# LSVW and ILTIS Replacements (Silverado & G Wagon)?



## PTE_Lui

I was up in Red Deer this last weekend, doing recruiting for 749 CS in a mall.  Of course, wowing people with an LSVW with an RRB config. and an ILTIS.  Thing is, I‘m none to sure about the future of either vehicles.  I mean, I‘m sure everyone who‘s driven one knows how much of a marvelous experience it is to drive an LS; in fact, our LCT broke down on the highway 20 minutes outside Calgary.  But my SSM told me that there‘s SUPPOSED to be a new program in place to replace the LS (or ILTIS, forgot which) with some sort of Mercedez vehicle or something.  Anyone know more about this, because a MCpl told me that the ILTIS is being replaced by another fine Western Star product.  Personally, as a young Private of one year, I‘d like to know if I‘ll have to pilot the LS for the remainder of my military career, for obvious reasons.


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## Sharpey

It is the Iltis that is being replaced by the Mercedes Gelandewagon (G-Wagon). Mixed feeling about this piece of kit! I‘ve seen civie pattern version of this at a dealer, nice family car!
 I have also heard a rumour that GM put a bid back in, not sure though.
 As for the LSVW! No comment, it‘s a gutless overgrown Iltis. That could stand to be replaced by the versatile Hummer.


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## snooprobbiedog

So is it a "definite known fact" that the G-Wagen has been chosen as the Iltis replacement, or just a likely possibility combined with some wishful thinking?     

The USMC has chosen the G-Wagen, right?

Rob


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## Sharpey

From what I hear, the G-Wagon will be the new LUVW, but im at the bottom so who knows...
 I would prefer a VBL or something, the G-Wagon is a converted civie truck. But, if a CD player comes equipt, I won‘t complain.


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## snooprobbiedog

I thought that the G-Wagen was originally a military vehicle, that was later plushed-up to be sold in the civvie market.

Rob


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## Sharpey

That I don‘t know. Detailed information on the LUVW seldom makes it to my level. All I know is that the lowest bidderwill get the contract. Makes you sit easy doesn‘t it...but I don‘t see another LSVW disaster happening mainly because Mercedes is a reputable name.
 On the G-Wagon topic, anybody have ideas on who is manufacturing these for Canada? Mercedes? Bombardier?
 Any ideas on the variants being made available, is Recce going to be stuck with a hard top? Doors removeable?


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## Spanky

As far as I‘ve heard, Mercedes has been the only qualifying bidder.  The rest dropped out.  In terms of specs and timings, check out this website.
 http://www.concentricmc.com/luvw/english


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## BillP

From what I know, the G-wagens will be built in Austria, then shipped here. There will be 2 versions, one a modified/repainted civie version for the reserves. The other will be full spec military, with removeable everything, applique armour add-on capability, and an internal kevlar "blanket". Considering the G-wagen variants have/are being used by several European countries with great success for decades says good things about it.The USMC also acquired some for recce/rapid deployment purposes.


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## Spr Earl

The one thing I noticed when I drove L.S. C.P. in Yugo with European fuel it drove a ****  of a lot better there than here , don‘t ask me why may be the differant refining method‘s for fuel oil,i.e. may be more oil or kerosen left in the fuel? but the old thing went like a bat out of ****  ,even the S.S.M. commented on it and had to keep telling me to take it easy.
 As every one who has been over in Europe the exhaust smell‘s different with diesel powered vehicle‘s and the L.S.‘s engine is Italian.


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## herbie

I would prefer a civie vehicle that has been modified to meet our military needs any day.  Remember the 5/4 and CUCV.  They did a good job for 20 + years.  Civie vehicles have been trialed already, parts are cheaper and more availible, and come with more creature comforts.  
But whatever we get it will be better than the LS.


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## Spanky

I agree.  The LSVW is a piece of crap.  I haven‘t heard of any plan to replace it however.  Speaking of good vehivles from the past, what about the old 3/4 tons.  They were real workhorses.


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## PTE_Lui

hmm... i can‘t see any of the threads after spankey‘s... I‘m not spamming, I‘m trying to see them...


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## rceme_rat

I always get a good laugh at this conversation when it comes up - how the old stuff was always better than the repalcement kit.  I figure it should lead to us adopting chariots again!

Anyone I‘ve talked to about the 3/4 liked it because it was better than the alternative.  But it hardly qualifies as a solid piece of modern engineering.  E.g., ask around about why cushions were mounted to the inside of the roof and you should hear about the bad suspension.  

Now, the LSVW was probably not a great choice -- but the blame for that falls squarely on the politicians.  First, for deciding that the military requirement for a 2 ton truck was not realistic (despite the large number of 5/4 MRTs running around with extra leaf springs and carrying 2T or more of spares), and then forcing the "pass" results when LETE wanted to fail the LSVW -- repeatedly.

I think the SMP vs militarized civilian discussion requires focus on a number of competing factors - cost, necessary modifications, need to add armour, effect of heavier than intended loads, etc.  Ideally, if this is to be a "go anywhere, do anything" vehicle, then it would be SMP.  But can we afford it???  Probably not in today‘s environment.


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## Mr.Wiggly

I‘m taking driver wheel in Dundurn right now and what they are saying is that the iltis is being replaced, and its being replaced by the mercedes only for the reg force and for the reserves its going to be some chev suburban.


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## enfield

A guy from my unit who was in Bosnia last year mentioned that the French have LSVW‘s as well - but they have a hard canopy in the back, a bigger engine, and normal brakes.

My International Relations prof howe the class some pictures from his trip to the Canadian mission in Haiti. A photo of him in front of an LSVW sparked a 5 minute of the lecture to how bad the truck was and how noisy it was.

If it‘s all-about inter-operability, shouldn‘t we have Land Rovers? **** , the guy‘s in Afghanistan are using Hummers...


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## PTE_Lui

It was funny; we came back to our unit from a weekend exercise and stoped at the local husky to fill up.  Some guy driving a pick up truck drove up to us and said "How do you like these pieces of **** I built?" 

It turned out he worked on the assembly line at Western Star, and he knew how brutal the LS was.  I feel bad for having to BS to so many civilians about the LS; I mean, it seems ok for "controlled offroading" but on city streets and highways, and even just standing still in our compound; they‘re TERRIBLE!


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## astrof

Enfield: Yes our guys are using the american‘s hummers, but that is because we decided to not send them over with vehicles except for the Coyotes and support stuff. If we actually had the capability they would be using the ILTIS like the rest of the forces.

It‘s not that our vehicles are bad it‘s just that they are built by the lowest bidder


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## Sharpey

Here‘s a thought. Dump the LSVW and buy Hummers from the US. The Hummer is so versatile it could easily fulfill all the current roles and more of our beloved LS. I am sure our American buddies would sell them to us cheap. 

Next point, is the G-Wagon Diesel? That would make sence to. Why? Cheaper, plus isn‘t the Iltis the only gasoline vehicle in the CF?

Lastly, our unit is having it‘s 20 some odd Ilti replaced by 9 G-Wagons! Tell me how that makes sence. It‘s a number on paper issue I beleive for that, but instead of taking away all of our Ilti, let us keep the other 10 or so, so that our unit can trane as a unit, not this troop this weekend and that troop that weekend.

OMG!! I think that statement made sence!! I better shut my mouth before they kick me out of the army!


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## BillP

It all comes down to politics; the G-wagen is being built in Austria, Magna Corp. a "Liberal campaign booster" here in Canada, has alot of influence in Austrian Industry, as a result deals were made for the G-wagen to be procured. Considering ALL other contenders either pulled out/did not bid due to the fact the Libs "manipulated" the process! Also the odds of the Libs buying U.S. built hummers are slim, if they did they would be alienating the big "vote liberal" industry types.


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## noneck

I was told today by a buddy at 39 CBG HQ that mercedes has dropped out of the process to provide the CF with new vehicles to replace the Iltis. Is this true?


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## Jungle

How about we scrap the ILTIS, and not replace it !!! Hey, when we need them, we can just rent them from someone else !!! Why not disband the CF and hire a Private Military Company whenever we need troops...


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## korgano

I‘ve also heard the reserves are getting the Chevy Cheyennes, and the regs are getting the mercedes, and eventually the mercedes will trickle down to reserves. I‘ve also seen, in bordon, dudes torking around in shinny green jeep cherokees in the bush, Permanent thing? I dont know, may just be a temp solution thing.


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## Harry

Right...   :blotto:     The 5/4 was a temporary solution as well      .


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## Gordon Angus Mackinlay

He who uses Jungle wrote:

"Why not disband the CF and hire a Private Military Company whenever we need troops"

Don‘t joke about it - see

 http://latimes.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=la%2D000026555apr14 

U.S. Companies Hired to Train Foreign Armies

Yours,
Jock in Sydney


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## Fishbone Jones

Olive,
The Cheyannes and/ or variants have been used in Borden and the G‘Spot for a number of years as the DS vehicle and all round runabout for the schools. Not a new thing or anything to get worked up about


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## Michael Dorosh

I have driven US Army HUMVEEs (they are NOT "Hummers") both on road and off; they are big and noisy - just like driving an MLVW, and you can‘t fit any more troops into them than an Iltis, thanks to the odd layout inside.  Thanks, but no thanks.  Anybody who would wish for one probably hasn‘t driven one.

I still don‘t see what advanatages the ILTIS had over the tried and true JEEP, be it the CJ configuration or even the older M38 or Willy‘s/GPW.  

I agree something needs to be done about both the Iltis and LSVW, but HMMVWs are not the answer.

Incidentally, will we ever see a truck that has spring loaded troop seats in the back?  I can‘t count the number of times I‘ve ended up flat on my back in the cargo section of an ML or LS hanging on for dear life because the seats have absolutely no spring to them.


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## Harry

Egads, the HMMWV debate rears its ugly head again.

I have also operated the HUMVEE.  Letâ€™s explore once again a couple of facts.  That is after I relate my experience of seeing a picture showing a TOW gun taped into an Iltis last week in Afganistan.  Needless to say I choked on my Oaties after spitting most it across the kitchen in a fit of laughter (guess the TOW BV206 are doing other things?). 

The HMMVW was designed to replace what we call the LS and ML of the US wheeled fleet.  It fits four pers as indicated in what you consider an odd lay out.  If anyone checked the specs, each pers has their own little mine protective bathtub so to speak.  The integral safety features of this can not be touched by too many existing multi purpose wheeled vehs our mandarins have considered.

It has been designed to fit everything from an M-60 to a turret mounted Air Defence Missile system and there are models with a 20mm enclosed turret.  Lets be straight up, some may disparage the HMMVW, but I think it will handle a lot better than an Iltis with a TOW on it.  There are various versions for various roles including troop carrier.  I would surmise based upon manufacturer spec, that the HMMVW has a higher survivability rating than an MLVW WRT mine strikes.  As for sounding like an MLVW, well it replaced the Merican fleet of similar trucks and subsequently would have to have a similar veh power plant to fulfill this role, wonder why it sounds like one?

For what the HUMVEE is and the multiple roles it fulfills, you couldnâ€™t get a better vehicle.  I am willing to go out on a limb here, after all costs are added up, the G-Wagen will cost more and not be as adaptable.  It will not even compare in the HUMVEEâ€™s built in defensive armor and the survivability ratings.

Why did the Iltis replace the old Jeeps, safety?  They were old, getting worn out and they showed it.  Ask the guys in Gagetown that got smeared onto the Trans Canada, oh sorry, they didnâ€™t make it.  But it illuminates a valid point, we operate three types of wheeled fleets, in reality we could replace two with a good single fleet veh and maintain the heavy fleet as is.  The LSVW is similar in size and payload requirements, side by side, the LSVW pales in comparison.

And my two cents worth on rear troop carrying.  When will we ever adopt centre mounted seating so the troops can roll up the tarps and face outwards, providing both safety in the event of a mine strike (not sitting over the blast) and can respond to an attack/ambush.

Itâ€™s a tough debate, but IMHO, the HUMVEE is superior to anything we have fielded to date based upon payload specs, capabilities and survivability.  After traipsing around the world and operating some pretty wild kit, the HUMVEE does stand out. 

On the down side, I think any veh wishes we have, have been soundly put to sleep for a long time by or government.  Why would we replace a vehicle that fits into the light support role with a vehicle that will cost (after all the bells, whistles and kick backs) over four times the value of an Iltis (yes the Iltis was grossly over priced by Bombardier) and 5 times any Jeep series?  Mind boggling, like spending $150 g on a run about for local trips and then justifying it by explaining the undercoating and warranty cost as much as the car.


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## 21trucker

I had an opportunity to check out the new G-Wagon while on course in Borden; although i didn't drive it :'(, i did sit in one. I know they are very reliable having been in use by other forces around the world for many, many years.  To those that have driven it, what do you think?  Was it a wise investment?  Should we have bought more if the $$$$ was there?

My thoughts on the MILCOTS:
They have to be the biggest waste of money spent by DND since the purchase of the LSVW :rage:. Why in the world would you buy a truck, the same one i drive daily, paint it green, B/O lights, and all that other army stuff, and then say it is not be used in the field :rage: :rage:!! WHERE'S THE LOGIC!!!! I understand we needed to replace the iltis, but with a pickup that is essentially the same as the civvy crewcabs??? ??? Why not save the money spent on MILCOTS and put it towards the G-Wagon; or maybe something a little cheaper like the Jeep Liberty, (new diesel version being introduced).   

I think the army needs to find some better ways to spend money when it comes to vehicle replacements. The MLVW will be the next vehicle to be replaced  . What are they going to chose, Ford 3-tons painted camo green with B/O lights?????  I hate to say it, but the big P needs to disappear. That being Politics. Why can we not buy vehicles from a fellow allied country.  I understand the government wants to create jobs for the people of canada. But to tell a bidding corporation they have to set up and build in Canada, is in my opinion, nonsense.  A plan needs to be put in place to replace vehicles every 15 years at the most. 
Money should be set aside in some sort of trust, so when the time comes, there is no strain on the various departments, and the army gets what it needs.

I'm in a reserve Service Battalion, and have a severe shortage of vehicles. 1 HL Cargo, 1 HL TCV, another on the way(believe it when i see it), 3 ML, and i believe 5 LSVW. How can a Service Battalion effectively do it's job, without the tools to do it.

Enough for now, i'm starting to ramble on.

Just my 0.02


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## Yard Ape

Where did you hear that the MilCOTS is not to be used off roads?  That's got to be the most pure BS I've ever heard.  Over the last week, I've watched dozens of them beating about off roads.


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## Michael OLeary

21trucker said:
			
		

> My thoughts on the MILCOTS:
> They have to be the biggest waste of money spent by DND since the purchase of the LSVW :rage:. Why in the world would you buy a truck, the same one i drive daily, paint it green, B/O lights, and all that other army stuff, and then say it is not be used in the field :rage: :rage:!! WHERE'S THE LOGIC!!!! I understand we needed to replace the iltis, but with a pickup that is essentially the same as the civvy crewcabs??? ??? Why not save the money spent on MILCOTS and put it towards the G-Wagon; or maybe something a little cheaper like the Jeep Liberty, (new diesel version being introduced).



Before the LSVW we has the 5/4-ton fleet (CPs, cargo, mortar carriers, etc.), a civilian pattern vehicle purchased on a 5-year interim project - that we ran for 25 years. All with support from civilian parts and maintenence when local military facilities were unavailable or over-burdened. We've already proven that the MILCOTS approach works for domestic fleets.

Also, from what I have been told, there was input from the Reserves on what type of vehicle they wanted as a unit vehicle and what their requirements were. Many reserve unit transportation tasks involve the transport of a mix of personnel and equipment (advance parties, range staffs, etc.) that the Iltis alone didn't handle well, and had to be supplemented by CQ stores vehicles or rentals. Probably the most used vehicle in many reserve units has been the rented (or CF) extended cab - and it's very likely that compiled brigade or unit staff returns indicated that more of them would carry the administrative load of the units better than any other option. For the most part, except for in the reserve Recce Regiments (which I believe will eventually get G-wagons, correct me if I am wrong) the Iltis was seldom used as a recce or command vehicle, and most used in admin roles through the unit training year.



			
				21trucker said:
			
		

> I'm in a reserve Service Battalion, and have a severe shortage of vehicles. 1 HL Cargo, 1 HL TCV, another on the way(believe it when i see it), 3 ML, and i believe 5 LSVW. How can a Service Battalion effectively do it's job, without the tools to do it.



Please let us know how many vehicles you believe your unit should own to support it's 30-40 training days per year. Extrapolate this by the number of Reserve Service Battalions, and add equally generous entitlements for all of the rest of the Reserves to meet their training requirements. Now, how many extra vehicles should we be buying, with the same Defence budget.


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## Yard Ape

I personnaly think that every civillian pattern crew-cab in the CF should be replaced by a MilCOTS (1 for 1 change).  This would give flexibility to use all vehicles in the field.


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## Lance Wiebe

The 5/4 is a poor example.  It showed exactly what happens when a civilian vehicle is used as an SMP.  In the long run, they were far more expensive than a dedicated SMP.  Yes, they were cheaper to buy initially, but were far more expensive to maintain.  The Chev was just not tough enough.

On the other hand, a purpose built military vehicle that was adapted to civilian life is great.  Vehicles like the Hummer and the Gelandewagen are good examples.  Steyr also makes an excellent 2 1/2 ton truck that has been used as support vehicles in the Paris-Dakar race by civilian firms.  The vehicles are there, we just need to buy the right thing.  Who cares if they are made by Bombardier or Western Star?

The Milcots should be good for its intended task, as a support/echelon vehicle.  And, I agree with Yard Ape, the leased/rented crew cabs should, and hopefully will, all be replaced.  I also was told, by an RSS Sgt that I know, that the operators being taught the Milcots were told that the vehicle should not be used cross-country, they should only be used on, at worst, black tracks.  This is because they are certainly not designed to be a Gelandewagen wannabe!


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## 21trucker

> Please let us know how many vehicles you believe your unit should own to support it's 30-40 training days per year. Extrapolate this by the number of Reserve Service Battalions, and add equally generous entitlements for all of the rest of the Reserves to meet their training requirements. Now, how many extra vehicles should we be buying, with the same Defence budget.



Mike,
I can see where you are coming from. However, how can the upper echelon expect us to do our job if we don't have the resources. Do our LSVW's need to outnumber our ML's and HL's put together???  Our unit is growing in MSE Op' s; how effective are we going to be, doing DP's and convoy driving with 2-4 heavy trucks?? Especially considering drivers outnumber the trucks available??? Do we put out a schedule as to who does what week to week?? Is everyone going to get their 1000kms to stay current every training year?? I have been in the reserves 13 years now, and i don't think it has ever been this bad; in the way of a lack of vehicles. Sometimes i wonder what i'm still doing here, but i hang in hoping it will get better.



> I personnaly think that every civillian pattern crew-cab in the CF should be replaced by a MilCOTS (1 for 1 change).  This would give flexibility to use all vehicles in the field.



My sentiments exactly, Yard ape. Not to mention the possible PR being done in some towns by having these driving around as they are doing admin duties, etc.



> On the other hand, a purpose built military vehicle that was adapted to civilian life is great.  Vehicles like the Hummer and the Gelandewagen are good examples.  Steyr also makes an excellent 2 1/2 ton truck that has been used as support vehicles in the Paris-Dakar race by civilian firms.  The vehicles are there, we just need to buy the right thing.  Who cares if they are made by Bombardier or Western Star?



Lance, i agree. The Steyr would make an excellent replacement for the MLVW. We should be buying from our allies whenever possible to help stretch out our measly defence budget.  As stated before, a life cycle needs to be developed and vehicles replaced in a timely matter (10-15 years) and not 20.  Why do we have to award a DEFENCE contract to a snowmobile/watercraft company. They only mess things up. Prime example is the Iltis, what would have cost about $37,000 to have it built in Germany, ended up costing about $80,000 because Bombardier had to re-tool their shop and buy the blueprints.


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## chrisf

While standing sentry at the recent ArCon, we had a seperate gate, with a parking area from which the owners had to walk into the camp from, nearby for civvie pattern vehicles as the roads within the camp had become exceptionally bad.

Out of curiosity, I asked if the MilCots were considered civvie pattern or military pattern... after about a half hour of checking, the person on the other end of the radio replied that they were considered civvie pattern...


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## Poppa

As someone who has put a lot of Km on the new MILCOTS both on the hwyway and the bush...I think I can safely say that it is a vast improvement over the Iltis. I now have more internal capacity, we can be more doctrinally in line with our allies with the 3 man jeep team.
As for not going off road...It's a MILITARIZED veh. It can handle the rough stuff. For those of you who say it can't go through deep sand or mud...how soon you forget the Iltis sucked in sand as well, the LSVW is only good in the snow if parked and the fuel fired coolant heater is miraculously working.

What we got was a dependable truck that can perform off road well enough to meet our needs that will not have huge maint issues for remote units.

My 2 cents


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## CanadianSIG

Any vehicle that doesn't have to have recovery's phone number taped to dash is a welcome change.

From a sig perspective - I'm sure there will be some issues with the CP pods but that will work itself out since 
we've been wasting most of our valuable training time anyways jury rigging mods and gear because 
half the convoy broke down en-route to the training area.

oh and if the things could actually maintain highway speed into the wind so we can actually traverse 
the rather large distances we have to travel in this country --- that would be nice --- 

As for offroad capabilities --- I've driven Hummers (in stuff that you wouldn't want to try in something else), Iltis, MLVW's, Toyota's, and have a Dodge 3500. 
Haven't seen the performance of the G-Wagon yet ---- but it doesn't matter what you have if you have people behind the wheel who don't know how to drive offroad   
- most of what I've seen is people who drive daily on pavement (maybe a few gravel roads / forestry roads once in awhile) climb into a military vehicle and either 

a) think it's some type of dirt bike/quad purposely running em thru bogs - revving em up and generally playing till they get stuck (which sucks for them since we don't carry recovery straps, cumalongs/winches (which is kind of odd considering).

or

b) drive beyond THEIR capabilities - offroad driving is a different skillset - 

We aren't privy to whether our higher ups were asked to comment on what capabilities we needed - but I hope they answered thinking about how we train/respond

- sub-arctic nation - deep snow in winter, muddy deeply rutted roads at other times - yes it needs to be usable in the field (or are we now relegated to practicing in parking lots??? local campgrounds???   :   )
- big country - need to be able to get to places in a somewhat timely manner. 
- trucks sit outside in winter for extended periods
- need to carry/transport A LOT of gear/equipment
- able to ascend steep forestry roads without overheating like they did on Op Peregrine - even if you were using the lower gears to keep the tranny fluid circulating (as recommended by the Vehtechs)
- able to get repair parts for them - easily - so it can be fixed in a week - as opposed to a month.

- and while we only use them for 30-40 training days each year - trying to pool them or make them universally accessible to everyone - just wastes a reserve units training time by having to prep a vehicle all the time - our ex's/training has now ground down to prep truck/unprep truck (assuming someone hasn't 'borrowed/loaned' out the truck/gear you need) - not exactly a valuable use of our time... 

I'd rather have vehicles that at least allows us to practice what we are supposed to; and allows us to get where we are needed - I'm okay with leaving the big boy trucks to the guys who are using them as tools - they need them.


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## Michael Dorosh

I am glad the initial off the mark comments in this thread were so quickly rebuffed.   As a company OC's driver, I'll be extremely happy not to have to piss around with a trailer- the Iltis just couldn't fit myself, the OC, the CSM, sometimes the Coy 2 i/c, four rucksacks, webgear, weapons, plus camp stores, radio equipment, antenna mast unit, etc.   The few exs I've been on, Coy HQ was set up next to an MSR anyway, so the OC could report to bn or bde/BG HQ as required.

My only question - does the MILCOT have a radio tray in the cab?

Oh, and having driven a friend's privately owned US Army Hummer, whatever mobility they have, I have to say they suck in other respects.  They are slow and noisy like an ML and have marginally more useable space inside for stowage.  Not to mention being twice as wide as the Iltis and with poor visibility for the driver.  And the one I was in had a leaky roof on top of it, probably due to the weapons mount.

But - if it means not having to drive back through the training area the morning after a convoy drive to find the doors that have fallen off, like I've done with the Polecat, I'd drive my mother's Honda Civic in the training area.


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## CanadianSIG

thanks for reminding me --- the trailer... we pull our 10K gene for the CP det

a trailer light plug in receptacle that actually works ... and doesn't fall out halfway down the route... ^-^

p.s. I think the leaking roof/window on the Hummer is common - my buddies civi Hummer (which I call the big tractor) does the same...


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## PuckChaser

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> My only question - does the MILCOT have a radio tray in the cab?.



Only certain variants do. On the recent Stalwart Guardian, the Ex Commander, BGen Young, had to borrow my Troop's Milcot, because it was one of a few that has a radio. Don't get me started on the antenae AMU though.....  Only the recce models have it, MP variants do not.

Onto the Milcot itself. People think they can offroad all they want in it. I'd rather be in an LS. These vehicles are going to be abused, misused, and destroyed within a couple years, if people don't start losing thier 404s for screwing around in them.


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## Michael Dorosh

SuperSlug said:
			
		

> Only certain variants do. On the recent Stalwart Guardian, the Ex Commander, BGen Young, had to borrow my Troop's Milcot, because it was one of a few that has a radio. Don't get me started on the antenae AMU though.....  Only the recce models have it, MP variants do not.



Thanks!


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## McG

CanadianSIG said:
			
		

> it doesn't matter what you have if you have people behind the wheel who don't know how to drive offroad


There is the right answer.


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## Brad Sallows

>Ford 3-tons painted camo green with B/O lights?

More likely a 5- or 10-ton.  In this case the gunners rather than the recce should get SMP (gun tractors).

Considering how they are used by non-recce units and the number of highway/urban versus off-road/training area mileage, COTS is the way to go for the reserves.  Buy cheap, reasonably rugged trucks with no frills, wear 'em out, buy more of same.


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## Michael Dorosh

Okay, call me unobservant, but what does MILCOTS stand for?  Brad just used COTS on its own.  Civilian Off The Shelf??


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## Fishbone Jones

Yes Michael, 

*MIL*itary *C*ommercial *O*ff *T*he *S*helf


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## Brad Sallows

I recollect Commercial Off The Shelf.


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## Fishbone Jones

Brad,
You're right. Had a brain fart trying to get a dig at Michael ;D (See my byline about the monkey. Shows where my heads been at after three weekends off this summer : )


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## Jeff Boomhouwer

I like MILVERADO instead of MILCOTS


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## Posthumane

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how these vehicles are going to be serviced in the reserves? By that I mean, are there going to be standard qualification courses for it right away so that local vehTechs can fix them, or are they under a factory warranty, as the rumors I've heard say? I can see some issues with repairs being done on them in local shops since many reserve units do not have much equipment and knowledge on *modern* vehicle repairs (anything dealing with modern auto electrical systems and such seems to be a black art to a lot of people I know). Also, is the 404 qualification on this vehicle the same one as for the civvy pattern crew cab?


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## Fishbone Jones

The whole idea, or one of the main ones anyway, was to give the Reserves a vehicle that could be serviced locally. It will be going to the nearest dealer for servicing, at least while it's under warranty. You can't even add oil to it right now. You need the conversion course or the formal one, depending what you hold right now, before you can drive it.


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## Mountie

How about the 5/4 tonne version of the G-Wagon as a LSVW replacement?  This would ease the maintenance burden by eliminating a vehicle fleet.


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## b.scheller

Well with the cracked floor boards, and the small Ilsis' perhaps Canada needs a new vehicle in their armed forces. Should the government spend money on just re-building and arming already existant vehicles such as FORD OR GMC trucks or god forbid more Mercedes Benz G wagons or should they try to develop something of their own. Something bigger and better then the small ilsis?

Thanks!

oops i'm retarded...sorry, if a mod could move this thread to the sub-vehicle section i'd appreciate it... :-[


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## Gilligan

The reserves are getting the Milcot, which is a "militarized" chevy silverado.   Personally, I find it to be a giant hunk of crap....we can't take it off hardpack, which is useless to us out west.   I've heard many good things about the G-wagon that the regs have, based on use of the milcot, I would rather have the G-wagon, although I'm not quite sure I'm altogether ready to give up the Lltis.   It is far more vesitile than a full sized pickup, as it is it's a civy truck with a rifle rack in the middle. We aren't afraid to beat the Lltis up a little, as isn't that the purpose of any vehicle in the military?


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## McGurk,G

On this subject My Feeling is that the Canadain Forces need to step back for a moment and look at the history of all the vehicles they have had, look at the repair records for them and choose the newer models of each one no matter what the cost. My opion is that you cannot put a price on a persons safety.


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## Wizard of OZ

Gilligan said:
			
		

> The reserves are getting the Milcot, which is a "militarized" chevy silverado.   Personally, I find it to be a giant hunk of crap....we can't take it off hardpack, which is useless to us out west.   I've heard many good things about the G-wagon that the regs have, based on use of the milcot, I would rather have the G-wagon, although I'm not quite sure I'm altogether ready to give up the Lltis.   It is far more vesversatilean a full sized pickup, as it is it's a civy truck with a rifle rack in the middle. We aren't afraid to beat the Lltis up a little, as isn't that the purpose of any vehicle in the military?



I hear you!!

As i look out my office window i can see at least a hundred of those green MILCOT's in the parking lot.  I hear they are only two wheel drive packages with no winter block heaters in them, smart right.  The G-Wagon is also sitting out there, but i don't know much about, but i do hear good things from some of the guys overseas.  There are the usual bitches about the G-Wagon, like any new kit, but mostly i hear good things don't know if that will hold but only time will tell.

As for the MICOT's jeez it's like the government went and bought year end stock from GM and then had them paint it drap green.  I don't know what will happen with those as i hear they are not to be deployed or used in the field but for domestic operations only.  Sounds like a government purchase alright.

As far as the LSVW being replaced by the HUMMER, recent events in IRAQ have shown the HUMMER can't live up to its reputation or boast (depending on who you talk to)  But i don't see that as a very viable way to go. As we rarely buy equipment that the Americans do because that might make it cheaper and easier to get and fix and ........  breath breath.  Anyway the LSVW is and was a political decision the PC under Kim to have it replaced now would be expensive and would take away from more pressing matters SEA KINGS, HERCS and the list goes on.


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## chrisf

Gilligan said:
			
		

> The reserves are getting the Milcot, which is a "militarized" chevy silverado.   Personally, I find it to be a giant hunk of crap....we can't take it off hardpack, which is useless to us out west.   I've heard many good things about the G-wagon that the regs have, based on use of the milcot, I would rather have the G-wagon, although I'm not quite sure I'm altogether ready to give up the Lltis.   It is far more vesitile than a full sized pickup, as it is it's a civy truck with a rifle rack in the middle. We aren't afraid to beat the Lltis up a little, as isn't that the purpose of any vehicle in the military?



I qualified on the milcot very recently, and I must say, it's a pleasure to drive... and though it's got many drawbacks... and I've withdrawn my earlier distaste for the vehicle... I still think it's ridiculous as a replacement for the iltis, and it would be ridiculous as a replacement for LSVW as well, but it's a reaonsably good vehicle for use in a utility role, primarily in support of domestic ops... if we ever get the winches for them, it'll be better still... snorkel kits would be nice too... but that would be nice for all vehicles...

On the subject of beating it up, according to our transport rep, as the body panels are substantially thicker then a normal truck, you can walk on them... as soon as I have a reasonable excuse to walk on one (I can't justify simply dancing on the hood in case he's wrong), I plan to walk on every inch of it just to find out. Beyond that, the paint is just cosmetic... if somone tells you you're not allowed to scratch it, well, that's a problem between you and them, not me.

I'm really not a fan of not being allowed to do maintence on it, and the fact that our mechanics aren't allowed to do maintence on them bothers me even more... for the purposes of exercises, fine, whatever, save the mechanics to work on the other vehicles, but if you're supporting domestic ops, you need to be able to fix your trucks...

We obviously still need a real replacement for the iltis, and the milcot isn't it, that being said, it does give us a much more durable (And unfortunately, much more expensive) vehicle to fill a niche usually filled by rental vehicles.

Now that I'm done being frightened by the iltis, I'm going to move on to being terrified that the rumor that they're replacing the MLVW with a cube van painted green...


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## Love793

Just to clarify.   The MILCOTS can be taken off road.   They are 4 WD (4H,4L,2H) with a Duramax 6600 generating 300+ HP.   Yes they are being maintained currently by dealerships (probably until the warrantee expires), at which time driver maint will probably start to be a larger issue.   You probably don't want to be beating the snot out the truck as a driver any how.   It's not intended to go places the Iltis/Jeep etc go.   It's a LOGISTIC/ADMIN veh, not a Recce veh, not a Baja Truck.   Common sence should apply.   If you crack up a Iltis, through carelessness you get hung.   What do you think will happen when you crack up a $80 000, brand new truck and void the warrantee?

As for the G Wagon, until I see one and get qualified on it I will reserve judgement.   However I have heard very little in the way of negative reports on them.


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## chrisf

Love793 said:
			
		

> Just to clarify.   The MILCOTS can be taken off road.   They are 4 WD (4H,4L,2H) with a Duramax 6600 generating 300+ HP.



Yes, it *can* *physically* be taken off road, but if you've got it stuck off road through a break down, the warranty is voided, and the dealer won't fix it.


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## Love793

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Yes, it *can* *physically* be taken off road, but if you've got it stuck off road through a break down, the warranty is voided, and the dealer won't fix it.



Through neglect, or some other fault of the driver.  Again the vehicle is intented to drop supplies and pick up people, not follow tanks through a battle run.  If you as a driver are aware of the vehicles capabilities/ physical restrictions and don't try to out drive the truck you won't require recovery.  On the other hand if you try to cross a swamp.... I'd call that negligence and you should be held responsible.


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## 21trucker

I recently took the course for the MILCOTS. This is what i took from the course; 

The maint folks will be given computers to plug into the truck and check fault codes (yes, the same computer your local GM dealer does for the same). This will allow maint personnel to inform the dealer of the problem, and as well as check and make sure the repairs were done.

This same computer, is like a big brother. Say you were in an accident with a MILCOT, and the MP's had little to go by for whatever reason, they could plug same computer into the truck and find out how fast you were travelling, what actions you took just before the accident, etc. Kind of like a black box.

So if you think your going to get away with doing donuts in the mall parking lot in the middle of the night, in theory, they could track you down (day, time, speed, vehicles actions are all recorded in the vehicle computer). All they have to do is go to dispatch and find out who drove the vehicle on this day and this time. (   )

So drive responsibly and defensively, as we all should!!


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## old medic

hmm,

Milcots:

move people,
pick up supplies,
are four wheel drive
based on the chevy pickup truck (thus the acronym)
are issued to the reserves ...........

Sounds an awful lot lick they replaced the CUCV's


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## McG

old medic said:
			
		

> Sounds an awful lot lick they replaced the CUCV's


It would be more accurate to say the PRes' Iltis have been replaced by a vehicle that should have replaced PRes' LSVWs.

Too bad there are no MILCOTS lined up to replace the LSVWs in the reserve units.  A standard cab version would be ideal for this (unlike the more common crewcab MILCOTS), and it would simmplify driver training & vehicle maintenance problems.


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## chrisf

The line milcot has the same payload (clack) as the line LSVW... though the truck itself is different from the other milcots... (Double rear axle)


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## Pte.M13

I imagine they could load a pod on the milcott just like they have the clack... sure would make this sig op happy if they did.. hell if your working with NCCIS gear, you could even use the cargo milcot really... shame they won't trade us our LS's for more


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## chrisf

Of course, doing so would limit the mobility of the dets... the linemen are already pretty angry about the milcot line truck... fine if you're only laying line along a road, but it's not as if that's the only place line needs to go...


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## Fishbone Jones

Quote from Just a SigOp:
*though the truck itself is different from the other milcots... (Double rear axle)*

or dual wheels? Don't think I've ever seen a six wheel, three axle pickup.


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## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Quote from Just a SigOp:
> *though the truck itself is different from the other milcots... (Double rear axle)*
> 
> or dual wheels? Don't think I've ever seen a six wheel, three axle pickup.



LandRover makes them.  I believe that there was one in contention for the Iltis/LUVW replacement.

GW


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## Fishbone Jones

Ya know George, I was going to say "except the Long Landy" but it's not a pickup in the true sense of the word, and I figured most would know the difference. I guess they're not keeping you busy enough with your out clearance and stuff, huh? Hell, I'd just come in at lunch and hang around the mess. What are they gonna do, fire ya. ;D


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## Pte.M13

right... no offroad.. another unit that will remain un-named i know already went and tested thier new milcott.. blew all four tires... i have no idea... but they did. ofcourse they wern't offroad tires.. needless to say i'm sure it never went over well, but thier millcott is back in the parkinglot now.. so they got it back after thier fun run..


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## Love793

Pte.M13 said:
			
		

> right... no offroad.. another unit that will remain un-named i know already went and tested thier new milcott.. blew all four tires... i have no idea... but they did. ofcourse they wern't offroad tires.. needless to say i'm sure it never went over well, but thier millcott is back in the parkinglot now.. so they got it back after thier fun run..



Sounds like operator error to me. (Negligence maybe?)


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## Pte.M13

yup, though the tires they come with i guess arn't so good offroad, not that we can go offroad anyways... *sigh* why do they do this too us  nice new trucks, can't do anythin with em...


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## Love793

You're right the tires aren't the greatest for x country use, but all 4.  Sounds to me like abuse. 1 or 2 is usually "accidental", 4 however is not.  Again sounds like someone trying to out drive the truck.  You'd think that after breaking all their Xmas toys they'd get the point ;D.


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## chrisf

recceguy said:
			
		

> Quote from Just a SigOp:
> *though the truck itself is different from the other milcots... (Double rear axle)*
> 
> or dual wheels? Don't think I've ever seen a six wheel, three axle pickup.



You are correct, and that's what I mean, you'll have to forgive me if it was the wrong terminology, as that's what I've always heard it referred to as (Though i never could understand why)


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## old medic

MCG said:
			
		

> It would be more accurate to say the PRes' Iltis have been replaced by a vehicle that should have replaced PRes' LSVWs.




Agreed. That was just my dry humour.


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## Wizard of OZ

recceguy said:
			
		

> Quote from Just a SigOp:
> *though the truck itself is different from the other milcots... (Double rear axle)*
> 
> or dual wheels? Don't think I've ever seen a six wheel, three axle pickup.



Dodge has one in the works called the T REX six wheel drive and all that


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## doka_man

some of you are talking about what you think the new vehicles would be but i personally think that we should get the lamborghini LM002.i know you are probally saying that a lamborghini is really not practical but those of you who know ur cars would know that in 1977 lambourghini had a compitition with AM for the military contract.AM came out with the humvee and lamorghini came out with the LM002.the only reason AM won was because the humvee was alot cheeper but the LM002 is probabally a better truck for the military life.sorry i couldnt figure out how to put a pic on
i am not all that great with computers but just search google images if you want to see what they look like.


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## muskrat89

> The basic military version was a four seater that was stripped down to the basics and had gun ports in the roof above the rear seats. There were six seater variants and some open top models. Civilian versions were equipped like a home on four wheels. Every luxury was included but even so it did not capture the imagination of many buyers and was not considered a great success. The LM002 did see some small measure of competition, a factory backed racer was even to enter in the infamous Paris Dakar race in 1988. However this project was put to rest because of financial problems the company was facing at the time.
> 
> The Lm002 was first shown in 1982 and later in production form in 1986 when it entered production. It is hard to ascertain the exact numbers of LM002s that were produced but it seems that over 300 were created, with almost half of these seeing service in the Saudi Arabian Army. The rest went mostly to private buyers and a smattering of other armies make up the rest. The final model was produced in 1992. Trying to buy one these days would involve a trip overseas and a large wedge of cash to secure one as most would cost the same as your average house. This isn't such a bad proposition since someone has to put GM Hummer buyers in their place.



http://www.car.co.nz/4wd.asp?articleid=5215

Just in case someone thought doka_man was RTFO


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