# escape and evade?



## Jaxson (25 Jul 2005)

i know the US marines and seals do something called escape and evade.. where they send you out on a "mission" and if the instructors or other team captures you or finds you, they interrogate you as if you truly were the enemy (beat the crap out of you and such) does Canada have anything like this? do they test your ability to camouflage? sorry if this was already posted its just this being such a rare thing to see talked about or anything, i highly doubt it has been discussed yet.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jul 2005)

OPSEC??


----------



## Jaxson (25 Jul 2005)

i only know it as "escape and evade" could be called that here in canada, i wouldnt know.


----------



## devil39 (25 Jul 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> OPSEC??



Not from the Airforce side.... TDV website

Episode 104 - Pilot Survival Training
Every pilot's worst nightmare is to be shot down behind enemy lines or over hostile territory. The Canadian Air Force, like those of other NATO nations, has developed a unique and intense training course to prepare its pilots for the worst. The air force SERE (Survive, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training highlighted in this show is conducted in Springer Lake Manitoba. From learning how to survive off the land to evading tracking dogs and soldiers, we follow a group of young pilots are they learn all about survival behind the lines. Very, very intense!


----------



## Jaxson (25 Jul 2005)

sweet.. thanks mate, thats the kind of thing i would LOVE to do what kind of pre requisite training do you need to do something like that? and more importantly would the be regular only training or reserves too?  i cant wait to get into the canadian army.


----------



## 392 (27 Jul 2005)

Different units run E&E exercises from time to time. It all depends on that unit's trg schedule and the perceived requirement for the training.


----------



## Dunner (15 Aug 2005)

You'll do a little bit of that in BMQ/SQ, depending on if you get a good section commander and 2IC....


----------



## Brygun (15 Aug 2005)

You might find reading "The SAS Survival Handbook" by John Wiseman useful.

Tons of useful things from building igloos, animal traps, colored pictures of edible and poisonous plants, movment strategies etc etc.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (16 Aug 2005)

I find it hard to believe that any section commander would let their troops out of their sight long enough to conduct an E & E program.  They don't have enough time to shoot the C-9 live on the Inf BIQ but there's time to run a proper E & E program.  I'll take your word for it as I've never done or been staff on the BMQ/SQ and I'm only staff on the BIQ.


----------



## paracowboy (16 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe that any section commander would let their troops out of their sight long enough to conduct an E & E program.


as do I. Methinks me doth scent the delicate odour of bovine excrement.


----------



## COBRA-6 (16 Aug 2005)

Dunner said:
			
		

> You'll do a little bit of that in BMQ/SQ, depending on if you get a good section commander and 2IC....



Are you refering to a stalking exercise?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (16 Aug 2005)

If he is maybe some one can explain the difference to him.


----------



## Jaxson (16 Aug 2005)

a stalking exercise is (i may be very wrong)  when they tell you to go hide, get camouflaged and then the commander comes looking for you, is it not?


----------



## Slim (16 Aug 2005)

Jaxson said:
			
		

> a stalking exercise is (i may be very wrong)   when they tell you to go hide, get camouflaged and then the commander comes looking for you, is it not?



No

A stalking ex is usually when you get into some sort of cam and try to "sneak" up on an enemy posn or target without being seen by the opfor. the aim is usually to try and gain useful int on the taget or try to attack it by surprise.

E&E is something different all together.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (16 Aug 2005)

back in the fall of  1994 the GGHG  ran a weekend training excercise in the Meaford area as an escape and evade exercise.
I was on the full time stalff so I was in on the planning and conducting of the EX. 

We dropped the soldiers who had to make from  south of Camp Meaford  any where from 15 to 20 KM in the early hours of Saturday morning. Soldiers were transported to various staging areas Friday Night, , allowed no kit but web grear, dropped off on the side of the road in the early  hours of darkness and told the general direction to the CampMeaford. 

Kit included, normal combat uniform, web grear, full water bottle,  stripped down IMP, a really bad photocopy of a map ( i made the photo copies and our machine was not the greatest,  copies made intentionally  blurry and too dark to be much use).  Troops were set off in teams no smaller then 2 and no larger then 6. They had to have  a watch so at a set time they  could stand along the road for pick up if they  did not make to the Camp and safety.

Ememy  Force was made of troops from the Regiment, 25 SVC BN MP unit, one soldier in the unit was a private pilot, he also a Private, he flew his plane with an officer manning a radio for scouting.  Jeep patrols, air patrols, and foot patrols.

Biggest troubles I saw were the lack of ememy patrols not enough people to cover the area effective,  but I think the exercise did what  the CO and RSM wanted it to do. Build team spirit, encourage the troops to work on personal fitness, build team leadership skills, and most of have the troops prove that  they could over come the odds and find their way  to Meaford on their own. 
OPP were alerted but were not active inthe search.  Mostly  so they  would know about a group of people running and hiding at the sounds of cars and lights at night.

One team made it back to Base by eary Saturday morning but it was rumoured the Sgt Major and his group had help from a local Police officer and his wife , who fed and watered them at their house.  Rumours never fully explained away.

This training was the build up to our CRS training that  fall.
It was a good team building ex and a good refresher to personal  fitness  and nav training. 

I enjoyed the exercise a lot,  learned how to conduct searches along highways and other natural  hazzards.


----------



## 1feral1 (16 Aug 2005)

Brygun said:
			
		

> You might find reading "The SAS Survival Handbook" by John Wiseman useful.
> 
> Tons of useful things from building igloos, animal traps, colored pictures of edible and poisonous plants, movment strategies etc etc.



Bloody hell Brygun, you cant go running about the bush with a survival bible in your pocket, and secondly these ex's are usually done when you don't know it and its sprung on you. "SUPRISE". You end up with a set of overalls and your boots and nothing else. No knife, no water, no food, sweet FA. Normally you are searched prior to being let loose on the countryside, with the local police, farmers, townspeople, and a very active EN force, who have a real hard-on to put you in a PW cage, waiting for you with interrogation and other not so nice things. I did one of these yrs ago, and it was a challenge to say the least, but the romantic cool thing ends rather abruptly when reality bites ya in the ass.


----------



## paracowboy (16 Aug 2005)

Brygun said:
			
		

> You might find reading "The SAS Survival Handbook" by John Wiseman useful.
> 
> Tons of useful things from building igloos, animal traps, colored pictures of edible and poisonous plants, movment strategies etc etc.


this is based on your vast military experience?


----------



## Strike (16 Aug 2005)

Speaking from the experience of having gone through both the basic and advanced SERE courses, the book would only be useful if you crashed from a slow mover or a helo and were able to drag your helmet bag with you in a situation where there is no enemy to worry about.

In a case where you have ditched in a more hostile environment, you will have an indestructible map of the area of ops that will also tell you about local flora and fauna so you can "eat on the run."  The map also doubles as a ground sheet, blanket, and bowl for water.

As for taking this course, it is generally only open to aircrew and aviation trades that require it (ATC getting deployed on AWACS for example), and is very difficult to get on otherwise.


----------



## Brygun (16 Aug 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Bloody heck Brygun, you cant go running about the bush with a survival bible in your pocket, and secondly these ex's are usually done when you don't know it and its sprung on you.



Did I say that? No.

Did I imply that? No.

FACT: The book is to big to fit in a pocket. Conclusion: You dont know a thing about this book.

What was said can be read in the original post. Since two folks where unable to figure it out lets try rewording it: For those interested in such things as "escape and evasion" the survival techniques in the above book you might find enjoyable to read and useful if you see EnE going on more than a few hours when shelter and food also become issues. It also includes a section on navigation. 

Apparently those who dont know the book think such a thing as navigation isnt related to EnE... or maybe its more cheap shots without thinking or knowing what they are talking about. Its proven now that army.ca has some folks who just do the "mouthy shots" for the heck of it. Disappointed in the individuals, more a feeling of pity. Army.ca has been informative and useful. Just a shame there are those who make extra posts just to try to cheap-shot other members of the army.ca team.

So to say again for the forum ettiqutte challenged... if you are interested in the topic of "Escape and Evasion" *then*  topics in"The SAS Survival Handbook" by Wiseman you likely would also enjoy reading. Some  of sections may also prove useful to you.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Aug 2005)

OK kids, stay on track. :


----------



## Strike (16 Aug 2005)

Brygun,

I was just suggesting that learning what plants are or are not edible would not be necessary in an evasion situation, since your SERE map would have all that info for you for that specific area.


----------



## Brygun (16 Aug 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> Brygun,
> 
> I was just suggesting that learning what plants are or are not edible would not be necessary in an evasion situation, since your SERE map would have all that info for you for that specific area.



FYI, was not referring to you.

Your style of commentary was professional and well presented. Its perfectly all right for folks to disagree in such a way.

Judging from your post you at least have some familiarity with the book.

It doesnt specifically cover EnE, rather matters useful in some scenarios (which is not so far from your view).

My main point afterall was that those interested in EnE might also enjoy the book and it may give you some useful things. Not that it taught EnE.   :

Afterall outside of an exercise on EnE a real EnE situation may involve survival issues, like finding water. For example the real EnE starts when "downed" more than 50km from friendlies without a radio or canteen. Getting water some time in the EnE would really  be helpful


----------



## Island Ryhno (16 Aug 2005)

You know Brygun, you've come a long way from your first post where you couldn't do a chinup, to now handing out lectures on army.ca posting etiquette and having at it with some very experienced military personell. I especially like the way you are bashing posters and the board all in one. Listen, people don't need YOU to help them with their posting etiquette on here, if there is a problem, rest assured that the mods will sort it out. I don't give a monkey flying **** about other boards and how it's run, here the senior members get respect. As for the book, yeah I read it, way back when and I can't remember crap out of it, except how to get water out of a fish backbone. I suspect if your really in the crap, the last thing you'd be concerned about is catching a fish. Also if you read McNabbs book BTZ (which is mostly bullsh** of course) you may remember that all those SAS guys didn't use any fancy tricks while on the run from the Iraqi's they just ran and got water out of any immediately available source. They didn't dig a hole and urinate in it to catch the evaporation, know why? They would have been caught and killed. Arrggh, why do I bother.

edited for language


----------



## 1feral1 (16 Aug 2005)

Brygun said:
			
		

> FACT: The book is to big to fit in a pocket. Conclusion: You dont know a thing about this book.



Oh joy, another paperback SME been there and done that poster here. Danger Will Robertson (arms flail)

Okay lad, to what are you basing your experience on?

FACT (as you put it): I have had this book since 1996, originally buying one in 1993 and lending it out and not getting it back. It is definatly NOT pocket sized, although soft cover. You seem to be drawing your espertise from a book and not the real world. Making igloos :. Thats a classic   . Just what military experience do you have? I bet war movies and 'book's. You have another 'empty' profile' and that tells us alot. try having enough intestinal fortitude and fill it in why dont ya!

FACT: Pull your head in boy, before you fuck yourself on here quicksmart. Paper wannabee warriors full of fantasy speculation AND with a what appears to be a growing attitude don't cut it here son.

Suck it up or MOVE on. If ya wanna piss with the big dogs, ya better get a Coke crate to stand on, you got a long row to ho.


----------



## aesop081 (16 Aug 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Oh joy, another paperback SME been there and done that poster here. Danger Will Robertson (arms flail)
> 
> Okay lad, to what are you basing your experience on?



WES:

I'm gonna take a guess.....it's just a guess but i smell another "know-it-all" cadet here.  Probably an air cadet who just finished aircrew survival course at some summer trg center and thinks he is now the light of the world.


----------



## Brygun (16 Aug 2005)

Wow, whole lot more dolts around than ya could have first thought. Recommend a book to someone and its amazing how many gotta take a shot to feel big throwing weight around. Grow up, "suck it up" yourselves. Its a recommendation for a book. Bullying days ended a long time ago. Get your homones out on someone else. Its a book recommendation, nothing more nothing less.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (16 Aug 2005)

And because you cannot play nice this thread is closed.


----------

