# National Truck Driver Shortage



## SupersonicMax (23 Jun 2021)

So, apparently there is a national shortage of truck drivers.  Some people are getting their load day cancelled!  Anybody working within CMP/DCBA can offer up options for people?  Often, the closing day is 2 days after the load day (after clean)!


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## MJP (23 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> So, apparently there is a national shortage of truck drivers.  Some people are getting their load day cancelled!  Anybody working within CMP can offer up options for people?  Often, the closing day is 2 days after the load day (after clean)!
> 
> View attachment 65554


From my sources at a Local Base Traffic it is less drivers as an issue but more the packing/loading crews they just don't have (but I wouldn't be surprised at the driver bit). Who knew paying your people shitty pay for hard work results in them not wanting to come back to work when there are other options.

The BGRS part of the rant is a red herring as they have nothing to do with moving F&E, that is solely with Base Traffic and managed within the military. That said, I can see more IL&M happening at both ends if the worker shortage carries on which is kinda a BGRS thing in a round about way. But before BGRS can do anything if it falls outside of the CAFRD it becomes a DCBA adjudication thing as BGRS has no ability to give any benefits outside of the CAFRD.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Jun 2021)

MJP said:


> From my sources at a Local Base Traffic it is less drivers as an issue but more the packing/loading crews they just don't have (but I wouldn't be surprised at the driver bit). Who knew paying your people shitty pay for hard work results in them not wanting to come back to work when there are other options.
> 
> The BGRS part of the rant is a red herring as they have nothing to do with moving F&E, that is solely with Base Traffic and managed within the military. That said, I can see more IL&M happening at both ends if the worker shortage carries on which is kinda a BGRS thing in a round about way. But before BGRS can do anything if it falls outside of the CAFRD it becomes a DCBA adjudication thing as BGRS has no ability to give any benefits outside of the CAFRD.


Extra IL&M is great but when closing date comes, the house needs to be empty!  Not sure how I would deal with that!


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## MJP (23 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Extra IL&M is great but when closing date comes, the house needs to be empty!  Not sure how I would deal with that!


It is a crappy situation and empathize with anyone stuck in it. It can be pretty messy for folks in what can be a stressful time if there is no flexibility in the incoming homeowners part.  

I imagine the national team that manages the contract is looking at how to alleviate the issue (which doesn't help the right now)


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## kev994 (24 Jun 2021)

MJP said:


> It is a crappy situation and empathize with anyone stuck in it. It can be pretty messy for folks in what can be a stressful time if there is no flexibility in the incoming homeowners part.
> 
> I imagine the national team that manages the contract is looking at how to alleviate the issue (which doesn't help the right now)


Even if there is some flexibility it’s not free and I’m not aware of any policy to cover this.


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## MJP (24 Jun 2021)

kev994 said:


> Even if there is some flexibility it’s not free and I’m not aware of any policy to cover this.


It is policy blackhole that will need DCBA adjudication to cover the gap.


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## Quirky (24 Jun 2021)

The implications of this will be enormous. It's not a huge deal when your stuff is in a PMQ, CFHA likely has some flexibility for a later vacate date. I wouldn't want to break any contracts on house possessions, it's going to look silly when the truck for the new owner arrives and your house is still full of your boxes. Home ownership while in the CAF just gets less and less appealing.


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## captloadie (25 Jun 2021)

I think the key here is that it was an IPR move out of a PMQ. As has been previously stated, many of the moving companies end up short staffed this time of year, and demand is high. While I would only be guessing here, if the company contacted F&E and said they had 5 DND moves to do that day, but only 4 crews of people, what's the priority, F&E likely picked to delay the move they perceived to have the least impact.

Also, were there any other posts in that thread that indicated it was an issue being experienced in multiple locations across the CAF, or a single incident out of thousands of moves?


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## SupersonicMax (25 Jun 2021)

captloadie said:


> I think the key here is that it was an IPR move out of a PMQ. As has been previously stated, many of the moving companies end up short staffed this time of year, and demand is high. While I would only be guessing here, if the company contacted F&E and said they had 5 DND moves to do that day, but only 4 crews of people, what's the priority, F&E likely picked to delay the move they perceived to have the least impact.
> 
> Also, were there any other posts in that thread that indicated it was an issue being experienced in multiple locations across the CAF, or a single incident out of thousands of moves?


Yes, there is one or two posts every day.  There is also a notice on the BGRS website.


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## MJP (25 Jun 2021)

captloadie said:


> Also, were there any other posts in that thread that indicated it was an issue being experienced in multiple locations across the CAF, or a single incident out of thousands of moves?


It seems to be a cross-Canada issue this APS


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## materialpigeonfibre (25 Jun 2021)

I was less than pleased with the lack of response from BGRS. I had to move because of a posting in July 2020 and they didn't answer their phones or emails.

It's a tough situation. Hopefully it works out for them.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Jun 2021)

I received the attached file from my F&E coordinator today.


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## kev994 (25 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I received the attached file from my F&E coordinator today.


Who is going to pay for all the broken stuff if I have to hire a local company to move my stuff out of my sold house!? Both companies are going to blame the other company! If I can find a mover then United should be able to sub-contract.


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## kev994 (25 Jun 2021)

The more I think of this the more enraging it is. These aren’t even solutions, just a bunch of ideas to figure it out yourself but whatever you do, make sure the $h!! Show we’ve created doesn’t cost us anything, we don’t have a policy for that.


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## Quirky (25 Jun 2021)

kev994 said:


> The more I think of this the more enraging it is. These aren’t even solutions, just a bunch of ideas to figure it out yourself but whatever you do, make sure the $h!! Show we’ve created doesn’t cost us anything, we don’t have a policy for that.



But don’t worry, just remain flexible and positive! It’s all good according to the letter. Postings and moves with property obligations are stressful even when everything goes smooth and lines up. Having your stuff packed and no one showing up a day or two before possession date would be a nightmare.


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## kev994 (25 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> But don’t worry, just remain flexible and positive! It’s all good according to the letter. Postings and moves with property obligations are stressful even when everything goes smooth and lines up. Having your stuff packed and no one showing up a day or two before possession date would be a nightmare.


Yeah, don’t try to trade money for possession date, there’s no policy for that, instead, get some unicorns to fart your stuff into your car so you can move it yourself, but don’t rent a trailer, that’s not a reimbursable expense.


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## Pelorus (26 Jun 2021)

Rant incoming, and more geared towards the overall process vice this specific issue since the movers are handled by base transport.

I moved twice in the first part of my career under the old BGRS system, where you met in person with an agent located on base at both ends of the move to handle your claims, etc. They also booked flights and other things like that. You had to fact check them on your own to make sure you weren't getting shortchanged by their poor interpretation of admittedly a fairly convoluted relocation directive, but at least you could justify why the CAF was paying for the service.

I have moved twice now under the new system, and it is truly awful. I won't even be so kind as to call BGRS under the new service model useless, because I think that implies that there's simply no value added. In reality, their role in "facilitating" a move is worse than useless as they are an active hindrance to a successful move.

Twice now I have asked for clarification of an ambiguous part of the relocation directive (although a fairly commonplace situation I'd imagine) via email, and then followed it up with a phone call because the email was not being replied to in a timely manner. And in both cases I eventually received directly conflicting information between the phone rep and the email rep.

I have had multiple claims as part of a move partially or fully rejected because some braindead analyst at BGRS corporate (who I can't speak with to explain the situation) has decided that my expense was not covered, or the receipt didn't meet some arbitrary standard of evidence. In many of these cases it's because the situation slightly deviates from the textbook example they had in mind, so all of the relevant information can't neatly fit into the paint-by-numbers section of their website for a specific type of claim (and they apparently don't read the freeform comments attached to the bottom of the claim which lays it out).

By this point I am a fairly experienced member of the CAF who has attended this rodeo a few times, who has held a number of positions which require me to sift through DND/CAF directives or other GC legal-ese, and I still run into frustrating roadblocks and confusing situations every move. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for our junior pers (Officer or NCM) trying to make sense of this garbage, especially if they have a complex move involving dependents, pets, multiple vehicles, etc.

I guess ultimately my question about this whole shitshow comes down to: what advantage do we as an organization gain by having this corporate parasite leech funds from the GC off of every move, just to add a bunch of confusion and stress to the already stressful process of a geographic relocation?

Why can't I take my posting message to my nearest BOR, have a clerk punch in some basic criteria (e.g., distance, sale/rental intentions, # of dependents, etc.) and have the computer return a lump sum estimate of the cost of that move based off of current market rates? Get that amount in advance with the explicit expectation that the member be ready to RFD at their new unit on the date agreed upon by the gaining/losing unit, no receipts required so long as they remain under their allotment? If the member is frugal and able to pocket a few thousand over the whole thing, surely that still saves the GC money since they don't have to pay BGRS?

I have spoken to a number of peers and subordinates by now who will freely admit that they intend to push back the next time their CM tries to get them to do a geographic move, where the headache of dealing with BGRS is an equal or greater consideration affecting that intent than the disruption to their families.


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## kev994 (26 Jun 2021)

boot12 said:


> Rant incoming, and more geared towards the overall process vice this specific issue since the movers are handled by base transport.
> 
> I moved twice in the first part of my career under the old BGRS system, where you met in person with an agent located on base at both ends of the move to handle your claims, etc. They also booked flights and other things like that. You had to fact check them on your own to make sure you weren't getting shortchanged by their poor interpretation of admittedly a fairly convoluted relocation directive, but at least you could justify why the CAF was paying for the service.
> 
> ...


I’ve heard 2 counter-arguments to the idea of the clerk’s doing the moves. 1. Back when this was done every OR interpreted things differently so people were upset that Bloggins got different treatment for the same expense (also apparently the argument for the centralized system vice the reps at the base). 2. We’re short staffed on clerks or whatever they’re called these days, we just don’t have the capacity to take on this task.

I’m still baffled that anyone thinks that if an entire section whose job is to book moving trucks can’t find a company to move HG&E that Cpl Wrench-Turner can pick up the phone and find a company on a day’s notice for the same price and not complete screw him/her self.


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## FJAG (26 Jun 2021)

I've had DND move me for thousands of dollars. I've moved myself when I hired Two Men and a Truck to move me. I've had Two Men Without a Truck (or a few buddies) load me at one end and unload me at the other while I drove the Penske truck myself (rented it in the US - much cheaper than U-Haul)

Doing it myself was less stressful then wondering where the semi with six loads on it is on any given day and sure costs a lot less. It might be easier to simply give our folks a few extra days to move and just give them a lump sum payment based on distance and size of family and let them do whatever they want and just pocket the excess. Amazing how smoothly things work for a young pup when he can make a small profit from it.

🍻


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## Pelorus (26 Jun 2021)

kev994 said:


> I’ve heard 2 counter-arguments to the idea of the clerk’s doing the moves. 1. Back when this was done every OR interpreted things differently so people were upset that Bloggins got different treatment for the same expense (also apparently the argument for the centralized system vice the reps at the base). 2. We’re short staffed on clerks or whatever they’re called these days, we just don’t have the capacity to take on this task.



I've heard the same, but as far as I know both were in the context of BOR clerks essentially filling the role of the full-service BGRS reps under the old system. In that scenario, I can definitely see both points being issues.

But a system wherein a BOR clerk has to simply enter in some basic move data into a program which will automatically spit out a number based off of cost estimates pre-calculated and regularly updated by DCBA or whomever, and then approve the transfer of funds of that magic number into the member's bank account shouldn't be too taxing. The rest would be on the member, basically what FJAG alluded to.

If that added workload would be too much for the uniformed clerks, surely we could hire a couple civvy clerks per base as AS-[X] federal public servants. Again, I'm quite confident it would shake out to less money in the end. From what I saw the NCR is full of civvy clerks augmenting the uniformed pers.


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## kev994 (26 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> I've had DND move me for thousands of dollars. I've moved myself when I hired Two Men and a Truck to move me. I've had Two Men Without a Truck (or a few buddies) load me at one end and unload me at the other while I drove the Penske truck myself (rented it in the US - much cheaper than U-Haul)
> 
> Doing it myself was less stressful then wondering where the semi with six loads on it is on any given day and sure costs a lot less. It might be easier to simply give our folks a few extra days to move and just give them a lump sum payment based on distance and size of family and let them do whatever they want and just pocket the excess. Amazing how smoothly things work for a young pup when he can make a small profit from it.
> 
> 🍻


The Americans have something like this; you get 3 options: 1. Full move- just like us 2. “Full Diddy” (I don’t think this is the real name but that’s what they call it)- They give you cash, you move yourself. 3. Partial Diddy- you rent (not own) a trailer, weigh it empty, put some of your stuff in it and weigh it again, they pay by weight and the movers take the rest. It’s also really common for them to take cash in lieu of HHT and the days they would have taken for HHT become part of their TNL or unpack or whatever they want to do with those days, most families use it to explore America on their way.


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## kev994 (26 Jun 2021)

Moving Scams on the Rise
I’ll bet someone gets caught up in this and the CAF’s response will be something to the effect of ‘we can’t help you, this is your contract, but we can put you in line to get some mental health services in 4-6 weeks.’


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## hattrick72 (27 Jun 2021)

kev994 said:


> The Americans have something like this; you get 3 options: 1. Full move- just like us 2. “Full Diddy” (I don’t think this is the real name but that’s what they call it)- They give you cash, you move yourself. 3. Partial Diddy- you rent (not own) a trailer, weigh it empty, put some of your stuff in it and weigh it again, they pay by weight and the movers take the rest. It’s also really common for them to take cash in lieu of HHT and the days they would have taken for HHT become part of their TNL or unpack or whatever they want to do with those days, most families use it to explore America on their way.


I was going to say exactly this.


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## MJP (27 Jun 2021)

kev994 said:


> The Americans have something like this; you get 3 options: 1. Full move- just like us 2. “Full Diddy” (I don’t think this is the real name but that’s what they call it)- They give you cash, you move yourself. 3. Partial Diddy- you rent (not own) a trailer, weigh it empty, put some of your stuff in it and weigh it again, they pay by weight and the movers take the rest. It’s also really common for them to take cash in lieu of HHT and the days they would have taken for HHT become part of their TNL or unpack or whatever they want to do with those days, most families use it to explore America on their way.


I am dubious any approach other than full meal deal would work given the amount of hand holding our members  need. I love my own options but I can also adult for myself


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## kratz (27 Jun 2021)

> But a system wherein a BOR clerk has to simply enter in some basic move data into a program which will automatically spit out a number based off of cost estimates pre-calculated and regularly updated by DCBA or whomever, and then approve the transfer of funds of that magic number into the member's bank account shouldn't be too taxing. The rest would be on the member, basically what FJAG alluded to.



If such a centralised computer system is so simple, why not add it to an end-user system like Claims-X and just have members input their info from the posting message and new location.  No need for clerks at all.


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## Ostrozac (27 Jun 2021)

MJP said:


> I am dubious any approach other than full meal deal would work given the amount of hand holding our members  need. I love my own options but I can also adult for myself


Well, it might beat the current model, where the department subcontracts out a move to companies that are seemingly incapable of actually moving furniture, and pays dearly for the privilege. There’s an average cost to the department of something like $30k a move, and the status quo doesn’t seem to be working. I submit that if we gave members a duffel bag of $30k in cash each, a posting message and a report date, and told them to figure it out, they would.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Jun 2021)

The whole NA supply chain is under stress, and has been for years, with demand continually outstripping supply:


The longer-term trend for truck driving labor in Canada has some parallels to the United States. According to Trucking HR Canada, by 2023, Canada is expected to be short 25,000 drivers. This vacancy rate is 25% higher than historical benchmarks. Like the United States, Canada faces an aging trucking workforce, low percentages of women and younger truck drivers compared to other industries, as well as a very high driver turnover rate.






						Freight Market & Rate Trends | North America | C.H. Robinson
					

Get the latest North American freight trends, spot market freight rates, supply and demand, and other shipping industry factors that can impact your supply chain.




					www.chrobinson.com


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## Infanteer (27 Jun 2021)

To be honest, I'm not concerned about that.  I believe that within the next generation (so, say 15-20 years) long-haul trucking will be automated.


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## mariomike (27 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> I believe that within the next generation (so, say 15-20 years) long-haul trucking will be automated.


With automatic transmissions in the newer trucks, no more double-clutching or splitting gears.

Might make it easier to train new drivers, while waiting for the next generation of trucks.


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## Quirky (27 Jun 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> I submit that if we gave members a duffel bag of $30k in cash each, a posting message and a report date, and told them to figure it out, they would.



That would mean they would actually have to read the relocation directive and understand what it means. Moves for the majority of CF members are relatively simple if you know your entitlements and what you can claim. When the truck doesn't show up on load day that's when someone else needs to step in and solve the issue. 

If I was a qualified truck driver a moving company would be my last option for employment. Who wants the extra physical stress from moving heavy boxes before needing to drive across the country. My first stop would be a shipping courier that just runs your cheap chinese crap from Amazon on dedicated routes and schedules.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Jun 2021)

No real need to read it.  Just give the members the money for how much their move would cost and let them move as they wish.  Don’t want to conduct an HHT?  You still get the money and you still have to find accommodation.  Want to sell all your furniture?  You still get the money for moving your H&E, but you’ll have to buy stuff at destination. Basically, you put the onus on the member to get themselves from A to B.


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2021)

Holds up until the first time a PO1 in Halifax complains to the media that the military has abandoned him.

That he took his duffel bag with 30k next door to the dockyard and bet it all on red won't be part of the story he tells.


More seriously, the biggest single cost in most moves is real estate fees; even negotiated down to 4%, that's $20k on a $500k house.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Jun 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Holds up until the first time a PO1 in Halifax complains to the media that the military has abandoned him.
> 
> That he took his duffel bag with 30k next door to the dockyard and bet it all on red won't be part of the story he tells.
> 
> ...


The US Military seems to be able to deal with it without much issues.  Not sure why there is a perception that our members are a bunch of dumb folks that need hand holding.  Plus, there is always the option to get a full move.


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## mariomike (27 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> If I was a qualified truck driver a moving company would be my last option for employment. Who wants the extra physical stress from moving heavy boxes before needing to drive across the country. My first stop would be a shipping courier that just runs your cheap chinese crap from Amazon on dedicated routes and schedules.


Hand-bombing in and out of people's homes? No thanks! Rather stick to bumping docks.


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2021)

Maintaining the full system while permitting opt out from the same system and requiring people to go through a subset in order to opt out would cause confusion at best.

And the additional tax challenges members would face from a fully taxable payment that they would offset through claiming moving expenses... I am not sanguine it would be a smooth roll out.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Jun 2021)

The US has a hybrid system with 3 options. Are we somehow less capable than the US military in moving around the country?


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> The US Military seems to be able to deal with it without much issues.  Not sure why there is a perception that our members are a bunch of dumb folks that need hand holding.  Plus, there is always the option to get a full move.



There is however some significant reimbursement (and taxation) differences between the Canadian and American military.  As has been mentioned, one of the biggest costs in a move claim is real estate fees.  The US military don't have that problem; they don't (or didn't 30 years ago when I was down there) reimburse real estate fees or other closing costs for most military PCS moves (though they do for civilian employees of the DOD).  It had to do with the fact that military members receive a non-taxable allowance for housing.  Also, the IRS treats such fees differently than the CRA for moving expenses - tied in with tax deductibility of mortgage interest, property taxes, etc and capital gains exemptions for primary residences.

As for the limited availability of drivers and movers noted in Canada, there is a similar challenge in the USA.





						Moving Entitlements | Move.mil
					






					move.mil
				





> *A message to DOD Personnel and their Families:*
> 
> Like many sectors, labor challenges in the moving and storage industry are driving tighter-than-normal capacity in the Defense Personal Property Program.  These challenges are compounded by competition with non-DOD clients (like corporate and residential customers) vying for the same services.   In many locations, DOD personnel must wait upwards of four to six weeks for available moving crews.  Demand is similarly high for rental trucks and storage containers used by customers interested in a Personally Procured Move.  Senior leaders across the DOD’s Personnel and Logistics communities are aware of the issues and are exploring options to solve relocation-related problems for military families.


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## lenaitch (27 Jun 2021)

A civilian tale so I don't know how much it relates to the military world, but on my first transfer from a tiny southern Ontario town to N/W Ont., I was single and didn't own a lot.  I had a hard time getting even one moving company to give an estimate (we needed 3) for such a small job.  I proposed that I rent a U-Haul trailer, move myself and they pay the rental costs (they would be paying mileage, accom. etc. for me anyway).  I was turned down on the basis that, since it was duty-related, they would be liable if I injured myself in the loading, etc.  In hindsight, I should have just had a yard sale and started over.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> To be honest, I'm not concerned about that.  I believe that within the next generation (so, say 15-20 years) long-haul trucking will be automated.


Or the railways will own everything ground delivered and we‘ll all be screwed


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## kev994 (27 Jun 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> There is however some significant reimbursement (and taxation) differences between the Canadian and American military.  As has been mentioned, one of the biggest costs in a move claim is real estate fees.  The US military don't have that problem; they don't (or didn't 30 years ago when I was down there) reimburse real estate fees or other closing costs for most military PCS moves (though they do for civilian employees of the DOD).  It had to do with the fact that military members receive a non-taxable allowance for housing.  Also, the IRS treats such fees differently than the CRA for moving expenses - tied in with tax deductibility of mortgage interest, property taxes, etc and capital gains exemptions for primary residences.
> 
> As for the limited availability of drivers and movers noted in Canada, there is a similar challenge in the USA.
> 
> ...


DoD still doesn’t reimburse real estate fees as of 2018, their system is set up for everyone to rent. A lot of people who do buy just keep the house and rent it out when they PCS.


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## McG (27 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> The US has a hybrid system with 3 options. Are we somehow less capable than the US military in moving around the country?


Do they have one system for all services, or does each service do its own thing? Last time I looked, there were few (if any) shared systems for personnel management & administration … but that was a few years ago.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Jun 2021)

I am not sure if it is administered by the same people but the rules are the same for all services.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jun 2021)

McG said:


> Do they have one system for all services, or does each service do its own thing? Last time I looked, there were few (if any) shared systems for personnel management & administration … but that was a few years ago.











						DPS & Defense Personal Property Program • Military OneSource
					

The Defense Personal Property Program provides military PCS moving resources, customer service and tools, like Defense Personal Property System (DPS).




					move.mil
				





> Official DOD Customer Moving Portal
> 
> Plan Your Move . . .
> Schedule Your Move . . .
> ...


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## SupersonicMax (1 Jul 2021)

So, someone I know had the no-show happen to him.  House closed and his stuff is still in the house. Family moving in (civilian) is incurring losses (can’t unload their truck, have to live in hotels, can’t cook meals, etc).  No company available to hire for the move and a local move to storage was quoted at 10K (which was denied by DCBA). He was told to not expect any news until Monday due to the long weekend (wtf?!).  Why can’t bases use their trucks, drivers and workforce to move stuff from home to local storage!?


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> So, someone I know had the no-show happen to him.  House closed and his stuff is still in the house. Family moving in (civilian) is incurring losses (can’t unload their truck, have to live in hotels, can’t cook meals, etc).  No company available to hire for the move and a local move to storage was quoted at 10K (which was denied by DCBA). He was told to not expect any news until Monday due to the long weekend (wtf?!).  Why can’t bases use their trucks, drivers and workforce to move stuff from home to local storage!?


Yeah, this is totally DNDs problem, regardless of what they write in a Q and A document. If the grievance FA doesn’t agree the federal court will, but that will take a long time. Why is everyone quitting? It can’t have anything to do with the system’s incompetence? I can see the buyer’s costs hitting 10k fairly quickly.


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## hattrick72 (1 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> So, someone I know had the no-show happen to him.  House closed and his stuff is still in the house. Family moving in (civilian) is incurring losses (can’t unload their truck, have to live in hotels, can’t cook meals, etc).  No company available to hire for the move and a local move to storage was quoted at 10K (which was denied by DCBA). He was told to not expect any news until Monday due to the long weekend (wtf?!).  Why can’t bases use their trucks, drivers and workforce to move stuff from home to local storage!?


Why wouldn't that persons unit/section step in and help pack load and get the stuff into storage to limit the losses?


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

hattrick72 said:


> Why wouldn't that persons unit/section step in and help pack load and get the stuff into storage to limit the losses?


Who is going to take the liability for all the broken stuff?


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## hattrick72 (1 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> Who is going to take the liability for all the broken stuff?


DND wouldn't take the liability if the MSE's loaded it either.
I would like to think their unit would have enough respect to load everything professionally.


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## hattrick72 (1 Jul 2021)

hattrick72 said:


> DND wouldn't take the liability if the MSE's loaded it either.
> I would like to think their unit would have enough respect to load everything professionally.


Furthermore, DND is not going to pay the buyers damages, so my focus would be in limiting that aspect.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

hattrick72 said:


> Furthermore, DND is not going to pay the buyers damages, so my focus would be in limiting that aspect.


They’re going to have to. There may not be a policy to cover it, but DND broke the contract that is the relocation policy when their subcontractor didn’t show up. DND needs to pay for this, it’s just a question of how long it takes.


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## Blackadder1916 (1 Jul 2021)

Expenses incurred by the buyer would likely be dealt with through both parties' real estate lawyers.  Since all the conditions of sale were not met by the seller, namely he has not vacated the property then the buyer could withdraw from the deal (unlikely?) or demand a rebate on the purchase price.  While not as extreme as the situation described here, I have resorted to demanding, through my real estate lawyer, compensation from the seller when all the conditions of a house sale were not met when time came for me to take possession.  Included in that was an amount for temporary accommodation until the corrections could be made.  One of the reasons the lawyers hold the funds in trust (escrow) until all conditions are met.  While my original demands were not met (didn't think they would be so I deliberately inflated my ask), I did receive a few thousand - it cost a few hundred for me to make the corrections myself.

Whether such additional expenses would be reimbursed by DND under CBI 208.96 Acquisition and Disposal of Residential Accommodation may be a stretch as it could be argued that any moneys provided to the buyer for his additional expenses are a rebate (reduction) of the sale price and therefore simply an arrangement between the seller and buyer to adjust the final home price.  It would not surprise me if the powers that be would adopt such a position.


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## SupersonicMax (1 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> Who is going to take the liability for all the broken stuff?


Wait for the liability bill to DND/CAF when people sue for the expenses incurred.  It’ll be much more than a dresser and a TV.  If I was a Base Comd, I would gladly take that risk.


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## dapaterson (1 Jul 2021)

The CBI referenced above would not apply for a move under the CAF Relocation Directive.

I suspect a number of offices within the CAF will be working extra hours this APS to resolve these issues.

EDIT: A quick perusal of policies suggests that the local JAG should be informed IAW DAOD 7004-1, Claims and Ex gratia Procedures.


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## ballz (1 Jul 2021)

If I've got to choose between the risk of staying in my house past closing date and the CAF not paying me what I lose (because I'm obviously going to owe damages to the buyer), or the risk of a few items getting broken and DND not honouring a claim, I'm taking the latter option.

That said, it's a shit sandwich for anybody to be put in, and DCBA will no doubt come up with some absolutely asinine "interpretations" leaving the member holding the bag. Perhaps we should hire some proper HR professionals for DCBA instead of retired clerks and other washouts.

Yes there's a grievance process that ultimately can end up in Federal court, but that option is rarely pursued. First of all, it's expensive, secondly, it'll take years to get there. And the CAF knows it. I recently helped someone with a grievance related to COVID leave recall/cancellation which is affecting probably 1000s of people, for which DGCB refused to look at it, because they'd rather kick the can further and further down the road that do what is in everyone's best interests, including the CAF, and address the issue now.


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## hattrick72 (1 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> They’re going to have to. There may not be a policy to cover it, but DND broke the contract that is the relocation policy when their subcontractor didn’t show up. DND needs to pay for this, it’s just a question of how long it takes.


It is also a question of how deep are the members pockets. 

I find it embarrassing that a civilian is probably sitting there wondering why this person isn't getting off their butt and fixing the situation on their own rather than waiting until COB Monday for a possible answer. They probably have a closing condition to meet on their other home, or at the very least a lease to honour. 

I agree with you that this is a DND issue and is wildly unfair for the member. I'm also a realist and understand that nobody is going to care that this member may lose out on $10-$20k on the sale of their home. 

The whole situation sucks big time


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## Halifax Tar (6 Jul 2021)

I have to say I expected this to be a thread about a shortage of truck drivers.  

Having read it, I feel awful for anyone dealing with this. 

I also like the proposed lump sum do it yourself model of cost moves.  Our members are more than capable of adulting.  

I have always thought if the CAF is ordering me to move from X to Y they should be responsible for every facet of that move including the financial facet.  If our organization is incapable of doing that, give a equations worth lump sum to the members and let them sort it out.  Like bra claims and combat boots individuals may just be better at it.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jul 2021)

A CDS task order is coming out shortly to task Base Comd to use their pers to pack, load and move F&E to storage for posted members that can’t meet their legal obligations due to contractors refusing/unable to honour their part of the contract.

It is great to see this issue tackled by the highest levels but it is about 2 weeks late.  I don’t understand why this couldn’t be done at lower levels or why it has to come down from the CDS….


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## Navy_Pete (6 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> A CDS task order is coming out shortly to task Base Comd to use their pers to pack, load and move F&E to storage for posted members that can’t meet their legal obligations due to contractors refusing/unable to honour their part of the contract.
> 
> It is great to see this issue tackled by the highest levels but it is about 2 weeks late.  I don’t understand why this couldn’t be done at lower levels or why it has to come down from the CDS….


Maybe a funding/authority issue? Not sure how it works if you need to have some reservists on call, or if you need to rent storage facilities. Maybe some places where you have a lot of PATs sitting around waiting for courses and empty hangars it's not a big deal, but somewhere like the NCR or some of the small outstations one or both of those are an issue.

The CMTTs I've seen aren't big enough to handle a lot of big truckloads (in addition to the normal volume of F&E that moves through CMTT) and generally don't have many people.

It'd be nice if someone would go to bat for the CAF on the TBS policies; we drop hundreds of thousands - millions on training and development of people, and we get absolutely nickle and dimed by the really inflexible policies on what is the biggest purchase of people's lives. The current market is already insane, and one bad move is probably enough to break the camels back (and legs, neck, etc) and lose the member (plus add onto the pile for their wingers when they think of reasons to get out).

The worst part of this is some of these people are inevitably moving to a job with some kind of partial/full work from home arrangement.

What a shitshow, really glad I'm not going anywhere this year. Feel really bad for everyone posted this year that is dealing with this.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jul 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Maybe a funding/authority issue? Not sure how it works if you need to have some reservists on call, or if you need to rent storage facilities. Maybe some places where you have a lot of PATs sitting around waiting for courses and empty hangars it's not a big deal, but somewhere like the NCR or some of the small outstations one or both of those are an issue.


I don’t think it’s a funding or authority issue.  Funding for storage was already provided by DCBA and bases have funding for reserve time.  In times like this, unless it is in direct support to force employment, people should be diverted from their day-to-day jobs to help out. After all, we’re not talking hundreds of cases per day but a handful across Canada. We’re talking about people with legal obligation to vacate a property by a certain date that had their move canceled by the movers.


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## Weinie (6 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I don’t think it’s a funding or authority issue.  Funding for storage was already provided by DCBA and bases have funding for reserve time.  *In times like this, unless it is in direct support to force employment, people should be diverted from their day-to-day jobs to help out. *After all, we’re not talking hundreds of cases per day but a handful across Canada. We’re talking about people with legal obligation to vacate a property by a certain date that had their move canceled by the movers.


Wow. 

So a predicament faced by a minute percentage of people should occupy the strategic thinking and decisions and deployments of the CAF?  

I don't understand your thinking here. If it is a handful of cases, it will resolve itself. Are you offering up your staff to assist? Better yet, can you?


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jul 2021)

While it is a minute amount of people, the liability the CAF exposes itself to by not acting is significant.  So significant that the CDS will issue shortly a task order to address this, specifically how I suggested many posts ago.  I just don’t believe it should have gone to that level. Base Comd should have taken action with their resources, under their command.

Also, the “minute” amount of people it affects (it is still many when you count across the country) are put under an incredible amount of stress throughout the ordeal.  The CAF owes them the support throughout the ordeal and so far, the comms have been “You’re on your own.  Good luck.” Not acceptable.

On the question whether I would volunteer myself and my staff?  In a heartbeat. I care about people and their family.  It isn’t just a saying for me.


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## Weinie (6 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> While it is a minute amount of people, the liability the CAF exposes itself to by not acting is significant.  So significant that the CDS will issue shortly a task order to address this, specifically how I suggested many posts ago.  I just don’t believe it should have gone to that level. Base Comd should have taken action with their resources, under their command.
> 
> Also, the “minute” amount of people it affects (it is still many when you count across the country) are put under an incredible amount of stress throughout the ordeal.  The CAF owes them the support throughout the ordeal and so far, the comms have been “You’re on your own.  Good luck.” Not acceptable.
> 
> On the question whether I would volunteer myself and my staff?  In a heartbeat. I care about people and their family.  It isn’t just a saying for me.


Then my congrats/salutations to you.


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## lenaitch (6 Jul 2021)

Sometimes leadership is doing the right things vs. doing things right.


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## kev994 (6 Jul 2021)

On one of the FB groups a member claims that 8 wing has moved their F&E to the arena UFN, completed 2 hours from closing


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## PuckChaser (6 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> On one of the FB groups a member claims that 8 wing has moved their F&E to the arena UFN, completed 2 hours from closing


Pretty lucky, usually 8 Wing assets show up 3-4 days late from when they're booked or just break down on route, usually at a nice resort area...


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## dapaterson (6 Jul 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Pretty lucky, usually 8 Wing assets show up 3-4 days late from when they're booked or just break down on route, usually at a nice resort area...


That's why they're using land, not air, transportation...


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## kev994 (6 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> Wow.
> 
> So a predicament faced by a minute percentage of people should occupy the strategic thinking and decisions and deployments of the CAF?
> 
> I don't understand your thinking here. If it is a handful of cases, it will resolve itself. Are you offering up your staff to assist? Better yet, can you?


I don’t understand your thinking. If a handful of members a left to figure it out on their own then everyone else sees that the CAF doesn’t care and they start looking for work elsewhere lest they become part of the minute percentage.

Edit: basically everyone I talk to who’s moving this APS is terrified.


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## Quirky (7 Jul 2021)

So if Cpl Bloggins drops my box of dishes while moving all my stuff into the base arena, who picks up the tab, the unit?


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## SupersonicMax (7 Jul 2021)

Quirky said:


> So if Cpl Bloggins drops my box of dishes while moving all my stuff into the base arena, who picks up the tab, the unit?


Claim against the Crown.


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## hattrick72 (7 Jul 2021)

Hopefully the base commanders are smart enough to task from within the unit affected and if ops are too busy they can go after 4.


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## kev994 (7 Jul 2021)

Quirky said:


> So if Cpl Bloggins drops my box of dishes while moving all my stuff into the base arena, who picks up the tab, the unit?


Yeah, my first thought too, but I don’t see any better options if you have a closing date to meet. Apparently the movers’ warehouses are full so delaying closing, among other problems, just makes it worse. I’m glad there’s at least some sort of help because so far the answer has been that hope is a COA and according to policy you’re f&$@ed.


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## kev994 (7 Jul 2021)

The list of ideas to solve your own problems that Max posted is up on an official website Here.


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## lenaitch (7 Jul 2021)

I posted earlier or in another thread of a friend who was under threat of being medically released, then told 'all's good', got promoted and posted, then received his release.  Because of the 'all's fine' part, they started a family.  His release date in February.  In order to take advantage of educational subsidy, he has to release early in order to complete the course within time limits.  He's now looking at potentially a cross-country move with a 2-week old.  If there are complications with goods moving, it may push him over the edge.


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## Navy_Pete (13 Jul 2021)

Has anyone dealt with this in Ottawa? One of the guys I work with had his movers cancel on him today and may show up tomorrow (with a close date of the 15th) so just wondering if they had a good POC (other than the base traffic I/C and 2I/C) or some hard earned advice to skip some BS.


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## OldSolduer (13 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Claim against the Crown.


Good luck with that.


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## SupersonicMax (13 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Good luck with that.


It is spelled out in the CDS TASKORD.


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## MJP (13 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Good luck with that.


They aren't that difficult to do and when there is a clear nexus to it being a crown failure (breaking someone's plates) they become easier.  

People just make them out to be hard mostly because they have so little experience dealing with them.


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## SupersonicMax (14 Jul 2021)

For those interested, the CDS signed the TASKORD on Monday.  I attached it for reference.


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