# Only 500 troops available by September: report



## John Nayduk (14 Jan 2004)

CTV.ca News Staff 

Updated: Wed. Jan. 14 2004 7:51 AM ET 

The Canadian army is stretched so far that only 500 troops will be available for deployment by September, according to The Globe and Mail. 

Senior commanders told the new defence minister, David Pratt, that the final straw was the deployment of Canadian troops to Afghanistan, according to Globe columnist John Ibbitson.

There are about 2,000 Canadian troops participating in the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Kabul. Their job is to provide stability and security for Afghanistan‘s civilian government.

That deployment led to delays in training and rotations home. To catch up, over the next few months 8,800 troops will be sent home or to training. 

As well, there are 600 peacekeeping troops in the Balkans, 200 in the Middle East and several more in troubled African nations, such as the Congo and Sierra Leone.

That leaves just 500 troops out of the 11,900 soldiers in the army‘s field force for new commitments. And it will be that way for about a year starting on Sept. 1, Pratt was told.

Dealing with the dwindling resources in military personnel and equipment will be a big test for Prime Minister Paul Martin. He has already promised to replace the aged Sea King helicopters and there is another deal in the works to replace Iltis jeeps in Kabul ahead of schedule.

But it will take years to replace all the obsolete equipment, and that‘s why a recent report is warning that new money won‘t stop the Canadian military from suffering for the next few years.

The report from Queen‘s University, in collaboration with the Ottawa-based Conference of Defence Associations, called for an immediate increase of $18.5 billion to the military budget. Currently, it is $13 billion.

It said that without that money, the Canadian air force and either its army or navy would disappear within 10 years.


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## The_Falcon (14 Jan 2004)

Scary and Sad


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## Danny (14 Jan 2004)

Thats nuts!


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## Pikache (14 Jan 2004)

Heh. I bet there‘s still enough reservists willing to sign up for Afghanistan tour.


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## logau (14 Jan 2004)

Well - there are really three choices

1. Wait 18 years and grow some more regulars. Workable.

2. Pull back. Workable.

3. Implement a long term 2 year contract system for the SALVATION of the regulars as follows:

a. Reserves offered a contract to go to a deployment
b. Reserves train with the Bn for 6 months prior
c. Deploy
d. Rtn and assist with trg of the next cycle.
e. Stand down - rtn to reserve duty.
f. Reserves get improvements in op capability.
g. Regs prevented from stealing the upgraded reservist for 12 months.
g. Regulars get their life calmed down.
h. go to step 3 a.

This plan needs $$$$$$$ is the only thing I can think of why it won‘t work.

Plan 3 - very workable. 



> Originally posted by Another Recce Guy:
> [QB] CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> Updated: Wed. Jan. 14 2004 7:51 AM ET
> ...


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## Tpr.Orange (14 Jan 2004)

Wow this is unbelievable i still cant believe this is...Makes you wonder....especially since just becoming a recently trained soldier. 


Hopefully this will all be resolved and i agree with what logau said it makes tons of sense.


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## dano (14 Jan 2004)

Frankly if its going to happen, which Iâ€™m still and probably will be always skeptical of,

I nonetheless will join and do my part as long as possible under whatever condition the CF is in.


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## xFusilier (14 Jan 2004)

Couple questions on your proposal, logau:

1. How sucessful was recruiting for the CRIC that deployed with 1 PPCLI, IIRC they did not get the numbers that were required from only LFWA, and had to grab people from other area‘s.  Do you think it is possible to recruit sufficient numbers, lets say for arguments sake 2/3rds of a BN 600 troops to fill the requirments for an infantry battle group?

2.  Now that RCAC Milita units have really no parity of training with the reg force, does this not imply that the Armour portion of any battle group must come from the Regular Army?

3. What about support trades, which IMHO are probably the biggest limitation to the present operational tempo, 1. Because they consititute a minority in the CF, 2. You can‘t deploy to operations without, Med Techs, PMed Techs, WFE Techs, etc, most of which have marketable civillian skills, and furthermore there are no reservists trained in these trades?

4. Lastly, if the government enacts legislation that allows them to call up reservists, for reasons other than a national emergancy (which as you know already exists), what do you think will be the precentage of troops who release rather than subject themselves to unlimited liability of service, at 85% of the pay and benefits of a regular force soldier?


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## gate_guard (14 Jan 2004)

xFusilier
There are a few problems with your statements:

1. The CRIC or D Coy, 1 PPCLI saw more than enough reservists apply from LFWA, I‘ve no idea why other Area‘s were represented. This was showcased by the many reservists cut at the end of the first month (selection), albeit a few stayed on with other elements of the battle group. 

2. Your jump from training disparities between reg and reserve armour and implying that this translates into reservists not being able to deploy is quite a stretch. That is what work up training is for. The same "disparity" exists between the reg infantry and militia, at least in the minds of some, but this doesn‘t prohibit the militia from augmenting on tours. I can see some problems arising with regards to driver and gunner courses but this can easily be solved with a few courses on work up in order for reservists  to deploy. As well, depending on the op, such as Roto 13 which saw the RCD‘s basically fulfilling the role of an infantry battle group, wouldn‘t require having reservists trained as Coyote drivers and gunners.

3. This would be the only point I agree with.

4. Reservists, when called up to Class B or C duty, are paid on par with the regular force and are entitled to any and all "benefits" of a regular force soldier.


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## Infanteer (14 Jan 2004)

> 1. How sucessful was recruiting for the CRIC that deployed with 1 PPCLI, IIRC they did not get the numbers that were required from only LFWA, and had to grab people from other area‘s. Do you think it is possible to recruit sufficient numbers, lets say for arguments sake 2/3rds of a BN 600 troops to fill the requirments for an infantry battle group?


That is incorrect.  The ROTO 11 CRIC had 180 troops show up for 120 positions within the company, all from LFWA.  Those that did not make the company where placed in other positions within the battlegroup or sent home.  ROTO 12 was forced to recruit from all areas and to choose from across the combat arms.  I am unsure of how ROTO 13 worked.
Needless to say, with ROTO 15 rolled back, there is ALOT of guys in LFWA chomping at the bit for a tour.  RoyalHighlandFusilier is right, there are plenty of Militia soldiers itching to go to Astan.



> 2. Now that RCAC Milita units have really no parity of training with the reg force, does this not imply that the Armour portion of any battle group must come from the Regular Army?


For the peace-support operations we are doing, the Militia army units seem capable of driving around in an Iltis, watching the locals, and drinking coffee, irregardless of trade.  (Afghanistan will be a bit different though)



> 3. What about support trades, which IMHO are probably the biggest limitation to the present operational tempo, 1. Because they consititute a minority in the CF, 2. You can‘t deploy to operations without, Med Techs, PMed Techs, WFE Techs, etc, most of which have marketable civillian skills, and furthermore there are no reservists trained in these trades?


True...my where shortsightedness has got us.




> 4. Lastly, if the government enacts legislation that allows them to call up reservists, for reasons other than a national emergancy (which as you know already exists), what do you think will be the precentage of troops who release rather than subject themselves to unlimited liability of service, at 85% of the pay and benefits of a regular force soldier?


When you go overseas you sign a Class C contract, which puts a reservist on par with a reg force soldier in terms of pay and benefits.


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## Infanteer (14 Jan 2004)

**** it gateguard...you beat me to the punch.  Just remember that Class B is still 85% of the pay, only it is contractual rather than daily sign in (eg summer courses)

By the way, nice snag on the Brigadiers hat, I remember that great, morning quote....


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## Pikache (14 Jan 2004)

AFAIK, Res Inf Coy for ROTO13 is just from LFCA,  though some of the guys said they could use couple of more troops.


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## xFusilier (14 Jan 2004)

With reference to the CRIC I wasn‘t sure of the way the number played out with reference to that and so I asked for clarification, tanks for advising me to the contrary.

Having re-thought my comments and your comments you are still looking at a significant difference in training, from both Armour and Infantry.  Especially if you base your battle group around a Mech Bn.  Just to throw the question out there who will be LAV Drivers/Gunners, who will man ADP, and Recce Pl?  If it is to be the regular army, I can see you training regs on a PCF cycle and having them deploy in a Cbt Sp Coy, and in selected positions, which would significantly lessen the burden of deploying people, but you still have the problem of NCO‘s and Officers in these positions all of whom require Adv Courses, to fill leadership roles in Cbt Sp Coy and so you are now back loading training obligations onto CTC.  If the Milita are going to fill these positions how long do you figure a run-up period it will take?

The one problem is operational tempo will still affect the Militia.  You may actually get enough troops but for more than one rotation especially with the scheme that logau proposed you are going to have to have 1200+ troops in rotation at any one time, between run-ups and deployment, if you bring troops in train them, deploy, 3 months after the first deployment goes you are going to have to staff another 600 so positions.  I just don‘t see the numbers coming out of the reserve.


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## Sh0rtbUs (14 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by RoyalHighlandFusilier:
> [qb] Heh. I bet there‘s still enough reservists willing to sign up for Afghanistan tour. [/qb]


Id do it in a second


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## FlightSergeantRose (14 Jan 2004)

Me too.


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## Infanteer (14 Jan 2004)

Your right x-Fusilier, I don‘t see the reserves as a sustainable source either.

Mainly because you only have a pool of about 10-20% of troops who can go away on operations.  And they usually go repeatedly, and in batches.

The other 80% either have civilian career obligations or are complete retards (They have no problems sticking around in a standardless, unchallenging reserve) and will never go.

Personally, I think the militia is a sinking ship.  Pretty quick, the entire NCO cadre is going to be guys with a comms course.


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## Garry (14 Jan 2004)

xFusilier,

with regards to training- agreed. However, never forget that the crew is merely an extension of the Crew Commanders will. If the gunner is missing targets, it‘s bcause the Crew Commander didn‘t WANT it bad enough.

Give me experienced leaders, and you‘ve got an Army.

"Better a lion at the head of a thousand sheep than a sheep at the head of a thousand lions":somebody special


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## rcasc (15 Jan 2004)

I think logau was right on with the idea of reserve augmentation as being a viable way to go. Other than the lack of techs in the reserves, already mentioned, the other reason why it won‘t happen is the political one. The SORD limits reserve participation in deployments to 20% and funding is limited to 600 positions per year. Augmentation beyond that could imply that we are at level 2 mobilization which, if sustained for more than 6 months, automatically becomes level 3. The last time that happened was Korea. There is no way that‘s going to happen today. It would be political suicide.


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## jrhume (15 Jan 2004)

Infanteer,

What can be done to correct the problems in Canada‘s Reserves?  Is anything likely to be done?

Jim


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## kurokaze (15 Jan 2004)

I‘d sign up for a tour if I knew I had a job to come back to.. hmm.. seems to be a repeating pattern for us reservists..


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## Armymedic (15 Jan 2004)

Numbers don‘t add up...
There is a whole brigade group in LFWA, and still an Battalion in Gagetown to go through as of 1 Sept. Then 1 April all 2 Brigade and LFCA will be up, again....


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## Franko (15 Jan 2004)

The numbers do add up Armymedic. If you want you can come over to C/S 0 and I‘ll show you.

Remember ‘93 Csqn Leo D&M

Yeah...come over....give daddy some sugar!    

Cheers


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## Armymedic (15 Jan 2004)

only until Sept 1, after that it gets a bit better once the guys from out west (1 VP) have a yr back.

Come to the UMS and I‘ll teach you how to count past 10 with your boots on.


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## Roger (15 Jan 2004)

I signed up, it took two years to get back in after being out for more then 10 years, we are short of corporals, and master corporals and sergeants and I had to start from scratch. Everyone told me things have changed and that I need to take all of the courses, BMQ, SQ1 and SQ2, it was all ****, the weapons changed a little but that was it, I could have gone on a weekend refresher and been up to par.

I guess I am a little disappointed, I worked hard to get back in and having to re-start has made me a little bitter, especially when I could have taught the BMQ, watching instructors reading the pre-printed lesson plans and not knowing simple answers to the lecture made it very frustrating for me, then the resentment from them if you raised your hand and gave the answer, I guess I am still bitter.

It took two years to get back in even after I harassed the **** out of the recruiting office, I think the doing the recruiting at the Regular force depot is a crock, you get the feeling you are in a government office when you walk in and everyone ignores you, then you tell them youâ€™re a reservist and they go â€œoh just wait and will find someoneâ€.


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## Franko (15 Jan 2004)

ARMYMEDIC...you ain‘t got the parts baby!!   

Seriously though..they are almost bang on the money. Wonder where they got their info?

Regards


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## NMPeters (16 Jan 2004)

Trap, how long did it take you to get in and are you bitter about it?

Old Guy, the Army Reserves are actually growing. The government has agreed to a strength increase of 750 for this fiscal year and 750 for next fiscal year along with the appropriate funding and equipment. Another 1500 may be approved in the years after depending on the success of this initial growth in an effort to bring the total strength up to 18,500. This is all being done through the Land Force Reserve Restructure project that is working on strengthening the foundation of the Army Reserve and building upon that foundation to develop an organization that is relevant to the needs of the Army and to Canada.

As for the topic of this discussion thread, Army Commanders past and present have been saying for quite a few years that the Army cannot keep up with the operational tempo in this time of constant budget and personnel cuts. This should not be news to anyone. We are just probably now at the time where the Army and probably the CF are in the position where they have no choice but to say no, no more. Is it as bad as reported? I have no idea. But I‘ll let you in on a little secret, we‘re coming up to Federal Budget time and departments are now in the position of having to posture. My guess is, you‘re going to be hearing a lot of doom and gloom stories from now until the budget is announced. That‘s the nature of the beast. And it‘s not just DND. We‘re going to hear how our health care system is going to collapse, we‘re going to hear about how our roads and infrastructure are crumbling to nothing and on and on it goes. But don‘t forget, if we don‘t tell the stories about how badly we need the funding, we‘re not going to get it.


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## V.P. (17 Jan 2004)

I‘m sorry to jump into the topic but there are s
some issues that are getting me pi**ed off. Most reg combat arms regt‘s would be willing to go anywhere (maybe not Bosnia again).It is mostly CSS trades that are burnt out because of constant tours to Bosnia where we are not needed anymore.As for the reserves being augumented to regt‘s no prob, the only thing about augumentation is qualifications.You may have a reservist with a basic L.A.V. gunnnery crse or dvr etc.but when do they get the chance to hone their skills ie. cbt team attacks.It‘not just L.A.V courses it could be T.O.W. ,recce and so on.A unit never operates alone,you need to know how to work with combined arms. Basic crses are just that BASIC.Even in the regs recently we lacking at skills. What it all boils down to is money.


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