# Public Accounts & DND Losses:  What MSM picks up on vs. what the docs show



## The Bread Guy (3 Nov 2011)

Here's what one reporter picked out of the hundreds of pages of Public Accounts issued today by the GoC.


> *Missing: 3 PalmPilots and 42 military weapons and accessories *
> Provided by iPolitics Staff
> Posted on Thu, Nov 3, 2011, 4:17 pm by Sonya Bell
> 
> ...


To give you the _rest_ of the story, I've attached the section on losses dealing with DND - if you're REALLY interested in seeing the whole honkin' list of losses, you can download just that section here (28 pretty-small-print page PDF).


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## Wookilar (4 Nov 2011)

$68K in fraudulent claims from CFB Halifax alone? What the hell happened there?

The numbers from VAC are also interesting. 7 cases of fraudulent claims = $743K, that's about 40% payments each (that's just an average, i know it's probably a range). Given the amount of money they give out in claims/year, that's actually quite a small number.

About our lists:
1) what's the difference between military kit and equipment, technical equipment and tools?
2) Big difference between a weapon or an accessory. I know it's all "part" of the weapon, however, reality is I am not so worried about 20 missing bayonets as I am 20 missing C-6's.
3) Where does this info come from? Is this our consolidated lists from the BOI's we don't call BOI's anymore on change of command?

Wook


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## The Bread Guy (4 Nov 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> .... 2) Big difference between a weapon or an accessory. I know it's all "part" of the weapon, however, reality is I am not so worried about 20 missing bayonets as I am 20 missing C-6's ....


This jumped out at me, too.

I'd be curious to hear from those knowing such things how these lists are compiled, too.


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## ModlrMike (4 Nov 2011)

Between bayonets, mags, BFA, cleaning kits etc, etc, etc, it's easy to get to 42. I know that as the SM of a Coy in AFG I had to substantiate several loss reports for wpns "parts". I'm sure they showed up in the 2009 list.


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## garb811 (4 Nov 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> $68K in fraudulent claims from CFB Halifax alone? What the hell happened there?


Not having intimate knowledge, IR fraud is a big ticket item right now.  Someone gets picked up on an audit after a couple of years on IR, the numbers add up quick.


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## Greymatters (4 Nov 2011)

Would anyone who understands accounting and/or fraud be able to explain what 'loss of accountable advances' means?   
(On page 4)

Edit - otherwise, an interesting doc, huge numbers when it comes to claims fraud...


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2011)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Would anyone who understands accounting and/or fraud be able to explain what 'loss of accountable advances' means?
> (On page 4)



I don't understand accounting, but this might help:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/Search/Search.aspx?txtS3archA11=accountable+advance&txtT1tl3=%22Accountable+Advances+Regulations%22&h1ts0n1y=0&ddC0nt3ntTyp3=Regulations

"Accountable Advances Regulations": 
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-86-438/index.html

"An individual to whom an accountable advance is issued is personally responsible and accountable for that advance and any loss or shortage in respect of that advance may be recovered from that individual."


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## Greymatters (4 Nov 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I don't understand accounting, but this might help:
> http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/Search/Search.aspx?txtS3archA11=accountable+advance&txtT1tl3=%22Accountable+Advances+Regulations%22&h1ts0n1y=0&ddC0nt3ntTyp3=Regulations
> 
> "An individual to whom an accountable advance is issued is personally responsible and accountable for that advance and any loss or shortage in respect of that advance may be recovered from that individual."



Thanks mariomike, but not quite what I meant, I' ll try again:  I understand the description, but how was it 'lost'?  Are they talking about i.e., getting an advance prior to a deployment and then not deploying?  Sounds like more of a simple administrative/pay issue...


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## garb811 (5 Nov 2011)

It is probably more along the lines of someone taking an accountable advance for their position (ie. a RMS Clk taking a MTEC advance), then it either gets stolen, they screw up their accounting etc. etc.


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## Greymatters (6 Nov 2011)

That would make more sense...


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## aesop081 (6 Nov 2011)

Could also be in instances where a group travelling is issued a bulk claim. The bulk claim holder will have a substantial amount of money in his/her possession to issue to individuals in the group as required. If this were to become lost or "lost".............well....you know.......


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## Greymatters (6 Nov 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Could also be in instances where a group travelling is issued a bulk claim. The bulk claim holder will have a substantial amount of money in his/her possession to issue to individuals in the group as required. If this were to become lost or "lost".............well....you know.......



That is a credible situation I can see happening...


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## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2011)

A bit more broad-strokes context here....


> Fake overtime and expense claims, theft, fraud, vandalism and violent acts of nature add up to nearly $175 million dollars in unexpected losses from the federal government's coffers discovered in the last fiscal year, newly released accounting records have revealed.
> 
> The documents, tabled by the government last week in Parliament, reveal a pattern of losses in each government department ranging from stolen petty cash, taxi vouchers and security uniforms to BlackBerries and other government property.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 9 Nov 11


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