# On asking questions & hostile dog-pile replies.



## Vimy_gunner (25 Nov 2009)

karl28 said:
			
		

> MCG
> 
> Good post and I am in agreement with you .   As a Civy I tried to read more than post it actually does help you get the feel of the site  .  You can also  tell this by the number of years that I have been on this site and the post that I have done .      I think the problem with any internet based forum is that there are a few posters who believe that because there not face to face with some one they can behave any way they want .
> I personal believe that behavior like this is sad and hopefully through continuing carefull watch of the Mods we can correct anything like this and keep army.ca the way it is a great place for information on the Canadian Army .



  This is from what I've seen, the army's number one recruiting tool and many come here to decide whether to apply or join.  The disposition should be happier. 

I've spent hours upon hours of posting and reading my favourite motocross and hockey forum and some of the responses received by posters here, make those sites look pg rated.  No question is a dumb question, well some are, but very few from what I've read.  Considering how often policies, rules, etc within the CF change, an answer given a year ago can be quite irrelevant.  A recent poster had his head chopped off by a mod for asking a question that was answered (in 2004).   

In my short time on these forums, I've spent quite a few hours researching and could spend many more hours without even coming close to knowing everything I want or need to know.  

I do have a life and at a certain point, straight answers are needed.  I read through an entire thread of about 40 pages and the thread starter was "throat punched" because after reading through it, he still didn't receive a clear answer.  I actually went back to read his question, it wasn't answered, but he was told that we won't baby you, use the search function and read back in the thread, your question was answered.  It wasn't answered.  

Your trying to set a tone where you want to help people out so that they feel they actually want to join.  Some will refuse to spend four hours looking at one thread hoping for an answer, but you might be turning away a great soldier in the future by not offering an easy answer.  If it's a stupid question, it must be an easy answer.  So take the same time you would to berate someone and give that answer.  The more people posting on the forum that know the answers to those "silly" questions, the easier it becomes for all the more knowledgeable posters.  

I was sick in bed for nearly three weeks with the swine flu and gained some much needed information from using the search function, but most of the time, I'm way to busy with school and a full-time job to spend hours and hours reading through old threads.  I'm sure there are others like me who don't have the time to look for an answer and aren't too lazy to use the search function.  

A forum is a discussion forum, yet threads are locked down in the middle of a discussion about the given subjects for no logical reason.  Nothing bad is being said, no vulgar tones or language, no badmouthing other posters, but appeared to be locked down because by the sounds of it, the mod grew tired of reading the discussion.  

If everyone is more friendly, maybe the mods and experts don't have to answer everything.  I've already answered a few questions myself and the answers were given as quick as the "throat punches."  If you know the answer, answer it.  The more people with knowledge using the forums, the more posters who can help.  Thus, actually reducing the work load of mods and long time posters.  That's what I've experienced on other forums.  Much more friendly.  You go to sportsnet.ca hockey forum and you ask a question I saw the other day "what position does Ales Hemsky play?"  If a question similar to that is asked here, lol, clear the room, it's gonna blow.  Shockingly, despite a forum full of hardcore Edmonton Oilers fans, we realized that he was a new fan and gave him a quick answer.  A future season ticket holder perhaps?  Every Oiler fan helps keep the team going.  Every member of the army or future member is going to have an impact on its future.   But, if we had given the "you retard" how can you be a fan and not know that answer, he would have maybe jumped to another team.  Instead the Oiler family grows.
The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married   

I've tried to not be offensive or say anything out of line on this thread.  Just trying to be honest and helpful in my experience in the category of "new poster."


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## MasterInstructor (25 Nov 2009)

THANK YOU!


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## ltmaverick25 (25 Nov 2009)

I am in agreement with alot of what Vimy_gunner is saying.  The fact of the matter is, there are likely quite a few Canadians out there that would make fantastic sailors, soldiers or airmen/airwomen that are not going to spend hours searching forums for information.  Frankly, it is much easier to just ask.  I know alot of members would be tempted to respond "if they are not willing to spend time searching then they are not the type of person the CF needs"....  I beleive that line of thinking is faulty.  I think that a little more compromise on our part from this point of view would better serve the CF over the long run.


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## MasterInstructor (25 Nov 2009)

This is exactly what I was trying to get to but my thread was locked. Maybe my choice of words weren't as good. Thanks again.


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## Scott (25 Nov 2009)

Vimy_gunner said:
			
		

> This is from what I've seen, the army's number one recruiting tool and many come here to decide whether to apply or join.  The disposition should be happier.



You DO realize that this is a private site, not affiliated with DND, riiiight? If we have become a 'tool' for recruiting then I welcome that but it is not at the behest of the taxpayer and therefore we can have whatever disposition we like, one that has been discussed to death here, you're just putting new spin on it. 



> I've spent hours upon hours of posting and reading my favourite motocross and hockey forum and some of the responses received by posters here, make those sites look pg rated.  No question is a dumb question, well some are, but very few from what I've read.  Considering how often policies, rules, etc within the CF change, an answer given a year ago can be quite irrelevant.  A recent poster had his head chopped off by a mod for asking a question that was answered (in 2004).



First, if you want to present recent history to back up your claims at least have the decency to link the thread you're mentioning. I have limited time to come on to the site, do my regular reading and also try to find some time to help run the site. So if you've got a gripe then be specific. Just saying that some thread got locked with mention made that the question was answered in 2004 gives me zilch and also serves to stop me from caring any further.

Second, this is not a hockey site or a motocross forum, full stop.

Third, what makes you so expert on how much CF policy changes? Have you ever considered that the person answering a question with 'your question was answered in 2004' might just be an SME? 



> In my short time on these forums, I've spent quite a few hours researching and could spend many more hours without even coming close to knowing everything I want or need to know.



That goes for everyone. Patience is a virtue...as is affinity for the search function. We don't keep saying it because it's good for our health or to inflate our post counts.



> I do have a life and at a certain point, straight answers are needed.  I read through an entire thread of about 40 pages and the thread starter was "throat punched" because after reading through it, he still didn't receive a clear answer.  I actually went back to read his question, it wasn't answered, but he was told that we won't baby you, use the search function and read back in the thread, your question was answered.  It wasn't answered.



You make no sense here. You say the thread starter (original poster) was throat punched and told to read back through a thread he started? I am not going to try any further here, if you have a beef then link me to the thread so I can see for myself. All you are offering is conjecture.



> Your trying to set a tone where you want to help people out so that they feel they actually want to join.  Some will refuse to spend four hours looking at one thread hoping for an answer, but you might be turning away a great soldier in the future by not offering an easy answer.  If it's a stupid question, it must be an easy answer.  So take the same time you would to berate someone and give that answer.  The more people posting on the forum that know the answers to those "silly" questions, the easier it becomes for all the more knowledgeable posters.



What?

If you need your hand held and hugs passed out all the time then you'd better think twice about the CF as a career. In fact, there might be many you should think twice about. Oh my, but now I have crossed the line into being all mean spirited, haven't I?

Have you ever considered that the CF has gone on just fine without your contribution thus far and will likely continue to do so in the future? You might THINK you could be a great soldier but it really matter little until you step up and prove it. If you want to do that then you'll follow the same steps that everyone else does and you won't go thinking you can do it before actually making the attempt. This attitude severely tires me.



> I was sick in bed for nearly three weeks with the swine flu and gained some much needed information from using the search function, but most of the time, I'm way to busy with school and a full-time job to spend hours and hours reading through old threads.  I'm sure there are others like me who don't have the time to look for an answer and aren't too lazy to use the search function.



You're the exception rather than the rule here, thanks. We get the odd complaint about this but with over 20, 000 members getting two to three complaints a month is no biggie to me. Want a better guarantee of happiness? Buy a Remington Razor.

Have you evcer thought that the other posters here do much in their every day lives as well and do not want to see the boards further cluttered with kife like this? No, you didn't.



> A forum is a discussion forum, yet threads are locked down in the middle of a discussion about the given subjects for no logical reason.  Nothing bad is being said, no vulgar tones or language, no badmouthing other posters, but appeared to be locked down because by the sounds of it, the mod grew tired of reading the discussion.



Once again, you offer no links so I offer no explanation. And even if you did link me you are not owed anything. I normally would explain out of courtesy but your courtesies have run out.



> If everyone is more friendly, maybe the mods and experts don't have to answer everything.  I've already answered a few questions myself and the answers were given as quick as the "throat punches."  If you know the answer, answer it.  The more people with knowledge using the forums, the more posters who can help.  Thus, actually reducing the work load of mods and long time posters.  That's what I've experienced on other forums.  Much more friendly.  You go to sportsnet.ca hockey forum and you ask a question I saw the other day "what position does Ales Hemsky play?"  If a question similar to that is asked here, lol, clear the room, it's gonna blow.  Shockingly, despite a forum full of hardcore Edmonton Oilers fans, we realized that he was a new fan and gave him a quick answer.  A future season ticket holder perhaps?  Every Oiler fan helps keep the team going.  Every member of the army or future member is going to have an impact on its future.   But, if we had given the "you retard" how can you be a fan and not know that answer, he would have maybe jumped to another team.  Instead the Oiler family grows.
> The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married



Have fun on the Oilers forums then. There were no resources like this when I joined and many here didn't know such a thing as the internet when they joined. We all made it just fine. Foolish would be thinking that someone's reception on an internet forum could chase them away from the military, especially if they 'know they have what it takes' and all that, yeah?



> I've tried to not be offensive or say anything out of line on this thread.  Just trying to be honest and helpful in my experience in the category of "new poster."



Mmmm hmmm. Read your post again and then re-read your last comment a few times and THINK about what you said.


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## matt101pwn (25 Nov 2009)

Sounds good to me.


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## George Wallace (25 Nov 2009)

[rant]

I find that the people who complain the most about the Tone and Content on this site are the ones who are too lazy to have read the Site Guidelines and to do any reading of any of the topics that may pertain to their particular questions.  They quite often claim to be university students, who should know how to conduct Research, but don't seem to have two clues as to how to do so on this site.  They claim that they are too busy to SEARCH, or too busy to use correct spelling and grammar, or too busy for a multitude of other reasons, that they want the rest of the site members to bend over backwards and give up their time and enjoyment to do the Research for them.  Sorry, Chumps, but I would also like to read the posts on this site for my own pleasure and information, instead of doing your work for you.  Your lack of maturity and initiative will not do you well in joining the CF in any way, shape or form; but thanks for coming out.

[/rant]


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Nov 2009)

> They claim that they are too busy to SEARCH, or too busy to use correct spelling and grammar, or too busy for a multitude of other reasons, that they want the rest of the site members to bend over backwards and give up their time and enjoyment to do the Research for them



.......and then they spend hours here surfing the forums and writing massive tomes, but are 'too busy' to search for an answer......or read the guidelines.

*Let someone else run the planet today, enjoy the ride for awhile.*


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## Mike Bobbitt (25 Nov 2009)

This particular point has been discussed numerous times, and always seems to go in a circle. (Ironically, a search would have lead to some of the previous discussions. )

While I'm always open to feedback and to reviewing our existing processes, those who are new to the site have to understand that we've already been down this road and spent a great deal of time researching the options.

There's actually a lot of irony in Vimy Gunner's request to simply answer his questions because he doesn't have time to search. The first and most obvious one is that if you don't have the time to search, what makes you think others have the time to do the research on your behalf? Even if others already know the answer, it would take their time to seek out your question and compose a reply. Given that in many cases, the info is already here, it's easy to imagine that would be a waste of their time.

To me, a statement like this smacks of entitlement: My time is more valuable than your time.

It's quite possible that was not the intent, which leads to irony #2. You may not be coming across the way you intended. In your post to the "Tone and Content" thread. That's ironic, and may indicate that you need to review your posting style.

Irony #3 is a bit more subtle. Let's say someone wants to know about the CF's policy on drug use. They _could_ search. The info is there. I make no claims about how easy it is to find. It may take an hour of searching and reading to find the specific information you want, but I guarantee you in this case (and in many others) the information is already here and accurate.

The other, easier option is to make a new post and ask. Assuming someone considers your time more valuable than their own, you can head off and do more important things while they reply. You have your answer, problem solved. Now try to imagine this scenario multiplied out tens or even hundreds of times, which is exactly what history shows will occur. We end up with the same questions posted over and over here. What's worse, you'll have a wide variance in responses. Some will be informed, articulate and accurate. Others will be conjecture, off topic or misleading.

Now imagine that this has all occurred *before* you showed up here, and that you're willing to take a few minutes to search. In this scenario, your search will yield pages of results, with varying degrees of accuracy and applicability. In this case, the user who is willing to invest a bit of time in their question is punished by those who are not.

Those who know me know that I never espouse an approach where "good" behaviour is punished, especially if "bad" behaviour is rewarded in the process.

Our approach - and I've yet to be convinced it's not effective - is to shut down or redirect repeat questions so that the information here can be as complete and accurate as possible. This not only facilitates searching, but encourages ongoing participation. A simple 2 post thread with a question and answer does not have the same 'richness' as a 40 page thread which covers many aspects related to the original query.

Now, are we completely successful? Certainly not. There are many long, rambling threads that unfortunately go nowhere. These are the bane of our collective existence, and the Staff are constantly tracking down and culling these threads. (See recent complaints about locking and deleting. ) If you see a thread that has no intrinsic value, has not been answered appropriately, or hampers good search habits, please report it to us and we will deal with it.

Don't forget that this is a community, not a service. If you want it to be effective, you need to participate.

In the end, I am open to feedback and even to changing the system, as I mentioned above. However the proposed changes would have to be an improvement to the current system and frankly, that case hasn't been made to me yet.


Cheers
Mike


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## the 48th regulator (25 Nov 2009)

Mike,

If I may use someone else's words, in my feelings to your post;



			
				MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> THANK YOU!




dileas

tess


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## mellian (25 Nov 2009)

If one cannot find what they are looking for with the forum search tool, then try using google to search the forum instead. ie: searching for...   whatever site:forums.milnet.ca, and then all the results are from the message board only. 

I am not sure if Simple Machines has it as a feature or mod, but maybe have blog/forum tags where one can categories certain threads. It can help narrow down the search. As to who is allowed putting tags can either be the Staff only, or members can help tag existing and new threads.


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## MasterInstructor (25 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> If one cannot find what they are looking for with the forum search tool, then try using google to search the forum instead. ie: searching for...   whatever site:forums.milnet.ca, and then all the results are from the message board only.



Thanks for the idea! Works way better!


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## GAP (25 Nov 2009)

Mike

An excellent comment....thank you


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## Michael OLeary (25 Nov 2009)

Vimy_gunner said:
			
		

> The army is a family, this forum is filled with members of that family and future in-laws (new posters) wanting to join the family.  Not a part of that family yet and others are like me and want to be.  Don't throw us to the pavement.  I rather like the thought of having a second family before getting married



So insightful, and yet ironic in its repetitiveness.

We Are Family

As you spend time here' you'll be amazed at how much ground we've covered, both as an information resource on the Canadian Forces, and as a social structure.


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## Loachman (26 Nov 2009)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> The other, easier option is to make a new post and ask. Assuming someone considers your time more valuable than their own, you can head off and do more important things while they reply. You have your answer, problem solved. Now try to imagine this scenario multiplied out tens or even hundreds of times, which is exactly what history shows will occur. We end up with the same questions posted over and over here. What's worse, you'll have a wide variance in responses. Some will be informed, articulate and accurate. Others will be conjecture, off topic or misleading.



Repetitive questions with repetitive answers also clogs the Search Function, often making it harder for those who use it to find what they're looking for. There are a couple of Mods who spend a fair amount of their _*valuable personal free time* _ consolidating, merging, and cleaning out redundant threads and posts in order to keep things workable.

If you think that your time is worth more than theirs, feel free to publicly justify your presumption.


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## matt101pwn (26 Nov 2009)

Sounds good. I appreciate everyones help on the site. I have gotten alot of information on this site and it has helped me alot. Continue to do good work everyone!


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## medaid (26 Nov 2009)

Why thank you for your permission.

I shall indeed to continue to offer my advice in a manner appropriate to the questions being asked.

I'm glad someone has finally authorized me to do so!


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## mariomike (26 Nov 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Continue to do good work everyone!



Thanks, Matt!


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## matt101pwn (27 Nov 2009)

Ahaha you guys are funny. Thanks again and no problem you guys do a great job.


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## Vimy_gunner (29 Nov 2009)

Just for the record.  I never started this thread, but glad to post a quick response.

I had written out a long post, but decided that it was pointless to post it as everything I had to say about making the forum better, was in the original post.  The original thread starter, who has named me the successor asked for the advice of posters.  I gave my advice on how to improve an already awesome forum filled with helpful people.

I've received an immense amount of information from being on the forum and never once have I personally attacked anyone, despite receiving them myself in this thread and others.  I won't respond to that as I feel there is a level of class to adhere to.  If I'm asked to openly give my opinion, it should be taken into consideration, but it seems that is not the case.

The forum doesn't decide for me whether I want to join or not.  I'm already in the process and I'm looking forward to it.  In my life experience, I've learned there are good and bad apples in every corner and I expect nothing less from the Army.  I suspect there are many who agreed with my comments, but kept their mouths shut, because they knew how it would be taken, given the way I was personally attacked.

At any rate, to all the good soldiers out there and on this forum providing helpful information to those on this site, I thank-you!  Looking forward to being part of the family  

Cheers!


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## Scott (29 Nov 2009)

Vimy_gunner said:
			
		

> Just for the record.  I never started this thread, but glad to post a quick response.
> 
> I had written out a long post, but decided that it was pointless to post it as everything I had to say about making the forum better, was in the original post.  The original thread starter, who has named me the successor asked for the advice of posters.  I gave my advice on how to improve an already awesome forum filled with helpful people.



Did you read any of the responses given or just see that you were "attacked"? Much of your advice HAS been given, HAS been considered, and HAS been dismissed as unneeded. Go read Mike's post again, hmmkay?



> I've received an immense amount of information from being on the forum and never once have I personally attacked anyone, despite receiving them myself in this thread and others.  I won't respond to that as I feel there is a level of class to adhere to.  If I'm asked to openly give my opinion, it should be taken into consideration, but it seems that is not the case.



Read my last. Read my other post. Provide links to everything you claim or STFU. I can't be bothered trying to chase it down and I do not take you at your word, no one does. Link it or let it go.



> The forum doesn't decide for me whether I want to join or not.  I'm already in the process and I'm looking forward to it.  In my life experience, I've learned there are good and bad apples in every corner and I expect nothing less from the Army.  I suspect there are many who agreed with my comments, but kept their mouths shut, because they knew how it would be taken, given the way I was personally attacked.



And I suspect many more disagreed with your comments or found them to be a complete waste of time. Glad you still can't see wat we have said to you in reponse that is based on experience here.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Nov 2009)

Just to dog-pile on a thread about dog-piling....... :-[

Lad, I haven't even heard your name until I read your post here which in turn made me curious so I read this post.



			
				Vimy_gunner said:
			
		

> I played professional soccer for many years along with College soccer and what we did would make BMQ seem a cakewalk at times.



..and if I had to make a judgment call I would say you are posting like a complete tool. In over 7 years and 10,000 posts not once have I, or would I, compare my job/hobby/etc. to something I haven't even done, or been to, yet.
It is just unbelievable that you would state that kind of kife and then rant on about being called on it. Good luck in your career, and I hope that your real life persona is far more mature than your internet one.
Bruce


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## brihard (29 Nov 2009)

Well hell, guess I'm going against the grain here, but in ways I agree with the original poster.

I've been here since 2004 if I recall correctly, and in that time I've seen plenty of people ask simple questions and get the ubiquitous 'rainbow reply' and be told to use the search, for simple questions that probably most people here could answer or point them in the right direction on in _far less_ time than it would take said individual to search and to actually understand what he's looking at. I've seen the 'dog pile' plenty of times. Usually someone comes in, asks a question, gets told to search by two or three people, comes back and says something along the lines of 'well, it's just a simple question', or 'I tried searching and couldn't find it', gets dogpiled, earns a verbal, thread gets locked, and we never see him again. Or some variation thereof. Sometimes said new guy acts like a dickhead and earns the reproof. Most of the time he just retreats with his tail between his legs.

One of the frequent comments in these threads, after the admonition to search, is "Read the site guidelines". That's all well and good- but if you simply point your browser to http://www.army.ca, _neither the guidelines, nor any reference or link to them appear anywhere on the front page_. Nor does reference ot the guidelines appear in the registration agreement when setting up an account. There is simply no obvious indication to a new member, unfamiliar with the site, that there is a set of site guidelines they should be perusing. Now, a couple of individual forums do have links to the guidelines stickied at the top, and I make allowance for that, but in general a person using a website is going to take the 'path of least resistance'. Probably one quick search, and if they can't find what they're looking for or interpret the search results (more on that later), then they'll probably just register and ask the question. It would be understandable for a new member to assume he has no business poking around in 'milnet.ca admin'.

A few points;

First, whoever posted the suggestion about googling within this site: brilliant. Frankly, the search function built into this forum software is crap. It seems to literally just look for occurrences of words without taking relevance into account. yes, you can go into advance search and put specific phrases within quotations; you can search for specific date ranges, but this is of limited help.

Second, telling the person to search is predicated on them knowing enough about the subject to know what they're searching _for_. We assume a familiarity with terminology or jargon, but hell, for someone who doesn't know anything about the military most of what's talked about here is baffling. 

Third, and I quote, 


			
				Scott said:
			
		

> You DO realize that this is a private site, not affiliated with DND, riiiight? If we have become a 'tool' for recruiting then I welcome that but it is not at the behest of the taxpayer and therefore we can have whatever disposition we like, one that has been discussed to death here, you're just putting new spin on it.



Yup, granted. We are not an official site. And yet here we are, right out of the guidelines:


			
				Guidelines said:
			
		

> First and foremost, we're all representatives of the CF. We may not want to be, but ultimately, we don't have the luxury of choice. The truth is when you post a message even on an unofficial site like this, your comments reflect upon the CF. That's not to say we can't bemoan the current state of affairs - it's a soldier's age old right to complain. But let's keep it clean and dignified.



If someone I'm talking to in the course of daily life asks me something about the military, do I tell them to go take a hike down to Slater street and check out the CFRC? Or, if I have the minute of my life to spare, do I answer their question as best I can based on the knowledge I have at hand? Sure, I could tell the guy to go home and google it, but I primarily see my role in such cases as fostering interest in, and disseminating accurate information about the CF to someone who's curious. I take the same approach on this site.

I'm not defending this individual member specifically. I haven't reviewed his posting history, I don't know whether he has a valid grievance _personally_. But he correctly identifies a trend, one that's also been discussed in 2006 and 2008. Mike made another thread about exactly this subject in 2007.

I don't expect to sway any opinions with this, but at the same time I won't have this kid thinking that no one here agrees with him in any way, or has anything to offer him except 'If you need a hug, STFU and consider another job'. I refer people to this site pretty frequently, and always with the caveat that as a new member they can NOT expect to be well received if they simply show up and ask a question. I refer them to search and to the site guidelines. It pains me that I feel it necessary to warn people about this site even as I direct them to it.

Don't get me wrong, I love army.ca- but I do because I've been here long enough to have made and learned from the mistakes and to understand how the place works. If the mission and commander's intent of army.ca is to inform and to discuss, is it not at least possible that there's some amount of tail wagging the dog when dogpiling and new members remain enough of an issue to have generated so many discussions? The way I see it, everyone who loads up this site and asks a question has at least shown enough of an interest to be looking into the military. Why shouldn't we humour them?


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## muskrat89 (29 Nov 2009)

> Why shouldn't we humour them?



*You* were offered an opportunity to "humour them". Did you take it?

It's amazing how many members, new and experienced, don't think an action is egregious enough to utilize the "Report To Moderator" function or a PM to Mike, but are happy to pile on (ironically) to threads about Moderator heavy-handedness months or weeks after the fact.

I am not one of the more active Moderators on Army.ca but I sure do get tired of having my volunteer performance here scrutinized and criticized on such a regular basis. I can't imagine how it must feel to spend as much time as some of the others do trying to help. We're humans not robots. We have families, problems, bad days like everyone else.

You don't like how something was handled? Report to Moderator or PM Mike. If you're not willing to do that, it couldn't have been much of a big deal after all.


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## brihard (29 Nov 2009)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> *You* were offered an opportunity to "humour them". Did you take it?
> 
> It's amazing how many members, new and experienced, don't think an action is egregious enough to utilize the "Report To Moderator" function or a PM to Mike, but are happy to pile on (ironically) to threads about Moderator heavy-handedness months or weeks after the fact.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I hadn't seen that thread. I will be looking into that. Though I'll point out that I 'humor' new members whenever I see a question that's within my knowledge and I answer it. I wasn't, until now, aware that we have a mentorship program for new members.

It also doesn't have to be any formalized process, or group membership. I'm talking about day to day interaction of members. The way we talk to or redirect new guys who come in with the wrong approach. Biting one's tongue before going off on a guy for asking a question or daring to raise an objection publicly.

None of this is a huge deal or crisis or anything, and I don't think anyone is trying to suggest it is. That said, it's a continuous, ongoing process to improve the services this site offers, and the behaviour, tone, and decorum of posts and replies. I certainly don't exclude myself in this.

You guys do a great job, and you don't get enough kudos for that, so I'll take the opportunity now to thank you. None of what I've said has been out of anything but an honest interest to help make this place a bit more accessible to new members- it sure as hell is not intended as a stab against any of you.


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## Michael OLeary (29 Nov 2009)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've been here since 2004 if I recall correctly, and in that time I've seen plenty of people ask simple questions and get the ubiquitous 'rainbow reply' and be told to use the search, for simple questions that probably most people here could answer or point them in the right direction on in _far less_ time than it would take said individual to search and to actually understand what he's looking at. I've seen the 'dog pile' plenty of times. Usually someone comes in, asks a question, gets told to search by two or three people, comes back and says something along the lines of 'well, it's just a simple question', or 'I tried searching and couldn't find it', gets dogpiled, earns a verbal, thread gets locked, and we never see him again. Or some variation thereof. Sometimes said new guy acts like a fool and earns the reproof. Most of the time he just retreats with his tail between his legs.



And how many times since 2004 have we, the staff, tried to encourage members to step up and give responses and links and simple advise to simple questions, instead of sitting back to "let the staff take care of it"?

I'll link this thread again as an example:

We Are Family


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## brihard (29 Nov 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And how many times since 2004 have we, the staff, tried to encourage members to step up and give responses and links and simple advise to simple questions, instead of sitting back to "let the staff take care of it"?
> 
> I'll link this thread again as an example:
> 
> We Are Family



Absolutely right. And again, my critique is not levelled at staff in particular, but at membership in general.


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## X-mo-1979 (29 Nov 2009)

People coming onto this site gotta realize to whom they are posing the question's. You are receiving answers from people who may not even be in the Canadian Forces. Or people who still comment on their previous job (10 years ago) which has changed so much they wouldn't recognize it.

The information you get here may be helpful but it is not official.

The information here is provided by a very small sliver of the CF. There are some excellent folk on these boards. There are also soldiers you would never want to associate yourself with. Can you tell the difference? Sometimes these people spouting erroneous information get corrected. However sometimes due to OPSEC or regular ol' stuff you don't post on a public forum, they do not. Keep that in mind also while reading for answers.

If you want fast information, your looking into the wrong line of work  :nod:. 

Ask the recruiting center! These people are PAID to answer your repetitive questions.They are also real tangible people,with ranks, with a responsibility to get you CORRECT answers. 

And don't worry about this being like the "family". The only people you will find in the real military whom snip's and roll's eyes at a question is people who have been promoted past their level of competence. People who use aggression as a cover for their lack of knowledge (I.e incompetence)on what your asking.

And if this is being used as a recruitment cache, then the CF need's to really sit down and talk about why people are going to Army.ca to find answers.

I know the world is changing with more online media playing a role in recruitment and everyday military life. However the CF has to acknowledge this. There should be no reason they don't bring back their official forum and advertise it. as just that. The official one, not to be confused with this one.

Folk's this is nothing more than a collection of army(military) guys (females) (some fake some real) with ZERO responsibility to YOU. 

I prefer to look at this site as a news agency with a military twist. Come on see whats happening around the world and see some members idea's and comments. Nothing more.

Want real answers go to the CFRC or email/chat to a recruiter.


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## brihard (29 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Folk's this is nothing more than a collection of army(military) guys (females) (some fake some real) with ZERO responsibility to YOU.



Pffft. You've forgotten, there's no women on the internet. It's science.


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## the 48th regulator (29 Nov 2009)

Meh,

I'll Just bite my tongue.

dileas

tess


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Nov 2009)

For me...I know I help provide a _voluntary and sometimes thankless_service and for the most part I believe I as well as the other DS do a great job here. The only person I need to justify anything I do is to Mr Bobbitt.


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## Mike Bobbitt (30 Nov 2009)

So let's get right down to brass tacks here.

Dogpiles are bad.

In fact, they are the biggest problem we have today. And as Brihard's references indicate, it's not a new problem for us which means that despite our considerable efforts, we still have some ground to cover.

I've talked about the sense of entitlement that new members have when they show up here, expecting that others do their legwork for them. I do recognize that they sometimes don't have the knowledge, experience or means to do that legwork themselves. In that case, direction from a senior member, a Mentor or the Staff is meant to guide them on track, but not necessarily spoon feed them an answer. (In part, because when they inevitably have a follow-on question, we will have set the expectation that someone will be along shortly to answer it - that may not be realistic.)

However there is another sense of entitlement that exists here and is no less harmful. Having shaken down the new users for failing to search or follow the Guidelines, it's only fair to point out that this problem has another side, which lives here daily.

The other piece to the 'dogpile puzzle' is the senior members who feel they are entitled to pounce on new users for their mistakes.

We know by their very nature that new members here will make mistakes - they're learning the ropes or in many cases haven't taken the time to learn the ropes.

Our response to that can at times be aggressive. Donning my kindergarten psychologist hat, I'd suggest that this is because the senior members get very, very tired of seeing the same old blunders over and over again.

But that still doesn't mean bashing is the order of the day. I've always held that if you have nothing positive to add, just move along. If the question languishes unanswered so be it, but that's still better than starting a dogpile, even if it's under the guise of providing helpful direction.

Yes, this may be the hundredth time you've seen this same, inane question asked. But for the poster, it's the first time they've asked it and they can't comprehend the animosity that comes with the response. Imagine if you phoned 411 and the operator berated you for not knowing the middle name of the person you're looking up. Would you think it professional of them? Would you lash out at the operator? Would you phone back?

I realize that it's a poor example for a variety of reasons, but I think it's still roughly accurate.

Now I'm not trying to paint everyone with the same brush here. The majority of users are helpful the majority of the time. However sometimes frustration gets the best of us and instead of simply walking away, we jump in with steel-toed boots. I know this is done as an effort to protect the community we've built here, knowing that a forum full of repeat questions quickly becomes useless.

Unfortunately, taking an aggressive tone with new members does more damage than good.

I can hear the grumbles now... Mike's gone soft they're saying.  The reality is that we can - and should - continue to shut down repeat and misguided "first posts" and snuff out trolls as we've always done. The important part is in how we do it. There's no need to take a parting shot, call someone down, suggest they'll make a poor addition to the CF, etc.

I'm not suggesting this is a problem of epidemic proportions. There are plenty of examples of us 'doing it right' out there, but of course these don't get dredged up as examples, so things always seem skewed to the negative side of the argument. But this is good news... It means that we have a manageable in front of us.

If you've read this far through my wandering ramble, odds are you're not part of the problem. The difficulty will always be reaching those who don't invest the time in their community to learn more. In fact nothing I've typed so far is new, nor do I expect any of it to materially change how things operate here. However there are a couple of things we can do.

The first is obvious and should be easy for us all: Lead by example.

When replying to an ongoing discussion if you see someone who's trolling, hit the report to moderator button, or ignore it. Anything else will simply add to the derailment. It _is_ possible to reply to a thread without addressing that one post which tried to pull it off track.  By giving the troll air time in the form of a reply, we invite them to participate further and keep pulling that thread away from the original topic. We've all seen this many, many times and I'm sure we can agree that having a Staff member drop that one 'trolling' post would be much more effective than breathing life into it through a string of replies.

If you have advice for the original poster, great... fire away. But if you're just looking to start or jump in on an existing dogpile, know that you're as much of the problem as the original poster.

In fact by their very nature, the new user is new, and as we already know probably hasn't taken the time to understand the nuances of our community. On the other hand, our senior membership understands it well and as such we have higher expectations of our them. If we want our new members to follow the Guidelines, we need to set that example right from the moment we reply to their first post. Coming out with guns blazing simply sets the tone and they reply in kind.

It's far better to show new users the ropes than showing them the door, but if you can't do one without the other, show some restraint and leave it for someone else.

Brihard, you also mentioned that you never agreed to the Conduct Guidelines on joining the site, and that they're challenging to find on your own. When registering, you are required to accept (and implicitly read) the registration agreement. This is typically just a duplication of the Guidelines, though from time to time an upgrade will overwrite them with a generic version and I'll forget to update them.

The Guidelines are also at the bottom of every page, linked under the "Unofficial site, not associated with DND." text, and appear randomly as a "news" item in the upper right.

Additionally, each new member needs to agree to the Legal Terms though these are not about conduct as much as being a simple CYA.

Having said all that I agree with you that the Guidelines are probably not as easy to find as they should be, especially for a document that is so core to our community.

With that in mind, I'll put out a call for suggestions. How can we make the Guidelines more visible without overpowering the membership? How can we tune the language of the Guidelines, or update them to accurately represent our direction? Are there other things we can do?

Rather than preaching to the choir yet again, let's see if we can make some changes that will reach those who need to understand our community better in order to participate effectively in it.


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## Greymatters (30 Nov 2009)

Is there an existing process for dealing with senior members who participate in excessive dogpiling?

(other than locking subject threads that is...)


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Nov 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Is there an existing process for dealing with senior members who participate in excessive dogpiling?
> 
> (other than locking subject threads that is...)



Anyone who contravenes the guidelines is subject to the same consequenses as everyone else.


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## GAP (30 Nov 2009)

I think the warning/PM system is adequate.....

The senior members are very aware of whether they are crossing the line or not, even if they are caught up in the heat of the argument.

As for a suggestion on the guidelines....highlight them in lime or aqua so they stand out against the background.....right now they blend in so well, you hardly notice them.....


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## bullitt (30 Nov 2009)

As a new member of this forum, and soon new member of the CF (waiting for swearing in ceremony) I can say that this forum has been an invaluable tool for ASSISTING me with some of my career decisions. Yes sometimes not all the answers are easy to find, and sometimes there are no answers, but such is life.
I've come to realize that this site can provide an insight into what one can expect during life as; or life leading up to a career in the Canadian Forces. Could I have done it without this site? I sure the hell hope so or I do believe I am screwed this summer! Did it make my life easier knowing what to expect? Absolutely! 
I will be the first to admit that I don't want to ask a "stupid question", or bother someone with a question that has been answered fifty times or so. That being said there are a million and one questions circling around my head that for the most part I keep to my self, confident I will find out in do time, but it is hard not to want to know about the unknown! I do love the site ( that's why I  subscribed) and I thank all the serving, and ex CF Members who have directly or indirectly helped me out....... just my two cents for anyone that cares!


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## Kat Stevens (30 Nov 2009)

Nice one.


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## mellian (30 Nov 2009)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> With that in mind, I'll put out a call for suggestions. How can we make the Guidelines more visible without overpowering the membership? How can we tune the language of the Guidelines, or update them to accurately represent our direction? Are there other things we can do?



Can always have a new member forum of sorts, or use one of the existing ones as such, or an introduction forum. Then have all new members post at least once there before they are allowed to post anywhere else on the forum. Can set to be done automatically (at least in vbulletin anyway). 

In this forum, can have the guidelines, summary of recommended good new member behaviours, FYI on asking questions, quick FAQ slash road sign thread to other forums on milnet, etc.


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## mariomike (30 Nov 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> Can always have a new member forum of sorts, or use one of the existing ones as such, or an introduction forum.



This is a good one:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/23216.0


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## Greymatters (1 Dec 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> Can always have a new member forum of sorts, or use one of the existing ones as such, or an introduction forum. Then have all new members post at least once there before they are allowed to post anywhere else on the forum. Can set to be done automatically (at least in vbulletin anyway).



I think Ive seen this one on some other forums but cant recall where - activities for new members were restricted to general discussion rooms or something like that...


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## Michael OLeary (1 Dec 2009)

That may work if we presume that every "new member" is a recruit applicant looking to learn what their options are to join the CF.  It will be accepted somewhat less enthusiastically by a MCpl, WO, Capt, or LCol (_et al_) wanting to join on the spur of the moment in order to respond to some specific and timely technical or doctrinal debate.

The problem is that there are no simple solutions.


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## Mike Bobbitt (1 Dec 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The problem is that there are no simple solutions.



Very true, unfortunately... if it was simple we'd already be doing it.  In lieu of an easy solution, we're working hard to strike a balance, and I think for the most part, we have it. Always room for improvement*, but we're roughly on course.

* The recent suggestion to promote the Guidelines is a good example. A small, simple change but one that may have a tangible effect.


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## Greymatters (1 Dec 2009)

Instead of a link to the guidelines, what if the guidelines popped up for every new member, requiring a check box or other form of acknowledgement before allowing the user to continue on to the forum?


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## Mike Bobbitt (1 Dec 2009)

That's exactly what it does, when a new member registers.


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## Journeyman (1 Dec 2009)

Maybe as an additional reward for having MilPoints deducted, the member's next 5 posts cause a Guideline window to pop-up, which must be acknowledged to continue.


As a variation, a series of pop-ups --- 

"Are you sure this says what you mean?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to, 

"Did you spell check?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"Is this likely to get you flamed in response?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"So you're sure you don't mind if people think you're a dumbass?" Clicking 'Yes' leads to,

"OK, I tried to help you.....  :brickwall: "  and then the message posts   ;D


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## matt101pwn (2 Dec 2009)

I had posted thanks to someone's post who gave me insite on what I needed to learn, and literally 1 hour later I was told by multiple people "To shut my mouth and be on recieve the next 5 years" just my experience, thought i'd share.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> I had posted thanks to someone's post who gave me insite on what I needed to learn, and literally 1 hour later I was told by multiple people "To shut my mouth and be on recieve the next 5 years" just my experience, thought i'd share.



Show me the thread where you were told "To shut my mouth and be on recieve the next 5 years"


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## the 48th regulator (2 Dec 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Show me the thread where you were told "To shut my mouth and be on recieve the next 5 years"



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13652/post-894062#msg894062

All he told you Matt was unless you understand what was stated, don't post.  Until you have a good five years, and with that experience, you can form an opinion that would be useful to post.

You are enthusiastic, however, you got to understand that posting everywhere does not help out much of the discussions..


dileas

tess


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Dec 2009)

Matt, I just read the post you quoted and, if you had made ANY kind of effort at all to check what you are posting before you hit the "send" button, you would have found that the post in question  makes just about every grammatical error known to mankind.....................as a collective you will find the military is very big on such things and, when you won't make the slightest effort yourself, but wish to ask others already here to give the effort of answering your questions,.......well sometimes folks get a little off.

......and more so when you have already been "talked" too about it.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Dec 2009)

I'm the first to admit that I take advantage of, for lack of better wording, the military SMEs on army.ca.

Between working 8 to 4, working out twice a day, taking care of two dogs a wild 4 year old a 1 and a half month old, martial arts 2-3 nights a week, chasing down a landlord that's months behind in repairs, PMC of a mess, admin for my section on my own time (as well as planning outside of work activities) I don't always have time to sift through 18 pages of threads to find an answer to a question. Sometimes it's nic to hop on, ask a question and get an answer and then get back to my retarded schedule.

What really burns me is when a smartass has the time to reply "Use the search tool, NOOB" but thats it. What a waste of time.  If someone feels the need to chime in  (obviously having time on their hands) to tell someone to use the search tool at least give the person a bone and post a few links to searches or something. (I find many members already do this, which is great)

I mean yes if someone just joins the site and 14 out of 18 threads started by them are all asking questions which can be found in searches, sure. Give em a running dog pile. They need to be sorted out. Sometimes it's nice to ask a question and get an answer though.


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## Mike Bobbitt (2 Dec 2009)

It's always nice to just ask a question and get an answer. What's not as nice is to always have to answer the same question. 

While I'm sure the specifics are different for everyone, I imagine the majority of us here have schedules much like yours. Popping in to post a quick 'please use the search' is just as nice for those folks as popping in to ask the question is for you.

If others have the time to do the legwork for you great; and I know we have some very helpful folks out there who can and will do that from time to time. If 'throwing a bone' by doing a quick search for someone is just as easy as posting a rebuke, then it's probably just as easy as posting the original question.

By the same logic, if you have time to frame up the question properly, wouldn't you have time to search?

All playing devil's advocate, as I know where you're coming from, and have been guilty of it myself from time to time. As you pointed out, there are SMEs here who wouldn't have to search at all... the answer is on the tip of their tongues. Still, this approach requires that these SMEs are generous enough with their time to post an accurate and complete answer to your question, which may take more time than a search in the end.

Each time they do this, they 'burn out' just a little bit more, until they realize that what they get from Army.ca is far less than what they're giving. At that point, we tend to lose them so I hate to lean too heavily on them like this. A better use of their time would be generating FAQs, editing wiki pages, etc. Then the response to many questions can simply be a link to a well documented response. Or even better, this approach may head off some questions completely.

That's why we've made the wiki editable by any registered user, and that's why many of the FAQs are started or maintained by regular users. (The Staff are here to police and organize, but are not here to be the SMEs on all things military.)

It all goes back to the same thing I've been saying: involvement

Without involvement by our membership, we quickly wither and die. I've seen a few new members use the site to work their way through the system and come back much later to 'repay their dues' by helping out. That's the perfect system in my mind.


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## George Wallace (2 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> ...........  If someone feels the need to chime in  (obviously having time on their hands) to tell someone to use the search tool at least give the person a bone and post a few links to searches or something. (I find many members already do this, which is great)



On that point, what do you have to say to a reply like this "thankful newbie"? (This is a rather tame example, as opposed to some of the more rude ones that have been posted.)



			
				Zyllon said:
			
		

> Thanks  ____________ but those treats are really old and almost 100% of the link on there had been removed from Force.gc.ca
> 
> most of  the information are sooooo 2005.... I don't think I made any mistake asking my question here because it is related to the topic...
> 
> ...



Even when some people are give direction to a topic that covers their questions in detail, they get snotty because their question wasn't answered.  Look at this example of a guy who had to start a whole new topic on something that is covered in the topic directly below the one he started:

Army.ca Forums » The Recruiting Office » Recruiting 


    Another education question.                      3 Replies                      Today at 07:06:31
Started by CBAtt                                            83 Views                        by FDO    

_____________________________________________________________________
    Education And Joining The CAF                   193 Replies                   Yesterday at 09:06:10
Started by SteelMag « 1 2 3 ... 13 »                16031 Views                 by Bruce Monkhouse  


That is what this is all about..........lazy people who want to be spoonfed eventually grating on the nerves of other site members.   This site is a good source of info, and even if that info may be dated, it is often still relevant.  I am sure at some time when this site was first created someone made a statement that the sky is blue.  Now that statement is over ten years old, but it still holds true.  Why must someone discard info here that wasn't created in the last 24 hours?  How often have we seen this?  Why must we put up with it?  We have seen people ask questions and then we have also seen people "with attitude" ask questions.  I would say that in the majority of cases the membership has been quite obliging to new members, until such time that some may show "attitude" and then we see the dogpiles.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Dec 2009)

Good popints George.

If someone starts getting an attitude tell them to STFU  ;D

Honestly if someone starts giving an attitude that's when i loose all interest in helping the bugger out and figure their on their own.


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## Larkvall (2 Dec 2009)

I haven't been a member of this forum very long, but I am amazed at the volume of repeat questions. I am also bewildered why some people would choose to come here for answers instead of offical sources.

Example

Can I bring X to BMQ? Well if somebody on here says yes and you show up and it turns X is not allowed you are going to look like a fool trying to explain it.

Policies are always changing. Information on this site needs to be taken with a grain of salt and should not be considered a substitute for information from offical sources.


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## matt101pwn (2 Dec 2009)

I can understand someone asking the same question more then one time. But I don't, I ask once when I was new and now use the Search function. I have also made a new post after recieving feedback from many members. Yes, I am new, Yes I can be annoying sometimes, but I try my best to act in a responsible manner as best as possible. No, I am not going to like flip on you as some others do,Because I respect you all. You have more experience, and more knowledge then I do. So you deserve respect. Also, I have posted a new topic on Barack Obama sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan, I forgot who said I have made dumb posts, but I have learned, and I am starting to do research and clearly reading everything before I post. The link to my new topic is-- http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90862/post-894738#msg894738

Please comment if you wish. Thanks again;Matt


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## Mike Bobbitt (2 Dec 2009)

I can only assume that the volume of questions coming to us here indicates that the official information is either not available, or (more likely) those looking for it perceive that it's more easily obtained here. That is, many would rather anonymously post a question here and risk getting an inaccurate reply than identify themselves to 'the system' with a question, in case it's seen as silly.

Also, the official response may not include tips and tricks from those who have recently been there, done that. There's nothing like getting info from someone who was just through the meat grinder to feel comfortable about what lies ahead. A recruiter is not likely to provide that level of insight... I don't imagine it's their job to do so.

In a sense, people come here precisely because we're _not_ the official source of information.


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## Otis (2 Dec 2009)

You would be correct Mr. Bobbitt, it isn't a Recruiters job to hold anyone's hand through the system.

We DO attempt to help when we can, and I have been known to 'push' files through for people who have made a good impression, and sometimes we will even give out hints and tips and tricks to aid in the process (i.e. HOW and WHAT to study for an aptitude test) but we don't always have the time or the motivation to do so.

Just like every other human being, we have our moods and tempo and issues, and the onus is on the applicant to get all of the info and do the research ... after all, they ARE the ones looking for a job. 

ARMY.CA is an excellent resource for these people to ask the dumb questions and do some of the research ... even better than a lot of other resources because there ARE so many people fact-checking, looking over the shoulders of other posters and willing to call BS when they see it. I think this makes this site a much more reliable resource as long as people are willing to read entire threads and not just take out a point or two that they want to see ...

 :2c:

Otis


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## George Wallace (3 Dec 2009)

What can you do?  We have everyone complaining about how their questions aren't answered the way they would like.  How about this one?



			
				Bluechip said:
			
		

> Hi, my question is regarding the availability of the Infantry and Armored MoS. Iv searched the site, used the search feature and and unable to find a topic answering my question, so apology's if this has been answered,
> 
> After applying, my interests being Infantry, or Armored, I was told that the combat positions (Including Artillery, and Combat Eng) are at a surplus (Full) until April when they release the new information regarding jobs being hired for. I'm curious if anyone else has heard the same thing?
> 
> ...



And you wonder ?


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## Michael OLeary (3 Dec 2009)

Coyote - Post # 1 - "Canada needs Attack Helicopters"

Does anyone see why we get frustrated?

Anyone?

Bueller?


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## aesop081 (3 Dec 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Coyote - Post # 1 - "Canada needs Attack Helicopters"
> 
> Does anyone see why we get frustrated?
> 
> ...



That post was pure genius. What your problem with it ?


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## Mike Bobbitt (3 Dec 2009)

Actually the first and last posts are both good examples*. One of the problem, and the other of the solution. I think we have to resign ourselves to the fact we'll never stem the tide of repeat questions... it's something we'll just have to live with.

But we do seem to be getting better at handling these situations. I've seen a few senior members and Mentors jump in positively recently, and I think it's an upward trend. Here's hoping it is, and thanks to those who have taken the time to make it work that way. 

* Sorry Danjanou... your post is funny... didn't mean to leave it out.


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## Michael OLeary (3 Dec 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That post was pure genius. What your problem with it ?



Which part?  The part he copied from here? Or after he'd already posted it here?


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## CallOfDuty (3 Dec 2009)

I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers. 

   Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
  Just a thought.


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## dregeneau (3 Dec 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Which part?  The part he copied from here? Or after he'd already posted it here?



And also here:

http://www.armaholic.com/forums.php?m=posts&p=64397#64397

Edit: I just noticed that on this last link, there is a different profile name.


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## George Wallace (3 Dec 2009)

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers.
> 
> Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
> Just a thought.



Some of these teenagers are in their Thirties and never left home.


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## CallOfDuty (3 Dec 2009)

lol...real winners eh


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## Michael OLeary (3 Dec 2009)

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the issue, and had a bit of a realization here....Keep in mind guys who we're dealing with here for the most part.  One of the worlds most annoying type of person(no offence!),lol.............teenagers.
> 
> Perhaps we expect too much common sense from a group of people who are infamous for not having any common sense, life experince, maturity, etc..etc?
> Just a thought.



You mean that same group that produces the people who say we should teat them like adults based solely on the fact that they can legally drive, or vote, or smoke, or join the army.  How about the ones that smoke dope, and then act surprised that their conscious illegal actions have repercussions when they go to the Recruiting Centre?  And it's certainly not all of them, just the few, of whichever age-group, that manage to out themselves as less than mature, or less than diligent in helping themselves to the information here, before asking their own original question about pilots and eyesight, or infantry and education, or whether they get to choose their own personal weapon, or .... [_insert favourite eye-roll topic here_].  We just hope that each new poster tries to achieve the average level of common sense before adding another bad-width sucking simplistic repetitive question or suggestion to the forums. 

And this type of topic is becoming another one of _those_ subjects.


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## MARS (3 Dec 2009)

My two cents:

A good thread, which I think will periodically be revived as we continually get new members.  This issue is never going to disappear completely.

I think most of the issues could be solved by courteous and helpful suggestions to adapt, and in some cases, correct behaviour of junior members.  By behaviour, I mean the common issues of Poor Posting Protocol (P3)™   from our perspective.

So long as this site remains public, we will never completely stem this trend.  Nor do I think any of us actually believe we will.  However, we are equally as unlikely to reduce it to a level that fails to irritate some of us.  That is a function of our military bearing (for those with military experience).  We generally do not suffer fools gladly.  But I reiterate – it is a public site.  If we want to make it private, make it pay only.  I guarantee you that will sort out the vast majority of our issues.  We can hope that people who come here will have a certain set of values and maturity level – but we cannot “expect” it.  For goodness sake – it is the INTERNET.

People fear power - understandably so.  I don’t see much discord or angst when a regular member of this forum dog piles someone.  In fact, usually a Mod steps in, exercises the appropriate power and shuts it down.  I think the issue is when Mods dog pile.  By that I mean, when a Mod is posting in a non-moderator capacity.  It can be difficult for observers to separate the function, even when it is explicitly stated either in the post or in the tagline below it. Postings by Mods – even in non-mod capacities – carry a certain set of expectations.  No way around it.  Maybe their post wasn’t even an honest-to-goodness dog pile post, but owing to a lack of non-verbal and verbal cues, it potentially sets off the others and perhaps gives de-facto and implied permission.  The Mods have tremendous power – ultimately, the power to ban someone from this site.  That power, seemingly unchecked, causes people to get defensive, perhaps irrationally so, but that is, in my opinion, the result.

What we lack are the verbal and non-verbal cues that are critical to effective communication.  I don’t think technology currently exists to overcome that.  So, we the membership must adapt to that reality.  Seeing someone’s age, facial expression and hearing their tone of voice when they ask me “We have a Navy???” will determine the nature of my response.  A 10 year old will get a different response than the university student, who will get a different response than the new immigrant to Canada.  I have friends in civilian occupations – doctors, scientists, etc – that are the recipients of what must certainly sound like dumb questions from me.  They fill fascinating occupations that I couldn’t even begin to understand without the years of education and experience they possess.  The military is sometimes viewed the same way.  Perhaps even more so because we have the coolest toys, things that little boys dream about – tanks and ships and fighter jets and the like – things that most civilians only see in pictures.  It is incumbent on us to realize this and deal with it.

The lack of non-verbal and verbal cues is also an issue when someone writes “use the search function” or some variation.  Even adding the words “have you tried to” can come across as sarcastic and unhelpful.  I can say that phrase half a dozen different ways – in sarcastic, helpful, caustic, indifferent, inquisitive or exhausted tones.  Emoticons can help here, but are not always used in the manner they were originally intended – to add context.  Often they are used to reiterate a tone that was already clear in the statement that preceded them.   Internet communication requires effort on both the sender and the recipient.  Effort by the sender to phrase things properly, so as to remove as much ambiguity as possible and effort by the recipient to realize that their first impression of the response might not be the right one.  But effort requires just that – effort, and is measured in time and action, and not all of us, myself included, have the time or inclination to provide that effort every time we log on.  This is, in my view, a role for mentors as I explain below.

The “We are Family” thread has obvious and excellent advice to new members:

•	We can’t discuss that here, it is an Operational Security (OPSEC) issue 
•	Your question is poorly worded, but I think you mean [this], and therefore your answer is [this] 
•	Please don’t use MSN speak, it reflects poorly on the professional communications skills we prefer and encourage at Army.ca.  For now, the information you are looking for can be found [here]. 
•	Your answer can be found in [this] FAQ [here] 
•	Your question has been asked before; you should start your reading with [this thread]. 
•	You can find answers to these questions using the [search page], try a search using [these terms] 
•	The best person on the forums to answer your particular question is [this person], try contacting him by PM or wait a few days for him to find the thread 
•	Sorry, but you can’t just join as a [sniper / JTF 2 / etc.], please start with the [Recruiting FAQ] and with [searches] on these terms ...

But wow – 7 of the 8 tips require “effort” on the part of us to direct the member to the correct info.  The real and accepted limitations on our time have been raised throughout this thread.

Another issue I see is an inability to simply ignore something.  Mods and mentors – and anyone else with correct info to add – should step in when incorrect or inaccurate info is posted.  But I don’t think most of the dog piles are a result of that.  They appear to be the result of stupid things being posted or being posted stupidly.  I think most of these things – like the helicopter thread - are ultimately harmless in the big picture.  Annoying, certainly.  But harmful to our goals here? I am not so sure.  If bandwidth is an issue, then delete the photos or the whole thread, send the guy a PM and briefly explain that.  If there is a danger of someone taking away bad info, lock the thread.  But if it just some user talking out of his a$$, well, it is a public forum – what did we expect?  We don’t have Mods who are paid to be here and might thus be expected to spend 8 hours a day “working” on the site.  And if we are too busy to police the thread, then we have to let some things be, some of the time. 

I think a solution - I use that term loosely – is for the Mentors to step in.  Again, none of the issues raised in this thread appear to have much, if anything to do with gross and egregious violations of the site guidelines.  They are related to expected and desired protocols for this site.  Some of those protocols are part of the guidelines, but violating them does not, in my opinion, pose a grave danger to the success of this site.  As a mentor I have had a roughly 50% success rate in PMing some of our more notable members of late.  The tone of their PMs is amazingly different than of the public post which caused some sort of issue.  Not perfect tones, but different, in a good way.  Well, 50% is better than 0%.  I admit, I have been remiss in my mentor responsibilities of late – blame it on Staff College and pre-deployment preps.  But I reiterate that I think these issues are a perfect example of the Mentor function and what it was designed to accomplish.

Routine Orders for the past 4 months indicate an increase in new users of approximately 400 per month – sustained.  We receive around 100 000 unique visitors per month and sustain about 2000 active users each month. I don’t know how that membership stacks up against other comparable websites, regardless of whether they deal with military issues or not.  I do think they are statistics that represent a successful website on the whole.  In addition, I think – and I have no data to back this up – but it appears to me that our website has a very active and involved membership.  Perhaps more than most?  I dunno. What I am getting at it is that people feel a sense of attachment here that they may not feel to the other forums they are involved in. Which is perhaps why the issues that are raised in threads like this are such sensitive topics – because we care.

So, I think this website is and will continue to be a resounding success on the whole.  We continue to grow and we clearly remain relevant.  We can always do better, but to do so requires a constant effort that we simply cannot sustain all the time, which we realize and accept.  We appear to have reluctance to accept that, regardless of how often or prominently we post the terms of use, there will always be transgressions.  Simple Command thought process:  is this a problem?  If yes, is it my problem?  If not, then whose?  Let *that* person resolve it, be it a Mod or Mentor or SME.  We might do better to take a breath and ask ourselves if this is something that requires me to post a reply.  If it does, what is the most effective way to resolve the issue that concerns me?  Is my post really going to resolve the issue or am I posting simply to hear myself speak, and perhaps try to be funny?  Is my post going to encourage poor behaviour on the part of the rest of the membership – either because of my status or seniority or posting history?

Again, my two cents.  If you read this far, thanks for listening.

MARS

_Edited for grammar and clarity_


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## CallOfDuty (3 Dec 2009)

......very well thought out MARS, I agree with your thoughts.  +1


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## Greymatters (3 Dec 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe as an additional reward for having MilPoints deducted, the member's next 5 posts cause a Guideline window to pop-up, which must be acknowledged to continue.
> 
> 
> As a variation, a series of pop-ups ---
> ...



Thats actually not a bad idea - I think Windows Vista does the same thing, but on a permanenet basis...


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## matt101pwn (4 Dec 2009)

Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager. 

Thanks;Matt


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## Occam (4 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.
> 
> Thanks;Matt



Have you ever stepped on my lawn?   rly:


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## aesop081 (4 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.
> 
> Thanks;Matt



You dont smoke, drink or do drugs....good for you.
However :



			
				matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Personally I beleive you should wait till grade 12, get involved in the Military Co-op at your school, if you like the Military lifestyle, Co-op will put you in the Primary reserves, which you can then go to college, which the  military can pay for, and continue the reserves. Once you've done college, depending on your doploma/certificate you could become an officer, meaning more pay, more respect. Please correct me if i'm wrong.
> 
> Matt



Another example of why dogpiles happen !


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## gcclarke (4 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.
> 
> Thanks;Matt



Frankly, I don't really see there being any correlation between either refraining from or engaging in those activities you mentioned, and level of maturity. For the most part, it's your interactions with others that determine whether or not someone is "acting mature". 

To steal wikipedia's definition:



> Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate that a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate and adaptive manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctual, and is not determined by one's age. Maturity also encompasses being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act with appropriate emotion for the situation.



So, to the extent that someone can indulge to a level that it does not adversely affect their interactions with others, use of tobacco, alcohol, and some drugs is not in and of itself "inappropriate", depending upon the time and place when one chooses to do so, and in my not so humble opinion, does not indicate a necessary lack of maturity.

And before someone brings it up, yes I do believe that the use of illegal drugs as a member of the CF does certainly fail the "being aware of the correct time and place to behave and knowing when to act" portion of that definition. I don't think the same could always be said for all civilians. 

To wit, in my humble opinion, the person who shows up drunk at his grandmother's funeral is acting much less mature, in my not so humble opinion, than the university student who smokes pot once a month on the weekend.


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## Journeyman (4 Dec 2009)

Being mature is vastly overrated *** 

However, thinking before you type, and taking responsibility for your actions (including getting dog-piled) is not.


*** I guess; it's not really my strong suit.


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## CallOfDuty (4 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn.......after reading what CDN just posted( your quote on college/officer/respect/etc).......holy crap!!.   Dude, take the hint.  Stay in your lane and for gods sakes stop offering advice,when you clearly have no right to be giving it.  Just stop it.
  I'd love to see you approach Sgt or higher in any trade and ask them why they don't go to university, so that one day they might get more respect!


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## Loachman (4 Dec 2009)

> Quote from: matt101pwn on Today at 08:01:48
> Personally I beleive you should wait till grade 12, get involved in the Military Co-op at your school, if you like the Military lifestyle, Co-op will put you in the Primary reserves, which you can then go to college, which the  military can pay for, and continue the reserves. Once you've done college, depending on your doploma/certificate you could become an officer, meaning more pay, more respect. Please correct me if i'm wrong.



You are wrong.

The CF will _*not*_ pay for your education as a reservist. Becoming an Officer is no guarantee of respect. Not becoming an Officer is no guarantee of lesser respect.

Feel free to post about your relevant experiences or ask questions (once exhausting the Search Function of course) but please _*DO NOT*_ attempt to give advice about things outside of your knowledge again.

You have been gently cautioned several times now, but seem to have some difficulty taking hints.

We appreciate your enthusiasm and understand your youth, and you seem like a good kid so we are willing to cut you a little slack, _*BU*_T patience will run out eventually. Please do not push it.

What you are doing, to give you an illustration, is like walking into the teachers' lounge in your school and offering your principal and teachers advice about how to teach. How do you think that they would react to that?

Know when to post, and, more importantly, when _*NOT*_ to post.

Consider this your final unofficial warning.


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## CountDC (4 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> Being a Teenager myself, I'd like to put my two cents in. Personally, for myself I have never smoked,done drugs, or been drunk. The majority of teens do, but I like to think of myself as a mature adult. Everyone is welcome to their thoughts but I would just like to clear my name as a Teenager.
> 
> Thanks;Matt



Sorry matt but as someone that has done all three I will judge you on your posts rather than the fact that you have never done any.   Just because someone has not done any does not mean they are mature. Many didn't simply because they were afraid of getting caught by their parents.  Then again many lie about their drug usage when they are at the recruiting centre.

For the dog piling - I try to leave that to others (note I did say try) as much as possible although sometimes it is hard to resist. I can assure you there has been numerous times I have started a response and then closed out rather than posting so I can just imagine how annoying it gets for those that have been around for a long time to read some of the questions.  I think we need to face the fact that it is something that is going to happen, do our best not to get involved, report them to the mods when we see them and hope the mods will get around to locking them quick.

Finally  - thanks to all for running this site and putting up with the rest of us.


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## matt101pwn (7 Dec 2009)

I'm willing to take correction for my previous actions, but on a post about dog-piling you guys are doing a great job at proving the main point. I will think before I post, and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Dec 2009)

and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.
[/quote]

Pout if you want, however if someone came on here and asked about present school curriculum, then I would bow to your BTDT knowledge.

Just offer what you know.................


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## brihard (7 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> I'm willing to take correction for my previous actions, but on a post about dog-piling you guys are doing a great job at proving the main point. I will think before I post, and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.



*sigh* You're doing it wrong.

Just swallow your pride, bow out of this one as gracefully as you're still able, and read the PM I sent you.


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## CountDC (7 Dec 2009)

but I dith gooth.  My tongue hurtsss though.   ;D

carry on ladies


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## aesop081 (7 Dec 2009)

matt101pwn said:
			
		

> I will think before I post, and do my best to try to offer no advice like everyone wants.



While you are in the corner pouting like a 3 year-old, i will re-phrase that for you :

"I will think before i post and will only offer advice on things i know about and have experience with."


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2009)

I think we have covered all the points.

Those that understand what this is all about will understand.  Those who don't, probably never will.


Time to move on to more productive things.


Topic Locked

George
Milnet.ca Staff


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