# CLARIFICATION ON THE USE OF CADET INSTRUCTOR CADRE (CIC) OFFICERS OUTSIDE THE CA



## Scoobie Newbie (2 May 2005)

CANFORGEN 081/05 VCDS 016 270938Z APR 05

UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. DGRC MESSAGE 488 011853Z SEP 98 
B. D RES MESSAGE 311 041411Z FEB 04 



THIS MESSAGE REPLACES REFERENCE B. THE POLICY ON TERMS OF SERVICE FOR CIC OFFICERS HAS BEEN APPLIED INCONSISTENTLY OVER THE YEARS. WITH THE IMPENDING IMPLEMENTATION OF AN OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE FOR CIC OFFICERS SOME OF THE ISSUES REGARDING PERMISSIBLE USE OF CIC OFFRS WILL BE RESOLVED. THERE STILL MAY BE SOME AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE CCM WHO UNKNOWINGLY MISUSE MEMBERS OF THE CIC. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO REITERATE THE POLICY THAT CIC OFFICERS WILL NOT BE USED OUTSIDE THE CCM 


THE PRIMARY DUTY OF A CIC OFFICER IS THE SAFETY, SUPERVISION, ADMINISTRATION, AND TRAINING OF CADETS. AS DEFINED IN QR&O 2.034(C), THE RAISON D'ETRE OF CIC OFFICERS IS TO BE EXPERTS IN YOUTH LEADERSHIP ON BEHALF OF THE CF 


THE PURPOSE OF REFERENCE A WAS TO REMIND EMPLOYERS THAT THE CIC HAT BADGE IS NOT BE USED AS A BADGE OF CONVENIENCE TO ALLOW PERSONNEL TO LEAVE THE REGULAR FORCE OR THE PRIMARY RESERVE AT THE AGE OF 55 AND CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE IN THE CF WHILE WEARING THE CIC HAT BADGE AND CONTINUING IN THEIR SAME JOB UNTIL THE AGE OF 65 - THE CRA FOR CIC OFFICERS. THE MESSAGE STATED, IT IS ONLY WHEN HE/SHE IS EMPLOYED IN DIRECT SUPPORT OF CCO ACTIVITIES THAT A CIC OFFICER OR A SUPP RES MEMBER ATTACHED TO THE CIC MAY BE ON ACTIVE SERVICE UNTIL AGE 65. THE MESSAGE WENT ON TO STATE, ACTION ADDRESSES ARE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION TO ENSURE THAT ABUSES OF THIS TYPE CEASE IMMEDIATELY. 


REFERENCE B WAS ISSUED TO REINFORCE REFERENCE A AND TO END THE INAPPROPRIATE USE OF CIC OFFICERS IN POSITIONS THAT ARE NOT IN SUPPORT OF THE CCM. IN REFERENCE B, DRES STATED, THE AIM OF THIS DIRECTION IS TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS OUTSIDE OF THE CCO ON NON-CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. EVENTUALLY CIC OFFICERS WILL BE USED ONLY IN CHIEF OF RESERVE AND CADETS DIVISION, CADET UNITS, REGIONAL CADET SUPPORT UNITS OR DETACHMENTS, CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTERS (CSTCS), GLIDING SCHOOLS, SAIL CENTERS, AS STAFF OFFICERS ON PROJECTS OR IN OTHER STAFF POSITIONS THAT CAN BE DIRECTLY RELATED TO SUPPORT OF CIC OR CADET RELATED ACTIVITIES. CIC OFFICERS WERE REMINDED THAT IF THEY WISHED TO CONTINUE THEIR SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM, THEY SHOULD REQUEST A TRANSFER TO THE PRES 


HENCEFORTH, CIC OFFICERS WILL ONLY BE USED ON CADET-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ONLY IN THOSE POSITIONS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH FOUR. NO CIC OFFICER CURRENTLY ON RESERVE SERVICE OUTSIDE THE CCM (OR FORMER CIC OFFICERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY ON THE SUPP RES OR ATTACHED FROM THE SUPP RES) WILL BE EXTENDED BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF HIS OR HER CURRENT ONE YEAR TERM OF SERVICE. QUESTIONS REGARDING PERMISSIBLE EMPLOYMENT ARE TO BE DIRECTED TO THE DRES STAFF AT DGRC. FURTHER, ALL REGIONAL COMMANDERS ARE TO CONDUCT A STAFF CHECK TO CONFIRM THAT ALL CIC OFFICERS ON THEIR ESTABLISHMENTS OCCUPY CIC POSITIONS AND THAT ALL THOSE CIC OFFICERS ARE WORKING IN POSITIONS THAT DIRECTLY SUPPORT THE CCM. YOUR STAFFS ARE TO INFORM BOTH DRES AND DCDTS OF THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BY 31 MAY 05.THE RESULT OF THIS STAFF CHECK BE COMPARED WITH EXISTING RPSR DATA TO CONFIRM THE NUMBER OF CIC OFFICERS WHO REMAIN EMPLOYED OUTSIDE THE CCM


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## Neill McKay (2 May 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> About time that got cleared up.



Do you know of any CIC officers working outside of the cadet system?


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## Teddy Ruxpin (2 May 2005)

Well, someone claimed on another (old) thread that there were capbadged CIC officers in Afghanistan!   :

(Sorry, pet peeve...I'll be quiet now!  ;D )

TR


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## COBRA-6 (2 May 2005)

I remember that claim! lol...

They recently changed a bunch of the full time positions at CRPTC in Ottawa from cadet to PRes terms of service...


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## Michael OLeary (2 May 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Well, someone claimed on another (old) thread that there were capbadged CIC officers in Afghanistan!   :
> 
> (Sorry, pet peeve...I'll be quiet now!  ;D )
> 
> TR



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28667/post-185435.html#msg185435


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (2 May 2005)

I was told by one of my old cadet officers that there was at one time a CIC officer as Chief of defense staff is this true?


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## aesop081 (2 May 2005)

Future Unknown said:
			
		

> I was told by one of my old cadet officers that there was at one time a CIC officer as Chief of defense staff is this true?



i'm gonna be laughing for hours now.........


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## Michael OLeary (2 May 2005)

John de Chastelain

b. 1938 (http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/people/famousfirst1085.html)

CDS (http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/commanders/cds.htm)

1989-1993 General John A.G.D. de Chastelain
1994-1997 General John A.G.D. de Chastelain


He would have been CDS the first time from the age of 51 to 55, then retired at Compulsory Retirement Age (CRA).

In 1994, at the age of 56, he returned to the appointment until age 59.

The only way he could have served at that time was under the terms of service of the CIC (CLC at the time). The new regulations posted above would now prevent this type of service. Also, the qualifications for the appointment were not gained as a CIC officer, so saying a "CIC officer" was CDS is only partly accurate. The CIC terms of service formed the loophole by which he could return to the CDS' office.


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (2 May 2005)

I realized that much  
hhmmmm.... I guess it was true 
Thanks for answering my question Michael


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## Neill McKay (2 May 2005)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> John de Chastelain



I've heard the story a couple of ways: that he was re-enroled as a CIC officer, and that he was on the Supp list and reactivated from there (both have 65 as the CRA).

Anyway, if anyone wants to start a pool on how long until this thread degerenates into another CIC-bashing session, I'm in for two days.


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## primer (3 May 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Do you know of any CIC officers working outside of the cadet system?



I have known a few CIC officers that have been working at NDHQ and not as D-CDTs


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## Inch (3 May 2005)

primer said:
			
		

> I have known a few CIC officers that have been working at NDHQ and not as D-CDTs



I guess they're out of a job now.


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## elscotto937 (3 May 2005)

Sounds like they are indeed, Inch...


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## my72jeep (3 May 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Do you know of any CIC officers working outside of the cadet system?




Two buds of mine were employed as CIC Officers at CFTDC in Borden only because no one wanted the job's. but that got stoped by this memo.


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## x-grunt (3 May 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Do you know of any CIC officers working outside of the cadet system?



There was an employment opportunity at CFB Esquimalt a couple of months ago for two CIC officers to supplement the teaching staff at NOTC Venture. I remember finding it as I was surfing around the canadian cadet site, I'm guessing they are now unemployed too.

I wonder what CIC officers teach to MARS trainees?


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## amos933 (3 May 2005)

x-grunt said:
			
		

> There was an employment opportunity at CFB Esquimalt a couple of months ago for two CIC officers to supplement the teaching staff at NOTC Venture. I remember finding it as I was surfing around the canadian cadet site, I'm guessing they are now unemployed too.
> 
> I wonder what CIC officers teach to MARS trainees?



Those billets are intended for the Tender Charge course which is staffed by Reg F, PRes and CIC. The candidates that take part in the course are from all 3 of those branches.


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## amos933 (3 May 2005)

I see a lot of people pointing fingers at CIC officers for working out side the CCM. If you read this message from another angle, I see the larger issue is Reg Force Officers. There are Regular Forces Officers that are reaching CRA, but not yet willing to retire. Through a loop hole in the CIC, Regular Forces Officers and Senior NCMs could retire and then become a member of the CIC and return to the same job, with a new CRA of 65.


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## primer (4 May 2005)

amos933 said:
			
		

> I see a lot of people pointing fingers at CIC officers for working out side the CCM. If you read this message from another angle, I see the larger issue is Reg Force Officers. There are Regular Forces Officers that are reaching CRA, but not yet willing to retire. Through a loop hole in the CIC, Regular Forces Officers and Senior NCMs could retire and then become a member of the CIC and return to the same job, with a new CRA of 65.



Finally someone saw it. The CIC were the loop hole and now its finally closed


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