# Victoria Cross



## rceme_rat (3 Mar 2002)

(from March 3 Ottawa Sun)

VC

The world‘s most famous medal for bravery is awarded to a select few; only a handful of its recipients are still alive 

By PAT MacADAM -- For the Ottawa Sun

Queen Victoria and her consort, Prince Albert, watched over every minute detail of minting the Victoria Cross in 1865-66. 

From the outset, the Queen‘s instructions were that the medal was to be modelled after the British Army Gold Cross of the Peninsular Wars of 1806-1814 -- but "a little smaller." 

When her civil servants proposed the medal be named the Military Order of Victoria she pencilled the suggestion out and wrote in "Victoria Cross." 

‘FOR VALOUR‘ 

When her advisers recommended the small Maltese cross be inscribed -- "For The Brave", Prince Albert pencilled in "For Valour." 

Furthermore, she decreed the gallantry award would be retroactive. Heroes of the 1864-65 Crimean War would be grandfathered. 

The original award carried an annual stipend of #10, later increased to #50, then to #150 and, finally, to #1,300 annually in the 1990s. 

Victoria kept the pressure on her bureaucrats to strike the medal and arrange the first awards ceremony. Hancocks was chosen to craft the medals and was hard pressed to hand chase, personalize and deliver the 62 Crosses required on time. The Bruton Street jeweller has handcrafted every one of the 1,354 VCs awarded. 

All of the medals were cut from the breechblocks of two 18-pounder Chinese cannons captured from the Russians at Sebastopol during the Crimean War. Because the metal was so brittle the medals could not be stamped. Each had to be hand cut and hand finished. No two medals are exactly identical. The British Defence Department has enough metal left for only 80 more Victoria Crosses. 

Once the medals were ready and a date was set -- 10 a.m., June 26, 1857 -- for the first investiture, Queen Victoria‘s interest appears to have waned. She appeared on a makeshift parade ground at Hyde Park riding sidesaddle on a horse. 

The Queen did not dismount. The 62 recipients stood at ease some distance away. She did not waste time on small talk. She pinned all 62 medals in 10 minutes -- one every 10 seconds. The Royal Navy and the Royal Marines were first to receive their medals in order of rank. The Army came last in order of regimental precedence. 

The first man to be gazetted for the Victoria Cross was Royal Navy Mate Charles Davis Lucas. A live shell, with its fuse still hissing, landed on the deck of his ship. All hands were ordered to hit the deck. Lucas picked the shell up and threw it overboard. It exploded before it hit the water. 

But Commander Henry Raby outranked Lucas and had the honour of receiving the first Victoria Cross. Lucas was lucky! Queen Victoria pinned the first VC through Commander Raby‘s tunic and then through his breast. History records he did not flinch. She did not repeat the mistake with any of the next 61. 

There were Canadian connections among the first 62 awards. Alexander Roberts Dunn, a 21-year-old lieutenant from York, Upper Canada, was the first Canadian to win a VC. He was serving with Prince Albert‘s Own Hussars during the Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava and distinguished himself in hand-to-hand combat. He was killed in a hunting accident in Abyssinia in 1868 and lay in a neglected grave in Senafe, Eritrea, until Canadian troops from CFB Gagetown, serving with a United Nations‘ peacekeeping mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea, discovered his gravesite and restored it. 

HEROISM UNDER FIRE 

Able Seaman William Hall, 30, a Nova Scotia Negro, was the first coloured recipient of a VC. He was decorated for heroism under fire at Lucknow during the Indian Mutiny on Nov. 16, 1857. His was one of 24 Victoria Crosses won on the same day. 

Campbell Mellis Douglas, a 26-year old assistant surgeon from Quebec City serving with the South Wales Borderers, was decorated for risking his life saving soldiers from his regiment who were marooned on Little Andaman Island in the Bay of Bengal in East India in 1867. 

An Irish born private, Timothy O‘Hea, serving with the British Army Rifle Brigade, won the first Victoria Cross on Canadian soil on June 9, 1866. He exhibited extreme courage extinguishing a fire in a railway car carrying a ton of ammunition in Danville, Quebec. 

At Gallipoli in 1915, six soldiers of the Lancashire Fusiliers won Victoria Crosses before breakfast. Eleven VCs were awarded at the Battle of Rorke‘s Drift in South Africa. 

The Victoria Cross is in danger of becoming extinct. Only 11 have been awarded since the end of World War II. The last VCs were awarded posthumously to two British soldiers -- Sergeant Ian McKay and Colonel "H" Jones -- in the Falkland Islands. Two members of Britain‘s elite SAS may be denied the VC for bravery in Afghanistan because of the strict rules governing the award. In one case, a superior officer did not witness the action. 

The VC has been awarded to 90 Canadians and three Americans serving with Canadian units. Three recipients -- Fred Hall, Leo Clarke and Robert Shankland -- all lived on Pine St. in Winnipeg. The City of Winnipeg renamed the street Valour Rd. 

Four sets of brothers and three father-son combinations have won Victoria Crosses. Three men have Bars to their Crosses -- two medical officers and an infantry officer. They won the VC twice. New Zealand sheep rancher Charles Upham was the only combat soldier with a Bar to his Cross. He won his first VC in Crete and a second in the Western Desert in WW II. He died in 1994. 

During the Second World War 180 Victoria Crosses were awarded. There were 32 awarded in the air but only one went to a fighter pilot. RAF pilot Eric Nicolson flew a Hurricane during the Battle of Britain and was decorated for heroism in August 1940. He was killed in action over the Bay of Bengal May 2, 1945. 

There are 500 VCs in public or regimental museums, 300 held privately and 500 unaccounted for. A private British collector has spent an estimated #10 Million assembling a collection of 100 VCs. The Canadian War Museum owns two dozen and one, a WW I award to Ottawa soldier Filip Konowal, has gone missing. 

A VC awarded to a New Zealand Liberator bomber pilot in WW II was recently sold at auction for #120,000. A First World War Cross brought #92,000 and a Boer War VC won at Rorke‘s Drift during the Zulu War realized #80,000. 

Canada does not stand alone in treating war heroes shabbily or neglecting their last resting places. British military historians estimate that at least 180 VC winners are in unknown paupers‘ graves. Two years ago, the burial place of a hero of Inkerman in the Crimean War was found in a mass grave in Portsmouth. The gravesite is now a car park. 

RESTORED GRAVESITES 

In the last 10 years alone, military historians, researchers and veterans‘ groups have found and restored the gravesites of 10 VC winners originally committed to paupers‘ graves. 

The 16th Battalion, Manitoba Regiment, (Canadian Scottish) was awarded 12 Victoria Crosses in the First World War -- double any other unit. 

Canadian Private William Johnstone, serving with the Canadian Scottish, was killed at Vimy Ridge on April 9, 1917. He was awarded a posthumous VC. He has no known grave. His name is inscribed on the Vimy Memorial. 

Canadian Scottish Col. Cyrus Wesley Peck was awarded a VC for courage at Villers-les-Cagnicourt, France, on Sept. 2, 1918. Colonel Peck is the only man in the world to win a VC while serving as an elected legislator. He was elected to the Canadian House of Commons in 1917. 

Around the world there are only 17 living recipients -- seven in England, four Gurkhas in Nepal, two Australians, two Indians, one South African and one Canadian -- "Smokey" Smith. Their average age is 84. 

Next week: "Smokey" Smith VC


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Mar 2002)

Some Additions:
The Victoria Cross. The highest order of bravery is required to win this elusive medal. Three were won by the members of the Royal Canadian Dragoons at the Battle of Leliefontein in South Africa.

Lieutenant H.Z.C. Cockburn
 Lieut. Cockburn, with a handful of men, at a most critical moment held off the Boers to allow the guns to get away; to do so he had to sacrifice himself and his party, all of whom were killed wounded, or taken prisoners, he himself being slightly wounded.

Lieutenant R. E. W. Turner 
 Later in the day when the Boers again seriously threatened to capture the guns, Lieut. Turner, although twice previously wounded, dismounted and deployed his men at close quarters and drove off the Boers, thus saving the guns. 

Sergeant E.J. Holland
 Sgt. Holland did splendid work with his Colt gun, and kept the Boers off the two 12-pounders by its fire at close range. When he saw the enemy were too near for him to escape with the carriage, he calmly lifted the gun off and galloped away with it under his arm.


----------



## IamCDN (3 Mar 2002)

Can Canadians still be awarded the Victoria Cross?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Mar 2002)

Yes, but now it‘s a completely Canadian version, minted by Canada. I believe it‘s inscribed "Pour Valour" (I think I got that right).


----------



## rceme_rat (4 Mar 2002)

It is my impression that the standard required for the award of the VC has been pushed from a high one at its inception to an almost mythological one now.

Any thoughts?


----------



## enfield (4 Mar 2002)

Smokey Smith was from my regiment, he still comes around for all the eents. His full time job now is travelling the world for VC and war events (and he wears our Glengarry and cap badge verywhere he goes. He keeps losing them in strange places, and has to get new ones all the time). 
It‘s amazing how pompous the Order of Canada looks beside the Victoria Cross. The VC is the most unassuming medal I‘ve ever seen.

Interetsing tho - Smokey was demoted something like 6 times in WW2. The vets that served with him still speak of him with awe, he was an amazing combat soldier.
 I‘ve been told he fought most of the Italian campaign for free because he was on charge for most of it, and when they were going to give him his VC in Rome he had to be locked up because he kept sneaking out the bars. He‘s regarded as a true junior ranker. 

There‘s still friction between him and the CO of the unit at that time, 60 years later. 
Smokey‘s an amazing guy, and still going strong. 

then again, all the vets are amazing.


----------



## Infanteer (4 Mar 2002)

The Canadian version of the VC is inscribed with the Latin "Pro Valore".
I think we have one of Jack Mahony‘s sitting in our Museum.  It is so plain, yet it will captivate any soldier‘s gaze.


----------



## B Walford (6 Mar 2002)

Further to the VC winners.
There are two buried in Fort MacLeod, Alta.
One is General Harvey.  His grave is not well cared for as it is in the old section of the cemetery.  About 6 grave sites from him is another vet and we believe him to be a VC winner as well.  However, since he has no headstone we can not come up with his name.  Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Gordon Angus Mackinlay (6 Mar 2002)

Mr Walford,

Go to:

 http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/default.asp 

The Victoria Cross Reference.

If you cannot find the relevent information on the site, send them a message.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney


----------



## Bigmac (3 Mar 2007)

> 'Top honour' now cast in Canada
> MURRAY CAMPBELL
> 
> From Saturday's Globe and Mail
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070302.wxcross03/BNStory/Front/home


Great news! :cdnsalute:


----------



## larry Strong (3 Mar 2007)

The only way a person will get the Canadian VC now, in my opinion will be posthumously.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (3 Mar 2007)

Top military honour now cast in Canada: report

Updated Sat. Mar. 3 2007 9:40 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A Victoria Cross medal has been produced in Canada for the first time, and there are reports it will be presented by the Queen in April.

The Globe and Mail reported Saturday that Queen Elizabeth will present the medal at a ceremony marking the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France.

The move would restore the medal -- awarded just 1,350 times since it was installed by Queen Victoria in the 1850s after the Crimean War -- to the top spot in Canada's list of military decorations.

Only 94 Canadians have received the medal.

The Victoria Cross was first awarded to a Canadian in 1856, and most recently in 1945. None of the recipients are still living.

In the past, the medals were cast by Hancock, a London jewellery retailer, but a source has told The Globe the medal has now been designed and produced in Canada for the first time.

Emmanuelle Sajous, deputy herald chancellor at Rideau Hall, said it would be at least a couple of weeks before final decisions are made about how the made-in-Canada Victoria Cross will be presented to the public.

"Nothing is confirmed," Sajous said. "We don't have any details about how and who and where and when. There are a lot of options and a lot of different events being planned."

The departments of Veterans' Affairs, Defence, Canadian Heritage and Natural Resources - along with the Royal Canadian Mint have all been involved in the design.

Military historian Jack Granatstein told The Globe the physical reinstatement of the Victoria Cross is a milestone for Canada.

"There is clearly an attachment to the VC as a pretty scarce gallantry award," said the former director-general of the Canadian War Museum.

"It will be a continuation of the past and it will be done in a Canadian context. I guess in a sense it's the capping of the Canadian honours system so I think it's a good thing."

Government sources have told The Globe the medal will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by the Queen at the Vimy Ridge ceremony in recognition of the gallantry of the Unknown Soldier, whose remains rest in a tomb next to the National War Memorial in Ottawa.

The soldier, whose body was exhumed from a cemetery near Vimy Ridge in 2000, was one of 1,603 unidentified Canadian troops who died in the First World War battle.

The battle, which took place on April 9, 1917, is often considered a key moment in Canada's military history. Roughly 10,000 Canadians were wounded and 3,598 of those succumbed to their injuries.

The ceremony in April will serve two purposes. It will commemorate the anniversary of the battle and serve as the dedication for the newly restored Canadian National Vimy Memorial.

The Royal Canadian Legion has lobbied the government for years to reinstate the medal which was put aside in 1972 in favour of a Canadian honours system.

The move to design and cast the medal in Canada should put an end to years of controversy over whether Canadian soldiers should receive an award that has British origins.

The Canadian VC is awarded for "most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

There are few differences between the Canadian and British medals. The Canadian decoration can be revoked and it bears the Latin inscription Pro Valore rather than For Valour.

The British medals are cast from bronze of Chinese origin that was used in Russian cannons captured at the conclusion of the Crimean War, but there is no word yet on what type of metal will be used to make the Canadian medals.







i thought this might be of interest to some here, i wonder who is casting it and what it will be made of, and if and when the first one will be awarded to a Canadian soldier.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (3 Mar 2007)

Sometime ago I wrote the RCL about the possible awarding of a Canadian VC to the Unknown Soldier. Seemed appropriate to me at least but the legion was adamant about not awarding any honours to the Unknown Soldier. While I respect the wishes of the Legion on this it does seem like a missed opportunity.


----------



## career_radio-checker (3 Mar 2007)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Sometime ago I wrote the RCL about the possible awarding of a Canadian VC to the Unknown Soldier. Seemed appropriate to me at least but the legion was adamant about not awarding any honours to the Unknown Soldier. While I respect the wishes of the Legion on this it does seem like a missed opportunity.



A thoughtful jester AJ but you have to think of the symbolic representation. The unknown soldier has already been 'given' an honour which could arguably surpass the significance of the VC. The unknown now rests at Canada's most important war monument and represents all the war dead of Canada. In essence he is no longer an individual, but a tangible and respectable link to all those which have lost their identity. 

Now contrast that to the nature of the VC which rewards individuals for "most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy". Key words here being _individual _ and _act_. Off the top of my head I can't think of a single instance where the VC was awarded to a unit, and I am not to comfortable with breaking that tradition and awarding the VC to all of Canada. I think it demeans the value of the VC (just my opinion). 

Now going back to the Unknown Soldier. What we celebrate with the unknown soldier is not an individual nor an individual act, but the collective deeds, of thousands of our ancestors which helped shaped this country. Gathering to remember is the highest honour (IMHO of course) we could give those soldiers. Going beyond this honour seems like an act of vanity


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (3 Mar 2007)

I respect that viewpoint but consider that the British Unknown Soldier was awarded the VC (as well as the US medal of Honor) as was the American WWI unknown soldier so there is precedence. Also, consider it an award for the unrecorded acts deserving of the VC of which there were many.

EDIT:
"Government sources have told The Globe the medal will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by the Queen at the Vimy Ridge ceremony in recognition of the gallantry of the Unknown Soldier, whose remains rest in a tomb next to the National War Memorial in Ottawa."

One of these days I'll actually read an entire article  :-[


----------



## darmil (3 Mar 2007)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070303/victoria_cross_070303/20070303?hub=Canada

Top military honour now cast in Canada: report

Updated Sat. Mar. 3 2007 9:40 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A Victoria Cross medal has been produced in Canada for the first time, and there are reports it will be presented by the Queen in April.

The Globe and Mail reported Saturday that Queen Elizabeth will present the medal at a ceremony marking the 90th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France.

The move would restore the medal -- awarded just 1,350 times since it was installed by Queen Victoria in the 1850s after the Crimean War -- to the top spot in Canada's list of military decorations.

Only 94 Canadians have received the medal.

The Victoria Cross was first awarded to a Canadian in 1856, and most recently in 1945. None of the recipients are still living.

In the past, the medals were cast by Hancock, a London jewellery retailer, but a source has told The Globe the medal has now been designed and produced in Canada for the first time.

Emmanuelle Sajous, deputy herald chancellor at Rideau Hall, said it would be at least a couple of weeks before final decisions are made about how the made-in-Canada Victoria Cross will be presented to the public.

"Nothing is confirmed," Sajous said. "We don't have any details about how and who and where and when. There are a lot of options and a lot of different events being planned."

The departments of Veterans' Affairs, Defence, Canadian Heritage and Natural Resources -- along with the Royal Canadian Mint -- have all been involved in the design.

Military historian Jack Granatstein told The Globe the physical reinstatement of the Victoria Cross is a milestone for Canada.

"There is clearly an attachment to the VC as a pretty scarce gallantry award," said the former director-general of the Canadian War Museum.

"It will be a continuation of the past and it will be done in a Canadian context. I guess in a sense it's the capping of the Canadian honours system so I think it's a good thing."

Government sources have told The Globe the medal will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by the Queen at the Vimy Ridge ceremony in recognition of the gallantry of the Unknown Soldier, whose remains rest in a tomb next to the National War Memorial in Ottawa.

The soldier, whose body was exhumed from a cemetery near Vimy Ridge in 2000, was one of 1,603 unidentified Canadian troops who died in the First World War battle.

The battle, which took place on April 9, 1917, is often considered a key moment in Canada's military history. Roughly 10,000 Canadians were wounded and 3,598 of those succumbed to their injuries.

The ceremony in April will serve two purposes. It will commemorate the anniversary of the battle and serve as the dedication for the newly restored Canadian National Vimy Memorial.

The Royal Canadian Legion has lobbied the government for years to reinstate the medal, which was put aside in 1972 in favour of a Canadian honours system.

The move to design and cast the medal in Canada should put an end to years of controversy over whether Canadian soldiers should receive an award that has British origins.

The Canadian VC is awarded for "most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice or extreme devotion to duty in the presence of the enemy."

There are few differences between the Canadian and British medals. The Canadian decoration can be revoked and it bears the Latin inscription Pro Valore rather than For Valour.

The British medals are cast from bronze of Chinese origin that was used in Russian cannons captured at the conclusion of the Crimean War, but there is no word yet on what type of metal will be used to make the Canadian medals.


----------



## HollywoodHitman (3 Mar 2007)

Interesting indeed.

Can anyone shed some light on why there would be a revocation clause with the presentation of this award?


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (4 Mar 2007)

Up to the 1920's the original could be revoked as well for "discreditable acts". This was changed by George V by Royal fiat and the 8 revoked VC were subsequently reinstated. The majority of the "discreditable acts" were theft, although there was a case of bigamy and two cases of desertion.

No idea why the Canadian version should be revokable but perhaps since the Order of Canada can be revoked (Hello Alan Eagleson and David Ahenakew) the VC needs to potentially be revokable as well.


----------



## bdog (5 Mar 2007)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> Up to the 1920's the original could be revoked as well for "discreditable acts". This was changed by George V by Royal fiat and the 8 revoked VC were subsequently reinstated. The majority of the "discreditable acts" were theft, although there was a case of bigamy and two cases of desertion.



I agree with the King that even if a man was to die for any crime (other then treason or high Treason) he should be allowed to wear the VC to the Hanging


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (5 Mar 2007)

I wonder if the presentation of this medal will open the gates to awarding some to our heros in the Afghanistan op? It certainly sounded like some of the guys who got the Star of Valour qualified.


----------



## jbeach95 (6 Mar 2007)

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/05/cross-soldier.html

*Unknown Soldier shouldn't get Victoria Cross: veterans*
Last Updated: Monday, March 5, 2007 | 10:37 PM ET
CBC News

Canada wants to honour the Unknown Soldier with the prestigious Victoria Cross medal, but veterans are opposed to the idea.

The Victoria Cross is supposed to honour the absolute highest acts of military bravery, veterans say, but there are no records about the Unknown Soldier and the type of service he provided in the First World War.

The anonymous soldier's remains were buried in a stately tomb in Ottawa in 2000 to represent all Canadians who give their life in battle.

"[The Victoria Cross] is a very special award, it has never been given lightly," Bob Butt, a spokesman for the Royal Canadian Legion, told CBC News on Monday.

The medal, created in the 1856 by Queen Victoria, has been awarded to 1,350 soldiers, including 94 Canadians. The last time it went to a Canadian was in 1945.

Federal government sources, speaking anonymously to various media outlets this week, said the government plans to revive the Victoria Cross and the first recipient will be the Unknown Soldier.

The Globe and Mail reported Saturday that the medal, with a special Canadian design, will be presented to Prime Minister Stephen Harper by Queen Elizabeth at a ceremony in France in April. Harper will bring the medal back to Canada.

But the Canadian Legion said the Unknown Soldier is supposed to represent all veterans, not singled out with such a high award.

"As veterans will tell you, he is one of us," Butt said of the Unknown Soldier. "He's one of the people that donned the uniform. [He] went over, not for glory, not for medals, not for honours and awards.

"He went to service his country, and that's the way he should be remembered."

*Decision called misguided*

The National Council of Veteran Associations in Canada agrees. The organization has written a letter to Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean urging her to stop the cross from being awarded.

Butt said the government is trying to honour veterans with this latest move, but it is misguided.

"Everybody wants to honour veterans, and sometimes the way that they honour them is not exactly the way veterans themselves want to be honoured," he said.

The Victoria Cross has sometimes been criticized as being too British an award. It was not part of the new Canadian military honour system developed in 1972.

In 1993, the Queen approved the establishment of a Canadian Victoria Cross. The Globe reported Saturday that the Canadian version, which is designed and produced in Canada, will be the one awarded to the Unknown Soldier.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (6 Mar 2007)

And so it begins  :-\

I will restrict my thoughts to this: This isn't about the veterans; the Unknown Soldier isn't meant to represent veterans.

One other thing: this is a royal prerogative; it isn't really up for discussion


----------



## Loachman (6 Mar 2007)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> This isn't about the veterans; the Unknown Soldier isn't meant to represent veterans.


It isn't? He isn't?

What is it about, then? What is he meant to represent, then?

The Legion disagrees with you. So do I.

This whole thing is wrong, wrong, wrong.


----------



## BillN (6 Mar 2007)

The UK, Australia, and I believe NZ, have all awarded the VC to their Unknown Soldiers.   This "warped" thinking of the RCL probably, in my opinion, stems from the fact that it's mainly a civilian organization these days with very few serving or veterans left in it.


----------



## the 48th regulator (6 Mar 2007)

The American Unknown Soldier from World War 1 also was bestowed a Victoria Cross from King George V

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wwi-unk.htm



> The Victoria Cross, Britain's most prized war decoration, never before placed on the breast of a man not a British subject, was next bestowed. Earl Beatty, Admiral of the Fleet, set it on the flag and saluted as he stepped back. Then General, the Earl of Cavan, representing the King of England in person, spoke briefly on the services this humble soldier had rendered not only to America but to the world there in France.



So we are in no way setting a precedence of breaking any sort of tradition.

dileas

tess


----------



## larry Strong (6 Mar 2007)

Well as a ex-serviceman and a Legion member, I always thought the Unknown soldier represented all men who went and died, from the one who took out the machine gun nest to the one who had to be pushed out of the trench to go into the attack. No medal required.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Mar 2007)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> The American Unknown Soldier from World War 1 also was bestowed a Victoria Cross from King George V
> 
> http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wwi-unk.htm
> 
> ...



In fact, that one seems to have gone both ways - according to British War Memorial Project:  "The VC has, exceptionally, been awarded to the American Unknown Soldier; *the US Medal of Honor was reciprocally awarded to the British Unknown Warrior.*"


----------



## Reccesoldier (7 Mar 2007)

The argument over if it is wanted or warranted aside what is wrong about this proposal is that the VC will be presented to the PM.

Nothing against Prime Minister Harper but this should most definitely NOT become a political photo op.  :threat: 

Our Vets and all the unknown soldiers deserve more respect than that


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (7 Mar 2007)

+1  Reccesoldier

I hadn't even considered that aspect. Ideally the Queen should be "presenting" it in Ottawa rather than at Vimy Ridge but commemorating Vimy Ridge is of course important at well. Failing that it should be the GG doing the presentation. Something simple like just laying the VC on the tomb. It is all still a matter of speculation though as there is nothing official announced. I s

The PM seems to be having second thoughts as well.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/06/victoria-cross.html


----------



## Babbling Brooks (7 Mar 2007)

Here's a quote from a VC website that, unfortunately, no longer exists:



> It is worth remembering that many servicemen who merited the Victoria Cross never received it because their actions went unnoticed, or the witnesses were killed, or whose self-sacrifice resulted in a lonely death in an unmarked grave. This is true no matter what the nationality of the person and is the reason why the tomb of a nation's unknown warrior usually has the highest gallantry decoration bestowed upon it.



Symbolically, I think awarding the Unknown Soldier a VC would recognize not only the anonymous and unidentified soldiers, but also the unheralded and unrecognized acts of bravery that occur in war when nobody's looking or nobody's left alive to testify to them.


----------



## larry Strong (7 Mar 2007)

Babbling Brooks said:
			
		

> Here's a quote from a VC website that, unfortunately, no longer exists:
> 
> Symbolically, I think awarding the Unknown Soldier a VC would recognize not only the anonymous and unidentified soldiers, but also the unheralded and unrecognized acts of bravery that occur in war when nobodies looking, or no ones left alive to testify to them.



Thanks for that, I had not thought of it in that fashion.


----------



## Reccesoldier (7 Mar 2007)

From DH&R's own website:


> *ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA*
> 
> A person is eligible to be awarded a Military Valour Decoration *if that person, on or after January 1, 1993* is:
> 
> ...



Emphasis: mine

So strictly speaking (and tongue planted firmly in cheek) the Unknown soldier doesn't meet the criteria.


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Mar 2007)

> The Victoria Cross shall be awarded for the most conspicuous bravery, a daring or pre-eminent act of valour or self-sacrifice  or extreme devotion to duty, in the presence of the enemy.



He sacrificed his life and identity,  that should fall under the highlighted portions, no?

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Mar 2007)

I'm actually quite unperturbed whether of not the first [Canadian] VC is ceremonially awarded to the Unknown Soldier.  On one hand precedents have been set by other nations for the awards of "highest honours' to the Unknowns.  On the other, and with regard to the detractors of this proposal, it does make me wonder how exactly the award is diminished if this is done?  Does it lessen the honour paid to a living soldier afterwards?  What occurs that would materially lessen the credibility of the Victoria Cross?


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO (7 Mar 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I'm actually quite unperturbed whether of not the first [Canadian] VC is ceremonially awarded to the Unknown Soldier.  On one hand precedents have been set by other nations for the awards of "highest honours' to the Unknowns.  On the other, and with regard to the detractors of this proposal, it does make me wonder how exactly the award is diminished if this is done?  Does it lessen the honour paid to a living soldier afterwards?  What occurs that would materially lessen the credibility of the Victoria Cross?



I agree Michael. As long as we stick to a strict criteria for awarding this medal for those who follow we will be fine. No one  is going to say "Oh this doesn't mean anything because some unknown dude got it."


----------



## Blackadder1916 (7 Mar 2007)

I've been following this thread with some interest as mention is made to precedent, legal criteria for award, and whether it is right and fitting for the VC to be presented by Her Majesty to the PM during a commemorative ceremony at Vimy Ridge.

Precedent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross


> A total of *1,356 Victoria Crosses * have been awarded since 1856. This figure is made up of *1,352 people * who have earned the VC, plus *three bars* (awarded to people who receive the decoration a second time), and *one award in 1921 to the American Unknown Soldier of the First World War*. (The British Unknown Warrior was reciprocally awarded the US Medal of Honor.)


 The British and US governments awarded their respective highest decoration to the Unknown of the other country at about the same time (within a couple of weeks of the other).  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unknown_Warrior   
http://www.westminster-abbey.org/library/burial/warrior.htm

I have found no reference to any Commonwealth country awarding the VC to their own Unknown Soldier.

Criteria for Award
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=1


> A person is eligible to be awarded a Military Valour Decoration if that person, *on or after January 1, 1993 is:
> a member of the Canadian Forces*


I make the assumption that the individual resting in our Tomb of the The Unknown, suitably meets the other criteria for award because he gave the ultimate sacrifice, however for the award of the (Canadian) VC, the Letters Patent authorizing it would have to be amended before it could be legally awarded.  

Is it right and fitting?
It would be fitting to award our Unknown with the highest ranking decoration.  It does not diminish the importance of the Victoria Cross.  Nor does it diminish the contribution made by those who gave their all; or those who served faithfully and survived but, like so many, were not recognized.  In fact, it should have been done when he was entombed in Ottawa, with the VC placed in his tomb with him.

My only objection would be the manner of presentation that is being proposed.  Yes, The Queen should make the presentation.  She is the font of all Canadian honours and this is the highest honour for valour that we can give.  It should not necessarily be at Vimy, perhaps it should be at the actual Tomb of the individual choosen to represent all who fell (wherever that may be on land or at sea) and now rest with no known grave.  It should definitely not be presented to the Prime Minister.  It smacks too much of a political photo op.  If it is to be presented overseas and returned to Canada, it would be much more appropriate that the presentation be made to a delegation which, for example, could be comprised of one of the following groups:

a.  the surviving WW1 veterans;
b.  spouses or children of WW1 veterans who did not return and now lie 'Known But To God';
c.  the youngest and most junior serving members in the CF (it would represent the type of people who served and fell in the greatest number).

If need be The Commander-in-Chief of Canada could accept the decoration and return it to Ottawa for presentation at the Tomb.  

The Prime Minister, if he attends the ceremony, should act as a representative of politicians; politicians of whatever stripe and nationality, those who seek to use political power for either good, bad or their own desires.  As a representative politician during a ceremony honouring those who made the ultimate sacrifice for their country, he should stand in the background.  Those who have served or the surviving family of those who have served may walk by him, shaking his hand or throwing dog-poo on his shoes from a distance of 10 feet as they may desire.


----------



## armyvern (7 Mar 2007)

Reproduced under the fairdealings provisions of the copyright act:

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/189029



> Vets irate at Victoria Cross proposal
> TheStar.com - News - Vets irate at Victoria Cross proposal
> Fight PM's plan to bestow valour medal on Unknown Soldier killed during WWI
> 
> ...



Emphasis above is mine. I think that's it's quite important to note that despite the precedence set in awarding the VC to the 'Unknown Soldiers' of other nations, that the working groups responsible for the repatriation of our Canadian Unknown did so based on the agreement that *no *honour would be bestowed upon him and that he would remain the common soldier, one who represents all of our fallen.

If that's the case, why the debate?? It would seem to me that the decision not to bestow any honours upon him was made in good faith several years ago to those Veterans.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (8 Mar 2007)

i understand both sides of this fight. I think the unnamed soldier should get the award to show the valour and duty of all soldiers in WW1 but at the same time I see the side of the fight that says no because awarding a metal just because they can award it is wrong, and may or may not take away the value of a soldier who was awarded or could be awarded the metal for valour and duty on his own actions, not the actions of a whole group of men or an entire army over the period of many years.
I think the unknow soldier has gotten the highest award a soldier can expect and be given, he is buried in the middle of the Nation's capital, as the base of the National Memorial and got a better a funeral service then anyone of his friends  got over in Europe during the war. 
My grandfather was a pilot and navigator during the Second World War  has various Honours to his name and was a career officer after the war and was awarded various UN awards during his  years of service and before he died all he said he wanted was a plain box because that was more then most of his friends got when they were buried in Burma, India and other places during the war. 
Save this award for a soldier who truly earned it.


----------

