# CANFORGEN regarding fleece kit



## korgano (13 Nov 2003)

hello,

Does anyone have or know of a CANFORGEN of other document that contains the regulations regarding wearing of the fleece garment as an outer wear. There is alot of speculation and "rules" saying that people cant wear these items on the outside.

Thanks.


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## Paras (14 Nov 2003)

Odd that you ask ,i was just thinking about that for this weekends ex.I recently saw a movie clip with the R22R ‘s training and one guy was wearing it as an outer,it makes sense since it has extra material around the elbows.


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## korgano (14 Nov 2003)

It‘s starting to be a real pain to have people come up to you and inforce this "rule" in the field, where comfort is related to effectiveness, and being effective is priority one. If I had the actual CANFORGEN I would have a bit more ammo to protect myself and the people who work for me from this "rule".


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## Ex-Dragoon (14 Nov 2003)

Any idea how long it was put out and I will do a search for you when I get the chance?


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## gate_guard (14 Nov 2003)

Olive,
If you‘re a gunner, who works for you? Your profile says your a pte but you‘ve got a little leaf and chevrons on your posts. Are you another fasttrack leaf? As far as comfort in the field goes, or any issues with dress and deportment, it really doesn‘t matter what any QR&O or canforgen says. The Sgt Majors  dictate what is allowed. I don‘t care who you are, no one can tell me that they would pull out their little pocket manual on dress regs and tell their Sgt Major "No sir, you‘re wrong, it says right here..." On second thought, try it and see what happens. He‘s got the final word, not you and not some little NDHQ pam or memo.

And really, what‘s the big deal? Wear your fleece under your combat shirt. Problem solved.


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## ggranatstein (6 Nov 2006)

Hello,

Currently serving overseas in a small contingent and we are having the same arguement. If anyone can please provide me with the CANFORGEN or regulation pertaining to the rules of wearing the new fleece (CADPAT version).

As far as I am concerned, it has a rank flap and is therefore outerwear... I know it's a small issue - but sometimes these things make a difference for the troops!


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## PoPo (6 Nov 2006)

We received and email from the LFCA CWO (Oct 05ish) via the BCWO (which was also sent to all CWO in LFCA) stipulating that 

"the Polar Fleece was only an "Outer" garment when in the field.  While in Garrison it is to be worn under the Combat Shirt. (or Jacket if you will, not to be mistaken for Gortex "Jacket")."

I still have this email - and as the "Dress Police" in my unit (so I have been dubbed), I have pulled it out on many occasion (no matter the Rank) to correct a mbrs dress.

PoPo


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## ggranatstein (8 Nov 2006)

I got it all sorted out! Thanks. 

I found a Task Force SOI that gave me the answer I wanted. It was VERY satisfying to show that to the RSM... VERY satisfying.

Cheers!


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## Armymedic (8 Nov 2006)

Habitant said:
			
		

> It was VERY satisfying to show that to the RSM... VERY satisfying.



I am sure it will be more satisfying for the same RSM to see a snot nose "know it all" Lt getting his butt handed to him at a later date.


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Nov 2006)

Maybe I am out to lunch here...

I always followed the dress instructions that was given in my unit...by the RSM.

He was the the SME on the 3Ds.  I trusted what HE enforced and ordered was sent to him from say..the Bde RSM and didn't feel it was my spot to say "RSM...are you sure?".

And thats my 2 cents.


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## aesop081 (8 Nov 2006)

must be that "new army" thing i keep hearing.......


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2006)

In the mean time, how about posting the SOI?


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## Synthos (9 Nov 2006)

Unlike the old fleece, there's an epelet (sp?) holder on it for a reason........

But yes, common sense prevails where it outside in the field everywhere else it should be under.

(Funny story, on our SQ course we were yelling in the shacks the night before inspection to make sure any fleece was -under- combat shirts for inspection.... sure enough ONE guy TEN seconds before they come in pops his head out in the hall wearing it overtop! One of my section mates reaction was priceless  )


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## TCBF (9 Nov 2006)

"Unlike the old fleece, there's an epelet (sp?) holder on it for a reason........"

- The 'holder' is in fact called an epaulet.  The cloth thingy with our Regiment and Rank is called a 'slip-on.'


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## 1feral1 (9 Nov 2006)

We all have something called commonsense, don't we (?), then you get some anal RSM, who places his own version/understanding of dress regs over comfort and practicality of the troops whilst on operations in a hostile area. I just shake my head. Next thing he'll want is for everyone to polish ther boots in the field!

About the fleece things, I am wearing an unissued one right now (and its black), at the CSM's discretion of course, and he's Infantry! He loves his black fleecy thing.

Lately weather wise, right now here in Baghdad,  its only about 8C with a high today about 18C or so.


Regards,

Wes


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## 17thRecceSgt (9 Nov 2006)

Wes,

You don't polish your boots in the field?

Check the duty list...I think you just made it a few times!   ;D ;D ;D

In light of your post...there was always a "unwritten" policy of whats ok in Garrison vice the field.

I can't comment on operations in a hostile area...unless you count Tignish, PEI.  Folks there had more guns than we did...and they weren't carrying blanks   

 ;D


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## ggranatstein (9 Nov 2006)

Ahh... the requisite 'snot nosed LT' comment!  

You know, I wouldn't and didn't embarass the RSM in front of anyone. Her comment was "find a reg that says you can..." so I did. If you have a good relationship with your RSM, you can do things like that. Hopefully.

And no, the justification of "well, if the RSM got it from the Bde RSM, I won't question it" does not fly with me. In my limited experience, it's good to try and find out the "why" around orders that seem to lack common sense. In some ways, I think that this is part of the job of being a "snot nosed LT." Especially when it comes to the comfort of the troops.

Getting in and out of vehicles, going in and out of meeting with locals - you don't want to have to overheat and not be able to take the fleece off because it's under your combat shirt. It's just common sense and the RSM accepted it when showed the new SOI. She was originally following the garrison dress regs because that was all she knew.

But yes, I'm sure she'll try and get me back. I look forward to it!


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Nov 2006)

Habitant said:
			
		

> Ahh... the requisite 'snot nosed LT' comment!
> 
> You know, I wouldn't and didn't embarass the RSM in front of anyone. Her comment was "find a reg that says you can..." so I did. If you have a good relationship with your RSM, you can do things like that. Hopefully.
> 
> ...



 ;D


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## spud (10 Nov 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I can't comment on operations in a hostile area...unless you count Tignish, PEI.
> ;D



Mudman,

Right on, you haven't lived till you visit Tignish on a Friday night during pogey week. And if you do, you may not live

potato

Former inhabitant of that potato laden rock called PEI


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## armyvern (10 Nov 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> ...unless you count Tignish, PEI.  Folks there had more guns than we did...and they weren't carrying blanks
> ;D



It's not that bad.......


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## spud (10 Nov 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> It's not that bad.......



Ha ha, If you're from Tignish it's not that bad  ;D 

If you're from down East, and admit you are from down East, then it was......."let's get ready to rumble".... :threat:

potato


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## armyvern (10 Nov 2006)

spud said:
			
		

> Ha ha, If you're from Tignish it's not that bad  ;D
> 
> If you're from down East, and admit you are from down East, then it was......."let's get ready to rumble".... :threat:
> 
> potato



Well, I'd never know...Tidnish...Tignish...only difference is Provinces!!  ;D

I'm an "import."


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## socialhandgrenade (10 Nov 2006)

STop the bickering youre nothing if youre not from Sherwood .remeber born on the farm die by the barn potatoes for life.


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## spud (10 Nov 2006)

socialhandgrenade said:
			
		

> .remeber born on the farm die by the barn potatoes for life.



Mom?? ???


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## mudeater (10 Nov 2006)

Yeah what's the deal? In 32 Brig we are always told "fleece ins't an outter garment soldier".


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## armyvern (10 Nov 2006)

The message regarding the wearing of fleece states that it is not for use as outerwear while in Garrison.

When on training and operations...it is at the discretion of the CoC of the particluar Unit/Op, at can be changed at the discretion of new incoming COs (with input from the RSMs who enforce the regs) as they deem fit.

So what was acceptable on trg or Ops for one tour/CO may not be acceptable to the next. It is at their discretion.


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## 17thRecceSgt (10 Nov 2006)

And that seems to put the issue to bed then...


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## MOOXE (15 Nov 2006)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> Olive,
> If you‘re a gunner, who works for you? Your profile says your a pte but you‘ve got a little leaf and chevrons on your posts. Are you another fasttrack leaf? As far as comfort in the field goes, or any issues with dress and deportment, *it really doesn‘t matter what any QR&O or canforgen says*. The Sgt Majors  dictate what is allowed. I don‘t care who you are, no one can tell me that they would pull out their little pocket manual on dress regs and tell their Sgt Major "No sir, you‘re wrong, it says right here..." On second thought, try it and see what happens. He‘s got the final word, not you and not some little NDHQ pam or memo.
> 
> And really, what‘s the big deal? Wear your fleece under your combat shirt. Problem solved.



Your dedication to your chain of command is truely inspirational. However, your total lack of respect to established rules and regulations is abysmal. The SM does indeed have a say, his say in the matter makes him liable for your actions. In other words, hes removing you from your responsibility to follow that rule.


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## armyvern (16 Nov 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> Your dedication to your chain of command is truely inspirational. However, your total lack of respect to established rules and regulations is abysmal. The SM does indeed have a say, his say in the matter makes him liable for your actions. In other words, hes removing you from your responsibility to follow that rule.


Well, in this case...he's right. When deployed on ops or trg the regs state that the wearing of the fleece is a CoC decision.


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## Armymedic (16 Nov 2006)

MOOXE, perhaps you wanna quote someone who has actually posted a reply on this board less then 3 yrs ago?

I don't know where you all work, but this issue has been dead and buried by the professional army for a yr or so.


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## 17thRecceSgt (16 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> MOOXE, perhaps you wanna quote someone who has actually posted a reply on this board less then 3 yrs ago?
> 
> I don't know where you all work, *but this issue has been dead and buried by the professional army for a yr or so.*



And the ref takes away a point, signals "low blow" to the judges... ;D


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## Armymedic (16 Nov 2006)

Low blow?...perhaps.  8)

I am hoping that this discussion can be put to bed, finally.


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## Fraser.g (16 Nov 2006)

Funny,

I just had this debate with the CSM the other night in the DFAC at KAF.

She informed me that the dress regs stated that fleece was only worn as an outer garmet when in the field therefore I had to put my fleece under my shirt.

I turned it around and asked her where I was to turn in my personal weapon as it was not required in garrison.

It was a private conversation as I would not question any statement of the CSM in public.


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## MOOXE (16 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> MOOXE, perhaps you wanna quote someone who has actually posted a reply on this board less then 3 yrs ago?
> 
> I don't know where you all work, but this issue has been dead and buried by the professional army for a yr or so.



I used the search function that I seen referenced about 40,000 times by the staff here! See what happens?


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## Michael OLeary (16 Nov 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> I used the search function that I seen referenced about 40,000 times by the staff here! See what happens?



Use the advanced search page, and limit the search by the message age.


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