# Beware the regimental "anniversary beer/wine"



## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2013)

> The Canadian Army is all for its soldiers raising a glass to toast upcoming milestones, as long as nobody thinks there's a product endorsement going on.
> 
> And anyone in the general public who would like a sip, or wee dram, of the special spirits will remain thirsty unless someone in uniform is willing to share.
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press, 16 Jun 13


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## bLUE fOX (16 Jun 2013)

http://terminallance.com/2012/11/16/terminal-lance-234-dont-encourage-them/

Has this been anyone else's experiance?


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## Teager (16 Jun 2013)

I remember at the end of TF 3-06 1 RCR was trying to get a bottle of Crown Royal done up for end of tour with an engraving done on the bottle or something along those lines. It turned out that just couldn't be done so they got a real nice box made up which would come with the Crown Royal and a shot glass. It was pretty sweet and better than most of the end tour gifts and any unit was able to purchase one that was on that Task Force.


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## OldSolduer (16 Jun 2013)

Hyper vigilant? I'd say stupid retarded hyper dumbness.


What the hell have we become?


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## daftandbarmy (16 Jun 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Hyper vigilant? I'd say stupid retarded hyper dumbness.
> 
> 
> What the hell have we become?



Unfortunately, I believe that the collective 'we' have hitched our leadership horses to too many senior Officers in the 'Stupid-Industrious' quadrant. My unofficial, self-administered survey estimated current 'S-I' ratios at approximately 40%. Luckily, I'm not senior or important enough to qualify for inclusion in this survey  ;D:

"The German General Staff, the story goes, used to divide army officers into four categories: the clever and lazy, the clever and hard-working, the stupid and lazy, and the stupid and hard- working. The best Generals, the Germans found, came from the clever and lazy; the best staff officers emerged from the clever and hard-working; the stupid and lazy could be made useful as regimental officers; but the stupid and hard-working were a menace, to be disposed of as soon as possible.

 "I divide officers into four classes -- the clever, the lazy, the stupid and the industrious. Each officer possesses at least two of these qualities. Those who are clever and industrious are fitted for the high staff appointments. Use can be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy is fit for the very highest commands. He has the temperament and the requisite nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be removed immediately." 

Attributed, circa 1933; General Baron Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord (1878-1943); German Chief of Army Command (1930-33)'

http://regimentalrogue.com/quotes/quotes_officers1.htm


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## Ostrozac (17 Jun 2013)

Pardon my ignorance, but how many people actually want regimental labelled bottles of an alcoholic beverage? Alcohol is a consumable part of my supply system.

Now, regimentally engraved shot glasses, beer steins, pitchers, hip flasks, port decanters... Now we're talking! I'd be in the market for all those things. And if we ever have regimental shot glasses banned, then I guess the troops will be reduced to buying black market engravings down at the mall.


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## Towards_the_gap (17 Jun 2013)

Can anyone actually demonstrate case law whereby criminal liability was actually attributed to an image or copyright?

By which I mean, has anyone been brought to court, successfully, having been found criminally negligent by virtue of having a trademarked image of thiers affixed to a bottle (constructed by someone else, bought by a third pary) which contained a fluid (produced by said third party) and distributed by a fourth party (in this case the liqour licensee I suppose)?

I'm no legal beagle but this seems tenous at best. I'm with Jim Seggie on this one. The senior leadership is afraid to fart lest someone be offended.


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## MP 811 (17 Jun 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Hyper vigilant? I'd say stupid retarded hyper dumbness.
> 
> 
> What the hell have we become?



+1!!!!..............and being PC strikes again.


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## Good2Golf (17 Jun 2013)

TTG, not so much the alcohol linkage as much as unapproved use of a regimental insignia that more recently has been licensed as an image in Right of the Queen.  In a similar vein, remember the RCL threatening to sue any personae or organization that used its copyright poppy!  Although the RCL is not a Federal organization, so I suppose your question still stands.

The way around this of course is to use a symbol that means something to the Regiment, Squadron, Ship, etc... But that is not otherwise a copyright symbol held in Right of the Queen...

Regards
G2G


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## Haggis (17 Jun 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> TTG, not so much the alcohol linkage as much as unapproved use of a regimental insignia that more recently has been licensed as an image in Right of the Queen.  In a similar vein, remember the RCL threatening to sue any personae or organization that used its copyright poppy!  Although the RCL is not a Federal organization, so I suppose your question still stands.



The International Olympic Committee ruthlessly protects it's trademark, as shown in this story from 2008, shared with the usual caveats.


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## dapaterson (17 Jun 2013)

IANAL.  Do not take legal advice from random people on the internet.

That disclaimer aside, copyrights have a finite lifespan.  So "Crown Copyright" likely doesn't apply to regimental insignia, since that copyright has probably expired.

Per http://www.cipo.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/cipointernet-internetopic.nsf/eng/wr02393.html#crowncr



> Works of Crown copyright
> These government publications are created for or published by the Crown. Copyright in these works lasts for the remainder of the calendar year in which the work is first published, and for 50 years after that.



So, slapping the badge of the Royal Buckshot Fusiliers of Tisdale, Saskatchewan on a bottle of gin (produced by a legal producer) does not run afoul of Crown Copyright.


The Legion attempts to enforce a trademark, an entirely different part of intellectual property law.  I do not know whether the Governemnt has trademarked various military insignia; I suspect not.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> IANAL.  Do not take legal advice from random people on the internet.
> 
> That disclaimer aside, copyrights have a finite lifespan.  So "Crown Copyright" likely doesn't apply to regimental insignia, since that copyright has probably expired.
> 
> ...



Actually,

That is not the case, hence why your disclaimer is good about internet advice.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/faq/index-eng.asp?cat=dress&FaqID=109#ans-rep

_In accordance with Chapter 6 of CFP 200 – The Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces,

badge ownership is retained by the Crown, through DND, but vested in the officer commanding the unit or formation concerned.



*It is important to understand that all CF Badges are deemed to be intellectual property of the CF, and are copyright protected. For these reasons, unless it has been authorized by the Commanding Officer of the unit whose badge you want, only low resolution copies are available. Low resolution copies of CF badges can be found on the DHH website.*


If you are authorized as identified above, requests for high resolution digital copies of CF badges can be sent to DHH via the following E-Mail address: +DHH3@CMP DHH@Ottawa-Hull.



The public can also request to use a CF badge by applying for Crown Copyright Clearance.
_

dileas

tess


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## dapaterson (17 Jun 2013)

If they are protected by copyright, and the badge is over 50 years old, then copyright no longer applies.


A specific image of a badge may still be protected; but the badge itself would not be.


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## OldSolduer (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> the Royal Buckshot Fusiliers of Tisdale, Saskatchewan



Hmmmm....that gives me an idea...great name.


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## Occam (17 Jun 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Hyper vigilant? I'd say stupid retarded hyper dumbness.
> 
> 
> What the hell have we become?



+1.

They must have solved all the major problems at HQ.  You definitely don't want to read NAVGEN 022/13, which is deserving of its own thread, but I'm not posting it.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If they are protected by copyright, and the badge is over 50 years old, then copyright no longer applies.
> 
> 
> A specific image of a badge may still be protected; but the badge itself would not be.



Agreed,

However, I am sure next to the cubicles of the the guys responsible for changing military terms every five years, there is another guy who's job is to make sure not of them expire.  This article is explaining just that.  I have also noticed that there has also been a recent crack down by various regiments, I felt if from my own, on the use of the Capbadge on anything not authorized by the CO.

dileas

tess


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## dapaterson (17 Jun 2013)

Copyright can't be renewed.  It expires.  Trademarks are different.

And while a CO can use moral suasion on his own troops, there's nothing to stop another person from doing something.  So while the CO of the 48th may show restraint, Billy Bob down the street could still start peddling fruity drinks with umbrellas and slap on the 48th capbadge.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Copyright can't be renewed.  It expires.  Trademarks are different.
> 
> And while a CO can use moral suasion on his own troops, there's nothing to stop another person from doing something.  So while the CO of the 48th may show restraint, Billy Bob down the street could still start peddling fruity drinks with umbrellas and slap on the 48th capbadge.



Really? (Finger are tapping together, and mind is going!) 

Okay, now I am happy!  Okay, what should I send  to the Regiment (I got an e-mail from the DCO actually, on behalf of the CO).  I have a small business where I make Mugs, Steins, Plates, etc that I would like to get off the ground.  Obviously, my target audience is the Military.

Where should I start, in finding information you are talking about where I can send them to when they try to kibosh my plans?

dileas

tess

(I am being earnest, and this is not a what if question)


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## Old Sweat (17 Jun 2013)

As a writer, I have some knowledge of copyright law, but as it applies to individuals. In this case it expires 50 years after the author's death, but an application can be made to extend it to 75 years. Perhaps the same applies to organizations.


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## Shamrock (17 Jun 2013)

CIPO has a FAQ


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## kratz (17 Jun 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> +1.
> 
> They must have solved all the major problems at HQ.  You definitely don't want to read NAVGEN 022/13, which is deserving of its own thread, but I'm not posting it.



This will kill sales of doe skin mess kit and purchasing swords.


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## jpjohnsn (17 Jun 2013)

The bigger question is whether CF insignia even qualify as a "work" WRT Crown Copyright.  While that term is thrown around, it would seem to me that it would fall more accurately in the category of trade-mark which is a different animal altogether.


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## dapaterson (17 Jun 2013)

48th Regulator:  I know enough to know that I'd contact an IP lawyer before doing anything commerical.

jpjohnson: I don't believe most (if any) CF insignia are registered trademarks.  There is an online search tool for Canadian trademarks; it would be the first place to start.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 48th Regulator:  I know enough to know that I'd contact an IP lawyer before doing anything commerical.
> 
> jpjohnson: I don't believe most (if any) CF insignia are registered trademarks.  There is an online search tool for Canadian trademarks; it would be the first place to start.



Roger,

I was hoping to save some money though.  I was workingon it last year, and I was given applications to get permission from the crown (I am at work, so I can't remember the dept. I contacted) to use badges, but I was unaware of the run out time which would save me tiem and money for sure.

dileas

tess


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## Edward Campbell (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 48th Regulator:  I know enough to know that I'd contact an IP lawyer before doing anything commerical.
> 
> jpjohnson: I don't believe most (if any) CF insignia are registered trademarks.  There is an online search tool for Canadian trademarks; it would be the first place to start.




Didn't the Disney Corp. have some trouble with the RCMP's insignia a few years ago?


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Didn't the Disney Corp. have some trouble with the RCMP's insignia a few years ago?


I think it was more a question of the Mounties using Disney to market their brand a bit, then the deal just expired without renewal - not before the Mounties learned the copyright protection tricks, though.


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## Edward Campbell (17 Jun 2013)

Thanks for that ... I guess it reinforces datpaterson's point about consulting a lawyer - if the crown is the only agency that can license these things.


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## Old Sweat (17 Jun 2013)

When I was posted in the States in the Eighties some nunks called themselves something like the United States Media Corporation and tried to trademark USMC in order to collect royalties from the Marines. Not too surprisingly, they failed.


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## Strike (17 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> jpjohnson: *I don't believe most (if any) CF insignia are registered trademarks. * There is an online search tool for Canadian trademarks; it would be the first place to start.



That's not what ADM(PA) says.  They're very tight with how CF/regimental insignias are used and make sure everyone knows it.  Just going on what I was taught.


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## Ostrozac (17 Jun 2013)

Interesting. I took a look at the Trade-marks Act, and it says, in part:

_9. (1) No person shall adopt in connection with a business, as a trade-mark or otherwise, any mark consisting of, or so nearly resembling as to be likely to be mistaken for,

 any badge, crest, emblem or mark

    (i) adopted or used by any of Her Majesty’s Forces as defined in the National Defence Act,_

Now, I think is clear enough to mean that I can't call my tavern The Royal Canadian Dragoon and have a big neon Springbok as a sign, but the Trade-marks Act seems to only apply to logos and identifying marks of your business, not necessarily to end products. I don't know if you were to start to engrave zippos and then sell them with the RCD logo on it, that you'd be in violation of the Trade-marks Act. That sort of thing is supposed to be covered by the Copyright Act.

But the Copyright Act seems to have a 50 year expiry date, and many of our badges are more than 50 years old:

_12. Without prejudice to any rights or privileges of the Crown, where any work is, or has been, prepared or published by or under the direction or control of Her Majesty or any government department, the copyright in the work shall, subject to any agreement with the author, belong to Her Majesty and in that case shall continue for the remainder of the calendar year of the first publication of the work and for a period of fifty years following the end of that calendar year._

So is there another legal reference that I'm missing?


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## a_majoor (17 Jun 2013)

I had an interesting conversation with Micheal O'Leary a while back and one of the things that came up was officers often had their regimental regalia (including hat badges, buttons etc.) made up at a local jewlers. If I recall correctly this was certainly done right into the interwar period, but fell out of fashion post WWII.

How would a jewler get around the copyright/trademark infringment, or was that not really an issue back then?

As a side note, high quality laser scans of cap badges and other regalia can be made and then transfered to computerized devices like CAD/CAM milling machines or now 3D printers, so hobbiests can make these things if desired. Indeed, with a 3D printer and the proper resins, you could make cap badges in full colour (look at the image of the LdSH(RC) badge and compare it to the brass and silver badges worn by OR's and officers, for example).

Try regulating that.


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## OldSolduer (18 Jun 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Didn't the Disney Corp. have some trouble with the RCMP's insignia a few years ago?



I remember that. IIRC, Disney Corp had the rights to the RCMP insignia. A great hullabaloo followed.


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## Osotogari (18 Jun 2013)

So is the issue that the organizations in question are thinking of/have sold these items, or that the labelled bottles exist in the first place?


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## a_majoor (19 Jun 2013)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> So is the issue that the organizations in question are thinking of/have sold these items, or that the labelled bottles exist in the first place?



Remember "Royal Blue" brewed by Labatts for the 100th anniversary of The RCR?


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## Osotogari (19 Jun 2013)

The "Royal Blue" is before my time.  

Nevertheless, it would be a highly collectible and sought after item.  It is in no way derisive towards the CF in general or that regiment in particular.


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## PanaEng (20 Jun 2013)

For F sakes, just bc some puritans might object to alcohol being associated with anything does not mean we have to ban these. If it helps support the regiments and their soldiers, go for it.

just my $0.05


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## Canadian.Trucker (20 Jun 2013)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> For F sakes, just bc some puritans might object to alcohol being associated with anything does not mean we have to ban these. If it helps support the regiments and their soldiers, go for it.
> 
> just my $0.05


Damn inflation *sits back in rocking chair*, I remember back in my day when someones opinion was only worth $0.02.  And yet funny with the phasing out of the penny the rounding down would put opinions at worth nothing.
/tangent

I too agree that this should not be a big deal, but who am I.


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## pbi (6 Aug 2013)

In the PPCLI we had to deal with this regulation problem as we prepare for the 100th next year. We had intended to sell 100th wine, and there was talk of whiskey and even a resurrection of "Patricia Blue" (i get shivers about that: I was the guy who ran "Operation Albatross": the disposal of all the hundreds and hundreds of cases nobody drank..)

We ran into the issue of the Crown IP, which provoked quite a bit of concern and discussion. In the end, the SW Ontario Association branch arranged to market a red and a white, bearing our old WWI "Marguerite" capbadge, an image of the original Princess Patricia. So far this seems to be working well. Neither is a badge or device of HM Canadian forces under the current NDA. The product has to be purchased directly from the supplier.

What we did discover along the way was that there may be some leeway for use of Crown IP, if the product bearing current badges is sold only to those directly connected to the Regt, and not made available to the general public.


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## McG (6 Aug 2013)

The Canadian Military Engineer work around can be to contract with Sleeman.  It's not a government owned image, it is the brewers.


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## Lance Wiebe (7 Aug 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Really? (Finger are tapping together, and mind is going!)
> 
> Okay, now I am happy!  Okay, what should I send  to the Regiment (I got an e-mail from the DCO actually, on behalf of the CO).  I have a small business where I make Mugs, Steins, Plates, etc that I would like to get off the ground.  Obviously, my target audience is the Military.
> 
> ...



If you do manage to get this business off the ground, send me a PM. I might have some business for you.


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## GPComd (13 Aug 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Remember "Royal Blue" brewed by Labatts for the 100th anniversary of The RCR?



I've got one of those at home, kept the empty as a souvenir after some parade in 2 RCR.

And a can (empty) of Airborne Regiment 20th Anniversary.  The problem with that was it was OV (Old Vienna) brand beer  .  IIRC they ran out before the end of the Anniversary celebrations.

I think I also have a can from one of the Wainwright RV's at home (I'm in Edmonton on TD right now, have to check when I get back.)


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