# Interesting phenomenon  encountered while rucking



## DirtyDog (8 Dec 2007)

Because of taskings and what not, I havn't been getting much PT at work and have been doing a fair bit of rucking on my own time and came across a peculiar phenomenon.  I've been battling shin splints and lower leg pain since I joined over a year ago, and it's been a constant battle of stretching and ice to ward them off.  I'm mostly successful but they show up worst while ruckmarching then any other activity.  Being short and having short legs doesn't help when I'm stretching out my stride.

Anyway, I've been doing about 8-10K a day with some shuffling, up hill and cross country.  The first few km's on the road, the pain and tightness starts to set in in my legs.  Nothing critical, but bothersome.  It's at that point in my route where I go cross country through about 1 1/2 feet of snow and up a hill, then back down back onto the road.  It is like a magic freakin bullet.  All hint of pain, tightness, or what have you, is erased (although some quad soreness  ).  I continue for the rest of the march completely cured.  In fact, my lower legs have never felt better while rucking.  Maybe it's just all the stretching finally doing some good and some conditioning coming around, but it is such an obvious light and day change, that it's unbelievable.  Not to mention, after going up hill through deep snow, getting back to the road feels like your walking on air and you immediately want to go into a shuffle because it feels so good.

I just thought I'd share this curious phenomenon, as it kind of baffles me.


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## geo (8 Dec 2007)

maybe you haven't been stretching enough before starting your marches...

BTW, trying to figure this out, you're in the Regs, do your day at work and follow up with an 8-10 Km ruckmarch above and beyond the PT you do in the Bn?
What kind of PT are you doing during work hours?


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## X-mo-1979 (8 Dec 2007)

Geo I too am in the same situation reference PT and being in a regular force combat unit.
I can count on my hands how many times I have done PT with the unit since august.
I then have to put in 2 hours of my own time every night to stay in the condition to do my job.

It became evident when after near 2 months of no PT we had a brigade march over 20 km (believe it was 23km) that the army wants us to be in shape/expects it however with taskings and work up training it rarely happens.

So what does that mean to the average pte/cpl?Either give it up and say the hell with PT or take 2 hrs out of your own time everynight which leaves you with about 2 hours with your family everyday.

I have brought the point up,and was told I was "crazy" for doing PT on my own time.


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## tomahawk6 (8 Dec 2007)

Why isnt PT part of the morning schedule ? Do it before breakfast or after breakfast.


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## DirtyDog (8 Dec 2007)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Why isnt PT part of the morning schedule ? Do it before breakfast or after breakfast.


It is, or is supposed to be.  However, there is a lot going on and like was said, between taskings, courses and work up training, not everyone get's the time during the day.


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## geo (8 Dec 2007)

I'm with you on this T6.
I'm stuck in an HQ now and do my PT at whatever time I chose most days.... 1 hr per day - during my work schedule.
My boss wants me to do it and I am happy to indulge his request.

I'm impressed that you are prepared to spend 2 hrs of your own time BUT am baffled that your daily work schedule is such that, as a unit or as a Coy, or as a Troop/Platoon, you guys aren't doing PT.

What are you guys doing with your time that it so time consuming..... I'm truly interested / concerned!


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## DirtyDog (8 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> maybe you haven't been stretching enough before starting your marches...
> 
> BTW, trying to figure this out, you're in the Regs, do your day at work and follow up with an 8-10 Km ruckmarch above and beyond the PT you do in the Bn?
> What kind of PT are you doing during work hours?


When not being tasked or in the field, we will either run or go to the gym.  Usually a good ruck once a week, with or without FFO.  Latley however, it's been "go forth to the gym and PT thy self".

We were (are) severely short on NCOs to properly PT us, but I beleive that will soon be changing.

And even with a run or strength training in the morning, I like doing a ruck at night.  This is a rather new thing for me though.....


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## DirtyDog (8 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> I'm with you on this T6.
> I'm stuck in an HQ now and do my PT at whatever time I chose most days.... 1 hr per day - during my work schedule.
> My boss wants me to do it and I am happy to indulge his request.
> 
> ...


I'm rather new in these parts (6 months), but I think I can safely say that, through no one in particular's fault at the battalion level, things are a bit of a clusterf*ck around here.  i could give examples, but I'd rather not.


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## X-mo-1979 (8 Dec 2007)

TMST training,that destroyed all PT.No PT was done.
Other days it could be something simple like getting a sea container packed.So instead of PT we get to go in for 7h30,and usually by the morning all the work for that day is done.We then sit around in our unit lines and do joe jobs etc till 16h00.

My daily schedule looks something like this,and I'm sure dirtydogs does as well.

07h30 combats parade,O gp till 8h00ish.
8h00-Do the work that for some reason cannot be put off tillafter PT.
10h00- all assigned work complete,coffee break.
10h30-11h30-sit around wait for lunch/future taskings
11h30-12h30-lunch
12h30-till atleast 16h00-other joe jobs,more sitting etc.
16h00-16h30 commute home
16h30-17h30 arrive homecook supper
17h30-18h00 eat
18h00-20h00-2 hr family time (if there is nothing I need to get ready fro work tomorrow)
20h00-22h00-PT at gym or outside running/ruck etc
22h30-23h00 -shower get uniform ready for next day,go to bed.

Its like were always on call of Op's or someone who NEED IT DONE NOW!!PT comes second in everything.1 hr a day does not happen.

I'm sure dirtydog's schedule looks quite the same


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## HItorMiss (8 Dec 2007)

The CO of 1 RCR is big on PT however unit taskings are such that currently that there is either little to no time for PT because of the training schedule (Ranges, TMST timings, Ex Prep, EX) or the NCO's or those qualified to lead PT (and no not just anyone can lead PT) are buy doing the stuff to make sure the above mention training events go smoothly so the troops don't get the PT time they need. It's sad but unavoidable at this time. 

DD can attest that I made time to take the troops on PT but that was because it waseasy for me to get out of the real admin work that ate up everyone else time. Troops (the good ones) do PT on there off hours after work or at lunch. The CoC highly encourages it.

As for going to the Gym Pet got hit with a nice amount of snow like the rest of Ontario ours just sticks around and it would have been dangerous to use the roads for most PT activities so going to gym is the best option. Better that then injure the troops on some run or ruck march for no real good reason.


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## tomahawk6 (8 Dec 2007)

No offense but looks like there is time for PT at 0600 - 0700 the day needs to start a bit sooner. Its common in the US to start PT around 0530 - 0630 then breakfast. Unless in the field the training day ends around 1630.

HoM I agree that safety is important but its no reason not to do a morning run using road guards with reflective vests ect. I have done PT in ice fog,snow and rain its not pleasant but its part of soldiering.


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## X-mo-1979 (8 Dec 2007)

There are tons of PT qualified guys in my unit.Thats not a problem.The problem being is some work that absolutely cannot wait for an hour in the morning always pops up.
Or some kind of training or ex prep takes priority.And I dont see it getting better as the next few months look even more busy.

I don't stay in shape for the army,I stay in shape so I find my job easier and coinvince myself it may save my life someday.However with work up training etc it is harder on the family life to go to the gym for 2 hrs a night.And honestly there have been a few nights lately (wensday for example)that I said the heck with it and satyed home and relaxed.

And the huge thing that pisses me off is what they expect.Thay don't set us up for physical success and expect everyone to be bang on when the time comes to go for a run etc.
Im a "acting Mcpl" and honestly my admin for the future exercises etc is very little.We have 4 PLQ qualified cpls in our group that could run PT.So thats not an issue.

I have thought of doing an hour in the morning at DDH from 6h00-7h00.However I cant ever seem to kick my but out of bed that early. So hence I do 2 hrs per night.

There is no good reason to not do PT then spend 2 hrs of your day sitting waiting for something to "come down".


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## HItorMiss (8 Dec 2007)

Training day begins at 0800 at 1 RCR, if there is not PT that day then it's usually an early morning start of 0600-0700. I would much preffer the way we do it vice how the US military does it but that is just me. I do plenty of PT I just do it on my own time no need for me to start work at 0530 and go till 1600 just so I can do PT as a formed body of troops. I do better PT on my own regardless as I don't have to train to the middle mans standards.

T6, see now as a leader I think running in that type of weather conditions is wrong, I see no need to risk injury to my troops just so we do a run not when I can send them to a warm gym with an indoor track and a weight room and I can monitor their PT just as easily there as anywhere else. It had nothing to with safety against vehicles and such we have all the safety equipment required for that it had more to do with conditions of the road (Very very Slippery and 30cm of snow is not pleasent to run through anyway).


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## tomahawk6 (8 Dec 2007)

I never believed in coddling the troops. If you train only in ideal conditions I think it makes the troops soft.
The troops learn to suck it up and oddly enough it builds a certain toughness.


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## Donut (8 Dec 2007)

We've gotten some talking to about pt, and then spend our days very much like Ex Mo described it.

It doesn't help that there's a number of leadership types who I've almost never seen in the gym, or do PT of any kind.  It seems that the culture of fitness is being paid lip service.


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## HItorMiss (8 Dec 2007)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I never believed in coddling the troops. If you train only in ideal conditions I think it makes the troops soft.
> The troops learn to suck it up and oddly enough it builds a certain toughness.



Agreed 100%...BUT.... why do something as useless (IMO) as a formed body run in those weather conditions just to toughen the troops. That's what Ex's are generally for. Seriously I can't see it as useful to do PT like that just to do PT. Fitness can be achieved just as easily in a Gym when it's -20C rather then frost biting my soldiers. Don't get me wrong I will run them in the rain no problem I'll run them in snow (road conditions pending) But if I don't think it's worth it I'll take them to the gym. Plus I get better workouts from my guys there then I would Cocking them in shite weather.

Hey that's just me though, I expect a lot from my guys (DD will attest) but in turn I think I need to look after them and make sure that in a garrison environment I don't needlessly take a chance at injury just for PT.


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## X-mo-1979 (8 Dec 2007)

It has nothing to do with where you do PT.Or for that matter what you do for PT.The fact of the matter is instead of my usual 1 hr a night to just upkeep my physical condition and cat like reflexes I usually have to do 2 hrs just to keep myself to my standard.

Running outside down brindle hill or RCD hill when it looks like a ski hill is dumb.
No one runs fast without traction.I'm a huge fan of circuit training,therefor your not keeping the standard to "the middleman" but to yourself.

Culture of fitness is not alive at the unit levels in Petawawa.Peroid.
At the personal soldier level I believe it is a lot better than it was 8 years ago,due to soldiers coming in and doing their own PT on their own time.No thanks to the units.

I believe the culture of fitness is alive and well at the high rank levels in petawawa.Nothing was more evident of this than our 23 km march out of no where a few weeks ago.Which would have never happened a few years back.And honestly it was good to see.

T-6 
Starting PT at 5h30 sounds good.HOWEVER.
5h30 PT turns into a new first timing for the morning.I will guarantee in my unit anyway this would certainly turn into a new concrete timing and people would be forming up for morning parade to work on vehicles.

The basic fact is this.
Due to the high tempo people are not thinking about PT.Then all of a sudden they will do the usual "get in shape week" where you do PT everyday then don't do it again for a month.That's the basic reality of it where I work.

Having said that the group I work with for the most part are in awesome physical condition.And is one of the best groups of people I have ever worked with.But If you want to stay in shape you gotta dish out the time yourself.It's becoming a normal thing now for PT to not happen.And a lot of it is due to courses,last minutetaskings etc.

Overall though most of the young guys (like DD) are doing it on their own.Is it right?Maybe not.But I can promise as I make my way up the chain a little further PT will be an important part of my crew's DAILY schedule.I have even started a circuit training group during the lunch hour for my guys.I was surprised when I brought it up to them the reaction I got.Near half of my guys volunteered and were interested in doing it.Sometimes when the high esh is busy it must be the Mcpl's responsibilities to address the problem as he See's fit.25-30 minutes of my lunch hour is little price to ensure those who want to stay fit do.I also warned everyone it is only our group doing it and it is NOT a must attend.I wouldn't want the unit forcing guys to do it and I want no recognition for something like that.

I'm telling you guys if your interested in your soldiers well being throw it out to them.You may be surprised the response you will get.


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## Greymatters (8 Dec 2007)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Fitness can be achieved just as easily in a Gym when it's -20C rather then frost biting my soldiers.



Regardless of frostbite versus sweating issues, no one should be out running at -20, IMO its bad for your lungs.  Youre better off switching to indoor wind sprints.  Weighing in on group sports, if not run properly or if troops are used to slacking off, no one gains from the experience.


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## geo (9 Dec 2007)

nothing followed by get in shape week?

YIKES!  ««««««««««««««that,s how you strap on some tonnage


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## kayakguyt72 (10 Dec 2007)

This is a bit of a systemic problem that has been going on for years.  While it is continually hounded on that we need to improve physical fitness across the CF, PT seems to be the first thing that drops off the schedule when something comes up.  Working in a HQ for the moment I have no problem slipping away for an hour or two to do PT, but in an operational unit takes more imagination.  The leadership just need to be more flexible or imaginative when organizing PT.  While everyone is busier than hell, there is always time that can be squeezed in for PT, even if it's something short and sweet like a Crossfit work out.  We as leaders just need to be more crafty in planning or days out.


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

kay,
from the above examples, the troops arrive at the hangar for 07:30 and have most of their work done by 10:30
followed by much rump development... 
PT starting at 07:30 would see troops working thru till noon........ seems to work for me


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## HItorMiss (10 Dec 2007)

Geo,

That's what the troops see as their Schedule, however it's not always the case. Remember Pte so and so cannot lead PT. and the PLQ Cpl through to PL WO or PL Comdr do what they can to do T but it's not always in the cards. We can sit here and talk about amending the start of the training day all we want but the reality is that if we do that then the training schedule would be pushed back to eat up that time and again no PT. We do what we can and we do it well. No time in the day is untouchable no matter how important it is. I agree PT is NEEDED however I know when something is more important to get done then it seeing as the troops really can do that on their own time, vice oh say Vehicle maintenance that has to be done on work hours, unless of course you want to tell the troops and leadership and family (who we see not enough as it is) "Sorry everyone Training day will not start at 6am and go till 8pm because lord knows we HAVE to get our PT in". I think the system works as it is now. Troops and leadership do PT as a formed body as much as possible and when we can't we do it on our time.


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## geo (10 Dec 2007)

HoM,
I understand, just don't understand how we got to this point.
I understand the need for individual PT and that not every day needs to see PT as part of the schedule BUT, to omit PT from the schedule for .... +/- months (if some of the above posts can be believed).... I'm baffled.


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## kayakguyt72 (11 Dec 2007)

Well there is clearly a problem here.  To say that Pte so and so isn't qualified to run PT bothers me.  We should be training our young soldiers to use their initiative, afterall they are our future leaders.  So let loose on the reigns and allow them to take small groups out on PT as opposed to sitting on their rumps.  I know that there are just as many Pte's out there who can run a better PT session than some Jr/Snr NCOs.  It just takes some common sense and a little ingenuity to make it happen.


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## geo (11 Dec 2007)

From my perspective, if you don't have junior people who are trained to conduct collective..... Train some!


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## armyvern (11 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> HoM,
> I understand, just don't understand how we got to this point.
> I understand the need for individual PT and that not every day needs to see PT as part of the schedule BUT, to omit PT from the schedule for .... +/- months (if some of the above posts can be believed).... I'm baffled.



Really? You don't know how we came to be here?

I'll tell you how I did.

"More with Less."

Schedule at a certain section that I used to work:

0730hrs to 1600 hrs. Open for business.
Coffee Breaks: 1 each in the morning and 1 each in the afternoon for 15 minutes IF there were no courses in the house. Coffee breaks were VERY rare indeed.
1/2 hour for lunch. That's right -- 1/2 hour!! (1/3 staff on lunch from 1130 - 1200, 1/3 fm 1200-1230, & the last 1/3 fm 1230-1300).
1600-1700 ... 1730 ... 1800... 1830 on MOST days was when we got to put in our demands to reorder stock to issue.
Some specific desks in that section: returned after supper consistantly to place contractor orders and actually file the paperwork that had been generated over the course of the day.
Most weekends: Most of those desks (if not ALL of them to bulk issue to a CAP course etc) got into work to look after the little things (like putting stock that had just been dumped in the back warehouse when the 25CFSD truck showed up during working hours into it's actaul spots so we'd have it there handy should someone require it).

So, in that section it is ROUTINE for these pers to _*WORK*_ 13/14 hour days (and weekends too) consistantly without any PT in their schedule. They are NOT standing at the counter doing nothing -- I can assure you that they are WORKING. So, a lot do PT on their own time. But, hey -- they've got to sleep too!! And, be allowed to spend time with their families at some point in the day.

Short point? If they did PT from 0730 - 0900 daily, they would be at work until 2000hrs daily, completing everything that needed to be done or there'd be NO clothing on the shelves for them TO issue to any of those courses. Why? Budget cuts, staff cuts, early & mid-90s recruiting freeze and the tendancy now to focus recruiting at non-support types. But heck the higher HQ said:

"Do more with less!!" And we lived up to that faithfully. We met the Comds intent. Careful what you wish for. I either cut PT ... or tell buddy his family is out of the picture on his daily schedule and most weekends too, so we can meet the Comds intent. Hmmmm, what a choice that is for some of us -- please do NOT profess that most of us report for work daily but only deserve pay for "2 hours or so of actual work" ... that may be so in your case, but it hasn't been that way here for years now. I expect something to "break" shortly.


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## kayakguyt72 (11 Dec 2007)

Evil,

I don't know that HoM was necessarily speaking of some of the support trades.  Lord knows that if we downed tools in many of the support shops, the machine WOULD come to a grinding halt.  (It only took me 15 years to come to that realization!!)  It seems to me that he may be speaking from a line unit perspective....as I type, I can guarantee you that there are soldiers sitting in many Coy/Sqn lines doing nothing when they could be out on PT or doing some small unit collective training.  This is definitely a chain of command issue, but isn't necessarily seen by all of my peers, and in fact may be outright ignored in some cases.  Hell yes the troops are busy, but in a combat arms unit, physical fitness WILL one day save your life.


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## HItorMiss (11 Dec 2007)

Kayak and Geo

Sadly it's not as simple as letting loose the reigns or just training Pte Bloggins to run PT. Running PT is a PLQ Mod (in fact it's Mod 1) You have to merit the right to get on that course. Should some Pte be allowed to run Pte sans supervision from some one qualified to run it and some other soldier gets hurt. The liability issues are immense. I don't like the system and how it works heck I don't even want to be defending the system all that much. I just happen to know the reality of it in a line unit.


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## kayakguyt72 (11 Dec 2007)

HoM, I disagree, having served the majority of my career in a line unit, the PT Mod on the PLQ is a wall for us to stand behind.  I understand what you are saying, however, to say that a one week mod now qualifies and individual to run PT has always miffed me.  There are Ptes sitting in our units who posses more knowledge on physical fitness than some of the PSP staff working on our bases and in our gyms.  I'm sure it wouldn't take much imagination or administration for that matter to have the Pte's attend a couple of short lectures on how to run a proper PT session with a decent warm up and cool down.


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## HItorMiss (11 Dec 2007)

Rog that Kayak, so seeing as you are in position where you can effect change why don't you walk to your Unit DCO and start the conversation?

No I am not being sarcastic I fully support the idea 100% but you see Pte Bloggins down there in the Coy lines can say what he wants but nothing he says will make it change. I the PLQ Cpl can suggest it and nothing will move. You though have the ear so to speak of the Highers that really can make it happen. All you need to do is go to Op's and Trng and find some time to get those guys in for those lectures. I am positive troops would look at it as a good idea.


As for the PLQ Mod being a wall I totally agree!


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## X-mo-1979 (11 Dec 2007)

kayakguy72 said:
			
		

> HoM, I disagree, having served the majority of my career in a line unit, the PT Mod on the PLQ is a wall for us to stand behind.  I understand what you are saying, however, to say that a one week mod now qualifies and individual to run PT has always miffed me.  There are Ptes sitting in our units who posses more knowledge on physical fitness than some of the PSP staff working on our bases and in our gyms.  I'm sure it wouldn't take much imagination or administration for that matter to have the Pte's attend a couple of short lectures on how to run a proper PT session with a decent warm up and cool down.



Very true.Infact as a pte I was running morning PT.They sent me to the base gym to do a pt instructors course that took one afternoon during the sports afternoon.It also gives the Pte some responsibility and a good way fro him to get noticed.

The basic fact is we don't need to put in more hours at work we just need to work around our current timings.And if that means no coffee break well too bad.Why the heck should coffee break be sacred when PT is cut first.


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## PMedMoe (11 Dec 2007)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Why the heck should coffee break be sacred



  Blasphemy!!    
I agree with you.  I can remember sitting around quite a bit when I first got to Fd Amb, however, we always did PT.


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## geo (11 Dec 2007)

Vern,
Note that I wasn't razzing the Log branch.... some of my best friends are Log 
I understand that the drawdown of personnel, the mission prepare/deploy/return leave/career courses/ etc cycle makes it impossible to fit everyone into a simple table - am not suggesting we should OR could.
Some of the other boys have clearly indicated that sometimes, the daily routine in some combat arms units makes it possible to "insert PT here".  If it is possible, then we should do it.  Not having the leaders to do it - so we make all the soldiers sit around and clean the pics and shovels, over and over again isn't a solution - it perpetuates the cycle...
Q1) What can we do?
Q2) How do we go about getting it done?


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## Yeoman (20 Dec 2007)

I know that we're not having problems getting PT in with my platoon in the 3rd herd. well the section I'm in specifically.
you sit around? no excuse for you to go out back of the lines, or in the drill hall and just torture yourself. it's not that hard to muckle onto someone and go 'hey this section/platoon is going over here to torture selves, come get if needed' then grunt or something, because odds are if nothing is going on in the battalion lines, you'll see my section in the drill hall, torturing ourselves.


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