# Qualifications...are we or are we not.



## Dale Turner (13 Mar 2005)

Please correct me if I'm wrong. From what I understand from my recruiting NCO that CFMG is prioritizing new med A recruits based on their civilian qualifications. So a paramedic (ALS or BLS or otherwise) or other health care worker will get first priority to join as a medic, people who are in some sort of health care course or paramedic or nursing students will get second priority. Nurses are being persuaded to join the ranks of officers for their training officer potential. The higher the civy qualification the better chance of a person getting deployed operationally. That being said, Why does CFMG want so highly skilled people only to have them operate at the very bare minmum of their potential. For example, I am an ACP civy side. I had my QL3 written off, I have only taken my QL4 and PLQ. I have also been certified as a FA/CPR instructor. And every time a live fire ex is scheduled my ops cell is begging for me to take on the tasking. They say they need a TQ5 med A to cover. However I have recently been told that my civy qualifications are not recognized by CFMG and that I can only operate up to my military level of training. So I no longer am TQ5 equivelant, I can only work as a QL4 med A. And on my QL4 we did not cover I.V. therapy. That apparently was taught on the QL3 that I was written off because my civy skill set superceded the course. So on these live fire ex's all they get for medical coverage is a PLQ QL4 med A that can't start an I.V. (while I'm wearing green) . But I'm the chump who gets to call 911 and watch a civy amb crew look after the casualty I thought I was there to look after.

So if any one can shed some light on the issue of the CFMG requiring new recruits to be medical professionals but will make them forfit their skills every time they put on the uniform, I would be very interested in hearing from you.

Dale


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## Armymedic (13 Mar 2005)

Sorry, are you talking reg or reserves...

For regs, it matters not what your civ quals are, it is your military qulifications that is the bases of your employment. In other worlds you could be a prehospital god, ACLS PALS ABTLS, instuctor, whatever, but if you are QL 3, you are still a QL 3....

After you reach the dizzying hieghts of a QL5 all those prehospital quals are nice to have, but by then everyone is on the same page.

Reserves, I don't know...someone else take it.


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## old medic (13 Mar 2005)

Dale Turner said:
			
		

> However I have recently been told that my civy qualifications are not recognized by CFMG and that I can only operate up to my military level of training. So I no longer am TQ5 equivelant, I can only work as a QL4 med A. And on my QL4 we did not cover I.V. therapy. That apparently was taught on the QL3 that I was written off because my civy skill set superceded the course.
> Dale



Hi Dale,

I see your profile says 23 Fd Amb, so I assume this is a reserve question. 

First, I'm very curious as to who told you CFMG doesn't recognize civilian qualifications.  That certainly seems to fly in the face 
of everything that's been going on the last few years.

Are you currently certified ACP by a Base Hospital Program?

Are you Land or Air ?

If not, then your A/EMCA or EMCA certificate would certainly qualify you to work under CFMG scope of practice for the PCP level.

and lastly, Do you have an MO at 23 Fd Amb ? 
Your MO should be signing off your delegated acts while your in Green.


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## McG (13 Mar 2005)

Trg safety requires a QL5a medic for demolition ranges.  I've seen nothing that allows that to be waived regardless of equivalent qualifications.  Demolition ranges are the only ranges that I can recall having a specific requirement for medics in trg safety.  Various ranges, units, formations, or areas may have added their own requirements however.


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## Dale Turner (13 Mar 2005)

Hi old medic, thanks for your reply. Yes I am in the reserves. Maybe it was in the way I wrote it but CFMG may recognize civy quals and like I said are hell bent on recruiting people that have them but CFMG is unwilling to let these people work at the level of their civy training. I dont understand why CFMG is holding them back. It's like they want these people because they dont have to pay to train them. Yet they wont let them do what they are trained to do. 

I am currently working full-time as an ACP in Waterloo Region and am certified under Waterloo-Wellington-Dufferin Base Hospital.  I strictly land ambulance ( I barely have enough time to parade with my unit let alone spend all my time doing all the CME that Air requires ).

We do have an M.O. for our CO but unfortunately he dosent make the trip up to Hamilton from windsor all that often. So getting him to sign me off is a little difficult at times. He'll only sign me off for a certain period ie) a weekend ex. 

It's just frustrating to be an ACP at my unit and I'm supposed to be a role model to some of the younger troops with less medical experience yet when things go bad in the field I can't do any more then they can.

Thanks again

Dale


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## old medic (14 Mar 2005)

Thanks Dale,

The reserve QL3 is suppose to be the First Response standard.

Perhaps the answer for a working ACP is to have your unit apply for Reg Force QL3 and QL5 equivalences.
Maybe ParaMedTech and RN_PRN could jump in here and let us know what their units have done with 
civy Paramedics.

Incidentally, were you in one of the OPALS groups, or go through Sunnybrook afterwards?


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## Dale Turner (14 Mar 2005)

old medic,

     Waterloo Region was one of the original OPALS sites, with some of our medics going to the Michener Institute in Toronto.  Me on the other hand I was trained In Hamilton under the Mcmaster Base Hosp. Program.  Paid for by my employer at the time. ( thank you very much! ).

     Perhaps I'll inquire about applying for the Reg Force QL3, QL5 at my unit level. But I dont think I'll hold my breath.


Dale


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## Fraser.g (14 Mar 2005)

I just hit on this thread and hope I can shed some light.

In the reserve world there are basically two groups. Those who have civi quals and those whose quals are only green.

If you have only the green quals in the reserves Eg QL 3 and 4 then you are only authorized to work to the first responder level.

If you have Civi quals PCP, ICP, ACP, Paramedic, RN, MD etc then your unit gathers your information, licenses and the like and sends it off to the Area Surg Office. They then grant you equivalancy to a comparable regular force training level. This has to be done on a yearly basis as experience and jobs change in the civi world.

If you are ACP then have your unit put togeather your transcripts, job description and licence info and send it up the chain.

A good example is EX Cougar Salvo next week. I am going as the NO and I have several Reserve medics working with me in the no duff treatment fac. They have civi quals and will be working at the level of their training not at the reserve first responder level.

Hope this helps

GF


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## Bart Nikodem (14 Mar 2005)

Dale,
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/medServiceInstructions/engraph/msi_cf_6000-005_e.asp
has all the info you need on getting an equivalence. I don't know of anyone who has gone through that process. LFWA also has a process described by RN PRN in which you are granted an "Interm Employment Authority" by the Area Surgeon to work up but not beyond your civilian license.In my case it is PCP. I can't speak to wether LFCA has a similar policy.
Bart


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## Dale Turner (16 Mar 2005)

Thanks to everyone who replied to my initial post.  I'll take your suggestions and see what I can work out.  Trust me I'll keep you all posted on my presumably slow progress.

Dale.


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## Zombie (6 Apr 2005)

_From what I understand from my recruiting NCO that CFMG is prioritizing new med A recruits based on their civilian qualifications. So a paramedic (ALS or BLS or otherwise) or other health care worker will get first priority to join as a medic, people who are in some sort of health care course or paramedic or nursing students will get second priority._


Does this mean I will likely not get into the Med Tech trade unless I have paramedic education or experience?


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## old medic (6 Apr 2005)

A recruiter could probably answer this better for you.

It means preference is given to those with existing medical qualifications, then to those who without.
There are alot of Med Tech vacancies this year, they won't be able to fill very many with civilian qualified 
pers.


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## Zombie (6 Apr 2005)

old medic said:
			
		

> A recruiter could probably answer this better for you.
> 
> It means preference is given to those with existing medical qualifications, then to those who without.
> There are alot of Med Tech vacancies this year, they won't be able to fill very many with civilian qualified
> pers.



Thanks, that's good news...I'll check with my CFRC.

I'll be applying in August (or sooner), so hopefully that will leave time to be considered for some of those vacancies!


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## HCA (6 Apr 2005)

Zombie, I would say if you are applying for the Reserves and have no medical trg or background and are not enrolled in any of those programs, your chances of getting in are between slim and none. As for the Regular Force I am not sure.


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## Zombie (6 Apr 2005)

HCA said:
			
		

> Zombie, I would say if you are applying for the Reserves and have no medical trg or background and are not enrolled in any of those programs, your chances of getting in are between slim and none. As for the Regular Force I am not sure.



I'll be applying to the Regular Force. The only qualifications are grade 12 biology & physics (or chemistry) which I am currently getting, and a G2 driver's licence. Once I have the credits I am qualified for the trade, but am concerned about the number of (trade) educated and trained professionals that may be applying as well. Based on oldmedics reply, there may be some vacancies left for those like me with no experience or training in the field, so that is my only hope! If I am turned down, then I'll go get the education in a community college and re-apply.


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## Armymedic (6 Apr 2005)

Occasionally those "experienced"people can screw themselves by not knowing enough to keep thier mouths shut,
Previously civilian  employed paramedic, now Pte in Army, "But I was a paramedic for 5 yrs and we didn't use sandbags..they are just wrong."
 :crybaby:
Instructor, "thats too bad, because thats the way we teach it, and you fail"
 >

If you are joining the reg forces, no experience is ok because an open mind and a fit body is all you need. In a way its better to not have any experience going in, becasue that way, whatever they teach and test you on is the only way you know how to do it....

Later people like me will teach you what really works in the real world and why....


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## Zombie (6 Apr 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> If you are joining the reg forces, no experience is ok because an open mind and a fit body is all you need. In a way its better to not have any experience going in, becasue that way, whatever they teach and test you on is the only way you know how to do it....
> 
> Later people like me will teach you what really works in the real world and why....



Well, I have all of this -- open mind, fit body, _AND_ no experience! I hope those making the recruitment decisions are on the same wavelength as you; I'd really like to get in with my first application instead of going to college for 2 years...

BTW, I saw the pics you posted -- it's great to get a visual of some of whats happening in the real world...thanks!


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## herseyjh (25 Feb 2006)

When I left the medical branch (reserves) things were on the verge of changing.  Civi training was becoming more and more relevant, eventually culminating in the fact that you had to have civi training to provide medical coverage (So a PCP or a QL6a or something like that) and sense most reserve medical companies don't have very many member trained beyond a QL4 then by default you needed civi training.  I mean even if you were a WO and had you 6a your job was to provied senior leadership not staffing an Amb. 

The up side to this is as a new member with civi training you will be able to be deployed to other units (to provide medical coverage) and train as often as you want (that is what I did and it basically paid for nursing school for me) but you still need to take your QL3 and QL4 to move on in your military career.  That is the down side as you could be a ALS paramedic or a nurse or even both and bamo you are stuck as a Pte/Cpl unless you take the time to do the military medical training.  Some might say that this is need as military medicine is unique but from my perspective - after sitting on a QL3 Med-A course - it seemed to be a big waste of time and money for me to take was is basically an EMR course when you are trained and working above that level.  This might have changed but it was my main reason for getting out and going PRL and becoming a NO (still a work in progress) but it was the only way I could move up and along in my career without doing my QL4.  Time will tell how this will work.

So what is my final message here?  If you have training, cool, it should help you to get in but bear in mind what I have said as sometimes you might find the military medical world hard to take.  Now on the converse if you have no medical training joining up shouldn't be a problem as units need members to train (in the military model) and to show up and to fill tasking.  I think you see my point here, if you have a civi job then you can't commit to training as much vs. someone out of High School who has nothing else on the go.  Decide where you fit I guess.


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## rogsco (29 Mar 2006)

Reserve Recruiting in Health Services units: the recruiter was correct, preference is given to those with civilian qualifications. The target set for Reserve Field Ambulances is to recruit 50% of new members who already have a civilian qualification (EMT, Paramedic, RN, MO, LPN/PRN, etc..), so if a unit is nearing its recruiting target for the fiscal year, the applicant with the civilian qual will get the job.

Recognition of civilian qual: Someone already posted the link to the medical service instruction (MSI) on prior learning assessments and yes, in fact, many civilian qualified members have submitted PLA and received recognition for their training. In the case of EMT/Paramedics (depending on your province and lingo PCP,ACP,CCP) equivalency will be granted for pre-hospital portions of training, but not for the military specific portions and in most cases not for the "MIR clinic" portion because that kind of care isn't the focus of most pre-hospital care training programs. The good news is you can often complete the gap at your home unit during the regular training year.

Scope of practice in the CF: depends. If you are a reserve Med Tech with civilian pre-hospital qual you can work at the level determined by your qual and a supervising medical officer - just like in the civilian world, you need medical control of some sort. In 1 HSG area (LFWA) the Area Surgeon will grant employment authority for your scope of practice, but there still needs to be medical oversight. Other areas have not implemented an interim employment authority to my knowledge. If you are an RN and a nursing officer, or MD and medical officer, etc scope of practice is not an issue. If, however, you are a civ RN and a reserve Med Tech your RN scope will not apply to your employment as a Med Tech. Med Techs and nurses are different after all, and if you want to be a nurse in the CF and have the opportunities that come with that you become a nursing officer, if you want to be a Med Tech and have the opportunities that come with that, then you become a Med Tech.

As for calling 911 for a civilian ambulance when you are providing med coverage for ranges, you should be able to have your scope of practice recognized if you go through the hoops and if the equipment is available you should be able to provide the appropriate care, but as far as transport, think about your patient, would you rather bounce down the road in a crappy LSVW that will shake the teeth out of your head if it happens to make it to the hospital, or in a nice clean civilian pattern amb, I know which one I would choose and it isn't green!


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## Dale Turner (29 Mar 2006)

I agree with everything you posted. But about the transport issue... If I'm providing no duff medical care to a seriously injured casualty(ies) and I'm providing my civ ACP skill sets how will the transfer of care take place? I may be more medically qualified to carry on care of the casualty than the transporting civ amb crew. I might be wrong but I dont think I'd be able to carry on care inside a civ amb while the PCP in the back just watches me work.
And if your injured/sick enough you probably dont care how you get to the hospital. 
Bring back the iltis amb!! ;D


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## DartmouthDave (29 Mar 2006)

Hello,

In the EMS service that I work for we routinely defer care to more qualified teams. (i.e. BC Ambulance Infant Transport Team, U of A Neonatal Team, ect..)   They climb in our ambulance with all their specialized kit and we help them.  They are a higher level of care.

Also, when we fly patients down South we routinely carry on with care.  (i.e.  ALS patient being transfer to a PCP staff ambulance) I have for example cared for a ventilated patient in the back of a BC ambulance (staffed with BC PCP) on the way to St Paul's Hospital.  Not problems, no questions.

If your providing care as an ACP and you meet with a civilian BLS unit you go with that unit.  Unless, of course, there is some other pressing reason you can not go.


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## Armymedic (29 Mar 2006)

Thanks for that, but in the military, it does not always work that way.

I as a Sgt 6A qualified med tech, may transfer my patient to an ambulance manned by a QL 3 Pte.  Mission coming first, I must go back to the troops I am supporting and off they go in the amb. That is the way the chain of evac is supposed to work.

Same if I pass my cas to a civ amb. The only time we can go with them is if they specifically ask us for assistance. Reg F med techs do not hold provincial license (unless they get it on their own), only equivalency.

Also, if you are working as a QL whatever Med Tech in uniform, it does not matter what you are qualified on Civ street, you are still a military med tech and must defer care of you cas to the amb crew who picks them up. I have seen military doctors report pass their cas to several amb crews, and after the report to the  crew is given, the MO walks away (often to call the ER Doc at the receiving facility).


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## MommyMedic (30 Mar 2006)

As a five-year Private with both Reg Force training and a civilian medic license, I find all these posts about reserve scope of practise/QL level of utmost interest. How is is that the Resrves are recruiting members with civilian medical licenses, and with Reg Force training, and yet I am both, and no one cares? 
I did a BE as a Med A/Med Tech from 2001-2004; then did a component transfer to the Reserves (4b Release; no broken time). I did my QL3 crse in spring 2001, one of the last of the Med A crses before the changeover to PCP. I was posted to 1 Fd Amb, where the unit got a bunch of us our AB EMT license, as the AOCP meets/beats the NOCP for PCP. (It is such a relief to be able to speak my mind, knowing that these acronyms will be recognized and their significance understood.) So I have a Certificate of Military Achievement for a CF EMT Equivalency course, and an AB EMT license. I now live in New Brunswick, have an EMT license, and am accepted as PCP equivalent. I work as a PCP and as an EMT (life of a Casual!) My scope of practise is Advanced Airway Mgmt (Light Wand, Combitube, Magill Forceps for FBAO), IV Therapy, Symptomatic Relief (ASA, Nitro for angina/CHF, Epi, Benadryl, D50W, Glucagon, Ventolin), and Semi-Automatic/Manual Defib. 
My original QL3 crse did include IV's, ECG's, parenteral meds, and other such topics that I believe are no longer part of the ResQL4 training or practise. Yet I put on my green uniform, go parade Class A, and am told that I am a QL3 and NOT a QL4 R711 - and so I am a Private, I cannot even work an immunization parade, (funny I distinctly remember having to do needle parade as a Pte at the Fd Amb several Years ago), I cannot do anything other than sweep the floor (at least I was also qualified to do that at the Fd Amb, incidentally the only skill the Reserves have permitted me to retain.) 
I have submitted my qual's and memo's - incl QL3 crse report with PO's/EO's list attached - proof of current licensing, proof of current employment. I submitted the Annex B from the memo detailing how a civilian EMT reservist can be granted Area Surg blessing to work up to their civi scope. I got it all handed back to me. (Twice.) I am now going through the process described in the link provided as info to sqn_medic's orig question - the Prior Learning Assessment. The one where the Candidate does up a lovely introduction of themselves, jazzes up their resume, provides proof of their education, training, and any relevant licensure - and it is then decided how much of their training they still need to complete. I am now spending time that I do not have to painstakingly rewrite my resume, and sell myself in an introduction, to an organization that has continously employed me for FIVE years. To get a qualification - QL4Res - that my training exceeded years ago, as a QL3 Reg, never mind the EMT training. (Incidentally, the other mbrs at Fd Amb that I did my EMT training with - who have all stayed in the Regs at Fd Amb - had a PLA sent on their behalf to Borden, and subsequently were recognized as being PCP equivalent and exempted from the emergent portion of their QL5 crse. So yes, the trg holds up.) 
So, I have the civi med qual's (Incl ACLS & PALS.) I have the green trg and fd/garrison clinic/op experience to go with it, too. Does anyone know where I fit in??


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## old medic (30 Mar 2006)

MommyMedic said:
			
		

> I have submitted my qual's and memo's - incl QL3 crse report with PO's/EO's list attached - proof of current licensing, proof of current employment. I submitted the Annex B from the memo detailing how a civilian EMT reservist can be granted Area Surg blessing to work up to their civi scope. I got it all handed back to me. (Twice.) I am now going through the process described in the link provided as info to sqn_medic's orig question - the Prior Learning Assessment. The one where the Candidate does up a lovely introduction of themselves, jazzes up their resume, provides proof of their education, training, and any relevant licensure - and it is then decided how much of their training they still need to complete. I am now spending time that I do not have to painstakingly rewrite my resume, and sell myself in an introduction, to an organization that has continously employed me for FIVE years. To get a qualification - QL4Res - that my training exceeded years ago, as a QL3 Reg, never mind the EMT training.



First, Welcome.

I had to do the above process for my transfer to the PRL list. My experience was that it worked. However, It wasn't a qualification that 
I applied for.  Rather, they took a look at everything I sent in, I did a couple of telephone calls with Borden, and they decided what 
qualifications to write off.

As a side note, my understanding was that Reserve QL4 was long gone and no longer existed.  Perhaps someone else can substantiate 
or refute that.


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## Donut (30 Mar 2006)

OM, with regards to Res QL4...I don't know about "long" gone, but the word is it's dead.  The Res tng is two  packages, approximately 6 week chunks that will give the person a Reg F QL3 (Less PCP).  I'm not sure what the two of them are being called yet.  

I, too, have to wonder how many times I should have to present my credentials to the same employer, year after year after year.

DF


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## MommyMedic (30 Mar 2006)

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your speedy replies. I find it very reassuring to find out that someone has undergone this process and emerged on the other side with qualifications that make them employable. Also, it has been a tremendous stress relief just to see that I am not the only one stymied and confused at the COC response to having a mbr with a civi ticket. At this point, I am almost ready to submit the PLA, so there is little point exploring other avenues anyway. I am now looking ahead to see what possible snags may be next.
No more QL4, eh? Possibly I am just misinformed as to what the training is called. The Med A's at my unit tell me they have done 2 courses at CFMSS, each about 5 weeks in length. This 2nd segment is, I believe, what my WO thinks I should have to do. I don't care what they call it; if it is not at least at the PCP level I don't see how it benefits myself or the CF to do it. I think most civi paramedics doing a PLA process find that they still need to do a lesser QL to get the Green skills - but again, I don't see how they could be putting something on the Jr R711 trg that I didn't get in 3 years in. On a high note, I have finally finished tweaking the resume, and so may be a step closer to at least getting back my QL3 scope of practise. Seriously, until I discovered this forum, I was very discouraged about the whole situation; friends tell me to OT, go PRL, pull the pin - none of which appeal to me. I want to do Class A service as a Med A; I don't care if I ever do No-Duff coverage again - I want to train as an army medic and run around playing silly bugger - I just would like to do it as a Cpl after all this time, and I want to be able to contribute to the medical training. I love my civi jobs and I am not interested in Class B at this time (sorry Kirsten!)  But it would be nice to at least be Qualified to apply for a Class B; as a QL3 Pte Reservist is not very employable in any trade. Thanks again for sharing your information.


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## Fraser.g (31 Mar 2006)

The trick is to submit your resume, cover letter and copies of all your courses, certificates and licenses to Borden through your clinical standards O. He/She will be able to assist you in doing up your PLA application.

So far I have submitted three and two are back with full Reg QL3 quals.

Once you have that, all you have to to is submit your licenses once a year to show that you are still current.

DF,

I will send you the link on the DIN next week when I am in the office.

GF


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## dearryan (1 Apr 2006)

quick question.....

Would an applicant for a med tech with the following CIVI qualifications be eligible to have the QL3 written off, and possibly automatic promo to acting/lacking Cpl at their unit (obviously after BMQ) ?

-EMR
-PCP (various sub courses/certifications that go w/ it)
-On car experience (limited) actually very limited.
-IV 

Another thing...Are new DND med techs required to have the same pre-requisites as a civi PCP applicant. Class 4 DL, EMR/OFA, CPR-C, etc?


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## Donut (1 Apr 2006)

Ryan,

I'll assume you're still talking Reg F...

No, you won't get QL3 written off, but you will get a chunk of it credited to you, like the PCP portion.

Med Tech applicants don't need any previous medical experience or training, and they need to have a drivers license, but not a class 4.

DF


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## dearryan (1 Apr 2006)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Ryan,
> 
> I'll assume you're still talking Reg F...
> 
> ...



thanks man. Yeah its reg force. I always forget to specify that. I am just trying to make the right decision over the next few weeks here in regards to my intial entry into the CF. This site has been far more informative than *MOST* of the recruiters that I have delt with.


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## Cansky (1 Apr 2006)

Ryan,
If you are joining the reg and are already qualified PCP you can apply for "time credit towards promotion".  You should do this on enrollment, but can apply after you are joined.  You need to have your info from the college (or where you recieved your training).  This must include: number of days that your course was, as well as the subject you covered on your course.  I currently have a pte in my unit who was grant this,  it was based on the above mention and the days granted where time they saved by coming in already trained.  I believe this was 45 days.  So she will get her Cpl's 45 days early.  The pte did have to go to Borden and complete the military portion of her QL 3, as well as basic. She  didn't have to go to BC though.
Hope this helps
Kirsten


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