# Mess Kits



## 28Medic (24 Apr 2005)

Selling this for a friend.
Men's Mess kit includes....jacket, pants, suspenders and cummer-bun (sp?)
This is a red bolero style jacket, pants are black with sanguine/burgundy strip down leg.
Jacket currently has WO rank, red jump wings and medical badge accouterments (items are easily switched)
Fits approx height... 5' 8" - 6' 1" and weight...180 - 200 lbs.
In excellent condition
Located in Ottawa...

Price: $200.00 ?? (willing to negotiate)

Reason for selling: both guys who wore this mess kit have left the medical branch and gone officer in the Airforce!


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## retired@23 (7 May 2005)

Were you in Pet in 93?

Whose was it?


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## Tacticalnurse (17 May 2006)

Is this for sale still - I am DEFINITLEY INTERESTED - NOW!!!

Do you have a waist size and jacket size??


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## Wildfire6969 (5 Nov 2006)

do you still have this?? what size?


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## Trinity (5 Nov 2006)

This is an incredible price....

i paid 400 for used.... doeskin


is this doeskin or the other type of fabric... 

even then.. 200 is a fantastic price.


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## Fraser.g (14 Dec 2006)

It is not Doeskin but it fits me like it was tailored for me ;D

By the way, is wearing the cumberbun or wiastcoat a choice or dress regs.
It came with the cumberbun but since then I have herd that the waistcoat is the way to go.

GF


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## Gunner98 (15 Dec 2006)

I believe (and will confirm with RSM in the morn)...

Cumberbun - up to and including WO, MWO/CWO - waistcoat/vest.  Unless grandfathered with old style mess kit that does not accommodate waistcoat/vest.

Officers - waistcoat/vest unless grandfathered with old style mess kit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waistcoat


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## ra2xz (5 Apr 2010)

Hi there, I've searched the site, and found no answer!

I was wondering if there is any SSM's out there that may know off the top of their head.

Strictly hypothetical:

Say I have a member that was air force, they had completed an OT the the army.
The currently own a Air Force mess key, they wear it to functions, will they be required to but the army mess kit or are they still auth'd to wear their old air force mess kit with all past accouterments, IE Ranks, identifying trade parts etc?

Is there any direction or anything I remember i thought i saw something about mess kits recently that stated something along these lines but i cant find it now.

Thanks I appreciate the help!


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Apr 2010)

WEAR OF MESS DRESS 

57. Acquisition 

a. All Regular Force officers are required to be
in possession of mess dress No. 2, which
shall be procured at individual expense.
Newly-commissioned officers are required to
obtain this order of dress not later than six
months after commissioning.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular
Force non-commissioned members and all
members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition
is the responsibility of the individual.

c. army colonels, on promotion to that rank,
may elect to continue to wear their previous
branch/regiment mess dress, with current
rank insignia, instead of the pattern
authorized for army colonels (less honorary
and Royal appointees) and described in
Chapter 6, Appendix 1 to Annex B,
paragraph 8.

58. CF personnel who purchased an obsolete
dress pattern while it was still authorized, may
continue to wear that uniform until it is worn out. New
purchases shall conform to current regulations.

59. Obsolete patterns include the following: 

a. the CF midnight blue mess dress and pre-
DEU combat arms mess dress may be worn
by those serving on, and who purchased the
uniform prior to 19 June 1986;

b. obsolete mess dress patterns of the Royal
Canadian Navy, Canadian Army, and Royal
Canadian Air Force may be worn by those
serving on, and who purchased the uniform
prior to 1 February 1968. Information on the
applicable regulations can be obtained from
NDHQ/DHH.


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## Pusser (8 Apr 2010)

The hypothetical member's air force mess kit would not be "obsolete" in this case (despite it being identical to the "old" CF midnight blue mess kit).  In his case it is the current air force mess kit and inappropriate if he is now an army officer.  Although the regulations don't specifically cover this exact scenario, I think there is enough there to imply that he needs to get a new mess kit.  Furthermore, he should show some professionalism and dress properly for his new occupation.  How do his brother and sister officers feel about his reluctance to show he is a member of his new family?  All he really shows is that he is cheap.  Being properly dressed is the first mark of professionalism.  As for qualification badges (not trade badges), they can still be worn on his army mess kit.


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## DexOlesa (8 Apr 2010)

How much does a mess kit cost? (new to the military, don't have any kit yet just curious)


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## dangerboy (8 Apr 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> How much does a mess kit cost? (new to the military, don't have any kit yet just curious)



With my rank badges and mini medals I paid around $900 (in 2006) for NCM Mess Kit.


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## PuckChaser (8 Apr 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> How much does a mess kit cost? (new to the military, don't have any kit yet just curious)



Not plugging this company, but its local for me and has a good breakdown of what you can expect to pay: http://www.andreitailors.com/military-frame.html

Pick your uniform type, then element, and an option will come up to see the price. You'll be looking at the Doeskin items.


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## Pusser (9 Apr 2010)

Make sure you spend the money to buy a high quality one and ask the tailor to put in lots of extra material for future expansion!  If you do that, it should last your whole career.


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

OK thanks, basically the price of buying a Tuxedo.


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Not plugging this company, but its local for me and has a good breakdown of what you can expect to pay: http://www.andreitailors.com/military-frame.html
> 
> Pick your uniform type, then element, and an option will come up to see the price. You'll be looking at the Doeskin items.



They also have "company reps" or recommended tailors across the country, accessed through their displays at CANEX.  So you don't have to visit their shop on Princess Street in Kingston.   ;D

As for "Doe Skin", it is more expensive and more difficult to maintain (Liqueur spills, Crud, etc.) than Barathea.  Barathea is cheaper, and looks just as good.


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## BinRat55 (9 Apr 2010)

I actually just picked up mine on Saturday. I went with the more expensive option (you only live once  right) and all in it came to just over 1300.00. That being said, th's with EVERYTHING (Except the boots - I will wear shoes) - shirt buttons, cuff links, bow tie, cummerbund AND minis (6 for $75). It is absolutely stunning and I highly recommend everyone getting them sometime in their career.


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## PMedMoe (9 Apr 2010)

6 minis for $75?  Mounted?  Where?


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## Pusser (9 Apr 2010)

I strongly disagree that barathea looks as good as doeskin.  Doeskin is the ONLY way to go!  The colours are richer and it looks much sharper.  The key is not to spill your drink!


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I strongly disagree that barathea looks as good as doeskin.  Doeskin is the ONLY way to go!  The colours are richer and it looks much sharper.  The key is not to spill your drink!



Are you implying that one should only have one drink?     >


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...  Barathea is cheaper, and _looks just as good_.



Yes to the first part of that, no to the second.  If you're used to looking at everyone wearing the doe skin ones, when you see one that isn't it almost looks like pool table felt.

While it is certainly the buyer's choice, personally I think it is well worth the marginally higher cost.

I could understand if the difference was $1,000 vs $500, but it's more like $1,000 vs $900.  For the amount of time you're going to have it and how formal it is, I would advise getting the doe skin not so much to impress others but just to have something that's better.


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

Question: I assume they are not actually made of Doe Skin Leather, so what is Doeskin?


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

You assume incorrectly.  They're Bambi, alright.


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

Really? Interesting. I figured they would be made of wool like a tuxedo, but leather? Different.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

Have you seen one up close?  It's not like shiny leather; they're more like suede.


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

No i haven't, I get sworn in this July. I was just curious.


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## Pusser (9 Apr 2010)

OK, let's not lead gullible too far by the nose.  First off, Bambi (despite the effeminate name) was a buck!  Secondly, both doeskin and barathea are different weaves of WOOL.  The main difference is that you can see the weave on barathea from several feet away, whereas with doeskin, you have to get much closer (i.e. inches) to see the weave.  From normal social talking distance, doeskin looks like a rich felt.  It's also softer and less scratchy than barathea.


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## Pusser (9 Apr 2010)

> Are you implying that one should only have one drink?/quote]
> 
> Not at all.  Just one at a time (in each hand). ;D


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

Walked into that one didn't I? Oh well I'm thick skinned I can take the hazing that comes with being a fresh recruit  I suppose I could have just looked up Doeskin.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> ... Oh well I'm thick skinned I can take the hazing ....



Whoa whoa whoa...that word _ist verboten_ in Army circles.

The Navy has some weird drinking traditions, but some "kinda bad stuff" happened a couple decades ago.

I'll go to my grave believing my doeskin mess kit is made of real deer.


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## DexOlesa (9 Apr 2010)

*laughs* I like this forum, lot more people here with my sense of humor.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

I am in the process of buying all my new mess kit stuff. I have some questions after the amount of stuff at the Canex rack over took me. By the way, I am air force....

1. Are cummerbuns mandatory?
2. For air force, do we have to have the tartan stuff or can we stick to black (e.g. black bow tie instead of tartan, black cummerbun instead of tartan)?
3. Are handkerchief's mandatory?
4. Satin or poly type bowtie?
5. Metal clips or full wrap around bowtie?
6. Suspenders or belt?
7. What kind of shirt? There's three types: white ruffled with black pin-type buttons, plain white dress shirt with black pin-type buttons, or plain white dress shirt with clear buttons.
8. Or is everything just a manner of preference? 
9. Is there a "standard" mess dress for air force?

I think those are all of the questions I have.... I just want to make sure I buy everything once and not waste money on something I'm not going to wear.


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## Pusser (6 May 2010)

1. Are cummerbuns mandatory?

Yes, it's part of the uniform, unless you are authorized a waistcoat

2. For air force, do we have to have the tartan stuff or can we stick to black (e.g. black bow tie instead of tartan, black cummerbun instead of tartan)?

You can wear the appropriate branch cummerbund or the tartan one (BTW, black is the branch colour for Naval Operations, so you might not want that one).  Bowtie should be black - at least at the start of the evening.

3. Are handkerchief's mandatory?

No

4. Satin or poly type bowtie?

Silk of course

5. Metal clips or full wrap around bowtie?

Proper officers hand tie their bowties

6. Suspenders or belt?

There are no belt loops, suspenders are required, unless you want to be the subject of discussion the next day.

7. What kind of shirt? There's three types: white ruffled with black pin-type buttons, plain white dress shirt with black pin-type buttons, or plain white dress shirt with clear buttons.

No ruffles.  Discreet front with tiny pleats is best.  The black plastic "buttons" are actually studs, which should be replaced with nicer ones.

8. Or is everything just a manner of preference? 

There is some room for preferences, but there is a basic standard.

9. Is there a "standard" mess dress for air force?

Yes, the midnight blue mess kit detailed in the Air Force section of the Dress Manual.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

So I'd have to get a tartan cummerbun with a black bowtie? Yes, I know about the mess kit that has to be tailored (blue) but I meant standard for shirt, bowtie, etc. What is the branch cummerbund for CELE? Canex doesn't sell the ones you tie yourself.... so what is the next best thing? Canex doesn't sell shirts with tiny pleats... It looks like ruffles all across the front. As for the studs, what should they be replaced with?


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## ModlrMike (6 May 2010)

If Canex doesn't stock your branch cummerbund, then there are two options:  the generic AF tartan, or try ordering from the CELE kit shop available here: http://www.c-and-e-museum.org/MercuryShop/shopdisplaycategories.asp

They also have cuff links and studs.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

Or being in Kingston.... They should have them at the museum right? Just finishing at RMC and completely clueless about mess kit haha.


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## ModlrMike (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> Or being in Kingston.... They should have them at the museum right? Just finishing at RMC and completely clueless about mess kit haha.



Which probably explains why you can't get them at Canex.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

So do the black studs in the shirt get replaced with signals buttons?


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> So do the black studs in the shirt get replaced with signals buttons?



Yup.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

Even as a CELE and not as Sigs (just clarifying)? Wish it was only all one standard, not so many choices


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> Even as a CELE and not as Sigs (just clarifying)? Wish it was only all one standard, not so many choices



The signals branch badge is the same reagrdless of what trade you are.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

Is there even a branch specific tartan for CELE? Or is it just AF tartan? Which do the air force wear?


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> Which do the air force wear?



I have no branch specific cummerbun so i wear the AF tartant one. The engineers i see wear the engineer brick-red one ........


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

So black cummerbun is out for sure, right? Can a black bowtie be worn with it or does it have to be tartan too?


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> So black cummerbun is out for sure, right?



I have seen people wear the black one but very few.



> Can a black bowtie be worn with it



Yes


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

But it looks better to have both tartan?


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## 211RadOp (6 May 2010)

Go to the museum and talk with Mr Postill.  He will sort you out with everything you need.


*Edit to correct spelling error


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## SupersonicMax (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> 1. Are cummerbuns mandatory?
> 2. For air force, do we have to have the tartan stuff or can we stick to black (e.g. black bow tie instead of tartan, black cummerbun instead of tartan)?



Yes, they are mandatory.  I wore the black one initially, then got a tartan one.  Some units have their own.  



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> 3. Are handkerchief's mandatory?



No.  In fact, I have not seen anyone wear one with an AF mess kit.



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> 4. Satin or poly type bowtie?
> 5. Metal clips or full wrap around bowtie?



Whatever you want.  It doesn't matter in the end.  Most people wear the standard poly wrap around.  Your unit may have a unit bow-tie that you need to tie.



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> 6. Suspenders or belt?



Can't really wear a belt.  Definately suspenders.



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> 7. What kind of shirt? There's three types: white ruffled with black pin-type buttons, plain white dress shirt with black pin-type buttons, or plain white dress shirt with clear buttons.



I have a ruffled and I wear an "aircraft pin" for each aircraft I have flown.  For the empty spot, I wear the CAF crest pin.  You can wear whatever pin-type buttons.  Do NOT wear one with buttons attached to the shirt itself.



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> 8. Or is everything just a manner of preference?



Lots of it is preference.  There is the basic styles (Dark Blue or White) but everything else is pretty much your pick.  

Andrei is really good.  I got my mess kit from them for 800$ everything included (Capt Rank and pilot wings) For a 2Lt with nothing else, it would probably be cheaper by 50$ or so.  Canex also offers a 12 month no interest plan to buy your mess kit from them.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

Yeah, I'm going through Andrei.... I just wasn't sure like shirt wise and tie wise, and the other accessory-wise, if there was a standard or anything like that. How common are the plain white dress shirts with the studs?


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> How common are the plain white dress shirts with the studs?



I have not seen anybody wear it around here in the last 5 years.


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## murrdawg (6 May 2010)

So in short.... Get Signals buttons to replace the studs, get a pleated shirt, get an AF tartan bow tie and thing that goes around the waist, and suspenders?


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## aesop081 (6 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> get an AF tartan bow tie



The black one is fine. I wear the black one as i think that the tartant bowtie looks retarded.




> and thing that goes around the waist,



Yes


> and suspenders?



Yes.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

You've been four years at Kingston, and don't know any of this? :

Go see your Adjt or your Chief. Sit down and ask everything you want to know.

I hope your lack of Mess social graces is not indicitive of your education. Listening to advice on the internet, even on this forum, you run the high risk of showing up, at your mess dinner, looking like a circus clown. The two references above are your only safe bet as to what you should wear.


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## murrdawg (7 May 2010)

Recceguy, we do learn mess etiquette, but not about what is what in regards to the mess kit itself.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

Those same two will also be able to tell you how, and what, to wear for mess kit.


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## murrdawg (7 May 2010)

Etiquette is listed in books.... I have yet to see where it says anywhere as to what kind of tie you are supposed to wear, what kind of shirt, anything about the studs, so on and so forth. So unless you can prove to me anywhere in any military docs it says, then I don't believe you have any kind of point to prove. I am merely seeking out answers on this kind of thing from other people's experiences and what not because of the fact it isn't in any documentation. I'm sorry that you think the highest quality from RMC, but living it in the last 4 years, there's a lot to be desired.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

OK. I'll try make this simple. Quite talking about etiquette.

Go see your Adjt, or your CWO, ask them what is expected of you for wearing Mess kit. Those two are the ones that will know what is expected of your particular unit when wearing the same.

They will telll you if you need something in tartan, something in silk, what type of shirt that is expected, etc. Following their guidance will ensure you are properly dressed for the occasion, as they are the ones responsible for that corporate knowledge.


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## 211RadOp (7 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> Etiquette is listed in books.... I have yet to see where it says anywhere as to what kind of tie you are supposed to wear, what kind of shirt, anything about the studs, so on and so forth. So unless you can prove to me anywhere in any military docs it says, then I don't believe you have any kind of point to prove.



Easy, go to the C&E Branch Website (if I was at work I would post the link).  There, in Branch Orders, is what is required for the Mess Kit.


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## murrdawg (7 May 2010)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Easy, go to the C&E Branch Website (if I was at work I would post the link).  There, in Branch Orders, is what is required for the Mess Kit.



When you get a chance, would you mind?


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## 211RadOp (7 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> When you get a chance, would you mind?



I am on pre-deployment leave for the next two weeks, and will not be at the office for a while.  DIN search should pull it up, or go to the CFJSR DIN site and follow the links.


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## murrdawg (7 May 2010)

To access the DIN, I need a DWAN computer right?


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## Nfld Sapper (7 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> To access the DIN, I need a DWAN computer right?



 :nod:


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## rifleman (7 May 2010)

There doesn't need to be such an attack on the guy, there are people with decades of service that don't know the dress regs. For instance a black tie is the only authorized tie. Look at the descriptions in annex E for air force mess kit. Being air force you can wear the tartan or branch approved cummerbund. 

Even the shirt can be constrained to flat front, not pleated depending on your regiment.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

rifleman said:
			
		

> There doesn't need to be such an attack on the guy, there are people with decades of service that don't know the dress regs. For instance a black tie is the only authorized tie. Look at the descriptions in annex E for air force mess kit. Being air force you can wear the tartan or branch approved cummerbund.
> 
> Even the shirt can be constrained to flat front, not pleated depending on your regiment.



Hence the reason I told him to check with his Adjt or Chief


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## RubberTree (7 May 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> 5. Metal clips or full wrap around bowtie?
> 
> Proper officers hand tie their bowties



A word of caution to all following this advice...I've looked in all the "regular" suit shops (tiptop, moores...) and have had no luck finding a non clip on bowtie. I am sure they are available, but not on a "day before the mess dinner night" type of thing. If you are going to do it right and find a silk hand tie bowtie, start looking early and spare yourself the tank of gas driving around an entire city.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> A word of caution to all following this advice...I've looked in all the "regular" suit shops (tiptop, moores...) and have had no luck finding a non clip on bowtie. I am sure they are available, but not on a "day before the mess dinner night" type of thing. If you are going to do it right and find a silk hand tie bowtie, start looking early and spare yourself the tank of gas driving around an entire city.



You'll also not want to try learning how to tie it an hour before cocktails.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 May 2010)

;D


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## Nfld Sapper (7 May 2010)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> A word of caution to all following this advice...I've looked in all the "regular" suit shops (tiptop, moores...) and have had no luck finding a non clip on bowtie. I am sure they are available, but not on a "day before the mess dinner night" type of thing. If you are going to do it right and find a silk hand tie bowtie, start looking early and spare yourself the tank of gas driving around an entire city.



I'ved used this type of bow tie when I have to wear mess kit......and it is found in most suit shops.....


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2010)

Oh, the instructions seem simple enough, but go ahead and try it


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## Nfld Sapper (7 May 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Oh, the instructions seem simple enough, but go ahead and try it



Oh I know recce.... hence why I go with the second one


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## murrdawg (7 May 2010)

So I went into the RMC Canex today and got all my answers, every single one. I'll post them here so if someone in a similar situation that I was in can read this.

For General Air Force

- Tartan cummerbun
- Wrap around bowtie that adjusts
- White shirt with black studs and has small pleats
- Suspenders
- Air force pins to replace the studs and cufflinks

As I was told, sometimes the pins and cufflinks vary depending on the unit you go to, but for the basic mess kit, there are element pins.

Also, depending on the unit, they may have their own tartan cummerbun..... But the tartan cummerbun is the basic basic standard.

Thanks to everyone who helped out!


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## Pusser (7 May 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You'll also not want to try learning how to tie it an hour before cocktails.



Actually, I would argue that an hour AFTER cocktails is not the best time to learn to tie a bowtie!

It's worth noting though that a bowtie is the same knot that you use to tie your shoes.  Perhaps that's why some folks' ties are velcroed!


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## Sig_Des (7 May 2010)

murrdawg said:
			
		

> So I went into the RMC Canex today and got all my answers, every single one. I'll post them here so if someone in a similar situation that I was in can read this.
> 
> For General Air Force
> 
> ...



WRT cummerbund, from the C&E Branch Dress instruction:



> BRANCH CUMMERBUND
> 
> 5.17	*The midnight blue cummerbund using the Branch sealed colour will be worn with the midnight blue mess kit by all Air Force personnel regardless of ranks.*  The black silk cummerbund will be worn by all ranks with the navy and army white mess dress except as detailed below. The cummerbund is available at personal expense through the C&E Museum Mercury kit shop. Cummerbund shall be worn with the pleated opening facing upwards.


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## Neill McKay (7 May 2010)

A little bit of advice that will help you when you go shopping:



			
				murrdawg said:
			
		

> - White shirt with black studs and has small pleats



Spend the money to get one made of 100% cotton, not a cotton/poly blend.  Or, if you must get a blend, get one with as little polyester as you can.  There is a real and noticeable difference in comfort.  (A 100% polyester shirt is kind of like dressing in Saran Wrap.)



> - Air force pins to replace the studs



When you go to the kit shop or wherever, what you're looking for are shirt studs.  They probably come in a set of four or so.  If they're not too expensive, consider buying two sets so you'll be able to carry a spare.  Depending on how well they're made they can sometimes break, and of course such breakage will only be discovered at the last minute...

You can wear plain gold ones or ones with an approved branch or regimental pattern.  Unless you're in the Air Operations Branch, the ones you're probably picturing when you say "air force" are probably not correct for your branch.

Plain ones have the advantage of never turning upside down, as ones with a badge or crest can do.


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## Old_navy_062 (13 May 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You'll also not want to try learning how to tie it an hour before cocktails.



There is a great video on U Tube to teach tying a bow tie.  I do a quick review before a mess dinner.


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## SeanNewman (13 May 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Proper officers hand tie their bowties



I'm not sure if this was written tongue-in-cheek or not, but it was likely written at a time when "proper officers" bought their commissions, too.


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## Pusser (13 May 2010)

Yes, tongue was firmly in cheek when I wrote that.  However, the RCN Steward's Manual (still an excellent reference on naval mess etiquette) does make this same point by stating that officers do not wear ready-made bowties.  I will concede though that it is increasingly difficult to find proper bowties.  The one I bought at Eaton's 25 years ago is starting to get a little worn.  I have seen them on eBay though.

As for buying commissions, only the Army practiced that.  Commissions in the Navy have always been earned.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if this was written tongue-in-cheek or not, but it was likely written at a time when "proper officers" bought their commissions, too.



Makes perfect sense. Would you want to be led by someone that can't even tie a bowtie? 


You can by one at most places you rent tuxes.


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## SeanNewman (13 May 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Makes perfect sense. Would you want to be led by someone that can't even tie a bowtie?



While I can't speak for everyone, I think I would be more inspired by a leader who shared in the hardships, led from the front on IED'd roads, and trusted his subordinates than someone who rocked the casba at mess functions.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> While I can't speak for everyone, I think I would be more inspired by a leader who shared in the hardships, led from the front on IED'd roads, and trusted his subordinates than someone who rocked the casba at mess functions.


I would prefer a person who practices to perfection in all endeavors, not just a few.

However, I'm dropping this, as I refuse to get involved in your circular verbal attempts at shanghaiing people into conversation while you fulfil some Freudian need to suckle and bond.

HAGO


----------



## SeanNewman (13 May 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ...while you fulfil some Freudian need to suckle and bond.



That's awesome.  Great maturity from a moderator.

I would expect that from a teenager, not someone in their 50s with a leadership position on this site.


----------



## Journeyman (13 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> .....with a leadership position on this site.


Moderators on this site are also free to express their opinons and frustrations. 

When acting in a DS capacity, they tend to note that in their post.


Please don't mistake this as an invitation for a conversation from me either; you remain on <ignore>


----------



## GAP (13 May 2010)

:rofl:


----------



## SeanNewman (13 May 2010)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Please don't mistake this as an invitation for a conversation from me either; you remain on <ignore>



Obviously, since you respond to just about every post I make, regardless of the topic, parroting whatever Recceguy says.

Do you have any opinions of your own on this (or any) matter?


----------



## Swingline1984 (13 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Do you have any opinions of your own on this (or any) matter?



 : I think what is bothering people is the fact that you have an opinion on everything.  Lately when I go to the home page you average about 2 or 3 of every new post, I have to admit this place is starting to smack of the "Petamocto Forums".  

To attempt to bring this thread back on track I'll throw my vote in for the real or pre-tied round the neck bowtie as either is less likely to fall into your soup after a few glasses of good cheer.


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## LineJumper (14 May 2010)

I wore a real tie once, after having it pulled a few times to see if it was 'real' and punching out the final offender, I opted for the 'adjustable'. Fortunately I was a young Cpl at the time and the RSM said, "How can I charge him when most of my SNCO's aren't wearing it?" or words to that effect. I personally think being a Lineman helped ;D


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## Swingline1984 (14 May 2010)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> I personally think being a Lineman helped ;D



Being a Lineman always helps  8)

I'm actually tossing around the idea of buying mess kit right now but remain undecided.  The expense is quite high for something you rarely use, but I hear the comfort factor alone is worth laying out the funds.


----------



## LineJumper (14 May 2010)

It also prevents one from doing less stupid things, as one doesn't want to ruin such a fine red drinking suit. ;D


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## one_speed (20 Mar 2011)

Good evening all,
Can anyone recommend a good tailor that does CF Mess kit (army) in southern Ontario.  (Toronto, Hamilton, Quelph areas).

I am travelling down next week and am looking to be measured.

Thanks for your help

Ian


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## medicineman (20 Mar 2011)

The Borden CANEX can arrange it - and you can pay on the credit plan if you don't have the 1K or so burning a hole in your pocket.  It's not that far from Toronto either.

MM


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## my72jeep (20 Mar 2011)

PM inbound


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## chaplainLD (1 Apr 2011)

Is it permitted to wear a beret with mess kit under any circumstances!? Is there any precedent for this?


----------



## PMedMoe (1 Apr 2011)

chaplainLD said:
			
		

> Is it permitted to wear a beret with mess kit under any circumstances!? Is there any precedent for this?



Not that I'm aware of.  AFAIK, you do not wear _any_ headress with mess kit.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Apr 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Not that I'm aware of.  AFAIK, you do not wear _any_ headress with mess kit.



The current practice is usually no headdress, but in the past Army Mess Kit did include a Wedgie/Wedge Cap.  Some of our more Senior members may even have one.


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## Neill McKay (1 Apr 2011)

chaplainLD said:
			
		

> Is it permitted to wear a beret with mess kit under any circumstances!? Is there any precedent for this?



The dress regs provide:

"8.          Outerwear. The following outerwear may be worn or carried with mess dress as appropriate:
a.   headdress (worn outdoors);"

(Page 6B-2)


----------



## Pusser (1 Apr 2011)

I'm not sure how the myth that one doesn't wear headdress with mess kit got started, but it is indeed a myth.  I suppose it might have something to do with the fact that we don't normally wear headdress indoors (unless you're teaching a class in the Army) and mess kit isn't really worn for outdoor events.  Nevertheless, mess kit is a uniform and uniforms include headdress.  In fact, the last time I read the instructions on how to get new mess kits approved, they specifically stated that proposals shall include proposed headdress.  When I go to mess dinners, I tend to bring headdress as I will often take public transit home (rather than drive).


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## Privateer (1 Apr 2011)

I have seen a Navy officer wear, with Mess Kit, headdress that was either old RCN pattern, or current RN pattern:  wider and flatter that current CF (Navy DEU) pattern.  I assume that this is actually not permitted...?  I don't believe that he was old enough to have actually served pre-unification.


----------



## lethalLemon (1 Apr 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how the myth that one doesn't wear headdress with mess kit got started, but it is indeed a myth.  I suppose it might have something to do with the fact that we don't normally wear headdress indoors (unless you're teaching a class in the Army) and mess kit isn't really worn for outdoor events.  Nevertheless, mess kit is a uniform and uniforms include headdress.  In fact, the last time I read the instructions on how to get new mess kits approved, they specifically stated that proposals shall include proposed headdress.  When I go to mess dinners, I tend to bring headdress as I will often take public transit home (rather than drive).



It's only when the dining commences that it must be removed, correct?


----------



## PuckChaser (1 Apr 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> It's only when the dining commences that it must be removed, correct?



Or when a RSM sees you in a mess with headdress on. You'll commence removing the headdress after a one way discussion about it.  ;D


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Apr 2011)

Just looked in CFP 265. The various graphics with the orders of dress clearly show no headress with mess kit, however, Regimental, Branch, Corps or Element custom would be the norm, IMO.

I have never worn headdress with mess kit.


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## Pusser (1 Apr 2011)

I think the reason the pictures don't show headdress is because they show how it is normally worn and normally it is strictly an indoor uniform (where we don't normally wear headdress - especially at the dinner table!).  However, I do think it's appropriate to wear headdress to and from the dinner, while outside.  Having said that, if you drive up to the door of the mess in a car or taxi, then I don't see a huge issue.  Admittedly, I'm the only guy I know who takes the bus in mess kit - but it looks so good with the boatcloak!  ;D


----------



## ekpiper (1 Apr 2011)

Pusser:

Did you get your boat cloak through Gieves?


----------



## Pusser (2 Apr 2011)

ekpiper said:
			
		

> Pusser:
> 
> Did you get your boat cloak through Gieves?



Alas no.  I couldn't afford the mortgage!  When I called Gieves about 20 years ago, they quoted me in the vicinity of $2000 for one.  The only thing I ended up buying from Gieves was the chain and lion-head frogs.  Even that cost me about $50.  I had my cloak made by a dressmaker in Barrie.  I went in one day on a whim and asked, "can you make me one of these?"  I gave her a picture and a written description.  It turned out beautifully and I'm the belle of the ball (in the winter anyway). ;D  As a garment, cloaks are pretty simple, so having one made by just about anyone shouldn't be too difficult.  The thing to remember is that it needs to be black wool (mine is melton) with a white satin lining.  It has a turndown collar and four buttons.  There is actually a special size button for boat cloaks, but I've never been able to find any, so I use regular size ones.

For the most part, Gieves and Hawkes have gotten out of the uniform business.  They'll still do it, but they're horrifically expensive ("Gieves the Thieves" my Brit friends call them).  The big military outfitter in the UK lately is G.D. Golding.  I don't know if Golding does them or not.  Another good place is Baun and Company Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth; however, when I asked them years ago about a boat cloak, they said they don't sell them.


----------



## medicineman (2 Apr 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Just looked in CFP 265. The various graphics with the orders of dress clearly show no headress with mess kit, however, Regimental, Branch, Corps or Element custom would be the norm, IMO.
> 
> I have never worn headdress with mess kit.



Nor have I - and I've never seen anywhere that states we're supposed to.

MM


----------



## ChaosTheory (3 Apr 2011)

I am in Kingston for the summer and I am needing to get my mess kit.

Andrei's here in kingston is expensive, over $800.  I have heard it is possible to get it cheaper elsewhere such as there is a guy in Burlington.  Since we have 10 people on course who need a mess kit we were looking for someone who might be able to offer us a group deal.

Does anyone know of alternative (see: cheaper) tailors in Ontario?


----------



## George Wallace (3 Apr 2011)

Sareon said:
			
		

> I am in Kingston for the summer and I am needing to get my mess kit.
> 
> Andrei's here in kingston is expensive, over $800.  I have heard it is possible to get it cheaper elsewhere such as there is a guy in Burlington.  Since we have 10 people on course who need a mess kit we were looking for someone who might be able to offer us a group deal.
> 
> Does anyone know of alternative (see: cheaper) tailors in Ontario?



When I was at the Armour School, we had a mass deal arranged where it was cheaper and still cost effective to fly a tailor in from Vancouver.  Anyone in the Combat Training Centre as invited to come in on the deal.  The guy came in for the initial fittings and also for the final fittings.  It was some time ago, so I forget how our Mess Kit arrived.  At the same time another person with connections at Boulet sized those who wanted boots and the deal worked out to fifty per cent off.  

So don't just look at tailors in Ontario, you may be surprised to find a cheaper deal outside of the province if you have enough people to get in with you.


----------



## ekpiper (4 Apr 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Alas no.  I couldn't afford the mortgage!  When I called Gieves about 20 years ago, they quoted me in the vicinity of $2000 for one.  The only thing I ended up buying from Gieves was the chain and lion-head frogs.  Even that cost me about $50.  I had my cloak made by a dressmaker in Barrie.  I went in one day on a whim and asked, "can you make me one of these?"  I gave her a picture and a written description.  It turned out beautifully and I'm the belle of the ball (in the winter anyway). ;D  As a garment, cloaks are pretty simple, so having one made by just about anyone shouldn't be too difficult.  The thing to remember is that it needs to be black wool (mine is melton) with a white satin lining.  It has a turndown collar and four buttons.  There is actually a special size button for boat cloaks, but I've never been able to find any, so I use regular size ones.
> 
> For the most part, Gieves and Hawkes have gotten out of the uniform business.  They'll still do it, but they're horrifically expensive ("Gieves the Thieves" my Brit friends call them).  The big military outfitter in the UK lately is G.D. Golding.  I don't know if Golding does them or not.  Another good place is Baun and Company Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth; however, when I asked them years ago about a boat cloak, they said they don't sell them.



Thanks for the advice, Pusser, I wish I had been more knowledgeable when I was in Portsmouth last year, but I guess hat there's always next time!  Gieves is still at 1250 pounds ex. VAT, so still ~$2000.



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> Nor have I - and I've never seen anywhere that states we're supposed to.
> 
> MM



I just found the reference, so here it is straight from the dress regs, Chapter 6, Section 1, Para 3.:



> 3. Navy Uniforms
> 
> a. Except as noted in sub-paragraph b., navy
> personnel shall wear the following
> ...



It follows along with other points for different branches of the Army, and also for the Air Force, but the point is that headdress is generally worn with Mess Dress.


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## Journeyman (4 Apr 2011)

> shall wear the following
> headdress:
> 
> (1) ceremonial, mess and service dress –
> ...


Wow....Mess kit, with your $2000 batman cape _and_ toque. I can see how you'd be the envy of the other bus riders   ;D


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## OldSolduer (4 Apr 2011)

Yes let my try that one out. My CF green toque and mess kit......common sense right?


----------



## Danjanou (4 Apr 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Yes let my try that one out. My CF green toque and mess kit......common sense right?



Well a mess dinner in Winterpeg in January............ 8)


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Apr 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Well a mess dinner in Winterpeg in January............ 8)



Not even then.


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## medicineman (4 Apr 2011)

Simply....ewwwwww.  

MM


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## Danjanou (4 Apr 2011)

Mind it would have to be a simply epic toque


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## OldSolduer (4 Apr 2011)

It would be a very cold day in Hell before I'd wear a toque with mess kit, you hosers....

I do like the one Doug is wearing though! ;D


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## Pusser (4 Apr 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Wow....Mess kit, with your $2000 batman cape _and_ toque. I can see how you'd be the envy of the other bus riders   ;D



You would not catch me dead wearing a toque with any uniform other than CADPAT or Naval Combat Dress.  I have always believed that the toque, while an excellent piece of operational kit, has no place on any form of dress uniform.

Cloaks are cool.


----------



## Pusser (22 Apr 2011)

Sareon said:
			
		

> I am in Kingston for the summer and I am needing to get my mess kit.
> 
> Andrei's here in kingston is expensive, over $800.  I have heard it is possible to get it cheaper elsewhere such as there is a guy in Burlington.  Since we have 10 people on course who need a mess kit we were looking for someone who might be able to offer us a group deal.
> 
> Does anyone know of alternative (see: cheaper) tailors in Ontario?



In all fairness, $800 for a custom-tailored suit of clothes is not that expensive.  Remember that you get what you pay for in life.  A high quality, well-tailored mess kit will last you a long time (just make sure the tailor puts in extra material at the seams for future "expansion" ;D).  Trying to go cheap will cost you in the long run when you have to replace it.


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## dimsum (22 Apr 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> In all fairness, $800 for a custom-tailored suit of clothes is not that expensive.  Remember that you get what you pay for in life.  A high quality, well-tailored mess kit will last you a long time (just make sure the tailor puts in extra material at the seams for future "expansion" ;D).  Trying to go cheap will cost you in the long run when you have to replace it.



I'll echo that $800 isn't bad.  Naval mess kit is usually more than that (around $1000 if I recall, of course it can be more than that.)


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## Cdnleaf (23 Apr 2011)

medicineman said:
			
		

> The Borden CANEX can arrange it - and you can pay on the credit plan if you don't have the 1K or so burning a hole in your pocket.  It's not that far from Toronto either.
> MM



:+1:   Borden Tailor thru the EME Kit Shop w/CANEX payment plan (though I'm not EME.)   :2c: go doeskin, IMO for the difference in price it's worth it.   Mess Kit is +++++ comfortable during those long mess dinners  :cheers:


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

The OP is in Kingston; the Canex in Kingston can also arrange a payment credit plan for Mess Kit (I believe that every Canex can do this for Mess Kits). 

Go with the Doeskin ... and note for the girls - theirs costs more. Mine was 1200 bucks from Andrei's 6 years ago.


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## PMedMoe (23 Apr 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Mine was 1200 bucks from Andrei's 6 years ago.



Yep, I paid $1300 for mine in Ottawa about two years ago but that included a dress shirt as well.  Love the doeskin.  Go for the metallic rank.


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## medicineman (23 Apr 2011)

Got mine from Andrei's in Frederiction - $900 with the vest and wool tux 7 years ago.

MM


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## REDinstaller (23 Apr 2011)

I echo the Doeskin as well. Andrei's in Edmonton has both in the window. The berthea looks like a faded table cloth compared to the doeskin.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2011)

Doeskin is the better looking and feeling material. However, if you're a smoker, a hot ash will blow a hole in doeskin faster than you can blink and there's no way to fix it. If something happens to barethea, it can be fixed with invisible stitching (done by hand by a tailor). So if your a rough and tumble kind of person, and a smoker, the cheaper barethea may be the way to go. I've been beating mine up regularly for over ten years, and it's still 'presentable'.


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Doeskin is the better looking and feeling material. However, if you're a smoker, a hot ash will blow a hole in doeskin faster than you can blink and there's no way to fix it. If something happens to barethea, it can be fixed with invisible stitching (done by hand by a tailor). So if your a rough and tumble kind of person, and a smoker, the cheaper barethea may be the way to go. I've been beating mine up regularly for over ten years, and it's still 'presentable'.



Finally; another smoker who is obviously rougher and tumbler than I for my doeskin is still fine after some doozies of Mess Dinners. Lots of extras, but no holes!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2011)

Quit smoking about 4 years ago, after we last drank together, but it's not worth switching to doeskin and retireing in October


----------



## armyvern (23 Apr 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Quit smoking about 4 years ago, after we last drank together, but it's not worth switching to doeskin and retireing in October



Retiring!!?? 

4 years ago ... I must be getting oldsheimers; I could have sworn that you cruised the streets of TO with me while I scouted out a toy store and received parking tickets (thanks to a certain someone) just a year or so ago ... obviously not.

Time for me to retire too.  :blotto:


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## Rheostatic (6 May 2011)

Given that one would wear full size medals with a business suit, and miniatures with evening wear (ref), which would be appropriate for a civilian at a mess dinner wearing a business suit?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 May 2011)

I'm not sure about a suit, but if you wear a blazer, it's full sized. I really can't recall seeing someone with medals in a full suit. Doesn't mean it can't be done I suppose.


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## Pusser (6 May 2011)

Given that a mess dinner is a formal evening affair, it is not strictly correct to wear a business suit, although this has become acceptable in Canada (i.e. I've never seen anyone turned away for showing up in a business suit instead of black/white tie).  For this reason, it has also become more or less acceptable to wear miniatures with a business suit in Canada when attending an evening function.  In short, one should wear miniatures with a business suit in this context.  In fact, one would really stand out (and not in a good way) if one were to wear full-size medals here.

Another option is to spring for a tux.  It's not that difficult to find a used one in good shape for a reasonable price and it's always useful to have one on hand for that last minure invitation to a wedding, mess dinner or murder mystery party....


----------



## Rheostatic (6 May 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Given that a mess dinner is a formal evening affair, it is not strictly correct to wear a business suit, although this has become acceptable in Canada (i.e. I've never seen anyone turned away for showing up in a business suit instead of black/white tie).  For this reason, it has also become more or less acceptable to wear miniatures with a business suit in Canada when attending an evening function.  In short, one should wear miniatures with a business suit in this context.  In fact, one would really stand out (and not in a good way) if one were to wear full-size medals here.
> 
> Another option is to spring for a tux.  It's not that difficult to find a used one in good shape for a reasonable price and it's always useful to have one on hand for that last minure invitation to a wedding, mess dinner or murder mystery party....


I recognize that a tux would be the proper choice, but it's not always practical for everyone. At the event in question business suit has been named as an acceptable alternative. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 May 2011)

So here's one I couldn't find an answer to anywhere, and my WO is confused about it as well.  I have a mess dinner to attend, and while it's not the fancy mess dress, the boys will all be wearing their blues, with the white dress shirts and bowties.

I'm pregnant, and I have the maternity DEU's, but no one seems to know what I'm supposed to wear for this thing.  I can't fit a normal white mess blouse now, without my belly hanging out, and no one knows if I'm expected to find a white maternity blouse to wear with a bowtie.

Anyone ever seen a pregnant chick at a mess dinner?  What was she wearing?  No one can answer whether I just wear my blue shirt with the cardigan, or source out a white one.  My CoC is working on it, but I wanted to know if anyone here had seen anything of the like.  I know they changed the maternity DEUs within the last two years --- the smock is no longer, and there's now this old-man-style button-up wool cardigan.  Very attractive, if I may say so.   :  

Anyway, if you can help, thanks so much.  If you just want to have a giggle at the thought of how hideous this uniform is, feel free to stop by the mess dinner, I'll be there for the giggles.   ;D


----------



## Michael OLeary (13 May 2011)

Tell your CoC that since you have no appropriate military dress for the occasion that you will attend in appropriate civilian attire (and make your own reasoned decision on what that is). The important part is your attendance, not the details of dress when you are in a situation none of them are ever likely to experience. Tell them you're choosing common sense over bastardized ritual and tradition for the sake of over-sensitive male egos who will decide that any solution is inappropriate in some way.


----------



## Rheostatic (13 May 2011)

... and feel free to paraphrase.


----------



## Journeyman (13 May 2011)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> ... and feel free to paraphrase.


Hell no. Change 'you/your' to 'I/my,' add memo formatting, and it's good to go  :nod:


----------



## Pusser (13 May 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Tell your CoC that since you have no appropriate military dress for the occasion that you will attend in appropriate civilian attire (and make your own reasoned decision on what that is). The important part is your attendance, not the details of dress when you are in a situation none of them are ever likely to experience. Tell them you're choosing common sense over bastardized ritual and tradition for the sake of over-sensitive male egos who will decide that any solution is inappropriate in some way.



BONG, BONG, BONG, BONG - STOP THINKING, STOP THINKING, STOP THINKING - COMMON SENSE SUPPRESSION TEAM CLOSE UP - BONG, BONG, BONG, BONG ...

I have seen women at mess dinners in maternity dress, but it was always the old bib style and really no different from day to day wear.  Mr O'Leary, however, has said it best.


----------



## OldSolduer (13 May 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> BONG, BONG, BONG, BONG - STOP THINKING, STOP THINKING, STOP THINKING - COMMON SENSE SUPPRESSION TEAM CLOSE UP - BONG, BONG, BONG, BONG ...
> 
> I have seen women at mess dinners in maternity dress, but it was always the old bib style and really no different from day to day wear.  Mr O'Leary, however, has said it best.



we have an outbreak of common sense going on here....stop it!! 

UNBELEIVERS!! BLASPHEMERS!!!


----------



## Cansky (13 May 2011)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> So here's one I couldn't find an answer to anywhere, and my WO is confused about it as well.  I have a mess dinner to attend, and while it's not the fancy mess dress, the boys will all be wearing their blues, with the white dress shirts and bowties.
> 
> I'm pregnant, and I have the maternity DEU's, but no one seems to know what I'm supposed to wear for this thing.  I can't fit a normal white mess blouse now, without my belly hanging out, and no one knows if I'm expected to find a white maternity blouse to wear with a bowtie.
> 
> ...



The appropriate dress for you would be your maternity DEU's or equivalent civilians if approval is gained from the chain of command.  You wouldn't be required to have a different shirt, as the normal CF maternity DEU shirt will work.  

The last mess dinner that I went to (last summer) the 8 month pregnant officer wore a appropriate gown that fit her well for pregnancy as well as floor length.  However the one before that wore her maternity deu's. 

Ultimately it will be up to your Chain of Command.  Your approval for dress will come from your RSM or your unit equivalent.  

Hope this helps


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 May 2011)

Thanks very much for all the help, everyone.  Since I don't have appropriate civilian maternity wear -- only my wedding dress, and a bunch of big t-shirts and maternity jeans, I'll wear the DEUs with the blue shirt.  They got rid of the smock thing, which is nice, and hopefully it won't be sweltering, so the cardigan won't kill me, hahaha!  

Thanks so much again.   :nod:


----------



## kratz (13 May 2011)

*Gasp*   You are giving up a good reason to go out and buy a nice outfit?
If you do it right, with alterations, it will be useful later too.


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 May 2011)

kratz said:
			
		

> *Gasp*   You are giving up a good reason to go out and buy a nice outfit?
> If you do it right, with alterations, it will be useful later too.



Hahaha, being a girl, I should love shopping -- but Trenton area is not the greatest for maternity stuff, unless I want the shirt that says, "I'm what happened in Vegas" with an arrow pointing to the belly.   ;D


----------



## Danjanou (13 May 2011)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> unless I want the shirt that says, "I'm what happened in Vegas" with an arrow pointing to the belly.   ;D



I vaguely remember some mess dinners I've attended where that would have probably fit in.  8)


----------



## Sparkplugs (16 May 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I vaguely remember some mess dinners I've attended where that would have probably fit in.  8)



My favourite part of this post is 'vaguely remember'...   ;D

One more question or two, hopefully this is the last of them.  My CoC has decided on me wearing civilian clothes to the dinner.  The selection of maternity dresses, are very very slim in this area.  Does it have to be floor length, or is a little longer than knee length still appropriate?  My other question is this: My hair -- while wearing civvies, do I have more freedom with it, or is the best idea still to stick with a bun?

Thanks so much, everyone, you've been wonderfully helpful already.


----------



## smale436 (16 May 2011)

Regarding the hair, I attend pretty much every mess dinner on the wing I'm at being a musician with the wing band. (I'm not a 871 trade musician) There are a lot of civilian women at various units so I've seen many women in civilian dresses (or sometimes pants) Some were pregnant and some weren't. In any case, many wore their hair down. I'm sure I saw a few with hair up in some form or another but I rarely have seen buns being worn. I'm pretty sure if you are not in uniform that night the hair regulations will not be an issue.


----------



## Sparkplugs (16 May 2011)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> Regarding the hair, I attend pretty much every mess dinner on the wing I'm at being a musician with the wing band. (I'm not a 871 trade musician) There are a lot of civilian women at various units so I've seen many women in civilian dresses (or sometimes pants) Some were pregnant and some weren't. In any case, many wore their hair down. I'm sure I saw a few with hair up in some form or another but I rarely have seen buns being worn. I'm pretty sure if you are not in uniform that night the hair regulations will not be an issue.



Perfect!  Thank you so much for the quick response.


----------



## Neill McKay (16 May 2011)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> The selection of maternity dresses, are very very slim in this area.



Jeez, that's no good, is it?  I'd think you'd want just the opposite...!



> Does it have to be floor length, or is a little longer than knee length still appropriate?



I'm not an expert in womens' clothing, but I do attend black-tie events on civvie street from time to time.  It's completely normal to see women wearing dresses as you describe; floor-length gowns are sometimes seen but are not universal by any means.  I would hope that nobody expects a service member (or anyone else) to buy a formal gown in a maternity pattern.  Something tells me it would get about as much use as a prom dress.


----------



## Sparkplugs (17 May 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Jeez, that's no good, is it?  I'd think you'd want just the opposite...!
> 
> I'm not an expert in womens' clothing, but I do attend black-tie events on civvie street from time to time.  It's completely normal to see women wearing dresses as you describe; floor-length gowns are sometimes seen but are not universal by any means.  I would hope that nobody expects a service member (or anyone else) to buy a formal gown in a maternity pattern.  Something tells me it would get about as much use as a prom dress.



Well, I found one -- apparently, there are a few prom-like floor-length dresses that are built to accommodate women who are big only in the belly -- when I asked the woman at Sears about it, she said that they had a lot of pregnant high school girls looking for prom dresses, so they had to bring some in that would do.  First off,   , but I'm glad I found one.  It was on a really good sale so I didn't spend a fortune on it -- to be honest, probably less than I would have spent to get my DEU pants tailored, dry cleaned and pressed.  I don't know if I'll ever be able to wear it again, but worse comes to worse, that's why kijiji exists, hahaha, so I can sell my prego prom dress!

Thanks again, all.


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## redseer (29 Jun 2012)

So my wife just got her mess kit back from the tailor, and something was wrong - red shoulder-straps!  So this sent me looking into both the RCA standing orders (SO) and the CF Dress instructions (DI).
The main point of confusion is that the  CF dress instructions (pg 256) stipulate that females wear link buttons on their jacket, but the RCA standing orders  (pg 104) doesn't mention it.  In fact their pictures don't appear to have the buttons either.  
So does anyone have any experience in this matter, and if so where does someone buy link buttons?

A second and hopefully less serious point is that the DI indicate infantry cuffs vs. RCA SO indicate surgeons cuffs.  I thought that surgeons cuffs meant that there are buttons and the cuff can be opened.

Also, is it common to wear headdress with mess kit if outdoors?  RCA SO states yes...

I'll included the relevant references, if anyone knows the bbc code for spoiler tags so I can shrink it down, that would be appreciated.

Cheers.



			
				Dress Instruction said:
			
		

> 5. Standard Options. The following are standard options for the universal pattern army mess dress (Figures 5B1-3 and 5B1-4). Members of branches/regiments with no authorized differences
> from the universal pattern shall wear that pattern and these options:
> a. Jacket. The environmental facing colour of midnight blue on collar, shoulder-straps and cuffs. Infantry cuffs. Gold officers’ cuff embellishment. For males, plain jacket front without buttons or button-holes.* For females, plain jacket front with single link buttons.*
> b. Waistcoat/Cummerbund. Midnight blue waistcoat, with four button-holes, for senior officers and above only. During the summer dress period, only a cummerbund is worn.
> ...





			
				RCA Standing Orders said:
			
		

> 2. Artillery Pattern Mess Dress. This Mess Dress (No 2) was authorized in FMC 5250-2 (Comd) 23 October 1986. It is based on the Universal Army pattern which consists of a scarlet jacket with shawl collar, midnight blue trousers and midnight blue waistcoat. Regimental detail is based on facings, collars and cuffs in midnight blue and a broad scarlet stripe on the trousers. Detailed specifications are available from Regimental Headquarters. The Male Mess Dress is illustrated at Figure 16. The Female Mess Dress (with skirt) is at Figure 17. Unless otherwise stated Male and Female orders are the same. Artillery Pattern Mess Dress is as follows:
> a. Jacket
> (1) Material
> (a) Officers/CWO’s - scarlet doeskin; and
> ...


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## jeffb (29 Jun 2012)

redseer said:
			
		

> Also, is it common to wear headdress with mess kit if outdoors?  RCA SO states yes...
> Cheers.



Yes, the standing orders now say that head dress will be worn outdoors. However, I have not yet seen anyone do this and standing orders notwithstanding, I can't imagine it ever happening here at 2 RCHA. Luckily it doesn't mention what the head dress is so if forced to wear head dress, I'm wearing the Yukon Cap in the summer.


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## fraserdw (29 Jun 2012)

All requirements for head dress with mess kit were dropped last year in a CC email on the RSM net.


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## 2010newbie (4 Feb 2013)

I have seen photos of RCAF mess dress worn with boutonnieres for weddings, but I can't seem to find a reference for it. I have found many US sites that state they are never worn with uniforms, but nothing specific to CDN practice. Is it acceptable to wear a boutonniere with mess kit?


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## Sixrac (26 Mar 2013)

Hi does anyone have an example of an air force CF and mess kit for the health care administrator branch ? I just switched from the artillery as an NCO and now i'm an HCA officer in the air force... (the transfer was faster if i switched to air force). I knew everything i needed to know on my uniforms by experience and I don't fully understand the A-DH-265-000. I need a real picture to help me understand. Thanks


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## mikeninercharlie (26 Mar 2013)

Simple, HCAs assigned the uniform of the blue suited master race wear a gold coloured, winged caduceus above their name tag when in service dress...  While at fancy events, they wear uniform identical to the one pictured with a sanguine cummerbund, scuffed oxfords and a bad attitude as they realize that they could have had a classy red drinking jacket had they waited... Call the Adjutant/RSM of the nearest Fd Amb, they'll sort you out.


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## McG (26 Mar 2013)

Where does the new RCAF mess kit stand on the way to becoming the new Air Force standard?


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Mar 2013)

The new pattern RCAF mess kit is about to be approved AFAIK, in short order (I heard it would be avail in May).  (pic attached of new and current pattern)

HCA would wear the Medical Branch accessories with it.  From the older copy of 265 I was able to get this (which isn't relevant   ^-^), I'd have to look at the current one to verify but:

Medical Branch. Surgeon cuffs. Sanguine
waistcoat for officers andCWOs; female waistcoat
with three buttons/buttonholes. Cherry trouser/skirt
stripe. No gloves.


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## mikeninercharlie (26 Mar 2013)

The spec you have listed are for the army's medical branch, they are not applicable to the current air force mess dress. As for the pic of the new and improved mess dress, I'm not surprised to see that scuffed oxfords are still the standard in the RCAF!


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Mar 2013)

Modified my post.  

That is the pic that was used in the briefs.   :nod:


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## dimsum (27 Mar 2013)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> Or, to put it another way, is the RCAF adopting pre-unification RCAF style of stripes above the General's stripe to identify rank?



From what I can tell from the pic, the only major difference between the new RCAF mess kit and the pre-unification one is the shape of the lapels.


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## McG (27 Mar 2013)

The lack of epaulettes.


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## George Wallace (27 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> The lack of epaulettes.



The epaulettes are there; embroidered.  Lack of Shoulder Boards/Slippons makes for serious tailoring as one progresses through the ranks.


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## McG (27 Mar 2013)

Embroidered epaulettes are in the picture of the current RCAF mess uniform.  The new/future uniform picture was embedded in the word doc.


----------



## Jed (27 Mar 2013)

So the gold stripe in the trousers is for Canadian Air Cavalry ala the US?


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## Monsoon (27 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> It is definitely the post-unification style stripes and not the pre-unification style.


Unless I'm mistaken, the gold stripe on the proposed RCAF mess dress pants is a new addition as well. Let me assure you it's a mixed blessing: that stripe adds a good $300-400 to the price of mess dress, at current gold prices.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2013)

The gold stripe was on the pre-unification mess kit, but not on the current one, and added back to the 'incoming' one.

A few pictures here, 2/3s of the way down.  Female mess kit circa '67 bottom right picture here.


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## jpjohnsn (27 Mar 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Unless I'm mistaken, the gold stripe on the proposed RCAF mess dress pants is a new addition as well. Let me assure you it's a mixed blessing: that stripe adds a good $300-400 to the price of mess dress, at current gold prices.


Looking at the new mess dress and owning a pre-unification one (I rescued it from the dustbin when they were renovating a legion near me), there are very few differences between the two.  The new one has kept the shawl collar from the outgoing midnight blue mess dress (and because of that, wings and medals are worn on the breast and not the lapel as they were in the old RCAF) and the trousers are cut slightly different (no stirrups, for example).  The gold braid on the cuffs and trousers were features of the old mess dress as is the white waistcoat.

Looks like I'm gonna have to start putting some pennies nickles together to get one of these when the final word comes out.  Weird that the rumour is for May and not this weekend for the Air Force birthday.


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## Jungle (27 Mar 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> It is definitely the post-unification style stripes and not the pre-unification style.



I guess the General can spend $1000+ on clothes, but he can't afford a tin of shoe polish...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (27 Mar 2013)

His bat boy should be fired I guess.  lol


----------



## jpjohnsn (27 Mar 2013)

Hopefully the pictures are viewable here.  Compare LGen Blondin's dress to the old RCAF version (the line drawing is from a copy of a 1958 version of the CAP-6 RCAF dress manual).  It's not a bad blending of the old RCAF mess dress and the CF midnight blue version.

The blue in this pic looks really dark but it is actually very close to Blondin's mess dress.  





and


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## dimsum (28 Mar 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Unless I'm mistaken, the gold stripe on the proposed RCAF mess dress pants is a new addition as well. Let me assure you it's a mixed blessing: that stripe adds a good $300-400 to the price of mess dress, at current gold prices.



That's the first thing I thought as well, having both RCN and RCAF mess kit.  At least I could potentially re-use my RCN waistcoat (minus buttons.....or not?  Muahahahaha.)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2013)

They should also learn to tie a real bow tie, instead of the $10.00 tuxedo rental one like the General is wearing.

After all, should you follow someone that can't master the art of tying a bow tie?  ;D


----------



## Jungle (28 Mar 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> After all, should you follow someone that can't master the art of tying a bow tie?  ;D



Yeah... unfortunately, bow ties and the colour of stripes on pants are more important then weapon handling for far too many people in the CAF.


----------



## dimsum (28 Mar 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> They should also learn to tie a real bow tie, instead of the $10.00 tuxedo rental one like the General is wearing.
> 
> After all, should you follow someone that can't master the art of tying a bow tie?  ;D



What happened to the tradition of being called out (and buying rounds) for having a fake bow-tie?  I guess my old NAVRES Wardroom taught me well.


----------



## Strike (28 Mar 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Yeah... unfortunately, bow ties and the colour of stripes on pants are more important then weapon handling for far too many people in the CAF.



It's called personal pride, and it should be in EVERYTHING you do.


----------



## Jungle (28 Mar 2013)

Thanks for the lesson...  :


----------



## Strike (28 Mar 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Thanks for the lesson...  :



I can teach you how to tie one if you want.  I've known how to do it since I was 13.   ;D (poke poke)


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> I can teach you how to tie one if you want.  I've known how to do it since I was 13.   ;D (poke poke)



All that time spent around Chippendales dancers?


----------



## Jungle (28 Mar 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> I can teach you how to tie one if you want.  I've known how to do it since I was 13.   ;D (poke poke)



No thanks... I don't even own a mess kit.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Rumour you say?  Let me direct you to the "new RCAF mess kit" CANFORGEN CANAIRGEN 15/13, esp the part about GO ranks  >



UNCLAS CANAIRGEN 15/13 C AIR FORCE 18/13   

SUBJ: RCAF MESS DRESS  

1. IT IS MY PLEASURE TO ANNOUNCE THE NEW RCAF MESS DRESS. THE CHANGE WAS INSPIRED BY THE INTENT TO BETTER CONNECT OUR MEMBERS WITH THEIR RICH HERITAGE AND STRENGTHEN THE IDENTITY OF THE MODERN RCAF 
  
2. THE NEWLY DESIGNED MESS DRESS PRESERVES THE CURRENT MESS DRESS CUT AND PATTERN HOWEVER THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE TO THE FABRIC, BRAID, COLOR AND BUTTONS FOR BOTH MALE AND FEMALE DRESS   
(A) THE FABRIC IS 100 PERCENT WOOL BARATHEA   
(B) THE FABRIC COLOR IS AIR FORCE BLUE FOR JACKET, PANT AND SKIRT   
(C) THERE ARE TWO V SHAPE COLUMNS OF BUTTONS ON THE JACKET   
(D) FEMALES HAVE THE CHOICE OF LONG TRADITIONAL SKIRT OR PANT   
(E) THE FEMALE JACKET MATCHES THE MALE JACKET PATTERN   
(F) THE FULL SATIN BLUE SHAWL COLLAR WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED   
(G) A WHITE WAISTCOAT WILL BE WORN BY CWOS AND OFFICERS   
(H) THE RCAF TARTAN CUMMERBUND WILL BE WORN BY MWOS AND BELOW   
(I) A GOLD BRAID ON EACH SIDE OF PANT HAS BEEN ADDED FOR CWOS AND OFFICERS   
(J) THE BLUE BRAID ON EACH SIDE OF PANT WILL REMAIN FOR MWOS AND BELOW   
(K) GENERAL OFFICERS (GO) WILL NO LONGER WEAR SHOULDER BOARD AS RANK INSIGNIA. GOS WILL HAVE THEIR RANK DISPLAYED ON BOTH SLEEVES IN THE TRADITIONAL RCAF GOLD BRAID RANK INSIGNIA PATTERN   
(L) RANK INSIGNIA FOR NCMS WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED. 
  
3. WHITE MESS DRESS JACKET PATTERN WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED HOWEVER THE BUTTON PLACEMENT WILL MATCH THE AIR FORCE BLUE JACKET. THE WEARING OF RANK SHOULDER BOARDS ON THE WHITE MESS DRESS JACKET WILL REMAIN UNCHANGED FOR ALL OFFICER RANKS   

4. THE RCAF MESS DRESS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE IN SEP 13. IT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT THOSE WHO REQUIRE MESS DRESS WAIT UNTIL THAT DATE TO PURCHASE THEIR MESS DRESS   

5. THE NEW RCAF MESS DRESS IS AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR EFFECTIVE AS OF THE DTG OF THIS MESSAGE. MEMBERS WHO HAVE PURCHASED THE OLD MESS DRESS PRIOR TO THIS DATE MAY CONTINUE TO WEAR THIS MESS DRESS. NO MODIFICATIONS WILL BE MADE TO THE OLD MESS DRESS


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## George Wallace (7 Jun 2013)

I see some resemblance to the old CF Mess Kit, with the exception of the stripes on pants.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

Biggest visible changes, IMO, are the gold stripes on the pants and white waistcoat for CWOs and above.  MWOs and below will wear the RCAF tartan cummerbund with blue stripe on pants.


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## Towards_the_gap (7 Jun 2013)

I see they nipped countless hours of army hilarity in the bud by renaming the 'official' colour...

...urban legend tells us it was originally (ie RFC days), Crab Blue....


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## Tank Troll (7 Jun 2013)

Had me right up to the Cummerbun part, god I hate those things glad no one forces use in the Armour corps to wear them.............anymore ;D


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## George Wallace (7 Jun 2013)

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Had me right up to the Cummerbun part, god I hate those things glad no one forces use in the Armour corps to wear them.............anymore ;D



What!  You don't like the "Crumb Catcher"?  Damn fine idea that.  After the dinner, if you have the munchies, you may find some in your cummerbund.  Who says the "good idea Faerie" didn't have some ideas come to fruition?   ;D


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## Strike (7 Jun 2013)

I'm due for a new set (I think the material keeps shrinking!) and was holding back for this message.  Might be able to get a set done by the time I go back to work.  Wonder what the cost will be though now that we have to pay for the gold stripes.  At least I can save the gold braid from the rank of my current jacket.


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## George Wallace (7 Jun 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> I'm due for a new set (I think the material keeps shrinking!) and was holding back for this message.  Might be able to get a set done by the time I go back to work.  Wonder what the cost will be though now that we have to pay for the gold stripes.  At least I can save the gold braid from the rank of my current jacket.



The costs of Mess Kit hasn't changed much over the years.  "Have to pay for the gold stripes"?  Ummm?  You always had to pay for Mess Kit and its accoutrements out of your own pocket.   It is up to you if you want the expensive or the cheap fabrics, ranks, buttons & bows.


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## Strike (7 Jun 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The costs of Mess Kit hasn't changed much over the years.  "Have to pay for the gold stripes"?  Ummm?  You always had to pay for Mess Kit and its accoutrements out of your own pocket.   It is up to you if you want the expensive or the cheap fabrics, ranks, buttons & bows.



The previous AF mess kit didn't have the gold stripe and the material was cheap cost-wise.  This 'new' mess kit is likely going to cost quite a bit more especially considering the cost of the gold braid and change of material.  With the previous mess kit one had the choice of having real gold braid or just yellow braid.  Pretty sure the stripes on the pants/skirts are going to be of the real variety and not the cheap yellow stuff that we have on our DEUs, hence the increased cost.


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## Stonegeneral (7 Jun 2013)

Given the similarities in design and material, my guess is that the new RCAF mess dress will be in the same price range as the RCN pattern.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

Which is... 

Suspect the MWO and below pattern will be about..what $300? less without the gold stripe and no requirement for a fancy _Capt Stubbing _ waistcoat?


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## Stonegeneral (7 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Which is...
> 
> Suspect the MWO and below pattern will be about..what $300? less without the gold stripe and no requirement for a fancy _Capt Stubbing _ waistcoat?



Well, using Andrei Master Tailor's pricing as an example, NCMs (save for CWO) would be looking at about a $100 increase in cost due to the material used (so approx $875-900). Officers would be looking at about $1270 minimum for 2Lts.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

Rgr.  Tks.  That was a  :facepalm: moment on my part to be honest;  I was on their site earlier to see if there was any info on the new one.  SMRT!


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## Strike (7 Jun 2013)

Stonegeneral said:
			
		

> Well, using Andrei Master Tailor's pricing as an example, NCMs (save for CWO) would be looking at about a $100 increase in cost due to the material used (so approx $875-900). Officers would be looking at about $1270 minimum for 2Lts.



Bought my mess kit including a white jacket for a little over $500, and that was with gold braid for the rank.  The $875-900 price seems a bit steep for the NCM mess kit.


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## Stonegeneral (7 Jun 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> Bought my mess kit including a white jacket for a little over $500, and that was with gold braid for the rank.  The $875-900 price seems a bit steep for the NCM mess kit.



It's quite possible it will turn out less in the end. I was running the math based on the pricing Andrei's has online for the Barathea naval mess kit (the closest example to the incoming RCAF version) and subtracting the cost of the vest.


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## Tank Troll (9 Jun 2013)

Got mine from Andre's in 08 when I was promoted to Sgt it was $1200 no boots or spurs


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## luke_l (2 Aug 2013)

Andrei's has pricing for the new RCAF mess kit now... Around $1350 plus tax for officers, vs $758 plus tax for the old one. Can't remember what the NCM version costs, but it's only a couple hundred bucks cheaper. The $1350 includes a $169 vest you need to buy, but I think all you need after that is to buy a shirt, whereas with the old one you needed a shirt and cummerbund. Still over a $500 difference though.

They will take orders for the old one up until sept 15... Just sayin'.


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Aug 2013)

Got fitted today for the new mess kit (NCM).  Jacket and pants came to $1045.  I had a chance to look at one and they are very sharp looking and the material felt good.  However when I looked at the quote I have to admit I thought about going with the older style for a second or two.  I still had to get the rest of the EIS yet too so....but I went with the new one.  The one I looked at was for a Major;  jacket, pants and waistcoat alone was just over $1600.  I put mine on the CANEX plan, and added the shirt, suspenders, bowtie and cummerbund all to the bill.  Seems less painful that way; only leaves me with cufflinks,shirt studs and Wings to get from Joe Drouin.

I was also told that, at this time, they only have the material for the male one and not the female ???.


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## once a gunner (25 Oct 2013)

I just ordered mine today...$1205 for the mess kit (SGT) + shirt, tie, suspenders and cummerbund....+ tax for a grand total of $1536  not to mention the $180 bucks in mini medals, and 100 bucks for buttons and wings....yikes  oh well I'II look sexy  :nod:....now to find somewhere to where this get up more than 4 times a year.....


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## once a gunner (25 Oct 2013)

what's most peoples opinion on the shirt??  wing tip collar or the normal shirt collar?  both are authorized?


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## Eye In The Sky (26 Oct 2013)

I went with the Wing collar/French cuffs.  Mine was about $1450 (jacket, pants, suspenders, shirt, bowtie, cummerbund) after taxes.  

I saw some nice patent leather oxfords (SWAT IRRC) at the Canex I might pick up to finish it off.


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## Lightguns (9 Dec 2013)

New rank is now authorized for mess kit, at your expense.  DO not have the ref but read it last Friday.


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## vonGarvin (9 Dec 2013)

I read it as well. Change from current to new rank is voluntary, until you get promoted.  Or demoted, I assume.


----------



## shootemup604 (9 Dec 2013)

Could someone post the fulltext of the CANARMYGEN?


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## Grunt_031 (9 Dec 2013)

CANFORGEN 194/13 COMD CA 038/13 051700Z DEC 13
CA OFFICER (OFFR) MESS DRESS RANK (RK)
UNCLASSIFIED



THIS MSG APPLIES TO ALL CAF OFFRS, REG AND RES, WHO WEAR THE ARMY UNIFORM 


FOLLOWING THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE NEW ARMY OFFICER RANKS BY THE MND, ADM(MAT) IS WORKING TOWARDS MANUFACTURE AND DISTRIBUTION OF DEU RK IN 2014 


FOR MESS DRESS UNIFORMS, ALL CORPS/BRANCHES HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED THE CA DESIGN AND DIMENSIONS OF THE EMBROIDERED STARS, CROWNS, AND CROSSED BATON/SWORD DEVICES. THE DIVISION G1S HAVE ALSO RECEIVED THE SAME INFO FOR PROMULGATION THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND (COC) 


SIMILAR TO ARMY DEU RK BADGES, CORPS AND REGIMENTS MAY APPLY FOR DEVIATIONS IN PATTERN BASED ON TRADITION. WHILE THE CA ACKNOWLEDGES THAT THERE WILL BE CORPS AND REGIMENTAL LATITUDE IN THE SELECTION OF SUPPLIERS AND PATTERN, THE DIMENSIONS OF ALL MESS DRESS RK DEVICES WILL BE CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT THE CAF AS PROMULGATED AT PARA 3. CORPS OR REGIMENTS THAT DECIDE TO DEVIATE FROM THE STANDARD PATTERN WILL SUBMIT THAT PATTERN THROUGH THE COC FOR APPROVAL BY CA HQ AND FURTHERANCE TO DHH 


ALL GENERAL OFFRS, COLONELS AND OFFRS WITHOUT CORPS OR REGIMENTAL AFFILIATIONS WILL ADOPT THE CA STANDARD PATTERN FOR MESS DRESS RK AS PROMULGATED AT PARA 2 


OFFRS MAY ELECT TO CONVERT TO THE NEW SYSTEM OF MESS DRESS RK UPON RECEIPT OF THIS MSG. OFFRS WHO WEAR THE CAF STYLE OF RK ARE GRANDFATHERED TO MAINTAIN THEIR CURRENT RANK ON THEIR MESS DRESS UNIFORM SHOULD THEY SO DESIRE 


EFFECTIVE FORTHWITH, ALL OFFRS WHO WEAR CA MESS DRESS UNIFORM MUST CONVERT TO THE NEW RK UPON PROMOTION 


QUESTIONS MAY BE DIRECTED TO THE ARMY G1 HERITAGE, PATRICK BRYDEN, AT 613-415-7707 OR PATRICK.BRYDEN AT FORCES.GC.CA


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## my72jeep (9 Dec 2013)

Love this Line NDHQ telling me I "MUST CONVERT" the rank on the Mess Kit I payed $1000+ for if I get Promoted.

EFFECTIVE FORTHWITH, ALL OFFRS WHO WEAR CA MESS DRESS UNIFORM MUST CONVERT TO THE NEW RK UPON PROMOTION


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## CombatDoc (9 Dec 2013)

Well, the solution then is simple - don't get promoted. Otherwise, upon promotion get your tailor to remove your current rank stripes and replace with pips and crowns, since you'd need to get new rank anyways.


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## George Wallace (9 Dec 2013)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> Well, the solution then is simple - don't get promoted. Otherwise, upon promotion get your tailor to remove your current rank stripes and replace with pips and crowns, since you'd need to get new rank anyways.



Such a simple solution......Wonder why someone never thought of that before?


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## PuckChaser (9 Dec 2013)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Love this Line NDHQ telling me I "MUST CONVERT" the rank on the Mess Kit I payed $1000+ for if I get Promoted.



They also ordered you to spend that $1000, so I'm pretty sure they can tell you what $50 rank to put on it.


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## dapaterson (9 Dec 2013)

Option B: Realize that since you had it made you've expanded your horizons and get a new set made up to accommodate your newly enhanced world view (and waist).


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## my72jeep (9 Dec 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They also ordered you to spend that $1000, so I'm pretty sure they can tell you what $50 rank to put on it.


Nope I'm CIC I bought it for the LCF.......... :sarcasm:


----------



## shootemup604 (3 Jan 2014)

Thanks for posting the CANFORGEN - as everything is still stood down for the holidays it hasn't yet come down from the CoC yet...


----------



## slayer/raptor (3 Jan 2014)

Anyone know if there are any other changes to the mess kit being made with the changing of the ranks? i.e.: gold bullion replacement of the epaulettes, etc.

Thanks.


----------



## Ostrozac (3 Jan 2014)

slayer/raptor said:
			
		

> Anyone know if there are any other changes to the mess kit being made with the changing of the ranks? i.e.: gold bullion replacement of the epaulettes, etc.
> 
> Thanks.



As mentioned in the CANFORGEN, some regiments/corps/branches are going to apply for non-standard rank badges, so make sure to check with your Regimental HQ (or equivalent) before changing your ranks, or you may have to change them twice! It wasn't specified which units are going with non-standard rank badges, but I suspect rifle regiments will wear black rank insignia and the int branch will wear silver.

There are changes coming to some DEU accoutrements (especially shoulder titles), but I'm not tracking any more changes to mess dress besides the rank badges.


----------



## krimynal (16 Jan 2015)

this might sound dumb but when do you buy the mess kit ? do you HAVE to get one , or it's not a necessity ?

Don't get me wrong, it look REALLY Nice , and speaking with my stepfather who use to be a MWO in Valcartier, he tells me all these story about those really great party where people were wearing mess kit and all the wife's had to come in complete dress also.  Sounded amazing, but when do you "need" to get one , if you ever do .... ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jan 2015)

NCMs, mess kit is optional.  FYI the new NCM pattern comes to about $1200 once you throw in the tux shirt and other stuff you need, and that's going with the issued oxfords for footwear.  I got mine on the Canex plan rather than shelling it out all at once.

Officers, roughly 6 months from being commissioned IAW the CF Dress Instructions, they are supposed to have a mess kit.

For the amount of functions Jr Ranks actually attend, most of them are just happy enough with DEU/tux shirt/bow tie.  Considerably smaller investment than going all out for the mess kit, especially when you are at the lower end of your earning per annum, etc.


----------



## krimynal (16 Jan 2015)

so you could attend some mess dinner with deu's as a NCM and it would be accepted ?

**edit** 

as I read for a 2ND time your comment , yes it would.

but there is no one stopping me from getting one if I feel like it , except my paycheck lol !


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jan 2015)

From CFP 265 - Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 2, Section 1, 'Wear Of Mess Dress', Article/Para 57:

57. Acquisition

a.  All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not
later than six months after commissioning.

a. Tous les officiers de la force régulière doivent posséder une tenue de mess no 2, acquise à leurs propres frais. Les officiers nouvellement commissionnés doivent se procurer cette
tenue dans les six mois suivant l’obtention de leur commission.

b. Mess dress No. 2 is optional for Regular Force non-commissioned members and *all* members of the Reserve Force. Acquisition is the responsibility of the individual.

b. La tenue de mess no 2 est facultative pour des militaires du rang de la force régulière et tous les membres de la force de réserve. Ils doivent se la procurer à leurs frais.


----------



## krimynal (16 Jan 2015)

good thanks !


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jan 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> so you could attend some mess dinner with deu's as a NCM and it would be accepted ?



A picture is worth a thousand words [original incorrect pic removed].  The attached pictures from the CFDIs (thanks MM for the catch) are the Mess dinner standard for anyone who isn't required to buy a mess kit and decides to not purchase one - No. 2B, Mess Service.

Very simply, DEU pants/jacket, name tag removed *worn*, ribbons (not medals), white shirt/tux shirt and bow tie.

For you, and obviously its your choice, but I would recommend you NOT run out and spend $1000+ on a mess kit until you are at least far enough along in your RCAF career that you are a Cpl.   :2c:


----------



## krimynal (16 Jan 2015)

Yeah I won't be spending that kind of money unless I'm CPL or MasterCPL ... but I still was wondering how it was working out , like why do some people have it , some not , etc. etc.  

When I saw that post I figured it would be a good place to ask since NO ONE ( maybe 2-3 retired regular member who came to the unit ) at my Pres unit has a Mess Kit lol !



but yeah , 1500$ for a kit that I'm not gonna wear until later down the road , not worth it , well not now !


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Jan 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Very simply, DEU pants/jacket, name tag removed, ribbons (not medals), white shirt/tux shirt and bow tie.



The picture is actually wrong; the member should be wearing their name tag: (Fig 5B1-6 of the Dress Instruction)



> As for No. 3 Duty Service Dress except as noted.
> 
> Notes:
> 1. Female personnel may carry a plain black clutch evening bag.
> ...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (16 Jan 2015)

I've heard/seen the 2 different...ways/thoughts.  I showed up at a Mess Dinner (WOs and Sgts mess) with it on and was promptly told to take it off.  The next time I attended a dinner (different Mess), I didn't have it on and was told I should.  Guess the safe thing to do is at least have it with you.  Or spend $1500 on a mess kit and not worry about a 5 cent nametag. read the damn reference thoroughly.  

:Tin-Foil-Hat:

Edit - just looked at Fig 5B1-6 and 5C2 (No. 3 Service Dress).  You're 100% correct.  Thanks for picking that up; I hate passing on bad/incorrect info.  Post above edited with correct info and figures from ref.


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## Privateer (16 Jan 2015)

*hijack*

In my view the CF should save a few dollars by dropping those plastic name tags completely (keep name tapes for operational clothing).  DEU's are supposed to look professional, and plastic name tags are the opposite.  If you need to know someone's name, just do the polite thing and ask.

*hijack ends*


----------



## krimynal (16 Jan 2015)

wait that would actually mean I would have to speak to an other human ! TO HIS FACE !?

oh damn , keep those plastic thingy !! way simpler 


*sarcasm ends here*


----------



## dimsum (16 Jan 2015)

Privateer said:
			
		

> *hijack*
> 
> In my view the CF should save a few dollars by dropping those plastic name tags completely (keep name tapes for operational clothing).  DEU's are supposed to look professional, and plastic name tags are the opposite.  If you need to know someone's name, just do the polite thing and ask.
> 
> *hijack ends*



Yep.


----------



## expwor (16 Jan 2015)

A question.  If Mess Dress is a mandated uniform why is it not supplied?  Why does the serviceman/woman have to purchase it
And question 2.  How many times a year on average would someone wear their Mess Dress
Just wondering 

Tom


----------



## George Wallace (16 Jan 2015)

expwor said:
			
		

> A question.  If Mess Dress is a mandated uniform why is it not supplied?  Why does the serviceman/woman have to purchase it
> And question 2.  How many times a year on average would someone wear their Mess Dress
> Just wondering
> 
> Tom



It is "highly recommended" for officers to purchase it.  It is optional for NCMs. 

It is worn as often as there are events requiring it to be worn.


----------



## PMedMoe (16 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is "highly recommended" for officers to purchase it.  It is optional for NCMs.





			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> From CFP 265 - Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 2, Section 1, 'Wear Of Mess Dress', Article/Para 57:
> 
> 57. Acquisition
> 
> a.  All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, which shall be procured at individual expense. Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.



It is mandatory for Officers.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Jan 2015)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It is mandatory for Officers.



...in the Regular Force.  Not the Reserve Force.


----------



## Scoobs (16 Jan 2015)

Ya, as an officer, I loved so much (lots of sarcasm) having to drop money on something that I "might" wear once a year.  I've never understood why it was mandatory, especially considering the cost of the mess kits.  I believe that if it is mandatory it should be claimable.

I can count on my ten fingers the number of times that I have worn my mess kit in 15 years of Reg Force service.  That's the frequency of it being worn.

My advice for those that it is not mandatory, don't buy it.  Just wear the DEUs as per the other posts above.  Spend your hard earned money on your family instead.


----------



## George Wallace (17 Jan 2015)

See.  Now, if you had a nice scarlet jacket, and spurs on your Wellingtons, and wandered off to the bars after a Mess Dinner......Then you would see the advantage of purchasing Mess Kit.   >


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## PMedMoe (17 Jan 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ...in the Regular Force.  Not the Reserve Force.



And I believe krimynal is a reservist, applying for OT and CT.

Anyway....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Jan 2015)

Maybe I'm just invited to more dinners, but I used to wear my Army Mess Kit, on average, 3-5 times a year. Bought it as a Cpl and wore it until I retired as a MWO. It saw lots of use and like George says, scarlet jacket, black vest, overalls instead of pants and wellingtons w\ spurs make you a chick magnet. Even for someone as ugly as me.


----------



## MedCorps (19 Jan 2015)

I will second Recceguy... I wear mine 3-5 times a year on average.  I cannot think of a year since commissioning (less those deployed) that I did not wear it at least three times in a year.  I guess it is somewhat dependent where you are posted and service customs and traditions.  

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## ballz (19 Jan 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Ya, as an officer, I loved so much (lots of sarcasm) having to drop money on something that I "might" wear once a year.  I've never understood why it was mandatory, especially considering the cost of the mess kits.  I believe that if it is mandatory it should be claimable.
> 
> I can count on my ten fingers the number of times that I have worn my mess kit in 15 years of Reg Force service.  That's the frequency of it being worn.
> 
> My advice for those that it is not mandatory, don't buy it.  Just wear the DEUs as per the other posts above.  Spend your hard earned money on your family instead.



At least your DCO hasn't made you buy a $1500 sword that gets used once every 2 years despite the fact that Full Dress Stores has about 25 perfectly good ones down there for signing out for such occasions!

I wear my mess kit on average twice per year, that's for mandatory events. The opportunities have been there to wear it at other non-mandatory events but I didn't attend those.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jan 2015)

I wore my mess dress probably 10 times in the last 11 years.  In Bagtown and Cold Laks anyways, there is generally 1 mess diner a year and not everybody can go (not enough room).  

At least I wore it more than my DEUs!  I think I wear it on average once every second year.  I always end up doing the fly past or on alert during parades.


----------



## Pusser (19 Jan 2015)

I've never understood people's objection to buying mess dress.  We tout ourselves as "professionals" on par with lawyers, doctors, businessmen, etc, but then complain when it comes time to pay for the priviledge.  In any other professional field, folks are expected to have  far more expensive wardrobe than ours, that is neither issued nor tax deductible either.  We are lucky in that we now only have to buy one set of clothes.  There was a time when officers had to buy all of their dress uniforms.  Although I will concede that it would be nice if mess dress was issued, I fear then that the quality of it would degrade rapidly.  I sometimes wish we bought all of our dress uniforms for no other reason than I could then control the quality better.  One of the postive aspects of the executive curl returning to all RCN uniforms is that it has forced the supply system to provide quality braid as opposed to the cheap plastic crap we used prior.

On average, I've worn mess dress at least twice per year for the last 28 years and many years, many times more.  In fact, I am no longer wearing a single piece of my original one.  I'm on my second set of trousers and jacket (i.e. four jackets because I have both white and blue ones), at least the third waistcoat and I've lost count on the shirts.  Requirements for mess dress increase considerably on foreign postings and I've even gotten myself a tuxedo for some mess events.

The only junior NCMs I've ever known to have mess dress are those who started officer training and reverted, or those who got it for their weddings (not strictly correct unless the wedding is in the evening, but I'm not going to quibble).  It's certainly not required.  It's not required for Reserve officers either, but most of the ones I've known have gotten it eventually (largely because it looks so nice!).

I think we largely wear plastic nametags because the Americans do.  They certainly never existed on pre-unification dress uniforms.  Even with the old (traditional?) CF green uniform, S3 (i.e. daily wear service dress) included nametags; however, S1 specifically excluded them.  In other words, we wore nametags with ribbons, but not with medals (although we were often given the order of dress for parades as "S1 with nametags").

One of my great laments in the modern CAF is that we have slobbed down quite a bit.  I simply cannot understand why we wear out the most expensive uniforms in our inventory (i.e. CADPAT and NCDs) sitting at desks in climate-controlled environments.  Not only is it wasteful, I think it looks unprofessional.  Maybe I'm a dinosaur though...


----------



## dimsum (19 Jan 2015)

I'll echo Pusser's comment about wearing mess dress more on foreign postings.  On this posting I've worn it at least 3 times per year (Spring Ball, Autumn Ball and End-of-Year Dining-In) and usually also the Defence Charity Ball.  

I feel like I've finally got my money's worth out of it   :nod:


----------



## FSTO (19 Jan 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> One of my great laments in the modern CAF is that we have slobbed down quite a bit.  I simply cannot understand why we wear out the most expensive uniforms in our inventory (i.e. CADPAT and NCDs) sitting at desks in climate-controlled environments.  Not only is it wasteful, I think it looks unprofessional.  Maybe I'm a dinosaur though...



Agree with you 100%. 
I'm at MARPAC HQ. I cannot fathom why the lads and lassies at ACCE(P) and JRCC are all wearing flight suits. The lads at J3(Land) and METOC wearing CADPAT and a group of RCN officers, C&PO's and Rates who wear NCD's. Really!?! Are you going to be piloting plane, roll in the dirt, or go into action dress in a moments notice at all during your posting there?
End rant!


----------



## Jungle (19 Jan 2015)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It is mandatory for Officers.



None of the units I have served in since commissionning have enforced this.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Jan 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> One of my great laments in the modern CAF is that we have slobbed down quite a bit.  I simply cannot understand why we wear out the most expensive uniforms in our inventory (i.e. CADPAT and NCDs) sitting at desks in climate-controlled environments.  Not only is it wasteful, I think it looks unprofessional.  Maybe I'm a dinosaur though...



When I left MARLANT in 2011, while posted ashore, PO2/Sgts and up wore No. 3B order of dress for work dress and received 600 points a year, for up keep, through logistik unicorps.  I guess this is no longer the case. 

On a side note my No. 1C and D (High Collar Whites)  were a big hit at the last mess dinner I attended in June '14.  I have never had so many compliments on my uniform.  But the whites really are a sharp look! 

I fully agree with your sentiments Pusser.


----------



## krimynal (19 Jan 2015)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And I believe krimynal is a reservist, applying for OT and CT.
> 
> Anyway....



yes I am a reservist applying for OT and CT to Reg force AWS Tech


----------



## Happy Guy (19 Jan 2015)

Off topic.  I concur with Pusser and FSTO, but as I'm frequently reminded I am a dinosaur.  My dress of the day is CADPAT but I'm not in a field unit and I'm posted in Ottawa.  I believe that I should be wearing DEU 3B / 3C.  I have made my thoughts known to the chain of command however I'm not pushing this because this is a maintenance free uniform, except for polishing the boots, and this is not a fight worth pursuing.  Besides, being in the NCR now I've learnt that it really is a pain in the backsides to get my accoutrements updated and use the tailoring services at CFSU(O) clothing stores.

On topic.  Unless you're a bandsman or someone who frequently attend formal evening events than I believe that no Jr NCM or Sgt should consider buying mess kit. Of course if you've just finished a tour and want to burn money then fill your boots.


----------



## ballz (19 Jan 2015)

Jungle said:
			
		

> None of the units I have served in since commissionning have enforced this.



Wow... It's definitely being enforced in The RCR. See my post above Re: DCO bullying all officers into buying swords.

One of our newest officers didn't have mess kit like 3 months after graduating Ph4 and we all got an email quoting the QR&O and an updated copy of the Base Duty Officer list :whiteflag:


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## dimsum (19 Jan 2015)

I've always wondered why officers had to pay for mess dress within 6 months of commissioning as per the regs.  Why not 6 months of finishing formal training (ex. OTU for aircrew)?  

A perfect example would be a 2LT Pilot having to buy RCAF mess dress before earning their wings.  There is a decent chance that s/he would wash out and potentially be transferred to another element, in which case the $1000 or so is wasted.


----------



## Navy_Pete (19 Jan 2015)

I don't think I've ever seen it enforced per say, but I think if you turned up at a navy mess dinner in your DEUs as a Lt(N) you'd probably get called out for an explanation.  Not as big a deal for SLts and below as they generally aren't trade qualified.

Is awesome to go to an RN event though; the gold stripe on our pants is for their Capt(N) and above.  Pretty hilarious to bump into a seniour officer and have them go off muttering about colonials.  Also, they had bumper cars and laser tag at a summer ball, why can't we do stuff like that?


----------



## dimsum (19 Jan 2015)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> *Also, they had bumper cars and laser tag at a summer ball, why can't we do stuff like that?*


The Aussie Spring and Autumn Balls I've been to had bumper cars, sumo suits and bouncy castles as a minimum.  Always hilarious to see a bunch of officers (and their dates) dressed up and jumping like 5-year olds.   ;D


----------



## ballz (19 Jan 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why officers had to pay for mess dress within 6 months of commissioning as per the regs.  Why not 6 months of finishing formal training (ex. OTU for aircrew)?
> 
> A perfect example would be a 2LT Pilot having to buy RCAF mess dress before earning their wings.  There is a decent chance that s/he would wash out and potentially be transferred to another element, in which case the $1000 or so is wasted.



Totally hear ya. It's not even possible for a DEO Infantry Officer to finish his trades training and actually know what Regiment he is going to (each Regiment has different mess kit) within 6 months of being commissioned, so how the hell can he order his mess kit within 6 months of his commissioning? Not the first time the regs aren't up to date. I was surprised to see the guy get hammered for not having mess kit within 3 months but, well, I guess you'd have to know our DCO haha


----------



## Melbatoast (19 Jan 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I've always wondered why officers had to pay for mess dress within 6 months of commissioning as per the regs.  Why not 6 months of finishing formal training (ex. OTU for aircrew)?
> 
> A perfect example would be a 2LT Pilot having to buy RCAF mess dress before earning their wings.  There is a decent chance that s/he would wash out and potentially be transferred to another element, in which case the $1000 or so is wasted.



This is more or less the line of thought at at least 3 CFFTS, for the same reasons (1500 or so of them).


----------



## Pusser (20 Jan 2015)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I don't think I've ever seen it enforced per say, but I think if you turned up at a navy mess dinner in your DEUs as a Lt(N) you'd probably get called out for an explanation.  Not as big a deal for SLts and below as they generally aren't trade qualified.
> 
> Is awesome to go to an RN event though; the gold stripe on our pants is for their Capt(N) and above.  Pretty hilarious to bump into a seniour officer and have them go off muttering about colonials.  Also, they had bumper cars and laser tag at a summer ball, why can't we do stuff like that?



As a general rule, I think most folks are pretty relaxed about the six month rule for folks who are not yet occupation qualified.  In fact, I know that years ago the Navy actually recommended that the regulation be changed to within six months of qualification, vice commissioning.  I don't know what happened to that recommendation.

I personally have had words though with Lt(N)s who have been vocal about their refusal to buy mess dress ("if they want me to wear it, they'll have to issue it").  As far as I was concerned they were being grossly unprofessional.  I think of it this way, it's actually a shame if a Regular Force officer refuses to buy mess dress.  He/she actually denies him/herself the opportunity to do some pretty cool things.  Mess dinners and similar mess dress events can be a lot of fun.  On more than one occasion, in some of my bitter and twisted periods in my career (they happen folks), I have gone to a mess dinner, talked to old friends and remembered why I still love this outfit, despite its foibles.

As for bumper cars and shooting galleries at our mess events?  They're entirely possible.  All you need is the will (and contact inforamation for a provider).  Get involved in your mess and make it happen!


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## Jungle (20 Jan 2015)

ballz said:
			
		

> Wow... It's definitely being enforced in The RCR. See my post above Re: DCO bullying all officers into buying swords.



That looks like abuse of power...



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> One of our newest officers didn't have mess kit like 3 months after graduating Ph4 and we all got an email quoting the QR&O and an updated copy of the Base Duty Officer list :whiteflag:



Your regimental culture has always fascinated me... thankfully I look at it from the outside.


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## blackberet17 (20 Jan 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A picture is worth a thousand words [original incorrect pic removed].  The attached pictures from the CFDIs (thanks MM for the catch) are the Mess dinner standard for anyone who isn't required to buy a mess kit and decides to not purchase one - No. 2B, Mess Service.
> 
> Very simply, DEU pants/jacket, name tag removed *worn*, ribbons (not medals), white shirt/tux shirt and bow tie.
> 
> For you, and obviously its your choice, but I would recommend you NOT run out and spend $1000+ on a mess kit until you are at least far enough along in your RCAF career that you are a Cpl.   :2c:



Whoops. I've not seen name tags at my unit Mess dinners, at least amongst us Jnr Os sans Mess Kit.


----------



## Pusser (20 Jan 2015)

Jungle said:
			
		

> "Wow... It's definitely being enforced in The RCR. See my post above Re: DCO bullying all officers into buying swords."
> 
> That looks like abuse of power...
> 
> Your regimental culture has always fascinated me... thankfully I look at it from the outside.



Bullying folks into buying swords is over the top as there is no regulatory requirement to personally own one.  However, enforcing regulations is not an abuse of power.


----------



## blackberet17 (20 Jan 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> However, enforcing regulations is not an abuse of power.



Never pass a fault, as they say...!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2015)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Never pass a fault, as they say...!



Except those that they've created themselves


----------



## Jungle (20 Jan 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Bullying folks into buying swords is over the top as there is no regulatory requirement to personally own one.  However, enforcing regulations is not an abuse of power.



I thought the way I drafted my post conveyed that message... enforcing regs is fine, however there are a number of ways this can be done.


----------



## a_majoor (20 Jan 2015)

Probably the most contentious issue about mess dress and other "stuff" is the ROI.

We are discussing something that costs a great deal of money and is rarely used (YMMV). Even people who have social lives and get invited to multiple functions are talking 2-3 times a year, and taking up closet space the rest of the time. I think a lot of the resistance would drop if there was some way to bring the price of mess kit down to something reasonable (I am willing to pay several hundred dollars on a good suit, but then again, I wear a suit more often than 1-3 times a year...).


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## George Wallace (20 Jan 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Probably the most contentious issue about mess dress and other "stuff" is the ROI.
> 
> We are discussing something that costs a great deal of money and is rarely used (YMMV). Even people who have social lives and get invited to multiple functions are talking 2-3 times a year, and taking up closet space the rest of the time. I think a lot of the resistance would drop if there was some way to bring the price of mess kit down to something reasonable (I am willing to pay several hundred dollars on a good suit, but then again, I wear a suit more often than 1-3 times a year...).



If it were a Tuxedo, how often would you wear it?  

Mess Kit is formal wear, worn by military personnel.  Tuxedos are formal wear worn by civilians.  Your point, about an expensive suit, does not equate to Mess Kit in this discussion.


----------



## Lightguns (20 Jan 2015)

Mess kit is a career investment as a professional.  I never regretted buying it, and enjoyed my time in it.  I even bought the damn blue optional army wedgie.  If you do not wish to be a part of our great tradition, maybe the military ain't for you.  Now that I am about to end my career I regret not buying the sword, really want to have it in my man cave.  I am heartfelt sorry that I did not participate in that bit of my profession.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 Jan 2015)

In the grand scheme, $1000 taxes in for a custom tailored tux with that much expensive bling that needs to get put on, is  a pretty good deal; you can easily pay the same for a tailored suit.

My only issue now is that with all the gym time, my mess kit is getting tight on the shoulders and legs and loose on the waist.  Probably the opposite of how most people 'outgrow' them!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2015)

My tailor left enough material in mine that I was able to adjust mine for the last 22 years of my career.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jan 2015)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> Whoops. I've not seen name tags at my unit Mess dinners, at least amongst us Jnr Os sans Mess Kit.



I know  8)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If it were a Tuxedo, how often would you wear it?
> 
> Mess Kit is formal wear, worn by military personnel.  Tuxedos are formal wear worn by civilians.  Your point, about an expensive suit, does not equate to Mess Kit in this discussion.



At the last Spring Ball, the authorized dress was Mess Kit, DEU "mess dress" or...tuxedo (including CAF mbrs).  A few people opted on the tux rental and it was actually pretty snazzy looking.


----------



## Lightguns (21 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> My tailor left enough material in mine that I was able to adjust mine for the last 22 years of my career.



Andre did that for mine and I visited him three times to exercise the option.


----------



## blackberet17 (21 Jan 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I know  8)



:rofl:

Thought you might...

As the Snr Subby, I'll see what I can do by way of "effecting change".


----------



## Pusser (21 Jan 2015)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Mess kit is a career investment as a professional.  I never regretted buying it, and enjoyed my time in it.  I even bought the damn blue optional army wedgie.  If you do not wish to be a part of our great tradition, maybe the military ain't for you.  Now that I am about to end my career I regret not buying the sword, really want to have it in my man cave.  I am heartfelt sorry that I did not participate in that bit of my profession.



It's never too late to buy sword!  I recommend either of these guys:

http://www.guthriewoods.com/

http://www.crisp-and-sons.com/aboutus.htm


----------



## a_majoor (21 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If it were a Tuxedo, how often would you wear it?
> 
> Mess Kit is formal wear, worn by military personnel.  Tuxedos are formal wear worn by civilians.  Your point, about an expensive suit, does not equate to Mess Kit in this discussion.



Not the same argument. When I need a tux I go downtown and rent one for the night. It isn't sitting in my closet for years waiting for the next formal event.


----------



## quadrapiper (21 Jan 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Not the same argument. When I need a tux I go downtown and rent one for the night. It isn't sitting in my closet for years waiting for the next formal event.


This topic could very easily be merged with any discussions about the Death of the Messes. Why aren't "you" wearing mess dress more often? Because your unit/your mess isn't creating the need.


----------



## krimynal (21 Jan 2015)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> This topic could very easily be merged with any discussions about the Death of the Messes. Why aren't "you" wearing mess dress more often? Because your unit/your mess isn't creating the need.



may be off topic but we had the same discussion 2-3 weeks ago in our mess ( PRes Arty unit ) about the fact that people no longer cared about mess , and what it meant , no one would show up after exercise , no one would show up at any "activities" etc.


----------



## Rifleman62 (21 Jan 2015)

Speaking of Swords, a nice method of display vice on a wall. 

If you can overcome "she who must be obeyed", it looks good beside a fireplace. 

One of two problems with Mess Kit is they are the natural habitat of the shrink moth, and what do you do with it when you retire: wear once a year (although I understand the Army frowns on the wear by retired mbrs) donate or sell.


----------



## George Wallace (21 Jan 2015)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Speaking of Swords, a nice method of display vice on a wall.
> 
> If you can overcome "she who must be obeyed", it looks good beside a fireplace.
> 
> One of two problems with Mess Kit is they are the natural habitat of the shrink moth, and what do you do with it when you retire: wear once a year (although I understand the Army frowns on the wear by retired mbrs) donate or sell.



LOL.

I agree.  I purchased a display box/Shadow box to mount on the wall with hangers for the sword and scabbard.  (It is best to display the sword and scabbard separately, as the sword may start to rust if kept in the scabbard for long periods in humid conditions.)

As recceguy pointed out, that extra fabric does pay off over time.  

Some units are very accepting of retired members still wearing their Mess Kit to approved functions.   If not, one can still pass their Mess Kit on to a serving member at a reduced cost.


----------



## blackberet17 (21 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If not, one can still pass their Mess Kit on to a serving member at a reduced cost.



I'm looking!


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2015)

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> Thought you might...
> 
> As the Snr Subby, I'll see what I can do by way of "effecting change".



Print the 2 pics above from the CFDI, carry in your pocket...wait for the obvious question.   ;D


----------



## George Wallace (21 Jan 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Not the same argument. When I need a tux I go downtown and rent one for the night. It isn't sitting in my closet for years waiting for the next formal event.



Nor is your point about an expensive suit.

However?  How much is a Tux Rental these days; and what would the accumulated expense be over a twenty year (let's say) period be?


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## blackberet17 (21 Jan 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Print the 2 pics above from the CFDI, carry in your pocket...wait for the obvious question.   ;D



Beat you to the punch, EITS, printed the first one off, going on my board in the Sqn lines. See what my Adjt thinks  ;D


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## ModlrMike (21 Jan 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's never too late to buy sword!  I recommend either of these guys:
> 
> http://www.guthriewoods.com/
> 
> http://www.crisp-and-sons.com/aboutus.htm



I would add these guys: http://www.militaryheritage.com/swords2.htm

Much less expensive for something that appears will do the job.


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## RedcapCrusader (20 Jul 2016)

What the usual turnaround time for a Mess Dress order? I've been on field ops for what seems like an eternity and only just got in to put my order, hoping I can then pick it up on 09 September.


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## PuckChaser (20 Jul 2016)

Was about 4-6 weeks if I remember correctly from Andrei's, they might be able to rush it for you.


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## RedcapCrusader (20 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Was about 4-6 weeks if I remember correctly from Andrei's, they might be able to rush it for you.



It's only been a day, but I'm still waiting on confirmation of order and quote from Andrei's so hopefully I'll ask what he can do for me. 

Now I know their website says they have Wellingtons in stock, however, does anyone know the price? I've tried a few other places but none that come with spur boxes, and the places that do, are either UK companies or egregiously expensive. 

Boulet doesn't seem to have any (anymore). I don't really know where else to look, I'm tempted to just order a pair of George or Chelsea boots from the UK... But with shipping and duty, it may not even be worth it.


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## sandyson (20 Jul 2016)

Many many years ago, I used to recommend people check with the local RCMP detachment--not for their riding boots but for boxed quarter Wellingtons.


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## RedcapCrusader (20 Jul 2016)

Sanderson said:
			
		

> Many many years ago, I used to recommend people check with the local RCMP detachment--not for their riding boots but for boxed quarter Wellingtons.



You sir, are brilliant! There's one nearby, I'll ask and see if there's anything they can do.


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## RocketRichard (30 Jul 2016)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> You sir, are brilliant! There's one nearby, I'll ask and see if there's anything they can do.


Alberta Boot in Cowtown makes them. A fine company. So if you're ever in YYC pop in. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brihard (14 Dec 2016)

Anyone seen success before in converting mess kits between patterns? I have my dad's old LogO mess jacket that he handed down to me, and I'm wanting to look at getting it converted to a highland infantry regiment's NCO jacket for wear with mess dress. I know jack squat about mess dress and if I'm even in the right ball park thinking this may be possible.


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## PuckChaser (14 Dec 2016)

Would depend on what facings your unit uses. I just looked at my mess kit, and it looks fairly complex to change the facings and the cuffs (which is basically everything that changes in a mess kit). Definitely need a real good tailor to attempt it.


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## RocketRichard (14 Dec 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Anyone seen success before in converting mess kits between patterns? I have my dad's old LogO mess jacket that he handed down to me, and I'm wanting to look at getting it converted to a highland infantry regiment's NCO jacket for wear with mess dress. I know jack squat about mess dress and if I'm even in the right ball park thinking this may be possible.


John the Tailor in Edmonton altered my mess kit for me, changed the crows feet, altered for size etc.  He did a fine job and there were quite a few mess kits hung up in his shop when I was there in the summer. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## ethanyugig (2 Oct 2017)

Hi all,
Just find out Andrei master tailor permanently closed their location in Edmonton. 
So where can I order a set of Mess Kit in Alberta?
I am in Calgary, may go to Edmonton if necessary.

Thanks guys!!!


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## RedcapCrusader (2 Oct 2017)

ethanyugig said:
			
		

> HI guys,
> 
> Just learned andrei master tailor permanently closed their location in Edmonton.
> So where can I order a set of Mess Kit in Alberta.
> ...



John The Tailor in Edmonton City Centre


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## RocketRichard (2 Oct 2017)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> John The Tailor in Edmonton City Centre



Second this.  I went to him to have my mess kit altered.  Good quality work and fair rates.


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