# Civilian Police Officers Joining Reserves



## ScottH (28 Jul 2009)

Hello,

I have been looking at joining the reserves but I have come into some problems when it comes to scheduling my BMQ due to the change of getting hired and having to attend OPC during the summer months.

For me policing is my first choice however I feel that the reserves would something good to work towards to better myself.

Is there anyone on this forum that could perhaps share their experiences of working as a police officer and a reservist (Peel specifically)?
How hard is it for scheduling courses?
Do services work at giving you time off for military service (Specifically Peel)?

ScottH


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## Spanky (28 Jul 2009)

You should be able to take a weekend BMQ during the fall/winter that might better suit your situation.  There are a number of police officers here that can give more specific insight.  Zipperhead_cop?


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## mpitts (28 Jul 2009)

Scotth,

Flip me a PM when you get a chance, I haven't been involved with the reserves in many years but quite a few guys in my office have and still are.  What ever I can't answer I will ask them.  And yes we can specifically answer for Peel....if your already on the job flip me an email at work...badge 2087.


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## dapaterson (28 Jul 2009)

There are many civilain police in the Reserves across Canada; many police forces are supportive of their officers serving.  Indeed, there's at least one Reserve Brigadier General with an extensive policing background.


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## my72jeep (28 Jul 2009)

The CO of the Sudbury Irish is a OPP Sgt.


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2009)

I am not a member of law enforcement, but I would like to offer my opinion, if I may.
First, let me congratulate on your decision to join the police and the CF. 
Your full-time job comes first. Graduate OPC, finish your probation, then start BMQ. The corporation or department you work for will most certainly have an HR policy re: military service. As a new P.C., you will likely be on shift work. With some co-operation from your force/service, you should be able to make the occasional shift change. 
Your employer will likely look upon an accommodation most favourably if your CF trade is police related.


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## ScottH (29 Jul 2009)

For me policing is the first priority but it would be nice to start on the BMQ while I still have some times. 
Right now its the 3rd summer course that doesnt cooperate with my schedule.


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## mpitts (30 Jul 2009)

mariomike

your comments are bang on !!


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## mariomike (30 Jul 2009)

Thanks, mpitts. As a Police Officer, would you not agree that military service is well regarded by any force?
I know for a fact that army "Bisons" helped to save lives in Toronto during the snow storm ten years ago.

Edited for spelling.


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## ScottH (30 Jul 2009)

That is the route I am planing on going 

Thanks for the help


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Aug 2009)

Support to the Reserves varies from force to force.  Our Department is very supportive and made great efforts to facilitate two of us going overseas to Afghanistan, which for me included the ridonkulous 8 month work up.  I was on tour with a guy from Peel and I believe they are fairly supportive.  There was a time when PRPS was nicknamed "5 RCR" due to their high recruiting of military personnel.  
Now, that being said, things came together for the big deal tour stuff, but in my experience falls short where time off for exercises and courses comes.  Most guys have to blow their annual furlough in order to facilitate enough time off.  My Department does not yet have a short term leave policy in place.  For us, interfacing with the military is actually rather new.  Other places, like Toronto or the OPP where they are so much bigger, may have a better handle on how it works.  
Personally, once I got into policing maintaining a good standing with my Unit was tough.  It always seemed that training weekends fell on scheduled shifts and you can only ask for so many weekends off before dudes start getting bent that you are never around.  So if you are in a leadership position (which you eventually be hopefully) you are left with a tough situation of being in a less dynamic, non-field role.  Which is okay, but some people are less inclined towards the admin end of the military and prefer life at the pointy end.  
Overall, I would suggest that you continue to put your police career first but keep with the reserves.  Someday (well, actually seven years from now) you might want to go on a CIVPOL tour and then you'll be getting a shot at the best of both the military and police worlds.  Just be straight up with your CoC at whatever unit you end up in about how much time you do or don't have.  Chances are you won't be the first LEO that they have had in their ranks and they will be familiar with rotating shifts and whatnot.  
Good luck in both your blue and green pursuits!


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## mariomike (2 Aug 2009)

Things have improved tremendously from when I was in the militia. We received no support. In fact, I prefer not to say how mean spirited Metro actually was on the subject.
I know that, at a minimum, all City of Toronto employees - TPS included - receive: "Leave of absence granted to employees to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces during hostilities, peacekeeping missions, or during a time of war. Seniority will continue to accumulate."
In addition, "Employees can take a leave of absence with pay, for the two week period of absence, to attend the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve Training Program. Employees are paid their regular pay provided they submit any compensation received for military service to the city treasurer, unless this compensation is paid for *days they are not scheduled to work*. Compensation received for travelling expenses and meal allowance does not have to be returned to the city. All benefits continue during the leave. An employee's service is not affected by the leave. An employee's vacation entitlement, and pension credit do not change."
My interpretation of the bold highlight is that if on a 12 or 24 hour shift, you only work 20 or 10 days every six weeks. It looks like you can keep any pay for "days not scheduled to work".
Things have improved tremendously since the 1970's.


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## The_Falcon (19 Aug 2009)

Don't forget there is now provinical legislation in regards reservists/time off, if da bosses give you a hard time thats what associations are for.


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## zipperhead_cop (27 Aug 2009)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Don't forget there is now provinical legislation in regards reservists/time off, if da bosses give you a hard time thats what associations are for.



Which doesn't apply to essential services as far as I know.  Best go with the honey instead of the vinegar.


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## The_Falcon (28 Aug 2009)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Which doesn't apply to essential services as far as I know.  Best go with the honey instead of the vinegar.



Just checked, it singles out police (not all essential services)    Thats kinda crappy.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> What is disappointing disgusting, is that I don't think military service gets much credit anymore from the recruiters in police, fire and EMS departments. That's big change I noticed.



Like other organizations, it depends on what location you are at.  Some Services are strongly "pro" military, while others are strongly "anti" military.


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## mariomike (28 Aug 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Like other organizations, it depends on what location you are at.  Some Services are strongly "pro" military, while others are strongly "anti" military.



I think I saw the pendulum swing from one side to the other where I worked. Perhaps my original post was too strongly worded, but I noticed along with that change came a gradual slip in discipline that had become quite noticeable by the time I retired. I say "discipline" for lack of a better word. It was a sad decline in respect for the job.


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## Smity199 (28 Aug 2009)

I think it would be cool if Police Officers were MP's in the reserves, but in case of a crisis or natural disaster which would he or she have to oblige to?


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## Greymatters (28 Aug 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Like other organizations, it depends on what location you are at.  Some Services are strongly "pro" military, while others are strongly "anti" military.



There are organizational cultures at work, but also personal biases there - like any other sector in Canada, some police officers like and respect the military, and some do not.  

_Edit - George Wallace, I recall you speaking on this same topic in a different thread - was it earlier this year or end of last year?  _


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## mariomike (28 Aug 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> There are organizational cultures at work, but also personal biases there - like any other sector in Canada, some police officers like and respect the military, and some do not.



Fred Topham V.C. became a Toronto policeman after the war. But they insisted he be a "greeter" at City Hall. He quit - I think before his first shift, and went to work for Toronto Hydro. A very modest local man. I see by his obituary that he lived VERY close to me, but I hadn't heard of him.  He died suddenly on 31 May 1974. I think he was accidentally killed on the job at Toronto Hydro, but I'm not sure.
There is a story about his brief police career in the bottom left corner:
http://img93.imageshack.us/i/topham.pdf/

"After the war, Topham joined the Toronto police force but was prevented from pounding the beat. Friends and family say the chief insisted Topham wear his Victoria Cross and welcome tourists. Devastated, Topham quit the force immediately without having served a day.
A fellow veteran got him a job as a linesman with Toronto hydro. He died from electrical burns following an accident on the job in August 1974."
The date does not match the obituary. The Star reports he passed away on 31 May 1974. It's also on his marker at Sanctuary Park Cemetery. 
 Cause of death was not reported.
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/plocal/CTVNews/20041108/victoria_cross041108/20041108/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome


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## mariomike (28 Aug 2009)

Smity199 said:
			
		

> I think it would be cool if Police Officers were MP's in the reserves, but in case of a crisis or natural disaster which would he or she have to oblige to?



Smity, I know Paramedics who are in the reserves, and love it. But, for some, the last job they want is Med Tech. They want the Armour Corps and Infantry and trucking or cooking because it's different from what they do full time. I suspect many Police Officers would feel the same way.


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## Smity199 (29 Aug 2009)

yeah good point, It would probably be alot more enjoyable to do something different from your day job on the weekends.. One of my brother friends retired from the Regs when he was like 35 or something and he became a police officer and has now just applied to get into the reserves


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## gcclarke (4 Sep 2009)

Smity199 said:
			
		

> I think it would be cool if Police Officers were MP's in the reserves, but in case of a crisis or natural disaster which would he or she have to oblige to?



I was actually told by one of the reserve LogOs that we have here, who is also with the O.P.P. that there is some regulation that prevents someone from being a police officer on two separate forces simultaneously. I am unsure if it is a Federal, or Provincial policy, or merely either CF or O.P.P. policy. 

The answer was in response to my question as to why she remustered Logistics rather than MPO.


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## mariomike (6 Sep 2009)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I was actually told by one of the reserve LogOs that we have here, who is also with the O.P.P. that there is some regulation that prevents someone from being a police officer on two separate forces simultaneously. I am unsure if it is a Federal, or Provincial policy, or merely either CF or O.P.P. policy.



It's called "Two-Hatting". ie: Full-time emergency services members working part-time ( or as paid "volunteers" ) for other municipalities:
http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/1331/213/
I have never heard of a problem regarding working your trade in the CF as a reservist.


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## Scott (6 Sep 2009)

mariomike, I believe, and I stand to be corrected by any of the LEO's here, that the difference among the cops is that they could easily find themselves conflicted if they were to serve as police officers in another organization/role. I further believe that the "two hatter" debate as you've quoted in your article represents firefighters alone as I have never before heard of the medics or the cops being rung up for this sort of thing. As well, the two hatter thing as it relates to firefighters is much a union thing, not a force stating that it's not on for I have never heard of that but am more than willing to hear it if someone has some dirt

As far as fire goes it is a complex and heated subject as one can see just by skimming the quoted article. I have my opinions for both sides and can see where both sides are coming from having served as both a paid and volunteer firefighter and having done both at the same time (though not a "two hatter" by the OPFFA's definition as my job was not union)

I could dish a lengthy and prepared document summing up my thoughts on the two hatter debate but it would add nothing to the thread.


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## mariomike (6 Sep 2009)

Scott said:
			
		

> mariomike, I believe, and I stand to be corrected by any of the LEO's here, that the difference among the cops is that they could easily find themselves conflicted if they were to serve as police officers in another organization/role. I further believe that the "two hatter" debate as you've quoted in your article represents firefighters alone as I have never before heard of the medics or the cops being rung up for this sort of thing. As well, the two hatter thing as it relates to firefighters is much a union thing, not a force stating that it's not on for I have never heard of that but am more than willing to hear it if someone has some dirt
> 
> As far as fire goes it is a complex and heated subject as one can see just by skimming the quoted article. I have my opinions for both sides and can see where both sides are coming from having served as both a paid and volunteer firefighter and having done both at the same time (though not a "two hatter" by the OPFFA's definition as my job was not union)
> 
> I could dish a lengthy and prepared document summing up my thoughts on the two hatter debate but it would add nothing to the thread.



Hello Scott. How are you? 
I think Metro Police has members serving as MP reservists. If you look at page 11 of this pdf:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/d43/20060616-d43_community_informer.pdf


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## Scott (6 Sep 2009)

Good on the force and their members then! Thanks for the link.

All is well here. Good rescue a couple of weeks ago that I was part of which makes things worth doing.


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## mariomike (6 Sep 2009)

Scott said:
			
		

> Good rescue a couple of weeks ago that I was part of which makes things worth doing.



I would like to read about that sometime, Scott. If you find the time. Goodness knows, I have plenty of that now. 
I like to monitor TFD sometimes. To see if there's any worth checking out in my neighbourhood. Isn't that pathetic? hahaha:
http://www.toronto.ca/fire/cadinfo/livecad.htm


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## noneck (9 Sep 2009)

I worked on changing the CF QR&O's and RCMP Act so that RCMP members could serve in the PRes. Once the rules were ammended, the only trade that was prohibited was the MP trade either as an Officer or OR. There is a caveat in the RCMP Act that a member cannot serve as a sworn Peace Officer in another organization.

Now as I understand it, this is a moot point as all but AF PRes MP's are not badge carrying sworn Peace Officers. I guess it may come down to perception and the word "Police".

But as someone already pointed out, why would I want to do my day job again in the MO?

Noneck


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2009)

I am sure it boils down to one thing and one thing only:  In an Emergency when the military is called out to Aid in the Civil Power, a Peace Officer can not be in two places at the same time, wearing two different uniforms.  (S)He either goes as a Police officer or a Reservist,  but not both.

I am sure, in the eyes of the municipality/province/nation, it is more important that (s)he perform his/her duties as a member of the police force, and be exempted CF duties, than the other way around.


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## Dissident (9 Sep 2009)

We have had at our platoon (and other platoons currently have) municipal police officers amongst its ranks.

The job of a reserve MP is sufficiently different from typical policing that I doubt someone would get bored.


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## mariomike (9 Sep 2009)

noneck said:
			
		

> But as someone already pointed out, why would I want to do my day job again in the MO?



Financially, it makes little no sense to refuse overtime, Paid Duty and Stat Holiday shifts from your career department to work elsewhere in the same, or similar, job classification.


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## darcy175 (13 Sep 2009)

I see im a little late to the initial post, however, im a member of the reseves in addition to being a full time police officer. it works for me, and i do what i can with my unit, but my priority is to my career as a police officer. My service, refered to above as 5 RCR, is very accomodating when it comes to current military members who are among its ranks. so much so, that we have an internal policy that allows members to take additional time off to serve with your unit (both weekend ex's, or deploying overseas).


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## noneck (14 Sep 2009)

Tyrus you bring up a very good point re: Police Service CF leave policies. I would like to see a definitive leave policy for PRes CF Members in the RCMP developed. 

Could those folks that are members of other PS send me a copy of their outfit's leave policies by PM? If this doesn't work give me a shout via PM and i'll give you my address on ROSS.

So far one of the best policies is that of the City of Calgary. They top up all of their city employees wages while they are on work up and deployed....pretty kick ***!


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## Bob Fisher (23 Oct 2009)

I have applied to a reserve infantry unit, and I am also considering applying to Toronto Police Services for my full-time career. Does anyone know if one may pursue both careers simultaneously? That is, does TPS allow time off for courses etc.?
Thank you


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## George Wallace (23 Oct 2009)

Bob Fisher said:
			
		

> I have applied to a reserve infantry unit, and I am also considering applying to Toronto Police Services for my full-time career. Does anyone know if one may pursue both careers simultaneously? That is, does TPS allow time off for courses etc.?
> Thank you



Yes you can do both.  At the same time, you may not be able to.  You are planning on joining both at the same time, and the demands on training time for both may conflict.   Perhaps you may want to become established as a Constable first and then try joining the Reserves.

There are many Toronto Police officers in the Reserves.


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## AC 011 (23 Oct 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ...   Perhaps you may want to become established as a Constable first and then try joining the Reserves.



Bob.  That's the best advice if you're going to do both.  I have several friends in the reserves who are also members of their local police forces (London, Ottawa, Toronto, RCMP) and AFAIK they have all had to take time off from one to complete training with the other.  It seems to work out quite well for all of them, but joining both at the same time would be asking for trouble.

 :2c:


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## mariomike (23 Oct 2009)

Bob Fisher said:
			
		

> That is, does TPS allow time off for courses etc.?



Hello Bob. You may find this thread of interest:
[merged the two threads]
Good luck with "Metro's Finest"!


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## Bob Fisher (23 Oct 2009)

Thanks for the advice, and that thread is indeed very helpful!
The only difference with me is that I already have my BMQ from a short stint in the reg force. Thus, I was told that I could get both my SQ and QL3 next summer once re-enrolled.
So in my case, perhaps I should do those courses, get my chevron, then try for TPS?


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## noneck (24 Oct 2009)

I am both a member of the the PRes and a RCMP member. In the PRes I am currently the Depot Pl WO at my unit and have two soldiers currently going through as police recruits and military recruits.....it's very hard to commit to both. They are both now on ED&T until they finish their RFT. It will also be hard for them as junior coppers to get prime leave off in the Summer to go away for 4-8 weeks on PRes training, without rocking the boat!

I am in no way saying put off your policing career for the MO,  but my advice is to get as much PRes training out of the way while you go through the process with TPS. If it takes 6 months to a year or so to get on with the police then that's time that you can devote to the MO. Your MO time will set you up with some great examples for your interview and will also enhance your application. 

PM me if you want to discuss it further.


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## mariomike (24 Oct 2009)

Bob Fisher said:
			
		

> perhaps I should do those courses, get my chevron, then try for TPS?



It might not hurt to drop your application off, Bob. I don't know how fast they process them. You will like love their new College:
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/article/81006--etobicoke-new-police-college-opens-next-week
By the way, it says they are re-locating the Toronto Scottish there from Fort York Armoury. How's that for convenience!
"The Department of National Defence (DND) opens its new armoury for the Toronto Scottish Regiment on the property Sept. 12. DND funded $15-million of the facility's $75-million pricetag."


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## zipperhead_cop (24 Oct 2009)

noneck said:
			
		

> So far one of the best policies is that of the City of Calgary. They top up all of their city employees wages while they are on work up and deployed....pretty kick ***!



We have been working on our short term leave policy with limited success.  You won't find a better arrangement in Canada than what CPS offers for its members.  



			
				Bob Fisher said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice, and that thread is indeed very helpful!
> The only difference with me is that I already have my BMQ from a short stint in the reg force. Thus, I was told that I could get both my SQ and QL3 next summer once re-enrolled.
> So in my case, perhaps I should do those courses, get my chevron, then try for TPS?



If you haven't started the process with Toronto and are on course for sure, you might want to wait.  But if you can get on TPS or anywhere for that matter, definitely do that.  The Army isn't going anywhere and you can pick up those courses at any point.


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## Rheostatic (25 Oct 2009)

Without naming anyone, I do know at least one Res MP who is a fill-time member of a civilian police force, and they were very supportive of his military activities. For example, topping up his salary while he's on army courses.


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## mariomike (25 Oct 2009)

Bob Fisher said:
			
		

> I have applied to a reserve infantry unit, and I am also considering applying to Toronto Police Services for my full-time career. Does anyone know if one may pursue both careers simultaneously? That is, does TPS allow time off for courses etc.?



Bob, it's too late to add this in my reply to you. 
In Toronto, "Military Leave Policy" makes no distinction as to what work you do for the City. That is, whether you are a Police Officer, or a Marine Steam Engineer, or an Arena-Pool Operator, it makes no difference. All City employees are covered by the same Policy, which comes down from the Corporate level. 
The only limitation is if a manager - of _any_ Job Classification - cannot spare you for Military Leave. For example, if too many members request Leave at the same time, either by plan or coincidence. You can't put an unreasonable burden on your manager to accommodate. With the City, seniority is most often the deciding factor in such cases. It also helps if your City job is comparable to your Reserve job. eg: A Heavy Equipment Operator HEO compares to an MSE Op. A Police Officer to an MP. The skill sets and experience you acquire will be a win-win for both employers, and will likely enhance your promotional opportunities. 
On the other hand, employees who constantly request scheduling considerations, for whatever good reasons, are sooner or later considered to be "high maintenance" aka "administrative burden" by even the most tolerant manager. 
Not to be pessimistic, but the way Toronto is headed, I would think that TPS members with MP and Intelligence connections would be considered "valuable assets" by the Mayor's Office. 

Incidentally, I stumbled across a site. I don't know it, and don't vouch for it. 
FYI, if interested:
http://civiside.com/browse/job/60
http://civiside.com/press
"This site is not an official DND site."


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## bolt (28 Feb 2011)

It's been a while since the last post here, but the information was good so I chose not to start a new thread. 
I'm looking for information on current policies for Ontario Police Services especially that deal with military leave. 

I wouldn't mind seeing CPS policy as well since it seems to be the gold standard. I am currently a police officer myself, recently joined the reserves... So far it's a great combination and a feel blessed for the opportunity. My police force policies though are more 1970 than 2011 and I'm taking the initiative to draft 
some prospective changes. Pm's would be appreciated too. 

Ducimus.


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## mariomike (28 Feb 2011)

bolt said:
			
		

> I'm looking for information on current policies for Ontario Police Services especially that deal with military leave.



This is Corporate policy for The City of Toronto. It does not matter which Agency, Board, Commission, Department or Service you belong to, or what your job title is:
http://wx.toronto.ca/intra/hr/policies.nsf/9fff29b7237299b385256729004b844b/58a35e5368beb69e852567bd006d7e4b?OpenDocument




			
				bolt said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind seeing CPS policy as well since it seems to be the gold standard.



Calgary? If so, it is the first link on the page.
City of Calgary: "Military Leave for Reservists":
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=wnW&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=calgary+%22Military+Leave+for+Reservists%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=




			
				bolt said:
			
		

> My police force policies though are more 1970 than 2011 and I'm taking the initiative to draft
> some prospective changes.



In the 1970's, the city I worked for had no military leave policy. Military leave is relatively recent ( 1999 ).


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