# Fighting Back



## NoMoreGames (22 Jul 2016)

Good day all,

     I'm just going to get straight to the point. I am sick and tired of all these MIR Commandos sitting around looking at the walls, the floor or nose deep on face book, while everyone around them works. Can't ask them to do anything cause they just pull out a chit or call the MIR and/or claim mental stress. They use the mental stress line because they know, as soon as the MIR hears it, they have to see them right away. Yet they talk like they are the hardest workers in the unit. Lets not forget the 2 sick days a month, random MIR apt, and any other day they need off ( pick my buddy up at the airport, bank apt, helping someone move) the list is endless. Can't do unit PT or use the base gym, but they have no problem going to Goodlife, usually the first ones to clean up and get dressed. Well I have had enough. They choose not to work but someone has to do it, that person is me. I am tired of doing the job of 2 or 3 people and still have higher ups tell me to pick up the pace, cause they are too scared to ask the lazy ones. I get rewarded with more work, I'm lucky if I can go to the dentist or take leave. There are others like me and they have almost reached the limit as well. I hold many authorizations in my unit and the other day I was told to take on several more OR ELSE. I told them NO, I do more than my share of the work and its time for people the shape in or ship out. Some people don't have a single authorization, and that's ok, cause MIR commandos are not expected to work. However, when the workers say no, all hell is ready to break loose. LET IT HAPPEN, this non sense of catering to the sick, lame and lazy needs to come to an end. I understand there will be back lash for this "TREASON" but I would rather suffer with my voice heard then to suffer in silence. I'm just looking for any advice out there that could help me out in my situation. Thank you for listening


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (22 Jul 2016)

Sounds like a huge problem with the CoC. 

There is no entitlement to 2 sick days a month. I've always had the requirement that people go to the MIR if they are sick. If they claim they're too sick for the MIR then we can send an ambulance.

Unit PT is a parade, everyone goes. If you are on chit you show up with the listed restrictions and we'll modify the routine. If you can't do PT at all you show up at PT in uniform for the parade. Picking friends up at the airport, helping people move, bringing car to the shop, these are things that evenings and weekends are for, other than that buddy at the airport can get a cab. 

As far as stuff they can't do medically, then there's nothing you can really do or say, except for calling the MIR and asking for clarification on what they can and cannot do. Other than that, they work side by side with the guys, if they can't lift 10 kg then they'll lift lighter stuff, do things within their restrictions. The only people I've encountered that are embarrassed to lift the empty boxes as opposed to the full ones are the MIR commandos, people that are legitimately hurt have built the credibility that no one second guesses them and will get helped out by their peers. 

There's nothing really in the day to day garrison life that justifies mental stress, if a guy needs to take a knee and has built his credibility then people should help him when he needs it. If it's something that he's done all his career, well, shame can become a good motivator.


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## NavyShooter (22 Jul 2016)

Ok, so, straight to the point, are you jealous?


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (22 Jul 2016)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Ok, so, straight to the point, are you jealous?



I know I would be, I wish I could be that shameless to coast through my career without a care in the world!


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jul 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> There is no entitlement to 2 sick days a month. I've always had the requirement that people go to the MIR if they are sick. If they claim they're too sick for the MIR then we can send an ambulance.



I don't agree with this myself. If someone is barfing or shitting their brains out like some flu's cause then I think it's silly to have them shave, put a uniform on and head into the MIR to have a medical staff member say yes you're barfing all over.  Would you really send an ambulance to my house if I tell you I'm barfing and too sick to go anywhere?


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (22 Jul 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't agree with this myself. If someone is barfing or ******** their brains out like some flu's cause then I think it's silly to have them shave, put a uniform on and head into the MIR to have a medical staff member say yes you're barfing all over.  Would you really send an ambulance to my house if I tell you I'm barfing and too sick to go anywhere?



You have no idea why you are expelling bodily fluids in such a manner. I would think the prudent thing is to get it checked to make sure it's not serious, not to have a solider dying in a puddle of their own excrement in the SQ/PMQs


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## PuckChaser (22 Jul 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't agree with this myself. If someone is barfing or ******** their brains out like some flu's cause then I think it's silly to have them shave, put a uniform on and head into the MIR to have a medical staff member say yes you're barfing all over.  Would you really send an ambulance to my house if I tell you I'm barfing and too sick to go anywhere?



I would agree with you, but also say it 100% depends on who is calling. If the guy has never taken a sick day since he was posted in, and calls apologizing for not being able to come to work, take a day, no problem. If that person has a habit of calling every Monday, or every Friday, I'd be more inclined to require them to go to sick parade.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jul 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> You have no idea why you are expelling bodily fluids in such a manner. I would think the prudent thing is to get it checked to make sure it's not serious, *not to have a solider dying in a puddle of their own excrement in the SQ/PMQs*



That's a really weak justification for calling an ambulance to someones house when they have a flu. If they're that sick I'm sure they will call 911 before their section commander.

As Puckchaser says it depends on if the person is a serial sicky or not but making an otherwise non problematic soldier report to work then to the MIR then back to work then home if the have the shits is _wasteful._


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## NavyShooter (22 Jul 2016)

For situations like this, Monitor Mass is actually a pretty handy tool.  Especially if you as a supervisor are putting in sick days properly.  

Calling in sick once every couple of months?  Ok.  Maybe.  

Calling in sick every second Friday?  Hrm.

In the past 8 years, I think I've called in sick once.  

As a supervisor, it's part of my job to manage personnel, and if someone in the department is 'getting away' with something like this, it's my job to notice it.  MM is a handy tracking tool for it.

NS


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## TCM621 (23 Jul 2016)

In my experience, people who complain like the OP aren't as hard done by as they like to make it seem. Rather than bitching about people who don't pull their weight, and refusing to do work. Suck it the Fuck up and worry about you. Let your boss worry about the guy you think isn't pulling his weight. Maybe your boss knows something you don't. Some of us don't broadcast every little detail about our lives,  so maybe the guy with mental stress is going through something you couldn't even comprehend let alone deal with better. 

I have zero problem with a supervisor telling a subordinate with the flu to stay home and not infect anyone else. But it isn't a given and circumstances dictate.  I have never taken a non-MIR directed sick day in my life and I likely never will but I don't discount it as a part of a supervisors tool box.


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (23 Jul 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's a really weak justification for calling an ambulance to someones house when they have a flu. If they're that sick I'm sure they will call 911 before their section commander.
> 
> As Puckchaser says it depends on if the person is a serial sicky or not but making an otherwise non problematic soldier report to work then to the MIR then back to work then home if the have the shits is _wasteful._



I've never "called in sick" in 16 years. Why? Because if I'm that sick that I seriously can't work, then generally it's something I want checked out. I show up at 730 at sick parade regardless.

I have no issue having that same requirement of my personnel. What does piss me off though is supervisors who demand their subordinates do that while just staying at home themselves when their sick.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Jul 2016)

A common flu or cold is certainly justification for staying home.  It's not only about your ability to perform but also the risk of infecting other people.  I stay at home when I have a flu and I tell my subbordinates the same.  A flu, in most cases, is not justification to go to the MIR and jam the medical system to be told you can stay home and take 2 tylenols every 6 hours.


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## mariomike (23 Jul 2016)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> If they claim they're too sick for the MIR then we can send an ambulance.



You also posted in the "Abuse of Sick Days" discussion,



			
				RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> If you're too sick to report to the MIR we'll send you an ambulance.



While you are talking to them on the telephone, would you not first ask them if they wish you to call 9-1-1? 
If they are fit enough to have a work-related conversation with you on the phone, could they not call 9-1-1 themselves?

If the 9-1-1 Call Receiver makes it a Tired Response, they will send all three services.

Like Jarnhamar said, "If they're that sick I'm sure they will call 911 before their section commander."



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Would you really send an ambulance to my house if I tell you I'm barfing and too sick to go anywhere?





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's a really weak justification for calling an ambulance to someones house when they have a flu. If they're that sick I'm sure they will call 911 before their section commander.



If the employer is the Call Originator, would the employer pay the bill - if not a CAF ambulance - that gets mailed to the employee?

eg: Winnipeg Fire Paramedic Service
There is a fee for Paramedic treatment and transport to hospital. There is also a fee for Paramedic treatment only, even though the patient was not transported to hospital.
http://www.winnipeg.ca/fps/billing/Ambulance%20Service%20Rates.pdf
"The person who receives the treatment and / or transport is the person who is responsible for payment of the ambulance bill." 
"Unpaid accounts sent to Collection Agency."



			
				RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> You have no idea why you are expelling bodily fluids in such a manner. I would think the prudent thing is to get it checked to make sure it's not serious, not to have a solider dying in a puddle of their own excrement in the SQ/PMQs



I don't know which jurisdiction you live in, but where I served, they sent all three services to calls phoned in in like that.


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## PuckChaser (23 Jul 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> A common flu or cold is certainly justification for staying home.  It's not only about your ability to perform but also the risk of infecting other people.  I stay at home when I have a flu and I tell my subbordinates the same.  A flu, in most cases, is not justification to go to the MIR and jam the medical system to be told you can stay home and take 2 tylenols every 6 hours.



100%. Most people can shake simple stuff like that in 24 hours of rest at home. If nothing's changed in that amount of time after taking Tylenol/etc, then its time to engage medical authorities to see if its something they can assist with.

Going to the MIR for a cold is akin to going to the emergency room for that same cold. I'd never force one of my guys to sit and be miserable for 3 hours in the CDU waiting room if they've never shown that they're calling in sick all the time before. A blanket ban on allowing phone-in sick days is the easy way out, IMHO. No need for any supervisory or leadership skills needed to assess the situation.


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## armyman7877 (23 Jul 2016)

I understand your frustration but when you get into mental heath issues it can be really tricky to judge who is really sick and who is not.  Treatments of such illness can can vary greatly.  I have seen such cases when someone is judged as such but maybe they are really going through a difficult time in their personal lives such as a divorce, death of a parent, addiction, or depression  or are suffering from other issues that make it hard for outsiders to judge their life circumstances so sometimes it's just better to continue on with our work and leave them be.


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## NoMoreGames (23 Jul 2016)

If you are the kind of person who has never called in sick or very rarely does it, than yes, by all means stay at home. No need to go to the MIR for a cold or flu. However, if you seem to have a cold twice a month, usually before or after a long weekend, well I would question that. Every month seems to be a different medical issue ranging from illusions and headaches to hip / spinal pain. Of the course the classic, I couldn't sleep cause of traffic or construction. A blanket ban on calling in sick is not the answer either. Strong leadership, and the willingness to sort out some of these people is what we are lacking at my unit. I'm at an Air Force unit, and a lot of people would like to stay here forever if they could. Which means no one wants to cause a stir or give any indication to the career manager that they are still here. Many Sr NCOs have their name off the merit list, because they do not want to get posted or promoted. When they do get a posting message, they release and try to find a reserve position. Maybe a posting is what I need, a fresh start might do me some good. Getting posted is not an issue for me, and I look forward to working at different units and traveling. 

     Concerning the "mental stress" line. If someone has been on face book, kijiji or TSN for the last hour. Or reading the paper, talking to the cute girl at the front desk, sketching out new ideas for tattoos, the list goes on. A supervisor walks up to them, calmly, casually and politely says, in a soft clear voice, " hey man what are you working on". Well, according to the Commandos, you just created a hostile work environment. Then the mad rush to phone and call the MIR and make a huge scene and get the day off, light duties for a few days as well. Yes there are people who were ex army and have symptoms of PTSD and we do what ever we can to help them out. Others see that and try to cash in on it. Its the ones who need the help that suffer the most.  :yellow:

     Not jealous at all, I love my job and enjoy working with my hands. I honestly don't how these people sleep at night or put the uniform on. The work load is getting a bit to much. No issue doing multiple jobs at once for short periods of time, but now it seems to be permanent, with more coming as we enter summer aka cold and flu season.  Something has to give.


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## gryphonv (23 Jul 2016)

It's a very fine line. But also if you are not a supervisor or medical personal, your opinions are best kept to yourself, and if you are a supervisor or medical personal, you have avenues to deal with this professionally and more privately.

Gossip is horrible in the forces, and it is something that can tear apart a section, unit, or whatever. Much faster than someone calling in sick too much. 

Do people abuse the system? Yes. But there are checks and balances in place to catch most of them, see patterns. As mentioned before MM is a great tool for this as you can see patterns develop. If someone is chronically sick on say the 2nd and 4th Fridays of a month... a supervisor has every right to order them to sick parade and to get checked out. 

Even with that said, people do slip through the cracks at times. 

A lot of people are arm chair doctors and think they know everything about a person. Terms like suck it up, be a man, etc are still thrown around a lot. Not all injuries are physical, and as a member of the forces, it is your responsibility to let your medical team know of any health issues you may have, outside of that anything that is divulged by you to your CoC reguarding your health is voluntary.

If a person is suffering from something and they are on a chit. All the information that has to be divulged by them is what is on the chit. If you pressure someone for more info, or start gossiping, you yourself could be subject to discipline. 

Is it a perfect system? Far from it. But it is a system that takes the rights of those who are ill/injured as paramount.


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## NoMoreGames (23 Jul 2016)

I agree its not a perfect system and there are people that do abuse it. Just seems my unit has quite a few to many of them. Monitor Mass (MM) is a great tool to use and we make good use of it. However, the patterns are there, and its just a sea of red and yellow cause of all the time off and apts. In a shop of about 10  people, we are lucky if half show up ready to work. When you call in sick, and always with a different reason, questions should be raised. Once a person called in sick, could not make it in. Yet we saw him working out at the gym just after lunch. Naturally the CoC did not want to rock the boat or say anything to him. Yes we have people who need help and units should do everything they can to help out. However, when you see the patterns, and the excuses they use every time to get out of work, it just gets very frustrating. Asking them to answer the phone seems to be a heavy burden. Then they smile on the way out the door cause they got a day off, its like they want you to get mad. Watching one of them walk across the parking lot at work is also a treat. Walking fine, no problems, talking on the phone. Well as he got closer to the building "THE SICKNESS" hit him like truck. Coughing, holding his stomach like it was the only to keep if from exploding, and a limp so bad you think he had a wooden leg. He goes to the Sgts office and then you pass them in the hallway as he makes his way out smiling, rubbing his hands together like he just won a prize. CoC is tired of dealing with them, so is the MIR, however it is a fine line and needs to be dealt with on an individual bases. Painting everyone with the same brush is NOT the answer, but sadly, its one the military likes to use. Im going on 12 years of service, these people were a problem before I joined and I know they will be a problem long after I'm gone. However, something needs to be done about them. A lot of them join the forces cause they know the military cant fire them.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jul 2016)

Alternatively you could start a facebook page. Maybe call yourself Cpl Bloggins and just bitch, rant and name drop on it.


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## Scott (23 Jul 2016)

Building on what Jarnhammer said, have you actually done anything about this?

You're not really "fighting back" by posting your problems here. You'd be fighting back by approaching your supervisor in a calm and reasoned manner, without labeling anybody, jumping to conclusions, or making assumptions.

Other than that, hope posting here at least helps you feel as though you got it off your chest - it won't do much else for your situation.


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## Loachman (23 Jul 2016)

Why not surreptitiously videotape them goofing off/acting unsick and present your boss with the evidence?


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## NoMoreGames (23 Jul 2016)

Honestly, posting this does help me out, I also find this site helpful with lots of good info / advice. I spoke to my Sgt about this and we had a good conversation about this. He knows its an up hill battle and there have been many discussions on this at the WO/MWO level. Apparently its a weekly topic at my unit. However, finding the right course of action is a bit difficult given the fact it needs to be addressed one on one with these people.


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## Capt Caveman (25 Jul 2016)

NoMoreGames, you have obviously been under some kind of rock these past few years.  That has got to be one of the most disgusting things that I have had the misfortune of reading in a very long time.  It is that kind of twisted thinking which is the cause of a lot of our heartburn over the past few years.  You manner of thought is prehistoric and has no place in our military.  I swear that the CDS came out last year and spoke about our problems with mental health issues and the stigma attached to being diagnosed with an OSI.  Were you serving at that time or do you just disregard the thoughts of your superiors?  Your reference to individuals who seek out medical attention as “MIR Commandos” and “sick, lame and lazy” was typical of past thought and is why we have had a number of individuals who would rather suffer in silence than come forward.   It wasn’t acceptable then and it is still unacceptable today.  Are you a medical professional capable of diagnosing someone as a fake?  Somehow I doubt it so you should learn to trust the professionals who examine an individual and award medical employment limitations if they feel it is warranted.  If you really have concerns than by all means take it to your CO.  But I would suggest you walk in prepared to back up what you say with hard facts as opposed to your opinion that only you are perfect.

If I may offer some advice, learn to treat individuals with the dignity and respect that they are due and stop worrying about what others are doing and focus on your own deficiencies.  Some day you may end up being a supervisor and you may find out what it is like to actually care for the individuals who serve under you.  As for your complaint that you have to pick up the slack when others are ill, that goes with the job you have chosen.  If you have really had enough as you say than you always have the option to release and be free of all of the rotten individuals who have set you up for failure.  

Final thought, if you are really keen to fix this apparent problem, I would invite you to send an email to the CDS and/or CFCWO and tell them what you think.  Just remember that you will not be able to hide behind a “guest” login.


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## PuckChaser (25 Jul 2016)

Capt Caveman said:
			
		

> Just remember that you will not be able to hide behind a “guest” login.



Kinda like calling him out behind a guest login....


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## SupersonicMax (25 Jul 2016)

Capt Caveman said:
			
		

> Somehow I doubt it so you should learn to trust the professionals who examine an individual and award medical employment limitations if they feel it is warranted.  If you really have concerns than by all means take it to your CO.



It's all fine, but when the injury gets in the way of work performance to a point where the individual is cannot be fully employed in his/her normal duties, perhaps it is time to consider other avenues such as COT, release or temporarily send them to a unit where they will be able to accomplish other, more adapted tasks to their injury.

There is a limited amount of PY lines in a unit.  If someone that is less than productive occupies one of those lines, it takes away from the unit's effectiveness.  Normally this is not something satisfactory in the eyes of the CoC therefore, people pick up the slack.


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## Capt Caveman (25 Jul 2016)

Concur.  However, being an armchair quarterback and referring to members as MIR Commando and/or sick, lame and lazy is not acceptable.  There is an entire process that occurs when someone becomes ill or injured and it works when given a chance.  But it takes time as it should because we want to afford the member the opportunity to return to full duty if possible or at least be stabilized before being released.  As for the loss of PYs, I am not sure which unit you are with but I am fairly certain that a posting to an IPSC is always an option for the CO.  Finding a replacement is the tough part but that is a DMilC issue.  Of course, I believe that if you treat individuals with dignity and respect you will likely find that they more motivated to work through some of the tough times.  

One final note, the CDS has already recognized this very issue a couple of months ago when he made it clear that the CAF cannot afford to continue to hold individuals who are unlikely to return to full duty.  My guess is that universality of service will be pushed again and we will see quicker releases like we did in the late 90's.  So it has been recognized and it will be actioned in the near future. But it will be done in a procedurally fair manner...not because their peers thinks they should be released immediately because they have to pull extra weight to achieve the aim.


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## NoMoreGames (26 Jul 2016)

Not trying to be an "arm chair" doctor or any kind of specialist, but I do not see how looking at facebook all day at work is going to help you be a better technician or sailor or soldier. All opportunity is given to them, to engage their skills where ever they feel most comfortable. Yet, find something to complain about. So its back to facebook they go, or MIR cause you asked them to work, regardless of how simple or difficult the job was. Its the ones that are abusing the system that are issue. People who truly need help are not the problem, they need time and treatment to get back on their feet and I'll give all the support they need. However, when I hear someone bragging about how they got 2 days off work for using the "mental stress" line. That really gets to me. These are the same people who try to get off of the Remembrance Day Parade cause their DEUs don't fit. That pissed me off the most.
     
     I have always treated people with kindness and respect, but, there are those who will see that as a sign of weakness and try to exploit it. Some people stay in Forces cause they know it takes an act of god to kick them out. They enjoy the pay and benefits, but its like moving a mountain just to get them to answer the phone or file some paper work.

     As far as me being a "guest", Im a long time viewer and decided to finally sign up. Not sure how to get rid of the "guest" label.


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## Teager (26 Jul 2016)

Wait for the deployments to start. It usually weeds these kinds of people out rather fast.


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