# A Tangent On Working Hours and Stuff Split from "All things Novel Coronavirus"



## stellarpanther (23 Apr 2020)

With all the shortages of PPE, I doubt the CAF mbr's will have the appropriate equipment when the workers don't.  I've heard a lot of PSW are refusing certain tasks, the CAF mbr's should be required to subject themselves to the same risks with the PPE either.  It's not right.

I just don't think it's the job of the CAF to working in Nursing homes.  I doubt the province will be paying for this and they are probably looking at it as free labour.


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## stellarpanther (23 Apr 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Fortunately, the MND and CDS have experts with indepth knoweldge of the PPE stocks held by the CAF to draw on when they are making decisions, rather than some random dude on the internet pulling conjecture out of thin air.



You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> You can believe what you want but there is  a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.



Honest question. Are these members of your unit or troops on reddit?


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## Remius (23 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.  I'm sure this isn't new but I do think it's widespread and getting worse and I'm sure others on here have heard that before.  I'm not saying they agree with it but I'm sure they've heard it before.




So province asks for military assistance.  Gvt says yes and instructs military to make it happen.  What is leadership supposed to do? Say no? How do you know if that conversation didn’t already happen and now leadership is loyally executing their orders? 

How do they not have our backs exactly?


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## NavyShooter (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> You can believe what you want but there is a lot of mbr's who believe especially in the MCpl and below level that doesn't think leadership has our backs.


[quote author=stellarpanther]
I've only talked to a few people on FB and hopefully they are wrong but people have express concern 
[/quote]
So, forgive me for doubting your sources...but in your first post quoted above you state that there is _"....A LOT OF MBR'S..."_
A few posts later you say _"I've only talked to a few people on FB..."_
So, your initial statement's validity is now drawn into question based on your own following statement.
I think you undermined your own argument - or so it would seem to me.
I appreciate you wanting to be seen to be an expert here - there are a lot of competent folks here that it's great to rub shoulders wish (so to speak) but if your core of expertise is drawn from Facebook, well, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest finding more reputable sources.
NS


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> So, forgive me for doubting your sources...but in your first post quoted above you state that there is _"....A LOT OF MBR'S..."_
> A few posts later you say _"I've only talked to a few people on FB..."_
> So, your initial statement's validity is now drawn into question based on your own following statement.
> I think you undermined your own argument - or so it would seem to me.
> ...



I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB. 

On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.


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## MilEME09 (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.
> 
> On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.



If you are serving, remember that making public comments that discredit the CAF and/or it's leadership is a offense. Please keep that in mind when stating an opinion of those you know on a public forum.


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## NavyShooter (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from *a few people* doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.



OK....so it's not a lot, it's a few.  

Thanks for clarifying that.

NS


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## SeaKingTacco (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in who believes me or not, I have nothing to prove on here and repeating something I've heard from a few people doesn't require any level of expertise.  I should have been more clear though, I'm not referring to a random FB group, I'm talking about people in the CAF that I spoke with through FB.
> 
> On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.


 you can ask a moderator directly by PM if you have not been told specifically why you have a warning. 

As a side note, as others have already indicated to you, there is literally no subject on Army.ca upon which you have posted where you have not found some reason to complain or to assume the worst about the entire CAF chain of command. I am not a mod, just a reader and I find your constant (and often ill-informed) rants to be tiresome.


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## kratz (24 Apr 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther]
On another topic, why am I being warned and watched now?  I said nothing wrong other than give opinions and express on here what I was told by a few others who may or may not even get sent to nursing homes.
[/quote]

In this situation, the staff have not issued you a warning, instead it's multiple members of the site.

When MilPoints are awarded, an option for 5% warning is available. 
Once a minimum percentage is achieved, the Warning / Watched flag is automatically generated. 

As it's been pointed out earlier, a Warning is not bad, if you learn from it. 
Apparently, in this case, many members disagree with your assertions recently.


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> you can ask a moderator directly by PM if you have not been told specifically why you have a warning.
> 
> As a side note, as others have already indicated to you, there is literally no subject on Army.ca upon which you have posted where you have not found some reason to complain or to assume the worst about the entire CAF chain of command. I am not a mod, just a reader and I find your constant (and often ill-informed) rants to be tiresome.



That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.



I've been sorted out by some people on this site who are a lower rank than me, and paid attention (I think?). Leadership doesn't necessarily align with pay grades


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> If you are serving, remember that making public comments that discredit the CAF and/or it's leadership is a offense. Please keep that in mind when stating an opinion of those you know on a public forum.



Thank you for that reminder, I do catch myself getting carried away sometimes.  After looking at my earlier posts, I didn't use very good wording in posts but I didn't mean to come across as trashing the CAF and it's leadership. The CDS most likely wouldn't remember me considering he interacts with so many people but I've spoken to Gen Vance one on one for about 10 minutes one time when he was at CJOC waiting for his driver.  I have a lot of respect for him and think he's one of the best CDS we've had.  Not many generals or other senior officers for that matter ask Jr. ranks what their opinions are of certain topics, IMO, he's one of the few CDS's who actually is trying to make life better for the troops at all levels.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> That's fine if you are becoming tiresome of my posts, don't read them. I'm also not so sure they are ill-informed.  Throughout my career, I've had people question me and others in my trade about policies that they interpret differently than the fact.  Just because someone may be of a high rank doesn't mean they are right.  If I had a dollar for every time a Sr. NCO or Officer argued about a certain policy at work and was later proven to be wrong I'd be rich.  Some of them won't even believe it when you show them in black and white.  I and most mbr's in my trade get people arguing what they think the policy should be rather than what it is so I don't except that my opinions are often ill-informed.  Often what I see here is others don't necessarily agree with my opinion which is fine.



SP you've pointed out you have an issue with the CoC, combat arms, reservists and dinosaurs. I can only recommend if you have a grievance with your former units or CoC to bring it up with them and try not to bring those grievances here. 

People in your trade are awesome and can be real life savers. They also make some pretty awe-inspiring mistakes. No one is perfect.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2020)

oops, wrong thread...


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

"Multi-Hatting Versus Specialization: There must be the avoidance of seeing military personnel as hyper-competent and multi-purpose agents which can do any task set before them, thus being used as a backstop for any and all challenging situations"

This quote explains better what I was trying to trying to say yesterday when I said we aren't janitors.  Clearly a bad choice of words on my part.


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> SP you've pointed out you have an issue with the CoC, combat arms, reservists and dinosaurs. I can only recommend if you have a grievance with your former units or CoC to bring it up with them and try not to bring those grievances here.
> 
> People in your trade are awesome and can be real life savers. They also make some pretty awe-inspiring mistakes. No one is perfect.



I have no issues with anything you mentioned.  I do believe most reservists don't understand much about how life is or how things are done in the Reg F but that doesn't mean I have a problem with them.  The same can be said of some mbr's of combat arms units especially when they have a certain way of doing things. Places like Ottawa, Borden or Comox for example are done entirely different.  I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just that they are often completely different.  As an example, I normally work from 0730-1530, if we are seen working past our regular hours, we are told "you don't get paid extra for staying go home, it can wait until tomorrow." That's common in a lot of places in my trade, not so much from what I've heard in places like Pet or Edmonton but a lot of places it is.  On the rare occasions that I do need to stay later because of something I started that went longer than anticipated and needs to be finished, I would be told to come in later the next day or leave earlier, normally I would just write it on the board.  From what I've heard that doesn't happen in a combat arms unit.  Doesn't mean I'm criticizing them, I'm not at all.  My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his shit on me.  I'm I wrong?


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## dangerboy (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his shit on me.  I'm I wrong?



I don't think loose their shit, I would think more confused.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther] My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his shit on me.  I'm I wrong?
[/quote]

You're stereo-typing. I can't speak for everyone.  I would tell you thanks for staying late to finish the task, it looks good on your work ethic. I would then remind you that you don't decide your working hours and tell you that sometimes you may need to work extended hours but you'll see that it'll be taken into consideration and you given early days or other benefits to compensate.

I think what's working against you here is that you have an 8-4 office job mentality (as noted by you) and the military doesn't always operate that way. Infantry platoon warrants/platoon 2ICs, especially when running courses or training, don't always work 8-4. I was working on platoon admin until almost 10 pm last night, I didn't ask for the morning off.


I think some of your observations may be right, CAF members MAY have to work without PPE.

CAF members were wading in shit infested water without PPE last year.
CAF members can be ordered to take their gas mask off after a gas attack to check if the agent is gone.
CAF members can be ordered to charge into machinegun fire and take out a trench.

We're really a unique employer and it's because of that that when shit hits the fan the provincial and federal government run to us for help.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You're stereo-typing. I can't speak for everyone.  I would tell you thanks for staying late to finish the task, it looks good on your work ethic. I would then remind you that you don't decide your working hours and tell you that sometimes you may need to work extended hours but you'll see that it'll be taken into consideration and you given early days or other benefits to compensate.
> 
> I think what's working against you here is that you have an 8-4 office job mentality (as noted by you) and the military doesn't always operate that way. Infantry platoon warrants/platoon 2ICs, especially when running courses or training, don't always work 8-4. I was working on platoon admin until almost 10 pm last night, I didn't ask for the morning off.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the Unlimited Liability Contract:

https://army.ca/forums/threads/128700.0


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2020)

Pretty hard to justify a Delay of Service. That was a $10 million lesson learned by our dept.

The only Refusal of Service I ever heard of, where I used to work, was when eight paramedics initiated one during the Ebola crisis.

Only the eight were involved. They lost.

The Ministry of Labour ordered them back in service.


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## Haggis (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I do believe most reservists don't understand much about how life is or how things are done in the Reg F but that doesn't mean I have a problem with them.


You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The same can be said of some mbr's of combat arms units especially when they have a certain way of doing things.


One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> On the rare occasions that I do need to stay later because of something I started that went longer than anticipated and needs to be finished, I would be told to come in later the next day or leave earlier, normally I would just write it on the board.  From what I've heard that doesn't happen in a combat arms unit.


 It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> My guess is that if I just got assigned to work for an Infantry WO and told him that I just worked 30 minutes longer than my shift and coming in 30 minutes late because of that, he would loose his crap on me.


 As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.


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## CBH99 (24 Apr 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.
> One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.
> It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.
> As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.




I remember in my latter 2 years, I was a platoon IC.  Our platoon commander was a civilian paramedic, and one of the nicest, most level headed guys I've had the pleasure if working with/for.  We got along well, and both agreed to simply treat our troops like professionals and adults, and not to micro-manage.  This was when the unit was fairly busy (the Afghanistan years) and the unit was busy with routine stuff, setting troops up for success on courses & pre-deployment, and we were doing a lot of community relations type stuff also.

On several occassions, both the CoC of our unit, and other units, noted how well our platoon worked together.


Guys came in a bit late to parade?  No biggie, they'd usually just text one of us first to let us know.  (We had 2 police officers, 2 corrections officers, and 3 firefighters just in our platoon alone.)  No biggie at all.  Bit of facial hair and not clean shaven?  Not a word was said by anybody, and the next day they'd be clean shaven.

Couldn't find the odd troop?  I'd check my phone, "Hey boss, vehicle techs asked for a hand outside.  Not currently doing anything.  I'll be there if ya need me."


Our platoon, and unit as a whole, was so much more productive, accomplished more in terms of self-directed learning, unit courses, etc when we simply empowered our troops with being professionals.  

Nobody likes showing up and being treated like an idiot.  "Go here, do this, do that.  Sit around until I find work for you."   That, in my opinion, is probably one of the biggest things we could fix in the reserves in regards to retention - when people feel like professionals and feel empowered to better themselves as soldiers/leaders, become motivated to pursue courses and pursue opportunities - it really changes the dynamic of the work environment in a very positive way   :2c:

(Slightly off topic, sorry - back to the thread)


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> You seem to and it's apparent that many Reg F don't understand Reserve life outside of Class B and C service.  I'm not going to go into the rather significant differences between the two as that's been beaten to death here before.
> One Air Force CWO on my SLP "got it" when he noted in the mess that the reason Cbt A NCMs treated their charges differently was part of an acclimatization process for that day when s/he would have to tell soldiers to stand in an icy cold, mud filled hole in the ground and not let the enemy pass until they died.  There's no gentle way to do that so the obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning.
> It does.  It just isn't a big deal because those leaders are practising leadership and there's no need to brag about doing one's job.
> As was mentioned above, you don't set your hours of work, your supervisor does.  That's where communications is key - in advance preferably - like a phone call "Hey, WO, I worked until 1800 on urgent claims last night.  You okay if I roll in at 1000 tomorrow?  You are?  Cool, WO, thanks". Problem solved in a professional manner.



Sorry, I don't know how to do multiple quotes on here.  But the comment regarding the CWO, if you take someone who's spent most of their career sitting behind a desk working 8-4 on a first with everyone on a first name basis and then subject them to that, there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.  Not saying it's not necessary for some but not everyone has that type of mentality to be able to deal with that.
As for you mentioning that it does happen in combat arms units that's good but by saying the mbr doesn't set their hours, a lot of time they do.  Probably on the first day at many of the larger units in Ottawa who are open 0730-1600, one of the questions on the first day or even before you start will be, do you want to work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther]there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.[/quote]
That's embarrassing.


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's embarrassing.



I actually heard that from a doctor when I worked at NDMC about 10 years ago.  I don't recall exactly how the topic came up but we were sitting in the cafeteria on a Friday afternoon when one of the doc's came in an sat with us and we all started talking.  He mentioned his time in Edmonton and mentioned something about a lot of the troops posted in Edmonton get sent to Wainright for exercises that can go for months.  One of the clerks piped up that they would go insane or probably quit or get medically released for stress if they had to do that.  The doctor laughed and said that a lot of those troops that go there love it and would probably quit or go insane if they had to sit behind a desk all day.  He thought that was one of the great things about the military, that we have so many people with different mentalities.


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## Remius (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> As for you mentioning that it does happen in combat arms units that's good but by saying the mbr doesn't set their hours, a lot of time they do.  Probably on the first day at many of the larger units in Ottawa who are open 0730-1600, one of the questions on the first day or even before you start will be, do you want to work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600.



The hours are set and they are giving a flex schedule.  So even still if I had/have someone working under me and they set their hours from 0730 to 1530 I expect them to be in and leave at those times.  Not suddenly roll in at 0800 because he or she wants to. So no you aren’t setting your own hours you are being given options. 

If you happen to work over your hours I expect that to be communicated and an arrangement made to let you make up for that time.  So you worked over a few hours because of X.  Cool let me know and we’ll see when we can best fit in that compensatory time.  Not you deciding not to come in the next day until 10 without clearing it.  Or decide to work extra just to take a Friday off.  

Communication. Up and down. 

Most Infantry WOs are fair.  As long ans you keep them in the loop.  But most infantry WOs won’t put up with shenanigans and constant complaining.

Now it depends on the job and what you are doing.


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## NavyShooter (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.




When I was in the Shore Office on HMCS Montreal, before we got our ship back in 2013, I was working until 5-6 PM daily to try and keep my head above water.  I came in late in the refit cycle, and had a month to get up to speed before we got the ship back.

When we took the ship back from the Incompetent Shipyard Incorporated, it was a mad rush - for 2 years - I didn't leave work on time more than a handful of times.  Most nights I worked until 6-7 pm.  Between the maintenance and repairs that had to be completed to re-activate the ship's systems, the testing of various equipment, and the rotational schedule that we had to support for software testing and system integration testing...we had troops that would come in at 0800- be sent home at 0900 with direction to be back onboard by 1530 and be ready to stay overnight if need be.  We'd sometimes get notice that we needed personnel to stay onboard overnight at 1400-1500 hrs for a trial starting at 1600 hrs.  


Learning to cope with that constant level of stress- well, welcome to the Navy.  


We did break people.  The pace was driven from above the Admiral - having ships re-activating ON TIME was crucial - if we didn't, well, then the Navy had failed.  We had a no-fail task.  I had a CPO2 crying on my shoulder one afternoon - we get him up to the base hospital.  We had 5x Lt(N) who 'left the ship' for 'various' reasons.  We had a PO1 who pulled pin and put his release on one fine day of having too much of everything going on.  He was a stoker - he literally walked out of the MCR, went to his computer, clicked 'print' on the file he had ready - signed it, and the accompanying leave pass, and walked off the brow.  30 days later he was a Civvy.  


So.  If you're in the military, and you cannot handle the stress of something outside of an 8-4 job, I have to question how well prepared you actually are for being in the military?  What happens when 9/11 happens again and we have to stand up armed base defense force personnel everywhere?  How many buildings are there in Ottawa that might need an armed presence?  Who do you think is going to do that?  The Captains and Majors?  Nope.  It'll be the clerks, stewards, and storesmen that are in the Ottawa Area...meaning you'll be jumped out of your desk, handed a rifle, given a set of ROE's, and told to stand a post.


If you are not ready to become a part of the force employment mechanism within the CAF, then maybe you should consider a different career?

When we went through basic training, we all had a First Aid course.   You learned how to put a bandage on someone - how to deliver effective first response to a gunshot wound, to a broken arm, etc.  We learned how to sew nametags onto every piece of kit we owned - why?  Because the barrel stitch that we were taught is exactly the same stitch used to sew a wound shut.  We learned how to follow drill commands and how to respond to a leader's direction on a parade square before we were given weapons - and we learned all of that first aid before we learned to operate and use our weapons.  Why?  So that if, on the day we go to the range, one of our troops gets hurt all of the soldiers knows how to apply a field dressing and do basic first aid.


We learned how to do all of those things, and if you've forgotten that the basic skill of a soldier, sailor or airwoman/man is to "Take a Rifle, Stand a Post" with the ability to deliver Deadly Force in accordance with the Rules of Engagement written on your Soldier Card - then maybe you should wake up and smell the cordite.


Your most basic job as a member of the Canadian Armed Forces is to be able to take and use a weapon.  


Don't tell yourself that as a HRA or admin clerk that you're not a target, and you don't need to know how to do that...WO Patrice Vincent was a Fire Fighter.  Just about the furthest thing from carrying a rifle and standing a post - but he was deliberately targeted and killed almost 6 years ago.


If the above concepts are an anathema to you, then perhaps you should find another career.  


When I was speaking with some of my soldiers during their BMQ, I observed their targets in the butts, and congratulated them on their deadliness.  I am helping to train infantry soldiers - complimenting their skill at arms is important, particularly when it is deserved.


stellarpanther - I think you may need to do a serious gut-check and ponder whether or not your personal ethos matches that of the Canadian Armed Forces if you're not ready to do more than 8-4, and if you are but your co-workers aren't - then maybe they should consider this as well.


Stay deadly.


NS


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> The hours are set and they are giving a flex schedule.  So even still if I had/have someone working under me and they set their hours from 0730 to 1530 I expect them to be in and leave at those times.  Not suddenly roll in at 0800 because he or she wants to. So no you aren’t setting your own hours you are being given options.
> 
> If you happen to work over your hours I expect that to be communicated and an arrangement made to let you make up for that time.  So you worked over a few hours because of X.  Cool let me know and we’ll see when we can best fit in that compensatory time.  Not you deciding not to come in the next day until 10 without clearing it.  Or decide to work extra just to take a Friday off.



That usually what I do but I've heard the WO or Capt on a couple of occasions tell the mbr.  "you're an adult just write it on the board or make sure someone knows".   They both have the attitude that mbr's will be treated like adults and trusted they will do the right thing until they do something to lose the trust.  I've seen it both ways where trust has to be earned first.


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> stellarpanther - I think you may need to do a serious gut-check and ponder whether or not your personal ethos matches that of the Canadian Armed Forces if you're not ready to do more than 8-4, and if you are but your co-workers aren't - then maybe they should consider this as well.
> 
> Stay deadly.
> 
> NS



I've asked myself that in the past and while I would be lying to say it wouldn't be tough at first, I only have a few years left until I can get out with 20 years.  I don't think I could join where my mind is now and last 20-25 years doing it.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Apr 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther] there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.[/quote]

[quote author=stellarpanther]
I actually heard that from a doctor when I worked at NDMC about 10 years ago.[/quote]

You're basing your opinion off of what a troop said to a doctor 10 years ago? I'm sure you have more recent examples, this seemed a bit strange to lead with.

In any case, hopefully no soldiers in Ottawa need to go on stress leave at the thought of deploying outdoors for Op Laser.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Apr 2020)

Navy Shooter....is it ok that I read that post in my head with a Jack Nicholson voice??n


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You're basing your opinion off of what a troop said to a doctor 10 years ago? I'm sure you have more recent examples, this seemed a bit strange to lead with.
> 
> In any case, hopefully no soldiers in Ottawa need to go on stress leave at the thought of deploying outdoors for Op Laser.



I guess I just used that example because it was a doctor saying it and I thought it give it more weight.  We have people barely holding it together on some days with the current (pre-COVID-19) work load and occasionally snap at supervisors when they are told they are on parade.  I'm not sure how they would do in a field unit. I do sometimes wonder if the younger ones would crack with just the thought of having to go.  You have to speak very nicely and make sure to say please and thank you all the time.  I try to anyway because it's my nature but just saying.


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## Haggis (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> ... if you take someone who's spent most of their career sitting behind a desk working 8-4 on a first with everyone on a first name basis and then subject them to that, there is a good chance that person will end up on stress leave.  Not saying it's not necessary for some but not everyone has that type of mentality to be able to deal with that.


 Which is why it's not a "one size fits all" approach. There are some Cbt A troops who don't like it but they won't deny that it works.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> As for Probably on the first day at many of the larger units in Ottawa who are open 0730-1600, one of the questions on the first day or even before you start will be, do you want to work 0730-1530 or 0800-1600.



I spent nine years at NDHQ before moving on to another department in another uniform.  Yes, i was given options regarding hours of work by my bosses but I never imposed my chosen schedule on them, not even as a CWO.  The boss said "Do you want to work 0700- 1500 or 0800 to 1600?"  if I wanted another option, say 0630 -1430, I didn't tell the boss.  i asked.  So did you.  Making it sound like you picked your own hours is disingenuous.  You offered an option which your boss allowed you to exercise.  Nothing more.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2020)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> When I was in the Shore Office on HMCS Montreal, before we got our ship back in 2013, I was working until 5-6 PM daily to try and keep my head above water.  I came in late in the refit cycle, and had a month to get up to speed before we got the ship back.
> 
> When we took the ship back from the Incompetent Shipyard Incorporated, it was a mad rush - for 2 years - I didn't leave work on time more than a handful of times.  Most nights I worked until 6-7 pm.  Between the maintenance and repairs that had to be completed to re-activate the ship's systems, the testing of various equipment, and the rotational schedule that we had to support for software testing and system integration testing...we had troops that would come in at 0800- be sent home at 0900 with direction to be back onboard by 1530 and be ready to stay overnight if need be.  We'd sometimes get notice that we needed personnel to stay onboard overnight at 1400-1500 hrs for a trial starting at 1600 hrs.
> 
> ...




'Pressure makes diamonds.' George S. Patton 

Now, channelling my inner 'brand new Army MCpl/MBdr' voice: Gentlefolk - shall we get this thread back on topic and away from an online counselling session?

There's a war on, you know...


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## NavyShooter (24 Apr 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Navy Shooter....is it ok that I read that post in my head with a Jack Nicholson voice??n


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtpOtFIEkbs


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Apr 2020)

Locked so I can split some of this non-virus stuff off.
Bruce


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Apr 2020)

Split off as best I could...lots of posts with both subjects in them.
Bruce


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I actually heard that from a doctor when I worked at NDMC about 10 years ago.  . . .



Well, I heard a doctor from NDMC (the Chief of Psychiatry actually) say that it would be perfectly normal for an adolescent farm boy to have his first sexual experiences with the livestock and would only be a clinical issue if said lad continued doing it with the sheep into his later teens, so I sometimes take what doctors say with a grain of salt.

True story.  It was on my TQ3 course (so decades and decades and decades ago); the Colonel headshrinker was down to Borden for the day for some of our psych classes.  Obviously a memorable instructional period.


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## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Which is why it's not a "one size fits all" approach. There are some Cbt A troops who don't like it but they won't deny that it works.
> 
> I spent nine years at NDHQ before moving on to another department in another uniform.  Yes, i was given options regarding hours of work by my bosses but I never imposed my chosen schedule on them, not even as a CWO.  The boss said "Do you want to work 0700- 1500 or 0800 to 1600?"  if I wanted another option, say 0630 -1430, I didn't tell the boss.  i asked.  So did you.  Making it sound like you picked your own hours is disingenuous.  You offered an option which your boss allowed you to exercise.  Nothing more.



Sorry I guess I wasn't clear and maybe that's part of my problem with my posts.  I agree with you completely though.  I will say though that maybe another part of my problem is that I've mostly been in Ottawa for all of my career and that's really all I know.  There are several people in that same situation  In our trade at least in the NCR, we basically do the same work as a civi with parades thrown in which is why I said in a previous post that we're often like civi's in uniform.  That's how it often feels, it wasn't a complaint or dig or anything like that.   We're usually automatically given the time off when we work overtime when required which is rare but that's not our fault, the CoC are the ones who put that policy in place.  
Something I feel I should add is that, I'm a MCpl, I don't make the rules, I follow them and make sure people under me are following them.  I give my thoughts in O groups on certain issues and that's it. Mostly I do my job and shut up.  My CoC doesn't have a problem with me as far as I know, PER's have been ok, I ranked but am not getting promoted this year but I don't really want to either.  If it sounds like I complain a lot maybe it does come across like that on here because I do find that I vent on more than at work.  I've been known to tell my boss that something is stupid and how I feel and they've been fine with it.


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## blacktriangle (24 Apr 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> obedience has to be immediate and unquestioning



I think some members of A Pl, ST7 might want to debate that one with you.


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## blacktriangle (24 Apr 2020)

Also...NavyShooter, your post in this thread is probably one of the best I've ever read. Very well said.


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## Haggis (24 Apr 2020)

Who?

And it's about context. There is a time and place for that type of leadership. Everyday is not the time and everywhere is not the place. Any officer or NCM who believes otherwise is doomed.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## NavyShooter (25 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I've asked myself that in the past and while I would be lying to say it wouldn't be tough at first, I only have a few years left until I can get out with 20 years.  I don't think I could join where my mind is now and last 20-25 years doing it.




Then I would posit that you are no longer deadly.  Certainly not to our enemies.  


Your 'few years left' will see you more jaded, and less soldierly.  You will, if you stay to your 20 with your current attitude, end up as a bitter and beaten down individual.


I've seen it - that goal of 'sticking it out to get my 20' - you're doing yourself a dis-service.


I see three options for you.  


1.  Get out of your rut.  Get operational.  Cast aside the 8-4, get out of Ottawa, leave the Golden Palace eggrolls behind and re-invigorate yourself.  Being with the troops is great.  Being stuck behind a desk is a terrible fate.


2.  Stay in - punch your time to get your 20 - by the time you get there in a few years, you will have become bitter - as a MCpl perhaps on the cusp of being promoted - or even middle of the pack - you may rise and become a Sgt, but your attitude will wear you, and those around you down.  You'd likely be a very bitter Sgt - and getting that rank with a bare year or two - having to learn all the higher level skills associate with the higher rank- you'd likely be too comfortable doing the MCpl job and not want to learn the new skills expected of you.  Your performance would drop the closer you got to hitting your 20, and eventually, you'd flip the switch - leaving a bitter man in search of something similar because of the comfort you felt.


3.  Get out now.  Write your resume this weekend - submit your name - when the COVID passes, and OP LASER secures, there will be many new opportunities.  Take that, find something that inspires you.  There is more out there.


Based on your additional comments and responses - you're likely to be a very bitter MCpl who retires at 20 years with a big chip on your shoulder.  


That would be unfortunate.  In truth, none of us wish you ill, we're just trying to help.


NS


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## stellarpanther (25 Apr 2020)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Then I would posit that you are no longer deadly.  Certainly not to our enemies.
> 
> 
> Your 'few years left' will see you more jaded, and less soldierly.  You will, if you stay to your 20 with your current attitude, end up as a bitter and beaten down individual.
> ...



Thank you, I am thinking of my options, a posting might be a good move but I know it's not going to happen this APS, that's a certain.  It may come across different on here but I don't dislike the CAF as much as it may seem. I hate to admit it, but it really might be the 8-4 rut that I don't like.  If I did, I would have never encouraged my son to join.


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## blacktriangle (25 Apr 2020)

Do they still have the flight attendant gig?


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Thank you, I am thinking of my options, a posting might be a good move but I know it's not going to happen this APS, that's a certain.  It may come across different on here but I don't dislike the CAF as much as it may seem. I hate to admit it, but it really might be the 8-4 rut that I don't like.  If I did, I would have never encouraged my son to join.



Do you have family/friends in the NCR?  Would you want to stay close, yet try something different? In all seriousness, maybe consider asking for a posting up the Valley to 4 CDSG (Base-side, not 2 CMBG)?  It might be different enough from NDHQ (101, Star Top, Carling, Louis St.Laurent, etc.) that you may find it reinvigorating and at the very least be different enough from NDHQ that you’re last years up to 20 are, if not exciting and enjoyable, relatively refreshing and fulfilling.  I know folks may dismiss it out of hand, but there is something about the energy of supporting a combat capability without getting 110% into how Brigade line units can do things (which can suck, whilst being rewarding).  Personally, I have to say that I always enjoyed my time in Pet, a couple of times for a few years each time. It was a good tempo reset/foil against the saturation that can be NDHQ.  Something to think about. 

Cheers
G2G


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## Kat Stevens (25 Apr 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Do you have family/friends in the NCR?  Would you want to stay close, yet try something different? In all seriousness, maybe consider asking for a posting up the Valley to 4 CDSG (Base-side, not 2 CMBG)?  It might be different enough from NDHQ (101, Star Top, Carling, Louis St.Laurent, etc.) that you may find it reinvigorating and at the very least be different enough from NDHQ that you’re last years up to 20 are, if not exciting and enjoyable, relatively refreshing and fulfilling.  I know folks may dismiss it out of hand, but there is something about the energy of supporting a combat capability without getting 110% into how Brigade line units can do things (which can suck, whilst being rewarding).  Personally, I have to say that I always enjoyed my time in Pet, a couple of times for a few years each time. It was a good tempo reset/foil against the saturation that can be NDHQ.  Something to think about.
> 
> Cheers
> G2G



Between 0630 and 0730, and again at 1530-1700 daily is particularly delightful.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2020)

Is that accurate across the NCR? You have to say please and thank you and tip toe around like you're walking on egg shells to order a subordinate do something?


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## PuckChaser (25 Apr 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Between 0630 and 0730, and again at 1530-1700 daily is particularly delightful.



I dunno what you're talking about, traffic issues are solved right now. We don't even have to worry about the bridge washing away this year!


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## stellarpanther (25 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is that accurate across the NCR? You have to say please and thank you and tip toe around like you're walking on egg shells to order a subordinate do something?



I wasn't exaggerating.  I think I have a naturally pleasant way of talking to people and I've never had anyone go to my supervisor about the way I've talked to them but I've seen it happen.  I've also seen people file complains because a supervisor swore.  I don't mean at a person because that would be a whole new ball game but an example is, one MCpl I know told one of the HRA's that something needed to get done for a mbr and to put the other thing that was less of a priority aside until the next day.  The mbr argued about it and the MCpl basically said "it's needs to get fucking done or its going to cause a problem for the mbr, just start working on it" or something close to that.  The MCpl was called in to the Capt's office and reminded that there's a better way to handle situations like that but swearing is never appropriate even though he wasn't swearing at the mbr.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Apr 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I dunno what you're talking about, traffic issues are solved right now. We don't even have to worry about the bridge washing away this year!



Well, in my defense, it's been a couple of years since I was there last, before everything below RCD hill was a gated community for the fabulous folks.


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## PuckChaser (25 Apr 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Well, in my defense, it's been a couple of years since I was there last, before everything below RCD hill was a gated community for the fabulous folks.



Most of it will be, looks like they're gating off the new CANSOF compound and 427 and leaving a MSR to 450. There's also talks to build ramps to access Hwy 17 either off Paquette road by Range Control or Brindle Road to basically cut the traffic going through Petawawa proper in half. I know if I worked anywhere near RCD Hill and didn't live in the PMQs I'd head out that way.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Apr 2020)

I remember it when it was nothing but milkweed, wasp nests, poison ivy, and unexploded ordnance as far as the eye could see. Good times.


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## Haggis (26 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is that accurate across the NCR? You have to say please and thank you and tip toe around like you're walking on egg shells to order a subordinate do something?



When I first started at NDHQ I had to attend a VCDS run "NDHQ Orientation" session.  One of the topics covered was "Tone at NDHQ" which served to educate us newbies on how to communicate, orally and in writing, across the NDHQ spectrum.  So, yes, there's a few eggshells to avoid and it's quite easy to offend someone at NDHQ.


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