# 60 Failures out of 129 candidates failed PT test



## machine463

Yes that right, out of 2 platoons last weeks 60 candidates failed the PT test
So RFT will be busy coming up in the few weeks
To the future member which want to joined in, make sure you prepare yourself correctly coming down
Don't forget you will be representing the Canadian Forces and the our physical standard is not that hard to achieved (Which I think should be higher at least the same then RCMP)
So my 2 cents if you weight a lot a cannot run for 6 minutes and can't do 19 proper push ups stay home another 6 months before joining
Good night


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## Franko

machine463 said:
			
		

> Yes that right, out of 2 platoons last weeks 60 candidates failed the PT test
> So RFT will be busy coming up in the few weeks
> To the future member which want to joined in, make sure you prepare yourself correctly coming down
> Don't forget you will be representing the Canadian Forces and the our physical standard is not that hard to achieved (Which I think should be higher at least the same then RCMP)
> So my 2 cents if you weight a lot a cannot run for 6 minutes and can't do 19 proper push ups stay home another 6 months before joining
> Good night



Hmmm....blank profile and a rant. 

Nice.         :

I guess you'll be earning your pay in the RFT in the next few weeks.

Regards


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## navymich

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Hmmm....blank profile and a rant.
> 
> Nice.         :
> 
> I guess you'll be earning your pay in the RFT in the next few weeks.
> 
> Regards



Going by his other posts, he seems to be big on the rant thing.  Although this one states he is the instructor on RFT.  Maybe it's just me and my doubtfulness, but his posts seem to all be written more as a student that has gotten in heck a few too many times instead of an instructor that might have constructive criticism for future candidates. 



			
				machine463 said:
			
		

> RFT does not affect nothing what so ever in your carreer progression.  I am a instructor on RFT, the only thing it does it get you ready physically, mentally and prepare you very good for the BMQ/IAP.  There is no BOTP candidate on RFT anymore.  If you got question fell free to ask


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## 284_226

airmich said:
			
		

> Going by his other posts, he seems to be big on the rant thing.  Although this one states he is the instructor on RFT.  Maybe it's just me and my doubtfulness, but his posts seem to all be written more as a student that has gotten in heck a few too many times instead of an instructor that might have constructive criticism for future candidates.



I didn't see any rants in his other two posts, but I would hazard a guess that his first language is French.


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## medaid

Well it's definitely not HOW he is saying it, rather WHAT he is saying. The message conveys a sort of self-arrogance and righteousness that is often seen with candidates, rather then experienced staff.


Just my 0.02 rupees.


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## machine463

I am not bitching but telling the truth, look like that the people getting now are even worst physical shape than ever
Yes I'm a Frenchmen and yes I am an instructor in St-Jean for more than 3 years now
In 3 Years those are the worst number that as seen so far
My thing is the Forces are getting deployed more and more but people are getting in terrible shape what do they expect ?
Have a good one


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## GAP

Why is everybody on machine463's case? There's so much focus on the how and why he said, than on the message. That's an awfully large amount of an intake to not be able to pass the test.

I noticed before it changed that there was much angst among people applying if they would pass the test, and it sounded like they were working at it. Now, however and with the exception of some, you would think they did away with the test.


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## Sub_Guy

So almost half failed.  Without a doubt that is awful, but those who failed have done nothing but make the course more difficult for themselves.  I think it will be a good test of character to see how many of those 60 are there on graduation day.  We will find out how much they want this, true they showed up in basic unprepared, but now its all on them to turn it around.
Hopefully machine463 can play a positive role in turning these marshmallows into fine Canadian soldiers.


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## armyvern

I have no problem with machine463's post at all when reading it and realizing that English is not his mother-tongue.

The same thing would probably be mistaken for a post I made ... in the franco-forums. If I can only speak the language a little ... I can ONLY say it the best way I know HOW. Come on people. You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

He's said nothing that an instructor WOULD NOT recommend ... 

As to his post, yep ... our recruits are indeed a reflection of Canadian society and overall physical health these days. What with a 45 minute "gym class" actually occuring 2 times per week in my son's high school.  :  (Oh ... and one of those "gym classes" is actually 45 minutes of "health class" -- sitting on his ass in the classroom.  :-\

It doesn't surprise me to see statistics like this -- it has become the norm & acceptable to be a lazy fuktard. There's a whole generation of them out there. Thankfully though, there are some who are exceptions to this. You'd think anyone joining the Military would be old enough & wise enough to realize that they need to get off their ass and do something about their level of fitness BEFORE reporting for Basic Trg ... but some aren't. They end up on RFT -- exactly where they deserve to be & should be -- and they have no one to blame for it but themselves.


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## karl28

machine463  

           I think  you are  correct the level of fitness is not good in most new recruits . I was on BMQ 0146 in Wainright Alberta and I screwed up my knee running the staff out there was trying there own RFT program to help us stay with the course witch was great because there was 12 of us  including my self that failed the run part of the PT test .   I was still way to over weight ( 295 pounds at that time )  to be trying . I  should of stayed home a bit longer and focused more on the running and losing weight .    I tried for two months at St Jean to heal up but the rules where changed on how long you could stay in PAT while injured  due to high numbers that where in there .
           Right now my Knee is healing up pretty good I will be getting the MRI scans back this week to see how its doing but the knee feels 10x better almost perfect I have gotten my weight down from  325 pounds Sept 2006 to 260 that is today   Hopefully with some more hard work in the running and losing more weight  I will be able to reapply some time next Sept .   But to help the Canadian Forces and future recruits I personally think through my own experience the CF express  test should be brought back to the recruiting stage  it would be better for every one involved . It may mean that some of us take a bit longer in getting in to the Canadian Forces but at least you will be better prepared and be able to finish those 13 weeks of basic  and get a great career in the Canadian Forces .


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## geo

Karl & all...
Yeah, it is a tough haul to bring yourself up to scratch.
In the past, people would show up at the recruiting centre, fail the PT test, get told to go home - get fit and to then come back..... I would fathom a guess that 75% + of those sent away never come back.  They are in the predicament because of their environment, nutrition and lack of motivation.  In the end, the CF ends up on the short end of the stick because the flow of recruits is inadequate for the needs of the CF.

So we take those moderately overweight (surprised by the 295 Lbs though) give them some instruction in nutrition with massive doses of physical conditioning.  These recruits are paid while they get fit.... so what... out of all those previously turned away, we have been enrolling and training more recruits than has been seen in 30-40 years.

We have no choice - a lot of people are near retirement age & the Afghan mission results in a lot of people bailing before AND after deployment ... so unless we want to have a smaller / older military, I don't see any aternative solution

Do you?


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## GAP

What about a nonjudgmental physical test prior to joining to give people a sense of what they are in for and what they have to achieve prior to being signed up. Probably not feasible, but a lot are going in all starry eyed about being a Canadian ninja sniper and forgetting that the ninja sniper had to run to get to the high ground....etc, etc...


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## karl28

geo  

        I completely understand your point on numbers and how important it is to get those number to help keep our current operation level and also agree that there may not be an alternative position to this problem at least one that I cant think of .  I just believe that the old CF Express test During the Recruiting Phase  would save the Canadian Forces money  and save recruits from any possible injuries that may come up from being over weight .       I can understand that  my old weight of 295 pounds surprised you but  I wasn't the only one  we are getting through the system I don't know how but it does happen  .  I myself  also have height on my side I am 6'3"  but still my weight at the time was really bad I thought cause I dropped from 325 I could handle the running part  .        I think if a  possible recruit wants  the Canadian Forces bad enough like my self you due what you have to get in.  Also like you said the diet is big part of losing weight and that was the hardest thing for me to learn but have learned and now being 260 my goal is to get to 240 an have my knee healed up before I reapply hopefully next Sept here is hoping .  Hope that you have a great day work cheers Geo


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## HItorMiss

Though I disagree with the RFT programs existence, and believe we should not be recruiting those people who cannot already pass the fitness standard. What I can say is that with a properly motivated recruit that program works and works well. They do PT 2-3 times a day as well course lectures that allow them to move beyond week 0 and integrate into a course weeks 1-3 and the steady use of stress and pressure combines with the increase physical work outs seems to cut those not as dedicated to the CF as they thought they were.

I might not like why the system is there but I do like how it is run and the results it achieves.


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## karl28

GAP 

     I could due that test but  I did it once as you know your self during basic you due it almost every day through morning PT  .  I am most definitely not pointing  blame at any one  my injury happened cause I was over weight plain and simple .  I was just pointing out that there should be a  Full PT test  done at your local recruiting center before you go I think it would save allot  time for both the CF and future recruits it is possible to lose weight before you go to Basic and that will make your time there a heck of allot easier .
          I also never had aspects of being a ninja sniper ,  My goal was to be a soldier plain and simple nothing fancy I just wanted to serve and in time I still  may be able to do that just going to take a bit longer no bigy  cheers man have a great day .


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## geo

All good points Karl & GAP,
I don't see an alternate solution... neither did the US military.  Our recruits reflect Canadian society & the population as a whole is going the way of the "pilsbury" doughboy.... (don't poke).
Would the CF Express test save the CF money... sure - we wouldn't have the warrior platoons - but then again, our recruiting system would atrophy again... and we don't want to go that route.


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## GAP

I was not commenting on you in particular karl28. I was commenting on the posts from the recruiting forum that I constantly read, and they "just don't get it.....you get physical!!"


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## GAP

geo said:
			
		

> All good points Karl & GAP,
> I don't see an alternate solution... neither did the US military.  Our recruits reflect Canadian society & the population as a whole is going the way of the "Pillsbury" doughboy.... (don't poke).
> Would the CF Express test save the CF money... sure - we wouldn't have the warrior platoons - but then again, our recruiting system would atrophy again... and we don't want to go that route.



+1 on the doughboy comment.

 Even 35+ years ago when all the US forces were taking anybody that walked, talked(sorta), and was able to breathe, we still only lost about 3-4 per intake(for inability to complete PT- they went to the PAT platoon and were inserted into another rotation) in boot camp for the Marines. There's a lot of reasons for this and that, but I do remember, as scared as we were, there was no way we were going to let the Drill Instructor know we couldn't hack it. By the same token, the Drill Instructors did help some during our down time on the drill and proper push up technique. It wasn't all yelling and cussing', just when we got together for a big Ooorah fun time!!   (only 10 - 12 hrs of the 16 hour day- the DI's had to eat too!)


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## tomahawk6

PT was an integral part of basic when I went through in 72. I joined at the tail end of the draft and there was no such thing as releasing a trainee due to poor fitness. You either ran or marched everywhere. Mistakes resulted in pushups. If a trainee wasnt cutting it he was sent to the special company that was surrounded by a fence topped with barbed wire, sort of like a prison, where trainee's received pretty harsh treatment, as soon as a man met the standards he was integrated into a training company. Others were simply recycled where they got to do much of basic over. No one was allowed to quit.Guys that held the platoon back due to poor performance received a blanket party.

Today there are stress cards,minimal drill and ceremony and soldiers can quit. Basic training for the non-combat arms has really been watered down.Now it looks like the Army wants to extend basic to 10 weeks. The Army isnt a stress free environment and the more pressure we put on a recruit the faster he will toughen up. I am old fashioned enough to want to hold a recruit to his contract. If he signed up for 3 years then thats what he must do. In our society today its way too easy to quit but we dont do anyone any good by letting them quit.

If a recruit cant pass a PT test then he should get remedial PT until he/she can pass the test. If they are physically unable to pass a PT test then there was a failure in the recruiting process.


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## geo

good points T6.
The "pens" won't fly anymore - fat prisons?... Ooooh though I "love" the thought of it - can't have that no more

Holding people to their contract?... yikes - what a novel thought! Way too easy for people to make excuses and "bail".


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## GAP

T6 good comments. I believe if I remember correctly, we knew we had basic, knew it involved PT, but there were few that had to train to pass the normal requirements. We were in generally good shape, and needed conditioning and toning, but the general state of the young guys going in was pretty good.

As for quiting, that did not enter the equation!! Yeah, we had the fat farm with the barbed wire fences, etc. and NOBODY wanted to go there. Everyday was spotted with remedial PT because of this or that, but you could always count on having it.


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## geo

T6, GAP & all, 
Let us all remember that, since the 70s, society has been bombarded with fast food (fat food), we've been maximized, theatres have made their seats wider & airlines have toyed with the idea of charging overweight people the price of two seats, those people who occupy more than one seat. (fat groups have petitioned - saying it is a medical dissability  )

Society as a whole will have to address the lousy physical condition of it's kids, turn off the TV, Nintendo & game cubes


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## toughenough

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the American's run morning PT at their recruiting centers to help people work up to basic? I think that this would go a long way to show the future recruits what will be expected of them, and how they can get from their current fitness level to their desired fitness level.


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## geo

Morning PT at the recruiting centres?
Hadn't heard of it & not sure how easy it would be to manage.
Had not heard of the US conducting such a thing.... how are they doing?


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## Bert

machine463 said:
			
		

> Yes that right, out of 2 platoons last weeks 60 candidates failed the PT test
> So RFT will be busy coming up in the few weeks...



Theres alot of information in various media about life in the Forces, basic training, and
whats expected of recruits.  More accessible information than there ever was.  The 
fitness self-test is right in the application package and provides a decent assessment 
if used you would think. 

Not to get to involved in details, but the original post provides a amazing detail.  Sixty
recruits in two platoons failed the PT test.  Assuming a recruit platoon (when I went
through was about sixty members), thats a 50% failure per-centage give or take.  It would
be interesting to know why they failed.  Is this normal pass/fail for recruit platoons or an 
anomaly for that week?


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## geo

if you weight a lot a cannot run for 6 minutes and can't do 19 proper push ups stay home another 6 months before joining

would imagine that the failures would "run" the range of failing to:
Shuttle Run thru to level 6
Pushups
Situps
Griptest


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## karl28

GAP  

     Sorry if I took  the earlier post about the ninja sniper thing the wrong way .  I just wanted to make sure that you knew that I wasn't one of those people  .


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## karl28

Geo  

     Here is a thought  about RFT . Why not make all recruits go through this before starting basic ?  I wonder if that would help the situation and prevent such high failure rates on the PT test that was stated in the original post of this topic . I also agree with you guys on society getting  larger its not a good thing for sure .


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## ixium

I don't know about some people...but I'd love to have a month of a solid, well made, COMPLETE exercise program that has constant motivators and assistance. 

And if the number of yearly recruits hasn't been meeting the needs of the CF, it's more likely to spend money on getting TV ads and radio ads and new promotional videos etc. The money they save from not doing RTF is going to be spent on getting recruitment numbers up to an acceptable level since they narrowed their playing field.


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## geo

ixium
at present, the recruit school is jammed full.  We have evicted all other training from the recruit school facilities (moved em to the old Collège Militaire Royal campus).  We have also begun recruit courses in all sorts of places where they aren't supposed to be run from....

Don't think we are having a problem of meeting our needs.  The ones that are enrolled just need a bit of work to get em up to snuff.


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## NavComm

60 failures out of 129 is pretty high. I have had my ups and downs with the expres test starting with when I first applied. I was doing the push ups wrong and failed. The tester at the recruiting center showed me the correct push ups. I came back a few weeks later and passed the test with 19 push ups, I don't remember how many the minimum for my age is. Then off I went to bmq a few months later. There we did the test again and I failed the push ups. I half-assed practiced them and on the retest I failed, was sent home with 8 other people from 6 different platoons who also failed the retest.

Once back at my unit, I was helped out by a Master Seaman and I worked my ass off to make sure I never failed that test again. Since then I have completed 13 weeks bmq and achieved the incentives in the expres test the first time around. I've done the expres test again in June as was a requirement for my promotion and passed it again with no problems.

My unit is doing 1 hour of pt on every training Tuesday and the small gym that we have is available to members any time. Physical fitness is a personal commitment a member makes to him/herself and to the CF. Anyone who is not willing to maintain that "fighting fit" level is potentially a danger to themselves and their platoon/ship mates.

I am a very active person but not the type who likes to go to the gym. I like biking and swimming and walking but to do the expres test I have to take it up a few notches - ie: do pushups and run 3 or 4 times a week.  I just signed up for one of those fitness bootcamps just to get myself moving and to build strength and endurance.

I understand they don't rtu people who fail the test at bmq anymore, but in retrospect I think it was a good decision. It forced me to either put up or shut up. I had the choice of releasing or training hard and I decided to train hard. It paid off and my advice to anyone joining is to get in shape. You don't have to be Mr. Universe. You should be able to comfortably run for 5 - 10 km on all sorts of terrain and if they want you to do 7 or 9 or 19 push ups...make sure you can do at least double that many before you sign on the dotted line....and don't forget that grip test - a few people failed on that too. I've never heard of anyone failing the sit ups, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened...anyway that's just my .02


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## HItorMiss

All good stuff NavComm but to be clear you cannot RTU a RegF candidate as they have no unit to be RTU'd to.... So in essance it's a make a break pass or back to civi life. Thye can't go back to any mwhere and have the Master Seaman help them as they have no Master Seaman. Hence RFT.


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## ixium

Aye geo, but l'm refering to the past couple of years. And how many of them might have failed the pushup or pull-up part of the test by one? Since you can still continue(from what l've read on this site from the stickies etc) if you pass your beep test.

NavComm, you failed the retest at BMQ and were sent home. You trained with a Master Seaman who no doubtably gave you quiet a bit of advice and support. And then went back. I don't know the timeline, but it seems like you spent time and money because you couldn't do the test. Mind you, it might not have be equal to the amount they are spending now, but there was still a cost to the CF. Upping that cost by a little more and they could do whole fitness platoons and increase their recruit numbers.


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## TCBF

Whenever they cut Recruit Training in the past, we all said it was a bad idea in part because to train to the same standard in fewer weeks would result in more injuries (some permanent) and more recourses and releases.

I put over 500 recruits thriough Cornwallis and 250 through St-Jean.  Most recruits find it very demoralizing to become injured and removed from their platoon (think "Develpment of Primary Groups") and recoursed or placed in some PAT platoon purgatory.  It is a good way to destroy the will of a potentially good soldier.

It was all very wastefull in terms of money and people, and it was a bloody shame.

Release for pre-existing medical deficiencies or personality disorders are one thing (and we should do more of those!), but - generally speaking - poor fitness can be solved during initial training.


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## NavComm

ixium said:
			
		

> Aye geo, but l'm refering to the past couple of years. And how many of them might have failed the pushup or pull-up part of the test by one? Since you can still continue(from what l've read on this site from the stickies etc) if you pass your beep test.
> 
> NavComm, you failed the retest at BMQ and were sent home. You trained with a Master Seaman who no doubtably gave you quiet a bit of advice and support. And then went back. I don't know the timeline, but it seems like you spent time and money because you couldn't do the test. Mind you, it might not have be equal to the amount they are spending now, but there was still a cost to the CF. Upping that cost by a little more and they could do whole fitness platoons and increase their recruit numbers.


 In my case I only met with the MS about 3 times on training days so I did a lot on my own. But those 3 sessions got me into a routine that built my strength up and it paid off for the longer 3 mo. winter bmq that I did. If I had done all that before I went to the 8 week summer bmq  it would have saved a lot of money for sure. All together I did 17 weeks of basic training.

Also, I know that when I was in my 20's I had a pretty high fitness level and wouldn't have found the test very challenging - in my  40's it was a little tougher and I needed to accept that I had not trained hard enough. What surprises me is how many of the young people in bmq are not fit at all. They can't even run, how did they pass the initial test? Basis isn't supposed to be like a fat farm, you're supposed to be fit before you get there.



			
				HitorMiss said:
			
		

> All good stuff NavComm but to be clear you cannot RTU a RegF candidate as they have no unit to be RTU'd to.... So in essance it's a make a break pass or back to civi life. Thye can't go back to any mwhere and have the Master Seaman help them as they have no Master Seaman. Hence RFT.



Yes I know that the reg force don't have units to go back to and that is why they go on remedial training. It's much more intense I'm sure. If it works, great. But what about when it doesn't? Have we spent a lot of money on people who weren't up to the minimum level of fitness when they joined up, or how did they get through recruiting? From the time I did my initial fitness test at recruiting to when I went to bmq was 5 months, is that the same for reg force?


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## machine463

Look like a lot of people answer my little points I made yesterday
Against sorry if my english is not a perfect a some other but it is good for me
Now one thing for sure don't thing I am here to bring down the RFT program, that program work
I saw candidate lost over 70 pounds over 90 days, now is it for anybody NO be ready nothing easy in RFT
Go up and down 12 floor about minimum of 8 times a days
Weight training in morning for 2 X 40 min
Cardio 1 X 40 Min 
ABS work out 1 X 40 min 
On the top of that you can count inspection, military lecture in classes, drill lecture, nutrition classes, PSP lecture and forced marched
Nothing to scare you off but for sure after one month on RFT you a long way ahead of any candidate in week one
In all the other post somebody mentioned something about keeping somebody in until he/she is fit to pass PT test
I thing 90 days is good enough, if after that you still cannot do the minimum standard you it will be now your own responsibility to trained ( Use all the tool you learn while on RFT )

Thank for not hammering me too much on my english and on my post

Have a good one


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## Kyu

It's probably a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway.

If a candidate barely pass the expres test, (like barely got level 6, 19 push ups and 19 set ups) can a candidate ask to be put on RFT to get better?

P.S. I know that reserves don't do Regular Forces BMQ, so whatever the answer is, it won't apply to me.


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## SoF

I'm not going lie; I saw this coming when they removed the express test from the recruiting process. Too many people showing up at basic in extremely poor physical condition. It's not Camp Snoopy; it's the military. Being physically fit is part of your job; regardless of trade, age, or gender. It all comes down to motivation. Those who are not motivated will meet the minimum physical requirments at the most just to get through basic; then after bmq they will return to the same shape they were in before joining the military. Enough said.


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## geo

Kyu said:
			
		

> If a candidate barely pass the expres test, (like barely got level 6, 19 push ups and 19 set ups) can a candidate ask to be put on RFT to get better?


the short answer..... NO!
bessides, you will get plenty of PT throughout the course.  You'll get better at the same pace as everyone else.
RFT is to help people meet the minimum - it's not meant to be a free ride.


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## machine463

Geo
Thank for the easy answer for the other question on the top

If lot of you people is wondering is the program work, yes it does normally after one month of training almost 95% of the candidates actually do pass there VO2 max and I seen candidates go from level 4 or 5 up to level 9 even 9.5
Lot of them stay longer to work on there push up which lot of it in technique and a lot of time a lack of ABS
Like I said in the pass RFT is not a free ride it is actually harder than BMQ because of all the physical training 4 X 40 min a day + Drill + Forced Marched + Stair (7 Times up and down 12 Floor) all that 5 time a week


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## geo

SoF
Recruits with poor motivation reflect the society they grew up in.
They have poor eating habbits because they don't know any better AND their parents probably didn't either.  
Fixing their eating habbits, showing them what is OK & what isn't goes a long way to addressing the problem.
WRT the actual PT, as Vern pointed out, in highschool, the average kid gets one class of physical (in)activity per week.  How is that supposed to motivate them to drop the PSP/XBox/WEII TV / DVD / PC Chat.
Some people will revert back to what they were prior to enrollment BUT, most won't.
Although it is an inconvenience to bring em up to minimum basic PRIOR to starting their Basic, I think we are ahead in the recruiting process.


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## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> How is that supposed to motivate them to drop the PSP/XBox/WEII TV / DVD / PC Chat.



.....or army.ca    ;D


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## geo

Doh!


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## scoobydoo

I was at bmq in st jean for a month I  passed everything but my situps.. I weigh 250 pounds.. but I chose to VR for the reasons being that I have seen a lot people getting hurt . I felt that it would be in my best interest to come home and lose more weight then re apply to reduce any chances of me hurting myself.. If I could give some advice to the new recruits make sure that your are in the best shape that you can be.

While I was at St Jean the instructors told me that the testing will go back to the recruiting center and RFT will not be there.. so to make sure that i can do my situps when I come back.


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## machine463

There is nothing in the air so far which tell us that RFT will be stop.  Today after one month of training for 25 candidates, everybody except 2 pass their VO2 max and 9 of the 26 pass the complete PT test.  So not bad result at all


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## aesop081

machine463 said:
			
		

> and 9 of the 26 pass the complete PT test.  So not bad result at all



After all that PT, only 9 of the group can pass the complete test ?

You call that "not bad" !!!!!!


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## machine463

obviously you never seen those candidates in which physical state they were when they came.  We trained them but one thing for sure we do not do miracle.  I think when you weight in 360 pound, 7 foot tall and in one months almost improve 3 level on the shuttle run that is pretty good result


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## aesop081

machine463 said:
			
		

> obviously you never seen those candidates in which physical state they were when they came.  We trained them but one thing for sure we do not do miracle.  I think when you weight in 360 pound, 7 foot tall and in one months almost improve 3 level on the shuttle run that is pretty good result



Ok well thanks for putting things into perspective.  But i have to ask myself, if they showed up at the CFRC in that kind of physical shape.....what were they thinking ?


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## Bograt

I haven't read the entire thread so please excuse if it has been mentioned previously. I know from my past experience OJT'ing at an CFRC that the Fitness tests results (primarily for push ups and sit ups not for step test) were waived for new applicants. It was part of a strategy to  have applicants processed within 1 week of receiving their completed files.

The thought was recruits would get 'remedial' PT training in St. Jean. If a candidate was unable to meet standard after the remedial training they would be released. If I recall, this change was a directive from NDHQ. These numbers should surprise no one. After the drug and background check, PT was the biggest cause of applicant 'failure' at the recruiting centres.


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## geo

Bogart

Welcome

Read the thread


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## slowmode

How about instead of pointing out the  ones who failied you go and help them achieve their goal. Thats what the CF is all about, pushing your self and training for it.


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## aesop081

slowmode said:
			
		

> How about instead of pointing out the  ones who failied you go and help them achieve their goal. Thats what the CF is all about, pushing your self and training for it.



Some people show up less than motivated and no amount of help will get those people through.  Some people are like that because they have no concept of what they have signed up for.  You may think its a lofty goald to help people through it until they pass but ask yourself this : how much resource are you willing to invest in a person who was not willing to invest his/her own time to get ready for what they volunteered for ? The CF is about defending Canadians....not running a weight loss camp for kids who "always wanted to be sniper"


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## slowmode

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Some people show up less than motivated and no amount of help will get those people through.  Some people are like that because they have no concept of what they have signed up for.  You may think its a lofty goald to help people through it until they pass but ask yourself this : how much resource are you willing to invest in a person who was not willing to invest his/her own time to get ready for what they volunteered for ? The CF is about defending Canadians....not running a weight loss camp for kids who "always wanted to be sniper"


   You have a very good points their CDN Aviator. Thats true, many people sign up not knowing what their getting them selves into, they expect it to be easy. But you pose a good question, how much resources am I willing to invest to get people ready for what they volunteered for. Honestly, Not much, It should be the responsability of those whom sign up to look at the requirements to join and see if they have the physical fitness to. 

  I completly agree with you saying the CDN Forces is not running a weight loss camp, but you have to remember, everyone can get better, you dont have to help train them but just motivate them into training. Say My brother failed, I would motivate him into training to get better for the re-test. But I see where your coming from CDN , you pose very good points. What I have noticed is the lack of PT has gone down, In bmq we never ran past 5k.


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## Pea

As some of you know, I took part in the RFT program. When I arrived in St. Jean I ran a 3.5 on the beep test, did 30 sit-ups and one pushup. I know, pretty sad results. PT was definitely my weakness. So I was sent to RFT.

When I did my test to leave RFT I ran a 5 on the beep test, did 10 pushups, and approximately 34 sit-ups. Not amazing results, but something I was proud to achieve through hard work. I can also attest that the RFT program is no cake walk. I am now on Grad week in the Mega, and I can say without a doubt that some of my "worst" most challenging weeks here were spent on RFT. I was always being pushed beyond my max there. Which is exactly what I needed.

Three weeks ago I had my final PT test for my course. I ran a level 7 on the beep test, did 20 pushups, and 36 sit-ups. That is well above exempt for a female in the CF. (and above the minimum male standard for those who complain about the female standard being too low) I'm damn proud of my accomplishments, and know that it took a heck of a lot of hard work to get to where I am now.

I definitely agree that I should have been "in shape" before I arrived at the Mega, and I would have graduated 2 months ago if I had been. However, I am very grateful that the CF gave me a chance to improve my weakness so that I could show them how bad I want to do this job. I know many don't agree with the program, but I know personally how great it can be. Like I tell a lot of people around the Mega that make fun of the people on RFT "You can fix un-fit, but you can't fix stupid. Why do we give multiple recourses to people who fail PO checks, but we think we should throw people out on their butts after one PT failure?"..... Food for thought.

Just a few thoughts from a very proud Recruit who will be on her graduation parade this Thursday. Thank you RFT for giving me a chance at this awesome career.


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## tomahawk6

Well done Pvt Pea. Motivation is the key to success and you certainly have that in spades.


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## armyvern

Pea,

You worked your ass off to get where you are today. You can thank RFT ... but you had to have it in you too. RFT won't fix the unfit who are unmotivated, lacking in initiative, or just plain lazy (they may fall into your "stupid" category!!).

RFT is only an aid -- an aid which helps the deserving and the motivated accomplish what you have.

Good on you. Have an awesome Grad parade -- you deserve it & you've earned it.

Vern


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## Jorkapp

I was in a similar boat as Pea here. (In fact, I was on RFT with her)

Being ROTP in Civ U, I basically forgot about physical fitness after IAP. I ate lots of pizza, drank lots of beer, and just about never hit the gym. 

Then, along came BOTP. I failed the initial test on push-ups, so I was allowed to continue training. After 6 weeks of relatively easy PT, along came another PT test, which I failed, but was close. A few phone calls and a PRB later, I was put on RFT for 9 days.

RFT was very challenging for some, but is doable for a motivated individual. For me, I was not only challenged physically, but in a leadership capacity as well, being Candidate Pl Comd for my duration on RFT. In the end, my career was spared, and I had a valuable learning experience in an officer capacity. I can say without any hesitation that in the 9 days I spent on RFT, I was more challenged and motivated than I was on my 6 week BOTP course, and it was easily on-par for a learning experience as an officer.

Thanks to RFT, I haven't let myself make the same mistakes as last time. Not only was RFT a saving grace and a learning experience, but it was also a wake-up call. Hitting the gym has now found itself in my schedule 3 times a week... and that is scheduled to increase soon. While others in my degree program (Computer Science) are rapidly gaining weight and becoming heavily dependent on caffiene to survive long periods awake, I'm better able to survive and recover from a long waking period, eating much healthier food, and am wearing clothing sizes they could only dream of.

Amazing what 9 days can do.

To machine463 and all the RFT staff, thanks once again for a second chance at this career. Your motivation and teachings go farther than just the fence of St-Jean Garrison.


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## mysteriousmind

This is a good thread, very interesting.

Ill put on my experience;

OK I'm *not* the guy with the best shape in the unit, i still have to lose possibly and other 20-30 pounds, but one year ago, I had a horrific weight off 335 pounds, and now I'm at 255. 

I understand it is horrific, When I did my Express test on my Pres QBM, I failed my push up test and, the Course gave me a 10 days before retest. during the course, I did push ups every time I could, I had great people who helped med and encouraged me out. And I successfully completed my retest. 

OK I achieved the minimum level in my race, in my push up, but made good result in my sit up and the pull thing.

It was my responsibility to get in shape, I did what I could. 

When I started to train more "seriously" the 2.4k I was not able to do it under 15-16 minutes, now I do it in 13. I know it is still not acceptable, I should work harder on it. And I will.

Lately I went on my own of the 13k walk with the gear (minus weapon and steel pot) and I did 14k in around 2 hours 2 minutes. So I'm getting better. and this is what is important, willing to put the effort to get in better shape.

I know I will never be the Shapiest guy, But, I'm willing and that is what counts. 


*To be willing is to be able.*​


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## geo

To Pea, Jork & MM,
Good for you.

The idea of the RFT is a good one.  People who would have been turned away - never to be seen again have been brought up to snuff and have learnt a life lesson.  Time will tell if they return to old habbits or get on with their life.


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## machine463

I will pass on the good comments to the RFTstaff.  I'm happy that the program do work and it does showed.  To the Officer which did came on RFT, yes the instructors there always try to get your leadership skill out and always try to find new ways to improve yourself so down the road you can be at your best.  Don't forget LEAD BY EXAMPLE.
Thank for all the good comments


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## maniac779

I know that they are doing CrossFit at BNs and the Battle Schools and have even gone so far as to get instructors and PSP certified as CrossFit trainers. Are there any plans to implement this method of training (which is absolutley second to none) in other schools at well? (Namely St. Jean)

If not, why in the name of all that is holy are they not?


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## HItorMiss

Simple Answer.... Cross Fit is not the be all, end all system for fitness in fact I personally am not a fan at all.

The PSP may incorporate some of it into the system or what have you but it will not a be a true CrossFit system and like I said nor should it be. I don't use Crossfit I have used somethings from it but when I did a full Crossfit program I lost fitness.


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## maniac779

HitorMiss,

I'm curious what you didn't like about it.


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## HItorMiss

This is not a Cross Fit thread. This Thread is about the RFT program and why it does or does not work and how those on it have gained.

The Cross Fit Thread is here
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42068.0.html

Feel free to read it then PM me should you desire.


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## geo

maniac779 said:
			
		

> I know that they are doing CrossFit at BNs and the Battle Schools and have even gone so far as to get instructors and PSP certified as CrossFit trainers. Are there any plans to implement this method of training (which is absolutley second to none) in other schools at well? (Namely St. Jean)
> 
> If not, why in the name of all that is holy are they not?



Remember,
Not all people going thru St-Jean are destined for the Combat arms.
Air & Sea types might not be enthralled - and am refering to instructors AND candidates


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## punkd

geo said:
			
		

> Remember,
> Not all people going thru St-Jean are destined for the Combat arms.
> Air & Sea types might not be enthralled - and am refering to instructors AND candidates



So are you trying to say they should be held to less of a fitness standard than the rest?
Just because they arnt green doesnt mean they should not be held up to the same standard.


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## geo

The Air, Sea and Land have different fitness standards.  Each element will establish a standard that meets it's requirements.

Check it out.....Cross fit is not the fitness standard of Air, Sea or Land.

Recruits have to learn to walk before they can run.  Making them go fast will only result in one thing... some will get hurt


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## punkd

geo said:
			
		

> Making them go fast will only result in one thing... some will get hurt



Agreed. 

How ever in BMQ, recruits are all held to the same standard regardless of element. In their units its obviously a different story.
I think crossfit would be a good program to throw in and have the PSP staff run it during afternoon PT. Crossfit is not just for those in great shape, its to help get people into better shape. I guess with removing the fitness test from recruiting the recruits are starting to show up with no base level of fitness at all, this poses a problem for crossfit as well as in the CF in my opinion.


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## Munxcub

But even with CrossFit, newbies with no level of fitness will be doing basic PT stuff anyway. Pushups, pullups, air squats, running, sprinting, jumping... you don't throw them right into power snatches and handstand pushups.


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## machine463

Anyway CrossFit need way too much supervision.  Imagine 2 or 3 PSP with 60 to 70 candidates, that is not enough and you must have a good basic physical shape to start CrossFit, which lots of candidates do not have.


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## Fishbone Jones

OK...........one more time..................THIS IS NOT THE CROSSFIT THREAD.

Get back on track and go to the Crossfit thread for this discussion.

MILNET.ca Staff


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## Nfld Sapper

Just remember:

CF EXPRESS TEST is the Canadian Forces Standard

BATTLE FITNESS TEST (BFT) is the Land Force Command (i.e. the Army) Standard


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## ZipperHead

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Just remember:
> 
> CF EXPRESS TEST is the Canadian Forces Standard
> 
> BATTLE FITNESS TEST (BFT) is the Land Force Command (i.e. the Army) Standard



These are the standard..... FOR NOW.

Where do you want to be (fitness wise) when they change (i.e go up)?? At the minimal level of fitness required, and have to work like a rented mule to reach the New Standard? Or try to exceed the (existing) Standard; far and above what is required. In other words, try for 100%, not 60%. Because, as I read on a US military forum: Today's 60% soldier is tomorrow's 60% RSM. 

AL


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## Fishbone Jones

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> These are the standard..... FOR NOW.



And for the foreseeable future. When the Army decides to change, they'll let us know. Let's not make it sound like the change is around a corner. Nothing wrong with being ready, but no sense causing undo anxiety over something that's not even at the rumour stage.


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## ZipperHead

What exactly does "foreseeable future" mean?? Is that like being buried in the sand at the beach and when the water hits your chin you say "I can't see the the water reaching my eyebrows.... in the foreseeable future". You can hope it doesn't (i.e it stops when it reaches your lower lip), but I know I would start digging myself out well before the water reached my ankles. But then again, I'm a "Chicken Little" type..... Some are more of the ostrich (bury one's head in the sand, and not notice what is going on around them..... sorry but I think some of the younger folks here might not be familiar with such an old cliche).

AL


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## Fishbone Jones

Let's not start any bun fights, but we won't start any rumours either. You can go do what you want...........you always have. No one said anything about not being ready, but, there is no change to the PT Standard at this time, and you can't say if or when it will change. Let it drop.


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## Michael OLeary

Locked with the usual conditions.  If someone has factual contributions to add, please contact a Moderator, who may open the thread after reviewing the suggested addition.

Army.ca Staff


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