# Discussion Regarding CFRCs



## SupersonicMax (14 Aug 2009)

Sorry for the slight highjack, mods, move or split if too much out of line.  I did not feel it warranted an other thread.

Otis,

You guys make a good job, but often, I feel like recruiters seems to give wrong information to potential candidates.

I was at the Abbotsford Airshow last week end and I cannot recall how many people came to me to talk about being a Pilot in the military and the lifestyle associated.  After a while, lots asked me how I joined, so I explained the whole ROTP thing, ASC, pilot training, etc.  Many, if not all of these guys/gals told me that the recruiting center kiosk told them that since the pilot trade was closed, they should join as infantry/ATC/AERE and re-muster to pilot once they are in, telling them it's "really easy to do".  I have been in the CF long enough to know that it isn't the case.  I obviously discouraged them from doing so.  I am not saying it was done on purpose, but eighter way, it certainly misdirected these guys/gals. 

Anyways, that was my rant.

Max


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## Otis (14 Aug 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sorry for the slight highjack, mods, move or split if too much out of line.  I did not feel it warranted an other thread.
> 
> Otis,
> 
> ...



Woah woah woah!! Those are some SERIOUS accusations! PM sent!


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## gcclarke (15 Aug 2009)

Why do I have a feeling this is a serious case of people hearing what they want to hear.


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## PuckChaser (15 Aug 2009)

Instead of telling them that an OT is almost impossible and probably losing a recruit, perhaps you could have told them that the Pilot trade is closed, but they should look at the recruiting site and find something else that is interesting? Or engage them in conversation to find out a brief background and mention a few trades they might want to research? Every member of the CF is an ambassador, it takes 30 seconds to steer someone on the path that they very well may love for the next 25 years. Maybe the reason they wanted to be a pilot was that it sounded cool, or they watched Top Gun last night?


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## CallOfDuty (15 Aug 2009)

You know Max..I agree with you to a certain extent.  But I know in my case, as well in the case of lots of guys I know,  that at the recruiting centre, as an applicant, all I wanted to do was get IN.  I chose the wrong trade for me starting off, and honestly I didn't pay as much attention to what the recruiter was saying about the trade, and what things would actually be like after basic training.  I just wanted IN.
  When I was on my 3's course I met tons of guys who had no idea what they were getting into.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't the recruiters fault all those times. 
    I think what they should do is have reps for the army, navy and airforce, and when someone comes in and wants to know what life is like in an operational air squadron, they would be directed to an airforce recruiter.  Likewise someone who knows what the army is really like can help people who want that.  Unless they do that already??
Cheers guys


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## Steve_D (15 Aug 2009)

If someone wants 'IN" bad enough, I would think that hey would do more research about it and not rely on only one avenue (recruiters).  The CF has a great website with lot's of information about the various trades. Google is our friend. There are lots of sites with information (this one, for example). They could also take come initiative and go down to the base or reserve unit and ask questions.  Members of the military are always willing to talk to people about their life in the military. As Puckchaser stated, they are all ambassadors.  I know that before I have applied to any job (and sad to say, there has been a lot of them), I always research it for as much information as possible so that I have a better idea of what I am getting into.  I don't believe that (and correct me if I am wrong) the CF wants people who need their hands held and spoon fed, but those who can show some initiative on their own.

Sorry for the rant, just my  :2c:

Steve


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## SupersonicMax (15 Aug 2009)

Steve_D said:
			
		

> If someone wants 'IN" bad enough, I would think that hey would do more research about it and not rely on only one avenue (recruiters).  The CF has a great website with lot's of information about the various trades. Google is our friend. There are lots of sites with information (this one, for example). They could also take come initiative and go down to the base or reserve unit and ask questions.  Members of the military are always willing to talk to people about their life in the military. As Puckchaser stated, they are all ambassadors.  I know that before I have applied to any job (and sad to say, there has been a lot of them), I always research it for as much information as possible so that I have a better idea of what I am getting into.  I don't believe that (and correct me if I am wrong) the CF wants people who need their hands held and spoon fed, but those who can show some initiative on their own.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, just my  :2c:
> 
> Steve



I agree with you, but, having said that, it CAN be intimidating (even though we're all open to talk about our jobs!) for someone to come up to us (non-recruiters) and ask questions.  Most of the time, if I do not engage in a conversation with someone he won't tell me his story.  When I go to Airshows, I try to interact with the public as much as I can and pass on my passion to them.

Lots of these people (1 kid in particular), obviously researched the trade and the different entry programs, but were lead to believe that joining as something else and transferring to pilot once they were in was the way to go. If it was 1 or 2 guys/gals over the week end, I would not post this.  However, when it's 10-15 people that come up to me (and that's just me, there were many other CF pilots around) with a very similar story is where I start thinking that some misinformation was happenning.

As for the Top Gun comment, well this is how it all started for me, so I don't see anything wrong with a kid that thinks it's cool and wants to do that.  Obviously, the job is actually much different (it's more than beach volleyball, briefing with Kelly McGillis and flying), but the flying is still cool!


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## Steve_D (15 Aug 2009)

You are absolutely correct that, unfortunatley, there is sometimes misinformation and that is a sad thing and can be very upsetting to those who join thinking one thing, only to find out that it was not correct.

Maybe putting a caveat on statements could be a good idea. "Currently it is easy to change, but be aware that how things are today can change in the future."

What do you think?

Steve


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## Michael OLeary (15 Aug 2009)

In some cases, there could also be a conflict between the applicants "dream" and their realistic likelihood of being successful in their preferred trade.  How many have gotten the message "you can transfer later" from an exasperated Recruiter who finally made them realize that the _getting in_ part was really only possible in another trade, but the candidate kept asking "can I transfer later once I'm in."  Some people, whether applicants for military service or not, do have unreasonable expectations and beliefs that they can be anything they want to, as long as they're willing to try hard enough.  Unfortunately, reality doesn't work that way.  

While the system may let every applicant apply for any trade they meet the basic requirements for, that doesn't always mean that applicants really grasp their realistic chances of success in any given trade.  Some won't get it until they fail to meet a requirement in the recruiting process.  (And some of those will then appear here trying to claim how their eyesight should not prevent them from being a pilot, or their asthma from being an infantry soldier.)


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## CallOfDuty (15 Aug 2009)

Steve_D......you are absolutely correct, there is no reason that people can't research their trade interests and whether they will be a good fit for it or not.  I'm doing that myself in my process to try to become an AES OP.  Researching, talking to AESOPs, getting a famil flight etc etc....
   But, do you know how many people roll into a recruiting centre who are looking for employment, who have no idea what they really want to do.....who barely even knew that Canada had a navy...or who have never heard of ARMY.CA, let alone know anyone in the military to talk to?  I know a guy who travelled 8 hours to get to a recruiting center from a farm out in Buttf%^k nowhere, and when they asked him what he wanted to do, he said " well, I don't have a drivers liscence, but I'd love to learn to drive!".   They made him a trucker.  
Anyhow...take from that what you will.
Cheers
PS---do you know how many guys are in the infantry because they thought the movie Band of Brothers was `` so cool``!  Not because they did any real research.


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## Larkvall (15 Aug 2009)

I get the impression that the Toronto Recruiting Centre is a wild and whacky place to work. They could easily base a sitcom on it.

I remember when I went for my PT test. The person on the desk explained where to go and then he looked me straight in the eye and told me....

"Go see 'The Civilian'."

I was thinking "Oh no, I have to see 'The Civilian'!".


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## Otis (15 Aug 2009)

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> I think what they should do is have reps for the army, navy and airforce, and when someone comes in and wants to know what life is like in an operational air squadron, they would be directed to an airforce recruiter.  Likewise someone who knows what the army is really like can help people who want that.  Unless they do that already??
> Cheers guys



We do have multiple elements of multiple trades, and if someone is available who knows more about a trade / element we will try to have that person have at least a chat with the applicant. But applicants have to be responsible enough to go look at the videos and things themselves as well ...


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## Robodad (18 Aug 2009)

"I feel like recruiters are WAY out of line and sometimes are blatantly lying to potential candidates, in order to get them in."

I worked at a recruiting office waaaaay back in the early 80s.  NEVER lie!!!!! It'll only bite you in the rear later on. We always told the truth.

The fact of the matter is that every Recruiting Centre/Detachment get quotas of what trades are required (example - 2 Supply Technicians, 14 Infantry, 6 Administrative Clerks...) and a limited time to get them filled (think back in the 80s now).  Infantry was always required.  Fire Fighter was never required (not in the 80s), so we informed the applicants who wanted Fire Fighter that an option could be to enrol as Infantry and then ask for a voluntary transfer.

As for applying as a Pilot.....welll, there was a huge waiting list at the time....


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## BlueJingo (23 Aug 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> I get the impression that the Toronto Recruiting Centre is a wild and whacky place to work. They could easily base a sitcom on it.



What is with everyone saying that Toronto is Wild? They are at best Slightly off Balance LOL (Just kidding Otis)  



			
				Robodad said:
			
		

> I worked at a recruiting office waaaaay back in the early 80s.  NEVER lie!!!!! It'll only bite you in the rear later on. We always told the truth.



 :nod:

I believe that people have a slightly skewed opinion of the RC's they always assume they are like the US where they have a quota and they do *anything *to fill it. 
Yeah, we have quotas too... but I like to think of it as a round peg round hole technique. _[If we see that a person has certain qualifications or abilities they can be presented with other options, most the time applicant's don't even know all the trade options avail]_ but by no means to we force their hand. 
I've worked at the RC for just under 4 yrs and I don't think i've seen anybody outright LIE to an applicant. And if information was mislead (by mistake) there have been recruiters follow up to correct their errors.


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## medaid (23 Aug 2009)

I worked at the Abbotsford Airshow for 2 years and while I was there I always tried to match the public up with the the element and MOC they are seeking. 

However, I also balance and see what is actually the best use of the recruiter (mine) or the soldier/sailor/airperson's time. If a kid that's 14 tells me that he wants to join as a Pilot when he grows up (I got about 50 of those a day), I'd look at them and give them the relative information, and then ask if they liked to do anything else? Camping? Hiking? So on and so forth. If they did, I suggested that they joined the Cadet movement and when they're 16 join the PRes in an MOC that interested them.

I'm not going to send that 14 yrs old kid to go and see the over worked and over hassled pilot I have on duty with me. Why? Because he's already overworked by answering the same stupid answers from the same stupid wannabes. We (recruiters) pretty much all know that out of approximately 20 people who asks questions, roughly 10 of them are posers or fakers that are there just to look cool and ask questions. 4 of them have some inkling of what the CF does, but once confronted with what we actually do, they flake off. 3 of them are there because they think its what they want to do, and will probably take an application form and try to fill it out. After looking at the thing they'll flake off too. Only 3 will actually attempt to join, but only 2 will actually make it towards the end. 

That is a broad over generalization, however, from my experiences that's pretty much how it went. I was a unit recruiter, but when I'm out at public events I am also recruiting for the CF. I have no problems sending a guy who wants to join the NAVY over to the MS who's manning the naval display and vice versa. 

Mistakes happen... but sometimes information are purposefully passed on the way it was because we know what's realistic and what isn't. Think back to those 10-15 guys and gals you got. Did you REALLY think that all of them would make it? That all of them would join? That all of them would be worth the time and effort? 

You only see a SMALL portion, while the rest of us see the WHOLE group. Time is money... especially in the recruiting world.


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## dustinm (23 Aug 2009)

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> But, do you know how many people roll into a recruiting centre who are looking for employment, who have no idea what they really want to do.....who barely even knew that Canada had a navy...or who have never heard of ARMY.CA, let alone know anyone in the military to talk to?  I know a guy who travelled 8 hours to get to a recruiting center from a farm out in Buttf%^k nowhere, and when they asked him what he wanted to do, he said " well, I don't have a drivers liscence, but I'd love to learn to drive!".   They made him a trucker.
> Anyhow...take from that what you will.



While I'm a civilian, I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that everyone has heard of Army.ca, knows someone in the military well enough to discuss their career aspirations or has more than a fleeting idea of what they'd like to do before they see someone at a pavillion or talk to a recruiter (assuming the two aren't one and the same.)

I'd venture to guess that most people aren't aware of many military occupations, so knowing they want to "work with electronics" or "on a ship" might be as narrow as they can get before someone tells them about Naval Communicator or LCIS Tech, or what have you.


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## Otis (23 Aug 2009)

As a Recruiter, I'm perfectly comfortable when someone walks in and says, "I want to work with electronics" or, "I want to work on a ship" ... what I can't stand is:

 "I wanna be in the Army." 

Well, what do you want to do? 

"I want to be in the Army" OK ... what do you actually like to do? 

"I dunno. I just want to be in the Army!"

Do you walk in to IBM and say, "I want a job." No, you figure out what jobs they have and you apply.


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## Robodad (25 Aug 2009)

Otis said:
			
		

> As a Recruiter, I'm perfectly comfortable when someone walks in and says, "I want to work with electronics" or, "I want to work on a ship" ... what I can't stand is:
> 
> "I wanna be in the Army."
> 
> ...



I once had someone who wanted Air Force...just Air Force, but wanted nothing to do with planes (afraid of flying)


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## BlueJingo (25 Aug 2009)

Robodad said:
			
		

> I once had someone who wanted Air Force...just Air Force, but wanted nothing to do with planes (afraid of flying)



Did he end up picking a trade? lol


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## Robodad (25 Aug 2009)

Nah, she was too young to enrol without her parent's permission.  Her father was with her and we convinced her to finish high school.
(the father was impressed with the career opportunities, though)


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## dustinm (25 Aug 2009)

Robodad said:
			
		

> I once had someone who wanted Air Force...just Air Force, but wanted nothing to do with planes (afraid of flying)



Interesting, I met a girl while writing my CFAT in the same predicament, though several years older. I believe she choose Sup Tech in the end, though she wasn't happy about it.


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## FDO (25 Aug 2009)

First of all I take real offence to being called a liar. The one thing that is drilled into our heads is "right person for the job" If you come in and you have a 51% average in math and science we are NOT going to suggest a trade heavy in those subjects. If you want to be a Pilot we tell you realistically that it is a VERY competitive occupation and we have no openings so far this year. However ROTP is an option if you qualify. We had one person come in and want to be a "plane driver"! Think we accepted her as a Pilot? When I get a prospect ask me about a trade I don't know much about I'll get someone in the centre to talk to them about it. We tell them to look on line at www.forces.ca and we put them on the computer in the lobby to look at the trades. If we can clearly see that they are looking for a trade they are not going to do well in we try to point out options. I can tell you right now that if  caught one of our recruiters lying or giving anyone false info he/she would be in front of the Commanding Officer so fast they'd wonder what happened. I tell people that "remusters" are POSSIBLE but not guaranteed. I tell them I've had friends remuster in several months and I've had friends who tried for 20 years to remuster and retired being unsuccessful.

 Most people hear what they want to hear. I have talked with prospects and told them what I could or gave them options that may suit them and had them come back a couple of days later and talked to me again and had the info so screwed up that it wasn't funny.

Bottom line is we don't lie we don't try to "top up short trades" we try to give realistic expectations. An applicant that has not finished high school will not be a rocket scientist.


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## BlueJingo (26 Aug 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> An applicant that has not finished high school will not be a rocket scientist.



Unless he's an infmn with an M72... lol


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## shaunlin (29 Aug 2009)

While I commend FDO on his stand up attitude I don't think he can speak for all the centers.  Although I do believe that there are a great number of recruiters who have the best interest of an applicant at heart, I also know that there are many recruiters that do stretch facts and manipulate the "real" truth about certain trades and this is where a great number of our "Premature" releases come from. I believe that if you are serious about joining, pick a trade off the website that you are interested in and then try to talk to people that are in that job.  Yes I know that this is not always an option for people that don't live near any military establishments  but it is the best info you will ever get.  I think that applicants must do everything they can to investigate a trade but I do worry about the ignorant that have no experience with the military who are manipulated by those not so caring recruiters.  I too was one of the ignorant manipulated by misinformation and misdirection of a recruiter and am still trying to get out of the AC OP trade years later.  No matter what anyone say though our recruiters are still leagues more honest and professional than our American counterparts.


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