarnhamar said:


> The bottom line with Covid vaccinations is that you have two options.
> 
> 1. Get vaccinated; or
> 2. Be treated like a 4th class citizen with your freedom of movement severely restricted and be harassed like a pariah everywhere you go.



I am strongly opposed to vaccine passports, but in my view #2 is a bit of an overstatement.

Freedom of movement in or out of the country is certainly restricted (impossible) at present, otherwise unvaccinated people can move about freely. Just not on an airplane. There's still a lot of places they can travel by car if they so desire. I think 4th class citizen goes a bit too far as well ... they are banned from certain luxuries but in an age of relatively inexpensive home theatre setups, kitchens, and such one can still enjoy a lot of these luxuries. As for the pariah thing I haven't seen that happen. On the streets/casual encounters I don't see the topic coming up.


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:


> "Stick" is and always has been the weaker way to proceed.  More "carrot" should be employed.


But how much more carrot do people need?  We've had over a year of multiple vaccination clinics at all sorts of venues; more recently clear numbers of unvaccinated folks in ICU, and on and on.  I suspect the vast majority of unvaccinated people at this point have no intention of getting on board regardless of more information.

In terms of employment, it seems people want to be able to suck and blow at the same time.  Some organizations are saying that they support their members being vaccinated and even mandated, but no sanctions.  What's the point of having rules?

Clearly, the rules of employment for many have changed.  Like that has never happened before.


----------



## lenaitch

LittleBlackDevil said:


> In my view comparing unvaccinated individuals to people with violent criminal records is a false equivalence and an inappropriate comparison. People have many reasons for declining any given medical treatment. To call them criminal takes things much too far in my view.


If that's what you read into that paragraph, I can't help you further.


----------



## brihard

Booter said:


> It’s not from the union?


It’s got nothing to do with the RCMP union, and the union has nothing to do with it. This is a (probably small) number of members doing their own thing.

The union isn’t fighting the vaccine mandate, and have advised their members that the legal opinion they got is that the mandate is legal. Individual members will be offered guidance and support on whatever the administrative consequences are, but none of the federal unions appear to be actually fighting this. Give it a few more weeks and any Mountie who isn’t vaccinated and has no valid exemption will not be working. No idea what that’ll look like long term. Depends on if the mandate is of permanent or only temporary effect.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Is the government breaking the law?








						1996 report says Canada's Health Department found 'immunization was not mandatory'
					

According to the report, "immunization is not mandatory in Canada," said the department's Canadian National Report On Immunization. "It cannot be made mandatory because of the Canadian Constitution."



					cms.thepostmillennial.com


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> But how much more carrot do people need?


Carrots and peas. Potatoes and roast beef.



> If enough inmates get vaccinated there will be roast beef at Christmas ...yes, really.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451184782826610704


----------



## Remius

We’ll it’s not like you fire them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> I also call BS.  27K active serving RCMP members signed this?  That math doesn’t add up.


Because anyone can sign, not just RCMP. It's now over 33K


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> Because anyone can sign, not just RCMP. It's now over 33K


Kind of dilutes their claim about “who” they are.


----------



## Remius

But they did say they would publish names once they actually hit 1000 members.  I guess they haven’t reached that threshold.  If we use the CAF numbers to compare with I suspect there are probably about 800 or that won’t get vaccinated.  Not all would put their names to that and it would also include some vaccinated who believe in this.  So maybe 400 regular members as a high mark.  And a few dozen as a low mark.   My money would be on the few dozen.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

brihard said:


> The union isn’t fighting the vaccine mandate, and have advised their members that the legal opinion they got is that the mandate is legal.


And the legal part is only icing on cake.  For 18 months every Union has been whining for safer workplaces,....."Well guess what Sunshine, here is the most effective way we have right now to make your workplace safe."

Hard to backtrack on this one.


----------



## HiTechComms

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And the legal part is only icing on cake.  For 18 months every Union has been whining for safer workplaces,....."Well guess what Sunshine, here is the most effective way we have right now to make your workplace safe."
> 
> Hard to backtrack on this one.


Well if we all want a safer work places shouldn't we all be aware of each others all vaccines? IE: Hep, Flu, etc..? I mean who wants to take a risk working or receiving services with some one that are not protect or are potentially infected with a deadly disease like Hep B.

Heck I would be weary of working with some one that has HIV/Hep B and works in an occupation that has a likely occurrence of blood/fluid transmission. They do this at dental offices. They do this for safety of the staff and dentists.


----------



## TheHead

HiTechComms said:


> Well if we all want a safer work places shouldn't we all be aware of each others all vaccines? IE: Hep, Flu, etc..? I mean who wants to take a risk working or receiving services with some one that are not protect or are potentially infected with a deadly disease like Hep B.
> 
> Heck I would be weary of working with some one that has HIV/Hep B and works in an occupation that has a likely occurrence of blood/fluid transmission. They do this at dental offices. They do this for safety of the staff and dentists.



  Well lucky for you if you have to work somewhere that has a high occurrence of blood/fluid transmission you will be issued appropriate PPE to protect from those viruses.   The  HIV/Aids scare of the 70s is over my friend.  You're not going to get HIV from being close to someone.  You will get Covid19 though.

_Edit_ I'll elaborate a little more.  The chance of getting HIV from a single time needle stick or exposure in a profession that deals with HIV/HBV patients is incredibly low.  The CDC has a great resource on this  located here. 
https://www.cdc.gov/hai/pdfs/bbp/exp_to_blood.pdf


----------



## HiTechComms

TheHead said:


> Well lucky for you if you have to work somewhere that has a high occurrence of blood/fluid transmission you will be issued appropriate PPE to protect from those viruses.   The  HIV/Aids scare of the 70s is over my friend.  You're not going to get HIV from being close to someone.  You will get Covid19 though.


Yes but Covid has a low chance of Mortality (natural immunity) where as Hep B and Hiv have not so much.  Not to mention people lie about things like that. (Dental office experience) accidents also do occur. If those that have the disease cannot hide that fact I think it would be a good thing for society because it would save lives. We all have health cards, this could easily be included and people simply just scan their cards and presto. 

PPE being available, that's not possible in all situtuations, I mean lets say you work as a metal worker, you get cut and you don't tell some one that you have a disease then some one accidentally gets infected.

I mean all the Vaccine passport proponents argue this, good for all society as long as it saves one life. It doesn't take much of an imagination to see where this could all end up. I am being extremely facetious.

Where do we draw the line as a society? Are we going to use the tired moral brow beating argument of "think of the children" or "if it saves one life" or "You are killing grandma". Why can't the politicians actually sit down like adults and discuss this and actually pass laws rather than Delegate this to unelected bureaucrats. Delegate and Disapear is the norm of the Democratically elected officials.

Protect your self and loved ones
Don't be a dick to others stay home when sick
Don't stick your nose where it don't belong

Never had an issue in all my life staying home when I am sick nor the people I worked with. Most people are not sociopaths.


----------



## QV

Interesting that not too long before the election the notion of mandatory vaccines was "not supported in Canadian law". The PM himself was even on television proclaiming the same.  Then there was a sudden (in a legal sense this was a sudden about turn) and coordinated reversal.

Andrew C. McCarthy suggests when it comes to free speech, that is more of a cultural issue rather than a legal one. After the events of the last 18 months I am inclined to agree with this premise for more than just free speech. 









						Do We Have Freedom of Speech, Really? | National Review
					

Garland’s memo serves a progressive crusade to render these rights little more than a parchment promise.




					www.nationalreview.com
				




Snip..
_The Soviet constitution of 1936, Joseph Stalin’s constitution, explicitly guaranteed freedom of speech to all citizens of the USSR — in Article 125, which also vouchsafed the closely related freedoms of the press, of assembly, of mass meetings, and of street demonstrations. When Moscow revised the constitution in 1977, pains were again taken (in Article 50) to ensure — at least on paper — that “citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly, meetings, street processions and demonstrations.”

Were they in a position to do so, the tens of millions of men, women, and children immiserated, imprisoned, enslaved, and killed by the same totalitarian communist regime would have begged to differ.

“Rights” are not rights by virtue of being written down. They are not self-enforcing. Written “rights” are, instead, a reflection of what a body politic perceives to be fundamental. They are not an assurance that this perception will be actualized. *Whether freedom of speech truly exists is a cultural question, not a legal one.* It hinges on the society’s commitment to liberty as something that is lived, not merely spoken of.
_


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> All I know is that we are slowly getting out of this.  Ontario has a long term plan to ease all restrictions.
> 
> This is thanks to all those working hard and doing their part.
> 
> Anti vaxxers, conspiracy nuts* and people who can’t follow simple rule had no part in this success. * They are all on the wrong side of history and can stay locked up in their caves for all I care until this done.


Like our politicians who were telling us to stay home while going on vacations and traveling.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> Interesting that not too long before the election the notion of mandatory vaccines was "not supported in Canadian law". The PM himself was even on television proclaiming the same.


Didn't realize you were of the opinion that JT knew everything.


----------



## hattrick72

Remius said:


> But they did say they would publish names once they actually hit 1000 members.  I guess they haven’t reached that threshold.  If we use the CAF numbers to compare with I suspect there are probably about 800 or that won’t get vaccinated.  Not all would put their names to that and it would also include some vaccinated who believe in this.  So maybe 400 regular members as a high mark.  And a few dozen as a low mark.   My money would be on the few dozen.


My guess would be between 2,400 and 4,000 members  are unvaccinated or unwilling to provide their status in the regular force.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Here's  some background and the guy behind the petition.





						SuperU | Home
					

SuperU video sharing platform




					superu.net


----------



## Remius

hattrick72 said:


> My guess would be between 2,400 and 4,000 members  are unvaccinated or unwilling to provide their status in the regular force.


There are 4000 CAF members un vaccinated.  That’s roughly 4% of the CAF.     The RCMP uniformed members are about 20K so if we think it’s comparable to the CAF it would 4% of that.  Which is give or take 800. Just spit balling.


----------



## hattrick72

Remius said:


> There are 4000 CAF members un vaccinated.  That’s roughly 4% of the CAF.     The RCMP uniformed members are about 20K so if we think it’s comparable to the CAF it would 4% of that.  Which is give or take 800. Just spit balling.


I misunderstood you. Yeah, you may not be far off.


----------



## Remius

hattrick72 said:


> I misunderstood you. Yeah, you may not be far off.


Yeah, sorry, at first glance I can see why it was confusing my bad lol.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Didn't realize you were of the opinion that JT knew everything.


The point that clearly overshot your head was the flip flop. Your attempt at a jab is weak.


----------



## QV

Jarnhamar said:


> Like our politicians who were telling us to stay home while going on vacations and traveling.


Our politicians are the living embodiment of hypocrisy.


----------



## QV

Fishbone Jones said:


> Here's  some background and the guy behind the petition.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SuperU | Home
> 
> 
> SuperU video sharing platform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> superu.net


In a Canada before Trudeau it would be big news for an RCMP member on the Prime Minister‘s protective detail to speak out about *anything*. Today it’s buried while an internet user by the name of PMedMoe accuses you of trolling for sharing the same information. SMDH what a state of things.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> In a Canada before Trudeau it would be big news for an RCMP member on the Prime Minister‘s protective detail to speak out about *anything*. Today it’s buried while an internet user by the name of PMedMoe accuses you of trolling for sharing the same information. SMDH what a state of things.


When someone posts something without adding anything substantive to the discussion, I call it trolling, YMMV.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PMedMoe said:


> When someone posts something without adding anything substantive to the discussion, I call it trolling, YMMV.


🤣😅🤣


----------



## Jarnhamar

I’m not going to get vaccinated just to comply with arbitrary public safety rules,” says cop who makes living writing speeding tickets​








						"I'm not going to get vaccinated just to comply with arbitrary public safety rules," says cop who makes living writing speeding tickets
					

TORONTO - As the deadline looms for Toronto police to get vaccinated or be put on unpaid leave, many officers who spend their days writing speeding tickets are refusing to get "an unnecessary shot" just because "the man" says it's necessary for public safety.




					www.thebeaverton.com
				





Thought this was funny.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Not in same league as people who dictate arbitrary public safety rules and then proceed to violate their own dictates.


----------



## mariomike

The suspensions began on 30 Sept., where I used to work.


----------



## daftandbarmy

As I recall if your chute looks like a bag of dirty laundry, you cut it away:

Thousands of B.C. health-care workers off the job as vaccination deadline passes​
New vaccine rules now in effect in B.C.​

B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said more than 4,000 workers in the health-care system failed to get even one dose of COVID-19 vaccine before a deadline imposed by public health officials, and will be placed on unpaid leave.

The announcement came as part of a health briefing. Dix said the latest numbers available to the ministry showed of 126,343 workers, 4,090 weren't vaccinated.

Although he says the final numbers are being tallied and some of those include casual workers, thousands of workers are off the job at a time when the health-care system is under immense strain.










						Thousands of B.C. health-care workers off the job as vaccination deadline passes
					

B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said more than 4,000 workers in the health-care system failed to get even one dose of COVID-19 vaccine before a deadline imposed by public health officials, and will be placed on unpaid leave.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> As I recall if your chute looks like a bag of dirty laundry, you cut it away:
> 
> Thousands of B.C. health-care workers off the job as vaccination deadline passes​
> New vaccine rules now in effect in B.C.​
> 
> B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said more than 4,000 workers in the health-care system failed to get even one dose of COVID-19 vaccine before a deadline imposed by public health officials, and will be placed on unpaid leave.
> 
> The announcement came as part of a health briefing. Dix said the latest numbers available to the ministry showed of 126,343 workers, 4,090 weren't vaccinated.
> 
> Although he says the final numbers are being tallied and some of those include casual workers, thousands of workers are off the job at a time when the health-care system is under immense strain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thousands of B.C. health-care workers off the job as vaccination deadline passes
> 
> 
> B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said more than 4,000 workers in the health-care system failed to get even one dose of COVID-19 vaccine before a deadline imposed by public health officials, and will be placed on unpaid leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bc.ctvnews.ca


Got to admit they stood for their principals, they paid for their stance with consequences. The system owes them nothing and they owe the system nothing.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Thousands of B.C. health-care workers off the job as vaccination deadline passes​
> ​


Looks like they are suspended, but not, yet, terminated.



> If unvaccinated workers get a first dose before Nov. 15, they can start work seven days after that shot, but must wear PPE and take other precautions until they get their second dose. Their second shot must be no more than 35 days after the first.


----------



## hattrick72

mariomike said:


> Looks like they are suspended, but not, yet, terminated.


I believe Quebec backed down rather than suspended their healthcare workers


----------



## Jarnhamar

> New vaccine rules now in effect in B.C.​
> 
> B.C. Health Minister Adrian Dix said more than 4,000 workers in the health-care system failed to get even one dose of COVID-19 vaccine before a deadline imposed by public health officials, and will be placed on unpaid leave.



Oh look a warning order for the military.


----------



## mariomike

Edit.  I see you edited your post to include "military".

So, disregard mine.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Oh look a warning order for the military.


Ours will be a long drawn out process that will entail DLN courses, briefs by medical staff and questionnaires on why members didn’t vaccinate. LWOP and firing people in the forces is too much of a chore.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> Ours will be a long drawn out process that will entail DLN courses, briefs by medical staff and questionnaires on why members didn’t vaccinate. LWOP and firing people in the forces is too much of a chore.


I meant to suggest we'll be sending troops to BC to help their health care system that just lost a few thousand.


----------



## PuckChaser

Thank you Healthcare heroes, now don't let the door hit you on the way out, you filthy creatures.


----------



## QV

Jarnhamar said:


> I meant to suggest we'll be sending troops to BC to help their health care system that just lost a few thousand.


Sorry, those eight are tied up in Saskatchewan for now.


----------



## mariomike

I guess every organization has contingincy plans. 

My former employer cancelled vacations, mandated OT, and reassigned able bodied desk jockies back into operations.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> I meant to suggest we'll be sending troops to BC to help their health care system that just lost a few thousand.



I doubt it. We probably don't have a fraction of the numbers of skilled medical professionals needed to fill those jobs IIRC:


‘Significant and solemn day’: Nearly 6,000 BC healthcare workers fired or suspended without pay​​Today is a monumental day for British Columbia’s healthcare system.

Across the province, nearly 6,000 healthcare workers are being fired or suspended without pay for refusing to get vaccinated against COVID-19.

*Around 1,800 of them are long-term care or acute care workers who were suspended without pay on Oct. 12 and had two weeks to get their first dose before their employment was terminated.

They have now been laid off without any kind of severance.

The rest are employees of the broader healthcare system, who had until today to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.
Anyone who has yet to do that will be suspended without pay and will have their employment terminated as well if they do not get a first shot by Nov. 15.*

If they do get their first vaccination before that date, they will be able to resume working seven days after their shot, with extra protective measures in place until they are fully vaccinated.

Health Minister Adrian Dix provided a breakdown on how many of the province’s 126,343 general healthcare workers remain unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.
He expects these numbers to change in the coming days as more data becomes available:

British Columbia-wide: 4,090 unvaccinated, 2,626 partially vaccinated
Interior Health: 1,369 unvaccinated (7%)
Northern Health: 376 unvaccinated (5%)
Island Health: 678 unvaccinated (3%)
Fraser Health: 644 unvaccinated (2%)
Vancouver Coastal Health: 522 unvaccinated (2%)
Providence Health: 122 unvaccinated (2%)
Provincial Health Services: 496 unvaccinated (2%)
Dix called it a “significant and solemn day,” but said that the requirement to get vaccinated “is an absolute necessity in our healthcare system.”
“We know the impact on people and on families and we are hopeful that people will still take the opportunity to get vaccinated…and will be able to return to work.”

Dix said the impacts will be seen throughout BC, with areas like diagnostic imaging or labs being hit harder, and this is something that the Ministry of Health has been preparing for.

Interior Health, which has the highest rate of unvaccinated healthcare workers, could see some surgeries postponed in the coming days, but the minister said adjustments will be made to deal with that and support the regions that need it.

BC’s top doctor, Dr. Bonnie Henry echoed those comments from Dix and said that health officials will be looking at other areas of the system to supplement areas of the Interior where there are shortages on a temporary basis.

“It is so disruptive and detrimental to care when we have outbreaks in hospitals as we have a couple in the Interior right now,” she explained. “That is the reason why we have this vaccine mandate in place.”

BC has 9,229 base beds in its healthcare system and 8,817 are currently filled, with 410 of 2,553 surge beds currently being used as well.
In critical care, 440 of 510 base beds are currently occupied, as are 25 of 218 surge beds.

Dix said “we are exceptionally busy,” and that these numbers reflect all the actions being used to manage the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the healthcare system.

That includes the 67 people in critical care that have been transferred out of Northern Health, mostly to Vancouver Island, and base bed capacity being over 100% in Interior Health at the moment.

The health minister added that it continues to be unvaccinated COVID-19 patients that make up the majority of people in critical care due to the virus.

At this time, 133 of 155 people in critical care due to COVID-19 are unvaccinated, which includes 42 of 43 people under the age of 50.









						‘Significant and solemn day’: Nearly 6,000 BC healthcare workers fired or suspended without pay
					

Today is a monumental day for British Columbia’s healthcare system.    Across the province, nearly 6,000 healthcare workers are being fired.




					www.kamloopsbcnow.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

Heckuva hiring opportunity for places that have decided to be less draconian.


----------



## HiTechComms

Brad Sallows said:


> Heckuva hiring opportunity for places that have decided to be less draconian.


Where there is anarchy there is opertunity. I remember my American Economics Professor on 9/15 saying there are a lot of Economics grads needed in NY.  Pretty grimm but he was 100% correct. 

Its why I have a lot of investments in LTC companies. Gone be a gold mine for the next 15 years.


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:


> I doubt it. We probably don't have a fraction of the numbers of skilled medical professionals needed to fill those jobs IIRC:
> 
> 
> ‘Significant and solemn day’: Nearly 6,000 BC healthcare workers fired or suspended without pay​​Today is a monumental day for British Columbia’s healthcare system.
> 
> Across the province, nearly 6,000 healthcare workers are being fired or suspended without pay for refusing to get vaccinated against COVID-19.
> 
> *Around 1,800 of them are long-term care or acute care workers who were suspended without pay on Oct. 12 and had two weeks to get their first dose before their employment was terminated.
> 
> They have now been laid off without any kind of severance.
> 
> The rest are employees of the broader healthcare system, who had until today to get their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.
> Anyone who has yet to do that will be suspended without pay and will have their employment terminated as well if they do not get a first shot by Nov. 15.*
> 
> If they do get their first vaccination before that date, they will be able to resume working seven days after their shot, with extra protective measures in place until they are fully vaccinated.
> 
> Health Minister Adrian Dix provided a breakdown on how many of the province’s 126,343 general healthcare workers remain unvaccinated or partially vaccinated.
> He expects these numbers to change in the coming days as more data becomes available:
> 
> British Columbia-wide: 4,090 unvaccinated, 2,626 partially vaccinated
> Interior Health: 1,369 unvaccinated (7%)
> Northern Health: 376 unvaccinated (5%)
> Island Health: 678 unvaccinated (3%)
> Fraser Health: 644 unvaccinated (2%)
> Vancouver Coastal Health: 522 unvaccinated (2%)
> Providence Health: 122 unvaccinated (2%)
> Provincial Health Services: 496 unvaccinated (2%)
> Dix called it a “significant and solemn day,” but said that the requirement to get vaccinated “is an absolute necessity in our healthcare system.”
> “We know the impact on people and on families and we are hopeful that people will still take the opportunity to get vaccinated…and will be able to return to work.”
> 
> Dix said the impacts will be seen throughout BC, with areas like diagnostic imaging or labs being hit harder, and this is something that the Ministry of Health has been preparing for.
> 
> Interior Health, which has the highest rate of unvaccinated healthcare workers, could see some surgeries postponed in the coming days, but the minister said adjustments will be made to deal with that and support the regions that need it.
> 
> BC’s top doctor, Dr. Bonnie Henry echoed those comments from Dix and said that health officials will be looking at other areas of the system to supplement areas of the Interior where there are shortages on a temporary basis.
> 
> “It is so disruptive and detrimental to care when we have outbreaks in hospitals as we have a couple in the Interior right now,” she explained. “That is the reason why we have this vaccine mandate in place.”
> 
> BC has 9,229 base beds in its healthcare system and 8,817 are currently filled, with 410 of 2,553 surge beds currently being used as well.
> In critical care, 440 of 510 base beds are currently occupied, as are 25 of 218 surge beds.
> 
> Dix said “we are exceptionally busy,” and that these numbers reflect all the actions being used to manage the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the healthcare system.
> 
> That includes the 67 people in critical care that have been transferred out of Northern Health, mostly to Vancouver Island, and base bed capacity being over 100% in Interior Health at the moment.
> 
> The health minister added that it continues to be unvaccinated COVID-19 patients that make up the majority of people in critical care due to the virus.
> 
> At this time, 133 of 155 people in critical care due to COVID-19 are unvaccinated, which includes 42 of 43 people under the age of 50.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Significant and solemn day’: Nearly 6,000 BC healthcare workers fired or suspended without pay
> 
> 
> Today is a monumental day for British Columbia’s healthcare system.    Across the province, nearly 6,000 healthcare workers are being fired.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kamloopsbcnow.com


Six months to go from "front line heroes!" to "burn the heretics!". That's gotta be some kind of record.


----------



## McG

daftandbarmy said:


> I doubt it. We probably don't have a fraction of the numbers of skilled medical professionals needed to fill those jobs IIRC:
> 
> 
> ‘Significant and solemn day’: Nearly 6,000 BC healthcare workers fired or suspended without pay​


Based on the relatively small sample size of the "I'm not getting vax'ed" health workers that I've met, I would not be surprised to learn that a disproportionate number of these healthcare workers are not skilled medical professionals so much as they are administrators, orderlies, janitors, and stock-keepers.  This may be less of a healthcare crisis and more of an employment opportunity for recent high school graduates.


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> Based on the relatively small sample size of the "I'm not getting vax'ed" health workers that I've met, I would not be surprised to learn that a disproportionate number of these healthcare workers are not skilled medical professionals so much as they are administrators, orderlies, janitors, and stock-keepers.  This may be less of a healthcare crisis and more of an employment opportunity for recent high school graduates.



Nope. It's the full range apparently:


Hundreds of unvaccinated Island Health workers fired for missing deadline​

Of those workers, 119,627 have received two or more doses while 2,626 remain partially vaccinated. However, 4,090 healthcare workers in B.C. remain unvaccinated.

Within Island Health, 678 workers are not vaccinated, representing just three per cent of the total workforce of 23,000 workers.

*That includes nurses, doctors, care aides, and those working in administration.*

While 97 per cent of doctors working in hospitals and clinics run by the health authorities are vaccinated, the province is working to extend the vaccine mandate to include those working in private practices, according to the President of Doctors of BC, Dr. Matthew Chow.









						Hundreds of unvaccinated Island Health workers fired for missing deadline
					

Hundreds of unvaccinated Island Health workers were fired for missing the October deadline, but they can be re-instated if they get vaccinated.




					www.cheknews.ca


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:


> Where there is anarchy there is opertunity.


Might not be that dramatic.

For now, it's a suspension. Still weeks away from anyone getting fired. At least with the employer I am familiar with. YMMV



> After the unpaid suspension, on December 13, if staff do not provide proof that they are fully vaccinated, their employment will be terminated for cause as they will have chosen not to comply with the mandatory COVID-19 vaccination policy.


----------



## Eaglelord17

PuckChaser said:


> Thank you Healthcare heroes, now don't let the door hit you on the way out, you filthy creatures.


Got the Knights Templar treatment, one day your the hero, next day your being hung.


mariomike said:


> Might not be that dramatic.
> 
> For now, it's a suspension. Still weeks away from anyone getting fired. At least with the employer I am familiar with. YMMV


They better provide severance to anyone fired. This is the government changing the terms of employment. If the employee refuses to abide by the new terms they better be given their severance like anyone else fired from a job.


----------



## HiTechComms

Eaglelord17 said:


> Got the Knights Templar treatment, one day your the hero, next day your being hung.
> 
> They better provide severance to anyone fired. This is the government changing the terms of employment. If the employee refuses to abide by the new terms they better be given their severance like anyone else fired from a job.


Under common law you are not allowed to change the terms of employment after the employee started. Master Servant relationship is pretty heavily codified. Granted this doesn't change if you have a vaccine clause in the original contract.  

Yes I believe you would be able to sue on these grounds and be eligible for severance and its not just a normal severance either. In addition to certain conditions such as position and economic outlook you can sue for much higher amounts. The more skilled you are the more you can demand and you will get it. Its not unheard of to get 3-7 times more then what is actually under the law. Employees are well protected under Canadian labour law. I would get a labour lawyer right away.


----------



## mariomike

Eaglelord17 said:


> They better provide severance to anyone fired. This is the government changing the terms of employment. If the employee refuses to abide by the new terms they better be given their severance like anyone else fired from a job.


A labour lawyer said, "Unionized employees will have to look to their union reps for their rights."








						Employment lawyer on terminations for unvaccinated Toronto workers - Samfiru Tumarkin LLP
					

Employment lawyer Chantel Goldsmith joins Kelly Cutrara on Global News Radio 640 Toronto to discuss city employee rights and vaccine mandates.




					stlawyers.ca
				




 Whatever they are.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Wonder how many of those workers haven't even showed up since the pandemic began?    Probably a cleansing of dead wood anyways....


----------



## kkwd

I was following this thread from a distance but I am wondering if it is worth it anymore, it is just getting too silly for words.


----------



## mariomike

I guess it


Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Wonder how many of those workers haven't even showed up since the pandemic began?


Or, maybe some did not get to sit at home during Covid,  and are ready, willing ( and financially able ) to take an unpaid vacation?

They can get vaxxed and be back on the job in time for the stat holiday pay.


One union official is telling his unvaccinated members to report for duty on Monday anyway, in spite of the mandate.


----------



## Remius

Ottawa Police are going to do rapid testing 3 times a week for unvaccinated officers.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> Ottawa Police are going to do rapid testing 3 times a week for unvaccinated officers.



With a bog brush


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> Ottawa Police are going to do rapid testing 3 times a week for unvaccinated officers.


Less accurate known for false negatives and false positives. I hope the OPS are charging the officers for the kits.


----------



## brihard

I'll be curious to see how that plays out. Both the mayor and the chair of the Police Services Board have said they should be fully vaccinated. But then again, OPS is a total dumpster fire over the past few years.


----------



## Remius

It’s not playing out well for sure.  Taxpayers don’t want to be paying for these tests.  Or the potential sick leave if an officer comes down with COVID.  The Chief has a PR nightmare on his hands now.  city Council rarely agrees on anything and they are all unanimously calling this into question.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> It’s not playing out well for sure.  Taxpayers don’t want to be paying for these tests.  Or the potential sick leave if an officer comes down with COVID.  The Chief has a PR nightmare on his hands now.  city Council rarely agrees on anything and they are all unanimously calling this into question.



All OPS members (uniform and civilian) already get up to 595 hours of income protected sick leave a year before they get shunted over to private long term disability insurance. That can be a lot of hours to backfill with overtime if someone get ill. All the moreso if it was easily avoidable.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> All OPS members (uniform and civilian) already get up to 595 hours of income protected sick leave a year before they get shunted over to private long term disability insurance.


Sick Bank is better. Nine month gratuity when you retire after 35 years of service.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Sick Bank is better. Nine month gratuity when you retire after 35 years of service.


IMHO, any sick leave that incentivizes someone to come to work sick because their sick leave can have a cash value is flawed. Sick leave should be structured specifically to reduce barriers to taking time off for illness. Ideally, for any long term cases this should be paired with prompt and effective but conscientious case / disability management.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> brihard said:
> 
> 
> 
> All OPS members (uniform and civilian) already get up to 595 hours of income protected sick leave a year before they get shunted over to private long term disability insurance.
Click to expand...




brihard said:


> IMHO, any sick leave that incentivizes someone to come to work sick because their sick leave can have a cash value is flawed.



The employer tried to take that negotiated retirement benefit away.

Giving up nine months of retirement gratuity would be even more "flawed", IMHO.  

After I retired, members hired after July 31, 2009 will no longer receive a cash value gratuity when they retire.

Members hired before that date still receive their gratuity.
35 years = nine months pay.


> Accumulation of Sick Leave
> The unused portion of an employee's sick leave shall accrue for their future benefit.



Toronto Police also receive their gratuity. So do our firefighters.








						Toronto police retain sick pay perk that’s vanishing for others
					

While employees around the province are losing bankable sick pay, the last police contract, negotiated under Rob Ford, kept the valuable perk.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## HiTechComms

How come there is no Recovered or Natural Immunity clause. All the science out there seems to have established that Natural Immunity is superior to the jab.


----------



## Mick

HiTechComms said:


> How come there is no Recovered or Natural Immunity clause. All the science out there seems to have established that Natural Immunity is superior to the jab.


Feel free to post a credible source for "all the science out there"...


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> How come there is no Recovered or Natural Immunity clause. All the science out there seems to have established that Natural Immunity is superior to the jab.



Um... no:

Myth: We don’t need the vaccine because the recovery rate from COVID-19 is high and natural immunity is better​While it’s true that most people who get COVID-19 don’t become seriously sick, this still means that a lot of people do, and many have died.
Older people are more likely to become seriously sick, but some younger people do too. There’s no way to know how you will respond to the virus.

We don’t yet know how long you might be naturally immune if you get sick and then recover from COVID-19. We also don’t know how long you might be immune after you’ve had the vaccine. Vaccines can give different levels of protection compared with natural immunity. But we need more research to fully understand this. 

The safest way to get protected is to get vaccinated.









						COVID-19 vaccine myths busted | Babylon Health
					






					www.babylonhealth.com


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> How come there is no Recovered or Natural Immunity clause. All the science out there seems to have established that Natural Immunity is superior to the jab.


“All the science out there” says that, eh?


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> Um... no:
> 
> Myth: We don’t need the vaccine because the recovery rate from COVID-19 is high and natural immunity is better​While it’s true that most people who get COVID-19 don’t become seriously sick, this still means that a lot of people do, and many have died.
> Older people are more likely to become seriously sick, but some younger people do too. There’s no way to know how you will respond to the virus.
> 
> We don’t yet know how long you might be naturally immune if you get sick and then recover from COVID-19. We also don’t know how long you might be immune after you’ve had the vaccine. Vaccines can give different levels of protection compared with natural immunity. But we need more research to fully understand this.
> 
> The safest way to get protected is to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine myths busted | Babylon Health
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.babylonhealth.com


Who is this Babylon-health? Are they legit cause it looks like a some online health selling service.



			https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf
		

Study from Isreal which is one of the leading vaccinated populations.

Since the science is changing on the Vaccine from well you are immune and you cannot spread corona to now being, you can spread and you are not immune I think its worth investigating all science angles.


----------



## daftandbarmy

HiTechComms said:


> Who is this Babylon-health? Are they legit cause it looks like a some online health selling service.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf
> 
> 
> Study from Isreal which is one of the leading vaccinated populations.
> 
> Since the science is changing on the Vaccine from well you are immune and you cannot spread corona to now being, you can spread and you are not immune I think its worth investigating all science angles.



Dr. Bonnie's take on that 'immunity' thing:

“It’s a pandemic for a reason. We simply do not have the natural immunity to a new virus,” she said. “In some ways, we have to have more humility when we are facing a new viral infection.”









						Unvaccinated: The implications of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy
					

As the number of people in B.C. getting their first, and second, doses continues to grow there are still a sizable number of people choosing not to be vaccinated.




					vancouversun.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

There is as many authorities for as there are against, on any number of covid points. Some get much coverage from the MSM, others not so much, or at all. You can stand all day pissing against the wall, but in the end, the squeaky wheel gets the grease and airplay. It'll be years or never before we know which side is right. Arguing who is right and who is wrong is a mugs game. The part that amazes me is the amount of Doctors and nurses that are refusing to take the shot. The most misused phrase to come out of this is "The science is settled." But hey, it worked for climate change, right?


----------



## HiTechComms

daftandbarmy said:


> Dr. Bonnie's take on that 'immunity' thing:
> 
> “It’s a pandemic for a reason. We simply do not have the natural immunity to a new virus,” she said. “In some ways, we have to have more humility when we are facing a new viral infection.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated: The implications of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy
> 
> 
> As the number of people in B.C. getting their first, and second, doses continues to grow there are still a sizable number of people choosing not to be vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouversun.com


That is not a scientific argument that is an appeal to emotions, which is a common tactic used by political actors. Please spare me the "your killing grandma", "saves one life" or "think of the children".  That is not an argument that's just manipulation.

Please cite me a study that she has published that says otherwise. Please stop citing garbage opinion pieces out of all the places the SUN.

Dr. Bonnie and BC health. I actually was exposed to COVID and I wanted a test and I was denied. Why because I had no symptoms. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.
There is nothing wrong with actually looking at the data and all the science instead of just one avenue. Science is supposed to be about evidence and theories not just what a political body pushes.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

HiTechComms said:


> Since the science is changing on the Vaccine from well you are immune and you cannot spread corona to now being, you can spread and you are not immune I think its worth investigating all science angles.


Since you dodged the last request of you let's try this one.  Show me one article that has that said the vaccine makes you immune.


----------



## PMedMoe

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Since you dodged the last request of you let's try this one.  Show me one article that has that said the vaccine makes you immune.





HiTechComms said:


> Since the science is changing on the Vaccine from well you are immune and you cannot spread corona to now being, you can spread and you are not immune I think its worth investigating all science angles.



Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that myself...


----------



## HiTechComms

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Since you dodged the last request of you let's try this one.  Show me one article that has that said the vaccineakes you immune.


I never said that, I simply stated the political actors have claimed that covid vaccine makes you immune. They have been back tracking this for a year and a half. Two minutes of googling will produce results. Dr Fauci has made several statements that have been walked back. 

In addition my argument isn't about the vaccine, its about actual science. If you are so focused on getting that answer maybe you should do your own research.  Lets look at all the evidence and lets look at all the options and not just hey get the jab because.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:


> Dr. Bonnie and BC health. I actually was exposed to COVID and I wanted a test and I was denied. Why because I had no symptoms. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.


I don't know about B.C.. But, Dr. Henry is OK in my book.

Dr. Henry led the Emergency Services Unit and the Communicable Disease Liaison Unit at Toronto Dept. of Public Health ( DPH ).
In this capacity she was operational lead of the response to the SARS and H1N1 outbreaks in Toronto.


			https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1723899459965


----------



## HiTechComms

mariomike said:


> I don't know about B.C.. But, Dr. Henry is OK in my book.
> 
> Dr. Henry led the Emergency Services Unit and the Communicable Disease Liaison Unit Toronto Dept. of Public Health ( DPH ).
> In this capacity she was operational lead of the response to the SARS and H1N1 outbreaks in Toronto.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1723899459965


I am very skeptical of any one that denies tests. I did the right thing but the system did not and she is in charge of it.


----------



## mariomike

HiTechComms said:


> I am very skeptical of any one that denies tests. I did the right thing but the system did not and she is in charge of it.


I do not doubt you did the right thing. But, Dr. Henry had a very good reputation with us back then. 

You know the situation in B.C. better than I do.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:


> I never said that, I simply stated the political actors have claimed that covid vaccine makes you immune.



Really???



HiTechComms said:


> *Since the science is changing on the Vaccine* from well you are immune and you cannot spread corona to now being, you can spread and you are not immune I think its worth investigating all science angles.



So which is it?  The science or the "political actors"?


----------



## HiTechComms

PMedMoe said:


> Really???
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it?  The science or the "political actors"?


Science as: Scientific method.
Not Political actors look at our "version of science" sponsored by some corporation.

All scientists need to be heard not just those that are sponsored by the state or a corporation. Best way to defeat bad ideas is to expose them not censor them because it just ends up in conspiracy theories.  Now you have two sets of whackos at polar ends.

Maybe in 5 years we will actually know the real picture because it seems everything right now is a knee jerk reaction.

This is tiresome. There is no nuance on the internet. What ever not my monkeys not my circus.


----------



## PMedMoe

HiTechComms said:


> Science as: Scientific method.
> Not Political actors look at our "version of science" sponsored by some corporation.
> 
> All scientists need to be heard not just those that are sponsored by the state or a corporation. Best way to defeat bad ideas is to expose them not censor them because it just ends up in conspiracy theories.  Now you have two sets of whackos at polar ends.
> 
> Maybe in 5 years we will actually know the real picture because it seems everything right now is a knee jerk reaction.
> 
> This is tiresome. There is no nuance on the internet. What ever not my monkeys not my circus.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected.   

Not my circus either but there sure are a lot of clowns here.


----------



## QV

The country needs a dose of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis to battle COVID-19
					

Florida has the lowest COVID-19 case rate in the country. They did it without vaccine mandates, without mask mandates in school and with no restrictions on businesses. Life simply went on.




					nypost.com
				





_Florida has the lowest COVID-19 case rate in the country. They did it without vaccine mandates, without mask mandates in school and with no restrictions on businesses. Life simply went on...

Over the summer, when Florida was experiencing a spike in cases, the media was wall-to-wall news about the numbers. Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis was a frequent target for the blame. His sensible moves, such as not forcing low-risk kids to wear masks, was treated as akin to murder by the media...

Florida is doing better in per-capita cases and deaths from COVID than states that put in universal mask mandates and lockdowns. But you won’t hear that from the media. Now that DeSantis’ strategy has worked, they have quietly moved on without acknowledging their predictions of doom were wrong._


----------



## PMedMoe

Florida has the lowest case rate??

Rate of coronavirus (COVID-19) cases in the United States as of October 29, 2021, by state - Florida ranks 7th _highest_ in total cases. I suppose they may have had a drop recently. 

Even if they are doing better now, what was the cost to no masking or restrictions?  Florida COVID


----------



## Brad Sallows

Pointless argument without numbers.  "some", "most", "many" - all just rhetorical bullshit.


----------



## hattrick72

I think the best quote of the last five pages is, "the safest way to gain immunity." What gives you the best immunity is the question.

Now, I'm not advocating that we go the route of the whole population gets immunity through infection. This would lead to more death in the general population as a good portion is old, frail or otherwise immunocompromised. However, why are we not testing for immunity, rather than sickness.

At the end of the day, vaccinated, immune, or unvaccinated, once the test is performed you are home waiting to go negative. If the issue is, safest workplace, I would argue an antibody is an antibody is an antibody. Immune or vaccinated you should be treated the same. Testing for immunity would also promote more vaccination after your system flushes it immunity or you have the noncurrent antibody.


----------



## hattrick72

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Since you dodged the last request of you let's try this one.  Show me one article that has that said the vaccine makes you immune.











						It's official: Vaccinated people don't spread COVID-19
					

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky this week declared that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus."




					www.google.ca
				












						CDC: Fully vaccinated people don’t spread COVID-19
					

People who are completely vaccinated have been advised to continue wearing masks and stay six feet apart to protect others. Now, a new study from the Cente




					www.consumeraffairs.com


----------



## suffolkowner

In general exposure to wild type virus should ellicit a greater immune response and associated long lasting immunity. I believe that there were two documented cases of vaccines delivering greater immunity than natural immunity. One of which is Tetanus and the other i think was HPV(but I'm not sure right now). The risk of natural immunity through exposure to live wild type virus should be obvious.


----------



## hattrick72

suffolkowner said:


> In general exposure to wild type virus should ellicit a greater immune response and associated long lasting immunity. I believe that there were two documented cases of vaccines delivering greater immunity than natural immunity. One of which is Tetanus and the other i think was HPV(but I'm not sure right now). The risk of natural immunity through exposure to live wild type virus should be obvious.


I agree.  I'm just pointing out that everyone will be exposed at some point. If you are vaccinated first, you will have a better initial response. However, once you are exposed and recover, you are as good or better off than someone who is only vaccinated. This doesn't mean, go crazy etc etc. To me, it means one we hit that 75% threshold, open up and let nature and science run their course. If your vaccine is for a virus that was 5-10 iterations ago, what good is it on the next exposure. By keeping everything closed off, that is what we are doing IMO. 

Alberta, tried that method and didn't fair particularly well, but that has more to do with a shit medical system and less to do with our capability while holding a forum of immunity. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> All OPS members (uniform and civilian) already get up to 595 hours of income protected sick leave a year before they get shunted over to private long term disability insurance. That can be a lot of hours to backfill with overtime if someone get ill. All the moreso if it was easily avoidable.


We’ll it looks like OPS is now going to require mandatory vaccinations.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> We’ll it looks like OPS is now going to require mandatory vaccinations.


As of January. That’s rather halfassed.


----------



## mariomike

It begins...

Hundreds of FDNY firefighters go on medical leave.








						Live updates: NYC's vaccine mandate deadline
					

Follow all the updates in our live blog.




					www.ny1.com
				












						‘Thousands’ in NYPD to avoid vaccine mandate with exemption applications
					

“Thousands” of unvaxxed NYPD’s employees will be able to avoid the vaccine mandate for now, after asking the department for a special accommodation.




					nypost.com


----------



## ModlrMike

The difference is that you are 10000 times more likely to die from the virus than the vaccine. Natural immunity (2% chance of death) vs induced immunity (0.0002% chance of death). The choice should be obvious.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> As of January. That’s rather halfassed.


It’s a bit of a joke yes.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> It’s a bit of a joke yes.


Does not take effect until Feb. 1


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-mandatory-vaccination-policy-1.6230518
		


Hopefully, there will not be an increase in sick time on 31 Jan.



> All OPS members (uniform and civilian) already get up to 595 hours of income protected sick leave a year


----------



## hattrick72

ModlrMike said:


> The difference is that you are 10000 times more likely to die from the virus than the vaccine. Natural immunity (2% chance of death) vs induced immunity (0.0002% chance of death). The choice should be obvious.


Where do you get your 2% and 0.0002% figures from?

I'm not advocating for people to go to COVID parties to get immunity. I just don't care who is our isn't vaccinated after enough shots have been given out to vaccinate 75%+ of the population. 

To me, once you build that immunity, regardless of source, you should be treated the same. Test for antibodies, if they are gone, no work until vaccine or infection. Vaccine would be the quickest path to work. Also, I'm sure antibodies disappear slower in some than others. So I doubt this kind of policy would put people out of work the way vaccine mandates do. 

I also understand asymptomatic spread can kill people; however, we are not testing vaccinated population regularly to stop this spread now, so I don't think anyone really cares about that aspect.


----------



## McG

Fact check: No, natural immunity doesn’t replace vaccination, experts say - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Vaccines offer consistent protection against COVID-19 -- and unlike natural immunity, you don’t have to get sick to gain the protective benefits of a vaccine.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...
					

This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> Fact check: No, natural immunity doesn’t replace vaccination, experts say - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Vaccines offer consistent protection against COVID-19 -- and unlike natural immunity, you don’t have to get sick to gain the protective benefits of a vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov



Pffft… probably just gub-mint spin doctoring!

Meanwhile, in Newmarket…

COVID-19 sweeps through Newmarket men's hockey league​








						COVID-19 sweeps through Newmarket men's hockey league
					

A COVID-19 outbreak has left York and Simcoe Region residents shocked and confused




					www.thestar.com


----------



## hattrick72

McG said:


> Fact check: No, natural immunity doesn’t replace vaccination, experts say - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Vaccines offer consistent protection against COVID-19 -- and unlike natural immunity, you don’t have to get sick to gain the protective benefits of a vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 After COVID-19...
> 
> 
> This report describes COVID-19 reinfection among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons in Kentucky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


I agree that vaccination ensures you get the proper dosing of a virus to develop a stronger immunity, than you would as an asymptomatic carrier. However, if you still have antibodies in your system, you are still protected. The key is identifying infection, asymptomatic and symptomatic, separating yourself from society until you are negative. Once the antibodies are gone, you have a bridge to cross. 

To me, the problem is we are not treating possible infection within the vaccinated community serious enough. We do not require the same testing regime unvaccinated are required to participate in and that is a mistake in my opinion. 

I do support a person's right to choose vaccination and I do not believe we should be limiting their ability to make money within society. Within a military context, I change my stance to vaccinated or get out, for obvious reasons. 

The reason I don't believe in strong arm policies boils down to the transparency of how this situation has unfolded. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1430589141344034816
This is one example, have we had enough time to research everything? 

I understand that the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, but that doesn't mean we should be suffocating a portion of our population to get a result when there are far superior methods to ensuring everyone's safety that doesn't involve throwing people to the street.


----------



## PMedMoe

Maybe don't get your info from a clearly biased group.   

*Health Freedom Idaho* is an anti-vaccine group that also opposes health regulations, such as mask requirement and restrictions on the operation of businesses due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  Health Freedom Idaho - Wikipedia

Or from this doctor:

Dr. Ryan Cole claims mRNA vaccines cause cancer and autoimmune diseases, but the lead author of the paper on which Cole based that claim told us there is no evidence mRNA vaccines cause those ailments.    Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines

Idaho State Board of Medicine called to investigate Dr. Ryan Cole by medical leaders

Washington medical board investigating Idaho doctor for COVID-19 misinformation


----------



## hattrick72

PMedMoe said:


> Maybe don't get your info from a clearly biased group.
> 
> *Health Freedom Idaho* is an anti-vaccine group that also opposes health regulations, such as mask requirement and restrictions on the operation of businesses due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  Health Freedom Idaho - Wikipedia
> 
> Or from this doctor:
> 
> Dr. Ryan Cole claims mRNA vaccines cause cancer and autoimmune diseases, but the lead author of the paper on which Cole based that claim told us there is no evidence mRNA vaccines cause those ailments.    Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines
> 
> Idaho State Board of Medicine called to investigate Dr. Ryan Cole by medical leaders
> 
> Washington medical board investigating Idaho doctor for COVID-19 misinformation


Wikipedia? 

The two said the basis for their complaint is not Cole's statements or views. Rather, their complaint stems from Cole claiming "he has treated patients 'from Florida to California'" by prescribing Ivermectin.

Washington state is investigating for the prescription of ivermectin as well. 

The doctor and his family are vaccinated. 

Also, I don't believe he said the vaccines cause cancer. His claim is that the vaccine lowers the T-cells responsible for attacking other viruses and cancer cells etc. 

If you run a practice and you see an increase in specific cancers and they are affecting people at a younger age than it is supposed to. Do you sit their quietly, or do you bring it to the public's attention and ask, are we researching this for possible causality?  I would assume he tried through other channels first. 

I don't believe people throw away good careers without having a decent payday, and I don't see any paydays coming in for those that are speaking out. There are however large paydays for those that go on TV and support one narrative without presenting any other side. Maybe it is for fear of discouraging vaccination and that is an outcome worthy of hiding some of the pertinent information.


----------



## mariomike

hattrick72 said:


> Wikipedia?


References here,








						Health Freedom Idaho - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






> I do not believe we should be limiting their ability to make money within society.



For those unwilling to give up their "freedom" to infect others, job boards for the unvaccinated have emerged.









						In-Depth: Job boards for non-vaccinated people emerge as vaccine mandates take effect
					

As vaccine mandates take effect, some people will find themselves looking for jobs. ABC 10News Reporter Jared Aarons takes an In-Depth look at their options, and new websites trying to connect non-vaccinated people to employers without mandates.




					www.10news.com
				




​


----------



## hattrick72

mariomike said:


> References here,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health Freedom Idaho - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those unwilling to give up their "freedom" to infect others, job boards for the unvaccinated have emerged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In-Depth: Job boards for non-vaccinated people emerge as vaccine mandates take effect
> 
> 
> As vaccine mandates take effect, some people will find themselves looking for jobs. ABC 10News Reporter Jared Aarons takes an In-Depth look at their options, and new websites trying to connect non-vaccinated people to employers without mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.10news.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Every reference is a news article. 

So, who infects more people, naturally immune people with the correct antibodies, vaccinated immune people with antibodies, people with natural and vaccine immunity, or other?

Wikipedia isn't worth much. I'm sure as a PMed they would have access to web of science, Scopus etc and they could find something that is peer reviewed and worth sharing. 

The labeling of people for different beliefs, culture, or views is a little too fascist for me.


----------



## kkwd

A report was published Friday in the Lancet regarding viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated. Looking at this paragraph I am wondering what will actually prevent the transmission of the Delta variant.


> “Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures,” the study said.



Vaccinated just as likely to spread delta variant within household as unvaccinated: study


----------



## Quirky

hattrick72 said:


> I do support a person's right to choose vaccination and I do not believe we should be limiting their ability to make money within society.



Choices have consequences. My choice was to get vaccinated and move on with my life knowing that I may have the most slightest chance of getting side affects from the vaccine. Others choose not to get vaccinated and face job-loss and a higher chance of getting sick. Life is all about choices and it’s up to you to decide which consequences you are prepared to live with. It’s no one’s fault but your own.


----------



## mariomike

hattrick72 said:


> Every reference is a news article.


Which is why they are called "references".

If you have a problem with what PMedMoe posted, you can take it up with her.



PMedMoe said:


> *Health Freedom Idaho* is an anti-vaccine group that also opposes health regulations, such as mask requirement and restrictions on the operation of businesses due to the COVID-19 pandemic.  Health Freedom Idaho - Wikipedia





hattrick72 said:


> So, who infects more people, naturally immune people with the correct antibodies, vaccinated immune people with antibodies, people with natural and vaccine immunity, or other?



I did not go to medical school. I doubt you did either.

Which is why I only replied to this,



> I do not believe we should be limiting their ability to make money within society.





> As vaccine mandates take effect, people who have not gotten a COVID-19 vaccine will begin to lose their jobs, and experts say they'll have a difficult time finding a new place to work.





> The labeling of people for different beliefs, culture, or views is a little too fascist for me.



Whatever one's "firmly held beliefs" may be, you don't have to change them.

But, an employer may change your employment.


----------



## hattrick72

mariomike said:


> Which is why they are called "references".
> 
> If you have a problem with what PMedMoe posted, you can take it up with her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not go to medical school. I doubt you did either.
> 
> Which is why I only replied to this,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever one's "firmly held beliefs" may be, you don't have to change them.
> 
> But, an employer may change your employment.


Media articles are not an appropriate reference. None of the articles I opened claimed the group is antivaccine, however, I didn't open them all. 

If the atmosphere were different and businesses were making the choice on their own to only let in vaccinated or fire unvaccinated, I would be more okay with it. I feel like there is more government pressure to leverage business to be the coercive force to enact a policy. Maybe I'm wrong, I have been wrong before. 

You don't need a medical degree to read a peer reviewed journal article or study. PMed would be far more efficient at finding an article worth reading that gets to the point, and I would read it. C19 is more in their wheelhouse than mine, but there isn't much effort to go past the taking points. This is what I find most disappointing. I don't have a strong stance on this subject; I am, however, choosing to be on the side that would raise fairly simple questions that should have simple answers. Not to be provoking, or rediculous, just to be an honest broker. Without discussion or discourse, how long before we go down a blind path that leads us over a cliff.


----------



## hattrick72

Quirky said:


> Choices have consequences. My choice was to get vaccinated and move on with my life knowing that I may have the most slightest chance of getting side affects from the vaccine. Others choose not to get vaccinated and face job-loss and a higher chance of getting sick. Life is all about choices and it’s up to you to decide which consequences you are prepared to live with. It’s no one’s fault but your own.


Hopefully you didn't choose to purchase an internal combustion engine vehicle in the last couple of years, because that could be a very expensive paper weight. Hopefully, you made the adult choice to get something more environmentally friendly that we will allow you to have on the road. If not, it is nobody's fault but your own, when we turn our focus on the impact individual choices have on the environment around us. 

Not the exact same thing as what is happening now. The point is, public policy shifts and we don't have much say over it. Nobody, including the PM would believe we would be in a position where he himself is enacting the policies we are today. Just look at how his position on vaccines has shifted in less than 18 months. 

The above is not far fetched and you probably fall in the 98% making the wrong choice for vehicle today.


----------



## Quirky

Comparing vaccines and car engines…..Jesus Christ lol wut.


----------



## hattrick72

Quirky said:


> Comparing vaccines and car engines…..Jesus Christ lol wut.


It is related to choice and the collective conscious of what is or is not acceptable anymore. 

The directions on what the government believes is acceptable for vaccine policy has changed drastically over the last 12-18 months. Other facets of life will also undergo drastic change in the next decade. The obvious one is personal transportation and the right to utilise it. Might not be a hard and fast rule, but there is no doubt the response to skyrocketing gas prices will be, they should've and still can transition to a new vehicle that is not dependent on fossil fuel, rather than open up more reserves.


----------



## McG

hattrick72 said:


> The directions on what the government believes is acceptable for vaccine policy has changed drastically over the last 12-18 months.


No.  What's been different over the last 12-18 months (as compared to the rest of your life) is that we have experienced a new deadly & highly contagious virus and we have a new vaccine.  That’s it. There are plenty of other mandatory vaccines, but a critical mass of the population receives these while young as a requirement to go to school and so we don’t need to care about the adults.  Because the vaccine is new, adults did not get it as kids. And because some adults seem to have a narcissistic belief that protecting friends & neighbours is an impediment to freedom, we need an adult forcing function similar to what already exists for kids.


----------



## Good2Golf

McG’s solid point can be correct at the same time hattrick’s about government policy rolling onwards is.  I get where httrick, you are coming from in general, but I’m tracking also where McG’s point about things being demonstrably beyond seasonal flu validates the overall
Intent of the Govt’s extend of action.


----------



## Remius

No one has yet to adequately explain to what end and how this is some sort of government attempt to curtail freedoms and hold onto some sort power long term.  Restrictions are being lifted slowly here and we are getting back to normal.  Hardly some power grab lol.  I had 60 kids come over for Halloween last night and it was good to see.  But maybe the big bad government wanted a halt to that last year for “reasons”.


----------



## mariomike

People can argue about freedom vs fascism.

Pretty simple where I used to work.

As of today, members who have not provided documentation to prove they have received both doses are suspended without pay.

On Dec. 13 "their employment will be terminated for cause."


----------



## Brad Sallows

> No one has yet to adequately explain to what end and how this is some sort of government attempt to curtail freedoms and hold onto some sort power long term.



Doesn't need to be "an attempt".  Governments do some new things during crises; they don't always dump all of them once the crisis is over.  The ratchet can move without anyone truly intending it should do so.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Doesn't need to be "an attempt".  Governments do some new things during crises; they don't always dump all of them once the crisis is over.  The ratchet can move without anyone truly intending it should do so.


Sure.  Like income tax.  But that’s not what the conspiracy types are saying are they now.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I won't use "what conspiracy types are saying" to pretend the problem doesn't exist.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> I won't use "what conspiracy types are saying" to pretend the problem doesn't exist.


Sure.  So what then?  What is big government planning?  And what are they implementing that couldn’t be done so even in normal times?


----------



## PMedMoe

hattrick72 said:


> Wikipedia isn't worth much. I'm sure as a PMed they would have access to web of science, Scopus etc and they could find something that is peer reviewed and worth sharing.



Says the person who posted a link from Twitter...   

I've been retired for over five years.  Besides, you think there's a peer reviewed article about Health Freedom Idaho??


----------



## hattrick72

PMedMoe said:


> Says the person who posted a link from Twitter...
> 
> I've been retired for over five years.  Besides, you think there's a peer reviewed article about Health Freedom Idaho??


No, however, you could probably find something related to vaccine immunity Vs natural with other information about the immunity half life.

That would be more in line with what the video was talking about. I'm not interested in shear campaigns by media.


----------



## hattrick72

McG said:


> No.  What's been different over the last 12-18 months (as compared to the rest of your life) is that we have experienced a new deadly & highly contagious virus and we have a new vaccine.  That’s it. There are plenty of other mandatory vaccines, but a critical mass of the population receives these while young as a requirement to go to school and so we don’t need to care about the adults.  Because the vaccine is new, adults did not get it as kids. And because some adults seem to have a narcissistic belief that protecting friends & neighbours is an impediment to freedom, we need an adult forcing function similar to what already exists for kids.


When I wrote about the pendulum swinging I misremembered a quote from the PM. He stated he didn't know if he would put his kids back in school, I remembered it as a question about vaccinating them.  

The government has changed their stance on their ability to force vaccination. They previously posted on their FAQ that this wouldn't be supported by Canadian law. 

Now it is "Canadian law". 

Not as big of a swing I thought it was last night, but a swing nonetheless.


----------



## Remius

hattrick72 said:


> When I wrote about the pendulum swinging I misremembered a quote from the PM. He stated he didn't know if he would put his kids back in school, I remembered it as a question about vaccinating them.
> 
> The government has changed their stance on their ability to force vaccination. They previously posted on their FAQ that this wouldn't be supported by Canadian law.
> 
> Now it is "Canadian law".
> 
> Not as big of a swing I thought it was last night, but a swing nonetheless.


What “law”exactly is forcing vaccination?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> What is big government planning?



Who knows?  Doesn't matter.  Easily discredited tinfoil-hat theories are red herrings - disproving an oddball conspiracy is no rebuttal whatsoever to things that arise approximately spontaneously.



> And what are they implementing that couldn’t be done so even in normal times?



Vax passports and travel restrictions, for example.

Naturally, vax passports will be ended wherever current case surges subside, and perhaps be reinstated (and removed) only as needed in future.  Naturally, all data collected will be destroyed as soon as no longer needed.  Naturally, no government or agency will try to leverage extraordinary policies to monkey-branch to some other pet project, such as mitigating climate change.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Who knows?  Doesn't matter.  Easily discredited tinfoil-hat theories are red herrings - disproving an oddball conspiracy is no rebuttal whatsoever to things that arise approximately spontaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> Vax passports and travel restrictions, for example.
> 
> Naturally, vax passports will be ended wherever current case surges subside, and perhaps be reinstated (and removed) only as needed in future.  Naturally, all data collected will be destroyed as soon as no longer needed.  Naturally, no government or agency will try to leverage extraordinary policies to monkey-branch to some other pet project, such as mitigating climate change.


What data on vax passports does government get that they already can get via other means?  Whether you’ve had a shot or not?  What data will they gather that isn’t already getting gathered?  

People carry a little thing called a smart phone that gathers far more data about ones privacy.  The irony is that those that cry that their privacy and info is compromised, do it quite willingly by using social media and the very tools they carry.    Heaven forbid they lose that luxury.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> What data on vax passports does government get that they already can get via other means?  Whether you’ve had a shot or not?  What data will they gather that isn’t already getting gathered?



Don't know; don't care.  Just because data have been gathered for one purpose by one group of users does not mean it may be accessed for other purposes by other users.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Don't know; don't care.  Just because data have been gathered for one purpose by one group of users does not mean it may be accessed for other purposes by other users.


You can say that about any data you are required to provide for anything.  Fill out a passport application?  Driver’s Licence?    Mortgage application?  

Welcome to society.  I accept that some live in paranoia, that’s their choice.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You can say that about any data you are required to provide for anything.



Yes, that's the whole point.  Data privacy.  That which is no longer needed is destroyed.  Likewise, public programs and extraordinary measures and regulations no longer needed are ended.  If anything hangs around, my point is proven and my concern is well-founded.

Government agencies are neither trustworthy nor secure against data breaches.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes, that's the whole point.  Data privacy.  That which is no longer needed is destroyed.  Likewise, public programs and extraordinary measures and regulations no longer needed are ended.  If anything hangs around, my point is proven and my concern is well-founded.
> 
> Government agencies are neither trustworthy nor secure against data breaches.


Ah but in the context of COVID, privacy is merely an excuse being touted by one side.  The loud side.  But safety will always trump privacy. 

Like you, they neither care nor know what information exactly is being gathered that isn’t already known to government.   Just “government bad”.  

They need a more convincing argument to be taken seriously.


----------



## QV

Brad Sallows said:


> Who knows?  Doesn't matter.  Easily discredited tinfoil-hat theories are red herrings - disproving an oddball conspiracy is no rebuttal whatsoever to things that arise approximately spontaneously.
> 
> 
> 
> Vax passports and travel restrictions, for example.
> 
> Naturally, vax passports will be ended wherever current case surges subside, and perhaps be reinstated (and removed) only as needed in future.  Naturally, all data collected will be destroyed as soon as no longer needed.  Naturally, no government or agency will try to leverage extraordinary policies to monkey-branch to some other pet project, such as mitigating climate change.



I may sound like a broken record, but I feel it's worth repeating; Trudeau did say they were going to apply all the lessons they learned from C19 to the climate crisis. What does that mean exactly? Travel restrictions, restrictions on type of vehicle one may own, probably a ban on gas powered yard equipment (like California just did)? Weekly kilometric limits? Not sure I would you put anything past this particular governing party.


----------



## PMedMoe

hattrick72 said:


> No, however, you could probably find something related to vaccine immunity Vs natural with other information about the immunity half life.



Here you go then:

COVID-19 vaccine gives 5 times the protection of 'natural immunity,' data show

US adults who previously had COVID-19 contracted the disease at more than five times the rate of those who were fully vaccinated, according to data published today in _Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.

COVID-19 natural immunity versus vaccination_

The data is clear: Natural immunity is not better. The COVID-19 vaccines create more effective and longer-lasting immunity than natural immunity from infection. 

More than a third of COVID-19 infections result in zero protective antibodies
Natural immunity fades faster than vaccine immunity 
Natural immunity alone is less than half as effective than natural immunity plus vaccination
Fact check: No, natural immunity doesn’t replace vaccination, experts say

Natural immunity will not protect you against COVID-19 as well as an mRNA vaccine, according to both experts and the research.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes, that's the whole point.  Data privacy.  That which is no longer needed is destroyed.  Likewise, public programs and extraordinary measures and regulations no longer needed are ended.  If anything hangs around, my point is proven and my concern is well-founded.
> 
> Government agencies are neither trustworthy nor secure against data breaches.


So your point is that any info given to gov't has the potential to be either misused or compromised?

In your view, is your vaccination status more valuable, or capable of more damage in "the wrong hands", than your SIN, credit card number, credit history, address, tax info, travel history, any other information submitted to any level of government/bank/car dealership/travel agency/family doctor/chiropractor/Amazon...?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> I may sound like a broken record, but I feel it's worth repeating; Trudeau did say they were going to apply all the lessons they learned from C19 to the climate crisis. What does that mean exactly? Travel restrictions, restrictions on type of vehicle one may own, probably a ban on gas powered yard equipment (like California just did)? Weekly kilometric limits? Not sure I would you put anything past this particular governing party.


Were these not all concerns and plans that were being proposed by the environmentalists before Covid and vaccine passports?  By a government that was elected on environmental policies before all of this? 

As for gas powered lawnmowers, you need to read what the legislation actually says.  They aren’t banned from being used.  But are banned from being sold in state as of 2024.  Lots of things get banned like certain baby strollers, pesticides and other things deemed dangerous ir the cause of whatever problems are identified.  Nothing stops you from the freedom of cutting your grass.  And how that is linked to Covid is beyond me lol.  But it highlights what people will link things to in an irrational manner.

So are there lessons to be learned in C19 that are applicable to the climate crisis?  Yes. 

 And I can name you a few.  but I fail to see how your vaccine status or info is relevant to any of it other than helping us to get out of this pandemic.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> So your point is that any info given to gov't has the potential to be either misused or compromised?



It's not the point; it's a fact that supports the point.  It's simply true that data (held by anyone) have the potential to be misused or compromised.  It's simply true that there have been several gross breaches of government-held and privately-held data for various reasons (eg. financial gain, political gain).  So it's prudent to limit data collection, and it's prudent to demand limited collection, retention, and exchange of data.  I get 40 or more scam phone calls a year peddling some nonsense about credit cards, income taxes, or computer tech support.  How fucking stupid would a person have to be to not assume that malign people are also seeking to subvert systems and people to gain access to data?



> In your view, is your vaccination status more valuable, or capable of more damage in "the wrong hands", than your SIN, credit card number, credit history, address, tax info, travel history, any other information submitted to any level of government/bank/car dealership/travel agency/family doctor/chiropractor/Amazon...?



Doesn't matter, and assumptions about what you think I (or any particular person) consent to are invalid.  Consenting to one thing is not consent to all things; the desire to have limits and rules for legitimate data collection implies that some legitimate data collection occurs, obviously.  Those who flourish "whatabout other data" should understand that it is about as compelling as the "honest man has nothing to fear" rhetorical bullshit.  There is no advantage gained in unnecessarily granting opportunities to bad actors.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> It's not the point; it's a fact that supports the point.  It's simply true that data (held by anyone) have the potential to be misused or compromised.  It's simply true that there have been several gross breaches of government-held and privately-held data for various reasons (eg. financial gain, political gain).  So it's prudent to limit data collection, and it's prudent to demand limited collection, retention, and exchange of data.  I get 40 or more scam phone calls a year peddling some nonsense about credit cards, income taxes, or computer tech support.  How fucking stupid would a person have to be to not assume that malign people are also seeking to subvert systems and people to gain access to data?
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter, and assumptions about what you think I (or any particular person) consent to are invalid.  Consenting to one thing is not consent to all things; the desire to have limits and rules for legitimate data collection implies that some legitimate data collection occurs, obviously.  Those who flourish "whatabout other data" should understand that it is about as compelling as the "honest man has nothing to fear" rhetorical bullshit.  There is no advantage gained in unnecessarily granting opportunities to bad actors.


The other side’s rhetorical BS is no better by the way. 

What is illegitimate about the current data being collected?  this data is being collected by consent. 

You yourself have pleaded ignorance and apathy to what information being collected.  Just that it is being collected. Information they already have so I’m not sure what your issue is. 

So here is the thing.  Let’s use the Federal Government,  they want all people to be vaccinated.  They can’t force it.  They also can’t force anyone to disclose it by law.  They also can’t go to the provinces and get that info.  So they are asking for attestations and people can choose to disclose or not disclose.  Meaning you are free to do it or not.  But that decision has consequences.

So the information the province has on an employee isn’t being shared with the feds.  The feds aren’t seeking it from their doctor  either.  It’s being given voluntarily within the parameters set in the context of safety over privacy.  Your privacy is protected.  But your job may not be as a result.  So in no case has your privacy been violated.  One way or another.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> The other side’s rhetorical BS is no better by the way.



So what?  How does that improve your arguments?



> What is illegitimate about the current data being collected?  this data is being collected by consent.



Again, "I don't care", by which I mean, "it is not relevant to the point".  Limited collection, limited retention, destruction when no longer needed.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> It's not the point; it's a fact that supports the point.  It's simply true that data (held by anyone) have the potential to be misused or compromised.  It's simply true that there have been several gross breaches of government-held and privately-held data for various reasons (eg. financial gain, political gain).  So it's prudent to limit data collection, and it's prudent to demand limited collection, retention, and exchange of data.  I get 40 or more scam phone calls a year peddling some nonsense about credit cards, income taxes, or computer tech support.  How fucking stupid would a person have to be to not assume that malign people are also seeking to subvert systems and people to gain access to data?
> Doesn't matter, and assumptions about what you think I (or any particular person) consent to are invalid.  Consenting to one thing is not consent to all things; the desire to have limits and rules for legitimate data collection implies that some legitimate data collection occurs, obviously.  Those who flourish "whatabout other data" should understand that it is about as compelling as the "honest man has nothing to fear" rhetorical bullshit.  There is no advantage gained in unnecessarily granting opportunities to bad actors.



No "assumptions about what _ think [you] consent to" were made - perhaps you missed the question mark.

Speaking of incorrect assumptions, has anyone on this forum stated that they don't believe that "malign people are seeking to subvert systems and people to gain access to data"?  

Of course, any and all data, transmitted and/or collected, are potentially at risk.

So you want to limit the amount of data collected, retained, and exchanged.  Ok, no argument here, let's be prudent.  I'm quite sure we have laws that deal with safeguarding personal information.

But Remius observed:


Remius said:



			No one has yet to adequately explain to what end and how this is some sort of government attempt to curtail freedoms and hold onto some sort power long term.  Restrictions are being lifted slowly here and we are getting back to normal.  Hardly some power grab lol.
		
Click to expand...


To which you replied:


Brad Sallows said:



			Doesn't need to be "an attempt".  Governments do some new things during crises; they don't always dump all of them once the crisis is over.  The ratchet can move without anyone truly intending it should do so.
		
Click to expand...


Has the government indicated it will retain any measures beyond the current crisis?  If not - rhetorical bullshit.



Brad Sallows said:



			Who knows?  Doesn't matter.  

Vax passports and travel restrictions, for example.

Naturally, vax passports will be ended wherever current case surges subside, and perhaps be reinstated (and removed) only as needed in future.  Naturally, all data collected will be destroyed as soon as no longer needed.  Naturally, no government or agency will try to leverage extraordinary policies to monkey-branch to some other pet project, such as mitigating climate change.
		
Click to expand...


Has the government indicated that it intends to retain vax passports, or travel restrictions beyond the current crisis?  If not - rhetorical bullshit.

In fact, travel restrictions are easing.



Brad Sallows said:



			Don't know; don't care.  Just because data have been gathered for one purpose by one group of users does not mean it may be accessed for other purposes by other users.
		
Click to expand...


Has the government indicated that it intends to use data collected in response to the current crisis in an illegal manner?  Has widespread misuse been reported?  If not - see above. 



Brad Sallows said:



			Yes, that's the whole point.  Data privacy.  That which is no longer needed is destroyed.  Likewise, public programs and extraordinary measures and regulations no longer needed are ended.  If anything hangs around, my point is proven and my concern is well-founded.

Government agencies are neither trustworthy nor secure against data breaches.
		
Click to expand...


To paraphrase: "I'm against the legal collection and use of data for legitimate, purposes, because the hypothetical potential for misuse exists."  As it does for every other public program.

There is no indication that any of these measures will "hang around", but apparently the mere possibility negates these extraordinary (and explicitly temporary) measures being taken whatsoever? 

Using that logic, what government program or service would ever be worth the risk?

Yes, any data sent and collected by any means is potentially at risk.  Yes, the government (any government) will need to collect data in order to function, including the administration of specific programs dealing with specific threats to the society it governs.  The same can be said for any entity that provides a service.  (That's not a whataboutism, that's a basic fact).

It's very easy to argue against limited, temporary measures taken in response to a very specific situation, by using broad, sweeping statements and hypothetical scenarios.  Who here wouldn't agree with the broad statement that "misuse of data is bad"?

Likewise, it's easy to dismiss the reality that data is collected for legitimate uses by governments and corporations each and every day as "whataboutism."

However, it seems only logical to wonder why the potential risks associated with routine, ongoing collection of personal data is acceptable, but the identical potential risks associated with targeted, temporary collection are so risky that any attempt to do so should be avoided._


----------



## Brad Sallows

_>Speaking of incorrect assumptions, has anyone on this forum stated that they don't believe that "malign people are seeking to subvert systems and people to gain access to data"? _

There's no assumption.  That's a rhetorical question to highlight the ridiculousness of asking "So your point is that any info given to gov't has the potential to be either misused or compromised?"



> Has the government indicated it will retain any measures beyond the current crisis?  If not - rhetorical bullshit.



"Indicate" reveals intent; the point is that there doesn't need to be any intent.  If you want to pick over stuff governments have said they're going to continue doing, that's a different discussion.



> To paraphrase: "I'm against the legal collection and use of data for legitimate, purposes, because the hypothetical potential for misuse exists."



Incorrect.  I'm against the collection of data which serve no bona fide business purpose, and against retention longer than necessary, because the actual potential for misuse exists.
_
_


> There is no indication that any of these measures will "hang around",



That, and everything after that, is yours to ponder as you wish.  My interest remains where it started in this detour: extraordinary measures sometimes hang around; no conspiracy theories or stated intentions are needed to explain governmental scope creep resulting from extraordinary measures; debunking conspiracy theories doesn't debunk the risk of scope creep (it's not an "either there is nothing, or there is a conspiracy" situation) or the wisdom of paying attention to challenge it when it happens.  Remius asked for examples; I gave a couple; Remius started a diversion into data privacy by asking a couple of questions.  One can hope that when the need for vax policing ends, governments will order the data (if not the schema and application(s)) destroyed; one can hope that if destruction is ordered, it will happen.  Surely no one would keep a copy of data a government has ordered destroyed.


----------



## HiTechComms

Science, Public Health Policy and the Law
					

Public Health Policy Initiative (PHPI) is a project of The Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge.




					www.publichealthpolicyjournal.com
				




Interesting new data review.



			https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe2d3ad957f.filesusr.com/ugd/adf864_2bd97450072f4364a65e5cf1d7384dd4.pdf
		


On another Note Novavax applied for license from Canada Health.

Novavax uses a protein based approach.









						Novavax Files for COVID-19 Vaccine Authorization with Health Canada and Completes Submission for Rolling Review to European Medicines Agency
					

Health Canada filing marks first protein-based COVID-19 vaccine submitted for authorization to regulatory authorities in Canada Submission of all modules required for regulatory review, including...




					ir.novavax.com
				




Looks interesting. Apparently its will be manufactured in Canada and the Gov has 52 million doses agreement.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> There's no assumption.  That's a rhetorical question to highlight the ridiculousness of asking "So your point is that any info given to gov't has the potential to be either misused or compromised?"



Once again, yes, any information transmitted to and collected by the govt has that potential.  You haven't answered why info collected and used in support of the COVID response is somehow more sensitive than all other data.



Brad Sallows said:


> "Indicate" reveals intent; the point is that there doesn't need to be any intent.  If you want to pick over stuff governments have said they're going to continue doing, that's a different discussion.



No need pick over anything.  Your argument is based on a hypothetical situation that may or may not occur, and hasn't yet.  You haven't demonstrated that the government is any more likely to misuse the subject information than any other data it collects.



Brad Sallows said:


> Incorrect.  I'm against the collection of data which serve no bona fide business purpose, and against retention longer than necessary, because the actual potential for misuse exists.



Has it been determined that vaccination status, or other information relating to preventing COVID / militating its effects has been misused?  Has it been determined the government will keep this data longer than any other data collected every day? 

Do you accept that some necessary risk exists in interaction between an individual and a service-providing entity? 



Brad Sallows said:


> That, and everything after that, is yours to ponder as you wish.  My interest remains where it started in this detour: extraordinary measures sometimes hang around; no conspiracy theories or stated intentions are needed to explain governmental scope creep resulting from extraordinary measures; debunking conspiracy theories doesn't debunk the risk of scope creep (it's not an "either there is nothing, or there is a conspiracy" situation) or the wisdom of paying attention to challenge it when it happens.



Yes, extraordinary measures can potentially remain as a result of crises.  Luckily, we have an independent judiciary where these measures can be tested.  Do you have a foundational example of an unnecessary or illegal measure that still exists today, that resulted from an earlier crisis?

You'll note I haven't mentioned "conspiracy theories" nor have I denied the possibility of scope creep - in fact, I acknowledge that risks are present, as they are with all data collection by government (and others), which you dismiss as 'whataboutism.' 

But again, you haven't explained why targeted, temporary data collection is to be considered so much riskier than the ongoing, routine, data collection that occurs daily.



Brad Sallows said:


> Remius asked for examples; I gave a couple; Remius started a diversion into data privacy by asking a couple of questions.  One can hope that when the need for vax policing ends, governments will order the data (if not the schema and application(s)) destroyed; one can hope that if destruction is ordered, it will happen.  Surely no one would keep a copy of data a government has ordered destroyed.



How do your examples of vax passports and travel restrictions - which, again, are progressively easing - address Remius' observation that current measures DO NOT amount to a government power grab?

One can certainly hope that once the data is no longer required, it will be disposed of appropriately - I hope so too.  For all you and I know, it will be...or it won't be...

... but the mere potential for misuse cannot automatically disqualify a course of action, can it?  Or should it?

Again, you could apply this logic to any program or service, provided by any entity imaginable - nothing would ever get done.

Edited for clarity


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You haven't answered why info collected and used in support of the COVID response is somehow more sensitive than all other data.



The question is irrelevant.  The principle is that data no longer needed are destroyed.



> Has it been determined that vaccination status, or other information relating to preventing COVID / militating its effects has been misused?



What part of "potential" is unclear?



> Again, you could apply this logic to any program or service, provided by any entity imaginable - nothing would ever get done.



Your logic, not mine.  By my principles, data are collected and used for as long as necessary.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> By my principles, data are collected and used for as long as necessary.


Agree.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Mick said:


> How do your examples of vax passports and travel restrictions - which, again, are progressively easing - address Remius' observation that current measures DO NOT amount to a government power grab?



I know the above was addressed to @Brad Sallows but I'm interested to hear about travel restrictions "progressively easing"? In the context of vax passports, this is only just starting up so it's not easing. Travel restrictions are easing for those who are vaccinated, is that what you mean? I don't see how that evidence that vaxports are only a temporary measure.

The problem is that people don't trust the government because they keep flip-flopping or outright lying. In Ontario for example, I believe Doug Ford said he wouldn't do a lockdown. Then when he did one, he definitely said "two weeks to flatten the curve" which in my view was clearly a lie since the same day the courts were shut down for ten weeks and the Cadet program suspended indefinitely. This clearly showed that elements of government knew this was not going to last a mere two weeks, but others and the media lied about it to prevent people getting upset. For a long time PM Trudeau was quite emphatic there would be no vaccine passport, yet here we are. Same with Premier Ford, he kept saying no split society longer than the PM but eventually flip-flopped.

Also, vaccines were going to be voluntary for a long time. Up until August 18th the DND website had an FAQ very clearly stating it would be voluntary and not mandatory. Now it is mandatory.

With the constant changes and contradictions it is little wonder that some people have no trust in these measures being temporary, especially if the government says they're temporary. They could stick around like the "temporary emergency" income tax.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Wait and see what happens when the percentage vaccinated plotted against time flattens.


----------



## Mick

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I know the above was addressed to @Brad Sallows but I'm interested to hear about travel restrictions "progressively easing"? In the context of vax passports, this is only just starting up so it's not easing. Travel restrictions are easing for those who are vaccinated, is that what you mean? I don't see how that evidence that vaxports are only a temporary measure.



Border restrictions have loosened over the summer, and continue to loosen.

Government-issued travel advisories against non-essential travel have been lifted.

Flight bans from specific countries have been lifted.

More Canadian airports are accepting international arrivals.

Airlines are re-hiring and increasing capacity.

Yes, these restrictions are easing for those who are following public health guidance and have chosen to be vaccinated.

As of today, over 84% of eligible Canadians have chosen to become vaccinated.  See link below.






						COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker
					

Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.



					covid19tracker.ca
				




Time will tell if the vaccine passport requirement is permanent or not.



LittleBlackDevil said:


> The problem is that people don't trust the government because they keep flip-flopping or outright lying. In Ontario for example, I believe Doug Ford said he wouldn't do a lockdown. Then when he did one, he definitely said "two weeks to flatten the curve" which in my view was clearly a lie since the same day the courts were shut down for ten weeks and the Cadet program suspended indefinitely.



I fully agree, messaging has been inconsistent.  

In my opinion, this is largely due to:

a) a new, highly contagious virus which wasn't and isn't yet fully understood; and

b) competing priorities between public health and political considerations




LittleBlackDevil said:


> This clearly showed that elements of government knew this was not going to last a mere two weeks, but others and the media lied about it to prevent people getting upset. For a long time PM Trudeau was quite emphatic there would be no vaccine passport, yet here we are. Same with Premier Ford, he kept saying no split society longer than the PM but eventually flip-flopped.



Here in Alberta, measures were loosened and re-tightened many times...it's inconvenient and frustrating, but in my mind, at least demonstrates that the government has tried to remove these temporary restrictions and regulations when it believed it was safe to do so.

Obviously, new variants have complicated things.



LittleBlackDevil said:


> Also, vaccines were going to be voluntary for a long time. Up until August 18th the DND website had an FAQ very clearly stating it would be voluntary and not mandatory. Now it is mandatory.
> 
> With the constant changes and contradictions it is little wonder that some people have no trust in these measures being temporary, especially if the government says they're temporary. They could stick around like the "temporary emergency" income tax.



It's been about 20 years since BOTC - are COVID-19 shots currently the only vaccines CAF members are required to receive?

Again, I'm not sure how long the vax passport will be required, or if it will go away.  But other restrictions like indoor dining capacity, restrictions on playing sports etc are all loosening as vaccination rates increase.

It's apparent to a clear majority of Canadians that following public health guidance and choosing to be vaccinated is the most effective way towards loosening COVID-19 related restrictions.


----------



## Bob Sakomano

Mick said:


> It's been about 20 years since BOTC - are COVID-19 shots currently the only vaccines CAF members are required to receive?



The minimum vaccines to be "green" in an APRV are defined in 6643-12 Core Health Protection Recommendations:

Measles/mumps/rubella
Tetanus and diphtheria
Polio
Hep A
Hep B
Varicella
Pertussis

If you didn't have these, you would APRV "red" and could face similar issues as not having the COVID-19 vaccine today (e.g. "red" for tasks, training, deployment, etc.). Up to the chain of command to decide. Same with not having deployment-specific recommendations, e.g. Yellow Fever for an at-risk area: you'd be "red" and could end up not going.


----------



## HiTechComms

I think its to early to tell. I think restrictions are gone come back. Numbers from Vermont and Israel are not promising.

Vaccine passports are here to stay. There is nothing more permanent than a temporary government measure.


----------



## dapaterson

Stay classy, Alberta.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tracy-allard-covid-protest-1.6234290?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


----------



## QV

dapaterson said:


> Stay classy, Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tracy-allard-covid-protest-1.6234290?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


Way to paint over 4 million people with that brush for the actions of one or a few.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Sweeping negative generalizations are something I try to avoid (unsuccessfully, but mostly).  Clashes with my self-righteous stands on things like various forms of ill conduct.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

dapaterson said:


> Stay classy, Alberta.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/tracy-allard-covid-protest-1.6234290?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


So if some idiot does that in the Byward Market I can call everyone in Ottawa 'classless"?    Lets have perspective here...


----------



## QV

Ontario and Quebec backdown on mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-covid19-canada-world-nov3-2021-1.6235213
		





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mandatory-vaccination-new-health-workers-1.6235760


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> Ontario and Quebec backdown on mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-covid19-canada-world-nov3-2021-1.6235213
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/mandatory-vaccination-new-health-workers-1.6235760


Disappointing that the provincial government should abrogate its responsibilities, but at least the vast majority of Ontario hospitals have proceeded with their own vaccine requirement for employment. At this point it’s not like many of us are surprised the Ford government would shirk its reaponsibilities in this public health emergency…


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Disappointing that the provincial government should abrogate its responsibilities, but at least the vast majority of Ontario hospitals have proceeded with their own vaccine requirement for employment. At this point it’s not like many of us are surprised the Ford government would shirk its reaponsibilities in this public health emergency…


At the end of the day, the nurses and doctors have all the leverage.

The provinces need them more than they need the provinces.

Doctors and nurses are extremely mobile in their ability to work in other jurisdictions and other countries.


----------



## OceanBonfire

While the CAF is about 90% fully vaccinated, this is the state South of the border:

As of publication, nearly 97% of Airmen and Guardians on active duty have received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine:









						Department of the Air Force nears 97% AD vaccination rate
					

Nearly 97% of Airmen and Guardians on active duty have received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine.



					www.af.mil
				




As of Nov. 3, 2021, 95% of active-duty Sailors are fully immunized, and 99.3% received at least one dose of the vaccine. 81% of reserve Sailors are fully immunized and 86% of reserve Sailors have received at least one dose of the vaccine. 92% of the total force is fully immunized and 96.1% have received at least one dose of the vaccine:



			United States Navy > U.S. Navy COVID-19 Updates


----------



## HiTechComms

Altair said:


> At the end of the day, the nurses and doctors have all the leverage.
> 
> The provinces need them more than they need the provinces.
> 
> Doctors and nurses are extremely mobile in their ability to work in other jurisdictions and other countries.


Yep. They were told they can just get a different job so they did. Got to admire their stance and principals. Health Care is not a right. No one is entitled to some one else's labour.

These people were working all this time and they are still alive so if that is the case I don't see how the vaccine in their position would improve their quality of life when it comes to work. I understand where they are coming from I don't have to agree with them.  Trust the medical professionals.


----------



## daftandbarmy

streuth....

Personal freedom, health concerns top reasons for remaining unvaccinated: survey​
Unvaccinated Canadians aren’t getting the COVID-19 vaccine due to health concerns and perceived personal freedom, a new survey suggests.

Of the roughly 8 per cent of unvaccinated adults remaining in Canada, a new Angus Reid survey found most are refusing because of personal freedom and health concerns, while about a third say it’s because they don’t believe COVID-19 is a serious health threat.

Nearly all (90 per cent) of the unvaccinated individuals believe the health risks of COVID-19 are overstated while 84 per cent believe their immune system alone is good enough to fight the infection.

The survey also found that of those unvaccinated, 95 per cent believe vaccine passports are a government overreach, 76 per cent believe the side effects from the vaccine are worse than the virus, and 55 per cent believe it’s a conspiracy for government control.











						Personal freedom, health concerns top reasons for remaining unvaccinated: survey
					

A new Angus Reid survey provides insight as to why some of the remaining 8 per cent of unvaccinated Canadians are saying no to the jab.




					www.cheknews.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Ontario and Quebec backdown on mandatory vaccines for healthcare workers.



So it begins.  Who will be next, asking - reasonably - "why them and not me also"?


----------



## CBH99

COVID-19 ‘most disruptive event’ since 9/11 for Canadian intelligence: CSIS deputy director - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Extremist groups and state actors have taken advantage of the COVID crisis while the job of Canada’s intelligence agencies has become more complicated: top intelligence official




					globalnews.ca
				





Found the article more interesting than I anticipated.  Thoughts?


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> At this point it’s not like many of us are surprised the Ford government would shirk its reaponsibilities in this public health emergency…



Had his mayoral campaign not been a failure, one can only guess if there would be a city mandate...
​WARMINGTON: Unvaccinated hero paramedic faces uncertain future​
“I have been told my next time in I will be given my suspension letter for not meeting the vaccine mandates, and six weeks later, will be terminated should I not comply.” - Toronto paramedic Scarlett Martyn









						WARMINGTON: Unvaccinated hero paramedic faces uncertain future
					

Scarlett Martyn has been saving lives for 23 years.




					torontosun.com


----------



## HiTechComms

Why the back down against mandates.



			Americans with PhDs are most reluctant to get vaccinated against COVID
		


This might explain the reason.

I think there are too many people assuming that the anti covid vaxx health workers are an average worker. I think the reason why such a small percentage made them back down was due to too many highly educated and highly specialized individuals said no. 

If there is a disproportionate amount of surgeons, specialists, (certain) nurses, key position holders that say no, their exit from the health care would not be just a 3-6% impact but more likely 20-40% impact. IE There are 10 cardio specialist and 2 of them say no that is a 20% impact to operational capacity.  Lets not forget specialized and skilled people usually make a huge amounts of money and they can afford to tell you to fuck off and go and take a year sabbatical or work in another country like USA.

Our health care has been in shambles for a long time this pressure would simply lead to systemic service collapse.


----------



## brihard

HiTechComms said:


> Why the back down against mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> Americans with PhDs are most reluctant to get vaccinated against COVID
> 
> 
> 
> This might explain the reason.
> 
> I think there are too many people assuming that the anti covid vaxx health workers are an average worker. I think the reason why such a small percentage made them back down was due to too many highly educated and highly specialized individuals said no.
> 
> If there is a disproportionate amount of surgeons, specialists, (certain) nurses, key position holders that say no, their exit from the health care would not be just a 3-6% impact but more likely 20-40% impact. IE There are 10 cardio specialist and 2 of them say no that is a 20% impact to operational capacity.  Lets not forget specialized and skilled people usually make a huge amounts of money and they can afford to tell you to fuck off and go and take a year sabbatical or work in another country like USA.
> 
> Our health care has been in shambles for a long time this pressure would simply lead to systemic service collapse.


Exceptionally few PhDs are in fields that are in any way relevant to being qualified to gauge the efficacy or safety of vaccines. I’m doubtful that that higher education means anything about the ability of the individual to make better informed decisions in most cases. More granular data that differentiates those in medical/biological/public health fields from others would be interesting.

Having a PhD indicates the likelihood that someone is pretty smart in one field that narrowed increasingly as they progressed in their education. It doesn’t denote generalized brilliance.


----------



## Booter

Are you mixing up PhD’s and MD’s?

I don’t care what someone who has a doctorate in pastoral counselling (online) thinks of medical interventions.


----------



## PMedMoe

Don't confuse education with intelligence.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> gauge the efficacy or safety of vaccines



Efficacy and safety numbers have been available since vaccines were nearing ends of trials.  We had a pretty good idea after Phase II trials.  Anyone who can do arithmetic can "gauge" the values.  If a person looks at a COVID risk-by-age matrix and decides a vaccine isn't that much of an improvement, a decision to not take a vaccine can be rational.  People who criticize that are, charitably, off-target, and uncharitably, assholes.  The valid criticism is, obviously, that there is a risk beyond personal infection.  But, a person can look at the overall CFRs and decide COVID "is not much worse than flu", versus looking at the ratio of CFRs and concluding "it's much worse than flu", and end up refusing to accept any personal risk in order to mitigate collective risk.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Efficacy and safety numbers have been available since vaccines were nearing ends of trials.  We had a pretty good idea after Phase II trials.  Anyone who can do arithmetic can "gauge" the values.  If a person looks at a COVID risk-by-age matrix and decides a vaccine isn't that much of an improvement, a decision to not take a vaccine can be rational.  People who criticize that are, charitably, off-target, and uncharitably, assholes.  The valid criticism is, obviously, that there is a risk beyond personal infection.  But, a person can look at the overall CFRs and decide COVID "is not much worse than flu", versus looking at the ratio of CFRs and concluding "it's much worse than flu", and end up refusing to accept any personal risk in order to mitigate collective risk.


Yes they can. People are still free to make choices out of pure self-interest if they wish. Those who are unwilling to participate in the mitigation of collective risk will simply face significant constraints in participating in collective other stuff. Nobody here is saying to hold anyone down and stick a needle in them.

That segue aside, attainment of a PhD, independent of other variables, doesn’t appear to be relevant to the merit of that particular decision. The most and least educated seem to be the outliers on that decision. Statistically interesting, but not conclusive of anything on its own.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Those who are unwilling to participate in the mitigation of collective risk will simply face significant constraints in participating in collective other stuff.



What a wonderful statement of political philosophy that is.  What admirable people it has produced throughout history.



> That segue aside, attainment of a PhD, independent of other variables, doesn’t appear to be relevant to the merit of that particular decision.



The more you know about something, the more you know that what is known about it is not very much.  (Unless it's something small, well-defined, and not very complex, like plumbing or the collected works of Shakespeare.)  So you begin to suspect, rationally, that a lot of other experts are just floating guesses backed by credentials, maybe inflected inappropriately by over-weighting "safe" compared to "likely".  You begin to suspect that while it's their best-guess-least-likely-to-blowback-if-wrong, it might be something that a Bayesian would tag as a hypothesis with an abysmally low probability.  And there's the politics, which is just experts shooting the entire community of experts in the foot (degrading the credibility of all experts).

The more times advice changes because "what we know has changed", the less credible each new change is (how long till it, too, is set aside)?



> The most and least educated seem to be the outliers on that decision.



Makes perfect sense that the most and least educated should both be the most skeptical, but for different reasons.  It's the sheep in the middle who don't know how many of the people in charge are just barely muddling through.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brad Sallows said:


> People who criticize that are, charitably, off-target, and uncharitably, assholes.


Bingo.


----------



## HiTechComms

brihard said:


> Exceptionally few PhDs are in fields that are in any way relevant to being qualified to gauge the efficacy or safety of vaccines. I’m doubtful that that higher education means anything about the ability of the individual to make better informed decisions in most cases. More granular data that differentiates those in medical/biological/public health fields from others would be interesting.
> 
> Having a PhD indicates the likelihood that someone is pretty smart in one field that narrowed increasingly as they progressed in their education. It doesn’t denote generalized brilliance.


Except that is not the argument I was making.

Its quite apparent from posts here that most if not all posters here never worked with Surgeons and Specialized doctors. A lot of them hold PHds and this goes double for specialized individuals in the medical field.  Do you think a Surgeon that took 15 years to become fully licensed will take any risk lightly?

My argument was: The provinces backed off on the mandates because its highly likely these medical professionals can have greater impact on the medical system then just some nurses (there are nurses like in the mental health field are extremely valuable and highly paid). This is why such a low percentage of the total health workers caused the government to blink.

The more specialized medical field, the less people in that field.

This is just a theory.. Governments don't blink that easily and usually double down.

Again health care is not a right. No one is entitled to anyone's labour.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> Except that is not the argument I was making.
> 
> Its quite apparent from posts here that most if not all posters here never worked with Surgeons and Specialized doctors. A lot of them hold PHds and this goes double for specialized individuals in the medical field.  Do you think a Surgeon that took 15 years to become fully licensed will take any risk lightly?
> 
> My argument was: The provinces backed off on the mandates because its highly likely these medical professionals can have greater impact on the medical system then just some nurses (there are nurses like in the mental health field are extremely valuable and highly paid). This is why such a low percentage of the total health workers caused the government to blink.
> 
> The more specialized medical field, the less people in that field.
> 
> This is just a theory.. Governments don't blink that easily and usually double down.
> 
> Again health care is not a right. No one is entitled to anyone's labour.


Ford has blinked on a lot of stuff.  Just saying.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Just because the Ontario Govt won't mandate it doesn't mean any hospital will follow suit.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> The more times advice changes because "what we know has changed", the less credible each new change is (how long till it, too, is set aside)?



Is advice that remains unchanged for the sake of maintaining an _appearance _of credibility preferable to advice that is updated as new information is gained?



Brad Sallows said:


> Makes perfect sense that the most and least educated should both be the most skeptical, but for different reasons.  It's the sheep in the middle who don't know how many of the people in charge are just barely muddling through.



Perhaps the "sheep" are simply aware of the competing pressures influencing decision-makers, and have opted to follow the medical advice of experts in the applicable fields.  

By the way, does dehumanizing a vast majority of the population by calling them "sheep" fall into the "off-target" category, or the "asshole" category?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Just because the Ontario Govt won't mandate it doesn't mean any hospital will follow suit.


As here, where the LHINs have decided to ignore the government.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Mick said:


> Is advice that remains unchanged for the sake of maintaining an _appearance _of credibility preferable to advice that is updated as new information is gained?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the "sheep" are simply aware of the competing pressures influencing decision-makers, and have opted to follow the medical advice of experts in the applicable fields.
> 
> By the way, does dehumanizing a vast majority of the population by calling them "sheep" fall into the "off-target" category, or the "asshole" category?


Sheep are assholes. Just ask a shepherd.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Is advice that remains unchanged for the sake of maintaining an _appearance _of credibility preferable to advice that is updated as new information is gained?



I sympathize, but public perception can not be ignored when the aim is to convince the public.  A target can't be hit if it isn't aimed at.



> By the way, does dehumanizing a vast majority of the population by calling them "sheep" fall into the "off-target" category, or the "asshole" category?



Asshole.  But it expresses the point succinctly.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> I sympathize, but public perception can not be ignored when the aim is to convince the public.  A target can't be hit if it isn't aimed at.



Unfortunately, public perception cannot be the driving force behind public health policy, although I agree that it must be considered.  To continue your analogy: take your best shot and adjust aim as required.



Brad Sallows said:


> Asshole.  But it expresses the point succinctly.



Agree.


----------



## HiTechComms

Oops.. Looks like the science might be not so scientific.









						Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial
					

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports  In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> Oops.. Looks like the science might be not so scientific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial
> 
> 
> Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports  In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com


One company sub contracted to do some work.  Not terribly surprising but I can see the concern it can raise.  Would need more investigating to see if it affected overall data integrity.  

Also, in case it comes up, the journalist in question is also the same guy who discovered that the Bush Government was muzzling government scientists, and suppressing climate science linking global warming to hurricanes.  So if you are a fan of his work then his reporting would seem to be accurate.  

 From all accounts he is a bona fide journalist.  You know the type.   MSM.   Anyone who hates the MSM should by their own admission ignore the guy but their hypocrisy will likely have them embrace him because this story supports their larger narrative.  Lol.  It’s funny to see that sort of thing in action.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/health-care-workers-manitoba-unpaid-leave-1.6237513
		


Really hadn't thought of looking at the unvaccinated numbers for health care workers  by regions and comparing to the general unvaccinated public in those same regions.    Didn't Forest Gump have a phrase for this??


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> People are still free to make choices out of pure self-interest if they wish.


Well said.

Their employer also makes a choice.

People I know who excercised their freedom of choice have been on suspension without pay since last Monday.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> One company sub contracted to do some work.  Not terribly surprising but I can see the concern it can raise.  Would need more investigating to see if it affected overall data integrity.
> 
> Also, in case it comes up, the journalist in question is also the same guy who discovered that the Bush Government was muzzling government scientists, and suppressing climate science linking global warming to hurricanes.  So if you are a fan of his work then his reporting would seem to be accurate.
> 
> From all accounts he is a bona fide journalist.  You know the type.   MSM.   Anyone who hates the MSM should by their own admission ignore the guy but their hypocrisy will likely have them embrace him because this story supports their larger narrative.  Lol.  It’s funny to see that sort of thing in action.



BMJ is pretty legit.

There always have been question about the Pfizer research right from the get go.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> One company sub contracted to do some work.  Not terribly surprising but I can see the concern it can raise.  Would need more investigating to see if it affected overall data integrity.
> 
> Also, in case it comes up, the journalist in question is also the same guy who discovered that the Bush Government was muzzling government scientists, and suppressing climate science linking global warming to hurricanes.  So if you are a fan of his work then his reporting would seem to be accurate.
> 
> From all accounts he is a bona fide journalist.  You know the type.   MSM.   Anyone who hates the MSM should by their own admission ignore the guy but their hypocrisy will likely have them embrace him because this story supports their larger narrative.  Lol.  It’s funny to see that sort of thing in action.



This is Remius' attempt to discredit the author after trying and failing to find anything to discredit the author.


----------



## Navy_Pete

So some procedural issues at one of the 153 labs involved in the study, and you suddenly think the entire study is invalid? Some items have no actual implication for the vaccine efficacy (ie really doesn't matter how the needles are disposed of for the people that got the needles) and with that many labs involved,  this would just go into the general pool and form part of the overall analysis.

Sure, all these things are a concern, but doesn't mean the vaccines don't work, or there was some kind of major safety issue that was missed. Not really sure what your point is here.


----------



## Altair

Navy_Pete said:


> So some procedural issues at one of the 153 labs involved in the study, and you suddenly think the entire study is invalid? Some items have no actual implication for the vaccine efficacy (ie really doesn't matter how the needles are disposed of for the people that got the needles) and with that many labs involved,  this would just go into the general pool and form part of the overall analysis.
> 
> Sure, all these things are a concern, but doesn't mean the vaccines don't work, or there was some kind of major safety issue that was missed. Not really sure what your point is here.


The point is to take horse paste I think.


----------



## PMedMoe

Navy_Pete said:


> So some procedural issues at one of the 153 labs involved in the study, and you suddenly think the entire study is invalid? Some items have no actual implication for the vaccine efficacy (ie really doesn't matter how the needles are disposed of for the people that got the needles) and with that many labs involved,  this would just go into the general pool and form part of the overall analysis.
> 
> Sure, all these things are a concern, but doesn't mean the vaccines don't work, or there was some kind of major safety issue that was missed. Not really sure what your point is here.


And the author himself is double vaxxed with Pfizer.


----------



## HiTechComms

Dr Peter Doshi the associated editor of BMJ had some interesting words. I think the science is not even close to being done.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> This is Remius' attempt to discredit the author after trying and failing to find anything to discredit the author.


How did I discredit him.  He’s very credible.   Read better.

My point is that people like you hate the MSM, unless it fits their narrative, then they are ok.


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> And the author himself is double vaxxed with Pfizer.



Unlike this guy:

Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating​
Mak Parhar, the New Westminster man who gained online notoriety for his belief the earth is flat and outspoken denial that COVID-19 exists, has died.






New Westminster police confirmed they were called to help paramedics at a home in the Sapperton neighbourhood Thursday morning, but arrived to find Parkhar deceased.

The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.

In a recent livestreamed video, Parhar reported feeling ill with a variety of symptoms, including fatigue, chills and a cough, which he said was “not CONVID (sic) because CONVID (sic) doesn’t exist.”

In a video posted Wednesday, Parhar said he was feeling somewhat better and had recently taken Ivermectin, an anti-parasite drug widely touted in the anti-vaccine community, but which Canadian and U.S. health officials have warned against using.









						Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating  | Globalnews.ca
					

The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> BMJ is pretty legit.
> 
> There always have been question about the Pfizer research right from the get





daftandbarmy said:


> Unlike this guy:
> 
> Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating​
> Mak Parhar, the New Westminster man who gained online notoriety for his belief the earth is flat and outspoken denial that COVID-19 exists, has died.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Westminster police confirmed they were called to help paramedics at a home in the Sapperton neighbourhood Thursday morning, but arrived to find Parkhar deceased.
> 
> The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.
> 
> In a recent livestreamed video, Parhar reported feeling ill with a variety of symptoms, including fatigue, chills and a cough, which he said was “not CONVID (sic) because CONVID (sic) doesn’t exist.”
> 
> In a video posted Wednesday, Parhar said he was feeling somewhat better and had recently taken Ivermectin, an anti-parasite drug widely touted in the anti-vaccine community, but which Canadian and U.S. health officials have warned against using.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


So not COVID, but took the Horse Paste anyways…


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> So not COVID, but took the Horse Paste anyways…



The cororner is still checking under the 'hood'....


----------



## MilEME09

daftandbarmy said:


> The cororner is still checking under the 'hood'....


Who's willing to bet it was the veterinary grade stuff and he OD on it


----------



## PMedMoe

MilEME09 said:


> Who's willing to bet it was the veterinary grade stuff and he OD on it


That would be ironic.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> So not COVID, but took the Horse Paste anyways…


Wot?

That's not my claim. I am all for science and looking at all angles. 

It takes 4 years to develop a vaccine, now it has been done in 1 year.  I want to see the vaccine data that is now coming in. My OCD need to know I guess.


----------



## MilEME09

HiTechComms said:


> Wot?
> 
> That's not my claim. I am all for science and looking at all angles.
> 
> It takes 4 years to develop a vaccine, now it has been done in 1 year.  I want to see the vaccine data that is now coming in. My OCD need to know I guess.


Covid vaccine has the largest data set of any vaccine in history. As for the time line, you'd be surprised how fast medical science can move when Suddenly the budget is unlimited and everyone is working on the same goal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

MilEME09 said:


> Covid vaccine has the largest data set of any vaccine in history. As for the time line, you'd be surprised how fast medical science can move when Suddenly the budget is unlimited and everyone is working on the same goal.



And there is much glory to be had 

Dr. Bonnie Henry among 16 Order of B.C. recipients for 2021​








						Dr. Bonnie Henry among 16 Order of B.C. recipients for 2021
					

An artist, three doctors and a First Nation chief are among the 16 people appointed to the Order of British Columbia this year.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## ModlrMike

Moore's law doesn't just apply to computers.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> Wot?
> 
> That's not my claim. I am all for science and looking at all angles.
> 
> It takes 4 years to develop a vaccine, now it has been done in 1 year.  I want to see the vaccine data that is now coming in. My OCD need to know I guess.


I wasn’t responding to what you posted. I think my quoting got messed up.  Sorry about that.


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> Unlike this guy:
> 
> Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating​
> Mak Parhar, the New Westminster man who gained online notoriety for his belief the earth is flat and outspoken denial that COVID-19 exists, has died.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Westminster police confirmed they were called to help paramedics at a home in the Sapperton neighbourhood Thursday morning, but arrived to find Parkhar deceased.
> 
> The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.
> 
> In a recent livestreamed video, Parhar reported feeling ill with a variety of symptoms, including fatigue, chills and a cough, which he said was “not CONVID (sic) because CONVID (sic) doesn’t exist.”
> 
> In a video posted Wednesday, Parhar said he was feeling somewhat better and had recently taken Ivermectin, an anti-parasite drug widely touted in the anti-vaccine community, but which Canadian and U.S. health officials have warned against using.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Outspoken B.C. COVID-denier Mak Parhar dies, coroner investigating  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The cause of death has not been determined and will be investigated by the BC Coroners Service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


In darwin we trust.


----------



## mariomike

WARMINGTON: Firefighter feels 'shunned' as dream job becomes nightmare
					

Andrew Mason is living the Canadian dream -- or, at least, he was.




					torontosun.com
				




I appreciate our city firefighters and paramedics who complied with the vaccine mandate.


----------



## PuckChaser

I appreciate any firefighter or paramedic that comes to save my ass or any family member, and I could care less what vaccines they've had before showing up.


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:


> I appreciate any firefighter or paramedic that comes to save my ass or any family member, and I could care less what vaccines they've had before showing up.


Since the end of last month, unless they provided documented proof of double-vaccination, Toronto firefighters and paramedics have been banned from their stations.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> WARMINGTON: Firefighter feels 'shunned' as dream job becomes nightmare
> 
> 
> Andrew Mason is living the Canadian dream -- or, at least, he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate our city firefighters and paramedics who complied with the vaccine mandate.


So he gets infected - from whatever source - and takes his whole crew out of service.  How is that public safety?  Perhaps a relatively healthy person could survive being medically treated by an infected firefighter or paramedic, but could a medically compromised one?  The employer (city) owns the liability.

I wonder if Toronto Fire personnel have to pass a medical every year or so.

Every vaccine or medication didn't exist, until it did.

Principles won't feed the kids.

I would really like for a workplace challenge to make its way to top of the system; then at least we know one way or the other.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> I wonder if Toronto Fire personnel have to pass a medical every year or so.


Toronto firefighters and paramedics have to pass the medical every 5 years.  After age 45 every 3 years.

After age 65, every year. But, I'm not aware of anyone lasting that long. I would congratulate anyone who did.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, at Spook HQ:

Thousands of American intel officers refusing vaccine risk dismissal​
Thousands of intelligence officers could soon face dismissal for failing to comply with the U.S. government's vaccine mandate, leading some Republican lawmakers to raise concerns about removing employees from agencies critical to national security.

Several intelligence agencies had at least 20% of their workforce unvaccinated as of late October, said U.S. Rep. Chris Stewart, a Utah Republican who is a member of the House Intelligence Committee. Some agencies in the 18-member intelligence community had as much as 40% of their workforce unvaccinated, Stewart said, citing information the administration has provided to the committee but not released publicly. He declined to identify the agencies because full information on vaccination rates was classified.

While many people will likely still get vaccinated before the administration's Nov. 22 deadline for civilian workers, resistance to the mandate could leave major agencies responsible for national security without some personnel. Intelligence officers are particularly hard to replace due to the highly specialized work they do and the difficulties of completing security clearance checks.









						Thousands of American intel officers refusing vaccine risk dismissal
					

Thousands of intelligence officers could soon face dismissal for failing to comply with the U.S. government's vaccine mandate, leading some Republican lawmakers to raise concerns about removing employees from agencies critical to national security.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

Apparently one of the side effects of not being vaccinated is not being able to shut up about not being vaccinated when in public.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> Apparently one of the side effects of not being vaccinated is not being able to shut up about not being vaccinated when in public.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> I would really like for a workplace challenge to make its way to top of the system; then at least we know one way or the other.



The London Police Association told its members,









						London police COVID-19 vaccination policy backed by law: Union
					

London police have the legal right to require employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19 and disclose their vaccination status, says the head of the city's…




					lfpress.com
				






> London police have the legal right to require employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19 and disclose their vaccination status, says the head of the city's police union.


----------



## Remius

The Ottawa Board of education just put a bunch of people on leave without pay. 









						53 unvaccinated employees placed on unpaid leave by Ottawa's public school board
					

The Ottawa Carleton District School Board says 23 of the 53 employees suspended for not being vaccinated are teachers in elementary and secondary schools.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in Election 44,



Colin Parkinson said:


> Consider this though, if people resist getting the vaccine, just where will you draw the line on the amount and type of force being used?



Public Service Alliance of Canada ( PSAC )



> No one can be physically forced to get a vaccine against their will.





> Public service workers who are unable to provide proof of vaccination will be placed on unpaid leave by November 15, 2021.








						Log in | Public Service Alliance of Canada
					






					psacunion.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Will it end there? I don't doubt the control freaks in some parties and government won't keep pushing the envelope. Historical if governments succeed by using some form of force to get compliance, they generally become more authoritarian as they become used to having that power. While there are checks and balances, the majority of average people do not have the resources to make effective use of the courts.


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> Will it end there? I don't doubt the control freaks in some parties and government won't keep pushing the envelope. Historical if governments succeed by using some form of force to get compliance, they generally become more authoritarian as they become used to having that power. While there are checks and balances, the majority of average people do not have the resources to make effective use of the courts.


What power are they gaining exactly?


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> What power are they gaining exactly?


To compel activity into something or suffer the withholding of employment, travel, society etc.  Just a few things that were incomprehensible 1.5 years ago.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> What power are they gaining exactly?


Those same healthcare workers that were lauded and held up as hero's, are now being forced out of work and being demonized (aka de-humanizing). At what point is your right to decide what goes into your body and your right to work/travel gets taken away?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> To compel activity into something or suffer the withholding of employment, travel, society etc.  Just a few things that were incomprehensible 1.5 years ago.


So was a pandemic of this scale.   So to what end then?


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> Those same healthcare workers that were lauded and held up as hero's, are now being forced out of work and being demonized (aka de-humanizing).


Lenaitch explained it. 



> So he gets infected - from whatever source - and takes his whole crew out of service. How is that public safety? Perhaps a relatively healthy person could survive being medically treated by an infected firefighter or paramedic, but could a medically compromised one? The employer (city) owns the liability.


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> Those same healthcare workers that were lauded and held up as hero's, are now being forced out of work and being demonized (aka de-humanizing). At what point is your right to decide what goes into your body and your right to work/travel gets taken away?


At the point when said health care workers become a threat to a return to normality,  health and society.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> So was a pandemic of this scale.   So to what end then?


Let's watch and shoot. 

I, for one, have the utmost trust in Justin Trudeau and the people he surrounds himself with to do only the right thing.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> At the point when said health care workers become a threat to a return to normality,  health and society.


This government and others are quite quick to determining people are a threat, not only to the un-vaccinated, but also to gun owners. It may be academic to you for now, but eventually you might be determined a threat to society as well. Liberties lost are rarely won back easily if at all. The worrying trends on the curtailment of free speech by both corporations and government are another major concern. It's all for the public good of course....


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Let's watch and shoot.
> 
> I, for one, have the utmost trust in Justin Trudeau and the people he surrounds himself with to do only the right thing.


And many of these aren’t coming from him specifically.  I doubt he directed the Ottawa Board of Education to place 53 people on leave without pay.   Nor did Doug Ford for that matter. 

Again, I don’t see what power grab they are reaching for.   That side of the argument has yet to make that clear.


----------



## QV

Colin Parkinson said:


> This government and others are quite quick to determining people are a threat, not only to the un-vaccinated, but also to gun owners. It may be academic to you for now, but eventually you might be determined a threat to society as well. Liberties lost are rarely won back easily if at all. The worrying trends on the curtailment of free speech by both corporations and government are another major concern. It's all for the public good of course....


"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."  <--- this kind of sentiment is dying fast.


----------



## Remius

Colin Parkinson said:


> This government and others are quite quick to determining people are a threat, not only to the un-vaccinated, but also to gun owners. It may be academic to you for now, but eventually you might be determined a threat to society as well. Liberties lost are rarely won back easily if at all. The worrying trends on the curtailment of free speech by both corporations and government are another major concern. It's all for the public good of course....


Ah, “this” government.  So no one else is doing this?  Not really.  It seems like quite a consensus at various levels. Some stricter others looser.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."  <--- this kind of sentiment is dying fast.


Freedom of Speech or as we call it here “freedom of expression” does not necessarily translate to freedoms from consequences.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> And many of these aren’t coming from him specifically.  I doubt he directed the Ottawa Board of Education to place 53 people on leave without pay.   Nor did Doug Ford for that matter.
> 
> Again, I don’t see what power grab they are reaching for.   That side of the argument has yet to make that clear.


The federal government has set the condition for the situation and enabled every thing that has occurred.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin Parkinson said:


> It's all for the public good of course....




Any bets an investigation into the LPC and covid will produce some of these transparent documents?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> The federal government has set the condition for the situation and enabled every thing that has occurred.


No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.



Lots of blame to go around.  The people whose politics caused them to undershoot caution in the very early stages bear the overwhelming share of the responsibility.  (Exponential phenomena drastically favour early intervention.)  Their late-found authoritarianism does them no further credit.


----------



## QV

Yesterday it was the "racists"
Today it's the "anti-vaxxers"
Tomorrow it will be the "climate change deniers"

The Trudeau LPC definitions:
Racist: are those who believe in controlled and vetted immigration
Ant-vaxxer: are normally vaccinated citizens not comfortable with the new C19 vaccines or authoritarian measures to implement
Climate change denier: are those who believe there are better ways to be good environmental stewards than the economic destruction of the LPC agenda


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.


More like the CCP who likely either kept it under wraps or just utterly failed to identify it for likely 6 months before the world became aware of it and the politicans who did not immediately shut down air travel. Because airliners are gods gift to viruses.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Remius said:


> No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.



Where this thought goes off the road into the weeds is the "vaccinated can still transmit the virus" piece...what if I suggest it was the fed govt who didn't shut down air travel and boarder crossing who 'set the conditions' in our country, back as far as winter 2020 before "it happened" (mid March)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.


Seriously, you're  blaming those that don't  trust the vaccine as the reason this virus keeps mutating and hanging around? That if every single person took the jab, the virus would just disappear? Is that the ignorant and bigoted stance you're taking. Even after our political masters and their witch doctors have said that even with their best guessing that social distancing, masks and vaccines haven't worked the way they promised. Or their "Just give us three weeks to flatten the curve." Actually, if we look back, the whole medical and political reaction to this thing has been nothing but a series of best/ bad guesses. Given these 'experts' don't know what they are doing, I doubt whether a simple layman, like yourself, is in a position to be assigning blame.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Remius said:


> Ah, “this” government.  So no one else is doing this?  Not really.  It seems like quite a consensus at various levels. Some stricter others looser.


Take a close look at what I said, the Federal and the various Provincial governments are included. However this PM and his PMO have a very  tenuous grasp on ethics or proper ways to handle dissent.


----------



## Weinie

Fishbone Jones said:


> Seriously, you're  blaming those that don't  trust the vaccine as the reason this virus keeps mutating and hanging around? That if every single person took the jab, the virus would just disappear? Is that the ignorant and bigoted stance you're taking. Even after our political masters and their witch doctors have said that even with their best guessing that social distancing, masks and vaccines haven't worked the way they promised. Or their "Just give us three weeks to flatten the curve." *Actually, if we look back, the whole medical and political reaction to this thing has been nothing but a series of best/ bad guesses.* Given these 'experts' don't know what they are doing, I doubt whether a simple layman, like yourself, is in a position to be assigning blame.


This.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> Seriously, you're  blaming those that don't  trust the vaccine as the reason this virus keeps mutating and hanging around? That if every single person took the jab, the virus would just disappear? Is that the ignorant and bigoted stance you're taking. Even after our political masters and their witch doctors have said that even with their best guessing that social distancing, masks and vaccines haven't worked the way they promised. Or their "Just give us three weeks to flatten the curve." Actually, if we look back, the whole medical and political reaction to this thing has been nothing but a series of best/ bad guesses. Given these 'experts' don't know what they are doing, I doubt whether a simple layman, like yourself, is in a position to be assigning blame.


Yes I am.  It’s actually a proven factor among others as to why we can’t get past this.  I never said it would disappear.  But we’d be far closer to getting out of this if they got off the consparcy crazy train.  At this point I could care less about their jobs or freedoms or whatever invented slight they’ve created in their self centred world.    The only ignorance is coming coming from the anti science and anti vax side.  bigoted?  Lol, that’s rich coming from you.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> No, the unvaccinated who have allowed this virus to keep spreading have set the conditions.


Your so far out to lunch. 

There is a slightly less chance of spreading the virus when jabbed. The "SCIENCE" has stated clearly if your Jabbed you can still get sick and spread it. The vaccine doesn't immunize you, simply provides protection to serious symptoms. Stop spreading fake news.

Heck I had a VIHA nurse on the phone when I reported my exposure, state to me that the vaccine doesn't prevent the spread. Verbatim "we have enough of those cases" breakthrough cases are real and you cannot deny them. Heck since I have the recording I could even post it.

You don't care about science that is quite clear. Heck you didn't even read the manufacturers literature.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> Your so far out to lunch.
> 
> There is a slightly less chance of spreading the virus when jabbed. The "SCIENCE" has stated clearly if your Jabbed you can still get sick and spread it. The vaccine doesn't immunize you, simply provides protection to serious symptoms. Stop spreading fake news.
> 
> Heck I had a VIHA nurse on the phone when I reported my exposure, state to me that the vaccine doesn't prevent the spread. Verbatim "we have enough of those cases" breakthrough cases are real and you cannot deny them. Heck since I have the recording I could even post it.
> 
> You don't care about science that is quite clear. Heck you didn't even read the manufacturers literature.


Nice try.  The unvaccinated are spreading it far more than the unvaccinated.  So the vaccine isn’t an immunization?  The vaccine doesn’t slow the spread?  What nurse told you that?  Your lunch is at location much further than mine lol.  

Right.  You are hearing what you want to to fill your narrative.  You are a menace.


----------



## lenaitch

There have been innumerable medications and vaccines rolled out in recent memory, not including the ones for Covid.  Shingles, Pneumonia, Cancer meds; and further back, Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, Antibiotics.  I would imagine many of us have availed ourselves of at least one over the years.  Not every one is 100% effective 100% of the time for 100% of the population.  Hands up for those who ever took one, but only after researching the approval process by the FDA/HC, read the clinical trials just to be sure, read the peer reviews, studied the data. 

I thought so.

Did the politicians stumble and confuse?  Absolutely.  Were the medical experts in total agreement from the get-go and get everything right?  Nope.  I suppose encountering a completely new virus, with its unknown pathology, evolution and lethality, and its unknown impact on host organisms (us) posed a bit of a head scratcher in the beginning.  It must be the government screwing with the educational system to produce inadequate experts as part of the great conspiracy to control us.  Heck, I'll bet they've got the cure for rhinovirus (common cold) locked away in a secret cave (next to the missing Avro Arrow) waiting for the right time to force it on us.


----------



## QV

lenaitch said:


> There have been innumerable medications and vaccines rolled out in recent memory, not including the ones for Covid.  Shingles, Pneumonia, Cancer meds; and further back, Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, Antibiotics.  I would imagine many of us have availed ourselves of at least one over the years.  Not every one is 100% effective 100% of the time for 100% of the population.  Hands up for those who ever took one, but only after researching the approval process by the FDA/HC, read the clinical trials just to be sure, read the peer reviews, studied the data.
> 
> I thought so.
> 
> Did the politicians stumble and confuse?  Absolutely.  Were the medical experts in total agreement from the get-go and get everything right?  Nope.  I suppose encountering a completely new virus, with its unknown pathology, evolution and lethality, and its unknown impact on host organisms (us) posed a bit of a head scratcher in the beginning.  It must be the government screwing with the educational system to produce inadequate experts as part of the great conspiracy to control us.  Heck, I'll bet they've got the cure for rhinovirus (common cold) locked away in a secret cave (next to the missing Avro Arrow) waiting for the right time to force it on us.


You’d do a better job convincing me if the vaccine manufacturers weren’t granted immunity from liability to consequences of their product. Odd, isn’t it? 

And I expect a lot more from my elected leaders and subject matter experts, not divisive labelling and dismissal/ cancelation of every expert with a contradictory professional opinion than what the government backs.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> The London Police Association told its members,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> London police COVID-19 vaccination policy backed by law: Union
> 
> 
> London police have the legal right to require employees to be vaccinated against COVID-19 and disclose their vaccination status, says the head of the city's…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lfpress.com



Ya, there are a few out there in the public and private section that seem to have taken a position based on legal advice received.  I was more thinking of those who have taken a contrary view (with or without counsel) and will end up with the court, labour boards or human rights tribunals to establish some manner of precedent.  To be sure, even if a bargaining unit supports the employer's position, they are duty bound to represent the interests of a member who is non-compliant.  They don't have to champion the cause to ensure the process is respected.

Some folks are arguing that the recent employer policies are unfair, in that breaches to codes of conduct or terms of employment typically follow a 'progressive discipline' pattern rather than go directly to unpaid suspension.  No doubt the employers will argue workplace health and safety.  Only time will tell which prevails.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> Nice try.  The unvaccinated are spreading it far more than the unvaccinated.  So the vaccine isn’t an immunization?  The vaccine doesn’t slow the spread?  What nurse told you that?  Your lunch is at location much further than mine lol.
> 
> Right.  You are hearing what you want to to fill your narrative.  You are a menace.


You blamed the unvaccinated for all of the covid issues. The simple fact you conveniently ommited is that the vaccinated are spreading the disease. You are not interested in science you are interested in your little COVID CULT. 

I have the ability to look at things objectively you obviously are not. 

And I received the vaccine but I don't kid myself and I actually read the damn research.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> You blamed the unvaccinated for all of the covid issues. The simple fact you conveniently ommited is that the vaccinated are spreading the disease. You are not interested in science you are interested in your little COVID CULT.
> 
> I have the ability to look at things objectively you obviously are not.
> 
> And I received the vaccine but I don't kid myself and I actually read the damn research.


No.  But nice try again.  I’m interested in the science just not YOUR science.  I am well aware that the vaccinated  can still transmit and get the virus. Just not at the same rate as the unvaccinated.  

If you had done your research you would not have said that the vaccine doesn’t immunize you it does.  You don’t even know what the word means but here is some easy research:






						Immunization Basics | CDC
					

Immunization: The Basics




					www.cdc.gov
				




So before you want to “school” me get your facts straight and avoid the embarrassment.

As for the recording of that “nurse”, I showed your post to the RN with a PH background that I’m married to and I wanted to record her reaction but it was mostly laughter.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I suppose encountering a completely new virus, with its unknown pathology, evolution and lethality, and its unknown impact on host organisms (us) posed a bit of a head scratcher in the beginning.



The obvious initial position to take is caution.  Did they?  Or did we get "hug a Chinese person", etc?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Just not at the same rate as the unvaccinated.



The obvious question is whether the rate is low enough to matter.  Because if it isn't, then the chief reason to get vaccinated falls back to self-protection.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> No.  But nice try again.  I’m interested in the science just not YOUR science.  I am well aware that the vaccinated  can still transmit and get the virus. Just not at the same rate as the unvaccinated.
> 
> If you had done your research you would not have said that the vaccine doesn’t immunize you it does.  You don’t even know what the word means but here is some easy research:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Immunization Basics | CDC
> 
> 
> Immunization: The Basics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So before you want to “school” me get your facts straight and avoid the embarrassment.
> 
> As for the recording of that “nurse”, I showed your post to the RN with a PH background that I’m married to and I wanted to record her reaction but it was mostly laughter.


Except they changed the definition of Immunization.

Yeah Yeah you can claim all kinds of garbage on the internet. First of all your RN is not a immunologist nor a virologist. So yeah. I don't believe it.
All kinds of people can claim crap on the internet. PROVE IT! Show me the Phd, show me your published studies. Just because you are a soldier in the military it doesn't make you general. Try again with your rebuttal because this one was short of anything worth wile replying to.









						Vaccinated People With Breakthrough Infections Can Spread The Delta Variant, CDC Says
					

In an outbreak in Provincetown, Mass., three-quarters of cases occurred in fully vaccinated people. The study's findings suggest that vaccinated people infected with delta can transmit the virus.




					www.npr.org
				












						New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
					

While new data show that vaccinated people can carry high viral loads of SARS-CoV-2, vaccines still prevent the worst outcomes from COVID-19.




					publichealth.jhu.edu
				




All I ever claimed is that Vaccinated spread the virus as well.

Live in your little COVID death cult.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> Except they changed the definition of Immunization.
> 
> Yeah Yeah you can claim all kinds of garbage on the internet. First of all your RN is not a immunologist nor a virologist. So yeah. I don't believe it.
> All kinds of people can claim crap on the internet. PROVE IT! Show me the Phd, show me your published studies. Just because you are a soldier in the military it doesn't make you general. Try again with your rebuttal because this one was short of anything worth wile replying to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccinated People With Breakthrough Infections Can Spread The Delta Variant, CDC Says
> 
> 
> In an outbreak in Provincetown, Mass., three-quarters of cases occurred in fully vaccinated people. The study's findings suggest that vaccinated people infected with delta can transmit the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Data on COVID-19 Transmission by Vaccinated Individuals | Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
> 
> 
> While new data show that vaccinated people can carry high viral loads of SARS-CoV-2, vaccines still prevent the worst outcomes from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> publichealth.jhu.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I ever claimed is that Vaccinated spread the virus as well.
> 
> Live in your little COVID death cult.


Um, no you claimed far more than that.  “Sure” they changed the definition. Right, conspiracy stuff again. 

Ok, buds.  I’ll let your crazy speak for itself.   Keep embarrassing yourself.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> The only ignorance is coming coming from the anti science and anti vax side.  bigoted?  Lol, that’s rich coming from you.


Your 'excuse' is just simplistic, emotional and wrong. There are thousands of scientists, medical professionals and the like, that don't buy into your hysterical premise. Simply, because you don't agree, doesn't mean they are wrong. Especially when vastly more qualified than you. You have zero reason why anyone should listen to or believe you. Youre just parroting what 'your' experts are saying. As far as you being bigoted, whether coming from me or not, is still a true statement.


----------



## HiTechComms

Remius said:


> Um, no you claimed far more than that.  “Sure” they changed the definition. Right, conspiracy stuff again.
> 
> Ok, buds.  I’ll let your crazy speak for itself.   Keep embarrassing yourself.





			https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html
		


Now how about you refute the point I made earlier. Still haven't refuted my first point of Vaccinated can spread the disease.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> Your 'excuse' is just simplistic, emotional and wrong. There are thousands of scientists, medical professionals and the like, that don't buy into your hysterical premise. Simply, because you don't agree, doesn't mean they are wrong. Especially when vastly more qualified than you. You have zero reason why anyone should listen to or believe you. Youre just parroting what 'your' experts are saying. As far as you being bigoted, whether coming from me or not, is still a true statement.


Right back at you.


----------



## Remius

HiTechComms said:


> https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html
> 
> 
> 
> Now how about you refute the point I made earlier. Still haven't refuted my first point of Vaccinated can spread the disease.


Because I didnt state that it didn’t.  In fact I agreed with it.  

You and I can hurl insults all night.  You think I’m in a COVID Death Cult and I think you are crazy.  Nothing is likely to change that. 

Feel free to get the last word in.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Alright folks.....lets stay on the topic instead of the finger pointing.
Thank you.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> There have been innumerable medications and vaccines rolled out in recent memory, not including the ones for Covid.  Shingles, Pneumonia, Cancer meds; and further back, Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, Antibiotics.  I would imagine many of us have availed ourselves of at least one over the years.  Not every one is 100% effective 100% of the time for 100% of the population.  Hands up for those who ever took one, but only after researching the approval process by the FDA/HC, read the clinical trials just to be sure, read the peer reviews, studied the data.
> 
> I thought so.
> 
> Did the politicians stumble and confuse?  Absolutely.  Were the medical experts in total agreement from the get-go and get everything right?  Nope.  I suppose encountering a completely new virus, with its unknown pathology, evolution and lethality, and its unknown impact on host organisms (us) posed a bit of a head scratcher in the beginning.  It must be the government screwing with the educational system to produce inadequate experts as part of the great conspiracy to control us.  Heck, I'll bet they've got the cure for rhinovirus (common cold) locked away in a secret cave (next to the missing Avro Arrow) waiting for the right time to force it on us.


This.


----------



## QV

FBI Director Chris Wray stating Chinese diplomats had been aggressively urging support for China's handling of the C19 crisis, happening at local, state and federal levels.  A state senator was even asked to introduce a resolution supporting China's response. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1455565642799587329
No big deal...I'm sure it's nothing.


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:


> The obvious initial position to take is caution.  Did they?  Or did we get "hug a Chinese person", etc?


From some politicians - perhaps.  From the public health and broader medical community - not that I am aware of.

Developing an understanding of the source of a virus can no doubt be helpful in the fight against it.  Vilifying a nation or race has no value.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Things like halting international travel and encouraging people to reduce close contact vilify no-one.  Early advice from some "public health and broader medical community" was that they didn't see an immediate need to take such measures.  That was the "science" at the time; turned out to be a bad call, unfortunately.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The takeaway from this Pandemic is that air travel is a fantastic thing for a virus and the first thing that must be done is the suspension of air travel from the region.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Singapore's doing it ....


> Singapore's government has been covering the medical bills of COVID-19 patients throughout the pandemic. But it says unvaccinated people will soon be on their own.
> 
> Those who are "unvaccinated by choice" will have to start paying for their own COVID-19 treatment starting Dec. 8, the Ministry of Health announced on Monday, citing the strain they are putting on the nation's health care system.
> 
> "Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources," it said in a statement.
> 
> Until now, the government has been covering the cost of COVID-19 care for all Singaporeans, permanent residents and long-term pass holders, excluding those who tested positive after returning from overseas travel.
> 
> "This was to avoid financial considerations adding to public uncertainty and concern when COVID-19 was an emergent and unfamiliar disease," it explained, adding that this system will continue to apply to "the majority who are vaccinated ... until the COVID-19 situation is more stable." ...


From Singapore's info-machine ....


> ... COVID-19 Patients who are Unvaccinated by Choice to be Responsible for their Medical Bills
> 
> 15. The Government is currently footing the full COVID-19 medical bills of all Singaporeans, Permanent Residents and Long-Term Pass Holders (SCs/PRs/LTPHs), other than for those who tested positive soon after returning from overseas travel. This was to avoid financial considerations adding to public uncertainty and concern when COVID-19 was an emergent and unfamiliar disease. For the majority who are vaccinated, this special approach for COVID-19 bills will continue until the COVID-19 situation is more stable.
> 
> 16.   Currently, unvaccinated persons make up a sizeable majority of those who require intensive inpatient care, and disproportionately contribute to the strain on our healthcare resources.
> 
> 17.   Hence, from 8 December 2021, we will begin charging COVID-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice.[1] This will apply to all unvaccinated COVID-19 patients admitted on or after 8 December 2021 to hospitals and CTFs. COVID-19 medical bills for those who are ineligible for vaccination will still be fully paid for by the government, i.e. children under 12 years old or medically ineligible persons.
> 
> 18.   COVID-19 patients who are unvaccinated by choice may still tap on regular healthcare financing arrangements to pay for their bills where applicable – SCs and PRs may access regular Government subsidies and MediShield Life/ Integrated Shield Plan (MSHL/ IP) where applicable, while LTPHs may tap on their usual financing arrangements, such as private insurance ...


----------



## PMedMoe

Brad Sallows said:


> Early advice from some "public health and broader medical community" was that they didn't see an immediate need to take such measures.  That was the "science" at the time; turned out to be a bad call, unfortunately.



There's a reason for that: 

"Among the complex reasons for the hesitation was a simple one: distrust of the public. “I worry that if people put on masks, then they’ll think, _OK, I’m protected_, and they won’t wash their hands as vigorously or be careful not to touch their faces,” one expert told Slate’s What Next very early in the pandemic. The White House Coronavirus Task Force, the U.K. scientific council SAGE, and the World Health Organization cited similar concerns at the time, too. Masks would only provide a false sense of reassurance, reversing any public health gains they might offer. Of course, they were wrong—by summer 2020, we were wearing masks and _also_ adhering to other safety measures."

Risk Compensation: The dangerous theory that got everything from bike helmets to vaccines wrong

In Ontario, where many venues have returned to full capacity, this exact thing is happeneing.
Ontario’s COVID winter is looking like a bad James Bond movie


----------



## RangerRay

Yes the federal government bungled everything at the start of the pandemic: denying it would affect Canada while calling anyone who asked about restricting travel from the source as “racist”, trusting the untrustworthy Beijing regime and sending them all our PPE stocks, not replenishing our expired PPE stocks, not restoring our pandemic early warning system that the Tories shut down and setting up “screening “ at airports that consisted of posters, forcing the provinces to deploy their own staff to airports to try to screen international travellers. I probably missed a bunch too. Their advice on masking was confusing to. 

However, to use that as an excuse to disregard the best advice coming from public health officials is asinine.


----------



## CBH99

The Bread Guy said:


> Singapore's doing it ....
> 
> From Singapore's info-machine ....


GOOD.  

I was advocating (okay, I’ll be honest, I was complaining & nagging) - that we should do the exact same thing, or something similar. 

If someone is vaccinated and they end up hospitalized due to COVID-19, or complications related to it, I have no problem with us paying their medical bills.  

_I have a very close friend - who is also currently my boss - who took it seriously and followed all of the suggested protocols, and still somehow caught COVID-19.  She limited her social circle to 2 people, and they did also (our circle of friends mostly took it quite seriously.)  She was down for 5 months, and to this day she has serious health issues that she didn’t have prior to getting COVID.  Blood clots around her lungs, in her leg, serious pains in her chest & back, low oxygen absorption, etc_


If someone chooses to not get vaccinated, that is their choice.  However, there should be some form of financial responsibility to society.  Perhaps asking them to pay for all of their medical bills is a bit much (especially since they won’t be working while in the ICU) - but a token $200 a day or something to reimburse some of the costs may be enough incentive for some people to just go get it done.   

We have a government that pays for healthcare (mostly), affordable insurance plans to cover what the government doesn’t, and free vaccines at almost any pharmacy in the country.  

The government has done it’s job - if an individual doesn’t want to get vaccinated, that is their choice. But choices should have ramifications.  


0.02


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I worry that if people put on masks, then they’ll think, _OK, I’m protected_, and they won’t wash their hands as vigorously or be careful not to touch their faces,



I worry that if people put on seatbelts, then they’ll think, _OK, I’m protected_, and they won’t drive safely or be careful not to exceed their abilities.

That excuse is DRT.


----------



## QV

CBH99 said:


> GOOD.
> 
> I was advocating (okay, I’ll be honest, I was complaining & nagging) - that we should do the exact same thing, or something similar.
> 
> If someone is vaccinated and they end up hospitalized due to COVID-19, or complications related to it, I have no problem with us paying their medical bills.
> 
> _I have a very close friend - who is also currently my boss - who took it seriously and followed all of the suggested protocols, and still somehow caught COVID-19.  She limited her social circle to 2 people, and they did also (our circle of friends mostly took it quite seriously.)  She was down for 5 months, and to this day she has serious health issues that she didn’t have prior to getting COVID.  Blood clots around her lungs, in her leg, serious pains in her chest & back, low oxygen absorption, etc_
> 
> 
> If someone chooses to not get vaccinated, that is their choice.  However, there should be some form of financial responsibility to society.  Perhaps asking them to pay for all of their medical bills is a bit much (especially since they won’t be working while in the ICU) - but a token $200 a day or something to reimburse some of the costs may be enough incentive for some people to just go get it done.
> 
> We have a government that pays for healthcare (mostly), affordable insurance plans to cover what the government doesn’t, and free vaccines at almost any pharmacy in the country.
> 
> The government has done it’s job - if an individual doesn’t want to get vaccinated, that is their choice. But choices should have ramifications.
> 
> 
> 0.02


I'm good with this... but let's not stop with C19.  I want the same to go for all those other unhealthy lifestyle choices too. If you are considered obese due to your BMI, you need to pay out of pocket for any medical treatment that can be linked to your unhealthy state. This is a huge drain on all healthcare resources that could be mitigated with responsible living. Damn that would a lot of people on the hook...


----------



## Quirky

QV said:


> I'm good with this... but let's not stop with C19. I want the same to go for all those other unhealthy lifestyle choices too. If you are considered obese due to your BMI, you need to pay out of pocket for any medical treatment that can be linked to your unhealthy state. This is a huge drain on all healthcare resources that could be mitigated with responsible living. Damn that would a lot of people on the hook...



You can't catch fat from someone nor are fat and drunk overwhelming hospitals and ICU's.

The line is drawn at vaccinations, we need to adopt Singapore's model in a social medicare system. Or go two-tiered.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> If someone chooses to not get vaccinated, that is their choice.  However, there should be some form of financial responsibility to society.


They are no longer on the city payroll where I pay my property taxes.

Health insurance,
One cost of going unvaccinated? Your insurer may ask you to pick up the tab for COVID-19 treatment​








						One cost of going unvaccinated? Your insurer may ask you to pick up the tab for COVID-19 treatment
					

Health insurers — which once waived costs of treating COVID-19 — are increasingly asking patients to chip in.




					www.cbsnews.com
				




Death benefits,

Unvaccinated? Don’t Count on Leaving Your Family Death Benefits​








						Unvaccinated? Don’t Count on Leaving Your Family Death Benefits
					

Some front-line workers who die of covid-19 have been considered eligible for accidental death benefits because it is presumed their infection was contracted on the job. But some employers now sugg…




					khn.org
				






> You can't catch fat from someone nor are fat and drunk overwhelming hospitals and ICU's.


Right.

Their "freedom" to be drunk and / or fat does not infect others.


----------



## QV

Quirky said:


> You can't catch fat from someone nor are fat and drunk overwhelming hospitals and ICU's.
> 
> The line is drawn at vaccinations, we need to adopt Singapore's model in a social medicare system. Or go two-tiered.


You're looking at this very narrowly.

Today there are about 28,000 active C19 cases in Canada, the vast majority of those will be temporary flu like illness with a reasonably short recover time.  A tiny number of that total will require ICU resources.  

Today of 38 million Canadians 62% are considered overweight or obese. That is about 23.5 million people that are negatively affecting health resources today, everyday, and into the future. This is a huge ongoing drain of limited resources. Think of all the ongoing treatment costs for the following conditions associated with being overweight in about 23 million people:

All-causes of death (mortality)
High blood pressure (Hypertension)
High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (Dyslipidemia)
Type 2 diabetes
Coronary heart disease
Stroke
Gallbladder disease
Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint)
Sleep apnea and breathing problems
Many types of cancer
Low quality of life
Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders
Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning
Yes, the preponderance of overweight people requiring much more of all types of medical services affects everyone, services are limited. 

Coincidentally, and not at all surprising, overweight/obese people are far more likely to have a bad outcome from C19, so it's fitting to make sure they pay "for their incorrect personal choices" that have contributed to the rise in costs and drains on the system.

So yes, I'm all for "out of pocket" costs for all those people who "don't make the right personal choice" provided it is equally and appropriately applied.


----------



## CBH99

Brad Sallows said:


> I worry that if people put on seatbelts, then they’ll think, _OK, I’m protected_, and they won’t drive safely or be careful not to exceed their abilities.
> 
> That excuse is DRT.


DRT?


----------



## Brad Sallows

Dead Right There.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> DRT?


DOA left for the coroner or funeral home.

Don't want to say that in front of the family.


----------



## daftandbarmy

QV said:


> You're looking at this very narrowly.
> 
> Today there are about 28,000 active C19 cases in Canada, the vast majority of those will be temporary flu like illness with a reasonably short recover time.  A tiny number of that total will require ICU resources.
> 
> Today of 38 million Canadians 62% are considered overweight or obese. That is about 23.5 million people that are negatively affecting health resources today, everyday, and into the future. This is a huge ongoing drain of limited resources. Think of all the ongoing treatment costs for the following conditions associated with being overweight in about 23 million people:
> 
> All-causes of death (mortality)
> High blood pressure (Hypertension)
> High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (Dyslipidemia)
> Type 2 diabetes
> Coronary heart disease
> Stroke
> Gallbladder disease
> Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint)
> Sleep apnea and breathing problems
> Many types of cancer
> Low quality of life
> Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders
> Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning
> Yes, the preponderance of overweight people requiring much more of all types of medical services affects everyone, services are limited.
> 
> Coincidentally, and not at all surprising, overweight/obese people are far more likely to have a bad outcome from C19, so it's fitting to make sure they pay "for their incorrect personal choices" that have contributed to the rise in costs and drains on the system.
> 
> So yes, I'm all for "out of pocket" costs for all those people who "don't make the right personal choice" provided it is equally and appropriately applied.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You can't catch fat from someone nor are fat and drunk overwhelming hospitals and ICU's.



You can die from COVID because fat, drunk people are occupying hospital beds, or die from being fat and drunk if COVID patients are occupying hospitals beds.  Resources vs requirements doesn't choose favourites.  I have not seen it argued that Canada has a surplus of medical capabilities, so every avoidable condition is a problem.


----------



## QV

I suspect the resources committed to looking after 23 million overweight people could be better allocated if there was less obesity and more personal agency. 

A lot of people making poor lifestyle choices are impacting what my level of care could potentially be. In the spirit of this thread I want that dealt with. 

People of unhealthy weight with no medical exemption should pay a new medical tax and have a low priority for care. I'm sure the pro vax mandate crowd agrees.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> People of unhealthy weight with no medical exemption should pay a new medical tax and have a low priority for care.


I have not read opposition to "fat tax".

I read fat people do not infect non-fat people.


----------



## brihard

Sounds like a great subject for a thread split. This one seems to be getting hijacked.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> I have not read opposition to "fat tax".
> 
> I read fat people do not infect non-fat people.


The discussion is about the strain on the healthcare system from COVID and the associated costs. It's arguable 23,000,000 fat people/day add a significant strain over and above 28,000 temporarily ill people/day.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> It's arguable 23,000,000 fat people/day add a significant strain over and above 28,000 temporarily ill people/day.


I hear you about "significant strain".

I was blessed with a strong back, and fat people broke it.

There's no vaccine protection. Social distancing won't help. Neither will wearing a mask.

All we are saying is that fat people do not infect non-fat people.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Anything transmissible which militates obesity is a culprit, though.  Not everyone obese is obese because of bad life choices or congenital or other non-transmissible problems.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

QV said:


> I'm good with this... but let's not stop with C19.  I want the same to go for all those other unhealthy lifestyle choices too. If you are considered obese due to your BMI, you need to pay out of pocket for any medical treatment that can be linked to your unhealthy state. This is a huge drain on all healthcare resources that could be mitigated with responsible living. Damn that would a lot of people on the hook...


Sure, let's  do it!  Anyone that drinks. No medical. Anyone that smokes. No medical. Anyone that drives a car and gets a ticket. No medical. Go out in the sunlight without long sleeves a hat and sunscreen. No medical. Above 10 feet without fall arrest gear and training. Not medical. I'm sure we can come up with enough reasons to ensure that nobody gets any medical coverage, unless they are puritanical shut ins. I guess socialized medicine isn't very social after all.


----------



## Quirky

QV said:


> Today of 38 million Canadians 62% are considered overweight or obese. So yes, I'm all for "out of pocket" costs for all those people who "don't make the right personal choice" provided it is equally and appropriately applied.



Don’t disagree with that. Like with everything, personal choices have consequences.


----------



## mariomike

Joe Warmington of the Sun feels Metro's mandate "seems too harsh", in comparison to the kinder and gentler approach of neighbouring cities,


> My advice is Toronto should cease and desist suspensions and firings and follow Mississauga and Brampton’s kinder lead.











						WARMINGTON: More vaccine-hesitant Toronto workers get jab as some cops claim injuries
					

With the clock ticking down on City of Toronto employees facing termination, more holdouts have caved to pressure and gotten jabbed.




					torontosun.com
				




As of 10 Nov.,  95% are fully vaccinated, and 3% are partially vaccinated.

The remainder have chosen not to submit proof of vaccination, at this time.


From what I understand, any increase in emergency response time and overtime since suspensions began has been negligible.









						City of Toronto provides update on its COVID-19 Vaccination Policy implementation; 379 additional employees now fully vaccinated
					

News Release November 12, 2021 The number of City of Toronto employees who are providing proof of vaccination and disclosing their status has increased again since last week. Comparing data from end of day November 4 to end of day November 10, an additional 111 employees have submitted their...




					www.toronto.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

Quirky said:


> Don’t disagree with that. Like with everything, personal choices have consequences.



Especially in Austria:

Austria set to place millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown, as chancellor slams 'shameful' shot uptake​Austria is days away from ordering millions of unvaccinated people to stay at home, its chancellor has said, in a rare move that underscores the increasing exasperation of European leaders towards those who have not yet been inoculated against Covid-19.

Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg told reporters on Friday that the government should give the "green light" for the move this weekend.
"The aim is clear: we want on Sunday to give the green light for a nationwide lockdown for the unvaccinated," Schallenberg said at a news conference in Innsbruck.

He had earlier called the country's vaccination rate "shamefully low," and hinted that the measure would be triggered within days. "In other states that rate is a lot higher -- it is shameful as we have enough vaccines available," Schallenberg said at a separate press conference on Thursday.

His warning came as a wave of Covid-19 infections sweeps central Europe. A three-week partial lockdown was announced in the Netherlands on Friday evening, Reuters reported, with health officials recording a rapid rise in cases there.

"Tonight we are bringing a very unpleasant message with very unpleasant and far-reaching measures," Dutch caretaker Prime Minister Mark Rutte said in a televised address, ordering restaurants, supermarkets and non-essential retailers to close early and re-imposing social distancing measures. "The virus is everywhere and needs to be combated everywhere."










						Austria set to place millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown, as chancellor slams 'shameful' shot uptake | CNN
					

Austria is days away from ordering millions of unvaccinated people to stay at home, its chancellor has said, in a rare move that underscores the increasing exasperation of European leaders towards those who have not yet been inoculated against Covid-19.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Quirky

Austria looks like a nice place to live.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Especially in Austria:
> 
> Austria set to place millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown, as chancellor slams 'shameful' shot uptake​Austria is days away from ordering millions of unvaccinated people to stay at home, its chancellor has said, in a rare move that underscores the increasing exasperation of European leaders towards those who have not yet been inoculated against Covid-19.
> 
> Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg told reporters on Friday that the government should give the "green light" for the move this weekend.
> "The aim is clear: we want on Sunday to give the green light for a nationwide lockdown for the unvaccinated," Schallenberg said at a news conference in Innsbruck.
> 
> He had earlier called the country's vaccination rate "shamefully low," and hinted that the measure would be triggered within days. "In other states that rate is a lot higher -- it is shameful as we have enough vaccines available," Schallenberg said at a separate press conference on Thursday.
> 
> His warning came as a wave of Covid-19 infections sweeps central Europe. A three-week partial lockdown was announced in the Netherlands on Friday evening, Reuters reported, with health officials recording a rapid rise in cases there.
> 
> "Tonight we are bringing a very unpleasant message with very unpleasant and far-reaching measures," Dutch caretaker Prime Minister Mark Rutte said in a televised address, ordering restaurants, supermarkets and non-essential retailers to close early and re-imposing social distancing measures. "The virus is everywhere and needs to be combated everywhere."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Austria set to place millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown, as chancellor slams 'shameful' shot uptake | CNN
> 
> 
> Austria is days away from ordering millions of unvaccinated people to stay at home, its chancellor has said, in a rare move that underscores the increasing exasperation of European leaders towards those who have not yet been inoculated against Covid-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


That’s a pretty solid incentive.  

We are a few years into this nonsense now, and enough verifiable information is readily available about what is in the vaccines, should one choose to do some actual research.


Took the whopping 5 minutes to get vaccinated?  Tried to be reasonably responsible, as much as most of us did?  Great!  Continue on, enjoy life 

Still refusing to be vaccinated because some quack on YouTube has convinced you it’s bad?  Some temporary lockdown restrictions to help prevent the numbers from rising may just be required. 


I am the first to admit that I have had some serious questions about this entire thing since day one.  And I think most people have.  And I will also admit that there are some aspects of the vaccination push which I _do_ find suspect.  

But there are plenty of professional doctors and scientists out there who know what to look for when they look at a DNA strand, or molecular bonds, etc - that IF the vaccines weren’t as advertised, someone would have gone public with it by now.  

Just get vaccinated & stop with the nonsense already.  It’s time to move on from this.  


0:02


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:


> Especially in Austria:
> 
> Austria set to place millions of unvaccinated people in lockdown, as chancellor slams 'shameful' shot uptake​


Why not just stop dicking around and have the military go and use force to vaccinate citizens?


----------



## CBH99

Jarnhamar said:


> Why not just stop dicking around and have the military go and use force to vaccinate citizens?


As annoying & frustrating as the situation is, we have to remind ourselves that we can’t throw freedom away when it becomes inconvenient.  

Forcibly vaccinating people, with the threat of force or incarceration, very effectively eliminates their freedom to choose.  And even idiots have that right, as frustrating as it can be for the rest of us.  

Eventually the media will stop hyper focusing on this, and move on to _something_ else.


I’m fully vaccinated.  And almost everybody I know is also.  But I do have a question…

_Why are numbers continuing to go up, if more & more people are getting vaccinated?_

(I’m genuinely curious.  I know the vaccine isn’t magic, but there are a lot of articles talking about numbers going up almost everywhere.  Why is this the case if people have taken the shots?)


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:


> As annoying & frustrating as the situation is, we have to remind ourselves that we can’t throw freedom away when it becomes inconvenient.
> 
> Forcibly vaccinating people, with the threat of force or incarceration, very effectively eliminates their freedom to choose.  And even idiots have that right, as frustrating as it can be for the rest of us.
> 
> Eventually the media will stop hyper focusing on this, and move on to _something_ else.
> 
> 
> I’m fully vaccinated.  And almost everybody I know is also.  But I do have a question…
> 
> _Why are numbers continuing to go up, if more & more people are getting vaccinated?_
> 
> (I’m genuinely curious.  I know the vaccine isn’t magic, but there are a lot of articles talking about numbers going up almost everywhere.  Why is this the case if people have taken the shots?)


Breakthrough cases are happening and we have likely not hit herd immunity for this virus.  Add to that, that we are reopening and congregating more indoors and colder weather (resulting in more indoor activity) and the case count starts to climb again.

Now, how many are dying or being hospitalized with this climb is likely the factor we should be looking at.  Cases are going up but are less people dying or being put into an ICU because of the vaccine.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> _Why are numbers continuing to go up, if more & more people are getting vaccinated?_


Like Remius said.

There seems to be a lot of stories like this,



> Of the COVID patients in the ICU, all but one were unvaccinated. All eight patients on ventilators were unvaccinated.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> Why not just stop dicking around and have the military go and use force to vaccinate citizens?


Hardly seems like Austria is "dicking around".



> The move prohibits unvaccinated individuals older than age 12 from leaving their homes except for basic activities such as working, grocery shopping, going for a walk – or getting vaccinated.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Some temporary lockdown restrictions to help prevent the numbers from rising may just be required.





> As annoying & frustrating as the situation is, we have to remind ourselves that we can’t throw freedom away when it becomes inconvenient.



Can't have it both ways.  Either a rule is backed by (ultimately) deadly force, or its just a suggestion.  Eric Garner died because selling "loosies" was a crime.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jarnhamar said:


> Why not just stop dicking around and have the military go and use force to vaccinate citizens?


Why not just stop dicking around and have the military go and put the anti vaxxers in camps?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, on the Human Rights front....


In these challenging times it is critical for us all to place human rights at the centre of our decision making. This is why BCOHRC has devoted significant resources to responding to the human rights issues that have arisen as a result of the COVID-19 global pandemic.










						COVID-19 - BC's Office of the Human Rights Commissioner
					

A message from Commissioner Govender Human rights are never more important than in times of crisis. It is in these challenging times that it becomes critical for us all to...




					bchumanrights.ca


----------



## QV

U.S. appeals court affirms hold on Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate
					

A U.S. appeals court on Friday upheld its decision to put on hold an order by President Joe Biden for companies with 100 workers or more to require COVID-19 vaccines, rejecting a challenge by his administration.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## winds_13

Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home
					

Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## winds_13

Most recent data coming out of Israel on the degree to which vaccine protection is waning, and why booster shots are necessary.

Waning Immunity after the BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel​








						Waning Immunity after the BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel | NEJM
					

Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Waning Immunity after the BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel



					www.nejm.org


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Can't have it both ways.  Either a rule is backed by (ultimately) deadly force, or its just a suggestion.  Eric Garner died because selling "loosies" was a crime.



No, that’s not accurate. Police / peace officers in Canada don’t get to use deadly force to enforce rules. Force that is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm can only be used in very narrow circumstances, always involving a reasonable perception of imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm.

Someone can be charged and potentially arrested for disobeying laws. There may be lawful resort to lesser force to enforce compliance, such as to effect arrest, or to remove a trespasser. But there’s a hard stop on how much force can be used to enforce compliance. Force likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm isn’t in the toolbox. That only comes out if the subject presents that same level of threat to police or someone else. So, to take this to the dumb extreme- authorities could not force people into camps and threaten deadly force to keep them there. Nor could deadly force be used to enforce quarantine.


----------



## Brad Sallows

So if someone physically resists arrest enough, they will be allowed to continue on their way?


----------



## Booter

No. But then the force is for the offence of resisting arrest or assault. It’s not for jaywalking. 

Disengagement is considered. Like when someone takes off on an officer in a car for a traffic offence we don’t engage in dangerous actions that could cause harm to them or someone else. We find an alternative way to identify the driver and compel them to court.

However, a normal interaction- like checking someone is home as per their conditions- that escalates to someone dying- isn’t because of the check, it is because new dangerous offences happen when the officer is lawfully placed, 

You may think that to be semantics but it isn’t.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Nothing like blaming the ineffectiveness of a vaccine on the people that won't get vaccinated.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> No, that’s not accurate. Police / peace officers in Canada don’t get to use deadly force to enforce rules. Force that is likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm can only be used in very narrow circumstances, always involving a reasonable perception of imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
> 
> Someone can be charged and potentially arrested for disobeying laws. There may be lawful resort to lesser force to enforce compliance, such as to effect arrest, or to remove a trespasser. But there’s a hard stop on how much force can be used to enforce compliance. Force likely to cause death or grievous bodily harm isn’t in the toolbox. That only comes out if the subject presents that same level of threat to police or someone else. So, to take this to the dumb extreme- authorities could not force people into camps and threaten deadly force to keep them there. Nor could deadly force be used to enforce quarantine.


Not only that, I don't believe there are any powers of arrest in the federal Emergencies Act or its orders (regulations), let alone any authority to bodily force vaccinations.  I know there are no such powers in Ontario's act.



Brad Sallows said:


> Can't have it both ways.  Either a rule is backed by (ultimately) deadly force, or its just a suggestion.  Eric Garner died because selling "loosies" was a crime.


'Speeding' is a rule.  In Ontario, you cannot be arrested for it alone, nor can the police simply kill you in its enforcement.  If you think speeding is just a suggestion, I suggest you not try that argument when pulling over.  I will suggest that they will suggest you make that argument in court.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You may think that to be semantics but it isn’t.



Sure, it's semantics, but the semantics don't matter.  The whole point stems from the question of whether or not the state will decline to escalate in order to preserve a life, particularly when the initiating item is trivial.


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure, it's semantics, but the semantics don't matter.  The whole point stems from the question of whether or not the state will decline to escalate in order to preserve a life, particularly when the initiating item is trivial.


The answer is yes. They will disengage and try a different path where the initiating item is trivial. 

What they plan to do with their Covid related laws who knows. It’s been essentially a dogs breakfast in the two provinces I’ve had to navigate it in. 

Your trivial item is another persons pandemic mitigation, so what is “trivial” is a moving target


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure, it's semantics, but the semantics don't matter.  The whole point stems from the question of whether or not the state will decline to escalate in order to preserve a life, particularly when the initiating item is trivial.


Three serving police officers have told you that’s what will happen, yes.

We don’t get to just escalate indefinitely. Unless there’s a threat of death or GBH, we cannot use deadly force. S.25 of the Crim Code empowers us but also constrains us. “The state” in this case is lenaitch, booter, or I, or someone like us, and we know what legal authorities we do and don’t have. While it’s very rare that ‘the other guy’ will win a fight and get away, that has mostly to do with radios and backup, not because we will shoot someone over a small thing that they chose to escalate needlessly. Without that threat to us or someone else, there’s a point at which we’ll stop.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Nothing wrong with a dogpile.  Just don't want to read about any more extra-judicial deaths.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> Nothing wrong with a dogpile.  Just don't want to read about any more extra-judicial deaths.


Over COVID vaccinations?  Really?


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> Nothing wrong with a dogpile.  Just don't want to read about any more extra-judicial deaths.


Please let me know of killings in Canada considered “extra-judicial”.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I suppose you could peruse this list.  Most involved some kind of weapon and threat by the deceased.  Not all, though.  Dziekanski's is one I would prefer not to have happened.


----------



## Booter

No. You need to “Wikipedia” your  terminology. You said extra judicial killings. Which are a specific thing.


----------



## Brad Sallows

You're right, they are.  I don't mean deliberately-ordered killings; I mean killings by agents of the state without a sentence of death passed by a court.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:


> You're right, they are.  I don't mean deliberately-ordered killings; I mean killings by agents of the state without a sentence of death passed by a court.


Stop tap dancing.....WTF are you trying to say?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Then there is Roger Kotanko.








						Friend speaks out after gunsmith, 70, shot dead by police near area beach town
					

PORT RYERSE – Witnesses, neighbours and friends have identified a Norfolk County man killed in an interaction with Toronto police this week as gunsmith Rodger…




					lfpress.com


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Then there is Roger Kotanko.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Friend speaks out after gunsmith, 70, shot dead by police near area beach town
> 
> 
> PORT RYERSE – Witnesses, neighbours and friends have identified a Norfolk County man killed in an interaction with Toronto police this week as gunsmith Rodger…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lfpress.com


We’ll all have to wait for the SIU investigation on that one, which I’m sure will include information on what the search warrant was being executed for, and what actions on his part caused police to feel the need to fire. They will decide whether to refer to prosecutors or not.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Um, er, uh.... OK...

Deadly COVID-19 spike after church event is 'unfortunate' but part of God's plan, says pastor​



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-gospel-light-baptist-church-covid-outbreak-1.6250957


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> You're right, they are.  I don't mean deliberately-ordered killings; I mean killings by agents of the state without a sentence of death passed by a court.


That’s not the system we have or have ever had. 

But, I was attached to a team- and the process always including the court system- the director of prosecutions reviewing in minutiae the details and events before a very detailed decision about why the event was justified. 

The court does have its place- and it’s where they authorize in wording and legislation that we use as much force as necessary. Or they authorized the warrant knowing that there was potentially going to be some level of opposition and that may contain cycles of escalating force.

I haven’t used force associated to Covid in two years. And I haven’t had an event in either of the two districts or the two provinces I’ve been managing the officers who WOULD be in those situation. 

There has been incidents across the country, but we re a long way off killing someone over a vaccine mandate- and I mean long way off like not on the horizon. 

 That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a jaundiced eye double checking authority. I can appreciate that.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Stop tap dancing.....WTF are you trying to say?



Killings by agents of the state - police, mainly, since these things rarely happen at the hands of employees of any other agencies.  "Extra" means "outside"; I meant "outside the judicial process" but "extra-judicial killing" is also a term of art (which I once knew, but had forgotten) with a specific meaning where it is used.

The cases I have in mind are those that start small and escalate, not the ones that begin with an imminent threat to life.  At some point, the rational people involved have to be the ones to back down (the irrational person obviously can't be depended on to do so) by not offering "tit" for "tat".  So, no pandemic mitigation enforcement that goads a person into, say, escalating to the point where he picks up a knife.  If someone is angry, let him vent until he is ready to move on.  It might mean some people have to swallow pride, indignation, whatever.  I have to suppose that if we can do it for mobs of protestors and rioters, it can be done for individuals.

To recap: We can either add regulations and compromise on liberty, or not add regulations and not compromise on liberty.  If we add regulations, they are only suggestions if not enforced.  If they are enforced, the potential for someone to escalate irrationally exists.  Let those ones go - 99% (say) of people will still comply.  While no-one here is the type of person who would lose his cool over seeing his state-backed authority challenged, such people do exist.  I've met a few in person.  I suppose the psych screening isn't perfected yet.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Killings by agents of the state - police, mainly, since these things rarely happen at the hands of employees of any other agencies.  "Extra" means "outside"; I meant "outside the judicial process" but "extra-judicial killing" is also a term of art (which I once knew, but had forgotten) with a specific meaning where it is used.
> 
> The cases I have in mind are those that start small and escalate, not the ones that begin with an imminent threat to life.  At some point, the rational people involved have to be the ones to back down (the irrational person obviously can't be depended on to do so) by not offering "tit" for "tat".  So, no pandemic mitigation enforcement that goads a person into, say, escalating to the point where he picks up a knife.  If someone is angry, let him vent until he is ready to move on.  It might mean some people have to swallow pride, indignation, whatever.  I have to suppose that if we can do it for mobs of protestors and rioters, it can be done for individuals.
> 
> *To recap: We can either add regulations and compromise on liberty, or not add regulations and not compromise on liberty. * If we add regulations, they are only suggestions if not enforced.  If they are enforced, the potential for someone to escalate irrationally exists.  Let those ones go - 99% (say) of people will still comply.  While no-one here is the type of person who would lose his cool over seeing his state-backed authority challenged, such people do exist.  I've met a few in person.  I suppose the psych screening isn't perfected yet.



Oh pshaw... forget that wishy washy 'liberty' stuff. Why not go 'full metal sovereign'?

"Sovereign citizens believe that they – not judges, juries, law enforcement or elected officials – should decide which laws to obey and which to ignore. Most sovereign citizens also don’t believe they should have to pay taxes. They clog up the courts with indecipherable filings and, when cornered, many of them lash out, retaliating through acts of paper terrorism and, in the most extreme cases, acts of deadly violence – usually directed against government officials. In May 2010, for example, a father-son team of sovereigns murdered two police officers with an assault rifle when they were pulled over on the interstate while traveling through West Memphis, Arkansas.

The roots of the movement are racist and antisemitic. It was founded by William Potter Gale, former member of the John Birch Society. Potter formed a group of antigovernment Christian Identity adherents who mistrusted state and federal officials. They believed that non-white people were not human, and that Jews possessed a satanic plot to take over the world. They identified themselves as Posse Comitatus, which is Latin for “power of the county” and centered around the idea that county sheriffs are the highest governmental authority."









						Sovereign Citizens Movement
					

Sovereign citizens believe they are not under the jurisdiction of the federal government and consider themselves exempt from U.S. law. They use a variety of conspiracy theories and falsehoods to justify their beliefs and their activities, some of which are illegal and violent.




					www.splcenter.org


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:


> Killings by agents of the state - police, mainly, since these things rarely happen at the hands of employees of any other agencies.  "Extra" means "outside"; I meant "outside the judicial process" but "extra-judicial killing" is also a term of art (which I once knew, but had forgotten) with a specific meaning where it is used.
> 
> The cases I have in mind are those that start small and escalate, not the ones that begin with an imminent threat to life.  At some point, the rational people involved have to be the ones to back down (the irrational person obviously can't be depended on to do so) by not offering "tit" for "tat".  So, no pandemic mitigation enforcement that goads a person into, say, escalating to the point where he picks up a knife.  If someone is angry, let him vent until he is ready to move on.  It might mean some people have to swallow pride, indignation, whatever.  I have to suppose that if we can do it for mobs of protestors and rioters, it can be done for individuals.
> 
> To recap: We can either add regulations and compromise on liberty, or not add regulations and not compromise on liberty.  If we add regulations, they are only suggestions if not enforced.  If they are enforced, the potential for someone to escalate irrationally exists.  Let those ones go - 99% (say) of people will still comply.  While no-one here is the type of person who would lose his cool over seeing his state-backed authority challenged, such people do exist.  I've met a few in person.  I suppose the psych screening isn't perfected yet.


True, no psych evaluation is perfect, nor will it likely ever be.

I've lost track of where this discussion started, except in the hypothetical musing that the State will somehow escalate to engage its various agents to forcibly hold down and force vaccinations.  That authority is not in any legislation that I am aware of, nor could it be, notwithstanding the view of some that elected officials have potentially unlimited power.

The vast majority of Covid-related emergency orders are directed at workplaces and public-facing institutions.  Unfortunately, most of the 'enforcement' is laid at the feet of employers and staff.  Generally, the only role law enforcement has had is being called to disturbances and, in some cases, assisting public health officials in compliance 'visits'.  Quite frankly, law enforcement has neither the time nor staffing to deal with this legislation first-hand (with the likely exception of CBSA).  The one incident that sticks in my mind is a customer who attended a grocery store, assaulted a staffer over Covid restrictions then raced away.  The cops broke off a pursuit (you would likely be surprised how often that happens now) and tracked him down to his residence.  He fired a couple of rounds at attending officers and paid the price.  Covid-caused social restrictions have clearly been pushing buttons in a wide variety of ways, but I suspect with many, the buttons were already there, it just took a catalyst.

A lot of police-public encounters that end in violence start out as 'low threat' incidents.  I would argue that, in recent times, law enforcement will more often default to disengage, contain and regroup/call in more resources.  I can think of several incidents where barricaded scenes have been held for hours and hours (no hostages involved) in order to obtain a peaceful conclusion, yet have been criticized by displaced neighbours, etc. for simply not 'going in'.  Law enforcement does not work in an 'acceptable loss' environment.  Then again, some encounters don't allow the luxury of disengagement.  The 'routine traffic stop', as well as many other so-called 'routine' encounters are historically some of the most deadly for law enforcement.

For clarity, if I was included in an earlier post a one of the "serving police officers"; sorry, been gone for 17 years.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> The one incident that sticks in my mind is a customer who attended a grocery store, assaulted a staffer over Covid restrictions then raced away.  The cops broke off a pursuit (you would likely be surprised how often that happens now) and tracked him down to his residence.  He fired a couple of rounds at attending officers and paid the price.



Huh.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Astral Codex Ten (Slatestarcodex), on Ivermectin, COVID, and Worms.  Long article.  For short version, with interesting hypothesis, go to section "The Synthesis".

[Add teaser:]

"Treatment of worm infections might reduce the negative effect of COVID-19! And ivermectin is a deworming drug! You can see where this is going…"


----------



## lenaitch

Brad Sallows said:


> Huh.











						He had 'intent on killing police officers', SIU clears officers in fatal Minden, Ont., shooting last July
					

Ontario's police watchdog has cleared the officers involved in a shooting that left a 73-year-old man dead in Haliburton County last July.




					barrie.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Scott

daftandbarmy said:


> Um, er, uh.... OK...
> 
> Deadly COVID-19 spike after church event is 'unfortunate' but part of God's plan, says pastor​
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-gospel-light-baptist-church-covid-outbreak-1.6250957



And the latest about Pastor Sidehow Bob: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/covid-19-briefing-november-17-2021-1.6251877

N.S. premier blasts organizers of religious gathering that sparked fatal COVID-19 outbreak​'The comments minimizing the loss of life are completely unacceptable and totally disgusting'​


----------



## brihard

lenaitch said:


> He had 'intent on killing police officers', SIU clears officers in fatal Minden, Ont., shooting last July
> 
> 
> Ontario's police watchdog has cleared the officers involved in a shooting that left a 73-year-old man dead in Haliburton County last July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barrie.ctvnews.ca


Mm hm. Don't shoot at police. Not a difficult concept.

Doesn't matter how the situation started. If police are pursuing an investigation or have lawful grounds to arrest someone, they are allowed to do those things. If they come to your house and you shoot at them, this situation is no longer about the initial assault, or trespass, or whatever.  He had the ability to meet them at the door _without_ shooting at them. Or even just not answer the door, tell them to eff off, and then they simply go and get a _Feeney_ warrant to enter the residence so they can arrest him. As soon as he shot at police though, now they can (and must!) defend themselves against an imminent threat.

This one is pure stupid games / stupid prizes.


----------



## Brad Sallows

lenaitch said:


> He had 'intent on killing police officers', SIU clears officers in fatal Minden, Ont., shooting last July
> 
> 
> Ontario's police watchdog has cleared the officers involved in a shooting that left a 73-year-old man dead in Haliburton County last July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> barrie.ctvnews.ca



Yeah, I get that.  He was in a high state of emotion, probably angry, and the police showed up.  That always defuses a situation, sure.  What if he'd been given some time (days, if necessary) to cool down?

That a mentally/emotionally disturbed/angry person can be pushed into escalating a situation that opens the gates for use of deadly force is not unusual.  But these roundabout executions should stop.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Doesn't matter how the situation started.



It matters a great deal if the person is not in a "reasonable person" frame of mind.  The people capable of reasonable thought have some responsibility to de-pressurize the situation.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah, I get that.  He was in a high state of emotion, probably angry, and the police showed up.  That always defuses a situation, sure.  What if he'd been given some time (days, if necessary) to cool down?
> 
> That a mentally/emotionally disturbed/angry person can be pushed into escalating a situation that opens the gates for use of deadly force is not unusual.  But these roundabout executions should stop.



"Roundabout execution"? Oh give me a break. There was no reason they should have expected gunfire when they arrived at his place. Do you have any idea how normal and constant it is for police to have to go to the house of someone who did something minorly violent and stupid?  It may surprise you, but a lot of people are _always_ angry dealing with police. Reasonable people are not our customer base. Tough shit. Make better choices. It's not like they were smashing down his door in the night by surprise and he acted stupidly without time to consider. Police _also_ have a responsibility to investigate violent offences, and to take people into custody who present a danger to others.

"Roundabout execution"... That's a profoundly dumb take.


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah, I get that.  He was in a high state of emotion, probably angry, and the police showed up.  That always defuses a situation, sure.  What if he'd been given some time (days, if necessary) to cool down?
> 
> That a mentally/emotionally disturbed/angry person can be pushed into escalating a situation that opens the gates for use of deadly force is not unusual.  But these roundabout executions should stop.


A person that gets mad like that and their next move is to shoot at people- you feel there is no risk to the public that this person makes other kinds of bad decisions? 

Like shooting at their neighbours, or going back to the store, 

Of course that’s mind reading. But those aren’t hypotheticals. They are real things that happen and telling the family of dead people “we were giving him time to cool off” so we don’t upset the person who assaults and tries to murder people is poor relief.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> It matters a great deal if the person is not in a "reasonable person" frame of mind.  The people capable of reasonable thought have some responsibility to de-pressurize the situation.



Good point.

'Two the the chest' helps take the pressure off of the trigger of the bad guy's weapon.


----------



## Brad Sallows

You're right.  Fuck all the people having a bad day/week/life.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> You're right.  Fuck all the people having a bad day/week/life.


…who decide to up the ante with disproportionate violence towards LE or other citizens!


We’re agreed, then.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> You're right.  Fuck all the people having a bad day/week/life.


I've had a lot of those, going through plenty of them lately. Never shot at anyone over it.

At a certain point, people's individual failures have to stop being the fault of police or others. Everyone is accountable for their actions and choices. If someone wants to smack a retail worker, lead police on a chase, then shoot at them and get shot in self defense, that's the product of a lot of choices on his part.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Some of you place too much weight on "decide" and "choose".  I get that the fallback is to be process-driven and shelter behind the process.  The process doesn't work very well for people who don't fall in the normal range of impulses and impulse control.


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> Some of you place too much weight on "decide" and "choose".  I get that the fallback is to be process-driven and shelter behind the process.  The process doesn't work very well for people who don't fall in the normal range of impulses and impulse control.


You tell us what works better.

And that’s an honest inquiry. Because you’re telling me what I do, and have trained people internationally- and what I believe is the best system I’ve come across is lacking- and it is, because it’s made of people.

What is the better way to deal with potentially violent people, because the read I have is- nobody does anything until the angry person with poor impulse control kills someone.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I'll leave the responsibility for figuring out how to deal with people with off-balance brain chemistry without killing them to the people who claim authority to deal with the problem.


----------



## PMedMoe

Maybe this thread needs a split...


----------



## Booter

PMedMoe said:


> Maybe this thread needs a split...


we re at an impasse anyway. I’ll stop beating my drum on this part.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> I'll leave the responsibility for figuring out how to deal with people with off-balance brain chemistry without killing them to the people who claim authority to deal with the problem.


If you're going to disavow responsibility for figuring out how better to deal with the problem, slags like 'roundabout execution' might be something to avoid then. In any case, I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It's a fair characterization.  Clearly we don't know how to deal with some people in the long tail of a normal distribution without risking killing them.  So they become disposable; we excuse ourselves with process, throw all the responsibility back on them, and just try not to talk about the problem, and obviously very few people are so seized with the issue as to deal with it.  The inconvenient people just "go away".

Where COVID is concerned we have a very small, occasionally angry minority; we have a very large, frequently anxious majority.  That's a starting point for callous treatment.  Inevitably when people look back on periods of callous treatment, variations on "how did that happen" arise.  Part of not letting it happen is being watchful in the first place, and by refusing to do it in the moment in the second.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Sorry Brad but your posts here belong on a Monty Python skit.   I'll bet a lot of families in NS wish there had been a reason to go to a certain person's house before that day....


----------



## Brad Sallows

So lots of common people could stand to look up what "tolerance" really means.  It's not a synonym for "celebration".  A lot of people who think of themselves as tolerant and forgiving come up short.


----------



## Good2Golf

Perhaps I’m in the very small minority, don’t know, but while I normally look to your posts Brad, as being thought provoking in a critical thinking kind of way, your recent trend doubling, tripling and quadrupling down on “roundabout execution” is disappointing and demonstrates un unfortunately biased and uncritical line of thought, IMO. Probably means nothing to you for me or anyone else to say that, but I think your assertion is misplaced and gives negative credit to LE that you posit should be more understanding of the unfortunate mental health outliers.  $0.02


----------



## Brad Sallows

I've mellowed with age.  Twenty years ago I was where many people seem to be now - people get what they deserve for not making the right choices, bad situations are entirely of their own making and the rest of us are only responding to their provocations, etc.  However, I never believed the notion that what people are is entirely a result of "nurture" and choice.  Biology and particularly "brain chemistry" isn't a single setting, and birth is a lottery, not a choice.  Some people start with shitty lives and sometimes things never really get better for them, and it's not entirely of their doing.  Escalation generally only happens if all parties involved participate.

With the trend to restorative justice, lighter sentences, letting frustrated protestors and even mobs work out their anger, etc, allowing situations with mentally ill or merely temporarily very angry people (ie. a protest or mob of "one") to escalate to the point of use of deadly force is an aberration which is due for correction.  Probably our "best practices" right now are not the absolute "best practices".  Yes, there are risks to having unbalanced people living freely among us, ranging from mere curmudgeons to genuine pyschopaths and sociopaths.  We chose that risk.  I express my criticism harshly because while harshness puts people on the defensive and is not generally persuasive, it also forces confrontation.  Some will choose to defend status quo; some will re-examine the problem.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> I've mellowed with age.  Twenty years ago I was where many people seem to be now - people get what they deserve for not making the right choices, bad situations are entirely of their own making and the rest of us are only responding to their provocations, etc.  However, I never believed the notion that what people are is entirely a result of "nurture" and choice.  Biology and particularly "brain chemistry" isn't a single setting, and birth is a lottery, not a choice.  Some people start with shitty lives and sometimes things never really get better for them, and it's not entirely of their doing.  Escalation generally only happens if all parties involved participate.
> 
> With the trend to restorative justice, lighter sentences, letting frustrated protestors and even mobs work out their anger, etc, allowing situations with mentally ill or merely temporarily very angry people (ie. a protest or mob of "one") to escalate to the point of use of deadly force is an aberration which is due for correction.  Probably our "best practices" right now are not the absolute "best practices".  Yes, there are risks to having unbalanced people living freely among us, ranging from mere curmudgeons to genuine pyschopaths and sociopaths.  We chose that risk.  I express my criticism harshly because while harshness puts people on the defensive and is not generally persuasive, it also forces confrontation.  Some will choose to defend status quo; some will re-examine the problem.


You're completely missing it. It's not a matter of 'get what you deserve'. That's what courts are for. It's a matter of if you threaten us with death or serious harm, we're allowed to defend ourselves, and we will do so, ideally fast enough and decisively enough for it to work.

Deescalation, trading space for time, and letting things simmer down happens constantly. I can't count the number of times I've personally been involved in situations where we allowed exactly that rather than moving in immediately and using lawful force. Deescalation, space for time, and and communication and foundational parts of our entire use of force model. That is simply not always an option the other person gives you, however.

There are several millions - probably tens of millions - of interactions between Canadians and police any year. Many of these are confrontational. An overwhelming majority result in no injury, no physical harm to anyone. The majority of those that do still land well short of serious injury or death. It is normal and constant for less force to be used than legally could be.

Genuine question, and I'm not at all asking this snarkily, but because I really don't know much about you. Have you ever had to carry a weapon in the course of duties where there was a realistic chance that you may end up in a confrontation with someone who could do you harm, with or without good reason, and where you expect to need to defend yourself or others? I'm really struggling to reconcile some of what you're saying with what I would expect from even modest lived experience.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You're completely missing it. It's not a matter of 'get what you deserve'. That's what courts are for. It's a matter of if you threaten us with death or serious harm, we're allowed to defend ourselves, and we will do so, ideally fast enough and decisively enough for it to work.



I'm not missing it.  What I'm interested in happens before the courts get involved.  I read and hear plenty of sentiments expressed as "well, he got what he deserved" about lives that ended before the matter got to a court.  I know you're allowed to defend yourselves, but I also know that sometimes the situation does not immediately go from "zero" to "threat of death or serious harm" (those are the terrorist, active shooter, etc scenarios which are not the same thing at all); there is a sequence of A does, B does, A does... which produces the result.



> Have you ever had to carry a weapon in the course of duties where there was a realistic chance that you may end up in a confrontation with someone who could do you harm, with or without good reason, and where you expect to need to defend yourself or others?



No.  But ultimately all police authority (in Canada) is delegated from "the people".  I understand de-escalation occurs.  I'd like it to happen more often.  I am not alone in this.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> But ultimately all police authority (in Canada) is delegated from "the people".  I understand de-escalation occurs.  I'd like it to happen more often.  I am not alone in this.



Then pressure your local MP to influence the government to up fund mental health support so LE doesn't have to be the default scapegoat for lack of societal direct or indirect support for mental health of its citizens.  Bagging on LE for not de-esacalating enough for your tastes is not constructive.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Then pressure your local MP to influence the government to up fund mental health support so LE doesn't have to be the default scapegoat for lack of societal direct or indirect support for mental health of its citizens.



Doesn't fix the problem.  If the sane sub-faction of "Defund the Police" (the people who want more social services, not necessarily at the expense of police services) succeeds, there should be fewer situations which escalate to deadly response.  But for every situation on the ground - and those situations will still happen - bagging on LE is all that there is.


----------



## Booter

The secret no one will talk about is that social services and mental health teams won’t work with those people without an armed officer there either though. Because whether people want to admit it or not- the potential to need that response is there. 

I managed those teams. And no one got shot, but they still needed the police and they were still involved in the de-escalation.

A few years ago, across millions of interactions in Canada there was 119 (or 109 I don’t recall exactly but I’ll go to the upper) firearms uses by Canadian police officers, enforcement wise, across all levels in Canada. 

It was an incredibly low number when you factored in the spectrum of calls that was including. 

It’s a 119 places we maybe could identify a place we could do better in some way. But it’s a number that most countries, per capita, would have as a goal.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Have you ever had to carry a weapon in the course of duties where there was a realistic chance that you may end up in a confrontation with someone who could do you harm, with or without good reason, and where you expect to need to defend yourself or others?


You weren't asking me. But, I worked part-time for Brinks. I had a CZ licence, so most of my time was spent behind the wheel, with a .38 and a shotgun in the cab.

I remember a Messenger who had permanently taped back the safety strap on his holster. ( The Boss Rogers type that had replaced the old flap style. )

Not knowing any better, I said that looks like a good idea. Lets you get a quicker draw.

No, he said. It's so when I put my hands up, the robber(s) can remove it easier.   



> The secret no one will talk about is that social services and mental health teams won’t work with those people without an armed officer there either though



Social workers have the right to refuse. Our Delay Service S.O.P. was pretty simple.



> "Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 *These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work* where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."





> "Not enter a scene until the appropriate agency has arrived in circumstances involving;
> • the *use* of weapons at the scene;
> • *continuing* violence at the scene;
> • fire / hazardous materials"





> "The decision to delay paramedic service must include recognizing and evaluating the reasons for problematic patient behaviour—such as metabolic causes of combative behaviour—*to ensure staff are not jeopardizing the patient’s life, health or safety.*





> 4. wait for police assistance if,
> a. there is an active shooter scenario, or
> b. there is direct evidence of ongoing violence;





> 5. if electing to delay service as per paragraph 4 above, immediately notify CACC/ACS;



On 9-1-1 calls, no matter what the Call Originator(s) say, you really don't know what to expect on a scene until you check it out.

Usually the call originator was a third party. They just wanted the problem gone. Didn't care if paramedics took the individual to a hospital, or by police to the jail house.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> Doesn't fix the problem.


It will, but will take years, decades.  Defunding MH support happened over decades, so probably it'll take the same to help societal MH to previously more stable levels.



Brad Sallows said:


> If the sane sub-faction of "Defund the Police" (the people who want more social services, not necessarily at the expense of police services) succeeds, there should be fewer situations which escalate to deadly response.  But for every situation on the ground - and those situations will still happen - bagging on LE is all that there is.


I hope that the progressive (and supposedly compassionate) elements in our society actually do improve MH across the board.  I am skeptical that it will, but quite confident, as you point out, that the easy way out will be to complain that LE is falling society by not being compassionate enough.  Say what you will, but I still think that's unconstructive...if not actually a cowardly attitude.  Belief that wider and more extensive disengagement by LE will lead to a peaceful nirvana is...well...an unwise use of 'hope.'


----------



## Brad Sallows

I seek fewer, not none.  In particular, a bit more leeway for misfits to survive their worst episodes.


----------



## Booter

We very regularly, contain houses with lone, violent aggressive people for dozens of hours while they shoot out their windows, fire rounds into the sky, and do general havoc until they give up- so they are surviving their bad day.

And we set the containment at distances so we aren’t just shooting people, layers of less lethal options. Disengagement plans.

Your wide swath statements are complete nonsense. As an institution we want less shootings too. Individually there are bad people.

Im unsubscribing from this thread so you guys can have your conversation- my pm’s are open.

I am missing something here!


----------



## PMedMoe

And again, moderators, can we split this thread??


----------



## Jarnhamar

Booter said:


> * What is the better way to deal with potentially violent people* , because the read I have is- nobody does anything until the angry person with poor impulse control kills someone.



A suspended sentence? 


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-appeal-1.6250591


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> A suspended sentence?
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-appeal-1.6250591


No, it looks like the sentence is being upheld.  The appeal has been dismissed and that Guy is facing the consequences.  Unless I’m reading that wrong?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> No, it looks like the sentence is being upheld.  The appeal has been dismissed and that Guy is facing the consequences.  Unless I’m reading that wrong?


No, you're right thankfully.  A 30 day sentence for kicking a handcuffed person laying face down then lying about it multiple times is still a joke.  Not sure now that's not an automatic dismissal.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> A suspended sentence?
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-appeal-1.6250591


He was given a 30 day jail sentence. He appealed that sentence. His appeal was tossed out. He’ll do thirty days in jail, and will definitely lose his job- something I’m sure the judge was live to in sentencing.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> No, you're right thankfully.  A 30 day sentence for kicking a handcuffed person laying face down then lying about it multiple times is still a joke.  Not sure now that's not an automatic dismissal.


No such thing as automatic dismissal for anything, the process has to happen to that the dismissal can be legally upheld- but with that sentence it’s a pretty foregone conclusion.

Which is good. He’s unfit to be a police officer, or to be entrusted with that responsibility or power. Get rid of him.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> No, you're right thankfully.  A 30 day sentence for kicking a handcuffed person laying face down then lying about it multiple times is still a joke.  Not sure now that's not an automatic dismissal.


It’s the main reason it was being appealed as it will inevitably lead to his dismissal.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> He’ll do thirty days in jail


Is it because of covid or is it normal for it to take 2 years to carry out a sentence? 



> and will definitely lose his job- something I’m sure the judge was live to in sentencing.



Hopefully, and hopefully he wasn't getting paid this whole time.


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> He was given a 30 day jail sentence. He appealed that sentence. His appeal was tossed out. He’ll do thirty days in jail, and will definitely lose his job- something I’m sure the judge was live to in sentencing.


30 days actually is about 21 days, dependent on which province sentences you.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Sorry all; went down a rabbit hole and side tracked.

Its nice to see the CAF moving forward with remedial measures for non compliant members for vaccinations.


----------



## dapaterson

Most provincial police acts have no continuing liability provisions.  Officers retire the day before their hearing and avoid any professional sanction.

Continuing liability is needed - retirement should be no escape.


----------



## lenaitch

Jarnhamar said:


> Is it because of covid or is it normal for it to take 2 years to carry out a sentence?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, and hopefully he wasn't getting paid this whole time.


No, it's pretty normal in Ontario, particularly in the GTA and particularly when an appeal is involved.

According to the Police Services Act (Ontario), he would be paid up to the point that he was originally given the custodial sentence (notwithstanding the appeal).  The previous government proposed changes that did not survive the change of government.  The current government has passed changes that would allow a chief to suspend w/o pay under certain conditions but they have not received Royal Assent - for something like three years.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:


> *Sorry all; went down a rabbit hole and side tracked.*
> 
> Its nice to see the CAF moving forward with remedial measures for non compliant members for vaccinations.


----------



## lenaitch

dapaterson said:


> Most provincial police acts have no continuing liability provisions.  Officers retire the day before their hearing and avoid any professional sanction.
> 
> Continuing liability is needed - retirement should be no escape.


I get what you are saying but it is basically employment law, and once that linkage is severed, I'm not sure what disciplinary sanction could be imposed.  You can't fire them, dock their pay or rank - they're already gone.  Criminal liability remains.


----------



## dapaterson

CAF members remain liable for their conduct after release.  No reason police could not also be held to that standard.

As I recall, there were amendments to te Ontario Police Act that would have made officers liable after retirement; the current Ontario government cancelled regulations to bring those provisions into force, and I believe also repealed that legislation.

Disciplinary sanctions are not only for those punished, but also for the communities of both LEOs and civilians to reinforce behaviours.


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


>


----------



## QV

Are you ok with this?



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pfizer-vaccine-children-delivery-1.6255108
		



Now how about this?






						FDA Asks Court for 55 Years to Fully Release Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Data – NTD CANADA
					






					ntdca.com


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> FDA Asks Court for 55 Years to Fully Release Pfizer COVID-19 Vaccine Data – NTD CANADA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ntdca.com


Where do you find these sites?


----------



## OceanBonfire

QV said:


> Are you ok with this?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pfizer-vaccine-children-delivery-1.6255108
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Where do you find these sites?


New Tang Dynasty Television, apparently.






						New Tang Dynasty Television - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> Where do you find these sites?











						Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data
					

Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.




					www.reuters.com
				




Are you ok with it?


----------



## QV

OceanBonfire said:


> Absolutely.


You’re ok with that even though the FDA wants to bury the data on the vaccines. Got it.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Wait what? FDA wants 55 years to process FOIA request over vaccine data
> 
> 
> Freedom of Information Act requests are rarely speedy, but when a group of scientists asked the federal government to share the data it relied upon in licensing Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, the response went beyond typical bureaucratic foot-dragging.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you ok with it?


Reuters, yes.

I know I'm old-fashioned with my newspaper subscription. Opinions varied. But, at least people used to agree on the facts. 

Where do you find things like New Tang Dynasty?


----------



## Booter

QV- I think that time line is bizarre. But I see that they plan on vetting 330 thousand documents. 

500 a month seems light-maybe 2000 a month is more reasonable. But I don’t know the complexity of this kindve stuff.

But I read that and see a process not designed for the volume not someone trying to bury something. 

Maybe if I knew the timelines of similar amounts with similar complexity I could be more concerned.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Is there a statute from preventing them from releasing it piecemeal?


----------



## mariomike

Saw this over in Kyle's thread.



Booter said:


> There’s 36 thousand Nypd officers. They can absorb that loss





> When asked if the department has had to move shifts around due to officers being placed on unpaid leave, ( NYPD Commissioner Dermot Shea ) said "no we really haven't...it's really status quo."



Same with FDNY firefighters and paramedics.



> All units are staffed, medical leave has returned to normal levels, response times have not increased, and the Department is continuing to respond to all fire/medical calls that come our way,” FDNY Commissioner Daniel A. Nigro.



North of the border, in North America's fourth largest city - including Mexico City - response times remain unchanged with firefighters and paramedics. Suspensions began on 31 Oct. and termination on 13 Dec.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Saw this over in Kyle's thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same with FDNY firefighters and paramedics.
> 
> 
> 
> North of the border, in North America's fourth largest city - including Mexico City - response times remain unchanged with firefighters and paramedics. Suspensions began on 31 Oct. and termination on 13 Dec.



There’s been minimal if any impact among emergency services here. It’s been a very small albeit vocal minority kicking up a fuss; operations have carried on. Most of the gnashing of teeth from that small group has already faded. Some have quietly gotten vaccinated and gone back to work. A few have put in early retirements. A very scant few may make a fight of it, but that will basically just mean their pay stops and an LWOP entry gets paid in the system. Some have gone on sick leave to stave it off, that will only carry them for so long before other mechanisms kick in.

Most police, firefighters, and paramedics also like things like restaurants, concerts, sports events, and concerts anyway. Even well before any of these restrictions came into play, when we were offered vaccine clinics, uptake was enthusiastic and widespread.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> There’s been minimal if any impact among emergency services here. It’s been a very small albeit vocal minority kicking up a fuss; operations have carried on. Most of the gnashing of teeth from that small group has already faded. Some have quietly gotten vaccinated and gone back to work. A few have put in early retirements. A very scant few may make a fight of it, but that will basically just mean their pay stops and an LWOP entry gets paid in the system. Some have gone on sick leave to stave it off, that will only carry them for so long before other mechanisms kick in.
> 
> Most police, firefighters, and paramedics also like things like restaurants, concerts, sports events, and concerts anyway. Even well before any of these restrictions came into play, when we were offered vaccine clinics, uptake was enthusiastic and widespread.


As a retired person, I appreciate the police officers, firefighters and paramedics who complied with the vaccine mandate. They stepped up and prevented a staffing crisis.

They are supporting their fellow members and the public they swore an oath to serve.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> As a retired person, I appreciate the police officers, firefighters and paramedics who complied with the vaccine mandate. They stepped up and prevented a staffing crisis.
> 
> They are supporting their fellow members and the public they swore an oath to serve.


The overwhelming majority of us didn’t so much ‘comply with the mandate’, but rather when they shoved some stupid form at us, said “yeah, I did that five months ago, please keep up.” The mandate is a purely administrative exercise for most of us.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> they shoved some stupid form at us, said “yeah, I did that five months ago, please keep up.”


I guess the "us" part depends on jurisdiction.

Pretty simple in the one I am familiar with.

As of 31 Oct. without documented proof of being double vaxxed - not tested - they went on unpaid suspension.

Apparently the employer on the west side of Etobicoke Creek is more tolerant of the vaccine hesitant. 

They offer rapid testing. For now.

Depends on which side of the creek you work.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> I guess the "us" part depends on jurisdiction.
> 
> Pretty simple in the one I am familiar with.
> 
> As of 31 Oct. without documented proof of being double vaxxed - not tested - they went on unpaid suspension.
> 
> Apparently the employer on the west side of Etobicoke Creek is more tolerant of the vaccine hesitant.
> 
> They offer rapid testing. For now.
> 
> Depends on which side of the creek you work.


Ours is “trust but verify”. Attest to your status now and they’ll catch up on verification later, knowing that the vast majority will be honest and that those who aren’t will suffer serious consequences once caught.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Ours is “trust but verify”. Attest to your status now and they’ll catch up on verification later, knowing that the vast majority will be honest and that those who aren’t will suffer serious consequences once caught.



Depends on the jurisdiction. Sometimes , just being on the other side of a creek can make a difference.



> The City of Toronto requires proof of vaccination from all employees. Proof means documentation verifying receipt of a vaccination series approved by Health Canada or the World Health Organization.


----------



## Booter

There were some detachments with low rates, but overwhelmingly before all this mandate stuff my district was already vaccinated. Because we d spent a year dealing with it and were thankful to have the breakthrough.

I believe there was one person that abstained in the district. Which is a pretty large area. 

Then the mandate came 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Weinie

And for another view:

Bruce Pardy: COVID has cost Canadians their freedom. It must be restored


----------



## dapaterson

Double vaxxed Conservative MP tests positive; his unvaxxed peers will have to self isolate for the opening of Parliament 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462503071871819784


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> Double vaxxed Conservative MP tests positive; his unvaxxed peers will have to self isolate for the opening of Parliament
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1462503071871819784


----------



## daftandbarmy

Glass half full....


Money Can Make or Break Your Mental Health​The proof is in the data on suicide rates during the pandemic.​
COVID-19 has killed people’s loved ones, plunged millions into unemployment, and deprived many of human touch for months at a stretch. In many ways, the pandemic has been a “perfect storm” for suicide risk. But recent data shows people in high and middle-income countries actually killed themselves at lower rates in 2020. There’s one big reason: money.

Governments gave their citizens cash to weather the lockdowns. For many poor people, the pandemic money exceeded the regular social assistance and wages they would have otherwise earned. Poverty dropped in the U.S., and despite all the grief and isolation and anxiety, suicide rates dropped along with it. In Canada, where the emergency government payments were large and lasting, the suicide rate dropped 30 percent, according to provisional data. Altogether, suicides rates in 2020 either decreased or stayed flat in 21 high and middle-income countries (there’s very little data on the pandemic’s effect on suicide in poor countries). Cash transfers to poor people appear to have reduced suicides.

The 2020 decline in suicides is just the latest evidence that poverty drives suicide. In recent years, researchers have found that suicide rates are the highest among the poorest people. The children of people on welfare are twice as likely to die by suicide. Homeless people kill themselves about 10 times as often as people with housing.

Poor people are more vulnerable to suicide because the strain of poverty drastically increases a person’s odds of developing a mental illness. Low socioeconomic status causes roughly half of mental illnesses. People are much more likely to develop illnesses like depression, bipolar disorder, and even schizophrenia when they don’t have enough money to meet their material needs. Researchers have long found that suicide rates and psychiatric hospitalizations reliably go up in the wake of rising unemployment.

Fortunately, money fixes the same problems it causes. Unemployment rates have much less of an effect on suicide in countries with stronger financial supports for people who lose their jobs, according to a study that compared New Zealand, which made steep cuts to its welfare state amid a recession, to Finland, which didn’t. Fewer poor people died by suicide in Indonesia after the government began giving them money. Upping the minimum wage lowers suicide rates among poor people in the U.S. The conclusion is simple: Preventing people from living in poverty prevents suicides.









						The Real Reason Suicides Dropped During the Pandemic
					

It’s a method experts seem hesitant to talk about.




					slate.com


----------



## Remius

Interesting.  Takes the oxygen out of the “mental health” cost.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> You’re ok with that even though the FDA wants to bury the data on the vaccines. Got it.


Some perspective on this.









						Does FDA Want Until 2076 To Release Vaccine Data?
					

A scheduling dispute related to an FOIA request for COVID-19 vaccine data was misconstrued on social media.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Some perspective on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does FDA Want Until 2076 To Release Vaccine Data?
> 
> 
> A scheduling dispute related to an FOIA request for COVID-19 vaccine data was misconstrued on social media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com



The federal institutions continue to own goal themselves when it comes to fostering trust. Either C19 is the crisis of our generation or it isn't.  If it is, then they'd better add "haste" to their processes for keeping the public dutifully and accurately informed.  Anything less deserves immediate firing.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> The federal institutions continue to own goal themselves when it comes to fostering trust. Either C19 is the crisis of our generation or it isn't.  If it is, then they'd better add "haste" to their processes for keeping the public dutifully and accurately informed.  Anything less deserves immediate firing.


It’s likely more like a case of bureaucratic process that can’t keep up with the type of demand.  It seems like the request was somewhat and unusually large.  The other fact is that the FDA did agree to immediately release the info which is a good sign for transparency.  The process though somewhat slowed by size and ressources I would guess.  Then add the current working conditions (admittedly I am basing that on the current delays I see in our own government processes and not theirs.)

I do agree with your sentiment though. “Haste” is easier said than done though.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I wonder, if someone commits suicide while testing positive for covid, do they consider it a covid death for the count?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Fishbone Jones said:


> I wonder, if someone commits suicide while testing positive for covid, do they consider it a covid death for the count?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:


>


It's a valid question. I just researched it and in some places "COVID-19 is listed as the immediate or underlying cause of death, or listed as one of the significant conditions contributing to death. Or, if there is a confirmed COVID-19 infection from a lab test — and, the cause of death doesn't meet exclusion criteria, like trauma, suicide, homicide, overdose, motorcycle accident, etc."

It stems from a motorcycle accident, in Florida, where the driver was killed and it was initially listed as a covid death. The governor questioned it and it was corrected.

I can't speak to the rules for every jurisdiction or what a coroner considers cause of death.









						CDC director acknowledges hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths
					

U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield agreed that some hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths as they do deaths for other diseases.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				





> There appear to be cases where the opposite has happened. An investigation in Florida found that several deaths were wrongly attributed to the virus, including the case of a man who died from a gunshot wound to the head .


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's a valid question. I just researched it and in some places "COVID-19 is listed as the immediate or underlying cause of death, or listed as one of the significant conditions contributing to death. Or, if there is a confirmed COVID-19 infection from a lab test — and, the cause of death doesn't meet exclusion criteria, like trauma, suicide, homicide, overdose, motorcycle accident, etc."
> 
> It stems from a motorcycle accident, in Florida, where the driver was killed and it was initially listed as a covid death. The governor questioned it and it was corrected.
> 
> I can't speak to the rules for every jurisdiction or what a coroner considers cause of death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director acknowledges hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield agreed that some hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths as they do deaths for other diseases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com



There are international guidelines on how to classify COVID 19 related deaths. 

Stats Can has a few good documents to read through that you can add to your research.






						COVID-19 death comorbidities in Canada - ARCHIVED
					

Using the latest data from the Vital Statistics - Death Database, this article presents information about the most common comorbid conditions in COVID-19 deaths, as well as the extent to which these conditions differ by age groups. Comorbidities are defined as chronic and acute conditions...




					www150.statcan.gc.ca
				






			https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/45-28-0001/2020001/article/00087-eng.pdf?st=KkILZM1f
		


From the second link: _It is also possible that the death may have been influenced by COVID-19 but caused by another disease or an unintentional injury event. In these situations, COVID-19 should still be recorded on the medical certificates of cause of death, but would not be considered a death due to COVID-19._


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> There are international guidelines on how to classify COVID 19 related deaths.



This was in the Scientific American 13 months ago.









						Debunking the False Claim That COVID Death Counts Are Inflated
					

President Trump and other conspiracy fantasists touted the fake claim that COVID death counts are exaggerated. But three kinds of evidence point to more than 350,000 deaths*




					www.scientificamerican.com


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> I wonder, if someone commits suicide while testing positive for covid, do they consider it a covid death for the count?



I wonder if someone who commits suicide or dies in an accident any time after vaccination is considered a vaccine death?


----------



## mariomike

This shows the "significant increase" in out-of-hospital cardiac arrests during Covid.



> In this population-based, cross-sectional study, out-of-hospital cardiac arrests and deaths during the COVID-19 pandemic significantly increased compared with the same period the previous year and were associated with older age, nonwhite race/ethnicity, hypertension, diabetes, physical limitations, and nonshockable presenting rhythms. Identifying patients with the greatest risk for out-of-hospital cardiac arrest and death during the COVID-19 pandemic should allow for early, targeted interventions in the outpatient setting that could lead to reductions in out-of-hospital deaths.











						Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrests and Resuscitations During COVID-19 Pandemic
					

This cross-sectional study describes the characteristics associated with outpatient cardiac arrests and death during the coronavirus disease 2019 pandemic in New York City.




					jamanetwork.com
				




Not sure if cardiac arrest DOAs not transported to hospital by paramedics are tested by the coroner, or included in the Covid death count.


----------



## Booter

The Covid death number and what counted was always a weird one. There would be jurisdictions and places out of step- I’ve always looked at it as a good approximation. Even if we were perfect at it in hospital it still would have things missed or overlooked.

The people that dwell on it- it’s like they need a super accurate number because they have a point in their head where when it finally hits it would be a real pandemic and “not a flu” but every time it crosses a new threshold they move the goal post or “yeah but in New Jersey they counted a death that was a heart attack so…”

As if it was all scored correctly they would eventually find some social responsibility.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's a valid question. I just researched it and in some places "COVID-19 is listed as the immediate or underlying cause of death, or listed as one of the significant conditions contributing to death. Or, if there is a confirmed COVID-19 infection from a lab test — *and, the cause of death doesn't meet exclusion criteri**a, like *trauma, *suicide*, homicide, overdose, motorcycle accident, etc."
> 
> It stems from a motorcycle accident, in Florida, where the driver was killed and it was initially listed as a covid death. The governor questioned it and it was corrected.
> 
> I can't speak to the rules for every jurisdiction or what a coroner considers cause of death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director acknowledges hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths
> 
> 
> U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield agreed that some hospitals have a monetary incentive to overcount coronavirus deaths as they do deaths for other diseases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


Emphasis added


----------



## mariomike

This may help,

Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic​








						Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19)
					

Excess mortality is a term used in epidemiology and public health that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions.1 In this case, we’re interested in how the number of deaths during the COVID-19...




					ourworldindata.org
				





Booter said:


> As if it was all scored correctly they would eventually find some social responsibility.



For those in need of motivation, the vaccine hesitant ( where I used to work ) were suspended on 31 Oct. Termination date: 13 Dec.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:


> This may help,
> 
> Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19)
> 
> 
> Excess mortality is a term used in epidemiology and public health that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions.1 In this case, we’re interested in how the number of deaths during the COVID-19...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For those in need of motivation, the vaccine hesitant ( where I used to work ) were suspended on 31 Oct. Termination date: 13 Dec.


You and I have very different definitions of "motivation".


----------



## mariomike

Kat Stevens said:


> You and I have very different definitions of "motivation".



Ok. Strike that. Does not change the reality.


Booter said:


> As if it was all scored correctly they would eventually find some social responsibility.






> The vaccine hesitant ( where I used to work ) were suspended on 31 Oct. Termination date: 13 Dec.


----------



## QV

Stuff like this ruins all credibility for the media and the state.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> View attachment 67287
> 
> Stuff like this ruins all credibility for the media and the state.



Read the article.  The child died WITH COVID, not FROM it.  I can't imagine having COVID helped with his medical issues though.

A child died in Alberta recently but they had “complex pre-existing medical conditions” which played a significant role.


----------



## Scott

QV said:


> View attachment 67287
> 
> Stuff like this ruins all credibility for the media and the state.





PMedMoe said:


> Read the article.  The child died WITH COVID, not FROM it.  I can't imagine having COVID helped with his medical issues though.
> 
> A child died in Alberta recently but they had “complex pre-existing medical conditions” which played a significant role.



Whose credibility?


----------



## kkwd

Reading the headline, "Child Lost To Covid 19", appears to be inaccurate at best.


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:


> Reading the headline, "Child Lost To Covid 19", appears to be inaccurate at best.


Possibly. 

Here is the same article word for word in the Herald Sun. The headline is accurate.  Maybe an editorial choice from one paper to the next.  But if people can’t actually read properly it doesn’t always mean the media is at fault. 






						No Cookies | Herald Sun
					

No Cookies




					www.heraldsun.com.au


----------



## kkwd

Remius said:


> Possibly.
> 
> Here is the same article word for word in the Herald Sun. The headline is accurate.  Maybe an editorial choice from one paper to the next.  But if people can’t actually read properly it doesn’t always mean the media is at fault.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Cookies | Herald Sun
> 
> 
> No Cookies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldsun.com.au


No excuse, it was wrong in this particular case.


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:


> No excuse, it was wrong in this particular case.


Sure.  But it’s a poor excuse to think the media is doing anything nefarious.  Likely an editing choice to shorten the headline.  A poor attempt but not surprising.


----------



## kkwd

Remius said:


> Sure.  But it’s a poor excuse to think the media is doing anything nefarious.  Likely an editing choice to shorten the headline.  A poor attempt but not surprising.


When you put "to" in the headline your theory falls apart.


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:


> When you put "to" in the headline your theory falls apart.


And yet the same article shared by and likely the original based on the date did not say “to”.  The Tasmanian Sun picked it up and likely had to fit it in their tabloid format.  Not everything is a conspiracy lol.


----------



## kkwd

Remius said:


> And yet the same article shared by and likely the original based on the date did not say “to”.  The Tasmanian Sun picked it up and likely had to fit it in their tabloid format.  Not everything is a conspiracy lol.


Then they shouldn't have run it if they didn't have room. Conspiracy? Is everything a conspiracy these days?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> Emphasis added


which is why I posted it for clarification


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:


> Then they shouldn't have run it if they didn't have room. Conspiracy? Is everything a conspiracy these days?


For some apparently.


----------



## kkwd

Remius said:


> For some apparently.


You brought it up, there was no need in this case. It is just a simple case of journalistic errors.


----------



## Remius

kkwd said:


> It is just a simple case of journalistic errors.


Glad we agree.


----------



## Booter

The 10 year old died from a mix of things including having Covid 19. The headline is fine- it isn’t currently noteworthy to include hypertension and diabetes.

How should a news headline read- like it would literally need to be the article of the story to contain all the nuance.

Maybe there is a regional English nuance- they keep using “with”

Die “of”, Die “from”, Die “with” 

“The Bart the”


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Read the article.  The child died WITH COVID, not FROM it.  I can't imagine having COVID helped with his medical issues though.
> 
> A child died in Alberta recently but they had “complex pre-existing medical conditions” which played a significant role.



The headline implies C19 killed the child. Further down it clarifies C19 was not the reason for the hospitalization or the death. How tf can you not see the difference between the headline and the last sentence? 

What kind of crap journalism would write that? Are the standards of writing and editing that low? I don't believe that many people are collectively that stupid, which means the misleading headline can only have been on purpose.


----------



## Booter

QV said:


> The headline implies C19 killed the child. Further down it clarifies C19 was not the reason for the hospitalization or the death. How tf can you not see the difference between the headline and the last sentence?
> 
> What kind of crap journalism would write that? Are the standards of writing and editing that low? I don't believe that many people are collectively that stupid, which means the misleading headline can only have been on purpose.


Those paragraphs are talking about two different children.


----------



## kkwd

Booter said:


> Those paragraphs are talking about two different children.


All I can say is if somebody on these means wrote something like this they would be crapped on from a great height, deservedly so.


----------



## QV

Booter said:


> Those paragraphs are talking about two different children.


Oh look at that. You're right.  The article is still terribly misleading (other serious comorbidities).


----------



## QV

My constant rage in this is because of how everything is characterized. And I believe it is manipulated to an extent. 

Here is an example; take a child that has severe combined immunodeficiency (at serious risk from bacteria and virus' that aren't life threatening to healthy people). If this child dies after contracting the common cold, we don't say "child killed by common cold" because the common cold is not lethal. The child died because they had a compromised immune system. During this pandemic, it is only C19 that kills, advanced age and comorbidities including terminal brain cancer have been ignored when reporting on deaths.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> View attachment 67287
> 
> Stuff like this ruins all credibility . . .



Source?  Link?  Yes, it does ruin your credibility.

Remius did provide a link to a reputable (?) Australian daily that included the exact wording, with a 3-person byline that included the individual in your story's byline, though with a more appropriate headline.  But when he later mentioned "The Tasmanian Sun" as picking it up and changing the headline for brevity or whatever reason (clickbait, nefariousness, bad journalism), I had difficulty finding the version you provided in that publication.  Actually, I had trouble finding any news outlet called "The Tasmanian Sun".  Then I realized, duh, the "Sun" appellation was probably a generic nod to tabloids, particularly corner cutting tabloids.

So that brings me back to the question - where did this come from?  It's one thing to smear "media" as having no credibility when one can point to a source and follow the trail to nefariousness, it's another when a excerpt from another publication with only a partial byline (the original authors were all staff of the Herald Sun) is displayed with a different headline and then used as evidence of bad journalism.

It's not as if you would have to go very far to find journalistic inconsistencies with this story.  In a Republicworld.com article the headline is


> Australia Registers Youngest Death From COVID-19; Child Under 10 Dies In Victoria​



But that online news site is not Australian (it's Indian) nor does it have a particularly good reputation (known for a right wing bent, sensationalism, poor fact gathering . . . ).  Likewise, the reproduction in your post is probably a poorly altered plagiarization by anyone of the numerous "news consolidators" that can be found on the net.  Or it could just as easily be an altered plagiarization by someone who wants to use it for the same reason that you posted it here.  So it all comes back to . . . where did you find it?


----------



## Jarnhamar

When Covid hit and started ramping up there were videos of people in positions of authority, including state governors, admitting that peoples deaths were counted as covid deaths even though they died from other causes (they incidentally had Covid).


As for headlines being accidental I don't buy it. An infantry cpl being ordered to write up a story for the base news paper screwing up a headline and it slipping into production? Maybe. 

Journalists spend on average 4 years in post secondary education to learn their trade. They know how to check their work, they know how important and nuanced words can be (it's their job) and they have experienced editors. News papers used to make money selling news papers. Now they make money when people click on their articles.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Peru:

*How Peru became the country with the highest COVID death rate in the world*


With 200,000 COVID deaths in a population of less than 33 million, the impact of the pandemic in Peru has been particularly devastating: the country has the highest COVID death rate per head of population worldwide. It’s also estimated to have one of the world’s worst rates of children being orphaned or bereft of their caregivers due to COVID.

Yet, compared to many other countries, on paper Peru was relatively well-placed to handle COVID. It is an upper-middle-income country – and before COVID had been performing well economically. Life expectancy had been rising and poverty falling, and it had been making good progress on improving public health, with access to healthcare increasing.

Peru was also one of the first Latin American countries to demand that people stay at home to stop the virus spreading. Unlike in some other badly affected Latin American countries, such as Brazil or Mexico, authorities in Peru didn’t deny the threat of the pandemic.

So how has it still ended up in such a bad situation?










						How Peru became the country with the highest COVID death rate in the world
					

The country moved quickly to contain the virus, but its health system struggled to look after those who got sick.




					theconversation.com


----------



## Good2Golf

QV said:


> View attachment 67287
> 
> Stuff like this ruins all credibility for the media and the state.



Is this Mitch Ryan of the Melbourne Herald Sun tabloid?


Doesn’t quite look like a Pulitzer type to me…it was either his byline or the editor’s…


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Peru:
> 
> *How Peru became the country with the highest COVID death rate in the world*
> 
> 
> With 200,000 COVID deaths in a population of less than 33 million, the impact of the pandemic in Peru has been particularly devastating: the country has the highest COVID death rate per head of population worldwide. It’s also estimated to have one of the world’s worst rates of children being orphaned or bereft of their caregivers due to COVID.
> 
> Yet, compared to many other countries, on paper Peru was relatively well-placed to handle COVID. It is an upper-middle-income country – and before COVID had been performing well economically. Life expectancy had been rising and poverty falling, and it had been making good progress on improving public health, with access to healthcare increasing.
> 
> Peru was also one of the first Latin American countries to demand that people stay at home to stop the virus spreading. Unlike in some other badly affected Latin American countries, such as Brazil or Mexico, authorities in Peru didn’t deny the threat of the pandemic.
> 
> So how has it still ended up in such a bad situation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Peru became the country with the highest COVID death rate in the world
> 
> 
> The country moved quickly to contain the virus, but its health system struggled to look after those who got sick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theconversation.com


The use of invermectin didn’t seem to do any good…









						Latin America’s embrace of unproven COVID treatment hinders drug trials
					

Unchecked ivermectin use in region is making it difficult to test anti-parasite drug’s effectiveness against the coronavirus.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Good2Golf said:


> Is this Mitch Ryan of the Melbourne Herald Sun tabloid?
> View attachment 67292
> 
> Doesn’t quite look like a Pulitzer type to me…it was either his byline or the editor’s…


Wow, talk about your pencil neck.🙂


----------



## Booter

Jarnhamar said:


> When Covid hit and started ramping up there were videos of people in positions of authority, including state governors, admitting that peoples deaths were counted as covid deaths even though they died from other causes (they incidentally had Covid).
> 
> 
> As for headlines being accidental I don't buy it. An infantry cpl being ordered to write up a story for the base news paper screwing up a headline and it slipping into production? Maybe.
> 
> Journalists spend on average 4 years in post secondary education to learn their trade. They know how to check their work, they know how important and nuanced words can be (it's their job) and they have experienced editors. News papers used to make money selling news papers. Now they make money when people click on their articles.


You don’t buy it because you have decided not to buy it. Newspapers being garbage isn’t a new phenomenon.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:


> Its nice to see the CAF moving forward with remedial measures for non compliant members for vaccinations.



I'm fairly impressed with how the process was all put together, to be honest.  Streamlined, standardized and 'tested'.

For once I've got compliments for folks in the HHQ.


----------



## PuckChaser

If only they could do this for stuff that matters...


----------



## MJP

Eye In The Sky said:


> I'm fairly impressed with how the process was all put together, to be honest.  Streamlined, standardized and 'tested'.
> 
> For once I've got compliments for folks in the HHQ.


Agreed it was nice to see a straightforward approach.

I would love to see a more streamlined approach to lots of conduct issues, instead of having to deal with lingering to turds for months if not years


----------



## Jarnhamar

Booter said:


> Newspapers being garbage isn’t a new phenomenon.


No it's not. But they're becoming increasingly sensationalized, polarizing, and political.





Eye In The Sky said:


> I'm fairly impressed with how the process was all put together, to be honest.  Streamlined, standardized and 'tested'.
> 
> For once I've got compliments for folks in the HHQ.


I saw some goofy speed wobbles with attestation forms but all in all surprised and impressed as well. I predicted the CAF would cave and drag the process out or support any and every HR and religious claim.


----------



## Booter

Jarnhamar said:


> No it's not. But they're becoming increasingly sensationalized, polarizing, and political.


That’s a super fair characterization


----------



## Remius

Booter said:


> That’s a super fair characterization


I would argue they have always been sensationalized, polarizing and political.   This is nothing new.  So I find the outrage and claim that “they are becoming” a bit much given the history of the free press in western culture.  The free press has never been unbiased.


----------



## Booter

I think, and most of the time that’s worth very little, it’s become easier to fracture yourself along your political lines now- while the media has always had its slant- now I can only read views that are mine.

Then I am shocked and outraged at the way my views are characterized by the other side when I happen across them. 

It used to be with tv your local news was your local news, your paper was your paper. Now I can organize my information by ideology instead of geography 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> I would argue they have always been sensationalized, polarizing and political.   This is nothing new.  So I find the outrage and claim that “they are becoming” a bit much given the history of the free press in western culture.  The free press has never been unbiased.


Yea, maybe. I still think we have some hanlon's spoon going on.


----------



## MJP

Jarnhamar said:


> saw some goofy speed wobbles with attestation forms but all in all surprised and impressed as well. I predicted the CAF would cave and drag the process out or support any and every HR and religious claim.


I thought the same thing and have been impressed with the CAF concerted response


----------



## Altair

Hey, a new variant has been found and is circulating.

Already named too, the Nu variant. Seems like it might be significantly more transmitable than delta. 

Many countries banning flights from southern African countries, but it's already in Europe and Israel.

Just in time for Christmas!


----------



## Czech_pivo

Remius said:


> Possibly.
> 
> Here is the same article word for word in the Herald Sun. The headline is accurate.  Maybe an editorial choice from one paper to the next.  But if people can’t actually read properly it doesn’t always mean the media is at fault.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Cookies | Herald Sun
> 
> 
> No Cookies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldsun.com.au


Here’s a direct quote from the article that you posted - 

“The Department of Health said the child, who was one of five people who died from coronavirus across the state on Friday,”

It still clearly states that the child died from covid - it’s completely wrong and not factually correct at all.


----------



## Brad Sallows

This is the song that never ends
Yes it goes on and on my friend
Some people started singing it
Not knowing what it was
But people kept singing it just because


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> Hey, a new variant has been found and is circulating.
> 
> Already named too, the Nu variant. Seems like it might be significantly more transmitable than delta.
> 
> Many countries banning flights from southern African countries, but it's already in Europe and Israel.
> 
> Just in time for Christmas!


My understanding is that it has a larger cluster of transmissibility-related mutations that have been seen separately on other VOCs and which individually or in smaller combinations have contributed to greater ability to spread. Immune escape is still TBD.


----------



## Kilted

Fifth Wave anyone?


----------



## Altair

Kilted said:


> Fifth Wave anyone?


Unfortunately, we are not getting a travel ban with the most effected region, just testing and 14 day quarantine. 

So I expect it to fully entrench in Canada before long.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Altair said:


> Unfortunately, we are not getting a travel ban with the most effected region, just testing and 14 day quarantine.
> 
> So I expect it to fully entrench in Canada before long.











						Canada bans travellers from southern Africa as concerns mount over coronavirus variant
					

Canada will be banning the entry of all foreign nationals who have travelled through southern Africa in the last 14 days as concerns over a new coronavirus variant grow.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Canada bans travellers from southern Africa as concerns mount over coronavirus variant
> 
> 
> Canada will be banning the entry of all foreign nationals who have travelled through southern Africa in the last 14 days as concerns over a new coronavirus variant grow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


Thank goodness.


----------



## brihard

Hong Kong has a confirmed case that flew from Canada. Needless to say Canada is not a logical layover for any flight to Hong Kong from anywhere else, so it’s here already.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Hong Kong has a confirmed case that flew from Canada. Needless to say Canada is not a logical layover for any flight to Hong Kong from anywhere else, so it’s here already.


Yeah, by the time one of these variants are found its safe to assume its everywhere, at least in small numbers. 

The point is to not have more cases being brought in than necessary.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Well, Roxham Road has resumed full on operation. Anyone can stroll through there.


----------



## Kilted

Just when you thought that it was safe to go outside again. The anti-maskers/vax-ers are going to go crazy. I had to add the hyphen because my phone kept autocorrecting that word to 'cadets'.


----------



## Altair

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omicron-variant-canada-travellers-1.6265927
		




> There are two confirmed cases of the omicron variant of the coronavirus in Ottawa, the Ontario government announced Sunday.
> 
> "Today, the province of Ontario has confirmed two cases of the omicron variant of COVID-19 in Ottawa, both of which were reported in individuals with recent travel from Nigeria. Ottawa Public Health is conducting case and contact management and the patients are in isolation," the statement said.


----------



## daftandbarmy




----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Altair said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omicron-variant-canada-travellers-1.6265927


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

More like....


----------



## daftandbarmy

I thought there'd be more than that....


Failing to show proof of vaccination means unpaid leave for 432 B.C. government workers​ 
Just over one per cent B.C. government employees — 432 people — will be placed on unpaid leave after failing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 or declining to disclose their vaccination status as required. All those employed by the B.C.









						Failing to show proof of vaccination means unpaid leave for 432 B.C. government workers
					

Just over one per cent B.C. government employees — 432 people — will be placed on unpaid leave after failing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 or declining to disclose their vaccination status as required. All those employed by the B.C.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## FJAG

What the hell!



> Family in North Bay, Ont., faces harassment at children's vaccine clinic​Social Sharing​Demonstrators at a children's COVID-19 vaccine clinic in North Bay reportedly called parents 'murderers'​





> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/north-bay-childrens-vaccine-clinic-harassment-1.6266942



😣


----------



## lenaitch

FJAG said:


> What the hell!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 😣


I initially thought that the proposed legislation aimed at situation like this was unnecessary because existing legislation was sufficient, but for situations like this I'm not so sure.  Whether any new legislation would survive a Charter challenge would remain to be seen.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> Greece said on Tuesday it would make COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for people aged 60 and over in a move to quell a resurgent virus that is burdening a frail healthcare system.
> 
> Authorities said those who failed to comply from Jan. 16 would face a recurring monthly fine of 100 euros.











						Greece to make vaccinations for people over 60 mandatory, PM says
					

Greece said on Tuesday it would make COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for people aged 60 and over in a move to quell a resurgent virus that is burdening a frail healthcare system.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## kev994

OceanBonfire said:


> Greece to make vaccinations for people over 60 mandatory, PM says
> 
> 
> Greece said on Tuesday it would make COVID-19 vaccinations mandatory for people aged 60 and over in a move to quell a resurgent virus that is burdening a frail healthcare system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


That’s an interesting solution.


----------



## kkwd

kev994 said:


> That’s an interesting solution.


Yes, seems at 59 you are good to go.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Just over one per cent B.C. government employees — 432 people — will be placed on unpaid leave after failing to get vaccinated against COVID-19 or declining to disclose their vaccination status as required.​


The Toronto Police Service placed 117 officers on unpaid leave Tuesday as part of its COVID-19 vaccination policy.
That's out of more than 7,400 employees.


			Toronto Police Service :: Media Advisory #51643
		


Any unvacinated city firefighters or paramedics have been on unpaid leave since 31 Oct.

I have not heard or read any reports of increased emergency response times.

As for transit, the Ontario Superior Court denied a request from the Toronto Transit Commission's union to block the transit agency from enforcing its mandatory COVID-19 vaccination policy.
As the TTC is the third largest transit system in North America, after New York and Mexico City, this Ontario court ruling may have a ripple effect with unions across Canada.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Europe is "cracking down" on the unvaccinated. I feel the world should have done that a little while ago.









						Germany imposes curbs on unvaccinated, to make shots mandatory
					

Germany on Thursday imposed restrictions on the unvaccinated as it sought to break a dramatic surge in daily coronavirus infections exacerbated by the discovery of the Omicron strain.




					www.reuters.com
				












						U.S. steps up fight against Omicron as variant marches across globe
					

President Joe Biden on Thursday laid out his strategy to fight the coronavirus as the highly contagious Omicron spread across the globe with winter coming and hours after the first known U.S. case of community transmission of the variant was reported.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Croatia unveils heavy fines for failure to apply COVID certificates
					

Croatia's government on Thursday proposed heavy fines for heads of public institutions or municipalities who fail to enforce digital certificates for their employees or visitors designed to help curb a renewed surge of COVID-19.




					www.reuters.com
				




Something positive:









						GSK says tests indicate antibody drug works against Omicron
					

Laboratory analysis of the antibody-based COVID-19 therapy GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) is developing with U.S. partner Vir has indicated the drug is effective against the new Omicron variant, the British drugmaker said on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Jarnhamar said:


> No it's not. But they're becoming increasingly sensationalized, polarizing, and political.
> I saw some goofy speed wobbles with attestation forms but all in all surprised and impressed as well. I predicted the CAF would cave and drag the process out or support any and every HR and religious claim.


There is amendment to CDS directive 002 on CAF COVID-19 vaccination – Implementation of Accommodations and Administrative Action - Canada.ca currently signed on DWAN and I assume be published publicly soon.

They extended deadline to 18th Dec for attestations, and you are able to submit accommodation requests for both religious and human rights (CHRA) (and medical if you have a basis to requests on that ground).

They have scrapped the 30 Nov deadline for CO's decisions on accommodations to indefinite.

Why they chose to make these changes? I gather that there is a significant amount of CAF members that have not complied with policy along with some requests for accommodations. What would be the impact of releasing all these members?

Let's say 1-2% all under this category, you can argue that it is non-significant sure. But where every facet of the CAF is short staffed, what does that equate to for Full timed manned for of 60k? You would feel the hurt especially if those people where in


----------



## Jarnhamar

[





NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Let's say 1-2% all under this category, you can argue that it is non-significant sure. But where every facet of the CAF is short staffed, what does that equate to for Full timed manned for of 60k? You would feel the hurt especially if those people where in



The threat of releasing members for refusing covid vaccinations when we're so short staffed really isn't much of a threat IMO. 

CAF members who aren't vaccinated will pretty much be a write off. They won't be deployable overseas and I don't think other countries will care about about our religious or CHRA complaints. Even doctors notes. So forget about dlbeinf deployable. 
They're also going to run into constant barriers in Canada.

All the die hard vaccine refusers I've seen are either already on the way out of the CAF, angling themselves to release from the CAF, or don't want to be here and are using this as an exit.

So yes we're losing members when we're already short staffed (and losing more than we're recruiting) but I don't think it's without it's appeal.


----------



## dimsum

Jarnhamar said:


> CAF members who aren't vaccinated will pretty much be a write off. They won't be deployable overseas and I don't think other countries will care about about our religious or CHRA complaints. Even doctors notes. So forget about dlbeinf deployable.
> They're also going to run into constant barriers in Canada.


I can't wait for one to pop up on social media complaining that they're not getting the next big deployment (whenever/wherever it is), then complaining that they don't have any medals.


----------



## McG

If the federal public service and municipal transit systems can impose a vaccine standard but the CAF cannot, then we may as well stop pretending that the words "discipline" and "profession" apply to the CAF.


----------



## mariomike

McG said:


> If the federal public service and municipal transit systems can impose a vaccine standard but the CAF cannot, then we may as well stop pretending that the words "discipline" and "profession" apply to the CAF.



Firefighters and paramedics in my town who are not double-vaxxed have been on unpaid suspension since 31 Oct. . They'll be fired on 13 Dec.

Their replacements will be fully vaxxed.

I have not heard or read of any impact on response times.


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> If the federal public service and municipal transit systems can impose a vaccine standard but the CAF cannot, then we may as well stop pretending that the words "discipline" and "profession" apply to the CAF.



You forgot to add 'leadership', but I assume that was an intentional miss


----------



## Remius

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> There is amendment to CDS directive 002 on CAF COVID-19 vaccination – Implementation of Accommodations and Administrative Action - Canada.ca currently signed on DWAN and I assume be published publicly soon.
> 
> They extended deadline to 18th Dec for attestations, and you are able to submit accommodation requests for both religious and human rights (CHRA) (and medical if you have a basis to requests on that ground).
> 
> They have scrapped the 30 Nov deadline for CO's decisions on accommodations to indefinite.
> 
> Why they chose to make these changes? I gather that there is a significant amount of CAF members that have not complied with policy along with some requests for accommodations. What would be the impact of releasing all these members?
> 
> Let's say 1-2% all under this category, you can argue that it is non-significant sure. But where every facet of the CAF is short staffed, what does that equate to for Full timed manned for of 60k? You would feel the hurt especially if those people where in


This is strange.  If people have not attested and not requested accommodation they should already be on remedial measures.  Accomodation requests may be the hold up but it seems pretty cut and dry in most cases.  

Our unit had about 2% in that category.  All but one I believe were denied accommodation and it didn’t take that long. 

This may be the exception to the rule though.   But it could be that COs are seeking guidance on accommodations and that return might be taking more time.


----------



## ModlrMike

It will be interesting to see where things go with the Omicron variant. Early findings are suggesting that while it is more infectious, it causes less severe disease. This is actually a good thing. If the early data holds true, and it overtakes Delta as the dominant strain, it could be the beginning of the end.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Remius said:


> This is strange.  If people have not attested and not requested accommodation they should already be on remedial measures.  Accomodation requests may be the hold up but it seems pretty cut and dry in most cases.
> 
> Our unit had about 2% in that category.  All but one I believe were denied accommodation and it didn’t take that long.
> 
> This may be the exception to the rule though.   But it could be that COs are seeking guidance on accommodations and that return might be taking more time.


Everything is being funneled to top and all must be reviewed by the Jags to ensure consistency throughout entire CAF. There are number of approvals (via DWAN stats if you know where to look for them) that give you info in real time with number of requests/approvals. 
 I wouldn't expect a return on approval or not until late Jan.


----------



## Remius

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> Everything is being funneled to top and all must be reviewed by the Jags to ensure consistency throughout entire CAF. There are number of approvals (via DWAN stats if you know where to look for them) that give you info in real time with number of requests/approvals.
> I wouldn't expect a return on approval or not until late Jan.


Our returns came back in short order.  Members affected are on remedial measures.  I guess experiences will vary.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Delta and Omicron rearranged spell Media Control.

Dun dun dun


----------



## dapaterson

And "Forces Armees Canadiennes" rearranged spells "méconnaissance redéferas", which means "ignorance will redefine", which, come to think of it, explains a whole lot about CFLRS and CMR in St Jean sur Richelieu.


----------



## dapaterson

Royal Canadian Regiment rearranged spells "Argentinean myocardial"

Warrant Officer rearranged spells "Careworn tariff"

Major General rearranged spells "logjam nearer"


----------



## dimsum

dapaterson said:


> Royal Canadian Regiment rearranged spells "Argentinean myocardial"
> 
> Warrant Officer rearranged spells "Careworn tariff"
> 
> Major General rearranged spells "logjam nearer"


I've always hated people who could decipher and make anagrams off the top of their head.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Jarnhamar said:


> [
> 
> The threat of releasing members for refusing covid vaccinations when we're so short staffed really isn't much of a threat IMO.
> 
> CAF members who aren't vaccinated will pretty much be a write off. They won't be deployable overseas and I don't think other countries will care about about our religious or CHRA complaints. Even doctors notes. So forget about dlbeinf deployable.
> They're also going to run into constant barriers in Canada.
> 
> All the die hard vaccine refusers I've seen are either already on the way out of the CAF, angling themselves to release from the CAF, or don't want to be here and are using this as an exit.
> 
> So yes we're losing members when we're already short staffed (and losing more than we're recruiting) but I don't think it's without it's appeal.


These measures are temporary so can't be released because of universality of service.
If it was such a write off, then why is the CDS making the deadline for attestation from 15 Nov to 18 Dec? And the deadline for approvals from 30 Nov to indefinite? Is it possible they are getting the people who didn't attest/ unvaccinated a way to stay in? 
You are going to lose good people over this, and many people felt compelled and scared to comply.


----------



## dapaterson

dimsum said:


> I've always hated people who could decipher and make anagrams off the top of their head.



Totally didn't use an online generator for that.  No siree.


----------



## kev994

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> They have scrapped the 30 Nov deadline for CO's decisions on accommodations to indefinite.


It’s been taking longer than expected to get guidance on certain cases.


NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> These measures are temporary so can't be released because of universality of service.
> If it was such a write off, then why is the CDS making the deadline for attestation from 15 Nov to 18 Dec? And the deadline for approvals from 30 Nov to indefinite? Is it possible they are getting the people who didn't attest/ unvaccinated a way to stay in?
> You are going to lose good people over this, and many people felt compelled and scared to comply.


There’s already a way to keep people, the beginning of the CDS directive from day one says that exemptions can be requested for urgent operational requirements.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> There is amendment to CDS directive 002 on CAF COVID-19 vaccination – Implementation of Accommodations and Administrative Action - Canada.ca currently signed on DWAN and I assume be published publicly soon.
> 
> They extended deadline to 18th Dec for attestations, and you are able to submit accommodation requests for both religious and human rights (CHRA) (and medical if you have a basis to requests on that ground).
> 
> They have scrapped the 30 Nov deadline for CO's decisions on accommodations to indefinite.
> 
> Why they chose to make these changes? I gather that there is a significant amount of CAF members that have not complied with policy along with some requests for accommodations. What would be the impact of releasing all these members?
> 
> Let's say 1-2% all under this category, you can argue that it is non-significant sure. But where every facet of the CAF is short staffed, what does that equate to for Full timed manned for of 60k? You would feel the hurt especially if those people where in



Admin law requires certain processes to ensure procedural fairness.  This is well-entrenched in Canadian law and the CAF abides by it;  this includes those requesting accommodations.   Right to know the decision, full disclosure on all info used to arrive at said decision, right to make representations, etc.

If the requests aren't able to be processed IAW with the initial timelines, the correct COA (for more than a single reason) is to adjust/amend the original direction.

This isn't new to the CAF;  we do estimates and plans all the time on "what we know" and then change it later with "what we know now".


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Remius said:


> This is strange.  If people have not attested and not requested accommodation they should already be on remedial measures.  Accomodation requests may be the hold up but it seems pretty cut and dry in most cases.
> 
> Our unit had about 2% in that category.  All but one I believe were denied accommodation and it didn’t take that long.
> 
> This may be the exception to the rule though.   But it could be that COs are seeking guidance on accommodations and that return might be taking more time.



I know there's some cases of people being away from the unit lines/no access to MonMass and attestations were unable to be completed.  Medical leave comes to mind (at least 1 case that I know of personally).

Attestation refusals, refusal to vaccinate are treated, or should be treated, differently than accommodation requests that are processing;  no admin action should take place, work considerations should be taken by CofC and regular, recorded testing is supposed to be happening.  I've gone to pick up testing kits once to date for mbr's who are waiting accn decisions and I know those with pending decisions are facing no admin actions at this time.


----------



## Jarnhamar

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> These measures are temporary so can't be released because of universality of service.
> If it was such a write off, then why is the CDS making the deadline for attestation from 15 Nov to 18 Dec?



Why would we keep members who made themselves non-deployable abroad for training or operations? 



> You are going to lose good people over this, and many people felt compelled and scared to comply.


Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:


> Why would we keep members who made themselves non-deployable abroad for training or operations?
> 
> 
> Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping.



Question for discussion;  the CAF accommodates some people medically for up to 3 years "if there is a need for them in their trade and they can be employed" (my words).  I know a few flyers who went A7 PCAT but were retained for 3 years.  No flying, no deploying...

So...what's the difference with this?  Question came up in a convo at work...I didn't really have a good reply.

Where I am currently posted, some people are towards the end of the mil careers, have amassed some significant flying experience and are not likely going to deploy again.  Decades of flying, fleet and corporate knowledge.  Is the CAF really focusing on the steak, and not the peas, in these cases?

Curious as to what people think....


----------



## dapaterson

Does the other form of accommodation create unreasonable risk to others?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

That "unreasonable risk" existed, was accepted by the CAF since Day 1 of the pandemic until the Magic Day (when vaccination was considered mandatory).  Example, I received my 2nd shot on 11 Jun.   I _may have_ worked with mbr's who did not get vaccinated, or tested 3 x a week, from that day until say, 15 Nov, or 30 Nov, with no extra precautions.  Did the CAF put me at unreasonable risk by allowing unvaccinated people to share my workspace, because nothing has changed medically...just "policy" changes.

* just to be clear, I am not in support of those refusing to comply, but I am willing to look at all sides of the subj.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:


> Question for discussion;  the CAF accommodates some people medically for up to 3 years "if there is a need for them in their trade and they can be employed" (my words).  I know a few flyers who went A7 PCAT but were retained for 3 years.  No flying, no deploying...
> 
> So...what's the difference with this?  Question came up in a convo at work...I didn't really have a good reply.


That sounds like a period of retention for members who are given a release message but can be advantageously employed within their trade. At any time the unit CO can say it's not working out and the member has 6 months to release. Having their POR canceled to make room for someone else who can deploy happens as well.

The difference I'd say is that medical releases are beyond a members control where as refusing a vaccination isn't. I see the fine line you're talking about but you could also go the other way. If a member refuses to deploy because they might die, or even do a task that's dangerous, why not still keep them on for another 3 years because we're hurting for numbers?


----------



## brihard

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> You are going to lose good people over this


Not many. Mostly CAF will lose people who, through their own choices, have rendered themselves a burden on the business of defending our country, for a number of solid reasons articulated here by others.


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Eye In The Sky said:


> Question for discussion;  the CAF accommodates some people medically for up to 3 years "if there is a need for them in their trade and they can be employed" (my words).  I know a few flyers who went A7 PCAT but were retained for 3 years.  No flying, no deploying...
> 
> So...what's the difference with this?  Question came up in a convo at work...I didn't really have a good reply.
> 
> Where I am currently posted, some people are towards the end of the mil careers, have amassed some significant flying experience and are not likely going to deploy again.  Decades of flying, fleet and corporate knowledge.  Is the CAF really focusing on the steak, and not the peas, in these cases?
> 
> Curious as to what people think....


This is a temporary measure. You could make the same case for pregnancy "Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping".

What is the unreasonable risk if all accommodated members are testing 3 times a week? The risk is mitigated at that point, and they aren't allowed to attend non-work events right now.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jarnhamar said:


> The difference I'd say is that medical releases are beyond a members control where as refusing a vaccination isn't.



That's the big piece of the puzzle, isn't it?



Jarnhamar said:


> I see the fine line you're talking about but you could also go the other way. If a member refuses to deploy because they might die, or even do a task that's dangerous, why not still keep them on for another 3 years because we're hurting for numbers?



Tracking...'starting down the slippery slope'...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> This is a temporary measure. You could make the same case for pregnancy "Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping".
> 
> What is the unreasonable risk if all accommodated members are testing 3 times a week? The risk is mitigated at that point, and they aren't allowed to attend non-work events right now.



As it was said at a few higher level meeting I've been at recently;  "the unvaccinated mbr is the one actually at risk, not the vaccinated ones".

So the risk is medical, or "obedience"?


----------



## NotSoWiseKingSolomon

Eye In The Sky said:


> As it was said at a few higher level meeting I've been at recently;  "the unvaccinated mbr is the one actually at risk, not the vaccinated ones".
> 
> So the risk is medical, or "obedience"?


It's about obedience. 
Look at the GoC policy, why do workers who work full time at home have to be vaccinated to work at home?
It is no longer about health and safety at that point, it's driving a point home.  If they can get enough people to comply, then there is no neeed to comprimise.









						Vaccines won't be mandatory for existing Quebec health-care workers, only new hires
					

In an about-face, facing a drastic service reduction, Quebec has decided that health-care workers already employed won't be forced to get a COVID-19 vaccine, said the health minister Wednesday.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca
				



Quebec nurses currently employed in what most people would say are a "high-risk" environment do not have to be vaccinated while the code monkey at home has to be. Enough non-compliance affecting service levels reason for compromise.


----------



## kev994

Eye In The Sky said:


> As it was said at a few higher level meeting I've been at recently;  "the unvaccinated mbr is the one actually at risk, not the vaccinated ones".
> 
> So the risk is medical, or "obedience"?


I’m aware of someone who’s received 3 vaccinations but developed no anti-bodies. So they’re at greater risk due to the choices of others. Some of those others have legitimate reasons why they can’t be vaccinated and that’s fair, but some of them just read too much crap on Facebook.


----------



## QV

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> This is a temporary measure. You could make the same case for pregnancy "Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping".
> 
> What is the unreasonable risk if all accommodated members are testing 3 times a week? The risk is mitigated at that point, and they aren't allowed to attend non-work events right now.


We’re so far down this rabbit hole that we don‘t think the vaccine sufficiently protects us and natural immunity is a myth.


----------



## mariomike

McG said:


> If the federal public service and municipal transit systems can impose a vaccine standard but the CAF cannot, then we may as well stop pretending that the words "discipline" and "profession" apply to the CAF.



The Ontario Supreme Court denied the union's request for an injunction back on Nov. 20.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/atu-injunction-ttc-mandatory-covid-19-vaccination-policy-1.6257025
		


Those not fully vacinated have been on unpaid suspension since Nov. 20, and will be fired on 31 Dec.


----------



## QV

kev994 said:


> I’m aware of someone who’s received 3 vaccinations but developed no anti-bodies. So they’re at greater risk due to the choices of others. Some of those others have legitimate reasons why they can’t be vaccinated and that’s fair, but some of them just read too much crap on Facebook.


That person should take precautions due to their weakened state. Everyone else should be left alone.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

kev994 said:


> I’m aware of someone who’s received 3 vaccinations but developed no anti-bodies. So they’re at greater risk due to the choices of others. Some of those others have legitimate reasons why they can’t be vaccinated and that’s fair, but some of them just read too much crap on Facebook.



Just curious...how do they know they did not develop them?  Genuinely curious...I've never heard of this before.


----------



## kev994

Eye In The Sky said:


> Just curious...how do they know they did not develop them?  Genuinely curious...I've never heard of this before.


I’m not entirely sure but from what I gather there were some blood samples taken, presumably because they’re already compromised and the doc expected there to be issues with the uptake.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The natives are restless....


*COVID-19 on the Global Peace Index 2021*​The emergence of a global pandemic impacted violence significantly. While violent conflicts improved, the number of violent demonstrations increased substantially – a total of more than 5,000 Covid-19 related violent events occurred this past year.

Pandemic-related violent incidents occurred in 158 countries around the world.

*This increase in COVID-19 related violent incidents, caused by violent demonstrations and riots, was fuelled by various changes:*

The imposed COVID-19 restrictions
Anti-government sentiments
Lockdowns
Increasing unemployment rate
Lack of economic support
Additionally, the pandemic caused an increase in racially charged assaults against people of Asian descent.

The report records that in Australia, 85% of Asian-Australians experienced pandemic-related discrimination during 2020. In addition, Vancouver witnessed a stunning 717% increase in hate crime during the pandemic.

Besides the political instability and civil unrest stemming from the pandemic, there was also an increase in interpersonal violence, domestic violence, and feelings of safety experienced a significant impact.

Furthermore, the report found that social isolation and financial stress most likely have had an impact on the homicide rate, but exact data remains tentative.

COVID-19 has led to uncertainty and radical changes in our everyday lives. While the report conveys the still limited knowledge of the full impact of the pandemic, it asserts that the uncertain economic conditions “increases the likelihood of political instability and violent demonstrations.”

















						The Global Peace Index 2021 Reveals a Year of Civil Unrest
					

During a seemingly never-ending pandemic, a new trend emerged on the Global Peace Index 2021: a large increase in civil unrest and political instability.




					www.visionofhumanity.org


----------



## suffolkowner

kev994 said:


> I’m not entirely sure but from what I gather there were some blood samples taken, presumably because they’re already compromised and the doc expected there to be issues with the uptake.


Yes you can get tested for circulating antibodies. More than a few members of my family have had this done fairly regularly due to autoimmune disorders, although in our case its mostly due to overactive/aggresive immune response that requires dampening down and thus the necessity of having "enough" antibodies in case the immune system gets dampened down to much and you get infected


----------



## kev994

daftandbarmy said:


> The natives are restless....
> 
> 
> *COVID-19 on the Global Peace Index 2021*​The emergence of a global pandemic impacted violence significantly. While violent conflicts improved, the number of violent demonstrations increased substantially – a total of more than 5,000 Covid-19 related violent events occurred this past year.
> 
> Pandemic-related violent incidents occurred in 158 countries around the world.
> 
> *This increase in COVID-19 related violent incidents, caused by violent demonstrations and riots, was fuelled by various changes:*
> 
> The imposed COVID-19 restrictions
> Anti-government sentiments
> Lockdowns
> Increasing unemployment rate
> Lack of economic support
> Additionally, the pandemic caused an increase in racially charged assaults against people of Asian descent.
> 
> The report records that in Australia, 85% of Asian-Australians experienced pandemic-related discrimination during 2020. In addition, Vancouver witnessed a stunning 717% increase in hate crime during the pandemic.
> 
> Besides the political instability and civil unrest stemming from the pandemic, there was also an increase in interpersonal violence, domestic violence, and feelings of safety experienced a significant impact.
> 
> Furthermore, the report found that social isolation and financial stress most likely have had an impact on the homicide rate, but exact data remains tentative.
> 
> COVID-19 has led to uncertainty and radical changes in our everyday lives. While the report conveys the still limited knowledge of the full impact of the pandemic, it asserts that the uncertain economic conditions “increases the likelihood of political instability and violent demonstrations.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Global Peace Index 2021 Reveals a Year of Civil Unrest
> 
> 
> During a seemingly never-ending pandemic, a new trend emerged on the Global Peace Index 2021: a large increase in civil unrest and political instability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.visionofhumanity.org


Sounds like a giant mental health problem. How do I invest in that? Prozac? I missed Pfizer…


----------



## daftandbarmy

kev994 said:


> Sounds like a giant mental health problem. How do I invest in that? Prozac? I missed Pfizer…



Pffffffffttt... 

My money's on Tear Gas 


Maker of tear gas used on D.C. protesters gets millions from federal government​Safariland, the controversial maker of the tear gas used to clear protesters near the White House last week, and two of its distributors have generated more than $137 million in sales from the U.S. government in the past three and a half years, according to a CBS MoneyWatch review of federal spending data.

The sales, up from $83 million in the prior three-and-a-half-year period, do not include money spent by local law-enforcement agencies on Safariland tear gas. There have been multiple reports of tear gas used on protesters in Minneapolis, where George Floyd died in police custody last month, and elsewhere in recent weeks as protests against police racism spread across the country.









						Maker of tear gas used on D.C. protesters gets millions from federal government
					

Safariland's sales have spiked, but the company, its investors and its CEO have faced criticism in recent years.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Remius

NotSoWiseKingSolomon said:


> This is a temporary measure. You could make the same case for pregnancy "Good people who won't be able to travel to train or do ops so they hang out in Canada and someone else picks up their slack. I'm not sold on them being worth keeping".
> 
> What is the unreasonable risk if all accommodated members are testing 3 times a week? The risk is mitigated at that point, and they aren't allowed to attend non-work events right now.


Not disagreeing with you in principle.  I have no issues with a hybrid rapid testing/vaccination model.  

At the end of the day, people are being put on remedial measures for failing to follow lawful authority,  that’s it.  And the CDS is expediting the process.


----------



## Remius

Eye In The Sky said:


> I know there's some cases of people being away from the unit lines/no access to MonMass and attestations were unable to be completed.  Medical leave comes to mind (at least 1 case that I know of personally).
> 
> Attestation refusals, refusal to vaccinate are treated, or should be treated, differently than accommodation requests that are processing;  no admin action should take place, work considerations should be taken by CofC and regular, recorded testing is supposed to be happening.  I've gone to pick up testing kits once to date for mbr's who are waiting accn decisions and I know those with pending decisions are facing no admin actions at this time.


That’s accounted for in the directive and subsequent frag O.  Leave, etc.  

Everybody here were issued a recorded warning after their accommodation request was denied,  not before.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> I have no issues with a hybrid rapid testing/vaccination model.


For Canadians in general or members of the armed forces?


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> For Canadians in general or members of the armed forces?


In general.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> That’s accounted for in the directive and subsequent frag O.  Leave, etc.
> 
> Everybody here were issued a recorded warning after their accommodation request was denied,  not before.


I would hope that between the refusal of their accommodation and the issuance of the RW they were given an opportunity to make a newly informed decision, and that it wasn’t “Hey, come on in. First, your accommodation was denied, and second, here’s your RW.”


----------



## Eye In The Sky

There is a 24 hour period between mbr being briefed on notice of intent to place on RMs and RMs being issued (for IC and RW); well, there _should_ be.  Screenshot of 6.4 of the DAOD attached.

There's really 2 issues being dealt with;  refusal to attest on MonMass, and refusal to vaccinate.  I'm aware of some files where mbr's are vaccinated but won't do the MonMass attestation.

6.5 of the applic DAOD details the requirements for C & P;  additional requirements as jeopardy to the mbr increases.


----------



## brihard

Well the attestation is much easier. “Cpl Bloggins, sit down at this computer. You are ordered to complete a truthful attestation of your COVID vaccination status on Monitor MASS.”

If Bloggins refuses the order, charge with same, and meanwhile proceed with the remedial measures process to cover the administrative side.


----------



## Remius

The DAODs, CDS direction and Army Frag O are all very clear on what has to happen and how.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I wonder if there is a real need for a separate C Army Frag O;  in situations like these, I often wonder if the additional layers help or hinder.


----------



## dapaterson

If you stop every layer of the Army from inflicting their own mostly cut and paste version of direction from higher, you'd be the one responsible for uniform, more timely approaches and reduced staff officer requirements.

Do you really want that on your conscience?


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> If you stop every layer of the Army from inflicting their own mostly cut and paste version of direction from higher, you'd be the one responsible for uniform, more timely approaches and reduced staff officer requirements.
> 
> Do you really want that on your conscience?



I always enjoyed being handed a 40-50 page document at the start of the training year, or maybe a month or so into the training year, which contained everything up to and including CDS direction, and being told to get on with it.

It saves so much time for LCols with better things to do like, you know, planning for their exalted leadership of the National Kilted Regiments' Conference.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh, what a surprise:


Public Health Agency of Canada failed to keep tabs on most quarantine hotel stays, says AG​New audit says PHAC only had records to verify hotel stays for about a quarter of air travellers​
Auditor General Karen Hogan tabled four reports this afternoon in the House of Commons looking at COVID-19 measures. One of the reports examines enforcement of quarantine hotel stays and testing requirements from July 1, 2020 to the end of June 2021.

At the start of the year — in addition to the already required 14-day quarantine period — the government introduced new rules for incoming travellers meant to limit the spread of COVID-19 and its variants.

Travellers crossing by both land and air were required to show a negative COVID-19 test no more than 72 hours before their scheduled flights to Canada.

Air and land travellers were also required to undergo both on-arrival and post-arrival COVID-19 tests. In addition, incoming air travellers were required to pre-book and pre-pay for a three-day stay at a government-authorized hotel, where they were to remain in quarantine while waiting for their on-arrival test results.

Hogan's audit found that the Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) didn't have an automated system to track whether travellers ordered to quarantine at authorized hotels actually did so.

It discovered PHAC only had records to verify hotel stays for about a quarter of air travellers for the February to June 2021 period.

"Because the agency did not have records of stay for 75 per cent of travellers who flew into Canada, it did not know whether those who were required to quarantine at government authorized hotels had complied," said Hogan.

"In addition, the agency did not reliably track whether air travellers who had been notified of positive COVID-19 tests had stayed at a government-authorized hotel as required."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/quarantine-hotel-tracking-phac-audit-1.6279176


----------



## Good2Golf

Would those be the ones who were sexually harassed/assaulted at the Government-assigned hotels?

Public safety minister grilled over quarantine hotel security after alleged assaults


> OTTAWA -- Public Safety Minister Bill Blair faced harsh questions Wednesday over security related to the federal quarantine program after reports of two incidents of alleged sexual assault.
> 
> At a parliamentary committee hearing, Conservative MP Shannon Stubbs grilled Blair over safeguards for guests at federally approved quarantine hotels.
> 
> She also questioned him about background checks for screening officers who work at the hotels and conduct compliance checks at homes of Canadians quarantined due to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> *Newsletter sign-up: Get The COVID-19 Brief sent to your inbox*
> *Capital Dispatch: Stay up to date on the latest news from Parliament Hill*
> Blair told the committee that quarantine measures have been effective and that any allegations should be thoroughly investigated.
> 
> He diverted questions on the hotel quarantine program to the Public Health Agency of Canada that oversees it, saying he has no jurisdiction over the file and that Stubbs is "simply misinformed" on his role.
> 
> "Thank you for the condescension," Stubbs replied.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

dapaterson said:


> If you stop every layer of the Army from inflicting their own mostly cut and paste version of direction from higher, you'd be the one responsible for uniform, more timely approaches and reduced staff officer requirements.
> 
> Do you really want that on your conscience?



THAT was a great thing to read after mashing keyboards for an extra 2-3 hours on 'stuff' at the Sqn before being set free...


----------



## daftandbarmy

What the frack?

As Manitoba ICUs reach critical capacity, doctors call for military aid, crackdown on order violators​​
Manitoba intensive care units are severely short on space, prompting a group of doctors to issue a plea for the military to be called in and stronger enforcement of public health restrictions.

 Multiple hospital sources told CBC that the province's ICUs are struggling under huge pressure, with the ICU beds at Winnipeg's Health Sciences Centre, St. Boniface Hospital and Grace Hospital as well as those in Brandon nearly full this weekend. 

The sources say several cardiac surgeries were cancelled Friday and the recovery room at St. Boniface Hospital was closed over the weekend so that nurses could be redeployed to ICU.

"I think there's very little question that they're going to have to start sending patients out of province on ventilators yet again," said Dr. Dan Roberts, a critical care doctor at Health Sciences Centre.

Roberts, who penned a letter to the province signed by nine other doctors in the province, says ICU capacity cannot be expanded.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-icu-capacity-manitoba-1.6283239


----------



## kev994

daftandbarmy said:


> What the frack?
> 
> As Manitoba ICUs reach critical capacity, doctors call for military aid, crackdown on order violators​​
> Manitoba intensive care units are severely short on space, prompting a group of doctors to issue a plea for the military to be called in and stronger enforcement of public health restrictions.
> 
> Multiple hospital sources told CBC that the province's ICUs are struggling under huge pressure, with the ICU beds at Winnipeg's Health Sciences Centre, St. Boniface Hospital and Grace Hospital as well as those in Brandon nearly full this weekend.
> 
> The sources say several cardiac surgeries were cancelled Friday and the recovery room at St. Boniface Hospital was closed over the weekend so that nurses could be redeployed to ICU.
> 
> "I think there's very little question that they're going to have to start sending patients out of province on ventilators yet again," said Dr. Dan Roberts, a critical care doctor at Health Sciences Centre.
> 
> Roberts, who penned a letter to the province signed by nine other doctors in the province, says ICU capacity cannot be expanded.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-icu-capacity-manitoba-1.6283239


They’ve had issues getting a reasonable vaccination rate in the Southern health region; off the top of my head I think I read yesterday that it was around 57%.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the Anglosphere ....


> A man was vaccinated against Covid-19 up to 10 times in one day on behalf of other people, prompting an investigation by the Ministry of Health.
> 
> It is believed the man, who is understood to have visited several vaccination centres, was paid for the jabs.
> 
> In response to questions from _Stuff, _Astrid Koornneef, the Ministry of Health’s Covid-19 vaccine and immunisation programme group manager, said the ministry was “aware of the issue” ...


... and in Italy


> A 50-year-old man tried to pass off a silicone arm as his own at a COVID-19 vaccination clinic in northern Italy in an attempt to get a vaccine certification without actually getting vaccinated.
> 
> The nurse, Filippa Bua, realized noticed something odd about the arm.
> 
> “The color of the skin was anomalous, much lighter compared to the hands or the face of the patient,” she told CNN.
> 
> After inspecting the area, she realized it was a fake silicone arm ...


----------



## winds_13

Well, it appears that large outbreaks are becoming more common in workplaces that have a 100% vaccination rate, having already laid off their unvaccinated staff for posing undue risk to the workplace.









						Toronto Police Service dealing with COVID-19 outbreaks among vaccinated cops
					

First Toronto Fire Services stations were hit with COVID-19 amongst vaccinated staff, now Toronto Police has been stung.




					torontosun.com
				












						WARMINGTON: COVID cases spread like wildfire in Toronto Fire station
					

This spreading wildfire needing to be put out was raging inside the fire station itself.




					torontosun.com
				




And from a different news agency... of note, CTV News makes no mention that the outbreaks are entirely amongst fully vaccinated staff. I guess they didn't consider that facet to be news worthy. However, they do specify that one of the outbreaks currently involves 32 positive cases, which the Sun did not.









						Two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto police facilities
					

There are currently two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto Police facilities, one of which involves at least 32 positive cases.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Well, it appears that large outbreaks are becoming more common in workplaces that have a 100% vaccination rate, having already laid off their unvaccinated staff for posing undue risk to the workplace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto Police Service dealing with COVID-19 outbreaks among vaccinated cops
> 
> 
> First Toronto Fire Services stations were hit with COVID-19 amongst vaccinated staff, now Toronto Police has been stung.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WARMINGTON: COVID cases spread like wildfire in Toronto Fire station
> 
> 
> This spreading wildfire needing to be put out was raging inside the fire station itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And from a different news agency... of note, CTV News makes no mention that the outbreaks are entirely amongst fully vaccinated staff. I guess they didn't consider that facet to be news worthy. However, they do specify that one of the outbreaks currently involves 32 positive cases, which the Sun did not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto police facilities
> 
> 
> There are currently two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto Police facilities, one of which involves at least 32 positive cases.
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca



Regarding the stories you posted about Toronto emergency services.

I don't think I have read a defintion of anti-vaxxer in any of our Covid discussions, so I looked it up in the dictionary,
Definition of _anti-vaxxer_​*: *a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination








						Definition of ANTI-VAXXER
					

a person who opposes the use of some or all vaccines, regulations mandating vaccination, or usually both; often, specifically : a parent who opposes having his or her child vaccinated —often used before another noun… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com
				




Any vaccine hesitant paramedics and firefighters have been suspended since October 31.

The deadline for dismissal was extended from today - Dec. 13 -  to Jan. 3, 2022.
However, the extension only applies to members who have already had their first dose, and can provide proof of an appointment to receive their second shot before 3 Jan.

I have not read of any increase in 9-1-1 response times in the city since 31 Oct.

I think most people with a background in emergency services understand the city mandate.



lenaitch said:


> So he gets infected - from whatever source - and takes his whole crew out of service.  How is that public safety?  Perhaps a relatively healthy person could survive being medically treated by an infected firefighter or paramedic, but could a medically compromised one?  The employer (city) owns the liability.


----------



## Brad Sallows

100% vaccinated is -resistant, not -proof.  Original effectiveness estimates were in range 50-90%, and effectiveness does not indefinitely remain at highest level.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike, I am certainly pro-vaccine, but to say that anyone who opposes a vaccine mandates is an "anti-vaxxer" seems like quite a stretch. Merriam-Webster has made modifications to their definitions of both "vaccine" and "anti-vaxxer" since the start of the pandemic, making each more broad in scope... BTW, this is the dictionary that added words like "amirite" , "vacay", and "fabulosity" in recent years.

If I type "definition of anti-vaxxer" into a Google search, it provides the definition from the Oxford dictionary (it is not just the first hit, it is the dictionary endorsed by Google):

_"a person who is opposed to vaccination, typically a parent who does not wish to vaccinate their child."_






						anti-vaxxer noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com
					

Definition of anti-vaxxer noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.




					www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com
				




Perhaps you use a different search engine than most of us, or decided to scroll through definitions until you found one that fits your personal opinion? Do you consider someone that is pro-vaccine but anti-mandate to be an anti-vaxxer? Does this make the Pope an anti-vaxxer because although he has recommended his followers to get vaccinated, referring to it as an "act of love", he has also stated that "vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary".






						Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines (21 December 2020)
					

Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines, 21 December 2020



					www.vatican.va
				




Is there a reasonable limit to this universal support for mandates and their enforcement? Most of our country has already determined that collective well-being trumps charter protected human rights, regardless of the risk posed (ie. whether the person works 100% remotely or not). There are countries that are making it illegal to be unvaccinated, what is the appropriate limit on enforcement... fines, imprisonment, capitol punishment? Most Canadians never get the annual flu shot, does that make them an anti-vaxxer? If the government extends their COVID-19 mandate to include annual flu shots, with imprisonment as the means of enforcement, would you support this? If not, are you an anti-vaxxer?

I posted the articles about outbreaks amongst fully vaccinated workforces to highlight the risk that fully vaccinated individuals continue to pose for spread of COVID-19, highlighting the need to maintain masking, distancing, and other preventive measures. The Public Health Agency of Canada recently updated its guidelines on mask wearing, in recognition that airborne virus transmission is much more prevalent than previously thought (Dr.Tam compared it to the spread of second-hand smoke). Have these workplaces with hardline vaccine mandates started procuring ventilators for their staff, particular for those that interact with the public, including those particularly vulnerable to severe outcomes from the virus?



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-mask-guidance-1.6261032


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Merriam-Webster has made modifications to their definitions of both "vaccine" and "anti-vaxxer" since the start of the pandemic, making each more broad in scope...



No, Merriam-Webster didn’t change the definition of ‘anti-vaxxer’​
Peter Sokolowski, editor at large of Merriam-Webster.com, said that the entry for “anti-vaxxer” was first added to the online dictionary in February 2018 and hasn’t been revised or changed since. It has always defined it as “a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination.”

Archived web pages show that the definition has been consistent since 2018. 









						PolitiFact - No, Merriam-Webster didn’t change the definition of ‘anti-vaxxer’
					

Merriam-Webster defines the word "anti-vaxxer" as "a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination." O




					www.politifact.com


----------



## winds_13

mariomike, the definition provided in the article you just posted, *"a person who opposes vaccination or laws that mandate vaccination"* is not even the same as the definition that you previously provided, *"a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccinations"*. I stated that Merriam-Webster had modified their definition to be more broad, it did this mainly by replacing "laws" with "regulations". The definition has changed since May, 2021 when the article that you posted was written.









						Fact Check: Has Merriam-Webster’s Definition Of "Anti-Vaxxer" And "Vaccine" Changed?
					

Fact Check: Has Merriam-Webster’s Definition Of "Anti-Vaxxer" And "Vaccine" Changed?




					www.iflscience.com


----------



## kev994

Brad Sallows said:


> 100% vaccinated is -resistant, not -proof.  Original effectiveness estimates were in range 50-90%, and effectiveness does not indefinitely remain at highest level.


This second point about efficacy reducing over time kinda puts this in perspective; emergency services were among the first to get jabbed so they ought to be the first to show the effects of decreasing efficacy.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> winds_13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the government extends their COVID-19 mandate to include annual flu shots, with imprisonment as the means of enforcement, would you support this?
Click to expand...

Wind, you posted three stories about Toronto emergency services. Two were from Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun. That is all I commented on.

Annual flu shots? Sure, I know about that. Ontario provincial regulation required paramedics to get annual flu shots or give up their jobs.
The law, an amendment to the Ontario Ambulance Act, took effect in fall 2000.

So, I got the flu shot.




winds_13 said:


> Fact Check: Has Merriam-Webster’s Definition Of "Anti-Vaxxer" And "Vaccine" Changed?
> 
> 
> Fact Check: Has Merriam-Webster’s Definition Of "Anti-Vaxxer" And "Vaccine" Changed?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iflscience.com



I guess this can go back and forth all day.

December 8, 2021

The Associated Press









						Merriam-Webster’s update to “anti-vaxxer” misrepresented online
					

CLAIM: Merriam-Webster changed the definition of anti-vaxxer to now include those who oppose “regulations mandating vaccination.” AP’S ASSESSMENT: Missing Context.




					apnews.com
				






> CLAIM: Merriam-Webster changed the definition of anti-vaxxer to now include those who oppose “regulations mandating vaccination.”





> AP’S ASSESSMENT: Missing Context. Merriam-Webster’s anti-vaxxer listing already included language similar to the clause being cited online, but the wording was changed to “regulations” rather than “laws.”





> THE FACTS: Posts circulating widely on social media claim Merriam-Webster changed the definition of “anti-vaxxer” to include those who oppose “regulations mandating vaccination.” But the posts don’t explain that the previous entry used a similar definition.





> This is part of AP’s effort to address widely shared misinformation, including work with outside companies and organizations to add factual context to misleading content that is circulating online.


----------



## brihard

kev994 said:


> This second point about efficacy reducing over time kinda puts this in perspective; emergency services were among the first to get jabbed so they ought to be the first to show the effects of decreasing efficacy.


Yup. I’m already pst six months but not quite yet eligible for a booster.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike, I posted recent articles about significant outbreaks in Canadian workplaces after they had enforced hardline vaccine mandates. That they were Toronto emergency services wasn't specifically relevant to my particular point, rather it was on the perceived effectiveness of the vaccine several months after vaccination. I provided 2 different news sources for the same story to highlight the difference in reporting by different news outlets. Are you claiming that anything reported by Joe Warmington of the Toronto Sun was innaccurate or misrepresented?



mariomike said:


> Regarding the stories you posted about Toronto emergency services.
> 
> I don't think I have read a defintion of anti-vaxxer in any of our Covid discussions, so I looked it up in the dictionary,
> Definition of _anti-vaxxer_​*: *a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination



You responded to my post by providing a non-universally excepted definition of "anti-vaxxer", from Merriam-Webster. I responded by questioning the definition and if there was a limit to the scope or enforcement of such mandates that you would not support, making you an "anti-vaxxer" according to the definition you provided, or if your support is without such a limit. You then tried to state that I had made a false statement by posting outdated, inaccurate information. Was trying to paint me with a derogatory title (using large, bolded font for emphasis), using a hand-picked definition, not the main purpose of your comment?

I brought up extending these mandates to flu shots because these mandates are not just for the Toronto emergency services or the CAF. Of course there are arguments for frontline workers, and CAF members, to be held to higher medical standards than the general population. However, the government is restricting freedoms of individuals based off of their medical decisions and recommending that all employers universally create their own vaccine mandates, firing those that don't comply so that they are unable from applying for EI. There is also a "vaccine passport" system in place in Ontario, what if this system was to be extended indefinitely and include things such as flu vaccination status?

What are the reasons for not including provisions for regular testing for unvaccinated employees, is it the cost/logistical burden or is it some other reason? What about the protection of basic human rights (ex. right to mobility, right to bodily autonomy), does the pandemic justify throwing them out the window, even if employees work entirely from home? 

If the intent of the workplace mandates and passport systems is to protect unvaccinated employees/citizens, who have a higher chance of being hospitalized with severe outcomes from COVID-19 infection, and prevent them from using up hospital bed spaces, why not extend them to all individuals with a higher risk of severe outcomes, whether due to age, medical condition, etc.? If it is the elderly that are primarily being hospitalized with COVID-19, why not prevent them from dining in restaurants, attending indoor events, or travelling? It would appear that those with weakened immune systems are not only more susceptible to severe outcomes of the virus but also do not create as strong an antibody response to vaccination. According to the CDC, it would seem a vaccinated individual in their 60s, 70s or 80s is at significantly higher risk of hospitalization and death (from COVID-19) than someone in their 20s, this gap doesn't close if the younger person isn't vaccinated.









						Cases, Data, and Surveillance
					

Cases, data, and surveillance to track and analyze COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Was trying to paint me with a derogatory title (using large, bolded font for emphasis), using a hand-picked definition, not the main purpose of your comment?


No.

It was a copy/paste. That's the way it came out.

Wind, nobody brought up "what is the appropriate limit on enforcement... fines, imprisonment, capitol punishment?".  Except you.

You also posted three stories about the City of Toronto vaccination mandate.

Write a letter to the mayor if you think it is unfair.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike, I'm not sure what "back and forth" you think there is on whether or not Merriam-Webster's definition  of "anti-vaxxer" changed recently to broaden the scope from "opposing laws" to "opposing regulations", it did. You outright posted inaccurate, outdated information to try and claim that I had posted something false. Your additional quotes, from the article that I posted, missed the obvious one:

*"The word 'regulations' is indeed new to the entry, but the old definition similarly included individuals who were against legal vaccine mandates."*



mariomike said:


> No.
> 
> It was a copy/paste.
> 
> That's the way it came out.



Is it just the use of over-sized bold font that was the result of copy/paste? What about the part where I stated that you wanted to paint me with a derogatory title, is that not accurate?



mariomike said:


> Nobody brought up "fines, imprisonment, capitol punishment?" Except you.



Yes, I did so in order to highlight my question about whether you have any limits to your support of regulations mandating vaccines (from the definition you provided). If you do have any limits to what you would support (for example, if there is some sort of limit on how you think they should be enforced), then you would logically fit Merriam-Webster's definition of _anti-vaxxer_.

Austria is already planning to fine individuals, 3,600 euros every three months, in enforcement of their vaccine mandate. Is this something that you support? Would you support stricter measures if this does not convince more people to get vaccinated.









						Austria plans to fine vaccine holdouts up to 3,600 euros a quarter
					

Austria's conservative-led government on Thursday gave details of its plan to make coronavirus vaccines compulsory, saying it will apply to people 14 and over and holdouts face fines of up to 3,600 euros ($4,071) every three months.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> mariomike, I'm not sure what "back and forth" you think there is on whether or not Merriam-Webster's definition  of "anti-vaxxer" changed recently to broaden the scope from "opposing laws" to "opposing regulations", it did. You outright posted inaccurate, outdated information to try and claim that I had posted something false. Your additional quotes, from the article that I posted, missed the obvious one:
> 
> *"The word 'regulations' is indeed new to the entry, but the old definition similarly included individuals who were against legal vaccine mandates."*
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just the use of over-sized bold font that was the result of copy/paste? What about the part where I stated that you wanted to paint me with a derogatory title, is that not accurate?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I did so in order to highlight my question about whether you have any limits to your support of regulations mandating vaccines (from the definition you provided). If you do have any limits to what you would support (for example, if there is some sort of limit on how you think they should be enforced), then you would logically fit Merriam-Webster's definition of _anti-vaxxer_.
> 
> Austria is already planning to fine individuals, 3,600 euros every three months, in enforcement of their vaccine mandate. Is this something that you support? Would you support stricter measures if this does not convince more people to get vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Austria plans to fine vaccine holdouts up to 3,600 euros a quarter
> 
> 
> Austria's conservative-led government on Thursday gave details of its plan to make coronavirus vaccines compulsory, saying it will apply to people 14 and over and holdouts face fines of up to 3,600 euros ($4,071) every three months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Austria’s vaccination is one of the lower ones in the EU.   Ours is somewhat higher.  Austria will do what Austria feels is best for Austria.


----------



## winds_13

Remius said:


> Austria’s vaccination is one of the lower ones in the EU.   Ours is somewhat higher.  Austria will do what Austria feels is best for Austria.


Remius, so you support Austria's decision? Would you support a similar decision in Canada at our current vaccination rate? If not, at what vaccination rate do you consider such a mandate to be justified?

In Canada we have already emplaced employer mandates that see employees facing dismissal for non-compliance, the loss of wages is typically more than the cost of Austria's fines. The federal government has recommended all employers to follow suit, which would make it very difficult for such individuals to find employment.


----------



## The Bread Guy

winds_13 said:


> ... Do you consider someone that is pro-vaccine but anti-mandate to be an anti-vaxxer? Does this make the Pope an anti-vaxxer because although he has recommended his followers to get vaccinated, referring to it as an "act of love", he has also stated that "vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines (21 December 2020)
> 
> 
> Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines, 21 December 2020
> 
> 
> 
> www.vatican.va
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (...)


I wouldn't consider the Pope anti-vax, especially given 1)  the Vatican's own semi-mandate as of this past 1 October - more here from Catholic media, and 2) his encouragement (rather than active or passive discouragement) of people getting the shots.


----------



## winds_13

The Bread Guy said:


> I wouldn't consider the Pope anti-vax, especially given 1)  the Vatican's own semi-mandate as of this past 1 October - more here from Catholic media, and 2) his encouragement (rather than active or passive discouragement) of people getting the shots.


The Vatican's vaccination policy states that all employees are to be vaccinated *or submit to testing. *Requiring employees to be tested regularly is not the same thing as a vaccine mandate. There is nothing in the policy that is contrary to the Pope's previous remarks stating that vaccination must be voluntary and that Catholics may refuse vaccination on grounds of conscience.

So, if he apparently does not support mandatory vaccination, would you consider him to be an "anti-vaxxer" based off the previously proposed definition from Merriam-Webster.


----------



## The Bread Guy

winds_13 said:


> ... if he apparently does not support mandatory vaccination, would you consider him to be an "anti-vaxxer" based off the previously proposed definition from Merriam-Webster.


Question asked and answered, based on my read of what the Vatican is doing ....


The Bread Guy said:


> *I wouldn't consider the Pope anti-vax ...*


----------



## kev994

Speaking of employer encouragement, I find it strange that restaurant workers still have no mandate while the patrons do. It seems like every couple days our county announces that anyone who visited restaurant x during the period of Dec 1- Dec 8 needs to go get tested…. It clearly has to be an issue with someone who works there. Presumably it has to do with the lack of people who are willing to work there, shrinking the pool further is maybe not an option.


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Remius, so you support Austria's decision? Would you support a similar decision in Canada at our current vaccination rate? If not, at what vaccination rate do you consider such a mandate to be justified?
> 
> In Canada we have already emplaced employer mandates that see employees facing dismissal for non-compliance, the loss of wages is typically more than the cost of Austria's fines. The federal government has recommended all employers to follow suit, which would make it very difficult for such individuals to find employment.


I don’t know enough about Austria’s cultural and political make up to make an informed  decision on whether I support or not.  

All I know is I support the right for anyone to refuse vaccination on whatever grounds they see fit.  Be it moral, religious, fear, or pseudo scientific beliefs etc etc. 

But I also support society creating the rules and parameters that someone has to follow in order to fully participate in said society.  

So while I cannot say how I feel about what Austria does for Austria, I would not be comfortable with Canada setting continuous fines for non compliance of vaccination as an over arching law.  But I am perfectly fine with Federal and Provincial Governments setting the rules or allowing businesses and enterprise to set the parameters for conditions of employment and safety within their respective jurisdictions to get through this. 

People can be fired for whatever reason barring human rights issues based on race, age, gender etc.  As long as proper severance or collective agreements are followed and notice is given.


----------



## Remius

kev994 said:


> Speaking of employer encouragement, I find it strange that restaurant workers still have no mandate while the patrons do. It seems like every couple days our county announces that anyone who visited restaurant x during the period of Dec 1- Dec 8 needs to go get tested…. It clearly has to be an issue with someone who works there. Presumably it has to do with the lack of people who are willing to work there, shrinking the pool further is maybe not an option.


I would imagine it has to do with the employer making that call for its workforce.  I think the provincial government can mandate and regulate safety for patrons but employees would fall under whatever labour code and rules an employer can decide.  I might be off but not sure.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Surf's up....

Boris Johnson confirms first U.K. omicron death after urging boosters to fight Covid 'tidal wave'​At least one person with the new variant has died, the prime minister said Monday, after the British government raised the coronavirus threat level to its second-highest level Sunday.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced a new effort to get the country Covid-19 booster shots by New Year's Day, saying the region faces a "tidal wave" of new coronavirus infections.

In a national broadcast Sunday evening, Johnson said the government will try to get boosters to residents 18 and older by the end of the month. His original timeline had been to have the United Kingdom up to three vaccine doses by the end of January, but that has changed amid fears about the new omicron variant.


One person infected with omicron has died in the country, the prime minister said Monday. Another 10 people in England have been hospitalized with the variant, the majority of whom had two vaccines, the U.K. Health Security Agency said in a tweet.

"I think the idea that this is somehow a milder version of the virus, I think that’s something we need to set on one side and just recognize the sheer pace at which it accelerates through the population," Johnson said during a visit to a London vaccination clinic.









						Boris Johnson confirms first omicron death after warning U.K. faces 'tidal wave'
					

At least one person with the new variant has died, the prime minister said Monday, after the British government raised the coronavirus threat level to its second-highest level Sunday.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> People can be fired for whatever reason barring human rights issues based on race, age, gender etc.  As long as proper severance or collective agreements are followed and notice is given.


That is my understanding also.

Opinions may vary as to what is "fair or unfair".

But, the employer owns the liability for the health and safety of their employees and clients.

Especially employers who regularly send their members into family homes.

Those employees do not have the option to "stay at home - work from home ".

It seems some employers may take the health and safety of their staff and customers more seriously than others,



kev994 said:


> I find it strange that restaurant workers still have no mandate while the patrons do.



In today's news,









						Workplace vaccination mandates will likely include a third shot, say labour law experts
					

Company vaccine mandates typically defer to public health authorities on the definition of ‘fully vaccinated,’ and won’t need much tweaking to include the booster, says Howard Levitt.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> It seems some employers may take the health and safety of their staff and customers more seriously than others,


Which employers are these, exactly? Are they the ones I previously mentioned, that are experiencing major outbreaks amongst vaccinated staff, after having imposed vaccine mandates?

What would cause 32 vaccinated people in the same office, void of unvaccinated staff, to become infected... isn't being vaccinated enough? Is it not the unvaccinated that are causing the continuation of community spread over the last few months (even though they cannot dine in restauarants, visit museums, attend sporting events, etc.)?

As I stated before, perhaps the employer should do more to follow recent recommendations from PHAC, such as procuring respirators (N95 masks) for members that work in the community, including around vulnerable people.

Further, it seems many have become complacent with following public health guidelines, believing that they have "done the right thing" by getting vaccinated and that is all that is required to prevent spread... that they are doing everything they can to "take the health and safety of their staff and customers" seriously.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Which employers are these, exactly?





kev994 said:


> I find it strange that restaurant workers still have no mandate while the patrons do.



I think Kev was pretty specific.


----------



## winds_13

The question was for you, mariomike, not Kev. That should have been obvious seeing as I quoted you, perhaps I should be more specific?  

You said:


mariomike said:


> Especially employers who regularly send their members into family homes.
> 
> Those employees do not have the option to "stay at home - work from home ".
> 
> It seems some employers may take the health and safety of their staff and customers more seriously than others,


Maybe it's just my own assumption  that maybe you were talking about a different type of employer, such as police and other frontline workers... I guess you were referring to food delivery drivers, although most of them just leave your order on your doorstep now.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Maybe it's just my own assumption  that maybe you were talking about a different type of employer, such as police and other frontline workers...



Kev was talking about restaurant workers.

My reply was to his post.  Not yours.

You posted three stories about Toronto emergency services.

My opinion on the city mandate is the same as below,



lenaitch said:


> So he gets infected - from whatever source - and takes his whole crew out of service.  How is that public safety?  Perhaps a relatively healthy person could survive being medically treated by an infected firefighter or paramedic, but could a medically compromised one?  The employer (city) owns the liability.



My reply to you was, and still is,


mariomike said:


> Write a letter to the mayor if you think it is unfair.


----------



## Quirky

winds_13 said:


> Further, it seems many have become complacent with following public health guidelines


After two years of this crap, people just don’t care anymore.


----------



## mariomike

Science. Politics. Authority. Opinions vary.

And. as always, the bottom line:

( Krogers employs half a million Americans. )









						Supermarket Chain Kroger Strips Away Paid Covid-19 Benefits And Slaps An Insurance Surcharge On Unvaccinated Employees
					

Kroger, one of the biggest employers in the U.S. —with nearly half a million full-time and part-time employee— said that they are “eliminating some Covid-19 benefits for unvaccinated employees, a move to encourage vaccinations as the Biden administration’s vaccine mandate faces legal challenges.”




					www.forbes.com
				




Delta Airlines



> Beginning Nov. 1, unvaccinated employees enrolled in Delta’s account-based healthcare plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:


> Science. Politics. Authority. Opinions vary.
> 
> And. as always, the bottom line:
> 
> ( Krogers employs half a million Americans. )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supermarket Chain Kroger Strips Away Paid Covid-19 Benefits And Slaps An Insurance Surcharge On Unvaccinated Employees
> 
> 
> Kroger, one of the biggest employers in the U.S. —with nearly half a million full-time and part-time employee— said that they are “eliminating some Covid-19 benefits for unvaccinated employees, a move to encourage vaccinations as the Biden administration’s vaccine mandate faces legal challenges.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta Airlines



At least they offer an alternative. I still have concerns, but in a private medical system, tacking on an extra charge isn't completely outrageous (assuming that COVID actually poses an increased insurance risk that is actually $200 per month) in and of itself. However the inconsistency is problematic ... why don't employees who are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, drink (thereby causing more insurance risk) don't have to pay more? Many many more people die every year from heart disease than COVID. That inconsistency is what makes this smack of politics rather than health.


----------



## Remius

How do you know they aren’t?  And even so, none of those conditions are transmissible.


----------



## mariomike

LittleBlackDevil said:


> ... why don't employees who are overweight, don't exercise, smoke, drink (thereby causing more insurance risk) don't have to pay more?





Remius said:


> How do you know they aren’t?



We had to pass a medical every three years. If you failed, they dropped you into a lower paying "suitable" job classification.

( If the failure was covered by WSIB, there would be no pay loss. )

There was no fitness test, after the original when you applied.  Apparently they figured if you worked operations 40 hours a week, you were likely fit for duty.

I was hardly a role model, but I quit smoking ( if I was told I was not long for this world, my first move would be to buy a cartoon of Rothman's ), cut back on my drinking, and tried to watch my diet and excercise.



Remius said:


> And even so, none of those conditions are transmissible.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> How do you know they aren’t?  And even so, none of those conditions are transmissible.


No, not transmissible. But there is a pandemic of obesity and they are draining the majority of healthcare resources throughout their life. This is probably why there is a 9 month wait for an MRI, ect. So if the aim is to reduce pressure on the healthcare system, they should look at the factors most affecting it over the long term.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Well then:









						German police foil 'anti-vaxxer murder plot' against state premier
					

German police have foiled a plot by anti-vaccination activists to murder the state premier of Saxony in eastern Germany, they said on Wednesday, as concerns grow over an increasingly violent pushback against COVID-19 vaccination plans.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Anti-vaccine protest featuring effigies of B.C. politicians slammed as 'disturbing,' 'offensive'
					

A protest at the B.C. legislature featuring hanging effigies of provincial politicians went too far, according to critics concerned about escalating behaviour from those opposed to COVID-19 vaccines and public health measures.




					bc.ctvnews.ca
				












						Politicians hanged in effigy at protest at B.C. legislature reflect disturbing trend: expert  | Globalnews.ca
					

A UVic expert on radicalization and extremism said the display was a sign of disturbing growth in violent language and imagery in political protest.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Remius said:


> How do you know they aren’t?  And even so, none of those conditions are transmissible.



Because if they were there would be lawsuits like crazy and the media would be screaming hysterically about discrimination, ableism, and fat-shaming.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:


> We had to pass a medical every three years. If you failed, they dropped you into a lower paying "suitable" job classification.
> 
> ( If the failure was covered by WSIB, there would be no pay loss. )
> 
> There was no fitness test. Apparently they figured if you worked operations 40 hours a week, you were likely fit for duty.
> 
> I was hardly a role model, but I quit smoking ( if I was told I was not long for this world, my first move would be to buy a cartoon of Rothman's ), cut back on my drinking, and tried to watch my diet and excercise.


Assuming you don't work at Kroger.

Also, there is an assumption that unvaccinated = you are carrying the disease. This seems a leap. I don't see how testing isn't a viable alternative, that actually guarantees you're not a danger to anyone whereas as Omicron is showing, the fully vaccinated certain can and do transmit. 

Hasn't the argument been that the main benefit of the vaccines is that they reduce the severity of illness? Isn't that comparable to the things I listed? Severity of outcome is not transmissible.


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Because if they were there would be lawsuits like crazy and the media would be screaming hysterically about discrimination, ableism, and fat-shaming.


Plenty of insurance groups increase your rates if you smoke or have health issues, some do not.  In this case though it seems they are pretty clear they are trying encourage vaccination.


----------



## Remius

OceanBonfire said:


> Well then:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> German police foil 'anti-vaxxer murder plot' against state premier
> 
> 
> German police have foiled a plot by anti-vaccination activists to murder the state premier of Saxony in eastern Germany, they said on Wednesday, as concerns grow over an increasingly violent pushback against COVID-19 vaccination plans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-vaccine protest featuring effigies of B.C. politicians slammed as 'disturbing,' 'offensive'
> 
> 
> A protest at the B.C. legislature featuring hanging effigies of provincial politicians went too far, according to critics concerned about escalating behaviour from those opposed to COVID-19 vaccines and public health measures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bc.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Politicians hanged in effigy at protest at B.C. legislature reflect disturbing trend: expert  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> A UVic expert on radicalization and extremism said the display was a sign of disturbing growth in violent language and imagery in political protest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Nice bunch…


----------



## mariomike

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Assuming you don't work at Kroger.



Assuming I wasn't already retired, - unless double-vaxxed as of 31 Oct. - I would not have been working. Period.


----------



## cld617

winds_13 said:


> Which employers are these, exactly? Are they the ones I previously mentioned, that are experiencing major outbreaks amongst vaccinated staff, after having imposed vaccine mandates?
> 
> What would cause 32 vaccinated people in the same office, void of unvaccinated staff, to become infected... isn't being vaccinated enough? Is it not the unvaccinated that are causing the continuation of community spread over the last few months (even though they cannot dine in restauarants, visit museums, attend sporting events, etc.)?



Are you genuine in your lack of understanding on how the vaccine works and what it provides or are you being willfully obtuse for arguments sake? 

The vaccinations aren't magical forcefields, we've known since the beginning there will be breakthrough cases. So no, it's not enough considering the potential to spread is still there. The risks associated with being exposed to the virus are much lower, but they're still present.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Anyone taking bets on another UK lockdown for Christmas?

UK COVID cases hit record; Top doctor warns of worse to come​ 

LONDON (AP) — The U.K. recorded the highest number of confirmed new COVID-19 infections Wednesday since the pandemic began, and England’s chief medical officer warned the situation is likely to get worse as the omicron variant drives a new wave of illness during the Christmas holidays.

Professor Chris Whitty described the current situation as two epidemics in one — with omicron infections rising rapidly even as the country continues to grapple with the older delta variant, which is still causing a large number of infections. Public health officials expect omicron to become the dominant variant across the U.K. within days. Omicron already accounts for a majority of cases in London.

The U.K. recorded 78,610 new infections on Wednesday, 16% higher than the previous record set in January. While scientists are still studying the risks posed by the highly transmissible omicron variant, Witty said the public should be braced for the figures to continue rising in coming weeks.

“There are several things we don’t know,’’ Whitty said. “But all the things we do know are bad, the principal one being the speed at which this is moving. It is moving at an absolutely phenomenal pace.’’

The comments came on the day that the U.K. government implemented new rules ordering masks to be worn in most indoor settings in England and requiring proof of vaccination or a negative coronavirus test to enter nightclubs and large crowded events.

Britain is also accelerating its the national vaccination program, with a goal of offering a booster dose to every adult by the end of December. The government said within days it will open new mass vaccination centers at sports stadiums around the country, including Wembley, the 90,000-seat national soccer stadium in London.

Whitty advised people to limit their social contacts, putting a priority on those that are the most important.









						UK COVID cases hit record; Top doctor warns of worse to come
					

LONDON (AP) — The U.K.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## kev994

daftandbarmy said:


> Anyone taking bets on another UK lockdown for Christmas?
> 
> UK COVID cases hit record; Top doctor warns of worse to come​
> 
> LONDON (AP) — The U.K. recorded the highest number of confirmed new COVID-19 infections Wednesday since the pandemic began, and England’s chief medical officer warned the situation is likely to get worse as the omicron variant drives a new wave of illness during the Christmas holidays.
> 
> Professor Chris Whitty described the current situation as two epidemics in one — with omicron infections rising rapidly even as the country continues to grapple with the older delta variant, which is still causing a large number of infections. Public health officials expect omicron to become the dominant variant across the U.K. within days. Omicron already accounts for a majority of cases in London.
> 
> The U.K. recorded 78,610 new infections on Wednesday, 16% higher than the previous record set in January. While scientists are still studying the risks posed by the highly transmissible omicron variant, Witty said the public should be braced for the figures to continue rising in coming weeks.
> 
> “There are several things we don’t know,’’ Whitty said. “But all the things we do know are bad, the principal one being the speed at which this is moving. It is moving at an absolutely phenomenal pace.’’
> 
> The comments came on the day that the U.K. government implemented new rules ordering masks to be worn in most indoor settings in England and requiring proof of vaccination or a negative coronavirus test to enter nightclubs and large crowded events.
> 
> Britain is also accelerating its the national vaccination program, with a goal of offering a booster dose to every adult by the end of December. The government said within days it will open new mass vaccination centers at sports stadiums around the country, including Wembley, the 90,000-seat national soccer stadium in London.
> 
> Whitty advised people to limit their social contacts, putting a priority on those that are the most important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK COVID cases hit record; Top doctor warns of worse to come
> 
> 
> LONDON (AP) — The U.K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


78,000!!! Holy crap!


----------



## PuckChaser

kev994 said:


> 78,000!!! Holy crap!


Hidden way down in the article is that daily fatalities are down to 10% of their peak last winter, with similar stats for hospitalizations. Case count fear mongering.


----------



## QV

kev994 said:


> 78,000!!! Holy crap!


So high vaccine uptake and record setting cases... 

Maybe, just maybe, listening to those who profit from our illness is not the best COA.









						Third Pfizer-BioNTech Dose Is Key to Fight Omicron’s Spread
					

Pfizer Inc. and BioNTech SE said initial lab studies show a third dose of their Covid-19 vaccine may be needed to neutralize the omicron variant, results that will accelerate booster-shot drives around the world and may lead to use of new strain-specific vaccines.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




But they'd never to anything nefarious...









						Justice Department Announces Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in Its History
					

American pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc. and its subsidiary Pharmacia & Upjohn Company Inc. (hereinafter together “Pfizer”) have agreed to pay $2.3 billion, the largest health care fraud settlement in the history of the Department of Justice, to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from...




					www.justice.gov
				






			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/pfizer-agrees-to-pay-60m-to-settle-foreign-bribery-case/2012/08/07/a2426f5e-e0b6-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_story.html


----------



## kev994

PuckChaser said:


> Hidden way down in the article is that daily fatalities are down to 10% of their peak last winter, with similar stats for hospitalizations. Case count fear mongering.


I think the death toll lags a fair bit, but I haven’t been following how quickly this has escalated.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Case count is not hospitalization count or death count.  Yes, an extremely high case count of a less harmful variant could produce overall high net numbers of the latter two.  But best not to get all alarmist over the data points that don't matter.  Too much panicked lockdown over too little need will waste the trust and goodwill of people against the day it might be needed again.


----------



## mariomike

cld617 said:


> Are you genuine in your lack of understanding on how the vaccine works and what it provides or are you being willfully obtuse for arguments sake?
> 
> The vaccinations aren't magical forcefields, we've known since the beginning there will be breakthrough cases. So no, it's not enough considering the potential to spread is still there. The risks associated with being exposed to the virus are much lower, but they're still present.



Sort of like the seat-belt mandate. People still die in traffic accidents while buckled up. 

Doesn't prove the mandate does not save lives.


----------



## PMedMoe

I think the case count is pretty useless now. Hospital and ICU numbers are more telling. 

Hospitalizations


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> Sort of like the seat-belt mandate. People still die in traffic accidents while buckled up.
> 
> Doesn't prove the mandate does not save lives.


Terrible comparison. You can't have a bad reaction to wearing a seatbelt. Seatbelts don't cause heart inflammation.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Terrible comparison.



I think resistance to the seat-belt mandate decades ago has some similarity to resistance to the mandates of today.









						When New Seat Belt Laws Drew Fire as a Violation of Personal Freedom
					

The 1980s battle over safety belt laws reflected widespread ambivalence over the role and value of government regulation.




					www.history.com
				






> When David Hollister introduced a seat belt bill in Michigan in the early 1980s that levied a fine for not buckling up, the state representative received hate mail comparing him to Hitler.











						Michigan seat belt law turns 30 after bitter battle
					

Cradle of auto industry was poised for U.S.'s 1st seat belt law in early '80s, but mandate faced a bitter battle.



					www.freep.com
				




Seatbelts became mandatory in Ontario on January 1, 1976.

I remember how furious some people were. No social media back then, but you could read their rage in the Letters to the Editor.


----------



## Booter

QV said:


> Terrible comparison. You can't have a bad reaction to wearing a seatbelt. Seatbelts don't cause heart inflammation.


They do however kill people in certain car accidents.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> I think the case count is pretty useless now. Hospital and ICU numbers are more telling.



As well as any increase in non-traumatic out-of-hospital cardiac arrests, compared to pre-Covid.



Booter said:


> They do however kill people in certain car accidents.



They also protect you from being ejected from the car, or tossed around inside it.


----------



## winds_13

cld617, yes I am aware how the vaccines work. I was pointing out that evidently the protection provided by the vaccines against spread of the virus is now much less than previously predicted, bordering on negligible. The notion that breakthrough cases are somehow rare or that spread amongst vaccinated people is significantly less than amongst the unvaccinated. However, the current hardline vaccine mandates being imposed across the government and elsewhere were put in place off the notion that preventing unvaccinated employees from working, even if they can regularly provide tests that they are virus-free, would significantly improve everyone's health and safety.

If you read my previous posts, you will know that I am pro-vaccine and recognize that they offer significant protection against severe disease, atleast against Delta and previous variants.



cld617 said:


> The vaccinations aren't magical forcefields, we've known since the beginning there will be breakthrough cases.



You've known since the beginning that we would not be able to achieve herd immunity at any vaccination rate and that we'd be seeing increased cases again at our current vaccination level? That offices with 100% fully vaccinated employees would be having outbreaks in the dozens?
Maybe you should have told everyone, because that's not what the messaging was several months.









						Globe editorial: Thanks to a coming boost to Canada’s vaccine supply, pandemic victory is finally in sight
					

Canada’s vaccination campaign now leads the G7, the G20 and the OECD in the share of population with a first dose




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Booter

mariomike said:


> They also protect you from being ejected from the car, or tossed around inside it.


I was trying to help with your analogy. They aren’t cure alls. Like vaccines.


----------



## brihard

Hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths are all lagging indicators by a couple of weeks, and we first heard of Omicron just 21 days ago or so, with cases only really starting to explode in the past few days. Right now Omicron is displaying the angriest exponential growth we've seen, and in many jurisdictions. There literally has not yet been time to see how many cases will translate to hospitalization, intensive care, or death, but the precautionary principle would dictate formulating public policy and health approaches on an assumption that it's comparable to prior strains in terms of virulence. Because of how rapidly it's exploded, we'll know for sure quite soon, and restrictions can be walked back if in fact that's what the data supports. Even if a smaller proportion of cases end up hospitalized, if it achieves many more infections, that could still overwhelm the system. Don't forget how close Ontario and Alberta both were to transporting patients out of province. Saskatchewan and Manitoba had to, and they wer elucky that their waves didn't peak at the same time as Ontario. Omicron is hitting all of us at once, and Ontario the worst- there won't _be_ anywhere else to dump ICU patients to if in fact it does what it looks poised to do.


----------



## mariomike

Saw this about "fully vaccinated".

DECEMBER 17, 2021

Fully Vaccinated Is About to Mean Something Else​








						'Fully Vaccinated' Is About to Mean Something Else
					

The CDC might update the definition very soon, even though we still don’t know for sure how many shots we’ll need.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

brihard said:


> Hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths are all lagging indicators by a couple of weeks, and we first heard of Omicron just 21 days ago or so, with cases only really starting to explode in the past few days. Right now Omicron is displaying the angriest exponential growth we've seen, and in many jurisdictions. There literally has not yet been time to see how many cases will translate to hospitalization, intensive care, or death, but the precautionary principle would dictate formulating public policy and health approaches on an assumption that it's comparable to prior strains in terms of virulence. Because of how rapidly it's exploded, we'll know for sure quite soon, and restrictions can be walked back if in fact that's what the data supports. Even if a smaller proportion of cases end up hospitalized, if it achieves many more infections, that could still overwhelm the system. Don't forget how close Ontario and Alberta both were to transporting patients out of province. Saskatchewan and Manitoba had to, and they wer elucky that their waves didn't peak at the same time as Ontario. Omicron is hitting all of us at once, and Ontario the worst- there won't _be_ anywhere else to dump ICU patients to if in fact it does what it looks poised to do.



A counter-narrative to that from the Doctor that discovered Omicron Variant:









						DR. ANGELIQUE COETZEE: Britain is overreacting to Omicron
					

DR. ANGELIQUE COETZEE: With predictions of one million cases by the end of the month, I gather there is talk of Christmas being cancelled and a possible New Year lockdown.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				






> The UK Government's handling of what Boris Johnson warned will be a 'tidal wave' of Omicron infections verges on hysteria.
> 
> With predictions of one million cases by the end of the month and concerns about the NHS being overwhelmed with up to 10,000 hospitalisations per day, I gather there is talk of Christmas again being cancelled and a possible New Year lockdown.
> 
> Yet you only have to look at the picture in South Africa, where the world's first known cases of Omicron were spotted, to realise this reaction is out of all proportion to the risks posed by this variant.





> And I should know — because I am the doctor who first raised the alarm about Omicron back in November.
> 
> The variant appeared to have been circulating in South Africa for some time, having previously been identified in Botswana. It was my duty — both as a GP and as chair of the South African Medical Association — to report my concerns.
> Symptoms​I have no regrets about doing so, but I was astonished by the extraordinary worldwide reaction in the days that followed, with Britain and some other European nations imposing heavy travel restrictions on flights from across southern Africa, as well as imposing tighter rules at home on mask-wearing, fines and extended quarantines.





> I said then that we didn't know anywhere near enough about Omicron to make such judgments, or impose such policies. Now I find myself even more astonished by the UK Government's latest pronouncements, given what has become apparent about Omicron in the past four weeks.
> 
> *I have been working with Omicron patients throughout that time, and I think it's safe to say that I know more than most about the effects it can have on human beings.
> 
> As a general practitioner for more than 33 years, I am one of the foot soldiers who sees patients first. We clinicians deal day-to-day with real people, not statistical projections, and I can reassure you that the symptoms presenting in those with Omicron are very, very mild compared with those we see with the far more dangerous Delta variant.*



People are scared, politicians need to be seen to be doing something....rinse and repeat


----------



## Czech_pivo

What is important to understand is the average timeline from when a person is diagnosed as having Covid and when hospitalization may occur.









						Remote Monitoring of COVID-19 Symptoms - Early Prediction of Aggressive COVID-19 Progression and Hospitalization
					

Mayo Clinic's study on remote monitoring of COVID-19 symptoms in people who have the virus helps researchers understand how patients progress and recover from this disease.




					www.mayo.edu
				




_"While the 10 to 12 days after a positive COVID-19 test are when many patients are hospitalized,"_

So, when you read that the UK had its highest number of Covid cases since the pandemic started (over 78,000 on Wednesday) and some then ask the question, well, what about their hospitalizations and numbers in ICU?  Its too early to ask that question based on observed facts.  We need to look at their hospitalizations/ICU numbers after Boxing Day and into NYE.

Ontario will be in a similar state.  On Dec 16 Ontario announced over 2,400 cases, more than double 2 weeks earlier.  So, around Boxing Day through NYE we need to see if our hospitalizations/ICU numbers do the same thing.  Until then, its a waiting game.


----------



## Kilted

This kind of feels like the start of the pandemic again, there are few restrictions and things are slowly shutting down.


----------



## The Bread Guy

QV said:


> Terrible comparison. You can't have a bad reaction to wearing a seatbelt. Seatbelts don't cause heart inflammation.


About that ...


> ... "We estimated between 1 and 10 extra events of myocarditis in 1 million people vaccinated with a first or second dose, but 40 extra cases in 1 million people infected with COVID-19," Oxford professor and study lead Julia Hippisley-Cox said ...


----------



## kratz

Humphrey Bogart said:


> People are scared, politicians need to be seen to be doing something....rinse and repeat



...as well as tired, fatigued WRT COVID, the restrictions et el... we know from our own jobs, 
nobody can maintain an effective heightened alert level over extended periods of time without breaks, rest and relief.


----------



## PuckChaser

30 days post detection of Omnicron in South Africa, hospitalizations, deaths all significantly decreased than previous Delta wave. South Africa also has about half the vaccination rate of Canada on average.

South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave


----------



## mariomike

kratz said:


> ... we know from our own jobs, nobody can maintain an effective heightened alert level over extended periods of time without breaks, rest and relief.



As a retired person, my Covid heroes are our front-line, essential and health care workers who do not have the employment option to stay at home / work from home.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

For those worried about Omicron:  

Great news out of South Africa









						South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave
					

South Africa delivered some positive news on the omicron coronavirus variant on Friday, reporting a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




1.9% hospitalization rate with Omicron vs 19% hospitalization rate with Delta over the same time period.

Cases much milder than Delta and cases appear to be peaking in Gauteng where Omicron was discovered.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:


> 30 days post detection of Omnicron in South Africa, hospitalizations, deaths all significantly decreased than previous Delta wave. South Africa also has about half the vaccination rate of Canada on average.
> 
> South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave


Lots of places in Africa also use Ivermectin on a regular basis as a prophylaxis against parasitic and viral infections.








						COVID-19: The Ivermectin African Enigma - PubMed
					

The incidence in mortality rates and number of cases is significantly lower among the APOC countries compared to non-APOC countries. That a mass public health preventive campaign against COVID-19 may have taken place, inadvertently, in some African countries with massive community ivermectin use...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Czech_pivo

PuckChaser said:


> 30 days post detection of Omnicron in South Africa, hospitalizations, deaths all significantly decreased than previous Delta wave. South Africa also has about half the vaccination rate of Canada on average.
> 
> South Africa Hospitalization Rate Plunges in Omicron Wave


It sounds encouraging, but for the fact that the average age of a SA is 27yrs old, here in Ontario its 44yrs old.  Do an analysis of the hospitalization rates and death rates in the 25-30yr old range and then the same analysis in the 40-45yr range.   Also, yes they have lower vaccination rates but they have a much higher % of the population that actually has 'natural' immunity due to the fact that more SA's have been infected with Covid than Canadians.

I want nothing more than Omicron to be 'mild' when compared to Delta, but if the transmissibility is 6-7 times greater than Delta, the math will not play out in our favour, even if its 'milder'.


----------



## PuckChaser

Czech_pivo said:


> It sounds encouraging, but for the fact that the average age of a SA is 27yrs old, here in Ontario its 44yrs old.  Do an analysis of the hospitalization rates and death rates in the 25-30yr old range and then the same analysis in the 40-45yr range.   Also, yes they have lower vaccination rates but they have a much higher % of the population that actually has 'natural' immunity due to the fact that more SA's have been infected with Covid than Canadians.
> 
> I want nothing more than Omicron to be 'mild' when compared to Delta, but if the transmissibility is 6-7 times greater than Delta, the math will not play out in our favour, even if its 'milder'.


2/3 of today's cases are in the 20-39 age group. Omnicron is milder, vaccines make it even milder. Sometimes pictures are better to explain it's time to just let COVID go, because like you said we could rapidly create natural immunity after trying to hide from germs. Or maybe by the 15th booster and 5 layer cloth tshirt masks we'll finally have beaten something that a overwhelming majority will not even notice they had.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

So its milder??  So what??   Why not warn folks to be more careful and maybe cut into some potential super-speader events??

Really, this is the height of your oppression?


----------



## mariomike

ModlrMike said:


> I know it's typically bad form to quote yourself, but here's what I wrote on influenza earlier in the year:





ModlrMike said:


> Secondly, the uptake for the flu vaccine, at least in Canada, was greatly increased this year.



Uptake was mandated where I used to work.

Kept it up voluntarily since I retired. So far, so good.


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> 2/3 of today's cases are in the 20-39 age group. Omnicron is milder, vaccines make it even milder. Sometimes pictures are better to explain it's time to just let COVID go, because like you said we could rapidly create natural immunity after trying to hide from germs. Or maybe by the 15th booster and 5 layer cloth tshirt masks we'll finally have beaten something that a overwhelming majority will not even notice they had.


A slightly smaller slice of a vastly larger pie is still more pie in your mouth.

The issue is not overall case numbers. It never has been. Public health policy has never been formulated here on that basis. The issue remains the threat to the critical care system. It's fine to say 'let 'er rip', believing that your odds are good if, as an individual, you catch it (and they are). That does nothing for the car crash or stabbing victims when the ICU is full. Remember when patients form Toronto were going to ICUs in Sudbury? Or later when patients from Saskatchewan came here? Now imagine all the ICUs full at once, unable to take patient transfers, and triage protocols in play, including for non-Covid injury or illness. Better hope you don't have a jammer while you're on the treadmill, or get t boned by a drunk driver, because there may not be another staffed ICU bed elsewhere to dump you on.

That is the very real risk here. And we are not dealing with a critical care system that can throw as many bodies at the problem as they could a year ago. A lot have burned out and quit or transferred to other specialties.


----------



## ModlrMike

We are expecting to ship 45 low acuity patients per week from Winnipeg to rural hospitals and care homes.  At some point, on the current trajectory, we will lose even that buffer. "Let 'er rip" is not the way forward.


----------



## brihard

ModlrMike said:


> We are expecting to ship 45 low acuity patients per week from Winnipeg to rural hospitals and care homes.  At some point, on the current trajectory, we will lose even that buffer. "Let 'er rip" is not the way forward.


Is this to allow for staffing more concentrated acute care beds?


----------



## Quirky

ModlrMike said:


> We are expecting to ship 45 low acuity patients per week from Winnipeg to rural hospitals and care homes.  At some point, on the current trajectory, we will lose even that buffer. "Let 'er rip" is not the way forward.


 Province of 1.3m can’t handle 45 patients. Our healthcare system is the problem, not Covid.


----------



## ModlrMike

Not entirely, we are running out of beds. One of the unexpected outcomes of the pandemic is that it revealed that a lot of people who were barely hanging on at home, once they became sick and got admitted to hospital, were too frail to return home. In the past we may have been able to cope with things like Home Care, or transitional care, but the numbers of frail elderly who can't go home are staggering (no pun intended). Sick, but not ICU sick Covid patients being injected into the system has made things that much worse.


----------



## ModlrMike

Quirky said:


> Province of 1.3m can’t handle 45 patients. Our healthcare system is the problem, not Covid.


Politicians have known for years that there is a tsunami of elderly "not going home again" patients coming. Because they can't fix the problem in four years, they have repeatedly ignored it. We are paying that bill now.


----------



## daftandbarmy

ModlrMike said:


> Not entirely, we are running out of beds. One of the unexpected outcomes of the pandemic is that it revealed that a lot of people who were barely hanging on at home, once they became sick and got admitted to hospital, were too frail to return home. In the past we may have been able to cope with things like Home Care, or transitional care, but the numbers of frail elderly who can't go home are staggering (no pun intended). Sick, but not ICU sick Covid patients being injected into the system has made things that much worse.



The new 'F Word' is Frailty:

The burden of frailty in Canada is steadily growing. Today over 1.6 million Canadians are medically frail. And in 10 years, well over two million Canadians may be living with frailty. There are 3.75 million caregivers in Canada caring for an older adult (aged 65 and over) with a long term health problem, disability or age-related condition.

Frailty is also linked to higher consumption of healthcare resources. Of the $220 billion spent on healthcare annually in Canada (11% of GDP), 46% is spent on people over 65 years old, although they are only 16% of the population. The operating costs to care for the 7% of Canadians over the age of 65 that are living in long term care homes is $31 billion dollars.








__





						Frailty Matters - Canadian Frailty Network
					






					www.cfn-nce.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

Did someone say work from home? 





__





						Important update on Defence Team COVID-19 work posture  - Canada.ca
					

Despite the high level of vaccination across the Defence Team, we are currently faced with multiple areas of COVID-19 resurgence across the country.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> Did someone say work from home?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Important update on Defence Team COVID-19 work posture  - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Despite the high level of vaccination across the Defence Team, we are currently faced with multiple areas of COVID-19 resurgence across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca



So can we just square this circle and buy lots and lots of RPAS?


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Did someone say work from home?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Important update on Defence Team COVID-19 work posture  - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Despite the high level of vaccination across the Defence Team, we are currently faced with multiple areas of COVID-19 resurgence across the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca



Shut up Jody. Sick of your shit.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Shut up Jody. Sick of your shit.


What about Wayne?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:


> What about Wayne?


Misogynists are OK with Wayne.....


----------



## RangerRay

So while the data on Omicron’s severity is encouraging, what I want to find out more about is what the probability and severity of long COVID under Omicron is.


----------



## Czech_pivo

PuckChaser said:


> 2/3 of today's cases are in the 20-39 age group. Omnicron is milder, vaccines make it even milder. Sometimes pictures are better to explain it's time to just let COVID go, because like you said we could rapidly create natural immunity after trying to hide from germs. Or maybe by the 15th booster and 5 layer cloth tshirt masks we'll finally have beaten something that a overwhelming majority will not even notice they had.


The stats you posted bear out what I was trying to say. Move from the 20-39 to the 40-49 age bracket and hospitalizations double and for deaths they go through the roof.

Let’s say Omicron is overall milder but a lot more infectious. Delta is around 1.8% fatal and the R factor was around 1.32. Now let’s say Omicron is less than half fatal when compared to Delta, say 0.9% but because the R factor is around 4.1 that’s means the number of deaths will be double that of Delta due to the much larger volume of people getting sick. Add to the fact an overburdened health system and it’s a potential tsunami.

Once Omicron rips through society in the next 8-10 weeks and if no other variants comes along, our spring and summer ‘should’ be much better.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> What about Wayne?



He good people.


----------



## brihard

On age groups- Omicron is infectious as hell. It will take full advantage of the opportunities given to spread, and the realities of exponential growth are such that whichever cohort first sees sustained growth, even with a few days advantage, will see much faster initial rise in cases. And that is the 'socially active' younger demographic. The university students going to parties, ceremonies, and rugby tournaments. The crowds filling bars and clubs on the weekend. The young professionals going to office holiday socials- or the younger workers working in all the places that all these people are going to. So it's to be expected that we would see much faster initial growth in that 20-39 bracket. And we of course are an age cohort that generally has shown pretty good medical outcomes to COVID. So early data will likely skew towards less sever medical outcomes, because of who, initially, is getting sick.

My concerns is the spread from that initial growth within the younger age cohort, to the next people in the chains of contacts. Mom and dad. Grandma and Grampa. The older teachers in the schools. The older retail workers selling us our Christmas crap.

I desperately hope Omicron proves milder. There is a bit of positive initial evidence - fast growth in the throat and bronchial tubes but slower growth in the lungs, for instance. But I'm not willing to bank on it yet.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> He good people.


But he co wrote that with Jody.  His name is on that update as much as hers.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Grinch has spoken...

B.C. enacts social gathering and event capacity limits as Omicron variant spreads​


B.C. health officials have put new restrictions in place, including social gathering limits, to help reduce the spread of the Omicron variant.






Starting on Monday, indoor gatherings will be restricted to one household plus 10 other individuals or one additional household if everyone is vaccinated against COVID-19.

Proof of vaccination via the BC Vaccine Card will be required for all organized events. Currently, only events of 50 or more people must use the vaccine card.

The province will also require event operators to scan the QR code on the card, rather than do a visual check.










						B.C. enacts social gathering and event capacity limits as Omicron variant spreads  | Globalnews.ca
					

Starting on Monday, indoor gatherings will be restricted to one household plus 10 other individuals or one additional household if everyone is vaccinated against COVID-19.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Frailty is also linked to higher consumption of healthcare resources.



Increasing frailty was predicted years ago.









						Canada's looming acute-care crisis
					

T he health-care system is about to embrace the baby-boom generation and a recent symposium at Queen's University forecast that, at best, the results will be problematic. At worst, our system may implode.




					www.thestar.com
				




As the "Baby Boom" generation ages, those 'boomers' become net consumers of health care, driving up demand for services.

Simultaneously,  'boomers' working in health care have reached the end of their careers, or soon will be. Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, there is difficulty recruiting suitably trained replacement staff, just as demand for services is increasing.

That was one of the reasons our employer mandated influenza vaccination.

The newspaper reports back then ( 1999 ) about "mandatory" ( influenza ) vaccination were similar "for anyone who’s paid any critical mind to Facebook, Twitter or other large social media over the past year…"



> The union argued employers should not have the right to force employees to take the shot.



That was from 2000. But, it could have been 2022.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> The Grinch has spoken...
> 
> B.C. enacts social gathering and event capacity limits as Omicron variant spreads​
> 
> 
> B.C. health officials have put new restrictions in place, including social gathering limits, to help reduce the spread of the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starting on Monday, indoor gatherings will be restricted to one household plus 10 other individuals or one additional household if everyone is vaccinated against COVID-19.
> 
> Proof of vaccination via the BC Vaccine Card will be required for all organized events. Currently, only events of 50 or more people must use the vaccine card.
> 
> The province will also require event operators to scan the QR code on the card, rather than do a visual check.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. enacts social gathering and event capacity limits as Omicron variant spreads  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Starting on Monday, indoor gatherings will be restricted to one household plus 10 other individuals or one additional household if everyone is vaccinated against COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Ontario has put in capacity restrictions for various venues effective midnight tonight. A couple hours prior to that, the City of Ottawa put their own restrictions in place- at that time not yet having information about what the province was about to do.

This wave is gonna break on all of us at once. Really bad numbers out of Quebec today, including 35 more in hospital and 12 more in ICU on top of 62 in ICU yesterday- that's a relatively huge ICU jump. Ontario isn't seeing ICU increases yet, but Quebec seems to be a bit ahead of us in case growth. The Atlantic provinces are all seeing spikes, with NS, NB, and PEI seeing record rates of new cases. Manitoba is starting to curve up, though Alberta and Sask aren't yet. Nationally, a spike in new case rates is very evident,. and we will probably surpass previous record daily cases this coming week.

Importantly, the most populated provinces - meaning those with the most ICU beds - are all seeing the same thing happening at once. If the increased cases does in fact turn into more hospitalizations and critical care (and Quebec may be an early harbinger of that)... Yeah. Could suck.

Watch Britain and Denmark, and keep an eye on if we start seeing notable increases in ICU admission there. They're probably the best bellweathers for us right now in terms of similar populations, vaccination uptake, public health approaches, and the stage they're at WRT Omicron spread.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The downside of restrictions is that they draw out the duration of each wave.  We can't get inside the virus's "decision cycle" and choke off the opportunity for the next mutation to emerge.  We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.


----------



## kev994

Czech_pivo said:


> Once Omicron rips through society in the next 8-10 weeks and if no other variants comes along, our spring and summer ‘should’ be much better.


We can hope, but the continuous volleys of variants is the problem. And if Omicron is that much more contagious, then in my non-expert opinion it would have more chances to mutate given that there’s more of it….


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> The downside of restrictions is that they draw out the duration of each wave.  We can't get inside the virus's "decision cycle" and choke off the opportunity for the next mutation to emerge.  We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.


I don't think that would be realistic. We cannot effectively firewall the older and more vulnerable populations. Way too many multigenerational households, family dinners, birthdays and other sundry celebrations... Plus- who's working in the care homes and hospitals?

You can't designate a pissing corner in the pool and expect the piss to stay there.

Longer duration waves mean less point-in-time impact on ICUs. Remember, Ontario avoided ICU triage (narrowly) _because we did things we needed to do_. We accepted significant restrictions on contacts and mobility, brought our interpersonal contacts way down, and by a hair managed to avoid people dying for lack of available care. We might have had a very little bit of opportunity to offload patients, but not much. And we won't have any this time round if it goes that way. Exponential growth gets shittier and shitter with every day it continues. A breach in capacity would have the potential to not edge over capacity limits, but to blow right through.

I'm not saying there's a good solution to this problem set. We're still probably a week or two away from knowing how bad this particular variant is. Sniffles and headaches don't matter. Ventilators do.


----------



## kev994

Brad Sallows said:


> The downside of restrictions is that they draw out the duration of each wave.  We can't get inside the virus's "decision cycle" and choke off the opportunity for the next mutation to emerge.  We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.


Sweden tried that at first, I don’t think it worked. Wikipedia link


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I'm not saying there's a good solution to this problem set.



Maybe the path we're on is in fact it, although it involves "hope".  Keep weathering the waves and "hope" that eventually the CFR is equivalent to bad flu.  Then confront the obvious: it's not worse than flu; can we stop restrictions now?


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> Maybe the path we're on is in fact it, although it involves "hope".  Keep weathering the waves and "hope" that eventually the CFR is equivalent to bad flu.  Then confront the obvious: it's not worse than flu; can we stop restrictions now?


If COVID were to mutate such that CFR came down to being equivalent with Flu, that would be a very good thing. But it's also still much more virulent, so still spreading faster.

Alas, a comparable CFR is not yet even close to being the case.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It doesn't help that "we" can't pick a number somewhere between CFR-flu and CFR-1st-COVID and say, "That's it. When we reach that, it's good enough".


----------



## FJAG

brihard said:


> Watch Britain and Denmark, and keep an eye on if we start seeing notable increases in ICU admission there. They're probably the best bellweathers for us right now in terms of similar populations, vaccination uptake, public health approaches, and the stage they're at WRT Omicron spread.


The situation in Britain as of now is here:



> Number of people in hospital with Omicron variant rises by 20 to 85 and cases rise by 69% in a day with another 10,059 infections recorded​
> Hospital admissions in England for Omicron variant* increased by 31 per cent*
> *Number of deaths in country of people with variant has risen from one to seven*
> *Confirmed Omicron cases in England stood at 23,168, up 9,427 on previous day*
> *It comes as a Sage adviser warns UK should go into lockdown before Christmas*





> Number of people in hospital with Omicron variant rises by 20 to 85
> 
> 
> Hospital admissions in England for people with confirmed or suspected Omicron rose to 85, from 65, said the UK Health Security Agency, while the number of deaths has risen from one to seven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk



The article does not address the issue of what ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated is for the hospitalizations. This article, however, put this forward:



> Having two vaccinations or Covid previously gives Britons 'very little' protection from the virus - but they will still have 85-90 percent protection from serious illness, he added.
> 
> 'From a public health perspective it means we expect immunity people have built up over the last 12 months to be better preserved against severe disease than against infection. If you've been infected before or only had two doses of the vaccine you have very little protection against being infected with Omicron.
> 
> 'But the protection against severe disease should hold up well. Perhaps 85-90 percent protection. The challenge we face with a very large epidemic on the way is even that level of protection against severe disease is not perfect and the very large case numbers may still translate into very large numbers of hospitalisations.'





> UK records a 67% rise in Covid cases with another 90,418 infections
> 
> 
> The number of coronavirus cases has risen by 36,345 or 67 per cent in seven days while experts call for a two-week ban on household mixing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk



The photos of mostly maskless crowds explains a lot.

🍻


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:


> The downside of restrictions is that they draw out the duration of each wave.  We can't get inside the virus's "decision cycle" and choke off the opportunity for the next mutation to emerge.  We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.


I've expressed this opinion elsewhere and if you disagree so be it. 

We, particularly in North America (USA and Canada) put a such a very high price on human life to the point it cripples us from taking action and making hard decisions. 

Rip me apart if you will.


----------



## kev994

OldSolduer said:


> I've expressed this opinion elsewhere and if you disagree so be it.
> 
> We, particularly in North America (USA and Canada) put a such a very high price on human life to the point it cripples us from taking action and making hard decisions.
> 
> Rip me apart if you will.


You can give yours away, I’m going to try to keep mine. 🍺


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> It doesn't help that "we" can't pick a number somewhere between CFR-flu and CFR-1st-COVID and say, "That's it. When we reach that, it's good enough".


It’s not about CFR anyway, it’s about hospital capacity.



OldSolduer said:


> I've expressed this opinion elsewhere and if you disagree so be it.
> 
> We, particularly in North America (USA and Canada) put a such a very high price on human life to the point it cripples us from taking action and making hard decisions.
> 
> Rip me apart if you will.



That’s not a bug, that’s a feature. As a society we’re sufficiently economically and socially resilient to not have to just roll over and let a new virus kill a whole ton of people (at least not this one). We are not societally tolerant of the culling of humans.

I’m currently sitting in the car staying warm while mom and stepdad get their booster. Both have medical vulnerabilities. I hope to see them stick around a while longer.


----------



## ModlrMike

Brad Sallows said:


> We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.


It's not the stomach, it's the capacity.

Canada's population is 38M, with those under 44 years old representing about 55% or 21M.

If just 20% of that group gets infected, and then 10% of that group requires hospitalization, that's nearly 100000 additional hospital beds required. I don't think we have that capacity. Granted, I pulled some of those percentages out of the air, but I'm low balling my expectations.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:


> ... We haven't tried letting a wave blast through the younger and more active/exposed (<50) population while protecting the vulnerable sub-groups.  Not sure we have the stomach to risk it, though.





OldSolduer said:


> We, particularly in North America (USA and Canada) put a such a very high price on human life to the point it *cripples us from taking action and making hard decisions.*


Maybe, but be careful what you wish for.  

Some on these threads have suggested or pointed out that restriction, say, the more vulnerable alone and letting everyone else do their thing would make sense.  Where do we draw the line @ vulnerable?  Age?  Medical condition?  

According to this source, about 9 out of 10 deaths in Canada from COVID were people 60 and older, about 8/10 people were 70+ and 6/10 were 80+. 

Where do we draw a line, then?  

At what age/criteria do we start protecting the vulnerable (and what that protection would mean) while allowing everyone else to carry on?  
What is an acceptable death rate we should live with to let the herd roam free?
Anyone care to volunteer one of their loved ones to die if they could have been saved, all for the good of humanity?  Or volunteer themselves?
This is why we can't stomach these kinds of decisions - like someone smarter than me said,


brihard said:


> ... As a society we’re sufficiently economically and socially resilient to not have to just roll over and let a new virus kill a whole ton of people (at least not this one). We are not societally tolerant of the culling of humans ...


----------



## Brad Sallows

It's not just about what we can easily see.  We have no effective way of measuring and comparing different harms (virus versus virus mitigation).


----------



## FJAG

The Bread Guy said:


> Maybe, but be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Some on these threads have suggested or pointed out that restriction, say, the more vulnerable alone and letting everyone else do their thing would make sense.  Where do we draw the line @ vulnerable?  Age?  Medical condition?
> 
> According to this source, about 9 out of 10 deaths in Canada from COVID were people 60 and older, about 8/10 people were 70+ and 6/10 were 80+.
> 
> Where do we draw a line, then?
> 
> At what age/criteria do we start protecting the vulnerable (and what that protection would mean) while allowing everyone else to carry on?
> What is an acceptable death rate we should live with to let the herd roam free?
> Anyone care to volunteer one of their loved ones to die if they could have been saved, all for the good of humanity?  Or volunteer themselves?
> This is why we can't stomach these kinds of decisions - like someone smarter than me said,


Since I'm just over 70, I suggest we draw the line at 75. However, in another year or two I suggest that the line be redrawn at 80.

😉


----------



## kev994

Open letter from a bunch of Drs in Manitoba sums it up.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> You can't designate a pissing corner in the pool and expect the piss to stay there.


That is going in the book!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The Bread Guy said:


> Maybe, but be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Some on these threads have suggested or pointed out that restriction, say, the more vulnerable alone and letting everyone else do their thing would make sense.  Where do we draw the line @ vulnerable?  Age?  Medical condition?
> 
> According to this source, about 9 out of 10 deaths in Canada from COVID were people 60 and older, about 8/10 people were 70+ and 6/10 were 80+.
> 
> Where do we draw a line, then?
> 
> At what age/criteria do we start protecting the vulnerable (and what that protection would mean) while allowing everyone else to carry on?
> What is an acceptable death rate we should live with to let the herd roam free?
> Anyone care to volunteer one of their loved ones to die if they could have been saved, all for the good of humanity?  Or volunteer themselves?
> This is why we can't stomach these kinds of decisions - like someone smarter than me said,


People literally make these decisions all the time. Doctors in Palliative Care Wards make these decisions almost daily.

I lost two of my grand parents during this Pandemic.  Both went to the hospital and died there.  We couldn't really even visit them because of COVID precautions.  I would have loved to have seen my grandmothers body one last time before they cremated her, but instead I had to watch a funeral on Zoom.

Both had DNR if they were too far gone.  My Grandfather had severe Alzheimers, had ripped his two front teeth out and didn't know who he was or where he was when he finally passed away.

He had an infection and internal bleeding and was unconscious for days due to lack of bloodflow before he died.  Do you want to know how the hospital lets old people die?  They stop giving them fluid.  You can go weeks without food, but water?  If you are sick and don't get fluid, death is very quick.

Dying sucks but it's also a natural part of living.  I miss my Grandfather but he was no longer living, the body was there but the mind was totally gone.  

What's my point?  People die every second of the day for any number of reasons.  Someone is dying right now.  Thinking we can control it is our biggest flaw.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Good post;  sorry for your loss of 2 grandparents.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Condolences on the loss of about your grandparents, HB.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> *People* literally make these decisions all the time. Doctors in Palliative Care Wards make these decisions almost daily.


You're right & I can't argue with that.  Docs & other medical professionals are making these decisions for other individuals all the time, and people are dying of all sorts of things all the time, all sad.

I see people talking about _"we"_ may need to make tough decisions, but don't have the stomach.  Unless I read this incorrectly - and I stand to be corrected - I read that as governments.

How many _governments_, though, would be willing to draw the lines through policy or law, based on those questions?  

And how many people are willing to _trust_ and/or _allow_ their _governments_ these days (provincial or federal) to draw those lines for the greater good?


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> Open letter from a bunch of Drs in Manitoba sums it up.
> 
> "The Omicron variant has arrived and will rip through low vaccinated communities at an unprecedented speed"



Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Everyone had their chance to get vaccinated, I hope they enjoy their freedoms when buried 6ft under. This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated. 

Meanwhile in Alberta with restrictions and hospitalizations easing, the media is trying really hard to push for the mandatory booster shot and double masking.





__





						Active COVID-19 cases rise in Alberta as other provinces announce restrictions  | Globalnews.ca
					

Ontario, Manitoba and B.C. announced tightened COVID restrictions Friday, including capacity limits on venues and indoor gatherings.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

kev994 said:


> Open letter from a bunch of Drs in Manitoba sums it up.
> 
> "..., the bed will be assigned to the one with the best chance of survival, *regardless of COVID-19 or vaccination status*."



*Sigh


----------



## daftandbarmy

I say... Jolly good luck chaps. Us too....


Britain reports 10,000 new Omicron cases, ‘major incident’ declared in London​
Britain reported a surge in cases of the Omicron coronavirus variant on Saturday which government advisors said could be just the tip of the iceberg, and London’s mayor declared a “major incident” to help the city’s hospitals cope.

The total number of Omicron cases recorded across the country hit almost 25,000 as of 1800 GMT on Friday, up by more than 10,000 cases from 24 hours earlier, the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) said.

Seven people believed to have had the Omicron variant had died as of Thursday, up from one death in the UKHSA’s previous data which ran up to Tuesday. Hospitalizations of people thought to have the variant increased to 85 from 65.

The government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies said it was “almost certain” that hundreds of thousands of people were being infected with the variant every day.

Britain reports 10,000 new Omicron cases, ‘major incident’ declared in London - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated.



From what I have read, they can not be denied emergency medical services.

But, it may impact their health insurance.




__





						unvaccinated "health insurance" - Google Search
					





					www.google.com
				




And death benefits,




__





						unvaccinated "death benefits" - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Everyone had their chance to get vaccinated, I hope they enjoy their freedoms when buried 6ft under. This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated.



That’s pretty fuckin harsh man.  They are still Canadians with the same rights as anyone else.  

But…’it’s the season for some I guess?


----------



## Quirky

Eye In The Sky said:


> That’s pretty fuckin harsh man.  They are still Canadians with the same rights as anyone else.



I expect all antivaxers to follow this guy's lead:

Anti-Vaccine Cartoonist Ben Garrison Says He's Got Covid-19, Won't Go to Hospital

If you don't trust medicine, there is absolutely no reason to go to hospital for help.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Not trusting a vaccine, or even all vaccines, is not distrusting all medical care, or even merely all medications and formulations.

People in authority can't demand trust.  They have to demonstrate trustworthy behaviour.  Some people have a low threshold for flipping from trust to distrust and a high threshold for flipping from distrust to trust.  People in authority have to function in that space.  "Experts" simply don't enjoy the luxury of f*cking around with the truth when it suits them.  Nor do they enjoy the luxury of ignoring "only a few bad apples" in their midst.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Not trusting a vaccine, or even all vaccines, is not distrusting all medical care, or even merely all medications and formulations.
> 
> People in authority can't demand trust.  They have to demonstrate trustworthy behaviour.  Some people have a low threshold for flipping from trust to distrust and a high threshold for flipping from distrust to trust.  People in authority have to function in that space.  "Experts" simply don't enjoy the luxury of f*cking around with the truth when it suits them.  Nor do they enjoy the luxury of ignoring "only a few bad apples" in their midst.


pandemic would be over tomorrow if the unvaccinated were not allowed to take up hospital beds for the vaccinated.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> I expect all antivaxers to follow this guy's lead:
> 
> Anti-Vaccine Cartoonist Ben Garrison Says He's Got Covid-19, Won't Go to Hospital
> 
> If you don't trust medicine, there is absolutely no reason to go to hospital for help.



Ya?   And the “buried 6 feet under” part;  really?   I’ve read some arsehole comments on here but that one wins the prize.   WTF is wrong with you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> pandemic would be over tomorrow if the unvaccinated were not allowed to take up hospital beds for the vaccinated.



That’s not at all true.  Vaccinated people still carry and spread the virus.  

You guys start wearing your brown shirts yet when you go out or….waiting awhile for that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Quirky said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Everyone had their chance to get vaccinated, I hope they enjoy their freedoms when buried 6ft under.* This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated.*
> 
> Meanwhile in Alberta with restrictions and hospitalizations easing, the media is trying really hard to push for the mandatory booster shot and double masking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Active COVID-19 cases rise in Alberta as other provinces announce restrictions  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Ontario, Manitoba and B.C. announced tightened COVID restrictions Friday, including capacity limits on venues and indoor gatherings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Now that we have denied them treatment, what do we do with all the unvaccinated spreaders you've left on the street? Quarantine facilities? Really, what's your plan?  What happens when an unvaccinated person gets hit by a car and shows at the ER in and ambulance?  
This is exactly what I've been speaking about. I rest my case. Gotta go collect my donated tinfoil at the post office.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> I say... Jolly good luck chaps. Us too....
> 
> 
> Britain reports 10,000 new Omicron cases, ‘major incident’ declared in London​
> Britain reported a surge in cases of the Omicron coronavirus variant on Saturday which government advisors said could be just the tip of the iceberg, and London’s mayor declared a “major incident” to help the city’s hospitals cope.
> 
> The total number of Omicron cases recorded across the country hit almost 25,000 as of 1800 GMT on Friday, up by more than 10,000 cases from 24 hours earlier, the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) said.
> 
> Seven people believed to have had the Omicron variant had died as of Thursday, up from one death in the UKHSA’s previous data which ran up to Tuesday. Hospitalizations of people thought to have the variant increased to 85 from 65.
> 
> The government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies said it was “almost certain” that hundreds of thousands of people were being infected with the variant every day.
> 
> Britain reports 10,000 new Omicron cases, ‘major incident’ declared in London - National | Globalnews.ca


Just for the sake of clarity, that’s cases that have been sequenced for Omicron specifically. Britain had just under 83,000 today. Lower than yesterday, but Sunday, Monday and Tuesday numbers tend to skew low due to testing patterns. With their population that’s as if we had 45,000 cases.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Everyone had their chance to get vaccinated, I hope they enjoy their freedoms when buried 6ft under. This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated.
> 
> Meanwhile in Alberta with restrictions and hospitalizations easing, the media is trying really hard to push for the mandatory booster shot and double masking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Active COVID-19 cases rise in Alberta as other provinces announce restrictions  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Ontario, Manitoba and B.C. announced tightened COVID restrictions Friday, including capacity limits on venues and indoor gatherings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Yeah, no. This is Canada. You get medical care, full stop. The drunk driver who wrecks his car and gets extricated still gets medical treatment. There are consequences for choices, but we don’t triage life saving medical care by what brought you in there.

I may not like the choices that people make, and the burdens they impose on others in doing so, but an ethical line has to be drawn on certain things, and that’s one. We have chosen as a society to hard wire that into our medical system. The system does medicine, whatever it is that brings someone there.

Your particular flavour of ugly extremism on this doesn’t help the discourse at all.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> Now that we have denied them treatment, what do we do with all the unvaccinated spreaders you've left on the street? Quarantine facilities? Really, what's your plan?  What happens when an unvaccinated person gets hit by a car and shows at the ER in and ambulance?
> This is exactly what I've been speaking about. I rest my case. Gotta go collect my donated tinfoil at the post office.


Why do you think Quirky has the power to enact this or has any say in the pandemic response?  His brand of crazy is no more acceptable to society than the other side’s brand of crazy.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> Why do you think Quirky has the power to enact this or has any say in the pandemic response?  His brand of crazy is no more acceptable to society than the other side’s brand of crazy.



What 'brand' is the opposite of wishing that innocent people would just eff off and die?

Whatever that is, I'm in.


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:


> What 'brand' is the opposite of wishing that innocent people would just eff off and die?
> 
> Whatever that is, I'm in.


And that is the extreme.  Wishing unvaccinated would die or being denied medical aid.  No different than the anti lock down, freedom loving extremists who would just let this thing roll through the population to cull the weak and old so they can exercise their “rights”.

As Brihard said, this is Canada.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> That’s not at all true.  Vaccinated people still carry and spread the virus.
> 
> You guys start wearing your brown shirts yet when you go out or….waiting awhile for that.


They carry and spread the virus, but they don't get as sick which means less people in hospital. 

take the unvaccinated out of hospitals and we have enough capacity, problem solved.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> They carry and spread the virus, but they don't get as sick which means less people in hospital.
> 
> take the unvaccinated out of hospitals and we have enough capacity, problem solved.



Take the smokers and obese people who are vaccinated and keep them out of the hospitals.  They’re also making bad choices that negatively impact the health care system.

Eat processed meats?  Sorry - you’re also banned.   Any other form of avoidable CAD?  Sorry.

Don’t eat the Food guide recommended serving of vegetables and fruit?  Sorry - out you go. 

I guess all we have to do is ban anyone who makes bad lifestyle choices.  Problem solved.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> Why do you think Quirky has the power to enact this or has any say in the pandemic response?  His brand of crazy is no more acceptable to society than the other side’s brand of crazy.


I'm interested in his thinking. Unlike many that just want to accept and be quiet, I want discussion. He made a statement to socially abandon the unvaxxed. I just wondered if he'd thought it out fully or if it was just a flippant vaxx zealot talking point. No one person has the power to enact anything, however millions of like minded thinkers do. I've had my stance questioned here by many. Some were good thoughtful questions that led to some good discussion. Other are those that disagree and offer ridicule and eye poking in exchange. I have a pointed head and rounded shoulders due to my tinfoil. That shit kinda rolls right off me.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> pandemic would be over tomorrow if the unvaccinated were not allowed to take up hospital beds for the vaccinated.



The pandemic isn't mainly spreading in the hospitals.

The less-vaccinated, unable-to-pay-some-people-to-stay-home underdeveloped regions of the world are going to be able to keep producing and throwing variants at us longer than we can afford to keep spending money we don't really have.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> Take the smokers and obese people who are vaccinated and keep them out of the hospitals.  They’re also making bad choices that negatively impact the health care system.
> 
> Eat processed meats?  Sorry - you’re also banned.   Any other form of avoidable CAD?  Sorry.
> 
> Don’t eat the Food guide recommended serving of vegetables and fruit?  Sorry - out you go.
> 
> I guess all we have to do is ban anyone who makes bad lifestyle choices.  Problem solved.


Agreed.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Eye In The Sky said:


> That’s not at all true.  Vaccinated people still carry and spread the virus.
> 
> You guys start wearing your brown shirts yet when you go out or….waiting awhile for that.


The point to remember about the vaccinated carrying the Delta and other previous variants is that they had a much much lower R factor in terms of transmission to others vs the unvaccinated. So, in reality, higher number of vaccinated people leads to a much lower R factor vs low number of vaccinated, which in turn can lead to a virus dying out over time.


----------



## Kilted

As this gets worse I wonder if discussions about the notwithstanding clause with regards to vaccines will occur.  New Brunswick was considering it prior to Covid,


----------



## Remius

Kilted said:


> As this gets worse I wonder if discussions about the notwithstanding clause with regards to vaccines will occur.  New Brunswick was considering it prior to Covid,


I would imagine all options would be on the table depending on how bad it would get.


----------



## brihard

Kilted said:


> As this gets worse I wonder if discussions about the notwithstanding clause with regards to vaccines will occur.  New Brunswick was considering it prior to Covid,


In what context? If you mean compulsory vaccines, not a chance. That would be a hard line in the sand for a lot of people, including those they would rely on to actually carry such a plan out. Plus, invoking S.33 doesn’t negate professional medical ethics. Medical practitioners would not be allowed to compulsorily vaccinate without patient consent.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Quirky said:


> ... This pandemic won't end until the hospital doors are closed to the unvaccinated ...


Although this is sorta-kinda what Singapore is doing, and although a lot of folks like Singapore for their caning of some miscreants, maybe we shouldn't race toward the worst possible approaches?

 Just like I've asked those promoting a "let it run free and let people die while the herd immunizes" if they were willing to say, out loud, an  acceptable casualty rate, I'd have to ask you what you consider an acceptable casualty rate for your solution.


----------



## McG

Kilted said:


> As this gets worse I wonder if discussions about the notwithstanding clause with regards to vaccines will occur.  New Brunswick was considering it prior to Covid,


If politicians are confident that the vaccine is demonstrably universally necessary for society then they should not believe the notwithstanding clause to be necessary.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> That would be a hard line in the sand for a lot of people, including those they would rely on to actually carry such a plan out.



I don't think people are going to be pinned down and assaulted with needles but why not put people on house arrest until they get vaccinated, 'for the greater good'?


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> I don't think people are going to be pinned down and assaulted with needles but why not put people on house arrest until they get vaccinated, 'for the greater good'?


I absolutely cannot see that getting enforced.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> I absolutely cannot see that getting enforced.


Of course not.  But the alarmists are predicting this could happen because it would confirm their fears are founded.  

No one is going to be forced by law and authority to get vaccinated.   Our rates are actually pretty good.  Not perfect but getting there. 

Mandates in certain sectors and for certain things that the feds or provincial gets have jurisdiction in.  Where people can choose to walk away or comply until we get through this.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Kilted said:


> As this gets worse I wonder if discussions about the notwithstanding clause with regards to vaccines will occur.  New Brunswick was considering it prior to Covid,


Funny you should mention that - this, federally, at least about a different, but still constitutionally sticky wicket ....


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau shares his late father's disdain for the constitutional "notwithstanding clause" and he's not ruling out asking the Supreme Court to weigh in on Quebec's pre-emptive use of it to trample the rights of religious minorities.
> 
> In a year-end interview with the Ottawa bureau of The Canadian Press, Trudeau said the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is supposed to be "a bulwark against popular measures that attack the rights of … minorities."
> 
> But the charter's notwithstanding clause allows a government to say, "regardless of the fact that we are attacking your fundamental rights or limiting your fundamental rights, and the charter says that's wrong, we're still going to go ahead and do it."
> 
> "It's basically a loophole that allows a majority to override fundamental rights of a minority. And that's why I agree with my father that it's not a great thing to have in a Charter of Rights and Freedoms." ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> I absolutely cannot see that getting enforced.


Seems like a stretch of the imagination for sure but people will justify quite a bit when they're afraid or worried about their own survival. What happens if the variant after Omicron is worse than all the previous ones combined? Young adults start dropping and people become desperate?



Remius said:


> No one is going to be forced by law and authority to get vaccinated.


That's the beauty of it. No one would say they have to get vaccinated. Maybe they just can't be in public without it, no one is forcing them.


I think "the government would _never_ do that" is a pretty flimsy safety blanket. I honesty don't think they would either, but I wouldn't put money on that.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Of course not.  But the alarmists are predicting this could happen because it would confirm their fears are founded.
> 
> No one is going to be forced by law and authority to get vaccinated.   Our rates are actually pretty good.  Not perfect but getting there.
> 
> Mandates in certain sectors and for certain things that the feds or provincial gets have jurisdiction in.  Where people can choose to walk away or comply until we get through this.


I don't know why anyone goes this route. 

Simply make treatment for covid dependent on having the vaccine. 

This is about the shit healthcare system we have in Canada and the bare bones capacity we have. In order to protect the capacity for those who actually did their part to protect themselves from covid, exclude those that did not. Call it triage and go from there. 

As for those who get sick with covid and are unvaccinated, well...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> As for those who get sick with covid and are unvaccinated, well...


Along with suicide attempts, drug overdose's and so on right?


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Along with suicide attempts, drug overdose's and so on right?


If those were standing in between people, vaccinated or not, and cancer treatments, health screenings, surgeries, and all the other things that are part and parcel of a healthy populace, yes. 

Thankfully, they don't tend to, but if they did my stance would be the same. How many people have had really important surgeries or treatments pushed back, and perhaps died already because an unvaccinated person was taking up a hospital bed, taking up hospital resources?


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I don't know why anyone goes this route.
> 
> Simply make treatment for covid dependent on having the vaccine.
> 
> This is about the shit healthcare system we have in Canada and the bare bones capacity we have. In order to protect the capacity for those who actually did their part to protect themselves from covid, exclude those that did not. Call it triage and go from there.
> 
> As for those who get sick with covid and are unvaccinated, well...


That isn’t triage as defined by our medical system. 

The irony of you using a Russian bad guy hopped up on Roids is not lost on me.  I’m sure if the Soviets were still around they would say and do that.  Luckily we aren’t them.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> That isn’t triage as defined by our medical system.
> 
> The irony of you using a Russian bad guy hopped up on Roids is not lost on me.  I’m sure if the Soviets were still around they would say and do that.  Luckily we aren’t them.


Here's the thing, someone is going to die. 

Someone waiting for cancer treatment is going to die. Or a unvaccinated person is going to die. 

With the way the system is set up, it's those who have long planned surgeries and treatments for serious ailments who are dying, while unvaccinated people are taking up hospital beds, ventilators, and hospital staff. 

That's the choice being made right now. I would prefer the opposite.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I can't believe how drastic we are willing to get, how divisive we have become; and how easily we can throw each other away over a virus with a what ? Something like a 97 or 99% survival rate.


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> I can't believe how drastic we are willing to get, how divisive we have become; and how easily we can throw each other away over a virus with a what ? Something like a 97 or 99% survival rate.


Part of that survival rate is someone in a hospital bed for 3 weeks meaning someone who needs life changing or life saving surgery has to wait many more months for treatment which could lead to them dying or having a significantly worst quality of life.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> Part of that survival rate is someone in a hospital bed for 3 weeks meaning someone who needs life changing or life saving surgery has to wait many more months for treatment which could lead to them dying or having a significantly worst quality of life.



Being elderly or having a swath of comorbidities, sure.  

Perhaps this virus should have been worse so we might actually have something to fear. 

The real problem isn't the unvaccinated it's complacent Canadians who: (1) see our single payer system as sacrosanct and won't acknowledged it's deeply flawed and needs privatization; and (2) we elect shitty politicians who are willing to let it stay that way for votes.


----------



## blacktriangle

Halifax Tar said:


> I can't believe how drastic we are willing to get, how divisive we have become; and how easily we can throw each other away over a virus with a what ? Something like a 97 or 99% survival rate.


This. 

And don't for a second think that our adversaries haven't been taking notes.


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> Being elderly or having a swath of comorbidities, sure.
> 
> Perhaps this virus should have been worse so we might actually have something to fear.
> 
> The real problem isn't the unvaccinated it's complacent Canadians who: (1) see our single payer system as sacrosanct and won't acknowledged it's deeply flawed and needs privatization; and (2) we elect shitty politicians who are willing to let it stay that way for votes.


Of course you're right, but the reality is the crap healthcare system we have is the crap healthcare system we have and by trying to save one group its leading to deaths in other groups, and so far the group we are dedicated to saving is the group that has its head in the sand thinking vaccinates are evil or whatever their reason, and the groups we are sacrificing are those who may or may not be vaccinated, but based on the levels of vaccinations in the country, are more than likely vaccinated, who need the hospital resources the unvaccinated are taking up. 

People can think me evil, saying that the unvaccinated should be forced to stay home and use ivermectin or whatever else they think will work instead of vaccines and let those who did get vaccinated get their surgeries, their treatments. That's fine. What those people are  saying is that they are fully willing to let those vaccinated (or not) people who need to those treatments die to protect those who didn't get the vaccine.


----------



## Altair

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-cancer-invasive-surgery-1.6142481
		




> Kathleen Morley says doctors were supposed to be watching her 76-year-old mother's small, benign lung nodule when Ontario announced its first COVID-19 lockdown and many non-essential medical procedures were deferred.
> 
> By February of this year, her annual CT scan showed that during that year of delay, what was a small nodule turned into metastatic lung cancer.
> 
> If it had been caught early, Morley says, it's possible her mom, Joyce, could have been cured with a simple lobectomy.
> 
> But that's no longer the case. Joyce Kohut is now terminal and requires radiation to the bones and strong chemotherapy — a more invasive treatment.
> 
> "I'm always going to wonder whether she'd gone for the scan, if that [would have] made a difference," said Morley, a long-term care nurse in Hamilton.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/first-person-cancer-treatment-pandemic-delays-isolation-1.6271626
		




> A cancer diagnosis is brutal at the best of times, let alone at the start of a pandemic. Yet people still seem surprised by how the timing of my diagnosis affected my treatment.
> 
> Surely, they think, a life-threatening tumour would push me to the front of the line.
> 
> The reality is that we're still digging out of a backlog of elective surgeries that were cancelled before we understood how this virus worked. That term "elective" is deceptive; cancer surgery is not "elective" like a class in school. It just means you likely won't die if surgery happens on Thursday instead of Tuesday unlike a burst appendix.











						Secondary losses: The impact of the pandemic on Canadians with cancer - Healthy Debate
					






					healthydebate.ca
				






> It was early in the course of the pandemic that projections began emerging around the concept of “deaths secondary to COVID,” a term to describe people who died from cancer or other diseases that could have been cured if the pandemic had not stressed health systems. Risk factors for secondary loss include delayed cancer detection; delays in surgery or other treatments; and poor management of treatment side effects.
> 
> Focusing on early diagnosis of breast, colorectal, esophageal and lung cancers, a group of U.K. researchers estimated that diagnostic delays would lead to nearly 4,000 deaths within five years there. In a 2020 research review in the BMJ, the researchers estimated, conservatively, that a surgical delay of 12 weeks for all patients with breast cancer for one year would lead to 1,400 excess deaths in the U.K. and 700 in Canada.











						Canada's surgery backlog heightens inequities in health care: advocacy group
					

A health-care advocacy group says an increase in Canadians travelling to other countries for medical treatment reflects how inefficiently and ineffectively provinces have organized their surgical care.




					www.cp24.com
				







> EDMONTON - A health-care advocacy group says an increase in Canadians travelling to other countries for medical treatment reflects how inefficiently and ineffectively provinces have organized their surgical care.
> 
> Steven Staples with the Canadian Health Coalition says he's not surprised that the Nordorthopaedics Clinic in Kaunas, Lithuania, has reported a 50 per cent increase in Canadian patients during the COVID-19 pandemic.
> 
> “You can understand people wanting to do everything they can to get treatment,” said Staples, who is the coalition's national director of policy and advocacy.
> 
> “Increasingly people can't get access to the public health care system. We know that it's women and people in marginalized or racialized communities who don't have the money to buy private care, while people who are wealthy can get necessary health care.”
> 
> Nordorthopaedics Clinic said in a news release a majority of its patients are coming from Alberta, where about 15,000 surgeries were delayed at the peak of the pandemic's fourth wave. Health Minister Jason Copping has said 30,000 surgeries were delayed during the first three waves.



You guys are all okay with these people dying. 

Cool. 

Sounds cold blooded to me, but nah, must just be me.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> You guys are all okay with these people dying.
> 
> Cool.
> 
> Sounds cold blooded to me, but nah, must just be me.


nobody is cool with anybody dying except you right now.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> Of course you're right, but the reality is the crap healthcare system we have is the crap healthcare system we have and by trying to save one group its leading to deaths in other groups, and so far the group we are dedicated to saving is the group that has its head in the sand thinking vaccinates are evil or whatever their reason, and the groups we are sacrificing are those who may or may not be vaccinated, but based on the levels of vaccinations in the country, are more than likely vaccinated, who need the hospital resources the unvaccinated are taking up.
> 
> People can think me evil, saying that the unvaccinated should be forced to stay home and use ivermectin or whatever else they think will work instead of vaccines and let those who did get vaccinated get their surgeries, their treatments. That's fine. What those people are  saying is that they are fully willing to let those vaccinated (or not) people who need to those treatments die to protect those who didn't get the vaccine.



I don't think I should be able to force anyone to curtail their life because I am afraid of barely lethal virus.  

I see it the other way.  If you're scared stay home.  Or venture out in your desired CBRN level of gear; but life must go on.

People die my brother, we all die.  And again trying to blame the shitty state of our HCS on the unvaxxed is disingenuous and misses the fact complacency and shitty politics is why we are here.  The unvaxxed or this virus are just pulling the curtain back..


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> nobody is cool with anybody dying except you right now.


But you prioritize those sick with covid, more than likely unvaccinated, over these people. 

You wont come out and say it, but that's what it is.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Halifax Tar said:


> The real problem isn't the unvaccinated ...


There's more than one cause to the COVID mess, but vaccinations are an issue we can fix (obviously not easily or seamlessly) now, not elections from now.


Halifax Tar said:


> it's complacent Canadians who: (1) see our single payer system as sacrosanct and won't acknowledged it's deeply flawed and *needs privatization*


For someone who doesn't trust big business when it comes to vaccines, you seem to have more trust in the private sector (which has often shown to increase prices when demand is higher - e.g., generators during power outages, vaccines during pandemics, etc.) providing health care.


Halifax Tar said:


> (2) we elect shitty politicians who are willing to let it stay that way for votes.


In Ontario, I've seen Team Red governments promise more in health care & not deliver, and I've seen Team Blue governments promise cuts to hospital beds while saying more home care was to come, and only follow through on the first bit.  And Team Orange governments across Canada have had chances to fix things with (based on capacity issues everywhere) less than great results.  So we've tried all three main brands, with less than stellar results, indeed.

Then again, are taxpayers willing to pay more to staff empty hospital beds when things are ticking along without weird health things going on, just in case they're needed? Don't know. There IS a _"Yes, Minister"_ episode about that, though


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think I should be able to force anyone to curtail their life because I am afraid of barely lethal virus.
> 
> I see it the other way.  If you're scared stay home.  Or venture out in your desired CBRN level of gear; but life must go on.
> 
> People die my brother, we all die.  And again trying to blame the shitty state of our HCS on the unvaxxed is disingenuous and misses the fact complacency and shitty politics is why we are here.  The unvaxxed or this virus is just pulling the curtain back..











						'More deserted than a church': questions linger about cancer care backlog
					

Maritime health officials admit the COVID-19 pandemic did have a significant impact on cancer screening and surgeries, but say the backlog is clearing up. Advocates, though, aren't so sure.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca
				






> "Urgent, emergency, and time-sensitive cancer surgeries and procedures also continued during all three waves of COVID-19. There were some delays for patients needing some cancer-related surgeries, but patients were prioritized based on clinical need. Cancer screening programs and access to diagnostic imaging were also reduced during the first wave to free up resources to support the COVID-19 response. We learned valuable lessons during the first wave and were able to lessen these disruptions in waves two and three."
> 
> Hollenhorst states that as of June 30, more than 80 per cent of patients with a known or suspected cancer, who had their surgery cancelled since April 23 for any reason (pandemic related service reduction, patient decline surgery etc.), "have had their surgery completed, have a new surgery date, or have been removed from our surgical wait lists for various reasons."



Vaccines reduce the severity of any illness, and even the likelihood of catching covid.

The unvaccinated could have avoided stressing our shit healthcare system. They didn't. but other than maybe dying, they are not paying the price. 

Those who need cancer treatments, hip replacements, other treatment, they pay the price.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> 'More deserted than a church': questions linger about cancer care backlog
> 
> 
> Maritime health officials admit the COVID-19 pandemic did have a significant impact on cancer screening and surgeries, but say the backlog is clearing up. Advocates, though, aren't so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> atlantic.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccines reduce the severity of any illness, and even the likelihood of catching covid.
> 
> The unvaccinated could have avoided stressing our shit healthcare system. They didn't. but other than maybe dying, they are not paying the price.
> 
> Those who need cancer treatments, hip replacements, other treatment, they pay the price.



Cool my man.


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> Cool my man.


Yes, I imagine you are "cool" with these people dying because they couldn't get their treatments in time. 

We must save the unvaccinated. Anything else would be...divisive....


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> But you prioritize those sick with covid, more than likely unvaccinated, over these people.
> 
> You wont come out and say it, but that's what it is.


No, I don’t make that call.  I don’t prioritize anyone over another.  I’d rather not see anyone die.  I also don’t want to see medical aid denied to anyone.  

We have a triage system that already exists and is managed by the health care world.  

You are choosing one over the other based on what your position currently is, not out of any medical or ethical stand point.  

I am with you about their choice being part of the problem.  I think it’s a selfish position and would like to see everyone vaccinated.  

But I could easily throw the whole thing back at you about the chronic smoker who gets lung cancer taking up a spot and bed that someone who got cancer from crap work conditions.  

It’s not how we do things here.


----------



## Halifax Tar

The Bread Guy said:


> There's more than one cause to the COVID mess, but vaccinations are an issue we can fix (obviously not easily or seamlessly) now, not elections from now.
> 
> For someone who doesn't trust big business when it comes to vaccines, you seem to have more trust in the private sector (which has often shown to increase prices when demand is higher - e.g., generators during power outages, vaccines during pandemics, etc.) providing health care.
> 
> In Ontario, I've seen Team Red governments promise more in health care & not deliver, and I've seen Team Blue governments promise cuts to hospital beds while saying more home care was to come, and only follow through on the first bit.  And Team Orange governments across Canada have had chances to fix things with (based on capacity issues everywhere) less than great results.  So we've tried all three main brands, with less than stellar results, indeed.
> 
> Then again, are taxpayers willing to pay more to staff empty hospital beds when things are ticking along without weird health things going on, just in case they're needed? Don't know. There IS a _"Yes, Minister"_ episode about that, though



HCS: I think supplementing our SPS with some privatization is a a must if we want to fix our HCS.  The private sector has a role to play.

So we agree ?  Canadians suck at paying attention and we continually elect shitty governments ?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Halifax Tar said:


> HCS: I think supplementing our SPS with some privatization is a a must if we want to fix our HCS.  The private sector has a role to play.


With some controls, maybe - I look at the U.S. model as the worst possible way to do it.


Halifax Tar said:


> So we agree ?  Canadians suck at paying attention and we continually elect shitty governments ?


The shitiness can vary, but Canadians not paying attention until it's right in their back yard or back pocket?  Oh yeah - violent agreement now, out ...🥂


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> No, I don’t make that call.  I don’t prioritize anyone over another.  I’d rather not see anyone die.  I also don’t want to see medical aid denied to anyone.


You would rather not, but its what is happening. Triage is happening right now. You need cancer treatment, too bad. You are unvaccinated, and cannot breath? Come on in. 

It's bullshit to call it anything but what it is. Triage, with those who have cancer and other conditions are being left to die.


Remius said:


> We have a triage system that already exists and is managed by the health care world.


And it's currently being implemented in a fashion where we cannot see it, but it's killing people all the same.


Remius said:


> You are choosing one over the other based on what your position currently is, not out of any medical or ethical stand point.


Society and the health care system is already doing that, just in a way that is out of the public eye, but no less deadly to those who got the jab and need to watch as a unvaccinated person sucks on a ventilator while their tumor spreads throughout their body and kills them


Remius said:


> I am with you about their choice being part of the problem.  I think it’s a selfish position and would like to see everyone vaccinated.
> 
> But I could easily throw the whole thing back at you about the chronic smoker who gets lung cancer taking up a spot and bed that someone who got cancer from crap work conditions.
> 
> It’s not how we do things here.


Except its happening right now.


----------



## Remius

Australia toyed with a combined private public health care system with mixed results,


----------



## Altair

And I'll end with this.

We are cowards.

We cannot make this choice so we simply act as if its business as usual, which is a choice, and people die.

People think that someone dying at home without a ventilator is cruel, but are completely fine with some dying at home without chemo.

Cowards.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> If those were standing in between people, vaccinated or not, and cancer treatments, health screenings, surgeries, and all the other things that are part and parcel of a healthy populace, yes.
> 
> Thankfully, they don't tend to, but if they did my stance would be the same. How many people have had really important surgeries or treatments pushed back, and perhaps died already because an unvaccinated person was taking up a hospital bed, taking up hospital resources?


Emotion wise I agree with you. I don't have a lot of sympathy for someone who refuses a vaccine, gets sick then has an 11th hour OMG help me moment. Especially when their choices mean other people are dying e.g cancer patients.

"Because they're taking up a bed space" isn't really enough justification when you start getting into the weeds. What if the cancer patient developed cancer from smoking or drinking? Or not using sunscreen? Self-inflicted. It's too nuanced IMO.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> You would rather not, but its what is happening. Triage is happening right now. You need cancer treatment, too bad. You are unvaccinated, and cannot breath? Come on in.
> 
> It's bullshit to call it anything but what it is. Triage, with those who have cancer and other conditions are being left to die.
> 
> And it's currently being implemented in a fashion where we cannot see it, but it's killing people all the same.
> 
> Society and the health care system is already doing that, just in a way that is out of the public eye, but no less deadly to those who got the jab and need to watch as a unvaccinated person sucks on a ventilator while their tumor spreads throughout their body and kills them
> 
> Except its happening right now.


Except that even the vaccinated or unable to be vaccinated are also taking up bed spaces.  But your qualifier for access to medical care is based on whatever decision a person may have made and not their actual medical condition.  

Dangerous precedent to set,


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> Yes, I imagine you are "cool" with these people dying because they couldn't get their treatments in time.
> 
> We must save the unvaccinated. Anything else would be...divisive....



No cool my man as in, you have your position and I have mine.  

Neither one of us makes these calls.  Relax and stop being to dramatic.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> And I'll end with this.
> 
> We are cowards.
> 
> We cannot make this choice so we simply act as if its business as usual, which is a choice, and people die.
> 
> People think that someone dying at home without a ventilator is cruel, but are completely fine with some dying at home without chemo.
> 
> Cowards.


Stop.  No one said they were fine with that.  Stop projecting.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Stop.  No one said they were fine with that.  Stop projecting.


Fine. Don't dare judge my choice then. You're making the same one.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> But I could easily throw the whole thing back at you about the chronic smoker who gets lung cancer taking up a spot and bed that someone who got cancer from crap work conditions.



I think because of that, smokers pay cigarette tax.




__





						Tobacco Tax
					





					www.fin.gov.on.ca
				






> As of 12:01 a.m., March 29, 2018, the current tax rates are: 18.475¢ per cigarette



Some of which, presumably, goes toward health care.

Not to suggest the unvaccinated should pay a similar tax.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Fine. Don't dare judge my choice then. You're making the same one.



Tough luck,  I’m judging. 

Again, stop projecting.  I haven’t advocated one over the other.  But you have, very publicly stated you are fine with refusing to treat the unvaccinated.  I have not once stated that I am fine with cancer patients dying in favour of COVID patients. 

I believe that people should not be denied medical treatment.  Regardless of whatever dumb choices they may have made.  

What you propose sets a dangerous precedent for a whole variety of scenarios.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> Smokers pay cigarette tax.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tobacco Tax
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fin.gov.on.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some of which, presumatively, goes toward health care.


Yep.  And the unvaccinated pay their taxes just like the unvaccinated and non smokers do.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Tough luck,  I’m judging.
> 
> Again, stop projecting.  I haven’t advocated one over the other.  But you have, very publicly stated you are fine with refusing to treat the unvaccinated.  I have not once stated that I am fine with cancer patients dying in favour of COVID patients.


I said people were cowards for not making this choice and thus letting things run business as usual.

In which case people still die, but we all get to feel clean about it because we didn't make a choice.


Remius said:


> I believe that people should not be denied medical treatment.


Tell that to cancer patients. They are being denied.


Remius said:


> Regardless of whatever dumb choices they may have made.
> 
> What you propose sets a dangerous precedent for a whole variety of scenarios.


The precedent is that if you do everything right, you die because the system favors the one who didn't


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> And the unvaccinated pay their taxes just like the unvaccinated and non smokers do.



I just wanted to mention that smokers are taxed. Nothing more than that.

Presumably because, as you said,


> the chronic smoker who gets lung cancer taking up a spot and bed



I was careful to also say,



> Not to suggest the unvaccinated should pay a similar tax.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> I just wanted to mention that smokers are taxed. Nothing more than that.
> 
> I was careful to also say,


Oh, I know what you meant,  all good.


----------



## kev994

Remius said:


> Tough luck,  I’m judging.
> 
> Again, stop projecting.  I haven’t advocated one over the other.  But you have, very publicly stated you are fine with refusing to treat the unvaccinated.  I have not once stated that I am fine with cancer patients dying in favour of COVID patients.
> 
> I believe that people should not be denied medical treatment.  Regardless of whatever dumb choices they may have made.
> 
> What you propose sets a dangerous precedent for a whole variety of scenarios.


I think his point is that by cancelling the cancer surgery, or whatever other surgery, the system is killing that person who is no longer getting that surgery, it just takes longer and is indirect. Ergo a choice was made, we just don’t see all the consequences at the time. It is a bit of an interesting conundrum, we focus on the short-term needs.


----------



## lenaitch

Remius said:


> Australia toyed with a combined private public health care system with mixed results,


I don't follow the issue at all, and perhaps there is a hybrid system out there that is working.  I recall reading an analysis quite a while ago outlining how, if private health care was allowed to gain a toehold, the large US corporations would exploit it and under NAFTA (or CUSMA or whatever it is called now) we would be unable to stop it or control it.

The US model, both in terms of population-wide health outcomes and cost, is the system we absolutely don't want to emulate.


----------



## daftandbarmy

COVID-19’s impact on hospital services​*December 9, 2021 —* Care in Canada’s hospitals has been impacted throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Each wave has challenged health systems to find the balance between caring for COVID-19 patients and caring for patients with other health issues. Decisions needed to be made about what care could not wait and what could be delayed. *From March 2020 to June 2021, approximately 560,000 fewer surgeries were performed*, compared with the pre-pandemic period (January to December 2019). Analysis of CIHI’s hospital data describes the effect of COVID-19 on hospital inpatient care, surgeries and specialized resources such as intensive care units (ICUs) and ventilators.
Hospitals adapted to COVID-19 while trying to provide care​Between March 2020 and June 2021, hospitals admitted 11% fewer inpatients, compared with the pre-pandemic period. Following the disruption experienced early on in the pandemic (Wave 1), hospitals gradually resumed routine care, while keeping resources in reserve in the event of a surge of COVID-19 hospitalizations. By the start of Wave 2, admissions had rebounded to within 6% of pre-pandemic levels and many surgical restart programs had been implemented. In Wave 3, hospitals were again pushed to adapt to the changing pandemic and some care was delayed again. 






						COVID-19’s impact on hospital services | CIHI
					

Discover how hospital care was affected during the COVID-19 pandemic, including cancelled surgeries, hospital admissions, ICU admissions and ventilation needs.




					www.cihi.ca


----------



## Altair

kev994 said:


> I think his point is that by cancelling the cancer surgery, or whatever other surgery, the system is killing that person who is no longer getting that surgery, it just takes longer and is indirect. Ergo a choice was made, we just don’t see all the consequences at the time. It is a bit of an interesting conundrum, we focus on the short-term needs.


And everyone is just fine with this choice, or non choice leading to a choice, yet if I say otherwise somehow I'm a monster for doing so. 

Lets kill people longer and indirectly and all sleep fine at night, because doing things the other way would lead to faster and more direct deaths. 

Cowards, hypocrites all.


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> COVID-19’s impact on hospital services​*December 9, 2021 —* Care in Canada’s hospitals has been impacted throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Each wave has challenged health systems to find the balance between caring for COVID-19 patients and caring for patients with other health issues. Decisions needed to be made about what care could not wait and what could be delayed. *From March 2020 to June 2021, approximately 560,000 fewer surgeries were performed*, compared with the pre-pandemic period (January to December 2019). Analysis of CIHI’s hospital data describes the effect of COVID-19 on hospital inpatient care, surgeries and specialized resources such as intensive care units (ICUs) and ventilators.
> Hospitals adapted to COVID-19 while trying to provide care​Between March 2020 and June 2021, hospitals admitted 11% fewer inpatients, compared with the pre-pandemic period. Following the disruption experienced early on in the pandemic (Wave 1), hospitals gradually resumed routine care, while keeping resources in reserve in the event of a surge of COVID-19 hospitalizations. By the start of Wave 2, admissions had rebounded to within 6% of pre-pandemic levels and many surgical restart programs had been implemented. In Wave 3, hospitals were again pushed to adapt to the changing pandemic and some care was delayed again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19’s impact on hospital services | CIHI
> 
> 
> Discover how hospital care was affected during the COVID-19 pandemic, including cancelled surgeries, hospital admissions, ICU admissions and ventilation needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cihi.ca


And once vaccines were wildly available, a lot of this was preventable. 

Yet the system favors the unvaccinated because their health care needs are more immediate, so let us let these people die instead.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> And everyone is just fine with this choice, or non choice leading to a choice, yet if I say otherwise somehow I'm a monster for doing so.
> 
> Lets kill people longer and indirectly and all sleep fine at night, because doing things the other way would lead to faster and more direct deaths.
> 
> Cowards, hypocrites all.


FFS.  No.   It’s a difficult choice one way or another.

But you’ve demonstrated a very cavalier attitude.  Your Dolph Lundgren meme demonstrated exactly why some might think you are a monster.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> FFS.  No.   It’s a difficult choice one way or another.
> 
> But you’ve demonstrated a very cavalier attitude.  Your Dolph Lundgren meme demonstrated exactly why some might think you are a monster.


Oh, so I'm a monster for being cavalier about a choice we as a society are making every single day, condemning people to death because they are denied treatment because someone (odds are unvaccinated) is using resources that they require to live.

But that doesn't change the fact that the decision is being made every day to sacrifice these people to death is as equally horrible as me saying deny the unvaccinated treatment for covid.

But no, the monstrous thing is the meme.

Of course.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Oh, so I'm a monster for being cavalier about a choice we as a society are making every single day, condemning people to death because they are denied treatment because someone (odds are unvaccinated) is using resources that they require to live.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that the decision is being made every day to sacrifice these people to death is as equally horrible as me saying deny the unvaccinated treatment for covid.
> 
> But no, the monstrous thing is the meme.
> 
> Of course.


Yep.

You presented yourself the way you did.  Now you are melting down for being called on it.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Yep.
> 
> You presented yourself the way you did.  Now you are melting down for being called on it.


No, I really don't care what you call me.

I care that people go out, get vaccinated, then go to get treatment and get told that they must go home to suffer and die because the same people protesting outside of hospitals, holding parties, and saying covid is a hoax is in the hospital instead of them.

And I care that people like you seem to be completely okay with that. 

"Oh it's horrible either way"

Why don't we do something about it, like deny the unvaccinated treatment?

Nah, cannot do that.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> No, I really don't care what you call me.
> 
> I care that people go out, get vaccinated, then go to get treatment and get told that they must go home to suffer and die because the same people protesting outside of hospitals, holding parties, and saying covid is a hoax is in the hospital instead of them.




Sure.  I don’t disagree with your sentiment.  I don’t really sympathise with the unwilling that get sick.  Not all the unvaccinated are doing those things btw.  

My opinion on anti vaxxers and anti mandate types has been pretty clear on this forum.  They frustrate me to no end as well.  

But I don’t support denying them medical attention.  Plenty of jurisdictions in the world are sending them bills or not covering their bills but I have yet to see anywhere where they are refusing treatment. 

Here is a quick news story on why this is a bad idea from an ethics point of view.









						COVID-19: Can doctors refuse unvaccinated patients? Reports suggest this is already happening  | Globalnews.ca
					

'Rewriting medical ethics,' unvaccinated Americans and Canadians claim they've been denied medical care, including organ transplants.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows

Health care capacity is finite.  Demand exceeds supply.  Some people need medical care for conditions they at least partly contributed to with poor decisions.  Without an intensely invasive interrogation, we have no way of separating people who did not contribute to their conditions from those who did.

So the whole "let the people who did X suffer consequences" is just "let's make an exception for this one thing here".  Doesn't matter whether the person making the argument is scared or callous or merely ignorant.  It's sh!t any way it's sliced.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Sure.  I don’t disagree with your sentiment.  I don’t really sympathise with the unwilling that get sick.  Not all the unvaccinated are doing those things btw.
> 
> My opinion on anti vaxxers and anti mandate types has been pretty clear on this forum.  They frustrate me to no end as well.
> 
> But I don’t support denying them medical attention.  Plenty of jurisdictions in the world are sending them bills or not covering their bills but I have yet to see anywhere where they are refusing treatment.
> 
> Here is a quick news story on why this is a bad idea from an ethics point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Can doctors refuse unvaccinated patients? Reports suggest this is already happening  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 'Rewriting medical ethics,' unvaccinated Americans and Canadians claim they've been denied medical care, including organ transplants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Don't deny the unvaccinated you deny someone else.

That's the reality.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Health care capacity is finite.  Demand exceeds supply.  Some people need medical care for conditions they at least partly contributed to with poor decisions.  Without an intensely invasive interrogation, we have no way of separating people who did not contribute to their conditions from those who did.
> 
> So the whole "let the people who did X suffer consequences" is just "let's make an exception for this one thing here".  Doesn't matter whether the person making the argument is scared or callous or merely ignorant.  It's sh!t any way it's sliced.


It's not a hard interrogation for a covid case.

You vaccinated?

No?

Get out.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Of course.  You make the exception because the exception is easy to make.  I didn't accuse you of not taking the easy way out, though.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Of course.  You make the exception because the exception is easy to make.  I didn't accuse you of not taking the easy way out, though.


So long as you realize that we are currently as a society working off of "let the people who may have done nothing suffer consequences"


----------



## NavyShooter

Brad Sallows said:


> Health care capacity is finite.  Demand exceeds supply.  <SNIP>


So, here we are, almost 2 years into the "two weeks to flatten the curve", and our nation has poured out it's treasure to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars - and one would think that we'd have used some of that money to work on increasing the capacity.

Based on a few minutes of google-fu, I don't think we've seen much increase.   (Feel free to enlighten me with facts that I may have missed....?)

The good piece of news is that based on the news this morning, it looks like less than 1% of the current strain of COVID infections are hospitalized (7 in hospital in NS out of over 1000 active cases) so, while this is good news, we're not really any more prepared than we were 2 years ago to deal with this.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well if you can whip up a mess of qualified folk to seevice all the beds we'd be fine........not sure how many times it needs to be said.

Personal are the problem, they have either left  and/or are burned out,   Do you know anyone that's stepped up to do the job??


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well if you can whip up a mess of qualified folk to seevice all the beds we'd be fine........not sure how many times it needs to be said.
> 
> Personal are the problem, they have either left  and/or are burned out,   Do you know anyone that's stepped up to do the job??


We’ve been short on nurses in Ontario for a while.  COVID is making it worse.

They suffer from the same issue the CAF has.  Great at recruiting, craptastic at retention.


----------



## winds_13

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well if you can whip up a mess of qualified folk to seevice all the beds we'd be fine........not sure how many times it needs to be said.
> 
> Personal are the problem, they have either left and/or are burned out, Do you know anyone that's stepped up to do the job??


Well, we could start by tapping into more of the foreign trained physicians in this country. It is currently near impossible to get licensed as a doctor in Ontario even if you are a Canadian citizen that is licensed in the U.S. 

"Currently there are more than 13,000 internationally trained doctors in Canada who are not working as doctors"





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				




It seems also that plenty of Canadians want to "step up" and join the healthcare field, but the capacity to train them has not increased much in the last 2 years.









						Nursing schools can’t accommodate increase in demand at time when profession faces shortage
					

Nursing students are being turned away because postsecondary institutions don’t have the funding for extra spots amid a surge in new nursing program applications




					www.google.com
				




It looks like Quebec is taking some steps atleast.





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				




Also, it seems (to me atleast) that something could be done to expediently train and employ civilians in limited roles (with supervision) in healthcare settings. For example, why ship CAF reservists (in non-medical trades) to work in long-term care homes across the country when those same communities undoubtedly had large pools of newly unemployed persons.


----------



## mariomike

Canada's population is aging.



> In 2014, over 6 million Canadians were aged 65 or older, representing 15.6 percent of Canada's population. By 2030—in less than two decades—seniors will number over 9.5 million and make up 23 percent of Canadians. Additionally, by 2036, the average life expectancy at birth for women will rise to 86.2 years from the current 84.2 and to 82.9 years from the current 80 for men.








						Government of Canada — Action for Seniors report - Canada.ca
					

Seniors




					www.canada.ca
				




Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, there is difficulty in recruiting suitably trained replacement staff, just as demand for health services is increasing.

That was predicted years before the pandemic.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> And everyone is just fine with this choice, or non choice leading to a choice, yet if I say otherwise somehow I'm a monster for doing so.
> 
> Lets kill people longer and indirectly and all sleep fine at night, because doing things the other way would lead to faster and more direct deaths.
> 
> Cowards, hypocrites all.



You're being a blithering idiot about this, and I'm going to explain to you in very clear terms why that is so.

Save for, I think, Quirky and yourself, none of us here are "fine with" or "OK with" 'letting' _anyone_ die. As one of the members of this site who's been more engaged than most on this subject since the start, I cannot think of a single individual here who has ever professed to be particularly happy with the state of the healthcare system. The system is strained and under resourced in normal circumstances, never mind the exceptional times we find ourselves in. Pre-COVID, the critical care system in Ontario was running about 65% staffing. COVID forced the massive redeployment of non-critical care nurses. And yes, this pulled from most parts of the acute care system, oncology screenings, and the like. Similarly, 'elective' surgeries - which really just mean it's not a life-saving matter _today_ - were cancelled en masse to preserve ICUs from the predictable overhead of post-surgical complications and critical care interventions.

Any of us who have been paying attention is already well aware of this. Over the course of this pandemic, most of us have mentioned some experience with friends or family experiencing the shortfalls in system capacity. I don't believe any of us are blind or naive to this,s o you certainly are not strutting into this thread possessed of some unique knowledge or insight.

Similarly- many of us have been very clear and strong in our opinions on vaccinations versus employment, access to social spaces, etc etc. Many of us have been very eager to get our vaccinations as quickly as possible, to either protect ourselves, or our family. Many of us have been very clear about precisely how much (or little) sympathy we have for those who are facing the consequences of choices they have made. Many of your views on this are aligned with many of us.

Where we diverge, and where, frankly, you've taken a hard turn to the aggressively shitty, is that few of us consider the healthcare system to be an acceptable arbiter of the ethical consequences of choices. That is not what Canada is, it's not how we do things. While a lot of people are making, IMHO, really stupid choices around vaccination, a lot of people make a lot of really stupid choices around a lot of things every day. None of us predict which of those poor choices - maybe it's driving a bit fast, maybe it's jaywalking at a bad spot, maybe it's running too fast up the stairs, maybe it's our diet or other habits - will be the one that puts us into 'the system' some day, whether suddenly or as a result of a slow and chronic decline.

It is a societal _choice_ that our healthcare system is relatively equal access, and that acute and emergency cases do get prioritized. that _choice_, as a broad stroke, is what many of us accept the ethical necessity of. It doesn't always lead to outcomes that look good or that are particularly comfortable. We don't incentivize or punish choices through denial of access to health insurance or admittance to preferential care. The reality is our system is underfunded and has run chronically understaffed because provincial governments of all stripes don't like to pay for a well staffed or resilient system. That's a matter for the ballot box and constituent meetings. Right now there is one specific stupid choice, largely being made by ignorant and credulous people, that is putting a relatively lot of people in a specific part of hospital and that will strain the system. For decades we've been tolerant, in terms of medical care, of other dumb choices with similar consequences - overconsumption of alcohol or drugs; driving like an idiot; smoking; not getting your flu shot. All of _those_ dumb choices are factored into the system and its baseline capacity, as part of the cost of living in a largely free society, but they also contribute to the underlying healthcare burden, wait times, and delays. Hypocrisy would be in suddenly changing how we gatekeep access to basic and life saving healthcare in a country where we have not been OK with that before. COVID has been a major exigent circumstance that has absolutely forced a revisiting of staffing and resourcing models, and accepting some some suboptimal standards of care in how critical care nurses are deployed. It has not hit a point to justify throwing away our ethics.

It's easy to sit there and smugly call us all cowards and hypocrites from behind a keyboard, but you're impressing precisely nobody.

Now if anyone's looking for me this afternoon for the purpose of further lipping off about being OK with people dying, I'll be tied up driving a family member to start chemo. He made some poor choices in years past too.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> You're being a blithering idiot about this, and I'm going to explain to you in very clear terms why that is so.
> 
> Save for, I think, Quirky and yourself, none of us here are "fine with" or "OK with" 'letting' _anyone_ die. As one of the members of this site who's been more engaged than most on this subject since the start, I cannot think of a single individual here who has ever professed to be particularly happy with the state of the healthcare system. The system is strained and under resourced in normal circumstances, never mind the exceptional times we find ourselves in. Pre-COVID, the critical care system in Ontario was running about 65% staffing. COVID forced the massive redeployment of non-critical care nurses. And yes, this pulled from most parts of the acute care system, oncology screenings, and the like. Similarly, 'elective' surgeries - which really just mean it's not a life-saving matter _today_ - were cancelled en masse to preserve ICUs from the predictable overhead of post-surgical complications and critical care interventions.
> 
> Any of us who have been paying attention is already well aware of this. Over the course of this pandemic, most of us have mentioned some experience with friends or family experiencing the shortfalls in system capacity. I don't believe any of us are blind or naive to this,s o you certainly are not strutting into this thread possessed of some unique knowledge or insight.
> 
> Similarly- many of us have been very clear and strong in our opinions on vaccinations versus employment, access to social spaces, etc etc. Many of us have been very eager to get our vaccinations as quickly as possible, to either protect ourselves, or our family. Many of us have been very clear about precisely how much (or little) sympathy we have for those who are facing the consequences of choices they have made. Many of your views on this are aligned with many of us.
> 
> Where we diverge, and where, frankly, you've taken a hard turn to the aggressively shitty, is that few of us consider the healthcare system to be an acceptable arbiter of the ethical consequences of choices. That is not what Canada is, it's not how we do things. While a lot of people are making, IMHO, really stupid choices around vaccination, a lot of people make a lot of really stupid choices around a lot of things every day. None of us predict which of those poor choices - maybe it's driving a bit fast, maybe it's jaywalking at a bad spot, maybe it's running too fast up the stairs, maybe it's our diet or other habits - will be the one that puts us into 'the system' some day, whether suddenly or as a result of a slow and chronic decline.
> 
> It is a societal _choice_ that our healthcare system is relatively equal access, and that acute and emergency cases do get prioritized. that _choice_, as a broad stroke, is what many of us accept the ethical necessity of. It doesn't always lead to outcomes that look good or that are particularly comfortable. We don't incentivize or punish choices through denial of access to health insurance or admittance to preferential care. The reality is our system is underfunded and has run chronically understaffed because provincial governments of all stripes don't like to pay for a well staffed or resilient system. That's a matter for the ballot box and constituent meetings. Right now there is one specific stupid choice, largely being made by ignorant and credulous people, that is putting a relatively lot of people in a specific part of hospital and that will strain the system. For decades we've been tolerant, in terms of medical care, of other dumb choices with similar consequences - overconsumption of alcohol or drugs; driving like an idiot; smoking; not getting your flu shot. All of _those_ dumb choices are factored into the system and its baseline capacity, as part of the cost of living in a largely free society, but they also contribute to the underlying healthcare burden, wait times, and delays. Hypocrisy would be in suddenly changing how we gatekeep access to basic and life saving healthcare in a country where we have not been OK with that before. COVID has been a major exigent circumstance that has absolutely forced a revisiting of staffing and resourcing models, and accepting some some suboptimal standards of care in how critical care nurses are deployed. It has not hit a point to justify throwing away our ethics.


You could have saved a lot of words and simply said health care is being rationed already. Triage is in place.

And by letting the system run in a business as usual fashion with triaging care is killing people, just slower and out of the public eye.


brihard said:


> Now if anyone's looking for me this afternoon for the purpose of further lipping off about being OK with people dying, I'll be tied up driving a family member to start chemo. He made some poor choices in years past too.


I'm happy your friend is going to chemo.

I wish my friend had that chance.


----------



## lenaitch

Altair said:


> It's not a hard interrogation for a covid case.
> 
> You vaccinated?
> 
> No?
> 
> Get out.


Setting aside those who might have to answer 'no' for a good a valid reason, that type of gate-keeping is awfully broad.  We tend to focus in more intensive aspects such as ICU, which is fair, but many people don't have family physicians or access to walk-in clinics.  Given that Covid typically presents itself with cold/flu-like symptoms, if you have such symptoms and have no choice but to go to emerg. simply sending them away out of hand seems rather arbitrary and unclinical.  If been in emerg several times with my wife (we have a family doctor, who is an unresponsive jerk) and would love to have the power to stand up and summarily send the half of the waiting room home, but I ain't a doctor.  There have been instances across Canada about people who were left to languish, or ignored, in emerg. and later died.

Do we create a system where you get access to the entry level of hospital care, but don't get to go through 'that door'?


----------



## Altair

lenaitch said:


> Setting aside those who might have to answer 'no' for a good a valid reason, that type of gate-keeping is awfully broad.  We tend to focus in more intensive aspects such as ICU, which is fair, but many people don't have family physicians or access to walk-in clinics.  Given that Covid typically presents itself with cold/flu-like symptoms, if you have such symptoms and have no choice but to go to emerg. simply sending them away out of hand seems rather arbitrary and unclinical.  If been in emerg several times with my wife (we have a family doctor, who is an unresponsive jerk) and would love to have the power to stand up and summarily send the half of the waiting room home, but I ain't a doctor.  There have been instances across Canada about people who were left to languish, or ignored, in emerg. and later died.
> 
> Do we create a system where you get access to the entry level of hospital care, but don't get to go through 'that door'?


Get in, get diagnosed, and if it turns out one is suffering from covid and need a bed, send them to the one at home with Ivermectin.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Get in, get diagnosed, and if it turns out one is suffering from covid and need a bed, send them to the one at home with Ivermectin.


This response among others you’ve posted clearly demonstrates you are forming your opinion and position from a position of anger and emotion.  

THAT is why we have qualified people making these calls and not you or me.


----------



## lenaitch

winds_13 said:


> Well, we could start by tapping into more of the foreign trained physicians in this country. It is currently near impossible to get licensed as a doctor in Ontario even if you are a Canadian citizen that is licensed in the U.S.
> 
> "Currently there are more than 13,000 internationally trained doctors in Canada who are not working as doctors"
> 
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> 
> It seems also that plenty of Canadians want to "step up" and join the healthcare field, but the capacity to train them has not increased much in the last 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nursing schools can’t accommodate increase in demand at time when profession faces shortage
> 
> 
> Nursing students are being turned away because postsecondary institutions don’t have the funding for extra spots amid a surge in new nursing program applications
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like Quebec is taking some steps atleast.
> 
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> Redirect Notice
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> 
> Also, it seems (to me atleast) that something could be done to expediently train and employ civilians in limited roles (with supervision) in healthcare settings. For example, why ship CAF reservists (in non-medical trades) to work in long-term care homes across the country when those same communities undoubtedly had large pools of newly unemployed persons.


It's not "near impossible", but there are additional steps.  I have two family members who were foreign trained (UK) and both are now practicing.  One was both schooled and did residency outside of Canada; the other did her residency here.  Both paths to certification were somewhat different.

There is a need to better assess a wide range of foreign professionals who want to practice here.  When I did background investigations for a government-regulated industry I lost track of the number foreign professionals, doctors, engineers, etc. who we applying for these entry-level low paying jobs.  Of course, there is a need to discern between the likes of the Mayo Clinic and the University of Lower Uzbekistan, and I believe that does happen to some degree,  if for no other reason than functional literacy skills, but I am convinced that a lot of the reticence by colleges and professional regulatory bodies amounts to turf-protecting.  There also needs to a better connect between levels of government and private immigration consultants.  It's one thing to be told 'sure, you can be a doctor-we need doctors' and 'but you need to spend ten grand and five years, and in the meantime you get to deliver pizzas'.

A large part of our doctor/nurse shortage is successive governments limiting seats under the guise of predicting the industry's needs but in reality limiting government funding.  It's astonishing expensive.

I'm not so sure about quickly training the willing or unemployed.  Hospital auxiliaries and volunteers already do a lot of services, but anything that is patient-facing or patient-handling, hmm, I'm not sure I'd want to be on the receiving end of the poorly trained but well intentioned, nor would I want to be their supervisor.  One dropped patient or thrown back and hospital lawyers and insurance carriers would be having words.


----------



## Remius

lenaitch said:


> It's not "near impossible", but there are additional steps.  I have two family members who were foreign trained (UK) and both are now practicing.  One was both schooled and did residency outside of Canada; the other did her residency here.  Both paths to certification were somewhat different.
> 
> There is a need to better assess a wide range of foreign professionals who want to practice here.  When I did background investigations for a government-regulated industry I lost track of the number foreign professionals, doctors, engineers, etc. who we applying for these entry-level low paying jobs.  Of course, there is a need to discern between the likes of the Mayo Clinic and the University of Lower Uzbekistan, and I believe that does happen to some degree,  if for no other reason than functional literacy skills, but I am convinced that a lot of the reticence by colleges and professional regulatory bodies amounts to turf-protecting.  There also needs to a better connect between levels of government and private immigration consultants.  It's one thing to be told 'sure, you can be a doctor-we need doctors' and 'but you need to spend ten grand and five years, and in the meantime you get to deliver pizzas'.
> 
> A large part of our doctor/nurse shortage is successive governments limiting seats under the guise of predicting the industry's needs but in reality limiting government funding.  It's astonishing expensive.
> 
> I'm not so sure about quickly training the willing or unemployed.  Hospital auxiliaries and volunteers already do a lot of services, but anything that is patient-facing or patient-handling, hmm, I'm not sure I'd want to be on the receiving end of the poorly trained but well intentioned, nor would I want to be their supervisor.  One dropped patient or thrown back and hospital lawyers and insurance carriers would be having words.


Not only that but as mentioned we are seeing higher demand from an aging population which is adding more pressure. 

But the nursing world also created a bit of a crunch by not recognizing college trained nurses and removing the RN streams that used to exist there.  I mean you can still gateway I believe from college but I would reenstate that route even if it gets them partly qualified.    Also the resistance from some professional groups in some sectors to PAs has also led to self inflicted injury to the system.


----------



## Jarnhamar

We could improve our healthcare system if we re-imagined our spending priorities.



> The federal government spent $8,664,524 in its failed campaign for a seat on the United Nations Security Council, according to records obtained by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.





> Depending on the number of affected firearms in Canada, the take-up rate, and the pricing structure used, the estimated total compensation under the buy-back program could amount to $756 million, in addition to administration costs.





> International Assistance Spending
> Canada’s international assistance spending increased by 3.5% to CAD$6.6 billion in 2019, up from CAD$6.4 billion in 2019.
> 
> The largest recipient in 2020 was Afghanistan (CAD$189 million)





> In August, the government announced it would be allocating $50 million for initial humanitarian aid, which is in addition to $27.3 million already allocated for Afghanistan in 2021.


----------



## lenaitch

Remius said:


> Not only that but as mentioned we are seeing higher demand from an aging population which is adding more pressure.
> 
> But the nursing world also created a bit of a crunch by not recognizing college trained nurses and removing the RN streams that used to exist there.  I mean you can still gateway I believe from college but I would reenstate that route even if it gets them partly qualified.    Also the resistance from some professional groups in some sectors to PAs has also led to self inflicted injury to the system.



The way I understand it in Ontario - and certainly stand to be corrected - a college diploma qualifies a graduate as a Practical Nurse, whereas a Registered Nurse is a Bachelor-level degree (which many dual-stream colleges offer).  A Nurse Practitioner is the equivalent of a Masters although I don't know if it is formally recognized as such.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> This response among others you’ve posted clearly demonstrates you are forming your opinion and position from a position of anger and emotion.


I cannot say I prefer the cold automated system of simply following policy when it comes to delaying and denying treatments, diagnostics, and surgeries so people who didn't do the bare minimum to protect themselves use up finite resources.


Remius said:


> THAT is why we have qualified people making these calls and not you or me.


Qualified people can make the choices, but we can still have our opinions.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I cannot say I prefer the cold automated system of simply following policy when it comes to delaying and denying treatments, diagnostics, and surgeries so people who didn't do the bare minimum to protect themselves use up finite resources.
> 
> Qualified people can make the choices, but we can still have our opinions.


Of course. 

What you propose though is a fundamental change to Canada’s access to health care and medical ethics that go with it.  

Western medical ethics have been developed over decades if not longer.  Emotion should not be the trigger to change it. 

Fix the system, get more ressources.  That is the solution.  Not culling the population and breaking the moral code of the practice of medicine.


----------



## lenaitch

Remius said:


> Not only that but as mentioned we are seeing higher demand from an aging population which is adding more pressure.


Ya no kidding.  At my age, I vacillate between hoping I wake up dead one morning and being set off on an ice flow.  Decent LTC in Ontario is astonishingly expensive and, from our experience with the wife's parents, ain't that great unless you can afford mega-bucks.  The best thing that happened to her dad has been the Sunnybrook Veterans' Centre.  Maybe I should have signed up.


----------



## Remius

lenaitch said:


> Ya no kidding.  At my age, I vacillate between hoping I wake up dead one morning and being set off on an ice flow.  Decent LTC in Ontario is astonishingly expensive and, from our experience with the wife's parents, ain't that great unless you can afford mega-bucks.  The best thing that happened to her dad has been the Sunnybrook Veterans' Centre.  Maybe I should have signed up.


My father in law is at a not for profit.  When we shopped around it was ridiculous how bad some of those places are.  My mother in law was stubborn though and after 2 years of waiting we got him where we wanted him.  But at over 3000$ plus a month it isn’t cheap.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Of course.
> 
> What you propose though is a fundamental change to Canada’s access to health care and medical ethics that go with it.


Fundamental change...

I remember during the height of the Iraq war, the backdoor draft was implemented. Now it didn't reintroduce the draft but it did have the same effect, having people serve far longer than what they signed up for. But so long as they didn't reintroduce the actual draft there was no "fundamental change".

Citizens, hundreds of thousands are being fundamentally denied access to life changing healthcare, but it's not a "fundemental change"? Having to run off to other countries if you have the money, die at home if you don't, isn't a fundamental change?

Good grief...


Remius said:


> Western medical ethics have been developed over decades if not longer.  Emotion should not be the trigger to change it.


Heartlessly killing one group of people over another group of people should not be the norm.


Remius said:


> Fix the system, get more ressources.  That is the solution.  Not culling the population and breaking the moral code of the practice of medicine.


That cannot change overnight. It might take decades to build up the capacity that even the poorest of US states have in their system.

Meanwhile, people are dying now. Today. Yesterday. Tomorrow. The long term solutions, if even implemented,  which is not a given, does nothing for those stuck with the shit end of the stick today.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Fundamental change...
> 
> I remember during the height of the Iraq war, the backdoor draft was implemented. Now it didn't reintroduce the draft but it did have the same effect, having people serve far longer than what they signed up for. But so long as they didn't reintroduce the actual draft there was no "fundamental change".
> 
> Citizens, hundreds of thousands are being fundamentally denied access to life changing healthcare, but it's not a "fundemental change"? Having to run off to other countries if you have the money, die at home if you don't, isn't a fundamental change?
> 
> Good grief...
> 
> Heartlessly killing one group of people over another group of people should not be the norm.
> 
> That cannot change overnight. It might take decades to build up the capacity that even the poorest of US states have in their system.
> 
> Meanwhile, people are dying now. Today. Yesterday. Tomorrow. The long term solutions, if even implemented,  which is not a given, does nothing for those stuck with the shit end of the stick today.


The American draft has nothing to do wit medical ethics and how it is applied in Canada.

So your argument then is valid for anyone that wants to cull whoever in favour of whoever. 

Why not smokers?  Why not the Obese?  Why not the extreme sports types?  Heck, why not any type of sport participant?  

How about those that waited too long to get treatment and made it worse?

What about the overdose that a teenager suffers?

Or how about the guy that went for a walk and got lost because he didn't prepare and needs medical attention for hypothermia? 

The problem is that you are drawing the line at a particular group you hold disdain for.  Not an overall position on who gets to live or die.  You want our system to be about the choices people make and the base it on an opinion.

Your solution would not make the system better it would make it worse because rather than fix the system you opt for the easy route.  

Imagine if years ago we just let HIV patients die and refuse them treatment?  I mean they put a lot of strain on the system based on life choices many disagreed with at the time.  What would be the point of even trying to treat that?  But we didn't, and now they can almost all survive that because the system didn't reject them.

We don't live in a facist state that allows for the weak or dumb to be culled based on a judgement of their life choices.  

At the end of the day, your proposal will never see the light of day so the argument is hypothetical.  Could we see the unvaccinated billed for their hospital stays?  Possibly.  Its happening in a lot of places and polling indicates support for that.  But no one will be denied service.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> The American draft has nothing to do wit medical ethics and how it is applied in Canada.


It has to do with fundemental change being implemented without saying fundemental change has been implemented.


Remius said:


> So your argument then is valid for anyone that wants to cull whoever in favour of whoever.
> 
> Why not smokers?  Why not the Obese?  Why not the extreme sports types?  Heck, why not any type of sport participant?
> 
> How about those that waited too long to get treatment and made it worse?
> 
> What about the overdose that a teenager suffers?
> 
> Or how about the guy that went for a walk and got lost because he didn't prepare and needs medical attention for hypothermia?
> 
> The problem is that you are drawing the line at a particular group you hold disdain for.  Not an overall position on who gets to live or die.  You want our system to be about the choices people make and the base it on an opinion.


The system is dispassionately doing the thing you rail against. Where is your outrage at that? Hundreds of thousands are being denied timely medical care, where is your defense of them and their situation? Crickets.

Like I said, society sleeps at night because we pretend we are not making a choice. But we condemn people to death and choose who die all the same, just in a dispassionate way we call policy.

There is no difference whatsoever from me saying unvaccinated people should die quietly at home and those needing life changing medical treatment should die quietly at home. None.

And before you try your BS line of nobody is saying that, not making a choice is the same as making a choice.


Remius said:


> Your solution would not make the system better it would make it worse because rather than fix the system you opt for the easy route.


Triage is about picking those with the best odds to live, not changing the system on the fly. To say otherwise is asinine. What do you, remius, say to the person who needs cancer treatment and has that treatment pushed back 3-4 months? Huh? Wait until the system gets better?

No, these folks have two choices. Find the money to get healthcare outside of Canada, or die. Easy route my ass.


Remius said:


> Imagine if years ago we just let HIV patients die and refuse them treatment?  I mean they put a lot of strain on the system based on life choices many disagreed with at the time.  What would be the point of even trying to treat that?  But we didn't, and now they can almost all survive that because the system didn't reject them.
> 
> We don't live in a facist state that allows for the weak or dumb to be culled based on a judgement of their life choices.


True, we live in a state where we tell people to go home and die because we prioritize those who made bad life choices.

Much better.


Remius said:


> At the end of the day, your proposal will never see the light of day so the argument is hypothetical.  Could we see the unvaccinated billed for their hospital stays?  Possibly.  Its happening in a lot of places and polling indicates support for that.  But no one will be denied service.


No one except the hundreds of thousands having life saving procedures cancelled to make sure the unvaccinated in large part get treated, but it's clear you really don't give a damn about that.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> It has to do with fundemental change being implemented without saying fundemental change has been implemented.
> 
> The system is dispassionately doing the thing you rail against. Where is your outrage at that? Hundreds of thousands are being denied timely medical care, where is your defense of them and their situation? Crickets.
> 
> Like I said, society sleeps at night because we pretend we are not making a choice. But we condemn people to death and choose who die all the same, just in a dispassionate way we call policy.
> 
> There is no difference whatsoever from me saying unvaccinated people should die quietly at home and those needing life changing medical treatment should die quietly at home. None.
> 
> And before you try your BS line of nobody is saying that, not making a choice is the same as making a choice.
> 
> Triage is about picking those with the best odds to live, not changing the system on the fly. To say otherwise is asinine. What do you, remius, say to the person who needs cancer treatment and has that treatment pushed back 3-4 months? Huh? Wait until the system gets better?
> 
> No, these folks have two choices. Find the money to get healthcare outside of Canada, or die. Easy route my ass.
> 
> True, we live in a state where we tell people to go home and die because we prioritize those who made bad life choices.
> 
> Much better.
> 
> No one except the hundreds of thousands having life saving procedures cancelled to make sure the unvaccinated in large part get treated, but it's clear you really don't give a damn about that.



Can't I get a fact check on aile 3 ? 

Exactly how many people can be concretely and definitively said to have died because an unvaxxed person was being treated, for COVID, in their place ?


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> Can't I get a fact check on aile 3 ?
> 
> Exactly how many people can be concretely and definitively said to have died because an unvaxxed person was being treated, for COVID, in their place ?











						Delayed health care during pandemic may have led to thousands of excess deaths: study
					

Health-care restrictions brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic may have contributed to thousands of excess deaths not related to the virus, along with increased incidents of mental health disorders and substance use, and have put a strain on the Canadian health-care system, according to a study...




					www.google.com
				






> The study shows that delayed treatments or missed health-care services due to pandemic restrictions may have been a factor in more than 4,000 excess deaths unrelated to COVID-19 infections between August and December 2020 and have also resulted in a significant backlog of medical procedures.


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> Can't I get a fact check on aile 3 ?
> 
> Exactly how many people can be concretely and definitively said to have died because an unvaxxed person was being treated, for COVID, in their place ?











						'I won't be here next year': Canadians robbed of life by delayed diagnoses amid pandemic
					

Several Canadians who reached out to CTVNews.ca say their diagnoses of cancers, autoimmune disorders and incurable conditions could have been caught sooner and possibly prevented from advancing to late stages had the COVID-19 pandemic not delayed their annual screenings and checkups.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				






> Robinson said her left breast became dense in September 2020, and called her family doctor asking for a mammogram, realizing she was not notified of her yearly checkup months earlier. She was not able to get an appointment for a mammogram until January 2021. Her results came back abnormal and a second mammogram, done in February, confirmed she had Stage 4 breast cancer.
> 
> While doctors were able to get her in for a lumpectomy in early April 2021, Robinson said her recovery was slow and painful. She was experiencing burning across her back and down her legs, was struggling to walk, and developed a sebaceous cyst on her head. This prompted her doctor to order more screens to check if the cancer had spread.
> 
> A bone scan confirmed that Robinson's breast cancer had metastasized to her bones. Cancer in the bones is incurable, and the only treatment is to ease pain and slow the progression of the disease.
> 
> "It's pretty well a prognosis of early demise," Robinson said.
> 
> Robinson is among several Canadians who reached out to CTVNews.ca saying their diagnoses of cancers, autoimmune disorders and incurable conditions could have been caught sooner, and possibly prevented from advancing to late stages, had the COVID-19 pandemic not delayed their annual screenings and checkups.


----------



## Halifax Tar

So we don't really know then.


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> So we don't really know then.


Not having the full picture doesn't make the situation any less dire.


----------



## QV

This thread is going in circles, like our political leaders and mandarins who keep doing the same thing expecting different results.  

The first part of finding a solution is to first understand the problem. The British Medical Journal in 2002 enunciates today's problem precisely, it's almost like they were prophetic:









						Selling sickness: the pharmaceutical industry and disease mongering
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



_Summary points_

_Some forms of “medicalisation” may now be better described as “disease mongering”—extending the boundaries of treatable illness to expand markets for new products_
_Alliances of pharmaceutical manufacturers, doctors, and patients groups use the media to frame conditions as being widespread and severe_
_Disease mongering can include turning ordinary ailments into medical problems, seeing mild symptoms as serious, treating personal problems as medical, seeing risks as diseases, and framing prevalence estimates to maximise potential markets_
_Corporate funded information about disease should be replaced by independent information_
The history of big pharma, such as Pfizer, bribing doctors and falsifying studies demonstrates "_they'd never do that_" is a pipe dream.


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> Delayed health care during pandemic may have led to thousands of excess deaths: study
> 
> 
> Health-care restrictions brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic may have contributed to thousands of excess deaths not related to the virus, along with increased incidents of mental health disorders and substance use, and have put a strain on the Canadian health-care system, according to a study...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



My ex-wife is Director of Quality, Performance, Professional Practice and Chief Nursing Executive at a major downtown hospital. 

She didn't go into specific detail, but basically said the same thing.


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> My ex-wife is Director of Quality, Performance, Professional Practice and Chief Nursing Executive at a major downtown hospital.
> 
> She didn't go into specific detail, but basically said the same thing.


We probably should have never delayed any healthcare at all or LWOP'd any medical staff for any reason.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> My ex-wife is Director of Quality, Performance, Professional Practice and Chief Nursing Executive at a major downtown hospital.
> 
> She didn't go into specific detail, but basically said the same thing.


Yes, it's pretty cleat that the backlogs will take months if not years to catch up to, and not everyone has that long.

It's also clear from data coming out of hospitals that there is a even mix of vaccinated and unvaccinated taking up space in hospitals, despite the unvaccinated being around 15 percent of society and vaccinated 85 percent.

9 of those 10 unvaccinated people in hospitals wouldn't be there if they got the jab and they are a outsized reason for others on wait lists ending up 6 feet in the ground.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> It has to do with fundemental change being implemented without saying fundemental change has been implemented.
> 
> The system is dispassionately doing the thing you rail against. Where is your outrage at that? Hundreds of thousands are being denied timely medical care, where is your defense of them and their situation? Crickets.
> 
> Like I said, society sleeps at night because we pretend we are not making a choice. But we condemn people to death and choose who die all the same, just in a dispassionate way we call policy.
> 
> There is no difference whatsoever from me saying unvaccinated people should die quietly at home and those needing life changing medical treatment should die quietly at home. None.
> 
> And before you try your BS line of nobody is saying that, not making a choice is the same as making a choice.
> 
> Triage is about picking those with the best odds to live, not changing the system on the fly. To say otherwise is asinine. What do you, remius, say to the person who needs cancer treatment and has that treatment pushed back 3-4 months? Huh? Wait until the system gets better?
> 
> No, these folks have two choices. Find the money to get healthcare outside of Canada, or die. Easy route my ass.
> 
> True, we live in a state where we tell people to go home and die because we prioritize those who made bad life choices.
> 
> Much better.
> 
> No one except the hundreds of thousands having life saving procedures cancelled to make sure the unvaccinated in large part get treated, but it's clear you really don't give a damn about that.


I don't say anything to the person who needs treatment 3 or 4 months down the line.  We have professionals that do that.  I leave it in their hands.  Not my place to make that call.  No more than it's your place to make that call Altair.

So what are you actually doing to change that?  Because looking like the grim reaper here isn't going to help. 

Have you advocated death to the unvaccinated to your MP?   The Health minister?  Maybe a letter with what you wrote here? 

Start a petition?

Actually you voted for the one party that would just let this pandemic run wild with no restrictions LOL.  Hypocrisy...you are one to talk.  

Perhaps a career change into health care to effect change from within? 

You can do all of that.

Again, no one is refuting anything you have posted about the pressures on the health system.  We agree.  I don't want the sick cancer people to die at home either.  

 And from a personal emotional angry side of me I'd rather the unvaccinated NOT clog up our system.  I'm upset that they are making what I think is the wrong decision and feel very little sympathy if they get sick and yes if they die from those choices.  Yes, I blame them in part for where we are with this.  

But the rational side of me knows that from a medical ethics side, that denying them medical treatment is wrong.

All I see Altair, is you trying to project your horrible willingness to condemn others to death on people that don't agree with you by stating we are all somehow complicit.  I'm double vacced, I'm going for my booster.  I wear a mask, wash my hands, limit transmission where I can. 

Because if you haven't actually done anything other than rant here, you are just as complicit as all of us.  More so because of your voting history.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> So what are you actually doing to change that?



Curious about this as well.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> We probably should have never delayed any healthcare at all or LWOP'd any medical staff for any reason.



If you say so. I'm only familiar with pre-hospital medical service.

Someone else said it better than I could,



> So he gets infected - from whatever source - and takes his whole crew out of service. How is that public safety? Perhaps a relatively healthy person could survive being medically treated by an infected firefighter or paramedic, but could a medically compromised one? The employer (city) owns the liability.



Whatever your opinion is, in the town I live, crews have been double-vaxxed since the end of October.

Any who did not were suspended 1 Nov. and terminated 13 Dec.

( Those who have received their first vaccination, and can provide proof for their second appointment prior to 3 Jan., may return to duty. )

I didn't make the policy. It is what it is.

I have not read of any city-wide response time delays.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> So long as you realize that we are currently as a society working off of "let the people who may have done nothing suffer consequences"



Yes, life is sh!t, but I'm accustomed to it.  Not going to throw out essential principles because of one edge case.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Well if you can whip up a mess of qualified folk to seevice all the beds we'd be fine



We can't, but the longer things drag on the more obvious it becomes that a mini-revolution in health care delivery should have been kicked off earlier.  I can guess that once the promise of vaccines in the pipeline emerged a few months in, people who manage resources took the path of least resistance - wait it out, and back to status quo.

Might as well start now.  Throw a few billion at building capacity instead of just propping up consumption.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brad Sallows said:


> Might as well start now.  Throw a few billion at building capacity instead of just propping up consumption.


Have sweeping changes to our LTC homes started? Seemed to die out of the news pretty quick.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Altair said:


> Not having the full picture doesn't make the situation any less dire.



If you say so Skibbereen


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Have sweeping changes to our LTC homes started? Seemed to die out of the news pretty quick.


Mixed bag, since the provinces are the lead on this one - not as sexy to track for media (like, say, daily coverage on a house being built) as numbers (more like sports scores).


----------



## brihard

LTC workers get paid and treated like total dogshit, true. It’s very clear how much value of government places in our elderly.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Have sweeping changes to our LTC homes started? Seemed to die out of the news pretty quick.



Prior to COVID and our collective concern with protecting the most vulnerable (which is synonymous with protecting the elderly), debates over reducing resources thrown at late-life care for the very elderly raged for decades.  No prizes for guessing that the people most focused on managing everything in life tend to favour more efficient utilization of resources.  They currently hold the ball.  I expect a lot of noise about sweeping change, but not much actual sweeping change.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> LTC workers get paid and treated like total dogshit, true. It’s very clear how much value of government places in our elderly.


It's terrible. Cynical me wonders if that has to do with an assumption that people in LTC homes won't vote in elections in big numbers, whether it's federal or provincial.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> It's terrible. Cynical me wonders if that has to do with an assumption that people in LTC homes won't vote in elections in big numbers, whether it's federal or provincial.


It’s a vulnerable population.  And can do very little to advocate for themselves.  What we need is a change in how we view end of life.  Right now we box them up in LTCs and fire and forget.   Seeing the experience my father in law is going through I would prefer not to go that route with my parents if that time comes. 

The home I bought was with a view that one of our parents may have to come live here.  I’d prefer professional in home care with me and the wife around to supervise accordingly.  We retire in less than 6 years.  We’ll be lucky that if needed, we can dedicate the time.  

As for the voting block, the boomers are headed towards that system more and more,  they are still a significant voting block and will be for a while.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> ... Cynical me wonders if that has to do with an assumption that people in LTC homes won't vote in elections in big numbers, whether it's federal or provincial.


Maybe not the people _in_ the homes, but the families seeing them get shitty care have been able to vote for the past 20 years that I've seen "never quite enough & long waiting lists" complaints about long-term care (in Ontario, anyway).

Also remember (as we've seen in the waves of COVID sweeping through some nursing homes) that long-term care is big-ish business, and parties of all colours tend to shy away from costing big constituencies like this big money.  I suspect even Team Orange governments could have done more than they have in this sector.  Remember, even Bob Rae caved to Big Insurance ...

Unions have also spoken out about this sort of thing for at least the past 20 years or so, but there's also always been a always-above-zero counter-narrative saying things like, "it's just unions whining," "more jobs for the union members = more union dues," "personal service workers are only entry-level positions" and "the private sector is doing it with less".


----------



## Brad Sallows

Most likely just a consequence of not requiring highly credentialed staff.  Try arguing, for example, that early childhood workers should be paid comparably to teachers but without requiring a university degree.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> I don't know why anyone goes this route.
> 
> Simply make treatment for covid dependent on having the vaccine.
> 
> This is about the shit healthcare system we have in Canada and the bare bones capacity we have. In order to protect the capacity for those who actually did their part to protect themselves from covid, exclude those that did not. Call it triage and go from there.
> 
> As for those who get sick with covid and are unvaccinated, well...



You guys are RTF out of it.  This is Canada.  

Why aren’t these types of posts being removed by staff?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Eye In The Sky said:


> You guys are RTF out of it.  This is Canada.
> 
> Why aren’t these types of posts being removed by staff?



Because in Canada his right of expression is more important than bruised sensitivities.


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> LTC workers get paid and treated like total dogshit, true. It’s very clear how much value of government places in our elderly.


The only line the paymasters care about is the bottom line. As I understand a contracted corporation is responsible to operate LTC facilities. 

Often the workers are part time so they must redeploy every few hours to another "job". This is so the corporation doesn't have to pay out as much in those pesky benefits.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> Of course you're right, but the reality is the crap healthcare system we have is the crap healthcare system we have and by trying to save one group its leading to deaths in other groups, and so far the group we are dedicated to saving is the group that has its head in the sand thinking vaccinates are evil or whatever their reason, and the groups we are sacrificing are those who may or may not be vaccinated, but based on the levels of vaccinations in the country, are more than likely vaccinated, who need the hospital resources the unvaccinated are taking up.
> 
> People can think me evil, saying that the unvaccinated should be forced to stay home and use ivermectin or whatever else they think will work instead of vaccines and let those who did get vaccinated get their surgeries, their treatments. That's fine. What those people are  saying is that they are fully willing to let those vaccinated (or not) people who need to those treatments die to protect those who didn't get the vaccine.



I’m one of those people.  And that’s not what I’m saying at all.  I’m saying we in Canada don’t separate people the way you want to.

Why not just have the unvaccinated sew a star on their jackets?  That worked in the past.  Right?


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> I don't know why anyone goes this route.
> 
> Simply make treatment for covid dependent on having the vaccine.
> 
> This is about the shit healthcare system we have in Canada and the bare bones capacity we have. In order to protect the capacity for those who actually did their part to protect themselves from covid, exclude those that did not. Call it triage and go from there.
> 
> As for those who get sick with covid and are unvaccinated, well...


So if I follow you correctly - if you're obese you don't get to see the doc cause you didn't lose weight.
Smoker - get out before we throw you out filthy smoker.

Is this what your advocating? Only the healthy get health care?

I get where you're going with this BUT I've said before that in the USA and Canada we put a very high value on human life that it can cripple us from making extremely difficult decisions.


----------



## OceanBonfire

For some reason, Japan has extremely low cases:









						The riddle of Japan's dramatic drop in COVID numbers
					

The turnaround came in the wake of a fifth wave of infections that peaked in August. Japan is trying to figure out why its COVID-19 case numbers and fatalities have plummeted.




					www.npr.org


----------



## Good2Golf

> "We've had below 50 new cases on average for eight weeks," Dr. Norio Ohmagari, of Japan's National Center for Global Health and Medicine, told a meeting on Dec. 9. about the situation in Tokyo.
> 
> His explanation: "We think it is due to countermeasures taken by many citizens and institutions, and accelerated vaccination, thanks to medical staffs' efforts and citizens' understanding."



Japanese societal importance of personal conduct in support of collectively responsible action…


----------



## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:


> Japanese societal importance of personal conduct in support of collectively responsible action…


Perhaps coupled with the virus mutating into a less lethal form?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Halifax Tar said:


> Because in Canada his right of expression is more important than bruised sensitivities.



I don’t think you meant me (bruised sensitivities ) did you?


----------



## The Bread Guy

OldSolduer said:


> The only line the paymasters care about is the bottom line ...


... especially in facilities owned or run by the private sector ....


----------



## Halifax Tar

Eye In The Sky said:


> I don’t think you meant me (bruised sensitivities ) did you?



Nope, just an emphasis that his opinion, which I also think is disgusting and un-Canadian, is allowed to be posted like yours and mine.


----------



## mariomike

Eye In The Sky said:


> Why not just have the unvaccinated sew a star on their jackets?



Looks like some do.

In today's CTV News,










						Protest held in Fredericton criticized for its use of holocaust imagery
					

The Atlantic Jewish Council is condemning protesters’ use of holocaust imagery at a rally against vaccine passports and mandates Saturday.




					atlantic.ctvnews.ca
				






> As the unmasked group rallied outside of Fredericton’s town hall and marched through the streets, several people held large cut outs of the yellow Star of David while others wore the yellow star on their chest.



Not just in New Brunswick.




__





						"star of david" covid - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## mariomike

OceanBonfire said:


> For some reason, Japan has extremely low cases:



My RMT is from Japan. She was wearing a mask ( on occasion ) long before Covid. Not very often, but sometimes during Hay Fever season.

She explained Japanese culture considers mask-wearing is linked with being a good family member, neighbour and citizen.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Idle speculation (Japan): less obesity, genetic general good health (eg. longevity), culture not big on overt displays of affection despite being willing to endure very crowded conditions in some circumstances, culture predisposed to tradition and conformity (despite oddball modern cultural innovations).


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I don't say anything to the person who needs treatment 3 or 4 months down the line.  We have professionals that do that.  I leave it in their hands.  Not my place to make that call.  No more than it's your place to make that call Altair.


Cop out. 

Fine, I expected nothing less.


Remius said:


> So what are you actually doing to change that?  Because looking like the grim reaper here isn't going to help.
> 
> Have you advocated death to the unvaccinated to your MP?   The Health minister?  Maybe a letter with what you wrote here?


I've written to my MP and MPP for all the good I'm sure that's going to do.


Remius said:


> Start a petition?
> 
> Actually you voted for the one party that would just let this pandemic run wild with no restrictions LOL.  Hypocrisy...you are one to talk.


Right,  I voted PPC full well expecting them to 

A) Form government

B) Hold the balance of power in a minority parliament. 

Of course I did.


Remius said:


> Perhaps a career change into health care to effect change from within?


Not sure if serious....


Remius said:


> You can do all of that.
> 
> Again, no one is refuting anything you have posted about the pressures on the health system.  We agree.  I don't want the sick cancer people to die at home either.
> 
> And from a personal emotional angry side of me I'd rather the unvaccinated NOT clog up our system.  I'm upset that they are making what I think is the wrong decision and feel very little sympathy if they get sick and yes if they die from those choices.  Yes, I blame them in part for where we are with this.
> 
> But the rational side of me knows that from a medical ethics side, that denying them medical treatment is wrong.


How you square this circle is beyond me. Don't deny them care, deny care to others. Someone is being denied care in our scenario. 


Remius said:


> All I see Altair, is you trying to project your horrible willingness to condemn others to death on people that don't agree with you by stating we are all somehow complicit.  I'm double vacced, I'm going for my booster.  I wear a mask, wash my hands, limit transmission where I can.


By following the medical ethics, you in your opinion, the medical system in policy, and society at large, is willing to condemn people facing delays in treatment to death.  Get off your high horse.


Remius said:


> Because if you haven't actually done anything other than rant here, you are just as complicit as all of us.


I did say we as a society are collective cowards. I never once excluded myself from society.


Remius said:


> More so because of your voting history.


I want you to point to the PPC MP that is effecting change in the house of commons. I'll wait.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

mariomike said:


> Looks like some do.
> 
> In today's CTV News,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Protest held in Fredericton criticized for its use of holocaust imagery
> 
> 
> The Atlantic Jewish Council is condemning protesters’ use of holocaust imagery at a rally against vaccine passports and mandates Saturday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> atlantic.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not just in New Brunswick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "star of david" covid - Google Search
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com



Good grief.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’m one of those people.


I hope you have the common decency to tough out covid at home if it comes to it then. 


Eye In The Sky said:


> And that’s not what I’m saying at all.  I’m saying we in Canada don’t separate people the way you want to.


And people who are getting their treatments delayed and canceled are paying the price. You happy?


Eye In The Sky said:


> Why not just have the unvaccinated sew a star on their jackets?  That worked in the past.  Right?


Hey, if the unvaccinated have cancer they should be able to go get treatment. Or whatever other medical ailment they may suffer. But clogging up the medical system because they wont get the jab, causing lockdowns and delays? Nah, get out of here with that.  For the greater good of society as a whole it would be better if they don't get treatment for covid allowing the 85 percent of us who have gotten the jab to live our lives.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> So if I follow you correctly - if you're obese you don't get to see the doc cause you didn't lose weight.
> Smoker - get out before we throw you out filthy smoker.


If the medical system was facing backlogs from these two groups? Hell ya. Oddly enough, before the pandemic, there wasn't the widescale system delays and backlogs we are seeing now so I don't think these two groups were having that kind of effect. But if they were, my opinion wouldn't change. 


OldSolduer said:


> Is this what your advocating? Only the healthy get health care?


No, I'm advocating that those who are willingly putting themselves at risk shouldn't be denying health care to everyone else. 


OldSolduer said:


> I get where you're going with this BUT I've said before that in the USA and Canada we put a very high value on human life that it can cripple us from making extremely difficult decisions.


Not making a decision is making a decision. 

What do people not get about that?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> I hope you have the common decency to tough out covid at home if it comes to it then.



I’m not one of the unvaccinated.  I am one of those other people you were referring to.


Altair said:


> And people who are getting their treatments delayed and canceled are paying the price. You happy?



Happy?  Is there a “happy” in this conversation? I am comfortable and confident the medical experts are treating the day to day prioritization of patients IAW ethically and legally acceptable practices in Canada.  And I don’t envy their job of making those decisions.  


Altair said:


> Hey, if the unvaccinated have cancer they should be able to go get treatment. Or whatever other medical ailment they may suffer. But clogging up the medical system because they wont get the jab, causing lockdowns and delays? Nah, get out of here with that.  For the greater good of society as a whole it would be better if they don't get treatment for covid allowing the 85 percent of us who have gotten the jab to live our lives.



Is the cancer patient a smoker?  Consumed copious amounts of fast food?  Didn’t exercise?  Because they are “clogging down the system”…and for the greater good, I agree with you Scrooge - better if they die, and decrease the surplus population…


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Cop out.
> 
> Fine, I expected nothing less.
> 
> I've written to my MP and MPP for all the good I'm sure that's going to do.
> 
> Right,  I voted PPC full well expecting them to
> 
> A) Form government
> 
> B) Hold the balance of power in a minority parliament.
> 
> Of course I did.
> 
> Not sure if serious....
> 
> How you square this circle is beyond me. Don't deny them care, deny care to others. Someone is being denied care in our scenario.
> 
> By following the medical ethics, you in your opinion, the medical system in policy, and society at large, is willing to condemn people facing delays in treatment to death.  Get off your high horse.
> 
> I did say we as a society are collective cowards. I never once excluded myself from society.
> 
> I want you to point to the PPC MP that is effecting change in the house of commons. I'll wait.


YOU think it’s a cop out.  You can’t wrap your head around a grey issue.  It isn’t as black and white as you are portraying it. 

Expect whatever you want.  Don’t be shocked when people find your position un Canadian and gross.  You’ve managed to actually unite both sides of the COVID debate on this forum against your position.  Well done. 

No high horse my friend,  just calling your opinion out for what it is.  Gross.  And thank god we don’t live in a country that supports that.  It’s the way our medical system approaches medical care for all.  That isn’t a high horse, it’s accepting that my personal opinions and emotions don’t get in the way. 

You voted for a party that supports free range COVID.  No restrictions, no masks, free for all vaccines.  I don’t care why you voted for them.  YOU supported that.  

Wait all you want.  Thankfully they didn’t get elected.  Still does not change how you voted.   Cry hypocrite all you want, you’ve shown where you stand on that with the biggest political tool you could use.   With the popular vote increase, (yours included) you legitimize the PPC stance on this.  They’ll likely qualify for the debate next time.  Good job you. 

Keep melting down over this.  Your emotions on this is EXACTLY why your course of action is not wanted or acceptable.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Not making a decision is making a decision.
> 
> What do people not get about that?


Decisions are being made every day.  NOT making YOUR decision doesn’t make that indecision.  

That’s what you aren’t getting.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> You voted for a party that supports free range COVID.


Awkward.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Nah, lets not open that can of worms
> 
> Unless you also want to go after smokers, the overweight, drinkers, anyone with a motorcycle...





Altair said:


> I mean, even Trudeau is against things like vaccine passports.
> 
> So I assume classic liberals still exist in the mainstream.
> 
> When covid spread unchecked, putting our weak healthcare system at risk, restrictions made sense.
> 
> But 80 percent of eligible canadians have their first dose, and it stands to reason if someone was willing to have their first, they will have their second. So we are looking at 80 percent uptake on vaccines.
> 
> I don't understand the reasons for this complete risk aversion and nanny state nonsense that we see happening now. I thank god that most premiers are not going down that road, but I am seeing a disturbing amount of individuals like quirky all too willing to have the state and businesses allow for a two tier society, where some people are more equal than others for whatever the reason.





Altair said:


> It's very clumsy.
> 
> And a slippery slope.
> 
> I personally detest smokers.
> 
> I do not appreciate cancer sticks.
> 
> People who smoke are a net drain on society and a burden  on our health care system.
> 
> Should we as a society be talking about balancing individuals rights versus collective good in the case of smokers?





Altair said:


> Yes, why stop there?
> 
> Smokers cannot work certain jobs?
> 
> Smokers are banned from certain establishments?
> 
> Sounds odd, does it not?
> 
> I'm never for letting businesses or governments legislate rights away from people.
> 
> Probably because can remember stories about certain people needing to sit at the back of the bus, or drink from the colored fountains, based on the popular opinion at the time.



Stop with the accusations of hypocrisy.

5 months ago you were foaming at the mouth - even invoking Rosa Parks - in response to the suggestion that those who decide to be unvaccinated should be aware that their decision may result in difficulties in accessing services.

Seems you and Quirky are now in agreement.  At least Quirky is consistent.


----------



## Altair

Mick said:


> Stop with the accusations of hypocrisy.
> 
> 5 months ago you were foaming at the mouth - even invoking Rosa Parks - in response to the suggestion that those who decide to be unvaccinated should be aware that their decision may result in difficulties in accessing services.
> 
> Seems you and Quirky are now in agreement.  At least Quirky is consistent.


this was when vaccines was seen as the way out. 

Those days are over.


----------



## PMedMoe

Altair said:


> this was when vaccines was seen as the way out.
> 
> Those days are over.



Really?  Because in Ontario, the unvaccinated still outnumber the vaccinated when it comes to hospital and ICU numbers.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’m not one of the unvaccinated.  I am one of those other people you were referring to.


So you are okay with treatments being delayed because people are making the choice to avoid doing the 1 thing to that can prevent them taking up a hospital bed?


Eye In The Sky said:


> Happy?  Is there a “happy” in this conversation? I am comfortable and confident the medical experts are treating the day to day prioritization of patients IAW ethically and legally acceptable practices in Canada.  And I don’t envy their job of making those decisions.


The policy is killing people none the less, if you can be comfortable and confident in that, you do you.


Eye In The Sky said:


> Is the cancer patient a smoker?  Consumed copious amounts of fast food?  Didn’t exercise?  Because they are “clogging down the system”…and for the greater good, I agree with you Scrooge - better if they die, and decrease the surplus population…


Again, if the health care system was being brought to the brink due to these groups, my opinion wouldn't change.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> I wish my friend had that chance.



I’m sorry about your friend; truly.  I sat 3 feet away from a friend this summer when he passed from cancer.   Christmas Eve will be 6 months and I will remember him with a toast and a moment to remember his life.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> YOU think it’s a cop out.  You can’t wrap your head around a grey issue.  It isn’t as black and white as you are portraying it.


It's cop out. Naturally neither of us need to make that call, but I asked your opinion, what would you say in that situation?

Crickets.


Remius said:


> Expect whatever you want.  Don’t be shocked when people find your position un Canadian and gross.  You’ve managed to actually unite both sides of the COVID debate on this forum against your position.  Well done.


Well, I'll always have Quirky. 


Remius said:


> No high horse my friend,  just calling your opinion out for what it is.  Gross.  And thank god we don’t live in a country that supports that.  It’s the way our medical system approaches medical care for all.  That isn’t a high horse, it’s accepting that my personal opinions and emotions don’t get in the way.


Sometimes gross and hard decisions are necessary. That's what triage is all about. And since we are in a situation where health care is being rationed out, I think a frank talk on our current triage policies is in order.


Remius said:


> You voted for a party that supports free range COVID.  No restrictions, no masks, free for all vaccines.  I don’t care why you voted for them.  YOU supported that.


Well, I donated to the LPC, I guess it's a wash. 

Christ. 


Remius said:


> Wait all you want.  Thankfully they didn’t get elected.  Still does not change how you voted.   Cry hypocrite all you want, you’ve shown where you stand on that with the biggest political tool you could use.   With the popular vote increase, (yours included) you legitimize the PPC stance on this.  They’ll likely qualify for the debate next time.  Good job you.


Oh yes, I am hoping they do. Whatever hobbles the CPC.


Remius said:


> Keep melting down over this.










Remius said:


> Your emotions on this is EXACTLY why your course of action is not wanted or acceptable.


Policy is changed because of emotions all the time. 

Travel bans do nothing, but they feel good so the government does them.


----------



## Altair

PMedMoe said:


> Really?  Because in Ontario, the unvaccinated still outnumber the vaccinated when it comes to hospital and ICU numbers.


Oh, I know. 

That's why the unvaccinated are killing others by denying them care. 

But even with vaccines in 85 percent of people this pandemic is still rolling along, with new variants popping up all the time, vaccines are not leading to a normal life. Hospitals are still at risk, even with a highly vaccinated population. So what is the solution now? Where do we stand? There is one group of people prolonging this for everyone, it's them in the hospitals denying care to others, so what else do we do?

Another year or two of intermittent lockdowns? Seriously, what is the way out?


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> I’m sorry about your friend; truly.  I sat 3 feet away from a friend this summer when he passed from cancer.   Christmas Eve will be 6 months and I will remember him with a toast and a moment to remember his life.


Well, I'll be there soon enough.


----------



## Quirky

Eye In The Sky said:


> Take the smokers and obese people who are vaccinated and keep them out of the hospitals.  They’re also making bad choices that negatively impact the health care system.
> 
> Eat processed meats?  Sorry - you’re also banned.   Any other form of avoidable CAD?  Sorry.
> 
> Don’t eat the Food guide recommended serving of vegetables and fruit?  Sorry - out you go.
> 
> I guess all we have to do is ban anyone who makes bad lifestyle choices.  Problem solved.


None of those bad life choices result in closed arenas, bars, gyms, mask wearing, capacity limits to events and travel bans/restrictions. But totally the same thing as being afraid of a needle and modern medicine. I don’t remember my family members surgeries being cancelled because a fat POS smoker pandemic was clogging ICUs. Great logic.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> Well, I'll be there soon enough.



I can see where your stance comes from, or perhaps understand a little better your 'hard line'.  I'll bow out of back and forth with you, out of respect for your friend - if you ever need to vent to someone who gets it a little....fire something my way.


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> That's why the unvaccinated are killing others by denying them care. Another year or two of intermittent lockdowns? Seriously, what is the way out?


There is no way out of this until we stop making society implicating decisions based on emotion. 

I see the NFL games at full capacity with no idiotic masking outdoors meanwhile we are cancelling NHL games in Canada. NFL is petitioning vaccinated players to continue playing if they don’t exhibit symptoms - this is the way forward. Get your vaccine, move on with life. Canadas response has always been because of our shit healthcare system that can’t deal with surges, yet Canadians are stil smug and cocky because free hEaLtHcAre. This will only get worse.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> None of those bad life choices result in closed arenas, bars, gyms, mask wearing, capacity limits to events and travel bans/restrictions. But totally the same thing as being afraid of a needle and modern medicine. I don’t remember my family members surgeries being cancelled because a fat POS smoker pandemic was clogging ICUs. Great logic.



You're saying those _bad lifestyle choices_ didn't, aren't and won't contribute to a failing HCS, before/during/after the COVID pandemic?

And question my logic?


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> There is no way out of this until we stop making society implicating decisions based on emotion.
> 
> I see the NFL games at full capacity with no idiotic masking outdoors meanwhile we are cancelling NHL games in Canada. NFL is petitioning vaccinated players to continue playing if they don’t exhibit symptoms - this is the way forward. Get your vaccine, move on with life. Canadas response has always been because of our shit healthcare system that can’t deal with surges, yet Canadians are stil smug and cocky because free hEaLtHcAre. This will only get worse.


I don't think people realize what has transpired in the last few months.

We vaccinated just about everyone who is willing to be vaccinated. And then a new variant popped up and is hitting the vaccinated population and the unvaccinated population to the point where global lockdowns are happening again.

In short, we as a society just used our best shot against covid and it shrugged it off.

There is no effective way out of this as things currently stand.

We cannot double or triple our capacity anytime soon.

We cannot vaccinate 85 percent of the population and be sufficiently protected, and have hospitals function.

We cannot force the unvaccinated to vaccinate.

So this pattern of rush to vaccinate followed by new variant kicking our ass and shutting down society to save the hospitals may be the new norm, as we cannot find a way out of this. We are essentially stuck in a holding pattern until covid itself decides its done with us, if it ever is.

So lockdowns, massive deficits, supply chain issues, social distancing and masks, surgical and treatment backlogs, this is our future until covid says otherwise because we cannot vaccinate our way out of this as things currently stand.

The only thing that can change that is the one thing I've been saying, which will allow for much more hospital capacity. But of course people view that as evil somehow, and would rather live like 2019 was the last normal year for God knows how long.


----------



## ModlrMike

If the alternative is to live like 1919 where we had 50,000,000 deaths... no thank you.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I don’t remember my family members surgeries being cancelled because a fat POS smoker pandemic was clogging ICUs.



Well, that's very specific.  But there are long waiting lists for some kinds of surgeries because fat POS's do put more wear on the body parts those surgeries reconstruct.  And every fat POS smoker who requires medical services means the people providing those services are unavailable to provide services to someone else, or even different kinds of services.

There's no way in which the argument can be finessed to pretend that people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to vaccine refusal are in a special category separate from all people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to lifestyle/choices.


----------



## dapaterson

Hospitalization and ICU risk are at least an order of magnitude greater for unvaccinated people compared to those with at least two doses:. 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473280718210015235


----------



## OldSolduer

The Canada Health Act and the various provincial laws pretty much dictate you can't refuse medical treatment to anyone. It's universal health care. 

So the idea of refusing treatment to an anti vaxxer probably won't fly and I bet the Supreme Court of Canada would agree.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, that's very specific.  But there are long waiting lists for some kinds of surgeries because fat POS's do put more wear on the body parts those surgeries reconstruct.  And *every fat POS smoker who requires medical services *means the people providing those services are unavailable to provide services to someone else, or even different kinds of services.
> 
> There's no way in which the argument can be finessed to pretend that people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to vaccine refusal are in a special category separate from all people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to lifestyle/choices.



Like my mother?


----------



## Blackadder1916

And in the category of pandemic induced associated arseholery . . .  (the pandemic doesn't induce arseholery; an arsehole before the pandemic remains an arsehole)









						Florida man kicked off flight after trying to wear women's underwear as a face mask
					

A Florida man was kicked off of an United Airlines flight for wearing women's underwear over his nose and mouth instead of a mask.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				





> Florida man kicked off flight after trying to wear women's underwear as a face mask​A Florida man was kicked off of an United Airlines flight earlier this week for wearing women’s underwear over his nose and mouth instead of a mask.
> 
> Video taken by another passenger on the Fort Lauderdale flight showed Adam Jenne sitting in an airplane seat with a red thong stretched over his face, telling airplane attendants that it counted as a mask before they escorted him off the plane.
> 
> "The customer clearly wasn’t in compliance with the federal mask mandate and we appreciate that our team addressed the issue on the ground prior to takeoff, avoiding any potential disruptions on the air," United Airlines said in a statement shared with CNN affiliate WFTX.
> 
> Jenne claims that he wanted to highlight how he doesn’t think it makes sense to make customers wear a mask until cruising altitude and then let them unmask to eat and drink.
> 
> In other interview clips, Jenne said he has worn the underwear on other flights during the pandemic.
> 
> He also compared himself to Rosa Parks, and said that he doesn’t wear a mask in the airport at all apart from going through security.
> 
> Jenne called it an “injustice” that he was removed from the flight in an interview with WFTX.
> 
> “You don’t get to tell me how I conduct myself,” he said.
> 
> . . .


----------



## Altair

ModlrMike said:


> If the alternative is to live like 1919 where we had 50,000,000 deaths... no thank you.


Okay  

We have 3 choices.

1.Continue living life like 2020 and 2021 until covid evolves to be less deadly or less contagious.

2.Forcibly vaccinate everyone against their will.

3. Cut support to the unvaccinated. 

You're saying you pick option 1?


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> The Canada Health Act and the various provincial laws pretty much dictate you can't refuse medical treatment to anyone. It's universal health care.
> 
> So the idea of refusing treatment to an anti vaxxer probably won't fly and I bet the Supreme Court of Canada would agree.


So those forced to die at home because of canceled surgeries and treatments have a case then?


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, that's very specific.  But there are long waiting lists for some kinds of surgeries because fat POS's do put more wear on the body parts those surgeries reconstruct.  And every fat POS smoker who requires medical services means the people providing those services are unavailable to provide services to someone else, or even different kinds of services.
> 
> There's no way in which the argument can be finessed to pretend that people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to vaccine refusal are in a special category separate from all people who have an adverse impact on medical resources due to lifestyle/choices.


If it satisfies you, can we start with the unvaccinated and if the system doesn't improve we move on to the next group?


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:


> And in the category of pandemic induced associated arseholery . . .  (the pandemic doesn't induce arseholery; an arsehole before the pandemic remains an arsehole)



Maybe the pandemic has brought out the best in people ( our front-line, essential and health-care workers ), and the worst in others.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You're saying you pick option 1?



Option 1 is status quo.  No-one needs to choose it, it just is.



> So those forced to die at home because of canceled surgeries and treatments have a case then?



Case for what?  Refusal on grounds of "no capacity" isn't penalized.



> If it satisfies you, can we start with the unvaccinated and if the system doesn't improve we move on to the next group?



No.  No special exception to pander to your fears.


----------



## QV

We’re still talking about a virus where 99.993% under 45 survive and 99.93% under 65 survive, right? Has that ratio changed with omicron?

Vaccine uptake in our society for this is probably higher than any other coronavirus vaccine in history. Mandated or face job loss in many cases… while pharma is granted immunity from liability, no less… Yet we have tons and tons of new cases.. so booster!

We’ve never had people collapsing in the streets like our Chinese propaganda videos at the start showed.

Our hospitals were overwhelmed before Covid. Lots of tik tok videos and empty halls during. And now they fire staff… during a pandemic where they’re short staffed and overwhelmed because they’re not vaccinated against the virus that doesn’t care about your vax status?

And some are talking about forced vaccines and withholding medical treatment?  Sometimes I get the impression Altair floats LPC policy on discussion forums to temperature check the response before it’s rolled out.

This all sounds like a god damned farce. And people are: “this is right, I’m ok with all this”


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> We’re still talking about a virus where 99.993% under 45 survive and 99.93% under 65 survive, right? Has that ratio changed with omicron?


Do hospitalizations next.


QV said:


> Vaccine uptake in our society for this is probably higher than any other coronavirus vaccine in history. Mandated or face job loss in many cases… while pharma is granted immunity from liability, no less… Yet we have tons and tons of new cases.. so booster!


And yet we are still in this pandemic. 

what are the next steps?


QV said:


> We’ve never had people collapsing in the streets like our Chinese propaganda videos at the start showed.
> 
> Our hospitals were overwhelmed before Covid. Lots of tik tok videos and empty halls during. And now they fire staff… during a pandemic where they’re short staffed and overwhelmed because they’re not vaccinated against the virus that doesn’t care about your vax status?


empty halls in wings where people need stuff like cancer treatment or hip replacements says all we need to know.


QV said:


> And some are talking about forced vaccines and withholding medical treatment?  Sometimes I get the impression Altair floats LPC policy on discussion forums to temperature check the response before it’s rolled out.


dear God I wish.


QV said:


> This all sounds like a god damned farce. And people are: “this is right, I’m ok with all this”


Covid is a hoax, I know. So let those who think covid is a hoax deal with covid at home and not clog up the hospitals.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Option 1 is status quo.  No-one needs to choose it, it just is.


Choosing to follow the status quo is a choice.


Brad Sallows said:


> Case for what?  Refusal on grounds of "no capacity" isn't penalized.





> The Canada Health Act and the various provincial laws pretty much dictate you can't refuse medical treatment to anyone. It's universal health care.


Says nothing about penalizing.




Brad Sallows said:


> No.  No special exception to pander to your fears.


Meh.


----------



## Remius

Saying it many times over in the mirror isn’t going to make your unvaccinated death wish appear you know.


----------



## kev994

dapaterson said:


> Hospitalization and ICU risk are at least an order of magnitude greater for unvaccinated people compared to those with at least two doses:.
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1473280718210015235


And it’s only just begun.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

This thread is now accurately summarized as…


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Saying it many times over in the mirror isn’t going to make your unvaccinated death wish appear you know.


What is your solution to our current situation?


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> This thread is now accurately summarized as…


The irony is that's the way our lives are going to be until covid decides its done with us.

Round and round we go with lockdowns and massive societal costs.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> We’ve never had people collapsing in the streets like our Chinese propaganda videos at the start showed.



Closer to home,  many never made it to a hospital.

Whatever the cause of death was, out of hospital non-traumatic cardiac arrests rose dramatically during the pandemic.









						COVID-19 Pandemic Dramatically Increased Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest Cases and Deaths in New York City | Albert Einstein College of Medicine
					

Researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Montefiore Health System and FDNY discover rise in cardiac arrest cases during COVID-19 pandemic.




					einsteinmed.edu
				






> The study, published online today in _JAMA Cardiology_, found a three-fold increase in out-of-hospital non-traumatic cardiac-arrest cases in March and April 2020 compared to the same period in 2019. On the worst day—April 6—cardiac arrests peaked at 305 cases, an increase of nearly 10-fold compared with the same day one year earlier. The mortality rate for cardiac-arrest cases also rose, from 75% in 2019 to more than 90% during the same period in 2020.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Saying it many times over in the mirror isn’t going to make your unvaccinated death wish appear you know.


How long do you think society is going to follow these yo-yo lockdowns?

The day is coming when the public tunes out public health authorities. Then we are really going to see covid loose.

And then nobody will be getting access to health care


----------



## daftandbarmy

New restrictions announced in BC today:

*Bars, gyms told to close to slow the spread of Omicron; no indoor weddings, parties*

Bars, nightclubs, gyms, fitness centres and dance studios will be closed until Jan. 18. All organized indoor gatherings, such as weddings and Christmas parties, must be cancelled.

New provincial health orders will come into effect Wednesday at midnight to try to slow the rapid spread of the Omicron variant of the COVID-19 virus and prevent B.C.’s health-care system being overwhelmed.

Bars, nightclubs, gyms, fitness centres and dance studios will be closed until Jan. 18. *All organized indoor gatherings, such as weddings and Christmas parties, must be cancelled. Sports tournaments will also be cancelled.

Restaurants, pubs and cafes are still able to operate with a maximum of six people per table and space between the tables.*

Concert, theatre, movie and sports venues will be limited to 50 per cent capacity, regardless of size, with masking and vaccination-checking.

*Personal gatherings are limited to your household plus one other household or 10 guests, all vaccinated.*

Non-urgent surgeries will be cancelled.

The government also announced an expansion of its vaccine booster program starting in January when large venues, such at the Vancouver Convention Centre, will become mass immunization sites.

Bars, gyms told to close to slow the spread of Omicron; no indoor weddings, parties


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> What is your solution to our current situation?


What difference would it make?  And what difference would repeating it here a million times do? 

I know what I would like to see but I’m not sure if it would be feasible or possible.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> What difference would it make?  And what difference would repeating it here a million times do?
> 
> I know what I would like to see but I’m not sure if it would be feasible or possible.


Don't be shy, what would you like to see?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> Don't be shy, what would you like to see?



The country that set this Pandemic into motion held responsible and reparations made.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> The country that set this Pandemic into motion held responsible and reparations made.


Cool.

Shame that's not a way out going forward.

Alas, I suppose I'm not surprised.

I merely await the day that we throw up the mission accomplished banner like the UK and USA did and let covid rip.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Don't be shy, what would you like to see?



So first off, I’m not looking to start a 10 page debate with you.  I’ll post and leave it at that.  Just musing and my own thoughts on it. 

1. rapid tests.  Get them out,  and I mean flood the country with them. Mail them to everyone and not in the half assed way they are doing it now.   That would help with keeping the spread down if people could test at home before risking a trip to see family. Not full proof but would help.  It would also alleviate the testing sites with people going in because it’s the only place to test. 

2. Deploy our Military more efficiently.  If this is the crisis of our time then deploy them accordingly.  A few doctors and nurses here and there does help but we could deploy med techs, PAs etc.  Not so much to treat COVID or ICUs but take on other medical issues.  And not even serious ones.  911 and first responders could divert non life threatening issues to stand up MIRs to alleviate hospital emergency rooms.  Again I don’t know how feasible that is.   We also were able to train soldiers to do TCCC.  Maybe do something similar on a low end scale for certain issues on a temporary basis.  Like administering vaccine needles.  One less nurse giving a needle is one more nurse in a hospital. 

You could do the same with St John Ambulance types, students in certain fields etc etc. 

3. Mandate vaccines for all students at school.  We have online options now. Those that refuse stay home. 

4. Better reaction time.  Omicron was picked up weeks ago.  We are reacting now.  We should react like shit will hit the fan before it does. 

5. Deploy N95 masks to everyone. Or have them on hand at all public transit areas and public taxpayer funded area. 


The problem with all of this is that I, like you, am not a public health manager or even an emergency preparedness expert.  So all of this is just worth the 2 cents that it’s worth.


----------



## mariomike

I wonder if there will be a return to the 7 PM ritual of sirens and pot banging?

Mission accomplished! ( I thought. )

I've had 2 Astra-Zenicas and I Moderna. I wonder how many more boosters to go?

I've seen some funny cartoons of people wearing gas masks, with band-aids running up and down both arms. Calendar says, "2030".  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244041638240030722


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> So first off, I’m not looking to start a 10 page debate with you.  I’ll post and leave it at that.  Just musing and my own thoughts on it.
> 
> 1. rapid tests.  Get them out,  and I mean flood the country with them. Mail them to everyone and not in the half assed way they are doing it now.   That would help with keeping the spread down if people could test at home before risking a trip to see family. Not full proof but would help.  It would also alleviate the testing sites with people going in because it’s the only place to test.
> 
> 2. Deploy our Military more efficiently.  If this is the crisis of our time then deploy them accordingly.  A few doctors and nurses here and there does help but we could deploy med techs, PAs etc.  Not so much to treat COVID or ICUs but take on other medical issues.  And not even serious ones.  911 and first responders could divert non life threatening issues to stand up MIRs to alleviate hospital emergency rooms.  Again I don’t know how feasible that is.   We also were able to train soldiers to do TCCC.  Maybe do something similar on a low end scale for certain issues on a temporary basis.  Like administering vaccine needles.  One less nurse giving a needle is one more nurse in a hospital.
> 
> You could do the same with St John Ambulance types, students in certain fields etc etc.
> 
> 3. Mandate vaccines for all students at school.  We have online options now. Those that refuse stay home.
> 
> 4. Better reaction time.  Omicron was picked up weeks ago.  We are reacting now.  We should react like shit will hit the fan before it does.
> 
> 5. Deploy N95 masks to everyone. Or have them on hand at all public transit areas and public taxpayer funded area.
> 
> 
> The problem with all of this is that I, like you, am not a public health manager or even an emergency preparedness expert.  So all of this is just worth the 2 cents that it’s worth.


I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but 1,4 and 5 are being done in Europe and they are being hammered just as badly as anyone else.

These things help but they are around the margins.

That said, you want me to shut up, fine, I'll shut up about it.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but 1,4 and 5 are being done in Europe and they are being hammered just as badly as anyone else.
> 
> These things help but they are around the margins.
> 
> That said, you want me to shut up, fine, I'll shut up about it.


You are free to say whatever you want.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Global news had a guy on tonight who basically said "everyone" is going to be exposed in the next few weeks, and since we can't test everybody, let's stop testing for a while.
Stuff was going on around me so I didn't get it all but I think he was saying let's just concentrate on booster shots and not waste testing kits and personal right now.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Altair said:


> Don't be shy, what would you like to see?


 
I know this was directed at @Remius but allow me to jump in. What I would like to see, is the approach advocated by Col (Ret'd) David Redman, former Head of Emergency Management Alberta. His seven-point plan:

1. Release a comprehensive, Four Goal-based Pandemic Plan, showing what is to be done Phase by Phase, and what the public’s role is in each phase. The four goals being:
• Controlling the spread of COVID-19 disease and reducing illness (morbidity) and death (mortality) by providing access to appropriate prevention measures, care, and treatment.
• Mitigating societal disruption through ensuring the continuity and recovery of critical services.
• Minimizing adverse economic impact.
• Supporting an efficient and effective use of resources during response and recovery

2. Vigorously enact a plan to protect our most vulnerable (those over age 60 with multiple co-morbidities).

3. Ensure all critical infrastructure (including but not limited to hospitals) is ready for people who get sick and who need to take sick days.

4. Remove the fear campaign from the media. This needs a PLAN and will not be easy. Governments’ and the MOHs’ daily facts must be given with context. There is no need to announce how many people have tested positive from Covid 19 each day. Be ready with solid messaging that, with the context of what we know now, the way ahead is not based on case count but rather on a confidence that we have the medical resources in our system, and speak to all Four Goals of the Pandemic Plan

5. End all talk of future lock downs and loosen social distancing rules. Making people fear each other is always the wrong approach to any challenge.

6. Guarantee to keep schools and day cares open, with relaxed social distancing like in Sweden.

7. Get everyone under 65 without pre-existing compromised immune systems, who can and want to work, fully back to work.

8. Continue to vaccinate as vaccines become available, for the *current* strain of Covid 19.


With the caveat WRT #8 that in my view mandatory or coerced vaccination is unethical, illegal, and unnecessary.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Global news had a guy on tonight who basically said "everyone" is going to be exposed in the next few weeks, and since we can't test everybody, let's stop testing for a while.
> Stuff was going on around me so I didn't get it all but I think he was saying let's just concentrate on booster shots and not waste testing kits and personal right now.


It’s pretty much what is happening in Ottawa.  If you have symptoms assume you have it and stay home and isolate.


----------



## Mick

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I know this was directed at @Remius but allow me to jump in. What I would like to see, is the approach advocated by Col (Ret'd) David Redman, former Head of Emergency Management Alberta. His seven-point plan:
> 
> 1. Release a comprehensive, Four Goal-based Pandemic Plan, showing what is to be done Phase by Phase, and what the public’s role is in each phase. The four goals being:
> • Controlling the spread of COVID-19 disease and reducing illness (morbidity) and death (mortality) by providing access to appropriate prevention measures, care, and treatment.
> • Mitigating societal disruption through ensuring the continuity and recovery of critical services.
> • Minimizing adverse economic impact.
> • Supporting an efficient and effective use of resources during response and recovery
> 
> 2. Vigorously enact a plan to protect our most vulnerable (those over age 60 with multiple co-morbidities).
> 
> 3. Ensure all critical infrastructure (including but not limited to hospitals) is ready for people who get sick and who need to take sick days.
> 
> 4. Remove the fear campaign from the media. This needs a PLAN and will not be easy. Governments’ and the MOHs’ daily facts must be given with context. There is no need to announce how many people have tested positive from Covid 19 each day. Be ready with solid messaging that, with the context of what we know now, the way ahead is not based on case count but rather on a confidence that we have the medical resources in our system, and speak to all Four Goals of the Pandemic Plan
> 
> 5. End all talk of future lock downs and loosen social distancing rules. Making people fear each other is always the wrong approach to any challenge.
> 
> 6. Guarantee to keep schools and day cares open, with relaxed social distancing like in Sweden.
> 
> 7. Get everyone under 65 without pre-existing compromised immune systems, who can and want to work, fully back to work.
> 
> 8. Continue to vaccinate as vaccines become available, for the *current* strain of Covid 19.
> 
> 
> With the caveat WRT #8 that in my view mandatory or coerced vaccination is unethical, illegal, and unnecessary.


Does Mr. Redman elaborate on how to achieve any of these goals?  That would certainly be helpful.


----------



## mariomike

LittleBlackDevil said:


> With Ithe caveat WRT #8 that in my view mandatory or coerced vaccination is unethical, illegal, and unnecessary.



Different employers may have different mandates. Or, none at all.  YMMV


----------



## Remius

Six more Ottawa paramedics test positive for COVID-19; service impact 'minimal'
					

Ottawa's paramedic chief says another six members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19 following an outbreak linked to an off-duty social event, bringing the total to 36 cases.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> Six more Ottawa paramedics test positive for COVID-19; service impact 'minimal'
> 
> 
> Ottawa's paramedic chief says another six members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19 following an outbreak linked to an off-duty social event, bringing the total to 36 cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawa.ctvnews.ca





> "As members of our service follow strict infection control and Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) protocols, the risk of exposure is considered low to moderate," Poirier wrote in the memo.



Riiiiiiigt.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> It’s pretty much what is happening in Ottawa.  If you have symptoms assume you have it and stay home and isolate.



Lol ok. No, don't think I'd be doing that. That's beyond lunacy especially if someone is vaccinated. 

We have vaccines. Do you think we are staving off the end of humanity or something? 

We will keep going into these endless waves because of unvaccinated. Stop reacting to cases. Prepare health system to handle the unvaccinated during waves, or deny/delay their access. Win-win. The majority of Canadians have done their part, and are largely ignoring fear mongering capacity limits and mandates, there's no point in restrictions. Stop punishing the vaccinated, and get on with life. The idea we need to protect the unvaccinated is laughable. 



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Stuff was going on around me so I didn't get it all but I think he was saying let's just concentrate on booster shots and not waste testing kits and personal right now.



The kinds of people who are using these tests are basically Munchhausen candidates. They will use these kits and go to a government site to get tested again. "Keep testing me until I get a positive!"


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Lol ok. No, don't think I'd be doing that. That's beyond lunacy especially if someone is vaccinated.
> 
> We have vaccines. Do you think we are staving off the end of humanity or something?
> 
> We will keep going into these endless waves because of unvaccinated. Stop reacting to cases. Prepare health system to handle the unvaccinated during waves, or deny/delay their access. Win-win. The majority of Canadians have done their part, and are largely ignoring fear mongering capacity limits and mandates, there's no point in restrictions. Stop punishing the vaccinated, and get on with life. The idea we need to protect the unvaccinated is laughable.
> 
> 
> 
> The kinds of people who are using these tests are basically Munchhausen candidates. They will use these kits and go to a government site to get tested again. "Keep testing me until I get a positive!"


I’m just telling you what OPH communicated.









						COVID-19 testing capacity in Ottawa pushed to limit; OPH urging symptomatic people to isolate
					

Ottawa Public Health is urging all residents who have any COVID-19 symptoms to assume they have contracted the virus and self-isolate as testing capacity is pushed to its limit in the face of the Omicron variant.




					ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Altair

FIRST READING: Canadians may not be so sure about locking down this time
					

More than 40 per cent of Ontarians are already promising to violate public health orders urging them to cancel Christmas dinner




					nationalpost.com
				






> In a recent Forum Research poll, up to *42 per cent of Ontarians said they would still be gathering with extended family this Christmas*, in spite of Ontario’s top doctor Kieran Moore recommending that Christmas dinners with older family members could only safely be done outdoors and with masks.
> Earlier this month, *72 per cent of respondents to a Maru Public Opinion poll said they would not be changing travel plans in response to Omicron*. A majority of those polled (54 per cent) also said they weren’t worried about contracting the variant.
> An Ipsos poll last week found that 56 per cent of Canadians would endorse an Omicron lockdown, but that was down from a rate of 69 per cent recorded in July. As a proportion of the population, *that’s an extra five million Canadians now in the anti-lockdown camp*.
> A Leger poll from early December found that 68 per cent of respondents were okay with a return to social distancing, but that this was down from the 80 per cent seen in earlier polls. “*I don’t think Canadians are looking forward to having to go back there*,” Leger’s Christian Bourque told the Canadian Press at the time.



Yeah, people are caring less and less about what public health has to say.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> FIRST READING: Canadians may not be so sure about locking down this time
> 
> 
> More than 40 per cent of Ontarians are already promising to violate public health orders urging them to cancel Christmas dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, people are caring less and less about what public health has to say.


Yep.  And we are where we are.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Yep.  And we are where we are.


Those numbers will continue to trend in those directions until politicians finally read the tea leaves and just let covid rip through the community like the UK and USA, where lockdowns are political suicide. 

Pray for the healthcare system when that day comes, that's all I'm going to say on that matter.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Six more Ottawa paramedics test positive for COVID-19; service impact 'minimal'
> 
> 
> Ottawa's paramedic chief says another six members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19 following an outbreak linked to an off-duty social event, bringing the total to 36 cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawa.ctvnews.ca



Were there any social gathering limits in effect in Ottawa back on 15 Dec.? ( Not a rhetorical question. )

I read that social gatherings in Ottawa are now limited to 10 people. But, that did not come into effect until 20 Dec.






						Provincial and City rules  | City of Ottawa
					






					ottawa.ca
				




From what I have read, all Ottawa paramedics have been double vaxxed since at least 15 Nov.


----------



## Remius

Nope. There wasn’t any.  I do know around that time we cancelled our office get together that was planned for this week. 

My guess is they likely debated and assessed that it was low risk.  Guessed wrong I guess.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Policy has almost always lagged general public response.  People began informally observing control measures before control measures were formalized.  And where people are more prone to follow authority, control measures have remained in effect more often than where people are less prone to follow authority.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> My guess is they likely debated and assessed that it was low risk.  Guessed wrong I guess.


You would think medial professionals would know better.  

My CO canceled our Christmas dinner before we had official restrictions in place; I though it was very proactive and smart.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> You would think medial professionals would know better.
> 
> My CO canceled our Christmas dinner before we had official restrictions in place; I though it was very proactive and smart.


Not sure what the assessment would have been at the time.  If the social function was the 15th I wonder when they would have made that call.  There were no capacity limits as far as I know. 

I know where I work we made the call to cancel around that time if not before.  

It was pretty obvious where we were heading.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> My CO canceled our Christmas dinner before we had official restrictions in place; I though it was very proactive and smart.



Sounds like it was unofficial.

The memo from the chief to the city, sounds like he may not have known about it - until after the fact.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> You would think medial professionals would know better.


People don't give a damn about this anymore. 

All the "official" parties will be canceled, all the "unofficial" get togethers will be well attended.


----------



## QV

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I know this was directed at @Remius but allow me to jump in. What I would like to see, is the approach advocated by Col (Ret'd) David Redman, former Head of Emergency Management Alberta. His seven-point plan:
> 
> 1. Release a comprehensive, Four Goal-based Pandemic Plan, showing what is to be done Phase by Phase, and what the public’s role is in each phase. The four goals being:
> • Controlling the spread of COVID-19 disease and reducing illness (morbidity) and death (mortality) by providing access to appropriate prevention measures, care, and treatment.
> • Mitigating societal disruption through ensuring the continuity and recovery of critical services.
> • Minimizing adverse economic impact.
> • Supporting an efficient and effective use of resources during response and recovery
> 
> 2. Vigorously enact a plan to protect our most vulnerable (those over age 60 with multiple co-morbidities).
> 
> 3. Ensure all critical infrastructure (including but not limited to hospitals) is ready for people who get sick and who need to take sick days.
> 
> 4. Remove the fear campaign from the media. This needs a PLAN and will not be easy. Governments’ and the MOHs’ daily facts must be given with context. There is no need to announce how many people have tested positive from Covid 19 each day. Be ready with solid messaging that, with the context of what we know now, the way ahead is not based on case count but rather on a confidence that we have the medical resources in our system, and speak to all Four Goals of the Pandemic Plan
> 
> 5. End all talk of future lock downs and loosen social distancing rules. Making people fear each other is always the wrong approach to any challenge.
> 
> 6. Guarantee to keep schools and day cares open, with relaxed social distancing like in Sweden.
> 
> 7. Get everyone under 65 without pre-existing compromised immune systems, who can and want to work, fully back to work.
> 
> 8. Continue to vaccinate as vaccines become available, for the *current* strain of Covid 19.
> 
> 
> With the caveat WRT #8 that in my view mandatory or coerced vaccination is unethical, illegal, and unnecessary.


The criticism from the beginning was that the authorities abandoned all of these plans that were already in place.

Edit to add: Second U of G professor goes public with criticism of vaccine mandates


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> There were no capacity limits as far as I know.



This is not directed towards you, Remius, or anyone in particular. I was just reading some of comments in the Ottawa media.

Maybe some of their blame and shame should be directed towards the Province of Ontario and the City of Ottawa for not bringing capacity limits in sooner.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> This is not directed towards you, Remius, or anyone in particular. I was just reading some of comments in the Ottawa media.
> 
> Maybe some of their blame and shame should be directed towards the Province of Ontario and the City of Ottawa for not bringing capacity limits in sooner.


Who is going to be listening to them at this point?


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> Who is going to be listening to them at this point?



I don't know much about enforcement, but can business establishments, and patrons, not be fined, or places lose their liqour licences?


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> I don't know much about enforcement, but can business establishments, and patrons, not be fined, or places lose their liqour licences?


Businesses sure. But how many holiday functions happen in someones home, with even less in terms of rules around social distancing and capacity limits?


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> Businesses sure. But how many holiday functions happen in someones home, with even less in terms of rules around social distancing and capacity limits?








						Ontario Newsroom
					






					news.ontario.ca
				




As I understand it, the rules only apply to places of business.

Private homes are only subject to recommendations. Correct me if I am wrong.

But, I recall news of some huge house parties getting enforced after mulitple complaints from neighbours.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> Ontario Newsroom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it, the rules only apply to places of business.
> 
> Private homes are only subject to recommendations. Correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> But, I recall news of some huge house parties getting enforced after mulitple complaints from neighbours.


In addition, to mitigate COVID-19 transmission that can occur at informal social gatherings, the province is also reducing social gathering limits to 10 people indoors and 25 people outdoors.


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> In addition, to mitigate COVID-19 transmission that can occur at informal social gatherings, the province is also reducing social gathering limits to 10 people indoors and 25 people outdoors.



I wonder what the fine would be for a private house party?


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Maybe some of their blame and shame should be directed towards the Province of Ontario and the City of Ottawa for not bringing capacity limits in sooner.


Blame the province and city for paramedics not having common sense?


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> I wonder what the fine would be for a private house party?


Unless the province and municipalities plan to raid every 4th house this week I doubt it matters much.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> Blame the province and city for paramedics not having common sense?



Blame and shame whoever you want, if it makes you feel better.

It was, A ) An unofficial gathering.   B ) They followed the provincial and muncipal rules.

Want to tell them where they can and can't go when off-duty and who they can associate with under the above circumstances?

That would first have to be negotiated with the union, perhaps arbitrated, before it was written into the collective agreement.

Same as Working Quarantine was.

These people didn't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of staying home during the pandemic. They will probably be working Christmas and New Year's too.

I don't blame them and would never shame them.


----------



## Remius

I think it’s more of a cautionary tale.  No blame.  Just that we are far from done with COVID.


----------



## Remius

Remius said:


> I think it’s more of a cautionary tale.  No blame.  Just that we are far from done with COVID.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-pandemic-service-staff-high-risk-contacs-outbreak-1.6295151


----------



## Brad Sallows

Not sure how much the official rules matter to anyone.  Unless I'm living in an alternate universe of my own imagination, there's a huge gap in practices between younger and older with respect to gatherings.  Everyone I know who is older or potentially has weak immunity is buttoned down tight beyond what is officially required.  Most of those who are younger are willing to party outside the limits of what is officially required.  I assume behaviour shifts gradually over the spectrum of age from one to the other.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Blame and shame whoever you want, if it makes you feel better.
> 
> It was, A ) An unofficial gathering.   B ) They followed the provincial and muncipal rules.
> 
> Want to tell them where they can and can't go when off-duty and who they can associate with under the above circumstances?
> 
> That would first have to be negotiated with the union, perhaps arbitrated, before it was written into the collective agreement.
> 
> *Same as Working Quarantine was.*
> 
> *These people didn't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of staying home during the pandemic. They will probably be working Christmas and New Year's too.*
> 
> I don't blame them and would never shame them.


They chose their careers, just like everyone else. They knew going in they'd  be working holidays and other times. They knew they'd have to work during medical emergencies. While I applaud their choice to help humanity, I feel no pity for the choice, or consequences, they made for themselves.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Not sure how much the official rules matter to anyone.  Unless I'm living in an alternate universe of my own imagination, there's a huge gap in practices between younger and older with respect to gatherings.  Everyone I know who is older or potentially has weak immunity is buttoned down tight beyond what is officially required.  Most of those who are younger are willing to party outside the limits of what is officially required.  I assume behaviour shifts gradually over the spectrum of age from one to the other.


Meh.

I know a few older people willing to go to family holiday get togethers because they are fit and able to see and play with the grandchildren and great grandchildren and they might not be by the time this thing is over.


If it ever is.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Blame and shame whoever you want, if it makes you feel better.


Or we could hold people accountable for their decisions and not look to place blame elsewhere.
If it makes you feel better units in the CAF are just as guilty going ahead with gatherings. Some pretty dumb calls out there all around. 



mariomike said:


> It was, A ) An unofficial gathering.


Immaterial.



mariomike said:


> B ) They followed the provincial and muncipal rules.


Says the chief who may not have known about it until after the fact? 

I think the fact there were at least 30 positive cases suggests they were a little loose with the phm rules. 



mariomike said:


> Want to tell them where they can and can't go when off-duty and who they can associate with under the above circumstances?


Moving the goal posts here. They're health care workers who chose to have a very large gathering despite clear indicators a new more transmissible variant of covid was in town. They made poor decisions and patients were put at risk.



> These people didn't get to enjoy the comfort and safety of staying home during the pandemic.


Neither did garbage men/women, people who worked at shoppers drug mart, or probably a lot of other minimum wage workers. 



> They will probably be working Christmas and New Year's too.



Probably. 

While we're feeling bad they may be working Christmas, some of their patients may now be sick over the holidays and unable to see family. 

Like the mayor says, disappointing.

[also possible I'm just being dramatic and over reacting]


----------



## Remius

What I find weird is that they say this won’t affect operations.  How do 30 paramedics (at least) taken off the road not affect operations?


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> Six more Ottawa paramedics test positive for COVID-19; service impact 'minimal'
> 
> 
> Ottawa's paramedic chief says another six members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19 following an outbreak linked to an off-duty social event, bringing the total to 36 cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawa.ctvnews.ca



If the paramedics are not symptomatic and are wearing the proper PPE, why are they being forced off the job? (I haven't read the article but I'm going to assume they are in self-whatever). At this point everyone who has wanted the vaccine has had one, that was the whole point of mass vaccination of the population. If these paramedics happen to respond to unvaccinated well that was their choice to roll the dice and not take the jab. The vaccine was supposed to remove this nonsense of self-isolation when tested positive, but yet again, the nut jobs have moved the criteria. I would have no problem having a C19 positive paramedic, who displayed no symptoms, respond to a car accident I was involved in.



Brad Sallows said:


> Not sure how much the official rules matter to anyone.  Unless I'm living in an alternate universe of my own imagination, there's a huge gap in practices between younger and older with respect to gatherings.  Everyone I know who is older or potentially has weak immunity is buttoned down tight beyond what is officially required.  Most of those who are younger are willing to party outside the limits of what is officially required.  I assume behaviour shifts gradually over the spectrum of age from one to the other.



You are more than welcome to barricade yourself in your house at anytime to ride this COVID thing out. Majority of people, that I know anyway, are vaccinated and haven't heeded to PHMs since two weeks after their second dose, this goes for all age groups from 20s to 50s. It's just utter nonsense at this point.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> How do 30 paramedics (at least) taken off the road not affect operations?



I was wondering the same thing.



> “As this is an evolving situation, the City continues to monitor the impacts to the service delivery of the Ottawa Paramedic Service and will implement further contingency plans as required,” Poirier said in a statement sent through the city’s communications branch.



Maybe the "contingency plan" is this,



> Marc-André Périard, director of emergency services in Prescott and Russell, said he spoke with the Ottawa Paramedic Service on Wednesday to understand if there would be any impacts to his paramedic services in the united counties if there was a decreased paramedic workforce in Ottawa.



Also sounds like a lot of OT,



> The last available budget update published in November indicated the paramedic service was on track to overspend its $2.2-million overtime budget by $2 million in 2021, though the service reported spending $4.5 million on overtime in 2020.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> You are more than welcome to barricade yourself in your house at anytime



Taken literally, isn't it illegal in Canada to physically barricade your home i.e fortify it?


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> Taken literally, isn't it illegal in Canada to physically barricade your home i.e fortify it?


No. Traps are a crime though.


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> No. Traps are a crime though.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> No. Traps are a crime though.



Like teenagers' bedroom floors?

Asking for a friend


----------



## winds_13

Quirky said:


> Majority of people, that I know anyway, are vaccinated and haven't heeded to PHMs since two weeks after their second dose, this goes for all age groups from 20s to 50s. It's just utter nonsense at this point.


Do you not think that it is this mentality that led to increased case loads even prior to the arrival of the omicron variant? PHAC warned of waning immunity, increased spread amongst vaccinated individuals, and the prevalence of airborne transmission.

You said that "the nutjobs moved the criteria"... what nut jobs? The scientists and medical experts, after having collected more real world data about long-term vaccine effectiveness?

I am also vaccinated, but I never saw it as a reason to stop following recommended PHMs or consider it a free pass to live as if the pandemic is over.  You suggest that "the unvaccinated" do not care about others, yet here you are also just not giving a f*ck.


----------



## Kat Stevens

brihard said:


> No. Traps are a crime though.


Say what, now??


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Kat Stevens said:


> Say what, now??


* scurry's around the back of the house*


----------



## mariomike

Remius said it best,



Remius said:


> I think it’s more of a cautionary tale.  No blame.  Just that we are far from done with COVID.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> Remius said it best,
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, six more tested positive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Six more Ottawa paramedics test positive for COVID-19; service impact 'minimal'
> 
> 
> Ottawa's paramedic chief says another six members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19 following an outbreak linked to an off-duty social event, bringing the total to 36 cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ottawa.ctvnews.ca


Yeah, more and more the info coming out about this event is looking more and more like a boneheaded decision. 

36 confirmed cases and now 130 High risk contacts.   The Ottawa Sun is reporting 130 staff were at the gathering in the byward market.  I’m pretty sure there is no restaurant that can accommodate 130 people on the market and maintain any real level of distancing. 

The number estimated in attendance would account for a quarter of the paramedic force,  

This looks like a “if the organisation won’t organise a gathering then we will” sort of thing. 

Cautionary tale indeed.


----------



## OldSolduer

An entire shift attended a Xmas party where one of the wait staff was infected. Good for OT but staff burnout is a concern as well.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

(Reuters) - Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated - CDC​
(Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday. 









						Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated - CDC
					

Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.  The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)...




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> You would think medial professionals would know better.





Jarnhamar said:


> Blame the province and city for paramedics not having common sense?





Jarnhamar said:


> Or we could hold people accountable for their decisions and not look to place blame elsewhere.



What would you like the punishment to be for the paramedics?


No scolding for the medical doctors who run the health department, the politicians who run the government, and the bar owners who all decided to keep them open at full capacity.

Instead, blame the customers who obeyed their rules.

Or, maybe just specific customers.

No scolding of the other people who went to wide-open bars all over Ontario that night.

But, paramedics are expected to stay home after work.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

All fully vaccinated paramedics. I wonder how many had the booster?


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> What do you think the punishment should be for the paramedics?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No scolding for the medical doctors who run the health department, the politicians who run the government, and the bar owners who all decided to keep them open at full capacity.
> 
> Instead, blame the customers who obeyed the rules.
> 
> Or, just specific customers.
> 
> No scolding of the other people who went to bars that night.
> 
> But, paramedics are expected to stay home after work.


I don’t think anyone is saying any of that.

This was a bit more than just a bunch of guys going for beers after work.  It’s literally a quarter of the force.  

That being said, there were no restrictions in place, and I’m sure all current rules were followed.  But I know that plenty of organisations were cancelling events and get togethers around that time.  But I am also sure many still went ahead despite the risk. 

I just think if your organization says “no official gatherings” and you go ahead and plan an unofficial one it sort of defeats the purpose and it won’t matter.  It will still look bad on the organisation if things go sideways.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> (Reuters) - Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated - CDC​
> (Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated - CDC
> 
> 
> Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.  The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com


Yes; Omicron has shown signs of significant immune escape, and that has kept up since that article was published two weeks ago. Also, the vaccines seem to wane in effectiveness between 3 to 6 months. Now, this is in terms of catching it at all. It appears that even just having the first two shots still provides robust defense against serious illness and hospitalization. The risk of ICU for the unvaccinated still remains an order of magnitude higher.

This isn’t and has never been about how many cases get mild symptoms. It remains about the threat to hospitals and, specifically, ICUs. Canada is in rampant exponential growth right now and testing is now completely overwhelmed in at least ON and Quebec. There will be two meaningful numbers going forward: the daily test positivity rate, as a very coarse metric that allows some extrapolation, and, the counts of patients admitted to and staying in hospital and ICU. Those remain lagging indicators, though Quebec started to trend up in the last couple days.

We are into a ‘wait and see’ phase that, within a week or two, should give us a very clear idea of how bad this is or isn’t.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> All fully vaccinated paramedics. I wonder how many had the booster?


Not sure.  The issue with Omicron is what hospitalisations and ICU cases will look like.  If they stay low then good.  

My brother had a breakthrough case that ripped through the family hard.  He stated if he hadn’t been double vacced he’s likely be dead.  He’s overweight, heart issues among other things.  

The concern I have is how paramedic service is being affected with 36 cases and climbing and possibly more that have to self isolate.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> What would you like the punishment to be for the paramedics?


They have to get tattoos of fire trucks.



mariomike said:


> But, paramedics are expected to stay home after work.


Yes MarioMike, that's exactly what was said.


----------



## dapaterson

The difference between paramedics and fire fighters is that paramedics aren't officially paid to sleep on the job.


----------



## suffolkowner

brihard said:


> Yes; Omicron has shown signs of significant immune escape, and that has kept up since that article was published two weeks ago. Also, the vaccines seem to wane in effectiveness between 3 to 6 months. Now, this is in terms of catching it at all. It appears that even just having the first two shots still provides robust defense against serious illness and hospitalization. The risk of ICU for the unvaccinated still remains an order of magnitude higher.
> 
> This isn’t and has never been about how many cases get mild symptoms. It remains about the threat to hospitals and, specifically, ICUs. Canada is in rampant exponential growth right now and testing is now completely overwhelmed in at least ON and Quebec. There will be two meaningful numbers going forward: the daily test positivity rate, as a very coarse metric that allows some extrapolation, and, the counts of patients admitted to and staying in hospital and ICU. Those remain lagging indicators, though Quebec started to trend up in the last couple days.
> 
> We are into a ‘wait and see’ phase that, within a week or two, should give us a very clear idea of how bad this is or isn’t.


Is it actually wanning immunity or just declining antibody persistence?


----------



## brihard

suffolkowner said:


> Is it actually wanning immunity or just declining antibody persistence?


I don’t know, I’m not qualified to say. It’s clear that one way or another, vaccine efficacy has diminished over time, and Omicron’s mutations may make it more potent at evading what immune response remains.


----------



## suffolkowner

brihard said:


> I don’t know, I’m not qualified to say. It’s clear that one way or another, vaccine efficacy has diminished over time, and Omicron’s mutations may make it more potent at evading what immune response remains.


I'll take a look over Christmas to see if I can figure it out as I plan on avoiding doing anything productive for a while as you can tell by my posting today.

The thing that strikes me a little off by the narrative is the virulence seems to be surprisingly low and especially in vaccinated people, so I'm having a hard time squaring that with a lack of efficacy of the vaccine in what is really a short time period for a vaccine notwithstanding any mutations in the spike protein that will interfere with antibody binding


----------



## suffolkowner

Here's two recent studies on the topic









						Waning Immunity after the BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel | NEJM
					

Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — Waning Immunity after the BNT162b2 Vaccine in Israel



					www.nejm.org
				






			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114583
		


In this prospective longitudinal study, we found a significant waning of humoral responses within 6 months after receipt of the second dose of BNT162b2 vaccine in a large cohort of 4868 participants. We observed a continuous decrease in anti-S IgG titers at a relative stable rate within 6 months. *The decrease in neutralizing antibody titers was brisk initially, in the period of up to 70 to 80 days, but slowed thereafter*. Antibody titers were associated with age, sex, and coexisting conditions. Particularly vulnerable populations with lower neutralizing titers were older men and participants with immunosuppression.
*Published work about many vaccines, such as those against measles, mumps, and rubella, has shown a small decrease each year of 5 to 10% in the neutralizing antibody levels*.13,14 We found that a significant and rapid decrease in humoral response to the BNT162b2 vaccine was observed within months after vaccination.
Neutralizing antibodies have been shown to correlate with protection.6,15 Yet, neutralizing assays are complex and time-consuming. Thus, the correlation between anti-S IgG and neutralizing antibody levels reported here are useful. Although we found a consistently strong correlation, the regression relationship between IgG and neutralizing antibody was dependent on time. Thus, relating IgG levels to neutralizing ability depends on time since the second dose.
Using a mixed model, we analyzed the association of age, sex, and coexisting conditions with immunogenicity, both at the peak and at 6 months after receipt of the second dose. We found that antibody levels in both periods were higher in women than in men and decreased with age, as has been previously shown for the first month after receipt of the second dose.7,16 Similar to the findings in other reports,17-19 a significantly lower antibody response was found consistently through the observation period among participants with immunosuppression, who had neutralizing antibody titers that were lower by a factor of 5 than those among participants without immunosuppression.
Obese persons (BMI, ≥30) had a significantly higher neutralizing antibody titer during long-term follow-up than nonobese participants. Obesity is associated with severe Covid-19,20 and disease severity is associated with a higher Covid-19 humoral immune response. A recent study showed that SARS-CoV-2 neutralizing antibodies are positively associated with BMI.21 Yet, it is still unclear whether vaccinated obese persons are at higher or lower risk for breakthrough infection and whether the relatively high humoral response to the vaccine is protective.
Several studies on the durability of humoral response in persons who have recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection showed that both IgG and neutralizing antibody levels decrease only modestly at 8 to 10 months after the infection.22,23 This striking difference in antibody kinetics between convalescent persons and vaccinated persons may be the reason for the substantially lower incidence of breakthrough infection among previously infected persons than among vaccinated persons.24,25 *Overall, the accumulating evidence from our study and others22-25 shows that long-term humoral response and vaccine effectiveness in previously infected persons were superior to that in recipients of two doses of vaccine.*
Our study was conducted in a cohort of health care workers, who were mostly healthy persons and therefore may not represent the general population. To overcome this limitation, although IgG tests were performed in the entire study population, neutralizing antibody tests were performed in a subgroup that included higher proportions of older persons or of persons with coexisting conditions in order to better represent the general population.
Our data provide important insights into the longitudinal dynamics of the immune response to BNT162b2 vaccination. As this pandemic continues to evolve, the importance of determining immune correlates of protection after vaccination becomes clearer. Strategies to prolong host immunity need to be evaluated in order to protect the population against SARS-CoV-2 and its variants.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> I don’t think anyone is saying any of that.



Nice to hear.  I just wondered what was meant by "hold people accountable".



Remius said:


> The concern I have is how paramedic service is being affected with 36 cases and climbing and possibly more that have to self isolate.



Only way I remember to keep members out of the bars was to put them on Standby. Standby meant no drinking.

You received three (3) hours pay at regular straight time hourly rate for each twenty-four (24) hour period within which you were assigned to stand by.

Not sure if Ottawa has a similar policy.


----------



## OceanBonfire

A German research team has revealed the damage COVID-19 does to the heart by using 3D X-ray images:









						X-ray imaging shows COVID-19 damage to heart in new detail
					

A German research team has revealed the damage COVID-19 does to the heart by using three dimensional X-ray images for the first time.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Eye In The Sky

mariomike said:


> What would you like the punishment to be for the paramedics?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No scolding for the medical doctors who run the health department, the politicians who run the government, and the bar owners who all decided to keep them open at full capacity.
> 
> Instead, blame the customers who obeyed their rules.
> 
> Or, maybe just specific customers.
> 
> No scolding of the other people who went to wide-open bars all over Ontario that night.
> 
> But, paramedics are expected to stay home after work.



Not stay at home, but does the “knew or reasonably ought to have known” concept not apply in this situation?


----------



## mariomike

Eye In The Sky said:


> Not stay at home, but does the “knew or reasonably ought to have known” concept not apply in this situation?



Lots of people went to bars in Ontario on 15 Dec.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> That's my choice. Their choice was to go to a bar.


Did you actually read the story?


----------



## mariomike

They went to a bar.

As many others did across Ontario on 15 Dec.

Have you read of anyone getting ticketed or fined?

But, continue scolding away.


----------



## PuckChaser

Don't want to get vaccinated? Lose your job.

Go to a work party that contravines public health guidelines and force the quarantine of a large amount of critical service employees? Lose your job.

Seems fair to me, can't be hard on one and not the other.


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:


> Go to a work party that contravines public health guidelines and force the quarantine of a large amount of critical service employees? Lose your job.



What public health guidelines were contravined.?

Lots of people in Ottawa, and across Ontario, went to bars on 15 Dec.

Have you read of any who were ticketed or fined?

Guys typing "hold people accountable" and "Lose your job" for going to a bar, I think will be disappointed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

For those who believe ICUs are overflowing with covid cases, here are the current data from the province of Ontario site as of today, December 23 2021.
Check out the graph in the section mid way down 'Availability of adult ICU beds'.
I might be wrong in my readings of this, but the hype of overflowing or crisis levels in the ICUs due to Covid, might be a tad Fake News. Covid appears to be responsible for only 7% of ICU stays.

"Patients in ICU due to COVID-19 includes both those currently testing positive for COVID-19 and those who are no longer testing positive. The numbers show the count for adult ICU beds only and do not include cases in pediatric or neonatal ICUs. As a result, it may not match the cases for people who are in the ICU due to COVID-19 reported elsewhere on Ontario.ca."






						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## kev994

Fishbone Jones said:


> For those who believe ICUs are overflowing with covid cases, here are the current data from the province of Ontario site as of today, December 23 2021.
> Check out the graph in the section mid way down 'Availability of adult ICU beds'.
> I might be wrong in my readings of this, but the hype of overflowing or crisis levels in the ICUs due to Covid, might be a tad Fake News. Covid appears to be responsible for only 7% of ICU stays.
> 
> "Patients in ICU due to COVID-19 includes both those currently testing positive for COVID-19 and those who are no longer testing positive. The numbers show the count for adult ICU beds only and do not include cases in pediatric or neonatal ICUs. As a result, it may not match the cases for people who are in the ICU due to COVID-19 reported elsewhere on Ontario.ca."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


But hospitalizations lag quite a bit so I wouldn’t celebrate yet; people don’t end up in the hospital on day 2, they deteriorate in their house for a couple weeks first and we’re not there yet. Early reports from the UK are showing that hospitalizations are 50-70% less likely , but if we’re half as likely to end up in hospital but 10x as many people are infected, that’s 5x as many people in the hospital. Also worth noting that their early reports appear to be from a young demographic so not necessarily representative of the greater population.


----------



## Remius

kev994 said:


> But hospitalizations lag quite a bit so I wouldn’t celebrate yet; people don’t end up in the hospital on day 2, they deteriorate in their house for a couple weeks first and we’re not there yet. Early reports from the UK are showing that hospitalizations are 50-70% less likely , but if we’re half as likely to end up in hospital but 10x as many people are infected, that’s 5x as many people in the hospital. Also worth noting that their early reports appear to be from a young demographic so not necessarily representative of the greater population.


This. 

It’s isn’t about ICUs being full now.  It’s the potential,  to be honest early signs and what is happening in the UK seem to indicate that it won’t be that bad. Hopefully that will be the case. 

But I’d rather they be ready for the worst case scenario.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Again: some ICUs habitually operate near capacity, so only a small increase is needed to hit 100% or more.  Need to know what the habitual usage is before concluding anything.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Once again, Neil Oliver hits the nail on the head.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469794073498243073


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> For those who believe ICUs are overflowing with covid cases, here are the current data from the province of Ontario site as of today, December 23 2021.
> Check out the graph in the section mid way down 'Availability of adult ICU beds'.
> I might be wrong in my readings of this, but the hype of overflowing or crisis levels in the ICUs due to Covid, might be a tad Fake News. Covid appears to be responsible for only 7% of ICU stays.
> 
> "Patients in ICU due to COVID-19 includes both those currently testing positive for COVID-19 and those who are no longer testing positive. The numbers show the count for adult ICU beds only and do not include cases in pediatric or neonatal ICUs. As a result, it may not match the cases for people who are in the ICU due to COVID-19 reported elsewhere on Ontario.ca."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca



Literally nobody here has said that that is actually happening at this point in time, so you're making stuff up again. What has been said by myself and a few others is that that is the primary _risk_ to the healthcare system, as was seen in a prior wave when ICU patients from London were being airlifted to Sudbury. COVID critical care in Ontario peaked in late April at 940 cases. Mechanical ventilation was running 180% of pre-pandemic average, and Ontario's ICUs had to be greatly expanded, in part through thinning out staffing ratios, and bringing in non-critical-care-trained nurses to work ICUs. Far from ideal. The system was on the brink of triage but fortunately didn't hit it. Alberta saw something similar. Manitoba and Saskatchewan were saved by their small size and ability to offload patients on neighbouring jurisdictions.

At Ontario's current Covid related ICU hospitalizations, we are well short of that. We are also in an accelerating phase of exponential growth, and have blown through the province's prior record. The testing system is now overwhelmed and it's certain that many positive cases cannot access a test. At the same time, it's not yet known how much severe illness will result form this variant. ICU numbers are beginning to creep up, and it must be remembered that when someone gets sick, it takes a while to get sick enough to go to hospital,a nd when they got to hospital, it's generally some time before they require intensive care. That's what 'lagging indicator' means. Today we had four times the cases test positive that we did two weeks ago- and again that's with badly overwhelmed testing. Hospitalization and critical care, to whatever extent this wave will put a demand on them, have not yet caught up to case growth,a nd won't for some time.

If we're lucky, Omicron is _so_ much less virulent that a _much_ lesser number of people need critical care. Prior infections and vaccinations will likely have a major impact on that. However with something like a sixth of the province's population not fully vaccinated, that's still a lot of people with potentially minimal protection. A much larger number of less virulent cases can still multiply to more demand on hospitals.

Point is, we don't know yet, but we saw what happened in April, it was very bad, and it was almost disastrous. The precautionary principle, informed by the data available, dictates sufficient caution as to allow us to try to avoid a repeat of last spring. Because it's happening in every province at once now, there's nowhere to dump patients to if ICUs get full, and this wave has grown at a rate we've never come close to seeing before.  Public policy isn't just about what's happening _today_, but also about what can be reasonably anticipated in the foreseeable future. None of us _want_ to see the worst case happen here. It would simply be imprudent, an an abrogation of responsibility for the provincial government to not prepare for it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Guys typing "hold people accountable" and "Lose your job" for going to a bar, I think will be disappointed.


_
Hold people accountable_ was in response to you suggesting the city and province should take some of the blame for the paramedics choosing to attend a work function with 130 people in close proximity, where at least 36 of them became infected, on the proverbial eve of new restrictions being placed. 

As you know they didn't break any laws or apparently gathering restrictions (made it by 2 days). It was still a very poor decision to go ahead with the work function and given their line of work it put lots of other people at risk.

I'm not sure why you don't understand the difference in context between 130 healthcare workers whose job involves interacting with the public meeting and hanging out for drinks and food in a very likely confined area, and 2 guys having a drink at the bar. 

To recap for you it wasn't illegal. It was inconsiderate and lacked common sense. It's on a different level than you going to the bar with your buddy.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Mick said:


> Does Mr. Redman elaborate on how to achieve any of these goals?  That would certainly be helpful.



He certainly does. Her is a 139 page summary of his views, both describing what has been wrong with Canada's COVID-19 response and what he would have done differently: https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/FC-PS237_CDADeadlyResponse_JL1621_F2.pdf


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> _Hold people accountable_ was in response to you suggesting the city and province should take some of the blame for the paramedics choosing to attend a work function with 130 people in close proximity, where at least 36 of them became infected, on the proverbial eve of new restrictions being placed.
> 
> As you know they didn't break any laws or apparently gathering restrictions (made it by 2 days). It was still a very poor decision to go ahead with the work function and given their line of work it put lots of other people at risk.
> 
> I'm not sure why you don't understand the difference in context between 130 healthcare workers whose job involves interacting with the public meeting and hanging out for drinks and food in a very likely confined area, and 2 guys having a drink at the bar.
> 
> To recap for you it wasn't illegal. It was inconsiderate and lacked common sense. It's on a different level than you going to the bar with your buddy.



Enjoy the self-righteous indignation.

"hold people accountable"  "lose their jobs".

Anyone hoping for that will be sadly disappointed.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, where Omicron got started:

S.Africa scraps isolation for those without COVID symptoms​

JOHANNESBURG, Dec 24 (Reuters) - South Africans without symptoms of COVID-19 will no longer need to isolate or test if they have been in contact with a positive case, the government announced on Friday, saying developments around the virus justified a shift from containment measures towards mitigation.

The country has led the continent in terms of COVID-19 cases and deaths, as well as vaccinations, and its experience has been closely watched around the world after it was among the first countries to identify the more transmissible Omicron variant.

The health ministry said that asymptomatic individuals who had been in contact with a case of COVID-19 no longer had to isolate but should monitor for symptoms for 5-7 days and avoid attending large gatherings.

Only those people who developed symptoms needed to get tested, the statement continued, adding that those with mild symptoms should isolate for eight days and severe cases for 10 days.









						S.Africa scraps isolation for those without COVID symptoms
					

South Africans without symptoms of COVID-19 will no longer need to isolate or test if they have been in contact with a positive case, the government announced on Friday, saying developments around the virus justified a shift from containment measures towards mitigation.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Rd651

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, where Omicron got started:
> 
> S.Africa scraps isolation for those without COVID symptoms​
> 
> JOHANNESBURG, Dec 24 (Reuters) - South Africans without symptoms of COVID-19 will no longer need to isolate or test if they have been in contact with a positive case, the government announced on Friday, saying developments around the virus justified a shift from containment measures towards mitigation.
> 
> The country has led the continent in terms of COVID-19 cases and deaths, as well as vaccinations, and its experience has been closely watched around the world after it was among the first countries to identify the more transmissible Omicron variant.
> 
> The health ministry said that asymptomatic individuals who had been in contact with a case of COVID-19 no longer had to isolate but should monitor for symptoms for 5-7 days and avoid attending large gatherings.
> 
> Only those people who developed symptoms needed to get tested, the statement continued, adding that those with mild symptoms should isolate for eight days and severe cases for 10 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.Africa scraps isolation for those without COVID symptoms
> 
> 
> South Africans without symptoms of COVID-19 will no longer need to isolate or test if they have been in contact with a positive case, the government announced on Friday, saying developments around the virus justified a shift from containment measures towards mitigation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Yep, guess it's time to let it rip, cases exploding across Canada, most provinces are now saying that if you take a rapid test and it's +, you have COVID and you will not get a PCR test, unless you meet certain conditions, because we are now overwhelmed with cases from the new variant, testing centers are swamped, NS admits it doesnt have an accurate number of total cases. But averaging 500-600 a day for over a week now.....if your vaccinated good (I'm fully vaccinated), if you are not good luck! We are ALL going to get this..at some point... and good luck to hospital staff if this strain isnt as mild as projected...Time to move on as a society!! Happy Holidays....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, on Fantasy Island, things are looking up (and not in a good way):


----------



## brihard

Yeah, Ontario and Quebec have managed to flatten the curve against the Y axis. Not ideal.


----------



## Rd651

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, on Fantasy Island, things are looking up (and not in a good way):
> 
> 
> View attachment 67787


Yep, stats are bad, looks like average society has decided to get on with life!! My 2 cents


daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, on Fantasy Island, things are looking up (and not in a good way):
> 
> 
> View attachment 67787


Yep, guess What?? Society has decided that it's time to move on with life.....


----------



## brihard

Rd651 said:


> Yep, stats are bad, looks like average society has decided to get on with life!! My 2 cents
> 
> Yep, guess What?? Society has decided that it's time to move on with life.....


Yes, we get it. You believe society has decided to ‘move on’ from the pandemic. You’ve said as much three times in two posts. I’m not sure your perception is aligned with the fact set, but you do you.


----------



## Rd651

brihard said:


> Yes, we get it. You believe society has decided to ‘move on’ from the pandemic. You’ve said as much three times in two posts. I’m not sure your perception is aligned with the fact set, but you do you.


Lol, yep time to move on, society has indeed decided to move on......let er rip by'e....time for you and and few others to get off of fantasy island!!!


----------



## Remius

Rd651 said:


> Lol, yep time to move on, society has indeed decided to move on......let er rip by'e....time for you and and few others to get off of fantasy island!!!


For someone obsessed with moving on,  you sure do like to come back…


----------



## Mick

LittleBlackDevil said:


> He certainly does. Her is a 139 page summary of his views, both describing what has been wrong with Canada's COVID-19 response and what he would have done differently: https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/FC-PS237_CDADeadlyResponse_JL1621_F2.pdf


Thank you!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

"What he would have done differently "

Funny how those who think they are the smartest are always full of "what they would have done" and not at the forefront of a crisis saying "this is what we need to do".


----------



## suffolkowner

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> "What he would have done differently "
> 
> Funny how those who think they are the smartest are always full of "what they would have done" and not at the forefront of a crisis saying "this is what we need to do".


I don't think this is entirely accurate there has been lots of criticism of the various governments decisions at the time from various commentators. But much of it has been shouted down or ignored. From the questioning of pretty much every position ever taken by Dr Tam. The Sun has run lots of opinion pieces dissecting various health policies. In Ontario the former Minister of Long Term Care was removed for being right pretty much 100% of the time and replaced by the former Minister of Finance who had decided that his winter vacation had precedent over the very recommendations he espoused out of the other side of his mouth. Also in Ontario you can watch or listen to Dr Bogash disagree with the health commitee pretty much everyday. There's been lots of correct foresight out there to choose from it has all been hindsight


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Lots of criticism and lots of 'attaboys'.....depends on what you wish to see.    

My favoroite 'attaboy' in this whole thing is how the Ontario Govt will admit a mistake, and will walk it back,or just eat it.    The Alberta Govt has handled this perfectly,  just ask them.......


----------



## suffolkowner

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Lots of criticism and lots of 'attaboys'.....depends on what you wish to see.
> 
> My favoroite 'attaboy' in those whole thing is how the Ontario Govt will admit a mistake, and will walk it back,or just eat it.    The Alberta Govt has handled this perfectly,  just ask them.......


For sure things could be a lot worse. Thank god the virus isn't a lot worse than it is or has been. Its kinda pathetic that Ontario hospitals can't handle 2000 sick people but it doesnt really look like any jurisdiction in the world has been that good at it. We just aren't used to infectious diseases in the Western world anymore. Western societies expectations over the last 75 years due to the success of modern antibiotics, sanitation and vaccines have left them unprepared for a breakthrough pandemic like we are experiencing.

I still laugh/cry everytime I think about putting on a mask for the 1 min walk into or out of a restaurant after having spent over an hour inside without one


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Ford is doing just fine considering he's taking care of almost half the population of Canada. Compared to some provinces, with only a couple of million, that just can't  seem to get a grip on things. If you're  upset with Ford, imagine if Horvath or del Duca were in charge.


----------



## OldSolduer

Manitoba is about to go into lockdown come
Monday


----------



## suffolkowner

Fishbone Jones said:


> Ford is doing just fine considering he's taking care of almost half the population of Canada. Compared to some provinces, with only a couple of million, that just can't  seem to get a grip on things. If you're  upset with Ford, imagine if Horvath or del Duca were in charge.


Unfortunately I agree. I have no faith in those other two either. Horvath would have us all locked up in our basements until the end of time


----------



## PuckChaser

CDC cuts quarantine for close contacts and positive cases in half because locking down large portions of society is more of a threat to hospital capacity than COVID.

US officials recommend shorter COVID isolation, quarantine | AP News


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> Yeah, Ontario and Quebec have managed to flatten the curve against the Y axis. Not ideal.


Actually it looks like Quebec and N.S. Are winning the ‘Flat Y-axis’ race…


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> "What he would have done differently "
> 
> Funny how those who think they are the smartest are always full of "what they would have done" and not at the forefront of a crisis saying "this is what we need to do".



Actually, Col (Ret'd) Redman has been saying "this is what we need to do" since the beginning. He wrote to every single premier in the country to this end, but no one wanted to listen.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Actually, Col (Ret'd) Redman has been saying "this is what we need to do" since the beginning. He wrote to every single premier in the country to this end, but no one wanted to listen.


Oh I've read his stuff,   and I still think he was wrong. 


And a moron.....love this line.  "I never had a hard time finding  volunteers for really bad tasks in the armed forces".

To think TLC folks would be the same as military folks shows an incredible amount of , I hesitate to use the word stupid, but  just total disconnect from the real world.


----------



## Quirky

winds_13 said:


> I am also vaccinated, but I never saw it as a reason to stop following recommended PHMs or consider it a free pass to live as if the pandemic is over.  You suggest that "the unvaccinated" do not care about others, yet here you are also just not giving a f*ck.



Two years later I don't. Everyone has had plenty of time to make their choice. I'm done with all this nonsense and won't stop from seeing friends and family because of garbage PHMs and restrictions - which is all that politicians and "experts" can come up with after all this time.


----------



## Altair

Good2Golf said:


> Actually it looks like Quebec and N.S. Are winning the ‘Flat Y-axis’ race…


Well, at least the border closure worked, right?


Right?


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> Well, at least the border closure worked, right?
> 
> 
> Right?



Can we keep quebec and the maritimes in a permanent bubble?


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:


> Two years later I don't. Everyone has had plenty of time to make their choice. I'm done with all this nonsense and won't stop from seeing friends and family because of garbage PHMs and restrictions - which is all that politicians and "experts" can come up with after all this time.


What would you rather coming up with to stop the spread of a rapidly mutating virus that is now air borne and has killed over 5 million people (which by the way is about 3x more thwn the flu does on an annual basis). We are dealing with a constantly changing environment, part of the problem is people aren't listening. If you are sick stay home, surveys have found 38% of people still go to work, or to the store, etc while sick. 

Ignore the measures all you want, but if you and your family get sick, congratulations, you just became part of the problem as to why this virus keeps spreading and mutating, the more people get infected, the higher chances of it mutating. It's already picked up traits of the common cold, what will we do if it picks up a trait of a virus we can't stop like HIV? That just sounds like game over, yes it's a big if right now but it's possible with each new case.


----------



## Altair

MilEME09 said:


> What would you rather coming up with to stop the spread of a rapidly mutating virus that is now air borne and has killed over 5 million people (which by the way is about 3x more thwn the flu does on an annual basis). We are dealing with a constantly changing environment, part of the problem is people aren't listening. If you are sick stay home, surveys have found 38% of people still go to work, or to the store, etc while sick.
> 
> Ignore the measures all you want, but if you and your family get sick, congratulations, you just became part of the problem as to why this virus keeps spreading and mutating, the more people get infected, the higher chances of it mutating. It's already picked up traits of the common cold, what will we do if it picks up a trait of a virus we can't stop like HIV? That just sounds like game over, yes it's a big if right now but it's possible with each new case.


It's going to keep mutating because outside of Europe and North American and select places in the middle east, very few people are vaccinated.

It's going to mutate in these places and hop a plane ride to the first world and be halfway around the world before we know it exists, and this is going to happen regardless of what Quirky does.


----------



## Quirky

MilEME09 said:


> If you are sick stay home, surveys have found 38% of people still go to work, or to the store, etc while sick.


People have to provide for their families or themselves to survive. Not everyone has the luxury to stay home and lounge in their PJs like the military while getting paid. If it means the difference between paying bills and buying food, I'd go to work too. 



> Ignore the measures all you want, but if you and your family get sick, congratulations, you just became part of the problem as to why this virus keeps spreading and mutating, the more people get infected, the higher chances of it mutating. .



Big deal, people get sick for a variety of different reasons, especially if you are a smoker or fat.  Everyone is going to catch covid at some point, whether you know it or not. I work on prevention through a healthy lifestyle, not through nonsensical PHMs and useless cloth masking. Life is too short to barricade yourself in your house forever. I've got my shots, I eat healthy and workout regularly, this is the best prevention tool people have, yet obesity is still the real epidemic in society. People still afraid of this thing and calling for more restrictions and PHMs are cowards. Vast majority of people ending up in hospital are unvaccinated and otherwise unhealthy to begin with. Enough is enough already with the fear of covid, canadas response is nothing short of a disgrace at this point, tear the Band-Aid off already. Cancelling the world hockey tournament because fully vaccinated teenagers have covid but are asymptomatic is absolutely mindboggling. We keep listening to the same idiot "experts" who parrot nothing but a merry go-round of circuit breakers and restriction limits. They have no idea what to do at this point but repeat the same crap. 

The only piece of data that matters right now is the number of vaccinated people that need ICU.



> It's already picked up traits of the common cold, what will we do if it picks up a trait of a virus we can't stop like HIV? That just sounds like game over, yes it's a big if right now but it's possible with each new case



Humanity will live on. Not everyone will get on the bus, that's how *natural selection* works. Our society is doomed anyway. Everyone double or triple vaxxed, everyone asymptomatic, everyone is being tested daily, and oh yea by the way we’re cancelling everything. Hypersensitivity and woke ideologies are a disease.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> Can we keep quebec and the maritimes in a permanent bubble?


Sure.

It won't work any better than the border closures with Africa.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> People have to provide for their families or themselves to survive. Not everyone has the luxury to stay home and lounge in their PJs like the military while getting paid. If it means the difference between paying bills and buying food, I'd go to work too.
> 
> 
> 
> Big deal, people get sick for a variety of different reasons, especially if you are a smoker or fat.  Everyone is going to catch covid at some point, whether you know it or not. I work on prevention through a healthy lifestyle, not through nonsensical PHMs and useless cloth masking. Life is too short to barricade yourself in your house forever. I've got my shots, I eat healthy and workout regularly, this is the best prevention tool people have, yet obesity is still the real epidemic in society. People still afraid of this thing and calling for more restrictions and PHMs are cowards. Vast majority of people ending up in hospital are unvaccinated and otherwise unhealthy to begin with. Enough is enough already with the fear of covid, canadas response is nothing short of a disgrace at this point, tear the Band-Aid off already. Cancelling the world hockey tournament because fully vaccinated teenagers have covid but are asymptomatic is absolutely mindboggling. We keep listening to the same idiot "experts" who parrot nothing but a merry go-round of circuit breakers and restriction limits. They have no idea what to do at this point but repeat the same crap.


Yeah, the NFL and NBA have moved on to asymptomatic players can play as normal. That's the way society is going, the rest be damned.

NHL is as well, with the league following the 5 day isolation for teams where that is permitted,  aka the USA. Canadian teams will be doing the 10 days I'm sure.



Quirky said:


> The only piece of data that matters right now is the number of vaccinated people that need ICU.


yup, but people would rather the entire system burn to the ground in the name of not hurting feelings.


Quirky said:


> Humanity will live on. Not everyone will get on the bus, that's how *natural selection* works. Our society is doomed anyway. Everyone double or triple vaxxed, everyone asymptomatic, everyone is being tested daily, and oh yea by the way we’re cancelling everything. Hypersensitivity and woke ideologies are a disease.


Didn't know the mostly conservative premiers across this country were hypersensitive and woke.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Omicron is affecting kids big time and sending them to hospital:









						US children hospitalized with COVID in record numbers
					

SEATTLE (AP) — The omicron-fueled surge that is sending COVID-19 cases rocketing in the U.S. is putting children in the hospital in record numbers, and experts lament that most of the youngsters are not vaccinated.




					apnews.com


----------



## Altair

OceanBonfire said:


> Omicron is affecting UNVACCINATED kids big time and sending them to hospital:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US children hospitalized with COVID in record numbers
> 
> 
> SEATTLE (AP) — The omicron-fueled surge that is sending COVID-19 cases rocketing in the U.S. is putting children in the hospital in record numbers, and experts lament that most of the youngsters are not vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


FYP


----------



## cf100mk5

Quirky said:


> Our society is doomed anyway.


----------



## PuckChaser

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/28/health/omicron-kids-hospitalizations.html
https://fortune.com/2021/12/28/omic...diatricians-answers-covid-treatment-vaccines/


> *How many kids are getting sick?*​It depends where you are. Dr. Jennifer Lighter, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at New York University Langone Hospital in New York City, said she’s currently treating more children with the flu than with COVID-19.
> 
> “There are 50 pediatric hospitalizations in New York State—not New York City,_ state,_” Lighter told _Fortune._ “Because it’s so contagious, Omicron cases are sky-high right now, in both children and adults, but children progressing to severe disease is rare.”
> 
> Dr. Katharine Smart, president of the Canadian Medical Association and a pediatrician in the remote Yukon territory of Canada, said she has yet to see a single kid sick with the Omicron variant.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> "The overwhelming majority of children admitted are not admitted because of COVID-19," explains Pediatric Infectious Diseases Specialist Dr. Earl Rubin. "*They are admitted for other reasons and are then found to have COVID-19.*"
> 
> According to the Quebec health ministry, there are currently 23 children under the age of nine being treated for the virus in Quebec hospitals.











						Montreal sees high COVID-19 infections among young kids as admissions increase at Children's Hospital
					

An increasing number of children infected with COVID-19 have been admitted to the Montreal Children's Hospital in recent days.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Two years later I don't. Everyone has had plenty of time to make their choice. I'm done with all this nonsense and won't stop from seeing friends and family because of garbage PHMs and restrictions - which is all that politicians and "experts" can come up with after all this time.


Understandable.

Not everyone has the resiliency or patience to fight this.  

Good luck.


----------



## kev994

Ontario has apparently decided to move on with life. 2-day School Delay, shorter isolation


----------



## mariomike

Not sure how typical this is for workplaces.
The City of Toronto now issues Rapid Antigen Test kits to their firefighters and paramedics. ( Presumably police as well? )



> The RA tests are to be self-administered at home prior to coming into the workplace.


----------



## Remius

kev994 said:


> Ontario has apparently decided to move on with life. 2-day School Delay, shorter isolation


Partially yes.  It is going to have to be a new reality.  We’ll hopefully have clearer picture by next week or so.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Not sure how typical this is for workplaces.
> The City of Toronto now issues Rapid Antigen Test kits to their firefighters and paramedics. ( Presumably police as well? )


I just got back from stopping in at the office to grab three rapid tests that were provided to us. Intent is we use them if coming in to the office to work. So some supplies seem to be starting to shake loose…


----------



## Altair

kev994 said:


> Ontario has apparently decided to move on with life. 2-day School Delay, shorter isolation


Was always going to happen at some point.

As @Quirky Said, people are done with the nonsense.


----------



## MilEME09

Alberta posted an initial number today of 4,000 new cases, up from approximately 2600 yesterday. No further numbers will be released til January 4th. I don't understand why other provinces will provide daily updates but Alberta continues to react only 9-5 mon-fri excluding holidays


----------



## Altair

MilEME09 said:


> Alberta posted an initial number today of 4,000 new cases, up from approximately 2600 yesterday. No further numbers will be released til January 4th. I don't understand why other provinces will provide daily updates but Alberta continues to react only 9-5 mon-fri excluding holidays


I bet dollars to donuts Alberta is next on the DGAF train after Ontario.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I bet dollars to donuts Alberta is next on the DGAF train after Ontario.


They’ve already been on the DGAF train to destination f***ed


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> They’ve already been on the DGAF train.


Every new variant is a chance to decide on what to do.

Last time delta forced them to react with lock downs and vax passports.

This time I think they follow Ontario with shortened isolation and just let omicron do its thing.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Every new variant is a chance to decide on what to do.
> 
> Last time delta forced them to react with lock downs and vax passports.
> 
> This time I think they follow Ontario with shortened isolation and just let omicron do its thing.


I don’t think they follow anyone tbh.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I don’t think they follow anyone tbh.


More of a chronological order kind of thing.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Redacted because I'm wasting my breath.


----------



## MilEME09

Remius said:


> I don’t think they follow anyone tbh.


Well they sure don't fool then selves, after all Kenny advised people not to gather, then an hour later was at his Christmas party


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> Alberta posted an initial number today of 4,000 new cases, up from approximately 2600 yesterday. No further numbers will be released til January 4th. I don't understand why other provinces will provide daily updates but Alberta continues to react only 9-5 mon-fri excluding holidays


At this point the testing numbers are meaningless anyway. Testing is far too inaccessible. It’s now mostly just relevant for case diagnostic purposes for those either seriously ill, high risk, or who need to be medically cleared as high priority (eg hospital staff).

Either the ICUs fill up or they don’t. That will largely be a product of just what this variant does to the 10-15% still unvaccinated. The die is cast, all the rest of us can do now is see how it plays out and continue to minimize our individual risks.


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> Yeah, the NFL and NBA have moved on to asymptomatic players can play as normal. That's the way society is going, the rest be damned.



There has never been much value in getting tested and the same reason we didn’t do PCR tests to figure out if you had the cold or flu. People keep running for that PCR test when they have the sniffles, maybe it keeps their anxiety down in between anti-depressant doses? Getting rid of the vaccine passports the scared losers of the world have been insisting on is also an excellent option. I feel like at this point all restrictions need to end and people start taking some personal responsibility. Scared? Stay home. Need to go out and scared? Wear a N95 mask and get your vaccines. Don't go to mass sporting events, concerts and bars/restaurants, gyms etc where large gatherings happen. If you do, wear a N95 if you're scared or compromised of some sort. Stay home and don't travel if you're afraid of airports and airplanes where large groups of people gather. I'm done with this mass population punishment to protect the minority of weaklings with their high anxiety. 

More and more people and businesses are finally starting to defy all this bullshit.









						Gym owners explain why they remain open despite public health order mandating they close - Maple Ridge News
					

Provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry says gyms must close to curb COVID spread




					www.mapleridgenews.com
				







Remius said:


> Not everyone has the resiliency or patience to fight this.



Just two more weeks to flatten the curve right?  We need just one more circuit breaker to give the hospitals a chance.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> There has never been much value in getting tested and the same reason we didn’t do PCR tests to figure out if you had the cold or flu. People keep running for that PCR test when they have the sniffles, maybe it keeps their anxiety down in between anti-depressant doses? Getting rid of the vaccine passports the scared losers of the world have been insisting on is also an excellent option. I feel like at this point all restrictions need to end and people start taking some personal responsibility. Scared? Stay home. Need to go out and scared? Wear a N95 mask and get your vaccines. Don't go to mass sporting events, concerts and bars/restaurants, gyms etc where large gatherings happen. If you do, wear a N95 if you're scared or compromised of some sort. Stay home and don't travel if you're afraid of airports and airplanes where large groups of people gather. I'm done with this mass population punishment to protect the minority of weaklings with their high anxiety.
> 
> More and more people and businesses are finally starting to defy all this bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gym owners explain why they remain open despite public health order mandating they close - Maple Ridge News
> 
> 
> Provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry says gyms must close to curb COVID spread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mapleridgenews.com


We should be clear.

This is going to sucker punch our hospitals. We are paying the butchers bill for getting by on the bare minimum capacity for decades.

But so long as we treat the unvaccinated the same as the vaccinated this was always the way it was going to go.

the one positive from omicron is that if it does start to fill the ICUs to the point of denying care, those unvaccinated will be dying at home because the hospitals are full of other unvaccinated.

Finally the unvaccinated will see what the rest of society has had to deal with.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Just two more weeks to flatten the curve right?  We need just one more circuit breaker to give the hospitals a chance.


some people couldn’t even stand that. 

So I understand why some people like you don’t have the fortitude after all this time.  Society is starting to get weary of this after two years.

But the light at the end of the tunnel is getting close I think.  Some places are trying to figure out how we live with this.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> some people couldn’t even stand that.
> 
> So I understand why some people like you don’t have the fortitude after all this time.  Society is starting to get weary of this after two years.
> 
> But the light at the end of the tunnel is getting close I think.  Some places are trying to figure out how we live with this.


Hahahahaha

Funny joke. 

Unless you were serious, and in that case, what the hell do you think is pointing to that?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Altair said:


> ... We are paying the butchers bill for getting by on the bare minimum capacity for decades ...


That right there.  I believe vaccination will help in the short- and medium-term, but down the road, we'll see how many people want to see (even?) more money spent on health care.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> Funny joke.
> 
> Unless you were serious, and in that case, what the hell do you think is pointing to that?


Omicron is a weaker variant.  Meaning less death proportionally. 

Schools are looking to try and keep running despite the case numbers. 

Vaccinations are rolled out.

Some are starting to say we may be starting the endemic stage of this.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dr-bonnie-henry-year-ender-1.6301202
		



But I get why some are struggling.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Omicron is a weaker variant.  Meaning less death proportionally.


According to some data its 50 percent less likely to have people end up in hospital. 

It's also 3-4 times more transmittable. 

Means our hospitals are still going to be facing a tidal wave. 

But sure, live on hope. Hope isn't a plan though. 


Remius said:


> Schools are looking to try and keep running despite the case numbers.


That should have always been the case.


Remius said:


> Vaccinations are rolled out.


That sure saved 2021. What a great year 2021 was.


Remius said:


> Some are starting to say we may be starting the endemic stage of this.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dr-bonnie-henry-year-ender-1.6301202
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I get why some are struggling.


Struggling? No. Stopped caring.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> Gym owners explain why they remain open despite public health order mandating they close - Maple Ridge News
> 
> 
> Provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry says gyms must close to curb COVID spread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mapleridgenews.com



It's a good thing we have protections against religious discrimination. Otherwise health experts using tea leaves and chicken bones to pick covid restrictions might be questioned more thoroughly.


----------



## PMedMoe

Fitness may be "essential", but a gym membership isn't.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> According to some data its 50 percent less likely to have people end up in hospital.
> 
> It's also 3-4 times more transmittable.
> 
> Means our hospitals are still going to be facing a tidal wave.
> 
> But sure, live on hope. Hope isn't a plan though.
> 
> That should have always been the case.
> 
> That sure saved 2021. What a great year 2021 was.
> 
> Struggling? No. Stopped caring.


Sorry you had hard time in 2021.  I hope 2022 goes better for you.  Even if you think hope isn’t a plan, I still wish it for you.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> It's a good thing we have protections against religious discrimination. Otherwise health experts using tea leaves and chicken bones to pick covid restrictions might be questioned more thoroughly.


Never discount the political power religious groups have.  Gyms got nothing.


----------



## dapaterson

Remius said:


> Never discount the political power religious groups have.  Gyms got nothing.


My impression is that CrossFit is definitely a religion.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Sorry you had hard time in 2021.  I hope 2022 goes better for you.  Even if you think hope isn’t a plan, I still wish it for you.


Oh of course. 

You must have had a very cherry last two years. 

Good for you buddy. 

A shame not everyone can be as strong as the great Remius.


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:


> My impression is that CrossFit is definitely a religion.


That makes Jehova Witnesses look like quiet Tibetan Monks….


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Oh of course.
> 
> You must have had a very cherry last two years.
> 
> Good for you buddy.
> 
> A shame not everyone can be as strong as the great Remius.


I’ve managed despite losing a few people to this. How I deal with it is my own business. 

Some have it better some have it worse. 

Sorry if you feel that my well wishes for 2022 were ill placed.  I generally do that this time of year. 

Good luck with everything.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I’ve managed despite losing a few people to this. How I deal with it is my own business.
> 
> Some have it better some have it worse.
> 
> Sorry if you feel that my well wishes for 2022 were ill placed.  I generally do that this time of year.
> 
> Good luck with everything.


Funny, that isn't what your condescending "you must be struggling" posts are saying.


----------



## Remius

Where did I say YOU must be struggling?


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Where did I say YOU must be struggling?


Correction, your condescending "some people" must be struggling.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Correction, your condescending "some people" must be struggling.


I’m going to move this to PM.  

Something clearly set you off.  My apologies.  

Happy New Year.


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:


> My impression is that CrossFit is definitely a religion.


Praise the Pump and pass the collars. A


----------



## kev994

For those in Ontario the school system presents an interesting conundrum. They sent home 5 rapid tests with each child, but there’s no requirement to use them. So to sum up: if a kid tests positive the entire household needs to isolate for 10 days and there’s no longer an option to confirm with a PCR. If the same kid does not take a rapid test they can go to school as long as they’re not symptomatic, even if they have a high risk close contact with a confirmed case. Seems there may be a bunch of unused rapid tests, assuming the rest of the family didn’t use them for Xmas dinner.


----------



## PuckChaser

It's not an interesting conundrum. It's reality that kids have never been at risk for COVID severe illness, and that the isolation times were unscientific. No requirement to test, no requirement to report symptoms or rapid test results, no requirement for entire classrooms to get shut down because 2 kids were sick with COVID. I pulled my kids from the school bus after their 2nd 10 day isolation as "high risk contacts" for a positive COVID case on the bus. Now they can go back onto the bus because I get to be a parent and keep them home when they're actually sick, not pretending we're stopping COVID by locking healthy people up for weeks on end.

One step closer to the inconvenient truth: COVID-19 is endemic, there's nothing you can do to stop it (save wearing a N95 the rest of your life) so it's time to put on our big kid pants and live with this new seasonal cold.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> It's not an interesting conundrum. It's reality that kids have never been at risk for COVID severe illness, and that the isolation times were unscientific. No requirement to test, no requirement to report symptoms or rapid test results, no requirement for entire classrooms to get shut down because 2 kids were sick with COVID. I pulled my kids from the school bus after their 2nd 10 day isolation as "high risk contacts" for a positive COVID case on the bus. Now they can go back onto the bus because I get to be a parent and keep them home when they're actually sick, not pretending we're stopping COVID by locking healthy people up for weeks on end.
> 
> One step closer to the inconvenient truth: COVID-19 is endemic, there's nothing you can do to stop it (save wearing a N95 the rest of your life) so it's time to put on our big kid pants and live with this new seasonal cold.


Would be nice if

A) We had the hospital capacity to deal with the increased amount of people in hospitals due to this being endemic

B)We could come up with a novel fashion to triage our limited hospital capacity. 

But alas, when the hospitals collapse come January or February, it will hit everyone equally, minus those lucky enough to be in hospitals before the omicron wave hits it peak.


----------



## Altair

BC covid isolation down to 5 days, same with Alberta.

Seems like Canada is taking its marching orders from the USA right now, as I don't think any Canadian health agency is recommending this.

Not a bad thing.


----------



## Czech_pivo

PuckChaser said:


> It's not an interesting conundrum. It's reality that kids have never been at risk for COVID severe illness, and that the isolation times were unscientific. No requirement to test, no requirement to report symptoms or rapid test results, no requirement for entire classrooms to get shut down because 2 kids were sick with COVID. I pulled my kids from the school bus after their 2nd 10 day isolation as "high risk contacts" for a positive COVID case on the bus. Now they can go back onto the bus because I get to be a parent and keep them home when they're actually sick, not pretending we're stopping COVID by locking healthy people up for weeks on end.
> 
> One step closer to the inconvenient truth: COVID-19 is endemic, there's nothing you can do to stop it (save wearing a N95 the rest of your life) so it's time to put on our big kid pants and live with this new seasonal cold.


Except is not seasonal, it’s year around. It’s just more susceptible to be caught indoors vs outdoors.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> Can we keep quebec and the maritimes in a permanent bubble?


 Why might that be?  I’m curious.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Eye In The Sky said:


> Why might that be?  I’m curious.



Because everything east of Ont holds too much sway ?


----------



## suffolkowner

Czech_pivo said:


> Except is not seasonal, it’s year around. It’s just more susceptible to be caught indoors vs outdoors.


Yes but also it has been suggested that the immune system cycles inline with solar exposure. In the tropics with a near constant 12 hours a day it might not matter much but at higher latitudes the reduced solar exposure during the winter can be substantial


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Living in Canada, on the same latitude as northern California and Rome Italy has it's advantages


----------



## Brad Sallows

We are unlikely to have hospital capacity to deal with anything beyond ordinary any time soon.  We're basically cannibalizing other productive activities to make up for that.  Can't go on indefinitely.  Best learn to live with the weak point.  Might encourage someone to do something about it.


----------



## Altair

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477358070305071108
2022 is going to be lovely for our health care system if the UK is any indication.

A reminder that the UK has a lot more hospital capacity than Canada.

But here is to everyone with hope.🍻


----------



## PuckChaser

Czech_pivo said:


> Except is not seasonal, it’s year around. It’s just more susceptible to be caught indoors vs outdoors.


Its seasonal the same way flu is seasonal and can be detected year round but has big spikes in December to February every year. Here's a look at our current seasonal illness - Influenza and look at how the spikes match COVID spikes for the last 2 years: Flu Season | CDC 

You can also see the detection dates of the variants: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants 

Original strain was detected globally in Jan/Feb 2020, but OSINT shows abnormal hospital usage in China in the fall of 2019. We've had a new variant every fall since then. The only reason we've seen big spikes late is because we locked our population away in a panic so "flattening the curve" makes it look less like a seasonal illness and more year round threat. I'm wondering if I can place a prop bet that we'll have another COVID Variant of Concern show up Fall 2022. Could make a few bucks.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> Its seasonal the same way flu is seasonal and can be detected year round but has big spikes in December to February every year. Here's a look at our current seasonal illness - Influenza and look at how the spikes match COVID spikes for the last 2 years: Flu Season | CDC
> 
> You can also see the detection dates of the variants: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants
> 
> Original strain was detected globally in Jan/Feb 2020, but OSINT shows abnormal hospital usage in China in the fall of 2019. We've had a new variant every fall since then. The only reason we've seen big spikes late is because we locked our population away in a panic so "flattening the curve" makes it look less like a seasonal illness and more year round threat. I'm wondering if I can place a prop bet that we'll have another COVID Variant of Concern show up Fall 2022. Could make a few bucks.


Upsilon will not doubt pop up next fall, same way delta popped up last fall, and omicron this fall.

We can only hope it's less severe because if it's more severe and just as if not more contagious...

Regardless, hard to vaccinate our way out of this with new variants popping up annually.


----------



## Czech_pivo

PuckChaser said:


> Its seasonal the same way flu is seasonal and can be detected year round but has big spikes in December to February every year. Here's a look at our current seasonal illness - Influenza and look at how the spikes match COVID spikes for the last 2 years: Flu Season | CDC
> 
> You can also see the detection dates of the variants: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants
> 
> Original strain was detected globally in Jan/Feb 2020, but OSINT shows abnormal hospital usage in China in the fall of 2019. We've had a new variant every fall since then. The only reason we've seen big spikes late is because we locked our population away in a panic so "flattening the curve" makes it look less like a seasonal illness and more year round threat. I'm wondering if I can place a prop bet that we'll have another COVID Variant of Concern show up Fall 2022. Could make a few bucks.


The Delta variant did not come in the fall, but in the summer. The R factor of Delta was only a 1.2 to 1.3, a main reason why it took so much time for it to snowball into the fall, add in the fact the that Delta was overwhelmingly a pandemic for the unvaxxed. A decision could have been made to ‘screw the unvaxxed’ and let the rest of us live normal lives would have been interesting if Omicron didn’t come along. 

Also, with Omicron, it showed up in SA in their late spring, which times with our late fall. An R factor of between 6-7 lead to it rapidly spreading. A different world we’d be living in if it spread at the same rate as Delta. Wouldn’t even be talked about here at this point.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Altair said:


> 2022 is going to be lovely for our health care system if the UK is any indication.
> 
> *A reminder that the UK has a lot more hospital capacity than Canada.*
> 
> But here is to everyone with hope.🍻



Really?

Okay, I'm being sarcastic but the usual measurement of national "hospital capacity" is beds per 1000 population. https://data.oecd.org/healtheqt/hospital-beds.htm



_(for quick visual - orange bar is UK, red bar is Canada_)

But that is not to say that Canada's health care resources are equal to the UK's; there are many factors that contribute to the picture.  The other quick measurement is physicians per population.



UK just scrapes past us at 2.8 per 100k compared to our 2.7

That being said, could you explain your statement re UK greater hospital capacity.


----------



## PuckChaser

Czech_pivo said:


> The Delta variant did not come in the fall, but in the summer. The R factor of Delta was only a 1.2 to 1.3, a main reason why it took so much time for it to snowball into the fall, add in the fact the that Delta was overwhelmingly a pandemic for the unvaxxed. A decision could have been made to ‘screw the unvaxxed’ and let the rest of us live normal lives would have been interesting if Omicron didn’t come along.
> 
> Also, with Omicron, it showed up in SA in their late spring, which times with our late fall. An R factor of between 6-7 lead to it rapidly spreading. A different world we’d be living in if it spread at the same rate as Delta. Wouldn’t even be talked about here at this point.


I guess the WHO is lying directly on their website by listing the earliest documented samples of Delta being India in Oct 2020 and Omicron in multiple countries in Nov 2021.


----------



## Czech_pivo

PuckChaser said:


> I guess the WHO is lying directly on their website by listing the earliest documented samples of Delta being India in Oct 2020 and Omicron in multiple countries in Nov 2021.


I was referring to when Delta began to be discussed here in NA, it was the summer, late July, early August and for Omicron, in SA it was their late spring, our fall. 
Which variant has begun here (Europe/NA) during our fall?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:


> I guess the WHO is lying directly on their website by listing the earliest documented samples of Delta being India in Oct 2020 and Omicron in multiple countries in Nov 2021.


Many would say that WHO has been less than honest since Covid came out of Red China. After all, and I can be corrected on this, the ChiComs are one of the biggest contributors to WHO since their beginning. Others are private interests like Bill Gates. Personally, I think WHO is a biased,  bought and paid for shill organization. They may have started out with noble intentions but modern greed and political power has infected the whole organization and rendered it impotent and emasculated.


----------



## kev994

More Restrictions in Ontario 

So much for moving on. Apparently having 1% of the entire population in hospital is a bit of a problem when many of the hospital staff is also also too sick to work.


----------



## brihard

kev994 said:


> More Restrictions in Ontario
> 
> So much for moving on. Apparently having 1% of the entire population in hospital is a bit of a problem when many of the hospital staff is also also too sick to work.


Ford sounds like he just barely survived three rounds in a boxing ring. Elliot sounds like she’s fighting a fire and has realized her exit’s cut off… schools will definitely be closed longer than two weeks if the key criteria is hospital capacity.


----------



## Remius

From what I read it is supposed to peak on the 24th so yeah, will definitely be longer I think.


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> More Restrictions in Ontario
> 
> So much for moving on. Apparently having 1% of the entire population in hospital is a bit of a problem when many of the hospital staff is also also too sick to work.



Government healthcare incompetence is everyone's problem. Waves of restrictions are the new norm.

Gyms are closed again I see. Brilliant move! People can just exercise outside in the middle of winter.


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Brilliant move! People can just exercise outside in the middle of winter.


I bike outside year round, it’s not all that different than cross country skiing, the hardest part is actually not overheating.


----------



## kev994

brihard said:


> Ford sounds like he just barely survived three rounds in a boxing ring. Elliot sounds like she’s fighting a fire and has realized her exit’s cut off… schools will definitely be closed longer than two weeks if the key criteria is hospital capacity.


It was about 10 minutes between the announcement and my kids’ school firing off an email about how this would work. It seems they may have known ahead of time.


----------



## Altair

Blackadder1916 said:


> Really?
> 
> Okay, I'm being sarcastic but the usual measurement of national "hospital capacity" is beds per 1000 population. https://data.oecd.org/healtheqt/hospital-beds.htm
> 
> View attachment 67883
> 
> _(for quick visual - orange bar is UK, red bar is Canada_)
> 
> But that is not to say that Canada's health care resources are equal to the UK's; there are many factors that contribute to the picture.  The other quick measurement is physicians per population.
> 
> View attachment 67884
> 
> UK just scrapes past us at 2.8 per 100k compared to our 2.7
> 
> That being said, could you explain your statement re UK greater hospital capacity.


Puzzle me this then.

How is it that Canada and the UK have the same hospital capacity but the UK can remain open and weather the delta and omicron waves but Canada has needed to lock down for both?


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> I bike outside year round, it’s not all that different than cross country skiing, the hardest part is actually not overheating.



Western Canada was in a deep freeze of temperatures averaging -20c plus windchill. You can't bike in these conditions. 

Closing gyms to healthy vaccinated people in the middle of winter is completely moronic.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> Puzzle me this then.
> 
> How is it that Canada and the UK have the same hospital capacity but the UK can remain open and weather the delta and omicron waves but Canada has needed to lock down for both?


Not sure where you’re getting this rosy picture of the situation in Britain. That doesn’t echo what people working within the system are saying. At least one of their hospital trusts had to declare an internal emergency two days ago because they are “unable to maintain safe staffing levels”, leading to “compromised care” at the hospitals it manages. Hospitalizations are rising in the U.K. They aren’t far enough ahead of us on the epidemiological curve that we should be looking at their situation and taking any comfort in it. They moved from “fuck around” to “find out” barely ahead of when we did.


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:


> Western Canada was in a deep freeze of temperatures averaging -20c plus windchill. You can't bike in these conditions.
> 
> Closing gyms to healthy vaccinated people in the middle of winter is completely moronic.


Like Himshaw recommending outdoor gatherings in December when it was -30 out?


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Not sure where you’re getting this rosy picture of the situation in Britain. That doesn’t echo what people working within the system are saying. At least one of their hospital trusts had to declare an internal emergency two days ago because they are “unable to maintain safe staffing levels”, leading to “compromised care” at the hospitals it manages. Hospitalizations are rising in the U.K. They aren’t far enough ahead of us on the epidemiological curve that we should be looking at their situation and taking any comfort in it. They moved from “fuck around” to “find out” barely ahead of when we did.


I myself have posted about the caseloads in the UK, and how they were bracing for a wave of omicron patients. 

But the difference is the UK doesn't need to shut down to protect their hospitals, and the NHS has yet to collapse. 

So how can the UK manage to tough it out while Canada needs to lock down time and again?


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> But the difference is the UK doesn't need to shut down to protect their hospitals



We don't need to either. Time to prop up those field hospitals and stretcher in the unvaccinated, let the unvaccinated healthcare workers treat them. Leave the hospitals for everyone else and they won't be overrun.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> I myself have posted about the caseloads in the UK, and how they were bracing for a wave of omicron patients.
> 
> But the difference is the UK doesn't need to shut down to protect their hospitals, and the NHS has yet to collapse.
> 
> So how can the UK manage to tough it out while Canada needs to lock down time and again?



Alternatively, the U.K. have decided not to meaningfully protect their hospitals? We’ll see over the next few weeks; the die is cast.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Alternatively, the U.K. have decided not to meaningfully protect their hospitals? We’ll see over the next few weeks; the die is cast.


They didn't lock down over delta, and yet their hospital system didn't collapse.

Canada did.

Yet Canada has the same supposed capacity as the UK.

Ha!


----------



## suffolkowner

Altair said:


> They didn't lock down over delta, and yet their hospital system didn't collapse.
> 
> Canada did.
> 
> Yet Canada has the same supposed capacity as the UK.
> 
> Ha!


Maybe the lockdowns didn't/don't actually accomplish anything?

The BC and Ontario systems have performed differently too. Why?

We need better measures of capability?


----------



## Altair

suffolkowner said:


> Maybe the lockdowns didn't/don't actually accomplish anything?
> 
> The BC and Ontario systems have performed differently too. Why?
> 
> We need better measures of capability?


We certainly do. 

I don't take any system of measurement seriously that says Canada and the UK have comparable hospital capacity. I don't care what the numbers say, looking at performance, the UK has now managed to absorb two wave of ever increasing contagious variants without needing to lock down to protect their health care systems and the NHS not collapsing, Canada has needed to lock down for delta and now omicron to protect the hospital system from collapse. 

Any metric that has the two systems as equals is seriously flawed.


----------



## dapaterson

kev994 said:


> It was about 10 minutes between the announcement and my kids’ school firing off an email about how this would work. It seems they may have known ahead of time.


I suspect it's more likely school / schoolboard leadership making plans in advance because they were bright enough to see the writing on the wall and chose to plan ahead.

I have heard that for the last round of changes in Ontario (to five day isolation periods etc) that public health units learned of the decision by watching Dr Moore make the announcement - no advance notice.


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Western Canada was in a deep freeze of temperatures averaging -20c plus windchill. You can't bike in these conditions.
> 
> Closing gyms to healthy vaccinated people in the middle of winter is completely moronic.


I biked to work routinely in Winnipeg at -35, it just takes longer to get dressed.


----------



## Spencer100

dapaterson said:


> I suspect it's more likely school / schoolboard leadership making plans in advance because they were bright enough to see the writing on the wall and chose to plan ahead.
> 
> I have heard that for the last round of changes in Ontario (to five day isolation periods etc) that public health units learned of the decision by watching Dr Moore make the announcement - no advance notice.


School boards and teacher unions are the ones pushing for the lockdowns.


----------



## suffolkowner

kev994 said:


> I biked to work routinely in Winnipeg at -35, it just takes longer to get dressed.


NOPE


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

dapaterson said:


> I suspect it's more likely school / schoolboard leadership making plans in advance because they were bright enough to see the writing on the wall and chose to plan ahead.
> 
> I have heard that for the last round of changes in Ontario (to five day isolation periods etc) that public health units learned of the decision by watching Dr Moore make the announcement - no advance notice.


The administrators would have had multiple contingency plans in place, with different COAs depending on what the Politicians said.

My Mother used to be the Superintendent of a large School District.  At that level, planning looks a lot like what you would see in the Higher Levels of the Military or any other large organization for that matter.


----------



## PuckChaser

kev994 said:


> More Restrictions in Ontario
> 
> So much for moving on. Apparently having 1% of the entire population in hospital is a bit of a problem when many of the hospital staff is also also too sick to work.


Didn't know Ontario had 140,000 people in hospital. We have a great Healthcare system then.


----------



## kev994

PuckChaser said:


> Didn't know Ontario had 140,000 people in hospital. We have a great Healthcare system then.


They’re saying that 1% of people who get infected are ending up in hospital, so if the entire population gets infected that allegedly where we’ll be.


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> I biked to work routinely in Winnipeg at -35, it just takes longer to get dressed.


No thank you and doesn’t replace a realistic and sustainable fitness routine. People who support gym closures don’t have a daily resistance training program and solely rely on mundane mild cardio “training” or other body weight exercising. The benefits of weight training as a lifestyle far outweigh any negatives of contracting a flu virus while vaccinated. Policy makers are just grasping at the straws at this point with no data to support their closures.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

kev994 said:


> They’re saying that 1% of people who get infected are ending up in hospital, so if the entire population gets infected that allegedly where we’ll be.


But the entire population won't get infected simultaneously LOL so what is the point of this statement?


----------



## kev994

suffolkowner said:


> NOPE


C’mon, don’t knock it without trying it, you just need wool, goretex and a pair of goggles that won’t fog up (that’s the hardest part). It’s extremely popular in the Nordic countries where they’ve accounted for it in their infrastructure.


----------



## PuckChaser

kev994 said:


> They’re saying that 1% of people who get infected are ending up in hospital, so if the entire population gets infected that allegedly where we’ll be.


14.5m people are not all getting COVID at the same time. It's this kind of BS that just stokes unfounded fear and panic.


----------



## kev994

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But the entire population won't get infected simultaneously LOL so what is the point of this statement?


Of course not, but presumably the people who end up in hospital will be there for some time, so I’m guessing there would be considerable overlap.


----------



## Altair

kev994 said:


> Of course not, but presumably the people who end up in hospital will be there for some time, so I’m guessing there would be considerable overlap.


its a darn shame other nations can handle these surges while we are paralyzed by it.


----------



## suffolkowner

kev994 said:


> C’mon, don’t knock it without trying it, you just need wool, goretex and a pair of goggles that won’t fog up (that’s the hardest part). It’s extremely popular in the Nordic countries where they’ve accounted for it in their infrastructure.


right now I'm working on developing my all natural organic insulation layer like a seal or a walrus thank you very much


----------



## Fishbone Jones

kev994 said:


> They’re saying that 1% of people who get infected are ending up in hospital, so if the entire population gets infected that allegedly where we’ll be.


Who cares about infections. Only those taken into care and actual deaths due TO, not WITH, covid as the main condition, (not as a positive test when you go to emergency for a broken arm or die of dementia) is what should be counted. That to me, that is the important metric. Just like the flu. Who cares who has caught it, or how many cases of it, if they are still able to function daily. Only those that have been hospitalized specifically for the flu should be counted. They've been using this case metric all along as a scare tactic, to make this virus a social engineered pandemic. As this continues to motor along, I have less and less respect and inclination to listen to politicians or their unelected medical 'experts.' I'll bet dollars to donuts that if we stopped giving hospital administrations extra cash for covid counts, we'd see a drastic drop in hospital cases. But then, I am absolutely skeptic of anything remotely attached to covid right now. I just can't bring myself to believe anyone in authority. I'm betting history (if it is ever honestly written) will show this as the greatest fraud perpetrated on the human race surpassing religion and climate change. Perhaps we can get Pfizer to spring loose some of the alleged $37 billion dollars they made last quarter to help all those that have lost their livelihoods due to this bullshit.


----------



## kev994

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm betting history (if it is ever honestly written) will show this as the greatest fraud perpetrated on the human race surpassing religion and climate change.


I like how you’ve managed to offend everyone equally in one sentence. That was very inclusive of you.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

kev994 said:


> I like how you’ve managed to offend everyone equally in one sentence. That was very inclusive of you.


You're welcome. It's what I do.


----------



## Brad Sallows

There's a difference between "shows up at hospital" and "needs inpatient care".  The latter number is the one that produces problems, if any.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brad Sallows said:


> There's a difference between "shows up at hospital" and "needs inpatient care".  The latter number is the one that produces problems, if any.


Yes there is. Doesn't change things though. It's just part of my overall disillusionment.


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> Are people not being flown from where there is no capacity/staffing to where there is?
> 
> Why, yes they are.





> As medical professionals in Ontario’s health care system have been working tirelessly to keep up with record-high COVID-19 cases, paramedics with Ornge air ambulance and other paramedic services have been working around the clock to transfer patients across the province in order to help manage strained intensive care unit capacity.



Good for them. Years ago, when Metro maintained a small fleet of buses, they could have helped handle the surge.

Now, they are down to their last two, and both have been out of service for repairs for over four months.



> There's a difference between "shows up at hospital" and "needs inpatient care". The latter number is the one that produces problems, if any.



From reading the "Declination of Transport during Covid-19 Omricon Surge" directive,  they may need to take an Uber.


----------



## lenaitch

The UK has the National Health System, whereas we have individual provincial systems.

I'm not exactly sure it's accurate to say that our healthcare system collapsed - some provinces did better than others.

The measure of hospital bed-per-population may be missing the element of geography.  The UK has a larger population in a landmass that is orders of magnitude smaller than Canada.  I don't know, but suspect that we have a lot more smaller hospitals serving smaller, widely dispersed communities.  When areas in Canada were having ICU capacity problems, they were having to transfer patients distances that would be akin to the UK moving patients to eastern Europe.


----------



## daftandbarmy

lenaitch said:


> The UK has the National Health System, whereas we have individual provincial systems.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure it's accurate to say that our healthcare system collapsed - some provinces did better than others.
> 
> The measure of hospital bed-per-population may be missing the element of geography.  The UK has a larger population in a landmass that is orders of magnitude smaller than Canada.  I don't know, but suspect that we have a lot more smaller hospitals serving smaller, widely dispersed communities.  When areas in Canada were having ICU capacity problems, they were having to transfer patients distances that would be akin to the UK moving patients to eastern Europe.



FYI.... they've got seven 'Regional Teams' and IIRC have similar issues working across boundaries:





__





						NHS England » Regional teams
					






					www.england.nhs.uk


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> FYI.... they've got seven 'Regional Teams' and IIRC have similar issues working across boundaries:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NHS England » Regional teams
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.england.nhs.uk


and scotland, wales and northern ireland all operate their own health care systems akin to Canadian provinces


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> and scotland, wales and northern ireland all operate their own health care systems akin to Canadian provinces


The UK a is also 2.4% the size of Canada in terms of geography as well.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> The UK a is also 2.4% the size of Canada in terms of geography as well.


This geography thing in Canada is vastly overused. 

While there are no true apples to apples comparisons, I don't buy that having less landmass somehow creates more efficient hospital use. 

Add to this 72 percent of Canada lives below the 49th parallel and this excuse fails on even more levels.  People make it sound as if there millions of people living in remote communities like Churchill or Cold lake. 

50 Percent of Canada lives below 46 degrees north! Come on folks, do better.


----------



## Brad Sallows

With a more distributed population, patients have to travel further and more often for particular services.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> With a more distributed population, patients have to travel further and more often for particular services.


Most Canadians live in very densely populated pockets. 

The Maritimes provinces are relatively close to one another, the Quebec Windsor corridor contains the majority of the Canadian population, Edmonton to Calgary corridor, and greater Vancouver make up the majority of the rest. 

So I do not buy this excuse that the geography plays that big a role. Most people, and therefore most resources, are concentrated in the aforementioned pockets, with those outside of them getting transported into them if need be.

So with that excuse out of the way, and comparing the NHS and the Canadian health care system, one can manage a surge in cases, the other is reliant on frequent lockdowns. To say they are remotely the same is asinine.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Ask someone who faces long regular commutes to a regional cancer treatment centre whether geography is affecting them.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:


> Ask someone who faces long regular commutes to a regional cancer treatment centre whether geography is affecting them.


I think it's been well established that, if it doesn't effect a certain poster on here, then it isn't that important


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Ask someone who faces long regular commutes to a regional cancer treatment centre whether geography is affecting them.


What percentage of the total population is that?

Probably not very high. 

So for the vast majority of Canadians they live in one of those densely populated pockets of our country.

And in these cases, where a Toronto or Montreal can be compared to a Liverpool or London, Canada still comes up very short. 

If you want to base your defense of the horrible state of the Canadian health care system being the 15 percent of canadians who live outside one of the major population bubbles in this country, go right ahead. You can piss on my head and try to convince me it is rain, but I'm not buying it.


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I think it's been well established that, if it doesn't effect a certain poster on here, then it isn't that important


It's well established that this minority does not explain why our health care system is has no capacity to spare meanwhile the NHS has managed to weather two variants in a row now without

A) Locking down

B) Having the NHS collapse. 

Canadians are clearly used to paying top dollar for subpar service, and it shows here. 

Oh, it's the geography! The politicians love you all, that much is sure.


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> Canadians are clearly used to paying top dollar for subpar service, and it shows here.



But its freeeeee!

Curfews in a free society in Quebec. 
Maritimes freaking out again.
Ontario repeating the same thing expecting different results.

Never been happier to live in a western colony with the remaining 15%.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Not all of the Maritimes is freaking out.   Ontario is going to online learning and closing down gyms etc.  NS has no new restrictions and students are returning to classes  next Monday, despite record new “infections” (the word commonly used here recently) continuing almost daily.  I’d say NS has done the best at balancing overall on our coast.

I’d wager the national example of people freaking out probably could be awarded to the population of PEI.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> It's well established that this minority does not explain why our health care system is has no capacity to spare meanwhile the NHS has managed to weather two variants in a row now without
> 
> A) Locking down
> 
> B) Having the NHS collapse.
> 
> Canadians are clearly used to paying top dollar for subpar service, and it shows here.
> 
> Oh, it's the geography! The politicians love you all, that much is sure.



You sound like someone from Toronto who doesn’t think anything happens outside city limits there. 

Northern and rural communities are also some of the most vulnerable populations to COVID 19.  

There are plenty of factors not just one.  Geography plays a huge role in everything from vaccine distribution to immediate access to ICUs.  

I get that once  again something goes against your belief in something.  But if you don’t think that geography is a significant factor in this then I’m not going to try and convince you.  
Welcome to Canada.  Geography defines this place.  

We have a lot of issues with our health care system.  Geography is one of the issues that needs fixing as well.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> Most Canadians live in very densely populated pockets.
> 
> The Maritimes provinces are relatively close to one another, the Quebec Windsor corridor contains the majority of the Canadian population, Edmonton to Calgary corridor, and greater Vancouver make up the majority of the rest.
> 
> So I do not buy this excuse that the geography plays that big a role. Most people, and therefore most resources, are concentrated in the aforementioned pockets, with those outside of them getting transported into them if need be.
> 
> So with that excuse out of the way, and comparing the NHS and the Canadian health care system, one can manage a surge in cases, the other is reliant on frequent lockdowns. To say they are remotely the same is asinine.



Does the geography aspect not require more smaller “hospitals” to be build, maintained and staffed to cover these smaller communities and centres, which would draw from the financial and staffing resources available to the applic province or territory?  

PEI is the smallest province geographically and financially; despite there being only 2 proper hospitals in the province and even those with limited capacity in more specialized medical services, there are many community “hospitals” (clinics?) that are maintained.  This has to have an affect on the health care system overall.  If only 1 hospital was maintained in the capital, is it not a safe argument to say that hospital would be better equipped, maintained and (possibly) staffed?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Remius said:


> You sound like someone from Toronto who doesn’t think anything happens outside city limits there.
> 
> Northern and rural communities are also some of the most vulnerable populations to COVID 19.
> 
> There are plenty of factors not just one.  Geography plays a huge role in everything from vaccine distribution to immediate access to ICUs.
> 
> I get that once  again something goes against your belief in something.  But if you don’t think that geography is a significant factor in this then I’m not going to try and convince you.
> Welcome to Canada.  Geography defines this place.
> 
> We have a lot of issues with our health care system.  Geography is one of the issues that needs fixing as well.



One thing that people who’ve never been up North might not consider is “cost”. Everything costs more up North.  Heating a hospital / clinic, salaries for staff, food, etc.   These extra costs must tap into the purse of the health care system.

Not to mention the cost of moving patients if needed.  Pond Inlet doesn’t have the biggest health care center, and if someone from there needs specialist services it’s not like they can jump in a cab.


----------



## brihard

Eye In The Sky said:


> One thing that people who’ve never been up North might not consider is “cost”. Everything costs more up North.  Heating a hospital / clinic, salaries for staff, food, etc.   These extra costs must tap into the purse of the health care system.
> 
> Not to mention the cost of moving patients if needed.  Pond Inlet doesn’t have the biggest health care center, and if someone from there needs specialist services it’s not like they can jump in a cab.


Yup. When I was living up in the Yukon, we had one real hospital in Whitehorse, a couple of small ‘hospitals’ in Watson Lake and Dawson City… Really they were local medical centres. There were small nursing stations in most of the small (largely indigenous) communities… Amazing what some of those nurses could do, knowing that it was just them, a couple of barely-trained part time ambulance attendants, and that was it. And, as a result, very busy ground and air medevac services. Anything serious went south to Vancouver, Whitehorse had very limited critical date or major trauma capacity. Similarly, Ottawa catches anything out of Iqaluit or eastern Nunavut, and I suppose Edmonton and maybe Thompson cover the middle?

Outside of the Territories, the remote and northern parts of BC through to Ontario have significant and very scattered, difficult-to-access populations that have very high health demands and that necessitate very disproportionate committal of resources to provide health locally or to ship people out for care.

Major costs and inefficiencies are a reality for all these rural and remote healthcare systems. While that’s certainly far from the only challenge our system faces, it’s definitely a real one. Vast areas feed into catchments like Thompson, Fort Mac, Grande Prairie, and Prince George. There’s a whole different Canada outside of the urban centers.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Very information post, thanks for that.  

Just watching the news; 200 CAF personnel heading to Montreal to assist in vaccination clinics on request from Qc for assistance.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remius said:


> You sound like someone from Toronto or Ottawa who doesn’t think anything happens outside city limits there ...


FTFY


----------



## brihard

Eye In The Sky said:


> Very information post, thanks for that.
> 
> Just watching the news; 200 CAF personnel heading to Montreal to assist in vaccination clinics on request from Qc for assistance.


I wonder if they’ll be putting needles in arms, subbing out civilians in logistics roles (eg to free up people who can put needles in arms), or both?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:


> Ask someone who faces long regular commutes to a regional cancer treatment centre whether geography is affecting them.


Or someone who has to fly to a major centre for significant surgery - with a mixed chance of getting reimbursed in a timely and/or complete fashion for your travel/living out of town costs, depending on what province you live in.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Canadian Armed Forces deployed to Quebec to help with COVID-19 vaccination campaign
					

The federal government is sending in the armed forces to help with the COVID-19 vaccination campaign in Quebec.




					beta.ctvnews.ca
				




“Tasks could include welcoming people to the vaccination centre, guiding them through the steps to be vaccinated and cleaning and disinfecting surfaces and areas, he explained.”


----------



## YZT580

Eye In The Sky said:


> Does the geography aspect not require more smaller “hospitals” to be build, maintained and staffed to cover these smaller communities and centres, which would draw from the financial and staffing resources available to the applic province or territory?
> 
> PEI is the smallest province geographically and financially; despite there being only 2 proper hospitals in the province and even those with limited capacity in more specialized medical services, there are many community “hospitals” (clinics?) that are maintained.  This has to have an affect on the health care system overall.  If only 1 hospital was maintained in the capital, is it not a safe argument to say that hospital would be better equipped, maintained and (possibly) staffed?


Ontario has spent the last 4 decades closing regional hospitals and consolidating services into centralized facilities.    Family health has given way to clinics.  Take Trenton.  Isn't Belleville your closest hospital for practically every emergency and that is for a reasonably populated area.  The biggest problem with our health system is simply its too big!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Eye In The Sky said:


> Canadian Armed Forces deployed to Quebec to help with COVID-19 vaccination campaign
> 
> 
> The federal government is sending in the armed forces to help with the COVID-19 vaccination campaign in Quebec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beta.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Tasks could include welcoming people to the vaccination centre, guiding them through the steps to be vaccinated and cleaning and disinfecting surfaces and areas, he explained.”



What about calling people's work to tell their boss they can't come to work today, shoveling driveways for people, and doing garbage sweeps?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Jarnhamar said:


> What about calling people's work to tell their boss they can't come to work today, shoveling driveways for people, and doing garbage sweeps?


Just be glad that the Govt still thinks the CAF is useful as a " feel-good everything will be fine now" tool.....imagine the funding if that nugget was not there.


----------



## Czech_pivo

I think that it's a fair comparison, how we Canadians run our Health Care system and how we run our Armed Forces - lean with little to no excess capacity or redundancies.   

I've said it before and I'll say again, Canadians are the cheapest people on Earth.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Geography is one of the issues that needs fixing as well.



aka the "urban vs rural divide".



> Data from the 2006 Canadian Census were used to estimate populations within and outside 1-hour access to definitive trauma care. In Canada, 32 Level I and Level II trauma centers provide definitive trauma care and coordinate the efforts of their surrounding trauma systems. Most Canadians (77.5%) reside within 1-hour road travel catchments of Level I or Level II centers. However, marked geographic disparities in access persist. Of the 22.5% of Canadians who live more than an hour away from a Level I or Level II trauma centers, all are in rural and remote regions. Access to high quality acute trauma care is well established across parts of Canada but a clear urban/rural divide persists.



Not just 9-1-1 response times in rural/remote areas of Canada, especially during a pandemic.
But, it can also get pretty expensive if you require a land or air paramedic. For Covid, or any other reason.

Especially for Canadians visiting other provinces.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/ground-and-air-ambulance-fees-health-care-universal-health-care-1.5817284
		




> Nor did she expect the almost $13,000 bill for ground and air ambulance transportation that arrived weeks after she returned to Ontario.



She could have flown from one end of Ontario to the other for $45.00


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> Yup. When I was living up in the Yukon, we had one real hospital in Whitehorse, a couple of small ‘hospitals’ in Watson Lake and Dawson City… Really they were local medical centres. There were small nursing stations in most of the small (largely indigenous) communities… Amazing what some of those nurses could do, knowing that it was just them, a couple of barely-trained part time ambulance attendants, and that was it. And, as a result, very busy ground and air medevac services. Anything serious went south to Vancouver, Whitehorse had very limited critical date or major trauma capacity. Similarly, Ottawa catches anything out of Iqaluit or eastern Nunavut, and I suppose Edmonton and maybe Thompson cover the middle?
> 
> Outside of the Territories, the remote and northern parts of BC through to Ontario have significant and very scattered, difficult-to-access populations that have very high health demands and that necessitate very disproportionate committal of resources to provide health locally or to ship people out for care.
> 
> Major costs and inefficiencies are a reality for all these rural and remote healthcare systems. While that’s certainly far from the only challenge our system faces, it’s definitely a real one. Vast areas feed into catchments like Thompson, Fort Mac, Grande Prairie, and Prince George. There’s a whole different Canada outside of the urban centers.


While I never lived north like that I have been to Iqualuit and a small community in the Belcher islands.  Real medical access is a challenge.


----------



## Quirky

Eye In The Sky said:


> Canadian Armed Forces deployed to Quebec to help with COVID-19 vaccination campaign
> 
> 
> The federal government is sending in the armed forces to help with the COVID-19 vaccination campaign in Quebec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> beta.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Tasks could include welcoming people to the vaccination centre, guiding them through the steps to be vaccinated and cleaning and disinfecting surfaces and areas, he explained.”



You wanted deployments, here are your deployments. 

Quebec couldn't find 200 people sitting around collecting government services to handle these basic tasks? Shovelling snow, fighting forest fires, sandbagging and wiping down tables. This is the CAF now.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> You sound like someone from Toronto who doesn’t think anything happens outside city limits there.


Is Ontario locking down because of Nunavut? 

is Quebec locking down because of Chibougamau?

No? So relevance? 


Remius said:


> Northern and rural communities are also some of the most vulnerable populations to COVID 19.


Granted, but are the major population centers of Canada locking down because of these places?


Remius said:


> There are plenty of factors not just one.  Geography plays a huge role in everything from vaccine distribution to immediate access to ICUs.


Sure. Is overflow from these more distant areas the reasons that places like Quebec and Ontario are locking down?


Remius said:


> I get that once  again something goes against your belief in something.  But if you don’t think that geography is a significant factor in this then I’m not going to try and convince you.
> Welcome to Canada.  Geography defines this place.


Not to the extent that people are trying to stress. People look at the map of Canada and say, wow, big country! How often do people look at where people actually live in this big country?


Remius said:


> We have a lot of issues with our health care system.  Geography is one of the issues that needs fixing as well.


If I had the time, I would look at where the case loads are coming from all over the nation. I bet you dollars to donuts 90 percent of them are coming the population pockets I mentioned before, and those locals are the ones driving provinces to lock down. 

I would then compare the total square kms of these locations and compare it to the total land mass of the UK. Because people are saying nonsense like the UK has 2.4 percent the landmass of Canada like Canada has populated every square inch of land it has.


----------



## kev994

Altair said:


> Is Ontario locking down because of Nunavut?
> 
> is Quebec locking down because of Chibougamau?
> 
> No? So relevance?
> 
> Granted, but are the major population centers of Canada locking down because of these places?
> 
> Sure. Is overflow from these more distant areas the reasons that places like Quebec and Ontario are locking down?
> 
> Not to the extent that people are trying to stress. People look at the map of Canada and say, wow, big country! How often do people look at where people actually live in this big country?
> 
> If I had the time, I would look at where the case loads are coming from all over the nation. I bet you dollars to donuts 90 percent of them are coming the population pockets I mentioned before, and those locals are the ones driving provinces to lock down.
> 
> I would then compare the total square kms of these locations and compare it to the total land mass of the UK. Because people are saying nonsense like the UK has 2.4 percent the landmass of Canada like Canada has populated every square inch of land it has.


An empty bed in Chibougamou isn’t much use to an overflowing hospital in Quebec City without substantial resources. So sure, let’s say the cases are all in Toronto, that doesn’t mean the empty beds you keep quoting are located there.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Is Ontario locking down because of Nunavut?
> 
> is Quebec locking down because of Chibougamau?
> 
> No? So relevance?
> 
> Granted, but are the major population centers of Canada locking down because of these places?
> 
> Sure. Is overflow from these more distant areas the reasons that places like Quebec and Ontario are locking down?
> 
> Not to the extent that people are trying to stress. People look at the map of Canada and say, wow, big country! How often do people look at where people actually live in this big country?
> 
> If I had the time, I would look at where the case loads are coming from all over the nation. I bet you dollars to donuts 90 percent of them are coming the population pockets I mentioned before, and those locals are the ones driving provinces to lock down.
> 
> I would then compare the total square kms of these locations and compare it to the total land mass of the UK. Because people are saying nonsense like the UK has 2.4 percent the landmass of Canada like Canada has populated every square inch of land it has.


I honestly think you deliberately miss the points people made just for arguments sake.  It doesn’t matter if you don’t accept the geographical challenges this country has.  They are there and part of the issue with health care delivery and access in this country.


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> An empty bed in Chibougamou isn’t much use to an overflowing hospital in Quebec City without substantial resources. So sure, let’s say the cases are all in Toronto, that doesn’t mean the empty beds you keep quoting are located there.



Quebec Healthcare policy: We'll call in Military to move empty beds to large centers. Must be wheels down by 10pm.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> What percentage of the total population is that?



Probably a larger percentage than in GB, where very few people (relatively) are very far from a major population centre and the major population centres are not very far from each other.

Canada's health care system is not terrible.  But it is clear that while we pat ourselves on the back for getting what we think is better value for money than Americans, we are not doing as well as some other countries.  Governments generally are hard-pressed enough financially to not run a bunch of things over capacity, and Canada is no exception.

"This geography thing in Canada" is not overused; it's underappreciated in almost any kind of discussion.  Canada is more sensitive to distance-driven factors for things that flip from under- to over-usage.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> You wanted deployments, here are your deployments.
> 
> Quebec couldn't find 200 people sitting around collecting government services to handle these basic tasks? Shovelling snow, fighting forest fires, sandbagging and wiping down tables. This is the CAF now.


Frankly, the more Canadians see CAF helping Canadians right now, the better. In case it’s escaped your notice, CAF has a major reputational crisis, and will likely be fighting for every dollar it can get.

A few years back after a couple Canadian soldiers raped, tortured, and murdered a kid in Somalia there was a major public downturn against CAF. A few years later some dude named Rick and some of his troops from Pet and elsewhere put in a few days’ work shoveling snow and firing up gennies. That was a cold few weeks for a lot of people, and it seemed to go over well when guys and girls in green helped them out. “Team Canada” usually seems to be a popular approach.

Points to ponder…


----------



## Czech_pivo

Altair said:


> Is Ontario locking down because of Nunavut?
> 
> is Quebec locking down because of Chibougamau?
> 
> No? So relevance?
> 
> Granted, but are the major population centers of Canada locking down because of these places?
> 
> Sure. Is overflow from these more distant areas the reasons that places like Quebec and Ontario are locking down?
> 
> Not to the extent that people are trying to stress. People look at the map of Canada and say, wow, big country! How often do people look at where people actually live in this big country?
> 
> If I had the time, I would look at where the case loads are coming from all over the nation. I bet you dollars to donuts 90 percent of them are coming the population pockets I mentioned before, and those locals are the ones driving provinces to lock down.
> 
> I would then compare the total square kms of these locations and compare it to the total land mass of the UK. Because people are saying nonsense like the UK has 2.4 percent the landmass of Canada like Canada has populated every square inch of land it has.


Part of the issue is simply the fact that smaller hospitals in small cities don’t have the necessary skill sets to deal with complex cases, such as Covid. Let’s be honest here, it takes a special type of physician to choose to live in Thunder Bay or Flin Flon or Grand Forks or Prince Rupert, etc, etc, etc.  The overwhelmingly majority of physician come from larger urban settings and want to live in those larger urban settings, it’s what they are familiar with and where they will most likely find their spousal support, who will share similar likes/tastes/wants. 
How do you justify the costs around setting up a 2-4 bed ICU unit in a small city, surrounded by rural settings, in terms of specialists (both physician/nurse/others) that may rarely be utilized at 75-100%? Staffing would require enough for 24hrs coverage, plus vacation/sick time/paternity. 
In a small place like the UK, England in this case, realistically how far is a person really from a decent sized city/urban location?  

As someone who grew up in Windsor, I can’t tell you how many people that I know who were born in Detroit because the special natal care didn’t exist in Windsor but did in Detroit for pregnant Windsorites. They have policies in place to wave ambulances through the tunnel when going to downtown Detroit hospitals and the entire cost is picked up by OHIP for the deliveries.  Need a heart procedure done? Off to London you go, 2hrs away. Some cancer care is still done in London if you live in Windsor. Same with some traumatic brain injuries.  And don’t forget the hundreds and hundreds of nurses from Windsor who work in Detroit vs Windsor for the better working conditions, opportunities and pay. Same goes with a significant number of physicians.  In the border regions, we can’t compete against the pull of US hospitals, never have and never will. All of these things leads to a degradation of our services and abilities.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I honestly think you deliberately miss the points people made just for arguments sake.  It doesn’t matter if you don’t accept the geographical challenges this country has.  They are there and part of the issue with health care delivery and access in this country.


People use geography as a excuse for poor care way too often. 

Canadian military sucks, well, it's hard to defend such a large country.

Infrastructure sucks, well, it's hard to develop such a large country. 

Healthcare sucks, well, its hard to provide services across such a large country. 

Nevermind the fact half of Canada lives below 46 degrees north in a geographic region the size of the UK.


----------



## Altair

Czech_pivo said:


> Part of the issue is simply the fact that smaller hospitals in small cities don’t have the necessary skill sets to deal with complex cases, such as Covid. Let’s be honest here, it takes a special type of physician to choose to live in Thunder Bay or Flin Flon or Grand Forks or Prince Rupert, etc, etc, etc.  The overwhelmingly majority of physician come from larger urban settings and want to live in those larger urban settings, it’s what they are familiar with and where they will most likely find their spousal support, who will share similar likes/tastes/wants.
> How do you justify the costs around setting up a 2-4 bed ICU unit in a small city, surrounded by rural settings, in terms of specialists (both physician/nurse/others) that may rarely be utilized at 75-100%? Staffing would require enough for 24hrs coverage, plus vacation/sick time/paternity.
> In a small place like the UK, England in this case, realistically how far is a person really from a decent sized city/urban location?


The UK is small, but in terms of scale, the windsor-quebec corridor is 230,000 kms while the total land mass of the UK is 240,000 kms


Czech_pivo said:


> As someone who grew up in Windsor, I can’t tell you how many people that I know who were born in Detroit because the special natal care didn’t exist in Windsor but did in Detroit for pregnant Windsorites. They have policies in place to wave ambulances through the tunnel when going to downtown Detroit hospitals and the entire cost is picked up by OHIP for the deliveries.  Need a heart procedure done? Off to London you go, 2hrs away. Some cancer care is still done in London if you live in Windsor. Same with some traumatic brain injuries.  And don’t forget the hundreds and hundreds of nurses from Windsor who work in Detroit vs Windsor for the better working conditions, opportunities and pay. Same goes with a significant number of physicians.  In the border regions, we can’t compete against the pull of US hospitals, never have and never will. All of these things leads to a degradation of our services and abilities.


If someone needs a ICU bed in Middlesbrough, they are likely being flown elsewhere as well, all things being equal.

It does little to explain how the NHS can weather waves of Covid and the Canadian health care system cannot. It explains why Canadian health care may cost more, granted, but capacity is capacity.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> People use geography as a excuse for poor care way too often.
> 
> Canadian military sucks, well, it's hard to defend such a large country.
> 
> Infrastructure sucks, well, it's hard to develop such a large country.
> 
> Healthcare sucks, well, its hard to provide services across such a large country.
> 
> Nevermind the fact half of Canada lives below 46 degrees north in a geographic region the size of the UK.


The problem is you keep ignoring the fact that those citizens living in remote locations are also entitled to the same level of health care and proving that is expensive.  Because of geography different from the UK we have challenges that factor in that the UK will never have.  In the case of remote citizens the costs associated must come from limited funding.  

If you continue to turn a blind eye to that, you will continue to situate the estimate in your position/argument.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> People use geography as a excuse for poor care way too often.
> 
> Canadian military sucks, well, it's hard to defend such a large country.
> 
> Infrastructure sucks, well, it's hard to develop such a large country.
> 
> Healthcare sucks, well, its hard to provide services across such a large country.
> 
> Nevermind the fact half of Canada lives below 46 degrees north in a geographic region the size of the UK.


You know we also have an east west right? 

Our military sucks exactly because of our geography.  We have friendly ally to our south and 3 oceans (one that isn’t exactly accessible).  We’ve relied on our geography and not enough on our actual military. 

Infrastructure requires a completely different building process exactly because of our geography and climate.  So roads costs more, buildings cost more, rail needs snow removal etc etc. 

Health care access and delivery is affected by geography.

Do you even live in Canada?  Seriously.  Spend more time doing a map recce.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> The problem is you keep ignoring the fact that those citizens living in remote locations are also entitled to the same level of health care and proving that is expensive.  Because of geography different from the UK we have challenges that factor in that the UK will never have.  In the case of remote citizens the costs associated must come from limited funding.


I am well aware it costs more, that part is a given. 

But in terms of capacity, regardless of what is spent to achieve it, it is far less open to interpretation. ICU beds per 100,000 people is the same regardless of what it costs to achieve it, and some will have us think that Canada and the UK are on par with each other. 

I remain a sceptic, simply due to the how the UK and Canada have preformed during the last two variants of covid. the UK weathered it, Canada has not.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> You know we also have an east west right?
> 
> Our military sucks exactly because of our geography.  We have friendly ally to our south and 3 oceans (one that isn’t exactly accessible).  We’ve relied on our geography and not enough on our actual military.
> 
> Infrastructure requires a completely different building process exactly because of our geography and climate.  So roads costs more, buildings cost more, rail needs snow removal etc etc.
> 
> Health care access and delivery is affected by geography.
> 
> Do you even live in Canada?  Seriously.  Spend more time doing a map recce.


So every subpar and poor government service can be hand waved away because of geography? 

Our governments are highly competent and are doing the best jobs in providing these services, and are simply being hampered by geography? 

Well, I guess that will make political debates a lot more forgiving going forward.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Altair said:


> If someone needs a ICU bed in Middlesbrough, they are likely being flown elsewhere as well, all things being equal.



No, they won't. 






						Critical care - South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
					

The critical care department within South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust cares for seriously ill adult patients.




					www.southtees.nhs.uk
				





> There are 16 intensive care beds (level three) at The James Cook University Hospital and six combined intensive care / high dependency beds (level two and three) at the Friarage Hospital.
> 
> The intensive care unit (ICU) at The James Cook University Hospital is situated on the first floor adjacent to theatres.
> 
> The ICUs are named ICU 2 (eight adult beds) and ICU 3 (eight adult beds). We are the regional referral centre for neurosurgery, renal services, vascular and upper GI surgery, and supra-regional referral for spinal cord injuries.
> 
> There are a total of 16 intensive care consultants, one associate specialist and one staff grade. The critical care medical team also oversees the care of critically ill patients in the surgical high dependency unit and spinal cord injury high dependency unit.
> . . .


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> So every subpar and poor government service can be hand waved away because of geography?
> 
> Our governments are highly competent and are doing the best jobs in providing these services, and are simply being hampered by geography?
> 
> Well, I guess that will make political debates a lot more forgiving going forward.


Do you just argue with yourself?  No one said “just geography”.  And who is hand waving? 

You asked why the UK seems to be handling this better.  

Most people here pointed to geography being a difference.  You choose to ignore that because it counters your belief. 

Stop projecting. 

You dismiss geography.  Especially when you are comparing us with a high density low geographical area like the UK.  

You are making apple and orange comparison using your own criteria.  

Despite your assertion that somehow the UK is weathering this better I haven’t seen you account for why the death rate per million there is 3x higher than ours.


----------



## Altair

Blackadder1916 said:


> No, they won't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Critical care - South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
> 
> 
> The critical care department within South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust cares for seriously ill adult patients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.southtees.nhs.uk


Weird, I was hearing how they needed to move covid cases out of Middlesbrough to other locations during one of their covid surges.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Do you just argue with yourself?  No one said “just geography”.  And who is hand waving?


Instead of hearing that we need way more hospital capacity built into our system I hear that geography makes this unfeasible or impossible. Sounds like hand waving to me. 


Remius said:


> You asked why the UK seems to be handling this better.
> 
> Most people here pointed to geography being a difference.  You choose to ignore that because it counters your belief.


I have pointed many times to our geography not being as big of an issue as people make it out to be, many times. You choose to ignore that because it counters your belief, pot meet kettle.


Remius said:


> Stop projecting.
> 
> You dismiss geography.  Especially when you are comparing us with a high density low geographical area like the UK.


Even when I narrow it down to the Windsor-Quebec city corridor, approximately same size geographic area as the UK, people ignore it. So even when geography is less of an issue, people still fall back on geography. And you wonder why I don't take that seriously?


Remius said:


> You are making apple and orange comparison using your own criteria.
> 
> Despite your assertion that somehow the UK is weathering this better I haven’t seen you account for why the death rate per million there is 3x higher than ours.


Because more people are exposed to Covid, thus more will die of covid. That math is simple. The key is that the NHS hasn't collapsed.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Instead of hearing that we need way more hospital capacity built into our system I hear that geography makes this unfeasible or impossible. Sounds like hand waving to me.
> 
> I have pointed many times to our geography not being as big of an issue as people make it out to be, many times. You choose to ignore that because it counters your belief, pot meet kettle.
> 
> Even when I narrow it down to the Windsor-Quebec city corridor, approximately same size geographic area as the UK, people ignore it. So even when geography is less of an issue, people still fall back on geography. And you wonder why I don't take that seriously?
> 
> Because more people are exposed to Covid, thus more will die of covid. That math is simple. The key is that the NHS hasn't collapsed.


You haven’t shown where anyone said geography makes things unfeasible.  Go back and read.  Geography is a challenge the UK does not have when compared to Canada.   That’s what everyone said because you are making apple and oranges comparisons and now making things up.

Yet NHS says it might collapse.  

Just before Christmas. 









						New Covid restrictions are 'inevitable' as NHS 'on the verge of collapse'
					

The Mayor of London says social distancing measures and even restrictions on indoor household mixing should be considered in order to protect Britain's public services as the Omicron variant continues to spread




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




And yesterday









						NHS trusts in England declare critical incidents amid Covid staff crisis
					

At least six trusts have issued alerts as fears grow vital care will be compromised by workforce absence




					www.theguardian.com
				




So things aren’t as rosy and you think they are over there.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Because more people are exposed to Covid, thus more will die of covid. That math is simple.


And why would that be?


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> Frankly, the more Canadians see CAF helping Canadians right now, the better. In case it’s escaped your notice, CAF has a major reputational crisis, and will likely be fighting for every dollar it can get.
> Points to ponder…


The people who say the CF has an institutional problem of X are the same ones that blame gun violence on video games. Instead of holding individuals responsible, they cast the CF as a whole as the problem. The solution is always a course telling me to stop being something I’m not.

Seeing the CF in the public eye constantly doing menial mundane tasks doesn’t help our image at all. Is that our mandate now, assist incompetent provincial governments who can’t respond to domestic disasters?


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> The people who say the CF has an institutional problem of X are the same ones that blame gun violence on video games. Instead of holding individuals responsible, they cast the CF as a whole as the problem. The solution is always a course telling me to stop being something I’m not.
> 
> Seeing the CF in the public eye constantly doing menial mundane tasks doesn’t help our image at all. Is that our mandate now, assist incompetent provincial governments who can’t respond to domestic disasters?


Aid to civil authority is part of our mandate.  So yes?


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> Aid to civil authority is part of our mandate.  So yes?



If you give a mouse a cookie, he’s going to ask for a glass of milk.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> You haven’t shown where anyone said geography makes things unfeasible.  Go back and read.  Geography is a challenge the UK does not have when compared to Canada.   That’s what everyone said because you are making apple and oranges comparisons and now making things up.


Windsor-Quebec corridor, 230,000 square kms

UK, 240,000 square kms. 

Compare. 


Remius said:


> Yet NHS says it might collapse.
> 
> Just before Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Covid restrictions are 'inevitable' as NHS 'on the verge of collapse'
> 
> 
> The Mayor of London says social distancing measures and even restrictions on indoor household mixing should be considered in order to protect Britain's public services as the Omicron variant continues to spread
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mirror.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NHS trusts in England declare critical incidents amid Covid staff crisis
> 
> 
> At least six trusts have issued alerts as fears grow vital care will be compromised by workforce absence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So things aren’t as rosy and you think they are over there.


Oh yes, you can find those articles dating back to 2020. Yet it has yet to happen, correct?


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> If you give a mouse a cookie, he’s going to ask for a glass of milk.


Or the CAF does what it’s told when asked to.  We serve the country not our own personal beliefs or politics. Agree or disagree it’s what we do.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> And why would that be?


Because they don't have to lock society down for every wave, they weather it. But more people infected, more people statistically die. That's simply math. 

But people are not dying due to be being denied care, simply because having 1000 people infected will have more deaths than having 100 people infected. 

But we are not locking down to keep death rates comparatively lower, are we? No, we lock down so hospitals don't collapse.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Windsor-Quebec corridor, 230,000 square kms
> 
> UK, 240,000 square kms.
> 
> Compare.
> 
> Oh yes, you can find those articles dating back to 2020. Yet it has yet to happen, correct?


So all of Canada lives in that corridor now does it?  

Same as here.  Plenty of articles about it collapsing here as well. But you don’t believe theirs for reasons.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Altair said:


> Instead of hearing that we need way more hospital capacity built into our system I hear that geography makes this unfeasible or impossible. Sounds like hand waving to me.
> 
> I have pointed many times to our geography not being as big of an issue as people make it out to be, many times. You choose to ignore that because it counters your belief, pot meet kettle.
> 
> Even when I narrow it down to the Windsor-Quebec city corridor, approximately same size geographic area as the UK, people ignore it. So even when geography is less of an issue, people still fall back on geography. And you wonder why I don't take that seriously?
> 
> Because more people are exposed to Covid, thus more will die of covid. That math is simple. The key is that the NHS hasn't collapsed.


Here’s a fact. The Windsor-Quebec City corridor has a population density of 82/km2, while the UK has one of 281km2, 3.5 times greater.
Greater density means easier access to infrastructure. For example, there is a single highway that runs throughout the entire Windsor Quebec City corridor, shut that down and you effectively shut down the movement people and trade. Can the same be said within the UK?

Here’s an example, air ambulances. The UK has 44 of them servicing the entire country. ALL emergencies and be reached within  10-20 minutes from a call out. Can that be said to occur, in say Ontario? Ontario has 12, to service an area how much larger than the whole UK.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Because they don't have to lock society down for every wave, they weather it. But more people infected, more people statistically die. That's simply math.
> 
> But people are not dying due to be being denied care, simply because having 1000 people infected will have more deaths than having 100 people infected.
> 
> But we are not locking down to keep death rates comparatively lower, are we? No, we lock down so hospitals don't collapse.


Deaths per million.  So no.  Theirs is three times higher.  We’re better vaccinated and we have less population density than them (see Geopgraphy!). 

Sources for your statement about denial of care?  In the UK and compared to here ?

This article talks a bit about nurses being pushed to the brink in the Uk and the growing backlog but sure you keep believing it isn’t happening there.




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/uk-nurses-nhs-covid19-coronavirus-exhaustion-1.6292332
		


And now doctors and nurses are getting sick putting more stress on the system.  I do t think you have a real grasp on what is happening there.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> So all of Canada lives in that corridor now does it?


I'm saying, in the interest of removing as much of geography from the equation as humanly possible, compare the windsor Quebec corridor to all of UK. 

Is this example perfect, no, of course not, but it's probably the best that can be done in terms of a apples to apples comparison, yes?


Remius said:


> Same as here.  Plenty of articles about it collapsing here as well. But you don’t believe theirs for reasons.


For all of the articles saying the NHS should have collapsed 3 times over by now, it has yet to happen.


----------



## Remius

How many times has ours collapsed?


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Deaths per million.  So no.  Theirs is three times higher.  We’re better vaccinated and we have less population density than them (see Geopgraphy!).


Yes, deaths per million which have their root in cases per million. the UK has a much higher case per million count than Canada, so have more deaths per million. 

Simple math. 


Remius said:


> Sources for your statement about denial of care?  In the UK and compared to here ?


Do you think people covid cases are dying at home due to a collapsing NHS?


Remius said:


> This article talks a bit about nurses being pushed to the brink in the Uk and the growing backlog but sure you keep believing it isn’t happening there.


Omicron is hitting every health care system hard. The key difference is the UK is managing to handle it without needing to lock down to save the hospitals.


Remius said:


> And now doctors and nurses are getting sick putting more stress on the system.  I do t think you have a real grasp on what is happening there.


The same thing is happening here, with lockdowns. And I am following the situation in both countries, but I do know that despite it all the UK has still managed to do a comparatively better job at handling the cases and keeping society open.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> How many times has ours collapsed?


Zero, due to locking down. If we didn't lock down, and left things open like the UK, how many times would it have collapsed? 2 or 3 times is my guess.


----------



## Altair

Czech_pivo said:


> Here’s a fact. The Windsor-Quebec City corridor has a population density of 82/km2, while the UK has one of 281km2, 3.5 times greater.
> Greater density means easier access to infrastructure. For example, there is a single highway that runs throughout the entire Windsor Quebec City corridor, shut that down and you effectively shut down the movement people and trade. Can the same be said within the UK?


I am well aware that this is not the perfect comparison, but it is the best comparison that can be made, is it not?


Czech_pivo said:


> Here’s an example, air ambulances. The UK has 44 of them servicing the entire country. ALL emergencies and be reached within  10-20 minutes from a call out. Can that be said to occur, in say Ontario? Ontario has 12, to service an area how much larger than the whole UK.


Correction, Ontario has 20. 8 fixed wing, 12 helicopters. 

Quebec has another 3 fixed wing,I think 2 helicopters? While not all will be in the corridor, 25 compares favorably to 44, does it not?


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Yes, deaths per million which have their root in cases per million. the UK has a much higher case per million count than Canada, so have more deaths per million.
> 
> Simple math.
> 
> Do you think people covid cases are dying at home due to a collapsing NHS?
> 
> Omicron is hitting every health care system hard. The key difference is the UK is managing to handle it without needing to lock down to save the hospitals.
> 
> The same thing is happening here, with lockdowns. And I am following the situation in both countries, but I do know that despite it all the UK has still managed to do a comparatively better job at handling the cases and keeping society open.


Yeah they still have more people dying and catching the virus compared to us. I’m not sure that means better. Cases per million allows for a comparative analysis.  So in that regard it doesn’t matter what the population number is, only the rate.  Theirs is 3 times higher per million. So they are dying three times our death rate.  How is that better? 

You still haven’t demonstrated why or how they are doing better.  Higher deaths, higher cases, stressed system. We have stressed system, lower cases, lower deaths higher vaccination rates.  We have restrictions.  They don’t. 

Both are pushing off non COVID related procedures. 


Altair said:


> Zero, due to locking down. If we didn't lock down, and left things open like the UK, how many times would it have collapsed? 2 or 3 times is my guess.


Ah, so guessing.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I am well aware that this is not the perfect comparison, but it is the best comparison that can be made, is it not?
> 
> Correction, Ontario has 20. 8 fixed wing, 12 helicopters.
> 
> Quebec has another 3 fixed wing,I think 2 helicopters? While not all will be in the corridor, 25 compares favorably to 44, does it not?


Map recce.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Altair said:


> I am well aware that this is not the perfect comparison, but it is the best comparison that can be made, is it not?
> 
> Correction, Ontario has 20. 8 fixed wing, 12 helicopters.
> 
> Quebec has another 3 fixed wing,I think 2 helicopters? While not all will be in the corridor, 25 compares favorably to 44, does it not?


No, because all those assets service the whole of Ontario and Quebec.


----------



## kev994

I don’t even know what we’re arguing about anymore.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Yeah they still have more people dying and catching the virus compared to us. I’m not sure that means better. Cases per million allows for a comparative analysis.  So in that regard it doesn’t matter what the population number is, only the rate.  Theirs is 3 times higher per million. So they are dying three times our death rate.  How is that better?


The way to say they are doing worse is to say they have a higher death per case count. 

they have 148,941 deaths. 13,641,520 cases. 

1.1 percent death rate per case.

Canada, 30,430 deaths. 2,328,541 cases. 

1.3 percent death rate per case. 

How about that?


Remius said:


> You still haven’t demonstrated why or how they are doing better.  Higher deaths, higher cases, stressed system. We have stressed system, lower cases, lower deaths higher vaccination rates.  We have restrictions.  They don’t.


They are managing it better, with less lockdowns, and a still functional NHS. 


Remius said:


> Both are pushing off non COVID related procedures.
> 
> Ah, so guessing.


I'm going off of premiers needing to ship patients out of province and locking down saying that the healthcare system was at capacity. This has happened 2 times for sure, with a 3rd time avoided but that may have been due to the lockdown saving their collective arses.


----------



## kev994

Altair said:


> The way to say they are doing worse is to say they have a higher death per case count.
> 
> they have 148,941 deaths. 13,641,520 cases.
> 
> 1.1 percent death rate per case.
> 
> Canada, 30,430 deaths. 2,328,541 cases.
> 
> 1.3 percent death rate per case.
> 
> How about that?
> 
> They are managing it better, with less lockdowns, and a still functional NHS.
> 
> I'm going off of premiers needing to ship patients out of province and locking down saying that the healthcare system was at capacity. This has happened 2 times for sure, with a 3rd time avoided but that may have been due to the lockdown saving their collective arses.


We ran out of testing capacity a while ago so our case count is known to be inaccurate. In Ontario you can’t even get a test unless you work in a hospital or LTC home.


----------



## daftandbarmy

COVID is 'catch-ing'!

Canada’s richest CEOs saw their second-best year during COVID​Canada’s 100 highest-paid CEOs had their second-best year ever in 2020, even as the COVID-19 pandemic left this country in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.





“Despite the pandemic being a pretty bad year for most Canadians, particularly on the unemployment front, it wasn’t really that bad for Canada’s richest CEOs,” said David Macdonald, a senior economist at The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

Macdonald authored a report released Tuesday examining how much the top 100 best-paid CEOs of publicly traded companies earned in 2020. The report claimed that by noon on Tuesday, the average CEO of these companies would have already earned what the average Canadian worker will make all year.

In 2020, as many Canadians had hours cut or lost their jobs completely during repeated lockdowns and forced closures, the highest-paid 100 CEOs at publicly traded companies earned an average of $10.9 million.










						Canada’s richest CEOs saw their second-best year during COVID - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In 2020, the highest-paid 100 CEOs at publicly traded companies earned an average of $10.9 million.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Altair

Czech_pivo said:


> No, because all those assets service the whole of Ontario and Quebec.


Fair enough point, and again, there will never be a perfect comparison. I cannot find out where these fleets are based so I cannot say how many are in the corridor as compared to the 44 to service all of the UK, but I am saying that the geography of the windsor-quebec corridor is as comparable to the UK, but even narrowing it down to that, to avoid the geographic challenges faced by Canada, I am still seeing how capacity is at capacity in places like Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto and Kingston, and how these places have been crying uncle and calling for lockdowns to save their systems meanwhile the NHS has continued to chug along.

Geography aside, the Canadian health care system cannot handle the same stress loads as the UK.


----------



## Altair

kev994 said:


> We ran out of testing capacity a while ago so our case count is known to be inaccurate. In Ontario you can’t even get a test unless you work in a hospital or LTC home.


Relatively recent development, no?


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Yes, deaths per million which have their root in cases per million. the UK has a much higher case per million count than Canada, so have more deaths per million.
> 
> Simple math.
> 
> Do you think people covid cases are dying at home due to a collapsing NHS?
> 
> Omicron is hitting every health care system hard. The key difference is the UK is managing to handle it without needing to lock down to save the hospitals.
> 
> The same thing is happening here, with lockdowns. And I am following the situation in both countries, but I do know that despite it all the UK has still managed to do a comparatively better job at handling the cases and keeping society open.


Do you think that "keeping society open" has had an effect on number of cases, and number of deaths?

Do you advocate following the Johnson gov't's approach here?  Are you supportive of the Kenney gov't's approach?

How do you define "lockdown", and which provinces are you including / excluding in your definition when you keep referring to "Canada" being "locked down"?


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> The way to say they are doing worse is to say they have a higher death per case count.
> 
> they have 148,941 deaths. 13,641,520 cases.
> 
> 1.1 percent death rate per case.
> 
> Canada, 30,430 deaths. 2,328,541 cases.
> 
> 1.3 percent death rate per case.
> 
> How about that?
> 
> They are managing it better, with less lockdowns, and a still functional NHS.
> 
> I'm going off of premiers needing to ship patients out of province and locking down saying that the healthcare system was at capacity. This has happened 2 times for sure, with a 3rd time avoided but that may have been due to the lockdown saving their collective arses.


You’re choosing the metric that serves your narrative. Case count isn’t a suitable metric.  We all know that.  Hospitalisations and sadly deaths per population count.   You can find all of that on various calculations and stats signes. 

Right, and patients in the UK are also being moved and procedures postponed and sent home.  Just they have more people dying of COVID than here.  By number which is how you are looking at it but also proportionality which is what I am looking at.   How is that better? 

We aren’t doing good here but to say that somehow the UK is doing better because they have no restrictions is being disingenuous.  They aren’t doing better. It looks like they are actually doing worse.


----------



## kev994

Altair said:


> Relatively recent development, no?


True but even before they officially stopped I know people who didn’t bother going because they were a close contact to a positive case, had the same symptoms, and the wait time for results was ~4 days. Admittedly I have no idea whether the UK has the same problem.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Fair enough point, and again, there will never be a perfect comparison. I cannot find out where these fleets are based so I cannot say how many are in the corridor as compared to the 44 to service all of the UK, but I am saying that the geography of the windsor-quebec corridor is as comparable to the UK, but even narrowing it down to that, to avoid the geographic challenges faced by Canada, I am still seeing how capacity is at capacity in places like Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto and Kingston, and how these places have been crying uncle and calling for lockdowns to save their systems meanwhile the NHS has continued to chug along.
> 
> Geography aside, the Canadian health care system cannot handle the same stress loads as the UK.


Except that NHS is calling for more restrictions and have been.


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> COVID is 'catch-ing'!
> 
> Canada’s richest CEOs saw their second-best year during COVID​Canada’s 100 highest-paid CEOs had their second-best year ever in 2020, even as the COVID-19 pandemic left this country in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Despite the pandemic being a pretty bad year for most Canadians, particularly on the unemployment front, it wasn’t really that bad for Canada’s richest CEOs,” said David Macdonald, a senior economist at The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.
> 
> Macdonald authored a report released Tuesday examining how much the top 100 best-paid CEOs of publicly traded companies earned in 2020. The report claimed that by noon on Tuesday, the average CEO of these companies would have already earned what the average Canadian worker will make all year.
> 
> In 2020, as many Canadians had hours cut or lost their jobs completely during repeated lockdowns and forced closures, the highest-paid 100 CEOs at publicly traded companies earned an average of $10.9 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s richest CEOs saw their second-best year during COVID - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> In 2020, the highest-paid 100 CEOs at publicly traded companies earned an average of $10.9 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca



Who was it on here that told me the rich are suffering like the rest of us ? 

Wanna know why this "pandemic" is still going ?  Follow the money. 

Profits over people... Everyday, and twice on Sundays... The second time for Christ


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> You’re choosing the metric that serves your narrative.


As are you. 

With a higher percentage of their population being infected with covid, they will have more deaths as a percentage of their population. That's just math, but you are using that as your metric for saying they are doing worse. 


Remius said:


> Case count isn’t a suitable metric.  We all know that.  Hospitalisations and sadly deaths per population count.   You can find all of that on various calculations and stats signes.


Again, unless the plan is covid zero like New Zealand or Australia, then deaths per population is simply determined on how many people get infected. The UK, because they have not locked down as much, have had more of their population invected by covid and as such have more covid deaths per million. The math is simple. If we chose to not lock down, and our health care system could handle a surge, we would see similiar deaths per million. But our healthcare system cannot handle the surges, so we lock everything down, which limits exposure to covid and thus keeps our deaths per million comparatively low. But our national strategy isn't keep covid deaths low, its to protect our hospitals. Its the latter that keeps forcing lock downs, not the former. If we had double or triple the hospital capacity we have now we would ride out these waves fully open, death rates per million be damned,


Remius said:


> Right, and patients in the UK are also being moved and procedures postponed and sent home.  Just they have more people dying of COVID than here.  By number which is how you are looking at it but also proportionality which is what I am looking at.   How is that better?


Because they are managing this while open, my entire point.


Remius said:


> We aren’t doing good here but to say that somehow the UK is doing better because they have no restrictions is being disingenuous.  They aren’t doing better. It looks like they are actually doing worse.


Its not being disingenuous, its the entire point. The NHS doesn't collapse, society doesn't have forced lock downs. How is that worse?


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Except that NHS is calling for more restrictions and have been.











						Britain can 'ride out omicron wave' without lockdown as Plan B to remain, Boris Johnson confirms
					

Boris Johnson has said that Britain can "ride out the omicron wave" without the need for a nationwide lockdown, as he confirmed that Plan B restrictions are set to remain.




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				






> Boris Johnson has said that Britain can "ride out the omicron wave" without the need for a nationwide lockdown, as he confirmed that Plan B restrictions are set to remain.
> 
> Speaking at a Downing Street press conference, the Prime Minister said that despite the high number of coronavirus cases being recorded in the UK, there is a "chance" extra restrictions would not be needed in England.
> 
> "Our position today differs from previous waves in two crucial respects. First, we now know that omicron is milder than previous variants, so while hospital admissions are rising quickly... this is not yet, thankfully, translating into the same numbers needing intensive care that we saw in previous waves.
> 
> "Second, thanks to the fantastic national effort to get Britain boosted, we now have a substantial level of protection, higher than any of our European neighbours, with over 34 million boosters administered, including in England reaching more than 90 per cent of the over-70s and 86 per cent of the over-50s.
> 
> "And so, together with the Plan B measures that we introduced before Christmas, we have a chance to ride out this omicron wave without shutting down our country once again."


----------



## mariomike

Czech_pivo said:


> Here’s an example, air ambulances. The UK has 44 of them servicing the entire country. ALL emergencies and be reached within  10-20 minutes from a call out. Can that be said to occur, in say Ontario?



I would not know. Does anyone?

10 - 20 minutes sounds pretty good.

Before the pandemic, paramedic response time to life-threatening emergencies in our town was 11.8 minutes, 90 per cent of the time.
That's to when the wheels stop rolling.  If it's a high-rise, you can add some time to that.

It would be a lot longer wait than that if local taxpayers did not match the fifty per cent funding they got from the province.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Britain can 'ride out omicron wave' without lockdown as Plan B to remain, Boris Johnson confirms
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson has said that Britain can "ride out the omicron wave" without the need for a nationwide lockdown, as he confirmed that Plan B restrictions are set to remain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


Politicians are making that decision.  Boris makes it despite the experts warning him not to because of political pressure. 









						Covid-19: Government ignores scientists’ advice to tighten restrictions to combat omicron
					

The government has ignored its scientific advisers’ advice to impose immediate restrictions to stop the NHS becoming overwhelmed by the rapid spread of the omicron variant.  The decision came after a Cabinet meeting on 20 December, in which members were divided over the need for stricter...




					www.bmj.com
				




Doug Ford was hoping for the same thing but he is now acting on the science advisory board's recommendations. 

And no.  The numbers of deaths per million is used by just about every legitimate COVID tracking system.  It uses proportionality.


----------



## Czech_pivo

mariomike said:


> I would not know. Does anyone?
> 
> 10 - 20 minutes sounds pretty good.
> 
> Before the pandemic, paramedic response time to life-threatening emergencies in our town was 11.8 minutes, 90 per cent of the time.
> That's to when the wheels stop rolling.  If it's a high-rise, you can add some time to that.
> 
> It would be a lot longer wait than that if local taxpayers did not match the fifty per cent funding they got from the province.


Here’s the link to the info that I was able to find.





__





						How many Air Ambulances are there in the UK - Helo Days
					

How many air ambulances there are in the UK stands at 44 as from early 2020, 7 helicopter types are in use by 23 charities.




					www.helodays.com


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Politicians are making that decision.  Boris makes it despite the experts warning him not to because of political pressure.


Maybe its because people have been saying that the NHS was going to collapse repeatedly but has yet to?


Remius said:


> Covid-19: Government ignores scientists’ advice to tighten restrictions to combat omicron
> 
> 
> The government has ignored its scientific advisers’ advice to impose immediate restrictions to stop the NHS becoming overwhelmed by the rapid spread of the omicron variant.  The decision came after a Cabinet meeting on 20 December, in which members were divided over the need for stricter...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doug Ford was hoping for the same thing but he is now acting on the science advisory board's recommendations.


The science advisory board is out to lunch.

Doug Ford said Ontario would be facing hundreds of thousands of cases per day.

The UK has a infection rate of 2,800 per million people (and it has peaked), again with no restrictions. That would give Ontario 42k cases per day. So yeah, completely out to lunch.








						Ontario could see ‘hundreds of thousands’ of COVID-19 cases per day, Ford says | Watch News Videos Online
					

Watch Ontario could see ‘hundreds of thousands’ of COVID-19 cases per day, Ford says Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca




					globalnews.ca
				






> When introducing new COVID-19 measures on Monday, Ontario Premier Doug Ford said that based on current trends the province could see “hundreds of thousands of cases every single day” as the Omicron variant spreads. Ford also warned of an “alarming number” of new hospital admissions.


Out to lunch or lying.


Remius said:


> And no.  The numbers of deaths per million is used by just about every legitimate COVID tracking system.  It uses proportionality.


So the provinces are locking down because of the number of deaths per million?

Is that what you are saying?

Edit:2800 per million, not 2600 per million.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Altair said:


> .... Infrastructure sucks, well, it's *expensive* to develop such a large country.
> 
> Healthcare sucks, well, its *expensive* to provide services across such a large country ...


Refined that a bit for you.


Altair said:


> ... Nevermind the fact half of Canada lives below 46 degrees north in a geographic region the size of the UK.


You're correct ...

... but it's hard to deny that other bit of Canada outside the red g-string that is generally southern and SW Ontario may be harder/more expensive to provide comparable service than the ares within the 50% red g-string.

Unless the solution to Canada's health care capacity issues is, "hey, if you want better health care/services/infrastructure, you can always move."


----------



## Blackadder1916

Altair said:


> The way to say they are doing worse is to say they have a higher death per case count.



Per case rate or per population?  Let's take a look at the comparative excess mortality rate - that's the percentage difference between the cumulative number of deaths since 1 January 2020 and the cumulative projected deaths for the same period based on previous years.









						COVID-19 Data Explorer
					

Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems




					ourworldindata.org
				






If people are dying at a greater percentage than can be attributed to Covid-19, the obvious question is whether the NHS is as effective as the Canadian health system.

In all likelihood, nothing posted here will sway you from your position that the Canadian health care system is shyte and that the Canadian response to the pandemic is wrong despite (with what seems to many on these means) having little to no knowledge of the Canadian or British systems (beyond clickbait) and even less understanding of the many factors involved in "capacity" or "capability" and no interest in accepting another viewpoint.


----------



## Altair

The Bread Guy said:


> Refined that a bit for you.
> 
> You're correct ...
> View attachment 67906
> ... but it's hard to deny that other bit of Canada outside the red g-string that is generally southern and SW Ontario may be harder/more expensive to provide comparable service than the ares within the 50% red g-string.
> 
> Unless the solution to Canada's health care capacity issues is, "hey, if you want better health care/services/infrastructure, you can always move."


Naturally, it's going to cost more to provide comparable services outside of the G string. 

But again, 




Most cases are inside the G-string. Will there be some overflow from outside the G string, yes, of course. Will it be expensive to move people from where there is no capacity to where there it capacity, yes.  But looking at the cases, what percent of the cases are outside of the G string, and how many of those are being transferred within the g string?

On a whole, not that many as a percentage of total cases. But I do acknowledge that this does have some effect, I just disagree with those who say its some sort of outsided effect, a driving factor, aka, geography.


----------



## Altair

Blackadder1916 said:


> Per case rate or per population?  Let's take a look at the comparative excess mortality rate - that's the percentage difference between the cumulative number of deaths since 1 January 2020 and the cumulative projected deaths for the same period based on previous years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 Data Explorer
> 
> 
> Research and data to make progress against the world’s largest problems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 67905
> 
> If people are dying at a greater percentage than can be attributed to Covid-19, the obvious question is whether the NHS is as effective as the Canadian health system.


I love how the goalposts keep moving, that is what I will say. 

I have not looked much into excessive deaths because the deaths are not being defined enough or have enough definitive data behind it, so I do not comment on it.


Blackadder1916 said:


> In all likelihood, nothing posted here will sway you from your position that the Canadian health care system is shyte and that the Canadian response to the pandemic is wrong despite (with what seems to many on these means) having little to no knowledge of the Canadian or British systems (beyond clickbait) and even less understanding of the many factors involved in "capacity" or "capability" and no interest in accepting another viewpoint.


Ask yourself this. 

Will anything posted here sway you from your position, and are you interested in accepting another viewpoint?


----------



## Quirky

Blackadder1916 said:


> In all likelihood, nothing posted here will sway you from your position that the Canadian health care system is shyte and that the Canadian response to the pandemic is wrong



Canadians are a lot of things, but primarily they are incapable of making the right choice if it is a hard choice. The most direct way to prevent clogging up the ICU is to not let the unvaccinated into the ICU. Instead we triage all the morons to the Covid tent where they can receive minimum standard of care. If the unvaccinated don’t care about their health outcomes why should I. 

In the US new hospitalizations specifically from Covid are sitting at 75% unvaccinated.

Time has long since passed where we let er rip and let triage protocols manage who gets care or not. That’s the political correct way of not treating unvaccinated by choice.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Maybe its because people have been saying that the NHS was going to collapse repeatedly but has yet to?
> 
> The science advisory board is out to lunch.
> 
> Doug Ford said Ontario would be facing hundreds of thousands of cases per day.
> 
> The UK has a infection rate of 2,800 per million people (and it has peaked), again with no restrictions. That would give Ontario 42k cases per day. So yeah, completely out to lunch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario could see ‘hundreds of thousands’ of COVID-19 cases per day, Ford says | Watch News Videos Online
> 
> 
> Watch Ontario could see ‘hundreds of thousands’ of COVID-19 cases per day, Ford says Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out to lunch or lying.
> 
> So the provinces are locking down because of the number of deaths per million?
> 
> Is that what you are saying?
> 
> Edit:2800 per million, not 2600 per million.


I said nothing of the sort.  You are arguing with yourself again.

I said you are claiming that the UK seems to be doing way better than us.  The deaths per million indicate otherwise. 

In fact you asked why they seem to be doing better.  people pointed out something you keep wanting to remove from the equation.  

You remind me of the “so what you are saying is” memes.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I said nothing of the sort.  You are arguing with yourself again.
> 
> I said you are claiming that the UK seems to be doing way better than us.  The deaths per million indicate otherwise.


Okay, so Canada is locking down to keep deaths per million numbers low. Got it.

Thank you.

I'll immediately discount every premier who says its about the hospitals, Remius says its about deaths per millions.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Okay, so Canada is locking down to keep deaths per million numbers low. Got it.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I'll immediately discount every premier who says its about the hospitals, Remius says its about deaths per millions.


Now you are being an idiot.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Now you are being an idiot.


You keep bringing it up as some sort of measurement of success or not, so clearly that's what the entire pandemic response is about. Not hospitals, not healthcare capacity, no. 

Remius says its about death per millions because he refuses to shut up about it. Clearly the premiers have it wrong.


----------



## Remius

Stop having a tantrum. 

You are arguing with yourself again finding arguments that were never made. Now you are upset because your narrative isn’t being bought into.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

kev994 said:


> I like how you’ve managed to offend everyone equally in one sentence. That was very inclusive of you.


I wrote this last night but missed my edit time by one minute. So I'll answer your charge here. Of course you elevated things by saying everyone. There's millions out there that don't subscribe to organized religion. So your metric is wrong right there. As well, there's  millions of us that accept natural climate change as a real thing. What we don't believe is the Al Gore pyramid scheme con game. So unless every person that doesn't believe the religious fairy tales is a carbon climate activist, or vice versa, to cancel one another out, you are wrong. As much as I would like to be known as the only person in the world to offend the entire human race, please don't attempt to smear me by exaggerating your indignation.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Stop having a tantrum.
> 
> You are arguing with yourself again finding arguments that were never made. Now you are upset because your narrative isn’t being bought into.


I'm not having a tantrum, nor am I arguing with myself.

You continue to repeat nonsense, and avoid answering questions while repeating nonsense.

I asked you, point blank, if provinces are locking down to keep deaths per million numbers low.

you say, and I quote

 "I said nothing of the sort. You are arguing with yourself again."

And then literally next sentence you say, again, I quote

"I said you are claiming that the UK seems to be doing way better than us. The deaths per million indicate otherwise."

So despite the provinces not taking the actions they have because of deaths per million, YOU, Remius, continue to use it as a measure of success.

So I refuse to take you or anything you say seriously, because you are completely incoherent.

Provinces are locking down to protect the health care system, not deaths per million. If the health care system could sustain more cases, we wouldn't be locking down and we would have more deaths per million. The low deaths per million is a side effect of having a shitty healthcare system that cannot handle higher case loads so we shut everything down to keep cases low, thus total population wide deaths per million low.

You flash it out as some sort of badge of honour when it is an indictment of our system.

The USA, the UK, both are operating largely as if things were normal, and their health care systems have not collapsed. Their death rates are higher because more people have gotten covid because of operating as normal.

You, and Canada by extension, and the smug oh our deaths are lower are simply giving the governments at the federal and provincial level a pass for not having the capacity in our system to handle covid cases, capacity that the UK and USA have proven to have. So you can take that misguided smugness and shove it.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> I'm not having a tantrum, nor am I arguing with myself.
> 
> You continue to repeat nonsense, and avoid answering questions while repeating nonsense.
> 
> I asked you, point blank, if provinces are locking down to keep deaths per million numbers low.
> 
> you say, and I quote
> 
> "I said nothing of the sort. You are arguing with yourself again."
> 
> And then literally next sentence you say, again, I quote
> 
> "I said you are claiming that the UK seems to be doing way better than us. The deaths per million indicate otherwise."
> 
> So despite the provinces not taking the actions they have because of deaths per million, YOU, Remius, continue to use it as a measure of success.
> 
> So I refuse to take you or anything you say seriously, because you are completely incoherent.
> 
> Provinces are locking down to protect the health care system, not deaths per million. If the health care system could sustain more cases, we wouldn't be locking down and we would have more deaths per million. The low deaths per million is a side effect of having a shitty healthcare system that cannot handle higher case loads so we shut everything down to keep cases low, thus total population wide deaths per million low.
> 
> You flash it out as some sort of badge of honour when it is an indictment of our system.
> 
> The USA, the UK, both are operating largely as if things were normal, and their health care systems have not collapsed. Their death rates are higher because more people have gotten covid because of operating as normal.
> 
> You, and Canada by extension, and the smug oh our deaths are lower are simply giving the governments at the federal and provincial level a pass for not having the capacity in our system to handle covid cases, capacity that the UK and USA have proven to have. So you can take that misguided smugness and shove it.


I’m sorry you can’t understand what most people are posting here. 

Maybe someone can explain it better than me. 

But keep fighting those windmills on the forum.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I’m sorry you can’t understand what most people are posting here.
> 
> Maybe someone can explain it better than me.
> 
> But keep fighting those windmills on the forum.


----------



## Altair

I also like how everyone ignored how either,

Doug Ford is lying about what the science advisory board told him.

Or

The science advisory board is lying to Doug Ford.

Or

The science advisory board is incompetent.


----------



## Altair

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478470030559899648
And to top things off, for the let it rip supporters, letting people get infected with Omicron will act as a natural booster for many.

Its a shame our health care system cannot handle that. But the USA and UK will be ahead of us in terms of being protected against covid until such a time that we can get our population boosted.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Altair said:


> I also like how everyone ignored how either,
> 
> Doug Ford is lying about what the science advisory board told him.
> 
> Or
> 
> The science advisory board is lying to Doug Ford.
> 
> Or
> 
> The science advisory board is incompetent.


As much as I value the input of the science board, those in the medical profession are bound by their Hippocratic oath to protect/treat lives beyond all else and as a result will tilt their responses/opinions towards this end of the scale. 
There are very few (any?) on the Ontario board who are looking at the big picture from a perspective of opening up society/economy and letting things fall where they may.  We are forfeiting our grandchildren’s future by putting such a huge bubble around those 70+ and pushing our deficits to levels comparable to Greece, Spain, Italy. The ‘leaders’ at the Federal level will try the most simplest method possible to get us out of this mess, by massively increasing immigration to the tune of 500+k a year within the next 3-5yrs. This of course will further lead to more housing crisis’s, a further eroding of any remaining ‘Canadian’ culture/identity and more loss of prime farm land in SW Ontario, among more other issues.


----------



## Altair

Czech_pivo said:


> As much as I value the input of the science board, those in the medical profession are bound by their Hippocratic oath to protect/treat lives beyond all else and as a result will tilt their responses/opinions towards this end of the scale.



This end of the scale? By somehow have double the cases per million than the fully open UK?

They are completely out to lunch or lying.

or Ford is lying.


Czech_pivo said:


> There are very few (any?) on the Ontario board who are looking at the big picture from a perspective of opening up society/economy and letting things fall where they may.  We are forfeiting our grandchildren’s future by putting such a huge bubble around those 70+ and pushing our deficits to levels comparable to Greece, Spain, Italy. The ‘leaders’ at the Federal level will try the most simplest method possible to get us out of this mess, by massively increasing immigration to the tune of 500+k a year within the next 3-5yrs. This of course will further lead to more housing crisis’s, a further eroding of any remaining ‘Canadian’ culture/identity and more loss of prime farm land in SW Ontario, among more other issues.


Canada has a lot of space and capacity to absorb immigrants, I'm not too concerned about this.

Debt is going to be concerning when rates rise but not until then. But that is a topic for another thread.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> I would not know. Does anyone?
> 
> 10 - 20 minutes sounds pretty good.
> 
> Before the pandemic, paramedic response time to life-threatening emergencies in our town was 11.8 minutes, 90 per cent of the time.
> That's to when the wheels stop rolling.  If it's a high-rise, you can add some time to that.
> 
> It would be a lot longer wait than that if local taxpayers did not match the fifty per cent funding they got from the province.


Not even close.  According to Ornge's 2019-2020 annual report, scene response only represents about 7% of their missions, which sort of makes sense since in a lot of the province the base is so far away that it makes more sense to get the patient to a hospital for further stabilization ('scene work' is only done by rotary).  Their actual scene response times isn't all that bad; 23 minutes, which is great if you're on Hwy 401 or otherwise near one of their 7 rotary bases.  Their larger bread and butter is inter-facility 'Life and Limb' transfer (including getting the above patient from a local hospital to a trauma centre).  That average was about 260 minutes (round trip), which makes sense given our (there it is again rearing its ugly head) - geography.

They show 8 rotary and 4 fixed wing.





__





						Loading...
					





					www.ornge.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

Remius said:


> Stop having a tantrum.
> 
> You are arguing with yourself again finding arguments that were never made. Now you are upset because your narrative isn’t being bought into.


I have a few people on ignore, so can’t see some posts, but I can imagine.

Is this a person who wanted everyone to eat crow about the Government, being led by His Gloriousness of the Rideau Hall Cottage, getting vaccines in a timely fashion…and what was the target he wanted everyone to bow down to an pay homage to H.G.R.H.C.’s pledge to Canadians…ah yes, 100% vaccination of eligible Canadians by 30 September….2021.

Even with a few days grace (3 Oct 21) we were still only at 88.314%…I figure that was 11.686% short of PMJT’s promise.

Maybe said member could honour up and eat his own crow by being quiet in this thread?


----------



## Remius

For anyone interested in how the Brits are employing their military for COVID.









						Operation Rescript - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




700 were sent to support NHS in December who apparently are “chugging along” just fine.


----------



## Altair

Good2Golf said:


> I have a few people on ignore, so can’t see some posts, but I can imagine.
> 
> Is this a person who wanted everyone to eat crow about the Government, being led by His Gloriousness of the Rideau Hall Cottage, getting vaccines in a timely fashion…and what was the target he wanted everyone to bow down to an pay homage to H.G.R.H.C.’s pledge to Canadians…ah yes, 100% vaccination of eligible Canadians by 30 September….2021.
> 
> Even with a few days grace (3 Oct 21) we were still only at 88.314%…I figure that was 11.686% short of PMJT’s promise.
> 
> Maybe said member could honour up and eat his own crow by being quiet in this thread?
> 
> View attachment 67916


I would if I were wrong, but you're a liar so I won't.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> For anyone interested in how the Brits are employing their military for COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Operation Rescript - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 700 were sent to support NHS in December who apparently are “chugging along” just fine.


Meanwhile we have had to do the same, and be locked down, again point to NHS.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Meanwhile we have had to do the same, and be locked down, again point to NHS.



We have not deployed anywhere near the same amount of troops or assets.


----------



## Altair

lenaitch said:


> Not even close.  According to Ornge's 2019-2020 annual report, scene response only represents about 7% of their missions, which sort of makes sense since in a lot of the province the base is so far away that it makes more sense to get the patient to a hospital for further stabilization ('scene work' is only done by rotary).  Their actual scene response times isn't all that bad; 23 minutes, which is great if you're on Hwy 401 or otherwise near one of their 7 rotary bases.  Their larger bread and butter is inter-facility 'Life and Limb' transfer (including getting the above patient from a local hospital to a trauma centre).  That average was about 260 minutes (round trip), which makes sense given our (there it is again rearing its ugly head) - geography.
> 
> They show 8 rotary and 4 fixed wing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ornge.ca


I was going off of this


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> We have not deployed anywhere near the same amount of troops or assets.


We haven't had nearly as many cases nor have we stayed open.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> We haven't had nearly as many cases nor have we stayed open.


So we’ve been closed this whole time?  Partial restrictions started today in Ontario.   In Dec we were as open as the UK was. That’s when they sent 700 troops to help NHS. 

And only England is open,  Scotland, Wales and NI all have some restrictions.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> So we’ve been closed this whole time?  Partial restrictions started today in Ontario.   In Dec we were as open as the UK was. That’s when they sent 700 troops to help NHS.
> 
> And only England is open,  Scotland, Wales and NI all have some restrictions.


Okay, fair enough. That was around their peak omicron wave, so I guess we shall wait and see how Canada does during its peak. 

Hard to compare though, as again, the UK has not locked down during omicron meanwhile more than 60 percent of Canada has.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Okay, fair enough. That was around their peak omicron wave, so I guess we shall wait and see how Canada does during its peak.
> 
> Hard to compare though, as again, the UK has not locked down during omicron meanwhile more than 60 percent of Canada has.


All indications are that they have yet to reach the Peak nationally.  London may be peaking now or is close to it.  That may be a bellwether for the rest of the country.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Altair said:


> Okay, fair enough. That was around their peak omicron wave, so I guess we shall wait and see how Canada does during its peak.
> 
> Hard to compare though, as again, the UK has not locked down during omicron meanwhile more than 60 percent of Canada has.


We’re in a supposed lockdown in Quebec and I managed to go shopping today.  We’re not in lockdown.  We are under restrictions.


----------



## kev994

SupersonicMax said:


> We’re in a supposed lockdown in Quebec and I managed to go shopping today.  We’re not in lockdown.  We are under restrictions.


And Dougie says that we’re in a ‘revised reopening phase’… sure feels like they locked things.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> I am well aware it costs more, that part is a given.



Ok.


Altair said:


> But in terms of capacity, regardless of what is spent to achieve it, it is far less open to interpretation. ICU beds per 100,000 people is the same regardless of what it costs to achieve it, and some will have us think that Canada and the UK are on par with each other.
> 
> I remain a sceptic, simply due to the how the UK and Canada have preformed during the last two variants of covid. the UK weathered it, Canada has not.



The highlighted part is a bit of a contradiction of itself, isn't it?   The costs associated with the X amount of ICU beds isn't going to the same between nations, for a whole bunch of different reasons.

Was the UK weathering it by "luck, not design"?  What is used as the measuring stick to deem what the UK did as "weathering it"?

Just as a reminder; lock downs and restrictions are not to eliminate risk (of the HCS being overwhelmed), they are measures to mitigate that risk.  I'm an air force guy, so I appreciate any strategy that is aimed at AVOIDING, MITIGATING and TRAPPING risk.  It's how we teach and employ part of something called HTEM (Hazard, Threat and Error Management).   I view things in my duties thru that lens rather often so it's perhaps easier for me to translate that to provincial gov'ts trying to ensure the HCS can function "when / if is is tapped out".


----------



## Altair

SupersonicMax said:


> We’re in a supposed lockdown in Quebec and I managed to go shopping today.  We’re not in lockdown.  We are under restrictions.


Semantics.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> Ok.
> 
> 
> The highlighted part is a bit of a contradiction of itself, isn't it?   The costs associated with the X amount of ICU beds isn't going to the same between nations, for a whole bunch of different reasons.


I mean, that is also a given.

What I am referencing is when I was told that the UK has the same physical amount of hospital capacity as Canada. That means 2.8 beds per 100,000 which is the same ratio nomatter what the cost associated with it is.


Eye In The Sky said:


> Was the UK weathering it by "luck, not design"?  What is used as the measuring stick to deem what the UK did as "weathering it"?


If a country needs to implement "restrictions" to save the health care system, I would at that point say it is not weathering it.


Eye In The Sky said:


> Just as a reminder; lock downs and restrictions are not to eliminate risk (of the HCS being overwhelmed), they are measures to mitigate that risk.  I'm an air force guy, so I appreciate any strategy that is aimed at AVOIDING, MITIGATING and TRAPPING risk.  It's how we teach and employ part of something called HTEM (Hazard, Threat and Error Management).   I view things in my duties thru that lens rather often so it's perhaps easier for me to translate that to provincial gov'ts trying to ensure the HCS can function "when / it is is tapped out".


Would you not say that having the capacity to have HCS function regardless of the number of covid cases without needing to place restrictions is preferable than needing to place restrictions every time case loads rise?

Or are you of the opinion that there should be restrictions placed regardless of hospitals ability to function simply to limit the effects (deaths) from covid as a whole?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Altair said:


> I mean, that is also a given.



But, is it?



Altair said:


> What I am referencing is when I was told that the UK has the same physical amount of hospital capacity as Canada. That means 2.8 beds per 100,000 which is the same ratio nomatter what the cost associated with it is.



Ok.  I might have missed that post...there's been many to read.



Altair said:


> If a country needs to implement "restrictions" to save the health care system, I would at that point say it is not weathering it.



I'd prefer you to answer my question with an answer, vice a question.

BUT...I'd agree with you in an "Ops Normal" situation.  The last -2 years hasn't been normal, and no one has a crystal ball who is making decisions or the benefit of hindsight. 



Altair said:


> Would you not say that having the capacity to have HCS function regardless of the number of covid cases without needing to place restrictions is preferable than needing to place restrictions every time case loads rise?



Certainly, I would.  I think anyone would say that is preferable.  The question is, if I can suggest so, "is that a reasonable expectation?"



Altair said:


> Or are you of the opinion that there should be restrictions placed regardless of hospitals ability to function simply to limit the effects (deaths) from covid as a whole?



I can only speak for myself;  I am willing to not be able to visit my family in a different, but close province, and to wear a mask and follow the arrows at the grocery store and whatever else that is reasonable that is asked of me as a citizen, if that decreases the possibility I pass COVID to someone's grandmother at the gas station or somewhere "essential". 

So I guess, yes, if restrictions SAVE LIVES....I support them 100%.  If they possibly save lives (AVOID / MITIGATE)...I support them.  Just because, you know....I don't want to see anyone die that can live.  Crazy, I know.

I'm not the kindest or most soft-hearted guy walking the planet either so...


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> All indications are that they have yet to reach the Peak nationally.  London may be peaking now or is close to it.  That may be a bellwether for the rest of the country.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019
Case loads on a whole are dropping.

I would call that a peak.


----------



## Remius

Isn’t that London?

And isn’t that Jan not Dec when you said they peaked.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Isn’t that London?
> 
> And isn’t that Jan not Dec when you said they peaked.


Not that's not London, it's the entirety of the UK.

And yes it is early Jan, late December when they reached their peak. So I think saying around their peak is still accurate.

We are not at our peak yet, and we have "restrictions" in place, so it will be harder to compare the two, but lets wait and see how Canada does.


----------



## Infanteer

Altair said:


> Case loads on a whole are dropping.
> 
> I would call that a peak.



See Figure 6 here. 





__





						COVID-19 epidemiology update - Canada.ca
					

This summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of testing, variants of concern, cases following vaccination and severe illness...




					health-infobase.canada.ca
				




The numbers suggest a similar trend.  Large increase in hospitalization, with no real increase in ICU/ventilation.


----------



## Remius

Remius said:


> Isn’t that London?





Altair said:


> Not that's not London, it's the entirety of the UK.
> 
> And yes it is early Jan, late December when they reached their peak. So I think saying around their peak is still accurate.
> 
> We are not at our peak yet, and we have "restrictions" in place, so it will be harder to compare the two, but lets wait and see how Canada does.


Troops deployed early Dec.  but whatever. Lol.

So why does it say London specifically comparing cases to ventilator use? 

Here is the UK data as of today. 









						England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
					

Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.




					coronavirus.data.gov.uk
				




Doesn’t look like a peak but may be peaking.  As I said, it looks like it’s peaking in London but not nationally. Go look at case numbers.  Red arrow up.  Then scroll to the map, find London.  Down there .  But nationally, they have yet to peak. 

London. Is likely a bellwether meaning they may peak soon.


----------



## kev994

Infanteer said:


> See Figure 6 here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19 epidemiology update - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> This summary of COVID-19 cases across Canada contains detailed data about the spread of the virus over time and in different regions of the country. Includes breakdowns by age and sex or gender. Provides an overview of testing, variants of concern, cases following vaccination and severe illness...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health-infobase.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers suggest a similar trend.  Large increase in hospitalization, with no real increase in ICU/ventilation.


In fairness that particular chart says as of Dec 27th


----------



## Infanteer

kev994 said:


> In fairness that particular chart says as of Dec 27th



Yes, the data is always a week or two behind for that particular factor, but the trend looks the same as the UK trend shared by Altair.  In two weeks, we'll see if the data stays consistent.


----------



## Mick

Altair said:


> Not that's not London, it's the entirety of the UK.
> 
> And yes it is early Jan, late December when they reached their peak. So I think saying around their peak is still accurate.
> 
> We are not at our peak yet, and we have "restrictions" in place, so it will be harder to compare the two, but lets wait and see how Canada does.


The tweet says "UK" but the graph (and others) clearly reference "London" specifically.


----------



## Altair

Eye In The Sky said:


> But, is it?


It should be.


Eye In The Sky said:


> Ok.  I might have missed that post...there's been many to read.


Yes, yes there have.


Eye In The Sky said:


> I'd prefer you to answer my question with an answer, vice a question.


I didn't put a question mark,technically. 


Eye In The Sky said:


> BUT...I'd agree with you in an "Ops Normal" situation.  The last -2 years hasn't been normal, and no one has a crystal ball who is making decisions or the benefit of hindsight.


Of course, but it hasn't been ops normal for the UK either, and they have managed to have a society without much in terms of restrictions.


Eye In The Sky said:


> Certainly, I would.  I think anyone would say that is preferable.  The question is, if I can suggest so, "is that a reasonable expectation?"


If we had a better healthcare system it would be a reasonable expectation. 


Eye In The Sky said:


> I can only speak for myself;  I am willing to not be able to visit my family in a different, but close province, and to wear a mask and follow the arrows at the grocery store and whatever else that is reasonable that is asked of me as a citizen, if that decreases the possibility I pass COVID to someone's grandmother at the gas station or somewhere "essential".


You touch on something. If those arrows at the grocery store were not there, would you still follow them?

Probably not. 

You are following the restrictions that are there, and you wouldn't if they were not.


Eye In The Sky said:


> So I guess, yes, if restrictions SAVE LIVES....I support them 100%.  If they possibly save lives (AVOID / MITIGATE)...I support them.  Just because, you know....I don't want to see anyone die that can live.  Crazy, I know.
> 
> I'm not the kindest or most soft-hearted guy walking the planet either so...


Okay, so when PHM go away, you are still going to keep following them as if they are still there?


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Troops deployed early Dec.  but whatever. Lol.
> 
> So why does it say London specifically comparing cases to ventilator use?
> 
> Here is the UK data as of today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> England Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
> 
> 
> Official Coronavirus (COVID-19) disease situation dashboard with latest data in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coronavirus.data.gov.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn’t look like a peak but may be peaking.  As I said, it looks like it’s peaking in London but not nationally. Go look at case numbers.  Red arrow up.  Then scroll to the map, find London.  Down there .  But nationally, they have yet to peak.
> 
> London. Is likely a bellwether meaning they may peak soon.


If you scroll down the thread it said that London was dropping, UK was slowing, so yes, you are correct.

Peaked in London, close to peaking elsewhere.

The NHS under stress from 10 day isolation periods leaving them short staffed, which is why its going to 5 days. But the capacity is there, the beds are there, and despite not putting in the same restricts we see on this side of the pond, they look good to weather yet another variant storm.

So I don't think I'm wrong in saying the NHS has proven more resilient than the Canadian HCS. I wish we could do likewise, but we cannot, can we?


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> If you scroll down the thread it said that London was dropping, UK was slowing, so yes, you are correct.
> 
> Peaked in London, close to peaking elsewhere.
> 
> The NHS under stress from 10 day isolation periods leaving them short staffed, which is why its going to 5 days. But the capacity is there, the beds are there, and despite not putting in the same restricts we see on this side of the pond, they look good to weather yet another variant storm.
> 
> So I don't think I'm wrong in saying the NHS has proven more resilient than the Canadian HCS. I wish we could do likewise, but we cannot, can we?


Which brings me to their unprecedented deployment of military personnel.  Far more than us to assist their health care system.  I’m not going to pretend our system is is be all end all but theirs is far from superior.

We’ve rolled out more vaccines, less cases, less deaths per capita. Our “lockdown” just started for Omicron.  Healthcare is as much about preventing as it is treating. 

The fact is NHS and our system were not built to deal with an unprecedented pandemic.  So preventive measures are being taken here.  England specifically (not the UK as whole) has opted to go with their plan B.  Maybe they’ll succeed. I hope so.  

And I’m glad they are testing the premise there and not here.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> We’ve rolled out more vaccines, less cases, less deaths per capita. Our “lockdown” just started for Omicron.  Healthcare is as much about preventing as it is treating.


higher deaths per cases, more spent on pandemic support programs, more economic disruption.









						U.K. Headed for Best Growth in G-7 This Year and Next, OECD Says
					

Britain is headed for the fastest growth in the Group of Seven major economies this year and next but will suffer a setback if supply shortages are allowed to worsen, the OECD said.




					www.bloomberg.com
				






> Britain is headed for the fastest growth in the Group of Seven major economies this year and next











						UK borrowing falls by almost 50% as pandemic spending eases
					

British public borrowing nearly halved in the first eight months of the 2021/22 financial year compared with a year earlier when finance minister Rishi Sunak was deep in his emergency pandemic spending programme.




					www.reuters.com
				





> British public borrowing nearly halved in the first eight months of the 2021/22 financial year compared with a year earlier when finance minister Rishi Sunak was deep in his emergency pandemic spending programme.
> 
> Borrowing between April and November fell to 136 billion pounds ($180 billion), down by almost 116 billion pounds in the same period of 2020, the Office for National Statistics said.




Just as long as we are listing things.


Remius said:


> The fact is NHS and our system were not built to deal with an unprecedented pandemic.  So preventive measures are being taken here.  England specifically (not the UK as whole) has opted to go with their plan B.  Maybe they’ll succeed. I hope so.


They weathered the delta wave when Alberta was busy crying uncle.

They are weathering this wave so far while most of Canada has cried uncle.


Remius said:


> And I’m glad they are testing the premise there and not here.


I wish we could try things like economic growth and less debt here as well.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> higher deaths per cases, more spent on pandemic support programs, more economic disruption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.K. Headed for Best Growth in G-7 This Year and Next, OECD Says
> 
> 
> Britain is headed for the fastest growth in the Group of Seven major economies this year and next but will suffer a setback if supply shortages are allowed to worsen, the OECD said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK borrowing falls by almost 50% as pandemic spending eases
> 
> 
> British public borrowing nearly halved in the first eight months of the 2021/22 financial year compared with a year earlier when finance minister Rishi Sunak was deep in his emergency pandemic spending programme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Borrowing between April and November fell to 136 billion pounds ($180 billion), down by almost 116 billion pounds in the same period of 2020, the Office for National Statistics said.
> 
> 
> Just as long as we are listing things.
> 
> They weathered the delta wave when Alberta was busy crying uncle.
> 
> They are weathering this wave so far while most of Canada has cried uncle.
> 
> I wish we could try things like economic growth and less debt here as well.


Blame the Liberals.  They are spending and no signs of giving up.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Blame the Liberals.  They are spending and no signs of giving up.


It's geography.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> It's geography.


Yes.  It is certainly part of it.


----------



## Remius

Since you liked to use a Bloomberg link.  Here is another. 









						The Best and Worst Places to Be in a World Divided Over Covid
					

Bloomberg measured travel, vaccine coverage, lockdown disruption and mortality rates.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




Now this is Dec 22nd.  Close enough for your late Dec Early Jan criteria. 

They rated Canada 5th for COVID resiliency.  UK is 10th. 

I guess we’ll see if that might change later but it doesn’t seem to agree with your take.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Remius said:


> I guess we’ll see if that might change later but it doesn’t seem to agree with your take.


It won't matter....


----------



## lenaitch

Altair said:


> I was going off of this
> 
> View attachment 67919


Yes, it says that as well elsewhere in the 2019-20 Annual Report.  I was using the information from their basing map in the report.  I don't know why the discrepancy.


----------



## kev994

lenaitch said:


> Yes, it says that as well elsewhere in the 2019-20 Annual Report.  I was using the information from their basing map in the report.  I don't know why the discrepancy


Maintenance? Helicopters need to be completely torn apart rather frequently. Apparently the military does so more than others but off the top of my head, I seem to remember with a fleet of 4 one of those was always undergoing a routine inspection.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Since you liked to use a Bloomberg link.  Here is another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Best and Worst Places to Be in a World Divided Over Covid
> 
> 
> Bloomberg measured travel, vaccine coverage, lockdown disruption and mortality rates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now this is Dec 22nd.  Close enough for your late Dec Early Jan criteria.
> 
> They rated Canada 5th for COVID resiliency.  UK is 10th.
> 
> I guess we’ll see if that might change later but it doesn’t seem to agree with your take.


Can't read it, won't comment.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Can't read it, won't comment.


Of course not lol.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Of course not lol.


It's behind a paywall, unlike the link I used.

So without details, I won't comment.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> It's behind a paywall, unlike the link I used.
> 
> So without details, I won't comment.


Sure.

Here is a financial post story on the methodology.





__





						Methodology: Inside Bloomberg's Covid Resilience Ranking
					

(Bloomberg) — Everyone is battling the same coronavirus, but quality of life, control of the pathogen’s spread and progress toward reopening look vastly…




					financialpost.com
				




A good one to look at is Community Mobility.  We actually ranked higher than the UK despite your assertion that we are “locked down”. 

Now in fairness, we are 5th, the UK is 10th.  But the actual score is quite close with the balance of the metrics used.  Our score is slightly over 70 the UK is about 68.  

So your assertion that the UK is so much more resilient seems to fall flat when facts are actually looked at beyond one or two metrics.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Sure.
> 
> Here is a financial post story on the methodology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Methodology: Inside Bloomberg's Covid Resilience Ranking
> 
> 
> (Bloomberg) — Everyone is battling the same coronavirus, but quality of life, control of the pathogen’s spread and progress toward reopening look vastly…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A good one to look at is Community Mobility.  We actually ranked higher than the UK despite your assertion that we are “locked down”.
> 
> Now in fairness, we are 5th, the UK is 10th.  But the actual score is quite close with the balance of the metrics used.  Our score is slightly over 70 the UK is about 68.
> 
> So your assertion that the UK is so much more resilient seems to fall flat when facts are actually looked at beyond one or two metrics.


It's an interesting read.

How they can say our community mobility is higher when 24 percent of our country is under curfew is very interesting indeed.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> It's an interesting read.
> 
> How they can say our community mobility is higher when 24 percent of our country is under curfew is very interesting indeed.


Because as someone pointed out, Canada is not actually “locked down” as much as people think.  We are under restrictions.

The resiliency rating is for all of 2021 so likely hasn’t accounted for 2022 but this isn’t the first time Quebec has had a curfew.  

Also note, England is open with plan B but there are still stricter restrictions in Wales, Scotland and NI.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Altair said:


> It's an interesting read.
> 
> How they can say our community mobility is higher when 24 percent of our country is under curfew is very interesting indeed.


In regular times, how many people are out and about between 10PM and 5AM??


----------



## dapaterson

Utah's gonna Utah.  In response, the governor called thus guy "batshit crazy".









						Utah tech executive resigns after anti-Semitic email rant
					

The chair of Entrata, a Silicon Slopes tech firm, sent an email to a number of tech CEOs and Utah business and political leaders, claiming the COVID-19 vaccine is part of a plot by "the Jews" to sterilize people.




					www.fox13now.com


----------



## Altair

SupersonicMax said:


> In regular times, how many people are out and about between 10PM and 5AM??


Probably quite a few on weekends


----------



## Remius

dapaterson said:


> Utah's gonna Utah.  In response, the governor called thus guy "batshit crazy".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Utah tech executive resigns after anti-Semitic email rant
> 
> 
> The chair of Entrata, a Silicon Slopes tech firm, sent an email to a number of tech CEOs and Utah business and political leaders, claiming the COVID-19 vaccine is part of a plot by "the Jews" to sterilize people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fox13now.com


And on a Canadian note of racist anti pandemic measures nut bars.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kevin-j-johnston-wanted-arrest-jail-fakih-1.6303790
		


They arrested him the US.  Dude had one weekend left to serve his time.


----------



## lenaitch

kev994 said:


> Maintenance? Helicopters need to be completely torn apart rather frequently. Apparently the military does so more than others but off the top of my head, I seem to remember with a fleet of 4 one of those was always undergoing a routine inspection.


Possibly.  Owned assets vs. base deployments.


----------



## Altair

People seem very happy to keep doing the restrictions YoYo for god knows how long just so long as we protect the unvaccinated from the consequences of their actions.


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> People seem very happy to keep doing the restrictions YoYo for god knows how long just so long as we protect the unvaccinated from the consequences of their actions.


Off with their heads!


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> Off with their heads!


Nah. We live in a democracy. 

If the majority of people want to continue doing this for potentially years to come, doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result, well, that is their prerogative.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

SupersonicMax said:


> In regular times, how many people are out and about between 10PM and 5AM??


The situation HERE is pretty unique so I wouldn't use it as a qualifier. South Detroit (Windsor) on the weekends especially, are crazy times here. In the Forgotten Times, we would have several hundreds of US citizens, as well as Canadians flooding our establishments. Once everything closed, we wouldn't have our streets cleared until around 04:00. Not a one off, just everyday business. Like I say though, we're in a pretty unique situation here. With all things clicking I can be on my way through Detroit and on I-75 in about 10-15 minutes, including Customs checks.


----------



## Remius

I would argue that Montreal is fairly busy after 10 on most nights.

Outside of that city in Quebec I’m not so sure but I doubt it’s as busy.


----------



## Remius

But at the same time if you close bars, restaurants and theatres then why even have a curfew.  If you look at the exemptions to the curfew you would just have to that to keep people at home between those hours.


----------



## brihard

FWIW, Ontario hospitals and ICUs are now showing a very clear and concerning trend. The 10-14 day hospitalization lag seen basically in every wave in every country is beginning to show correlation with Omicron now. There’s a concerning pediatric trend too, potentially worse than in previous waves- though that may reflect greater precautionary measures taken when kids are involved.

COVID hospitalization in Ontario is only a few hundred patients shy of the peak last April, and appears to be accelerating. ICU is still a long way short, but that lags and is accelerating too.

The Ontario Hospital Association releases ICU stats every morning. It’s one of the metrics most worth watching.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> FWIW, Ontario hospitals and ICUs are now showing a very clear and concerning trend. The 10-14 day hospitalization lag seen basically in every wave in every country is beginning to show correlation with Omicron now. There’s a concerning pediatric trend too, potentially worse than in previous waves- though that may reflect greater precautionary measures taken when kids are involved.
> 
> COVID hospitalization in Ontario is only a few hundred patients shy of the peak last April, and appears to be accelerating. ICU is still a long way short, but that lags and is accelerating too.
> 
> The Ontario Hospital Association releases ICU stats every morning. It’s one of the metrics most worth watching.



And no one's really sure when it's going to peak:

When Will Omicron Peak? Chicago's Top Doctor Shares Her Predictions​Chicago's top doctor offered her predictions based on data from around the globe Tuesday, but said, in short, "we don't know when omicron is going to peak"​
Chicago's top doctor offered her predictions based on data from around the globe Tuesday, but said, in short, "we don't know when omicron is going to peak."

"I've been talking to the modelers and the epidemiologists," Chicago Department of Public Health Commissioner Dr. Allison Arwady said in a press conference Tuesday. "So in South Africa, which was the first place to really detect and see this huge surge of omicron, it took about four weeks for omicron to peak and then another couple of weeks for it to really come back down."

But, she noted, South Africa differs from many countries now experiencing the surge "in a number of ways, including high rates of infection, differing rates of vaccination, a much younger population with a median age under 30."

"Just a different population overall," Arwady said. "So in a best case scenario, we would be looking probably at a peak in the first half of January, let's say."

Arwady said as of Tuesday she is 85-90% confident Chicago will see omicron cases peak in January, but only 50% confident that the peak will come during the first half of the month.

She said the best indicator of what could happen here comes from watching trajectories in Europe, the UK and even in New York City.

"We are watching really closely what is happening in Europe and in the UK, because sort of after seeing that surge in Southern Africa, the next place we really saw omicron surge was in the UK, in Europe. We have not clearly seen yet a sign of decrease in those settings. It's always a little bit tricky around the holidays because testing just gets disrupted in different ways. We have definitely seen signs of slowed increase, which we have also seen here in Chicago, but I will feel more reassured when I start to see some of those numbers come back down."











						When Will Omicron Peak? Chicago's Top Doctor Shares Her Predictions
					

As omicron COVID cases continue to surge in Chicago and Illinois, bringing case levels to their highest of the entire pandemic, many are wondering when a peak will be reached.




					www.nbcchicago.com


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> FWIW, Ontario hospitals and ICUs are now showing a very clear and concerning trend. The 10-14 day hospitalization lag seen basically in every wave in every country is beginning to show correlation with Omicron now. There’s a concerning pediatric trend too, potentially worse than in previous waves- though that may reflect greater precautionary measures taken when kids are involved.
> 
> COVID hospitalization in Ontario is only a few hundred patients shy of the peak last April, and appears to be accelerating. ICU is still a long way short, but that lags and is accelerating too.
> 
> The Ontario Hospital Association releases ICU stats every morning. It’s one of the metrics most worth watching.



What's the metric of hospitalization of vaccinated vs unvaccinated? That should tell you everything about the justification of lockdowns. Shutting down schools is the most catastrophic thing the government can do and cripples the employed with kids under 12. There is going to be a lot of unbalanced and weird kids in the future with all this online learning and no social interaction, but government must protect the hospitals.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> What's the metric of hospitalization of vaccinated vs unvaccinated? That should tell you everything about the justification of lockdowns. Shutting down schools is the most catastrophic thing the government can do and cripples the employed with kids under 12. There is going to be a lot of unbalanced and weird kids in the future with all this online learning and no social interaction, but government must protect the hospitals.


It's probably best to not have kids. 

Which is fine, the gov can import fully grown adults and skip the entire schooling part of human development.


----------



## Altair

daftandbarmy said:


> And no one's really sure when it's going to peak:
> 
> When Will Omicron Peak? Chicago's Top Doctor Shares Her Predictions​Chicago's top doctor offered her predictions based on data from around the globe Tuesday, but said, in short, "we don't know when omicron is going to peak"​
> Chicago's top doctor offered her predictions based on data from around the globe Tuesday, but said, in short, "we don't know when omicron is going to peak."
> 
> "I've been talking to the modelers and the epidemiologists," Chicago Department of Public Health Commissioner Dr. Allison Arwady said in a press conference Tuesday. "So in South Africa, which was the first place to really detect and see this huge surge of omicron, it took about four weeks for omicron to peak and then another couple of weeks for it to really come back down."
> 
> But, she noted, South Africa differs from many countries now experiencing the surge "in a number of ways, including high rates of infection, differing rates of vaccination, a much younger population with a median age under 30."
> 
> "Just a different population overall," Arwady said. "So in a best case scenario, we would be looking probably at a peak in the first half of January, let's say."
> 
> Arwady said as of Tuesday she is 85-90% confident Chicago will see omicron cases peak in January, but only 50% confident that the peak will come during the first half of the month.
> 
> She said the best indicator of what could happen here comes from watching trajectories in Europe, the UK and even in New York City.
> 
> "We are watching really closely what is happening in Europe and in the UK, because sort of after seeing that surge in Southern Africa, the next place we really saw omicron surge was in the UK, in Europe. We have not clearly seen yet a sign of decrease in those settings. It's always a little bit tricky around the holidays because testing just gets disrupted in different ways. We have definitely seen signs of slowed increase, which we have also seen here in Chicago, but I will feel more reassured when I start to see some of those numbers come back down."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Will Omicron Peak? Chicago's Top Doctor Shares Her Predictions
> 
> 
> As omicron COVID cases continue to surge in Chicago and Illinois, bringing case levels to their highest of the entire pandemic, many are wondering when a peak will be reached.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcchicago.com


We have the data from south africa. It's the same variant, it hasn't mutated (or mutated enough) for us to not know how this will work.

We also have the data coming out of the UK.

It's just the typical north america centric attitude to ignore the rest of the world and focus on what is happening here as if it is novel.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The moon must be blue. I agree with you.


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> The moon must be blue. I agree with you.


...Am I wrong? I might be wrong. 

Lets go with blue moon.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Fishbone Jones said:


> The situation HERE is pretty unique so I wouldn't use it as a qualifier. South Detroit (Windsor) on the weekends especially, are crazy times here. In the Forgotten Times, we would have several hundreds of US citizens, as well as Canadians flooding our establishments. Once everything closed, we wouldn't have our streets cleared until around 04:00. Not a one off, just everyday business. Like I say though, we're in a pretty unique situation here. With all things clicking I can be on my way through Detroit and on I-75 in about 10-15 minutes, including Customs checks.


A fellow Windsorite!  Although I've been an ex-Windsorite since I left for greener pastures in the earl 90's.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> FWIW, Ontario hospitals and ICUs are now showing a very clear and concerning trend. The 10-14 day hospitalization lag seen basically in every wave in every country is beginning to show correlation with Omicron now. There’s a concerning pediatric trend too, potentially worse than in previous waves- though that may reflect greater precautionary measures taken when kids are involved.
> 
> COVID hospitalization in Ontario is only a few hundred patients shy of the peak last April, and appears to be accelerating. ICU is still a long way short, but that lags and is accelerating too.
> 
> The Ontario Hospital Association releases ICU stats every morning. It’s one of the metrics most worth watching.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478786231630991360
South Africa is less vaccinated than Canada. 

Ontario will be fine despite the Premier going nuts and spouting nonsense about a hundred thousand cases a day.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478786231630991360
> South Africa is less vaccinated than Canada.
> 
> Ontario will be fine despite the Premier going nuts and spouting nonsense about a hundred thousand cases a day.


We are already much closer to our previous-waves hospitalization peak than South Africa ever reached in Omicron, and ours is accelerating, projected to blow past the previous peak in the next few days.

The virology is the same, but that does not mean the epidemiology is.

If hospitalizations peak soon, yes, we’ll be OK. I hope they do. But hope is not a COA.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> We are already much closer to our previous-waves hospitalization peak than South Africa ever reached in Omicron, and ours is accelerating, projected to blow past the previous peak in the next few days.
> 
> The virology is the same, but that does not mean the epidemiology is.
> 
> If hospitalizations peak soon, yes, we’ll be OK. I hope they do. But hope is not a COA.


Looking at the Data from London, UK, we know this already. 
Omicron causes a increased hospitalization rate but not a increased ICU/Ventilator rate. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019
We know how this is going to play out already, we are just ignoring the clear data from those locals that have already been through this. 

Again, we in north america are so different, and unique, that what happened in South Africa and in the UK cannot possibly happen here, the data is flawed!

No, its the same variant and its hitting human beings. We know how this will turn out, we are purposely closing our eyes and covering our ears and freaking out about what the data says wont come to pass.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> Looking at the Data from London, UK, we know this already.
> Omicron causes a increased hospitalization rate but not a increased ICU/Ventilator rate.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478339769646166019
> We know how this is going to play out already, we are just ignoring the clear data from those locals that have already been through this.
> 
> Again, we in north america are so different, and unique, that what happened in South Africa and in the UK cannot possibly happen here, the data is flawed!
> 
> No, its the same variant and its hitting human beings. We know how this will turn out, we are purposely closing our eyes and covering our ears and freaking out about what the data says wont come to pass.


Ok.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Might be worth looking at curves comparing Canada's flu experience with those other countries.  Season and climate are factors.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Might be worth looking at curves comparing Canada's flu experience with those other countries.  Season and climate are factors.


Covid doesn't seem to care.

We have a lower death rate per million than the UK or USA despite the colder climate, a point often repeated by some here.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the mandate.

City of Toronto fires 461 employees for failing to comply with COVID-19 vaccine policy by deadline​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-staff-fired-covid-19-1.6304988
		


Apparently there are 3,573 municipalities in Canada, so results may vary.


----------



## kev994

My county says that they have capacity for 261 hospital beds and 330 people are using them…


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Regarding the mandate.
> 
> City of Toronto fires 461 employees for failing to comply with COVID-19 vaccine policy by deadline​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-staff-fired-covid-19-1.6304988
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are 3,573 municipalities in Canada, so results may vary.


That’s like 1%. Really, that indicates a win. ~99% uptake is great.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Covid doesn't seem to care.
> 
> We have a lower death rate per million than the UK or USA despite the colder climate, a point often repeated by some here.


Climate could have an impact on a variety things including when something might peak.   There are also several factors as to why we also have a lower death rate. 

COVID doesn’t seem to be seasonal. The flu is.  That can have an impact on capacity assuming flu counts are up or not if we get hit by a variant during that season.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Climate could have an impact on a variety things including when something might peak.   There are also several factors as to why we also have a lower death rate.
> 
> COVID doesn’t seem to be seasonal. The flu is.  That can have an impact on capacity assuming flu counts are up or not if we get hit by a variant during that season.


Unless I can see evidence of a large amount of flu cases in the ICU or on ventilators I'm just going to assume that Omicron will do here what it has done elsewhere. 

Increased hospitalization, little increase to ICUs. 

So when we get nailed by the increased hospitalization rates, I think I can safely proceed in not freaking out as the data points to that being the worst side effect of Omicron.


----------



## OldSolduer

kev994 said:


> My county says that they have capacity for 261 hospital beds and 330 people are using them…


Hallway medicine has been a thing in Manitoba for about 30 years now. And this has made it worse.


----------



## ModlrMike

One of the problems is that people, politicians and the public alike, don't want to pay for surge capacity. If they had mothballed the ICU and in-patient floors in my hospital when we converted from an ER to UC, then we would have had an additional 8 ICU and 70 in-patient beds available in short order.


----------



## dapaterson

My understanding is that the limiting factor is trained clinicians to operate the surge more than physical plant.


----------



## ModlrMike

That's certainly part of the equation, but not necessarily a limiting factor. There's plenty of nurses here who work less than a 1.0 EFT. Doctors, residents, and PAs are also in relatively abundant supply. I speak only for MB though.


----------



## dapaterson

One element I have seen is practitioners working in multiple places, so while an RN may be only working 2x 12 hour shifts at the hospital, she's also working 3x 8 hour shifts in a nursing home (as neither offers regular full time employment).  

In some instances, this helped spread disease.

Pre pandemic planning assumptions that the part timers could surge have not necessarily been borne out.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> That’s like 1%. Really, that indicates a win. ~99% uptake is great.



It certainly is.

100% when the fully-vaxxed replacements are hired.



dapaterson said:


> One element I have seen is practitioners working in multiple places, so while an RN may be only working 2x 12 hour shifts at the hospital, she's also working 3x 8 hour shifts in a nursing home (as neither offers regular full time employment).



Likewise paramedics work 20 X 12-hour shifts every six weeks at the same station.

In a big city, there are a lot of different receiving hospitals and health care facilities they visit.


----------



## kev994

Thread Summary


----------



## McG

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478877912426332162


----------



## lenaitch

Related, but I didn't think this belonged in the 'CAF members suing government' thread, so I'll drop it here:









						'Non-negotiable': Cop resigns from York police, in part due to COVID-19 protocols
					

Det. Const. Mike Rapson said he was not willing to accept the new reality at York Regional Police




					www.parrysound.com


----------



## Altair

Sabrina Maddeaux: Canada's constantly collapsing health-care system is no match for the pandemic
					

To truly move past this virus, we have to inoculate our schools, hospitals, and businesses




					nationalpost.com
				






> We’ve been treating the fight against COVID-19 as 38 million individual battles, rather than a war that requires a united front. Vaccines offer significant personal protection, but fall short on a community scale. To truly move past this virus, we have to inoculate our schools, hospitals, and businesses.
> 
> This starts with significantly expanding our hospital capacity to accommodate periodic spikes in admissions without sacrificing the rest of the health-care system. If Canadian provinces consistently seem more panicked than comparable jurisdictions around the world, it’s partly because our hospitals teeter on the edge of a fraying tightrope. Canada ranks near the bottom of Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries when it comes to hospital beds per 1,000 inhabitants. In terms of ICU capacity, we count approximately half as many beds per 1,000 inhabitants as the United States and nearly a third less than Germany. Even prior to COVID, hallway health care was a regular state of being in many provinces.


All praise the Canadian HCS!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Looks like a group of Quebec party goers, "influencers", finally made it home from Mexico. 3 airlines refused to fly them back to Canada after they video taped themselves on the flight down partying on the plan. Apparently rocking open bottles of alcohol, E cigarettes and someone even mentioned doing drugs, no masks or attempts at distancing naturally. If they end up getting slapped with $5000 fines that's sure going to give them something to blog about.









						Passengers arrive in Montreal following plane party controversy involving Quebec influencers
					

Multiple Canadian airlines say they will refuse to board a group of Quebec social media influencers and reality TV stars on their way back from Cancun who were seen partying maskless, vaping, and drinking in the aisles during their departure flight last week.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca


----------



## PMedMoe

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a group of Quebec party goers, "influencers", finally made it home from Mexico. 3 airlines refused to fly them back to Canada after they video taped themselves on the flight down partying on the plan. Apparently rocking open bottles of alcohol, E cigarettes and someone even mentioned doing drugs, no masks or attempts at distancing naturally. If they end up getting slapped with $5000 fines that's sure going to give them something to blog about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers arrive in Montreal following plane party controversy involving Quebec influencers
> 
> 
> Multiple Canadian airlines say they will refuse to board a group of Quebec social media influencers and reality TV stars on their way back from Cancun who were seen partying maskless, vaping, and drinking in the aisles during their departure flight last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca



Crap.  Too bad Air Canada didn't hold good on their earlier statement about not letting them on a plane.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a group of Quebec party goers, "influencers", finally made it home from Mexico. 3 airlines refused to fly them back to Canada after they video taped themselves on the flight down partying on the plan. Apparently rocking open bottles of alcohol, E cigarettes and someone even mentioned doing drugs, no masks or attempts at distancing naturally. If they end up getting slapped with $5000 fines that's sure going to give them something to blog about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers arrive in Montreal following plane party controversy involving Quebec influencers
> 
> 
> Multiple Canadian airlines say they will refuse to board a group of Quebec social media influencers and reality TV stars on their way back from Cancun who were seen partying maskless, vaping, and drinking in the aisles during their departure flight last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca


They did it for the GRAM! 🤣

Oh well, right up there with the Russian National Team vaping and drinking in Calgary.


----------



## Jarnhamar

PMedMoe said:


> Crap.  Too bad Air Canada didn't hold good on their earlier statement about not letting them on a plane.


Like the Prime Minister says, Barbarians.


----------



## Altair

Grab a party bus and drive the 3 days.

Life gives you lemons, make lemonade


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a group of Quebec party goers, "influencers", finally made it home from Mexico. 3 airlines refused to fly them back to Canada after they video taped themselves on the flight down partying on the plan. Apparently rocking open bottles of alcohol, E cigarettes and someone even mentioned doing drugs, no masks or attempts at distancing naturally. If they end up getting slapped with $5000 fines that's sure going to give them something to blog about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers arrive in Montreal following plane party controversy involving Quebec influencers
> 
> 
> Multiple Canadian airlines say they will refuse to board a group of Quebec social media influencers and reality TV stars on their way back from Cancun who were seen partying maskless, vaping, and drinking in the aisles during their departure flight last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca


A friend of mine used to be a flight attendant with Sunwing.  She described the job as two years of extreme jet setting and hard partying.  

Fly to Mexico/Caribbean with tourists, get extremely intoxicated for a few days at a resort with the pilots and other crew, fly plane back few days later.  Rinse and repeat.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> A friend of mine used to be a flight attendant with Sunwing.  She described the job as two years of extreme jet setting and hard partying.
> 
> Fly to Mexico/Caribbean with tourists, get extremely intoxicated for a few days at a resort with the pilots and other crew, fly plane back few days later.  Rinse and repeat.


I bet Lt.-Gen. Alain Parent and Chief Warrant Officer Kevin West knew about Sunwing back in December 2017.


----------



## Altair

FIRST READING: Canada's Omicron lockdowns among world's harshest
					

Also, why the Americans are spending millions to rebuild a Canadian highway




					nationalpost.com
				






> While plenty of countries are currently experiencing record-breaking COVID-19 cases due to Omicron, *almost none are locking down quite as hard as Ontario and Quebec*. Both Canadian provinces have closed schools and imposed blanket bans on indoor dining, gyms and bars, and Quebec has even imposed a curfew prescribing fines of up to $6,000 for anyone outside their home after 10 p.m. without explanation. Here’s a quick look at how that compares to the rest of the Omicron-plagued world …
> 
> *The U.K. is openly resisting a return to lockdowns in the face of record-high COVID-19 cases* and has not imposed business closures or restricted gatherings. Said U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson this week, “We can keep our schools and our businesses open, and we can find a way to live with this virus.”
> Omicron spikes across continental Europe are spurring expanded vaccine mandates, booster shots and curbs on indoor gatherings. But with the notable exception of the Netherlands, *European governments have avoided closures on schools and indoor dining*.
> Curfews have been pursued to fight Omicron surges in both India and South Africa, *but both countries also pursued much more liberal restrictions on indoor gathering as compared to Quebec*. The Indian state of *Karnataka, for instance, imposed an identical curfew to Quebec, but allowed restaurants and movie theatres to remain open at 50 per cent capacity.*
> *The vast majority of U.S. states remain fully reopened in spite of ongoing Omicron surges*. While there have been some district-wide school closures largely as a result of illness-related staff shortages, current U.S. restrictions are largely reserved to vaccine passports and mask mandates, if at all.



All praise high Canadian community mobility!


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> I bet Lt.-Gen. Alain Parent and Chief Warrant Officer Kevin West knew about Sunwing back in December 2017.


They should have flown on their planes instead, l bet Tiger would have had a great time!


----------



## Kilted

I wouldn't be surprised if there has to be some type of government "rescue" flight to get them back to Canada. Hopefully they are given the bill for it.


----------



## mariomike

> For the last few generations there have always been implied penalties, and a ton of process...to a generation that by-and-large had empty threats made by parents, and other persons in authority. This is likely the first time for many, where it has been explicitly spelled out. x+y=Z, and many don't like it. The online tantrums, and seeking confirmation bias to justify action, has been a go-to for far too long.



It was almost impossible to get kicked out of my former place of employment. Unless you became a public disgrace, they would tolerate almost anything.

Until yesterday, that is. They fired hundreds in a single day. 

Still seems hard to believe. But, they followed through on what they said they were going to do.


----------



## dapaterson

I'm just very disappointed that they fired 461 people.  Do it in two waves, the second wave of 45, and the first wave ... of 416.


----------



## kev994

Humphrey Bogart said:


> A friend of mine used to be a flight attendant with Sunwing.  She described the job as two years of extreme jet setting and hard partying.
> 
> Fly to Mexico/Caribbean with tourists, get extremely intoxicated for a few days at a resort with the pilots and other crew, fly plane back few days later.  Rinse and repeat.


My multi-engine instructor (15 years ago) had done a stint at Sun Wing, he said they had to put the pilots and flight attendants in different hotels because sharing hotels was apparently contributing to too many ‘problems’. Not sure how long that lasted though.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

kev994 said:


> My multi-engine instructor (15 years ago) had done a stint at Sun Wing, he said they had to put the pilots and flight attendants in different hotels because sharing hotels was apparently contributing to too many ‘problems’. Not sure how long that lasted though.


She told me the same.  Some of the stories were absolutely wild.  Insane pool parties, reality tvesque drama, love quadrangles 🤣


----------



## Good2Golf

Humphrey Bogart said:


> She told me the same.  Some of the stories were absolutely wild.  Insane pool parties, reality tvesque drama, love quadrangles 🤣



Sunwing Captain Ron Jeremy enters the chat:


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:


> I'm just very disappointed that they fired 461 people.  Do it in two waves, the second wave of 45, and the first wave ... of 416.


----------



## Quirky

Altair said:


> FIRST READING: Canada's Omicron lockdowns among world's harshest
> 
> 
> Also, why the Americans are spending millions to rebuild a Canadian highway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All praise high Canadian community mobility!



How many more reasons do you need to avoid living in Ontario and Quebec?

Hard to miss the real problem of this pandemic:









						Number of COVID-19 hospitalizations by vaccination status Canada 2021 | Statista
					

Since the start of the vaccination program in Canada in December 2020, around 55,668 unvaccinated Canadians have been hospitalized with a COVID-19 infection, compared to 23,297 fully vaccinated Canadians.




					www.statista.com
				




I'm not the only one:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-unvaccinated-canadians-covid-hospitals-1.6305159


----------



## daftandbarmy

Supervisors and spooks to hit the bricks to bolster the front line. 

Good luck flatfoot!

*COVID-19: Victoria Police invoke little-used power to ensure front-line services*

The Chief of the Victoria Police has invoked emergency powers under the collective agreement to ensure the capital has enough officers to patrol the streets. Forces and emergency crews across the province have not been spared the spread of the Omicron variant, as officers, firefighters, and ambulance attendants book off after COVID exposures or positive tests. Rumina Daya reports.









						COVID-19: Victoria Police invoke little-used power to ensure front-line services | Watch News Videos Online
					

Watch COVID-19: Victoria Police invoke little-used power to ensure front-line services Video Online, on GlobalNews.ca




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Czech_pivo

Quirky said:


> How many more reasons do you need to avoid living in Ontario and Quebec?
> 
> Hard to miss the real problem of this pandemic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Number of COVID-19 hospitalizations by vaccination status Canada 2021 | Statista
> 
> 
> Since the start of the vaccination program in Canada in December 2020, around 55,668 unvaccinated Canadians have been hospitalized with a COVID-19 infection, compared to 23,297 fully vaccinated Canadians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.statista.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not the only one:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-unvaccinated-canadians-covid-hospitals-1.6305159


Interesting piece of news buried at the bottom of the first link - US to pay for the re-building of 530+km of the Alaskan Highway which runs through the Yukon under some 1977 agreement.  LOL, yet another case of us cheap SOB Canadians relying on the Americans to maintain our country.  I find that a bit disgraceful.....and yes I'm aware that it was the US the originally built the highway during WW2 but that was 80yrs ago, time for us to man up (or person up) and start doing it ourselves.


----------



## kev994

Czech_pivo said:


> Interesting piece of news buried at the bottom of the first link - US to pay for the re-building of 530+km of the Alaskan Highway which runs through the Yukon under some 1977 agreement.  LOL, yet another case of us cheap SOB Canadians relying on the Americans to maintain our country.  I find that a bit disgraceful.....and yes I'm aware that it was the US the originally built the highway during WW2 but that was 80yrs ago, time for us to man up (or person up) and start doing it ourselves.


It sounds like the entire purpose of the road is to get to Alaska, ‘merica also built it, so it seems reasonable.


----------



## Czech_pivo

kev994 said:


> It sounds like the entire purpose of the road is to get to Alaska, ‘merica also built it, so it seems reasonable.


So Canadians just get to ride on it for free? The fact that it links Whitehorse (the capital) with the rest of the country doesn't come into play?  What about hwy#2 that runs north of Whitehorse and into the Alaska, should we just ask the US to pay for the maintaining of that hwy as well since it runs into Alaska?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Czech_pivo said:


> Interesting piece of news buried at the bottom of the first link - US to pay for the re-building of 530+km of the Alaskan Highway which runs through the Yukon under some 1977 agreement.  LOL, yet another case of us cheap SOB Canadians relying on the Americans to maintain our country.  I find that a bit disgraceful.....and yes I'm aware that it was the US the originally built the highway during WW2 but that was 80yrs ago, time for us to man up (or person up) and start doing it ourselves.



We're spending a bunch of cash on that highway too... viz:


Alaska Highway​
The Alaska Highway is the principal land access route to northern British Columbia, the Yukon and Alaska. As such, the highway is critical to the social networks and economies of the entire region. The Government of Canada managed section of the highway consists of many components, including the roadway itself, 56 bridges/bridge culverts, many small culverts, 10 maintenance yards and salt shed structures and numerous pits and quarries.

Find out about our projects, and what is being done to maintain and improve the highway.






						Alaska Highway – Federal property construction and maintenance projects – Federal properties and buildings – About government – Canada.ca
					

The Alaska Highway is the principal land access route to northern British Columbia, the Yukon and Alaska.




					www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

About the Omicron so far:









						Calling Omicron 'mild' a mistake, warns WHO
					

The Omicron variant of Covid-19 is killing people across the globe and should not be dismissed as mild, the World Health Organization insisted Thursday.




					news.yahoo.com
				





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478967166020259843


----------



## OceanBonfire

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like a group of Quebec party goers, "influencers", finally made it home from Mexico. 3 airlines refused to fly them back to Canada after they video taped themselves on the flight down partying on the plan. Apparently rocking open bottles of alcohol, E cigarettes and someone even mentioned doing drugs, no masks or attempts at distancing naturally. If they end up getting slapped with $5000 fines that's sure going to give them something to blog about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers arrive in Montreal following plane party controversy involving Quebec influencers
> 
> 
> Multiple Canadian airlines say they will refuse to board a group of Quebec social media influencers and reality TV stars on their way back from Cancun who were seen partying maskless, vaping, and drinking in the aisles during their departure flight last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca



LOL, those who came back will be watched by the provincial police to make sure they follow their quarantine (French article):









						Party dans un avion de Sunwing | Les influenceurs surveillés par la SQ
					

La Sûreté du Québec (SQ) compte s’assurer que les influenceurs de retour au Canada fassent bel et bien leur quarantaine.




					www.lapresse.ca


----------



## Blackadder1916

Czech_pivo said:


> . . . US to pay for the re-building of 530+km of the Alaskan Highway which runs through the Yukon *under some 1977 agreement*.  . . .



Perhaps you'd like to read "some 1977 agreement".   With over 80% of the traffic on the Shakwak HIghway (that portion of the Alaska HIghway connecting the Panhandle to the rest of the state) being American, most of the wear and tear is not generated by free-loading Canadians.  Back before that 1977 agreement it was the complaints of Alaskans (_not coincidentally the Alaskan pipeline was built 75-77_) that got the US Government to kick in the money.

Or as US law put it . . .



			U.S.C. Title 23 - HIGHWAYS
		

§218. Alaska Highway
(a) Recognizing the benefits that will accrue to the State of Alaska and to the United States from the reconstruction of the Alaska Highway from the Alaskan border to Haines Junction in Canada and the Haines Cutoff Highway from Haines Junction in Canada to Haines, the Secretary is authorized out of the funds appropriated for the purpose of this section to provide for necessary reconstruction of such highway.  . . .

Pub. L. 94–280, title I, §151, May 5, 1976, 90 Stat. 448, provided that:

“(a) The Secretary of Transportation is authorized to undertake an investigation and study to determine the cost of, and the responsibility for, *repairing the damage to Alaska highways that has been or will be caused by heavy truck traffic during construction of the trans-Alaska pipeline* and to restore them to proper standards when construction is complete. The Secretary of Transportation shall report his initial findings to the Congress on or before September 30, 1976, and his final conclusions on rebuilding costs no later than three months after completion of pipeline construction.


----------



## Blackadder1916

And in the wealthy, privileged sports category . . .



			https://www.cbc.ca/sports/tennis/novak-djokovic-australian-open-detention-deportation-1.630706
		



> Novak Djokovic languishes in detention hotel, fighting deportation over COVID-19 vaccination status​
> Regardless of who made an error on the visa or the vaccination waiver or whatever, the reality on Friday for tennis's top-ranked men's player, Novak Djokovic, was spending one of his important religious holidays in an Australian detention hotel working on his challenge against deportation
> 
> . . .


----------



## PuckChaser

Mainstream media platforming dangerous misinformation... oh wait, this is an Infectious Disease Specialist from a major children's hospital:

Fulford: Time to find new balance with COVID-19


----------



## Czech_pivo

Blackadder1916 said:


> Perhaps you'd like to read "some 1977 agreement".   With over 80% of the traffic on the Shakwak HIghway (that portion of the Alaska HIghway connecting the Panhandle to the rest of the state) being American, most of the wear and tear is not generated by free-loading Canadians.  Back before that 1977 agreement it was the complaints of Alaskans (_not coincidentally the Alaskan pipeline was built 75-77_) that got the US Government to kick in the money.
> 
> Or as US law put it . . .
> 
> 
> 
> U.S.C. Title 23 - HIGHWAYS
> 
> 
> §218. Alaska Highway
> (a) Recognizing the benefits that will accrue to the State of Alaska and to the United States from the reconstruction of the Alaska Highway from the Alaskan border to Haines Junction in Canada and the Haines Cutoff Highway from Haines Junction in Canada to Haines, the Secretary is authorized out of the funds appropriated for the purpose of this section to provide for necessary reconstruction of such highway.  . . .
> 
> Pub. L. 94–280, title I, §151, May 5, 1976, 90 Stat. 448, provided that:
> 
> “(a) The Secretary of Transportation is authorized to undertake an investigation and study to determine the cost of, and the responsibility for, *repairing the damage to Alaska highways that has been or will be caused by heavy truck traffic during construction of the trans-Alaska pipeline* and to restore them to proper standards when construction is complete. The Secretary of Transportation shall report his initial findings to the Congress on or before September 30, 1976, and his final conclusions on rebuilding costs no later than three months after completion of pipeline construction.


40yrs ago and the expectation is that they should continue to pay for it? 
If the majority of the traffic is American, then make that section a Toll Rd, charging those who use it the most to pay for it.


----------



## Mick

PuckChaser said:


> Mainstream media platforming dangerous misinformation... oh wait, this is an Infectious Disease Specialist from a major children's hospital:
> 
> Fulford: Time to find new balance with COVID-19


Here's an older link, but same general idea.



			https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5933902
		


I do agree, a new balance must be struck in order to return to a degree of normalcy, while preserving the healthcare system.


----------



## brihard

Czech_pivo said:


> So Canadians just get to ride on it for free? The fact that it links Whitehorse (the capital) with the rest of the country doesn't come into play?  What about hwy#2 that runs north of Whitehorse and into the Alaska, should we just ask the US to pay for the maintaining of that hwy as well since it runs into Alaska?


I lived up there. Lots of US traffic on the Alaska highway, for obvious reasons. The US helps fund maintenance well beyond what Canada would independently be able to spend, or justify much interest in. It’s very important infrastructure for the Americans, so there’s nothing wrong or ‘embarrassing’ with them helping maintain it in the modern era.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Czech_pivo said:


> 40yrs ago and the expectation is that they should continue to pay for it?
> If the majority of the traffic is American, *then make that section a Toll Rd*, charging those who use it the most to pay for it.



Except that Article II of the Annex to the Agreement includes

Canada will:

2.  not impose any highway toll, or permit any such toll to be charged for the use of such highways by vehicles or persons,
3.  not levy or assess, directly or indirectly, any fee, tax or other charge for the use of such highways by vehicles or persons from the United States that does not apply equally to vehicles or persons of Canada,


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:


> She told me the same.  Some of the stories were absolutely wild.  Insane pool parties, reality tvesque drama, love quadrangles 🤣


I actively avoid Sun wing


----------



## OldSolduer

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They should have flown on their planes instead, l bet Tiger would have had a great time!


Tiger should be in jail.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> The Chief of the Victoria Police has invoked emergency powers under the collective agreement to ensure the capital has enough officers to patrol the streets. Forces and emergency crews across the province have not been spared the spread of the Omicron variant, as officers, firefighters, and ambulance attendants book off after COVID exposures or positive tests.



Collective agreements may vary by municipality. This was, and is, ours. YMMV


Quarantine
45.17 (a) Time lost by a Paramedic as a result of being quarantined by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation because of a job-related incident shall be treated as a leave of absence with pay for the duration of the quarantine.

Working Quarantine
45.17(b) (i) All Paramedics who are under quarantine will be paid their regular rate of pay for their regularly scheduled shifts.
(ii) In addition to the compensation provided for in paragraph (i), all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid a quarantine compensation premium of their regular hourly rate of pay for all hours worked.

Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (ii) means all Local 416 Paramedics shall receive their regular hourly rate under paragraph (i) and a second regular hourly rate under paragraph (ii), or double time, while performing their work under the ‘Work Quarantine’, for their regularly scheduled hours only.
(iii) In addition to the quarantine compensation premium provided for in paragraph (ii) above, all Paramedics who work while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid at the rate of time and one-half (1½) the regular rate of pay for the overtime hours worked beyond
their regularly scheduled shift. (e.g., after 12 hours)

Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iii) means that all Local 416 Paramedics that are engaged in end-of-shift overtime while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ will receive their regular hourly rate referred to in paragraph (ii), plus time and one-half (1 ½) the regular hourly rate. Thereby equalling two and one-half (2 ½) times their regular hourly rate for all end of shift overtime hours worked.
(iv) All Paramedics who work on a scheduled day off, while under a ‘Work Quarantine’ will be paid time and one half (1 ½ ) the regular rate of pay, plus an additional quarantine compensation premium of one-half (½) the regular rate of pay, for all hours worked.

Clarity Note: The net effect of the above paragraph (iv) means all Local 416 Paramedics working on their days off while under the ‘Work Quarantine’ shall be paid double time for all hours worked.
(v) Once the employee agrees to work under a ‘Work Quarantine’ he/she will be expected to report for their regularly scheduled shifts for the period the quarantine is in effect. An employee who chooses to be on ‘Home Quarantine’ and later chooses to work
under ‘Work Quarantine’ must notify the Scheduling Unit eight hours prior to the commencement of their next scheduled shift.
(vi) These terms represent exceptional and unusual circumstances and only apply when a ‘Work Quarantine’ has been declared by any official authorized to do so in accordance with the applicable legislation.
(vii)Local 416 Paramedics that work or choose to work under the provisions
of clause 45.17(b) shall continue to receive all their normal Collective Agreement entitlements in addition to the quarantine premium pay referred to herein, which would include but is not limited to, shift premiums. It is understood that this provision is
not intended to provide Paramedics with any further overtime entitlement than is already provided for in paragraphs (iii) and (iv).


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> I actively avoid Sun wing



Someone hates fun.

Mandatory vaccinations, in whatever form they decide, is being looked at. While it likely won't mean forced jabs into arms, access to healthcare could be on the table. Alberta and Sask already said no, but I can see the larger populated provinces like Quebec and Ontario implementing it. My money is on Quebec being first, they have by far the most draconian restrictions than anyone else.









						Provinces should consider mandating COVID-19 vaccines, federal health minister says
					

With health-care capacity stretched 'too thin' in the face of an unrelenting wave of COVID-19 infections, Canada's health minister says provinces and territories should be considering mandating vaccinations. 'What we see now is that our health care system in Canada is fragile, our people are...




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




EDIT: I see that's already been posted in the other Covid thread. 



> PuckChaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mainstream media platforming dangerous misinformation... oh wait, this is an Infectious Disease Specialist from a major children's hospital:
> 
> Fulford: Time to find new balance with COVID-19
Click to expand...


Messages and opinions like this will largely be ignored by politicians.


----------



## Mick

At least some experts are starting to publicly suggest moving away from restrictions:

"But whether it's a combination of vaccine or infection, you know, we have to at some point be able to say we need to have a much more normal life and live with COVID," he told _The House_, "and try to find find a more balanced approach between limiting the impacts of COVID, focusing on the severe side of the illness — those who are most vulnerable — but not having all the restrictions that we have in place right now." -Robert Strang, NS CMOH

Full article here:


			https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/covid-pandemic-vaccine-omicron-1.6307272


----------



## Quirky

Mick said:


> At least some experts are starting to publicly suggest moving away from restrictions:
> 
> "But whether it's a combination of vaccine or infection, you know, we have to at some point be able to say we need to have a much more normal life and live with COVID," he told _The House_, "and try to find find a more balanced approach between limiting the impacts of COVID, focusing on the severe side of the illness — those who are most vulnerable — but not having all the restrictions that we have in place right now." -Robert Strang, NS CMOH
> 
> Full article here:
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thehouse/covid-pandemic-vaccine-omicron-1.6307272



#leterrip. Enough of these hockey game cancellations in Canada while sporting venues in the US are full. Capacity limits are idiotic, no one is social distancing anymore or wearing masks inside arenas or stadiums. Coaches wearing masks on the bench then pulling them down to yell at players or refs is just sad at this point.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Quirky said:


> Mandatory vaccinations, in whatever form they decide, is being looked at. While it likely won't mean forced jabs into arms, access to healthcare could be on the table.


Exactly the direction I suggested things would go.

No one is going to pin you down and force you to get a needle but they can sure make living without a vaccination terrible and severely restrict anything you do.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> Someone hates fun.
> 
> Mandatory vaccinations, in whatever form they decide, is being looked at. While it likely won't mean forced jabs into arms,* access to healthcare could be on the table*. Alberta and Sask already said no, but I can see the larger populated provinces like Quebec and Ontario implementing it. My money is on Quebec being first, they have by far the most draconian restrictions than anyone else.


I have a hard time seeing it come to that, but who knows.  Such a move carries a lot of moral and ethical issues and places emergency and health care workers as the arbiters of public policy. If two unvaccinated people show up at emerg - one having trouble breathing and the other with an axe sticking out of their head - neither get treated?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

lenaitch said:


> I have a hard time seeing it come to that, but who knows.  Such a move carries a lot of moral and ethical issues and places emergency and health care workers as the arbiters of public policy. If two unvaccinated people show up at emerg - one having trouble breathing and the other with an axe sticking out of their head - neither get treated?


Maybe both get treated (to avoid any moral and ethical dilemma), but both get a bill for cost, instead of the Province picking up the tab?

Not advocating for that approach- just doing a thought experiment.


----------



## MilEME09

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe both get treated (to avoid any moral and ethical dilemma), but both get a bill for cost, instead of the Province picking up the tab?
> 
> Not advocating for that approach- just doing a thought experiment.


Would be challenged in court, but you could have them pay for non life threatening treatments,


----------



## kev994

FDA Warns Against Throat Swabs

I can’t believe they need to announce that you should follow the directions on the box instead of a hashtag on twitter. #morons


----------



## PMedMoe

kev994 said:


> FDA Warns Against Throat Swabs
> 
> I can’t believe they need to announce that you should follow the directions on the box instead of a hashtag on twitter. #morons



Oh c'mon!  People are taking animal strength dewormer!!


----------



## MilEME09

kev994 said:


> FDA Warns Against Throat Swabs
> 
> I can’t believe they need to announce that you should follow the directions on the box instead of a hashtag on twitter. #morons


You realize car batteries say do not eat on them right? Common sense isn't common


----------



## Remius

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe both get treated (to avoid any moral and ethical dilemma), but both get a bill for cost, instead of the Province picking up the tab?
> 
> Not advocating for that approach- just doing a thought experiment.


I think that their is recent polling that actually supports billing the unvaccinated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

MilEME09 said:


> You realize car batteries say do not eat on them right? Common sense isn't common


Some people are really stupid but we're also in a litigation obsessed society and people actively look for reasons to sue for money.


----------



## Blackadder1916

lenaitch said:


> . . .  If two unvaccinated people show up at emerg - one having trouble breathing and the other with an axe sticking out of their head - neither get treated?



Both would get treated, but the availability of critical care may depend on inclusion/exclusion criteria.  As an example, using the existing Saskatchewan guidelines, if the ICU capacity had reached Stage 4 (>200% of baseline ICU capacity)



Conceivably the patient with difficulty breathing may meet the inclusion criteria, whereas an axe sticking out of someone's skull is often a sign of "severe neurologic injury", one of the exclusion criteria.  In such a case the priority for ICU would likely go to the difficulty breathing.

While hypothetical scenarios make for an interesting game, it is highly unlikely (and I dare to say would never happen) that medical care would be withheld solely because the patient was unvaccinated.  The vaccination status of a patient "may" (_and that is a very, very remote "may"_) be used as a "tiebreaker" for priority if it contributed to determining the physiologic status of the patient.


----------



## Kilted

Quirky said:


> #leterrip. Enough of these hockey game cancellations in Canada while sporting venues in the US are full. Capacity limits are idiotic, no one is social distancing anymore or wearing masks inside arenas or stadiums. Coaches wearing masks on the bench then pulling them down to yell at players or refs is just sad at this point.


That's exactly why there are capacity limits.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remove their health care because they refuse to get vaccinated? How tolerant and 21 century we are. Even after they have already paid into that pot. Sounds like a perfect excuse to take that money and buy private health policies along with being able to have operations a week after diagnosis instead of two or three years down the road, maybe. Ah, but what the hell. This government has been stealing taxes and giving them out around the world to everyone and everything except Canadians. Nobody in this country get there money's worth anyway. Not to worry, unvaxxed Canadians are racist misogynists who cannot be tolerated, unless you're from Quebec. Sounds ironic coming from our hypocrite blackface, Kokanee groper.


----------



## lenaitch

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe both get treated (to avoid any moral and ethical dilemma), but both get a bill for cost, instead of the Province picking up the tab?
> 
> Not advocating for that approach- just doing a thought experiment.


It would require an amendment/suspension of certain parts of the Ontario Health Insurance Act as well as the Canada Health Act (federal $$ is conditional on universality).  I don't know if these provisions could be suspended by emergency health orders.


MilEME09 said:


> Would be challenged in court, but you could have them pay for non life threatening treatments,


I would hope all treatments are non-life threatening.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

lenaitch said:


> It would require an amendment/suspension of certain parts of the Ontario Health Insurance Act as well as the Canada Health Act (federal $$ is conditional on universality).  I don't know if these provisions could be suspended by emergency health orders.
> 
> I would hope all treatments are non-life threatening.


Again, hypothetically (and I am not advocating that we go down this road), I expect that the Canada Health Act universality provisions could be suspended a whole lot easier than you could find health care workers to forcibly stick a needle in an arm against the will of the person attached to the arm.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Community order.  Get your mandated vaccine or go to jail.


----------



## Kilted

SeaKingTacco said:


> Again, hypothetically (and I am not advocating that we go down this road), I expect that the Canada Health Act universality provisions could be suspended a whole lot easier than you could find health care workers to forcibly stick a needle in an arm against the will of the person attached to the arm.


They are letting fire fighters give the shots now, you dont need to be a health care professional to give the vaccine.


----------



## Remius

An article before Christmas.









						Diane Francis: Make the unvaccinated pay for their own health care
					

Public health measures should not be confused with freedom of choice or rights




					financialpost.com
				




I didn’t know Singapore was going that route.  Better than Austria fining their people every month until they vaccinate.


----------



## Altair

I like how when I said all of this I was nuts but the PM hints at it and its suddenly okay.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I think that their is recent polling that actually supports billing the unvaccinated.



Heh, yeah, all decisions should be made by 50%+1 majority.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Heh, yeah, all decisions should be made by 50%+1 majority.


Not at all.  But don’t think for a second that political parties are not looking at polling data on this sort of thing.


----------



## Remius

‘


Altair said:


> I like how when I said all of this I was nuts but the PM hints at it and its suddenly okay.


You need to back read.  People called you on wanting to deny healthcare to the unvaccinated and nobody said it was ok.


----------



## lenaitch

Kilted said:


> They are letting fire fighters give the shots now, you dont need to be a health care professional to give the vaccine.


Cool.  They're trained as crews.  Five to hold the person down and one to jab.  Only kidding.  You're right.  You don't need to be a health professional to administer an IM jab; just basic sanitation protocols and how to properly draw a dosage.  I read an article about retired nurses willing to step in but the College isn't willing to re-certify them.


----------



## kev994

lenaitch said:


> You don't need to be a health professional to administer an IM jab; just basic sanitation protocols and how to properly draw a dosage.


sounds like something a DLN course could cover off, but only if it’s mandatory. 😁


----------



## mariomike

Kilted said:


> They are letting fire fighters give the shots now, you dont need to be a health care professional to give the vaccine.



Depends on the municipality.

City of Toronto
News Release:









						City of Toronto readying Paramedic and Fire Services to support mobile vaccination of vulnerable communities
					

News Release April 21, 2021 The City of Toronto, in collaboration with Ontario Health Team partners and under the leadership of the Sunnybrook Centre for Prehospital Medicine and Toronto Public Health, is significantly expanding mobile vaccine team capabilities by staffing new mobile clinic...




					www.toronto.ca
				






> Starting next week, teams of Toronto Paramedics and Firefighters will be deployed with partner physicians and healthcare professionals to locations across Toronto to operate mobile COVID-19 clinics. The teams will leverage the clinical expertise of Paramedics and healthcare professionals, who will serve as vaccine loaders and immunizers, while Firefighters manage logistics, client screening, registration and after-care support.



For sure, those paramedics would not be from Operations. They would be from the Modified Duty pool.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> Heh, yeah, all decisions should be made by 50%+1 majority.



Although better than an arrogant 32.6% minority running de facto unchecked.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> ‘
> 
> You need to back read.  People called you on wanting to deny healthcare to the unvaccinated and nobody said it was ok.


Charging the unvaccinated is but one step removed from denying them healthcare outright, but whatever.

Seems Canada is coming around to my idea, so I'll just patiently wait.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Charging the unvaccinated is but one step removed from denying them healthcare outright, but whatever.
> 
> Seems Canada is coming around to my idea, so I'll just patiently wait.


It’s not.  You were willing to deny ALL health care to the unvaccinated.  What is being done elsewhere and proposed is to charge COVID patients the cost of COVID related care not all health care that you were proposing.

Canada is not coming around to your idea at all.  But I like how you are shaping it that way to fit your narrative to always be absolutely right, and then endlessly remind everyone how right you are when the whole time you use smoke and mirrors and change your point of view how it suits you.


----------



## brihard

Rocco Galati, one of the most prominent lawyers in the Canadian Antivax movement, is now in ICU in Ontario, with accounts of being intubated in a medically induced coma. Cause is not specifically stated, obviously COVID has been spoken of. It’s unclear how that will impact some of the lawsuits he’s working on or expected to file, such as the “police on guard for thee” action.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> It’s not.  You were willing to deny ALL health care to the unvaccinated.  What is being done elsewhere and proposed is to charge COVID patients the cost of COVID related care not all health care that you were proposing.


Nope, I was willing to deny unvaccinated covid patients treatments for covid.

And charging them is but one step removed from denying.


Remius said:


> Canada is not coming around to your idea at all.  But I like how you are shaping it that way to fit your narrative to always be absolutely right, and then endlessly remind everyone how right you are when the whole time you use smoke and mirrors and change your point of view how it suits you.


Oh, but Canada is.

Patience is required as people run out of patience.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> You were willing to deny ALL health care to the unvaccinated. What is being done elsewhere and proposed is to charge COVID patients the cost of COVID related care not all health care that you were proposing.



That's also an interesting proposition, who makes the call that your healthcare is related to COVID? If an obese individual, who is covid positive, comes to the ER with chest pain and trouble breathing, how do you determine that it's because of covid and not their obesity? What about smokers?

One solution to healthcare is to charge, not deny, people who don't meet physical standards. Maybe national physical fitness tests in some sort of regular frequency can determine your eligibility for continuation of social free healthcare. Offer everyone free access to government run gyms and other fitness centers. If the military is any indication of what will happen, where troops are consistently getting fatter and less active, there won't be too many Canadians who meet the standards of free healthcare and the problem solves itself. Canada has no consequences for poor personal choices when it comes to health, free care for the lazy and unmotivated! Sugar and cigarette taxes don't solve anything.


----------



## Halifax Tar

God what are we becoming.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"We" are not.  Above really only applies for very, very small values of "we".


----------



## ModlrMike

Quirky said:


> That's also an interesting proposition, who makes the call that your healthcare is related to COVID? If an obese individual, who is covid positive, comes to the ER with chest pain and trouble breathing, how do you determine that it's because of covid and not their obesity? What about smokers?


Because I understand biology and how the disease works at the cellular level.


----------



## Good2Golf

ModlrMike said:


> Because I understand biology and how the disease works at the cellular level.


Sure, you may have educational and training certifications and qualifications specifically in medicine, but what Internet-based qualifications do you have?


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> "We" are not.  Above really only applies for very, very small values of "we".


Indeed. Quirky and Altair no more speak for the population at large than the antivaxers do. There are fringes at both ends of the spectrum on this issue. Amusingly, the extremes on both sides seem to suck equally but differently at understanding the law.


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> Rocco Galati, one of the most prominent lawyers in the Canadian Antivax movement, is now in ICU in Ontario, with accounts of being intubated in a medically induced coma. Cause is not specifically stated, obviously COVID has been spoken of. It’s unclear how that will impact some of the lawsuits he’s working on or expected to file, such as the “police on guard for thee” action.


----------



## mariomike

Duplicate of post #7,158 below.  I made a technical error.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> That's also an interesting proposition, who makes the call that your healthcare is related to COVID?



…Doctors. Doctors make that call, Quirky. Probably specialists in Internal Disease. That’s sorta how the whole professional field of medicine works, and why we have doctors at all. Be sorta like me sitting grounded on the tarmac in seat 16F, asking “well _who decides_ there’s a fault in the jet engine?”


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> Charging the unvaccinated is but one step removed from denying them healthcare outright, but whatever.



Not while alive.

But,









						Unvaccinated? Don’t Count on Leaving Your Family Death Benefits
					

Some front-line workers who die of covid-19 have been considered eligible for accidental death benefits because it is presumed their infection was contracted on the job. But some employers now sugg…




					khn.org
				




My private insurance, Manulife, awards "Vitality Points" to vaccinated members.

*>Our members will receive 400 Vitality Points™ after receiving the COVID-19 vaccination.

Yes, I know. It's not a big deal. It's private, and, has no impact on universal health care.

( Sorry for the Bold. It's something my computer occasionally does when I copy / paste. )*


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Altair said:


> Nope, I was willing to deny unvaccinated covid patients treatments for covid.
> 
> And charging them is but one step removed from denying.
> 
> Oh, but Canada is.
> 
> Patience is required as people run out of patience.


Our divisive authoritarian PM and his Cabinet are the only ones in agreement with you. After all, those racist, misogynous anti vaxxers cannot be tolerated..........Unless your from Quebec. It's  the Canadian people who are running out of patience. With our ruling party.


----------



## Quirky

ModlrMike said:


> Because I understand biology and how the disease works at the cellular level.



I wasn't replying to you specifically but sure.

If doctors want to make that call of who to treat based on vaccination status and other triage requirements, fine by me. It's time to open up society, remove all restrictions and let nature take its course. Let those who understand biology and how disease works at cellular levels handle triage protocols to see who gets care. The key is not calling triage protocol a collapse of the hospitals. It’s either that or we continue to pay for the selfish actions of the unvaccinated.



Halifax Tar said:


> God what are we becoming.



Healthcare in this country isn't working. *Something* needs to change besides putting more money into it.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:


> Healthcare in this country isn't working. *Something* needs to change besides putting more money into it.



Ya I agree.  That's not my point though.  My point is about how divisive this is and how fast we are willing to cast aside our fellow countrymen.


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya I agree.  That's not my point though.  My point is about how divisive this is and how fast we are willing to cast aside our fellow countrymen.



When my taxes fund the survival of the selfish unvaccinated, not to mention the many other Canadians who disregard their personal well being because free healthcare, I have no problem casting them aside. My tolerance for those people at this point 2 years into this pandemic, non existent. I'll say it again, when it comes to healthcare in the country, there is no personal responsibility on the individual. The selfish actions of a few are causing a shit storm for everyone.

The only bright side of the pandemic is that people are finally looking into the problem of this system and how broken it is. Canadians are finally starting to see that their socialist system isn't all that great.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:


> When my taxes fund the survival of the selfish unvaccinated, not to mention the many other Canadians who disregard their personal well being because free healthcare, I have no problem casting them aside. My tolerance for those people at this point 2 years into this pandemic, non existent. I'll say it again, when it comes to healthcare in the country, there is no personal responsibility on the individual. The selfish actions of a few are causing a shit storm for everyone.



Youre taxes and everyone else including the unvaxx'd.


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> Youre taxes and everyone else including the unvaxx'd.



Their overuse of the system do not offset their share of taxes paid, but nice try. Maybe if I get healthcare refunds in my tax return for never seeing an ER room, that would be different.


Calls for harsher punishments on the unvaccinated are growing louder.









						Quebec physicians order asks for harsher measures against the unvaccinated - Montreal | Globalnews.ca
					

Several health equity experts say there is evidence some vulnerable groups who are not anti-vax have fallen through the cracks due to the systemic barriers they may face.




					globalnews.ca
				




“The vaccinated population can no longer suffer in silence from the constraints of sanitary measures while unvaccinated people (who now make up a very small proportion of Quebec’s population) occupy one in two beds in short-term care and the majority of beds in intensive care,” wrote the Collège des médecins du Québec president, Dr. Mauril Gaudreault, on Friday.

Another step closer to healthcare implications...


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:


> Their overuse of the system do not offset their share of taxes paid, but nice try. Maybe if I get healthcare refunds in my tax return for never seeing an ER room, that would be different.



Cool cool cool... Can we start doing that for everything we don't personally agree with ?  Because I absolutely hate hockey, so I don't want to fund anyone who comes in to a hospital with an injury from hockey.  Then are the addicts, fuck them; they made their choice.  Last are the elderly, they don't contribute anymore and just drain the the healthcare system to death.  Oh what about drunk drivers ?  Can I not pay for them either. 

I want to see a detail report on your life so I can see if I want my taxes going to support you in any way.  Lord help you if you don't eat your veggies, work out like Joe Rogan or dare to have a beer or puff, I aint supporting you! 

I like this plan!  Lets just do away with single payer altogether.  Get your own medical insurance.  Or trust your life with the wild.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Quirky said:


> When my taxes fund the survival of the selfish unvaccinated, not to mention the many other Canadians who disregard their personal well being because free healthcare, I have no problem casting them aside. My tolerance for those people at this point 2 years into this pandemic, non existent. I'll say it again, when it comes to healthcare in the country, there is no personal responsibility on the individual. The selfish actions of a few are causing a shit storm for everyone.
> 
> The only bright side of the pandemic is that people are finally looking into the problem of this system and how broken it is. Canadians are finally starting to see that their socialist system isn't all that great.


I look forward to the day that you're too old and feeble to live up to your own lofty physical standards and book passage on the first available ice floe out of town. Don't ever get hurt, it sucks having to listen to preachy assholes on the interwebs tell you you're unworthy.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Calls for harsher punishments on the unvaccinated are growing louder.



They fired 461 unvaxxed where I used to work. 

Fair or unfair, this is where they are in the U.S.,





__





						How to hold unvaccinated Americans accountable
					





					www.msn.com
				






> make them pay more for health insurance through surcharges and eliminating paid time off when they are sick while offering financial incentives (including lower deductibles) for fully vaccinated Americans who enroll in wellness programs.





> This fall, some employers began requiring unvaccinated workers to pay more for their health insurance. Delta Air Lines (which, on average, has been paying $50,000 for each COVID-19-related hospital stay) imposes a surcharge of $200 per month for its unvaccinated staff. Delta also limits salary protection for those who miss work to workers who have been vaccinated and have had "breakthrough" infections. Since these policies took effect on Nov. 1, 2021, it's worth noting, the vaccination rate among Delta employees has risen to 94 percent.





> Mercy Health, whose 7,000 employees work in hospitals and clinics in Wisconsin and Illinois, has introduced a "risk pool fee"; $60 per week is deducted from the wages of workers who have not been vaccinated. After the policy was announced in September, vaccination rates rose from 70 percent to 91 percent.





> As omicron rages, health care workers are exhausted, frustrated and disheartened. In a sentiment shared by many of her colleagues, Sarah Rauner, a chief nurse practitioner in Troy, Mich., declared, "So much of what we see on a daily basis is preventable." A few days before Christmas, Sue Wolfe, a nurse in Madison, Wis., wondered why unvaccinated people "did this, why are they doing this to me. ... This is my second 16-hour shift this week. Came in at 2 o'clock in the morning and it's now 7 at night. I got my 20-minute break. It gets hard. I am 61 years old and I am doing this." Wolfe pleads with the unvaccinated to get vaccinated: "Do it for the people that you care about, that perhaps are susceptible to getting really sick because of the virus that you're carrying."





> Last summer, an exasperated Gov. Kay Ivey (R) in Alabama told reporters, "Folks are supposed to have common sense. But it's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, the regular folks. It's the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down."





> Two-thirds of Americans now say they are angry at the unvaccinated.





> Two years into a pandemic that has claimed more than 800,000 lives, blaming and shaming are unlikely to persuade the vast majority of those remaining to take a safe and effective vaccine, for themselves, people they care about, or strangers they encounter in grocery stores or restaurants.





> But if the unvaccinated can't be reached through their hearts or minds, we can - and should - require them to pay at least some of the financial costs they are forcing the rest of us to bear.


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> Cool cool cool... Can we start doing that for everything we don't personally agree with ?  Because I absolutely hate hockey, so I don't want to fund anyone who comes in to a hospital with an injury from hockey.  Then are the addicts, fuck them; they made their choice.  Last are the elderly, they don't contribute anymore and just drain the the healthcare system to death.  Oh what about drunk drivers ?  Can I not pay for them either.
> 
> I want to see a detail report on your life so I can see if I want my taxes going to support you in any way.  Lord help you if you don't eat your veggies, work out like Joe Rogan or dare to have a beer or puff, I aint supporting you!
> 
> I like this plan!  Lets just do away with single payer altogether.  Get your own medical insurance.  Or trust your life with the wild.



Hockey players aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.
Addicts aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.
Elderly, who are vaccined, aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though.
Drunk drivers aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though.

None of those points above lead to restrictions, lockdowns and vaccine passports.

I eat my veggies and workout and don't care for Joe Rogan. I also drink in moderation but don't care for pot.  

I guess being a responsible adult, staying healthy, eating right, exercising and overall reducing any unnecessary use of social healthcare services is frowned upon in this country. No wonder we are so screwed. I do hold myself to a high standard of personal health and have no problem questioning those who don't, especially with our system. 

This is why fitness standards are non-existent in the CAF, lets make it easier to pass by lowering the standards and not holding those accountable for failing. Pretty much identical reflection of todays society, it's a joke. 



mariomike said:


> They fired 461 unvaxxed where I used to work.
> 
> Fair or unfair, this is where they are in the U.S.,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How to hold unvaccinated Americans accountable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.msn.com



Until this pandemic is over or Canadas healthcare system stabilizes, restricting movements on the unvaccinated seems to be the way forward, at least short term. If they didn't cause so much stress on healthcare, I wouldn't care what they did, however their choices punish everyone. That I do care.


----------



## dapaterson

MGen Fortin is back in court, appealing the earlier judgement.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dany-fortin-appeal-goes-forward-1.6309122


----------



## MilEME09

dapaterson said:


> MGen Fortin is back in court, appealing the earlier judgement.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dany-fortin-appeal-goes-forward-1.6309122


Probably not going far since the first judge said that by procedure he needed to use our internal grievance system first to try and settle it


----------



## kev994

He’s arguing that the grievance system isn’t the right venue because it’s too slow… open the floodgates!!!


----------



## kev994

Halifax Tar said:


> Cool cool cool... Can we start doing that for everything we don't personally agree with ?  Because I absolutely hate hockey, so I don't want to fund anyone who comes in to a hospital with an injury from hockey.  Then are the addicts, fuck them; they made their choice.  Last are the elderly, they don't contribute anymore and just drain the the healthcare system to death.  Oh what about drunk drivers ?  Can I not pay for them either.
> 
> I want to see a detail report on your life so I can see if I want my taxes going to support you in any way.  Lord help you if you don't eat your veggies, work out like Joe Rogan or dare to have a beer or puff, I aint supporting you!
> 
> I like this plan!  Lets just do away with single payer altogether.  Get your own medical insurance.  Or trust your life with the wild.


These guys who Attempted to Jetski the Northwest Passage and plan to try again should need to pay for the SAR mission while we’re at it.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Quirky said:


> Hockey players aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.  Its strain on the HCS from an unnecessary personal choice.





Quirky said:


> Addicts aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.  We actually do have a major drug problem in this country and its really straining our HCS.





Quirky said:


> Elderly, who are vaccined, aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though.  Its strain on the HCS with little to gain from.





Quirky said:


> Drunk drivers aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though. Its strain on the HCS from an unnecessary personal choice


So is it just ICU beds or the HCS as whole ?  Your goal posts seem some what mobile. 


Quirky said:


> None of those points above lead to restrictions, lockdowns and vaccine passports.  Fair. But they still put unnecessary strain on the HCS.
> 
> I eat my veggies and workout and don't care for Joe Rogan. I also drink in moderation but don't care for pot.  You drink ? I don't want my taxes to help you you're making an unhealthy personal choice.





Quirky said:


> I guess being a responsible adult, staying healthy, eating right, exercising and overall reducing any unnecessary use of social healthcare services is frowned upon in this country. No wonder we are so screwed. I do hold myself to a high standard of personal health and have no problem questioning those who don't, especially with our system.  But you're contradicting yourself you admit to drinking.  Ever had a dart ?
> 
> This is why fitness standards are non-existent in the CAF, lets make it easier to pass by lowering the standards and not holding those accountable for failing. Pretty much identical reflection of todays society, it's a joke.  Ok, we have a thread for this.  I think you know who will be along soon with a link.



You're all to willing to throw the unvaxxed under the bus.  Wait for it.  It never stops where people think it will.


----------



## mariomike

Halifax Tar said:


> You're all to willing to throw the unvaxxed under the bus.



Oh the drama. 



brihard said:


> No, you have the full ability to consent to the vaccine or not. There will simply be employment consequences if you don’t. You’re free to seek other work elsewhere.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Nope, I was willing to deny unvaccinated covid patients treatments for covid.
> 
> And charging them is but one step removed from denying.
> 
> Oh, but Canada is.
> 
> Patience is required as people run out of patience.


As long as treatment is not denied I don’t care.

They’ll get treated and get the bill.  

The moment they deny is the moment this country goes down a darker path.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> Hockey players aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.
> Addicts aren't clogging ICUs. Nice try though.
> Elderly, who are vaccined, aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though.
> Drunk drivers aren't clogging ICU's. Nice try though.
> 
> None of those points above lead to restrictions, lockdowns and vaccine passports.
> 
> I eat my veggies and workout and don't care for Joe Rogan. I also drink in moderation but don't care for pot.
> 
> I guess being a responsible adult, staying healthy, eating right, exercising and overall reducing any unnecessary use of social healthcare services is frowned upon in this country. No wonder we are so screwed. I do hold myself to a high standard of personal health and have no problem questioning those who don't, especially with our system.
> 
> This is why fitness standards are non-existent in the CAF, lets make it easier to pass by lowering the standards and not holding those accountable for failing. Pretty much identical reflection of todays society, it's a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> Until this pandemic is over or Canadas healthcare system stabilizes, restricting movements on the unvaccinated seems to be the way forward, at least short term. If they didn't cause so much stress on healthcare, I wouldn't care what they did, however their choices punish everyone. That I do care.



But your earlier post was much broader:

_"When my taxes fund the survival of the selfish unvaccinated, *not to mention the many other Canadians who disregard their personal well being because free healthcare, I have no problem casting them aside.* My tolerance for those people at this point 2 years into this pandemic, non existent. I'll say it again, when it comes to healthcare in the country, there is no personal responsibility on the individual. The selfish actions of a few are causing a shit storm for everyone."_

People make bad choices, people make seemingly reasonable choices that turn out bad, people have bad choices made for them.

Maybe there is some kind of hybrid system out there that works better, but if the answer is a free market system where healthcare depends on how rich you are, how poor you are, or on the whims of your employer, I'll pass, thanks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Not while alive.
> 
> But,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unvaccinated? Don’t Count on Leaving Your Family Death Benefits
> 
> 
> Some front-line workers who die of covid-19 have been considered eligible for accidental death benefits because it is presumed their infection was contracted on the job. But some employers now sugg…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> khn.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My private insurance, Manulife, awards "Vitality Points" to vaccinated members.
> 
> *>Our members will receive 400 Vitality Points™ after receiving the COVID-19 vaccination.
> 
> Yes, I know. It's not a big deal. It's private, and, has no impact on universal health care.
> 
> ( Sorry for the Bold. It's something my computer occasionally does when I copy / paste. )*


I have to ask, if you don't  mind. What is a 'vitality point' and what are the benefits? Lower rates on your medical benefit premium, or something like that?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Let's  quit worrying about vaccinations, mandates and lockdowns. Let's quit worrying about dick pullers that want to march Canadians off a cliff for affording themselves protection under the Charter of Rights. How many more mutations? How many more shots? Three, five, twenty five? One for every new variant?
Look, this is a covid strain. Something we've  already lived with forever. And guess what? Just like the rest, Covid 19 is here to stay. We're  not going to kill it, stop it mutating or anything else or vaccinate our way out of it. I suspect within another two years, very near everyone on the planet will have been exposed. We have one option. Shut all this shit down, open everything up and get back to where we were 3 years ago. We need to take off our skirts, grow a mustache and harden the fuck up. We have to learn to live with this, like the cold and the flu. We can't hide forever or keep on the way we are. There will be no small business left. We're setting our children up for lifetimes of mental ilness and low education. We have politicians taking just a little more power from us every variant. The more power the government takes, the harder it is to take back. Many say the Charter has already been put through the shredder. Point being, we can't  keep doing this. Nothing has worked even after trying it 5 or six times. This has been about controlling people, not saving humanity.

Get back to normal and learn to live with it. It's here to stay, no matter what we do to it or ourselves.


----------



## Altair

Fishbone Jones said:


> Let's  quit worrying about vaccinations, mandates and lockdowns. Let's quit worrying about dick pullers that want to march Canadians off a cliff for affording themselves protection under the Charter of Rights. How many more mutations? How many more shots? Three, five, twenty five? One for every new variant?
> Look, this is a covid strain. Something we've  already lived with forever. And guess what? Just like the rest, Covid 19 is here to stay. We're  not going to kill it, stop it mutating or anything else or vaccinate our way out of it. I suspect within another two years, very near everyone on the planet will have been exposed. We have one option. Shut all this shit down, open everything up and get back to where we were 3 years ago. We need to take off our skirts, grow a mustache and harden the fuck up. We have to learn to live with this, like the cold and the flu. We can't hide forever or keep on the way we are. There will be no small business left. We're setting our children up for lifetimes of mental ilness and low education. We have politicians taking just a little more power from us every variant. The more power the government takes, the harder it is to take back. Many say the Charter has already been put through the shredder. Point being, we can't  keep doing this. Nothing has worked even after trying it 5 or six times. This has been about controlling people, not saving humanity.
> 
> Get back to normal and learn to live with it. It's here to stay, no matter what we do to it or ourselves.


We are agreeing for polar opposite reasons, and that's okay.

Open it all up.


----------



## Gunplumber

I think that unvaccinated people should have to pay for their healthcare.  There should be hospitals open for them but not all of them.  They are getting more privileges' than the rest of us and it has to stop. I have a friend who has cancer and now he has to go to Toronto from Ottawa to get Chemo as he cant get it up here as the hospital is filled with Covid patients, most who are unvaccinated. Is he paid extra to make up for the time and gas needed to go there? No. These anti-vaxers have made their choice and they should be limited on what they are allowed to do and where to go. We have all heard stories of surgeries canceled and not being able to go see their doctors, maybe they should get a refund on the taxes they have paid for health care? 
If it was fair and all people were being equally treated, then I would be fine with unvaccinated not being charged for medical treatment but it seems like they are at the head of the line and everyone else has to wait. It is wrong.

The surge of vacinations now, when they know they wont be able to keep their jobs or go get their pot or booze just shows how selfish they are and that they dont give a frack that the rest of us are in lockdown because of them.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> Let's  quit worrying about vaccinations, mandates and lockdowns. Let's quit worrying about dick pullers that want to march Canadians off a cliff for affording themselves protection under the Charter of Rights. How many more mutations? How many more shots? Three, five, twenty five? One for every new variant?
> Look, this is a covid strain. Something we've  already lived with forever. And guess what? Just like the rest, Covid 19 is here to stay. We're  not going to kill it, stop it mutating or anything else or vaccinate our way out of it. I suspect within another two years, very near everyone on the planet will have been exposed. We have one option. Shut all this shit down, open everything up and get back to where we were 3 years ago. We need to take off our skirts, grow a mustache and harden the fuck up. We have to learn to live with this, like the cold and the flu. We can't hide forever or keep on the way we are. There will be no small business left. We're setting our children up for lifetimes of mental ilness and low education. We have politicians taking just a little more power from us every variant. The more power the government takes, the harder it is to take back. Many say the Charter has already been put through the shredder. Point being, we can't  keep doing this. Nothing has worked even after trying it 5 or six times. This has been about controlling people, not saving humanity.
> 
> Get back to normal and learn to live with it. It's here to stay, no matter what we do to it or ourselves.


First of all your low opinion of the human race is laughable.   Yea,  having to do take out instead of indoor dining is the reason we all put a gun to our own heads and end it all.   

Second, and I've asked before but no one has ever answered,  please tell me what new powers the Govt has now that it didn't have two years ago??     Just one.....please?

One question, have you gone back to work in one of those small businesses you're worried about, or are you  like me, fortunate enough to be retired, hiding in the mancave, and just throwing cheap shots from the safe zone??


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> First of all your low opinion of the human race is laughable.   Yea,  having to do take out instead of indoor dining is the reason we all put a gun to our own heads and end it all.
> 
> Second, and I've asked before but no one has ever answered,  please tell me what new powers the Govt has now that it didn't have two years ago??     Just one.....please?
> 
> One question, have you gone back to work in one of those small businesses you're worried about, or are you  like me, fortunate enough to be retired, hiding in the mancave, and just throwing cheap shots from the safe zone??



Your shots aren't cheap, they're just easy


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> We need to take off our skirts, grow a mustache and harden the fuck up.



That's a really misogynistic phrase.  But I'm not terribly surprised.


----------



## lenaitch

Gunplumber said:


> I think that unvaccinated people should have to pay for their healthcare.  There should be hospitals open for them but not all of them.  They are getting more privileges' than the rest of us and it has to stop. I have a friend who has cancer and now he has to go to Toronto from Ottawa to get Chemo as he cant get it up here as the hospital is filled with Covid patients, most who are unvaccinated. Is he paid extra to make up for the time and gas needed to go there? No. These anti-vaxers have made their choice and they should be limited on what they are allowed to do and where to go. We have all heard stories of surgeries canceled and not being able to go see their doctors, maybe they should get a refund on the taxes they have paid for health care?
> If it was fair and all people were being equally treated, then I would be fine with unvaccinated not being charged for medical treatment but it seems like they are at the head of the line and everyone else has to wait. It is wrong.
> 
> The surge of vacinations now, when they know they wont be able to keep their jobs or go get their pot or booze just shows how selfish they are and that they dont give a frack that the rest of us are in lockdown because of them.


Just on a very pedantic point, your friend might be able to recover some costs.  I don't know the details but it might be worth checking into.  A friend of our daughter has to travel between two cities in N. Ontario for cancer treatment and receives an allowance.


----------



## mariomike

Fishbone Jones said:


> I have to ask, if you don't  mind. What is a 'vitality point' and what are the benefits? Lower rates on your medical benefit premium, or something like that?



It's a "Rewards and Benefits" program offered by our insurance provider "to share proof of their COVID-19 vaccination".



> Available this spring, Manulife _Vitality _program members will have the option to share proof of their COVID-19 vaccination with Vitality in exchange for 400 Vitality Points. These Vitality Points help program members achieve new status levels and unlock different rewards within the program.







__





						Explore Partner Rewards and Benefits | Manulife
					






					www.manulife.ca


----------



## Remius

While it does seem that there is wide spread support to bill unvaccinated COVID patients (which I am not opposed to in principle) I bet there will be some insurance company that will see an opportunity there to provide coverage to the unvaccinated.  Anything for a fast dollar lol. 

If the goal is to encourage vaccinations by the threat of billing people that are unvaccinated then sure.  But I think most of the unvaccinated are still going to take their chances. 

And if they get hospitalized I doubt that this policy will somehow help the system because if they get to that point they won’t care about what bill they get later.  They’ll still get admitted and treated but just have to pay or go on debt later.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> First of all your low opinion of the human race is laughable.   Yea,  having to do take out instead of indoor dining is the reason we all put a gun to our own heads and end it all.
> 
> Second, and I've asked before but no one has ever answered,  please tell me what new powers the Govt has now that it didn't have two years ago??     Just one.....please?
> 
> One question, have you gone back to work in one of those small businesses you're worried about, or are you  like me, fortunate enough to be retired, hiding in the mancave, and just throwing cheap shots from the safe zone??


So your satisfied going round and round ad nauseum. How many shots are you willing to take every year, because of their lousy efficacy? How many years do you plan on wearing ineffective masks? How many weeks per cycle are you willing to spend isolated? How long do we wait for our economy and small businesses are out of operation for good? What is the peak unemployment your ready to accept? And how much more of your paycheck are you willing to give up, paying for all those that have been left without means of making a living? See, I think about these things, where you don't. You're right in your last statement though. You are one of those that hide in your mancave, seal yourself off and say Fuck the World, I'm retired. Take cheap shots at people that don't share your fuck you attitude. I'm concerned about my country and my fellow man. I take an active role in politics. As is my right. I have no 'safe' zone. I have altered very little of my life from pre pandemic days. I have no safe zone. I meet with who I want, when I want and do what I want. In fact, two vaccinations has been my total covid contribution. Not one other single thing has changed for me. Yes I'm retired, but I won't bunker down like you and hide. So no, my concerns aren't tossed out from my mancave, like you. What I do though, being retired and concerned for small business, is things like wait and shop at small business and leave generous tips to any mom and pop shop that had to close from government edict. My own way of helping, small thing but both sides feel good and it helps them. I don't have a low opinion of the human race. You are no authority on that. You have a personal opinion that doesn't jive with mine. Your weapon is ridicule and nose in the air superiority. Just like our PM. I have yet to recall a single incident where you offered any sort of suggested solution or means of mitigation. Instead, as you've admitted, you hide in your basement, put on your blinders and tow the popular party line. Letting anyone with any political power tell you how to live. Why? Because it's easy being a sheep.

Why do I think the way I do? Because of this kind of leadership, but I guess you're ok with that.



> They “do not believe in science, who are often misogynists, often racists, too; it is a sect, a small group, but who are taking up space, and here we have to make a choice, as a leader, as a country,” added Trudeau.
> 
> He made the shocking statement that he is unsure if Canada should even “tolerate these people” while telling the host that the unvaccinated “are going to block us” from getting back to the “things we like doing.”


Taking up space, can't be tolerated, misogynist and racists, a cult. Unless you're from Quebec, then you're doing fine.

And all without invoking Godwins Law


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> So your satisfied going round and round ad nauseum. How many shots are you willing to take every year, because of their lousy efficacy? How many years do you plan on wearing ineffective masks? How many weeks per cycle are you willing to spend isolated? How long do we wait for our economy and small businesses are out of operation for good? What is the peak unemployment your ready to accept? And how much more of your paycheck are you willing to give up, paying for all those that have been left without means of making a living? You're right in your last statement though. You are one of those that hide in your mancave, seal yourself off and say Fuck the World, I'm retired. Take cheap shots at people that don't share your fuck you attitude. I'm concerned about my country and my fellow man. I take an active role in politics. As is my right. I have no 'safe' zone. I have altered very little of my life from pre pandemic days. I have no safe zone. I meet with who I want, when I want and do what I want. In fact, two vaccinations has been my total covid contribution. Not one other single thing has changed for me. Yes I'm retired, but I won't bunker down like you and hide. So no, my concerns aren't tossed out from my mancave, like you. What I do though, being retired and concerned for small business, is wait and shop at small business and leave generous tips to any shop that had to close from government edict. I don't have a low opinion of the human race. You are no authority on that. You have a personal opinion that doesn't jive with mine. Your weapon is ridicule and nose in the air superiority. I have yet to recall a single incident where you offered any sort of suggested solution or means of mitigation. Instead, as you've admitted, you hide in your basement, put on your blinders and tow the popular party line. Letting anyone with any political power tell you how to live. Why? Because it's easy being a sheep.



The vaccines have excellent efficacy at keeping people out of hospital and ICU, as shown by per capita hospitalization rates an order of magnitude larger for the unvaccinated, so you’re making that up. The rate of sniffles has never been the concern, but of course you knew that, even if you choose to ignore it.

Cloth masks have never been suggested as stopping an airborne virus. They were always and only encouraged for outbound droplet control (catching coughs). Some health authorities resisted admitting COVID is airborne for the longest time, likely for political reasons. You’ll note that N95 and equivalent particulate respirators DO have considerable efficacy, and that various clinicians and researchers have been recommending them for quite some time. Government has finally accepted that and is distributing them to schools.

Your grasp of some of the key realities of this pandemic remains loose, at best.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> As long as treatment is not denied I don’t care.
> 
> They’ll get treated and get the bill.
> 
> The moment they deny is the moment this country goes down a darker path.


What happens to those who cannot pay for the tens of thousands it costs for a multi week hospital stay on a ventilator?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Actually I'm out doing pinball stuff all the time....so nice try my friend.   I just don't share your view on how weak the human race is....

EDIT:  also your callous disregard for those who need to work.   Got news for ya' buddy, folks working at Walmart and Costco are very happy with limits on the amount of people their bosses are allowed to shove into a building.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Gunplumber said:


> I think that unvaccinated people should have to pay for their healthcare.  There should be hospitals open for them but not all of them.  They are getting more privileges' than the rest of us and it has to stop. I have a friend who has cancer and now he has to go to Toronto from Ottawa to get Chemo as he cant get it up here as the hospital is filled with Covid patients, most who are unvaccinated. Is he paid extra to make up for the time and gas needed to go there? No. These anti-vaxers have made their choice and they should be limited on what they are allowed to do and where to go. We have all heard stories of surgeries canceled and not being able to go see their doctors, maybe they should get a refund on the taxes they have paid for health care?
> If it was fair and all people were being equally treated, then I would be fine with unvaccinated not being charged for medical treatment but it seems like they are at the head of the line and everyone else has to wait. It is wrong.
> 
> The surge of vacinations now, when they know they wont be able to keep their jobs or go get their pot or booze just shows how selfish they are and that they dont give a frack that the rest of us are in lockdown because of them.


They do pay for their healthcare, it's called taxes LOL


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> So your satisfied going round and round ad nauseum. How many shots are you willing to take every year, because of their lousy efficacy? How many years do you plan on wearing ineffective masks? How many weeks per cycle are you willing to spend isolated? How long do we wait for our economy and small businesses are out of operation for good? What is the peak unemployment your ready to accept? And how much more of your paycheck are you willing to give up, paying for all those that have been left without means of making a living? See, I think about these things, where you don't. You're right in your last statement though. You are one of those that hide in your mancave, seal yourself off and say Fuck the World, I'm retired. Take cheap shots at people that don't share your fuck you attitude. I'm concerned about my country and my fellow man. I take an active role in politics. As is my right. I have no 'safe' zone. I have altered very little of my life from pre pandemic days. I have no safe zone. I meet with who I want, when I want and do what I want. In fact, two vaccinations has been my total covid contribution. Not one other single thing has changed for me. Yes I'm retired, but I won't bunker down like you and hide. So no, my concerns aren't tossed out from my mancave, like you. What I do though, being retired and concerned for small business, is things like wait and shop at small business and leave generous tips to any mom and pop shop that had to close from government edict. My own way of helping, small thing but both sides feel good and it helps them. I don't have a low opinion of the human race. You are no authority on that. You have a personal opinion that doesn't jive with mine. Your weapon is ridicule and nose in the air superiority. Just like our PM. I have yet to recall a single incident where you offered any sort of suggested solution or means of mitigation. Instead, as you've admitted, you hide in your basement, put on your blinders and tow the popular party line. Letting anyone with any political power tell you how to live. Why? Because it's easy being a sheep.
> 
> Why do I think the way I do? Because of this kind of leadership, but I guess you're ok with that.
> 
> 
> Taking up space, can't be tolerated, misogynist and racists, a cult. Unless you're from Quebec, then you're doing fine.
> 
> And all without invoking Godwins Law


By the way,....once again you never did answer my question.   Did some awesome tap dancing around why we're all 'sheep" etc,....but facts, well they obviously scare you.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Altair said:


> What happens to those who cannot pay for the tens of thousands it costs for a multi week hospital stay on a ventilator?



Well, if the US model was followed and an uninsured patient was admitted for such services (_depending on the facility, admission or level of service is not guaranteed, but at some (most) service cannot be easily/legally denied_) then he/she would be billed and after all the "blood from a stone" was extracted, the patient would declare bankruptcy if it was within his interest.

The hospital/physician/ancilliary services (they may not all be the same cost center) would try to recoup some of the unpaid billings from state/federal funding mechanisms.  What doesn't get reimbursed is eaten by the hospital who in all likelihood raises prices to cover unrecouped billings but if they are a standalone facility their reimbursement rate is usually at the mercy of government set rates (Medicare/Medicaid/Tricare) or insurance company.

And of note




__





						Fact Sheet: COVID-19 Pandemic Results in Bankruptcies or Closures for Some Hospitals | AHA
					

As the COVID-19 pandemic has persisted and again surged across the country, infecting more than 10 million people and resulting in over a quarter million deaths, America’s hospitals and health systems continue to face historic challenges. Since the start of the pandemic, hospitals and health...




					www.aha.org
				




*The financial pressures of COVID-19 are a considerable risk to the operation of some hospitals.*

More than three dozen hospitals have entered bankruptcy this year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.
In a series of reports released in May and June, the AHA projected that hospital and health system losses were expected to be at least $323.1 billion through 2020.
Kaufman Hall projected that hospital margins could sink to -7% in the second half of 2020, an unsustainable level for America’s hospitals.
Moreover, Kaufman Hall projected that more than half of all hospitals will have negative margins during the fourth quarter of 2020.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Hey Bruce 'the science is settled' Monkhouse. Have a read and try understand what's being said here. I have no illusions though that you'll accept it.




__





						Why the Bastardization of the Scientific Method Is so Dangerous | Mike Roberts
					

The further scientists drift from the scientific method to tell people what they should do, the more they undermine science.



					fee.org


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Actually I'm out doing pinball stuff all the time....so nice try my friend.   I just don't share your view on how weak the human race is....
> 
> EDIT:  also your callous disregard for those who need to work.   Got news for ya' buddy, folks working at Walmart and Costco are very happy with limits on the amount of people their bosses are allowed to shove into a building.


Nice bail while trying to throw it back on me. Rather childish as a matter of fact. You are the one that said you are hiding in your mancave, but now wish to flip you're narrative when called on it. Remember saying this? "*or are you like me*, fortunate enough to be retired, *hiding in the mancave.*" And yet you continue to say I have a low regard for the human race. It's not the human race, I have full confidence that the human race is capable of a great many things. Including free thought. My low esteem is for the sheep that unquestionably follow the edicts prescribed by people like the PM. I have low esteem for zombies without the balls to question the science, or say the science is settled. I have low esteem for dick pullers who attack ideas with ad hominems. However, I have high esteem for the human race, because most of them can see the what is happening to the world around them and wish to do something about it contrary to the sheep, zombies and dick pullers. I also have high esteem for the humankind who will one day say enough is enough. You already know what side you're on.

You really, really don't know me. I really don't care what you think I'm doing. You just carry on chastising people because you don't agree with their position. In which case, I'll assume you adhere to the trudeau style of divisivness and his views on unvaxed racist, misogynous, cultish Canadians who can't be tolerated, until proven otherwise. Showing the limits of your thinking, yes, people like my wife are still employed in low paying, part time positions, only because the big box stores are allowed to open. Two doors down from me is one of our busiest shopping streets. No big box stores. It is populated with a few banks, some pharmacies and a couple of dentist and doctors offices. Every other business on this main shopping street is shuttered. Not allowed to open, losing thousands monthly. Many closed for good and for sale. Those are the ones that have my concern. However, because you are not inconvenienced by your trips to Walmart, Home Depot or your favourite hole in the wall for micro switches and light bulbs for your hobby, all the people that have the stores I mentioned are immaterial to your narrative. As long as you can attack my ideas, you're fine and happy squirreled away in you pinball heaven. As usual, those that scream most are the worst offenders and your utter callous, disregard for the less fortunate of the human race is where you live.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Who right now in Ontario is not allowed to open???   Seriously, who??   {and just throwing out the same tired, "sheeple, Trudeau, power grab, etc" ranting isn't answering a question]


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Who's not allowed to open???   Seriously, who??


After all the above, I have no reason or wish to correspond with someone that has your attitude to their fellow humans. You're a smart cookie, I'm pretty sure if you get out of your mancave, you can figure it out. If I could put Moderators on Ignore, you would have just moved to the top of the list.
L8R


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

_quote_ "Second, and I've asked before but no one has ever answered,  please tell me what new powers the Govt has now that it didn't have two years ago??     Just one.....please?"

"Who right now in Ontario is not allowed to open???" _quote_


Friggin' amazing the power of two questions......


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> I have low esteem for zombies without the balls to question the science, or say the science is settled. I have low esteem for dick pullers who attack ideas with ad hominems.


While I recognize I’m probably on fingers jammed firmly in ears ignore, the lack of self-awareness, and the rampant hypocrisy just in these two lines is amazing.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Of course not.  But the alarmists are predicting this could happen because it would confirm their fears are founded.
> 
> *No one is going to be forced by law and authority to get vaccinated. *  Our rates are actually pretty good.  Not perfect but getting there.
> 
> Mandates in certain sectors and for certain things that the feds or provincial gets have jurisdiction in.  Where people can choose to walk away or comply until we get through this.



Let's see how this ages.


----------



## QV

brihard said:


> In what context? *If you mean compulsory vaccines, not a chance. *That would be a hard line in the sand for a lot of people, including those they would rely on to actually carry such a plan out. Plus, invoking S.33 doesn’t negate professional medical ethics. Medical practitioners would not be allowed to compulsorily vaccinate without patient consent.



And this.


----------



## Quirky

I remember a time when Vaccine Passports were considered a conspiracy theory and fear spread from X side. Now look at us.

What's the next one, mandatory vaccinations will never happen in Canada? I'll sit here and wait it out...



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Got news for ya' buddy, folks working at Walmart and Costco are very happy with limits on the amount of people their bosses are allowed to shove into a building.



Limits that are no where near enforced, at least not since the very beginning. People are still shoulder to shoulder in the Costco and Superstores of Canada. Not that will make any difference unless you let one person in the store at a time, with a N95 mask, not those useless cloth pieces of crap we've been forced to wear for two years now. All these restrictions and limits are just toilet paper now.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Let's see how this ages.


Sure.  If it gets to the point that lawful authority forces people by law to get the vaccine I’ll eat crow.  They’ll still have a choice.  Just that life will and is getting harder for the unvaccinated.  But we’ll see if we ever see any legislation that forces it.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They do pay for their healthcare, it's called taxes LOL


To be clear, only those making more than 16k a yr pay taxes (Ontario). Not including)g CPP or EI as actual taxes as they do not go towards the general day to day covering of government services.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> What happens to those who cannot pay for the tens of thousands it costs for a multi week hospital stay on a ventilator?


Debt. Bankruptcy etc etc.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It won't  if he can't answer my questions I have no requirement to answer his, or any proxy that decides to take up his torch.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> While I recognize I’m probably on fingers jammed firmly in ears ignore, the lack of self-awareness, and the rampant hypocrisy just in these two lines is amazing.


Nope, simply responding in kind.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> Sure.  If it gets to the point that lawful authority forces people by law to get the vaccine I’ll eat crow.  They’ll still have a choice.  Just that life will and is getting harder for the unvaccinated.  But we’ll see if we ever see any legislation that forces it.


Given that it would require invoking S.33, the only province I can conceive of seriously considering it is Quebec, but I think even their government would shy away from this. With Omicron’s blisteringly fast spread, the peak will be apparent before too long, and it will be equally obvious that the lag time for vaccinations to take effect would carry that well into the downslope. There won’t be appetite for that. And besides, I remain perfectly comfortable with my prediction that medical professionals would not compulsorily vaccinate people without consent.



Czech_pivo said:


> To be clear, only those making more than 16k a yr pay taxes (Ontario). Not including)g CPP or EI as actual taxes as they do not go towards the general day to day covering of government services.



Not all taxes are income or payroll. In Ontario, sales tax equals 4/5 of the total income tax, and is not levied progressively- though admittedly, higher income individuals likely buy more things that they have to pay GST on. Still, there’s a considerable tax burden on anyone, and the poor are in even less of a position to absorb any hit. Let’s dispense with the notion that the poor do not pay tax.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> Debt. Bankruptcy etc etc.



In the USA if you can't afford it in the first place, you just die.


dapaterson said:


> MGen Fortin is back in court, appealing the earlier judgement.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dany-fortin-appeal-goes-forward-1.6309122



"Fortin argues that he was in effect relieved of his duties in May 2021 and has not been reassigned to a position commensurate with his rank, nor has he been asked to report to work or produce any sort of work product."

8 Months at home with full salary to do what exactly? Must be nice...


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Debt. Bankruptcy etc etc.


Haha, perfect. 

Many will avoid going to hospital if it leads to bankruptcy and seeing as many have lost jobs and benefits that would be the only option more many. 

Not quite denying care, but the next best thing and it will lead to more capacity in the hospitals for those who got vaccinated. 

I support this 100 percent.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Haha, perfect.
> 
> Many will avoid going to hospital if it leads to bankruptcy and seeing as many have lost jobs and benefits that would be the only option more many.
> 
> Not quite denying care, but the next best thing and it will lead to more capacity in the hospitals for those who got vaccinated.
> 
> I support this 100 percent.


Of course you do.  And it’s a consequence of their choice. But again when it gets to the point that they actually need a ventilator and hospital care they won’t care and still go.  You might have a couple of die
hards  that might not but not enough to free up capacity.  And as I said, I bet insurance bet insurance companies will start offering coverage.

In principle I’m okay with this if gets more people vaccinated.

But I will also mention your laughter and glee at what might befall people demonstrates what a terrible human being you are.  This forum, the CAF and Canadian society would be far better off without you.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> Of course you do.  And it’s a consequence of their choice. But again when it gets to the point that they actually need a ventilator and hospital care they won’t care and still go.  You might have a couple of die
> hards  that might not but not enough to free up capacity.  And as I said, I bet insurance bet insurance companies will start offering coverage.


I'm sure some do. How many can afford this with their sudden unemployed, underemployed status remains be seen. Maybe it is enough to free up capacity. 


Remius said:


> In principle I’m okay with this if gets more people vaccinated.
> 
> But I will also mention your laughter and glee at what might befall people demonstrates what terrible human being you are. This forum, the CAF and Canadian society would be far better off without you.


We come to the same conclusion, maybe for different reasons, but same conclusion none the less. 

It matters little why we end up at the same conclusion at the end of the day.


----------



## Remius

So I had to help administer a RW for a member that was anti vaccine.  One of the things we were briefed on was to make sure we showed some compassion for the position they were being put in. 

To be clear I am not against this mandate and I think that anti vaxers are misinformed and being misled by a group of lunatics.  That’s my take.

But after talking to this individual to try and understand I realised that this 21 year old was raised by her parents to believe this.  She was never vaccinated as a child for anything.  Who knows where the parents got this from either. 

And there is plenty of bad info out there being peddled that people out there use to confirm their beliefs.  And yes some of these people peddling this are bad people.  But good people sometimes follow bad people and bad advice. 

Why I wouldn’t deny health care to a smoker?  Because at one time it was acceptable and even encouraged to do so.  And government was complicit.  They didn’t take steps to stop it In earnest until the late 20th century.  

Same with booze. Government profits heavily from the sale of booze.  So no.  You don’t deny healthcare based on choice that the government had a hand in encouraging and profiting off of.

As for COVID.  People have fallen for bad info.  Reinforced by inept governments that can’t get their messaging straight and not actually doing anything to really counter that misinformation.  Then as some have pointed out let a health care system languish for years.  So now because of that neglect and incompetence some want to deny?

Bill them for it.  Make it hard for them to be a part of society if needed.  Whatever it takes to get through this.

But no one should be gleeful or happy about it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> So I had to help administer a RW for a member that was anti vaccine.  One of the things we were briefed on was to make sure we showed some compassion for the position they were being put in.
> 
> To be clear I am not against this mandate and I think that anti vaxers are misinformed and being misled by a group of lunatics.  That’s my take.
> 
> But after talking to this individual to try and understand I realised that this 21 year old was raised by her parents to believe this.  She was never vaccinated as a child for anything.  Who knows where the parents got this from either.
> 
> And there is plenty of bad info out there being peddled that people out there use to confirm their beliefs.  And yes some of these people peddling this are bad people.  But good people sometimes follow bad people and bad advice.
> 
> Why I wouldn’t deny health care to a smoker?  Because at one time it was acceptable and even encouraged to do so.  And government was complicit.  They didn’t take steps to stop it In earnest until the late 20th century.
> 
> Same with booze. Government profits heavily from the sale of booze.  So no.  You don’t deny healthcare based on choice that the government had a hand in encouraging and profiting off of.
> 
> As for COVID.  People have fallen for bad info.  Reinforced by inept governments that can’t get their messaging straight and not actually doing anything to really counter that misinformation.  Then as some have pointed out let a health care system languish for years.  So now because of that neglect and incompetence some want to deny?
> 
> Bill them for it.  Make it hard for them to be a part of society if needed.  Whatever it takes to get through this.
> 
> But no one should be gleeful or happy about it.



All that aside, well done for carrying through with the RW. 

You might have just saved a life, whether or not they wanted you to do that


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> So I had to help administer a RW for a member that was anti vaccine.  One of the things we were briefed on was to make sure we showed some compassion for the position they were being put in.
> 
> To be clear I am not against this mandate and I think that anti vaxers are misinformed and being misled by a group of lunatics.  That’s my take.
> 
> But after talking to this individual to try and understand I realised that this 21 year old was raised by her parents to believe this.  She was never vaccinated as a child for anything.  Who knows where the parents got this from either.
> 
> And there is plenty of bad info out there being peddled that people out there use to confirm their beliefs.  And yes some of these people peddling this are bad people.  But good people sometimes follow bad people and bad advice.
> 
> Why I wouldn’t deny health care to a smoker?  Because at one time it was acceptable and even encouraged to do so.  And government was complicit.  They didn’t take steps to stop it In earnest until the late 20th century.
> 
> Same with booze. Government profits heavily from the sale of booze.  So no.  You don’t deny healthcare based on choice that the government had a hand in encouraging and profiting off of.
> 
> As for COVID.  People have fallen for bad info.  Reinforced by inept governments that can’t get their messaging straight and not actually doing anything to really counter that misinformation.  Then as some have pointed out let a health care system languish for years.  So now because of that neglect and incompetence some want to deny?
> 
> Bill them for it.  Make it hard for them to be a part of society if needed.  Whatever it takes to get through this.
> 
> But no one should be gleeful or happy about it.


Kudos on the ethical and compassionate approach to managing a difficult personnel issue.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> So I had to help administer a RW for a member that was anti vaccine.  One of the things we were briefed on was to make sure we showed some compassion for the position they were being put in.
> 
> To be clear I am not against this mandate and I think that anti vaxers are misinformed and being misled by a group of lunatics.  That’s my take.
> 
> But after talking to this individual to try and understand I realised that this 21 year old was raised by her parents to believe this.  She was never vaccinated as a child for anything.  Who knows where the parents got this from either.
> 
> And there is plenty of bad info out there being peddled that people out there use to confirm their beliefs.  And yes some of these people peddling this are bad people.  But good people sometimes follow bad people and bad advice.
> 
> Why I wouldn’t deny health care to a smoker?  Because at one time it was acceptable and even encouraged to do so.  And government was complicit.  They didn’t take steps to stop it In earnest until the late 20th century.
> 
> Same with booze. Government profits heavily from the sale of booze.  So no.  You don’t deny healthcare based on choice that the government had a hand in encouraging and profiting off of.
> 
> As for COVID.  People have fallen for bad info.  Reinforced by inept governments that can’t get their messaging straight and not actually doing anything to really counter that misinformation.  Then as some have pointed out let a health care system languish for years.  So now because of that neglect and incompetence some want to deny?
> 
> Bill them for it.  Make it hard for them to be a part of society if needed.  Whatever it takes to get through this.
> 
> But no one should be gleeful or happy about it.


I only have so much compassion to give. 

I ration it out to those dying at home because hospitals are full of unvaccinated covid patients. 

And again, I agree with you, bill the unvaccinated. Why does it matter why I agree with you?


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


> I only have so much compassion to give.
> 
> I ration it out to those dying at home because hospitals are full of unvaccinated covid patients.
> 
> And again, I agree with you, bill the unvaccinated. Why does it matter why I agree with you?


Compassion is arguably an active venture with a battery that can drain. Basic human decency can be held onto passively and indefinitely.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Because this thread is usually extra spicy, I decided to make a little joke about this:

Unlike customers, SAQ workers aren't required to be vaccinated

Can't get the liquor due to Vaxx Status?  .......

Become the Liquor! 🤣


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Compassion is arguably an active venture with a battery that can drain. Basic human decency can be held onto passively and indefinitely.


----------



## brihard

Altair said:


>


Yes, you’ve made that extremely clear. I don’t think it reflects on you the way you may think it does.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> Given that it would require invoking S.33, the only province I can conceive of seriously considering it is Quebec, but I think even their government would shy away from this. With Omicron’s blisteringly fast spread, the peak will be apparent before too long, and it will be equally obvious that the lag time for vaccinations to take effect would carry that well into the downslope. There won’t be appetite for that. And besides, I remain perfectly comfortable with my prediction that medical professionals would not compulsorily vaccinate people without consent.


Given that Sec. 33 binds the Crown and its agencies, but not private individuals, the injunctions and court challenges by the various Colleges and professional bodies of all the needle-holders, plus those dragooned into dragging the recalcitrant to them, would likely outlast the pandemic.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The latest from the CDC today. 75% of all covid deaths had 4 or more comorbidities.








						CDC director says study of vaccinated people show 75% of COVID-19 deaths 'had four or more comorbidities'
					

Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said 75% of vaccinated adults who died of COVID-19, as recorded in a newly released study, had at least four comorbidities, sparking an outpouring of commentary from people surprised by her statement and others…




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> The latest from the CDC today. 75% of all covid deaths had 4 or more comorbidities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director says study of vaccinated people show 75% of COVID-19 deaths 'had four or more comorbidities'
> 
> 
> Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said 75% of vaccinated adults who died of COVID-19, as recorded in a newly released study, had at least four comorbidities, sparking an outpouring of commentary from people surprised by her statement and others…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


In the study of 40 people......."hey quick, a straw just ran by, grab it..."

"While it is unclear what data the CDC director was citing, it is possible Walensky was citing a recent study of 40 vaccinated people, 78% of whom suffered from at least four comorbidities."


You know what's funny is I agree that after the end of January we need to open everything up again and live with it. [barring something new and more sinister]   I just don't need to insult folks and rant wildly about what I think is the way to move forward.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> The latest from the CDC today. 75% of all covid deaths had 4 or more comorbidities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director says study of vaccinated people show 75% of COVID-19 deaths 'had four or more comorbidities'
> 
> 
> Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said 75% of vaccinated adults who died of COVID-19, as recorded in a newly released study, had at least four comorbidities, sparking an outpouring of commentary from people surprised by her statement and others…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com


Interesting to start seeing numbers put to that.  Most of us gather ‘comorbidities’ as we age; some we’re aware of and some we’re not; some the product of choice, some the product of chance. Grandma with cancer isn’t worth any less than grandma without cancer.

I’m also going to suggest that, of interest to us here, there are probably a lot of ‘comorbidities’ potentially present in anyone who made it through a career in CAF. Lots of exposure to things, substances, and tasks that do various not-great things to the human body over time… Some smattering of rampant alcoholism and cigarette addition to boot… Obviously some other things (a culture of quasi-fitness, and medically restrictive selection on enrollment) offset that to some extent, but I’m not sure I’d want COVID after three tours’ worth of sucking poo dust and burning garbage, or working in a ship’s engine room.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

brihard said:


> Interesting to start seeing numbers put to that.  Most of us gather ‘comorbidities’ as we age; some we’re aware of and some we’re not; some the product of choice, some the product of chance. Grandma with cancer isn’t worth any less than grandma without cancer.
> 
> I’m also going to suggest that, of interest to us here, there are probably a lot of ‘comorbidities’ potentially present in anyone who made it through a career in CAF. Lots of exposure to things, substances, and tasks that do various not-great things to the human body over time… Some smattering of rampant alcoholism and cigarette addition to boot… Obviously some other things (a culture of quasi-fitness, and medically restrictive selection on enrollment) offset that to some extent, but I’m not sure I’d want COVID after three tours’ worth of sucking poo dust and burning garbage, or working in a ship’s engine room.


Never that of that....what was the "grade" for a comorbidity?    I'm sure any of us over 50 have a couple or more if it means "something that could kill us someday".


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Never that of that....what was the "grade" for a comorbidity?    I'm sure any of us over 50 have a couple or more if it means "something that could kill us someday".


Here’s the study:









						Risk Factors for Severe COVID-19 Outcomes ...
					

This report describes risk factors for severe COVID-19 outcome among vaccinated people.




					www.cdc.gov
				




And here are the eight things deemed ‘risk factors’ (which are being called comornidities):



> In this study, age ≥65 years, immunosuppression, diabetes, and chronic kidney, cardiac, pulmonary, neurologic, and liver disease were associated with higher odds for severe COVID-19 outcomes; all persons with severe COVID-19 outcomes after primary vaccination had at least one of these risk factors.



Those are very broad categories and would capture many diseases or disorders of the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, or nervous system.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

brihard said:


> Those are very broad categories and would capture many diseases or disorders of the heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, or nervous system.


Yes,  I expected to see cancer on the list, unless thats included in 'disorders' of those organs/systems.


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Yes,  I expected to see cancer on the list, unless thats included in 'disorders' of those organs/systems.


Probably depends on the cancer. I would imagine lung cancer would count as pulmonary, for example. Just ‘cancer’ is probably too broad.


----------



## kev994

lenaitch said:


> Given that Sec. 33 binds the Crown and its agencies, but not private individuals, the injunctions and court challenges by the various Colleges and professional bodies of all the needle-holders, plus those dragooned into dragging the recalcitrant to them, would likely outlast the pandemic.


That’s actually not a terrible political move… pass a law that you know won’t happen, then for the next 3 years blame everything on the heathans jamming up progress with the court system.


----------



## kev994

Ontario Kids going back to School

Some good news/ progress from the centre of the universe.


----------



## SupersonicMax

brihard said:


> Probably depends on the cancer. I would imagine lung cancer would count as pulmonary, for example. Just ‘cancer’ is probably too broad.


Other than cancers affecting the respiratory system or immune system, that’s not the cancer itself that is the issue but rather, the effect of the treatments, which often make people immuno-compromised.


----------



## brihard

SupersonicMax said:


> Other than cancers affecting the respiratory system or immune system, that’s not the cancer itself that is the issue but rather, the effect of the treatments, which often make people immuno-compromised.


Yes, very aware. I’m driving a close family member to chemo and regular testing. Immunocompromise is our big fear at present, though both his household and mine are all vaccinated and booster, and we are each others’ only ‘bubble’.


----------



## McG

brihard said:


> Given that it would require invoking S.33, the only province I can conceive of seriously considering it is Quebec, but I think even their government would shy away from this.


The charter is subject to “such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” If government truly believes that mandatory vaccinations are required to protect society, then it should also believe that the notwithstanding clause does not need to be invoked. 

We don’t need the notwithstanding clause to outlaw suicide bombings regardless of how many times the dude in the vest (and his handlers) chant “my body my choice.”


----------



## brihard

McG said:


> The charter is subject to “such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” If government truly believes that mandatory vaccinations are required to protect society, then it should also believe that the notwithstanding clause does not need to be invoked.
> 
> We don’t need the notwithstanding clause to outlaw suicide bombings regardless of how many times the dude in the vest (and his handlers) chant “my body my choice.”


Realistically, no way mandatory vaccination (in the sense of physically forcing someone) could possibly survive Charter challenge no matter the strength of a possible S.1 defense of the law. It would fail the Oakes test, no question. Invoking the Notwithstanding clause would absolutely be necessary, which is good because that’s a huge political hurdle.

In any case, I don’t support forced vaccinations nor do I believe in vaccine mandates outside of the sorts we’ve seen already. I’m just hypothesizing on what the legalities would look like.


----------



## McG

brihard said:


> It would fail the Oakes test, no question.


I don’t know that is a certainty.









						Oakes Test - Centre for Constitutional Studies
					

The Oakes test was created by the Supreme Court of Canada in the 1986 case of R v Oakes.  The test interprets section 1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states that rights are guaranteed, “subject only to such reasonable limits . . .




					www.constitutionalstudies.ca


----------



## brihard

McG said:


> I don’t know that is a certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oakes Test - Centre for Constitutional Studies
> 
> 
> The Oakes test was created by the Supreme Court of Canada in the 1986 case of R v Oakes.  The test interprets section 1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which states that rights are guaranteed, “subject only to such reasonable limits . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.constitutionalstudies.ca


Forcing a needle into someone? Yeah. Yeah it would. It would abjectly fail the ‘minimal Impairment’ element if nothing else. The same objective could be achieved through other less intrusive means. Other aspects of Canadian law have found that infringements on physical bodily integrity are about the most intrusive thing the state can do. The same policy objectives could be achieved by other less intrusive means, such as proof of vaccination requirements and other restrictions on mobility and participation in activity.


----------



## McG

That is a steep threshold to overcome, but if politicians truly believe that forced vaccinations are necessary then they should believe they can argue that under section 1. And if they don’t believe that they can make the argument under section 1, then they probably don’t really believe that forced vaccinations are necessary.

I think Québec has found an effective approach by making vaccinations mandatory to access the alcohol and pot shops. Other provinces should take note. 









						Opinion | Booze and cannabis may be our best weapons in the battle against vaccine hesitancy
					

No vaccination, no booze — Quebec’s scheme targeted at the vaccine hesitant certainly gives a whole new meaning to “shots all around,” Susan Delacourt writes.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## mariomike

In other news today at,


> The most heavily used urban mass transit system in Canada and the third largest in North America, after the New York City Transit Authority and Mexico City Metro.











						TTC terminates more than 350 employees who didn’t comply with vaccination policy
					

The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) has terminated 354 employees who failed to comply with the agency’s COVID-19 vaccine policy.




					www.cp24.com


----------



## Czech_pivo

mariomike said:


> In other news today at,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TTC terminates more than 350 employees who didn’t comply with vaccination policy
> 
> 
> The Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) has terminated 354 employees who failed to comply with the agency’s COVID-19 vaccine policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cp24.com


2% of all employees failed to do this - 2%.


----------



## MilEME09

‘Deltacron’ is a new strain of COVID-19 and not a lab error, Cypriot scientist says
					






					nationalpost.com
				




Beware Deltacron? Potential new mutant strain, but some say it's a result of lab contamination. If not, a Strain that spreads like omicron but lethal like Delta is a nightmare scenario.


----------



## Altair

MilEME09 said:


> ‘Deltacron’ is a new strain of COVID-19 and not a lab error, Cypriot scientist says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beware Deltacron? Potential new mutant strain, but some say it's a result of lab contamination. If not, a Strain that spreads like omicron but lethal like Delta is a nightmare scenario.


I remember some people being hopeful about 2022.

Seems like another long year to me.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> “This isn't like a regular cold,” infectious diseases specialist Dr. Emilia Liana Falcone said, explaining that nobody should be under the impression that catching Omicron, or any other variant, is a good idea.
> 
> “Even individuals who have very mild symptoms or even no symptoms can develop long-term sequelae (after-effects) of COVID,” she said, adding that applies to people who are vaccinated and unvaccinated.
> 
> As the director of the Long-COVID Research Clinic at the Institut de recherches cliniques de Montreal (IRCM), Falcone has seen patients who are 18 months post-infection and still have lingering and sometimes serious health problems.
> 
> ...
> 
> While there’s still a lot to learn about Omicron, now considered to be the dominant variant circulating in Quebec, De Serres reiterates that people shouldn’t be under the illusion “that Omicron is now just a little cold.”











						Omicron 'isn’t a regular cold,' Quebec doctor says, urging people to avoid infection and risk of long-COVID
					

A top long-COVID-19 researcher in Montreal who's recovering from a recent infection herself is urging the population to get vaccinated, and beyond that, to do whatever it takes to avoid catching the virus altogether.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca
				












						Don’t treat Omicron COVID-19 variant like the flu, WHO warns - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Evidence, however, is emerging that Omicron is affecting the upper respiratory tract more than the lungs, causing milder symptoms than previous variants.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## brihard

MilEME09 said:


> ‘Deltacron’ is a new strain of COVID-19 and not a lab error, Cypriot scientist says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beware Deltacron? Potential new mutant strain, but some say it's a result of lab contamination. If not, a Strain that spreads like omicron but lethal like Delta is a nightmare scenario.


Not safe to assume that such a recombination would inherit the worst properties of both… Watch and shoot, I think.

In Ontario today there’s a record number of new admissions to ICU. Total COVID numbers in hospital continue to increase and set records. Total ICU and ventilator counts are sitting at a bit over half the record peak, and are continuing through accelerated growth. There is not yet an inflection point where the _rate_ of growth in ICU has begun to decelerate, signaling a potentially approaching peak- that means that the day over day growth still seems to be getting faster. Ontario kids go back to school Monday, if the plan doesn’t change, so from a standpoint of slowing spread, that’s not ideal. New York City this past week gives us an idea of how that’s gonna go.

Omicron _may_ be milder on a case by case basis, but its massive transmissibility is doing exactly what epidemiologists said it would do. Watch for ICU patient transfers to ramp up soon at this rate.

I haven’t look in detail at this sort of data for any other provinces, though I gather Quebec is getting slammed too. They’re releasing good vaccination status data for ICU admits- lots of double vaxed, but not boosted in both hospital and ICU, but unvaccinated are MUCH higher proportionate to the % of population.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Seems like another long year to me.



So there's a bright side.  As you get older, time seems to pass more quickly.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> ... around 54 per cent of them were admitted because of the virus, while about 46 per cent were admitted for other reasons but tested positive for COVID-19.











						46% of those currently hospitalized with COVID in Ontario were admitted for other reasons: new data  | Globalnews.ca
					

New data indicates that 46 per cent of people currently in Ontario hospitals with COVID-19 were admitted for reasons other than the virus.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## brihard

OceanBonfire said:


> 46% of those currently hospitalized with COVID in Ontario were admitted for other reasons: new data  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> New data indicates that 46 per cent of people currently in Ontario hospitals with COVID-19 were admitted for reasons other than the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Yes, but that doesn’t paint a clinical picture, really. You can go in for one think and become seriously I’ll with an infection caught while admitted- that’s been a problem for years such as MRSA. It also fails to capture those admitted for illness/injury resultant from COVID- someone has COVID, is disoriented, and misses their meds; someone has COVID, is sick, gets dehydrated and needs admission from resultant imbalance in liver issues they were successfully managing. Or someone admitted for an unrelated injury, catches COVID while there, and gets sick enough that it extends their stay and delays discharge. Doctors are sharing plenty of like examples.

The ‘with’ versus ‘for’ is a very coarse and un-nuanced stat, and it’s going to distract from the very real and hugely concerning overall impact on system capacity as a whole. All of the docs and nurses actually working in ER, acute care, and critical care seem to be voicing the same experiences and worries.


----------



## Good2Golf

lenaitch said:


> Cool.  They're trained as crews.  Five to hold the person down and one to jab.  Only kidding.  You're right.  You don't need to be a health professional to administer an IM jab; just basic sanitation protocols and how to properly draw a dosage.  I read an article about retired nurses willing to step in but the College isn't willing to re-certify them.


What about supervised self-administration? 🤔  Some Canadians are already experienced at that…


----------



## kev994

MilEME09 said:


> ‘Deltacron’ is a new strain of COVID-19 and not a lab error, Cypriot scientist says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beware Deltacron? Potential new mutant strain, but some say it's a result of lab contamination. If not, a Strain that spreads like omicron but lethal like Delta is a nightmare scenario.


It’s got a catchy name, reminds me of Deceptacon….


----------



## kev994

That didn’t take long. Quebec imposes tax on the unvaccinated


----------



## brihard

Ontario presser with the minister of health: Ontario is going to expedite getting internationally trained and educated nurses working in the Ontario healthcare system. This is fantastic and has been a major problem for years. These individuals with skills and training immigrate to Canada, move to our province, then don’t get to use it due to a brutally backlogged system. There will also be increased use of nursing students in supervised clinical work for the next while- makes sense. Many nursing tasks are easy and routine enough for this.

Looks like it’s ‘steady as she goes’ for the return to school next week.

Health minister is expecting a hospitalization peak in late Jan, and an ICU peak in early Feb. That’s concerning- three more weeks of ICU growth before a peak is very dangerous territory.


----------



## Brad Sallows

How does that work out for the jurisdictions losing internationally trained and educated nurses?  Improves their efforts to suppress COVID so they don't export another variant?


----------



## dapaterson

The IENs are already residents of Ontario.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Brad Sallows said:


> How does that work out for the jurisdictions losing internationally trained and educated nurses?  Improves their efforts to suppress COVID so they don't export another variant?


It’s an old argument that we tend to bury our head in the sand.
It’s all, whoa is us when homegrown bright, upcoming Canadians bail on Canada for the bright lights and big money of the US but it’s perfectly fine for us to poach a highly trained heart surgeon from South Africa, nurses from the Philippines or other such professions or places. We never bat an eye that we are robbing their best and brightest. We just say, their coming here because it’s a better opportunity. Well the exact same is true when home grown Canadians bail on us. I easily have two dozen people I went to high school/university who moved to the US from where I grew up in Windsor - from orthopaedic surgeons to PhD’s who graduated from U of T or Imperial College in London.


----------



## mariomike

"The Surge" has been a long time coming. The pandemic made it more acute. 









						Canada's looming acute-care crisis
					

T he health-care system is about to embrace the baby-boom generation and a recent symposium at Queen's University forecast that, at best, the results will be problematic. At worst, our system may implode.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## OldSolduer

Did yall catch the news about Quebec levying a fee, tax whatever you want to call it on the unvaxxed. 

🍟


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> Did yall catch the news about Quebec levying a fee, tax whatever you want to call it on the unvaxxed.
> 
> 🍟


Saw it. Austria has done that.  4K a month.  I’m curious to see what the number will look like in Quebecistan.


----------



## PuckChaser

I find it absolutely hilarious that the people that decried anyone suggesting we have a 2 Tier healthcare system now thinks it's a lovely idea to charge people for their healthcare because they caught an airborne virus that is impossible to stop. Once our courts pull their heads out of their asses, they're going to have a field day knocking that down.

While we're on the topic though, no more narcan for ODs, or safe needle sites, or treatment for the myriad of diseases associated with IV drug use. Let's end that drain on the healthcare system.


----------



## Halifax Tar

PuckChaser said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious that the people that decried anyone suggesting we have a 2 Tier healthcare system now thinks it's a lovely idea to charge people for their healthcare because they caught an airborne virus that is impossible to stop. Once our courts pull their heads out of their asses, they're going to have a field day knocking that down.
> 
> While we're on the topic though, no more narcan for ODs, or safe needle sites, or treatment for the myriad of diseases associated with IV drug use. Let's end that drain on the healthcare system.



I see it as smoke and mirrors.  

It's really just distracting the masses from us having let successive Gov's get away with underfunding our HCS for generations. 

Dumping this on 10% of population and dividing us further is an excellent move to distract from the real problem.  Also helps buy votes from the perpetually scared. 

Honestly the people should be just about in open revolt.  But we're a complacent people.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:


> I find it absolutely hilarious that the people that decried anyone suggesting we have a 2 Tier healthcare system now thinks it's a lovely idea to charge people for their healthcare because they caught an airborne virus that is impossible to stop. Once our courts pull their heads out of their asses, they're going to have a field day knocking that down.
> 
> While we're on the topic though, no more narcan for ODs, or safe needle sites, or treatment for the myriad of diseases associated with IV drug use. Let's end that drain on the healthcare system.


I do as well, but just so long as they change their minds and agree with charging the unvaccinated I don't much care. 

It is funny though.


----------



## QV

This country will mandate the C19 mRNA vaccines as mandatory for all and the only benefit the citizens will see is reducing the risk of a COVID caused death from almost zero to almost zero. And most of y'all are cheering for this.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> This country will mandate the C19 mRNA vaccines as mandatory for all and the only benefit the citizens will see is reducing the risk of a COVID caused death from almost zero to almost zero. And most of y'all are cheering for this.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-novavax-vaccine-production-facility-1.6233282
		




> Developed by the U.S. biotech company of the same name, Novavax is known as a protein subunit vaccine, making it different from the current COVID-19 vaccines we know. The bottom line: It still requires two doses, but trials have shown it is highly effective and quicker to manufacture.
> 
> "Having that type of effective vaccine within our borders is going to really allow us to roll this out to the population in a way that can take a bite out of the numbers," said Dr. Sumon Chakrabarti, an infectious diseases specialist at Trillium Health Partners in Mississauga.
> 
> Canadian production should start in 2022 at the National Research Council of Canada's Biologics Manufacturing Centre in Montreal.
> 
> Once it is up and running, federal officials say the facility should be able to produce 24 million doses of vaccine per year.



Probably not actually


----------



## Brad Sallows

> It’s all, whoa is us when homegrown bright, upcoming Canadians bail on Canada for the bright lights and big money of the US



Yes.  A few years back, bitching about doctors (in particular) moving to the US after receiving taxpayer-subsidized education in Canada was fashionable.  I suppose all the people we poach have paid full freight for their educations.

Parenthetically: migration of talented people from less to more developed countries is thought to be a net gain (based on the idea that they will be more able to achieve the promise of high potential).  Supposing that to be true, it doesn't follow that the gains (and losses) fall equally.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Came across this and found it interesting. Do I expect provax to believe? Heavens no, but I hope they'll at least give it a watch. If this had been FB or YouTube, it would likely be censored. Rumble.com doesn't appear to have problems with allowing both sides of a discussion, instead of pushing a narrative. He certainly seems as equally, if not more eminently qualified than the many GPs that are pushing the jab everyday, non stop. 









						Dr. Roger Hodkinson: "It's all been a pack of lies"
					

Dr. Roger Hodkinson: "It's all been a pack of lies"




					rumble.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

An expanded interview with Dr Hodkinson on the subject.









						Dr Hodkinson — On Being Censored and Receiving Death Threats
					

Dr Hodkinson went viral after a phone call to Edmonton council meeting, claiming that coronavirus "It’s no different from last year’s flu.".




					dryburgh.com


----------



## Remius

So this Doctor likes to make up stuff apparently.









						Pathologist falsely claims COVID-19 is a hoax, no worse than the flu
					

CLAIM: COVID-19 is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated” and “just another bad flu.” Roger Hodkinson, a pathologist who identifies himself as the former chairman of the Royal College of Physicians of Canada Examination Committee in Pathology, made the comments by phone during a public meeting in...




					apnews.com
				




Especially his previous “titles” etc.  Medical stolen valour it seems.


----------



## daftandbarmy

From last month... the 'rodeo ride' experience will likely continue:

CEOs across the market, economy agree on one 2022 prediction: More volatility, no end to Covid​
KEY POINTS

Chief executive officers of companies from sectors including healthcare, restaurants, packaged food, manufacturing, logistics and chip sector tell CNBC that any hope of a “return to normal” in 2022 is misguided and volatility will remain a primary business challenge.
CEOs see opportunity in the changes already made during Covid to become permanent competitive advantages, and for global economic growth to remain strong, but it won’t be without a high level of uncertainty and volatility.

CEOs across the economy were optimistic in their 2022 outlook before the omicron variant of Covid emerged. Are they still now?

A recent survey from the Business Roundtable revealed confidence about the outlook into next year, but that was conducted before the first cases of omicron were reported. On Wednesday, as the first omicron case in the U.S. was revealed in California — a second case from a Minnesota resident who recent travelled to New York City was revealed on Thursday — CNBC Contributor Suzy Welch led a CNBC Leadership Exchange virtual roundtable with CEOs across various sectors of the economy to gauge their confidence now as Covid dominates the market.


The message from CEOs: Expect volatility to rule again in 2022.









						CEOs across the market, economy agree on one 2022 prediction: More volatility, no end to Covid
					

CEOs across the economy were optimistic in their 2022 outlook before the omicron variant of Covid emerged. Are they still now?




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

"CEOs across the market, economy agree on one 2022 prediction: More volatility, no end to Covid"

I wonder where they got their medical research degrees?


----------



## Quirky

For the $30,000 I pay every year for healthcare, I feel confident I can get better value for my dollar in a privatized system.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Covid related - heard BMQ students in St-Jean are stuck eating only box lunches. Causing some break downs and VRs.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> For the $30,000 I pay every year for healthcare, I feel confident I can get better value for my dollar in a privatized system.


In what world are you paying 30,000$ for healthcare right now in Canada.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> Covid related - heard BMQ students in St-Jean are stuck eating only box lunches. Causing some break downs and VRs.


Hahahahaha!

I did that at the Infantry School for my entire summer of Phase Training in 2009.  Gagetown had twice the number of candidates doing courses then the dining facilities were designed to support.  

The solution was to have the Phase 3&4 Students box lunches for the entire summer so we wouldn't have to go to the Cafeteria.

I actually wanted to go to the Field just so I could eat a ration and not have to down another tuna salad sandwich 🤣

To this day I would rather eat a ration than touch another box lunch LOL


----------



## dapaterson

Box lunches at Air Force Bases are orders of magnitude better than those from Army Bases.


----------



## Quirky

Jarnhamar said:


> Covid related - heard BMQ students in St-Jean are stuck eating only box lunches. Causing some break downs and VRs.



Good. Let the world burn over a flu - at this point. 



Remius said:


> In what world are you paying 30,000$ for healthcare right now in Canada.


Income tax incurred vs. what provinces use taxes for care. I rounded up. Don’t forget about the fact that the vast majority pay almost nothing, leaving people who actually pay taxes ( like you and me) to foot a bill many times higher. Those people who pay almost nothing, use a disproportionate amount of the service. Because free.


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:


> Box lunches at Air Force Bases are orders of magnitude better than those from Army Bases.


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:


> Box lunches at *Air Force** some Canadian Forces* Bases are orders of magnitude better than those from *Army* *some other Canadian Forces* Bases.


Sounds like a CAF Food Services policy consistency and standardization issue.


----------



## dapaterson

It's a question of organizational priorities and funding.  The RCAF understands that people are important and should be treated well.

The Army...


----------



## Good2Golf

…and RCAF Food Services Officers have different qualifications than CA Food Service Officers?


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Good. Let the world burn over a flu - at this point.
> 
> 
> Income tax incurred vs. what provinces use taxes for care. I rounded up. Don’t forget about the fact that the vast majority pay almost nothing, leaving people who actually pay taxes ( like you and me) to foot a bill many times higher. Those people who pay almost nothing, use a disproportionate amount of the service. Because free.


You aren’t paying 30k though.  The average is about 5k-7k per Canadian. 

Your math is way off.  Unless you make 240k a year or so. Then yes. 30k might be more accurate.


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:


> …and RCAF Food Services Officers have different qualifications than CA Food Service Officers?


You can meet the same caloric/nutritional requirements differently depending on funding available.

Base kitchens / messes now abide by the National Standard Menu (a mistake, in my opinion), but box lunches still have greater variation (particularly since some locations contract out production of box lunches, while others still produce them in house).


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jordan Petersen's take on our current courses of action:



> Jordan Peterson: Open the damn country back up, before Canadians wreck something we can’t fix​The country is growing more authoritarian in response to fear
> 
> Author of the article:
> Jordan Peterson,  Special to National Post
> Publishing date:
> Jan 10, 2022  • Last Updated 1 day ago  •  6 minute read











						Jordan Peterson: Open the damn country back up, before Canadians wreck something we can’t fix
					






					nationalpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org
				






> We are pushing the complex systems upon which we depend and which are miraculously effective and efficient in their often thankless operation to their breaking point. Can you think of anything more unlikely than the fact that we can get instant trouble-free access to our money online, using systems that are virtually graft- and corruption-free? Just imagine how much work, trust and efficiency was and is necessary to make that a reality. Can you think of anything more unlikely than fast, reliable and inexpensive jet air travel, nationally and internationally, in absolute safety? Or the constant provision of almost every consumer good imaginable, in the midst of plentiful, varied and inexpensive food?





> These systems are now shaking. We’re compromising them seriously with this unending and unpredictable stream of restrictions, lockdowns, regulations and curfews. We’re also undermining our entire monetary system, with the provision of unending largesse from government coffers, to ease the stress of the COVID response. We’re playing with fire. We’ve demolished two Christmas seasons in a row. Life is short. These are rare occasions. We’re stopping kids from attending school. We’re sowing mistrust in our institutions in a seriously dangerous manner. We’re frightening people to make them comply. We’re producing bureaucratic institutions that hypothetically hold public health in the highest regard, but subordinating all our properly political institutions to that end, because we lack leadership, and rely on ultimately unreliable opinion polls to govern broadscale political policy. *I’ve never seen breakdown in institutional trust on this scale before in my lifetime. *





> I was recently in Nashville, Tennessee. No lockdowns. No masks. No COVID regulations to speak of. People are going about their lives. Why can that be the case in Tennessee (and in other U.S. states, such as Florida) when there are curfews (curfews!) in Quebec, two years after the pandemic started, with a vaccination rate of nearly 80 per cent?When BC is still limiting social gatherings? When we are putting tremendous and unsustainable strain on all the complex systems that have served us so well, and made us so comfortable, in the midst of the troubles of our lives?
> 
> 
> The cure has become worse than the disease.
> 
> *I have spoken with senior advisors to provincial governments in Canada. There is no end game in sight. The idea that Canadian policy is or should be governed “by the science” is not only not true, it’s also not possible, as there is no simple pathway from the facts of science to the complexities of policy. We are deciding, by opinion poll, to live in fear, and to become increasingly authoritarian in response to that fear.* That’s a danger, too, and it’s increasingly real. *How long are we going to flail about, hiding behind our masks, afraid to send our children (who are in no danger more serious than risk of the flu) to school, charging university students full tuition for tenth-rate online “education,” pitting family member against family member over vaccine policy and, most seriously, compromising the great economic engine upon which our health also depends? *





> Until we decide not to.
> 
> *There are no risk-free paths forward. There is only one risk, or another. Pick your poison: that’s the choice life often offers. I am weary of living under the increasingly authoritarian dictates of a polity hyper-concerned with one risk, and oblivious to all others. And things are shaking around us.*
> 
> Enough, Canadians. Enough, Canadian politicos. Enough masks. Enough social gathering limitations. Enough restaurant closures. Enough undermining of social trust. Make the bloody vaccines available to those who want them. Quit using force to ensure compliance on the part of those who don’t. Some of the latter might be crazy but, by and large, they are no crazier than the rest of us.
> 
> Set a date. Open the damn country back up, before we wreck something we can’t fix.
> 
> Time for some courage.
> 
> Let’s live again.


----------



## lenaitch

Quirky said:


> For the $30,000 I pay every year for healthcare, I feel confident I can get better value for my dollar in a privatized system.


From the attached, per capita we pay about $8K/year for covered services(not counting any provincial premium like in Ontario).  I assume, perhaps wrongly, the 'per person' part means taxpayer. Another article said around $7K and two Fraser Institute articles that use the figure of $11K and $41K.  I imagine a lot depends on how numbers are crunched.






						Health spending | CIHI
					

Explore information on health spending, including reports, data tables and other key resources.




					www.cihi.ca
				




The OECD shows the US about 2x us, so if folks cherish a system that allows shopping for free market services, bargoons may not be in the offing.









						Health resources - Health spending - OECD Data
					

Find, compare and share OECD data by indicator.




					data.oecd.org


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Good. Let the world burn over a flu - at this point.
> 
> 
> Income tax incurred vs. what provinces use taxes for care. I rounded up. Don’t forget about the fact that the vast majority pay almost nothing, leaving people who actually pay taxes ( like you and me) to foot a bill many times higher. Those people who pay almost nothing, use a disproportionate amount of the service. Because free.


Your math is not aligned with reality.

Your province spends about 34.5% of its budget on healthcare.

Your province gets about 26.5% of its revenue from personal income taxes.

Therefore about 9.1% of income tax is spent on healthcare.

Unless you have significant non-military income, your marginal tax rate is 10%. Let’s say you’re a maxed out spec 2 Sgt, you’re paying less than 9k a year in provincial income tax. 

At the high end, again assuming you don’t have massive non-military income, you’re paying about $820 a year in income taxes that go to healthcare.


----------



## Quirky

I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy sugary products. I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy cigarettes. I pay taxes that pay for roads when I buy gasoline. Why should I pay for a system I don’t use as much as everyone else? The portion taken off my pay to keep this crippled system afloat hasn’t given anything back to me because of my choices. 

A true market driven healthcare system would see costs go down, service level go up, for 95% of the population its a win-win. I’m done subsidizing mooches which is why we need a hybrid model at a minimum for users to have some sense of financial burden and responsibility. The other 5% can keep calling 911 for constipation. People who are obsessed with a free healthcare system have never experienced anything else.


----------



## OldSolduer

Quirky said:


> People who are obsessed with a free healthcare system have never experienced anything else.


It ain't free as I am sure you are well aware.


----------



## Quirky

OldSolduer said:


> It ain't free as I am sure you are well aware.


No, it isn’t. It’s disproportionately being paid for by the top earners.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy sugary products. I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy cigarettes. I pay taxes that pay for roads when I buy gasoline. Why should I pay for a system I don’t use as much as everyone else? The portion taken off my pay to keep this crippled system afloat hasn’t given anything back to me because of my choices.
> 
> A true market driven healthcare system would see costs go down, service level go up, for 95% of the population its a win-win. I’m done subsidizing mooches which is why we need a hybrid model at a minimum for users to have some sense of financial burden and responsibility. The other 5% can keep calling 911 for constipation. People who are obsessed with a free healthcare system have never experienced anything else.


Ah yes.  Says someone whose salary is paid for by a public that likely sees no need to pay for your line of work.


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy sugary products. I don’t pay taxes if I don’t buy cigarettes. I pay taxes that pay for roads when I buy gasoline. Why should I pay for a system I don’t use as much as everyone else? The portion taken off my pay to keep this crippled system afloat hasn’t given anything back to me because of my choices.
> 
> A true market driven healthcare system would see costs go down, service level go up, for 95% of the population its a win-win. I’m done subsidizing mooches which is why we need a hybrid model at a minimum for users to have some sense of financial burden and responsibility. The other 5% can keep calling 911 for constipation. People who are obsessed with a free healthcare system have never experienced anything else.


You should move to America. Then every 6 months you can decide whether to donate to your coworker’s family member’s cancer (or other illness) treatment, because it turns out even good insurance leaves a lot of costs not covered.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> I’m done subsidizing mooches which is why we need a hybrid model at a minimum for users to have some sense of financial burden and responsibility.


I didn’t realize you had retired and emigrated, congratulations.

In all seriousness though- it’s all well and good to say that til it’s _you_ with cancer (it could already be growing now), _you_ who gets in a car accident, _you_ who contracts some communicable disease… Some healthcare expenditures are caused by poor choices, some by poor luck, and some by surviving long enough to reach the point where it’s inevitable. Or, if it’s not you- do you have a spouse making less money? Kids who don’t pay taxes? I’ll tell you, when my nephew had major health issues in his first few weeks of life and spent an extended stay in the NICU, including coding a couple times, I was bloody happy that I’ve been paying into the system that let that high level care happen.

Our system is far from perfect, but it’s decent. I’d take it in a heartbeat over the system in the US where medical bankruptcies are a thing, even knowing that with my employment I’d have excellent health insurance.

You’re probably paying less than a grand a year into the healthcare system. Odds are, as with all of us, that one day you will get your money’s worth out of it, either directly, or in the form of the system helping someone you care enough about that you’d pay whatever was needed to have them come home safe.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> . Why should I pay for a system I don’t use as much as everyone else? The portion taken off my pay to keep this crippled system afloat hasn’t given anything back to me because of my choices.


A micro little piece of gristle in your vein that you have no control over, could be the difference between you mooching off my tax dollars.

You promote "your choices" like someone who needs an 'attaboy',..........so heres an "attaboy" for ya'.   Hope this helps......


----------



## McG

lenaitch said:


> From the attached, per capita we pay about $8K/year for covered services(not counting any provincial premium like in Ontario). I assume, perhaps wrongly, the 'per person' part means taxpayer. Another article said around $7K and two Fraser Institute articles that use the figure of $11K and $41K. I imagine a lot depends on how numbers are crunched.


The Fraser Institute tends to do all its modelling base on a hypothetical individual or family of average income. Their narrative uses “average” to imply an analysis that is reflective of typical Canadians. In reality, the top 10 percenters earn enough to skew average above median. The typical Canadian (and the majority of Canadians) will earn less than average and shoulder a smaller tax burden than anything suggested by the Fraser Institute.


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> Our system is far from perfect, but it’s decent. I’d take it in a heartbeat over the system in the US where medical bankruptcies are a thing, even knowing that with my employment I’d have excellent health insurance.



Our system, along with Canadians’ emotional attachment to it, is why we are still no further ahead than two years ago and still in restrictions. I hope this brings changes however I doubt it will happen, Canadians are too attached to healthcare entitlement.


----------



## Altair

brihard said:


> Our system is far from perfect, but it’s decent. I’d take it in a heartbeat over the system in the US where medical bankruptcies are a thing, even knowing that with my employment I’d have excellent health insurance.


Yet it's so much worse than Europe, but we Canadians only compare it to the USA, a disservice to everyone. 

Yes, the American system is the worst. Canada is second worst. Yay?


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> Ah yes.  Says someone whose salary is paid for by a public that likely sees no need to pay for your line of work.


Let’s just shut down all government funded agencies.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> Let’s just shut down all government funded agencies.


How about no?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> How about no?



Please don't feed the trolls my good man.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Remius said:


> You aren’t paying 30k though.  The average is about 5k-7k per Canadian.
> 
> Your math is way off.  Unless you make 240k a year or so. Then yes. 30k might be more accurate.


A salary of 110k in Ontario will result in over 26k in taxes. Add in CPP and UI and your over 30k.
A salary of 240k will result in over 93k in taxes, CPP and UI taken from you. 
I like to look at this in this manner, someone making 240/yr basically pays (supports) the entire salary of an experienced teacher each and every year…..


----------



## Czech_pivo

Quirky said:


> No, it isn’t. It’s disproportionately being paid for by the top earners.


And when the rubber hits the road a great deal of them go to the US anyways to gets tests/procedures done in a timely manner - and paying extra for it.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Czech_pivo said:


> A salary of 110k in Ontario will result in over 26k in taxes. Add in CPP and UI and your over 30k.
> A salary of 240k will result in over 93k in taxes, CPP and UI taken from you.
> I like to look at this in this manner, someone making 240/yr basically pays (supports) the entire salary of an experienced teacher each and every year…..



That's cute.  So the teacher who pays 30K in taxes is funding who or what ? 

It's like when people tell me they pay my salary.  Well Karen, I also pay my own salary.  

Also your taxes go to support a whole swath of programs from education and medical to defence to garbage collection and Fire services ect ect.  And tons in between like the CBC.

Do we pay pay alot and receive too little ?  I think so.  But the target of this complaint should not be the lower or middle class folks.  It should be at our duly elected incompetent governments.


----------



## Quirky

More cancelled surgeries, on top of everything else, because unvaccinated pensioners who can't breath take priority.....









						Omicron is filling up Canada’s hospitals. Your health issue might not qualify, doctors say - National | Globalnews.ca
					

There's a risk that if Omicron COVID-19 cases keep trending upwards, emergency care — everything from a sprained wrist to a heart attack — could be impacted, doctors warn.




					globalnews.ca
				






> Five-year-old Rossy Hipkin was just one week away from a surgery that could have changed his life, according to his mom. That surgery might have, for the first time, allowed him to use his arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then came the email: his Nov. 25 operation was cancelled because of COVID-19, a doctor wrote.
> 
> “It was hard. We’d been building him up, … telling him, ‘You’re going to get muscles’ and ‘You’re going to be able to use your arms,’ and things like that,” said Corina Heppner, Rossy’s mom.
> 
> “And then we have to say, ‘Well, you’re not going to get your muscle.'”



The cure is worse than the disease. Good luck with any sort of cancer treatment in our free utopian system, unvaccinated old folk need help first.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Halifax Tar said:


> That's cute.  So the teacher who pays 30K in taxes is funding who or what ?
> 
> It's like when people tell me they pay my salary.  Well Karen, I also pay my own salary.
> 
> Also your taxes go to support a whole swath of programs from education and medical to defence to garbage collection and Fire services ect ect.  And tons in between like the CBC.
> 
> Do we pay pay alot and receive too little ?  I think so.  But the target of this complaint should not be the lower or middle class folks.  It should be at our duly elected incompetent governments.


Say whatever you want but that's the reality.  Approx 48 cents of every dollar in revenue the Gov't of Ont takes in goes to Health Care or Education spending. As for defence spending, it gets about 1.20$ for every 100$ in revenue at the Federal level.  I for one would easily triple that amount if I could take it from another government revenue bucket and put it in defence.
And that teacher, he/she/they team up with another teacher and together they pay the salary of a rookie OPP officer with their 24.5k in tax deductions.
The only reason I came back to Canada from working in Boston (where we settled after working in Michigan and Europe) was because we decided to have kids and we wanted them to attend French Immersion schools.  Otherwise if we didn't have kids we would have stayed in Boston and made alot more money and have alot more after tax salary as well. 
If you have a well paying job and decide not to have kids, moving to the US will put you so much farther ahead financially than staying in Canada and not having kids.  And picking a place like Boston, a 'blue' state that is progressive with a great transportation system and thinks/acts more like a Canadian city than pretty much any other in the US makes it that much easier to do.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Czech_pivo said:


> Say whatever you want but that's the reality.  Approx 48 cents of every dollar in revenue the Gov't of Ont takes in goes to Health Care or Education spending. As for defence spending, it gets about 1.20$ for every 100$ in revenue at the Federal level.  I for one would easily triple that amount if I could take it from another government revenue bucket and put it in defence.
> And that teacher, he/she/they team up with another teacher and together they pay the salary of a rookie OPP officer with their 24.5k in tax deductions.
> The only reason I came back to Canada from working in Boston (where we settled after working in Michigan and Europe) was because we decided to have kids and we wanted them to attend French Immersion schools.  Otherwise if we didn't have kids we would have stayed in Boston and made alot more money and have alot more after tax salary as well.
> If you have a well paying job and decide not to have kids, moving to the US will put you so much farther ahead financially than staying in Canada and not having kids.  And picking a place like Boston, a 'blue' state that is progressive with a great transportation system and thinks/acts more like a Canadian city than pretty much any other in the US makes it that much easier to do.



So you came back to Canada/Ontario because you wanted to use our/the education system and then you bemoan that we pay our teachers a good wage.  My friend perhaps you should have stayed in Boston.  

Can you explain this 24.5K tax deduction teachers get ?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Czech_pivo said:


> ... *If you have a well paying job* and *decide not to have kids *...


Those caveats alone affect a lot of people differently, so many Canadians' mileage can vary ...


----------



## Czech_pivo

Halifax Tar said:


> So you came back to Canada/Ontario because you wanted to use our/the education system and then you bemoan that we pay our teachers a good wage.  My friend perhaps you should have stayed in Boston.
> 
> Can you explain this 24.5K tax deduction teachers get ?


I never said once anything about bemoaning what we pay teachers, _the good ones deserve every penny_ and some of them even more.  Now, for those that don't cut the mustard, they _all_ need to be let go.  The teachers unions are too strong and protect the non-performers and all of them should be cut. Teachers who perform constantly above and beyond should be getting pay raises accordingly and in fact should be getting some sort of yearly bonus, and a significant one, not some measly 500$, something like a 5-10% of yearly salary. Those that don't, shouldn't get anything extra.

As for my 'using' our education, yup, I'm using it for all its worth, just like many many other Canadians do, my kids are learning a 2nd language (French) at zero extra cost and that will only benefit them in life going forward. Narrow-minded people call French Immersion 'elitist', I laugh at those people for they don't understand all the benefits that learning a 2nd language can give a person.  If Russian or Mandarin or Spanish or Dutch was offered in the same manner, we'd have signed our kids up into one of those programmes just as quickly. Its all about adding another tool in the toolbox. And for those that say not all kids can learn a second language, don't be so sure about that. Try going to a place like Holland or Denmark and try and find a native Dutch/Danish person who can't speak English, its near impossible.

We've recently had discussions about did we make the right decision to fully fund our kids RESP's since the day they were born or instead have spent that money on a private education for them here, with the much smaller class sizes, consistently more movidated, more engaged teachers and consistently more engaged fellow classmates and have the kids pay their university costs completely on their own.  Time will tell which was the better decision.

I look to use each and every tool in my toolbox that I've been given - every opportunity, every nuance, every angle to move forward, all the time keeping within the letter, intent of the law and within my own moral compass.  Since I've lived outside of Canada for a number of years, I know how to think/act like an immigrate does in Canada - use every tool available to get ahead.  I was the only boy in my graduating grade 8 class to successfully graduate from university and 1 of 4 boys from that same class who graduated from high school.  Does any of that make me less of a Canadian? 

I came from a one-income family where my father went to college in the evenings to get his education and worked all day to put food on the table. He moved from working on the line at Chrysler making cars, to an office job, leaving the union and becoming part of management, all because he knew that the opportunity was there, it was his if he was willing to take the chance.

As for staying in Boston, if the kids decide to go to university in Massachusetts where alot of my wife's family is located and then take jobs there, yup, we might just move back there because we can.  Never be afraid to know what's beyond the next hillrise, too many people in this world are and we all suffer because of it.

I don't have any argument with you. I completely respect your opinions as I'm sure is based on life experiences and such.  One side or the other is not necessarily 'right' or 'wrong' in a discussion. It's what works for you and you alone.  I'm glad that we've had this back and forth, learning about other opinions, life experiences is what all of this should be about.  I wish nothing but health, happiness and progress for you and your family.  Peace.


----------



## OldTanker

I've been getting my hair cut at the same barber shop for the past 12 years, since we moved here. There are two barbers, G and S. G is the owner, S, I assume, rents his seat. I am not privy to their business arrangement. For no particular reason, S has been my usual barber since he started there six years ago. They give good haircuts at reasonable, for here, rates. Years ago G posted a sign on the front door of the shop saying "If you are sick, don't come in. I can't afford to get ill and be off work." A reasonable note and one that led me to believe the shop was cognizant of good health and generally a safe place to go. This is important to me as I am immunocompromised. During COVID they only take appointments, again to avoid crowding in the waiting room. I had an appointment last week with S. He emailed me and let me know due to the big snowfall he couldn't come in and I would have to re-book, which I did. I went in yesterday and only G was there. "Where is S", I asked? "At home sick" says G. "Not COVID" says I. "Yup" says G. I said that was too bad. G said "Well, he was unvaccinated, so it was inevitable". Think that through a bit. Here is a barber, who is not vaccinated, cheerfully working inches from customers faces for the past six months ago, since we could get vaccinated. Had there not been the snow storm, he would have been cutting my hair while full of COVID. G advised me S was an anti-vaxxer. I just about crapped myself. Talk about feeling betrayed. Here, what I thought was a sanctuary of safety turned out to be a den of stupidity. I had a good chat with G about his lack of judgement ("You should have told him to stay home until he gets his shots or at the very least do rapid tests each day he comes to work"). To say I was livid was an understatement. As I said to G, S put all of our health at risk because of his opinions. G was reluctant to take any action against S as he is a "good friend". I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care. Needless to say I won't be using this barber again. Overreaction? I'm sure some of you out there would think so, but I think as a customer I deserve to trust that I am in a safe environment.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Czech_pivo said:


> I never said once anything about bemoaning what we pay teachers, _the good ones deserve every penny_ and some of them even more.  Now, for those that don't cut the mustard, they _all_ need to be let go.  The teachers unions are too strong and protect the non-performers and all of them should be cut. Teachers who perform constantly above and beyond should be getting pay raises accordingly and in fact should be getting some sort of yearly bonus, and a significant one, not some measly 500$, something like a 5-10% of yearly salary. Those that don't, shouldn't get anything extra.
> 
> I hear this argument a lot.  And there is validity to it.  But I will let you in a secret.  9 times out 10 the parents who complain about their kids teachers have shitty kids, because of their shitty parenting and wont take any responsibility.  Just an observation not an accusation.
> 
> Now how about that 24.5K tax deduction teachers get ?
> 
> As for my 'using' our education, yup, I'm using it for all its worth, just like many many other Canadians do, my kids are learning a 2nd language (French) at zero extra cost and that will only benefit them in life going forward. Narrow-minded people call French Immersion 'elitist', I laugh at those people for they don't understand all the benefits that learning a 2nd language can give a person.  If Russian or Mandarin or Spanish or Dutch was offered in the same manner, we'd have signed our kids up into one of those programmes just as quickly. Its all about adding another tool in the toolbox. And for those that say not all kids can learn a second language, don't be so sure about that. Try going to a place like Holland or Denmark and try and find a native Dutch/Danish person who can't speak English, its near impossible.
> 
> I am well traveled. I know how important languages are.  In fact I am on year long French course right now, my daughter is in French immersion and my wife is bi-lingual.
> 
> We've recently had discussions about did we make the right decision to fully fund our kids RESP's since the day they were born or instead have spent that money on a private education for them here, with the much smaller class sizes, consistently more movidated, more engaged teachers and consistently more engaged fellow classmates and have the kids pay their university costs completely on their own.  Time will tell which was the better decision.
> 
> I have a a few friends have opted out of the public systems.  Full disclosure my wife is VP in public education and we have argued about where my daughter should go school.  I firmly believe kids will get a better education in the private system.  I don't blame the public school teachers though.  I blame shitty parents who produced shitty kids who then cause disruption and interrupt learning, I blame special interests groups who have infested our education system and unfocused them from core education; and lastly I blame our Gov's for letting things get this way, which really means you and me as citizens.
> 
> I look to use each and every tool in my toolbox that I've been given - every opportunity, every nuance, every angle to move forward, all the time keeping within the letter, intent of the law and within my own moral compass.  Since I've lived outside of Canada for a number of years, I know how to think/act like an immigrate does in Canada - use every tool available to get ahead.  I was the only boy in my graduating grade 8 class to successfully graduate from university and 1 of 4 boys from that same class who graduated from high school.  Does any of that make me less of a Canadian?
> 
> Are you fishing for a compliment ? Or an atta boy ?
> 
> I came from a one-income family where my father went to college in the evenings to get his education and worked all day to put food on the table. He moved from working on the line at Chrysler making cars, to an office job, leaving the union and becoming part of management, all because he knew that the opportunity was there, it was his if he was willing to take the chance.
> 
> Well done to your father ?
> 
> As for staying in Boston, if the kids decide to go to university in Massachusetts where alot of my wife's family is located and then take jobs there, yup, we might just move back there because we can.  Never be afraid to know what's beyond the next hillrise, too many people in this world are and we all suffer because of it.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> I don't have any argument with you. I completely respect your opinions as I'm sure is based on life experiences and such.  One side or the other is not necessarily 'right' or 'wrong' in a discussion. It's what works for you and you alone.  I'm glad that we've had this back and forth, learning about other opinions, life experiences is what all of this should be about.  I wish nothing but health, happiness and progress for you and your family.  Peace.
> 
> My friend I am not my ideas and my ideas aren't me.  Some FFT for your if you're going to post something on a discussion forum, expect it to be challenged or otherwise discussed.


----------



## brihard

OldTanker said:


> I've been getting my hair cut at the same barber shop for the past 12 years, since we moved here. There are two barbers, G and S. G is the owner, S, I assume, rents his seat. I am not privy to their business arrangement. For no particular reason, S has been my usual barber since he started there six years ago. They give good haircuts at reasonable, for here, rates. Years ago G posted a sign on the front door of the shop saying "If you are sick, don't come in. I can't afford to get ill and be off work." A reasonable note and one that led me to believe the shop was cognizant of good health and generally a safe place to go. This is important to me as I am immunocompromised. During COVID they only take appointments, again to avoid crowding in the waiting room. I had an appointment last week with S. He emailed me and let me know due to the big snowfall he couldn't come in and I would have to re-book, which I did. I went in yesterday and only G was there. "Where is S", I asked? "At home sick" says G. "Not COVID" says I. "Yup" says G. I said that was too bad. G said "Well, he was unvaccinated, so it was inevitable". Think that through a bit. Here is a barber, who is not vaccinated, cheerfully working inches from customers faces for the past six months ago, since we could get vaccinated. Had there not been the snow storm, he would have been cutting my hair while full of COVID. G advised me S was an anti-vaxxer. I just about crapped myself. Talk about feeling betrayed. Here, what I thought was a sanctuary of safety turned out to be a den of stupidity. I had a good chat with G about his lack of judgement ("You should have told him to stay home until he gets his shots or at the very least do rapid tests each day he comes to work"). To say I was livid was an understatement. As I said to G, S put all of our health at risk because of his opinions. G was reluctant to take any action against S as he is a "good friend". I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care. Needless to say I won't be using this barber again. Overreaction? I'm sure some of you out there would think so, but I think as a customer I deserve to trust that I am in a safe environment.


You owe them nothing beyond paying them for services rendered, and as you say you’re immune compromised. Totally fair thing to be upset about and for you to make a stand on. That sucks.


----------



## Czech_pivo

I never said once anything about bemoaning what we pay teachers, _the good ones deserve every penny_ and some of them even more. Now, for those that don't cut the mustard, they _all_ need to be let go. The teachers unions are too strong and protect the non-performers and all of them should be cut. Teachers who perform constantly above and beyond should be getting pay raises accordingly and in fact should be getting some sort of yearly bonus, and a significant one, not some measly 500$, something like a 5-10% of yearly salary. Those that don't, shouldn't get anything extra.

I hear this argument a lot. And there is validity to it. But I will let you in a secret. 9 times out 10 the parents who complain about their teacher kids teachers have shitty kids, because of their shitty parenting and wont take any responsibility. Just an observation not an accusation.

Now how about that 24.5K tax deduction teachers get ?

'24.5 tax deduction' should have been '24.5 payroll tax deducted'
I too have many many friends who are teachers, VP's, Principals, SERTS, CYC's and SLP's in the public/catholic boards and yes, there are shitty parents/kids but there are many shitty teachers as well.  What incentive is there for a teacher to consistently go above and beyond for 25yrs when they get the exact pay rises as the rest of the teachers?  Pay the good ones what they deserve and you'll quickly see how many more 'average' teachers will be become great/good teachers.

As for my 'using' our education, yup, I'm using it for all its worth, just like many many other Canadians do, my kids are learning a 2nd language (French) at zero extra cost and that will only benefit them in life going forward. Narrow-minded people call French Immersion 'elitist', I laugh at those people for they don't understand all the benefits that learning a 2nd language can give a person. If Russian or Mandarin or Spanish or Dutch was offered in the same manner, we'd have signed our kids up into one of those programmes just as quickly. Its all about adding another tool in the toolbox. And for those that say not all kids can learn a second language, don't be so sure about that. Try going to a place like Holland or Denmark and try and find a native Dutch/Danish person who can't speak English, its near impossible.

I am well traveled. I know how important languages are. In fact I am on year long French course right now.

We've recently had discussions about did we make the right decision to fully fund our kids RESP's since the day they were born or instead have spent that money on a private education for them here, with the much smaller class sizes, consistently more movidated, more engaged teachers and consistently more engaged fellow classmates and have the kids pay their university costs completely on their own. Time will tell which was the better decision.

I have a a few friends have opted out of the public systems. Full disclosure my wife is VP in public education and we have argued about where my daughter should go school. I firmly believe kids will get a better education in the private system. I don't blame the public teachers though. I blame shitty parents who produced shitty kids, I blame special interests groups who have infested our education system and I blame our Gov's for letting things get this way.

Full disclosure my wife is a SLP in public education, having left working in adult rehab at a hospital for years.  I blame the same as you except i add in the Unions as they are part of the problem, not the solution.

I look to use each and every tool in my toolbox that I've been given - every opportunity, every nuance, every angle to move forward, all the time keeping within the letter, intent of the law and within my own moral compass. Since I've lived outside of Canada for a number of years, I know how to think/act like an immigrate does in Canada - use every tool available to get ahead. I was the only boy in my graduating grade 8 class to successfully graduate from university and 1 of 4 boys from that same class who graduated from high school. Does any of that make me less of a Canadian?

Are you fishing for a compliment ? Or an atta boy ?

Nope, just letting you know where I come from, no silver spoon here.

I came from a one-income family where my father went to college in the evenings to get his education and worked all day to put food on the table. He moved from working on the line at Chrysler making cars, to an office job, leaving the union and becoming part of management, all because he knew that the opportunity was there, it was his if he was willing to take the chance.

Well done to your father ?

Yes.

As for staying in Boston, if the kids decide to go to university in Massachusetts where alot of my wife's family is located and then take jobs there, yup, we might just move back there because we can. Never be afraid to know what's beyond the next hillrise, too many people in this world are and we all suffer because of it.

Ok.

I don't have any argument with you. I completely respect your opinions as I'm sure is based on life experiences and such. One side or the other is not necessarily 'right' or 'wrong' in a discussion. It's what works for you and you alone. I'm glad that we've had this back and forth, learning about other opinions, life experiences is what all of this should be about. I wish nothing but health, happiness and progress for you and your family. Peace.

My friend I am not my ideas and my ideas aren't me. Some FFT for your if you're going to post something on a discussion forum, expect it to be challenged or otherwise discussed.

Great, glad to hear.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Czech_pivo said:


> I never said once anything about bemoaning what we pay teachers, _the good ones deserve every penny_ and some of them even more. Now, for those that don't cut the mustard, they _all_ need to be let go. The teachers unions are too strong and protect the non-performers and all of them should be cut. Teachers who perform constantly above and beyond should be getting pay raises accordingly and in fact should be getting some sort of yearly bonus, and a significant one, not some measly 500$, something like a 5-10% of yearly salary. Those that don't, shouldn't get anything extra.
> 
> I hear this argument a lot. And there is validity to it. But I will let you in a secret. 9 times out 10 the parents who complain about their teacher kids teachers have shitty kids, because of their shitty parenting and wont take any responsibility. Just an observation not an accusation.
> 
> Now how about that 24.5K tax deduction teachers get ?
> 
> '24.5 tax deduction' should have been '24.5 payroll tax deducted'
> I too have many many friends who are teachers, VP's, Principals, SERTS, CYC's and SLP's in the public/catholic boards and yes, there are shitty parents/kids but there are many shitty teachers as well.  What incentive is there for a teacher to consistently go above and beyond for 25yrs when they get the exact pay rises as the rest of the teachers?  Pay the good ones what they deserve and you'll quickly see how many more 'average' teachers will be become great/good teachers.
> 
> As for my 'using' our education, yup, I'm using it for all its worth, just like many many other Canadians do, my kids are learning a 2nd language (French) at zero extra cost and that will only benefit them in life going forward. Narrow-minded people call French Immersion 'elitist', I laugh at those people for they don't understand all the benefits that learning a 2nd language can give a person. If Russian or Mandarin or Spanish or Dutch was offered in the same manner, we'd have signed our kids up into one of those programmes just as quickly. Its all about adding another tool in the toolbox. And for those that say not all kids can learn a second language, don't be so sure about that. Try going to a place like Holland or Denmark and try and find a native Dutch/Danish person who can't speak English, its near impossible.
> 
> I am well traveled. I know how important languages are. In fact I am on year long French course right now.
> 
> We've recently had discussions about did we make the right decision to fully fund our kids RESP's since the day they were born or instead have spent that money on a private education for them here, with the much smaller class sizes, consistently more movidated, more engaged teachers and consistently more engaged fellow classmates and have the kids pay their university costs completely on their own. Time will tell which was the better decision.
> 
> I have a a few friends have opted out of the public systems. Full disclosure my wife is VP in public education and we have argued about where my daughter should go school. I firmly believe kids will get a better education in the private system. I don't blame the public teachers though. I blame shitty parents who produced shitty kids, I blame special interests groups who have infested our education system and I blame our Gov's for letting things get this way.
> 
> Full disclosure my wife is a SLP in public education, having left working in adult rehab at a hospital for years.  I blame the same as you except i add in the Unions as they are part of the problem, not the solution.
> 
> I look to use each and every tool in my toolbox that I've been given - every opportunity, every nuance, every angle to move forward, all the time keeping within the letter, intent of the law and within my own moral compass. Since I've lived outside of Canada for a number of years, I know how to think/act like an immigrate does in Canada - use every tool available to get ahead. I was the only boy in my graduating grade 8 class to successfully graduate from university and 1 of 4 boys from that same class who graduated from high school. Does any of that make me less of a Canadian?
> 
> Are you fishing for a compliment ? Or an atta boy ?
> 
> Nope, just letting you know where I come from, no silver spoon here.
> 
> I came from a one-income family where my father went to college in the evenings to get his education and worked all day to put food on the table. He moved from working on the line at Chrysler making cars, to an office job, leaving the union and becoming part of management, all because he knew that the opportunity was there, it was his if he was willing to take the chance.
> 
> Well done to your father ?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> As for staying in Boston, if the kids decide to go to university in Massachusetts where alot of my wife's family is located and then take jobs there, yup, we might just move back there because we can. Never be afraid to know what's beyond the next hillrise, too many people in this world are and we all suffer because of it.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> I don't have any argument with you. I completely respect your opinions as I'm sure is based on life experiences and such. One side or the other is not necessarily 'right' or 'wrong' in a discussion. It's what works for you and you alone. I'm glad that we've had this back and forth, learning about other opinions, life experiences is what all of this should be about. I wish nothing but health, happiness and progress for you and your family. Peace.
> 
> My friend I am not my ideas and my ideas aren't me. Some FFT for your if you're going to post something on a discussion forum, expect it to be challenged or otherwise discussed.
> 
> Great, glad to hear.



Please don't use blue, that was very hard to read. 

I think we've almost derailed this enough.  But One last time: 

Please explain '24.5 payroll tax deducted'


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Czech_pivo said:


> Say whatever you want but that's the reality.  Approx 48 cents of every dollar in revenue the Gov't of Ont takes in goes to Health Care or Education spending. As for defence spending, it gets about 1.20$ for every 100$ in revenue at the Federal level.  I for one would easily triple that amount if I could take it from another government revenue bucket and put it in defence.
> And that teacher, he/she/they team up with another teacher and together they pay the salary of a rookie OPP officer with their 24.5k in tax deductions.
> The only reason I came back to Canada from working in Boston (where we settled after working in Michigan and Europe) was because we decided to have kids and we wanted them to attend French Immersion schools.  Otherwise if we didn't have kids we would have stayed in Boston and made alot more money and have alot more after tax salary as well.
> If you have a well paying job and decide not to have kids, moving to the US will put you so much farther ahead financially than staying in Canada and not having kids.  And picking a place like Boston, a 'blue' state that is progressive with a great transportation system and thinks/acts more like a Canadian city than pretty much any other in the US makes it that much easier to do.


It's funny you mention this.  I have a number of high achieving friends I went to School with.  All of the highest achievers I know have left Canada and moved to the good ole US of A.  Brain drain is a real thing.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Halifax Tar said:


> Please don't use blue, that was very hard to read.
> 
> I think we've almost derailed this enough.  But One last time:
> 
> Please explain '24.5 payroll tax deducted'


A salary of 93k in Ontario will result in total deductions of 24.6k.


----------



## winds_13

OldTanker said:


> I've been getting my hair cut at the same barber shop for the past 12 years, since we moved here. There are two barbers, G and S. G is the owner, S, I assume, rents his seat. I am not privy to their business arrangement. For no particular reason, S has been my usual barber since he started there six years ago. They give good haircuts at reasonable, for here, rates. Years ago G posted a sign on the front door of the shop saying "If you are sick, don't come in. I can't afford to get ill and be off work." A reasonable note and one that led me to believe the shop was cognizant of good health and generally a safe place to go. This is important to me as I am immunocompromised. During COVID they only take appointments, again to avoid crowding in the waiting room. I had an appointment last week with S. He emailed me and let me know due to the big snowfall he couldn't come in and I would have to re-book, which I did. I went in yesterday and only G was there. "Where is S", I asked? "At home sick" says G. "Not COVID" says I. "Yup" says G. I said that was too bad. G said "Well, he was unvaccinated, so it was inevitable". Think that through a bit. Here is a barber, who is not vaccinated, cheerfully working inches from customers faces for the past six months ago, since we could get vaccinated. Had there not been the snow storm, he would have been cutting my hair while full of COVID. G advised me S was an anti-vaxxer. I just about crapped myself. Talk about feeling betrayed. Here, what I thought was a sanctuary of safety turned out to be a den of stupidity. I had a good chat with G about his lack of judgement ("You should have told him to stay home until he gets his shots or at the very least do rapid tests each day he comes to work"). To say I was livid was an understatement. As I said to G, S put all of our health at risk because of his opinions. G was reluctant to take any action against S as he is a "good friend". I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care. Needless to say I won't be using this barber again. Overreaction? I'm sure some of you out there would think so, but I think as a customer I deserve to trust that I am in a safe environment.


Old Tanker, how exactly was this unvaccinated barber threatening your health? They restricted customers by taking appointments only and requested that people feeling ill not enter the premises. When he became sick, he did not come in to work.

Are you assuming that you have a higher chance of catching COVID-19 from an unvaccinated person than from a vaccinated one? If you live in Ontario, the current case rate is actually highest amongst fully vaccinated individuals. The difference in catching and spreading between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals was becoming negligible even before the appearance of the Omicron variant.





__





						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## Fishbone Jones

winds_13 said:


> Old Tanker, how exactly was this unvaccinated barber threatening your health? They restricted customers by taking appointments only and requested that people feeling ill not enter the premises. When he became sick, he did not come in to work.
> 
> Are you assuming that you have a higher chance of catching COVID-19 from an unvaccinated person than from a vaccinated one? If you live in Ontario, the current case rate is actually highest amongst fully vaccinated individuals. The difference in catching and spreading between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals was becoming negligible even before the appearance of the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


According to the graph, a cursory view appears to show that the best place to be is in the partially (1-2 shots) vaccinated group. Or am I reading this wrong?


----------



## QV

The old narrative was this vaccine would make you immune and put an end to the pandemic.

We now know the best case scenario for the vaccines are they reduce the chance of a bad outcome for the old and immunocompromised individual. The barber not having his vax won't change how another vaccinated person reacts, both can spread it.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> "We may see deaths from Omicron but I suspect that the deaths that we're seeing now are still from Delta," Walensky said, adding that it will take time to understand how Omicron l impacts coronavirus death totals.











						U.S. COVID deaths rising but likely due to Delta, not Omicron, says CDC chief
					

COVID-19 hospitalizations in the United States have increased by about 33% and deaths are up by about 40% from a week earlier, the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said on Wednesday.




					www.reuters.com
				












						Omicron less severe than Delta but still poses danger for unvaccinated: WHO
					

The highly infectious Omicron coronavirus variant causes less severe disease than the Delta strain but it remains a "dangerous virus", particularly for those who are unvaccinated, the head of the World Health Organization (WHO) said on Wednesday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Quirky

OldTanker said:


> I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care.



So what's the solution then for everyone else, to have private businesses declare employee vaccination status for anyone at high risk?


----------



## OldSolduer

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's funny you mention this.  I have a number of high achieving friends I went to School with.  All of the highest achievers I know have left Canada and moved to the good ole US of A.  Brain drain is a real thing.


It has been forever. After the Arrow was cancelled many of our big brains went south - see the intakes on the Arrow and the F 15. In my tiny non scientest pea brain I can see the similarity.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldTanker said:


> I've been getting my hair cut at the same barber shop for the past 12 years, since we moved here. There are two barbers, G and S. G is the owner, S, I assume, rents his seat. I am not privy to their business arrangement. For no particular reason, S has been my usual barber since he started there six years ago. They give good haircuts at reasonable, for here, rates. Years ago G posted a sign on the front door of the shop saying "If you are sick, don't come in. I can't afford to get ill and be off work." A reasonable note and one that led me to believe the shop was cognizant of good health and generally a safe place to go. This is important to me as I am immunocompromised. During COVID they only take appointments, again to avoid crowding in the waiting room. I had an appointment last week with S. He emailed me and let me know due to the big snowfall he couldn't come in and I would have to re-book, which I did. I went in yesterday and only G was there. "Where is S", I asked? "At home sick" says G. "Not COVID" says I. "Yup" says G. I said that was too bad. G said "Well, he was unvaccinated, so it was inevitable". Think that through a bit. Here is a barber, who is not vaccinated, cheerfully working inches from customers faces for the past six months ago, since we could get vaccinated. Had there not been the snow storm, he would have been cutting my hair while full of COVID. G advised me S was an anti-vaxxer. I just about crapped myself. Talk about feeling betrayed. Here, what I thought was a sanctuary of safety turned out to be a den of stupidity. I had a good chat with G about his lack of judgement ("You should have told him to stay home until he gets his shots or at the very least do rapid tests each day he comes to work"). To say I was livid was an understatement. As I said to G, S put all of our health at risk because of his opinions. G was reluctant to take any action against S as he is a "good friend". I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care. Needless to say I won't be using this barber again. Overreaction? I'm sure some of you out there would think so, but I think as a customer I deserve to trust that I am in a safe environment.



You can sue his ass if you pop up COVID positive:

Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you​You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness

I am receiving many client enquiries concerning the right to sue bosses, fellow workers and even health-care workers, if they contract COVID as a result of a person being unvaccinated.

The answer is that you can sue anyone for negligence who passes COVID on to you — _if_ they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness and either knew or should have known they had or might have had the illness and had not taken appropriate precautions.










						Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you
					

You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness




					financialpost.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:


> You can sue his ass if you pop up COVID positive:
> 
> Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you​You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness
> 
> I am receiving many client enquiries concerning the right to sue bosses, fellow workers and even health-care workers, if they contract COVID as a result of a person being unvaccinated.
> 
> The answer is that you can sue anyone for negligence who passes COVID on to you — _if_ they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness and either knew or should have known they had or might have had the illness and had not taken appropriate precautions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you
> 
> 
> You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com


One would think a person would have to prove the infection was a result of that contact and not from the gazillion of covid molecules floating around in the air? All the preventatives, so far, appear to have proven pretty useless.


----------



## winds_13

daftandbarmy said:


> You can sue his ass if you pop up COVID positive:
> 
> Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you​You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness
> 
> I am receiving many client enquiries concerning the right to sue bosses, fellow workers and even health-care workers, if they contract COVID as a result of a person being unvaccinated.
> 
> The answer is that you can sue anyone for negligence who passes COVID on to you — _if_ they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness and either knew or should have known they had or might have had the illness and had not taken appropriate precautions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howard Levitt: Yes, you can sue someone for negligence if they pass COVID on to you
> 
> 
> You will need to prove they were reckless in not properly protecting others from the illness
> 
> 
> 
> 
> financialpost.com



Can you provide any examples where a judge found someone to have been acting wreckless on the grounds that they were not vaccinated and someone near them caught COVID?

How would simply being unvaccinated be considered recklessly endangering others if it does not represent any meaningful difference to the rate of virus transmission?

In the scenario at question, the barber took appropriate precautions (stayed home from work) once they suspected that they may be infected. They also had restricted their business to appointmnets only, reducing the amount of persons in the eatablishment at a time, and assumedly wore a mask and dissenfexted surfaces.

I could argue that those who attended large holiday gatherings, after knowledge of the wildly out of control Omicron wave, were acting wrecklessly. The premier of Quebec said that it was okay for vaccinated persons to gather in groups of up to 20... now they are experiencing severe disruptions to their healthcare system.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> More cancelled surgeries, on top of everything else, because unvaccinated pensioners who can't breath take priority.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron is filling up Canada’s hospitals. Your health issue might not qualify, doctors say - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> There's a risk that if Omicron COVID-19 cases keep trending upwards, emergency care — everything from a sprained wrist to a heart attack — could be impacted, doctors warn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cure is worse than the disease. Good luck with any sort of cancer treatment in our free utopian system, unvaccinated old folk need help first.


Oh, its been made very clear that people care about those who cannot get their treatments done because the unvaccinated are clogging up the hospitals, but its also clear that they don't care enough to actually do anything about it. 

Like when you see those people walking over someone in need of assistance while saying that's horrible, I wish there was something I could do about it.


----------



## Altair

CityNews
					






					toronto.citynews.ca
				






> Just over 60 per cent of Canadians recently polled are on board with the implementation of fines for the unvaccinated, such as a healthcare tax, similar to the one Québec Premier François Legault announced on Tuesday.
> 
> Legault said that adults in Québec who refuse to be vaccinated against COVID-19 would be forced to pay a “significant” financial penalty. The fine would be the first of its kind in Canada and apply to unvaccinated residents who don’t have a medical exemption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new poll published on Wednesday by Maru Public Opinion, in which just over 1,500 people were surveyed, indicates that most Canadians agree the unvaccinated should be penalized in some form.




It's coming folks, its coming!


----------



## Quirky

Those polls are largely useless.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> One would think a person would have to prove the infection was a result of that contact and not from the gazillion of covid molecules floating around in the air? All the preventatives, so far, appear to have proven pretty useless.



In civil tort law, it would need to be established on a balance of probabilities; I.e., more likely than not (50% +1). Granted, not the easiest thing in the world, but a far cry from the criminal threshold of beyond reasonable doubt.



winds_13 said:


> Can you provide any examples where a judge found someone to have been acting wreckless on the grounds that they were not vaccinated and someone near them caught COVID?
> 
> How would simply being unvaccinated be considered recklessly endangering others if it does not represent any meaningful difference to the rate of virus transmission?
> 
> In the scenario at question, the barber took appropriate precautions (stayed home from work) once they suspected that they may be infected. They also had restricted their business to appointmnets only, reducing the amount of persons in the eatablishment at a time, and assumedly wore a mask and dissenfexted surfaces.
> 
> I could argue that those who attended large holiday gatherings, after knowledge of the wildly out of control Omicron wave, were acting wrecklessly. The premier of Quebec said that it was okay for vaccinated persons to gather in groups of up to 20... now they are experiencing severe disruptions to their healthcare system.



COVID is too new on the scene and has been too disruptive to the courts for it to be likely that such a lawsuit would have made it through court. I’ve been sued before, and it’s a long slow process. There have been both civil and criminal actions for other communicable diseases though.


----------



## Altair

Quirky said:


> Those polls are largely useless.


The more polls like this the politicians see, the more they will, or the political opposition will, try to get that support behind them. 

What what politician is going to turn down additional revenue that the people are largely supportive of?


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:


> Box lunches at Air Force Bases are orders of magnitude better than those from Army Bases.


I can’t imagine the quality of Army box lunches…. I found mouse droppings in my sandwich twice from two different RCAF bases.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

SupersonicMax said:


> I can’t imagine the quality of Army box lunches…. I found mouse droppings in my sandwich twice from two different RCAF bases.


And they say Pilots only stay in Hotels 🤣


----------



## SupersonicMax

Humphrey Bogart said:


> And they say Pilots only stay in Hotels 🤣


We’re literally given shit sandwiches!


----------



## FJAG

brihard said:


> In civil tort law, it would need to be established on a balance of probabilities; I.e., more likely than not (50% +1). Granted, not the easiest thing in the world, but a far cry from the criminal threshold of beyond reasonable doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> COVID is too new on the scene and has been too disruptive to the courts for it to be likely that such a lawsuit would have made it through court. I’ve been sued before, and it’s a long slow process. There have been both civil and criminal actions for other communicable diseases though.


I'm not aware of any lawsuits re Covid, but there has been much case law on negligence in respect to communicable diseases. Some, such as with with AIDS, even go to the criminal law standard - that, however, is direct infection with knowledge not a case of negligent infection.

In negligence law you basically look at factual causation (i.e. did the exposure being complained of actually cause the infection) and proximate cause (was there a legal situation by which the wrongdoer had a duty of care to the plaintiff, did not take care and should have reasonably foreseen that his neglect would cause injury to the plaintiff - that's a quick meatball definition and usually a half term course in law school with several hundred hours of reading all condensed into a short phrase - please don't come back at me that it's not precise enough) You need to prove both on a balance of probabilities.

Just for the fun of it here's a little work-generating article from pre-Covid days from California discussing measles, unvaccinated folks and potential liability. Like any discussion of the law - it's not the last nor the only word on the topic.

🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cruisin' for a bruisein', indeed:


CDC director says Covid cases on cruise ships surged 30-fold in two weeks​

Cruise ships have seen a 30-fold increase in positive Covid-19 cases in the past two weeks, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said during a Senate hearing Tuesday.
The stark increase in cases comes after the agency warned against cruise ship travel, regardless of passengers’ vaccination status.
Ships operating in U.S. waters reported about 5,000 Covid cases from Dec. 15 through Dec. 29. Walensky didn’t provide updated figures on Tuesday.










						CDC director says Covid cases on cruise ships surged 30-fold in two weeks
					

The CDC last month warned against all cruise ship travel.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## brihard

Why the hell anyone would go on a cruise right now is beyond me. Basically all the odds are stacked against you.


----------



## RangerRay

brihard said:


> Why the hell anyone would go on a cruise right now is beyond me. Basically all the odds are stacked against you.


They were floating Petri dishes before COVID. Won’t catch me on one anytime soon!


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> Why the hell anyone would go on a cruise right now is beyond me. Basically all the odds are stacked against you.


Given the average age of your typical boat-goer is north of 50 and statistically more likely to end up needing care in hospital, it goes to show you just how seriously people are taking this Covid crap. On the flip side, if you are vaccinated, who cares about cases at this point, everyone will eventually be exposed. Only way to prevent it is to bunker yourself in your house and avoid all social contact.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> Given the average age of your typical boat-goer is north of 50 and statistically more likely to end up needing care in hospital, it goes to show you just how seriously people are taking this Covid crap. On the flip side, if you are vaccinated, who cares about cases at this point, everyone will eventually be exposed. Only way to prevent it is to bunker yourself in your house and avoid all social contact.


Yeah, I mean more generally the likelihood that the whole thing will manage to be a miserable experience. Even if someone isn’t sick themselves, we’ve seen what happens when ships get COVID outbreaks. Not much of a vacation…


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> Yeah, I mean more generally the likelihood that the whole thing will manage to be a miserable experience. Even if someone isn’t sick themselves, we’ve seen what happens when ships get COVID outbreaks. Not much of a vacation…


Having known folks who were part of the ‘Norwalk (Flu) Party’ on board a cruise ship and endured 48-hours of ‘trumpeting from both ends’ I was convinced I would never go near a cruise…ever.


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:


> Having known folks who were part of the ‘Norwalk (Flu) Party’ on board a cruise ship and endured 48-hours of ‘trumpeting from both ends’ I was convinced I would never go near a cruise…ever.


Mmmm… Norwalk. Don’t just shit yourself. Shit everyone around you.


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> Mmmm… Norwalk. Don’t just shit yourself. Shit everyone around you.


Yup, when shitting the bed is the least of your problems. 👍🏼


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> Yeah, I mean more generally the likelihood that the whole thing will manage to be a miserable experience. Even if someone isn’t sick themselves, we’ve seen what happens when ships get COVID outbreaks. Not much of a vacation…


Boats in general - no thank you. Stuck on the 'Pollution Of the Sea' petri dish with thousands of other people doesn't sound like much of a vacation.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bloody dirty sailors


----------



## OceanBonfire

> Doctors say obesity and diabetes do appear to put people at higher risk of severe disease, but the biggest risk factor is those who have skipped getting their vaccine.
> 
> ...
> 
> “In our units we're seeing about two thirds of our patients are relatively young, unvaccinated and are showing up with severe disease,” Ferguson said.
> 
> It’s frustrating for health teams.
> 
> ...
> 
> Those who end up hospitalized tend to fit two profiles: unvaccinated people with little to no comorbidities, and those with some protection from vaccination but also other risk factors that caused them to be more at risk.
> 
> ...
> 
> Their capacity is being stretched, he said, noting that they had around 35 people on ECMO in total in the last week, “probably one of the largest in the world at any one time on ECMO.”
> 
> Omicron being so prevalent in the community is putting an extra strain on a workforce already thinned by the pressure of previous waves.
> 
> “For the first time, we're having to deal with this surge of patients with a significant portion of our staff being at home, […] with relatively mild COVID but not wanting to come in and pass it on,” Ferguson said.
> 
> ...
> 
> Hospital officials say they are doing their best to prepare for a rise in critically ill patients, highlighting that their ICU's would be 50 or even 70 per cent less busy treating COVID if more people would get their vaccinations.
> 
> Granton said that if everyone in Canada was vaccinated, their ICU would be “a lot quieter.”
> 
> “We wouldn't see it near the number of people that we're seeing now.”











						Inside an ICU where 70 per cent of COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated
					

This is where the Omicron wave is starting to show its worst side: inside the ICU at Toronto General, which is filling up with critically ill COVID-19 patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Given the average age of your typical boat-goer is north of 50 and statistically more likely to end up needing care in hospital, it goes to show you just how seriously people are taking this Covid crap. On the flip side, if you are vaccinated, who cares about cases at this point, everyone will eventually be exposed. Only way to prevent it is to bunker yourself in your house and avoid all social contact.


When I was with the USCG we basically had a semi-weekly appointment with one particular cruise ship that always seemed to have someone with a broken hip. Dudes were pros by the time I left, they knew exactly how close to Hatterass they needed to get so the 60 could reach, they already had the ship pointing in the right direction…. Now I’m way off topic.


----------



## QV

'What is going on?': Covid rates lowest in unvaccinated as Omicron spread 'ignores the rules'
					

DOUBLE-JABBED Scots are now more likely to be admitted to hospital with Covid than the unvaccinated amid an increase in elderly people falling ill…




					www.heraldscotland.com


----------



## kev994

QV said:


> 'What is going on?': Covid rates lowest in unvaccinated as Omicron spread 'ignores the rules'
> 
> 
> DOUBLE-JABBED Scots are now more likely to be admitted to hospital with Covid than the unvaccinated amid an increase in elderly people falling ill…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.heraldscotland.com


I hit a paywall. Do they offer a hypothesis?


----------



## brihard

Very real possibility that it's a matter of elderly people with two shots but no booster getting sick, and being at greater medical risk that younger unvaccinated people. If Scotland's anything like us, they would have near total uptake of vaccinations in the elderly, however that's still an at risk population that has a much higher rate of comorbidities. Your mid-40s antivaxer still has decent odds on a case by case basis. It would be interesting to see age-cohorted data. I suspect the elderly are most risk-conscious, and that very few of them are unvaccinated.


----------



## kev994

brihard said:


> Very real possibility that it's a matter of elderly people with two shots but no booster getting sick, and being at greater medical risk that younger unvaccinated people. If Scotland's anything like us, they would have near total uptake of vaccinations in the elderly, however that's still an at risk population that has a much higher rate of comorbidities. Your mid-40s antivaxer still has decent odds on a case by case basis. It would be interesting to see age-cohorted data. I suspect the elderly are most risk-conscious, and that very few of them are unvaccinated.


That falls within my pre-conceived notions 😁


----------



## QV

FRIGHTENING: WHO Joins EU and Changes Direction -- Suddenly Warns Against Taking Continued COVID Booster Shots
					

On Tuesday European regulators warned that the COVID booster shots could adversely affect the immune system. This was a huge admission for European officials after pushing booster shots just weeks earlier.  What happened? Then later on Tuesday the World Health Organization joined the EU and also...




					www.thegatewaypundit.com
				




I wonder if this is true. Heres another.









						Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response
					

European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




So if this is the case… the article from Scotland is troubling.


----------



## Jarnhamar

QV said:


> FRIGHTENING: WHO Joins EU and Changes Direction -- Suddenly Warns Against Taking Continued COVID Booster Shots
> 
> 
> On Tuesday European regulators warned that the COVID booster shots could adversely affect the immune system. This was a huge admission for European officials after pushing booster shots just weeks earlier.  What happened? Then later on Tuesday the World Health Organization joined the EU and also...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thegatewaypundit.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if this is true. Heres another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frequent Boosters Spur Warning on Immune Response
> 
> 
> European Union regulators warned that frequent Covid-19 booster shots could adversely affect the immune response and may not be feasible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bloomberg.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if this is the case… the article from Scotland is troubling.


I'm not one to really criticize websites but man clicking on that link I'm surprised I didn't see a headline about a bigfoot sighting.


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm not one to really criticize websites but man clicking on that link I'm surprised I didn't see a headline about a bigfoot sighting.


Gateway Pundit is garbage. It’s not worth clicking, and generally it tells you a bit about anyone who does give it credence.









						The Gateway Pundit
					

QUESTIONABLE SOURCE A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no




					mediabiasfactcheck.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I checked the WHO.int website.

There was nothing, at all, about a change in direction on vaccinations or boosters.


----------



## kev994

Back in December they were admonishing first world countries for using boosters when many parts of the world hadn’t been given a first dose. Maybe they’re taking that out of context?
Edit: Link


----------



## mariomike

OldTanker said:


> I've been getting my hair cut at the same barber shop for the past 12 years, since we moved here. There are two barbers, G and S. G is the owner, S, I assume, rents his seat. I am not privy to their business arrangement. For no particular reason, S has been my usual barber since he started there six years ago. They give good haircuts at reasonable, for here, rates. Years ago G posted a sign on the front door of the shop saying "If you are sick, don't come in. I can't afford to get ill and be off work." A reasonable note and one that led me to believe the shop was cognizant of good health and generally a safe place to go. This is important to me as I am immunocompromised. During COVID they only take appointments, again to avoid crowding in the waiting room. I had an appointment last week with S. He emailed me and let me know due to the big snowfall he couldn't come in and I would have to re-book, which I did. I went in yesterday and only G was there. "Where is S", I asked? "At home sick" says G. "Not COVID" says I. "Yup" says G. I said that was too bad. G said "Well, he was unvaccinated, so it was inevitable". Think that through a bit. Here is a barber, who is not vaccinated, cheerfully working inches from customers faces for the past six months ago, since we could get vaccinated. Had there not been the snow storm, he would have been cutting my hair while full of COVID. G advised me S was an anti-vaxxer. I just about crapped myself. Talk about feeling betrayed. Here, what I thought was a sanctuary of safety turned out to be a den of stupidity. I had a good chat with G about his lack of judgement ("You should have told him to stay home until he gets his shots or at the very least do rapid tests each day he comes to work"). To say I was livid was an understatement. As I said to G, S put all of our health at risk because of his opinions. G was reluctant to take any action against S as he is a "good friend". I don't give a rat's ass what opinion a person holds, but when they threaten my health, I do care. Needless to say I won't be using this barber again. Overreaction? I'm sure some of you out there would think so, but I think as a customer I deserve to trust that I am in a safe environment.



Sorry to hear that, OldTanker.

I think the unspoken agreement at the barbershop I go to is, "Don't ask. Don't tell."


----------



## QV

Here are a few more on the topic. News sites with big ad money from Pfizer probably wouldn’t report this, just a guess. 









						EU regulators, WHO call for end to COVID boosters, citing evidence strategy is failing - LifeSite
					

EU drug regulators, World Health Organization experts, and the former chairman of the UK’s COVID task force all cited mounting evidence mRNA COVID boosters aren’t working and the strategy should be dropped.




					www.lifesitenews.com
				












						EU regulator skeptical on need for additional COVID booster shot
					

As Israel administers fourth dose of vaccine to the elderly and immunosuppressed, EMA official says move likely ineffective




					www.timesofisrael.com
				












						EU regulators caution that too many booster shots could weaken immune systems
					

Boosters are "not something that we can think should be repeated constantly," said Marco Cavaleri of the European Medicines Agency




					justthenews.com
				



The head of biological health threats and vaccines strategy at the European Medicines Agency, Marco Cavaleri, said boosters are "not something that we can think should be repeated constantly."
"We need to think about how we can transition from the current pandemic setting to a more endemic setting," he said, matching the recent comments of WHO envoy Dr. David Nabarro.


----------



## kev994

QV said:


> Here are a few more on the topic. News sites with big ad money from Pfizer probably wouldn’t report this, just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU regulators, WHO call for end to COVID boosters, citing evidence strategy is failing - LifeSite
> 
> 
> EU drug regulators, World Health Organization experts, and the former chairman of the UK’s COVID task force all cited mounting evidence mRNA COVID boosters aren’t working and the strategy should be dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lifesitenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU regulator skeptical on need for additional COVID booster shot
> 
> 
> As Israel administers fourth dose of vaccine to the elderly and immunosuppressed, EMA official says move likely ineffective
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU regulators caution that too many booster shots could weaken immune systems
> 
> 
> Boosters are "not something that we can think should be repeated constantly," said Marco Cavaleri of the European Medicines Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> justthenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The head of biological health threats and vaccines strategy at the European Medicines Agency, Marco Cavaleri, said boosters are "not something that we can think should be repeated constantly."
> "We need to think about how we can transition from the current pandemic setting to a more endemic setting," he said, matching the recent comments of WHO envoy Dr. David Nabarro.


But they’re not saying to stop boosters, they’re  saying that the boosters need to be adjusted for the newer strain. What you’re implying is not what the articles say.


----------



## PMedMoe

And Lifesite News and Just The News are about as credible as The Gateway Pundit.


----------



## YZT580

kev994 said:


> But they’re not saying to stop boosters, they’re  saying that the boosters need to be adjusted for the newer strain. What you’re implying is not what the articles say.


There is no way for the lab techs to keep up with the changes in strains.  The logistics of identifying, analysing, determining the correct response, developing then testing the results on a sample population, changing the assembly line and then marketing the end result takes longer than the expected duration of the strain.  And every injection comes with a risk: there is no avoiding it.  So there is is no point in pursuing antidotes.  Covid is a relatively benign virus by all statistics.  Most casualties had other ailments.  It killed off the most vulnerable in the first few months because of our lackadaisical approach to health care.  Now its only real threat is in numbers to be treated and not virulence.  So get our lives back from the government and the health departments and return to living.


----------



## Booter

The flu shot works that way. They predict trends and choose which strains they are going to protect and some years they have missed the mark.

So if the same people that do those things tell me that they can reliably create a booster shot I am going to trust that.

And a relatively high amount of flu shots have side effects and can even cause death.


----------



## brihard

Booter said:


> The flu shot works that way. They predict trends and choose which strains they are going to protect and some years they have missed the mark.
> 
> So if the same people that do those things tell me that they can reliably create a booster shot I am going to trust that.
> 
> And a relatively high amount of flu shots have side effects and can even cause death.


The COVID RNA vaccines have had significantly better efficacy than the flu shot tends to. The amount of research this has caused to be put into RNA vaccines is going to be a game changer in immunology post-COVID once they have time to really work at other applications.


----------



## QV

Is anyone here tracking the Project Veritas leak of the DARPA documents?


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> That’s like 1%. Really, that indicates a win. ~99% uptake is great.



As far as I can tell, the impact the vaccine mandate had on emergency response times in our town from 31 Oct. to now has been neglible. YMMV

The fire department fired 20 unvaxxed. About half of 1% of the dept.

The unvaxxed had been out of service since late October, and there are always plenty of qualified applicants.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> As far as I can tell, the impact the vaccine mandate had on emergency response times in our town from 31 Oct. to now has been neglible. YMMV
> 
> The fire department fired 20 unvaxxed. About half of 1% of the dept.
> 
> The unvaxxed had been out of service since late October, and there are always plenty of qualified applicants.


That’s good to hear.  Plenty of qualified and willing applicants can fill the vacancies.


----------



## PMedMoe

QV said:


> Is anyone here tracking the Project Veritas leak of the DARPA documents?



Ooooh, yet _another_ credible group. Not.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> As far as I can tell, the impact the vaccine mandate had on emergency response times in our town from 31 Oct. to now has been neglible. YMMV
> 
> The fire department fired 20 unvaxxed. About half of 1% of the dept.
> 
> The unvaxxed had been out of service since late October, and there are always plenty of qualified applicants.



Mariomike, while it is one thing to consider whether or not the employer can manage the loss of staff from a vaccine mandate, the question remains on what supposed benefit it is supposed to produce. In what way does it help protect staff and clients when transmission rates are highest amongst those that are fully vaccinated?






						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca
				




There may not have been interruptions in emergency response where you live but in Ottawa a total of 53 paramedics tested positive following a holiday party before Christmas. About 130 paramedic staff were in attendance, or about 1/5 of the services total staff. This is after they had laid off their unvaccinated staff. They were operating within provincial regulations but were arguably being reckless, taking significant risk by holding a large work gathering knowing full well that spread of the Omicron variant was well underway. Maybe they thought the lack of unvaccinated attendees would protect them (the party was at a restaurant, which in Ontario means that unvaccinated individuals could not legally attend)?









						COVID-19 tally from paramedics' restaurant party hits 53
					

The number of Ottawa paramedic staff testing positive for COVID-19 after an off-duty restaurant party climbed to 53 on Tuesday.




					ottawacitizen.com
				




Then, a few weeks later, the Ottawa paramedic service was at "level zero" and calling on ambulances to be dispatched from Gananoque, almost 2 hours away. The manning shortage was not the result of the vaccine mandate, but rather from vaccinated paramedics becoming infected.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/level-zero-paramedic-gananoque-call-1.6307660
		


It is one thing to suggest that the emergency services can shoulder the loss of staff due to vaccine mandates, it is a completely different thing to suggest that such mandates have had any meaningful, positive impact on protecting staff and clients from infection. Supposedly the unvaccinated staff are all selfish and uncaring of others safety and the vaccinated staff, that attended this 130-person work event, are all shining examples of duty before self during a pandemic.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> That’s good to hear.  Plenty of qualified and willing applicants can fill the vacancies.


Yes it was.

As for the Ottawa paramedics who went to a bar, they have already been well scolded on here.

Of all the others who went to bars that night across Ontario, they seem to be the only ones singled out for scolding.


----------



## winds_13

Mariomike, you never addressed my question about what good has supposedly come of the workplace vaccine mandates. You've previously compared such mandates to "seatbelt mandates", and suggested anyone that is not pro-mandate is an undesirable "anti-vaxxer". If the workplace mandates were intended to protect staff and clients from infection, exactly how much risk was reduced? Does the data suggest that the current rates of infection are lower than if those staff members had not been let go?

Yes, the Ottawa paramedics have been scolded on here, so have the minority of Canadians who remain unvaccinated... repeatedly, and with furor.


----------



## brihard

winds_13 said:


> Mariomike, you never addressed my question about what good has supposedly come of the workplace vaccine mandates. You've previously compared such mandates to "seatbelt mandates", and suggested anyone that is not pro-mandate is an undesirable "anti-vaxxer". If the workplace mandates were intended to protect staff and clients from infection, exactly how much risk was reduced? Does the data suggest that the current rates of infection are lower than if those staff members had not been let go?
> 
> Yes, the Ottawa paramedics have been scolded on here, so have the minority of Canadians who remain unvaccinated... repeatedly, and with furor.


There is compelling evidence that the vaccine also significantly reduces transmissibility, even if it doesn’t eliminate it completely. This would suggest that it would be a tangible contributor to occupational health and safety.



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> As for the Ottawa paramedics who went to a bar, they have already been well scolded on here.


And there hasn't been a covid19 outbreak among the paramedics since. Mission accomplished.


----------



## winds_13

brihard said:


> There is compelling evidence that the vaccine also significantly reduces transmissibility, even if it doesn’t eliminate it completely. This would suggest that it would be a tangible contributor to occupational health and safety.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2106757



Brihard, there is also evidence from the same period, in Britain, that the reduced rates of transmissibility experienced after the vaccine significantly waned after only a few months post vaccination... to the point of becoming negligible.









						Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
					

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...



					www.thelancet.com
				












						Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home
					

Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.



					www.bbc.com
				




After reviewing all of the data at the time, the U.K. decided that they were not going forward with their planned vaccine passport system.

As linked in one of my previous posts today, transmissibility rates are now highest amongst vaccinated persons, at least in Ontario (according to the governments own data).


----------



## brihard

winds_13 said:


> Brihard, there is also evidence from the same period, in Britain, that the reduced rates of transmissibility experienced after the vaccine significantly waned after only a few months post vaccination... to the point of becoming negligible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study
> 
> 
> Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home
> 
> 
> Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After reviewing all of the data at the time, the U.K. decided that they were not going forward with their planned vaccine passport system.
> 
> As linked in one of my previous posts today, transmissibility rates are now highest amongst vaccinated persons, at least in Ontario (according to the governments own data).


I’m not in a position to do an extensive literature review, but I’m also not making any of this policy. I’m just a worker bee who follows it. I did a cursory check and found that there does seem to be some evidence.

Given how brutally limited our province’s testing is, I’m immediately skeptical of any data coming out of Ontario that purports to offer answers to that, due to massive sample bias. I’m much more inclined to look at what’s coming out of reputable medical journals.


----------



## mariomike

For people incessently complaining about employment mandates,



brihard said:


> You have the full ability to consent to the vaccine or not. There will simply be employment consequences if you don’t. You’re free to seek other work elsewhere.


----------



## suffolkowner

brihard said:


> The COVID RNA vaccines have had significantly better efficacy than the flu shot tends to. The amount of research this has caused to be put into RNA vaccines is going to be a game changer in immunology post-COVID once they have time to really work at other applications.


I think people may have some seriously high expectations of what the vaccination can achieve.

From my readings 

vaccine efficacy is less for the variants than for original strain
vaccine efficacy decreases over relatively short time but still highly effective against hospitalizations or severe impacts
circulating antibodies decrease relatively rapidly in vaccinated versus naturally infected 
circulated antibodies decrease relatively rapidly versus other vaccinations eg MMR


----------



## brihard

suffolkowner said:


> I think people may have some seriously high expectations of what the vaccination can achieve.
> 
> From my readings
> 
> vaccine efficacy is less for the variants than for original strain
> vaccine efficacy decreases over relatively short time but still highly effective against hospitalizations or severe impacts
> circulating antibodies decrease relatively rapidly in vaccinated versus naturally infected
> circulated antibodies decrease relatively rapidly versus other vaccinations eg MMR


Sure. Successful vaccines for a coronavirus are still groundbreaking, though. That’s new. Point I’m making is the shitload of money and research going into RNA for COVID is going to probably pay dividends elsewhere.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> And there hasn't been a covid19 outbreak among the paramedics since. Mission accomplished.



Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.


----------



## MilEME09

brihard said:


> Sure. Successful vaccines for a coronavirus are still groundbreaking, though. That’s new. Point I’m making is the shitload of money and research going into RNA for COVID is going to probably pay dividends elsewhere.


they just announced stage one trials for a drug that will target the virus they believe causes MS using mRNA tech, and thats huge.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.



Thanks Gawd... or our population would be shrinking at an even faster rate


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Self-righteous indignation on the internet doesn't keep people out of bars.


That criticism of their common sense really got to you eh?


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> For people incessently complaining about employment mandates,


Yes, simply employment consequences... and the ability to travel freely, to fully participate in society, and to potentially be subject to punitive taxation... oh, and don't forget about the public scorn. One is free to seek work elsewhere but the federal government recommends all employers to not hire unvaccinated individuals, and questions whether such people should be "tolerated"... it's a rather simple matter indeed.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well, if you're not willing to do your part to help society, why does society owe you anything??


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> That criticism of their common sense really got to you eh?



The self-righteous indignation of incessantly criticizing one particular group for going to a bar the same night others across Ontario did the same thing doesnt get to me, because I consider the source.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> The self-righteous indignation of incessantly criticizing one particular group for going to a bar the same night others across Ontario did the same thing doesnt get to me, because I consider the source.


I guess some of us just love hearing about and discussing paramedics all the time. 
But you bring up a great point. How crazy is it to read a news article, post it on a message forum where all kinds of stories get discussed, and discuss it. Super weird.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Thanks Gawd... or our population would be shrinking at an even faster rate



Sounds like a good joke.

"So, a coronavirus walks into a bar..."


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> How crazy is it to read a news article, post it on a message forum where all kinds of stories get discussed, and discuss it.



Maybe not constantly make such a fuss over Ontarioans going to a bar.

Years ago, of the 850 members of our service, 436 of us were put in a 10-day quarantine.

The job got done. Same as I am sure it is now in Ottawa.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Maybe not constantly make such a fuss over Ontarioans going to a bar.


Speaking of constantly, someone keeps bringing it up 



mariomike said:


> Years ago, of the 850 members of our service, 436 of us were put in a 10-day quarantine.


That's some Christmas party.


----------



## suffolkowner

China reports 5 new human cases of H5N6 bird flu
					

Five more people in mainland China have tested positive for H5N6 bird flu, leaving two dead and three others seriously ill, officials say. It adds to a growing number of human cases which has led to urgent calls for increased surveillance. The Hong Kong Health Department said in a statement that...




					bnonews.com
				




Not sure how credible this source is but just what we need is an H5N6 influenza outbreak to add to the party


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Just as people are talking that the current dilemma is waning. It couldn't be better timing than if it were planned. Quick, close the border to the ChiComs and ban all flights from there. That should take their mind off screwing the world again.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:


> That's some Christmas party.



I wish it was.

Four ended up in ICU. They survived, but did not recover enough to return to operations.

Of the 224 people infected in the city, 38 died.

But, keep going on about people in Ontario going to bars at Christmas.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Interesting but it hasn't been peer-reviewed yet:









						Early research suggests COVID-19 virus loses 90 per cent of its infectivity after 20 minutes in air
					

A new pre-print study has offered some preliminary evidence suggesting the virus that causes COVID-19 loses most of its infectiousness after 20 minutes in air.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

Classy...


'This behaviour is deplorable': People paid individuals experiencing homelessness in Vancouver to get vaccinated for them​ 
Vancouver Coastal Health says people paid vulnerable individuals to visit vaccine clinics for them to obtain a BC Vaccine Card.

People paid vulnerable individuals in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside to be vaccinated on their behalf using their information to obtain B.C. vaccine cards, according to Vancouver Coastal Health (VCH). 

The regional health authority confirmed with _Vancouver Is Awesome_ Friday (Jan. 14) that it is aware of instances of people attempting to obtain BC vaccine cards fraudulently by paying vulnerable individuals in the DTES to be vaccinated while falsely using their name and information.  









						'This behaviour is deplorable': People paid individuals experiencing homelessness in Vancouver to get vaccinated for them
					

Vancouver Coastal Health says people paid vulnerable individuals to visit vaccine clinics for them to obtain a BC Vaccine Card.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Classy...
> 
> 
> 'This behaviour is deplorable': People paid individuals experiencing homelessness in Vancouver to get vaccinated for them​
> Vancouver Coastal Health says people paid vulnerable individuals to visit vaccine clinics for them to obtain a BC Vaccine Card.
> 
> People paid vulnerable individuals in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside to be vaccinated on their behalf using their information to obtain B.C. vaccine cards, according to Vancouver Coastal Health (VCH).
> 
> The regional health authority confirmed with _Vancouver Is Awesome_ Friday (Jan. 14) that it is aware of instances of people attempting to obtain BC vaccine cards fraudulently by paying vulnerable individuals in the DTES to be vaccinated while falsely using their name and information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'This behaviour is deplorable': People paid individuals experiencing homelessness in Vancouver to get vaccinated for them
> 
> 
> Vancouver Coastal Health says people paid vulnerable individuals to visit vaccine clinics for them to obtain a BC Vaccine Card.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


On the other hand, the homeless folks should have near super hero levels of immunity…


----------



## Good2Golf

SeaKingTacco said:


> On the other hand, the homeless folks should have near super hero levels of immunity…


Imagine the irony if ‘vaccinated’ BCers subsequently get ill from COVID…


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> But, keep going on about people in Ontario going to bars at Christmas.


You mean over a hundred of people who deal hands on with the public (including the elderly) squeezing in a Christmas party at a restaurant knowing full well strict gathering restrictions were coming down the pipe due to a very transmissible variant emerging. 

I don't believe I'm the one who keeps going on about it and bringing it up but okay..


----------



## ModlrMike

SeaKingTacco said:


> On the other hand, the homeless folks should have near super hero levels of immunity…


In my experience, they are relatively indestructible, but only for a short period of time. In Wpg, the average lifespan of someone who becomes homeless is reduced to 8 years from the point they start living on the streets.


----------



## MilEME09

ModlrMike said:


> In my experience, they are relatively indestructible, but only for a short period of time. In Wpg, the average lifespan of someone who becomes homeless is reduced to 8 years from the point they start living on the streets.


If I recall Medicine Hat became the first city to eliminate homelessness, perhaps we need to take their strategy nationally


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Then, a few weeks later, the Ottawa paramedic service was at "level zero" and calling on ambulances to be dispatched from Gananoque, almost 2 hours away. The manning shortage was not the result of the vaccine mandate, but rather from vaccinated paramedics becoming infected.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/level-zero-paramedic-gananoque-call-1.6307660



From your link, "Level Zero" was "in the late hours of Dec. 30".



> The situation known as "level zero" has been a problem in Ottawa for many years.





> In 2019, the service was at Level Zero 329 times in eight months.





> In a Dec. 22 memo, Poirier had said the isolation of staff had minimal impacts on ambulance service.





> In a Dec. 28 follow-up, he said many had returned to work and contingencies, such as having staff work overtime, were no longer needed.





Jarnhamar said:


> You mean over a hundred of people who deal hands on with the public (including the elderly) squeezing in a Christmas party at a restaurant knowing full well strict gathering restrictions were coming down the pipe due to a very transmissible variant emerging.


----------



## Jarnhamar

You definitely missed your calling as a sniper Mariomike 😉


----------



## Brad Sallows

>individuals experiencing homelessness​Good that no-one "is" anything any more.  Instead, we are all "experiencers of something".  I, for example, am an individual experiencing whiteness, maleness, and curmudgeon-ness.


----------



## kev994

Brad Sallows said:


> >individuals experiencing homelessness​Good that no-one "is" anything any more.  Instead, we are all "experiencers of something".  I, for example, am an individual experiencing whiteness, maleness, and curmudgeon-ness.


I think you actually need to ‘identify’ with your gender.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I think you actually need to ‘identify’ with your gender.



The rules are too complex.  I give up.  I'm just going to live as if it's the '70s.


----------



## PuckChaser

Some articles to show how social media, mainstream media and the government has normalized turning Canadians against each other.

How COVID-19 made Canada comfortable with marginalizing 3.7 million people


> It’s anti-vaxxers who have come to dominate the Canadian image of the unvaccinated, particularly after a spate of autumn protests in which anti-vaccination campaigners blocked access at hospitals across the country. It’s this group that Trudeau was referencing when he told a Quebec talk show in September that Canada should decide “do we tolerate these people? _”_
> 
> But the limited data on Canada’s 3.7 million unvaccinated points to a group that is disproportionately composed of Canadians who are low income, recent immigrants and ethnic minorities. A July survey by the Black Opportunity Fund, for instance, found a 20-point gap in vaccination rates between black Canadians and the public at large.
> 
> “What worries me in the short term is we’re getting the green light from our political leaders to make some very harsh judgements about people even if we don’t have all the facts,” said Bowman.
> 
> Similarly demographic patterns are emerging in the United States. Last month, the U.S. Census Bureau concluded that the average unvaccinated American had a higher-than-average likelihood of being non-white, poor and disabled. Many seemed to be foregoing the vaccine for the simple reason that they had “difficulty seeing, hearing, remembering or walking or climbing stairs.”



Colin Farrelly: Divisive mandatory vaccines further erode responsible governance in Canada



> At one extreme of the arm-chair policy spectrum were those who championed a “hard lockdown” position, inspired by the “COVID-zero” countries like China, New Zealand and Australia. When the lockdown measures implemented in the first wave of 2020 did not eliminate SARS-CoV-2 this camp blamed “The idiots that don’t wear face masks and social distance!” This camp then favoured the strategy of doubling down on their hard lockdown stance.  “Lock down sooner and harder!” these proponents would declare. But it turned out that even being an island or authoritarian regime simply delayed the spread of the virus rather than eliminate it. By the latter part of the second year of the pandemic it was clear to most that the “COVID-zero” line of reasoning had been demonstrably refuted. SARS-CoV-2 is here to stay, we have no choice but to learn how to live with it. The cognitive dissonance this causes many is very hard for them to resolve.


----------



## Good2Golf

That’s assuming Canada had a real semblance of responsible governance…I mean…AFTER 1968…


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> The rules are too complex.  I give up.  I'm just going to live as if it's the '70s.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Cruisin' for a bruisein', indeed:
> 
> 
> CDC director says Covid cases on cruise ships surged 30-fold in two weeks​
> 
> Cruise ships have seen a 30-fold increase in positive Covid-19 cases in the past two weeks, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said during a Senate hearing Tuesday.
> The stark increase in cases comes after the agency warned against cruise ship travel, regardless of passengers’ vaccination status.
> Ships operating in U.S. waters reported about 5,000 Covid cases from Dec. 15 through Dec. 29. Walensky didn’t provide updated figures on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CDC director says Covid cases on cruise ships surged 30-fold in two weeks
> 
> 
> The CDC last month warned against all cruise ship travel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com



My wife was booked with her diving group on Norwegian Lines out of New Orleans first week of Feb. Thankfully they cancelled it.



Brad Sallows said:


> The rules are too complex.  I give up.  I'm just going to live as if it's the '70s.



You're about 20 years ahead of me.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> My wife was booked with her diving group on Norwegian Lines out of New Orleans first week of Feb. Thankfully they cancelled it.
> 
> 
> 
> You're about 20 years ahead of me.



I know a guy that was going diving in Tonga this winter. I guess that's off too


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> I know a guy that was going diving in Tonga this winter. I guess that's off too



She went diving today here in Lake Ontario. Tobermory is a far as she will be diving this winter. 

I guess as far as Covid goes, winter activities such as diving ( as long as your regulator doesn't freeze into free-flow, as her buddy's did today ) is one of the safer.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> She went diving today here in Lake Ontario. Tobermory is a far as she will be diving this winter.
> 
> I guess as far as Covid goes, winter activities such as diving ( as long as your regulator doesn't freeze into free-flow, as her buddy's did today ) is one of the safer.



It's the best time for diving on the West Coast.

No plankton bloom so the viz is much better, and fewer drunken pleasure cruisers


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> It's the best time for diving on the West Coast.
> 
> No plankton bloom so the viz is much better, and fewer drunken pleasure cruisers



Personally, I believe in progress and Canadian plumbing. When I feel the need of water, I take a shower.


----------



## OceanBonfire

OceanBonfire said:


> Inside an ICU where 70 per cent of COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated
> 
> 
> This is where the Omicron wave is starting to show its worst side: inside the ICU at Toronto General, which is filling up with critically ill COVID-19 patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca



Another look at another hospital:



> As of Thursday, Bluewater Health said 75 per cent of the COVID-19 patients in the hospital's ICU were unvaccinated. On some recent days, Haddad said, the proportion was as high as 100 per cent.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/sarnia-bluewater-health-hospital-covid-patients-1.6315681
		


And peer-reviewed in the Journal of the American Medical Association:



> In total, 462 rapid test results, or 0.05 per cent of the 900,000 results, resulted in false positives.











						Canadian study reveals rate of false positives from rapid antigen tests
					

As provinces rely more heavily on rapid antigen tests as part of their strategy to curb the spread of COVID-19, there have been concerns over the possibility of false positive results. A University of Toronto study has produced new data shedding light on the likelihood of such events.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

COVID - the gift that keeps on giving....


Expect more worrisome variants after Omicron, scientists say​

Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that Omicron's whirlwind advance practically ensures it won't be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.

Every infection provides a chance for the virus to mutate, and Omicron has an edge over its predecessors: It spreads way faster despite emerging on a planet with a stronger patchwork of immunity from vaccines and prior illness.

That means more people in whom the virus can further evolve. Experts don't know what the next variants will look like or how they might shape the pandemic, but they say there's no guarantee the sequels of omicron will cause milder illness or that existing vaccines will work against them.

They urge wider vaccination now, while today's shots still work.









						Expect more worrisome variants after Omicron, scientists say
					

Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that Omicron's whirlwind advance practically ensures it won't be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> COVID - the gift that keeps on giving....
> 
> 
> Expect more worrisome variants after Omicron, scientists say​
> 
> Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that Omicron's whirlwind advance practically ensures it won't be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.
> 
> Every infection provides a chance for the virus to mutate, and Omicron has an edge over its predecessors: It spreads way faster despite emerging on a planet with a stronger patchwork of immunity from vaccines and prior illness.
> 
> That means more people in whom the virus can further evolve. Experts don't know what the next variants will look like or how they might shape the pandemic, but they say there's no guarantee the sequels of omicron will cause milder illness or that existing vaccines will work against them.
> 
> They urge wider vaccination now, while today's shots still work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Expect more worrisome variants after Omicron, scientists say
> 
> 
> Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that Omicron's whirlwind advance practically ensures it won't be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

> “Mutations are more common in severe and long-lasting COVID infections,” Martinez said. “Therefore, because vaccines prevent severe infections they can also prevent proliferation of new variants.”
> 
> All while hopefully creating a circle of protection around those too young to be vaccinated.
> 
> “Those would actually protect the people who were unvaccinated because the virus can't get at them because they're surrounded by a whole group of people, in which, infection, and or transmission after being infected is remarkably reduced by the vaccine,” Evans said.











						Omicron's spread is affecting even the youngest members of families, as scientists urge vaccination
					

Omicron’s spread has been so extensive that there are few families that haven’t been touched by it at all -- and for some families, that means worrying about their children.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Infants more likely to be hospitalized from Omicron: Watch for these symptoms - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Among younger age groups, Omicron cases in infants aged under one year are almost seven times more likely to lead to hospitalizations, according to Dr. Tam.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Fishbone Jones

No one cares. Covid fatigue is fast coming to a peak. Israel, the world leader in covid research, has decided to stop quarantines, vax passports and a whole bunch of other restrictions. Basically, they are returning to normal and have decided to live with it. Meanwhile, our current government, with the help of the media, is trying to keep Canadians on the edge of panic, distracted so we don't notice the bullshit being fed to us. Trudeau has blown up Parliament and is telling parents to leave the room while he talks, alone, with our kids. That's just creepy and fundamentally wrong on any scale. He is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates. He has so much of his agenda left to accomplish, he needs to keep his thumb on us. Like the Great Oz, he's showing us doom and gloom in the front, but it's a whole other game behind the curtain.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Expect more worrisome variants after Omicron, scientists say​
This panic porn hand-wringing things-that-might-happen sh!t has to end.


----------



## OceanBonfire

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/health-canada-pfizer-therapeutic-1.6317505
		










						Paxlovid, Pfizer’s oral COVID-19 pill, approved in Canada - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Pfizer began a rolling submission with Health Canada in December for Paxlovid, which it said is designed to block a key enzyme needed for the COVID-19 virus to multiply.




					globalnews.ca
				












						First at-home COVID-19 antiviral prescription drug authorized by Health Canada
					

Health Canada has authorized the use of Pfizer's COVID-19 antiviral treatment Paxlovid, the first oral and at-home prescription medication to be cleared for use in this country.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				









						Health Canada authorizes PAXLOVIDTM for patients with mild to moderate COVID-19 at high risk of developing serious disease - Canada.ca
					

Health Canada has authorized the combination of two antiviral drugs, nirmatrelvir and ritonavir (brand name PAXLOVIDTM), to treat adults with mild to moderate COVID-19 who are at high risk of progressing to serious disease, including hospitalization or death. PAXLOVIDTM is the first COVID-19...




					www.canada.ca


----------



## Kat Stevens

OceanBonfire said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/health-canada-pfizer-therapeutic-1.6317505
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paxlovid, Pfizer’s oral COVID-19 pill, approved in Canada - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Pfizer began a rolling submission with Health Canada in December for Paxlovid, which it said is designed to block a key enzyme needed for the COVID-19 virus to multiply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First at-home COVID-19 antiviral prescription drug authorized by Health Canada
> 
> 
> Health Canada has authorized the use of Pfizer's COVID-19 antiviral treatment Paxlovid, the first oral and at-home prescription medication to be cleared for use in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Health Canada authorizes PAXLOVIDTM for patients with mild to moderate COVID-19 at high risk of developing serious disease - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Health Canada has authorized the combination of two antiviral drugs, nirmatrelvir and ritonavir (brand name PAXLOVIDTM), to treat adults with mild to moderate COVID-19 who are at high risk of progressing to serious disease, including hospitalization or death. PAXLOVIDTM is the first COVID-19...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca


I look forward to my Witcher mutations kicking in after my fifth booster/vaccine/pill/suppository/whatever.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> No one cares. Covid fatigue is fast coming to a peak. Israel, the world leader in covid research, has decided to stop quarantines, vax passports and a whole bunch of other restrictions. Basically, they are returning to normal and have decided to live with it. Meanwhile, our current government, with the help of the media, is trying to keep Canadians on the edge of panic, distracted so we don't notice the bullshit being fed to us. Trudeau has blown up Parliament and is telling parents to leave the room while he talks, alone, with our kids. That's just creepy and fundamentally wrong on any scale. He is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates. He has so much of his agenda left to accomplish, he needs to keep his thumb on us. Like the Great Oz, he's showing us doom and gloom in the front, but it's a whole other game behind the curtain.


No one thinks he's more of a (Insert whatever word here) then I do, but I'm curious how he's managing to destroy the American supply chain also.....he must be more important then we thought.  
And I keep looking for this panic you talk about and yet I don't see it.  I just see responsible folks trying to do thier part for society.  I'm looking forward so much to playing hockey next Thursday, but if I can't i can't, no need for Chicken Littles and the sky is falling stuff.


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> No one cares. Covid fatigue is fast coming to a peak. Israel, the world leader in covid research, has decided to stop quarantines, vax passports and a whole bunch of other restrictions. Basically, they are returning to normal and have decided to live with it. Meanwhile, our current government, with the help of the media, is trying to keep Canadians on the edge of panic, distracted so we don't notice the bullshit being fed to us. Trudeau has blown up Parliament and is telling parents to leave the room while he talks, alone, with our kids. That's just creepy and fundamentally wrong on any scale. He is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates. He has so much of his agenda left to accomplish, he needs to keep his thumb on us. Like the Great Oz, he's showing us doom and gloom in the front, but it's a whole other game behind the curtain.








But do tell; what do you think this "agenda" is??  (I may regret this...)


----------



## OceanBonfire

PMedMoe said:


>



Unsurprising when right-wing conspiracy theorists just constantly lie and provide unreliable sources. Simple search shows that Israel did *NOT* went back to normal and still has mandatory isolation and requirement of negative test:









						Israel cuts COVID-19 isolation to five days
					

Israel's Health Ministry said on Monday it would shorten the mandatory isolation period for those who test positive for COVID-19 to five days from seven days, following an initial cut last week, provided they are asymptomatic.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

OceanBonfire said:


> Unsurprising when right-wing conspiracy theorists just constantly lie and provide unreliable sources. Simple search shows that Israel did *NOT* went back to normal and still has mandatory isolation:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israel cuts COVID-19 isolation to five days
> 
> 
> Israel's Health Ministry said on Monday it would shorten the mandatory isolation period for those who test positive for COVID-19 to five days from seven days, following an initial cut last week, provided they are asymptomatic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Stop it with your political kife...it makes your valid opinion look stupid.

Try just "conspiracy theorists", I'm extremely "right wing" (by the stupid standards morons use) and all I got out of your post was Yada Yada Yada...


----------



## winds_13

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> No one thinks he's more of a (Insert whatever word here) then I do, but I'm curious how he's managing to destroy the American supply chain also.....he must be more important then we thought.
> And I keep looking for this panic you talk about and yet I don't see it.  I just see responsible folks trying to do thier part for society.  I'm looking forward so much to playing hockey next Thursday, but if I can't i can't, no need for Chicken Littles and the sky is falling stuff.



Fishbone Jones said that "(Trudeau) is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates." Assumedly, he is referring to the new vaccination requirement, to enter Canada, placed on the trucking industry as of Saturday. It is likely to cause further strain on the already understaffed trucking industry, and lead to further supply chain disruptions in Canada... particularly if truckers start to protest.

He never said anything about destroying the "American supply chain", although it will undoubtedly have some negative impacts on Canadian exports to the U.S.









						FIRST READING: Probably not the best time for Canada to pick a fight with truckers
					

Good news! Omicron may be peaking!




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

"the supply chain"


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> No one cares. Covid fatigue is fast coming to a peak. Israel, the world leader in covid research, has decided to stop quarantines, vax passports and a whole bunch of other restrictions. Basically, they are returning to normal and have decided to live with it. Meanwhile, our current government, with the help of the media, is trying to keep Canadians on the edge of panic, distracted so we don't notice the bullshit being fed to us. Trudeau has blown up Parliament and is telling parents to leave the room while he talks, alone, with our kids. That's just creepy and fundamentally wrong on any scale. He is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates. He has so much of his agenda left to accomplish, he needs to keep his thumb on us. Like the Great Oz, he's showing us doom and gloom in the front, but it's a whole other game behind the curtain.


I’m curious where you got this info about Israel.  

They have a green pass required to go to certain venues.

Details here:  Green Pass FAQ

They are actually recommending a 4th dose.









						Vaccines
					

Getting vaccinated to limit infections: The vaccines for coronavirus are effective and safe. All HMOs have them available.




					corona.health.gov.il


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:


> But do tell; what do you think this "agenda" is??  (I may regret this...)


This is the thing no one ever explains.  And to what end?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Mea culpa. The Israeli document I was referencing was dated.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

winds_13 said:


> Fishbone Jones said that "(Trudeau) is destroying the supply chain, with unneeded restrictions and mandates." Assumedly, he is referring to the new vaccination requirement, to enter Canada, placed on the trucking industry as of Saturday. It is likely to cause further strain on the already understaffed trucking industry, and lead to further supply chain disruptions in Canada... particularly if truckers start to protest.
> 
> He never said anything about destroying the "American supply chain", although it will undoubtedly have some negative impacts on Canadian exports to the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FIRST READING: Probably not the best time for Canada to pick a fight with truckers
> 
> 
> Good news! Omicron may be peaking!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


And protest they are. If you have travelling to do, plan ahead. The roads coming from east and west will be carrying convoys of trucks that are due to descend on Ottawa and Parliament Hill on the 23rd of January. There are waypoints all along the routes to collect and organize packets to join the main effort of hundreds and hundreds of trucks that have started their journey already. I wouldn't be surprised if most routes in and out of Ottawa will become completely plugged up and doing a good job of immobilizing transportation in the NCR.


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> This is the thing no one ever explains.  And to what end?



And apparently, _I'm_ trolling.   Guess someone can't answer the question.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> And protest they are. If you have travelling to do, plan ahead. The roads coming from east and west will be carrying convoys of trucks that are due to descend on Ottawa and Parliament Hill on the 23rd of January. There are waypoints all along the routes to collect and organize packets to join the main effort of hundreds and hundreds of trucks that have started their journey already. I wouldn't be surprised if most routes in and out of Ottawa will become completely plugged up and doing a good job of immobilizing transportation in the NCR.


Nobody is really on the road in Ottawa right now.  Main bus and train are on different lines so maybe the 417 will be congested?  That’s nothing new though.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

We'll see what happens on the 23rd.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PMedMoe said:


> And apparently, _I'm_ trolling.   Guess someone can't answer the question.


Look up _Ignored_


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> Look up _Ignored_



Oh, I'm _hurt_!!


----------



## Remius

PMedMoe said:


> And apparently, _I'm_ trolling.  Guess someone can't answer the question.


My brother in law is big into that sort of thing.  But he can never tell me what the agenda is or what the end goal is.  Or what powers they have gained etc etc. 

It’s surface arguments with nothing deeper.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> We'll see what happens on the 23rd.


Oh for sure.  I have no doubt it will be disruptive.  This isn’t Ottawa’s first Rodeo with protests.


----------



## PMedMoe

Remius said:


> My brother in law is big into that sort of thing.  But he can never tell me what the agenda is or what the end goal is.  Or what powers they have gained etc etc.
> 
> It’s surface arguments with nothing deeper.



I found an awesome response to the whole "this is an agenda' thing yesterday.  Wish I had thought to copy and/or save it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> We'll see what happens on the 23rd.


Like the dump trucks last year....like the tow trucks about 3 years ago.    
Like it's never been done before??


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Like the dump trucks last year....like the tow trucks about 3 years ago.
> Like it's never been done before??


The truckers in Feb 2019.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> And protest they are. If you have travelling to do, plan ahead. The roads coming from east and west will be carrying convoys of trucks that are due to descend on Ottawa and Parliament Hill on the 23rd of January. There are waypoints all along the routes to collect and organize packets to join the main effort of hundreds and hundreds of trucks that have started their journey already. I wouldn't be surprised if most routes in and out of Ottawa will become completely plugged up and doing a good job of immobilizing transportation in the NCR.


Lol, you’ve never been in Ottawa for a significant protest, have you?

First, protests here are super normal, especially on/near the hill. Most don’t care or notice.

Second, they almost always underperform expected numbers.

Third, truck protests are nothing new. They’ll clog up Wellington in front of Parliament for a couple hours, and probably jam up a few streets nearby, but that’s it.

Fourth: On a Sunday in January when everyone’s working from home anyway? Amateur hour. This will barely ‘disrupt’ anything meaningful anyway. Parliament doesn’t sit on weekends. The downtown core will be empty regardless- anyone living there seldom drives anyway, and on a non-work day traffic is never much anyway.

I’m skeptical that they’ll get many people out for this. There will be lots of ‘solidarity from afar’ (again, SOP for protests here), but far fewer willing to turn down paying work to drive to Ottawa and back home. The simply reality is the overwhelming majority are vaccinated anyway, and even most of those who aren’t have better things to do with their weekend. This is not going to tangibly impact anything in any significant way. They never do.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> The truckers in Feb 2019.



Perfect example of a nothingburger. They snarled traffic a bit, but that was it. I was out and about downtown that day and still got through easily enough. At least they had the brains to try to disrupt downtown Ottawa on a weekday.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> My brother in law is big into that sort of thing.  But he *can never tell me what the agenda is or what the end goal is.*


Probably what's kept him safe..


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Probably what's kept him safe..


Lol


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> Lol, you’ve never been in Ottawa for a significant protest, have you?
> 
> First, protests here are super normal, especially on/near the hill. Most don’t care or notice.
> 
> Second, they almost always underperform expected numbers.
> 
> Third, truck protests are nothing new. They’ll clog up Wellington in front of Parliament for a couple hours, and probably jam up a few streets nearby, but that’s it.
> 
> Fourth: On a Sunday in January when everyone’s working from home anyway? Amateur hour. This will barely ‘disrupt’ anything meaningful anyway. Parliament doesn’t sit on weekends. The downtown core will be empty regardless- anyone living there seldom drives anyway, and on a non-work day traffic is never much anyway.
> 
> I’m skeptical that they’ll get many people out for this. There will be lots of ‘solidarity from afar’ (again, SOP for protests here), but far fewer willing to turn down paying work to drive to Ottawa and back home. The simply reality is the overwhelming majority are vaccinated anyway, and even most of those who aren’t have better things to do with their weekend. This is not going to tangibly impact anything in any significant way. They never do.
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect example of a nothingburger. They snarled traffic a bit, but that was it. I was out and about downtown that day and still got through easily enough. At least they had the brains to try to disrupt downtown Ottawa on a weekday.


The only disruptive experiences I’ve had in Ottawa was the bus strike a few years ago.  And anytime a sitting president visits.  If I know the POTUS is coming I take the day off lol.   But protests?  Barely notice them.  I see them but the city is so used to them. There are so many alternate routes in and out of the downtown core either way including public transit that can’t really be affected too much.  

And with the current work from policies I doubt this will register beyond the 1 min news story on local news.  As far as local disruption is concerned.


----------



## Remius

Wait, is this happening on a Sunday?


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> My brother in law is big into that sort of thing.  But he can never tell me what the agenda is or what the end goal is.



*“Those who say don’t know, and those who know don’t say.”*


----------



## suffolkowner

I don't know why the Canadian government had to jump the gun on the American border rules by 1 week. Just causes a needless problem


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> Wait, is this happening on a Sunday?


Lol, yup. The geniuses scheduled a ‘shut down Ottawa” protest for a Sunday in January.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Wait now......method to the madness....."pics of empty streets everywhere".


"WE DID IT!!!!!"


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Lol, yup. The geniuses scheduled a ‘shut down Ottawa” protest for a Sunday in January.



Maybe they've been infiltrated by CSIS


----------



## PMedMoe

Actually, 23 Jan is when they're leaving BC. I'd post a link but I don't feel like giving then any airtime.


----------



## mariomike

I don't see any support for this protest coming from the Teamsters union.



> Until now, professional drivers have been exempted from the vaccination requirement, while marine, airline and railroad workers were required to be immunized against the virus.





> The vast majority of Teamsters members who make deliveries south of the border are vaccinated.











						Vaccination Will Be Mandatory for Professional Drivers Traveling to the U.S. in January 2022 | Teamsters Canada
					

The federal government will require professional drivers to be vaccinated against COVID-19 in order to cross the border with the United States as early as January 15. The U.S. government made the same announcement recently.




					teamsters.ca


----------



## brihard

PMedMoe said:


> Actually, 23 Jan is when they're leaving BC. I'd post a link but I don't feel like giving then any airtime.


That would make a bit more sense. Still, downtown Ottawa’s pretty quiet these days, most are working from home. The “United we roll” protest was a flash in the pan that achieved nothing- just an angsty Western alienation tantrum. I see no reason to think this will be different.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in China (links to South China Morning Post - archive link here in case you don't trust their servers) ...


> The Omicron variant of the coronavirus could have entered the Chinese capital Beijing via contaminated mail from Canada, the city’s centre for disease control said on Monday.
> 
> Pang Xinghuo, deputy director of the Beijing Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, said the city’s first Covid-19 patient to be diagnosed with the variant had received a letter mailed from Canada on January 7.
> 
> “We do not rule out the possibility that the person was infected through contacting an object from overseas,” she said ...


#MailAPlague


----------



## McG

Living for the moment: Study points to cognitive differences in people who are vaccine hesitant
					

Researchers concluded vaccine hesitancy is associated with being less oriented toward the future, and more likely to choose a smaller reward today than wait…




					vancouversun.com
				



Interesting discoveries here.  The best way to bring an end to lock-downs is for everyone to get vaccinated, but the people avoiding the vaccine are more motivated by the instant gratification and so this long term message is lost on them.  This means getting greater uptake requires measures that mete out reward or punishment now.  So we are on the right path when requiring proof of vaccination to access public & commercial spaces, but we are probably not going to achieve success with an unvaxed tax that gets collected once a year with income tax.

What are options for reward/punishments that are more real-time or "right now"? Make the vaccine mandatory for employment in all venues where patrons are already obliged to be vaccinated for access. Make the vaccine mandatory for in-classroom high school learning. Follow Quebec's example and make proof of vaccination required to access alcohol or marijuana stores.


----------



## Quirky

McG said:


> Interesting discoveries here.  The best way to bring an end to lock-downs is for everyone to get vaccinated,



Is it? The goal posts of % vaccinated required to move on with life keeps moving to the right. First it was 70%, then 80%, now it's 100%? The only way to bring and end to lockdowns is to bring and end to lockdowns. It's a joke when some states in the US are moving on and some provinces in Canada are essentially obsessed with the same cycle expecting a different result.


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> Living for the moment: Study points to cognitive differences in people who are vaccine hesitant
> 
> 
> Researchers concluded vaccine hesitancy is associated with being less oriented toward the future, and more likely to choose a smaller reward today than wait…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouversun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting discoveries here.  The best way to bring an end to lock-downs is for everyone to get vaccinated, but the people avoiding the vaccine are more motivated by the instant gratification and so this long term message is lost on them.  This means getting greater uptake requires measures that mete out reward or punishment now.  So we are on the right path when requiring proof of vaccination to access public & commercial spaces, but we are probably not going to achieve success with an unvaxed tax that gets collected once a year with income tax.
> 
> What are options for reward/punishments that are more real-time or "right now"? Make the vaccine mandatory for employment in all venues where patrons are already obliged to be vaccinated for access. Make the vaccine mandatory for in-classroom high school learning. Follow Quebec's example and make proof of vaccination required to access alcohol or marijuana stores.



Like any other modern marketing efforts, whether you're selling soap or Exocets, release the (AI) hounds...

This has not been done well, IIRC, up to this pojnt of course because: government sucks at marketing:

How Could Digital Tools Help Fight Against Anti-Vaccination?​
How can digital health tools outside the realm of communication and social media platforms help? Well, there are quite a few ways to bring health technology into the fight against anti-vaxxers; but we have a couple of ideas for the developers too.

Sophisticated algorithms could play a role in addressing vaccine hesitancy. Just as Amazon and Netflix are adept at suggesting products and movies that ‘people like you’ might enjoy, health systems could build individually tailored messages most likely to resonate with individuals.

Artificial intelligence could also bring a helping hand in determining vaccine side effects from those who have already received their jab. This is what A.I. company Genpact is doing in the U.K. Their machine learning algorithm screens patient reports for patterns that could show signs of a possible issue. This can subsequently allow healthcare authorities to further investigate the case. This could help clear any false claims while also raising awareness of the actual side effects that one could experience.

Alternatively, innovative solutions could provide new opportunities to inform those at risk that they should be vaccinated. This could be, for example, via SMS alerts and reminders of dedicated health apps. Others are crowdsourcing data to build reliable online resources to help those eligible find a vaccination centre.










						How Could Digital Tools Help Fight Against Anti-Vaccination? - The Medical Futurist
					

Here’s our collection of the most recent steps and digital tools supporting the fight against anti-vaccination and its believers.




					medicalfuturist.com


----------



## McG

McG said:


> The best way to bring an end to lock-downs is for everyone to get vaccinated





Quirky said:


> Is it?


Yes it is.



Quirky said:


> The goal posts of % vaccinated required to move on with life keeps moving to the right. First it was 70%, then 80%, now it's 100%?


The virus mutates and we continue to learn more about it.  When the situation changes (or new information allows the situation to be understood as different) then the plan needs to adapt.  If you've taken a CAF leadership course then you should know this. It is not moving goal posts; it is keeping up.



Quirky said:


> It's a joke when some states in the US are moving on and some provinces in Canada are essentially obsessed with the same cycle expecting a different result.


We are getting a very different result from US states where there seems to be a willingness to just let more people die so it doesn't affect me.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Its my understanding that overall death rates remain somewhat unchanged since before COVID. 

I sit to be corrected though.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> That would make a bit more sense. Still, downtown Ottawa’s pretty quiet these days, most are working from home. The “United we roll” protest was a flash in the pan that achieved nothing- just an angsty Western alienation tantrum. I see no reason to think this will be different.


No none cares about traffic in down town Ottawa.
Block off the Amazon distribution facility and watch out.


----------



## McG

Halifax Tar said:


> Its my understanding that overall death rates remain somewhat unchanged since before COVID.
> 
> I sit to be corrected though.


Done: Provisional deaths and excess mortality in Canada dashboard

Highest lines on the chart are 2020 and 2021


----------



## Halifax Tar

McG said:


> Done: Provisional deaths and excess mortality in Canada dashboard
> 
> Highest lines on the chart are 2020 and 2021



Merci beaucoup mon ami!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

McG said:


> Done: Provisional deaths and excess mortality in Canada dashboard
> 
> Highest lines on the chart are 2020 and 2021


That spike in 2021 is likely the heat dome and the surge of OD deaths in BC. No data for the last month of the year, but it was trending below the predicted average. Of note that the ageing population of Canada is pushing the average death rate higher. I am not clear if the data represent the date of the death or the report date?


----------



## McG

Colin Parkinson said:


> That spike in 2021 is likely the heat dome and the surge of OD deaths in BC.


Maybe that explains the week of Canada Day, but it would be a pretty bold move to assume away the influence of COVID on a chart that exceeds the 95% expectations through so much of the year.


Colin Parkinson said:


> Of note that the ageing population of Canada is pushing the average death rate higher.


You don't think the people at StatsCan know this and consider it along with multiyear trends when developing their predictive curve?


Colin Parkinson said:


> I am not clear if the data represent the date of the death or the report date?


It does claim to show weekly deaths and not weekly reports but, even if there is a week of lag time, that is really not changing what these numbers show.


----------



## Quirky

McG said:


> The virus mutates and we continue to learn more about it.  When the situation changes (or new information allows the situation to be understood as different) then the plan needs to adapt.  If you've taken a CAF leadership course then you should know this. It is not moving goal posts; it is keeping up.



I don't care what the virus does, it's Canadas reaction to it. Moving on and accepting covid deaths as a part of life, just like OD deaths in BC which no one seems to care about anyway, is the only way forward. Most people are getting fed up with this crap of endless restrictions and useless boosters.


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> I don't care what the virus does, it's Canadas reaction to it. Moving on and accepting covid deaths as a part of life, just like OD deaths in BC which no one seems to care about anyway, is the only way forward. Most people are getting fed up with this crap of endless restrictions and useless boosters.


Some of us have lost family to OD deaths in BC. Some of us care.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> I don't care what the virus does, it's Canadas reaction to it. Moving on and accepting covid deaths as a part of life, just like OD deaths in BC which no one seems to care about anyway, is the only way forward. Most people are getting fed up with this crap of endless restrictions and useless boosters.


"Most people" were fed up at the very start.....but "most people" are responsible enough to know the difference between what's good for society and what's good for that small percentage of whiny sniveling self-serving morons.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I would say that 50% of the people I know who are unvaccinated have personal health concerns about it and don't express their opinions publicly. If the health system was already doing a crappy job of treating your issues pre-covid, then your trust of the professionals is quite limited. Public health officials are even less trustworthy as they are concerned about the population in general and not individuals, people who get sick and die from complications are just a number to them. One of the quirks of social media is that nowadays people that do react to medicines and vaccines are no longer faceless numbers as their stories now get disseminated, I don't think Public Health officials have wrapped their head around that shift.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:


> Like any other modern marketing efforts, whether you're selling soap or Exocets, release the (AI) hounds...
> 
> This has not been done well, IIRC, up to this pojnt of course because: government sucks at marketing:
> 
> How Could Digital Tools Help Fight Against Anti-Vaccination?​
> How can digital health tools outside the realm of communication and social media platforms help? Well, there are quite a few ways to bring health technology into the fight against anti-vaxxers; but we have a couple of ideas for the developers too.
> 
> Sophisticated algorithms could play a role in addressing vaccine hesitancy. Just as Amazon and Netflix are adept at suggesting products and movies that ‘people like you’ might enjoy, health systems could build individually tailored messages most likely to resonate with individuals.
> 
> Artificial intelligence could also bring a helping hand in determining vaccine side effects from those who have already received their jab. This is what A.I. company Genpact is doing in the U.K. Their machine learning algorithm screens patient reports for patterns that could show signs of a possible issue. This can subsequently allow healthcare authorities to further investigate the case. This could help clear any false claims while also raising awareness of the actual side effects that one could experience.
> 
> Alternatively, innovative solutions could provide new opportunities to inform those at risk that they should be vaccinated. This could be, for example, via SMS alerts and reminders of dedicated health apps. Others are crowdsourcing data to build reliable online resources to help those eligible find a vaccination centre.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Could Digital Tools Help Fight Against Anti-Vaccination? - The Medical Futurist
> 
> 
> Here’s our collection of the most recent steps and digital tools supporting the fight against anti-vaccination and its believers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> medicalfuturist.com


Sounds like FB Fact checkers


----------



## Quirky

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> "Most people" were fed up at the very start.....but "most people" are responsible enough to know the difference between what's good for society and what's good for that small percentage of whiny sniveling self-serving morons.


There aren’t enough vaccines to save all the obese and/or old people with health conditions. The only morons are the people who keep pushing restrictions and the morons who keep thinking it’s a good idea. Get another booster in between your self-administered Covid test.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Nick Cordero......he'd kick your ass in every fitness, wellness, and being  a decent human being category there is.

Tell his widow and young son what a big tough man you are.....


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nick Cordero......he'd kick your ass in every fitness, wellness, and being  a decent human being category there is.
> 
> Tell his widow and young son what a big tough man you are.....


If delivering physical beatings is a criteria, I’ll see that and raise Frederick Sinistra.


----------



## PuckChaser

McG said:


> The best way to bring an end to lock-downs is for everyone to get vaccinated



So, what data and science do you have to back that up? 50% of Ontario's ICU for COVID19 is unvaccinated. That's 290 of the 580 people. If vaccination lowers the risk of serious illness by roughly 80%, that means there would still be 58 of those folks in ICU, to go with the 580 vaccinated individuals for a total of 348. When the lockdown in Ontario began on 5 Jan 2022, Ontario's ICUs had 285 people. So a 100% vaccinated population in Ontario would buy, what, 2 or 3 more days of freedom?

Vaccination doesn't even stop the spread. The cases per 100K in Ontario curves for vaccinated vs non-vaccinated folks moved identically as we hit the peak detected case levels. In fact, those vaccinated folks were significantly more likely to not be symptomatic so the spread is estimated to be at least double, but more likely 4 fold the reported number.

All of this doesn't mean vaccines don't work. They reduce severity, that's it. We've basically been told they're a miracle cure, and that if you wanna get back to normal you need to be vaccinated. The data clearly shows that Canada is a one-trick pony for COVID-19, in that in the face of any increase in case loads we lock people out of their jobs and social connections in a frenzied panic to hope after the 4th or 5th time it'll finally work. Canada is third behind only Japan and South Korea in the G20 for vaccination uptake and we're still beating the drum of demonizing unvaccinated folks like they're a leper colony and in a perpetual cycle of lockdowns.

It's ok, you can admit it: Vaccines don't stop the spread, vaccine passports are completely useless and we won't vaccinate our way out of this.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nick Cordero......he'd kick your ass in every fitness, wellness, and being  a decent human being category there is.
> 
> Tell his widow and young son what a big tough man you are.....





brihard said:


> If delivering physical beatings is a criteria, I’ll see that and raise Frederick Sinistra.


Is this where we are? Advocating violence against a poster because of their opinion, no matter how wrong or offensive you judge him, because of your own biased opinion?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> Is this where we are? Advocating violence against a poster because of their opinion, no matter how wrong or offensive you judge him, because of your own biased opinion?


Oh come on. ....nice try lad. You're attempt to infer that is as easy to read as a Montreal Canadian's pass....


----------



## Quirky

Fishbone Jones said:


> Is this where we are? Advocating violence against a poster because of their opinion, no matter how wrong or offensive you judge him, because of your own biased opinion?



When your biggest worry in life is the next pension cheque, you can parrot endless restrictions and lockdowns to protect the same people.

The mental and financial well-being of the countries workforce has been completely ignored for two years. The elderly and compromised have their vaccines. Done. Move on with life. Covid at this point with vaccines is no more a risk to life than driving a car. Isolating people who are healthy, vaccinated but positive with Covid is completely insane.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:


> So, what data and science do you have to back that up? 50% of Ontario's ICU for COVID19 is unvaccinated. That's 290 of the 580 people. If vaccination lowers the risk of serious illness by roughly 80%, that means there would still be 58 of those folks in ICU, to go with the 580 vaccinated individuals for a total of 348. When the lockdown in Ontario began on 5 Jan 2022, Ontario's ICUs had 285 people. So a 100% vaccinated population in Ontario would buy, what, 2 or 3 more days of freedom?
> 
> Vaccination doesn't even stop the spread. The cases per 100K in Ontario curves for vaccinated vs non-vaccinated folks moved identically as we hit the peak detected case levels. In fact, those vaccinated folks were significantly more likely to not be symptomatic so the spread is estimated to be at least double, but more likely 4 fold the reported number.
> 
> All of this doesn't mean vaccines don't work. They reduce severity, that's it. We've basically been told they're a miracle cure, and that if you wanna get back to normal you need to be vaccinated. The data clearly shows that Canada is a one-trick pony for COVID-19, in that in the face of any increase in case loads we lock people out of their jobs and social connections in a frenzied panic to hope after the 4th or 5th time it'll finally work. Canada is third behind only Japan and South Korea in the G20 for vaccination uptake and we're still beating the drum of demonizing unvaccinated folks like they're a leper colony and in a perpetual cycle of lockdowns.
> 
> It's ok, you can admit it: Vaccines don't stop the spread, vaccine passports are completely useless and we won't vaccinate our way out of this.


Social distancing doesn't stop airborne viruses
Masks, unless properly fit tested N95, don't stop transmission.
Quarantines don't stop transmission
Vax passport don't stop transmission
Lockdowns don't stop transmission
Vaccinations don't stop transmissions
Standing in a restaurant, mandated to wear a mask changes to no mask when sitting. Do viruses not exist below five feet?

Yet evertime one of those things was trotted out we were told that the medical experts all agreed that if we just do what we're told and use these measures we can beat this thing. Why? Because according to them, the science is settled.

-BUT-



> "So next time someone tries to end a discussion by asserting that the science is settled, remember these three things. Number 1: We never stop learning. Science is never settled because there is always more to know. Number 2: The scientific consensus is frequently wrong. From mercury, to bloodletting, to germ theory, the scientific consensus has been wrong many times. Willingness to question the consensus is how we learn. And Number 3: Scientists are just as capable of bias as anyone else. Science isn’t an algorithm. It’s a process full of people. As long as people are imperfect, science will be too.
> The Science is Settled - What Would You Say


----------



## kev994

Fishbone Jones said:


> Social distancing doesn't stop airborne viruses
> Masks, unless properly fit tested N95, don't stop transmission.
> Quarantines don't stop transmission
> Vax passport don't stop transmission
> Lockdowns don't stop transmission
> Vaccinations don't stop transmissions
> 
> Yet evertime one of those things was trotted out we were told that the medical experts all agreed that if we just do what we're told and use these measures we can beat this thing. Why? Because according to them, the science is settled.
> 
> -BUT-


 Nobody ever said we were wearing masks to ‘stop’ transmission. Mitigating was always the goal.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> The mental and financial well-being of the countries workforce has been completely ignored for two years.


I guess I could be like you but just change it too "screw the fact your brain is weak and you're poor", but that would be wrong.



Fishbone Jones said:


> Social distancing doesn't stop airborne viruses
> Masks, unless properly fit tested N95, don't stop transmission.
> Quarantines don't stop transmission
> Vax passport don't stop transmission
> Lockdowns don't stop transmission
> Vaccinations don't stop transmissions
> 
> Yet evertime one of those things was trotted out we were told that the medical experts all agreed that if we just do what we're told and use these measures we can beat this thing. Why? Because according to them, the science is settled.
> 
> -BUT-



So many wrongs in one post....the actual reason is to get us through this thing, not "beat it.
All those things work to lower transmission,  that's been the goal since day one.....you could actually look it up.

Question....did we "beat" the Spanish Flu epidemic or was it just tired of killing us??


EDIT:....funny thing is, as I've said before, I agree it's time to start opening up and getting on with it.   Doesn't mean we have to do it going full blown moron


----------



## McG

PuckChaser said:


> So, what data and science do you have to back that up? 50% of Ontario's ICU for COVID19 is unvaccinated. That's 290 of the 580 people. If vaccination lowers the risk of serious illness by roughly 80%, that means there would still be 58 of those folks in ICU, to go with the 580 vaccinated individuals for a total of 348. When the lockdown in Ontario began on 5 Jan 2022, Ontario's ICUs had 285 people. So a 100% vaccinated population in Ontario would buy, what, 2 or 3 more days of freedom?


Your numbers don’t seem to match what the province has published, but the 50/50 split is still roughly there.

So, sticking with your numbers, an 80% reduction in 50% of a population is a 40% reduction of the whole. That is not insignificant. Remember, restrictions are imposed knowing that hospitals need to preserve space for all those people choosing not to take the steps that will keep them out of ICU. 40% goes a long way to delaying or avoiding increased restrictions. 40% goes a long way to delaying or avoiding the burn-out of medical professionals who have been working their asses off to keep people live. 40% goes a long way to preserving lives by allowing the continued provision of life saving “elective surgeries.” 40% goes a long way to delaying or avoiding the deployment of soldiers (away from their families) to backstop a system that has crashed.



PuckChaser said:


> Vaccination doesn't even stop the spread.


Nobody is arguing that vaccines slow omicron. You just invested a whole lot of text beating on a strawman. It was an ineffective distraction.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Perhaps we should all be wearing A suits.
Spanish flu? You know why it stopped being a problem and killing millions?

Natural herd immunity.......lad. 

The one proven action, many politicians and medical czars are trying to remove from the equation by forcing these other measures on us.


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Is this where we are? Advocating violence against a poster because of their opinion, no matter how wrong or offensive you judge him, because of your own biased opinion?


No, silly. Bruce pointed out a very physically fit individual who died of COVID, and said he would “kick your ass” in fitness, wellness, etc. along that theme, I pointed out an example of a very successful and supremely fit world class kick-boxer who died of COVID. At least _try_ to keep up. If you see a name you don’t recognize, maybe Google it and see if there’s any contextual clue.


----------



## Quirky

brihard said:


> Bruce pointed out a very physically fit individual who died of COVID


Physically fit individuals die from heart attacks too, along with countless other statistically insignificant things. Being fit doesn’t mask you from what mother nature and biology wants. One thing I can guarantee you though, if we weren’t in an obesity epidemic, hospitals wouldn’t be full like they are now.


----------



## PMedMoe

Regarding the number of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated in the hospital, I'm just going to leave this here.


----------



## QV

We can go full Israel and keep chasing boosters of a vaccine with questionable results and no long term safety data, or we can get back to basic frontline medicine. Below, the largest study of IVM to date, passed rigorous peer review, and published this week. 

_Ivermectin enters the chat









						Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching
					

Background: Ivermectin has demonstrated different mechanisms of action that potentially protect from both coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection and COVID-19-related comorbidities. Based on the studies suggesting efficacy in prophylaxis combined with the known safety profile of...




					www.cureus.com
				




“Ivermectin has been demonstrated to have not only extensive anti-parasitic actions [1,2], but also anti-viral, anti-bacterial, and anti-protozoan properties. Ivermectin has been long proposed for use as a repurposed antiviral agent [3-6]. Indeed, antiviral effects of ivermectin have been reported against both RNA and DNA types of viruses, including HIV-1, yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis, tick-borne encephalitis, West Nile, Zika, dengue fever, chikungunya, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, and the pseudorabies virus [3,5,7,8], as well as functioning in regulation of proteins involved in antiviral responses [8].”

“The ability to prescribe ivermectin or any other off-label drug for COVID-19 has long been at the discretion of frontline physicians once all risks, uncertainties, potential benefits, and patients’ rights are exposed, and informed consent has been obtained. Of particular note, in Brazil, this follows the medical autonomy to determine the best therapeutic strategies for individuals, as per the Medical Code of Ethics of the Brazilian Board of Medical Doctors, the Federal Council of Medicine - Conselho Federal de Medicina (CFM), that determines the obligations and rights of medical doctors in Brazil [32].”

*“In a citywide ivermectin program with prophylactic, optional ivermectin use for COVID-19, ivermectin was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization, and death rates from COVID-19.”*_


“Horse paste”


----------



## QV

kev994 said:


> Nobody ever said we were wearing masks to ‘stop’ transmission. Mitigating was always the goal.


Now do vaccines.


----------



## Booter

And at the bottom of the study, like ALL of the ivermectin studies, where it states that it’s not a replacement for vaccination- and the other studies that say to use it in conjunction with vaccination- do you throw that away as the part you don’t like?


----------



## QV

Booter said:


> And at the bottom of the study, like ALL of the ivermectin studies, where it states that it’s not a replacement for vaccination- and the other studies that say to use it in conjunction with vaccination- do you throw that away as the part you don’t like?


Are you just going to ignore the study I posted and pick apart what I did or didn’t copy/paste from the study?

I believe you should be free to take as many shots and boosters as you like, go nuts.


----------



## Booter

I read the study. And I don’t have a problem with ivermectin. Just another tool. I just think it’s pretty telling when people seize half the truth.

The other thing in there of note, since it’s your study, is what number they use as the mortality rate of Covid 19.Certainly not the negligible number people suggest.

But you can ignore that part too if you’d like.


----------



## Quirky

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/paxlovid-coming-to-quebec-1.6319092
		


People won’t take an “experimental”vaccine, end up in hospital only to receive an experimental treatment. The ironing.


----------



## QV

Booter said:


> I read the study. And I don’t have a problem with ivermectin. Just another tool. I just think it’s pretty telling when people seize half the truth.
> 
> The other thing in there of note, since it’s your study, is what number they use as the mortality rate of Covid 19.Certainly not the negligible number people suggest.
> 
> But you can ignore that part too if you’d like.


The whole study is linked for all to read, not sorry I didn’t highlight enough of the content for you personally.

And though I’d love to be able to take credit for work like this, the actual authors are all listed at the start. 

You can dispense with the childish remarks because you‘re mad I posted something challenging your preconceived notions. Have a great day.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

QV said:


> Are you just going to ignore the study I posted and pick apart what I did or didn’t copy/paste from the study?
> 
> I believe you should be free to take as many shots and boosters as you like, go nuts.


Being free to decide is the crux and where it falls apart. We live in the Matrix here. We think it's a democracy, but you have a PM that tells parents to leave the room so he can brainwash your kids. I don't care if you hate him or you hear vesper hymns when he talks. That was presumptuous, arrogant and just plain creepy and not the actions of an elected, democratic leader. It's authoritarian.


----------



## Booter

QV said:


> The whole study is linked for all to read, not sorry I didn’t highlight enough of the content for you personally.
> 
> And though I’d love to be able to take credit for work like this, the actual authors are all listed at the start.
> 
> You can dispense with the childish remarks because you‘re mad I posted something challenging your preconceived notions. Have a great day.


Lol. No I’m not mad. You’re intellectually dishonest- but I’m not mad you are. I expect you to be.


----------



## QV

Booter said:


> Lol. No I’m not mad. You’re intellectually dishonest- but I’m not mad you are. I expect you to be.


 ok.

You know, if you didn’t like the link I shared you didn’t have to read it. In fact, you could just put me on ignore. I promise it won’t bother me.


----------



## QV

Fishbone Jones said:


> Being free to decide is the crux and where it falls apart. We live in the Matrix here. We think it's a democracy, but you have a PM that tells parents to leave the room so he can brainwash your kids. I don't care if you hate him or you hear vesper hymns when he talks. That was presumptuous, arrogant and just plain creepy and not the actions of an elected, democratic leader. It's authoritarian.



Another matter for consideration is that serving career military people are probably not a good barometer for what constitutes as acceptable vs too authoritarian, in a free society, specifically with the C19 restrictions.

The CAF are used to being treated this way and thinks it’s normal. This is why I think the restrictions of rights and freedoms, mandates, are not held in as much contempt on this forum as I see publicly.


----------



## Booter

QV said:


> ok.
> 
> You know, if you didn’t like the link I shared you didn’t have to read it. In fact, you could just put me on ignore. I promise it won’t bother me.


I found the study interesting. I appreciate you posting it. Nothing in it causes me any issue. It’s good to have tools.


----------



## Booter

QV said:


> Another matter for consideration is that serving career military people are probably not a good barometer for what constitutes as acceptable vs too authoritarian, in a free society, specifically with the C19 restrictions.
> 
> The CAF are used to being treated this way and thinks it’s normal. This is why I think the restrictions of rights and freedoms, mandates, are not held in as much contempt on this forum as I see publicly.


I think you haven’t lived enough places and that’s why you view minor inconveniences with contempt and tantrums.

We all have theories.

I do worry about small business and their families now. Finding a balance between health and supporting others while not just killing different people through poverty.


----------



## QV

My two decade CAF career has taken me all over the world, so you would be wrong. 

I don’t think any court of law in Canada or the US has ever referred to a denial of rights or freedoms as minor inconveniences. We should tread more carefully here, or perhaps we should change the name to The Canadian Charter of Minor Privilages and Small Conveniences.  

But you make my point. Travel restrictions, lockdowns, curfews, business closures, school closures, border closures, mask mandates, vaccine mandates, forced quarantine, vaccine passports, additional taxes for the unvaccinated, restricted access to society for the unvaccinated, supply chain problem…etc… all just very minor inconveniences indeed.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Compared to my fellow citizens dying needless deaths  or suffering long lasting effects, then you are right.....minor inconveniences indeed.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Compared to my fellow citizens dying needless deaths  or suffering long lasting effects, then you are right.....minor inconveniences indeed.


It all seems to be working just great.

You don’t care about these ones though, hey?









						Lockdowns killed more Canadians under 65 than COVID-19: Statscan
					

The consequences of government-enforced lockdowns killed more Canadians under the age of 65 than the COVID-19 virus itself, according to a report by Statistics Canada.




					tnc.news


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> It all seems to be working just great.


Waaaaaay better then 1918.


----------



## QV

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Waaaaaay better then 1918.


Waaaay different bug.


----------



## Quirky

QV said:


> The CAF are used to being treated this way and thinks it’s normal. This is why I think the restrictions of rights and freedoms, mandates, are not held in as much contempt on this forum as I see publicly.


This forum and its most frequent posters are from a time long ago and do not reflect what’s happening in reality. The amount of people I know who actually support mandates and restrictions are few and far between.

Your point of view changes drastically when things like:


> Travel restrictions, lockdowns, curfews, business closures, school closures, border closures, mask mandates, vaccine mandates, forced quarantine, vaccine passports, additional taxes for the unvaccinated, restricted access to society etc


 don’t affect your life anyway. Sit at home fat dumb and happy and wait for that gov cheque to come in.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> The amount of people I know who actually support mandates and restrictions are few and far between.


A more telling tale has never been spun....


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> This forum and its most frequent posters are from a time long ago and do not reflect what’s happening in reality. The amount of people I know who actually support mandates and restrictions are few and far between.
> 
> Your point of view changes drastically when things like:
> don’t affect your life anyway. Sit at home fat dumb and happy and wait for that gov cheque to come in.


I don’t think for a second that you care about people affected by this one way or another.  I don’t think you care how this affects anyone except yourself. 

So stop pretending.  We can all see that this is about how this is affecting you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

QV said:


> Another matter for consideration is that serving career military people are probably not a good barometer for what constitutes as acceptable vs too authoritarian, in a free society, specifically with the C19 restrictions.
> 
> The CAF are used to being treated this way and thinks it’s normal. This is why I think the restrictions of rights and freedoms, mandates, are not held in as much contempt on this forum as I see publicly.



Other side of the coin;  do you think the average citizen is a good barometer?  The TikTok obsessed, "me me me" society that is familiar to North America these days??  

Maybe we're actually decent barometers, because we're also pretty good at determining stuff that is too heavy handed?  I support some of the measures some of the provinces in the Maritimes have done since this all started (NS), but think others have been too heavy handed and crossed lines that they didn't have the authority to cross (PEI and NB).


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> The amount of people I know who actually support mandates and restrictions are few and far between.



That may also be a product of the prevailing political ideology where you personally are.

The membership of this forum is far from being just a bunch of retirees, so you’re out to lunch on your characterization of most of us as fat dumb and happy pensioners.


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Sit at home fat dumb and happy and wait for that gov cheque to come in.



That remark hurt so much I cried all the way to the bank.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Quirky said:


> Sit at home fat dumb and happy and wait for that gov cheque to come in.


Sit at home? Only when the ground is too stiff to kick a shovel in to. Fat?  Okay, fair enough. Dumb? I guess you'd be a better judge of my mental acuity than me. Happy? As a pig in shit.  I can't wait for the news from you that you've turned down your pension because you don't ever want to sit at home and be fat dumb and happy. Do yourself a favour, don't get old.


----------



## QV

Quirky said:


> The amount of people I know who actually support mandates and restrictions are few and far between.


From what I see, those who tend to continue to support mandates and restrictions are older retirees or those who have jobs that will still pay them to stay home, and like you said the restrictions don’t affect them much.

In the beginning probably a majority supported some measures, but now 24 months later after what we’ve all seen and experienced… I’d guess 75-80% of the general population are now completely done with all of it.


----------



## QV

Eye In The Sky said:


> Other side of the coin;  do you think the average citizen is a good barometer?  The TikTok obsessed, "me me me" society that is familiar to North America these days??
> 
> Maybe we're actually decent barometers, because we're also pretty good at determining stuff that is too heavy handed?  I support some of the measures some of the provinces in the Maritimes have done since this all started (NS), but think others have been too heavy handed and crossed lines that they didn't have the authority to cross (PEI and NB).


I think most serving CAF members are used to the rigid dictatorial environment of service, unlimited liability, orders etc…and I also don’t think the general population as a whole are tiktok obsessed selfish people. So I stand by my statement. No offence intended there EITS.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> From what I see, those who tend to continue to support mandates and restrictions are older retirees or those who have jobs that will still pay them to stay home, and like you said the restrictions don’t affect them much.
> 
> In the beginning probably a majority supported some measures, but now 24 months later after what we’ve all seen and experienced… I’d guess 75-80% of the general population are now completely done with all of it.


There is COVID fatigue, no doubt about that.  

But your numbers are way off.  









						Slim majority support government lockdowns, restrictions in response to Omicron: poll
					

A new poll suggests a slim majority of Canadians support the latest round of lockdowns and other government-imposed restrictions as the Omicron variant continue to fuel an explosion in new COVID-19 infections.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




So 35% maybe are done with it all.

But it also seems that a majority of vaccinated people are fine with limiting the unvaccinated access to society.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Fruit and vegetables are just a small part of cross border trade. Trudeau and Biden are responsible for the mandates, but family providers, taxpayers and average Joe are the ones that are paying for this. Your paycheck just got smaller...........again. The 80% trade between countries is going to dwindle to a trickle. We've been working through cross border since the beginning. Why the sudden move to choke it off?









						New trucking vaccine mandate is likely to make fruit and vegetables more expensive
					

The cost of transporting fruit from California and Arizona to Canada climbed 25% last week, the CEO of Canadawide Fruits told Bloomberg on Monday.




					www.businessinsider.com
				




New trucking vaccine mandate is likely to make fruit and vegetables more expensive​

Vaccine mandates for truckers who haul goods over the US-Canada border could cause price hikes.
The CEO of Canadawide Fruits told Bloomberg the cost of transporting produce climbed 25% last week.
Canada imposed the mandate on Saturday, and the US plans to require vaccine passports on January 22.
New vaccine mandates for truck drivers are likely to increase the cost of produce.

The cost of transporting fruit from California and Arizona to Canada climbed 25% last week, George Pitsikoulis, the CEO of Canadawide Fruits, told Bloomberg on Monday. 

The executive, in Montreal, mentioned a lack of truck drivers who were able to cross the border between the US and Canada because of a vaccine mandate that cut US trucking capacity in half, data from the American Trucking Association indicated. The group estimated that about 50% to 60% of US truck drivers were fully vaccinated. Stephen Laskowski, the president of the Canadian Trucking Alliance, told The Wall Street Journal that a survey of Canadian truckers suggested that over 10% of truckers in the country weren't vaccinated.

Canada's vaccine mandate for truckers was imposed on Saturday. The new rules require US truckers to present proof of vaccination in order to cross the border, while Canadian truckers without a vaccine passport are required to quarantine and take a COVID-19 test when they reenter from the US.

The US plans to impose a similar mandate on January 22, and trucking companies have already begun to boost their rates to compete for vaccinated truck drivers.

In December, Fuel Transport, a Canadian logistics company that employs about 90 truckers, began offering a $10,000 incentive to truck drivers who had received their first COVID-19 vaccine dose. In January, one of Canada's largest trucking firms, Bison Transport, started offering $2,000 signing bonuses for vaccinated truckers — an extra cost that Rob Penner, the company's CEO, said would ultimately be passed on to consumers.

James Ward, the president of Truckload Carriers Association, previously told Insider that he believed the vaccine mandate would exacerbate the shortage of truck drivers and make it more difficult to bring in new ones, as well as add to longer wait times at the border.

Eighty percent of trade between the US and Canada moves by truck. Canada accounts for one of the US's largest export markets. Trade between the two countries totaled over $600 billion in 2019.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> There is COVID fatigue, no doubt about that.
> 
> But your numbers are way off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slim majority support government lockdowns, restrictions in response to Omicron: poll
> 
> 
> A new poll suggests a slim majority of Canadians support the latest round of lockdowns and other government-imposed restrictions as the Omicron variant continue to fuel an explosion in new COVID-19 infections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So 35% maybe are done with it all.
> 
> But it also seems that a majority of vaccinated people are fine with limiting the unvaccinated access to society.


You might believe that if you’re operating under the assumption the legacy media is an honest trusted protector of our democracy, and still a check and balance on government. But now the only time “check” is used to describe the relationship between media and government it is spelled “cheque”.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> You might believe that if you’re operating under the assumption the legacy media is an honest trusted protector of our democracy, and still a check and balance on government. But now the only time “check” is used to describe the relationship between media and government it is spelled “cheque”.


I’m not prone to conspiracy theories, no.

But I’m also not going to trust “your” guess.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> I’m not prone to conspiracy theories, no.
> 
> But I’m also not going to trust “your” guess.


Remius still believes $600 million in funding buys absolutely zero influence. 

The notion that hundreds of millions buys influence is, in his mind, a conspiracy theory.

That’s like thinking “rebates” from pharmaceutical companies are morally superior to “kick backs”.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Remius still believes $600 million in funding buys absolutely zero influence.
> 
> The notion that hundreds of millions buys influence is, in his mind, a conspiracy theory.
> 
> That’s like thinking “rebates” from pharmaceutical companies are morally superior to “kick backs”.


Ah yes.  Putting words into people’s mouths. 

Why don’t you actually come up with an actual argument to support your claim that 85% are done with everything beyond your best guess based on your echo chamber.

So to what end?  You are linking big media and big government as to wanting to continue this.  What’s the end game?  What are they achieving?


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> What’s the end game?



"Those who say don't know. Those who know don't say."


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> "Those who say don't know. Those who know don't say."


Yes lol.  

Apparently only QV knows and won’t say.


----------



## Good2Golf

According to CV, the flow through costs won’t matter to the fat, dumb and happy Govt pensioners in here.  Especially true it would follow logically, because most of the fat, dumb and happy pensions will be indexed.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Apparently only QV knows and won’t say.



That's for him to know, and us to find out!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Posted for info only. Same as the last time. Try not to confuse the message with the messenger this time.😉

Update on the Ottawa convoy. It will be leaving the coast on the 23 to arrive in Ottawa on the 28-29.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=373761267850240


----------



## QV

The UK just ended mandatory masking, compulsory work from home, and mandatory vaccine passports.

Whats Canada doing again?


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> The UK just ended mandatory masking, compulsory work from home, and mandatory vaccine passports.
> 
> Whats Canada doing again?


Have we peaked yet?  The UK has.  So any issues with waiting for us to get to that point as well? 

Also still waiting on your 85% are done with this source.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Have we peaked yet?  The UK has.  So any issues with waiting for us to get to that point as well?
> 
> Also still waiting on your 85% are done with this source.


You should go re-read my post.

I get the impression you’re quite happy with the suggestion a majority of Canadians prefer to segregate the unvaccinated from society.

Have we peaked? Don’t know, try this: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:


> Have we peaked yet?  The UK has.  So any issues with waiting for us to get to that point as well?
> 
> Also still waiting on your 85% are done with this source.


Fun fact; Did you know that 72.292% of all statistics are fabricated on the spot?


----------



## QV

I said it was my impressions based on what I’ve seen and experienced. Tough concept I know.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm not too sure what everyone is even arguing about anymore


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> You should go re-read my post.
> 
> I get the impression you’re quite happy with the suggestion a majority of Canadians prefer to segregate the unvaccinated from society.
> 
> Have we peaked? Don’t know, try this: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca


I did.  It’s full of guesses.  

“DON’T KNOW” That’s all I needed from you.  Go find out and we can talk about what the UK and Canada are doing. Because you are not informed enough for me to get anything of value from this discussion with you. 

You may have missed my entire argument with Altair about denying health care to the unvaccinated or my opinion on rapid tests being a way to bridge gaps. 

But like most of your arguments that make assumptions and guesses you would be wrong.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> I did.  It’s full of guesses.
> 
> “DON’T KNOW” That’s all I needed from you.  Go find out and we can talk about what the UK and Canada are doing. Because you are not informed enough for me to get anything of value from this discussion with you.
> 
> You may have missed my entire argument with Altair about denying health care to the unvaccinated or my opinion on rapid tests being a way to bridge gaps.
> 
> But like most of your arguments that make assumptions and guesses you would be wrong.


Denying healthcare is one thing, where do you stand on societal restrictions as a whole? 

I try to point out things no one else mentions… Feel free to block my posts Remius, if I don’t measure up to your standards.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> Denying healthcare is one thing, where do you stand on societal restrictions as a whole?
> 
> I try to point out things no one else mentions… Feel free to block my posts Remius, if I don’t measure up to your standards.


I have a no block policy.


----------



## QV

More than one in four Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated, poll finds
					

In the Maru poll, 27 per cent of respondents say it would be OK to jail the unvaccinated for up to five days




					nationalpost.com
				




We went from talking about taxing the unvaccinated to talking about jailing them very fast.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> More than one in four Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated, poll finds
> 
> 
> In the Maru poll, 27 per cent of respondents say it would be OK to jail the unvaccinated for up to five days
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We went from talking about taxing the unvaccinated to talking about jailing them very fast.


Not that far off from the number of people who are said to be done with all of this. 

27% isn’t a number to be afraid of.  Let alone the fact that legally it’s quite likely impossible.


----------



## QV

It was said mandatory vaccination wasn't supported in Canadian law, yet they've found ways to coerce and force people to "choose" to be vaccinated by taking away things until they make the right choice, such as society access and the ability to retain jobs. Not to mention the characterization of being a racist extremist, by the PM, for not being agreeable to one particular vaccine.


----------



## Remius

QV said:


> It was said mandatory vaccination wasn't supported in Canadian law, yet they've found ways to coerce and force people to "choose" to be vaccinated by taking away things until they make the right choice, such as society access and the ability to retain jobs. Not to mention the characterization of being a racist extremist, by the PM, for not being agreeable to one particular vaccine.


Mandatory vaccinations are not supported by law.  But conditions of employment are supported by law.  It’s has been demonstrated by the court system.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

NOW - UK PM Boris Johnson: "The government will no longer mandate the wearing of face masks anywhere."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483785379140579329
Not text to copy and paste. You'll have to watch it. Masks, passports, work from home all gone.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> NOW - UK PM Boris Johnson: "The government will no longer mandate the wearing of face masks anywhere."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1483785379140579329
> Not text to copy and paste. You'll have to watch it. Masks, passports, work from home all gone.


They’ve also passed their peak for Omicron.  

But Johnson is also facing calls to step down so I’m sure part of this is a distraction.  Not saying the move is wrong for their situation but the timing with this current scandal is a bit suspicious.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

QV said:


> More than one in four Canadians support jail time for the unvaccinated, poll finds
> 
> 
> In the Maru poll, 27 per cent of respondents say it would be OK to jail the unvaccinated for up to five days
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We went from talking about taxing the unvaccinated to talking about jailing them very fast.


So roughly 400 people of a targeted audience of around 1500.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> But it also seems that a majority of vaccinated people are fine with limiting the unvaccinated access to society.



Occasionally I read articles written by people musing on the ill behaviour of the past and wondering what kind of pressures could make people do such things.  Now we know.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> I said it was my impressions based on what I’ve seen and experienced. Tough concept I know.



And your concept was "rigorously peer reviewed".   And speaking of peer review . . .



QV said:


> . . .  passed *rigorous peer review*, and published this week.
> 
> Ivermectin enters the chat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin Prophylaxis Used for COVID-19: A Citywide, Prospective, Observational Study of 223,128 Subjects Using Propensity Score Matching
> 
> 
> Background: Ivermectin has demonstrated different mechanisms of action that potentially protect from both coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infection and COVID-19-related comorbidities. Based on the studies suggesting efficacy in prophylaxis combined with the known safety profile of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cureus.com



Can you describe "rigorous" peer review generally and more specifically as it applies to this study and the particular journal in which it was published?

A hypothetical question?  Partly, but since the beginning of this pandemic I've been astounded by the number of times that individuals (not restricted solely to these forums) have referred to "peer reviewed" articles as if that appellation made such articles unquestionable when my assumption is that the majority of such quoters previously never had reason nor inclination to look at an academic/professional journal.

The site on which this article was published includes a brief description of their review policy.



> Credible Peer Review Required
> Cureus publishes all credible medical science applicable to the global healthcare community. Article credibility is determined by favorable commentary from trusted peer reviewers that includes substantial critical feedback confirming the absence of fatal scientific and methodological flaws.
> 
> All authors should invite unbiased and expert reviewers who will provide critical feedback. Please note that medical students may not be invited to peer review. Positive reviews lacking in substantial constructive feedback will be closely scrutinized by our editors and may be rejected. Think of it this way - your peer reviewers will be reviewed, therefore inviting credible reviewers is of paramount importance.
> 
> Two completed reviews are required in order to proceed, *one of which must be from a reviewer invited by Cureus. This requirement will be waived after 21 days if two author-invited reviews have been submitted.*



I readily admit that going to the link you provided was the first time I visited the site and thus was unfamiliar with them or with any reputation that they may have.  And while the massive proliferation of on-line "professional" journals has made the dissemination of research much more inclusive, there is still cachet to being published in a journal that boasts a greater reputation.  That reputation usually goes hand in hand with a more stringent review process and thus more acceptance of the conclusions reached in published articles.  Though I do not lump Cureus in with a number of on-line "peer review" journals that are so obviously thinly veiled scams, neither do I accept that their review is "rigorous".

There is no imposed standard of peer review, however there are some generally accepted policies with the strictest forms usually found in the more prestigious journals.  Several links here that discuss review.









						Peer Review Process in Medical Journals
					

Reviewers play key roles in manuscript processing and publication. This article describes in detail how the reviewer serves their two key roles as a gatekeeper of making publication recommendations for the editorial board and a consultant providing constructive ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				











						Peer review: What is it and why do we do it?
					

Medical research goes through peer review before publication in a journal to ensure that the findings are reliable and suitable for the audience. Peer review is important for preventing false claims, minimizing bias, and avoiding plagiarism. It helps ensure that any claims really are...




					www.medicalnewstoday.com
				











						Understanding peer review - Author Services
					

Find out how the peer review process works and how you can use it to ensure every article you publish is as good as it can be.




					authorservices.taylorandfrancis.com
				











						Opinion | Does Peer Review Still Matter in the Era of COVID-19?
					

Milton Packer describes the impossible task of vetting medical research




					www.medpagetoday.com
				




One notable difference between the generally accepted (more rigorous) and Cureus' policies is their acceptance of author invited reviewers, whereas the usual best practice is editor assigned/invited and double blind (neither author nor reviewer know the other's identity).  I don't know specifically if the "peer review" for the article you quoted was author invited but my less that satisfactory opinion was partly predicated on the timeline they provided for the review.


> Publication history​Peer review began: January 04, 2022
> Peer review concluded: January 13, 2022
> Published: January 15, 2022



A more positive note is that Cureus includes "comments" from readers, something the more disreputable journal sites do not or heavily edit to a set agenda.  Some of the article's comments do question some of the study's methodology but unfortunately there isn't a larger continuing discussion, however that may be due to the site's relative obscurity, something I hope will improve over time (along with the review process) because they seem to have an easy to use and inclusive format.

As to the conclusions reached in the study you linked, probably my best response would be to link to comments made in response to a pre-print of the article.









						Ivermectin study in the city of Itajaí contains several methodological weaknesses, resulting in questionable conclusions
					

Ivermectin is a drug used to treat parasitic infections in humans and animals. Although some studies conducted on cells growing in the lab suggest that ivermectin has antiviral properties, reliable and large-scale clinical trials in humans haven’t detected significant benefits from ivermectin...




					healthfeedback.org


----------



## QV

Blackadder1916 said:


> And your concept was "rigorously peer reviewed".   And speaking of peer review . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Can you describe "rigorous" peer review generally and more specifically as it applies to this study and the particular journal in which it was published?
> 
> A hypothetical question?  Partly, but since the beginning of this pandemic I've been astounded by the number of times that individuals (not restricted solely to these forums) have referred to "peer reviewed" articles as if that appellation made such articles unquestionable when my assumption is that the majority of such quoters previously never had reason nor inclination to look at an academic/professional journal.
> 
> The site on which this article was published includes a brief description of their review policy.
> 
> 
> 
> I readily admit that going to the link you provided was the first time I visited the site and thus was unfamiliar with them or with any reputation that they may have.  And while the massive proliferation of on-line "professional" journals has made the dissemination of research much more inclusive, there is still cachet to being published in a journal that boasts a greater reputation.  That reputation usually goes hand in hand with a more stringent review process and thus more acceptance of the conclusions reached in published articles.  Though I do not lump Cureus in with a number of on-line "peer review" journals that are so obviously thinly veiled scams, neither do I accept that their review is "rigorous".
> 
> There is no imposed standard of peer review, however there are some generally accepted policies with the strictest forms usually found in the more prestigious journals.  Several links here that discuss review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peer Review Process in Medical Journals
> 
> 
> Reviewers play key roles in manuscript processing and publication. This article describes in detail how the reviewer serves their two key roles as a gatekeeper of making publication recommendations for the editorial board and a consultant providing constructive ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Peer review: What is it and why do we do it?
> 
> 
> Medical research goes through peer review before publication in a journal to ensure that the findings are reliable and suitable for the audience. Peer review is important for preventing false claims, minimizing bias, and avoiding plagiarism. It helps ensure that any claims really are...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medicalnewstoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding peer review - Author Services
> 
> 
> Find out how the peer review process works and how you can use it to ensure every article you publish is as good as it can be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> authorservices.taylorandfrancis.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion | Does Peer Review Still Matter in the Era of COVID-19?
> 
> 
> Milton Packer describes the impossible task of vetting medical research
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.medpagetoday.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One notable difference between the generally accepted (more rigorous) and Cureus' policies is their acceptance of author invited reviewers, whereas the usual best practice is editor assigned/invited and double blind (neither author nor reviewer know the other's identity).  I don't know specifically if the "peer review" for the article you quoted was author invited but my less that satisfactory opinion was partly predicated on the timeline they provided for the review.
> 
> 
> A more positive note is that Cureus includes "comments" from readers, something the more disreputable journal sites do not or heavily edit to a set agenda.  Some of the article's comments do question some of the study's methodology but unfortunately there isn't a larger continuing discussion, however that may be due to the site's relative obscurity, something I hope will improve over time (along with the review process) because they seem to have an easy to use and inclusive format.
> 
> As to the conclusions reached in the study you linked, probably my best response would be to link to comments made in response to a pre-print of the article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin study in the city of Itajaí contains several methodological weaknesses, resulting in questionable conclusions
> 
> 
> Ivermectin is a drug used to treat parasitic infections in humans and animals. Although some studies conducted on cells growing in the lab suggest that ivermectin has antiviral properties, reliable and large-scale clinical trials in humans haven’t detected significant benefits from ivermectin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthfeedback.org


If only you applied such rigorous scrutiny to all positions on this subject.


----------



## QV

Remius said:


> Mandatory vaccinations are not supported by law.  But conditions of employment are supported by law.  It’s has been demonstrated by the court system.


I wonder… if government awarded private corporations with incentives to instil vaccine mandates on employees, would that be considered too much reach by the state?

Conversely what if government penalized private corporations for not doing it?

In either case, would that corporation then be acting as an agent of the state to compel vaccine mandates that the government couldn’t ordinarily lawfully order?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

QV said:


> I think most serving CAF members are used to the rigid dictatorial environment of service, unlimited liability, orders etc…and I also don’t think the general population as a whole are tiktok obsessed selfish people. So I stand by my statement. No offence intended there EITS.


None taken.   👍🏻


----------



## QV

Official UK gov site answers the following question: “Please supply deaths caused solely by covid 19, where covid is the only cause of death listed on the death certificate, broken down by age group and gender between feb 2020 up to and including dec 2021.”



			COVID-19 deaths and autopsies Feb 2020 to Dec 2021 - Office for National Statistics
		


In England and Wales over the two year pandemic, C19 was determined to be the only cause of death for only 1,189 people under 65 years old. It shoots up after 65 but I don’t think I’ll get an argument that advanced age is not a comorbidity unto itself.


----------



## daftandbarmy

COVID mortality rates: It's not just bad, it's historically bad:


COVID-19: Four different death tolls, but scale of tragedy depends on which numbers you choose​
For instance, compare last year with the 2015-19 period and the increase in mortality is closer to 2.7%. So answer c) is sort of correct.

But still, it seems odd to look at 2021 in isolation given it followed such a severe year for deaths, so if we want a view of the death toll with more perspective we might do better to look at both 2020 and 2021, and here the verdict is quite clear.

Take an average of the mortality rate over these two years and we have never seen as big a deterioration since 1940/41.

And you have to go back to WWI and the Spanish Flu to find another period of two or more years which were all far worse the preceding five-year average.









						COVID-19: Four different death tolls, but scale of tragedy depends on which numbers you choose
					

There are various different ways of measuring the impact of the pandemic, one of the worst periods for mortality in modern history - but the scale of the tragedy depends on which number you choose and what you are counting.




					news.sky.com


----------



## Quirky

Could also have something to do with the obesity epidemic and generally overall poor health of the population at large. Mississippi and Alabama give you clues, hell so does our FN population, but lets ignore that and call this flu a population killer.

Hopefully this will convince people to actually take personal responsibility for their own health….they won’t.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> And you have to go back to WWI and the Spanish Flu to find another period of two or more years which were all far worse the preceding five-year average.



Interesting.

Saw these three reasons why some people may - or may not - choose to wear a mask.



> 1. Humility: I don’t know if I have COVID as it is clear that people can spread the disease before they have symptoms.





> 2. Kindness: I don’t know if the person I am near has a kid battling cancer, or cares for their elderly mom. While I might be fine, they might not.





> 3. Community: I want my community to thrive, businesses to stay open, employees to stay healthy.











						Wearing a mask shows humility, kindness, community
					

Wearing a mask shows humility, kindness, communityThis was shared with me by a customer in Chequers yesterday.I wear my mask while in public for 3 reasons:1. Humility: I don’t




					www.aspentimes.com


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Could also have something to do with the obesity epidemic and generally overall poor health of the population at large. Mississippi and Alabama give you clues, hell so does our FN population, but lets ignore that and call this flu a population killer.
> 
> Hopefully this will convince people to actually take personal responsibility for their own health….they won’t.


So you’re hypothesizing that though obesity has been a problem for decades it just happened to have suddenly spiked the death toll at the precise time that a fake pandemic occurred?


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Saw these three reasons why some people may - or may not - choose to wear a mask.



And then . . . for those of us who need as much advantage as possible . . .









						COVID-19: Face masks make people look more attractive, study suggests
					

Researchers say women found images of men wearing blue medical masks most attractive and believe this is because "we may find the wearing of medical masks reassuring and so feel more positive towards the wearer".




					news.sky.com
				





> COVID-19: Face masks make people look more attractive, study suggests​Researchers say women found images of men wearing blue medical masks most attractive and believe this is because "we may find the wearing of medical masks reassuring and so feel more positive towards the wearer".
> 
> Face masks may have been among the more divisive issues of the COVID-19 pandemic but those reluctant to wear one may change their minds now that academics have discovered that people actually look more attractive when wearing one.
> 
> Yes, we know they cover up half of your face but a team of experts at Cardiff University has found that wearing a mask, in particular a blue medical mask, increases your facial attractiveness.
> 
> Dr Michael Lewis, from the university's School of Psychology and an expert in the psychology of faces, said that prior to the pandemic research found that medical face masks reduced attractiveness.
> 
> His team wanted to see if the "ubiquitous" use of face masks to prevent the spread of COVID-19 since 2020 has changed people's perceptions of those wearing them.
> 
> The study measured how different types of face masks changed the attractiveness of 40 male faces.
> 
> A group of women was asked to rate the attractiveness of images of male faces without a mask, wearing a cloth mask, a blue medical mask and holding a black book covering the area a mask would hide, on a scale of one to 10.


----------



## brihard

I can say with confidence that I’m definitely hotter with half my face covered.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:


> And then . . . for those of us who need as much advantage as possible . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Face masks make people look more attractive, study suggests
> 
> 
> Researchers say women found images of men wearing blue medical masks most attractive and believe this is because "we may find the wearing of medical masks reassuring and so feel more positive towards the wearer".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.sky.com



Meanwhile, the experts look on at the rookies ...


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> So you’re hypothesizing that though obesity has been a problem for decades it just happened to have suddenly spiked the death toll at the precise time that a fake pandemic occurred?


Look up the stats yourself. Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight, vaccinations just buy you time.


----------



## Halifax Tar

It sounds like COVID may exasperate underlying issues such as obesity.


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Look up the stats yourself. Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight, vaccinations just buy you time.


I’m not sure where you’re going with this… you want us to mandate diets and exercise instead of closing restaurants?


----------



## ModlrMike

Quirky said:


> Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight, vaccinations just buy you time.


As someone who's been dealing with this first hand, I assure you, they're not.


----------



## Quirky

ModlrMike said:


> As someone who's been dealing with this first hand, I assure you, they're not.



I can assure you, they are.









						Covid-19: Why are age and obesity risk factors for serious disease?
					

Worldwide more than 41 million people have now been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and over a million people have died. But what makes this virus so difficult to control, and why are some people more at risk than others? Elisabeth Mahase reports  Paul Lehner, professor of immunology and medicine at...




					www.bmj.com
				






> In July Public Health England estimated that having a BMI of 35 to 40 could increase a person’s chances of dying from covid-19 by 40%, while a BMI greater than 40 could increase the risk by 90%.1





> The US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention has said that eight in 10 covid-19 related deaths reported in the country have been among people aged 65 years or over.2



Again, protect the venerable, or god forbid they protect themselves, and move on with life. Luckily this is what the provinces are doing despite the hysterical public minority. People by in large are fed up with this crap.


----------



## dapaterson

How to have fun with anti-vaxx / conspiracy theory folks: Point out that by removing mask mandates, governments are just making it easier to employ facial recognition technology.


----------



## Remius

Quirky said:


> I can assure you, they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Why are age and obesity risk factors for serious disease?
> 
> 
> Worldwide more than 41 million people have now been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and over a million people have died. But what makes this virus so difficult to control, and why are some people more at risk than others? Elisabeth Mahase reports  Paul Lehner, professor of immunology and medicine at...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, protect the venerable, or god forbid they protect themselves, and move on with life. Luckily this is what the provinces are doing despite the hysterical public minority. People by in large are fed up with this crap.


The provinces have been setting the rules from the get go.


----------



## dimsum

Quirky said:


> Luckily this is what the provinces are doing despite the hysterical public minority. People by in large are fed up with this crap.


Right, that's why Canada has one of the highest vax and booster rates.

Because they're fed up with...vax mandates.









dapaterson said:


> How to have fun with anti-vaxx / conspiracy theory folks: Point out that by removing mask mandates, governments are just making it easier to employ facial recognition technology.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in 'murrica...


----------



## dimsum

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in 'murrica...
> 
> 
> View attachment 68209











						Update: Page County woman charged after comments made at school board meeting
					

The Luray Police Department charged Amelia King, 42, with a violation of the Code of Virginia 18.2-60 Oral Threat While on School Property.




					www.whsv.com


----------



## brihard

Quirky said:


> I can assure you, they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Why are age and obesity risk factors for serious disease?
> 
> 
> Worldwide more than 41 million people have now been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and over a million people have died. But what makes this virus so difficult to control, and why are some people more at risk than others? Elisabeth Mahase reports  Paul Lehner, professor of immunology and medicine at...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, protect the venerable, or god forbid they protect themselves, and move on with life. Luckily this is what the provinces are doing despite the hysterical public minority. People by in large are fed up with this crap.


Lol. The guy who fixes planes just told the guy who works frontline with COVID patients in a medical setting that he‘s wrong about patient characteristics. Amazing.

Even better, Quirky goes on to double down with stats that don’t speak to his specific claim. The claim was “Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight”, and the subsequent article spoke to risks attach to certain comorbidities, NOT the abundance of obesity in the overall hospitalized patient population.

There’s not staying in your lane, and then there’s looking at the car in the lane beside you and deliberately smashing into it. This is the latter.


----------



## RangerRay

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in 'murrica...
> 
> 
> View attachment 68209


Sadly, this has been happening way too frequently down there. The decent people doing these jobs for free will leave fearing for their safety leaving the field open for extremists and grifters.  From here, it doesn’t look like law enforcement is taking these threats seriously.


----------



## MilEME09

Quirky said:


> I can assure you, they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Why are age and obesity risk factors for serious disease?
> 
> 
> Worldwide more than 41 million people have now been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and over a million people have died. But what makes this virus so difficult to control, and why are some people more at risk than others? Elisabeth Mahase reports  Paul Lehner, professor of immunology and medicine at...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, protect the venerable, or god forbid they protect themselves, and move on with life. Luckily this is what the provinces are doing despite the hysterical public minority. People by in large are fed up with this crap.


BMI is one of the worst optics to measure obesity, I could be 6'3, 210lbs of muscle and be over weight, healthy by any other standard, but BMI says I wouldn't be.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Excuses excuses...


----------



## Blackadder1916

brihard said:


> Lol. The guy who fixes planes just told the guy who works frontline with COVID patients in a medical setting that he‘s wrong about patient characteristics. Amazing.
> 
> Even better, Quirky goes on to double down with stats that don’t speak to his specific claim. The claim was “Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight”, and the subsequent article spoke to risks attach to certain comorbidities, NOT the abundance of obesity in the overall hospitalized patient population.
> 
> There’s not staying in your lane, and then there’s looking at the car in the lane beside you and deliberately smashing into it. This is the latter.



As much as I find Quirky's continuing arguments to verge on trolling (separate from his selfish a***holery point of view), he is probably correct in his assertion about age, weight and hospitalization rates.  There are probably (actually, definitely) several links that I could immediately provide that support it, however I won't.  He can do his own damn research and find ones that specifically deal with his statements.  That being said, the conclusions that he seems to reach and the solutions that he suggests are rarely backed up by data and the reality of society.



ModlrMike said:


> As someone who's been dealing with this first hand, I assure you, they're not.



And as strange as it may seem, Mike is also probably right.  His dealings with it on the frontline are observational, but anecdotal, and likely limited to the facilities in which he works.  Without further information I can only make assumptions or ask further questions*.  One of those assumptions is that the majority of the patients that he sees "don't look obese or overweight".  When a majority of the population fall within that criteria, it becomes the normal body appearance, is not noted as unusual by the average person, and with the potential for an increased tendency to be less noticeable by clinicians unless there are other underlying morbidities.  I welcome Mike to tell me how uncorrect I am in suggesting any shortfall in his practice of medicine (and I likely am), or how patient profiles have changed as this pandemic progresses.



*(and that's where the "Let The Old Die, I Want To Do As I Please Twins" fall short - they don't ask the further questions that their selected data and questionable articles should elicit, they stop when their bias is confirmed)


----------



## PuckChaser

dimsum said:


> Right, that's why Canada has one of the highest vax and booster rates.
> 
> Because they're fed up with...vax mandates.


Vax mandates added 3% to the total in Ontario for folks getting vaccinated. It wasn't this big "win" you think it was. We're never getting above 90% total eligible population fully vaccinated, no matter how many coercive measures you put in place. At a certain point, the divisive politics of pitting Canadians fails when that 90% realizes the politicians reneged on their promise of a return to normal if you just get vaccinated. If our Healthcare system can't handle 10% unvaccinated folks, who are predominately from a non-severe illness age bracket, then that's where the problem is not those dirty unvaccinated lepers.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I don't call almost 90% of folks doing the right thing "divisive"......it would be the biggest election landslide in history.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I don't call almost 90% of folks doing the right thing "divisive"......it would be the biggest election landslide in history.


93% percent of Canadians wear seat belts. 7% don’t.  That 7% makes up 40% of the fatalities on the road. 

We can’t fix stupid.  Stupid will never be convinced.


----------



## dapaterson

Darwin is doing his part.


----------



## Weinie

MilEME09 said:


> BMI is one of the worst optics to measure obesity, *I could be 6'3, 210lbs of muscle and be over weight*, healthy by any other standard, but BMI says I wouldn't be.


Hey, I'm in the room.


----------



## QV

Editorial in the BMJ critical the raw data is not public, “big pharma least trusted industry”. 









						Covid-19 vaccines and treatments: we must have raw data, now
					

Data should be fully and immediately available for public scrutiny  In the pages of The BMJ a decade ago, in the middle of a different pandemic, it came to light that governments around the world had spent billions stockpiling antivirals for influenza that had not been shown to reduce the risk...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> Look up the stats yourself. Majority of people hospitalized are obese or overweight, vaccinations just buy you time.


2/3rds of Canadians are overweight so if there was no causation I would expect a similar proportion of people hospitalized be overweight.


----------



## Haggis

Convoy for Freedom 2022 is making it's way to Ottawa to protest the trucker vaccine mandate.  Gerald Butts has them in his sights on Twitter


----------



## winds_13

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I don't call almost 90% of folks doing the right thing "divisive"......it would be the biggest election landslide in history.


Just because something is popular, does not mean that it is not divisive. To be divisive means that something is "tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people." Also, being vaccinated does not mean that someone is pro-mandate... although about 60% of the population was last poll I checked.

Historically, when majority groups pit themselves against minority groups, things do not end well. This is why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was created.









						Avi Benlolo: China is not the only nation flouting basic human rights
					

On International Human Rights Day, a reminder that freedom and democracy need defending around the globe




					nationalpost.com
				




To your credit, it does appear that the turning point in the last federal election was when Trudeau shifted his campaign to be one pointed againt anti-vaxx protesters and hardline mandates against those work from home. It seems punishing the unvaccinated for not "doing the right thing" (this is a politcal tagline, BTW) became one of the most important election issues.


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Just because something is popular, does not mean that it is not divisive. To be divisive means that something is "tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people." Also, being vaccinated does not mean that someone is pro-mandate... although about 60% of the population was last poll I checked.
> 
> Historically, when majority groups pit themselves against minority groups, things do not end well. This is why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was created.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Avi Benlolo: China is not the only nation flouting basic human rights
> 
> 
> On International Human Rights Day, a reminder that freedom and democracy need defending around the globe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To your credit, it does appear that the turning point in the last federal election was when Trudeau shifted his campaign to be one pointed againt anti-vaxx protesters and hardline mandates against those work from home. It seems punishing the unvaccinated for not "doing the right thing" (this is a politcal tagline, BTW) became one of the most important election issues.


The unwilling unvaccinated are not a minority group in any definition of any rights declaration.  The more extreme have compared themselves to holocaust victims.   It’s an inappropriate comparison at best.


----------



## mariomike

Haggis said:


> Convoy for Freedom 2022





> the convoy to Ottawa won’t be “trying to block traffic”



That's nice of them.

Apparently, it is not sactioned by the Teamsters union.

Anti-Vaxxer = Patriot, flag-waving, Freedom fighter?









						Definition of ANTI-VAXXER
					

a person who opposes the use of some or all vaccines, regulations mandating vaccination, or usually both; often, specifically : a parent who opposes having his or her child vaccinated —often used before another noun… See the full definition




					www.merriam-webster.com
				






Remius said:


> The more extreme have compared themselves to holocaust victims.   It’s an inappropriate comparison at best.


----------



## PMedMoe

Haggis said:


> Convoy for Freedom 2022 is making it's way to Ottawa to protest the trucker vaccine mandate.



I wonder how that GoFundMe money is going to be divvied up?  Guess people aren't as hard up and they claimed to be.


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:


> I wonder how that GoFundMe money is going to be divvied up?



Some background on that from Truck News,








						The murky matter of protests and the donations that drive them - Truck News
					

Much has been made of late on social media and in the mainstream media, about trucker protests that are in the works. Truckers are rightfully upset about




					www.trucknews.com
				






> The fundraising initiative was started by Tamara Lich, who has a history of association with radical groups, including the recently formed federal separatist Maverick Party in Alberta.


----------



## Remius

mariomike said:


> Some background on that from Truck News,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The murky matter of protests and the donations that drive them - Truck News
> 
> 
> Much has been made of late on social media and in the mainstream media, about trucker protests that are in the works. Truckers are rightfully upset about
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trucknews.com


Oh boy…


----------



## winds_13

Remius said:


> The unwilling unvaccinated are not a minority group in any definition of any rights declaration.  The more extreme have compared themselves to holocaust victims.   It’s an inappropriate comparison at best.


Remius, do you care to provide a definition of what is considered a minority group? Is it not simply "a group of people whose practices, race, religion, ethnicity, or other characteristics are fewer in numbers than the main groups of those classifications."

Moreover, human rights are not bound by identification of any particular group affiliation... they are supposed to be basic and universal, something that is afforded to all humans.


----------



## dimsum

Remius said:


> Oh boy…


Yep.  My eyebrows raised when reading the paras below.



> And, where will that million or so bucks go? It will go into the organizer’s bank account, that we know. That’s how GoFundMe works. From there, who knows? Since the fundraiser is not an official charity or organization, there is no further accountability. (Incidentally, Trucknews.com chooses not to promote GoFundMe initiatives for this very reason).
> 
> Lich says the money will go towards reimbursing participating truckers for their fuel costs. That’s great, but hauling a load would pay more than bobtailing cross-country for the cost of diesel. Rates aren’t bad, these days. She’ll cover food and lodging too, if you really need it.
> 
> The good news is, funds will be dispersed via e-transfer “(preferred).” Paper trail! Since GoFundMe wipes its hands of accountability once the dough is deposited into Lich’s account, we hope she will be forthcoming about how those funds are distributed.


Not a grift at all...


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Remius, do you care to provide a definition of what is considered a minority group? Is it not simply "a group of people whose practices, race, religion, ethnicity, or other characteristics are fewer in numbers than the main groups of those classifications."
> 
> Moreover, human rights are not bound by identification of any particular group affiliation... they are supposed to be basic and universal, something that is afforded to all humans.


You made a historical link with majority groups pitting themselves against minority groups.  Can you maybe indicate which ones historically that you meant to say that didn’t fall under those categories?  Your argument seems to lump them all and puts the unvaccinated on par with all of it.  Like the holocaust, or slavery etc etc.  All things the unvaccinated activists have compared themselves to. 

You are using the term “minority group” in the context of civil and human rights.   Therefore the expectation is to take the definition in that context.  The unvaccinated do not fall under anything covered by those declarations. 

Some reading:









						Do mandatory vaccines violate human rights?
					

Human rights give all people the right to be protected from harm. And Covid-19 poses a major public health risk.




					qz.com
				









						OHRC Policy statement on COVID-19 vaccine mandates and proof of vaccine certificates | Ontario Human Rights Commission
					






					www.ohrc.on.ca
				












						Compulsory vaccination: what does human rights law say?
					

Many countries, including the UK, are considering mandatory vaccination programmes. They may violate human rights law.




					theconversation.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

PMedMoe said:


> I wonder how that GoFundMe money is going to be divvied up?


Some speed bumps from the 2019 "let's all drive our trucks to Ottawa" protests here and here. 


PMedMoe said:


> Guess people aren't as hard up and they claimed to be.


Well, if _some_ protesters are bashed for not going to protest instead of going to work, right? 😉 #GoodForTheGoose


----------



## PMedMoe

According to Medicine Hat News, Lich organized the convoy. Nothing like free publicity, eh?


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:


> Convoy for Freedom 2022 is making it's way to Ottawa to protest the trucker vaccine mandate.  Gerald Butts has them in his sights on Twitter


Looks like they’re back to arriving in Ottawa on a weekend.

I’m still not sure what they think they’ll “shut down”? A traffic jam in the largely empty downtown core on a weekend will have zero impact on the mechanisms of government. Best they’ll achieve is cause further hassle to the already struggling businesses in the Byward Market and on Bank and Elgin.


----------



## Quirky

PuckChaser said:


> Vax mandates added 3% to the total in Ontario for folks getting vaccinated. It wasn't this big "win" you think it was. We're never getting above 90% total eligible population fully vaccinated, no matter how many coercive measures you put in place. At a certain point, the divisive politics of pitting Canadians fails when that 90% realizes the politicians reneged on their promise of a return to normal if you just get vaccinated. If our Healthcare system can't handle 10% unvaccinated folks, who are predominately from a non-severe illness age bracket, then that's where the problem is not those dirty unvaccinated lepers.



And at this point in time, with 90% of the country vaccinated, more and more people are still travelling despite these nonsensical restrictions.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/travel-omicron-test-1.6322609
		




> "Life is short," said Long, 58, of Richmond, B.C. "We needed to feel some warmth [and] we really missed Mexico."





> "People are saying, "Listen, we only have a limited time on this planet.… We've put off travel for two years now, I don't want to put it off anymore," said Keyter, owner of The Travel Lady Agency in Calgary.





> "I spent a year and a half of my life not seeing family, not seeing friends," he said. "I'm not going to stop living my life."






MilEME09 said:


> BMI is one of the worst optics to measure obesity, I could be 6'3, 210lbs of muscle and be over weight, healthy by any other standard, but BMI says I wouldn't be.



The amount of people who fall in the obesity measure of overweight by BMI due to muscle mass is laughable. In the end it doesn't matter what excuses you use to justify obesity, the proof is in the pudding. This pandemic showed us just how little attention is given to personal health by the average Canadian and it's clear that our healthcare system won't be there to save them. Manitoba is a clear example - where they suffer from more serious C19 outcomes due to some the highest rates of obesity and diabetes in the country. No amount of restrictions, masks and vaccination rates will save these people in the long run. People's personal choices are getting them killed, not some flu bug.


----------



## Haggis

MilEME09 said:


> BMI is one of the worst optics to measure obesity, I could be 6'3, 210lbs of muscle and be over weight, healthy by any other standard, but BMI says I wouldn't be.


Back in the early 90's (about the same time the "Warrior Program" was born) the CAF adopted the BMI as a broad brush messure of fitness. I was one of the "fit fat" caught in the BMI net. I scored Silver at least during the Warrior years but couldn't get promoted with a BMI over 27 until a MO signed off on me.


----------



## Haggis

brihard said:


> Looks like they’re back to arriving in Ottawa on a weekend.
> 
> I’m still not sure what they think they’ll “shut down”? A traffic jam in the largely empty downtown core on a weekend will have zero impact on the mechanisms of government. Best they’ll achieve is cause further hassle to the already struggling businesses in the Byward Market and on Bank and Elgin.


I see this as an ideal opportunity for downtown Ottawa businesses to cater to the truck junkies and all those fans of "Heavy Rescue 401" and "Highway Thru Hell". Hold some Chrome Plate dinner specials, Trucker takeouts etc.


----------



## Good2Golf

Haggis said:


> Back in the early 90's (about the same time the "Warrior Program" was born) the CAF adopted the BMI as a broad brush messure of fitness. I was one of the "fit fat" caught in the BMI net. I scored Silver at least during the Warrior years but couldn't get promoted with a BMI over 27 until a MO signed off on me.


Yup.  Classic case of near-blind adherence to a poorly thought out rule-of-thumb.  A friend in flight school was a professional body builder before joining the CAF.   He was 5’8” and 250lbs - BMI of 37+ but he had only 4% body fat.  The Flt Surg told him that he was bound by policy to tell him that he had to work to reduce his BMI…he stood up, turned around and semi-curled the examination table up to chest height, then put it down and sat back down in front the the Flt Surgeon. Long pause…”Okay, I’ll process an exemption for your file.”


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Looks like they’re back to arriving in Ottawa on a weekend.





> Mercy sakes alive, looks like we got us a connnvoyyyy!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> Looks like they’re back to arriving in Ottawa on a weekend.
> 
> I’m still not sure what they think they’ll “shut down”? A traffic jam in the largely empty downtown core on a weekend will have zero impact on the mechanisms of government. Best they’ll achieve is cause further hassle to the already struggling businesses in the Byward Market and on Bank and Elgin.


Or you can all quit guessing. All the info on the donations and co-ordination is all on their website.









						Canada Unity | Canada Unity
					

We are a humanitarian organization that brings people together. Canada Unity bases it's foundations on community.




					canada-unity.com


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Or you can all quit guessing. All the info on the donations and co-ordination is all on their website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada Unity | Canada Unity
> 
> 
> We are a humanitarian organization that brings people together. Canada Unity bases it's foundations on community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> canada-unity.com


You’re seeing something I’m not then, because the website is both super slow and thin on content. If this is what they’re counting on to articulate what they actually hope to achieve, that doesn’t bode well.

Regardless of which day of the week they show up (though everything I’m seeing says Saturday the 29th), clogging downtown Ottawa with trucks for a relatively brief period will be an amusing tantrum but not much else. If they think they’ll meaningfully interfere with the mechanisms of government, or influence government policy, they’re deluded. 

I do look forward to hearing about what happens with the fundraiser proceeds.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> You’re seeing something I’m not then, because the website is both super slow and thin on content. If this is what they’re counting on to articulate what they actually hope to achieve, that doesn’t bode well.
> 
> Regardless of which day of the week they show up (though everything I’m seeing says Saturday the 29th), clogging downtown Ottawa with trucks for a relatively brief period will be an amusing tantrum but not much else. If they think they’ll meaningfully interfere with the mechanisms of government, or influence government policy, they’re deluded.
> 
> I do look forward to hearing about what happens with the fundraiser proceeds.


Yes, you're missing it. Everything is there. Claim forms (per the million dollars), timings, routes, etc. The organizers have stated, as opposed to your view of a day long inconvenience, they are going nowhere. They are in this, apparently, for as long as it takes to get trudeau to respond. The website has been fine for two weeks. Perhaps, regular people are taking notice and bogging it down to find out what's going on. Actually checking, before throwing shade at it.


----------



## dimsum

brihard said:


> I do look forward to hearing about what happens with the fundraiser proceeds.


Me too.  Popcorn is ready.







If would be shocked if there _wasn't _a future article saying those truckers got taken...um...for a ride.


----------



## kev994

Good2Golf said:


> Yup.  Classic case of near-blind adherence to a poorly thought out rule-of-thumb.  A friend in flight school was a professional body builder before joining the CAF.   He was 5’8” and 250lbs - BMI of 37+ but he had only 4% body fat.  The Flt Surg told him that he was bound by policy to tell him that he had to work to reduce his BMI…he stood up, turned around and semi-curled the examination table up to chest height, then put it down and sat back down in front the the Flt Surgeon. Long pause…”Okay, I’ll process an exemption for your file.”


USCG has weight standards, they start with BMI, they do some weird calculations with your neck; apparently if you have a thick neck they subtract some numbers. If you fail that they used to use the fat measure pinchers but I think they stopped doing that, then there’s a water displacement test. Anyway, long story, same problem, they end up with these super fit body builders getting caught up in the system that hasn’t accounted for their body type.


----------



## PMedMoe

So, is the Freedom Convoy going to protest in the U.S. as well?  Even if they manage to get vaccine mandates changed here in Canada, they will still need to be vaccinated to cross the border.

Canadians now have to be fully vaccinated to cross the U.S. land border - "Those wishing to enter the U.S., *whether for essential or non-essential reasons*, will need to show proof of vaccination.


----------



## kev994

PMedMoe said:


> So, is the Freedom Convoy going to protest in the U.S. as well?  Even if they manage to get vaccine mandates changed here in Canada, they will still need to be vaccinated to cross the border.
> 
> Canadians now have to be fully vaccinated to cross the U.S. land border - "Those wishing to enter the U.S., *whether for essential or non-essential reasons*, will need to show proof of vaccination.


That’s going to be pretty hard to do from this side of the border. 😂


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yes, you're missing it. Everything is there. Claim forms (per the million dollars), timings, routes, etc. The organizers have stated, as opposed to your view of a day long inconvenience, they are going nowhere. They are in this, apparently, for as long as it takes to get trudeau to respond. The website has been fine for two weeks. Perhaps, regular people are taking notice and bogging it down to find out what's going on. Actually checking, before throwing shade at it.


_shrug_ could be. The site was totally bogged down for me, I wasn’t going to burn more time.

I believe your hope in this is misplaced. There is nothing in the considerable history of protests in Ottawa to suggest this will change anything. My understanding is trucks are expensive to maintain and insure, and rent/mortgages don’t pay themselves. Donations will only carry them so long if they get anything like the turnout they want to claim.

The familiar pattern in Ottawa is a lot of people show up for a day or two, most go home, and a few malcontents camp out somewhere. That will likely prove consistent with the need of most of these people to take paying loads. If they think they’ll be allowed to leave trucks clogging up downtown indefinitely, they’re out of touch with reality. Ottawa Police doesn’t play that way.


----------



## brihard

PMedMoe said:


> So, is the Freedom Convoy going to protest in the U.S. as well?  Even if they manage to get vaccine mandates changed here in Canada, they will still need to be vaccinated to cross the border.
> 
> Canadians now have to be fully vaccinated to cross the U.S. land border - "Those wishing to enter the U.S., *whether for essential or non-essential reasons*, will need to show proof of vaccination.


Shhh! You’re not supposed to say the quiet part out loud, Moe. This is entirely a Trudeau thing, just ask the truckers.


----------



## mariomike

Canadian Trucking Alliance condemns trucker protests
					

A federation representing truckers across Canada has denounced a series of planned protests against the federal government's cross-border travel vaccine mandate, arguing such demonstrations aren't a safe or effective way of resisting the policy.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				









						Canadian Trucking Alliance Statement to Those Engaged in Road/Border Protests - Canadian Trucking Alliance
					






					cantruck.ca
				





> The Canadian Trucking Alliance (CTA) does not support and strongly disapproves of any protests on public roadways, highways, and bridges.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> _shrug_ could be. The site was totally bogged down for me, I wasn’t going to burn more time.
> 
> I believe your hope in this is misplaced. There is nothing in the considerable history of protests in Ottawa to suggest this will change anything. My understanding is trucks are expensive to maintain and insure, and rent/mortgages don’t pay themselves. Donations will only carry them so long if they get anything like the turnout they want to claim.
> 
> The familiar pattern in Ottawa is a lot of people show up for a day or two, most go home, and a few malcontents camp out somewhere. That will likely prove consistent with the need of most of these people to take paying loads. If they think they’ll be allowed to leave trucks clogging up downtown indefinitely, they’re out of touch with reality. Ottawa Police doesn’t play that way.


You've been coming at me from the wrong angle all along. All I have been doing is reporting what I see. I don't live in Ottawa. So I really don't care at all what happens to commuters. I'm also not jaded enough to think trudeau will even look at it. I am extremely well versed in trucks and mayhem, living in the busiest cross border town in North America. I simply post the info I see on their website. Have all the opinions you want, but I really have no dog in this fight, other than wishing them well for exercising their rights. Whether you believe what I post or not, is immaterial to me. You don't want to spend time and research it before giving your opinion? Go for it. All I am doing is posting what they are doing, from their website.. Not arguing about it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

And another well spoken piece from Neil Oliver


----------



## Jarnhamar

Ottawa better hope the comet Rea-M doesn't pass by while all those trucks are in town. Especially if there's a truck that looks like this:


----------



## Haggis

Jarnhamar said:


> Ottawa better hope the comet Rea-M doesn't pass by while all those trucks are in town. Especially if there's a truck that looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 68220


Rhea-M is in June.  We're safe....this time.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Haggis said:


> Rhea-M is in June.  We're safe....this time.


You had to go and say it?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Not too surprising...

New study shows higher incidence of violent crime in poor Vancouver neighbourhoods, theft in wealthier ones​
A new study co-authored by Simon Fraser University researchers has found a rise in violent crime in Vancouver's poorer neighbourhoods during the pandemic, while wealthier areas saw a small uptick in theft-related crimes.

"During the pandemic we found that overall, crime tends to increase more in marginalized areas within the city," said professor Martin Andresen in a statement.

Andresen and co-author Tarah Hodgkinson of Wilfrid Laurier University found that between March 1, 2020 and Feb. 28, 2021, arson, assault, robbery and weapon-related offences increased in the downtown core, as well as in the neighbourhoods of Strathcona and Mount Pleasant.

Meanwhile, the average monthly number of theft incidents went down in all of Vancouver.

The central business district downtown and surrounding areas saw a decrease in theft of vehicle and theft from vehicle crimes, according to the study. 

Andresen says this can be attributed to the fact that many businesses were closed during parts of the pandemic and employees had to work from home. 

"For the people who ended up living in Vancouver and working downtown, they were no longer downtown which is where a lot of these crimes happened normally," he said.

However, more affluent neighbourhoods, like Kerrisdale, Dunbar-Southlands and West Point Grey saw a slight increase in theft-related incidents.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/sfu-study-vancouver-crime-impacts-1.6323902


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Haggis said:


> Rhea-M is in June.  We're safe....this time.


Don't Look Up








						Don't Look Up (2021) - IMDb
					

Don't Look Up: Directed by Adam McKay. With Leonardo DiCaprio, Jennifer Lawrence, Meryl Streep, Cate Blanchett. Two low-level astronomers must go on a giant media tour to warn humankind of an approaching comet that will destroy planet Earth.




					www.imdb.com


----------



## ModlrMike

daftandbarmy said:


> Not too surprising...
> 
> New study shows higher incidence of violent crime in poor Vancouver neighbourhoods, theft in wealthier ones​


Casual observation at work would bear this out. Further, in these neighbourhoods, there is little stranger on stranger violence. The victim and perp typically have a common nexus.


----------



## winds_13

A long, but interesting opinion piece with plenty of links to source documentation.









						Opinion: Vaccines are a tool, not a silver bullet. If we’d allowed more scientific debate, we would have realized this earlier
					

More than two years since COVID-19 emerged, our kit of solutions – and the mindset needed to use them – is too small. It’s time to listen to the science in a broader way




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brace for impact, stay on your toes:

22 things you need to know about B.C. business and the economy in 2022​

1. The big picture is mixed​
Several forces are converging to deny B.C. and the rest of the world a smooth COVID recovery. “The economy is improving because the pandemic is ebbing and the economy is reopening,” says David Williams of the Business Council of B.C. “But we are running into some headwinds and difficulties with supply chains and global supply.” So the outlook for global and Canadian economic growth has been downgraded for 2022, with some of that expansion pushed back to 2023. “At the same time, inflation has ended up being far higher, broader and more sustained than many central banks had projected.”

2. An economic rebound hides fundamental flaws​
As of December, the BCBC forecast the province’s real GDP growth at 5 percent for 2021 and 4 percent this year, versus 4.3 percent for Canada as a whole. Still, the economic fundamentals are much softer than those relatively strong numbers suggest, Ken Peacock stresses. “If you look across different industry sectors, for nine of the 16 broad industry categories, employment levels are still below pre-pandemic levels,” he says of B.C. “So more than half the industries have not seen jobs recover to where they were, and we’re almost two years out now.”


3. Inflation looks like it’s here to stay​
Anyone convinced that the current wave of inflation is a passing phase could be disappointed. After the Bank of Canada upgraded its year-average inflation forecast by a full percentage point, Williams says, the Consumer Price Index (CPI) rose 4.7 percent year-over-year in October. “So these are very difficult times for Team Transitory.”


With inflation not expected to return to 2-percent levels until 2024, Peacock holds out hope that higher prices will ease somewhat. “But if we see 5-, 5.5-, 6-percent inflation stick around for two or three or four years, purchasing power is going to be severely eroded,” he says. “Households will fall behind. And this, I think, is a potential problem for this provincial government, which, from the day it was elected, has been very interested in raising well-being and prosperity for households, personal incomes.”








Sources: Statistics Canada, BC Stats, Business Council of B.C.


4. Interest rates have nowhere to go but up​
Uncomfortably high inflation means that businesses should plan for rising interest rates, says Central 1’s Bryan Yu. He thinks the market’s call for three rate increases this year and two in 2023 is aggressive, though, given that the economy isn’t fully healed. “It’s heading in the right direction, but whether that warrants three hikes is debatable.”


In real terms after inflation, Williams notes, Canada’s policy interest rate is –4.5 percent. “Interest rates affect the economy with a lag of about two quarters to six quarters,” he says. “So you’ve got to ask whether a real policy rate of –4.5 percent is what the economy really needs in six to 18 months. It doesn’t look like it needs that kind of stimulus.”


With real interest rates at an all-time low, the Bank of Canada has promised not to change the policy rate until the second half of 2022. “With inflation now at 4.7 percent, it’s very difficult to believe that the central bank will leave interest rates on hold for that period of time,” says Williams, who points out that the BoC recently hinted at a second- or third-quarter hike. “But that still seems an awfully long time to leave interest rates, in real terms, being very significantly negative.” If real rates quickly move closer to zero, “that would be a very contractionary effect on the economy, and I don’t think the economy is all that strong and robust.” 









						22 things you need to know about B.C. business and the economy in 2022
					

From inflation and supply chains to climate change and housing prices, we explore how things could unfold, with help from an expert panel




					www.bcbusiness.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

Interesting new info about Omicron:



> The Omicron variant can survive longer than earlier versions of the coronavirus on plastic surfaces and human skin, Japanese researchers found in laboratory tests.
> 
> Its high “environmental stability” - its ability to remain infectious - might have helped Omicron replace Delta as the dominant variant and spread rapidly, they said. On plastic surfaces, average survival times of the original strain and the Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta variants were 56 hours, 191.3 hours, 156.6 hours, 59.3 hours, and 114.0 hours, respectively. That compared to 193.5 hours for Omicron, the researchers reported on bioRxiv ahead of peer review. On skin samples from cadavers, average virus survival times were 8.6 hours for the original version, 19.6 hours for Alpha, 19.1 hours for Beta, 11.0 hours Gamma, 16.8 hours for Delta and 21.1 hours for Omicron.
> 
> On skin, all of the variants were completely inactivated by 15 seconds of exposure to alcohol-based hand sanitizers. “Therefore,” the researchers conclude, “it is highly recommended that current infection control (hand hygiene) practices use disinfectants... as proposed by the World Health Organization.”











						Omicron survives longer on plastic, skin than prior variants; nose swabbing found best for rapid tests
					

The following is a summary of some recent studies on COVID-19. They include research that warrants further study to corroborate the findings and that has yet to be certified by peer review.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## ModlrMike

The really important bit:



> On skin, all of the variants were completely inactivated by 15 seconds of exposure to alcohol-based hand sanitizers.


----------



## dapaterson

So, at the pub, a shot of vodka to sanitize your mouth before sipping on your beer?


----------



## Haggis

dapaterson said:


> So, at the pub, a shot of vodka to sanitize your mouth before sipping on your beer?


Dram today.  Then another dram.  Then some single malt.  Beer tomorrow.


----------



## dapaterson

There's no exclusive OR between drama, single malt, vodka and beer.


----------



## Jarnhamar

OceanBonfire said:


> Interesting new info about Omicron:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron survives longer on plastic, skin than prior variants; nose swabbing found best for rapid tests
> 
> 
> The following is a summary of some recent studies on COVID-19. They include research that warrants further study to corroborate the findings and that has yet to be certified by peer review.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com



In the Plague Inc. mobile phone game I'm pretty sure you can buy upgrades for your virus to make it more transmissible and last longer, among other mutations. 

_reaches for tinfoil_


----------



## dimsum

PuckChaser said:


> So what? Is this some kind of garbage gotcha moment where Jan 6 is a boogeyman? I know what you want to hear, but thankfully Freedom of Expression is the only charter right COVID hasn't spit on yet.


I'd call it a boogeyman if the guy didn't outright say it.  It's a direct quote.  It wasn't clipped or made to sound like he was saying something else.

"We'll all go to Parliament and show them what's what" would make Jan 6 look like a boogeyman.  This is one step away from the Bond villain telling him what they are (well, _someone should be_) planning on doing.  

I'm not law enforcement, but it sounds an awful lot like a threat.


----------



## PuckChaser

Man, I wish the Liberals and NDP were held to account for the people in the causes they support like the Tories are torched everytime some dumbass acts out like that yellow star. Half of the Liberal staffers would be gone for their antisemitic crap about Israel.

I get it, you guys want to hate them. That's fine, live for the rest of your life with a vax pass for a cold, boosters every 6 months and the social credit system that follows from having to prove you're "clean" to partake in public. Or you can be on the right side of history and support countries like the UK who fared exponentially worse than us and are tossing all those things away.


----------



## Remius

Hate who exactly? 

And you really believe we’ll have vacc passports forever? 

Boosters every year sure, like the flu shot. 

But really?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> Hate who exactly?
> 
> And you really believe we’ll have vacc passports forever?
> 
> Boosters every year sure, like the flu shot.
> 
> But really?



Just in case Canada's right wing extremists weren't paranoid enough 

The Resilience of Online Right-Wing Extremism in Canada​_20th July 2021

A_ _new report from ISD__ documents the latest findings of a study that tracks the online ecosystems used by right-wing extremists in Canada. This analysis forms part of a larger study into Canadian right-wing extremism, led by a team of researchers at __Ontario Tech University__ (OTU) in partnership with __Michigan State University__ and the __University of New Brunswick__.

Drawing on the full analysis provided in the report –_* which looks at over 3 million messages sent by over 2,400 groups, channels and accounts associated with Canadian right-wing extremism across Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, 4chan, and Telegram*_ – this Dispatch presents the key trends in the online activity of Canadian right-wing extremists in 2020._









						The Resilience of Online Right-Wing Extremism in Canada
					

This Dispatch outlines key takeaways from a new ISD study that tracked the online ecosystems used by right-wing extremists in Canada in 2020.



					www.isdglobal.org


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

"Right side of history"? ??

Pretty presumptive. ....


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> "Right side of history"? ??
> 
> Pretty presumptive. ....


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


>



Nothing new about hate.





__





						holocaust covid - Google Search
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Misses muffett

dapaterson said:


> So, at the pub, a shot of vodka to sanitize your mouth before sipping on your beer?


As long as you swish it for 15 seconds


----------



## Misses muffett

ModlrMike said:


> As someone who's been dealing with this first hand, I assure you, they're not.


Theyre not what? Vaccines are not buying time or majority are not obese?


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> It sounds like the hyperbolic language you hear when a bunch of pissed off people get together and talk. You also cut the quote off to support your narrative. He went on to say "Not from our guys though, but from somebody. I'd like to see that." (paraphrase)
> 
> That is not a threat.
> 
> The website for this convoy is almost at 600,000 signed up members. Last estimate from a couple of days ago for participants was 500,000 and growing fast. Support is in the millions with best wishes from the Netherlands, Slovenia, Poland and many other countries. American truckers have been coming north to help. The go fund me is currently around $4.5 million.
> 
> And you decide to zero in on this one person as an example as what these millions of Canadians, that are participating and supporting this movement are really all about. Millions of Canadians who are fearful of what this PM is going to do, where he's taking us and what our country will look like when he's done. What they can afford for the next meal or whether they'll have a roof over their heads. Zero compassion for your fellow Canadians because of one quote.
> 
> While I'm here, let's dispell your other canard about special interests stealing the donations and laughing about it. You can read how wrong you were about it straight from the horses mouth. BTW, your particular bent on this was started by none other than Gerald Butts on Twitter and good little communists are trying to make it stick.
> View attachment 68250


Ah so Tamara Lich says it’s all good.  If the people that donated are satisfied with a reassuring Facebook post then who  are we to argue.  

But I’m willing to bet in a few months we’ll be reading about “where did all the money go”.   Wouldn’t be the first time, won’t be the last.


----------



## Remius

In other news.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-top-doctor-concerned-with-vaccination-uptake-at-ocdc-1.6327330
		


If you want to go to jail, you need two shots. Otherwise access should be denied.  😜


----------



## Halifax Tar

Holy crap the left is coming around...


----------



## dimsum

Halifax Tar said:


> Holy crap the left is coming around...


Maybe the extreme left.  There are some of us that remember what the whole mask thing was about - keeping hospitalizations low to relieve stress on hospitals.  

There are also some of us that remember that science is literally "fuck around [hypothesis, experiments] and find out [conclusions, leading to other hypotheses and experiments]".  The meme is actually correct.  So when science seemingly changes its stance and some people get up in arms that they're "reversing course", it's because they're taking the latest info and incorporating it into their new hypothesis.  Science isn't a straight line and people for some reason can't figure that out.

So yeah, I agree with what the panelists say.  I also realize that maybe in a year, they are both wrong and we have to go back to the drawing board and try something else.  

Because that's what happens with science.


----------



## FSTO

dimsum said:


> Remius already mentioned it it so I won't talk about trusting the "oh yeah we totally have it in hand" line on FB, linked to a Protonmail account which is specifically designed to be anonymous.
> 
> I'm more concerned that she never mentions who the accountants and lawyers are, or what firm they work for (or working for themselves, etc).  So how are the supporters supposed to check whether or not she's lying?  If she is so sure of their support, she would loudly be saying "I am working with XYZ accountant and ABC lawyers to ensure that the money gets to where it's needed."  The fact that they don't is _yet_ another red flag.


Well, you pays your money, you takes your chances! I learned that the hard way at a midway back in the 70's. LOL! Not my money, not my monkey.....


----------



## ModlrMike

dimsum said:


> Maybe the extreme left.  There are some of us that remember what the whole mask thing was about - keeping hospitalizations low to relieve stress on hospitals.
> 
> There are also some of us that remember that science is literally "fuck around [hypothesis, experiments] and find out [conclusions, leading to other hypotheses and experiments]".  The meme is actually correct.  So when science seemingly changes its stance and some people get up in arms that they're "reversing course", it's because they're taking the latest info and incorporating it into their new hypothesis.  Science isn't a straight line and people for some reason can't figure that out.


Science is about the process, not the outcome. This is why we have flat earthers; because people don't understand science.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I think this article belongs here as well 

Thank you @Kirkhill 









						The Dissidents
					

A handful of scientists and doctors have spent the past two years defending mainstream public health approaches and scientific rigor against the pandemic response bureaucracy




					www.tabletmag.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The article is a tad dated, Nov 21, but not dated enough that it isn't topical.

From The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is among the world's oldest and best-known general medical journals.









						The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing
					

High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19...



					www.thelancet.com
				




The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing​


----------



## Remius

What’s funny about those that have lost resiliency in Ontario is that we have an actual roadmap to reopening.  Tough it out.  March is almost upon us.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Wait?!   Are these the same Mom and Pop shops/folks that you have previously stated are horribly broke because of lockdowns, mandates, Masks, etc??   Guess things aren't that bad....


----------



## Blackadder1916

Fishbone Jones said:


> The article is a tad dated, Nov 21, but not dated enough that it isn't topical.
> 
> From The Lancet is a weekly *peer-reviewed* general medical journal. It is among the world's oldest and best-known general medical journals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing
> 
> 
> High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19...
> 
> 
> 
> www.thelancet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The epidemiological relevance of the COVID-19-vaccinated population is increasing​



A week ago I posted in this thread my opinion on the reliance of "peer review" as relating to the quality of arguments presented in this forum.  I readily agree that The Lancet (original menu and all its expanded associated flavours) is near the top of the food chain in English language medical journals so I'm not suggesting that they don't apply rigor in reviewing reports submitted for publication, however as PMedMoe pointed out this is a letter to the editor.  My assumption is, that while they take care in selecting the letters that they publish, such letters are not subject to the same rigorous peer review process.

I have no desire to do battle with Prof. Dr. Kampf (_pun intended_).  His letter to the editor, though, does beg the question - Huh?  Yes, I'm deliberately being sarcastic, but I was left, after reading his letter, wondering what was the point.  Or more specifically, what was your point in providing the link?

I've extracted two passages from Prof. Kampf's letter that suggests to me what I think he is trying to say (the rest of the letter appears to be the points he decided to use from the studies/reports/commentary that he used as references in his argument).



> High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epidemiological relevance of COVID-19 vaccinated individuals is increasing. . . .
> 
> . . . Many decisionmakers assume that the vaccinated can be excluded as a source of transmission. It appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding about public health control measures.



While I don't necessarily disagree with an assumption that decisionmakers seem to be minimizing the relevance of the vaccinated in their decision making process, I believe it is a stretch to think that such is totally ignored in public health planning.  It may be more likely that the greater attention paid to encouraging the unvaccinated contributes to a perception that vaccinated transmission rates don't figure in the decision making.  None of the references that he provided supports his contention of such "gross negligence"; what their findings were, variously:

Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study


> Our findings help to explain how and why the delta variant is being transmitted so effectively in populations with high vaccine coverage. Although current vaccines remain effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination alone is not sufficient to prevent all transmission of the delta variant in the household setting, where exposure is close and prolonged. Increasing population immunity via booster programmes and vaccination of teenagers will help to increase the currently limited effect of vaccination on transmission, but our analysis suggests that direct protection of individuals at risk of severe outcomes, via vaccination and non-pharmacological interventions, will remain central to containing the burden of disease caused by the delta variant.



Nosocomial outbreak caused by the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant in a highly vaccinated population, Israel, July 2021


> This nosocomial outbreak exemplifies the high transmissibility of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant among twice vaccinated and masked individuals. This suggests some waning of immunity, albeit still providing protection for individuals without comorbidities. However, a third vaccine dose may be needed, particularly in individuals with risk factors for severe COVID-19. Appropriate use of masks, especially in high-risk settings is advised.



Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States


> In summary, even as efforts should be made to encourage populations to get vaccinated it should be done so with humility and respect. Stigmatizing populations can do more harm than good. Importantly, other non-pharmacological prevention efforts (e.g., the importance of basic public health hygiene with regards to maintaining safe distance or handwashing, promoting better frequent and cheaper forms of testing) needs to be renewed in order to strike the balance of learning to live with COVID-19 in the same manner we continue to live a 100 years later with various seasonal alterations of the 1918 Influenza virus.



And I would like to thank you for the link to The Lancet.  While I have read it occasionally over the years, one of the benefits to this pandemic (_he said sardonically_) is wider "free' access to many of the prestigious journals that previously required a subscription (either personal or institutional - especially when one no longer works for the institution).  Sporadically over today, I spent an enjoyable time reading the various links that contributed to this post and several other topics of discussion.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Here we go ?

Boston hospital denies heart transplant to patient not vaccinated against COVID-19​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/heart-transplant-denied-covid-vaccine-1.6329196?cmp=rss&fbclid=IwAR1gtl7mN4J4rmKXOKayyB4MkB5zq_NxPRvfIguLPjF-8Ll9b5psmtylsBg


----------



## Altair

Halifax Tar said:


> Here we go ?
> 
> Boston hospital denies heart transplant to patient not vaccinated against COVID-19​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/heart-transplant-denied-covid-vaccine-1.6329196?cmp=rss&fbclid=IwAR1gtl7mN4J4rmKXOKayyB4MkB5zq_NxPRvfIguLPjF-8Ll9b5psmtylsBg


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Tell them you're still going to smoke and drink and you'll get the same denial form.
Those precious pieces are for those who'll do thier best to honor the doners, and the donor's family, by looking after themselves on the second chance given.


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Tell them you're still going to smoke and drink and you'll get the same denial form.
> Those precious pieces are for those who'll do thier best to honor the doners, and the donor's family, by looking after themselves on the second chance given.


Baby steps.


----------



## PMedMoe

Something looked at in potential organ recipients is their ability to manage their health before and after transplant.

"The transplant center will be looking for indications that you are able to manage your health and that you care about maintaining your health whenever possible. For example, if you are waiting for a kidney transplant but you are not following your healthcare provider’s instructions, you may not be considered a candidate. The post-transplant regime is rigorous and requires diligence; your ability to follow your current regimen will be considered an indication of your willingness to take care of yourself after surgery. Non-compliance with important health maintenance instructions, such as drinking alcohol while in treatment for a liver problem, could exclude an individual from the liver transplant list."
Source: How to Get on the Waiting List for an Organ Transplant

Pretty sure eating well, no drinking, exercise and up to date on vaccinations would all fall under that heading.

You can be turned down for several health reasons, cancer diagnosis, obesity, etc.


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> Here we go ?
> 
> Boston hospital denies heart transplant to patient not vaccinated against COVID-19​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/heart-transplant-denied-covid-vaccine-1.6329196?cmp=rss&fbclid=IwAR1gtl7mN4J4rmKXOKayyB4MkB5zq_NxPRvfIguLPjF-8Ll9b5psmtylsBg


The family is using the word ‘denied.’  The hospital said ‘ineligible.’  Denied, reduce priority, ineligible…all a result of the hospital’s assessment that he is not the best candidate to receive the heart of someone who died and offered the gift of life to someone else.



> "D.J. is an informed patient," Tracey Ferguson said in a brief interview at her home in Mendon, about 50 kilometres southwest of Boston. "He wants to be assured by his doctors that his condition would not be worse or fatal with this COVID vaccine."



And if DJ’s choice as an informed patient is that he is at greater risk of dying through vaccination than he is of receiving a new heart to replace his current failing heart, then…well, I supposed that’s his flavour of ‘informed.’   He has freedom of choice to act on his informed perspective.


----------



## winds_13

Apparently Sweden has decided not to "believe in Science".



			Redirect Notice


----------



## Mick

winds_13 said:


> Apparently Sweden has decided not to "believe in Science".
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


"With the knowledge we have today, with a low risk for serious disease for kids, we don't see any clear benefit with vaccinating them," Health Agency official Britta Bjorkholm told a news conference.

She added that *the decision could be revisited if the research changed *or if a new variant changed the pandemic. *Kids in high-risk groups can already get the vaccine*."

Soooo what "science" is being disbelieved?


----------



## Quirky

Mick said:


> Soooo what "science" is being disbelieved?



Canada science: vaccinate kids
Sweden science: not necessary to vaccinate kids.

Depends on which science you want to believe at this point.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quirky said:


> Canada science: vaccinate kids
> Sweden science: not necessary to vaccinate kids.
> 
> Depends on which science you want to believe at this point.


Exactly how science should be....


----------



## winds_13

Mick, with the Canadian stance on vaccination for children being opposite to that taken by Sweden, then I suppose it is Canadian "science" that is being disbelieved? Or can opposite stances taken from the same data both be following science? ...but that would mean that our conclusions could not be defended by calling people "science deniers".









						More children in Canada need to get their COVID-19 jabs, Trudeau says - National | Globalnews.ca
					

"Almost half of kids across this country have gotten their vaccine. ... We need to get more, so please ask your parents if you can get vaccinated," Trudeau said.




					www.google.com
				




Perhaps it was not clear, but my use of quotations around, "believe in science", was to highlight the dogmatic approach that appears to have taken over the vaccination campaign in Canada.


----------



## Mick

Quirky said:


> Canada science: vaccinate kids
> Sweden science: not necessary to vaccinate kids.
> 
> Depends on which science you want to believe at this point.



I think you're confusing public policy with science.  

The latter should (hopefully) inform the former, which, along with many other variables, will obviously result in varying policies between jurisdictions.


----------



## Mick

winds_13 said:


> Mick, with the Canadian stance on vaccination for children being opposite to that taken by Sweden, then I suppose it is Canadian "science" that is being disbelieved? Or can opposite stances taken from the same data both be following science? ...but that would mean that our conclusions could not be defended by calling people "science deniers".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More children in Canada need to get their COVID-19 jabs, Trudeau says - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> "Almost half of kids across this country have gotten their vaccine. ... We need to get more, so please ask your parents if you can get vaccinated," Trudeau said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps it was not clear, but my use of quotations around, "believe in science", was to highlight the dogmatic approach that appears to have taken over the vaccination campaign in Canada.



Yes, the vaccination policies are different - but I don't believe it's a case of "Canadian Science" vs "Swedish Science".

Point taken re: apparent dogmatism though.  I would agree that accusations of "science denier" is tossed out far too easily.


----------



## Quirky

Mick said:


> I think you're confusing public policy with science.
> 
> The latter should (hopefully) inform the former, which, along with many other variables, will obviously result in varying policies between jurisdictions.


Id like to know what’s in Quebecs water, besides sewage from Montreal’s raw waste dumps into its rivers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Laying science aside for a moment, why would anyone trust trudeau to tell us the truth? If he says it's good for us, you can probably make book on it killing us. This is a guy that hits most of the characteristics of a pathological liar. If not all of them. 15 signs and symptoms that help identify a pathological liar - Familyandrelations Blog.

He likes using the phrase "the science is settled." Science is never settled.


----------



## Good2Golf

Fishbone Jones said:


> He likes using the phrase "the science is settled." Science is never settled.


Yup, settled.  As we know, SARS CoV-2 virus is spread via surface contact, so wash your hands and disinfect surfaces regularly…


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> This is a guy that hits most of the characteristics of a pathological liar. If not all of them. 15 signs and symptoms that help identify a pathological liar - Familyandrelations Blog.



Like pretty much *all* politicians.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Good2Golf said:


> Yup, settled.  As we know, SARS CoV-2 virus is spread via surface contact, so wash your hands and disinfect surfaces regularly…


First, we never stop learning.
Second, the scientific consensus is frequently wrong.
Third, scientists are just as capable of bias as anyone else









						Settled science part 1: Is science ever actually settled?
					

We are constantly told that “everyone has a right to their opinion” and “there are two sides to every story.” Our entire news system is predicated on the notion that we need…




					thelogicofscience.com
				



The topic of settled science is a complicated one. You see, science doesn’t deal in proofs (with the exception of mathematical proofs in certain areas of physics). Rather, it deals in probabilities. In other words, it tells us what is most likely true, but it does not tell us what is absolutely true. It is inherently incapable of proving anything with 100% certainty because we are inherently incapable of knowing everything, which means that we always have to acknowledge the possibility that there is some other piece of evidence which eludes us. Another way to think about this is that science tells us what is correct _given the current evidence_, but it cannot completely eliminate the possibility of unknown evidence. So in the strictest sense, there is no such thing as “settled science.” It is always possible that some new discovery will overturn previous ideas, _but_, and this is the really important part, that doesn’t give you the right the _assume _that other evidence is out there. In other words, the fact that something technically might be wrong, doesn’t mean that you can assume it is wrong (that would be logical blunder known as an argument from ignorance fallacy). Many things in science have been so thoroughly tested and so consistently make accurate predictions that it is almost inconceivable that they could be wrong. So even though we cannot be 100% certain that they are correct, we can be 99.9999999% sure, and that is good enough to consider them essentially “settled”.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Exactly how science should be....


That's the part about "science" politicians and policy makers don't want to hear or talk about. Science is a weird mix of collaborative and combativeness. Papers and theories are constantly being torn apart, or new science makes them totally redundant. "The Science" on any issue is only good for today, tomorrow might find it overturned or tossed into the dustbin.


----------



## dimsum

Colin Parkinson said:


> That's the part about "science" politicians and policy makers don't want to hear or talk about. Science is a weird mix of collaborative and combativeness. Papers and theories are constantly being torn apart, or new science makes them totally redundant. "The Science" on any issue is only good for today, tomorrow might find it overturned or tossed into the dustbin.


And that's why using "science" (the static term) as a gotcha doesn't work.  

Example:  I trust the science that these vaccines work, and that while vax'ed people still get Covid and pass it, their effects are much less severe than unvax'ed people.  If new peer-reviewed science (not some person on FB in ALL CAPS) shows that, in fact, that's not the case and someone says "look!  We were wrong the entire time!  Ha!", my response would be "oh cool...you're right" and go with that.  

I guess it takes a bit of mental...flexibility (?) to accept that your views might be off or totally wrong, and be able to follow the current researched view.  But, to others it would look like I was flip-flopping on the issue.


----------



## Good2Golf

The scientific method is highly dependent on what your hypothesis is you seek to prove or disprove.


----------



## Rifleman62

It is, as stated, very, very convenient that the sheltered Trudeau has been exposed to COVID (but tested negative). I which he was exposed as the worst PM ever. He is the coward of the city.









						LILLEY: Intolerant Trudeau divides Canadians while O'Toole shows understanding
					

Justin Trudeau loves to talk about divisiveness being a problem but doesn’t do anything about it other than sow more division.




					torontosun.com
				




LILLEY: Intolerant Trudeau divides Canadians while O'Toole shows understanding - 27 Jan 22​
Extract: “The small fringe minority of people who are on their way to Ottawa, who are holding unacceptable views that they are expressing, do not represent the views of Canadians who have been there for each other, who know that following the science and stepping up to protect each other is the best way to ensure our rights, our freedoms, our values as a country,” Trudeau said Wednesday.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> Whatever.
> 
> No mandate = Let it rip.
> 
> Pick one.


What about other measures? ...masks, distancing, reducing contacts, providing negative tests, and so on.

How did you come to the conclusion that not enforcing punitive mandates on unvaccinated indiciduals is the same as "let it rip"? Why is it now that the virus (now predominately the Omicron variant) is about half as dangerous with similar rates of infection between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals that our only way out of this is to strong arm any vaccine holdouts... we already have a 90% vaccination rate amongst adults, at what point is it enough? 

This is not the position that is being taken in many other Western nations. Just look at the U.K., Denmark, Sweden. 

We are supposed to be living in a Liberal Democracy, where the rights of the individual are paramount. That comes at a cost, such as affording rights to those whose decisions you disagree with and the consequences (such as cancelled surgeries).  The current measures placed on unvacvinated individuals are a major leap towards authoritarian collectivism. The primacy of individual rights and civil liberties is not a right-wing political philosophy, it is the definition of Liberalism... why is it that the "right-wing" political parties in Canada are the only ones promoting "left-wing" Liberalism, the principle that The Liberal Party of Canada was founded around.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> The scientific method is highly dependent on what your hypothesis is you seek to prove or disprove.



"Scientific method" is independent.  It is basically another variation of a decision loop.  Strictly speaking, "disproof" is not sought (first you'd have to theorize what might constitute disproof, but then it would just be part of the hypothesis - "X" can't exist - and you'd seek evidence of "X").  Hypotheses have consequences which yield predictions, and people look for confirmation of predictions.  If something predicted is not found, or something is found which contradicts the hypothesis, the hypothesis must be modified.

The problem with most debates over science and policy is that the hypotheses are often statistical in nature and convenient evidence is misused as a cover for ideological preferences and plain emotions.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> I say that because when they were firing unvaccinated city employees by the hundreds in October, I don't recall any protests against the mayor.
> 
> 99% got their shots, and kept their jobs.
> 
> Was not an option. Yet, I recall no protests against the mayor.


What do you mean by other measures "were not an option". They were not options offered by many governments in Canada (Federal, municipal) but yhe option of regular testing for unvaccinated individuals was offered in other jurisdictions. Biden's failed workplace mandate included the option of testing.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> What do you mean by other measures "were not an option".



I mean what I said.

In the town I live, and worked,


> other measures "were not an option".



City employees not double-vaxxed were put on unpaid leave as of 31 Oct.

Fired on 5 Jan.


----------



## Furniture

mariomike said:


> I mean what I said.
> 
> In the town I live, and worked,
> 
> 
> City employees not double-vaxxed were put on unpaid leave as of 31 Oct.
> 
> Fired on 5 Jan.


That kind of goes back to what people who are against mandates are talking about... It's not the vaccine that is the problem, it's that governments are forcing people to choose between employment and vaccines that is the issue.


----------



## Rifleman62

Coward  of the nation.
Staff Edit:   Lets stop with the name calling lest we slip into places other lesser forums go.  Consider this a wrist slap and next time just explain your position of why you think this.
Bruce









						FIRST READING: Trudeau's very odd COVID isolation
					

There's already another election brewing (and it might be Freeland v. Poilievre)




					nationalpost.com
				




FIRST READING: Trudeau's very odd COVID isolation​_First Reading is a daily newsletter keeping you posted on the travails of Canadian politicos, all curated by the National Post’s own Tristin Hopper. To get an early version sent direct to your inbox every Monday to Thursday at 6 p.m. ET (and 9 a.m. on Sundays), sign up here._


Just as hundreds of truckers converge on Ottawa to protest COVID mandates, *Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced that he is entering isolation for five days after coming into contact with someone who tested positive for COVID-19* . “I feel fine and will be working from home,” Trudeau wrote on Twitter.

*It’s a weird thing to do at this stage of the pandemic* , given that many health authorities are now explicitly telling Canadians not to bother isolating if they’re asymptomatic. With Omicron spreading so widely, epidemiologists are generally working from the premise that almost everyone has been exposed to COVID-19 at some point, and to take precautions only in special circumstances. Ontario’s official public health guidelines advise people in Trudeau’s situation to continue living their lives, but to avoid “high-risk settings” such as senior’s homes. Trudeau claims he is following the guidelines of Ottawa Health, but the health authority’s public guidelines only advise a five day isolation period in the case that someone is unvaccinated. Not only is Trudeau thrice-vaccinated, but a rapid test that he took after the alleged exposure turned up negative.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Rifleman62 said:


> FIRST READING: Trudeau's very odd COVID isolation​


The Prime Minister just experiences Covid19 differently.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

winds_13 said:


> We are supposed to be living in a Liberal Democracy, where the rights of the individual are paramount.


Rights have limitations otherwise your "Liberal Democracy" can't exist....


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> We haven't reached the kind of crisis that should limit individual rights.


So you ARE saying all of the measures society took alleviated us from "that" type of crisis,......thanks for coming around.


----------



## dimsum

winds_13 said:


> But if there is no difference in risk of spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated at this point, then what is the reason for the quarantine? To reduce that individuals risk of hospitalization?


To reduce the risk of spreading to other unvaccinated people.  Not all people can be vaccinated, and there are still groups that aren't (kids under the age of 5, for instance).


----------



## PMedMoe

winds_13 said:


> But if there is no difference in risk of spread between vaccinated and unvaccinated at this point, then what is the reason for the quarantine? To reduce that individuals risk of hospitalization?



Is that a fact?  No, vaccinated people are not ‘just as infectious’ as unvaccinated people if they get COVID


----------



## winds_13

PMedMoe said:


> Is that a fact?  No, vaccinated people are not ‘just as infectious’ as unvaccinated people if they get COVID


Can you provide links to a more recent study that compares spread of the Omicron variant?

Also, that article states:

"A study in medical journal The Lancet followed 602 primary close contacts of 471 people with COVID. It documented transmission and viral load in the group."

"It found there were no differences in _peak_ viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. It also showed only a small decrease in the number of infections in household members between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, suggesting a similar level of infectiousness."

The article suggests that vaccinated individuals are less likely to spread the virus because they were, at the time, less likely to contract it. This is no longer the case.

Data from many regions, including Ontario, has shown highest case rates amongst vaccinated individuals since the appearance of the Omicron variant. How much more infectious are unvaccinated people at this time?


----------



## PMedMoe

winds_13 said:


> Can you provide links to a more recent study that compares spread of the Omicron variant?
> 
> Data from many regions, including Ontario, has shown highest case rates amongst vaccinated individuals since the appearance of the Omicron variant. How much more infectious are unvaccinated people at this time?


That's actually what I was looking for but it's proving difficult to find.

As far as the high case rate among vaccinated individuals, try looking at percentages as opposed to just case counts.  The Statistics Behind “Breakthrough” Infections

Anyway, I must be lousy at searching (probably as bad as I am at math) because I can't find what I actually want to say.


----------



## winds_13

PMedMoe said:


> That's actually what I was looking for but it's proving difficult to find.
> 
> As far as the high case rate among vaccinated individuals, try looking at percentages as opposed to just case counts.  The Statistics Behind “Breakthrough” Infections.
> 
> Anyway, I must be lousy at searching (probably as bad as I am at math) because I can't find what I actually want to say.


PMedMoe, I was talking about percentages, or "rate" of infection. It seems just recently that the case rate amongst the unvaccinated in Ontario has become about on par with those that are vaccinated (rather than being lower) for the first time in well over a month. Although it also shows the lowest rate amongst those "partially vaccinated", so it may be a reasonable hypothesis that recency of vaccination is a major factor (those partially vaccinated are mostly within one mknth of their first dose), given that many have recently received their booster shots... how often can we be expected to get boosters though, every 3 months in perpetuity?






						Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
					






					covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## suffolkowner

winds_13 said:


> Can you provide links to a more recent study that compares spread of the Omicron variant?
> 
> Also, that article states:
> 
> "A study in medical journal The Lancet followed 602 primary close contacts of 471 people with COVID. It documented transmission and viral load in the group."
> 
> "It found there were no differences in _peak_ viral loads between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. It also showed only a small decrease in the number of infections in household members between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, suggesting a similar level of infectiousness."
> 
> The article suggests that vaccinated individuals are less likely to spread the virus because they were, at the time, less likely to contract it. This is no longer the case.
> 
> Data from many regions, including Ontario, has shown highest case rates amongst vaccinated individuals since the appearance of the Omicron variant. How much more infectious are unvaccinated people at this time?








						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




"To date, there is little direct real-world evidence about the effects of vaccination on SARS-CoV-2 transmission. A few studies have investigated the reduction in transmission in households and among healthcare workers (_3__, __5__, __6_). Other studies have found indirect evidence for a likely effect of the vaccine on transmission by demonstrating reduced viral load in the upper respiratory tract of infected individuals (_7_–_11_). These studies have mostly focused on the period when the Alpha variant was the dominant strain and have not examined the effects on transmission following emergence of the Delta variant (_12_)."


This study provides a small counterpoint. I think at this stage its a little early to be betting on the outcome of the scientific literature. However for a vaccinated or exposed individual with acquired natural immunity to pose a similar risk to others as an naive or unvacccinated individual seems counter intuitive to me


----------



## winds_13

suffolkowner said:


> Science | AAAS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.science.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "To date, there is little direct real-world evidence about the effects of vaccination on SARS-CoV-2 transmission. A few studies have investigated the reduction in transmission in households and among healthcare workers (_3__, __5__, __6_). Other studies have found indirect evidence for a likely effect of the vaccine on transmission by demonstrating reduced viral load in the upper respiratory tract of infected individuals (_7_–_11_). These studies have mostly focused on the period when the Alpha variant was the dominant strain and have not examined the effects on transmission following emergence of the Delta variant (_12_)."
> 
> 
> This study provides a small counterpoint. I think at this stage its a little early to be betting on the outcome of the scientific literature. However for a vaccinated or exposed individual with acquired natural immunity to pose a similar risk to others as an naive or unvacccinated individual seems counter intuitive to me


So, would you suggest that acquired natural immunity after exposure to the virus should be sufficient in this time of vaccine passports and workplace vaccine mandates? Or is natural immunity not good enough?


----------



## suffolkowner

winds_13 said:


> So, would you suggest that acquired natural immunity after exposure to the virus should be sufficient in this time of vaccine passports and workplace vaccine mandates? Or is natural immunity not good enough?


I think what everyone has to keep in mind is that as Covid-19 keeps mutating and new successful variants supplant previous ones across the population it is going to stress the immune systems response and erode the effectiveness of vaccination and previously acquired natural immunity. This is not out of line with endemic circulating human coronaviruses or any virus for that matter. We have been lucky that the latest version is relatively mild, but it would be fool hardy to depend on that. As far as vaccine mandates go I expect that it is just a matter of time before they will be redundant


----------



## PMedMoe

winds_13 said:


> PMedMoe, I was talking about percentages, or "rate" of infection. It seems just recently that the case rate amongst the unvaccinated in Ontario has become about on par with those that are vaccinated (rather than being lower) for the first time in well over a month. Although it also shows the lowest rate amongst those "partially vaccinated", so it may be a reasonable hypothesis that recency of vaccination is a major factor (those partially vaccinated are mostly within one mknth of their first dose), given that many have recently received their booster shots... how often can we be expected to get boosters though, every 3 months in perpetuity?



I'm still trying to explain what I mean. Yes, the charts show more cases in vaccinated people, but there are more vaccinated people (85%).

"Consider a theoretical scenario in which 100% of a population is vaccinated. Since vaccines are not perfect, there will be some “breakthrough” infections, and in such a case, 100% of infections will be among vaccinated people! That does not mean vaccines do not work. To determine vaccine efficacy in this case, we would need to know the total number of vaccinated and unvaccinated people"

So just having case numbers is not indicative of vaccine efficacy.

And unvaccinated (or partially vaccinated) individuals are still about 50% of ICU admissions. Hospitalizations by vaccination status


----------



## winds_13

PMedMoe said:


> I'm still trying to explain what I mean. Yes, the charts show more cases in vaccinated people, but there are more vaccinated people (85%).
> 
> "Consider a theoretical scenario in which 100% of a population is vaccinated. Since vaccines are not perfect, there will be some “breakthrough” infections, and in such a case, 100% of infections will be among vaccinated people! That does not mean vaccines do not work. To determine vaccine efficacy in this case, we would need to know the total number of vaccinated and unvaccinated people"
> 
> So just having case numbers is not indicative of vaccine efficacy.
> 
> And unvaccinated (or partially vaccinated) individuals are still about 50% of ICU admissions. Hospitalizations by vaccination status


I'm not arguing against vaccination or their ability to reduce severe reactions that require hospitalization. Again though, the data that I linked compares the recent rate of cases in Ontario, given as a rate per 100 000 people. The website explains "Rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 is calculated by dividing the number of cases for a vaccination status, by the total number of people with the same vaccination status, and then multiplying by 100,000." So I think the data is displaying what you are looking for, and it shows negligible difference in cases between vaccinated and unvaccinated Ontarians throughout the past 2 months (with a higher case incidence amongst vaccinated individuals for most of that time).

I keep pointing to this data because the main justification for workplace vaccine mandates has been that unvaccinated individuals pose greater risk to those that they come into contact with. This largely does not seem to be the case, at least not anymore. While those who are unvaccinated are likely at some degree greater risk of hospitalization (although hospitalization rates differ greatly by age, with the most elderly still being the most likely to require hospitalization), is this reason to not allow them to work, even "from home"? This is somehow not simply a policy designed to coerce people into making a certain medical decision?


----------



## winds_13

dimsum said:


> Interestingly, ON is loosening regulations on 31 Jan.  Indoor dining (50% capacity), indoor sports (same restrictions)...
> 
> Planned a month or more before this shitshow, of course, but I have 150% confidence that they'll say they had a part to play.


Dimsum, I am not aware of any plans yet for Ontario to abandon its vaccine passport system (unlike the U.K.). So, unvaccinated Ontarians will still not be able to dine indoors, attend sporting events, go to the gym, etc. This is in addition to the federal restrictions on travel and workplace mandates for federally regulated industries. In Quebec, unvaccinated individuals can no longer shop at large box stores, such as Costco and Canadian Tire, unless they mainly sell groceries (apparently Costco does not fall into this category).

Maybe this is why the people involved in the convoy are so fed up?


----------



## kev994

PMedMoe said:


> I'm still trying to explain what I mean. Yes, the charts show more cases in vaccinated people, but there are more vaccinated people (85%).
> 
> "Consider a theoretical scenario in which 100% of a population is vaccinated. Since vaccines are not perfect, there will be some “breakthrough” infections, and in such a case, 100% of infections will be among vaccinated people! That does not mean vaccines do not work. To determine vaccine efficacy in this case, we would need to know the total number of vaccinated and unvaccinated people"
> 
> So just having case numbers is not indicative of vaccine efficacy.
> 
> And unvaccinated (or partially vaccinated) individuals are still about 50% of ICU admissions. Hospitalizations by vaccination status


The source that he’s provided (Ontario Public Health) has accounted for that; it’s per 100k in that group


----------



## Good2Golf

…meanwhile, over in Putin’s neck of the woods:

*Russia Sees Record Population Decline As Excess Deaths Hit 1M*


> *Russia experienced its largest population decline in 2021 since the end of the Soviet Union.  *
> 
> Russia recorded almost one million excess deaths between the start of the pandemic and the end of 2021, as the country also reported its sharpest annual fall in population since the fall of the Soviet Union.
> 
> Pushed down by record numbers of coronavirus fatalities and an already aging population, Russia's natural population declined by more than one million people during 2021 alone, the Rosstat statistics agency reported Friday.
> 
> 
> It also said that more than 215,000 Russians died of all causes in December 2021 — 42% more than in the same month of 2019, before the outbreak of the coronavirus — and that some 662,000 people had succumbed to the disease since March 2020. That number is more than twice what has been reported by the government’s taskforce, which uses a different methodology and is reported daily by state media.
> 
> Independent demographers have repeatedly accused Russia of undercounting deaths associated with the coronavirus and downplayingthe severity of the disease. The revelation that the country’s population shrank faster in 2021 than in any of the previous 30 years has only added fuel to those charges.
> 
> Experts say excess fatalities — which measurethe increase in all deaths recorded throughout the pandemic compared with the pre-coronavirus period — is the most accurate measurement of the human cost of the virus.
> 
> Russia has now recorded at least 995,000 excess deaths since March 2020, according to The Moscow Times’ calculations comparing fatalities in pandemic months with those recorded in 2019. Many demographers, including former Rosstat analyst Alexei Raksha and Tubingen University statistician Dmitry Kobak, say Russia’s true excess death toll could be higher, based on declining mortality trends in the years before the pandemic.
> Excess fatalities​Monthly fatalities across Russia.
> 
> Russia has recorded 995,000 more deaths since the start of the pandemic compared to the same months of 2019.
> 
> Critics have accused the Kremlin of prioritizing the country’s economy and refusing to introduce mobility restrictions even as cases surged and hospitals became overwhelmed on multiple occasions over the last 18 months. Russia had only one short lockdown during spring 2020.
> 
> More than half the Russian population remains unvaccinated against Covid-19 and the country is currently reporting record-high case numbers. The vaccination drive has practically ground to a halt in recent months, as nearly all Russians who say they are prepared to be vaccinated have already taken a jab.
> 
> Russia has seen more excess fatalities than any other country in the world except India.
> 
> The Rosstat figures showed that mortality rates declined in December 2021 from levels seen in previous months, which had been the country’s most deadly period in decades. But a surge in Omicron infections since the start of the year has set back Russia’s latest efforts to stem the pandemic.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dimsum said:


> And that's why using "science" (the static term) as a gotcha doesn't work.
> 
> Example:  I trust the science that these vaccines work, and that while vax'ed people still get Covid and pass it, their effects are much less severe than unvax'ed people.  If new peer-reviewed science (not some person on FB in ALL CAPS) shows that, in fact, that's not the case and someone says "look!  We were wrong the entire time!  Ha!", my response would be "oh cool...you're right" and go with that.
> 
> I guess it takes a bit of mental...flexibility (?) to accept that your views might be off or totally wrong, and be able to follow the current researched view.  But, to others it would look like I was flip-flopping on the issue.


There is a lot of concern from doctors and scientists that the new RNA based vaccines cross the blood brain barrier and that opens up a whole lot of potentiel issues both immediate and long term.


----------



## winds_13

lenaitch said:


> "Little medical justification".  Many if not most public health and epidemiologist experts, within and outside government, might disagree.  I hear some folks on social media disagree.
> 
> "Without parliamentary discussion".  True, but show me a democratic system that has every single government decision subject to debate.  Otherwise, parliament would still be debating Wave #1.  The regulations (mandates) are authorized by the Emergencies Act, which was passed in 1988 - by a  Conservative government.
> 
> Civil lawsuits have no direct impact on the legislative authority of Parliament.


Lenaitch, please enlighten me on the expert advice that suggested the vaccine mandate for the core public service should have no accomodation measures for testing unvaccinated individuals or those who work entirely from home (the majority of federal public servants right now). What was the medical justification for not allowing reasonable accomodation measures? Now that case rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated are essentially the same, how do unvaccinated workers pose extra risk to others in the workplace?

This mandate was a significant part of the LPC's last election platform, stating that it would "protect the health and safety of the federal public servants and their communities, across Canada." It was then one of the PM's first actions following re-election, to much fanfare. Is anyone actually suggesting that this mandate has made any significant contribution to lowered transmission across the public service or the country at large?

PSAC, the largest union representing public servants has recently changed their stance on this policy as it pertains to those who primarily work from home, stating:

"Yes, the federal government’s vaccination policy applies to all employees in the core public service, RCMP, CBSA, Correctional Services and all federally regulated workplaces, including employees who are teleworking."

"However, where it can be demonstrated that these workers pose no reasonable threat to the health and safety of their workplaces, PSAC believes that it could be argued that the federal government’s and other employers’ mandatory vaccination policies to place these workers on leave without pay constitutes an abusive and coercive exercise of management authority and could potentially be deemed a breach of privacy."

"The application of the mandatory vaccination policy to these workers could be deemed unreasonable where there is evidence that these teleworkers pose no health and safety risk and where reasonable alternatives are available (i.e. testing) should these workers be exceptionally required to go into the workplace for one-time events (e.g.: meetings, to pick up equipment etc.)"

Does this mean that PSAC is no longer following the advice of virology experts? Are they "denying science"?






						Log in | Public Service Alliance of Canada
					






					psacunion.ca


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Lenaitch, please enlighten me on the expert advice that suggested the vaccine mandate for the core public service should have no accomodation measures for testing unvaccinated individuals or those who work entirely from home (the majority of federal public servants right now). What was the medical justification for not allowing reasonable accomodation measures? Now that case rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated are essentially the same, how do unvaccinated workers pose extra risk to others in the workplace?
> 
> PSAC, the largest union representing public servants has recently changed their stance on this policy as it pertains to those who primarily work from home, stating:
> 
> "Yes, the federal government’s vaccination policy applies to all employees in the core public service, RCMP, CBSA, Correctional Services and all federally regulated workplaces, including employees who are teleworking."
> 
> "However, where it can be demonstrated that these workers pose no reasonable threat to the health and safety of their workplaces, PSAC believes that it could be argued that the federal government’s and other employers’ mandatory vaccination policies to place these workers on leave without pay constitutes an abusive and coercive exercise of management authority and could potentially be deemed a breach of privacy."
> 
> "The application of the mandatory vaccination policy to these workers could be deemed unreasonable where there is evidence that these teleworkers pose no health and safety risk and where reasonable alternatives are available (i.e. testing) should these workers be exceptionally required to go into the workplace for one-time events (e.g.: meetings, to pick up equipment etc.)"
> 
> Does this mean that PSAC is no longer following the advice of virology experts? Are they "denying science"?


They are talking about teleworkers and not necessarily people who are working primarily from home.  While most of the PS is working from home, a vast majority of those are not on telework agreements.  Which means at anytime the PS can be told to show up at their primary place of employment.


----------



## winds_13

Remius said:


> They are talking about teleworkers and not necessarily people who are working primarily from home.  While most of the PS is working from home, a vast majority of those are not on telework agreements.  Which means at anytime the PS can be told to show up at their primary place of employment.



Remius, the question being answered in the PSAC FAQ section is "Do I need to be vaccinated if I am working remotely or teleworking". There is no mention of a formal telework agreement having to be in place for the union to consider the policy to be "an abusive and coercive exercise of management authority" in an individual's case, and the current policy makes no exceptions for those with telework agreements. While the policy technically has caveats for accommodation on prohibited grounds, the decision on approval has arguably become something of a kangaroo court in many departments. The majority of the core public service has been working remotely since the start of the pandemic and still has no plans to return to the office. Even many directorates in Ottawa that have worked in office throughout the pandemic are currently working from home due to the current situation with the Omicron variant.

Are you making an argument that someone without a formal telework agreement, but has worked entirely from home for almost 2 years with no expectation to go back to the office anytime in the near future, poses too much risk to others in the office because of their vaccination status? With case rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals now being roughly equal (in Ontario, case rates are currently highest amongst the vaccinated), what additional threat do they pose to the workplace if they were to return to the office at this point?


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Remius, the question being answered in the PSAC FAQ section is "Do I need to be vaccinated if I am working remotely or teleworking". There is no mention of a formal telework agreement having to be in place for the union to consider the policy to be "an abusive and coercive exercise of management authority" in an individual's case, and the current policy makes no exceptions for those with telework agreements. While the policy technically has caveats for accommodation on prohibited grounds, the decision on approval has arguably become something of a kangaroo court in many departments. The majority of the core public service has been working remotely since the start of the pandemic and still has no plans to return to the office. Even many directorates in Ottawa that have worked in office throughout the pandemic are currently working from home due to the current situation with the Omicron variant.
> 
> Are you making an argument that someone without a formal telework agreement, but has worked entirely from home for almost 2 years with no expectation to go back to the office anytime in the near future, poses too much risk to others in the office because of their vaccination status? With case rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals now being roughly equal (in Ontario, case rates are currently highest amongst the vaccinated), what additional threat do they pose to the workplace if they were to return to the office at this point?


Does not change the fact that anyone not on a telework agreement can be called back at anytime.  I can see where someone on a telework agreement might be an exception.  I’ve already stated that I am not opposed to testing every 2 to 3 days at the employee’s time and expense for the unvaccinated. 

You are being presumptuous about no plans to go back.  Up until Omicron hit our team was making back to work reintegration plans.  My reserve unit is starting back up next week as well.  

We’ve peaked and return to work planning is being done. 

Regardless, vaccination is now a condition of employment.  Even posters on Jobs.gc.ca are starting to include that in their conditions of employment. 

It’s being tested in court and so far the employer is winning.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Omicron is hitting the US really hard:









						Omicron drives US deaths higher than in fall's delta wave
					

Omicron, the highly contagious coronavirus variant sweeping across the country, is driving the daily American death toll higher than during last fall's delta wave, with deaths likely to keep rising for days or even weeks.




					apnews.com


----------



## Remius

winds_13 said:


> Does this loosening of restrictions include any changes for unvaccinated Ontarians, or will they continue to live under the same lockdown restictions that have been in place since September? Is there any indication of an end to the vaccine passport system? ... I guess who cares about others, right?


Masks and passports will stay in place where required apparently. 

I’ve said it from the get go.  I support anyone who does not want the vaccine. I oppose any forced vaccination.  I also support society creating the rules to be able to participate in society.  I don’t care what people choose as long as they are aware of the consequences of their decisions.  It seems they are aware and maki g those choices.  They can make those choices in march as well.


----------



## Gunnar

Remius said:


> Unvaccnated people can eat in a restaurant or bar provided they meet the conditions.


Really?  I’m curious how that would apply, since the conditions I’m familiar with specify vaccination as a condition...


----------



## Remius

Gunnar said:


> Really?  I’m curious how that would apply, since the conditions I’m familiar with specify vaccination as a condition...


Correct.  That is the current condition in place.  Like being refused service for refusing to show ID for booze,  wearing shoes and shirts.  If you don’t meet those then you don’t get served.

This isn’t a new concept.  

The vaccine is available to everyone.  No one is being denied that.  Everyone has the opportunity to meet those conditions.  What they choose to do is their choice to make.


----------



## kratz

The thread has been cleaned up and all Freedom Rally, protesters discussion split to it's own thread.

Returning this thread to all things COVID-19. This will be unlocked shortly when most members have noticed the new thread.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Survey says: Governments are starting to suck at this....

Large majorities of Canadians continue to support vaccine passports, mask mandates​Pandemic still seen as “real threat,” even as public rates governments’ COVID-19 response lower, poll finds.

Several Canadian provinces recently marked the second anniversary of the first cases of COVID-19 being identified.

After the Omicron variant forced Canadians to stay away from family and friends, our views on the pandemic are now slightly better than in December. Just over half of Canadians (52%, up five points) told Research Co. and Glacier Media that the worst of COVID-19 is “behind us,” while about three in 10 (29%, down four points) believe it is “ahead of us.”

At the start of 2022, the numbers do not buttress the narrative of a divided country that has been pushed relentlessly by the loudest of complainers. We continue to see 85% of Canadians referring to COVID-19 as “a real threat,” and a similar proportion (84%, up one point) voicing support for requiring all customers or visitors entering an indoor premise to wear a mask or face covering while inside. In addition, more than seven in 10 Canadians (72%, down four points) are wearing a mask every time they go out.

The concept of “vaccine passports” – allegedly the detonator for a protest that reached Ottawa this past weekend and that somehow combined the worst elements of the Occupy Movement and the Tea Party – is still endorsed by significant majorities of Canadians. More than three in five are in favour of the certificates for travel to other countries (70%, down three points), to other provinces (68%, down three points) and within the same province (62%, down two points).

In addition, practically two-thirds of Canadians continue to believe that “vaccine passports” are a good idea for people who want to go to live sporting events (69%, down two points), visit gyms or fitness facilities (68%, down three points), go to live concerts (also 68%, down three points), attend the cinema or theater (67% down five points) or work at an office (65%, down three points). Support may be lower than it was in December, but certainly not at a level that would suggest Canadians are ready to carry on as if the pandemic had never arrived.

This does not mean that Canadians are remarkably content with their political leaders. Satisfaction with the way the federal government is managing COVID-19 fell by seven points to 56%, with particularly severe drops in Quebec (from 70% to 58%) and British Columbia (from 64% to 54%). Municipal governments across the country also experienced a seven-point drop (from 64% to 57%).

Provincial governments experienced an even more drastic plunge, with the nationwide average shedding 11 points to wind up at 51%. This time, the four most populous provinces experienced a significant trust deficit. Satisfaction fell from 56% to 51% in Ontario. Alberta remains at the bottom of the standings with 33%, down nine points.

British Columbia’s government posted its lowest rating of the entire pandemic at 60%, down eight points. Still, the biggest shock is observed in Quebec, where the notion of taxing the unvaccinated had an immediate impact. Only 55% of Quebecers are satisfied with the way the provincial government is managing the pandemic, down 17 points since December.

Across Canada, 44% of residents (down two points since May 2021) think the measures that are in place in their province to deal with COVID-19 are correct for the situation. Similar proportions of Canadians would like to do more (27%, down two points) or do less (23%, up four points).

The divide is evident in two provinces where, just a few months ago, more than seven in ten residents were happy with how the pandemic was being managed. In Quebec, 34% of residents think the provincial government’s measures go too far. In British Columbia, 27% of residents think not enough has been done – lower than the huge number of disaffected Albertans (42%) but still noteworthy.

Compared to May 2021, at a time when vaccination rollouts were starting to be implemented, fewer Canadians are looking at their provincial governments with full confidence. Fewer residents trust them to respond to a natural disaster (57%, down three points), establish public health guidelines (55%, down three points), release accurate information (53%, down eight points), release complete information (51%, down five points), ensure the sustainability of the health care system (50%, down five points) and spend tax dollars wisely (38%, down five points). All of these indicators are down, showing how difficult it has become to explain what is happening and what may lie ahead.

The proportion of Canadians who regard the pandemic as a real threat has not changed. While public support for “vaccine passports” is down slightly, more than four in five Canadians endorse having to wear a mask inside a store. The noticeable decline this month is not behavioural. It is purely political.

Fewer Canadians are happy with Ottawa, and provincial governments see significantly lower scores this month for different reasons. It is clear that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to engaging with the public as the pandemic nears its third year of existence. In Quebec, people believe the government overreacted. In British Columbia, more than a quarter of residents want a seemingly popular administration to do more.

Opinion: Large majorities of Canadians continue to support vaccine passports, mask mandates


----------



## winds_13

Canadian attitudes are shifting to living with COVID-19: poll​
A study published on Monday by Angus Reid Institute, a non-profit specializing in Canadian opinion research, revealed public opinion has changed over the last couple of weeks concerning the re-opening of communities.

Between January 7-12, a period where Canada was experiencing a peak in COVID-19 cases after the holidays, a poll asking Canadians whether “it’s time to end restrictions and let people self-isolate if they’re at risk” showed that 55 per cent disagreed with more lenient regulations.

But public sentiment changed when asked the same question last week. A slim majority —  54 per cent of those polled — said they agreed with ending all restrictions and allowing Canadians to manage their own level of risk, while 32 per cent strongly agreed.









						Canadian attitudes are shifting to living with COVID-19: poll
					

A second study found nearly three-in-four people who thought they had COVID but didn't get tested said the Omicron variant was less severe




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Colin Parkinson said:


> There is a lot of concern from doctors and scientists that the new RNA based vaccines cross the blood brain barrier and that opens up a whole lot of potentiel issues both immediate and long term.


I would hazard to say that when Doctor Rick Malone, who invented and patented the mRNA vaccine process, voices concerns about the way his invention is being used and the claims being made for it, I'll tend to listen to him.


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> I would hazard to say that when Doctor Rick Malone, *one of the scientists *who *was involved with *invented and patented the mRNA vaccine process



The development of mRNA vaccines was a collaborative effort; Robert Malone contributed to their development, but he is not their inventor

The tangled history of mRNA vaccines

In-Depth: Did Robert Malone invent mRNA vaccines in San Diego?

False Claim: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.

I'm sure there's more out there along the same vein.


----------



## PuckChaser

I wonder if most Canadians would still support vaccine passports if they realized they do absolutely nothing in a post-Delta world? With omicron and beyond they have 0 public health impact to COVID spread and serve only as a failed method to coerce people into it.


----------



## Quirky

PuckChaser said:


> I wonder if most Canadians would still support vaccine passports if they realized they do absolutely nothing in a post-Delta world? With omicron and beyond they have 0 public health impact to COVID spread and serve only as a failed method to coerce people into it.


It doesn’t matter anymore if vaccine passports are irrelevant, people are addicted to governments telling them what to do. Alberta and Sask Reddit subs exploded after announcement of restrictions being removed soon. You’ll never cure that level of stupidity.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PMedMoe said:


> The development of mRNA vaccines was a collaborative effort; Robert Malone contributed to their development, but he is not their inventor
> 
> The tangled history of mRNA vaccines
> 
> In-Depth: Did Robert Malone invent mRNA vaccines in San Diego?
> 
> False Claim: Dr. Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines.
> 
> I'm sure there's more out there along the same vein.


Thanks for that. Let's  just say he was close to and participated in the whole thing. I still believe that makes him more of an real expert on it than most of the talking head, tv people out there that claim to be experts.


----------



## winds_13

563 lawyers warn that COVID-19 mandates, protocols violate charter rights​
Bruce Wildsmith, who taught constitutional law for 25 years and has fought rights-based cases before the Supreme Court of Canada, warned that through the pandemic the provincial and federal governments have become increasingly cavalier in walking back the guarantees made to Canadians under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

“My humble opinion is that Justin Trudeau’s father, as the father of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, would be rolling over in his grave,” said Wildsmith.

....

“I’m not against vaccines, I’m not an anti-vaxxer,” said Wildsmith.

“What I’m concerned about is whether the restrictions being imposed are ‘demonstrably justified.' One of the tests of whether it’s a reasonable limit is whether the government has chosen the least intrusive measure available to them to accomplish the objective.”

Wildsmith doesn’t believe that they pass that legal test at this point in the pandemic.

Another 563 Canadian lawyers and legal scholars agree with him.










						563 lawyers warn that COVID-19 mandates, protocols violate charter rights | SaltWire
					

A growing chorus of lawyers, business people and private citizens are accusing both the federal and provincial governments of violating Canadians’ charter ...




					www.saltwire.com


----------



## FJAG

winds_13 said:


> Another 563 Canadian lawyers and legal scholars agree with him.


There are 130,000 lawyers in Canada - So - 0.43% of Canadian lawyers endorse this position.

Not really conclusive, is it?

🍻


----------



## SeaKingTacco

FJAG said:


> There are 130,000 lawyers in Canada - So - 0.43% of Canadian lawyers endorse this position.
> 
> Not really conclusive, is it?
> 
> 🍻


Well, to be fair each lawyer has at least a couple of opinions…


----------



## kev994

But Ontario’s top doctor is suggesting the vaccine passports need to be reassessed in light of the idea that they’re not reducing transmission of omicron. Story here


----------



## Fishbone Jones

winds_13 said:


> 563 lawyers warn that COVID-19 mandates, protocols violate charter rights​
> Bruce Wildsmith, who taught constitutional law for 25 years and has fought rights-based cases before the Supreme Court of Canada, warned that through the pandemic the provincial and federal governments have become increasingly cavalier in walking back the guarantees made to Canadians under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> “My humble opinion is that Justin Trudeau’s father, as the father of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, would be rolling over in his grave,” said Wildsmith.
> 
> ....
> 
> “I’m not against vaccines, I’m not an anti-vaxxer,” said Wildsmith.
> 
> “What I’m concerned about is whether the restrictions being imposed are ‘demonstrably justified.' One of the tests of whether it’s a reasonable limit is whether the government has chosen the least intrusive measure available to them to accomplish the objective.”
> 
> Wildsmith doesn’t believe that they pass that legal test at this point in the pandemic.
> 
> Another 563 Canadian lawyers and legal scholars agree with him.
> 
> 
> https://w



I don't think trudeau really cares. I think he'd like to see the entire Charter gone.

FJAG, is there someplace that lists all QCs by party affiliation or who appointed them?


----------



## FJAG

Fishbone Jones said:


> I don't think trudeau really cares. I think he'd like to see the entire Charter gone.
> 
> FJAG, is there someplace that lists all QCs by party affiliation or who appointed them?


There is a list for Manitoba - I'm not sure if its complete or not.

I'm on the list for 1997, which will let you calculate that I got mine from a PC Minister of Justice.



> Memorable Manitobans: Queen's Counsels / King's Counsels
> 
> 
> A list of lawyers appointed by the Manitoba provincial government as Queens Counsel or Kings Counsel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mhs.mb.ca



Other provinces might have a similar list.

🍻


----------



## Kat Stevens

FJAG said:


> There are 130,000 lawyers in Canada - So - 0.43% of Canadian lawyers endorse this position.
> 
> Not really conclusive, is it?
> 
> 🍻


A lower percentage than that of fatalities put the entire planet in lockdown, soooo....  I kid, I kid...


----------



## Blackadder1916

winds_13 said:


> 563 lawyers warn that COVID-19 mandates, protocols violate charter rights​





FJAG said:


> There are 130,000 lawyers in Canada - So - 0.43% of Canadian lawyers endorse this position.
> 
> Not really conclusive, is it?



But aren't these the only lawyers whose opinions matter?


----------



## MilEME09

Blackadder1916 said:


> But aren't these the only lawyers whose opinions matter?
> 
> View attachment 68521


They also haven't said much lately that I have seen


----------



## FJAG

MilEME09 said:


> They also haven't said much lately that I have seen


Has anyone asked them?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Neil Oliver cuts through the bullshit again


----------



## Halifax Tar

An independent thinking jock ... Arg tis hard tay believe


----------



## PMedMoe

Neil Oliver obtained an MA (Hons) in archaeology and then worked as a freelance archaeologist, before training as a journalist. He received honorary degrees from Abertay University in 2011 and the University of Glasgow in 2015.

Wow! He _must_ be an expert then!


----------



## QV

PMedMoe said:


> Neil Oliver obtained an MA (Hons) in archaeology and then worked as a freelance archaeologist, before training as a journalist. He received honorary degrees from Abertay University in 2011 and the University of Glasgow in 2015.
> 
> Wow! He _must_ be an expert then!


"You shall only listen to the state authorized opinions."


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:


> Neil Oliver obtained an MA (Hons) in archaeology and then worked as a freelance archaeologist, before training as a journalist. He received honorary degrees from Abertay University in 2011 and the University of Glasgow in 2015.
> 
> Wow! He _must_ be an expert then!



I bet you're fun at parties...


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:


> I bet you're fun at parties...


Damn right I am.  🍻


----------



## Brad Sallows

In view of the numbers of "experts" who have shat their credibility by playing politics, it doesn't matter anymore.  Except as a badge of honour to those who still like to outsource their thinking.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Yeah, he probably can't be considered a 'covid expert' because he doesn't work for Pfizer and he tells the truth.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Halifax Tar said:


> An independent thinking jock ... Arg tis hard tay believe understand without subtitles.



There, FTFY


----------



## PMedMoe

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yeah, he probably can't be considered a 'covid expert' because he doesn't work for Pfizer and he tells the truth says what he is paid to say.


FTFY.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> In view of the numbers of "experts" who have shat their credibility by playing politics, it doesn't matter anymore.  Except as a badge of honour to those who still like to outsource their thinking.



This is a good reminder about the numbers thing:


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:


> FTFY.


Do you have proof of this ?


----------



## QV

Halifax Tar said:


> Do you have proof of this ?


PMedMoe says those things as if they can't go the other way. 

What's more ironic is he probably has no evidence in what he presently asserts about Neil Oliver, but there are actual concluded court cases demonstrating big pharma has paid for certain outcomes in the past (in fact I believe Pfizer suffered the largest fine in history in one such case).


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:


> Do you have proof of this ?



He works for GB News.

Do you have proof that what he said is fact?


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:


> He works for GB News.
> 
> Do you have proof that what he said is fact?



So no.  He just doesn't meet your bias.  Ok fair enough.


----------



## PMedMoe

Halifax Tar said:


> So no.  He just doesn't meet your bias.  Ok fair enough.



So no. He meets your bias. Fair enough.


----------



## Halifax Tar

PMedMoe said:


> So no. He meets your bias. Fair enough.


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:


> He works for GB News.
> 
> Do you have proof that what he said is fact?


So conservative-leaning pundits can’t be correct?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Halifax Tar said:


> So no.  He just doesn't meet your bias.  Ok fair enough.



Nobody here, on Milnet, posts without bias. The only time anyone asks for a 'fact check', like this, is when they have a bone to pick with the other side and want to make life difficult for them. It's the Milnet hammer. So you end up with people putting up a spam indicator👹every time you post something and asking for proof, of an opinion piece, hoping for that golden gottcha moment. Put them on ignore and let them stew in their own juices. They seldom have much, topical, to say anyway.


----------



## PMedMoe

Weinie said:


> So conservative-leaning pundits can’t be correct?



Did I say that??


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Fishbone Jones said:


> Nobody here, on Milnet, posts without bias. The only time anyone asks for a 'fact check', like this, is when they have a bone to pick with the other side and want to make life difficult for them. It's the Milnet hammer. So you end up with people putting up a spam indicator👹every time you post something and asking for proof, of an opinion piece, hoping for that golden gottcha moment. Put them on ignore and let them stew in their own juices. They seldom have much, topical, to say anyway.


Opinions are like 'behinds' everyone has one 🤡


----------



## PMedMoe

"They seldom have much, topical, to say anyway."

Much like those who post incoherent rants.


----------



## PuckChaser

Or solely post fact checks.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Are we still talking about Covid 19 on this thread.?

Because we should be....


----------



## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Are we still talking about Covid 19 on this thread.?
> 
> Because we should be....


Yes so let’s talk about who made a shit Ton of $ during this pandemic. Wal Mart etc 

Then there are the excess who made Enough to fly into space…..


----------



## blacktriangle

OldSolduer said:


> Yes so let’s talk about who made a shit Ton of $ during this pandemic. Wal Mart etc


Something that should be discussed more. And the discussion shouldn't be limited to just private corporations and billionaires.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

A little light reading from the party news organization


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/doctors-pharmaceutical-funding-1.4164625


----------



## Halifax Tar

blacktriangle said:


> Something that should be discussed more. And the discussion shouldn't be limited to just private corporations and billionaires.



I have said as much before and stay in agreement with you.  Want to know why this continues, follow the money.  Always look to see who stands to profit.


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> Yes so let’s talk about who made a shit Ton of $ during this pandemic. Wal Mart etc
> 
> Then there are the excess who made Enough to fly into space…..


Amazon.  Peloton.  GoodFood.  Convoy Rebels.  Putin. Last week’s loto max winner.  Zoom.  Joe Rogan.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Fishbone Jones said:


> A little light reading from the party news organization
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/doctors-pharmaceutical-funding-1.4164625



Not as bad as what I hear happens in the US where Drs get kick backs for prescribing medications.  But troubling non the less.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> Amazon.  Peloton.  GoodFood.  Convoy Rebels.  Putin. Last week’s loto max winner.  Zoom.  Joe Rogan.











						How Much Money America’s Billionaires Have Made During The Covid-19 Pandemic
					

Surging markets have been especially good to the richest people in the country.




					www.forbes.com
				












						Meet The 40 New Billionaires Who Got Rich Fighting Covid-19
					

Some made their fortunes developing new vaccines and promising antibody treatments, while others sell much-needed diagnostic tests and personal protective equipment.




					www.forbes.com
				




I mean we can play partisan games and be obstreperous or we can have an honest review ...


----------



## blacktriangle

Remius said:


> Amazon.  Peloton.  GoodFood.  Convoy Rebels.  Putin. Last week’s loto max winner.  Zoom.  Joe Rogan.


Those elected & appointed, big pharma, big tech, public sector workers, transnational criminal organizations, foreign adversaries.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

And an article from the other end of the reporting spectrum. This one has a name attached. 










						Media didn’t disclose doctor’s $2M in Pfizer funding in coverage promoting child vaccination
					

Dr. Jim Kellner, a pediatrician and University of Calgary professor, has been cited as an authority in dozens of articles published by CTV News, CBC, Global News, the Toronto Star, and the Globe and Mail on vaccinating children and other pandemic related issues.




					tnc.news


----------



## OldSolduer

blacktriangle said:


> Something that should be discussed more. And the discussion shouldn't be limited to just private corporations and billionaires.


It is the raw greed exhibited by individuals that piss “the proletariat “ off. I have no issue with entrepreneurs making money but what some made is excessive. 

And there is little or no recourse - those corporations fund the politicians.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Halifax Tar said:


> Not as bad as what I hear happens in the US where Drs get kick backs for prescribing medications.  But troubling non the less.


I'll bet with some cursory searching, you could find lots of examples here in Canada.


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'll bet with some cursory searching, you could find lots of examples here in Canada.


I’m sure it would be worse if we moved to a private health care system.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> I’m sure it would be worse if we moved to a private health care system.



You're probably right.  Still, our HCS needs a make over and oodles more funding and people.  Simply reverting to the  pre-pandemic way of business is unacceptable in my eyes.


----------



## Remius

Halifax Tar said:


> How Much Money America’s Billionaires Have Made During The Covid-19 Pandemic
> 
> 
> Surging markets have been especially good to the richest people in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meet The 40 New Billionaires Who Got Rich Fighting Covid-19
> 
> 
> Some made their fortunes developing new vaccines and promising antibody treatments, while others sell much-needed diagnostic tests and personal protective equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean we can play partisan games and be obstreperous or we can have an honest review ...


Black triangle mentioned that we shouldn’t just limit the discussion to private corporations and billionaires.  So I threw out a whole bunch.

Realistically,  plenty of people line up to make money anytime a crisis, emergency or event happens.  Be it pandemics, earthquakes, war or whatever.

I find the irony of people largely opposed to government oversight on anything or decry socialism somehow want the government to rein in free enterprise, free markets and capitalism.  

And despite what some may think.  Anti vax, anti government anti science groups have raised a lot of money using disinformation campaigns.


----------



## Remius

Halifax Tar said:


> You're probably right.  Still, our HCS needs a make over and oodles more funding and people.  Simply reverting to the  pre-pandemic way of business is unacceptable in my eyes.


Totally agree with you on that point.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Remius said:


> Black triangle mentioned that we shouldn’t just limit the discussion to private corporations and billionaires.  So I threw out a whole bunch.
> 
> Realistically,  plenty of people line up to make money anytime a crisis, emergency or event happens.  Be it pandemics, earthquakes, war or whatever.
> 
> I find the irony of people largely opposed to government oversight on anything or decry socialism somehow want the government to rein in free enterprise, free markets and capitalism.
> 
> And despite what some may think.  Anti vax, anti government anti science groups have raised a lot of money using disinformation campaigns.



Why do we have to go to extremes like socialism in our discussions ?  How about we just up the tax on the rich ?  Stop giving tax free anything's to big business... We don't have to revert to socialism to ensure everyone pays their share.

I think the profit Rumble and Joe Rogan made probably pales in comparison to Amazon and Pfizer just to name a few.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

I mean we shouldn't really blame the billionaires, they are just the best entrepreneurs out there 😁


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> I’m sure it would be worse if we moved to a private health care system.


I have no idea. It's not what we were talking about so I haven't looked at that tangent. Perhaps you could do some research and present it to start the discussion?


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> I have no idea. It's not what we were talking about so I haven't looked at that tangent.


We’re we not talking about doctors getting kickbacks?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The entire self-help industry basically thrives off the same crap.  

Oh?  You're feeling sad and depressed?  Pay me a $100.00 to sit with you for an hour and I'll unlock your potential 🤔

What a pile of


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> We’re we not talking about doctors getting kickbacks?


Yes we are. However, we're talking realities. Known cases. You want to talk about hypotheticals.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The entire self-help industry basically thrives off the same crap.
> 
> Oh?  You're feeling sad and depressed?  Pay me a $100.00 to sit with you for an hour and I'll unlock your potential 🤔
> 
> What a pile of



Exercise always helps me.  Feeling shitty ?  I go do a 15K ruck...


----------



## Remius

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do we have to go to extremes like socialism in our discussions ?  How about we just up the tax on the rich ?  Stop giving tax free anything's to big business... We don't have to revert to socialism to ensure everyone pays their share.
> 
> I think the profit Rumble and Joe Rogan made probably pales in comparison to Amazon and Pfizer just to name a few.


It isn’t an extreme.  Social programs and big government are always likened to socialism in most arguments against that sort of thing.   And I wasn’t arguing in favour of socialism one way or another.  Just the disconnect that some have about decrying free market activities but condemning exactly what you propose . 

Taxing the rich and taxing corporations.  Not opposed and I agree.  I’m not sure most conservatives do though.  In fact they (the Royal they) actively campaign against that sort of thing.


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> Exercise always helps me.  Feeling shitty ?  I go do a 15K ruck...


I’ll run beside you if you give me $100. 😆


----------



## Remius

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yes we are. However, we're talking realities. Known cases. You want to talk about hypotheticals.


Ah i see, except you brought up hypotheticals yourself.  Should we only talk about what you want to talk about?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Good2Golf said:


> I’ll run beside you if you give me $100. 😆



Deal!  But no talking that's my time to be alone in my head hahaha


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Halifax Tar said:


> Deal!  But no talking that's my time to be alone in my head hahaha


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean we shouldn't really blame the billionaires, they are just the best entrepreneurs out there 😁


That is an absolute truth. What was unfair about their windfalls is our own governments, those that were elected to take care of us, closed up the little guys stores and picked the big box owners to fill that gap. There was no reason why small shops could not remain open and have people sanitize and wear a mask, because to stay in business, that's all Walmart, Cambodian Tire, Home Depot, et al had to do. Sanitize and enforce a mask policy.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Halifax Tar said:


> Deal!  But no talking that's my time to be alone in my head hahaha


If you're talking, you aren't running hard enough.

Peleton is currently involved with a number of different lawsuits. Some made by them and some demanded of them. They are going to be spending a shitload of money out of pocket.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Fishbone Jones said:


> That is an absolute truth. What was unfair about their windfalls is our own governments, those that were elected to take care of us, closed up the little guys stores and picked the big box owners to fill that gap. There was no reason why small shops could not remain open and have people sanitize and wear a mask, because to stay in business, that's all Walmart, Cambodian Tire, Home Depot, et al had to do. Sanitize and enforce a mask policy.


You got no argument from me there.  I also admit to having no other information other than what I read about places like Ontario.

I know a few of my spouse's friends who own restaurants and other small businesses went through a tremendously rough time for awhile as their businesses were forced to shutter and they were out of work.

These are those second order effects that others dismiss because it doesn't affect them.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

And I know one pub owner who said he never made so much money while the fed's were covering 75% of his biggest cost, wages......


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And I know one pub owner who said he never made so much money while the fed's were covering 75% of his biggest cost, wages......


Yep if you could milk CEWS, you were raking in a fortune.  CEWS doesn't help the workers though or if you're the only employee with your spouse 😉


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


>



I do enjoy and edible or two dans la marcher hahaha


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Halifax Tar said:


> I do enjoy and edible or two dans la marcher hahaha


Essential Oils are part of a well balanced diet 🤣


----------



## Weinie

PMedMoe said:


> Did I say that??


You implied that because he works for GB News, that somehow this lessens his veracity or ability to contribute to the debate. So, no, not in so many words.


----------



## QV

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do we have to go to extremes like socialism in our discussions ?  How about we just up the tax on the rich ?  Stop giving tax free anything's to big business... We don't have to revert to socialism to ensure everyone pays their share.
> 
> I think the profit Rumble and Joe Rogan made probably pales in comparison to Amazon and Pfizer just to name a few.


The inability for some to differentiate how those entities earn their money is amusing. Disingenuous, expert level.


----------



## QV

Halifax Tar said:


> Exercise always helps me.  Feeling shitty ?  I go do a 15K ruck...


Nothing like a little reminder what "shitty" actually feels like.


----------



## Halifax Tar

QV said:


> Nothing like a little reminder what "shitty" actually feels like.



I know it's weird but ruck marching is a very zen for me lol


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And I know one pub owner who said he never made so much money while the fed's taxpayers were covering 75% of his biggest cost, wages......


FTFY. 
You can tell him 'You're welcome', from us. The one's truly on the hook for this.


----------



## Remius

Halifax Tar said:


> I know it's weird but ruck marching is a very zen for me lol


Last year I was doing 5k a day weighted marching.  I actually know what you mean. Lol.  Need to get back to it…


----------



## Brad Sallows

Corrupt practices (eg. kickbacks, collusion in pricing) are always wrong.  Profit-seeking responses to crisis demands are not wrong - that's how resources get redistributed from places they are not needed as much, to places where they are needed more.



> taxing corporations



At the federal level (assuming pretty much all the services corporations consume are provided and paid for - taxed for - locally), what's the point of that?  Profits that flow to employees are taxed as income.  Profits that flow to shareholders are taxed (a bit differently) as income.  Profits that provide room to decrease prices effectively flow to customers.  Profits reinvested in the business effectively become a cost.

Corporations are an enormous "social good" (employment, specialization, complex enterprises).  To the extent that corporate taxes act as a drag on corporations, that's bad policy.



> I’m sure it would be worse if we moved to a private health care system.



If we moved to a private health care system, people would be spending more of their own money on themselves.  How you'd get from the greatest downward pressure on prices to some sort of space for corrupt price-inflating practices is a mystery.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:


> Ah i see, except you brought up hypotheticals yourself.  Should we only talk about what you want to talk about?


You can talk about whatever you wish. Play your games with someone else.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Whack a mole continues....


Where will the next coronavirus variant of concern come from?​A handful of African countries are its most likely source​

SINCE SARS-COV-2, the virus that causes covid-19, was first sequenced in early 2020, five “variants of concern” have been identified by the World Health Organisation. The latest, Omicron, was spotted in November and is now dominant in several countries including America, Britain and South Africa. It is set to overtake Delta as the globally dominant variant in the coming weeks or months. Omicron can evade vaccine-induced immunity and it spreads more rapidly than Delta. A sub-variant of it, BA.2, appears to be even more transmissible. These strains are unlikely to be the last. It is impossible to be sure how the virus will evolve, but researchers at Airfinity, a life-sciences data firm, have tried to map where the next variant of concern is most likely to emerge.

Mutation is a random process, which is why successful new variants are more likely to come from places where lots of mutation is occurring. Airfinity’s hypothesis is that this will occur where few people have had the jab and where many suffer from weakened immune systems. Immunocompromised people tend to harbour the virus for longer because their bodies struggle to fight it off, giving more time for successful mutations to accumulate. They are also less likely to produce antibodies after being vaccinated, meaning they have less protection against reinfection.

Airfinity’s researchers concluded that Burundi, Tanzania, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Yemen and Nigeria are most at risk of producing a new variant. By January 29th, less than 6% of people living in the four African countries had been fully vaccinated against coronavirus. In Burundi, the country the researchers found to be by far the most at risk, that figure was just 0.05%. Yemen, which has been gripped by civil war since 2014, had fully vaccinated only 1.1% by January 31st. Distribution remains difficult in poor countries: many lack the necessary infrastructure, including reliable electricity, to store vaccines at very low temperatures. Vaccine hesitancy is a problem, too. The researchers also took into account the prevalence of four common conditions that can weaken the immune system: HIV, cancer, chronic kidney disease and a recent organ transplant. In the five high-risk countries HIV was the most significant condition contributing to risk, with higher rates in the four African countries. In Tanzania almost 5% of people aged 15-49 have the virus.

Airfinity’s analysis has limitations. It does not take into account the differing protection offered by various covid vaccines, natural immunity, the impact of population density on transmission or covid treatment options for immunocompromised people. Estimating the number of immunocompromised people is itself hard: the model the data was based on includes only a few conditions. Others, like severe type-1 diabetes or rheumatoid arthritis, were absent. Nor is everyone with such conditions immunocompromised. But the study still offers insight into where to look for future variants—and where to focus efforts on increasing the supply and take-up of vaccines. 










						Where will the next coronavirus variant of concern come from?
					

A handful of African countries are its most likely source




					www.economist.com


----------



## mariomike

36 NYPD members fired today over the municipal vaccination mandate.

NYPD has 35,030 sworn officers, and 15,645 civilian employees.









						N.Y.C. fires 1,430 workers, less than 1 percent of city employees, over a vaccine mandate.
					

The figure is likely the largest mass termination of U.S. municipal employees in response to a Covid vaccine mandate.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Messerschmitt

Meanwhile the mandates do fuck all to prevent spread, which was the whole point of the mandates to start with.

Clown world.

Can't wait for someone to come in and say "bUt vAcCiNeS wErE nEvEr mEaNt tO pReVenT tRaNsMiSsIoN". They absolutely were and it was the whole matra from beginning until late summer/early fall of 2021. "Reach herd immunity! Only way to return to normal!".


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Feel better now??


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Interesting case


----------



## McG

Messerschmitt said:


> Meanwhile the mandates do fuck all to prevent spread, which was the whole point of the mandates to start with.


Actually, the science says vaccination  does reduce transmission. Maybe the impact is less than we would like, but “do fuck all” is false and a lie.








						What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission?
					

Vaccines that work against SARS-CoV-2 have helped change the course of the pandemic by reducing illness and hospital admissions. But Chris Stokel-Walker asks what we know about their impact on preventing transmission.  The range of vaccines developed in record time by pharmaceutical companies...




					www.bmj.com


----------



## mariomike

Messerschmitt said:


> Meanwhile the mandates do fuck all to prevent spread, which was the whole point of the mandates to start with.



Some municipalities are keeping the mandate.

2 Mar., 2022









						Toronto among Ontario municipalities keeping mandatory vaccine policies for employees
					

The province's vaccine certificate system covering restaurants,  gyms, cinemas, and event spaces ended Tuesday




					torontosun.com
				






> In Toronto, the city said that despite the other public health measures lifting, its policy that employees need to be vaccinated isn’t being removed.
> “Ensuring all employees, as well as new hires, are vaccinated is an important component of what the city is doing to help protect the health and safety of all employees and the communities they work with,” the city said in a statement.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

McG said:


> Actually, the science says vaccination  does reduce transmission. Maybe the impact is less than we would like, but “do fuck all” is false and a lie.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission?
> 
> 
> Vaccines that work against SARS-CoV-2 have helped change the course of the pandemic by reducing illness and hospital admissions. But Chris Stokel-Walker asks what we know about their impact on preventing transmission.  The range of vaccines developed in record time by pharmaceutical companies...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bmj.com


And for every article you cite saying they work, one can be found that says they don't. And no need to talk about science. Covid killed science. 'The science is settled' has become a more sarcastic phrase than a factual one. It's become a useless statement.


----------



## McG

When vaccinated and unvaccinated populations mix, risk to the vaccinated originates disproportionately from the unvaccinated. Study:









						Impact of Population Mixing Between a Vaccinated Majority and Unvaccinated Minority on Disease Dynamics: Implications for SARS-CoV-2
					

Background The speed of vaccine development has been a singular achievement during the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, though uptake has not been universal. Vaccine opponents often frame their opposition in terms of the rights of the unvaccinated. Our objective was to explore the impact of mixing of...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## PuckChaser

> This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should _not_ be used to guide clinical practice.


Confirmation bias at its best.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Is covid still a thing? I thought Russia cured it by invading Ukraine?


----------



## OceanBonfire

> At the start of the pandemic when scientists were less clear on how the virus was transmitted, surfaces were a huge source of worry, with people scrambling to buy wipes to disinfect anything and everything that entered their home.
> 
> Numerous studies even found that the virus could remain active on surfaces for hours after an infected person first coughed or sneezed on the surface, fuelling these fears.
> 
> It’s now understood that the virus is transmitted almost entirely through tiny airborne particles as well as through larger droplets expelled when sneezing or coughing.
> 
> But why is it that surface transmission predictions didn’t come true if the virus truly is able to linger on surfaces?
> 
> Surface transmission was already less likely due to the sequence of events that has to take place in order for it to work: an infected person has to deposit virus particles on a surface which is then touched by another person, who then has to bring their hand to their mouth, nose or eyes in order for the virus to get into their body.
> 
> But apart from that, researchers noticed that one of the limitations of the majority of laboratory studies measuring the lifespan of COVID-19 virus particles on surfaces is that lab studies usually used synthetic buffers or growth mediums to deposit the virus on the surfaces.
> 
> In real life, SARS-CoV-2 is coated in mucus when it leaves an infected person’s body through a sneeze or a cough.
> 
> In order for virus particles expelled from the body in a sneeze or cough to infect another person, they have to penetrate the mucus layer around them so they can replicate and bind to human cells.
> 
> Researchers sought to investigate the properties of mucus to see if it could partially explain the unlikeliness of surface transmission.
> 
> ...
> 
> Researchers acknowledged that more research needs to be done on this topic to truly understand how much mucus plays into infection pathways.











						Why aren't there more COVID-19 surface transmissions? The answer is mucus, study suggests
					

Even though COVID-19 can survive on surfaces, a new study suggests the reason widespread cases connected to surface transmission haven’t materialized might be due to one unexpected barrier: mucus.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## McG

PuckChaser said:


> Confirmation bias at its best.


?
The article is prepublished. If you dismiss it because you don’t like the conclusion and it has a prepublication disclaimer, then that’s more cherry-picking than confirmation bias. If you take the time to read, then you can assess/critique the metrics and analysis directly.


----------



## PuckChaser

McG said:


> ?
> The article is prepublished. If you dismiss it because you don’t like the conclusion and it has a pre published disclaimer, then that’s more cherry-picking than confirmation bias. If you take the time to read, then you can assess/critique the metrics and analysis directly.


Oh I'm sorry. I forgot the only prepublished and non peer reviewed studies allowed around here were ones that supported masking forever and vaccine passports.


----------



## McG

Do you have a legitimate critique of the study or are you just going to do snide sarcasm & ad hominem now?


----------



## QV

Oh.... so... no big deal?






						FUREY: Ontario reveals deaths caused by COVID much lower than previously reported
					

Ontario says the number of deaths caused by COVID-19 is much lower than the story the previous statistics told.




					torontosun.com
				




But this has been going on since 2020. Here is an older article. What a bloody farce.









						Ontario death count includes people who didn't die of COVID-19, but exactly how many is unknown
					

The daily pandemic death counts in Ontario include people who have tested positive for COVID-19 but have not necessarily died from the virus.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

QV said:


> Oh.... so... no big deal?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FUREY: Ontario reveals deaths caused by COVID much lower than previously reported
> 
> 
> Ontario says the number of deaths caused by COVID-19 is much lower than the story the previous statistics told.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But this has been going on since 2020. Here is an older article. What a bloody farce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario death count includes people who didn't die of COVID-19, but exactly how many is unknown
> 
> 
> The daily pandemic death counts in Ontario include people who have tested positive for COVID-19 but have not necessarily died from the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


It was the same for every province. The feds pushed down the testing and reporting criteria to be followed. This should really come as no surprise to anyone, except maybe those who have denied it. The rest of us have known since this started that the stats were overblown garbage. They were designed to instill fear and uncertainty while providing financial incentives to hospitals and the like to ensure their co-operation in keeping the counts high. Just my opinion.


----------



## dapaterson

Best take on removing mask mandates.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502338599106355201


----------



## Messerschmitt

Fishbone Jones said:


> It was the same for every province. The feds pushed down the testing and reporting criteria to be followed. This should really come as no surprise to anyone, except maybe those who have denied it. The rest of us have known since this started that the stats were overblown garbage. They were designed to instill fear and uncertainty while providing financial incentives to hospitals and the like to ensure their co-operation in keeping the counts high. Just my opinion.


This happened in many many countries. The fear porn was real. We'll see how it will be in the fall and if the war will be done by then so that everyone will be glued back to the tv screens and fear for their lives.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> ICMR Includes Ivermectin for COVID-19 Indication in National List of Essential Medicines
> 
> 
> The Indian government recently slashed the price of 39 important drugs covering a range of therapeutic drugs from cancer to COVID-19 as part of the revised Indian National List of Essential Medicines (NLEM). TrialSite reports among the commonly used drugs prominently on the list are ivermectin...
> 
> 
> 
> trialsitenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indian Council of Medical Research and the Indian government include ivermectin for treatment of COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zerohedge
> 
> 
> ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zerohedge.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rolling Stones ivermectin hit piece debunked by the hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan says he tested positive for COVID-19, took unproven ivermectin
> 
> 
> Public health agencies don't recommend the drug for treating COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnet.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe Rogan, unvaccinated, contracted COVID-19. Took therapeutics including ivermectin and fully recovered in 3 days.











						Ivermectin Doesn’t Cut Covid Hospitalization Risk, Study Shows - BNN Bloomberg
					

A large study on the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, which has gained popularity as an alternative therapy for Covid-19, found that the medicine didn’t help keep patients out of the hospital.




					www.bnnbloomberg.ca
				






> A large study on the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, which has gained popularity as an alternative therapy for Covid-19, found that the medicine didn’t help keep patients out of the hospital.
> 
> Scientists in Brazil who followed more than 1,300 patients assigned to take either the drug or a placebo for three days also found that ivermectin treatment didn’t help with a number of other health measures such as viral clearance after a week, speed of recovery or risk of death. The study results were published in the New England Journal of Medicine.
> 
> The study, thanks to its breadth and detail, should help settle the debate on ivermectin’s role as a Covid treatment. The drug gained traction early in the pandemic, when doctors were looking to repurpose older medicines to help save patients. Smaller trials offered conflicting results. Even after the World Health Organization said last year there was only very low certainty evidence that ivermectin worked for Covid and advised against its use, some doctors continued prescribing the drug.



It did win a nobel prize though.


----------



## winds_13

McG said:


> Do you have a legitimate critique of the study or are you just going to do snide sarcasm & ad hominem now?


I do. This study uses mathematical models based off of outdated levels of expected vaccine effectiveness (ex. 80% effective against Delta infection), including hypothetical levels of protection against Omicron (the study is dated 14 Dec 2021). It even states that it does not account for real-world factors. It offers no real world evidence of its claims, despite there being enormous amounts of data collection across regions with varying levels of vaccination and differing public health restrictions from which we can compare.

The data that we have on actual case rates have showed a near nonexistent level of protection against Omicron amongst those with only two vaccine doses (formerly referred to as "fully vaccinated"), and a relatively low effectiveness against infection for those with 3 doses. It also seems at this point that vaccine effectiveness from infection itself is less a result of the number of vaccines than it is a factor of how long it has been since one's last vaccine dose. The Ontario government's reporting of known case rates amongst vaccinated, partially vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals displayed the highest incidence rate amongst "fully vaccinated" individuals throughout most of the last 4 months (it dipped a bit in January but then went bacm up). Lowest case rates, by far, were among the "partially vaccinated", assumedly most in this group were less than a month from their last shot. Unfortunately the Ontario government website stopped displaying case rates by vaccine status a few weeks ago (replacing the graph with "deaths by vaccine status"), so it is now more difficult to know what the current situation is.

I am for vaccination but it seems clear that the vaccines are no longer considered to provide a high degree of protection from infection and spread. This point has been emphasized by public health officials. Yes, vaccines have proven effective at reducing the level of hospitalization and death amongst at risk populations, but that is not the justification being used for polices such as workplace mandates, travel restrictions, and vaccine passports.

There are risks to vaccination that change depending on individual factors. This is why some countries, such as Sweden, have decided against recommending vaccinating children... they determined that the risks outweighed the benefits. Similarly, Greece's mandatory vaccination policy only affected those over 60 years old. In contrast, workplace mandates generally affect those under 60.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> workplace mandates,
Click to expand...


 Fair? Not fair? Who knows? I didn't go to medical or law school. It is what it is.

Mandates are enforced where I used to work.

YMMV depending on employer.









						Howard Levitt: Yes, employers can still impose vaccine restrictions after provincial mandates have lifted
					

Government requirements have little impact on whether the employer can argue it has good business reasons for enacting a compulsory vaccination policy




					financialpost.com


----------



## Navy_Pete

Even with reduced effectiveness at preventing transmission, the vaccines are still massively successful at reducing severity, which keeps hospitalization and deaths low.

'They aren't 100% effective so we shouldn't use them' is just breathtakingly ignorant. No need to go back to the dark ages and die of dysentery.

Personnally, I'm quite happy to have let my immune system go a few sparring rounds with a vaccine so I don't get my head knocked off by the real thing, but in COVID specifically that was really the point where I finally started to recover from long COVID after catching it in an early wave.

The same scientists that developed the vaccine didn't just down tools; I'm sure they are working on updating it for new variations. Viruses are living, changing organisms so there is no 100% effective, permanent silver bullet.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Tested positive twice yesterday... I am completely a-symptomatic ... Feel great... If this is sick, I will take it. 

This is our families first exposure.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Halifax Tar said:


> Tested positive twice yesterday... I am completely a-symptomatic ... Feel great... If this is sick, I will take it.
> 
> This is our families first exposure.


Our whole family got it, starting by our middle child.  Pretty severe fever (40+) for the middle and youngest child (that was worrisome). Almost nothing for the oldest but some lingering shortness of breath when playing sports that manifested after isolation was done.  I had moderate flu symptoms and was out for two days.  I am back to pre-COVID cardio workouts.  My wife also had moderate flu symptoms but she has a lingering cough and some shortness of breath.  It honestly wasn’t a fun three weeks.


----------



## Halifax Tar

SupersonicMax said:


> Our whole family got it, starting by our middle child.  Pretty severe fever (40+) for the middle and youngest child (that was worrisome). Almost nothing for the oldest but some lingering shortness of breath when playing sports that manifested after isolation was done.  I had moderate flu symptoms and was out for two days.  I am back to pre-COVID cardio workouts.  My wife also had moderate flu symptoms but she has a lingering cough and some shortness of breath.  It honestly wasn’t a fun three weeks.



My wife is a bit stuffy, same as our daughter.  But thats it.  Personally I feel great.  

Glad you guys are ok.


----------



## OldSolduer

Messerschmitt said:


> This happened in many many countries. The fear porn was real. We'll see how it will be in the fall and if the war will be done by then so that everyone will be glued back to the tv screens and fear for their lives.


There was a BBC clip with that typical Brit smarmy reporter showing a gymnasium full of caskets and saying something to the effect that the coffins would be full by the end of the week. 

It was way over the top and I realized it but apparently the media thought it was cool to report. Nothing like making people fearful.


----------



## McG

winds_13 said:


> This study uses mathematical models based off of outdated levels of expected vaccine effectiveness (ex. 80% effective against Delta infection), including hypothetical levels of protection against Omicron (the study is dated 14 Dec 2021).


The study did look at 40% and 60% vaccine effectiveness as well.  It notes that identified trends still exists that unvaccinated increase the risk to vaccinated but that the degree is  "attenuated as vaccines become less effective."  As you lay out, people don't exist in a binary state of vaccinated or unvaccinated.  It would be interesting to see another take on this model that mixed more than just two groups with differing levels of protection (representing unvaxed, fully vaxed, and fully vaxed with recent booster).


----------



## Kilted

When in Uniform in public, while outdoors, are masks still required?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Elon Musk asks all Tesla employees to come back to the office or quit
					

The enigmatic CEO told employees that they must clock in at least 40 hours a week in the office of be terminated




					electrek.co
				




Elon says bye bye to remote work at Tesla 😎


----------



## OldSolduer

_Monkeypox has entered the chat:_

I found it rather amusing that there were two - yes two - cases of monkeypox reported in Toronto the other day.

You know some days I want to contact the powers that be and tell them to eff off and let us get on with life. Oh and one case in Alberta.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

OldSolduer said:


> _Monkeypox has entered the chat:_
> 
> I found it rather amusing that there were two - yes two - cases of monkeypox reported in Toronto the other day.
> 
> You know some days I want to contact the powers that be and tell them to eff off and let us get on with life. Oh and one case in Alberta.


OMG, two infections!  There are more herpes infections on a Friday evening at the Sticky Wicket in Victoria BC 😆


----------



## Spencer100

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Elon Musk asks all Tesla employees to come back to the office or quit
> 
> 
> The enigmatic CEO told employees that they must clock in at least 40 hours a week in the office of be terminated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> electrek.co
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Elon says bye bye to remote work at Tesla 😎


But as people are focused on that part its just one small part of the twitters he has sent.  The no work from home for him is just a way to trim the sails. He also said the next day storms are brewing in the economy and 10 percent workforce reduction is on the way. Having the work home people leave on their own is a smart way to get the 10 percent reduction.  And also in a manufacturing operation your line employees can't work from home. And  what does it say to the line worker, your boss can work from home but you can't. Terrible leadership optics.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Spencer100 said:


> But as people are focused on that part its just one small part of the twitters he has sent.  The no work from home for him is just a way to trim the sails. He also said the next day storms are brewing in the economy and 10 percent workforce reduction is on the way. Having the work home people leave on their own is a smart way to get the 10 percent reduction.  And also in a manufacturing operation your line employees can't work from home. And  what does it say to the line worker, your boss can work from home but you can't. Terrible leadership optics.


Yep, Elon knows the way.  I agree with him btw.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> OMG, two infections!  There are more herpes infections on a Friday evening at the Sticky Wicket in Victoria BC 😆



I guess you could times that by five in Big Bad John's then


----------



## daftandbarmy

Better get that resume tuned up...

A wave of layoffs is sweeping the US. Here are firms that have announced cuts so far, from Carvana to Netflix.​
In the first few months of 2022, a wave of layoffs swept across American business.
The cuts stem from slower business growth, paired with rising labor costs.
The layoffs cut across industries, from mortgage lending to digital-payment processing.









						Goldman Sachs plans to cut thousands of workers. Here are the other major US companies that have made cuts in 2022, from Amazon to Twitter.
					

Goldman Sachs has become the latest major company with plans to slash its headcount as business growth slows and costs increase.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Better get that resume tuned up...
> 
> A wave of layoffs is sweeping the US. Here are firms that have announced cuts so far, from Carvana to Netflix.​
> In the first few months of 2022, a wave of layoffs swept across American business.
> The cuts stem from slower business growth, paired with rising labor costs.
> The layoffs cut across industries, from mortgage lending to digital-payment processing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goldman Sachs plans to cut thousands of workers. Here are the other major US companies that have made cuts in 2022, from Amazon to Twitter.
> 
> 
> Goldman Sachs has become the latest major company with plans to slash its headcount as business growth slows and costs increase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


A lot of Tech and a lot Service Industries.  I always thought work from home would lead to job losses.  If you can be outsourced, that means your job can be outsourced 😁

Plus companies have probably started amassing pretty good analytics now on remote vs office outputs.


----------



## Good2Golf

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omicron-resurgence-booster-dose-1.6507089
		




> Government data suggests the first two shots offer little protection against an Omicron infection — "*There's almost no protection,*" Tam said earlier this month — and data from other countries similarly suggest the primary series offers negligible levels of protection against transmission.




I must have not been paying attention a year and a half ago when Dr. Tam first said “there’s almost no protection”….oh wait, she didn’t.

And Health Minister Duclos says:


> Duclos said every Canadian adult should have had at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine in the last nine months. Canadians who got a shot last summer are no longer "up to date," he said, and they need to roll up their sleeves now for a booster.
> 
> To that end, Duclos said *Canada will no longer call people who've had two doses "fully vaccinated." *But he didn't say if the government's vaccine mandates will be adjusted to dictate people have three doses of a COVID-19 vaccine.



And people wonder why there is eroding trust in our Government??


----------



## dapaterson

Until you have a large population with two shots, determining that a rapidly mutating virus may not be adequately prevented by only two shots is not surprising.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

That came 24 hrs after he dropped the mandates at airports. No stops, if fully vaccinated. OBTW, fully vaxxed is now three shots.

I had the original first two shots, hardly ever wore a mask, didn't social distance among friends and never caught covid. With all the side effects rearing their heads, I highly doubt I'll take any more. I no longer pay attention what trudeau and his minions order us to do. While he may have won the vote. He wasn't given a mandate, by Canadians, to destroy our country or ignore our wishes. I can ignore him just as easy as he ignores us.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Good2Golf said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/omicron-resurgence-booster-dose-1.6507089
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I must have not been paying attention *a year and a half ago* when Dr. Tam first said “there’s almost no protection”….oh wait, she didn’t.
> 
> And Health Minister Duclos says:
> 
> 
> And people wonder why there is eroding trust in our Government??



I'll agree that Dr Tam does lack the ability of precognition; she probably missed that class during med school and residency, shame on her.  And shame on Covid for evolving into different variants including "Omicron" and its now emerging sub-variants that challenge previous vaccine regimes.  If only she had known in December 2020 or January 2021 (_a year and a half ago depending on how loose one interprets it_) that "Omicron" would be first reported on 24 November 2021, she could have made the prediction that booster shots of vaccines (_that had, in most cases, only received emergency use authorization in Dec 2020_) would be necessary.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The NDP are nothing if not predictable, and are experts at taking advantage of a gigantic crisis to build their base. I assume that similar trends might be seen nationally.

But the time to pay the Piper is coming 

Tracking B.C.’s industry employment dynamics through the pandemic – and the public sector’s oversize role in job creation​
With the provincial unemployment rate hovering near record lows and the total number of people employed in the province up nearly 100,000 since the start of the pandemic, in aggregate the labour market has mostly recovered.

But three of every four new jobs created in the province since the start of the pandemic have been in the public sector.

As the final figure below shows, private sector employment (consisting of paid employees plus those who are self-employed) is well below its pre-pandemic growth trend.

For a more complete and durable economic recovery, job creation in the private sector will need to accelerate. Relying on the public sector to drive and sustain employment growth is not a viable long-term strategy for the province.









						Tracking B.C.’s industry employment dynamics through the pandemic –…
					

BCBC analysis highlights the disproportionate role of the public sector in overall job creation in B.C. over the past 27 months. @BizCouncilBC




					bcbc.com


----------



## Retired AF Guy

If Canada's air travel industry wasn't already in enough trouble, this news is sure not going to make it any better.



> *Mandatory random COVID-19 testing for fully vaccinated air travellers resuming next week*
> 
> Darren Major · CBC News · Posted: Jul 14, 2022 9:17 AM ET | Last Updated: 2 hours ago​
> The federal government has announced that it will be resuming mandatory random COVID-19 testing for international travellers arriving at four major airports next week.
> 
> Ottawa had initially suspended random testing for fully vaccinated travellers last month after airport authorities urged the government to drop the program, saying it was causing long delays at airports, although testing remained in place for those not considered fully vaccinated.
> 
> But fully vaccinated travellers will once again be subject to mandatory testing, although the government is moving the testing out of airports to nearby off-site locations, such as pharmacies. Travellers can also book a virtual self-swab appointment.
> 
> Fully vaccinated travellers arriving in Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal could be subject to random testing starting Tuesday
> 
> To qualify as a fully vaccinated traveller, a person must have received two doses of a recognized vaccine (like Pfizer, Moderna or Astra-Zeneca) or one shot of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
> Detecting new strains​The government maintains that random testing for air travellers is necessary to help detect new COVID-19 variants.
> "As demand for travel increases across the world, today's announcement marks an important step in our progress to streamline testing processes outside our airports while preventing the further spread of COVID-19," Transport Minister Omar Alghabra said in a press release.
> 
> Those selected for random testing must complete the test within one day of their arrival, the government says.
> A spokesperson for Greater Toronto Airport Authority (GTAA), the organization that runs Toronto's Pearson International Airport, said they were "pleased" that testing was moving offsite.
> 
> The GTAA had been one of the most vocal critics of the government prior to the suspension of random testing. The spokesperson said stopping testing at the airport has reduced delays. "The temporary pause in mandatory random testing at airports was helpful as it resulted in a smoother experience for arriving passengers," the spokesperson said in a statement.



 Link


----------



## Brad Sallows

I've heard that what they're really doing is using the pretext of random testing to secretly and non-randomly microscopically tag people so their movements can be tracked.


----------



## PMedMoe

Brad Sallows said:


> I've heard that what they're really doing is using the pretext of random testing to secretly and non-randomly microscopically tag people so their movements can be tracked.



Didn't they already do that with the vaccine?? 🤣🙄


----------



## Weinie

Brad Sallows said:


> I've heard that what they're really doing is using the pretext of random testing to secretly and non-randomly microscopically tag people so their movements can be tracked.


Nice lunch you prepared, Brad.


----------



## dapaterson

People fearful of the government being able to track them and posting about it on social media via their cellphone are my favourites.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

“People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both”

― Benjamin Franklin


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> “People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both”
> 
> ― Benjamin Franklin




Nobody puts baby in a co...huh??

Oh sorry, thought this was the pull a random quote thread.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nobody puts baby in a co...huh??
> 
> Oh sorry, thought this was the pull a random quote thread.


Yup, real funny guy Bruce. Just fucking hilarious. If it doesn't fit your wheelhouse, the other guy becomes your foil.


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:


> People fearful of the government being able to track them and posting about it on social media via their cellphone are my favourites.



Most of them are probably beneath the effort but...


Canada’s national police force admits use of spyware to hack phones​
The RCMP says it needs to use malware because encryption has made surveillance “exponentially more difficult.”
OTTAWA, Ont. — In a “remarkable” disclosure, Canada’s national police force has described for the first time how it uses spyware to infiltrate mobile devices and collect data, including by remotely turning on the camera and microphone of a suspect’s phone or laptop.


----------



## McG




----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yup, real funny guy Bruce. Just fucking hilarious. If it doesn't fit your wheelhouse, the other guy becomes your foil.


Actually, even if it fits in my wheelhouse the other guy becomes my foil.

We are living in the most prosperous, safest, time in human history here in Canada.......I won't apologize even a little for believing that we have it so good  and yet there are those who believe we've never had it so friggin' bad. 

Left, right, whomever
Oppression Obsession


----------



## brihard

Jarnhamar said:


> Most of them are probably beneath the effort but...
> 
> 
> Canada’s national police force admits use of spyware to hack phones​
> The RCMP says it needs to use malware because encryption has made surveillance “exponentially more difficult.”
> OTTAWA, Ont. — In a “remarkable” disclosure, Canada’s national police force has described for the first time how it uses spyware to infiltrate mobile devices and collect data, including by remotely turning on the camera and microphone of a suspect’s phone or laptop.


I can't speak to the techniques or technology, but I can definitely speak to the legalities of this, and maybe ease some concerns, if anyone is willing to tolerate any more 'law nerd' out of me.

As a rule of thumb, there's a lot of stuff police in Canada cannot do arbitrarily. They cannot simply choose to enter a residence and look for drugs. They cannot simply tell a bank to hand over bank records to look for evidence of money laundering. They cannot force a person to give a DNA sample. They cannot sneak into a business and search it and not tell the owners or tenants til months later.

Of of these things need to be done sometimes for investigations, and so police seek permission from the court to do them. A Search Warrant is permission from a Justice of the Peace (JP) or a judge to search a place. A production order is an order to someone holding third party documents, records or data to hand them over to police.

To get any of these, a police officer has to convince a JP or a judge that the legal requirements are met. At the very lowest end, I can believe an offense has been or will be committed, and that it would _help the investigation _(super low threshold) if TD Bank confirmed for me who holds a give bank account number.

Let's say I get that and I want the actual account statements to see transactions- I have to convince a JP that I have reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been or will be committed, and that those documents or data _will afford evidence of the offence _(higher threshold)_._

If I want to then go into the business and search for stolen property that I think is in the back, I need to convince a JP that I have reasonable grounds to believe there is a _specific thing or things_ in a _specific place_ that will provide evidence of a _specific offence_. Getting a bit tougher still. When I execute that search warrant, the people whose place it is get a copy of it and get told about it, it's not sneaky.

Some warrants can only come from a judge. If I want to search a place covertly with delayed notification of the residents/tenants, for instance, I need to convince a judge that the investigative technique I want to use will provide information concerning the offence, and that it's in the best interest of the administration of justice to do it, and that no other type of judicial authorization can let me do what I want to do.  That same type of 'General Warrant' can authorize a lot of different stuff, but with the much higher oversight of coming only from a judge, and me being able to demonstrate why it's really necessary to do something probably quite intrusive.

All the way at the top of the mountain for 'hardest warrants to get' are warrants that authorize the Interception of Private Communication. These are also known as a 'wiretap' or a 'Part VI' (They're in Part VI of the Criminal Code). Any interception of private communication by police _must_ have either a warrant, or be in exigent circumstances, generally where it's immediately necessary to preserve life.

I'll skip over intercepts where one party consents, because that's not what's being spoken of in this article. Malware installed on someone's mobile device for the purpose of intercepting their communications is, well, an interception of private communications. A Part VI authorization is needed. To get one of those, police have to convince a judge of several things:

An offence has been or will been committed that wiretaps are permitted for. You can't wiretap every offence out there.
It's in the best interest of justice to do the wiretap (this is a check on intrusion into privacy)
Except for certain terrorism or organized crime offences, that it's an investigative necessity because other steps have been tried and failed, or are unlikely to succeed (this 'investigative necessity' is unique to wiretaps and is a REALLY high bar to cross)
Police also have to specifically tell the judge:

What type of communications may be intercepted
Who may be intercepted (if known)
Generally, where the communications will be intercepted
The period of time that the authorization remains valid (no more than 60 days without a judge's renewal except for certain terrorism or organized crime offences- a check on overly lengthy intercepts)
If interceptions have been requested and granted or denied on this investigation previously (a check on judge shopping or slopping investigation)
Before a judge even looks at it, it has to be reviewed and signed by a crown lawyer specifically trained and authorized as an 'agent' to review and sign these, to make sure a lawyer well versed in prosecutions is part of making sure the request itself is lawful and sound.

Legally, police installing malware on a device to intercept communications is basically the same as wiretapping a phone. It's super hard to get, and it's very costly and resource intensive to run one of those. Only major investigations get wiretaps.

Just caveating what I've written here, I haven't done a non-consent intercept warrant yet. While I spend most of my work time writing judicial authorizations these days; I'm not yet trained to do these. It's a tough course to get and a tough course to pass, and investigations where they're employed are limited (though when you have a wire up on a file it can be really friggin' cool, and you're probably working something worthy).

I hope this sheds some light. Sorry; tough to make this concise.


----------



## Booter

Brihard- in lots of jurisdictions part vi’s also were associated to an investigation where their was a crown involved in the file- is that the current experience as well? I’m not sure if that was a provincial practice or a larger thing. Like the investigation contained a crown advisor.


----------



## brihard

Booter said:


> Brihard- in lots of jurisdictions part vi’s also were associated to an investigation where their was a crown involved in the file- is that the current experience as well? I’m not sure if that was a provincial practice or a larger thing. Like the investigation contained a crown advisor.


Haven't been part of enough to say, but at least in my world, definitely if we're at the point where a Part VI is being done, there's gonna be a crown advising on the file. We aren't gonna commit that much expenditure and manpower without having crown on board to confirm we aren't full of shit.

Until quite recently my unit had an embedded crown. She wasn't file specific, but was basically a swiss army SME (though not a Part VI agent). Super useful to have; I was actually just hassling her today on my latest ITO.


----------



## Jarnhamar

brihard said:


> I hope this sheds some light. Sorry; tough to make this concise.


Thanks. Personally I find it very interesting as a citizen and  supervisor who deals with people getting in shit.


----------



## Jarnhamar

This is hilarious.

You can be fined up to $5000 for not wearing a mask on the train. Guess who found a loop hole. 


* Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train

The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated* 








						Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train
					

The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated




					nationalpost.com


----------



## CBH99

Jarnhamar said:


> This is hilarious.
> 
> You can be fined up to $5000 for not wearing a mask on the train. Guess who found a loop hole.
> 
> 
> * Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train
> 
> The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train
> 
> 
> The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


We REALLY NEED that facepalm emoji 🤦🏼‍♂️


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Actually, even if it fits in my wheelhouse the other guy becomes my foil.
> 
> We are living in the most prosperous, safest, time in human history here in Canada.......I won't apologize even a little for believing that we have it so good  and yet there are those who believe we've never had it so friggin' bad.
> 
> Left, right, whomever
> Oppression Obsession


You hang onto that thought, if it gives you comfort.


----------



## ModlrMike

Something something everybody's watching, something something nobody's watching.


----------



## Good2Golf

Jarnhamar said:


> This is hilarious.
> 
> You can be fined up to $5000 for not wearing a mask on the train. Guess who found a loop hole.
> 
> 
> * Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train
> 
> The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau, one of the only Western leaders to mandate masks on trains, spotted maskless on train
> 
> 
> The prime minister isn't breaking the law, however, as his train wasn't federally regulated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


His new haircut suits him…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

IATA now calling out our Government, sweet!









						“Canada has become a total outlier”: IATA slams reinstated random testing and other restrictions
					

MONTREAL — IATA has called out the Canadian government for reinstating unnecessary restrictions just as travel is taking off again.




					www.travelweek.ca
				




TrUsT ThE ScIeNcE!


----------



## Good2Golf

Humphrey Bogart said:


> IATA now calling out our Government, sweet!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “Canada has become a total outlier”: IATA slams reinstated random testing and other restrictions
> 
> 
> MONTREAL — IATA has called out the Canadian government for reinstating unnecessary restrictions just as travel is taking off again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.travelweek.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TrUsT ThE ScIeNcE!


That might mean something if the Feds actually gave a crap.  

The disdain the government shows for anyone not privileged enough to have their own government jet to spew hundreds of tonnes of CO2 into the air, is should be unacceptable…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Good2Golf said:


> That might mean something if the Feds actually gave a crap.
> 
> The disdain the government shows for anyone not privileged enough to have their own government jet to spew hundreds of tonnes of CO2 into the air, is should be unacceptable…


The really funny thing is the Government has successfully managed to convince Canadians (who are gullible beyond belief) that it's the Airline Industry's fault for all the delays 😉

It's actually mostly Government Regulators, Transport Canada and Airport Authorities who didn't anticipate increases in business and travel that were entirely predictable.


----------



## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:


> His new haircut suits him…


He's Lloyd? I agree. 


Humphrey Bogart said:


> The really funny thing is the Government has successfully managed to convince Canadians (who are gullible beyond belief) that it's the Airline Industry's fault for all the delays 😉
> 
> It's actually mostly Government Regulators, Transport Canada and Airport Authorities who didn't anticipate increases in business and travel that were entirely predictable.


AND the Minster of Transport blamed CANDIANS as well.


----------



## Good2Golf

OldSolduer said:


> AND the Minster of Transport blamed CANDIANS as well.


Seasoned gaslighters, all taking their cue from the senior gaslighter himself.


----------



## QV

People lost their jobs over vaccines Dr. Birx said she knew ‘didn’t work’
					

Dr. Deborah Birx served up a bombshell revelation about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines during an interview on Your World with Neil Cavuto. Birx, the former White House COVID-19 response coordinator and one of the two most recognizable spokespeople during the pandemic, along with Dr. Anthony…




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				




_Dr. Deborah Birx served up a bombshell revelation about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines during an interview on Your World with Neil Cavuto. Birx, the former White House COVID-19 response coordinator and one of the two most recognizable spokespeople during the pandemic, along with Dr. Anthony Fauci, __claimed the vaccines were overplayed and that she knew they didn’t work__.__ While this is shocking in and of itself, it is especially tragic given how many people had their employment terminated because they refused to get an ineffective and “overplayed” vaccine.
_
_"I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection," Birx said. "And I think we overplayed the vaccines, and it made people then worry that it's not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization. It will. But let's be very clear: 50% of the people who died from the omicron surge were older, vaccinated."_
_
Personally, I am vaccinated and boosted. I did it not because I am considered in one of the at-risk categories for COVID but because I
was told the vaccines would prevent me from unintentionally spreading it to other people, including my parents, who are in the at-risk categories, should I contract it. *Unfortunately, I still contracted COVID and still spread it to my mother.* __If I had known what Birx said she knew, I can safely say I would have never chosen to get vaccinated.__ Fortunately, my vaccination status was not a condition for my employment. Other people were not so lucky.


..._sigh... #followthescience #thescienceissettled #takethevaccinetoprotectothers


----------



## McG

Not working =

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555539294344847366?


----------



## OldSolduer

So tell me why we don't trust doctors, lawyers, police chiefs, scientists, lawyers, POLITICIANS etc

Victor Davis Hanson had a good write up in the Sun. 

When I see a major figure saying "this is bunk" I think we have good reason to distrust "experts"

One more thing:

THE science is never settled. If it were the barbers would still be doctors.


----------



## Blackadder1916

QV said:


> People lost their jobs over vaccines Dr. Birx said she knew ‘didn’t work’
> 
> 
> Dr. Deborah Birx served up a bombshell revelation about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines during an interview on Your World with Neil Cavuto. Birx, the former White House COVID-19 response coordinator and one of the two most recognizable spokespeople during the pandemic, along with Dr. Anthony…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.washingtonexaminer.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Dr. Deborah Birx served up a bombshell revelation about the efficacy of the COVID vaccines during an interview on Your World with Neil Cavuto. Birx, the former White House COVID-19 response coordinator and one of the two most recognizable spokespeople during the pandemic, along with Dr. Anthony Fauci, __claimed the vaccines were overplayed and that she knew they didn’t work__.__ While this is shocking in and of itself, it is especially tragic given how many people had their employment terminated because they refused to get an ineffective and “overplayed” vaccine._
> 
> _"I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection," Birx said. "And I think we overplayed the vaccines, and it made people then worry that it's not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization. It will. But let's be very clear: 50% of the people who died from the omicron surge were older, vaccinated."_


Let's see what Dr. Birx said completely instead of just the sentence that generated the "vaccine doesn't work" headline.









						PolitiFact - No, Dr. Deborah Birx didn't change her 'tune' on COVID vaccines
					

Dr. Deborah Birx, COVID-19 response coordinator under former President Donald Trump, didn't mince words as she spoke rec




					www.politifact.com
				



First, Birx did tell Fox News that she thought the vaccine was overplayed. But she also said the vaccine "will protect you." Here are her comments in full:

*Cavuto: *"I did want to get your take — a lot of people looking at the president having (COVID-19). And a lot of people vaxxed and boosted and they're getting it. The 20% of Americans who have not been vaccinated might look at that and say, 'Why bother? Why bother?' What do you tell them?"

*Birx: *"If you're across the South and you're in the middle of this wave, what is going to save you is Paxlovid. *But once we get through this wave, during that lull, you should get vaccinated and boosted, because we do believe it will protect you, particularly if you're over 70. I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against infection. I think we overplayed the vaccines, and it made people then worry that it's not going to protect against severe disease and hospitalization. It will.* But let's be very clear, 50% of the people who died from the omicron surge were older and vaccinated. Even if you're vaccinated and boosted, if you're unvaccinated, right now, the key is testing and Paxlovid. It's effective, it's a great antiviral. And really it's what's going to save your lives right now if you're over 70."

I know it's pushing a boulder uphill to argue semantics with some, but Dr Birx, despite the impression that she contributed to (or condoned the previous president by not contradicting) some of the previous president's outrageous suggestions (anyone remember bleach), speaks like a scientist, so maybe some explanation of the nuances of terms.  

"I knew these vaccines were not going to protect against *infection*"

John Hopkins University *differentiates between infection and disease* by writing that most COVID-19 vaccines do not prevent infection but do prevent infection from spreading within the body and causing severe illness. 

"Right now, we don't know how great these vaccines might be against preventing infection," Birx said in that Dec. 22, 2020, interview. "So, you may get a low-grade infection. And you may shed virus. *We know it protects against disease. And it protects against severe disease* … But what we don't know is, '*Does it protect against infection?*' And we'll be able to really understand that in the next few weeks to months."


----------



## QV

If it doesn’t stop infection and doesn’t stop transmission, only helps prevent worse outcomes for those in a very narrow risk group, wtf did you care if someone else took the vax or not?

If you still actually believe the drinking bleach hoax I‘m not sure anyone can help you.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldSolduer said:


> So tell me why we don't trust doctors, lawyers, police chiefs, scientists, lawyers, POLITICIANS etc
> 
> Victor Davis Hanson had a good write up in the Sun.
> 
> When I see a major figure saying "this is bunk" I think we have good reason to distrust "experts"
> 
> One more thing:
> 
> THE science is never settled. If it were the barbers would still be doctors.



VDH has his issues too....

The eternal wretchedness of Victor Davis Hanson

One of the conservative movement's "intellectual" lights has a habit of appalling factual sloppiness









						The eternal wretchedness of Victor Davis Hanson
					

One of the conservative movement's "intellectual" lights has a habit of appalling factual sloppiness




					www.salon.com


----------



## McG

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555717697329061889
This seems to match my observations (which are admittedly anecdotal).  Everyone has to wear masks where I work, and when someone on the team goes down it is just a someone. I contrast that to the work places other members of my family are in and when one person goes down there is a quarter of the team out of action within a couple days.

I suspect this is why CAF is still mandating masks. It’s less a worry about the vaccinated individual and more a matter of force protection and maintaining an operationally effective critical mass.


----------



## Quirky

CAF mask policy: “maybe it doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt!" 

It’s largely not enforced with no consequences. About 50% compliance with the odd “we still need to wear masks” email from the chief or CO. No one cares.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Topping out...


Executive exhaustion alert: rethinking ways to salvage top-end talent​ 
There is a deep need to acknowledge that everyone is susceptible to stretches of psychological challenge, and when the boss suffers, everyone suffers.

Have sympathy for the boss. The era of executive exhaustion is upon us.

It is fair to say that pity is tough to muster for those up the pay grade with the privileges and the prime parking spot. But research is showing that those leaders are spent, stressed and suffering. Their influence, though, means their problems are everyone’s.

Human nature is such that people can be told to use their oxygen mask first in a troubled airplane yet many will still try first to assist those they deem in less advantaged straits. This appears to have been the general case for the C-suite in COVID: they showered greater attention to those they were leading and had less attention left to take care of themselves. It hasn’t worked out.

The result two-and-a-half years into the pandemic is a senior leadership that feels drained, contending with physical and mental health challenges, and alone and unsupported. 

More than a year ago, Deloitte Canada and LifeWorks Research Group (formerly known as Morneau Shepell) surveyed a large Canadian cohort of 1,200 leaders and found four-fifths of them were fatigued, almost all said their mental health and well-being had declined in the pandemic and half were ready to either pack it in or drastically cut their commitments. 

A year later, says Deloitte executive adviser Zabeen Hirji, there is little reason to believe those numbers would have improved. 









						Opinion: Executive exhaustion alert: rethinking ways to salvage top-end talent
					

There is a deep need to acknowledge that everyone is susceptible to stretches of psychological challenge, and when the boss suffers, everyone suffers.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> CAF mask policy: “maybe it doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt!"
> 
> It’s largely not enforced with no consequences. About 50% compliance with the odd “we still need to wear masks” email from the chief or CO. No one cares.



Our Wing has gone back to masks required in some spaces (COs basically make the rules for their own Sqn lines).

I’m the COVID tracking/reporting pers for our Sqn; if what I’m hearing it correct, I think we might see things tighten down again shortly as case number climb again.  It’s a “protect the Force/Fleet” thing - commanders have to do what they can even if the mitigation in minimal. Like most wings/bases, our Covid protocol is separate from the provincial ones.

But you’re right, the level of concern isn’t the same as it was in say, the 3rd wave.

I was positive this past spring and then my wife shortly after.   The effects were fairly minimal but I will say I am glad for that, whatever the reason.  I bounced back to abou my 80% within a week but it took 2 months or so to recover energy levels and be free of the brain fog completely.


----------



## Quirky

Eye In The Sky said:


> I think we might see things tighten down again shortly as case number climb again.



So? If you are sick enough to stay home with some sniffles, does it matter if it's covid or not? People who think masks are a solution for anyone but healthcare professionals should stay away from me if they are sick or not, regardless of how many layers of fabric is on their face. Don't test, live normally and at this point it just perpetuates the hysteria.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> So? If you are sick enough to stay home with some sniffles, does it matter if it's covid or not? People who think masks are a solution for anyone but healthcare professionals should stay away from me if they are sick or not, regardless of how many layers of fabric is on their face. Don't test, live normally and at this point it just perpetuates the hysteria.



Masks are part of a mitigation strategy; nothing more.   Our wing protocol is actually based on common sense and treating people like adults; nice to see actually.

And like you mention, even if someone has symptoms the direction is “do not report to work” even if they test negative. 

Cases are trending up and I suspect prov govts will reintroduce measures after labour day and the CAF will do what it needs to do to ensure it maintains op capacity.  That’s our job; do what we can even if isn’t 100% effective.


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555717697329061889
> This seems to match my observations (which are admittedly anecdotal).  Everyone has to wear masks where I work, and when someone on the team goes down it is just a someone. I contrast that to the work places other members of my family are in and when one person goes down there is a quarter of the team out of action within a couple days.
> 
> *I suspect this is why CAF is still mandating masks. It’s less a worry about the vaccinated individual and more a matter of force protection and maintaining an operationally effective critical mass.*



Or, more likely, senior leadership covering its ass as per SOP.


----------



## GK .Dundas

I'm seeing that upward trend in numbers at work again. 
And I wonder not for the first time if this time we finally manage to do it. Actually collapse the medical system.
It actually was already prior to Covid  in need of some patching up . The funny part is that I think Manitoba was in better shape than some other parts of the country.


----------



## kev994

Quirky said:


> So? If you are sick enough to stay home with some sniffles, does it matter if it's covid or not? People who think masks are a solution for anyone but healthcare professionals should stay away from me if they are sick or not, regardless of how many layers of fabric is on their face. Don't test, live normally and at this point it just perpetuates the hysteria.


You’re not allowed to fly an airplane if you have COVID because it drastically increases your chances of getting hypoxia. What you’re proposing means that we would just let everyone get it and then not be able to do SAR, and joe public with their crashed plane or sinking boat can just wait 14 days for someone to come get him.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

kev994 said:


> You’re not allowed to fly an airplane if you have COVID because it drastically increases your chances of getting hypoxia. What you’re proposing means that we would just let everyone get it and then not be able to do SAR, and joe public with their crashed plane or sinking boat can just wait 14 days for someone to come get him.



We have a mandatory grounding protocol that ends with an assessment by aviation medicine quals clinician to get ungrounded, for confirmed positive or symptomatic. 

COVID has a definite impact on Air ops.   It needs to be mitigated as best as it can be.


----------



## McG

daftandbarmy said:


> Or, more likely, senior leadership covering its ass as per SOP.


Even if it’s CYA, what danger do you believe “they” are protecting themselves from if not the embarrassment of having forces unavailable for an emergency?


----------



## daftandbarmy

McG said:


> Even if it’s CYA, what danger do you believe “they” are protecting themselves from if not the embarrassment of having forces unavailable for an emergency?



The more paranoid the leader, the more likely they are to keep mask mandates going to avoid 'looking bad' if someone spikes a COVID + in their workplace. 

Perhaps certain workplaces, like the Aviation Sector, need to keep mask mandates in place but, since the Feds cancelled the mandate, there don't seem to be any firm policies or rationale in place for many others beyond a senior leader flinch factor.

Cancellation of Government Mask Mandates Leaves Canadian Employers to Decide for Themselves​
Some observers have suggested leaving a mask requirement in place as a hedge against renewed government mandates—better to leave a rule in place than be whipsawed by government policy changes. Acknowledging that some employers are taking a wait-and-see approach, Richards sees no appetite in the provinces for renewed mandates. "I don't think that's going to happen unless things get really bad," he said.

Employers that do adopt or continue their own mask rules should communicate the requirements and the reasons for them clearly and consistently. Government-required posters regarding masking may be coming down, but if the employer continues to require masking, it should not "leave space open to rumor," he said.









						Cancellation of Government Mask Mandates Leaves Canadian Employers to Decide for Themselves
					

The recent elimination of COVID-19-era mask requirements for most Canadian workplaces may have given employers a little more discretion than they are entirely prepared for.




					www.shrm.org


----------



## McG

Well, call it “flinch factor” if you want but preserving force capacity against the risk of another COVID spike is force protection. That would be senior CAF leaders doing their job even where it may not be popular.


----------



## PuckChaser

kev994 said:


> You’re not allowed to fly an airplane if you have COVID because it drastically increases your chances of getting hypoxia. What you’re proposing means that we would just let everyone get it and then not be able to do SAR, and joe public with their crashed plane or sinking boat can just wait 14 days for someone to come get him.


If we actually gave a shit about that, we'd order all aircrew and SAR to wear fitted N95 masks at all times. We should also order them into isolation 2-3 days before any HR recall or SAR shift so we know they're not going to get sick. That would be absolutely silly, much like pretending lowest bidder procedure masks worn for 8-10 hours per day are doing anything that you not spitting or sneezing into someone's face can accomplish.

COVID-19 moves as an aerosol in particles much smaller than any mask other than N95 can filter. The garbage masks we're wearing now only stop large respiratory droplets and sneezes. So does proper sneeze etiquette. 

What size particle is important to transmission of COVID-19? | Aerosol Laboratory

And in other news, Ontario has peaked with the 7th wave, and anticipates a weaker fall wave (oh look, its seasonally endemic) because a majority of Canadians have had COVID-19 at least once, and many have had it multiple times. The data is also showing our nursing shortage is due to COVID-Zero policies of hospitals, forcing nurses to sit on the sidelines for extended periods beyond recommendations in a futile hope to never have transmission in a hospital environment.

Seventh wave of COVID-19 in Ontario has peaked, chief medical officer of health says

The people clinging to masks are using them as a security blanket. You want one, go nuts but forcing everyone else to snuggle that blanket too is just ridiculous.


----------



## Jarnhamar

When will the Canadian Forces do away with their tyrannical and non-democratic rule that face masks must be a subdued colour?

Allowing me to have an orange, purple, and rose coloured beard but forcing me to hide it behind a green, brown, or tan coloured mask is against my human rights.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PuckChaser said:


> If we actually gave a shit about that, we'd order all aircrew and SAR to wear fitted N95 masks at all times. We should also order them into isolation 2-3 days before any HR recall or SAR shift so we know they're not going to get sick. That would be absolutely silly, much like pretending lowest bidder procedure masks worn for 8-10 hours per day are doing anything that you not spitting or sneezing into someone's face can accomplish.



Aircrew and SAR?  What do you mean by SAR?  Most aircrew / aircraft have a implied SAR tasking when they fly (some limitations are codified in orders for aircrew undergoing training/not qualified).

Mitigate is part of the HTEM (Hazard Threat Error Management) protocol we follow in military aviation under HPMA (Human Performance in Military Aviation) teaching; AVOID-TRAP-MITIGATE.  Mitigation is part of how we do business so I am happy to mitigate the COVID effect on air operations.  Mitigate (lessen the severity or seriousness of) isn’t the same as “eliminate”; but we still do what we can.   

COVID is affecting air ops daily.  Any commander who took on a “meh” approach would be negligently performing their duties IMO and probably find themselves relieved of their duties.


----------



## PuckChaser

By SAR I meant SAR Techs.

If you're not wearing N95s you're not doing your best to AVOID, are you? MITIGATE was accomplished by COVID-19 vaccinations. Masks have 0 impact on the severity or seriousness of a COVID-19 infection.


----------



## kev994

PuckChaser said:


> If we actually gave a shit about that, we'd order all aircrew and SAR to wear fitted N95 masks at all times. We should also order them into isolation 2-3 days before any HR recall or SAR shift so we know they're not going to get sick. That would be absolutely silly, much like pretending lowest bidder procedure masks worn for 8-10 hours per day are doing anything that you not spitting or sneezing into someone's face can accomplish.


We tried all this. You need to drink water or you get dehydrated, you need to eat lunch. The mask makes radio transmissions inaudible. It’s sunny above the clouds so you need sunglasses but they fog up. The shift schedule is such that most people don’t have 2-3 days between shifts, so they’d just be isolated forever, but actually 2-3 days is useless, you need 5-7 the last time I spoke to the WSurg about it. It’s not sustainable with the staffing we have.


----------



## kev994

PuckChaser said:


> By SAR I meant SAR Techs.
> 
> If you're not wearing N95s you're not doing your best to AVOID, are you? MITIGATE was accomplished by COVID-19 vaccinations. Masks have 0 impact on the severity or seriousness of a COVID-19 infection.


that’s 2 people out of a crew of 5-7. That doesn’t make any sense unless you think they’re going to drive themselves to the scene of the crash, in which case you should just send an ambulance.


----------



## PuckChaser

kev994 said:


> We tried all this. You need to drink water or you get dehydrated, you need to eat lunch. The mask makes radio transmissions inaudible. It’s sunny above the clouds so you need sunglasses but they fog up. The shift schedule is such that most people don’t have 2-3 days between shifts, so they’d just be isolated forever, but actually 2-3 days is useless, you need 5-7 the last time I spoke to the WSurg about it. It’s not sustainable with the staffing we have.


So if the aircrew has to take their masks off that often, wearing them at all is a waste. If we're serious about "protecting the force", we're doing a shit job of leave massive gaps in our protection measures. I mean, the PM just exposed his Challenger aircrew to COVID despite a federal air travel mask mandate because he's above the rules and had no mask on his flight to Costa Rica. So clearly he doesn't think it's serious.

Case in point: ILP in St. Jean has 120+ students shoulder to shoulder in an auditorium for 2 hours, masks required. Lunch time, course sits in a separate area in the cafeteria, shoulder to shoulder, no masks to eat. 45 minutes of unprotected exposure. Day ends, students all go back to the shacks in individual rooms but with shared bathrooms and recirculated air. No masks.

Either we really care about protecting everyone from ever getting COVID, or we don't. We're half-assing it, despite everyone but the Fed Gov dropping mask mandates, making it more political and virtual signalling than about any actual science.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PuckChaser said:


> By SAR I meant SAR Techs.



SAR Techs are aircrew.  They are part of the crew.



PuckChaser said:


> If you're not wearing N95s you're not doing your best to AVOID, are you? MITIGATE was accomplished by COVID-19 vaccinations. Masks have 0 impact on the severity or seriousness of a COVID-19 infection.



So mitigate can only have one aspect to it?

Masks have some ability to lessen the spread.  That is the point; lessen.

Body armour doesn’t guarantee people won’t get killed.  Should the army get rid of it?  Firefighting and DC doesn’t guarantee the navy won’t lose ships in combat. Should they stop training that stuff?


----------



## McG

PuckChaser said:


> Masks have 0 impact on the severity or seriousness of a COVID-19 infection.


You might be trying for hyperbole, but that doesn't stop this from being wrong.









						Masks Do More Than Protect Others During COVID-19: Reducing the Inoculum of SARS-CoV-2 to Protect the Wearer - Journal of General Internal Medicine
					

Although the benefit of population-level public facial masking to protect others during the COVID-19 pandemic has received a great deal of attention, we discuss for one of the first times the hypothesis that universal masking reduces the “inoculum” or dose of the virus for the mask-wearer...




					link.springer.com
				











						One More Reason to Wear a Mask: You’ll Get Less Sick From COVID-19
					

It’s likely that face masks, by blocking even some of the coronavirus-carrying droplets you inhale, can reduce your risk of falling seriously ill from COVID-19, according to Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease specialist at UCSF.




					www.ucsf.edu
				











						Why might face masks reduce COVID-19 severity?
					

A new study looks at why wearing face masks may reduce not just infection rates, but also COVID-19 disease severity. Suggestions point to humidity playing a role.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com
				











						Hidden benefit: Face masks may reduce COVID-19 severity, researchers find
					

Researchers have developed a model to investigate COVID-19 variolation — an incidental form of immunization achieved by inhaling smaller doses of the virus than would be inhaled without a mask.




					brighterworld.mcmaster.ca
				











						Facial Masking for Covid-19 — Potential for “Variolation” as We Await a Vaccine | NEJM
					

Perspective from The New England Journal of Medicine — Facial Masking for Covid-19 — Potential for “Variolation” as We Await a Vaccine



					www.nejm.org
				











						Face masking and COVID-19: potential effects of variolation on transmission dynamics | Journal of The Royal Society Interface
					

Face masks do not completely prevent transmission of respiratory infections, but masked individuals are likely to inhale fewer infectious particles. If smaller infectious doses tend to yield milder infections, yet ultimately induce similar levels of ...



					royalsocietypublishing.org


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Eye In The Sky said:


> SAR Techs are aircrew.  They are part of the crew.
> 
> 
> 
> So mitigate can only have one aspect to it?
> 
> Masks have some ability to lessen the spread.  That is the point; lessen.
> 
> Body armour doesn’t guarantee people won’t get killed.  Should the army get rid of it?  Firefighting and DC doesn’t guarantee the navy won’t lose ships in combat. Should they stop training that stuff?


That is a great post right there folks.......argue that one.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Masks probably do some good.  Would probably do some good against flu and common cold.  Reducing speed limits by 10 km/h would probably reduce collisions, injuries, and fatalities.  Probably more with another 10 km/h reduction.  Outlawing extreme activities would reduce injuries and fatalities.  Etc.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

PuckChaser said:


> So if the aircrew has to take their masks off that often, wearing them at all is a waste. If we're serious about "protecting the force", we're doing a shit job of leave massive gaps in our protection measures. I mean, the PM just exposed his Challenger aircrew to COVID despite a federal air travel mask mandate because he's above the rules and had no mask on his flight to Costa Rica. So clearly he doesn't think it's serious.
> 
> Case in point: ILP in St. Jean has 120+ students shoulder to shoulder in an auditorium for 2 hours, masks required. Lunch time, course sits in a separate area in the cafeteria, shoulder to shoulder, no masks to eat. 45 minutes of unprotected exposure. Day ends, students all go back to the shacks in individual rooms but with shared bathrooms and recirculated air. No masks.
> 
> Either we really care about protecting everyone from ever getting COVID, or we don't. We're half-assing it, despite everyone but the Fed Gov dropping mask mandates, making it more political and virtual signalling than about any actual science.


I think the goal of COVID mask policies is to make essential work so terrible that nobody wants to do it.  As witnessed by our declining number of medical professionals, aviation workers, supply chain professionals, etc 😆


----------



## SupersonicMax

Brad Sallows said:


> Masks probably do some good.  Would probably do some good against flu and common cold.  Reducing speed limits by 10 km/h would probably reduce collisions, injuries, and fatalities.  Probably more with another 10 km/h reduction.  Outlawing extreme activities would reduce injuries and fatalities.  Etc.


I am just curious what impact wearing a mask has, compared to limiting those other activities?


----------



## SupersonicMax

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I think the goal of COVID mask policies is to make essential work so terrible that nobody wants to do it.  As witnessed by our declining number of medical professionals, aviation workers, supply chain professionals, etc 😆


Labour shortage is across pretty much all sectors, not just essential workers.  Masks have little to do with the shortage. Demographics is the real culprit.


----------



## Brad Sallows

The point is that nearly every security/safety measure will have some beneficial impact, so it's trivially true to make that claim to advance some argument.  To be blunt: "it probably/provably does some good" is an infantile line of argument.


----------



## Mick

Brad Sallows said:


> The point is that nearly every security/safety measure will have some beneficial impact, so it's trivially true to make that claim to advance some argument.  To be blunt: "it probably/provably does some good" is an infantile line of argument.


Sure, but is "slight inconvenience" any less an infantile argument against "probably/provably" mitigating COVID transmission by wearing a mask?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

SupersonicMax said:


> Labour shortage is across pretty much all sectors, not just essential workers.  Masks have little to do with the shortage. Demographics is the real culprit.


It was a joke.

Everyone I work with is thankful we no longer have mandatory masking 😉, the job is already hard enough at times without mask zealots policing every move you make.

I've heard a couple of stories of guys getting confronted for taking their mask off to clean sweat, etc so they could work safely and being threatened with disciplinary action.  

Their answer was always, "Ok, I guess I'll just go home then!"  

"Ohhhhh no.... it wasn't actually that serious, we really need you to stay and finish the shift"   😆


----------



## kev994

Brad Sallows said:


> The point is that nearly every security/safety measure will have some beneficial impact, so it's trivially true to make that claim to advance some argument.  To be blunt: "it probably/provably does some good" is an infantile line of argument.


I thought you were advocating to lower the speed limit. I thought that was a good idea.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:


> The point is that nearly every security/safety measure will have some beneficial impact, so it's trivially true to make that claim to advance some argument.  To be blunt: "it probably/provably does some good" is an infantile line of argument.


Except you just made up "probably"........again, its hard when every drop of research is against you but you have this burning desire to cling to what you think is right.


----------



## kev994

kev994 said:


> I thought you were advocating to lower the speed limit. I thought that was a good idea.


There’s actually quite a bit of research proving your hypothesis, it’s a great idea. Effect of reducing the posted speed limit to 30 km per hour on pedestrian motor vehicle collisions in Toronto, Canada - a quasi experimental, pre-post study - BMC Public Health


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

kev994 said:


> There’s actually quite a bit of research proving your hypothesis, it’s a great idea. Effect of reducing the posted speed limit to 30 km per hour on pedestrian motor vehicle collisions in Toronto, Canada - a quasi experimental, pre-post study - BMC Public Health


Toronto can totally pass that speed limit if they want.  Just leave me out of it 😉

Time is the most valuable commodity in life.  I would def not want to double my commute time considering I have a time limit to report for duty whenever I'm called.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Toronto can totally pass that speed limit if they want.  Just leave me out of it 😉
> 
> Time is the most valuable commodity in life.  I would def not want to double my commute time considering I have a time limit to report for duty whenever I'm called.


So work is your life???


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Except you just made up "probably"........again, its hard when every drop of research is against you but you have this burning desire to cling to what you think is right.



As usual, I was writing about general ideas.  I will readily stipulate that pretty much any security/safety measure will do some good, just as I will readily stipulate that any dollar spent by government will do some good.  Neither of those things occurs in a vacuum, though.  "Every drop of research" just supports my stipulation.

Inconvenience is subjective.  I find masks very inconvenient.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> There’s actually quite a bit of research proving your hypothesis, it’s a great idea.



Pity it can't be done without imposing other costs.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So work is your life???


No the time I have in between my work shifts is my life.  The less time I have to waste transitioning between the two, the better 😁


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Nice of Health Canada to finally acknowledge that vaccines DO have some side effects 🤣






						COVID-19: Vaccine safety and side effects - Canada.ca
					

COVID-19 vaccine safety, common and rare side effects, allergic reactions and monitoring.




					www.canada.ca
				




Then there is this:






						Vaccine safety and possible side effects - Canada.ca
					

Accurate information on vaccine safety, side effects, reactions, vaccine ingredients, immunity and breastfeeding.




					www.canada.ca
				




Government "We know we broke your leg but you should be grateful that we gave you crutches!"


----------



## Quirky

kev994 said:


> You’re not allowed to fly an airplane


That affects a very insignificant portion of the population.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Nice of Health Canada to finally acknowledge that vaccines DO have some side effects 🤣
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Vaccine safety and side effects - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine safety, common and rare side effects, allergic reactions and monitoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there is this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine safety and possible side effects - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Accurate information on vaccine safety, side effects, reactions, vaccine ingredients, immunity and breastfeeding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Government "We know we broke your leg but you should be grateful that we gave you crutches!"



Seriously??   How do folks who are normally very smart forward thinking people get so stupid when it comes to vaccine stuff.....nothing on there that hasn't been known, and explained, years ago now.


----------



## Remius

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Seriously??   How do folks who are normally very smart forward thinking people get so stupid when it comes to vaccine stuff.....nothing on there that hasn't been known, and explained, years ago now.


Belt fed misinformation.  And a desire or need to believe in it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Seriously??   How do folks who are normally very smart forward thinking people get so stupid when it comes to vaccine stuff.....nothing on there that hasn't been known, and explained, years ago now.



And that's just the anti-vaxxers amongst health care professionals 

Doubt at the core: Unspoken vaccine hesitancy among healthcare workers​
Healthcare workers are a priority target population in current COVID-19 vaccination strategies because of their increased workplace exposure and contacts with potentially at-risk patients

In some European countries such as Belgium, Greece, and France, COVID-19 vaccination is now required for this group. However, studies show that a varying but often substantial proportion of healthcare workers are hesitant about receiving these vaccinations.


This is extremely relevant for vaccination campaigns, as healthcare workers are among the most trusted sources of vaccine information and have a direct influence on the vaccination decisions of their patients and social contacts.

Furthermore, insufficient vaccination uptake risks increasing COVID-19 infections, most likely leading to more hospitalizations and less available health staff, increasing the workload in hospitals, and thus reducing health system capacities to adequately respond to the epidemic. Health professionals often do not voice their vaccine-related concerns, particularly to colleagues, due to the institutional and societal pressures to vaccinate. We may frame this phenomenon as _unspoken vaccine hesitancy._

This unspoken vaccine hesitancy appears at a time when people's vaccination status has become a source of widespread tension and social division within and across communities globally. The active polarization between the vaccinated and unvaccinated may further inhibit the expression of anxieties that must be addressed. Especially among healthcare workers, merely voicing vaccine-related concerns entails a risk of being lectured, mocked, stigmatized, or labeled as conspiracy theorists and ‘anti-vaxxers’. 

This risk is compounded by societal expectations that healthcare workers must protect individuals in their care, implying that these workers have a moral obligation to be vaccinated. This moral obligation can exacerbate pressure on health professionals who are hesitant about COVID-19 vaccines. When healthcare workers cannot express their hesitancy, their concerns become more difficult to address. 

In these circumstance health professionals may also face difficulties cultivating trust in Covid-19 vaccines among the lay individuals whom they attend. As such, unspoken hesitancy could reduce the core public trust in COVID-19 vaccines and vaccination programs across countries. It could also jeopardize future vaccination campaigns beyond COVID-19. Although literature is scarce on the topic, “silent refusals’ have been identified as a major challenge to vaccination uptake in Pakistan.



			DEFINE_ME


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Quirky said:


> That affects a very insignificant portion of the population.



It potentially can affect anyone who flies.  If a plane crashes into an urban area it will likely affect people there too.









						Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




After testing positive or having symptoms, at my Wing we have to do a short test that specifically looks at oxygenation levels before and during a short physical test; the big concern being ability for body to continue to put oxygen into the blood.   If it’s not happening correctly at ground level/pressure, it won’t get better at cabin altitude/lower partial pressure.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Vax hesitancy/resistance/etc.  Next time politicians start blackguarding vaccines for mere political advantage, they should be taken out back and beaten senseless.  Figuratively, of course.  Media and the politicians' own supporters, that means you.


----------



## daftandbarmy

And this little piggy went 'wee, wee, wee' all the way home 

Many federal government employees balking at returning to offices​Employees complaining about risk of COVID-19, bad offices and confusion over back-to-office plans​

The federal government is facing pushback from employees reluctant to return to government offices after more than two years working from home.

Online forums for public servants have exploded in recent weeks with comments about the prospect of returning to offices, with employees comparing notes on the hybrid work plans each department is planning to adopt.

One comment by a Health Canada manager urging employees to return to the office, in part, to provide employees at a nearby Subway restaurant with more hours, blew up into a series of sarcastic memes online. 

A comment by a Health Canada manager urging employees to return to the office, in part, so that employees at a local Subway restaurant would get more hours sparked an explosion of memes in online discussions among federal workers. (Screen capture from Canada's Federal Public Service on Reddit)
Public service unions say that while some employees want to return to working in government offices or are happy with a hybrid arrangement, a majority want to keep working from home as Canada experiences a seventh wave of COVID-19.

"We have done studies of our membership that show that 60 per cent of our members would prefer to stay in a work from home situation, 25 per cent would like to do a hybrid and 10 per cent would like to come back to the office full time," said Jennifer Carr, president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada (PIPSC), which represents about 70,000 workers, including scientists and computer specialists.

Union wants remote work included in collective agreements​Carr said the union has been flooded with messages from concerned members.

"I would say that our inbox is now 90 per cent about return to the office, how people are not feeling comfortable, how they have questions about masking requirements, about the need and the necessity to come into the office when they can work in the safety of their own home and do the work efficiently."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-canadian-government-work-1.6543860?cmp=newsletter_Morning%20Headlines%20from%20CBC%20News_1613_645026


----------



## Brad Sallows

Eventually I'm going to suffer another respiratory infection (cold, flu, COVID, whatever).

But over five years ago my work pattern shifted from always in-office to at-home with one afternoon in-office.  I stopped using public transit and commuted by car for the half-day.  No respiratory infections since (none that rose to a threshold to be noticeable, anyways).  Used to reliably get one a year, often two.

I can guess that the main venue of exposure was public transit.  Hardly a trip in winter without at least one passenger in the vehicle sniffling, hacking, sneezing, red-eyed...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Seriously??   How do folks who are normally very smart forward thinking people get so stupid when it comes to vaccine stuff.....nothing on there that hasn't been known, and explained, years ago now.


Yup ...


Humphrey Bogart said:


> COVID-19: Vaccine safety and side effects - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine safety, common and rare side effects, allergic reactions and monitoring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca


This site's been up since at least middle of last year, so this isn't news.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> Vaccine safety and possible side effects - Canada.ca
> 
> 
> Accurate information on vaccine safety, side effects, reactions, vaccine ingredients, immunity and breastfeeding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca


Also around since end of 2020.


----------



## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:


> And this little piggy went 'wee, wee, wee' all the way home
> 
> Many federal government employees balking at returning to offices...​


Not wanting to go back to the office, I suspect, is a complex stew where COVID worries is just one ingredient.

I know people who've been told by their directors, "you don't need to be in the office to get your work done - go clean out your cubicle because we need the room for folks who have to be there" who are now being told by higher bosses, "_everyone_ shall be in the office (that we own/lease/rent) at least 1 day a week as of September."  Yeah, whoever mentioned comms is an issue is also correct ....


----------



## dapaterson

Imagine if the federal public service could hire the best people for a job in the HQ - regardless of where they live in Canada.

Imagine if the federal public service could downsize about 30-40% of its real property holdings.

Or, we can just send everyone back to the office...


----------



## PuckChaser

We could downsize the RP holdings and federal public service by 30-40% without work from home by firing all the deadweight. Most of the "WFH" crowd haven't done a damn thing in 2 years and are scared the gravy train is going to end.

There are legitimate data entry jobs that can be done from home, and those jobs should have performance targets and software to track online time.

Case in point: Base ISSO working from home cannot handle any classified system reports because the individual only has DWAN access. Not a single ISSIR for classified systems has been handled for years. Still makes great money doing 50% of the job.


----------



## kev994

dapaterson said:


> Or, we can just send everyone back to the office...


… in order to justify having the office


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The Bread Guy said:


> Yup ...
> 
> This site's been up since at least middle of last year, so this isn't news.
> 
> Also around since end of 2020.


If you're going to try and call bullshit, you gotta actually read all the information.  Compare the two pages.  They have different information which was only just updated on the 5th August.

Here is a snip it for you:



Vs what I linked:



There is additional information there now like how the vaccines could cause complications like myocarditis (I have a friend on TCAT for this right now, 33 years old was completely healthy before).

I had my own complications after my 3rd dose, here is a photo:



Hives have been breaking out all over my body since getting my 3rd mRNa vaccine.  I was on double dose of reactine for two months and I am now down to 1 tablet every few days.

My brother had the exact same reaction and I know at least half a dozen other people that have had the same issue. 

I was told by the Doctor "It couldn't possibly be the vaccine" when I went to get checked.  But enough anecdotal evidence now to know it did something to me.

I ended up getting COVID a month later anyways.

I'm not getting another mRNa vaccine until I'm satisfied proper research has been done on this.


----------



## Quirky

Eye In The Sky said:


> It potentially can affect anyone who flies. If a plane crashes into an urban area it will likely affect people there too.
> 
> 
> After testing positive or having symptoms, at my Wing we have to do a short test that specifically looks at oxygenation levels before and during a short physical test; the big concern being ability for body to continue to put oxygen into the blood. If it’s not happening correctly at ground level/pressure, it won’t get better at cabin altitude/lower partial pressure.



At this point I have no trust in RCAF aircraft from the mechanical sense, not issues from pilots passing out because of exposure to COVID. Great vaccines btw, they don't prevent infection, don't prevent symptoms and don't prevent transmission. Trust the science. 



daftandbarmy said:


> The federal government is facing pushback from employees reluctant to return to government offices after more than two years working from home.



If they are pushing back from fear of COVID, they can all be let out to pasture and fired. I'd be reluctant to return to the office due to costs and time wasted from the commutes, not some bug.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Quirky said:


> At this point I have no trust in RCAF aircraft from the mechanical sense, not issues from pilots passing out because of exposure to COVID. Great vaccines btw, they don't prevent infection, don't prevent symptoms and don't prevent transmission. Trust the science.
> 
> 
> 
> If they are pushing back from fear of COVID, they can all be let out to pasture and fired. I'd be reluctant to return to the office due to costs and time wasted from the commutes, not some bug.


People flying around in 50 year old pieces of junk or sailing in mold infested ships with cracks in the hull suddenly worrying about getting a disease that has killed how many CAF members?  
Has anyone from the CAF even died from COVID?  Not that I know of.  Being a member of the Snowbirds is more dangerous.

150,000 cases in healthcare workers, 46 deaths in two years:






						COVID-19 cases and deaths in health care workers in Canada — infographic | CIHI
					

This infographic shows the number of COVID-19 cases and deaths in health care workers in Canada.




					www.cihi.ca


----------



## brihard

PuckChaser said:


> We could downsize the RP holdings and federal public service by 30-40% without work from home by firing all the deadweight. Most of the "WFH" crowd haven't done a damn thing in 2 years and are scared the gravy train is going to end.
> 
> There are legitimate data entry jobs that can be done from home, and those jobs should have performance targets and software to track online time.
> 
> Case in point: Base ISSO working from home cannot handle any classified system reports because the individual only has DWAN access. Not a single ISSIR for classified systems has been handled for years. Still makes great money doing 50% of the job.


The overwhelming majority of the federal public service doesn’t have to deal with classified information systems. Most will use pro B at most and that’s easily done from home. An ISSO who has to work with classified systems is a bad example for generalizing to the rest of the government.

I have several neighbours whose work is sometimes on classified or otherwise sensitive (non-fed, but still sensitive) networks. They’ve been able to balance work form home or from office as needed. Hell, while I personally prefer working from the office, and mostly have, the majority of what I’ve done in the past year could have been done from home.

Your average public servant whose job is in front of a computer all day, dealing with requests, proposals, data and reports, most of which isn’t even protected, none of which is above pro B, can easily work remotely. It’s been proven viable.

Are there dogfuckers abusing the system? Absolutely, but there were anyway. It’s up to managers to keep people accountable for output.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> If you're going to try and call bullshit, you gotta actually read all the information.  Compare the two pages.  They have different information which was only just updated on the 5th August.
> 
> Here is a snip it for you:
> 
> View attachment 72383
> 
> Vs what I linked:
> 
> View attachment 72382
> 
> There is additional information there now like how the vaccines could cause complications like myocarditis (I have a friend on TCAT for this right now, 33 years old was completely healthy before).
> 
> I had my own complications after my 3rd dose, here is a photo:
> 
> View attachment 72384
> 
> Hives have been breaking out all over my body since getting my 3rd mRNa vaccine.  I was on double dose of reactine for two months and I am now down to 1 tablet every few days.
> 
> My brother had the exact same reaction and I know at least half a dozen other people that have had the same issue.
> 
> I was told by the Doctor "It couldn't possibly be the vaccine" when I went to get checked.  But enough anecdotal evidence now to know it did something to me.
> 
> I ended up getting COVID a month later anyways.
> 
> I'm not getting another mRNa vaccine until I'm satisfied proper research has been done on this.


Fair enough - you're right, I didn't do all my homework & new shit has come to light (although never denied).  Here's hoping things get better for ya soon.


----------



## winds_13

Humphrey Bogart, what you posted about the changes in wording regarding allergic reactions is quite significant. Although quite rare in the general population, risk of anaphylaxis following vaccination was arguably a significant risk to those with known demographic factors (women with severe allergies). Despite this, it was only considered a vaccine contraindication if someone was allergic to a specific vaccine component. Later, it was only a contraindication if someone if someone had a severe reaction to a first vaccine dose, then it was stated that it was safe to get a second dose after having a severe reaction to a first dose.

According to this journal article, "The median age of patients with anaphylaxis was 40 years (range =27–60 years), and 90% of the reported cases occurred in women. 27 Allergic reactions often, but not always, occurred in people with a previous history of severe allergic reactions, many of them carrying an adrenaline (epinephrine) auto‐injector." This would suggest elevated risk to this specific demographic. There are several other studies with similar findings.








						Management of anaphylaxis due to COVID‐19 vaccines in the elderly
					

Older adults, especially men and/or those with diabetes, hypertension, and/or obesity, are prone to severe COVID‐19. In some countries, older adults, particularly those residing in nursing homes, have been prioritized to receive COVID‐19 ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




"if we are able to identify individuals with a predisposition to anaphylaxis, precautionary measures may be taken such as additional monitoring, and the use of other types of COVID-19 vaccines can be considered for those individuals"








						Sex differences in the incidence of anaphylaxis to LNP-mRNA COVID-19 vaccines
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




When it was found that risk of anaphylaxis was rare following a second vaccine dose, it was also suggested that the initial reactions were not classic allergies. However, the demographic factors for a severe reaction to a first dose remained, and classification of anaphylaxis suggests that the reaction is potentially life threatening.








						No anaphylaxis after second dose of mRNA COVID vaccine, study finds
					






					www.cidrap.umn.edu
				




Despite all this data, it was nonetheless impossible for women with pre-existing severe allergies (ones where an epi-pen is prescribed) to be given medical exemptions from vaccination. Rather, I know of several that were fired or placed on LWOP, after being denied exemptions to vaccine mandates. Some were told by their doctor's that they would give them medical exemptions if they could but that they'd risk losing their licenses. Other doctors simply dismissed any concerns, suggesting that the individual should get vaccinated even if they had already contracted COVID and recovered, without experiencing any severe side effects. If they were not at risk of severe disease, and the vaccine demonstrated very limited ability to prevent spread in the long-term, then why were these people denied the ability to work, even from home (Public Service mandate), participate in society (when vaccine passports were in place), and travel by plane/train/boat (federal travel mandate)?



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/covid-19-vaccine-allergic-reaction-1.5856827
		




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/first-person-vaccine-hesitancy-1.6180259


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> . Most of the "WFH" crowd haven't done a damn thing in 2 years and are scared the gravy train is going to end.
> 
> There are legitimate data entry jobs that can be done from home, and those jobs should have performance targets and software to track online time.


I bet you have nothing to back that up with any real facts or numbers. 

I’ve been working from home since this started,  I was an instructor that would teach on location or travel across the country.  The first few months was adapting our courses and designing the training as virtual classes.  Then delivering the training. Which I found far more exhausting than the in person version.  The training development side still churned at its normal pace office or not.

I switched jobs mid pandemic and am now working on HR solutions for staffing shortages.  My days are full. And I find myself logging earlier and sometimes later.  I don’t even track my hours in that regard.  The people that report to me are also busy and some are burning out.  But in a lot of cases most people just want to be busy. 

There are performance targets.  And a lot of departments are using some software to track.  GAC for example has software that tracks idleness and TEAMS has an indicator when someone hasn’t been on for a specified time.  

As to being scared of the gravy train ending?  I don’t know for sure.  Most of our people prefer the WFH option or a hybrid model rather than a full return.  We have a space issue to begin with so until that’s solved I doubt we’ll see a full return. 

Speaking from my HR chair, I can tell you that most people that are applying or looking to deploy are all askimg about the WFH option and pretty much turning down opportunities if the working conditions are not to their liking.  Departments are poaching from within and it’s getting harder and harder to get people in because processes are getting more difficult to run.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I caught a statement by a doctor over the radio a few days ago.  In it he talks about the Canadian government compensation benefit for people who have gotten sick from vaccines (not just covid) that was started last year. He was saying almost 800 people have applied. 70- some have been denied and only 7 or 8 have been approved so far. 

The radio interviewed some of the people (and their families) who became sick from the vaccine and are off work. Some apparently developed other diseases from the vaccine but they're being left to sit around and wait.


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:


> I bet you have nothing to back that up with any real facts or numbers.


I have countless anecdotes from friends and coworkers trying to contact PS employees who are managing critical projects who neither answer emails, nor are able to be contacted by phone because they're working from home and have not updated contact information with their home phone number. PSPC procurements went to urgent operational requirements only. CSEC is years behind certifying new devices because the 2 or 3 engineers they have that do the testing are "working from home".

Yep, everything about work from home is amazing and the Public Service which has never had an issue with folks just collecting a pay cheque, has only 1 or 2 issues with folks abusing the system. Man, the rainbows must be glorious in your world.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> I have countless anecdotes from friends and coworkers trying to contact PS employees who are managing critical projects who neither answer emails, nor are able to be contacted by phone because they're working from home and have not updated contact information with their home phone number. PSPC procurements went to urgent operational requirements only. CSEC is years behind certifying new devices because the 2 or 3 engineers they have that do the testing are "working from home".
> 
> Yep, everything about work from home is amazing and the Public Service which has never had an issue with folks just collecting a pay cheque, has only 1 or 2 issues with folks abusing the system. Man, the rainbows must be glorious in your world.


Didn’t say it was perfect, I take issue with your anecdotes from friends that somehow translates to “Most of the WFH crowd haven’t done a damn thing in two years.”

How about you stay in your lane and stop spreading stereotypes and myths. Or using that giant one coloured brush you use to paint everything one colour.


----------



## PuckChaser

Remius said:


> Didn’t say it was perfect, I take issue with your anecdotes from friends that somehow translates to “Most of the WFH crowd haven’t done a damn thing in two years.”
> 
> How about you stay in your lane and stop spreading stereotypes and myths. Or using that giant one coloured brush you use to paint everything one colour.


When PS working from home directly affects my ability to do my job, it's my lane. I'm good buds, thanks.


----------



## Remius

PuckChaser said:


> When PS working from home directly affects my ability to do my job, it's my lane. I'm good buds, thanks.


Ah so broad brush uninformed comments is your thing?  Back it up with facts and numbers then you’ll be good “buds”. 

You started this with your comment.  I’m calling BS on it.  Maybe you’ve had problems with some.  Tough luck.  Given your attitude I would’nt return your calls either.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> Ah so broad brush uninformed comments is your thing?  Back it up with facts and numbers then you’ll be good “buds”.
> 
> You started this with your comment.  I’m calling BS on it.  Maybe you’ve had problems with some.  Tough luck.  Given your attitude I would’nt return your calls either.



To be fair, where he works and what he works with, there absolutely should be fast responsiveness from the other government departments involved in ensuring timely acquisition of key kit and continuity of operations. Let’s not pretend there aren’t and haven’t been fail points where remote work has been inadequately risk managed, with significant knock on effects to important operations or files. That has definitely happened too.

I still reject the notion that it’s the majority, or that most PS work cannot be effectively done remotely. I do concede that some things have fallen well short of acceptable, and that this system is more ‘playable’ to those inclined to do so. There needs to be strong management to make this stuff work, and not all elements of the PS will necessarily recognize themselves to be technical or logistical linchpins in files of national interest.

I’m fine with a forward looking effort to make more of the PS hybrid or remote, but there will need to be some selective disregard of people’s feelings on the matter where key operations are implicated.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> To be fair, where he works and what he works with, there absolutely should be fast responsiveness from the other government departments involved in ensuring timely acquisition of key kit and continuity of operations. Let’s not pretend there aren’t and haven’t been fail points where remote work has been inadequately risk managed, with significant knock on effects to important operations or files. That has definitely happened too.
> 
> I still reject the notion that it’s the majority, or that most PS work cannot be effectively done remotely. I do concede that some things have fallen well short of acceptable, and that this system is more ‘playable’ to those inclined to do so. There needs to be strong management to make this stuff work, and not all elements of the PS will necessarily recognize themselves to be technical or logistical linchpins in files of national interest.
> 
> I’m fine with a forward looking effort to make more of the PS hybrid or remote, but there will need to be some selective disregard of people’s feelings on the matter where key operations are implicated.


I never said there weren’t problems.  If he had stopped with that, ie the problems he’s had or having I wouldn’t have taken issue.  His broad brush that “most of the wfh” have done nothing in two years was a broad brush statement.


----------



## brihard

Remius said:


> I never said there weren’t problems.  If he had stopped with that, ie the problems he’s had or having I wouldn’t have taken issue.  His broad brush that “most of the wfh” have done nothing in two years was a broad brush statement.
> 
> Then his snarky rainbow answer made it personnal because someone dared to counter his world view.


Fair.


----------



## Remius

But…

To add to that.  My wife is struggling to get people in for even one day a week.  They work and they aren’t doing “nothing” but they are resisting a return to the office.   So I get the struggle some are having.  

I suspect the 10% percent causing the 90% of problems are the same.  Working from home or from the office.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Remius said:


> But…
> 
> To add to that.  My wife is struggling to get people in for even one day a week.  They work and they aren’t doing “nothing” but they are resisting a return to the office.   So I get the struggle some are having.
> 
> I suspect the 10% percent causing the 90% of problems are the same.  Working from home or from the office.



Employees' primary jobs at work are getting in the way of their side hustles at home, which are being subsidized by their primary jobs. 

How inconvenient


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The Bread Guy said:


> Fair enough - you're right, I didn't do all my homework & new shit has come to light (although never denied).  Here's hoping things get better for ya soon.


I'm not mad, I'm more frustrated that there seems to be a dismissive tone to anyone with any concerns and this has been inflammed by our Government.  They've turned health and vaccines in to a wedge issue.  I'm not some anti-vaxxer either, I'm triple vaxxed for god sakes.

I can tell you that I won't be getting another shot of an mRNA vaccine until more studies are conducted (especially since I've had COVID twice since my 3rd shot and it didn't even phase me) and I won't be supporting a Government that forces people thru coercive methods to put things in their bodies.



winds_13 said:


> Humphrey Bogart, what you posted about the changes in wording regarding allergic reactions is quite significant. Although quite rare in the general population, risk of anaphylaxis following vaccination was arguably a significant risk to those with known demographic factors (women with severe allergies). Despite this, it was only considered a vaccine contraindication if someone was allergic to a specific vaccine component. Later, it was only a contraindication if someone if someone had a severe reaction to a first vaccine dose, then it was stated that it was safe to get a second dose after having a severe reaction to a first dose.
> 
> According to this journal article, "The median age of patients with anaphylaxis was 40 years (range =27–60 years), and 90% of the reported cases occurred in women. 27 Allergic reactions often, but not always, occurred in people with a previous history of severe allergic reactions, many of them carrying an adrenaline (epinephrine) auto‐injector." This would suggest elevated risk to this specific demographic. There are several other studies with similar findings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Management of anaphylaxis due to COVID‐19 vaccines in the elderly
> 
> 
> Older adults, especially men and/or those with diabetes, hypertension, and/or obesity, are prone to severe COVID‐19. In some countries, older adults, particularly those residing in nursing homes, have been prioritized to receive COVID‐19 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "if we are able to identify individuals with a predisposition to anaphylaxis, precautionary measures may be taken such as additional monitoring, and the use of other types of COVID-19 vaccines can be considered for those individuals"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sex differences in the incidence of anaphylaxis to LNP-mRNA COVID-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When it was found that risk of anaphylaxis was rare following a second vaccine dose, it was also suggested that the initial reactions were not classic allergies. However, the demographic factors for a severe reaction to a first dose remained, and classification of anaphylaxis suggests that the reaction is potentially life threatening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No anaphylaxis after second dose of mRNA COVID vaccine, study finds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cidrap.umn.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite all this data, it was nonetheless impossible for women with pre-existing severe allergies (ones where an epi-pen is prescribed) to be given medical exemptions from vaccination. Rather, I know of several that were fired or placed on LWOP, after being denied exemptions to vaccine mandates. Some were told by their doctor's that they would give them medical exemptions if they could but that they'd risk losing their licenses. Other doctors simply dismissed any concerns, suggesting that the individual should get vaccinated even if they had already contracted COVID and recovered, without experiencing any severe side effects. If they were not at risk of severe disease, and the vaccine demonstrated very limited ability to prevent spread in the long-term, then why were these people denied the ability to work, even from home (Public Service mandate), participate in society (when vaccine passports were in place), and travel by plane/train/boat (federal travel mandate)?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/covid-19-vaccine-allergic-reaction-1.5856827
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/first-person-vaccine-hesitancy-1.6180259


Yep the denial from medical professionals at the behest of the Government is what really pissed me off.

I did what I was told, like the good soldier I was and then when something happened, you get told "no that can't be the case, impossible!".  


Jarnhamar said:


> I caught a statement by a doctor over the radio a few days ago.  In it he talks about the Canadian government compensation benefit for people who have gotten sick from vaccines (not just covid) that was started last year. He was saying almost 800 people have applied. 70- some have been denied and only 7 or 8 have been approved so far.
> 
> The radio interviewed some of the people (and their families) who became sick from the vaccine and are off work. Some apparently developed other diseases from the vaccine but they're being left to sit around and wait.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vaccine-injury-support-program-covid-19-pfizer-vaccine-paralysis-1.6496761
		


A year later, still waiting for support for our overlords!

This is what really disturbs me.  You want to coerce people to do something, fine, but you better have a plan to help the people you burn in the process.



Remius said:


> But…
> 
> To add to that.  My wife is struggling to get people in for even one day a week.  They work and they aren’t doing “nothing” but they are resisting a return to the office.   So I get the struggle some are having.
> 
> I suspect the 10% percent causing the 90% of problems are the same.  Working from home or from the office.


My work is adamantly against work from home.  They told the people working from home they could resign or return to the office.  The major reason being it doesn't look good when all the trades persons and employees at the coal face are on the ground busting themselves and HQ and Management is at home in pajamas.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:


> Ah so broad brush uninformed comments is your thing?  Back it up with facts and numbers then you’ll be good “buds”.
> 
> You started this with your comment.  I’m calling BS on it.  Maybe you’ve had problems with some.  Tough luck.  Given your attitude I would’nt return your calls either.


It's pretty hard to back anything our civil service does with facts because they don't even use operating metrics and SOP is to cook the books.  

e.g. every Government Procurement project ever 🤣


----------



## Good2Golf

Humphrey Bogart said:


> This is what really disturbs me. You want to coerce people to do something, fine, but you better have a plan to help the people you burn in the process.


The people are asking for more than the government can giveTM.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm not mad, I'm more frustrated that there seems to be a dismissive tone to anyone with any concerns and this has been inflammed by our Government.  They've turned health and vaccines in to a wedge issue.  I'm not some anti-vaxxer either, I'm triple vaxxed for god sakes.


MORE than allowed to be that - and you're not alone there.  On the glass-is-half-full side, I can also see Big Gov't/State being bigly cautious about specific claims until they're more certain.  Hence the "there could be bad shit, speak to your doc" early messages vs. the more detailed stuff lately.  A lot of the debate can also centre on where on the dial info should be re:  "how SURE are we?" before it's stated on paper (so to speak).  Small "c" conservative caution leads to broader strokes messaging.  Specific policies?  Up to the politicos to flick the switch.


----------



## Quirky

Remius said:


> My wife is struggling to get people in for even one day a week.



Fire them and find people who are willing to work. This isn't the military.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I enjoyed watching some people flip from "we need to be really sure vaccines are safe, and not be hasty" to "everyone get vaccinated, now, now, now!".


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm not mad, I'm more frustrated that there seems to be a dismissive tone to anyone with any concerns and this has been inflammed by our Government.  They've turned health and vaccines in to a wedge issue.  I'm not some anti-vaxxer either, I'm triple vaxxed for god sakes.
> 
> I can tell you that I won't be getting another shot of an mRNA vaccine until more studies are conducted (especially since I've had COVID twice since my 3rd shot and it didn't even phase me) and I won't be supporting a Government that forces people thru coercive methods to put things in their bodies.
> 
> 
> Yep the denial from medical professionals at the behest of the Government is what really pissed me off.
> 
> I did what I was told, like the good soldier I was and then when something happened, you get told "no that can't be the case, impossible!".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vaccine-injury-support-program-covid-19-pfizer-vaccine-paralysis-1.6496761
> 
> 
> 
> A year later, still waiting for support for our overlords!
> 
> This is what really disturbs me.  You want to coerce people to do something, fine, but you better have a plan to help the people you burn in the process.
> 
> 
> My work is adamantly against work from home.  They told the people working from home they could resign or return to the office.  The major reason being it doesn't look good when all the trades persons and employees at the coal face are on the ground busting themselves and HQ and Management is at home in pajamas.



The whole Canadian population has been 'mefloquined.' The government did shit for us on that file and they're going to do the same thing with this one. The stuff was shit, but we were 'coerced' into taking it and now have to fight the government in court for the results/ side effects of that forced medication. Covid vax is no different.


----------



## Halifax Tar

kev994 said:


> There’s actually quite a bit of research proving your hypothesis, it’s a great idea. Effect of reducing the posted speed limit to 30 km per hour on pedestrian motor vehicle collisions in Toronto, Canada - a quasi experimental, pre-post study - BMC Public Health



Speed limits mean nothing when we let vehicles be produced and sold and that go ridiculous amounts faster than any posted speed limit on the continent.


----------



## MJP

Quirky said:


> Fire them and find people who are willing to work. This isn't the military.


It is easier to fire military members than civilians.  A CO can send a file to DMCA and a decision is made. I have seen civilian files for people that would be fired 100 times over at any non-public job require beyond belief levels of approval and briefing before being approved.  This is DND specific so unknown if other depts have similar issues, but it is not pretty.


----------



## Remius

MJP said:


> It is easier to fire military members than civilians.  A CO can send a file to DMCA and a decision is made. I have seen civilian files for people that would be fired 100 times over at any non-public job require beyond belief levels of approval and briefing before being approved.  This is DND specific so unknown if other depts have similar issues, but it is not pretty.


It takes a lot to fire someone in the PS…


----------



## Halifax Tar

MJP said:


> It is easier to fire military members than civilians.  A CO can send a file to DMCA and a decision is made. I have seen civilian files for people that would be fired 100 times over at any non-public job require beyond belief levels of approval and briefing before being approved.  This is DND specific so unknown if other depts have similar issues, but it is not pretty.



In 22 or 23 years of working in a trade that has a heavy civilian compliment I have seen exactly 1 civilian fired.  And he wasn't even an STS.  He was a mechanic who had to come work with us as he had enough DUIs that he lost his license.  

Kept coming to work dunk.  Eventually it caught up to him, but it took years.  Somewhere between 3 - 5 I think. 

We had CIV HR involved, everything documented.  The union fought until the end.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vaccine-injury-support-program-covid-19-pfizer-vaccine-paralysis-1.6496761
> 
> 
> 
> A year later, still waiting for support for our overlords!



I person assessed every 2 weeks. Good news is in 28 years and 6 months everyone will be through the assessment process.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Halifax Tar said:


> We had CIV HR involved, everything documented.  The union fought until the end.


When you pay for a lawyer isn't that what you expect him/her to do??  Think of the Union as just a lawyer, and if things took that long your 'lawyer' [management] sucked huge at their jobs and just kept getting bitch slapped by smarter folk.

Unions don't 'save' jobs, they just ensure people rights are adhered too, follow the proper steps and all the Union can do is negotiate a bit of a parachute.   [Union steward for over 30 years]


----------



## kev994

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> When you pay for a lawyer isn't that what you expect him/her to do??  Think of the Union as just a lawyer, and if things took that long your 'lawyer' [management] sucked huge at their jobs cared less than their competitor and just kept getting bitch slapped by smarter folk. people who do this as their primary job.


FTFY


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> When you pay for a lawyer isn't that what you expect him/her to do??  Think of the Union as just a lawyer, and if things took that long your 'lawyer' [management] sucked huge at their jobs and just kept getting bitch slapped by smarter folk.
> 
> Unions don't 'save' jobs, they just ensure people rights are adhered too, follow the proper steps and all the Union can do is negotiate a bit of a parachute.   [Union steward for over 30 years]



Fair enough.  From the other side of the bridge it looked a lot like the union protecting a liability.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

kev994 said:


> FTFY


Actually you have it totally ass backwards,.......you gotta' get pretty high up in the Union chain before you get paid to do it.  In that case folks who's job it is to management got bitch slapped by VOLUNTEERS.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Halifax Tar said:


> Fair enough.  From the other side of the bridge it looked a lot like the union protecting a liability.


Oh I know, have gone to several meetings holding my nose, and I know of at least one woman who resigned as a Steward rather then rep another woman who went the other way when staff were attacked on a range.


----------



## AmmoTech90

Halifax Tar said:


> We had CIV HR involved, everything documented.  The union fought until the end.


On the flip side I had a civilian dismissal case where the union was supporting dismissal.

 HR fought it at every step.


----------



## brihard

Unions have a legal duty of fair representation. Everyone should get backed to the extent of ensuring proper due process. Even the shitbirds. If someone is actually terrible, the documentation should easily exist to see them terminated. It just takes time and proper process.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

AmmoTech90 said:


> On the flip side I had a civilian dismissal case where the union was supporting dismissal.
> 
> HR fought it at every step.


Thats awesome....


----------



## AmmoTech90

One of the incidents


Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Thats awesome....


One  (one!) of the assault incidents involved the shop steward...


----------



## Blackadder1916

A new study about the neurological effects of Covid was published in The Lancet.

The Coles Notes version.








						COVID increases risks of brain fog and dementia 2 years on from infection, study suggests
					

Anxiety and depression are also more common after COVID but tend to subside after a couple month, study finds.




					www.axios.com
				





> People who have had COVID-19 face increased risks of neurological and psychiatric conditions like brain fog, psychosis, seizures and dementia up to two years after infection.



The full Lancet article.

Neurological and psychiatric risk trajectories after SARS-CoV-2 infection: an analysis of 2-year retrospective cohort studies including 1 284 437 patients


> Findings​We identified 1 487 712 patients with a recorded diagnosis of COVID-19 during the study period, of whom 1 284 437 (185 748 children, 856 588 adults, and 242 101 older adults; overall mean age 42·5 years [SD 21·9]; 741 806 [57·8%] were female and 542 192 [42·2%] were male) were adequately matched with an equal number of patients with another respiratory infection. The risk trajectories of outcomes after SARS-CoV-2 infection in the whole cohort differed substantially. While most outcomes had HRs significantly greater than 1 after 6 months (with the exception of encephalitis; Guillain-Barré syndrome; nerve, nerve root, and plexus disorder; and parkinsonism), their risk horizons and time to equal incidence varied greatly. Risks of the common psychiatric disorders returned to baseline after 1–2 months (mood disorders at 43 days, anxiety disorders at 58 days) and subsequently reached an equal overall incidence to the matched comparison group (mood disorders at 457 days, anxiety disorders at 417 days). By contrast, risks of cognitive deficit (known as brain fog), dementia, psychotic disorders, and epilepsy or seizures were still increased at the end of the 2-year follow-up period. Post-COVID-19 risk trajectories differed in children compared with adults: in the 6 months after SARS-CoV-2 infection, children were not at an increased risk of mood (HR 1·02 [95% CI 0·94–1·10) or anxiety (1·00 [0·94–1·06]) disorders, but did have an increased risk of cognitive deficit, insomnia, intracranial haemorrhage, ischaemic stroke, nerve, nerve root, and plexus disorders, psychotic disorders, and epilepsy or seizures (HRs ranging from 1·20 [1·09–1·33] to 2·16 [1·46–3·19]). Unlike adults, cognitive deficit in children had a finite risk horizon (75 days) and a finite time to equal incidence (491 days). A sizeable proportion of older adults who received a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis, in either cohort, subsequently died, especially those diagnosed with dementia or epilepsy or seizures. Risk profiles were similar just before versus just after the emergence of the alpha variant (n=47 675 in each cohort). Just after (_vs_ just before) the emergence of the delta variant (n=44 835 in each cohort), increased risks of ischaemic stroke, epilepsy or seizures, cognitive deficit, insomnia, and anxiety disorders were observed, compounded by an increased death rate. With omicron (n=39 845 in each cohort), there was a lower death rate than just before emergence of the variant, but the risks of neurological and psychiatric outcomes remained similar.
> Interpretation​This analysis of 2-year retrospective cohort studies of individuals diagnosed with COVID-19 showed that the increased incidence of mood and anxiety disorders was transient, with no overall excess of these diagnoses compared with other respiratory infections. In contrast, the increased risk of psychotic disorder, cognitive deficit, dementia, and epilepsy or seizures persisted throughout. The differing trajectories suggest a different pathogenesis for these outcomes. Children have a more benign overall profile of psychiatric risk than do adults and older adults, but their sustained higher risk of some diagnoses is of concern. The fact that neurological and psychiatric outcomes were similar during the delta and omicron waves indicates that the burden on the health-care system might continue even with variants that are less severe in other respects. Our findings are relevant to understanding individual-level and population-level risks of neurological and psychiatric disorders after SARS-CoV-2 infection and can help inform our responses to them.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh, what a surprise (not)...

Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and ‘massive global failure at multiple levels,’ Lancet commission says​

The death toll from Covid-19 is “both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels,” the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.

“Too many governments have failed to adhere to basic norms of institutional rationality and transparency, too many people – often influenced by misinformation – have disrespected and protested against basic public health precautions, and the world’s major powers have failed to collaborate to control the pandemic,” the commissioners wrote.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/14/health/pandemic-end-in-sight-who/index.html
The World Health Organization says there have been more than 6.4 million Covid-19 deaths reported as of Sunday, but some experts say the actual toll most likely dwarfs the reported number.

The Lancet Commission report is addressed to UN member states, UN agencies and others, including the G20 and G7.









						Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and 'massive global failure at multiple levels,' Lancet commission says | CNN
					

The death toll from Covid-19 is "both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels," the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Halifax Tar said:


> Fair enough.  From the other side of the bridge it looked a lot like the union protecting a liability.


The unions are legally required to represent all members equally. Even when the Union Reps think the person is a useless scumbag. My sister was both a Labour Lawyer and Adjudicator in BC. She had to hear a couple of cases where management set up fake unions that the workers had to pay into and then worked against the workers. It was these types of shady practices that led to many of the rules that Unions face. She also heard a lot of cases where Unions mistreated their paid staff, seems some did not like to apply the same rules to themselves.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh, what a surprise (not)...
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and ‘massive global failure at multiple levels,’ Lancet commission says​
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is “both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels,” the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> “Too many governments have failed to adhere to basic norms of institutional rationality and transparency, too many people – often influenced by misinformation – have disrespected and protested against basic public health precautions, and the world’s major powers have failed to collaborate to control the pandemic,” the commissioners wrote.
> The end of the pandemic is in sight, WHO director-general says, 'so let's seize this opportunity'
> The World Health Organization says there have been more than 6.4 million Covid-19 deaths reported as of Sunday, but some experts say the actual toll most likely dwarfs the reported number.
> 
> The Lancet Commission report is addressed to UN member states, UN agencies and others, including the G20 and G7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and 'massive global failure at multiple levels,' Lancet commission says | CNN
> 
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is "both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels," the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


So to give an executive summary:  we all failed 😄


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So to give an executive summary:  we all failed 😄


We did.....Mother Nature wanted a whole lot more of us to die.   She'll come up with a super virus soon....


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh, what a surprise (not)...
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and ‘massive global failure at multiple levels,’ Lancet commission says​
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is “both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels,” the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> “Too many governments have failed to adhere to basic norms of institutional rationality and transparency, too many people – often influenced by misinformation – have disrespected and protested against basic public health precautions, and the world’s major powers have failed to collaborate to control the pandemic,” the commissioners wrote.
> The end of the pandemic is in sight, WHO director-general says, 'so let's seize this opportunity'
> The World Health Organization says there have been more than 6.4 million Covid-19 deaths reported as of Sunday, but some experts say the actual toll most likely dwarfs the reported number.
> 
> The Lancet Commission report is addressed to UN member states, UN agencies and others, including the G20 and G7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and 'massive global failure at multiple levels,' Lancet commission says | CNN
> 
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is "both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels," the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com


Good study…


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in Scotland:

Life Expectancy in Scotland, 2018-2020​

In Scotland in 2018-2020, life expectancy at birth was 76.8 years for males and 81.0 years for females. This is a decrease of around 17.6 weeks (0.3 years) for males and 6.1 weeks (0.1 years) for females since last year’s estimates and represents the biggest annual decrease since the series began.
This report describes period life expectancy. This is not a prediction of how long someone will live, but is an indicator which summarises the health of the population at a point in time.
Life expectancy in Scotland has increased since the early 1980s but then remained virtually unchanged between 2012-2014 and 2017-2019. In the most recent year it has now dropped below the 2012-2014 figure.
COVID-19 deaths accounted for the vast majority of the drop in life expectancy for both males and females.  Drug-related deaths also had a negative impact on life expectancy for males.
65 year old males in 2018-2020 could expect to live another 17.5 years whilst 65 year old females had a further 19.8 years of life expectancy.
Scotland has the lowest life expectancy at birth of all UK countries. Average life expectancy in the UK was 79.0 years for males and 82.9 years for females. Over the latest year life expectancy has fallen in all UK countries.
Female life expectancy at birth was highest in East Renfrewshire (84.0 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (78.3 years).
Male life expectancy at birth was highest in Shetland Islands (80.6 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (73.1 years)
The majority of Scotland’s council areas have experienced a slow-down or a stall in life expectancy growth since 2012-2014 and many areas now have decreasing life expectancy with Inverclyde, Dundee City and South Ayrshire experiencing some of the biggest decrease.
The gap in life expectancy between the most and least deprived areas was 13.5 years for males and 10.2 years for females. This gap has become wider over the past few years growing by 1.3 years for males and 1.6 years for females since 2013-2015.






						Life Expectancy in Scotland, 2018-2020 | National Records of Scotland
					

National Records of Scotland




					www.nrscotland.gov.uk


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh, what a surprise (not)...
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and ‘massive global failure at multiple levels,’ Lancet commission says​
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is “both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels,” the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> “Too many governments have failed to adhere to basic norms of institutional rationality and transparency, too many people – often influenced by misinformation – have disrespected and protested against basic public health precautions, and the world’s major powers have failed to collaborate to control the pandemic,” the commissioners wrote.
> The end of the pandemic is in sight, WHO director-general says, 'so let's seize this opportunity'
> The World Health Organization says there have been more than 6.4 million Covid-19 deaths reported as of Sunday, but some experts say the actual toll most likely dwarfs the reported number.
> 
> The Lancet Commission report is addressed to UN member states, UN agencies and others, including the G20 and G7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 death toll is a tragedy and 'massive global failure at multiple levels,' Lancet commission says | CNN
> 
> 
> The death toll from Covid-19 is "both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels," the Lancet Covid-19 Commission said in a report Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnn.com



Meanwhile....









						Losing 25,000 to Hunger Every Day | United Nations
					

During the past two decades, population growth, improvement in incomes and diversification of diets have steadily increased the demand for food. Prior to 2000, food prices were in decline, largely through record harvests. At the same time, however, public and private investment in agriculture...




					www.un.org
				




25,000 a DAY.


----------



## RangerRay

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in Scotland:
> 
> Life Expectancy in Scotland, 2018-2020​
> 
> In Scotland in 2018-2020, life expectancy at birth was 76.8 years for males and 81.0 years for females. This is a decrease of around 17.6 weeks (0.3 years) for males and 6.1 weeks (0.1 years) for females since last year’s estimates and represents the biggest annual decrease since the series began.
> This report describes period life expectancy. This is not a prediction of how long someone will live, but is an indicator which summarises the health of the population at a point in time.
> Life expectancy in Scotland has increased since the early 1980s but then remained virtually unchanged between 2012-2014 and 2017-2019. In the most recent year it has now dropped below the 2012-2014 figure.
> COVID-19 deaths accounted for the vast majority of the drop in life expectancy for both males and females.  Drug-related deaths also had a negative impact on life expectancy for males.
> 65 year old males in 2018-2020 could expect to live another 17.5 years whilst 65 year old females had a further 19.8 years of life expectancy.
> Scotland has the lowest life expectancy at birth of all UK countries. Average life expectancy in the UK was 79.0 years for males and 82.9 years for females. Over the latest year life expectancy has fallen in all UK countries.
> Female life expectancy at birth was highest in East Renfrewshire (84.0 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (78.3 years).
> Male life expectancy at birth was highest in Shetland Islands (80.6 years) and lowest in Glasgow City (73.1 years)
> The majority of Scotland’s council areas have experienced a slow-down or a stall in life expectancy growth since 2012-2014 and many areas now have decreasing life expectancy with Inverclyde, Dundee City and South Ayrshire experiencing some of the biggest decrease.
> The gap in life expectancy between the most and least deprived areas was 13.5 years for males and 10.2 years for females. This gap has become wider over the past few years growing by 1.3 years for males and 1.6 years for females since 2013-2015.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life Expectancy in Scotland, 2018-2020 | National Records of Scotland
> 
> 
> National Records of Scotland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nrscotland.gov.uk


I’m sure eating deep-fried Mars Bars have nothing to do with this…


----------



## daftandbarmy

RangerRay said:


> I’m sure eating deep-fried Mars Bars have nothing to do with this…



And then there's the 'Glasgow Effect':

Glaswegians have a 30% higher risk of dying before they are 65 (considered a premature death) than people in comparable de-industrialised cities such as Liverpool and Manchester. They die from the big killers: cancer, heart disease and strokes, as well as the “despair diseases” of drugs, alcohol and suicide.









						The Glasgow effect: new study reveals causes of city's high mortality rates
					

Research based on newly released 1970s policy documents suggests Glaswegians’ higher risk of premature death was caused by ‘skimming the cream’ – rehousing skilled workers in new towns, and leaving the poorest behind




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

Survey says... ouch

Two Decades of Progress, Nearly Gone: National Math, Reading Scores Hit Historic Lows

The pandemic has smacked American students back to the last century in math and reading achievement, according to the tests known as the Nation’s Report Card.

Results for students who took the test in spring 2022—the first main National Assessment of Educational Progress administration for these grades since the pandemic began—show the biggest drop in math performance in 4th and 8th grades since the testing program began in 1990. In reading, 4th and 8th graders likewise are performing on par with students in the 1990s, and about a third of students in both grades can’t read at even the “basic” achievement level—the lowest level on the test.

Academic declines on NAEP were sweeping, spanning low-income and wealthier students, boys and girls, and most racial or ethnic groups in both subjects and grades.

That made for some achievement gaps changing in unusual ways. For example, from 2019 to 2022, reading performance fell significantly for white 8th graders, but not their Asian, Black, Hispanic, and Native American classmates, leading to smaller racial differences in performance. In 4th grade, Black, Hispanic, white, and Native American students’ average reading scores fell in 2022, while Asian students’ average scores improved, widening the white-Asian performance gap from 7 points in 2019 to 12 points in 2022.

“This is not just nerdy education policy stuff. This is really about the future of young people. The world we’re moving towards is one that requires significantly higher skills to be successful, to live lives of purpose and meaning,” said Jeb Bush, former Florida governor and founder of the education advocacy groups ExcelinEd and Chiefs for Change, in a briefing before the NAEP results were released. “If we allow these learning gaps to grow, and if we allow for the decline in learning to just stand pat ... a lot of dreams are gonna be shattered over the long haul.”


Two Decades of Progress, Nearly Gone: National Math, Reading Scores Hit Historic Lows.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart




----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> And then there's the 'Glasgow Effect':
> 
> Glaswegians have a 30% higher risk of dying before they are 65 (considered a premature death) than people in comparable de-industrialised cities such as Liverpool and Manchester. They die from the big killers: cancer, heart disease and strokes, as well as the “despair diseases” of drugs, alcohol and suicide.



And obesity.

I read that in Scotalnd - probably other places as well - the number of obese patients requiring bariatric ambulances - just to get out of their homes for routine non-emergency medical appointments, they should be able to get to on their own - has nearly doubled over the past five years.



> The figures are the latest indication of the scale of Scotland’s obesity crisis after reports earlier this month revealed that tens of thousands of youngsters starting primary school in recent years were overweight.


----------



## FSTO

I finally caught the vid last week. 2 to 3 days of a lot of snot and sore throat. Very tired and lack of focus. Tested positive for about 6 days but felt okay after 3.

I'll eventually will go get the booster.


----------



## lenaitch

FSTO said:


> Very tired and lack of focus


Describes me on a good day!  A friend just got over his 2nd bout.  First one was in June days after his latest vaccine (apparently they take a number of days to kick in).  He described it as the sickest he had been in his life and lastest about a week..  He described round two as mild cold-like for a couple of days.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, well, well....



COVID 'most likely' leaked from lab, explosive Senate report concludes, as lawmakers say China 'no longer deserves benefit of doubt' over animal transmission theory​
*Policymakers said 'substantial' evidence pointing to lab accident has emerged*
*But evidence for a natural spillover 'is missing' even after three years of probes *
*Unwillingness to cooperate means China 'should no longer get benefit of doubt' *
*Findings come in an interim report pubished by the Senate Committee on Health*
*Origins of Covid still shrouded in mystery with no concrete evidence either way*
*But China has shut down independent probes into lab and silenced scientists*









						Covid 'most likely' leaked from lab, explosive Senate says
					

Policymakers said 'substantial' evidence pointing to a lab leak in China has emerged while evidence for a natural spillover 'is missing'.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## PMedMoe

I'm not sure I'd take an article from the Daily Mail very seriously.

Is the Daily Mail Reliable?

"The Daily Mail scored an average Factual Grade of 39.5%, the second-lowest score in our entire dataset. A range of factors contribute to this low score. In terms of cited evidence and sourcing, articles from the Daily Mail tend to link to other Daily Mail content or to low-quality external sources. Headlines and text are also generally opinionated or sensationalized. Finally, author expertise is low, likely attributable to the wide range of new and unrecognized authors, who fail to demonstrate relevant topical expertise."


----------



## daftandbarmy

PMedMoe said:


> I'm not sure I'd take an article from the Daily Mail very seriously.
> 
> Is the Daily Mail Reliable?
> 
> "The Daily Mail scored an average Factual Grade of 39.5%, the second-lowest score in our entire dataset. A range of factors contribute to this low score. In terms of cited evidence and sourcing, articles from the Daily Mail tend to link to other Daily Mail content or to low-quality external sources. Headlines and text are also generally opinionated or sensationalized. Finally, author expertise is low, likely attributable to the wide range of new and unrecognized authors, who fail to demonstrate relevant topical expertise."



Well, they're referring to this report so....

An Analysis of the Origins of the COVID-19 Pandemic Interim Report
Senate Committee on Health Education, Labor and Pensions Minority Oversight Staff October 2022

Conclusion

As noted by the WHO Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens, the COVID19 Lancet Commission, and the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence 90-Day Assessment on the COVID-19 Origins, more information is needed to arrive at a more precise, if not a definitive, understanding of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 and how the COVID-19 pandemic began.225 Governments, leaders, public health officials, and scientists involved in addressing the COVID-19 pandemic and working to prevent future pandemics, must commit to greater transparency, engagement, and responsibility in their efforts. Based on the analysis of the publicly available information, it appears reasonable to conclude that the COVID-19 pandemic was, more likely than not, the result of a research-related incident. New information, made publicly available and independently verifiable, could change this assessment. However, the hypothesis of a natural zoonotic origin no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt, or the presumption of accuracy



			https://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/report_an_analysis_of_the_origins_of_covid-19_102722.pdf


----------



## PMedMoe

I would have posted that and not some tabloid link.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Or you could read the article to learn what evidence it uses.


----------



## PMedMoe

Brad Sallows said:


> Or you could read the article to learn what evidence it uses.


I did skim through it. It was difficult to read with all the noise on the page. 

And pretty much every link I clicked was to yet _another_ Daily Mail article. 

Still, there's not enough proof one way or the other. Just that it was "likely".


----------



## Blackadder1916

PMedMoe said:


> I'm not sure I'd take an article from the Daily Mail very seriously.
> 
> Is the Daily Mail Reliable?
> 
> "The Daily Mail scored an average Factual Grade of 39.5%, the second-lowest score in our entire dataset. A range of factors contribute to this low score. In terms of cited evidence and sourcing, articles from the Daily Mail tend to link to other Daily Mail content or to low-quality external sources. Headlines and text are also generally opinionated or sensationalized. Finally, author expertise is low, likely attributable to the wide range of new and unrecognized authors, who fail to demonstrate relevant topical expertise."



The (un)reliability of the Daily Mail taken as a given, their article is not discussing "their" opinion, but is an analysis (such as it is) of an interim report from the minority (i.e. GOP) staff of a US Senate committee.  I haven't yet had the opportunity to give the report a proper read, but my initial take is there is a lot of politics to it.

This article from a different outlet (that is probably better written) may be more to your liking.  (the highlighting is mine)









						Covid ‘Lab Leak’ Theory Gets Boost From Senate Republican Report
					

Senate Republicans who investigated the origin of the virus that caused Covid-19 lay out how it could have started from a laboratory leak, although they underscore the findings lack indisputable evidence.




					news.bloomberglaw.com
				





> Covid ‘Lab Leak’ Theory Gets Boost From Senate Republican Report​Oct. 27, 2022, 11:01 AM
> 
> GOP senator says report should guide further research
> Most scientists suspect the virus originated in animals
> Senate Republicans who investigated the origin of the virus that caused Covid-19 lay out how it could have started from a laboratory leak, although they underscore the findings lack indisputable evidence.
> 
> The report Republicans on the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee released Thursday is the latest GOP attempt to pressure the Biden administration and congressional Democrats to consider more seriously the theory that Covid started in a lab.
> 
> Questions about the origins of Covid-19 have become an increasingly partisan issue. House Energy and Commerce Republicans have pressed the National Institutes of Health on the lab leak theory.
> 
> However, most scientists support the conclusion in a Science Magazine paper published in August that the virus jumped from animal to human, likely in the crowded wet markets in Wuhan, China.
> 
> “I worry, because the crowd that is pushing this narrative is not motivated by scientific fact,” Gigi Gronvall, an immunologist and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security said about the lab leak theory before seeing the report. She said her work concluded the science behind an animal trade origin is “very solid.”
> 
> The Senate HELP report summarizes publicly available, open-source information related to the potential origin of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. Sen. Richard Burr (R-N.C.), the panel’s ranking member, said he hopes the report will guide the World Health Organization and other international institutions and researchers.
> 
> “With COVID-19 still in our midst, it is critical that we continue international efforts to uncover additional information regarding the origins of this deadly virus,” Burr said.
> 
> Senate HELP Chair Patty Murray said Thursday she’s still committed to working with Burr on an investigation into the origins of Covid, although the report was released only by Burr’s staff.
> 
> Murray said “undertaking a full examination of how COVID-19 first emerged” is part of the bipartisan pandemic preparedness legislation (S. 3799) the HELP Committee approved in March.
> 
> But the bill called for an independent task force to investigate the origins of Covid-19. “It is absolutely critical we learn the lessons from this pandemic so that we never find ourselves in a similar situation again,” Murray said. “I remain committed to passing the PREVENT Pandemics Act, which advanced out of Committee with overwhelming bipartisan support.”


----------



## TacticalTea

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, they're referring to this report so....
> 
> An Analysis of the Origins of the COVID-19 Pandemic Interim Report
> Senate Committee on Health Education, Labor and Pensions Minority Oversight Staff October 2022
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> As noted by the WHO Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens, the COVID19 Lancet Commission, and the U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence 90-Day Assessment on the COVID-19 Origins, more information is needed to arrive at a more precise, if not a definitive, understanding of the origins of SARS-CoV-2 and how the COVID-19 pandemic began.225 Governments, leaders, public health officials, and scientists involved in addressing the COVID-19 pandemic and working to prevent future pandemics, must commit to greater transparency, engagement, and responsibility in their efforts. Based on the analysis of the publicly available information, it appears reasonable to conclude that the COVID-19 pandemic was, more likely than not, the result of a research-related incident. New information, made publicly available and independently verifiable, could change this assessment. However, the hypothesis of a natural zoonotic origin no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt, or the presumption of accuracy
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/report_an_analysis_of_the_origins_of_covid-19_102722.pdf


Attempt at listing reversals:

1. Masks would not protect individuals, especially amongst groups who don't know how to use and change them properly -> everyone must wear a mask.
2. Herd immunity would end the pandemic at 65% coverage -> 75% -> 80% -> 85% -> 90% -> 95% -> herd immunity doesn't exist. (Exaggeration, I know, but you get the point)
3. Curfews would have no effect -> be home by 10, you savages
4. The lab leak theory is conspiratorial -> maybe we should investigate China, Dany kind of forgot about the Iron fleet we kind of forgot they're untrustworthy. (whether that particular report is credible or not - I have very strong reservations about it - the general mediatic and political stance has shifted considerably on this)
5. You need to get 3 shots to protect society and the immunocompromised -> vaccines were never shown to prevent transmission
6. Closing the border is racist -> Trump should have closed the border much earlier.

Anything else? 

Mind you, I still support the decisions that were made wrt mandating masks and vaccines in the military (with some exceptions where the implementation became absurd), and kicking out those who disobeyed. Military and civil society are not the same.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Any bets that some Disney fanatic engineered all this just to get exclusive access ....


Shanghai Disney shuts over Covid, visitors unable to leave


Shanghai’s Disney Resort abruptly suspended operations on Monday to comply with Covid-19 prevention measures.

All visitors at the time of the announcement were directed to stay in the park until they return a negative test for the virus.

The resort said at 11:39 a.m. local time it would immediately shut the main theme park and surrounding areas including its shopping street until further notice to comply with virus curbs.

Shanghai Disney shuts over Covid, visitors unable to leave


----------



## Brad Sallows

The entire COVID epidemic, or just the current Shanghai outbreak?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> The entire COVID epidemic, or just the current Shanghai outbreak?



If you've met real Disney fanatics, you wouldn't have to ask that question


----------



## daftandbarmy

Canada's economy is really sucking wind post-Pandemic...


Incomplete, superficial and unbalanced: Assessing Canada’s “economic recovery” since the pandemic​
The Trudeau government’s 2022 Fall Economic Statement triumphantly claims on page 6 that “Canada’s economic recovery from the pandemic recession has been strong.” Elsewhere, on page 27, it offers a further boast: “There is no country better placed than Canada to weather the coming global economic slowdown and thrive in the years ahead.”

A closer look at the data shows these claims are shaky at best (Williams, 2022a). Canada’s economic recovery has been incomplete, superficial and unbalanced. And it may be about to come unstuck as a global recession unfolds in 2023. The recession will be unlike the recessions of 2000, 2008 and 2020 and more like the inflation-fighting recessions of the early 1980s and early 1990s.

Canada is one of the only advanced countries in the world not to have recovered its pre-pandemic level of GDP per person in 2021 (*Figure 2*). In contrast, the U.S., the G7 average, the OECD average and Australia all fully recovered and surpassed their pre-pandemic level of real GDP per person in 2021. With a global recession looming in 2023, Canada’s GDP per person is likely to cease its partial recovery and start to fall again (discussed below).









						Incomplete, superficial and unbalanced: Assessing Canada’s “economic…
					

#CDNecon recovery during 2021-22 has been incomplete, superficial and unbalanced. Policymakers need to get serious about addressing Canada’s long-ignored structural challenges. Via @BizCouncilBC




					bcbc.com


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> Canada's economy is really sucking wind post-Pandemic...
> 
> 
> Incomplete, superficial and unbalanced: Assessing Canada’s “economic recovery” since the pandemic​
> The Trudeau government’s 2022 Fall Economic Statement triumphantly claims on page 6 that “Canada’s economic recovery from the pandemic recession has been strong.” Elsewhere, on page 27, it offers a further boast: “There is no country better placed than Canada to weather the coming global economic slowdown and thrive in the years ahead.”
> 
> A closer look at the data shows these claims are shaky at best (Williams, 2022a). Canada’s economic recovery has been incomplete, superficial and unbalanced. And it may be about to come unstuck as a global recession unfolds in 2023. The recession will be unlike the recessions of 2000, 2008 and 2020 and more like the inflation-fighting recessions of the early 1980s and early 1990s.
> 
> Canada is one of the only advanced countries in the world not to have recovered its pre-pandemic level of GDP per person in 2021 (*Figure 2*). In contrast, the U.S., the G7 average, the OECD average and Australia all fully recovered and surpassed their pre-pandemic level of real GDP per person in 2021. With a global recession looming in 2023, Canada’s GDP per person is likely to cease its partial recovery and start to fall again (discussed below).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incomplete, superficial and unbalanced: Assessing Canada’s “economic…
> 
> 
> #CDNecon recovery during 2021-22 has been incomplete, superficial and unbalanced. Policymakers need to get serious about addressing Canada’s long-ignored structural challenges. Via @BizCouncilBC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bcbc.com


We’ll all feel much better in a warm fuzzy Butts&Guilbault kind of way, when we come out of the recession in 2026, 2-1/2 years after most other countries in the world…


----------



## Fishbone Jones

You will own nothing and you will be happy.
Maybe when Singh gets his pension next year, he'll help bring his partner down and we can get back to rebuilding our country and coffers. I'd like to see a massive audit. There's million of dollars missing that they can't  account for.
I only hope trudeau sticks around and we can jail him.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Fishbone Jones said:


> You will own nothing and you will be happy.



Funny you mention that....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592226577995235330


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> Funny you mention that....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592226577995235330


Lol, no. That’s not a Mao Jacket, and it’s a tradition at the ASEAN conferences for the host nation to provide traditional dress or prt of the events, which other leaders conventionally west as a courtesy. Sorry to ‘go being all facty and shit’ again, but…









						Biden did not wear ‘Mao’ outfit to meeting with Xi
					

CLAIM: Video shows President Joe Biden wearing an outfit in the style of Communist authoritarian leader Mao Zedong to a diplomatic meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping on Monday. AP’S ASSESSMENT: False.




					apnews.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Funny you mention that....
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592226577995235330



What's the big deal about that snippet of a video ?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Halifax Tar said:


> What's the big deal about that snippet of a video ?



Something like this, I think


----------



## RangerRay

The real Mao suit has four pockets, a more closed collar and does not appear to be made of silk. It actually has its origins with Dr. Sun Yat-sen and the Chinese Republican movement. 









						Mao suit - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




I am guessing Biden and Trudeau are wearing traditional Cambodian garb for the group photo. 

When they meet in Canada, everyone will probably be dressed in Mac jackets (i.e. Vancouver Island tuxedo).


----------



## Kat Stevens

RangerRay said:


> The real Mao suit has four pockets, a more closed collar and does not appear to be made of silk. It actually has its origins with Dr. Sun Yat-sen and the Chinese Republican movement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mao suit - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am guessing Biden and Trudeau are wearing traditional Cambodian garb for the group photo.
> 
> When they meet in Canada, everyone will probably be dressed in Mac jackets (i.e. Vancouver Island tuxedo).


$1000 limited edition Hudson's Bay coat would be my guess.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Kat Stevens said:


> $1000 limited edition Hudson's Bay coat would be my guess.



That would be awesome. It would literally be the 'Cloak of Colonialism'


----------



## dapaterson

Save money - have the photoshoot at Wrecked Beach and wear the traditional attire.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:


> Save money - have the photoshoot at Wreck*ed* Beach and wear the traditional attire.



While some have been known to be "wrecked" at Wreck Beach, the "ed" should, like trousers, be dropped.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm just going to leave this here. Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## Good2Golf

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm just going to leave this here. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> View attachment 75504



Vive gladio, peri gladio.


----------



## Lumber

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm just going to leave this here. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> View attachment 75504


...an MP died. There are literally an infinite number of conclusions you could draw. What are you baiting at?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm just going to leave this here. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> View attachment 75504


That for someone who bleats about mental health stigma you have no problem using it to further one of your agendas.....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I see nowhere where he died from MH problems. I assumed he died from covid vax. The same as so many other athletic males, in their prime have done due to vax complications. I found it ironic, with him pushing it on the country, that he should die that way. That's why it's posted in the Covid thread Bruce. Guess that one got by you on your way to centre me out.  I said draw your own conclusions. I made zero statement otherwise. You concluded suicide from the sounds of it. That's on you. That was not my take. However, like I said, I posted it, you decide on your own, don't blame me for your own thoughts.

But hey there Bruce. I'll apologize to your sense of superiority for calling me out and taking a stab at my problems to suit your narrative.. Maybe you can tell me what his problem was and how he died. I have found zilch so far. You're all knowing and omnipotent, especially about what goes on in my fucked up head, you should be able to divine the reason he died, right buddy? Maybe you should be my doctor because you seem to know better than my shrink what goes on up there. So eager to jump down my throat with your sanctimonious crap. I see you dragged your peanut gallery with you. Lumber? Another one that thinks he's qualified to diagnose people, on the internet.

If it turns out that it was suicide, you feel free to use your great god powers and delete it. Or leave it. I don't care because you were wrong about me once again.

A PM would have sufficed, but where would the fun be in that, for you and your posse? 

Perhaps you should learn Latin. I wasn't the only one that thought that way I did. However, you didn't challenge that post, did you? Just mine.

Oh btw, Merry Christmas.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Lumber said:


> ...an MP died. There are literally an infinite number of conclusions you could draw. What are you baiting at?


That was just weak. You have a fantastic imagination, you could have sussed out any number of reasons. I shouldn't have bothered looking at the _*show ignored content*_.


----------



## Remius

If we are making wild guesses, then I maybe some Convoy assassin bitter about the roll out.  Maybe the PMs personal sniper or someone else with an axe to grind.   After all they are very well funded from foreign money and they’ve shown they are capable of anything…crazy eh?

Or maybe look at the obit, and see where the family would like money donated.









						Remembering the life of Adam EXTON
					

Adam EXTON passed away . This is the full obituary where you can express condolences and share memories. Published in the Ottawa Citizen on 2022-12-17.




					ottawacitizen.remembering.ca


----------



## Lumber

Fishbone Jones said:


> That was just weak. You have a fantastic imagination, you could have sussed out any number of reasons. I shouldn't have bothered looking at the _*show ignored content*_.


Part of me feels like it's a badge of honour to be on your ignore list. Another part of me is sad that you would want to participate as a member of an online forum, but then run away and hide when people push back on your views/opinions. Do you really just want to yell at clouds all day without challenge?

Anyways, knowing you, OF COURSE the first conclusion I drew was "FJ thinks this guy died from a Covid shot". But, then I went and did the tinniest amount of digging, and there was literally nothing anywhere that seemed to provide even the barest of justification for even the craziest anti-vaxxer to draw the conclusion that he died from the vaccine, so I really was at a loss for what conclusion you were getting at. In fact, my digging revealed for more information that supports Bruce and Remius' statements. The man was suffering from mental health issues (which were probably made worse by being bullied about his job trying to save lives). 

And even if he HAD died from the covid vaccine, so what? 12.7 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered. In the US, they've administered 657 million doses, and have had 17,868 of deaths reported to have occurred soon after receiving the vaccine. Even if every one of those deaths could be attributed to the vaccine, that would be a death rate of 0.0027%, which is so low that if you're afraid of it, you'd better not get in your car today. However, what's more likely is that almost none of these deaths will be attributed to the vaccine. Canada has not been able to conclusively attribute any post-vaccine deaths to having had the vaccine as the underlying cause, and in late 2021, the UK had only 5 deaths where the vaccine was the underlying cause, and an additional 4 where it contributed to it.


----------



## McG

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm just going to leave this here. Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> View attachment 75504





Fishbone Jones said:


> That was just weak. You have a fantastic imagination, you could have sussed out any number of reasons. I shouldn't have bothered looking at the _*show ignored content*_.


The problem with debating people who have embraced post-truth is that they believe valid conclusions can be drawn from imagination.


----------



## Lumber

McG said:


> The problem with debating people who have embraced post-truth is that they believe valid conclusions can be drawn from imagination.


I just realized that FJ actually complimented me when he said I have an "amazing imagination". 😇


----------



## RangerRay

One should be careful getting their news from Gateway Pundit. They make CBC look like factual and unbiased reporting.


----------



## mariomike

RangerRay said:


> One should be careful getting their news from Gateway Pundit.



QUOTE

_*The Gateway Pundit*_ (*TGP*) is an American far-right fake news website. The website is known for publishing falsehoods, hoaxes, and conspiracy theories.

END QUOTE

Receipts here





						The Gateway Pundit - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## PMedMoe

Careful there mariomike. Some people here don't like it when you point out the bias of their source.


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> 12.7 billion doses of the vaccine have been administered. In the US, they've administered 657 million doses, and have had 17,868 of deaths reported to have occurred soon after receiving the vaccine. Even if every one of those deaths could be attributed to the vaccine, that would be a death rate of 0.0027%, which is so low that if you're afraid of it, you'd better not get in your car today. However, what's more likely is that almost none of these deaths will be attributed to the vaccine. Canada has not been able to conclusively attribute any post-vaccine deaths to having had the vaccine as the underlying cause, and in late 2021, the UK had only 5 deaths where the vaccine was the underlying cause, and an additional 4 where it contributed to it.


In the U.S. there has been about 657 million vaccine doses administered but only about 263 million people vaccinated (at least one dose). If you count potential deaths as a percent of people who've received a vaccine, rather than by number of total doses administered, that number more than doubles. Arguably it is still a rather small number but so are the deaths from COVID-19 reported amongst those under 40 years of age.

In the U.S., there have been a reported 1,076,549 deaths attributable to COVID19. Of that, only 27,247 have been under the age of 40. Under age 30, it is "only" 8081 deaths despite this group representing the lowest vaccination rate along with the highest prevalence of cases. That's 0.74% (under 30) of total COVID deaths in the U.S., including those that are severely immunocompromised. One could argue this is a rather small risk, and that people in their 20s should be more afraid of traffic (they also have much higher accident rates, particular amongst young men)... but of course, it is justifiable to curtail their Charter Rights (such as not being able to travel international or provincially, continue or take up employment for the government or in government regulated industries, etc.) in order to reduce their chance of being hospitalized from COVID19.

Smoking is estimated to cause around 480, 000 deaths per year in the U.S.. Given that the pandemic has been going on for almost 3 years, this means more people likely died from smoking than of COVID19 since spring 2020, statistically speaking... maybe we should deny medical services to smokers just as we did to unvaccinated Canadians.? What do you think the stats are for heavy drug users?... taking away their health cards would undoubtedly reduce ER wait times.



			https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6518642


----------



## QV

winds_13 said:


> In the U.S. there has been about 657 million vaccine doses administered but only about 263 million people vaccinated (atleast one dose). If you count potential deaths as a percent of people who've received a vaccine, rather than by number of total doses administered, that number more than doubles. Arguably it is still a rather small number but so are the deaths from COVID-19 reported amongts those under 40 years of age. In the U.S., there have been a reported 1,076,549 deaths attributable to COVID19. Of that, only 27,247 have been under the age of 40. Under age 30, it is "only" 8081 deaths despite this group representing the lowest vaccination rate along with the highest prevalence of cases. That's 0.0074% (under 30) of total COVID deaths in the U.S.. One could argue this is a rather small risk, and that people in their 20s should be more afraid of traffic (they also have much higher accident rates, particular amongst young men)... but of course, it is justifiable to curtail their Charter Rights (such as not being able to travel international or provincially, continue or take up employment for the government or in government regulated industries, etc.) in order to reduce their chance of being hospitalized from COVID19. Smoking is estimated to cause around 480, 000 deaths per year in the U.S.. Given that the pandemic has been going on for almost 3 years, this means more people likely died from smoking than of COVID19 since spring 2020, statistically speaking... maybe we should deny medical services to smokers just as we did to unvaccinated Canadians.? What do you think the stats are for heavy drug users?... taking away their health cards would undoubtedly reduce ER wait times.
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6518642










						List of supporting references used in vaccine harms debate speech | Andrew Bridgen MP - Member of Parliament for NW Leicestershire
					






					www.andrewbridgen.com
				












						Major concerns  | The Times of India
					

The MP has been vocal about his opinions about the COVID vaccines. In the past, he has warned against the vaccination of young children, saying that the jabs are still in their experimental stages.Along with his latest allegations, he highlighted research that showed a 25 percent increase in...




					timesofindia.indiatimes.com


----------



## winds_13

In Denmark, they are no longer recommending or offering booster doses to those under 50 (with exceptions for those who are specifically at risk)... is it because booster doses are too expensive for the Danes? ...Or maybe the Danish Health Authority gets all their information from _Fox News_ and _The Gateway Pundit_... just a bunch of QAnon conspiracy theorists making public health decisions?

What other reason could there be? ...it's not as if one could ever do a risk analysis and determine any recommendation other than promoting continuous vaccination, right? 









						Vaccination against covid-19
					

The Danish Health Authority expects that the number of covid-19 infections will increase during autumn and winter. Therefore, we recommend vaccination of people aged 50 years and over as well as selected risk groups. Read more about the autumn vaccination programme here.




					sst.dk


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> Smoking is estimated to cause around 480, 000 deaths per year in the U.S.. Given that the pandemic has been going on for almost 3 years, this means more people likely died from smoking than of COVID19 since spring 2020, statistically speaking... maybe we should deny medical services to smokers just as we did to unvaccinated Canadians.? What do you think the stats are for heavy drug users?... taking away their health cards would undoubtedly reduce ER wait times.


You're comparing apples to oranges. Smoking is a self-inflicted disease. People exercising their ability to smoke doesn't harm others, and where it did (second hand smoke), we've basically passed laws to ban it, and as I've said before, lets ban smoking altogether. COVID, as with any disease, is different from smoking in that you just going about your business can spread the disease to others. Your section 6 freedom of movement rights is infringing on my section 7 rights to life and security of person, so section 1 applies and limits your freedoms _temporarily_ in the face of a very real and very threatening pandemic. 

I don't understand your point about taking health cards away from drug users? 

Also, what does any of this have to do with whether or not deaths with the COVID vaccine as the underlying cause are statistically relevant?


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges. Smoking is a self-inflicted disease. People exercising their ability to smoke doesn't harm others, and where it did (second hand smoke), we've basically passed laws to ban it, and as I've said before, lets ban smoking altogether. COVID, as with any disease, is different from smoking in that you just going about your business can spread the disease to others. Your section 6 freedom of movement rights is infringing on my section 7 rights to life and security of person, so section 1 applies and limits your freedoms _temporarily_ in the face of a very real and very threatening pandemic.
> 
> I don't understand your point about taking health cards away from drug users?
> 
> Also, what does any of this have to do with whether or not deaths with the COVID vaccine as the underlying cause are statistically relevant?


Lumber, COVID19 vaccines are no longer being advertised as effective of preventing viral spread, the research doesn't strongly back it up. That's why messaging has shifted towards reducing an individual's own chance of being hospitalized. Insee this as similar to a smoker's increased risk of using up limited health care resources, except the vaccine hesitant may be trying to avoid vaccine related side effects. You only mentioned the risk of death, and not say prevalence of myocarditus in young males... this risk may help explain why young men are one of the least vaccinated population groups. 

Further, there are now reports that the unvaccinated are apparently at increased risk of getting into traffic accidents. Young men have always been over represented in causing traffic accidents... I wonder what percent of the unvaccinated are young men compared to the vaccinated population and if this may have an impact on the population level statistics. 









						Ontarians unvaccinated against COVID-19 may be more at risk of traffic crashes, study finds
					

Individuals not vaccinated against COVID-19 may have an increased risk of being involved in a traffic crash in Ontario, a new study has found.




					www.google.com
				




My point about taking health cards away from drug users was to illustrate the line of reasoning used against unvaccinated Canadians, who had been taken off of surgery lists (see the CBC article I posted). It was not argued that these people represented direct of spreading COVID19 to others... the judge decided that no one has a right to an organ transplant and that priority could be determined by the patients medical decisions, my point was to simply extend this line of reasoning.

The overall relevance of my post was in response to your use of statistics to dismiss risks posed by vaccination. Similar reasoning can be used to dismiss the risks posed by COVID19 to the young and reasonably healthy. Risk tolerances are inherently subjective, you argue that it is justifiable to curtail other people's rights in order to make you feel safer though. The Canadian federal travel bans (international and domestic) were apparently put in place without any specific recommendations from PHAC or other government health auhtorities.

In testimony, Dr. Eleni Galanis, director general of the Centre for Integrated Risk Assessment (CIRA) within PHAC, has even said that vaccine mandates were never recommended as a mitigation measure against viral spread.









						Travel ban was all political not 'scientific': Court documents - B.C. Rise News, Politics
					

Overview Background of reporting on the Covid-19 travel mandate court case The lead up to the mandate Rupa Subramanya – quick facts Transcript snippets from Eleni Galanis Transcript snippets from Jennifer Little Download the T-1991-91 Karl Harrison et al v Attorney General files Background of...




					www.bcrise.com
				




I'm not trying to minimize the severity of the pandemic, but apparently PHAC never suggested that vaccine mandates would reduce the spread of COVID19. Further, data has shown the currently available vaccines to have a low efficacy when it comes to reducing transmission of COVID19. Effectiveness against transmission was hypothesized last year but never proven.

Yes, everyone can spread this disease to others but the facts do not support the idea of increased risk of catching COVID19 from an unvaccinated contact. So what about the mandates was a reasonable curtailment of Charter rights?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Isn't it great we're still alive to argue about decisions made on the fly about, at the time, a totally unknown enemy, instead of wondering if it's possible to bury/burn all the bodies before pestilence sets in on those who are left??


----------



## winds_13

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Isn't it great we're still alive to argue about decisions made on the fly about, at the time, a totally unknown enemy, instead of wondering if it's possible to bury/burn all the bodies before pestilence sets in on those who are left??


Bruce, the decision to put in place vaccine mandates was made about a year and a half in to the pandemic. There was plenty of data about the disease and quite a bit about the vaccines, including worrying data about its inefficacy to prevent spread as well as waning immunity.

The decision to instill mandates was seemingly political in nature. During the last federal election, both the Liberals and Conservatives campaigned on putting in place a mandate for government workers... the main difference was that the Liberal Party specifically stated that they would not offer accomodation to those who remain unvaccinated (as well as deny them EI after involuntarily being placed on leave). Such mandates were then the first act following the election and put in to effect without parliamentary debate (and apparently, it seems, recommendations from health authorities). Arguably, the decison did not have to be made "on the fly" that far in to the pandemic.

Do you think we'd all be dead if it were not for the mandates? They were limited in their effectiveness in increasing vaccination rates (rather, they made many people more hesitant) and over half the country caught COVID19 in the ensuing months anyway.


----------



## Quirky

Lumber said:


> which is so low that if you're afraid of it, you'd better not get in your car today



Hmm where have I heard that before. 

Stay safe.


----------



## winds_13

Quirky said:


> Hmm where have I heard that before.
> 
> Stay safe.


Remember when people were dismissing the risk of blood clots following administration of the AstraZeneca vaccine? "You have a higher chance of blood clots from birth control" people said...then they stopped offering it people under 55 before restricting its use further due to the risk of adverse events.

What about the many women who avoid taking hormonal birth control because of its long list of potential side effects? Do people think that their concerns about adverse side effects were reassured by such statements?

Why would we compare the risk of getting in an accident to the risk of adverse events following vaccination... shouldn't we compare them to the risks posed by the disease along with the expected reduction of these risks that the vaccine offers?


----------



## Lumber

Quirky said:


> Hmm where have I heard that before.
> 
> Stay safe.


Charlottesville, maybe?


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> Why would we compare the risk of getting in an accident to the risk of adverse events following vaccination... shouldn't we compare them to the risks posed by the disease along with the expected reduction of these risks that the vaccine offers?


You can do both. But fine, the risk of any adverse reaction to the COVID vaccine pales in comparison to the benefit of improvement of outcomes.


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> You can do both. But fine, the risk of any adverse reaction to the COVID vaccine pales in comparison to the benefit of improvement of outcomes.


That is your opinion. I'd argue it depends on one's risk factors. For example, if one is over 60, then vaccination is almost certainly advisable. As I posted earlier, the Danish Health Authority does not agree with your expert assessment.


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> That is your opinion. I'd argue it depends on one's risk factors. For example, if one is over 60, then vaccination is almost certainly advisable. As I posted earlier, the Danish Health Authority does not agree with your expert assessment.


It's certainly NOT because they are afraid of the possible adverse effects, it's simply because they believe that those under 50 _no longer need_ the vaccine iot to avoid severe outcomes.  And it's not just because "people under 50 are generally healthier"; they clearly state that the vast majority of their population either has the vaccine or had covid, and is now generally immune to severe effects.


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> It's certainly NOT because they are afraid of the possible adverse effects, it's simply because they believe that those under 50 _no longer need_ the vaccine iot to avoid severe outcomes.  And it's not just because "people under 50 are generally healthier"; they clearly state that the vast majority of their population either has the vaccine or had covid, and is now generally immune to severe effects.


The vaccination rate on Canada is higher than that in Denmark and case counts over the last year similarly high, why is our recommendation for those under 50 to remain "up-to-date" with boosters then? I never said that they were "afraid", BTW. 

If the Danish Health Authority is "certainly" not concerned about potential adverse side effects, then why not recommend/offer boosters to all? ...wouldn't that be the conservative approach, given they warn about an increased case load going into the winter? Rather, they are not even offering boosters to most citizens under 50. I assume that vaccine cost is not much of a factor in Denmark.

The following study, conducted in Denmark, concluded that:

"Vaccination with mRNA-1273 was associated with a significantly increased risk of myocarditis or myopericarditis in the Danish population, primarily driven by an increased risk among individuals aged 12-39 years, while BNT162b2 vaccination was only associated with a significantly increased risk among women."









						SARS-CoV-2 vaccination and myocarditis or myopericarditis: population based cohort study - PubMed
					

Vaccination with mRNA-1273 was associated with a significantly increased risk of myocarditis or myopericarditis in the Danish population, primarily driven by an increased risk among individuals aged 12-39 years, while BNT162b2 vaccination was only associated with a significantly increased risk...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Of course, why would they care about such a study though?


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> The vaccination rate on Canada is higher than that in Denmark and case counts over the last year similarly high, why is our recommendation for those under 50 to remain "up-to-date" with boosters then? I never said that they were "afraid", BTW.
> 
> If the Danish Health Authority is "certainly" not concerned about potential adverse side effects, then why not recommend/offer boosters to all? ...wouldn't that be the conservative approach, given they warn about an increased case load going into the winter? Rather, they are not even offering boosters to most citizens under 50. I assume that vaccine cost is not much of a factor in Denmark.
> 
> The following study, conducted in Denmark, concluded that:
> 
> "Vaccination with mRNA-1273 was associated with a significantly increased risk of myocarditis or myopericarditis in the Danish population, primarily driven by an increased risk among individuals aged 12-39 years, while BNT162b2 vaccination was only associated with a significantly increased risk among women."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SARS-CoV-2 vaccination and myocarditis or myopericarditis: population based cohort study - PubMed
> 
> 
> Vaccination with mRNA-1273 was associated with a significantly increased risk of myocarditis or myopericarditis in the Danish population, primarily driven by an increased risk among individuals aged 12-39 years, while BNT162b2 vaccination was only associated with a significantly increased risk...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, why would they care about such a study though?


And THIS study indicates that there was an increase in 2-6 myocarditis events per _million _people vaccinated after the first dose and and additional 10 after the second dose, compared to an increase in 40 myocarditis events per million people if you get COVID.

The one you posted I had a hard time reading because I don't really understand the terms "adjusted hazard ratio", and "absolute rate". It also doesn't mention what the baseline rate of myocardities is, or the rate of myocardities among those who get COVID and are unvaccinated.  But it seems like while the rate of myocarditis does increase significantly, the absolute rate is still very low, and lower compared to the increase in myocarditis caused by COVID. But, I'll let this article due the talking for me:

Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine


----------



## Quirky

Why are we still talking about this crap. Pandemic is over. Get your booster or not.


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> And THIS study indicates that there was an increase in 2-6 myocarditis events per _million _people vaccinated after the first dose and and additional 10 after the second dose, compared to an increase in 40 myocarditis events per million people if you get COVID.
> 
> The one you posted I had a hard time reading because I don't really understand the terms "adjusted hazard ratio", and "absolute rate". It also doesn't mention what the baseline rate of myocardities is, or the rate of myocardities among those who get COVID and are unvaccinated.  But it seems like while the rate of myocarditis does increase significantly, the absolute rate is still very low, and lower compared to the increase in myocarditis caused by COVID. But, I'll let this article due the talking for me:
> 
> Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination and remains modest after sequential doses including a booster dose of BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine


The study you posted clearly states that "the risk of myocarditis after vaccination is higher in younger men, particularly after a second dose of the mRNA-1273 vaccine."

You never answered any of my questions though. Are you suggesting that the study you posted is evidence that the Danish Health Authority never took into account the risk of adverse effects, including but not limited to the risk of myocarditus? If the risk of side effects is so small, then why not recommend boosters anyway, just to be safe? And, what is different about the situation in Canada that we would have significantly different recommendations despite having a higher vaccination rate already?

To clarify a bit, I am not "vaccine hesitant", "unvaccinated", or against COVID19 vaccination in general.


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> You never answered any of my questions though. Are you suggesting that the study you posted is evidence that the Danish Health Authority never took into account the risk of adverse effects, including but not limited to the risk of myocarditus? If the risk of side effects is so small, then why not recommend boosters anyway, just to be safe?



No, there's no way I have the time or ability to get verifiable evidence as to all the factors that the Danes used to developed their policy wrt to vaccines, though I'm certain that, as any professional body would do, that they at least considered/discussed the increased risk of myocarditis in their policy decision. The Danish Health Authority explained that booster doses wouldn’t _generally _be offered to those under 50, since this population isn’t considered to be at a high risk of severe illness and also because a high level of immunity in the population is already present due to vaccination and previous infection. So, what's was the main factor? And why not just recommend boosters anyway? I don't know. But I would guess that it could be any combination of the cost of the vaccines, the taxing logistics of having to continue managing a large vaccination program, and the headache of dealing with vaccine mandates and anti-vaccine sentiment.  What I do know is they didn’t state that a concern for vaccine safety was what motivated the recommendation. 



winds_13 said:


> And, what is different about the situation in Canada that we would have significantly different recommendations despite having a higher vaccination rate already?



Different governments, different health authorities, different levels of risk aversion (or lack thereof). Most likely, our governments and health agencies (in liberal and conservative provinces alike) so strongly pushed the message that vaccines are absolutely critical that they are probably are trying to save face and don't want to turn around and go "nahhh, you're under 50 you don't need it).


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> Different governments, different health authorities, different levels of risk aversion (or lack thereof). Most likely, our governments and health agencies (in liberal and conservative provinces alike) so strongly pushed the message that vaccines are absolutely critical that they are probably are trying to save face and don't want to turn around and go "nahhh, you're under 50 you don't need it).


Agreed, levels of risk aversion varies between cultures and people. That is why I took offense to your dismissal of other people's concerns. I also agree that there is likely hesitation on the government from quickly changing course due to political ramifications. The federal travel and workplace mandates were suspended in the summer, but no questions were ever answered on what metrics and benchmarks were being used in the determinations to maintain or end them. The day before the suspension they were being argued as vitally essential in parliament, then all of a sudden they weren't any more.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604388906941685762


winds_13 said:


> That is your opinion. I'd argue it depends on one's risk factors. For example, if one is over 60, then vaccination is almost certainly advisable. As I posted earlier, the Danish Health Authority does not agree with your *expert assessment.*


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in China...

Scientists at the China National Health Commission estimate the R number is currently a whopping 16 in China durng this surge. "This is a really high level of transmissibility," Cowling says. "That's why China couldn't keep their zero-COVID policy going. The virus is just too transmissible even for them."

On top of that, the virus appears to be spreading faster in China than omicron spread in surges elsewhere, Cowling adds. Last winter, cases doubled in the U.S. every three days or so. "Now in China, the doubling time is like hours," Cowling says. "Even if you manage to slow it down a bit, it's still going to be doubling very, very quickly. And so the hospitals are going to come under pressure possibly by the end of this month."



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604818043548344321


----------



## lenaitch

Whether or not the vaccines performed as advertised, I thought the primary goal was to lessen the impact on the healthcare system.  If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?

It seems that, as time goes by, I encounter more and more people who have been infected, myself included - fully vaccinated (except the bi-valent booster).  We were both pretty sick for a number of days in November and I'm not convinced we are fully recovered.  Would we have been sicker, maybe hospitalized, if we weren't vaccinated?  Not willing to find out.

How about next time we have a pandemic, we designate an area where nothing changes and it can run its course.  Looking for volunteers.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in China...
> 
> Scientists at the China National Health Commission estimate the R number is currently a whopping 16 in China durng this surge. "This is a really high level of transmissibility," Cowling says. "That's why China couldn't keep their zero-COVID policy going. The virus is just too transmissible even for them."
> 
> On top of that, the virus appears to be spreading faster in China than omicron spread in surges elsewhere, Cowling adds. Last winter, cases doubled in the U.S. every three days or so. "Now in China, the doubling time is like hours," Cowling says. "Even if you manage to slow it down a bit, it's still going to be doubling very, very quickly. And so the hospitals are going to come under pressure possibly by the end of this month."
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604818043548344321


China’s in a world of shit. Tough to get good info out of there, but lots of anecdotal info coming out about bodies stacking up and crematoriums running horribly backlogged. They appear to have chosen and accepted allowing a rapid burn-through of the virus through the population. They’re in for an awful month or two.


----------



## Good2Golf

I wonder if there are any demographic insights associated with the coming wave? #tinfoilhat


Chinese officials…”oh look, a disproportionately large amount of young ‘One Child Policy’ males is dying…”


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in China...
> 
> Scientists at the China National Health Commission estimate the R number is currently a whopping 16 in China durng this surge. "This is a really high level of transmissibility," Cowling says. "That's why China couldn't keep their zero-COVID policy going. The virus is just too transmissible even for them."
> 
> On top of that, the virus appears to be spreading faster in China than omicron spread in surges elsewhere, Cowling adds. Last winter, cases doubled in the U.S. every three days or so. "Now in China, the doubling time is like hours," Cowling says. "Even if you manage to slow it down a bit, it's still going to be doubling very, very quickly. And so the hospitals are going to come under pressure possibly by the end of this month."
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604818043548344321



If it's that bad I sure hope we aren't accepting China originated passengers via ant form of travel ATM.


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> If it's that bad I sure hope we aren't accepting China originated passengers via ant form of travel ATM.


…except for the next round of Chinese National microbiologists coming to work at the Canadian National Microbiology Laboratory in Winnipeg, of course…


----------



## Fishbone Jones

winds_13 said:


> Agreed, levels of risk aversion varies between cultures and people. That is why I took offense to your dismissal of other people's concerns. I also agree that there is likely hesitation on the government from quickly changing course due to political ramifications. The federal travel and workplace mandates were suspended in the summer, but no questions were ever answered on what metrics and benchmarks were being used in the determinations to maintain or end them. The day before the suspension they were being argued as vitally essential in parliament, then all of a sudden they weren't any


Good posts. It's not your fault, that your answers aren't convoluted enough, full of straw men and conjecture to satisfy some chronic contrarians. Sometimes the simple explanation is the right one.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Whether or not the vaccines performed as advertised, I thought the primary goal was to lessen the impact on the healthcare system.  If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?



Good question.



lenaitch said:


> Would we have been sicker, maybe hospitalized, if we weren't vaccinated? Not willing to find out.
> 
> How about next time we have a pandemic, we designate an area where nothing changes and it can run its course.  Looking for volunteers.



Not a scientist,  but sounds like an interesting experiment.


----------



## winds_13

lenaitch said:


> Whether or not the vaccines performed as advertised, I thought the primary goal was to lessen the impact on the healthcare system.  If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?
> 
> It seems that, as time goes by, I encounter more and more people who have been infected, myself included - fully vaccinated (except the bi-valent booster).  We were both pretty sick for a number of days in November and I'm not convinced we are fully recovered.  Would we have been sicker, maybe hospitalized, if we weren't vaccinated?  Not willing to find out.
> 
> How about next time we have a pandemic, we designate an area where nothing changes and it can run its course.  Looking for volunteers.


The vaccine mandates were advertised as a way to ensure a healthy workplace, how they would do that despite significant evidence even a year ago that they were not particularly effective at preventing transmission is beyond me (check out some of my posts from Fall 2021 for some relevant studies and news articles). 

Some have made the case that the mandates created more net harm than potential good, including increasing vaccine hesitancy amongst certain populations. In the U.K. the government took such concerns into account before they decided against instilling federal mandates.



			The unintended consequences of COVID-19 vaccine policy: why mandates, passports and restrictions may cause more harm than good | BMJ Global Health
		


From my perspective, it seems plausible that the mandates and passports may have even increased virus transmission by providing many with the notion that they were well protected... as long as they didn't come in contact with any of the despicables that make up the unvaccinated population. As Omicron gained prevalence a year ago, many were going to large capacity venues such as concerts, frequenting restaurants, and generally dropping many of the previous health measures comforted by the false belief that being vaccinated meant they were unlikely to spread COVID19 to others. Many workplaces started to experience major outbreaks after having recently let go of their unvaccinated staff, including 30 Ottawa paramedics who caught COVID19 from a single Christmas party at a downtown restaurant (when vaccine passports prevented unvaccinated patrons). 









						30 COVID-19 cases in Ottawa Paramedic Service, 93 patients possibly exposed - Ottawa | Globalnews.ca
					

Thirty members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19, though the chief of the service says there's been no impact on service levels.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto police facilities
					

There are currently two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto Police facilities, one of which involves at least 32 positive cases.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				












						85 Mississauga fire staff currently isolating amid COVID-19 outbreaks
					

Firefighters in Mississauga are sounding an alarm over staff shortages brought on in part by several outbreaks of COVID-19 among firefighters.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca
				




There is plenty of data on hospitalization and death rates amongst millions of people, categorized by age, vaccination status, etc.  Mandates came into effect over a year into the pandemic and by that time the risk factors associated with severe outcomes were relatively well known, as were methods to prevent spread (like masking, ventilation, and reducing contacts). The alternatives to mandates were never pitched as letting the virus "run its course"... there was plenty of middle ground between doing nothing and firing 25 year old public servants who work from home in the name of "ensuring safe workplaces".


----------



## Lumber

Fishbone Jones said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604388906941685762


So, he claims that "peer reviewed research demonstrates 1 in every 100 people receiving the Pfeizer jab suffers a serious reaction" .
(In reality, if Canada can be considered an adequate indicator, the number is closer to 1 in every 10,000 people, or 0.011% of doses, and in the case of the new bivalent vaccines, the rates is even lower, at 0.0007% of doses.)

He then quotes a Dr Aseem Malhotra, claiming research showing they should never have approved the vaccine and should now stop/pause use of the vaccine because of the prevalence of adverse reactions. 

If you google him, you find Dr Malhotra doesn't actually seem claim to have any of his own research (at least none that I could find), but instead quotes other doctors (such as Dr. Aheem Malik, and Professors Norman Fenton and Martin Neil), who claim to have research showing the risk of adverse reactions, and also claiming that their papers are not being published because they don't fit the narrative.

What is common among all of this is that at no point do any of these people actually present any credible proof, studies, evidence, numbers, or similar. Even if those doctors are being un-justifiably censored, it doesn't matter; you don't have to ask permission to share the results of your own research. If a credible journal won't share your paper, you can just post it yourself. If their research papers were real and accurate and as damning as they claim, they could easily just share their results. What were the studies? Who did you test? What were the reactions? What was the actual rate? What were the control measures? Hell, just share a google docs link to your whole paper! But no, not one bit of supporting evidence, documentation, or even just some raw numbers posted to a tweet.

On the other hand, I can find dozens of peer reviewed studies on the safety of the vaccine from dozens of different scientists, universities, health authorities, etc. Every single one of them points to the vaccines being safe.

So I call BS on that whole video.


----------



## Lumber

winds_13 said:


> The vaccine mandates were advertised as a way to ensure a healthy workplace, how they would do that despite significant evidence even a year ago that they were not particularly effective at preventing transmission is beyond me (check out some of my posts from Fall 2021 for some relevant studies and news articles).
> 
> Some have made the case that the mandates created more net harm than potential good, including increasing vaccine hesitancy amongst certain populations. In the U.K. the government took such concerns into account before they decided against instilling federal mandates.
> 
> 
> 
> The unintended consequences of COVID-19 vaccine policy: why mandates, passports and restrictions may cause more harm than good | BMJ Global Health
> 
> 
> 
> From my perspective, it seems plausible that the mandates and passports may have even increased virus transmission by providing many with the notion that they were well protected... as long as they didn't come in contact with any of the despicables that make up the unvaccinated population. As Omicron gained prevalence a year ago, many were going to large capacity venues such as concerts, frequenting restaurants, and generally dropping many of the previous health measures comforted by the false belief that being vaccinated meant they were unlikely to spread COVID19 to others. Many workplaces started to experience major outbreaks after having recently let go of their unvaccinated staff, including 30 Ottawa paramedics who caught COVID19 from a single Christmas party at a downtown restaurant (when vaccine passports prevented unvaccinated patrons).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 30 COVID-19 cases in Ottawa Paramedic Service, 93 patients possibly exposed - Ottawa | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Thirty members of the Ottawa Paramedic Service have tested positive for COVID-19, though the chief of the service says there's been no impact on service levels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto police facilities
> 
> 
> There are currently two active COVID-19 outbreaks at Toronto Police facilities, one of which involves at least 32 positive cases.
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 85 Mississauga fire staff currently isolating amid COVID-19 outbreaks
> 
> 
> Firefighters in Mississauga are sounding an alarm over staff shortages brought on in part by several outbreaks of COVID-19 among firefighters.
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is plenty of data on hospitalization and death rates amongst millions of people, categorized by age, vaccination status, etc.  Mandates came into effect over a year into the pandemic and by that time the risk factors associated with severe outcomes were relatively well known, as were methods to prevent spread (like masking, ventilation, and reducing contacts). The alternatives to mandates were never pitched as letting the virus "run its course"... there was plenty of middle ground between doing nothing and firing 25 year old public servants who work from home in the name of "ensuring safe workplaces".


@winds_13 , you're too reasonable.

Mandates and passports may have even increased virus transmission? 
Did vaccine mandates had the desired effect, and even if so, were they unnecessarily broad/restrictive?
These are great topics to discuss. These are the kind ideas that we need to be having open and honest discussion about, with supporting research, so that we can find the "middle grounds" you mentioned.

However, that's boring. What I'm more interested in is fighting back against fake news, mainly countering any claim that:
1. Vaccines are dangerous, or that their level of danger outweighs the danger from COVID;
2. That,_ given the information available at the time_, COVID restrictions were foolhardy, cruel, or unnecessary;
3. That any of the actions taken by the government with respect to restrictions or vaccine mandates were done with nefarious intent, such as aiming to gain/consolidate more power/money for themselves, their friends (cronies), or their political parties. (i.e. claims such as that we approved the vaccines not because we needed them and believed they would work, but because the politicians wanted to help their friends in Bio-Tech get rich).
4. etc.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Meanwhile, in China...
> 
> Scientists at the China National Health Commission estimate the R number is currently a whopping 16 in China durng this surge. "This is a really high level of transmissibility," Cowling says. "That's why China couldn't keep their zero-COVID policy going. The virus is just too transmissible even for them."
> 
> On top of that, the virus appears to be spreading faster in China than omicron spread in surges elsewhere, Cowling adds. Last winter, cases doubled in the U.S. every three days or so. "Now in China, the doubling time is like hours," Cowling says. "Even if you manage to slow it down a bit, it's still going to be doubling very, very quickly. And so the hospitals are going to come under pressure possibly by the end of this month."
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1604818043548344321


There was some journal articles I was glancing at the other day that basically vindicated the Swedish approach that was taken during the Pandemic as the excess deaths are now lower there than elsewhere and initial success some of their neighbours had in comparison proved to be a false-dawn.

Of course, nobody will admit this because the topic is so heavily politicized now.

Who would have thought, not caving in to hysteria and taking moderate protective measures and allowing people the right to choose would prove to be a highly effective strategy? 🤣


----------



## QV

Good2Golf said:


> I wonder if there are any demographic insights associated with the coming wave? #tinfoilhat
> 
> 
> Chinese officials…”oh look, a disproportionately large amount of young ‘One Child Policy’ males is dying…”
> View attachment 75516



I was thinking that after all those years of 'one child policy' and the now upside down demographics... that a virus which is specifically harmful to the elder was just a little too convenient...


----------



## Lumber

QV said:


> I was thinking that after all those years of 'one child policy' and the now upside down demographics... that a virus which is specifically harmful to the elder was just a little too convenient...


Yes, though morbid, it was, and that is absolutely all.


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> @winds_13 , you're too reasonable.
> 
> Mandates and passports may have even increased virus transmission?
> Did vaccine mandates had the desired effect, and even if so, were they unnecessarily broad/restrictive?
> These are great topics to discuss. These are the kind ideas that we need to be having open and honest discussion about, with supporting research, so that we can find the "middle grounds" you mentioned.
> 
> However, that's boring. What I'm more interested in is fighting back against fake news, mainly countering any claim that:
> 1. Vaccines are dangerous, or that their level of danger outweighs the danger from COVID;
> 2. That,_ given the information available at the time_, COVID restrictions were foolhardy, cruel, or unnecessary;
> 3. That any of the actions taken by the government with respect to restrictions or vaccine mandates were done with nefarious intent, such as aiming to gain/consolidate more power/money for themselves, their friends (cronies), or their political parties. (i.e. claims such as that we approved the vaccines not because we needed them and believed they would work, but because the politicians wanted to help their friends in Bio-Tech get rich).
> 4. etc.


Note: edited for tone and brevity

While your points about fighting fake news don't seem to be pointing directly at me, the breadth/generality of the points seem to infer that what I have said could be labelled as "fake news". Here are some counter arguments:

1. Risks associated with COVID19 have drastically shifted over time, with Omicron being more vaccine resistant than previous strains but also generally posing significantly less risk of hospitalization (although hospitalization rates in enfants may have actually increased). The risk of side effects from vaccination, even if small, remain unchanged, however. This affects the cost/benefit analysis of vaccination... how could it not? And what about the AstraZeneca vaccine?... Is it fake news to suggest that its potential benefit did not outweigh its level of risk for those under 55? 'cause that's the position taken by Canadian health authorities.

2. Many people spoke out against vaccine mandates and passport programs _at the time_. Feel free to look at my post history from Fall 2021, you will see that I was making many of the same arguments and that there was significant information available at the time that put the available vaccines' ability to reduce transmission in question. The court testimony from PHAC's head epidemiologist stated that, at the time, they never recommended implementing vaccine mandates for domestic travel because it was not considered to be an effective mitigation measure? When the U.K. parliament decided not to impose a vaccine mandate system, I believe the argument used was that they weren't going to impose such restrictions "just because" (assumedly just because the public wants to).

You have lumped all "COVID restrictions" into one category as if being against vaccine mandates and passport policies are akin to other measures like lockdowns, capacity limits, mask wearing, distancing, etc.. I have never spoken against the importance of masking or other preventative measures.

3. I believe most people recognize that COVID policies, sadly, became extremely politicized. During the last federal election, the Liberal party used the vaccine mandate for public servants as a wedge issue. It appears that it may have been the key issue that turned around their numbers at a time when much of the focus was on why they decided to call the election in the first place. Both the Liberal and the Conservatives proposed vaccine mandates for the public service, the difference between the 2 policies was that the Conservative policy included accommodation for those who chose not to be vaccinated whereas the Liberal plan made clear that accommodation would be rare and that employees placed on leave would be denied EI (although they were on administrative leave and not officially being disciplined). If COVID policies were used as debate topics during the election, then how can they be separated from an intent to gain more power for their political party?


----------



## QV

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There was some journal articles I was glancing at the other day that basically vindicated the Swedish approach that was taken during the Pandemic as the excess deaths are now lower there than elsewhere and initial success some of their neighbours had in comparison proved to be a false-dawn.
> 
> Of course, nobody will admit this because the topic is so heavily politicized now.
> 
> Who would have thought, not caving in to hysteria and taking moderate protective measures and allowing people the right to choose would prove to be a highly effective strategy? 🤣


The suppression of dissenting opinions by experts in the field played/plays a big part.


----------



## mariomike

My former employer has ended mandatory vaccination effective this month - and is offering those they fired their old jobs back.









						Toronto ends mandatory COVID-19 vaccination for city workers
					

The city is also offering to reinstate hundreds of workers fired for breaching the mandate — but one a paramedic says ‘there’s a lot of healing to be done.’




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

mariomike said:


> My former employer has ended mandatory vaccination effective this month - and is offering those they fired their old jobs back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto ends mandatory COVID-19 vaccination for city workers
> 
> 
> The city is also offering to reinstate hundreds of workers fired for breaching the mandate — but one a paramedic says ‘there’s a lot of healing to be done.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com



I've heard this a few times from different organizations I think.  

I see it all as a big nothing burger anymore.  

From where I sit is pretty obvious to me we vastly overreacted.  I fear the damage that has been done to our society and scientific institutions will take a long time to repair, if they can ever be repaired.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Better we overreacted and found out then under reacted and .........................."bring out your dead, bring out your dead,...."

Of course they'll be repaired, frig we're not that weak.  The onlt reason you even hear about this anymore is because we have a  bunch of vocal  "need to be seen just like a Kardashian" types who get it via social media clikbaits.


----------



## mariomike

Some pretty nasty customer service comments in the article.

The mayor said 99 per cent of city staff have had at least two doses of COVID-19 vaccine.

Interesting question Reply #8,002



> If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?



Influenza vacination used to be mandated in my former job classification. It's not anymore, but if you don't get vaxxed,



> All Paramedics who have elected not to have the influenza vaccine will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.



I imagine they will now write Covid vaccine into the book as well,



> All Paramedics who have elected not to have the influenza - or Covid - vaccine will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Better we overreacted and found out then under reacted and .........................."bring out your dead, bring out your dead,...."
> 
> Of course they'll be repaired, frig we're not that weak.  The onlt reason you even hear about this anymore is because we have a  bunch of vocal  "need to be seen just like a Kardashian" types who get it via social media clikbaits.



We can disagree on all accounts.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Better we overreacted and found out then under reacted and .........................."bring out your dead, bring out your dead,...."
> 
> *Of course they'll be repaired, frig we're not that weak*.  The onlt reason you even hear about this anymore is because we have a  bunch of vocal  "need to be seen just like a Kardashian" types who get it via social media clikbaits.


The Canadian Armed Forces of 2022 would like a word.



Halifax Tar said:


> We can disagree on all accounts.



Most Countries didn't even follow the recommended protocols for a viral outbreak from the WHO.  The few that did were chastized for political/narrative purposes.

This is going to be an amazing case study in 40-50 years.  We need all the current people responsible for it to pass away before it will be allowed to be objectively looked at.


----------



## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Better we overreacted and found out then under reacted and .........................."bring out your dead, bring out your dead,...."


I agree to a point. I really don't think the scientific community was all that forthcoming - not to mention the hypocrisy displayed by some senior members of the medical community - at least here in Mb.


----------



## mariomike

The 1 Dec. return to work only applies to unionized City employees.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Canadian Armed Forces of 2022 would like a word.
> 
> 
> 
> Most Countries didn't even follow the recommended protocols for a viral outbreak from the WHO.  The few that did were chastized for political/narrative purposes.
> 
> This is going to be an amazing case study in 40-50 years.  We need all the current people responsible for it to pass away before it will be allowed to be objectively looked at.


What? Like the JFK files?


----------



## Navy_Pete

Halifax Tar said:


> I've heard this a few times from different organizations I think.
> 
> I see it all as a big nothing burger anymore.
> 
> From where I sit is pretty obvious to me we vastly overreacted.  I fear the damage that has been done to our society and scientific institutions will take a long time to repair, if they can ever be repaired.


Did we vastly over react? Or was the combo of lockdowns and  getting the majority of the population vaccinated simply effective at slowing the spread and reducing the severity of COVID once people did get it, making it look like not a big deal?

I work on the fire safety side, and people always think we're being too cautious, and then something happens like the Bonhomme Richard or Grenfell towers and people wonder why they didn't do the basics? Just because a seatbelt kept you from going through the windshield and an airbag kept you from smashing off the steering column doesn't mean it wasn't a bad accident. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## mariomike

The internet can argue their scientific opinions. What's fair. What's not fair.

Fact is, they were fired in Sept. 2021 and re-hired in Dec. 2022. They will not be getting any back pay those 15 lost months.

They lost their schedule, station and partner. They will return on what they call "Swing".



> If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?



Another good question could be, "If the city hadn't imposed mandates, and sent un-vaxxed paramedics into patients homes ( many of whom were high risk ) and some died, would their families sue the city?

Or, as these un-vaxxed people return to duty, will there be Work Refusals from people refusing to be partnered with and cooped up together for 12 hours? Will they be forced to wear PPE?

One thing for sure, unvaxxed Paramedics will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.



> ( Toronto ) Paramedic ( name deleted ) is just as thrilled to go back to her chosen career. However, other than what city officials included in some media releases, how that will actually work has not yet been articulated.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Navy_Pete said:


> Did we vastly over react? Or was the combo of lockdowns and  getting the majority of the population vaccinated simply effective at slowing the spread and reducing the severity of COVID once people did get it, making it look like not a big deal?
> 
> I work on the fire safety side, and people always think we're being too cautious, and then something happens like the Bonhomme Richard or Grenfell towers and *people wonder why they didn't do the basics*? Just because a seatbelt kept you from going through the windshield and an airbag kept you from smashing off the steering column doesn't mean it wasn't a bad accident. 🤷‍♂️



Memories of angry discussions with various family members about keeping stairways and doorways clear of the junk that piles up there around this time of year ...

#grinchlife


----------



## Navy_Pete

daftandbarmy said:


> Memories of angry discussions with various family members about keeping stairways and doorways clear of the junk that piles up there around this time of year ...
> 
> #grinchlife



Keeping a real tree watered helps a lot too; doing post xmas bonfires is crazy to see how fast they go up otherwise.

I have a fake tree, but mostly so I don't worry about it when it's up for a month, and frankly my family would be too full of complaints for cutting it down ourselves not to turn into a giant arguement.

There are some pretty neat temporary fire suppression things that are great if you put them up right overtop the tree (and orientated horizontally for proper coverage) but at least with LED lights most of the actual heat source is gone now, so really more electrical shorts than hot lights to worry about.

But yeah, sometimes seems overly cautious until something happens, and at the start of COVID Italy and some other places (NYC) were starting to get overwhelmed and had no room for the bodies, and with how interconnected the world is with air travel, really hard to say how bad/not bad it would have been if we did nothing.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Navy_Pete said:


> Did we vastly over react? Or was the combo of lockdowns and  getting the majority of the population vaccinated simply effective at slowing the spread and reducing the severity of COVID once people did get it, making it look like not a big deal?
> 
> I work on the fire safety side, and people always think we're being too cautious, and then something happens like the Bonhomme Richard or Grenfell towers and people wonder why they didn't do the basics? Just because a seatbelt kept you from going through the windshield and an airbag kept you from smashing off the steering column doesn't mean it wasn't a bad accident. 🤷‍♂️



No I think we overreacted.  The truth is it posed almost no threat unless you had preexisting condition(s) or were elderly.  

I'm just glad we finally seemed to have moved on.


----------



## mariomike

Altogether, they fired 461 union and non-union city employees.

The 350 union employees were offered reinstatment this month.

The non-union employees were not offered reinstatement.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Halifax Tar said:


> No I think we overreacted.  The truth is it posed almost no threat unless you had preexisting condition(s) or were elderly.


You really didn't pay attention then did you?  

 I realize the horror it must have been for a lot of you military folk to be forced to be take pay to "stay home and stay safe".......not like "dem lucky bastards that got to go to work everyday,  just praying that what little safety precautions there were, actually did their job one more day.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> You really didn't pay attention then did you?
> 
> I realize the horror it must have been for a lot of you military folk to be forced to be take pay to "stay home and stay safe".......not like "dem lucky bastards that got to go to work everyday,  just praying that what little safety precautions there were, actually did their job one more day.



Actually lips I was deployed and recovering bodies and confined to ship while all this went down, so slow your roll.

The only WFH I got was when I caught COVID, symptomless, and had a week of learning French at home.

I wanna say alot more to you but I enjoy this forum.  Let's just say you need you suck back and reload more often.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Halifax Tar said:


> Actually lips I was deployed and recovering bodies and confined to ship while all this went down, so slow your roll.


Then it doesn't apply to you,...thanks for your service.  [EDIT: I truly mean that.]
As long as it doesn't violate site guidelines say what you wish, I take my Mod duties quite serious and keep them totally separate from lively discussions.

You must be thinking of the CAF Reddit forum....


----------



## Halifax Tar

Nothing I want to say to you would follow these forums guidelines.


----------



## Lumber

Halifax Tar said:


> No I think we overreacted.  The truth is it posed almost no threat unless you had preexisting condition(s) or were elderly.
> 
> I'm just glad we finally seemed to have moved on.


Yes, and moving around unvaccinated brings the disease right to all of those vulnerable people.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Lumber said:


> Yes, and moving around unvaccinated brings the disease right to all of those vulnerable people.



Then have the vulnerable take the necessary precautions or steps.

Eat a healthy diet, exercise, take your vitamins.

You will of course forgive me I don't find sudden and instant safety in the arms of our government and big pharma.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Lumber said:


> Yes, and moving around unvaccinated brings the disease right to all of those vulnerable people.


Then those vulnerable people should be wearing masks and be vaxxed and boosted. Government says that's how you stay safe, right? If you perceive me as a medical threat, you, stay away from me. I'll  be easy to spot. I don't wear a mask or social distance. No, I haven't had covid.


----------



## Lumber

Halifax Tar said:


> No I think we overreacted.  The truth is it posed almost no threat unless you had preexisting condition(s) or were elderly.
> 
> I'm just glad we finally seemed to have moved on.


Legit question: Do you think that things like mask mandates, mandatory social distancing, gathering limits, etc. are never appropriate steps to fight a pandemic, or do you simply believe that in this case (I.e.this pandemic) those measures were inappropriate (either taken too far or not necessary at all)?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Lumber said:


> Legit question: Do you think that things like mask mandates, mandatory social distancing, gathering limits, etc. are never appropriate steps to fight a pandemic, or do you simply believe that in this case (I.e.this pandemic) those measures were inappropriate (either taken too far or not necessary at all)?



I think there is a time a place for that, absolutely.    

But much like going to war it's needs to be the absolute last resort.


----------



## mariomike

Navy_Pete said:


> Did we vastly over react? Or was the combo of lockdowns and  getting the majority of the population vaccinated simply effective at slowing the spread and reducing the severity of COVID once people did get it, making it look like not a big deal?



In internet chat rooms, depends on who you ask.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> The internet can argue their scientific opinions. What's fair. What's not fair.
> 
> Fact is, they were fired in Sept. 2021 and re-hired in Dec. 2022. They will not be getting any back pay those 15 lost months.
> 
> They lost their schedule, station and partner. They will return on what they call "Swing".
> 
> 
> 
> Another good question could be, "If the city hadn't imposed mandates, and sent un-vaxxed paramedics into patients homes ( many of whom were high risk ) and some died, would their families sue the city?
> 
> Or, as these un-vaxxed people return to duty, will there be Work Refusals from people refusing to be partnered with and cooped up together for 12 hours? Will they be forced to wear PPE?
> 
> One thing for sure, unvaxxed Paramedics will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.


The evidence, even at the time, didn't suggest the vaccines offered significant protect against virus transmission... so why would they be putting others at increased risk? When these mandates came into effect, their was no credible studies held up as proof that they were likely to have a positive impact.

It has been a long time since any credible source has suggested that the vaccines would prevent spread. Rather, they now state that the goal was always to reduce individual risk of being hospitalized... what about all the talk of the vaccines providing herd immunity? It seems like herd immunity was achieved through mass infection, given that the majority of the population, vaxxed and unvaxxed alike, have already had COVID at least once.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, in China:

China Is Likely Registering 1 Million Covid Cases, 5,000 Deaths A Day: Report​
China is likely experiencing 1 million Covid infections and 5,000 virus deaths every day as it grapples with what is expected to be the biggest outbreak the world has ever seen, according to a new analysis.

The situation could get even worse for the country of 1.4 billion people. This current wave may see the daily case rate rise to 3.7 million in January, according to Airfinity Ltd., a London-based research firm that focuses on predictive health analytics and has been tracking the pandemic since it first emerged. There'll likely then be another surge of infections that will push the daily peak to 4.2 million in March, the group estimated.

Its modeling of the scale and toll of China's outbreak, which uses provincial data, shows the impact of the country's abrupt pivot away from Covid Zero far exceeds the government's tally.









						China Is Likely Registering 1 Million Covid Cases, 5,000 Deaths A Day: Report
					

China is likely experiencing 1 million Covid infections and 5,000 virus deaths every day as it grapples with what is expected to be the biggest outbreak the world has ever seen, according to a new analysis.




					www.ndtv.com


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> The evidence, even at the time, didn't suggest the vaccines offered significant protect against virus transmission... so why would they be putting others at increased risk? When these mandates came into effect, their was no credible studies held up as proof that they were likely to have a positive impact.
> 
> It has been a long time since any credible source has suggested that the vaccines would prevent spread. Rather, they now state that the goal was always to reduce individual risk of being hospitalized... what about all the talk of the vaccines providing herd immunity? It seems like herd immunity was achieved through mass infection, given that the majority of the population, vaxxed and unvaxxed alike, have already had COVID at least once.



I did not offer a medical opinion.

I asked three questions:



> If employers hadn't imposed mandates and some employee(s) died, would we have let them off the hook for not ensuring a healthy workplace?





> If the city hadn't imposed mandates, and sent un-vaxxed paramedics into patients homes and some patients died, would their families sue the city?





> As these un-vaxxed paramedics return to duty, will there be Work Refusals from colleauges refusing to be partnered with, and cooped up together for 12 hours?



And one fact ( based on the already standing inluenza vaccine order ),



> One thing for sure, unvaxxed Paramedics will be required to wear full PPE on all respiratory illness calls.





> ( Toronto ) Paramedic ( name deleted ) is thrilled to go back to her chosen career. However, other than what city officials included in some media releases, how that will actually work has not yet been articulated.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> China is likely experiencing 1 million Covid infections and 5,000 virus deaths every day as it grapples with what is expected to be the biggest outbreak the world has ever seen, according to a new analysis.



An aging population with a crap-tone of elderly will do that. 5000 a day in a population of 1.4b is nothing, Covid is just speeding up the life-expectancy process. China has 1.4b and will still have 1.4b once Covid makes it's way through the population.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> I did not offer a medical opinion.
> 
> I asked three questions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one fact ( based on the already standing inluenza vaccine order ),


I never said that you offered a medical opinion, but your questions seem to be based on a false belief that unvaccinated individuals pose a signifcantly greater threat to others when it comes to transmission than those who are vaccinated. This is not the case and there was never actually stronv evidence that it was, rather there were people hypothesizing that the vaccines offered significant transmission reduction based off research on other vaccines.

To answer your question then, I see no evidence that unvaccinated individuals pose any meaningfully greater threat when it comes to spreading the virus. So, why have different regulations for them at all? Unless you are worried about that individual unvaccinated employees increased risk of being hospitalized?

Rather, if it is required that unvaccinated employees need to wear full PPE when they return to work, then I would suggest that it should be recommended for all employees to don full PPE. The large outbreaks amongst fully vaccinated workforces should have demonstrated that vaccination alone doesn't meaningfully reduce spread. If they want to reduce spread, then they need to adopt/maintain other measures, such as masking.

For paramedics, I would think that donning PPE was always mandatory when answering respiratory illness calls or when dealing with vulnerable populations during influenza season. Flu vaccines are largely effective but are developed months ahead of time based off of expected strains. They do not guarantee no transmission. This is not to say that people should not get the flu vaccine, but rather that mayne they should continue to take other precautions when around vulnerable populations, su h as the elderly.

My question to you: do you think paramedics that take the flu vaccine should be free to take less precautions?


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> Legit question: Do you think that things like mask mandates, mandatory social distancing, gathering limits, etc. are never appropriate steps to fight a pandemic, or do you simply believe that in this case (I.e.this pandemic) those measures were inappropriate (either taken too far or not necessary at all)?


If you ask me, I would not discount any of the measures you just mentioned as never warranting implementation.

Determination, in my opinion, should be based off of risk/impact assessments. The more threat posed by the virus, the more likely such measures may be warranted. After the first few months of COVID, though, it became clear that the majority of the population was not at great risk of severe outcomes, though. Certain populations, particularly the elderly, were at great risk though.

This is why some countries considered mandates that would only affect the over 60 population. In Canada, however, we chose to charge forward with workplace mandates that generally affect the under 60 population. 

As a discussion point, at the start of the pandemic, when vaccines were expected to be over a year in development, there was a small movement to voluntarily infect part of the healthy population. This would provide more data on the virus' effects on healthier populations, as well as potentially provide a form of herd immunity. It was even suggested that some frontline workers, such as paramedics, should be voluntarily infected to avoid having significant portions of the force quarantining at the same time. It seems the last thing you would want at the height of a wave is for all the healthcare workers to be sick at the same time. 

What do you think about this approach, given that we knew early on that those who've already recovered were at low risk of reinfection?

www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1203931

One of the greatest threats posed by COVID19 was its prevalence to spread amongst those who display no symptoms. Throughout all strains, much of the population who caught COVID19 were completely asymptomatic, or presented symptoms that seemed too mild to warrant alarm. Add to this that tests were never 100% accurate and typically would not show positive results until several days after infection (so an ealry negative result was never a guarantee that soneone wasn't infected and contagious).


----------



## winds_13

Lumber said:


> Yes, and moving around unvaccinated brings the disease right to all of those vulnerable people.


This is based off a false assumption that unvaccinated individuals pose some sort of greater risk of trnasmission than those who are vaccinated. There was never strong evidence of this and no competent health authority has been suggesting this for quite some time. This is why when speaking of vaccination, the main argument is now that it helps prevent hospitalization, not that it meaningfully prevents infection or transmission.

Last winter we had vaccine mandates and passports across the country, it was during this time that transmission reached unprecedented levels. The increased transmissibility of Omicron helped, but so did the relaxing of capacity limits and other health measures. Many were under the impression that it was okay to relax measures as long as they could avoid being around unvaccinated people, treating them as modern untouchables... why?

I'd argue that we should focus on vaccinating the vulnerable population, and perhaps concern ourselves less with whether or not less vulnearble people are vaccinated... This is the approach that Denmark has taken, after all. In contrast, China has 'til now been successful at preventing transmission (at great humanitarian and economic cost), but does not have particularly high vaccination rates amongst the elderly (why get vaccinated when transmission and death are so low in your country, after all?)... which country do you think is doing a better job of protecting vulnerable populations going into 2023?


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> For paramedics, I would think that donning PPE was always mandatory when answering respiratory illness calls or when dealing with vulnerable populations during influenza season. Flu vaccines are largely effective but are developed months ahead of time based off of expected strains. They do not guarantee no transmission. This is not to say that people should not get the flu vaccine, but rather that mayne they should continue to take other precautions when around vulnerable populations, su h as the elderly.
> 
> My question to you: do you think paramedics that take the flu vaccine should be free to take less precautions?



Patient Care and Transportation Standards - Ontario

Influenza Control

a. during a declared influenza outbreak in respect of any geographic area specified in the declaration, including but not limited to a health care facility, an unvaccinated paramedic will not be allowed to respond to a request for ambulance service in that area or facility during the outbreak, unless he or she has been vaccinated or receives his or her vaccination at the time of the outbreak and takes antiviral medication immediately prior to the time at which the paramedic is to provide service.

b. in an emergency situation, and where no other qualified paramedic is available to provide service during a declared influenza outbreak in such specified geographic area or facility, a paramedic who has not been vaccinated against influenza, or who has not been taking antiviral medication immediately prior to the time at which the paramedic is to provide service, will not be allowed to provide patient care in that area or facility unless the paramedic wears on each call:
i. gloves (single pair);
ii. mask;
iii. eye protection;

and, for any patient where there is significant risk of being splashed by body fluids (e.g. vomiting, uncontrolled hemorrhage, excessive coughing) also wears on each call:

iv. long-sleeved gown/coveralls.



			https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/edu/docs/patient_care_trans_standards_v2.3.pdf?subject=Patient%20Care%20and%20Transportation%20Standards%20v2.3


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> Patient Care and Transportation Standards - Ontario
> 
> Influenza Control
> 
> a. during a declared influenza outbreak in respect of any geographic area specified in the declaration, including but not limited to a health care facility, an unvaccinated EMA or paramedic will not be allowed to respond to a request for ambulance service in that area or facility during the outbreak, unless he or she has been vaccinated or receives his or her vaccination at the time of the outbreak and takes antiviral medication immediately prior to the time at which the EMA or paramedic is to provide service.
> 
> b. in an emergency situation, and where no other qualified EMA or paramedic is available to provide service during a declared influenza outbreak in such specified geographic area or facility, an EMA or paramedic who has not been vaccinated against influenza, or who has not been taking antiviral medication immediately prior to the time at which the EMA or paramedic is to provide service, will not be allowed to provide patient care in that area or facility unless the EMA or paramedic wears on each call:
> i. gloves (single pair);
> ii. mask;
> iii. eye protection;
> 
> and, for any patient where there is significant risk of being splashed by body fluids (e.g. vomiting, uncontrolled hemorrhage, excessive coughing) also wears on each call:
> 
> iv. long-sleeved gown/coveralls.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/edu/docs/patient_care_trans_standards_v2.3.pdf?subject=Patient%20Care%20and%20Transportation%20Standards%20v2.3


And you never answered any of my questions. I understand that this is the policy, there is no explanation as to why though. Is there significant evidence that this seasons flu vaccines are strongly effective against transmission of the currently spreading variants? 

Or are you just here to repost news, void of personal opinion?... you didn't seem to have any problem suggesting that I was an "anti-vaxxer" before, according to the revised definition provided by Merriam-Webster (opposed to the one found in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, considered as the pre-eminent dictionary in Canada).

Again, I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't get vaccinated against the flu, as a precaution, but why the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated paramedics? The flu is not like polio, where their is strong evidence in the cyrrent vaccines ability to prevent infection and provide herd immunity (look at the case of India in the past few years).


----------



## winds_13

As a disucussion point, the following study was upheld in the spring as strong evidence to maintain the then ongoing policies of vaccine mandates and passports across the country.

If you read it, though, you will find that it is based off of a mathematical model using hypothetical transmission reduction that may be offered by a vaccine. What it doesn't do is refer to any actual data on the current COVID19 vaccines' ability to actually prevent infection or transmission. If the vaccines fail to meaningfully prevent infection or transmission, as they have, then what relevance is this study to the current debate? And does anyone have any better scientific proof regarding the vaccines efficacy for preventing spread?










						Impact of population mixing between vaccinated and unvaccinated subpopulations on infectious disease dynamics: implications for SARS-CoV-2 transmission
					

Background: The speed of vaccine development has been a singular achievement during the COVID-19 pandemic, although uptake has not been universal. Vaccine opponents often frame their opposition in terms of the rights of the unvaccinated. We sought to explore the impact of mixing of vaccinated...




					www.cmaj.ca
				




An example of how these findings were presented in the media:

www.thestar.com/amp/news/gta/2022/04/25/remaining-unvaccinated-increases-risk-to-the-vaccinated-says-u-of-t-covid-study.html









						Being with unvaccinated people increases COVID-19 risk for those who are vaccinated: modelling study
					

While remaining unvaccinated against COVID-19 is often framed as a personal choice, those who spurn the vaccines raise the risk of infection for those around them, a new study suggests.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




...and maybe also consider the reported potential conflicts oc interest:


*Competing interests:* David Fisman has served on advisory boards related to influenza and SARS-CoV-2 vaccines for Seqirus, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and Sanofi-Pasteur Vaccines, and has served as a legal expert on issues related to COVID-19 epidemiology for the Elementary Teachers Federation of Ontario and the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario. He also served as a volunteer scientist on the Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table. Ashleigh Tuite was employed by the Public Health Agency of Canada when the research was conducted. The work does not represent the views of the Public Health Agency of Canada. No other competing interests were declared.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> And you never answered any of my questions. I understand that this is the policy, there is no explanation as to why though.





winds_13 said:


> why the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated paramedics?



Those are the rules. Ours was not to reason why.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> Those are the rules. Ours was not to reason why.


Not even when employers take unprecedented action to curtail human rights. That doesn't even warrant a raised hand followed by a concern. Got it.

As an aside, back near the start of the pandemic I ran a recruiting centre and was the first to physically close our doors to not allow the public to walk off the street to talk to our staff. We maintained our in-person apointments (with masks) and offered for people to call our recruiters to ask their questions. For these first several weeks, our direction was to "remain open and at 100% operational capacity". This was after most CAF members were sent home to protect themselves, and the recruit school closed. I had to ask our medics to provision us extra dispisable masks (they weren't pushed for several weeks). These actions were done in the name of maintaining public health, and we never had an outbreak while maintaining our processing capacity. In return, I was at risk of being charged for closing the office doors to those without appointments (my boss gave me permission after I argued my case, however)... I guess I'm just a crappy soldier that is bad at following orders though.

My questioning of health measures is not simply that we should simply "let 'er rip". Rather, I have been trying to advocate for more reasoned, common sense approaches. I am of the opinion that the mandates and passports were not decided upon logical, but as a response to the majority's desire to find a scapegoat and desolve themselves of wrongdoing by "othering" a large minority of the population. Human rights were adopted to protect individuals from the potential tyranny of majority rule... that is why we refer to ourselves as a "liberal democracy".


----------



## mariomike

> ... you didn't seem to have any problem suggesting that I was an "anti-vaxxer" before, according to the revised definition provided by Merriam-Webster (opposed to the one found in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, considered as the pre-eminent dictionary in Canada).



You do have a long memory,









						All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
					

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the Anglosphere ....  A man was vaccinated against Covid-19 up to 10 times in one day on behalf of other people, prompting an investigation by the Ministry of Health.  It is believed the man, who is understood to have visited several vaccination centres, was paid for the...




					army.ca
				







winds_13 said:


> Got it.



Good. Now I can watch Super Trucker Dan.


----------



## winds_13

mariomike said:


> You do have a long memory,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, elsewhere in the Anglosphere ....  A man was vaccinated against Covid-19 up to 10 times in one day on behalf of other people, prompting an investigation by the Ministry of Health.  It is believed the man, who is understood to have visited several vaccination centres, was paid for the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> army.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good. Now I can watch Super Trucker Dan.


An elephant never forgets


----------



## Fishbone Jones

There is the Canadian lab link which needs to be opened and inspected. That, if true, would explain the trudeau governments reluctance to release any info on the Canadian lab connection, and transfers to China. If there is no guilt on Canada's  part, there should be a push by the government to quell the rumours and disassociate themselves from the fiasco. Unfortunately, and towards their ever increasing detriment, they refuse to acknowledge there was even a problem all the while avoiding any questions as to whether we had a part to play. After all, it,would be the end of the 'quiet Canadian' narrative that we've cultivated over the years and trudeau would be seen as the major factor in destroying said narrative.

The more the liberals ignore this, the more they appear complicit and the myriad of overreaching mandates and controls placed on a democratic people seem planned and purposeful.


----------



## mariomike

winds_13 said:


> Not even when employers take unprecedented action to curtail human rights. That doesn't even warrant a raised hand followed by a concern. Got it.



Anyone who thought it was a violation of their human rights could have complained to the Ontario Human Rights Commission ( OHRC ) years ago.

Or, filed a grievance to the union.

Nothing new about the influenza order.

Been in effect since long before Covid. Before SARS even.

They didn't ask my opinion. I just played the game.

They have Freedom of Choice. These are the consequences,









						All things Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)
					

Did we vastly over react? Or was the combo of lockdowns and  getting the majority of the population vaccinated simply effective at slowing the spread and reducing the severity of COVID once people did get it, making it look like not a big deal?     In internet chat rooms, depends on who you ask.  :)




					army.ca


----------



## QV

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1607378386338340867


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I don’t want to get into the debate, so much as point out the irony of David Zweig’s thread about Twitter censoring COVID 19 information…on Twitter…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

SeaKingTacco said:


> I don’t want to get into the debate, so much as point out the irony of David Zweig’s thread about Twitter censoring COVID 19 information…on Twitter…


Well, that's only because Elon Musk bought Twitter, fired most of the staff and is now releasing all the confidential company documentation about it to the media.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606852465751629825
What I think is even more interesting is how little people actually seem to care about this.  

Elon Musk released a number the other day that upwards of 33% of Twitter Accounts are fake and controlled by various foreign Government's and non-state organizations.  He's also brought in new workers and has begun a mass purge of suspected fake accounts.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Well, that's only because Elon Musk bought Twitter, fired most of the staff and is now releasing all the confidential company documentation about it to the media.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606852465751629825
> What I think is even more interesting is how little people actually seem to care about this.
> 
> Elon Musk released a number the other day that upwards of 33% of Twitter Accounts are fake and controlled by various foreign Government's and non-state organizations.  He's also brought in new workers and has begun a mass purge of suspected fake accounts.



People care, they just care in the wrong direction.


----------



## QV

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Well, that's only because Elon Musk bought Twitter, fired most of the staff and is now releasing all the confidential company documentation about it to the media.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1606852465751629825
> What I think is even more interesting is how little people actually seem to care about this.
> 
> Elon Musk released a number the other day that upwards of 33% of Twitter Accounts are fake and controlled by various foreign Government's and non-state organizations.  He's also brought in new workers and has begun a mass purge of suspected fake accounts.


Pretty crazy how this goes unnoticed. I don’t think very many MSM outlets are even talking about this.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

QV said:


> Pretty crazy how this goes unnoticed. I don’t think very many MSM outlets are even talking about this.


Could it be because lots of us have no freakin' clue what a Twitter/Tweet  is??


----------



## kratz

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Could it be because lots of us have no freakin' clue what a Twitter/Tweet  is??



I live in the area of Portapique, NS and am amazed at how all levels of government assume citizens are are Twitter (we are not) or the next social media platform (-3seconds).

In a real emergency, their fart will inform their tailwind.


----------



## QV

That explains a lot. You/they might consider joining the 21st century. Might be surprised what you’ll learn from a source other than the CBC.


----------



## dapaterson

By the 2st century, I assume you mean tools like the Amber Alert which is an information push tool, as opposed to social media sites which are a pull?


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> That explains a lot. You/they might consider joining the 21st century. Might be surprised what you’ll learn from a source other than the CBC.


There are not necessarily a lot of rural Nova Scotia types sitting up on Twitter overnight on a weekend. Twitter is a useful tool for disseminating non-emergency updates that people are actively looking for. It’s a profoundly shitty platform for making sure people know about a ‘right now’ emergency.

It’s sadly amusing seeing you try to lecture someone who lives in the area, and who experienced the event personally, about how he should have been consuming social media information from the local constabulary as his source of updates at the time. Maybe ask _him_ what _he_ thinks would have been effective? He may know more about emergencies in general, and his locale in particular, than you realize.


----------



## dimsum

brihard said:


> It’s sadly amusing seeing you try to lecture someone who lives in the area, and who experienced the event personally, about how he should have been co aiming social media information from the local constabulary as his source of updates at the time. Maybe ask _him_ what _he_ thinks would have been effective? He may know more about emergencies in general, and his locale in particular, than you realize.


Something something "local SME"


----------



## QV

Are we still talking about how Twitter/media suppressed factual information related to the pandemic to push a narrative or did you imagine I was thinking something else?


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> Are we still talking about how Twitter/media suppressed factual information related to the pandemic to push a narrative or did you imagine I was thinking something else?


Given the lack of any quoted repost in your reply, I mistakenly believed you were replying to the person directly above you.

I assure you I did not imagine you were thinking.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Lord love a duck!!

 U.S. to require negative COVID-19 test for travellers from China — but Canada not changing policy yet ​


----------



## QV

brihard said:


> Given the lack of any quoted repost in your reply, I mistakenly believed you were replying to the person directly above you.
> 
> I assure you I did not imagine you were thinking.



This post is a great example of the state of things today whether it's politics or the state of the CAF. A significant portion of folks who seem to be intelligent, but go on to either ignore or forgive gigantic scandals and malfeasance when its damaging to their world view. Then deflect with an insult.


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> This post is a great example of the state of things today whether it's politics or the state of the CAF. A significant portion of folks who seem to be intelligent, but go on to either ignore or forgive gigantic scandals and malfeasance when its damaging to their world view. Then deflect with an insult.


I’m well aware that you still consider Twitter’s content moderation practices to be a gigantic scandal. You’re free to stay hung up on that as long as you like.


----------



## Halifax Tar

QV said:


> This post is a great example of the state of things today whether it's politics or the state of the CAF. A significant portion of folks who seem to be intelligent, but go on to either ignore or forgive gigantic scandals and malfeasance when its damaging to their world view. Then deflect with an insult.



It's all about biases.  Reverse the rolls on the topic and the outrage switches as well. 

Some people are very happy with the state of things.  This is what they want.  Their biases will reflect as such.


----------



## Remius

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/anti-vaxx-nurse-libel-suit-ontario-1.6698686
		


Libel case dismissed and the plaintiffs will likely pay damages to the defendants.


----------



## winds_13

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/anti-vaxx-nurse-libel-suit-ontario-1.6698686
> 
> 
> 
> Libel case dismissed and the plaintiffs will likely pay damages to the defendants.


I find it interesting that the case was dismissed not because it was found to be baseless but because the plaintiffs were going after a small media outlet rather than their employer and larger media outlets like the CBC, who had done more harm... so they should be going after the big fish?

From the article:

Vermette cited the anti-SLAPP legislation, saying there were "significantly more important sources of harm" to the nurses' reputations that were "unrelated" to the publications, including: 


Professional misconduct investigations of all three nurses by the province's nursing regulator, the College of Nurses of Ontario (CNO).
The fact all three nurses were terminated from their respective jobs with cause.
Numerous media reports about the the nurses, including articles by what the court called "high-profile media organizations."


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## Remius

winds_13 said:


> I find it interesting that the case was dismissed not because it was found to be baseless but because the plaintiffs were going after a small media outlet rather than their employer and larger media outlets like the CBC, who had done more harm... so they should be going after the big fish?
> 
> From the article:
> 
> Vermette cited the anti-SLAPP legislation, saying there were "significantly more important sources of harm" to the nurses' reputations that were "unrelated" to the publications, including:
> 
> 
> Professional misconduct investigations of all three nurses by the province's nursing regulator, the College of Nurses of Ontario (CNO).
> The fact all three nurses were terminated from their respective jobs with cause.
> Numerous media reports about the the nurses, including articles by what the court called "high-profile media organizations."


Which leads to the question as to why they have not pursued the big fish…


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## Quirky

Retired AF Guy said:


> Lord love a duck!!
> 
> U.S. to require negative COVID-19 test for travellers from China — but Canada not changing policy yet​



It's clear that the US is racist, here in Canada we welcome everyone......


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## brihard

winds_13 said:


> I find it interesting that the case was dismissed not because it was found to be baseless but because the plaintiffs were going after a small media outlet rather than their employer and larger media outlets like the CBC, who had done more harm... so they should be going after the big fish?
> 
> From the article:
> 
> Vermette cited the anti-SLAPP legislation, saying there were "significantly more important sources of harm" to the nurses' reputations that were "unrelated" to the publications, including:
> 
> 
> Professional misconduct investigations of all three nurses by the province's nursing regulator, the College of Nurses of Ontario (CNO).
> The fact all three nurses were terminated from their respective jobs with cause.
> Numerous media reports about the the nurses, including articles by what the court called "high-profile media organizations."


The principle of anti-SLAPP is that the courts aren’t to be used as a method to silence critics by saddling them with legal costs and court processes.

We don’t have access to a written decision yet, but an anti-SLAPP dismissal will generally have to consider whether the case has merits on its face, so once there’s a decision to read I expect we’ll see that the case had no reasonable prospect of prevailing and that this informed the judge in dismissing it.

The original lawsuit was for defamation, and an absolute defense to defamation is truth. This may simply be three people who made conscious decisions, put themselves out there in the public sphere promoting their views, got news coverage, and are now deeply in the ‘find out’ phase.


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## ModlrMike

I think the real nail in the coffin was that the article they cited as defamatory didn't even name them. It used a much broader description of people who shared similar sentiments.


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## quadrapiper

Remius said:


> Which leads to the question as to why they have not pursued the big fish…


At a guess, because they figured the smaller outlet for an easy win, either for financial or ideological/tactical reasons.


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## brihard

ModlrMike said:


> I think the real nail in the coffin was that the article they cited as defamatory didn't even name them. It used a much broader description of people who shared similar sentiments.


A different article did: Quack Quack! These Pro-Virus Nurses Have Dangerous Ideas | ComoxValley.News

I don’t really see anything in there that’s actionable. There’s obviously a leavening of opinion, but built on a pretty solid factual foundation that would protect against defamation claims.

All three still have practice rights in Ontario, but none have been employed as nurses since 2021, and one has pending disciplinary hearings with the College in the spring.

There’s a small parade of nurses and doctors facing professional sanctions for various professional misconduct related to their theories about COVID, the pandemic, vaccines etc. thus far they aren’t faring well in professional colleges, administrative tribunals, or judicial review. They also tend not to have very good lawyers. It’s almost like good lawyers are reluctant to bring very questionable legal actions.


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## quadrapiper

brihard said:


> There are not necessarily a lot of rural Nova Scotia types sitting up on Twitter overnight on a weekend. Twitter is a useful tool for disseminating non-emergency updates that people are actively looking for. It’s a profoundly shitty platform for making sure people know about a ‘right now’ emergency.


It has become*, on the mobile side, even more unsuitable for checking up on real-time posts with, on the feed side of things, a swing towards not reliably showing chronological posts even when set to do so**, and less than stellar push notifications. It would appear that the most feasible way to use Twitter to get real-time alerts would be to run an additional account only following emergency, road, etc. accounts and setting all of them to notify on all Tweets.

*This is, of course, before Musk got at it and started playing around.
**These are accounts you're already following, so, to fend off the trolls, _not _particularly subject to ideological filtering.


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## Navy_Pete

Hard to have credibility talking about health science if you don't believe in viruses at all (not just COVID, all of them), and think rabies is caused by malnourishment. Seems like a pretty dangerous mix of mixed up Christianity and new age holistic healing garbage all being twisted together.

Hopefully they lose their licences but they will still have their own echo chamber support.

Organizer of B.C. hospital protests, Kristen Nagle, recently claimed that you can't catch a virus


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## Fishbone Jones




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## OldSolduer

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Could it be because lots of us have no freakin' clue what a Twitter/Tweet  is??


Twitter is the most ridiculous platform out there.


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## Halifax Tar

OldSolduer said:


> Twitter is the most ridiculous platform out there.



We were better off before social media.


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## mariomike

Halifax Tar said:


> We were better off before social media.



Some might miss posting their political memes.


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## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> We were better off before social media.


Things started to head off the rails once we surpassed 1200baud….  😆


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## Halifax Tar

Good2Golf said:


> Things started to head off the rails once we surpassed 1200baud….  😆



At least with my 36.6 I had to time it between phone calls and ask permission.


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## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> At least with my 36.6 I had to time it between phone calls and ask permission.


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## Brad Sallows

Nothing wrong with social media.  You can always choose which table to stand at.


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## mariomike

Brad Sallows said:


> Nothing wrong with social media.  You can always choose which table to stand at.



I signed up after I retired, so take it as entertainment.

When I want non-fiction, I use my library card.


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## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:


> Some might miss posting their political memes.


Some might miss posting links with no commentary or trying to find an opening to insert anecdotes, everywhere, of their previous occupation. In the end, the user decides what they want to read and what they consider humour.

As a poster, that uses memes, I'm unconcerned about people's lack of a funny bone or sense of humour. If they wish to take umbrage, about a picture on the internet and ruin their own day over it, I'm not stopping them. Hmm, I wonder if I can find a meme....🙃


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## Fishbone Jones

Miss you old friend.


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## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Miss you old friend.


I can’t remember my first phone number, but by God I can remember the exact dial of my first dial up modem, and all the specific static that followed…


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## lenaitch

brihard said:


> I can’t remember my first phone number, but by God I can remember the exact dial of my first dial up modem, and all the specific static that followed…


I can remember the phone number of the house I grew up in and some detachments I haven't served in 40 years.  Thanks to memory dialing, if I had to call our daughter or my brother from somebody else's phone, I'd be screwed.


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## Good2Golf

lenaitch said:


> I can remember the phone number of the house I grew up in and some detachments I haven't served in 40 years.  Thanks to memory dialing, if I had to call our daughter or my brother from somebody else's phone, I'd be screwed.


I remember my childhood home phone number because it had lots of 8s, 9s and 0s…


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## lenaitch

Good2Golf said:


> I remember my childhood home phone number because it had lots of 8s, 9s and 0s…


I remember reading an article  a longtime ago about how the brain sorts letters and numbers making certain combinations easier to recall.  It can be trained.  One detachment I was at had a lot of 2-lane highway work and I got to the point that I could grab the licence number of an oncoming car with pretty good accuracy (for rolling CPIC queries) - almost like a mental snapshot but it was fleeting, I had to write it down immediately.  After I left the road, Ontario went to 7-figure plates and it blew the technique all to hell.


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## GK .Dundas

Fishbone Jones said:


> Miss you old friend.


Ahh ! The mating cry of the modem. 
Remember it well.


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## dapaterson




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## daftandbarmy

Uh oh....


Coronavirus found in samples from 96% of flights​ 

If you believe it's now safe to fly without a protective mask, you might want to think again. New research shows the COVID-19 virus has been found on nearly every flight tested.

Scientists who analyzed wastewater samples taken from 29 flights in Kuala Lumpur have found the coronavirus in 28 of them, according to the National Public Health Laboratory Malaysia. Testing on the 29th sample has not yet been completed, per the laboratory.










						Coronavirus found in samples from 96% of flights
					

If you believe it’s now safe to fly without a protective mask, you might want to think again. New research shows the COVID-19 virus has been found on nearly every flight.




					www.audacy.com


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## Quirky




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## suffolkowner

It might take a few more years to sort out before before it becomes more like the current endemic level influenza. The virus is proving itself to be rather good at evading immune response.


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## Jarnhamar

suffolkowner said:


> It might take a few more years to sort out before before it becomes more like the current endemic level influenza.* The virus is proving itself to be rather good at evading immune response.*


Like it was engineered to do so?

🤯


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## Booter

Jarnhamar said:


> Like it was engineered to do so?
> 
> 🤯


So say it was engineered. What in practicality would that change? Does that matter? If it was China- no one is going to hold them to account. So like…does it matter where it came from? 

I flicked through cbc after some pina coladas and I think we just deserve a gargantuan asteroid.


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## Fishbone Jones




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## Bruce Monkhouse

Wait!?  I think he forgot one.

Reposting Internet meme's is not science.


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## Fishbone Jones

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Wait!?  I think he forgot one.
> 
> Reposting Internet meme's is not science.


I didn't forget anything. You can't repost a meme *without* science. That is just fact. Are you a Luddite?  It might explain why you don't  understand technology. It's kinda like pinball machines, but about a century more advanced.


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## SeaKingTacco

Fishbone Jones said:


> I didn't forget anything. You can't repost a meme *without* science. That is just fact. Are you a Luddite?  It might explain why you don't  understand technology. It's kinda like pinball machines, but about a century more advanced.


Okay- that is pretty funny, you have to admit.


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## Jarnhamar

Booter said:


> So say it was engineered. What in practicality would that change? Does that matter? If it was China- no one is going to hold them to account. So like…does it matter where it came from?


To quote Ralph Wiggum: _Lies are like stars, they always come out [I have 5 face holes]._

What practicality would that change and does that matter, salient questions. 

If it was actually engineered and that truth came to light it may do more harm than good. I agree 100% no one would hold China accountable. They would probably continue to deny it to their dying breath and it may make them more aggressive on the world stage (to shift attention away etc).

North American and European governmental opposition (political parties) would capitalize on it and, along with citizens, demand the government do something about China causing said plague. That would put them in a precarious position.


Maybe it's a big nothing burger in terms of conspiracies, or maybe Covid 2026 will see only people with only certain genetic markers dying.



Booter said:


> I flicked through cbc after some pina coladas and I think we just deserve a gargantuan asteroid.


I couldn't handle all the new TikTok dances leading up to that.


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## QV

I suppose you could hold those accountable who funded gain of function research in China, probably to get around restrictions…


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## Fishbone Jones

QV said:


> I suppose you could hold those accountable who funded gain of function research in China, probably to get around restrictions…


How do you hold them accountable when the government is their proxy? How much accountability has Obama/ Biden, or trudeau for that matter, shown over the last decade? Pretty well zero, I'd say. If it furthers their agenda, nobody is accountable. Unless proven factually wrong and society demands action, then the higher ups will keep their hands clean and throw them under the bus. Otherwise they're  protected.


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## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> How do you hold them accountable when the government is their proxy? How much accountability has Obama/ Biden, or trudeau for that matter, shown over the last decade? Pretty well zero, I'd say. If it furthers their agenda, nobody is accountable. Unless proven factually wrong and society demands action, then the higher ups will keep their hands clean and throw them under the bus. Otherwise they're  protected.



In a crisis of accountability, you repudiate the behaviour through the electoral system next time an election comes around, and vote the bums out in favour of a preferred option. America just went through this. That’s the ultimate accountability mechanism in societies with democratically elected representative governments.

This requires a mature and objective opposition that can offer the ‘moderate middle’ (to borrow from another thread, with hat tip to @Edward Campbell ) a viable alternative. We still have work to do there. Hopefully our opposition rises to the task by the time of the next election.


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## suffolkowner

The gain of function thing is nothing new or isolated or restricted to China. Decades ago in another life I had an aquaintance that worked with trypanosomes and the casual nature with which they handled things was deeply disturbing to me. Some scientists  and what have you will always push to see what happens.


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## Booter

”choose which liar you want from a buffet of liars. If you don’t like the liar this time- next time choose the other liar”- the system.


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## Quirky

brihard said:


> In a crisis of accountability, you repudiate the behaviour through the electoral system next time an election comes around, and vote the bums out in favour of a preferred option



Re-election and continuing support of the NDP/LPC Trudeau Singh government just shows how little credibility and morality Canadians have, especially in central and eastern Canada. Heads in the sand.


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## brihard

Quirky said:


> Re-election and continuing support of the NDP/LPC Trudeau Singh government just shows how little credibility and morality Canadians have, especially in central and eastern Canada. Heads in the sand.


Or, alternatively, that our most viable alternative remains too inwardly focused, and has yet to succesfully calibrate its proposed policies and other approaches to the reality of what Canadians want and are willing to accept. _Not liking_ results doesn’t make them illegitimate; something a lot of people seem to REALLY struggle with on both sides of the border.


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## Brad Sallows

Never ascribe to deep thinking or morality or credibility what can be explained by gifts (one way or another) of money.


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## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> Or, alternatively, that our most viable alternative remains too inwardly focused, and has yet to succesfully calibrate its proposed policies and other approaches to the reality of what Canadians want and are willing to accept. _Not liking_ results doesn’t make them illegitimate; something a lot of people seem to REALLY struggle with on both sides of the border.



To me its simple entrenchment in political biases.  

We have let the media (Social and Legacy) paint the other as some sort of evil; treasonous hive mind, ands its dangerous.  And our different political leaders have bought into it or have been bought by it.

Maybe we should have to go through some sort of exam on the different political polices put forth at election time before we are allowed to cast a vote ?  Not as a way to block out voters, but to educate and inform before one makes their mark. 

_"I have met the enemy; and it is the media"
Halifax Tar ~ Jan '23_


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## Jarnhamar

QV said:


> I suppose you could hold those accountable who funded gain of function research in China, probably to get around restrictions…


No one will hold anyone accountable though. A hell of a lot of Canadian companies benefited from Covid. From big corporations accepting emergency money (while reporting record profits- Loblaws) to all these mysterious little companies and research groups and who knows what where billions of tax dollars disappeared into.

$4.6B was claimed by ineligible recipients. I wonder if most Canadains understand how much that really is. If $1 represented 1 minute that's 8752 years. That's nuts. The government is going to get that back, right?


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## Fishbone Jones

Halifax Tar said:


> To me its simple entrenchment in political biases.
> 
> We have let the media (Social and Legacy) paint the other as some sort of evil; treasonous hive mind, ands its dangerous.  And our different political leaders have bought into it or have been bought by it.
> 
> Maybe we should have to go through some sort of exam on the different political polices put forth at election time before we are allowed to cast a vote ?  Not as a way to block out voters, but to educate and inform before one makes their mark.
> 
> _"I have met the enemy; and it is the media"
> Halifax Tar ~ Jan '23_


What if it was caused by those politicians using the media as their tool?


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## Quirky

brihard said:


> Or, alternatively, that our most viable alternative remains too inwardly focused, and has yet to succesfully calibrate its proposed policies and other approaches to the reality of what Canadians want and are willing to accept. _Not liking_ results doesn’t make them illegitimate; something a lot of people seem to REALLY struggle with on both sides of the border.



You’re right, let’s keep the status quo because the alternatives don’t have answers to clean up the mess that current gov created. Solid logic. Keep the same clowns in the circus.


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## brihard

Quirky said:


> You’re right, let’s keep the status quo because the alternatives don’t have answers to clean up the mess that current gov created. Solid logic. Keep the same clowns in the circus.


Now quote my prior reply where I say I hope they do.

Besides, unless the constitutional system is discarded and replaced (which is obviously a dangerously stupid idea), we’re constrained by a prescribed system for peacefully and democratically choosing who represents us and forms government. If we don’t like the outputs, then we collectively need to work towards better inputs.


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## Quirky

brihard said:


> Now quote my prior reply where I say I hope they do.



At this point I don’t care what the alternative policies to LPC/NDP are, it can’t be any worse.


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## suffolkowner

Quirky said:


> At this point I don’t care what the alternative policies to LPC/NDP are, it can’t be any worse.


things can always be worse


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## brihard

Quirky said:


> At this point I don’t care what the alternative policies to LPC/NDP are, it can’t be any worse.


Ok, so let’s take that at face value- presumably then you’d be happy to see the CPC reach more towards the centre to attract the necessary votes in Ontario and Quebec, at the expense of some of their surplus popularity in the prairies?

Right now they seem to be banking on a not-deep-enough well of pure discontentment with the current government, and coasting on populist sentiment that clearly just isn’t enough to do the trick. They will form opposition from the wing; government forms towards the political center.


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## Remius

Quirky said:


> At this point I don’t care what the alternative policies to LPC/NDP are, it can’t be any worse.


It’s likely many Canadians feel the same way about the Conservatives.  They may not like what they have now but they feel it would be worse under them.  Can the CPC and PP convince them otherwise?


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## QV

suffolkowner said:


> things can always be worse


But in this case it’s not. In fact the only thing worse than a Trudeau term, is another Trudeau term.


----------

