# "Man killed in fire truck collision"



## mariomike (3 Feb 2010)

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100202/firetruck_crash_100202/20100202/?hub=TorontoNewHome
The fire truck was on a medical call. This practice has become common in recent years, as fires decrease. If interested:
"Fire Dept. defends using trucks for medical calls:
Some doubt need if EMS responds":
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/01/23/fire_dept_defends_using_trucks_for_medical_calls/?page=3
In some American cities, Paramedics are taken off ambulances, and put on fire engines:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/ems-day1-dc.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/ems-day1-cover.htm

In Toronto, there is almost a four to one ratio of Firefighters to Paramedics. As the "Baby Boomers" age, demand for Paramedicine is increasing.


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## SocialyDistorted (16 Feb 2010)

Living in Richmond Hill, just a bit east of there, I can attest to how horrible the drivers around here are in general. ESPECIALLY when it comes to Police/Fire/EMS. Nobody stops, slows down, or pulls over unless the cops get P-Od and start driving agressively, or the Fire guys start acting like theyre going to plow through them. I've seen an Ambulance stuck at a light waiting to make a left for over a minute. That said, this doesnt surprise me at all. Yes, it's sad someone lost their life, but after living here so long I'm surprised it doesnt happen more often


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## mariomike (16 Feb 2010)

SocialyDistorted said:
			
		

> Nobody stops, slows down, or pulls over unless the cops get P-Od and start driving agressively, or the Fire guys start acting like theyre going to plow through them.



This is an article about safety:
http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/columns/PWW/Ambulance_Accidents_When_Will_We_Wake_Up.html

Here is something seldom mentioned, "Wake Accidents": "caused by the passage of emergency vehicle but did not actually involve the emergency vehicle":
http://www.emergencydispatch.org/articles/wakeeffect1.htm
"The subsequent finding that possibly there occur five times more wake-effect collisions than actual EMVCs"

This is an article about "The Growler":
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/03/21/usat-ambulance(acov).htm

This is from today's news:
http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/search/article/955862
http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/opinion/article/955660 :bullet:


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## mariomike (27 Feb 2010)

Update:
"Firefighter charged with careless driving in motorist's death: 
York Regional Police have charged a firefighter with careless driving in the death of a Vaughan man who died after a fire engine collided with his car earlier this month. 
Firefighter Gianmarco Solimena, 30, of Woodbridge is scheduled to appear in the Provincial Offences Justice Court in Newmarket on March 29 on a charge of careless driving, which carries a maximum fine of $2,000 and carries a potential prison term of six months under the Highway Traffic Act.":
http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/toronto/archive/2010/02/25/firefighter-charged-with-careless-driving-in-motorist-s-death.aspx

Another lawsuit.


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## pbi (22 Mar 2010)

While I certainly can't excuse negligent driving by anybody (especially an emergency vehicle operator), I have to agree that the behaviour of drivers when confonted with a responding emergency vehicle can be infuriating. And it isn't just confined to Richmond Hill. As both a bystander and as a former volunteer FF, all over Canada and in the US, I've seen the most amazingly stupid reactions. This includes people who apparently can neither hear nor see a pumper sitting on their tail with strobes, warning lights, wig-wag headlights, air horns, siren (mechanical AND electronic) and a big chrome bell all going full blast. Maybe they just freeze. I've also seen idiots, on several occasions, wait until the emergency vehicle is almost in the intersection, then make a left turn across in front of them. What is really pathetic and frustrating is to watch volunteer FFs here in Kingston trying to get through traffic with that stupid little green flashing light.  Despite the fact that half our ten stations here are volunteer, Kingston drivers act like they don't know or don't care what the green VFF light means.

Cheers

DJB


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## mariomike (22 Mar 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> What is really pathetic and frustrating is to watch volunteer FFs here in Kingston trying to get through traffic with that stupid little green flashing light.  Despite the fact that half our ten stations here are volunteer, Kingston drivers act like they don't know or don't care what the green VFF light means.



The only flashing green lights I have seen locally are on the Hatzoloh fly-cars operating in upper mid-town Toronto. I had better not comment on their driving, but they are very helpful. Very nice to work with, and make our job much easier with the community.
http://www.hatzolohtoronto.org/media/images/Hatzoloh_Green1.jpg


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2010)

Mike,

So what do these guys do? Try race an ambulance to the address and provide first aid until the ambulance gets there. It looks like they don't transport. What if you're not Hebrew and call them? Do they have emergency vehicle status? I'd be interested on your take, especially as you have no one to answer to anymore


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## pbi (22 Mar 2010)

Mariomike: other than this Hatzoloh group you identified, I doubt you'll see the volunteer responder green light in the GTA. What I still don't understand is why VFFs don't get a much more attention-getting red, blue or white light. In Massachusetts, for example, VFFs have red lights on their cars. The reasoning is that in a community protected by volunteers, the fire trucks sitting in the station are not going to turn a wheel to respond to a call until the VFFs get to the station. And, even if the driver/ops can get to the trucks in time, they can't do much if the rest of the crew can't get to the address quickly.  Considering that most FDs in the US and Canada are either partly or wholly volunteer (or "call"), it would make sense to equip them in a manner that will provide the fastest response. I've heard the argument that VFFs would be tempted to misuse the red lights, but I have a feeling that this is overdone.

Cheers


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## mariomike (22 Mar 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> So what do these guys do? Try race an ambulance to the address and provide first aid until the ambulance gets there. It looks like they don't transport. What if you're not Hebrew and call them? Do they have emergency vehicle status? I'd be interested on your take, especially as you have no one to answer to anymore



They do not transport. I don't think they are emergency vehicles,  because they have green, not red lights. 
They claim on their website - and I believe it - to have a response time of "under 3 minutes, 100% of the time. In contrast, Toronto ambulance is designed to respond to life-threatening calls in 9 minutes, a target that is met only 69% of the time." 
http://www.hatzolohtoronto.ca/
Their dispatch number is unpublished. Members call Hatzoloh, then Hatzoloh calls 9-1-1. 
They are well trained, but what they mostly do is act as a bridge between EMS and the community:
"A Jew reluctant to violate Sabbath rules when receiving medical attention from an "outsider," may be more at ease and easily convinced of the medical urgency, when the EMT or paramedic is a fellow Orthodox Jew, speaking the same patois of Yiddish, English, and Hebrew. A female worried about physical modesty and contact, knows that a Jewish provider is more aware of the details of her concerns, and will reduce the problem as much as possible."


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2010)

Cheers


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## mariomike (23 Mar 2010)

pbi said:
			
		

> Mariomike: other than this Hatzoloh group you identified, I doubt you'll see the volunteer responder green light in the GTA. What I still don't understand is why VFFs don't get a much more attention-getting red, blue or white light.



I think St. John Ambulance recently started using green lights:
http://forums.blueline.ca/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12481&start=60#p265941
"Green flashing light restricted:
2. A prescribed class of volunteer medical responder, while driving a prescribed class or type of vehicle or engaging in a prescribed activity or in prescribed conditions or circumstances. 2007, c. 13, s. 17 (5)."
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK120


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## Acer Syrup (23 Mar 2010)

The whole responding code 3 (lights and siren) is a sticky subject with me.

I agree that the general public can be out to lunch when it comes to reacting to emergency vehicles.... some people panic and some just don't frickn care.

Are we going to be able to send everyone back to drivers ed school? No. We can ticket them, remind them, do more public education... Yes! But it will never 100% cure the problem. Driving defensively is the key!!!

Bad Examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=G3uoVOOlT2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=MlQ0tJd69Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=01IGtRSuMc4

I could go all day...
I have never seen driving like this before, mostly because 90% of the drivers out there are very professional (at least where I come from).

Good Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=2-D-Q15MIlI

I guess I am biased on this one, because a friend of mine is driving. But there are good examples of (some) good lane position, good communication with officer and driver, and good intersection approach. The Captain in this video (as far as I know now) is a Captain with civilian DND Fire @ CFB Esquilmalt.


Nothing drives me more bonkers then watching or hearing about firefighters speeding or breaking rules of the road in their personal vehicle going to the fire hall. Looks pretty stupid when a emergency service worker gets in an accident going to an accident...

To drive point home:
http://www.cfff.ca/en/fallen/detail/720

Here's a little more from the cadet forum
http://www.cadet-world.com/features/memorials.html

He was my RPO (2IC or CSM.... whatever), when I aged out of cadets. We went to summer camp together... we were bunk mates when we were staff cadets and most of all we were friends. What the stories don't tell you is that he sped to a bush fire that he was most likely not even going to make a truck for... But he was so excited and filled with piss and vinegar... that he made the biggest mistake of his life... For me, sadness turned to anger and anger turned to awareness... I realized that I too sometimes drove like an @$$. I hung a picture of us in my old locker (my new hall doesn't have lockers) to remind me at every call to risk lots to save lots and risk nothing to save nothing.

I am torn when it comes to the topic of people having emergency equipment in their personal vehicle. I ask myself... would it be safer for off duty emerg service personnel to have emergency equipment (lights and siren)... I don't know. Do we gain that much more time responding? Maybe. Would we increase traffic hazards with 15 or so extra vehicles responding Code  3 to the fire hall? probably... lots to ponder. I don't have an answer.

<Long winded story>

I remember getting in an argument with my driver and passenger one morning on a call. I will set the stage. 2am brush fire call in september. Located about two or three blocks from the fire hall in a residential area with no forestland near by (Coastal Wet BC). Department policy stated command vehicle rolls first (which is no longer, yay!) with driver/accountability, 1 member for safety officer, and IC (which happened to be me). As we roll out of the hall... the lights go on.... I said " It's ok, you can respond routine". The driver and passenger just tore into me, but I stood my ground. When we got to the fire, to my surprise, it was going pretty good. All I heard was "SEE!". I made the rest of the trucks respond routine as well. That made them even more angry.

I still today stand by that decision and many more that I made along those lines.
1) it was 2am in the morning... Not much traffic at that time.
2) there was no reason to speed (risk low call)
3) we were <1min away (risk assessment)
4) Low fire risk and end of fire season
5) people just needed to calm the frick down (setting the tone)

Moral of the long winded story is emergency drivers, calm down, and you won't make bad news headlines! 
</long winded story>



A plug for Mike's occupation... Wanna do something for your community and don't know what? Become a Medic they need a lot more good people!


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## mariomike (23 Mar 2010)

Acer Syrup said:
			
		

> Good Example:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=2-D-Q15MIlI
> I guess I am biased on this one, because a friend of mine is driving. But there are good examples of (some) good lane position, good communication with officer and driver, and good intersection approach. The Captain in this video (as far as I know now) is a Captain with civilian DND Fire @ CFB Esquilmalt.



Looks like you had a good man behind the wheel there, Acer Syrup! A very scenic ride too. 
Here's a subway run for you. ( And it's not even lunch time yet  ) The skipper gives a nice running commentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n99eblgjFaE
This TFS crew was cancelled at the 9:00 minute mark. 
That's about how long it takes T-EMS to arrive on most "life-threatening" calls: 
"Toronto ambulance is designed to respond to life-threatening calls in 9 minutes, a target that is met only 69% of the time." 
That is curb time. It does not include stair climbing or elevator time. 
And it could be just one Paramedic in a clock stopper Emergency Response Unit ERU ( Crown Victoria or Tahoe ). The "transport unit" aka ambulance, could take longer. 
Which goes to show why Hatzolah is so popular.
Too many ambulances are now on Off Load Delay OLD in the "Halls of Shame" at the hospitals.


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## mariomike (19 Nov 2010)

"Vaughan firefighter fined $500 over fatal crash":
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20101117/vaughan-firefighter-fined-fatal-crash-101117/20101117/?hub=TorontoNewHome

"Paramedics took the Toyota's driver, who was the only occupant of his vehicle, to hospital. Doctors there pronounced him dead."


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## Scott (19 Nov 2010)

Why does there have to be a green light debate on my beloved Army.ca?  

Kidding, it needs to be adressed.

I can't speak for VFD's in Ontario or anywhere else in Canuckistan, I can only mouth off for us guys in Nova Scotia.

*IMO, the use of green "courtesy" lights invites abuse and has not been proven to make a difference in overall response time.*

In he province of Nova Scotia a Chief or Deputy Chief may display a flashing red light during response to emergencies and while on scene. No one else is to use lighting, be it green, purple or pink lights or 4 way flashers. All personnel must obey all regulations in the motor vehicle act and those displaying emergency lights may take an extra insurance hit for it which the department is not always responsible for.

Here's my personal opinion: I don't think a car festooned with Noma Christmas lights makes one damned bit of difference for ONE person responding to the hall when you need a minimum of three to roll and engine out the door. If two people (Chief and Deputy) in the department have flashing lights then they still have to wait for others to show up to affect response.

It simply hasn't been proven to make up time. Finito. 

We have enough problems with the assholes not wanting to yield for 30 tons of screaming, wailing, air horning, flashing  fire engine - surely to God the same asshole isn't going to yield for a lone flashing green light mounted on the dash of your K Car.

Actually, having personally witnessed how some of our more touched members drive, I think the green lights would be a good idea - to let oncoming motorists know that the person behind the wheel is a jacked up on adrenaline halfwit with zero training on how to drive in such situations.

I am speaking from the standpoint of someone who has been a paid driver of those big red trucks. Someone who is both a licensed driver of things that size and who has been to different acedemies (depending on jurisdiction) to learn how to drive said apparatus. 

So I am coming out as being against courtesy lights of any kind. Leave the lights to the Chiefs (who sometimes respond directly to a scene. I am saying that I'd like to see them left out for Nova Scotia ONLY, as I do not live or respond in other areas and do not know the traffic patterns or the perceived need. Here it's benign and nothing more than some idiots wanting traffic to part like the Redea for them as they rush off to do heroe's work  : I am touchy about this having seen the movement to get them allowed here stall and seeing the tactics the proponents have taken - which is simple insults, catcalls and browbeating (kind of like some topics here) Anyway.


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## Scott (19 Nov 2010)

And about the original topic here: it's a shame that someone was killed while someone else was trying to get to help someone else. The optics are horrible. I feel for the driver but I also feel for the victim's family. Nobody wins here.

Which is why I am so touchy about driving of emergency apparatus. And also why I don't think we need to cloud the public roads with even more flashing lights.


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## mariomike (19 Nov 2010)

Scott said:
			
		

> Which is why I am so touchy about driving of emergency apparatus. And also why I don't think we need to cloud the public roads with even more flashing lights.



And take away the last bit of fun left on the job?  ;D

In 1967 Metro Ambulance was sent to 40,000 calls. By 2005, it was up to 238,306. It's over 265,000 now.  
The geographic area has never changed: 243 sq miles.


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## Scott (22 Nov 2010)

Yeah, it's hellish fun. It's also scary-as-fuck sometimes.


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## Civvymedic (22 Nov 2010)

At least Toronto dispatches somewhat according to the nature of the Emergency. Other GTA EMS services dispatch almost everything as an Emergency requiring lights and sirens. This puts many EMS vehicles (First Response  SUV and Ambulance) plus Fire on the road rolling "Hot" for calls that do not need such a rapid response and certainly not 3 medics and 5 Fire fighters.


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## Scott (22 Nov 2010)

Good point. There's nothing, IMO, more frutsrating than being called repeatedly to the same address for that dumb SOB who is SOB yet still finds lung capacity to suck his Benson and Hedges...and getting there to realize, for the hundredth time that month, that you just disrupted the entire town to get to a call that had no reason being code.

At my former department, when I got made up to an officer's spot, I had a look at our agreement to respond to medical calls. At that time you would pick one of four categories for your desires:
1) Respond to every single call
2) Respond to 'time critical' calls
3) Respond at request of responding medics
4) No response
Realizing that all calls, with the exception of option 4, can see you requested by medics (whether critical or not)

We dropped to a category 2 and saw an immediate reduction in our nuisance calls and an overall drop in responses by about 15%. And when you're already running 200+ a year with vollies seeing a reduction of 15% is HUGE. They stay at category 2 because they don't want to chance it that a new medic might not know the protocaols for our response - but they also won't get called for Arnold when his wheelchair breaks again because he's drunk and rammed into a chair or whatever.

No I'll say this, and risk drawing fire from the medics: while MOST of the medical calls have been a complete jerk off and waste of my time there have been a few where we made a real difference and I can state, with some level of certainty, that if fire hadn't responded the outcome would have been different. Two medics can't do it all, all of the time, sometimes you need the goons to provide knuckle dragging muscle. That being said, we do not need to go to everything.

Opinions change when you're not trying to justify a staffing budget, eh?


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## mariomike (22 Nov 2010)

"EVIDENCE-BASED OPTIMIZATION OF URBAN FIREFIGHTER FIRST RESPONSE TO EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES 9-1-1 INCIDENTS":
http://naemsp-dialog.googlegroups.com/web/Topic002-Craig-OptimizingFireFirstResponse-PEC-2010.pdf
Alan M. Craig, MScPl, P. Richard Verbeek, MD, Brian Schwartz, MD

Alan Craig is a Toronto EMS Deputy Chief:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/about/senior-staff.html

Dr. Verbeek and Dr. Schwartz are from the Sunnybrook-Osler Centre for Prehospital Care in Toronto.

"RESULTS: The model predicts that FFR ( Firefighter First Response - mm ) lights-and-siren responses in the sample could be reduced by 83%, from 93,058 to 16,091 incidents, by confining FFR responses to 27 of 509 MPDS dispatch determinants, representing 7.3% of incidents but 58.9% of all predicted FFR interventions. Of the 93,058 incidents, another 58,275 incidents could be downgraded to safer nonemergency FFR responses and 18,692 responses could be eliminated entirely, improving the specificity of FFR response from 57.8% to 93.0%."

"In 1999, a U.S. national study found large fire apparatuses (over 26,000-lb gross vehicle weight) were annually involved in nearly 2,500 accidents, which killed an average of six firefighters and 15 civilians per year, and injured
more than 1,000 others. Civilians were 2.5 times as likely to be killed and four times as likely to be injured
as the responding firefighters."




			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's hellish fun. It's also scary-as-fuck sometimes.



Yes, it certainly is was.  
Andy Warhol turned it into a work of art he titled, "Ambulance Disaster": 
Estimate $1,000,000 - $1,500,000 :
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=4978875


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## Scott (23 Nov 2010)

You'll get no argument from me about rolling fire less and less. But hey, I only vollie now and don't have to guard my paycheque.

The issue is that it will never, ever be perfect. That time you keep fire in the barn and roll up for a simple SOB complaint is going to be when you're met with full arrest or Shamu waiting for transport. In the case of Shamu it's simple - have fire roll non-code for a lift assist, but with the arrest a possibility you will never have the puppet masters take that chance - so fire rolls.

I know it's never quite this simple, or easy, but this is what makes sense to me in explaining it.


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## mariomike (24 Nov 2010)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> At least Toronto dispatches somewhat according to the nature of the Emergency. Other GTA EMS services dispatch almost everything as an Emergency requiring lights and sirens. This puts many EMS vehicles (First Response  SUV and Ambulance) plus Fire on the road rolling "Hot" for calls that do not need such a rapid response and certainly not 3 medics and 5 Fire fighters.



Metro has "guidelines", Civvymedic.
S.O.P. 03.04.24
Emergency Warning Systems Guidelines
Emergency Warning Light Systems are recommended, but not limited to, the following
situations:
• While responding to the scene of an emergency call with a patient who has or may have a
possible life-threatening condition;
• Emergency Lights may be used on scene while the vehicle is parked when:
(i) the vehicle may pose a hazard to other vehicles or,
(ii) in the opinion of the driver, Emergency Lights will be beneficial for other
Emergency Services (i.e. EMS, Police, Fire) to locate the crew or,
(iii) in the opinion of the driver, Emergency Lights are necessary;
• To facilitate entry into the flow of traffic when departing a scene;
• When en route to hospital with a patient or injured person exhibiting a life-threatening or
possible life-threatening condition.
In order to enhance crew safety Emergency Lights must be activated at all times when you are
stopped at the side of a highway.


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## mariomike (21 Apr 2011)

Another in Mississauga. This time a wife and mother. 
Apr 21, 2011
"It is now clear that the fire truck had a red light, police said.":
http://www.mississauga.com/news/article/996756--firefighter-charged-in-fatal-crash

Mississauga Fire Chief John McDougall, "...didn't rule out changes to policy or driver training procedures in the wake of the fatal crash."
That sounds like a good idea.

A study of Toronto fire services responses, led by a Deputy Chief of Toronto EMS, concluded that in only 1.25 percent of emergency medical calls did fire fighters have an opportunity to offer “critical” life-saving intervention prior to ambulance arrival.
"EVIDENCE-BASED OPTIMIZATION OF URBAN FIREFIGHTER FIRST RESPONSE TO EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES 9-1-1 INCIDENTS"
Alan M. Craig, MScPl, P. Richard Verbeek, MD, Brian Schwartz, MD:
http://www.opffa.org/content/fireandems/Evidence-based%20Optimization%20of%20Urban%20Fire%20fighter%20First%20Response.pdf

"Finally, fire truck crashes, while fairly rare, can be catastrophic, largely because of the size and weight of fire apparatus. Therefore, optimizing FFR* response will limit the inherent risks to those calls in which there is at least a minimal probability of true benefit."

* Firefighter First Response


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