# Segregation Pre-Unification



## Ex-SHAD (23 Apr 2011)

Prior to Unification, was there any form of official segregation in the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy or Royal Canadian Air Force?

The few incidents of segregation that I’m aware of:

During the First World War, there was an official policy that non-whites were not allowed to serve in combat, and instead were assigned to labor battalions.

Non-white ratings were restricted to stokers, trimmers and greasers (until I believe the 1920’s).


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

The "Black Battalion" of the CEF was probably less a matter of intentional segregation than it was of the recruiting approach to attract soldiers with established common backgrounds, whether that be hometown, family affiliation to "local regiments", or by trade. 

Examples of black soldiers serving outside that unit can be found.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

Obituary; Sydney Morgan Jones

http://www.learnquebec.ca/en/content/curriculum/social_sciences/features/missingpages/unit5/u5p112.htm



> Last of black N.S. veterans
> wounded at Passchendaele
> 
> Canadian Press
> ...


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> During the First World War, there was an official policy  that non-whites were not allowed to serve in combat, and instead were assigned to labor battalions.



 ???

Please link me to this "Official Policy".

I am aware that there was reluctance to allowing these soldiers to serve with whites, but am not aware of any official policy (or other) that actually did "limit" these brave men to service in a segregated Unit. Obviously debunked by the fact that many of them did serve in non-segregated Units; ergo, though it may have been discouraged --- no policy held them *to* service in *only* segregated Units (Units that did exist).

Seymour Tyler

My note: Seymour Tyler also went on to reinlist as soon as Britain declared war (WWII) on Germany in the Carleton and York Regiment. I remember my own father's sorrow at his passing (he was a member of the Br 93 Oromocto Legion) and our cadet corps observing silence for him upon his death while I was in high school.



> FREDERICTON (CP) -
> When the Carleton and York Veterans Association holds its reunion here on Saturday, an unobtrusive little black man will know the satisfaction of work well done.
> Seymour Tyler, president of this year's reunion committee, has known soldiering since the First World War and still is active at 78. A native of Saint John, N.B. he was born Feb. 22, 1897.
> "When the First World War came along, I quit school and enlisted," he said.
> "I landed in an outfit that was trained as infantry and could also handle most construction jobs _(my note: 2 Construction Bn?? - a segregated Unit). _  We landed in Liverpool after a crossing that took 21 days. We went first to Seaforth, then to Folkestone and soon crossed to Boulogne and went right up to the front.  I was later wounded at Vimy Ridge."



Pte Jerry Jones



> A "D.C.M." For A Truro Soldier
> A BLACK KNIGHT
> PTE. JERRY JONES, FORD ST., RUNS IN BUNCH OF HUNS - CAPTURES THEIR MACHINE GUN - FACETIOUSLY HANDS M.G. OVER TO HIS C.O.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## Dennis Ruhl (23 Apr 2011)

The liklihood of a black person being accepted into the CEF in the first 2 years of the war was close to nil.  Racism was simply part of the system with colonels having final authority on the matter.  I read a letter which I can't find from a colonel to Sam Hughes asking to get rid of his black recruits out of respect to his good white recruits.

http://www.dacosta400.ca/cavalcade/battalion.shtml

The one black WWI veteran I knew was conscripted and served in a regular unit.  Mind you that was in 1918.


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## George Wallace (23 Apr 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> The liklihood of a black person being accepted into the CEF in the first 2 years of the war was close to nil.  Racism was simply part of the system with colonels having final authority on the matter.  I read a letter which I can't find from a colonel to Sam Hughes asking to get rid of his black recruits out of respect to his good white recruits.
> 
> http://www.dacosta400.ca/cavalcade/battalion.shtml
> 
> The one black WWI veteran I knew was conscripted and served in a regular unit.  Mind you that was in 1918.



As the recruiting was done by the individual Militia units in those days, there would likely have not been any "National Policy" but left to the discretion of the unit Commanding Officers.  Whether or not a person would be accepted would most likely be dictated by the local biases of the time.  These prejudices were not firmly fixed on colour/race, but also on Religion, nationality, language, etc.   So depending on what part of the country one was in, their chances of being recruited would vary.


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## Dennis Ruhl (23 Apr 2011)

No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.

http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html



> Chief of the General Staff
> 13 April 1916
> Memorandum on the
> enlistment of Negroes in
> ...


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.



Be careful with what you're implying of the membership here.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

From this thread on the CEF Study Group:



> There were a few black soldiers scattered across the CEF in combat roles, the 1st CMMGB had one or two.





> About thirty Blacks served in the 26th (NB) Battalion at the front.



Also here:



> Other units had black men. For example, I have a photo of a man in the 41st, a Montréal battalion. I bet Toronto and other Nova Scotia units had a few black men here and there. I'd like to hear about more.





> I'm curious why Charles wasn't in the No 2 Constuction Battalion as from what I read, that was the only unit blacks were allowed to join. I have a photo of him in uniform and he was not a light skinned man, so he couldn't have been mistaken for anything but a negro.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/sub.cfm?source=feature/week2001/natnews/nov701

*Canada's Black Contribution and The Second Construction Battalion*



> At the outbreak of the First World War, black Canadians were turned away from recruiting stations across the country. Black people in a number of provinces viewed military service in wartime not only as a right, but also as a responsibility. They were not prepared to accept a policy that excluded them on racial grounds. Under persistent pressure, the Canadian military finally authorized the recruitment of an all-black non-combatant labour unit.
> 
> Recruitment took place across Canada, but the majority of recruits came from the Maritimes, mostly from Nova Scotia. Eventually, 605 men were accepted into the battalion, including 19 officers. On March 28, 1917, the battalion boarded the SS Southland bound for Liverpool, England. They eventually reached France, where they joined the Canadian Forestry Corps. Their commander was Lt. Col. D.H. Sutherland of River John, Nova Scotia and Hon. Capt. William A. White served as their chaplain. White was the only black commissioned officer in the British forces during the First World War.
> 
> ...


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.
> 
> http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html



Listen up; it takes a whole hell of a lot to offend me, but you've managed to do so. What you have linked below is not "National Policy".

The OP is writing a paper and has claimed there was "National Policy" which segregated blacks and would only allow them to serve in their own segregated Units. It sounds as if he is basing his paper on such a "fact".

What you've linked below actually shows exactly what I stated earlier --- that although non-segregation was discouraged, that it was *not * official policy that blacks could only serve in segregated Bns etc.

Official Policy is very, _very_ different than written discouragement - especially given the time period in question. In that era, to have put an "Official Policy" of segregation out there would have just been shrugged off by the vast majority of the populace as normal. Yet, today, I can't seem to find a single reference that details that Canada (yes, that's Canada vice the CF) had Official Policy that allowed blacks to serve in segregated Units only, not at the front lines and not in combat. What I am finding is a whole lot of examples that detail that though such service was discouraged, it was allowed; it must have been - else the examples I linked wouldn't have been wounded in batlles such as Vimy, Passchendaele.

I asked for a link to the "fact" there was official policy; now, if OP wants to base any writing on an unproven 'fact' that seems contradicted by cases being posted in this thread which indicate the opposite of his statement ... then that is up to him. Glad I'm not his prof 'cause that'd be a big fail from me without a reference to this "Official Policy" being embedded into footnotes etc.

Before you acuse me of anything or anyone else on this site, I suggest you read the OPs post, pull your thick skull out of your ass, and perhaps then you will be able to smell the roses.

-300 and as many a percentage as I can dock you; the mods having been way too nice.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

How's this for an official reference on the Empire's military point of view?

*Manual of Military Law, 1914*

(page 242)

_Coloured Troops_

_38.   Troops formed of coloured individuals belonging to savage tribes and barbarous races should not be employed in a war between civilized States.  The enrolling, however, of individuals belonging to civilized coloured races and the employment of whole regiments of disciplined coloured soldiers (a) is not forbidden.

Footnoted - (a) E.g., such troops as the Indian Army, the African troops of the French Army, and the Negro regiments of the United States Army._


In 900 pages on military law, that is the only reference to "Coloured Troops."


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

From the Great War Forum:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3935



> I have found a fourth Black Canadian who was KIA while with the 26th Battalion,CEF - Ralph Stoutley. Some time ago here in Canada there was a "movie of the week" made about No.2 Construction Battalion, the only Black unit in the CEF. It is unfortunate that 21st century political correctness was applied in the making of this movie.
> Viewers were left with the impression that nobody had ever heard of this unit, and the producers of the movie were revealing all. My thought at the time was how many Canadians could name any Canadian unit which served in WW1? Here in the small province of New Brunswick today, few citizens have heard of the 26th Battalion, which lost over a thousand men killed. Is it much wonder that a construction unit, of whatever race, which lost perhaps half a dozen dead (all through illness I believe), would be remembered by the general public? This battalion certainly performed a valuable role, but no more so than the dozens of other construction, forestry, and railway units.
> 
> The end result of the movie may be that No.2 Construction Bn might be the only WW1 unit Canadians can name, with the possible exceptions of the PPCLI and the Royal 22e Regt..


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## Dennis Ruhl (23 Apr 2011)

It was 1914-1916.  The CGS is discussing the inferiority of black people.  The CGS ran the show.  It took 2 years to get black people into the CEF.  The racism was blatantly obvious.  It's just history people.  We don't have to react to it or apologize for it.  The only thing we shouldn't do is deny it.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

No-one is apologizing, you need to stop believing you see truth where others do not.

The OP stated he believed there was an official policy. Neither he nor you have yet provided such a document. The evidence being shared obviously shows that black soldiers were not restricted from serving in combat units, no matter what the GOC's personal opinion (or that of any colonel recruiting a unit).


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> It was 1914-1916.  The CGS is discussing the inferiority of black people.  The CGS ran the show.  It took 2 years to get black people into the CEF.  The racism was blatantly obvious.  It's just history people.  We don't have to react to it or apologize for it.  The only thing we shouldn't do is deny it.



Uhmmm, wrong.

R. Winslow and Sam Morgan



> He enlisted in *1914 * with the engineers at Woodstock, N.B., and *transferred in 1915 to the Queen's Own Rifles of Toronto * with which he was wounded. The other hospital car porters are Sam Morgan, 779 Second Avenue, Verdun; and Jean Napoleon Maurice, 1087 Ste-Elizabeth Street, and James E. Thompson, 116-C Dorchester Street West
> 
> Between them, the four have 22 years of service in two wars with Morgan having served in both this war and the last one and spent seven months as a German prisoner 0 after the fall of France in 1940, when he stayed behind "to do a job" after the unit he was with had been evacuated.
> 
> Morgan got away from the Nazis (he won't say how) and was on hand at Dieppe to pick up five bullets in his right leg to go with face, hand and hip wounds suffered in the Great War at the Second Battle of Ypres with* the 48th Highlanders of Toronto which he joined in 1914*. At Dieppe he was with Field Security. He started with the Signal Corps at Toronto in 1939 and transferred to the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment.



Populace Statistics


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## George Wallace (23 Apr 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> No - the whole works were racist.  You sound like a bunch of white guys sitting around the spitoon congratulating yourselves on how tolerant you are.
> 
> http://www.alts.net/ns1625/conbat2a.html



Your example, as many have pointed out, tends to agree with there not being an "official" policy of segregation.  It is also a memorandum from "one" officer, although of a high rank, not necessarily holding the opinion of all.  

As for your statement, I find it in itself racist.  There is no need to call us that, nor is it necessary to be an "Apologist" for a society that has changed greatly since that time over a hundred years in the past.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Apr 2011)

Go here for Dennis constitutional tangent:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/100526.0.html


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## Zartan (24 Apr 2011)

The Canadian militia through most of its history was formed around ethnic lines - hence our abundance of Scottish, Irish, or at one time, units named after Queen Victoria. As the militia units became responsible for recruiting during the First World War, this unwritten policy, a belief in ethnic over national solidarity did play into the recruiting strategies of Canadian leadership. Yes, fully  black labour battalions were formed during the war. Black Canadians were, at the time, Canada's largest "visible minority," and this is unsurprising that wholy black units would come out of it. Attempts were made to raise a Jewish Regiment, and our most lasting success in the strategy of recruiting still lives with us as the Vingt-Deux. 

Was it racist that they were delegated to labour roles? Probably. The white Jews and Canadiens got to go into the infantry, but is that really a blessing? Certainly black men would get to fight in the infantry with their local units, just as members of smaller minorities, such as the Japanese and aboriginals, coming from smaller communities would be compelled to do by circumstance. The 10th battalion from Calgary had a number of Japanese soldiers, and our aboriginal snipers were the best in the whole war. The only Canadian group that would not find its way to the front were the conscientious objectors, and that had nothing to do with race.

This idea hasn't fully left us yet. I recall a proposal from a few years ago that an Aboriginal regular force unit should be raised. In other respects it has diminished, with the "Imperial" units disappearing from the roster and kilted units, instead of showing ethnic solidarity are more an instrument of attracting recruits.


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2011)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> Non-white ratings were restricted to stokers, trimmers and greasers (until I believe the 1920’s).



My father was an RCNVR Engine Room Artificer Apprentice ART-APP during the war. He was a Stoker on one coal-fired ship, but apparently, from what he told me, that type of engine had become rare by then in the Canadian Navy. Only one of the four ships he served on was coal-fired.



			
				Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> Prior to Unification, was there any form of official segregation in the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy or Royal Canadian Air Force?



If interested in wartime RCAF recruiting, I would suggest "The Cream of the Crop: Canadian Aircrew 1939 - 1945" by Allan D. English.:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/CFAWC/cdd/histworkshop/HistWorkshop-2008/Bio-English.pdf



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> From the Great War Forum:
> 
> http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3935



Edit: Quoting the Forum link, not Mr. O`Leary:
"Some time ago here in Canada there was a "movie of the week" made about No.2 Construction Battalion, the only Black unit in the CEF."

My paternal grandfather was in No. 1 Construction Battalion C.E.F.. He was wounded at Pachendale with them. So, I have done some family research on what little I can find written about No. 1 Construction Battalion.
I came across this on the internet. For what it is worth to the original poster, if interested:
"At the time, racism was so blatant within the military that when the battalion was formed, Ontario's all-white No. 1 Construction Battalion changed its name to avoid the association with black soldiers.":
http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v10n08a10.html
I had some good talks with my grandfather, and asked him a lot of questions about a lot of things, but I do not recall him mentioning the subject of No. 1 Construction Battalion changing its name because of this.


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## Michael OLeary (24 Apr 2011)

Kernewek said:
			
		

> As the militia units became responsible for recruiting during the First World War, this unwritten policy, a belief in ethnic over national solidarity did play into the recruiting strategies of Canadian leadership.



Militia units were not generally responsible for CEF recruiting.  The CEF was organizationally separate from the Militia (and from the Permanent Force).  This was by Sam Hughes' design to attempt to bypass the existing politics of those structures. Many CEF units formed using drafts from local Militia units, but that was due to the convenience of a ready supply of willing and trained troops.  Militia units then continued their own recruiting, and provided later drafts to new CEF units as they were raised. The use of Militia Armouries as recruiting stations, and the provision of senior personnel from the Militia to new CEF units as they were authorized no doubt blurred the lines, but the CEF was responsible for its own recruiting as new units were authorized by General Order.

This recruiting scheme should also not be confused with the evolution of similarities of unit (unofficial) names, similarity in badges, etc., which was used to attract recruits to new CEF unit on a basis of local affiliation to the local Militia units, but it was not the Militia units directly recruiting for or marching off with, the CEF.

The lines between the Militia and the CEF, then and now, is probably one of the least clearly understood aspects of the Militia's history.



			
				Kernewek said:
			
		

> Yes, fully  black labour battalions were formed during the war. Black Canadians were, at the time, Canada's largest "visible minority," and this is unsurprising that wholy black units would come out of it.



Only one unit was raised of black soldiers.



			
				Kernewek said:
			
		

> Was it racist that they were delegated to labour roles? Probably.



It was racist by today's standards, but not of those of the day.  We also have to be careful to assess the actions of our predecessors by their own cultural and societal norms. While we can compare those standards to our own we should be careful not to judge them against a standard that did not exist for them.



			
				Kernewek said:
			
		

> Certainly black men would get to fight in the infantry with their local units, ...



A man would have “fought with his local unit” if he enlisted with it before it sailed for England.  Once it was in combat, the reinforcement system would not necessarily have provided only men from the same hometown. Even later in the war when the regionally based Reserve regiments were created, they were provincially based, so the description “local unit” can be a very difficult one to define.


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