# The "Nursing Officer" Merged Thread



## IamBloggins

Does anyone out there have any information about the role of a military nurse (esp Army)?  ie/what sort of clinical stuff do they do? is it mostly managerial work? how likely is it that they‘d go overseas? where could one be posted? etc.


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## nhb388

Military Nurses are nowadays all civilian trained RN‘s. There are many RN‘s in the reserve Fd AMB‘s who are not employed as nurses, as they are not "Commissioned" nursing officers. NO‘s are all commissioned. Most are posted to HSOTU‘s, and there are NO‘s on prety much every deployment. Best of all, if you get accepted to a civilian nursing (Degree) school, you can join the CF and have schoolpaid for, while you are paid to attend school. Contact your local CFRC for details.


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## IamBloggins

Thanks! Do you know what sort of roles the NO‘s have on deployments? And when you say "pretty much every deployment," are we talking Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina,...? (What I‘m trying to ask for are examples of places that NO‘s are now if you know any)

Thanks again.


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## gj connors

Nurses can/are employed almost anywhere (though there are none on ships). While on my tour of Bosnia, our unit medical section was located next to the area sugical unit. Though we had no nurses with the UMS, the ASU had plenty. Next to meda‘s, nurses were the next plentiful medical support personnel. Nurses provide the same scope of skills as their civilian counter-parts (and then some due to the nature of military training/duties). Hope this helps.


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## Armymedic

No‘s...The bain of every good medics exsistance.

There are NO in Afgahanistan with the HSS platoon in Kabul,
In Bosnia 2 are tasked with the NSE in VKand some are at the 3rd role hospital for MND NW in Sipovo with the surgical team. Some stay for 6 months some shorter.

There are NO NO‘s with the battle groups, and Med Tech do all that nurses normally would do in Canada, but won‘t becuse of some licence thing when we are home.


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## brin11

X031/@711,

I had no idea there were no nursing officers on ships.  How is the medical structure set up there?

Jill


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## gj connors

Jill, on most (if not all) ships there is a physician‘s assistant (warrent officier) and a "junior" medical assistant (or now as were called medical technician - I‘m too long in the tooth and will always consider myself a medical assistant). The med tech is usually a mastercorporal or corporal. Though when I was on one the replenishment during a couple of MARCOT exercises with the navy some years ago (I am and always will be army LOL)the senior medical support personnel was a masterwarrent officier and his junior was a mastercorporal. These persons are the fronline of medical support/coverage and are highly trained (and I believe like most of us are). Though they usually have vioce-to-voice contact with a physician "onshore", they are first medical personnel to triage, screen, and treat patients.


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## fusilier955

are you able to not have a degree in nursing as a reserve officer?  must you be obtaining one? or can it just be a BSc without the nursing courses?  i have a friend that would like to know the requirements.


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## Fraser.g

For most Officer roles you can have a BA and get your scroll. There are several that require a specific degree.

For example, to be and engineering officer you must have an engineering degree or in the reserves be in and engineering school.
To work for JAG you have to be a Lawyer, To be an MO you must have done your medical school and your internship and finally you have to have a BScN to be a NO.

The scope is changing for NOs here and overseas. Stay tuned.


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## MedCorps

Ref Army Medics post: 

There ARE Nursing Officers on OP ATHENA (Afghanistan) in HSS Coy right now.   In fact there are about 5 of them (1 General Duty - Ward, 2 critical care - critical care and rresuscitationand 2 OR)   There also MAY be a mental health nurse also.      I know 3 of them personally and they are doing quite well there.   

There also is one hard Nursing Officer per Bde.   This is the Training Officer at the Field Ambulance.   2 Fd Amb in fact thas 6 Nursing Officers on the establishment.   (2 mental health, 1 Trg O, 1 NP (who is off to Haiti soon) and 2 NOs at the BMC (Lt and Capt).

There are currently 4 NOs going to Haiti.   Including a Major as the Senior NO and Resus NO.   

Depends when you where in Bosnia, but we had at least 2 GDNOs and 1 CCNO with the Role 3 (R3MIMU) hospital in Sipovo, and sometimes another 2 OR Nursing when it was Canada's rotation.  We also had a 2 NOs at the UMS in VK and another 1 or 2 in one of the other camps (TSG?).  

Reference Nursing Officers on ship... Nope none of them.  Not required as the PA and the Med Tech can sort out just about everything that comes along.  There have been NOs on ship when we place a surgical team on ship.  The last time this happened (that I know of) was for Gulf War 1.  We had a surgical team (c/o 5 NOs) on the AOR.  This is was also contempatecontemplatedLO (Haiti) but for a number of reasons was a no go (and thus an Advanced Surgical Team) is going out the door to be on the ground with 2 RCR UMS).  

The planning cycle is just about to start for placing a Advanced Surgical Centre (Sea) on the new logistics support shipsthe Navy is buying.  Due to the concept of this new piece of kit, we can attach a ASC right onto the deck.  There will be NOs are part of this establishment as there will be resus, critical care, ward and surgical care involved.  


Hope that helps. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## Armymedic

That would be me bad typing skills....

There were (are) many nurses in ISAF HSS platoon...
There were 2 nurses attached to the NSE in VK, and 3 attached to the role 3 MIMU in Sipovo on roto 13, but none with the Battle group. There were 2 in Tomaslovgrad but those postions disappeared with roto 9. 

As for right now with roto 14, I believe there is still 1 or 2 nurses in VK, but as the new MIMU has moved to Banja luka, I do not know if there are any Canadian nurse there right now.


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## yot

so overall, Med Tech will take the role as nurse?


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## MedCorps

In Banja Luka (BLMF) it is now a British Role 2+ facility (with some Dutch - RNLA I am told and no Canadians)  thus UK NO's / NCO Nurses will take over the nursing duties. 

MC


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## Armymedic

There was one Canadian Med Tech Cpl in BLMF when I left in Apr but, correct, no Canadians replacements for the Nurses.

As for Med techs taking over for nurses, not in that senario, but it can happen, similarly to the use of Engineers or Artillerymen to take and hold ground, which is a traditional infantry skill. While they are able to do the job, thats not what they are trained to do, and while the Med Techs might have the right skills, there is a lack of deeper knowledge and understanding thru acedemic training and experience learned in school the nurses have. Also because of some insider politik situation which is beyond my understanding, basic nursing skills are no longer taught at CFHSA to QL 3 med techs there by ensuring the place of nurses in the CF. Saying that there still are no nurses in true Role 1 (frontline) or VERY few nurses currently role 2 (Brigade Medical facilities)., which maintains a demand for Cpl and MCpl Med Techs to maintain some of those skills which flow into the admitted patient care role.


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## MedCorps

Agreed - Espcially in OOTW and/or on the noncontiguous battlespace there is a real risk of casualties been held at the role 1 / role 2 medical treatment facility because of a break down in the evacuation chain (for all kinds of reasons from enemy action to crappy infrastructure).  This is compounded by the fact that Canada has no dedicated air ambulance assets. 

Med Techs starting at the QL3 level really need to be taught some fundamental nursing skills in order care for the warrior past the inital pre-hospital stage.  I am not sure why the CFMS has moved away from these skillls (beyond my pay-grade).  Some of the best medics I know have an equal blend of paramedic skills, nursing / MIR skills (left over from the days of military - inpatient care mostly), soldier skills and social skills.   The Med Tech trade is complexed and people need to consistantly think outside the box.  I am also concerned at the lack of "military medicine" being taught to QL3 / QL5A Med Techs, but that is another topic all together.  

The civilian ambulance world is great, but the hospital is only about 10 minutes away in most cases.  Then you dump your patient on an "advanced" medical team of docs / nurses / RTs.   In war (or OOTW or training areas for that matter) this is not a reality and medics will almost always have care times of greater than 30 minutes.... if not hours before they reach the surgery team at the ASC.   A BMS holding policy can be 72 hours! (for non-surgical cases by doctrine, history also holds this true) that is a long time for a medic looking after a casualty not to have some basic nursing skills! 

Cheers, 

MC


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## Brad Sallows

Please don't confuse "holding policy" with delays in evacuation.

"Holding policy" (aka "evacuation policy) is not the length of time a facility might keep a patient before further evacuation.  It effectively defines a limit of treatment and care by setting an upper time limit within which retained patients should be returned to duty; all who can not be returned to duty within that time should be evacuated as soon as conditions and resources permit.  Evacuation should proceed (as uninterrupted as possible) until the patient reaches a facility which can provide the required treatment and recovery within its holding policy.  Even a theatre-level evacuation policy is typically short enough that most serious cases must be evacuated out of theatre.  This means the only long stop should be at a surgical facility to stabilize the patient for the trip, but the patient is still not held any longer than necessary to perform the surgery and recover sufficiently for continued evacuation.

If the Role 2 holding policy is 72 hours, a BMS will only retain and treat sick and wounded who are expected to return to duty within 72 hours.

For any holding policy much longer than a few hours, the point is correct: medics should have some basic nursing skills.


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## MedCorps

I guess I did not articulate myself well enough.  Thanks Brad for the clear up.   Yes two different issues.  

MC


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## Fraser.g

I agree that both the Regular Force Medtec and Reserve Med A hare sadly deficient in their nursing skills.
By employing more NOs at the Med platoon level they can pass on that information and skill set that they are missing.  

When non-medical (and some older medical pers) refer to Nurses and NOs they envision Nightengale and her lamp dabbing brows and comforting soldiers in the Crimea or in a controlled hospital environment. 
What they fail to envision is the advance practice nurse who can do much of the same functions of a MO or a PA under his or her own license and practice. The big difference is that A med Tec or Med A works under the licence of the MO or NO and not their own licence. 


I am now double hatting it within my unit as the Platoon Commander and NO. I work and keep my medical skills current in my job in a Trauma facility and the army has sent me on my HCA courses. 

This way the army gets the best of both worlds. A Reg Force nurse will only see a small fraction of trauma that I see on a daily basis not to mention all the specialty and complex care that is required.

Grant Fraser RN BScN CD


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## Armymedic

True enough Grant, 

But rare are those nurses who;

a, Have a clue about field ops, dispite the best efforts of the directing staff on the BNO course,
b, Actually want to get thier boots dirty, and
c, give two cents to actually training the medic in the nursing skills.

In eight yrs as a Medic in Petawawa, I can only count 3, but on the positive side I'll say, so far.
(BTW the most checked out nurses I have met were either reservist who do it full time, or ones who were troops and then went back to school) 

Anyway back to my point, If we med tech can fill that 2nd line care role...who will?


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## Fraser.g

The answer to who will fill the second line if the MedTec can't is simple. Reserve Med As who have been trained by "the most checked out nurses I have met were either reservist who do it full time, or ones who were troops and then went back to school" LOL.

Seriously, the reserve NO (and MO for that matter) who maintains their skills daily on a ward or ER are exactly the ones that you want teaching the Med Tec and Med A's. We now have one contract with VGH in Vancouver to act as our trauma training center. We should make it more diffuse and use as many centers in a preceptor program that we can. If there is a Nursing school or PCP training program in the area  the hospitals are used to having students in that role. Why re-invent the wheel when we don't have to to get a desired product. I would like to see a 2-4 Month practicum with yearly or biyearly refreshers. 

Comments

Grant


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## starlight_745

I'm just stirring the pot here but is it time to subdivide the Med Tech trade?  In the US army their 91W can get the M6 skill identifier which involves going through LPN training.  That way you could have a certain percentage of Med Techs with the nursing skills of an LPN to work in the BMS etc.  The Med Tech trade is so broad now I think most people are going to be hard pressed to maintain all their skills at any given time.  It could be a separate branch off at the QL5 level similar to P Med Tech etc.  This certainly wouldn't replace NO's but it could bring some additional nursing skills into a medical platoon.


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## Armymedic

Reg Force trade 737 is too short of pers right now to even attempt that, but I am sure there are as many people who would disagree with that concept as there is who agree. NTM it would threaten the NO role again....


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## starlight_745

Just a crazy idea I had, not really all that feasible.


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## Fraser.g

Giving the Med Tec an LPN role would not threaten the RN (NO) role any more than LPNs threaten the RN role in acute care facilities on civi street.
The difference in the roles is the critical thinking skills and medical knowledge that is provided in a BSN as opposed to a LPN course.
There are some areas on civi street that hands on treatment is at the RN level and Paramedic level only. This is due to the level of acuity. On military terms it would mean that in critical care or ER environments the hands on care would be provided by NOs and at least 6A Regular force members. Once they are less than critical then the lower skill sets are more appropriate. In that environment the NO becomes a supervisor, clinical resource and instructor to ensure that a high standard of care are provided.

This would also serve to ensure that there is a transferablility of slills between the military and civi life on retirement.


Grant


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## Armymedic

Only one problem with that:



			
				RN PRN said:
			
		

> On military terms it would mean that in critical care or ER environments the hands on care would be provided by NOs and at least 6A Regular force members. Once they are less than critical then the lower skill sets are more appropriate. In that environment the NO becomes a supervisor, clinical resource and instructor to ensure that a high standard of care are provided.



Is that the current Reg force 6a does not teach any medical skills, only admin and management, until they change it AGAIN.

Unfortunately, IMHO, it was the nurses (or former nurses who are now HSO's) who have directed the Med Tech training solely toward prehospital care and away from LPN skills. (but of course I could be wrong...then again whom had the most to gain)


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## Fraser.g

There may be some faint validity to the last posts statement but I believe that the move towards Prehospital training is more likely to be one of simplicity, ease in training and less legality when it comes to bridging. Remember that we lost NDMC in the last decade and with it the last DNDfully funded facilty that we could train in. 
If we moved to the model that I submitted earlier with a Nurse Educatior teaching the med tecs and Med As we would have a more rounded medic at the end. Also ask yourself where we are most often used? Prehospital or in a clinic environment and which skill set would be more benificial to eiter or both.

Grant


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## Armymedic

Thats just the bitter med tech in me coming out..



			
				RN PRN said:
			
		

> There may be some faint validity to the last posts statement but I believe that the move towards Prehospital training is more likely to be one of simplicity, ease in training and less legality when it comes to bridging. Remember that we lost NDMC in the last decade and with it the last DND fully funded facilty that we could train in.



Actually, I believe its simplicity and also the desire for CFMG to be able to justify the granting of spec pay to Med Techs from Cpl to Sgt. To be able to do that, I am told approx 75 % of Med Tech must hold some civilian equivilency, and seeing there is no other national stardard other then PCP....

To add on three months of nursing skills would make the QL 3 course a bit long.

How'd  we get soo far of topic anyway?


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## Fraser.g

IamBloggins said:
			
		

> Does anyone out there have any information about the role of a military nurse (esp Army)?   ie/what sort of clinical stuff do they do? is it mostly managerial work? how likely is it that they'd go overseas? where could one be posted? etc.



Drawing from the orroriginalst I think that we are still on topic. The ref as to what is the NO scope of practice, what can and should the medtec do in their role as well as discussing fututre possilbilties for the medical trades seems bang on.

The problem with the NO scope and role is that they are not utilized to their full potential as I have said in preveious posts. Now the question is where can the assembled masses here see as a future role both at the basic and at the advanced clinical level.


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## Armymedic

At OP Ceelbration there was alot of discussion of the Nurse Practitioner taking alot of the in garrison care in the new CDU concept. This would be a realitively new role for Nursing Officers in the military.

What do you think about here role, RN PRN, Brad, and Starlight?


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## Fraser.g

Depending on the position they could be covered by an RN with their TNCC, ACLS with PALS for deployment. The only time the requirement would be for a MN in advanced practice is if they are out functioning beyond communication with medical authority. 
Advance practice nurses are in increasing demand throughout Canada. The CF would be hard pressed to recruit into those positions. 
One way would be to assist reserve RNs to take their advance practice course and then employ them on class C or B positions. This way the Regular force gets their clinical specialists at a cheaper cost and only has to pay when they are using them. come to think of it they could do the same for the rest of the reserve medics (like the Air Reserve). Pay for their school or subsidise it, then use it when needed. All the while the reservists are keeping their skills up and sharp without the federal government having to pay a cent.
Hey the regular force MOs do it why not the rest??
But I digress from topic, 
Yes there should be consideration for a wider scope of practice for Nurses in the CF and one way is implementing in the new CDU system. If anyone knows more about this proposition please let me know.

Grant Fraser


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## starlight_745

I agree with RN PRN, however I think while we're deciding the role of the NO in the CF we also have to clearly define the role of the med tech.  In my opinion, the med tech field is too broad and we are sacrificing being excellent at a couple things for being fair at most things.  I believe there has been general agreement on here that medtechs need more realistic, focused training however the main stumbling block is a lack of people (i.e. can't get away on courses etc).  My proposal is that medtechs become the SME's on prehospital and tactical medicine.  The CF is not going to start sending its limited numbers of MO/NO far forward anytime soon the Med Techs might as well hone this skill set as they'll be the ones doing it.  I am not super familiar with the new CDU concept however my initial understanding is that a core cadre of staff with provide care freeing up other medical stuff to deploy take courses etc.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  
My proposal would be to take medtechs and instead of doing a ton of clinical work, have them do the med coverage/field type stuff but then spend the remainder of the time on civilian EMS ride alongs, trauma rotations, BTLS, physical fitness, marksmanship & soldier skills.  Use the CDU in garrison and free up people for things like the new combat casualty care course etc.  I've worked with all kinds of medical staff who spent their life in a clinic and practically forgot how to handle a C-7, never mind maintain a decent level of physical fitness, but I guess this is the sign of a peace time army.


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## Fraser.g

Sarlight I think you have hit the nail on the head,

If I can I would like to expand on your last post a bit.
Since the problem is that we do not have enough members in the regular force to send on course and maintain our commitments to either the rest of the military or our allies we need to have more with less. 

Here is what I propose:
We create a separate clinical trade within the regular force. It would be a re-muster trade somewhat like premedtec or the engineer heavy equipment operator. 
Regular force medics would have to spend their first three year hitch as a combat medtec and then they could re-muster to clinical medic if they wanted to or had to because of a change in medical category. The pre-rec for the combat medic would be the same as for the â Å“0â ? trades such as infantry or engineer.
The combat medtec trade would be responsible for all pre-hospital and combat trauma from the FEBA to two tactical bounds behind. Supervision at that level could be accomplished by a PA or TNCC trained RN in the limited treatment facilities. Experience for the combat medic could be attained by having them do Ambulance and ER practicums in any major center in Canada. 
From three bounds and further to the rear would be the responsibility of the newly created clinical medic. Their training would be more clinically advanced then that of the Combat Medtec but in a safer environment. This would be at the FSH or field hospital back to national hospital. The scope if practice would be at the LPN/ RN bedside level. Supervision could be conducted by RNs on each ward. 

So the next question would be â Å“what about the reserves?â ?
	Due to the limited amount of training time and restricted budget it is not feasible to train reservists as both combat medics and clinical ones. In most centers that there is a reserve field ambulance there are several hospitals. We could set up a supervised clinical practicum in those hospital wards for the reservists. If we specifically train them for the clinical environment from BMS to ward it would free up regular force medics to continue on with their pre-hospital training and trauma. The resrvists could then work in the base clinics and MIRs across Canada leaving the regular force to concentrate on the initial trauma care from a modern battle field. 
There is little difference between the hospital load in a large urban center and those casualties from a modern battle field once treatment has been initiated and their condition somewhat stabilized. The only big difference would be age.
I am confident that if DND were to approach the nursing managers on several Surgical and medicine wards they would be more than happy to have extra hands to do the day to day care on the patients including assessment and dressing changes. We would have to work out something for the medication administration etc but that is doable.


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## starlight_745

An interesting proposal and similar to the one I presented above for an LPN like trade.  I agree with many of the things that you have said, however I disagree about using the reserves as a clinical manpower pool.  There are slowly growing numbers of prehospital professionals coming into the reserves and your proposal would effectively negate some of the most experienced prehospital providers in the military.  Also, I think having a mix of personnel is advantageous.  If you look at the TO&E for a US Army Main Support Medical Company, there are positions for medics as well as MO/NO but the holding squad also has positions for LPN trained pers.  Instead of making it an all or nothing issue, I would train the reserves as the conventional prehospital medic and then provide a bursary (with conditions) to attend LPN school.  Now you have LPN trained staff who are in the reserves and can go out and get a civilian health care job to maintain their skills.  I have seen many many medics in the reserves go to LPN or nursing school so I think this would be a hit.  The key is you need to start having some terms of service.


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## Brad Sallows

By "tactical bound" do you mean lines of support, or echelons?  A tactical bound is just an expression of distance which is dependent on the terrain and the nature of the mobility of the unit doing the "bounding".


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## Fraser.g

Once again we come down to the issue of money. The problem with training Reserves to the pre-hospital medic level is that the military is unwilling/unable to invest the amount of money to bring the reserves up to the PCP level without some kind of commitment after the investment. If members are comming into the reserves with the pre-hospital skill set or get that training on their own I see no problem with using them to that level. What I am proposing is what to do with the rest of the army reserve medical corps. Those who we recruit out of high school and then only train to the BTLS and AMFR2 level. 
We would get more bang for our buck if we went the pseudo LPN route.


I would love it if DND approached each civi training accdamy that teaches the PCP course and pre-booked two spots per rotation for reservists. I can not see this happening any time in the near future.


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## Fraser.g

I was thinking of the acual distance away from the FEBA but we could just as well talk about echelons.


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## Donut

Hey Grant,

Another approach to the CF's understandable reluctance to fund reserves on PCP's would be to identify all the Reserve medics on Cl B/A for, oh lets pick a number, 2 years or more.  

Since we write the job descriptions for the competition, and most are already ranked Cpl/MCpl or MCpl/Sgt, this becomes a double retention bonus:  You can't even apply for the job until you've had some time in and demonstrated some degree of commitment, and it lets you save the other CL B education benefits for something else you want to do, or 

As part of that two year contract, they spend 16 weeks on the PCP.  The course could come at the start of the contract, if that was what was required by the job, or at the end, as a "thanks for coming out".  You could then have a relatively constant flow of PCP qualified reserves to do all the taskings the reg  force is too understrength to complete.  He**, why not make it a three-year contract with the last year in a deployable holding pool; the CF has had you for two years, you should meet trade specs and be dentally fit to deploy, not a admin nightmare, etc...

You could then hold these pers to their contracts on a "early withdrawal" clause requiring them to pay back the course tuition and expenses if they terminate their contracts.  I suspect the majority of the pers who did this would then persue at least part-time prehospital employment and maintain a license for some period.  When it expires, the mbr goes back to the AFMR2 mocomp stuff, by which time they are a clinical leader and can manage pers who hold the licenses and have the specialist skills.

Not a lot of time to draw this out , but here it is.

DF


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## Armymedic

I just lost the rant I was trying to type up...
So here is the highlights....
The reasons why your proposals are not good are:
1. Good reg force med techs must learn more then first aid,  BTLS trauma, and basic cardiac care skills (really all PCP learn is it not?) because clinical assessment skills are required to work in the first line role.
2. Good reg force med techs are ideally striving to become PA's, and without daily patient contact the accelerated PA program in Borden wll just chew up the army medics. 
3. Good reg force med techs have to work in Air force and navy enviroments as well as in the field,
4. With no clinical 6a then basic assessment skills need to be taught asap, if all PA prerequisite skills are being taught on QL 5, then basic assessment has to be taught to QL 3 (and was prior to JI programs),
5. When do the med techs learn those other skills required for first line role like putting on a cast, sizing crutches, giving SQ, IM or ID injections, and doing eye chart and hearing tests, which are so important in a CDU/UMS daily operation?
6. With the limited scope of expertise, how do we learn to make do with no support and protracted evac times when the goose gets it....

You absolutely CAN NOT seperate the Med Tech trade in the way you discuss as much as it would make sence to do it. If we were to then the division would be the Med Techs who fast track to WO PA, beginning at the MCpl level, and the remainder Med Techs stay as PCP qualified and learn admin and man management crap and never go past Sgt....

Get more PA's and we can be rid of those Nurse practitioners who can't (or better said, CFMG won't) deploy anyway.


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## Fraser.g

Armymedic said:
			
		

> You absolutely CAN NOT seperate the Med Tech trade in the way you discuss as much as it would make sence to do it. If we were to then the division would be the Med Techs who fast track to WO PA, beginning at the MCpl level, and the remainder Med Techs stay as PCP qualified and learn admin and man management crap and never go past Sgt....
> 
> Get more PA's and we can be rid of those Nurse practitioners who can't (or better said, CFMG won't) deploy anyway.



I believe you answered your own question or statement with the above quote. I am not stating that the medtec would stay stagnant at the PCP level but move upward to ICP and ACP levels. Once there the next step would be the PA. No fast track just progression. 
As for casting there is no need to cast that close to the FEBA in the first place. If a member is casted then they are not combat effective and require time to preserve the manpower that is our mandate. A splint would be sufficient until the wounded individual is evacuated back to a facility that has the x-ray and other requirements to do the job properly.

Now on to your last point. Why is it that CFMG cant or wont deploy NPs into the field or on ship for that matter? Go into any northern health station in this country and you will find NPs not PAs. The major difference between the two is that NPs operate on their own licence as opposed to PAs who work under a Physicians. It is the last letter of the title that says it all. Practitioner versus Assistant.

It is great to teach skills to members but if they are not used they are gone. It is time to look at how we can maintain the skill sets we are teaching and not just do scenarios and mockups. Practice is nice and an essential part of learning but it is just makebelieve until you are actualy doing it. Now I have to get back to actualy doing it my brake is up and I have a level 2 trauma comming in.

It is time to critically think of a solution to the situation we are in by considering things outside the normal scope as opposed to bashing our heads against the old stereotypes.

GF


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## Armymedic

My point is Med Tech must fill all roles of first line care, not just those on a army field of Battle. IMOand many others is the reliance of PCP and civy paramedic style training keyholes us to a narrow scope of practice which limits our effectiveness in the broader scope of our employment. It is easier to refresh a skill lost then to learn it brand new at the moment it is needed.

Ref NP's, their current role is restricted to the CDU's in garrison, and so far there is no plans to have them work else where, leaving operational and deployable positions to Military MO's and PA's. PA s are now recognized by CMA and will be licenced in the next 2 yrs...And currently, niether a NP nor PA can work totally independent of a real Doctor.


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## Fraser.g

I understand and agree that MedTecs can and will do the majority of first line care on casualties and patients. The fact is that the scope of practice is incredibly broad for any professional. What I, and others, have suggested is that some specialization is possible. 
I would not ask an OR nurse to function in my environment (ER) or me in theirs. To make a broad statement that all medics can do all roles is setting us up for disaster. All medics should have a basic skill set and be exposed to as broad an education as possible but after that there has to be specific advanced skills taught to an individual depending on the environment that they work in.
When I was in the colledge of nursing I was exposed to the diverse areas that I could work in. In medicine it is the same. On graduation I made the decision as to which field I wanted to go. In Medicine there is a lengthy residency to learn a whole specialized skill set. The last time a nurse is a generic or a doctor is the same is when they walk across the stage to get their degree. 
It is my belief that the same should be said for the medic trade.
It is also my belief that nurses could do a more broad role in the CF.
If you have the resources but not use them to their fullest is foolish.

My two cents.


----------



## starlight_745

How about making PA an officer trade similar to other militaries?  When medics are interested in becoming PA's they apply and if accepted get commisioned as a 2Lt and do direct patient care similar to an MO/NO.  Keep the med tech trade and expand it and add more skills at the QL3/5 level allowing medics to progress more.  Also with civilian PA schools seeming to be on the horizon it would allow the CF to recruit PA's into the military and have them start at a relatively junior rank.  There's no way you could recruit one and make them a WO.


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## Fraser.g

I seem to remember the concept of non-leadership ranks being bantered about a while back. The idea was to that a clinical specialist could hold a rank and therefore pay at a rank that acknowledges their skills but not leadership. There was issue with pers holding rank but not the command training like lawyers (Capt. entry level) NOs (Lt. entry) MOs (Capt entry) etc.
I think it fell by the way side a while back.

GF


----------



## Andrea_Dawn

I am seriously thinking of doing my Nursing degree through the CF. I have spent the last few months trying to gather all the info possible about joining the CF. If there are any women (or men) out there who have done or are currently doing their BScN through the military.....please give me a run down of how this whole process works. I have lots of questions....such as...do women and men in basic training share rooms? ??? What do you do for the summers in between school years? Anyway, if ANYONE out there can help me out that would be fantastic! This web site is great, it's answered a lot of questions for me already. Thanks!!


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## Inch

Well, I went to BOTC with a couple nurses.  It's an ROTP program or DEO just like every other officer entry plan, the difference being you won't go to RMC since nursing isn't offered there.  If you go ROTP they'll pay for tuition and books plus pay you a tiny salary while you're at the school of choice. Keep in mind that the salary is small, like $1100/ month BEFORE taxes. It's not a lot so living with family or at home would really benefit you. You'd do basic training probably in 2 parts, part 1 before your first year and part 2 between 1st & 2nd year as well as french.  Then your next 2 summers will be contact training (a fancy way of saying you'll be spending the summer at a military hospital learning the tools of the trade.  Once you graduate you go to Borden for your basic nursing officer course and you're off and working after that.

No, men and women do not share rooms. This isn't Sweden. In fact, the only gang showers you'll find as an officer are locker rooms.

Cheers


----------



## tree hugger

Right now, ROTP OCdts get $1311/mo before taxes, works out to $509 twice a mo.


----------



## Fraser.g

I have heard that there is a movement afoot to restrict officer command positons to HCAs only both in the regular and Reserve forces. Great on paper but will it work in the reserve?
The forces does not offer BNOC or BMOC for the Nursing or Medical officers so they send them on the HCA track. I have heard that even though they are qualifying them into leadership positions they will not be eligible in the future.

Does any one know more on this initiative?

I have been counseled to become an HCA so that I can stay on the leadership track. By this is the army indicating that they would rather have administrators than practitioners?


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## Brad Sallows

Until you see a pertinent piece of paper with CF H Svcs Gp letterhead, treat it as:

1) rumour, or

2) mangled fact.

The reserve only has one stream of courses for all medical branch officers.  What was suggested and discussed over the past couple of years - and I don't recall seeing it in writing as decided policy - was that medical professionals could join the reserve and advance in rank as medical professionals without taking some (any?) of the usual career courses.  However, by opting out they would be excluded from positions in the chain of command.  It would be a choice, not an imposition.

This could potentially cause some grief.  I strongly suggest seeking clarification through the chain of command (could be as simple as an email from your CO to the Reserve Advisor).

Purely my opinion: there is very little in the reserve medical branch officer track (including army and CF common training) that is not good common dog stuff for any medical branch officer, and it is only a grand total of 13 weeks for the whole shot: BCT(3), MOSC*(2), ICT(2), ACT(2), MCSC*(2), JRCSC(2), plus pre-study for the staff packages.  If there are classifications better suited to those with minimal time to spare, I don't know what they are.  The RUMOUR I most recently heard was a suggestion MCSC would be removed as a requirement or prerequisite for JRCSC for medical branch officers (the army requires it), but that strikes me as nonsensical - MCSC gives a much better grounding in operational planning process than JRCSC, and you might as well be a bag of hammers if you don't understand the workings of an army formation and you are trying to plan medical support for one.  In fact I think it would be useful to at least develop on-line voluntary self-study packages (amounting to a couple of days effort each) on medical support to air and naval operations, aimed at the Capt/Maj level.

*Or whatever the army reserve changes to follow the AOC


----------



## Fraser.g

Sir,

Thank you for the clarification,
I know that listening to rumors is a bad thing in any form but this one really had me conflicted and concerned.
thank you again for the quick responce.

G Fraser


----------



## MedCorps

The Reg F still runs a BNOC once a year, and there is no indication that they are going to stop.  We also do the medical MOC common "phase III" the Basic Field Health Services Course.    

They are also sending 57A's on leadership courses (I am on CLFCSC AOC as of Monday with the rest of the Army, and have completed ITC-1 [when it existed] and more recently ATOC-CSS).  I also know they are putting NOs in field leadership positions (I have been a Platoon Commander for 3 years, there are a few other NO Platoon Commanders in my Coy, the Coy 2 I/C and Coy OC are NOs).  The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/  do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians.  That is goood also, because we need pure clinicians also... as long as they have the  tactical awareness, and soldier skills that go with being one of Her Majesty's Officers.  That is a whole other story.  

This is in the Regs... not sure what is happening in the ResF.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## Armymedic

MedCorps said:
			
		

> The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/ do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians. That is goood also, because we need pure clinicians also...



Hence why nurses shouldn't leave the hospital and all leadership positions should be HCA's and as dictated by position, MO's ie Brigade/base/Wing Surgeons....

Knowing your affiliation MC, I can tell you think this is a good idea... ;D


----------



## vr

In my experience with the Medical Reserve world NO's have always been expected to at some point in their careers fill line postions ie Platoon Commander.  The simple reason being is that we have such a constant shortage of qualified officers that we can't afford to have purely "clinical" officers.  Up until the recent re-vamping of the Reserve TOE there were never many clinical postions anyways.


----------



## HCA

Can you even imagine a world where we had a surplus of officers and could have purely clinical positions? In my unit we would require at least 4 officers in hard positions currently being filled by Snr NCO's before we could even think about having the luxury of clinical positions.


----------



## Fraser.g

As MC put it that in his opinion "The reality is that most NOs do not want to learn/  do this stuff, and are happy being pure clinicians.  That is Good also, because we need pure clinicians also..." 
Absolutely, if an NO wants to be a pure clinician then that is their choice but if they are prepared with the courses for leadership positions they should not be restricted because they are an NO and not an HCA. In the  Res F HCAs and NOs as well as MOs have to do the same leadership track. If you are going to send them on the courses then let them do the job that they are being trained for. If you do not then you are waisting the resource that you are trying so hard to recruit.


----------



## MedCorps

I think (I know) that by having a certain number of NO's duel tracked in both the Clinical and Command / Field path is value added for the Medical Branch.   Having some NO's cross  trained allowes for economy and flexibility on operation (2 of the principles of CSS).  I also know that there are certain positions in the Medical Branch (staff) that you want someone who has both skillsets , because they have foresight (another CSS principle) of both tactical and clinical matters.  

RN RPN - at this time Ref F MOs do not do the Basic Health Services Field Course, ATOC or CLFCSC, so they really have no training in the field tactics / command.   This is one of the problems with the Medical Branch IMHO.  

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## Fraser.g

Ahh and there is the rub, I see more clinical challenges in one shift than you could possibly see in a year of MIR duty. This leaves me ample army time to devote to the leadership aspect and not sacrifice my clinical skills as ArmyMedic would suggest to MC.


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## MedCorps

Remuster TO the Infantry <sigh>... I remustered FROM the infantry to escape it <smile>!!!!

Clinical... well, sure clinical sometimes takes a back seat.  Right now for me, I am developing as a Field Medical Services Officer... it is my time.   Sooner or later it will be back to clinical for a few years I reckon (or not).  

I am quite lucky however that my CO  was kind enough to coughed up the $3600.00 in TD / Accn / meals to send me to a "level 1" ER / Trauma Centre for a month last March.   It was good to get back into the swing of things again.  The deal was that I maximized my time on patient and thus was working 12 hours x 5 days a week (shift) for 4 weeks and came up with inexpensive lodging.   Still not enough (as that was my first clinical (read: touch patient) MSCP in 15 months, but much more useful and more enjoyable than slumming in the MIR <smile>).  

Cheers, 

MC


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## Fraser.g

Remuster To the combat arms, no thanks, been there and done that. Infantry for three and Combat Engineer for Ten is enough mud for me. I value the experiences that it gave me and hopefully pass the enthusiasm of the combat arms on to my troops especially when it comes to field craft.


----------



## Armymedic

Please teach them...

1. stuff that won't get them killed if something real ever happens,
2. stuff that is relevent,
3. the correct way...

For example, demonstrate how to prod your way out of a minefield...even get them to practice it...Then end the class by saying this is only a last resort when you are all alone and about to die....

Seems someone was teaching said class around here and people now think a medic can prod into a minefield to get a casualty. (the way I teach...no engineers, it sucks to be the casualty)

anyway thats getting off the nursing topic.


----------



## Fraser.g

I have designed mine warfare lectures so that they get the general knowledge that is required for MLOC and then goes into more detail for each trade. I talk to the Svc Bn more in detail about road blocks and extrication from a vehicle after a strike, to the infantry I address breaching in more detail and to the medics types of casualties from the blast waves, shrapnel, etc. 

In this way I can pass on my knowledge and real time experience while also hopfully giving the participants valuable information that they can actually use.

It does confuse some members when a Nursing Officer is giving a mine warfair class  

GF


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## Armymedic

Personally, I cringe when non-engineers teach mine awareness...Unless its for medical pers about how the engineers/medics assist the other in extraction of casualites.


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## Fraser.g

If I was not an engineer before, 1990-2000, I would not even dream of telling other pers about a trade that I have no experience in. However, I was an engineer and served with 1 CER on roto 1 to Yugo with UNPROFOR and have some personal experience when it comes to mine breaching and awareness as well as instructing at the school.

GF


----------



## Spr.Earl

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Personally, I cringe when non-engineers teach mine awareness...Unless its for medical pers about how the engineers/medics assist the other in extraction of casualites.



The only pers ALLOWED to instruct in Mine Awareness and Extraction are QUALIFIED F.E.'S no if ands or buts,no matter if you were an F.E. in the past!!!!


----------



## Fraser.g

When the option is having an Ex Engineer do the course or no course at all then the former is preferable to the latter. The fact is that there are NO Field Engineers in 38 Brigade and therefore none in Saskatchewan or Manitoba.

Would you rather have an entire reserve brigade not taught?'
In this world of fiscal restraint no unit is willing to fly a team out to teach the material. The brigade has, in the past, used local members to teach the course. That is MSE ops teaching at Svc Bn, Infanteers teaching themselves etc.

We have, in the past had several from 6, myself included and one from Calgary but they have moved on. This leaves me.

GF


----------



## Spr.Earl

As for no Eng support for Mine Awareness I suggest you take this up higher and make it official that you are not getting this training every year.  
As evreyone knows MIne Awareness has been the "Flavour of the Month" for years now.  

You do go to Wain. every year yes? If so request for 8 F.E.R. to send a few bodies over and they would most likely be more than happy to oblige.

If you are instructing just make sure the material you are teaching is current. 
As we all know in our repective trades,we flip flop back and forth every few years,what I mean is,one year you do it this way and the next year or the year after another way.
Just make sure your current. C.Y.A.!!


----------



## Fraser.g

Good ideas all, I have been requesting and getting the most up to date doctrine that is released by the school and accessable on the DIN along with the PPT presentations.

As for going to Wx for training. Dundurn is 20 minutes down the road so we train there. Have you ever tried to book Wx during the year? They are booked up years in advance.

Mean while back to the topic of Nursing in the military.

Who is going to the big conference in Edmonton at the end of September?

GF


----------



## Armymedic

OP Med?

I am for one of 6 from 2 Fd Amb.


----------



## Fraser.g

Op Med was a great conference! Lots of networking and great presentations during both MOC days and the full conference.

There are several changes comming on the regular and reserve side of the house to the 57 trade.

Each reserve Fd Amb have 7 R57 potions to fill. These are both command and clinical in nature.

The OTC competency requirement has now been applied to both regular force and reserve Nurses as well as Regular force TQ 5 Med Tecs.

A new MCSP is comming out for the 57 Trade, stay tuned.

If I heard about Memoranda of Understanding one more time I was going to be sick but they are being generated for hospitals so that an increased number of 57s can be in the hospital and this also goes for med tecs and medics.

As always, we have herd the promices, now it is up to us to put pressure on the leadership to follow through. If any of you have an idea for a clinical area or a sharing with the local civi medical system lay it out and send it up the chain! If the Regular force NOs want to maintain their clinical competencies there has to be a pro-active approach taken. We know from the past that the passive approach does not work.

Ta

GF


----------



## Fraser.g

OK so there seems to finally be a MCSP for nurses. At this point I believe there should be a splitting of the ways. Critical care MCSP and GDN another. We could go further and say that ER, ICU, CCU, in one side and Med, Surg, Ortho as well as palliative in another.

what does the readership feel should be the critical skill sets for each.

I do not know how many of each read this forum but from the ER side of the house I do not believe my skill set should be measured with CCU and ICU. Each has their own drive and skills. Just because you work ICU does not mean you are an ER nurse and vice versa. Why should we have the same MCSP.

I have not seen the MCSP for any nursing group and therefore this may be preemptive. I am looking for feedback both regular and reserve.

GF


----------



## Nightengale

I am a 24 year old Registered Nurse and I am considering joining the Canadian Forces.  I realize this is a very big commitment and I am trying to gather as much information as I can about the entire process, lifestyle, ups and downs, etc.  I am looking for helpful information from the ground up because I realize that recruiters and pamphlets have their limitations.

I did visit my local recruiter but I found that he didn't have much 'nursing' specific information.  I am wondering what Basic Officer Training is like...how many people make it, specifically females...Also I am wondering about the living conditions, pay, cost of living while you are doing basic training and how physically demanding it really is.  What type of physical training should I be doing to prepare for basic training?  I'm fit but I'm no powerhouse (5"4 125 lbs)..lol

Also, I have read some posts that said a lot of Nursing Officers do a lot of administrative 'desk" type work.  That doesn't really appeal to me.  I'm a critical care nurse right now and would like to keep those skills.  Is this possible and what element would I be most likely to continue with critical care nursing?  

Any information would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks in advance!


----------



## PRL ER NO

Hi, welcome to the few and proud Nursing Officer role in the CF.   I am one of the old type, old infantry in the reserves now in the new CFHS PRL.   Not all Nursing Officer fly desks for a living.   Attached is some info about the role of MOC 57, Nursing in the forces


Nursing 57

What They Do

The primary role of a Nursing Officer is to use his or her professional training and experience in support of the Canadian Forces Medical Service.   In doing so, the Nursing Officer will be required to teach and supervise other personnel, to encourage the maintenance of health and the prevention of illness, and to provide comprehensive nursing care to the sick and injured.   

Qualification Requirements

To become a Nursing Officer, you must have a university Nursing degree and be currently registered with a provincial or territorial registered nurses' association.   You will be expected to meet Canadian Forces medical standards and go through a selection process which includes test and interview procedures. 
The entry plans that provide access to the Nursing Military Occupation are described below.   More detailed information on these plans can be obtained from your nearest Canadian Forces Recruiting office by calling 1-800-856-8488. 

Plans for Entry

Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP)   â â€œ If you qualify for this plan, you will complete your university education under government sponsorship prior to commencing full-time employment as a military Nursing Officer.   To be eligible, you must possess the required prerequisites for the Canadian University you plan to attend, or be currently enrolled in an undergraduate university Nursing programme leading to a baccalaureate in Nursing. 
Direct Entry Officer (DEO)   â â€œ To qualify for direct entry as a Nursing Officer, you must be a registered nurse, a graduate of an accredited university degree programme, and hold a current licence to practise in a Canadian province or territory. 

Training

PHASE I 
Basic Officer Training Course   - If your application has been successful, you will be enrolled in the Canadian Forces and then proceed to the Canadian Forces Leadership and Recruit School in Saint-Jean, Quebec, for the 13-week Basic Officer Training Course.   In Saint-Jean, you will be introduced to life in the Canadian Forces and taught leadership techniques, dress and deportment standards, as well as the regulations and the rank structure of the Canadian Forces.   This phase of your training does not involve nursing and it is extremely physically demanding. 
The Basic Officer Training Course is given in either English or French and successful completion is a prerequisite for further training.   At this point, if you have been enrolled under the Direct Entry Officer plan, you will be commissioned in the rank of Second Lieutenant/Acting Sub-Lieutenant (Navy), with subsequent promotion to Lieutenant/Sub-Lieutenant (Navy).   At this stage, if you are not bilingual in the two official languages, you would normally attend a second language training course of approximately seven months in duration. 

PHASE II 

Basic Nursing Office Course - During the Basic Nursing Officer Course, you will receive detailed knowledge of the skills and techniques required to perform effectively and efficiently as a Nursing Officer in a field or clinic environment.   You will learn what is meant by â Å“field medical environment,â ? and how to triage and evacuate battle casualties. 
You will be taught the role, organization and channels of communication of the Canadian Forces Medical Service, and receive detailed knowledge pertaining to the medical-legal responsibilities of Medical Assistants, Nursing Officers and other military health care personnel. 
You will become familiar with the principles and methods of teaching that will allow you to conduct on-job training for Medical Assistants.   In accordance with the Canadian Forces Personnel Assessment System (CFPAS), you will acquire further skills in observing, counselling, recording, reporting and interviewing procedures.   You may spend a short time at a civilian hospital to gain clinical experience in areas not covered by your pre-service training and/or experience. 

Working Environment

Nursing Officers usually work in functional buildings.   In field medical units, the working conditions will vary due to operational and climatic conditions as well as to the limitations of equipment and medical supplies. 
The work schedule of each facility is adapted to its functions.   In detachments, general duty personnel will work either eight-hour or twelve-hour shifts.   Smaller facilities may operate on an eight-hour working day, with nursing personnel on call after duty hours.   In all cases, Nursing Officers may be recalled on short notice in case of emergencies, including aeromedical evacuation flights, crashes, serious illnesses or accidents, disasters and exercises. 
The intense concentration and effort needed to provide essential nursing care in varying conditions may result in mental and physical fatigue.   Generally, however, the stress involved is similar to that experienced in a civilian community or hospital setting. 
Occupational hazards can be compared to those in the civilian environment, with the exception of such tasking as field and aeromedical evacuation duties. 

Employment

You could be employed in a definitive care hospital, in a small facility where in-patient care is offered only on a short-time basis, in an outpatient setting, or in a field setting under varying climatic conditions.   Service requirements as well as your professional skills will dictate your first posting. 
As you gain military knowledge and are assessed on your performance and potential, you could be selected for specialized nursing training in accordance with your own interests and service requirements.   Some of the courses offered include peri-operative nursing care, critical care nursing, mental health nursing, community health nursing and aeromedical evacuation.   During the span of your nursing career, you will also be required to enroll in military courses in teaching, management and administration; this will assist you in your progress toward greater responsibility and higher rank. 
Depending on your interest, ability and motivation, you could have the opportunity to assume various positions of responsibility and leadership throughout your career.   You can also compete with Health Care Administration Officers and Pharmacy Officers for Health Services Operations Officer positions and progression in rank beyond Major.


----------



## carrieb

Hi there,

I am recently new to the military as a Nursing Officer..a diploma nurse now being sponsored by the CF to complete my post RN degree...I am off to IAP this summer....so what interested you in becoming a military Nursing Officer?  My husband is military so that is what sparked me to join along with the new RNEP incentive.  I agree that info is limited in regards to what you will truly be doing as a nurse in the military on a daily basis.  I have been lucky enough to meet a nurse here on our home base in a field hospital who has been helpful in passing along more specific info....maybe you can try that...go in to your local base....the unit staff are very helpful and will give you a tour and answer all your questions as best they can.

Carrie


----------



## elminister

Not to take away from Nightengale's question but what about if you are a first-year nursing student and you want to join with the ROTP entry, how does that work?


----------



## Donut

Elminster, I've no idea about ROTP nursing, sorry.

Nightengale, for what it's worth, I've met few CF nurses who are employed in a full-time patient care capacity, and damn few who have maintained their critical care skill sets, largely due to the demands of their administrative duties, and fact that we don't run our own hospitals anymore in the CF.

I've met dozens of RN in administrative jobs, doing staff work, med estimates, equipment procurement, training plans, etc.  I understand a move is afoot to increase the amount of time that RN's spend in patient care, but, outside of a relatively few postings, most are mainly administrative.

There's been a couple of posts on similar topics in the past couple of days, the bulk of the health services info can be found on the Combat Service Support board.

Hope this helps, good luck with your choices.

DF


----------



## kincanucks

elminister said:
			
		

> Not to take away from Nightengale's question but what about if you are a first-year nursing student and you want to join with the ROTP entry, how does that work?



You apply under the ROTP Undergrad program and if you are selected and you pass the IAP/BOTP then your nursing degree will be subsidized for the remaining years.  Your tution, textbooks and any instruments required are provided and you are paid a monthly salary.  During the subsequent summers you take further training which may be second language or occupation training.  Go talk to your local recruiter.


----------



## Strike

PRL ER NO,

I thought I read in the news awhile back that doctors and nurses have been encouraged to take shifts at local hospitals to keep up certain skills.  I think this was in NS or something.  Is this still the case or have I been misinformed?


----------



## rdschultz

Nightengale said:
			
		

> I am wondering what Basic Officer Training is like...how many people make it, specifically females...Also I am wondering about the living conditions, pay, cost of living while you are doing basic training and how physically demanding it really is. What type of physical training should I be doing to prepare for basic training? I'm fit but I'm no powerhouse (5"4 125 lbs)..lol



Having finished IAP/BOTP recently, I'll offer what I can.   I believe my platoon started wtih 9 females, and as far as I recall, all but two of them made through.  One left due to an previous injury, and another didn't pass the leadership test during IAP.  

Living conditions:  You'll live at "The Mega", in the officer quarters.  There will be either 6 or 9 rooms to a "pod" (or mod), and you'll share a bathroom or two with those individuals.  During basic, you'll have your own room, but you will not be permitted to close the door to it.  Privacy is one thing you don't get much of during IAP/BOTP.  A typical day (if there is such a thing) involves getting up at 5am (or slightly before, if you have morning PT), getting ready for inspections (which are frequent during the first part of the course, and less so near the end), and attending classes of various topics (everything from first aid and weapons to how to give orders and instructional techniques).  Classes typically are an hour long, with short breaks between them (sometimes too short) and a break for lunch (which can be 15 minutes on a bad day, or an hour on a good day).   The day is over around 5pm, with supper.  After that, you go up to your quarters, and get ready for the next day. Lights out by 11pm, which means you're in your bed sleeping or pretending to... This will be enforced by Duty staff.  Keep in mind though, there are days that are longer, some that are shorter (much rarer), and what happens from day to day and week to week changes.  One important point is that during the first four weeks of your course, you will not have any freedom.  This includes things like not being allowed off base, no civlian clothing, no alcohol, and things of that nature.  You will have access to phones though.

When I took it, there were 4 trips to the field, as well.  I believe they were 5 days, 2.5 days, 4 days, and 5 days, in that order.   You'll sleep outdoors, smell gross, and very likely lack sleep during the trips.  They're not that bad, but they're not paradise.  

Pay:  This can't be nailed down specifically, as you'll learn that the pay from person to person tends to vary.  Ask your recruiting officer what pay level you'll start off at and look at the pay charts that are available on the recruiting site.  Typically, a DEO candidate makes $3000-$3600 before deductions.  If you're married and have a place of residence, you won't have to pay for rations and quarters.  If you're single you do, and every pay (on the 15th and 30th) you'll see about $900-$1000.   If you're married, expect $450 more per month (ballpark, as I'm not sure, but thats what rations and quarters is worth), plus separation pay.  I don't know enough about that to comment on specifics, but I believe its about $12/day (ballpark).  One thing I know about separation pay is that many people in our platoon didn't see it added to their cheques throughout the whole basic course, for some reason or another, so I wouldn't necessarily count on it being there.  

Cost of living:  Well, you can decide this.  Rations and quarters are deducted off your cheque, if at all, and that covers all your meals and your living accomodations while on course.  Any other expenses are your own choice.  There will be some necessary costs (like boot polish, all the inspection kit).  A lot of people dropped money before trips to Farnham (the field) on snivel kit... things like energy bars, headlamps, and other things that made them more comfortable.  If you want to save money during the course, it certainly is possible. 

Physical Training:  This depends largely on your course staff.   You'll have to do pushups, and run, so make sure you can do both of those things fairly well.  Be able to run for at least 30 minutes without stopping, I'd say.  5k minimum.  But the better shape you're in, the easier it will be.   For the not-so-active people, Basic was a good way to lose weight... for the fit people, it was a way to gain weight... so it isn't exactly punishing physically.   As well, you don't need to be a powerhouse, as long as you're reasonably tough.  

Anyways, thats about all I've got.  If you've got any specific questions about IAP/BOTP, feel free to PM me.  As I said, I just finished the course recently, so I have a fairly good idea of whats involved, and I'm more than willing to answer questions.


----------



## carrieb

Hoser,

thanks for the post about IAP...never can know enough to be prepared.  You said in the 1st 4 weeks you have no freedom and are not allowed off base...however are you allowed visitors?...I have 2 children that I would like my husband to be able to bring to visit me...

And what about cell phones....were they permitted on your course?...I realize that you probably cannot walk around with them all day turned on...but I'm thinking for my own private use at the end of the day.

thanks
Carrie


----------



## rdschultz

Cell phones were no problem.  There are also pay phones on the floor for use during the evenings.  As you guessed, you can't carry them with you during the day, but you are free to use them as you wish during the evening.

Visitors during the first 4 weeks would more than likely not be allowed, although I don't recall anybody specifically asking.  The problem is, you aren't allowed on the 2nd floor during indoctrination (the first 4 weeks), and that is pretty much the only place you're able to meet people (they aren't allowed in your quarters, and they aren't allowed in the green break area, for instance).  The only thing you could do is ask your course staff once you arrive at the Mega, but I'd be willing to bet that they would say no.


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## JackieRE

HI my name is Jackie,
I have a couple questions also.  I'm currently an LPN and I am interested in upgrading to a RN through the ROTP.  There are 6 courses from the first year that I have to complete before I can go into the second year of the program as a full time student to become a degree nurse.  The University offers seats in these classes to LPN's that are bridgeing into the RN program. I was wondering if the military will subsidize me for those 6 courses even though I wouldn't be a full time student.  Also I've read a great deal on this sight that nurses tend to end up in paper pushing postings.  I was wondering if this is almost forced upon them due to lack of availability of more hands on postings or if its personal preference.  I also am interested in the aeromedevac (I beleive thats how you spell it) course.  Is there opportunity for new NO's to get into this program in the first couple years of service, or is it a program that is coveted to get into?


----------



## kincanucks

JackieRE said:
			
		

> HI my name is Jackie,
> I have a couple questions also.   I'm currently an LPN and I am interested in upgrading to a RN through the ROTP.   There are 6 courses from the first year that I have to complete before I can go into the second year of the program as a full time student to become a degree nurse.   The University offers seats in these classes to LPN's that are bridgeing into the RN program. I was wondering if the military will subsidize me for those 6 courses even though I wouldn't be a full time student.   Also I've read a great deal on this sight that nurses tend to end up in paper pushing postings.   I was wondering if this is almost forced upon them due to lack of availability of more hands on postings or if its personal preference.   I also am interested in the aeromedevac (I beleive thats how you spell it) course.   Is there opportunity for new NO's to get into this program in the first couple years of service, or is it a program that is coveted to get into?



I can answer the question about the bridging program for LPNs.  You will not be subsidized unless you are in full-time Nursing degree program at an university.  Whatever programs you have to take to get unconditional acceptance into the program are at your expense.


----------



## horsegunner353

My wife is joining the Reg F as a NO. I'm curious what cap badge she will wear during BOTP.  I'm trying to help her prepare so she's not walking around St Jean with an elephant slipper beret like I did.

Also, will her slip ons say CANADA or MEDICAL?


----------



## Quag

I am not 100% sure, but she will probably wear the cornflake.  She is not eligible to be commissioned until after BOTP, and therefore will wear the cornflake, until either she gets commissioned or enters a Phase training that will allow a different capbadge (Phase 3 Armour for example).

After IAP some Dental/MO 2ndLt's wore Medical slips.  However the entire time on course they wore the Canada OCdt's slip-on, so I would imagine she would wear Canada while on course.  

In all honestly, it is better for her to blend in with the rest of the Ocdt.'s/2ndLt.'s.  

-Quag


----------



## Lima_Oscar

During IAP/BOTP, they should all be wearing the cornflake and Canada slip-on.  But once she is commissioned, according to the CF Dress Manual 3-4-4 "Direct Entry officers of the Medical, Dental, Chaplain and Legal Branches, who enrol with all the necessary professional qualifications for the military occupation shall be issued branch badges immediately upon commissioning."


----------



## HCA123

If you look at the picture to the left, you'll see what cap badge she will wear upon commissioning.


----------



## FutureNurse

Hi all,

Just curious if there are any nursing officers here (or folks applying to become nursing officers). If so, I am interested in learning more about your experiences applying to the Forces and, once accepted, your experiences as a Nursing Officer.

I am currently a nursing student (RN), and have applied to the ROTP training program. I completed the application process in March, and am eagerly awaiting a response. This site has some amazing resources; I look forward to hearing from some kindred spirits!

Regards,
FutureNurse


----------



## Hot Lips

Hi FutureNurse,

PM inbound  

HL


----------



## Armymedic

From my personal point of view, NOs in the military do more administration and other military activities then actual patient care nursing. We (medics) tended to joke that if you hate taking care of patients as a (civilian) nurse, join the military.


----------



## Hot Lips

Armymedic said:
			
		

> From my personal point of view, NOs in the military do more administration and other military activities then actual patient care nursing. We (medics) tended to joke that if you hate taking care of patients as a (civilian) nurse, join the military.


Has been true...my understanding from 2 of my friends who are Captains at Stad in Halifax, that the forces is moving away from this...there is going to be a 4 month mandatory clinical practice period yearly to keep nurses up to date on their clinical practices.
My understanding from one of the Capt that just came back from A-stan is that there is a need for nurses who's hands on nursing skills are up to date as the requirement for nursing care is growing.
The comment was made that perhaps in some respects the forces was caught with their pants down with regards to some nurses' skills not being at a deployable level.  As I stated my understanding is that that is not going to be the case any longer.
I am by no means an expert on the topic...just passing along what I have heard.

HL


----------



## herseyjh

I would have to agree with the lack of patient contact.   A worry would be if you let the CF foot your bill you are then on the hook for 5 years I think (4 years for each year of school, plus 1 - correct me if I am wrong) so the whole deal will take 9 years.  Degree plus time owed.  At the end of that time you might fund yourself rusted out as most new RNs would have had years of full time clinical experience by then.  An other way to put it is most new grads are just trying to get comfortable with new skills, maybe trying to specialize, say ICU, CCU, ER, or what ever, and you will be missing out on that.

Of course there are all kinds of options you will have as a NO that a civi RN would not have.  I am just giving you the reason why I did let the CF pay my way.  I worked as a Med-A then as a civi RN, and now I am doing the PRL thing.


----------



## Lima_Oscar

I wouldn't recommend going through the ROTP route.  If you are just going into nursing and have an interest in the CF, a better route would be joining the reserves as a med tech.  That way you get the feel of what the military is like and without trapping yourself with obligatory service.

However, nursing in the CF is changing...with the CF Nursing 2020 Initiative, we are moving back into a more clinical role.  New graduates must now complete 2 years of med/surg consolidation at a civilian hospital (Halifax, Valcartier, Ottawa, Edmonton, or Esquimalt).  Once you have completed your consolidation, you have the options  of going into specialities: Primary Care, Emergency/Critical Care, Operating Room, Mental Health, or Air Med Evac.  So in the very near future, "NOs in the military do more administration and other military activities then actual patient care nursing" will no longer be valid.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me.


----------



## kincanucks

5 years I think (4 years for_ each _ year of school, plus 1 - correct me if I am wrong)  so the whole deal will take 9 years.

Doing the math the way you wrote it: 4 x 4 + 1 = 17.

You don't administer meds do you?

You get subsidized for 4 you owe 5, you get subsidized for 3 you owe 4 (still a nine year contract).


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

herseyjh said:
			
		

> A worry would be if you let the CF foot your bill you are then *on the hook * for 5 years I think (4 years for each year of school, plus 1 - correct me if I am wrong) so the whole deal will take 9 years.



Not to sound rude but....

_"on the hook"?_

Not a very positive way to describe serving your country after they (possibly) have paid your way thru a university degree...I am hoping people are grateful and WANT to serve, which is why they would "let the CF foot their bill" in the first place...

 :


----------



## herseyjh

Hmm, don't you love forums where people act rude?  I wondered why that is?  If I said that in front of you I am sure you would say something like 'don't you mean 1 year for each year of school?'  However, that is not the case, so why be constructive and clarify my typo when you can do that and be snide at the same time?

As for the hook comment, the army is paying, and the reason you owe them time is I bet in the past people have walked away from their obligations. 'On the hook' is a 'figure of speech.'  Obviously a poor one as people took it the wrong way.  Now on to the 9 years: 4 for your undergrad and then time as a NO with the green team (4+4+1=9). I put it that way as if you are not sure if you want to do the army for you whole career you might wonder how your skill will be when you are done.  In other words what are you going to do when you leave?  A buddy of mine, a NO for years asked me that exact question one day.  He was in the ER to 'maintain' his skills, and he said it has been so long sense he worked in the hospital that he had no idea what to do.  'I went from school to here and now I feel stuck.' is how he put it.  'My time with the army is coming to an end, but I am afraid to work as a civi nurse.'  His words not mine, but a valid point.  Picture this: it is 2006 and after five years you are not sure if you want to be a NO.  It is now 2011.  What will your skill set be?  How much actual hands on time will you have with patients?  Will this time be just you and your patients, or are you going to be buddied with an nurse that works in the hospital?  What will your patient population be?  How can I specialize and maintain my skills?  Maintenance of skills is a huge problem for the whole medical branch.  Do I want to do adult nursing my whole career? ect....

Just food for thought for the individual who started this post.  I just want them to think about it from all angles.  That is what I did and that is why I paid my own way, and now I am joining as a NO via the PRL.  I did it that way to ensure sold clinical skills, so when I am working as a NO I have experience, and on the converse also I have a civi career, and the CF gets a RN that they don't have to worry about training.  The CF is happy and so am I, and guess what I am doing this because I want to.  No hook.


----------



## kincanucks

_Hmm, don't you love forums where people act rude?  I wondered why that is?  If I said that in front of you I am sure you would say something like 'don't you mean 1 year for each year of school?'  However, that is not the case, so why be constructive and clarify my typo when you can do that and be snide at the same time?_

Actually it was meant as a humerous poke but....


----------



## Hot Lips

IMO some of the statements here are very self-serving.

If and when I get to be a proud member of the forces...I will consider it a privilege to be serving my country and helping my fellow soldiers.

The comments about being "on the hook" really upset me...this (the forces) is a fantastic opportunity for anyone who is devoted and loyal, I don't believe it is suited to those with a passing fancy.

If and when you were to get out of the forces at the end of your nursing career in the forces it would take a very short period of time to hone your clinical skills.  IMO you can almost train a monkey to do many of them.

It is the caring, compassion and dedication IMO that makes a great nurse...the skills...well they can come or go and they are always changing...it's technology...

I say serve for the right reasons...the ones you can look yourself in the mirror and be proud of  

HL


----------



## herseyjh

It must have been a misunderstanding then.  The classic inflection of what you think the writer's tone is, in this case negative, when it was really was positive.  I just re-read it and I wonder how I could have misunderstood such a positive message.

As for on the hook, it was a term, as I pointed out, and perhaps sense I am on army.ca, have spent a good portion of my life in the forces, been on tour, worked as a med-A while going to nursing school, and I am joining as a NO I think I would be considered pro-military.  One could say I don't need a hook to join.  With that being said I felt obligated to share my experiences and observations.  Some of the things I said were based on what other people have told me, and from friends of mine who are NO now, while the rest was based on myself.

I am trying to paint a picture to help this individual decide.

Picture this:  

You are a Capt. NO and you are now going to an ER to develop you skills.  You show up and you are pared with a RN who shows you the ropes.  Are you in charge? No it is more like a 2IC role.  It will never be just you and your patients, but you and your patients, and the nurse who is working there.  That might be ok out of school, but say it is 4 years down the road.  Could you see yourself in the student role all the time?  Just like in school? Do you want to work in many fields? Like ER, NICU, or CCU, work ECMO, ect...  Some of those options are not there for you.  Ask yourself what type of person you are and if this will work for you, and if you can see the unique challenges of work as a NO balancing out your career.

Or maybe:

You want to do the NO thing, and the idea of going overseas, doing clinics, and the military training excites you and you can't see yourself going to the hospital day after day.  You pick up things quickly and  you are not worried about rusting out, and the role you will have when you will be working in the hospital is fine with you.  You don't care if you have a buddy who is showing you the ropes when you are doing your clinical time as once you walk out of the hospital it doesn't matter.

Like I said, it is all about where you fit in, and how you want to serve.  I am not saying don't go for it but really think about what you want to do.  In my case, I think it is obvious by now, I am the first story.  I have worked in the medical branch and I know the deal.  I know what a NO does, and how the training goes, and my answer was simple: I will work as a civi and then use my skills as a NO when the military needs me, and in the mean time I can use that time to develop my skills.

Am I happy that I did it this way?  Going through school, the answer would have been a maybe.  Did I reconsider from time to time?  Yes, especially when I was working with the military anyway, but now that it is done it is all good.  I am at my end point, the place I wanted to be.


----------



## Hot Lips

Lima_Oscar said:
			
		

> I wouldn't recommend going through the ROTP route.  If you are just going into nursing and have an interest in the CF, a better route would be joining the reserves as a med tech.  That way you get the feel of what the military is like and without trapping yourself with obligatory service.
> 
> However, nursing in the CF is changing...with the CF Nursing 2020 Initiative, we are moving back into a more clinical role.  New graduates must now complete 2 years of med/surg consolidation at a civilian hospital (Halifax, Valcartier, Ottawa, Edmonton, or Esquimalt).  Once you have completed your consolidation, you have the options  of going into specialities: Primary Care, Emergency/Critical Care, Operating Room, Mental Health, or Air Med Evac.  So in the very near future, "NOs in the military do more administration and other military activities then actual patient care nursing" will no longer be valid.
> 
> If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me.


Please see above with reference to the future of clinical skills...as well when we had people "shadow" as you put it when I worked ER, they pretty much worked up to being independent with only the peer as a reference source
or supervisor, which wouldn't be any different if you worked ER...you always have a clinical leader and it would take you a number of years even in the civilian world to become a clinical supervisor.
I appreciate what you have said heshey I just happen to have an alternative view...not based on time in as you have said but time in on civvie street...and good friends who nurse in the Regs full-time.

HL


----------



## herseyjh

True, my interactions with NOs have only been as a Med-A working with NOs, intercations with NOs in the hospital setting, and personal friendships.  That was my basis for going on my own and then the PRL.  The lack of clinical time was my reasoning, but perhaps things are changing, after all it has been over two years sense I was directly involved in the medical branch.  Time will tell how this consolidation will mold the future of military nursing.


----------



## Lima_Oscar

herseyjh, I fully understand where you are coming from...and yes, there are a still a lot of gaps in the Nursing 2020 Initiative.  However, we all have to start somewhere.  If there are no new NOs coming into the reg force and no new people feeding it, how will there ever be a future for NOs in the CF?

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Hot Lips

I think it would be a great idea to support people who are interested and promote the trade... 
In the civilian world nurses masacre and eat their young.


HL


----------



## FutureNurse

Thank you all for the informative (and lively) debate. Very interesting perspectives from a number of different angles! I received a letter today from my recruiting centre indicating that, despite considerable interest in my application on the part of the selection board, due to fierce competition, I have not been selected for the ROTP at this time. Disappointing to be sure, but I certainly do understand the competition I was up against, and appreciate the Forces' kind response. 

The letter does indicate that I could be a very good candidate for other enrolment plans (I imagine this may refer to the DEO program). Joining the CF is a goal that I am passionate about achieving. Any thoughs about a nursing student applying through this route? 

Again, thanks all for your insight. 

FutureNurse


----------



## FutureNurse

One other quick question. Because my application file to the ROTP has been closed, should I wish to pursue other potential entry plans, would I be required to complete the entire application process from the beginning? 

Regards
FutureNurse


----------



## kincanucks

FutureNurse said:
			
		

> One other quick question. Because my application file to the ROTP has been closed, should I wish to pursue other potential entry plans, would I be required to complete the entire application process from the beginning?
> 
> Regards
> FutureNurse



Contact the CFRC/D to see what is needed to reopen your file.


----------



## herseyjh

Having NOs a MOC in the reserves might be a way of meeting the CFs needs.  Nursing students who train, and work as Med-As right now can't move into a NO spot once they graduate.  In a way this would be the middle ground, between what I did, and say going regular force.


----------



## Future-Nurse

I am starting my Bachelors in Nursing in Fall 07. I have applied for the ROTP program.
I was wondering about few things.

1. How is advancement(promotions etc) in CF as far as No's are concerned.
2. What are the chances/opportunities of furthering your education once you've become a NO in CF.
3. Is it possible to do Med school if accepted, once you are a NO in CF.

Thanks


----------



## medicineman

Future-Nurse said:
			
		

> I am starting my Bachelors in Nursing in Fall 07. I have applied for the ROTP program.
> I was wondering about few things.
> 
> 1. How is advancement(promotions etc) in CF as far as No's are concerned.
> 2. What are the chances/opportunities of furthering your education once you've become a NO in CF.
> 3. Is it possible to do Med school if accepted, once you are a NO in CF.
> 
> Thanks



1.  Getting beyond Capt can be a crap shoot from what I've seen - but the money is still pretty good as a Capt.

2.  There is always room for fruthering education - either on your own or with help from the CF.  My last boss was working on a MSN (NP) by distance ed, you can apply for post-grad specialist training after a certain point as well.  Depends on where you are, what you're doing operationally and your bosses.

3.  If you want to go into medicine, you can apply to MMTP once you're in.  But, if I'm not mistaken, you have to complete your obligatory service from ROTP first.  Of course, you also have to get accepted into medical school as well.

Hope that helps.

MM


----------



## Lima_Oscar

medicineman said:
			
		

> 1.  Getting beyond Capt can be a crap shoot from what I've seen - but the money is still pretty good as a Capt.



Not necessary true...we are seeing more opportunities for advancement than previously as more senior people are retiring. 

If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to PM me.


----------



## Future-Nurse

Anybody here going through ROTP Nursing Officer program.
Would be interesting in  knowing your process and views.
Thanks


----------



## HCA123

We have a number of nurses in my unit that went the ROTP route. If you have any specific questions, I can probably link you to one of them.

Cheers


----------



## shjbryan

Future-Nurse,

  It is a good program. It is as popular as any other trade, as far as I can tell recruiting-wise. They pay you a small salary, tution is paid by the army, books are paid for the army, and you take your training during the summer months. I applied in November and found out I was accepted in February of next year. I am in my third year now. 

Good luck if you go for it,

shjbryan


----------



## armyvern

Future Nurse,

There is one here on the Island doing his nursing as well. Same applies as the below comments...if you've got a question he may be able to answer for you...I can pass it on, he should be bringing me his bills to pay in the next couple of days.


----------



## Future-Nurse

Armyvern,shjbryan,Mud Recce Man,HCA123,sigpig
Thank You all for your responses and help.
I applied for ROTP (NO) in late august this year and also applied to the Undergraduate studies (first year) nursing program at University. I've been told by my adviser(university) that I have well enough grades to get accepted for the Fall 07 studies. 
And recruiting centre told me to get the letter of acceptance to them as soon as I get in. So, I am just waiting to hear from the school which probably won't happen till march next year. 
Anyhow thanks again for all your help and I'll for sure bug you guys again.


----------



## Tacticalnurse

Ditto to what Medicine Man said..........AND - No big bonus $$ for you if you go MMTP straight from NO. Reg F O's can received UP TO $25,000.00 in education assistance post grad (that is the sponsored program), $8,000 max for the rest.

Captain is straight forward, courses + time in. Major is limited in NO, also HSO avail. Be a while though!!

Good Luck.


----------



## Future-Nurse

Hello
I thought I'll keep you guys posted on my application status.
I received a phone call from CFRC Calgary Friday afternoon, booking my prep interview, medical and Interview on Nov 23rd,30th and Dec 7th, respectively.
Things are looking good and moving forward.
Again thanks for all your help.

Regards

FN


----------



## swanita

Well, this is something i have considered for a couple years. I'm an infantry reserve MCpl & have just graduated with my BScN (post diploma) & have been an RN for 5yrs now....still contemplating making the move as it does really interest me to be an NO but something keeps holding me back.


----------



## Armymedic

Perhaps you are happy as a civilian nurse, actually doing your job, one you enjoy, on every shift?


----------



## swanita

I wish it was that i was happy as a civvie nurse but unfortunately it's not. Let me clarify that i love my job but looking for something more....just not quite sure what    Obviously more thinking needed on my part!


----------



## Future-Nurse

Hello again,
I had my NO interview today and everything went as I expected. Interview went pretty good and in my debriefing, I was told that I am a suitable candidate and my ROTP application looks strong. So, my interviewer told me to just continue with my studies and play the waiting game till Feb or March 07. Also I was told to continue with my exercise routines in case I get an offer and go to BOTC in summer.
So seems like a good indication that I might get an offer(keeping my fingers crossed).

Thanks again for all your help and support.
Regards,
RN


----------



## one_speed

Hey folks,

In general I have been moving through my chain of command for more info, but I have been meeting some difficulty getting timely and up to date information, hence presenting the case here on army.ca.  I am a practising civi RN x 4 years (ER / Trauma specialty) and have been commissioned as a Reservist RN since 2003.  2 years as a 2Lt before being able to complete my BRT (Comm Res School Shilo kicks ***)  and attain my promotion to Lt (finally).  When I was being recruited the spiel was that I'd commission as a 2Lt, pending my completing BRT, then my promotion would go through retroactive to day 1 (with pay differential for days served).  Is this typical for other new NO's ?

The other question that I would like to put forward to the forum concerns the course schedule for NO's.  Is there anyone out there that can let me know what I might expect ?  I am planning on spending a lot of time at CFB Borden in the near future, but the sooner I know what is going to happen the better I can plan ahead and offer my self more fully to the CF reserves.  

Any and all info I might gain would be a great help.

cheers, Ian


----------



## Fraser.g

Well, yes you will be spending some time in Borden but not alot as a reservist.

The progression in the reserves for an NO is almost the same as a Res HCA
BCT (Med), ICT (Med), Staff officers course (Just changed name), ACT (Med) and down the line.
They are modularizing BNOC for the reserves but I have not seen it yet.

The argument is that you are maintaining your skills on civi street so the army is going to work on your administration and command stuff.

Each of the above courses is two weeks long and are done about one a year.

Take a look at this CFAO link and esp Annex C:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-12_e.asp

Hope this helps

PM me if you want more. 

GF


----------



## quebecrunner

BCT is 3 weeks.


----------



## MED_BCMC

quebecrunner said:
			
		

> BCT is 3 weeks.



.. for now. The latest rumours out of CFMSS regarding BCT Med is that within 2-3 years, the regular force "Basic Field" course will be broken down for reserve Nurses, Doctors and HCAs. The course would include fieldcraft skills, leadership skills, weapons handling, finances, CFPAS, etc, as well as medical specific trade skills, so therefore, HCAs would not be required to take the CAP course anymore.

Just the latest water cooler discussion.


----------



## Gunner98

Rumours, watercoolers, 2-3 years, no CAP for HCAs. 

Thanks for the trip to the Fantasyland theme park outside of Angus. I love IHIWTTSATW talk.

HUMINT Translation for IHIWTTSATW - I heard it while talking to someone at the watercooler.


----------



## coopman33

Hello all!

I was wondering if it is possible to re muster from Nursing officer to Infantry...

The reason I'm asking this is b/c I'm currently a nursing student that is thinking of applying to join the infantry reserve.   However, I have heard that nurses and doctors are needed in the Canadian Forces and that the army may not even give me a chance to apply for infantry and would most likely try to steer me into the nursing officer route.  

That being said, in my particular position (being a nursing student), would it be a waste of time to apply for infantry?

And if I were to go the nursing officer route and this nagging desire of mine to join the infantry still doesn't fade, would it be possible for me to re muster to infantry (assuming i meet all the qualifications)?

I guess what I'm basically asking is that does my future civilian profession in nursing basically veto me from any career as an infantryman?

Any help much appreciated.


----------



## herseyjh

I went the other way, so from infantry to nursing.  From personal experience I know people who have civilian trades that the military needs but have decided on a very different military career.  My advice to you is pick the military trade that you want.  Personally, in a way, I found once I moved over to the medical branch a small part of me wished I stayed with the infantry.  I am not saying I regret my move, rather all week long I think 'medical' so when I am with the green team it would be nice to think 'infantry' to spice things up so to speak. 

Pick what you want to do and you will have a rewarding career with the forces.


----------



## brihard

First off, I just want to confirm you are in fact going reserves.

If that's the case, you can be whatever damn trade you please. My regiment has people of all kinds of different professions and backgrounds serving as infanteers (the nice new non-gender-specific term for infantry). If you want to join as infantry, they can't force you to go nursing officer- particularly not in the reserves.

One of question; would you be joining the infantry reserves as an officer or as non commissioned?


----------



## Staff Weenie

The Recruiting Centre may try and steer or push you towards being a Reserve Nurse. But, there is not a darn thing in the National Defence Act or Queen's Regulations and Orders that says they can force you to do this during peace time.

The Canadian Forces Health Services Group HQ was pushing Canadian Forces Recruiting Group to 'steer' all civilian clinicians applying for the Reserves into our realm.

As somebody who has spent 15 years in the CF Health Services, I can say it's a huge mistake! Do what you want to do - if that's Infantry - then be an Infanteer. If you want to drive big trucks, go into a Service Battalion (there was Doctor who found driving the trucks was a great stress reliever - and was also a childhood dream). 

Your personal feeling of success and contribution will only be realized by following your dreams - not by filling somebody's quota!

If, in 10 or 20 years, you've decided that chasing through the woods isn't your game any more, come on over to our side - we'll still be here.

Good Luck!


----------



## medaid

Ah dang! Staff Weenie... you beat me to it! Okay... as a recruiter I would STRONGLY... even... EXTREMELY STRONGLY to encourage you to becoming a Nursing Officer. We need em. Desperately. BUT, that being said. I agree with everyone else. Join and be what YOU want to be, many people dont want to do the same jobs they do on civi side, that's fair enough. All the best luck to you and your decision. Remember, Health Services will always be there for you to apply to!


----------



## Armymedic

Screw that part time NO crap. Do the infantry officer thing in the reserves for 3-4 yrs until you complete your nursing degree, then transfer over to the Reg F as a NO. It will be a true benefit for yourself and those med techs who work for you to have that experience.


----------



## Gramps

When I was in the reserves a number of years ago we had an Armoured officer who is an anesthesiologist so it should not be a huge problem.


----------



## mover1

We had a dude called off his phase course once to fly to Toronto to do surgery, guy was a freakin brain surgeon. We asked him why he was an Armoured officer. He said that people payed big bucks to do this for fun he decided to do it and get paid at the same 

Do what you want to do and don't let the recruiters put you into something you don't want to do.

Gramps hows the baby.......


----------



## Gunner98

There is at least one Reg Force Nurse who became an Artillery Officer.


----------



## proudnurse

Gramps said:
			
		

> When I was in the reserves a number of years ago we had an Armoured officer who is an anesthesiologist so it should not be a huge problem.



It's interesting what paths people take in life......ever neat

~Rebecca~


----------



## twistidnick

I was just wondering if anyone could elaborate on all the aspects and opportunities of No's in the Field/on a base/on the homefront. Every bit of info will be welcome.... A bit of background, I have been in the PRes for just over a year and I just was excepted to a pre-nursing /university prep program at Algonquin college. Once i get in to the collaborative program with Algonquin and the U of O, I am going to get my frontal lobotomy and go Reg force officer. I have seen the recruiting video and i would just like to hear about the job from the real people doing it. Thanks

(Mods move if you feel necessary.)


----------



## stefwills

Anyone know how many nursing spots there are for this year? (ROTP) Or is it undefined and they just get a rough number of nurses?


----------



## macgyver

" Nursing in the CF is changing...with the CF Nursing 2020 Initiative, we are moving back into a more clinical role.  New graduates must now complete 2 years of med/surg consolidation at a civilian hospital (Halifax, Valcartier, Ottawa, Edmonton, or Esquimalt).  Once you have completed your consolidation, you have the options  of going into specialities: Primary Care, Emergency/Critical Care, Operating Room, Mental Health, or Air Med Evac. "

Does anyone on the board have any info on DEO to MedEvac? Was a R041 x ~14 yrs (also crosstrained as Med-Aide once upon a time) and nursing since 2002 (3412 hrs CIVE in-flight time as CCEMT-P and then RN). Interested in a PRes position in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary or Edmonton with a chance at CF Air Med Evac or deployment.

Currently on a Pede-Neo specialty team but also have significant adult and some high-risk OB transport experience. In-hospital experience = tertiary Pediatric float pool, ER, PICU, NICU. Currently in Portland and have multisystem truama experience flying in Alberta, NWT, Northern BC, Yukon, Nunavut, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado).


----------



## Donut

There are very few flt medics or flt nurses in the HS Res; most have come from the Reg F.

Even those who have extensive civi air-evac time have been required to complete the CF Aeromedical Evac Courses; I've got a Res Medic/Flight EMT-P working for me now who is currently freezing his soft fleshy bits off outside Winnipeg on one of the phases he needs for Roto 5.

I suspect your chances of DEO into a firm flight nurse position are slim to nil, but you'd always be welcome to come in as a GDNO and make your case up the chain.

All flight medical assets are being consolidated in Trenton over the next couple of years, so if you're hoping to fly out of one of those cities, that's probably not going to happen, either (although I know of at least one Flight/CCNO who works out of Winnipeg).

Hope this answers your questions,

PMT


----------



## aesop081

macgyver said:
			
		

> Interested in a PRes position in Victoria, Vancouver, Calgary or Edmonton with a chance at CF Air Med Evac or deployment.



You wont be doing MEDEVAC in those locations


----------



## macgyver

Yeah, I was pretty sure all flying was done by Trenton crews. No problem in doing the CF Aeromedical Evac Course assuming I could wrangle my way onto it. C-130 and multiple patients is a lot different than 1 to 3 in a small turboprop etc. Plus they are noisy - have flown a critical patient (as a civilian paramedic) on one of 435's before. Any education is a good thing and the emergency proceedures will be a lot different from a small to medium RW or FW craft. What I was wondering was the chances of entering as a reserve NO in those areas and then over the next few years getting re-trained the CF way and then a posting, deployment or position back east or overseas. 

Also kind of was thinking about going the Medic route since positions are likely available nearby (west) that I could fill while keeping my nursing job, but as I understand it would have to requal my 3's and get 5/6a/6b before being able to do much or deploy in a manner that would allow me to use my experience etc as apparently no entry path exists that recognises civilian paramedic training. Despite being first an EMT/PCP in 86 then REMT-P/ACP (91), CCEMT-P/CCP (96). Plus my nursing in 02 and Bachelors in 06. Even passed the FP-C (Certified Flight Paramedic) exam in US which is harder than the CFRN ...

Have a buddy (flight nurse and former 82nd now with the US SF) in a similar position over in the sandbox who went the enlisted route and said that unit level utilisation of his experience was great but the chain of command was (typically) SNAFU and limiting+++ so I guess things are the same everywhere.

Kind of frustrating that I cannot re-enlist and use the skills and experience gained while a civilian to help our guys...even if not flying.


----------



## stefwills

I'm applying for ROTP nursing as well, but when I bring my application in to the CFRC, I won't have an acceptance letter yet, all I will have is the letter saying they have received my application. Is this sufficient for the time being, and bring the acceptance to the CFRC when I get it?
Cheers,


----------



## shjbryan

Stefwills,

   Give them what you got, but I would think that they will consider the applicant with acceptance letters more seriously than the one with letters stating their application has been received. 
   Ask your CFRC, they can provide the best guiding answer.

Good luck!


----------



## kincanucks

Acceptance to an university must be provided before you are enrolled not when you apply.


----------



## stefwills

Anyone know the number of ROTP civy U nursing spots that are granted per year?


----------



## Nemo888

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> From my personal point of view, NOs in the military do more administration and other military activities then actual patient care nursing. We (medics) tended to joke that if you hate taking care of patients as a (civilian) nurse, join the military.



Seconded here. If you want to make less money and rarely touch a patient this is the place for you. My wife was thinking about it but went civvie after thoroughly checking out her options. She was promised a DEO spot but decided against it. Finished her first year at the hospital Jan 4th. Looking at her pay stub the extra 18K came in handy, now she gets a big raise on top of that. She also has no military hassles like postings, career managers, etc. She is a great nurse though. Three hospitals were fighting over her. I could see going military if you had less career potential.


----------



## aesop081

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I could see going military if you had less career potential.



I'm sure every nurse in the CF is glad to hear they are the bottom of the nursing gene pool

 :


----------



## jalara

ROTP Nurse:

Yes, like any other degree you must be accepted before you can enrol, but you can receive a conditional offer of employment should you be selected, pending you'e university acceptance.

Nursing is obviously the most competitive undergrad, so I wish you all the best of luck.

What else do people want to know?


----------



## jricRN

Hi there, this is a call-out to all of the NO's out there, as well as anyone who is familiar with their role. I have been reading numerous of posts and topics, which have answered some questions and created new ones. This question pertains to the actual role that nurses play in the CF. I read some old posts (2005) saying that the CF is moving away from the “nurses do only admin stuff” to a more hands-on role. Is this true and has anyone experienced it?

I am a University graduate that is pursuing a career in Nursing. What I see myself doing is working in a fast-paced environment (I want to specialize in ER/ Anesthesiologist Nursing). I see myself volunteering for many deployments (war and humanitarian). I am still trying to figure out if the Reserves or the Regular force is for me. If joining the Regs means that I work a desk job, I will probably just join the reserves.

Any insight into this CF career would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 2fly

Multiple roles actually.  RN's work on both admin roles, triage, assessments, intake, etc but for the most part it is management of the walking wounded unless you are in theatre.  Once you get to theatre you can see some trauma depending on where you end up.  As for the anesthesia...  Are you talking about OR/Scrub nurse or are you talking about Nurse Anesthetists?  For OR/Scrub, there are positions in the OR and assisting with proceedures.  As for the NA role.. That is not defined in Canada as of yet; only in the States.  Too bad really since down in the US, the NA's make a whole truck load of money (100K +).


----------



## 421_434_226

You may find this site helpful

http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=57


----------



## jricRN

2fly - Thanks for the info. I am specifically talking about NAs. I was under the assumption that that nursing specialty was offered in Canada. I say this because my friend is also planning to go that route and has some extensive research. My comment was based on passing hearsay, but since he is a domestic fellow and does not like to leave home, I assume he is talking about an Ontario University.

Could you expand on where NOs actually work? I have received a reply from another member stating that they do some clinical work at civilian hospitals, but outside of that, where do they work? MIRs? 

421_434_226 – Thanks for the website. I have pretty much memorized that page and the recruiting centre cannot provide me with some of the specific questions that I have. I am therefore turning to people who have been there and done that.


----------



## 2fly

jricRN said:
			
		

> I am specifically talking about NAs. I was under the assumption that that nursing specialty was offered in Canada. I say this because my friend is also planning to go that route and has some extensive research. My comment was based on passing hearsay, but since he is a domestic fellow and does not like to leave home, I assume he is talking about an Ontario University.
> 
> Could you expand on where NOs actually work? I have received a reply from another member stating that they do some clinical work at civilian hospitals, but outside of that, where do they work? MIRs?



Yeah, I heard that McMaster, Queens and UWO are working towards ANP Anesthesia but before all of that is brought into play CNA has to have the framework in place for the NA's Role in practice and have the provinces on board.  As it stands, it has taken many years for the NP's Role and scope to be defined in all of the provinces and some of the Provinces are just starting to get the kinks ironed out now.  Saying that, I am specifically speaking of CCNP and ACNP.  There are still a fair number of Provinces that only have NP working in the rural areas as advanced practice outreach nurses and not in the cities as acute care (ER) or critical care settings.

With all of that being said, the NP's role in DND is still in the trial phases.  DND hired a few for trials around 2004 (ish) and they have not implemented them as a career field as of yet... Long way to go.  With respect to the Advance Practice Nurse Anesthetist, I am suspecting that it will be a number of years (5+) before that is introduced in all of Canada.  Expecially since DND requires RN's to be registered in the province that they are practicing in.  With DND being National, that means that every province in Canada will have to allow NA's to be licenced.  That will take years to get coordinated.  As for the Anesthesia Assistant, that would be a whole other topic. lol

As for the NO's, base clinics, base hositals (MIR walking wounded with the 1-4 cases of emerg visits a day if the base hosital has one) and yes civi hospitals are all places of employ.  Keep in mind, the civi hospitals are used only to keep skills current and not a permanent solution.  NO's do not work long term in civi hospitals.  For acute care, you see most of the bases having a working agreement with the local EMS for transport to civi hospital by both amb and medi flight as required.

Hope this helps...


----------



## jricRN

Wow, thanks for the amazing answer!! Yes, the program at McMaster is the one I was referencing. I am starting my two-year second-entry Nursing Degree at U of T in September, so after that time, and the required 2 years of clinical experience, I will apply for my NP. Hopefully by that time, the CF will have something in place.

Based on your best guess, do you think that working in the CF will give me the necessary two years of clinical experience needed for the NP application. I have sent an email to U of T regarding this, but have not yet received a reply.


----------



## jricRN

Is there a website or some resource that lists the locations of the MIRs?


----------



## 2fly

No, not really.  All bases in Canada have an MIR.  The size of the MIR is the question, some are bigger than others ranging from a small clinic to a base hospital with surgical ward.  As for the locations and facilities/services provided, sorry I would rather not say where they all are in a public forum.


----------



## jricRN

My next question pertains to where I will be placed.

Do the CF place you just based on where there is a need. I received a reply from another member saying that it costs the Crown more to ship you away farther from your family, but is that only true if you have a family (IE spouse/ common law)? Currently, I am single, but my situation is that I am an only child, and my mother is divorced living alone? Would they take that fact into consideration when placing me? I currently live in the GTA area, so ideally, I would not want to go farther than Ottawa. Is this reasonable??


----------



## 2fly

A member is strictly at the mercy of the career manager.  Annually you will have an interview with him/her and they will ask you where you want to be posted.  Normally, they ask for the top three locations you want to be posted to and they try to post you to that location "dependant on the needs of the forces".  That catch all is there way of saying they will try to post you where you want but dont be upset if you get posted some place else.

It is true, they try not to move you away from your family (married, kids, etc) but unless your mother is a living in your home with you or a situation exists that warrents being on a compassionate status, they will not take that into account.

Hope this helps...


----------



## Kristeng

Hey everyone just a quick question about Nurses in the CF. I know Combat medics (med techs) are on the front lines but can nurses be too? After finishing schooling for BScN and enrolling do you have that option to say if you are deployed for non humanitarian missions that you want to get your boots dirty? Please someone let me know. 

Thanks


----------



## Armymedic

Before the staff throws up the rainbow instructions, there are a bunch of threads discussing CF medical services found here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/board,45.0.html

As a nurse (officer) there is not many opportunities to get your boots dirty. Your nursing role is purely support in the rear areas, i.e. Role 3 unit in KAF or 1 Cdn Fd Hosp back here at home.

There are nurses in the 2nd line units, but their roles are more administrative and leadership than patient care.

DART is your best go. Afghanistan, you'll get lots of work, but it is the same hospital work as here at home, but in someone else's country.


----------



## ComdCFRG

For some more information again, get on the chat with the recruiters at www.forces.ca - they can connect you offline to some med specialists including nurses to expand on what SFB has described.

MKO


----------



## FloNightingale

Hi Everyone!

I have spent a lot of hours on this site reading about different topics in the recruiting section and have found a great deal of relevant, useful information. Thank you everybody!

However, there is a limited amount of info available when it comes to specifics about the ROTP - Nursing Officer career path. 

I was wondering if there was anybody here, perhaps someone who is now an NO who joined up via ROTP, or a recruiter familiar with this career, who could provide me with some insight into Nursing in the CF. Where are the 4 base hospitals in Canada? Is it common to be deployed once you are an NO? Is there an opportunity for specializing in the CF? What sort of work environment should I expect in the CF?

Today I wrote my aptitude test and had a target interview. My file is on hold until December, at which time I am to come back for a full interview, then book a medical. If my application is accepted I was informed to be prepared for BMOQ next summer :-D

I may not be able to get through because of bad choices I made in my teen years. The target interviewer did not allude to this, yet I am well enough aware anyways. Those thoughtless choices resulted in my not achieving what I am capable of academically in high school. I am currently in a full time college Pre-Health sciences program that will prepare me for Nursing at a civvie uni. next fall. I understand there is quite a bit of competition to get into the ROTP program as an NO, and my question is this: given that I will have high marks this year in college, and will be getting an acceptance letter into nursing for next fall, should I still expect to get denied because of my immoral history? 

I have wanted to join the military for a few years now, but havent gotten serious about starting the process and making final, permanent changes to my lifestyle until just a few months ago. I fully understand and agree that another applicant with the same academic average as I have but with no history of substance use is considered a more qualified candidate. I'm just curious to know if I should expect to re-apply to the ROTP plan after my first year of uni., or if I must wait 6 years and join via DEO. Whatever the outcome, I will do everything in my power to achieve this goal (of becoming an NO) and am prepared to prove to the CF that I am now a responsible, mature applicant.

Thank you for your consideration!

As an aside, I have searched and searched for the site guidelines and could not find them!! Could somebody please direct me to where I can find them. This is my first post and I hope I have not violated them. If so, I apologize.


----------



## FDO

A friend of mine is a Nurseing Officer in the CF. She has done 2 tours to Afganistan. I also know that they serve with the US forces. I had a chat with a American Navy Nurse who served on USNS Comfort, the US Navy's hospital ship, and he said there were several Canadian Nurses on there and they impressed him with their level of knowledge and compassion. I don't think sayong they are less competent that thier civvy counterparts is fair or correct. However I will agree they are paid less that in a civvy hospital.


----------



## FloNightingale

Oh wow! I'd love to go overseas. That must have been one heck of an experience! I didn't know that, that CF nurses work with Americans on their own ships. Does that also go the other way around? As in, do American personnel work and live on our ships, bases, etc? It must be due to staffing shortage, or maybe it has something to do with coalition forces? From what I've read they get paid less, yet there are more accomodations made for CF nurses and their families as opposed to civvie nurses.


----------



## FloNightingale

On that note, if I want to start a family during my contract with the CF (the 64 months long one that is paying back the CF for my school years through the ROTP), am I allowed to? Is there a way to have a child and perhaps have daycare during the days that I work that is provided by or funded by the CF? I havent actually looked up the maternity leave policy but I was wondering if there was a different procedure for somebody who joined via ROTP.


----------



## gcclarke

FloNightingale said:
			
		

> On that note, if I want to start a family during my contract with the CF (the 64 months long one that is paying back the CF for my school years through the ROTP), am I allowed to? Is there a way to have a child and perhaps have daycare during the days that I work that is provided by or funded by the CF? I havent actually looked up the maternity leave policy but I was wondering if there was a different procedure for somebody who joined via ROTP.



Ummmm yes, you can have children. It would be absolutely draconian if the Forces forced their members to have abortions.

If you do decide to take Maternity Leave, you will incur some obligatory service that will be tacked on to the amount of obligatory service that you incur as part of ROTP. And of course, any time spent on Maternity leave does not count as time served towards your obligatory service.

No, daycare is not funded or provided by the Canadian Armed Forces. Your childcare costs are your own responsibility. As well, it is up to you to arrange for child care plans in the event that you are sent on operations.


----------



## MasterInstructor

This question is for my Girlfriend;

Can you choose Navy, Army, Air Force as a Nursing Officer or does it apply to all? 

I am in the application process to become a Nav Comm and hoping to be posted to CFB Esquimalt. What are the chances of her being posted to or around CFB Esquimalt? I am not sure of military has their own hospitals? I am guessing ships have Nurses on board while at sea? And yes, we are common law. 

Thanks


----------



## RubberTree

Nursing is considered a "purple" trade meaning an army nurse can just as easily be posted to a naval base as an army one. That being said, the CF has a specific number of positions for Nursing officers in each of the elements and if one is full you may have to go in another. (I asked for air and was offered sea).

It is possible for you to be posted together however it is not a hard and fast rule. Expect to spend time apart and to even be posted apart on occasion.

The military does not have their own hospitals anymore. We have clinics and some small day surgery ORs. Nurses practice in these clinics and spend some time in civilian hospitals to keep up their currencies. Other times we work in administrative positions.

Nurses do not go on ships. Drs, MedTechs and PAs do.


----------



## FDO

You may want to double check the no Nurses on ships thing.  I sailed on the Tanker a few years ago and we had 2 also I have talked with several CF nurses that did tours with the US Navy on board the  USN Comfort and USN Mercy. 

The CF now a days does try very hard to post Spouses together. Girfriends maybe a bit less. However, Esquimalt does have a hospital/clinic. And as far as uniform is concerned she will have to see what's available when she comes in. She can choose and it is possible to change elements once your in. Possible but not gauranteed.


----------



## Armymedic

RubberTree said:
			
		

> The military does not have their own hospitals anymore. We have clinics and some small day surgery ORs. Nurses practice in these clinics and spend some time in civilian hospitals to keep up their currencies. Other times we work in administrative positions.
> 
> Nurses do not go on ships. Drs, MedTechs and PAs do.



The military does not have any big hospitals, but still employees nurses in a hospital role in several locations. Unfortunately, a nurse in the CF is an officer, so there are taskings in which a nursing officer are employed that do not involve any patient care. Specifically for you, there are military medical facilities in Esquimalt, Vancouver, and Halifax where many nurses are employed. 

My advice to your spouse is; if she enjoys nursing, tell her to join the medical reserves. That way she can still be tasked for overseas job, and still work full time in nursing, and avoid the admin roles most military nurses dislike.

Also, roles for nurses on CF ships is extremely limited, but there are always exchanges with the USN and Royal Navy.


----------



## nursingsrn10

I'm seriously considering applying for DEO as a nurse in the Canadian Army. I'm in my last two months of preceptorship and currently enrolled in Ryerson University, Toronto. Hopefully taking the CRNE on June. Are there any signing bonus for nurses in the CF? This will help me pay my OSAP loan if ever. Any other benefits of joining the CF? I am not really after the bonuses, I really want to be an officer. But I guess it wouldnt hurt if I get help paying my loans. Thanks for the kind reply. I may have missed a lot of threads, I apologize!


----------



## nursingsrn10

Hi Simian,

Thanks for the reply!Now I know!Yeah hopefully I will graduate as BScn this year and be an RN on June.I'm still considering CF after graduation though!


----------



## gcclarke

Actually, just for the record, that list is somewhat outdated. The most recent list is outlined in CANFORGEN 120/09. Still no allowance for Nursing Officers unfortunately. 



> RECRUITMENT ALLOWANCES FOR UNDERSTRENGTH MILITARY OCCUPATIONS
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> REFS: A. CANFORGEN 146/08 CMP 059 061550Z AUG 08
> B. CDS LETTER DATED XX JUNE 09
> C. CBI 205.525
> 
> EFFECTIVE 1 JUL 09, THE LIST OF OCCUPATIONS ELIGIBLE FOR A RECRUITMENT ALLOWANCE (REF A) IS RESCINDED AND REPLACED BY THE FOLLOWING UNDERSTRENGTH MILITARY OCCUPATIONS LIST (REF B):
> A. NE TECH (A) 00116
> B. NE TECH (C) 00117
> C. NE TECH (T) 00118
> D. SIG OP 00329
> E. BE TECH 00155
> F. SONAR OP 00324
> G. VEH TECH 00129
> H. LCIS TECH 00110
> I. AC OP 00337
> J. ATIS TECH 00109
> K. EGS TECH 00303
> L. FLT ENGR 00021
> M. NAV COMM 00299
> N. NW TECH 00017
> O. MED TECH 00334
> P. AMMO TECH 00169
> Q. ARTYMN-FD 00008
> R. MAR ENG MECH 00121
> S. MAR ENG ART 00123
> T. MAR EL 00126
> U. MLAB TECH 00152
> V. E TECH 00125
> W. AVS TECH 00136
> X. EO TECH 00327
> Y. PHARM 00194
> 
> THE ALLOWANCE AMOUNTS AND CONDITIONS OF ENTITLEMENT ARE AS SET OUT AT REF C



And yes, I know unfortunately we do a rather poor job of keeping the information that is put on the internet (vice intranet) up to date. Sorry.


----------



## gcclarke

Well, the key is to show up physically prepared. This thread has a lot of info about it: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/index.php?board=75.0

As for being mentally prepared... well, you probably know better than me how you are able to deal with stress. And if not... you'll pick it up quick enough.


----------



## white-1

I hate to bring back an old thread, but i figured after searching and finding it this is much better than starting a new one.  I am a current nursing student and am very interested in the CF as an option. I have been looking through the pay scales and i am a little confused. Do nurses fall under the category for regular officers, or the medical-dental category? 

thanks for any help!

by the way... because i know somebody is going to ask judging from all other posts related to money. I am not in it just for the money. I could make more starting out on civie street than in the forces. what i am interested in is the opportunity for experiences nursing abroad. 

Have a nice day!


----------



## ModlrMike

Nurses are paid as General Service Officers (GSO). Medical-Dental refers to physicians and dentists only.


----------



## Sofya C

Hello, 

I am an RN student, entering my last 4th year in university. Want to join Canadian Armed Forces after graduation. 

Question - do I get a choice to stay and serve in Canada or to go overseas? Or I am basically going to be sent wherever I am needed? 

Thank you


----------



## Armymedic

Answers to your questions

No, yes. But you will be asked, but they might not listen to the answer.

BTW, not to many positions overseas for nurses, except on operations. You will have a "home unit" somewhere here in Canada.


----------



## Alea

Sofya C said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I am an RN student, entering my last 4th year in university. Want to join Canadian Armed Forces after graduation.
> 
> Question - do I get a choice to stay and serve in Canada or to go overseas? Or I am basically going to be sent wherever I am needed?
> 
> Thank you



Hi Sofya,

You will probably be sent where ever needed wether it's for a tour overseas or a post in Canada. It comes with the job.
Yet, the best way to get a clear answer would be to contact a recruiter.

Take care,
Alea


----------



## Sofya C

Thanks for replies 
I get the idea
So if it's overseas operations, how long can those "trips" be?


----------



## PMedMoe

Sofya C said:
			
		

> Thanks for replies
> I get the idea
> So if it's overseas operations, how long can those "trips" be?



Usually 6 months but they can vary.  Keep in mind, that doesn't include work up training which you may have to attend at another base, away from home.


----------



## Sofya C

Cool, 
how often do you get to see/visit your family/friends then, when you are at a "home unit" somewhere in Canada for example?


----------



## PMedMoe

When you are posted to a home unit, your immediate family (spouse, children) are normally with you unless you are on a restricted posting.  As far as other family members & friends, depends on how far away they are.

Read some of the topics on the board and use the search function.  I'm sure almost any questions you have (regarding leave, postings, tours, training, etc) have been answered here at some point.


----------



## Sofya C

Another question, might sounds stupid tho, but what would be the exact examples of what nursing officers do? 
I bet it's not a bed-side nrs we are talking about

Thank you


----------



## nursingsrn10

Just came from a Recruiting Centre. I got interviewed unfortunately I have to wait for 2 more years to get in for the nursing job. I have only been in Canada for 5 years and in order for me to get in I have to be here for 7 years.  ??? ??? Too bad I badly want to join the forces..


----------



## Anton1981

Heya, guys. I am new here. I have some questions re Direct Nursing Officer plan...I spoke to the recruiter but still have a few questions. For starters I am 30 and just got married. I have been doing nursing for about 7-years, mostly worked in mental health but worked everywhere in that field pretty much from hospital to community and did a gig overseas as well. I have been thinking about the army for quite sometime but a bit worried that I might be a bit old to do the program cause anyone I talked to about it said that I should have do it in my 20s, its too late, blah…Plus the wife is worried about finances, accommodations etc…Anyone has done DEO in nursing here??? Or anyone can offer some advice??? Personally I feel this is the right career path for me… I am motivated and ready to make a commitment but just need some more info…
Thanks


----------



## bolt

While I am still in the process of joining as a DEO reservist, I do know someone who has been in the army for several years (is over 30) and is switching to nursing as an officer next year. She is excited about it. While I naturally defer to the CF veterans on here my 2 cents would be that it's up to you (and your family) to decide what's best for you. There are many people like myself who are not in their twenties anymore but more than happy to do something they wish they had done 10 years ago.

I personally wouldn't want to be in my 40's or 50's wishing I had joined up at 30.  So think about it, if you don't do this now, are you going to look back in 10 - 20 years and kick yourself for not at least trying it. After all, you can always go back to civilian nursing, albeit with additional leadership training and experience.

In regard to your concerns - "bit worried that I might be a bit old to do the program cause anyone I talked to about it said that I should have do it in my 20s, its too late, blah…Plus the wife is worried about finances, accommodations etc…"  I would sketch out a tentative 3 year plan to account for training, how much you'll make and so on so you can see real figures and get a clear sense of what you're getting into.

Another option would be the reserves, where you would still have your higher paying job initially, and then maybe when fully qualified or higher in rank you could consider going reg force. Best of luck to you.


----------



## Anton1981

Thank you for the post. Another question are you responsible for your accomodations while you are in officer training?
I read about it the process on paper but would love to speak to someone who has done it...My wife is supportive of this but
she wants hard facts...is there a specific recruiter I could speak to in DEO Nursing?? or how do I look for one???


----------



## Occam

If you're married, and will be away from "home" for training, you will not have to pay for rations & quarters.

As for your age - definitely not an issue.  We have recruits in their 50's.  As long as you can do the physical aspect of BMOQ, you're good to go.  I can't think of a reason why anyone would be telling you that 30 is too old for it...


----------



## Anton1981

I think I am in ok physical shape...I train about 4-5 times a week at least.
I wanted to see if there is a way I can talk or chat with a nursing officer just to discuss types of nursing work they do 
where i am expected to be placed and so on. Unfortunately recruiters I spoke to can only give general information.


----------



## Anton1981

Another thing...I do not want to be a pain the ass... but I need to sort of know how much realistically I am expected
to make salary wise while in training and how long that takes....it would not matter if was by myself but I need 
to make sure our budget can take it...


----------



## RubberTree

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfor-ofr-eng.asp

For CF Reg force pay scale

Once commissioned you will start at $4006/month. Not sure what you will get while at basic.


----------



## Anton1981

I looked at pay scale but still confused between A and B, it looks like while training you will get around 1500 or so
a month... Does anyone know how long the whole process takes??? I do not speak a word of French and will definately
need language training. In the info it is said that once you do basic, you then go to army nursing training and then 
to language prep...Has anyone gone through the whole thing here???
I hate asking all these questions about money
that's not the reason I am joining....but I am trying to plan ahead sort off....


----------



## Occam

Anton1981 said:
			
		

> I looked at pay scale but still confused between A and B, it looks like while training you will get around 1500 or so
> a month...



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp  (note: CBIs - Compensation and Benefit Instructions - are the bible for pay and benefit issues)

_204.211(9) (Rate of pay – DEO) An officer to whom the DEO plan applies shall be paid, for each month after the month and year specified in the table, at the rate of pay for the officer’s rank and pay increment as follows:

in the rank of lieutenant or second lieutenant 
with no former non-commissioned member service, in pay level C of Table "B" or "C" to this instruction_

Table B is 2Lt, Table C is Lt.  You do your initial training (BMOQ, at the very least), then you're promoted to 2Lt with a simultaneous promotion to Lt.  That puts you at the basic pay increment of pay level C of Table "C", which is $4006.  I'm not certain if commissioning occurs directly after BMOQ or not, but you don't spend a whole lot of time as an OCdt, I can assure you that.


----------



## Navy at Heart

Occam said:
			
		

> I'm not certain if commissioning occurs directly after BMOQ or not, but you don't spend a whole lot of time as an OCdt, I can assure you that.




For DEO applicants to NUR O, you will be promoted to 2Lt (Acting Sub-Lieutenent in the Navy) and simultaneously promoted to Lt (Sub-Lieutenent) upon completion of BMOQ and my understanding is that your promotion is back dated to your enrolment date, so your pay will also be back dated.


----------



## TBGal

Hello Everyone, 
I am currently Merit listed as DEO Nurse and hopefully waiting a call, just wanted to ask if anyone else is in the same boat as me and currently just waiting for the magical phone call, or share present experiences. I would love to hear all comments or experiences. 

CP (RN)


----------



## nursesp

Hey there everyone, 

My name is S and I'm a Registered Nurse living in BC. I'm 26 years old. 

I'm considering joining the military, and will be awaiting a phone call of acceptance very soon now I'm assuming. 

My question is, who out there is a nursing officer, and what do you think of your job? Is it what you had hoped for? How similar or different is it to civilian nursing?

I have a year experience working on a medsurg floor in a small community hospital. 

Thank you for ANY info on nursing officer in the forces. 

S


----------



## aesop081

nursesp said:
			
		

> I'm considering joining the military, and will be awaiting a phone call of acceptance very soon now I'm assuming.



Have you applied already ? You said "considering" so i am assuming you have not applied yet. If you have not applied, i wouldn't expect any sort of call, acceptance or otherwise, any time soon.


----------



## cdnrn

Hello all,

Just out of curiosity, out of all the people on this forum, how many have applied for DEO nursing officer positions for this year? Im under the understanding that there are 20 positions to be filled this year (one of which I'm hoping to be selected for as I am currently merit listed). From my RC I was told the selection board meets Mon July 18th, 2011, so good luck to all!


----------



## femmeRN

Hi cdnrn,

I am also merit listed for DEO Nursing Officer. I was told by my interviewer last month that the board sits June 20th. I called two weeks later to get an update and was told by the person managing my file that my file was undergoing security clearance and then will undergo "PLAR". I called a week later, was merit listed, and was told the board will sit last Friday. 
We seem to be getting different dates? I guess all we have to do is sit and wait for the offer to come because it seems like there are many different information going on. I was told that there are 20 positions available. I just hope that we get selected for those positions.


----------



## Summers

Hey,

I'm in the same basket!   I applied in December and do all my exams in January. I passed my interview on April 4. Since then... nothing.  I send e-mail once a month to the chef who takes care of my file, she always responds to me that I'm waiting for what she calls "the national qualification in Borden", however she said that there were 15 position for 2011...

However, I expect some movement soon :nod:. A friend of mine, who did his nursing course with me in 1995 is an instructor at St-Jean. He confirmed that there was an DEO cours starting November 1st, 2011.  I wish really hard to be on that one...

We'll cross our fingers that we are lucky enough to become nursing officer soon!


----------



## Summers

GOT MY ANWSER!!!

I begin my BMOQ on october 24th, 2011 !


----------



## NursyNurse

Summers said:
			
		

> GOT MY ANWSER!!!
> 
> I begin my BMOQ on october 24th, 2011 !




Congrats Summers,

I assume you will be on the French course in St-Jean ?! If so, I will see you there !


----------



## cdnrn

Hey congrats to the both of you!

Though we may not be in the same course, We will be in the same area so we may meet one day in the near future...Are you guys excited?? I am


----------



## Summers

I hope it's a French course, or at least a bilingual!
I'm not too bad in english, but I'm way better in french!
Do you know if it's a french course?  I asked but he never call me back to give me the answer!
I can't wait to be there, I'm afraid to be a little bit old,
But I've trained hard to be able to keep up!




			
				NursyNurse said:
			
		

> Congrats Summers,
> 
> I assume you will be on the French course in St-Jean ?! If so, I will see you there !


----------



## NursyNurse

@ Summers

Je t'envoies un message perso/PM inbound

AB


----------



## xo31@711ret

Summers, from an old snr nco medic: if you speak english as well as you write-post, you'll have zero problems, Good luck.
!
-gerry


----------



## curious george

1) Are the chances of getting a NO position higher if you're already an RN?  From reading the posts, the position seems very competitive.

2) I'm hearing mixed messages.  On one hand there is an over supply of nurses in the CF, but they are still hiring.  So, does the CF need nurses or not?  It would be so terrible if you spent your whole entire regular military career never having been deployed once.   :'(  Has this ever happened?

3) How do you advance through the ranks as a NO?  And realistically speaking, can a nurse reach major or beyond?


----------



## curious george

4) What are the 4 base hospitals in Canada?


----------



## RubberTree

1) Possibly yes...but speaking to a recruiter would yield a more accurate answer. There are obvious cost savings to the CF if you aren't put through ROTP.
2)Op tempo has been high for NOs just like it has been for most other trades in the past number of years. Many, many NOs have deployed. A recruiter can answer your question regarding the "need" for nurses and the numbers we have vs. the numbers we want. If you join, it would be my (educated) guess that you can expect to deploy provided you stick with it long enough.
3) An RN essentially enters as an Lt and will progress to Capt in a few years. Maj positions are limited but by no means unobtainable. There are two LCol positions for NOs and no Col and above positions. If you desire to progress beyond this point you will have to transfer to another occupation, most likely HSO.
4) The CF no longer has "hospitals" per se but do have clinics, some large some small. The 4 places you are probably thinking of are Edmonton, Ottawa, Halifax and Valcartier. Your postings however can be anywhere.


----------



## kincanucks

To qualify for direct entry as a Nursing Officer, you must be a graduate of a Bachelor’s degree program in nursing at an accredited university and be licensed to practice as a Registered Nurse in a province or territory of Canada.


----------



## MedCorps

curious george said:
			
		

> 1) Are the chances of getting a NO position higher if you're already an RN?  From reading the posts, the position seems very competitive.
> 
> 2) I'm hearing mixed messages.  On one hand there is an over supply of nurses in the CF, but they are still hiring.  So, does the CF need nurses or not?  It would be so terrible if you spent your whole entire regular military career never having been deployed once.   :'(  Has this ever happened?
> 
> 3) How do you advance through the ranks as a NO?  And realistically speaking, can a nurse reach major or beyond?



1) There are DEO's who are taken to the Nursing Officer MOSID. It is indeed competitive but if you are an RN and wish to serve you should put your best foot forward and take the leap and apply DEO.  

2) We always need people to replace our real or forecasted attrition from the Nursing Officer ranks. On our last DEO intake we took 15 candidates.  Currently the Nursing Officer MOSID is not in dire straits as it has been in the past but is currently accepting applications. The last time I looked for 2011-12 we are looking for 20 DEO officers and for 2012-13 we are looking for 15.  Once you are at the operationally functional point, it is quite possible to get a deployment as a nursing officer especially if you are keen and volunteer, or have a specialty qualification (Critical Care, Mental Health, or Operating Room).  

3) Captain is the working rank for Nursing Officers with about 160 of them.  There are however 21 Major positions and 3 LCol position as Nursing Officers.  Highly competitive, but if you are more driven and skilled then your peers you can attain the rank of Major.  At Major, Nursing Officers with the requisite leadership and attributes are eligible for selection to the Health Services Operations Officer MOSID.  This is contingent upon and offer being made and the officer accepting the occupational transfer. 

4) There are no Base Hospitals proper anymore. We do some inpatient care (Halifax, and I think Valcariter) but it is exceedingly rare. There are Nursing Officers posted coast to coast. 

I hope that is of help.  If you have questions contact me and I can get in you in touch with those most current. 

MC


----------



## Jacqueline

curious george said:
			
		

> 1) Are the chances of getting a NO position higher if you're already an RN?  From reading the posts, the position seems very competitive.
> 
> 2) I'm hearing mixed messages.  On one hand there is an over supply of nurses in the CF, but they are still hiring.  So, does the CF need nurses or not?  It would be so terrible if you spent your whole entire regular military career never having been deployed once.   :'(  Has this ever happened?
> 
> 3) How do you advance through the ranks as a NO?  And realistically speaking, can a nurse reach major or beyond?



 Honestly tahts what im doing now.... i want to know as well....


----------



## MJP

Miss J said:
			
		

> Honestly tahts what im doing now.... i want to know as well....



Did you even read the post before yours?


----------



## Jacqueline

yip sorry...


----------



## curious george

Thank you, Medcorps, for your helpful answer.  

1) Please clarify the meaning of "MOSID" and "operationally functional point."   
2) Also, if you are in the regular force I understand that you are paid a monthly salary.  When you deploy they stop your salary? (Reference to "keen and volunteer") I thought you still get paid AND you don't pay tax on that income. 
3) Please also clarify, "Captain is the working rank for NOs".  What does that mean?  As a 2nd Lt or Lt you're not working?
4) Where do most wounded soldiers get treatment when they arrive back in Canada if there are no base hospitals?  (Is that related to budget cuts?)  Where do NOs get their first posts after they finish the BMOQ and BNO training?  When you mentioned "coast to coast" did you mean any civilian hospital of my choosing?  How will I attend inservices if I live in another part of the country?

Thank you for taking time to respond to my initial questions.


----------



## MedCorps

Curious George... sorry about that.  It is easy to use military speak when you use it all day. 

1) MOSID - Military Occupational Specification Identification (I think).  This is the occupation in simple terms.  Each of the countless occupations in the CF has a MOSID.  So 00182 is Pilot and 00195 is Nursing Officer.  Although the numbers are attached to it, in common speak when someone (other than a clerk or an MP) asked for your MOSID they really are looking for your classification name.  This has pretty much replaced the older term of MOC.   

Operationally functional point (OFP) is the point where you are able to be employed within the trade specifications. For Nursing Officers it is the attainment of the Nursing Officer Basic Officer Qualification.  In order to be awarded this qualification you must complete:

1) the Basic Military Officer Qualification, 
2) the Basic Nursing Officer Course (BNOC), 
3) the Nursing Officer Clinical Phase Training (CPT), 
4) the Basic Field Health Services Course (BFHSC), 
5) completion of an accredited undergraduate degree program in nursing, and 
6) registration with a provincial nursing college (for instance the College of Nurses of Ontario) 

At this point you are deemed OFP and ready for full employment within the Nursing Officer MOSID. 

2) In the Regular Force you are indeed paid a monthly salary.  When you deploy this salary continues to be paid and you may be given extra allotments and allowances to "compensate" you for the hazard, risk, austerity, etc, etc that you are being exposed to.  If you are in a particularly hazardous and risky place your salary might be also tax free during this period.  

I used the terms keen and volunteer to denote someone who really, really, wants to deploy and identifies this to their supervisor and the professional technical network (in nursing this is your senior nursing officer (or) local practice leader, specialty practice leader, and career manager).  Keen and volunteering is the opposite to lazy and hiding, which sadly also happens sometimes. 

3) Working rank denotes the rank where the majority of the MOSID is employed.  In this case the Canadian Forces Health Service has about 30 Lt's at any time and 160 Captains.  Hence, most of the Nursing Officers are working at the rank of Captain. We rarely have 2Lt Nursing Officers in the Regular Force (generally when something has gone wrong or via administrative error) and upon completing BMOQ and your degree you are  promoted to the rank of  Lt. During your period of being an Lt (generally three years) you do the three courses above (BNOC, CPT, BFHSC).  This is the period where you learn the craft of military nursing and leadership.  You are working as a Nursing Officer, but seen as a Junior Nursing Officer by your superiors and subordinates. (do not think however as a Lt NO that you will not be put into crazy situations where you will be expected to rise to the occasions). 

4) When you get back to Canada as a wounded soldier you enter the civilian health care system with initial liaison (and payment) to the Canadian Forces Health Service.  Is that related to budget cut... I do not know.  It is the policy of the day.   

After BMOQ they try and get you to a location where you can do CPT.  CPT involves a period of eight to twelve months working in a civilian hospital under mentorship and evaluation.  This is to equalize the university clinical training and experience for all NO's joining and to ensure that they all have been exposed to the required types and volumes of patients (and technical skills).  For this to occur we need a location with an agreement with the civilian hospital and a place that will expose you to the volume and types of patients we want you exposed.  Most NO's as a first posting thus are doing it in a big city with a big civilian hospital network to work in (Ottawa, Halifax, Valcartier, Vancouver, Edmonton).  There are some exceptions to this... but this is the target. In your next posting then you can be off somewhere else such as to a smaller Canadian Forces Health Services Centre (these are pretty much on every base in Canada and are known informally as base medical clinics), the Training Centre in Borden, a field unit (1 Canadian Field Hospital, 1/2/5 Field Ambulance), the air evacuation flight, a junior staff officer job, etc, etc.  You can make a suggestion as to where you will like to go for your first posting for CPT, but in the end the needs of the CF comes first.  This will be a theme throughout your career and you should be prepared for it. 

I hope that is of some help. 

MC


----------



## McG

MedCorps said:
			
		

> MOSID - Military Occupational Specification Identification (I think).  This is the occupation in simple terms.


Yes, but ...

"MOS" is the occupation.  "MOSID" is the numeric code that identifies the occupation.
This pedantic difference only seems to matter when completing forms.  If a form asks for MOS and you enter a number, you have answered wrong.

Of course, I am sure all offenders will still sleep soundly at night (or at the very least this should not be the cause of anyone lying awake).


----------



## curious george

Medcorps,  you did a splendid job of explaining things in layman's terms.  Thank you.  A few more follow-up questions:

1)  Before I deploy then, I must have achieved all 6 steps to be functionally operational.  The earliest deployment would be in 3 years?
2) During the CPT phase, who is my mentor and evaluator?  Will I be able to work along side an experienced nurse initially?
3) How does a NO become an air evacuation flight nurse? What improves her chances? Does she need to take an ER course?


----------



## curious george

4) Do you have any stats on NO casualties or deaths from Afghanistan since 2003 (or whenever Canada got involved)?  What about med tech casualties or deaths?


----------



## curious george

5) Does the "enemy" typically know where the field hospitals and established coalition hospitals are?  If they know, do they try to bomb them to further devastate coalition forces? (Not sure if you can answer this one).


----------



## medicineman

(3)  When  you're trained and when there are courses available AND someone figures you're likely to go to an AE position or are deserving of the course.

(4)  No nurses as casualties that I know of...medics on the other hand, 7 off the top of my head.

(5)  Yes and it's up to the bad guys concerned...we'll leave it at that.

MM


----------



## curious george

My thoughts to those 7 medics who saved others at the cost of their own health and life.

What protection/plan is in place to protect the patients in the hospitals and the staff who work there?  Surely they can't be left completely unable to defend themselves!  eg. Do they carry rifles?  Are they allowed to shoot? Is there a bomb shelter?


----------



## MedCorps

1.  Yes, you need to have all six steps completed and be deemed OFP.  People have gotten waivers but it is rare (especially if you are a general duty nursing officer) and not a good idea at all. This process takes time and two to three years is a good yardstick if you are sorted out. 

2. You will have a military nursing officer who will program your experience and work with you to ensure that you meet the required competencies. You will be paired with an experienced civilian RN who works with you day-to-day.  They will write evaluation on you to the military CPT Officer who coordinates the program.  They will then collate the evaluations, plus add any interactions that they have had with you into the mix and write the final evaluation. 

3. Once you are OFP and generally completed one posting cycle as a NO you can apply for a position at the Air Evacuation Flight in Trenton. Once you are identified as someone with interest / suitable you will attempt to complete the air medical, aeromedical training program in Winnipeg and then the seven (?) week Aeromedical Evacuation  (AME) Course.  Once you have your AME wings you are then eligible for posting to the flight and if there is a position then you can be posted into it.  You can be posted to the Flight as a General Duty Nursing Officer (GDNO) in fact most of the positions are GDNO positions. 

4. We do not discuss casualty numbers in a public forum.  There have been no Nursing Officer deaths in Afghanistan, but quite a few (double digits) in other wars.  We have had Med Techs and a HCA be killed in theatre / have death related to service.  

See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/list.html

We also do not discuss the specifics of force protection measures in a public forum for obvious reasons.  There is a plan, it is a good plan, and your chances at survival will be maximized by the use of this plan. 

MC


----------



## NursyNurse

Fantastic information, and I read it all with great interest.

Thank you for sharing !


----------



## curious george

Medcorps,  thank you once again for all your patience in answering my questions.  I'm sure your thorough explanations are helping other people as well.

I fully respect your need to keep some secrets as they might jeorpordize lives.  Sorry, I don't know all the rules yet.


----------



## bear1995

Would someone be at an advantage/disadvantage if they were male going into this profession? Based on the experiences of my sisters (who are all civi-nurses) there are few male nurses. They said if anything in the civi world men have an advantage, would this make any difference withing the CF?


----------



## PMedMoe

bear1995 said:
			
		

> Would someone be at an advantage/disadvantage if they were male going into this profession? Based on the experiences of my sisters (who are all civi-nurses) there are few male nurses. They said if anything in the civi world men have an advantage, would this make any difference withing the CF?



No.


----------



## medicineman

I'd have to say the "sisterhood" still rules the roost in the CF when it comes to nursing...even over the male nursing sisters ;D

MM


----------



## Gunner98

It should be noted that the Senior Nursing Officer in a CF uniform today is a male.


----------



## medicineman

Shhh...don't need to tell them that  ;D.

As a small aside, when my ex-CO was my Senior Nursing Officer in Kingston, I changed the name plate on his office to read " N.S. C.L., Matron"  from "Capt C. L., Senior Nursing Officer"...when he eventually noticed, he was happy with leaving it there.  The HWO wasn't.

MM


----------



## bear1995

at first i was not interested in joining the military for medical-related trades at all due to the fact i am a very competitive, push myself to the limit, adrenaline-seeking guy. i was thinking for the three trades i put down shoudl be along the lines of armour officer, infantry officer, and artillery officer; however, my parents helped me realize there is more job security in nursing right now because if it doesn't work out with the military (which i hope it does!) then i should be able to find a job as a civilian very easy. so i am hoping for my three trades to put down nursing officer, and the other two are undecided- perhaps pharmacist officer?

p.s: i am only 16 but have literally spent hours on this site as i wish to go through ROTP


----------



## George Wallace

bear1995 said:
			
		

> at first i was not interested in joining the military for medical-related trades at all due to the fact i am a very competitive, push myself to the limit, adrenaline-seeking guy. i was thinking for the three trades i put down shoudl be along the lines of armour officer, infantry officer, and artillery officer; however, my parents helped me realize there is more job security in nursing right now because if it doesn't work out with the military (which i hope it does!) then i should be able to find a job as a civilian very easy. so i am hoping for my three trades to put down nursing officer, and the other two are undecided- perhaps pharmacist officer?
> 
> p.s: i am only 16 but have literally spent hours on this site as i wish to go through ROTP



Nursing a secure trade to learn?  Thousands of Nurses have been laid off in many of Canada's Provinces.  Doesn't seem such a "secure" plan as you perceived, unless you plan on moving to the US.  I am sure Pharmacist would be a good option, as there are Drug Stores popping up almost on every corner.

You are 16, so you have lots of time to research and make an informed decision and also benefit from any changes in employment opportunities.


----------



## medicineman

You're not going to get as much adrenaline as you think in nursing - the day to day stuff is pretty mundane actually (it's not all saving lives all day every day) and as a nursing officer, once your consolidation is done, well you could spend alot of time pushing paper.  Incidentally, ditto for those other things you were interested in too - it's not all fun and games all the time, there's alot of administration as well depending on your particular lot in life as far as postings go.

Like GW said, you've got time to think about it and research things.

MM


----------



## curious george

I've got two questions:

After  consolidation, how many months per year do you go back to acute care setting to maintain those skills?

Is there a Trauma Care Course and Burn Course somewhere along the way during the nursing training/career?  Or should it be something I do on my own time?


----------



## nursesp

Don't do it. If you are already a trained RN, I suggest you DO NOT join the CF. I did it I joined, did boot camp but got screwed over while almost completing the boot camp program. I got injured, and believe you me, it sucks, and they treat you like garbage while in St. Jean. I'm a strong physically fit person, but am no longer, I am slowly recovering, and I likely sustained permanent injuries. 

I'd say, don't do it, find some other avenue in civi world nursing that you can pursue which interests you.


----------



## lethalLemon

nursesp said:
			
		

> Don't do it. If you are already a trained RN, I suggest you DO NOT join the CF. I did it I joined, did boot camp but got screwed over while almost completing the boot camp program. I got injured, and believe you me, it sucks, and they treat you like garbage while in St. Jean. I'm a strong physically fit person, but am no longer, I am slowly recovering, and I likely sustained permanent injuries.
> 
> I'd say, don't do it, find some other avenue in civi world nursing that you can pursue which interests you.



So why then, come here and discourage others who are interested in an exciting, different every day career that goes beyond cleaning some elderly man's poop? From what I've heard, a CF Nursing Officer does far more medical work than a civilian nurse and has the opportunity to deploy to (potentially) almost any country in the world that the CF sets foot in - whether it's for Humanitarian Aid, or Combat operations.

"...treat you like garbage while in St. Jean..."
Sounds like someone couldn't look past the small petty things and take in the real training that was offered. If you pay attention, the staff tell you how to succeed and how NOT to get injured. The purpose of BMQ is to break you out of your old, lacking-discipline, habit-forming self and build you up into a disciplined, alert, keen, nimble soldier/sailor/airman-airwoman. It's all about learning how to build attention to detail and to do right the first time. Everyone makes mistakes, but they rather you make the mistakes on BMQ than where it counts - like on the battlefield where lives are on the line.

Sorry you had a disappointing less than 14 weeks in the CF, but don't go ruining it for people who want to be part of something bigger than themselves, to protect the people of Canada and their interests who can't do it themselves. To selflessly serve your nation is something truly noble. How many years has the CF gone out and saved people from Red River floods, avalanches, or blizzards in Ontario (and much more)? Plenty. The men and women of the CF don't even know these people and they are going out of their way to help restore their lives. I shouldn't say "going out of their way" it's their job - because they want to.

Sorry you can't handle being more than just a pay cheque collecting, patient ignoring, civilian RN.


----------



## MedCorps

curious george said:
			
		

> I've got two questions:
> 
> After  consolidation, how many months per year do you go back to acute care setting to maintain those skills?
> 
> Is there a Trauma Care Course and Burn Course somewhere along the way during the nursing training/career?  Or should it be something I do on my own time?



Every Nursing Officer is required to pass the Emergency Nursing Association (ENA) Trauma Nursing Core Course (TNCC) while on the Basic Nursing Officer Course as a Lieutenant. You will then be required to re-certify in TNCC as it expires for the rest of you career as a Nursing Officer unless you become a Mental Health Nursing Officer.  There are also opportunities to become an TNCC Instructor and TNCC Course Director as you progress in rank and experience, have the aptitude, and there are positions / requirement.  You will also see nursing officers do the Advanced Trauma Life Support (ATLS) course as an auditor and/or the ENA Emergency Nursing Pediatrics Course.  I have also seen a few nursing offers now take the ENA Course in Advanced Trauma Nursing  II (CATN-II) course. Finally, some Nursing Officers will take the International Basic Trauma Life Support Course (IBLS) , or the Prehospital Trauma Life Support Course (PHTLS).  Both of these courses are taught on the Combat Casualty Care Course, down in Texas, which we send a few nursing officers on each year.  

There is some basic burn training during the Basic Nursing Officer Course.  I have seen Nursing Officers do the American Burn Association, Advanced Burn Life Support Course.  The problem is that you do not see it run in Canada very often and we have had to wait for someone to teach it here, or send them down to the US. I have also seen a number of nurses recently do a Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program (MSCP) rotation at the Sunnybrook Burn Centre (The Ross Tilley Burn Centre).  This has been a tremendous opportunity, and everyone that I have spoken with who has done it has said great things about this MCSP rotation.  

The MSCP is how you maintain your clinical skills.  To be honest it is not the best functioning of programs.  It prescribes a certain number of hours per year that you are "required" to be back in hospital maintaining your clinical skill set.  It is under review for content.  Most General Duty Nursing Officer seem to be getting four to five weeks a year in an area where it can do the most good for them, based on identified requirement.  This is often in Emergency or on a Med/Surg Ward. Some are getting more (ones in field units), some are getting less (ones in busy base medical clinics) . The problem is that they have to leave their full-time job on base (seeing patients in a base medical clinic,  teaching at the school, managing, etc) and go an MSCP which an prove to be problematic, given workload, as there is nobody left behind then to do the required tasks.  

With Afghanistan, we have always had Nursing Officers in the pre-deployment / deployment cycle and hence why *I think* the MSCP has fallen off the rails somewhat.  The small buffer we had built into the system for MSCP, was consumed by this deployment. I suspect it will get better in the future, assuming an decrease in tempo and there is some re-organization afoot to have more Nursing Officers working in hospital full time / close to full time in a variety of rotations for a three year posting ("high readiness" nursing officers).  

I hope that helps. If you have any other questions please ask. 

Do not listen to any non-hacker who can not make it past basic training. They may have been a poor recruiting selection, or just bitter from bad luck. 

MC


----------



## mariomike

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Sorry you can't handle being more than just a pay cheque collecting, patient ignoring, civilian RN.



Rhetoric aside, 2011 was not a bad year for some pay cheque collecting, patient ignoring, civilian RN's :
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2012/hospit12.pdf


----------



## aesop081

nursesp said:
			
		

> Don't do it.



So, you are saying to people "don't join the CF" because *YOU* got hurt ?

I've seen plenty of people get hurt during basic and go one to good careers and i have seen plenty of people finish basic training without getting hurt.

Would you say to someone "i recommend you do not drive a car because i had an accident once and dealing with the insurance company was painful" ?


----------



## nursesp

I'm simply sharing my opinion. This forum is about reading opinions, and I have the right to share mine. 

It is not comparable to driving a car, though I see your point that anything in life one does can mean injury or death. 

If anyone wants to know more about my experience nursing/sustaining an injury during basic training please feel free to message me. 

FYI I was at St. Jean for 15 weeks.


----------



## aesop081

nursesp said:
			
		

> and I have the right to share mine.



...and i have the right to give my opinion of your opinion. 

My point is that what happened to *YOU*, happened to *YOU* and is not a reason for someone else to join as a NO. 



> FYI I was at St. Jean for 15 weeks.



I've been in the CF for almost 20 years. What's your point ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

nursesp said:
			
		

> I'm simply sharing my opinion. This forum is about reading opinions, and I have the right to share mine.
> 
> It is not comparable to driving a car, though I see your point that anything in life one does can mean injury or death.
> 
> If anyone wants to know more about my experience nursing/sustaining an injury during basic training please feel free to message me.
> 
> FYI I was at St. Jean for 15 weeks.



Just curious, were you by any chance a DEO NO and went thru the Mega fall '06 timeframe?


----------



## Journeyman

nursesp said:
			
		

> This forum is about reading opinions, and I have the right to share mine.


I believe you were looking for www.Self-centredWhiners.com   :nod:


----------



## nursesp

You're right. This is the first time I've ever written anything negative online, or shared an opinion advising others what to do. To each their own, people can make their own choices for themselves. If someone wants to join, then by all means they really should. That's it, that's all I have to share for now. If anyone wants to know more about my time I'll gladly tell them. 

Also, wiping an old man's butt is not all that nurses do. I take a lot of pride in my profession. And it can take me down many avenues. I don't mind helping the old folks, cause I know that I am doing a good job and helping those who feel helpless without me. 

Have a great Easter weekend


----------



## curious george

I'm super excited to learn about trauma and emergency nursing.  I can't wait to soak up all the classroom and practical experiences  - I hope I can get the best clinical experiences where I can put it all into practice.  How can I go to Sunnybrook?  

For my clinical phase training, is it better to work on a med/surg unit, or on a trauma unit?  Do you have to be a critical care nurse to work on a trauma unit?  If I get in, I was thinking of putting "no preference" for my clinical phase training in the hopes that they'll know best for me.

My only real concern is, given that MSCP is so short, will I be competent enough to function in a real "world" situation such as Afghanistan?

And finally, I know the first comment was negative, but that hasn't dampened my passion.  It's really weird.


----------



## lethalLemon

mariomike said:
			
		

> Rhetoric aside, 2011 was not a bad year for some pay cheque collecting, patient ignoring, civilian RN's :
> http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2012/hospit12.pdf



Oh I know, I worked in Surrey Memorial Hospital for a few years, many nurses easily cleared $200k with minimal overtime. It's crazy.


----------



## lethalLemon

Disregard.


----------



## Good2Golf

Let's stay on topic folks.  Personal digs don't add to the topic.


Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Armymedic

curious george said:
			
		

> My only real concern is, given that MSCP is so short, will I be competent enough to function in a real "world" situation such as Afghanistan?



Yours, and every other medical professional that doesn't spend the majority of thier time dealing with emergency situations. 

History has proven simulation tng and scenario practice, with the newly developed trauma tng program has allowed people to be up to the task when it comes up.


----------



## MedCorps

curious george said:
			
		

> For my clinical phase training, is it better to work on a med/surg unit, or on a trauma unit?  Do you have to be a critical care nurse to work on a trauma unit?  If I get in, I was thinking of putting "no preference" for my clinical phase training in the hopes that they'll know best for me.



The clinical phase training is a balanced program.  You will get a taste of both emergency and med/surg.  All education is good education. If you need some ideas of where to focus your clinical training shoot me a PM.  

MC


----------



## dstevens

Hello Everyone, 

I'm seriously considering DEO entry this summer I'm writing the CRNE in just over a month from now. My main concern with DEO RN in the CF is that really you lose the whole acute care setting. I have absolutely no desire to work in a clinic or outpatient services. My reason for considering the CF for employment is I feel I will enjoy not only the military lifestyle but I love trauma/critical care and the military can allow me to work and thrive in this specialty area. 

I've talked to a Major at the local Reserve Field Ambulance but he didn't really explain the day-to-day aspect mainly because it was in the Reserve and I'm interested in RegF. He loved to tell me about all his deployments and his responsibilities as a major  in the reserves( That rank is a far cry from the Lt. I will enter at after my training so its kinda useless info). Thus I'm familiar that to become a Resuscitation  NO, requires the course and that typically takes 3-5 years of time served to be considered for the course. 

I would like to ask what the normal day-to-day life as a NO at the rank of Lt. and also what NO at the rank of  Captain is like, further more how often can I expect to actually work with acute patients and the opportunity to deploy ( not necessarily to combat theatres but also to say Africa, Haiti, UN sanction missions etc). 

It has been recommend time and time again that NO moonlight at the local hospital for skills maintenance, I was wondering if someone could provide personal experience on the matter. 

I've thought about entering the Reserves, however it would take at least 2 years and a lot of time off to receive this training. Considering I'm would be new to the profession it would not be feasible to expect to receive 3-4 months of during the summer when I don't even have my 90 days in. 

Thanks, 

dstevens.


----------



## MedCorps

Day to day life as a NO is dependent on where you are posted. Posting are currently on a 3-5 year cycle it seems. It is common in one posting to do 2 different jobs while in the same posting, especially if it is a 4 or 5 year posting. 

There are five main employment areas for General Duty Nursing Officers: 

1) Clinics, mostly as Primary Care Nurses in the Care Delivery Units (CDU) or as the Operations and Training Officer in the clinics, 
2) Staff positions, largely administrative in the headquarters (Ottawa, Edmonton, Montreal), 
3) Teaching, mostly at the Training Centre in Borden, 
4) Field units, generally as a Platoon Commander, or Clinical Training Officer, 
5) Embedded in civilian hospitals, this is a new an evolving concept for "high readiness" nursing officers. 

This is not all inclusive but I would say 95% of the NO's fit into one of this groups. 

As a Lt, you are mostly just trying to get qualified.  Basic Nursing Officer Course, Clinical Phase Training, and Basic Field Health Services Course.  You will also be in your first posting just getting your feet wet. Most Lt's work in clinics as PCNs or in field units. Some may get embedded as part of this new program, but this waits to be seen. Most Lt's work on their Officer Professional Military Eduction (OPME) courses as well, chipping away at them course after course.  

As a Capt, you will take on more responsibilities withing the five areas above.  Lead NCMs and other officers.  Experience + Competency = Responsibility. You will also have the opportunity to specialize in critical care, OR, mental health or flight. You can also stay a General Duty Nursing Officer. The specialties are  more clinically focused, for generally at least a five year stint after the apx. one year qualification period. 

Unless you are employed in a CDU or in a embedded civilian hospital position, you are largely looking at only having acute care exposure during time attached to a civilian hospital under the Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program.  Most GDNOs are getting between 4-5 weeks a year.  Some less, some more, situation and motivation dependent.   

Deployments are dependent on the tempo of the day... some decades we are busy as stink, some are slow as sin.  In Bosnia / Afghanistan we have deployed many NO's... a number doing multiple tours. We are still deploying NO's (albeit more senior ones) to Afghanistan currently. Who knows what the future holds, but the world seems to be a crazy place. 

Some NO's moonlight in local hospitals after they are done clinical phase training.  Keeps then more current, especially when MCSP does not seem to work for whatever reason. This is especially important when you are new as a RN and trying to consolidate skills.  Most NO's I know who moonlight do about 2 x 12 hour shifts per month, generally on the weekends.  Some do considerably more (generally the ones that want the cash and are in a job that allows them nights and weekends off, one I know of does 90-100 hours of moonlighting a month, but they are special) and some do less.  Most (if not all) Commanding Officers and senior nurses support the concept of moonlighting as long as it does not get in the way of your regular duties. 

I hope that helps, 

MC


----------



## curious george

What is a "high readiness" nursing officer?

OPME - are these the various trauma courses (beyond those in BNOC) lieutenant NOs take?

Can you extend your CPT to more than the usual year to get in as many hours as possible?


----------



## aesop081

curious george said:
			
		

> OPME - are these the various trauma courses (beyond those in BNOC) lieutenant NOs take?



No, they are professional development courses taken by all CF officers.


----------



## MedCorps

curious george said:
			
		

> What is a "high readiness" nursing officer?
> 
> OPME - are these the various trauma courses (beyond those in BNOC) lieutenant NOs take?
> 
> Can you extend your CPT to more than the usual year to get in as many hours as possible?



A high readiness NO is one who is posted to A) a high readiness list or B) posted to a high readiness detachment of 1 Canadian Field Hospital, but ideally both at the same time. This is a new concept that is unfolding starting the posting season and will grow from this point forward. 

These NOs will be working in civilian hospitals full time on various rotations in order to keep their skills sharp. They will also do all of the army stuff in order to keep them deployable on short notice, some on very short notice.  Some of these NO's will be on a high readiness list in support of potential operations while others will deploy while in these detachment on standing tours.   Estimated time in these detachments is 3-4 years (one posting cycle).  Four detachments are being set up starting this posting season co-located with major Canadian hospitals.

It is possible to extend CPT out of 13 months if there is not a service requirement to immediately post you or move you from the training list, to the trained effective strength list.  If you are required for service requirements and you are meeting your competency goals then CPT can be as short at 8 months. 

OPME = Officer Professional Military Education.  These are courses all officers are supposed to do (regardless of MOS) while a junior officer.  It provides education in support of the Officer General Specification, a list of things all officers are supposed to know / be able to do.  http://www.opme.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp

MC


----------



## curious george

Great stuff.  Very interesting.


----------



## inandout604

Presently I am 3 semesters and 12 credits away applying to the revised Douglas College BScN program. I plan on making an ROTP application in the near future.

I have gone through this thread and found many answers to questions that I have not even considered asking in determining my career path with the CF. While monetary compensation is a valid consideration, I place it on an equal plane as the life and leadership skills derived from being in the CF.

The questions I ask related to an NO being in the Canadian/B.C. nurses union.

1. Is an NO part of the Canadian Nurse's union?

2. If yes to question 1, how does CF service equate to hours towards pay scale tiers/seniority in the nurses union in the civilian world? 

3. Does an NO pay Canadian nursing union dues?

4. What is the CF's policy towards bereavement leave? My Father is in his mid 70's and still kicks butt daily, though I worry.

5. Many in this thread have begrudged that paper pushing is a main stay of the NO's duties. What does the NO's administrative duties entail?


Thank you in advance to those who answered these questions


----------



## Cansky

No member is the CF belong to any union as part of the CF employment.  Nor do any one in CF pay union dues. Your pay is according to the CF general officer pay scale.

In regards to compassionate leave from my personal experience with the death of my father and illness of my child , it's better than anywhere else.  For example with my father I received 2 weeks paid compassionate leave and I believe they pay for the flight home.  With my daughter's accident I received a month paid compassionate leave while she was in hospital. 

As for you last question yes a number of nursing positions are more administrative but I'll let the nurses comment more on that as I AMA physician assistant.

Hope that helps


----------



## inandout604

Thank you that clears up a lot. Though I am still wondering does any service hours from being an NO transfer to civilian nursing occupation.

e.g.: 1000 hrs NO service = 1000 hrs civilian nursing seniority. 

Or does release from the CF mean that an NO will have to start a civilian occupation on the bottom of the seniority list.


----------



## MedCorps

CF NO's have been afforded seniority by civilian organizations based on their time nursing as a NO. The way it is calculated seems to be variable from organization to organization but is generally fair and if anything provides benefit to the NO. 

I have never seen a CF NO who has separated from the CF start at the bottom of the pay scale of their new organization. 

In response to your other questions: 

As mentioned NOs are not part of any union but do have to hold registration as a nursing in the civilian regulatory body in at least on province.  The CF pays for these registration fees.   

Look at the pay scales on the CF website.  First 3 years Lt.  Pretty much automatically promoted to Capt, lots of room for growth as a Captain (11 pay incentives) with a top out of 98k or so.  Competitive promotion to Major.  This compares favorably to the civilian world, especially as a mid-range Captain and does not include the impressive compensation package (medical, dental, education, holidays, pension, etc).   

4. What is the CF's policy towards bereavement leave? My Father is in his mid 70's and still kicks butt daily, though I worry.

We have paid compassionate leave that can be granted at the discretion of the Commanding Officer. It is granted on the principle that the requirements of the service are met before being granted.  Service before self is a theme you will see. 

5. Many in this thread have begrudged that paper pushing is a main stay of the NO's duties. What does the NO's administrative duties entail?

Administration is one of the four key areas of work for a Nursing Officer.  You are going to get a healthy dose of it in your career, especially if you want to progress in rank and responsibility / be promoted. 

MC


----------



## inandout604

Thank you MedCorps, that clarified all my queries. 

Finally I anticipate that my application to the BScN program will be submitted by the end of Summer 2013. Is it too soon now to poke my head in to the CFRC and begin the ROTC application?


----------



## MedCorps

I would pop into the CFRC soonest.  They will let you know when you should be commencing an application.  Due to the fact that you are so far into your BScN they may want you to wait and have graduated + passed your RN in so that you can apply for a DEO position. 

Drop by and they can tell you.  Be advised it is highly competitive for DEO spots right now so do the best to ensure you have an A1 application. 

MC


----------



## Leo791989

Hello,

How does NO(reserve) work? I am just curious since my civie job is rotational shifts. Would I still be expected to take time off from my civie job to complete BMOQ etc or how does it work?
Thank you


----------



## MedCorps

You would still need to reach the operational functional point and complete your basic officer qualification training.  Although Reserve Force training is broken down into smaller more digestible chunks (in terms of time away from work) it is still very possible you will have to make some deals with your employer to go do training. 

Many unionized employers have conditions in the collective agreements that allow this.  Other employers are often good sports when approached with notice and explained what you will be doing and how this professional development will serve them well in the end. 

Good luck, 

MC


----------



## babycake21

Hi everyone

I am doing my BScN in nursing in quebec, and have applied to the military. I am waiting for my testing dates. I know that assuming all goes well, when my bachelors is complete training will take place in s-jean, followed by other training, inital posting etc.. However, i am curious what it means for someone with a nursing license from quebec, as it is not the same as in other provinces.. Will this limit the places you can work with the CF? i hope not...


----------



## MedCorps

You only require license / registration in one province. You technically practice under the authority of the Surgeon General, so you do not need any license at all to work on CF members, but for a number of reasons it has been put into policy that every NO will have a license in at least one province.

One of the reasons for this is portability for maintenance of your clinical skills.  You will end up spending sometime working in civilian hospitals to maintain your clinical skills.  In order to do this you will need a license in the province where you are going to be working.  This is normally done by transferring the license from whatever province you gained it in, to the province where you want to do maintenance of clinical skills training in a civilian hospital. 

All the provinces seem to be good about honouring each others license / registration except for Quebec (surprise surprise).  If you hold a Quebec license and need to say transfer it to Alberta it should not be a problem.  Have an Alberta license and want to transfer it to Quebec is it is a nightmare I am told (especially if you do not speak French, even if you want to work / train in a English hospital). 

Good luck with your application.  

MC


----------



## Snakedoc

Hmm.. Does this end up being a consideration for NO's being posted to Quebec then?  I would think that if they can't get their Quebec license this would become an issue for NO's maintaining their clinical skills?


----------



## MedCorps

I think that they are trying to sort something out, but they are not their yet.  

I also know an English NO who works in Valcariter but comes back to Ontario (where he holds registration) to do maintenance of clinical skills.  

That is all I know, the CM would be the person to ask. 

MC


----------



## daindophia

Hello everyone,

I'm currently a NCdt, just trying to figure out what to expect in terms of recent changes for NOs and my career progression... I learned about CPT (Clinical Phase Training) for the first time on this thread, and I've recently heard that all new Lt NOs freshly graduated (in cases of ROTP, not DEU) will be filtered through the "high readiness units", so working full time in civilian hospitals. So my questions are:

1. Will new Lts need to complete CPT and then be posted to high readiness units as separate postings, or will CPT be included as a part of the time he/she is posted to a high readiness unit??

2. Also, when are BNOC and Basic field course held every year??

3. What is the normal progression for courses? BMOQ --> BNOC --> Basic Field --> CPT --> first posting??


Thanks so much, and I apologize in advance if there are any duplicating questions from before. Seems like most of the discussion happened over a year ago and I'm just looking for the most current advice.


----------



## MedCorps

A posting to a high readiness detachment (HRD), which are detachments of 1 Canadian Field Hospita,l are just that a posting.  It is not connected to CPT.  It is possible (although unlikely) that a Nursing Officer could do their whole career without ever being posting to a HRD.  You should expect at least one HRD posting in your career, but it might not come as soon as you are done CPT.  CPT and a posting to a HRD serve different functions for the Health Service.   

BNOC and Basic Field Health Services Course are held twice a year at the CFHSTC in Borden.  PM me for dates.  You should be aware that the Field Course is changing to a new course called the Health Services Operational and Staff Officer Course, which is about the same length.  Not sure we will be running the first serial.  

The normal progression according too the books is BMOQ, CPT, Basic Field, BNOC, (which means that you are done the Basic Training List requirements) and then your first posting.  Reality does not follow the books and you need BMOQ before everything else and CPT before BNOC.  You might even get posted before you come off the Basic Training List and have all of these things done... if they have a spot that needs to be filled. In this case you are still on the Basic Training List, just the the geographical location where you are going to be posted when you hit operationally functional point and come off the BTL.   

MC


----------



## Khaalid

I'm currently in grade 11, which courses do I need to get into the ROTP after high school to be a nursing officer?
What marks do i need?
And I'm taking FSL 9 year, will this help in any way? 
thank you for reading


----------



## PMedMoe

Khaalid said:
			
		

> I'm currently in grade 11, which courses do I need to get into the ROTP after high school to be a nursing officer?
> What marks do i need?
> And I'm taking FSL 9 year, will this help in any way?
> thank you for reading



Checked at forces.ca and here's what they have:



> Regular Officer Training Plan
> 
> Because this position requires a university degree, the Canadian Forces will pay successful recruits to complete a Bachelor of Nursing degree program at a Canadian university.



Since Nursing is not offered at RMC, _my_ guess is you should check into the prerequisites of the degree at the universities you plan on applying to.



You're welcome.....


----------



## Khaalid

Thank you, because when the recruiter came to my school; she said i would have to do the science program. This included a lot of courses i didn't need for nursing so i was confused.  Are there any nursing officers here who can tell me for sure?


----------



## MedCorps

You need to get into a civilian, accredited, baccalaureate program... what you need to get into said program is up to the university where you are applying and not up to the Canadian Forces. 

I would search the various Canadian accredited universities that have well respected nursing programs (U of Toronto, McGill, Queens, Windsor, Dalhousie, MUN, Western, University of Alberta, UBC come to mind but you can see the list here: http://www.casn.ca/en/54/item/1) and see what you need to get into these programs and what these programs entail.  I would also consider speaking to your high school guidance department as they will know some of the ins and outs of these programs. 

Once you get into a civilian, accredited, baccalaureate program then you can worry about competing to be selected in the ROTP as a Nursing Officer.


----------



## Khaalid

what if i don't get into the ROTP, can i apply after i graduate to be a nurse officer? And how man spots are usually available per year in the ROTP?


----------



## MedCorps

If you do not get into ROTP then you can apply as a Direct Entry Officer (DEO) once you graduate from an accredited university with an undergraduate degree in nursing and having attained your RN license in one province. 

The number they take for ROTP varies from year-to-year.  I would say between 6-12 but the CFRC will have the latest numbers.  

It is important to remember the selection criteria is quite different for the ROTP versus DEO.  In the ROTP the CFRC is generally looking for academically bright high school students who will do well at university and thrive in the academic environment, have leadership potential / experience, as well as all of the other qualities they look for in officer candidates.  For DEO they are looking for someone who has the correct credentials (degree, license, etc, etc), but also, ideally, who has training and experience relevant to the occupation, as well as leadership potential / experience, as well as all of the other qualities they look for in officer candidates.

For example (although slightly, but not totally, exaggerated):    

ROTP is competitive because you are fighting against that nerd in high school who has a 98% average, got into 3 nursing programs unconditionally in the first round, is the high school president and captain of the field hockey team.

DEO is competitive because you are fighting against that person who graduated near the top of their class in university, was the nursing society president while in school,  is now working in a busy ER patching people up, has multiple short medical courses (ACLS, TNCC, ITLS, ABLS, etc), volunteers with the girl guides on Thursday nights, and runs marathons in there spare time. 

Applying is free, you will never know unless you take the plunge.  

MC


----------



## Khaalid

Well, I'm in grade 11 right now, second semester. When should I apply, i really want a spot in the ROTP. And, how many years do I need to serve after I'm done the schooling?


----------



## MedCorps

Apply once as soon as you have mailed the application(s) off to an accredited, undergraduate nursing program and are likely based on their admissions requirements to gain admittance. 

This will allow time for all the all the CFRC stuff (medical, security screening, CFAT, interviews, selection boards, etc, etc, etc) to occur and God willing tee up once you have a letter of unconditional acceptance to a program for an enrollment in June before your 1st year of university.  Be prepared for hold ups in the recruiting process and to pay for your first year of university on your own dime while the CFRC is processing your file.  In which case you will get accepted at the end of your 1st year and the CF will enroll you in your first summer off (and maybe even send you to basic) and the pay for years 2-3-4.   

You owe, as obligatory service, the CF 2 months of service for every month of school they pay for as part of the ROTP, to a maximum of five years. Terms of Service may be longer.  Speak to the CFRC for details.  

MC


----------



## albertan82

I recently applied for reg force NO. I am a relatively new RN with 2 yrs experience in emerg.  I spent 6 yrs in the reserves (NCM) as well.  Just wondering if anyone knows when the next BOTC is being run? or how many NO are being accepted this year? and how competitive is it for DEO? Guess I could go check with recruiting again, but the last time I was in they weren't quite sure.  Thanks for your help.


----------



## Kirah

Hello,

I've been looking around for awhile on how you go about becoming a Nursing Officer in the Military. I've visited FORCES.CA and it's too vague on the subject. I need more of the details on becoming a Nursing Officer.  So all I have figured out currently is; Get accepted to a University, and then apply for the ROTP to pay for the schooling. Then get a BScN (at the least) and become a RN. After that, I'm not so sure on what to do.. Would i have to go to the Military to do the Basic Military Training, and then Officer Training, or? I'm not sure after that point. I would much appreciate the help and information.

Thanks!


----------



## mariomike

Kirah said:
			
		

> I would much appreciate the help and information.



You may find some information here that is helpful.

The "Nursing Officer" Merged Thread  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/4249.0.html

( The new thread is now merged. )


----------



## OblivionKnight

Hello, I just have a question. Which branch contains the most nursing officers, and does the branch they're in make a major difference? The reason I ask is because I am interested in applying to ROTP for nursing, but I much prefer the Air Force over the other branches. However I was told that there is no guarantee, and that I could be placed in any of the three branches depending on the needs of the military.


----------



## CombatDoc

The environmental uniform that you wear - CA, RCN or RCAF - makes absolutely no difference where you serve with the Royal Canadian Medical Service. You can request Air Force, and you may get the blue uniform but your postings will be independent of it.


----------



## OblivionKnight

Thanks for the clarification. Do nursing officers have to go through phase training (i.e. Common Army Phase Training in Gagetown if in the Army, or spend some time at sea if in the Navy)?


----------



## CombatDoc

You will spend no time at sea, unless you are fortunate to get an exchange with the Comfort or Mercy. I don't know about CAP, hopefully somebody else can chime in on that topic.


----------



## flatlander13

If nursing is treated similarly to PT, then no, you don't do CAP. You will, however, likely do the health services basic operational and staff officer course in Borden. I was not given choice of element, and was enrolled as land, but as stated above, this has no effect on where you are posted or what courses you have to do.


----------



## MedCorps

In order of numbers the uniform colour most Nursing Officer wear is army, then air, then sea.  Not that it makes a difference, as mentioned above. 

Nursing Officers do not do CAP.  

The "phased approach to training" is as follows: 

Basic Military Occupational Qualification 
Clinical Phase Training 
Health Services Operations and Staff Officer Course  (Which is the common Health Services phase) 
Basic Nursing Officer Course

We are currently seeing Nursing Officer "going to sea" attached to USN ships (hospital and non-hospital) for short stints of 6 weeks to 3 months with numbers changing year-to-year but generally between five and ten a year. Again, as mentioned you have to be somewhat lucky to snatch one of these choice duties.  

MC


----------



## OblivionKnight

Brilliant, thanks!


----------



## nursekatrina

As an ROTP student, upon finishing my BScN degree will I become a 2Lt or Lt?  I have heard conflicting answers from multiple sources.


----------



## RubberTree

You will be commissioned as a Lieutenant.


----------



## flatlander13

Just a technicality, but assuming you have already finished BMOQ, you will be commissioned at 2Lt, with simultaneous promotion to Lt.


----------



## generalmeng

I am pharm, and I would like to do the boat service. But I do not think that's available for us, so lucky nurses.


----------



## nursekatrina

Ok, I will be completing BMOQ this summer, 2014.  Do I become a 2Lt after completing that, and then a Lt upon completing my BScN?  I was under the understanding that I am an OCdt until I complete my 4 year degree.  Thanks everyone


----------



## flatlander13

Yes, you will be OCt until you received your BScN. Then will be commissioned at 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Lt after convocation. 

If, for instance, someone couldn't do BMOQ until after they finished their BScN (relevant to those doing an accelerated nursing program with no summer breaks), then they wouldn't be commissioned until they graduate BMOQ. At that point, I believe one is back-paid to the date they received their BScN.


----------



## nursekatrina

Understood. Thank you so much for the clarification!


----------



## mahima17

So I applied for ROTP 1.5 years ago. Missed the deadline for everything for 2013. Returned for 2014, went through my CFAT, interview & medical. Medical is put on hold till June and recruitment is this week. I was a really good candidate apparently because of all my leadership experience and interview evaluation. Long story short, because my medical is on hold till June, I will not be recruited for 2014. I was applying for my 3rd academic year and was told at interview that this is my last year because there is no ROTP recruitment for final year of education (if I was thinking of reapplying next year).

I wanted to know if there is any way for me to apply again (my medical will be fine in June technically)? I know there is DEO for that means waiting over 2 more years, getting my license and etc.. I also read somewhere on the forum that you can apply for DEO in final year but it will be a "conditional acceptance" and then I read somewhere you have to have your license & degree because you can consider applying for DEO?

It is just very heartbreaking because I have been trying for 2 years and now I'll have to wait 2 more years. That being said, DEO sounds very competitive since ROTP recruitment was 14 candidates for 2014 & DEO was only 1 in all of Canada. Just wondering what my options are at this point?!


----------



## EME101

I have a few questions about the high readiness NO postings.  My wife is posted to 1 Cdn Fld Hosp Det Edmonton this fall, but we don't have a lot of details about the detachment, so:

1.  What civilian hospital do they work at?
2.  Do they work on their own, or is it similar to CPT where they have to have a mentor?
3.  Is the work usually  a standard day day night night schedule?
4.  Does the detachment qualify for LDA since 1 Cdn Fld Hosp does?
5.  Do they have someone local for administration or does it all go through Petawawa?

Also, if someone who has experience there, does not mind pm'ing me with an email address, in case my wife has any other questions, it would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance,


----------



## babycake21

Hi Everyone.

I am currently finishing my Nursing BSc.

I joined the CF 2 years ago through the ROTP program.

I have 2 questions:
- Do the Forces employ Nurse Practitioners?
- Can you do a Masters with the Forces or Part time while continuing to work?

Thanks for any information anyone can offer.

Cheers


----------



## CombatDoc

Yes, the CF employs NP's.  However, we no longer provide post-grad training for our Nursing Officers to pursue NP certification. Yes, it is possible to obtain your Masters degree while serving.


----------



## babycake21

flatlander13 said:
			
		

> Yes, you will be OCt until you received your BScN. Then will be commissioned at 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Lt after convocation.
> 
> If, for instance, someone couldn't do BMOQ until after they finished their BScN (relevant to those doing an accelerated nursing program with no summer breaks), then they wouldn't be commissioned until they graduate BMOQ. At that point, I believe one is back-paid to the date they received their BScN.



Can anyone confirm if this is the case regarding back pay?

I Obtain my degree in June following summer semester, but due to the way BMOQs are scheduled, wont be attending CFLRS until Oct. 2015 through Feb. 2016. - That's a long time to way for my commission!

Thanks for the help!


----------



## Al55

Hi Everyone, 
Just a few questions from someone interested in a NO position. I have been working as a RN for a few years and am interested in the DEO for a nursing officer. I understand the process requires the BMOQ at St. Jean but I don't know what happens after that. Is it the Basic nursing officer course? I'm curious where this is held and how long is it. Would it be possible to be posted in the east coast? After BMOQ to you go to your posting until the next phase of training is held? 
Thanks. I'll be speaking with a recruiter when I'm in a position (geographically) to do so.

I copied this from above but it was a bit dated. 
_Basic Military Occupational Qualification? 
Clinical Phase Training ?
Health Services Operations and Staff Officer Course  (Which is the common Health Services phase)? 
Basic Nursing Officer Course?_


----------



## babycake21

Hello,

Following BMOQ you may or may not have to do 9-12 months of clinical phase training (CPT) in hospital. This usually consists of roughly 4 months in emergency department, 4 months in intensive care/Medical and 4 months in surgical. Depending on your work experience you may be able to have your hours recognized and be able to bypass this step. I know NOs who have been able to bypass it, and others who have not. This training is done in civilian hospital, where you basically follow a staff nurses schedule. The locations that offer CPT are; Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Ottawa, Montreal, Barrie, Fredericton; but they can sometimes find you a spot outside of these locations as it is simpler for the military to leave you where you already live, if it is possible, rather than post you for CPT and then re-post you again.

After CPT, you will go to Borden for Basic Nursing Officer Course (BNOC). Depending on when the course is offered and what time of year you finish your CPT, you may be posted prior to going to Borden, or after, depending on individual circumstances. 

Yes it is possible to be posted to the east coast, however, posting locations are never guaranteed.


----------



## MedCorps

In addition... 

Ideally, the Health Service Operations and Staff Officer Courser (HSOSOC) should be taken before the Basic Nursing Officer Course.  Sometimes it is done the other way around, but that is not the way it was designed.  You require both qualifications to be considered operationally functional as a Nursing Officer. 

Good luck with your application.  

MC


----------



## Danno

Lots of good info in this thread, but I have questions regarding postings. My wife is in year 1 through UTPNCM and she's clearly still got some time before postings are on the radar, but what does that usually look like? Is any base across Canada with a CDU a potential posting? Are there common postings for a NO fresh out of school? I would think the likely hood of being posted to a larger base like Trenton would be greater than being posted somewhere like Shilo [shutter]. Is that correct? I've also read in older posts that NO's were being attached to civy hospitals or at least being employed in them. Has that become more common or is that something that has come and gone?

I realize that no one here is likely to have a crystal ball with the ability to look into the future for me. I'm just curious as to what could potentially come as far as postings are concerned. 

Thanks,

Dan


----------



## MedCorps

Generalist Nursing Officers (aka General Duty Nursing Officers) are employed in five general locations: 

1) Canadian Forces Health Services Centre (aka, the base medical clinic) 
2) 1 Canadian Field Hospital High Readiness Detachment (Edmonton, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax) 
3) The Canadian Forces Health Services Training Centre (Borden) 
4) Field / Flight Unit (1/2/5 Field Ambulance, 1 Canadian Field Hospital, Air Evac Flight)
5) Staff Position (Montreal, Ottawa, Edmonton). 

Newly graduating Nursing Officers are most often posted to #1 or #2. 

1 Canadian Field Hospital High Readiness Detachments have nursing officers working primarily in civilian hospitals in order to maintain a very high level of clinical proficiency. The HRD's account for approximately 70 Lt / Capt Nursing Officers. 

Trenton and Shilo would both be category #1 clinics.  The only difference is that Shilo has less CDU's then Trenton, so statistically the chances of a Shilo posting are less.  

Lets see if I can do this from memory... from West to East 

21 CF Health Services Centre Comox
CF Health Services Centre (Pacific) - Victoria 
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / CF Trauma Training Centre West - Vancouver 
1 Fd Ambulance - Edmonton 
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / High Readiness Detachment (HRD) Edmonton 
1 Health Services Group Headquarters 
22 CF Health Services Centre - Cold Lake
12 CF Health Services Centre - Wainwright 
11 CF Health Services Centre - Shilo
23 CF Health Services Centre Winnipeg
1 Canadian Air Division Headquarters - Winnipeg
31 CF Health Services Centre Borden
CF H Svcs Training Centre - Borden 
Military Personnel Generation Training Group - Borden 
32 CF Health Services Centre - Toronto 
24 CF Health Services Centre - Trenton 
CF Air Evacuation Flight - Trenton 
1 Cdn Air Division - TRSET - Trenton 
426 Transport Training Squadron, RCAF - Trenton
33 CF Health Services Centre - Kingston  
Canadian Forces Health Services Centre Ottawa
CANSOFCOM HQ - Ottawa 
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / HRD Ottawa 
CF H Svcs Group Headquarters - Ottawa
2 Field Ambulance - Petawawa
1 Canadian Field Hospital - Petawawa 
25 CF Health Services Centre - Bagotville 
41 CF Health Services Centre - St Jean 
5 Field Ambulance - Valcartier 
4 Health Services Group Headquarters - Montreal 
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / HRD Montreal 
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / CF Trauma Training Centre (East) - Montreal  
42 CF Health Services Centre - Gagetown
26 CF Health Services Centre - Greenwood 
CF Health Services Centre (Atlantic) - Halifax
1 Cdn Fd Hosp / HRD Halifax 
Canadian Forces Health Services Group Detachment Geilenkirchen Germany 

Might not be 100% but I think these are most of the locations where Regular Force NO's are posted. 

MC


----------



## Danno

Wow.... Thank you very much, MedCorps! That's WAY more info than I was expecting and I'm very grateful for it. My wife is excited about how they run the HRD and wants to go there (and eventually Germany), but we'll see what happens when the time comes. For now, she studies..... Thanks again!


----------



## MedCorps

Not a problem. 

The HRD concept is unique.  It is about 40/50/10 General Duty Nursing Officers (GDNO) and Critical Care Nursing Officers and Perioperative Nursing Officers. 

Generally postings are three years and you ideally should only do one or two tours in your career as a NO in an HRD. 

For a GDNO they are expected to maintain a high level of clinical readiness in the following areas:

Medical / Surgical Ward Nursing 
Emergency Nursing
Pediatrics 
Obstetrics 

These are done though embedding in large civilian hospitals and doing rotations through the various specialties. If the core competencies are completed and they are deems at "high clinical readiness" GDNO's have done other rotations to gain experience in areas such as ENT, ophthalmology, dermatology, cardiology, hematology, respiratory medicine, endocrinology, neurology, neurosurgery, urology, STD clinic, dental clinic, podiatry, veterinary clinic - dogs, clinical nutrition, toxicology, anesthesia, burns, laboratory, infectious diseases, infectious control, ICU and vascular surgery.     

They are also expected to maintain currency is a number of medical courses (trauma nursing, advanced military trauma resuscitation, advanced cardiac life support, etc) as well as soldier skills (Level 2/3 individual battle task standards, such as shooting, radios, navigation, etc). Finally they are expected to be able to be rapidly deployed by maintaining there medical, psycho-social, fitness and administrative readiness.  

These NO's are the ones who often fill the high readiness tasks such as DART, Major Air Disaster, etc.

The one complaint from some of these nurses is that they feel they are always tasked during their 3 year posting to an HRD. It seems when they are not in civilian hospital doing maintenance of clinical readiness training they are "away" on course, training, teaching, exercise or deployment. Some as much as 230 days a year I am told. When I hear them complain, I just ask... "what the hell do you think happens in a HIGH READINESS detachment?"

I hope that the schooling goes well and feel free to ask any other questions.  Good crowd here on Army.ca with lots of knowledge.  

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## RubberTree

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Might not be 100% but I think these are most of the locations where Regular Force NO's are posted.
> 
> MC



There is also an exchange position for a flight nurse with the USAF in Illinois, USA.
RT


----------



## Danny78

Hey, I'm currently in the ROTP program with 2 years left to graduate and just wondering in addition to Ottawa, Edmonton, Halifax, and montreal, are there any other high readiness units?  Any advice on how to persuade superiors to consider one for these units?


----------



## MedCorps

Nope those are all the 1 Canadian Field Hospital // High Readiness Detachments. There are other high readiness opportunities, but not for a Lt Nursing Officer. 

It is hard to persuade anyone of anything when you care coming out of ROTP on obligatory service. Best you can do is state your preference(s) for posting and hope that your desires meet the needs of the service. 

MC


----------



## Danny78

Thanks! Does anyone have a rough idea of what a year in a high readiness unit would be like? Eg: 2 months in a civy hospital, then away 2 months training, back to the hospital 3 months etc?

I'm mostly interested in acute care/trauma nursing so I'm trying to figure out what is the best route for me to pursue.


----------



## MedCorps

I think the schedule varies person-to-person and is somewhat MOSID dependent. I have heard a number of the General Duty Nursing Officers / Critical Care Nursing Officers who work in the High Readiness Detachments (HRD) note that they spend 200 days a year away from home on tasking / deployment / training and the rest doing clinical maintenance of skills in the civilian hospital on the various services while on-call for a number of contingency plans. I have heard at least one comment they spend so much time away from home a year (250+ days) that it is hard to keep up the required high readiness clinical skills set as they are always away and do not have enough time for civilian hospital rotations. The tasking / training balance something that is being looked at right now by the incoming Officer Commanding HRDs. 

I am not sure that my answer helps, but might give you a little context. When it was designed, the plan was only to have the NO do a max 3-4 year line posting in the High Readiness Detachment once (or maybe twice for the non-succession planned) in their career due to the tempo and to give others a chance to be in the slot. I tell NO's who are interested that they need to be prepared for high tempo, living by the pager and immersed in civilian clinical training when not otherwise tasked. I also tell them to enjoy the "tempo rush" and maximize the experience as it will not last forever. It bothers me when I hear Jr NO's complain about the tempo when they do not realize it is short lived and they may look back on it as one of the best experience of their career. 

MC


----------



## Danny78

That is a great help, I'm wondering what kind of taskings if you could provide examples? A high tempo sounds like a fantastic experience!

Thanks


----------



## MedCorps

Taskings would include such things as exercises (domestic / international), teaching as course staff (Borden, Montreal, Vancouver), civilian lecturing, qualification standard / training plan / courseware writing boards, selection boards, Cadet Camp medical coverage, Technical Assistance Visits on operations, working groups, temporary duty to 1 Cdn Fd Hosp in Petawawa for equipment checks / familiarization / briefings / packing, etc, etc. 

MC


----------



## Danny78

Thanks! Much appreciated.


----------



## Ocean33

Hello all,

If I am selected for Nursing Officer I will need to do some CPT
A previous poster mentioned the cities where this takes place, but exceptions may be made.
I have a young child and partner in Toronto; have there been any CPT positions here?

Thank you


----------



## babycake21

There are some exceptions. The list of cities where CPT is offered is not exhaustive. There are other cities where CPT can be done. However, there are also some cities on the list which currently have no openings for CPT. 

Myself and 4 other nurses have recently been posted solely for CPT purposes. Myself with a family. Be prepared to move your family if need be, and then to potentially move them again following CPT.


----------



## Ocean33

Thank you babycake

Guess I will hold off breaking down my moving boxes. 
My little man loves travelling and meeting new people so thats a big plus


----------



## dstevens

Hello. I was interested in more of the Critical Care Nursing Officer business. 

I've been working in a level 3 med surg ICU now going on 3 years. I would assume this would count as sufficient experience. Could I vaguely ask what constitutes "critical care" for the military. I would have to assume mostly surgical issues -- trauma, blast injuries, penetrating injuries. I'm used to, pressors the odd proned pt, sometimes paralyzed,almost entirely intubated and sedated.


----------



## MedCorps

dstevens said:
			
		

> Could I vaguely ask what constitutes "critical care" for the military.



Critical care nursing officers work in three main clinical areas, mostly in the field hospital establishment. 

1) Critical care ward.  This is where the sickest patients in the field hospital are. Everything from children to geriatric with the main population being previously health adult males. Everything from trauma (multiple amputations/ burns) to organophosphate poisoning. Including some cardiac and neuro for good measure. Full range of therapeutic modalities.  Ventilation (without an RT), central lines, pressors, blood, chest tubes, iStat monitoring, ABG draws, arterial pressure monitoring, etc. You will not see much cardiac pacing and epidural / intrathecal. No intra-aortic balloon pumps or swan ganz, and minimal but some intracranial pressure monitoring. 

2) Recovery.  CCNO's recovery of patients post surgery before going to the Critical Care Ward / Intermediate Care Ward.

3) Resuscitation.  Essentially the urgent / emergency care reception side of the field hospital. They share this competency area with General Duty Nursing Officers. You treat everything that comes in the door. 

You will also see CCNO's working as critical care flight nurses for strategic (fixed wing) critical care and infectious patient aeromedical evacuation. This requires additional specialty training.


----------



## dstevens

Thank you for the generous reply Medcorps


----------



## VALERIECANDACE

Curious at to   what pay level a nursing officer starts at? A,B,C ect..... 
Is it considered a spec trade?
Currently going through the UTPNCM program and just curious on what my pay will be like.

Thanks


----------



## RubberTree

The pay scales are available here:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page

At the bottom of the page is an explanation of the pay levels:
A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)

Officers don't have spec pay. There are different pay tables for some trades (Pilots, MOs for instance) but Nurses do not fall into this category. Once you graduate and receive your commission you will promote to Lt and your pay will be as seen on the table linked to above.


----------



## PedsRN

Hi all,

I'm currently working as a civilian RN, and in the process of joining the reserves/my local field ambulance regiment as a nursing officer.  Was just wondering if anyone has any experience with the process of joining as a reserve NO?  I'm mainly trying to get an idea what the training/courses will be like, how long they will be etc.  I've gotten some mixed messages from different recruiters, so I'm wondering how different this process might be for me vs. a DEO nursing officer?  Any insight or info would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers


----------



## RNArmy

Hello,

I have a question regarding the recruiting process. I am currently a Registered Nurse and have been thinking about joining the Canadian Forces part time with my local reserve here in Thunder Bay. However, I dont see any postings at our local reserves that they are hiring and NO's. 

My question is, can you apply and complete Nursing officer training, but since there is no availability for NO, can I apply for a different job with my local reserve but still have the opportunity to sign up for or volunteer for any Nursing Officer jobs or overseas missions (as a NO). 

So, I would like to be a Nursing Officer, but not have a NO job, but still apply for NO opportunities.

Sorry if that sounds confusing. 
I have contacted my local reserve but no response yet, so I thought I'd try and get some info. 


Thanks


----------



## RNArmy

Hello,

I have a question for any Nursing Officers or anyone out there, I am currently a Registered Nurse and have been thinking about joining the Canadian Forces part time with my local reserve here in Thunder Bay. However, I dont see any postings at our local reserves that they are hiring and NO's.

My question is, can you apply and complete Nursing officer training, but since there is no availability for NO, can I apply for a different job with my local reserve but still have the opportunity to sign up for or volunteer for any Nursing Officer jobs or overseas missions (as a NO).

So, I would like to be a Nursing Officer, but not have a NO job, but still apply for NO opportunities.

Sorry if that sounds confusing.
I have contacted my local reserve but no response yet, so I thought I'd try and get some info.


Thanks


----------



## dapaterson

Search for contact information for 18 Field Ambulance; it's a medical reserve unit in Thunder Bay.  They should be able to assist you and can likely find a way to accommodate you as a NO in the CAF.


----------



## Murse

Hi,

I am a Nurse but Technically a HCA in the reserves. I have recently transferred from Infantry and at the time I initiated my transfer my unit did not have any NO positions. The training for each trade is similiar up to the BNOC (both do exactly the same BMQ, HSOSOC). 

Be careful leaving messages at the unit you wish to belong. Many phone lines and email addresses are "ghosts" and no one will get back to you. It is best to physically go there and figure out who is best to talk to. It is possible they have a position and/or get you in and borrow a position from some other unit. Hope that helps, and good luck


----------



## CombatDoc

RNArmy said:
			
		

> My question is, can you apply and complete Nursing officer training, but since there is no availability for NO, can I apply for a different job with my local reserve but still have the opportunity to sign up for or volunteer for any Nursing Officer jobs or overseas missions (as a NO).


The short answer to your question is “no, you cannot”. The professional scope of practice that you are allowed within the CF is dependent on your training AND military trade. For example, if you are an RN but have joined the Reserve Force as a Medical Assistant, then your scope of practice will be that of a Med A. You will not be allowed to deploy as a Nursing Officer unless you are enrolled as a NO. 

In Murse’s case where s/he is a civilian nurse but enrolled as an HCA, the military scope of practice for his/her clinical duties within the CF does not exist, since HCA is a non-clinical MOSID.

If you want to deploy as an NO, you need to be enrolled as NO. Hope this helps clarify.


----------



## ModlrMike

I thought I read somewhere that they recently lifted the recruiting caps for the Reserve. 

I would recommend that instead of phoning the unit, visit them in person. The recruiters are usually just a single NCO who's very busy and sometimes isn't there to answer the phone.


----------



## BadWolf87

Hey all!
I'm newly graduated with my Bachelor's of Nursing (Critical Care) and joining the CAF is somewhat a dear dream. I've reached the point where making a final decision to enroll or not is upon me, and as i'd be applying to be a Nursing Officer, i have various questions. Most are basic and probably no-brainers, but i ask nonetheless 

1) What is the assignment like? Essentially, i'm aware we get stationed where we are needed, but what are the various task differences versus a civilian hospital? 
2) What are the odds of getting the assignment you ask for? Realistically of course, i'm a Montrealer and love it here, i'm curious to know the facts.
3) What is the general attire and hygiene care for a Nursing Officer? We don't usually partake in combat ops, so i doubt our protocols for things like hair, beard, dress and such are the same. No?
4) Big one: How different is MY basic versus the usual basic? I know they are different somehow, as i wouldn't be as combat-trained as, say, infantry. But still, like every newbie, i'm curious.

I do believe these are my biggest questions. I have asked these to recruiters and some people i know in the Navy, but i admit i would love to know various opinions or stories about these. Thanks in advance!!


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, BadWolf87

I have merged your post with the existing thread.

Most, if not all, of your questions have already been asked and answered in this and other threads. Please take some time and explore this Site, and take the Search Function for a spin. There is a ton of information here ripe for the plucking. You'll also likely find answers to questions before they even occur to you.


----------



## sarahsmom

BadWolf87 said:
			
		

> Hey all!
> I'm newly graduated with my Bachelor's of Nursing (Critical Care) and joining the CAF is somewhat a dear dream. I've reached the point where making a final decision to enroll or not is upon me, and as i'd be applying to be a Nursing Officer, i have various questions. Most are basic and probably no-brainers, but i ask nonetheless
> 
> 1) What is the assignment like? Essentially, i'm aware we get stationed where we are needed, but what are the various task differences versus a civilian hospital?
> 2) What are the odds of getting the assignment you ask for? Realistically of course, i'm a Montrealer and love it here, i'm curious to know the facts.
> 3) What is the general attire and hygiene care for a Nursing Officer? We don't usually partake in combat ops, so i doubt our protocols for things like hair, beard, dress and such are the same. No?
> 4) Big one: How different is MY basic versus the usual basic? I know they are different somehow, as i wouldn't be as combat-trained as, say, infantry. But still, like every newbie, i'm curious.
> 
> I do believe these are my biggest questions. I have asked these to recruiters and some people i know in the Navy, but i admit i would love to know various opinions or stories about these. Thanks in advance!!



I can only speak to 3 and 4:
3. everyone has the same standard. The nursing officers in my clinic wear combats in their day to day jobs in the clinic. Hair, beards, jewelry, everything is to the same standard as an infanteer or clerk or whatever. 
4. BMOQ will be the same as the infantry officer or Log O or any other officer trade. You will have a special Health Services component after you finish BMOQ. You will still get trained on the gas hut, C7, leading troops, drill, etc. While you won't be AS combat trained as an infantry officer, everyone is a soldier (sailor/airmen/etc) first, trade second.


----------



## da1root

Hello,

If you'd like further information on the roles of Nursing Officer in the CAF you can email the Health Services Recruiting Email (this is for Regular Force applicants only): 
HealthSvcsRecruiting-RecrutementSvcsdesante@forces.gc.ca

Sometimes it can take a day or two (business days) to get a response but they have a hand out to email you that goes into detail.


----------



## tessa.vanz

Hello all,

I'm currently finishing up the third year of my BScN in ROTP (at Trent U. in Peterborough, ON), and I was curious if anyone has a more current list of CPT locations?  The last post about it was in 2015 (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Ottawa, Montreal, Barrie, Fredericton), however I know a few people were doing CPT in Kingston last year... Just trying to get an idea of where I may be off to next year!

Thanks!


----------



## babycake21

You might not be off to anywhere. As long as the CF has some kind of agreement with the local hospitals CPT can be done outside of the 7 regions you mentioned. I did CPT in Gatineau outside of ottawa across the q.c. border. I know others who did CPT in Kingston, others in Halifax. As long as you’re within range of a base you can work from if there are gaps between your clinical rotations and your hospital is an approved one by the CAF, CPT locations can vary


----------



## tessa.vanz

Thanks for the quick reply! As much as it would be nice to stay here, Trenton is 1.5hrs away so commuting isn’t quite reasonable.  I guess I will just sit tight and talk to the career manager next year.


----------



## BaneVincent

Hello all, 

I'm glad I found this thread, I've read most of what's posted here and they are quite insightful. Thank you to those who keep this thread active.

I am looking in signing up for NO-full-time.

Here's my background:
I graduated BScN 2008, had experience with emerge(E)/critcal care(CC) for about 2 years before going into mental health(MH) for the rest of my practice up to recent because that's what I wanted at the time. Going on 2 years now I've been working as a MH consultant for Northern parts of Canada that serves marginalized communities so in a way I've experienced and seen some things and this has sparked my interest to shift into the E/CC world again but the civy side (being in the hospital all the time) no longer interest me, I know as NO you still have clinicals but in the forces you get deployed from time to time also it's just different than being civ nurse.

Also, I'm 32 fairly gym fit. cardio could use some work but that can be taken cared of. any other 30+ that signed up made it out of BMOQ? do peoeple fail BMOQ? or will I even get a response from recruiters esp that I'm older?
I'm very flexible with moving wherever province they'll send me so CPT is not a problem.
I plan to join as an NO and knowing that my E/CC is rusty is it recommended to take some courses before signing up or is training provided?
I know they have MH staff/ dept as well but that's not why I want to sign up, with my background, training, and various certs in MH and crisis managment any chance that they'll stick me in MH? if so can I leave? I know sounds extreme but I want to be in E/CC.

edit: ok say I was in MH, what are my chances to be deployed?

any information at all can help.

Thank you!

BV


----------



## AbdullahD

Hey mate, I am not in the armed forces...

But if you do a quick search on this site you will see the short answer is that 32 is not to old. Failure rate at BMOQ is not super horrid and being fit 20 pushups/situps, 8-10 pull ups, 2.4k in 12 m 40s and able to run 5k... makes it easier.

Any rate spend some time googling this site and you will find answers to questions you never even thought of.

Abdullah

P.s
Failing BMQ
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/3792.0

Deployments
https://army.ca/forums/threads/39949/post-338325.html#msg338325


----------



## BaneVincent

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Hey mate, I am not in the armed forces...
> 
> But if you do a quick search on this site you will see the short answer is that 32 is not to old. Failure rate at BMOQ is not super horrid and being fit 20 pushups/situps, 8-10 pull ups, 2.4k in 12 m 40s and able to run 5k... makes it easier.
> 
> Any rate spend some time googling this site and you will find answers to questions you never even thought of.
> 
> Abdullah
> 
> P.s
> Failing BMQ
> https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/3792.0
> 
> Deployments
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/39949/post-338325.html#msg338325



Thanks for the reply, I've read comments I find that are somewhat relevant to me and I guess with the 'fear of unknown' I posted this, as this is a shift in career in a way and pay scale will be greatly different but I've already taken that into consideration. 

Just want to know the likelihood of shifting focus from an MH nurse to an Emerge/CC in the force. or is even sticking to MH better? 

if you or anyone has a link or some answers would be greatly appreciated.

cheers!


----------



## AbdullahD

Sorry I can't help you there. I couldn't find anything.

Maybe call a recruiter and ask? I would guess they will have or be able to get the answer for you.

Abdullah


----------



## RubberTree

BaneVincent...I'll try and answer some of your questions. The best thing you can do is ask a recruiter some questions...at least to find out how the nursing numbers stand and if they are looking for direct entry nurses right now.



			
				BaneVincent said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I'm glad I found this thread, I've read most of what's posted here and they are quite insightful. Thank you to those who keep this thread active.
> 
> I am looking in signing up for NO-full-time.
> 
> Here's my background:
> I graduated BScN 2008, had experience with emerge(E)/critcal care(CC) for about 2 years before going into mental health(MH) for the rest of my practice up to recent because that's what I wanted at the time. Going on 2 years now I've been working as a MH consultant for Northern parts of Canada that serves marginalized communities so in a way I've experienced and seen some things and this has sparked my interest to shift into the E/CC world again but the civy side (being in the hospital all the time) no longer interest me, I know as NO you still have clinicals but in the forces you get deployed from time to time also it's just different than being civ nurse.
> 
> Also, I'm 32 fairly gym fit. cardio could use some work but that can be taken cared of. any other 30+ that signed up made it out of BMOQ? do peoeple fail BMOQ? or will I even get a response from recruiters esp that I'm older?
> I'm very flexible with moving wherever province they'll send me so CPT is not a problem.
> I plan to join as an NO and knowing that my E/CC is rusty is it recommended to take some courses before signing up or is training provided?
> I know they have MH staff/ dept as well but that's not why I want to sign up, with my background, training, and various certs in MH and crisis managment any chance that they'll stick me in MH? if so can I leave? I know sounds extreme but I want to be in E/CC.
> 
> edit: ok say I was in MH, what are my chances to be deployed?
> 
> any information at all can help.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> BV



1) 32...especially a relatively fit 32 is certainly not too old to either be considered as a candidate or pass the training. If you can go into it with a determined mind set and a moderately fit body you should be fine.

2) Most NOs join as Generalists and then specialize later. You could try and submit a prior learning assessment to become a Mental Health Nurse right away but you don't have to if you don't want to go into that field. Personally I think you have been out of ER/CC too long to just hop back into that specialty (especially if you have been away from the bedside for awhile) but it is certainly something you could apply for and become trained in after you get in. All that to say I don't think specific ER/ICU courses would really help your chances of getting in unless you have the bedside hours to back it up. Courses like ACLS/PALS/TNCC/BLS etc probably wouldn't hurt though.

3) If you sell yourself as a MH nurse, you may get steered towards that field. If you make it clear that it is a skill that you have but not one that interests you anymore, no one will force you into it.

4) Deployments come and go. There are quite a few nurses deployed right now but next year and 3 years from now that may be different. It is really hard to nail down those types of possibilities. If you really want to deploy and are thinking of making the CAF into a career I would say your chances of going somewhere eventually are probably pretty good. Higher if you are a Critical Care nurse.

Hope that helps a bit.
RT


----------



## BaneVincent

Thank you both for your help. 
I did schedule to take the emerge certs like ACLS/PALS/TNCC/BLS/ and ECG interpreting I know that's integral and have a hospital lined up to take me as casual, would be great for experience while waiting.
Will look further into it and call a recruiter for further down the line. will update as necessary. Cheers!


----------



## cuspborn

Greetings.

I'm not exactly sure how to post questions on here or if this is the right thread to be posting my question in.
I understand that Nursing is a "Purple Trade" and can therefore serve in all of the elements (sea, land, air). My question is: what are the differences (advantages/disadvantages) for being a Nursing Officer (NO) for the Army vs. Navy vs. Air Force. I'm primarily interested in learning what NO's do when they are not actively deployed in theater. 

I'm a relatively new BScN graduate with approximately 1000 hours nursing experience working as an RN in in-patient physical rehab. I understand I may be asked to work at a civilian hospital after Basic Military Officer Qualification to gain acute care experience. This is primarily why I want to join CAF - to gain work experience. I would like to eventually work in critical care nursing after the military.


----------



## RubberTree

Cuspborn, 
Being a purple trade means that despite wearing the uniform of one element, you function in all three. There is absolutely no difference between an army nurse, air force nurse or navy nurse beyond the colour and style of their uniforms. All three will receive the same training and work in the same places. Even very element specific positions like Aeromedical Evacuation (AE) have nurses from the army and navy as well as the air force. 
When working on an army base vs an air force base or navy base you will obviously see patients from different trades (sailors vs airmen vs infanteers etc) but beyond that the job is the same. 
What nurses do when they are not deployed depends on where they are. Some nurses will work in primary care seeing patients on "sick parade" while others will work in the same building but will handle the administrative side of things including leadership positions or operations and training positions. Other nurses will work in "High Readiness Detachments" and will spend a great deal of time working in a civilian hospital and participating in planned exercises. The idea is that these nurses will be always ready for deployment and will be called upon first when there is a need. Other nurses are more removed from the clinical side and will work in managerial roles, usually in Ottawa and steer the direction of nursing in the CAF as a whole. There are finally a few little pockets of nurses doing things like AE, living overseas in Germany or the US or working as instructors in training centers in places like Borden.
I hope this helps.
RT


----------



## mariomike

cuspborn said:
			
		

> I understand that Nursing is a "Purple Trade" and can therefore serve in all of the elements (sea, land, air). My question is: what are the differences (advantages/disadvantages) for being a Nursing Officer (NO) for the Army vs. Navy vs. Air Force.



To add to the above, see also,



			
				ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> Nursing Officer is a so-called "purple trade", which means that your environmental uniform has no bearing on where you may be employed. You are as likely to end up in Edmonton as Halifax.





			
				RubberTree said:
			
		

> Nursing is considered a "purple" trade meaning an army nurse can just as easily be posted to a naval base as an army one.
> 
> Nurses do not go on ships.


----------



## cuspborn

mariomike said:
			
		

> Nurses do not go on ships.



My classmate is in week 5 of BMOQ. The Royal Canadian Navy offered him a position, will that mean we will most likely be posted in naval bases?


----------



## mariomike

That was a quote from RubberTree,



			
				RubberTree said:
			
		

> Nurses do not go on ships.





			
				cuspborn said:
			
		

> The Royal Canadian Navy offered him a position, will that mean we will most likely be posted in naval bases?



Please see Reply #345. 

Also Reply #344,



			
				RubberTree said:
			
		

> Being a purple trade means that despite wearing the uniform of one element, you function in all three. There is absolutely no difference between an army nurse, air force nurse or navy nurse beyond the colour and style of their uniforms. All three will receive the same training and work in the same places.



This discussion explains "Purple trades",

Purple Trades: Definition & Trg Discussion
https://army.ca/forums/threads/22558.175
11 pages.

Nursing is considered a "purple" trade.


----------



## KanD

Could someone please share the 2020 in service selection numbers for ROTP Nursing Officers?

Any advice on the following would also be appreciated:

1. Currently serving my 5th year as a Class A Reservist;

2. Have already previously completed a Bachelors of Science and Masters of Science in another field and am looking to make a full-time career change to the CAF in a medical field, which will require me to go back to university (acceptance currently pending);

3. Is an in service ROTP application for a NO of PO the most logical route or should I: (i) stick with my current Class A trade and request education reimbursement over the next four years; or (ii) postpone my acceptance to a civilian university, release from the CAF, and attempt to reapply as a civilian ROTP applicant?


----------



## Blackadder1916

KanD said:
			
		

> Could someone please share the 2020 in service selection numbers for ROTP Nursing Officers?



In the absence of someone currently in the recruiting system, the only entry plans that are listed on the recruiting webpage (https://forces.ca/en/career/nursing-officer/) for Nursing Officer are:



> Direct Entry Options
> If you already have a university degree and licence to practise as a registered Nurse in a Canadian province or territory, the CAF may place you directly into an on-the-job training program following basic training. Basic training and military officer qualification training are required before being assigned.
> 
> Paid Education Options
> Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP) –  Nursing Officer
> 
> If you already have a Diploma in Nursing from an accredited Canadian college, a current active license to practise as a Registered Nurse from a Canadian provincial or territorial regulatory authority and have proof of good standing from that authority, the CAF may subsidize up to two years of full-time studies to complete an undergraduate nursing program. You must be able to provide proof of unconditional acceptance into as accredited Canadian nursing program.
> 
> For further information, please contact a Canadian Forces Health Services Recruiter: HealthSvcsRecruiting-RecrutementSvcsdesante@forces.gc.ca



So it would seem that the CAF is only taking already qualified and licensed nurses.  The only paid educational program is to enable diploma qualified nurses to get a degree.  So, no ROTP.


----------



## winds_13

KanD said:
			
		

> Could someone please share the 2020 in service selection numbers for ROTP Nursing Officers?
> 
> Any advice on the following would also be appreciated:
> 
> 1. Currently serving my 5th year as a Class A Reservist;
> 
> 2. Have already previously completed a Bachelors of Science and Masters of Science in another field and am looking to make a full-time career change to the CAF in a medical field, which will require me to go back to university (acceptance currently pending);
> 
> 3. Is an in service ROTP application for a NO of PO the most logical route or should I: (i) stick with my current Class A trade and request education reimbursement over the next four years; or (ii) postpone my acceptance to a civilian university, release from the CAF, and attempt to reapply as a civilian ROTP applicant?



KanD,

ROTP is not an in-service selection program. However, reservists may still apply as Component Transfer ROTP applicants (CT-ROTP) and compete against regular civilian applicants. That being said, there have not been any ROTP positions for Nusing Officer in the past 2 years and I would be surprised if it is open for selection next year.

If you are looking specifically to enrol as a medical specialist, then perhaps you should consider the Medical Officer Training Program (MOTP) or the Dental Officer Training Program (DOTP). There are also programs for Subsidized Education of Entry-level Masters (SEELM) programs for Physiotherapy Officer and Social Work Officer. 

Otherwise, you can apply as a Direct Entry Officer (DEO) in any officer trade that you meet the Entry Standards for. Already having a Bachelors degree, let alone a Masters, precludes you from being found suitable for RMC or Seneca College (CEOTP Pilot program).

In no situation would I recommend a reservist to release from the CAF to apply for ROTP as a civilian. There is zero reason to do so. If anything, CT-ROTP applicants may still be given the option to attend Civilian University (for specific trades) and receive much higher pay if selected (their pay does not drop from their current level for their rank). As well, these applications are easier/faster for the recruiting centre to process as they do not require additional medical (unless going aircrew trades) or security screening.

Also keep in mind that there is a $8000 career maximum to education reimbursement for Reserve members (see below link), in case you have made claims in the past.

Hope that helps.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/education-training/reimbursements-allowances/education.html#reserve


----------



## da1root

winds_13 said:
			
		

> ROTP is not an in-service selection program. However, reservists may still apply as Component Transfer ROTP applicants (CT-ROTP) and compete against regular civilian applicants. That being said, there have not been any ROTP positions for Nusing Officer in the past 2 years and I would be surprised if it is open for selection next year.



Just want to fix some information.

2 years ago there was Nursing Officer ROTP enrollments.

Last year there was intake numbers however because Nursing Officer, Pharmacy Officer and a select few others are Civilian University only and the funding was removed no outside CAF selections were made; however 
there were some ROTP-CT's as the policy didn't extend to Reserve Members.

At current anyone asking about ROTP Nursing for this FY is being asked to contact the Health Services Recruiters again in July as the Health Services Branch has asked for ROTP Nursing to be funded again through DPGR; there is a potential intake for this year; however the final decision is likely to come in over the summer.


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

Hello,

Will there be Nursing ROTP intake this year?


----------



## RubberTree

Yes, there will be a very limited number of ROTP spots for nursing officers this year with more to follow in the next year as well.
RT


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Yes, there will be a very limited number of ROTP spots for nursing officers this year with more to follow in the next year as well.
> RT



Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Yes, there will be a very limited number of ROTP spots for nursing officers this year with more to follow in the next year as well.
> RT



Hello. I spoke to a recruiter in Ottawa today and the sergeant told me there is 0 spot for ROTP Nursing next year (2021-2022). I am a bit sad to hear this..


----------



## RubberTree

I'll reach out to the person I spoke with and confirm. Don't be discouraged, this kind of news can take time to travel.
RT


----------



## RubberTree

Fiji_boy_,
This year started with 7 spots for ROTP nursing. It has since been increased by around 20.
Whether these spots have all been filled or not I cannot tell you.


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

Hi RubberTree,

I directly talked to a health services recruiter in Borden today, and told was there were spots for this year's entry (2020) but they do not yet know whether there will be ROTP Nursing positions next year. The recruiter told me they will have that information earliest next January or February and told me to contact later next year.

Thank you for your guidance.


----------



## da1root

Fiji_Boy_ said:
			
		

> Hello. I spoke to a recruiter in Ottawa today and the sergeant told me there is 0 spot for ROTP Nursing next year (2021-2022). I am a bit sad to hear this..



Hi Fiji Boy - please reach out to me directly as I can tell you 100% that we have spots for ROTP Nursing for this year.  I'd also like to know which Sgt you were talking too so that I can ensure the proper education is reaching the recruiters.  Please send me a PM and I'll forward you my email and phone number.

Edit Note: Please check your spam email - I emailed you on 23 October 2020 and 10 November 2020 with information on ROTP Nursing - the email came from HealthSvcsRecruiting-RecrutementSvcsdesante@forces.gc.ca


----------



## da1root

CLARIFICATION FOR 2020/2021

The Health Services Branch has intake for anyone that was in a Canadian accredited degree granting undergraduate nursling program (Bachelor of Nursing, Bachelor of Science in Nursing, or Bachelor of Nursing Science) as of 1 September 2020 (1st, 2nd or 3rd year).

If you are applying for a 1 September 2021 start date, those numbers are not available at this time.  If you are currently in a program above and you contact a CFRC to process your ROTP aplication and you run into problems please send me a PM.

If you're seeking information for 1 September 2021, it will be February/March 2021 at the earliest before we know if there will be intake for next year.


----------



## dapaterson

Interesting.  I know McGill offers a MSc entry to nursing, and I believe Queens does as well; are those programs not acceptable for CAF entry plans?


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Hi Fiji Boy - please reach out to me directly as I can tell you 100% that we have spots for ROTP Nursing for this year.  I'd also like to know which Sgt you were talking too so that I can ensure the proper education is reaching the recruiters.  Please send me a PM and I'll forward you my email and phone number.
> 
> Edit Note: Please check your spam email - I emailed you on 23 October 2020 and 10 November 2020 with information on ROTP Nursing - the email came from HealthSvcsRecruiting-RecrutementSvcsdesante@forces.gc.ca



I am so grateful for all your precious help. I really appreciate all your guidance and valuable information. I will send PM, please check the box!


----------



## da1root

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Interesting.  I know McGill offers a MSc entry to nursing, and I believe Queens does as well; are those programs not acceptable for CAF entry plans?



It wouldn't qualify them for ROTP Nursing until they started an actual nursing degree.  Many ES for HS occupations have gotten more stringent over the years - for example Social Worker SEELM used to accept any undergrad with entrance into a Master of Social work - not it requires a BSW - no other undergrad degrees are accepted.


----------



## Brookep

Hello all,
Just wondering if anyone knows when ROTP nurse selection is taking place this year? 
thank you


----------



## Fiji_Boy_

Brookep said:


> Hello all,
> Just wondering if anyone knows when ROTP nurse selection is taking place this year?
> thank you


Hi,

Recruiter told me this week that they have 15 positions nationwide  for ROTP Nursing  2021-2022.


----------



## applesoranges

Who is your 'boss' when you're posted to a hospital as an RN? Can they mandate you to work overtime? Do you get overtime shifts if you want to? Can you be a casual RN at the same time at work somewhere else?
Thank you in advance for information.


----------



## RubberTree

applesoranges said:


> Who is your 'boss' when you're posted to a hospital as an RN? Can they mandate you to work overtime? Do you get overtime shifts if you want to? Can you be a casual RN at the same time at work somewhere else?
> Thank you in advance for information


The Canadian military doesn't have any hospitals (so they are never posted to a hospital) but nurses do work as "supernumerary" staff in civilian hospitals. This means that they are always considered extra staff and do not hold a paid (or union) position. During this time their boss remains their chain of command at their unit, and not the hospital leadership. This means that there is no "mandatory overtime" in a hospital setting. This is a beneficial partnership as the hospital essentially gets an extra hand for free and the military nurses get the experience required to remain competent. The arrangement also allows for the members to be pulled for a tasking or deployment without leaving the hospital shorthanded.
There are a required number of hours that nurses are required to work per year in a hospital environment. They can work more than that number if they have the time in their schedule. I suppose this can be considered overtime.
Nurses can also pick up casual (paid) positions in a hospital if they wish however this must be approved through their chain of command and cannot conflict with the member's regular duties or shifts.
I hope this answers your questions.
RT


----------



## applesoranges

RubberTree said:


> The Canadian military doesn't have any hospitals ...
> I hope this answers your questions.
> RT


RubberTree, this more than answers my questions, thank you so much! Appreciate it.


----------



## MedCorps

applesoranges said:


> Who is your 'boss' when you're posted to a hospital as an RN? Can they mandate you to work overtime? Do you get overtime shifts if you want to? Can you be a casual RN at the same time at work somewhere else?
> Thank you in advance for information.



So as a Nursing Officer there are a bunch of potential jobs.  One of the jobs you can be posted to a Canadian Forces Health Services Centre as a Primary Care Nurse. Your boss is most often a Medical Officer (Team Leader) another nurse or the Primary Care Services Manager (often a civilian nurse). In other jobs, it might be (but not limited to)  a Health Care Administrator, Health Services Operations Officer of even a Dental Officer who is your boss. It is more about the person being your superior, than what their occupation is. Nursing Officers will always have access to a Professional Technical Network to deal with nursing profession matters outside of the chain of command.

There are also the Nursing Officers who are embedded in civilian hospitals as indicated by Rubber Tree. These are part of 1 Canadian Field Hospital and the (current) leadership model is nurses reporting to nurses, reporting to nurses.

In all aspects of military service you can be mandated to work "overtime" and the "company will take what the company wants" if there is a requirement to serve. You can also be mandated to work "undertime" and sent home at 1 pm on a Friday is nothing is going on.

You are on salary. There is no overtime or reduction of salary for under working less than a 40 hour work week.

Many Nursing Officers work part-time in civilian hospitals (for pay from that hospital outside of their military work), and in many cases this is not only authorized, but also encouraged to support the maintenance of clinical competency in an in-patient setting.

MC


----------



## applesoranges

MedCorps said:


> So as a Nursing Officer there are a bunch of potential jobs.  ...


I appreciate your comprehensive response, MedCorps, it makes it very clear and gives more information to make up my mind and be motivated, hit the gym and increase the number of the push-ups I can do…


----------



## MedCorps

applesoranges said:


> I appreciate your comprehensive response, MedCorps, it makes it very clear and gives more information to make up my mind and be motivated, hit the gym and increase the number of the push-ups I can do…



No problem. If you have anything else feel free to post and we will see what we can do you help you. 

MC


----------



## applesoranges

RubberTree said:


> AE is only conducted out of Trenton now so you have to really luck out.


Copying it from another thread as a side convo. Just wanted to ask what kind of medevacs happen in Trenton? Probably, contracting out for flying out civilians?  Could that be peds, or is it specialized to adult trauma? Or just about anything critical?


----------



## RubberTree

applesoranges said:


> Copying it from another thread as a side convo. Just wanted to ask what kind of medevacs happen in Trenton? Probably, contracting out for flying out civilians?  Could that be peds, or is it specialized to adult trauma? Or just about anything critical?


The AE Flt is responsible for the medical movement (evacuation) by air of all CAF members. Whether they are injured or become ill on exercise, vacation, operations etc, the AE Flt will move them. 
The AE Flt is located in Trenton ON (co-located with most of the aircraft used in AE) so when a patient needs to be moved, the team will launch from Trenton, pick up the patient from anywhere in the world, move them to wherever they have to go (generally their city of residence) and then return to Trenton. These patients can have anything from a mild illness to a catastrophic injury.
There are rare exceptions, however as a general rule, the AE Flt does not move civilians and this includes pediatric patients.


----------



## Blackadder1916

applesoranges said:


> Copying it from another thread as a side convo. Just wanted to ask what kind of medevacs happen in Trenton? Probably, contracting out for flying out civilians?  Could that be peds, or is it specialized to adult trauma? Or just about anything critical?



If you're interested, some additional info



			https://divsurg.afod-pofa.com/DIVSURG/APP/AE/1600-1_AECO_Administrative_Instruction_MSTM_2.pdf
		










						Aeromedical Evac Manual B MD 005 000 FP 001 | PDF | Royal Canadian Air Force | Aeronautics
					

Manual de evacuação aeromedica força aérea canadense




					www.scribd.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Do we have anything like Nurse Practioners? Could we not use a trade like that to help take the heat off of MDs? Just asking because they're talking about letting NPs open their own clinics.


----------



## ginger18

Hi All,

I'm currently a civilian RN with about one year experience on an acute care heme oncology floor. I've always been interested critical care/trauma nursing and have often thought the forces would be a good fit for me. If hired, I’m wondering what the chances of being posted where I currently live are. My common law partner is in the Navy and we currently live in Halifax. Would I be able to do the clinical phase training here? What are the chances of officially being posted to Halifax after all the occupational training? Does anyone know if they are hiring NOs in Halifax currently?

Thank you all advance! This thread has been so helpful in answering many of my other questions!


----------



## RubberTree

Fishbone Jones said:


> Do we have anything like Nurse Practioners? Could we not use a trade like that to help take the heat off of MDs? Just asking because they're talking about letting NPs open their own clinics.


Currently (as of 01 April 2022) there are Nurse Practitioners (working as such) in the reserve force only. There was a trial many years ago introducing NPs into the Reg force however it did not last. Whether this will be brought back remains to be seen.


----------



## Ifeneti

Hi All, I am a civilian RPN and a QL5A Med A-PN with the primary reserves for 6+ years.  I am interested in the CT to Reg Force via ROTP as a nursing officer.  I have applied to McMaster and awaiting the admission decision. I sent an email enquiry to HSvcsRecruiting in summer but I did not get any reply and I am getting conflicting information from my unit recruiting NCO.  What should I know? Will doing the PLQ waive the BMOQ for me? What do I need from my unit to process the CT? Should I be talking to the local CFRC or keep trying to get a response from HSvcsRecruiting? Can I continue to work part-time in my civilian teaching position while in school on ROTP?

I appreciate any and all help possible and thank you in advance.


----------

