# The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements



## FSTO (14 Aug 2022)

This post was inspired by a picture from one of my sister naval officers who received another recognition of her outstanding service to Queen and Country. I’ll only use Commanders of the RCN/MARCOM/RCN as my models due to the lack of pictures of other officers and ranks, ahem Naval Blindness  . It started out as just a little post but has kinda grew. Sorry, not sorry!

IMO the Royal Canadian Navy since its inception, demise and rebirth (somewhat) the accoutrements have been wandering about the uniform like a lost calf who got outside of the electric fence. For the longest time, 1910 to 1968 the placing of medals and such followed the traditions of the Commonwealth and the only difference was the amount of time served in actual naval actions at sea.


The RCAF and Canadian Army has never really had this issue. The Army’s uniform didn’t really change much at unification and their accoutrements have never really moved from their original pre 1968 placements. The RCAF? Despite their RNAS (WWI) roots, they have basically followed the Army since unification.

So this post will kind of outline the movement of bling and other things on the jacket of an officer, Chief & PO, or a Rate since 1910.

Canadian Admirals who served in WWI
Director of the Naval Service (DNS)
Kingsmill DNS
Hose DNS/CNS





As you can see the Admirals ribbons are high on the left shoulder, and their cap badge are a direct copy of the Royal Navy. For the longest time you could not tell the difference between the RN and RCN. This non-distinction created a movement within both the RCN and the bureaucracy to forge an independent identity. This move was of course bitterly fought against by many within the RCN (sound familiar anyone?)

Canadian Admirals who served in both WWI and WWII
Chief of the Naval Staff (CNS)
Nelles CNS, Jones CNS, Reid CNS, Grant CNS, Mainguy CNS



Nelles on the left and Mainguy on the right both were younger officers in WWI. It appears that the handkerchief is on its way out. Cap badges remain the same and it appears the cover (white-black) changes as per the whims of the officer wearing it.

Canadian Admirals who served in WWII

DeWolf CNS
Rayner CNS
Dyer PNA (Principal Naval Advisor)
Hennessy PNA
Landymore MARCOM
O’Brien MARCOM (Unification – Ribbons move to above breast pocket)
Porter MARCOM
Timbrell MARCOM
Boyle MARCOM
Collier MARCOM




Dewolf on the left, Rayner on the right. The biggest change was the Canada flashes on the shoulder. Old guard RCN officers fought this move, but Canada was maturing as a nation and the old guard was losing that fight.

End of Part I
Part 2








						The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements. Part 2
					

https://army.ca/forums/threads/the-never-ending-roaming-of-navy-accoutrements-part-1.136965/    Landymore, O’Brien, Timbrell.  In RCN circles Rear-Admiral Landymore is famously remembered for his regard action against Paul Hellyer’s (MND) move to disband the RCN and unify all the elements into...




					army.ca
				




Part 3








						The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements. Part 3
					

Final part of my little post Admirals – Medals and qualification badges move to just above the breast pocket Garnett CMS MacLean CMS Robertson CMS McFadden CMS    Garnett, Maclean, Maddison  So by the late 90’s the CAF Machine has had enough of this mutinous behaviour by MARCOM and...




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## FSTO (14 Aug 2022)

The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements
					

This post was inspired by a picture from one of my sister naval officers who received another recognition of her outstanding service to Queen and Country. I’ll only use Commanders of the RCN/MARCOM/RCN as my models due to the lack of pictures of other officers and ranks, ahem Naval Blindness...




					army.ca
				






Landymore, O’Brien, Timbrell.

In RCN circles Rear-Admiral Landymore is famously remembered for his regard action against Paul Hellyer’s (MND) move to disband the RCN and unify all the elements into one joint force called the Canadian Armed Forces. He was forced out by the Minister and O’Brien was left to pick up the pieces. Rear-Admiral Robert Timbrell’s picture is the first one with the CAF uniform (officially his rank would be Lieutenant General but that heresy was quietly dropped after Hellyer was shuffled out). We now see massive changes to the uniform. Rifle Green jacket, medals move to the breast pocket and anchor collar tabs. The cap badge is now some GG symbol above crossed batons flanked by oak leaves (I cannot find a picture of a Mobile Commander to see if any was different for their cap)

Admirals Post WWII
Allan MARCOM
Fulton MARCOM



Collier, Allen, Fulton, Wood

The significance of these series of pictures is that Collier is the last Admiral with WWII experience and is followed by officers who joined at the end or just after the end of the war. The amount of medals are reduced significantly. Vice Admiral Wood’s picture shows the return to the Distinctive Environmental Uniform in the mid 80’s. The Navy appears to really embrace its return to the past. The RCN operational cap badge, (oak leaves gone and replaced by maple leaves) ribbons moved back to the shoulder, but additional shoulder straps to signify the CAF. Sadly the jacket has only 6 buttons and not the traditional 8. A reflection of our relationship with our new BFF’s? (USN)

Admirals post DEU reintroduction – Medals back high on the left breast. Maritime Operations Cap Badge
Wood MARCOM
Thomas MARCOM
George MARCOM
Anderson MARCOM
Cairns MARCOM
Murray MARCOM
Mason MARCOM





Thomas, George, Cairns

It appears that Admiral Wood pushed the unique RCN uniform envelope a little too far, as you can see with introduction of a CAF cap badge for FOGO’s (Flag Officers/General Officers). But the ribbons remain high, and there is still no executive curl. Cairns was a submariner so his qualification badge is on the lower sleeve. We now see that the name tag has been added to the jacket.

End of Part 2

Part 3








						The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements. Part 3
					

Final part of my little post Admirals – Medals and qualification badges move to just above the breast pocket Garnett CMS MacLean CMS Robertson CMS McFadden CMS    Garnett, Maclean, Maddison  So by the late 90’s the CAF Machine has had enough of this mutinous behaviour by MARCOM and...




					army.ca


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## FSTO (14 Aug 2022)

The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements
					

This post was inspired by a picture from one of my sister naval officers who received another recognition of her outstanding service to Queen and Country. I’ll only use Commanders of the RCN/MARCOM/RCN as my models due to the lack of pictures of other officers and ranks, ahem Naval Blindness...




					army.ca
				












						The Never-ending Roaming of Navy Accoutrements. Part 2
					

https://army.ca/forums/threads/the-never-ending-roaming-of-navy-accoutrements-part-1.136965/    Landymore, O’Brien, Timbrell.  In RCN circles Rear-Admiral Landymore is famously remembered for his regard action against Paul Hellyer’s (MND) move to disband the RCN and unify all the elements into...




					army.ca
				






Final part of my little post
Admirals – Medals and qualification badges move to just above the breast pocket
Garnett CMS
MacLean CMS
Robertson CMS
McFadden CMS



Garnett, Maclean, Maddison

So by the late 90’s the CAF Machine has had enough of this mutinous behaviour by MARCOM and medals/ribbons and qual badges are back to the breast pocket. But the Navy has one more arrow in its quiver and in 2011 the RCN and Executive curl is back! A brother officer asked a certain Admiral in the mid 2000’s if the RCN or curl would ever come back. He was roundly chastised by the Admiral and told to “quit living in the past!!” In retrospect it seems that if the conservatives are in power they chip away at Hellyer/LPC unification legacy. When the the Liberals are in power whatever is the status quo at the time seems to be okay with them. You can also see that the Sea Service Indicator is now introduced. Things are starting to get a little crowded. One final thing, Admiral Garnett has a SSM/Canada 125/CD with 2 clasps. The amount of gongs do not reflect his extensive service to Canada.

Admirals – RCN is back! Executive Curl returned. Sea Service Insignia is introduced
Maddison
Norman
MacDonald – Cocktail nametag for everyday use
Baines – NWO qualification badge introduced
Topshee


Norman, McDonald

With Admiral McDonald (appointed to CDS) we see the introduction of a larger name tag and a command badge. The Medal/Ribbon racks indicate the years of Post Cold war actions and the Global War on Terror. You can also see CDS commendations on the left pockets.


Topshee

The current Commander of the RCN Vice Admiral Angus Topshee shows the current iteration of RCN service uniform in all its glory. Large name tag, SSI, qual badge above the medals, medals on the pocket line, 6 button jacket, NWO badge and CDS commendation and the FOGO cap badge. No picture yet with the new cap.

In retrospect, the RCN has been affected over the years by self inflicted wounds and by being on the coast and out of site and mind by the general Canadian public. This has made the uniform the poster child of trying to find an identity. Prior to unification, the RCN was a fully paid member of the Commonwealth family of Navies, but after the Unification of the CAF it has fought with various amounts of success to retain its identity from the much larger Canadian Army and RCAF. The current amount of accoutrements on our uniform is in my mind a little much (I’m a minimalist) but others like it. If I could change on thing it would be the cap badges. Hard sea cap badges for all who wear the Navy Black!

Please RCN Leadership, for the love of god! Do not fill up the uniform with bling so that it out-blings Don Cherry!



The End

Funny, when I searched the DHH site for info on Army and RCAF leadership, there is the basic information and that's it. No portraits and extensive timelines like the RCN. Odd.


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## FJAG (15 Aug 2022)

Good show and quite informative.

I'm a fan of bling. Militaries are tribal and we need our versions of tattoos and knuckle bones in our hair and torques on our arms to show who we are and who we belong to. Even the RCAF which likes it's S3s to be relatively drab sports gaudy giant patched on the shoulders of their environmental clothing.

Warriors shouldn't let all the cubicle dwellers dictate an all equalizing bland greyness to their lives. As long as we don't go back to stocks on the necks and powdered wigs, we're golden.

The one thing that's worth envying in both the RCN and RCAF uniform is that it is much easier to switch back and forth between operational units without major changes in the uniform. Buttons and metal shoulder flashes and cap badges are relatively simple, but once we go to sewn on divisional patches and varying headdress and bits and pieces one needs to spend a small fortune on in the regimental kit shop, well ...

💂‍♂️


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Aug 2022)

@FSTO  the RCN has the best looking uniform out of all four services. 

The cut and material is also superior.  Even the moustache badge doesn't look that bad.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> @FSTO  the RCN has the best looking uniform out of all four services.
> 
> The cut and material is also superior.  Even the moustache badge doesn't look that bad.


Agree. The moustache is growing on me. I’d like the navy to do the right thing a go through the proper heraldic process to get the crown on it though.


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> Agree. The moustache is growing on me. I’d like the navy to do the right thing a go through the proper heraldic process to get the crown on it though.


Having worn both the christmas green and the salt and pepper, I know which one I would choose. 

I've got a soft spot for the salt and pepper though because the COVID deployment and what I felt my Ship and its Company accomplished means way more to me personally than anything else I did in the Armed Forces so maybe that colours my view somewhat.

I wish the Navy would go through the proper process for a lot of things but then it wouldn't be the Navy if it did things the right way 😄


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2022)

FJAG said:


> Good show and quite informative.
> 
> I'm a fan of bling.
> 
> 💂‍♂️


So am I and I have a few bits of bling.


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Aug 2022)

Bling tells a story. It's a resume written in cloth and tin.

The fact my wife of 13 years, who has an eye for detail to envy most SNCOs, can read a person's accomplishments off what they're wearing is a great indicator of its importance. 

The problem I have,  at least with the Army DEU, is how piss poorly its made and how uncomfortable it is on parade; in all weather. It's too damn hot for No. 1 in the summer, and we have an aversion to wearing gabardines in the winter (probably because you look like you're selling counterfit watches). 

The Navy seems to be getting back on track with their traditions and its reflected in their dress. There seems to be a lot of "operational" hang ups within the Army about improving our dress uniforms... with the false belief that it will take money out of the procurement of capabilities and put it into Buttons and Bows. I would hope we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Until then, we'll keep doing it poorly and looking like ass whenever we throw on the last Hellyer holdout uniform.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Bling tells a story. It's a resume written in cloth and tin.
> 
> The fact my wife of 13 years, who has an eye for detail to envy most SNCOs, can read a person's accomplishments off what they're wearing is a great indicator of its importance.
> 
> ...


I'm not against bling per say, I just don't want to look like Zhukov.   

Thank god for High Collar Whites. The city of Regina and RUSI have been unveiling a series of pedestals at the cenotaph honouring various regiments, squadrons, and ships. The other day I was attending the unveiling of a pedestal for HMCS Regina I and the Royal Regina Rifles and it was 30C plus. I was the only naval officer in whites while the rest of navy was in black and the army in dark green. They melted and I was comfy. C'est la guerre.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> I'm not against bling per say, I just don't want to look like Zhukov.


... or N.Korean officers, right?

Thanks LOADS for the granular look at RCN bling - much appreciated.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2022)

I should also note that once the Executive Curl returned the FOGO shoulder boards disappeared from the Naval Jacket.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> I should also note that once the Executive Curl returned the FOGO shoulder boards disappeared from the Naval Jacket.



I would like to see some rank insignia modifications/changes for Navy NCMs.  I would support opening up the Anchor cap badge up to all Naval DEU pers as well.


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## FJAG (15 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> The problem I have, at least with the Army DEU, is how piss poorly its made and how uncomfortable it is on parade; in all weather. It's too damn hot for No. 1 in the summer, and we have an aversion to wearing gabardines in the winter (probably because you look like you're selling counterfit watches).


Don't want to go off the navy side of this but I agree. I liked the old 1960s era TWs and the return to the tan uniform was, IMHO, a positive step - light and comfortable and looked good (despite the black shoes and green hat) - not much better quality of material than the greens. I hated it when we let it go.

The army could certainly uses some phased in product improvement with the basic uniform.

🍻


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## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2022)

FJAG said:


> Don't want to go off the navy side of this but I agree. I liked the old 1960s era TWs and the return to the tan uniform was, IMHO, a positive step - light and comfortable and looked good (despite the black shoes and green hat) - not much better quality of material than the greens. I hated it when we let it go.
> 
> The army could certainly uses some phased in product improvement with the basic uniform.
> 
> 🍻



I always appreciated the natural fibres used in British Army uniforms.

Like, you know, the leather and wool they used for these


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## FJAG (15 Aug 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I always appreciated the natural fibres used in British Army uniforms.
> 
> Like, you know, the leather and wool they used for these
> 
> View attachment 72535


There's always been a little list in the back of my mind as to the items of kit I wish I still had to mark the hallmarks of my life. Puttees and the motorcycle chain that was used to hold down the blouse in my battledress trousers are two of those items.

On the other hand, I still have my white lanyard from when I was a bombardier, an FSOD Mobile Command armlet from the RCSA (the Shilo one) and a red and blue zigzag dickie we had to wear with our combats in the 1970s.

😉


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## dimsum (15 Aug 2022)

Meanwhile, for reasons, RCAF GOFOs wear both Army-style epaulets and RCN-style rank rings on their tunics.  

When RCAF changed to pearl-grey and GOFOs got rank rings on their sleeves, I wondered why they kept the epaulets.  No one else in the RCAF has them.


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2022)

FJAG said:


> There's always been a little list in the back of my mind as to the items of kit I wish I still had to mark the hallmarks of my life. Puttees and the motorcycle chain that was used to hold down the blouse in my battledress trousers are two of those items.
> 
> On the other hand, I still have my white lanyard from when I was a bombardier, an FSOD Mobile Command armlet from the RCSA (the Shilo one) and a red and blue zigzag dickie we had to wear with our combats in the 1970s.
> 
> 😉


Our “Dickie” was French Grey and later moved to the three colour Patricia one.

I did not like them. I still have them somewhere however


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## RangerRay (15 Aug 2022)

dimsum said:


> Meanwhile, for reasons, RCAF GOFOs wear both Army-style epaulets and RCN-style rank rings on their tunics.
> 
> When RCAF changed to pearl-grey and GOFOs got rank rings on their sleeves, I wondered why they kept the epaulets.  No one else in the RCAF has them.
> 
> View attachment 72541


I think some people might not know  they are GOFO’s without the epaulets  🤦‍♂️


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## FJAG (15 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Our “Dickie” was French Grey and later moved to the three colour Patricia one.
> 
> I did not like them. I still have them somewhere however


I always wondered what possessed us to use those things. I know they were popular with inflicted upon American troops back in the sixties (and earlier) and we were playing copy cat - maybe as a reaction to being shoehorned into those boring green S3s.

Here's a Cavalry scarf from the post-war 40s and the one popularized by Duvall in Apocalypse Now.










I hated them as much as having to give up my combat hat (which I still have) and having to wear a beret in the field. Another one of those brilliant satorical decisions the '70s Army was famous for.

And once again ... a thread successfully deflected.

😖


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## dimsum (15 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I think some people might not know  they are GOFO’s without the epaulets  🤦‍♂️


Yes...because RCN Flag Officers are always mistaken without epaulets...


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Aug 2022)

dimsum said:


> Yes...because RCN Flag Officers are always mistaken without epaulets...


I generally look for girth as my first indication 😁


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Aug 2022)

dimsum said:


> Yes...because RCN Flag Officers are always mistaken without epaulets...


Apparently that is why the Army GOFOs pushed for a return to Maple Leaf ranks and Lasagna Braid. The urban legend I heard was one was not given proper compliments in DEU during the transition to Pips & Crowns. 

"How on earth will anyone know I'm a general?"
"Sir, if the troops don't know you're the General, you're spending too much time in the office..."


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## RangerRay (16 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Apparently that is why the Army GOFOs pushed for a return to Maple Leaf ranks and Lasagna Braid. The urban legend I heard was one was not given proper compliments in DEU during the transition to Pips & Crowns.
> 
> "How on earth will anyone know I'm a general?"
> "Sir, if the troops don't know you're the General, you're spending too much time in the office..."


They don’t seem to have that problem in every other army in the Commonwealth…


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## dimsum (16 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Apparently that is why the Army GOFOs pushed for a return to Maple Leaf ranks and Lasagna Braid. The urban legend I heard was one was not given proper compliments in DEU during the transition to Pips & Crowns.
> 
> "How on earth will anyone know I'm a general?"
> "Sir, if the troops don't know you're the General, you're spending too much time in the office..."


If the sword and baton on top, and the gorget patches don't give it away...

I do sort of get that though.  It's still only on one part of the body (shoulders), vice the RCAF (sleeves _and_ shoulders).  Yes, the lasagna is weird but it doesn't change with successive GOFO ranks.

But I digress...


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## Edward Campbell (16 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Bling tells a story. It's a resume written in cloth and tin.
> 
> The fact my wife of 13 years, who has an eye for detail to envy most SNCOs, can read a person's accomplishments off what they're wearing is a great indicator of its importance.
> 
> ...


True story ... not long after the introduction of the (then new) DEUs the Chief of Engineering and Maintenance, RAdm Ed Healey, got a nasty letter from Mrs Chuck Thomas, wife of the then COMMARCOM, complaining about the quality of the white shirts issued to the Navy. The specific problem was that the collars wrinkled - the root cause was the the specification (yes, we had Gov't of Canada specifications for everything) called up preshrunk cloth but failed to call for preshrunk thread! I investigated with our supply folks who did not try to lay the blame off on to Supply and Services Dept ... rather they pointed me to the minutes of a meeting of the CF Clothing and Dress Committee which said, explicitly, that the quality of the new dark and light blue and tan uniforms should not be better than the quality of the existing "CF greens."

Who was on that committee?
.
.
.
.
.
.
COMARCOM


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## Edward Campbell (16 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Our “Dickie” was French Grey and later moved to the three colour Patricia one.
> 
> I did not like them. I still have them somewhere however


I hated dickies - both Signals and The RCR loved 'em. It was a flippin' nightmare.

Anyway, I really quite liked the olive drab cotton scarf that the Army issued ... fast forward to 1978 ... I am appointed to command 1 CDN Sig Regt which is being reformed into 1st Canadian Division HQ and Signal Regt and, as we continue with a series of exercises* designed to "right-size" (and shape) a Div HQ and practice Bde HQs in working in a Div I am the Commanding Officer of the Div Comd and his staff when they come to the field. 

The A/GOC (General Officer Commanding) in my old friend (really) and mentor and former (RCR) CO, BGen Blake Baille. He and the staff officers arrive in the exercise location all sporting brightly coloured dickies. I and my officers and soldiers are all either bare necked or wearing a loose, issued, cotton scarf. BGen Baille is nothing if not observant and perceptive. He calls me aside and says, "I think it's appropriate that I introduce you to the staff and remind them about how a HQ & Sig Regt works ... he does so and includes in his remarks an admonition that the staff must set an example for all the soldiers by adhering to HQ and Sig Regt dress instruction which he say, pulling off his RCR ascot (It was The RCR, for heaven's sake, they wouldn't call it a dickie!), do not include multi-coloured, synthetic dickies! 

----
* Known, officially, as the _Rite Simple_ series of exercises, called by the soldiers, due to their often tedious nature, as '_Rite F'ing Complicated_.'


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## lenaitch (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> I'm not against bling per say, I just don't want to look like Zhukov.


When speaking of small town police chiefs, a former boss called them Manuel Noriega uniforms.  It seemed the smaller the department, the blingier the suit.


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I generally look for girth as my first indication 😁


Now that you're out of the RCN, they've gotten skinnier. Cause and effect?


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> True story ... not long after the introduction of the (then new) DEUs the Chief of Engineering and Maintenance, RAdm Ed Healey, got a nasty letter from Mrs Chuck Thomas, wife of the then COMMARCOM, complaining about the quality of the white shirts issued to the Navy. The specific problem was that the collars wrinkled - the root cause was the the specification (yes, we had Gov't of Canada specifications for everything) called up preshrunk cloth but failed to call for preshrunk thread! I investigated with our supply folks who did not try to lay the blame off on to Supply and Services Dept ... rather they pointed me to the minutes of a meeting of the CF Clothing and Dress Committee which said, explicitly, that the quality of the new dark and light blue and tan uniforms should not be better than the quality of the existing "CF greens."
> 
> Who was on that committee?
> .
> ...


Wow! who'd of thunk eh? 
The DEU's were introduced in the mid 80's right? When I joined in 89, the ss shirts seemed to have been made of heavy plastic. And the LS shirts had collars that would curl upwards after two or three washes. They never solved those issues until the late 90's.


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## Edward Campbell (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> LS shirts had collars that would curl upwards after two or three washes.


That, _I think_, was the issue (it's 35+ years ago): pre-shrunk cloth was called for in the contract but the same contract failed to specify pre-shrunk thread; the threads shrunk after a few washings, the cloth didn't. But the contractor only did as "we" asked and the procurement department people used the standards "we" (DND) said were appropriate.


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> That, _I think_, was the issue (it's 35+ years ago): pre-shrunk cloth was called for in the contract but the same contract failed to specify pre-shrunk thread; the threads shrunk after a few washings, the cloth didn't. But the contractor only did as "we" asked and the procurement department people used the standards "we" (DND) said were appropriate.


"we" are stupid.


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## mariomike (16 Aug 2022)

lenaitch said:


> When speaking of small town police chiefs, a former boss called them Manuel Noriega uniforms.  It seemed the smaller the department, the blingier the suit.


Professional heroes?

What I noticed on emergency operations was the lower left sleeve.

One leaf for every five years on your respective department.

Some U.S. departments are more "blingy" than others. ( attachment )

Then comes the subject of mixing federal, provincial and municipal bling.


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## KevinB (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> Wow! who'd of thunk eh?
> The DEU's were introduced in the mid 80's right? When I joined in 89, the ss shirts seemed to have been made of heavy plastic. And the LS shirts had collars that would curl upwards after two or three washes. They never solved those issues until the late 90's.


For the Army the LS DEU shirts where much nicer material compared to the Tan SS and similar to the Tan LS . I think honestly the Green Winter LS where the same green LS shirt from the old unifersal greens — I didn’t have an old wrapper to compare. 

 They did need to get the collars starched to not turn - but the Army tan short sleeve shirts seemed to be made of nylon - and where significantly unpleasant.   The same awful material was retained when Army Tan DEU’s died and the summer green shirt sucked as bad as the old tan (the Garrison dress shirt eventually).  Several folks I knew who had to wear DEU every day got extra Tan LS shirts and had them cut to SS - the material actually breathed and didn’t cause nipple
Chafing when sweaty like the SS tan did. 


I found it interesting to see the tan Cyprus clothes where much nicer material than the DEU Tan’s.


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## Halifax Tar (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> Wow! who'd of thunk eh?
> The DEU's were introduced in the mid 80's right? When I joined in 89, the ss shirts seemed to have been made of heavy plastic. And the LS shirts had collars that would curl upwards after two or three washes. They never solved those issues until the late 90's.



I have two of those old white S/S shirts and wear them.  I prefer them to current transparent shirts. All my chest tattoos are very noticeable in the new ones. 

Now @FSTO how do we get proper naval rank insignia for Naval NCMs, and how do get anchors for all as cap badges ?


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Now @FSTO how do we get proper naval rank insignia for Naval NCMs, and how do get anchors for all as cap badges ?


Hmm, well I could hypnotize Angus and like the Moustache Badge, he'd just order it and it'd be done!!!!

Seriously? We'd need to put together a rock solid proposal to the Dress Committee (and get willing mutinous bastards/co conspirators placed on said committee) and push it through.


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I prefer them to current transparent shirts.


I wear an undershirt. 

I'm full of good ideas!


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## dapaterson (16 Aug 2022)

How about the RCN de-toxify their workplaces, fix ships, and create a place where people want to serve, and not where sexually assaulting NWOs become admirals instead?


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## Halifax Tar (16 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How about the RCN de-toxify their workplaces, fix ships, and create a place where people want to serve, and not where sexually assaulting NWOs become admirals instead?



Yup, and we have other threads on this forum for that discussion.


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## Halifax Tar (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> Hmm, well I could hypnotize Angus and like the Moustache Badge, he'd just order it and it'd be done!!!!
> 
> Seriously? We'd need to put together a rock solid proposal to the Dress Committee (and get willing mutinous bastards/co conspirators placed on said committee) and push it through.



I'm in!  Can I wear an eye patch ?  



FSTO said:


> I wear an undershirt.
> 
> I'm full of good ideas!



That's why you're in charge


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## rmc_wannabe (16 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How about the RCN de-toxify their workplaces, fix ships, and create a place where people want to serve, and not where sexually assaulting NWOs become admirals instead?


See my comment about walking and chewing gum above.


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How about the RCN de-toxify their workplaces, fix ships, and create a place where people want to serve, and not where sexually assaulting NWOs become admirals instead?


Geez a ray of sunshine!  😤

This whole thing started as a little pet project about gongs and their placement on a Navy Uniform.


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## dapaterson (16 Aug 2022)

I'd rather ships that meet SOLAS than new trinkets for uniforms, but maybe I'm just old fashioned.


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## Spencer100 (16 Aug 2022)

To get back on track 

I do like the ribbon/medals rack up high on the left shoulder like in the past.  What's everyone opinion?

Also it looks like it has moved around a bit.  Can an individual GOFO just kind of do what they want?


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## FSTO (16 Aug 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> To get back on track
> 
> I do like the ribbon/medals rack up high on the left shoulder like in the past.  What's everyone opinion?
> 
> Also it looks like it has moved around a bit.  Can an individual GOFO just kind of do what they want?


I like them there as well. 

As for the FOGOs, I'm sure if the Admiral decided to move their ribbons, would there be much of a kerfuffle? Similar to the Rouleau Roll?


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## Halifax Tar (16 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I'd rather ships that meet SOLAS that new trinkets for uniforms, but maybe I'm just old fashioned.



So would everyone else, but that's not the discussion of this thread.  



Spencer100 said:


> To get back on track
> 
> I do like the ribbon/medals rack up high on the left shoulder like in the past.  What's everyone opinion?
> 
> Also it looks like it has moved around a bit.  Can an individual GOFO just kind of do what they want?



I agree.  The medals should be move back up on the left shoulder, and qualifications back on the sleeve ?


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## Halifax Tar (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> I like them there as well.
> 
> As for the FOGOs, I'm sure if the Admiral decided to move their ribbons, would there be much of a kerfuffle? Similar to the Rouleau Roll?



Id like to see the services be able to tinker with their uniforms and accoutrements without having to seek approval from some multi service CAF Dress committee.


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Aug 2022)

I remember the dickies/Ascots. As a young recruit our RSM says "You will all wear them" Go to supply, they say "We don't issue them see the RSM". RSM says: "Yes young lad, only $15 out of your pocket" (my pay was $18 a day before tax) Turns out the RSM dictated clothing wear and ran the kit shop.....

Before the coffee kicked in, I thought this thread title said "Naval accountants"


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## Journeyman (16 Aug 2022)

Let's see what happens with enforcement of dress regulations once the pink hair, fishnet stockings, and facial tattoos kicks in.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Aug 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> To get back on track
> 
> I do like the ribbon/medals rack up high on the left shoulder like in the past.  What's everyone opinion?
> 
> Also it looks like it has moved around a bit.  Can an individual GOFO just kind of do what they want?



If I recall back to when the DEUs were being introduced, one of the issues with the Navy uniform and medal ribbons was the inconsistent tailoring of the breast pocket - they had difficulty in having it parallel to the ground; some tilted right, some tilted left.  Not a problem when the ribbons were placed higher on the chest (they could be adjusted to suit), but sloppy looking if placed in-line with the top of the pocket (like the other services and what was supposed to be the original common dress instruction).


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## OldSolduer (16 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I hated dickies - both Signals and The RCR loved 'em. It was a flippin' nightmare.
> 
> Anyway, I really quite liked the olive drab cotton scarf that the Army issued ... fast forward to 1978 ... I am appointed to command 1 CDN Sig Regt which is being reformed into 1st Canadian Division HQ and Signal Regt and, as we continue with a series of exercises* designed to "right-size" (and shape) a Div HQ and practice Bde HQs in working in a Div I am the Commanding Officer of the Div Comd and his staff when they come to the field.
> 
> ...


I was on a few of the Rite Simple exercises with 1 CBG HQ and Sig Sqn. As a crayon eating infantry type in the Sqn D & E Platoon it wasn't a bad gig. Not a great one or a jammy one but we were looked on as SMEs on subjects like land nav and winter warfare as well as a few other infantry type things. I had many "Jimmy" friends as well. Not bad fellows at all.


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## Furniture (16 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Id like to see the services be able to tinker with their uniforms and accoutrements without having to seek approval from some multi service CAF Dress committee.


The "services" aren't really "services" though. I wear Navy DEU, but I am not part of the RCN. I belong to a separate branch, and they would not take kindly to being told their people aren't allowed to wear branch insignia because a different branch says so. 

Now, I'm sure if the the RCN came up with a system for identifying branches while still having the anchor cap badge, other branches would be more likely to accept the proposal. 

Lastly, I finally got my initial issue DEU today... The SS shirts and white pants are horrible. I bet Dickies could whip out a better looking, and higher quality uniform for a lot less money.


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## rmc_wannabe (16 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I was on a few of the Rite Simple exercises with 1 CBG HQ and Sig Sqn. As a crayon eating infantry type in the Sqn D & E Platoon it wasn't a bad gig. Not a great one or a jammy one but we were looked on as SMEs on subjects like land nav and winter warfare as well as a few other infantry type things. I had many "Jimmy" friends as well. Not bad fellows at all.


D&S Pl is truly a lost capability I wish we could bring back.

The Infantry folks loved it because it was relatively routine tasks without a lot of the Coy or Bn heartaches experienced in the line. The HQ Staff loved it because you had a living breathing SME to reference with in the OPP instead of digging into the pubs/doctrine. Us Sigs loved it because we were able to focus on our primary tasks of establishing and maintaining comms without having to scramble to remember defensive siting of crew served weapons


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## Navy_Pete (16 Aug 2022)

FSTO said:


> Agree. The moustache is growing on me. I’d like the navy to do the right thing a go through the proper heraldic process to get the crown on it though.



Nah, still ugly, but if you want to give the rest of the trades yet another reason to make fun of NWOs it gives an easy target. It's aesthetic poorly done and kind of random criterias. Getting BWK qualified isn't even hitting OFP, and it's not a specialist badge.

All of this is lipstick on pigs; usually when there is something like this that comes out the eye roll from the main cave is enough to get the ship moving.

The current medal placing fits along the pocket, so makes it easy to place things, why complicate it? The folks putting out the PA photos for the moustache could use it as a ruler on a short sleeve, but most people can manage pretty easily when you have a clear reference point.


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## dimsum (16 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Now @FSTO how do we get proper naval rank insignia for Naval NCMs


I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

It's 2022, and we've had the current rank insignia since 1968.  That's 54 years.  If we subtracted 54 years from 1968, that's 1914 - only 4 years away from its founding in 1910.  So...the current insignia has been in use for almost (soon to surpass) the "traditional" insignia.  

Also, what is "proper"?  Some British Commonwealth navies use similar insignia, but there are differences there too.  Then there's the French-style insignia used in France, etc.  How about the USN style?


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## Halifax Tar (17 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> The "services" aren't really "services" though. I wear Navy DEU, but I am not part of the RCN. I belong to a separate branch, and they would not take kindly to being told their people aren't allowed to wear branch insignia because a different branch says so.
> 
> Now, I'm sure if the the RCN came up with a system for identifying branches while still having the anchor cap badge, other branches would be more likely to accept the proposal.
> 
> Lastly, I finally got my initial issue DEU today... The SS shirts and white pants are horrible. I bet Dickies could whip out a better looking, and higher quality uniform for a lot less money.



Good point.  How about offer the option to the member WRT cap badges ?



dimsum said:


> I'll play Devil's Advocate here.
> 
> It's 2022, and we've had the current rank insignia since 1968.  That's 54 years.  If we subtracted 54 years from 1968, that's 1914 - only 4 years away from its founding in 1910.  So...the current insignia has been in use for almost (soon to surpass) the "traditional" insignia.
> 
> Also, what is "proper"?  Some British Commonwealth navies use similar insignia, but there are differences there too.  Then there's the French-style insignia used in France, etc.  How about the USN style?



We are a commonwealth nation and our navy has a direct lineage from the RN.   Our ranks, as the are, should be drawn from there.

Anchors! We need more anchors! 

Lots of examples here:








						"Re-Royalization", "Re-Britification" and the Heritage Transformation
					

Man, you RCAF guys have the best union.  Ping bosn's make spec pay... I'd say the RCN has a decent union too.




					army.ca
				




Some reasonable


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## Good2Golf (17 Aug 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I'd rather ships that meet SOLAS than new trinkets for uniforms, but maybe I'm just old fashioned.


…because the Army is much more effective and not divisional patch/qualification/oversized maple leaves/Noriega Hat happy and can fire logistically optimized Brigade Groups out the door all day long…


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## Edward Campbell (17 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> D&S Pl is truly a lost capability I wish we could bring back.
> 
> The Infantry folks loved it because it was relatively routine tasks without a lot of the Coy or Bn heartaches experienced in the line. The HQ Staff loved it because you had a living breathing SME to reference with in the OPP instead of digging into the pubs/doctrine. Us Sigs loved it because we were able to focus on our primary tasks of establishing and maintaining comms without having to scramble to remember defensive siting of crew served weapons


I fought hard to keep an assault pioneer section in 1 CDN Sig Regt; they provided a an enormously valuable capability and, most importantly, an instructional cadre for my other arms and services soldiers.

There was a huge fear in some militia units (hello, PWOR) that I wanted them to provide a full time D&S company (pioneer pl, Comd/Tac HQ security pl, and two or three HQ D&E pls. Actually, there only really useful support I could provide to the local militia unit (PWOR) was some infantry training in assault pioneer skills.

_I believed_ then (40 years ago) and still _suspect _now that *IF* we ever form a Div *for war* the Div HQ will have a D&S Coy. It isn't that Signals want or need to be too busy to site crew served weapons it is simply that there will not be enough of them (RCCS soldiers) - IF/when we go to war 1 and 2 person teams (detachments) will be the norm because the personnel demands will be too great to allow anything more.


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## FJAG (17 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I fought hard to keep an assault pioneer section in 1 CDN Sig Regt; they provided a an enormously valuable capability and, most importantly, an instructional cadre for my other arms and services soldiers.
> 
> There was a huge fear in some militia units (hello, PWOR) that I wanted them to provide a full time D&S company (pioneer pl, Comd/Tac HQ security pl, and two or three HQ D&E pls. Actually, there only really useful support I could provide to the local militia unit (PWOR) was some infantry training in assault pioneer skills.
> 
> _I believed_ then (40 years ago) and still _suspect _now that *IF* we ever form a Div *for war* the Div HQ will have a D&S Coy. It isn't that Signals want or need to be too busy to site crew served weapons it is simply that there will not be enough of them (RCCS soldiers) - IF/when we go to war 1 and 2 person teams (detachments) will be the norm because the personnel demands will be too great to allow anything more.


There are two issues in this post: the first is the concern certain RegF units have as to how they will augment RegF and the second is the fact that the RegF by and of itself does not have enough PYs to cover war-time establishments and need a system of augmentation.

I've long ago expressed my concerns that our system of force generation for force employment, both within the RegF and as between the RegF and ResF, is dysfunctional. While it may be adequate for peacetime service with long lead times it is entirely incapable of generating a proper force structure (both personnel and equipment) for any large scale operations. We are lacking a mobilization capability. In fact, our administrative processes for augmentation are counterproductive for mobilization purposes.

IMHO, every army needs to be capable of, and proficient in, mobilizing its resources in their totality. 

The more that I put my mind to this, the more I believe the problem lies in the almost total separation as between the RegF and ResF and the fact that almost all ResF personnel (except that little aberration, the professional Class B corps) are hived away in little discrete organizations that have no operational purpose but are mere administrative and individual training entities (neither of which they are particularly good at)

There is a need for a wholesale reorganization of the Army's structure. One where units and formations are organized in such a way that their normal day-to-day peacetime functions are performed by their organic RegF PYs and their wartime establishment is bolstered by ResF personnel that are organic to the unit and who are trained and administered by the unit. If a signals regiment requires a D&S company, a pioneer platoon and additional signallers in a fully established regiment but not day-to-day then recruit reservists into those positions and make the administration and training of those people the responsibility of the RegF CO and staff of that signals regiment within an appropriate national framework of ResF administrative and training policies.

Once again we're slipping off the thread's rails but the concept is also very relevant to the Navy which also has problems in getting the properly trained person into the slot where he/she is needed.

🍻


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## Halifax Tar (17 Aug 2022)

Man everything seems to come back to Army Res and Reg F relationship and structuring, or lack there of eh ?  

I had no idea Naval dress ideas were part of the problem.


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## Furniture (17 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Man everything seems to come back to Army Res and Reg F relationship and structuring, or lack there of eh ?
> 
> I had no idea Naval dress ideas were part of the problem.


Of course the navy would say that...


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## Halifax Tar (17 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> Of course the navy would say that...


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Man everything seems to come back to Army Res and Reg F relationship and structuring, or lack there of eh ?
> 
> I had no idea Naval dress ideas were part of the problem.


If you have a gap between your breast pocket and your name tag, then that is where Ivan is going to slip a SSN or a BTG through. We cannot afford a accoutrements gap.


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## FJAG (17 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Man everything seems to come back to Army Res and Reg F relationship and structuring, or lack there of eh ?
> 
> I had no idea Naval dress ideas were part of the problem.


An opening appeared ... I ran with it. I did mention the Navy.

😁


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## Furniture (20 Aug 2022)

This seems the appropriate place...

For the next round of uniform fixes for the RCN, can we get a hat mold that isn't round? Seriously... To get a hat that is comfortable, I need to look like Dark Helmet.

Edit: I have the new hat, but to get a hat that fits front to back, it sticks out at the sides... I feel like I'm not the only human that does not have a round head.


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## dimsum (20 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> This seems the appropriate place...
> 
> For the next round of uniform fixes for the RCN, can we get a hat mold that isn't round? Seriously... To get a hat that is comfortable, I need to look like Dark Helmet.
> 
> Edit: I have the new hat, but to get a hat that fits front to back, it sticks out at the sides... I feel like I'm not the only human that does not have a round head.


This will sound weird, but can you form the new hat?


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## Furniture (20 Aug 2022)

dimsum said:


> This will sound weird, but can you form the new hat?


I plan to try, but because we are limited to one new hat right now I don't want to risk mangling it and not having a hat at all.


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## Good2Golf (20 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> I plan to try, but because we are limited to one new hat right now I don't want to risk mangling it and not having a hat at all.


At least taking out the miniature pool noodle should help…


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## Furniture (20 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> At least taking out the miniature pool noodle should help…


The new hats don't have the storage ring, or at least that I have been able to find. 

The advantage of a hat that is too large around the sides is it naturally want to sit at a jaunty angle... I'll just take my years of practice wearing a wedge, and apply it to the peak cap. 

It's been done before, so I'll sell it as bring back tradition.


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## dimsum (20 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> The new hats don't have the storage ring, or at least that I have been able to find.
> 
> The advantage of a hat that is too large around the sides is it naturally want to sit at a jaunty angle... I'll just take my years of practice wearing a wedge, and apply it to the peak cap.
> 
> ...


I mean, if you're going to use an example, Max Bernays is a good one.


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## Furniture (20 Aug 2022)

dimsum said:


> I mean, if you're going to use an example, Max Bernays is a good one.


That's why I chose the picture


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## ueo (26 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Id like to see the services be able to tinker with their uniforms and accoutrements without having to seek approval from some multi service CAF Dress committee.


Seem to remember 3 Mech Cdo being "gifted" an american style camo dickie in the early 70"s. CO's decision made binding by the RSM. No further discussion or comment! BTW they were some uncomfortable.


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## OldSolduer (26 Aug 2022)

Why don't you RCN types just wear a pirate hat? Shiver me timbers....


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## dimsum (26 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Why don't you RCN types just wear a pirate hat? Shiver me timbers....


Because the Navy would be the ones pursuing said pirates?


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## RangerRay (26 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Why don't you RCN types just wear a pirate hat? Shiver me timbers....


They used to…


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