# Wearing non-issue boots



## MEDIC1523 (14 Feb 2007)

Hey Guys,

Just a quick question for ya. I have flat feet from the regular issue combat boots. I would go to MIR and get the "gucci" bates boots but the problem is I can't stand them. So I was wondering if I bought some Danners, how would I get a medical chit to wear them  or should I just say fuck it and wear them anyways.

Regards,

Andrew


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## old medic (14 Feb 2007)

Curious... how long have you been wearing the regular boots ?



> I have flat feet from the regular issue combat boots.



Is that a complaint, or was that actually diagnosed ?


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## Blackadder1916 (14 Feb 2007)

Like Old Medic, your claim has piqued my curiousity as well, especially after noting your age (and experience) from your profile.  If anything, I would have suspected that your issued Mk III's (if properly fitted) would provide adequate arch support to anyone with a "normal" arch.  Back in the day, we didn't see many flatfoots (other than when we got in trouble at a local watering hole), since severe flat feet (IIRC) was generally cause for rejection at the enrolment medical.  Have you considered the possibly that:
a.  you may have had flat feet before joining, or 
b.  your boots don't fit properly. (If they don't, then take what actions you need to be *issued properly fitting footwear*)

If you do have flat feet and they are causing you problems, then you should seek appropriate medical advice.

There is a lot of info out there about the causes of flat feet. i.e  http://www.bofss.org.uk/html/flat_feet.shtml

But it is possible to develop flat feet later in life.   http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/flatfeet/DS00449/DSECTION=3


> Arches can also fall over time. Years of wear and tear can weaken the posterior tibial tendon..... Once the tendon is damaged the foot's arch loses support and can flatten.
> 
> You may lose support in your arches due to:
> - Ongoing stresses in your feet. One of these stresses may be long-term wearing of high heels…(are you wearing high heels?)
> ...



If you are having foot pain you should determine if the cause is flat feet. The following tests can help you determine your arch type: http://seniorhealth.about.com/od/footconditions/a/flat_feet.htm


> Footprint Test
> When you get out of a swimming pool, look at your footprint on the concrete. The front of the foot will be joined to the heel by a strip. If your foot is flat, then the strip is the same width as the front of the foot, creating a footprint that looks like a stretched out pancake ("flat as a pancake"). With a normal arch, the strip is about half the width of the front of the foot. If you have a high arch, only a thin strip connects the front of the foot with the heel. Both footprints should be the same. (_you don't need a pool, just put your foot in water and stand on a piece of paper_)
> Shoe evaluation
> Put your shoes on a flat table and view them at eye level from behind. See if the sole is worn evenly. A flat foot will cause more wear on the inside of the sole, especially in the heel area. The shoe will easily rock side to side. A flat foot will also cause the upper part of the shoe to lean inward over the sole. Both shoes should wear about the same way.


To add an interesting (to me anyway) anecdote to this discussion.  Years ago, probably in the mid to late 80's, there was an increasing number of foot related medical complaints occurring among trainees at basic training facilities.  It was determined that the cause of this was that the young soldiers (sailors and airmen) had mostly worn athletic shoes (runners, sneakers) until they reported for basic, where they received the first pair of stiff, leather footwear they had ever worn, "army boots".


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## elder medic (7 Mar 2007)

From the perspective of more than half a lifetime away, I can say frankly, I have had large, flat feet all my life which have NEVER bothered me. When Iwas a kid in the 40s, I had custom built shoes with arch supports in them, and they were terrible comfort-wise.  When I went into the Corps in 1950, all I could get was a 12 EEEEE. "Just let your feet spread, son" said the QM.  After jump training I  and others bought  US jump boots, and  were never allowed to wear them. But I learned to persevere and spent much time on the parade square on every course I went on, as well as a lot of instructional time on the square, along with route matches from Borden to Barrie return, and run/walk jaunts from Rivers to Brandon, all without problems or discomfort. Lucky I guess.  Now 76, I can honestly say that I am fortunate in not  having any foot problems at all, unless my present hiking boots may be a little tight, depends which pair I wear. 14s are readily available if willing to pay $200 plus, but they fit. In Oakville in 58 and 59 I had "local purchase" oxfords, cheap, but they fitted, Being Command HQ no one wore boots. My present 'dress' shoes are at least 30 yrs old and fit like old socks having been rebuilt several times.
If you can get away with different boots, more power to you, but first, for heaven's sake, go see the MO. That's what he/she's paid for, unless that too has changed?


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## PMedMoe (9 Mar 2007)

Well said, elder medic!!


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## medicineman (10 Mar 2007)

I'd say two things - first is check out your motto - perhaps live by it.  Secondly, since you're banned, doesn't much matter what we say anyway  .

On that note, if I had a dime for every person that came in whose tootsies were a little sore "from their boots", I'd be able to buy my own PA school, nay, my own Medical school (ergo my own degree too).  For others out there hoping for an answer, if you show up at work with non-issue footwear and no chit, count on your RSM likely having a little one way chat with you.  If you have the old MKIII's and can't change them in for new ones, take about $60.00 of that money the tax payers and Her Majesty gave you and instead of spending it on something you probably didn't need, go to a cobbler and have some Vibram soles put on them.  Unless things have changed, and Vern can correct me if I'm out of date on this (I am one of the least perfect people on this board), CF Supply Orders permit and in fact encourage you to resole your boots instead of trading them in every time the soles are worn down.  I do too - better to have broken in boots when you really need them than blisters and macerated feet when you really don't need those.

MM


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## armyvern (10 Mar 2007)

No correction necessary.


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## medicineman (10 Mar 2007)

Thanks Vern - was fairly sure I wasn't going senile.  Yet.

MM


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2007)

Good point, medicineman.  Some units also require you to have the chit to wear the vibram soles as well but it's not an issue to get one from the MO.  
I think that there are so many different boots on the feet of soldiers now that (some) RSMs wouldn't even bother to ask for the chit.


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## armyvern (10 Mar 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Good point, medicineman. Some units also require you to have the chit to wear the vibram soles as well  *but it's not an issue to get one from the MO.  * I think that there are so many different boots on the feet of soldiers now that (some) RSMs wouldn't even bother to ask for the chit.


That's part of the problem. The member is supposed to have an actual valid medical reason for requiring those soles, thus being issued the chit. They are NOT supposed to be handed out like candy as they are at some Units.

That ensures that soldiers who actually DO have foot problems get the treatment and physio etc they require to heal and soldier on. When the chits are just handed out _whenever to whomever_ comes asking, the troops with actual problems get missed, and it's their feet who suffer worse for it in the end.

Check your CFMO's; the requirements for testing etc in order to be issued that chit are in there.

The people with NO foot problems can re-sole their boots at their own expense NOT via a chit, that keeps an already overwhelmed medical staff...actually dealing with medical issues just like they should be. It's like going to the Hospital emergency room with a cold.


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## I_am_John_Galt (10 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> That's part of the problem. The member is supposed to have an actual valid medical reason for requiring those soles, thus being issued the chit. They are NOT supposed to be handed out like candy as they are at some Units.
> 
> That ensures that soldiers who actually DO have foot problems get the treatment and physio etc they require to heal and soldier on. When the chits are just handed out _whenever to whomever_ comes asking, the troops with actual problems get missed, and it's their feet who suffer worse for it in the end.
> 
> ...



I am not a medical professional, but I do know more about footwear than your average bear: in the case of resoling MkIII's the old maxim about an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure definitely applies.


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> The people with NO foot problems can re-sole their boots at their own expense NOT via a chit, that keeps an already overwhelmed medical staff...actually dealing with medical issues just like they should be. It's like going to the Hospital emergency room with a cold.



Actually, Vern, I was talking about when you pay for it yourself.  I've paid for both pairs of my soles on my own.  Mine has nothing to do with my feet and everything to do with my hip (bursitis) and my back (chronic lower back pain from an immobile SI joint).  So when I mention the chit, it's only for wearing the soles, not to get them paid for.

Not to be politically _un_correct but I have seen a lot of people well over their "ideal" weight with special boots and I wonder would proper diet and exercise be sufficient to solve their problem.  ???


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## orange.paint (10 Mar 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Not to be politically _un_correct but I have seen a lot of people well over their "ideal" weight with special boots and I wonder would proper diet and exercise be sufficient to solve their problem.  ???



How dare a medical professional suggest a soldiers weight has something to do with his chronic backpain/knee pain/lack of energy/etc!
How many times a week I hear that!Dam doctor wouldn't order a MRI on my back even though I never injured it  IT HURTS!!I WONDER WHY TUBBY!



			
				The Librarian said:
			
		

> The people with NO foot problems can resole their boots at their own expense NOT via a chit, that keeps an already overwhelmed medical staff...actually dealing with medical issues just like they should be. It's like going to the Hospital emergency room with a cold.



I agree to a certain point Vern.However I wasted my MO's time one morning.I walked in wrote on my appointment paper.Here to get vibram soles so I have decent boots.I walked in he laughed and said he usually see people write in bad back etc THEN ask for the boots.I told him it was preventative medicine. 

Needless to say I walked out with a chit for comfy boots.Although I don't have any foot/back/knee issues,I wanted good boots to perform my job.And I didn't want to pay for something in the supply system handed out to fattys for free.

I also have only went to the UMS when parts are hanging off,when I woke up paralysed(bells palsey...and I still did PT ..then got ORDERED to go)and when I woke up there and they were injecting me and cutting my combats off.
So I don't waste their time lol.


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## elder medic (10 Mar 2007)

I find it somewhat mindboggling to read some of the unbelievable "poor me" notes and all the whinging I see here on this issue. Some of you people  have NO idea how fortunate you are that military medicine has advanced so far since my time in the Corps. Why did I go into the service at all? As I said, "good job", especially since my flat, very flat, large feet kept me off the Toronto police and the RCMP.  The army didn't have 14s so gave me a wide twelve which I wore the whole time, in various incarnations, paying for ALL repairs from my pocket, as we were expected to do. Why not just go see the MO, reasonably explain your problem (without getting  confrontational), if he gives you the chit you want, say "thank you veddy please" and bugger off. If you don't get the chit, maybe you don't actually need one, medically speaking.  The person with the rank on sleeve or shoulders is the one with the degree. 
 And while I'm here, since when did being overweight not have at least some bearing (however small) on back pain and other below the shoulders ills? 
I recall  WO 1 , now I guess he'd be a CWO, who tipped the scales at over 350 pounds. His car was beefed up on the drivers side. Complained constantly about back , knee and foot problems, but refused to take the MO's advice.  Overworked heart finally got him.  'Nuff said.


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## orange.paint (10 Mar 2007)

Sarcasm Eldermedic if you were referring to my post.

I'm far from Obese.I wanted boots and I got them.I also had no medical problems.
As I said if someone who doesn't look after themselves (I.E landmonsters) can get boots due to years of neglect,why shouldn't the soldier who prevents his injuries be entitled to it.

I had no issues getting it.I was honest,and I can see my toes/other parts.


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## elder medic (10 Mar 2007)

Sorry you appeared to take personal offence at my comment, but that was a generalization, NOT a personal barb. At my age I don't have the urge to do that. Mellow lives longer.


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## mudrecceman (10 Mar 2007)

FWIW, I see more people around the Halifax area with "Magnums" "Bates" "special boots" than I have ever seen anywhere.  Now, I myself have "special boots", but it was during a medical exam with a PA, who looked at my posture and "the way my feet turned inwards" and sent me to the foot clinic.  When the issued boots were not makin' my feet happy way-back-when, I bought myself some Matterhorns while in Ft Knox.  

I went 12 years after a fairly bad back injury in the issued boots.  Ruck marches, exercises, etc etc.  I wonder, when I see the young Pte's and Cpl's in Halifax with the special boots working in offices...

But then, I just gotta believe that those $249 pair of Bates M9 Assault, side zip, Gortex boots they are wearing are a real medical requirement.

 ;D

Are we spending the money entrusted to us by Joe and Jane Taxpayer the best we can in this area?  I dunno.


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## Osotogari (10 Mar 2007)

It often isn't the boot, it's the insoles.  The issue insoles turn my feet into hamburger, so I go to MEC and spend the money for better insoles.  Plus, only you know the difference.

Ideally I'd like the system to pay for them, but I just can't be bothered.  I guess if I needed expensive orthotics, it would be worth my while to rouse some clerk from their slumber.


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## orange.paint (10 Mar 2007)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> It often isn't the boot, it's the insoles.  The issue insoles turn my feet into hamburger, so I go to MEC and spend the money for better insoles.  Plus, only you know the difference.
> 
> Ideally I'd like the system to pay for them, but I just can't be bothered.  I guess if I needed expensive orthotics, it would be worth my while to rouse some clerk from their slumber.



Drop by the base hospital "storesman"he got everything back there.Had to go pick up ice packs for trooper hurtzalut,and seen the collection of goodies.he was happy to see me leave.

"So what are you here for?"he asked standing in a pile of gel foot inserts,wraps,etc.Almost needed a shopping cart by the time I left.


;D


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## Blackadder1916 (10 Mar 2007)

> .... mindboggling to read some of the unbelievable "poor me" notes and all the whinging....


During my years of service,  I saw a lot of individuals who went on sick parade trying to get medical chits to acquire non-standard items.  Some of them were medically legitimate and others were simply the method used to get issued the items they properly required, usually because they did not fit the size available in the system.  While it wasn't an actual "pissing contest" between supply and the medics concerning who was responsible for paying for the items, it could at times be a hassle.

Here is an outrageous example of this though it is not about footwear, and a true story from the mid 80's.

Just prior to leaving NDHQ MIR (my last week, I think) to go to Chilliwack for BOTC,  I was working the desk and received a call from a Major who wanted an appointment with a MO in order to get a note stating that he required an extra long bed.  The Major lived-in at either Uplands or Rockcliffe (an unusual occurrence at the time).  He stated that he was very tall (over 6'6" or 6'7" IIRC) and he could not fit into the longest bed that was available through BAccom.  Supposedly, a clerk over there had told him that if he had a medical chit they could get him an even longer bed.  This was a new one for me and I expressed my amusement by saying "You're s#@&&ing me, aren't you Sir?"  He assured me he wasn't and that he was completely serious.  He went on for several minutes about the issue, so much so I wondered whether some of my coworkers were trying to pull a practical joke on me before I left (at the time I had already been promoted/demoted to the lofty rank of OCdt and my fellow the NCOs liked nothing better than telling me that it was part of their job to ensure that untrained OCdts did not screw up).

Realizing the absurdity of the situation (after all, I was now an officer and was able to understand such subtleties) I told the Major that if he really needed the appointment I could book one for him, but I asked him if he thought he had a medical problem.  He answered that, honestly, he didn't but what was he to do?  I suggested he personally go to the office of the clerk who told him to see the doc and thus by towering over that individual would convince him that he was as big as he claimed.  He might even be able to terrify the clerk enough that the longer bed would be provided on the spot.  

By this time I was so self-impressed with my own wit, I continued, telling the Major that the medics deal with the medical disabilities of the human body.  His size did not seem to be a disability,  in fact, he was probably very proud of his size and other than a few Lurch jokes and some minor trouble finding clothes to fit, he wouldn't have it any other way.   If he thought that his size was a disability, then sure, see the MO and maybe he will cut him down to a proper size. The major laughed and agreed with me that this should not be a medical issue and said he would deal with it on the supply side of things.  No appointment was made at that time and by the following weekend I was in Chilliwack.  Other than recalling it as an amusing anecdote, that should have been the end.

About two years later I was back in Ottawa at NDHQ.  Among the many duties of my position, I was the LCMM for 6530 class items and also responsible for staffing non-medical MACRs which required medical branch input.  One of the MACRs sitting in my in-box was a request for an extra long bed for CFB Ottawa to be used in single officer quarters.  One of the attachments to the file was a copy of a chit from the MO.


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

The regulations are quite clear regarding kit.

If you don't fit into a stocked size...it's a Supply resp and no chit is required.

If you want to modify existing kit or purchase kit using taxpayers money for a medical reason, then it must be via a chit where the MO is certifying that he has verified your medical requirement for it. TB guidleines for use of public funds and CFMOs in this area are quite clear. A certified valid medical requirement. Then the chit comes to Supply (Clothing Stores if it's clothing) and we do the purchasing of it. Now if MOs, & physio are not certifying that there is a valid medical reason for that purchase before signing that chit as such as per their CFMOs, then it's their problem when the auditors come knocking.

And PMedMo, no offense, but if you resoled your own boots at your own expense due to hips/bursitis etc, something is wrong. Sounds like a medical requirement to me.

Oh Blackadder,

We're getting a lot of very tall people these days...we buy an awful lot of extra-long sleeping bags these days for troops who are just too damn tall for the stocked items; and they don't need chits to get them. They are pretty obvious!!


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> And PMedMo, no offense, but if you resoled your own boots at your own expense due to hips/bursitis etc, something is wrong. Sounds like a medical requirement to me.



No offense taken, Vern, I just couldn't be bothered to wait the time to get things approved.  I could legitimately get a chit.  Here's a question: How is it that I had a medical chit (for boots) on my clothing docs in Petawawa but when I got to Kingston, it was no longer there?  You would think that once it's there, there would be no requirement to go through the process again.
BTW, CFMOs are now obsolete.  We use Policy and Guidance (PGs)


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2007)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No offense taken, Vern, I just couldn't be bothered to wait the time to get things approved.  I could legitimately get a chit.  Here's a question: How is it that I had a medical chit (for boots) on my clothing docs in Petawawa but when I got to Kingston, it was no longer there?  You would think that once it's there, there would be no requirement to go through the process again.
> BTW, CFMOs are now obsolete.  We use Policy and Guidance (PGs)



Why would your wait have been too long?? Perhaps because of the people going in with no medical problems... It's like I pointed out below, those that abuse the system take away from the ones who need it. And the ones who need it end up suffering/waiting/paying themselves in the end. 

Some bases remove the chit as the requirement is that it be issued from the base that you are posted to. This is because footwear is purchased using the specific Base's budget...not national's budget. So each Comd, of course, wants to ensure that his allocated funding is spent properly and IAW regulations. IE Gagetown monies spent on boots must be based on authorization...from Gagetown (ie the BHosp here). Petawawa can not authorize (via chit) the spending of Gagetown funds... make sense? That also explains why people who do wear purchased footwear...have a really hard time getting it from another base without doing the medical thing over again.

If a student from Pet comes here on course and doesn't get the new purchased boots that he requires from his HOME UNIT prior to reporting...we have to do up the paperwork to go back to his Home unit...requesting permission to buy for THEIR soldier...and asking for a Fin Code from their Base to pay for them. Most bases say "no he can wait til he's back" as he should have gotten his kit here prior to going on course just like his joining instructions say." Some bases say yes and give us the Fin Code, and then we can do the buy...but it's a decision that is made by the Members Home Unit (because it's their money being spent)...not the Unit he is on course at. 

The chit is not good for life...but rather only for 2 years (as foot problems can change so the reassment is due every two years...as your orthotics may change as well). If you have a medical chit...it entitles you to a purchase of those boots once in a *two* years period. 

As for the CFMOs/PGs....the policy & guidelines for orthotic footwear/orthotic insoles/mesh sided boots...are still in there.

My biggest peeve is the people who go to the MIR for chits...just because... If there is no certified medical requirement for those boots (and they fit into issued boots) then the crown IS NOT obligated to pay for them for those soldiers. If they just want the soles...they can pay for them themselves out of their damn pockets. Then people like you with actual medical problems can actually make it through the medical system in good time, have your problems dealt with, and have the boots you require purchased for you at Crown expense as you ARE entitled to. Really, I can't be the only person who realizes this.

Vern


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2007)

Thanks for the info.  In Petawawa, I would have had to wait at least 6 weeks, just for the specialist appt.  Not sure what wait time is in Kingston.  I do fit regular combat boots, just need the soles.  I had ordered a pair of boots prior to my posting in Pet.  I believe I had ordered them _at least_ two months before my posting date, but they never arrived.  I quite sure someone else has them now..... :
Yes, the CFMO info is in the PGs.  All someone did was cut and paste.  No updates at all.


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