# PWT 3 Help



## rmc_wannabe (30 May 2008)

Hey all, I did a search and couldn't find anything of reference.

I currently trying to pass my PWT 3 and am having a hard time of it. And since insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results, here I am.

I'm pretty good at the 300 metre prone and run up... but things start to fall apart from there. the 200 kneeling I butcher and the 100 prone I can't hit a fig 12. to save my life. After that its all gravy.

Anyone here have any advice on how I can improve on my weaker areas and get this thing over and done with?


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## davidk (30 May 2008)

First thing's first - know and apply your marksmanship principles. Failure to correctly apply them will result in a poor score. Try to ensure that your hold on the weapon is appropriately firm, so it's not shaking everywhere. Some people I know will wrap the sling around their elbow or tuck the butt of the rifle into their tac vest. Also, if your cardio  endurance is poor or you're running the 100m _too_ fast, your heart will be racing, and the weapon will be jumping up and down while you try to concentrate and shoot straight.


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## Jarnhamar (30 May 2008)

One of the biggest mistakes is trying to run from the 400 --> 300,   300 --> 200 ect.. as fast as you can. By the time you get there you're sucking air and your shots go all over the place.
Slow down. You can move at a slow trot and still make it there with plenty of time to shoot.

At the 100 try putting your magazine into the ground for support.
Some people will say they know a guy who knows a guy who swears that putting the magazine int he ground will cause stoppages etc..
Others say it won't matter a schmick.  I'm in the later camp. When I shoot I put my mag on the ground.  At 100 meters you should shoot fine no matter how bad you're out of breath.

Some people have a problem in the kneeling holding their point of aim and need to fight their body and breathing.
I found with some shooters (myself included at times) that not fighting it helps. Your point of aim is going up and down by a few feet-let it. As your point of aim comes across the center of mass fire off a round. Just hold your aim for a fraction of a second, all comes down to timing.  I find it works, try it out.


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## Redeye (30 May 2008)

Don't try to run too fast during the run down, you'll get your heart rate up way too high to be able to stabilize the rifle on the move.  45 seconds is a long time, you can really basically shuffle downrange and get there with time to set up.  Don't forget to set up a good position and hold too - a lot of people seem to rush positioning and therefore pull all their shots.  When you get onto the mound take three or four good deep breaths to oxygenate your blood, this will help your heart rate fall and tighten up your shot placement.


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## Osotogari (30 May 2008)

First things first - KEEP THE WEAPON OFF THE GROUND.  Very counterproductive use the magazine as an improvised bipod.  Don't do it, and feel free to slap anyone who you see doing it or suggests doing it.      

What everyone forgets is that you can get 15 easy points on PWT 3 with the first two static serials at the 300m point.  These can be practiced ad nauseum in the SAT.  With a pass of 29, you're over half way there and you haven't even started running yet.

Don't forget to change your sights from 300m to 200m at the appropriate time.  Use the few seconds after the targets drop at the 300m to do this.

Everything 100m and forward is a gimme, and some of that can be practiced in the SAT.  

So, if you get the easy points as I've described and miss everything running from 400m to 200m you should still pass.  

Remember, SAT time is golden.  If it's offered, take it.  If it's not offered, find out why.

AND FOR F**K'S SAKE KEEP THE MAGAZINE OFF THE GROUND


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## Jarnhamar (30 May 2008)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> AND FOR F**K'S SAKE KEEP THE MAGAZINE OFF THE GROUND



Why?
What's your reason for this?
Cause the weapon to jam? Nope.


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## Armymedic (31 May 2008)

Yes...why?

I believe the saying goes: If your not cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.


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## Jarnhamar (31 May 2008)

RMC wannabe, don't listen to  St Michaels MT, cheating is bad.


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## rmc_wannabe (31 May 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> RMC wannabe, don't listen to  St Michaels MT, cheating is bad.



Thanks Flawed Design! "Knowledge is power, and knowing is half the battle!" *cue _G.I. Joe_ theme*  ;D


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## George Wallace (31 May 2008)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> First things first - KEEP THE WEAPON OFF THE GROUND.  ..............
> ...............
> ...............
> ...............
> ...



???

Keep you muzzle out of the dirt.

Ensure your mag is properly seated.

Proper breathing and control.

Maintain sight picture.

Follow through.

Correct range settings.

Lots of good pointers.  Resting the mag on the ground to get a more stable position has been a point that many have converted to now a days, as opposed to the "Old Wives Tale" of it being a bad thing.  Everyone has little 'tricks' that they use to improve their shooting.  What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another.  

By the way; someone with short arms has no choice but to rest the mag on the ground.  In fact someone with a really short arm length may even have to dig a little hole in order to get comfy.

Am I a SME?  No.  I'm Armoured.  We play with bigger 'guns'.   ;D     I just listen to the debates between SME's and Non-SME's.


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## armyvern (31 May 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Why?
> What's your reason for this?
> Cause the weapon to jam? Nope.



I'm with you. Mag _ON_ the ground -- it hasn't caused a jam for me yet.

RMC_Wannabee

Relax on the run down. Breathe in through the mouth, nice deep breaths the whole way down ...

45 seconds IS a lot of time. Fuck, I had the pleasure of being on target one doing the PWT 3 a couple of weeks ago -- you know, that target where all the 4 inch deep footprints are imbedded into the dried earth because all the TOETs happen behind the mounds at target 1? I wiped out on the run from 300m down to 200m, picked my ass up and got myself there - got my shots fired - then still had a few seconds to spare before picking my ass up again to run down to 100m.

Also, remember that when you have to switch out your mags after firing 10 rounds ... *count 9* rounds, switch the mag, continue firing. *DO NOT fire the full 10 rounds* and thus empty your mag and have to waste precious seconds going through the empty mag scenario. It's better to use those seconds getting yourself into a somewhat stable position.

And, for crying out loud ... check your sight to make sure it's very tightly secured* before * you begin the run down because it seems to be a little more accurate than eyesight only (go figure eh?) ... not doing so caused a couple of failures on my relay.  :


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## davidk (31 May 2008)

Mag on the ground does cause stoppages - on the SAT machine. >


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## MJP (31 May 2008)

Good Points.....The only thing I really have to add is see if you can get one of the ARSO's (or if you can a dedicated coach) to run with ya.  I do it all the time with weakers shoters to help them along the process.  Standing up I usually have the luxury of seeing rough impact based on splash on the butts.  



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Also, remember that when you have to switch out your mags after firing 10 rounds ... *count 9* rounds, switch the mag, continue firing. *DO NOT fire the full 10 rounds* and thus empty your mag and have to waste precious seconds going through the empty mag scenario. It's better to use those seconds getting yourself into a somewhat stable position.



IIRC the Mag change on the PWT 3 comes after the 200 right before you run down to the 100 but after you finish the serial.  If that is the case there is no need to not fire one round.  Fire your rounds as usual at the 200 and change mags as soon as you are finished before running to the 100.


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## armyvern (31 May 2008)

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> Mag on the ground does cause stoppages - on the SAT machine. >



 >

It (mag on the ground) also tends to alleviate some of the issues with the other mags digging into this chickie-poo's non-existant chest while in the prone -- go figure.

Mag on the ground is especially nice should one have sandbags ... two points of stability vice one. Forearm on the bag, ground to the mag. It's always worked for me ... and with the 67mm grouping I got last time --- I ain't about to change the way I fire anytime soon.


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## armyvern (31 May 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Good Points.....The only thing I really have to add is see if you can get one of the ARSO's (or if you can a dedicated coach) to run with ya.  I do it all the time with weakers shoters to help them along the process.  Standing up I usually have the luxury of seeing rough impact based on splash on the butts.
> 
> IIRC the Mag change on the PWT 3 comes after the 200 right before you run down to the 100 but after you finish the serial.  If that is the case there is no need to not fire one round.  Fire your rounds as usual at the 200 and change mags as soon as you are finished before running to the 100.



During the serial. 25 shots. 10 round mag and a 15 round mag. Change on the fly after the first 9. That's how it's happening around here anyway ...


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## MJP (31 May 2008)

Could be, I haven't ran a PWT 3 in a few months.  I'll take a look when I'm out with the PLQ course next week.


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## davidk (31 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> >
> 
> It (mag on the ground) also tends to alleviate some of the issues with the other mags digging into this chickie-poo's non-existant chest while in the prone -- go figure.
> 
> Mag on the ground is especially nice should one have sandbags ... two points of stability vice one. Forearm on the bag, ground to the mag. It's always worked for me ... and with the 67mm grouping I got last time --- I ain't about to change the way I fire anytime soon.



I get the same thing - except the non-existant chest problem isn't much of a problem for me. I'm a small guy to begin with, so I don't have long arms. While I can still get a grouping of under 100mm with the mag off the ground, when I lower it down, my results improve dramatically.

I wouldn't go as far as to call myself an SME since I've only got a handful of years in, but some of the best shots I've worked with have let it be known that they see no problem with it.


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## NL_engineer (31 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm with you. Mag _ON_ the ground -- it hasn't caused a jam for me yet.



same for me.

I think the poster who posted "don't put the mag on the ground" has only shot on the SAT range recently  :


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## armyvern (31 May 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Could be, I haven't ran a PWT 3 in a few months.  I'll take a look when I'm out with the PLQ course next week.



Ohhh!! Let us know how many sights get dropped.  >


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## Jarnhamar (31 May 2008)

Having a shooting coach run down with you helps a lot.
Lots of new shooters get psyched out over having to count how many to fire at each stop and what position they need to adopt. 
Next pwt3 ask a shooting coach to run down with you and at each stage tell you what position to adopt and how many rounds to fire.  Nothing wrong with being nervous. After a while you'll get better and won't need it.

Don't race. The shooting coaches have a good idea how fast you need to run, run along side them or just infront.
Put your mag in the ground.  When we used to use plastic magazines and with those I might not have put them in the ground. We use metal mags now so it's not going to damage them, nor will it jam.
Instead of holding the fore stock keep your non-trigger hand wrapped around the magazine housing or where the magazine housing connects to the barrel (the little slip ring).
If I'm really out of breath (in the prone) I'll put the mag in the ground and with my non trigger hand (ie left if you shoot right handed) I'll hold on to the bottom of the butt stock and use my left hand to raise lower and steady my aim.
Try different positions in the kneeling. Ask one of the shooting coaches for ideas on the kneeling they might give you an idea on something that works for you.


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## NCRCrow (31 May 2008)

Not  a SME by any means but I found for myself over the years was that the better shape I was (Upper Body strength/Cardio) the better my score was.

Maybe it was just confidence.


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## Grunt_031 (31 May 2008)

> Why?
> What's your reason for this?
> Cause the weapon to jam? Nope.



The main reason is improper sight picture and not the mythical jamming. A lot of people can fire this way but for others and new shooters they do not have a proper sight picture especially with the C79 scope. Resting the mag on the ground drops the sight up to 2-3 inches dependent of the build of the person. Some of the shoots call for prone unsupported. Resting the mag/rifle on the ground is cheating and not at true test of your shootings skills. Prone supported on the range is a sandbag with you forearm resting on the bag and sumwhat your mag but the arm should be providing the support. Same as some of the kneeling at the one/two hundred call for supported, but most(range OIC's) do not use the poles that are provided on the range. 

I have been away from the range for a couple of years and the Shoot to Live was changing but proper positioning and marksmanship principles have not changed.

And range shooting and actual combat are two different things but if the basics are not enforce they may be problems later when the pressure is on.

This has been the debate for years and it will not go away. If you have proper marksmanship principles, proper rifle stock length, practice (thru dry, SAT and firing the shoot to live program) and especially physical fitness you can fire from any position with out problems, with or without support, and pass the PWT.


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## Osotogari (31 May 2008)

> think the poster who posted "don't put the mag on the ground" has only shot on the SAT range recently



Well, you thought wrong.  Any other bits of uninformed insight you care to pass on?  

Since you asked, not only did I pass the damn test but I did it at an ATS so I wasn't saving my rounds for end.  I was  also the RSO for a PWT range on the same ATS earlier this spring.  Funny, the people who could not get past the PWT 1 portion were the ones who obstinately rested the mag on the ground.  One even used his sandbag as a "barrel pillow" instead of properly in the prone supported.  From talking to these folks the it seemed their rifles were the problem, not their refusal to use marksmanship principles

As Grunt_031 just put it, resting the mag on the ground does not necessarily contribute to stoppages but negatively affects marksmanship principles.  It can also creates a fulcrum on which the rifle pivots during breathing and follow through.  I know this first hand because this was pointed out to me early enough in my career by a sniper and Bisely competitor, and my shooting improved immensely.  That's why I pass this on to younger shooters like the individual who started this thread.  

If you have physical limitations, then do what you have to do but you should talk to your QM to see if a shorter butt can be obtained.  If you're taller, extended rifle butts are available as well.  A good QM and/or weapons tech will sort you out.   

If you're only coming on the range once a year to pass a PWT and then not shoot again until next year's PWT then hopefully it's because of occupational pressures and not because you think that passing the PWT is the sole focus of a shooting program.  PWT's are gateway training and that is often lost on some people.


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## Teeps74 (1 Jun 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Hey all, I did a search and couldn't find anything of reference.
> 
> I currently trying to pass my PWT 3 and am having a hard time of it. And since insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results, here I am.
> 
> ...



I love doing the PWT 3 almost as much as live fire field ranges (have to, as it is gate way training  ).  First and foremost, what works for me, may not work for everyone.  Find what works, then use it everytime (make a habit of using HABIT).

You want to hold the weapon the same way in relation to your sight picture (same picture all positions). For standing and kneeling, there is a great tendency for shooters with lesser experience to lower the head into the optic, as opposed to trying to keep the same positioning.  Instead of lowering the head, trying raising the butt of the weapon further up in the shoulder to keep your head more upright.  For myself, I have lots of neck, and shoulders that are not as large as I would like, so it looks kinda crazy, as it appears that only the toe of my butt is biting my shoulder, but I do have four solid points of contact on the weapon (forward hand, trigger hand, cheek and shoulder), so it is proving to be very stable.  Practice this with dry firing, keeping the same sight picture, with lots of practice this will become instinctive (key to the PWT 3 and more advanced ranges).

On the 12 at the 100, do you find yourself a little short winded?  I could sprint the full distance, but my shooting would be horrible by the time I finished.  It is a race against a slow clock, not against the fastest runner on the relay.  I start fairly brisk with each target up, down the hill, and slow down gradually until I hit the bottom of the next mound, at which point I a walking up, take my time getting into position, and test and adjust before letting fly with my first round...  With practice, again, the test and adjust becomes much faster as your muscle memory and body will want to start naturally lining up on target.

Mag on the ground, off the ground is the great debate.  It works for some (not me).  I recommend getting used to mag not on the ground.  When I was shooting comp back in 94-95, I spent hours upon hours just dry firing from the prone.  Looks silly, and people think you are a little off drawing your rifle to dry fire for hours... But at the end of the day, it works.  When you get the hang of it from dry firing, you will find that, as I state above, your body will fall into _instinctive positioning _with very minor adjustments... This is the key, but only achieved from lots of practice. 

Just some thoughts from another 031... Last point from me, learn to enjoy shooting if you do not already. Do it lots, get on the shooting team if your unit has one.


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## BDTyre (3 Jun 2008)

Just another piece of advice.  If the weather is less than ideal (i.e. raining and not warm), try to keep a small piece of rag or cloth handy.  I did my PWT 3 times; the first two I was only two or three points away from a pass and I'm certain that those points were lost at the 300m point simply because my scope was so fogged/dirty that I couldn't even see the target properly and had no idea what I was shooting at.


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## Harris (3 Jun 2008)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> First things first - KEEP THE WEAPON OFF THE GROUND.  Very counterproductive use the magazine as an improvised bipod.  Don't do it, and feel free to slap anyone who you see doing it or suggests doing it.
> 
> What everyone forgets is that you can get 15 easy points on PWT 3 with the first two static serials at the 300m point.  These can be practiced ad nauseum in the SAT.  With a pass of 29, you're over half way there and you haven't even started running yet.
> 
> ...



I normally don't like to argue shooting stances etc... but I have to disagree with you on the don't put the magazine on the ground.  My question is why not?
Just to put my experience in perspective, I've shot at CFSAC for a few years, I've fired more than 50,000 rounds from a C7 with the mag on the ground, and managed to nearly win Top TYRO my first year and I've made the Top 50 shooters in the CF three times, and been a member of the Top team twice.  I've represented Canada at an International shoot in the US.  So I feel I can reasonably comment on this subject.  In all my time shooting I've never had a stoppage due to having the mag on the ground, and I've never had an issue related to doing so.  That being said, I'm not saying all should put the mag on the ground, but it works for many.  Shooting IMO is about doing the same thing consistently and doing what works for YOU, while trying to apply marksmanship principles.

BTW three of the Queens medalist (multiple wins each) I've shot with shoot with the mag on the ground.


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## TCBF (3 Jun 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> I normally don't like to argue shooting stances etc... but I have to disagree with you on the don't put the magazine on the ground.  My question is why not?
> Just to put my experience in perspective, I've shot at CFSAC for a few years, I've fired more than 50,000 rounds from a C7 with the mag on the ground, and managed to nearly win Top TYRO my first year and I've made the Top 50 shooters in the CF three times, and been a member of the Top team twice.  I've represented Canada at an International shoot in the US.  So I feel I can reasonably comment on this subject.  In all my time shooting I've never had a stoppage due to having the mag on the ground, and I've never had an issue related to doing so.  That being said, I'm not saying all should put the mag on the ground, but it works for many.  Shooting IMO is about doing the same thing consistently and doing what works for YOU, while trying to apply marksmanship principles.
> 
> BTW three of the Queens medalist (multiple wins each) I've shot with shoot with the mag on the ground.



- FNC1: Mag off the ground.
- C7A2: Whatever works.


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## SteveB (3 Jun 2008)

I can't believe the mag on the ground/off the ground argument is still on.  It was running nicely in '92 when I first started getting serious about shooting and I guess it will never end.

I will state categorically that resting the mag on the ground will provide a steadier rest and improve your shooting.  It will have no impact on weapon reliability.  



			
				Osotogari said:
			
		

> ...but negatively affects marksmanship principles.  It can also creates a fulcrum on which the rifle pivots during breathing and follow through.  I know this first hand because this was pointed out to me early enough in my career by a sniper and Bisely competitor, and my shooting improved immensely.  That's why I pass this on to younger shooters like the individual who started this thread.



I agree that it will create a fulcrum, so should your support hand in all positions.  You can prove this to yourself by observing your site picture.  It should drop as you inhale and rise on the exhale.  Using your forearm to support the rifle just replaces metal with flesh doing the same thing and, not as well.

You are out of your lane in regards to Bisley.  If you were to walk the firing line at Bisley, you would see the vast majority of M16 FOW shooters resting the mag on the ground.  

The site picture should be unaffected by resting the mag on the ground.  One of the few nice things you can say about the C79 optic is the lack of parallax error.  You can line up well off centre and the bullets still go were the pointer is.

All this for the easiest of positions.  The much greater challenge is the kneeling.  It is here that good conditioning, flexibility and application of the HABIT principles will reap the greatest rewards.

I agree whole heartedly with the advise vis-a-vis the slow speed on the rundown, using a coach and dry firing as much as possible.  Dry firing is undoubtedly the most underused and cost effective marksmanship tool available.  

Finally, in general I don't agree with the counting of rounds so that you can change mags with the last round chambered.  In a stress situation, it is impossible to keep track of 30 rounds, though that isn't the situation in the PWT, it is poor practice to train against reality.  If the situation permits a slow tactical reload when you feel you've gotten more than half way through a mag, take it.  If not, far better to exercise the muscle memory of a rapid reload, not have to worry about failing to fully seat the mag, and disengaging the bolt catch.  For a far better and more learned discussion on reloading, search for reloading posts by Infidel-6.


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## Teeps74 (3 Jun 2008)

Because of different chest sizes, not everyone will be able to comfortably put the mag on the ground and take up a proper sight picture... Like I said, it works for some (many even), but not everyone.


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