# CDS Responds to Opponents of Recruiting in Schools



## The Bread Guy (5 Oct 2009)

Just spotted this on the CDS's web page (PDF also attached) - good stuff!



> Letter to the Editor: Canadian Forces Recruiting in Quebec Schools - I completely agree with the members of the Coalition Against Military Recruiting in Academic Institutions _(link to site in French)_ when they state that students must be well informed before making a career choice. That is why our CF members have a duty to participate in job fairs at schools when they are invited to do so by the appropriate authorities.
> 
> I believe that the relationship between Canadian educational institutions and CF recruiters must meet the expectations of all Canadians. It is unfortunate to hear that the Coalition is spreading certain misconceptions about CF recruiting efforts. Allow me to correct the facts:
> 
> ...


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

Great letter, somehow I doubt it will sway the mindless minds of those who join the Campagne d'opposition au rectutement militaire.   :


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## Edward Campbell (5 Oct 2009)

I'm glad he said, _"it is absolutely false to believe that the CF is seeking to attract less privileged students"_. It is important to call these "opponents" what they are: *dishonest*.


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

Eh, I don't know just because I know the difference between the military recruitment (how visible it is) in the US and in Canada.

In Canada you don't even know anything about the Canadian military unless your school has cadets (even then it still is limited). All information is found by you and the first time I saw a Canadian Forces recruiter was at a university job fair.

In the United States you look around the class room and honest to god (I laughed) you see Semper Fi stickers everywhere or "Do your part! Fight in Iraq!". Recruiters practically pick up the flunks the second they walk out of the school.


So, it does ask us what kind of system do we want especially since we aren't as gun-hoe and violent as our allies to the south.

More information would be interesting to high school kids but on a whole I disagree because at that age 90% of people who seriously take into consideration the military is because of all those damn video games they play that make it out to be such an awesome thing.

As people get older their reality meter kicks in and then they are more mature to think about joining for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones.


You know I am right  

How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> You know I am right



I know no such thing.

There are people who are very mature at the age of 17-18 and those who are still immature at older ages.  I still believe it is an _individual_ choice to join and people should be provided the _correct_ information required to make (or not make) the choice.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Oct 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> There are people who are very mature at the age of 17-18 and those who are still immature at older ages.  I still believe it is an _individual_ choice to join and people should be provided the _correct_ information required to make (or not make) the choice.



I agree, and those who would disparage military careers should also be held to account to provide fact based arguments.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?



And how many others think their years of playing GTA have established their ability to be game designers.  The failure to investigate one's career options before asking questions that might appear dumb is not limited to potential military applicants.


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

That's why we have recruiting centers I would imagine.

For people to get correct information.


It takes that extra little bit of maturity and confidence to go to the recruiting center for information vs. a recruiter being at your high school next to Moe's Waxing Willies Car Wash and Cutting the grass Services at age 16-17.


Parents already flip out for political views at school, Darwinism and kids being forced to do PT.

Imagine how much they would flip out if there kids came home saying they want to join the military because of the high school recruitment.


For people pro to recruitment in schools why not take it a step further? Let's have recruitment in churches, amateur sports, and some guy's funeral.


You know that saying about how politics and religions should never mix?

I believe the same for early recruitment and high schools. I believe cadets already do the job of recruitment because people who do actually feel some reality of the military ("wow this sucks I stand and march all day but part of me likes it") will join anyways.

If anything improve the cadet programs for schools.


Even if recruitment was allowed at high schools why on earth would the Canadian Forces ever do it? We are full of recruits at the moment anyways and are above recruitment needs (and budget).

Infantry for example is full until next April.

If the Canadian Forces recruits for anything but high school graduates for the regular force isn't it against their education? Are they not quitting high school for the military? What kind of message does that send when the military would rather you join up than finish your education? 

If it's for the reserves I doubt the current funding will meet the needs of the recruit influx received from high school recruitment.


Either way it's a very complicated issue especially when we can't support a larger military without more funding especially in the Reserves.


@Michael O'Leary

Go check out the US forums and search sniper you'll see exactly what I mean. People in Basic Training asking when they can be a sniper. Didn't they jump the gun a lot? Assuming young Canadians won't jump the gun as well is a bit of an understatement. Unlike other people I took years to make my decision and I am glad I did because I knew the truth fully.


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## mellian (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> More information would be interesting to high school kids but on a whole I disagree because at that age 90% of people who seriously take into consideration the military is because of all those damn video games they play that make it out to be such an awesome thing.
> 
> How many people have come on these forums asking to be snipers or sniper officers or sniper demolition JTF2 officers?



Reminds me of the WKUK sketch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvph0r09nDU&feature=related


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## Michael OLeary (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> @Michael O'Leary
> 
> Go check out the US forums and search sniper you'll see exactly what I mean. People in Basic Training asking when they can be a sniper. Didn't they jump the gun a lot? Assuming young Canadians won't jump the gun as well is a bit of an understatement. Unlike other people I took years to make my decision and I am glad I did because I knew the truth fully.



And exactly how many people do you know that the CF hired as soon as they walked into a Recruiting Centre and said "I want to be a sniper."?  Just because they ask a question like that, on a forum or elsewhere, doesn't mean they don't get real information in return explaining how many steps there are between "high school student" and "sniper."  

Perhaps we should only let McDonalds and other McJob employers recruit in schools, because students already have experience with happy meals.  We wouldn't want to burden them with real information on actual careers.

Then again, we could be there to provide information to ensure those taking years to choose a career path have some information to work with.


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And exactly how many people do you know that the CF hired as soon as they walked into a Recruiting Centre and said "I want to be a sniper."?  Just because they ask a question like that, on a forum or elsewhere, doesn't mean they don't get real information in return explaining how many steps there are between "high school student" and "sniper."
> 
> Perhaps we should only let McDonalds and other McJob employers recruit in schools, because students already have experience with happy meals.  We wouldn't want to burden them with real information on actual careers.
> 
> Then again, we could be there to provide information to ensure those taking years to choose a career path have some information to work with.



Honestly, Mike I would be fine with it as long as kids finished their high school education.

If military recruitment got to a point where it was pulling kids out of school for Regular Force before they finished high school then who would agree with it?

Why can't the kids learn that it's not OK to not finish high school? "It's ok that I didn't finish high school the military only needs grade 10".

The reserves I can agree with they have co-op programs but personally I would like to see our recruitment standards raised to high school graduates (for regulars). After all, the reserves is a great place to learn more about the career and whether or not the career is right for them especially at that age.


If you can't finish mandatory schooling that your forced to go to (pretty much) or you can't pass 50's on something as easy as high school then why are they being let into the military to learn even harder things than high school and hold responsibilities that can cost lives.

I know it's a bit of a stretch and I do cut off some amazing soldiers that are non-high school graduates. But I am just talking about averages, sorry if I offended any non-high school graduates.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2009)

Dean 22

Other than creating a Charter challenge, I don't see your point.  You don't seem to think that the CF should be in schools informing students of oportunities in the CF, but you are OK with all other businesses being there to actively recruit.  

The CF does have education requirements.  These other businesses do not.  If you look at the CF in the manner that you have so far presented, how do you justify ignoring all other businesses?  Your views seem a little out of whack to me.


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## The Bread Guy (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> If the Canadian Forces recruits for anything but high school graduates for the regular force isn't it against their education? Are they not quitting high school for the military? What kind of message does that send when the military would rather you join up than finish your education?


And you have some evidence of a CF recruiter saying, "ya know, it would be better for you to join now and skip Grade 12"?  I'm guessing the OPPOSITE would be happening, given the need for qualified candidates.


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

There are _very few_ jobs available in the military to someone with only a Grade 10 education.  From the Forces website Job Explorer:

Comms Research
RMS Clerk
Supply Tech

That's it.

Don't even start comparing cadets and the CF - apples and oranges.

Personally, I could care less if the CF recruited in high schools, although, not for the reasons you're giving   :, however, I feel they should be allowed to participate in Job Fairs at universities, colleges, etc.


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> There are _very few_ jobs available in the military to someone with only a Grade 10 education.  From the Forces website Job Explorer:
> 
> Comms Research
> RMS Clerk
> ...



You are incorrect according to the Canadian Forces recruitment site. Jobs available to people with a grade 10 "education" (not eduction).

	                                 Aerospace Control Operator
  	  				Aerospace Telecommunication & Information Systems Technician
  	  			  	Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator
  	  			  	Aircraft Structures Technician
  		  			Armoured Soldier
  		  			Artillery Soldier - Field
  		  		  	Artillery Soldier-Air Defence
  	  			  	Aviation Systems Technician
  	  			  	Avionics Systems Technician
	  	  		  	Boatswain
  		  		  	Combat Engineer
				  	Communicator Research Operator
  				  	Construction Technician
  				  	Electrical Distribution Technician
  					Electrical Generating Systems Technician
  		  			Electronic-Optronic Technician - Land
  	  			  	Fire Fighter
  		  		  	Geomatics Technician
	  	  		  	Hull Technician
  	  			  	Imagery Technician
  		  		  	Infantry Soldier
  		  			Land Communications and Information Systems Technician
  		  		  	Line Technician
	  	  		  	Marine Electrician
	  	  			Marine Engineering Mechanic
  		  		  	Materials Technician
  	  			  	Meteorological Technician
  				  	Mobile Support Equipment Operator
	  	  		  	Naval Combat Information Operator
	  	  			Naval Communicator
	  	  		  	Naval Electronic Sensor Operator
	  	  		  	Naval Electronics Technician (Communications)
	  	  			Naval Electronics Technician (Radar)
	  	  			Naval Electronics Technician (Sonar)
	  	  			Naval Weapons Technician
  				  	Plumbing and Heating Technician
  		  		  	Postal Clerk
  				  	Refrigeration and Mechanical Systems Technician
				  	Resource Management Support Clerk
  	  			  	Search and Rescue Technician
  		  		  	Signal Operator
	  	  			Sonar Operator
	  	  		  	Steward
				  	Supply Technician
  				  	Traffic Technician
  		  		  	Vehicle Technician
  				  	Water, Fuels and Environmental Technician
  		  		  	Weapons Technician - Land

Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs. They just don't participate in a high school fair where the Canadian Forces would be sitting next to the Friday Book Reading Club.


EDIT: Next time be sure to not check "Army, Navy, Air Force" otherwise it will only give you jobs that apply to all three elements (the ones you listed).

So basically with a grade 10 education you can be in 50 out of the 90 jobs in the Canadian Forces. With 30 officer jobs taking up 30 of the 90 jobs available in the CF. Seven more jobs are taken up by people who require a college education. That means with a Grade 10 education it would be 50 out of 53 NCM jobs that you can get into.

The three jobs requiring you to get a high school diploma?

Cook
Intelligence
Medical Technician


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## AC 011 (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22

I think you need to check how your browser functions with the search tool on the CF Recruiting site.  The only reg force jobs available with only a Grade 10 education are those quoted by PMedMoe.

The groups opposing recruitment in schools are not limited in their focus to only high schools.  Their opposition extends to post-secondary (colleges and universities) as well.  That's why PMedMoe mentioned it.


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## leroi (5 Oct 2009)

quoting Dean:


> Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs



Sorry Dean, many universities do not let Canadian Forces recruit on campus.  It's the student unions that usually make this ill-conceived decision.

And it continues to be challenged.

It's a sad reflection of Canadian culture when Marxist-Leninist and Communist Party of Canada organizations have more clout to set up shop on (some) Canadian campuses than proud members of the Canadian military have to make an occasional visit to our Recruitment Fairs. 

It's an issue that has been put before our politicians.

I wish they would answer.


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## kratz (5 Oct 2009)

In the high schools I attended, recruiters were present alongside other employers and nobody objected to their presence. Adding to that, recruiting pamphlets and materials were in the school's counselor's office. So for those thinking about the CF in those days, there was the ability to find out more about the military.

Relying on the cadet program  to spread information about the military is encouraging a misconception. Cadets are a civilian youth organization with many partners including DND.


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Also, I don't get what your talking about how they should be allowed to participate at universities and colleges since they already do participate there and in normal job fairs. They just don't participate in a high school fair where the Canadian Forces would be sitting next to the Friday Book Reading Club.



Did you click on the link in the original post?  This group is against the CF recruiting at _teaching establishments_:  http://www.antirecrutement.info/?q=en/node/50


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## Otis (5 Oct 2009)

Just to clear up another misconception ... the CF does NOT recruit in High Schools, Colleges OR Universities. 

We provide information sessions about opportunities available. I KNOW that sounds like a line from some official propaganda, but it's true. 

We do not take application packages to these places. We do not take anyone's information. We give out information only and insist that interested people come IN to the Recruiting Centre if they actually want to process an application. We actually encourage people to finish High School prior to applying!

Now, Dean22 IS correct about one thing ... all of those jobs ARE available to someone with only a grade 10 education ... what he has failed to mention however is quite a few of them require more than just a BASIC grade 10 ... all of them require 15 Ont HS credits (or provincial equivilant) but most of them require advanced math or sciences to be included within those 15 credits. From my experience, most people who take advanced level courses don't drop out after grade 10.

That's my  :2c:

Otis


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

Andy011 said:
			
		

> Dean22
> 
> I think you need to check how your browser functions with the search tool on the CF Recruiting site.  The only reg force jobs available with only a Grade 10 education are those quoted by PMedMoe.
> 
> The groups opposing recruitment in schools are not limited in their focus to only high schools.  Their opposition extends to post-secondary (colleges and universities) as well.  That's why PMedMoe mentioned it.



Your incorrect about the Grade 10 education jobs however, I did not know about the group opposed to universities and colleges especially since many enjoy the military option and information opposed to 10 years of loans for education.


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## PMedMoe (5 Oct 2009)

Otis said:
			
		

> Now, Dean22 IS correct about one thing ... all of those jobs ARE available to someone with only a grade 10 education ... what he has failed to mention however is quite a few of them require more than just a BASIC grade 10 ... all of them require 15 Ont HS credits (or provincial equivilant) but most of them require advanced math or sciences to be included within those 15 credits. From my experience, most people who take advanced level courses don't drop out after grade 10.



Not to mention, to have a more competitive application, I'm sure it would be better to have the Grade 12 education.


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## AC 011 (5 Oct 2009)

Dean.  Since you brought up the search results from the CF web site, here they are...  (hopefully this gets attached).

Regardless, isn't this getting off-topic?  The thread was started to discuss the CDS response to statements made by campus/highschool recruitment opposition groups.  The matter of educational requirements for specific trades should be (and I believe, is) covered elsewhere.


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## KingKikapu (5 Oct 2009)

As someone who went to an extremely left-leaning Canadian university while it grappled with its own identity when it came to accepting or disowning the Canadian Forces, I must say that this argument brings back a myriad of palm-to-face moments.

I suppose some things will never change, but to say that a university graduate is incapable of independent thought and analysis to the point that we need to protect them from themselves by removing CF booths at university job fairs is tantamount to a slap in the face.  What an insult to their intelligence.


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## FDO (5 Oct 2009)

There are a couple of things not quite right with this thread. First there are no unversities that we are not allowed. It is against the Constituion to not allow us in. If you ban the CF recruiter then you have to ban all other employers. UBC tried this and they have now relented. But that doesn't mean that we go where we are not wanted. It causes fewer problems if we don't go to places that the students may have a problem and could cause harm to the Recruiters or anyone talking to one.

 Next, when we go into a High School we give information about programs that we have. The ones we stress are NCMSEP (Subsidized Education Program) and ROTP. Both of these programs require you to graduate. I have done a lot of High School presentations and not once have I told anyone to quit school and follow me to the recruiting centre. Even the guys who only want a Combat Arms trade we encourage to finish High School for the main reason if they want to remuster later on they will have to qualify CFAT before they can. This also allows those students who are very good in school the opportunity to go to university if they can't afford it. University degree + job experience = productive member of Canadian society. Best part is I'm not paying for some sluggo to sit at home and drink beer and eat cheesies when they are capable of working!

You will also find it hard to believe that the number of cadets coming in to the recruiting centre is a very small percentage of our applicants. In Onttario a law was passed that students have to stay in High School until they either reach 18 years of age or graduate. why not give them info on what's available when they graduate/age out?

Education Plans that we have are;
NCMSEP
NCSTTP
METTP
ROTP
CEOTP
OCTP

All of these programs are education programs where you either go to school to earn a degree or diploma or you have to work on one while your in. And yes they all require you to graduate High School and do well not "just get by".


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## Michael OLeary (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Honestly, Mike I would be fine with it as long as kids finished their high school education.
> 
> If military recruitment got to a point where it was pulling kids out of school for Regular Force before they finished high school then who would agree with it?
> 
> ...



"If military recruitment got to a point ...."

Now you're just inventing hypothetical situationa to justify a failing argument.  Do *YOU* have proof that any CF recruiter has *encouraged* any student to drop out and join the army?


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## Dean22 (5 Oct 2009)

Andy011 said:
			
		

> Dean.  Since you brought up the search results from the CF web site, here they are...  (hopefully this gets attached).
> 
> Regardless, isn't this getting off-topic?  The thread was started to discuss the CDS response to statements made by campus/highschool recruitment opposition groups.  The matter of educational requirements for specific trades should be (and I believe, is) covered elsewhere.



Sorry but you are still wrong. I wish you read my post on how to correct your mistake rather then post again but here I will show you the results.

http://img260.imageshack.us/i/picture3y.png/
http://img42.imageshack.us/i/picture4xe.png/


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## AC 011 (5 Oct 2009)

Off topic, as far as I'm concerned, but...   I do stand corrected on the web search.  However, you're hardly the one to try to scold someone for misreading a previous post within this thread.


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## kratz (5 Oct 2009)

Dean,  You have made your position clear. While this is a privately owned site, there are many experienced current CF members here, including recruiters who have added their comments. Despite their feedback, and MilPoints feedback, you continue to post an opinion that is not the norm for CF recruiting. I would suggest that you take a moment to read  more of the site and the CFRC site before posting again.  ~ MilNet Mentor ~


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## Towards_the_gap (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Honestly, Mike I would be fine with it as long as kids finished their high school education.
> 
> If military recruitment got to a point where it was pulling kids out of school for Regular Force before they finished high school then who would agree with it?
> 
> ...



I would really love to know what background and experience you base these statements on.


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## owa (5 Oct 2009)

Good letter.

Someone mentioned this earlier, but it is sad the way things are right now as far as how some place view the CF.  I was one of those people when I was in high school.  I saw them around during job fairs, and when University's came to give out information.  I used to think they shouldn't be there, but I was ignorant.  I'm not sure where this stance comes from directly; it's more than likely this conception that the media and some activist groups put the whole military under.

The fact of the matter is that the CF is loaded with great career options that offer a lot of variety.  It's not about being a meathead with a gun; it's a proud group, with a lot of history and a lot of things to be happy about.  There's no good reason for people to be against them educating people in High School, or those on University Campuses for that matter.  It's a sad and sorry state when the citizens of this country hold ignorant prejudices against those who're ready to protect us at the command of our leaders.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Oct 2009)

I think Cadet training was a more useful stream in the old days for recruits, we used to have cadets work the guns with us and a number of them went on to be successful reserve and regular soldiers. Cadets was 13 to 18 so no need to quit school. I personally believe that cadet training was a recruiting tool that got left behind, the move to "PC" the Cadets Corp started to break the link. Not sure if the link could be rekindled in our current world view.


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## kratz (5 Oct 2009)

I agree. In my cadet time, our connection to the CF was stronger than it is today. Sadly, the message must be that DND is a partner amoung all the other partners of the Cadet youth program.  :


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## McG (5 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> More information would be interesting to high school kids but on a whole I disagree because at that age 90% of people who seriously take into consideration the military is because of all those damn video games they play that make it out to be such an awesome thing.


If your concern is that most high school students have all the wrong reasons for being in the military, why would you oppose a mechanism through which to provide them the honest truth?



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> As people get older their reality meter kicks in and then they are more mature to think about joining for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones.


Do you propose that we treat youth like mushrooms (kept in the dark & fed bull manure)?  They should be unleashed on the world at 19 having never had to deal with conflicting facts/opinion or the making of a difficult decision?  Shut-down all career activities in schools because teenagers might not be ready to handle the information? That all doesn't sound right to me.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> For people pro to recruitment in schools why not take it a step further? Let's have recruitment in churches, amateur sports, and some guy's funeral.


Slippery Slope = Fallacious Argument.
We are not debating recruitment events at churches or funerals.  You are attempting to obfuscate the issue.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> Even if recruitment was allowed at high schools why on earth would the Canadian Forces ever do it? We are full of recruits at the moment anyways and are above recruitment needs (and budget).
> 
> Infantry for example is full until next April.


1. You are in error.  You cannot extrapolate the example of the infantry to cover the whole of the CF - it is not logical and it leads you to the wrong answer (there are many other still open occupation).  You just pulled the budget assumption out of your back-side, and it is also incorrect: the schools are still in operations and churning through new service pers.

2. You are again attempting to obfuscate the issue.  We need to recruit and inform potential future recruits - that does not change even if we have a reduced demand (which we do not).



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> If the Canadian Forces recruits for anything but high school graduates for the regular force isn't it against their education?


No, because potential recruits are encouraged to complete high school and warned that not completing high school would make them less competitive next to a graduate.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> Are they not quitting high school for the military?


If they are, they should have listened.  They might find themselves greatly disappointed when they don't get accepted because the positions were filled by high school graduates.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> What kind of message does that send when the military would rather you join up than finish your education?


The message they get if they come to a high school display would be to stay in school, maybe take a part-time job in the reserves, and consider some of our over 100 occupational possibilities come graduation.    .... maybe its a good idea to keep this information source open to high school students?



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> If military recruitment got to a point where it was pulling kids out of school for Regular Force before they finished high school then who would agree with it?


We are not there, and we are not going there.  This is another slippery slope argument.  Do you want to fight the bogeyman under your bed, or join us in reality?



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> If you can't finish mandatory schooling that your forced to go to (pretty much) or you can't pass 50's on something as easy as high school then why are they being let into the military to learn even harder things than high school and hold responsibilities that can cost lives.


More obfuscation.  There may be merit to raising the entrance requirements or maybe there is not.  However, much like many other employers who don't want non-high school graduates, we want to educate youth about their options so that they start planning (get fit, stay in school to be competitive, learning French might give an edge, need the maths & sciences if I want a particular job, etc).


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## FDO (5 Oct 2009)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is we do not recruit kids under 16. The UN passed a law several years ago. I believe it was called the "child soldier bill" Not sure but it was along those lines. So we are only talking to kids 16 for Reserves and 17 for RegF. 

I can remember a recruiter coming to my high school when I was in grade 10. I don't remember him ever telling us to quit school and join but to get an education because it will help you go further faster and that was over 30 years ago when all you needed was grade 8 for most trades Today the message is still the same. It's just opportunities that are a lot better.


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## FDO (5 Oct 2009)

Found it. In part it reads as follows:

•The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, adopted in 1989 
•Under international law, the participation of children under 18 in armed conflict is generally prohibited, and the recruitment and use of children under 15 is a war crime.
We have been directed to be very careful when talking to high school kids. I can tell them what education they will need for a given trade or how good their marks have to be to be competitive for RMC but at no time can I hand out an application to anyone unless they are 16.


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## greentoblue (5 Oct 2009)

I have no idea who this Dean guy is nor do I chose to find out.  However, as this board has often been used by media and potential recruits, one issue that needs to be addressed is the Grade 10 standard for education.  

As a national institution we recruit across the country.  However education systems are run by the provinces with widely varying standards.  Instead of being placed in the role of evaluting the different educational standards - which is a political nightmare - the military sets Grade 10 as the minimum level for applications.  As has been pointed out by others, recruiters also emphasize completion of high school in order to be competitive for positions.  They do this in their presentations and at the recruiting centres because they realize that in the long run it is better for all involved, the potential applicant and the military, not to waste anyone's time or get their hopes up.  For example, no matter how bright an applicant may be, without minimum Grade 12 they are not going to get Medical Assistant.  In fact one of my phase coursemates, a nurse, informed me that in the last Med A course every candidate from the civilian world had industrial first aid plus first year university/college just to be considered.  

Additionally, many of the same trades are available in the Reserves.  This provides an opportunity for older high school students to start a part-time job that can help them earn money for post-secondary education, travel and trades training.  The Grade 10 level is usually set for most Army Reserve jobs because it roughly corresponds to when teenagers start taking on adult-level responsibilities ie driving a car, their own bank accounts, starting thinking about post secondary options, age of consent for sex (dependent on province), etc.  

As for cadets - Cadets are a youth citizenship program sponsored by the military not an indoctrination/feeder system to the military.  True some cadets join the regular and reserve forces but then so do people who worked at McDonald's, gas stations, lawn care, movie theatres, Tim Horton's etc.  In other words, more cadets choose not to join the military than actually join.

Finally, nobody in this country is forced to join the military.  Because we are a small military that is engaged in combat operations and most people no longer have a direct connection to it, it is more important than ever that Canadians receive factual information about who we are and what we do as opposed to people who have a bias set the agenda.


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## gcclarke (5 Oct 2009)

greentoblue said:
			
		

> As for cadets - Cadets are a youth citizenship program sponsored by the military not an indoctrination/feeder system to the military.  True some cadets join the regular and reserve forces but then so do people who worked at McDonald's, gas stations, lawn care, movie theatres, Tim Horton's etc.  In other words, more cadets choose not to join the military than actually join.



Statistically speaking, the comparison that matters isn't what portion of cadets join the CF. What is important is the portion of former cadets join the CF compared to the portion of non-cadets who join. Yes, not all that many cadets choose to sign on the dotted line later on in life, but I would say that it is safe to say a higher portion of former cadets, per capita, join up than non-former cadets do. 

If participating in the cadet program is going to make someone 4 times as likely to join up, then every dollar that DND spends on the cadet program would be well worth it, even if it had to come from the recruiting budget. Of course, I pulled that number out of thin air (But, considering the number of people in that I know were former cadets, I'd say it's a conservative estimate), and for a true analysis you'd have to try to figure out how many former cadets would have joined up had they not been in cadets, which would be rather difficult. I'm sure quite a number of cadets joined the cadets due to the fact that they are interested in the military, and then joined the military because they are interested in the military.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Why can't the kids learn that it's not OK to not finish high school? "It's ok that I didn't finish high school the military only needs grade 10".



Recruiting in schools is great IMO. Nothing wrong with it. The military opens many doors that these kids wouldn't have access to.
"I can do that?" is something I commonly hear when recruiting in schools.
Shit ya you can be a pilot, you can be whatever you wanna dude.

Stop acting like recruiting in highschool is some kinda evil michael moore thing.

I agressively suggest all the people I come into contact with in the reserves to finish highschool regardless if they plan on going reg force.  I tell them finish highschool and go regs, finish highschool stay in the reserves and look for a full time job or go to college/university.

I think the army should take people without highschool (only grade 10 or whatever) and offer some kinda catch up course.
Sure you can join without highschool, but the military will put you in night class or whatever and get you your highschool diploma.


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## Monsoon (6 Oct 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> Under international law, the participation of children under 18 in armed conflict is generally prohibited, and the recruitment and use of children under 15 is a war crime.


Actually, the wording of the Convention itself is much less severe, and Canada is comfortably in compliance (FYI, for the next time someone starts manking at you about recruiting in schools or how the cadet organization is a child army):

*Article 38*
1. States Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for rules of international humanitarian law applicable to them in armed conflicts which are relevant to the child.
2. States Parties shall take all feasible measures to ensure that persons who have not attained the age of fifteen years do not take a direct part in hostilities.
3. States Parties shall refrain from recruiting any person who has not attained the age of fifteen years into their armed forces. In recruiting among those persons who have attained the age of fifteen years but who have not attained the age of eighteen years, States Parties shall endeavour to give priority to those who are oldest.

_(emphasis mine)_

As far as international law goes, this is pretty soft stuff. The ages of 16 and 18 (as well as the policy of not deploying sub-18-year-olds operationally) are Canada's further beefing up over and above the treaty obligations. As far as the Convention is concerned, we could recruit 15-year-olds as long we "endeavoured" to "give priority" to older applicants. And even then, we only have to take "feasible" measures (whatever those are).


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## BC Old Guy (6 Oct 2009)

When I was in Recruiting, I wanted to be in the High Schools - to encourage the students to stay in school, and take the courses the needed so they could be considered for occupations that had specific education requirements.  

While someone can join with only Grade 10, they are at a disadvantage in being selected, as the selection criteria includes education - the more the better.  

I found that the people who had friends or relatives in the military were more likely to join - because they had a realistice idea of what the military was like, both pro and con.  Since most people do not have the opportunity to live near a military base, and make these friendships, the Recruiters are sent out to provide the link.

Overall, I think the CDS letter was well written, and concisely summarizes the arguments.

BCOG


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## Dennis Ruhl (7 Oct 2009)

A very interesting point.  The UN does not consider a 15 year old to be a child soldier.  This could be very relevant in other topics.


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## PuckChaser (7 Oct 2009)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> A very interesting point.  The UN does not consider a 15 year old to be a child soldier.  This could be very relevant in other topics.



I'll assume you're referring to Omar Khadr.... he wasn't wearing a uniform so he's not a soldier, child or otherwise. I think that's a whole other thread that could definately stoke some debate.


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## McG (7 Oct 2009)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> This could be very relevant in other topics.


Then take that observation over to those other topics and do not distract this one with a tangent.


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## Dean22 (14 Oct 2009)

By the way I apologize for misreading the original article. I had thought it meant recruitment straight out of high schools and that they were fine with recruiting in universities.

I agree information sessions in high schools should be allowed and the only reason I applied for the Canadian Forces was because of one of those information booths at a university fair. Denying the Canadian Forces from high schools and universities is wrong.


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## aesop081 (16 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Jobs available to people with a grade 10 "education.............Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator



That is incorrect. Nice try though.


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## Dean22 (17 Oct 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That is incorrect. Nice try though.



Actually, your incorrect the standards were changed.

For more information read the Canadian Forces recruiting website located here:

http://www.forces.ca/flash.aspx#/flash/en/80-81-81/jobs/job-explorer/job-explorer

Quote from http://www.forces.ca/flash.aspx#/flash/en/1-69-241-64/who-we-are/news--events/news/news

"Two new job opportunities
Two job categories previously open only to serving Canadian Forces members as a specialty trade are now offered to new recruits.

Airborne Electronic Sensor Operators are responsible for the operation of airborne sensors onboard long-range patrol aircraft, maritime helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), using advanced electronic sensor systems to counter threats to Canada's sovereignty. They defend Canada's coasts, and territorial waters, above and below the surface as well as in the far north. They deploy worldwide, in support of Canada and Allied countries' operations and exercises. They are responsible for detecting and tracking submarines, providing support for search and rescue operations/medical evacuations, and assisting Department of Fisheries with evidence collection and pollution violations. They also provide support to the RCMP with counter-narcotics patrols."

or contact your local CFRC for information instead of spreading misinformation.

Sorry, that your so confused but in the future I suggest the prevention of misinformation to potential recruits by checking sources first.


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## blacktriangle (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Actually, your incorrect the standards were changed.
> 
> For more information read the Canadian Forces recruiting website located here:
> 
> ...




I think that a Snr NCO is familiar with the tasks associated with his job, thanks.


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## aesop081 (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Sorry, that your so confused but in the future I suggest the prevention of misinformation to potential recruits by checking sources first.



Check the sources ?

Not only am i a serving AES Op supervisor but i was also part of the group of 10 individuals who wrote the new standard.

What do you have ?


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## Loachman (17 Oct 2009)

It was certainly worth looking into this thread again, just for the chortle-fest resulting from the last three posts.

Got any advice for the CDS while you're telling other people about their jobs, Dean22...?


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## Kat Stevens (17 Oct 2009)

I certainly miss my younger days, when I had an answer for absolutely everything.  Good thing I have a bunch of kids now that know everything I apparently lost over all those years of actually being in the army.


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## Dean22 (17 Oct 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Check the sources ?
> 
> Not only am i a serving AES Op supervisor but i was also part of the group of 10 individuals who wrote the new standard.
> 
> What do you have ?



Your not arguing with me, your arguing with the Canadian Forces. You should perhaps tell the Canadian Forces that they are wrong and you are correct. I think you are more experienced then those bastards who are lying to recruits on that propagandist website that they call forces.ca. 

Tell em how it is.


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## aesop081 (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Your not arguing with me, your arguing with the Canadian Forces.



I'm sorry i doubted you. Please accept my most humble appology. I will never doubt your superior military knowledge.


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## JBoyd (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22, I can confirm what CDN Aviator is saying. AES Op requires a high school diploma, how do I know this? because I just went through the application process and was told by a CFRC Recruiter what the requirements/qualifications are. 

I believe that you may be doing the search on the CF website incorrectly, when I search and select grade 10 and all 3 elements only 3 trades show up (note, I use the HTML version of the website).

Perhaps before arguing with Sr. members of the CF about things that they actually know about you may want to get correct information by contacting a recruiter, not just basing all of your information off of a website. Websites in general may not always be correct or up-to-date. It is quite possible for the trades to be shown incorrectly due to missing or incorrect code and/or search parameters. I will use the fact that if you just search (on the HTML website) for jobs with gr. 10 education then you will get the list you provided on page 1, however if you select all the elements (Army, Air Force, Navy) you will be shown the 3 trades that PMedMoe listed on page 1 of this thread. 

I suggest you stop trying to tell those that know what they are talking about that they are wrong, it is quite ignorant to think that you know more then they do on the subject. 

What I can not understand is why someone who is supposedly a recruit is taking a position such as yours on this matter.


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## Dean22 (17 Oct 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Dean22, I can confirm what CDN Aviator is saying. AES Op requires a high school diploma, how do I know this? because I just went through the application process and was told by a CFRC Recruiter what the requirements/qualifications are.
> 
> I believe that you may be doing the search on the CF website incorrectly, when I search and select grade 10 and all 3 elements only 3 trades show up (note, I use the HTML version of the website).
> 
> ...



1) Your search is trying to search for grade 10 jobs that are in all three elements. Click off the elements and search again as shown in screen shots earlier in this thread.

2) The article about grade 10 AES op openings is in fact on the CF website. That is what I linked, but no one seems to look at links anymore or screen shots for that matter.


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## gcclarke (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Your not arguing with me, your arguing with the Canadian Forces. You should perhaps tell the Canadian Forces that they are wrong and you are correct. I think you are more experienced then those bastards who are lying to recruits on that propagandist website that they call forces.ca.
> 
> Tell em how it is.



Here, let's try this again.



> You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with the *oft outdated recruiting website for the* Canadian Forces. You should perhaps tell the *webmaster of the oft outdated recruiting website for the *Canadian Forces that they are wrong and you are correct. I *have been informed* you are more experienced then those *overworked individuals who are passing along outdated information* to recruits on that *oft outdated recruiting website* that they call forces.ca.



There we go, much better! Fixed both the grammar, the know-it-all attitude, and the obvious errors in your post.


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## JBoyd (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> 2) The article about grade 10 AES op openings is in fact on the CF website. That is what I linked, but no one seems to look at links anymore or screen shots for that matter.



What you linked was actually only flash links to the parent location, not the actual articles (click the links you will see what I mean), I did however navigate the flash site to the article in question in which two new trades are available to recruits. That article is referring to trades that were previously not open for DE (meaning that you must CT/OT into the trade prior to the current DE Trial), no where in there does it state that education requirement for AES Op is grade 10. As well, no where on the AES Op trade page does it state education requirements, let alone any civilian requirements at all. Perhaps you are taking this to mean that there are no education requirements; however, were you to speak to a recruiter or any current AES Op member they would tell you that you need to have a high school diploma (in-fact someone here already has, you are just either too ignorant or daft to comprehend that information or perhaps even listen to it in the first place)

People here do still look at links, and screenshots. Members here that are in the know have stated in no uncertain terms that your search results are wrong, however you seem to want to take a oft outdated website (as gcclarke put very eloquently) over the words of actual human beings that know what they are talking about. I am actually quite thrown aback by your audacity to flat out tell someone (who in my opinion knows more about the subject than you or me) that they are incorrect. Has the thought that you may the one that is incorrect even cross your mind (or that it may be possible that the search attributes for some of the trades may not be correct)? Perhaps you should get down off of the high horse you seem to have rode in on and learn some humility, it may do you well during your CF career (however short that may be)


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## PMedMoe (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22

*Your* is possessive as in your hat, your shoes, etc.

*You're* is a contraction for you are.

I'm shocked that you don't know that with your wealth of knowledge about _everything_.


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## Loachman (17 Oct 2009)

My latest non-sexual fantasy: to be seventeen again and on course with Dean22.

I cannot imagine anything more entertaining than watching him tell his instructors how wrong they are, and on which website to find the correct information, tactics, techniques, procedures, and drills etcetera. Oh, the hilarity which would ensue. Perhaps a whole new sitcom could be born from this.


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## Dean22 (17 Oct 2009)

PMedMoe I can see grammar and spelling mistakes in yours and other people's posts but we are all human. Hopefully, you'll realize that when you log off this forum and stop power tripping.

I talked to a Sgt I know who works at a CFRC and AES op is indeed available to the best of his knowledge to people who have completed grade 10 with some courses as well.

It used to be high school graduates and not available to new recruits.

Hopefully, that will clear up confusion to any new recruits reading these threads created by some.


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## PMedMoe (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> PMedMoe I can see grammar and spelling mistakes in yours and other people's posts but we are all human. Hopefully, you'll realize that when you log off this forum and *stop power tripping*.



Hello?  Pot?  This is kettle, you're BLACK!

Dean, you know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones, right?  I only corrected you because of your correction of my *typo* back at reply #13.  That and the "Moe's Waxing Willies Car Wash" comment.   :


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## Dean22 (17 Oct 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hello?  Pot?  This is kettle, you're BLACK!
> 
> Dean, you know what they say about glass houses and throwing stones, right?  I only corrected you because of your correction of my *typo* back at reply #13.  That and the "Moe's Waxing Willies Car Wash" comment.   :



I was talking about you following all my posts to rate them (on the comment about power tripping). As for the reply #13 - touché I didn't see that.


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## PMedMoe (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> I was talking about you following all my posts to rate them (on the comment about power tripping). As for the reply #13 - touché I didn't see that.



Don't flatter yourself, buddy, I only rated you ONCE.  I thought you didn't care about MilPoints anyway.   :


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## Loachman (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> I talked to a Sgt I know who works at a CFRC



Is he an *AES Op*? Any other brand of aircrew?

CDN Aviator *is*, has been for sometime, and *wrote the current standard * (see his last post).

I know which of the two *I'd* trust.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> *to the best of his knowledge* to people who have completed grade 10 with some courses as well.



"To the best of his knowledge" implies an element of doubt.

I'm scheduled for three NVG flights next week. Got any tips for me that you've found on a website somewhere?


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## Michael OLeary (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22 said:
			
		

> PMedMoe I can see grammar and spelling mistakes in yours and other people's posts but we are all human. Hopefully, you'll realize that when you log off this forum and stop power tripping.



Dean, it may be time for you to get in some low ground and reassess your tactical approach to these forums.  Review your MilPoints history and you will see that a number of people have commented on your manner of posting.  Your focus on criticizing PMedMoe is unwarranted.

Consider this a friendly warning that your current line of approach isn't going to end well if you want to participate in these forums.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## JBoyd (17 Oct 2009)

I'm with Loachman, I would take CDN Aviator's word before someone that is not within the trade.

Dean22, you seem to be making a connection between not being available to new recruits and needing a high school diploma. AES Op now being available as DE opposed to previously only being a CT/OT trade does not indicate a change in education requirements, nor does it indicate education requirements at all. A lack of posted requirements does not mean there is none, only that the are not posted.


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## Antoine (17 Oct 2009)

Dean22, don't grill yourself on this forum.

I found this forum really helpfull from an applicant point of view. 

Even when you'll be a CF member you may have questions that could be answered in this forum by your colleagues or former CF members with plenty of experiences under their belts and only for your own benefit.

my  :2c:


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## mellian (17 Oct 2009)

It is one of those curiousities of this message board where individuals start posting, and then when criticized or corrected or whatever, they take it personally. When they do, they start reacting and usually negatively, to the point they shoot themselves in the foot, no matter if the initial concern was legitimate. This kind of thing is more evident with a reputation system like the Milpoints.

Yet, one thing is true, is that some of us do like watching the crash and burning of these individuals. As soon they notice someone, usually a newbie to the message board, they do start 'following' them around to watch, possibly partaking in the fun for whatever reason. This kind of thing happens nearly every on the internet, and it is also human nature. 

So advice to all news folks to any message board or email list or chats, do not take anything said online personally, especially at people you never met.


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## Loachman (17 Oct 2009)

mellian said:
			
		

> Yet, one thing is true, is that some of us do like watching the crash and burning of these individuals.



What do you think that it's like for us mods.

We have to struggle to maintain restraint quite a bit, and sometimes really, really, really hard.

Some posters have claimed that new members get picked on, and that's not true. The vast majority fit in just fine, but some come charging in here with an attitude and cause their own problems.

And that's a pity, because they miss out on what this site can offer them, and we may even miss out on what they may be able to offer in return, either now or in the future.

If I may use you as a positive example, you were recently heavily engaged in a lengthy thread expressing views contrary to those of almost everybody else. You were still polite and respectful, and made a great effort to explain yourself, and got no flak for it.

Most of us will never understand why you wanted to protest all of the things that you did. Many might feel that you are a bit, or even a lot, loopy for doing that. You were still able to carry on without getting dogpiled, however, because you conducted yourself decently.

Some just can't seem to figure out how to do that, though.


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