# CAF rank system [Merged]



## Jmacca (8 Dec 2003)

Hello everyone,

I just got done emailing my local recruiter with a series of 3-4 emails and my question still wasn‘t achieved so I am seeking it here.

Anyhow, so I would be joining the army when im 18-19 in the infantry.
Now I am aware that I start off as a private, but I have a few questions concerning that.

1 - The recruiter said it takes approx 3-4 years usually to  achieve the rank of corporal. Is their any ways to get to corporal faster? 

2 - On the DND site it has like additional training or advances training, I was wondering if you take these specialty training coarses on your own time, or is it class/job specific. IE - All infantry will do a desert training coarse, or a combat diving coarse. If these coarses are available how do you go abouts enrolling in them?

3 - In excess to number 2, if their are these additional optional training coarses, would they perhaps make you a more multi role - umm well, better soldier if you understand what Im saying. Like would you be a more called upon soldier? 

4 - Stupid question, but when I read the infantry officer " what they do " it gave me the impression they arent on the fields much and are more of a strategic play maker for the unit. Correct me if Im wrong, but I thought officers were like commanders to a platoon or what not on the field? Much like it is in the United States, a captain would lead his men into battle.

5 - In general, is it 3-4 years between each rank?

6 - Would a college ( Not university ) trade like lockpicking and airsmithing be of any use in the infantry, or would they simply look at me and say " why the ****  did he take that " sort of thing

Thanks guys


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (8 Dec 2003)

How about getting through your BMQ/SQ and DP1A before worrying about getting promoted to Corporal.  Everyone has to do their time in.


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## Slim (8 Dec 2003)

Three or four years will pass before you know it and before long you‘ll wish you were still a PTE so you wouldn‘t get s#*t on as much!


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## combat_medic (8 Dec 2003)

1. In the reg force, no. You have to earn the promotion and spend a certain amount of time in rank. Once that time has elapsed, then you can be promoted if you merit it. If not, you stay at your current rank until you do.

2. Advanced and specialty courses are based on availability, time in, performance and merit. If you‘re interested, you can express your interest, and if your boss thinks you deserve it, they MAY put your name in. If they don‘t think you deserve it, then they will nominate someone who does.

3. Getting a specialty course in the infantry won‘t get you more tours or operational experience, if that‘s what you‘re asking. However, it will offer you more diverse employment opportunities. For example, if you get your basic para course, you could get employed in a jump company.

4. Lower ranking infantry officers will lead their platoon or company in the field, but even then there‘s a lot of strategic planning and paperwork to be done. As you become a Battalion or Brigade commander, your hands on time in the field diminishes, and you do more of the higher level planning. It‘s the same in the US army; once you get promoted past a certain level, you aren‘t going to be on the ground commanding Platoons anymore.

5. The time between each rank increases as you go up. While you‘re waiting 4 years to be a Cpl, you could be waiting twice that for a higher rank.

6. Something like locksmithing or airsmithing would not really be of much use at all to an infantryman. They would probably give you wierd looks.


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## Jmacca (8 Dec 2003)

Awsome, thanks for the answers there guys.

On the subject of question 6, are their any trades that be of use to a typical infantryman? Anything that comes off the top of your head that would be of interest to them


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## stukirkpatrick (8 Dec 2003)

I believe a college course along the lines of ‘police foundations‘ or ‘law and security‘ will be smiled upon.  I  think it is one of the few (if not only) college courses that one can be reinbursed for in the reserves, so it must mean something.


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## Jmacca (8 Dec 2003)

And, if I were to take this, what would it mean for me? 

General gratitude and applause?


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## Padraig OCinnead (8 Dec 2003)

I think those last two courses would be more pertinent to a trade such as MP. There aren‘t too many courses offered downtown that are applicable to the infantry. Maybe if they offered courses on how to switch your mind off when your body is screaming for a bit of rest, or a course that quieted your sense of injustice when you saw wogs like me sitting in the back of C/S O with my feet dry and my coffee hot. These would be good courses to have.

Combat Medic answered your other questions pretty good I think


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## Ruthless4Life (8 Dec 2003)

May I also add that it usually takes a shorter time to climb ranks in the Reserves than the Regular force, for, sadly, many in the Reserves quit, and many are needed to fill the ranks.


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## Armymedic (9 Dec 2003)

Wanna get promoted:
1. do your time, learn your job, and then,
2. as a Pte, work hard, do everything your told, and never ask why?...
3. As a cpl, work hard, do everything your told, ask why so you can understand why your doing it and so you can teach others how to do it...
4.  then just be **** good at everything, and learn from your mistakes, cause people will usually let you screw up once.


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## xFusilier (9 Dec 2003)

1. Usually not.  From time to time, depending on the need in the Bn certain, usally with outstanding preformance, private soldiers, and corporals recieve acellerated promotion.  As far as I know (which at times can be not very much), this is quite rare.

2. Most infantry battalions will run a PCF (Primary Combat Function) Cycle.  Duirng this time individuals will be nominated for these courses. (now basdically Infantry Comms, Recconaisance Patrolman, Armour Defence and Driver Wheeled.  These are basic courses that privates will need for promotion.  Certain courses, Basic Parachutist require that you volunteer in addition to being nominated.  But to answer your question no not every infantryman in the Army does desert warfare, or jungle warfare, though I can pretty much guarantee that you will recieve basic winter warfare (tent goes up, tent comes down)     .

3.  Almost all training you will recieve in the infantry will be trade specific.  The Army will not for example send you on Basic Med Tech if your trade is infantry.  Any ocurses that are not trade specific will come much later in your career should you advance in rank.  WIth reference to overseas tasking the majority of the overseas tasking that you will go on as a young soldier will be Battalion taskings.  I.E. the Battlegroup in Bosnia or the one tasked to ISAF in Afghanistan, selection for these is usually that you be fit to go (ie, Medically, Dentally Fit, and have your personal life in order).  There are overseas tasking that are assigned on a individual basis but these usually involve specialist trades (Med Tech, Rad Op, Supply Tech, etc.), Sergeants and Warrant Officers, and Officers. 

4.  Infantry Officers command, that is what they do.  As a Lieutennant, command rifle Platoons.  Captians Command combat support platoons (Armour Defence, Recce Pl), and Majors command companies.  In between command positions, officers will take on staff appointments at the Battalion as a Captain; Adjudant (responsible to the Commanding officer for Personnel Administration),  Operations Officer, etc.

5. Yes

6.  It all depends how competetive the recruiting process is.  When the economy is good less people want to join the Army, when the economy is in the tubes, more people want to join the Army.  I would say that if you have made the decision to join the Army and you are in high school, apply as soon as possible, why waste your money on a college diploma that you most likely will not use for the 4 years of your basic engagement.  

Please note that the Army has changed a lot in the past 6 years. I have answered your questions to the best of my knowledge. For those individuals who are in the regulary Army, employed as Infantrymen, I defer to them.
Thanks guys


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## Jmacca (9 Dec 2003)

Well guys, you have been a wealth of knowledge to me.

I think I primarily have to work out on the physical strenght building before I get my hopes to high.


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## Home_Slice (12 Jul 2006)

I'm conpletely clueless on this stuff. I'm trying to figure out pay...so, as someone who is starting in the infantry, what is your first rank? Where do you do from there?

And can someone explain to me the difference between commissioned and non-commissioned? Don't hurt the noobie  ;D

Thank you.


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## AJFitzpatrick (29 Jun 2007)

Now I know there has never been one, but is Field Marshal part of the Canadian rank structure with established insignia etc.

Thanks


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## tlg (29 Jun 2007)

Field Marshall is part of the British rank structure and I believe is only used in times of war. Canada's highest rank is General, which currently is the CDS (Chief of Defence Staff) Gen. Hillier.

So no, it is not part of the Canadian Forces Rank Structure.


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## XMP (29 Jun 2007)

TLG is correct, there is no Field Marshal in the CF and the highest military position is CDS with the rank of General. However for political purposes the Governor General is the Commander in Chief of the CF. If he/she whishes to wear uniform, the GG can either wear the rank of Governor General:













or the uniform and insignia of Colonel of whichever Regiment or Branch he or she is Honourary Colonel of.


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## exspy (29 Jun 2007)

AJ,

CF message DPLS 287 (issued on 30 Jan 1968, the day prior to Unification) had the subject heading "CANADIAN FORCES RANK TITLES".  It set out the new unified rank structure approved under CFAO 3-2 that was to take effect the next day.

The highest ranking officer provided for was 'General', however if in a naval position the rank 'Admiral' was still authorized.  I don't believe this has changed in the intervening 39 years.

Prior to this the Canadian Army rank structure went up to and included the rank of Field Marshal however, as you point out, it was never awarded.  The RCAF also had Marshal of the RCAF and the RCN had Admiral of the Fleet.  This information comes from an article called "Integration at the Top" written in 1965 by Squadron Leader AT Paton and published simultaneously in Roundel, The Crowsnest and The Canadian Army Journal.  With the article was a chart of the three services rank structure provided 'to help ease the pain' of Integration for those personnel working at CFHQ in Ottawa.

Hope this helps.


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## AJFitzpatrick (29 Jun 2007)

I thank you all,


I'll put Field Marshal into my technetium mine proposal.


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

exspy said:
			
		

> Prior to this the Canadian Army rank structure went up to and included the rank of Field Marshal however, as you point out, it was never awarded.  The RCAF also had Marshal of the RCAF and the RCN had Admiral of the Fleet.  This information comes from an article called "Integration at the Top" written in 1965 by Squadron Leader AT Paton and published simultaneously in Roundel, The Crowsnest and The Canadian Army Journal.  With the article was a chart of the three services rank structure provided 'to help ease the pain' of Integration for those personnel working at CFHQ in Ottawa.



It takes a lot of soldiers to make up a lot of divisions that in turn would have to make up a few armies before you can even sonsider having someone deserve to be called Field Marshall.

Although, if we had given senior planning staff long enough, Im sure there would have been enough paper soldiers to justify three Field Marshalls...


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## kawa11 (4 Jun 2011)

I've been looking around for some time trying to find a comprehensive list of ALL Canadian forces ranks.
I don't know if I'm using the wrong keywords or maybe I just don't understand the rank structure & break down.

The closest answer I get for Canada is something rather repetitious and similar to the rank image listed on this site (http://milnet.ca/info/ranks.php)

However, is there not a rank below Private? (Pvt/Rte.) Is there not 2 ranks above Private? (Pvt-Tr./Junior Pvt & Senior Pvt.)
Does Canada not have the appointment of Sgt-Major?
Do we have "levels" of CWO? (ie. CWO1 - CWO5)


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2011)

The chart you referenced is correct.



> However, is there not a rank below Private? (Pvt/Rte.) Is there not 2 ranks above Private? (Pvt-Tr./Junior Pvt & Senior Pvt.)



The Private (PTE) rank consists of Pte(R) for recruit, Pte(B) for basic, and Pte(T) for trained. Only Pte(T) wears the single chevron. That's it for privates.



> Does Canada not have the appointment of Sgt-Major?



Yes, but it's an appointment controlled by the units. Strictly speaking, any WO/PO1 can be appointed as a SM. In reality, this sometimes includes Sgts.



> Do we have "levels" of CWO? (ie. CWO1 - CWO5)



Not exactly. There's no such thing as CWO1-CWO5 (that's more and American thing). We do have CWO who hold senior appointments that are above unit CWO ie: Base CWO, Command CWO, Area CWO, Branch Chief, etc.

By the way, the correct abbreviation for Private in this country is Pte.


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## kawa11 (4 Jun 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not exactly. There's no such thing as CWO1-CWO5 (that's more and American thing). We do have CWO who hold senior appointments that are above unit CWO ie: Base CWO, Command CWO, Area CWO, Branch Chief, etc.
> 
> By the way, the correct abbreviation for Private in this country is Pte.


I worked for KBR-Halliburton during OEFv/OIFiii so I'm slowly taking in the Canadian acronyms I come across on this site (thank God for Wikipedia)
Took me a while to figure out an IMP was an MRE  :-[

In Canada, do Pte(T)s "outrank" Pte(B)s, similar to the structure of say the Marines? or is that sort of localized to America based on the size of their forces?

Lastly, I ask all this because I was lead to believe that based on my previous experience in a [US] military kitchen; a red seal; etc., etc. that I would leave basic as a "Senior Private" and start at the pay range similar to "Private Standard 3" (http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131#ncmsregular-3)..
Was I hosed by recruiters into accepting Cook as a position [versus learning a new trade] as my brother-in-law warned me about?

Thanks for the clarification..


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## 211RadOp (4 Jun 2011)

You will leave BMQ as a Pte(R) with a monthly gross pay of $2663.  Each year you will move up one incentive until you reach the highest incentive for your current rank.  The exception to this is when you are appointed to the rank of MCpl.  If you are, for example, a Cpl incentive 3 when you are appointed, you will receive MCpl incentive 3.

Ptes don't outrank anyone.  There may be times a Pte is placed in charge of a task with other Ptes. When I do this, I place the Pte with the most knowledge of the task in charge of the task.


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## AmmoTech90 (4 Jun 2011)

A Pte is pretty much a Pte.  If there is a work party consisting of only Ptes, and there were Pte(T) mixed with Pte(B) then a Pte(T) should be in charge, but according the QR&Os there is only 1 rank of Pte and no special dispensation between Pte(R)/Pte(B)/Pte(T) as there is between Cpl/MCpl (seeing as there is only the rank of Cpl).  Legally the Pte who has seniority (enrolled first in a Ptes case) has seniority, regardless of if they Pte(R/B/T).  So a Pte(R) who has been in PAT/PAR for three years has seniority over a Pte(T) who joined two years and 11 months ago. (barring shenanigans by the CDS IAW QR&O 3.09)

Not knowing the details of the case the following is likely scenario based on what you have said.  You may be appointed Pte(T) with the maximum pay.  The thing to ask about is time credit for promotion because this will be speed up promotion to Cpl.  Find out how much time for promotion you were credited vice pay incentives.  I came in the Regs from the Reserve with 2 years for pay but only 9 months for promotion so they are not always the same.


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## Dennis Ruhl (4 Jun 2011)

To further fuzzify things, there are alternate titles for privates.  In the engineers they are sappers; artillery - gunners; guards regiments - guardsmen; rifle regiments - riflemen; armoured regiments - troopers and there may be more.  Artillery corporals are called bombardiers.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jun 2011)

SigOps are unofficially called Sig (Signaller).

Edit: SigOp Pte(T) that is.


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## kawa11 (4 Jun 2011)

Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> To further fuzzify things, there are alternate titles for privates.  In the engineers they are sappers; artillery - gunners; guards regiments - guardsmen; rifle regiments - riflemen; armoured regiments - troopers and there may be more.  Artillery corporals are called bombardiers.


  Soooo, what you're all saying is it goes Private, Corporal, Sergeant...eh?

LOL




			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> The thing to ask about is time credit for promotion because this will be speed up promotion to Cpl.  Find out how much time for promotion you were credited vice pay incentives.  I came in the Regs from the Reserve with 2 years for pay but only 9 months for promotion so they are not always the same.


Awesome, I'll be sure to ask for clarification at the swear in.
Cheers!


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jun 2011)

kawa11 said:
			
		

> Soooo, what you're all saying is it goes Private, Corporal, Sergeant...eh?



The is a Master Corporal between Cpl and Sgt, but that is more correctly an appointment also and not a rank. However you need to be appointed to MCpl before you get promoted to Sgt.

Clear as mud? ;D


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## Drag (4 Jun 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The is a Master Corporal between Cpl and Sgt, but that is more correctly an appointment also and not a rank. However you need to be appointed to MCpl before you get promoted to Sgt.
> 
> Clear as mud? ;D



Normally.... However, in theory a Cpl could be directly promoted to a Sgt but that has not happened in a long time. I know an individual that got promoted directly in the early 1980s...


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## McG (4 Jun 2011)

kawa11 said:
			
		

> Does Canada not have the appointment of Schematic?


This appointment is positional based and does not (in most cases) come with any visible distinction worn on the uniform. The appointment is generally given to positions which are paired with a senior officer as a "command team" and is most commonly seen in submit sergeant majors (CS Ms, SS Ms, BS Ms, etc) and unit sergeant majors (RS Ms).  At the formation (Base SM and Bed SM) and command levels (LF_A SM and Army SM), there are differences in the rank to identify those CWO holding the senior appointments.  Most SM positions are at the MWO and CWO level, but I am aware of a few established SM positions at the WO level (and also of Wis appointed SM when the submit MWO position was vacant).  I have never seen a Sgt appointed SM and I have never seen a SM appointment below the submit level, but it is possible that such things exist.  The CF manual of abbreviations includes troop sergeant major (TSM).

I am aware of a few SM positions within the Air Force, and I believe the appointment does not exist in the Navy (which is not to say a Sailor could not be appointed SM if posted outside the environment).  Where the appointment does not exist, rank is used in the title of senior appointments (eg: Base CWO, Wing CWO, Fmn CWO, etc).


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jun 2011)

D3 said:
			
		

> Normally.... However, in theory a Cpl could be directly promoted to a Sgt but that has not happened in a long time. I know an individual that got promoted directly in the early 1980s...



That would be so far out of the norm as to be an anomaly and not considered.


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## Edward Campbell (4 Jun 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> ...
> I am aware of a few SM positions within the Air Force, and I believe the appointment does not exist in the Navy (which is not to say a Sailor could not be appointed SM if posted outside the environment).  Where the appointment does not exist, rank is used in the title of senior appointments (eg: Base CWO, Wing CWO, Fmn CWO, etc).




There was at least one Navy CPO2 who was posted to and served capably as an (army) squadron sergeant major in the old EW squadron. It was a steep learning curve - especially the duties of a SSM in field operations - but he managed very well by dint of lots of brains and a passion to do things well, no matter how new and strange.



Edit: typo


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2011)

Not that odd for us "purple" types. I was CSM of MedCoy for two years as CPO2, taking the troops into theatre during my tenure.


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## Edward Campbell (4 Jun 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Not that odd for us "purple" types. I was CSM of MedCoy for two years as CPO2, taking the troops into theatre during my tenure.




Good point. I had the honour of commanding a diverse group of sailors, soldiers and air force members in a fairly large army unit that got a lot of sand in its shoes. I quickly forgot that my people were blue or green or purple; they all had jobs to do and they (almost) all did them bloody well. But I did learn that CPOs have preferred forms of address from officers and less ranks.


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## Pusser (4 Jun 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The is a Master Corporal between Cpl and Sgt, but that is more correctly an appointment also and not a rank. However you need to be appointed to MCpl before you get promoted to Sgt.
> 
> Clear as mud? ;D



And if a sergeant gets busted for being a bad boy, he goes directly to corporal, does not pass master corporal, loses $200....

Some occupations do not have master corporals (e.g. musician, dental tech, I believe).  They go directly from corporal to sergeant.


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## lea (4 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> And if a sergeant gets busted for being a bad boy, he goes directly to corporal, does not pass master corporal, loses $200....
> 
> Some occupations do not have master corporals (e.g. musician, dental tech, I believe).  They go directly from corporal to sergeant.



Not sure about dental tech.
  http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/19w-19e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=4359


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> And if a sergeant gets busted for being a bad boy, he goes directly to corporal, does not pass default to master corporal, loses $200, maybe....



There, fixed that for you.

Which, simply, just proves my point


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## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But I did learn that CPOs have preferred forms of address from officers and less ranks.



We are kind of particular like that.


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## helpup (5 Jun 2011)

kawa11 said:
			
		

> Was I *hosed* by recruiters into accepting Cook as a position [versus learning a new trade] as my brother-in-law warned me about?



Was that an allusion to being a hoser and you mentioned soon after "eh"  not too shabby, most of us do not talk that way anymore if many did at any point but Y'all are impressing me.  Aboot time.  ;D


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## Pusser (5 Jun 2011)

lea said:
			
		

> Not sure about dental tech.
> http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/19w-19e/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=4359



I stand corrected on dental techs.


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## Pusser (5 Jun 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> And if a sergeant gets busted for being a bad boy, he goes directly to corporal, does not pass default to master corporal, loses $200, maybe....
> 
> There, fixed that for you.
> 
> Which, simply, just proves my point



Guess you haven't played Monopoly for awhile.  I would say that the pay difference between a sergeant and corporal is such that they individual will definitely lose $200.  (i.e. I'm not referring to a fine)


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## brihard (5 Jun 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Some occupations do not have master corporals (e.g. musician, dental tech, I believe).  They go directly from corporal to sergeant.



I'm familiar with quite a number of MCpls in the musician trade. I can't speak for reg force musicians, but certainly in the reserves there are plenty.


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## Robert0288 (5 Jun 2011)

I was about to attest to that, but you had me beat


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## dapaterson (5 Jun 2011)

Reg F musicians are almost immediately madfe Sgts, because they always have been.

The continued utility of the music branch in the Reg F is another discussion; if they are intended to raise morale perhaps they should go to where the troops are some time.  If they are too busy touring European massed bands concerts to entertain deployed troops, I have several suggestions of what we can do with the PYs...


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## Lowlander (5 Jun 2011)

I was at the Canadian War Musium a few years back in Ottawa and I saw some 2Lt's walking arould in Cadpat but with red bars on thier slip-on's.  Does anyone know what that means?


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## JesseWZ (5 Jun 2011)

Yes, they are in Basic Officer Training at St Jean. There is a weekend trip up to the War Museum.


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## Lowlander (5 Jun 2011)

As 2Lts?


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## Pusser (5 Jun 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm familiar with quite a number of MCpls in the musician trade. I can't speak for reg force musicians, but certainly in the reserves there are plenty.



That is correct.  I was referring to regular force musicians.  As DA Paterson said, they are promoted rather quickly.  I knew a regular force musician who was a sergeant at 20 years old.


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## Infanteer (5 Jun 2011)

Lowlander said:
			
		

> As 2Lts?



Depending on their commissioning plan, they may have been 2Lts from the get-go (vice OCdts).  Specialist officer's such as Lawyers come in as Captains.


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## Wookilar (6 Jun 2011)

And, believe it or not, there was one Maj red-stripe in St Jean (summer '05 or '06) that was doing his own special IAP/BOTP. As soon as he was done, off the Kingston for another course at the (I think) PSTC then off the A'stan.

Orthopedic trauma surgeon.

He looked very lonely marching around in the basement all by himself so we had to ask  ;D Not that us old guys were nosey or anything.

Wook


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## Drag (6 Jun 2011)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Depending on their commissioning plan, they may have been 2Lts from the get-go (vice OCdts).  Specialist officer's such as Lawyers come in as Captains.



Medical Officer Training Plan(MOTP) and Dental Officer Training Plan(DOTP) candidates come in as 2Lts.


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## dapaterson (6 Jun 2011)

DEO specialists are enrolled as 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Capt (generally).  This means they can be busted down to 2Lt in the event of a court-martial.  Administrivia.


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## JesseWZ (6 Jun 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> And, believe it or not, there was one Maj red-stripe in St Jean (summer '05 or '06) that was doing his own special IAP/BOTP. As soon as he was done, off the Kingston for another course at the (I think) PSTC then off the A'stan.
> 
> Orthopedic trauma surgeon.
> 
> ...


I remember that guy. 2006 it was.


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## Lowlander (6 Jun 2011)

Do just the officer students wear red at st. jean or is it everyone?


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## NavyHopeful (6 Jun 2011)

Lowlander said:
			
		

> Do just the officer students wear red at st. jean or is it everyone?



I think it's only the officer students.  When you see any of the NCOs at BMQ, they all complete BMQ as PTE (R), so they actually have a blank rank symbol on their sleeves...  Everytime I saw an instructor on all of the Basic Up videos, they had their regular CADPAT ranks on, and they're green (or whatever colour they make them for whatever element they're in, I don't know for sure, I haven't gone yet)

But this may have changed, again I'm not 100% sure.

Rev


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## aesop081 (6 Jun 2011)

NavyHopeful said:
			
		

> When you see any of the NCOs at BMQ, they all complete BMQ as PTE (R),



Technical point Rev, *NCM*s complete BMQ...............A private is not an *NCO*.

NCO = Cpls ( and MCpl by extension) and Sgts.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Jun 2011)

And to add to the OPs confusion the Navy has their own rank structure as well.


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## dapaterson (7 Jun 2011)

Of course, the Air Force has its own ranks as well.

"Hey Bob."

"Yes Frank?"

"Have you seen Chuck?"


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## AshleyMarie34 (24 May 2019)

Hey there. I have a question that I haven't been able to figure out on my own and it regards one working their way up the military chain.

I know of a member who has been in for close to 20 years and is still in corporal rank. I also know someone who has been in less than 10 years and she is a Captian if I recall correctly.

Just curious how that works if anyone has the time to explain. Thank you!


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## Pusser (24 May 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> Hey there. I have a question that I haven't been able to figure out on my own and it regards one working their way up the military chain.
> 
> I know of a member who has been in for close to 20 years and is still in corporal rank. I also know someone who has been in less than 10 years and she is a Captian if I recall correctly.
> 
> Just curious how that works if anyone has the time to explain. Thank you!



A short explanation is that personnel can be recruited as either non-commissioned members (NCM) or as officers.  If you join as an NCM, promotion to corporal is automatic, provided you pass all the requisite training and it takes about four years from enrollment.  If you join as an officer, promotion to captain is also automatic, provided you pass all the requisite training, but it can take a little longer because the four year clock only starts when you are commissioned, which may not happen until some time after enrollment.  Promotion beyond corporal for NCMs and captain for officers, is based on merit, in competition with one's peers.  The ranks above corporal and captain are "controlled" with strict limits on how many personnel may hold these ranks at any one time.  It is quite conceivable that one can serve many years (and many cases entire careers) and never be promoted beyond corporal/captain.  It doesn't mean these folks are idiots, just that in competition with everyone else, they didn't make it far enough up the merit list to get one of the limited spots available.

This is a very simple explanation and there are many possible variations (e.g. someone who joins as an NCM, but is later selected for commissioning as an officer).


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## Kilted (24 May 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> Hey there. I have a question that I haven't been able to figure out on my own and it regards one working their way up the military chain.
> 
> I know of a member who has been in for close to 20 years and is still in corporal rank. I also know someone who has been in less than 10 years and she is a Captian if I recall correctly.
> 
> Just curious how that works if anyone has the time to explain. Thank you!



To start with a Captain is an officer, which means that they most likely started out as an Officer Cadet or a Second Lieutenant. 

A Corporal is an NCO rank which is a subcategory of NCM who do not require university degrees, however many still have them. To progress past the rank of Corporal, leadership courses are needed. Meaning that if a soldier does not go on leadership or does not pass leadership they do not move on. There are time requirements in rank, however the bigger requirement is passing the required courses. Now the Army likes to change the courses from time to time and I even know people who were demoted to Cpl because of that. Overall time in is not a very good indication of someone's rank, you can have someone who is a cpl for their entire career or you can get someone who moves up the ranks very fast. That's where the saying for the CD "never trust a Cpl with one, or a Warrant without one" comes from. Although I'm going to be in that category very soon whenever I have the medal pined on me.


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## kratz (24 May 2019)

AshleyMarie34

To answer your questions.

The CAF has two separate rank streams, Officer and NCM.
The number of years spent at any rank depends on a number of variables.

*Officers* – In generic terms, officers are managers and planners. While officers may lead troops, their main focus is on the larger picture.
*NCMs* – In generic terms, are the hands on, workers of the CAF.

The two rank streams are separate and generally not intended to “work your way up from the bottom”.  The Navy.ca Wiki – CAF Rank Insignia offers a current and historical view of the rank systems.

In your example, the ranks both members have reached are the Corporal’s trade and Captain’s occupation minimum OFP (Operational Functional Point), where they can work with minimum supervision. Any promotion above those ranks is merit and competition based. 

Some members are content to remain at a certain rank, while others wish to achieve higher goals. There is usually additional training as you advance in ranks and an increase in pay and benefits. There are drawbacks with promotions: time away from family, less time actually performing the job you signed up for are common themes.

This is a quick simplified summary on why your two examples are where they are at.


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## AshleyMarie34 (24 May 2019)

Thank you kilted, Kratz  and pusser!


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## dangerboy (24 May 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> I know of a member who has been in for close to 20 years and is still in corporal rank.



There is also no shame with being a Cpl, there are a lot of hard working, good soldiers (aviators, sailors) that don't want to be in a leadership position (and all the encompasses) so the chose to remain as a Cpl (or LS for the Navy).


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## 211RadOp (24 May 2019)

There are also people who do not want to move up the ladder.  Some technicians may want to stay at the Cpl level so they can keep there hands on the work, rather than the paper work.

Also, if they changed trades once or twice, it could be the reason.  Each time your change your occupation voluntarily you revert to Cpl.


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## AshleyMarie34 (24 May 2019)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> There is also no shame with being a Cpl, there are a lot of hard working, good soldiers (aviators, sailors) that don't want to be in a leadership position (and all the encompasses) so the chose to remain as a Cpl (or LS for the Navy).



No shame being casted, especially to anyone here in a similar situation. I was just trying to understand how that all worked out!


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## FSTO (24 May 2019)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> There is also no shame with being a Cpl, there are a lot of hard working, good soldiers (aviators, sailors) that don't want to be in a leadership position (and all the encompasses) so the chose to remain as a Cpl (or LS for the Navy).



We had a killick Bosn in PRO who was fitted equipment! Refused all promotions and postings and since he had pretty much seen every port in the Pacific he was always willing to be the ships driver and or take a person's duty watch while alongside. 

Translation - Leading Seaman Boatswain (Boatswain trade are your classic sailors) in HMCS PROTECTEUR (AOR 509) who had been in that ship so long he was like a piece of essential machinery.


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