# The Bernier Fiascos & Resignation



## stegner (8 May 2008)

> Harper dismisses concern over Bernier's ex-girlfriend
> 
> Updated Thu. May. 8 2008 4:04 PM ET
> 
> ...



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080508/Harper_bernier_0805


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## PMedMoe (8 May 2008)

Good for Harper.  Who frikkin' cares who Bernier's *ex*-girlfriend dated almost *twenty* years ago?  :


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## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2008)

This is the best the libs can do? They're in the sewer. Friggin' jerks.


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## 1feral1 (8 May 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Good for Harper.  Who frikkin' cares who Bernier's *ex*-girlfriend dated almost *twenty* years ago?  :



Exactly.

Purely shows the desperation of the Libs.


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## Armymedic (8 May 2008)

Pure desperation. 

Isn't there some free speech thingy they can acuse Harper of muzzling?


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## stegner (8 May 2008)

> Who is Julie Couillard?
> Paul Cherry, Montreal Gazette
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/story.html?id=de14a181-2738-48b1-93d6-303b815a2dfe


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## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2008)

Where are you trying to go with this stenger? If you have an opinion, voice it. We don't need you to post news articles. We all read the paper. 
Milnet.ca Staff


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## Rodahn (8 May 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> This is the best the libs can do? They're in the sewer. Friggin' jerks.



Just a small point, but it's the Bloc that are making a big stink about this, not the Liberals. 

IMO even though they may have broken up recently, the concern for a possible security breach by both party leaders is valid.

edited to clarify last statement.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> Just a small point, but it's the Bloc  that are making a big stink about this, not the Liberals.
> 
> IMO even though they may have broken up recently, the concern for a possible security breach by both party leaders is valid.
> 
> edited to clarify last statement.



He says "Excuse me??"



> But the issue dominated business in the House of Commons, where the opposition  hammered the Tories over the foreign affairs minister's past relationship, insisting it was a potential threat to national security, given his top level cabinet position.
> 
> "Questions about ministerial judgement and national security are not a private matter," said Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff. "They are everyone's business and we will raise them in this House."
> 
> Liberal MP Ralph Goodale, heartily booed by the Tories, added it's important for Canadians to know whether Couillard ever had access to ministerial documents.


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## stegner (8 May 2008)

> Where are you trying to go with this stenger? If you have an opinion, voice it. We don't need you to post news articles. We all read the paper.
> Milnet.ca Staff



Just thought this was a good article from the Montreal Gazette.  Though I think Rodhan has made the superior argument,



> *the concern for a possible security breach by both party leaders is valid*.



Having someone who once associated with, was married to and dated organized crime figures  is not a good choice for a 'spouse' of a cabinet minister no matter how good looking she is (and she is spectular).   Bernier needs to let his brain rather than other parts of the body do his thinking for him.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Just thought this was a good article from the Montreal Gazette.  Though I think Rodhan has made the superior argument,
> Having someone who once associated, was married to and dated organized crime figures as a girlfriend is not a good choice for a girlfriend of a cabinet minister no matter how good looking she is (and she is spectular).   Bernier needs to let his brain rather than other parts of the body doing his thinking for him.



It's not superior, and it's not even an arguement. It's only an opinion, and like assholes, everyone has one.

Bernier is no longer with her, and if we went back twenty years on everyone in parliment we'd likely find dirt on just about all of them. We've been over all this in other threads about them trying to make hay when it's raining. The opposition parties don't seem to be any better with the PR than they are at farming. This is just the desperate whining of desperate people. Turkeys to stupid to stop looking up in a rainstorm.


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## PMedMoe (8 May 2008)

Here's a better article from The National Post
Emphasis mine.

I’m trying to figure out why Maxime Bernier’s former girlfriend and her previous romantic relationships are being treated as a matter of vital importance. Or of any importance at all.

Julie Couillard is an attractive woman who first drew public interest when she wore a low-cut dress to Mr. Bernier’s swearing-in as foreign minister. Word is he got a bit of a talking-to from the PMO for that little indiscretion — the Harper Tories are conservative in dress sense as well as in policies.

That’s about the only glimpse we had of her until Thursday, when it was revealed — pause for collective intake of breath — that some years ago she was entangled with various members of Quebec biker gangs.

My word. Quebec bikers aren’t known as sweet people and it’s understandable some people would leap to the conclusion that anyone who became deeply involved with gang members might share their contempt for the law, not to mention other people’s lives, and therefore be the sort of person cabinet ministers shouldn’t be intimate with.

Ms. Couillard certainly was involved. She was a girlfriend of a biker named Gilles Giguere, who was about to face trial on drugs and weapons charges when he turned up dead in a ditch. After Mr. Giguere’s unfortunate demise she married Stéphane Sirois, a member of a biker group known as The Rockers. Mr. Sirois once told a court that a Quebec crime kingpin suspected Ms. Couillard of being friendly with police and ordered an end to the relationship; he might even have ordered her murdered. The murder never took place, obviously, and the marriage ended in divorce in 1999.

Pretty colourful stuff, no doubt about that. But what’s it got to do with Mr. Bernier? Ms. Couillard has no criminal record and divorced her biker spouse nine years ago. Is there a law against dating someone with a slightly racey past?

The excuse the Liberals used to justify devoting much of Thursday’s Question Period to Mr. Bernier’s love life was the possibility it represented a security threat. *Stéphane Dion wasn’t there, so Michael Ignatieff had to act indignant and self-righteous in his place.*  ;D

More on article link.


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## Rodahn (8 May 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Here's a better article from The National Post
> Emphasis mine.
> 
> I’m trying to figure out why Maxime Bernier’s former girlfriend and her previous romantic relationships are being treated as a matter of vital importance. Or of any importance at all.
> ...



More from the same article...

Similar stuff came from other MPs, all spouting the same po-faced drivel about Canada’s “security” and the possibility that Mr. Bernier might have put it in danger.

Therefore it was obviously not just the Liberals..... However I doubt that neo conservatives would admit such.....


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## stegner (8 May 2008)

Well the Conservatives have claimed that Stephane Dion being a French citizen makes him a security threat so this does too.  Just because Julie divorced this guy nine years ago and broke up with another biker after that does not mean she gave up all contacts with bikers.  Does she still have contact with them?  Good question.  Too bad that was never investigated or checked out given this lady had lots of access to Mr. Bernier.  Heck she has been to Afghanistan with him.   Mr. Bernier knows stuff that most of us will never ever find out about.   His permission is needed for the deployment of the CF outside of Canada and he knows some really really sensitive stuff about the CF too.  Therefore, the state has a place in the bedroom of the nation to ascertain if someone is divulging state secrets during pillow talk.  Gerda Munsinger anyone? This was not merely about Bernier's love life.  Noone asked how often he did it with her and in what positions.  They asked whether or not she had been checked out to make sure she was not a security threat.   This is something that should be done for all Cabinet Minister's and even members of the Opposition who are members of the Privy Council.    

Btw the military police place outlaw bikers as a high security risk to the Canadian Forces and DND property within Canada.


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## George Wallace (8 May 2008)

Security!   :

Just who was the Government in power who came up with the "Open Base Policy"?

 :

Having lived on a wide range of different CF Bases and Stations across Canada, and in Europe, Canadians on a whole have absolutely NO CONCEPT of SECURITY.  This is the Loyal Opposition wasting your and my Tax Dollars in a friggin useless round of accusations in the House.

Security in Canada is a joke.    :


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## Rodahn (8 May 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Bernier is no longer with her, and if we went back twenty years on everyone in parliment we'd likely find dirt on just about all of them.



Whether he is with her or not is not the issue. The issue here is whether there is a possible breach of security. Minister's of the government should be held to a higher standard than regular MP's. Just as members of the military, judiciary, law enforcement, et al (I hope) by nature of their positions hold themselves or are held to a higher standard than the rest of the populace.

I agree with the premise that there is likely dirt on just about all people (not just members of parliment) if we went back "X" number of years....


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## stegner (8 May 2008)

Mr. Wallace is right about security.  Though, I disagree on his criticism of the opposition.  I think this incident proves his point precisely-nobody checks out who has access to minister's who are privy to the nation's most secret secrets.    



> Open Base Policy



Though this has its limits you can walk around a base but you can't for instance walk into an ammo depot or any other sensitive spot and nose around.  I suspect, however, you would be able to find far more useful info in Mr. Bernier's briefcase than from walking aound a CF base I would think.   For that matter you can find out much more info in the Rideau Mall in Ottawa from Officer's from NDHQ that don't seem to get the fact that speaking loudly about sensitive matters is not a good idea, especially in a town crawling with foreign operatives (i.e. China & Russia).


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## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2008)

Only my opinion of course, but I think it's time some people went shopping :
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/


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## Rodahn (8 May 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Only my opinion of course, but I think it's time some people went shopping :
> http://zapatopi.net/afdb/



And I don't believe that the above was warranted, in this discussion.


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## stegner (8 May 2008)

> Only my opinion of course, but I think it's time some people went shopping
> http://zapatopi.net/afdb/



I am not sure of your point or if you are you are asking me to buy tin foil hats.  Are you denying that foreign intelligence operatives (i.e. Chinese & Russian) operate in Canada?


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## Fishbone Jones (9 May 2008)

Take it for what it's worth. I just think there's more important things happening, then the useless, schoolyard kiddy shit that these politicians are playing. If people want to spend their time looking for non existant conspiracies under rocks, that's up to them. Just don't expect others to sit idly by, wallowing in the crap.



			
				Rodahn said:
			
		

> And I don't believe that the above was warranted, in this discussion.



I don't really care. You have your opinion, I have mine. If I'd wanted to centre someone out, in the first person, I would have. Kind of, if the hat fits sort of thing. 



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> I am not sure of your point or if you are you are asking me to buy tin foil hats.  Are you denying that foreign intelligence operatives (i.e. Chinese & Russian) operate in Canada?



I don't know. Why don't you prove it with recent arrest records, or the news clips you're so fond of posting, without commentary. You're the one that made the statement, you're the one that has to prove it.......if you want to be credible.

Anyway, you guys have fun. Like I say there's more important things. I was going to watch my grass grow, but I got caught up here. Now I'll have to wait til morning. Carry on, maybe you'll find a kindred spirit that'll agree with you. Good luck.


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## Rodahn (9 May 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Take it for what it's worth. I just think there's more important things happening, then the useless, schoolyard kiddy crap that these politicians are playing. If people want to spend their time looking for non existant conspiracies under rocks, that's up to them. Just don't expect others to sit idly by, wallowing in the crap.



What conspiracy? What I'm gathering from your statement is that the security of our country (such as it is) is not of any great importance?

As you so graciously noted we both have our opinions.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 May 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> What conspiracy? What I'm gathering from your statement is that the security of our country (such as it is) is not of any great importance?
> 
> As you so graciously noted we both have our opinions.



Ha, ha, that's rich.  :rofl:

You'll have to find someone else to keep you company. I have to work in the morning, oh, and check my lawn.


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## McG (9 May 2008)

This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.

That being said, criminal bike gangs do pose a security risk.  Association with such organizations can, I've been assured, cause you great problems if you ever go for certain security clearances.  Does that mean that every Cabinet member's spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend or significant whatever needs a security screening?  Maybe we make cabinet members to be responsible for the security of their information?

Whatever the long term solution, there's no place for turning this incident into Parliamentary circus.  Those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations on protecting the security of government information in the future.


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## rifleman (9 May 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Security in Canada is a joke.    :



Oh great, now they know


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## stegner (9 May 2008)

> I don't know. Why don't you prove it with recent arrest records, or the news clips you're so fond of posting, without commentary. You're the one that made the statement, you're the one that has to prove it.......if you want to be credible.



I think credibility is hurt more by those that employ argumentum ad hominem.  Check a CSIS annual report or google canada + csis + china + spy as I did and you will find the following:

CTV.ca | China is top espionage risk to Canada: CSIS
30 Apr 2007 ... China is top espionage risk to Canada: CSIS. Updated Mon. ... He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 billion worth ...
www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070430/csis_china_070430/20 - 42k - Cached - Similar pages
Defectors say China running 1000 spies in Canada
15 Jun 2005 ... Defectors say China running 1000 spies in Canada ... During the mid-1990s, Juneau-Katsuya oversaw the CSIS Asian-Pacific desk. ...
www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/15/spies050615.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages
Between Heaven and Earth: China tops spy list: CSIS
He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 billion worth ... MaKina: Canada: As an avid human rights activist and member of the China ...
ahdu88.blogspot.com/2007/04/china-tops-suspicious-activity-in.html - 76k - Cached - Similar pages
CSIS Chief says Spies from 15 Nations Working in Canada - Embassy ...
While the CSIS director did not say how many foreign spies are in Canada, China "pretty much" ranked as the top country sending agents to Canada, ...
www.embassymag.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2007/may/2/spies/ - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
CANOE -- CNEWS - Canada: CSIS uses torture information: spy watchdog
Do you agree with the Olympic gear for Team Canada being made in China? Yes, it represents the Olympic Games ... CSIS uses torture information: spy watchdog ...
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/02/12/4842733-cp.html - Similar pages
Chinese in Vancouver: Half of CSIS time devoted to watching spies ...
1 May 2007 ... He quoted a CSIS official as saying that Chinese spies stole $1 ... Tags: china, canada, spies, CSIS, national security, intelligence ...
chineseinvancouver.blogspot.com/2007/05/chinese-spies-top-csiss-watchlist.html - 144k - Cached - Similar pages
Operation Sidewinder: In Canada spies are us
Operation Sidewinder, Canada spies, RCMP, CSIS Canadian Security & Intelligence Service, China, Chinese Intelligence Service, economic, political military ...
www.canadafreepress.com/2005/cover012605.htm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
China Spying
Canada's spy service (CSIS) said, in its 2003-04 report, that "China directs its departments, state-owned corporations and intelligence services ...
www.orwelltoday.com/chinaspy.shtml - 15k - Cached - Similar pages
Government vows to curb Chinese spying on Canada
16 Apr 2006 ... Government vows to curb Chinese spying on Canada ... a diminished competitive advantage," CSIS reported in a 2004 paper. ...
www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=ca90416e-fe77-4b8d-ae59-a4e9f55b6441&k=26688 - 62k - Cached - Similar pages
Lateline - 06/07/2005: Chinese defector makes spying claims in Canada
Chinese defector makes spying claims in Canada ... CSIS is doing everything that is necessary to ensure the collective security of Canadians. ...
www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1408570.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

Please note this is just the first page of responses there are many more.  Feel free to do the same for canada + csis + russia + spy.



> This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.



This is no more a waste of time then the Conservatives accusations that Alphonse Gagliano was a member of the Bonnano Crime Family or that Liberals colluded with terrorists to weaken Canada's national security laws during their last leadership run-which Harper took care not to say outside of the House so he did not get his pants sued off.   Harper opened the door on making personal attacks national security issues.  Please note that on November 24, 2005 in Question Period Harper decried alleged Liberal connections to organized crime (which there were none as again Harper took care not to repeat his comments outside the House) and yet it is no concern that his own cabinet ministers are connected.   Say what you want Bernier, but he left himself open to being a security risk and to blackmail and as a Minister of Her Majesty could have acted in a much more appropriate manner.      



> Whatever the long term solution, there's no place for turning this incident into Parliamentary circus.  Those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations on protecting the security of government information in the future.



How do you propose this when the goverment doesn't even think Cabinet minister's dating ex-biker babes is a problem.   Heck using Harper's logic Bernier could be dating a spy or a terrorist and it would be none of his business as these things are a personal matter and it would not be the right of Canadians to ask questions either as doing so would make us 'gossipy busbodies'.  If MP's don't want their personal life examined they should leave *public office*.


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## McG (9 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> ... This is no more a waste of time then the Conservatives accusations that Alphonse Gagliano was ....


Stop.  This is not germane to the topic at hand.  One wrong does not justify another, so we absolutely do not have to get into discussing this other incident unless your intent is simply to initiate a back & forth political mudslinging event (in which case I will leave the thread as I have no interest in such valueless contests).



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> How do you propose [that those who are concerned should come forward with recommendations] when the goverment doesn't even think Cabinet minister's dating ex-biker babes is a problem.


Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.


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## Rodahn (9 May 2008)

MCG said:
			
		

> Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.



I agree, unfortunately this is what Canadian politics has become, and has been for some time. From all federal party's.


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## stegner (9 May 2008)

> Stop.  This is not germane to the topic at hand.



But it is.  This shows precedence of prior accusations of involvement of organized crime of MP's and reactions and offers context.  But since I have raised the issue already I will not beat it to death.     



> Since the opposition sees a problem & is concerned, they could propose a solution.  So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.



But they have.  They say that spouses should be checked out by the security services, ergo a solution.  Instead of saying from now on its a good idea to make sure those that have access to minister's are not security threats the government is claiming that this is a personal attack and none of the opposition's business. 



> So far they have just exploited an opportunity to point fingers in public.



That is the job of the Official Opposition and is hardly unique to this situation.  
  
This is not a waste of time and tax money anymore than usual.  It's certainly better than the argument over the Monarchy and Quebec City that occurred on Wednesday.  This is not only a concern of security it is a concern of judgement and Bernier has shown some pretty bad judgement, such as his recent trip to Afghanistan.   As the opposition has noted this is just another example of the Minister of Foreign Affairs using bad judgement and they do not have confidence in him.  Why can't they admit that this is inappropriate?  For example, would it be appropriate for the RCMP Commissioner to date the ex-wife of an ex-Hell's Angel and ex-girlfriend of another biker?  Probably not.  Given that the FBI, Interpol and other foreign law enforcement agencies need the consent of Bernier to operate in Canada it was a conflict of interest also.


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## armyvern (9 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> But it is.  This shows precedence of prior accusations of involvement of organized crime of MP's and reactions and offers context.  But since I have raised the issue already I will not beat it to death.



What!!?? She was married to/and dated a biker *over a decade ago*. Recently she has dated an MP and this is somehow "evidence" or even "grounds" for showing that *an MP is involved in organized crime*?? Give me a break already.



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> That is the job of the Official Opposition and is hardly unique to this situation.



Their job is to act as opposition to the sitting government regarding policy matters etc which affect Canada and her economy/population/governance & security.

Only in the purple sky world is it to accuse someone of involvement in "organized" crime because he happened to date someone who happened to date a biker way back when.

This is NOT a national security issue, please don't try to insinuate that it is like the opposition is currently doing because, meanwhile, there are quite likely actual individuals who ARE concerns to our or the US national security entering through our "so very secure" borders this very week. All this crap does is take away from Parliament actually DOING it's job of being concerned (and acting on) with real matters of importance that need dealing with.


And, quite frankly, I'm one taxpaying Canadian citizen who is entirely fed up with the _pre-school romper-room-teeter-tottering_ and "pushs off the slide" occuring in Parliament these days -- It's NOT what I pay them for. It's all becoming one very expensive daycare center to some parties, and I'm not happy with that at all.


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## George Wallace (9 May 2008)

:

OK.  I now propose that we have all Members of Parliament submit not only their own, but their spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend, Security Clearances to CISIS for Lvl II Clearances, and all Members of Cabinet must do the same to Clear up to Lvl III.  This should take up to a min of two years for all to be done.   Members will not be able to associate with their Spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend until such time as they both have their Clearances signed off...............a great form of Birth Control.  

This could clean up the Gene Pool for a short period of time.


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## Rodahn (9 May 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> OK.  I now propose that we have all Members of Parliament submit not only their own, but their spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend, Security Clearances to CISIS for Lvl II Clearances, and all Members of Cabinet must do the same to Clear up to Lvl III.  This should take up to a min of two years for all to be done.   Members will not be able to associate with their Spouse/Girlfriend/Boyfriend until such time as they both have their Clearances signed off...............a great form of Birth Control.
> 
> This could clean up the Gene Pool for a short period of time.



How quickly could we get this enacted???


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## armyvern (9 May 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> How quickly could we get this enacted???



After lifelong background checks and security clearances for all past girlfriends/boyfriends/friends/family/acquaintences have been run through the system.

Also, we'll have to do that on each and every person involved in the process (and every person they've ever come into contact with throughout their lives -- and the people those people have come into contact with and so on and so on and so on) just to make sure that the oppostion can't claim "conspiracy to let one slip through the cracks" because person "X" over here entering the name into the computer system kissed a girl way back in Grade 2 who then went on to become a stripper 25 years later in a bar that a member of the Hells Angels was seen in 13 years ago.

I figure -- about 30 millineums.  :


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## Flip (9 May 2008)

> This really is not an issue that should have consumed any of the House of Commons' time.  Because of it, time would have been taken other more important issues with greater immediate relevance on far more Canadians.



Besides, don't we have people for this security stuff?

I don't think this belongs in the house - or in the public view.

Didn't the late P.E. Trudeau say something to the effect that the government
has no business in the bedrooms of the nation?  Not what he talking about at the time I know.  But really - this was not a proud moment for the liberals.

I'm with Vern.
What goes on in parliment has gotten a little slimey.
We hear less grand oratory about big ideas and we hear more cat calling and cheap shots.  Unfortunately, I think it's a reflection of our culture. What ever happened to 
"If you can't say something nice, then STFU"?


Vern......



> person "X" over here entering the name into the computer system kissed a girl way back in Grade 2 who then went on to become a stripper



What's wrong with being a stripper? One of my former employees became one.


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## Remius (9 May 2008)

Food for thought.

The Canadian Forces recruiting system asks applicants where they have travelled and if they have relatives living abroad.  Depending on the answer they have to submit to a pre-security screening process that can take up to two years before they can be enrolled.  This, based on the sole fact that they have a family member in a country that concerns us.  So someone who has a 75 year old mother in Latvia needs to be more thouroughly checked out than the average applicant.

One would think that Bernier would have been checked out as well at a much higher level, been cleared and deemed "reliable" and not a risk.  Meaning he can be trusted with our national secrets.  

I have two relationships (both close family) who have access to the same type of information Bernier would be privy to and neither of them have ever disclosed a thing to me.  why?  Because they take their jobs seriously and understand the value of confidentialty, even towards close relatives/husbands/wives etc.

The opposition can certainly ask if she's been privy to certain info.  If the answer is no then drop it.  If the RCMP suspect something let them handle it.


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## armyvern (9 May 2008)

Flip said:
			
		

> What ever happened to
> "If you can't say something nice, then STFU"?
> 
> 
> ...



Because it's NOT politically correct to say "Shut the fuck up and DO your job" anymore.

As for strippers ... who said there was anything wrong with it? Certainly not this girl.  

Tangent alert: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41921/post-705777.html#msg705777


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## stegner (9 May 2008)

When Bernier was sworn in August he brought Julie and she was a present girlfriend-at least present girlfriends should be checked out.  You don't necessarily have to go back 20 years but you should consider present girlfriends who have present access.  



> What!!?? She was married to/and dated a biker over a decade ago. Recently she has dated an MP and this is somehow "evidence" or even "grounds" for showing that an MP is involved in organized crime?? Give me a break already.



You are missing the context of this.  MCG was critiquing me for bring up prior accusations of Liberal MP's involvement in organized crime and terrorism by the Conservatives.  That is what I am referring to past attempts to link MP's to OC no matter how tenous.   

Btw a decade ago was smack in the middle of the biker war when innocent Canadian citizens lost their lives to car bombs and shootings.  Essentially domestic terrorism.    It was after the death of 11-Garold Daniel Desrochers and it was after the Canadian and Quebec government began the crackdown on bikers.   



> And, quite frankly, I'm one taxpaying Canadian citizen who is entirely fed up with the pre-school romper-room-teeter-tottering and "pushs off the slide" occurring in Parliament these days -- It's NOT what I pay them for. It's all becoming one very expensive daycare center to some parties, and I'm not happy with that at all.



This is hardly a recent development.  It's a daycare for *all *the parties not some of them as none is really better than the other behaviour wise.  



> This is NOT a national security issue, please don't try to insinuate that it is like the opposition is currently doing because, meanwhile, there are quite likely actual individuals who ARE concerns to our or the US national security entering through our "so very secure" borders this very week. All this crap does is take away from Parliament actually DOING it's job of being concerned (and acting on) with real matters of importance that need dealing with.



This is highly normative and you are no more qualified than I to make this assertion and I no more qualified than you to dispute it.  Let's leave it at that.  


Though do you not think that Bernier could use better judgement? In Afghanistan and picking dates?  

Moreover, the government does not seem to be raising your concerns either.    Maybe the Minister of Public Safety needs to be doing his job better, ditto the PM to ensure are borders are secure all this stuff is going on during their watch.  Not the oppositions fault however, since they don't have the power to coerce the government to act.


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## armyvern (9 May 2008)

Stenger,

I'm going to assume then, that you, when first thinking about dating a girl, have run background checks on her and all her past "dates", friends and acquaintences. You seem to think that this is acceptable and normal. Word up --- MPs _*HAVE*_ already completed security screenings and background checks --- and he seems to have made it through that just fine OR he wouldn't BE in the position he's in. Remember that, because you seemingly are quite adept at forgetting that little fact.

Seeing as how the Hells Angels thought about killing her, and Sirois was given the choice to "choose her *OR* the Angels" ... I'd say that apparently the Hells Angels didn't hold her too close to their bosom no?

As for this bit:



> Btw a decade ago was smack in the middle of the biker war when innocent Canadian citizens lost their lives to car bombs and shootings.  Essentially domestic terrorism.    It was after the death of 11-Garold Daniel Desrochers and it was after the Canadian and Quebec government began the crackdown on bikers.



What bearing does that event have on an MP who used to date a girl, who used to be married to guy who chose her over the Hells Angels Group who had no time for her?

They are not related events. Your point is a simple scare tactic trying to link the two. Now, I suspect you'll argue that somehow this ex-girlfriend played an indirect role in the above crime and ergo she, and by association Bernier, now poses a national security risk? Apparently, YOU are qualified to make this link.  :

It's not me living in the playground that some like to think is the real world.


----------



## Remius (9 May 2008)

Personally, Bernier's comments while he was in Afghanistan are more of a story than who he's dating.  But one sells more than the other so...


----------



## armyvern (9 May 2008)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Personally, Bernier's comments while he was in Afghanistan are more of a story than who he's dating.  But one sells more than the other so...



Well, I'm quite sure ... with the seizing of Aid currently occuring in Burma ... and with Bernier's having offered up the DART as a response to that disaster ... that the opposition will soon be standing within the _hallowed halls _ to claim that he's caused those Burmese events simply to take the Canadian public's minds off this "so very important issue of National Security."  :


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 May 2008)

I was watching CBC this morning interviewing a security consultant, who was rather dismissive of the attempt by the reporter to make this a huge affair, he kept saying that RCMP noted the concern, passed it up to the PMO, who advised Beriner, who cut off relations, end of story.


----------



## armyvern (9 May 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I was watching CBC this morning interviewing a security consultant, who was rather dismissive of the attempt by the reporter to make this a huge affair, he kept saying that RCMP noted the concern, passed it up to the PMO, who advised Beriner, who cut off relations, end of story.



Exactly. But, hey when you're the opposition -- facts don't matter, you just have to spin it into a "matter of gravest importance to national security and vital importance to the Canadian public" because it looks good in the headlines. The twits. So, the RCMP and Bernier have dealt with the matter and continue going about their jobs -- when the heck is the opposition going to STFU and get back to actual "business"?


----------



## Remius (9 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, I'm quite sure ... with the seizing of Aid currently occuring in Burma ... and with Bernier's having offered up the DART as a response to that disaster ... that the opposition will soon be standing within the _hallowed halls _ to claim that he's caused those Burmese events simply to take the Canadian public's minds off this "so very important issue of National Security."  :



Nah, the Conservatives will announce the next CDS to get the media off his back


----------



## a_majoor (9 May 2008)

Really, this is nothing more than another drive by smear. Like all the others to date,they fail the all important test:

*People who make the accusations are required to supply the proof*

Like all the other "issues" raised to date, from Chuck Cadman to Brian Mulroney to "In and Out" and beyond, the opposition makes claims which are defamatory but never actually supply proof that any of these things actually happened (or happened in the way that is implied). Indeed, the Prime Minister has launched a libel action against the Liberal Party for openly making such statements on their website.

You may accuse all you want, but if you are unable or unwilling to stand up and present documentation, witnesses, bank records and other evidence, then you are really only crying "Wolf" and simply erode your own credibility. The only puzzeling thing I find in these affairs is how swift the MSM is to broadcast these claims while they remain silent and never dig deeper into issues where there _is_ evidence of wrongdoing. (ADSCAM is only the tip of the iceberg in that regard....)


----------



## c1984ml (9 May 2008)

Spouse here (with dh's knowledge   )



> Maybe the Minister of Public Safety needs to be doing his job better, ditto the PM to ensure are borders are secure all this stuff is going on during their watch.


 I've been following the twists and turns and leaps of logic on this thread and apparently my brain has been twisted far too hard because for the life of me, I can not understand how the ex-wife of a biker dating an MP has affected the security of our borders.


----------



## armyvern (9 May 2008)

c1984ml said:
			
		

> I can not understand how the ex-wife of a biker dating an MP has affected the security of our borders.



You're safe here. It doesn't.


----------



## stegner (9 May 2008)

> I can not understand how the ex-wife of a biker dating an MP has affected the security of our borders.



You are quite right.  Though I am not sure how you came to that conclusion as no one has stated this here.  However, ArmyVern presented the argument Parliament and the opposition should not be concerned with this matter of Bernier's biker babe, but with the security of our borders given recent concerns expressed by the Auditor General.   I noted that the fault of our current situation lay not with Parliament or the opposition, but with the PM and Minister of Public Safety who are responsible for the borders.  It was a brief tangent that's all.


----------



## aesop081 (9 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> When Bernier was sworn in August he brought Julie and she was a present girlfriend-at least present girlfriends should be checked out.  You don't necessarily have to go back 20 years but you should consider present *girlfriends who have present access*.



Access to what ?

She was his girlfriend, of course she had access to HIM......Duhh !!

Access to sensitive information ? Are you saying that because she is his girlfriend , Bernier told/showed her sensitive information ? 

I'm sorry but people around me are used to hearing "I can't talk about it"..........


----------



## stegner (9 May 2008)

> Access to sensitive information ? Are you saying that because she is his girlfriend , Bernier told/showed her sensitive information ?



Not necessarily, but when she traveled to the Middle East with him she was exposed to certain things that the average Canadian is not.  Mr. Bernier also brings documents home.  What steps are made to ensure not only in this instance, but others as well, that those documents that are sensitive are stored securely?



> I'm sorry but people around me are used to hearing "I can't talk about it"



Good for you.  Loose lips sink ships.  







She is a looker though.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 May 2008)

Sooo, she came back from the ME and reported to her biker handlers what, exactly, that would be of benefit to them?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 May 2008)

This is starting to go down the National Enquirer code of journalism.


----------



## stegner (9 May 2008)

Hypothetically?

Here's a quick one.  Biker's are in the drug business.  Afghanistan has most of the world's heroin and lots of weed too.   CF transportation policies in the ME (i.e. where they land for stopover & refuel) might be of use to people who are in the drug business and would like to smuggle drugs into Canada.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 May 2008)

So she learned that:
a)  The CF airplane she rode on loaded up at a CF air base,
b)  The CF airplane she rode on stopped for fuel in the ME
c)  The CF airplane she rode on took her to a secure base in Afghanistan
d)  There is lots of drugs in Afghanistan
e)  The CF airplane she rode on took off from a secure base in Afghanistan
f)   The CF airplane she rode on refueled somewhere on the way back
g)  The CF airplane she rode on landed back here in Canada

Yup, I'm convinced, all vital info for a bunch of guys who usually just funnel their dope through much more accessible means, such as border rez's.


----------



## George Wallace (9 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Hypothetically?
> 
> Here's a quick one.  Biker's are in the drug business.  Afghanistan has most of the world's heroin and lots of weed too.   CF transportation policies in the ME (i.e. where they land for stopover & refuel) might be of use to people who are in the drug business and would like to smuggle drugs into Canada.



Talk about grasping at straws.


----------



## stegner (9 May 2008)

> Talk about grasping at straws.



Well at least I am answering the questions posed to me on this thread.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Well at least I am answering the questions posed to me on this thread.



Hilariously, one must add.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 May 2008)

Geez, I bet she knows where the host nation is too.  :


----------



## Retired AF Guy (10 May 2008)

Stumbled onto this thread rather late in the discussion, but since we are discussing security concerns, and having spent 25+ years in the intel business I thought I would throw-in my two cents. 

 First off, I agree with most of the posters here that this a big deal over nothing. Yes, the lady in question was once associated with the a member of the Hell's Angel’s (apart from this connection no one has presented any evidence that she was actually involved in HA business), but that was 10 years ago and so far no one has presented any evidence that she still maintains any ties with the organization. Heck, according to the Montreal Gazette article posted at the beginning of this thread, it appears that Couillard’s marriage to Sirois was partially responsible for his decision to become a police informant.

I think ArmyVern’s comment below says it all:   



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Stenger,
> 
> Seeing as how the Hells Angels thought about killing her, and Sirois was given the choice to "choose her *OR* the Angels" ... I'd say that apparently the Hells Angels didn't hold her too close to their bosom no?



BTW, if the HA were trying to infiltrate someone into the government I doubt they would use someone with known connections to them, however remote. 



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> Not necessarily, but when she travelled to the Middle East with him she was exposed to certain things that the average Canadian is not.



Such as? The fact that they landed at a not-so-secret base in middle of the desert? Since the beginning of our mission thousands of military and civilian personnel have traveled through Camp Mirage so the idea that there is anything secret about the place was lost a long time ago. 



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> Mr. Bernier also brings documents home.  What steps are made to ensure not only in this instance, but others as well, that those documents that are sensitive are stored securely?



First off, how do you know if Mr Bernier brings documents home or not? Secondly, it is against security regulations to take classified documents home. Yes, permission can be obtained, but only in special circumstances and the material has to be stored in a security container (safe/cabinet) appropriate for the classification of material being stored in it. And, if I remember correctly (I could be wrong) the house/apartment has to be inspected by the security folks to make sure its OK (e.g. secure location/doors/windows/storage container/etc).

Thirdly, Mr Bernier is the MP for the riding of Beauce (located south of Quebec City), so its unlikely, he would have permission to take documents that distance. Like most MP’s Bernier likely has an apartment in the Ottawa area, but unless the apartment is really secure, its unlikely he would be able to store documents there. 



			
				stegner said:
			
		

> Here's a quick one.  Biker's are in the drug business.  Afghanistan has most of the world's heroin and lots of weed too.   CF transportation policies in the ME (i.e. where they land for stopover & refuel) might be of use to people who are in the drug business and would like to smuggle drugs into Canada.



And the Military Police and Canada Customs (or whatever they call themselves these days) don’t already know this? I’ve never been to Afghan but I’m willing to bet that when our guys/girls land in Canada the MP’s/Customs folks are waiting to check their baggage (and aircraft). Plus, security in Kandahar is pretty intense I understand so it would be pretty tricky to smuggle any drugs through multiple levels of security without getting caught. 

Well, there's my two cents worth. Its Saturday morning and I've got things to do. Talk with you folks later.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (11 May 2008)

The story gets more interesting. Apparently, this news about Couillard's links to the Angel's has been common knowledge among the Ottawa media but they considered it a non-issue. However, the Liberals and Bloc have been lobbying them to report it for some time. More info here:

http://stevejanke.com/archives/262078.php

http://www.thestar.com/Canada/Columnist/article/423208


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> but that was 10 years ago



How do we know that was 10 years ago.  Impossible for you or I to know, especially since no one investigated whether she has *present* connections to outlaw biker gangs.



> BTW, if the HA were trying to infiltrate someone into the government I doubt they would use someone with known connections to them, however remote.



But Bernier claims he did not know about her connections until after the fact.  Therefore, she was not known by government to have known connections.



> First off, how do you know if Mr Bernier brings documents home or not? Secondly, it is against security regulations to take classified documents home. Yes, permission can be obtained, but only in special circumstances and the material has to be stored in a security container (safe/cabinet) appropriate for the classification of material being stored in it. And, if I remember correctly (I could be wrong) the house/apartment has to be inspected by the security folks to make sure its OK (e.g. secure location/doors/windows/storage container/etc).T*hirdly, Mr Bernier is the MP for the riding of Beauce (located south of Quebec City), so its unlikely, he would have permission to take documents that distance.* Like most MP’s Bernier likely has an apartment in the Ottawa area, but unless the apartment is really secure, its unlikely he would be able to store documents there.



Just because these are the rules for military intelligence (if that's where you spent 25+ years in) doesn't mean they apply for Cabinet ministers.  

Most concerning to me are these excerpts from the Calgary Sun (noone can claim this paper to have a liberal bias).  



> Fri, May 9, 2008
> Girlfriend said to have stood out in crowd
> 
> OTTAWA -- The cabinet minister's girlfriend always stood out in the diplomatic crowd that *inhabits the foreign affairs building.*
> ...



http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2008/05/09/5517336-sun.html

There is more to this story than her HA connections.  But let's forget about investigating it because she was a girlfriend of Bernier.   In my opinion this is a big sign for foreign intelligence services that Canada has lax security measures.  Why bother trying to infiltrate DND, CSIS, CSE, RCMP, IAS, SIS, DFAIT's SIB, TCI, OCIPEP, CBSA or any other Canadian intelligence service-all you need is to date a minister to get access and apparently influence.  All the opposition is saying is that Cabinet minister's need to be thoroughly checked out to ensure that there are no breaches.  It doesn't have to be every MP or even every government MP just those that have access to more sensitive materials than most.


----------



## armyvern (12 May 2008)

S     T     R     E     T     C     H

& grasp a little bit more; it's getting entertaining.


----------



## George Wallace (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Just because these are the rules for military intelligence (if that's where you spent 25+ years in) doesn't mean they apply for Cabinet ministers.



OK!

I would say that now you are blowing things out of your _________.  You are way outside of your sphere of knowledge and really should drop it.


----------



## Rodahn (12 May 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> S     T     R     E     T     C     H



And how much of s stretch is it considering this thread?

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71137.0.html

Considering that it was a much more personal and possibly/probably intimate relationship???


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> OK!
> 
> I would say that now you are blowing things out of your _________.  You are way outside of your sphere of knowledge and really should drop it.



Gee How much time have you spent in the PCO, PMO or Cabinet or the supporting bodies? Places that would allow you to discuss this matter of Cabinet minister's intelligently?

Answer: 0 years.

But hey don't let that get in the way of making unbecoming comments with scant evidence to justify your position and pretending that you know better.  A long career in the military does not make one an expert in everything or even on security for that matter.  I would defer to you on matters of armoured warfare-but on other matters such as Canadian politics, public policy and history not so much.   

Alas, this post is only a stretch insofar as it makes the Conservatives look bad.  If this were a Liberal Cabinet Minister I imagine the responses would be much different?  I didn't write the article in the Calgary Sun-but than it must be propaganda as the MSM is out to get Harper right?  I have heard similar arguments and other conspiracy made repeatedly on this site- now those are a stretch.


----------



## George Wallace (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Gee How much time have you spent in the PCO, PMO or Cabinet or the supporting bodies? Places that would allow you to discuss this matter of Cabinet minister's intelligently?
> 
> Answer: 0 years.



Friggin Brilliant.

What do you have in the way of Security Knowledge?

Answer:   Ziltch!


----------



## Rodahn (12 May 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What do you have in the way of Security Knowledge?
> 
> Answer:   Ziltch!



Do you know that for sure George, or are you making an assumption?

On another note, how many of the personnel on this site know for a fact that the lady in question no longer has any connection to biker gangs? If the answer is not definitive, then does there not exist the possibility of a security concern?


----------



## Teeps74 (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Hypothetically?
> 
> Here's a quick one.  Biker's are in the drug business.  Afghanistan has most of the world's heroin and lots of weed too.   CF transportation policies in the ME (i.e. where they land for stopover & refuel) might be of use to people who are in the drug business and would like to smuggle drugs into Canada.



You're funny, but unfortunately not in a good way. Your resources would be better spent on something that is not a non-issue like this.

Oh, and before you start, my reaction would be the same regardless of political party.


----------



## George Wallace (12 May 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> Do you know that for sure George, or are you making an assumption?



From his posts, I would say that he has absolutely no concept of what Security is.  His lack of knowledge in Security matters is quite obvious.  Is that an assumption?  I don't thinks so.


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> From his posts, I would say that he has absolutely no concept of what Security is.  His lack of knowledge in Security matters is quite obvious.  Is that an assumption?  I don't thinks so.



Sticks and stones.   Funny how you can't articulate an argument that has some evidence in it.  Gotta love argumentum ad hominem.  Oh well.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (12 May 2008)

I wouldn't start a  :argument: with the MODS cause we all know who will win.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> ...
> There is more to this story than her HA connections.  But let's forget about investigating it because she was a girlfriend of Bernier.   In my opinion this is a big sign for foreign intelligence services that Canada has lax security measures.  Why bother trying to infiltrate DND, CSIS, CSE, RCMP, IAS, SIS, DFAIT's SIB, TCI, OCIPEP, CBSA or any other Canadian intelligence service-all you need is to date a minister to get access and apparently influence.  All the opposition is saying is that Cabinet minister's need to be thoroughly checked out to ensure that there are no breaches.  It doesn't have to be every MP or even every government MP just those that have access to more sensitive materials than most.



I doubt that:

•	There is much of anything more to this story than cheap, ward heeling but desperate Québecois politicians (Bloc and Liberal alike) trying to sully the reputation of the gang (_Parti conservateur du Canada_) that is wiping the floor with them (BQ and PLC) in Québec; and

•	The security services of Canada are much if any less vigilant than those of other countries. The business of “screening” elected politicians and their families/friends is fraught with difficulty. Some security professionals would like to think that elected politicians are just like anyone else and are subject to all the same security rules. Others accept the fact that the “people” have an overarching “knowledge” about the trustworthiness of the people they elect. How else, one wonders, was Pierre Elliot Trudeau ever allowed to read any state papers?


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> The security services of Canada are much if any less vigilant than those of other countries. The business of “screening” elected politicians and their families/friends is fraught with difficulty. Some security professionals would like to think that elected politicians are just like anyone else and are subject to all the same security rules. Others accept the fact that the “people” have an overarching “knowledge” about the trustworthiness of the people they elect. *How else, one wonders, was Pierre Elliot Trudeau ever allowed to read any state papers? *



Indeed.  There must have been some in the old RCMP security service (and elsewhere) that were thinking: Damn it that communist hippy now has access to all the state secrets.   hahaha  ;D


----------



## c_canuk (12 May 2008)

It's amusing to see security risk described as a venereal disease


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> It's amusing to see security risk described as a venereal disease



Come again?  Sorry I am slow today.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Indeed.  There must have been some in the old RCMP security service (and elsewhere) that were thinking: Damn it that communist hippy now has access to all the state secrets.   hahaha  ;D



I'm reasonably certain that almost everyone in all the security services, along with a sizable minority of Canadians, thought exactly that.

The question then becomes: in what way is Bernier worse than Trudeau?

Of course he’s not, but Gilles Duceppe and Celine Stéphane Dion are sadly and markedly inferior (in all respects) to Robert Stanfield, Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney – all of whom despised Trudeau but refrained from trying to dirty him through low, personal attacks.


----------



## c_canuk (12 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Come again?  Sorry I am slow today.



some people are posing that Bernier is a security risk because his EX girlfriend was married to a member of an organization 9 years ago that may have been a security risk, as though the risk was communicatable via intercourse.

it sounds exactly the same as the sex education lectures we got in highschool except VD has been replaced with security risk.

I can almost hear the teacher saying
"Remember kids, you aren't just exchanging information with your partner but with everyone they have exchanged information with in the past"


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (12 May 2008)

My only contribution to this thread is that I think the girlfriend is a very good looking woman.

Maxime, I salute you....you dirty dog.


Matthew.    ;D


----------



## stegner (12 May 2008)

> The question then becomes: in what way is Bernier worse than Trudeau?



He is not.  Both were playboys.  This has been a long time coming then: Canada's playboy and playgirl Cabinet minister's and their playmates must be more thoroughly checked out security wise.  Should have been done way back in Borden's time let alone Trudeau's.  



> I can almost hear the teacher saying
> "Remember kids, you aren't just exchanging information with your partner but with everyone they have exchanged information with in the past"



Too funny ;D  



> Maxime, I salute you....you dirty dog.



+1 Perhaps this all a tempest in a d-cup?


----------



## Retired AF Guy (13 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> How do we know that was 10 years ago.



 We know that because that's what all the newspapers are reporting. The marriage between Sirois and Couillard took in the mid-to-late '90's: close enough to 10 years for me. 



> Impossible for you or I to know, especially since no one investigated whether she has *present* connections to outlaw biker gangs.



You're right, we don't know if she has been investigated recently by any security/police agency. However, there are a couple of good reporters in Canada and Quebec who keep tabs on the Hell's Angel's (and other motorcycle gangs), including one from Quebec who caught a couple bullets because the HA didn't like what he was reporting. If these reporters suspected of any connections between Couillard and the HA, they would have written on it by now.  



> But Bernier claims he did not know about her connections until after the fact.  Therefore, she was not known by government to have known connections.



As my British friends would say "Bollocks!" Sirois was known to police as being a member of the HA's . They would have to be pretty stupid not to know about his marriage to Couillard, therefore she would have been in the police databases. True, Bernier may not of know about her connections; he wouldn't have been the first person to find out his/her new love interest had a shady past. I'm also willing to bet that when Couillard showed up on Bernier's arm last summer during his swearing in ceremony, there were a few police officers in Quebec who would have recognized her face/name. If there was any suspicion of her continued connections to a criminal group you-know-what would have hit the fan then, not nine months later. 

 I would also like to point out that the only connection that anybody has shown between Couillard and the HA was her marriage to Sirois, and another former boyfriend who ended up in the ditch. So far no one, that I know of, has shown that had actually engaged in any criminal activity, suspected or otherwise. Dumb activity to associate with known criminals true, but everyone makes mistakes. As the Gazette points she almost got whacked herself because of those associations.



> Just because these are the rules for military intelligence (if that's where you spent 25+ years in) doesn't mean they apply for Cabinet ministers.



The handling of classified information is the same throughout the Canadian government whether the person is a cabinet minister, CSIS officer or some lowly private. And you will just have to take my word for it because I'm not going into any more details.  



> Most concerning to me are these excerpts from the Calgary Sun (noone can claim this paper to have a liberal bias).
> 
> http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2008/05/09/5517336-sun.html



When I was in the military and I received a report from an unknown source that quoted unverified information I would treat it with caution: I wouldn't shred it, but put it aside with a question mark beside it until it was verified from another source. The same goes for this newspaper report. 



> All the opposition is saying is that Cabinet minister's need to be thoroughly checked out to ensure that there are no breaches.  It doesn't have to be every MP or even every government MP just those that have access to more sensitive materials than most.


  

I believe that some people here have already ready stated that MP's are already security screened prior to assuming a cabinet post. In fact , from I understand, they get vetted by their own parties, (not be CSIS or any other agency) before they even become MP's. 

What the opposition is out to do is score political points by embarrassing the CPC and the PM, with the ultimate goal of forcing Bernier to resign his cabinet post. Nothing more or nothing less Welcome to politics's, Canadian or otherwise.


----------



## stegner (13 May 2008)

> You're right, we don't know if she has been investigated recently by any security/police agency. However, there are a couple of good reporters in Canada and Quebec who keep tabs on the Hell's Angel's (and other motorcycle gangs), including one from Quebec who caught a couple bullets because the HA didn't like what he was reporting. If these reporters suspected of any connections between Couillard and the HA, they would have written on it by now.



Sure-but even folks like Michel Auger can't know everything about bikers.  Just as reporters covering the DND beat don't know everything on what goes on in the CF.   Biker gangs are highly sophisticated organizations as they employ counter-intelligence units of their own to keep tabs for example on were the cops investigating them live and such.  Very scary stuff.   



> I would also like to point out that the only connection that anybody has shown between Couillard and the HA was her marriage to Sirois, and another former boyfriend who ended up in the ditch. So far no one, that I know of, has shown that had actually engaged in any criminal activity, suspected or otherwise. Dumb activity to associate with known criminals true, but everyone makes mistakes. As the Gazette points she almost got whacked herself because of those associations.



Madame Couillard was once arrested along with some her HA friends though never charged for extorting a real estate agent.  Madame Couillard profession is as a real estate agent.   So I am a little suspicious of that incident though she has the presumption of innocence before guilt.   However, it's not uncommon people to drop charges against HA for obvious reasons.   I am not saying that this is the case in this instance.  



> When I was in the military and I received a report from an unknown source that quoted unverified information I would treat it with caution: I wouldn't shred it, but put it aside with a question mark beside it until it was verified from another source. The same goes for this newspaper report.



That is an excellent practice.



> What the opposition is out to do is score political points by embarrassing the CPC and the PM, with the ultimate goal of forcing Bernier to resign his cabinet post. Nothing more or nothing less Welcome to politics's, Canadian or otherwise.



Sure but as Michel Fortier said if the shoe was on the other foot they would be doing the same thing.  I think the larger issue here is that Bernier by his own admission knows very little on geopolitics and has demonstrated this on occasion.  He is simply not qualified to be foreign minister.  I think he is only foreign minister because he is the most prominent member of the Cabinet from Quebec.   If he were from Saskatchewan I think he would have gotten his walking papers a while ago.


----------



## Kyu (13 May 2008)

I think Stephen Harper will deal with him as he usually do when his ministers are in trouble. He will let the dust settle a little bit, then shuffle him out of harm's way. Just like he did to Rona Ambrose. That way, Harper will think he did not appear to give ground to the opposition, while the opposition (of course) will think he did. 

But that's what politics is all about : appearances.


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> ... I think the larger issue here is that Bernier by his own admission knows very little on geopolitics and has demonstrated this on occasion.  He is simply not qualified to be foreign minister.  I think he is only foreign minister because he is the most prominent member of the Cabinet from Quebec.   If he were from Saskatchewan I think he would have gotten his walking papers a while ago.



And I think you’re grasping at straws to defend the indefensible. How would that make him different from, say, Jean Chrétien (Minister of External Affairs in the short lived John Turner government) or Allan J MacEachen (Minister of External Affairs twice, under Trudeau)?

Both, like almost all ministers, were appointed for purely partisan political reasons: regional representation, political pay-off or pay-back, linguistic balance and so on. Both Peter MacKay and Jean Chrétien appear to have coveted the External/Foreign Affairs job and also appear to have gotten it as a ‘consolation prize’ after finishing second in party leadership races.


----------



## stegner (14 May 2008)

I don't see what your problem was with Chretien and MacEachen-both had considerable cabinet experience having served sine the 1960's.  Chretien practically served in every Cabinet portfolio before being made Foreign Minister.  MacEachen would serve in a multitude of positions also prior to foreign minister.   Afterwards, he serve as an advisor to DFAIT for the sum of one dollar a year when he retired from the senate in 1996.  I don't think DFAIT would even pay a dollar for Bernier's advice.  Your reading of Chretien as being appointed to appease Quebec is off as he was quite hated by sovereigntists and was not especially popular there due to his role in bringing in the Charter and preventing a referendum loss.  At that time even the federalists in Quebec were not very found of him.  While Chretien was PM he was pretty respected by leaders all over the world, particularly in the Caribbean and in Europe.  Rather than viewing these appointments as appeasement for purely political reasons I would characterize them as rewarding loyal and experienced Cabinet ministers.  Just because they were not from Ontario doesn't that they were appointed for purely political reasons to appease regional concerns.   There is more to Canada than just Ontario as smart and intelligent people live outside that province.     

In my view the initial successes of Mackay and Bernier comes from the fact that both of their fathers were Cabinet ministers in the Mulroney government.  Both won their dad's old seats and had the support of many of their dad's supporters.  They rode their dad's coattails a la Belinda.   The difference between them though is that MacKay has proven himself competent in every position he has been-Bernier has not in any position that he has been.


----------



## armyvern (14 May 2008)

So now Bernier is "not competant". Because he dated a girl for a couple of months a short while ago who had been married to a biker over a decade ago? 

Only in the world of a segment of poli-sci *acadaemia* could this be the case ...

I feel very relieved knowing that there are more poli-sci academics around here who hold the opposite viewpoint.


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> I don't see what your problem was with Chretien and MacEachen-both had considerable cabinet experience having served sine the 1960's.  Chretien practically served in every Cabinet portfolio before being made Foreign Minister.  MacEachen would serve in a multitude of positions also prior to foreign minister.   Afterwards, he serve as an advisor to DFAIT for the sum of one dollar a year when he retired from the senate in 1996.  I don't think DFAIT would even pay a dollar for Bernier's advice.  Your reading of Chretien as being appointed to appease Quebec is off as he was quite hated by sovereigntists and was not especially popular there due to his role in bringing in the Charter and preventing a referendum loss.  At that time even the federalists in Quebec were not very found of him.  While Chretien was PM he was pretty respected by leaders all over the world, particularly in the Caribbean and in Europe.  Rather than viewing these appointments as appeasement for purely political reasons I would characterize them as rewarding loyal and experienced Cabinet ministers.  Just because they were not from Ontario doesn't that they were appointed for purely political reasons to appease regional concerns.   There is more to Canada than just Ontario as smart and intelligent people live outside that province.
> 
> In my view the initial successes of Mackay and Bernier comes from the fact that both of their fathers were Cabinet ministers in the Mulroney government.  Both won their dad's old seats and had the support of many of their dad's supporters.  They rode their dad's coattails a la Belinda.   The difference between them though is that MacKay has proven himself competent in every position he has been-Bernier has not in any position that he has been.



With respect, Allan J MacEachen was Tudeau’s elected political fixer – that’s why he was in cabinet. He was given a series of posts that allowed him to nearly totally ignore his portfolio responsibilities while he devoted most of his efforts to partisan political matters – including, especially, the allocation of _pork_. He moved from portfolio to portfolio because he could not be left in any one for too long without doing some real harm to _governance_. He liked External Affairs for its _comfort_ and Trudeau never minded if External Affairs was badly led and managed.

As I mentioned, Chrétien got External as a leadership race consolation prize, as did MacKay and Joe Clark. Earlier he got finance despite his nearly total lack of _gravitas_ because Trudeau wanted to *prove* that almost any French Canadian could be the Finance Minister – the fact that we ended up with 20% mortgages and out of control inflation was not Chrétien’s fault and even Trudeau only gets about 20% of the blame, the other 80% being out of Canada’s hands, no matter how inept and corrupt the government might have been, and Trudeau’s was both.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (14 May 2008)

This drivel still going on?

Anyone who thinks that the HA would send someone with ties back to them that were that easy to trace is a complete moron anyway and should be posting in the kiddie forum.
Bottom line......


----------



## McG (14 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Sure but as Michel Fortier said if the shoe was on the other foot they would be doing the same thing.


So, you are defending muck-racking in Canadian politics on the backward argument that the other party would do the same?  A little lesson that we like to teach young children is that something is not necessarily right just because someone else is doing it.  If it is wrong then it is wrong (regardless of it being your team).

Muck-racking is wrong.  It takes the focus and time away from issues of national importance and gives the main effort to childish finger-pointing (in hopes of collecting votes).

If you want to argue that a 10 year ago connection to the Hells Angels is a security risk today, then go fill your boots.  Don't make yourself out to be a fool by defending muck-racking by a (any) political party.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 May 2008)

tick, tock, tick, tock. This has just about reached the end of its tether. If anyone has any last words they want to sum up their 'stance' with, better lay them out quick.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## stegner (14 May 2008)

> tick, tock, tick, tock. This has just about reached the end of its tether. If anyone has any last words they want to sum up their 'stance' with, better lay them out quick.



I hear ya.  No one has contributed any evidence one way or the other let's lock this up.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 May 2008)

........and done.


----------



## stegner (26 May 2008)

> Maxime Bernier resigns as foreign affairs minister
> Updated Mon. May. 26 2008 7:35 PM ET
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> ...



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080526/harper_bernier_080526/20080526?hub=TopStories


----------



## PMedMoe (26 May 2008)

I read this news story earlier and it looks like the opposition was going to ask for his resignation anyway.



> Bernier's record of gaffes indefensible: Ignatieff
> 
> Updated Sun. May. 25 2008 9:35 PM ET
> 
> ...



More on link.


----------



## Yrys (26 May 2008)

Canadian foreign minister resigns

"Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Monday that the country's foreign minister has resigned for leaving classified documents in a nonsecure location."


----------



## RangerRay (26 May 2008)

As he should.  There's no excuse for such a breach at his level.


----------



## 1feral1 (27 May 2008)

At least he has resigned, not hung around leaving a shyteload full of lies and excuses.

A good decision to make.

When you fuck-up pay the piper and soldier on.


----------



## Kalatzi (27 May 2008)

Ok, so he fallen on his sword. 

Seems to have some personality though ...

Not afraid to say what he thinks ... 
The Lady as Canada's answer to Mrs Sarkozy??   

Next leader of the Liberals???  >


----------



## Yrys (27 May 2008)

Kalatzi said:
			
		

> Seems to have some personality though ...
> 
> Not afraid to say what he thinks ...



Is that what you define as personality ?


----------



## Zell_Dietrich (27 May 2008)

Sad story.  When the Libs and Bloc were pulling the Jerry-Springer high school "you are dating someone who dated someone gingy" I took great pleasure in that I didn't know a single person who thought it was appropriate for them to do so.  (I even asked strangers on the subway, and people I knew were card carrying Liberals)

And then.... there actually turned out to be a legitimate issue around security.

dang nabbit.  

I just hope this isn't used as an excuse to erode the legitimate rights of public office holders to a private life.


----------



## observor 69 (27 May 2008)

Many weeks ago Bob Rae asked the government a simple question :

"Liberal MP Bob Rae respectfully asked Van Loan to simply confirm that the government has ensured there is no security problem. 

"I am sure that would go a long way to satisfying members of the House that in fact the appropriate steps have been taken," said Rae. 

Van Loan said the government takes national security very seriously, adding: "We do not see that asking questions about the private lives of ministers in the fashion that the opposition has fits that bill." 

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/05/09/5522251-cp.html


----------



## Yrys (28 May 2008)

Go see THAT picture, post by a journalist, blogging in french from the U.S. :

picture of Julie Couillard with a well know politician, who is thought to have said :

"”Maxime, well, well, well haven’t you been keeping good company.”


----------



## Greymatters (28 May 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> Is that what you define as personality ?



Saying dumb things in a clear and confident tone of authority doesnt make them any less dumb...


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 May 2008)

This imbroglio points up the perils of _cabinet making_ in Canada (and, to some degree in Australia, Britain, Germany and India, too).

The cabinet *should* be well stocked with men and women of considerable ability and integrity.

In Canada, especially, the cabinet *MUST* be full of:

•	An _appropriate_ mix of regional and linguistic representatives – regardless of ability or integrity;

•	An _appropriate_ mix of men and women – again, without regard to either ability or integrity;

•	Politicians who must be rewarded for past service to the leader or the party – ability and integrity optional;

•	Political foes of the leaders - based on Sun-tzu’s old adage _“keep your friends close and your enemies closer”_ – ability and integrity not required; and

•	Major political _’operators’_ – like Allan MacEachen during the Trudeau era. In this case ability is often a given but integrity is frequently totally absent. 

Sadly, for Canada, Harper must make his cabinets according to our well established traditions and he has pretty thin pickings from some regions.


----------



## McG (28 May 2008)

> Five-week gap fuels outrage in Bernier affair
> CAMPBELL CLARK and DANIEL LEBLANC AND BRIAN LAGHI
> From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
> May 27, 2008 at 10:00 PM EDT
> ...


 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080527.wbernier28/BNStory/Front/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp


----------



## Greymatters (29 May 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In this case ability is often a given but integrity is frequently totally absent.



I believe the current popular term for this is "ethically challenged"...


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 May 2008)

And, see this, please, for an alternate *theory* of the events.


----------



## stegner (29 May 2008)

I think a set-up is a bit of an overstatement.  Did the Foreign Service know what was going on?  Could they have warned Bernier and Harper ahead of time.  I would answer yes to all these questions.  Why didn't they?  Not because they are full of partisan Liberals-but because Harper and Bernier have substantially alienated the Foreign Service (morale is now very low) and this was an opportunity for them to serve the Harper government their just desserts.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> I think a set-up is a bit of an overstatement.  Did the Foreign Service know what was going on?  Could they have warned Bernier and Harper ahead of time.  I would answer yes to all these questions.  Why didn't they?  Not because they are full of partisan Liberals-but because Harper and Bernier have substantially alienated the Foreign Service (morale is now very low) and this was an opportunity for them to serve the Harper government their just desserts.



When the Liberals ran the government, I absolutely despised them and their incompetence and likely corruption. However those were my personal opinions and as long as they were doing lawful stuff I never attempted to sabotage them or allowed a trainwreck without advising them of the possibility.


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> I think a set-up is a bit of an overstatement.  Did the Foreign Service know what was going on?  Could they have warned Bernier and Harper ahead of time.  I would answer yes to all these questions.  Why didn't they?  Not because they are full of partisan Liberals-but because *Harper and Bernier have substantially alienated the Foreign Service (morale is now very low)* and this was an opportunity for them to serve the Harper government their just desserts.



I know I'm repeating myself, but the highlighted portion is crap; the very  worst sort of partisan, Liberal Party of Canada revisionism.

Yes, the morale in the civil service is low: because Stephen Harper, Paul Martin, Jean Chrétien, Brian Mulroney and, *above all* Pierre Trudeau made it so.

The downgrading of the foreign service began in about 1967 because Pierre Trudeau saw it, correctly, as an _Anglophilic_, closed shop - reserved for a tight coterie of _Oxbridge_ educated small town Protestants. Trudeau thought, incorrectly, that it was anti-Québec; not true, but it was a strict meritocracy and the Québec education system in the ‘30s, ‘40s and ‘50s was unable to produce anything like enough people to give (then) External Affairs a broadly representative (25% Québecois) ‘face’ – and maintain its quality. So, he set about ruining it. Brian Mulroney continued the work – not because he cared overly much about quotas and _Francophone_ ratios but, rather, because, based on the very real examples of e.g. Lester Pearson and Mitchell Sharp, he thought it was a hotbed of partisan Liberals. Harper is wrong to mistrust the civil service, so was Mulroney. It *is* a Liberal hotbed  but it is one which is, broadly, able to be non-partisan despite its general distaste for Conservatives. Trudeau, however, was more wrong because his actions were petty, ill considered and downright malicious.

The foreign service of Canada is, by and large, amateurish – that’s one of the reasons Gen. Hillier made foreign policy for a while. The blame for that rests, mainly, with _Saint Pierre_ – the worst bloody disaster to hit Ottawa in the 20th century. The man was a petty, provincial, pseudo-intellectual poltroon - who set the country on the path to mediocrity because he, himself, was a third rate man with second rate ambitions and a first rate education.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> I think a set-up is a bit of an overstatement.  Did the Foreign Service know what was going on?  Could they have warned Bernier and Harper ahead of time.  I would answer yes to all these questions.  Why didn't they?  *Not because they are full of partisan Liberals*-*but because Harper and Bernier have substantially alienated the Foreign Service (morale is now very low) * and *this was an opportunity for them to serve the Harper government their just desserts. *



I wish you would stop posting like you have supreme first hand knowledge of the inner workings of all the various government departments.

Try using phrases like "In my opinion" or "I think it likely that...." or "From what I've read, it may be possible that...". Oh, and try posting something like a link, if you have any, to back up your assertions.


----------



## GAP (29 May 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I know I'm repeating myself, but the highlighted portion is crap; the very  worst sort of partisan, Liberal Party of Canada revisionism.
> 
> The foreign service of Canada is, by and large, amateurish – that’s one of the reasons Gen. Hillier made foreign policy for a while. The blame for that rests, mainly, with _Saint Pierre_ – the worst bloody disaster to hit Ottawa in the 20th century. The man was a petty, provincial, pseudo-intellectual poltroon - who set the country on the path to mediocrity because he, himself, was a third rate man with second rate ambitions and a first rate education.



One of these days you're going to have to sit down and give us your real views or PET and pals..... ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 May 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> One of these days you're going to have to sit down and give us your real views or PET and pals..... ;D



I know, all his self restraint wears on one.


----------



## Rodahn (29 May 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I wish you would stop posting like you have supreme first hand knowledge of the inner workings of all the various government departments.



After viewing his profile, I would suggest that he probably has a better knowledge of the inner workings of the government than the majority of the members of this forum


----------



## stegner (29 May 2008)

> The foreign service of Canada is, by and large, amateurish – that’s one of the reasons Gen. Hillier made foreign policy for a while. The blame for that rests, mainly, with Saint Pierre – the worst bloody disaster to hit Ottawa in the 20th century. The man was a petty, provincial, pseudo-intellectual poltroon - who set the country on the path to mediocrity because he, himself, was a third rate man with second rate ambitions and a first rate education.



No argument here.  I agree fully with you that it was a sad day when our Oxbridge educated Foreign Service was considered politically correct because they were not Francophone-though many of them spoke flawless French.   PET ruined Canada's civil service.   My argument is that it is precisely because Harper used Gen. Hiller to make foreign policy that has most recently alienated the foreign service.  This is clearly outside of DND's purview.  How would DND feel if Canada's foreign service started taking on the DND's roles.  Moreover, we have many capable foreign servants that are being ignored.  



> I wish you would stop posting like you have supreme first hand knowledge of the inner workings of all the various government departments.
> 
> Try using phrases like "In my opinion" or "I think it likely that...." or "From what I've read, it may be possible that...". Oh, and try posting something like a link, if you have any, to back up your assertions.



Mr Recceguy,

I have at last time I checked six friends in Foreign Affairs.  I am only going by what they tell me.   It's not unusual for people living in Ottawa to have friends in a plethora of government departments and agencies.  The people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide on my credibility or lack thereof.  



> One of these days you're going to have to sit down and give us your real views or PET and pals..... Grin



For the record I am not fond of Trudeau as he was a giant ass.  Not the biggest fan of Chretien, but he was much better than the alternative of the time (i.e Campbell, Charest, Day, Manning) with the exception of Joe Clark, the only native Albertan PM in Canada's history.  Once again,  John Diefenbaker was my favorite PM.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> Mr Recceguy,
> 
> I have at last time I checked six friends in Foreign Affairs.  I am only going by what they tell me.   It's not unusual for people living in Ottawa to have friends in a plethora of government departments and agencies.  The people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide on my credibility or lack thereof.



Your hearsay evidence still amounts to just that.....hearsay and rumour. I also have a plethora of acquaintances in the public service, and as much as I trust and accept what they say, it would be foolish to make judgements and statements on the inner workings based on their opinion only.


_Edit for spelling_


----------



## stegner (30 May 2008)

> You're hearsay evidence still amounts to just that.....hearsay and rumour. I also have a plethora of acquaintances in the public service, and as much as I trust and accept what they say, it would be foolish to make judgements and statements on the inner workings based on their opinion only.



Sounds good.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 May 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This imbroglio points up the perils of _cabinet making_ in Canada (and, to some degree in Australia, Britain, Germany and India, too).
> 
> The cabinet *should* be well stocked with men and women of considerable ability and integrity.
> 
> ...



Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _National Post_ is Don Martin’s take on my _cabinet making in Canada_ thoughts:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=550824


> Harper's Cabinet quandary
> *Too much talent in West, not enough in Ontario or Quebec*
> 
> Don Martin, National Post
> ...



The old, old problem is that _regional_ representation (which is Ottawa’s secret code for Québec’s _fair_ share) *must* always and without fail trump good government and/or the national interest.

So it remains for Prime Minister Harper and, given his stranglehold on most of Western Canada and Liberal strength in Ontario and Atlantic Canada and Québec’s current state of political flux, it means that Québec MPs, no matter how shallow and stagnant the talent pool puddle may be, will be looking for the big offices, big limos and big pay raises that come with a front row seat at the cabinet table.


----------



## stegner (30 May 2008)

This is too funny.   Martin totally ripped off Andrew Coyne's comments on the CBC program At Issue with Peter Mansbridge. Martin along with Gregg, Coyne and Hebert appear almost daily on the show.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 May 2008)

stegner said:
			
		

> This is too funny.   Martin totally ripped off Andrew Coyne's comments on the CBC program At Issue with Peter Mansbridge. Martin along with Gregg, Coyne and Hebert appear almost daily on the show.



Not really; very similar comments were made by many, many observers when the first Harper cabinet was worn in early in 2006. They mirror despairing comments made when Martin and Chrétien and Mulroney and Trudeau cabinets were sworn in, too - in Trudeau's and Chrétien’s cases regarding the need to recruit poorly qualified Westerners, including appointed senators, and overlook some excellent Québec and Atlantic Canadian MPs.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 May 2008)

From what little I have seen in the foreign media about this, is purely a focus on her ample cleverage and the faint possibility that Canadians are exciting enough to have an actual sex scandal.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 May 2008)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Ottawa Citizen_, is another take, this one from Prof. Wesley Wark:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=ac58cfda-b05d-488b-93eb-c2fbbaddddf9


> Wesley Wark . This scandal has legs
> *Despite the current media frenzy, the real story awaits: a thorough investigation is needed, as is an overhaul in the way secrets are handled*
> 
> Wesley Wark, The Ottawa Citizen
> ...



I agree with Prof. Wark re:

•	A need for better, more thorough security screening of ministers – even if that means they cannot ‘see’ everything, for some time; and

•	A need for better information handing procedures.

Better, more thorough security screening must, perforce, apply to spouses, close relatives, friends and associates, too – especially in the case of ministers selected for some posts. *But*: where can, where *must* it end? Can we envision a case where the security services could _*doubt*_ the loyalty or discretion of the elected prime minister – and who would or should give a damn if they do? I reiterate: when the people of this, that or the other riding elect their member of parliament they tell us, all of us, fellow citizens and denizens of the dark corridors of the security service, too, “This is a person we trust.” That may have to be good enough; in many most almost all cases it may be as good as we can get.

Information handing is much, much easier and should be investigated, reported upon and reformed quickly and thoroughly – and I have no doubt, none at all, that a thorough investigation will find a need for urgent reform.

I also agree with Wark that this story has “legs,” but for the reasons ColinP gives: it is salacious. Sex sells soap.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (31 May 2008)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is Rex Murphy's take on this issue.

Deep down, the front bench is shallow


> REX MURPHY  From Saturday's Globe and Mail May 30, 2008 at 7:08 PM EDT
> 
> Scandal is the adrenalin of politics. There is nothing that quite so fires the partisan blood as the spectacle of the other party caught with its pants down. And that, both metaphorically and otherwise, is what we have had this week.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Jun 2008)

Another view, courtesy of the Mop and pail, it did make me chuckle though.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080602.wmacgregor02/BNStory/specialComment/home



> How the Tories got their spunk back
> ROY MacGREGOR
> 
> From Monday's Globe and Mail
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Jun 2008)

And the hits just keep on coming....

Bernier's ex-girlfriend dated a mafioso: report

Article Link - CTV News

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Claims by the Harper government that it is neither aware of nor interested in the romantic entanglements of ministers came under renewed fire Tuesday amid reports of an old Mafia liaison. 

The week-old resignation of foreign affairs minister Maxime Bernier continues to turn up fresh skeletons, with Opposition MPs citing a newspaper report that Bernier's ex-girlfriend once dated an alleged mobster. 

More on article link


----------



## vonGarvin (5 Jun 2008)

To any and all who _think _ that dating *anyone* is a crime, I refer to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:



> Fundamental Freedoms​
> 2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
> 
> a) freedom of conscience and religion;
> ...


That is all.


----------



## scoutfinch (6 Jun 2008)

Actually, there are restrictions on the freedom of association... one of which would include being involved in a criminal enterprise (ie. organized crime).  Bill C-95 (anti-biker legislation) deals with this very point.

I am not suggesting that she was involved in criminal enterprises; however, her dad was busted as the proprieter in a biker grow op and she has been romatically involved with another individual who was busted for illegal real estate transactions.  She is well known to bikers and has ties to Italian mafia.  She seems to have a propensity for men well known for illegal conduct. Has she been an angel during these periods of time?  I suspect _that _ story has yet to come out.

The only thing that comes to mind when I think of Couillard is "if you lay down with dogs, you get fleas".  She ain't no victim.  She made her bed(s) and now she has to lie in them.


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Jun 2008)

I understand that being a member of a criminal organization is prohibited; however, I would argue in the case of Ms. Couillard that she was not.  She was involved with individuals.  Maybe she just goes for "bad boys"? >

But, in all seriousness, it wasn't HER association that was being scrutinized, it was Mr. Bernier's.  HE wasn't involved with illegal activities.  He shared his bed (assuming he did, anyway), with a woman who used to share her bed with guys who may or may not have....

Anyway, the six degrees of Kevin Bacon comes to mind.  We all have skeletons in our closets.  Even though there are such things as C-95 out there, I don't think that there are any that prohibit one person from associating with another (barring any restraining orders, etc).


----------



## scoutfinch (6 Jun 2008)

The freedom of association does not protect you from public scrutiny of those with whom you associate... it only protects you from criminal prosecution.   ;D

You reap what you sow.  She must have enjoyed her time as a biker babe otherwise she wouldn't have kept doing it over and over and over.  Now it is time to pay the piper.

Bernier should have known better _politically_.  He should have demonstrated better _political _ common sense than to get involved with her.  Now he is paying the _political _ price.  That is the way that game is played and he knew it when he went in to it.

I don't think either one of them are victims.


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Jun 2008)

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> The freedom of association does not protect you from public scrutiny of those with whom you associate... it only protects you from criminal prosecution.   ;D
> 
> You reap what you sow.  She must have enjoyed her time as a biker babe otherwise she wouldn't have kept doing it over and over and over.  Now it is time to pay the piper.
> 
> Bernier should have known better _politically_.  He should have demonstrated better _political _ common sense than to get involved with her.  Now he is paying the _political _ price.  That is the way that game is played and he knew it when he went in to it.


I agree that the optics are bad on this one for Bernier.  Having said that, in the House, whenever the NDP, Libs or Bloc got up and slammed Bernier for being associated with Couillard (who I don't think has a criminal record, as far as I can read from the media), I would have quoted the Fundamental Freedoms, and left it at that.  Just hammer it home again and again and again.  After all, the optics would have changed from "Bad Bernier" to "Big Brother NDP/Lib/Bloc", getting into the bedrooms of Canadians (which I also would have brought forward)


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Jun 2008)

And here we go again.....

Article Link

Bernier's ex dined in 2006 with loan shark tied to bikers

A joint CBC-Radio Canada investigation has revealed that in the summer of 2006, nine months before her relationship with Bernier began, Julie Couillard dined at a Laval restaurant with a convicted loan shark named Normand Descoteaux.

More on link

Are they going to go through every person this woman has ever associated with?


----------



## scoutfinch (6 Jun 2008)

Mortarman Rockpainter said:
			
		

> I agree that the optics are bad on this one for Bernier.  Having said that, in the House, whenever the NDP, Libs or Bloc got up and slammed Bernier for being associated with Couillard (who I don't think has a criminal record, as far as I can read from the media), I would have quoted the Fundamental Freedoms, and left it at that.  Just hammer it home again and again and again.  After all, the optics would have changed from "Bad Bernier" to "Big Brother NDP/Lib/Bloc", getting into the bedrooms of Canadians (which I also would have brought forward)



By all accounts, she does not have a criminal record, nor has she been charged with anything (not from lack of trying by the police, I might add given that she has been arrested and has been under surveillance many times).  In my mind, this indicates there was insufficient evidence to gain a conviction against her.  

I think this was just one of several gaffes by Bernier which ultimately cost him his job (comments on Kandahar's governor, committing heavy airlift capacity etc being others).  If I thought for one second that the Liberal leadership was sufficiently competent to think strategically, I would think that they waited until they had the lovely sound bite out of Harper's mouth when he said that it was a non-issue and that he 'didn't intend to take this issue seriously'.  Cue damning evidence.... eat that, Harper, say the Liberals gleefully!

At the end of the day, Bernier was not competent in Foreign Affairs.  He also demonstrated poor judgment with regards to Couillard.  He is paying the price.


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## vonGarvin (6 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And here we go again.....
> 
> Article Link
> 
> ...


The Libs (and the CBC apparently: why in the world are they investigating the dining habits of biker chicks?), supposed champions of individual rights and freedoms, apparently haven't heard of the Charter.  They also seem to have forgotten His Royal Highness (Pierre Trudeau the First) and his quote of words to the effect that the government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, DROP IT!!!!!!

PS: I'm sure, given enough digging, anyone could fine out that that some girls I have dated over the years had longer criminal records than Ms. Couillard.  Big deal.  It was THEIR records, NOT MINE.  Jesus Christ hung out with prostitutes, beggars and thieves, and now there are churches in His name all around the world!  Association with anyone is not a crime, in fact, it's a right GUARANTEED in the charter.  To the CBC: Get over yourselves!


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## Jammer (6 Jun 2008)

I that case let's pore over the torrid off-camera relationship that Wendy Mesley and Peter Mansbridge had for a period of time. I'm sure with that one we could bring the CBC to thier collective knees.


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## scoutfinch (6 Jun 2008)

Apples vs. Oranges.

They aren't elected public officials.

That being said, if anyone really cared about it, there is nothing stopping the media from doing so.. although the mere thought of Peter Mansbridge nekkid creeps me out!

edited to add:  besides, Mesley and Manbridge were married.


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## PMedMoe (11 Jun 2008)

This lady (and I use that term loosely) has certainly been making the government rounds.

Minister's aide fired after Couillard links emerge

Article Link

Special assistant to Fortier dated controversial woman last year: newspaper
Last Updated: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 | 7:57 AM ET CBC News 

Federal Public Works Minister Michael Fortier has had to dismiss a senior member of staff because the man had a romantic relationship with Julie Couillard last year when a company she represented was bidding on a big government contract, according to a report.

The Toronto Star reports Fortier says he only became aware on Tuesday that Couillard and one of his Quebec advisers, Bernard Côté, had been dating last year, before she became the girlfriend of former foreign affairs minister Maxime Bernier.

Côté failed to inform him that he was dating Couillard, the Star quoted Fortier as saying, at the same time as Montreal property developer Groupe Kevlar Inc. was bidding for a multimillion-dollar contract with the Public Works Department.

Couillard is officially listed as an "affiliated agent" of Groupe Kevlar, although the firm said last month that she was not one of its employees.

More on link


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## Rodahn (30 Aug 2008)

And yet more on the continuing saga of Ms. Couillard 

Article link

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080829.wcouillard29/BNStory/National

OTTAWA — The Mounties are investigating a controversial real-estate deal that the Harper government cancelled yesterday, and on which Julie Couillard allegedly lobbied two senior Conservative officials while she was dating them.

Sources said that RCMP are seeking information from federal officials on the project, which is in Quebec City. The Kevlar Group, a real-estate firm associated with Ms. Couillard, submitted two of the four bids that made it to the second phase of the tendering process.

The Mounties have been contacting civil servants and ministerial staff recently, including current and former officials of Public Works and Government Services Canada.

Public Works has been looking in recent years to buy a building to house federal officials in Quebec City. However, the government announced yesterday it will launch a new competition on the project, after the four remaining properties offered were deemed to be non-compliant with the environmental criteria.

Ms. Couillard's actual ties with Kevlar remain unclear, including her official position, if any, on the bid for the building in Quebec City.

Still, Kevlar said in May she is affiliated with the firm as a real estate agent. In addition, former foreign affairs minister Maxime Bernier and former ministerial adviser Bernard Côté have said that Ms. Couillard promoted the project to them.

The RCMP have always refused to state whether they are investigating the politically charged Couillard affair, which dominated parliamentary debates in the spring and led to the resignations of Mr. Bernier and Mr. Côté from their government positions.

This week, RCMP spokesman Corporal Greg Cox, refused to "confirm or deny whether or not we're engaged in an investigation." However, other federal officials said there is no doubt the RCMP are actively involved in the file, and that "contacts have been made" with current and former officials.

The RCMP probe comes at a politically crucial time, with Prime Minister Stephen Harper moving to dissolve Parliament and send the country to the polls. The opposition is accusing him of attempting to shut down the House to sweep ethical questions and scandals under the carpet.

The controversy erupted in early May over the fact that Ms. Couillard had ties to members of the Hells Angels in the 1990s, and whether the RCMP was aware of that when she started dating Mr. Bernier in the spring of 2007.

Mr. Bernier resigned in late May after Ms. Couillard revealed in a television interview that some of his confidential briefing documents had been left at her home in early April of this year. The next twist came in June as Mr. Côté resigned from the office of then-minister of public works Michael Fortier. Mr. Côté acknowledged he should have recused himself from the Quebec City project because he dated Ms. Couillard and discussed the matter with her in the first part of 2007.

It was also revealed at the time that Ms. Couillard had raised the Kevlar Group's bid with Mr. Bernier.

At the time of Mr. Côté's resignation, the opposition raised allegations in the House and the Senate that this was a potential case of influence peddling and an attempted infiltration of the Conservative government.

A spokesman for Mr. Fortier insisted yesterday there was no political interference in the Quebec City file. In addition, a review of the project by a fairness monitor released yesterday found no outside pressures in the management of the project.

Ms. Couillard has refused to appear before a parliamentary committee looking into the controversy. Her lawyer has argued that she could be the subject of an RCMP investigation in relation to her handling of Mr. Bernier's secret documents, and that she does not want to jeopardize her eventual defence. 

Mr. Bernier is also refusing to answer questions, saying he has nothing to add.

A source said Ms. Couillard raised questions in federal circles when she learned last year the government had made a decision that went against Kevlar's first bid. At the time, Kevlar was offering a property close to downtown Quebec City for the project. However, the Harper government expanded the perimeter in which the building could be located, which increased the pool of potential bidders. Kevlar then submitted a bid in the new perimeter.

The opposition has also asked questions in the House on the fact that Ms. Couillard's mother, Diane Bellemare, was appointed by the cabinet in August, 2007, to the Employment Insurance Board of Referees. A source said the RCMP have also sought information on that appointment.

She certainly has made her impression on Parliament hill this year.....


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## Blindspot (30 Aug 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> Julie Couillard allegedly lobbied two senior Conservative officials while she was dating them.



So she's a prostitute?


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## Rodahn (30 Aug 2008)

Blindspot said:
			
		

> So she's a prostitute?



 :rofl: Welllllll, she is definitely something.... I'm just not sure what!


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## Edward Campbell (1 Oct 2008)

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is, probably - and, perhaps, counter-intuitively, good news for the Conservatives:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081001.wcouillard01/BNStory/politics/home


> Couillard told to trash NATO briefings, book reveals
> 
> DANIEL LEBLANC
> 
> ...




According to the Laurier Institute for Public Opinion and Policy the _Beauce_ riding, where Bernier is running, is a fairly safe Tory seat. I expect that the debate moderators and the other party leaders will be unable to resist filling some time with this. Harper’s defences should be easy and _pro forma_ and, it appears to me likely to resonate with Québec voters who were sympathetic towards both Bernier and Harper when the former’s private life was made an issue.

In fact, anything that shifts the _scandal_ spotlight away from Harper, personally, is a good thing. He is running a one man campaign and *his image* is all important.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Oct 2008)

Not everyone is smart : Hopefully, most will see her for the opportunist she is. Given her past, she'll do, and say, anything for a buck. It would be good to see her slapped with a massive lawsuit. It would also be interesting to see what the political ties, of the shadow writer and publishing house are, and who exactly commissioned the book. I may have my tinfoil hat on too tight, but this, and the timing, smacks of an orchestrated plan by desperate people.

Although we've all seen politicos act just as stupid as is alleged for Bernier, when they start thinking with that other head. It will be interesting to see how Harper's War Cabinet deals with this one.


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## GAP (1 Oct 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not everyone is smart : Hopefully, most will see her for the opportunist she is. Given her past, she'll do, and say, anything for a buck. It would be good to see her slapped with a massive lawsuit. It would also be interesting to see what the political ties, of the shadow writer and publishing house are, and who exactly commissioned the book. I may have my tinfoil hat on too tight, but this, and the timing, smacks of an orchestrated plan by desperate people.
> 
> Although we've all seen politicos act just as stupid as is alleged for Bernier, when they start thinking with that other head. It will be interesting to see how Harper's War Cabinet deals with this one.



It will be a non-issue for Harper....it was Bernier and his little head swelled with his ego that precipitated this....he comes across as such even in the news clips...That's not to say the opposition won't try... :


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## geo (1 Oct 2008)

Old news and Yawn!.....


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## Sheerin (1 Oct 2008)

She has zero credibility, but by the same token, I wouldn't be surprised if she were telling the truth here.  But yeah, she has little credibility.


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## observor 69 (2 Oct 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not everyone is smart : Hopefully, most will see her for the opportunist she is. Given her past, she'll do, and say, anything for a buck. It would be good to see her slapped with a massive lawsuit. It would also be interesting to see what the political ties, of the shadow writer and publishing house are, and who exactly commissioned the book. I may have my tinfoil hat on too tight, but this, and the timing, smacks of an orchestrated plan by desperate people.



Oh you mean like the last election when the RCMP released news of an investigation in the middle of the election campaign.


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## Retired AF Guy (3 Oct 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ...... It would also be interesting to see what the political ties, of the shadow writer and publishing house are, and who exactly commissioned the book. I may have my tinfoil hat on too tight, but this, and the timing, smacks of an orchestrated plan by desperate people.



The books publisher is  McClelland & Stewart . Nothing that I could find would indicate a left-wing/liberal bias. However, the chairman Avie J. Bennett , along with Ed Broadbent (ex-NDP leader before Jacko came along) heads up the  Canadian Democracy and Corporate Accountability Commission. The CDCAC's mandate is to "study how to encourage greater corporate social responsibility on the part of Canadian corporations" sounds kind of left-wing to me. 

As for the publishing date I seem to remember that it was supposed to be released later this month, but the date was pushed forward to appear before the election. I would suspect that the reason was more monetary then political.


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## observor 69 (4 Oct 2008)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> As for the publishing date I seem to remember that it was supposed to be released later this month, but the date was pushed forward to appear before the election. I would suspect that the reason was more monetary then political.





Ya think !  ;D


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## geo (4 Oct 2008)

Flipped thru the pictures while at the bookstore

Other than a deep cleavage, not much going for her


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Other than a deep cleavage, not much going for her




So, do _you_ remember what colour her eyes are? No peeking back at the pics ...

 >


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## GAP (4 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> So, do _you_ remember what colour her eyes are? No peeking back at the pics ...
> 
> >



she has eyes too?


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> she has eyes too?



Exactly as I suspected.  >

Men ...  8)


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## geo (4 Oct 2008)

heh..... pictures were in black & white


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## GAP (4 Oct 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> heh..... pictures were in black & white



Sooooo.....in the dark everything is black and white too........ooops....sorry, that's braille.... ;D


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## X Royal (4 Oct 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> she has eyes too?





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exactly as I suspected.  >
> Men ...  8)


Vern some may question the same of you. I don't recall your avatars showing your eyes.


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2008)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Vern some may question the same of you. I don't recall your avatars showing your eyes.



Alas, I have no cleavage; no worries.  ;D


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## midget-boyd91 (4 Oct 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Exactly as I suspected.  >
> 
> Men ...  8)



Alrighy there. Although 95% of my time at work is either in the kitchen part of Timmies, or in the freezer.. I still hear many of the conversations that go on between the women out front. And as I recall, due to what was heard in these conversations, I previously mentioned somewheres that the next time I hear (or read) a female stereotyping a male as being a "pig" I would promptly insert my good foot, followed by my bad foot (prior to the removal of my good foot) into said person's rear end.  
So.. Bend over, here it comes. 
 ;D

Midget


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2008)

uncle-midget-boyd said:
			
		

> Alrighy there. Although 95% of my time at work is either in the kitchen part of Timmies, or in the freezer.. I still hear many of the conversations that go on between the women out front. And as I recall, due to what was heard in these conversations, I previously mentioned somewheres that the next time I hear (or read) a female stereotyping a male as being a "pig" I would promptly insert my good foot, followed by my bad foot (prior to the removal of my good foot) into said person's rear end.
> So.. Bend over, here it comes.
> ;D
> 
> Midget



1) You should hear us in the locker room or in our hoochies if you think Timmies conversation is bad; and

2) You obviously missed my post from this week about "boys being pigs" (or you're very slow and this 40 year old is STILL quicker than you).

I'm switching my pic - just to prove I do have eyes.  8)


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## GAP (4 Oct 2008)

Nice pic


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Nice pic



Thanks GAP.  

I do have one somewhere of both chaps AND eyes ... just need to find it in the multitudes of pics on this damn computer.


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## geo (5 Oct 2008)

Men love women
Women love men.... (most of the time anyway)

Men are pigs

ergo sum.... women love pigs >


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## PMedMoe (23 May 2009)

I guess Ms. Couillard wasn't happy with her 15 minutes of fame.  :

*Couillard sues former employer for $250,000*
Article Link

Julie Couillard is suing her former employer for $250,000 as part of the fallout from her public relationship with former foreign affairs minister Maxime Bernier last year, court records show.

Ms. Couillard alleges in a defamation suit that she was humiliated when officials with Kevlar Group Inc. denied any commercial link with her last year. She said she was under contract with Kevlar at the time, and had previously received six payments totalling $45,000 from the real-estate firm.

“The plaintiff's professional reputation was sullied by the defendant's statements. She presented herself to people in the real estate field as a representative of Kevlar, and her employer's denials cast doubts over her status,” says a document filed in court by Ms. Couillard's lawyer, Julius Grey.

“The plaintiff was humiliated, insulted and worried,” it says.

Kevlar officials could not be reached for comment.

More on link


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