# G8/G20 June 2010 Protest Watch



## The Bread Guy

This, from the Canadian Press:


> Activists say Canada has betrayed its role as an international leader and can expect protesters to take that message to the streets during the G8 and G20 summits.
> 
> Stephen Lewis, former ambassador to the United Nations, says Canada will show up empty-handed at the summits in Huntsville, Ont., and Toronto this summer.
> 
> Lewis says Prime Minister Stephen Harper is out of step with the other leaders on foreign aid spending.
> 
> He also says the prime minister has broken a promise to commit 0.7 per cent of Canada's gross national income to eradicating world poverty by 2015.
> 
> Gerry Barr, president of the Canadian Council on International Co-operation, says there will be public demonstrations to bring "sharpness" to those issues.
> 
> Lewis and Barr were speaking in Toronto at the launch of a global campaign called "At The Table" being organized by a coalition of NGO's and faith-based groups.
> 
> Barr says protesters will question whether Canada is doing enough to help eradicate global poverty, alleviate climate change and bring about global economic recovery.
> 
> The campaign, aimed at pressuring international leaders to put more resources into fighting world poverty, also plans town-hall meetings and a Mother's Day of action, culminating in a global day of action in June.
> 
> The G8 summit will be held in the cottage-country town of Huntsville beginning June 25, immediately followed by a meeting of the G20 leaders in Toronto.



A few quick search resources (feel free to add any you think are useful):
- Official G8 Summit Site
- Official G20 Summit Site
- G8-G20 Integrated Security Unit - "Information for Demonstrators"

- G20/G8 Toronto Community Mobilization Network - Schedule of Events - Toronto Community Mobilization Network (Facebook)

- G8 & G20 PROTEST!! (Facebook)

- G20central.com:  "We started this site because we feel and think as much as you do. Care about many of the things you care about, although most people do not care about them. You are not alone." - Twitter feed - Facebook

- Rabble.ca Tag Index "G20 protest"
- Centre for Media Alternatives "G8-G20"

- "This site - www.wombles.org.uk - collects news and information about anti-capitalist / anarchist direct action, protests and events." - G20 Actions - G8 2010 - Canada


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## PuckChaser

Out of step with foreign aid spending? How many of these "protesters" are on welfare? Welfare ain't free. Niether is the health care or the post-secondary education subsidies you're getting. It all costs tax dollars, and in the current economic climate we don't have any to spare.

I really hope the G8 and G20 protesters decide that peacefully putting a message across is far more effective than being belligerents. Otherwise, I've got no sympathy when the pepper spray and rubber bullets come out.


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## The Bread Guy

This, from the _Globe & Mail_:


> Nine years ago, Dennis Howlett's son was on the front line of protesters in Quebec City for the Summit of the Americas, tearing down fences and being sprayed with tear gas.
> 
> As this summer's G20 Summit in Toronto approaches, the senior Mr. Howlett, co-ordinator of Make Poverty History, said he is concerned about the possibility of a similar showdown between angry demonstrators and the unprecedented police presence planned for the city.
> 
> “We are concerned about violence,” he said Monday.
> 
> Along with a coalition of NGOs, labour and student groups, Make Poverty History launched a campaign Monday called At the Table, a series of events leading up to the G20 on June 26 and 27 aimed at pressuring the Canadian government to increase its commitment to foreign aid. But Mr. Howlett said the group also hopes to make its case before the summit's launch as a way to dissipate the possibility of violent conflict.
> 
> “We're trying the critical engagement approach,” he said. “Doing anything outside the security perimeter, it's going to be a nightmare with security.”
> 
> When world leaders arrive in the city, his group plans to be inside the security barricade. They have asked for 200 credentials for NGO representatives from around the world, allowing those who oppose the policies of G20 leaders to make their arguments directly to journalists inside the media tent.
> 
> But outside the security barricade is where the credibility of protesters could be lost, the group acknowledged, if police and demonstrators clash in the downtown core.
> 
> One Facebook group for protesters, RESIST TORONTO G20 SUMMIT 2010, has more than 800 people already confirming their attendance at a “day of action” during the summit. One of the group's administrators is vocal U.S. anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan, and comments on the group's discussion page range from simple questions about the demonstration's itinerary to people typing “RIOT, RIOT, RIOT.” ....



More resources....
- "Make Poverty History" Summit page
- RESIST TORONTO G20 SUMMIT 2010 (Facebook)

- G20 Youth Summit (part of regular summit, partly funded by DFAIT) - Facebook


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## TimBit

I remember talking with a friend's friend shortly after the Quebec Summit, and he told me he was there throwing gas canisters back at the cops and bringing down fences. I did not know him to be particularly politically witty so I asked him why he did that, to which he replied: "It was fun to challenge the coppers". Hmm...

Asked him what the summit was all about, and he said "globalization and stuff"... hmm...

I have no problem with peaceful protest to express an opinion... but why is it that violent protest is 90% of the time the action of those who have no real opinion to express?

 :


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## The Bread Guy

TimBit said:
			
		

> I have no problem with peaceful protest to express an opinion... but why is it that violent protest is 90% of the time the action of those who have no real opinion to express?
> 
> :


Often carried out by maybe 3-5% of the protesters that the rest of the groups 1)  can't keep a grip on;
2)  may be too scared to try to keep a grip on;
3)  choose to defend by saying "oh yeah?  well the police were bad, too".  

Also, methinks the real hard core of the worst rabble-rousers (the 1-%ers?) wouldn't be speaking to media (they have other rabbles to rouse elsewhere, which they can't do from jail), leaving the other, dopier, more gullible 2-4% to babble to MSM.


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## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Often carried out by maybe 3-5% of the protesters that the rest of the groups 1)  can't keep a grip on;
> 2)  may be too scared to try to keep a grip on;
> 3)  choose to defend by saying "oh yeah?  well the police were bad, too".
> 
> Also, methinks the real hard core of the worst rabble-rousers (the 1-%ers?) wouldn't be speaking to media (they have other rabbles to rouse elsewhere, which they can't do from jail), leaving the other, dopier, more gullible 2-4% to babble to MSM.


Its well known that the hard core demonstrators/rioters hold training sessions that inform/instruct "usefull idiots" in how to disrupt and defeat police tactics.


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## The Bread Guy

More from the _Toronto Star_ and NOW Magazine.

- "At The Table 2010" Campaign web site


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## zipperhead_cop

It will be interesting to see where they decide to protest.  The G8 are the really powerful countries, but the G20 is nice and close to Hippie Central.  
It will also be interesting to see how swiftly the riot protest organizers get shut down.  Having fielded more than a few of these things now, I think the security organizers will be swift to locate, identify and extricate the anarchist idiots that like to turn these things into a Gong Show.  
I continue to be curious how fighting with the police manages to promote any sort of message.


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## The Bread Guy

This, from Judy Rebick at rabble.ca, denouncing the black balaclavas:


> .... if diversity of tactics means that people who aim to commit vandalism and sometimes violence can come into the middle of a demonstration with black face masks and break up whatever takes their fancy when the vast majority of people involved don't want them to, then I draw a line.  It's true that violent action gets more publicity, but it's the wrong publicity that is about the violence itself, not about the issue ....



This from the linchpin.ca anarchist site:


> .... While I understand the motivations behind those who smashed the windows, and also appreciate the tactical benefits of masking up and dressing all in black to thwart detection from integrated state surveillance and to avoid arrest, I think that it is time to seriously question the tactical benefits of largely symbolic property damage that has become synonymous with black bloc actions ....



And in response, this at the infoshop.org "independent media" site:


> .... It is true that the State is not a window, but neither is it just an abstract concept. Breaking windows is not a revolutionary act and neither is any other act if taken out of context and presented as an abstraction, ignoring the intentions and strategy of those who break the windows.
> 
> The State or Capital or colonialism cannot be attacked as abstractions. They can only be attacked in their material forms, their social relations and their institutions. It is not possible to attack all forms and material components of oppression at once, so they must be attacked in pieces at different times and locations.
> 
> Like oppressive systems, a social revolution is more than the sum of its parts, but neither can it exist without its parts working in relation to each other. A social revolution can be seen as an accumulation of diverse activities over a period of time. It is not a switch that can be flipped instantly. It can’t be understood in a purely abstract way or by ignoring the different particular factors and actions that compose it ....


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## The Bread Guy

Media Advisory - G8/G20 People's Summit in Toronto will call for 'system change, not more of the same'



> TORONTO, March 18 /CNW Telbec/ - Three months from today the 2010 People's Summit will begin in Toronto, and is inviting people from across Canada and around the world to come to Toronto to challenge the policies of the G8 and G20 this June.
> 
> On the weekend before the official G20 Summit, the People's Summit will take place at Ryerson University in Toronto. The People's Summit will educate, empower and ignite positive change, through a wide array of workshops, presentations, skills training and cultural events. Planning for the People's Summit has been underway for several months, and is the latest counter-summit in a long lineage of grassroots responses to international summits.
> 
> "The people of the world are demanding system change, not more of the same economic, social, and environmental injustices that are perpetuated by the G8 and G20," says Marya Folinsbee, coordinator of the G8/G20 People's Summit. "And so the People's Summit will have more legitimacy in representing the aspirations of the people of the world than the G8 and G20 can ever claim."
> 
> "The Canadian government, host of the G8 and the G20 Summits, has lost credibility on a broad range of issues that do not reflect the opinion of the average Canadian, such as on climate change, foreign policy and now maternal health," says Dylan Penner, a People's Summit spokesperson and media officer for the Council of Canadians. "People in Canada and around the world have lost faith in this government."
> 
> "The G20 wants to maintain the status quo for its own benefit. The rest of the world wants change," adds Folinsbee. "The People's Summit is building solidarity across movements to ensure all voices are represented, and unlike the G8 and G20, this is what democracy looks like."
> 
> The People's Summit will bring together people from all walks of life working for solidarity, self-determination, human rights, a people's economy, justice, peace, a healthy planet, and transformative social change against current economic policies.
> 
> The steering committee of the People's Summit includes the Council of Canadians, Canadian Labour Congress, Canadian Federation of Students - Ontario, Canadian Peace Alliance, Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE), CUPE Ontario, Communications Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada, Greenpeace, Ontario Council for International Cooperation, Polaris Institute, Rainforest Action Network, Toronto Community Mobilization Network, and the United Church. The website of the People's Summit is www.peoplessummit2010.ca.
> 
> Following the People's Summit, a week of G20 protests will take place throughout Toronto, between the 21st and 27th, organized by the Community Mobilization Network, a network of Toronto-based organizations of people of colour, indigenous peoples, women, the poor, the working class, queer and trans people and disAbled people. For more details visit www.g20.torontomobilize.org.
> 
> For further information: In Toronto: Marya Folinsbee, (905) 218-5131, coordinator@peoplessummit2010.ca; In Ottawa: Dylan Penner, Council of Canadians, (613) 795-8685, dpenner@canadians.org



People's Summit Home Page - Facebook Page - "Basic Principles of Activities of the People’s Summit 2010"


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## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> Protest groups say they plan to fill the streets when G8 foreign ministers meet next week in Gatineau, Quebec.
> 
> A small coalition of anti-war and social justice groups says it is arranging for buses to take protesters to the ministers' meeting across the river from Ottawa.
> 
> The group says it wants a peaceful but vigorous demonstration to tell the ministers they should be doing more to ban nuclear arms, stop climate change and be more accountable.
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon meets Monday with his G8 counterparts in preparation for a summit to be held in Huntsville, Ont., at the end of June.
> 
> Cannon says the ministers will focus on nuclear proliferation, global security, and the stability of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
> 
> Beforehand, he will meet ministers from four other Arctic countries to discuss economic development and the environment in the region.
> 
> The protest groups say the exclusion of aboriginal groups from the Arctic discussions is "catastrophic."
> 
> "How can they think they have the right to discuss this without their presence?" said Francine Dumas, of the Rassemblement Outaouais contre la guerre ....



This, from the _Toronto Sun_:


> G8 and G20 meetings and protesters go together like ice-cream and pie.
> 
> And Monday’s G8 Foreign Minister’s meeting in Gatineau will be no different, with protesters outlining their plans Thursday.
> 
> Dylan Penner, a spokesman with the Council of Canadians, said they protest the global economic leaders’ meetings whenever they can because it’s a “fundamentally undemocratic institution” that is a “barrier” to social, economic, and environmental “justice.”
> 
> The protest, outside the Chateau Cartier in Gatineau, will kick-off a whole year marked by demonstrations as G8 and G20 summits are planned in Huntsville and Toronto this summer.
> 
> While anti-globalization protests have occasionally turned violent — even deadly — Penner said Monday’s is expected to be “family-friendly.”
> 
> But Christine Jones, co-chair of the Canadian Peace Alliance, said violence at many rallies isn’t instigated by the protesters, but rather the government — by embedding “agents provocateurs” amongst the protesters — trying to “criminalize” the movement.
> 
> At the North American Leaders Conference in Montebello, Que. in 2007, the Quebec Provincial Police later admitted it had three undercover officers dressed as protesters, complete with bandanas covering their faces. They denied they were there to incite violence.
> 
> Penner said before large protests get underway in Huntsville and Toronto, he wants the government to promise it won’t do that again.



This, from the Ottawa Peace Assembly blog:


> MOBILIZE FOR GLOBAL JUSTICE
> 
> 4-6PM, MARCH 29, 2010
> 
> PROTEST THE G8 FOREIGN MINISTERS MEETING
> CHATEAU CARTIER, IN GATINEAU
> 
> The G8 will be meeting once again in an effort to undermine economic, social, and environmental justice. Invite your friends to the event on Facebook. Spread the word far and wide. And join us in the streets to reject the policies of the G8 and G20 on Monday, March 29 .... FROM OTTAWA, TAKE STO BUS #40, 41, 44, 45, 46, OR 47 FROM THE RIDEAU CENTRE TO CHATEAU CARTIER. There is a bus stop across the street from Chateau Cartier. For a map of the area around Chateau Cartier (which is located at 1170 Chemin Aylmer), visit: http://tinyurl.com/yjmzzvu ....



- Rassemblement Outaouais contre la guerre - "Qui sommes-nous ?" (Google English translation of "Who Are We?")
- Ottawa Peace Assembly
- No War web page (remember their "Send a zucchini for peace" campaign?), which includes some anti-war, anti-globalization protest information 

_- edited to add Toronto Sun coverage -_


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## The Bread Guy

*G20 summit security to be 'massive'*
Inner security zone will be protected by a 3-metre fence and five layers of security
Jennifer Yang, Toronto Star, 23 Mar 10
Article link


> Access to the innermost security zone during the G20 weekend will be controlled by a 3-metre-high fence and five levels of security screening, a summit official said Tuesday.
> 
> These were among the few details shared with more than 100 property managers and company representatives who attended Tuesday morning’s “G20 summit preparedness workshop,” hosted by the Building Owners and Managers Association (BOMA).
> 
> BOMA represents more than 700 commercial real estate companies in the GTA, and workshop attendees included everyone from Ryerson University representatives to financial district property managers, all anxious to know how they can prepare for June 26 and 27, when the world descends upon their neighbourhood.
> 
> Speaking at the workshop was Const. Ed Boltuc, a Toronto police officer and community liaison with the Integrated Security Unit, the RCMP-led team tasked with overseeing security for the back-to-back G8 and G20 summits.
> 
> Security efforts are already promising to be bigger than anything Canada has seen before, and in Toronto, many residents and businesses have expressed concern. On Tuesday, Boltuc reassured workshop participants that G20 organizers are striving to minimize the summit’s footprint.
> 
> But when describing the scale of the impending security efforts, Boltuc didn’t mince words.
> 
> “The Olympics that you saw recently in Vancouver was actually the largest security event ever to take place here in Canada. The G20/G8 surpasses that completely,” Boltuc said. “There’s going to be a massive — absolutely massive — presence of police and security on the ground like you’ve never seen before.” ....



_More on link_


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## zipperhead_cop

> “The Olympics that you saw recently in Vancouver was actually the largest security event ever to take place here in Canada. The G20/G8 surpasses that completely,” Boltuc said. “There’s going to be a massive — absolutely massive — presence of police and security on the ground like you’ve never seen before.” ....



That just means the gear boxes will wreck stuff outside the perimeter.  No idiot is going to be denied his chance to break windows and throw heavy objects at police from a distance.  

Sucks to be a small business owner along the outer perimeter   (Good luck to any Starbucks in those areas)


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## mariomike

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> That just means the gear boxes will wreck stuff outside the perimeter.  No idiot is going to be denied his chance to break windows and throw heavy objects at police from a distance.



There will be no Paramedic vacations in this city during it. They have scheduled 6,000 hours of overtime. That sounds like just the tip of the iceberg.


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## The Bread Guy

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> That just means the gear boxes will wreck stuff outside the perimeter.  No idiot is going to be denied his chance to break windows and throw heavy objects at police from a distance.


Maybe even (foolishly stupidly) have a go at the fence itself?  Note highlighted bit below, here from Anarchist news dot org:


> .... Join us in Toronto for an anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian, anti-colonial, anti-racist, anti-patriarchy, anti-ableist, and queer positive convergence June 25-27, 2010. Below are the actions we are calling for...
> [This call out is one part lefty code words and one party crazy talk. Could someone translate it?]
> 
> Get Off the Fence! June 26, 2010
> Saturday afternoon, after the permitted march.
> Exact time and location TBA
> 
> *A 3 meter high perimeter fence, with military style checkpoints will be erected in downtown Toronto during the G20 meetings, offering us a hint of the world they seek to impose. It’s time to stop sitting on the fence and start tearing that fucker down.* Join us on Saturday afternoon, immediately following the Labour Union rally, for a militant march to the summit!
> 
> Saturday Night Fever! June 26, 2010
> Late night Saturday
> Exact time and location TBA
> 
> On Saturday night, before we run them out of town the next day, there will be a radical dance party in the streets. Put on your fiercest clothes and boogie like Emma Goldman. Fuck the clubs; there's no cover but your mask.
> 
> Autonomous Direct Action! June 27, 2010
> Location: EVERYWHERE
> Time: Sunday
> 
> As the G20 delegates wrap things up and prepare to spread like a virus across the globe, our resistance will do the same. This will be a day of diverse, decentralized actions against the corporate and state structures that have dominated our lives far beyond the G20 summit. These coordinated actions will end at a specific (to be announced) time, and will culminate in a...
> 
> Victory demo! June 27, 2010
> Sunday Afternoon
> Exact time and location TBA
> 
> Don’t leave town just yet, we’re going to end the convergence with a bang - not a whimper.
> 
> We support a diversity of tactics. We encourage everyone to form affinity groups and execute strategic action throughout the summit and beyond. But please remember to respect local communities, develop your knowledge of local background, and remember that, good or bad, the effects of your actions endure long after the convergence has ended.
> 
> These are just a few of the actions that will take place during the convergence. We strongly encourage all those who would fight alongside us to also support the other actions called for from the 21st through the 27th, coordinated by the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, and to do so in the spirit that those actions were called by taking direction from communities on the ground. These callouts will be refined and developed over time. This is our first Call to Action ....


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## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Put on your fiercest clothes and *boogie like Emma Goldman*.








Emma Goldman; party animal  ;D



> This will be a day of diverse, decentralized actions against the corporate and state structures that have dominated our lives


Yep, Starbucks is going to take a beating.... for oppressing the latte crowd....bastards.


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## The Bread Guy

Emma, partyin' like it's 1869!!!


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## zipperhead_cop

> It’s time to stop sitting on the fence and start tearing that fucker down



I would bet a paycheque that the clown that wrote that will not be within ten blocks of one of the fences.  Big words.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Doubtless the pathetic glob that _does_ attempt climb the fence to his everlasting regret will truly believe he is striking a devastating blow for social justice  :


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## stukirkpatrick

I put my name in for these...  they're starting to look exciting!   >


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## zipperhead_cop

Sierra Kilo said:
			
		

> I put my name in for these...  they're starting to look exciting!   >



Make no mistake; unless all hell is breaking loose, anybody in green will be kept well under wraps and out of sight.  Look forward to deep woods biting insect OP's and GD's inside the perimeter.


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## Greymatters

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> That just means the gear boxes will wreck stuff outside the perimeter.  No idiot is going to be denied his chance to break windows and throw heavy objects at police from a distance.
> 
> Sucks to be a small business owner along the outer perimeter   (Good luck to any Starbucks in those areas)



The same types of clowns who launched their 'affirmative action' at the Olympics and really taught society a lesson... not.


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## The Bread Guy

This, from MERX (highlights mine - PDF attached if link doesn't work):
".... The intent of this Letter of Interest (LOI) is to invite contractors to express their interest and availability to participate in a project to supply Coach Buses for the transportation of RCMP/OPP personnel and their personal duty-related belongings, to and from various facilities for the 2010 G8 and G20 Summit(s). This service requirement will be broken out into several work streams required to transport varying numbers of individuals, at different times, to a variety of locations over several days. For the G8 Summit, the RCMP/OPP will require approximately 4000 personnel with duty-related belongings to be transported at different dates, times and locations. For the G20 Summit the RCMP will require approximately 5600 personnel with duty-related belongings to be transported at different dates, times and locations.

The proposed service will be required between June 10th, 2010 and June 30th, 2010 services will mainly be required within the general vicinity of Huntsville, Ontario and the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). Other locations requiring this service include Dryden, Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie ...."
_Reference Number  	PW-$TOR-002-5310
Solicitation Number 	08A33-090442/A_

_- edited to fix title -_


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## The Bread Guy

I've cobbled together all the resource links listed above here - let me know if there's more out there that are useful.


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## The Bread Guy

*Toronto braces for G20 logistics crunch*
Late-June summit could cause trouble for commuters, island airport users and baseball fans, as well as downtown residents
Anna Mehler Paperny, Globe and Mail, 2 Apr 10
Article link


> When the G20 comes to Toronto in June, it promises to bring not only the planet’s most powerful leaders and a cast of thousands but a slew of logistic and transit hassles in the city’s downtown core.
> 
> Subway lines and the underground PATH system pass through a security zone – an “interdiction" area – that will feature identification checkpoints and traffic diversion.
> 
> Baseball fans, as many as 40,000 of them, could have a difficult time getting to the June 26 game to see former Jay Roy Halladay pitch for the Philadelphia Phillies because of disruptions to local traffic, the TTC and GO Train service. The GO trains that run directly behind the convention centre will likely be halted at specific times during the two-day summit, depending on the whereabouts of heads of state.
> 
> RCMP Sergeant Michelle Paradis, a spokeswoman for the Integrated Security Unit, said none of these services will be shut down entirely due to G20 security, but it's still not clear where there will be delays or rerouted traffic, and what aspects of the PATH will be closed – and when.
> 
> “There will probably be restrictions, whether it be traffic restrictions or pedestrian," Sgt. Paradis said, adding that the goal is for transit restrictions to be minimal ....




*Limited Access*
Ottawa Citizen, 3 Apr 10
Article link


> As the dean of activist organizations, Greenpeace ought to be above self-defeating publicity gimmicks, but apparently not. The group did the public no favours by climbing on top of the Parliament Buildings last December.
> 
> Briefing notes obtained under an access to information application show that the Privy Council and the RCMP were, not surprisingly, highly disturbed by the security breach.
> 
> (....)
> 
> The isolation of public officials is certain to define the G8 and G20 conferences coming up in three months in Huntsville and Toronto. Already Toronto is mounting the biggest security operation the city has seen. Businesses near the conference area, from small restaurants to the TD Bank, are telling employees to stay home that day.
> 
> The tight security will affect 28,000 residents of the immediate area, plus tens of thousands coming to the stadium just east of the conference, where former Blue Jay Roy Halladay will pitch for the first time since he was traded to the Philadelphia Phillies. Weddings at some downtown churches have been cancelled.
> 
> Canada will survive a few postponed weddings. But how times have changed. The CBC recently showed footage from the 1950s of Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip touring Ottawa. The royals visited Parliament Hill in an open convertible, with the public lining their route. No metal detectors, just a thin line of relaxed police officers.
> 
> We can't go back to those days. But it does no good for Greenpeace, PETA and others to push us into tighter and tighter security, until an American-style cordon of soldiers and fences divides the leaders from the people completely.


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## The Bread Guy

*Taxpayers’ group decries spending on G8, G20 summits*
Linda Nguyen, Canwest News Service, 4 Apr 10
Article link


> It is being billed as one of the largest security events ever held in Canada.
> 
> But just three months before the tiny community of Huntsville and Toronto play host to the G8 and G20 summits, respectively, a taxpayers group is questioning whether the-millions of dollars spent to prepare for the events is worth it.
> 
> The federal government is expected to spend $179.4-million on security and planning for both summits, which begin June 25 in Huntsville in the heart of Ontario's cottage country and end June 27 in Toronto, about 200 kilometres to the south.
> 
> The majority of these funds will go toward the RCMP, with the force getting $131.7-million. The remaining cost is split between the Department of Public Safety, the Department of National Defence, Industry Canada and Canada's spy agency -- CSIS. The Canadian Forces, along with provincial and municipal police forces will also have a presence during the three-day event.
> 
> Kevin Gaudet with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation said that instead of spending-millions the government should rein in the cost of these "lavish" events, particularly since the country is getting over a recession.
> 
> "They shouldn't spend a penny," he said in Toronto. "There's crazy spending going on and we don't need these events. How many times do we need to get politicians together to have champagne and caviar at the taxpayers' expense?" ....


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## The Bread Guy

This from the _Globe & Mail_:


> Police forces have entered into an alliance to deal with the threat of violent protest at Toronto’s G20 summit with as many as 10,000 uniformed officers and 1,000 private security guards teaming up to protect world leaders.
> 
> Federal contract tenders obtained by The Globe indicate a small army will descend on Canada's largest city this June, exceeding the estimated 6,000-police-officer presence at Vancouver’s 2010 Olympics.
> 
> The police security will come at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars, although police officials would not confirm deployment numbers. Yet federal contract tenders posted online indicate how things are shaping up.
> 
> “For the G8 Summit [in Deerhurst, Ont.] the RCMP/OPP will require approximately 4,000 personnel with duty-related belongings to be transported at different dates, times and locations,” reads a contract tendered for shuttle buses. “For the G20 Summit, the RCMP will require approximately 5,600 personnel with duty-related belongings to be transported at different dates, times and locations.”
> 
> Spokeswoman RCMP Sergeant Michele Paradis said yesterday “we won’t ever give out the number,” of police assigned to the Group of 20 meetings, set to be held inside downtown’s Metro Convention Centre on the June 25 weekend, and the Group of Eight meeting that immediately precedes it at the Deerhurst Resort north of the city.
> 
> The RCMP-led Integrated Security Unit, to be buttressed by non-Mountie police officers seconded to the ISU, has the responsibility of protecting VIPs. And several specialized police units -- SWAT teams, intelligence analysts, motorcade escorts -- are expected to fly down from Deerhurst for the Toronto summit.
> 
> On top of all that, a new federal “letter of interest” seeks to hire a contractor who can provide airport-style security at various checkpoints.
> 
> “The contractor will be required to provide approximately 1,030 security screening personnel to perform pedestrian screening in designated areas,” the letter reads.
> 
> The tender doesn’t say where the guards will be stationed, but they are to be outfitted with “Magnetometers,” “walk-through metal detectors,” “X-Ray belt driven scanners” and “hand-held metal detectors.” ....



MERX search:  G8
MERX search:  G20


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## The Bread Guy

A little bit of organizational detail, courtesy of xtra.ca - highlights mine:


> Organizers are calling this summer’s G8 and G20 summits “the largest security event in Canadian history” — more expensive and elaborate, even, than the Vancouver Olympics. The federal government will spend at least $179 million on security, first at the Huntsville G8 Summit and then in Toronto, where the G20 will meet at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.
> 
> It’s the cost of holding one of the world’s most divisive meetings in a major city, where dissenters cannot be kept out of sight. The G8 and G20 have become flashpoints for protests about social justice, environmentalism and anti-globalization.
> 
> Here in Toronto, activists have been planning for the meetings since last spring but kicked into high gear with a flurry of press releases in March. They are working hard to build something as different as possible from the exclusive closed-door meetings of the G8 and G20.
> 
> “The G8/G20 represent a small minority of wealthy countries in the world, and their priorities tend to reflect free-market neoliberal economics and imperialist security,” says Marya Folinsbee, coordinator of the G8/G20 People’s Summit, planned for June 18–27 in Toronto. “And so, at the People’s Summit, our intention is to make space available for the voices of diverse communities around Toronto and around the world, to challenge the supremacy of the G8 and G20.”
> 
> *The People’s Summit is really a conference, backed by a steering committee that incorporates labour, environmental, student and social justice groups.* Queers have already received shout-outs in the advance materials.
> 
> “I think the G20 is invading space that Pride Toronto created. The Pride festival is being impacted by the G20,” says Folinsbee. “But I think that really the People’s Summit is about solidarity amongst all people who are affected by the oppressive systems that are currently in place. It’s about system change.”
> 
> *Organizers say they won't dictate the content of the summit, nor will they handle protest plans. A separate organization, the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, will run events and assist protesters.
> 
> “We’re supporting transportation, food, communications and logistics to people who are in agreement with our basic understanding,” says Syed Hussan, one of the group’s organizers. That understanding calls for “Indigenous sovereignty and self-determination, income equity and community control over resources, migrant justice and an end to war and occupation, gender justice, queer rights and disability rights, and climate and environmental justice.”
> 
> What the understanding does not include, however, is any specific agreement on demonstration tactics — admittedly a difficult thing for any diverse group of activists to agree on.
> 
> “We believe that there’s a lot of violence that the G8 and G20 are inflicting on communities around the world, and it’s not our place to tell people how to respond to that,” says Hussan. “Our principles are respect and solidarity, respect for people’s responses to the injustice that they face.”
> 
> The network will help train marshals, medics and legal observers, help with postering and routing, and may provide some direct-action training.*
> 
> Groups or individuals looking to submit programming for the People's Summit should check peoplessummit2010.ca for the next round of applications.
> 
> The Mobilization Network has no steering committee or affiliation with larger groups but rather a number of open committees. The next meeting will be held April 8, 6:30pm, at the 519 Community Centre. The next open planning meeting for the People’s Summit will be held April 20, 6:30pm, at the Steelworkers Hall, 25 Cecil St.



Protest OSINT links here


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from the PMO:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced today the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service.
> 
> Len Edwards, currently Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, becomes Personal representative of the Prime Minister for the G-8 and G-20 Summits, effective June 4....



From Mr. Edwards' bio:


> Leonard J. Edwards
> 
> Education
> 
> Master of History, University of Saskatchewan
> Bachelor of History, University of Saskatchewan
> 
> Professional Experience
> 
> Since March 2007
> Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
> 
> 2004-2007
> Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
> 
> 2001 - 2004
> Deputy Minister of International Trade
> 
> 1998 - 2001
> Ambassador of Canada to Japan
> 
> 1994 - 1997
> Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia and Pacific, then Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade and Economic Policy, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1991 - 1994
> Ambassador of Canada to the Republic of Korea
> 
> 1988 - 1991
> Director General, Corporate Management Bureau, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1983 - 1988
> Counsellor, Canadian Permanent Mission to the United Nations (Geneva), then Executive Director, Summits Management Office, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1978 - 1983
> Deputy Director, Pacific Division and Northeast Asia Division, then Deputy Chairman, Secretariat for Policy Planning, International Affairs, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1973 - 1978
> First Secretary and Consul, Ankara, then Political Officer, NATO Secretariat, Brussels, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1971 - 1973
> Permanent Representative, Hanoi, then Desk Officer, East Asia Division, Foreign Affairs and International Trade
> 
> 1969 - 1971
> Foreign Service Officer, International Affairs; then Legal Advisor, Saigon, Foreign Affairs and International Trade


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> With the 2010 G8 summit just over two months away, civil society groups from around the world spent Friday meeting with G8 representatives in Vancouver.
> 
> Members from more than 60 non-governmental organizations, health, and labour groups met with G8 "sherpas," or top civil servants who advise their respective leaders.
> 
> Anti-poverty and climate-change advocates urged leaders to come to the June 25-27 summit in Huntsville, Ont., with meaningful ideas on how to combat poverty and global warming ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from the _Toronto Sun_, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> Canadian border officers are on alert for “professional agitators,” fearing they’ll cause trouble at the G8 and G20 Summits.
> 
> More than 10,000 cops — more than the 6,000 required at B.C. Winter Games — will form a security ring around the Metro Convention Centre to safeguard those attending the G20 on June 26-27. World leaders, including U.S. President Barack Obama, and hundreds of delegates will take part in the Toronto event.
> 
> The G8 will be held in Huntsville on June 25-26.
> 
> Border officials have circulated photos and are prepared to ban entry of hundreds of hard-core protestors.
> 
> Branded “professional agitators” by police agencies, they’re blamed for problems at a G20 summit in Pittsburgh last December, at a World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle in 1999, and Summit of the Americas in Quebec City in 2001.
> 
> Toronto city councillor Adam Vaughan has asked Ottawa to post a bond to cover potential damage caused by protesters.
> 
> “We haven’t heard anything back from them,” he added.
> 
> Vaughan said the event will cost taxpayers millions of dollars in overtime pay to city staff needed to perform summit-related work.
> 
> “Almost one-quarter of my ward (Trinity-Spadina, Ward 20) will be in a state of lockdown,” he said.
> 
> “There are many businesses and residents who will be affected by this.” Patrizia Giolti, of the Canada Border Services Agency, said officers examine a person’s background and criminal record before they’re allowed into the country.
> 
> “Planning to attend a lawful protest in Canada is not in itself grounds for being inadmissible,” said Giolti. “Admissibility of all travellers seeking to enter Canada is considered on a case-by-case basis.”
> 
> Giolti refused to discuss the agitators who are redflagged and banned from entering the country.
> 
> “Any traveller coming into Canada could be referred for secondary inspection,” she said. “Referrals may be made for a number of reasons.”
> 
> Ottawa is funding an RCMP-led task force called the Integrated Security Unit to oversee security for the G20 and the G8 summits.
> 
> “This is one of our largest security operations ever,” said RCMP Sgt. Michele Paradis. “Our aim is to showcase Huntsville and Toronto.”
> 
> Paradis said police will speak to protestors and urge them to picket peacefully.
> 
> Meaghan Gray, of a Toronto Police G20 Planning team, said officers aren’t allowed to take holidays during the summit and many will be patrolling the downtown area.
> 
> “Most officers may be downtown but no calls for help in the city will go unanswered,” Gray said on Tuesday. “Protesters who get out of hand will be met with a measured response.”
> 
> She said traffic along the Gardiner Expressway to Pearson airport will be subject to delays from motorcades transporting leaders or their delegates.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Helicopters land at the foot of the CN Tower during a G20 practice exercise on Tuesday morning.
Photo by Steve Tustin/Toronto Star

This from the _Toronto Star_:


> Downtown Toronto got a taste of security preparation for the upcoming G20 summit Tuesday morning as two military helicopters completed a test flight around the Metro Toronto Convention Centre before landing in front of the CN Tower.
> 
> The CH-146 Griffon helicopters were spotted at about 9 a.m. circling the area above the convention centre, which will play host to the international meeting in June.
> 
> Canadian Forces Sgt. Maj. Sylvain Gallant said the flight was to test the capability of the landing area between the CN Tower and the convention centre.
> 
> The helicopters were flown in from CFB Borden, looping around the convention centre, the CN Tower, and nearby condos before landing on a stretch of grass on the south side of the CN Tower.
> 
> After the landing, witnesses reported seeing *men wearing black suits getting out of the helicopters and walking towards the centre* ....



Ladies and gentlemen.....




 ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Helicopters land at the foot of the CN Tower during a G20 practice exercise on Tuesday morning.
> Photo by Steve Tustin/Toronto Star
> 
> This from the _Toronto Star_:
> Ladies and gentlemen.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;D



I do believe it was these chaps


----------



## PMedMoe

Or these guys?






 ;D

Although, at least Dan Akroyd is Canadian.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Although, at least Dan Akroyd is Canadian.


And it helps that both Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones are still alive


----------



## PMedMoe

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And it helps that both Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones are still alive



They could always substitute Jim for John.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> They could always substitute Jim for John.



People have tried a couple of times. It just doesn't work. The only thing similar is the name. Nothing against Jim, but he ain't John.


----------



## PMedMoe

recceguy said:
			
		

> People have tried a couple of times. It just doesn't work. The only thing similar is the name. Nothing against Jim, but he ain't John.



Oh, I agree.  How about John Goodman instead?






At least he's still alive.


----------



## mariomike

When men in black were no joke.
"I'm gonna find what it is you love the most and kill it.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQS16P2m2Lc

Apparently, Farina actually served 18 years on the Chicago P.D. before becoming an actor.

Gotta love the '59 Ford V8!


----------



## The Bread Guy

... coinciding with a meeting of G8 development ministers - this, from thecoast.ca:


> “Family-friendly” is one term we never hear connected to G8 protests but this year the Halifax-Dartmouth District Labour Council has asked protesters to be safe, not violent. In the past, protests in Canadian cities and around the world have aimed to shut down the meetings, almost at any cost. Not this year, Kyle Buott, president of the labour council, says. “There is no possibility of violence at these protests whatsoever.”
> 
> Buott says the group’s goals are to inform the public and to build momentum for the anti-G8 movement. “The leadership of the G8 is responsible for the economic and social policies that have caused the economic crisis that is wrecking the lives of millions of workers around the world,” he says.
> 
> Halifax is hosting the Group of Eight (G8) development ministers April 26 to 28 in advance of the June G20 conference in Toronto. However, several local groups say the decisions made at these meetings reinforce the global divide between rich and poor countries. The labour council is mobilizing a “G8 Welcoming Committee” to peacefully object the meetings.
> 
> During a Peasants Day event on the Common last week, held in solidarity with the anti-G8 resistance, organizer Aaron Beale encouraged attendees to say “no” to corporate control of food by planting gardens and buying local. Protesters hula-hooped under cloudy skies and munched on free vegetables, pita bread and apple crisp.
> 
> Halifax Regional Police spokesperson Brian Palmeter doesn’t expect this weekend’s rallies to be violent. “We’ll be prepared to deal with anything should we be required to, but we hope that people will, if they feel the need to protest, that they’ll come down and do it lawfully,” Palmeter says.
> 
> Though this year’s G8 meeting focuses on maternal and child health, the Feminist League for Agitation Propaganda plans to protest the lack of abortion and contraception on the agenda. “We’re critical of the G8’s existence and we’re upset that the agenda of maternal and child health is so narrow,” says member Emily Davidson.
> 
> *FLAP and others plan to make their voices heard April 25 in Victoria Park at 1:30pm and April 26 in Cornwallis Park at 7am.*



Links to (a bit) more detailed agendas for events on 25 Apr 10, 26 Apr 10 and 27 Apr 10.

A bit on FLAP's work:


> The G8 development ministers’ meeting will have limited benefits for women, despite its proclaimed focus on maternal and child health, according to Jane Kirby.  Kirby is an organizer with the Feminist League for Agitation and Propaganda (FLAP), a new group organizing a feminist resistance to the G8 meeting in Halifax.
> 
> From the perspective of the G8 leaders “maternal health means just giving birth - nothing  else around women’s health or child health matters,” says Kirby. Harper plans to exclude discussion of contraception and abortion when family planning is discussed among the development ministers of the Group of Eight, which includes Canada, the United States, France, Germany, Japan, the United Kingdom, Italy and Russia.
> 
> Twenty million unsafe abortions are carried out each year, according to the World Health Organization, notes Kaley Kennedy, also a FLAP organizer.  She finds it unacceptable that abortion access and safety are not on the Maternal Health agenda of the development ministers’ meeting ....



Something of a thumbail manifesto from FLAP attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from metronews.ca/halifax:


> Halifax Regional Police say they’re “prepared to respond if required” to any protests that might turn violent at next week’s G8 meeting of international development ministers in Halifax.
> 
> The three-day meeting begins Monday at Pier 21 and will lay the groundwork for talks on maternal and child health issues for the G8 and G20 summits in Toronto on June 25 to 27.
> 
> “We will be monitoring it and responding if required,” police spokesman Const. Brian Palmeter said.
> 
> “It’s our hope that should anybody attend, they’ll do so and conduct themselves in a lawful manner, which will preclude any need for police intervention.”
> 
> HRP has a Public Safety Unit trained to deal with large groups of people and Palmeter said they would be put into action if required.
> 
> About 300 are expected to attend a rally and march in opposition of the G8 meeting in Halifax Sunday at Victoria Park at 2 p.m.
> 
> Kyle Buott of the Halifax-Dartmouth and District Labour Council is part of the rally organizing committee and says “there is no possibility of violence breaking out” for what is described as a peaceful, family friendly event.
> 
> Buott expects the peacefulness to continue throughout the conference, too.
> 
> “It’s a very small, side meeting of the G8,” he said. “We don’t anticipate anybody coming in from out of town.”



Updated 2010 G8-G20 Summit Protests information links page here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> .... The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) have a requirement for the provision of food services to their Integrated Security Force and the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) during the operational phase of the 2010 G8 Summit in the Huntsville, Ontario area. The service is required 24 hours a day during the period from June 18, 2010 to June 27, 2010 at ten different locations. Four to five of these locations will require on-site kitchen facilities. The work will also include the set-up and take down the sites, security during set-up and take down, all required cleaning services, garbage and waste collection and disposal.
> 
> Interested Bidders must sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement prior to receiving the Bid Solicitation document. The Non-Disclosure Agreement can be obtained by downloading the solicitation attached to this Notice of Proposed Procurement. Instructions for submitting this document to the Contracting Authority are included in the downloaded document. The complete Bid Solicitation will be forwarded once the Contracting Authority receives the signed Non-Disclosure Agreement.
> 
> It is mandatory that the Bidder or a representative of the Bidder visit the work site. Arrangements have been made for site visit to be held on April 27, 2010 at 10:00 am at Deerhurst Resort, Huntsville, Ontario. Bidders must communicate with the Contracting Authority no later than 1 day before the scheduled visit to confirm attendance and provide the names of the person(s) who will attend. Bidders will be required to sign an attendance form. Bidders should confirm in their bids that they have attended the site visit. Bidders who do not attend or send a representative will not be given an alternative appointment and their bids will be rejected as non-compliant. Any clarifications or changes to the bid solicitation resulting from the site visit will be included as an amendment to the bid
> solicitation ....



Not all that much more here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> Toronto police will be using an old movie studio as a temporary jail in anticipation of likely arrests during protests at this June's G20 summit.
> 
> The east-end facility is about five kilometres from the Metro Toronto Convention Centre where leaders and delegations from the world's top 20 economies will be meeting on June 26 and 27.
> 
> Police say the facility will allow the timely processing of those arrested.
> 
> Its location will put it outside the two security zones that will surround the meeting ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Toronto Media Co-op site:


> Activists protesting the G20 are claiming that numerous visits by police in recent weeks have involved intimidation and harassment.
> 
> According to multiple sources, in the last month police have visited university groups, political meetings, union offices and individuals involved in protesting the G20.
> 
> Police began visiting groups like the Toronto Community Mobilization Network (TCMN) on February 21, 2010 when they held a meeting for 'G8/20 Resistance in Toronto'.
> 
> According to Terrance Luscombe, a member of the TCMN, plain clothes police showed up claiming they were trying to keep channels open around the G20 to ensure nothing bad happens. “We told them that this wasn't the space.  They left and they let us know that they were going to be waiting outside the meeting the entire time in an unmarked car,” he said.
> 
> Two weeks later, police showed up to a student group general meeting at York University. Tom Keefer, a student facilitating the meeting said that two young looking police officers came into the meeting and signed in. One was from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and the other was from the Toronto Police Service (TPS). The officers were asked to leave. According to Keefer, “They went away and then when the meeting was breaking up they came back in. People said ‘This is not appropriate’ and that they should leave their info and someone would contact them.”
> 
> Elley Newman, a board member of the group does not believe that the police were trying to just keep channels open. “I think they're try to figure out what people are doing for protests so they can prepare for how to deal with it and so it's easier for them to try to shut protests down.  I think it is dishonest trying to go into a safe space where people are organizing as an infiltrator. They say ‘We want to work with you’, which I don't think is realistic or the case.” ....



More on link or attached PDF if link doesn't work.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press - highlights mine:


> A broad coalition of social justice and environmental groups marched peacefully through Halifax on Sunday to voice their opposition to this week's meeting of G8 development ministers.
> 
> Calling themselves the G8 Welcoming Committee, organizers said they were trying to send a message to the ministers who were gathering in Halifax this week in advance of a larger G20 meeting in Ontario this summer.
> 
> "The G8 is a symbol of a lot of the things that are wrong with our society," said Kyle Buott of the Halifax-Dartmouth District Labour Council.
> 
> "Specifically their policies on economics have caused the economic crisis that countries find themselves in and have wrecked the lives of about three billion people," he said.
> 
> *Police maintained a heavy presence along the march route steering about 300 protesters away from shop fronts in one of the city's busiest business districts.
> 
> Security was especially tight around a dozen people wearing black hoodies and masks, but there were no incidents* ....


----------



## zipperhead_cop

> Elley Newman, a board member of the group does not believe that the police were trying to just keep channels open. “I think they're try to figure out what people are doing for protests so they can prepare for how to deal with it and so it's easier for them to try to shut protests down.  I think it is dishonest trying to go into a safe space where people are organizing as an infiltrator. They say ‘We want to work with you’, which I don't think is realistic or the case.” ....



Aw, boo hoo. The little social agitators can't be faceless, unidentified crowd stirrers.  Their actions might have consequences.  The City Of Toronto might just have some names to put in a law suit after it is done.  
What a pity!  What a blow for social justice!  Makes me want to chant "SHAME" over and over for no apparent reason  :

Awesome that hippies can't spot a decoy when they are presented with one though.  Yes, the dumb tools of the oppressive regime sent two clean cut white males doubtlessly in suits and mirrored aviator sunglasses as their best effort to "participate" and ****SHOCK***** they got kicked out.  Boy, those cops are dumb!   ^-^


----------



## PMedMoe

*G8 protester arrested in Halifax*

One protester was arrested Monday morning during a noisy anti-G8 demonstration in Halifax.

About 40 people marched down Terminal Road to Pier 21, where development ministers from major industrial countries are set to meet.

Two officers struggled with a woman when police tried to move the demonstrators to a sidewalk to clear the road, said CBC reporter Phonse Jessome.

Laurie Stacy, a protester who was standing nearby, said the heavy-handed treatment was unnecessary.

"They had asked her just to move. We said we were moving, but they didn't give her enough time. The cop in charge grabbed her by her shoulder and started squeezing and just looked at her with pure hate," said Stacy.

"She told them, 'Let go of me.' They didn't. The next thing you know three of them were on top of her on the ground."

The arresting officer told CBC News that the protester pushed him.

More on link


----------



## Journeyman

From the same link, 


> Protest organizers identified the demonstrator as Toni MacAfee, an education officer with the Canadian Union of Postal Workers


Do you think this "education officer" learned anything from this?


Nah, me neither


----------



## vonGarvin

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> *G8 protester arrested in Halifax*
> 
> One protester was arrested Monday morning during a noisy anti-G8 demonstration in Halifax.
> 
> About 40 people marched down Terminal Road to Pier 21, where development ministers from major industrial countries are set to meet.
> 
> Two officers struggled with a woman when police tried to move the demonstrators to a sidewalk to clear the road, said CBC reporter Phonse Jessome.
> 
> Laurie Stacy, a protester who was standing nearby, said the heavy-handed treatment was unnecessary.
> 
> "They had asked her just to move. We said we were moving, but they didn't give her enough time. The cop in charge grabbed her by her shoulder and started squeezing and just looked at her with pure hate," said Stacy.
> 
> "She told them, 'Let go of me.' They didn't. The next thing you know three of them were on top of her on the ground."
> 
> The arresting officer told CBC News that the protester pushed him.


The text in yellow is one side of the story, eg: The Man oppressing the poor woman.  The text in red is the other side of the story, eg: the protestor pushed a police officer.


----------



## George Wallace

More on the Halifax Protest by approx 40 pers, some wearing masks:

Cops arrest union leader at G-8 protest

An Atlantic union leader was arrested this morning during a protest of the G-8 development ministers' meetings in Halifax.

Union leaders say Toni MacAfee,  education and organization officer for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, was arrested behind the Westin Nova Scotian Hotel shortly after 8 a.m.

Const. Brian Palmeter, spokesman for Halifax Regional Police, confirmed "we have a female currently under arrest from down on Terminal Road. (She) was arrested for assault and resisting arrest."

It's believed the woman, whom he did not identify, was arrested for an alleged assault on a police officer. No charges have been laid. 

"It's certainly a drummed up charge," said Jeff Callaghan, the union's Atlantic director.

He was at the opposite side of the driveway behind the Hollis Street hotel when MacAfee was arrested at what he called a peaceful demonstration.

"When the cops grabbed her, she was actually two centimetres from a curb, so it wasn't a matter of blocking traffic," Callaghan said.

"They actually reached out and grabbed her and pulled her back — pulled her towards the street. There are lots of witnesses who saw it and we have the whole thing on tape."

LINK


More, plus photos, on LINK


----------



## George Wallace

You can see in the photos in the Halifax Herald, that the masked thugs/anarchists/twits/whatever you want to call them have shown up and even appear to be confrontational.


----------



## The Bread Guy

1)  More of the same expected today, according to the Canadian Press.

2)  Here's an indication of how much control protest organizers have over "the masked ones" (highlights mine):


> Protesters at a Halifax rally who cover their faces will be asked to take the masks off, says an organizer of the event on the eve of a meeting of G8 development ministers.
> 
> "When people conceal their identities, media attention focuses on them rather than on the point of the protest itself," said Kyle Buott, president of the Halifax-Dartmouth and District Labour Council and a key organizer of the rally.
> 
> *"Anyone showing up at [Sunday's] demonstration wearing a mask or bandana covering their face will be asked to take it off."*
> 
> According to the Criminal Code, wearing a mask is a crime only during the commission of another crime.
> 
> "This is the decision that the organizing committee has taken — *we are going to be engaging with folks who show up at the rally to make a political argument about why that's not an appropriate tactic,"* said Buott, who wants to make sure the group's critique of G8 policies in the developing world is heard. The ministers from the G8 countries open a three-day meeting in Halifax on Monday ....


I guess a few people didn't seem to get the memo:






3)  After where said CUPW ed/org O appears to have spent New Year's Eve, via zcommunications.org - the Gaza Freedom March in Cairo - you'd think there'd be some understanding re:  policing and gatherings:


> .... Christian Martel, of Quebec and a union leader representing Syndicat des travailleurs et travailleuses des postes, penned in on the sidewalk by police at his hotel said ":This is an illogical situation.. There is no credible reason to keep us here. We ask the authorities why they are doing this and no one can answer. They only say it is for your protection. What are they protecting us from?' The 54,000 members of the Canadian Union of Postal Workers -Syndicat de travialleurs de travailleuses des postes (CUPW-STTP) was the first national union in Canada to join the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign (BDS) against Israeli "apartheid".
> 
> At hotel Lotus where I was permitted to speak with demonstrators another postal worker told me she had been in contact with her embassy. Toni MacAfee asked by a consular official whether she was part of the Gaza Freedom March and whether she would be demonstrating any more if released. Given the Canadian governments behavior towards Canadians in foreign custody, MacAfee reported asking bluntly "are you going to help me or not?" ....



_- edited to include protests expected today (26 Apr 10) -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from CP24:


> While arrests are made at the G8 meeting protests in Halifax, Toronto police say this city should brace for major demonstrations and disruptions during the G20 in the downtown core this summer.
> 
> Police say they're tapping social media for tips on major protests to prepare for the meeting of major world leaders in June.
> 
> Const. Wendy Drummond says police have dealt with protests organized through social media in the past, and they're taking steps to prepare for the June 26/27 weekend.
> 
> "(Social media) allows people to communicate in a lot more different ways. It's just another tool," she says. "The way we police our protests hasn't changed."
> 
> Thousands of officers are expected to be out in full force as protesters descend on the downtown core at the end of June.
> 
> Drummond says they have met with some protest groups to talk about how they plan to express themselves in a peaceful manner.
> 
> But others have not talked to law enforcement officials.
> 
> "There are some groups that don't wish to participate in these advanced conversations," she says ....



Meanwhile, Big Finance is preparing:


> Two of Canada's biggest banks, the Royal Bank of Canada and Scotiabank, are considering moving their day traders to locations off of Bay Street during the G20 meetings in June, CTV has learned.
> 
> Other businesses in the financial district are asking their employees to consider taking vacation time during the meetings, with concerns that protesters may make business difficult.
> 
> "We got a notice a few days ago saying . . . you might not want to come in," a businessman told CTV Toronto, referring to the week of the G20 meetings.
> 
> Officials at the TSX say primary trading is already done off-site at an undisclosed location, but know the stock exchange could be a symbolic target for protesters, and security will be tight ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from MERX:


> .... The intent of this letter of interest (LOI) is to provide potential suppliers with the opportunity to express their interest in Canada's requirement for Food Services (Catering) in support of a Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) operation in the province of Ontario during the operational phase of the G8 summit to be held in Huntsville, Ontario.
> 
> The requirement involves the provision of Food Services (Catering) for the RCMP Barrie Unit Command Centre (UCC). For security reasons we cannot identify the locations or numbers of meals require in this LOI, as it would give an indication of the size of the security force. The requirement is significant during the period of June 18th through June 28th 2010 ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from prisonplanet.com:


> .... More than anything, it is protests and the threat of terrorism which are used to justify these huge security operations. The deployment of the military alongside police is increasing with their roles seemingly interchangeable. Police tactics and training have become more militarized. New weapons and technology first developed for the military are often being incorporated into police departments. At last year’s G20 summit in Pittsburgh, the LRAD which is capable of emitting painfully loud blasts of sound was turned against protesters. This illustrates a more aggressive approach in trying to control public dissent. Events such as the G20 have become a testing ground for new police state measures and a trial run for a military style occupation ....


----------



## vonGarvin

You have GOT to be shitting me...


----------



## stukirkpatrick

all I have to do is read the ads at the end of that article to see the truth in it all:



> Prison Planet.tv Members Can Watch Police State 4: The Rise Of FEMA Right Now Online - Don't Miss Out! Get Your Subscription Today!





> CANCER CONSPIRACY? Are "they" suppressing the cure? Will YOU be the next victim? Learn the Secret Truth! - READ FULL STORY



clearly I've been on the wrong side this whole time!  repent!  repent!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> You have GOT to be ******** me...


Just a taste of what  some of the "protesters" seem to think (or believe enough to write with their name attached).

Meanwhile, think of it as "distributed protest" - this from the _Globe & Mail_:


> Anti-globalization protestors will have their voices heard by world leaders in Toronto this summer -- by video link.
> 
> Security agencies are routing dissenters to Trinity Bellwoods park on Queen Street West, three kilometres from the G20 meeting at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.
> 
> An RCMP spokeswoman, Sergeant Michele Paradis, said a video link at the park will pipe the protestors' grievances in to the high-security bubble surrounding the centre where world leaders will gather during the June weekend.
> 
> "I don't know if it will be closed circuit, but there will be a feed in," she said.
> 
> Portable toilets will also be provided to the public in the park.
> 
> A protest zone will also be set up for the earlier G8 summit in Gravenhurst, Ont., but no venue has been decided as yet.
> 
> A coalition of labour and activist groups are planning a three-hour march from Queen's Park to Trinity Bellwoods on June 25. Organizers hope 5,000 people will march ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from the Canadian Press (highlights mine):


> The RCMP is looking for some essential equipment to help flush out problems at this summer's G8 summit near Huntsville, Ont. — almost 600 outhouses.
> 
> The Mounties want to have 596 porta-potties, each with minimum two-ply toilet paper, distributed around the posh Deerhurst Lodge resort, where leaders of the world's biggest economies gather for talks June 25-26.
> 
> But the single-seaters, which include disposable seat covers, are not for any of the world's leaders. Instead, they're reserved for the thousands of government workers who will need washroom breaks as they prepare for the event throughout June.
> 
> *And in a gesture of conciliation, 10 of the comfort stations have been set aside for the anti-G8 protesters expected to gather in the designated "free speech area" near the meeting site.*
> 
> The official, cordoned-off location for such protests has not yet been chosen, and RCMP won't say how many demonstrators they expect ....



According to the attached Statement of Work (since Canadian Press doesn't seem to want to share), I don't see anything saying the 10 in the "Free Speech Area" will be for the protesters - I'm _guessing_ that they'll be for the security staff there.  Maybe we'll see a MERX posting for the protesters to take care of their own logistics?  

Here's the links to the calls for shuttle flights to TO Island and for "Utility Terrain Vehicles" also mentioned in the CP story.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

> This illustrates a more aggressive approach in trying to control public dissent. Events such as the G20 have become a testing ground for new police state measures and a trial run for a military style occupation ....



Well there you go.  At least they know they are assisting in field testing public order tactics and are volunteering to be UoF subjects.  How very community minded of them to take a direct interest in making their local police the best they can possibly be!  I think we have these guys all wrong.  

Maybe the military can help out with the port-o-john situation and send over some used ones from KAF.  The Afghan style ones...  >


----------



## mellian

Uh, I am so out of the loop that I did not realize that was happening this past weekend. Then again, have not been paying attention to those emails much lately.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the _Toronto Sun_/QMI:


> TTC riders are in for lengthy delays and traffic chaos next month in the downtown core as police install fences and shut down streets to protect leaders attending the G20 Summit, officials say.
> 
> Three rings of security, incorporating miles of fencing, will be created around the Metro Convention Centre when the leaders meet June 26-27.
> 
> Some of the leaders will attend a G8 summit in Huntsville on June 25-26.
> 
> Police said there will be less parking and it will be harder to get around downtown as the meeting draws near.
> 
> “Our riders will be greatly affected,” added TTC chief general manager Gary Webster. “This will have a significant impact on the City of Toronto.”
> 
> Webster said the TTC will be working overtime to ensure riders know about road closures or route changes around the convention centre ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

RCMP seeking tents & tables to work, flights to go back & forth and tow trucks.

Edited to add:  Looking for fuel as well.


----------



## mariomike

"Take our G20 ... please!": 
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2010/05/05/13838526.html


----------



## mellian

mariomike said:
			
		

> "Take our G20 ... please!":
> http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2010/05/05/13838526.html



*"How about Montreal? Quebec City? Trois-Rivieres?"*

Gahh, not Montreal, not Montreal! Or even Ottawa! Actually, keep it out of Canada!

Is it even worth the cost of having half of the G8 and G20 meetings in Canada? Since the public has no access, can they not just privately keep to themselves when and where they will have the meetings, and then spring ot upon that location in the last minute. That way, they have their meeting and do not need to spend so much on security as protesters would be totally caught off guard. 

As is now, advertising the meetings some time ahead and planning for huge security measures is just asking for it, also making the natural rallying point for all protests against...whatever related to the meeting somehow.


----------



## The Bread Guy

*NORAD exercise planned for South-Central Ontario Region*
NORAD news release, May 5, 2010
Link


> The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) and the Canadian NORAD Region (CANR) will conduct Exercise Amalgam Virgo this week in the south-central Ontario region in support of preparations for the G8 and G20 Summits.
> 
> The exercise, which will be conducted May 6-7, will involve Canadian Forces CF-18 Hornet fighter jets and CH-124 Sea King and CH-146 Griffon helicopters flying at low altitudes. Residents in the exercise area may hear aircraft noise and perhaps see aircraft flying at various times throughout the day.
> 
> NORAD maintains aircraft assets throughout North America in order to support its bi-national mission of aerospace warning and control for North America. As the Canadian geographical component of NORAD, CANR provides airspace surveillance and control, and directs all air sovereignty activities for the Canadian NORAD Region.
> 
> Training is conducted in a disciplined manner and in a professional environment to ensure NORAD’s rapid response capability.  To maintain the integrity of its air defense mission, NORAD will not discuss specific details of the exercises.
> 
> -30-



A bit more from CanWest here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the National Post:


> Toronto police say the G20 summit’s Designated Protest Area will not be in Trinity Bellwoods Park as planned because of local residents’ discomfort with it.
> 
> “Following discussions with the community in and around the Trinity-Bellwoods area, a decision was made to find an alternate location for the Designated Speech Area. We are currently considering options,” police said in a release this afternoon.
> 
> The decision was made together by the City of Toronto and the G8-G20 Integrated Security Unit, which includes several police forces and the Canadian Forces ....



TPS news release attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from CTV.ca:


> Downtown restaurant owners are upset they'll have to shut down their patios for two weeks before the G20 summit begins on June 26.
> 
> "It's not affecting us for two days of the summer, it's affecting us for the entire month," said David Bagley, owner of Cora's Restaurant on Blue Jays Way.
> 
> The restaurant is just a few hundred metres from the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, where leaders of the world's 20 largest economies will gather this summer.
> 
> "With good weather, which June usually is, weekdays you're probably looking at $2,000 a day. On the weekends, especially on the weekend of the summit, it'll add up to … close to $20,000," he said.
> 
> A meeting last week didn't inform businesses about the patio restriction.
> 
> Coun. Adam Vaughan (Ward 20, Trinity-Spadina) said shotgun weddings have been planned better than the G20 summit.
> 
> "When it comes to getting the details as to how businesses, residents and local parks and even things as simple as restaurant patios will be affected, every day it's a different idea," he said.
> 
> Vaughan thought the rationale might be that violent protesters could use the patio furniture to damage other property ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> Activists are vowing to defy police and take their protest of next month's G20 summit in Toronto to the city's streets.
> 
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network says it won't stand for having protesters penned-in at designated demonstration areas.
> 
> The warning today comes after the city and the G20 security team backed off on a plan to designate a city park as a protest zone following community complaints.
> 
> The Integrated Security Unit says it would announce another designated demonstration zone as early as today ....



Meanwhile, this from the Toronto Community Mobilization Network page:


> Street Medic Orientation and Training - One
> Start: 05/09/2010 10:00
> End: 05/09/2010 14:00
> Timezone: Canada/Eastern
> 
> Want to demystify MOFIBA?
> Unclear how such a seemingly benign antacid like Maalox/TUMS will help to overthrow capitalism?
> Want to discuss radical health and care while resisting the powers that be?
> Interested in beefing up your first aid skills while theorizing beyond the fences?
> 
> Join Toronto Street Medics for the G20.... and beyond!
> 
> Street Medics 101
> Location:  Centre for Social Justice- 489 College Street, Suite 303
> 
> Introduction:
> Toronto Street Medics was established in the 90s as a collective of persons with various types of health care experience who used their skills to support their communities in protest for many different convergences. Dormant for the last few years, the arrival of the G20 in Toronto is inspiring a second coming and cause for questions about what the G8/G20 means for the health of people in this city and around the world,  what radical health(and care) is and could be,  and what the role of street medics could be during and beyond the G20.
> 
> We view the G20 as an opportunity for interested street medics to:
> 
> * Use our skills/build skills to support our communities in protest
> * Build and strengthen radical health care networks across this city, to discuss health and politics, and to discuss/work to dismantle hierarchies/structures in health care provision
> 
> This training/workshop will serve the following purposes:
> 1)      An orientation to what/who street medics are
> 2)      Provide some basic training on street medic skills (eye flushing, kit packing, wounds)
> 3)      Discussion on the connections between the G8/G20 and health, health care provision
> 4)      Discuss issues related to diversity of tactics and street medics
> 5)      Collectively assess available community resources
> 6)      Help us to collectively decide on what kind of further training is necessary  for the G20 and when this training will take place
> What we hope to come out of it:
> 1)         Better idea of persons interested in being street medics during G20 and their training needs
> 2)         Understanding of resources available to street medics G20
> 3)         Ideas related to health and resistance to G20, ideas related to how to integrate and work with other collectives coming from beyond Toronto, ideas about how to sustain a street medic project/radical health community beyond G20
> 4)         Dates for more specific medical trainings in June
> 5)         Identification of persons/organizations who can assist with support Dissemination of essential information (CPR/First Aid books) street medicine references/resources for people to read before the next trainings ....



And what is MOFIBA?  Link here for more details.

Interested in "health & safety for acivists"?  Link here.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Please oh please issue us  the taser-claymore


----------



## medicineman

You've been watching GSG-9 vs SWAT again haven't you :nod:...

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar

Yea we had a marathon at our Mess the other night.

I hate the show but the claymore taser seems pretty awesome for ruining a protesters day.


----------



## medicineman

I agree whole heartedly - pity there aren't rapidly deployable electric cattle fences that could be similarly...

MM


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from CanWest:


> Activists planning to protest next month's G20 Summit said yesterday they will continue to organize demonstrations at various locations throughout the city, despite plans by officials to confine protests to one "designated speech area" in downtown Toronto.
> 
> "The demonstrations are about issues and we will talk about these issues where it makes sense," said Syed Hussan, a spokesman for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network. "It cannot be limited to any kind of one action or one place for action."
> 
> The group said it expects thousands of people to participate in protests, forums and panel discussions during the G20 Summit from June 26 to 27 at the Metro Convention Centre.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Hussan said the idea of setting up a designated "free speech" zone is "undemocratic and authoritarian," the same ideals activists will be picketing against.
> 
> "We have a government that is hiding. They want to sell Toronto as this amazing place," he said. "They want these leaders to see the quality in our communities but obviously they want to hide us, push us out of where we live and work. This is our struggle." ....



"No," says the neighbourhood "we really, really DON'T want the protest, thanks":


> The Ontario Federation of Labour has bowed to objections from residents living near Trinity Bellwoods Park and has cancelled plans to hold a G20 demonstration there.
> 
> “The OFL has listened to the residents,” president Sid Ryan said Friday.
> 
> G20 summit security officials announced Thursday that, in the face of strong community opposition, they would not use the west-end park as a “designated speech area” for demonstrators against the international meeting of finance leaders being held in Toronto in June.
> 
> However, the OFL, in conjunction with the Canadian Labour Congress, Council of Canadians, Greenpeace and Oxfam, was still going ahead with a planned rally at the park after its G20 march on June 26.
> 
> This sparked continued neighbourhood protest, especially since some estimated attendance at the OFL march as high as 20,000.
> 
> These objections prompted the OFL to change its plans Friday. The rally will now begin and end at Queen’s Park, Ryan said ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from rabble.ca:


> MP (Trinity-Spadina) Olivia Chow's office has compiled a list of websites, contact numbers and information for Toronto residents living in and around the convention centre where the G20 summit will be held:
> 
> Access to your home or work: G8-G20 Integrated Security Unit
> 
> The G8-G20 Integrated Security Unit is in charge of security, traffic and access for the event. For information about access to your homes or offices, please visit www.G8-G20isu.ca or call 1-888-446-4047.
> 
> Security zone
> 
> There will be two fenced-off perimeters. The inner area is a "red zone" which will be secured by the RCMP. This will encompass the summit site, the Metro Convention Centre, and hotels where officials will be staying. The outer area will be secured by the Toronto Police. The exact boundaries will not be released until approximately two weeks prior to the summit.
> 
> Superintendent Tom Russell, is the planning lead from the Toronto Police Service. Constable George Tucker is the primary spokesperson and Meghan Gray from community relations and public affairs is also available.
> 
> Traffic zone
> 
> There will be an outer "traffic zone" which will cover the area between Yonge St. and Spadina Ave., King St. and Lake Ontario. This zone will remain open to pedestrians and vehicles. However, expect delays as passage will be temporarily restricted at times due to the passage of motorcades. It is highly encouraged that alternative transportation be used during the summit weekend.
> 
> Union station will remain open. TTC and GO service are not expected to be affected.
> 
> There will not be any access to the Ward's Island ferry as of June 24.
> 
> Accreditation - for easy access to the Toronto Police Security Zone
> 
> Accreditation is the voluntary process of obtaining an access card to allow residents or people who work within the outer security zone access to the secure areas of the summit.
> 
> This is intended to help people enter the zone as efficiently as possible via an express line. People will not be subjected to security checks when entering the zone with the access card but will be asked to show a piece of photo identification.
> 
> The Community Relations Group will be contacting local businesses and condominium property managers inside the outer security area in the coming weeks. Employers and property managers will then relay the information to their residents and employees.
> 
> For those who choose not to be accredited, there will be a general public entrance gate where admittance will be at the discretion of the Toronto Police. The security gates to the outer security zone will remain open as long as possible. In the case of a potential security threat, the gates will be shut and no one will be permitted to enter or exit.
> 
> Ex Gratia Payments
> 
> A dedicated line has been set up to answer your questions about compensation to potential damages or lost business opportunities. Call 1-877-750-6042 for inquiries regarding compensation applications or visit http://g20.gc.ca/important-notices/#payments
> 
> The Canadian Government has also set up a general inquiries line. Please call 1-877-G20CAN1 (1-877-420-2261) to leave a message. We have been assured by the Summit Management Office that all queries will be responded to within 48 hours ....




This from rabble.ca:


> challenges of running an independent media website.
> Call for submissions: Gearing up for the G8, G20 summits
> By rabble staff | May 6, 2010
> 
> rabble.ca is gearing up to cover the G8 and G20 summits in Huntsville and Toronto from June 25 to 27 and related events. We are currently seeking submissions from contributors (writers, bloggers, photographers and videographers) interested in examining both local and global impacts of the G8 and G20 on indigenous sovereignty, migrant justice, women's health, climate debt, the economy among other pressing issues. We are also looking for writers to consider the local effect of the security measures for the meetings.
> 
> Here are some of the events we plan to cover:
> 
> • June 16: This Magazine and rabble.ca will co-sponsor an event on maternal health initiatives (speakers to be announced soon)
> • June 18-20: People's Summit
> • June 25: Shout Out for Global Justice (organized by the Council of Canadians, media sponsor and to be livestreamed by rabble.ca)
> • June 26: People First! We Deserve Better! G8 and G20 public rally and march ....




This from the _Edmonton Journal_/CanWest:


> The recent news from Halifax was drearily predictable: a peaceful protest last month aimed at a meeting of G8 ministers ended in a small scuffle between police and 30 black-clad anarchists and the arrest of a labour organizer.
> 
> There's a good chance this sterile choreography, magnified several times, will disrupt, perhaps even dominate, the massive G8 and G20 summits scheduled for Huntsville and Toronto at the end of June. Since the battle in Seattle in 1999, any meeting of heads of states is invariably accompanied by an army of media, police and protesters, each faithfully playing their part in an increasingly shopworn drama.
> 
> It raises the question: Is the whole show -- the summit and the protests -- worth the exorbitant security costs, the injuries, the disruption to traffic, travel and life in the unfortunate host city?
> 
> (....)
> 
> As for protests, one veteran leftist laments the "crisis in creativity" when it comes to tactics. Some activists continue to justify violence under the rubric "diversity of tactics." But violence only emboldens police to retaliate; they now confine demonstrators to "free speech zones" -- protester petting zoos, far from the action.
> 
> There are countless peaceful events, too -- workshops, parties, speeches and culture-fests -- planned for the People's Summit in Toronto in the week preceding the leaders' arrival. Claudia Calabro, of the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, says her group wants to emphasize "not only what's wrong, but what's good" -- notably, the successes of community organizations helping welfare recipients.
> 
> But what the movement needs, too, is joy -- the insouciance and sense of play that fuelled the striking, mostly peaceful, rise of gay power. Teddybear catapults, Code Pink feminists, satirical street theatre -- anything to distract sensation-hungry media from the set-piece violence ....


----------



## vonGarvin

Pardon my use of the Anglo-Saxon, but fuck *them*.  I believe in freedom of expression, but that does not include teddy bear catapults and shit like that.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

If some clever dude could come up with a riot shield that had stun probed mounted in it so zap whomever was in contact with the shield, they would make a bundle.  

Meanwhile, people deployed to the G8 should suppress making fun of anyone deployed to Hippiefest G20....  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _Toronto Sun_/QMI:


> Other Islamic terrorist cells like the “Toronto 18” exist in Canada, the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service’s former top strategic planner told The Toronto Sun.
> 
> And with police and intelligence agencies preparing for world leaders’ conferences in Huntsville and Toronto in June, David Harris fears jihadists may be preparing a major disruption for visiting dignitaries.
> 
> “It stands to reason that, with the G-20 here, it offers a wonderful opportunity to Islamist extremists and radicals of all types to launch an offensive,” said Harris, a lawyer and director of the international and terrorist intelligence program at Insignis Strategic Research Inc. in Ottawa.
> 
> The “ultimate goal” of such subversives is “to kill as many of the infidels as possible,” he said Monday. “By doing so, such extremists demonstrate the radical Islamist threat writ runs in Canada and is capable of compromising any security efforts,” Harris said.
> 
> The geography of a large city or the rural area of Muskoka where the G-8 will be held, is of no concern to determined terrorists committed to a cause, he said.
> 
> The G-20 summit offers a “choice target,” Harris said.
> 
> Other than saying larger cities are their likeliest hideouts, he couldn’t disclose specifics or the location of groups similar to the 18 GTA men arrested in 2006 ....


----------



## mariomike

1) Regarding the change in venue from Trinity-Bellwoods to Queen's Park:
http://www.trinitybellwoods.ca/media-release-labour-movement-announces-new-plans-toronto-g20-rally-march-no-longer-trinity-bellwood

I was stationed at the south end of Trinity-Bellwoods. Toronto Life magazine described Trinity-Bellwoods as "a desolute drag flanked by flophouses and seedy bars". Classic "inner-city". In recent years however, there has been some "gentrification". A lot of hipsters and suburbanites have moved in.
I can't say that I blame them, or anyone, for not wanting anything to do with hosting G20 in their neighbourhood.

2) "We view the G20 as an opportunity for interested street medics to: 
•Use our skills/build skills to support our communities in protest
•Build and strengthen radical health care networks across this city, to discuss health and politics, and to discuss/work to *dismantle hierarchies/structures in health care provision*"
End Quote.

Toronto's Paramedics are the experts in street medicine. Not these people.
Nobody knows that better than Chief Bruce Farr. He joined the Department the same year I did, and has my complete confidence:
http://www.newstalk1010.com/node/1126001
http://www.newstalk1010.com/player/player?mediapath=&type=mp3&sid=81&nid=1125998&

J-EMS magazine reports that the G20 in Pittsburgh last year was "the largest EMS mobilization in the history of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania."


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Power Shift G8G20 Facebook page:


> Want To Attend The G8/G20 Summits? Join The Peoples Road Trip From Vancouver To The G8/G20
> Share
> Yesterday at 13:25
> Do you have concerns about the state of the world?
> 
> Is it Climate change and the Environment? Poverty? Economic development?  Human rights? Democracy? Whatever your concerns may be, you have a voice and your voice deserves to be heard. You are a citizen of this world too!!!
> 
> This year between June 25 -27 in Toronto, The People representing our voices are coming together for the 4th G20 summit.
> 
> This is what our PM sees as priorities to be discussed
> http://g20.gc.ca/statement-by-the-prime-minister-of-canada-2/
> 
> Might there be other priorities that you would like to see discussed?  Possibly!
> 
> So here it is: We’re offering you the opportunity to let your voice be heard in Toronto!
> 
> Join us on an epic journey from Vancouver cross country to Toronto on the People's Bus.
> 
> On June 20th people from all walks of life and with a variety of concerns will be gathering at the Vancouver Peoples Summit. After this event we’ll be leaving on our road trip to Toronto, stopping in designated areas to pick up and join caravans from other locations in Canada to arrive together in Toronto on (remove ‘the’) June 24.
> 
> You can be part of this great movement of the people!
> 
> How? Easy! read the schedule/requirements below and sign up to be part of the journey!
> 
> Start: Vancouver June 20 departing time 8pm from the Vancouver People's Summit on Main and 33rd.
> 
> Stop 1: June 21 Calgary ( location tba)
> 
> Stop 2: June 23 Winnipeg (location tba)
> 
> Arrival: June 24 Toronto ....



Post attached if link doesn't work for you.

- edited to fix links -


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from CTV.ca:


> Aboriginal protesters are planning to stage blockades at major rail routes in the days leading up to the G20 summit in Toronto, CTV Toronto has learned.
> 
> It is believed that the protest will be staged on Thursday, June 24. The G20 Summit will take place in the city's core on the weekend of June 26 and 27.
> 
> Organizers from Red Power United, one of many groups planning to protest the meeting of world leaders, said the action will be called a "national day of protest."
> 
> They will be among dozens of groups rallying during the meeting.
> 
> Union members are also expected to fill the lawn at Queen's Park at a demonstration being spearheaded by the Ontario Federation of Labour. A march through the city centre will also be likely.
> 
> "We haven't yet decided the parade route," said OFL president Sid Ryan. "We will be working it out with police, but we will be marching as closely as possible to the perimeter of the security fence." ....



Red Power United:  web page - Facebook - National Day of Action details (Facebook)

More links to G8/G20 & protest info here.

- edited to include link to article, and link to updated page o' links -


----------



## The Bread Guy

This via the _Toronto Star_:


> As the City of Toronto prepares to be the host of the G8/G20 international meetings, debates have emerged about the security arrangements.
> 
> This is neither new, nor particularly Canadian. Indeed, there is much to learn from international experience in this respect and also from our own history, painfully reviewed after the 1997 APEC Conference in Vancouver, when public outcry over unnecessary and forceful arrests, pepper spray used on peaceful protesters, and Charter violations led to a full investigation and public hearing.
> 
> The lessons from both the APEC report and the more recent international reports based on Britain’s 2009 experience policing the G20 are clear: security arrangements must start from the proposition that freedom of expression, freedom of peaceful association and public demonstration are protected aspects of international gatherings, not actions that should be impeded or eliminated.
> 
> There is a duty to facilitate peaceful protest; there is no duty to make it disappear ....



versus this in the St. John Telegraph-Journal:


> Like flies at a picnic, motley rabbles of radical leftist/anarchists can nowadays be counted on to swarm international summits anywhere on the globe, parroting anti-capitalist cant and acting out "revolutionary" fantasies.
> 
> As with the flies, they're more pest than threat, but a costly and annoying distraction for police. So it was at last month's G8 conference in Halifax, and will be at the forthcoming G20 leaders' summit in Toronto on June 26-27, with the 200-member Toronto Community Mobilization Network reportedly gearing up to coordinate G20 protests.
> 
> Their most egregious effect is expense to taxpayers and inconvenience to the public - Toronto's G20 requiring what's being described as Canada's biggest security operation since the Second World War, involving Ontario Provincial Police, RCMP and Canadian Armed Forces, with most of Toronto's financial district to be locked-down for two weeks behind three kilometres of fencing protecting a security zone around the Metro Convention Centre summit site.
> 
> *In the 1960s, the late, great, cartoonist Al Capp created a fictitious political movement he called SWINE - Students Wildly Indignant about Nearly Everything - for his comic strip, "L'il Abner." SWINE re-emerged in the late '90s as a loose coalition of dissident groups nominally protesting "globalization," but essentially advocating the same threadbare ideology political leftists have spouted for the last 150 years.*
> 
> It's an abiding conundrum how even a small minority can still buy into Marxist dogma as a solution for anything, after socialism's demonstrably dismal record everywhere it's been tried, its failures ranging from mediocre economic anaemia at best, to depths of genocidal despotism. The strident class-warfare message remains as tediously tiresome as it was 40 years ago, and sometimes even deadly, as we saw in Athens last week ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press (Toronto Police Service release attached for ref):


> A section of the park where the Ontario legislature is located will be used as a demonstration site during next month's G20 summit in Toronto.
> 
> Police announced today that Queen's Park North will be the so-called designated speech area during the summit.
> 
> The site was moved after residents opposed a plan to use Trinity-Bellwoods Park for the protest area.
> 
> *Activists have said they won't stand for having protesters penned in at designated demonstration areas.
> 
> They maintain the G8 and G20 are responsible for policies that create injustice around the world, and therefore the entire planet is their protest zone* ....


Zat right?  The "injustices" may be happening everywhere, but the rules are set based on the ground you stand on, in this case, Canada and Ontario.  Nice try, though...  :


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from rabble.ca:


> "The Canadian Peace Alliance is calling on peace groups and individuals to join us for a rally and march during the G20 meetings on June 26th, in Toronto. We will be meeting at a rally organized by our friends in the labour, environmental and social justice movements at Queens Park for a mass march through downtown Toronto.
> 
> The G20 countries are some of the biggest arms dealers in the world, responsible for more than 85 per cent of global military spending and 95 per cent of global arms production. They will spend $1.2 trillion on the military this year. The CPA is demanding that this money be re-allocated for food, education, green jobs, environmental programs, health-care and to improve the lives of the people of the world.
> 
> Poverty and environmental degradation are chief causes of conflict in the world. Spending massive amounts on the military, rather than addressing the root causes of conflict is a wasteful and counter-productive process. True security comes when the people of the world can meet their basic needs for a happy, healthy life.
> 
> In Canada, the Harper government has overseen the largest military spending increases since the WWII. The Canada First Defence Strategy, the blueprint for the militarization of Canada, allocates an unprecedented $490 billion to buy tanks, warships, bombers and other weapons. Canada is now the 13th largest military spender globally and is 6th among NATO countries in war spending.
> 
> The Government of Canada has already spent more than $20 billion, and the lives of 143 Canadian soldiers and countless Afghan civilians to wage war in Afghanistan. The majority of Canadians are opposed to the war yet the Harper government has announced that they will keep Canadians in Afghanistan to train the corrupt Afghan Police and Army to continue to prop up a government of drug warlords. In typical fashion, this secretive and deceitful government has announced that there will be no debate in the House of Commons on the extension of Canada's role in the war.
> 
> It is time for the people to stand up to the G20 war mongers and call for an end to war. Join us to raise the voice of peace at the G20 meetings this June."



Canadian Peace Alliance:  Main page - CPA Steering Committee - Afghanistan page - CPA "Fact" Sheet on why Canada is really in Afghanistan (hint:  Vaseline=*p-------m* jelly) attached


----------



## vonGarvin

I agree with them that an end to war would be a great thing; however, only the dead have seen the end of war.


(Thank you, Plato, I hope you don't mind me quoting you)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> (Thank you, Plato, I hope you don't mind me quoting you)


I'm sure he's OK with you footnoting.


----------



## Journeyman

I was initially puzzled by their statement, "poverty and environmental degradation are chief causes of conflict in the world." 

...but then I checked out their website and "fact" sheets; it turns out that this is simply one out to lunch statement amongst pages and pages produced by mad tinfoil hatters.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> Giant papier mache heads of the G8 leaders will soon be making a long journey from the U.K. to Canada for the international summit — but they won't quite make it to the G8 itself.
> 
> The massive heads are a fixture of demonstrations at the G8 summits, and their creators at Oxfam are just one of many groups who say they won't be making the three-hour drive north from Toronto to Huntsville, Ont., for the summit.
> 
> With the G20 summit being held in Toronto almost at the same time as the G8 — the G8 is June 25-26 and the G20 is June 26-27 — many prominent groups are sticking to the big city, where they expect to draw the most attention to their issues.
> 
> There's no word yet on how the giant heads, made by Oxfam in the U.K., are getting here — coach or cargo? — but they won't be trekking north to Huntsville, said spokeswoman Karen Palmer.
> 
> "At this point Oxfam Canada isn't planning any actions for Huntsville, largely because it's only a day and also because the security situation is so tight," said spokeswoman Karen Palmer.
> 
> "For us in terms of trying to get public attention and trying to draw awareness to the issues it's just easier (in Toronto)."
> 
> For now, the papier mache head-makers could have another problem on their hands. Britain just elected a new prime minister, David Cameron, and Palmer hasn't yet heard if there's a rush order for his head, as they take about a month to make ....





> ....  The Integrated Security Unit, which oversaw security for the Vancouver Olympics and consists of RCMP, Canadian Forces, the Ontario Provincial Police and local police forces, is expecting most of the action to be in Toronto.
> 
> "We recognize that with the advent of the G20 and its proximity...it's probably relieving some of the pressure we would have experienced up in Huntsville," said OPP Sgt. Pierre Chamberland.
> 
> "Nonetheless, we're not taking anything for granted and we still want to make sure we're well prepared."
> 
> The official location of the G8 protest zone or "designated speech area" hasn't been released, but Chamberland said it would be away from the businesses of Huntsville's picturesque main street.
> 
> "We're looking at doing it along the Highway 60 corridor area so it would be closer to the site itself," he said.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._

*Send anarchists to the island: Blizzard*
But please keep them out of our parks — they’ll only wreck the trees and shatter the quiet
Christina Blizzard, Toronto Sun/QMI, 16 May 10
Article link

Queen’s Park North (QPN) is an island of leafy tranquillity tucked away behind the Legislative Building.

Cut off from the rest of the city by Queen’s Park Cres. and Wellesley St., it’s a quiet oasis in a concrete jungle.

Did I say quiet? Tranquil? Not for much longer.

It’s the designated place of protest during the G20 and G8 Summit, June 26-28.

Frankly, I’m not sure how you tell a bunch of anarchists where to demonstrate. Isn’t the whole thing about anarchists that they are, well, anarchic? They don’t do what they’re told.

So if we want them to demonstrate in QPN, shouldn’t we use a bit of reverse psychology, and tell them we’re designating, say, High Park for their protest? That way they can protest at QPN — and look like they’re defying the evil state.

I took a stroll through QPN to check out the facilities last week.

It is full of trees. A statue of Edward VII stares down imperiously from a giant plinth. There’s a fountain.

It’s also a stone’s throw (no, that’s not an invitation) from the Legislative Building.

As someone who’s covered a lot of demos here, I found it odd they’re not using the lawn to the south of the Ledge, where most protests take place.

According to Meaghan Gray, a spokesman for Police Chief Bill Blair, you have to go through a permit process to use the Legislature’s south lawn.

QPN is a city park, so the city and police can use it freely.

(Let’s spare a thought for the cops. They’re the ones on the front lines who stand the greatest chance of getting hurt in all of this.)

So why not use the Exhibition grounds?

“It has traffic impacts,” Gray said. “It’s pretty close to the Lake Shore and the Gardiner and obviously we are expecting some traffic disruptions that weekend.”

OK, but think about University Ave. It’s home to some of our biggest hospitals. All it will take is one child to die in the back of an ambulance that’s been held up by protesters on its way to the Hospital for Sick Children and there’s going to be heck to pay.

I’m worried the protesters will damage the trees at QPN and I fear they’ll vandalize the historic and beautiful Legislative Building.

We have better places for them:

- Toronto Island: We’re expecting leftist demonstrators from around the world to squat downtown for the duration of the conference. Why not introduce them to our own home-grown bunch of left-wing squatters on the island?

They can all sit around, hum The Internationale and swap notes about the workers’ struggle and the failure of capitalism. Our islanders could make them granola and herbal tea and they can all stamp their Birkenstocks and raise their hairy armpits in a united act of defiance.

- Exhibition Place: You never know, they might enjoy the midway.

- Algonquin Park: Sure, it’s out of the way. But with any luck, they could all get lost — or eaten by bears.

Premier Dalton McGuinty said last Wednesday he welcomes the protests.

“We welcome these leaders from other countries here. We do so though, as a democracy. If some people have got some concerns about some policies, we welcome their representation and their opposition,” McGuinty said, adding he just hopes they demonstrate peacefully.

I thought he was just a tad over-enthusiastic, until I figured out the master plan. The weekend they’re in town is the last weekend before July 1. That’s right. It’s the last chance for a protest against the dreaded HST.

Neat ploy, don’t you think? The feds and the province foist an unwanted tax grab on us. Then they invite agitators from around the world for a festival of indignation and Molotov cocktail-throwing to drown out our protests the week before it kicks in.

Co-incidence? I don’t think so.

christina.blizzard@sunmedia.ca


----------



## mariomike

Toronto Sun:
"So if we want them to demonstrate in QPN, shouldn’t we use a bit of reverse psychology, and tell them we’re designating, say, High Park for their protest? That way they can protest at QPN — and look like they’re defying the evil state."

High Park? <shudder> I hope not. NIMBY.

Toronto Sun:
"OK, but think about University Ave. It’s home to some of our biggest hospitals. All it will take is one child to die in the back of an ambulance that’s been held up by protesters on its way to the Hospital for Sick Children and there’s going to be heck to pay."

True. They don't call it "Bedpan Alley" for nothing. You can park at Mount Sinai ( My personal favorite. They say it has more volunteers than any other hospital in Canada. ) on the west side and wheel your patients through University Avenue's underground tunnels to Sick Kids and TGH on the east side, or vice versa. But, it takes time.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the G8/G20 Toronto Community Mobilization site:


> Schedule of Events
> This is the basic framework for actions in June 2010 before and during the G8 and G20 Summits in Canada. If you are organizing an action during this time, please contact the Toronto Community Mobilization Network immediately to ensure that all actions are safe and supported. A full schedule is coming soon.
> 
> Please read our Solidarity and Respect statement, the Accessibility Statement and Statement/Guidelines on Sexual Assault
> 
> 18 – 20 June 2010: 2010 People’s Summit (http://peoplessummit2010.ca/)
> 
> 21 - 24 June 2010: Themed Days of Resistance (Build Up)
> 
> 21 JUNE
> All Out In Defense of the Rights of All
> 
> 22 JUNE
> Gender Justice Demonstration
> Queer Liberation Demonstration
> 
> 23 JUNE
> Climate and Environmental Justice Actions
> 
> 24 JUNE
> Indigenous Sovereignty Demonstration
> People are encouraged to host meetings, film screenings, panel events, performances, marches, rallies, direct actions in cities across the world that fit in to these themes. Please let us know what you are planning. Write to action@torontomobilize.org
> 
> 25-27 June 2010: Days of Action
> In opposition to the G8/G20 and with a will to transform, people across Turtle Island are organizing community-based days of action in Toronto, Canada that will support
> ~ self-determination for indigenous peoples
> ~ climate justice
> ~ income equity and community control over resources
> ~ migrant justice and an end to war and occupation
> ~ gender justice, queer and disAbility rights
> 
> 25 JUNE:
> Toronto Community Day of Action.
> Justice for Our Communities
> 2:30pm. Allan Gardens.
> 
> 26 JUNE:
> Family Friendly March/Rally.
> People First. We Deserve Better.
> 1:00pm. Queen's Park
> 
> Get Off the Fence
> 4pm
> Grange Park
> 
> Saturday Night Fever
> 
> 27 JUNE
> All Day Autonomous Direct Actions
> 
> 2pm
> Funeral March
> 
> Evening
> Anti-Prison Demonstration
> 
> To see how you can participate, visit the Get Involved section.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

> The “ultimate goal” of such subversives is “to kill as many of the infidels as possible,” he said Monday. “By doing so, such extremists demonstrate the radical Islamist threat writ runs in Canada and is capable of compromising any security efforts,” Harris said.



So in reality, the people who will actually be getting blown up would be the hippie protesters who are congregated in nice, high density groups?  I hope they tell The Man to stick it when his empire expanding paramedics show up trying to spread their capatalist agenda with their blood oil soaked bandages.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from twocircles.net (PDF attached in case link doesn't work for you):


> Much before world leaders descend here for the G8 and G20 summits next month, anti-globalization and green protesters are already gearing to greet them wearing masks of these leaders. Coming here for the G20 summit, Manmohan Singh will be paying a first visit by any Indian prime minister to Canada in more than a decade even though three Canadian prime ministers have visited India since then.
> 
> The Canadian resort of Huntsville in northern Ontario will play host to the two-day G8 summit from June 25. The leaders of the eight rich industrialized nations will then join other world leaders for the two-day G20 summit being held in Toronto from June 26.
> 
> Since thousands of demonstrators have fought bloody battles with police at each G8 summit now, Canadian authorities are busy chalking out foolproof security measures.
> 
> As demonstrations at the G8 summit at the remote resort may not draw a huge public attention, most protest groups now plan to target the G20 summit in Toronto to get worldwide publicity for their issues.
> 
> The huge papier mache heads of the G8 leaders - a permanent feature of protests at G8 summits now - will be flown in from Britain to Toronto, according to the protesters.
> 
> The heads are made by Oxfam who are said to be busy with orders for the head of the new British prime minister David Cameron.
> 
> Among the major organizations protesting against G8 policies will be Amnesty International, Greenpeace, WorldVision and the Canadian Labour Congress.
> 
> The G20 summit will be held at the Toronto Convention Centre which lies next to the busy business heart of the city.
> 
> Canada's Integrated Security Unit comprising the federal Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Canadian forces and provincial and city police have been entrusted with security arrangements for the two summits.


----------



## The Bread Guy

UPDATE:  The anarchists shared bits of the _Toronto Star_ story here (latest anarchist post also attached as Anarchists-TorStar-19may10.pdf) 

This from the _Toronto Star_:


> It will be militant. It will be confrontational. And some things may be smashed.
> 
> In a rallying call that has its made its way onto numerous anti-capitalist websites, a group of Ontario anarchists is dropping clues of its plans to disrupt the G20 summit.
> 
> The Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance (SOAR) plans to take part in the June 26 People First march — a popular public rally at London’s G20 summit in 2009 — before continuing down to the security fence to “confront the police state.”
> 
> “This action will be militant and confrontational, seeking to humiliate the security apparatus and make Toronto’s elites regret letting the dang G20 in here,” said the message, which first made rounds early last week.
> 
> The message promotes several protest events, including a roaming street party, and implores its members to support a variety of tactics.
> 
> “Respect for diversity of tactics also means not smashing things while we’re part of the labour child-friendly march, and remembering that although we might think certain tactics are pointless/annoying, we should not needlessly antagonize those people,” the posting reads ....


We'll see....

More on this at the _Globe & Mail_.

Here's the posting referenced in the TorStar piece (PDF attached if link doesn't work):


> The G20 is meeting in Toronto this June! But, if that's interesting to you, then you probably already knew that, and perhaps you've moved on to asking yourselves -- What is to be done? ---- We are calling ourselves Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance (SOAR), and this June, we want you to hop to Toronto. In the last decade, our movements have spent a lot of time arguing about summit hopping. This conversation has often been interesting and productive, but we feel that the time has come to stop talking, and to start causing some crap! SOAR is calling for three actions, between the afternoon of Saturday, June 26th and the evening of the 27th. Here's a short rundown of the actions we're calling so far:
> 
> Get off the Fence! -- On Saturday, June 26th, we will form an anti-colonial, anti-capitalist presence to walk in solidarity with the big People First march, before continuing on towards the fence to confront the police state and Toronto's corporate culture. This action will be militant and confrontational, seeking to humiliate the security apparatus and make Toronto's elites regret letting the dang G20 in here. Meet by 1pm at the Northeast corner of College and university.
> 
> Saturday Night Fever Later, from late on the 26th ‘till dawn on the 27th, come join us for a roaming street party! We will dance through the streets of Toronto to the music of guerilla DJ's and renegade bands, taking back space from the corporate spectacle that this city has become.
> 
> Autonomous Direct Action All day Sunday, we are calling for diverse and creative actions aimed to disrupt business-as-usual. As the leaders of the G20 nations make their final deliberations, let's demonstrate the diversity of our discontent.
> 
> These actions are being organized around an affinity group structure. By coming to Toronto as part of an affinity group, you will be best able to plug into that structure, thereby making sure that your party is as awesome as possible. We encourage you to form affinity groups with your trusted friends, lovers, comrades, etc. An affinity group is a small group of people, about 3-10 or so, who are interested in similar tactics and have similar levels of comfort. They can be thought of as the basic building block of the larger, decentralized group that we will form during these actions. In a demonstration, affinity groups are able to communicate and make decisions quickly and autonomously, and can act with greater efficiency and safety.
> 
> We've got a month and a half to get ready for this! Let's gather in the secret, quiet places, and discuss with our trusted buddies what would excite and inspire us. Then, once we share a vision, let us scheme how to create it. Here are some things to think about when preparing as an affinity group:
> 
> -Comfort level – what sort of things are you willing or not willing to do?
> 
> -Legal preparations – How will you deal with arrests?
> 
> -Getting used to working as a group – In the coming weeks, make some time to go adventuring together.
> 
> -Have a plan – What sort of roles will your affinity group take on during the events? What are you good at? How will you apply those skills?
> 
> -Material preparations – What will you need to bring to do what you need to do? Don’t forget water!
> 
> Once you have an affinity group, SOAR wants you to get involved with the planning of these actions! In the coming weeks, we will be organizing spokes councils, where representatives from affinity groups can come help plan the details of the actions, and to plug in by committing to taking on certain roles as a group. If you are interested in attending such a meeting, drop a line to torontospokes @ ecologyfund.net. And of course, the internet is not a safe place to discuss any specifics of these actions.
> 
> All SOAR events celebrate a diversity of tactics, meaning that we support all the many different ways that people choose to resist our common enemies. We will not condemn or attempt to prevent or control actions being taken by others, and will vigorously resist state repression against anyone. That said, respect for diversity of tactics also means not smashing things while we're part of the labour child-friendly march, and remembering that although we might think certain tactics are pointless/annoying, we should not needlessly antagonize those people. Not that y'all would ever do that.
> 
> It's gonna be a great summer folks.
> 
> Be the riot you wish to see,
> 
> Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance



More protest open source info links here.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Them:  "ARWEN?!  You mean there is going to be a hot elf chick?  I can't wait!!"  

Us:  "Mark your target when it comes. Look to your front."


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, a news conference is set for Thursday to "hear about the issues - reasons why people are mobilizing against the G8/G20":


> (....)
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network also invites everyone to attend its press conference this Thursday...
> 
> Here are the details:
> 
> When: Thursday, May 20, 2010
> Time: 10am - 11am
> Where: Steelworkers Hall, 25 Cecil Street, Toronto
> 
> Why:
> Come to the first Toronto Community Mobilization Network press conference and hear about the issues - reasons why people are mobilizing against the G8/G20. Hear from community organizers, activists and groups organizing events during the days of action. Make a Toronto Community Mobilization Network t-shirt for yourself! Help us make t-shirts for the network to help in fundraising efforts!!!
> 
> Join us to hear speakers on:
> Indigenous Sovereignty - Defenders of the Land
> Income Equity - Ontario Coalition Against Poverty
> Disability Rights - Damn 2025
> Gender Justice Coalition
> Labour Rights
> Environmental and Climate Justice
> Queer Rights
> Migrant Justice - No One Is Illegal
> Anti-war - Canadian Arab Federation
> 
> Spread the word!!
> 
> #30#


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Integrated Security Unit:


> The Integrated Security Unit (ISU) has selected a location for the Designated Speech Area (DSA) in Huntsville for the G8 Summit on June 25 and 26, 2010.
> 
> Designated Speech Area in HuntsvilleThe DSA will be located on the west side of Golf Course Road, approximately 500 metres from Earl’s Road, north of Highway 60. The site will be equipped with basic sanitary installations and the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) will be responsible for ensuring public safety.
> 
> “Our mandate is to ensure the safety of everyone involved with the G8, from the world leaders, to visitors, protestors and residents”, said Chief Superintendent Alphonse MacNeil, head of the ISU. “We have worked diligently with different groups to support the peaceful exercise of freedom of speech and lawful assembly.”
> 
> Parking for buses that may bring protestors to Huntsville has also been arranged. Information on the DSA site and the bus parking location will be available on the ISU website at www.g8-g20isu.ca ....



PDF map of site attached


----------



## zipperhead_cop

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> PDF map of site attached



Is the green dot a graphic, or did they put down a massive tarp to collect standing water for mosquito breeding?   ^-^


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I love the G8 ISU FAQ page ;D

Setting the Record Straight 

Q- Is the international media staying at Pearson Airport?

A: There will be a Media Centre, foreseen to be at the Direct Energy Centre, which will accommodate media working needs.  Accommodations will be the responsibility of the media.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q – It has been asked if individual residents have been provided with funds to upgrade a landing strip for the military and/ or leaders?
A. To date no funds have been paid from the ISU.  Over next few months the logistical requirements for the summit will be known and any contracts tendered will be in compliance with the Government of Canada regulations and policies.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*( I love this one!)*

Q- It was asked if any summit leaders will be positioning their submarine in area waters, and if destroyers would be stationed in Lake of Bays.

A: We cannot talk about specific security issues but appropriate and reasonable security measures will be taken and that includes the establishment of marine restriction zones, the extent of which has not been determined yet.  However, the event is several months away and the Integrated Security Unit will be in charge of all security measures for the summit. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q – It was asked if Barack Obama will be flown back to the United States each night after Summit meetings.

A: We cannot talk about specific security measures for any of the leaders.  The Summit Management Office will be planning for the accommodations and transportation needs of all the leaders and their delegations. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q- There have been a lot of marijuana busts recently, is it because there are satellites picking up the infrared heat from the grow ops?  
A: Annually in September police services throughout Ontario are partners in a marijuana eradication program called Project Shabot.  This program targets marijuana grow operations throughout Ontario.  These recent seizures are not the result of any ISU actions.


http://www.g8-g20isu.ca/g8/rumours-rumeurs-eng.htm


----------



## The Bread Guy

Holy fack - I couldn't have made those up!

Meanwhile, anarchists are claiming responsiblity for firebombing an Ottawa bank - more here from CanWest:


> An anti-establishment group claimed responsibility for the firebombing of a Glebe bank early Tuesday morning.
> 
> The group also vowed to “be there” at the upcoming G8 and G20 summits in an online video that shows a massive fireball exploding from the front window of a Royal Bank of Canada branch on Bank Street and First Avenue.
> 
> In the short clip, one person emerges from the branch’s side door and is then silhouetted against a vivid orange flash. Another person follows him out the door and the pair begin to head west across First.
> 
> The video abruptly cuts to scrolling text.
> 
> “The Vancouver Olympic games are over, but a torch is still burning,” the text reads.
> 
> Firefighters responded to the blaze at about 3:30 a.m. Tuesday, and had it under control just after 4 a.m. No one was injured.
> 
> The video was posted on an anti-establishment website at 11:59 a.m. Tuesday. It appears to have been shot on a handheld camera from the northeast corner of the intersection ....



Here's the post, with a PDF attached in case something happens to the original post.

If the rant is to be believed, these fine upstanding folks may be busy elsewhere:


> .... On June 25-27 2010, the G8/G20 ‘leaders’ and bankers are meeting in Huntsville and Toronto to make decisions that will further their policies of exploitation of people and the environment. We will be there.
> 
> We pass the torch to all those who would resist the trampling of native rights, of the rights of us all, and resist the ongoing destruction of our planet. We say: The Fire This Time ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _Globe & Mail_:


> In what’s shaping up to be a story about cottage-country casualness versus Ottawa’s security jitters, a popular local official has been forced from his job after allegedly sharing his G8 pass with a fellow firefighter.
> 
> Fire Chief Stephen Hernen had survived floods and fires during a decade on the job in Huntsville, Ont. But he was shunted aside this week after being faulted for an alleged security breach.
> 
> Mr. Hernen, who had spent months planning for the G8, was “temporarily reassigned to administrative duties” pending an investigation, according to a statement circulated Monday by the town’s bureaucracy.
> 
> Circumstances suggest the decision to reassign him was made grudgingly by city councillors, though they refuse to disclose any details. Sources, however, told The Globe and Mail that Mr. Hernen stands accused of violating security protocols by temporarily lending his G8 security key, thereby giving access to a sensitive RCMP-controlled facility, to his assistant fire chief ....



Town of Huntsville statement attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ISU:  "Of course we consider these sorts of things when we plan security" - this from the Canadian Press:


> The police forces in charge of security at the G20 and G8 summits are keeping a close eye on the firebombing of a bank branch in a trendy neighbourhood of the capital this week.
> 
> The Integrated Security Unit says it is analyzing video tape of the explosion, and is prepared to lend its intelligence expertise to Ottawa police as they investigate the incident.
> 
> "Any time this kind of thing happens, there is a need to step back and say ... 'is this a one time (event)?'" said Michele Paradis, an ISU spokeswoman.
> 
> "It's an isolated incident now, and we hope that it stays as an isolated incident. We'll work on it from there," she said in an interview. "If there is a need to adjust our plans based on this, we certainly will." ....



Banks:  "Of course we consider these sorts of things when we plan security" - via CTV.ca:


> An RBC branch in the Glebe will beef up security at the site after a self-described anarchist group claimed responsibility for firebombing the bank early Tuesday morning.
> 
> Flames ripped through the ATM area of the bank at about 3:30 a.m., destroying the bank's entrance and causing heat and smoke damage to the rest of the building.
> 
> A video of the fire posted online to an anti-establishment website shows a man leaving the side door of the bank's foyer as flames rush through the front of the building, shattering windows and littering the sidewalk with debris ....



Meanwhile, from CP24, a bit of the obvious:


> Canadian journalists were absent this morning as foreign reporters were given a tour of Toronto's G20 facilities.
> 
> Reporters from China, Indonesia, Russia and Saudi Arabia were amongst the media given tours of parts of Toronto on Wednesday.
> 
> While Canadian journalists were not invited, the Minister of State for small businesses and tourism Rob Moore says security preparations are well under way for the summit of major world leaders in late June.
> 
> Moore says officials have learned from security practices at the Olympics in Vancouver and will apply their knowledge in Toronto.
> 
> "I don't know the exact numbers (of officers), but they have a plan in place and will make sure everybody is safe," he said.
> 
> "It's a major logistical challenge but our forces…are up to the challenge." ....



And how about businesses in the area?


> .... Moore also told reporters in a scrum after a tour in the Distillery District that plans are in place to deal with damages to local businesses.
> 
> "It's a major undertaking and it does have an impact, it has a positive impact in many ways, but it has its challenges and we're prepared to deal with some of them," said Moore, who was whisked away by handlers when asked if businesses would receive compensation.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From Canada.com/CanWest:


> The videotaped firebombing of a Royal Bank of Canada branch in Ottawa this week could be a sign of things to come.
> 
> Anarchist websites are threatening "militant and confrontational" action during the summits of G8 and G20 world leaders in Huntsville, Ont., and Toronto, respectively, next month.
> 
> And the group claiming responsibility for the bank attack vows that its members will "be there" to protest "exploitation of people and the environment."
> 
> Andre Gerolymatos, a professor of international security at Simon Fraser University and an expert on anarchy, said it would not surprise him to see those involved in the firebombing appear at the upcoming summits.
> 
> "The G8 (summit) has always been a magnet for protest. These people want to ratchet it up a bit," he said Wednesday.
> 
> Gerolymatos said the group of radicals is probably small, and will likely try to mix in with legitimate protesters and incite police. "It's a favourite tactic of anarchists," he said ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

_- edited to add graphic reference - _

From CITY-TV - highlights mine:


> The return of Roy Halladay has been scrubbed and the CN Tower will now be closed during the G20 summit next month.
> 
> *The iconic landmark will be off-limits from Friday, June 25 to Tuesday, June 29* due to the massive security effort during the summit, which will cover a large swath of the downtown core, particularly in the area bounded by Queen Street, Spadina Avenue and Yonge Street.
> 
> Security directly around the Metro Convention Centre will be especially tight.
> 
> Last week, *the Toronto Blue Jays announced the team’s three-game series against the Phillies slated to take place at the Rogers Centre the same weekend as the summit has been moved to Philadelphia.*
> 
> Among other security measures, *the RCMP is reportedly advising people who work on Bay Street to dress down during the event as not to attract the attention of anti-corporate protesters* and office towers in the area are apparently stockpiling supplies for several days in the event of a lockdown, a report claims.
> 
> Authorities have designated Queen’s Park as the official protest zone, although many demonstrators are expected to flood the area surrounding the summit venue.
> 
> The G20, which runs June 26-27, is being held in conjunction with the G8, which happens in Huntsville, Ont. June 25-26.



and CTV Toronto:


> The CN Tower will be closed during the G20 Summit next month because of security concerns, marking the latest in a series of closures ahead of the high-level meetings.
> 
> The tower will be shut from June 25 to 27, and will reopen on June 28 to the public ....



Meanwhile, lookit one of the "Community Mobilization Artwork" posts on one of the protest organizing sites (attached, with a h/t to the National Post).


----------



## PMedMoe

Wow.  Why not just close all the businesses like they did for the Olympics?


----------



## heavygunner

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I really hope the G8 and G20 protesters decide that peacefully putting a message across is far more effective than being belligerents. Otherwise, I've got no sympathy when the pepper spray and rubber bullets come out.


 ;D haha dont forget the tear gas!


----------



## The Bread Guy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Wow.  Why not just close all the businesses like they did for the Olympics?


As much as I love to hate TO as anybody else, given how many head offices and centres of gravity are there, I don't know what would happen to the rest of Canadian business if that happened for a few days.

Then again, some "periphery-over-centre" types might say MORE would get done if that happened, too  ;D

Meanwhile, at rabble.ca, not much regret there (PDF attached if link doesn't work for you):


> .... S.K. Hussan, a spokesperson for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network -- which is facilitating the G20 protests here in Toronto, said of the bombing, *"'One burnt RBC branch pales in comparison to the death and devastation that the G20 policies create worldwide, and the Tar Sands create in Canada. The Toronto Community Mobilization Network supports mass mobilizations, rallies, protests and creative actions that oppose the G20's colonial, anti-people, anti-environment agenda"*
> 
> On rabble.ca's discussion board, babble, reactions were mixed; some fear that the act, "will most certainly be exploited to justify full tilt boogie-man tactics against G8/G20 protesters." One babbler noted:
> 
> "A firebombed bank, where the situation is being treated as suspicious by the authorities [have responded] with 16 firetrucks and 35 firefighters, along with the unlimited and dedicated attention of the police to determine the circumstances and track down the perps, all to address a crime against corporate property. Meanwhile, Bay and Wall Street continue to rage with impunity, where millions of lives are at stake as a result of their attacks upon the worth and lives of human beings." ....



Oooh boy....


----------



## zipperhead_cop

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, lookit one of the "Community Mobilization Artwork" posts on one of the protest organizing sites



Hey, that's cool!  It shows the G20 levelling a milliwave generator at hoards of protesters who are running away.  At least they know what to expect.


----------



## The Bread Guy

First squirts o' news out of this:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935374.html#msg935374

From the _Globe & Mail_:


> The G20 summit is just over a month away, and the reality of the situation is beginning to make itself clear. For the past few weeks, much of the Toronto population has probably been hoping that preparations for the event were an exercise in over-reaction. But this week has been something of a revelation for many. The firebombing  of an Ottawa bank on Tuesday morning — the work of a group of self-described anarchists who connected their terrorist act to the upcoming summit — has shown that the threat of violence and property destruction is real. It has been announced that the CN Tower will be closed, CCTV cameras are being installed in the downtown core, and Bay Street workers are being advised to dress casual so as not to raise the ire of anti-establishment protesters. Police have confirmed that the  security fencing will likely go up around June 11, and mailboxes, bike parking rings and street furniture will be removed from the area around the Metro Convention Centre. Highway closures, TTC delays and general grid lock are inevitable.
> 
> At a press conference this morning, anti-poverty activist John Clarke said that shop owners are being asked to sign “trespass letters,” which will allow police to remove people from private property. Groups who are planning to protest during the event say Toronto is being transformed into “a police state” while police defend their actions as the best way to protect the city and its guests. It’s hard to say where sympathy lies these days and the main question most people seem to be asking themselves is: why on earth would any city invite this upon themselves?




From CTV Toronto:


> An umbrella group concerned with various social issues says it plans to protest the G8 and G20 summits because the leaders do not represent the interests of ordinary people.
> 
> Organizer Adonis El-Jamal says the governments of the countries involved are interested in saving banks, but not people's livelihoods.
> 
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network held a news conference Thursday to discuss the issues they hope to highlight through protests and events related to the summits.
> 
> They say they will be protesting for self-determination for indigenous people, climate justice, income equity, community control over resources and migrant justice.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Meanwhile, a group called the Human Summit Project announced its alternative approach to "conscious civil engagement" surrounding the G20 summit.
> 
> Members will hold a one-hour silent meditation in Woodbine Park in Toronto on the second day of the two-day G20 summit.
> 
> The purpose is to "remind people everywhere that they have a voice, even in silence, to effect change and to remind our leaders to account for the value of human existence," according to a news release.




And from CFRA's web page:


> As security officials prepare for the G8 and G20 summits in Huntsville and Toronto next month anarchists and others who plan to protest those events are speaking out.
> 
> One of them is gay rights activist and York University student Ro Velasquez.
> 
> She tells a news conference in Toronto there are several reasons why she's against the global gatherings.
> 
> "Queer history has a history of resistance, a history of mobilization against government repression toward the freedom to express our diverse sexualities and gender identities openly," says Velasquez.
> 
> Adonis El Jamal of the Community Mobilization Network also questions the motivations of world leaders who'll meet in Huntsville and Toronto.
> 
> "The G8 and G20 represent the interests of the richest people on the Earth, not needs of people across the globe," says El Jamal ....




Meanwhile, Canadian Press feeds story on G8 protest zone near Huntsville:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935385.html#msg935385


> Security officials for the G8 summit in Huntsville, Ont., have revealed the location of the protest zone, just outside the main part of town.
> 
> The "designated speech area," announced by the Integrated Security Unit, will be located eight kilometres down the road from the summit.
> 
> The zone is on Golf Course Road, off Highway 60, which is the main route toward Deerhurst Resort, which is hosting the summit.
> 
> Golf Course Road does not appear to be a likely path leaders or other dignitaries would take to get to or from Deerhurst ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from g20.torontomobilize.org:


> Toronto Vs. The G20
> Start: 06/05/2010 10:30
> End: 06/05/2010 18:00
> Timezone: Canada/Eastern
> 
> Toronto vs. the G20
> Community action for global justice
> 
> Saturday, June 5
> 10:30am-6pm
> Ontario Institute for Studies in Education
> 252 Bloor Street West
> 5th Floor
> 
> What are we protesting, again?
> 
> It’s a good impulse to feel contempt for the G20. It’s a better impulse to want to talk about it.Join student and community activists to learn about the G20 and current social and environmental justice campaigns in Toronto, and to get involved. Free citywide teach-in. Lunch included! ....



Full itinerary also attached in case link doesn't work for you.


----------



## The Bread Guy

*- Not much regret (or comment) from protest organizers in Toronto about Ottawa firebombing
- "We won't be penned in (to designated protest areas)!" (Transl:  we're above the law)
- Expect delays at/around Pearson during Summit Season
- Rabble.ca seeking hardware to help spread propaganda the word*

_Toronto Star_, 20 Mar 10:


> G20 protesters say they refuse to be “corralled” inside a designated speech area and are determined to exercise their right to demonstrate during the summit.
> 
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network is an umbrella organization that connects disparate groups planning to demonstrate against the G20 summit on June 26-27. At a news conference Thursday, the group addressed the myriad issues prompting them to protest, decrying the summit as an undemocratic, disruptive and “militarized” event designed to further the interests of a “global elite.”
> 
> “If you are going to impose this poverty and misery on people throughout this planet, don’t think that you’re going to be able to ask them to confine themselves to sedate, nice, polite methods of struggle,” said John Clarke with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, one of the many organizations in the network. “People, by God, are going to resist and they have a damn right to.” ....



_Globe & Mail_, 20 May 10


> A coalition of groups who plan to demonstrate against the upcoming G20 in Toronto says Canadians should focus on the deeds of invited dignitaries, not the protesters who meet them.
> 
> At a news conference Thursday on their reasons for opposing the international summit, coalition members were asked to weigh in on the recent firebombing of an Ottawa bank and the likelihood of violence on Toronto streets when the international leaders descend on the city June 26 and 27.
> 
> “A bomb in a bank will be fixed,” said Anna Willats, of Gender Justice For All. “The violence that happens to women’s lives around the world will be with us forever.”
> 
> Ms. Willats was joined by individuals who advocate for causes ranging from disability rights to queer issues, the First Nations community and climate justice, as well as representatives of the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, Canadian Union of Public Employees and the Canadian Arab Federation.
> 
> “All of these things are related and interconnected,” said Adonis El-Jamal, of the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, an umbrella group formed in advance of the summit.
> 
> Protest groups gathered in a Steelworkers’ Hall to discuss “issues not tactics,” but could not avoid questions about the Ottawa attack, responsibility for which was claimed by a group of anarchists who cited the G8 and G20 summits as targets.
> 
> After repeatedly refusing to address the possibility that their message could be hijacked by violent elements, members of the coalition said any escalation in tactics by protesters would pale in comparison to the impact of policies promoted by G20 leaders.
> 
> “Next month, some of the most dangerous people on the planet are going to be coming to Toronto, where they will be given an armed camp,” said poverty activist John Clarke. “The audacity of allowing them to gather in an armed camp and then asking people ‘Do you think someone’s going to break a window or scuffle with police?’ Damn right people are going to resist.” ....



Reuters, 20 May 10


> …. Protesters have planned demonstrations against both summits, starting on June 21, and ranging from marches to all-night street parties.
> 
> "In June we will be on the streets and we will shut them down and show them our power," Farrah Miranda, leading a group called No One is Illegal, said at a media briefing in Toronto on Thursday.
> 
> "The struggle will continue in June on the streets of Toronto."
> 
> Nine groups held the briefing under the banner of the G8/G20 Toronto Community Mobilization Network, which is co-ordinating the protest efforts.
> 
> Activists say they have no plans for violent protests, but they do plan to make as much noise as they can and have been canvassing Toronto's marginalized neighborhoods for months to join in demands for social justice for a variety of groups.
> 
> The group declined comment on the Ottawa firebomb attack, which damaged the bank property but caused no injuries ....



nowtoronto.com, 20 May 10:


> Here’s a question: how many news cameras would have turned out for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network’s presser on G20 protests Thursday morning if a bank in a tony area of Ottawa weren’t sitting in blackened ruin?
> 
> The answer’s a bummer.
> 
> As it was,  firebombers were the star of the news conference at the Steelworkers Hall on Cecil.
> 
> Though organizers worked desperately to keep the focus on issues — they had nine activists on tap from OCAP’s John Clarke  to the Canadian Arab Federation’s Khaled Mouammar to climate activist Maryam Adrangi — it was clear from the Q and A that  newsies considered all the talk about poverty, enviro dessecration etc, merely the preamble to what they really wanted to know: will there be violence at the G20?
> 
> Network spokesperson Leslie Wood struggled to stay on message: “we’re working for a more peaceful, sustainable world; we don’t talk tactics,’’ she responded in a myriad of ways.
> 
> “But are you going to tell people NOT to be violent?’’ one reporter persisted.
> 
> “We want to show that the G20 is incompetent in managing the world economy,’’ Wood gamely went on.
> 
> Finally, gender justice activist Anna Willats took the matter well in hand: she said there’s lots of violence visited on people in the normal course of society but that she doesn’t support movement violence in return. “I can’t square that circle,’’ she said.
> 
> But she went on to tell the press: “ the “message is in your hands.’’ If you focus on violence, that will be the main issue, she said. “You have the control.’’
> 
> Then her punchline: A bombed bank, she said, “ will be fixed up in a month; violence against women, will last for generations. You guys have to get on that.’’ ....



_Toronto Sun_, 20 May 10


> Some homeless men and women will be moved out of downtown as part of a security crackdown by Toronto Police for the G20 summit next month, officers and protesters say.
> 
> Members of 10 anti-summit groups — including anti-poverty, gender, environment and native activists — vow to wreak havoc when the world leaders meet June 26-27 at the Metro Convention Centre. The G8 takes place in Huntsville June 25-26.
> 
> The groups have refused to reveal their tactics or if they’re linked to a cell that firebombed a Royal Bank in Ottawa Tuesday.
> 
> John Clarke of the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty said some homeless have complained of being pressured by police to move from the area where the summit is taking place.
> 
> “It is not surprising that they are moving people,” Clarke said Thursday. “People are complaining that the police want them out and that they have to move.”
> 
> Clarke was cheered by demonstrators as he spoke about plans to protest the world leaders.
> 
> “People will resist and we have a right to resist,” he said to loud cheers. “We are taking early steps in building a resistance movement.”
> 
> (....)
> 
> Farah Miranda of No One is Illegal said Torontonians didn’t want a summit or the “police state.”
> 
> “We will be marching on the streets and we want to show them our power and shut them down,” Miranda said. “This is part of our struggle for migrant justice.”
> 
> Maryam Adrangi of People for Climate Justice said the environment was not on the summit’s agenda.
> 
> “Canada has refused to put environment on the agenda of the G20,” Adrangi said. “It is just disgusting.”
> 
> Sharmeen Khan of the Toronto Community Mobilization Network said the protests are part of an ongoing struggle for social justice.
> 
> “The attendees of the summits represent a wealthy few who are responsible for creating policies and institutions that destroy communities,” Khan said ....




_Toronto Sun_, 20 May 10


> Pearson airport will be in a state of high alert days before the arrival next month of G20 leaders.
> 
> Passengers heading to the airport from June 21 until about June 27 are being warned to travel with ID and be prepared for delays caused by motorcades carrying world leaders to Huntsville for the G8 or Toronto for the G20.
> 
> “This is the largest security operation ever at Pearson airport,” said Peel Const. Adam Minion.
> 
> Motorists travelling to Pearson to pick up passengers will be subject to random police checks and all cargo vehicles will be scanned before they’re allowed on airport property.
> 
> Police said employees of businesses close to the airport will undergo security checks, as well as cab and limo drivers.
> 
> Some flights will face brief delays when air traffic over Pearson will stop for the arrival of leaders like U.S. President Barack Obama.
> 
> Meanwhile, some Toronto Police officers are undergoing training to handle the protesters expected at the summit.
> 
> Officers have been told to expect violence and to have gas masks ready.
> 
> “Our officers are well trained to handle any situations,” said Toronto Police spokesman Meaghan Gray. “Criminal activity will not be tolerated.”
> 
> Police have already erected a large fence around the Toronto Film Studio that will serve as a holding area and downtown’s 52 Division station on Dundas St. W. has been fortified with fencing.





rabble.ca:


> Wondering what to do with old electronics when you upgrade? Donate them to rabble.ca! We're gearing up to cover the G8 and G20 summits in June and plan to outfit a small army of journalists with equipment for on the ground reporting! Here are some of the items we could use:
> *Minidisc recorders
> *Unidirectional microphones
> *Laptops
> *A projector
> *Digital cameras with video capability
> *Mini to USB or mini to mini cables ....


----------



## leroi

Looks like this guy will be doing media coverage for the protesters in Toronto: Press For Truth

Security personnel are going to be busy, I think.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Anyone can be a hero in a mask at 4am against an empty bank.  If they pull that in Toronto, it will be game on.  Riot police train to be hit with rocks and molotov coctails.  Do the anarchists train to be hit with less-than-lethal options?


----------



## Jarnhamar

This weekend my friends cousin wouldn't STFU about how great it's going to be going to the G8 and G20 summit to protest.  An aspiring actor in school, he acted like protesting this summit would Sheppard in a new age of peace and prosperity. I didn't get into it with him because my friend was already embarrassed enough but maybe someone here can shed some light on this.

The summits are going to attract a LOT of protesters.  What's the point?  What exactly is showing up to this with signs and shouting and mouthing off to cops going to prove?  Are the gathered world leaders going to say holy shit would you look at that outside? These guys are really serious maybe they have a point!
Or are they going to completely ignore the protesters and everything they are saying and enjoy our fine bacon and poutine and do their thing.

I seriously don't understand what the deal is. Does anyone even care about protests? I know when I drive by them in Ottawa all the time I don't really care. Their a nuisance and if they were standing beside a giant puddle I would go out of my way to splash them.

What is protesting at the summits REALLY going to accomplish? Does anyone outside of their own circle read those signs or care?

Lets take my friends cousin.  Now I'm not going to suggest that acting is a waste of time. I love actors. Getting paid millions and millions of dollars to make movies that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make.  I feel sorry for all the actors that complain about how hard their lives are and how much being rich and famous isn't that great.
What if, instead of going to school to be an actor, someone who really cared that much about starving children, the climate (or whatever the G20 is about) went to school for something that would oh I don't know, help children or somehow help feed the starving. Help lessen our dependency on oil.

Ever notice how when protesters do their thing the media makes it about "them" and not the issues?
I'm going to wager that the media coverage on the G8 and G20 summit protests will be about all the stupid crap the protesters do, the damage they cause and the fighting with the police- and NOTHING to with the issues they are "worried" about.


And if any would-be-protesters are reading this; don't be a moron and bring your frigging kids. I never understand why parents bring their kids to protests then act all WTF when their kid gets trampled by a police horse when a fight breaks out.  Instead of buying the nice paper for your signs buy the cheap stuff (no one is gonna judge you) and pay for a babysitter.


----------



## ModlrMike

Here's a little more fodder for your questions:

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-915471.html#msg915471


----------



## mellian

While these protests may seem like it they make no difference to G8 and G20 and general nuisance especially thanks to particular, there is still a lot of good that come from them, and in a way both good and bad sign. Bad as in something is going on (whatever that is) which a good chunk of people disapprove to the point of protesting and demonstrating, and good thing as in good chunk of people who are even remotely aware of what is going and getting involved. If no one protested, either because it is not allowed or due to apathy, it would be time to worry.

Yes, there are the nuisances who like to protest for the sake of protesting and causing trouble, but many more are there for actual issues they care about. Apart from the protesting, such protests are essentially conferences and summits of there own, with a lot of networking going on, with plenty of opportunities to learn about the various issues and about G8/G20/etc, and to get involve with the many organizations at these protests. Many who attend such protests end up getting involved politically, join organizations and companies that deal with issues that they care about and agree with. 

Then there is the economic aspect. While may be nuisance for the police and security, traffic, and some businesses the few particulars like to vandalize, these large protests tend to be a boon to local economy. How many book hotels/motels? Go to local restaurants and grocery stores or even supply stores?

For security, what great way to keep track of various nefarious groups, organizers, and such, all coming to one place near/under their jurisdiction? 

Protests are not popular to the mainstream, but does not mean not popular among large segment of the populace, and not all of them are students, nomadic troublemakers, and on welfare.


----------



## ballz

I'm a little bit appalled about the fact that protesting is being frowned upon?

Personally, I'll be more worried if nobody is protesting...


----------



## mariomike

Toronto Sun:
"Take our G20...........please!"
"Stephen, for the love of all that’s holy, PLEASE cancel your plans to hold the G20 in Toronto on June 26 and 27"
"Keep this !@#%$ disaster-in-the-making as far away from Toronto as you can and we’ll even chip in for the tear gas and stun guns!":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2010/05/05/13838526.html
( Story is followed by some interesting comments and political speculation. )

They are even shutting down the CN Tower:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/blog-local-view/

"As G20 nears, battle lines drawn over rights, security":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100522/g20-protest-police-100523/20100523/?hub=TopStoriesV2

"Anarchists getting act together for summits:
"And though police won’t say it, security experts suspect that with the G8 and G20 summits just weeks away, they’re being watched as closely as al-Qaida.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/05/22/14047486.html

"Wanted: 500 extra police for G20 summit:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/05/22/wanted-500-extra-police-for-g20-summit/

Globe and Mail:
"as many as 10,000 uniformed officers and 1,000 private security guards teaming up to protect world leaders."


----------



## Thompson_JM

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Anyone can be a hero in a mask at 4am against an empty bank.  If they pull that in Toronto, it will be game on.  Riot police train to be hit with rocks and molotov coctails.  Do the anarchists train to be hit with less-than-lethal options?



I going to guess no... but that's what makes the highlight reel all the more fun to watch.... 

Truthfully... as much as I love to hate Toronto.... I really hope it doesn't explode into total chaos during the G20.... and I really hope no Emergency Service Personal are injured during the inevitable riots...


----------



## Jarnhamar

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm a little bit appalled about the fact that protesting is being frowned upon?
> 
> Personally, I'll be more worried if nobody is protesting...



Because they would be spending their time doing something actually productive?


----------



## mellian

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Because they would be spending their time doing something actually productive?



Whose to say it is not productive?


----------



## vonGarvin

mellian said:
			
		

> Whose to say it is not productive?


:rofl:


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> Whose to say it is not productive?



Are the meeting going to be cancelled ?

Are decisions at those meetings going to be affected ?

Will public opinion be swayed ?

It is not productive.

If it is about getting your message across, protesters need better PR. If you watch the news, the only message that get across is "we break stuff and then complain about the cops".


----------



## mellian

Obviously did not read my post that got merged into this thread to show how else it can be productive.

While they may not succeed that into those points, there are other reasons these big protests still happen. Not to repeat myself, here is some good reasons:

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/historyprofiles/tp/Why-Protest.htm


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> Obviously did not read my post that got merged into this thread to show how else it can be productive.



I read it.



> http://civilliberty.about.com/od/historyprofiles/tp/Why-Protest.htm





> 1. Protest events increase the visibility of the cause.



It sure does. If the cause is breaking windows and stuff......



> 2. Protest events demonstrate power.



Ok, i can buy that one. I highly doubt that any protest at the G8/20 will demonstrate anything however.



> 3. Protest events promote a sense of solidarity.



Right...it takes massive protests to accomplish that. Seems to me that this point makes it more like the protest as an end in itself rather than a means of change.



> 4. Protest events build activist relationships.



Knowing full-well that your little social get-togethers attract a "minority" of agitators, surely there must be better ways to network while creating some better PR for yourself.



> 5. Protest events energize participants.



And here i thought it was about issues.......


----------



## mellian

May not agree, but many others do not. Discredit them as much as you like base on the actions of few, but remember that the same can be done for other groups and organizations as all unfortunately have their bad apples too.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> base on the actions of few,



So the solution is to keep holding events that constantly attract "a few" , drowns the issues and creates bad PR for the cause ?

The morning after the meetings are over, the public wont even remember what the protesters were saying, just that it took a whole lots of tear gas to stop them from destroying the place.

Thats if they even listened to the message at all. When you protest everything, you tend to get tuned out.


----------



## George Wallace

> 1. Protest events increase the visibility of the cause.





> 2. Protest events demonstrate power.





> 3. Protest events promote a sense of solidarity.





> 4. Protest events build activist relationships.





> 5. Protest events energize participants.



What I don't understand is why these groups need to protest?  If it wasn't for their complete apathy during Municipal, Provincial and National Elections, the greatest means available in this society to lodge a legitimate complaint in a legitimized forum for protest, then there would be no need for these forms of protest and their potential for violence and distruction.

If these people would exercise their democratic rights to vote and elected the people that they seriously thought could champion their causes, then we wouldn't have the riff raff causing problems for the rest of us at these events.

How come these supposed champions of all these fringe causes haven't figured out that when they don't exercise their franchise to vote in Municiple, Provincial, and Federal Elections, they really haven't any legitimate reason to complain.  Apathy on their part is no reason to use violence to champion a cause they were not dedicated enough to fight for come election time.  Why should we pay attention to them, if they can't be bothered to use legitimate means?  It speaks volumes as to who they are.


----------



## aesop081

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It speaks volumes as to who they are.



Exactly. It is no longer about the issues but about protesting in itself. These groups are so bent on protesting against the establishment that they completely ignore to possibility of being part of it and effecting change from within.

Its no as sexy, doesnt get your face on TV and doesnt help the "community organizer" and " social activist" CVs.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Based on the actions of a few?

Look up some pictures.   Mpst of them have people either destroying shit or mixing it up with cops.
A few people being idiots and everyone else around them snapping pictures.








Protesting the environment?





Trying to set another human being on fire?





Protest ninjas





He's going to protst the use of hardwood in police battons, compared to the more humane softwood versions. Also, high dentist prices.





Protesting under qualified haircutters.





One guy being an idiot, everyone egging him on taking pictures. It's about the ISSUES, obviously.





About to buy stocks in Tylenol.





You hit the cop and I'll take a picture of him hitting you back and we'll edit a youtube video and tag it police brutality.





This will help the economy-namely vehicle repair shops.





Makes a great point.





Sound advice.  Cancel Debt, I think bono mentioned that too. People should also work for free, kinda like the federation on startrek.





Proving a point.





Worse still, he fell on his keys.










Has very important issues.  Don't worry, you can just photo shop a funny caption in after.

Protests aren't about issues, it's protesters making it about themselves.


----------



## aesop081

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> One guy being an idiot, everyone egging him on taking pictures. It's about the ISSUES, obviously.



Yup.......Why should the peaceful majority stop the "few" who detract from their message eh ?

IIRC, we've been down that road with mellian before  :


----------



## The Bread Guy

mellian said:
			
		

> May not agree, but many others do not. Discredit them as much as you like base on the actions of few, but remember that *the same can be done for other groups and organizations as all unfortunately have their bad apples too*.


True, but most groups wield sanctions against the baddest apples, or clearly condemn the actions of the bad apples.  Other than these statements:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/94123/post-937069.html#msg937069
and fourth link here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/94123/post-936457.html#msg936457
I'm not seeing a whole lot of rejection of the tactic of firebombing - a lot of "yeah, it may be seen as bad, but the other side's worse" and some "who knows if it wasn't agent provocateurs", but not much "this is wrong" or "this should not be done".


----------



## vonGarvin

Here's my submission ;D


----------



## mariomike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Here's my submission ;D



Comes complete with a great face palm by the policeman on the right.


----------



## mellian

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So the solution is to keep holding events that constantly attract "a few" , drowns the issues and creates bad PR for the cause ?



That is like saying we should disband the Canadian Forces because of a few murders and rapists. 



> The morning after the meetings are over, the public wont even remember what the protesters were saying, just that it took a whole lots of tear gas to stop them from destroying the place.
> 
> Thats if they even listened to the message at all. When you protest everything, you tend to get tuned out.



There is a lot of things the public tunes out in general, a long with the media, yet the world still turns.


----------



## mellian

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What I don't understand is why these groups need to protest?  If it wasn't for their complete apathy during Municipal, Provincial and National Elections, the greatest means available in this society to lodge a legitimate complaint in a legitimized forum for protest, then there would be no need for these forms of protest and their potential for violence and distruction.
> 
> If these people would exercise their democratic rights to vote and elected the people that they seriously thought could champion their causes, then we wouldn't have the riff raff causing problems for the rest of us at these events.
> 
> How come these supposed champions of all these fringe causes haven't figured out that when they don't exercise their franchise to vote in Municiple, Provincial, and Federal Elections, they really haven't any legitimate reason to complain.  Apathy on their part is no reason to use violence to champion a cause they were not dedicated enough to fight for come election time.  Why should we pay attention to them, if they can't be bothered to use legitimate means?  It speaks volumes as to who they are.



Many among do vote, just not all of these are to NDP. Then there is beliefs that their vote will not make any difference for various reasons such as greedy/corrupt/rich/upper class politicians, the entire system is broken, more party focus than individuals, mainstream media tend to focus more on mainstream political parties than the small ones, and so on. Elections does not work for the people, hence seek alternatives.


----------



## mellian

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Based on the actions of a few?
> 
> Look up some pictures.   Mpst of them have people either destroying crap or mixing it up with cops.
> A few people being idiots and everyone else around them snapping pictures.



Of course you will get lot more photos and media attention on the violent few. While all these are taken, there are hundreds and thousands more further away demonstrating and marching peacefully. Yay for media manipulation and human nature to pay attention more to violence and where the 'action' is at.

Heck, people hear more about the these violent few and riot cops then do the G8/20 meetings themselves too. Ask the average joe on the street and they remember more the protests and police than what the summits are about.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Did we not batter this particular expired equine into soup right around the same time last year?


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from toronto.mediacoop.ca - highlights mine:


> The RCMP-led Integrated Security Unit (ISU) of the G20 is refusing to rule out the use of Agent Provocateurs to get protesters to commit illegal acts, the Toronto Media Co-op has learned.
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> During a phone interview with the Media Co-op, Constable Meghan Gray with the TPS G20 Planning Team responsible for Public Affairs, Communications & Community Relations, was also asked directly whether Agent Provocateurs would be used.
> 
> Toronto Media Co-op: Can you confirm or deny that you will be using agent provocateurs? Do you think they are illegal?
> 
> Meaghan Gray: “Like [my co-worker], George Tucker, those are operational issues, I can’t speak to that.”
> 
> TMC: “A source from the RCMP has told me their use is illegal. Are you saying you can’t rule out an illegal activity will be used?”
> 
> Gray: “Well…I’d have to ask someone else about that….I’ll get somebody to get back to you.”
> 
> Gray responded via e-mail 2 hours later.
> 
> “I have spoken with my colleagues on the Public Affairs Team and as I  stated, with respect to your questions regarding Agents Provocateurs, the  Integrated Security Unit for the G8-G20 Summits will not discuss  operational details,” she wrote.
> 
> *Though Gray stated that “all police efforts will be lawful”*, this is not the first time that an ISU for a summit has been asked about Agent Provocateurs. Nor is it the first time they have refused to respond ....


----------



## Loachman

mellian said:
			
		

> Ask the average joe on the street and they remember more the protests and police than what the summits are about.



Just as they remember more about the protests and police than what the protests are about.

Perhaps if the protest groups took better steps to prevent the violent few from destroying property that other people worked very hard for, everybody would be happier - especially the property-owners.

A handful of people may actually remember what the protest groups' messages were as well.


----------



## Loachman

mellian said:
			
		

> That is like saying we should disband the Canadian Forces because of a few murders and rapists.



No, it is not.

For one, the organizational purposes are completely different, and secondly, the CF takes responsibility for the actions of its members, which the protest movement clearly does not.

Any CF member who commits a crime will be investigated, arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and punished in either the military or civilian justice systems as appropriate. I have yet to see a protest group turn a violent thug in their midst in to the police for suitable and proper treatment.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> Yay for media manipulation and human nature to pay attention more to violence and where the 'action' is at.



You (mellian) dont even have the ability to recognize the PR/image problem you (protesters) have, let alone adress it, so this will go around in a circle all day long. If the "peaceful demonstrators" dont take steps to deal with "the few", the message will always be lost.



> That is like saying we should disband the Canadian Forces because of a few murders and rapists.



I knew that is exactly what you were going to bring up. As my aviator freind Loachman has posted, the CF are self-policing and accountable to the public and problems are dealt with. None of you little groups are in that position.




> Ask the average joe on the street and they remember more the protests and police than what the summits are about.



And whos fault is that ?

 : maybe one day you will wake up......


----------



## Fishbone Jones

C'mon guys. You knew what you were getting into.  : There is only one person to blame for your exasperation and annoyance.


----------



## ballz

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Because they would be spending their time doing something actually productive?



No, I agree with you that the G8/G20 protesters are f**kin wack, stupid, and useless, and will accomplish nothing, but your rant seemed to go outside those specific protesters, it seemed more like a blanket statement about all protests in general.



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Does anyone even care about protests? I know when I drive by them in Ottawa all the time I don't really care. Their a nuisance and if they were standing beside a giant puddle I would go out of my way to splash them.



Quite frankly, I understood parliament being prorogued prior to the Olympics for many reasons, but I was more than happy to see a s**tload of Canadians actually exercise their rights as Canadians in a democratic country and go out and wave those signs, chant slogans, in a peaceful and collective manner. I think it's hard to say that they didn't get their message out, create awareness across the country that there is a lot of people pi$$ed off about this, or that the protest was about the protesters and not the message.

Like I said, I will be more worried when people aren't protesting a war, some environmental issue, (insert random issue here), etc, whether I agree with them or not, than one day we go to war and nobody suggests anything to the contrary... then there would be a real reason to worry.


----------



## mellian

> Just as they remember more about the protests and police than what the protests are about.
> 
> Perhaps if the protest groups took better steps to prevent the violent few from destroying property that other people worked very hard for, everybody would be happier - especially the property-owners.
> 
> A handful of people may actually remember what the protest groups' messages were as well.



What can the protest groups do that will not result into violence to prevent the few that commit violence and vandalism, short from calling them out on it and refusing to get involved in those acts? They have no authourity to use force, and if they tried, the police and security would still swoop in and arrest/tear gas/rubber bullet people to stop it the violence no matter its origin. 

As you mentioned below, there is complete differences in organization. Multiple groups of many individuals plus many more individuals without any groups who only come together for one general reason and nothing else. Can say it is as close one can get to rough consensus anarchy (ideal version, not chaos or black bloc). 




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> No, it is not.
> 
> For one, the organizational purposes are completely different, and secondly, the CF takes responsibility for the actions of its members, which the protest movement clearly does not.
> 
> Any CF member who commits a crime will be investigated, arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and punished in either the military or civilian justice systems as appropriate. I have yet to see a protest group turn a violent thug in their midst in to the police for suitable and proper treatment.



No matter the differences in organization or how one deals with their bad apples, the logic still stands. How does one convince the many to just stop or disband because of the actions of few? Trouble enough to get rights of the minority protected in this country or any other. Just look at Thailand recently.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

mellian said:
			
		

> May not agree, but many others do not. Discredit them as much as you like base on the actions of few, but remember that the same can be done for other groups and organizations as all unfortunately have their bad apples too.



Okay, riddle me this:  
The "legitimate" protesters go to an awful lot of time and organization to put these things together.  And they don't seem to lack intelligence.  So why is it they don't have a plan in place to isolate and immobilize anarchists?  If the groups worked with the police to stem the violence and property damage, that would give WAY more credibility to their message.  However, all I see are asshats taking pictures and enjoying a bunch of masked punks "sticking it to the man".  And they are perfectly happy to see said asshats getting tuned up.  Why couldn't those "camera enthusiasts" cooperate with a group who pull off an anarchists mask and then snap his pic?  With the understanding that the pictures will be turned over to the police?  



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Just as they remember more about the protests and police than what the protests are about.
> 
> Perhaps if the protest groups took better steps to prevent the violent few from destroying property that other people worked very hard for, everybody would be happier - especially the property-owners.
> 
> A handful of people may actually remember what the protest groups' messages were as well.



My point exactly.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> Trouble enough to get rights of the minority protected in this country .



Yeah, its horrible alright.   :




> Just look at Thailand recently.



Do you even understand whats going on there ?


----------



## mellian

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You (mellian) dont even have the ability to recognize the PR/image problem you (protesters) have, let alone adress it, so this will go around in a circle all day long. If the "peaceful demonstrators" dont take steps to deal with "the few", the message will always be lost.



You (CDN Aviator) seem to not have the ability, and making point to not try, to grasp the reality of handling large group of people from the perspective of the organizers and marshals. 

You propose the "peaceful protesters" do something about the few idiots that like to go up against the police, commit and vandalize. I am trying to draw you (and other readers in general) a picture of what a would be organizer/marshal has to deal with if they try dealing with the minority few idiots. 

First reality:  Protests comprising dozens to hundreds of different groups comprise of many of individuals (all civilians and majority non-violent pacifists/pro-solidarity) PLUS all the individuals (all civilians and majority non-violent pacifists/pro-solidarity) without any association or part of any group does equal well discipline organization with a set chain of command. 

Second reality: Whether or not we or anyone agrees about the purpose of a protest, or whether the organizers/marshals decide the protest/demonstration is a failure, they have no means to stop people to continue. 

Third reality: Organizers and marshals (usually from various groups with possible different agendas) can only really operate with consensus and to some degree influence. They also have no real authourity, especially that of force as the only folks that have that legally is the police and military in this country. People will only follow organizers and marshals because they can convince them too. If a few is vandalizing and committing violence, most they can do is verbally say so (with the response usually being f**k you) and possibly get others to verbally call them on it.

Fourth reality: The larger the protest/demonstration is, the more mob like it can become, and the harder to influence and convince. The difficulty increases the more riled up people are from stress, emotions, adrenaline, and such.

Fifth reality: All these factors apply to any protest/demonstration/marches/concerts/etc no matter the reason why they are there or protesting. 

I am saying all this from my experiences as a marshal/one of the organizers/observer of some past protests, demonstrations, and marches in Ottawa, and observer only for a few marches and one protest here in Montreal. Then is other non-activist events that I helped organized/managed/volunteer at where large amount of people are involved. 



> I knew that is exactly what you were going to bring up.



You were baiting for it.



> : maybe one day you will wake up......



How should I wake up?


----------



## mariomike

This thing has been described in the papers as a "disaster in the making". The City of Toronto urged them to have it at Exhibition Place instead of the  Metro Toronto Convention Centre on the edge of the Financial District:
"The recent announcement by the Prime Minister's Office regarding the G20 Summit is going to have a dramatic and difficult impact on our neighbourhoods. The federal government has chosen to locate the event in Ward 20 without any prior consultation. 
We need them to start working with us, and that means listening to us, and quite clearly, the folks up in Ottawa are much better at talking than listening.
It’s not the safety of the leaders that should be forefront in our minds, it’s the safety of the residences just outside the security perimeters.
The city has tried to convince Ottawa to move this event to Exhibition Place, but the federal government insists on staging it near Front Street, between Yonge and Spadina." 
Toronto Councillor Adam Vaughn represents Ward 20.

"Front St. wrong place for G20 leaders to meet: Editorial
By Toronto Sun":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2010/02/18/12937011.html

To me, this decision to relocate from Exhibition Place to The Metro Toronto Convention Centre makes about as much sense as President Obama deciding to host a G20 on Wall Street in NYC. 

The quote below from Mr. Wallace sums up my opinion about democratic life:



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> What I don't understand is why these groups need to protest?  If it wasn't for their complete apathy during Municipal, Provincial and National Elections, the greatest means available in this society to lodge a legitimate complaint in a legitimized forum for protest, then there would be no need for these forms of protest and their potential for violence and distruction.
> 
> If these people would exercise their democratic rights to vote and elected the people that they seriously thought could champion their causes, then we wouldn't have the riff raff causing problems for the rest of us at these events.
> 
> How come these supposed champions of all these fringe causes haven't figured out that when they don't exercise their franchise to vote in Municiple, Provincial, and Federal Elections, they really haven't any legitimate reason to complain.  Apathy on their part is no reason to use violence to champion a cause they were not dedicated enough to fight for come election time.  Why should we pay attention to them, if they can't be bothered to use legitimate means?  It speaks volumes as to who they are.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> to grasp the reality of handling large group of people from the perspective of the organizers and marshals.



Yeah, you are right. I have no idea what it is like to handle large groups and organize them. Where would i have picked up experiences like that..........oh wait......



> You propose the "peaceful protesters" do something about the few idiots that like to go up against the police, commit and vandalize.



Yup, thats exactly it. Ever think of reporting "the few" to the police during the protest or afterwards ? Or is that just not your responsability ?


----------



## Jarnhamar

mellian said:
			
		

> What can the protest groups do that will not result into violence



Don't show up with hoodies, bandana's, rocks and molitov cocktails.

When people start going ape shit don't egg them on by shouting and cheering, by taking pictures and giving them an audience.  Turn around and go the other way.
When they play shovey face with police officers surround them and make it VERY clear to them that what they are doing is unwanted and they should piss off.


----------



## mellian

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay, riddle me this:
> The "legitimate" protesters go to an awful lot of time and organization to put these things together.  And they don't seem to lack intelligence.  So why is it they don't have a plan in place to isolate and immobilize anarchists?  If the groups worked with the police to stem the violence and property damage, that would give WAY more credibility to their message.  However, all I see are asshats taking pictures and enjoying a bunch of masked punks "sticking it to the man".  And they are perfectly happy to see said asshats getting tuned up.  Why couldn't those "camera enthusiasts" cooperate with a group who pull off an anarchists mask and then snap his pic?  With the understanding that the pictures will be turned over to the police?



Lack of resources and lack of consensus. A long with the overriding goal of achieving some degree of solidarity among the multiple groups and focus on general goal. Then there is also fear (violent few, violence in general, police, etc) and distrust.

I know in Ottawa in the past, the closest that was managed was an agreement to keep their 'direct actions' separate from the peaceful marches/demonstrations.  Even then, have no control or authourity over the people, apart from informing them of "the plan" and schedule.

As for the photographers, most of them usually part of the media (independent or corporate or student), freelancers, and just random people.  Not much the groups can do anything about it, even if they wanted to.


----------



## mellian

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah, you are right. I have no idea what it is like to handle large groups and organize them. Where would i have picked up experiences like that..........oh wait......



As a organizer or/and marshal of the protest, as in one of the protesters and part of one the groups running/organizing/ whatever the protest? 



> Yup, thats exactly it. Ever think of reporting "the few" to the police during the protest or afterwards ? Or is that just not your responsability ?



Yes, just that it is a bit hard to report people you do not know especially those with masks, and those I do happen to know the Ottawa Police already knew. And to do so in the middle of a protest risk discrediting myself, removing any remote control or influence as marshal or one of the organizers. 

Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).


----------



## The Bread Guy

mellian said:
			
		

> Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).


If the group has ways of checking what you're up to and calling you on it, then the same methods can be applied to other individuals.  If the group decides to use these tools against possible police "collaborators" and not against people causing violence or damage, that reflects the group's priorities.  If you're not part of the solution....


----------



## mellian

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If the group has ways of checking what you're up to and calling you on it, then the same methods can be applied to other individuals.  If the group decides to use these tools against possible police "collaborators" and not against people causing violence or damage, that reflects the group's priorities.  If you're not part of the solution....



To clarify, it was not the group, it was random protesters in attendance that questioned me. As in, if I had a few deciding/convinced I was police collaborator, I would get ratted out and outcast not so similar manner they do with suspected police provacateurs.


----------



## ballz

Random protesters are part of the "group" no? I don't see how what you just said changes his point?

I'm all for protesting but I can't argue with the people here that are arguing with you about violent protesting... They are right. Right from the leadership on down there seems to be no intent to curb people from being retarded.


----------



## mellian

ballz said:
			
		

> Random protesters are part of the "group" no? I don't see how what you just said changes his point?



Group as in the people help organize/marshal with at the time, which I did not for the protests those two incidents happen. There is also multiple groups involved within a protest, not all on the same page about everything.



> I'm all for protesting but I can't argue with the people here that are arguing with you about violent protesting... They are right. Right from the leadership on down there seems to be no intent to curb people from being retarded.



I have a proposal:

Form a group that attend these protests starting the organizing meetings beforehand. Goal would a be combination of observing and aid in stopping/convince/aid police to locate stop and arrest those who commit violence and vandalism, all through legal means, as well promote organizers and marshal do themselves and help provide the means how. It is to make protests safer, more accountable, and make the jobs easier for the police. It would be way to know what really is going then debating and passing overarching judgment online.


----------



## PuckChaser

mellian said:
			
		

> Heck, I get flak just because I had a friendly chat with one officer or get asked if I work for the police just because because I had several officers come check me out as I was keeping my distance away from the march observing (when I was not a marshal).



If they didn't have the intent to do something illegal, there should be no reason they should have been scared of you talking to the Police. Being shifty around a cop usually sets off alarm bells.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

If your so called organizers and marshals cannot control the people they organized and marshalled they are neither. Just some sort of self important people that feel they have to be in charge of something, whether they can or not.

Please stop insulting our intelligence by giving these people some sort of stature they are not capable of fulfilling. It's obvious that once you people leave the basement, or wherever you have your meetings, and hit the street, you have no control over the rabble you've brought together, whipped into a frenzy and released on the rest of society.


----------



## The Bread Guy

mellian said:
			
		

> I have a proposal:
> 
> Form a group that attend these protests starting the organizing meetings beforehand. Goal would a be combination of observing and aid in stopping/convince/aid police to locate stop and arrest those who commit violence and vandalism, all through legal means, as well promote organizers and marshal do themselves and help provide the means how. It is to make protests safer, more accountable, and make the jobs easier for the police. It would be way to know what really is going then debating and passing overarching judgment online.



I guess the question should be:  with all the organizational work apparently going on among protest groups, why aren't they doing this?


----------



## mellian

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I guess the question should be:  with all the organizational work apparently going on among protest groups, why aren't they doing this?



"Lack of resources and lack of consensus. A long with the overriding goal of achieving some degree of solidarity among the multiple groups and focus on general goal. Then there is also fear (violent few, violence in general, police, etc) and distrust."


----------



## vonGarvin

mellian said:
			
		

> "Lack of resources and lack of consensus. A long with the overriding goal of achieving some degree of solidarity among the multiple groups and focus on general goal. Then there is also fear (violent few, violence in general, *police*, etc) and distrust."


Why fear the police?  I mean, given the history of these events, were I to protest, I would avoid all those fanatics with some spectacular, peaceful, non-intrusive event.  Like a concert with a big name.  Or topless women.  (Sex sells: seriously).  "Shirts off our backs, that's what (insert greedy corporation here) takes."  Let the rock throwers look like the jackasses that they are.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> As a organizer or/and marshal of the protest, as in one of the protesters and part of one the groups running/organizing/ whatever the protest?



That stuff is little league level organization. Have you ever organized 200 people putting up 3 bridges simultaneously at 3 different sites ?

Anyways, from all your previous posts, protests are largely unorganized mobs where the "leaders" have very little control so your organizational skills cant be that good.



> And to do so in the middle of a protest risk discrediting myself, removing any remote control or influence as marshal or one of the organizers.



So your excuse for not doing the right thing is that it might bring some protester heat on you ? If you had any credibility before, it is surely gone now. There's no excuse for not doing the right thing.


----------



## mellian

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That stuff is little league level organization. Have you ever organized 200 people putting up 3 bridges simultaneously at 3 different sites ?



Little league? Just entire different leagues entirely with different set of factors and goals.  



> Anyways, from all your previous posts, protests are largely unorganized mobs where the "leaders" have very little control so your organizational skills cant be that good.



Oranges and Apples. Protests is not a military unit of paid and trained soldiers that have discipline and structure with access to better resources, or even a company or government or police or a concert/game/event/conference. 




> So your excuse for not doing the right thing is that it might bring some protester heat on you ? If you had any credibility before, it is surely gone now. There's no excuse for not doing the right thing.



No, I am saying I was more effective and right working with others to do what we can to keep a protest peaceful and non-violent than try to be some kind of vigilante or spy/observer for the police who would just end up telling me to go home or possibly arrest me for interference.

Whatever the case, not even involved anymore.


----------



## mellian

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Why fear the police?



Not everyone trust them, especially when they are there in riot gear and armed with batons, tear gas, and guns. I do not fear the police, but I know how riled up they can be themselves during such intense events making it wiser to avoid them. 



> I mean, given the history of these events, were I to protest, I would avoid all those fanatics with some spectacular, peaceful, non-intrusive event.  Like a concert with a big name.  Or topless women.  (Sex sells: seriously).  "Shirts off our backs, that's what (insert greedy corporation here) takes."  Let the rock throwers look like the jackasses that they are.



Bit hard when the rock throwers follow and join the larger peaceful and non-violence protest around.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Has it ever occurred to you that if people didn't riot, the security forces would be overjoyed not to be geared up?   It's not the most comfortable or flattering ensemble, you know.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Two words.......Ohio State.
No seriously, the meetings aren't even being held in Canada, we all fell for the feint.....


----------



## vonGarvin

mellian said:
			
		

> Bit hard when the rock throwers follow and join the larger peaceful and non-violence protest around.


So, let me get this straight.   You protest this, and you protest that, and then the rock throwers come out.  I would offer next time you head out, you find a charismatic speaker, and when the rock throwers start to manifest (eg: they have masks on their faces, and their pockets are full of rocks, FYI), then protest THEM!  blockade THEM!  Turn them over to the police!  Complain that they are destroying your message of peace.  THAT, my friend, would buy you much more POSITIVE press than all the rock throwers.  And let's face it, Joe Q Paycheque couldn't give a damn about globalisation theories, and even less so when he sees images of unemployed youth damaging public property.  Now, if he saw OTHER unemployed youth protesting those hooligans, well, he just might take notice.

Because as a typical Joe Q Paycheque, I can tell you that those rock throwers only serve to piss me off and turn me OFF of their message.  Avoid Hyperbole, avoid generalistations, just focus on the message and work WITH the police to stop the rock throwers.  That would buy you more support than all the topless women you could muster


----------



## mellian

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Has it ever occurred to you that if people didn't riot, the security forces would be overjoyed not to be geared up?   It's not the most comfortable or flattering ensemble, you know.



Yes, especially during the summer heat of June.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _National Post_, shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the _Copyright  Act_:


> he University of Toronto will close its doors during the upcoming G20 summit, CTV Toronto reported yesterday. The university will set up a protest perimeter on university grounds, but only limited personnel will be allowed inside the premises from June 24 to June 27. The university said they decided to close the premises for four days when they found out Queen's Park would be the official protest zone. Some exams were rescheduled as a result. The university's close comes amidst security concerns. Last week, an anarchist group claiming responsibility for firebombing an Ottawa bank said they will make an appearance at the summit. In their online message, the group identified as FFFC stated, "On June 25 to 27, 2010, the G8/G20 'leaders' and bankers are meeting in Huntsville and Toronto to make decisions that will further their policies of exploitation of people and the environment. We will be there."




Some excerpts from the latest from SOAR (PDF attached if link doesn't work):

Why isn't MSM asking the _right_ questions?


> The G20 summit in Toronto is still more than a month away, and yet already the newspapers are excitedly setting the stage for a showdown. “Cops versus Protestors” they write, as if the people gathering together to demonstrate is somehow on par with the largest security deployment by the canadian state since the Second World War. 'Who are these scary violent protestors,' the newspapers ask, 'and why won't they answer my emails?'
> 
> But they never manage to ask the important questions, like why do we accept 15 000 cops invading our streets, while being scared when a few of our neighbours gather to protest? In this statement, we seek to answer some of the questions that the mainstream media should be asking, if their work was to be at all worthwhile.
> 
> (....)
> 
> The ruling elite, using the mainstream media as a tool, counts on us forgetting about the past obscenities by the time the next one rolls around. They count on us to have short memories, to not recognize the patterns, and certainly not to follow those patterns back to their root. And when we resist, they tell us that we're the ones in the wrong. Then they carry on reporting about the world and about communities as if violence was not in every aspect of our modern civilization. But the destruction of the earth is far more violent than sabotaged machinery, and the presence of armed uniformed thugs enforcing capitalist rule in our communities is far more violent than the destruction of corporate property. The capitalist state threatens our very lives with its violence -- capitalism exploits us to sell ourselves by the hour, and this earth is being poisoned at an increasing rate. The same money that runs the corporate media is the money that is running this earth to the ground.
> 
> For their role in pacifying us and excusing the ongoing, heinous actions of the canadian state and corporations, we consider the mainstream media to be totally complicit in those acts. For their lies, they share in the responsibility with the scumbags who will be assembling inside the security perimeter this June in Toronto. They are part of the oppressive structure that we want to dismantle.



"State violence", bad, "demonstrating our discontent", good!


> The state’s violence is routine and deliberate. It is not an accident. This violence is necessary for the capitalist, colonial system to continue. The mainstream media presents each killing, each oil spill, each military coup, each case of corruption as being an isolated incident, as an exception. They make all the right sounds, pretending outrage and regret, and sometimes they show us some lone scapegoat getting punished. They make excuses for the system, lulling us with sweet lies even as the system lurches already towards its next victim.
> 
> And when we rise up to demonstrate our discontent, the mainstream media faithfully make a few broken windows seem like unacceptable violence. But it doesn't take a lot of thought to see who are the truly violent members of our society. Are a few broken windows more important than the growing pile of corpses left by the occupation of afghanistan? Than entire communities stamped out by canadian mining companies? Than ecosystems and habitats destroyed by oil spills? Than yet another racialized youth murdered by cops? This system is built on violence, and as communities of resistance we must respond.



Whatever it takes...


> By taking to the streets, we are rejecting the power of self-proclaimed leaders to control our lives and to go on destroying the planet and enslaving its inhabitants. We are not asking the G8/G20 to change their policies – we do not want a kinder, gentler system of oppression. We are trying to stop these “leaders”, to make it impossible for them to enforce their twisted policies.
> 
> As anarchists, to achieve this goal, we build the alternatives we want to see – we organize grassroots community services, create spaces for education, publish media, grow our own food, and explore direct democracy and alternative models of conflict resolution. And as well, we use direct action to protect ourselves and our communities from destruction when they come under attack. We seek to build communities based on freedom and mutual aid while actively resisting the violence of the state. We believe in a diversity of strategies and tactics, and we stand with all who resist.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from Global TV/CanWest:


> Security costs for the G8 and G20 summits, which are being billed as the biggest security events in Canadian history, are expected to increase fivefold over original estimates and reach almost $1 billion.
> 
> A spokeswoman for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews acknowledged Tuesday that the federal government has budgeted up to $930 million —a dramatic increase over the $179 million set aside in the March budget.
> 
> Christine Csversko said the costs are based on a "medium-level threat assessment" and she cautioned that the final bill will not be known until the summits are over.
> 
> "The scope and magnitude of the security operations associated with hosting two major summits back to back is unprecedented — representing the largest deployment of security personnel for a major event in Canadian history," Csversko wrote in an e-mail ....


----------



## mariomike

"Hospitals prepare for G20 injuries":
"the prospect of mass injuries is very real":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/814291--hospitals-prepare-for-g20-injuries


"In Pittsburgh, the total number of room-nights booked was 26,000, VisitPittsburgh says. The RCMP alone wants twice that number. 
The heavy hitters include the “four diamond” airport properties run by Westin and Marriott as well as the Old Mill Inn and Spa near the Kingsway."
http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/toronto/archive/2010/03/18/rcmp-needs-5-500-rooms-during-g20-summit.aspx

I love the Old Mill. It is very near to where I live. I have never stayed overnight there, but have been there countless times for dinner dances, Sunday brunch, wedding receptions, and week-night drinks. You will not want to go home after they spoil you!:
http://www.oldmilltoronto.com/accommodations.html


----------



## R. Jorgensen

Oh lordy...

WHERE CAN I SIGN UP?  ;D :

Just kidding, I'm all for using your right to peaceful demonstration... but it still sickens me. We're not Europe, a protest isn't going to change anything because our government is scared of us and fears another revolution.


----------



## Kat Stevens

ANOTHER revolution?  Did I miss something?  My satellite receiver was down for a while.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> ANOTHER revolution?  Did I miss something?  My satellite receiver was down for a while.



Have you ever wondered why most European nations have free, socialized Post-Secondary education? Sure, they pay a little bit more in taxes than we do, but damn is it worth it (watch Michael Moore's Sicko); it's because the people demanded it. In Europe, the government is afraid of the people (because of past revolutions, the governments fear that if they do not please the people; there will be another revolution) so what tends to happen when the people make a big stink about something (and most of the time are nearly 100% non-violent demonstrations) - they correct it, make the nation happy and move on.

However in North America, it's exactly the opposite. The people are affraid of the government, the government decides what goes and what doesn't and the only reason why the demonstrations get violent is because the government oppresses protest and does not consider changes when such occurences arise (sure, you can't always give in to the populace - but that's what elections are for   ). Europe has a good hold on democracy (Canada not so bad, reminds me of Denmark a little bit - except Denmark has free Univ and much better social services); North America is unfortunately flawed in it's democratic ways.

Although, I'm not complaining about Canada, I love it here  ;D (Free Post-Secondary would be nice though  :crybaby: )


----------



## Thompson_JM

mellian said:
			
		

> Not everyone trust them, especially when they are there in riot gear and armed with batons, tear gas, and guns. I do not fear the police, but I know how riled up they can be themselves during such intense events making it wiser to avoid them.



Little Theory here.... Maybe its because they are genuinely concerned about being able to go home at the end of the day to see their family.... 

Something about being heavily outnumbered by a bunch of ninja mask mouth breathing "Anarchists" (who lets face it... if these lands truly resorted to anarchy, would very quickly become some Hells Angels B***) who want to do nothing more then try to destroy a city and watch it burn....

I still cant figure out why you want to join the Canadian Forces....  You seem to embrace everything it is not...  Or is this just another protest to 'buck' the system... another Non-Conformist Statement?

Seriously.... The CF is not a @#$ing Job... its a career and a lifestyle choice.... It becomes a HUGE part of who you are. Hell... I'm a reservist with 12 years of Part time service and its done more for me as far as who I am and my core values then anything I've ever done anywhere else... I can only imagine the full timers and how much its become a part of who they are.

I don't know how you think you could survive a career in the CF.... hell, I don't know how you think you'll survive a week at St Jean...

Since you clearly lack one of the most important skills a Private recruit needs to know to survive... Pick your battles....

Gah.... Now I'm all riled up.....   Damned Anarchists....


----------



## zipperhead_cop

mellian said:
			
		

> As for the photographers, most of them usually part of the media (independent or corporate or student), freelancers, and just random people.  Not much the groups can do anything about it, even if they wanted to.



Well, since you are the organizer, you put one in charge of documenting unlawful action.  Or do it yourself.



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> And to do so in the middle of a protest risk discrediting myself,  removing any remote control or influence as marshal or one of the organizers.



Ah!  And there is the crux of it.  You care more about your "street cred" with these donkeys than obeying the law and assisting the legitimate authorities.  It wouldn't be "cool" to do and you'd be excluded from being one of the insiders anymore.  That is pathetic and is beyond lacking in integrity. 
And you already stated you have no control after you are on the street, so unless you are directing people towards civil disobedience, you know you have no control.  



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> So, let me get this straight.   You protest this, and you protest that, and then the rock throwers come out.  I would offer next time you head out, you find a charismatic speaker, and when the rock throwers start to manifest (eg: they have masks on their faces, and their pockets are full of rocks, FYI), then protest THEM!  blockade THEM!  Turn them over to the police!  Complain that they are destroying your message of peace.



Ah, but then they'd lose their street cred and not be invited to the next "Act Like An Arsehole In Public And Pretend To Have A Message" get together.  All of these "peaceful protesters" condone and support the violence by their failure to act or even speak out when there are anarchists in with them.  They get off on them "sticking it to the man" but are even bigger bed wetters because they just watch and won't step up for their hickory massage.  



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> Because as a typical Joe Q Paycheque, I can tell you that those rock throwers only serve to piss me off and turn me OFF of their message.



But the rock throwers don't HAVE a message.  They are just tools living in mom's basement that need to break things but not be held accountable for it.


----------



## vonGarvin

Now, of course, if those rock throwers turned into rock painters, I'd be pretty happy with that lot ;D

Now, for "Big Beef": ever wonder why the Euro is going into the toilet?  Those so-called "free" things such as post secondary, healthcare, etc.  Well, they aren't exactly free.  They are paid for by taxpayers.  So, Joe Q Highschool Graduate may not shell out that money, but Joe Q Taxpayer is.  

PS: Avoid Michael Moore.  That fat little mouth breathing hypocrite is as bad as Josef Goebbels.


----------



## heavygunner

Technoviking said:
			
		

> PS: Avoid Michael Moore.  That fat little mouth breathing hypocrite is as bad as Josef Goebbels.



hahaha  ;D well said.


----------



## Journeyman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> That fat little mouth breathing hypocrite is as bad as Josef Goebbels.


Nice. 12 pages before resorting to Mike Godwin's _reductio ad Hitlerum._   ;D


----------



## vonGarvin

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Nice. 12 pages before resorting to Mike Godwin's _reductio ad Hitlerum._   ;D


:rofl:
Almost, but not quite.  But, prior to my _reductio ad Goebbelsum_, it went to _reductio ad Fatheadum _  >


----------



## The Bread Guy

<non-nazi Michael Moore tangent>


			
				Big Beef said:
			
		

> .... (watch Michael Moore's Sicko) ....


If Cuba's health system is so great, why are Canadians donating used hospital equipment to Cuba?
MEMO Cuba
Health Partners International Canada
<non-nazi Michael Moore tangent>

Back to the Protest Watch, attached is some of what Canadian Civil Liberties Association says should be kept in mind about security vs. Charter rights - an excerpt:


> .... International experience demonstrates that prior contact between demonstrators and law enforcement can facilitate peaceful protests, and CCLA recognizes that it is not necessarily negative for the police to reach out to protesters prior to demonstrations. The way in which this outreach is done, however, needs to be carefully planned and executed to ensure that the outcome is facilitating peaceful protest, rather than intimidating or threatening those who may want to express dissent.
> 
> Law enforcement should approach protesters in a non-confrontational manner, and it must be made clear from the outset that answering questions, or engaging in any dialogue, is entirely voluntary. Attempts to contact individuals should be made by mail or email first, as per normal business practice. If it is decided that a telephone call or personal visit may be more productive in establishing a dialogue, officers should attempt to pre-arrange a meeting, and approach individuals at a mutually agreed-upon time and place. Under no circumstances should officers approach individuals in large intimidating groups, late at night, or at people’s workplaces ....



More in the attachment.


----------



## mellian

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> <non-nazi Michael Moore tangent>If Cuba's health system is so great, why are Canadians donating used hospital equipment to Cuba?



Maybe because a lot of the medical equipment is american and they are still have their embargo up?


----------



## ArmyRick

Interesting stuff to read on this thread so far


----------



## Remius

The thing that bothers me is that these protesters and their "diversity of tactics" don't realise that they marginalise themselves.  I've seen many protests in Ottawa.  Back when I worked for the NCC, almost every week there was some form of protest and yeah, the police were there dressed and equipped just in case.  Most of the protests were peaceful but you always have a few that cross the line and the police _reacted_ not provoked.  Just a few weeks ago we saw a large protest against abortion.  Not sure what the numbers were but the last one before it was somewhere around 10 000 people.  Nothing smashed, no gas or batons or pepper spary.  Why?  they organised themselves properly, respected the law and yet they got the media's attention with a focus on the issue, not the event.  The yahoos going to the G8/G20 are out to cause problems.  It will completely take away from their causes and the focus will be on the conflict and crap that is stirred up with only a passing mention of what they think they stand for.  I feel sorry for legitimate groups that will have their voices drowned out by these jerks.  They are their own worst enemies.


----------



## hugh19

Mel, my now ex wife is Cuban. Sheloves Castro too LOL. But from what I can tell the cubans need help because of Castro. Not the embargo. If the Americans lifted the embargo the government would be in serious trouble as who would they blame then for their own incompetence? You know in Cuba you would be in jail for what you get to freely say here?


----------



## mariomike

National Post:
"If it costs a billion dollars to bring together world leaders without having demonstrators tear them to pieces, perhaps we shouldn’t be doing it at all. And if it really needs to be done, why pick the most populous area of Canada to do it in? How much would it cost to rent out a banquet hall in Iqaluit?"

"The previous estimate of $179 million in March has since ballooned to nearly a billion dollars, reminiscent of the Olympic security fiasco originally budgeted at $175 million that ended up coming in at over a billion.":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/26/next-time-g20-poohpahs-should-bring-their-own-security/#ixzz0p5nzTd1l

Toronto Sun:
"But $1 billion for a two-day meeting?
“That’s a subway line,” said Kevin Gaudet of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation...":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/05/26/14106821.html

Rex Murphy:
"One billion dollars, zero sense: 
So why are the leaders gathering in the middle of Canada's most populous city when the very idea of interacting with any of the city's population is absolutely impossible?":
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=3075851

CBC: "Where the money could've gone":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/05/26/f-g8-g20-security-where-the-money-could-have-gone.html


----------



## mellian

Crantor said:
			
		

> Why?



Each general issue and message of protest will attract different kind people to the protest/demonstration, as well different kind of organizations and organizers. I mean, a church led protest will have better resources and coordination than an anti-war or anti-capitalism groups. 

Also, in compare to other cities, protests in Ottawa tend to be pretty tame and Ottawa Police/local RCMP have more experience and usually better relations (at least communications) with the usual groups and organizations that have protests/demonstrations/marches. Whenever the capitol had something like G8/G20 or Bush coming to town, tend to attract more of the militant protesters from other cities. I remember some folks coming to Ottawa taking issue and question us having a dedicated police liaison and passing them a long our plans/routes.


----------



## Thompson_JM

mariomike said:
			
		

> National Post:
> "If it costs a billion dollars to bring together world leaders without having demonstrators tear them to pieces, perhaps we shouldn’t be doing it at all. And if it really needs to be done, why pick the most populous area of Canada to do it in? How much would it cost to rent out a banquet hall in Iqaluit?"
> 
> "The previous estimate of $179 million in March has since ballooned to nearly a billion dollars, reminiscent of the Olympic security fiasco originally budgeted at $175 million that ended up coming in at over a billion.":
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/26/next-time-g20-poohpahs-should-bring-their-own-security/#ixzz0p5nzTd1l
> 
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/26/next-time-g20-poohpahs-should-bring-their-own-security/
> 
> Toronto Sun:
> "But $1 billion for a two-day meeting?
> “That’s a subway line,” said Kevin Gaudet of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation...":
> http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/05/26/14106821.html




I can agree with that....  Speaking as one of the many Reservists who lost his B/A contract due to restructuring and cutbacks which no doubt the Olympics and G8/20 certainly played a part in.....

There is no way a two day conference can be so beneficial and productive that it costs 1 billion dollars just for the security.... not to mention the inevitable cost of damages that all the stupid protests/riots will cause, plus the lost revenue to business' affected by the security grid etc.... 

I think you're on to something Mike.... maybe we should be having these things somewhere like Nunavit.... Its a hell of a lot easier to do security there..... 
I mean for what we are paying, you could probabbly build a bomb shelter to run the whole thing in.......


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _Toronto Star_:


> Riotous protesters marching at the G20 summit next month may be greeted with ear-splitting “sound cannons,” the latest Toronto police tool for quelling unruly crowds.
> 
> Toronto police have purchased four, long-range acoustic devices (LRAD) — often referred to as sound guns or sound cannons — for the upcoming June 26-27 summit, the Star has learned.
> 
> Purchased this month, the LRADs will become a permanent fixture in Toronto law enforcement, said police spokesperson Const. Wendy Drummond.
> 
> “They were purchased as part of the G20 budget process,” Drummond said. “It’s definitely going to be beneficial for us, not only in the G20 but in any future large gatherings.”
> 
> Drummond stressed the devices will primarily be used by police as a “communication tool.” The devices double as loudspeakers and can blast booming, directional messages or emergency notifications in 50 different languages; Drummond said Toronto police have used one of the devices already while executing a search warrant this month ,,,,



And what advice does the Canadian Civil Liberties Association have on using such hardware?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-937965.html#msg937965


> There are a number of newer crowd control weapons that have not yet been employed in Canada. In general, these weapons target groups of people, rather than individuals. In many cases the health effects are not well known and give rise to serious concerns.  CCLA is particularly concerned about the possible use of the Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD, or sound cannon). We request assurances that LRAD will not be deployed at the G20. If the LRAD will be deployed, we request that the ISU follow the Vancouver Police Department’s lead and disable the ‘alert’ function of the weapon.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The CCLA note on sound cannons can be found here.  Coincidentally, searches for "firebomb", "molotov" and "brick" have no results indicating their potential health risk to the target audience.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The CCLA note on sound cannons can be found here.  Coincidentally, searches for "firebomb", "molotov" and "brick" have no results indicating their potential health risk to the target audience.


None in the document attached to the other post, either - funny, that...


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the_ Toronto Star_:


> Ottawa will not reimburse property owners for broken windows or other protest-related damage during the G20 summit, says Councillor Adam Vaughan.
> 
> “It’s absolutely unacceptable,” Vaughan told reporters Thursday. “They’re bringing this party to town. They know what accompanies this sort of event. For them to walk away from small businesses…is an absolute disgrace.”
> 
> Property owners in the downtown Entertainment District have trouble obtaining insurance coverage due to the presence of revellers, he said.
> 
> The city asked Ottawa to post a bond to cover damage claims, but the federal government has said no to compensation, he said ....



This from the _Globe & Mail_:


> The federal government won’t compensate property owners in downtown Toronto for damage sustained during next month’s G20 summit.
> 
> A May 21 e-mail from a G20 Foreign Affairs liaison says that while businesses can apply for ex-gratia compensation “related to financial loss as a result of the extraordinary security measures” associated with the summit, “if there are losses or damages caused by third parties, including vandalism, payment will not be provided. … These types of damages are insurable under normal insurance coverage.”
> 
> The federal government is spending close to $1-billion on summit security, much of it going to protect delegates and maintain order in Toronto’s densely populated downtown core.
> 
> That figure dwarfs the amount spent on security for previous summits – Ottawa has attributed that discrepancy to the fact that this will be the first double-header G8 and G20 summit.
> 
> “The federal government has reneged on what we thought was a commitment to pay for damage done during the G20. So store owners, condominiums, private homeowners, all within the private security zone - if their windows are broken or their cars are damaged or any other property damaged as a result of protests or God knows what, the federal government has said they won’t compensate people,” Mr. Vaughan said ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

It's starting....


> First signs of G20 protest show up in Toronto. ATM's spray painted at TD, Scotia and RBC. Pictures to follow.


Toronto photojournalist's photos of some G20 damage at ATMs:










More from the Canadian Press:


> One person has reportedly been arrested for allegedly spray-painting anti-G20 slogans on several banks in downtown Toronto.
> 
> CP24 reports at least five banks and several ATMs were targeted and that a suspect went from bank to bank on a bicycle.
> 
> The vandalism comes hours before officials hold a news conference in Toronto to announce security plans for the summit next month ....




More on the noisemakers:


> Some of the "unprecedented" security measures police have adopted to keep the peace during the upcoming G8/G20 conferences in Ontario border on intimidation and could squelch dissent, say civil liberties watchdogs.
> 
> Their concerns include the possible deployment of ear-splitting "sonic cannons," unannounced police visits with protesters leading up to the summit and unnecessarily large security perimeters.
> 
> "We need to be protecting (protesters') rights just as much as we're protecting the leaders at the summit," said Abby Deshman, project director of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.
> 
> Toronto police have purchased four long-range acoustic devices (LRADs), which can be used to transmit messages over a long distance — but can also emit high-pitched sounds.
> 
> Deshman said these devices are a concern because they can cause permanent damage if people are exposed to the sounds for too long. "We view it as a weapon," she said.
> 
> Meaghan Gray, a spokeswoman for the force's Integrated Security Unit, said Thursday the devices were purchased primarily to make public announcements. They can transmit messages in multiple languages, she said.
> 
> However, Gray said police have not ruled out the use of the high-frequency alert function as a way to "get people's attention," but added that the function would only be used in quick blasts — lasting two to five seconds — if deployed ....



Parliament's budget watchdog looking into summit costs:


> Parliament’s budget watchdog is turning his careful financial eye to the massive $1-billion security bill estimated for the next month’s G8 and G20 summits.
> 
> Kevin Page confirmed this afternoon his office is debating the objectives, approach, timing and dimensions of an investigation into the costs, which appear to have dramatically escalated over several months, to secure the summits that will take place in Huntsville and Toronto over only three days.
> 
> Mr. Page and his office are responding to a request from the NDP to investigate, which they received Wednesday ....



Rex Murphy's take:


> .... Summits are the high holy days, the carnival of ritual protest and vacuous street theatre. You can't hold a "global" anything these days, even a joyful event like the Olympics, without the tired kabuki of protest groups jamming the streets, shouting their impenetrable litany of anti-everything. They're always acccompanied, of course, by the usual band of black-masked pseudo-anarchists allergic to Starbucks and thirsty for the two-day fame a little provocation or a lot of violence can bring them ....



Some socialistproject.ca highlights:


> .... Though much of the debate in the corporate media has focused on security threats, fences, the relocation of weddings, consistently typecasting the mobilizations as the protestors pitted against the cops – conversations on the ground are markedly different. Lesley Wood is an organizer with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty and a sociologist who has studied large mobilizations for over a decade. Wood noted that: “Since Seattle in 2001 when the anti-globalization movement had its coming out party, many have questioned the lack of participation of community groups and ongoing campaigns in large mobilizations. People doing anti-police brutality work, organizing in housing, growing food, fighting for childcare have sometimes struggled to connect their local struggles with one-time circuses that come through their city.” Wood believes that Toronto is seeing a coalescing of social movements and as June 2010 comes closer, participation from community groups in Toronto has greatly increased.
> 
> “Having seen the bruised faces of our mothers; the broken legs of our youth; the public humiliation of our neighbours; summer curfews and the militarization of our schools, our communities are constantly reminded that law enforcement does not solve crime it sustains it; just like military efforts around the world do not create peace, they destroy it,” says Greg Walsh, an activist in the Jane and Finch community who sees resistance to the G20 as part of his everyday work ....



Canadian Trucking Alliance asked to keep an eye peeled:


> CTA met with RCMP representatives to discuss impacts of the G8 and G20 Summits which take place June 25, 26 and 27 in Huntsville and Toronto, respectively.  RCMP officials discussed the valuable role carriers can play in assisting security during these events by reporting any irregular activity, such as thefts and other suspicious behaviour to officials as soon as the incident occurs.
> 
> RCMP officials appealed to all Canadian carriers to keep an eye out for and report suspicious behaviour, as potentially dangerous activities aimed at the G8 and G20 Summits could originate in any part of the country.  As well, due to the large number of carriers on the road at all times, security officials may appeal to the trucking community act as “look-outs” should a security threat be identified....



_- edited to re-arrange stories, add CP coverage -_


----------



## Jarnhamar

These protests are just turning into venues for people to cause damage.  Just like Halloween is turning into a chance for people to dress like cheap Hollywood prostitutes, or worse. 
What kind of message does spray painting an ATM have? You're rebelling against the world bank and bankers for the economy? Or you're a prick with a can of paint.   


Mellian,
I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I'm posting this here so if I'm out of line, the Mods (and our fellow posters) can tell me so and sort me out, including apologies. (Also because I'm using this thread as an example)

I've been reading a lot of your posts, even going back a ways to your post history. The fact that you really really want to join the CF is pretty obvious (and to be respected IMO).

As far as being "old school, new school" army, I'm all new.  As far as posters here go I think I'm pretty liberal in my views. (Not the political party, I mean open to new ideas and new ways of thinking).

That said it's still the military and there is still a certain flavor or way of thinking. I'm struggling to find the word. I hate the with us or against us attitude.   Despite differing opinions among soldiers  there is still a certain core of beliefs or mind set.  Reading your posts I get the feeling that you "don't get it".  I get the feeling that if and when you join the CF you'll be constantly questioning everything and challenging what you are taught and told. Do you think it's going to be a constant uphill battle for you? Do you think your entire career will involve you challenging the system and trying to change it? Are you going to be able to follow orders you don't like or agree with? Do you really think the military is the place for you? Not to promote group think but I have a little bit of time in and I can tell you that it's not all about skill and brains. If you don't mesh well with your peers it's not as rewarding an environment to be in..

So I'm reading your posts about protesters and it feels like you are trying to play down the damage chaos and havoc that they are creating. There are a few cliche bad apples and they are ruining it for everyone- then you compare it to "bad apples in the military".

To effectively have the same sort of "few bad apples" in the military we would be having platoons or whole companies of soldiers over in Afghanistan raping pillaging and shooting civilians. Burning business's, setting things on fire and clashing with local authorities with no other reason than they represent law. Not just single soldiers here and there, guilty of rape, assault and murder. Among your peace and love protester's are roving bands smashing and setting fire to anything in their path, including people.  
Please stop comparing protesters and the trouble makers there to the military and the trouble makes we have. The ratio is pretty skewered.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Nice post...............


----------



## The Bread Guy

_- edited to add spray paint arrest story -_

This from the _National Post_:


> Police have arrested a Toronto man in connection with anti-G20 graffiti spray-painted on downtown banks overnight.
> 
> Vandals spray-painted slogans such as “Resist G20″ and “Stop the G20″ on bank walls, windows and ATMs along Spadina Avenue between College and Dundas Streets.
> 
> The screens of several ATMs had been covered in spray paint, as had a parked police vehil.e
> 
> Samuel Bradley Kadosh, 22, has been charged with nine counts of mischief under $5,000. Police are looking for at least one other suspect.
> 
> A witness told CP24 she saw two white men in their early 20s spray paint a TD Canada Trust branch before disappearing into a nearby alleyway. Both were dressed in black; black bandanas covered their faces ....




PDF of security zone map attached - here's some of the news release - highlight mine for those who say "but the leaders won't be able to see us":


> .... There will be an area around the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in which vehicle and pedestrian traffic is controlled.  As with most international summits, security fencing will be used to secure this area.
> 
> Security perimeterThe exact location of this security perimeter is represented on the attached map.
> 
> The fence will be erected in the weeks leading up to the Summit.  The Toronto Police Service hopes that members of the public will be able to move freely throughout the fenced perimeter until the evening of Friday, June 25, 2010.  However, the Toronto Police Service will have the ability to control access to this area in the days leading up to June 25 if security reasons dictate such control.
> 
> Torontonians who live and work within this area have been offered a Registration Card in order to facilitate quick passage through the security checkpoints that will be part of the Toronto Police Service security perimeter.
> 
> Members of the public who have not received a Registration Card or who do not live or work in the area but require access into the security perimeter will have to present a piece of photo identification and clearly articulate a specific purpose and destination to be allowed through.  This process may take some time and those seeking access into the security perimeter are asked to exercise patience when doing so.
> 
> (....)
> 
> The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees freedom of thought, belief, opinion, expression and peaceful assembly.  The Integrated Security Unit values these rights and will work to uphold them while ensuring public safety, peace and good order are maintained in Toronto.
> 
> We believe most groups will want to express themselves in a peaceful and responsible manner.
> 
> However, we are preparing for any eventuality.  Any interaction police have with demonstrators will be measured, balanced and appropriate to the circumstances at hand.
> 
> (S)pecific charges will be applicable to anyone breaching a security perimeter or committing criminal offences.
> 
> The Integrated Security Unit has worked with the City of Toronto to identify North Queen’s Park as the Designated Speech Area.
> 
> *As a Designated Speech Area, it will be equipped with audio-visual equipment that will televise the activities at the Park to the delegates at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.*
> 
> It is our hope that people will take advantage of this area and express themselves in a peaceful, lawful way....


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Nice post...............



Yeah, but it just feeds the attention seeking tendencies.


----------



## The Bread Guy

No tables at designated protest sites:


> Keep the tables at home, protestors. At least that’s what one activist has been told by G20 security officials.
> 
> Toronto lawyer Bryant Greenbaum had hoped to set up a booth in both Huntsville and Toronto to hand out brochures and other information regarding TSX listing mining companies in Africa.
> 
> But in an e-mail exchange, an Integrated Security Unit official told him that officers won’t be allowing any tables in the designated protest zones.
> 
> “Surely I can not fully exercise my rights to freedom of expression and assembly if I must stand or sit on the grass holding on to documents and laptops with my spare hands,” Greenbaum said in an e-mail.



Don't like the sonic cannons Toronto Police are going to have handy? No worries - the Council of Canadians is here to help:


> The Council of Canadians will give away free earplugs during the G20 to protect people from the permanent hearing loss that may result from the sound cannons recently purchased by G20 security forces.  Police have announced that they have purchased four sound cannons or long-range acoustic devices to communicate with crowds during G20 protests. The devices can cause extreme pain and are only partially directional.
> 
> “Saying a sound cannon is a tool for communications is like saying waterboarding isn’t torture, just a tool for encouraging dialogue,” said Mark Calzavara, the Regional Organizer for the Council of Canadians. “These weapons affect a large area are used without accountability. The victims won’t know who fired them and won’t be able to prove they were targeted ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Why cops instead of troops?  Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> Public Safety Minister Vic Toews is one of those politicians who, if they think they see a chance to take a shot at the opposition, they take it. There are politicians like that on all sides of the political spectrum.
> 
> I raise that point because I think that instinct must surely explain this odd exchange, aired today on CTV's Question Period, in which host Craig Oliver discusses the $930-million tab for the security of the G8 and G20 summits with Toews. The summits are to be held on the same weekend in Canada at the end of June. The government had originally believed security would be somewhere around $150 million.
> 
> Oliver, like many Canadians and many journalists, wonders why the government just didn't use the army to guard world leaders rather than pay overtime, etc. to unionized police forces like the RCMP and OPP. Toews presents an odd argument: If we went with the soldiers, the Liberals would have got upset:
> 
> OLIVER: You're spending hundreds of millions of dollars here on RCMP overtime.
> 
> TOEWS: Yes.
> 
> OLIVER: Who made the decision not to use the army more, especially for rather simple security jobs like perimeter defence and things like that? Their basic salaries are dramatically lower and they don't get overtime. I mean why didn't you use the army?
> 
> TOEWS: Well we did, in fact, use the army in the Olympics. It's quite another thing when you start bringing the army in a civilian context, into a civilian setting. You know, of course, what the opposition parties would say, the Liberals, they would say the army in streets with guns. Do you remember that advertisement? It's exactly the kind of fear that Liberals want to invoke in terms of Canadians. Canadians understand that in a democracy you have the police rather than the army in the streets. And so those are political decisions you make, but I think they're very, from a perception point of view, very, very important.
> 
> OLIVER: So the fact that you were worried about what the Liberals might say could have cost Canadians a couple hundred million dollars?
> 
> TOEWS: What I'm very concerned about is that Canada has certain principles. We are a democratic nation. We don't resort to the military in our streets unless we come to very extreme circumstances. We obviously are working closely with the military on this, but we believe that the best, the best organization to conduct the security in a civilian context are police rather than military.




AG says she's ready to look at the bills....


> Auditor General Sheila Fraser is ready to look at the huge security costs for the G8 and G20 summit meetings next month.
> 
> ''Once the events have occurred and the spending has occurred we can look to see if it was done appropriately,'' she told CTV's Question Period on Sunday.
> 
> The billion-dollar tab for security prompted angry clashes in the House of Commons last week, with Public Safety Minister Vic Toews staunchly defending the costs.
> 
> ''It certainly seems like a lot of money,'' Fraser said. ''I think we have to understand better what is it for.''
> 
> She said the audit would be routine.
> 
> ''Given the amount of spending, it is something that we would normally look at in our financial work,'' she said ....



...while ANARCHISTS COMPLAIN ABOUT THE BILL?!?!?!


> .... Speaking at the 11th annual Montreal anarchist book fair Saturday, attendees criticized the federal government for spending such a sum to keep protesters at bay.
> 
> Jaggi Singh, 29, a book fair organizer who said he is planning to protest against the summits, dismissed the meetings as places "where rich men and women defend their interests against other rich men and women."
> 
> News about the massive security at the summits, far greater in terms of cost than previous summits, is "psychological warfare" meant to deter protesters. It won't work, he said. "We do have a permit to protest," added Singh. "It's called the Charter of Rights."




The World Socialists help spread the key messages:


> Security forces are using the twin summits to extend the police powers of the Canadian state.
> 
> A late-night fire-bombing of a Royal Bank branch in Ottawa in mid-May—reportedly perpetrated by individuals protesting against the use of Aboriginal land during the Vancouver Olympics and the bank’s funding of tar sands projects in Alberta—has provided the political climate for security forces to demand an even larger role in not only the lock-down of Toronto but in further attacking democratic rights across the country.
> 
> Of course, it cannot be ruled out that the attack was carried out by agents provocateurs from within the state’s security apparatus.
> 
> Canada’s Conservative government and police-security establishment are using next month’s summits to refine their techniques and operational capabilities for use in the event of social unrest and to acclimatize the population to police-state type measures.



(To be fair, even the World Socialists are clear about the (non)utility of firebombing and arson in "the workers' fight")


> Just as in the fire-bombing of a bank in Athens, Greece earlier this month that killed three bank workers, such “direct action” tactics do nothing to advance the cause of working people fighting against the everyday violence of the global capitalist system.




Union leader:  we should get someone to get the cops to stop instigating violence?


> Security needs for the G8/G20 may be “unprecedented” as the government claims, but so is the need for ordinary Canadians to be heard, says the union leader who made headlines at the Montebello summit for his attempts to stop undercover police officers from infiltrating a peaceful protest.
> 
> Dave Coles, president of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union says “as the G8/G20 looms, Canadians want to be assured they can confidently exercise their free speech rights, without the threat of police intimidation and violence, such as we saw the last time.”
> 
> “Protesters should be guaranteed that the government will not use police to incite violence again. Otherwise, how does legitimate dissent get a hearing?”
> 
> “At the same time, world leaders must know that they can come to Canada without having to worry about violence instigated by police agents to discredit those who want to assemble peacefully to express their views.” ....


----------



## Old Sweat

It's all so totally obvious. The powers of state repression are going to use the army to pretend to be, like, protestors and break, like stuff and things, y'know. It's like awesomely sinister. Too bad for them, the little voices in my head tipped me off.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Your foil hat seems to be particularly clear in its direction, OS  ;D


----------



## Michael OLeary

> Of course, it cannot be ruled out that the attack was carried out by agents provocateurs from within the state’s security apparatus.



It's got to be true, because that's how it works, ever since 31 August 1939, so sayeth Saint Godwin. patron saint of those who would accuse democracies of fascism.


----------



## The Bread Guy

You'll be glad to know that the Anarchisms Twitter feed has some good news for them:


> Communications security equipment safely arrived in BC and in transit to Toronto    (posted) about 10 hours ago  via HootSuite



They're also sharing a "protest zone map":


> #G20, Toronto protest zone map http://bit.ly/aVAbZa (posted)   about 10 hours ago  via HootSuite




Interested in security work?  Check this out on Kijiji:


> .... Do you have what it takes to be part of the largest security event in Canadian history?
> NOW HIRING: G8/G20 Summits Security Screening Positions $20-$24 per hour
> Contemporary Security Canada ULC. (CSC) is now hiring qualified Security Guards for the upcoming G8/G20 Summit in the Greater Toronto Area.
> 
> Key Highlights
> 
> All positions are full time (12 hour shifts, 60 hour week and paid overtime)
> Job terms range from June 15 to 28, 2010 (estimated)
> Industry leading pay and completion bonus (Rate with bonus ranging from $20-$24/hour)
> Accommodation, transportation, uniforms and most meals provided (some conditions apply)
> Opportunity to work the largest security event in Canadian history ....




Meanwhile, Linda McCuaig bemoans the painting of all protesters with a broad brush:


> If you're thinking they're just violent troublemakers, you've probably been listening too closely to the Harper government, which is hoping you'll succumb to its attempt to lump terrorists and peaceful protestors all together in one giant bin marked scary and anti-democratic .... It's sad that it needs to be noted that dissent is something worthy; that it used to be considered one of the cornerstones of democracy. John Stuart Mill, one of the giants of Western thought, argued in his classic text On Liberty that dissent is essential to freedom, partly because it challenges the prevailing dogma, which is often wrong.  Yet, rather than being treated as citizens exercising vital democratic rights, the dissenters who show up at the G20 will find themselves facing a phalanx of heavily armed police equipped with the latest assault toy: sound cannons that blast deafening noise of up to 143 decibels — well above the 85-decibel level considered safe for the human ear .... Last week Rex Murphy used his prominent spot on CBC TV to attack the G20 protestors as fame-seekers, “thirsty for the two-day fame a little provocation or a lot of violence can bring them.”  So, before they've even held up a placard, Murphy has maligned people who will have to risk tear gas and deafness to get a fraction of the airtime Murphy gets every week to bellow on behalf of the Establishment.



Note to Linda:  dissent =/= vandalism.  As for the "lump(ing of) terrorists and peaceful protestors all together in one giant bin marked scary and anti-democratic", the group's own words speak for themselves when it comes to how protesters will deal with the small number of the most violent provocateurs in their midst - lots in earlier posts in this thread (as well as some groups who clearly condemn violence and/or vandalism of private or public property) on that point.  Part of the solution, or part of the problem?


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the _Globe & Mail_ - as usual, highlights mine:


> The Canadian Civil Liberties Association is gathering human rights monitors to attend the G20 protests in June. The group is looking for about 45-60 individuals to work in pairs throughout the week of June 21 through 27, 2010, for four hours a day. They will be assigned to follow protests and take notes on what occurs, with an eye to watching how demonstrators are treated by police. Volunteers don’t need any legal training, but must take a CCLA training session prior to the G20. They will drop their notes off at CCLA headquarters after every shift, says general counsel Nathalie DesRosier, so that the group can take legal action if needed. But finding the right volunteers is not always easy, she acknowledged. *Monitors must be willing to walk along with the protests, risking arrest, pepper spray and sonic canon, and having to endure hours of endless chants. The monitors are also expected to be impartial, and can not be there because they want to take part in the demonstrations. “This means that if you are thinking of engaging in acts of civil disobedience, or if you think you may want to participate in the protest, you should not sign up to be a Monitor,” notes a release from the group. “You should also keep in mind that monitors may interact with the police, and there is a small chance of arrest, or being asked to testify in court. If you have personal reasons to be worried about interactions with the police, including outstanding arrest warrants or uncertain immigration status, you may not want to participate as a monitor.”* ....


----------



## Flavour Country

> (b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
> 
> (i) that is committed
> 
> (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and
> 
> (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and
> 
> (ii) that intentionally
> 
> (A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,
> 
> (B) endangers a person’s life,
> 
> (C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,
> 
> (D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or
> 
> (E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),



I hope police, security and military personnel don't become terrorists during the protests.........


----------



## PMedMoe

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> I hope police, security and military personnel don't become terrorists during the protests.........



What?   ???


----------



## Flavour Country

sorry, I quoted the law defining terrorism in canada.
I should have been more clear.


----------



## vonGarvin

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> I hope police, security and military personnel don't become terrorists during the protests.........


Dude, you sure are in Flavour Country, let me tell you.
eace:


But really, this pisses me off.  Looking at "the man" as the cause, rather than that thin line that keeps us all safe.  Now, the military will have a side show role in all of this, but the police will be on the front lines, protecting our properties from damage.  If you have a problem with that, I don't really give a fuck, young buck.  Just obey the laws of our great land, and all will be well.


			
				Flavour Country said:
			
		

> sorry, I quoted the law defining terrorism in canada.
> I should have been more clear.


Oh, you could not have been more clear, dude.  We get it.  You don't want the cops to become terrorists.  Yeah, that's right, "the man".  Because every one of those police officers just love smashing skulls.  :


----------



## PMedMoe

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> sorry, I quoted the law defining terrorism in canada.
> I should have been more clear.



Clearer than what?


----------



## aesop081

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> sorry, I quoted the law defining terrorism in canada.



Thanks. Us knuckle-draging military instruments of government oppression were too stupid to know that.


----------



## Flavour Country

Why is this exorbitant security necessary in the first place?
Surely the thousands of officers, private security, cameras, barricades, etc. aren't in place to protect "our properties from damage"


----------



## PMedMoe

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> Why is this exorbitant security necessary in the first place?
> Surely the thousands of officers, private security, cameras, barricades, etc. aren't in place to protect "our properties from damage"



Got anything to back that up?  Or are you just here to spout off?


----------



## Flavour Country

you don't think the security planned for this summit is excessive?

Especially if its only purose is to stop the protesters from breaking windows.


----------



## PuckChaser

The security planned is to stop people from harming the leaders of the most powerful nations in the world... whackjobs that firebomb local branches of a bank will probably not think twice about throwing the same molotov cocktail at another human being. Preventing idiots from smashing windows just because they can in the name of "anarchy" is just a positive side effect.


----------



## PMedMoe

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> you don't think the security planned for this summit is excessive?



No, I don't.



			
				Flavour Country said:
			
		

> Especially if its only purose is to stop the protesters from breaking windows.



Perhaps you should research your topic a little more thoroughly.


----------



## vonGarvin

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> you don't think the security planned for this summit is excessive?
> 
> Especially if its only purose (sic) is to stop the protesters from breaking windows.


No, I don't.
Think back to the so-called "Battle of Seattle"  Yes, that was 11 years ago; however, its effects are still being felt at meetings such as the G20 coming up.  World leaders from, well, around the world will be there.  Groups from all over are coming, and as stated in this very thread, some are coming not just to protest, but to wreak havoc.  I would offer that most coming have good intentions: protest what they see as something worthy of protest.

Now, for that minority who wish to wreak havoc, the police are there to keep order.  They do it in Montreal when the Habs win or lose various hockey games, and they will do it in Toronto.  

Now, I ask you, what do you think is the real reason behind all of this security?


----------



## Flavour Country

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The security planned is to stop people from harming the leaders of the most powerful nations in the world...





			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> World leaders from, well, around the world will be there.



It's unfortunate that finance ministers and central bank governors have become world leaders.

That being said, my original point still stands. If the actions of police and security at past G20 protests are any indication of the way they will conduct themselves in June, by canadian standards the police are the terrorists.

Pointing to a small group of radicals burning down a bank Ottawa as legitimate reasoning for these ridiculous measures is absurd.


----------



## vonGarvin

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> It's unfortunate that finance ministers and central bank governors have become world leaders.
> 
> That being said, my original point still stands. If the actions of police and security at past G20 protests are any indication of the way they will conduct themselves in June, by canadian standards the police are the terrorists.
> 
> Pointing to a small group of radicals burning down a bank Ottawa as legitimate reasoning for these ridiculous measures is absurd.


OK, Flavour Country, I understand that you find it easy to villianise the actions of the police as being unprovoked and unnecessary.  And yes, "finance ministers" are in fact leaders.  (Not just the PMs, the Presidents and Monarchy are leaders.  There are a broad range of them).  And please don't minimise the effects of a deliberate criminal act of arson.  That act had nothing to do with the reason why these measures are being implemented: they were planned long before those criminals committed that act of arson.  
The police aren't terrorists.  They are acting within the law.  If there are activities that are criminal, and they see this, then they will deal with them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Folks, it's obvious what cloth Flavour Country is cut from. He's entitled to his opinion. Rebutt if you will, but let's not go around in circles. If there is nothing new to be said, just don't say it. Negate the sameness and move along by ignoring it.

Flavour Country,

You're opinion is yours. You must have known that it would only cause controversy here. You are far from the first to come here and poke someone with a stick, trying to get a reaction. You've stated your view, and thanks, but if you have nothing new to add, please don't expect us to engage you.

It may do you well to read the Site Guidelines, especially  for what we consider trolling, etc.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Flavour Country

Technoviking said:
			
		

> The police aren't terrorists.  They are acting within the law.  If there are activities that are criminal, and they see this, then they will deal with them.




I agree that if protests turn to riots police must quell the violence and protect the public. It seems that the police are the ones inflicting most of the real violence however. I bet more protesters are injured by less than lethal munitions than police by... rocks? They're in riot gear and only a very small segment of idiots throw rocks at the police.

Anyway, tell me that police wont commit acts that intentionally injure, endanger lives and cause a serious risk to the the protesters health. The summit and the security measures to protect it fit the the criteria for a terrorist act in canada.


(





> b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
> 
> (i) that is committed
> 
> (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and
> 
> (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and
> 
> (ii) that intentionally
> 
> (A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,
> 
> (B) endangers a person’s life,
> 
> (C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,
> 
> (D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or
> 
> (E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),



Plus, police want nothing more than for a few idiots to throw some rocks so they can silence the masses.
Need you be reminded of the cops in quebec playing dressup to try and incite from violence from the protesters there?

recceguy,

I can assure you I'm not poking your members with a stick to get a reaction or "trolling", just stating an opinion.  One that while not held by many of your members, is held by a growing number of people.


----------



## vonGarvin

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> I bet more protesters are injured by less than lethal munitions than police by... rocks? They're in riot gear and only a very small segment of idiots throw rocks at the police.


This ain't no rock.  But as for throwing rocks at police, I agree with you: they are idiots, the rock throwers.







			
				Flavour Country said:
			
		

> Plus, police want nothing more than for a few idiots to throw some rocks so they can silence the masses.


Source for this, please?


			
				Flavour Country said:
			
		

> Need you be reminded of the cops in quebec playing dressup to try and incite from violence from the protesters there?


I remember that quite well, actually.  Those police were indeed in amongst the masses.  I agree with you that that was idiotic on their part; however, I hardly think that using this one case to universalise it is applicable.
I mean, given the photo below, does this mean that all they are saying, is give pieces of glass a chance?


----------



## Kat Stevens

"Silence the masses" ?      :rofl:

Been boning up on your Lenin, Mao, and Guevara,  I see


----------



## Flavour Country

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Source for this, please?



Source: myself. Can you think of a reason police would dress like radical protesters and have rocks in their hands? They couldn't even get the costumes right, did you see that guys sidewayzzz hat.


----------



## PuckChaser

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> Can you think of a reason police would dress like radical protesters and have rocks in their hands? They couldn't even get the costumes right, did you see that guys sidewayzzz hat.



Just because someone dresses like a retard, it makes them an undercover cop? Are all the rock throwers cops trying to get people in trouble? Maybe the RCMP staged the Ottawa bank firebombing just to justify their presence at the G20 protests.

More and more your posts are showing just how out of touch with reality you are. You've really jumped onto the wrong forum and tried to spout your anarchist BS. Nobody here is buying it.


----------



## Teeps74

Question.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/national-news/royal-bank-firebombed-ottawa-part-three

Read that and the other two threads. Then answer this question.

Do you feel that the security apparatus is going too far when supposed peaceniks are advocating violent action openly? Many long time posters on that board are not only making excuses on behalf of the bombers, but they are pushing for more such "action".

Sadly, with the wanton destruction wrought during Seattle, the security apparatus is now here to stay.  The police have offered to communicate with and come up woth solutions HOWEVER, the protest groups want nothing to do with "the man".

I have zero sympathy for the protestors. None. Until they get rid of altogether the violent factions that crash their party. Unfortunately, that will not happen, as, apparently, the "peaceful" protestors WANT that violent faction there.

Oh, and sources, well. Try a credible verifiable source.


----------



## mariomike

National Post:
"G20: Toronto to clear out bus shelters, trash cans, newspaper boxes: The City of Toronto is removing all transit shelters, garbage cans and newspaper boxes on streets within the G20 security perimeter and traffic-calming zone.
Overall, 1,000 pieces of street furniture will be removed, according to city spokesman Rob Andrusevich, for the purpose of “ensuring a safe G20 experience for everyone” during the summit happening later this month.":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/01/g20-toronto-to-clear-out-bus-shelters-trash-cans-newspaper-boxes/


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Like was said folks. Just variations of the same old, same old. Is it really worth it?


----------



## mellian

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The security planned is to stop people from harming the leaders of the most powerful nations in the world... whackjobs that firebomb local branches of a bank will probably not think twice about throwing the same molotov cocktail at another human being. Preventing idiots from smashing windows just because they can in the name of "anarchy" is just a positive side effect.



Do not need 1 billion dollars to do that for a two day event.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> *Should* not need 1 billion dollars to do that for a two day event.



I fixed that for you.  It would be great if we didn't need to spend any money on extra security, unfortunately the "extreme sport of rioting" gang have a different plan for keeping thousands of cops and soldiers entertained during the Summit.

Also, we have yet to see any breakdown of that reported "1 billion". How much of it is wages and other costs that would have been spent anyway, but now get cost captured to the event?


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I fixed that for you.  It would be great if we didn't need to spend any money on extra security, unfortunately the "extreme sport of rioting" gang have a different plan for keeping thousands of cops and soldiers entertained during the Summit.
> 
> Also, we have yet to see any breakdown of that reported "1 billion". How much of it is wages and other costs that would have been spent anyway, but now get cost captured to the event?



The amount of police officers they had when Bush came to Ottawa or even G8 or Montebello was much less than for G20 in 2001 with the formers resulting in being more all around peaceful, and the size of the protest was about the same with the unfortunate usual amount of the "direct actions" folks. Yes, Toronto protests will be much bigger and quite possibly more intense....but 1 billion? 

It would be great to get the break down, but it has already been suggested in various articles that they are using the event as an excuse to acquire some new tech and equipment that can be use beyond just protests they normally would not be able to get under their regular annual budgets. Otherwise, if it is all wages and overtime, then it would suggest they are trying to outnumber the protesters which has proven to not be all that effective in previous protests (at least the ones I was at).

Battle of Seattle was a disaster mainly because no one expected to go that out of control nor were ready for it. Been over ten years and multiple meetings and protests since, one would think much have been learned to provide security without ballooning the budget. Especially after Quebec, which I believe police tried to hard and ended up helped causing the fiasco there and then too. Deal with protests and all the aspects involved requires balance and escalations/de-escalations in small increments. I believe Ottawa Police was getting it right.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> ....but 1 billion?



Well, perhaps if you could explain exactly what level and activities are being planned for protesters, and guarantee it, then we could scale back the arrangements.  Without that information and assurances, planning for less than worse case and failing is not an acceptable approach.


----------



## mariomike

There is some discussion of overtime in the National Post:
"Oliver, like many Canadians and many journalists, wonders why the government just didn’t use the army to guard world leaders rather than pay overtime, etc. to unionized police forces like the RCMP and OPP. Toews presents an odd argument: If we went with the soldiers, the Liberals would have got upset":
OLIVER: You’re spending hundreds of millions of dollars here on RCMP overtime.
TOEWS: Yes."
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/31/vic-toews-tries-to-explain-1-billion-g20-tab/

Globe and Mail:
"Most of the city's 5,000 uniformed officers are expected to work during the G20 weekend next month."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-police-to-take-up-to-100-million-of-g20-security-funds/article1583548/
Likewise, Toronto's 800 Paramedics. All vacations have been cancelled for the month of June. 

National Post:
"promising double-time pay for 12-hour shifts, for nine days straight in the days leading up to and during the summit.":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/25/torontos-g20-plan-is-a-paranoids-dream/
“It’s a good deal for us,” said an officer. “We’ll make some good money.”

Globe and Mail:
"Toronto Police to take up to $100-million of G20 security funds":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-police-to-take-up-to-100-million-of-g20-security-funds/article1583548/

National Post:
"One has to wonder what message Toronto is trying to convey — or, rather, what message Ottawa is trying to convey, since *the city of Toronto urged Ottawa to hold the summit at the CNE grounds*,  where it could easily be ringed off without entirely disrupting normal life. But no. For some bizarre reason, the Conservatives insist on holding it in the centre of the city, perhaps to impress all the other political heavyweights with Ottawa’s ability to bring the country’s biggest city to a screeching halt on a summer weekend."

If you are going to host a riot potential riot, the EX is a better venue for it. 
I remember being sent into this one. Folding metal chairs were flying through the air like frisbees!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrIUhGUQuo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXO-lBDadzc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZiJ5WwO3do&feature=related

CITY-TV:
"The federal government will not be compensating any business owners during the summits.":
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/international/article/77936--protesting-the-g20-with-graffiti

National Post:
"G8/G20: How the money is being spent":
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/politics/money+being+spent/3104265/story.html


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Well, perhaps if you could explain exactly what level and activities are being planned for protesters, and guarantee it, then we could scale back the arrangements.  Without that information and assurances, planning for less than worse case and failing is not an acceptable approach.



This sort of mentality is part of why communications and relations between the police/security and protest groups/main organizers tend to always breakdown, and in turn risk fiascos of Seattle and Quebec. 

Most of the organizers and their groups/organizations involved in the planning of the G20 have the goal of peaceful protest, and will do whatever they can to make that happen, and keep it away from any more violent actions and confrontations. They will also try to keep reason with any groups planning 'direct actions' to not do so among the peaceful majority, if not doing them at all. Meanwhile, they will also try to plan and be ready for the worse. Medics, marshals, monitors, lawyers on standby to deal with arrests, food areas, etc. They will know they will be able to predict or be able to anything about the 'direct action' folks apart from discouraging and try to keep them separate. 

All this organized by committees that usually operate in consensus manner and comprise mainly volunteers. Then in the day or so before and even during, there will be larger meetings for those interested that provide the  'Plan' , with some questioning it and being against it (usually from some 'direct action' folks). Hopefully this 'Plan' will be communicated online and flyers.

To help encourage peaceful protest, police need to be able to tell the difference between peaceful crowds and the few 'direct action' folks. Keep the riot squads and heavier gear in reserve and only deploy them against the actual troublemakers and not peaceful protesters. Police at the front lines may get stress, but at least they have organized discipline. Protesters do not. They stress and freak, and stupid shit may happen. Beyond that, 'friendly' faces and surveillance. Also request whoever the main organizers to for police liaisons and information on who will be marshals, planned routes, and etc while avoiding to be bossy and trying to tell them what to do. Providing the security borders, what streets are blocked, etc would be enough for the organizers to work around, so need to force them into "zones".   Also enough to warn the public to avoid people getting stuck in the 'crossfire'. Sound cannons, tear gas, and rubber bullets should only be absolute last resort, and limited only among the few that are committing violence and trying to start a riot. Oh, and do not get goaded. While all the protest groups like to go on about agent provacateurs, there are the few real life trolls that will try to provoke the police to make the first actual violent moves to somehow justify their own. 

So yes...I need to go to bed before I go on more. I wish I still had that email I wrote to Chief of Ottawa Police (before the present one) who actually asked me about my thoughts. I provided list of stuff both the police and protest groups in Ottawa could do better in regards to protests.


----------



## Michael OLeary

All that verbiage and you offer no solution to how the peaceful protesters will keep the "direct action folks" out of their areas in order to avoid giving the police a need to be deployed.

Do you not see that the security forces react to existing threats? 

The police being there do not make the protesters start breaking windows and throwing firebombs.  The rioters choose to commit those crimes.

What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?


Edit to add:

Why even call it "direct action", that implies that you accept it as being part of the overall protest movement. Why don't the legitimate protesters work harder to separate themselves from these CRIMINALS?  

And can you explain this: *"direct action" against who?*  The taxpayers that have to see government money spent to provide the security forces that are only needed because of escalating "direct action" CRIMINAL activity, and also to repair the damage these CRIMINALS do?


----------



## Kat Stevens

And round and round we go...again.


----------



## Flavour Country

it wouldn't be so expensive if they weren't catering expensive food and putting all the security staff up in nice hotels...


all this to protect corporate interests....


Maybe they're pulling a haliburton and supplying $500 nuts and bolts to erect the security perimeter fence


----------



## The Bread Guy

Flavour Country:  The basic question, no matter how much you and others want to play the anti-capitalist card, has been repeated by more than one person - here's the latest iteration:


			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?


As long as we have groups saying very clearly they encourage "diversity in tactics" (translation:  we can't/won't stop the small number of arsonists/provocateurs/black bloc-ists), one prepares for the worst.


----------



## Teeps74

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> it wouldn't be so expensive if they weren't catering expensive food and putting all the security staff up in nice hotels...
> 
> 
> all this to protect corporate interests....
> 
> 
> Maybe they're pulling a haliburton and supplying $500 nuts and bolts to erect the security perimeter fence



To be blunt. The tactics you refuse to acknowledge, let alone stop, are an absolute barrier to us understanding anything to do with your view point. I may have been willing to listen prior to Seattle, but now, all I see at these things is a bunch of infantile thugs, throwing a massive temper tantrum, and doing serious damage to small businessmen and women (note, McDonald's restaurants for instance are independently owned and operated. Burn one down, and all you do is harm the working class, the corporate offices feel ZERO effect)


----------



## The Bread Guy

...preparation continues for the "Human Summit Project" - highlights mine - with a news conference next Monday, and a bit more in the _Toronto Star_:


> On Sunday, June 27, The Human Summit – A mass meditation will be held in Toronto, Canada and in cities around the globe to coincide with the Toronto G20 Summit.
> 
> The Human Summit was born out of the desire to have a civil engagement response to the G-20 Summit in Toronto that is both spiritually and politically conscious.
> 
> *As world leaders meet in Toronto to discuss the future of the global economy, there will be many voices clamoring for attention. Some of these voices will originate in chaos and fear and result in protests and civil disobedience. This meditation will offer a peaceful, non-violent alternative for conscious civil engagement to the residents and visitors to Toronto during the G-20 Summit.
> 
> The organizers of The Human Summit believe that the loudest and clearest voice will come from the silence of a large group of people sitting in meditation here in Toronto, while joined in consciousness by tens of thousands of others connected in silence simultaneously around the world.*



Less may be more - interesting concept (although not great radio, admittedly).

Good on them showing concern/dissent =/= violent/criminal


----------



## Danjanou

Well here's where some of the Billion is going

http://www.contemporarysecurity.ca/

Hmmm so the guys checking the ID of those allowed access to the area will have been hired a whole week before hand. Yeah and who checked them out? :

I think i'll start digging a bunker in my East York backyard.


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> All that verbiage and you offer no solution to how the peaceful protesters will keep the "direct action folks" out of their areas in order to avoid giving the police a need to be deployed.



I did. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Okay I admit, it was my realistic response base on the present realities of such large protests and what will most likely be the case at Toronto.

Ideally, yes it would be awesome to have a group of volunteers with guts to confront the violent and vandalizing folks to stop or at least keep them away from peaceful protests while having full consensus support of the main groups organizing the protest. These volunteers would have to be willing to risk physical and violent confrontations, and possibly risk arrests themselves as the police are not keen of vigilantism, even during protests. This includes risking putting off a lot of peaceful protesters too. 



> Do you not see that the security forces react to existing threats?



Yes, and a lot of times with overkill, as in more than needed.



> The police being there do not make the protesters start breaking windows and throwing firebombs.  The rioters choose to commit those crimes.
> 
> What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?



Hard to tell, considering the "peaceful mass" is comprised of many individuals whom majority prefer peaceful protests and pacifism, not an well organized and trained discipline army or police force.

They organizers (or some of) are at least seeking volunteers to be impartial monitors during the protests,  observing and reporting both police and protester activities, and be available to testify if needed.  This suggest they are trying within realistic means. 




> Why even call it "direct action", that implies that you accept it as being part of the overall protest movement. Why don't the legitimate protesters work harder to separate themselves from these CRIMINALS?
> 
> And can you explain this: *"direct action" against who?*  The taxpayers that have to see government money spent to provide the security forces that are only needed because of escalating "direct action" CRIMINAL activity, and also to repair the damage these CRIMINALS do?



The "direct action" meant to be sarcastic snicker, as in what they call what many of the few do. At the same time, not all methods of direct action involves violence or vandalism. It can include blockades of streets, roads, entrances and such. Disruptive sit downs. Infiltrating into a political party or conference in attempt to scream some message. Trespassing and put some big banner off a building. Squatting inside an corporate or government office. While they may risk arrests, they do not involve violence or vandalism. 

So since not just violent folks who balk at any plans that does not involve 'direct action' or discourages it, can't exactly consider all of them violent or vandalism. Hence, do not automatically it is just that whenever read something online.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Flavour Country said:
			
		

> I hope police, security and military personnel don't become terrorists during the protests.........



I hope if a protestor picks up a molitov to throw at police they get shot in the head.

Then all your buddies at rabble can really have something to bitch about instead of LOLing anytime a Canadian soldier gets killed overseas.


----------



## dapaterson

Remember that in times of tight budgets security agencies view this sort of event as a way to get additional funding to acquire new/upgraded equipment that has a useful life long after the event is over - it is the nature of a bureaucratic organization to do so.

Remember also that outside of the military, the policing services and other support organizations (including the DFAIT organizers) are all working 70-80 hour weeks - with a significant chunk of that at overtime rates at a 50-100% premium.   That contributes significantly to the costs.

Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.


All sorts of incentives built into the system; few of them encourage conservative expenditures.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.



OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System) represents the municipal Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics in Ontario:
http://www.omers.com/Assets/supplemental+plans/Supplemental+Plan+handbook.pdf

"This is the annual average of your highest 48 consecutive months – your best four years – of contributory earnings in the Primary Plan. *It does not include any overtime pay *or most lump-sum payments."
Ref: Part 5: “Best Four” Earnings Benefit. Page: 24. Paragraph: one.

I have been a full-time member of OMERS  since 1972, and an OMERS pensioner since 2009. I have worked a lot of mandated and voluntary overtime. There was lots of it. Every year, all year round.
Overtime has nothing to do with your pension.

"Toronto hotel workers authorize a strike: Labour disruption could affect G20 summit: 
Toronto's largest hotel workers union has voted to authorize a strike if contract negotiations break down, just weeks ahead of the tensely anticipated G20 summit.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-hotel-workers-authorize-a-strike/article1590875/

"Wanted: Jailhouse doctors for G20 summit: Protesters detained during the G20 summit will be treated in custody for minor injuries, according to an email seeking doctors to work at a temporary jail.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/818518--wanted-jailhouse-doctors-for-g20-summit

"Queen’s Park to be boarded up during G20":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/818484

"Mounties shun ‘sound cannons’ in urban settings ahead of G20:  As the Toronto Police showcase new summit gear, the RCMP reveals that it does not support the use of acoustic guns to control crowds": 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/mounties-shun-sound-cannons-in-urban-settings-ahead-of-g20/article1590210/

"The Integrated Security Unit unveiled its collection of security measures to the media":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/show-of-force/article1591077/

"Toronto EMS spokeswoman Kim McKinnon said the summit won’t disrupt regular service.":
'There’ll be absolutely seamless service in the city of Toronto'  




			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Apologies to those under OMERS (and the PSSA, as I have just discovered) - there are some plans that do permit overtime to be pensionable.



No problem!  
Pensionable OT, sounds like a sweet deal!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

dapaterson said:
			
		

> and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.



No need to derail from the thread any further but than too say that this is 100% wrong.
Signed,
Public Sector Worker
Bruce


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> So since not just violent folks who balk at any plans that does not involve 'direct action' or discourages it, can't exactly consider all of them violent or vandalism. Hence, do not automatically it is just that whenever read something online.



This effectively summarizes your argument: inarticulate nonsense.

You have no answers, you just don't like the preparations made by legal authority which are driven by the known risks created by violent protesters.  If you want to see the police response eliminated, then the protest movements MUST deal with their violent members and keep them away. Until you do that, you have no cause to complain when the legal authorities are required to deal with CRIMINALS in YOUR midst.


----------



## George Wallace

mellian said:
			
		

> The amount of police officers they had when Bush came to Ottawa or even G8 or Montebello was much less than for G20 in 2001 with the formers resulting in being more all around peaceful, and the size of the protest was about the same with the unfortunate usual amount of the "direct actions" folks. Yes, Toronto protests will be much bigger and quite possibly more intense....but 1 billion?



The cost to protect one Head of State, can not be used to protect 20 plus Heads of State.  The costs go up 20 (plus).  The US entourage of bureaucrats along with those of the other 20 plus nations creates just that many more costs and numbers of people to provide services, facilities, transportation, protection, etc.  If anyone can not  see this, then they are an idiot.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> to be impartial monitors during the protests,



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/blog-local-view/g20-human-rights-monitors-needed/article1588198/?cmpid=rss1



> They will be assigned to follow protests and take notes on what occurs, with an eye to watching how demonstrators are treated by police.



You and the CCLA may want to look up the meaning of "impartial"   :


----------



## Fishbone Jones

You guys never learn :

 :deadhorse: ;D


----------



## dapaterson

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember also that outside of the military, the policing services and other support organizations (including the DFAIT organizers) are all working 70-80 hour weeks - with a significant chunk of that at overtime rates at a 50-100% premium.   That contributes significantly to the costs.
> 
> Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.



Apologies to those under OMERS (and the PSSA, as I have just discovered) - there are some plans that do permit overtime to be pensionable.  My mistake.


----------



## kratz

Ack,

People are human. Humans can be wrong.  ;D


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> This effectively summarizes your argument: inarticulate nonsense.



 :



> You have no answers, you just don't like the preparations made by legal authority which are driven by the known risks created by violent protesters.  If you want to see the police response eliminated, then the protest movements MUST deal with their violent members and keep them away. Until you do that, you have no cause to complain when the legal authorities are required to deal with CRIMINALS in YOUR midst.



What I would like is protests to be able to happen where no one gets hurt, and this includes police/security. If police preparations involves risking harming peaceful protests and risk causing a riot or/and panic, no matter what the preparations are by protest organizers, then they fail at their job. The police are the police, not the protest organizers. Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason. 

1 Billion budget suggest excessive force, meaning a lot of people risk getting hurt. Treat protesters as criminals and you will get them. So to fulfill what I would like, of course I will be against either, and be vocal against it. It is what I done from the beginning, from when I even got first involved to now just talking about it and debate here on milnet. This includes going against the idiots that pull stupid stunts like firebombing banks, throwing rocks, and molotovs, or for simply showing for the sake of protesting instead of the issues and message is intended to be.

As for beating a dead horse...it is a message board. Same topic will get discussed again and again every so often wherever. Part of how society evolves, by talking about things again and again. Each time is discussed, it is different even if many of the same points are covered along with new ones, and this includes at least one person saying it is going in circles, ad nauseum, and beating a dead horse. Be thankful there is an easy solution to this, can simply chose to not read and not post.


----------



## Michael OLeary

And you have yet to explain how you would remove the need for security forces.

It's time you identified how you, and all so-called "peaceful" protesters, plan to be part of the solution.  You certainly haven't established that violence and CRIMINAL acts would not occur if the police weren't there.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I think I understand.

If we had less police at a protest or no police at all then there wouldn't be any violence because the trouble makers wouldn't have anyone to be troublesome to.

Everyone would get along, sit together and discuss ideas and ways to change and no one would get hurt or be oppressed.

We could ask for volunteers of unarmed and untrained good samaritians to act as a "parent force" which could identify any (unlikely) trouble makers and give them a stern talking to.

With the movey we save we can forgive debt to countries that owe Canada money.

It'll work.  Mellian, interested in being the leader of the group of unarmed untrained civilians that will waggle their finger at the masked, armed professional rioters?


----------



## George Wallace

mellian said:
			
		

> ........... Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.



I don't know how you were brought up, but I was brought up to be responsible for my actions.  Yes, there are laws against vigilantism, but that does not preclude you of your responsibilities to stop it.  As an "organizer" of an event, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.  You are responsible to ensure that your event, your actions, the actions of all your participants, etc are within the Law.  You are responsible for your actions.  You are responsible to maintain the law (within the powers that the Law permit you).  You seem to have missed out on this important fact: YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES as a member of this society.  

You have to "police" yourself.  You have to "police" your event, be it a party in your backyard, a birthday party, or an organized protest.  YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.


----------



## Teeps74

mellian said:
			
		

> :
> 
> 
> What I would like is protests to be able to happen where no one gets hurt, and this includes police/security. If police preparations involves risking harming peaceful protests and risk causing a riot or/and panic, no matter what the preparations are by protest organizers, then they fail at their job. The police are the police, not the protest organizers. Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.



'Fraid you missed the boat bub. The problem from day one has always been that protest organizers do not want to police themselves.  Meaing, when something bad is about to happen, they do nothing to stop it. Nor will they call the police.  Organizers and marshals have failed utterly in every regard to date... 



> 1 Billion budget suggest excessive force, meaning a lot of people risk getting hurt. Treat protesters as criminals and you will get them.



To date, at protests on other events, the protestors were criminals. You treat a criminal like a criminal. Don't like being treated like a criminal, then do not act like one.  That means, when you see someone cocking an arm back with a rock/brick/molotov cocktail, stop them, single them out, and get the police involved.   Let us not forget the wanton vandalism that WILL occur, committed by those in YOUR midst.




> So to fulfill what I would like, of course I will be against either, and be vocal against it. It is what I done from the beginning, from when I even got first involved to now just talking about it and debate here on milnet. This includes going against the idiots that pull stupid stunts like firebombing banks, throwing rocks, and molotovs, or for simply showing for the sake of protesting instead of the issues and message is intended to be.
> 
> As for beating a dead horse...it is a message board. Same topic will get discussed again and again every so often wherever. Part of how society evolves, by talking about things again and again. Each time is discussed, it is different even if many of the same points are covered along with new ones, and this includes at least one person saying it is going in circles, ad nauseum, and beating a dead horse. Be thankful there is an easy solution to this, can simply chose to not read and not post.



Aye, there is an easy solution. You can chose to learn, and realize that you have responsibilities which you have been failing utterly to recognize and fulfil.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

mellian said:
			
		

> 1 Billion budget suggest excessive force,



DING< DING< DING........I couldn't let this go by without giving it the stupid thought of the day award. :clown:


I'd like too add more but I'm with RG on this one..... :brickwall:


----------



## Jarnhamar

How exactly does more money indicate excessive force?

If anything it would indicate the opposite wouldn't it? More money spent on barricades, cameras, facial recognition programs to identify known shit disturbers, crowd control options.
More expensive and less aggressive things than a bunch of cops and soldiers with sticks and guns.


----------



## vonGarvin

Well, one could take a page from history and pay the Hell's Angels some beer for security.


----------



## mellian

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> DING< DING< DING........I couldn't let this go by without giving it the stupid thought of the day award. :clown:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, if you single it out of context.  :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like too add more but I'm with RG on this one..... :brickwall:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That is okay, I feel like :brickwall: as well even discussing the subject with folks who like to paintbrush large group of people because of the idiot few, and then say it is enough grounds to treat the large group as criminals themselves simply because they have not or failed to remove themselves...or call the police who are all right there ready to arrest and possibly hit you with a baton just for being too close. How the law is applied during a large protest is different, and everyone is stressed out and high on adrenaline.
> 
> Again, my proposal stands to form a group to attend a large protest like Toronto as civilians, even attend some of the planning meetings, and do exactly what you guys suggest to see for yourselves from the other side.  I have only been trying to draw a picture of some of things that goes on and realities of protest organizing as I have been there. Chastise me all you like about being irresponsible, stupid, for "just not getting it", make it seem I am anti-police and an anarchist, but I am sticking to what I know and been trying to share it.
> 
> In the end, whatever I say not going to matter anyway, and it is not like I will be at Toronto for G8/G20 (especially as I will be Philadelphia then).
Click to expand...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Bang your head all you want, you have yet to offer credible solutions for dealing with the CRIMINAL element that hides inside your "peaceful demonstrations.  We are, therefore, left with the solution developed by legal authority, and you thinking it's too expensive is a meaningless objection without real alternatives.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mellian said:
			
		

> Sure, if you single it out of context.  :
> 
> 
> That is okay, I feel like :brickwall: as well even discussing the subject with folks who like to paintbrush large group of people because of the idiot few, and then say it is enough grounds to treat the large group as criminals themselves simply because they have not or failed to remove themselves...or call the police who are all right there ready to arrest and possibly hit you with a baton just for being too close. How the law is applied during a large protest is different, and everyone is stressed out and high on adrenaline.
> 
> Again, my proposal stands to form a group to attend a large protest like Toronto as civilians, even attend some of the planning meetings, and do exactly what you guys suggest to see for yourselves from the other side.  I have only been trying to draw a picture of some of things that goes on and realities of protest organizing as I have been there. Chastise me all you like about being irresponsible, stupid, for "just not getting it", make it seem I am anti-police and an anarchist, but I am sticking to what I know and been trying to share it.
> 
> In the end, whatever I say not going to matter anyway, and it is not like I will be at Toronto for G8/G20 (especially as I will be Philadelphia then).



You mean like people who label all security personnel  as violent, jack-booted thugs?


----------



## zipperhead_cop

mellian said:
			
		

> These volunteers would have to be willing to risk physical and violent confrontations, and possibly risk arrests themselves as the police are not keen of vigilantism, even during protests. This includes risking putting off a lot of peaceful protesters too.


  

Why can't they just do that idiotic "SHAMESHAMESHAMESHAME" blathering that they so love to bleat?  Just shout and point at the anarchist/criminal who is being an nozzle?  How hard can that be?  Are you all so soft, inept and weak that if one of them turned on one of your group people wouldn't step up to help?  You said your groups are much bigger and the criminals are relatively small groups.  Strength in numbers.  Where is your solidarity?  I call bull$hit that you have any interest in stopping the violence.  You enjoy it and hope it happens.  You just want someone else to do it for you.  It's all about choices and you and your ilk have made the choice to be on the side of violence by choosing to facilitate it by word and deed (or lack thereof).  




			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Yes, and a lot of times with overkill, as in more than needed.



Really?  Guess what?  This is a job for us.  A JOB.  We have families to go back to at the end of the day.  Your a$$hat friends CHOSE to show up and be idiots.  We got ASSIGNED to be there.  See the difference?  And another big heads up?  There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that states that we have to get hurt in the commission of our duties.  Quite the contrary actually.  And the law also says we don't have to fight fair.  So spare us the whining about "overkill".  Riot arrests are swift, brutal and decisive because experience tells us that if you try to reason with people in those settings you just create a magnet affect and instantly have hundreds of people interfearing.   



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> It can include blockades of streets, roads, entrances and such. Disruptive sit downs. Infiltrating into a political party or conference in attempt to scream some message. Trespassing and put some big banner off a building. Squatting inside an corporate or government office. While they may risk arrests, they do not involve violence or vandalism.



Okay seriously, what is the point? The only people that are impressed by that stuff are the people doing it.  You really thing that Pres. Barack Obama is going to go "hey, somebody just hung a 100 foot banner off the Scotia tower that says "NO BLOOD FOR OIL".  Wow, that is so moving!"  Grab a clue!!  They could care less with your childish antics.  They are 100% ineffective and accomplish NOTHING!  As for the interference crap, all that does is piss off the normal people who are trying to get on with their lives.  You know, the ones you can't relate to with those things called "jobs".  



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> If police preparations involves risking harming peaceful protests and risk causing a riot or/and panic, no matter what the preparations are by protest organizers, then they fail at their job.



What are you even talking about?!?  Every single protest that has ever occurred started off with a bunch of police standing around looking bored.  Police REACT to threats and disorderly conduct.  REACT.  In order to REACT someone else has to be ACTING.  Knowing what they may end up against, a public order unit will take steps to protect themselves.  So if you are suggesting that the mere sight of helmets, shields and batons is CAUSING people to misbehave, your perceptions are badly skewed.  



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.



It is not vigilantism for a citizen to take ownership of their community and exercise their rights under Sec 494 of the Criminal Code, citizens right to arrest.  Any citizen can arrest a person whom they observe committing and indictable offence.  Commonly here, that would be assault or mischief.  Vigilantism speaks to carrying out sentences.  Poor example.  




			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Treat protesters as criminals and you will get them.



Act like criminals and get treated like one.  

Doubtless you will ignore my salient points as in previous posts.   :


----------



## 1feral1

All those who particpate in these anti-globalisation rallies, are either professional paid shyte distrubers (whose main purpose is to go from city to city promoting such), wannabee anarchists, or ULWNBs (Ultra Left Wing Nut Bars) with attitudes, and in my opinion, the majority are all unemployed, bored, and misguided at best.

Get the fire hoses out, and have the CS/DS/DN, rubber bullets and '00' on stand by, I've had a gutfull of them all.

OWDU

Oops, edited for spelling


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Let's make this real simple for everyone.

We'll add your comment to the thread, if you send it to a Mod, and it hasn't been previously discussed in it's present form or another permutation.

Once the fun and games start, we'll reopen it, so both sides can give their slanted, biased elicitations of the facts......as they see them.

We will then entertain, a civil discussion on what everyone thought went wrong.

Finally, when everyone has stated ad naseum, that it was the other sides fault, we will lock the whole thing up...........again, forever.

Probably around Oct\Nov 2010.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Infanteer

As requested from a member.

Via Rail to bypass Union Station during G20
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/04/via-g20-union-station451.html


----------



## Loachman

Posted at the request of PMedMoe:

http://www.ottawasun.com/comment/columnists/greg_weston/2010/06/04/14266366.html



> Fake Muskoka costs real bucks
> Plan to take the great outdoors indoors for global media more than a little loony
> 
> By GREG WESTON, QMI Agency
> 
> Last Updated: June 6, 2010 2:00am
> 
> Canadian and international journalists covering the G8 summit in Muskoka later this month will be able to file their reports from the leisurely comfort of a cottage dock, their feet dangling in the water, surrounded by the stunning sights and sounds of the fabled Ontario resort country three hours north of Toronto.
> 
> The only catch is they won’t be anywhere near Muskoka.
> 
> Instead, the federal government is shelling out millions of dollars to re-create cottage country — complete with a small lake — inside a Toronto convention facility that will warehouse most of the media during the three-day windfest.
> 
> Your tax dollars at work.
> 
> It is all another stunning achievement by organizers of the great Canadian summits of squander, three days of hot air and tear gas that will cost taxpayers an estimated $1.2 billion and counting.
> 
> Recession? What recession?
> 
> The head of the Muskoka tourism agency, Mike Lawley, cannot contain his enthusiasm for the great outdoors being built indoors with federal tax dollars.
> 
> Lawley describes the planned decor as a sweeping dock surrounded by a “very large water feature” complete with canoes, all facing a big-screen TV the size of a stadium jumbotron creating the sights and sounds of cottage country.
> 
> Journalists will be able to lounge in comfy Muskoka chairs on what is likely the only cottage dock in existence with bar service and high-speed Internet connections.
> 
> The loopy lake project is only part of a bigger prop called “The Canadian Corridor” being constructed inside the temporary media centre.
> 
> Foreign Affairs describes it all as “experiential and will provide the media with compelling stories, images and ideas that could form the basis of published and broadcast works.”
> 
> Think: Drunk reporter falling in fake lake.
> 
> Foreign Affairs estimates the cost for the project will be $1.9 million, including draining the lake and dismantling the whole thing after three days.
> 
> At least, that’s the bill so far.
> 
> Government documents show that just last month, the absolutely outside cost was supposed to be $1.5 million — an increase of almost 25% in 30 days.
> 
> At that rate, the public tab for plugging arguably the richest resort region in the nation will blow past $3 million like a blackfly in a hurricane.
> 
> That’s just the beginning.
> 
> We have it on good authority that the usually hum-drum swag bags for media will include brand new “special summit edition” BlackBerrys preloaded with promotional stuff about Muskoka.
> 
> Since most international reporters won’t get within 200 km of Muskoka while they are here, Canadian taxpayers will also be forking out a small fortune in post-summit advertising campaigns aimed at potential tourists in the U.K., Germany, China, and U.S. border states.
> 
> Ka-ching. Ka-ching.
> 
> The worst of it is none of this had to happen.
> 
> After spending $23 million on a media centre in Huntsville where the G8 leaders will actually be meeting, the feds decided six months ago to keep most of the journalists three hours away in Toronto.
> 
> Needless to say, the decision did not sit well with the local tourism folks.
> 
> It also made life politically awkward for Muskoka-area MP Tony Clement.
> 
> Known affectionately as Uncle Tony for his political largesse with other people’s money, Clement has spent the past two years wallpapering his riding in $50 million of “summit heritage funds” for projects ostensibly to wow the visiting world media in the hopes of promoting future tourism.
> 
> But no media. No wow.
> 
> Lucky for everyone but taxpayers, Clement is also the federal industry minister responsible for a large federal slush fund called Investment Canada.
> 
> And apparently there is nothing Uncle Tony and Investment Canada can’t solve for the good voters of his riding.
> 
> If the media couldn’t go to Muskoka, why not bring cottage country to the media stuck in Toronto, eh?
> 
> Investment Canada to the rescue, indoor lake and all.
> 
> The good news is that in the likely event the actual summit meetings produce zero of value, tourism officials say bored reporters will be able to sit on the dock and watch FIFA soccer on the big screen.
> 
> If nothing else, the world will at least come to understand that not all the loons in this country are birds.
> 
> greg.weston@sunmedia.ca


----------



## Michael OLeary

The rallying call is out there.  I shot this today, it was pasted to the side of a London Free Press newspaper box.


----------



## George Wallace

And people wonder why the budget for this is so large and the Security efforts so grand:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*G8 Summit invites 10 extra nations*

LINK

Last Updated: Monday, June 14, 2010 | 8:21 PM ET  
CBC News

The G8 Summit in southern Ontario's cottage country will include 10 other countries, and that has invited concerns and criticisms from politicians and activists.

The G8 consists of eight of the world's leading economic powers, including Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom. This year's annual summit will take place June 25-27 in Huntsville, Ont., but officials said it will also include leaders from Haiti, Jamaica, Colombia and seven African countries.

"And what is all this costing?," asked Liberal MP Siobhan Coady, during the House of Common's question period. "There's no limit to what Canadians will have to pay for the prime minister's ego."

NDP MP Paul Dewar said aid-recipients Haiti, Jamaica and Colombia recently signed a free-trade agreement with Canada and their leaders likely won't disagree with Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

"Is this really a meeting of the G8 or is this, in fact, just a meeting of the campus of conservative club, Mr. Speaker?" he asked during question period.

Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said the last-minute G8 guests will add a lot to the discussion around the table.

"The prime minister will be discussing issues that are related to development," he said. "He will be discussing issues related to security, global security, Mr. Speaker."

But NGOs say the government shouldn't limit the discussion to only those topics.

"For Canada to invite those people and not talk about climate change, not put it on the agenda and make sure there is very strong commitment, would be highly hypocritical, and, frankly, if I was from an African country, I'd be outraged," said Steven Guilbeault, co-founder of the environmental group, Équiterre, in Montreal.

Zoë Caron, a climate policy and advocacy specialist at WWF-Canada, said developed countries agreed last December in Copenhagen to help developing nations cope with climate change by putting money into a fund, but so far there isn't much in it.

"I think that having those faces at the table and those voices at the table would very much support those dollars moving forward," she said.

Cannon said climate change is on the agenda, but environmental groups worry it will get only a passing mention, instead of a full discussion about what needs to be done to reach an international agreement by the end of the year.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/06/14/g8-summit.html#ixzz0qvFB8Qis 

Read more:  http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/06/14/g8-summit.html#ixzz0qvEzYA6y





LINK


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*Oxfam's giant heads of world leaders arrive for G8*

LINK

The Canadian Press

Date: Monday Jun. 14, 2010 1:56 PM ET

TORONTO — Barack Obama's head has arrived in Canada ahead of the G8 and G20 summits -- minus part of his ear. 

The giant papier mache likeness of the U.S. president's noggin and the heads of the seven other G8 leaders were unpacked at Oxfam's Toronto offices Monday after being shipped from Germany, where they appeared at UN climate change talks. 

Oxfam uses the props for publicity stunts during international meetings, such as the upcoming G8 in Huntsville, Ont., from June 25-26 and the G20 in Toronto from June 26-27. 

The heads made the journey largely intact, except for a chip missing from the top of Obama's ear. 

The ear should be easy enough to fix, but Oxfam's biggest concern now is getting a new head made for Japan's leader in time for a stunt on June 25 in Huntsville for the G8 summit. 

"Normally they take about a month (to make), so this is a rush job," said Frida Eklund, Oxfam's popular mobilization lead. 

"We didn't really plan for him to step down just before the summits." 

Toronto artist Ted Heeley has offered to make a giant head of Naoto Kan, who replaced Yukio Hatoyama as Japan's prime minister less than two weeks ago. 

The group had been thinking they wouldn't have the heads make the trek from Toronto to Huntsville, but are now planning an appearance or two at the G8. 

The heads, lined up on a boardroom table after the bubble-wrap was taken off, are very close likenesses to their real-life counterparts. The artist -- Dot Young in the United Kingdom makes most of them -- will select a few different photos of the leaders and Oxfam staff pick ones they feel are most representative of the leaders. 

They try to pick a good range of expressions, Eklund said. 

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's head has a detached stare and icy blue eyes, while Obama's has a jovial smile. 

Volunteers -- mostly Oxfam policy experts and executive directors -- will don the heads and pose in mock photo-ops. 

"What they try to do is put them in a scene that's basically a satirical comment on what's happening or what should be happening," said Oxfam Canada spokeswoman Karen Palmer. 

At the G8 last year in L'Aquila, the G8 leaders were "sitting down to a rather decadent dinner on the eve of a discussion about food insecurity," Palmer said. 

So staffers there had the big heads sit down to giant bowls of pasta made out of metres and metres electrical cord. 

They also opened the summit with a "while Rome burns" scene, complete with fire blowers, a comment on how out-of-touch the G8 can seem, Palmer said. 

Strapped on to their heads with a hard hat mounted inside, the props are a bit wobbly, weighing seven kilograms each. There are no eye holes, so except for the Angela Merkel head -- whose mouth is open -- the volunteers can see through little holes designed to look like stubble. 

It means limited vision and no peripheral vision, so the volunteers will be under close watch by a "stunt director." 

They wouldn't want to trip and break a giant nose.


LINK


----------



## Michael OLeary

*Black Bloc expected to test G20 security*

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/14/black-bloc.html

When more than 5,000 police officers take to the streets of Toronto during the G20 summit meetings June 26-27, their biggest worry may be militants whose tactics have earned them the name Black Bloc.

The self-described anarchists promote violent confrontation with the authorities, which is why they may be a major concern at the G20, according to CBC News security correspondent Bill Gillespie.

Black Bloc protesters wear ski masks or balaclavas to conceal their identity, rarely do interviews, and on their websites rail against capitalism and banks.

They allege that exploitation of Third World countries by the rich G20 nations causes poverty and death.

So, according to Black Bloc logic, throwing rocks at the police is a justifiable, even moral, response to the violent consequences of G20 policies.

Canadian security analyst John Thompson doesn't buy it.

"They've been described as activists. Forget it. The cause is irrelevant. What they really are is *confrontation junkies*," Thompson said.

Typically, a tightly knit phalanx of Black Bloc members will insert themselves into a large, peaceful protest march. When the march passes a bank, one of them might run out of the group and throw a brick through a window.

The brick thrower then quickly runs back to his masked, black-clad comrades, leaving the police unsure whom to arrest.

The No. 1 target of the Black Bloc in Toronto is expected to be the tall mesh security fence surrounding the centre where the G20 leaders will meet, said the CBC's Gillespie.

Protesters using Black Bloc tactics were active during the Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Three were arrested after windows were broken at a Hudson's Bay Company store and cars were vandalized on West Georgia Street.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/14/black-bloc.html#ixzz0r1CpD6q1


----------



## Infanteer

I'm re-opening this because I'm sick of posting stuff for other people when I don't give a damn about this topic.  Any stupid posts will simply be deleted.


----------



## GAP

The G8/G20 is being used by the natives now....

Natives to win HST concessions from Ottawa
Article Link

Adam Radwanski and Karen Howlett

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail Published on Wednesday, Jun. 16, 2010 3:00AM EDT Last updated on Wednesday, Jun. 16, 2010 10:28AM EDT

The federal government is set to give aboriginals a major concession on Ontario’s new harmonized sales tax, amid threats that protesters will “shut down the country” when it plays host to world leaders at the coming G8 and G20 summits.

Until this month, Ottawa had ignored natives’ pleas for a provincewide point-of-sale exemption from the HST after it takes effect on July 1. But with native leaders set to plan protests that could include outright blockades, federal and provincial officials engaged in a frantic round of negotiations.

Sources say that an 11th-hour deal to give aboriginals the exemption is now imminent, and that it was the spectre of major disruptions that forced Stephen Harper’s government to come to the table.

The talks began on June 4, and picked up steam after a meeting a week later at which aboriginal representatives put government officials on notice that they would back up their unhappiness with the end of the exemption by taking action.

Alvin Fiddler, senior policy adviser at the Independent First Nations Alliance – a tribal council representing five communities – said the main item at a meeting of native leaders next Tuesday in Fort Frances, Ont., would be how to maximize exposure to natives’ complaints. “It’s direct action that usually gets the most attention,” he said.

Stan Beardy, Grand Chief of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, said in an interview that representatives are very close to reaching an accord. But “if the thing isn’t resolved, we have to tell our people to do whatever we need to do in order to protect our rights,” he said. “We have to shut down the country if we have to.”
More on link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Expect wireless blackouts....:


> Wireless companies say they’ve been told their signals may be jammed during the G8 and G20 summits, but aren’t being given any more information about how thousands of cellphone users could be affected. Wireless industry sources told the Canadian Press that the jamming technology is expected only to be used to create a moving bubble of electronic silence around motorcades ....



....and closed banks:


> Canadian banks will close 36 branches inside or near the security perimeter during the G20 summit in Toronto, which begins June 26.  The Royal Bank, CIBC, TD Bank, Scotiabank and Bank of Montreal say the branches could be the targets of protesters, so they will close the outlets.  They are asking people who might need to get to safety deposit boxes for items such as passports to visit their branches before June 24 so vacation plans aren't ruined ....



Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Labour Congress call for injunction against use of LRADs:


> .... The Canadian Labour Congress and the Ontario Federation of Labour are expecting thousands of people to come out to their “People First!” rally on June 26th, and have been working for months with local organizations in Toronto, including local police, to provide people with a safe and peaceful venue to express their displeasure with G20 leaders and their own government. The organizers say dozens of buses have been chartered by local labour unions and student associations to bring people from across Ontario to the protests. They have permits for a large stage at Queen’s Park and have planned their march to steer clear security hot spots. Nonetheless, they are concerned about the possible use of sonic cannons, and that peaceful protesters may become targets for unnecessary crowd control ....



Note to geocachers: 


> .... Geocachers planning to hunt for hidden boxes in Toronto during the G20 weekend are being warned to take their sleuthing outside of the city.  “It’s not recommended to go down to a high-security area and start snooping around looking for a hidden package,” Ontario Geocaching Association vice-president Gregory Pleau said ....




Point:  How violence doesn't help


> .... The diversity of tactics concept allows and condones tactics such as those of the Black Bloc, which has historically included the wearing of hoods and masks to conceal identities, physical fights with the police, breaking windows, smashing cars and media vehicles, and firebombing.
> 
> An underlying assumption is that peaceful protesters will be “politicized” by provoking police into responding to violence with violence. This arrogant position not only places nonviolent demonstrators at risk, it also leads to alienation and a weakening of the social change movement.
> 
> In this society, a group that chooses violence chooses to marginalize itself. Widely rejected tactics such as fire bombings or window-smashing not only lead to mass arrests, but also result in a loss of credibility and public support ....



Counterpoint:  some more protest art attached, shared via Twitter and twitpic.com, with the message "G8 G20 crash the meeting. tools of the trade. submedia.tv"


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the DoS web page:


> .... The G-20 Summit, which heads of state and government will attend, will take place June 26-27, 2010, at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in downtown Toronto.  Previous G-20 summits have drawn large numbers of protesters and activists, and a number of groups have announced plans to demonstrate throughout downtown Toronto.  Protesters are expected to gather in Toronto in the days leading up to the Summit and access to parts of the downtown area will be restricted due to security requirements.  Even demonstrations that are meant to be peaceful can become violent and unpredictable.  You should avoid them if at all possible.  Be alert and aware of your surroundings and pay attention to what the local news media has to say ....


----------



## Michael OLeary

http://g20.torontomobilize.org/schedule



> *Schedule of Events*
> 
> If you are organizing an action during this time, please contact the Toronto Community Mobilization Network immediately to ensure that all actions are safe and supported.
> 
> Please read our Solidarity and Respect statement, the Accessibility Statement and Statement/Guidelines on Sexual Assault
> 
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network is supporting mobilizations for:
> ~ self-determination for indigenous peoples
> ~ climate and environmental justice
> ~ income equity and community control over resources
> ~ migrant justice and an end to war and occupation
> ~ gender justice, queer and disAbility rights.
> 
> *Organizers percieved level of police interference
> * = low; ** = medium; *** = high*
> 
> * 18-20 June 2010, All Day, Forum, Ryerson: 2010 People’s Summit
> 
> *21-24 June 2010: THEMED DAYS OF RESISTANCE (BUILD UP)*
> 
> J21, 1pm, Harper's Attacks on Reproductive Rights at home and abroad, 25 Cecil Street, OCAC ocac88@gmail.com
> 
> ** J21, 2pm, Allan Gardens, March: "All Out In Defense of the Rights of All"
> 
> ** J22, Various Times/Locations, creative civic transformations and street theatre for Gender Justice
> 
> J22, Creative Queer Resistance to the G20, 4:30pm Yonge and Queen, Tuesday June 22nd
> 
> * J23, 11am, Alexandra Park (Dundas and Bathurst St.) March: "Toxic Tour of Toronto"
> 
> * J23, 7pm, Ryerson Student Campus Centre (SCC115), 55 Gould St: People's Assembly on Climate Justice: Moving Forward from Cochabamba (Poster) (Facebook)
> 
> ** J24, 11am, Queen's Park, March: "Canada Can't Hide Genocide: Indigenous Day of Action" (Poster Image)
> 
> J24, 5pm, Toronto Underground Cinema 186 Spadina Ave, "Six Miles Deep" Documentary
> 
> * J24, 8pm, 25 Cecil Street Steelworkers Hall, Forum: "Confront the Invasion!" (Poster image)
> 
> *25-27 June 2010: DAYS OF ACTION *
> 
> ** J25, 2:30pm, Allan Gardens (Carlton Street between Jarvis and Sherbourne Street) Free the Streets! March. Block Party. Tent City: "Justice for Our Communities"
> 
> * J25, 6:00pm, Forum, Massey Hall: "Shout Out For Global Justice"
> 
> * J26, 1:00pm, March, Queen's Park: "People's First. We Deserve Better"
> 
> *** J26, 1:00pm, March, Queen's Park: "Get Off the Fence"
> 
> *** J26, Time/Location TBA, Radical Street Party: "Saturday Night Fever."
> 
> *** J27, Time/Location TBA, Autonomous Direct Actions: "Getting Down to Business"
> 
> * J27, 1pm, Location TBA, Bike Block action
> 
> ** J27, 2pm, St James Park (on King St. between Jarvis and Church), March: "Funeral March"
> 
> J27, 3:33 PM, Anywhere, Make Believe Tea Party, (Flyer) (Handout)
> 
> *** J27, 5pm, Bruce Mackey Park (Dundas and Wardell), March:  Fire.Works.For.Prisons
> in
> 
> * g8 toronto community mobilize mobilization network schedule protest dates times location g20 resistance resist


----------



## Michael OLeary

Hmmm, what was all that rhetoric we were getting earlier in this thread about how the "peaceful mass" of protesters had no control over the few "direct action" rabble?

Well, it seems they have no qualms about publishing strict guidance concerning those who have a record of committng, or may commit, sexual assault.

http://g20.torontomobilize.org/sexualassaultpolicy



> *Sexual Assault*
> 
> TorontoCommunity Mobilization Network –
> Statement/Guidelines on sexual assault and consent
> 
> Information on Prevention and Support Structures for Survivors for the G8/G20 in Toronto
> 
> *please disseminate widely*
> 
> The Toronto Community Mobilization Network recognizes that organizing and activist spaces are not always spaces liberated from sexual and gender based violence and assault. We believe it is important that as a community we create spaces that acknowledge this reality and fight the structures and persons that create and sustain rape culture within our society, but that we also establish prevention and support mechanisms for individuals who experience sexual assault/gender based violence while attending the summit in Toronto.
> 
> We will do this by:
> 
> * *Actively discouraging persons with a known history of perpetrating assault from attending the summit/being present in organizing spaces*
> * Having trained medics/volunteers experienced with sexual assault present throughout the convergence to support survivors
> * Having guidelines for consensual sexual activity to be abided by, especially in G8 & G20 Housing/Organizing spaces





> *Perpetrators of Sexual Assault, Abuse and Harassment are not welcome in G8 & G20 Resistance Spaces!!!*
> 
> Perpetrators of Sexual Assault, Abuse and Harassment are not welcome in G8 & G20 Resistance Spaces. This includes people who have perpetrated in the past, people currently engaged in or running away from accountability processes, and people who refuse to respect the TCMN consent guidelines.
> 
> *People who violate consent guidelines will be directed to leave G8 & G20 organization spaces, and housing arrangements.*
> 
> It is no way acceptable that the presence of a perpetrator hinder the particpation of a survivor during the G8/G20 mobilization. We encourage survivors, and allies of survivors to identify ways in which we can assist them if they feel that their participation in the G20 is being obstructed by the presence of a perpetrator.
> 
> The G8/G20 guidelines are in place to discourage the replication of the paradigms of domination that exist within our society. If you are here to protest the paradigm of domination that the G8/G20 represents,  practically engaging in deconstructing and de-practicing learned patriarchal, misogynist behaviours of abuse includes following these guidelines.
> 
> To identify someone perpetrating abuse, to get support for you or a friend,   please contact us at: sarah.p.reaburn@gmail.com




Hello hypocrisy.


----------



## vonGarvin

You see, it's all about aboringinal/women/queer/disAbled etc rights.  Cops are white men.  Only white men own banks, therefore, it's ok to beat on them...


:


----------



## GAP

> Perpetrators of Sexual Assault, Abuse and Harassment are not welcome in G8 & G20 Resistance Spaces!!!



Well, there's that problem solved.....they told them not to come, and they won't .....they're not welcome......well done!!!   :


----------



## Michael OLeary

But at least they published a policy, a plan and a set of contacts to report violators.

_Sexual assault - Not welcome here!_

_Planning to throw Molotovs at cops, not a problem worth mentioning._   :


Of course, the sexual assault issue is to protect demonstrators from other demonstrators. Go figure.


----------



## mariomike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Cops are white men.



That is changing in Toronto:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4021&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


----------



## The Bread Guy

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> _Sexual assault - Not welcome here!_
> 
> _Planning to throw Molotovs at cops, not a problem worth mentioning. who are we to discourage "diversity of tactics"?_   :


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> That is changing in Toronto:



You're missing his point .... _[to a radical demonstrator]_ cops are _[the tools of the imperialist oppressor]_ "white men" _[regardless of the colour of their skin]_ .... _[therefore]_ it's ok to beat them ...


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You're missing his point .... _[to a radical demonstrator]_ cops are _[the tools of the imperialist oppressor]_ "white men" _[regardless of the colour of their skin]_ .... _[therefore]_ it's ok to beat them ...



I was thinking of the diversity hiring I have seen in the city with my own eyes. 
I failed to consider it from a demonstrator's point of view: As in, "Stick it to _The Man_." Sorry about the misunderstanding.
P.S. Thanks for unlocking this topic.

As if SARS didn't put a bad enough fright into tourists:
National Post:
"Toronto mayor slams U.S. travel alert issued for city: Mayor David Miller harshly criticized the U.S. State Department yesterday for issuing a travel alert advising U.S. travellers to avoid the city during the G20 summit, even as *an aboriginal rights group threatened to blockade 400-series highways when foreign leaders and summit delegates arrive next week*.":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/17/toronto-mayor-slams-u-s-travel-alert-issued-for-city-2/

CTV: "First Nations group still plans blockades before G20: OTTAWA — A First Nations rights group is still planning highway blockades around Toronto despite an apparent warning from Canada's spy agency and heavy security around the G20 meeting of world leaders.":
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20100617/g20-highway-blockades-100617/

Sun: "Busloads of cops arriving for G20: Busloads of out-of-town police officers were being escorted by motorcycle cops Friday to downtown Toronto for the G20 Summit that they’ll be patrolling for the next nine days.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/18/14441181.html

Macleans:
"The G20 summit: A billion-dollar waste of time:
Why are we hosting a useless, money-sucking international photo op?":
"In the interests of sanity, we should make Toronto’s G20 summit the last of its kind.":
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/06/17/why-host-a-billion-dollar-photo-op-the-real-work-is-done-elsewhere/

"Hospitals get ready for G20 surge: If there’s a protest and there’s tear gas used, there’s a whole bunch of plans that all hospitals have in place to lock down, to make sure tear gas doesn’t get into the hospital,”:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/18/hospitals-get-ready-for-g20-surge/

Grief for the tree huggers: "The trees could be ripped out of the ground by demonstrators 'and then you’ve got a huge bar,' said Constable Wendy Drummond, a spokeswoman for the Integrated Security Unit.":
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/summit-survivor/2010/06/16/g20s-latest-toronto-victims-trees/

"The Toronto Police union is calling for Sid Ryan to resign after the Ontario Federation of Labour president suggested police may plant agent provocateurs among the G20 protesters to incite violence.":
http://thestar.blogs.com/g20/2010/06/police-union-calls-for-sid-ryan-to-resign-over-inflammatory-agent-provocateurs-comment.html

"I’ve seen one transportation plan that involves walking people from Union Station, down Bay Street, along Lake Shore Boulevard and up Rees Street to the SkyDome… This was suggested by the folks up in Ottawa as being the easiest way to handle a crowd of 50,000 people. We had to explain to them that they would have to build a sidewalk on those streets, that there actually isn’t a sidewalk on Lake Shore Boulevard.":
Trinity-Spadina Councillor Adam Vaughan

List your home on Craigslist for G20: "G20 SUMMIT CONDOMINIUM. BEST LOCATION, BEST PRICE. (4-minute walk from G20 Convention Centre)":
http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/search/apa?query=g20&bedrooms=

"We’ll keep the rioters. Just take our politicians":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/18/matt-gurney-well-keep-the-rioters-just-take-our-politicians/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thank God the natives won't have to pay taxes and won't result to terrorist tactics and scare the OPP, RCMP and CF.  I hope anytime they want something they drop threats and the imperialist evil empire of settlers cave into their demands.



On a serious note, I hope the "black bloc" get's absolutely ROCKED by the police.
I'm talking epic amounts of pepper spray, silly amounts of tear gas and cops who grew up playing dungeons and dragons and consider their asp a mace of disruption, +3

Violent protesters don't care one iota about the various causes or issues.  They come out to clash with the police.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from CTV.ca:


> A counter-summit in Toronto meant to challenge the G8 and G20 was dubbed "protest school" by organizers on Friday, as they shied away from denouncing violent action by demonstrators.
> 
> "People protest in various ways. Again, we're simply organizing a conference," said Dylan Penner, a committee member at the summit and media officer for the Council of Canadians, as he fielded a barrage of questions about the summit's stance on violence.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Folinsbee was also quick to point out that many of the workshops encouraged peaceful protest, such as "communication skills for activists," which teaches protesters "how to de-escalate an angry movement."
> 
> But there are also workshops planned for debating and discussing a "diversity of tactics" during the G20 and G8 summits.
> 
> "I would encourage you to come talk about it. It would be a really interesting debate," Folinsbee said when challenged by a reporter.
> 
> *"It is really cloudy, and it is really complicated to work in solidarity with each other when these issues are still on the table," *she added....


Zatright?  Why is the renunciation of violence "cloudy" while "Perpetrators of Sexual Assault, Abuse and Harassment are not welcome in G8 & G20 Resistance Spaces!!!"  isn't quite so "cloudy"?

Notice this message coming out over and over again lately....


> Penner said *protesters have been demonized, and fear-mongering has made the public nervous about violence during the G8 and G20*.
> 
> The committee for the People's Summit also suggested violence in past summits has not come from protesters, but from agent provocateurs.
> 
> *"The state is, in fact, doing criminal activity if they don't rule out agents provocateurs,"* said Christine Jones, co-chair of the Canadian Peace Alliance as she spoke at the news conference Friday.


Message translation:  if any violence happens, it MUST be the cops' fault.


----------



## mariomike

National Post graphic of "Fortress Toronto" ( you may have to click to enlarge ): 
http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/g20-fortress-new.jpg

G20 and emergency health services: 
"For what it’s worth, a Toronto EMS manager told me yesterday that he thinks any protests at the G20 will be 'either a complete disaster or nothing' from an emergency health services perspective.
He said, in any case, both Toronto Police and Toronto EMS are supposedly (unofficially) minimizing to senior hospital administrators the potential for a so-called Mass Casualty Event, or even the need for hospital decontamination of protesters assaulted with tear gas or pepper spray.
This is the Don’t Worry, Be Happy approach to emergency management, which has always worked out so well in the past.
The biggest concern, he went on, is that patients who would usually go to the Big Downtown Hospitals won’t attempt to battle traffic (and restrictions) and will filter out of downtown and overwhelm the peripheral hospitals.":
https://torontoemerg.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/the-g20-and-emergency-health-services/


----------



## Kat Stevens

These thugs use violence to get what they want in a (mostly) lawful and (somewhat) ordered society.  Can anyone guess what life would be like in their anarchist utopia?   I'm getting ready for 'em, come on down.


----------



## mellian

GAP said:
			
		

> Well, there's that problem solved.....they told them not to come, and they won't .....they're not welcome......well done!!!   :



Yep, and still have plans and resources in place because they know it is not that simple.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:
			
		

> National Post graphic of "Fortress Toronto" ( you may have to click to enlarge ):
> http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/g20-fortress-new.jpg



Lots of stuff within the perimeter will be closed during the summit.






Too bad CBC isn't one of them :


----------



## mariomike

recceguy said:
			
		

> Lots of stuff within the perimeter will be closed during the summit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad CBC isn't one of them :



CBC looks well protected!  ;D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58609798@N00/4701746388/


----------



## Edward Campbell

One rather hopes that China will volunteer to host the G20 in the near future; they will know how to _welcome_ the scum idiot children of privilege protesters ... oh, wait, most will not even make it into the country, anyone who tries anything will return home in an air ambulance.


----------



## Old Sweat

The following opinion piece is reproduced from the Fair Comments section of the National Post online edition under the fair comments provision of the Copyright Act:


*G20 Protesters want to have their cake and eat it too*
Jonathan Kay  June 19, 2010 – 9:00 am 

Most Canadians won’t remember the name Carlo Giuliani. But for a day or two in 2001, the death of the 23-year-old anarchist protester at the G8 Summit in Genoa was imagined to be a sort of Freedom-Flotilla moment for the anti-globalization movement.

Mr. Giuliani, a convicted petty criminal outfitted in balaclava and combat boots, died in the act of hurling a fire extinguisher at a police Land Rover — “direct action,” as protesters of the day euphemistically called it. In a famous photo, capturing one of the last instant’s of Mr. Giuliani’s life, you can see an officer peering out the vehicle’s back window, pistol in hand. The Land Rover appears somewhat isolated, besieged among the chaotic street bottles that unfolded in Genoa throughout the Summit.

Seen from the perspective of 2010, Mr. Giuliani seems like a man with a death-wish. But this was early 2001. Much like the NGO activists on the flotilla intercepted by Israeli forces last month, anti-globalization protesters of the era thought they could have it both ways. As part of their direct-action tactics, they attacked police with potentially deadly force, and rampaged through cities destroying “symbols of capitalism” (Starbucks was always a popular target). When the police fought back, they cried brutality and wept for their martyrs.

The golden age of anti-globalization protest, such as it was, began at the 1999 WTO Ministerial Conference in Seattle. It ended, two years later, on Sept. 11, 2001. The 9/11 attacks rendered random political violence taboo. They also created an emotional cult of admiration for the uniformed men and women who hold the thin blue line. The fire-extinguisher-throwers of the world suddenly were on the wrong side of history. And the few who still bothered to show up at international conferences of the WTO or G8 variety found themselves toe-to-toe with larger, better-armed, and less indulgent uniformed cadres.

In truth, the anti-globalization protest movement always was composed of two distinct groups: (1) Legitimate left-wing activists with placards, flyers and websites; and (2) full-time criminals and delinquents who used anti-globalization as a pretext for street violence in the same way that English hooligans go at each other during soccer matches. In this second category, the most militant types affected a dimly understood attachment to anarchism, and played dress-up in combat attire, usually under the banner of the “Black Block.”

There was an unhealthy dynamic between these two groups, as I observed in Quebec City, while covering the April 2001, Summit of the Americas. Many of the legitimate protesters I interviewed insisted that the Black Bloc was a violent fringe with its own militant agenda. And there was truth to that: As the weekend conference unfolded, I saw that it was the same few dozen black-clad protesters who were throwing bricks at police and generally acting like criminals. But it was also true that the rest of the protesters often acted as the Black Bloc’s cheering section.

The two groups had a cynical, symbiotic relationship. The violent anarchists relied on the legitimate protesters for the conceit that they were acting in the service of some political agenda more respectable than mere hooliganism. And the legitimate protesters enjoyed the romantic frisson that attends street violence, without actually picking up a brick or lead pipe. Some of them even ended up getting tear-gassed — a great war-story for everyone back on campus.

After 9/11, most of the Black Bloc folks hung up their gas masks: The risk of getting treated as real terrorists by a ramped up security state outweighed the thrills to be had. But it must also be said that conference organizers became more intelligent at the game of divide-and-conquer, setting up free-speech zones where only those protesters interested in actual speech would show up to make their point.

Last month, it was announced that the official “Designated Speech Area” for the Toronto G20 will be at the northern end of Queen’s Park — this coming several days after neighbourhood complaints prompted the summit’s Integrated Security Unit to cancel plans to place the protest zone in Trinity Bellwoods Park. Said a spokesperson: “Our main priority has always been an area close enough to the downtown area that it respects the whole idea of a Designated Speech Area and, at the same time, it be a far enough distance from the security perimeter so it doesn’t compromise any of our security plans.”

There’s something Orwellian in that term, “Designated Speech Area.”

But if the protesters of 2010 are looking for someone to blame, they might want to cast their gaze back to the anarchists who trashed Seattle, Genoa and Quebec City. A decade ago, these people thought they were leading a historic revolution. But the only place their violence led to was a giant playpen, miles away from the conference rooms where history actually unfolds.


----------



## Teeps74

Nice find Old Sweat.  Sadly, the silver spoon children of today will not be bothered with the realities found within.


----------



## mariomike

National Post ( Reply #298 ):
"Last month, it was announced that the official “Designated Speech Area” for the Toronto G20 will be at the northern end of Queen’s Park — this coming several days after neighbourhood complaints prompted the summit’s Integrated Security Unit to cancel plans to place the protest zone in Trinity Bellwoods Park."

Trinity-Bellwoods was obviously picked by people unfamiliar with the neighbourhood. They rained a s%$#-storm down on Queen's Park back in 1977. What a summer that was! I am not surprised they did not roll over for this. I know times have changed, but not that much.
Queen's Park is where people with an axe to grind go. There was a big protest there in the mid 1990's when Mike Harris was in. About ten years ago there was a bad one. But, they never had to shut the place down. 
For G20, Q.P. will shut down for the first time in memory, send everyone home, no parking, and board the windows. Yet, the "Integrated Security Unit" felt an inner-city neighbourhood park where you take your kids to play would be a safe place for their “Designated Speech Area”?

I am surprised they didn't select Christie Pits. It is literally a park in a pit. Wouldn't be the first time it was the scene of a major riot, either. Close, but not too close, to the action downtown. 
After seeing their parks turned into garbage dumps during the strike last summer, I suspect the neighbourhoods are in no mood for hosting a Designated Speech Area.
My guess is the excitement will spill over to Yonge and Dundas. It always does. Unless the police can keep them corralled contained.

I like the way the Globe and Mail put it, “Police say live video of the protests will be made available to the world leaders—if they choose to watch.” 

"Tourists fleeing Fortress Toronto: Tourists can’t wait to get out of Fortress Toronto and away from the kilometres of G20 security fencing that have turned a bustling downtown into an “armed camp”.:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/19/14449796.html

National Post: "When fear comes to town":
Q: Is the cancellation of all school buses indicative of a level of security and contingency planning that has gone out of control?

A: This has been terribly managed by Ottawa. Their silence on these issues and their hiding behind local authorities is deceitful. I think it’s shameful. I think the government has a lot to answer for now and it’s clear why they walked away from some of their funding commitments. They know they’ve created a tornado.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/19/when-fear-comes-to-town/#more-11143

"If access to a hospital is blocked, ambulances will be rerouted to the next available emergency room.":
Janine Hopkins, senior director of corporate affairs for Toronto Central Local Health Integration Unit.

Maclean's: "Meetings that began as informal get-togethers between like-minded friends have become unwieldy, expensive monstrosities." 

Lots of comments about the trees being removed:
http://thestar.blogs.com/g20/2010/06/young-saplings-a-security-threat-police-say.html

Some are questioning why Downsview Park ( or the CNE, as recommended by The City of Toronto ) was not selected instead. Downsview Park hosted two Papal visits, "The Rolling Stones SARS Benefit Concert.: Estimated to have between 450,000 and 500,000 people attending the concert, it is the largest outdoor ticketed event in Canadian history, and one of the largest in North American history.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molson_Canadian_Rocks_for_Toronto
as well as World Youth Day in 2002.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Downsview#Downsview_Park

Toronto Sun:
"The Gestapo, or whoever’s running this show, unveiled the summit security curtain on Friday and Queens Quay is the southern front. Now we know how Sicily felt in World War II.": 
"Long gone is any hope the G20 would join the G8 in Huntsville...":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mike_strobel/2010/05/29/14185776.html


----------



## vonGarvin

Here is the young gentleman, about to hurl a fire extinguisher at the police:







Here is the result:






What a waste of a young man's life.  But you know what?  It's his own fault.  Shame, really.

Now, where is the "counter-summit" being held?  I want to go protest it with those infernal Vuvuzelas!


----------



## Journeyman

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Here is the young gentleman, about to hurl a fire extinguisher at the police....


And note the audience (video cameraman right in there, and the anti-police graffiti in English).

On the original topic, I'm currently obligated to spend the night in TO (I'm _merely_ the male in the relationship). Security measures be dammed, I defy the protesters to navigate through all the streets closed by construction


----------



## 1feral1

Aside from the coagualting blood I also noticed the roll of tape on his arm. Whats the tape for?

Anyone know?

OWDU


----------



## Haggis

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Aside from the coagualting blood I also noticed the roll of tape on his arm. Whats the tape for?
> 
> Anyone know?



If it was an improvised bandage then, clearly, he wasn't able to apply it in a timely fashion.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*G20 police arsenal includes plastic bullets*
20/06/2010 9:21:54 AM

CBC News 

LINK 

*Police tactical teams have been practising with plastic bullets and tear gas at a Canadian military base near Toronto in case protesters at the G8 and G20 summits turn violent.*

Officers confirm they will have dozens of anti-riot weapons that were originally developed at the request of the British military for crowd control in Northern Ireland.

The weapon, the ARWEN 37, is promoted as "less lethal." The gun is designed to fire tear-gas canisters and large, 37-millimetre plastic bullets - also referred to as rubber bullets - from distances of up to 100 metres. ARWEN is short for Anti Riot Weapon Enfield.

"The ARWEN is used in situations where the police are dealing with individuals who are combative, assaultive and are proposing serious danger to themselves or others," Ontario Provincial Police Const. Mel Tourigny told CBC News during a training exercise at CFB Borden in Ontario.

Tourigny refused to divulge where or how the weapon might be deployed during the summits of world leaders this week.

But she confirmed the weapon is one "use of force option" that could be deployed, in addition to stun guns, batons and tear gas, to help officers keep a distance as they try to disarm violent protestors.

"It's realistic to accept that there very possibly could be an injury to a person being struck by this projectile, but it's a less serious injury because it's deemed a non-lethal [weapon]," Tourigny said.

Police Ordnance, the Canadian company that manufactures the ARWEN, bought the rights and has become the sole maker of the weapon, supplying police and military around the world.

"It's less lethal by the fact that this is not going to penetrate the body," said James Cassells, a retired Toronto Police Service tactical squad trainer who now works for Police Ordnance.

"It was originally developed in the UK for crowd control involving the disturbances they were having in Ireland," Cassells said. "They needed something that was going to be less lethal."

But the British military never really deployed the ARWEN for its intended purpose because they feared the weapon looked too menacing, Cassells said.

Cynthia Bir, a professor at Wayne State University in Michigan who specializes in biomedical engineering, said the biggest risk for those using the weapon but not properly trained on it is "shot placement."

"Obviously, the head is a very vulnerable region," said Bir, who has conducted independent tests on the ARWEN and its impact. "In no way shape or form should we be aiming at the head."

Bir said she and her team found the ARWEN's round of bullets to have a fairly low risk of injury.

"Less than 10 per cent risk of injury with deployment of this round direct to the chest," she said. "So you're talking about maybe five to seven per cent risk of a rib fracture."

But she noted there have been serious injuries and even deaths around the world in instances where police have shot people in the head.

In 1994, Ryan Berntt of Vancouver was shot in the head by a police rubber bullet fired from an ARWEN during a Stanley Cup hockey riot. He suffered serious head injuries and later sued police, claiming brain damage. He lost his claim.

LINK


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*Social networking sites put new spin on G20 summit*
20/06/2010 7:50:09 AM

Ian Munroe 

LINK 

*As preparations for the upcoming G20 summit kick into high gear on Toronto's streets, people are taking to social networking sites to pass along information about the event or to complain about the traffic headaches it's causing. *

Toronto police have launched a social media hub where Internet users can learn about the security measures being implemented for the international meeting, which will take place in the city's financial district on June 26-27. 

The hub directs users to five different Twitter feeds, three Facebook pages and a long list of YouTube videos. 

The "payoff" of using such channels "will be an educated and informed public, who will understand the security measures and the affects on those living in and around the summit security zones," Toronto police spokesperson Meaghan Gray said in a statement posted online. 

Those intending to hold demonstrations are also ramping up their social-media presence. The Toronto Community Mobilization Network, which is helping to coordinate protest groups, is posting videos online along with frequent Twitter messages. 

In one recent Tweet the group asked Toronto police and the G20 Integrated Security Unit to "stop sending cops to marches, demonstrations, meetings and our community spaces. Especially undercover ones." 

Likewise, non-governmental organizations such as Oxfam Canada are posting details about demonstrations and other events they're planning around the summit. 

As Sidneyeve Matrix, a media professor at Queens University puts it, "organizers are using social media for its real-time capabilities -- they're pushing out information." 

But everyday Torontonians are also weighing in, usually to complain about how the summit is changing the city (in some cases, by posting photos of G20-inspired graffiti). 

"Wow I had no idea downtown Toronto had the Berlin Wall running down the centre of it," Tweeted Scott Duffy, referring to the barrier being erected around the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, where the summit will be held. "Thanks G20!" 

Matrix, who has been studying how social media are being used around both the G20 and the G8 summits, said there has been plenty of downbeat sentiment swirling online about the events. 

"There's a lot of pushback, a lot of resistance, a lot of negative opinion right now," she told CTV.ca. 

"I don't think it's changing the event but I definitely think it's shaping public perception," she added. "They say that people don't really believe advertising, we believe our friends -- I think there's a power there." 

LINK


----------



## Teeps74

The socialists just do not get it... Do they (ya, I know, no question mark...).

Instead of sending away everyone who looks like a cop, invite the cops in, and debate with them, include them in the planning process, and wow... Imagine that, security might get brought down a couple of levels.

But alas, the children want to throw their temper tantrum, and believe they can do so without consequence, while encouraging "diversity tactics"...

Even if they do have valid points (I am sure there might be one in the throng of idiocy), those points will be lost because of the inclusion of violence in their little charade.  When all is said and done, they will blame the police for not being able to get their message out, when the reality is THEY are the ones to blame for not getting their message out.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From 680news.com:


> Police are scheduled to be out in full force during the G20/G8 summits, but that might not be the case for some security guards.
> 
> *Tear gas, rocks and eggs filled with urine are only some of the safety risks guards take if they go into work next weekend.*
> 
> Sunil Ram, CEO Executive Security Services International - a private firm working both summits,  has spoken with security guards who have voiced uncertainties. He said some have scheduled their vacation time during the summit, while others might call in sick.
> 
> "They just don't want nothin' to do with it. It's just going to be too volatile of a situation, very unpredictable," he said.  "They don't want any part of it because of the unknown factors. So, they just want to stay home." ....


----------



## armyvern

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From 680news.com:



Wierd no?

According to this link, Executive Security Services International



> LICENSED SECURITY * INVESTIGATION * BODYGUARD AGENCY
> 
> * Personal VIP Bodyguards * Executive Protection
> * Media Security * International Protective Services
> * High Risk Personal Protection, Travel Security & Consulting Services
> 
> Executive Security Services International will be providing personal security/protective services to our clients during the 2010 G8 Summit taking place in Huntsville, Ontario - Canada. Security planning for events like this take a while, especially with high profile, high risk clients. If you are planning in attending this event and require personal security/protection services, we recommend that you contact our office as soon as possible to make arrangements.
> 
> Our staff at Executive Security Services International consists of *former government, law enforcement, and individuals from elite counter-terrorism units who currently work globally providing high-risk security/protective services*. Our clients include: government, multinational corporations, T.V., film and celebrity personalities.
> 
> Our services have been requested for:
> 
> * Olympic Security * Board of Directors Meetings * Executive Retreats * Annual General Meetings * Corporate Conferences * High Risk Terminations * Workplace Violence/Stalking * Pageant Security * Product Launches * Award Ceremonies * Galas * VIP Visits * Dignitary Protection * Travel Security (Overseas) * Witness Protection * Humanitarian Groups * Court Hearings



If they are in the domain of providing high-risk sceurity clients with protection services - high-risk clients & the use of the word "body-guards infers "assasinations ... thus real live bullets; it therefore seems a little odd to me that they'd be worried about more mundane things like urin & rocks and would call in sick.

Is it just me?? Or does this just seem off --- given their raison d'être?


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*A guide to G20 protesters*
Last Updated: June 19, 2010 12:00am


By THANE BURNETT, QMI Agency 

LINK 


Did someone order a lot of opinions?

Here is just a sample of the concerns and organizations — most perfectly respectful and a few that are potentially far from peaceful — that will raise their voices during the G20 and G8 summits.

• *Black Bloc* — Arguably the most notorious collection — a tactic rather than group — to threaten the summits. These self-described anarchists look for violence and destruction. They were seen during the Vancouver Winter Olympics, and before that during 1999 World Trade Organization protests in Seattle, using the tactic of blending in with non-violent groups — then lashing out.

• *Anti-Capitalist Crusaders* — A constant presence at all G8 and G20 meetings.

• Protest against Meles Zenawi  — Some groups and concerns will seem foreign to many Canadians, including a movement to denounce the attendance of Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi at the G20. Those protesting include the family of Bashir Makhtal, a Canadian jailed for life in Ethiopia.

• *Ontario Coalition Against Poverty* — A hard-line anti-poverty group, OCAP protests are familiar in most Ontario cities. Coalition founder, John Clarke, says he has little hope: “That Obama and the G20 world leaders will be listening to us.” Instead, he says the aim is to build social mobilization.

• *Environmental concerns* — Groups like 350.org, a global movement, will be holding a number of events. “We want to make sure the 350 network in Canada knows how to plug in,” says 350.org spokesman May Boeve.

• *Animal Rights Groups* — Members of a liberation movement, which this month claimed responsibility for torching a Colorado sheepskin factory is likely to attend.

• *Amnesty International*

• Pro-Gaza supporters.

• Marxists — Toronto organizer Alex Grant says: “The overwhelming point of the rallies and events is to reach the general population excluded from the summits. However, if the protest is large enough it is not ruled out that we might have some effect inside the wire.”

• Bikes Not Bombs Toronto.

• Canadian Indigenous Tar Sands Campaign  — Native rights and Canada’s investment in the Alberta tar sands are set to attract protest.

• Peace Campaigners  — The Canadian Peace Alliance will be attending summit events, though the presence of the US anti-war crusade, Code Pink — a group Pittsburgh officials tried to ban from marching during last year’s G20 — is still being determined, say officials.

• *The Zeitgeist Movement *  — Which believes modern economics is a fraud, global debt will crush us and the future should revolve around the Venus Project, a futuristic society where computers control the world.





LINK


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*Toronto's approaching racket*
Last Updated: June 19, 2010 12:00am



By THANE BURNETT, QMI Agency 

LINK 

TORONTO - Can you hear that approaching racket? The clamour outside the gates?

For weeks now, Canadians - especially those living around Toronto - have braced for the G20 on June 26-27 and the G8 summit a day earlier.

Tension builds. The cost of security rises to at least $930 million. Almost daily, there are glimpses of possible calamity.

We've learned to fret the "Black Bloc" - anarchists who promote violence and destruction.

We're told even small trees may be used as weapons, so they've been removed.

We're reminded of past riots - including last September's melee during the G20 in Pittsburgh's Little Italy and a confrontation with a police officer during the London summit earlier in the year that took the life of an innocent U.K. newspaper seller. 

So we prepare for the hordes.

But a look at the unofficial roster finds the vast majority of the thousands who will descend on downtown Toronto - and north to Huntsville for the G8 - are far from threatening.

They include established relief organizations, peace protesters and religious charities hoping to be heard.

One group is promoting a computerized 'Earth-wide autonomic sensor system' that will replace governments and tend to the world's needs.

People will gather for prayer groups and others at a planned puppet-making event.

They are environmental watchdogs, labour supporters and social justice organizers. Then there will be the hangers-on, the spectators, the action junkies and the curious.

It's an eclectic, diverse and important collection, says Syed Hussan, an organizer with the Toronto Community Mobilization Network.

"This may be the largest collect of not just people (protesting in Toronto), but also of concerns," she explains.

Her network is helping to organize at least 18 major G20 events, each involving at least 10 different groups. There will also be a planned tent city, teach-ins and lectures.

"Remember as well, that not all demonstrations are protests," cautions Peter Hajnal, a research fellow at the Monk School of Global Affairs.

"Many mainstream NGOs may choose to participate in some demonstrations. Their concerns are as varied as the groups themselves." 

But there is no directory of the outspoken. Many activists are loath to talk to the police or even media.

So valid concerns, fringe rants, democratic voices and the hopes and worries of a lot of people will all press against the security wire together. And it will take just a few thugs to stop their chances of being heard.

Which is why Toronto can't help but sweat the approaching racket.

thane.burnett@sunmedia.ca


LINK


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*Secret service plotting Obama's trip*
Last Updated: June 19, 2010 5:17pm



By TOM GODFREY, Toronto Sun 

LINK 

Members of the U.S. Secret Service have been in and out of Toronto checking every detail of this week’s trip by President Barack Obama to attend the G8 and G20 Summits.

Obama is expected to arrive at Pearson airport on Friday and will travel to Huntsville for the G8 by motorcade or by Marine One, the presidential chopper, police sources said.

Officers said there will be little opportunity for Canadian fans to see him since he’ll be staying in secure locations with no public access. Obama’s air and land travel has to be approved by the secret service whose armed agents are responsible for presidential protection. The service never comments on presidential security details.

Obama, and other leaders, will likely fly to Huntsville for the G8 and back to Toronto because of security concerns and the distance involved. 

Marine One would be accompanied by a Canadian Forces chopper and CF-18 fighters as air cover.

“Three hours by road to Huntsville is a long time,” the source said. “There is too much open ground to cover.”

Marine One usually flies in a formation with identical choppers and is equipped with flares to counter heat-seeking missiles and chaff to foil radar-guided missiles. 

Meanwhile, military helicopters have been practising drills near the downtown Metro Convention Centre, where the meeting will take place and a helipad has been created in a parkette near the Rogers Centre.

Toronto Police spokesman Sgt. Tim Burrows said he couldn’t comment on operational security issues.

Officials said a fleet of CF-18s are on alert in Toronto and Huntsville for any violation of airspace during the summits.

Some of the military aircraft, along with other police vehicles, are being kept at Pearson.





LINK


----------



## mariomike

Re: 680 News ( Reply  #308 )
"They just don't want nothin' to do with it. It's just going to be too volatile of a situation, very unpredictable," he said.  "They don't want any part of it because of the unknown factors. So, they just want to stay home." 

The average Security Guard is unlikely to have her/his transportation, food and lodgings taken care of by the government for two weeks. They won't even be able to buy a hot-dog down there. They are telling people to carry their own food and water:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/824383--pack-a-snack-for-the-summit-go-advises


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Is it just me?? Or does this just seem off --- given their raison d'être?


I agree with you.


----------



## Teeps74

mariomike said:
			
		

> Re: 680 News ( Reply  #308 )
> "They just don't want nothin' to do with it. It's just going to be too volatile of a situation, very unpredictable," he said.  "They don't want any part of it because of the unknown factors. So, they just want to stay home."
> 
> The average Security Guard is unlikely to have her/his transportation, food and lodgings taken care of by the government for two weeks. They won't even be able to buy a hot-dog down there. They are telling people to carry their own food and water:
> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/824383--pack-a-snack-for-the-summit-go-advises



Ya, they will be lucky to get $20 an hr. So, for 20 bucks, one gets peppered with urine, bricks, stones and verbal abuse mixed in with the usual pushing shoving. They will not be getting lodging, food or anything like that. Meh, if it was me, I would call in sick too. $20 an hr is no where near enough when totally lacking benefits to justify the risks taken.


----------



## armyvern

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Ya, they will be lucky to get $20 an hr. So, for 20 bucks, one gets peppered with urine, bricks, stones and verbal abuse mixed in with the usual pushing shoving. They will not be getting lodging, food or anything like that. Meh, if it was me, I would call in sick too. $20 an hr is no where near enough when totally lacking benefits to justify the risks taken.



You really think that 'professionals' employed with the spoken-of firm earn a mere 20 bucks an hour given their ... expertize??

http://www.executivesecurity.ca/?page=executiveprotection

I mean, this firm offers the following training course to "professionals" after all - you'd think their staff would be paid in excess of 20 an hour ...



> This training program is aimed at: Corporate Security Departments, Law Enforcement, Military and Private Security Personnel involved in close protection and high-risk security operations. The broad spectrum of material will include


----------



## mariomike

I don't know about this particular security company. Perhaps they have a contract with ISU.
But, the _average_ Security Guard ( or Parking Control Officer or Paramedic ) is a convenient target for street-people to vent their insane hate on. Most are smart cunning enough to know that assaulting a Police Officer is asking for more trouble than they bargained for.


----------



## Teeps74

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You really think that 'professionals' employed with the spoken-of firm earn a mere 20 bucks an hour given their ... expertize??
> 
> http://www.executivesecurity.ca/?page=executiveprotection
> 
> I mean, this firm offers the following training course to "professionals" after all - you'd think their staff would be paid in excess of 20 an hour ...



Vern, the professional bodyguards are not the ones on the front lines at G8/G20. Those guys likely make far more then I do, and come from backgrounds as advertised (i.e. SF, police ERT etc etc).

The fillers brought in for the event itself however are on the much lower end of the pay scale.  Security firms like this offer a broad spectrum of services (as advertised), including uniformed guards who wonder about and report to police criminal activities. Typically, today these guards are licensed, but paid a pittance.

Now, granted, there are many private security contractors providing "front line staff" for this event.  I may have mixed this one up with one of the others.  At the end of the day tho, anyone forward, and having the abuse hurled at them should be making more then $20/hr, and they should have some sort of serious benefits package to deal with the injuries that will occur.


----------



## LineJumper

I think this looks like a job for Sgt Pepper.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4693365-sgt-pepper-taught-the-band-to-spray

 >


----------



## mellian

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Aside from the coagualting blood I also noticed the roll of tape on his arm. Whats the tape for?
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> OWDU



Posters? Banners? Use in vandalism and make shift weapons?


----------



## mariomike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Here is the young gentleman, about to hurl a fire extinguisher at the police:



"Death of Carlo Giuliani":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Carlo_Giuliani


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Alright folks, same drill as the other thread. Drop it. No one is changing and no one will concede. Stalemate. Let it go and move on. This discussion has ended.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## vonGarvin

Looking at the list of organisations that wish to show up, I think it's a crying shame that groups such as the Black Bloc are making headlines, whilst other groups are being drowned in the din of sensationalism.  I do believe that some (most) of these groups have legitimate beefs (the computer-networked, "Cyberdyne Systems" group notwithstanding).  Instead, the media will focus on the rock-throwers (no relation to The Rock Painters  >).  This in turn will give them some odd sense of justification for hijacking the summit and/or its more legitimate protests.

I wish I could protest something there.  I mean, heck, even if what I wished to protest has bugger all to do with the G20/G8, the media will be there, and it's a perfect forum for such "voicing of concern".  Too bad urine-filled eggs and burning molotovs will instead take the headlines, instead of allegations of human rights abuses in the third world.  Oh, we'll hear about those, alright, but only those alleged to be have taken place by "The Man".  A crying shame, really.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Protester road trip on the road:


> The Vancouver Peoples' Summit is sending a busload of people to Ontario to take part in G8 and G20 protests next week.
> 
> The 15-person bus with the words, "The Peoples' Vision," painted on the side will arrive in Toronto on Thursday.
> 
> Ries Memtink says he's getting on the bus because the government isn't listening to the concerns of Canadians on about climate change, poverty, human rights and other issues.
> 
> Memtink says his protest will be peaceful, and while some activists may be violent, he doesn't understand why the government would waste so many millions of dollars on security.
> 
> *Vancouver summit organizer Hunter Moyes says there's been talk at about changing tactics away from violence to get governments to listen, so he doesn't expect rock throwing, burning bras and loud hailers in Ontario.*
> 
> Violent protests have marred several of the G8 and G20 meetings which are hosted by a different country each year.


Re:  the bit in yellow - I'd like to hope so, but I wouldn't bet my loonie on ZERO violence.

OPP good to go:


> Security preparations for the upcoming G8/G20 Summits are among the most comprehensive and complex ever initiated in Canada, says Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) Commissioner Julian Fantino. The OPP, working in close cooperation with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), various levels of law enforcement and the Canadian Forces, is focused on ensuring the safety and security of world leaders, as well as residents and visitors during the G8 Summit in Huntsville.
> 
> "Providing security for such high profile events is a major undertaking, given the presence of the world's most powerful leaders and that Summits of this nature provide many different opportunities for groups and organizations to draw attention to their causes," says Commissioner Fantino. "We are committed to the highest level of security for the world's leaders and also to ensuring that events occurring elsewhere in Ontario in the coming week take place in a safe and orderly manner."
> 
> The OPP is well prepared to ensure that public safety and the right to peaceful freedom of expression and assembly are served in the best way possible. While much of the activity will be centred in the areas of the Summits, the OPP is prepared to respond to protest activity in other parts of the province.
> 
> According to Commissioner Fantino, "Our planning and preparations are appropriate to our goal of seeing these activities through to a positive conclusion, as has been the case with the peaceful nature of recent First Nations demonstrations across the Province."
> 
> Commissioner Fantino reiterates that criminal activity will not be tolerated. "The OPP fully respects the right to peaceful protest, but anyone intent on engaging in acts of lawlessness will be held accountable." ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

...from the Unambiguously Ambidextrous blog:


> .... for pity’s sake why take to the pavements of Toronto against:
> 
> Brazil
> China
> India
> Indonesia
> Mexico
> South Africa?....


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _National Post_:


> The Integrated Security Unit has confirmed that the RCMP will be deploying water canons during the G8 summit in Huntsville, Ont., and the G20 summit in Toronto.
> 
> “It will assist public order units with crowd and riot control,” said ISU spokeswoman Jillian Van Acker. “Research has shown that the water projection system causes less injury than other use of force options and it reduces the physical contact between police and members of the public.”
> 
> The water cannons, which the RCMP refers to as “water projection systems,” will be mounted on trucks that can be driven to the edge of large groups of demonstrators ....


More from the Canadian Press here.

Meanwhile, Twitter traffic's picking up, with posts like these:
The police brutality in TO begins. T-minus two days to #torontog20 #g20report #g20 #resistg20 

And what do some Tweeters mean by "brutality" or "harassment"?  Highlights mine...
Just saw police harass activists. *Steal flag poles* #g20report


----------



## Danjanou

I spent my lunch hour wandering about downtown. Lots of Cops up by Police HQ on College  and by the Delta Hotel. No protesters at all unless the kiddies lining up by HMV on Yonge for some concert tickets count. 8) Too damn hot and humid out there to shout and move about much anyway.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hope this doesn't affect you, bud!  ;D


> The following downtown Toronto LCBO stores will be closed Friday, June 25 through Sunday, June 27 during the G20 Summit:
> 
> * Queens Quay, 2 Cooper Street
> * First Canadian Place
> * Union Station
> * St. Lawrence Market, 87 Front Street West
> * Loblaws Plaza, 10 Lower Jarvis Street at Queens Quay
> * 415 King Street East at Spadina Avenue
> * 337 Spadina Avenue, north of Dundas at Baldwin Street
> 
> This action is being taken to minimize risks to customers and staff and reduce traffic congestion in the downtown core. We apologize for any inconvenience.
> 
> All other Toronto LCBO stores are scheduled to open during the Summit weekend, including the following locations which are nearest the stores that are closing:
> 
> * Atrium on Bay, 595 Bay Street at Dundas Street West
> * Manulife Centre, 55 Bloor Street West at Bay Street
> * Hudson’s Bay Centre, 20 Bloor Street East at Yonge Street
> * 545 Yonge Street at Wellesley Street East
> * Liberty Village, 85 Hanna Avenue
> * 512 Parliament Street at Gerrard Street
> 
> For more information, customers can also call the LCBO Contact Centre at 416 365-5900, or click here for other store locations.


----------



## 57Chevy

Looks like some rain on its way.........I hope it flippin pours buckets, and water cannons to boot. ;D

Weather forcasts for Toronto: http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/canada/toronto/ext


----------



## Michael OLeary

OK, now it's getting serious, the denial of essential services to the citizenry:

LCBO to close seven stores near G20 security area



> Seven downtown Toronto LCBO stores will be dry during the G20 summit.
> 
> While some Torontonians may have a good reason to drink during the anticipated summit strife, the LCBO announced the seven stores closest to the security zone will be shuttered from Friday to Sunday.
> 
> “We expect travel to be rather difficult for both customers and staff,” LCBO spokesman Chris Layton said Monday.
> 
> While Layton said the LCBO isn’t “anticipating any problems” but will close the stores as a “precautionary measure.”
> 
> Staff at the seven closed stores will be redeployed to other locations.
> 
> “We anticipate business will be fairly brisk at the other stores,” Layton said.
> 
> The seven stores closed from Friday to Sunday are:
> 
> • Queens Quay, 2 Cooper St.
> • First Canadian Place
> • Union Station
> • St. Lawrence Market, 87 Front St. W.
> • Loblaws Plaza, 10 Lower Jarvis St. at Queens Quay
> • 415 King St. W. at Spadina Ave.
> • 337 Spadina Ave., at Baldwin St.


----------



## GINge!

Heard that the OPP confiscated a large number of balloons filled with liquid feces. That's just nasty.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> OK, now it's getting serious, the denial of essential services to the citizenry:
> 
> LCBO to close seven stores near G20 security area


Beatcha to it in #322  

On another note, it doesn't get clearer than this from the Integrated Security Unit on the use of agent provocateurs - this via Facebook:


> None of the ISU partners use so-called “agents provocateurs” – personnel intended to infiltrate and provoke action on the part of protestors or other organizations. In fact, the role of the police is to de-escalate tensions and preserve the peace.


----------



## 57Chevy

G8/G20 summits have low terrorism risk: CSIS

"I think [there is] surprisingly little on the terrorism front," Richard Fadden, the director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service told the CBC's Peter Mansbridge in an exclusive interview. "We don't think there is anyone who is really interested in doing any harm from that perspective." 

"Anarchist groups" and "multi-issue extremists" are a different matter, however, Fadden suggested. 

"Nothing attracts the world media like the G8 and G20, so anyone who is interested in getting their issues in front of the public, I think, are interested in being in Toronto," Fadden said at his Ottawa office. He predicted turnouts of "a substantial amount of people." 

While the RCMP is the lead agency in securing the summits, CSIS has spent the last 12 to 18 months gathering intelligence it hopes could help the RCMP with "any breaches of the law that might occur," he said. 

The G8 summit begins Friday in Huntsville. The G20 runs Saturday and Sunday in downtown Toronto.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=24646999

              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Yesterday's anarchist statement today on yesterday's protests:


> .... While we work to create the communities we want to live in, we must remember that if we do not stop it, capitalism will sooner or later destroy all that we build. Therefore we must resist, and fight back as if our lives depend on it. When we resist, we stand alongside people all over the world who refuse to allow their communities to be gutted for the profit of the rich. It is the just, co-operative systems that we can create in our daily lives that inspire us to fight against economic injustice in the streets ....



First gathering:


> Hundreds of noisy G20 demonstrators shut down traffic in downtown Toronto on Monday protesting the heavy police presence in the city.
> 
> With the gathering of world leaders just days away, anti-poverty activists and others rallied at Allan Gardens.
> 
> Chanting slogans such as "Whose streets? Our streets!" and "Justice now!" the demonstrators — some masked, others wearing T-shirts with slogans or carrying banners — marched through the streets.
> 
> They blocked intersections, briefly occupied an Esso gas station then walked past the Eaton Centre .... One protester was arrested. The demonstrators plan to stage another march during Tuesday afternoon's rush hour ....



Today's theme?


> Calling all: queers, homos, transfolk, gender benders and blenders, fierce femmes, leather daddies and mamas, poets, voguers, artists, brazen butches, freaks, riot grrrls and bois, MCs, porn stars, singers, dancers and ruckus causers! Organizers of tomorrow’s day of action for queer rights have released a call to action against the G8/G20 Summits in Toronto. June 22, 2010 Day of Action: “Bring your bedazzled balaclavas and colourful masks if you want, along with something hot pink (extra armbands will be available), signs, banners, noisemakers, instruments!” Meet: 4:30 pm @ Queen Street and Yonge Street …. I sure damn hope that the Roving Kiss-In Action will still go down; I’ve noticed it’s been taken off the Toronto Community Mobilization Network’s calendar …. Please Note: Do not attempt to kiss a police officer. While everyone might be enchanted by how great the event is, touching a cop anywhere on their body with anywhere on your body could lead to an assault charge ….



More here.


----------



## observor 69

Today's TO Star on why those protesters at the G20 aren't all "terrorists" but rather citizens concerned about valid issues.
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Toronto Star:


G20 protests have a point 
June 22, 2010


Activists pranced naked on Parliament Hill to call attention to poverty the last time Canada hosted the Group of Eight summit in 2002. They plastered “Capitalism Kills” stickers on walls and handed out peanuts to protest the G8’s miserly foreign aid.

And a few scuffled with police and paint-bombed banks. 

How much “grief” can Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his guests expect from their street critics this time around? That’s anyone’s guess. They certainly deserve some. The G8’s own self-congratulatory “accountability report” concedes they are $10 billion short on past pledges to help Africa. In Europe, stimulus is now giving way to austerity, even though the recovery is fragile at best. And financial institutions are still under-regulated in many countries. 

Indeed, the leaders would do even less, absent popular pressure to do more. That, ultimately, is what the People’s Summit and other events in Toronto are all about: reminding the “corporatist” G8/G20 that they are out of step on issues that people care about.

The activists are a large family. They include Amnesty International, the Canadian Labour Congress, the David Suzuki Foundation, Make Poverty History, Oxfam and the Canadian Health Coalition, to cite some of the more than 100 groups associated with the People’s Summit workshops at Ryerson University last weekend. Millions of Canadians support their causes, including trade unionists, environmentalists, faith groups and rights lobbyists. 

That is something the 10,000 police who have been deployed should keep in mind. The protest rallies, forums and marches planned for this week speak to a large constituency.

It’s all about forging grassroots alliances to step up pressure on the politicians on many fronts: to preserve jobs and social programs; to avoid balancing budgets on the backs of workers; to curb global poverty, disease, rights abuses, greenhouse gases; and to address the corrosive rich/poor gap.

It is also about holding Ottawa to account on domestic poverty, social programs, indigenous rights and the oil sands. 

Diverse as these issues are, they encompass the great challenges of our times. Our leaders should rise to them. The activists have every right to try to nudge them along. Peacefully, of course.

There’s a paradox here. Many activists view the $1 billion summits as a waste. They mistrust the summit leaders and regard globalization as the enemy. Indeed, “Resisting the G20” was the theme of one Ryerson workshop. But it will take more global leadership and more summitry, not less, to forge the political consensus to move forward.

Even so, the People’s Summit movement, amplified by social media, challenges official complacency. That alone makes it a welcome part of this week’s scene. The summit leaders can do better.


----------



## GAP

Shots fired into air from car in G20 traffic zone: Report
More than a dozen off-duty RCMP officers witness shots being fired
Article Link

At least four shots were reportedly fired into the air early Tuesday inside the G20 traffic zone in downtown Toronto.

CP24 reports that at about 3:30 a.m., more than a dozen off-duty RCMP officers witnessed the shots being fired by the occupants in a black car.

The car sped away from the scene (at King and John) but police were able to get a partial licence plate number and are now looking for the vehicle.

CP24 reports at least two shell casings were recovered at the scene.

Anti-G20 demonstrators, meanwhile, say they will be back in downtown Toronto Tuesday trying to be heard.

Hundreds of protesters shut down traffic in parts of the city Monday – marching through the streets while officers on bicycles moved alongside, blocking side streets as they passed by.
end


----------



## observor 69

TO Star:

Shots fired near G20 security zone

Staff Reporters 
Police are searching for a black BMW that fled from Toronto’s Entertainment District early Tuesday after shots were fired near the G20 security zone.

At least three shots were fired from a vehicle near John St. and King St. W around 3:15 a.m. investigators say, despite an increased police presence in the area.

While the shots were fired close to the yellow G20 security zone, where more than 5,000 police officers are set to patrol downtown Toronto, police say they have no reason to believe this incident is related to the upcoming summit.
Investigators say three shell casings from a small caliber gun were found in the area but could not confirm reports that police vehicles pursued the vehicle to the city’s west end where it disappeared, or that more than a dozen off-duty RCMP officers witnessed the shooting.

Nobody was injured and the investigation is ongoing. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/826739--shots-fired-near-g20-security-zone


----------



## mariomike

Water Cannon Water Projection Systems (WPS):
http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/21/14467041.html

Police WPS versus Firefighters in Belgium:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=644_1172713530

"Explosives charge in G20-related probe: TORONTO - A Toronto man has been arrested in connection with G20 summit security, and charges include possession of explosives.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100623/national/g20_arrest


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit of levity from one of the satirical Twitter feeds, @G20security:



> So tiring to keep pointing out how important all the security is. Thank god for stock PR phrases like ‘Somalia-like haven of chaos’ #g20
> 
> Teargas is NOT life-threatening. If #G20 allowed instant replay half these protesters would get red-carded for diving.



and my personal fave:



> We asked @anarchists to pre-register w riot squads, just as delegates do w/ security. But response to dialogue is less than we hoped #G20


----------



## The Bread Guy

Gee, I'm surprised - emphasis mine:


> In a moment of startling candour yesterday, organizers of this week’s G8 and G20 protests refused to condemn the use of violence during demonstrations, saying participants will “resist in ways that make sense for them.”
> 
> *Syed Hussan, a spokesman for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, told reporters gathered at the group’s Queen Street West headquarters that summit security personnel can expect “different people taking different actions in the ways that they see fit.”
> 
> When asked if the group, a collection of grassroots organizations and activists, condemns violent protest at the two summits, Mr. Hussan replied: “No.”*
> 
> The refusal to discourage extreme tactics — which security experts fear could include the torching of banks and vehicles in the downtown core — comes a day after Toronto police discovered a cache of “homemade weapons” hidden in some bushes near Allan Gardens, the picturesque park near Yonge and College Streets where protesters are expected to hunker down and establish a tent city.
> 
> Sergeant Tim Burrows would not describe the exact nature of the devices discovered by police, but said they could be wielded or thrown “in an offensive manner.” He added that officers on general patrol in an undisclosed area also discovered broken concrete and bricks that could be used as projectiles. They were found in a back alley where there was no evidence of construction, he said ....


They want to run protests and sent a message, they want to keep a grip on people protesters might be uncomfortable around, but they will NOT deal with violence.


----------



## vonGarvin

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> They want to run protests and sent a message, they want to keep a grip on people protesters might be uncomfortable around, but they will NOT deal with *violence*.


Not quite true.  They only deal with violence towards women, homosexuals, aboriginals, minorities, third world nations, etc.  But not to whitey, eg, "The Man".


----------



## The Bread Guy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Not quite true.  They only deal with violence towards women, homosexuals, aboriginals, minorities, third world nations, etc.  But not to whitey, eg, "The Man".


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## vonGarvin

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification.


Glad to be of help ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, an interesting arrest (Toronto PS rls attached):


> On Tuesday, June 22, 2010, at approximately 2 p.m., as a result of an ongoing investigation, Toronto Police Service officers executed a search warrant at 58 Elderwood Drive, in the Bathurst and Lawrence area of Toronto.
> 
> Byron Sonne, 37, of Toronto, has been arrested and charged with:
> 1) Intimidation of Justice System Participant by Threat
> 2) Intimidation of Justice System Participant by Watch and Beset
> 3) Mischief interfere with property
> 4) Attempt mischief
> 5) Possess explosive for unlawful purpose
> 6) Weapons dangerous.
> 
> (....)



A bit more from CBC.ca and the National Post.

Jesse Hirsch, a "Broadcaster, Speaker, Researcher and Strategist" who we hear from time to time on CBC Radio talking about IT issues, shares these tidbits via his Twitter feed - first Tweet links to CBC.ca story above:


> HackLabTO & Surveillance Club member Byron Sonne has been arrested http://bit.ly/bbBhiA He had planned to monitor police & share via twitter
> 
> Byron also indicated he was trying to trigger alerts by buying innocuous items. Seems he successfully got their attention.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> Byron also indicated he was trying to trigger alerts by buying innocuous items. Seems he successfully got their attention.



Like walking through an airport muttering the word "bomb", whether or not there is one you're still an idiot and you deserve exactly what response you receive.


----------



## ModlrMike

Innocuous items would not result in the first two nor the last two charges, but perhaps only the middle two. There's more to this yet.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Wanna draw media attention without violence and balloons full of crap?  Want to show your commitment to a cause?  This from the G&M:


> As world leaders, their entourages and demonstrators arrive in Huntsville in helicopters, tinted-glass cars and buses, Sekiguchi Toyoshige found a more primitive means of getting here: His legs.
> 
> The Japanese Buddhist monk began his pilgrimage from Toronto June 11 and arrived in Huntsville Tuesday afternoon, walking about 20 kilometres a day. He said the peace-walk was to encourage G8 leaders meeting here later this week to abolish the use of nuclear weapons and support harmony between religions.
> 
> As he rested for dinner at a local Huntsville restaurant Tuesday night, the 45-year-old did not appear tired. “Not so hard,” he said of his trek. “Everybody can do that.”
> 
> He plans to walk around town beating his drum, praying and chanting while the leaders meet at the nearby Deerhurst Resort, before making his way back to Toronto for the G20 - by car, this time.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:
			
		

> "Toronto Police Service officers executed a search warrant at 58 Elderwood Drive, in the Bathurst and Lawrence area of Toronto."
> 
> Elderwood Drive is well south of Eglinton, in Forest Hills.



What's your point?


----------



## Danjanou

recceguy said:
			
		

> What's your point?



That the TPS have yet to master Google maps?  8)

In other news some numpty left a suitcase unattended on the platform at the Queens Park subway station during rush hour this morning and that had the station closed and sealed off for afew hours just making those of us dumb enough ot come downtown to work this week just a bit less "happy campers" than normal. :


----------



## Teeps74

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wanna draw media attention without violence and balloons full of crap?  Want to show your commitment to a cause?  This from the G&M:



Imagine that, a peaceful protest AND he got in the news with his message AND I read his message. This gentleman I like and respect.

Perhaps if the rest of the protesters were near as creative, there would be less of a requirement for security and more of their message getting out.

Oh well, at least I will get free entertainment on Sat... I restocked on beer and popcorn, gonna watch the whole thing on CBC and CTV from the safety of my home.


----------



## vonGarvin

I also he mis spelled one of the cities' names:
It's "Tranna", not "Tronto" ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I also he mis spelled one of the cities' names:
> It's "Tranna", not "Tronto" ;D


Only the old fogeys say "Tranna" now. All the kewl kids at the protest call it "T Dot." :

So it appears the police have tested theri special billion dollar anti protester earthquake machine today.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle

I think the Iranian clerics are blaming this tremor on Boobquake not the TPS.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> So it appears the police have tested theri special billion dollar anti protester earthquake machine today.


Hey, we joke, but I'd bet a loonie....


----------



## stukirkpatrick

if that quake damaged that nice fence, we're done!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Only the old fogeys say "Tranna" now. All the kewl kids at the protest call it "T Dot." :



I prefer to call it Moronto. Of course, all of my good acquaintances there are simply victims of circumstance and not derision.


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Like walking through an airport muttering the word "bomb", whether or not there is one you're still an idiot and you deserve exactly what response you receive.



Considering his job is to find holes in IT security, maybe he was testing the authourities security computers keeping watch of the internet and purchases of potential terrorists without their knowledge. I remember toying with the idea of doing something like years ago, but limited to just browsing various flagged websites and information, just to see what sort of attention I would get from big brother.


----------



## Teflon

mellian said:
			
		

> Considering his job is to find holes in IT security, maybe he was testing the authourities security computers keeping watch of the internet and purchases of potential terrorists without their knowledge. I remember toying with the idea of doing something like years ago, but limited to just browsing various flagged websites and information, just to see what sort of attention I would get from big brother.



Big Brother?  :

"just to see what sort of attention I would get from big brother." - Mother didn't give you enough attention as a child? It's a well known reason for juvenile  acting out.


----------



## mariomike

recceguy said:
			
		

> I prefer to call it Moronto. Of course, all of my good acquaintances there are simply victims of circumstance and not derision.



Sumbody has to live here, R-G.


----------



## mellian

Teflon said:
			
		

> Big Brother?  :
> 
> "just to see what sort of attention I would get from big brother." - Mother didn't give you enough attention as a child? It's a well known reason for juvenile  acting out.



I did say years ago and obviously did not do it or any other silly ideas.  :


----------



## Teflon

mellian said:
			
		

> I did say years ago and obviously did not do it or any other silly ideas.  :



That's ok I sure she really did love you  :


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> Considering his job is to find holes in IT security, maybe he was testing the authourities security computers keeping watch of the internet and purchases of potential terrorists without their knowledge.0



Uh, yeah, we see news stories of authorized security systems "secret shoppers" being arrested all the time.   :

I really like how he carefully masked his real purpose with weapons, explosives and intimidation as window dressing. Would you now like to make the case that maybe he's just an out-of-work actor getting into character for a yet-to-be-written role as a terrorist for the Toronto "off-Broadway" circuit?

You do know that some people get arrested because they are actually committing crimes, right?


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Uh, yeah, we see news stories of authorized security systems "secret shoppers" being arrested all the time.   :



"Considering his job is to find holes in IT security, maybe he was testing the authourities security computers keeping watch of the internet and purchases of potential terrorists *without their knowledge*." 

Of course it was not authourized.




> You do know that some people get arrested because they are actually committing crimes, right?



I am not saying he did not, I am suggesting that it may be plausible that, considering the mention career of his, he may of done it out of his curiousity to see what sort of attention he may attract, not out getting ready to commit terrorism.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Can you provide an official reference for this "I was just curious" legal defence you seem to be alluding to?


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Can you provide an official reference for this "I was just curious" legal defence you seem to be alluding to?





> milnews.ca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesse Hirsch, a "Broadcaster, Speaker, Researcher and Strategist" who we hear from time to time on CBC Radio talking about IT issues, shares these tidbits via his Twitter feed - first Tweet links to CBC.ca story above:
> 
> 
> 
> A bit more from CBC.ca and the National Post.
> 
> Jesse Hirsch, a "Broadcaster, Speaker, Researcher and Strategist" who we hear from time to time on CBC Radio talking about IT issues, shares these tidbits via his Twitter feed - first Tweet links to CBC.ca story above:
> Quote
> 
> HackLabTO & Surveillance Club member Byron Sonne has been arrested http://bit.ly/bbBhiA He had planned to monitor police & share via twitter
> 
> * Byron also indicated he was trying to trigger alerts by buying innocuous items. Seems he successfully got their attention.*
Click to expand...


----------



## Michael OLeary

That's not what I asked for. You have simply introduced one more red herring.  Claiming he was innocently testing the system is like a shoplifter claiming to be "just testing store security" when caught.

Clean up your approach to posting, answer the questions your posts provoke, or you will be having to find a new place to camp and spout your rhetoric.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jesus wept. :


----------



## 57Chevy

These punks do use the internet to gather information on other terrorists factions, and actually
leave messages to each other. But finding holes in security networks ? Really now.
For an interesting read on this: From the Los Angeles Times
Internet making it easier to become a terrorist:
   http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/11/nation/la-na-internet-jihad12-2010mar12


----------



## Loachman

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/827139--g20-fashions-for-the-militant-and-fabulous



> G20 fashions for the militant and fabulousWear the wrong thing, get tear gassed
> 
> Published On Wed Jun 23 2010Email Print Republish Add to Favourites Report an error Share Share  Article
> 
> This easy-to-wash cotton/polyester ensemble will definitely be noticed by police. An optional bandana is made with polyester to protect from noxious fumes, but it also pampers the protestor with the luxury of satin.
> 
> KATIE DAUBS/TORONTO STAR
> 
> Dressing for G20 protests is tricky. Look too corporate and you might be paintbombed. Dress like a militant protester, you run the risk of being tear gassed.
> 
> But have a stylist help you, you look fabulous.
> 
> “If you’re leading (these protests) and you know pictures are being taken of you, why not look good?” said Kathryn McEwen, the general manager of Queen St. W. boutique Fashion Crimes.
> 
> On the opposite end of the spectrum, former RCMP officer and security expert Chris Mathers had more conservative advice.
> 
> “Don’t go,” he said. “That’s how you should dress.”
> 
> So many options.
> 
> If you’re the rabble-rousing, tear-gas-loving type who won’t be held back by mere warnings, synthetic fabrics are your best bet since tear gas sticks to natural fibres. Bandanas soaked in vinegar are a snazzy, yet functional accessory if you don’t have a gas mask handy when noxious fumes fly. A helmet is also a good idea if you anticipate being close to the fence, where projectiles are more likely to rain from the sky.
> 
> The Canadian Labour Congress expects a peaceful protest this Saturday, which is perfect for cotton blends and natural fabrics.
> 
> “Wear something comfortable, something light. Make sure you’ve got sunscreen, sunglasses, and a hat would be advisable. Flip flops are not a good idea,” spokesman Jeff Atkinson said.
> 
> Atkinson said people should keep their Armani at home if they’re looking to blend in with labour activists. Black clothing, scarves and bandanas will attract police attention, but Atkinson said people shouldn’t shy away from any of those things, because lots of peaceful protestors wear them in solidarity. Solidarity never goes out of style, with the exception of one or two cults.
> 
> Black, the refuge of brooding artists, the late Johnny Cash and goths, is the colour of choice for militant protesters who hang out near the fence. It is also slimming.
> 
> “It might not be the best fashion decision for the day,” Atkinson said, noting the humid forecast. “But if it is overcast, you might want to get your black out.”
> 
> Mathers said covering your face with a bandana is an indication to police that you could be trouble. He mused on advice for the protester looking to steer clear of police and militant attention.
> 
> “Plaid?” he offered. “I hate to think of people at home in their closet missing the protest because they can’t make a fashion decision.”


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That's not what I asked for. You have simply introduced one more red herring.  Claiming he was innocently testing the system is like a shoplifter claiming to be "just testing store security" when caught.
> 
> Clean up your approach to posting, answer the questions your posts provoke, or you will be having to find a new place to camp and spout your rhetoric.









I guess you need to be more specific or give me a script, as I did answer your question. I made a _suggestion_ hence the use of words "maybe" in that sentence I wrote and quoted in my previous post, not a claim. Also provided the exact quote that I based my suggestion on.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> I guess you need to be more specific or give me a script, as I did answer your question. I made a _suggestion_ hence the use of words "maybe" in that sentence I wrote and quoted in my previous post, not a claim. Also provided the exact quote that I based my suggestion on.



This was very specific.  



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Can you provide an official reference for this "I was just curious" legal defence you seem to be alluding to?



And I am through with your meandering and useless contribution here.

Good bye.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## 57Chevy

I like this part ;D

On the opposite end of the spectrum, former RCMP officer and security expert Chris Mathers had more conservative advice.

“Don’t go,” he said. “That’s how you should dress.”

Good one


----------



## The Bread Guy

_Globe & Mail_ columnist nails it:


> .... The fact is that activists find the violent fringe useful. Violence draws television cameras – if it bleeds, it leads – and cameras draw attention to the struggle. Activist leaders may not throw bricks themselves, but many will be quite content if others do.
> 
> And when it happens, you can be sure they will blame the violence entirely on the police.
> 
> To sock the copper and cry police brutality when he hits back is the oldest trick in the book. Activists are already calling the fence and the massed police a “provocation” – in other words, a green light for brick tossing ....



Also, some posts from the Twitter feed of  the IT security chap arrested this week:

<a href="http://twitter.com/torontogoat/status/16557213438"> don't forget design flaw in most G20 fence: holes are small enough to thread big  bolts in for extra leverage and grip #g20report</a>

<a href="http://twitter.com/torontogoat/status/16515556933">these would be  handy for scaling G20 fences; the ones I have at home would fit the smaller grid  fence http://tinyurl.com/36hs6vp #g20report</a>

<a href="http://twitter.com/torontogoat/status/16268806757">New videos of G20  Fence line finished uploading http://www.youtube.com/user/torontogoat these ones  got me some police trouble #g20report</a>

More here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> The common-law partner of a man facing charges in a G20 security investigation has now been charged with explosives offences.
> 
> Thirty-seven-year-old Kristen Peterson of Toronto, has been charged with possession of an explosive device and possession of weapon for a dangerous purpose, and is due in court today at 2 p.m.
> 
> Toronto and provincial police executed search warrants Wednesday at residences in the Township of Tiny, about 150 kilometres north of Toronto, and in the Township of Lake of Bays, near Algonquin park ....



Toronto Police Service release attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

...what caused yesterday's earthquake  :


> The Canadian police state got a taste of our geological power today at 1:43pm, as we made our first strike against the G20 — a 5.5 earthquake which was unjustly downgraded to a 5.0 by the USGS. However, our tectonic rage will not be contained by the arbitrary hegemony of the Richter scale — we make it quake, in total solidarity with the exploited, regardless.
> 
> We used isostatic rebound to f*** up your s***, interrupting the flow of commerce and the tranquility of your Starbucks coffee, striking abject terror into the hearts of yuppies’ parakeets, mildly unsettling pedestrians, and causing a stack of business cards to fall over in the Ottawa office of National Post political columnist Don Martin. The National Post was targeted for its Zionist tendencies.
> 
> We know this action will be characterized as terrorism. We envisage the criminalization of our revolt with serenity.
> 
> ARE YOU QUAKING IN YOUR BOOTS


Uh, yeah...


----------



## medicineman

Obviously someone's not sharing their meds with the voices in their head...


MM


----------



## Danjanou

large group meandering about 1,000+ meanderign about downtown. Bumped into them around 1230-1300 at Nathan Phillips Square and they were heading north up Bay. Was advised they were moving down Yonge from Bloor about 30 minutes ago.

Plenty of cops in crowd control gear in groups around the core. I can see about 60-80 near Wellesley Subway station.


----------



## The Bread Guy

...from Toronto's Chief of Police - via CBC.ca:



> Police have arrested one man after he allegedly tried to drive a car containing "possible dangerous material" close to the G20 summit area in downtown Toronto.
> 
> The car contained sticks, an axe handle and gasoline, Toronto police Chief Bill Blair told CBC News on Thursday.
> 
> The Canadian Press reported two blue containers and at least three gas cans could be seen on the road, and a chainsaw, apparently taken from the car, was on the sidewalk.
> 
> A crossbow was also found, police say.
> 
> The man — according to witnesses, he is 53 and from Ontario — was arrested on The Esplanade, a street close to the Sony Centre on Front Street.
> 
> (....)
> 
> *(Chief Bill) Blair warned others about bringing "anything that could be used as a weapon or might be construed as a weapon" into the area.
> 
> "It will undoubtedly draw the attention of the authorites," Blair said. "If you don't want that attention, don't bring weapons into the area."*


Too easy, right?

More on the incident here via the _National Post_.


----------



## Old Sweat

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ...from Toronto's Chief of Police - via CBC.ca:
> Too easy, right?



Waaaay too easy.


----------



## Danjanou

Unconfirmed reports have the guy arrested as driving a Hyundai, and having a cross bow, a chain saw and cans of gasoline.

It appears the either the zombie apocalypse is hear (hey earthquakes and tornados already) or the lead anti G-20 protestor is Ash 






Hmm based on the march I saw earlier maybe it is the zombie thing. The group was kind of shambling along and the first word that came to mind was "bovine."
 :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Someone out there is thinking (sorta) like you .....


> Ash from EvilDead arrested for chainsaw and crossbow.No word on weather a boomstick was found.H.P.Lovecraft wanted 4 questioning


...but let's hope you're not quite like this (earlier post from same person):


> passed out watching Trading Places. craving mustard. Head feel funny.


----------



## Danjanou

Still watching to see if/when the TPS arrest a mouthy roller derby queen? >


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Still watching to see if/when the TPS arrest a mouthy roller derby queen? >


Now that she has more free time?  :nod:


----------



## daftandbarmy

It looks like the police in Toronto are certainly watching something closely...


----------



## Michael OLeary

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> It looks like the police in Toronto are certainly watching something closely...



_"Alright, watch the screen, I'll point it out when they show a vuvuzela.  Remember, if those show up in the protests trying to drown out the sound cannons, we're authorized to shoot on sight. Any questions?"_


----------



## Teeps74

Maybe I am wrong, but I was brought through the system to believe that once a person has been counselled and punished, the subject should be dropped.

As right (or wrong) as we may have been, gloating about it now just makes us look like the fools on the other side of the fence.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Darn I hate when he's right.....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Reporters/media outlets have to apply for accreditation to these things, right?  So, as part of that process, should the security folks have been asking media at that point what they might be carrying (or political folks liaising with security types to do the same), or should media have pre-declared "health & safety rules dictate that our staff have body armour/gas masks"?  I ask because I don't know what happens with such accreditation processes.

This from the Canadian Press:


> There's security, and then there's G8 security _ complete with hundreds of police officers seemingly bored out of their minds.
> 
> "Excuse me, sir, can you open the trunk of your car?" one young officer asked as he motioned for me to pull over Thursday evening.
> 
> Alarm bells went off in my head as I was about to enter the "interdiction zone," dreaded by the poor residents living near the site of Canada's G8 summit. Living inside the zone has meant a five minute drive home from downtown Huntsville could easily take half an hour or more.
> 
> As a journalist assigned to cover the G8 in Huntsville, I had been here twice before on this sunny day, showing my identification and a letter issued to me that would allow me into the zone. Both times, no problems.
> 
> This time, however, the officer took exception to my Parliament Hill badge, which I wear every day while covering politics in Ottawa and which clearly identifies me as a reporter.
> 
> After weaving my way through the s-shaped zig-zag checkpoint area, I pulled over to an area reserved only for those who might soon be ejected.
> 
> Before I opened the trunk of my car, there were two officers scanning my vehicle from the outside.
> 
> Once the lid was opened, and the contents of the trunk revealed, uniformed police seemed to come out of every corner.
> 
> Two more police officers. Then four more. Three taking notes. Then another.
> 
> Two more still began to rifle their way through the entire car, looking curiously at my half-eaten bagel and the bottle of wine I bought as a thank you gesture to my friend and Huntsville resident for letting me stay at his place for a couple of nights.
> 
> While one stood guard over me, presumably for my own safety, officers from the Ontario Provincial Police crime unit descended on the vehicle.
> 
> Then, the G8 security task force sent in their people. More uniforms took notes.
> 
> "Of course, we are very curious about why you are carrying body armour and a gas mask in your car," said a female officer who asked not to be identified in the media. In fact, no one could be identified. For security reasons, of course ....



Spoiler alert:  they let him go  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the _National Post_:


> The Toronto Police Service has been prohibited from using the “alert” function of its so-called “sound cannons” against protesters at the G20 Summit.
> 
> Ontario Superior Court Justice David Brown granted a limited injunction after hearing arguments earlier this week.
> 
> “If the Toronto Police Service were to operate the alert function in accordance with their current operating procedures, a very real likelihood existed that demonstrators might suffer damage to their hearing,” the judge said in a comprehensive 44-page ruling issued Friday morning.
> 
> Toronto police may still use the “voice” function of the Long Range Acoustical Devices (LRAD) for crowd control during the summit. The alert function may also be activated for marine operations or in Emergency Task force situations.
> 
> Judge Brown also declined to order restrictions on the Ontario Provincial Police use of the alert function on its LRAD devices, The standard operating procedure of the OPP for its sound cannon,  involves a “lower volume” and “greater distance” from crowds than Toronto police ....



Meanwhile, "he says-she says" about a law requiring people to identify themselves to get into a certain area - this from the Canadian Press ....:


> Critics are comparing a secret law passed by the Ontario government to give police special powers during the G8 and G20 summits to Canada's War Measures Act.
> 
> The regulation gives police the power to arrest anyone coming within five metres of the security fences around the summit site in Toronto.
> 
> Police can also demand identification from people near the security fences, and anyone who refuses to provide it can face up to two months in jail and a $500 fine.
> 
> A spokeswoman for the Ministry of Community Safety says the Ontario Public Works Protection Act dates back to 1939, and was simply extended to the G20 security perimeter for one week.
> 
> The same law gives police the power to ask anyone entering a courthouse for identification and to search any bags they have.
> 
> The province's Liberal cabinet secretly passed the new regulation June 2 without any debate in the legislature, which was still in session at the time.
> 
> A Facebook group created today condemns the Ontario Public Works Protection Act, which it says "seriously curtails our rights and freedoms."
> 
> The law went into effect on Monday and will expire next Monday, after the G20 wraps up in Toronto.



.... and this from Toronto's Police Chief, via the _Toronto Star_:


> An exasperated Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair is defending the police's sweeping powers to arrest anyone near the G20 security zone who refuse to identify themselves.
> 
> Blair has said repeatedly at a morning news conference that the law wasn't a secret, that is was published two weeks ago and that there is nothing sweeping about it.
> 
> "They have a right not to identify themselves. They may leave. If they try to force their way in, they will be arrested," Blair said.  "The five metre zone around the fence is to protect the barrier. We've all seen film of people trying to pull the fence down. we want to make sure people aren't pulling down the fence."
> 
> "It's not a new law, it's not a secret law,  if you Google Public Works Protection Act, Ontario" it's there, he said.
> 
> The Star reported this morning that a 32-year-old man was arrested under the new regulations.



Sure enough - here's the Google search results, and here's the Act.


----------



## 57Chevy

From post #382
"This time, however, the officer took exception to my Parliament Hill badge, which I wear every day while covering politics in Ottawa and which clearly identifies me as a reporter."

 Who cares about your Parliament Hill badge?  Are you lost ?.... Does this look like Parliament Hill to you?      I would have jumped on it also.........full search ;D


----------



## Danjanou

57Chevy said:
			
		

> From post #382
> "This time, however, the officer took exception to my Parliament Hill badge, which I wear every day while covering politics in Ottawa and which clearly identifies me as a reporter."
> 
> Who cares about your Parliament Hill badge?  Are you lost ?.... Does this look like Parliament Hill to you?      I would have jumped on it also.........full search ;D



Really full search  >


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> A lone protester in the middle of a huge field otherwise known as the G8 protest zone has staged what will likely go down as the most successful demonstration of the summits.
> 
> "More Cookies For Kids" was 22-month-old Tyler Spencer's placard demand, and police gamely obliged Friday.
> 
> The Hunstville, Ont., boy's parents, Jennifer and Steve Spencer, are excited to have the international summit in their town and wanted to go by the designated speech area and see the action.
> 
> "We found an empty field and a few cameras and some cops," Jennifer Spencer said.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Tyler seemed more preoccupied with the mud in the field rather than the cookie protest placard his father made.
> 
> "I wanted, 'Make Carebears, Not War,' " Jennifer Spencer said.
> 
> Not long after the toddler set up camp a provincial police officer acceded to his demands.
> 
> "He got his cookie so he's happy," his mom said. "No need for aggression." ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Gee, mom, thanks for the support:


> .... Josie Forcadilla, the mother of a Canadian soldier recently deployed to Afghanistan, will join a G20 anti-war rally, making her first-ever public comments against the war. The Canadian Peace Alliance is holding a press conference at 11:30am Saturday outside the U.S. Consulate at 360 University Avenue, featuring Forcadilla and other opponents of the war.
> 
> “Considering the number of deaths, not to mention the injured and those who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it is time for the Harper government to withdraw unconditionally all Canadian Forces personnel in Afghanistan," says Forcadilla.
> 
> “The expansionist and integrationist policy of the Canadian Forces has failed as evidenced by the mounting casualties in the rank and file – 148 fallen soldiers to date -- and the toll the Afghan civilian population is taking,” Forcadilla adds ....


More here.

Also, more kumbaya messaging from some of the protesters:


> "This action will be militant and confrontational, seeking to humiliate the security apparatus and make Toronto's elites regret letting the dang G20 in here."


More here.


----------



## aesop081

> The expansionist and integrationist policy of the Canadian Forces



Hum......what ?


----------



## Michael OLeary

*Protesters vow to storm G20 security fence*
http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/26/14526566.html



> TORONTO - Union protesters are vowing to charge the G20 security fence Saturday ­ even if the police try to stop them with violence.
> 
> In a Saturday morning press conference at Allen Gardens, the Toronto Community Mobilization Network told reporters the People's First March will have protesters heading to the fence surrounding the summit site in downtown Toronto.
> 
> "Many of us will go to the fence," said Kelly O'Sullivan with the Canadian Union of Public Employees Local 4308. "We go to the fence because the (G20) don't represent working people.
> 
> "Nothing has ever been given to working people. We have to take what we deserve. If going to the fence involves violence we will decide how we will respond."
> 
> O'Sullivan said protesters have a "right to go to the fence."
> 
> "If the police respond with violence you (the media) have to hold them accountable," she said.
> 
> The People's First March is expected to start at Queen's Park at 1 p.m.
> 
> Saturday.
> 
> Ahead of the march - which is expected to be the largest protest of the summit - Toronto was a ghost town with few cars on the road and even fewer pedestrians around most of the downtown and even the city's mid-town.
> 
> After a rally outside the Ontario Legislature, the march is expected to head south and wind around the downtown before heading back to Queen's Park.
> 
> At it's southernmost point, the march will be just blocks from the G20 summit traffic zone and the fenced in outer security zone.
> 
> Groups including the Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance (SOAR) have vowed to march alongside the protest before heading for the fence.
> 
> According to postings on anarchist websites, the group is vowing to "to confront the police state and Toronto's corporate culture."
> 
> "This action will be militant and confrontational, seeking to humiliate the security apparatus and make Toronto's elites regret letting the dang G20 in here," states a SOAR callout posted on the Guerrilla Underground Network.



A little more at link, including:



> Meanwhile the Globe and Mail is reporting two G20 officers were robbed of laptops, badges and their ID. In one case, the newspaper says an officer was robbed in his hotel room by a prostitute. An RCMP officer's room was broken into, the report says. Most of the stolen items have been found and police are searching for the suspects.


----------



## cn

My kind of protest... 

**Picture on the link makes the story awesome! (edit: attached below)

From the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/huntsville-a-protest-free-zone/article1619160/

Caroline Alphonso 

Huntsville, Ont. — From Saturday's Globe and Mail 
Published on Friday, Jun. 25, 2010 10:57PM EDT


.At one point Friday, the only demonstrator on the designated protest grounds was a one-year-old demanding cookies.

Despite the millions spent to keep demonstrators away from world leaders in Huntsville, the mass protests that have marked other G8 summits didn’t materialize here. A designated protest zone, a farmer’s field down the highway from the Deerhurst Resort where leaders met Friday, sat empty, except for young Tyler Spencer.

The boy wandered aimlessly around the field next to a placard that read “More Cookies for Kids.” His demands were immediately met: Police officers gave him packets of chocolate-chip cookies.

“He got his cookie, so he’s happy,” joked his mother, Jennifer. “No need for aggression.” 

As Toronto is beset by protests, Huntsville residents lingered on street corners wondering where the action was.

“Are you a protester?” asked an elderly man as a reporter walked by. Anxious residents stood along Main Street with cameras in hand, hoping to catch a glimpse of a demonstration or of a G8 leader. All they saw was some light traffic, including police motorbikes and cruisers driving by.

There were some modest demonstrations. Early Friday morning, a small group of locals walked the town’s centre calling for leaders to declare water a human right.

Oxfam brought out giant papier-mâché heads of the G8 leaders and stood by the town dock. The group’s ambassador, actor Bill Nighy, was on hand to be a “benign nuisance” and urge G8 leaders to move the issue of poverty up on their agenda.

“I’m an actor. I’m not an expert in international affairs,” said Mr. Nighy, who has been in such movies as Love Actually and Pirates of the Caribbean and had just arrived here from Kenya. “I’m simply able to draw a little bit of attention, so I just wander about the place and I hope that people like you will listen.”

But in the course of his demonstrating duties, Mr. Nighy couldn’t help but notice the cottage-country surroundings. “I love it here,” said the English actor. “I want to live in Huntsville.”

With a report from The Canadian Press


----------



## ArmyRick

Bill Nighy? he would get more results if he showed up as his Pirates of the Carribean character, Davy Jones.


----------



## George Wallace

Anyone questioning the costs for Security, should be watching the NEWS.  Even CBC isn't immune.


----------



## observor 69

Watching my local CTV channel here in the GTA and things are getting very bad in the downtown G20 area.
Just the things you have seen in previous G20s. Vandalism, broken windows,burning cop cars the police security forces are working to contain the anarchists, the Black Block, but it looks like a close thing.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl

I am bothered by an inaccuracy in the MSM's coverage of todays G20 "escalation of force".

They are starting to refer to this self proclaimed splinter group as the "Black Block":

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/26/g20-saturday-protests.html

"As well, anarchists in a splinter group were spotted breaking away from the main group of marchers in a few locations, including Queen and John streets, where they attempted to move toward the summit site. They dress similar to members of the Black Block, a group that has used violence such as widespread vandalism in past G20 protests."

A "Black Bloc" is merely one of the many tactics utilized by protesters. This particular tactic has been around for about 30 years, and is known to turn violent due to the anonymity afforded to it's participants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

It is difficult to define the composition or purpose of a Black Bloc, as many times it is merely a loose affiliation of protesters united by either the charismatic leadership of an individual or the detailed planning of a professional protester.


----------



## Michael OLeary

By definition, as soon as any group of protesters (that are unidentifiable by other specific designation) adopts those tactics they become, in effect, "black block."


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Anyone questioning the costs for Security, should be watching the NEWS.  Even CBC isn't immune.


Maybe CBC TV - just heard the 5pm national newscast on CBC Radio, and in the lead story (~1 minute +), the reporter spent a lot of time saying most protesters were not violent - and zero mention of burning police cars.

As they say on Twitter, #journalismfail


----------



## The Bread Guy

Wait, wait, wait, silly me, I'm over-reacting to the Toronto cop cars being torched.  

This from one of the protest organizing groups:


> Confirmed: @torontopolice left junk cars in streets to be torched by agents provocateurs.



The cops themselves lit their cars on fire - I see.... :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Even Olivia Chow gets it:

The peaceful rally has finished. The violence has nothing to do with it. Sad "Make Poverty History" message lost. 

Hope the pp using violence #G20 would be arrested as they are hijacking thousands of peaceful pp, esp women/children.

Maybe if she and her colleagues said this out loud, oh, I don't know, BEFORE it all started?

On a lighter note, GOTTA love this protest sign behind the reporter:


----------



## 57Chevy

Riot police begin making arrests as violent G20 protest wears on:

TORONTO — Following an afternoon of violent clashes in Toronto, riot police have begun arresting G20 protesters and have fired pepper spray into the crowd.

Clashes with police broke out early Saturday afternoon as an estimated 10,000 demonstrators took to the streets of Toronto as part of a massive anti-G20 protest that saw three police cars set on fire. 

While most were content to sing songs, wave placards and dance, a smaller group, estimated at roughly 100, were doing more serious damage, smashing windows at banks and shops in the downtown, as well as attacking two media vehicles

(article continues)

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/protests+Toronto+turn+violent/3206512/story.html#ixzz0s06tdbbc


            (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## 1feral1

Skynews Australia is all over this story this am. It was the first thing up on the news at 0800.

The whole world is watching these fools, and is no doubt waiting for what Canada will do.

CC


----------



## vonGarvin

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Hope the pp using violence #G20 would be arrested as they are hijacking thousands of peaceful pp, esp *women*/children.


Inference: it's ok if it's men, or it's not as bad if it were men.  Hey, Olivia, what happened to equal rights?  You get the shitty with the good, never forget that.

Hypocrite.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Whoa, even someone at the _Globe & Mail_ gets it!


> Claudia Calabro, a spokesperson for the Toronto Community Mobilization Network, said that police were to blame for any violence at today's protest. She said *the excessive police presence made people feel trapped. So throwing golf balls and smashing windows is acceptable under those circumstances? "We are people against the G20, we don't comment on tactics," she said.*
> 
> On Twitter, the "anarchists" feed has been going one step further, saying that police were directly responsible for violent acts. "Confirmed: @torontopolice left junk cars in streets to be torched by agents provocateurs."
> 
> Every side has its spin, I suppose, but I think it was pretty clear who started things today.


Indeed.


----------



## vonGarvin

On the televised CBC, Peter Mansbridge asked the field reporter the usual questions.  She replied that the Protest organisers blamed the violence on a handful.  She called shens  on that.  She estimated the "black bloc" at several hundred.  CTV showed their attempts to video black bloc members changing clothes.  The thugs formed rings and tried to force them back.  In one hilarious segment, he got up to those who had changed, and now without masks, asking why they changed.  

Anyway, the field reporter for the CBC also reported that contrary to what the protesters were saying, she and her crews had absolutely no evidence of tear gas being used.  Sir Peter reminded the audience that if one ever smelled gas, you would know it.  Again, more BS called on the "peace demonstrators".  

And let us not forget that the police are the thin blue line between thugs and an ordered society.  When these thugs light up these cars like this, they are attacking our societal values.  They are not "victims", but the offenders.  Pure and simple.


----------



## 57Chevy

Here's mine ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

I stand corrected about CBC's coverage based on TV's account - thanks for that.


----------



## vonGarvin

I had just happen to see it prior to booting my 13 year old off the computer so I could get updates.  I was actually pleasantly surprised.  I guess when the violence happens in "Toronto the Good", it pisses even Peter Mansbridge off! ;D


----------



## 2010newbie

Watching the BBC in Italy and their coverage of the G8/G20 spent more time on David Cameron's flight on Marine 1 than the protests. They showed a 10 second clip of protesters pushing a police car and the car on fire, while showing about the same amount on the "fake lake". The remainder of the segment was spent discussing Cameron's relationship with Obama.


----------



## The Bread Guy

When I was picking up some Lebanese food tonight, the family running the restaurant were watching some of the CBC coverage, sort of shaking their heads saying, "This happens at EVERY summit - why the excitement?"  I'm also guessing that the parents and grandparents working in the kitchen may have seen worse than a burning police car or two in the old country.

Meanwhile, funny how some of the protesters are suggesting the cops torched their own cars, while also being happy to show video of same burning cars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re3ApDcy-7Q

Also, protester radio, starting at midnight on 88.1:
http://fever2010.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/saturday-night-fever-is-no-longer-a-street-party/


> What’s going on in the city right now is decentralized – no one planned for this. It is the manifestation of the ubiquitous rage and frustration and love that lives in us all.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiight....


----------



## Michael OLeary

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> When I was picking up some Lebanese food tonight, the family running the restaurant were watching some of the CBC coverage, sort of shaking their heads saying, "This happens at EVERY summit - why the excitement?"  I'm also guessing that the parents and grandparents working in the kitchen may have seen worse than a burning police car or two in the old country.



That's what went through my mind with 2010newbie's comment: 



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> Watching the BBC in Italy and their coverage of the G8/G20 spent more time on David Cameron's flight on Marine 1 than the protests. They showed a 10 second clip of protesters pushing a police car and the car on fire, while showing about the same amount on the "fake lake". The remainder of the segment was spent discussing Cameron's relationship with Obama.



Depending on the point of perspective, Toronto hasn't even created what would be a newsworthy soccer-hooligan riot yet, let alone something worthy of influencing national or world politics.


----------



## 1feral1

What pathetic behaviour.

Who pays?

The taxpayers.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting to notice that many of the anarchists using the Black Block tactics are women.

http://www.thestar.com/fplarge/photo/829151


Now over 130 arrested.


----------



## 1feral1

You know GW, the sad thing is, when the dust settles, they'll be lucky to get a slap on the wrist by some judge.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## 1feral1

Carcharodon Carcharias said:
			
		

> You know GW, the sad thing is, when the dust settles, they'll be lucky to get a slap on the wrist by some judge.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes



EDITs this to add from www.news.co.au  http://www.news.com.au/world/g20-demo-turns-violent-police-car-burns/story-e6frfkyi-1225884766362


----------



## maikeru333

and never be able to get a job or work again, especially with children (ref slap on the wrist)


inner5pac3.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-g20-rant.html 

is that something i can post here? are links allowed on these forums?
i'm pretty sure i saw some.

maybe I will repost here and edit if its a problem...


...

i am concerned about hearing this young woman who got 'trampled' by a police horse (and rider) and was described as being 'badly bleeding and broken' ... if I were near her and her friend, them dragging her behind police lines, and noone hearing from her afterwards would seriously bother me. I mean, it does and she's a stranger, but that they create this situation... dangerous escallation of tension... but SOMEONE thinks this serves them, as they see an escallation in DIRECT conflict to their advantage... not necessarily the police, the grunts on the line who have to dish it out and take it, but some of them sign up for this, so they quite possibly 'get something' out of it... besides pay...
so someone fights to protect the person they care about being hurt... assaulting a police officer... take a weapon someone is being beat with... ooh, touching an officers weapon, VERY serious charge...
but the firing rubber bullets and targetting journalists and other people with cameras there seemed the most telling...

there is some good info on #g20reports i'm not sure who said the police cars burning being CONFIRMED agent provocateurs... there was no link or further information i could see to verify... nor who it was that was suggesting it was not confirmed... but the context i got from others on the ground texting/twittering gave me my opinion, which I posted elsewhere:

http://inner5pac3.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-g20-tweets.html which i've been editting because facebook has been hanging/ blocking/ requesting character verification on certain topics etc etc etc... anything shared, not sub-comments in deep threads on friends posts (that are actually showing up on my facebook - just confirming that fb is doing some intelligent filtering in a subtle way that I could not tell from inside facebook alone... was using external chat and it showed up a little more clearly... kind of to be expected based on their funding and all that, but without feedback its easy to lose site of how ... you are being played, or led... every time i question agent provocateurs, or like... can this be real? escalating violence so they can beat it down? i just go back to the montebello incident, where NONVIOLENT protesters outed the agent provocateurs - no one there knew them, and they were wearing special issue boots, same as cops... that was fortunately picked up on camera... and the police later admitted it...not sure if they admitted the number... there is deep cover, which may or may not actually be police agents (other orgs), than there's just folk who show up for the protest basically... and stuff in between.

Toronto police were protesting about being corporatized a few years back... basically turned into little more than a private security force... don't know how that has really changed the force, although there have been some brutality and killings i don't know that much about there...

anyways, i can't rule out fighting and violence as necessary, sometimes... but I'd like to be sure I'm fighting for the right things... protecting the right people...
that whatever damage I cause will be outweighed by the good it will do...

sometimes this is in fact hard to ascertain... except taking someone's word for it.
Or deciding for yourself.

I try to choose the latter... but you can't know everything for yourself...

The best i've been able to come up with, is trying to learn how to see what is said and unsaid, read between the lines, by understanding the people and their motivations... and listening to people I trust, with more history and context to the situation... taking away context is an easy way to be able to skew stories, mislead people... short snippets, true, mostly true, or entirely false, are harder to penetrate, question, etc... ie what is not said can almost be said to be the lie... or in court they say, the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth... meaning to hold back info that is important, maybe crucial, can be considered a lie in this context.

But lying is not illegal (unless you sign an affidavit or in particular circumstances - parliament's literal translation is interesting) and the news, at least in the USA, is not required to be factual... google fox news, monsanto, court or something... it was in the Canadian documentary 'the corporation' (the program from which they got the money to make this since being cut by the Harper gov't) basically relates it... its on google video and youtube, or was once anyways... youtomb if you want to see it still...

hope you don't mind me jumping in on your forums...

I'm not in the military, just got here from a search and thought I would be a little devil's advocate and see if some lies and some truth got stirred up and maybe we would both end up seeing some things we didn't before.

I have friends at the protest... hoping they are well. It gets frustrating trying to make non-violent change, when you can see all these instruments for supposed good, ngo's, mainstream media, getting coopted and people in despair...

but if you can sight it, you can fight it... when the curtains come down, you can see how sad the puppetmasters are... and so can everyone else... and people can start ignoring them and their idiocy, and finding REAL solutions, etc.

I guess I'm fishing for people who still give a dam.

To me its tiring, the whole 'gladitorial arena', where someone up high picks two people and says fight... would rather climb the stands and pull them into the pit and give them a chance to try giving orders then. That is to say, I know police officers who give a dam, etc, and have read about soldiers killing themselves because they signed up to make things better, not watch little kids get raped in afganistan with their intestines hanging out, or women and children being tortured in iraq, 'maybe' to make someone talk, if they actually did anything... while say, i was told to guard an oil pipeline as top priority, or patrol mined roads, while blackw@ter and haliburton are getting payed 10 times as much, and raping their own civilians working there in the company, and the state department not being willing to prosecute... and all these women thinking they are isolated incidents... some military people do bad shit, don't get me wrong... but apparently for jobs where people have to do really bad stuff, but won't sacrifice themselves... they higher mercs and 'security' folk.

They can stratify different levels of cooperation, for different levels of dirty job, ie |v|kultr@ and m0n@rch , ... as long as your neighbour thinks they are doing the right thing/ they will get something good out of it, they will spy on each other, etc.

The earthquake may have been a warning to the people who know about those weapons.
h@@rp history channel documentary weather anyways that should be enough. swallow whichever of the pills you can with your rational mind, where you're at now: there is enough of the very obvious, easy to find and understand that you don't need to delve that deep into the shadows... just see things in context, know who is saying what, and know that they are lying, even if you don't know, yet, what the truth is...

Find a few people you can trust.
This might be a great place to start
(people you fight together with, and would die to protect, etc)

good luck. I hope whichever side we all end up fighting on, it is the right side; that whereever possible, we fight using moral means; with worthwhile goals. reality will take its toll, but truth in the heart and the spirit will find ways to change reality, if we will let it.

just cuz i'm not sure i will get to post again... here is a little quote...

violent revolution is not revolutionary enough
we change the rulers, but not the rules
the ends, but not the means
Satygraha - truth force, is also a powerful weapon.


namaste

ok and a prayer:
i wish to love myself
stay in truth
fight with love

(love myself, because i cannot love others until i do)
(stay in truth, because my delusions and rationalizations allow me to do things i would not, and help me to do what i must)
(fight with love, because what is the point, otherwise? everything in existence is precious, exists for a reason, even pain and sorrow we cannot understand; accepting pain as a choice, through this will to protect others and endure, I will use this alchemy to transform the pain and sorrow I suffer into medicine for all those that would come after who would suffer the same.)


thanks for enduring that long rant 

paranoia aside about certain topics in this, looks like i was long writing the post and was auto-logged out when i tried to post, not someone 'watching me post and deciding not to allow it' heheheh
not this time i guess 


			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Although we would never do it, we could solve things in three words: "shoot to kill."
> 
> Of course, that could make things immeasurably worse.


----------



## Michael OLeary

maikeru333

Try writing with some concern for reader comprehension, capitalization and structure,  You text is unreadable and you are not making any clear points.  Look around, you will find that we don't usually include stream of consciousness ramblings in our discussions. As it stands, you post is barely indistinguishable from spam.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## 1feral1

... Found this youtube link WRT the Summit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFzQGOrmn_E&NR=1

Very unique


----------



## Michael OLeary

I have just removed two posts by members espousing use of lethal force as preemptive "solutions".  Keep the discussion on topic or it will be locked overnight.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## 57Chevy

maikeru333 
                 Is the rant above a copy of what you wrote on facebook or twitter and you found out
too late that it was all blocked out? Somehow it seems to look that way. I get alot of scammer
emails that are written in a very similar fashion. Especially with that added line that just seems to come right out of the blue.
Well, back to the subject matter.
I think it's a real shame to see what these simpletons do to get their FFs on youtube. Watching the
news coverage and seeing all the protesters walking around with their cellphones trying to get a short
video of some police brutality to post on the web. I wonder what they do when they see one of their friends throw a brick at a police officer, or torch a cop car. Do they rush to post those things? I guess not. I even notice the disgust in the faces of the anchorman on TV, and some of the more intelligent
protestors. I am truly discusted by the actions of these hooligans, and I hope that those arrested  pay their due portion of the enormous costs of security. Shame on you.......fools.
I   the security personnel for a job well done, and keep up the good work. :yellow:


----------



## R.I.S.K.

not sure if this has been posted yet. But here are some excellent pictures I found on the CBC's Twitter account

http://ryandury.com/G20-Summit-2010-Toronto.php


----------



## The Bread Guy

What the protesters say:


> ....  let us creatively build the world we wish to live in. A world with self-determination for indigenous peoples; climate and environmental justice; income equity and community control over resources; migrant justice and an end to war and occupation; gender justice, queer and disAbility rights ....



What the world sees:

*Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty:  "G20 Protests Turn Violent"

Deutsche Welle:  "Protesters, police clash as G-20 kicks off"

Euronews:  "Violent anti-G20 summit protests in Canada"

Associated Press:  "Vandals mar summit protests in Toronto"

Al Jazeera:  "Violence mars G20 protests"

Reuters:  "G20 protesters, riot police face off in Toronto"*

Yup, that "make the world a better place" message sure is coming through there.

Meanwhile,
"Police arrest more than 400 after violent G20 riots"


----------



## The Bread Guy

Keep this in mind if you're reading about Canada's G8/G20 summits in the UK Guardian - this from the _Globe & Mail_ (highlights mine):


> Jesse Rosenfeld, a Canadian journalist reporting on the G20 for the Guardian newspaper, has been arrested and possibly beaten, his friends and father say.
> 
> His girlfriend, Carmelle Wolfson, called Mr. Rosenfeld late Saturday night, only to have him tell her he was in police custody at the Novotel, where dozens of protesters were arrested en masse after a protracted sit-in.
> 
> “He said, ‘The cops are telling me that they’re going to arrest me. I’ve told them that I’m a journalist, but they’re not recognizing my press badge and they’re telling me that they’re going to arrest me,'” she said.
> 
> “Then he told me to get on the phone with his editor.”
> 
> *Mr. Rosenfeld, a Canadian activist journalist based in Tel Aviv and Jaffa in Israel, was in Canada for the summer and on assignment from Britain's Guardian to cover the G20, Ms. Wolfson said. He was also helping to organize the summit’s alternative media co-op, whose coverage has been sympathetic to protests.
> 
> He hadn't received official media accreditation, despite applying for it long ago and making repeated inquiries, Ms. Wolfson said. When he was swept up in the melee at the Novotel protest, police didn’t recognize his alternate media badge* ....



Hmmmm, do you think his work in giving the protesters an alternate media venue MAY have affected his coverage for the Guardian?  I'm sure he was _just_ as objective as all the other reporters.  I'm also sure that the protesters would have just as vocally advocated for the rights of a reporter who, say, did consulting work with the Toronto Police Service for the summit, right?


----------



## mariomike

When I read that the ISU selected Queen's Park as the Designated Speech Area ( after first attempting to locate it in the Trinity- Bellwoods neighbourhood ), I remembered the riot at Queen's Park ten years ago.    
Molotov cocktails, bricks, and pop cans filled with rocks were thrown at Metro police. There was about 60 people injured. Almost half of the injured were Police Officers. Ten police horses were also injured. ( At least one of the horses, "Stormy", was stabbed. ) 

T-EMS reports 3 injuries ( last I heard ) at G20. 
Credit goes to the ISU for keeping casualties to a minimum. 

Modify to add:
This is a video of the riot at Queen's Park ten years ago.
( Viewer discretion is advised. )
The action starts around the 1:20 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jKn3HJ8go8

Although largely forgotten by many, the mayor mentioned it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest total "guest" count from the Canadian Press - +500:


> Police are raiding a building on the University of Toronto campus.
> 
> At least 50 people, not believed to be students, have been arrested and charges are pending.
> 
> A spokesman for the Integrated Security Unit says officers have found a cache of "street-type weaponry" such as bricks.
> 
> Dozens of officers were combing bushes and garbage cans, collecting articles of black clothing
> 
> A G20 demonstration turned violent Satuday when a peaceful protest was infiltrated by anarchists who deployed the so-called Black Bloc tactic.
> 
> The latest arrests brings the number of people in detention to more than 500.


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Keep this in mind if you're reading about Canada's G8/G20 summits in the UK Guardian - this from the _Globe & Mail_ (highlights mine):
> Hmmmm, do you think his work in giving the protesters an alternate media venue MAY have affected his coverage for the Guardian?  I'm sure he was _just_ as objective as all the other reporters.  I'm also sure that the protesters would have just as vocally advocated for the rights of a reporter who, say, did consulting work with the Toronto Police Service for the summit, right?


Police didn't recognize his 'alternate" media badge?  Shocking!  I wonder if the police will also not recognize alternate drivers licenses?   ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Wait, wait, wait, again, I've misunderstood.  Those flaming police cars?  This from Judy Rebick:  THE COPS LET IT HAPPEN TO GET VIOLENT PR! (highlights mine)


> .... Christopher Watt was there when the first police car was torched, "The officers clustered and formed a line. A second picket of officers lined up behind them, facing the crowd where I stood. They started to move, but they weren't clearing the street; they were clearing out and abandoning two police cars, including the one with the shattered windshield...
> 
> In moments like this, someone needs to make a decision. This time it was a man in dreadlocks and no shirt, red paint all over his torso. He moved towards the police car, grabbing the squawking police radio...
> 
> "Following the lead of the dreadlocked man, someone else pulled what looked like a leather folder from inside the car and spread its contents over the trunk. A kid wearing sunglasses, his face covered by a scarf, inspected the paperwork. Soon after, the squad cars would be on fire. (The gas cap appeared to have been removed from one of them even before the crowd moved in.)"
> 
> It was a perfect storm. A massive police presence who were primed for "dangerous anarchists" after a week of peaceful protests. No more than one hundred, probably fewer, young men who think violent confrontations with the police will create a radicalization and expose the violence of the state. A new generation of young people who are becoming activists believing they live in a democratic society and are shocked by the degree of police violence arrayed to stop them.
> 
> But *it is the police that let the handful of people using Black Bloc tactics run wild and then used the burning police cars and violent images as a media campaign to convince the people of Toronto that the cost and the excessive police presence was necessary. They knew what would happen and they knew how it would happen. It is the police that bear the responsibility for what happened last night. They were responsible for keeping the peace and they failed to do it* ....



The police should have done something to stop an attack on one of their vehicles or officers?  If that's the case, does Judy mean the cops did the right thing protecting themselves and their vehicle in this case?  Interesting "flexibility", folks.


----------



## Michael OLeary

It's all a matter of flexible perspective.  A certain focus on a single incidence of "agents provocateur" is being used to redefine every violent action as obviously instigated by the police.  While past actions by the "black block" were merely isolated incidents and should never have been used to justify such comprehensive and expensive security measures.    :


----------



## vonGarvin

The ridonkulousness* of it all continues, I see.  Yesterday, in one breath, some reporter asked the Chief "why there were so many cops" yet "there weren't enough cops" to stop the car from burning.

So, in the greatest traditions of the Left, 'blame' belongs to "The Man", not to the punk who lights up a police car.  Typical.  


(*It was so ridiculous, it merited a made-up word)


----------



## tomahawk6

Mark Steyn's take on the police response.



> “I may have to revise my old line about the British police being "the most monumentally useless in the developed world". For the G20 summit, the Toronto coppers ordered up a ton of new body armor, weaponry, gas masks, etc - and then stood around in their state-of-the-art riot gear watching as a bunch of middle-class "anarchists" trashed the city. Streetcars were left abandoned, and even police cruisers were seized, vandalized and burned. But hey, it's the taxpayers who pay for 'em, right? And I'm sure they'll have replacements ready when Constable Plod needs to drive over to Tim Hortons for his mid-morning Boston Creme.
> ”


----------



## The Bread Guy

Good point.  In fact, it seems HUGELY flexible - given that 20 hours ago, the message was "the police DID IT", and now, it's "someone else seems to have done it, but the police DIDN'T STOP IT."

As for Mark Steyn, maybe he'd like to take the training and show us how much of a better job he does.   :


----------



## 57Chevy

That's only a car.......let it burn, and that is exactly the right thing to do.
Thinking of the disgust of many of the peaceful protesters that I have noticed, I think it stands to reason that they just might retaliate against the hooligans. Peaceful protesters are getting more
angry toward them because they are disrupting the true democratic nature of what a peaceful
protest is supposed to be all about. I'm wondering what the security forces would do in that case?
And more so, how quickly those hooligans would be crying for police protection. How much of that would be found on youtube ?


----------



## vonGarvin

These arm-chair quarterbacks are pissing me off.  "Too many cops!"  "Too much security!"  "Where were the police?"  DAMMIT.  Whom do they call when their shit gets stolen?  It sure ain't OXFAM or QUEERS FOR YEARS or whatever other group you can think of: it's the police.
They fart in our faces when it comes to law and order:





They oppose your right to work and will attempt to destroy your livelihood:




They oppose freedom of the press and will attempt to limit their powers:




And will attempt to destroy their ability to report the news:




They advocate terrorism:




We got pictures of some of them:




And semi-pictures of others:




And still others are models for tolerance and acceptance.  (And we see another partial face)





They wonder why things like this happen to them:





 (I kind of wish that the weird dude Mellian were still here to hear his side of how "the Man" did all of this)

Anyway, well done to all the police services in Toronto!


----------



## GAP

Compared to yesterday when they simply held off allowing peacefull protest, until the idiots started, today, they're kicking *** and taking names (and prisoners).....nice to see...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Here's the Sun's roundup of stories:

http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/


----------



## 57Chevy

Looks like rain and thunder in the forcast for TO tonight

check here: http://www.theweathernetwork.com/hourlyfx/caon0696/hourlytable/1

also: Tornado watch issued in southwestern Ontario

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Tornado+watch+issued+southwestern+Ontario/3208538/story.html

           (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## ArmyRick

Hmmmm, I like the kangaroo court mentality I see here

1. Portestors get out of hand, destroy property (government or private, it does not matter), the police then enforce the law which is what they do, then they are accussed of "POLICE BRUTALITY" or

2. Protestors get out of hand, destroy property but do not threaten lives, so police prioritize when they will act and when they will remain watching, in this case they let it go (should have made the damn hooligans happy?) but now they are "NOT ACTING TO STOP THE VANDALISM".

They are not allowed to win. I am glad knobs that say these things are not actually in power (Its they're way no matter what). Could you imagine one of these circus freaks (by some miracle) got elected? We would be in trouble.

I also like the comment I heard that the police showed up bearing fire arms (guns was the word). Brillant, I guess the clown who made that statement on TV did not notice that every time you see a cop, summit or not, they are armed!

The biggest problem is that people are not facing the truth. The protestors are out there JUST to have a wild *ss time, pure and simple. They do not give a rats **** about what the actual cause is.

Too many people in our society are excuse makers "Its not my fault because....blah, blah, blah"

Whatever happened to integrity? Honour? Humility? Politeness? Oh wait, its easier to roll a joint, smoke it, be a knob in life and blame everybody else.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Once the dust settles I'd like to see the government publish a few sets of figures:

Firstly, the Summit costs.  Separate out the fixed costs (wages, etc.) that were going to be paid from one government budget or another (to Canadians, by the way), then examine the remainder.  How much was paid to Canadian providers of goods and service, from the construction of the "lake" to the hotels and meals required? How much money was pumped directly into the Canadian economy because the Summit was held in Toronto?

Secondly, what's the value of the destroyed property and disrupted businesses caused by the protesters?  How much money did they, by their threats, presence and actions, remove from (or prevent the spending of within) the Canadian economy during the Summit?


----------



## 1feral1

Good post AR, you speak for the majority of good tax paying law abiding respectful citizens (AKA normal people)  ;D .


----------



## hold_fast

I just watched a video on YouTube of Sgt. MacNeil's arrival in Toronto... made me sick to my stomach to hear a riotous protest in the background while the police that could be spared (some of them seem to have just stepped away from duty, still fully geared up) salute or shake the hands of MacNeil's comrades.

While not intentional, that still sickens me.


----------



## tomahawk6

I wonder why these foreign protestors are allowed to enter any country. They have to have police records for this type of hooliganism.


----------



## George Wallace

These people really are lacking in grey matter between their ears.  A person by the handle of rxsheepxr has some really good 'demotivational posters' made up.  Pause to reflect.......


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> These people really are lacking in grey matter between their ears.  A person by the handle of rxsheepxr has some really good 'demotivational posters' made up.  Pause to reflect.......


:rofl:
If you don't send me a large copy of that, I'm issuing you five days of hate!  That is awesome!


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> These people really are lacking in grey matter between their ears.  A person by the handle of rxsheepxr has some really good 'demotivational posters' made up.  Pause to reflect.......


Great resource - here's a couple of more.


----------



## hold_fast

Oh damn, I lost it at the Twilight one.  :rofl:


----------



## Jarnhamar

I love these people.
Of course anyone who throws a brick smashes a window or lights something on fire is probably a cop in disguise.

For all the security I was hoping the police would be a little more agressive. The black bloc wanted a fight sweet jesus give them one. 300 Style with big spartan kicks. Maybe switch those dinky plastic shields with some heavy duty bronze ones. 7 foot long sticks with a taser prod at the end of it. Be like Tokyo, send the riot police to a martial arts school for a year- hell we send people to "french school" for a year in the CF.

people are bitching "But you left a cop car out as bait!" ya and you took the bait idiots. I hope those 500+ arrested people aren't just released after this, I hope their dragged through the justice system.


----------



## George Wallace

Technoviking said:
			
		

> These arm-chair quarterbacks are pissing me off.  "Too many cops!"  "Too much security!"  "Where were the police?"  DAMMIT.  Whom do they call when their crap gets stolen?  It sure ain't OXFAM or QUEERS FOR YEARS or whatever other group you can think of: it's the police.
> 
> They oppose your right to work and will attempt to destroy your livelihood:



And they can't even match their socks while doing so.


----------



## 1feral1

.....and they will discuss their deeds over a Big Mac or Whopper, both with Coke, or maybe even a over Starbucks coffee.  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

The rain is beginning.  Thundershowers forcast for the next four to six hours.  May even have a Tornado warning.


----------



## OldSolduer

These people ae nothing but terrorists.....poor ones, but anyone who deliberately destroys public property (police cars) or private property (Starbucks,,,and that's what grieves me the most) for political reasons is a terrorist. These people are terrorists, and it will only take one charismatic leader to propel them to murder.


----------



## 57Chevy

Seems they don't like Petamocto........I mean starbucks ;D


----------



## vonGarvin

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Seems they don't like Petamocto........I mean starbucks ;D


:rofl:


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And they can't even match their socks while doing so.



But if they had matched socks they wouldn't be rebels.


----------



## George Wallace

CTV's Photo Gallery http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/g20-g8-toronto-ctv-reporters-20100626/index_.html


----------



## hold_fast

George Wallace said:
			
		

> CTV's Photo Gallery http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/g20-g8-toronto-ctv-reporters-20100626/index_.html



CTV also posted a long video of the idiots running around terrorizing, if you feel like getting angry:
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/the-mayhem/#clip318869


----------



## vonGarvin

I can't watch it, Hold_fast, but thanks. I was plenty angry watching it last night.

:rage:


----------



## 1feral1

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> These people ae nothing but terrorists.....poor ones, but anyone who deliberately destroys public property (police cars) or private property (Starbucks,,,and that's what grieves me the most) for political reasons is a terrorist.



Its the franchisees who'll cop the bills to the damage of their shops via insurance. Lets hope the police are viewing video to assist in identifying these cowards (and cowards they are). If the 'resistance' (what a joke) thinks they are attacking the big corporate 'satan', they are only hurting honest private citizens, who operate a business to pay the bills. Thats something called a job and an income, and these are things these losers don't have or want for that matter.

The police got to 'turn it up' and start teaching these idiots some real tolerance.


----------



## armyvern

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> But if they had matched socks they wouldn't be rebels.



Too bad that top secret weapon Jimmy Cox wasn't around to sort them out - they'd have been gripped in no time.


----------



## George Wallace

More Photos:

The National Post:  http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/photos/gallery/index.html?id=3201093&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

CBC Photo Galleries: http://www.cbc.ca/photogallery/news/3621/
                                  http://www.cbc.ca/photogallery/news/3623/


CTV Photos:            http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/g8-g20-toronto-violent-protests-20100626/index_.html
                                http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/g20-g8-bike-rally-toronto-100627/index_.html 
                                http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/protest-toronto-100625/index_.html


The Toronto Star Photo Galleries:  http://www.thestar.com/photos

The Toronto Sun Photo Galleries:   http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/27/14535161.html
                                                       http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/25/14518666.html
                                                       http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/26/14528011.html
                                                       http://new.torontosun.com/photos/
                                                       http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/06/25/14515291.html 

The Globe and Mail Photo Galleries:   http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/video/

The Montreal Gazette Photo Gallery:   http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Gallery+Toronto/3206783/story.html

Global TV Photo Gallery:                       http://news.globaltv.com/world/Photo+Gallery/3182345/story.html

24CP TV:                                              http://www.cp24.com/


----------



## George Wallace

ALRIGHT!  RIGHT ON!  Rex Murphy's take on the Black Bloc tactics and the twits who carried it out:



Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*Rex Murphy protests the Black Bloc*
June 27, 2010 9:51 PM 



By Rex Murphy 

LINK 

Rex Murphy Point of View

June 27, 2010 

No decent, civilized city - and Toronto is both - should be held hostage by the actions of a set of ferociously insolent thugs and vandals.

Which is what happened here yesterday afternoon, and in fits and starts last night and early morning.  A band of black-masked, malicious, and potentially dangerous ne'er-do-wells did their radical best to get a racket going:  torched a couple of police cars, did their petty "let's smash the windows" trick, insulted the police, intimidated spectators, and tried to order the press around. 

The world has seen this knob of losers and self-nominated 'anarchists' before; they gave themselves the comic-book brand "Black Bloc" long ago, and they have been the noisome tail to the dog of every high order world meeting for well over a decade.  There was even a flash of them smacking downtown windows at the recent Olympics, you'll recall, until everyone turned on them for their vandalism and cowardice, and they vanished.  

People also remember the havoc, damage and ugliness they kicked up in Seattle; remember, too, Genoa, Madrid, and Quebec City.  It was always too much to hope that Toronto would be spared their attention.

For this set of malcontents - they're not protesters - protesters have moral standing - the deliberations of heads of government in a time of crisis is merely a background stage on which to engage in violent and arrogant abuse of the idea of civic action.  They degrade protest.

Don't buy their muddled mendacious rhetoric either.  They care as much about the general well-being of the rest of us as the stone or brick in their hand, or that hammer cares for the well-being of the Starbucks window.

Some people are saying that Toronto shouldn't have hosted the summit because this crowd would cause trouble. Absolutely wrong.  Cities and governments don't choose to do, or not to do things because a couple of hundred hit-and-run artists put up a smarmy threat of "direct action". The splinter doesn't direct the oak. 

Yesterday's mini-riot had one irony that will be very hard for some to digest.  It gives at least partial cover for the extraordinary one billion dollar cost that went into security for the G20 meeting here. The Black Bloc, and they will love this, is Stephen Harper's best political friend today. 

For very long, the pseudo-anarchists have been coddled and played with.  The costs of that approach showed up in the images of Toronto broadcast all over the world yesterday.  "Toronto the mild" looking like "Toronto the war zone".  In so far as it is at all possible, those responsible for criminal activity and damage to property should be arrested and charged.  They should be banned for good from any like event in future.  Penalties should be heavy.

Toronto is a decent, civilized city.  Hooligans and thugs should never be allowed to twist those virtues into a shield for their own ignorant and dangerous ends.

For The National, I'm Rex Murphy


LINK


----------



## OldSolduer

My sanity has returned.

Arrest the thugs, prosecute the Canadian thugs and toss them in jail. I personally know some other ne'er do wells (they don't riot) who would love to have a skinny white kid as a cell mate.... ;D

As for the foreign thugs, immediate deportation to their home country.


----------



## mariomike

When they informed us that G20 was coming to town, I remembered the Queen's Park Riot of 2000.
So did the Mayor, when he mentioned it during the Saturday riot. 
Casualties were kept to a minimum this time.

I added a Youtube video of the Queen's Park Riot in 2000 to Reply #422. 
In case anyone did not see it, or perhaps is interested in seeing it:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-949688.html#msg949688

The action starts around the 1:20 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jKn3HJ8go8


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> My sanity has returned.
> 
> Arrest the thugs, prosecute the Canadian thugs and toss them in jail. I personally know some other ne'er do wells (they don't riot) who would love to have a skinny white kid as a cell mate.... ;D
> 
> As for the foreign thugs, immediate deportation to their home country.



Put them on the  terrorist 'no fly list' so they can never (hopefully) board a plane again.


----------



## The Bread Guy

That didn't take long.....


> As the Annual General Meeting of Amnesty International Canada (English branch) concluded (Sunday) in Toronto, Amnesty International members from across the country expressed their very deep concern that important rights associated with peaceful protest have suffered considerably in the city over the weekend.
> 
> In connection with the G20 leaders summit, the heavy police and security presence that has permeated the city for several days, as well as acts of vandalism and other violence by numbers of individuals, have contributed to an atmosphere of apprehension and fearfulness that has led many individuals to refrain from or limit their involvement in peaceful demonstrations and other activities.
> 
> (....)
> 
> We unequivocally condemn the acts of vandalism and violence that have been carried out by numbers of individuals, particularly during the evening of June 26. Such acts are criminal and undermine the safety of the many thousands of individuals involved in peaceful protest. We recognize that police have a responsibility to respond to such actions, to protect public safety, prevent damage to property, and ensure the safety of leaders and other officials attending the G20 Summit.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Lessons must be learned from these events. We call on the Canadian government and the government of the province of Ontario to cooperate in launching an independent review of the security measures that were put in place for the G8 and G20 Summits. The review should include opportunities for public input and the results should be released to the public. Among other issues, the review should consider:
> 
> •The impact of security measures, including decisions about the location and venues for the two summits, on the protection of human rights, including the freedoms of expression and assembly.
> 
> • The ways in which police operations and the use of legal provisions such as the Public Works Protection Act have impacted the rights of the many thousands of people living, working and operating businesses within and near the G20 security zone ....



More here.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> That didn't take long.....
> 
> 
> 
> As the Annual General Meeting of Amnesty International Canada (English branch) concluded (Sunday) in Toronto, Amnesty International members from across the country expressed their very deep concern that important rights associated with peaceful protest have suffered considerably in the city over the weekend.
Click to expand...

Given the semblance of balance amongst the comments on the CBC website (it's normally populated by the rabidly 'everything's-Harper's-fault' tinfoil hat brigade) I think maybe the protesters pissed off more people than they convinced about the significance of their _cause de jour_.

The one comment I did like regarding Amnesty's "very deep concern"  :  :


> How many people have been raped and murdered in Darfur today, Amnesty International? why don't you focus on actual human rights violations that are occurring RIGHT NOW instead of taking potshots at liberal-democratic first-world nations?


----------



## OldSolduer

Amnesty International is a farce. Its as bad as the UN.

They won't hold any dictator's feet to the fire.....I wonder why? Maybe we need to follow the money trail......just saying....

Its about time someone held Amnesty Interational's feet to the fire....

On the plus side, I'm glad the G8/G20 is over. 
Besides, those anarchist b@sta@ds stole our two fallen comrades' time.


----------



## captloadie

I almost wish our favorite anarchist hadn't been booted before all this hit the fan. I'd love to hear her spin this as the police, governments, etc fault. Maybe she has another forumn/blog we could cross post from for a good laugh.  >


----------



## spear

I just heard it this morning news from AM680, that most of the protesters who got arrested were complaining about the cage-like imprisonments they got.... What the heck they were expecting about being imprisoned, tossing them up and down on a living room-like place for crooks/criminals like them?  If you violated any laws and were deemed as a criminal by a judge then they should be treated like one, as in no special treatments.  I mean if you go out there and expressed your disappointments, then protest peacefully, as in no window smashings, no torching police cruisers, and no throwing rocks against the cops.


----------



## 2010newbie

I'm sure the argument will be that they were protesting peacefully. I've been discussing this with a few people in the last few days and I'm surprised how many people don't see the connection that even if you aren't throwing rocks or causing the disturbance, if you are verbally promoting/supporting their actions through saying nothing or cheering them on, you are an accomplice. The unedited CTV video footage from Yonge Street that was posted earlier in this thread really made me sick. a couple good citizens came in to stop people from causing the damage only to be heckled by the crowd (most of which I'm sure would say they were peaceful protesters). It is utterly disgusting. In the video it was only a handful of people actually causing the destruction in a crowd of hundreds. If the crowd stopped supporting and chastised them instead, I'm sure the destruction would have come to a halt much sooner.


----------



## The Bread Guy

2010newbie said:
			
		

> .... I'm surprised how many people don't see the connection that even if you aren't throwing rocks or causing the disturbance, if you are verbally promoting/supporting their actions through saying nothing or cheering them on, you are an accomplice ....



How about another relationship-linkage people don't seem to be seeing:  Police actions on Sunday=no vandalism on Sunday ?  Co-incidence?

But there's always a "can't win" excuse isn't there?  Vandalism of public and private property on Saturday? "It's the cops' fault for not stopping it" or "the cops did it"  So, police prevent vandalism of public and private property on Sunday?  "Police brutality" and "time to look into this"



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> .... a couple good citizens came in to stop people from causing the damage only to be heckled by the crowd (most of which I'm sure would say they were peaceful protesters). It is utterly disgusting. In the video it was only a handful of people actually causing the destruction in a crowd of hundreds. If the crowd stopped supporting and chastised them instead, I'm sure the destruction would have come to a halt much sooner ....


Ah, the "diversity of tactics" horse-hockey.  One would think if Olivia Chow (eventually) got it (too late to make a difference) ....
The peaceful rally has finished. The violence has nothing to do with it. Sad "Make Poverty History" message lost.  
.... someone else in the protest movement would.


----------



## Danjanou

Well the grassy knoll brigade obviously see it as the Police at fault. :

http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/public-inquiry-g-20-2010-toronto-policing-clearly-urgently-required

http://rabble.ca/babble/introductions/debate-protest-tactics-what-works-what-doesnt

http://rabble.ca/babble/activism/g-20-protests-turn-violent

According to the "progressives" the cops broke the windows and set the cars on fire, but we still need to sue them for failing to protect property.



> It does sound like the cops are pulling an insurance scam - set up used police cars to be thrashed by the crowd, collect insurance for completely new vehicles. I hope CBC and others investigate this, but I somehow doubt they will



They also suck at aircraft recognition



> There was a large military aircraft orbiting downtown Toronto for most of today. It appeared to be an electronic intelligence (ELINT) or surveillance version of the C-130 Hercules as it looked to have a long tail boom like those normally seen on submarine hunting aircraft like this P3 Orion, which is weird as a boom like that normally houses a magnetic anomaly detector.
> 
> The Canadian forces have Hercs, but I've never heard of them having any fitted for ELINT, and one news report identified the plane as belonging to the US. I'm wondering if it was being used to intercept cell phone calls and text messages and track individuals' movements.



My personal favourite quote is from a veteran of the Quebec City riots offering advice to Toronto protesters



> Cappuccino or a light anti-pasta were very popular after a good gassing. Many grabbed their credit cards from waist pouches and headed into any of the dozens of open vegetarian cafes for a light lunch after first cleaning up in the ladies or mens room to wipe off a bucket of snot. All the local businesses were open and catering to the riot tourist trade. After a fantastic Quebecois repast everyone would head right back into the corrosive clouds for the business at hand – rioting. It was actually a very festive atmosphere. Quebec City can be a great tourist town.



http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-news-features/g-20-summit-toronto-and-tear-gas-summit-quebec-city


----------



## 2010newbie

Danjanou said:
			
		

> They also suck at aircraft recognition
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was a large military aircraft orbiting downtown Toronto for most of today. It appeared to be an electronic intelligence (ELINT) or surveillance version of the C-130 Hercules as it looked to have a long tail boom like those normally seen on submarine hunting aircraft like this P3 Orion, which is weird as a boom like that normally houses a magnetic anomaly detector.
> 
> The Canadian forces have Hercs, but I've never heard of them having any fitted for ELINT, and one news report identified the plane as belonging to the US. I'm wondering if it was being used to intercept cell phone calls and text messages and track individuals' movements.
Click to expand...


I was out of the country this past weekend so I don't know which aircraft they are talking about, but could this be what they're trying to describe??

http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13308/wm/pd1938023.jpg


----------



## mariomike

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Once the dust settles I'd like to see the government publish a few sets of figures:
> Firstly, the Summit costs.  Separate out the fixed costs (wages, etc.) that were going to be paid from one government budget or another (to Canadians, by the way), then examine the remainder.



Although it will likely just be a drop in the bucket when the grand total for G20 is determined ( if it truly will ever be ), the T-EMS tab is going to be high. All Paramedic vacations for the entire month of June were cancelled, or put on hold. There was a staggering amount of overtime. Ottawa sent 50 of their Paramedics to Toronto. T-EMS staffed for two cities: City of Toronto and City of G20. 
I read that G20 Pittsburgh was the biggest EMS operation in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's history.


----------



## ModlrMike

The up front costs will certainly be high, but the net effect will be to move money from one part of the Government to another. From taxes to intergovernmental transfers, a considerable amount will be recovered. In addition, a great deal of money will circulate through the Toronto economy. I wager that the total down stream, "unrecoverable" costs will be something in the region of 40% of the total.


----------



## The Bread Guy

mariomike said:
			
		

> Although it will likely just be a drop in the bucket when the grand total for G20 is determined ( if it truly will ever be ), the T-EMS tab is going to be high. All Paramedic vacations for the entire month of June were cancelled, or put on hold. There was a staggering amount of overtime.


I'm also guessing a lot of police overtime (at all levels) was racked up going into and through this, too.  If possible, it would be nice to see that broken out as well. 

And, of course, if we'd used troops to provide more up-front security, here's the messaging we'd be seeing/hearing from the protest bloc-heads.


----------



## Rifleman62

I guess the almost one billion spent by a Conservative government for the G8/20 was not worthy expenditure.  No tangable result. The media is already poo-poo the G8/20 ending statements. 

Compared to the over one billion spent by the Federal Liberals on the Gun Registry and the over one billion spent on HRDC, or by the Ontario Liberals over one billion on E-Health. 

Ever hear/read the Canadian media compare these expenditures?

Mark Holland take note.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And, of course, if we'd used troops to provide more up-front security, here's the messaging we'd be seeing/hearing from the protest bloc-heads.



Speaking only for myself, I was thankful to see them during the snow storm. They saved my partner and me from possible heart-attacks when they helped us carry a stretcher up a snow-covered street. They were glad to help us.
Would I have been offended, as a concerned citizen / pensioner living in Toronto, to have again seen the military working downtown with our Emergency Services? Heck no! 

"Don’t even try to hold international political conferences with this kind of explosive ideological charge in the heart of a major urban centre."

"The idea that this was an effective way to show off Toronto to foreign guests is bewilderingly stupid." 

"They took our city to hold a meeting and bullied us out of the core, damaging the commerce of thousands of merchants and inconveniencing the entire population. Then, they failed to protect our property,":

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/829601--g20-editorial-brutal-spectacle-failed-a-city-and-its-people?bn=1

"Would the security problems have been reduced if, as Toronto Mayor David Miller had suggested, the main meeting place had been at Exhibition Place instead of the convention centre (Harper's choice)?":
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/829515--call-inquiry-on-g20-mayhem

National Post:
"But seeing my proud city on her knees, knowing that the photos sent around the world show Toronto not at her finest, but rather in flames and shards of glass, I could feel nothing but sadness.":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/06/28/sadness-remains-on-torontos-streets/


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I'm also guessing a lot of police overtime (at all levels) was racked up going into and through this, too.  If possible, it would be nice to see that broken out as well.



Let's see.  Police from across Canada working 17 to 18 hour shifts in TO collecting overtime.  Police at those members' Forces back home covering their shifts working on over time.  You can bet that quite a few, perhaps twice as many officers as employed in TO, are collecting six figure pay checks this year (don't forget the Olympics, and now the Royal Visit).


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let's see.  Police from across Canada working 17 to 18 hour shifts in TO collecting overtime.  Police at those members' Forces back home covering their shifts working on over time.  You can bet that quite a few, perhaps twice as many officers as employed in TO, are collecting six figure pay checks this year (don't forget the Olympics, and now the Royal Visit).



Also Gay Pride, which I think is next week-end. From what I understand, it is the biggest such event in the world. Then Caribana, another big event in the city. 
I think Toronto is the most ( or one of the most ) multi-cultural cities in the world, so World Cup celebrations are always major events.
There is so much going on now. The Santa Claus Parade used to be the big event in this town!


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let's see.  Police from across Canada working 17 to 18 hour shifts in TO collecting overtime.  Police at those members' Forces back home covering their shifts working on over time.  You can bet that quite a few, perhaps twice as many officers as employed in TO, are collecting six figure pay checks this year (don't forget the Olympics, and now the Royal Visit).


Given that, we can expect to see an even longer than usual "Sunshine List", at least for police officers in Ontario, next year.


----------



## Larkvall

One of the things that really baffled me was yesterday's bike rally. Yes they were peaceful, but for crying out why would they protest during the G20 as their cause is solely local? Why make a bad traffic situation worse? They didn't gain any friends. 

I also got a kick out of those guys complaining about the makeshift detention centre. They should have had some fun (scared straight style) and brought in some prisoners from high security prisons to keep the protesters company.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From g20.torontomobilize.org:


> JAIL SOLIDARITY RALLY!  Toronto Condemns Police Violence
> 
> Monday, June 28th
> 5:30pm
> Police Headquarters, 40 College Street (at Yonge Street)
> 
> Speakers:
> Naomi Klein
> Ben Powless
> Judy Rebick
> David McNally
> Abeer Majeed
> 
> Testimonies from people who've been brutalized by police
> 
> Over the past two days, police have rounded and arrested up hundreds of people. They have been denied access to lawyers, telephones, food and water, and held in deplorable conditions in makeshift steel cages.  Many have been beaten in the streets and in their homes; shot at with rubber bullets and tear gas; some have been sent to hospital with severe injuries. Hundreds are still in custody as of Sunday night.
> 
> We need to get our people out. We need to take our city back from the armed fortress that it has been turned into.
> 
> We will let the police know that we will not tolerate the arrests, beatings and attempt to intimidate the people of Toronto. Our community stands with the people whose lives have been disrupted by the G20, and by police violence. We will demand that all those arrested be released, and released now!


----------



## vonGarvin

Just thought I'd throw a "before" and "after" _montage_ into the mix:
*Evolution of an arrest:*





*Even Before:*





*Before:*





*And after*





Now, no trumpet in the first photo, smaller fire in Police "state" car, Music Shop in background, then with trumpet (bigger fire) and then in the hands of "the man" who apparently just don't "get it, man!"


----------



## Mikhail

This disgusts me.

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/24706

By John Thompson Saturday, June 26, 2010

    





> Toronto, Ont.-Weirdness all round and I got really furious yesterday afternoon. I was attending the repatriation of Sgt James Patrick Macneil (killed last Monday in Afghanistan) by standing at the last leg for the trip from Trenton, when a motorcade from the base brings the bodies of our fallen with their families and escorts to the Coroner of Ontario.
> 
> Normally the police have a large presence in these, too, as they escort the processions and clear the way; also, Toronto Police Headquarters and the Coroner’s office are on the same block on Grosvenor, running between Yonge and Bay. I usually go up to Grosvenor and Bay and pay my respects as the hearse goes by.
> 
> Yesterday, the usual collection of Trotskyites and Anarchists with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP) and all their new chums from out of town massed at the Allan Gardens between Gerrard and Carleton, east of Jarvis. OCAP have engaged in serious goonery before over the last 20 years and attracts those who like the ‘cutting edge’ of protest. Well, actually, the heavy stick of protest is more their style—all for ‘the People’ of course, whoever they are.
> 
> The Coroner’s office is in my neighbourhood of the last nine years, and I attend almost all the repatriations. Waiting for the motorcade yesterday, I noticed a few unusual types with bikes and cellphones skinning by as the police prepared for the final arrival of Sgt Macneil, but didn’t think the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty would sink so low as to try to disrupt the repatriation of one of our war dead.
> 
> They did.
> 
> The arrival of our war dead at the Coroner’s office always begins with a 2:00 PM arrival at CFB Trenton, and the trip from the base to downtown Toronto almost invariably takes about two and half hours.
> 
> The Anarchists and Trots lunged out of Allen Gardens up on Carleton and made a fast march towards Yonge Street, getting as far as College and Yonge with baseball bats and the occasional slingshot firing ball bearings (I overheard a police radio talking about molotov cocktails, too). In short, they got within about 150 metres of the Coroner’s Office just as the motorcade was arriving. The timing was not accidental.
> 
> It was clear that a lot of the out-of town police were taking the opportunity to pay their respects for one of our war dead and their presence was heavier than usual; but in the 15 minutes before the arrival of Sgt Macneil’s body, things got confusing. Buses and vehicles for hundreds of police in riot gear were suddenly heading into the Grosvenor/Bay intersection. The cops were frantically juggling traffic space and trying to get vehicles in place right up to the last minute. About 200 cops in riot gear were martialled right from their buses just as the hearse and the cars carrying Sgt Macneil’s family went by. Within seconds of the coffin being carried into the Coroner’s office and the last of his escort and family following, the riot squad marched by on the way to fend off OCAP.
> 
> Of course, the OCAP sturmtruppen then thought they’d go “liberate” police headquarters on College between Yonge and Bay (and perhaps break a few windows there and then run through the building and get onto Grosvenor). It was touch and go for a while, with maximum disruption for commuters as more police tried to route vehicle and foot traffic away from the scene. Then, OCAP figured they were too late to disrupt proceedings, and so headed off down Yonge Street to approach the fence; before calling it a day and returning to Allan Garden.
> 
> As usual, the press haven’t noticed what was going on. Some news cameras were around, but nobody seems to have put one and two together about what OCAP was attempting to do.
> 
> The protestors don’t do anything accidentally. I’ve been spotting scouting parties for the hardcore demonstrators for three days now, and have been hearing from friends in the police and security guard companies about the stockpiling of rocks, bats and other materials here and there in downtown Toronto for just as long. The Maude Barlow and Oxfam types can talk all they like about being peaceful, but some hard-nosed demagogues and street goons are very much front and centre.


----------



## larry Strong

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd throw a "before" and "after" _montage_ into the mix:
> 
> *Before:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And after*



What a disgusting specimen of humanity


----------



## Michael OLeary

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> What a disgusting specimen of humanity



I'm sure mummy is very proud of him right now, and daddy's trying to decide whether or not to pay for a lawyer, again.   :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Mikhail said:
			
		

> This disgusts me.
> 
> http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/24706
> 
> By John Thompson Saturday, June 26, 2010



I was hoping this wouldn't happen  :rage:


----------



## TCBF

- I am a bit late to this, but one has to admire police communications strategy:

1. Allow an abandoned high-mileage cruiser to go unguarded and get set on fire.
2. Let the fire burn as a magnet for the dumber arseholes who wish to self-identify (photos above).
3. Once the photo op has run it's natural course, roll in the firetrucks and police to sum things up.
4. Having been handed free photos to justify the billion-dollar security price tag, ensure it makes the news (hopefully pushing the cops-stuff-stolen-by hooker type stories from page 3, or whatever).

- Really, you can't buy that kind of PR.

- As for the Marxists, off to the camps with them...


----------



## mariomike

"Miller Pushes For Feds To Pay For G20 Damage: Miller is arguing the G20 was Prime Minister Stephen Harper government's conference and it's the government's responsibility to compensate for damages.":
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/80031--miller-pushes-for-feds-to-pay-for-g20-damage


"The mayor defended the police actions over the week, noting the exceptional circumstances. He said the offer to host the G20 meeting at the self-contained Exhibition Place would have made a lot more sense, but Ottawa turned that suggestion down.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/28/miller-g20.html


----------



## Scott

Mikhail said:
			
		

> This disgusts me.
> 
> http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/24706
> 
> By John Thompson Saturday, June 26, 2010



Wow. Just, wow.

I know we're beyond paracowboy's old saying, but...


----------



## TCBF

Scott said:
			
		

> Wow. Just, wow.
> 
> I know we're beyond paracowboy's old saying, but...



- Why did "Kneel down and face the ditch." just pop into my head?

 8)


----------



## mariomike

Repatriation of Sgt. MacNeil: Scene at the Coroner's Office:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J9TrS7qeT8

"OCAP Demo in Toronto stalled at Yonge and College as Repatriation motorcade approaches Coroner's office on Grenville. (1 blk nrth of demo)":
http://twitter.com/dtrafford/status/17042774904

"Toronto G20 protest organized by OCAP - Part 2 - March, Standoff, and Pursuit":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT9zBoXwuMA&feature=related

"Toronto G20 protest organized by OCAP - Part 3 - Back to Carlton": 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KRKFvj7JaQ&feature=related

"R.I.P. Sgt. James Patrick MacNeil": 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH_7SU2SHZo


----------



## mariomike

"Hundreds rally outside police headquarters: At least 1,000 demonstrators have assembled in front of Toronto police headquarters at 40 College St. to rally against the police response to G20 protests.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/829854--hundreds-rally-outside-police-headquarters?bn=1

"The fire, the accused and the cop":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/829587--the-fire-the-accused-and-the-cop

“Why would you bring this terror to downtown?”:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/829584--g20-it-wasn-t-worth-it


----------



## hold_fast

I don't mean to stir up a storm, but I'll always stand by that there's two sides to every story and it's important to keep an open mind.

So, while I agree with the policing for the majority of the weekend, one event is starting to pop up across the media as questionable: when the riot police boxed in civilians/protesters on Queen and Spadina late on Sunday, with no information on why they were being boxed in or how they could get out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFpDqgztnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXNtR-a_D0

I'm guessing that it was a tense situation that the police were trying to calm and disperse people... but judging by the looks and reactions of some the police officers, there seems to be a strong lack of communication as to what exactly they're supposed to be doing. There doesn't seem to be anyone in the group who is attacking or provoking or anything of the sort. Most of the people are scared and some are crying. 

This one incident is making the most rounds, where riot police storm against the protesters/randoms just wanting to get pictures who are singing O Canada. Understandable that they were somewhat provoking police and would not leave the area - they were in the area near Queen and Spadina, at the time when people were being boxed in. You can see it happening also from one of the above videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Heb9BXjYcII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkwazCJG0vc

In an effort to promote discussion, I wanted to bring these up. I haven't come to any conclusions, but it looks pretty questionable.


----------



## mariomike

"OTTAWA - 
Some mayors suggest events like the G8 and G20 summits should never again be held in the downtown core of a city.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100628/national/g8_g20_mayors


----------



## vonGarvin

Well, mayors, it looks like you're showing your yellow stripes.  Cowards.  

As for that crowd dispersed following "O Canada", please note them starting to sit in the street: message: we're not leaving.  Sitting en masse in a street without licence, is, I believe, not considered "lawful assembly".  Some events, such as Carabana or the Pride March, are well-planned in advance, with permission to have certain streets closed.  This was not.  The song ends, and the message is clear: "This is a democracy.  If you use mob-rules, we will use mob dispersion tactics".  

Meanwhile, in France, cities were lobbying to have the next G8/G20 in their city!  Nice won out.  So, you chicken-hearted mayors who are afraid of the protestors, I hate to say it, but there's no effing way I will believe that giving into a mob-rules mentality is why I serve.  Shame on you all!


----------



## TCBF

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/28/jonathan-kay-toronto-city-of-wimps/

".....  I love living in Toronto. But in times of strain, the city takes on the character of an overprivileged wimp, shrieking and sobbing at the merest civic pin-pricks. We saw this in 1999, when the mayor asked for army troops to help battle the sort of snowstorms that Edmonton and Winnipeg seem to get every other week. ..."

Read more: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/28/jonathan-kay-toronto-city-of-wimps/#ixzz0sCYcsteT


----------



## Rogo

Technoviking said:
			
		

> the message is clear: "This is a democracy.  If you use mob-rules, we will use mob dispersion tactics".



I could not of heard a better summary anywhere else.

There is a strong correlation between not lighting cars on fire and not getting tear gassed.    :2c:


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*Quebec activists say they were targeted at G20 protests*
The Canadian Press
Date: Mon. Jun. 28 2010 7:32 PM ET


LINK 

MONTREAL — A group of Quebec protesters say people from their province were targeted at last weekend's G20 summit and arrested simply for speaking French or having fleur-de-lys license plates. 

So says the CLAC, Montreal's Anti-Capitalist Convergence group, which said Monday that only 125 of its 450 members who had taken buses to Toronto had returned. 

Many of its members were detained over the weekend and remained unaccounted for. 

The anti-capitalist, anti-state, anti-authority group describes the controversial Black Bloc tactics, blamed for many of the incidents in Toronto, as a legitimate form of protest.  

"When we arrived by bus the police were waiting for us. They took our flags, our (signs),"  said Danie Royer, a spokeswoman for the group. 

"During the weekend the tension was going higher and higher. On Sunday, it was impossible to walk in the streets. 

"Everyone that walked on the street that talked French or people who were driving with Quebec plates were arrested without justification." 

The CLAC describes itself as an umbrella group involved in a number of different issues -- including rights for immigrants and women, in addition to its anti-capitalist agenda. 

It has no problem with the so-called Black Bloc protest tactics, calling it a legitimate form of protest, which it says mainly targets "multi-national" companies and "symbols of capitalism." 

The protest tactic sees people using black clothing to blend into larger crowds and, in many cases, taking advantage of that anonymity to escape arrest for vandalism. 

"We respect a diversity of tactics. People are angry, particularly in the context of an event like that," said Mathieu Francoeur, another CLAC member. 

"For us it's vandalism against certain institutions . . . it's symbolic and doesn't compare with violence in general in society." 

But organizers for the Quebec-based group said they were surprised by the targeting of French-speaking protesters. 

One member who was detained on Sunday said she and two other Quebecers driving along College Street were stopped only because they had a Quebec licence plate. 

Camille, a slight redhead who refused to give her last name, said police then rifled through her possessions and found some black clothing. 

She also had a lawyer's telephone number scrawled on her arm and an anarchist book in the car. 

She said she was held for nearly 10 hours without being allowed to make a phone call, and was crammed into a cell with other women almost entirely from Quebec. 

"They showed us a report by accident that said they arrested us because we had Quebec licence plates and a black T-shirt," said the university student. 

She drove overnight to get out of Toronto after spending Sunday in detention. 

"We just wanted to get the hell out of there," she said. 

Toronto police declined to address the allegations. Integrated Security Unit spokeswoman Nathalie Deschenes said the force had no comment. 

Quebec has a comparatively deep history of events like those that occurred over the weekend in Toronto. 

The 2001 Summit of the Americas in Quebec City was marked by the appearance of the now-infamous Black Block protesters, who smashed windows and hurled projectiles at police. 

That 2001 summit ended with 463 arrests, more than $2.5 million in damage, and equally widespread complaints about police manhandling peaceful protesters. 

A five-member panel appointed by then-Quebec public security minister Serge Menard concluded officers used abusive amounts of tear gas and were wrong to shoot rowdy protesters with rubber and plastic bullets. 

Much like Toronto, the 2001 summit was held within a fenced-in part of the city. 

The CLAC organizers deflected allegations that people affiliated with their group were in large part responsible for the damage. 

The CLAC says about 1,000 members went in Toronto, but were immediately targeted as soon as their buses pulled into the city on Friday. 

"Anyone who had the protester look," Francoeur said. 

"There was institutionalized profiling, and we figured it might happen, but we never thought politicians would also give police carte blanche to do as they pleased." 

The CLAC had spent months organizing trips to Toronto to protest the G20. 

But the spokespeople said they did not produce a video that appeared on their website entitled "Mon voyage a Toronto" (My trip to Toronto); the video shows off different points of interest using skulls as landmarks. 

The Montreal protest group is planning to hold a demonstration on Thursday to denounce police handling of the G20 protests.




LINK 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

If you want to know who CLAC are, you can google them.  



> "When we arrived by bus the police were waiting for us. They took our flags, our (signs),"


 and many other items, conveniently not mentioned.

This doesn't reflect well on the Student Body of U of T.


----------



## George Wallace

I particularly liked this tactic.  The Police corralled a large number of protestors who were not in a "delcared" place of protest, and who were blocking traffic.  At the time, the weather had taken a nasty turn and the area was being pelted by heavy rain (Part of the Subway around Union Station was flooded.).  After at least four hours the police allowed the drenched protestors, many who were volunteering to be arrested to get out of this situation, to go home..........peacefully.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*Corralled for 4 hours, crowd dispersed by G20 police*
CTV.ca News Staff
Date: Sun. Jun. 27 2010 11:18 PM ET



LINK 

A tense and bizarre standoff between police and a crowd lingering in central Toronto following a weekend of G20 protests has ended after nearly four hours. 

At a busy intersection in the city's core, a large contingent of police boxed in a group of about 200 people in heavy rain. They were not allowed to leave the area. 

Dozens were arrested during the police action, which occurred only steps from where police cruisers were torched 24 hours earlier. 

Just before 9:45 p.m. local time, police let the remaining crowd go free.

Talking to reporters late Sunday night, Toronto Police Staff Superintendent Jeff McGuire was pressed to explain why police had barricaded people for so long in the rain, before simply letting them go. 

McGuire said, "We're not perfect in everything we do, but our interest was in the safety of the citizens of Toronto."

He added that police were trying to prevent the kind of violence caused by Black Bloc tactics the day before, and found weapons in the area.

"I don't know the specific weapons. I've been advised that some weapons were found along the route as the officers were forming around this group," he said.

Arrests linked to the G20 demonstrations have led to more than 600 arrests over the weekend.

CTV's Lisa LaFlamme said officers picked out some from the crowd and arrested them. A CTV News cameraman reporting from the scene was taken into police custody, but was released later. 

Some who had been held inside the make-shift human corral, located at Queen Street and Spadina Avenue, said that they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. When rain began to pour down, many were unprepared. 

Police have made at least 604 arrests this weekend, with about 253 taking place Sunday. Those numbers will likely rise. 

Earlier, there was a tense standoff at a temporary detention centre where hundreds of people arrested during the protests are being held. 

Outside the detention centre, which is about four kilometres east of the downtown core, police made a deal with the crowd, telling them they would release some of those arrested if the crowd moved off a busy street. The deal appeared to work and the crowd stepped back. 

Initially, police had issued two five-minute warnings to the crowd to get out of the area, but the demonstrators didn't move.

Some people arrested in Saturday were eventually released from the detention centre with conditions to appear in court. Others had their charges dropped.

Earlier, a riot squad used rubber bullets and blank rifle shots to drive back about 100 demonstrators at a seemingly peaceful sit-in outside the detention centre. Police then apprehended an alleged member of an anarchist protest group. 

Prime Minister Stephen Harper commented on the protests for the first time Sunday, saying the violence was unacceptable. 

"We obviously deplore the actions of a few thugs but the reality is unfortunately that these summits attract this element and that has been a problem, as we know, around the world," he said. 

"That said, this goes a long way to explaining why we have the kind of security costs around these summits that we do." 

Security costs for the summit total nearly $1 billion. 

During the early afternoon, sources told CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife that police arrested three individuals for weapons offences after Molotov cocktails were found in their vehicle. 

The incidents follow a number of arrests earlier Sunday. Police detained around 100 more people in connection with Saturday's violent protests against the G20 summit. 

While the streets of Toronto were calm early Sunday morning, dozens of police officers headed out to their positions across the downtown core and raided a building on the University of Toronto campus. 

A spokesperson for the Integrated Security Unit said officers found a cache of "street-type weaponry" such as bricks. 

"Our officers are out pro-actively looking for anybody with criminal intent," said Const. Samantha Nulle. "Today they located a large number of people, they intercepted them and they did locate a number of street weapons on them." 

Those arrested over the past 24 hours face a wide array of charges, from mischief and breach of the peace to assault, drug possession and dangerous weapons. 

An Ontario court building in the northwest of Toronto saw the first wave of cases on Sunday.

One by one, the accused were led into one of the five designated courtrooms to have their cases heard.

Common charges included assaulting a police officer, mischief and participating in an unlawful assembly. The Canadian Press reports that many were released on the condition they stay out of Toronto's downtown core, keep the peace and not take part in any demonstrations until a court-appointed date.

Detention centre concerns 

Nathalie Desrosiers of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association said monitors from her organization are among those being held at the detention centre, and she is concerned about the conditions under which they are being detained. 

On Saturday, while thousands of marchers peacefully walked from the Ontario legislature along a pre-planned route, a group of self-described anarchists broke away to confront police and vandalize stores, banks and other buildings. 

At least three police cars were also set fire. No serious injuries among protesters have been reported, although police did use tear gas and rubber bullets on some demonstrators. 

OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino, whose officers are seconded to the Integrated Security Unit, said a number of officers were taken to hospital with injuries. 

Fantino said officers had urine, paint and various objects thrown at them during the chaos, actions the commissioner called "disgraceful." 

Saturday's protests cancelled a concert at the Air Canada Centre, put downtown hospitals into lockdown and closed the popular Eaton Centre shopping mall.






LINK with comments.


----------



## TCBF

"... but we never thought politicians would also give police carte blanche to do as they pleased." 



- Suckers.


----------



## George Wallace

Make up your mind Moronto!

Do you want the Police to arrest the perps who committed all the violence, or do you want to free all the "jailed people"?


----------



## mariomike

Jonathan Kay:
"We saw this in 1999, when the mayor asked for army troops to help battle the sort of snowstorms that Edmonton and Winnipeg seem to get every other week."

If someone had called 9-1-1, and died because the ambulance could not get to them, a Coroner's Inquest would have been called to find out why. If the inquest heard that Mayor Lastman was aware that ambulances were not getting through, and could have asked the army for help, but failed to do so because he was afraid of what people might say, the Coroner's report would have condemned him. Lawsuits would have followed.

The snow was up to the second story on houses. The eight Bisons had to be used for about 35 emergency calls that the ambulances could not get to.
The Minister of Defence, Mr. Eggleton ( himself a former mayor of Toronto ), authorized help as a matter of public safety.


----------



## Kat Stevens

And there are gajillions of square kilometres in this country that sees that kind of snowfall on a regular basis, and nobody calls out the troops.  We grab our shovels, start our snowblowers, and git 'er  done.  The road I live on sees a plough twice every winter, need it or not.


----------



## TCBF

mariomike said:
			
		

> Jonathan Kay:
> "We saw this in 1999, when the mayor asked for army troops to help battle the sort of snowstorms that Edmonton and Winnipeg seem to get every other week."
> 
> If someone had called 9-1-1, and died because the ambulance could not get to them, a Coroner's Inquest would have been called to find out why. If the inquest heard that Mayor Lastman was aware that ambulances were not getting through, and could have asked the army for help, but failed to do so because he was afraid of what people might say, the Coroner's report would have condemned him. Lawsuits would have followed.
> 
> The snow was up to the second story on houses. The eight Bisons had to be used for about 35 emergency calls that the ambulances could not get to.
> The Minister of Defence, Mr. Eggleton ( himself a former mayor of Toronto ), authorized help as a matter of public safety.



- Disagree.

- Emergency planners have access to Provincial DOT Motor Vehicle Registrations, do they not? How many plows, graders, front end loaders and trucks with blades are located within two hundred miles of Toronto? Enough to get rid of all of that snow if the City Of Toronto wanted to spend the money to hire them?

- I like the way the CF had a big private joke on Toronto.  Only idiots send wheeled vehilcles to a REAL snowstorm. Hundreds and hundreds of tracked vehicles in the CF and we spit in Toronto's face, send them wheeled vehicles, then sat back and laughed about it.

- It's all about who pays - like the forest fires in BC in 2003. Think all of those layed-off woods workers wouldn't have liked being paid to put out fires? Sure, but BC would rather Canada payed us instead of BC paying their own unemployed workers (who knew the woods) to put out the fires.


----------



## mariomike

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And there are gajillions of square kilometres in this country that sees that kind of snowfall on a regular basis, and nobody calls out the troops.  We grab our shovels, start our snowblowers, and git 'er  done.  The road I live on sees a plough twice every winter, need it or not.



That is true. There was no problem in the suburban boroughs like Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough. But, the inner-city residential streets were so tight that the snow equipment they had back then - just after Amalgamation - was too big. From what I understand, Bisons could "traverse a narrow path and clear the snow away". 
Since then, the snow equipment has been rebuilt and modernised, so "they say" removal in tight streets should not be a problem again.


----------



## Kat Stevens

The biggest problem from what I saw on the telly from the comfort of my home in -35C Edmonton, was that nobody thinks the rules against parking on the street applies to them.  Every scene I saw showed cars parked on the street buried in snow.  Graders and ploughs can't just engage "slim mode" and get through.


----------



## TCBF

mariomike said:
			
		

> That is true. There was no problem in the suburban boroughs like Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough. But, the inner-city residential streets were so tight that the snow equipment they had back then - just after Amalgamation - was too big. From what I understand, Bisons could "traverse a narrow path and clear the snow away".
> Since then, the snow equipment has been rebuilt and modernised, so "they say" removal in tight streets should not be a problem again.



- Does not compute. What did they use on narrow streets during a normal snowfall?  What about all of those narrow sidewalk plows?  Union rules: can't be used on streets? I still ain't buying it.


----------



## TCBF

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The biggest problem from what I saw on the telly from the comfort of my home in -35C Edmonton, was that nobody thinks the rules against parking on the street applies to them.  Every scene I saw showed cars parked on the street buried in snow.  Graders and ploughs can't just engage "slim mode" and get through.



- So do what they do in a normal city: the owner digs it out and moves it, or the owner tries to pay the tow truck company to get his car back.

- In a life or limb emergency: screw the parked cars and send in the plows.


----------



## mariomike

TCBF said:
			
		

> Hundreds and hundreds of tracked vehicles in the CF and we spit in Toronto's face, send them wheeled vehicles, then sat back and laughed about it.



I appreciate the help they gave us getting to our patients. 
The patients ( especially those with trauma ) probably appreciated riding on tires. 
I wasn't involved in snow removal operations.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Roger that.  There aren't many things parked on the street that a Champion 760 grader won't move.


----------



## TCBF

mariomike said:
			
		

> I appreciate the help they gave us.




- I probably vent a bit much on this sort of thing, but voters are not holding their elected officials responsible for failing to plan for simple, predictable emergencies.  Some day, the bottom will fall out.


----------



## mariomike

TCBF said:
			
		

> - I probably vent a bit much on this sort of thing, but voters are not holding their elected officials responsible for failing to plan for simple, predictable emergencies.  Some day, the bottom will fall out.



I agree. Toronto panics easily. I know that very well. 
But, the good will that the CF generated that winter was very real. Everyone from the mayor on down was sincerely grateful. The CF made a lot of friends in this town. Seeing those Bisons roll down Yonge Street was awesome! 
This was before 9/11 and Afganistan. Everything changed after that. You couldn't call the CF after that because Torontonians were having anxiety attacks! hahaha


----------



## Kirkhill

And moving back to rioters in June........

I got a bit bent out of shape about M. le President Sarkozy's assertion that his shindig will only cost $100,000,000.  Presumably that is due to many of his costs being covered under existing budgets.

When our coppers run out of overtime they have to call in you lot.  You, and the 27 rifle companies constitute the government's ready reserve - minus the troops deployed or training or whatever.

M. le President however has available 60 companies of CRS policemen sitting in barracks ready to try and stop disgruntled citizens torching 9000 civilian cars (2005).

If the job gets too much for them he can call in the 100 squadrons of soldiers in the Gendarmerie Mobile that are also held at the ready.  

If these 160 company sized units can't grip the situation they then move up the response to 17 squadrons of VAB mounted gendarmes.


And when that fails there is always the heavy brigade of Gendarmes  with three VAB squadrons backed by a squadron of 32 ERC-90s  (MGS type armoured cars mounting a 90 mm turret.


French riot control.


----------



## Kirkhill

PS

Just so's I can't be accused of anti-Chauvinism......

The Germans maintain 29 companies of special duties police in 11 BPA battalions.

The Italians maintain 11 battalions of Carabinieri for the same purposes.

The cost of maintaining those troops, standing troops, is considerable more expensive, on an ongoing basis, than 1 Billion dollars.

Those troops are strictly to impose order at home.  They are not expeditionary troops.  They are not even available to defend borders against other soldiers.


----------



## maikeru333

This link is an overview from the real news network of the g20, policy that was debated, etc:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu5o5891JS8

if you search false flag or agent provocateurs hopefully you can find some pretty interesting stuff... sometimes switching up the search engines you use will suddenly start finding new things you can't seem to find elsewhere, or with certain (flagged) keywords.
Here is one video I liked on this topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeG_t9abaSU


----------



## Fusaki

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> if you search false flag or agent provocateurs hopefully you can find some pretty interesting stuff... sometimes switching up the search engines you use will suddenly start finding new things you can't seem to find elsewhere, or with certain (flagged) keywords.
> Here is one video I liked on this topic:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeG_t9abaSU



I'm glad to see the cops had infiltrated criminal groups intent on using Black Bloc tactics, and that the targeted arrests of _key instigators_ kept the number of peaceful protesters who got teargassed to a minimum.


----------



## maikeru333

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm0fehUHq4E cbc talking about the extra powers police got for the protest, and how they used them... still hasn't fully loaded for me yet... not sure why...

Amy Miller with alternative media centre talks about prisoner treatment:
vimeo.com/12925239

www.g20inquiry.org here and on the facebook site of same intent http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=135629036463012&share_id=134144403280453&comments=1#s134144403280453
there are some good links... personal accounts of what transpired are now being given, and people are still going over media and trying to edit it to give a better picture of what was going on... many stories are still coming out.  Is it ok with you, if they come out?  Or is part of the 'policing' intended to be manipulating the media, and manufacturing consent?  Isn't that more psyops and cointelpro?  watching for the blowback from the black ops, etc?  yeah yeah you get the picture, right?


----------



## Fusaki

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm0fehUHq4E cbc talking about the extra powers police got for the protest, and how they used them... still hasn't fully loaded for me yet... not sure why...
> 
> Amy Miller with alternative media centre talks about prisoner treatment:
> vimeo.com/12925239
> 
> www.g20inquiry.org here and on the facebook site of same intent http://www.facebook.com/posted.php?id=135629036463012&share_id=134144403280453&comments=1#s134144403280453
> there are some good links... personal accounts of what transpired are now being given, and people are still going over media and trying to edit it to give a better picture of what was going on... many stories are still coming out.  Is it ok with you, if they come out?  Or is part of the 'policing' intended to be manipulating the media, and manufacturing consent?  Isn't that more psyops and cointelpro?  watching for the blowback from the black ops, etc?  yeah yeah you get the picture, right?



Personally, I think there _should_ be a public inquiry.  It should be open, and fair, and the courts should be ready to prosecute cops who were out of line. But for that matter, I think that those engaged in criminal activism should be prosecuted as well.  A fair judicial system is just as important as confiscating sharpened sticks when it comes to stopping those who engage in Black Bloc tactics.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> .... The Italians maintain 11 battalions of Carabinieri for the same purposes ....


Not to mention all the many levels of paramilitary federal-level police forces.  And other European countries have the same.

Good points.

Maikeru333 - welcome to Army.ca.  I'm curious - what's your take on why the peaceful protesters didn't denounce violence or property damage.  After all, a lot of people are saying the vandalism took away big time from the main messages everyone SAID they wanted to get across.

Also, how about the eyewitness accounts of how Black Bloc'ers were changing into and out of their clothes to blend into/out of the peaceful crowds?
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Craig+Kielburger+blog+Shrouded+destructors+hijack+peaceful+message/3208426/story.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/0627/Black-Bloc-tactics-mar-Canada-s-G-20-summit
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/27/black-bloc-g20-627.html

Also, what do you mean by "manipulating the media"?  Aren't there all sorts of non-MSM media outlets sharing an "alternative" message?  Are you suggesting the stories aren't coming out?


----------



## maikeru333

there is video showing the 'anarchist black block tactic terrorist alien mind absorbing demonically possessed...' sorry where was i? they had new clothes, nice, expensive boots... all the same... maybe mil issue... anarchists without jobs can't afford too often...

http://coto2.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/500-arrested-at-g20-black-bloc-may-be-psyops/

this is to put the false flag operation, and team of 'plainclothes agents' into better perspective.

montebello is the keyword you're looking for. agent provacateurs might be useful too.  there were people theorizing the same about the rbc bank incident - violence turns off lots of people, so it was thought they may have targeting 'some activist leader types' early on to get them away from the g20, or whatever other issues they were organizing for... lots of leaders were targeted - non-violent protesters, independent media - there's lots of video of police doing snatches in the middle of non-violent protest to take people out, some of whom were described as organizers... not as much video of some of the violence close range, because the media were targetted first... and none from inside (well, that we have access to everything was on video, and mic'd, in the 'film studio' short term prisons... ... don't know if that was feeding to the g20 summit too or not... stripped searched and fondled, starved protesters... you can give people bio-ch1p$ through food, orally, interestingly... after not being giving access to food, water, phone access... and targetting people differntly, like people who wouldn't know their rights... hmm you'll hear about the sexual abuse in more detail later anyways)

getting distracted... been trying to follow this as it happens.

I guess the point is, i know you really want to defend your buddies, but that's not your job; just like that's not the polices job to beat the shit out of citizens lawfully standing up for their rights, their beliefs, and Canadian values.  I'm sure security forces appreciate it though when other security forces types make up excuses for them and discount media etc so they don't have to do as much work white washing the blood they spilled, the lives they ruin, and the policies, people, and lies they are really protecting.

Nuremburg says it is your duty to disobey unlawful orders, regardless of being given them from up the chain of command; obviously they only use this in practice to scapegoat people to avoid scandals of important personal doing the dirty work they want to protect, but _in theory_ it means you don't stand up for your values, when the fit hits the shan, its on your own head: that is to say, they will use you for what they think you are good for, try and keep you stupid, and then spit you out when they are done with you.

The difference between martial arts and three weeks of killing techniques is not about who can kill the easiest, because you can teach that pretty quickly; its about being able to defend yourself, and knowing WHEN AND WHY to use those techniques; or even TO HAVE THE SKILL TO OVERPOWER SOMEONE WITHOUT HURTING THEM.  When all you care about is kill ratio, and policy makers' troops are only so much fodder, these techniques are simlpy TIME CONSUMING and INEFFICIENT.  Who care if you make killing machines who can't be reintegrtated into socitiety, and could wake up in the middle of the night and kill a loved one on reflex before they know its just some ptsd flashback nightmare?

I don't know what that bothers me, i have no military background... past life?

yeah see now i'm wasting your and my time ranting, when the videos pretty much speak for themselves, about who was burning what, and why.  quick summary of montebello - the technique was to have operatives START VIOLENCE to justify VIOLENT REPRESSION, at least in the mainstream media, who could control and spin what was shown to keep it hush hush... its just that it was a tight knit group, and some were pretty quick on the ball.
i bet some people call them paranoid. or conspiracy theorists. possible true. possibly saved people a much worse beating that time, too. it still happened there; they just waited for the main bus loads of people to leave - that is to say, it was LESS DANGEROUS so they decided to use MORE FORCE.  my intuitive interpretation of this is that they were less concerned about physical reprisals from the activists present then, or videos coming out, etc.

people grabbing person's jugulars as a 'pain compliance technique' risk killing those protesters, as the muscles in the neck that hold the jugular there are in fact, when ripped (there does not need to be any bleeding, it is a nerve response thing), what causes death from the supposed 'neck snapping' or seeing of chiropractors, etc.
I wonder if the police doing that are AWARE of this risk, or are only taught that it is useful to make someone pass out, and pain compliance: i don't like the answer, either way.

Anyways, i'm sure you've found some good links, i skipped some pages in there, so something must have come up in all this debate since my previous post on #29

You have to pick a side at some point. I don't mean Harper's, or the protesters.  I mean did you sign up to kill anyone you were told to, for money; or did you sign up to stand for something, and what Canada COULD and SHOULD be.  Canada is not its government; its not its land, its resources, its military, its tv.  CANADA IS ITS PEOPLE, AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.
I know what kind of CANADA I believe in, and its not the Canada I'm living in right now...
But the Canada I'm living in right now is where I learned the Canada I do believe in; and I think I'm not the only one.
Sorry if I wasted your time.


----------



## maikeru333

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928 feet


----------



## MARS

> The difference between martial arts and three weeks of killing techniques is not about who can kill the easiest, because you can teach that pretty quickly; its about being able to defend yourself, and knowing WHEN AND WHY to use those techniques; or even TO HAVE THE SKILL TO OVERPOWER SOMEONE WITHOUT HURTING THEM.  When all you care about is kill ratio, and policy makers' troops are only so much fodder, these techniques are simlpy TIME CONSUMING and INEFFICIENT.  Who care if you make killing machines who can't be reintegrtated into socitiety, and could wake up in the middle of the night and kill a loved one on reflex before they know its just some ptsd flashback nightmare?



???  I really can't figure out what this has to do with this thread.



> people grabbing person's jugulars as a 'pain compliance technique' risk killing those protesters, as the muscles in the neck that hold the jugular there are in fact, when ripped (there does not need to be any bleeding, it is a nerve response thing), what causes death from the supposed 'neck snapping' or seeing of chiropractors, etc.
> I wonder if the police doing that are AWARE of this risk, or are only taught that it is useful to make someone pass out, and pain compliance: i don't like the answer, either way.



This website differs from almost all other sites in that we strongly encourage people to 'stay in their lanes' meaning, unless clearly stating something as an opinion, to refrain from posting things that are not within their area of expertise - in this case, I would suggest that you are out of your lane unless you have a professional medical background.



> i skipped some pages in there, so something must have come up in all this debate since my previous post on #29



You shouldn't skip pages - doing so and then posting without a full understanding of where the discussion is at creates a disjointed thread to the detriment of the rest of the readership who are following along.



> getting distracted...



I know the feeling.  You were expected to have read the site guidelines when you joined, part of which stipulate that proper use of punctuation, spelling and grammar are expected on this site.  A spell check function is also provided when you post - I use it all the time.  Repeated failure to do so can and has resulted in people being banned.  Your post is quite difficult to follow in its current form which detracts from your argument.  I encourage you to reflect on this before you post again and hope that you enjoy this site.

Regards,

MARS
milnet.ca mentor


----------



## Teeps74

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> if you search false flag or agent provocateurs hopefully you can find some pretty interesting stuff... sometimes switching up the search engines you use will suddenly start finding new things you can't seem to find elsewhere, or with certain (flagged) keywords.
> Here is one video I liked on this topic:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeG_t9abaSU



This line tells me exactly everything I need to know about you.

We have been here again and again and again.

Hello, and good bye. Have a nice day troll.


----------



## 2010newbie

Many people have said that the police "abandoned" their cars as incentive to the protestors to vandalize them, but this clip is the first one I've seen that shows the protestors attacking the police car with the officer still inside (@ 44 sec mark). It sure as heck doesn't look like the police abandoned the vehicle and left it until well after the protestors started trashing it. I hope the officer in the car was not injured from this attack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOjGdvju-po


----------



## Teeps74

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Many people have said that the police "abandoned" their cars as incentive to the protestors to vandalize them, but this clip is the first one I've seen that shows the protestors attacking the police car with the officer still inside (@ 44 sec mark). It sure as heck doesn't look like the police abandoned the vehicle and left it until well after the protestors started trashing it. I hope the officer in the car was not injured from this attack.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOjGdvju-po



HArd clip to find, as, if I was a conspiracy theorist, I would believe that most agencies posting these clips to the net deliberately edited out this footage to change the context.

I do not expect the apologists for domestic terrorism to ever speak to that... The cars will forever have been randomly abandoned in their minds.


----------



## 2010newbie

or they'll say the protestors attacking the vehicle were really agent provocateurs... :


----------



## armyvern

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> You have to pick a side at some point. I don't mean Harper's, or the protesters.  I mean did you sign up to kill anyone you were told to, for money; or did you sign up to stand for something, and what Canada COULD and SHOULD be.  Canada is not its government; its not its land, its resources, its military, its tv.  CANADA IS ITS PEOPLE, AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.
> I know what kind of CANADA I believe in, and its not the Canada I'm living in right now...
> But the Canada I'm living in right now is where I learned the Canada I do believe in; and I think I'm not the only one.
> Sorry if I wasted your time.



Canada is indeed it's people. It's people have also decided that Canada will be a democratic nation - one where it's people can and do have the right to peacefully protest. Those people of Canada also elect it's government. Funny that. That is STILL the country that I'm living in.

I AM one of those PEOPLE. Don't forget that. I don't get paid to kill anyone. I get paid to defend this nation and it's sovereignty. If, some day, that includes having to kill someone in this nation's defense - so be it. I vote. Anarchist don't. Whose problem is that?

I'm now, mods beware, going to start posting links to videos of pers coming out of the detention centre who were interviewed and talked about being fed while they were in there, talked about the free legal services and advice they were offered, their court appearance that they were taken to (if necessary). I'll also find the one to the far-left lawyer who was interviewed about all the pers who were contacting her and all the other lawyers on standby from inside the detention block for legal advice ...

Where's your link to those my dear? Where's your link to the videos of the peaceful protestors grabbing black block guys & gals as they tried to inflict damage & destruction and telling them to get the hell out of their lawful and peaceful protest?? Only to get heckled by the not-so-peacefully minded parts of the crowd? Where's your link to the "Peaceful" protest video at Queen & Spadina that saw them sit on the street when asked to move on or disburse by police (thus turning it into an illegal event) ... you do know that those ones who the police went in to arrest were indeed the ones encouraging the peaceful ones to sit and disobey right ... thus the "ringleaders" who were indeed arrested by the police who went in and got them. Is that what you guys are editing out?

Oh, or is that what all you guys are waiting for to get out of the "edited" videos? You know, the videos that you mentionned posting earlier where you said you had to wait until the "editing was done".

Post 'em up - unedited. 



*NB: Please, don't get yourself banned before my leave is done on 18 July; I have a feeling that I'm going to find you and your tinfoil hat quite entertaining.

Have a great, peaceful day.


----------



## maikeru333

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> (((1)))I'm curious - what's your take on why the peaceful protesters didn't denounce violence or property damage.  After all, a lot of people are saying the vandalism took away big time from the main messages everyone SAID they wanted to get across.
> 
> (((2)))Also, how about the eyewitness accounts of how Black Bloc'ers were changing into and out of their clothes to blend into/out of the peaceful crowds?
> http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Craig+Kielburger+blog+Shrouded+destructors+hijack+peaceful+message/3208426/story.html
> http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/0627/Black-Bloc-tactics-mar-Canada-s-G-20-summit
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/27/black-bloc-g20-627.html
> 
> (((3)))Also, what do you mean by "manipulating the media"?  Aren't there all sorts of non-MSM media outlets sharing an "alternative" message?  Are you suggesting the stories aren't coming out?



1) Divide and conquer is a well known tactic.
Many in the movement believe in non-violence, and did not go to protest because of incidents in the media about 'anarchists' planning for violence, with an RBC bank in Ottawa as one notable example.  So, knowing many activists, I can tell you that a very significant number did denounce the violence; this might suggest the numbers of protesters involved at the g8 -g20 summit may have been significantly higher than they were, if this were not the case.

2) It seems they were concealing themselves.  They forgot to change their boots.

3) I do not see any alternative media well represented on this site, except for what I have posted; this may suggest a paradigm of believing what you are told, and not questioning authority or the answers you are given.  This might be problematic in finding the truth. There has been much in the media about who it is being controlled by, media being forced to give away sources (so whistle blowers lose their protections), and editorial control of content, for instance with Global media, where one head office gives a directive about 'what opinion all editors will put forward in their media chains' etc.


---
What is the editorial directive of army.ca on the g8/g20 june protests, milnews.ca?

Why would protesters be so easily led astray, unable to discern what was going on, to maintain effective strategies for the movement, instead of being turned nearly completely ineffective by a few broken windows, burning cars, masks, and perfectly timed media attention? Leaders were targeted long before the event, some neutralized, others not allowed into the country; or snatched and grabbed from the (non-violent) protest, while, interestingly, sometimes the other protesters get angry, but generally continue to chant things like "we are peaceful, how about you"; that is to say, whether a strength or a weakness, non-violence as higher ground or as pathology, virtually no protesters that I am aware of reacted violently when they or those they cared about were violentlyl attacked by police, or arrested and dragged off.  So when there are lots of police nearby off camera (who had access to fire extinguishers), who were ordered mysteriously to back off from the vehicles and let them burn (but fortunately no explosions from gas or bullets in the trunk - and the computers had already been conveniently removed, and the vehicles were all back up ones mentioned by a former police officer to be listed on an auction site for somewhat over $200 ) it becomes questionable why protesters would see themselves responsible for stopping a crime against property.  I'm sure there were many who came out to cause problems - the 10% who would follow the 1% of initiators, however trees and bike racks had been removed from the route, a tow truck could have easily removed them - and after the media got their shots, firetrucks were called in - but I feel the level of strategy of many people who care about something but are essentially untrained, may not have been up to the task of discerning what kind of traps had been prepared for them. (Violent mass arrests in a peaceful demonstration in the 'designated protest zones')

There was a lot violence at the protest - virtually none from protesters towards police or each other - a great deal from police _Integrated Security Unit _ (the new law allows police powers to those without police training, ie designated security guards, to make arrests or POSE as police officers (normally an indictable offense) in order to perpetrate justice punishment towards the protesters Canadian Citizens standing up for their rights -some while they were singing OH Canada en mass.
I 
There _were_ police officers, some of whom answered 'they had no idea what was going on' when asked by protesters or detainees, and _others_ who 'knew it would be quiet night' when asked - possibly because the intent to mass arrest ALL protesters had been premeditated.

There are many 'facts' available, but as sites like youtomb.mit.edu sometimes show, these are often sanitized given time, and the prefabricated spin becomes more set, as evidence to challenge it is, bit by bit, efficiently tracked, and suppressed.

If you keep asking questions, I may keep posting; if you distract with other posts, this will likely just get buried and ignored; I'm not sure which may be more in line with your editorial directive.  If it is simply to get at the truth- well I think they can find that for themselves; if it was important enough.  If people wanted to see the truth, even when it doesn't serve preconceptions that make it easier for you to feel good about yourselves, and what you do.
Jack Nicholson doesn't think you can _handle_ the truth.  Oh wait that was just a character in a fictional story.

I think while searching I thought I saw some intelligent debate; as I was reading through the other posts on this topic, I was less sure of that.

Maybe somebody confirm this 'fact' I was told: that CSIS confirmed there were no legitimate terrorist threats viable to occur at the G8/G20 protests (to justify increasing funding from ~12million? to 2 billion? --realnews gives numbers of 1 billion, and says only 500 million is unaccounted for by the security budget, etc)?  Maybe if the city unilaterally declared it was not paying, and the G20 leaders could then realistically reassess their own salaries in light of the necessary budgets for the things they want to have at their parties.

I really hope they weren't streaming the video from the film studio jail to the meetings, even though by law, they were required to allow protesters to be seen and heard, and so had a video feed from the designated protest zone to the delegates.  The jail where there were gratuitous strip searches, and many young people basically being broken through various means (which are in the links I provided) for their _entertainment._

I may not come back here to read the responses, because I'm not sure what seeing how people would 'justify' that on here would do to me.

I understand good and evil is often not that simple; things are not always that black and white.  Even when they are.  Everyone _has reason_ - to them its a good reason.  But at some point people's blatant disregard for the welfare of people you care about becomes intolerable.


----------



## 1feral1

Your quote - "I understand good and evil is often not that simple; things are not always that black and white.  Even when they are.  Everyone _has reason_ - to them its a good reason.  But at some point people's blatant disregard for the welfare of people you care about becomes intolerable."
[/quote]

Sir,

Freedom is not given, it is taken, and evil cannot be defeated, it must be overcome.

Don't like the Canada you live in? Well feel lucky, this G20 protest in some other nations would have had you shot for such behaviour, or at least be captured, tortured and beaten within an inch of your life. Your rights and freedom as a Canadian have been paid for by others, who died so you can have your freedom you obviously take for granted.

Regards,
CC 

EDITed for spelling...


----------



## The Bread Guy

2010newbie said:
			
		

> or they'll say the protestors attacking the vehicle were really agent provocateurs... :


Or they'll say the police LET the attacks on the cars happen  :


----------



## Teeps74

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> I think while searching I thought I saw some intelligent debate; as I was reading through the other posts on this topic, I was less sure of that.



You are less likely to find intelligent debate when you deliberately insult us, and bandy about with half thought out conspiracy theories.


----------



## Teeps74

Argh, I gotta learn the points system. How did I give 150 points when I wanted to take?   Argh!


----------



## The Bread Guy

> 3) I do not see any alternative media well represented on this site, except for what I have posted; this may suggest a paradigm of believing what you are told, and not questioning authority or the answers you are given ....


I guess you missed these:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-916609.html#msg916609
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-918100.html#msg918100
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-919213.html#msg919213
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-921877.html#msg921877
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-928447.html#msg928447
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-932325.html#msg932325
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-932880.html#msg932880
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934210.html#msg934210
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934823.html#msg934823
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934864.html#msg934864
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935322.html#msg935322
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935374.html#msg935374
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935937.html#msg935937
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-936111.html#msg936111
(etc.)
Might this suggest a paradigm of believing (only) what *you* are told, and not questioning (what you consider your) authority or the answers you are given?



			
				Teeps74 said:
			
		

> You are less likely to find intelligent debate when you deliberately insult us, and bandy about with half thought out conspiracy theories.


What he said.  Why don't you see if rabble.ca has time/space for you?  You're not worth any more of my time here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Argh, I gotta learn the points system. How did I give 150 points when I wanted to take?   Argh!


Did same - there's always tomorrow  ;D


----------



## 2010newbie

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928 feet



This link is hilarious......



> Take a close look at the upturned boot.
> 
> This is a brand new (? recently issued) very distinctive deep black colour combat boot. Note as at Montebello, the special thick heavy corrugated soles plus what appears to be some reinforcement of the upper forefoot area. Also note the mismatched black and white socks. Is this a recognition code to their uniformed colleagues? The nice heavy shiny new belt also appears to be part of a uniform.



The paragraph above is from the link and is discussing the same mis-matched sock picture that was discussed earlier in the thread. We should have realised it was a secret code to notify the police that he was really "one of them".... :

It also then compares the shoes to the combat BOOTS the riot police are wearing and states they are identical. The first photo shows one of the thugs and states:



> Here an operative throws a metal chair through a Starbucks window. This man’s physique doesn’t look like a seedy ‘anarchist’ to me. Rather, this is the fit strong body of a trained soldier – somebody who puts in a lot of regular gym time.


----------



## MARS

> (Violent mass arrests in a peaceful demonstration in the *'designated protest zones*')



(emphasis added)

See?  If we aren't being accurate then it is impossible to determine the facts of any particular issue.

Below is an excerpt from  today's Globe and Mail of an interview with Toronto's chief of police.





> Q. Why did the police go in and make arrests at Queen's Park, which I understood was supposed to be the *legitimate protest gathering site*?
> 
> A. [There has been] incredible misrepresentation of what that was. It was a *rallying point * for legitimate protests.… There's no sanctuary from criminality. And what happened is after they rampaged along Queen and up Yonge Street, we watched them. We watched them as they went over to Queen's Park. We watched them as they changed into other clothes, and we watched them as they hid in the crowd among the people that had gathered at Queen's Park. We went in to apprehend them.



(emphasis added)

Two incorrect interpretations - yours and the reporter's - of what the Queen's Park area was actually for.

_Edited for grammar and clarity_


----------



## mariomike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Well, mayors, it looks like you're showing your yellow stripes.



Do we know yet what year Canada will be hosting its next G20?
I wonder if they will ever again decide to situate it in the downtown core of a major Canadian city. 
If so, which one will they select next?


----------



## 57Chevy

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Where's your link to the videos of the peaceful protestors grabbing black block guys & gals as they tried to inflict damage & destruction and telling them to get the hell out of their lawful and peaceful protest??



I think I made mention of this kind of action that could/would be taken somewhere in the thread.
These hooligans spend so much time and effort trying in every way possible to show some kind of
police brutality. Even going so far as to edit their own short videos. Those true democratic peaceful protesters will undoubtedly take notice of this, as will most people.
Take notes "maikeru", because peaceful protesters are not going to let a handful of hoodlums take away their democratic rights. As you tie the security personnels hands behind their back so as to make them seem somewhat non-effective, you open wide the door to retaliation from those you try
to rally to your sick cause. What will you post to yourtube when you have been beaten half to death
by those protesters who demand to exercise their rights. You can keep plugging away at it, but remember, just when you think that you have the table turned in your favor.....it crushes the life out of you. It would be a good thing for you to ponder on the statement, "power to the people".


----------



## Teeps74

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I guess you missed these:
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-916609.html#msg916609
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-918100.html#msg918100
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-919213.html#msg919213
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-921877.html#msg921877
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-928447.html#msg928447
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-932325.html#msg932325
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-932880.html#msg932880
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934210.html#msg934210
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934823.html#msg934823
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-934864.html#msg934864
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935322.html#msg935322
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935374.html#msg935374
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-935937.html#msg935937
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-936111.html#msg936111
> (etc.)
> Might this suggest a paradigm of believing (only) what *you* are told, and not questioning (what you consider your) authority or the answers you are given?
> What he said.  Why don't you see if rabble.ca has time/space for you?  You're not worth any more of my time here.



Good catch, but alas, the one to whom we are responding has already admitted to NOT reading through the thread, or even the forums.  It came here with it's on prejudices and preconceptions, and it is unwilling to waiver from those falsehoods.


----------



## Journeyman

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928 feet


I told myself I wouldn't get involved with this faux-discussion...I did!!  Yet, here I am  :brickwall:


That article's only attempt at a premise is that people wearing boots with Vibram-style soles *must* be police _agents provocateur_ (notwithstanding the vandal with mismatched socks is wearing shoes when the rest of the photographic "evidence" shows police wearing boots).

At the end of the posted diatribe, there's an ad for "Sinister Soles" -- Gothic Boots. 
*Oh look, Vibram-style soles!!*    Say it ain't so!


So my counter-argument, backed by the same absence of logic as the article's author, is that all people wearing "police-style" boots are goth punks


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So my counter-argument, backed by the same absence of logic as the article's author, is that all people wearing "police-style" boots are goth punks


Or all goth punks are police infiltrators?  Or are they?  Or some of them?  Or are some _pretending_ to be police infiltrators?  How can one be sure?  
</mindgame>


----------



## Danjanou

Ironically when I opend the link to the grassy knoll  oops sorry global research site, the internet banner add at the bottom was for..... vibram soled militay style combat boots. :


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Or all goth punks are police infiltrators?  Or are they?  Or some of them?  Or are some _pretending_ to be police infiltrators?  How can one be sure?
> </mindgame>



Sorry, I was....


			
				maikeru333 said:
			
		

> getting distracted...


Probably the "bio-ch1p$" the site owner feeds us      :nod:


----------



## dapaterson

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Ironically when I opend the link to the grassy knoll  oops sorry global research site, the internet banner add at the bottom was for..... vibram soled militay style combat boots. :



Since you visit this site, you've got a Google or Double-Click cookie on your computer - so the ads that appear for you are tailored to your interests.

Google knows more about you than your wife does - and probably more than you do.


----------



## vonGarvin

Two operatives from the G20 Fraud:







On a serious note: I'm fucking sick and tired of these thugs first blowing up a city core and then blaming it on the police.  I guess they take a page from Herr Göbbels: the bigger the lie, the better.  


I mean, check out all the Police in here, dressed as protestors.  I mean, they are all (mostly) fit, and we all know only the police and military are fit:


----------



## armyvern

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Since you visit this site, you've got a Google or Double-Click cookie on your computer - so the ads that appear for you are tailored to your interests.
> 
> Google knows more about you than your wife does - and probably more than you do.



Ahh, that explains JMs "Goth Style Boot" ads --- I always knew there was something a little bit tinfoily about him.


----------



## Scott

"Look at those bricks in the center of the road, the city's public works department _must_ have left them loose, as ordered by _the man_ so that we would find them and throw them through windows. God, I hate Starbucks, it is like a laxative on me, let's smash their windows"

I saw a sign saying "Shell pisses me off" Okay, but _why_? BP's a much easier target


----------



## armyvern

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I mean, check out all the Police in here, dressed as protestors.  I mean, they are all (mostly) fit, and we all know only the police and military are fit:



Note the gent standing behind the police car just to the left of the pax door in the plaid garments.

That's one in the same lad who is shown earlier in this thread in the "BEFORE" and "AFTER" pics with the burn marks on his chest. I watched this incident on TV, and was quite amused at what an asshat he was when, after the car gets torched, he jumped up on it's roof and was bouncing around and shoving burning items that he removed from inside the car down his shirt and jacket. WTF?? said I as I pondered just how much of an idiot one can be.

We've got all types in this great nation. _All_ types.  :


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Been up on an awesome camping trip in Huntsville, so I had to miss most of this one.  

Okay, who decided that the police cruiser that got burned was a junker?!? It is a new looking vehicle and how would anyone know how many kilometers are on it? Does anyone know what the average klicks on a cruiser are?  My district car generally has 170,000 km on it.  It isn't close to being over the hill.  It is only three years old.  

From one of the articles posted several pages back:


> We will let the police know that we will not tolerate the arrests, beatings and attempt to intimidate the people of Toronto.


 :rofl:  Yes, you will soft beeeotches.  Kick the dog, enjoy the reaction.  



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> "OTTAWA -
> Some mayors suggest events like the G8 and G20 summits should never again be held in the downtown core of a city.":
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100628/national/g8_g20_mayors



Funny, the one mayor they didn't contact?  The mayor of Huntsville.  Having spoken with him myself, he had no complaints.  And I'm sure the extra money in the area wasn't hurting anyones feelings.


----------



## 2010newbie

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Note the gent standing behind the police car just to the left of the pax door in the plaid garments.
> 
> That's one in the same lad who is shown earlier in this thread in the "BEFORE" and "AFTER" pics with the burn marks on his chest. I watched this incident on TV, and was quite amused at what an idiot he was when, after the car gets torched, he jumped up on it's roof and was bouncing around and shoving burning items that he removed from inside the car down his shirt and jacket. WTF?? said I as I pondered just how much of an idiot one can be.
> 
> We've got all types in this great nation. _All_ types.  :



I would love to see that video because in the article below he claims to be lighting _himself_ on fire on top of the police car. When he noticed it was burning inside he then tried to extinguish the fire.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> "The fire, the accused and the cop":
> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/829587--the-fire-the-accused-and-the-cop


----------



## PMedMoe

2010newbie said:
			
		

> I would love to see that video because in the article below he claims to be lighting _himself_ on fire on top of the police car. When he noticed it was burning inside he then tried to extinguish the fire.





> “Look, though I do believe I was definitely being mischievous, I wasn’t the bad apple in the crowd,” Warrington said in court. “I was entertaining the mass. I thought I did a pretty good job.”
> 
> The unemployed Cambridge man explained he is bipolar, has a Grade 7 education and medicates himself with marijuana. He is also on disability.



Uh, yeah, I'd believe his story........not.   :


----------



## Scott

From the linked article:



> The unemployed Cambridge man explained he is bipolar, has a Grade 7 education and medicates himself with marijuana. He is also on disability.



Unemployed - yes, most of us work rather than cause mayhem.

Bipolar - I think that's obvious.

Grade 7 Education - Doubtful, most Grade 7's know better

Medicated with marijuana - logical explanation but if he was high during the protests he likely would have just been sitting somewhere eating Cheesies.

Disabilty - Hello Mr fraudulent disability claims investigator, I think you have a hit here.


----------



## mariomike

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Funny, the one mayor they didn't contact?  The mayor of Huntsville.  Having spoken with him myself, he had no complaints.  And I'm sure the extra money in the area wasn't hurting anyones feelings.


I didn't see much about up north in Muskoka on the TV news. "No complaints"? Sounds like a nice place for the next G20. I am sure our Police and Paramedics will appreciate the camping trip. Even more enjoyable when they are on "golden time".  
I don't think the people of Toronto will object much if the next G20 is hosted by another Canadian city or town. 

"That, in many ways, summed up Huntsville’s relaxed and warm reception of the G8 summit, unlike the protests and vandalism that marked the G20 in Toronto. But despite its unassuming nature, this quaint cottage country town is sure of one thing: The international coverage of its tiny piece of the world will pay off sooner or later.
Its outlook has already brightened considerably as millions of federal dollars were used to repave roads, build a new community centre, improve hydro lines and even attract the University of Waterloo to house a campus in town.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/in-huntsville-the-g8-leaders-found-a-gracious-host/article1621002/


----------



## The Bread Guy

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Funny, the one mayor they didn't contact?  The mayor of Huntsville.  Having spoken with him myself, he had no complaints.  And I'm sure the extra money in the area wasn't hurting anyone's feelings.


Everybody likes infrastructure money being spent in their community, but if there was no action in Toronto, and the damage/rioting moved to Huntsville because it was the only game in town, would his answer be the same?

Some tidbits....

Busy day in bail court today:
Bail court all day (from 9am) @ 2201 Finch Ave W (nr the 400). People being released hungry, thirsty, needing clothes & transport
drivers needed at the courthouse to shuttle people who are being released and meet other needs - support, food, etc.

Toronto Police reviewing how things went (see attached for more):


> Following the conclusion of the G20 Summit, Chief William Blair has announced that the Toronto Police Service Summit Management After Action Review Team (SMAART), will study, review and report on all aspects of Summit policing in Toronto.
> 
> The purpose of the SMAART is to provide an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses in the G20 plans, and their execution, to provide a model for improved best practices in future operations.
> 
> Chief Blair said, “Considering the challenges of the G20 Summit, the Toronto Police Service and our policing partners with the RCMP, the OPP, the Canadian Forces and Peel Regional Police, worked together seamlessly. The effort, professionalism and restraint displayed by Summit police officers was outstanding ....



From the National Post:  "A summit hangover engulfed Canada’s largest city on Monday as finger pointing persisted over police measures and summit security costs and Toronto’s angry mayor pushed for federal compensation for businesses that lost money during the international gathering ...."
This from the G20 site:


> Although the Government is not legally bound to pay compensation for losses suffered as a result of international meetings held in Canada there are precedents where compensation has been provided to those impacted by security measures of previous international summits. The administration and coordination of all requests for information on Payments on an Ex Gratia Basis to mitigate adverse financial consequences as a result of extraordinary security measures put in place for the G-20 Toronto Summit is under the responsibility of the Summits Management Office of the Department of Foreign Affairs. All persons concerned are invited to read the relevant Guidelines, frequently asked questions and the Claim Form within the time-frame stated in the Guidelines. The assessment of all claims will be made in close cooperation with Audit Services Canada, a special operating agency reporting to Public Works and Government Services Canada. Payments will be administered in accordance with Treasury Board Policy on Claims and Ex Gratia Payments and the Financial Administration Act. For any other question on matters not referred to in the above-mentioned documents (Guidelines and Claim Form), the Summits Management Office has activated a toll-free telephone number: 1-877-750-6042.


What's been said before about who pays for property damage
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/815330--ottawa-won-t-cover-g20-protest-related-damage
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/ottawa-wont-offer-compensation-for-g20-property-damage/article1582971/

- edited to add following - 
Secret super-clamp-down law?  Not so super-clamp-down as first reported - from the Canadian Press:


> The five-metre rule that had people fearing arrest if they strayed too close to the G20 security perimeter appears not to have been a rule at all.
> 
> Civil libertarians were fuming after hearing Friday that the Ontario cabinet gave police the power to stop and search anyone coming within five metres of the G20 fences in Toronto for a one week period.
> 
> However, the Ministry of Community Safety says all the cabinet did was update the law that governs entry to such things as court houses to include specific areas inside the G20 fences — not outside.
> 
> A ministry spokeswoman says the change was about property, not police powers, and did not include any mention of a zone five metres outside the G20 security perimeter ....


----------



## vonGarvin

Does Mr. Warrington explain how he got his trumpet?  I mean, I'm no rocket scientist, but in the first, he's only got a smoke and some water in his hands.  Then, he has a trumpet.  And there's a Music Store there.  Did he buy a trumpet between getting burnt and getting arrested?


???


----------



## 2010newbie

Here's another video that when viewed entirely on its own will give people ammunition to dispute the police tactics. What they won't take into consideration is that we don't know what happened right before the police hemmed them in, nor do we know what involvement the people had in the other attacks. I don't know what the police were doing when they were hemming them in, but I would assume that they were holding people there while they identified culprits of previous actions and not necessarily the actions that took place when the video was shot. At least that is my impression from how they swiftly removed specific people closer to the end of the video.

The middle section of this video is kind of drawn out a bit (the camera was at his side and he was still filming), but you can still hear the conversations. It sounds like there is a police officer saying that they are the good guys and they are looking for the bad guys only so everyone should just relax, but you can't identify the speaker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aohGLp00MmU


----------



## armyvern

2010newbie said:
			
		

> I would love to see that video because in the article below he claims to be lighting _himself_ on fire on top of the police car. When he noticed it was burning inside he then tried to extinguish the fire.



I watched it live on CBC Newsworld; try the CBC site (or youtube) for a video.


----------



## Jarnhamar

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> there is video showing the 'anarchist black block tactic terrorist alien mind absorbing demonically possessed...' sorry where was i? they had new clothes, nice, expensive boots... all the same... maybe mil issue... *anarchists without jobs can't afford too often...*


Ever see the kind of equipment that airsofters (look it up) use?  I wonder how a 15 year old has military "issue" gear that would make a trained soldiers mouth water. Oh wait one word. Parents.



> The difference between martial arts and three weeks of killing techniques is not about who can kill the easiest, because you can teach that pretty quickly; its about being able to defend yourself, and knowing WHEN AND WHY to use those techniques; or even TO HAVE THE SKILL TO OVERPOWER SOMEONE WITHOUT HURTING THEM.  When all you care about is kill ratio, and policy makers' troops are only so much fodder, these techniques are simlpy TIME CONSUMING and INEFFICIENT.  Who care if you make killing machines who can't be reintegrtated into socitiety, and could wake up in the middle of the night and kill a loved one on reflex before they know its just some ptsd flashback nightmare?


I can't call you retarded because it's probably a personal attack. So I'll ask. 
ARE you retarded?
I want you to take your know how about killing someone easily, stand infront of the mirror and karate chop yourself in the neck -then post the video here.


----------



## 57Chevy

Machetes, body armour seized from G20 protesters; Toronto police to review actions:

TORONTO — After announcing Toronto police will review all aspects of how officers handled security during the G20 summit, Chief William Blair displayed Tuesday an array of weapons and tools obtained from arrested protesters.

The recovered items included body armour, sledge hammers, machetes, an electric drill, saws, crowbars, shields, aluminum bats, dog repellent, bamboo rods and bottles of hot sauce.

"No one should be so naive as to think these people were there for the purpose of lawful protest," Blair said during a Toronto news conference.

(article continues)

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Machetes+body+armour+seized+from+protesters+Toronto+police+review+actions/3214979/story.html#ixzz0sGTCnyFh

           (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## The Bread Guy

57Chevy said:
			
		

> The recovered items included body armour, sledge hammers, machetes, an electric drill, saws, crowbars, shields, aluminum bats, dog repellent, bamboo rods and bottles of hot sauce.


All to build a better, tastier, dog-repelled world, right?


----------



## mariomike

Another video of the repatriation of Sgt. MacNeil.
Scene: The Coroner's Office:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTfnjHRDud4


----------



## WingsofFury

As a resident of Toronto, and probably one of only a small handful who believe in paying any cost when it comes to protection from idiots (especially those dressed in black), I think that the police did a perfect job on the weekend.

It really was a damned if you do something (like they did on Sunday - which I think was fair and even handed), or damned if you don't do something (Saturday - which I also think was fair given that the idiotic protestors kept changing back into civilian clothes after setting cars ablaze).

Kudos to all security forces involved, and anyone who is requesting a "formal inquiry" needs something along the lines of a frontal labotomy to ensure that they have some semblence of a brain left after being indoctrinated by a very aggressive left wing theology.

On a side note...

Thanks to the Griff that flew over my home at about 12:30pm EST today heading east - most appreciated!


----------



## GAP

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Machetes, body armour seized from G20 protesters; Toronto police to review actions:
> 
> The recovered items included body armour, sledge hammers, machetes, an electric drill, saws, crowbars, shields, aluminum bats, dog repellent, bamboo rods and bottles of hot sauce.



I guess the police auction this year will have some more interesting objects.....I dare the twits to claim their seized items...... ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

....there's always these hot spots:


> .... June 30, 2010 in Hamilton
> 6:00pm at Hamilton Police Headquarters
> 155 King William Street
> 
> June 30, 2010 in Windsor
> 6:00pm at Windsor Police Headquarters
> 150 Goyeau Street
> 
> July 1, 2010 in Montreal
> 1pm carré Phillips,
> St. Catherine
> 
> The events of the past week in Toronto have been unprecedented in Canadian history. Over 900 people were arrested, the biggest mass arrests ever in Canada, for daring to protest against the destructive policies of the G20.
> 
> Protesters and local residents were subjected to violent baton attacks, snatch squads, tear gas and rubber bullets. Sleeping people have been pulled from their homes at gunpoint in the middle of the night. Many have been beaten. People who have been arrested have been strip-searched and held in cages, facing long delays in obtaining legal support. We have heard numerous accounts of sexual abuse by police from women who were arrested. Journalists have been punched, arrested and had their equipment broken.
> 
> On the streets of Toronto, the mask of “liberal democracy” has slipped off and the police reminded us of the State's willingness to use blatant violence against its own population in the face of popular dissent. And thanks to citizen journalists, the alternative media and even some in the corporate media, the truth of what happened in Toronto is slowly emerging.
> 
> In order to make sure that the actions of the police state are fully exposed, we must keep up the pressure on the police and the government.
> 
> We must also publicly demonstrate our solidarity with all those arrested so that they are released as quickly as possible and charges are dropped against all those caught up in the net of the police state.
> 
> In Toronto, solidarity rallies outside detention centres and police stations are already taking place. But just as police forces from across the province converged on Toronto for the G20, so our resistance must spread out from the epicentre of oppression to every corner of the province.
> 
> Common Cause thus calls on all those concerned to take the fight back across the province and across the country.
> 
> Starting this Wednesday, June 30, we are calling for solidarity rallies outside police headquarters in as many cities as possible.
> 
> Our message will be clear:
> 
> Free the Toronto 900!
> 
> Fight back against the police state! We are putting you under surveillance!
> 
> Build the resistance against the G20! Build the resistance against austerity!
> 
> Build the general strike!


The "Toronto 900" must be a WHOLE lot less by now - but why let facts get in the way of a great slogan/meme?


----------



## vonGarvin

Sexual Abuse?  FUCK RIGHT OFF!
As for the "heavy handed" approach.  Well, when thugs wish to take over, they resort to stuff like this:






Our response should look like this:





And not like this:








Even Pierre Trudeau, one of our most liberal Prime Ministers "gets it" when it comes to the danger that thugs expose to our society:
(From the famous impromtu interview during the October Crisis of 1970)


> Tim Ralfe: Which must be half of the population of the country, in one way or another. I explained it badly I think, but what you're talking about to me is choices, and my choice is to live in a society that is free and democratic, which means that you don't have people with guns running around in it.
> Pierre Trudeau: Correct.
> Ralfe: And one of the things I have to give up for that choice is the fact that people like you may be kidnapped.
> Trudeau: Sure, but this isn't my choice, obviously. You know, I think it is more important to get rid of those who are committing violence against the total society and those who are trying to run the government through a parallel power by establishing their authority by kidnapping and blackmail. And I think it is our duty as a government to protect government officials and important people in our society against being used as tools in this blackmail. Now, you don't agree to this but I am sure that once again with hindsight, you would probably have found it preferable if Mr. Cross and Mr. Laporte had been protected from kidnapping, which they weren't because these steps we're taking now weren't taken. But even with your hindsight I don't see how you can deny that.
> Ralfe: No, I still go back to the choice that you have to make in the kind of society that you live in.
> Trudeau: Yes, well there are a lot of bleeding hearts around who just don't like to see people with helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, *but it is more important to keep law and order in the society than to be worried about weak-kneed people * who don't like the looks of ...
> Ralfe: At any cost? How far would you go with that? How far would you extend that?
> Trudeau: Well, just watch me.
> Ralfe: At reducing civil liberties? To that extent?
> Trudeau: To what extent?
> Ralfe: Well, if you extend this and you say, ok, you're going to do anything to protect them, does this include wire-tapping, reducing other civil liberties in some way?
> Trudeau: Yes, I* think the society must take every means at its disposal to defend itself against the emergence of a parallel power which defies the elected power in this country and I think that goes to any distance. So long as there is a power in here which is challenging the elected representative of the people I think that power must be stopped and I think it's only, I repeat, weak-kneed bleeding hearts who are afraid to take these measures*.


----------



## PMedMoe

Yep, say what you want about Trudeau, he did come up with some good comments.  I've always liked that one; "Just watch me."

Watch the interview here:  http://archives.cbc.ca/war_conflict/civil_unrest/clips/610/


----------



## mariomike

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As for the "heavy handed" approach.  Well, when thugs wish to take over, they resort to stuff like this:



We had "Swastika Riots" right here in Toronto at Christie Pits - Willowvale Park- on the Bloor Line:
"While groups of Jewish and Gentile youths wielded fists and clubs in a series of violent scraps for possession of a white flag bearing a swastika symbol at Willowvale Park last night, a crowd of more than 10,000 citizens, excited by cries of ‘Heil Hitler’ became suddenly a disorderly mob and surged wildly about the park and surrounding streets, trying to gain a view of the actual combatants, which soon developed in violence and intensity of racial feeling into one of the worst free-for-alls ever seen in the city. 
Scores were injured, many requiring medical and hospital attention... Heads were opened, eyes blackened and bodies thumped and battered as literally dozens of persons, young or old, many of them non-combatant spectators, were injured more or less seriously by a variety of ugly weapons in the hands of wild-eyed and irresponsible young hoodlums, both Jewish and Gentile".:
Toronto Star 
August 17, 1933

G20:
"Over 900 people were arrested, the biggest mass arrests ever in Canada,"

Prior to this weekend, the biggest mass arrests in Canadian history were the FLQ Crisis in 1970. 497 individuals were arrested or detained. 

Followed by "Operation Soap" February 5, 1981: "Metro policemen, many armed with crowbars and hammers, swooped down on four downtown Toronto steambaths last night and charged 253 men with being found-ins at bawdy houses." "An additional 20 men were charged as keepers of common bawdy houses." Two were charged with "buggery".
"Operation Soap" Toronto: 1981:
Setting fires and breaking streetcar windows:
http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/rights_freedoms/topics/599-3239/
The Star in those days named names, ages and home addresses of those charged.
"These evolved into Toronto's current Gay Pride Week, which is now one of the world's largest gay pride festivals"


----------



## maikeru333

So essentially, I owe all my freedoms to the military?  Fair enough.  Why weren't you protecting our freedoms at the the G20 summit?


I guess the next time there is a sports event related riot, causing damage, we will expect the same amount of cracking down from the police?


I did not say I have any of this kind of martial or fighting training.


""No one should be so naive as to think these people were there for the purpose of lawful protest," Blair said during a Toronto news conference."
Wow, what a sweeping statement.  Did he just say none of the protesters were there peacefully?
The way you give the quote, that is how I would interpret it.
Interestingly, after the incident with activist being killed trying to bring aid to Gaza, evidence was manufactured _found_ that _proved_ they were all violent terrorists (therefore not deserving of human rights, and legitimizing breaking international law and opening fire on these ships, BEFORE boarding them, during a night operation), also.  This shows wide use of certain tactics, in case this is not clear, and that these tactics have proven effective in general, and have been refined through practice. But my simple math says 75 (supposedly anarchists, even though most self-described anarchists don't even know what it means, let alone the people using it here) does not equal 900; even if you try to factor in a few agents provacateur, who, I'm guessing, did not get detained, and on which point people on this forum merely applauded, rather than debated.


It's interesting how someone said OCAP don't have the right to protest, because there was a military funeral procession... and suggested that EVERYTHING that was going on, all these protests, simply boiled down to trying to disrupt the funeral.  I understand how that may be what is important to you, but in doing so, in one sweeping statement, you dismiss the legitimate protests of more than 50000 people, gathered from all over, including outside the country who knew nothing about that, many of whom did not know each other before they got there, and many who probably don't know each other still, unless they shared a cell, perhaps.  But yep, of course its all about you.  The activists are out to get YOU, probably know you name and number, posting private things back and forth behind the scenes to their friends on various forums.  Because activists like to work in secret, and wouldn't want anyone to know about their issues?  Strength in isolation?  For clarity, I am using sarcasm here.  As a minor related note, it was a major discussion point that, while police are normally legally required to give name and badge number, none of this was available from the ISU forces who were doing this; nor was it given when asked.

It is nice to know that police chief Blair has encouraged the g20 security to investigate itself.
I would not define this as a fair and impartial inquiry, however.

semper fi.  kinda means you're not afraid of anything, right?  Like saying it how it really is, and not being afraid your buddies won't have your back if you disagree with the 'dominant paradigm' of folk in the military, the 'right wing theology' and bravado, the mythology that boys don't (or shouldn't?) cry, or get broken.  I know people in the military too, and regardless of whether they are willing to speak their minds on some issues with 'their buddies' there, I know they are capable of thinking.  Even free thinking, where you think about things, and in ways, other than simply how you are told.  Practicing what we know, praxis, is not always easy though.

My intention for posting was not an attack on the military, but it seems the post since my last people have mostly only either applauded the ISU actions, or ignored those points entirely, when not feebly scrabbling for links to support police chief Blair's glorious party.  Police chief Blair has his own history which I will leave out.  In essence the argument I am hearing is that either all the protesters and media who are talking about this AND WERE THERE are lying and fabricating evidence of hastily uploaded unedited videos, or the government and other officials are lying; and with this, I agree.
Someone is lying.  Someone is supporting the lie.  I am not aware of any oaths of journalistic integrity that are given, requiring media to be factual, or specifically laws that would arrest those journalists for not being so, although part of this comes simply from a court case in the US involving investigative journalists who investigated the cancer causes effects of posilac, including through the milk, a bovine growth hormone monsanto produces.  Fox news was threatened with lawsuits; the investigative journalists were fired; in the suit for wrongful dismissal, based on suppressing this important health evidence, the courts ruled that news was 'entertainment' and not required to be 'factual'.  So I hope you find this 'entertaining', but more importantly I hope you are able to find some truth in it, somewhere, that maybe you would not find elsewhere easily.

I say this in part, because I wonder if the most vocal voices on this forum, in fact represent the majority.  I do not know, but I choose to believe it doesn't not, and hope some are willing to consider other possibilities, because in the end it may be the difference between the military and other security agencies in Canada helping to GIVE Canadians freedom, - or to take it away.

Thanks for patiently reading through my frustrations, many generically directed toward what I see as military mentality.  My personal experiences have biased me, not necessarily in an untruthful way, but sometimes to react emotionally instead of to focus on the issues, and on solutions, and the people who continue to follow this thread may well think it is important, and I don't want to imply our Forces care any less about Canada or Canadians, even if we have different ways of going about doing it (and serve our country in different ways).

I know there are people who put themselves through a lot to do what they believe is right; that perhaps most Canadians will never get the opportunity to know about.  That doesn't invalidate my anger, or what I think is wrong with the system; but I am duly acknowledging that there is another side to the story, and people, including activists, sometimes are quick to blame, without understanding circumstances.  But that is what forums are for; people can talk about things, and hear each other's view points, and maybe not take our assumptions about the world for granted so easily. (Including my own.)

It is ok to disagree.  It is ok to let people make up their own minds.  I hope compassion for the suffering of others is one of the values people use in making their judgments on this issue.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Err, you DO know the name of this site, right?  Of course there's a military mentality here.  Not to your liking?  Someone will be along shortly to guide you gently toward the exit, I hope.


----------



## vonGarvin

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> So essentially, I owe all my freedoms to the military?  Fair enough.  *Why weren't you protecting our freedoms at the the G20 summit?*


At the risk of getting banned.

Go fuck yourself.  Fucking troll.  

Take your quotes out of context, use half-truths and please, name for me five groups who aired their opinions in Toronto, and what were their main points?  Can't do it off the top of your head?  That's a shame, really, because those thugs stole their chance to have their voices heard.

Read the National Defence Act and inform yourself on the use of the Canadian Forces in Canada.  But, for now, I repeat:


Go Fuck yourself.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Silly me - I can't resist.



			
				maikeru333 said:
			
		

> Someone is lying.  Someone is supporting the lie.  I am not aware of any oaths of journalistic integrity that are given, requiring media to be factual, or specifically laws that would arrest those journalists for not being so ....


Same for "alternative" media, so who do YOU believe?



			
				maikeru333 said:
			
		

> I say this in part, because I wonder if the most vocal voices on this forum, in fact represent the majority.  I do not know, but I choose to believe it doesn't not, and hope some are willing to consider other possibilities


This is a privately-operated forum, representing those who post to it - I'm guessing rabble.ca doesn't necessarily represent the majority, either.



			
				maikeru333 said:
			
		

> it may be the difference between the military and other security agencies in Canada helping to GIVE Canadians freedom, - or to take it away.


The military and police don't "give" or "take" freedoms, they protect Canadians and enforce the rule of law, the laws that those you vote for made.  Not happy with the rules?  Have to deal with those who made them.  You want police to enforce only some rules?  If that's the case, what about if you end up being on the short end of the stick when the partial enforcement thing happens?



			
				maikeru333 said:
			
		

> It is ok to disagree.  It is ok to let people make up their own minds.


But only if they agree with you, right?  If you don't like the "mentality" here, you don't have to read/post - I'm guessing nobody's forcing you to be here.  You know what GTFO means?



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> ******* troll.


:+1:


----------



## 57Chevy

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> It is nice to know that police chief Blair has encouraged the g20 security to investigate itself.
> I would not define this as a fair and impartial inquiry, however.



On the news......Police Chief Blair calls members of the black block anarchists a terrorist group. 
And from what I read above
" Common Cause thus calls on all those concerned to take the fight back across the province and across the country."
and,
"We are putting you under surveillance!"
 makes them exactly that......"terrorists"

Found the link:  http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/top_cop_calls_rioters_terrorists_promises_review/4432f0fc


----------



## aesop081

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> Why weren't you protecting our freedoms at the the G20 summit?



The military was certainly there, helping to protect everyone.




> Did he just say none of the protesters were there peacefully?



Nope, thats not what he said. You have to work on listening to the whole thing, not just the part you wish to take out of context.




> I would not define this as a fair and impartial inquiry, however.



Nothing done by the police or government would be considered as fair and impartial in your eyes, just admit it.


----------



## Teeps74

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> So essentially, I owe all my freedoms to the military?  Fair enough.  Why weren't you protecting our freedoms at the the G20 summit?



We did not have to, as the police did an outstanding job in protecting your rights and freedoms, namely the freedom to be free from black clad black bloc leftist terrorists.

Please, do not let the door hit you on your way out.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Ok, here it is. [according to Monk's world] 8)

Next time we have a prior knowledge that there will be protests the communication should go something like this.

We give you free reign to march, chant, and argue your point and you agree to be peaceful, however, be aware that anyone seen causing damage, bearing a weapon, etc. will be taken out by those folks up there on the roof line.

Any group that* truly* wishes to protest peacefully and* truly* wishes their voices be heard instead of the shouting and confusion that drowns out the message would have no problem agreeing to that.
Preset the rules, preset the standards, and carry them out...................


----------



## Teeps74

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> My intention for posting was not an attack on the military,



And yet, your every word attacks us. Nice.

Have a nice day eace:.


----------



## Teeps74

Here's the thing that our new pet troll just does not get, nor is it ever likely to get. The violence visited on us by the black bloc thugs completely drowned out any visage of legitimate concerns the various groups had.

Yes, there are concerns involving the governments of the G8 and G20, and we have to find ways to get them listening. But at the end of the day, burning down the city is not the way to do it, and in point of fact, is guaranteed to cause all of us who are not domestic terrorists to turn a deaf ear towards you.

Point, find a peaceful way to protest. Protest groups, kick out the black bloc and do not let them in. Learn to communicate with the masses, instead of trying to intimidate the masses, because the police does work for the majority, not the minority (read, by way of elections, the government elected by the people has the power to create and amend laws which the police then enforce, ergo, they work for the majority).

The police are an extension of the people. They do not create laws, they enforce them. We all (all voters) have a hand in creating laws by voting for those who best represent us. This is the great thing about our system, we all have immense power to influence the system... Damn shame that the majority of citizens in our country choose to not exercise that immense power.


----------



## mariomike

If interested, here is another Toronto riot from 1992:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WZtRw9II2s
Dozens were injured. One policeman was hit ( not seriously injured ) by glass from a Molotov cocktail on Yonge St., near Yorkville.

Got my T-shirt for that one, and Alice Cooper 1980 ( 18 people hospitalized, including 5 policemen ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrzO-KTkh-4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXO-lBDadzc

There is a photo of a trashed OPP cruiser from a rock concert riot at Ontario Place the month before, but the photo was too large to load in the post.  

Shows why the CNE is the better place for these things. Keeps trouble contained. It seems like it would to me, but I am not an expert. It is where the city wanted G20 located.
Caribana begins at Exhibition Place and moves west along Lakeshore Boulevard. They used to run it right through downtown.
Crowd-control fencing is up in the CNE-Lakeshore area for the Indy motor-race. There are security cameras all along the route.
Gay Pride parade is contained between Bloor and Gerard and east of Yonge. 

G20 people roamed all over the place. Queen's Park, Yonge, Police H.Q. on College St., City Hall, University Ave., Simcoe, Dundas Square, Bay, King, Spadina....it was hard to keep up with them! At any rate, I don't think they came close to breaching the Convention Centre. ( Which I assume was their mission? ) They had to lock down the TTC, Eaton Centre and the downtown hospitals. They covered a lot of ground. They camped in Allan Gardens in the east ( always a popular OCAP rallying point ) , and had some sort of western command post - base camp, if you will, in Parkdale near Dufferin St. Perhaps under the Sunnyside overpasses? Lots of homeless people used to camp there before being cleared out in 1988 for the G7. They were an eyesore from the Gardiner Expressway. They really cleaned it up for President Reagan.   They had their meeting at the same convention centre as this time. I don't recall any protests, but I think I shuttled more winos out to the detox centres that week than any other. Did our bit to help "Showcase the city." In fact, they came up with a bizarre plan to solve that problem, but nothing ever came of it. I don't think I ever saw Toronto look more beautiful than it did that summer.:
http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/international_politics/clips/17479/&ref=rss

I guess there was a protest for G7. The Berlin Wall was still up too. Same year Canada hosted the Winter Olympic games in Calgary. Soviet troops were still in Afganistan. G7 Toronto issued this statement on the subject: "We welcome the beginning of the Soviet withdrawal of its occupation troops from Afghanistan. It must be total and apply to the entire country. The Afghan people must be able to choose their government freely.”
It was a very different era than today. 
"a four-meter-high steel and concrete fence surrounding the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, military helicopters hovering overhead and sharpshooters on Toronto’s rooftops. Total security costs for the summit were $29.3 million." The story says 200 people were arrested. 

G7 security:
http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/international_politics/clips/17471/&ref=rss


----------



## 57Chevy

Teeps
         Good post. I think the majority that you make mention has spoken, and we can safely call them "black block terrorists" now ;D


----------



## Teeps74

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wanna draw media attention without violence and balloons full of crap?  Want to show your commitment to a cause?  This from the G&M:



So, is there anything wrong with this kind of protest? This is an image I had in my head for the past weekend of what I hoped for. A peaceful walk, which garnered the attention of one of our national news papers.

Thanks for this milnews.


----------



## Larkvall

> The police are an extension of the people. They do not create laws, they enforce them. We all (all voters) have a hand in creating laws by voting for those who best represent us. This is the great thing about our system, we all have immense power to influence the system...



One good example of this is MPs changing their minds and allowing the auditor general to look at parliament's books. No windows were smashed and no cars were set on fire.


----------



## vonGarvin

*WIN:*





*FAIL:*





Now, which was most effective?


----------



## 57Chevy

This is what terrorists take away from democracy

What the media ignored: 25,000 peacefully demonstrate against G20 policies in Toronto:
Watch:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mL46t8H4oU


----------



## Retired AF Guy

I was reading todays Kingston Whig Standard and they had an article about two Queen's students who were part of a group who were bussed in for march in support of the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty. The article had this little quote from one of the students:



> That afternoon, a smaller group of anarchist protesters called the Black Bloc began breaking windows and set a number of police cars on fire along Bay and Queen streets. Day said this was widely mischaracterized by the media.
> 
> *"I don't believe that property destruction is violence,* I believe that it's illegal," he said. "*To call it violent is very oppressive.*"


 (My Hi-lights)

 Full article here. 

This reminds me of a quote attributed to Maude Barlow after the Summit of the America's riots in Quebec City eight years ago. When she was asked about the damage caused to several business,' she replied (I paraphrase) "It's just property." But, heaven forbid, if someone threw a brick through *THEIR *window, they would be screaming to have the thrower crucified on the front lawn! 

I just shake my head in despair.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> "I don't believe that property destruction is violence, I believe that it's illegal," he said. "To call it violent is very oppressive."


Until the student's kit gets destroyed, right?   :


----------



## vonGarvin

I know that they go to University, but it _is_ only Queen's:



> vi·o·lent   /ˈvaɪələnt/  Show Spelled
> –adjective
> 1. acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force: a violent earthquake.
> 2. caused by injurious or destructive force: a violent death.
> 3. intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain; violent cold.
> 4. roughly or immoderately vehement or ardent: violent passions.
> 5. furious in impetuosity, energy, etc.: violent haste.
> 6. of, pertaining to, or constituting a distortion of meaning or fact.





> op·pres·sive   /əˈprɛsɪv/
> –adjective
> 1. burdensome, unjustly harsh, or tyrannical: an oppressive king; oppressive laws.
> 2. causing discomfort by being excessive, intense, elaborate, etc.: oppressive heat.
> 3. distressing or grievous: oppressive sorrows.



Methinks they err.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I don't believe that property destruction is violence, I believe that it's illegal," he said. "To call it violent is very oppressive."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until the student's kit gets destroyed, right?   :
Click to expand...


As long as its someone else's  :nana:


----------



## vonGarvin

THIS  is the best protest of the whole weekend!

"Why are you closed?"  "What gives you the right?"

:rofl:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> THIS  is the best protest of the whole weekend!
> 
> "Why are you closed?"  "What gives you the right?"
> 
> :rofl:


"We want to shop!"  "It's just a spectacle to you?"  Retailer rage - thanks for sharing that!


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Technoviking said:
			
		

> THIS  is the best protest of the whole weekend!
> 
> "Why are you closed?"  "What gives you the right?"
> 
> :rofl:



That dude has THE CRAZY in his eyes!  Forget the CC 31 arrest, MHA Form 1 apprehension!


----------



## mariomike

"Summit moved from CNE to downtown over Toronto’s objections, mayor says:

OTTAWA – Mayor David Miller says that Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government routinely ignored or discounted advice from Toronto in the run-up to the G20 summit – including Miller’s own, repeated pleas to hold the event at the grounds of Exhibition Place. 

The resulting chaos may have proved to be a lesson, Miller says, since federal officials are consulting now with the city on the issue of compensation for damages to people and property in violent protests at the G20.

But the mayor is still waiting to hear from anyone at the federal level – or the provincial level, for that matter – with statements of support or sympathy for the affected residents of Toronto.

“I understand why the Prime Minister might not have called on Saturday or Sunday, but I would have thought his office would have said something by now. Same with the premier, given that we’re the capital of Ontario,” Miller said.

In a blunt interview with the Star on Tuesday, Miller said that when he originally endorsed the choice of Toronto for the G20 event last December, he had been told it was being held on the CNE grounds, far away from the downtown core that was ravaged by protests and police confrontations on the weekend.

But, as with the decision to announce Toronto as the summit site, Miller says that Toronto officials were not consulted either when the event was moved to the convention centre earlier this year.

In fact, the mayor said he’d argued strenuously against the convention-centre venue at a briefing he received on Ottawa’s summit plans. Miller recounts events this way:

“The federal government had been speaking through the RCMP to Toronto police because they were working with them on the G8-G20 in Huntsville,” he said. At some point last fall, Miller said, Toronto police officials gave him a heads-up that the G20 could be held in Toronto.

“Subsequent to that, the federal government began negotiating with Exhibition Place and from my perspective, had reached an agreement with Exhibition Place – certainly an agreement in principle.

It was after this, Miller said, that he received a perfunctory call from the Prime Minister’s Office, asking whether he had any objections to the G20 being held in Toronto.

“We indicated no, on the understanding at the time that an agreement had been reached to host it at Exhibition Place.”

The federal government announced Toronto as the G20 site in early December, without specifying formally where the event would be held. But Miller said he soon started hearing – again, indirectly, that there was talk of moving the event to the Metro Convention Centre, in the heart of downtown. 

“We pushed very strongly to change that decision, because I was very worried that you couldn’t have an event like this in the middle of downtown Toronto,” said Miller. He said he made this argument in a private briefing with federal officials preparing the summit, but his advice was ignored.

Miller says this fits with a repeated pattern of the Harper government and the Prime Minister himself.

“It’s very clear,” he said. “Institutionally, the federal government deals with provinces, not cities. And under Mr. Harper, I don’t mean this from a partisan perspective, but he reads the constitution literally, so he will deal with the province. If there’s an event in Toronto, he will deal with the province.”

Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said on Monday that the Exhibition grounds had been ruled out because it had no hotels for the leaders, and additional challenges that would create to travel and security in and out of the areas. 

Miller, who did his own walkabout of damaged stores and buildings on Queen Street on Tuesday, said he’s cautiously optimistic that the federal government has learned to work with Toronto in the wake of the weekend events, and he’s been assuring people that compensation negotiations are under way.

For now, the federal government is only saying that it will deal with compensation on a case-by-case basis. But there is a precedent: After violent protests caused damage during the Summit of the Americas in Quebec City in 2001, Ottawa announced a $2 million fund to compensate merchants, residents and non-profit organizations for damages.

Harper spokesperson Dimitri Soudas said moving the Toronto summit a few blocks away would not have changed the destructive outcome.

“Whether you hold it two blocks to the east or two blocks to the west in downtown Toronto or two blocks to the north or two blocks to the south these people have a clear intention and that is to be violent and cause destruction. It wouldn’t have made any difference in terms of the intentions that these hooligans and thugs have,” he said.

He noted that when the G8 was held in a the remote area of Kananaskis, Alberta in 2002 protesters still gathered 100 kilometres away in Calgary.

Soudas, said he did know whether the original plans called for the summit to be held at the Exhibition grounds. “I honestly don’t know because I don’t do site selection,” he said.

Soudas added that he knew nothing of quiet talks going on between Ottawa and Toronto with respect to compensation for shopkeepers whose store were damaged during Saturday’s rioting in the downtown.

Soudas said there has been a compensation package for summjts for nine years now and any shopkeepers or any other businesses will have to apply through that, http://g20.gc.ca/important
http://www.thestar.com/article/830274--toronto-s-advice-ignored-on-g20-miller-says


----------



## 57Chevy

Maybe next time they should consider any one of the Canadian abandoned extreme northern sites and install an ice rink for the fun  ;D


----------



## Journeyman

mariomike said:
			
		

> _Mayor David Miller says that..._
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government routinely ignored or discounted advice from Toronto


Yet one more fine example of representative government to come out of the G20. 

Just as most Canadians think the protesters and their causes are quackery, (for those who actually _have_ causes beyond vandalism), most Canadian voters routinely ignore or discount Toronto.

Go Democracy!    ;D



Edited because, although I doubt there was any misunderstanding by any forum readers, I care about peoples' sensitivities   :


...oh, and thank you for reaffirming why 'Toronto the whiney' gets ignored


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://news.aol.ca/ca/article/torontos-top-cop-admits-controversial-g20-security-rule-didnt/19536721?icid=main|canada-toshiba|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.ca%2Fca%2Farticle%2Ftorontos-top-cop-admits-controversial-g20-security-rule-didnt%2F19536721



> Toronto police Chief Bill Blair has admitted there never was a rule that allowed police to search and detain any protesters caught within five metres of the security zone at the G20 summit.
> 
> The so-called special law introduced just prior to the summit supposedly gave police sweeping new powers to arrest anyone caught near the security fence who was unwilling to be subjected to a police search.





> When asked Tuesday if there actually was a five-metre rule, Blair smiled and said, "No, but I was trying to keep the criminals out," the Canadian Press reported.



I can't say I'm very impressed with a police force that lies to me or makes up laws.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding: Reply #592

Don't put words in my mouth. 
That was the mayor you quoted. You did not quote his complete sentence: "OTTAWA – Mayor David Miller says that Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government routinely ignored or discounted advice from Toronto in the run-up to the G20 summit – including Miller’s own, repeated pleas to hold the event at the grounds of Exhibition Place."


----------



## Davionn

Check out the video on this link:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/G20/2010/06/30/14565246.html

headline:
*"Looter taught a lesson at G20 

Do you know this guy? 

By QMI Agency "*


"Don't steal!"   - I wish there were more like him on Saturday!


----------



## Fusaki

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> http://news.aol.ca/ca/article/torontos-top-cop-admits-controversial-g20-security-rule-didnt/19536721?icid=main|canada-toshiba|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.ca%2Fca%2Farticle%2Ftorontos-top-cop-admits-controversial-g20-security-rule-didnt%2F19536721
> 
> I can't say I'm very impressed with a police force that lies to me or makes up laws.



Yeah, no sh|t.

I didn't do the things I did in Afghanistan so our police services could lie to us.

I went downtown on Sunday the 27th to see for myself what was going on.  While I did see the vast majority of cops and protestors handle themselves in an ethical manner, I have major issues with individual authorities and activists who did not.


----------



## mariomike

The Canadian Press:
"McGuinty blamed for confusion on secret law: TORONTO - Ontario's opposition parties say Premier Dalton McGuinty is to blame for confusion surrounding police powers to stop, search and detain people during the G20 summit.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100630/national/g20_secret_law


----------



## Fusaki

Here's the thing though:

I personally saw at least a half dozen people searched and arrested _well outside_ of the security zone, and nowhere near any unruly protest.

To be fair, I have strong suspicions that at least one or two of those people were actually criminals who had been engaging in Black Bloc tactics.  It's also important to note that I wasn't listening in on the police radio net, and I don't know what kind of information was being provided by plainclothes police who were more than likely in the area or those police who had infiltrated criminal groups.

That said, I saw a number of situations where police, standing on streetcorners outside of the security zone and seemingly not engaged in the search for _specific individuals,_ stop and search what seemed to be random people who were doing nothing more than wearing black, carrying backpacks, long hair, piercings, and tattoos.

I'm usually quick to defend the guy on the ground who's making the call.  I've been involved in real-life high-risk security operations and I know that there's usually more to every situation than meets the eye.  It's from that perspective that I'll come on here and say that on Sunday I personally saw police action that I believe to be _just plain wrong._


----------



## Container

Hi Wonderbread.

Firstly, I wasn't at the G8/G20 so I cant speak directly to what you saw. You also aren't that specific about what you believe to be "just plain wrong"- so Im going to try and answer back in generality about what I THINK you may have saw. 

As a police officer I routinely stop people I am suspicious of. During those stops I try and ascertain as much about an individual as I can. Furthermore, I also (depending on circumstance) talk my way into their backpacks or pockets. This is called a consent search and it is a completely legitimate police tactic. Police become pretty slick about them and I am proud to say that I'm almost as good as a used car salesman to get that consent. 

The police officers in this area would be at a heightend level of suspicion of pretty much everyone who could potentially be a nogoodnik. I would expect that the individuals searched (consent or otherwise were of a certain........type and not just regular folks walking their babies? I do not support arbitrary search and detainment. I do however use everything Im legally allowed to do to ensure that I am get my job done. Within a framework as supported by law.

With regards to this controversial non-law. Ive been looking for the actual law as its written to have a look at how this may have been misinterpreted but I can't find it. Its seems shady at best so im weary until I see the actual law- Blair is pretty straightlaced for this kind of nonsense.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Container said:
			
		

> With regards to this controversial non-law. Ive been looking for the actual law as its written to have a look at how this may have been misinterpreted but I can't find it. Its seems shady at best so im weary until I see the actual law- Blair is pretty straightlaced for this kind of nonsense.


Here you go:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p55_e.htm
Welcome to Army.ca - looking forward to more voices from LE sharing what they can of the REST of the story.


----------



## mariomike

More G20 related fall-out:

"Demonstrators storm police pride event: Queer community protesters accuse police of homophobia: About 100 people protesting alleged homophobia, sexism and abuse by police during the G20 summit weekend loudly disrupted a Pride Week event hosted by Toronto Police chief Bill Blair Tuesday evening. They stormed the 519 Church Street Community Centre after trying to block Blair’s entry into the building.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/830211--demonstrators-storm-police-pride-event

( Incidentally, I still remember that same place when it was The 48th Highlanders legion hall. )


----------



## 2010newbie

Container said:
			
		

> I do however use everything Im legally allowed to do to ensure that I am get my job done. Within a framework as supported by law.
> 
> With regards to this controversial non-law. Ive been looking for the actual law as its written to have a look at how this may have been misinterpreted but I can't find it. Its seems shady at best so im weary until I see the actual law- Blair is pretty straightlaced for this kind of nonsense.



With Blair stating that the law didn't exist then I will assume it doesn't exist in the context that they used it, which brings up my question below.



> When asked Tuesday if there actually was a five-metre rule given the ministry's clarification, Chief Bill Blair smiled and said, "No, but I was trying to keep the criminals out."
> 
> Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/06/29/g20-chief-fence571.html#ixzz0sNDzacwc



I wonder how far down the chain of command they were aware of this? I _assume_ the front-line officers were not aware of this interpretation. Being a Police Officer and using everything legally in your power to uphold the law, how would you react if you found out after the fact the tactics you used were not actually legal? I'm asking because I think I would feel betrayed in the same situation. Also, if I was instructed about additional short-term powers, utilized those powers, and then found it is was not a factual interpretation of the law, I would have less trust in my CoC as well. What about increased liability on the front-line officer? Is that possible?


----------



## stukirkpatrick

I too, wonder how much the front-line toronto police were told about this law.  What if all the observed searching/identification techniques was done using traditional police powers only?  Has anyone made a complaint yet that they were searched by officers citing this specific law?

The law wasn't an issue to me, as I had no power to enforce provincial/municipal acts and was never officially told about it.  I only found out about it from the news.


----------



## vonGarvin

*OK, EVERYBODY STOP!*
So the police searched some people, and they arrested others.  Big frigging deal.  Do we need to be reminded that thugs were roaming the streets, setting cars on fire and smashing windows?  Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. 

*ENOUGH!*


----------



## Container

*" A guard or peace officer,

(a) may require any person entering or attempting to enter any public work or any approach thereto to furnish his or her name and address, to identify himself or herself and to state the purpose for which he or she desires to enter the public work, in writing or otherwise"*

I finished perusing the act from which "the rule" came. While it is true that there is no "5 meter" rule. The act outlines that demands can be made of anyone entering or attempting to enter a public work as well as an "approach thereto".  Armed with this ambiguity I imagine someone higher up the food chain determined that for the purposes of enforcing this section they would consider "5 meters" to be the general rule of thumb when measuring out the fences approach. The onus would be on the police officer to prove that the reason for being inside the zone was to enter the public work- and in that instance they could make the demand.

2010newbie-

At the peril of making excuses for what appears to be at best crappy public relations- many times laws are passed and its up to the police to determine the "best practices" around how to enforce them. The laws are eventually brought before court and the police practices  are put on "trial". The courts tell the police to go pound sand if they are doing something inappropriate or affirm that its reasonable.

This is especially true when it comes to municipal bylaws which can be just absolutely poor when it comes to the instructions for enforcement. 

So when Blair played John Wayne about keeping bad guys out he wasn't quoting an imaginary law but a real one with how he felt he would enforce it. This was rooted in a real law and enforced through a series of direction from the brass.

However, it may have been prudent to correct the rumours when they started flying about. However it may have been a) impractical with other worries demanding attention b) seen as a beneficial media rumour for the time being c) not worth correcting as the results are essentially the same. The authority would still exist.

You can be most certainly positive that the front line officers would not have known the wording of the new additions to the legislation and would have been acting off instructions for how the law was to be enforced. 

As for how I would feel- having reviewed the law in this case I wouldnt have been _that_ concerned. I would have felt it was foolish to design an arbitrary to distance to enforce the "approach" to the public work AND not addressing the misinformation in the media but, and without being flippant, I disagree everyday with the way management does certain things.

I think the big step now would be to go back and look at how Blair, and others, delivered the information. Did they foster the misunderstanding (and lets be honest- thats lying) or did it evolve on its own. 

I would not expect it to increase the liability of the front line guys. The court would look at the totality of circumstances- cops deployed along the fence doing shifts. Informed by management of changes in law and how to enforce it, no reasonable chance to explore the validity of the statements AND its not outside of the realm of the possible- the officers would be acting in good faith. That doesnt mean that the force wouldnt liable but individual officers would more than likely be protected.

I want to stress that this is all speculation on my part. Using hindsight to look for why it may have happened- I wasn't there and I was under the impression that the 5m was law as well. Im merely stating a possibility- its just an educated guess based off my experience.


----------



## 2010newbie

Thanks, I appreciate the opinion. To clarify, I have no issue with the actions of the front-line officers; regardless of this 5-metre interpretation issue. As Container addressed in his post, I was wondering about officer perception and liability regarding this interpretation coming out after the fact.


----------



## Jarnhamar

:camo:


----------



## 57Chevy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> *OK, EVERYBODY STOP!*
> So the police searched some people, and they arrested others.  Big frigging deal.  Do we need to be reminded that thugs were roaming the streets, setting cars on fire and smashing windows?  Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.
> 
> *ENOUGH!*



Wow !!!......"Show new replies to your posts" came right to TechnoV .....but I agree  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

This seems very clear, logical and responsible, when we discuss locations, lodging and security:




			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> "Summit moved from CNE to downtown over Toronto’s objections, mayor says:
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said on Monday that the Exhibition grounds had been ruled out because it had no hotels for the leaders, and additional challenges that would create to travel and security in and out of the areas.
> 
> ...............................
> 
> 
> Soudas said there has been a compensation package for summjts for nine years now and any shopkeepers or any other businesses will have to apply through that, http://g20.gc.ca/important
> http://www.thestar.com/article/830274--toronto-s-advice-ignored-on-g20-miller-says


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Here's the thing though:
> 
> That said, I saw a number of situations where police, standing on streetcorners outside of the security zone and seemingly not engaged in the search for _specific individuals,_ stop and search what seemed to be random people who were doing nothing more than wearing black, carrying backpacks, long hair, piercings, and tattoos.



Every been pulled over by the cops doing a checkstop? Very similar, but nobody gets hot under the collar about checkstops. And while we're talking about oppressive laws, remember that earlier this year politicians in Ottawa were looking at a law (instigated by MADD) that would allow the police to *pull over anyone* without do cause, anytime they wanted. Now thats scary.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This seems very clear, logical and responsible, when we discuss locations, lodging and security:



It was to some, but not to all:

CTV Tom Clark interview: 10 June 2010 
"Former RCMP inspector says money could have been saved if the G20 summit meeting was held at the CNE ground in Toronto.":
“What was recommended, is that they host the G20 summit at the CNE in Toronto"
"But decisions were made in Ottawa at the political level, and they chose to have it in downtown Toronto so the security considerations skyrocketed." 
"I think what happens is that you get a lot of what I call armchair experts in Ottawa who are making decisions that maybe aren't the best ones." :
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/g20-summit/#clip312059

National Post: May 25, 2010:
"One has to wonder what message Toronto is trying to convey — or, rather, what message Ottawa is trying to convey, since the city of Toronto urged Ottawa to hold the summit at the CNE grounds,  where it could easily be ringed off without entirely disrupting normal life. But no. For some bizarre reason, the Conservatives insist on holding it in the centre of the city, perhaps to impress all the other political heavyweights with Ottawa’s ability to bring the country’s biggest city to a screeching halt on a summer weekend."

Toronto Sun: 6 June 2010:
"For G20, Ex marks the spot: Granatstein
Wreaking havoc on downtown by using the Metro Convention Centre a blunder by organizers"

National Post:
"Councillor Adam Vaughan (Trinity-Spadina) warns that given the crowds, too much planning is being done from Ottawa with scant involvement from local stakeholders who know the neighbourhood.
"I've seen one transportation plan that involves walking people from Union Station, down Bay Street, along Lake Shore Boulevard and up Rees Street to the SkyDome," Mr. Vaughan said. "And this was suggested by the folks up in Ottawa as being the easiest way to handle a crowd of 50,000 people. We had to explain to them that they would have to build a sidewalk on those streets, that there actually isn't a sidewalk on Lake Shore Boulevard." "






Youtube: Setting police cars on fire:
http://backofthebook.ca/2010/06/28/the-g20-were-the-burning-police-cars-bait-cars/3413/


----------



## Container

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Every been pulled over by the cops doing a checkstop? Very similar, but nobody gets hot under the collar about checkstops. And while we're talking about oppressive laws, remember that earlier this year politicians in Ottawa were looking at a law (instigated by MADD) that would allow the police to *pull over anyone* without do cause, anytime they wanted. Now thats scary.



Hey Guy- unless something has changed (and I totally missed something)

The police can already pull any vehicle on the road over. There are a variety of provincial authorities under most motor vehicle acts (whatever variation of name they use). I can check to ensure that anyone operating a motor vehicle has appropriate licensing and insurance etc. 

The law being pushed by MADD was the right to demand a breath sample by way of approved screening device at the road side on any person operating a motor vehicle. Right now I need reasonable suspicion that the driver has alcohol in their blood stream. (which is already a low threshold- and I would suggest is sufficient) The new law would allow me to check whenever the mood struck.

Im not sure where the debate is at but I wouldnt bother regular people with such an authority. MADD is pretty "directionless" as to how to make good suggestions. Unfortnately they hold  alot of lobbying juice.

We ain't unreasonable. Just because I can do something to someone doesnt mean I would. There are you guys and then there are the "other guys". Who complain they are targetted because they have 5 and 6 impaired driving convictions.  :2c:

As an aside- I polled the guys around the office as to what this whole "5m" scandal means and no one is sure what to make of it. It should be interesting to see how it goes.


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> Hi Wonderbread.
> 
> Firstly, I wasn't at the G8/G20 so I cant speak directly to what you saw. You also aren't that specific about what you believe to be "just plain wrong"- so Im going to try and answer back in generality about what I THINK you may have saw.
> 
> As a police officer I routinely stop people I am suspicious of. During those stops I try and ascertain as much about an individual as I can. Furthermore, I also (depending on circumstance) talk my way into their backpacks or pockets. This is called a consent search and it is a completely legitimate police tactic. Police become pretty slick about them and I am proud to say that I'm almost as good as a used car salesman to get that consent.
> 
> The police officers in this area would be at a heightend level of suspicion of pretty much everyone who could potentially be a nogoodnik. I would expect that the individuals searched (consent or otherwise were of a certain........type and not just regular folks walking their babies? I do not support arbitrary search and detainment. I do however use everything Im legally allowed to do to ensure that I am get my job done. Within a framework as supported by law.
> 
> With regards to this controversial non-law. Ive been looking for the actual law as its written to have a look at how this may have been misinterpreted but I can't find it. Its seems shady at best so im weary until I see the actual law- Blair is pretty straightlaced for this kind of nonsense.



I've been posting on this forum since 2002.  That's eight years of posting history you can go through and judge for yourself whether I'm a reasonable guy, or just some punk with an anti-authority agenda.  Besides that, all I can do is tell it like I saw it.

I think it's quite possible that the police were operating under the laws regarding "consent search."  While technically, these kinds of searches may have been consensual, the fact that very few understood the expanded police powers made it too risky to do anything else.

The net result was the exploitation of legal loopholes in order to conduct arbitrary searches contrary to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  That, in my mind, is _just plain wrong._



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> *OK, EVERYBODY STOP!*
> So the police searched some people, and they arrested others.  Big frigging deal.  Do we need to be reminded that thugs were roaming the streets, setting cars on fire and smashing windows?  Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.
> 
> *ENOUGH!*



I'm not going to pretend that I didn't see what I saw, and that it doesn't conflict with what I hold dear as a Canadian.


----------



## hold_fast

One cannot just forgo their senses and start beating people because it is stressful, or conduct unlawful searches because of the nature of the event.
It doesn't help that Blair chose to simply omit that the 5m rule didn't actually exist, but then he goes on to display some of the confiscated items:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/g20/2010/06/30/14570126.html



> His hand-made scale armour, cushion-tipped arrows and hockey-taped shields were among the items Toronto Police chief Bill Blair said were “seized from criminals” who wreaked havoc on the city Saturday.



And this:


> When Blair was asked about a chainsaw and crossbow, he agreed they had been seized from a man near The Esplanade in an incident unrelated to the G20 summit.



We're just fueling the fires of the thugs who go out and riot.
I side with the police on 80-90% of their decisions over the weekend. The remaining events, however, are questionable. Including the questionable incident of the deaf man being arrested:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/toronto/deaf-man-arrested-in-g20-protest-gets-bail/article1619559/


> She and Mr. Azorbo had gone to see what the protest was about, she said, adding that there was a miscommunication with police, she said, because her friend couldn’t understand the verbal instructions they were giving him. Ms. Gebresellassi said her friend wasn’t involved in the protest and had little idea what was going on.



I won't side with the police 100% however, as we are all human and all capable of mistakes, especially in such stressful situations. I merely believe that if anything did go wrong, then it should be fessed up to and people should take responsibility.


----------



## Container

Wonderbread-

What is the legal loophole you are refering to? 

That being said I will concede that being asked for "consent" when you dont feel like you have a choice isnt really giving consent. And the court agrees with that. So without knowing what instructions the people searched were given or the grounds for the search I cant speculate any farther. I m not accusing  you of being anti authoritarian or a shyte-disturber Im sorry if I suggested that somehow.

The photo op with all the seized items is embarrassing to be honest. But its just a collection of items seized over the weekend. There are very real hatchets, clubs, and sledgehammers in those photos as well. Yes there are some fruit cake items that should have been ignored.

I think the people who SHARE responsibility with Blair to clarify are the media that ran with the inflammatory Orwelian police powers expanded headlines. They did little to no fact checking and poured gas on the fire. This is exactly the opposite of responsible journalism. And Blair used their laziness (in my opinion). Now they have taken up the cause of chasing Blair (and right now Im not sure if its justified or not- it may be) because they looked bad. They are also really upset that no one died.

All things considered ( compared to some other summits) it was relatively uneventful. 

hold_fast-

That deaf man is charged with assaulting a police officer and resisting arrest. If he was deaf and arrested for only resisting I could see an argument that he could not understand. But assaulting a PO requires extra special resisting. There is more to this story and the police arent allowed to say their side because its before the courts.

As for the photo-op- I might have excluded the foam bats  :

Im in a very real position of just being the police cheerleader so I'll just try and back out slowly- but I'd ask you guys to keep an open mind about the sources of these allegations. If one was to believe the media blitz right now the police this weekend rolled around sexually assaulting people and going out of their way to hurt people. I've yet to meet a police officer who tells female prisoners that when they get to jail they will be raped. 

I have heard, and made the mistake once in a while of saying an off handed remark, but I have never heard people told the things that are being alleged right now. It is not impossible- no. But I would suggest alot of it is unlikely. Ive worked in the most remote police detachments in Canada (and bigger ones) where the chance to get away with abusing your authority is highest and I have never heard or seen the things alleged. 

But as a cop im biased im sure. In the end Ive only had positive experiences with police!


----------



## SeanNewman

The Black Bloc has crossed the line on this one:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/Somnia/article1625239/

Black Bloc interrupted soldier’s cortège: Blair 

Christie Blatchford 
From Thursday's Globe and Mail 
Published on Wednesday, Jun. 30, 2010 10:32PM EDT

The final chapter of the repatriation for Sergeant Jimmy MacNeil last Friday had to be cut short outside the coroner’s office in Toronto when Black Bloc anarchists tried to break through police lines to attack.

The revelation came during an hour-long interview Wednesday with Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair, during which he also confessed he is worried about how the events of last weekend may have affected the “public trust” the force must have with its citizens.

At the time the cortège carrying Sgt. MacNeil’s body was arriving at the coroner’s office on Grosvenor Street, just two short blocks north of College Street, a group of about 30 demonstrators dressed in black moved out of a crowd of 2,000 who had massed in front of police headquarters on College.

“The Black Bloc was here and they charged up the thing [laneway], as a matter of fact the repatriation was kind of interrupted,” Chief Blair said.

“My public order guys ran through the lines that we had to close off the alley that they were trying to get up [to Grosvenor] with.”

The coroner’s office is the last stop on a soldier’s return home, and Chief Blair always tries to attend the solemn ceremony. His usual practice is to accompany the fallen soldier’s ‘escort officer’ and offer condolences and thanks to the families.

Instead, he said, he had to tell Sgt. MacNeil’s escort, “Sorry, it’s over, get out of here because it’s too dangerous.”

(More on link)


----------



## mariomike

Very disappointing. I feel bad for the family.
That's T-EMS Chief Farr ( gold lanyard ) at 0:25:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-t7E2R-8pI

More:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FvEvHBXXUc&feature=related

Chief Farr, Mike O'Halloran ( Commander ) and the T-EMS Honour Guard at 0:05 ( They came all the way down from 4330 Dufferin St. during a protest / riot in ( ceremonial ) dress uniform, with four flags, just to pay their respects ) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V27_kcxutUw&feature=related

That big Paramedic shaking hands with Police Chief Blair at 0:14 is Rahul Singh:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/04/30/toronto-paramedic-makes-times-list-of-most-influential-people/

Something interesting. There is a firehouse just up the alley on Grosvenor.   
It's the first repatriation that I did not see a single fire truck / firefighter in attendance at the Coroner's Office. They specifically bring crews in from other halls, in case the regular crew at Grosvenor has to go out on a call. 

Idiot(s) on a military cenotaph, University Ave.:
There is an uncensored video on Facebook of that guy climbing up on top of that military statue and performing indecent acts too perverted to post here.


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> Wonderbread-
> 
> What is the legal loophole you are refering to?
> 
> That being said I will concede that being asked for "consent" when you dont feel like you have a choice isnt really giving consent. And the court agrees with that. So without knowing what instructions the people searched were given or the grounds for the search I cant speculate any farther. I m not accusing  you of being anti authoritarian or a shyte-disturber Im sorry if I suggested that somehow.



Maybe "loophole" wasn't the right word, but you got the jist of my argument.  With all the allegations of arbitrary arrests the day before and with the confusion over what the police were legally allowed to do, there was very little choice for people but to give consent.

Believe me when I say that it pains me to bring this stuff to light.  My best friend is with Peel Regional and his brother is with Metro TO.  I understand that both cops and soldiers are enforcers of government policy; the former at home, the latter abroad.  I'm sympathetic to organizations made up of volunteers who willingly put themselves in "no-win" situations, or situations where one bad apple will be perceived to have spoiled the whole bunch.

But if the kind of conduct I saw on Sunday were happening in the army, I'd be the first to say that there needs to be a full investigation.  Just because a guy is in uniform doesn't mean he can't get carried away in his duties.  We've all seen it in the CF, both at the organizational and at the individual level.  The police aren't infallible either, and people need to be held accountable.

EDIT to add:

Container, thanks for posting and helping to show that the majority of Canadian cops are reasonable dudes who just want to do the right thing.  Outside of this specific event, my experience with the police has been overwhelmingly positive and your posts here have reinforced that.

Cheers.


----------



## Rogo

Hey isn't that guy on the memorial the same guy who was in the photos being arrested for burning one of the cars... I think so.   Either way well done for the police who worked that summit  [mountie] 


I hope they didn't dare damage anything on that memorial.


----------



## 57Chevy

G20 protesters regroup in Montreal Thursday:

MONTREAL - Marching behind a large banner that proclaimed "the real vandals are the chiefs of state," more than 750 Montrealers marched northward along St. Laurent Blvd. 

At 1:10 p.m. Thursday they had reached the corner of Prince Arthur St., chanting slogans and carrying signs protesting what organizers had called the "repressive apparatus" for G-20 summit in Toronto.

They had not disclosed their protest route and were accompanied at a distance by Montreal police, some on bicycles, some on foot, with police cruisers.
The march convened for noon at the Carré St. Louis, near the Sherbrooke métro station.
No route or destination were disclosed beforehand.

(article continues)

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/protesters+regroup+Montreal/3223971/story.html#ixzz0sSSBG3Sm
               (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## SeanNewman

A lot of left-wingers surprisingly defending the violent protesters in the CBC comments.

I am all for people protesting, but as soon as they start rioting I think the Police should have far more liberties to start laying the smack down.  

That way you wouldn't have 1,000 cops vs 1,000 violent protesters and 10,000 curious onlookers, but 1,000 cops and 10,000 curious onlookers vs the 1,000 violent protesters because they would hopefully not allow the dinks to do anything bad for fear of the MGs opening up.


----------



## mariomike

Rogo said:
			
		

> I hope they didn't dare damage anything on that memorial.



It will need a darn good scrubbing, that's for sure!



			
				Petamocto said:
			
		

> A lot of left-wingers surprisingly defending the violent protesters in the CBC comments.



Rex Murphy of the CBC had this to say, before it went down. To refresh my memory, I read what Rex had to say. This time, after the fact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OusdsPv5XwA


Rex Murphy

May 26, 2010

Summits are useless, expensive, and potentially dangerous anachronisms.

Let's take the Toronto summit. No-one from the general public will be meeting with the world leaders --- summits are not for mingling. No walk-abouts a la the Royals.

Why, then, are they meeting in the middle of Canada's most populous city when the very idea of meeting, interacting with, or making a presentation to - any of the city's population is absolutely impossible? They could meet on the Funks - remote and un-crowded even by Newfoundland standards - and see more people.

Once inside the summit venue the leaders - and their insanely bloated retinues - will be almost antiseptically sealed off from every other bit of Toronto outside their fortified meeting rooms and security-proofed hotels. Effectively, they will come to Toronto, stay behind a shield of impassable security, merely to talk to leaders most of whom they have already met. It makes zero sense.

There's another objection. In older, less cynical days, the leaders of the world enjoyed some genuine prestige. There was a sense that a city was receiving "an honour" when the leaders from other countries visited. Not now. In a world rocked with recession, Europe on the brink, terrorism and the threat of terrorism an always present obbligato, there is not only no thrill to leaders visiting - in some cases there is palpable resentment. 

World leaders are neither revered nor even, in most cases, seen as interesting. Why do you think these summits so frequently drag in poor tired old Bono - except to get a little second-hand celebrity sauce for an otherwise very flat meal? 

Finally, from Seattle to Quebec City to Toronto next month, who really "owns" these summits? With the leaders invisible under their security blankets, they belong to the protestors. Summits are the high holy days, the carnival of ritual protest and vacuous street theatre. You can't hold a global anything these days, even a joyful event like the Olympics, without the tired kabuki of protest groups jamming the streets, shouting their impenetrable litany of anti-everything, accompanied, of course, by the usual band of black masked pseudo-anarchists allergic to Starbucks and thirsty for the two-day fame a little provocation or a lot of violence can bring them. The leaders own the meetings; the protestors own the cameras.

Finally, I know we're in the age of large numbers, but can anyone seriously rationalize spending close to a billion dollars - a billion - to hold a pair of meetings? And that's just for the security! This one consideration in itself is obscene. It'll only cost a billion dollars for 20 people to meet for a few of days, because of where they meet. Face time, as the ugly phrase has it, is valuable, but it's not worth a billion dollars, nor a fraction of it, in the middle of a recession.

Meet in the White House, or in a resort, or (if space is a consideration) at Al Gore's house - anywhere but in a 21st century downtown of a modern city, where security suffocates the meeting and protestors are given the most expensive magnifying glass the world has even known.

For The National, I'm Rex Murphy.


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

mariomike said:
			
		

> Summits are the high holy days, the carnival of ritual protest and vacuous street theatre. You can't hold a global anything these days, even a joyful event like the Olympics, without the tired kabuki of protest groups jamming the streets, shouting their impenetrable litany of anti-everything, accompanied, of course, by the usual band of black masked pseudo-anarchists allergic to Starbucks and thirsty for the two-day fame a little provocation or a lot of violence can bring them. The leaders own the meetings; the protestors own the cameras.



 :nod:


----------



## Thompson_JM

Rex Murphy is one of the few things I very much like about the CBC.... he always tells it like it is, and never fails to raise excellent points to ponder.


Also, Thanks to both Container and Wonderbread for reminding me why I like this site so much.  Two people having Reasonable informed and respectful discussion on here.  

I look forward to reading this thread further as it continues to evolve and stimulate some interesting debate.


----------



## ArmyRick

Can anybody confirm if that dirt bag on the memorial is the same one looking sad and sullen in the police arrest photos? The guy who is nearly naked?


----------



## 57Chevy

By blowing out the above photo to 200%. I see he is sporting the same ring on the same finger in  other photos on the thread. Seems to be the same guy.


----------



## Rogo

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Can anybody confirm if that dirt bag on the memorial is the same one looking sad and sullen in the police arrest photos? The guy who is nearly naked?



I asked that too, looks exactly like him.


----------



## George Wallace

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ............the CLAC, Montreal's Anti-Capitalist Convergence group, which said Monday that only 125 of its 450 members who had taken buses to Toronto had returned.
> 
> ...........................................
> 
> The CLAC describes itself as an umbrella group involved in a number of different issues -- including rights for immigrants and women, in addition to its anti-capitalist agenda.
> 
> It has no problem with the so-called Black Bloc protest tactics, calling it a legitimate form of protest, which it says mainly targets "multi-national" companies and "symbols of capitalism."
> 
> The protest tactic sees people using black clothing to blend into larger crowds and, in many cases, taking advantage of that anonymity to escape arrest for vandalism.
> 
> "We respect a diversity of tactics. People are angry, particularly in the context of an event like that," said Mathieu Francoeur, another CLAC member.
> 
> "For us it's vandalism against certain institutions . . . it's symbolic and doesn't compare with violence in general in society."
> 
> But organizers for the Quebec-based group said they were surprised by the targeting of French-speaking protesters.
> 
> One member who was detained on Sunday said she and two other Quebecers driving along College Street were stopped only because they had a Quebec licence plate.
> 
> Camille, a slight redhead who refused to give her last name, said police then rifled through her possessions and found some black clothing.
> 
> She also had a lawyer's telephone number scrawled on her arm and an anarchist book in the car.
> 
> She said she was held for nearly 10 hours without being allowed to make a phone call, and was crammed into a cell with other women almost entirely from Quebec.
> 
> "They showed us a report by accident that said they arrested us because we had Quebec licence plates and a black T-shirt," said the university student.
> 
> She drove overnight to get out of Toronto after spending Sunday in detention.
> 
> "We just wanted to get the hell out of there," she said.
> 
> ....................................................................................
> 
> The CLAC organizers deflected allegations that people affiliated with their group were in large part responsible for the damage.
> 
> The CLAC says about 1,000 members went in Toronto, but were immediately targeted as soon as their buses pulled into the city on Friday.
> 
> "Anyone who had the protester look," Francoeur said.
> 
> "There was institutionalized profiling, and we figured it might happen, but we never thought politicians would also give police carte blanche to do as they pleased."
> 
> The CLAC had spent months organizing trips to Toronto to protest the G20.
> 
> ...........................................................................................
> 
> The Montreal protest group is planning to hold a demonstration on Thursday to denounce police handling of the G20 protests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LINK



Let's see?  Lawyer's phone number already written on arm.  Black clothing in car.  Anarchist literature in car.  Quebec plates on car, and info that the CLAC are coming in force in buses and cars from Quebec.  A LEO would be pretty thick not to put two and two together here lady.  

At least she was smart enough to "get out of Dodge" as soon as she was released.

I think that the MSM are siding with the perpetrators of the violence, and not giving the Police and other agencies the credit that they are due for stopping much more of the violence from taking place through good intelligence on the groups like CLAC and SOAR and arresting people stupid enough to think that bringing anarchist literature, black clothing and items to be used in the commissioning of violent acts on their arrival in Toronto.  I am sure that 1,000 activists from Montreal and Quebec would have wrecked even more havoc on Toronto, had they not been arrested/detained.  

Now, I hope that the stupid activists who were dumb enough to show up at the Detention Centre, identified and snatched by the police, are all brought to justice and sued by the banks and businesses that they attacked and looted, as well as the private and public property that they trashed.


----------



## George Wallace

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Can anybody confirm if that dirt bag on the memorial is the same one looking sad and sullen in the police arrest photos? The guy who is nearly naked?



As you view the numerous sites for photos and video, you will find this guy showing up everywhere, from fully clothed to completely naked.  I would suspect that he is a homeless person with a serious psychological problem who has fallen through the cracks of the Social System and isn't "Institutionalized" as he would appear to need.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I understand that both cops and soldiers are enforcers of government policy; the former at home, the latter abroad.



I am sorry Wonderbread, but you understand wrong.

First of all, the cops are enforcers of the duly enacted criminal and penal laws of the country only. They have no business enforcing policies, which are not binding on citizens. A country where "policies" are enforced by cops is a police state.

As for the military, we do not enforce "policy" either. We defend the integrity of the country from attacks by foreign powers: in other terms, Canada's sovereignty, and we protect canadian interests abroad as lawfully ordered. This is why for instance, Canada has a foreign policy on the middle east, which the military does not enforce, while after the Israel foray into Lebanon a few years ago, the military assisted the government's efforts at repatriating Canadians from Lebanon: the safety of Canadian citizens abroad being a Canadian Interest.


----------



## Container

Choice of terms aside- I believe Wonderbread was showing a similarity in the Raison d'être of the Police and the Military. Which at its most base form is the protection of people (in the case of Canadian Interests being maintaining Canadian citizens for the miltary side as you provided about Lebanon) and property (also Canadian Interests). While enforcement is a tool it is not the entire reason for existence.

Wouldnt you agree?

As for the most recent article provided by George Wallace (thank you) I am always surprised by anti-capitalists who drive cars. Maybe a Lada but anything else?

In the end I believe it is good for the public to ask questions and get answers about what the police did during the protests. I like free society where we can ask- it reminds me of why I am Canadian in more than name. But it is important to also be open to the answers.

I have no doubt there will be mistakes identified from the summit. But keeping anarchist dipsticks who dont believe in protesting without violence out shouldnt be one of them. I really do believe that todays "protester" shames the protesters of the civil rights movements. That must be why they cant get my support. And Im a moderate.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Container said:
			
		

> Choice of terms aside- I believe Wonderbread was showing a similarity in the Raison d'être of the Police and the Military. Which at its most base form is the protection of people (in the case of Canadian Interests being maintaining Canadian citizens for the miltary side as you provided about Lebanon) and property (also Canadian Interests). While enforcement is a tool it is not the entire reason for existence.
> 
> Wouldnt you agree?



I don't know if this discussion belongs here Container, but I cannot agree with your statement. First, choice of terms does matter.

While its been said that "the police protects us from the enemy within, while the armed forces protect form the enemy without", it is not the same type of enemy or even interest that is at issue. One great difference is that the police needs laws to enforce and breach of those laws before it can act. This is so because any police action is to some extent an intrusion into the sphere of personal interest of the citizen. This is why the police presence is kept to the required level. (It would not do to have a 500 strong police force in small 10K habitants town with just about no crime to speak of, as it creates an atmosphere of being watched - spied on - without cause). The military, which does not intrude into the people's private sphere, do not need an "enemy" of the moment to justify their existence: the mere fact that war remains possible and the maintenance of critical warfighting knowledge require training is sufficient.

For instance, you mention property as an interest. It may be so for an individual, but not for the state as a state. It is a personal interest in one's property that you protect as a police officer. This is why the laws enforced by police are aimed at the individual's deportment. But the military protects the state's interest, not the individual's. Thus, protection of private property is not a military concern, except in the exceptional circumstances where the civil authorities (the police) asks for assistance which is then carried out in the same lawful manner as police conduct.

Similarly, the protection of Canadian citizens abroad, as in the Lebanese example I cited, is not carried out by the state or military on an individual citizen's interest basis but on a state level. A Canadian arrested in a foreign country, even on a flimsy basis, does not trigger the "protection of Canadian citizens abroad" interest, not even the mere kidnapping of a Canadian citizen abroad (unless kidnapped by the foreign state). It is the collective interest that must be triggered, such as the one resulting from external events affecting Canadian abroad, such as natural disaster, wars, insurrections, etc. that catch Canadian "off-guard" so to speak, and exceed the foreign state's capacity to ensure the full protection of the Canadian citizen. 

This as you can see can lead to a nice philosophical discussion, but not one that belongs here.


----------



## Journeyman

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> mariomike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"Rex Murphy says...."  *
> Summits are the high holy days, the carnival of ritual protest and vacuous street theatre
> 
> 
> 
> :nod:
Click to expand...

_Some_ people are deeply sensitive about quotes being falsely attributed


----------



## mariomike

That was just me getting a little cranky in my old age, Journeyman. Which is why I try to stick to old movies on TV, rather than the local news.   
Sorry about the crack. Too late now to remove it.  :-[


----------



## Fusaki

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I am sorry Wonderbread, but you understand wrong.



Fair enough.  I really didn't intend to sidetrack this discussion on the difference between the police and the military.

The purpose of that comment was to show that I'm usually pretty sympathetic to the police.  Even if you were to remove that particular sentence from my post, my argument still stands.


----------



## TCBF

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> ...
> While its been said that "the police protects us from the enemy within, while the armed forces protect form the enemy without", ... This as you can see can lead to a nice philosophical discussion, but not one that belongs here.



- I'm temped, though...  Let us remember Sir Robert Peel's Principals of Policing:

Principles of policing:

   1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
   2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
   3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
   4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
   5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
   6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
   7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
   8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
   9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

- Note: "The police are the public and the public are the police." In other words, police fight crime full time, the rest of us part time: by protecting ourselves and those we are responsible for by self-defence and defence of property within the law.  Police protect society, as individuals, we protect ourselves.  Like it or not, in most cases you call 9-1-1 for clean-up.


----------



## Larkvall

I just came across this video of a looter being stopped...................  ;D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1n5KthCmY


----------



## George Wallace

Larkvall said:
			
		

> I just came across this video of a looter being stopped...................  ;D
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1n5KthCmY



Notice that the guy he bumps into exiting the Bell Store almost enters and then stops when he sees the thief being held down.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Notice that the guy he bumps into exiting the Bell Store almost enters and then stops when he sees the thief being held down.



Works in a bank when not taking down looters:
http://torontoist.com/2010/07/roger_reis_g20_bell_store_looter_tackler.php

The monument squatter looks like he is trying to _put out _ a fire started by a guy wearing a white hoodie around the 2:25 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-Q11MKx1g

( Around the 2:00 mark, and after, there looks to be bald-headed guy in a dark shirt passing stuff in from the passenger side at 2:23. You can see that same guy carrying some bottles in his left hand at 0:39, with a big yellow sign in his right hand.  )

Canadian Press:
"McGuinty regrets confusion over secret G20 law:  TORONTO - Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty admits he could have done a better job of dispelling widespread confusion about police powers during the explosive G20 protests in Toronto, but insists he doesn't owe anyone an apology.":
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100702/national/g20_secret_law

"Joint lawsuit planned for G20 arresteesOverwhelmed with calls, Civil Liberties Association is working on suing police forces: Overwhelmed with calls, Civil Liberties Association is working on suing police forces":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/830747--joint-lawsuit-planned-for-g20-arrestees?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"TTC worker caught in G20 police sweep: Man arrested and held 36 hours despite uniform, identification":
 http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/830858--ttc-worker-caught-in-g20-police-sweep?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

"Angry merchants ask: Why did G20 protesters attack us?: Vandals attacked their stores during the G20 summit. Now, Yonge St.’s small merchants want to know, ‘Why us?’":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/831506--angry-merchants-ask-why-did-g20-protesters-attack-us

National Post:
"[TORONTO – Jul. 1, 2010] – Canadians and Torontonians think the federal government should be responsible for compensating the businesses that were negatively affected during the G20 summit in the country's largest city, a new Angus Reid Public Opinion poll has found.":
http://www.visioncritical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/2010.07.01_Summits_CAN.pdf

"G20 debates a friendship in the breaking: Talking politics creates a rift in relationships":
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/831059--g20-debates-a-friendship-in-the-breaking


----------



## Jarnhamar

Like Wonderbred I'm sympathetic to the police. Very much so.  I actually think the police should have used _more_ force and took the crap disturbers down as soon as they donned face masks and picked up weapons.

If Wonderbread had eyes on and said things were sketchy I'm quite inclined to believe him.

Police can't afford to sit there and debate the merits of a law with some mouthy protestor who'll spend an hour arguing about illegal searches over and over.
At the same time the police should at least know what law it is they are enforcing. "Because we said so" or "Because it's the G20 summit" aren't very good answers.  STFU and do it works well with us but not these people.  Some of the police at least knew the name of the Public Works act, others seemed like they had no clue.
[Once I was informed by the police that it was illegal to have more than 5 rounds in a .45 pistol and I was lucky because he could charge me for not having a plug in my shotgun (even though it was being stored and not hunted with..) and because I changed shotgun stocks (wood to plastic) without telling anyone. It's not cool when police don't know the law]

Displaying "captured weapons" that had nothing to do with the summit? That seems cheap and cheesy.  
In a battle where public relations is important (not to mention makes the job easier I'd imagine?) it seems like who ever is in charge of PR crap the bed in a few areas.

In the police defense they're all not big city swat types. The police came from all over the country, including many small towns. Thrust a small town guy into a riot situation with thousands upon thousands of people and he's bound to waver a little and make some mistakes. 
And need I mention Op Cadence trying to be run initially like a tour to Afghanistan? Police probably suffered from the same spin factor as us.


----------



## 57Chevy

I think this makes alot of sense. Not only is it not warranted but neither are the actions of those
anarchists who caused so much damage and trouble for police, disrupted the legal protesters of
voicing their democratic rights, and brought shame to our country. My :2c:
          _______________________________________________________________

From the Gazette:
TORONTO — Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty will not call a public inquiry into the way police handled protests during last weekend's G20 summit in Toronto.

A spokesperson for the premier said McGuinty feels an inquiry "isn't warranted.

"It was a federally led summit and it would be a federal government decision to review any aspects of the summit," the spokesperson wrote in an email to Canwest News Service.

(Article continues)

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/public+inquiry+into+police+tactics+McGuinty/3229495/story.html#ixzz0sdUxe89i

          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## George Wallace

This may seem rather innocent at first:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*'Nerd' shocked his toys in G20 weapons cache*
By TAMARA CHERRY, QMI Agency
Last Updated: June 30, 2010 7:18pm

LINK 

*Fantasy role playing weapons put next to weapons seized during summit*

Police are living in a fantasy world if they think arrows on display Tuesday had anything to do with the weekend G20 violence, a Whitby man said Wednesday.

Brian Barrett was shocked to go online Tuesday and see a photo gallery showing toy weapons seized from him while en route to Mississauga for a fantasy role-playing game.

His hand-made scale armour, cushion-tipped arrows and hockey-taped shields were among the items Toronto Police chief Bill Blair said were “seized from criminals” who wreaked havoc on the city Saturday.

They weren’t the only misleading items on display during a Tuesday press conference.

When Blair was asked about a chainsaw and crossbow, he agreed they had been seized from a man near The Esplanade in an incident unrelated to the G20 summit.

“Some of the things that are related are these arrows with devices tied on to them so that they could pour gas on them, ignite them and shoot them at us,” Blair said. “That was seized from criminals.”

Not so, said Barrett, “champion of Twilight Peak” and weapons safety officer for a 15th century role-playing game called Amtgard.

Barrett was passing through Union Station from Whitby, clad in his 85-pound scale armour, when he was “thrown into a bench” and held at gunpoint while officers dumped out his backpack — also on display Tuesday — and rifled through its contents, he said.

Among the items taken from him after more than an hour of detention were his armour, two shields, a round buckler, foam maces, a foam flail and five arrows that had their points taken off and padded “so that they’re safe enough for 13-year-old and 14-year-old kids to play with.”

Given the sensitivity of the weekend, police confiscated the items and told Barrett he could retrieve them from a warehouse on Tuesday.

“I woke up yesterday morning and I had players as far as Texas leaving me messages on my voicemail saying, ‘Dude, all of your stuff is on TV, they’re saying it’s all terrorist weapons,’” Barrett said.

“There’s a big stigma that I’m a nerd, I’m going outside dressed as a knight from the 15th century, wearing authentic armour and carrying foam weapons and shields,” Barrett said. “Now I’m going to have to deal with the stigma of being the violent nerdy guy who’s going to go around and break windows and smash banks because he’s angry at the government.”

Asked why the items were displayed, Toronto Police spokesman Mark Pugash said, “If there were things there that were not connected with the summit, they should not have been there. There was no intent to mislead anyone, but if people feel that they were, then I would apologize.”

By the time Blair arrived at the press conference, the property had been laid out and the chief “didn’t have a chance to look at all the property,” Pugash said.

“I’m probably, fairly certain that the property people weren’t in a position to go through each item and that’s unfortunate,” Pugash said. “It doesn’t diminish for a second the destruction we saw by people who came here apparently determined to create as much damage as they possibly could.”


======================================================================

This could be an interesting situation, however, the thing is; Union Station was NOT open during this period of time for commuter traffic.  Anyone else smell something not right here?


----------



## George Wallace

Perhaps a little dated, but:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*Four accused anarchists held overnight*
By IAN ROBERTSON, QMI Agency
Last Updated: June 28, 2010 11:47pm


LINK 

Four accused organizers of G20 demonstrations ended with more than 900 arrests will be back in court Tuesday afternoon.

Amanda Hiscocks, Leah Henderson, Alex Hundert and Peter Hopperton were separated in the Finch Ave. W. courthouse from more than a dozen others arrested during weekend protests.

Publication bans were imposed on all pretrial evidence and information.

The foursome, alleged Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance executives arrested after a 14-month undercover police investigation, sat together in a secure glassed-in booth Monday afternoon. Toronto Police officers guarded the courtroom entrance and visitors emptied their pockets and walked through security arches.

Lawyers sought adjournments to study evidence.

A young woman in a black shirt with dark hair tied in a ponytail, Henderson sat stone-faced during proceedings. She is charged with conspiracy to commit an indictable offence.

Hiscocks, a slender woman in a black T-shirt who nervously bit her nails, is charged with conspiracy to commit an indictable offence, failing to comply with bail conditions plus counselling to commit indictable offences.

Before being returned to custody, she smiled and waved at a courtroom camera, its image transmitted to relatives and supporters on a screen in a nearby public gallery room.

A dark-bearded Hundert also waved into the camera. He’s charged with conspiracy to commit an indictable offence plus counselling to commit indictable offences.

Hopperton, who has dark hair and a moustache, and wore dark coveralls, is charged with counselling to commit an indictable offence.

Accused protesters in other courtrooms faced charges including wearing a disguise to commit an offence, having dangerous weapons or concealed weapons, possessing incendiary materials, public mischief, causing a disturbance, obstructing peace officers, assaulting police with intent to resist arrest, unlawful assembly and carrying a weapon at a public meeting.

Several were released on bail.

Slightly-built, gray-haired Kitchener pensioner Florica Ichim, 65, had no comment after offering $2,000 bail for son Julian Ichim, who is charged with counselling to commit mischief.

Sporting a Mohawk haircut and a goatee, Peter J. Gill, 24, of B.C., was ordered out of Ontario until his next court date, Friday. Charged with making or possessing an explosive device and having a restricted weapon, he was released on $1,000 bail provided by his dad.

G20 protest speaker Taylor Flook later told The Sun between 300 to 400 people remain in custody. A police spokesman could not provide total release numbers.

Flook, 28, freed after 23 hours with her breach-of-the-peace charge dropped, said she joined a class-action arrest lawsuit.


----------



## George Wallace

Is it all over?  No.  Tomorrow..............

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*Ottawa anarchists stage protest for Sunday*
By KENNETH JACKSON, Ottawa Sun
Last Updated: July 2, 2010 11:10am



LINK 

They won't give up.

Anarchists, unhappy with the way Toronto police handled things during the G summits' protests will be back at Ottawa police headquarters Sunday.

"At this time we need to stand up, make some noise and make a collective statement that we will not let these actions stand," the group says in an e-mail circulated late Thursday.

Having already rallied at headquarters at 474 Elgin St. Wednesday, the group plans to be there again Sunday at 2:30 p.m.

The purpose behind the continuing protests are to show "solidarity" with the more than 1,000 people arrested during the summit meetings "and all others who were brutalized and had their rights violated."

It's being put together by a local group calling themselves Organizing for Justice.

Toronto police arrested and detained 714 people, and of those, 263 were held for bail hearings. A Toronto police spokesman said he didn't know how many were still in custody.

Another 113 were arrested on the street and released on scene.

More than 200 angry protesters shouted anti-police slogans and demanded justice outside police headquarters on Elgin St. Wednesday.

"I'm appalled and ashamed by what I saw over the weekend in Toronto," Jessica Freedman told the Sun at the protest. "It was very disturbing to me to see and hear the kinds of things that were happening."

Similar rallies were also held in Hamilton, London and Windsor.

There were about 1,000 protesting on Canada Day in Montreal and several thousand in Toronto, according to Organizing for Justice.

The local anarchists are also calling on people to call Toronto police Chief Bill Blair to complain about the arrests, alleged brutality and demand that all those arrested are released. They're also calling for his resignation.

"They need to hear from us. All of us. If you are in Toronto call as a Torontonian. If you are from elsewhere, call as someone who has spent time in the city," the group says.

=========================================================================

Without a doubt, some of these protestors were in Toronto.  Perhaps one, or more, participated in Black Bloc tactics.  Perhaps one, or more, was arrested and is currently out on Bail.  I am sure that Darwin is looking down on them and shaking his head.

Interesting that Jessica Freedman is so prominent in the news.   Shame she has no concept of OPSEC.....It makes tracking these twits so much easier.


----------



## Rogo

I predict that hundreds will gather and yell but be more or less peaceful while 2 or 3 will throw rocks and smash windows.  The Police will do the normal riot dealio and a few innocents will be detained, a few guilty will be detained, a few guilty will get away...all the while people will scream "Injustice! Injustice!" 

Why protest, we all know that this is how it goes.


----------



## mariomike

Globe and Mail: Statistics of other mass arrests in Canada.  

•2010 Toronto G20: Roughly 900 
•1993 Clayoquot Sound logging blockades: 856 
•1970 October Crisis: 465 
•2001 Quebec City Summit of the Americas: 463 
•1981 Toronto bathhouse raids: 286 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/g20-related-detentions-biggest-mass-arrests-in-canadian-history/article1621198/

Other G20 arrest stats ( Pittsburgh, London and "The Battle of Seattle" ) are in the Globe and Mail article.

Sun:
"G20 prisoner #0106: Sa":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/rachel_sa/2010/07/01/14578256.html


----------



## 57Chevy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This could be an interesting situation, however, the thing is; Union Station was NOT open during this period of time for commuter traffic.  Anyone else smell something not right here?



What a stupid ignoramus liar.
I wonder if his friends are still backing him up on that one ;D  HAHAHA


----------



## ModlrMike

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sun:
> "G20 prisoner #0106: Sa":
> http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/rachel_sa/2010/07/01/14578256.html



It might be more productive for her to direct her anger at the sh*t disturbers rather than the police. If she, and her "peaceful protest" compatriots want constructive protest then it falls to them to control their own rogue elements.


----------



## 57Chevy

Exactly, They should be pointing their fingers at those who were responsible for their alleged
unlawful detainment in those filthy and somehow "freezing" cells down in Toraushwitz town.


----------



## 2010newbie

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This could be an interesting situation, however, the thing is; Union Station was NOT open during this period of time for commuter traffic.  Anyone else smell something not right here?



Your information is not correct. Union Station was open during the G20 and GO Transit was operating a normal schedule. There was a disruption Saturday because of the lock-downs, but service resumed again on Sunday. VIA was not operating out of Union. It looks like this guy is just a nerd who possibly spends way too much time playing online games and oblivious to the fact their was a major event with heightened security outside the front doors of Union.

http://news.globaltv.com/story.html?id=3083907

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100627/toronto_G20_shutdowns_100627/20100627/?hub=TorontoNewHome

_edited VIA info_


----------



## stukirkpatrick

> At the same time the police should at least know what law it is they are enforcing. "Because we said so" or "Because it's the G20 summit" aren't very good answers.  STFU and do it works well with us but not these people.  Some of the police at least knew the name of the Public Works act, others seemed like they had no clue.





> In the police defense they're all not big city swat types. The police came from all over the country, including many small towns. Thrust a small town guy into a riot situation with thousands upon thousands of people and he's bound to waver a little and make some mistakes.




Just to re-iterate this point, but most if not all of the police from Nontario weren't advised of this public works law, and weren't expected/directed to use it during the course of duties


----------



## 57Chevy

Poll finds G20 protesters blew it big time:

Those demonstrations during the G20 summit sure did a lot of good for the activist community.

Here they had a chance to make a political point on some crucial issues at a moment when attention across the world was temporarily focused on Toronto.

So what did they achieve? According to Angus Reid they disgusted the vast majority of the people they were trying to woo:

Respondents were asked about their feelings about the demonstrations that took place in Toronto during the G20 summit. Two-thirds of Canadians (69%) are disgusted, 59% are ashamed, 57% are angry, and 54% are sad. In Toronto, the proportion of respondents who reported negative feelings was higher (Disgust 81%, Anger 74%, Sadness 65%, Shame 61%).

Good job activists! Way to seize an opportunity and make it yours!

National Post
 http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/07/02/poll-finds-g20-protesters-blew-it-big-time/#ixzz0sidVSWcs

                (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## George Wallace

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Poll finds G20 protesters blew it big time:
> 
> Those demonstrations during the G20 summit sure did a lot of good for the activist community.
> 
> Here they had a chance to make a political point on some crucial issues at a moment when attention across the world was temporarily focused on Toronto.
> 
> So what did they achieve? According to Angus Reid they disgusted the vast majority of the people they were trying to woo:
> 
> Respondents were asked about their feelings about the demonstrations that took place in Toronto during the G20 summit. Two-thirds of Canadians (69%) are disgusted, 59% are ashamed, 57% are angry, and 54% are sad. In Toronto, the proportion of respondents who reported negative feelings was higher (Disgust 81%, Anger 74%, Sadness 65%, Shame 61%).
> 
> Good job activists! Way to seize an opportunity and make it yours!
> 
> National Post
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/07/02/poll-finds-g20-protesters-blew-it-big-time/#ixzz0sidVSWcs
> 
> (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)



Had a majority of the legitimate protestors taken the same attitude and acted as the fellow from the B of M who is all over http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1n5KthCmY then I am sure that these statistics would have been different.  By their actions of inaction to stop the anarchists from the destruction of property, the legitimate protestors lost everything.


----------



## George Wallace

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Your information is not correct. Union Station was open during the G20 and GO Transit was operating a normal schedule. There was a disruption Saturday because of the lock-downs, but service resumed again on Sunday. VIA was not operating out of Union. It looks like this guy is just a nerd who possibly spends way too much time playing online games and oblivious to the fact their was a major event with heightened security outside the front doors of Union.
> 
> http://news.globaltv.com/story.html?id=3083907
> 
> http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100627/toronto_G20_shutdowns_100627/20100627/?hub=TorontoNewHome
> 
> _edited VIA info_





*Via Rail will not use Toronto Union Station during G20 * 




> Toronto — The Canadian Press
> Published on Thursday, Jun. 03, 2010 9:40PM EDT
> Last updated on Friday, Jun. 04, 2010 10:11AM EDT
> 
> 
> .Via Rail Canada says it will be moving its operations out of Toronto's Union Station during the G20 Summit at the end of June.
> 
> Via says it will use suburban stations from June 24 through 27.
> 
> Stations in Oakville, Brampton, Oshawa and north Toronto will be used during the summit period.
> 
> Passengers with Via connections will be shuttled between suburban stations to their connecting trains.
> 
> Via says it will make every effort to minimize shuttle travel times, but advises that travellers should expect delays.
> 
> Additionally, due to extremely low advance ticket sales, Via says it will be operating a weekend schedule during those dates.
> 
> “Due to the proximity of Union Station to the main meeting location we know that there will be major congestion,” said Via president Marc Laliberte.
> 
> “We regret the inconvenience these changes may cause, but we believe that making them well in advance and communicating this information to travellers now will help minimize access issues for our customers.”



*TTC, GO Train Halt Service To Downtown Core, Union Station Closed * 

2010/06/26 | CityNews.ca Staff 

Both the TTC and GO Transit have temporarily stopped service to the downtown due to the G20 and subsequent protests.

Union Station is also closed.  


Toronto Police requested that both public transit bodies shut down core routes over safety issues. 

If you planned on taking the better way on Saturday, be advised: subways are turning back at Bloor Station and St. George Station. As well, there is no bus or streetcar service between Broadview Ave. and Spadina Ave., south from Bloor St.

Shortly after 6pm, the TTC began running shuttle buses from Bathurst Station to Front Street. Parliament buses were also up and running between Castle Frank Station and Front Street.


Earlier in the day, it was just the Lakeshore east and west lines that were affected. Now, all GO Transit routes have been temporarily suspended. All trains will go out of service once they reach their respective destinations.

GO buses all also affected: All trips from the west will terminate at the Yorkdale Bus Terminal and all trips from the east will terminate at the York Mills Bus Terminal.


They're not the only ones closing up shop because of the summit - to see what else is open and closed during the G20, click here.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*McGuinty doesn't rue secrecy on G20 law*
02/07/2010 11:36:31 PM

LINK 

*The Ontario government should have done more to inform the public about broad police powers to search and arrest people within Toronto's G20 summit perimeter, Premier Dalton McGuinty acknowledged Friday.*

"Some confusion arose, and in hindsight I think that we could have, and probably should have, done something to make it perfectly clear to people," McGuinty said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

He said his government could have "done a better job" of informing people about the temporary, powers-granting regulation the cabinet passed on June 2.

But McGuinty said he doesn't feel he owes the public an apology for what happened during the summit last weekend.

The temporary powers regulation, which will only be published in the official Ontario Gazette on Saturday, five days after it lapsed, became publicly known when a man was arrested two days before the summit for refusing to provide ID to police while exploring the fence around the G20 "red" zone.

Promulgated under the provincial Public Works Protection Act, the regulation designated the fence and public areas within it as a "public work." As a result, police had several typically unconstitutional powers:

- To require anyone entering the red zone to identify themselves and state their purpose for being there.

- To search anyone entering the zone.

- To demand from anyone found in the zone that they prove their authority for being there.

- To arrest anyone refusing to obey these requirements.

In several pre-summit meetings between civil liberties advocates and security personnel, and in interviews with reporters who specifically asked about the laws that would be used to secure the G20, officials never mentioned the new police powers.

McGuinty said Friday that "there were ads placed in newspapers, and a note was put on our website and a note was put on the City of Toronto's website," but he conceded readers wouldn't have necessarily known "what we were actually talking about."

The advertisements did not mention the Public Works Protection Act or any special regulations, nor police's new arrest powers or the penalty for breaking the act - a fine of up to $500 and up to two months in jail.

Mass arrests, random searches

The Canadian Civil Liberties Association and others blame the government for confusion over the exact powers held by police during the summit.

Well away from the G20 zone, constables were systematically stopping, interrogating, demanding ID from and searching people in public spaces. In many cases, officers snatched items they found during those searches, including bandanas, scarves, black clothing, goggles, recreation medieval armour and gas masks.

Police also arrested nearly 1,000 people during the G20 and the G8 meeting that preceded it in Huntsville, Ont. Several hundred of those were in mass roundups of protesters, bystanders and media at peaceful sit-ins straddling the Toronto G20 zone.

And it was widely reported and thought that the new, temporary police arrest powers extended to a five-metre tranche beyond the G20 zone. Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair said as much in a news conference last Friday, before admitting Tuesday that the five-metre buffer never existed.

The Works Protection Act regulation lapsed on Monday, a week after it went into effect.

It won't necessarily fade into history, though. One of the two people arrested for breaching the regulation has said he will contest the charges against him by challenging the act's constitutionality.

Crown lawyers could obviate that challenge, however, by dropping the charges.

With files from The Canadian Press



======================================================================
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*Toronto G20 Security, road closures, fence perimeter and your rights!*
Saturday, 26 June 2010 07:44 
Written by Glen Allen 

LINK 

Today we learned that the police standing guard outside the G8 and G20 summits have been granted special temporary powers by legislation that was passed by Ontario's cabinet on June 2nd, 2010 without debate. These powers will only last for the seven days around the time of the summit and are set to expire on June 28th. The laws require anyone that approaches within 5 metres of the security fence to supply security personnel with identification, submit to a search and explain why they are in the area. If they refuse to co-operate, they can be arrested and fined up to $500 and cold face up to 2 months in jail.

The regulation was passed under the province's Public Works Protection Act; the cabinet responded to an "extraordinary request" made by Toronto's Police Chief Bill Blair. The 5 metre buffer zone is being used to protect the fence itself since the police want to ensure that no one has an opportunity to pull down the fence that is being used to separate the world's VIPs from the unwashed masses of Canadian society. I'd like to know who came up with the seemingly random distance of 5 metres since it appears nowhere in the Act. What happens if you stand precisely 6 metres from the fence; are you in violation of the Act? The Act also refers constantly to "public works". If you live in a condo that you own within the secure zone but require access through a publicly owned street, does the law still apply in the same fashion since the condo is obviously privately owned? If I thought that the fence was actually there to protect the VIPs from terrorists, I would feel somewhat differently but I believe that it exists solely to keep the "small people" (us) away from the "important people (them).

From the Public Works Protection Act, here is the pertinent section about identifying yourself. Remember, don't leave home without it (your wallet that is)!


*Powers of guard or peace officer*


3.A guard or peace officer,
(a) may require any person entering or attempting to enter any public work or any approach thereto to furnish his or her name and address, to identify himself or herself and to state the purpose for which he or she desires to enter the public work, in writing or otherwise;
(b) may search, without warrant, any person entering or attempting to enter a public work or a vehicle in the charge or under the control of any such person or which has recently been or is suspected of having been in the charge or under the control of any such person or in which any such person is a passenger; and
(c) may refuse permission to any person to enter a public work and use such force as is necessary to prevent any such person from so entering. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.55, s. 3.


Here is the pertinent section about the penalties for disobeying your local security official:


*Refusal to obey guard, etc.*

5.(1)Every person who neglects or refuses to comply with a request or direction made under this Act by a guard or peace officer, and every person found upon a public work or any approach thereto without lawful authority, the proof whereof lies on him or her, is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $500 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than two months, or to both.
Arrest
(2)A guard or peace officer may arrest, without warrant, any person who neglects or refuses to comply with a request or direction of a guard or peace officer, or who is found upon or attempting to enter a public work without lawful authority. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.55, s. 5.


What I found interesting was flipping through the pages of comments posted by online readers following the articles in the online versions of the major Canadian newspapers (Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, National Post). It seemed that there was about a 50;50 split between those that thought the law was a good idea to maintain control over the "protesting hoodlum element" and those that thought that the law was a very bad idea and that it infringed on the rights of people to pass freely through the society. I also took into account the "thumbs up" and "thumbs down" that other readers use to rank comments made. I had actually expected a far stronger anti-legislation movement than there appeared to be. I'm not certain whether readers responses in favour of the use of this legislation reflects the movement of Canadian society to the right, people's frustration with the hooligan element who actually negate the power of protests by legitimate interest groups or that it just reflects the nature of Canadians that take the time to post their feelings online.

On a personal note, I'm totally against the use of this legislation in this particular case, unfortunately, the powers that we have elected "democratically" seem helpless in the face of a few thugs who may cause problems for the rest of society. It's kind of like being back in junior high when the teacher threatened detentions for the entire class for the misdeeds of one or two students. We are all being tarred with the same brush whether we are guilty or not. One thing I do think; the implementation of this legislation for the duration of these summits should have been made public long before today. That is the least that our elected officials could have done for those who voted them into positions of power. We deserve to know exactly what you are doing on our behalf.

=====================================================================

It might be noted that Union Station, as did numerous other public infrastructure, already fell under this legislation, before temporary measures were put into place.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm not biased towards McGuinty, I hardly know who the guy is. I couldn't identify him if his picture was infront of me.

Reading all these news articles I'm really getting the feeling that he is incompitent and doesn't really have a clue.

I'm no expert but to me making citizens clearly aware of a new law (Or old law which you are tempoairily whipping out) which drastically effects a police officers power of search and arrest, for an event that is going to attract THOUSANDS of people,  seems very important. I would say top of the list.

It's almost too dumb. I'm trying to think of an advantage for the police/gov't to drag their feet play dumb and act like they didn't know any better but I can't think of why NOT telling the public (and lets be honest, it seems like the avoided it on purpose) would be a good move.
Maybe the intention was to frustrate and anger the protestors on purpose so we could make sweeping arrests?  Get them mad, let their ignorance of the law provoke them into 'crossing the line' and police just throw them in custody to get them out of the way? That seems possible.


----------



## mariomike

3 July 2010:
"Is a class-action lawsuit against Toronto Police Services for their conduct during the G20 inevitable?":
http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/07/is_a_class-action_lawsuit_against_toronto_police_services_for_their_conduct_during_the_g20_inevitable/

2007:
"Lawsuits drive up legal bills for police":
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/185690

"While Toronto doesn't release details about how much litigation costs taxpayers, the agenda for a recent conference on municipal and provincial liability stated that lawsuits against Toronto police have cost more than $30 million since 1998." ( 2007 )

Reveille in Allan Gardens:
http://www.thestar.com/videozone/829009


----------



## 57Chevy

I don't see any problem with that.
If I so happen to have been there and a police officer approached me for one reason or another,
asking me to produce my ID, I would have produced it outright. Why not ? What infringement on
my rights would that constitute ?  I have nothing to hide.....I am not there to make any sort of 
trouble.
I would assume that he would be in the right to ask me for my ID. Wouldn't I ? Why would I say
no ? To cause some sort of provocation ? A shadow of suspicion ?
That shouldn't bother anyone. How many times does our IDs come flying out of our wallets when
it for our own benefit. Like making a police report. Or to the LCBO (for the younger guys).
And if the police officer told me that I was in a place where I shouldn't be.....I would leave.
I think that is what most people in their right state of mind would do.
Even if the police splattered posters of said regulations all over town......Instigators would have ripped them down and things might have turned out even worse.


----------



## Kirkhill

It seems to me, based on the Regs that George just posted that all McGuinty did was designate the Security Zone as equivalent to an Armoury or a CF Base or a police station for the duration of the summit.

If a loiterer spends too much time leaning up against the chainlink fence around those establishments I would expect a Constable or Commissionaire to come out and challenge the loiterer.  Especially if dressed like a ninj wannabe.  I believe they have the right to ask the loiterer to move along or show ID and lack of intent, including asking to see the contents of a back pack.   They also seem to have the right to arrest and temporarily detain anyone who doesn't comply with their requests.

All Chief Blair seems to have done is establish to his officers and the public what he would consider being "on the approaches".  He set the line at 5 meters from the fence.  Perhaps he would have done bettter to set the line a block from the fence to allow his officers more time for observation, orientation and decision prior to being forced to act.   How would you lot feel about being tasked to defend a feature and being told you couldn't operate more than 5m forward of the feature?

Perhaps we should all be grateful they didn't give Blair's job to a Former Naval Person.  For the Navy "the approaches" are measured in hundreds of kilometers.  Ontario's borders could be seen as being "on the approaches".


----------



## Jarnhamar

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I don't see any problem with that.
> If I so happen to have been there and a police officer approached me for one reason or another,
> asking me to produce my ID, I would have produced it outright. Why not ? What infringement on
> my rights would that constitute ?  I have nothing to hide.....I am not there to make any sort of
> trouble.
> I would assume that he would be in the right to ask me for my ID. Wouldn't I ? Why would I say
> no ? To cause some sort of provocation ? A shadow of suspicion ?
> That shouldn't bother anyone. How many times does our IDs come flying out of our wallets when
> it for our own benefit. Like making a police report. Or to the LCBO (for the younger guys).
> And if the police officer told me that I was in a place where I shouldn't be.....I would leave.
> I think that is what most people in their right state of mind would do.
> Even if the police splattered posters of said regulations all over town......Instigators would have ripped them down and things might have turned out even worse.



Would you feel the same if you were in your uniform walking to work and the police stopped you in a high speed take down, asked you what you were doing and when you said you were not a part of the protests and produced your ID they arrested you anyways and kept you locked up for nearly 2 days?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/830858--ttc-worker-caught-in-g20-police-sweep

Even if the police would have put up posters that were torn down, it shows a due diligence by the police to inform the public. If the posters are taken down then the blame shifts to those responsible.

I don't understand why the cops are snatching people out of the crowd (okay I do) but didn't eyes on and storm the street when the black block was smashing stuff.

Unrelated
I got a kick out of the cop at 20 seconds into the video, she looks like something from clash of the titans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XgEI5dCrE&feature=player_embedded


----------



## 57Chevy

That's pretty unfortunate for that one person. I agree. But......how many people who were asked to 
produce an ID or move back somewhat did so without hesitation. Quite a few I imagine. You won't
be finding any of those videos on youtube.
The police did in fact inform the public through many national and local newspapers..........to little
avail to the provocative protester type, of course.
Of the second video..........She's quite the scary one ;D


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> I'm not biased towards McGuinty, I hardly know who the guy is. I couldn't identify him if his picture was infront of me.



Think Norman Bates.


----------



## 57Chevy

Hopefully this will be the last of the news articles on this subject :
  _______________________________________________________________________________
Holding G20 summit Toronto was a 'mistake': Poll

On the heels of a costly G20 summit that saw violent clashes between protesters and police, an Ipsos Reid poll says more than two-thirds of Toronto-area residents believe it was a mistake to hold the summit in their city.

Sixty-two per cent of Canadians also agreed it was a mistake, according to the poll — conducted for Global News and CFRB Radio.

However, 44 per cent of Canadians and 39 per cent of Toronto-area residents agreed that "despite the inconvenience and problems, the G20 summit was worth having in Toronto given the actual results reached by leaders."

Federal officials have faced harsh criticism, both before and after the G20 summit, over concerns the meeting was an expensive, unnecessary disruption in the heart of Canada's largest city.

Restaurants have claimed losses in revenue and some social justice groups have called for a public inquiry into police conduct during the summit.

Amid protests that saw police cars burned, windows smashed and police clash violently with protesters, there were over 1,000 arrests — many of which critics claim were unjustified.

Representatives from the Council of Canadians, Toronto Street Medics and a group of university professors, among others, continued to allege Monday that people were detained without reasonable and probable grounds, sexually harassed, denied access to counsel and left in handcuffs for extended periods of time while detained.

Nearly 1,100 people were arrested, with 714 charged with breach of peace before eventually being released.

Ryan White, a lawyer with a group called the Movement Defence Committee, said about 16 people are still in custody facing charges.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has so far refused to call for a public inquiry.

Despite this, the Ipsos poll indicates many in Toronto had no problem with the police conduct.

Eighty-one per cent of Toronto-area residents and 76 per cent of Canadians overall said they believed the police did a good job during the summit, "all things considered," the poll reported.

Seventy-four per cent of Toronto-area residents and 71 per cent of Canadians said they agreed that the police "properly balanced appropriate force and restraint given the circumstances . . ."

Seventy-one per cent of Canadians said they agreed that police were prepared to handle "violent hooligans" in Toronto, while 29 per cent of Canadians disagreed.

The majority of Canadians and Toronto-area residents said they agreed that the police found a good balance between protecting the summit leaders and allowing people to voice their views on the street.

A minority — 34 per cent of Canadians and 29 per cent of Toronto-area residents — disagreed.

The poll was conducted between June 30 and July 5, 2010 and a sample of 1,859 Canadian adults, 683 from the Greater Toronto Area, were interviewed online.
The poll has an estimated margin of error of 2.3 percentage points, plus or minus, 19 times out of 10.
 http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/canada/Holding+summit+Toronto+mistake+Poll/3238763/story.html#ixzz0sr2CGoyO

          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remember the LRAD court cases?  Bottom line of decisions issued today:  TPS has changed its SOPs (in line with OPP), so the court says they're good to go using it on land, even in "Alert" mode (with new rules in line with OPP).


----------



## mariomike

July 6, 2010:

"Toronto police board orders civilian review of G20 security: The Toronto police services board has called for an independent civilian review of the way security was handled by police during the G20 summit.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/832542--g20-security-to-get-long-look-from-independent-civilian


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the police board:


> TORONTO POLICE SERVICES BOARD ESTABLISHES
> INDEPENDENT CIVILIAN REVIEW OF THE OVERSIGHT OF G20 POLICING
> 
> Toronto – The Toronto Police Services Board is establishing an Independent Civilian Review, to identify and study issues raised by the public and Board members regarding oversight, governance, accountability, transparency and the communications and supervision issues arising from a multi-jurisdictional model of policing in the context of the governance role and policies of the Toronto Police Services Board.
> 
> “In the week since the G20 Summit, the Board has taken the time to meet, identify issues and concerns and develop a reasoned approach to review the oversight and policy aspects of policing at the G20 Summit,” said Toronto Police Services Board Chair Alok Mukherjee. “We believe that this Independent Civilian Review is the most appropriate way forward and is in keeping with the Board’s history of taking measured and reasoned approaches to key civilian oversight issues.”
> 
> Subject to the Terms of Reference developed by the Reviewer, in consultation with the Board, the Reviewer may seek the input of any individuals, agencies, organizations or associations who have information that could assist in the review.
> 
> In addition, the Reviewer will review relevant legal authorities, policies and practices as well as decision-making structures and processes with respect to policing in place during the Summit.
> 
> Following completion of the Independent Civilian Review, the Reviewer will submit a report to the Board with recommendations related to policy, structural and systemic issues for consideration and any action, as deemed necessary.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Highlights mine:


> .... An aversion to these armed, dangerous and blatantly unaccountable forces of the corporate state has been framed in court in the language of mental disAbility. According to the courts, those who hate cops are engaging in anti-social and mentally unstable behaviours. We find this ludicrous. Hating cops is a perfectly valid and celebrated response to systematic, organized thuggery and repression.
> 
> To dissent by any means necessary against the systems that oppress us is not a sign of mental instability. Rather, this dissent is a brief glimpse of sanity in a world clearly gone insane. Building constructive alternatives is of course fundamental, but so too are the acts that tear down all that collaboratively oppress us. *Shattered banks and police cars engulfed in flames, far from being a scene of carnage, are truly beautiful things. They mark a crack in the facade, a weakness in the dam that attempts to hold us from bursting through in an expression our overflowing love and rage, waves that nourish our communities in expressions of true freedom* ....



_This_ is why one presumes worst-case scenarios in assessing public security needs (and how much it costs) - more (if you can stomach it) in the attached.


----------



## mariomike

July 07, 2010: 
The Canadian Press:

"Another G20 in Toronto? No thanks says premier: 
TORONTO - Ontario's premier says he'd rather not see another G20 summit in Toronto — ever.":

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/indepth/id_world_economy/s/capress/100707/national/g8_g20_no_more_1


----------



## 57Chevy

I don't blame him one iota.
As I said before, they should always hold such mettings
somewhere near the most northerly coast of our country.


----------



## Teflon

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I don't blame him one iota.
> As I said before, they should always hold such mettings
> somewhere near the most northerly coast of our country.



What if they held a G20 and 19 of the 20 decided to go somewhere warmer?


----------



## 57Chevy

Then I guess ice would hit the fan ;D


----------



## mariomike

Where Canada decides to host its next G20 likely will not be an issue for twenty years. 

Sun:
"Boosting post-G20 tourism a priority: Luring tourists back to Toronto’s downtown area following the chaotic and violent G20 weekend is a top priority for businesses and city officials.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/07/07/14634956.html

"City council commends “outstanding” police G20 work: 
Ford says no inquiry needed, police were “too nice”:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/833106--city-council-commends-outstanding-police-g20-work

"Police union chief dismisses G20 review: 
The head of the Toronto Police union is calling an independent civilian review of G20 policing a "lame duck" inquiry because it has no legal power to effect changes in police operations.":
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/07/07/mccormack-g20-police-review414.html


----------



## the 48th regulator

Uhoh.....

A Soldier Serving in Afghanistan's Letter to the #G20 Police

dileas

tess


----------



## Teeps74

Tess, I am dumbfounded by that one... Shooting from the hip without all data is never advised, in that the "soldier" who posted is correct... Then he turns around and shoots from the hip without all the data.

Christ.


----------



## George Wallace

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Uhoh.....
> 
> A Soldier Serving in Afghanistan's Letter to the #G20 Police
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Ya know Tess, it has been pointed out so many times here on this site about what the CF does and what the "Armchair Generals" at home are commenting on.  Here we can see the same thing.  A rant set off by the "Caribou" of a relative Eric J had who was silly enough not to stay at home and watch the "play by play" on TV, but had to go out and partake in the nonsense.  Just like in the military that Eric J serves and gets orders from, so did the Police.  Were they always the best orders to give or follow can also be equated to those that Eric J gets as a Service member.  I am sure even Eric J has had indecisive, confusing and/or bad orders given to him to follow.   Still not an excuse for mistakes at higher levels, but then how many here have seen first hand all the behind the scenes decision making.  I am just as sure that 99.9999% of the people reading this have no idea of what "intelligence" the various agencies gathered on the various anarchist and protest groups that would have lead to the tactics witnessed in people being grabbed from out of a crowd and arrested.  Even now the Police are asking for photos and video from the thousands of "witnesses/participants" to add to those they already have to convict the anarchists still in jail.






Caribou:  Has to be the dumbest animal on the planet.  Grazes in a herd numbering in the thousands, yet when hunted does not have the brains to stampede.  Sheeple would stampede.  Not Caribou.  Watch the G20 footage.  Caribou.


----------



## the 48th regulator

I am on the belief that he/she is not a serving over in the Sanbox soldier.

Knowledgeable yes, but, I call BS.  Then again.......I am revolutionary in some of my thoughts...

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I am on the belief that he/she is not a serving over in the Sanbox soldier.
> 
> Knowledgeable yes, but, I call BS.  Then again.......I am revolutionary in some of my thoughts...
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Did the "I managed to fight and win battles while vastly outnumbered, against a heavily armed, mobile, guerilla force with as few as 10 fellow Canadians." set off your spider senses?


----------



## Teeps74

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Did the "I managed to fight and win battles while vastly outnumbered, against a heavily armed, mobile, guerilla force with as few as 10 fellow Canadians." set off your spider senses?



Set off mine... But alas, I am being, diplomatic, and giving him a shred of possibility.


----------



## the 48th regulator

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Did the "I managed to fight and win battles while vastly outnumbered, against a heavily armed, mobile, guerilla force with as few as 10 fellow Canadians." set off your spider senses?



The fact that a blog quoted from a "reputable" media called the Torontoist....

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

The latest news article in the "when will it ever end Toronto protest saga" op:
         _____________________________________________________________________
Opposition pushing for committee hearings on G20 security
 link 
OTTAWA — Opposition MPs are trying to trigger parliamentary committee hearings into the street violence and allegations of police violations of civil rights during the G20 summit in Toronto.

But the government appears to oppose the plan.

New Democratic Party MP Don Davies has collected signatures from opposition MPs forcing the recall of the House of Commons public safety committee to a meeting by Monday to debate and vote on a motion to hold hearings.

Davies said in an interview Wednesday that some officials must be held accountable since nearly $1 billion in federal public funds were spent on security for the June 26-27 summit of world leaders hosted by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

"For $1 billion we were promised that there wouldn't be violence and there was," Davies said. "We were told that civil liberties would be respected and they weren't."

more on link
          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act


----------



## mariomike

"TORONTO (Friday, July 9, 2010) – Ontario Ombudsman André Marin today announced he is launching an investigation into the origin and subsequent communication of the controversial security regulation passed by the province prior to the June 26-27 G20 summit.":
http://www.ombudsman.on.ca/en/media/press-releases/2010/ontario-ombudsman-to-investigate-g20-security-regulation.aspx

Sun:
June 30, 2010:
"Warmington: Cops had hands 'cuffed":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/06/30/14564416.html


----------



## Kirkhill

In reference in to the Warmington column and the presence of the Montreal Riot Squad:

I wonder how many of them recognized their usual "playmates" in the mob.


----------



## mariomike

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> In reference in to the Warmington column and the presence of the Montreal Riot Squad:
> 
> I wonder how many of them recognized their usual "playmates" in the mob.



"Round up the usual suspects."
Captain Renault in Casablanca  

7 July, 2010:
Toronto Police: "Police are asking the public to identify people responsible for the vandalism, burning and theft to a scout car.":
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/19223.pdf


----------



## Fusaki

A little bit of _Alternative Media_ to fuel the fire...

http://vimeo.com/13097041

I maintain my position that there needs to be a public inquiry and that people need to be held accountable.


----------



## mariomike

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I maintain my position that there needs to be a public inquiry and that people need to be held accountable.



It looks like you are not alone:
July 9, 2010:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/g20/2010/07/09/14663741.html

Fri Jul 9 2010: "Day of Action for Civil Liberties’ demands public inquiry":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/834408--marchers-to-protest-g20-police-actions-traffic-delays-expected

"G20 Fallout":
http://www.sgmlaw.com/en/newsevents/SGMNewsDetail.cfm?ID=211


----------



## Container

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2010/07/06/14629166.html


http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/833106--city-council-commends-outstanding-police-g20-work

Of course protesters found another reason to protest. 

Respectfully Wonderbread-

What exactly are we going to get from a multimillion dollar inquiry? I enjoyed your previous posts and look forward to your response so I can consider "the other side".

Tongue in cheek I think the following sum it up:

1) dont use imaginary police powers and dont exagerate the ones you have.(which ever this was a case of)
2) Make sure and have your exhibit officers vet what you plan on putting on display.
3) Crush the protest at the earliest possible sign of any trouble. Otherwise people will whine that on one day the "city burned and the police did nothing" and on the following day "did too much".
4) Most importantly stop holding these meetings in huge urban centers. 

Did I miss anything?


----------



## George Wallace

Let me get this right now.  Toronto and Canadians complained that the G8/G20 security was going to be $1 Billion.  Now they all want an inquiry into G8/G20 security which will likely cost more than $1 Billion.  Am I missing something here?


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let me get this right now.  Toronto and Canadians complained that the G8/G20 security was going to be $1 Billion.  Now they all want an inquiry into G8/G20 security which will likely cost more than $1 Billion.  Am I missing something here?



I agree. From the time I read that Ottawa decided to host "OMG"20 in downtown Toronto, my first concern was casualties. Fortunately, they were minimal. 
My second concern was, *after the lawyers are finished*, how much is the fall-out going to cost?

"Licence to riot":
http://www.nationalpost.com/Licence+riot/3259353/story.html
"And no wonder urban guerrillas felt that they had a licence to destroy Toronto."

"Chain of command questioned in G20: Toronto police wasn’t always in charge":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/834287--chain-of-command-questioned-in-g20

"G20 inquiry could be helpful, deputy chief says": 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/g20-inquiry-could-be-helpful-deputy-chief-says/article1633876/

"G20 review will focus on decision-making process: police board chair": 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/g20-review-will-focus-on-decision-making-process-police-board-chair/article1635393/

"Miller sorry some people got detained during G20 summit":
http://www.nationalpost.com/Miller+sorry+some+people+detained+during+summit/3259335/story.html

"Blair may testify on 5-metre rule":
http://www.nationalpost.com/Blair+testify+metre+rule/3259328/story.html

"We need a G20 probe":
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/need+probe/3254352/story.html


----------



## 57Chevy

Like I said....."when will it ever end Toronto protest saga" op:

 Next there will probably be talk of making a movie about it.
 Or worse...........a soap opera


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> What exactly are we going to get from a multimillion dollar inquiry?



We will be reassured that Canada is not a police state.

There are widespread allegations of police misconduct.  While I admit that some of these allegations come from criminals attempting to distort the facts to promote their fringe group agenda, there are many reasonable, moderate, _regular_ people who believe they saw the police break the law.

Given the above, it's not necessary to _prove_ that there was police misconduct to justify an inquiry.  There just needs to be a strong enough suspicion that the police were out of line.

A multimillion dollar inquiry will be the first step in setting the record straight.  We need to know the extent of the criminal threat, and how far the police went to protect us from it.  We need to know who made the decisions, and what information those decisions were based on.  If it's found that a police broke the law, he needs to be prosecuted just like any other criminal.  

Every time drunk kid pisses on a war memorial, people around here get their panties in a knot.  What people forget is that a war memorial is really just a pile of rock.  Our country would get along just fine without it.  What we need to be worrying about is those who piss on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  It's those Canadian _values_ that define us, and it's those _ideas_ that all those who've gone before us in Europe, Afghanistan, and elsewhere died to defend.  When I think about my friends who are deployed right now, and the one's who've come back without limbs or worse, I don't justify their sacrifice because some day someone will build a statue of a soldier on patrol in Panjwaii.  I justify it because I believe it's necessary to protect our way of life, or laws, and our freedoms.

I believe that if people are messing with that, they need to be held accountable.


----------



## mariomike

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> A multimillion dollar inquiry will be the first step in setting the record straight.



I would prefer to see that money go to keeping the arenas and pools open for the kids living in this city. To the children's breakfast clubs. The women's shelters, etc. 

When you think of how much good work that money already spent in Toronto could have done:
http://www.breakfastclubs.ca/clubs.php


----------



## Container

Wonderbread-

I guess thats why we wont agree. The idea that you need a reassurance that Canada isnt a "police state" makes this impossible for us to reconcile. We live in a country that stays criminal charges if the police use to much force. As it should. We live in a country where the police cannot point a forward looking infrared device at a house believed to have a gorw operation inside without a warrant. Because the infrared information it gives off has an expectation of privacy.

Further more, recently the courts had to decide whether the police in a helicopter flying over public property that see a grow operation in the middle of the open (but in someones property) constitutes an illegal search.

We do not live in a police state. 

The simple fact is that according to common law, which is hundreds of years old, and the basis of our legal system I dont have to wait for you to break the law. If I have a reasonable belief that you are about to break the law, and this gets even hazier in a riot, I can arrest you for having never actually done anything. I have to justify it afterwards and if im wrong you can apply for a big cash reward but you are under arrest.

This was the law 50 years ago and it is the law today.

As for criminality on the part of the police- Inquiries cant charge people and often police officers will not testify unless it is stated explicitly that their testimony cannot be used to charge them. Which is a right every Canadian has- just like you dont have to make a statement at all.

With reference to the War Memorial- police officers died in the "wars" as well. They die in other countries for the Canadian way of life. The Canadian forces bear the highest percentage of that sacrifice. Of that there can be no doubt. But you do not own it exclusively. Many people, even cops, want our way of life to continue. I love my freedoms. When I see assholes abuse those freedoms It bothers me intensely.

At a public demonstartion I had a jar of human piss thrown on me- the other protesters "the peacefull ones" were just fine with that. And when I was in the CF I had someone on a bus start screaming at me that I was a baby killer. I have no patience for these people.


----------



## 57Chevy

To put it real simple......we live in a society filled with corruption and very little justice.
                   And from the looks of things, it's not going to be getting any better soon.


----------



## Container

Yup.

I aim to take care of my family and friends. Ive set aside my young mans ambition to save the world.


----------



## Kirkhill

You're welcome at my hearth, fellow cynic, anytime.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> G20 march hits T.O.'s streets


http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/07/10/14673621.html



> Almost 1,500 protesters calling for a public inquiry into policing during the G20 summit marched through Toronto’s downtown area Saturday.
> 
> Participants representing a wide range of groups condemned more than 1,000 G20 arrests last month.
> 
> “We want to know ... who gave the order to turn our city into a police state,” said Judy Rebick, a Ryerson professor and veteran left-wing activist.
> 
> Speakers at Queen’s Park did not mention the thugs who torched four cruisers, smashed windows, then shed their Black Bloc disguises.



More at link.  It's the usual drivel, but from the comments section:



> CrashBandicoot - July 10th 2010, 9:58pm
> 
> I'm tired of all the comments equating Toronto during the G20 with Nazi Germany. Get over yourselves - we're not living in 1938, the Toronto Police are not the Gestapo (which was Germany's police force, the SS was military) and Stephen Harper is not Adolf Hitler. If that were true, this forum wouldn't even exist. And besides, where are the concentration camps, and how many people "disappeared" after the G20?
> 
> If you really want to talk Nazi Germany...who perpetuated Kristallnacht during the G20...the smashing of store windows of people they wanted to intimidate?


----------



## ModlrMike

> If you really want to talk Nazi Germany...who perpetuated Kristallnacht during the G20...the smashing of store windows of people they wanted to intimidate?




An excellent question... but one that will go unanswered by the wailing masses of the self-righteously indignant.


----------



## mariomike

I think "Reductio ad Hitlerum" covers that:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches."


----------



## ModlrMike

I'm sure Godwin's Law was invoked with the first post... probably even before the G8/G20 kicked off. I think the author of the question was attempting to throw the accusations back where they belonged, rather than make the comparison himself.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Regardless, two Godwins does not make a Reich.    ;D


----------



## armyvern

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Regardless, two Godwins does not make a Reich.    ;D



Your comment touches on all the Reichs marx.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security talks about it today:


> (....)
> Meeting No. 29
> Monday, July 12, 2010
> 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m.
> Room 253-D, Centre Block
> 
> Orders of the Day
> 
> Meeting Requested by Four (4) Members of the Committee to Undertake a Study of the Issues Surrounding Security at the G8 and G20 Summits
> 
> (....)



More on the procedural nitty-gritty here at CBC.ca.


----------



## George Wallace

So?  The "Public" who complained so much about the $1 Billion price tag, has no qualms about spending another $1 Billion to have an (or several) inquiry into the whole thing.  

I would suggest that the people demanding this, do it themselves au gratus, and we will then file the Report away with all the others.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> We will be reassured that Canada is not a police state.



Seriously, where do you live?  Are you kidding me?  WTF would EVER suggest that Canada is anything that barely resembles a police state?!? Because the police in Toronto had to apply sections of the Ways & Means Act to make sure the city got through relatively unscathed?  They did the best with what they had.  You cannot possibly suggest there is some systemic issue when these actions were done for a couple of days in a situation of extreme crisis.  Take the leash off the lads the first day.  If Toronto hadn't have been so bloody soft handed, they could have averted lots of damage.  
But no.
They don't let the units do what is right and these clowns get emboldened to cause more and more damage.  Lighting a cruiser on fire with an officer in it for instance.  
So people got checked and ID'ed.  Big fracking deal.  How bad can it be? Does it happen every day? No.  
Seriously guy, get over it.  If these idiots don't like how it works, they can either not show up, do something in the face of blatant criminality or be prepared for a hickory massage.  
And guess what?  If it went to a simple vote, most Canadians would chose to see all the black class arse-clowns getting stomped by the horrible police you are so quick to denigrate.  There may be a massive air of tolerance all around, but all over the place I meet and talk to people who are simmering just below the surface.  A few more of these things, a few more violent actions with almost no repercussions, the scale is going to tip.  Then, some right wing politician is going to suggest some really kick azz legislation and actually maybe hold people accountable for their actions (horrifying a concept for some).  Then tubesteaks like you can look back at what you brought about by supporting idiocy and think "gee, I guess things were not that bad back then".  
[/rant]

Spending one more cent on this fiasco beyond prosecuting all the idiot children is pointless.


----------



## 57Chevy

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Given the above, it's not necessary to _prove_ that there was police misconduct to justify an inquiry.  There just needs to be a strong enough suspicion that the police were out of line.



 Now Isn't that exactly what the anarchists want. A little more weakening of security forces. So the
next time there is a riot for any reason whatsoever, they can go about freely detroying all sorts of
private/public property. And if the cops try to do anything to stop them, Then the "police brutality"
cries become even louder. 
Hey everybody............The police were out of line!!!!!!.......I think not.
I think it's outta line just suggesting an inquiry.


----------



## George Wallace

I am interested to see how the first anarchist (from SOAR) to go to trial today fairs in court with his defence.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*
Man detained for allegedly inciting violence at G20 faces Toronto judge*
Tue Jul. 13 2010 7:16:28 AM 
The Canadian Press


LINK 

TORONTO — A man accused of orchestrating violence during the G20 protests will face a judge today.

Peter Hopperton is one of 20 people being investigated by police for their alleged role in planning violence during the recent summit.

Police say Hopperton is a member of the Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance.

Yesterday, the court released two people accused of sparking violence over the summit weekend.

Montreal-based activist Jaggi Singh was granted release on $85,000 bail.

But he remains under house arrest and has agreed not to participate in demonstrations while on bail -- conditions he calls "humiliating."

=====================================================

*
Two more people arrested in G20 protests granted bail*
Mon Jul. 12 2010 1:44:01 PM 
The Canadian Press


LINK 

TORONTO — Two more people arrested in the G20 protests have been granted bail in Toronto today. 

Jaggi Singh turned himself in to police on July 6, after an arrest warrant was issued for him following the demonstrations. 

He was granted release with $85,000 bail and must adhere to several conditions, including house arrest. 

Amir Khadir, a provincial politician with the Quebec Solidaire party, is one of Singh's three sureties. 

Patrick Cadorette was granted $47,000 bail and will be subject to similar conditions as Singh. 

About 20 people have been identified as part of a police investigation into activities of people planning violent G20 action.


----------



## PMedMoe

> But he remains under house arrest and has agreed not to participate in demonstrations while on bail -- conditions he calls *"humiliating."*



 :crybaby:

 :


----------



## Kat Stevens

Who gets to be in charge in an anarchist group?


----------



## 57Chevy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Who gets to be in charge in an anarchist group?



I think it's some kind of warped "co-op" of sorts ;D


----------



## Fusaki

mariomike said:
			
		

> I would prefer to see that money go to keeping the arenas and pools open for the kids living in this city. To the children's breakfast clubs. The women's shelters, etc.
> 
> When you think of how much good work that money already spent in Toronto could have done:
> http://www.breakfastclubs.ca/clubs.php



Protecting the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more important than women's shelters, breakfast clubs, and most other things the government could be spending money on.



			
				Container said:
			
		

> We live in a country that stays criminal charges if the police use to much force. As it should...
> 
> ...Many people, even cops, want our way of life to continue. I love my freedoms. When I see assholes abuse those freedoms It bothers me intensely.



We have some common ground, then.

I don't see what else in your post is relevant to the discussion though.  If there are widespread allegations of police misconduct, why should they not be investigated?



			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> WTF would EVER suggest that Canada is anything that barely resembles a police state?!? Because the police in Toronto had to apply sections of the Ways & Means Act to make sure the city got through relatively unscathed?



Yes, actually.

Since when are the police allowed to ignore the law because they feel the ends justify the means?


----------



## 57Chevy

Well maybe when you are being provoked to act in a certain way, or outright attacked, while any
one of his anarchists friends are filming the whole little episode. Finding out later that you have been elected a yourtube star for "police brutality". ;D

But really....We charge someone for breaking the laws pertaining to "The Charter" and then they
turn around and use "The Charter" to protect themselves from prosecution.
First........THEY BROKE THE LAW!!!
So they should be tried for breaking the law, convicted, heavily fined, and sent to jail, etc..etc.
The police who allegedly so happen to seem to have gotten a little frustrated over some of the
endless vicious attacks of a screaming mob.........I'd say.......a slap on the wrist should be fine.
And why?.......simple.......they will learn from it. But those anarchists just can't wait to do the
same thing again and again 
time


----------



## observor 69

I agree that the police dealt with a difficult/challenging situation with an element of unknown factor on what they would encounter.
At the same time I see nothing wrong with investigating the many comments of people who were on the way to or from work or were in the area observing but got swept up by the strong police force at work.


----------



## Container

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Protecting the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more important than women's shelters, breakfast clubs, and most other things the government could be spending money on.
> 
> We have some common ground, then.
> 
> I don't see what else in your post is relevant to the discussion though.  If there are widespread allegations of police misconduct, why should they not be investigated?
> 
> Yes, actually.
> 
> Since when are the police allowed to ignore the law because they feel the ends justify the means?



Wonderbread,

While I have enjoyed your posts so far on this thread and you've given me pause once or twice I am starting to feel like you are ignoring my points.

I have already stated that it is fine to question the police actions during the protests. You as a free citizen should be able to find out everything your heart desires. Thats something every Canadian has the right to expect. However, just because you disagree with the answers you recieve does not mean that the police infringed on anyones "charter" rights. You must be prepared to get answers you dont like from the police AND the courts. 

I've explained that the police do not need to see you break a law to arrest you. They need only have reasonable belief that you are about to break the law.  If their reasonableness is determined to be unreasonable at a later time you can expect a big cash reward. That is how the system works. 

If you do not like the system you are free to vote in politicians who will assist you in overhauling police powers. That being said- you must be prepared for the results. 

The lack of clarification on the "new sweeping arrest powers" I have admitted was poor PR and police action in general.

Inquiries have no legal binding anything. All they can do is make "recommendations" to avoid future similar problems. They cost MILLIONS of dollars and in the end get some very political words and then everyone is free to go about business as usual. There is no real power in an inquiry beyond feeling good. 

The formal police complaint system, including the SIU in Ont, does however have power to go after individual officers who did something untoward. So if somebody was the victim of a police "infringement" they do have recourse. Of course the individuals who call for inquiries because they were victims have mostly avoided the actual police complaint system. Mostly because they are vets of public system and know where the easy juice is- media and shouting over actually using the mechanisms in place. 

Of course there are LEGITIMATE complaints, I am positive, and those officers who did the wrong actions should be held to account. 

The "rest of my post" was relevent because you have introduced the idea that we are in danger of a police state. I provided several examples of what would be acceptable conduct in a police state that is NOT acceptable conduct in our society. 

I do not believe that the police can just roll up their sleeves and "do what needs to get done" and have the law be damned. But unforunately for the people who found themselves in the middle of it in Toronto- disturbing the peace is an offence, so is mischief, the police can arrest you before you commit a crime, and if they have good intel they can detain you for the purposes of investigation. Such as bringing your backpack to a protest (if there is intel that someone has concealed a weapon to bring to protest- and matches your description) or using unauthorized "alternative press" passes.

Over and above this-once arrested I have 24 hours to figure out what to do with you, and/or bring you before a Justice, and if I cant get it done within that time because of the sheer volume of prisoners I can take even longer.

These are not new rules. They are OLD rules.  

So feel free to ask questions of police conduct. But don't be surprised when you dont like the answers. Like it or lump it civilians are not experts in use of force or police tactics. You can not like something and Ill explain why it is that way. You can suggest alternatives and if they are good I would use them but if they aren't you expect them to be used. In just the same way that politicians sticky fingers in the day to day application of military operations is doomed- so is the civilian suggestion of water/sandwiches/ and hugs for police tactics.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you pointed out that you knew police before you really began to describe your distaste for their tactics in the same way that someone points out how many friends of a certain race they have before they say something off color. 

But I admit that it could just be the internet. I'd rather be having this talk over a couple of hours in pub than over weeks on the internet. 

Respectfully submitted.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

And let us not forget, the Charter is _not_ the be-all/end-all.  There are more than enough cases where it was decided that the Charter could be violated if it was in the best interests of greater society.  So did some people get approached unnecessarily?  Probably.  Does it ACTUALLY matter? No.  Did they survive to tell their horrid tale of derring-do or are they still in a Brampton torture camp? Jaysus man, get over it!  
I would also be interested in how many people went deliberately into the hot zones looking like they are there to cause problems for the sole reason of being stopped by an officer and get "harassed"  : There are a great many idiots with too much time on their hands.  

So how many people got stopped on their way to work today and sorted out unfairly in your mind?  Let it go.  Everyone who matters has.


----------



## bdave

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> And let us not forget, the Charter is _not_ the be-all/end-all.  There are more than enough cases where it was decided that the Charter could be violated if it was in the best interests of greater society.



This makes no sense.
The charter is based on unalienable universal human rights. 
By violating the charter, you:

1 - Show the charter is actually useless, since apparently any legal body in power can violate it at its discretion.
2 - Open up the possibility of abuse.

Best interests of greater society is a very vague term and is subject to a wide range of opinions.
The charter of rights doesn't work on opinions. It works on objective statements that ensure equality.
They are meant to be absolute.


----------



## 57Chevy

Yeah......I find it all little off.
The Charter is designed to protect everyones' rights from being abused but can also
be applied to protect the guilty partys' rights after he abuses the rights of another.
I suppose looking at the right to free speech doesn't mean free screeming and yelling at the top
of ones' lungs.
And the right to protest.....I'm sure......doesn't mean the right to provocation, burning, and otherwise
destroying public and private property.
If a person is found guilty of a violation to The Charter, then he should not be able to use the same
in his defence. Similar to a "don't tread on me" clause, where violators of the Charter would
automatically find themselves. (charged for treading on the charter)
Then it would be absolute.


----------



## bdave

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Yeah......I find it all little off.
> The Charter is designed to protect everyones' rights from being abused but can also
> be applied to protect the guilty partys' rights after he abuses the rights of another.
> I suppose looking at the right to free speech doesn't mean free screeming and yelling at the top
> of ones' lungs.
> And the right to protest.....I'm sure......doesn't mean the right to provocation, burning, and otherwise
> destroying public and private property.
> If a person is found guilty of a violation to The Charter, then he should not be able to use the same
> in his defence. Similar to a "don't tread on me" clause, where violators of the Charter would
> automatically find themselves. (charged for treading on the charter)
> Then it would be absolute.


As the saying going "The freedom of swinging your fist stops at my face".
Destroying property that isn't yours is illegal, but it doesn't mean you should not be given a fair trial.
The modern world is founded on Human Rights. If someone breaks the law or violates someone else's rights, it doesn't mean we should just throw the rule book out. We don't do the "eye for an eye" thing anymore; for good reason.


----------



## Container

an example of limit to freedom is going to prison. This is an charter allowed infringement on someones liberty.

The individual rights in the Charter are not absolute and can be curbed for the good of society. Such as prison- or the idea of entering into sexual relationships with children. Even consenting ones.


----------



## OldSolduer

There have been a number of court cases where the judges have basically said:

"Yes your rights were violated......BUT....too bad...."

Can't give particulars but I'm sure there are a few police officers who can.


----------



## mariomike

Canwest Global National:
July 10, 2010:
G20 story. Check out the 01:55 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf42klzzYyA

"Vancouver Sun" and "The Province" ( another B.C. paper ) newspaper boxes getting tipped onto the street. 
That must be from the Olympics on 13 Feb, 2010.

Looks like they are a little embarrassed:
Global removed their 10 July National newscast from their archives:
http://www.globalnational.com/video/index.html?releasePID=BrxUEHlXf8xQkLQIS5eqyMoj4ClbHdfT

Reminds me of the time many years ago when I saw a reporter pull a mangled tricycle out of the trunk of his car, toss it in front of a car involved in a Child Struck P.I., and take a photo. But, the child struck was a pedestrian! 
I just know what I read in the papers. hahaha


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the National Post:


> If some protesters of last month's G20 Summit thought they had got away scot-free, they may want to think again.
> 
> On Wednesday afternoon, Toronto Police will release a Top 10 "Most Wanted" list in the hopes of tracking down and charging some of the ne'er-do-wells who took over the streets, burning police cars and breaking store windows.
> 
> "Those responsible for the assault of police officers, the burning of our marked police vehicles and damage done to downtown buildings . . . will be held accountable for their criminal conduct," Det.-Sgt. Gary Giroux said in a statement ...


Nothing on the Toronto Police Svc site.... yet.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Nothing on the Toronto Police Svc site.... yet.



http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/media/text/20100714-g20_top_ten.pdf


----------



## 57Chevy

Hoping they get full recognition ;D

Photos of G20 suspects being run through banks' facial recognition software
 Face Recognition 
TORONTO — Toronto police are sending photos of violent demonstrators during the G20 protests to the Canadian Bankers Association (CBA), which has facial recognition software to help identify the perpetrators.

The images will be compared to those already in police databases to help identify suspects, Det.-Sgt. Gary Giroux, head of the G20 investigative team, told a news conference Wednesday.

Police released images of 10 men wanted in connection with crimes of arson and mischief over $5,000 in addition to another six images of suspects that they released last week.

The public helped identify, within 12 hours, three of the six suspects whose likeness was released last week, the police said.

Police now hope the banking industry software will help them sort through 14,000 photographs they have already collected from the public. Giroux expects to receive another 2,000 images and with only 15 investigators on his team, a little help from the banks is in order.

"We're just running it through our software and giving it back to police," said Maura Drew-Lytle, a spokeswoman for the CBA. She assured everyone handling the photos would adhere to privacy laws.

"The same technology is used with fingerprint recognition," said David Clausi, a professor of system design engineering at the University of Waterloo with expertise in computer vision, image processing, and pattern recognition.

He explained facial recognition works by first determining what features — such as distance between eyes — are being compared and how. Then the program uses an algorithm to decide which image in the database, based on this mathematical function, most closely resembles the unknown image.

"Basically, you're capturing some essential aspects of that image that can uniquely identify that person," Clausi explained. He added that, if the images are similar enough — lighting, angle, size and aspect ratio can all distort the comparison — the software can be quite effective.

If they aren't — if an image is blurry, too small or distorted by shadows — the accuracy is greatly reduced.

Clausi discounted pop culture notions of computer vision as precise as the human eye is years away. He said the images need to be comparable in order for the software to work well. This means that police will need to make sure the images are straight-on if being compared to mug shots, for example. Even beards, glasses or face-paint can decrease the software's effectiveness, let alone the bandanas many black bloc protesters were sporting.

Still, facial recognition software can be used to narrow a search. Even if only a person's eyes are visible, the software can significantly narrow the possibilities by listing, perhaps, 500 possible matches out of a database of 100,000. A policeman then has to go through 500 photographs instead of 100,000.

The police arrested their first suspect since the investigation was launched. Ashran Ravindhraj, 25, of Toronto, surrendered at Toronto Police 52 Division Wednesday morning. He has been charged with arson and mischief over $5,000


           (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## zipperhead_cop

bdave said:
			
		

> 1 - Show the charter is actually useless, since apparently any legal body in power can violate it at its discretion.



Winner, winner, chicken dinner.  And it isn't any legal body, it is the Provincial government.  Perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with the Notwithstanding clause.  


			
				bdave said:
			
		

> Best interests of greater society is a very vague term and is subject to a wide range of opinions.
> The charter of rights doesn't work on opinions. It works on objective statements that ensure equality.
> They are meant to be absolute.



I don't know if you actually tripled back on your own thought there.  
In any case, the two of the better known cases are vehicle stops and Quebec.  Stopping a motorist and demanding proof of ID would per se be deemed a violation of ones Charter rights as defined.  The Supreme Court of Canada decided that the violation was worth it in order to stem drunk/suspended drivers.  
The other is Quebec's language laws, which CLEARLY blow away the spirit of the Charter.  Too bad, so sad.  Quebec elects its provincial government and they get to make their own rules.  

The Charter is a failed social experiment foisted on Canada by Trudeau and his ilk.  It did not take into account a citizens responsibility to society to act credible and put the good of the country over the individual.  So now we have this self absorbed Gong Show that seems to be equal parts apathy and disdain for anyone who speaks up to try to do anything.  

To try to say that some people who got ID'ed/searched during a time of crisis is a horrific effrontery to the spirit of the Charter and the precursor to a jack booted police state is beyond idiotic.  As mentioned: People! Get over it!!


----------



## bdave

Point(s) taken.


----------



## 57Chevy

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> The Charter is a failed social experiment foisted on Canada by Trudeau and his ilk.  It did not take into account a citizens responsibility to society to act credible and put the good of the country over the individual.  So now we have this self absorbed Gong Show that seems to be equal parts apathy and disdain for anyone who speaks up to try to do anything.



I would not go as far as giving it a failure. I'm thinking the Charter puts everybody in the same boat context with respect to rights. Meaning that from "go", every citizen is responsibe, and otherwise credible. Therefore everybody has already been given the benifit of the doubt. A cornerstone of sorts,
where most law abiding citizens would easily find themselves.
Anyone falling short of that, is in violation of the Charter.


----------



## the 48th regulator

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> The Charter is a failed social experiment foisted on Canada by Trudeau and his ilk.  It did not take into account a citizens responsibility to society to act credible and put the good of the country over the individual.  So now we have this self absorbed Gong Show that seems to be equal parts apathy and disdain for anyone who speaks up to try to do anything.



Yes,

And Trudeau boiled right wing babies, and shared them at Liberal picnics.  

You ask about One's responsibility of country over individual?  Your whole statement is a cunundrum.  Trudeau, acting as Prime Minister, brought the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to Canadians, yet _you_ as an _individual_ rile against it.   He did it for us, as Canadians, and I see no wrong in the Charter of Rights.

The canadian charter of rights and freedoms are fundamental rules, that all individuals should enjoy, everywhere on this planet.  Tell me what you consider as a failure, from the charter.

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike

Something called "The Miami Model":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_model

The article includes Toronto G20:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_model#See_also

In 2003, at the Free Trade Area of the Americas summit, more than 270 people were arrested. None convicted. 
Last year, the City of Miami finally settled out of court with Amnesty International. 
By then, the story had long since faded from the headlines. 

Amnesty International has taken an interest in Toronto G20 ( 3 pages worth ):
http://www.amnesty.ca/files/Letter%20to%20Govt%20calling%20for%20Summit%20Security%20Review%2030%20June%202010.pdf
This also could take years, in and out of court, to settle.


----------



## Jarnhamar

57Chevy said:
			
		

> The police arrested their first suspect since the investigation was launched. Ashran Ravindhraj, 25, of Toronto, surrendered at Toronto Police 52 Division Wednesday morning. He has been charged with arson and mischief over $5,000



lol, up yours Ashran Ravindhraj.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Yes,
> 
> And Trudeau boiled right wing babies, and shared them at Liberal picnics.
> 
> You ask about One's responsibility of country over individual?  Your whole statement is a cunundrum.  Trudeau, acting as Prime Minister, brought the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to Canadians, yet _you_ as an _individual_ rile against it.   He did it for us, as Canadians, and I see no wrong in the Charter of Rights.
> 
> The canadian charter of rights and freedoms are fundamental rules, that all individuals should enjoy, everywhere on this planet.  Tell me what you consider as a failure, from the charter.
> dileas
> 
> tess



You have no right to protection of private property (property rights) and you have no right to compensation for confiscation. The government can take everything you own and there is nothing you can do about it.

As well, Section Eight provides everyone in Canada with protection against unreasonable search and seizure..................... unless you legally own a firearm. Then you are open to *warrantless* searches and confiscation on a whim. 

There's just a couple of infringments (failures) on fundamental personal rights.


----------



## Container

The Charter often receives criticism from Police officers. 

The issue being-we are no more free than we were prior to the Charter. However, the people that invoke the charter in a legal setting use it in an attempt to "loop-hole" their way out of responsibility. I as a free citizen of Canada have never used my "rights" in a fashion that I would not have been able to prior to 1982. 

Neither have my friends and family. Nor the people I work with unless they did something against the rest of us. 

Furthermore- the "rights" extend to everyone who find themselves in Canada. So the recent "refugee" with multiple violent offences can't be kicked out because he may be abused in his home country. So he abuses Canadians. Both born and naturalized.

The rights are beautiful- and your right. Everyone who is a law abiding citizen of Canada, like the people here, and 99% of Canada deserve everyone of them and not to be trampled on by the government.

As an aside- I dont want to hear that "innocent until proven guilty" stuff. Thats true for the purposes of court- court has to operate that way. I have observed crime. People doing terrible things to people who have been found not guilty due to some bizarre extinuating circumstance. They are most assuredly guilty of what they were accused of.

Even a judge will say in decisions that "unfortunately" they know "something" happened but can't quite make the determination of guilt. This has usually been in the case of a victim who cant bring themselves to testify- a child or otherwise.  

In an emotional example- a 7 year old child with an STD who can't testify against her uncle. He's "not guilty"? For court maybe but in the life of his victim he is guilty. 

Or the individual charged with 30 or so offences on 5 or 6 files will be granted BAIL AGAIN because the Charter requires it. So sometimes it becomes easy to blame alot of justice system woes on it. Interrogations are often the subject of charter issues and without them there would be alot less convictions. Or less "guilty" people statistically. 

People point out that in Britain the police officers are not allowed to do interrogations. But in Britain the police are allowed to offer inducements to get people to plead guilty and provide a statement. In Canada the supreme court, using the Charter, has said that the police shall NOT use inducements. So using the charter we have the very real possibility of being the first country that forbids interrogations and offering inducements. Now it may not come to this but Charter interpretation is a living breathing thing. The interpretation of it is more the problem I suppose.

It is always shifting further to protect the people from the evil government and playing into the hands of evil people who do not have any rules governing their conduct. 

Canadians are on one hand demanding protection (the average Canadian) from evil doers (justice) and on the othert hand refuse to trust the people they have empowered to do it.  It cannot be both ways- but the Charter in a way suggests that it can.

Thats what Zipperhead is getting at I think- it fails to outline any social responsibilty.

But we're cops so our view of the entire thing is a little biased. We observe an endless parade of victimizers that wear the charter like the rest of us wear the Canadian flag. 

I think the Charter is nice. I think that an endless parade of extremely detached, leftist social experimenting supreme court judges is more the problem. The interpretation is the issue. 

As for property rights- what specifically are you looking for Recce? What warrantless search and confiscation are you talking about? I'm not familiar with a circumstance where we enter peoples homes without warrants just to seize firearms?? It may well be- I'm just not able to supply a situation for consideration.

Any time the police (the state) seize something- they are required to apply to a Judge for a disposition of the items. Im not sure what happens if the prime minister goes into your house but police are bound to report and judge makes a determination as to what happens. 

As for your property- the concept of Color of Right is what covers that. Its yours- and Section 38/39 of the Criminal Code allows you to use as much necessary to keep possession of it. What types of items are people taking?


----------



## OldSolduer

mariomike said:
			
		

> Amnesty International has taken an interest in Toronto G20 ( 3 pages worth ):
> http://www.amnesty.ca/files/Letter%20to%20Govt%20calling%20for%20Summit%20Security%20Review%2030%20June%202010.pdf
> This also could take years, in and out of court, to settle.



When they start critquing China like they do us, they will be relevant. Until then......


----------



## mariomike

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> When they start critquing China like they do us, they will be relevant. Until then......



They critiqued China too....: 
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china

Jim, what is relevant to me is closer to home. 
ie: "the threats of lawsuits against the City of Toronto":
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/article/836033--hepburn-why-is-harper-escaping-g20-aftermath-scot-free

What drives our property taxes up. What takes money away from city services.
The City Solicitor employs about 100 lawyers, just for the regular business and lawsuits. ( T-EMS was a favorite: "Never, _NEVER_ admit the department has done anything wrong!"   ) Plus paralegal, secretarial and administrative staff. 
G20 lawsuits could become very challenging for them, time consuming, and take years to settle. 

This took a decade to settle:
Two weeks ago:
July 1, 2010:
Washington Post:
"D.C. agrees to $13.7 million settlement in 2000 mass arrest: A federal judge gave final approval Wednesday to a $13.7 million settlement between the District and people who were picked up in a mass arrest during a 2000 protest near the World Bank and International Monetary Fund buildings.":
http://current.com/1fpj84c

"Under the settlement, each person arrested and found eligible for compensation will be awarded $18,000,"

Another:
"Last year, the city agreed to pay $8.25 million to almost 400 protesters and bystanders to end a class-action lawsuit over mass arrests in Pershing Park during 2002 World Bank protests, according to the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund, which also represents those plaintiffs. That case is awaiting final approval." 

"He said it sparked a 2004 D.C. law that set out policies for police to follow at demonstrations, _including a prohibition against encircling protesters without probable cause to arrest them." _

Canadian Civil Liberties Association:
July 15th, 2010
Press Release:
"CCLA Files Five G20 Policing Complaints with OIPRD":
http://ccla.org/2010/07/15/ccla-files-five-g20-policing-complaints-with-oiprd/

Jul 13 2010
"The G20: Doing Security the Wrong Way":
http://www.themarknews.com/authors/1071-paul-cavalluzzo
http://www.themarknews.com/articles/1849-the-g20-doing-security-the-wrong-way

15 July, 2010:
Sun:
"Tiny bubbles cause international stir: 'Officer Bubbles' video goes viral around the world":
 http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/07/15/14726401.html

FOX:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FKG1U5_BI

( Big surprise )
July 15, 2010 
"Federal G20 inquiry not needed yet: Tory MP":
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/07/15/g20-federal-inquiry546.html

"Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has ruled out a provincial inquiry, saying it was up to the federal government to call one.
But Dean Del Mastro, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, said policing in Ontario falls under provincial jurisdiction."

Restaurants: "Our focus now is on ensuring that our members are fairly compensated for their business losses.": 
http://www.torontonews24.com/latest-toronto-news/801-g20-losses-extend-beyond-downtown-core-for-toronto-restaurants

Sun:
Warmington: "Sources tell me security cost of the disastrous G-20 summit will reach at least $2-billion.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/07/08/14651761.html


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> You have no right to protection of private property (property rights) and you have no right to compensation for confiscation. The government can take everything you own and there is nothing you can do about it.
> 
> As well, Section Eight provides everyone in Canada with protection against unreasonable search and seizure..................... unless you legally own a firearm. Then you are open to *warrantless* searches and confiscation on a whim.
> 
> There's just a couple of infringments (failures) on fundamental personal rights.




Uhuh......

Your statement is moot, as you display the part o the charter that protects your rights to protection of private property (property rights).  As to the compensation, apply the charter and you are warranted to compensation.

Recceguy,  answer me this.  According to your statement; is the Charter  a failed social experiment foisted on Canada,  a charter that can have additions made, or a charter that is good as is?

I take offense to this statement;




			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> The Charter is a failed social experiment foisted on Canada by Trudeau and his ilk.  It did not take into account a citizens responsibility to society to act credible and put the good of the country over the individual.  So now we have this self absorbed Gong Show that seems to be equal parts apathy and disdain for anyone who speaks up to try to do anything.




zipperhead_cop criticizes the Government for introducing a charter, that is foisted onto the people.  Then when the people use the charter, he sides with establishment, in stating that the individual does not bide with the Government.

zipperhead_cop, 

I ask again, what is it that you are stating?  You are confusing me.

I am tired of the constant vilification o Trudeau, by people who hoist the Canadian flag.  He stood for what Canada is to be.  To this day, Canada is remembered everywhere for PET.

It is all plain fuddleduddle by a bunch o bleeding hearts!

dileas

tess


----------



## 57Chevy

looks to be exactly like I had mentioned earlier
Officer Bubbles: "Police Brutality" yourtube superstar, the world over.
Power to officer bubbles.........He actually took the time to warn little miss bubble maker.
How brutal.
And this is exactly what I mean......Watch me provoke you while I exercise my rights.
Watch me turn you into a brute on yourtube for all to see. And just watch how much 
support I will get from all the "MY RIGHTS !!!" activists.
And YOU......mr. policeman.......what rights do YOU have?

She is one flippin lucky little bubble maker........I would not have given ANY warning.
NO ONE touches MY uniform in ANY way.......especially little bubble blowing b&%$#$s.
(well that is to say....when I was in uniform) ;D

Oh......forgot to mention.....I like the PET also.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Uhuh......
> 
> Your statement is moot, as you display the part o the charter that protects your rights to protection of private property (property rights).  As to the compensation, apply the charter and you are warranted to compensation.



No it doesn't. There are no property rights enshrined in the Charter. It was actually a deal breaker for the Provinces to get their vote. However, take it as you will. You asked for an example, I gave it. Don't shoot the messenger or try drag me into your crusade.


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> No it doesn't. There are no property rights enshrined in the Charter. It was actually a deal breaker for the Provinces to get their vote. However, take it as you will. You asked for an example, I gave it. Don't shoot the messenger or try drag me into your crusade.



My Crusade....

Recceguy,  as noble as it is to support your friend, don't guide this towards a lock.

You stated one situation which was excluded, then you gave the section (Section Eight) which explains the right to protection of private property (property rights).  Compensation can be achieved by use of Section Eight.

Your example, I say again, is moot.  I you want to enter the debate, fair enough, however based on what I asked you before; is the Charter  a failed social experiment foisted on Canada,  a charter that can have additions made, or a charter that is good as is?

Returning with  back handed comment about "My Crusade" dds absolutely nothing.  You were the one that decided to jump in with your statement of property seizure, firearms and what not, then proceed to give us the charter that protects you, and offers avenue of compensation.

Let's focus on a good debate, and not get into razor edged comments.

dileas

tess


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Container said:
			
		

> Thats what Zipperhead is getting at I think- it fails to outline any social responsibilty.



You are bang on, brother.  Your articulation is flawless.  I'd love to read one of your assault PC/Resist Arrest reports  



			
				Container said:
			
		

> I think the Charter is nice. I think that an endless parade of extremely detached, leftist social experimenting supreme court judges is more the problem. The interpretation is the issue.



Very much agree with that too.  I think everyone deserves the right to be treated equally and without bias.  However, the way the courts interpret the Charter, criminals enjoy far more consideration and protection than people who matter.  You'd almost think they were some sort of over-class, who don't have to be responsible for anything.  



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I take offense to this statement;



How very Liberal of you  : I hope you don't write a letter.  
Funny how you deftly ignored everything that Container said.  



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> zipperhead_cop criticizes the Government for introducing a charter, that is foisted onto the people.  Then when the people use the charter, he sides with establishment, in stating that the individual does not bide with the Government.



Okay, Trudeau was NOT MY government and never was.  People have short memories.  How that assclown is loved now that he is dead.  I guess the whole "Trudeau Salute" is part of the past?  
And pedantic wordsmithing doesn't become you.  Where have I suggested that anyone "bide with the Government"?  Holy hell, I hope that doesn't happen.  But being responsible to SOCIETY goes beyond the government.  It is a moral fibre that makes life worth living here.  The Charter allows people to tell greater society to go frig itself and they can do whatever they want with no real genuine fear of repercussions.  



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I ask again, what is it that you are stating?  You are confusing me.



I guess I'm saying that bananas are a great source of potassium.  



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I am tired of the constant vilification o Trudeau, by people who hoist the Canadian flag.  He stood for what Canada is to be.  To this day, Canada is remembered everywhere for PET.



Feh.  Uganda is remembered everywhere for Idi Amin.  Doesn't make him a good leader.  

Simple question:  Was Canada a better place before all of his left leaning policies entrenched the liberal bureaucracy of our government or if we could have a do-over, knowing what we know now, would going a more traditional path have gotten us to a better today?  (potential thread split fodder)


----------



## vonGarvin

Isn't that Idi Amin Dada, VC?  ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Isn't that Idi Amin Dada, VC?  ;D



My bad  :-[


----------



## Container

Oh Zipperhead-

My reports are the same as every cops. Every time things go slightly sideways the amount of notebook paper used increases exponentially. You can almost guess what level of force was required by the sheer volume of notebook consumed by the higher levels.

I guess for me 48th- the Charter is a nice document that could use some additions. Its here now- to get rid of it would look a little strange.

For myself the Charter is all about probabilities. I believe that I have a higher likelihood of being victimized by some.....undesirable rather than the Canadian government. (bizarre firearms laws aside- for the moment thats a strange minefield indeed) So I'd rather have an empowered legal system to deal with it. Of course thats a very cop like view.

Having worked in the federal government long enough now that I have realized the lack of direction in the public service keeps me safe from even the most zealous federal employees and I've turned my attention elsewhere. Inefficient Canadian bureaucracy keeps me safer than the Charter. I think that the promise not to interfere with my life too much is nice- but there are some people that need some interference.

Another example of just plain good application of the charter-

A school contacted the police because of a drug problem. Drug dogs walk through the school and sniff out a backpack that has drugs in it. Now, feelings on drug dogs in schools aside, the supreme court of Canada said that a dog smelling the air, finding trace particles of a controlled substance and following the cone to the backpack amounted to searching inside the backpack.

They insist that the use of a dog amounts to an officer physically looking into the backpack.

I hope everyone here realizes how foolish it is to associate that when a backpack emanates an odor it does so by a shedding particles that our or the dogs olfactory senses register. We are sensing an actual "something" that has been shed. The dog follows the scent cone to the backpack. In essence the owner of the backpack has left things behind that we can physically detect.

As an extreme hypothetical- say the backpack had a head in it. There was blood down the hallway where the individual had walked leading to the backpack. Had that blood come from inside the backpack, where it was placed with an expectation of privacy, do those blood trails also have an expectation of privacy since I am now looking at the contents of the backpack?

If a canine officer is on his way to a call and while walking by someone the dog "hits" and indicates that there is drugs on an individual, who just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, that in spirit of this decision amounts to the officer as having searched that man.

Now remove the dog. I've got a backpack full of dope and a cop wanders by me. The cop can smell the overpowering stench of stupidity and marihuana. By the same process as "using a dog" I've now been searched contrary to the Charter (according to this decision). Of course the supreme court hasn't said so yet but it is a foolish road to have started to go down that suggests that the small amounts of things you leave behind, if you expected it to be private, has an expectation of remaining so even when you’ve left them hanging in the open. 

I can search someone garbage- good to go. They've thrown it away. I can seize "cast-off DNA samples"- check. But the chemicals emanating from their property (which are left behind in public spaces) have an expectation of privacy? 

That is the Charter (or the interpretation thereof) at work. An operational reality in the hands of opining justices becomes this bizarre and utterly unscientific mosh of however they felt that day.

I have respect for the supreme court- they make many good calls, and there is always a dissenting opinion that is usually close to how I feel. But it seems that the ambiguous nature, and ever evolving interpretation, of the charter makes for some bizarre calls every once and a while.

As for police dogs in schools. Im not sure how I feel about it. Its not a pleasant image for school relations- but at the same time drug dealers in schools are complete scum. Its more about implementation than the search itself I have issues with I suppose.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> My Crusade....
> 
> Recceguy,  as noble as it is to support your friend, don't guide this towards a lock.
> 
> You stated one situation which was excluded, then you gave the section (Section Eight) which explains the right to protection of private property (property rights).  Compensation can be achieved by use of Section Eight.
> 
> Your example, I say again, is moot.  I you want to enter the debate, fair enough, however based on what I asked you before; is the Charter  a failed social experiment foisted on Canada,  a charter that can have additions made, or a charter that is good as is?
> 
> Returning with  back handed comment about "My Crusade" dds absolutely nothing.  You were the one that decided to jump in with your statement of property seizure, firearms and what not, then proceed to give us the charter that protects you, and offers avenue of compensation.
> 
> Let's focus on a good debate, and not get into razor edged comments.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Sorry Tess. It's useless trying to debate this with you. Our minds are made up. To each his own I guess.


----------



## 57Chevy

2 more G20 arrests made in Toronto

TORONTO — Toronto police have arrested two more people on their "Most Wanted" list in connection with the massive G20 protests that wreaked havoc on parts of the city in June.

Two Toronto men — Cody Caplette, 21, and Philip Lee, 28 — were arrested Thursday.

Both men are accused of damaging a police vehicle during the melee on June 26, resulting in a charge of mischief over $5,000, while Lee is also suspected of stealing police equipment and assaulting another individual at the site.

Lee faces numerous theft charges and is accused of possession of property obtained by criminal activity, including one charge of possession over $5,000. He also is charged with threatening damage and assault.

Read more: Link 
                 (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Toronto Police Service releases

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/19290.pdf

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/19288.pdf

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/19273.pdf

and YouTube video of suspects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5sk6baBIjw


----------



## mariomike

16 July, 2010.
Globe and Mail: Editorial:
"Review G8/G20 spending and site selection":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/review-g8g20-spending-and-site-selection/article1641666/

The G20 prior to Toronto was held in Pittsburgh last September. 110 people were arrested:
May 19, 2010:
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:
"ACLU plans to sue city over arrests during G-20 summit: 
The American Civil Liberties Union announced Tuesday that it is preparing a suit against the city on behalf of some of those arrested during the "Oakland sweeps," ( an area in Pittsburgh-mm ) the night following the close of the G-20 summit in which riot police descended on hundreds of students, protesters and passers-by who had assembled in Schenley Plaza.":
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10139/1059137-84.stm

17 July, 2010:
Globe and Mail:
"G20 protest starts with a ‘bubble-in’: Internet video, ‘Officer Bubbles’, inspires demonstrators":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/g20-protest-starts-with-a-bubble-in/article1643632/


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Police arrested five more people suspected of G20 vandalism today, bringing the total number of post-G20 arrests to 10.
> 
> The suspected vandals are mostly Toronto men in their teens and twenties. One suspect’s name cannot be released under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and another is listed as having no fixed address.
> 
> On Monday, police picked up Michael Corbett, 29, Bryan O’Handley, 19, Jeffrey Delaney, 23, Robert Kainola, 24, and the young offender.
> 
> On Sunday, police charged two others: 22-year-old Roarco and 23-year-old Andrew Loughrin.
> 
> All seven are being charged with mischief. Mr. Roarco is also charged with breaking probation and arson in connection with torching a police cruiser, and Mr. Delaney received an additional charge for attempted theft ....



http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/07/19/g20-police-make-more-arrests-related-to-protests/


----------



## George Wallace

I haven't noticed any women on these lists yet, and looking at the Black Bloc vandalism, close to 50% of those black clad people were obviously women.


----------



## 57Chevy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I haven't noticed any women on these lists yet, and looking at the Black Bloc vandalism, close to 50% of those black clad people were obviously women.



Yeah........They shouldn't have too much trouble tracking down that fat one trying to hide
               herself clad in black  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Solidarity (not so) forever, according to one activist writer:


> I reported yesterday on the Civil Liberties rally in Toronto, attended by 300 (a generous estimate at Queen's Park).
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it was fun to stick it Officer Bubbles...I would be lying to you, though, if I didn't mention the small numbers at this civil liberties event compared to the rally last Saturday which filled out to a respectable 2,500 people.
> 
> While 300 people is nothing to shake a stick at, I was left wondering: What happened? The July 17, 2010, rally felt like a deflated balloon. For the long haul (since when changing the world, you're have to be in it for the long haul), do only 300 people in Toronto care that we had our civil liberties violated last month? Sure, activists who were charged have conditions that prevent them from attending demonstrations, but where was everyone else? I know this city has activists, I've seen them! ....



Some links to labour organization statements bashing (a bit, anyway) those who damaged property are in the article as well:
http://www.canadianlabour.ca/national/news/statement-ken-georgetti-president-canadian-labour-congress-vandalism-surrounding-toron
http://www.cupe.on.ca/doc.php?document_id=1168&lang=en

as well as this tidbit from another propagandist activist writer bashing the unions for not going on strike or doing more:


> .... In expressing fidelity to the "rule of law" what is really being affirmed is fidelity to the state and to the bosses. Any union that expresses fidelity to the rule of law is not worthy of the name ....



_- edited to add link to first ref -_


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Yeah........They shouldn't have too much trouble tracking down that fat one trying to hide
> herself clad in black  ;D



Just check the bars in Pet......................


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press:


> A man facing explosives and weapons charges as part of a G20 security investigation has been denied bail.
> 
> Byron Sonne was arrested June 22 and accused of possessing dangerous weapons and explosives for an unlawful purpose, among other charges.
> 
> Sonne's wife, Kristen Peterson, was also arrested but later released on bail with the condition she have no contact with her husband and live with her parents.
> 
> The 37-year-old Sonne also stands accused of mischief, attempted mischief and intimidating a justice system participant ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I haven't noticed any women on these lists yet, and looking at the Black Bloc vandalism, close to 50% of those black clad people were obviously women.


Some in attached "Have you seen these thugs?" shots from TPS.


----------



## Rogo

Picture #21 in attached photos by milnews looks like a kid.  A shame if he's ruined his life so early on.


----------



## The Bread Guy

I guess "active" anarchy is a young person's game....


----------



## 57Chevy

Caught up with a female type anarchist here
             _____________________________________________________
'Facilitator' of G20 vandalism identified:

Toronto police say they are looking for a woman that they say caused thousands of dollars worth of damage during an anti-G20 protest on June 26.

At a Wednesday afternoon news conference, police also released 21 more pictures of people suspected of violence and vandalism during the protests.

Det.-Sgt. Gary Giroux of the police's G20 investigative team asked the public for help in identifying those people.

Giroux singled out one woman who he said "was responsible for a tremendous amount of damage in the downtown core."

Police are looking for Kelly Pflug-Back, 21, who is facing six counts of mischief over $5,000. If convicted, Pflug-Back could face "a substantial jail sentence," Giroux said. She is accused of being a "facilitator" who gave directions to other people to cause damage.

Police believe she was involved in an attack on a police cruiser on June 26, as well as attacks on several retail businesses.

Giroux urged Pflug-Back, of Norwood, Ont., to turn herself in.

The new photos come a week after police released what they called a top 10 most wanted list of those suspected of criminal activity during the summit.
article continues
Read more: LINK 
          (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

She still has outstanding charges of assault against her from way back when some jerkoff knocked over the Olympic torchbearer in Guelph before the Games.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Accused 'facilitator' in G20 violence arrested
21/07/2010 8:15:52 PM
CBC News 

LINK

*A woman who Toronto police believe caused thousands of dollars' worth of damage during an anti-G20 protest on June 26 has turned herself in.*

At a Wednesday afternoon news conference, police released 21 more pictures of people suspected of violence and vandalism during the protests.

Det.-Sgt. Gary Giroux of the police service's G20 investigative team asked the public for help in identifying those people.

Giroux singled out one woman who, he alleged, "was responsible for a tremendous amount of damage in the downtown core."

Kelly Pflug-Back, 21, is facing six counts of mischief over $5,000. If convicted, she could face "a substantial jail sentence," Giroux said.

On Wednesday afternoon, Pflug-Black of Norwood, Ont., turned herself in to police in Peterborough.

Accused in attacks

She is accused of being a "facilitator" who gave directions to other people to cause damage.

Police believe she was involved in an attack on a police cruiser on June 26, as well as attacks on several retail businesses.

The new photos come a week after police released what they called a top 10 "most wanted" list of those suspected of criminal activity during the summit.

Since then, police have arrested 10 people in connection with the violence that erupted during the summit, primarily on June 26. They face a total of 21 charges, most of them for mischief over $5,000.

Nearly 1,000 people were detained before and during the G20 as part of the largest peacetime mass arrest in Canadian history.


----------



## mariomike

July 23, 2010 
National Post:
"5th probe of police launched":
http://www.nationalpost.com/probe+police+launched/3311800/story.html


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Rogo said:
			
		

> Picture #21 in attached photos by milnews looks like a kid.  A shame if he's ruined his life so early on.



Ha! Sorry my friend, this is Canada.  If he _murdered_ someone, his life wouldn't be "ruined".  Breaking some stuff?  Absolutely couldn't possibly matter less to the judges.  And if he is one of our precious youth, he'll get to blame his behavior on his parents, ADHD/ADD/ODD/LFNAB, all his friends that "made" him do it, society....et al.  
Trust that he has already seen that picture on-line, printed it off dozens of times and is signing copies for his friends.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Ha! Sorry my friend, this is Canada.  If he _murdered_ someone, his life wouldn't be "ruined".  Breaking some stuff?  Absolutely couldn't possibly matter less to the judges.  And if he is one of our precious youth, he'll get to blame his behavior on his parents, ADHD/ADD/ODD/LFNAB, all his friends that "made" him do it, society....et al.
> Trust that he has already seen that picture on-line, printed it off dozens of times and is signing copies for his friends.



Yup, but unfortunately folks don't/ won't believe that until they end up working in the system and get to see it first-hand.


----------



## Container

Since his picture is out there and is associated with such negative things the judge may feel he has suffered enough already.

One order of community justice no record with a side of loose feel good conditions coming up!


----------



## Thompson_JM

Container said:
			
		

> Since his picture is out there and is associated with such negative things the judge may feel he has suffered enough already.
> 
> One order of community justice no record with a side of loose feel good conditions coming up!



Sounds like a recipie for Heartburn right there.....

Sigh.... what ever happened to people being held accountable....


----------



## Rogo

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Ha! Sorry my friend, this is Canada.  If he _murdered_ someone, his life wouldn't be "ruined".  Breaking some stuff?  Absolutely couldn't possibly matter less to the judges.  And if he is one of our precious youth, he'll get to blame his behavior on his parents, ADHD/ADD/ODD/LFNAB, all his friends that "made" him do it, society....et al.
> Trust that he has already seen that picture on-line, printed it off dozens of times and is signing copies for his friends.



That is true but see it's not the idea that he'll be afraid of jailtime or anything.  If he is charged and it sticks (can be something minor for all I care) he will realize in a year or two that jobs are harder to find and hold.  And when those parents he blamed (for sake of argument) his actions on go to florida for vacation, he will be stuck stateside walking the dog.    

Not a terrible punishment but suddenly a few minutes of stupidity don't look so worth it in the larger picture.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Rogo said:
			
		

> If he is charged and it sticks (can be something minor for all I care) he will realize in a year or two that jobs are harder to find and hold.  And when those parents he blamed (for sake of argument) his actions on go to florida for vacation, he will be stuck stateside walking the dog.



And what in God's sweet blue creation would make you think that this bipedal turd would have ANY ambition to get a job?  Having a "job" is selling out to The Man.  And I bring you back to what country we are talking about.  There is no reason to have a job in Canada.  Work is for suckers.  Just ask any fifth generation welfare recipient.  
Chances are, a lack of parental interest in said clowns life is what got him to where he is.  I'm betting family vacations are not the norm.

It would be kinda awesome to have your rose coloured glasses, if even for an afternoon though.


----------



## Danjanou

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> And what in God's sweet blue creation would make you think that this bipedal turd would have ANY ambition to get a job?  Having a "job" is selling out to The Man.  And I bring you back to what country we are talking about.  There is no reason to have a job in Canada.  Work is for suckers.  Just ask any fifth generation welfare recipient.
> Chances are, a lack of parental interest in said clowns life is what got him to where he is.  I'm betting family vacations are not the norm.
> 
> It would be kinda awesome to have your rose coloured glasses, if even for an afternoon though.



Can I borrow  them after you're finished with them, it's turning into one of THOSE types of days.  :


----------



## REDinstaller

Do those glasses come with a box of rubber bullets?? >


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Do those glasses come with a box of rubber bullets?? >



I think the ones you are talking about are called "vermillion" and yes, they frequently DO come with bullets.  5.56 ball.


----------



## 57Chevy

Police deny G20 protesters out on bail being muzzled  muzzled 
TORONTO — Two G20 protesters out on bail were warned by police this week that they face re-arrest because they were close to violating the conditions of their release, but their friends claim the tactic is an attempt by police to muzzle freedom of speech.

Ontario Provincial Police said Thursday they have been monitoring Leah Henderson, 25, and Alex Hundert, 30, since their release on bail on July 19.

OPP Insp. Dave Ross wouldn't specify which bail conditions may have been violated, as the case is still before the courts. He denied it was related to comments the two had made to the media.

"We became aware of a number of public statements both individuals had been making," said Ross, who works out of OPP headquarters in Orillia, Ont. "We had a consultation with the Crown attorney and deemed that some of the statements may be in violation of their bail conditions. We contacted the individuals and warned them of this," he added.

"Certainly, we recognize freedom of speech and lawful assembly as charter rights. That's not the issue here. The issue is that these two may be in violation of their bail conditions," he said.

"Speaking to the media, speaking in public is not an offence."

As part of their bail conditions, the two agreed not to assist in planning, participating or attending any public demonstrations and not to make any postings on the Internet.

Ross said officers wanted to give the protesters "fair warning" that they may be arrested again.

article continues...

           (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## pbi

> In expressing fidelity to the "rule of law" what is really being affirmed is fidelity to the state and to the bosses. Any union that expresses fidelity to the rule of law is not worthy of the name ....



(Sorry I'm joining in a bit late). 

Now, here's a frightening quote that goes directly to the heart of how so many Lefties seem to view the world.  They don't need the law imposed by "The Man". Of course, a brief review of legal history would quickly point out the various legal decisions  by "The Man's"| courts that have enshrined unions, collective bargaining, the right to strike, etc. When was the last time you saw dogs and firehoses used to break up a UAW strike? And, strangely, I'm sure these same activist types demand that the Govt take legal action to stop this or that evil , or protect this or that pet cause. Suppose, for a moment, that corporations were not "bound by law" in their dealings with unions? What then?

This revealing statement reminds me of an interview I recently heard with one of the G20 activists. When asked by the host if the trashing of small businesses, burning of police vehicles and terrifying of store employees were not actually acts of violence, her reply was that they were not. She then proceeded to reel off a classic Left-wing rant that would have stood up well back in the 'Sixties. 
"Violence" was what the police were doing. "Violence" was what the corporations and the Govt were doing. The actions of the rioters were a just and rightful reaction by the oppressed BLABLABLA (you get  the idea). But they were not violence.

So....If I decide I don't like her point of view, or her activism, and I go and trash her workplace, frighten her and her co-workers, then attack the police when they show up (because, actually, the 911 system doesn't have a Left-wing voice-pattern discriminator built into it...), then all that wouldn't be violence, because I'm just exercising my right to express my point of view.

Have I got that right? Because the next step in this logic train is the justification of terrorism.

Cheers


----------



## REDinstaller

Pretty much true for them. They want to live in a world where their own actions don't deserve justification, yet if their "rights" are infringed on, look out for the Media Sh*t storm to follow. Maybe they should move to Albania or some other country where you just disappear for giving the Govt/ Police forces a hard time. Seems to me that they have life very easy here in Canada.


----------



## pbi

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Maybe they should move to Albania or some other country where you just disappear for giving the Govt/ Police forces a hard time. Seems to me that they have life very easy here in Canada.



Yes, and history shows us quite clearly what a "workers' paradise" these sort create when they actually do get control of a country. Not much toleration of dissenting opinion, and people like themselves swiftly rounded up and disappeared, instead of getting their faces all over the media.

Cheers


----------



## REDinstaller

Then maybe they should be more mindful of what message they are giving the general public that doesn't approve of their actions. I know if I burned a police car I would fully expect to spend time in the can for it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

The problem is that _most_ serious people on the socio-economic and political 'left' are convinced, against all the evidence, that a socialist "workers' paradise" *can* be implemented, *can* be made to work if only intelligent, "right thinking" people, like themselves, are in charge. Most _Bloqistes_ and _Dippers_ are, in fact, decent, honest, well intentioned, albeit terribly naive, people who want what they are *certain* is best for us all. (In that they are fundamentally different from the 'left' wing of the Liberal Party which wants, above all, *power for the Party* and which hopes that some desirable socio-economic 'benefits' will _trickle down_ to the masses.)

At a wild _guesstimate_, about one third of the public service falls into each of the categories of:

1. "serious people on the socio-economic and political 'left';" or

2. members of "the 'left' wing of the Liberal Party."

That means they are, fundamentally, opposed to the policies of the currently elected government. By the way, an equally wild quesstimate tells me that the media is more than half "serious people on the socio-economic and political 'left'." In other words, the media's bias is not pro-Liberal (if it is anything it is pro-NDP), it is, in the main just anti-Conservative because most (many? just some?) journalists really do try to hide their own, individual socio-economic preferences; they would never try to tell you to vote for the NDP but they cannot help _suggesting_ that the Tories (and US Republicans) are _evil_ incarnate.


----------



## Kirkhill

Which is to say that those "serious people on the socio-economic and political 'left';" have all the faith and religious fervour of a Dominican, Jesuit or Presbyterian Domine that, paraphrasing William Blake, they can build a new Jerusalem in this green and pleasant land.

So sayeth Saint Tommy of Falkirk and Regina.


----------



## Edward Campbell

While I may, do, actually, disagree with pretty much every one of Dr. Amir Khadir _principles_ and most of his _positions_, I admire and support his contention that “dissidence must not be criminalized.” I need to be clear: dissidence, _per se_, must not be criminalized but *acts* that may arise from legitimate dissent can be, often are criminal and, as Dr. Khadir suggests, they may have consequences. I support Dr. Khadir’s right to oppose ideas that I find self-evidently correct and to support people I regard as, at best, “useful idiots,” but I neither support nor condone many, indeed most of the acts that the people Dr. Khadir supports undertake to give “voice” to their dissent.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_ is an article about Amir Khadir:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/the-popular-anti-populism-of-a-radical-moderate/article1661098/


> The popular anti-populism of a radical moderate
> *Fringe Quebec MNA Amir Khadir, who once threw a shoe at photo of George W. Bush, insists that dissent must not be criminalized*
> 
> Les Perreaux
> 
> Montreal — From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
> 
> Every few months, it seems, Amir Khadir gets into trouble. At least by the standards applied to conventional politicians.
> 
> In December, 2008 – the very month he won a surprise victory to become the member of the National Assembly for Montreal’s Mercier riding – he threw a shoe at a photograph of George W. Bush to protest war. He’s donated money to a fringe sovereigntist group, and most recently he posted $5,000 in bail in Toronto for activist-provocateur Jaggi Singh, who was jailed at G20 protests.
> 
> Each act has provoked plenty of critics who say he doesn’t take his responsibilities as an elected representative with sufficient gravitas. Yet Mr. Khadir, a member of the fringe Québec solidaire party, is one of Quebec’s most popular politicians and has become a go-to MNA for cogent criticism of Jean Charest’s Liberal government.
> 
> Born in Iran in 1961, Mr. Khadir migrated to Canada with his family 10 years later. The entire family protested the regimes of the Shah and then Ayatollah Khomeini. Mr. Khadir became a fixture in Quebec’s left-wing activist clique while becoming a physician, leading some to call him a champagne socialist. (It’s a label that could apply to much of the gentrified Plateau Mont-Royal neighbourhood of Montreal, where he lives.)
> 
> Staunchly pro-Palestinian and anti-capitalist, Mr. Khadir runs counter to Quebec consensus on a few fronts. He has stood against asbestos mining and the seal hunt, and has called for an end to mining subsidies in the regions – all issues rarely questioned within the province.
> 
> *How does a radical agitator like you end up being the most popular member of the most establishment of Quebec institutions? One pundit even pronounced you “rookie legislator of the year.”*
> 
> Well, it was actually quite easy. There is a very cynical political culture that has been entrenched for a long time, and it’s most pure incarnation can be found in the Harper government. It’s a culture that incorporates and demands low blows, lies as modus operandi and offers mealy-mouthed evasion when one wants to avoid the lie. Just by avoiding that trap, by giving myself the freedom to speak, which most people don’t have, by acting out of a little good faith and sincerity, I look like something unusual. It seems to me it should be the norm.
> 
> *But when Montreal Gazette calls you one of “24 Quebeckers we love,” don’t you risk losing your cred among your activist pals?*
> 
> One of my friends told me: “Amir. Beware. If the establishment and mainstream media start singing your praises, you’d better take a good look in the mirror.” He was joking, but it’s true I don’t talk like the hard-line leftists who are always complaining and assuming our adversaries are full of bad intentions. I recognize there are a lot of people in the political machinery who wish things worked differently. There are a few people in politics, who I won’t name, who operate in bad faith, and they know it. But I understand someone like Jean Charest has to consider a complicated equation of loyalties and allegiances before he can act. On calling an inquiry into corruption, for example. There’s another solution, of course. If it was me, I’d resign. But it’s not always simple. You can have radical goals and be moderate in your tactics.
> 
> *Not everyone considers throwing a shoe at an effigy of George W. Bush or bailing Jaggi Singh out of jail to be the moves of a moderate.*
> 
> Dissidence must not be criminalized. People who call the entire system into question also deserve protection from the heavy hand of authority, even if I disagree with their tactics or some of their aims. Listen, I’ve never been an anarchist. But 25 years ago, we were encouraging such dissidence against the Soviet Union. My entire family has always fought for democracy in Iran the same way. We shouldn’t be hypocrites. You notice Jaggi Singh almost always wins in court? That’s because the rule of law in a democracy finally prevails after political powers and the police illegally crack down on people like him.
> 
> *Do you miss medicine?*
> 
> Actually, I still practise in a clinic half a day every two weeks, and for a few weeks in the summer. I keep my hand in it because I’m afraid that if I lose it, I’ll be too vulnerable to compromise. We’re human, a person has to make a living. I’m married, I have three children, I have commitments. If I become too dependent on politics, I’ll have much less freedom.
> 
> *Have you drawn any new lines in the way you act since becoming a politician?*
> 
> When I used to take road trips and I needed to take a leak, I would stop and piss in a farmer’s field. I can’t do that any more. If the police arrest me for peeing in public, well … you do lose a certain liberty. I don’t run red lights on my bicycle any more. At least, not very often. I know people are watching me. I’m also a better driver. Somebody wrote me a letter for telling me I was obstructing him on the freeway for driving too slow! He said, “Now we see the true nature of the politician.” I couldn’t get over it. Politically, I’m determined to stay true to what I believe. I’ll listen to my [teenage] daughters when they think a certain protest might turn out badly. But it doesn’t happen very often.
> 
> _This interview was edited and condensed._



It seems to me that one of the (several) reasons that military service is a “high calling” is that we many of you *defend*, at risk of your very lives, Dr. Khadir’s right to hold and to express views that you may find abhorrent. You do not need to support or protect the actions, which are, often, destructive and downright illegal, of many “protestors” but you *must* protect and defend, with “unlimited liability,” their fundamental rights, one of which is to hold legitimate political views which are contrary to yours.


----------



## pbi

> You notice Jaggi Singh almost always wins in court? That's because the rule of law in a democracy finally prevails after political powers and the police illegally crack down on people like him.



ER: I agree with your position that we "...must protect and defend, with “unlimited liability,” their fundamental rights, one of which is to hold legitimate political views which are contrary to yours..", and I would go beyond that to say that it isn't just the job of the CF: it's a basic premise of a truly civil society. Far too often (including, sadly, on a few occasions on these pages) when we say "free speech" what we really mean is "free speech for those who agree with me". Far better to let people speak, than to muzzle them

However, I'm not an advocate of unrestrained expression. I subscribe to the belief that is expressed in the quote above: that the rule of law will (must) triumph over abuse. Now, I'm sure the writer and I would not agree on what "unrestrained expression" might mean. To me, it means that I draw the limit at violent acts, or at words that a reasonable person would clearly understand are intended to cause violence in society.

So, I would agree completely with nonviolent demonstrations, even if they block traffic or cause temporary inconvenience. I might not like it, but I want to be sure that if I  (or my kids or friends) ever felt strongly enough to take part in a demonstration like that, we could do so safely. What I would not agree with would be vandalism, assault, intimidation or speeches that were very clearly intended to exhort people to that sort of behaviour. At that point I would expect the police to intervene, in a measured and disciplined manner, to preempt violence or restore order.

In order to preserve a civil and democratic society through rule of law (as opposed to mob rule), I am definitely not a believer that our court system should be any more responsive to politicians or popular opinion than it already is. Politicians make and pass laws: in my view that is quite enough, thanks. In my opinion, people who urge that (for example) judges should not be able to interpret written law, or that judges should not be able to amend law through precedent, etc and instead want tighter political control of judges (sometimes called "accountability) are making the huge mistake of assuming  that the politicians in charge will always be the ones they like. Far better, in my opinion, to let the legal system function as freely as possible, so that the transient government of the day can't meddle to serve its agenda or its particular constituency. I want the judge trying my case to make his decision on good legal principles and the evidence, not on whatever public opinion of the moment demands.

Cheers


----------



## mariomike

$45 million lawsuit:
http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/89912--office-worker-becomes-face-of-massive-g20-lawsuit

http://g20classaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Issued-Notice-of-Action.pdf


----------



## armychick2009

mariomike said:
			
		

> $45 million lawsuit:
> http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/news/local/article/89912--office-worker-becomes-face-of-massive-g20-lawsuit
> 
> http://g20classaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Issued-Notice-of-Action.pdf



I guess she wasn't happy being stuck in her house for a few days?


----------



## The Bread Guy

*<lesson learned tangent>*
Remember the "even if we DID want to deal with black block protesters in our midst, how could we possibly do so?" philosophy espoused by some?

Here's a bit of a case study re:  what can happen when a group is unhappy with what some smaller team of troublemakers is doing:


> Six local queer grassroots activists and allies protested the military recruitment booth yesterday located in the heart of the post pride parade celebration at sunset beach. Some of the activists were wearing Guantonamo bay detainee suits, and knelt in front of their table, as the others handed out anti-military propaganda.
> 
> Within 5 minutes of being there, activists were forcefully surrounded by over 20 hostile security volunteers. The volunteers immediately began to snatch leaflets from protesters hands as well as the people who received them. The volunteers asked them to leave the premises, telling them that it was an illegal action, then they proceeded to create a human shield that would not allow sight to the action as they shouted "[the activists] are not welcome here.”
> 
> The police were eventually called, and the activists were escorted off the grounds. While queer supporters of the anti-war activists followed them to show their solidarity with the cause. The juxtaposition was that the volunteer queers were protecting the state as the state sat on their asses and watched the whole thing go down.
> 
> Vancouver Pride president and full time reactionary alarmist Ken Coolen was especially hostile when confronting the protesters. Tension was high as this was not the first time Coolen had tried to infringe on the communities freedom of expression ....



Also note the "those dirty rotten organizers siding with the oppresive state apparatus" messaging as well.
*</lesson learned tangent>*


----------



## vonGarvin

I'm confused...Who was protesting what, and who did what to whom?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I'm confused...Who was protesting what, and who did what to whom?


Small group of rabble-rousers protest CF presence at Gay Pride Event, GP Event folks confront them and say, "not the time, place", called cops, had rabble-rousers taken away.  That was for those saying, "well, what CAN we do if there's people we don't want around?"

Meanwhile, more charges laid against one of those arrested earlier - this via Postmedia News:


> A young Ontario woman accused of being one of the organizers of violent action during the G20 Summit in Toronto in June now faces 13 criminal charges.
> 
> The Crown laid additional charges Thursday during a bail hearing for Kelly Rose Pflug-Back, 21, of Norwood, Ont.
> 
> The new charges include conspiracy, intimidation of a police officer and obstruction of justice. She is currently in custody on seven counts of mischief over $5,000.
> 
> Pflug-Back is accused of smashing windows and destroying property at a number of downtown Toronto businesses including an Urban Outfitters, Adidas store, McDonald's restaurant and a CIBC bank branch.
> 
> The University of Guelph student appeared for the hearing in a green prison jumpsuit.
> 
> Pflug-Back is alleged to be one of the organizers who used anarchist "Black Bloc" tactics, in which members dress in black with their faces concealed behind handkerchiefs to prevent police from knowing their identities. The group has been blamed for torching police cruisers and causing at least $250,000 in damages.
> 
> Pflug-Back's parents, Douglas Back and Ursula Pflug, sat in the front row of the courtroom.
> 
> A temporary publication ban has been placed on evidence presented at the proceedings ....


----------



## vonGarvin

> Pflug-Back is alleged to be one of the organizers who used anarchist "Black Bloc" tactics, in which members dress in black *with their faces concealed  * behind handkerchiefs to prevent police from knowing their identities.



And here, ladies and gentlemen, the Technoviking unconceals Kelly Rose Pflug-Back's  face:


----------



## OldSolduer

Well done Techno!!


----------



## vonGarvin

Look at this photo:






Please note the flag in the background.  No, not the *PRIDE* flag, but the PLO flag.




I'm sorry, but if you associate with elements such as that, you lost, in my opinion, all credibility.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

She's pflugly alright.  Put the mask back on.


----------



## vonGarvin

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> She's pflugly alright.  Put the mask back on.


Naw, she's just an idealistic 21 year old who still believes that we older folks "just dont' get it" and that she is the modern hippy.  I suspect that she's going to get a severe dose of reality, when her education comes crashing down and all her peers (eg: same aged students) end up going on and living their lives.

Irony: when she has to work at one of the stores she smashed, just to pay for more ear loop thingies.  

EDIT TO ADD:
I'm not much into profiling, but I suspect the following about her:
She's vegan or vegetarian, or whatever it is where you can't eat meat.  OK, she's an herbivore.
She's lesbian.
She's unemployed.  Or she works at PETA or some hemp shop.
She's from a rich family.
She always rebelled at home for "some reason"

Now, I suspect all of the above, because a quick google search shows that she's in the press more than once for "activism".  Someone that age with that much time on their hands has no meaningful employment keeping them busy (hence not gainfully employed).  Now, given that the meat industry is just that, and she's against "the man", well, she's not going to partake now, is she?  She goes to university, so I suspect her family has means.  And as such, her tuition (quite expensive) is paid for.  And coming from a rich family, she probably has two hard-working (workaholic?) parents.  As such, she had to jump up and down to scream (figuratively) to get their attention.  I suspect that this trend continued through her teen years.  This leads me to her being a lesbian, not because she _is_ a lesbian, but because "coming out" to her parents as one probably shocked them.  Same with all of her tattooes, her ridiculously sized earrings.
Anyway, she is facing serious charges, is most likely a bit of a martyr to her peers.  Hopefully that once she serves her debt to society, she "grows up" (as it were), because I also suspect that she's rather intelligent.  She appears to be a "leader" (in a bad way, yes), but a leader nonetheless.  She knows what she wants, but in the end, I put it all down to being naive.  Unfortunately, for her, she's probably going to learn a very expensive lesson, because if she's convicted of these crimes, she faces steep penalties indeed.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, for her, she's probably going to learn a very expensive lesson, because if she's convicted of these crimes, she faces steep penalties indeed.



Doubt it.  If she's as useless a ration converter as the appears to be, she'll qualify for legal assistance.  She'll kick around in lock up until the trial comes, she'll plead guilty to time served and agree to do a bunch of "community service" where she'll be such a disruptive beeotch she will get punted out with minimal hours served.  She'll be on probation for three years with some sort of idiotic condition like "sustain from deliberately creating public disorder" or some other unenforceable condition.  And I'm also betting she never pays back a cent.  Either she'll plead hardship and she can't pay or the Gothic nerd squad vandals she hangs out with will pony up the money for her.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

That is not a vegan!

No one that 'normal looking' subsists on a vegan diet. I'll bet a dollar to donuts (cooked in animal fat) that she regularly cranks out uncontrolled flatulance caused by the digestion of humongous amounts of animal protien. You just can't subsist on greens and tofu and look that regular and healthy.


----------



## George Wallace

Technoviking said:
			
		

> And here, ladies and gentlemen, the Technoviking unconceals




Looks like her "colleagues" in the background are also easily identifiable "Black Bloc" activists at the G8/G20 in much of the film and video footage shot.


----------



## George Wallace

The question of money was brought up just a few posts ago.



Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


*
G20 protester granted bail on $80,000 bond
*

Postmedia News 
August 13, 2010

LINK 

A woman accused of being part of a group of protesters who caused $250,000 in damage to Toronto storefronts and police cruisers during the G20 Summit in June was granted bail Thursday. Kelly Rose Pflug-Back, 21, of Norwood, Ont., was released on $80,000 bond to her parents, Doug Back and Ursula Pflug. Justice of the Peace Lynette Stethem ordered that Pflug-Back must live with her parents, obey any rules they set and be placed under house arrest unless in the direct company of a parent. She must also be available within 15 minutes to the police if she's home. Pflug-Back faces a total of 13 criminal charges.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

=================================================================

*
G20 protester granted bail
*

By Linda Nguyen, Postmedia News
August 13, 2010

LINK 

A young Ontario woman accused of being part of a group of protesters who caused $250,000 in damages to Toronto storefronts and police cruisers during the G20 Summit in June was granted bail Thursday. 

Kelly Rose Pflug-Back, 21, of Norwood, Ont., was released on $80,000 bond to her parents, Doug Back and Ursula Pflug. 

Ontario Justice of the Peace Lynette Stethem ordered Pflug-Back must live with her parents, obey any rules they set and be placed under house arrest unless in the direct company of a parent. She must also be available within 15 minutes to the police if she's home. 

She was also ordered to not contact any of the other suspected G20 protesters or members of an activist group she founded in Guelph, Ont., not possess any weapons or drugs and is forbidden to use the social networking site Facebook. 

Stethem also prohibited the accused from organizing or participating in any protests and she can only be present with her fiance, Julian Icham, who is also charged with G20 crimes, in the company of her parents. 

Pflug-Back faces a total of 13 criminal charges related to incidents on the weekend of June 26 and 27. These include eight counts of mischief over $5,000, one count of conspiracy, one count of wearing a disguise, one count of obstruction, one count of failure to comply with an undertaking and one count of intimidation of a justice official. 

Originally only facing the mischief charges, Crown Attorney John Hely laid the additional, more serious charges in light of new evidence, which came out during the two-day bail hearing. 

The Toronto police have still and video images of someone who looks like Pflug-Back smashing windows and destroying property at a number of downtown Toronto businesses, including an Urban Outfitters, Adidas store, McDonald's restaurant and a CIBC bank branch.

© Copyright (c) The StarPhoenix

===================================================


----------



## vonGarvin

Well, one of my assumptions appears to be correct: she's from a family of wealth.


----------



## vonGarvin

Both parents _appear_ to be artists, so maybe not the "establishment" types at all:

Mother

But certainly accomplished.  I wonder if Mom and Dad are proud or concerned about their daughter's "exploits"


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Well, one of my assumptions appears to be correct: she's from a family of wealth.



Not necessarily.  People sign "bonds" all the time and never put up a cent.  Basically, you are saying that you agree to be on the hook for that money if the person they are vouching for screws up.  The fun part (Go Justice!!) is that when the breach of conditions occurs, they don't generally go after anyone for the money.  So they could have put up a $10 000 000 bond and it wouldn't matter.  Now, if they had put up an $80 000 _cash surety_, that is different.  
Oh, and even if brat gets pinched breaching, her parents can hustle down to the police station and do a report requesting their bond be revoked.  As long as the report is in before the kid goes to court they are extra Scott free.  
So basically, the bond means nothing.  At least with her out, she isn't getting any dead time credit.  

Honestly, if this was your idiot child, would you bail her out?  I sure as hell wouldn't.  Nice message they are sending her.


----------



## vonGarvin

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Honestly, if this was your idiot child, would you bail her out?


I would bail out my kid.  Then my kid would be begging to go back to jail.  Not to get her away from "the man".

But thanks for the info.


----------



## 57Chevy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Looks like her "colleagues" in the background are also easily identifiable "Black Bloc" activists at the G8/G20 in much of the film and video footage shot.



I see we are still encountering these hooliganistic bric and brac instigators out there.
I can't help to notice the fatty in the picture. The same that was all decked out 
in black busting up something or other much earlier in the thread.

Oh.....Techno...I agree......Lesbian.......but could add "Man Hater" [the worse kind (of that species)]


----------



## canada94

This was scary times, both of my parents where there with the RCMP. Interesting stories from them.


----------



## Fusaki

> $115M G20 class-action lawsuit launched
> Last Updated: Thursday, September 2, 2010 | 6:16 PM ET Comments1Recommend1
> CBC News
> 
> Two people who were jailed during June's G20 summit in Toronto have launched a $115-million class-action lawsuit against the Toronto Police Services Board, federal Attorney General Rob Nicholson and the Peel Police Services Board.
> 
> Mike Barber and Miranda McQuade, both of Toronto, are acting as representative plaintiffs for the approximately 1,150 people who were detained, arrested and incarcerated at a temporary detention centre in Toronto's east end after police clamped down on demonstrators after high-profile incidents of vandalism.
> 
> The suit was filed Thursday at the Ontario Superior Court of Justice in Toronto.
> 
> The plaintiffs said in a statement of claim that they launched the lawsuit to, among other things:
> 
> * ensure that democratic rights and fundamental freedoms in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms can be exercised by everyone without fear of detention, arrest, harassment
> * deter the defendants and any other public authority from acting in a manner that arbitrarily limits people's democratic and constitutional rights.
> * bring the practices of public authorities into line with the Charter and common law.
> 
> The class-action lawsuit is the second one in less than a month.
> 
> In a separate lawsuit that's seeking $45 million, Sherry Good is acting as the representative plaintiff for more than 800 people who claim they were wrongfully arrested during the G20 summit. That one filed Aug. 6 is against the Toronto Police Services Board and the federal attorney general.
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/09/02/g20-class-action-lawsuit.html#ixzz0yPnU7x00



I'm not surprised that there are so many people claiming to have been wrongfully arrested.   It seems as though cop cars were torched and windows smashed by only a few dozen people at most.  How is it that well over 1000 found themselves detained?


----------



## George Wallace

I hope the majority of these IDIOTS have their cases thrown out of court and are charged all court fees.


----------



## cn

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised that there are so many people claiming to have been wrongfully arrested.   It seems as though cop cars were torched and windows smashed by only a few dozen people at most.  How is it that well over 1000 found themselves detained?



Just a simple case of wrong place, wrong time.  

Now I know personally a few people detained, but from their explanation they were standing there watching all the mayhem happening around them.  And as I said to them, if you weren't there watching, you wouldn't have been rounded up with them.  For the most part they understand why they were arrested, but bitter about the experience none the less.  And to my knowledge anyway, not part of any lawsuit.


----------



## The Bread Guy

"All a-BOAAAARD, departing Class Action Litigation Station!"



> Two residents of Toronto are spearheading a proposed class-action suit arising out of the mass detentions at the G20 summit in June.
> 
> The plaintiffs have named the city's police services board, Canada's attorney general and the police board from neighbouring Peel region.
> 
> The proposed action — on behalf of about 1,150 class members — seeks $115 million in various damages.
> 
> Among other things, the suit alleges the policies and procedures used during the summit violated the plaintiffs' rights.
> 
> It also claims false arrest and imprisonment, infliction of mental suffering and invasion of privacy.
> 
> The action, which has yet to be certified, is filed in Ontario Superior Court and none of the allegations have been tested of proven.


Shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the _Copyright  Act_ from the Canadian Press.


----------



## 57Chevy

Somehow I just knew that it would come to this  ;D

"The action, which has yet to be certified, is filed in Ontario Superior Court and none of the allegations have been tested of proven."

:argument:


----------



## Danjanou

And in a related story several Toronto Lawyers were seen visiting the new Lexus showroom. 8)


----------



## Jarnhamar

1000 arrests does seem much, like they were just arresting anyone within reach. Seems amateurish.

It would have been nice to see the jerks smashing windows and breaking stuff arrested on the spot,  instead of various  bystanders.

Don't get me wrong, crowding around a bunch of outnumbered cops trying to make arrests is plain dumb and just asking for trouble. It just bugs me to see dumb mouthy  "I know my rights!" idiots arrested (Giving them exactly what they want)  yet see videos of the black bloc fools walking up the street unchallanged.


----------



## mariomike

Danjanou said:
			
		

> And in a related story several Toronto Lawyers were seen visiting the new Lexus showroom. 8)



Wait until we get our property tax bills.


----------



## George Wallace

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> 1000 arrests does seem much, like they were just arresting anyone within reach. Seems amateurish.[/quote[
> 
> Guess you weren't there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apollo Diomedes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would have been nice to see the jerks smashing windows and breaking stuff arrested on the spot,  instead of various  bystanders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read up on BLACK BLOC tactics.  Once these idiots commit their acts of vandalism, they dispose of their outer black garments and disappear into the crowd.  Now, you, Apollo Diomedes, go and find them in a crowd of 20 thousand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apollo Diomedes said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, crowding around a bunch of outnumbered cops trying to make arrests is plain dumb and just asking for trouble. It just bugs me to see dumb mouthy  "I know my rights!" idiots arrested (Giving them exactly what they want)  yet see videos of the black bloc fools walking up the street unchallanged.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These people claim that they know their rights, and in the majority of cases it is all bravado and a bluff.  They in actual fact don't know very much about the LAW.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jarnhamar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Guess you weren't there.


Thankfully no. Were you "there? I don't just mean on Op Cadence somewhere in TO, I mean at ground zero on the streets where the riots were going on.
I'm sure lots of posters here were "there" but not in the middle of things.
Wonderbread seems to have been at ground zero but for some reason that doesn't seem to help his credibility. Is it because people just don't like what he's saying?



> Read up on BLACK BLOC tactics.  Once these idiots commit their acts of vandalism, they dispose of their outer black garments and disappear into the crowd.  Now, you, Apollo Diomedes, go and find them in a crowd of 20 thousand.


Police presence would stop them from donning their masks I'm sure.  Much like the bait car left out in the open, it looked to me, based off various videos I've seen, that the police left places undefended and open to black bloc dickheads. I've heard one explanation for this being that the police couldn't guard the whole area and had to concentrate on securing the inner cordon or whatever, that makes sense. Arresting hundreds of by standers just seems like a waste when we could have used those cops to take a more aggressive role in catching the actual Vandals.




> These people claim that they know their rights, and in the majority of cases it is all bravado and a bluff.  They in actual fact don't know very much about the LAW.


Agreed.  In some of the videos I've watched the police at times don't seem too sure of the laws themselves either but maybe that was deliberate.


----------



## mariomike

Globe and Mail
3 Sept 2010
"Police made mistakes in G20 tactics, chief admits for first time":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/police-made-mistakes-in-g20-tactics-chief-admits-for-first-time/article1694815/


----------



## Old Sweat

mariomike said:
			
		

> Globe and Mail
> 3 Sept 2010
> "Police made mistakes in G20 tactics, chief admits for first time":
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/police-made-mistakes-in-g20-tactics-chief-admits-for-first-time/article1694815/


They checked the long gun registry and it cleared them to go, as none of the protestors were registered gun owners.


----------



## mariomike

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> They checked the long gun registry and it cleared them to go, as none of the protestors were registered gun owners.



Perhaps so. All I know about federal politics is what I read in the papers, and on here. Most of the gunshot wounds I was sent to were not reported by the media, as they looked to be suicides. I suppose in that state of mind, they just picked up whatever was available. 

Regarding, "Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair’s admission Thursday that he made mistakes policing the G20 summit’s most controversial incident...", I would think he has had a chat with City solicitors in the aftermath of G20.:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/lawyers-question-why-blair-admitted-g20-policing-mistakes/article1696184/
I worked for a Toronto department that got sued a lot. The unwritten rule for us street-level types was clear: "Never, NEVER, admit the Department did anything wrong!"  ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> They checked the long gun registry and it cleared them to go, as none of the protestors were registered gun owners.




 :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## mariomike

7 Sept, 2010
Toronto Sun
"G20 protester launches lawsuit against police: A woman who alleges she was shot with rubber bullets by Toronto Police during the G20 summit is at the centre of a lawsuit expected to be detailed Wednesday.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/07/15276021.html


----------



## George Wallace

A little dated.

Here reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:


Life after the G20 protests
by Nicholas Köhler and Stephanie Findlay on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:00am 

LINK

*Two activists who spent 24 days in custody are out and talking—and the police are still listening*

Leah Henderson was in bed when she heard the police break down her front door and tell Alex Hundert, her fiancé, and Mandy Hiscocks, the couple’s friend and fellow activist, to hit the floor. It was just after 4 a.m., and Henderson, who is 25, had a second or two to wonder whether she should get her pants on; when she saw the red dot of a gun scope bounce down the hall toward her, she decided against it.

This was in the early morning of June 26, the day that protests against Toronto’s G20 summit would devolve into a chaos of smashed windows and blazing police cruisers, much of it wrought by militant Black Bloc demonstrators. Crown prosecutor Vincent Paris has described Henderson, Hundert and Hiscocks, part of a small group of activists arrested during pre-emptive raids that day and now facing G20-related conspiracy charges, as “executives” of an anarchist group that helped organize the havoc. Their arrests, he added, followed a 14-month police investigation.


Now, after 24 days in custody, Henderson and Hundert are out on bail—$100,000 apiece—and each face nine charges, including conspiracy to assault a peace officer and conspiracy to obstruct justice. (Hiscocks, 36, faces outstanding charges and is out on $140,000 bail; she now lives under house arrest at her sister’s Ottawa home.) They are serious charges—Hundert faces a count of counsel to escape lawful custody—commensurate with the part authorities say they played in planning violent political protests that caused property damage into the hundreds of millions of dollars and triggered the arrests of over 1,000 people. The Crown has appealed the couple’s bail, a rare gambit lately seen in terrorism cases; the matter is slated for Superior Court on Aug. 19.

Yet during an interview with Maclean’s at Hundert’s mother’s home in Toronto’s Earls­court district, where Henderson is under house arrest, they present themselves as polite and articulate—social justice activists whose deep concern with both Aboriginal self-determination and the environment approaches the religious. With their chunky black spectacles, tattoos and long hair—his is worn in a ponytail—they accept the prospect of more jail time with almost martyr-like resignation. So severe is their anti-colonialist philosophy that they call themselves “settlers.” Such sympathy with militant First Nations groups is a common thread among Canada’s leftist radicals.

They refuse to discuss their roles in the G20 rampage, citing a publication ban, and will not comment on the mayhem; yet they stop well short of condemning it. Hundert is 30 and under house arrest at the home of his father, a Toronto health care consultant. His mother is a social worker who teaches at Wilfrid Laurier University, where Hundert himself studied global studies and religion. A former Whistler, B.C., ski bum, he did not become deeply involved in radical politics until he took part in a barricade that members of the Grassy Narrows First Nation, north of Kenora, Ont., set up in 2006 to protest nearby logging. He went on to work with Aboriginal activists during the Caledonia land claim that year and, in the ramp-up to the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games, participated in a Guelph, Ont., protest in which an Olympic torchbearer was knocked over mid-run. Henderson, who met Hundert at the Grassy Narrows actions, which she helped organize, is from a left-leaning Edmonton family, and has been quoted on political issues as a protester in local newspapers since her early teens. A paralegal, her income pays the couple’s bills.

Weeks before his arrest, Hundert told the Toronto Star he had been approached by CSIS officers wondering about his plans for the G20. He refused to speak to the agents. Yet he may have already given them a good idea of what his intentions might have been. Writing on the left-leaning Rabble.ca, he defended the Black Bloc, calling it “a wrecking-ball tactic that makes space for more mainstream or creative tactics,” concluding: “People and communities are under attack and it is time to fight back. If you’re not willing to stand up and fight, or to support those who are, please at least get out of the way.”

The story of the couple’s stay in prison can sound at times like an ironic retelling of The Count of Monte Cristo. Arrested at gunpoint, then handcuffed—the police eventually put Henderson’s pants on for her—the trio began hearing their cellphones ringing madly as they sat outside the couple’s rented Bloor Street apartment in a police van; their fellow activists elsewhere in the city were also being raided. Henderson and Hundert were the first to arrive at the east Toronto film studio that police used as a temporary G20 detention centre—a place the size of a football field made all the more cavernous because it was still empty. Later, transferred to prisons in Milton, Ont., Hundert read the Bible, did pushups and watched World Cup soccer. Henderson and the other female G20 arrestees passed the time doing yoga and, out of bits of paper and empty sachets of sugar, fashioned a makeshift version of the Settlers of Catan board game.

They argue the charges and the police response to the G20 protests reflect a growing tendency in Canada to criminalize political dissent. Last week, after seeing the couple quoted in news reports—relatively innocuous statements in keeping with Hundert and Henderson’s anarchist bent—officers called their parents, who are acting as sureties, to warn that the couple risked breaching their bail conditions and could be rearrested. According to the couple, the police told the sureties that direct quotes in news reports posted online could be interpreted as attempts to communicate via the Internet, or as an attempt to organize public demonstrations, both violations of their conditions. “The conditions don’t prohibit people from speaking to the media,” OPP Inspector Dave Ross says. “It was what was being said that was viewed as being a violation of the bail conditions.” Counters John Norris, Hundert’s lawyer: “It is unusual to have bail terms interpreted this way. It goes well beyond the bail orders and anything that the police ought to be doing in a constitutional democracy.”

Other oddities have cropped up as part of the G20 prosecutions. There is the matter of the temporary Public Works Protection Act regulation that authorities said gave police a mandate to search and demand ID from anyone coming within five metres of the G20 security fence. It emerged later that the law never afforded authorities that option, and that police and the Ontario government neglected to correct the misapprehension until after the summit. When 31-year-old Dave Vasey, the only person charged under the rule, arrived at court last week with his summons to appear, he found his charge had vanished from the computer system. “We were all excited to go to trial,” says Vasey, a York University graduate student. “That it was lost was pretty convenient for the powers that be.”

Then there is the 53-year-old man, Gary McCullough, whom police arrested a day before the G20 summit began after discovering he was hauling a crossbow, a chainsaw and jerry cans in a homemade box strapped to the roof of his car. Though police later said his arrest had nothing to do with the G20 and even suggested he would not be charged, McCullough remains in jail in Milton over a month later and now faces one count of weapons dangerous. His defence lawyer, James Carlisle, says McCullough, who lives in a rural area north of Toronto, is a diagnosed schizo­phrenic who would in any other circumstance have been quickly released on bail. Yet Carlisle says the case has been “coloured” by the G20, not least because the matter continues to be handled by the special team of Crown attorneys tasked with the G20 prosecutions.

(The complexities here can be almost laughable. Rachelle Sauvé, a G20 protester from Peterborough charged with obstructing police and wearing a disguise to commit an indictable offence, must have had some satisfaction when a Peterborough, Ont., newspaper printed a clarification headlined “Not in costume” explaining that an article stating she’d been “wearing a clown outfit when she was arrested” was incorrect. “Sauvé says she wore several costumes throughout the week to stand out,” it says, “but was not in a costume at the time of her arrest.” Maclean’s also reported Sauvé was dressed as a clown.)

Meanwhile, Henderson is looking forward to Sept. 4, when she will travel to Edmonton to attend her younger sister’s wedding as maid of honour—a trip that required some negotiation with the Crown. Still, she is not permitted, as per the conditions of her bail, to spend time alone with her own fiancé. One or other of their sureties must chaperone the couple.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> discovering he was *hauling a crossbow, a chainsaw and jerry cans i*n a homemade box strapped to the roof of his car. Though police later said his arrest had nothing to do with the G20 and even suggested he would not be charged, McCullough remains in jail in Milton over a month later and now faces one count of weapons dangerous. His defence lawyer, James Carlisle, says McCullough, who lives in a rural area north of Toronto*, is a diagnosed schizo­phrenic *who would in any other circumstance have* been quickly released on bail.*




Good idea.


----------



## George Wallace

Many of the points made in this article have already been mentioned in our discusion so far.


Here reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:


G20 team uses high tech to find tiny clues
17/09/2010 6:31:32 PM
ctvtoronto.ca 

LINK

*A team of Toronto police investigators is spending 12-hour days behind computer and video monitors, looking for tiny clues in images to identify those responsible for a massive vandalism spree at the G20 summit this past June.*

They are sorting through more than 40,000 still images and countless hours of videos, taken during the June 26-27 meeting of world leaders in Toronto.

Their foes used so-called Black Bloc tactics.

The vandals joined a massive, peaceful labour-sponsored march on June 26. They emerged out of the crowd on Queen Street, dressed in black, and went on a 90-minute rampage in the downtown core outside the inner and outer G20 security zones.

Business windows were smashed and six police cruisers either torched or otherwise damaged.

As the vandalism wound down, the vandals -- who numbered in the hundreds -- went to great lengths to hide their identities as they stripped off their black clothing and blended back into the crowds.

Police had aircraft and satellite images to supplement the CCTV cameras mounted on streetlight posts, images captured by undercover officers and those sent in by the public.

But the vandals knew they were being watched from above.

They would form a circle and hold up an umbrella. After their fellow vandals stripped off their black clothing, they would look like almost anyone else on the street.

"If you watch the tactics, they'll all face out," Det. Mike Jander told CTV Toronto. "They'll all face out with the umbrellas out to block it."

CTV Toronto cameras captured some of the vandals "de-bloc-ing" on that chaotic day, even though their fellow vandals tried to shield them.

But while people can shed their clothes, they can't easily shed other physical aspects of their identity, such as:

piercings 
tattoos 
sunglasses 
shoes
Jander and Det. Bill McGarry are part of the squad that operates out of a secret location.

"As you get closer to their body, they have has something that makes them uniquely different from the next Black Bloc person," McGarry said.

With one person of interest, it's what's on their head.

"This is a male that looks like him. He's got the same hat," McGarry said. "I'd have to see what else he was wearing and compare his clothing.

Looking even closer at the images of another suspect, they can find even more unique identifying marks.

"He has what appears to be a mole or a mark on his arm," McGarry said. "It's kind of hard to seen on the screen but he actually appears to have the same thing."

A search of the Internet revealed the man to be playing drums in a band.

They think he lives in New York state, and are working with police there to identify and possibly arrest the man. Det. Sgt. Gary Giroux, who heads the G20 team, has said at least two of his "worst of the worst" suspects are from the New York City area.

Every person of interest has a file folder into which their photos are dropped.

Police have periodically released photos of G20 suspects, seeking the public's help in identifying suspects. They last sent out an update on Wednesday.

The last new suspect arrest was announced on Sept. 10. More than 20 arrests have been made by the team to date.

Giroux has said he believes the team has rounded up most of the GTA and southern Ontario-based suspects.

While more than 1,100 people were arrested on that weekend, about three-quarters were never criminally charged. Almost 60 others had their charges dropped last month.

More than 230 cases remain before the courts, including those of 17 people the police consider ringleaders.

But the number doesn't include those as yet-unidentified suspects the G20 detectives are still seeking.

With a report from CTV Toronto's Austin Delaney


----------



## PuckChaser

Can't hide from the prying eyes of a camera. Especially in downtown TO, there's cameras in every store/bank/office building.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Like we need ANOTHER probe?  Highlights below mine...


> A group of lawyers, civil libertarians and politicians are renewing their calls for a full public inquiry into the G20 summit.
> 
> The call comes 100 days after the controversial gathering of world leaders was held in Toronto.
> 
> NDP Leader Andrea Horwath says she'll introduce a bill in the Ontario legislature that would create an inquiry to examine all aspects of government and law enforcement decision-making related to the June summit.
> 
> Howard Morton, a lawyer who defended the only person charged under the province's so-called fence law, and Graeme Norton, a lawyer with the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, are urging the public to support the bill.
> 
> They say a full public inquiry is needed to get to the bottom of what happened.
> 
> *Even though six separate reviews of the G20 are already underway, they say none have the mandate or jurisdiction to provide the answers many people are seeking* ....


More from the Canadian Press here.


----------



## OldSolduer

I'll tell em what happened:

A bunch of professional agitators smashed windows and burned police cars. Not because they beleive in anything; they caused havoc and destruction because they could.

The next G20 should be in Russia in the shadow of the Kremlin.


----------



## Baloo

Where, oh where, are the people who complained about the $1.1 billion budget, now that this event has more probes than a backwoods Alabama UFO tale?

This horse needs to be taken out behind the barn, and quickly.


----------



## mariomike

"TTC wants $2.7M from feds for G20: The TTC is asking the federal government to foot a $2.7 million fare for expenses incurred during the G20.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/29/15521711.html


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:
			
		

> "TTC wants $2.7M from feds for G20: The TTC is asking the federal government to foot a $2.7 million fare for expenses incurred during the G20.":
> http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/09/29/15521711.html



I'm sure they made some cash off those same protesters, they had to get downtown somehow.


----------



## Journeyman

TTC wants $2.7M from feds for G20
Of course they do.


> Around *$1.2 million was related to staff time * while *$1.5 million was due to lost ridership* mostly from when the Saturday protests erupted into rioting, forcing a transit shutdown.
> 
> “Almost all of it was overtime,” TTC spokesman Brad Ross told the Sun, explaining the $1.2 million figure


Send the $1.2 million bill to the transit union and $1.5 million to the protesters. 

Just keep Toronto's hands out of my tax-paying pockets


----------



## Baloo

I wonder if the TTC offers to send back excess fares from increased ridership during events that draw tourists, such as the CNE, Toronto Indy, etc. 

Oh, wait.


----------



## mariomike

Baloo said:
			
		

> I wonder if the TTC offers to send back excess fares from increased ridership during events that draw tourists, such as the CNE, Toronto Indy, etc.
> 
> Oh, wait.



Speaking of the CNE: Reply #611:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-950697.html#msg950697

Sun:
"Front St. wrong place for G20 leaders to meet: Editorial: This as opposed to the city-owned Allstream Centre at Exhibition Place, which has been recommended by city staff and makes much more sense.":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2010/02/18/12937011.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

Greeeeeeeeeeeat....  THIS is how to get to the bottom of things in an efficient, professional, non-partisan fashion  :


> A House of Commons committee will look into questions about costs and police actions at the June G8 and G20 summits.
> 
> New Democrat MP Don Davies says the public safety committee will begin hearings this month into the billion-dollar security price tag for the summits and complaints that authorities breached the rights of demonstrators.
> 
> Hundreds of people were arrested at the G20 meeting of world leaders in Toronto after extensive damage in the city's downtown.
> 
> Some peaceful protesters complained of police violence, threats and mistreatment in custody.
> 
> The Conservatives initially balked at hearings, saying other investigations into the summits should be allowed to run their course.


Shared Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._ from the Canadian Press here.


----------



## mariomike

October 14, 2010 
"The Crown has dropped charges against more than 100 people who were arrested during the G20 summit in Toronto.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/10/14/g20-charges-dropped685.html


----------



## mariomike

October 16, 2010
"G20 policeman seeks $1.2 million over cartoons": 
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/10/16/toronto-g20-cop.html

Re:
"TTC worker caught in G20 police sweep: Man arrested and held 36 hours despite uniform, identification":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/830858--ttc-worker-caught-in-g20-police-sweep

Update:
24 Sept 2010:
"So the update so far is, I have been off work since July 4th 2010.":
http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/story/letters-g20/4703

Interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTXMupeLN2U


----------



## Fusaki

November 4, 2010
"90 officers facing disciplinary action for hiding their identity at G20"
http://www.thestar.com/news/torontog20summit/article/885563--90-officers-facing-disciplinary-action-for-hiding-their-identity-at-g20

From that article:



> *Of the more than 1,100 people arrested over the G20 weekend, less than two dozen are still facing charges.*



So much for freedom from arbitrary arrest...


----------



## Container

Arrest and charges are seperate. Lots of people are arrested without charges only to be released later. All are articulated (at least the majority of them- bad cops exist). Such as Breach of the Peace Section 31 CC- no punishment section Just used to arrest people like unruly protestors. Or 175 CC Aresstable offence which often results in no charges.

These are not arbitrary. They are real and legal. Write your MP if you feel so strongly about it. Or go for ridealong and see why these sections exist.

As an aside- dont associate weak kneed prosecutors and political minded judges as the yard stick for whether someone can be arrested or not.


----------



## Fusaki

So there's nothing unusual about laying charges against only 2% of the people you actually detain?


----------



## Container

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> So there's nothing unusual about laying charges against only 2% of the people you actually detain?



LOL I would have questions about any police officer with that kind of track record. But I would need to see what people were charged with to make create an informed opinion. Riots and demonstrations are not usual circumstances. It IS certainly something that should be scrutinzed.


----------



## Fusaki

Fair enough.  We'll see how the story develops...


----------



## 57Chevy

One thing for certain, I aggree with this guy



			
				Baloo said:
			
		

> This horse needs to be taken out behind the barn, and quickly.


----------



## The Bread Guy

19 Oct 10:  First Reading of Bill 121, _G20 Public Inquiry Act, 2010_, introduced by NDP MPP Peter Kormos

4 Nov 10:  The vote to move Bill 121 into Second Reading....


> The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 8; the nays are 28.
> 
> The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I declare the motion lost.


Interested in the debate before the vote?  Click here.


----------



## Container

http://www.infomedia.gc.ca/rcmp-grc/articles/unrestricted/2010/11/rcm201011321184721_25.htm

From the Toronto Star:

'Technicality' freed protesters
Police didn't have warrant to arrest 100 people at G20, but still had grounds to do so, Blair says
Dan Robson Toronto Star

   A "legal technicality" forced charges to be dropped for about 100 people rounded up by officers as they slept in a university gym during the G20 weekend. 

   The problem is that police didn't have a warrant, says Police Chief Bill Blair. 

   Regardless, the officers acted on "reasonable and probable" grounds when they made the arrests on June 27, Blair told the House of Commons safety committee on Wednesday. 

   They didn't think a warrant was necessary, he said. 

   "Officers don't always need a warrant to make an arrest," said police spokeswoman Meaghan Gray. "It was after the fact that the Crown attorney determined that they did." 

   On Oct. 14, the Crown dropped all charges against the group, which hailed mostly from Quebec and was invited to stay in the University of Toronto gym by the graduate students' union. 

   The Crown agrees police had "reasonable and probable grounds" to make the arrests, but it couldn't find a "reasonable prospect of conviction" against any of them, said spokesman Brendan Crawley. 

   Police say many of those arrested had black clothing and "weapons of opportunity," such as rocks, bricks and sharp objects. It was the same style of clothing and weaponry used by the Black Bloc during the violent rampage that tore through the downtown core the day before. 

   Those arrested say they were threatened with rubber bullets. Some say they were kicked in the ribs. Some had their hands bound with zip ties. Some spent more than two days in a makeshift detention centre. To police, the arrests were a practical tactic to prevent more destruction. 

   To those detained, they were a violation of rights and an unwarranted show of force. 

   The lack of a warrant does "not negate the fact that they had evidence to make the arrest," Blair told the safety committee. 

   That evidence has only been seen by police investigators and the Crown, which found no grounds for conviction. 

   "The charges were dropped before any disclosure was provided," said lawyer Luba Szkambara, who represents four people arrested in the gym. "So, I really can't tell you very much about what (evidence) there was, except that there wasn't enough evidence to proceed," Szkambara said. 

   Etienne Poitras, a Montreal lawyer who represented eight people rounded up in the gym, said the undisclosed evidence and the Crown's dismissal of the charges tells the story. "They didn't have any proof against them for any charge," he said. 

   Blair, however, was steadfast in his defence of the Integrated Security Unit's actions. "The courts determine guilt or innocence," Blair told the committee. "The police have to act on reasonable and probable grounds," Blair said. "And that's what took place in this case." 

   Of more than 1,100 people were arrested during the G20 weekend, only 315 were charged. Of those, fewer than two dozen still face trials

*****

The Crowns suggestion that a warrant was required is bizarre. Unless an unreasonable amount of time lapsed between the offence and the officers identifying the people in the crowd a warrant is not required.

I think its more political than anything else.


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> The Crowns suggestion that a warrant was required is bizarre. Unless an unreasonable amount of time lapsed between the offence and the officers identifying the people in the crowd a warrant is not required.



My understanding (acknowledging that I don't have all the facts) is that the police had infiltrated this particular group for months prior to the arrests made during a (presumably deliberate) early morning raid on the U of T campus.  Would that make a difference?


----------



## George Wallace

My understanding is that this group 'sponsored' (in given a place to stay) by U of T persons, was several bus loads of Anarchist groups from Montreal and Quebec who had openly posted that they were going to the G20 to conduct Black Bloc tactics.


Remember the girl who complained that her car was stopped by police because "she had Quebec plates" and that they found "black clothing, a baseball bat, anarchist literature" etc. in her trunk.  I suppose she could have been related to the guy who rode in on the GO Train with his "Midevil weapons"........ Both a few bricks short of a load........and their elevators didn't go to the top floor.


----------



## Fusaki

George Wallace said:
			
		

> My understanding is that this group 'sponsored' (in given a place to stay) by U of T persons, was several bus loads of Anarchist groups from Montreal and Quebec who had openly posted that they were going to the G20 to conduct Black Bloc tactics.



That's the way I understand the situation as well - which is why the story doesn't seem to jive.  

If the police had infiltrated this group in the months prior to G20, they had all sorts of online postings regarding Black Bloc tactics, and they had the time and wherewithal to plan and conduct an early morning raid to arrest these people, then _why did they not bother to get a warrant?_

One interpretation would be that the police knew that even under their intense scrutiny, there was not enough evidence against these people to get a warrant for their arrest - but they went ahead and arrested them anyway.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

More than likely a judge would want exact names and numbers to every last detail as he/she sits all high and mighty in the safety cocoon that LEO's provide for them whilst they play demigod.

Not that I have an opinion or anything. ;D


----------



## Container

"_The Crown agrees police had "reasonable and probable grounds" to make the arrests_, but it couldn't find a "reasonable prospect of conviction" against any of them, said spokesman Brendan Crawley"

From the article indicates that they would have had enough for the warrant. As information involved in warrants is based on this weight as well. Reasonable prospect for conviction is a seperate evaluation conducted later.

I would suggest, as with all recent, similar arrests and seizures that have been tossed because of a lack of a warrant, that it was laziness where someone in charge decided they didnt need one.

Warrants are the new fad in courts and the police are getting charges tossed all over the place because there was no warrant. The rules on which types of circumstances/offences require them are changing to the point where books 6 months old about writing informations to obtain are out of date.

Your suggestion that they could not have gotten a warrant doesnt jive with statements from the Crown.


----------



## GR66

I actually heard an interview with Chief Bill Blair on CBC Radio this morning (I know, I know) and I may be wrong but I _thought_ I heard him say that there was a problem with the interpretation of there being a warrant required for the arrests.  Something along the lines of a determination being made (by the Crown or by a Judge?) that the Gym they were staying at would be considered a residence requiring a particular type of warrant for them to search (as opposed to a public place?).

I only had time to do a quick search to see if I could confirm what I thought I heard but big surprise there are a "couple" of items that come up when you use the keywords "G20", "arrest", "thrown out" and "warrant type"!  LOL


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> "_The Crown agrees police had "reasonable and probable grounds" to make the arrests_, but it couldn't find a "reasonable prospect of conviction" against any of them, said spokesman Brendan Crawley"
> ...
> 
> ...
> Your suggestion that they could not have gotten a warrant doesnt jive with statements from the Crown.



Oops!  I missed that.  My bad!


----------



## Container

That would make sense. If the police investigator had made the call that they were not dealing with temporary "residences" then the warrant mistake could be made.

*OPINION FOLLOWS*

But it is certainly lazy. That would be a case where if you were serious about your investigation and people were staying "residing" in a gym you would want a judicial authorization.


----------



## mariomike

Ottawa— The Canadian Press 
Friday, Nov. 05, 2010 
"RCMP watchdog launches G20 probe: The RCMP watchdog has launched a public-interest investigation into policing of the G8 and G20 meetings, the latest in a string of probes of violent summit clashes and mass arrests.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/rcmp-watchdog-launches-g20-probe/article1787768/


----------



## Fusaki

An interesting video that I think sheds some light on some of the topics we've touched on in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjVtsuoPlzk

1:34 A guy states that he does not consent to being searched.  Cop grabs him and states "You don't get a choice" and then tells him that "the rule is" he either has to consent to be searched or leave.  He then asks the police what they think he's doing that is illegal, and they refuse to tell him.

3:25 A bystander asks "I thought as long as he's not within the 5 Meters [of the security fence] than he's fine." The cop responds that "This is our area" and tells them they people they have to leave.

4:00 The cop again tells the guy that he has to open his bag.  The guy responds that "This is Canada and I shouldn't have to do that."  The cop responds: _*"This ain't Canada right now...*_


----------



## mariomike

Nov. 10/2010
Sounds like some PTSD claims coming up.
"Did you suffer post-traumatic stress after this experience?":
http://www.thestar.com/news/torontog20summit/article/888798#article

Looks like they even made a movie about it:
http://www.torontog20exposed.ca/

Sun:
Joe Warmington:
 November 12, 2010:
"Video exposes ugly truth about G20: Like you would expect in North Korea, it doesn’t look like we are going to get a federal inquiry into what the hell happened during the G20. But thanks to independent documentary filmmaker Derek Soberal we do have a comprehensive record they can’t quash. 
It’s called Toronto G20 Exposed and it’s an A to Z video rundown of all that occurred — from Officer Bubbles, to the overlooking of the real criminals, to disgraceful torching of police cruisers, to the embarrassing arrest (assault?) of a peaceful one-legged protester, to the rubber bullets and covered name tags, to alleged beatings and the disgraceful kettling exercise at Spadina and Queen.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/11/12/16116486.html

"Your G20 table for 66 is waiting":
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/890273--your-g20-table-for-66-is-waiting

CTV Montreal:
"Group demonstrates against police handling of G20 protesters":
http://montreal.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20101112/mtl_protest_101112/20101112/?hub=MontrealHome


----------



## zipperhead_cop

The talk about a "warrant" is a bit of a misnomer.  What they lacked was a Feeny endorsement to enter the premise.  Likely, the police felt that since it was a public access building and the persons within were not permanent residents there, they were good to go.  One would have hoped they could have found someone that would provide consent to go in, however when you have 100+ armed people in a place you might not want to tip them off that the hammer is about to fall.

For backgrounds sake, R vs Feeny is a pivitol case in Canada where officer went into a trailer to arrest a guy for murder but ultimately it was tossed when it was found that they shouldn't have entered on the grounds that they did.  

IMO, the Court and Crowns just wanted to find a way to make all the charges go away and relieve themselves of a time consuming process.  Doesn't matter that it will simply embolden more protester idiocy in the future.  It just goes to reinforce my idea that these G8, 20, 37 get togethers should happen on a custom built luxury Gucci aircraft carrier that is in the middle of an ocean near the host nation.


----------



## Fusaki

What's your take on the video I posted above?


----------



## Fusaki

http://www.thestar.com/news/torontog20summit/article/896777



> *SIU clears officers in G20 probe*
> 
> Published On Fri Nov 26 2010
> 
> Brendan Latimer was knocked down by a herd of fellow protesters during a G20 demonstration at Queen’s Park.
> 
> Lying on the ground, police moved in and arrested the delivery worker. That’s when one of the officers allegedly struck him in the face, causing a fracture.
> 
> The 19-year-old’s case is one of six from the June G20 summit that has been probed by Ontario’s Special Investigations Unit.
> 
> *On Thursday, the agency announced no charges will be laid against police officers for injuries to civilians during the G20 protests.*
> 
> In Latimer’s case, the agency interviewed nine witness officers from the Toronto Police Services as well a civilians. SIU director Ian Scott concluded that *while there was “reasonable ground” to believe excessive force was used, they were unable to tell which officer caused his injuries.*
> 
> “I’m let down, I’m very frustrated,” said Latimer, who says he also suffered two broken ribs and a deep cut to his head.
> 
> “They spent all this money installing cameras and surveillance devices . . . I’m enraged that they could use that stuff to catch protesters but not to catch police.
> 
> “It just seems like a double standard,” he added.
> 
> The SIU has a mandate to probe incidents involving police that result in death, allegations of sexual assault or serious injury.
> 
> Frank Phillips, an SIU spokesperson, said that only six complaints from the G20 were investigated by his agency because, “these cases met our mandate of serious injury.”
> 
> Dorian Barton, 29, was at a demonstration near University Ave. and College St. when he turned around to take pictures of mounted police officers with his cellphone. He was allegedly taken to the ground by a male anti-riot officer and suffered a fracture to his right arm.
> 
> Like Latimer, the officer could not be identified. Scott also said that Barton could not fully explain how the injury occurred.
> 
> “I ended up suffering a lot because of what happened to me and it’s frustrating no one is going to be held accountable,” said Barton.
> 
> In another incident, a YouTube video titled “Toronto G20, Peaceful Protester Tackled and Roughed Up,” shows Adam Nobody being chased by a group of about six uniformed police officers.
> 
> He is then tackled to the ground.
> 
> *Because the officers all wore identical helmets and uniforms, it was impossible to identify which one is responsible for causing a fracture below Nobody’s right eye, said Scott.*
> 
> Two officers were identified as having something to do with the incident, but exercised their rights, declining an interview with the SIU.
> 
> Nobody, 27, also alleged that two plainclothes officers took him behind a van, and repeatedly kicked him in the head. Scott said he found “no corroborative evidence.”
> 
> “It’s disappointing that the SIU felt that they were unable to get sufficient evidence to lay charges against any of the officers given the fact that all six of the complainants investigated did receive serious injuries,” said Toronto lawyer Peter Rosenthal.
> 
> “One would have thought the SIU would have been able to identify some of the officers.”
> 
> The Star recently ran a series of investigative reports examining a lack of results and accountability for police officers probed by the SIU over two decades. The series, “Above the Law,” found evidence that Ontario’s criminal justice system heavily favours police and concluded that officers are often treated far differently than civilians when accused of shooting, beating and running over and killing people.
> 
> “The record of the SIU has not been very good at pursuing charges against officers who have seriously injured people,” added Rosenthal.
> 
> Norm Morcos, whose complaint was also being investigated, said he wasn’t surprised. But not because the SIU was ineffective.
> 
> “The (SIU) officers I was dealing with were diligent and motivated,” said Morcos, who suffered a hand fracture, possibly from a police baton, while being corralled at Queen’s Park during the summit.
> 
> “I did not think that it would be likely that police officers would come forward and identify themselves as having contributed to my injury,” he said.
> 
> Toronto Police Association President Mike McCormack said it’s important to remember there were officers from across the country who came in to police the G20, “not just ours.” Responding to the SIU’s conclusions, he said: “Mr. Scott put it the best. There was insufficient evidence for him to the lay the charges.”
> 
> For Brendan Latimer, it’s all very frustrating.
> 
> “Just to know that they can say ‘Yes, we know this happened, but there’s nothing we can do about it,’ ” he said.
> 
> “If they can’t do anything about it, who can?”









I'd also like to bump the youtube video I previously posted for comments.  I think it shows quite clearly the kind of arbitrary searches I personally saw and described here back in July when I first started posting in this thread.



			
				Wonderbread said:
			
		

> An interesting video that I think sheds some light on some of the topics we've touched on in this thread.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjVtsuoPlzk
> 
> 1:34 A guy states that he does not consent to being searched.  Cop grabs him and states "You don't get a choice" and then tells him that "the rule is" he either has to consent to be searched or leave.  He then asks the police what they think he's doing that is illegal, and they refuse to tell him.
> 
> 3:25 A bystander asks "I thought as long as he's not within the 5 Meters [of the security fence] than he's fine." The cop responds that "This is our area" and tells them they people they have to leave.
> 
> 4:00 The cop again tells the guy that he has to open his bag.  The guy responds that "This is Canada and I shouldn't have to do that."  The cop responds: _*"This ain't Canada right now...*_


----------



## Container

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/11/29/toronto-police-g20-siu542.html


Toronto's police chief says an Ontario police watchdog used unreliable evidence to conclude that excessive force was likely used during the arrest of a civilian at a G20 summit protest.

Bill Blair on Monday questioned the legitimacy of a YouTube video that was a part of a probe by the Special Investigations Unit in the case of Adam Nobody, who suffered a facial fracture while being arrested by police at a protest at Queen's Park on June 26.


SIU defends investigation
But the SIU is standing by its investigation.

"What I can say is that if the chief has relevant information that will assist us in furthering these investigations, we'd certainly be willing to take them and review them and take any necessary action," SIU spokesman Frank Phillips said.

The SIU concluded that excessive force was "probably" used against Nobody. But after reviewing the video, interviewing a civilian witness and eight officer witnesses, they were unable to identify who was responsible for using that force. The SIU also identified two "subject" officers who were the focus of their investigation.

But those two unidentified officers declined to be interviewed by the SIU, a right that is enshrined in the constitution.

Blair did not specify whether those two subject officers were members of the Toronto Police Service, or affiliated with one of the many other forces that helped police the summit, which was held in downtown Toronto on June 26 and 27.

The SIU, which investigates cases where civilians are seriously hurt or killed in interactions with police, investigated five other cases where people alleged mistreatment at the hands of police during the G20. In one of those other cases, the SIU found officers had likely used excessive force. But the watchdog is not proceeding with criminal investigations on any of the complaints, citing a lack of evidence or an inability to determine how exactly the complainants sustained their injuries.

The video shows about a half-dozen police officers chasing and then tackling Nobody at Queen's Park. SIU director Ian Scott said the video appeared to show one of the officers striking Nobody repeatedly while he was on the ground.

Police forensically examined the tape and found it had been altered, Blair said.

"The evidence that they're relying on is false. It's been edited. A significant portion of it has been removed," he told CBC's Metro Morning.

"And I think that portion ... removes any opportunity for a reasonable explanation of the force that was used."

Blair said his impression was that the officers were arresting a "violent, armed offender. The use of that weapon has been removed from that tape."

SIU defends investigation
But the SIU is standing by its investigation.

"What I can say is that if the chief has relevant information that will assist us in furthering these investigations, we'd certainly be willing to take them and review them and take any necessary action," SIU spokesman Frank Phillips said.

The SIU concluded that excessive force was "probably" used against Nobody. But after reviewing the video, interviewing a civilian witness and eight officer witnesses, they were unable to identify who was responsible for using that force. The SIU also identified two "subject" officers who were the focus of their investigation.

But those two unidentified officers declined to be interviewed by the SIU, a right that is enshrined in the constitution.

Blair did not specify whether those two subject officers were members of the Toronto Police Service, or affiliated with one of the many other forces that helped police the summit, which was held in downtown Toronto on June 26 and 27.

The SIU, which investigates cases where civilians are seriously hurt or killed in interactions with police, investigated five other cases where people alleged mistreatment at the hands of police during the G20. In one of those other cases, the SIU found officers had likely used excessive force. But the watchdog is not proceeding with criminal investigations on any of the complaints, citing a lack of evidence or an inability to determine how exactly the complainants sustained their injuries.


----------



## Container

Ill watch that video when I get home Wonderbread...

However, I can't stand the Star. It is the least veiled in its anti- authority sentiment with such gems as " “Above the Law,” found evidence that Ontario’s criminal justice system heavily favours police and concluded that officers are often treated far differently than civilians when accused of shooting, beating and running over and killing people."

The SIU is reveiled by police in the way it handles its investigations. Anybody that suggests that the Police and SIU are cozy are completely insane. They would hang a cop on any nail they could find- I would suggest that the reason for SIU's crappy track record is the fact that the vast majority of police behave within the law. SIU has a super broad mandate that includes alot of scenarios where people get hurt (like hand fractures) fighting with police. Thats a pretty common injury- and in my experience (not at the G20) it the knucklehead who gives it to themselves.

The Star however concludes, erroneously, that a lack fo convictions means that its because they are a) inept and b) cop-lovers. Their logic requires you accept that the police are routinely beating people. Which I dont. And when they do, like in Alberta right now- where a cop pleads guilty to betraying the public trust, and straight up assault they should be run up the flag pole and drummed out of town. I have no patience for criminal cops. Be it DUI or assault.

Im gong to make a complete left field guess- SPECULATION>>>>The SIU made this "statement" to avoid looking like they were on the police officers side. In the past SIU lays shotgun charges. They would charge the group of officers involved and see how it played out in court. Its part of why their record is so bad. 

In this instance the investigator knows this is a deadend and lays it on the weak, already unpopular, cop not wearing ID badge and it gets them off the hook for being on the wrong end of the inquiry.

As an aside- I cant stand the fact that some of the officers took their badge numbers/ or ID off. I dont believe it was so they can beat the tar out of people but there was no way it was going to "look good". The crowd control guys should do like in Britain where they wear little ID numbers for easy recognition. But thats not the most popular suggestion.


----------



## PuckChaser

Yeah, the cop in that video obviously isn't an accomplished public speaker, he made some bonehead comments. However, all the guy had to do was let them look in the bag. If he had nothing in there, then he can stand and protest all he wants. Instead, he instigated something to make a grand statement on the Internet in a really crappy attempt to make the cops look bad.


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/11/29/toronto-police-g20-siu542.html
> 
> 
> Toronto's police chief says an Ontario police watchdog used unreliable evidence to conclude that excessive force was likely used during the arrest of a civilian at a G20 summit protest.



Here is the video in question.  You can judge for yourself what you think about any editing that may have been done and, more importantly, what you think may or may not have been cut out.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=Hym0afc03pE



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> However, all the guy had to do was let them look in the bag. If he had nothing in there, then he can stand and protest all he wants.



No, the guy didn't have to let the cop look in his bag.  As far as I can tell, the guy was well within his rights to refuse consent to be searched and it's wrong to try and find fault in him for that.

What makes this country worth fighting for is that the police can't arbitrarily search us, and that the cops have to obey the law just like everyone else.


----------



## vonGarvin

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> What makes this country worth fighting for is that the police can't arbitrarily search us, and that the cops have to obey the law just like everyone else.


Know what makes me sick to my stomach about this country?  People who seem to think that the police are out to "get us poor law-abiding civilians".  Makes me want to vomit, actually.



(Yes, I'm talking about you, Wonderbread, and people like you.  I'm sick to death to hear about all these "abuses".  Want some advice?  Steer clear of areas where thugs will attempt to hijack legitimate protests, or, better yet, tell the police about "them" and assist them in stopping those thugs from stealing attention away from those who would educate us.)


----------



## J.J

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Know what makes me sick to my stomach about this country?  People who seem to think that the police are out to "get us poor law-abiding civilians".  Makes me want to vomit, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> (Yes, I'm talking about you, Wonderbread, and people like you.  I'm sick to death to hear about all these "abuses".  Want some advice?  Steer clear of areas where thugs will attempt to hijack legitimate protests, or, better yet, tell the police about "them" and assist them in stopping those thugs from stealing attention away from those who would educate us.)



 :+1:


----------



## Fusaki

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Know what makes me sick to my stomach about this country?  People who seem to think that the police are out to "get us poor law-abiding civilians".  Makes me want to vomit, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> (Yes, I'm talking about you, Wonderbread, and people like you.  I'm sick to death to hear about all these "abuses".  Want some advice?  Steer clear of areas where thugs will attempt to hijack legitimate protests, or, better yet, tell the police about "them" and assist them in stopping those thugs from stealing attention away from those who would educate us.)



Yes, but what about the points I'm raising?  The videos? The photos? The SIU investigation? The doctors and lawyers who go arrested on their way home from work?  The moral fabric of this country?

Ad hominem attacks and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the issues I'm raising untrue.


----------



## vonGarvin

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Yes, but what about the points I'm raising?  The videos? The photos? The SIU investigation? The doctors and lawyers who go arrested on their way home from work?  The moral fabric of this country?
> 
> Ad hominem attacks and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the issues I'm raising untrue.


The attack isn't (a) an attack or (2) ad hominem.  I'm not sick of you, and I'm not commenting in any way about you.  I'm sick of your actions and commenting about them.  If you are unsure of what "ad hominem" means:


> An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:
> 
> 
> Person A makes claim X.
> Person B makes an attack on person A.
> Therefore A's claim is false.


So, if I refuted your claim by stating something along the lines of "Wonderbread is just a loon" or "Wonderbread can't be given credit, because his name begins with a consonant", then that would be ad hominem.

And trust me, the sky isn't falling in our country, unless we were to allow thugs to try to take over our nation through intimidation and force.


----------



## Container

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Yes, but what about the points I'm raising?  The videos? The photos? The SIU investigation? The doctors and lawyers who go arrested on their way home from work?  The moral fabric of this country?
> 
> Ad hominem attacks and sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the issues I'm raising untrue.



I still havent watched the video. Ive watched the "edited" one. There appears to be a lapse which even the videographer says is there. The SIU investigation is a sham. I said that. There is insufficient evidence to lay a charge. Just like everybody else in Canada would enjoy and if the cop had been wearing a nametag I guarantee there would still not be a charge. Crowd control is crowd control.

There is a time tested method of dealing with crowd control- one that creates less injured people and cops. And its fast and hard. Get over it. People used to die in these confrontations and actions all the time. Im sorry if it looks like being arrested is uncomfortable- the truth is that being arrested sucks. It hurts. The photos mean nothing- no application of force looks good. Its ugly. 60 years ago if you were in a labour dispute you could expect for someone to die. And the police would be at fault. The police were used to break the backs of labour disputes. We dont do that anymore. Canada is not becoming a police state no matter who suggests it. Its better now than it was. 

I will watch the one about the unreasonable detention and seizure though and get back to you.


----------



## PuckChaser

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> No, the guy didn't have to let the cop look in his bag.  As far as I can tell, the guy was well within his rights to refuse consent to be searched and it's wrong to try and find fault in him for that.
> 
> What makes this country worth fighting for is that the police can't arbitrarily search us, and that the cops have to obey the law just like everyone else.



But if you have nothing to hide, why worry about being search arbitrarily? What about airports? Bags are searched completely arbitrarily for everyone's safety. It wasn't like this cop was only trying to get in his bag, they checked everyone there equally.


----------



## mariomike

Container said:
			
		

> 60 years ago if you were in a labour dispute you could expect for someone to die. And the police would be at fault. The police were used to break the backs of labour disputes. We dont do that anymore.



True.
"The Emergency Task Force was created in 1965. Officers worked out of a downtown station and their primary function was to deal with strike situations.":
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/etf/

I got to see Metro Police in action many times over the years and was always impressed by their professionalism. They got the job done, even though it was not always pretty. The best word I can think of was "effective". 
It is pretty shocking to recall that we had four Metro officers shot to death in less than one year in the early 1970's.


----------



## Container

Ive watched the controversial arrest video so many times now. I honestly dont see what everybody sees as proof of a coming police state. The arrested was arrestable for something. Thought he was getting away with it. Cop chases him to arrest him and he tries to take off. When you run from the police the ensuing arrest is always like that. 

What is that he has in his hand? And the part where the one second missing is the most crucial [part of the video. If he turned and brandished anyhing including an air horn he would get similar treatment. Isnt it convenient that the second that might actually show why the response was the way it was is the second thats missing? I guess only when the "man" has footage its okay to accuse them of an agenda.

Here what I think happened. Buddy turned around and when it looked like the protestor was going to do something crappy the video guy turned it off. When it turned into a pig pile he turned it back on. Which is just as likely as his story about thinking the cop chasing the him when he is running the opposite direction.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Let us be a bit careful here:

1. Our police forces are made of human beings, not saints or robots. Being human they, our law enforcement officers, are very imperfect; and

2. We *trust* our police with great individual powers.

It would be amazing, unbelievable, indeed impossible if some (not many, but some) LEOs did not act improperly and, sometimes, even illegally – sometimes (usually, I think) in pursuit of what they see as being lawful goals, but occasionally because a very, very tiny minority of LEOs are assholes and bullies and, in fact, criminals.

It is impossible, for me, to believe that some abuses were not committed at the G20. Some _protesters_ were trying very hard to provoke the police into over-reacting; some of those attempts almost certainly succeeded. Some LEOs were overstressed, overworked and so on and made mistakes. A very tiny minority of LEOs _may_ have decided to take their frustrations out on the noisy, rude, provocative _kids_ in the mobs.

We, Canadians, should always be carefully critical of our police services. We *trust* them with great power; we need – we have a duty – to ensure that they merit our trust. In my personal opinion we, Canadians – people in the West in general – have been mismanaging the police for more than 50 years. As with the military we should expect that discipline is the _sine qua non_ of service and power. Discipline, in my opinion is incompatible with civilian _management_ and trade unions. I think, for example, that William Elliott is 180o off course in his recommendations for the RCMP. It needs to be *less* civilian and more, a lot more para-military in organization, management, training and attitude. Ditto the provincial and city police forces.

In my opinion:

1. The police Some LEOs *did* abuse their powers and act in manners that betray the public trust. They did it at the G20 and here in Ottawa and elsewhere; and

2. The police need to know, and be proud of the fact, that they have to earn our trust by their own performance, not as a matter of right.


----------



## Container

_Wonderbread Edit- I reread my post and while my points are there I dont like my tone- its not meant to be disrespectful. Its a little strong but I dont know how to rephrase it. It isnt my intention to offend._

Wonderbread: You leave out the parts where the [police are joking with the protestors. You  leave out the fact that it was an area with a security perimeter. He wasn’t denied his freedom of movement- he had to go around. He was offered the option to enter the block if he proved he was safe. He chose not to. He wasn’t arbitrarily detained. He chooses to stay and argue with the officer. Just because he does it in a passive tone doesn’t mean he wasn’t being a prick.

That officer had a bad attitude. Cops sometimes say flippant things to people who are being pricks. If you don’t think that those kids weren’t trying to give those officers a hard time you are kidding yourself. The cop was more than likely concerned with the fact that this kid wanted to hang around a secure area for no good reason. The only reason to be in that area is to transition to the next. Someone shows up in the area and tries to proceed. Declines to follow the temporary rules of the area and stays. People ran at the secure area all day. Now you have an uncooperative individual with a backpack he doesn’t want you to look in to, loitering, waiting for you to turn your back so he can ape the system and run at the fence. (so you suspect)
So you are having a shitty day listening to these people squawk nonsense charter lines at you and you give the kid the gears. Its is poor attitude- it is not a charter violation. Sometimes you cant bring a backpack in to a street festival. Its not because Stalin ordered it.

Did you see the amount of people shoving cameras in the officers faces and arguing with the police- they don’t have time to care-bear stare everyone into compliance.

It is quite obvious that you have your mind made up. And maybe you have some reason for it- sometimes cops do bad things. But these videos are not evidence of anything but poor attitude to anyone who looks at them critically.

And E.R. Campbell while I agree with you on your points I disagree with your examples. I have had to cut the clothing off suicidal young women and had them scream rape at me. I have done so with a heavy heart but there are times where it is required. And it looks terrible on video and anyone who watches it should be uncomfortable but it is not comfortable for the officers either. 

I'll give you an example. Female X is arrested by officers A and B. Both male. No females around. Female X is arrested only for public intox so no criminal charges are coming. Female X says to the officers Im going to kill myself in cells.Officers aA and B need to take her bra  from her. I actually have had several women hang themselves in cells with their bras. It is required. Dont for a second think its not. 

And as for BC well....thats not something explainable on the interwebs.

Its kinda like....people like law and order. But they dont like reality of obtaining those things. Things get broken and bloody. Sometimes people get hurt. Just like people like steak- but they dont like seeing the inside of an abatoir. I find all this very interesting- Im the cop that is always calling for cops to be fired over criminal things that happen. Im amazed at the line people who arent police have. The suggestions Canadians have for police work are at times....outlandish.


----------



## Container

Although- I dont know why they cut Stacy's shirt off. The court decision said it was a violation so perhaps it was- or the crown did a terrible job articulating to the judge why the police did it. I cant say. The lack of info in the news is frustrating .

As for the "violent knee strikes" the Judge mentions- those are standard tactics taught. And any SME, which the judge is not, nor is the defence or crown, on use of force can articulate why we do them. But they are pretty much the first go to move when you go hands on with someone. Its painful and takes their attention. Not in the head or spine though- but the environment is dynamic and these arewas can be struck accidently.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Container said:
			
		

> Although- I dont know why they cut Stacy's shirt off. The court decision said it was a violation so perhaps it was- or the crown did a terrible job articulating to the judge why the police did it. I cant say. The lack of info in the news is frustrating .
> 
> As for the "violent knee strikes" the Judge mentions- those are standard tactics taught. And any SME, which the judge is not, nor is the defence or crown, on use of force can articulate why we do them. But they are pretty much the first go to move when you go hands on with someone. Its painful and takes their attention. Not in the head or spine though- but the environment is dynamic and these arewas can be struck accidently.




IF I properly understood what the judge said, and that is a Big IF, Ms. Bonds was improperly detained from the get-go. The judge said that the patrol officers on the street had no proper, lawful reason to stop much less detain her. The judge is the SME in that; (s)he is the *only* SME on the law, unless or until an appeals court judge weighs in.

Now it is clear that Ms. Bonds had options: being detained - and she had no way of knowing if her detention was lawful or not - she could have and, arguably, should have cooperated with the LEOs, on the street and in the lockup. But she didn't, and the use of force - which appears excessive pretty strong - resulted, but it was, in the judge's  legal opinion, improper (illegal?) because her arrest (is that what it was? was she "under arrest?") was improper and, therefore, everything else was equally or more improper. That's what I thought I heard the judge say, anyway.

Is that a difference of opinion between a judge and street level police officers or do street level police and lockup officer not understand the law?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Is that a difference of opinion between a judge and street level police officers or do street level police and lockup officer not understand the law?



Or perhaps the ivory tower judges just don't understand what it's really like to be in the trenches with feces throwing baboons.


----------



## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> Or perhaps the ivory tower judges just don't understand what it's really like to be in the trenches with feces throwing baboons.




I really don't think it's that simple.

It is true that not many judges have much "street level" experience but their job is to interpret the law, fairly and even-handedly. Judges don't deal with tipsy pedestrians at 0200 Hrs and police officers don't have to parse the laws to decide who is more and less "right" or who is more or less 'wrong."

We, I anyway, used to be able to clear a _men's wet canteen_ at 2359 Hrs on a pay night without resorting to force (not that I had much to offer) or marching anyone to the guardroom. I'm not familiar with the streets of Ottawa at 0200 Hrs and I am prepared to concede that they are dangerous and violent but there was, I think, in the judge's *opinion*, no lawful reason to stop and question ms. Bonds, much less to detain her in the lockup.

The judge is, surely, _second guessing_ the police (and so, I suppose, am I) but that is part of the legal process. We *need* someone to _second guess_ everyone in authority, from the GG and PM down to the constable on Rideau Street.; and judges do that for us. I see the judges and the police as allies in contest with crime and public disorder.


----------



## Container

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> IF I properly understood what the judge said, and that is a Big IF, Ms. Bonds was improperly detained from the get-go. The judge said that the patrol officers on the street had no proper, lawful reason to stop much less detain her. The judge is the SME in that; (s)he is the *only* SME on the law, unless or until an appeals court judge weighs in.
> 
> Now it is clear that Ms. Bonds had options: being detained - and she had no way of knowing if her detention was lawful or not - she could have and, arguably, should have cooperated with the LEOs, on the street and in the lockup. But she didn't, and the use of force - which appears excessive pretty strong - resulted, but it was, in the judge's  legal opinion, improper (illegal?) because her arrest (is that what it was? was she "under arrest?") was improper and, therefore, everything else was equally or more improper. That's what I thought I heard the judge say, anyway.
> 
> Is that a difference of opinion between a judge and street level police officers or do street level police and lockup officer not understand the law?



Police officers often come across scenarios where they are ignorant to the law. I can admit it. The law is just to vast for a cop to keep up with. However judges are NOT experts on use of force. Neither are the police officers themselves. People with more experience than I or the judge determine what effective "intervention" is. This filters down through police instructors to the cops.

If there is a question of excessive force a prudent judge needs to hear from an expert on the subject. Since it would be strange for a crown to call a use of force expert for a trial where the police use of force isnt the question in this matter he would make a determination for himself- but it would be ill informed. The crown should have done a better job articulating the use of force. X did Y so the police did Z. But if she should not have been arrested in the first place than all the force afterwards would have been bad. But the Criminal Code has protections built in it for when the police use force to make an arrest, and all the stuff that comes after it, if a police officer is acting in good faith. Somebody obviously believed she should have been arrested for something. 

I would guess the reason she wound up in court at all on a public intox/ disturbance beef is because the officers used force and anticipated the scrutiny and laid a charge to "cover their bases" in case anyone questioned the force. Being totally convinced that they had acted appropriately and that the subsequent legal case would clear them. They were probably EXTREMLY surprised or shocked at this.

And in viewing the video- its an appropriate level of force for some scenarios. Apparently not for this one however. And I cant really speculate any further without ALOT more info. In the same manner that public is surprised when they see police use of force the judges are currently also experiencing similar growing pains. Reading that the officer applied two knee strikes in an effort to distract Stacy sounds alot better than seeing what that looks like. However the science behind the use of force hasnt changed- just the visibility of it. And its ugly.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Now it goes on the books as R. vs Bonds and will become a focal reference for every Clayton Ruby wannabe out there.


----------



## Container

I ve spent a little time reading about this Stacy thing now. If the facts are as they are presented by the various law blogs I read then I believe the police made a mistake- a fairly serious one. The problem with public intox arrests is there is the ever present danger of abuse. If it was the way it is in the version of events as presented I would have to concede the police are wrong. However, just because someone says they were not drunk doesnt mean they were not. Every imparied driver I have ever charged has been "sober" once court came around. She may have been drunk and been on the line- the police engaged her to figure out her level of intoxication. She answered a few questions and it was determined that she could probably make it home. She however once the questions are done does not keep going- she gets accusatory about why the police stopped her. She fails the "attitude test" and the police no longer believe she'll make it home without casusing some other problem. She is arrested. This happens.

That doesnt mean the ones in the block are the officers that arrested her. They might be the paddy wagon cops who were just supposed to arrest and transport her. So according to their belief she is lawfully in custody. The absolute worst people to lodge are the ones who have never been to jail before. They are terrible. They kick and spit. The female special constable _was_ kicked in the leg. That doesnt mean you get your clothes cut off.

I cannot for the life of me figure out why they took her clothes. Thats where they lose me- at the desk something happens and she resists whatever was asked of her- you can see the booking officer grab her handcuffed hand that was free- the prisoner is NEVER supposed to have control of the cuffs like that- the ONLY reason that happens is because they pull away and they are now ARMED with a handcuff. Therefore - the reaction is quick and violent in an attempt to regain control of the cuffs. She didnt like her hair pulled so she cow kicked the female special in the leg then its two knees in the back as a distraction and the struggle is moved to the floor. Once there I have no idea why the clothes are removed.

That is the only question I can see from the video. Anyway take it for what its worth. 10 years of fighting with drunks in a cell block. I' invite his Honor to come and strap on a vest. Ive worked with enough former social workers and teachers to know that in 6 months he'll be kneeing people to gain control as well or he will be losing fights and his partner will knee someones back to get them off him.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> but their job is to interpret the law, fairly and even-handedly.




I just laughed so hard I think I peed a little.......................

Sorry my friend but spend enough time around REAL court cases and read REAL CPIC alerts and not just the ones that make the media and you will see that your statement is not even close.
I would go with "thier job SHOULD be to, etc."


----------



## Edward Campbell

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I just laughed so hard I think I peed a little.......................
> 
> Sorry my friend but spend enough time around REAL court cases and read REAL CPIC alerts and not just the ones that make the media and you will see that your statement is not even close.
> I would go with "thier job SHOULD be to, etc."




We will have to agree to disagree because if it was that simple then we wouldn't have these problems.

I have a few acquaintances who are lawyers, a couple work in criminal law: they (both a crown and a pair of defence attorneys) seem to think most judges are pro-police and automatically suspicious of defendants. To be sure, there are some judges who are _soft_ on criminals and *hard* on law enforcement, but there are, also, some some dumb, careless and downright *criminal* cops and guards, too.

Fortunately neither group, weak judges or bad cops, is large - both are minorities in 'communities' that, by and large, serve and protect us all well.


----------



## Container

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> but there are, also, some some dumb, careless and downright *criminal* cops and guards, too.



We are in agreement on that. Believe me!


----------



## Fusaki

Technoviking said:
			
		

> The attack isn't (a) an attack or (2) ad hominem.



You said that I'm the kind of guy who thinks "that the police are out to 'get us poor law-abiding civilians'" with the _implication_ that my argument is less valid because of that.  In any case, by picking that one word and arguing the semantics of it, you've avoided the meat of my post entirely...




			
				Container said:
			
		

> I still havent watched the video. Ive watched the "edited" one. There appears to be a lapse which even the videographer says is there.



Fair enough.  I posted the video just to add context to Blair's comments.  He's saying that the video was edited, while the videographer said that he started filming, turned his phone off to run - which he said was a ~5 second time lapse, then turned it on again when he felt safe.  We'll never know for sure and I'm not going to try and argue one way or another.

But, as for the video I posted earlier....



			
				Container said:
			
		

> You  leave out the fact that it was an area with a security perimeter.



*They weren't in a security perimeter.*

The "secret law" gave the police the authority to search anyone within five meters of the security fence.  From the video, you can tell that this incident is happening on the north-east corner of King and University - _well outside of the area of expanded search powers._

For those not familiar with Toronto:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&expIds=17259,27740,27744,27823,27868,27878&xhr=t&q=king+and+university+toronto&nfpr=1&cp=27&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=University+Ave+%26+King+St+W,+Toronto,+ON&gl=ca&ei=R4H1TO-LCJXNngenrenCCQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA
and drag the "street view man" to the north east corner of the intersection and look south to see where the road is closed off in the video, and then north to see the subway stop (St. Andrew Station) in the video.

G20 Security Zone Map:
http://www.thestar.com/staticcontent/810896

So why, at 1:33 in the video, when the guy says "I don't consent to being searched" does the cop grab him and respond with "You don't get a choice"?

Why, at 1:47, does the cop say "The rule is, we either look in the bag, or you leave" when clearly, _that is not the rule._

Why are the police not allowing him to pass, when legally there should be nothing stopping him? At 2:23 the guy asks "Is it because I didn't consent to a search?" and the cop responds "Yeah."

The "secret law" of expanded search powers came in the middle of the night, and no one at the time really knew what the police were and were not allowed to do.  In this video, we see how the police not only exploited people's confusion, but full on _lied_ in order to conduct arbitrary searches contrary to the Charter, and Canadian values in general.

Combine that with the fact that while over 1100 people were detained, less than two dozen are facing charges.  What are we to make of all the allegations of arbitrary arrest?

Combine that with the fact that police officers removed their nametags so they could not be held accountable, and that the SIU concluded that they would have grounds to investigate individual officers for using excessive force, but cannot due to the fact that they can't identify them.

And combine that with the fact that _I'm_ telling you guys, as someone who's been posting on this forum since 2002 and who's shown over time to be a more or less reasonable dude, that what happened on that weekend in June was _wrong._

Look guys, I'm not an anarchist, or a terrorist, or some stupid hippy who's never left his parent's basement.  I don't particularly agree with any of the _causes_ of the G20 protesters.  Believe it or not, I actually tend to like cops.  I recently posted in another thread in this forum asking for help from the LEOs here.  But that doesn't mean that I can't, or shouldn't, call bullshit when I see people who are supposed to be protecting us acting outside of what the law and our western values deem as acceptable.  I wouldn't tolerate that in the military, and we shouldn't tolerate that with our police forces.


----------



## Container

Do you see the orange barrels in teh background controlling movement? Do you hear the female officer talking about dealing with unlawful assemblies all day? Like it or lump it the police have the ability to kick a group of people called an unlawful assembly out of the street. They then have a duty to ensure that it doesnt just reform behind them. So they control movement in and out of the area for a while.

There is a FOUR SECOND time lapse. Most police gun fights dont last that long. 4 seconds is an eternity.

The cop has an attitude problem. Do you see how nice and friendly the other cops were? There is always the one guy. When he said "you dont have a choice" he was being a dick and is saying that if you want to transit the area you have to consent to a search. Its almost unbelievable that you cant see that. Dont you notice how he doesnt search his bag but sends him back the other way?

He shouldnt have touched the guy- it looks weird. He was beiong a crusty old cops and Ive seen convictions for assault over less, trivial though it is. 

Ive already told you that lots of people are arrested for things like disturbing the peace without being charged. Its preventative and legal and needed to preserve the peace.  The charge is discretionary. 

As I said pages ago- its fine to call bullshit and get an answer to your question. But you are not required to like the answer. 

Anyways Wonderbread you have made your mind up. I admit the cop was a dick. And now we are just going in circles. I am a cop who admits when police screw up. And I guarantee that somewhere in the G20 security force a bunch of cops did stupid things they should be held accountable for. They are not proof of a police state, or your rights being eroded. They are examples of shitty cops that should be fired. 

Any other conclusions are just simply out of touch with reality.


----------



## Journeyman

Container said:
			
		

> it's fine to call bullshit and get an answer to your question. But you are not required to like the answer


That tends to be a recurring issue in those threads where one poster will be _the only one_ who "gets it" and everyone else is RTFO. Also known as "my boy is the only one on parade in step," or "mud-wrestling with a pig."

Sometimes it's best to just shrug and move on.


----------



## 57Chevy

Report on G20 security law coming next week
The Gazette article link

TORONTO — A report about the so-called secret G20 law that gave police extra powers in enforcing security near the perimeter fence surrounding last summer’s summit site in downtown Toronto will be released next week.

Ontario Ombudsman Andre Marin has spent the last 90 days looking into the law, passed by the provincial government days before the June 26-27 summit. 

It was widely believed that the law gave police the authority to arrest anyone who came within five metres of the downtown fence if they refused to show identification. The three-metre high concrete and metal fence stretched 3.5 kilometres around the Metro Convention Centre, where the leaders from the 20 wealthiest nations were meeting. 

But after the summit was over, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Toronto police Chief Bill Blair corrected the erroneous reports and clarified that the law only allowed police to search people who were attempting to enter the security perimeter. 

Marin’s findings, which will be released next Tuesday, were expected to conclude whether the regulation was necessary and how authorities communicated the law to the public. 

More than 1,000 people were arrested during the weekend summit, making it the largest mass arrest in Canadian history. The majority of the arrests did not result in criminal charges.

A small group of protesters dressed in black terrorized the downtown core, smashing windows of businesses and burning police cruisers. It’s estimated that $2 million in property damage was caused that weekend. The federal government had set aside $1 billion for security costs for the G20 and G8 summits, the latter held in Huntsville, Ont., just before the G20. 

A number of probes into the summit also have been launched. 
                           ________________________________________________________

Also at link, see:
•SIU reopens G20 investigation of videotaped incident
•Police chief challenges probe of police misconduct at G20 summit
•Cops cleared of excessive force allegations at G20
                         _________________________________________________________

                              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)



to correct article link


----------



## Fusaki

Container said:
			
		

> Do you see the orange barrels in teh background controlling movement? Do you hear the female officer talking about dealing with unlawful assemblies all day? Like it or lump it the police have the ability to kick a group of people called an unlawful assembly out of the street. They then have a duty to ensure that it doesnt just reform behind them. So they control movement in and out of the area for a while.



Those orange barrels mark the edge of the traffic control zone (Ref: the map I linked in my previous post), showing that they were well outside of the main protest area and nowhere even close to the 5 meter zone around the fence where the police had expanded powers to search people.

_*So, I ask again, are police allowed to lie to people in order to get the consent they need in order to conduct a search?*_


----------



## J.J

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That tends to be a recurring issue in those threads where one poster will be _the only one_ who "gets it" and everyone else is RTFO. Also known as "my boy is the only one on parade in step," or "mud-wrestling with a pig."
> 
> Sometimes it's best to just shrug and move on.



Seriously, we get that the police are bad, we are one step away from the gulags and North Korea will complain to the UN about us....

Can you agree to disagree with everyone else?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Those orange barrels mark the edge of the traffic control zone (Ref: the map I linked in my previous post), showing that they were well outside of the main protest area and nowhere even close to the 5 meter zone around the fence where the police had expanded powers to search people.
> 
> _*So, I ask again, are police allowed to lie to people in order to get the consent they need in order to conduct a search?*_



After all these pages and opinions you still think you're going to get the answer you want? Every attempt to placate and resolve has gone unheeded by you. I think it might be time to move on. You'll probably get the answer that you really aspire to getting over at Anarchy.com or some such.

Personally, I don't care that some buttmunch that instigated trouble for the spotlight, found it. The trouble with society, as I see it, is that there are not enough douchenozzles taking a regular shot to the hairy sack for making life miserable for the rest of us.

There's bad people and bad cops. Fact of life. Learn to live with it or spend the rest of your life in a padded room making baskets.

Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid.

Just my  :2c:


----------



## Container

What lie is in the video? You cant go through here unless I make sure you arent carrying a weapon. No? Then have a nice day in that direction. No lie required. If you are refering to the Toronto chief I dont have anything for you. The police were perform access control to that area of the city. I dont know why- and neither do you. Their reg numbers are right there in the video- demand an investigation instead of being like the other people on the news and just talk about it nonstop but dont actually do anything about it. The reason? Because if a formal complaint is launched and investigated a reason will come forward why it was shut down  and the ******* cop will get an attiude talk. But you STILL wont agree, even when shown to be legal, because you'll then create a new claim that the investigation is biased and the sky is falling. 

Orange barrels or not. _The police are allowed to shut down part of town due to unlawful assemblies_. Thats reality. They then slowly let life go back to normal. You have the freedom of movement. You do not have the freedom to go whereever you damn well please under any circumstances you so desire when there are people burning police cars, obstructing everyday people, damaging property, and trying to disrupt govenment meetings.

I recall the police shutting down Whyte Ave after oilers games a few years ago. I can close a beach. I can ground an air plane, and I can pull over you car. And if the peace is about to be breached I can arrest everyone in the street. 

No. The police cant lie to you to get consent. That nulifies the idea of informed consent. But guess what- there are times you cant go places without proving you arent a bad guy. If a cop searches you and you feel violated. File a complaint- then  if it turns out that you were wronged collect your big cash reward. But dont post it on youtube and use it as proof of one world government when you cant even be bothered to make a few calls about why it happened. 

Anyways- I wont be back in this thread unless a news story comes out and I need to apologize for giving the benefit of the doubt to the police. I know what it like to have a jug of piss thrown on you by a peaceful protestor. Until TPS throws jugs of piss back they get a little extra credibility.

Anyways Wonderbread- your older posts were well put together. So I dont think its a matter of you being a antiestablishment or whatever. Maybe you and I call truce until we see the reports that come out? Then I can beer you and provide an apology should it be required?


----------



## PuckChaser

Container said:
			
		

> No. The police cant lie to you to get consent. That nulifies the idea of informed consent. But guess what- there are times you cant go places without proving you arent a bad guy. If a cop searches you and you feel violated. File a complaint- then  if it turns out that you were wronged collect your big cash reward. But dont post it on youtube and use it as proof of one world government when you cant even be bothered to make a few calls about why it happened.



I completely agree here. But the individuals don't trust any government system unless its the one providing their free health care, or their subsidized post secondary education, so they won't file the complaint.


----------



## Fusaki

recceguy said:
			
		

> After all these pages and opinions you still think you're going to get the answer you want? Every attempt to placate and resolve has gone unheeded by you. I think it might be time to move on. You'll probably get the answer that you really aspire to getting over at Anarchy.com or some such.



Well, I think we agree on one point: minds have been made up and it _is_ time for me to move on.

What you're wrong about is that I'd have to go to anarchy.com to get the answers I want to hear.  While it might seem like I'm "the only one in step" in this very small community, I think _most_ Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular - are cognizant of the violation of Canadian values by the police and government administration responsible for security at the G20.

Given that, I'm going to step away from this thread and wait for it all to come out in the wash.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> , I think _most_ Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular - are cognizant of the violation of Canadian values by the police and government administration responsible for security at the G20.



I guess we just hang out with different sorts then because just about 100% of the folks I know [not just on here] are quite happy with the handling of the whole situation..............................and, personally I'm not one of them.

It was nowhere near heavy-handed enough for my taste.


----------



## George Wallace

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> ............. I think _most_ Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular - are cognizant of the violation of Canadian values by the police and government administration responsible for security at the G20.



I disagree.  I would say that most Canadians, in particular many Torontonians, are NOT cognizant at all as to what "Security" is, nor what measures must be taken daily to protect their 'Human Rights'.  They are for the most part very ignorant of these matters, and being in a normal state of blissful apathy do not question until such time as they perceive an injustice.  Usually the injustice that they perceive is not an injustice at all, but an ignorance of the Law.


----------



## Journeyman

....and besides, Starbucks had it coming to them.......dude.   :


----------



## Fusaki

And if you're not with us, you're obviously an _anarchist!_  :


----------



## George Wallace

Perhaps just anal.   >


----------



## Sapplicant

Anytime I go to NHL games, CFL games, outdoor concerts like rush/iron maiden at Bluesfest, I have had my bags searched. Do I see this as infringing on my rights? Hell no. Does everyone get searched? Hell yes. Does anyone raise a fuss? No, they generally don't unless they have something to hide. They'd rather get in.

At the g8/g20, when Canada's in the limelight, hosting the world's most prominent leaders and there's a risk some people might try to bring harm to them, or other people, it's suddenly against our rights and freedoms to have your bags searched if you want to "get in"? Seriously? Why would you give 3 and a half ****s unless you actually had something to hide, or were operating on an "agenda" of sorts?

Call me crazy, but does this seem a little.... odd?


As for the guy being "abused"...
Try crapping in a cop's cornflakes, then running away (evading arrest). 
That's what happens man, that's what happens.


----------



## Journeyman

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> And if you're not with us, you're obviously an _anarchist!_  :


Well, if you're going to appoint yourself as spokesman for what "most Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular" think, I suggest you get comfortable with tarrings by large brushes.

It's much like listening to one person go on.... and on........ and on.......... about the lying, evil, conspiratorial nature of the Toronto Police Service, notwithstanding _Container_ acknowledging that the one particular cop in the video was being a dick. 

I can only assume you believe such broad generalizations are only fair when being wielded by you. I therefore apologize with all due sarcasm for misunderstanding the rules.


Please treat this as rhetorical; there are no grounds for debate here, since you obviously speak on my behalf.  :


----------



## 2 Cdo

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well, if you're going to appoint yourself as spokesman for what "most Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular" think, I suggest you get comfortable with tarrings by large brushes.
> 
> It's much like listening to one person go on.... and on........ and on.......... about the lying, evil, conspiratorial nature of the Toronto Police Service, notwithstanding _Container_ acknowledging that the one particular cop in the video was being a dick.
> 
> I can only assume you believe such broad generalizations are only fair when being wielded by you. I therefore apologize with all due sarcasm for misunderstanding the rules.
> 
> 
> Please treat this as rhetorical; there are no grounds for debate here, since you obviously speak on my behalf.  :



Well said!  

I love when lefties try to claim a voice for all Canadians. :


----------



## Jarnhamar

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> Seriously? Why would you give 3 and a half ****s unless you actually had something to hide, or were operating on an "agenda" of sorts?
> 
> Call me crazy, but does this seem a little.... odd?


I live in an area absolutely ripe with smugglers. People alcohol guns cigarettes.  Just because I don't want some cop searching my shit doesn't mean I have anything to hide.


The cops misled the public, they can deal with the backlash.  The string of savage beatings popping up in the news by various law enforcment probably isn't aiding their image either.


----------



## Fusaki

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well, if you're going to appoint yourself as spokesman for what "most Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular" think, I suggest you get comfortable with tarrings by large brushes.



All you've done is deliberately misinterpreted one line of my post and attacked it as if that were my actual position.  Anything to avoid dealing with the meat of my argument, eh?

The fact that you're throwing up a straw man only strengthens my case.  It makes it obvious that you can't appeal to reason, but you have to say _something_ in order to avoid dealing with the _uncomfortable_ idea that you _may actually be wrong._


----------



## Journeyman

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> It makes it obvious that you can't appeal to reason.....


OK, since Googling "rhetorical" seems beyond you, I'll just spell it out:

- You do not speak for me or my beliefs.

- The legal SME explained the laws regarding "unlawful assembly" -- _repeatedly_, using _small words_.

- The guy with the bag, who you deem faultless, had the option of taking a different route.

- Taking a different route would not support his obvious agenda [attract support of like-minded anti-authority people].

- You have demonstrated repeatedly here that your mind (including apparently "most Canadians - and most Torontonians in particular" in your world) is made up, and _everyone else_ is wrong.


As such, *there is no reason* upon which to base an appeal


----------



## Scott

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Given that, I'm going to step away from this thread and wait for it all to come out in the wash.



Dude, walk away. Seriously.


----------



## Fusaki

Scott said:
			
		

> Dude, walk away. Seriously.



Walking away... for real this time...


----------



## Sapplicant

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> The string of savage beatings popping up in the news by various law enforcement probably isn't aiding their image either.



To be fair, savage beatings at the hands of LEO's is nothing new. From my perspective, what went on at the g20 was pretty tame as far as police brutality goes.

I understand your issues with having police go through your stuff, but your neighbourhood and the "secure zone" are 2 different things. Privacy of your home, and when walking down a normal street on a normal day, are almost assumed. This, however, was not a normal day, or street.


----------



## Container

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I live in an area absolutely ripe with smugglers. People alcohol guns cigarettes.  Just because I don't want some cop searching my crap doesn't mean I have anything to hide.
> 
> 
> The cops misled the public, they can deal with the backlash.  The string of savage beatings popping up in the news by various law enforcment probably isn't aiding their image either.



As an aside- youd be crazy to be okay with anyone having the power to look at anything you have just because you are outside. I cant imagine a cop being okay with being able to do that either- well not one that should be working in Canada. But my long standing rule is that should a cop do anything weird to me Ill look into it after. Should I run in to a wing ding I dont want it to be anyworse than it is already. 

As for the one massive beating in the news right now, the mountie from Alberta, I watched the video and he should a)lose his job and b) get a massive penalty from the court. He went on to blatantly lie in his notes and reports. THEN the force should sue him for the damage he did to their image!

THEN the guy standing around should lose his job. So should the guard. 

I'll give you an example- I was in a small town in where we live next to the detachment. A guy told someone that in the morning when he got he was going to walk over to the house and rape a wife(in a very matter of fact way). He then punched one cop in the face. It was on. He lost and before the cop that he had wronged so large could cross the line we seperated them. When somebody loses their shit thats whats supposed to happen.

Im familiar with the places that the Cst. from the video policed and it is totally believable that he has some left over issues. However- he chose not to get help and beat people and lie about it. Give him the worst we can and then stick his picture on the gate going in to the police colleges.


----------



## Container

Wonderbread-Here is a new story about Blair having to try and take back his words AGAIN.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/03/toronto-chief-123.html

One just wishes he would shut up and let the investigations speak for themselves. It is quite the embarrassment for him to keep shooting from the hip and having to take things back. It doesnt change the video or the interpretation. It just again detracts from the strength of Blair's words. It would be inappropriate for me to call for him to resign but he doesnt seem like he is doing TPS any favours with his current style.

As a side note- you understand that it is inappropriate for SIU to say that someone probably used excessive force. Or that they are probably guilty. To demonstrate why this is dumb reverse it- if I investigated you for assaulting someone but I cant meet the threshold to lay a charge would it be appropriate for me to do a news release saying that you were probably guilty? Its amateurish and is absolutely against the rights of everyone involved. I would suggest that its a dangerous erosion.

The investigation needs to be completed. charges to be laid if warranted- both criminal or police act and the results of those investigations need to aired in public. Blair needs to shut up, and so does SIU.


----------



## Nemo888

_"Blair also apologized to Adam Nobody, 27, the man arrested and injured during the protest at Toronto's Queen's Park, for the suggestion police officers were rushing to arrest an armed criminal and that is why force was used against him."_

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/03/toronto-chief-123.html#ixzz1772iEqhX

Bwhahaha, poor guy. I can just imagine how his arrest went.

"Kid, I said tell me your name!"
"Nobody."
"Don't get smart with me you piss ant."
"No really, it's Nobody."
"I have had enough of this identify yourself!"
"NO BOD EE. Do I need to spell it for you?"
(This is probably around the time he got injured.)


----------



## 57Chevy

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/03/toronto-chief-123.html#ixzz1772iEqhX



Quote from article:
"At least three G20-related lawsuits, with claims totalling $161 million, have been launched against the Toronto police and other officials."

Simply amazes me how these lawsuits come about.
Bust up the town, burn police cruisers, instigate trouble through blatent lawlessness, post it all on the tube, get a lawyer and sue because your toes were stepped upon ( "the anarchist retirement scheme" )
I suppose the next time they should allocate a few billion dollars to cover lawsuit costs.
What a joke


----------



## 57Chevy

Toronto police still seeking G20 suspects, chief apologizes to protester article link

TORONTO — Months after the G20 summit in Toronto, police are still seeking suspects believed to have caused damage around Canada's most populous city.

Toronto Police released Friday the photos of 18 outstanding suspects wanted in connection with the two-day summit that took place in late June.

More than 1,000 people were arrested during the G20 summit, making it the largest mass arrest in Canadian history. The majority of the arrests did not result in criminal charges.

An estimated $2 million in property damage was caused that weekend, as a small group of protesters dressed in black ran amok in Toronto's downtown core, smashing windows of businesses and burning police cruisers.

To date, police said 39 people — from Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia — have been arrested and charged with various offences.

Meanwhile, Toronto police chief William Blair apologized Friday for comments made earlier that inferred a YouTube video of protester-police clashes had been tampered with to remove the reason why force was used by some officers.

In an interview with CBC Radio on Monday, Blair suggested that five seconds of missing tape "may have been deliberate and done with an intent to mislead." But a statement released Friday said "there is no evidence to suggest this was done."

                              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## Jarnhamar

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> To be fair, savage beatings at the hands of LEO's is nothing new.


You're using fairness and savage beatings by members of the LEO community in the same sentence?   8)
No, police brutality is not new. But it's getting reported more and more. Their getting caught more and more.  In policing (Container correct me if I am wrong) trust, public image, accountability and honour are paramount to positive policing.



> From my perspective, what went on at the g20 was pretty tame as far as police brutality goes.



 As far as police crushing the heads of drunks or 15 year old girls? Ya it was pretty tame with the world  watching.  Without a doubt protesters and trouble makers went out of their way to run into the police to test them, like children testing their parents. I don't have sympathy for them getting their collective pee pee's slapped. I really like seeing trouble makers get beat down. I wish the police would have just obliterated the black bloc.





 The police crap the bed because they allowed their officers to look unprepared and especially uninformed.  I know the police can't afford to get into the trap of debating law and politics with some punkass protester but in a lot of the videos the cops sound clueless and out of their league.  I'm not sure if they weren't briefed properly or if they were told to just act vague.  Either way it looks like the police (higher ups) purposely withheld the finer details of that 5 meter crap. And now they look silly when they make statements like "police officers were rushing to arrest an armed criminal and that is why force was used against him" only to have the police chief retract the statements or try and drop a crappy excuse.  Like Container is mentioning.


We're not being disloyal to our brothers in blue when we point out if they screw up and say "you could do better", we do it to ourselves all the time.  

Would we feel different if police were accused of pooching things at a mass VA protest where bystanders supporting Vets got injured? Where we got arrested under a special law that the cop arresting you could barely explain?

I hate hippies and left wing "I know my rights" idiots. These protests were a huge waste of time and the only thing the media cared about, or that got aired, wasn't what they were protesting-just the violence. I'm biased I admit it. One side of me would have liked to see more water cannons used and some German landsharks.  Another side of me says 'What happpens if it's us'.


----------



## 57Chevy

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> trust, public image, accountability and honour are paramount to positive policing.



No one has to correct you on that 'master key' statement.


----------



## Container

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> In policing (Container correct me if I am wrong) trust, public image, accountability and honour are paramount to positive policing.



I would suggest effectiveness be added there too. But yeah I agree with you- and I think there is a politicization of policing that is causing a slip in quality. 

I had a conversation with some higher ups not to long ago about diversity in policing. My main point was I thought we were off base with the way we tried to get small ethnic communities to trust us. I pointed out the the NWMP received the trust and cooperation of natives by being honest, keeping their word, and being fair. Sure we should try and diversify the force- but as long as behind the scenes we're lacking the rest of the requirements it means nothing.

Middle eastern folks didnt move to Canada to see government agents act similar (although not to the same extent) no matter the color of their skin. If we are officers of honor we will attract the men and women of honor in their communities as well....

Id like a return to tough but fair. Smart and compassionate. None of this will happen until we restore the pride in the uniform (speaking from an RCMP point of view) where we couldnt stand to see an officer act contrary to the good reputation of the force. Im just day dreaming im sure.


----------



## mariomike

Container said:
			
		

> I would suggest effectiveness be added there too.



Based on what I remember, I think TPS is less effective now. Back then, to me, the unofficial motto seemed to be, "Give no slack and take no sh^t from anyone.  Confront and command.  Control the streets at all times.  Always be aggressive.  Stop crimes before they happen.  Seek them out.  Shake them down.  Make that arrest.  Never admit that the department has done anything wrong." 
From: "To Protect and To Serve: The LAPD's Century of War in the City of Dreams"

Our old Metro *force * certainly made a positive impression on me.


----------



## Container

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=3926521

Heres an interesting and I would hazard to say balanced article on use of force. In the middle the use of force trainer mentions how the large cops of the former generations had to use force less often. You hear it whispered about often in the messes of each police force. Kinda like MarioMike mentions

I agree with the sentiment. I am a large police officer. I dont have as many difficulties as some of my coworkers. When I use force its also more effective- when I put wrist locks and arm bars on people it goes quicker......once in a while though some guys want to "try me out". But its short lived- in my experience its been beneficial more often than its been a hinderance. 

ANYWAYS slightly off topic but it kinda explains some use of force stuff.


----------



## Jarnhamar

57Chevy said:
			
		

> No one has to correct you on that 'master key' statement.



Edit: Thanks!


----------



## Thompson_JM

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Can't tell if that's sarcasim or not but probably not since I'm usually really smart so thank you!



I'm thinking if he is throwing the " " in there then its a BZ for you.

When I watched the G20 stuff in Toronto, all I could think about was how it was probably 95% or more a white shirt screw up and not the guys on the ground... from what I know about the military in a large exercise (especially a reserve one where everyone is trying to make a name for themselves) Command and Control can be really hard... it looked like the officers were told to stand down on the Saturday, and then when the media tried to make them look like ineffective idiots, they said "Oh yeah? well, drop the hammer on Sunday!"

In my opinion, I thought that from what I saw the officers on the ground did a terrific job given all things considered... They were put in a total no-win situation right from the get go and made the best of it...

hey, major protests, yet no loss of life, or major injury... If all the hippies can come up with are a few bruises from resisting arrest and a couple of hurt feelings, well too bad so sad...

If an officer needs to be disciplined for wrongdoing during the summit, then so be it... but enough with the freekin SIU witch hunt!


----------



## mariomike

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> _"Blair also apologized to Adam Nobody, 27, the man arrested and injured during the protest at Toronto's Queen's Park, for the suggestion police officers were rushing to arrest an armed criminal and that is why force was used against him."_
> 
> Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/03/toronto-chief-123.html#ixzz1772iEqhX
> 
> Bwhahaha, poor guy. I can just imagine how his arrest went.
> 
> "Kid, I said tell me your name!"
> "Nobody."
> "Don't get smart with me you piss ant."
> "No really, it's Nobody."
> "I have had enough of this identify yourself!"
> "NO BOD EE. Do I need to spell it for you?"
> (This is probably around the time he got injured.)



December 7, 2010
Arrest video of Adam Nobody shot from a different angle than the Youtube video:
http://www.thestar.com/videozone/902663


----------



## Container

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/07/ombudsman-g20-security-rule-report856.html

A little more on the secret law.

Thi sentence in particular in revealing- 

"The ombudsman's report said the regulation gave police "extravagant" authority. And because it gave them such powers, the government should have done more to make sure police knew exactly what powers it gave them, the report said"


----------



## Container

mariomike said:
			
		

> December 7, 2010
> Arrest video of Adam Nobody shot from a different angle than the Youtube video:
> http://www.thestar.com/videozone/902663



See those baton strikes they've highlighted- when you are in a grouop trying to arrest a guy who has burried his arms under his body or is holding an officer or biting them (but it could again just be holding his arms underneath himself- there is no evidence otherwise, its just from experience) the baton is shoved into the space between ribs. Its hurts like the dickens and is meant to get the hands free and behind the back.

I thought in the other video there was a big fliurry of punches? This new video "obtained by the Star" doesnt show an assault. The other one maybe- I dont know the facts. But this one is normal accepted and taught response, I would suggest an everyday occurence somewhere in Canada.

The editorial attached to the video is an example of exactly why i cant read the Star. Its brutal.


----------



## mariomike

Container said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/12/07/ombudsman-g20-security-rule-report856.html
> 
> A little more on the secret law.
> 
> Thi sentence in particular in revealing-
> 
> "The ombudsman's report said the regulation gave police "extravagant" authority. And because it gave them such powers, the government should have done more to make sure police knew exactly what powers it gave them, the report said"



The Sun wrote an editorial on that today:
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2010/12/07/16464851.html
"G20 continues to be the nightmare that never ends. It’s $1 billion down the toilet, and the scarring continues."


The Sun's Joe Warmington had this to say today:
"Get back here Chief Bill Blair and face this G20 mess you created!
What kind of police chief is out of town on a day when the ombudsman puts the very credibility of his service on the line?
One that should be fired!":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2010/12/07/16465861.html

Edit to add
Globe and Mail
8 December, 2010
"Government should have been transparent about G20 law, McGuinty concedes:  Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has accepted responsibility for his government's role in handing special powers to police that violated people's civil liberties during the G20 summit last summer.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/government-should-have-been-transparent-about-g20-law-mcguinty-concedes/article1829762/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

That's because the only folks in Ontario who haven't tuned this clown of an Ombudsman out are the media..............and when you get down to it that's all the Office is, a glorified media-op.


----------



## Fusaki

I know I said that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I think it's important that we see the violence inherent in the system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY


----------



## PuckChaser

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I know I said that I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but I think it's important that we see the violence inherent in the system:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY



Well played.  ;D


----------



## mariomike

Sun:
Today's editorial:
"Harper dances away from G20: While his rendition of Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline may be the talk of Ottawa, Prime Minister Stephen Harper is probably still focused on his favourite Beatles tune -- With A Little Help From My Friends -- now that the billion-plus he blew on the G8/G20 summit has been wiped from the front pages by different cries of outrage.":
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2010/12/10/16505711.html


----------



## Jarnhamar

Why did Harper move the summit meeting to TO at the last minute?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Why did Harper move the summit meeting to TO at the last minute?




Principally PPP* in the PCO. It was a political (pork barrel variety) decision to have the G8 in Muskoka, but simple logistics dictated that _Deerhurst_, while 'nice' for the G8, could not accommodate the G20. The PCO is supposed to prevent these sorts of things, but ... 


----------
Piss Poor Planning


----------



## Old Sweat

Like it or not, the G20, because of its size and complexity, has to be in a major urban centre. This makes it an easy target for the protesting community, which escalates the security costs and the chances of something going all to s--t. This is something a reasonably intelligent second lieutenant would have figured out in about two weeks into the planning. That very highly paid public servants could not see the forest for the (Muskoka?) trees is disturbing.


----------



## mariomike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Principally PPP* in the PCO. It was a political (pork barrel variety) decision to have the G8 in Muskoka, but simple logistics dictated that _Deerhurst_, while 'nice' for the G8, could not accommodate the G20. The PCO is supposed to prevent these sorts of things, but ...
> 
> 
> ----------
> Piss Poor Planning



It was also recommended to Ottawa that, if they must move G20 to Toronto, that they have it at the CNE, rather than the Metro Convention Centre:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-950697.html#msg950697


----------



## George Wallace

mariomike said:
			
		

> It was also recommended to Ottawa that, if they must move G20 to Toronto, that they have it at the CNE, rather than the Metro Convention Centre:
> http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92495/post-950697.html#msg950697



The CNE Grounds would have been an even larger "Security Nightmare".  How would you secure the CNE Grounds and the various other locations where the Delegates were to sleep and have privacy, as well as all the families that accompanied them, not to mention all their staff, a requirement for a constant shuttle service between the many locations, etc.?  By far the Toronto Convention Centre is a world class facility with hotel and shopping all within its precincts.  The arguments for the CNE location were pretty much ruled out for these reasons.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Okay how's this?
Cops are bad.  We can't be trusted.  We are vicious thugs and can't be around normal people.  

So quite simply, don't invite the police to the next G8, 20, 31, OAS, OPEC whatever meeting.  Have the meeting, call if anything happens.  We'll be purely reactive and only roll out when somebody calls for a problem.  

Nothing could go wrong with that plan.


----------



## vonGarvin

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay how's this?
> Cops are bad.  We can't be trusted.  We are vicious thugs and can't be around normal people.
> 
> So quite simply, don't invite the police to the next G8, 20, 31, OAS, OPEC whatever meeting.  Have the meeting, call if anything happens.  We'll be purely reactive and only roll out when somebody calls for a problem.
> 
> Nothing could go wrong with that plan.


;D


----------



## Loachman

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay how's this?
> Cops are bad.  We can't be trusted.  We are vicious thugs and can't be around normal people.



I _*NEW*_ it. I could just tell the first time that I met you.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay how's this?
> Cops are bad.  We can't be trusted.  We are vicious thugs and can't be around normal people.
> 
> So quite simply, don't invite the police to the next G8, 20, 31, OAS, OPEC whatever meeting.  Have the meeting, call if anything happens.  We'll be purely reactive and only roll out when somebody calls for a problem.
> 
> Nothing could go wrong with that plan.


[size=8pt][size=10pt]*
POST OF THE WEEK!!*[/size][/size]

This needs to go viral........


----------



## mariomike

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Okay how's this?
> Cops are bad.  We can't be trusted.  We are vicious thugs and can't be around normal people.
> 
> So quite simply, don't invite the police to the next G8, 20, 31, OAS, OPEC whatever meeting.  Have the meeting, call if anything happens.  We'll be purely reactive and only roll out when somebody calls for a problem.
> 
> Nothing could go wrong with that plan.



Would out of town officers not miss the overtime if that were to happen? 
An ETF medic and a Toronto Police sergeant both told me they made over $4,000 OT., and are looking forward to the next one.


----------



## J.J

mariomike said:
			
		

> Would out of town officers not miss the overtime if that were to happen?
> An ETF medic and a Toronto Police sergeant both told me they made over $4,000 OT., and are looking forward to the next one.


 ???

(on the plus side there wasn't a link with your reply)


----------



## Container

So......

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/toronto-cop-faces-assault-with-a-weapon-charge-for-g20-arrest-of-protester-112255149.html

Charge laid against Toronto police officer from the video. I anticipate (having watched the video) that the police officer will be aquitted. And if he doesnt it will be appealed.

Alternatively, the officer will be told to "just plead guilty" to assault, and get a conditional discharghe so it all goes away.

Personally. I'd fight it. All just opinion of course. I'll be keeping an eye on this!


----------



## Thompson_JM

These Hippies are P***ing me off more and more every day.....

Seriously.... you think we live in a police state? Go protest in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Korea, et al.....


Then see how bad you have it.....

The Crap I'm seeing the Cops have to put up with is actually starting to make me rethink if I really want to deal with all that in a career in LE...

Please someone tell me it's actually worth it.....   :-\


----------



## Container

Warning- little off topic police recruitment, love me rant:

......... I havent quit yet. Does that count as an endorsement? I was talking to a year constable and I asked why he joined.
He said "Job security" he was a plumber prior, and he is going back- it isnt "worth it" to him. You cant really tell until you make it to your second year. Once the buzz wears off and the reality sets in. For some people its a calling that if you didnt go to work and eat crap sandwichs day after day (and it really is EVERYDAY) you would lose your mind. Somebody has to do it- the same thing that makes people sleep in a ditch, or run into a burning building.

It cant just be a job. Cause if you have that attitude you'll just wind up part of the problem we're having currently in the police world. 

Pluses- Ive seen this country top to bottom, east to west on the Queens dime. You see things no one else sees, you have a chance to try and help people out and you get paid well. And if you carry yourself with respect and treat others well- every once and a while you have a really good conversation with someone who lives such a different life that it REALLY gives you some perspective. 

And if your community sucks you know exactly who to blame. We get to do some very cool things too- Im always learning. And then there is the sweet nectar- adrenaline. Oh how I love you. I made some friends in the north as a police officer that I have a closer connection with than anybody on the planet. I buried friends, consoled coworkers after huge losses, drove their wives to the hospital in a blizzard to deliver the first child. Celebrated birthdays, Christmas, and other holidays in uniform....once chased a man for 6 km's in a foot chase across tundra until we got in a huge fight on a pile of caribou bones. When I got on top of him he said "What the hell are you doing here?" to which I replied, "Im a mountie. And youre under arrest". (I was super proud of how clever it sounded- I was like Benton Fraser!) Chased polar bears on a skidoo shooting them with rubber bullets.....

Who gets to do that stuff? Only some of us. But then there are other things- I flew into a town and had a 12 year old hang himself on my house, having the only porch in town with the right requirements, and going outside because something is slamming against my house. Interviewed children with STD's, did chest compressions on a man who was shot in the box of a truck driving to the hospital. Watched a few people stick rifles in their mouthes. You see good people at their worst and no one says thank you- you were never fast enough, or you are stupid, lazy, or corrupt. You go to court and a lawyer calls you a liar until he feels like he has made his point. Thats universal- but there are neat things city or mountie and no two careers are the same.

So yeah....for some its worth it. Not everyone. Just like the CF- if everyone could do it it wouldnt be for me. I've had really good luck meeting only the good ones in my CF days and in my policing career. I know the "others" are out there. But Im fortunate so far- and I promise you that the "bad ones" wont get a pass when I do meet them.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Container said:
			
		

> Warning- little off topic police recruitment, love me rant:
> 
> ....once chased a man for 6 km's in a foot chase across tundra until we got in a huge fight on a pile of caribou bones. When I got on top of him he said "What the hell are you doing here?" to which I replied, "Im a mountie. And youre under arrest". (I was super proud of how clever it sounded- I was like Benton Fraser!) Chased polar bears on a skidoo shooting them with rubber bullets.....








I was gonna say.... That sounds like something straight from Due South! lol

Thanks for putting it back in perspective Container.   

Sounds like it's a lot of the same things I love about the CF....  Maybe it's time to add the Queens Cowboys to the list of services to apply for....  8)


----------



## Container

We're in the middle of a "organizational shift". We're having numerous "issues"- most of them wearing uniforms, but give it a few years and we'll figure it out. Until then the rest of us are just doing our jobs. Its a hard time to be a mountie right now. But every organization hits these growth periods. 

We can always use ex-CF'ers with integrity! Only two of us from my troop went to the territories - NWT and Nunavut, both ex-cf, and we loved it. If those stories sound interesting its the tip of the iceberg- seriously. But there are interesting stories that come from everywhere.

It is a good time to apply however. So if you want to be part of changes- sign up!


----------



## The Bread Guy

*<foreign tangent>*
And for those who still think "anarchists" are just young revolutionaries punks busting some windows to stick it to "the man", check this out....


> An Italian anarchist group claimed responsibility for parcel bombs on Thursday that wounded two people at the Swiss and Chilean embassies in Rome, a reminder of Europe's home-grown threats at a time of political instability.
> 
> A Swiss man was seriously wounded and rushed to hospital. An employee at the Chilean embassy was less seriously hurt. A note was found stuck to his clothing, claiming responsibility for the attack on behalf of the FAI, or Informal Anarchist Federation.
> 
> "We have decided to make our voice heard with words and with facts, we will destroy the system of dominance, long live the FAI, long-live Anarchy," said the note, written in Italian, which was released in the evening by the police.
> 
> The incidents bore similarities to an episode in Greece last month in which far-left militants sent parcel bombs to foreign governments abroad and to embassies in Athens.
> 
> The note was signed by the "Lambros Fountas revolutionary cell" of the FAI, named for a Greek anarchist killed in a clash with Athens police in March. It also made reference to anarchist movements in Chile, Mexico, Spain and Argentina.
> 
> "Greece, Italy and Spain have seen the presence of anarcho-insurrectionalist groups that are tightly linked," Italy's Interior Minister Roberto Maroni said before the note was found. "They are very violent."
> 
> The FAI is well known to Italian authorities. Intelligence services said in a report to parliament last year that it was "the main national terrorist threat of an anarchist-insurrectionalist type." ....


*</foreign tangent>*


----------



## The Bread Guy

Artist cleared of all weapons charges in G20 case
ANNA MEHLER PAPERNY, Globe and Mail Update, Published Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2011
Article link
<blockquote>Byron Sonne and Kristen Peterson were both in court again Wednesday – their legal fates pulling the husband and wife once again in opposite directions.

Ms. Peterson, a visual artist known for playing with perspective and perceptions of space, saw all her charges dropped. She and her husband both were charged with collecting the materials used to make triacetone triperoxide – the potent explosive made notorious for its use in terrorist attacks – and possession of dangerous weapons. Mr. Sonne was also charged with mischief and two rare charges of intimidating members of the justice system.

Ms. Peterson and her parents were “thrilled” at the news she can return to normalcy, said lawyer Brian Heller.

Meanwhile, Mr. Sonne, a computer expert whose ties run deep in Toronto’s hacker community, had his first day of preliminary hearing after spending months in police custody.

Both were arrested within days of each other at their million-dollar Forest Hill home in June, and accused of planning what was to be an ambitious attack in connection with the G20 summit.

As Ms. Peterson went free, with Crown attorneys saying there’s no reasonable prospect of conviction, legal teams were arguing both sides of Mr. Sonne’s case. The preliminary hearing is under a publication ban ....</blockquote>
More on link


----------



## Rifleman62

Three Chapters. Chapter three is Reserve Pension
*
2011 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada*

http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/med_fs_e_35004.html

The 2011 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada will be tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday, 5 April 2011. The following is a brief description of the chapters contained in the Report.

Chapter 1—*Expenditures for the 2010 G8 and G20 Summits.* The chapter looks at the development of financial plans and budgets, funding requests, and recording of expenditures for the G8 and G20 summits. It also examines whether the amounts spent were used for the intended purposes—for security, policing, organizing, and hosting of the summits. The audit did not examine the effectiveness of the summits or the appropriateness of the level of security or hosting provided. Nor did it question the merit of goods and services identified by summit planners as requirements.

Chapter 2—*G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund*. The host region for the June 2010 G8 Summit received $50 million in federal funding under the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund. The purpose was to fund projects sponsored through municipalities or the province that would help the region prepare for the 2010 G8 Summit, enhance local infrastructure, and showcase the natural beauty of the area for foreign dignitaries and media. The chapter looks at how the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund was established, how it was funded, and how projects were selected. The audit did not examine the effectiveness of projects or the processes used by other government partners to assess projects and put them forward for approval.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Mods - if you think this is better in the election thread, feel free to move it.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> *2011 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada*
> 
> http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/med_fs_e_35004.html
> 
> The 2011 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada will be tabled in the House of Commons on Tuesday, 5 April 2011. The following is a brief description of the chapters contained in the Report.
> 
> Chapter 1—*Expenditures for the 2010 G8 and G20 Summits.* The chapter looks at the development of financial plans and budgets, funding requests, and recording of expenditures for the G8 and G20 summits. It also examines whether the amounts spent were used for the intended purposes—for security, policing, organizing, and hosting of the summits. The audit did not examine the effectiveness of the summits or the appropriateness of the level of security or hosting provided. Nor did it question the merit of goods and services identified by summit planners as requirements.
> 
> Chapter 2—*G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund*. The host region for the June 2010 G8 Summit received $50 million in federal funding under the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund. The purpose was to fund projects sponsored through municipalities or the province that would help the region prepare for the 2010 G8 Summit, enhance local infrastructure, and showcase the natural beauty of the area for foreign dignitaries and media. The chapter looks at how the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund was established, how it was funded, and how projects were selected. The audit did not examine the effectiveness of projects or the processes used by other government partners to assess projects and put them forward for approval.



Just in time for the election, something in one of the drafts caught The Canadian Press' - and others' - eyes:


> The Harper government misinformed Parliament to win approval for a $50-million G8 fund that lavished money on dubious projects in a Conservative riding, the auditor general has concluded.
> 
> And she suggests the process by which the funding was approved may have been illegal.
> 
> The findings are contained in the draft of a confidential report Sheila Fraser was to have tabled in Parliament on April 5. The report analyzed the $1-billion cost of staging last June's G8 summit in Ontario cottage country and a subsequent gathering of G20 leaders in downtown Toronto.
> 
> It was put on ice when the Harper government was defeated and is not due to be released until sometime after the May 2 election. However, *a Jan. 13 draft of the chapter on the G8 legacy infrastructure fund was obtained by a supporter of an opposition party and shown to The Canadian Press* .... The Canadian Press was not given access to the entire report on the $1 billion in G8 and G20 spending, and Fraser's conclusions on overall spending were not available ....


Note how CBC's latest earlier version of this story as of this post (also attached if link doesn't work) doesn't say how CP saw the report :tsktsk:

_- edited to add "earlier" because CBC story does now include source - _


----------



## The Bread Guy

And here's what the A-G has to say:


> We will not release or comment on our audit report on the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund. Under the Auditor General Act, we can only present reports when Parliament is sitting. The Office of the Auditor General of Canada remains the custodian of its reports until they are presented to the Speaker of the House of Commons for tabling.
> 
> I strongly caution the public to wait until our final report on the G8 Legacy Infrastructure Fund has been tabled in Parliament and made public.
> 
> We work very hard to keep our reports confidential before they are tabled. There are indications that an early draft of this report may have been released by someone outside our Office. Our normal audit process requires that we share early drafts of our reports with government departments. We do this so they can validate the facts on which our conclusions are based, provide any additional relevant information, and so they can prepare responses to our recommendations. Sometimes during the process of fact validation, additional information is brought to our attention. Only the final report that is tabled in Parliament represents our audit findings and conclusions.


----------



## PuckChaser

Sounds like a partisan member of the AG staff got ahold of this and leaked it. Whoever did that should be fired.


----------



## OldSolduer

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sounds like a partisan member of the AG staff got ahold of this and leaked it. Whoever did that should be fired.



Or condemned to count trees in Northern Manitoba.


----------



## Thompson_JM

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Or condemned to count trees in Northern Manitoba.



At half of what his or her current pay is....


----------



## larry Strong

Tommy Trucker said:
			
		

> At half of what his or her current pay is....


and no bug juice ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Note how CBC's latest version of this story as of this post (also attached if link doesn't work) doesn't say how CP saw the report :tsktsk:


*I stand corrected:*  the latest version DOES include this tidbit of important information (newest version attached):


> .... a Jan. 13 draft of the chapter on the G8 legacy infrastructure fund was obtained by a supporter of an opposition party and shown to The Canadian Press ....


----------



## OldSolduer

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> and no bug juice ;D



Or condemned to sit next to this guy...forever


----------



## The Bread Guy

from The Canadian Press:


> The Toronto G20 summit struck out big time with the city's baseball team, prompting the Blue Jays to seek almost half a million dollars in compensation from the federal government.
> 
> The Jays filed a claim for $470,854 after the high-level, high-security meetings forced the team to shift a series of games to Philadelphia, records obtained by The Canadian Press show.
> 
> The move spoiled the keenly anticipated appearance of ace Philadelphia pitcher Roy Halladay, whom the Jays traded to the Phillies during the off-season.
> 
> Downtown Toronto became a high-security zone late last June when leaders of the G20 countries met for talks, disrupting many popular events at the height of tourist season.
> 
> "It was, to put it mildly, a huge inconvenience," said Patrick Taylor, executive producer of Toronto's jazz festival, which has claimed $235,155 in compensation.
> 
> The festival experienced lost ticket, food and beverage sales, and spent additional money on security as demonstrators descended on the city, Taylor said. A lucrative sponsorship arrangement with a large hotel also evaporated because the rooms were needed for G20 summit participants.
> 
> Porter Airlines, which operates from a downtown airport, topped the list of claimants, seeking more than $1,110,411, according to the records released under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> The owners of the Toronto-Dominion Bank Tower requested $629,375, and the National Ballet of Canada applied for $355,265 because the summit put a crimp in audience numbers.
> 
> *Not far away at the Zanzibar Tavern on Yonge St., lithe dancers of the more exotic variety apparently saw fewer patrons as well, prompting a claim of $10,832 *....


----------



## The Bread Guy

> *The bill for security at last summer's G8 and G20 summits could have been much lower if the government had used more military personnel instead of police officers, Canada's parliamentary budget officer says.
> *
> Kevin Page's comments on Monday came in response to a CBC/Radio-Canada report that revealed the RCMP contracted hundreds of police officers from across the country to travel to Ontario for the two summits, and paid millions in premiums to them for working on days off or during vacations.
> 
> *Page also cited the decision to host the dual summits at separate venues in Toronto and the Muskoka region as the main reason why the final price tag is expected to exceed more than $1 billion.*
> 
> "Could we have saved money? Yes. If the decision was made that we could have had one venue as opposed to two, we could have reduced those costs quite significantly," Page said Monday.
> 
> "If we were comfortable having more of a military presence, as opposed to an RCMP presence, we might have been able to save costs further." ....


More on CBC.ca here.


----------



## mariomike

More on the above:
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/05/31/three-smalltown-cops-rake-in-38gs-for-g20
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/05/29/g20-police-bonus-pay.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Life after the G20 protests
> by Nicholas Köhler and Stephanie Findlay on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 9:00am
> LINK
> *Two activists who spent 24 days in custody are out and talking—and the police are still listening*
> .... during an interview with Maclean’s at (Alex) Hundert’s mother’s home in Toronto’s Earls­court district, where (Leah) Henderson is under house arrest, they present themselves as polite and articulate—social justice activists whose deep concern with both Aboriginal self-determination and the environment approaches the religious. With their chunky black spectacles, tattoos and long hair—his is worn in a ponytail—they accept the prospect of more jail time with almost martyr-like resignation. So severe is their anti-colonialist philosophy that they call themselves “settlers.” Such sympathy with militant First Nations groups is a common thread among Canada’s leftist radicals ....



A little follow-up, from Postmedia News:


> Six people pleaded guilty Tuesday to counselling others to commit mischief in relation to last summer's G20 summit in Toronto, which saw a small group of protesters wreak havoc on downtown streets.
> 
> The six were part of a group of 17 previously charged with conspiracy in relation to the 2010 world leaders' summit.
> 
> Among those who pleaded guilty were *Leah Henderson*, Peter Hopperton, Erik Lankin and Adam Lewis.
> 
> *Alex Hundert* and Amanda Hiscocks also pleaded guilty to an additional charge of counselling others to obstruct police.
> 
> According to agreed statements of fact read out in court, two undercover Ontario Provincial Police officers attended meetings of "anarchist groups" that were planning G20 protest actions. During those meetings, the six individuals were identified as having encouraged others to commit criminal acts, including property damage.
> 
> Hundert and Hiscocks also encouraged others to obstruct police, the statements note.
> 
> Hundert, for example, taught "de-arresting" strategies to interfere in the arrest process.
> 
> The statements cite no evidence that anyone involved in the Black Bloc G20 riots did so as a result of counselling by any of the six ....


If you're interested, the folks have also issued a collective statement (attached, lest we bring traffic to the Conspire to Resist page).


----------



## The Bread Guy

An interesting overview of the monitoring of the groups - including a media outlet sharing (at least some of) the documents they obtained through ATIP:


> .... The two undercover officers at the core of the Crown's case were just a small part of a Canada-wide operation to spy on activist groups in the lead-up to the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, the G20 summit in Toronto and the G8 meeting in Huntsville, Ont.
> 
> RCMP records obtained under freedom of information legislation reveal that at least 12 undercover officers infiltrated groups. Organizations in Vancouver, the southern Ontario cities of Guelph and Kitchener-Waterloo, Toronto and Montreal were scrutinized.
> 
> In all, the RCMP-led joint intelligence group — a conglomeration of federal, provincial and municipal police tasked with G8/G20 reconnaissance — employed more than 500 people at its peak, the records show. The group ran undercover operations, recruited confidential informants and liaised with domestic and foreign governments, law enforcement agencies and even corporations.
> 
> The JIG's targets included activists protesting the Olympics, the migrant-justice group No One Is Illegal, Southern Ontario Anarchist Resistance and Greenpeace.
> 
> "The 2010 G8 summit in Huntsville ... will likely be subject to actions taken by criminal extremists motivated by a variety of radical ideologies," reads a JIG report from June 2009, before the G20 summit was scheduled, that sets out the intelligence group's mission. "These ideologies may include variants of anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism, nihilism, socialism and/or communism.
> 
> "The important commonality is that these ideologies ... place these individuals and/or organizations at odds with the status quo and the current distribution of power in society." ....


CBC.ca, 22 Nov 11

Interesting bit fro the story:


> .... Earlier this fall, (one of the undercover officers) told the court about how he attended a meeting prior to the Toronto summit. There, a protest-planning group that included several of the 17 main G20 defendants was discussing whether to lend their support to a First Nations rally.
> 
> Adam Lewis, one of the 17 accused conspirators in the G20 case, interjected, “Kill whitey!” The group chuckled. Lewis, like all but one of his co-accused, is white.
> 
> When a Crown lawyer asked the officer what he thought Lewis meant, Showan said in complete seriousness, to "kill white people."
> 
> *"Deliberately or accidentally, the undercover officers misinterpreted hyperbolic jokes as literal statements of belief,"* said Kalin Stacey, a community organizer, friend and supporter of the defendants ....


I'm guessing they wouldn't worry, then, about similar statements made about their groups or individuals, then?  Or are those to be taken more seriously than other "misinterpreted hyperbolic jokes"?

More from the documents themselves:
G8 summit intelligence report
RCMP's post-G20 internal review


----------



## The Bread Guy

One more file closed....


> A G20 protest organizer was sent to jail for 10 months at a noisy sentencing hearing Tuesday.
> 
> Supporters packed a suburban Toronto courtroom as Leah Henderson, 27, was sentenced for encouraging vandalism at the summit in June of last year.
> 
> Like other organizers prosecuted in the wake of the summit, Ms. Henderson was unrepentant as she addressed the court.
> 
> “All you need to know about me is that I am a person of conscience. I came here from a place of morality. I stand here guilty of breaking your laws, not the laws of justice,” she said. “I submit to your jails because you hold the weapons, but that will not always be so.”
> 
> Court heard that Ms. Henderson, a native of Alberta, moved to Toronto in recent years and quickly became involved in various activist causes. She identifies as an anarchist.
> 
> Crown attorney Jason Miller said Ms. Henderson is a licensed paralegal and a talented mediator, and that she has no criminal record.
> 
> “She has a degree of maturity that is beyond that of the others we have dealt with,” he said. “This cuts both ways: Ms. Henderson ought to have known better.”
> 
> Mr. Miller argued that jail time was necessary to deter others in future from encouraging protest vandalism, and that Ms. Henderson’s politics were irrelevant to the case ....


_Globe & Mail_, 20 Dec 11


----------



## vonGarvin

> “All you need to know about me is that I am a person of conscience. I came here from a place of morality. I stand here guilty of breaking your laws, not the laws of justice,” she said. “I submit to your jails because you hold the weapons, *but that will not always be so*.”


Oh really?


----------



## Journeyman

> “All you need to know about me is that I am a person of conscience. I came here from a place of morality. I stand here guilty of breaking your laws, not the laws of justice,” she said. “I submit to your jails because you hold the weapons, but that will not always be so.”


She's right. I know all I need to know about her.   :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Nelson Mandela, she ain't....


----------



## ModlrMike

As an anarchist and someone who doesn't believe she's bound by the rules of our society, she'll have much in common with her new house mates.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As an anarchist and someone who doesn't believe she's bound by the rules of our society, she'll have much in common with her new house mates.



I'm sure her moral superiority, legal posturing and sharp wit intelligence will persevere above the arguments, platitudes and pleas of all her new friends that want to make her their new tattooed bitch.


----------



## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm sure her moral superiority, legal posturing and sharp wit intelligence will persevere above the arguments, platitudes and pleas of all her new friends that want to make her their new tattooed *****.




Yes I'm sure it will. I have seen female inmates....and they are worse than men. God (or the higher power if there is one) may need to intervene - or the officers will toss her in seg.


----------



## mariomike

Feb 13 2012
"Nearly two years after the G20 summit, more than 100 senior Toronto police officers are still waiting for $387,000 in overtime pay and benefits — but nobody is willing to foot the bill.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1130862--weird-situation-preventing-senior-police-from-collecting-g20-overtime-pay?bn=1


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## The Bread Guy

Highlights mine....





> WWII and Vietnam-era warfare training and bomb-making reports were among the files found on the so-called “G20 geek’s’’ seized computer, the man’s Toronto trial heard Monday.
> 
> Police arrested 39-year-old Byron Sonne on June 22, 2010, and later charged him with plotting to bomb the meeting of world leaders that year. His computer was seized after a warrant was obtained to search his home. Police also obtained chemicals, diagrams and materials they allege Sonne planned to use to make a bomb.
> 
> *The hobby chemist and computer hacker who faces five charges, including possession of an explosive device and inciting others to commit an indictable offence, has admitted to police in recorded interviews available online that he did possess materials that could be used to make explosives — but that he had not combined them.*
> 
> During Sonne’s trial, which resumed Monday in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Det. Const. David Ouellette, a Toronto police officer seconded to the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team, testified about an Internet search conducted on Sonne’s computer by the RCMP.
> 
> Among the many PDF documents police found was one titled “Unconventional Warfare Devices and Techniques,’’ a 1960s-era U.S. Army technical manual. The file first appeared on Sonne’s computer on Jan. 5, 2009, court heard.
> 
> Another, titled “Improvised Munitions Handbook,” showed up on Sonne’s computer, on the same date. It’s a military manual that discusses potassium nitrate, launchers, and other explosive devices, and includes “schematics on how to make an improvised device using materials that are sometimes commonly accessible,’’ Ouellette told the trial.
> 
> Sonne spent nearly 11 months in pre-trial custody — longer than any other G20 accused — before being released on bail last May ....


_Toronto Star_, 19 Mar 12


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## The Bread Guy

Not guilty on all remaining counts.....


> Byron Sonne, the so-called “G20 geek” accused of plotting to bomb the 2010 summit of world leaders in downtown Toronto two years ago, was found not guilty Tuesday of all charges.
> 
> Sonne’s verdict comes nearly two years after the 39-year-old Internet security expert was arrested on June 22, 2010, as the first high-profile detention of the chaotic G20 weekend.
> 
> Arguably the most compelling of all the G20 accused, Sonne — a computer hacker from Forrest Hill — seemed an unlikely terrorist when he was pulled off a Bathurst St. bus and accused of assembling explosives in his basement laboratory while inciting others through social media to disrupt the G20 security apparatus.
> 
> He was first charged with six offences, including mischief, weapons possession and intimidating justice officials. But by the time the case reached trial, most of the charges were dropped and Sonne was left with four counts of possessing explosive materials and one count of “counseling the commission of mischief not committed.” ....


_Toronto Star_, 15 May 12 - more here (Google News)


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## The Bread Guy

In case you're interested, here's the judge's decision on Sonne
http://bit.ly/LkbhDZ


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## The Bread Guy

One more spending a bit of time as a guest of the state:





> A man who has been described by police as a ringleader in a conspiracy to cause destruction and damage during the G20 protests accepts that he deserves to be in prison but claims he was “bullied into a deal” and accuses the justice system of being “coercive” and “used as a weapon.”
> 
> Alex Hundert was sentenced to 13.5 months Tuesday at the Ontario Court of Justice on Finch Ave. W. He pleaded guilty in November 2011 to counselling others to commit mischief to property and obstruct police during the summit in June of 2010.
> 
> Hundert, dressed in grey jeans, a black T-shirt and a denim jacket, used his opportunity to speak at Tuesday’s sentencing hearing to launch into a lengthy attack. The back-and-forth dialogue that ensued with Judge Lloyd Budzinski included references to the Arab spring and Stalinist Russia and a threat to fire defence lawyer John Norris.
> 
> An agreed statement of facts was presented in court in November in which Hundert admitted creating a “target list” for protesters, including banks and political offices. He also trained other protesters to “de-arrest” people, according to the statement.
> 
> Hundert said he waived his right to a trial after he was “bullied into a deal” and that his lawyer was acting within the confines of a flawed system. The judge suggested several times that Hundert speak to his lawyer about these issues before the sentence was issued. Hundert said he wanted to speak directly to the judge and threatened to fire Mr. Norris if that’s what it would take for the judge to listen ....


_National Post_, 26 Jun 12

More in the open letter from Hundert attached - wouldn't want to boost the rabble.ca hit count, would we?


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## Jarnhamar

Rabble.ca? Shouldn't they be bitching about how skin coloured bandaids are racist or something?


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## The Bread Guy

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Rabble.ca? Shouldn't they be bitching about how skin coloured bandaids are racist or something?


 :goodpost:


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## Edward Campbell

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> More in the open letter from Hundert attached - wouldn't want to boost the rabble.ca hit count, would we?




What awful, sophomoric juvenile drivel!


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## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> What awful, sophomoric juvenile drivel!


What can we expect, I guess, from (in the words of the Toronto Star) a "hobby chemist"?


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## The Bread Guy

I couldn't make this one up (courtesy of The Canadian Press):





> Women claiming to have been profiled because of their hairy legs are among a group of seven people planning to serve a $1.4-million claim against police on Wednesday arising out of the violence-marred G20 summit two years ago.
> 
> The group from Hamilton alleges the police wrongfully arrested them on June 27, 2010 — a day after vandals went on a rampage in downtown Toronto — as they emerged from a Yonge Street restaurant, their lawyer said.
> 
> They allege they were kept for hours in handcuffs, then held for more than 24 hours at a makeshift detention centre in the city's east end before being released without charge. One of the plaintiffs also alleges she was sexually assaulted during a roadside strip search.
> 
> None of the claims has been proven or tested in any court.
> 
> In a statement, lawyer Davin Charney said one of the seven asked the reason for their arrest and an officer told them police "would make one up."
> 
> Charney said some of the plaintiffs believed they were profiled for arrest because of their appearance, which included having hairy legs.
> 
> According to the lawyer, the provincial police watchdog — the Ontario Independent Police Review Director — found an officer wrote in his arrest notes that "all parties appear to be protesters; back packs; clothing and females all have hairy legs." ....


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## Scott

To anyone unfortunate enough to ahve read maikeru's posts and actually wasted time clicking the links...it's been binned. No need for the troops to get restless over what obviously, judging by some of his footprint elsewhere in the internet, is someone whose meds ran out recently, or the WiFi signal couldn't penetrate the rubber room and now that he's out he just has a a lot to say.


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## maikeru333

There might be some craziness here: REMOVEinner5pac3.blogspot.com/2013/01/some-educational-posts-on-milnet-forums.html , but on Scott's suggestion, I would like to start fresh instead.  Perhaps posting one or a few links at a time, rathern than so many, and of such a length, that people cannot really be expected to respond knowledgeably about their reactions and interpretations, perceived veracity or lack thereof, or other criticisms, etc.

So there is a blog post by Michael Parenti which goes into a list of 'imperial wars' and their associated massacres, and states the problem is systemic and intentional/ structural, not accidental or outlier 'failures' or a system which is otherwise working mostly for the public good.  It is very well referenced, but might cut like a knife in the heart.  It is not gentle.

there is a spoof about hilary clinton talking about foreign affairs with a 'what she really means' subtitles that is pretty funny on grtv

there is another grtv with an fbi whistleblower who basically wrote a book on her time with the fbi, and explains and destroys certain myths, talks about some of the corruption she experiences/ was aware of, things like they never stopped working with the 'mujahedeen', and there never was any 'al qaida', which she explained as a 'tactic' although i have no idea what that is, i heard it meant 'database' in arabic and that that was where it came from, as a cia creation etc  i could probably link the documentary 'zero' as well, which busts some related myths

so are any of these links interesting sounding enough to post here?  Relevant to delving into the 'activist' mindset of why people here would be railing at the evils of the military (bradley manning and julian assange aside)

There are facebook groups like 'occupy marines', veteran's groups fighting against the horrible treatment canadian vets are getting/ lack of support of ptsd etc with suicide in the US surpassing all combat deaths from iraq and afganistan, there is the police reformer group re-sergeance alliance (made of many police sergeants) trying to get the unbelievable amount of corruption that police are witnessing in BC police forces dealt with ... that was why i linked to the blog about the inquiry, and the evidence the police knew about the hell's angel's involvement in the picton murders, but intentionally suppressed/ denied that information, charging people for distributing the video of the young girl that was gang raped and a prince ruppert party, but dropping the charges on the people who actually did it (ie suppress the evidence and public knowledge, ignore the actual abuse victims and abusers strategy, ie suppress public response and awareness of the level of harm and corruption by covering it up, dealing with symptoms not causes)

I'm rambling.  By the way, Scott was right, I do have mental health issues; that has even been used by friends of mine to dismiss my point of view without even considering or hearing evidence for such views.  I suppose you could all do the same.  On the other hand, ptsd is considered a mental health issue, isn't it?  There is a ted talk called 'on being wrong' and it says that most people don't know when they are wrong - me and you both - and that the first response is usually to assume, if people just had the information, they would realize (ignorance), then it is usually that the other is incompetant/ crazy, and the final one is that they are 'evil' and that's why people's views are different.  Thought these are possible, I think more likely true is that there are distortions on both sides, based on bias, and the media and ideas that people are surrounded with, the 'operational attitude' people need to work with on a daily basis, etc, ie our beliefs are not only designed to be about actual 'truth', they are also designed around 'functionality' - do they keep you alive/ able to function under the circumstances you are presented with regularly?

Anyways I don't want to rant too much.  This cilp is less controversial and I think something we are more likely to agree on parts of.  I can skirt the issue and post less 'inflammatory' posts that illustrate the idea that i think people are NOT getting in this forum from the latest posts i read, about why 1000's of people went to protest the g8-g20 in the first place (which was conveniently largely ignored by the mainstream media once they had more drama-porn to sell the public).

Like I told Scott, I'm basically here to subvert you all against the ___1%___ and to hopefully shed some light on the folks pulling the strings in some of the world events that we see, partly because it seems like the idle no more movement might be being set up to be a trigger point for a crack down on protesting/ US military intervention in Canada via our mutual aid pact ... the ndaa act gives the military in the US powers of INDEFINITE arrest and detention without trial or attorney on US citizens, which some 'left wing nuts' are protesting south of the border by suing the government... I think today is the day this goes to court actually.

Some say the current US leadership is 'restructuring leadership' in their military, with 'willingness to fire on US civilians' being one of the criteria for remaining.

So that is what I see.  and interpret.  i could be paranoid.  unfortunately, being paranoid doesn't exclude your fears from being true, either.  Perhaps a critical second opinion (or 10) is required lol.

charles eisenstein, sacred economics 12 min   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEZkQv25uEs

I'm sure some people don't like the idea of people with different opinions coming to this forum at all, and may rate accordingly, but for those interested in conversation, suggestions about where to take this 'conversation' and what is worth focusing on, are welcome.

I intend to check back here in the next few days.

Michael


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## Scott

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> *Like I told Scott, I'm basically here to subvert you all against the ___1%___ *



And like I told you, that's going to go over like a lead balloon. I also told you that you have a rather smug self assuredness about you, one that I am sure is going to get the attention you so desperately seek. I'm just not sure how long it's going to last.

Folks, keep it within the guidelines when dealing with our enlightened friend.


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## 57Chevy

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> There might be some craziness here



I think there is, just like there is on your other post over here:

>>>>>> « Reply #57  { http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108642/post-1206843/topicseen.html#msg1206843 }

BTW I concur with this;


			
				Container said:
			
		

> You are so far out of your lane it isnt even funny.



Please go get a lot of rest now.


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## The Bread Guy

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> .... I'm rambling ....


Yes.  Yes you are.


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## Scott

It really warms my heart to see the MilPoints feature, and the 5% warning box, work so well.


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## Pandora114

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I couldn't make this one up (courtesy of The Canadian Press):



0_0  profiled because of hairy legs?  crap!  better get my ass in the shower...

was planning on going to PT this morning but removing my winter insulation so I don't get arrested should come first.


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## George Wallace

maikeru333 said:
			
		

> Like I told Scott, I'm basically here to subvert you all against the ___1%___ and to hopefully shed some light on the folks pulling the strings in some of the world events that we see, partly because it seems like the idle no more movement might be being set up to be a trigger point for a crack down on protesting/ US military intervention in Canada via our mutual aid pact ...




[In the best Bill Cosby playing Noah answering to God voice] RIGHT! [/end Bill Cosby voice]


What has me wondering, is how many of the Idle No More aboriginal Chiefs are in that 1%.......but your conspiracies likely only involve us racist WASPs or WASP Wannabes.   :


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## Journeyman

I think he should be un-muted and given his own thread in which to ramble to his heart's -- and med's -- content. 

He's a poster-boy for the "rebel without a clue" types, showing their true conspiratorial, gov't-oppressed colours.

     op:


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## cupper

Meds Dude.

They have some good ones now. 

Makes the voices go away.

Get some.


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## The Bread Guy

A couple of more dealt with ....


> Two more Toronto G20 vandals pleaded guilty Friday to participating in the massive 2010 riots, and were sentenced to six months in prison.
> 
> In Superior Court in Montreal, Guillaume Constantineau and Youri Couture pleaded guilty to assaulting a peace officer, wearing a disguise with intent to commit an indictable offence and common nuisance.
> 
> The two men were among a contingent of violent summit protesters who adopted the “Black Bloc” tactic, wearing black clothing and bandannas to shield their faces while smashing property in the downtown core.
> 
> “The rioting and the damage that ensued immobilized the downtown core, terrifying both residents and visitors,” noted an agreed statement of facts entered in court Friday. “Peaceful protest voices were drowned out as a result of the unprecedented violence that weekend.”
> 
> Photo and video evidence pinpointed Constantineau and Couture as participants in a march toward Queen Street West and John Street, where a confrontation with police ensued.
> 
> Couture was captured on camera throwing a long wooden pole into a line of police officers; it struck a female officer in the shoulder. Constantineau, meanwhile, hit an officer on the head with a flagpole, according to the agreed statement of facts  ....


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## mariomike

Top court dismisses police attempt to appeal G20 class-action approval
http://www.680news.com/2016/11/10/top-court-dismisses-police-attempt-appeal-g20-class-action-approval/
Two class-action lawsuits arising out of the chaotic Toronto G20 summit more than six years ago appear destined for trial after the country’s highest court refused on Thursday to get involved.

Toronto’s police authorities had wanted the Supreme Court of Canada to stop the legal actions in their tracks. The court, however, declined. It also ordered the police services to pay costs of the appeal.

Last year, a tribunal convicted Toronto police Supt. Mark Fenton of misconduct for ordering the mass arrests. He was given a formal reprimand and docked 30 days’ vacation. Fenton is appealing.


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## mariomike

Ten years later, and we are still paying for it. In today's news,

$16.5M settlement paid out by Toronto taxpayers over the mass arrest in August 2010 G20.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/g20-toronto-police-regret-1.5767958


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## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> Ten years later, and we are still paying for it. In today's news,
> 
> $16.5M settlement paid out by Toronto taxpayers over the mass arrest in August 2010 G20.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/g20-toronto-police-regret-1.5767958



We could have had an additional 165 gazebos.


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