# Reserve QL2 & QL3 (the old basic traininig)



## Cdntroop (30 May 2001)

What is with all these changes to the courses?I recently taught on a QL2 and almost fell out of my chair when they told me I was only going to be needed for 16 days (a total of 5 weekends and a week-long excercise).  Why the change?  It‘s the worst thing to do to new recruits.... All it is doing is cheating them out of training that could quite possibly save their lives, but those penny pinchers in Ottawa always looking for a way to save a buck have decided.... you know what screw the reserves let‘s give them the worst equipment and on top of that lets give them no way to properly train their soldiers.   Just so that in the end they can say we told you so... the reserves can‘t do the job.  I think the CF is going to have to take a long hard look at what they‘re doing.... this is the army not the boy scouts.... the only way to get properly trained soldiers is to provide the equipment required and a proper amount of time to learn the material.


----------



## Grunt031 (31 May 2001)

What ever happened to basic training being an "indoctrination" or a "rebuilding" process that really challenged the recruit and made them see things in themselves they never could before.
Now it seems to be towards giving a recruit a little instruction on drill and hes institutionalized into the military.


----------



## the patriot (31 May 2001)

I think it has more to do with the "politically correct" doctrine of let everyone and their mother‘s uncle join the military.  Like the police, we‘ll soon have disabled people allowed in military uniform as a "milestone" (do not take offense, this was meant in jest and the reality is this might actually happen down the road).  Bloggins, take that position with your wheelchair (puts a new meaning to mounted light infantry) and at 100 metres clear the trench!!!!  If you fall in, maintain effective fire and clear the enemy section.  We‘ll give you the Victoria Cross posthumously.

Furthermore, if basic training is for 16 days, what on earth did they do to the infantry course?!  What have they done to it?!

-the patriot-    :fifty: 

[ 31 May 2001: Message edited by: the patriot ]


----------



## bender (31 May 2001)

I just finnished up my long hard 16 day QL2 course a couple weeks ago. First experience in the military and i was expecting a hell of alot more than it was. I didn‘t find the course that hard actually. I was expecting the course to be demanding and come out feeling ready for QL3. Then again maybe QL3 is just as soft these days!


Our course did get a little extra training where we were put into another platoon as the third section. The plattoon we were put into was on the old, longer (better) course which gave us some oppertunities to hop in and get a little extra training. 

If anyone knows what state the QL3 infantry course is in could you drop me a line? Thanks

  :mg:


----------



## Se7eN (31 May 2001)

I believe that the QL3 course is 6or7 weeks long.


  :mg:                  :fifty:


----------



## RCA (31 May 2001)

This is a debate that has been going on for a long time. It has nothing to do with penny pinching or political correctness.

We in the reserves are facing the basic dilemma of not enough trained people on the floor. So QL2/3 have been made to fit into a one summer period, so we can have a trained, usable soldiers for fall training. It is the classic quanatity over quality. (as an aside the reasoning for a QL3 trg soldier is beacuse of policy a QL2 is almost unuserable in a meaniful role in the field with the unit.

We have discussed this on this forum before and everyone, and I mean everyone has an opinion on this. And here‘s the kicker, both sides are right. However this is the system we are faced with now.

My opinion is give the soldiers the basics now, and let the units develop them during collective trg. we concentrate to much on the individual and not enough on the collective (shades of the borg)

However if anyone has been following the threads on the LFRR board, these same questions are coming up and some of the powers that be are answering and it seems there is a plan afoot to revamp the entire reserve trg from Pte to Maj to make more streamline and unit friendly.


----------



## McG (31 May 2001)

Just got home from a few days in LFCATC Meaford.  The base change of command parade was held while I was out there, and at it the commander LFCA made a few comments to the nature of RCA‘s comments.  His emphasis is on quantity.  He had set the goal for the training center to double its output this year.

For those not farmiliar with this debate, I will quickly outline the two sides (but may do niether the justice they deserve as a result of my brevity).

Those who are Pro-Quantity belive that we must get people in the door and qualified to fill postions within their units as soon as possible.  If people cannot be placed into these positions and are forced to wait for months to a year in a holding Pl, we will loose them and a critticle mass within the reserves.  traditional course subject matter which is removed or reduced in the career courses will be made-up for at the home units

Pro-Quality proponents argue that units are not doing the lost training, nor do units have the time and reasources to conduct the training.  The results of quantity production, leave reserve units with a majority of substandard soldiers who cannot be brought up to expected standards of profficiency.  More time and reasources should be put into the individual soldiers at the start of thier careers so that they arrive at the units ready for collective training, and not as a burden requiring units to dedicate to individual trg.

I am in the pro-quality camp, however, either philosophy could be made to work depending on the approach taken.  I would also lend serious credibility to an argument which would suggest that pro-quantity would work best for large units with lots of resources, and pro-quality would work best for small units with fewer resources.

I gathered some information on a few other points raised here during my Meaford visit.  While up there I spoke with a training & development type officer and came across some information on the time length of the QL2.  As RCA stated, there reason for so much being cut from the course was to accomodate reserve unit requests for faster production of troops.  However, due to complaints about insufficient time, the QL2 course will be streched from 16 days to 20.  For this to fit the time table, the QL3 courses will be cut from 24 days to 20.  Some trade-off, eh?     

That is short term.  In the long term there is thought of adding a new course between what are currently QL2 and QL3.  Because the QL2 is a common basic for the CF and QL3 is trade specific basics, this new course would be common Land force basics and all militia would take it.  A large portion of this course would consist of support weapons and other subjects usually mentioned in the phrase "what ever happened to subject X that used to be taught on QL2?"  Usually Subject X is required for MLOC, such as the Carl G or the GPMG.  

Hopefully a basic Army course (QL2b ?) would also cover other subjects have never made it into the QL2 course.  One that comes to mind, as an Engineer, is basic mine awarness.


----------



## RCA (1 Jun 2001)

I have to make this brief because Domestic Niner and I are heading out of town shortly...

Little known fact. The QL2 is not owned by the Army but by the CF and is set up as an all services, all components course (one size fits all. with all that entails)

Up till 98-99 the reserve QL2 did a fine job in 30 days. It worked well for the Arty as we added the 21 day QL3 and we had at rades qual trooper in 51 days (1 summer)

However the Air and maybe even the Navy thought the QL2 didn‘t teach the proper items. Therefore in 98-99-00 we had the QL2 that still ran 30 days but dropped the extra items (ie C7, support weapons) and added the supply system, pay, leave allowances etc- but not SHARP, the one lecture that should be taught on basic as opposed to the unit). The missed lectures were moved to the QL3
 thereby lenghtning them making it impossible to get a trained soldier in one summer.

We now arrive at summer 2001. The units complained (with justification) that the QL2/3 now was too long. So we now have son of QL2- the 16 day wonder (haven‘t seen the CTP so can‘t comment). The 16 days is suppose to lead into the QL3 (combat arms at least.)[I‘m guessing this just aan interm crse]

However there maybe light at the end of the tunnel as mentioned in my last post with a revamped trg cycle.

So nobody gets me wrong in my quantity argument. I want a trained soldier at the end of one summer but that training must include everything taken in MLOC, drill (plenty of,) and a 13km ruck march. There is no reason that these can‘t not be accomplished in a summer period. And as to the no fail policy. There is no such thing. It is a preception that everyone promotes, but look in the CTP and it states the pass criteria. If someone bends the rules, it is not the systems fault. When I get my soldiers back from the ATCs, I want trained soldiers not a rabble (which is what you get if standards aren‘t met)

Thats all for now, everyone have a good weekend. (I know I will)


----------



## Cog (4 Jun 2001)

As I‘m just begining the recruitment process, I have to say I‘m pretty worried about this 16 day basic. That‘s just a little over 2 weeks, where it used to be a month or more. I‘m trying to figure out if these cut down courses are going to train me properly or not. I sure as heck don‘t want to sign on for something that may put me in a life-threatening situation, and won‘t even give me the training I need to survive. And since I‘m going infantry or combat engineer, the quality of training really worries me cause that puts me out front and toe to toe with the bad guys, where training means life.

I wonder if all these politicians and bean counters have any idea of what they‘re doing. They see numbers on paper, meaningless in their little insulated realities. They don‘t seem to realize that those numbers are crippling our fighting force, the very thing that makes their cushy comfortable lives possible. Someday, the Armed Forces may be needed again to protect this country or another, and good men and women will die so that penny-pinchers and politicians can live their fat, lazy lives in peace and security. It makes me sick. 

I‘ll quit before I get wound up for a rant, but it is disheartening to think that CF would give their lives for these people, and get nothing but animosity in return. Disheartening to say the least.

Later.


----------



## McG (8 Jun 2001)

Just some further details on the new element specific courses being developed to fit between the current QL2 and QL3‘s.  The new course will exist for both reserve and regular force soldiers.  These courses are being developed for all elements; there will be on for the Army, another for the Navy, and a third for the Airforce. In the Army, a soldier will be trained to MLOC (read "Warrior skills") level by the end of this new course.  

I see this as a move, which will (hopefully) reverse the trend of lower quality soldiers arriving at units and not having been trained in all the basic soldiering skills expected of them. If it works, it will satisfy my complaints.


----------



## Disturbance (8 Jun 2001)

This is copied from a thread I started at specialoperations.com. 
Towhey is one smart and well respected son of a bitch. He knows what the **** he is talking about.

"If you‘ve followed some of my posts on the LFRR board, then you know that I have argued strongly against "watering down" training for the reserves.

However, this discussion thread was started by someone about to join the CF Army Reserve as a new recruit. It isn‘t, I think, the right place to be arguing the value of what he/she is about to undergo. It will, no doubt, be more challenging than expected in many ways, and easier than feared in other ways. It always is and always was.

Note, that I argued about the "effectiveness" of the training in my last post. "Hard" and "difficult" are two very subjective terms. I‘ve taken, taught and written long courses and short courses. The long ones weren‘t necessarily the harder ones. Duration has little to do with "difficulty".

Likewise, quite frankly, the content of the course has little to do with challenge in many cases. Some people find an MBA very difficult, others do not. I did my "recruit" training in 1983. It was hell for me... others slept through the whole program. What I found difficult, others breezed through. What I didn‘t even notice, forced still others to quit.

Have standards declined in basic training courses? I think they have. Have they declined past a minimum necessary level? I don‘t know and, frankly, I don‘t think anyone else does either. This is not a black and white world. We cannot say that throwing a grenade within 10 feet of the target will work, but 11 feet won‘t. Real life and real war don‘t work that way.

Quite frankly, most of my regular force courses felt like 20 days worth of good content crammed into four months of training.

Does the fact your course was shorter than the one before it mean it was easier? I don‘t think so. Maybe your course had kick-***  instructors and the longer one didn‘t. Maybe the longer course was too long. It is definitely possible to overdo training.

All soldiers, coming off all courses have a sense of accomplishment, if the course was run well. If they don‘t, then look to poor instructors as the principal culprit.

The soldiers returning to their units this coming fall after their basic training will be proud of what they‘ve done and it should show. Before you crap on them, remember how you felt when you came back -- and how the previous year‘s "veterans" crapped on you -- and the year prior to that crapped on them.

Same people -- different year. The more things change, the more they stay the same."


----------



## Disturbance (18 Jun 2001)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T - 16days.
I have stepped up my training the past few weeks and have developed quite a good running workout if anyone is interested just ask. As well as started to do some hiking fully geared up (terrain in North Van is nice and steep)

lets see....gettin some new industrial strength insoles pretty quick, gettin some hefty big zip lock bags, maybe gettin some moleskin or something of that sort, have tons of buggoop and sunscreen....if you guys have any suggestions or lil things to pick up now is a good time to let me know. But I think I am pretty well prepared.

Any workout suggestions or supplements to take or what ever would be dope as well.

And finally I asked to the guys on my last training night...any advice for the courses.

you guys have my full attention from now till I leave. 

Disturbance


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Jun 2001)

Try get all your nifty, neato gear, like NBC bag, wallet, watch band, batteries etc. before you go. The CANEX is a bandit organization with officers above the rank of major as shareholders. The deal they cut with Canadian Peacekeeper for this gear is a blatant rip off to the common soldier to line their pockets. eg. $80.00 for a $30.00 helmet bag and almost the same for an NBC bag worth $34.00 in a kit shop. The base will try make the CANEX the only game in town, as all NPF purchases for the base have to be made from CANEX (as decreed by these same shareholders). You won‘t make enough to support yourself and make payments on their BMW too. Take enough toiletries, etc with you to last till your first pass, then get your stuff downtown.  Good luck this summer.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Jun 2001)

This post was identical to the previous, so I neutralized it.   :fifty:


----------



## PteJoe (18 Jun 2001)

hey 
I‘m getting my course as well soon, what is your breathing techniques during your run?  in through your nose out your mouth every three steps?  tell me if that makes sense..

Also, i didnt get my list of stuff i‘ll need yet!  can you give me the basic stuff to buy?
   :cam:


----------



## Gunner (18 Jun 2001)

CANEX does not issue shares and therefore is not controlled by a group of senior officers. 

I‘ve always found the prices at CANEX to be good or at least reasonable in relation to civvie land at large.

In fact the gas station in Edmonton has gas up to 3 cents a litre cheaper than it‘s nearest competitor.


----------



## Disturbance (19 Jun 2001)

PteJoe just so happens I am pte Joe as well. 

I breath a lil different than just straight in a straight out and it works for me. I breath in for three then as I take the next three steps I push the air out in kinda like waves,but not just one two three its all continuous but a lil bit harder as my foot hits. That way my breathing is my pace. DONT HYPERVENTILATE though.


----------



## RCA (19 Jun 2001)

For gunner (and off topic):

"For RCA...seems to me you put "met course standard" on my course reports a couple of times" - if I put this down in your case it was strictly for motivational purposes. It seemed to have worked. Come on down to WATC ADS and we‘ll do a QL2/3 together (we‘ll call it the Old Farts Troop)


----------



## PteJoe (20 Jun 2001)

Hey Disturbance, are you going reg or reserve?


----------



## Disturbance (20 Jun 2001)

My profile says Armed Forces Primary Reservist so I guess that means reserves?


----------



## Gunner (20 Jun 2001)

RCA...Aww, shucks    and all this time I didn‘t think you cared!

As a matter of fact the G3 Tasks asked me if I wanted to go to Shilo to fill a Safety Offr task from 17 Jun until 25 Aug 01.  While it was tempting (not!) my boss had other plans for me this summer.  We are providing support for the 2001 World Track and Field Games in Edmonton and I will probably be in Halifax for a little over a week in August to take part in a Domestic Operations Exercise.  Needless to say I will RV at your location sometime an hit you up for a frosty one.  By the way, I was in Bordon last month and met up with Lt RB who was on her finance course (small world!).


----------



## RCA (23 Jun 2001)

For Gunner...

 I‘m doing almost the same job as I‘ve been doing for the last couple of years in the office across the hall.  It‘ll be good to see you again.

And the same **** is still happening!!!!!!!


----------



## Yard Ape (7 Sep 2001)

The fact that a course is shorter means that instructors do not have time to correct disciplinary problems and follow-up on the correction.  It means that there is not sufficient time for candidates to be introduced and adapted to the military lifestyle.  It means that time on QL3 courses is lost to teaching or reteaching what should alraedy be known by all Army soldiers!  It means that soldiers are arriving at their home units (after a QL3) not knowing how to dig a fire trench, fire a machine gun, or throw a grenade!

   Yard Ape


----------



## ender (7 Sep 2001)

At my unit the 16 day QL2 people came home knowing almost nothing.  Some of them didn‘t know how to reassemble a rifle bolt.  They had no idea how to do a right dress or even come to attention properly.  Let alone fieldcraft.  On CAC (the one week summer ex) we tried to teach them some of the stuff they missed.

I know that the engineers had to take booby traps and most of mine warfare (and some of bridging) of the 3‘s course in order to fit heavy weapons and grenades.  People in support trades never get the heavy weapons training yet are still expected to pass MLOC.


----------



## McG (7 Sep 2001)

Of all the reserve engineer QL3 courses run in Gagetown this summer, the one which graduated candidates of the highest standard was the one which took all of its candidates form the block QL2 course.  They started the course more prepared than candidates who had graduated a weekend QL2 course.

On a seperate note, there were candidates who voluntarily withdrew from the block QL2 course because friends had told them that the weekend course run by thier home unit would be easier.


----------



## Master Blaster (8 Sep 2001)

Once more into the fray!

This thread (standards of QL2/3) has lasted for so long in so many guises that it could almost constitute a web page all by itself.

Obviously this is a topic that embraces the very core of our exsistence as professional soldiers (full/part time not withstanding) and makes us all a little uncomfortable when in a ‘civilized‘ discussion (without all the table pounding, life threatening and swearing a good mess debate could muster) about the subject.

A great many people on this page have had many years of TI to establish their opinions regarding this topic and become incensed when challenged by calm reason and logic.  I know, I‘m one of them.

I believe that this stems from our (my) passion for a system that HAS worked in the past and feels (again, that emotional stuff) that the system has become a shell of its‘ former self and that we (I) fear for its‘ current memberships‘ survival in the operational fields of the future.

What I personally fear is that when ‘the balloon goes up‘ I will lose my life or my friends will lose their‘s due to the shortcomings of forethought by the higher command groups and not for the lack of skill and professional soldier instincts bred into me as a young soldier.

Are the skills required to effectively survive and dominate the modern battlefiled being trained into our ‘new and younger‘ soldiers?  From all the accounts on this page (and many others) I would respectfully suggest not.

Dileas Gu Brath


----------



## fusilier (8 Sep 2001)

here‘s my beef on the subject

I did my reserve QL2 in May 1999.  It consisted of about ten weekends, about 15 training nights.  I came right of it into my QL3 Infantry.  My QL2 was fairly informative and it gave me a pretty good base level of knowledge.  The QL3 was about 7 weeks, then we went straight on to ARCON, a week long field ex in Gagetown.  Now I considered this training good and all, but I could have used a bit more.  
Recently I did a compontent transfer into the reg force, and received a recruit school by-pass.  I came here to Kingston to go right on my QL3 and found it was mostly full people fresh from recruit school.  Some of them gave me a hard time about my recruit school bypass (mind you they kept pretty quiet after I told them about my QL3 ;-) )  
I came into this course thinking I would be just another troop, but now I find myself taking more of a leadership role within the course because alot of these recruit schools guys really don‘t have the knowledge that you only get from time in, reserve or reg force.  So my humble opinion is that NDHQ had better start pulling their heads out of their hug ranking arses and start thinking for a change.  We‘re producing substandard troops from recruit school and reserve QL2, and this is not acceptable.  We keep getting troops that come into QL3s that are more concerned with ironing their uniforms and waxing the floor, as opposed to actually studying for the PC the next day.  We all know the three D‘s have their own place in a QL3, but they should never, never take priority over learning.  It‘s also amazing to see some of the people slipping through basic, you always get the odd bag of **** on every course, but seems that is consistently pumping out more and more of them.  I don‘t blame the staff at CFLRS, it‘s not they‘re fault, it‘s the higher ups.

Welll that‘s why two cents on the situation

Fideliter


----------



## Recce41 (8 Sep 2001)

It comes down to money, No money poor, weak Recuits. Good work on going Reg.


----------



## MP 811 (8 Sep 2001)

Im with recce..............my 3‘s were six months long.............cant remember how long it was when I was in the infantry!


----------



## Roko (9 Sep 2001)

Hey everybody, I was just wondering if anyone would like to share their experiences with their QL2 and QL3 training (hell, even ql5 if you want), especially reserves, infantry, and recently done... What was it like, what exactly did you do.... I still haven‘t gotten that figured out, and I‘ve gotta wait until may to go on course myself...


----------



## Disturbance (10 Sep 2001)

-m72
-m67
-c9
-c7
-smoke grenades
-thunderflashes
-arty sims
-uhh I think that is it

-def positions
-section battle drills (maybe platoon level if your lucky)
-basic patrols (f,uck around with other courses if your lucky....heheh that was fun as hell)
-ranges 
maybe some pt (if your lucky)
-sentry duty (fun fun fun)
-weapons cleaning
-stores cleaning
-cock (well a lil cock)
-townies from JDs (Infanteer took the grenade -that was funny)

All in all I made the best of it and had an awesome time. yeah pt was slack yeah the course is short yeah there were ppl there who shouldna passed but you just f,uck it and drive on. You will do things in those few weeks you will remember for a long time and will go home with many stories to tell. Just hope you get some good instructors and are in shape when you get there and you should be fine. A simple thing to remember is TEAMWORK -that is a fundamental skill you must have to allow things to go smoothly for you cause if buddy f,ucks up its not his fault its yours. 
I loved patroling cause that is the shiznit I wanna get into later. Section battle drills are pretty tough ( remember F.I.D.O) but when you look back after completing the days worth of them you think to yourself man that was f,uckin sweet. 

Disturbance

PS- a grenade referred to earlier is what you call a really ugly chick accompaning a really hot chick your friend needs you to take so he can get with the hot one hence the term - taking the grenade.


----------



## King (10 Sep 2001)

Where did you do you course?


----------



## Yard Ape (10 Sep 2001)

When can we expect to see this new Land Forces Basic course up and running?  I‘ve been hearing about it for half a year now, but I still cannot get an answer as to when it will become the standard of all new soldiers training.

  Yard Ape


----------



## RCA (10 Sep 2001)

WATC is suppose to start running them next summer.


----------



## Disturbance (10 Sep 2001)

WATC


----------



## Roko (24 Sep 2001)

Hey everyone.. I remember that recently it was discussed here how QL2 was bring shortened drastically, to even as little as 16-20 days in length.. Well, the reserve recruiter (are they as notorious as reg force recruiters?) just informed me that the QL2 will likely run about 40 days (or 7 weeks) this summer (although this is tentative)

This seems like good news to me, as this is going to be when I‘m doing my QL2 (and maybe QL3?), and I want good training..

Anyone else hear about the topic?


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Sep 2001)

QL2 is being replaced by BMQ (Basic Military Qualification) - 20 days.  In addition, the army has introduced SQ (Soldier Qualification) - 20 days.  There is the 40 day total.


----------



## King (24 Sep 2001)

Hold on.

I went ot the recruiter over a week ago and he said the unit I plan on joining is running a QL2 starting Oct. 12. Are these changes not being implemented until next year?


----------



## McG (24 Sep 2001)

Expect the BMQ and SQ courses to begin this comming summer.  Also expect many serving soldiers to refer to the BMQ as QL2 (at least for a few more years).  There are still members who refer to the basic trades training as TQ3.

The BMQ will be 20 days.  QL2 is 16 days.

I have heard that there is a goal to reduce all QL3 courses to 20 days.  This is not likely to happen in the Engineer world (QL3 is 36 days), but can someone comment on any of the other combat arms?


----------



## ender (25 Sep 2001)

That‘s what I heard they were doing with Engrs, but as you said there was a lot of disinformation floating around CFSME this summer.
You can‘t possibly train an engineer in 20 days.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Sep 2001)

To my knowledge the cut-off for 16-day QL2 was end of August.  So I suppose all basic training this fall/winter/spring will be BMQ.

The goal of 20 days for QL3 (basic trade training) is just a recommendation.  I‘ll have to doublecheck my information.  Some trades may certainly require longer to impart the "essential" level of knowledge.


----------



## Se7eN (26 Sep 2001)

What will happen to university sudents, I am planning on joining in april(that is earlyest) how can i be ready for the next school year??

JH


----------



## Roko (27 Sep 2001)

Hey, 7 (don‘t mind if I call you that, do you?), What exactly did you mean by your question? And, just out of curiosity (since we‘re joining the same regiment), are you in you last year of high school now? (And, I take it by you‘re message you plan to goto Uni.. What you taking?  (I‘m in Engineering))

If you‘ll still be in high school during May and June, you‘d be doing the July/August course.. The guidelines (these dates don‘t nessecarily guarantee getting on the summer course, though) I‘ve received for that say that you should submit your application before the end of April, so you‘d be good for that.. (May/June basic apps should be in by 28 Feb).. I‘ll most likely be doing the may/june course (and hopefully QL3 too this summer, although that remains to be seen..), but I‘m applying right now, as all the people I‘ve talked to in the Loyal Edies recomend joining right now, soI can parade a bit and learn some skills before basic.. But if you can‘t join till April, that should be ok too..


----------



## Se7eN (27 Sep 2001)

Yeah last year of High School, im most likely taking my pre pro in dentistry, unless something else tickles me. So basically what you have heard is that High School students can only do QL2 this summer? and have to wait another whole year to be QL3 trained??

JH


----------



## Roko (27 Sep 2001)

yeah... QL2/3 combined is supposed to run 3 months, so if out of high school you only get a 2 month summer, you won‘t have time to complete it.... That kinda sucks, but that‘s what most of the people I know in the reserves have done... QL2 out of high schoo,, then they did their 3‘s the next summer..

So are you doing DOTP? I have a friend who‘s going to do that, and he‘s joining the reserves too, although he‘s probably joining a medical company..


----------



## Se7eN (27 Sep 2001)

Whats DOPT? just a question, say for the summer I get QL3 trained since I will have 3 more months am I able to get para trained that same summer??, Im just goning to go normal INF coy


----------



## Roko (28 Sep 2001)

I‘m still a full-time civie (applying in less than 2 weeks...), who‘s doing roughly the same thing, but about Para, I‘m gonna have to say probably no. From what I‘ve heard from everyone I‘ve asked on the issue, the Para course is really hard to get onto through the reserves (who do you want better trained: the militia or the reg force?).. Spots are available, but only the top couple of soldiers in the unit who apply get it. (from what I‘ve heard). So, basically, you need to parade a lot, and take the job seriously, and prove that you deserve the course more than other people.. This would take a while. But don‘t quote me on this, it may not be entirely correct, it‘s just what I‘ve heard from some people in the LER...

As for DOTP, it stands for Dental Officer Training Program.. basically, they pay for your dentistry schooling (not your pre-dentistry, though) and you have to be a dentist in the army for a set amount of years after you finish dentistry school..


----------



## Recce41 (28 Sep 2001)

Heres a part answer.As of Aug 01.
   1. QL 2 is only basic training, and most summer contracts are gaged to only one course per. 
   2. QL3 can be run by the REGT if it can run a full course. 
   3. Most Res courses are cut down for school reasons.
   4. In Jan 02 all courses will be set to the new standard, for the reg force and summer 02 for res.
   5. This is to prevent repeat training that costs money.
   6. For para courses for Res are hard unless you are with a jump unit. ie Loyal Edmonton Regt, Queen Own Rifles, Regt de Sagania.
          Sgt J. CD,CDS com  :tank:


----------



## Roko (28 Sep 2001)

> 1. QL 2 is only basic training, and most summer contracts are gaged to only one course per.



yeah.. I thought (by the way an e-mail was worded) that there was a may-june AND a July-august basic, but that (from what I‘ve heard from everyone else) might (and probably is not) correct.



> 6. For para courses for Res are hard unless you are with a jump unit. ie Loyal Edmonton Regt



The Loyal Edies are a jump unit? wow.. i never knew that.. AND, What exactly is entailed by jump regiment.. Just that many are trained for para, or do they do other stuff too? (I was told by a member of the Loyal Edies that I‘d be doing tactical stuff in a chopper in 3 years of service.. this apply to other (non-jump) units too?)


----------



## King (28 Sep 2001)

The Loyal Eddies used to have a para tasking but not anymore. The only reserve unit that still does that **** is the QOR in Toronto.

I wouldn‘t mind hearing how the process is going for all the other (potential) recruits. For all the bitching I hear about how terrible it is to get in, my experience has been, thus far, excellent. The office here in Ottawa must have better resources. Either that or all the talk I‘ve heard about the CF improving it‘s recruiting process has actually turned into something.


----------



## Roko (28 Sep 2001)

So what kind of waits have you had so far? I‘m still on the ‘hurry up‘ part of ‘hurry up and wait‘. Getting my applicatin forms/package tomorrow. I‘ve already gone to ask for reference letters, and am sending out a transcript request form.. Should be getting all that a week from monday, then a week from thursday (I get off class early that day) I should be dropping it all of, and getting to the ‘wait‘ part of application..


----------



## King (29 Sep 2001)

I went down to the recruiting office on Sept. 13, I think. I picked up all the application forms and such and went back on Monday after I got everything together. I go back on Oct. 10 for the medical and interview. Initially the recruiter told me that the Cameron‘s are starting a QL2 on Oct. 12, but 2 days seems like a really short time between getting tested on starting a QL2. I‘ll have to clearify that when I go back. 

Considering I‘ve heard people say that they applied in Sept. and got in around Jan., I think it‘s pretty good.


----------



## Roko (29 Sep 2001)

supposedly medicals are supposed to take like a week to process the paperwork afterwards or something... 

I hope mine recruiting process goes smoothly.


----------



## Se7eN (30 Sep 2001)

Just to clarify, cause I keep messing up my questions. I will most likely take Ql2 this summer ( i am in high school and only have a 2 month summer) . Next summer 2003  I will be in Uni and will have a 4 month summer. Does this mean I can take my QL3 and then my QL4 of some other course in that same summer??

JH


----------



## Roko (30 Sep 2001)

once again, don‘t quote me on this.. Anyone who‘s acutally gone through the process, please correct me if I‘m wrong, or elaborate..

From what I gather, you need to serve with the unit for a year after QL3, before you do your QL4 (which qualifies you for Corpral)..


----------



## GPMG (30 Sep 2001)

Roko: That is not true. I took my QL4 just a month after I graduated QL3. There is a program in LFCA where troops complete a QL2 during the training year, and then get sent on a QL3 and 4 that summer.


----------



## Roko (30 Sep 2001)

That I didn‘t know. I read somewhere that you had to serve a year first, but I guess that was a bit inaccurate.


----------



## brad_dennis (30 Sep 2001)

I applied Aug 20th. I have done aptitude and physical. Waiting for security check to come back to be able to schedule medical and interview with officer board. This opportunity to schedule should happen in the next day or two. 

Here is a little chuckle. After doing my aptitude testing and handing in all my paperwork for OF infantry, I received a call from the recruiter, two days later, telling me that there was a snag in my paper work. It seems my University transcripts, although listing all the courses I took and the marks, did not actually indicate that I had been conferred a degree (as it had been originally printed off prior to graduation). Thus I could not proceed with the PT testing. Fine I said and had the degree couriered up overnight from the parent‘s house, took 1/2 day off work and brought it in to the recruiting center and had them make an official copy of this degree. "Can I now schedule my PT test", yes came the reply. That being done, a week later I took another 1/2 day off work to do the PT test. Passed. Two days later I get another call from the recruiter, there has been another snag. Seems that although an official, signed copy of my degree lay beside my transcripts in my file, the transcripts, not actually saying that I had been conferred a degree, was now causing my file to be delayed again for the security check. "But", I said, "you know I have a degree because you can see it right there in the files." The recruiter paused, "yesss...I see that", but we still need the proper transcripts and we can‘t proceed until this happens. "BUT...", then I shut my mouth, smiled into the phone and said. "Of course I understand perfectly". Took another full day off work to drive to the university get my transcripts, drive to the recruiting center and wait for an appointment to hand them in. "Can my file now be processed onward" I asked. "Yes" came the reply...of course I‘m skeptical and I will be phoning them everyday from now until I‘m able to schedule my medical. The moral of the story? a) If everything in the recruiting process seems to be going along fine, something is wrong, so check. b) be persistent, If they tell you that you will be contacted, ask them when you can contact them and do so. c) In the face of mind-boggling beauracy that seems asine, remember that in essence, it‘s your fault for not following the instructions to the letter, or in reverse, following them to the letter, either way nothing will be accomplished by blustering, just smile and say yes sir/ma‘m. You can‘t fight the man, he‘s too strong    . See I‘m not even a CF member yet and I have already experienced my first brush with red-tape. The bastards haven‘t got me down yet!   

PS - Anyone know how long it takes the Officer board to make a decision. I hope to be able to sign on the dotted line in mid-Nov so that I can take a short vacation in advance of Jan 2002 BOTC

B.


----------



## Roko (30 Sep 2001)

aaagh!!! You‘re scaring me.. don‘t say that ‘b‘ word again!    

So, I‘ll be applying in the next couple of weeks, for reserve infantry (NCM), and I‘ve got some questions.. What‘s the physical test like, and what‘s the medical test like, to those who have done it recently.. What do they look for?


----------



## Argyll_2347 (22 Apr 2002)

I am still in the application process (passed my aptitude test and interview with highest recommendation!  Have my medical/phyiscal wed. night) and trying to get my training this summer.

Do you know how long the QL2 and QL3 will take and what I should expect?


----------



## para (22 Apr 2002)

I think that that is the kind of question you need to ask your recruiter!


----------



## Argyll_2347 (22 Apr 2002)

He only had time to explain to me what QL2/3/4 etc. were and not enough time to answer how long.


----------



## Sharpey (22 Apr 2002)

I spent 4 months every other weekend, plus 6 weeks in the summer when I joined. Now, as I understand it, things are done in "blocks", BMQ etc... I don‘ really know anymore.


----------



## Pikache (22 Apr 2002)

My BMQ weekend started from end of march, going usually every other weekend planned to end early/mid june.

SQ and MOC Infantry at Meaford July/August, from what I heard.

Apparently there is also BMQ at meaford in June also, but that‘s out for high school students, I guess.


----------



## portcullisguy (25 Apr 2002)

My unit recruiter has told me:

BMQ - 3 June - 29 June (4 weeks), or,
          1 July - 27 July (4 weeks)

SQ - He didn‘t give dates, but said it also lasts for 4 weeks also and starts immediately after both BMQ‘s, which would mean:  1 July - 27 July, and 29 July - 24 August.

MOC (Infantry in my case) could then be done on weekends during the fall, if I recall.

So I may take the early session for both BMQ and SQ and take August off from work, so I still get some sort of holiday this summer.

In other news, I got to see first hand the state of affairs at ASU Downsview, when I went to pick up kit yesterday.  The staff were helpful and knew their part, unfortunately the most important kit was out of stock ... combat trousers!  They only had size 40... I‘m a 33!  And, I‘d probably get in s*** if I buy my own in the correct size!


----------



## Se7eN (26 Apr 2002)

Im a little worried about my aptittude test. The spatial problems mostly. I took the test last year and I didnt do so well, so I worked harder in math (improved to an 85% average) but I have no clue how to prepare for my spatial part. I cant afford not to get in becasue I have to contibute to my university education somehow and I really would like to avoid selling hamburgers at the local Mc****s.

JH


----------



## Nfld Sapper (26 Apr 2002)

From what I heard about the new system, is that it would almost impossibe to do the following over the summer BMQ/SQ/MOC.

First you do BMQ (Basic Military Qual) which is 20 training days. Here you learn drill, FA, C7 handling, etc. The "basics" that everyone needs. Then you do SQ (Soldier Qual)which is another 20 days where you do the fun stuff like machine guns, patrolling and section attacks. Then you go on to your MOC course which is another 
20 training days. And you cannot take out of sequence training (ie. you have to do BMQ, SQ, and then MOC). It sucks because it will essentially take 2 summers to get a fully qualified soldier. 

PG, I don‘t think you can do your MOC training over the weekends (I could be wrong) but your MOC requires lots of field time for patrols/section attacks/etc. this would seem to be impossible to do over the weekends. 
WRT to the  combat pants, who cares if they aren‘t  your size      that‘s what a belt is for!!
  . I spent my entire QL2 with size 40 pants (I take a 34) and a 7050 combat shirt!!

Your in the army now PG and the QM has only two sizes in stock..... too big or too small....   

Chimo!

    :cam:


----------



## Infanteer (26 Apr 2002)

> Your in the army now PG and the QM has only two sizes in stock..... too big or too small....


Or in my case, none at all...damn pogues


----------



## portcullisguy (26 Apr 2002)

Glad that‘s sorted out then, about the sizes.

My next question is this:

I know the army gives you ABSOLUTELY everything you need <grin>... they keep telling me so.  But, is there anything they might have forgotten anyway that a PTE(R) would be able to get away with adding on BMQ/SQ anyway?  I am thinking about a thousand feet of para cord and a a couple rolls of electrical tape for starters, and some elastics to blouse the pants properly... anything else?  Like anything more extravagant?

I‘ve heard that suring SQ or MOC, whichever, when you‘re doing advance to contact in full fighting order, the knees and elbows can take quite a beating.  Would some low-profile sports-type elbow and knee pads worn under the combats go unnoticed?  Or would it result in a beating of a different kind .. from the instructors?

Anyone have a recommendation on a good set of insoles for the boots?


----------



## Marauder (26 Apr 2002)

Don‘t listen to any of these guys, I‘ll give you the real gouge.
They take about ten days to show you cam and concealment, how to fire and maintain the rifle, and some basic first aid. Then they set you loose into  a 10km x 10km grid that is fenced in by a 30‘ electrified razor wire fence with mines and rabid badger enclousures all the way around. You get your own C7 (C9 if you‘re lucky) issued along with some grenades and claymores. The instructors get live rounds, as do you, and your formerly friendly instructors turn into ministers of death praying for war. If you manage to either a) fight your way past the perimeter and live or b) survive 76 straight hours of having the instructors hunt you down like a puppy inside ‘The Death Grounds‘, then they give you your unit‘s capbadge and then let them train you in your chosen MOC. Sometimes they let the Jedi‘s and sniper types use you as living, breathing, carbon based training aids in lieu of the instructors riddling your body with FMJ rounds.
Still wanna join?


----------



## RCA (26 Apr 2002)

Live rounds, interesting??? And where would you carry a 1,000 ft of para cord????

Sometimes, I am truely amazed at the "quantity" and "quality" of information by this means. There is enough bull to fertilize Alberta.(Which already has enough of its own.)

As to the BMQ/SQ/MOC, each are 20 trg days in lenght and you need all three to be condered a "trained soldier". As to sequence you must do BMQ first, but the other two in any order. As far as I know, the SQ CTP is not completed yet and from what I understand won‘t be out until Jan 2003 at thge ealiest (someone correct me if I‘m wrong.) From my understanding., if you complete BMQ/MOC before the SQ starts up, themn you will be grandfathered and considered trained. If true this shoud make ELOC (or whatever it is now very interesting.


----------



## Marauder (26 Apr 2002)

Why is it that that the only ones on here with a friggin sense of humour are the blackhats? Well, and a few fellow infantry privates.
I guess the rumour that you have to foreswear any sense of mirth and jocularity to graduate from JLC is true. Go figure.


----------



## Disturbance (26 Apr 2002)

I still wet my bed because of the Death Grounds. Wait no, I just have bladder problems.


----------



## Argyll_2347 (26 Apr 2002)

Se7en:  My school has aptitude tests that you can take through guidance, spatial included.  That will prepare you for that section.


----------



## Art Johnson (27 Apr 2002)

Portcullis Guy.
From an old Portcullis Guy, the army always appreciates initiative, go to the surplus store across from Moss Park I‘m sure you will find what you need ask for Julie. This may suprise you but your present Brigade Commander was one of the biggest mavericks in the 48th particularly when it came to dress.

Aye Dileas


----------



## portcullisguy (28 Apr 2002)

Thanks for the tip, Art.

And to the others... apparently only the blackhats and the fng infantry (like me) ARE the only ones with a sense of humour!  Not only was I kidding about the 1,000-feet of para cord (I meant to say 2,000 ft...) but I thought the Death Grounds bit was a riot.

I hear it‘s riddled with Horse guards‘ ex-tanks!


----------



## Se7eN (28 Apr 2002)

Agryll: is there any way I could be able to get my hands on those practice tests??

thanks.


----------



## RCA (28 Apr 2002)

Sometimes I should look before I jump and follow the sage advice of fools rush in where angles fear to tread, but...

After you‘ve been at it for awhile, the sense of humour gets rusty, but to prove gunners have a sense of humour, just see who we have to hang around with.

Sometimes after seeing some of the crap on here it is sometimes difficult to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

I still stand by statement about the "quality" of info that is passed on here as fact when in actual fact it is pure unadulterated bulls*** .


----------



## Infanteer (29 Apr 2002)

> pure unadulterated bulls***


Of course it is sir, just like everything else on the internet.  I just pretend it‘s a mess, and we all know the stories that get tossed around the mess.


----------



## RCA (29 Apr 2002)

Its not the stories is what bothers me. Anyone and everyone who has done anything has their war stories and that is what mess talk is all about. Most of us could probably write a book.

What I‘m talking about is those that are on a quest for information, and because somebody thinks they know, steer these people in the wrong direction. This includes the good old rumour net. The fastest means of communications in the Army. (In the old days, within 4 hrs of the checks arriving, so did the troopies.) 

Rumours and supposition should be stated as such not fact.


----------

