# Royal Canadian Navy History Questions?



## Ex-SHAD (15 Mar 2010)

Having been recently contemplating rejoining the Navy, I have spent some time reading up on the history of the service (and yes though admittedly we all learnt the basic history of the service at both BMQ/OSUT & NETP) there never really was a whole lot of time spent on the Royal Canadian Navy, with a majority of the material being taught, was focused on the Post-Unification Forces. 
I’ve recently been wondering about a few things, and though there are some great reference sites out there, many of them are either solely dedicated to WW1/WW2 or to current naval operations etc. Fortunately though, in light of the Navy’s 100th Anniversary there has been a lot of high quality historical documents/publications released (including the Crowsnest through the Naval Heritage Project http://www.navy.gc.ca/project_pride/documents/documents_e.asp?section=2). 
Having now had the opportunity to skim through all the editions of the magazine, I have come up with a rather large battery of questions, and I hope that perhaps someone on this site might either be able to help me answer them.

Warrant Officers in the RCN: Now from what I’ve gathered, senior ratings(Chief Petty Officers, and later Chief Petty Officer 1st Class), in certain ratings such as the Quartermaster’s Branch(later the Boatswain’s Branch), the Regulating Branch, The Gunnery Branch etc. were eligible to become “Warrant Officers”. Now with that being said, did Warrant Officers in the RCN get issued a new rank badge. Also, at what point were Warrant Officers in the RCN abolished(I’m  assuming it was during Unification, or was it at some point sooner?), and thirdly did Warrant Officers share a mess with the Petty Officers/Chief Petty Officers, or were they assigned their own mess?

University Naval Training Division: I’m assuming that this program was abolished during “Unification”, but aside from that, what were the exact aims of the program? Was it simply a program to train officers for the Royal Canadian Navy Reserve (later titled the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve), or was it used as a Naval Officer placement program for students once they had completed their college degree?

Officer Classification Colors: Now at some point during 1960, the use of colors for the separate officer branches (Executive: Black, Engineering: Purple, Electrical Branch: Green, Medical Branch: Red, Wardmaster: Maroon, Supply Branch: White, Special Branch: Light Green, Constructor Branch: Grey, Instructor Branch: Light Blue, Ordinance Branch: Dark Blue, Civil Engineer Branch: Terracotta). Now were the color classifications phased out because of a move towards a more “Canadianized” Navy, or was there a more practical reason for this change?

Naval Provost: Unlike the Canadian Army ,and the Royal Canadian Air Force at no time did the RCN ever have service police, but instead relied upon the use of the divisional system, the Regulating Branch, Shore Patrols, the Master at Arms, and many other various institutions to maintain order and discipline. Now at some point in the 1960’s the Jaunty (Master at Arms), and the Regulating Branch were replaced by the Boatswain’s Branch, and members of the rating were assigned Patrol duties. Interestingly enough though, the Regulating Branch continued on in the Naval Reserve until “Unification”, while the Jaunty was also abolished in the RCNR. Now I was wondering, what sort of provost powers were allocated to members of the Boatswains Branch assigned to patrol duties? Was the position of Regulating Petty Officer in the Regular Navy, abolished when the rating was amalgamated? Though it was only a temporary establishment was the Naval Shore Patrol Service on the West Coast disestablished when the Regulating Branch ceased to exist?,  were Deputy Naval Provost Marshalls still in place when the Boatswain Branch took over provost duties? Also, at any point, did the Assistant Director of Naval Intelligence have any sort of Special Investigations Branch put in place, or did they simply stick to their role of ensuring security of Her Majesty’s Canadian Naval Establishments?

Combat Uniform and Bush Dress in the RCN: I have seen some photos in which personnel engaged in either naval landing training, or other activities which required them to be in the field, wearing either the Bush Dress Uniform, or later on the combat uniform. It seems that when said uniforms were worn, that RCN Rank and Rating badges were worn(the rank and rating badges being of the “blue” variety, while officers wore their RCN rank badges on the uniform’s epaulets). Now bearing in mind, that according the last BRCN published on the wearing of rate/rank badges on “working clothes” that only red badges were to be worn, was there an exception to this rule when it came to combat clothing, or was this simply a dress regulation at the unit level? Also, it appears that the MK II Helmet was still worn by the Navy, especially by the Naval Reserve into the late 60’s, though oddly enough the M1 helmet had replaced the Mark II in the Army (and I believe the RCAF as well). Did the RCN ever adopt the M1, or was it issued following “Unification”? Finally, it seems that the naval pattern battledress uniform (in the traditional navy blue color) was worn during both shore parties, in the field and in conjunction with naval aviation (for ratings red badges were worn, and for officers epaulets attached), now at what point did the navy cease issuing naval battledress?

“Naval Blue” berets in the RCN: It seems at least from photographic evidence, that officers involved in naval aviation, and aviation maintainer ratings wore a “naval blue beret”. Now was this practice solely the privilege of naval aviators/aircrew or was the beret also worn by other ratings/officers?


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## Monsoon (15 Mar 2010)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> University Naval Training Division: I’m assuming that this program was abolished during “Unification”, but aside from that, what were the exact aims of the program? Was it simply a program to train officers for the Royal Canadian Navy Reserve (later titled the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve), or was it used as a Naval Officer placement program for students once they had completed their college degree?


As I understand it (and I have only salty old yarns told in the wardroom in the wee hours of the morning to go by), the UNTD was more or less distinct from the Naval Reserve Division it was lodged in. UNTDs may have been classified as reservists for the duration of their schooling, but it seems the purpose of the program was to offer the most promising candidates positions in the regular or reserve force upon graduation. The goal was to train more officers than the Navy needed and to quietly let go the less promising chaps by simply not offering them a spot at the end of the day. It seems to have been a combination of today's RESO training (for the reserves) and civie U ROTP (for the regular force).

I was under the impression that it persisted post-unification, but I could be mistaken about that.


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## Hawk (15 Mar 2010)

Perhaps an interesting aside for you: the rest of us called UNTD's  "Untidies". No reason - their uniform and bearing were impeccable! They did an interesting and complicated dance-like step to change step. When I was in "Beautiful Cornwallis by the Sea"  the Untidies thought they should rate a salute -  NOT! and were rather bitter that no one would indulge them. On the other hand, that summer there were Sea Cadets and Navy League in Cornwallis for summer training, too, and someone told them all the women on the base were officers - and they saluted us. We, of course weren't the ones to dissolution the kiddies, most of whom had more time-in than we did!


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## Oldgateboatdriver (15 Mar 2010)

The pre-unification UNTD's were exactly that: University training. They were enrolled as "reserve" officers for administrative reasons, but the "division" at which they trained was on campus for most of the training, with visits only at actual NRD's for specific training days. The purpose was to produce a body of junior officers in case of war, in view of the expansion problems encountered in WWII.

Upon graduation from university, they were commissioned and had three choices: leave the service, join the permanent force or enrol in a reserve unit. This was not the only entry route for reserve or permanent officers to enter the service: direct entry was possible in both cases.


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## Acer Syrup (15 Mar 2010)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> Naval Provost: Unlike the Canadian Army ,and the Royal Canadian Air Force at no time did the RCN ever have service police, but instead relied upon the use of the divisional system, the Regulating Branch, Shore Patrols, the Master at Arms, and many other various institutions to maintain order and discipline. Now at some point in the 1960’s the Jaunty (Master at Arms), and the Regulating Branch were replaced by the Boatswain’s Branch, and members of the rating were assigned Patrol duties. Interestingly enough though, the Regulating Branch continued on in the Naval Reserve until “Unification”, while the Jaunty was also abolished in the RCNR. Now I was wondering, what sort of provost powers were allocated to members of the Boatswains Branch assigned to patrol duties? Was the position of Regulating Petty Officer in the Regular Navy, abolished when the rating was amalgamated? Though it was only a temporary establishment was the Naval Shore Patrol Service on the West Coast disestablished when the Regulating Branch ceased to exist?,  were Deputy Naval Provost Marshalls still in place when the Boatswain Branch took over provost duties? Also, at any point, did the Assistant Director of Naval Intelligence have any sort of Special Investigations Branch put in place, or did they simply stick to their role of ensuring security of Her Majesty’s Canadian Naval Establishments?



Just some more 411 I found

http://mpmuseum.org/rcn.html


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## Blackadder1916 (15 Mar 2010)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> Warrant Officers in the RCN: Now from what I’ve gathered, senior ratings(Chief Petty Officers, and later Chief Petty Officer 1st Class), in certain ratings such as the Quartermaster’s Branch(later the Boatswain’s Branch), the Regulating Branch, The Gunnery Branch etc. were eligible to become “Warrant Officers”. Now with that being said, did Warrant Officers in the RCN get issued a new rank badge. Also, at what point were Warrant Officers in the RCN abolished(I’m  assuming it was during Unification, or was it at some point sooner?), and thirdly did Warrant Officers share a mess with the Petty Officers/Chief Petty Officers, or were they assigned their own mess?



RCN Warrant Officers were "officers" not rankers.  They wore officers' uniforms, with rank braid similar to either Sub-Lieutenant or Midshipman (depending on their rank - Commissioned Warrant Officer _(also called a 'skipper')_ or Warrant Officer); they were saluted by those junior to them; and they belonged to the wardroom.

The easy way to describe them is to compare them to today's "CFR officers".  The Canadian Army and, somewhat similarly, the RCAF handled commissioning from the ranks (CFR) differently from the RCN.  There was probably still a bit of a social difference mentality in the navy not granting commissions to deserving lower deckers.  For an interesting read about RN warrant officers, try these  THE ROYAL NAVY WARRANT OFFICER PART ONE, THE ROYAL NAVY WARRANT OFFICER PART TWO, and THE ROYAL NAVY WARRANT OFFICER PART THREE.

From what I understand (and most of my knowledge is from conversations years ago with a former Warrant Wardmaster - later Lt-Cmdr) the ranks of Commissioned Officer and Warrant Officer were still on the RCN books until legislation amended the NDA and reorganized the three services.  However in practical terms by the early 60s, navy other ranks were more likely to be “commissioned” rather than given a warrant.

Some photos from the 1960s with at least one Commissioned Officer present (wearing a single stripe).  Click photo to open in full size.

1960




1964




And an explanation from the same site.
http://www.jproc.ca/rrp/glo_people1.html



> FOOTNOTES
> [1] Ray White offers this explanation about the rank. "CmdO(SB) was the abbreviation for Commissioned Officer (Special Branch). In referring to these officers, the term "Mister" was used. This was the rank usually given to Chief Petty Officers in the Communicator Supplementary branch when they were commissioned from the ranks. I say "usually" because I cannot recall any CmdO's who had been commissioned from the rank of Petty Officer.
> The rank insignia was a single ring and, in the early days before the colours showing the officer branches were abolished, the Special Branch officers wore dark green beside the gold ring. Executive Officers were the only Officer group who did not have a distinguishing colour and after the colours were abolished, all officers were indistinguishable with regard to branch. I recall when I was on New Entry Training (the official term for basic training or boot camp in 1951) the Divisional Officer in our division was a Commissioned Radio Officer (CmdO(R) but I can't recall the distinguishing colour worn.
> In our branch there was messdeck discussion about why someone who had risen to the top as a Chief, would accept a commission and go to the very bottom of the pecking order. But the feeling was that a CmdO in any branch was generally considered much more experienced than most Lieutenants and of course, all sub-lieutenants, and was treated as such, especially by senior officers".


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## Pat in Halifax (16 Mar 2010)

I still vaguely recall bits and pieces from an incident that occurred when I was on the Fire Field at DC Div in the late 90s. VDQ was out for the old DCOT (SBT Trg) and a PO2 stoker had been commissioned on board that morning under what 'program', I do not know. We were directed by both School staff and the ship's XO to refer to him as "Commissioned Officer XXXX" or "Mister XXXX" when addressing him. When I chuckled at this little game I assumed was being played out, an old Naval Chief FF we had on staff took me aside and told me this was all legit. Unfortunately, I never followed up on any of this and though I went through METTP with the individual in the early 80s, he released several years ago so is no longer around to ask about it.
This would have been around '96-'97 and the individual's first name was Marc (If any one was with VDQ then and recalls this)


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## FDO (16 Mar 2010)

The reason we called them "Commissioned Officer" is because they usually came in at the Subbie or A/Subbie rank and it would have been an insult to call them S/Lt as they were thought to be more senior. I had a couple on one of the ships I sailed on. They CRF'd from the Bunting Tosser trade. One was a LS one was a P2 before they moved "up" They were all Subbies in my book!


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## Lex Parsimoniae (16 Mar 2010)

FDO said:
			
		

> The reason we called them "Commissioned Officer" is because they usually came in at the Subbie or A/Subbie rank and it would have been an insult to call them S/Lt as they were thought to be more senior. I had a couple on one of the ships I sailed on. They CRF'd from the Bunting Tosser trade. One was a LS one was a P2 before they moved "up" They were all Subbies in my book!


I went through NOTC with a Commissioned Officer* who was a former PO1.  It was explained to us the same way however we were told that it only applied to CFR from PO1 and above.

*This individual just reached 42 years of service - BZ!  http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/navy_images/navres_images/eye/Link_oct09_ang_low.pdf


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## Oldgateboatdriver (17 Mar 2010)

Commissioned Officers and the current RN Warrant Officers are not to be confused.

I have served with my share of PO's and CPO's who accepted to be CFR'd and to a man (and one woman) they insisted on being called Commissioned Officers instead of LT. This was perfectly appropriate and it used to be that way in the RCN and also in the RN until the 1950's. Since then, RN's other rank who take a commission come in and are referred to as SLT's or LTs according to the circumstances.

The current RN "warrant officers" 1st and 2nd class, correspond to our own CPO's 1st and 2nd class, as both are classified as equal under the NATO Rank equivalence system: RN's W1 and Canada's CPO1 are OR-9, while the W2 and CPO2 are OR-8. You have to remember that before the last modification to the RN other rank structure in the 50's, their other rank only had four levels: OS/AB, LS, PO and CPO. Their PO and CPO ranks did not have a first/second class distinction as we had in the RCN. The review that led to the modification of the 50's was a result in great part of the Invergordon Mutiny, which led amongst other things and after a cooling off period to the review of rank structure in the more modern and technological WWII and post WWII era to bring it more in line with the level of responsibilities and trade knowledge now required of the other ranks.


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## Pusser (21 Mar 2010)

"Distinction cloth" (the coloured "lights") worn between officers' rank stripes were discontinued in both the RN and RCN around the same time.  As I understand it, it had more to do with running out of distinctive colours than anything else.  As more and more specialist classifications were being introduced into the modern navy, it became difficult to find new colours that were distinguishable from the others.  As a result, many occupations were relegated to light green and it was finally decided to dispense with the system altogether (except for medical officers) because it had gotten too complicated.


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## ModlrMike (22 Mar 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> "Distinction cloth" (the coloured "lights") worn between officers' rank stripes were discontinued in both the RN and RCN around the same time.  As I understand it, it had more to do with running out of distinctive colours than anything else.  As more and more specialist classifications were being introduced into the modern navy, it became difficult to find new colours that were distinguishable from the others.  As a result, many occupations were relegated to light green and it was finally decided to dispense with the system altogether (except for medical officers) because it had gotten too complicated.



More specifically, Medical Officers wear scarlet, and other Medical Branch officers wear dull cherry (AKA sanguine).


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## LSWU (17 Apr 2010)

I remember MO's of the Naval type having the maroon stripe right up to unification.


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