# Don't join the army if your broken!



## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2006)

[rant]
I don't want to deter anyone from joing the army here (wait yes I do) but if you're broken and or sick MAYBE the army isn't the best career path for you.

For the second time since this summer I was at the MIR waiting on someone when a mother (with her son in tow) was giving some poor medic or someone a hard time.

Her son NEEDED vibrim soles for his boots. He has back and knee problems and he needs speical boots bla bla bla.  The medic was trying to explain the process for getting the soles and suggested in the mean time her son might even look into getting the soles put on the boots himself.  Holy shit you should have seent he look on the mothers face. her son isn't paying one cent for something the army is required to provide  [Which pissed me off because I'm on my 3rd pair of self-bought vibrim soles] Way to milk the system, so why do we have money problems again?

Anyways my point is this mother made it sound like her son was ready to fall apart at any minute. he didn't look too healthy either though i'd probably look like i wanna crawl in a hole and die if she was my mother.

If your thinking of joining the canadian forces and your all busted and broken and sick then you MIGHT want to reconsider. Joining the army isn't the best on your health. Especially now since physical fitness standards are being more enforced.

Yes there are a lot of soldiers who are broken or injured sick or hurt but thats after spending 20 years in the army, not someone fresh off the street. People can't seem to understand the army is a physically demanding job irregardless of the pictures of out of shape soldiers.
I've seen infantry soldiers who are allergic to grass, i kid you not. This one soldier had a chit saying she didn't have to lay down in the grass because she was allergic to it...  
Soldiers allergic to metal (not the worst thing in the world but it has to be annoying as hell) and soldiers allergic to the  *SUN*.

I feel bad for these people and wanting to be a soldier is a noble and awesome thing but sometimes it just isn't ment to be. 
I'm even at ends with my own brother over this. He has arthritis in his back from weightlifting too much as a teenager and now he can't stand for long periods. Calls in sick half the time because he can't work for more than 3 or 4 hours.
I'm an asshole because I'm trying to talk him out of joining suggesting that he wouldn't make it through basic. There's having hope and then there is being realistic.

Worst still, and I've spoke with them before, are the people who are hurt and think they can join the army and then be taken care of and have an easy go.  Doesn't work that way. 

Anyways, if your hurt someone and still want to join the army have a serious bout of soul searching with yourself.  People get hurt a lot in the army, it's the nature of the job. Joining the army already hurt is a huge disadvantage and may just be a huge waste of your time so give it a lot of thought.
[/rant]


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## ZipperHead (11 Mar 2006)

Amen, brother. I, too, have seen soldiers, sans first hook, tricked out in the finest boots that Corcoran, Danner, Matterhorn, et al have to offer, or even Mk III's with the VIbram sole, when there are veteran ground pounders and other combat arms types who have to jump through hoops the size of a flea's ringpiece to get their first pair of "Gucci" footwear. 

I know that I have said on the past that EVERYONE should have the good footwear, but it should start with those that have been broken down by shitty footwear that the military has provided, not Johhny and Suzy fresh off civvy street.

It seems that in it's zeal to recruit anything with a heartbeat, the CF isn't being selective enough, and allows in too many pers with pre-existing medical problems. If people had any foresight, they would realize that this is going to cause problems down the road. That, and the culture of entitlement in society today, is creating a "Gimme, gimme, gimme" mentality (as witnessed by Ghost's example of little Pte Bloggin's mama DEMANDING special footwear for her little sadsack son).

Al


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

OK I'm confused.....yeah it's normal 

What the heck was a guys mother doing at MIR? 

next point was this guy already in the Forces or was he in the recruitment process?

For the love of god your in ******* army people! you can either hack it or you can't, If your already hurt, humping a ruck isn't going to make it better, I spent 5 yrs in mkIII before I got vibrams and it was medic on my Recce course that saw me popping some pills for sore knees that got me started on getting the vibrams. Me knees thank that medic everyday LOL

And explain to me how your mother goes with you to work? have some self respect!


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## Hunter (11 Mar 2006)

Excellent post, Ghost.  It's incredible how many seem to think that they can join with health issues and expect the military to accommodate them.  What kind of kid would think he's grown-up enough to join the military, but still needs his mommy to come to his rescue?  

That's funny about the infantry soldier allergic to grass.  I can see it now, playing enemy force on an exercise.  

Observer controllers giving instructions:"Ok, there will be a soldier standing up and moving right up through here (points in direction of expected attack), but do not fire upon her.  She is notionally crawling forward because she's allergic to grass.   Sorry it's out of my hands, she's got a chit."   :


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Yes....Ghost778  


Your rant intrigues me.  What was this guys Mother doing in the MIR with her son in tow?  Man....how can he hold his head up in the Unit now?


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## military granny (11 Mar 2006)

Guys
I know of one kid (at my age I can call them that) that had severe stress fractures in his feet and was told to sit out his graduation ceremonies. he replied that if he can get through basic then he would be on parade for grad no matter what. And his feet healed over time and he is doing fine. Now I could maybe understand if injuries happened in the field but before a kid even gets out there on those lovely ruck marches and ex's. The mama's boy should do the thing his mama wants and stay home .


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## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2006)

My only guess is that his mother is an actual service member herself. She sounded like she knew the system somewhat. He was in uniform. I felt bad for the kid more than I was pissed off.  i think the mother was 'one of them types'

I try and tell people the same thing about screwing yourself.
If your just comming into the army and you want a nice new pair of $300 boots so you say you have knee and back problems, well thats not shit you can take back.  Back and knee problems don't "get better" and your screwing the system for boots might have long term effects on your career.

I can see it now.
So you joined the army and now your saying you have knee problems? You've had knee problems all your life? Well on your recruitment medical you stated you didnt have ANY problems. Looks like someone lied... bye

People wonder why I buy my own vibrim soles.  Because I'm NOT hurt and I'm not about to pretend I am just to save $70.


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## Armymedic (11 Mar 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> My only guess is that his mother is an actual service member herself. She sounded like she knew the system somewhat. He was in uniform. I felt bad for the kid more than I was pissed off.  i think the mother was 'one of them types'



Was her first name Vern?  ;D Just kidding...don't kill me....please.

Actually having your mother in the service is becoming more common. It doesn't surprise me...actually very few things surprise me now.

Ref your rant, Amen, Ghost, Amen. 
I do not know how many times young troops come in with sore knees, hips and back, and the first they say is "I need new boots". No, you sack of poo, if you were in better shape and actually did pt more then once a week your body would not hurt. 
Since when in the military, did you get exactly what you want the first time you asked for it? 

But you know, it is getting better. Med Services are realizing the same thing about the $300 boots, and are now more likely to put you onto a TCat than to get you new boots now. Its cheaper and does the same thing...prevents you from being hurt worse.

Do you know what is more annoying? Same hurt soldiers who are almost capable to have their PDRs written by UMS staff, miraculously healing themselves when ever there is a tour or other "good go" coming around. Medics are no exception to that either.


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

Why do you have to be so mean to me Doc..... I'm hurt!

Not my fault I looking at all them pretty pretty ladies at the UMS, their so puuurrtyyy  ;D


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## Armymedic (11 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Why do you have to be so mean to me Doc..... I'm hurt!



Yes, hurt....not injured. We all know what means.   ushup:


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Was her first name Vern?  ;D Just kidding...don't kill me....please.


It wasn't me!! My son is 12.  ;D
And he frequently tells me that I am not the 'mothering' type!!  ;D


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2006)

> Amen, brother. I, too, have seen soldiers, sans first hook, tricked out in the finest boots that Corcoran, Danner, Matterhorn, et al have to offer, or even Mk III's with the VIbram sole, when there are veteran ground pounders and other combat arms types who have to jump through hoops the size of a flea's ringpiece to get their first pair of "Gucci" footwear.



And, I agree with you Alan. It's quite irritating isn't it?

It's also very irritating every end fiscal year when I am questioned by my CoC as to why we've overspent our "boot" budget by XXX thousands of dollars purchasing vibram soles or local off the rack 'Danners etc" or other footwear each year. I have to tell them each year....don't ask Supply for the answer to this question...ask the people who write the chits that cause us to have to buy these items.


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## GINge! (11 Mar 2006)

Why do I get the feeling this is some kind of wind-up to a "your mother wears army boots" punch-line?


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## beach_bum (11 Mar 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> So you joined the army and now your saying you have knee problems? You've had knee problems all your life? Well on your recruitment medical you stated you didnt have ANY problems. Looks like someone lied... bye



That right there is my big question.  How did they get in?  Did they lie?  Well, tossing their behinds out the door is A LOT cheaper than providing them with Gucci boots for the next some odd years.


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## Franko (11 Mar 2006)

I joined the reserves back in 88 and got on to B Class contract  until 94 when I joined the regs...and got hurt along the way.

Today I have:

- a back that gets injured from time to time....nothing I can do about, pinched nerve...back goes into spasm etc. Due to a training accident....in 93

- a wonkey knee....due to PT incident (Jiu Jitsu...throwing guy who weighed over 250 and my knee decided to go on coffee break)

- wrist that was crushed by a moron (he looks like a character off of STS9....Odo or something)

After all of that I finally got a chit for Vibram soles on my boots....3 years ago.

The Physio Doc saw the light and gave me the paper....which I was quite happy to get. 

After putting up with a bad back for well over 10 years and crummy boots....putting on the Vibrams was a God send.

My point is, you will get injured in the forces....particularly in the Army. Getting in with a health concern is not the best idea....

It's only going to get worse.

Regards

BTW....I'd get the boys to kick me in the nuts before I ever let my mother come in to the UMS with me.  As for lying on his application.....Shameful.


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## Wookilar (11 Mar 2006)

I remember when I left Cornwallis, I had ended up with multiple (are there any other kind?) stress fractures in both my feet. Might have had something to do with the fact that I was a soft skinny tent-baby that had never done much physical work in my life before joining. I think I'm like everybody else here, I can understand people breaking. Been broken myself a few times (2 concussions, broken fingers/feet, crushed hand[almost lost 2 fingers], multiple shoulder dislocations [left only], etc, etc), on and off course, so I certainly understand how it can happen. Boy, did I ever enjoy being a Vehicle Tech : But, while I may have been a softie when I entered, I certainly wasn't broken (to start with)!

Have the pre-enrollment medicals changed so much that a lot of this stuff gets missed? Has it really become that much of a push to get our numbers up that people are being accepted regardless of physical conditioning?  :'(


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## Springroll (11 Mar 2006)

Now, I am curious as to your opinions about someone joining the CF and later(after signing and a few years in) being diagnosed with something that they were born with?

Is it the same opinion?
Just curious, that's all.


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2006)

Very simple question, if it's a noted fact that the MkIII combat boots eventually wreck people, why do folks have a problem with getting them resoled or replaced? Effective prevention is far better then ineffective cure.

I should note, I have vibram soled combat boots, the chit was issued because of an injury which has since mostly healed (Will never be quite the same), though the soles were not purchased at public expense, $120 + the cost of two one way cab rides, and they're worth every penny I ever spent.


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## Franko (11 Mar 2006)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Now, I am curious as to your opinions about someone joining the CF and later(after signing and a few years in) being diagnosed with something that they were born with?
> 
> Is it the same opinion?
> Just curious, that's all.



Totally different....as long as the individual didn't know about it and it wasn't detected during the screening.

I know of someone who was diagnosed with a hole in his heart (no names no pack drill) and it kept him from going on tour with us for Roto 4/0. The man is in great shape and it came as a complete surprise to everyone who heard of it. He has been serving for at least 10 years as of right now.

He is currently being taken care of through the system and will probably be able to go on tour within the next year or so.

As long as it can be sorted out....can't see it being a problem, unless the individual lied on his application.

Regards


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## Springroll (11 Mar 2006)

Thank you for your reply, Franko.

and just so you know, he never lied on his application. 
He has been in for just about 10 years and was only diagnosed in January of this year.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Very simple question, if it's a noted fact  that the MkIII combat boots eventually wreck people,


It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

Hey Doc, by hurt I meant deep inside where my heart is

Physicaly I'm good to go...well other then this contant burning when I pee.....oh and the rash surrounding that area.  ;D


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is NOT a noted fact.


Absolutely. 

I have stated before, there seems to be a very big increase in the numbers of young troops joinging these days who have never worn a shoe on their foot that weighed more than an ounce or cost less than a couple hundred bucks. 
Because the young ones are not used to wearing any kind of footwear on a daily basis that has some 'substance' to it (ie weight), they all seem to think that the 'problem' is with the boot rather than in their whiny heads. I see it and hear it every day. "these boots are too heavy...I can't wear them....I'm gonna get a chit..."
Within a couple of days, guess what? Most of them return to clothing stores ... with chit to purchase boots downtown in hand.  :


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).




The MkIII combat boots are good boots, no argument, extremely durable, easy to care for, cheap, simple. No argument there. 

You're also quite right, the CF would never issue or expose us to anything that would cripple you, nor would they issue anything that causes cancer (Cam stick), alzheimers (Aluminium mess tins), botulism (Melmac plates/cups/etc) or god-only-knows-what (Honey).

I've never seen a study either, but the MIR perscribes getting the sole replaced as the solution to many problems, and it does solve these problems, doesn't it make sense to have the soles replaced before the problem occurs? It's not just the boots of course, but they're one link in a chain... a weak link... if you're humping a "light" infantry load, that's a heck of a lot of kit... it's eventually going to do things to your knees arches and back... vibram soles reduce that strain... if you want the science behind it, read up on "impulse", force acting over time.

And as a side note, my own vibram soled boots weigh more then they did pre-vibram sole.


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2006)

Just out of curiosity for the detractors of vibram soles, do any of you also use the issued insoles for the combat boots?


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2006)

I use the issue insole with a Vibram sole boot, I found that the "Gucci" civi insoles gave me blisters, where as the issue ones did not.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Yes.  Always did.  Same with my mukluks.  Used the issue insoles and socks with them too.   ;D

Armyvern has a couple of good points.

After all those years of working on tracked vehicles, I like so many of my peers, have compressed discs and the ensuing back problems.  Now after complaining of backpain and visiting an Othorpedic specialist, I to have fancy insoles and vibrams.  Was this necessitated from wearing boots or more from the constant vibration of tracked vehicles?  Do many of us older guys think that the young are wimps?  Yes.  How many of us can say that we have never seen someone in our sub-unit BS their way into a new piece of gucci kit, or even go outside the system to purchase it for the LCF in the Field?  We have all seen those snives.  Some people have injured themselves in the job and should get the kit, others just want to have the LCF.

Aren't we off topic now?


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## armyvern (11 Mar 2006)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The MkIII combat boots are good boots, no argument, extremely durable, easy to care for, cheap, simple. No argument there.
> 
> You're also quite right, the CF would never issue or expose us to anything that would cripple you, nor would they issue anything that causes cancer (Cam stick), alzheimers (Aluminium mess tins), botulism (Melmac plates/cups/etc) or god-only-knows-what (Honey).


Get a grip on reality. As soon as the CF learned that these things led to ill helath effects they pulled them right? 

No need for a study. Quite literally thousands of soldiers before you have worn Mk III boots and have suffered no injuries because of them. I could go through all my hundreds of chits for the past 3 years if you like and post an exact count for you of exactly how many of these chits are 'issued' out to young personnel with no deployments, real field time etc etc. Before I count them though, I can assure you that at least 90% of them belong to young troops vice experienced CF personnel who actually have enough time-in to have been injured in their service to their country.


			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I've never seen a study either, but the MIR perscribes getting the sole replaced as the solution to many problems, and it does solve these problems, doesn't it make sense to have the soles replaced before the problem occurs? It's not just the boots of course, but they're one link in a chain... a weak link... if you're humping a "light" infantry load, that's a heck of a lot of kit... it's eventually going to do things to your knees arches and back... vibram soles reduce that strain... if you want the science behind it, read up on "impulse", force acting over time.


If you think vibram soles are the solution to retiring after a 20 or 25 year career in the infantry with no foot, back or knee problems....you don't understand much about the nature of being infantry. And *"Impulse", force acting over * time means little to me when the guys who have done their "time" in the infantry etc are *not* the ones coming in with the chits; as I stated before....it's the new troops.


			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> And as a side note, my own vibram soled boots weigh more then they did pre-vibram sole.


You mean the ones you had to buy yourself? That's ironic because if you were issued a chit (ie prescribed) by physio for vibram soles due to a "medical reason" then the taxpayer is the one who pays, and that directive comes from the CFMO's and the CFSM. 

And since when were custom MkIII combat boots @900 bucks a pop considered cheap?


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> Get a grip on reality. As soon as the CF learned that these things led to ill helath effects they pulled them right?



They did. And all these items were in use for quite a while before the ill-effects were noted.

I'll admit it's a bit stretched to compare them to the boots, but still, do say the CF wouldn't issue somthing that causes harm is also stretching it.



> You mean the ones you had to buy yourself? That's ironic because if you were issued a chit (ie prescribed) by physio for vibram soles due to a "medical reason" then the taxpayer is the one who pays, and that directive comes from the CFMO's and the CFSM.



They were perscribed by an MO, because I was shifting weight to one corner of my foot because of an injury, and as a result, causing major pain to my toes (I should note that the injury itself was in ice each night, and my course mates loved it as it gave them somewhere to put beer). When I got the vibram soles perscribed, I never had any intent of having the crown pay, and when they need to replaced, they will be replaced out of my own pocket.



> And since when were custom MkIII combat boots @900 bucks a pop considered cheap?



Good lord, do you mean actual custom combat boots, made custom for a specific foot, or is that the price of the standard issued boots???

Since I'm guessing I won't be able to change either of your minds anyway, I won't argue the point any further, but are you at least ok with vibram soles assuming they're done out of pocket for the individual?


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## Armymedic (11 Mar 2006)

Let me throw in a though about the Mk3 Cbt boot.
Designed for outdoors, military like conditions, correct? Everyone agrees with that. Good boot for what its made for, correct?

Vern, 
how many of those troops with those chits are garritroopers who spend the vast majority of each of every work day indoors?

In the reg force, in our buildings, what does the flooring consist of?
Tile over concrete.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

AM

If I am following your line here......we will soon have a rash of young soldiers coming in requesting Cbt Pants with padded bottoms.   ;D


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## Armymedic (11 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> we will soon have a rash of young soldiers coming in requesting Cbt Pants with padded bottoms.   ;D



Padded bottoms, padded knees, expanding panels in the shirt....
You assume this has not yet happened. 

The limit of a medical chit is endless.
:brickwall:


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2006)

As long as we're at it, can I get the maternity panels?


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## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2006)

> Now, I am curious as to your opinions about someone joining the CF and later(after signing and a few years in) being diagnosed with something that they were born with?



Now that's just being a little self rightious and a silly. Why bring it up?

There is an OBVIOUS difference between someone in your husbands unfortinuate and heart felt case, developing an illness after 10 years of service and a kid joining the army with a *known* pre-existing physical condition.

Emphasis on the word known.

In my little corner i've constantly heard and spoke with soldiers who see reporting an injury as a shortcut to nice boots. And that's the root of the problem.  Soldiers telling newer soldiers to go to the MIR and get a chit.

Soldiers who have put their time in and humped rucksacks every week on PT for years (field infantry or even CSS IMHO) BFTs and deployments deserve this kinda stuff.  New recruits making a B line for the MIR then clothing? Fuck no.



> if you like and post an exact count for you of exactly how many of these chits are 'issued' out to young personnel with no deployments, real field time


Exactly.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Exactly!   Bang on Ghost.


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## Britney Spears (11 Mar 2006)

Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.


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## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.



Bang on Brit,

Now this is a very good concept that makes sense.

Definatley would reduce further injury, and at least allow the troops to be in control of one peice of kit, that can help reduce injury.

dileas

tess


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2006)

Or we can be like the US Army and everyone buys their own out of their own pocket.   :


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## ZipperHead (11 Mar 2006)

I think it all comes down to what has been mentioned here (by me and others) and elsewhere: too many "new" (I hate to say "young" because a lot of the people I hear of pulling these types of stunts aren't in their late teens/early 20's) people think that if Johnny has something that has a high LCF, they should have it, too, regardless if they actually need it or "deserve" it. They feel it is their birthright, and they are damn well entitled to it.

There is decidedly less "fear" in new soldiers now, what with the huggy kiss "here are your rights: now go out and use them!!!!" being foisted right from the CFRC on upwards. I would've swallowed battery acid before saying "You can't make me do that!!!" to anybody with 2 days more in the Army than me (when I got in), and now it isn't uncommon to hear of new soldiers saying that to Cpl's, MCpl's, etc, etc. 

Whether it's right or wrong to question certain things (cam paint tubes, aluminum cups, melmac, anthrax medication, etc) when you have doubts as to their safety and/or effectiveness can be left to the JAG, but I *KNOW* that I will never wear a pair of Mk III's again, even if I have to buy my own boots by collecting pop can's out of the ditch. Some swear by them: I swear at them. I wore them in their unaltered state for about 12 years, and then had them Vibram soled, and now wear alternative footwear (one pair paid for by the Crown, one pair paid for by Al). As AM mentioned, the majority of the time spent in Mk III's is in garrison, on concrete or asphalt (or surfaces laid on top of those). The pounding that your body takes is incredible and the Mk III (in it's "out of the box, with cheeseball liners") provides next to no cushioning. The Vibram sole itself does little (other than provide a sometimes better/sometimes worse outer sole): it is the cushioning between the outer sole and the boot that provides the cushioning one needs. Take a look at ANY quality boot (and even lower quality boot) and they provide this. Same goes for running shoes, and even dress shoes now. It's called "technology". Go from wearing a pair of "good" boots (Danners, Matterhorns, Corcorans) or even MK III's with Vibram soles to  MKIII's (in unaltered state) with issue (not Spenco insoles, which are given out at UMS, not clothing stores..... hmmmm, what does that tell you?), and it feels like you are walking around with hockey pucks strapped to your feet (especially when it is near freezing). 

Time for the CF to get with it, and invest in new boots (yes the CTS programme is procuring them, but I shant hold my breath waiting) that can be worn EVERY day (the WW boots suck mad ass when you are a Carpet Commando or Hangar Queen (and in the field for that matter), unless you like having feet that roast in the summer). 

Anyway, my rant out of the way, and for you young 'uns who say "Well, he won't wear the Mk III's, why should I?": read how long I went without, and also note that I paid for my own (and was willing to pay for resoling of the MK III's (a new pair), but the system ran out). If it means that much to you, you have to be willing to spend some money out of yer own pocket. And finding a sympathetic MO to sign the chit that says you can wear them  ;D (or avoid your RSM like the plague).

Al


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## Patrolman (11 Mar 2006)

So what about Cornwallis Cripplers I suppsoe they are great pieces of kit to? I guess they must be since they are issued kit. I bet two hundred years ago people though their boots where great eveen though they had square toes. To them a right and a left boot was probably an absurd thought. It all depends on the times! 
  
 A few years ago I hurt my ankle while jumping from a Chinook. My ankle refused to heal for more than three months. Finally after being examined for the ump-teenth time it was discovered my arches had fallen. Guess what I wore faithfully for the previous five years. The Mk3 with issued insoles. No arch support to be had there. So after Physio and some corrective insoles things got better for a bit. Then it was discovered one of my legs was 3/4 of an inch shorter than the other. I asked for Vibram soles but was refused. After this I did selection for the Cambrian Patrol. Needless to say after a few weeks of humping 10 to 20 km a day my feet were a mess. I went from being the Navigator to a spare. My unit however decided to have Vibram soles put on the teams boots. HUGE improvement. Within a couple of weeks my feet healed and I was back on the team. I did the patrol with no foot issues and our team was awarded a silver medal. Without the soles our team probably would not have left Canada because of injuries.

 It was not until I was deployed to Haiti that I got a chit for Vibram soles. The only reason was because  it was coming from the Mission budget. Without Vibram soles my compounding injuries would probably have caused me to leave the Infantry.

 For those on this thread who haven't humped a few hundred km's with rucks wearing Mark 3's don't try to convince me how wonderful they are. As for the kid at the MIR with his mom ,well, that's pathetic. And yes I do agree if you are broken find another career path.


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2006)

"For the second time since this summer I was at the MIR waiting on someone when a mother (with her son in tow) was giving some poor medic or someone a hard time."

- Back in 1973, my Mom thought my Mk II cbt Boots (the Mk Is had just been replaced) looked good.  My step-father thought they were a lot better than the 'Ammo' boots he landed in Sicily with and wore until well after VE Day.

But, none of us thought I would wear them for 35 years, and spend a lot of time running in them to boot (sorry).

Now?  Fallen arches.  Orthotics.  Mk IIIs with Vibrams, one sole starting to floppy.

But, hey, life could be worse...

Tom


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## Franko (11 Mar 2006)

Yeah....my DBs are falling apart at the Vibram sole as well, heat in Astan is a bit much I guess.

Going to have to get them re-soled before the next deployment     :

Regards


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## armyvern (12 Mar 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Let me throw in a though about the Mk3 Cbt boot.
> Designed for outdoors, military like conditions, correct? Everyone agrees with that. Good boot for what its made for, correct?


Absolutely


			
				Armymedic said:
			
		

> Vern,
> how many of those troops with those chits are garritroopers who spend the vast majority of each of every work day indoors?


I'd say about 5% are garrison soldiers...the overwhelming majority are first line personnel.


			
				Armymedic said:
			
		

> In the reg force, in our buildings, what does the flooring consist of?
> Tile over concrete.


It depends on where exactly you work I guess. The vast majority of EME, Sup, TN and Engineers are wearing their safety boots. I find that most CSS troops not wearing safety boots as their daily footwear...tend to have carpeted floors on this Base and others I have been to. MPSS, customers services, LPO to name a few. While in the medical world I've noticed that you guys tend to have that all in one piece flooring... don't know what it's called.

Perhaps you explain this phenomena to me... How exactly does one develop a "foot problem" requiring a chit overnight...or within a couple of days? They whine to us about the Mk III being to heavy or "ugly", say they are going to go get a chit for vibrams or purchased boots (were talking no-hooked Ptes here) and lo and behold...they're back (I've even had a couple of them return the very same day) with chit in hand for vibrams..or customs...or whatever and laugh about it at the counter? I've taken names, submitted them up my CoC for query as to exactly how I can have 9 chits dated that very morning already standing at the counter in clothing stores only 25 minutes after physio opened. 

I'd also like to point out that it just seems to be getting more flagrant since the physio/medic side of the house has begun employing more (and I don't know the proper term you use here) civilian practitioners at the MIR. 99% of the chits I do get are authorized by a civilian staff member from the MIR vice an MA, PA or MO. Apparently the Pte's know exactly what to say to them to get a chit...my husband still can't figure it out after 20 years in the infantry (10 with the CAR) and over 8000 jumps...I just tell him to go ask the nearest Pte because I can't figure it out for the life of me but apparently the Pte's can...and do.


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## TCBF (12 Mar 2006)

It took an MO's signature (not the MA's, not the PT's) to get my boots Vibramed.  After which,  QM was going to issue me two new pair to GET Vibramed, but I thought it a waste, as the ones I had were just broken in.  So I turned in my 'used' pairs, and broke in my orthotics one pair at a time in each boot - with and without ruck.


Anyway, boots are not pharmaceuticals.  An MO can no more tell the BSup O to by an item out of the QM budget than it can tell the ATO to buy ammunition.  Now, if the MO is also supplying a FINCODE, that would be different.

Tom


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## armyvern (12 Mar 2006)

Patrolman said:
			
		

> It was not until I was deployed to Haiti that I got a chit for Vibram soles. The only reason was because  it was coming from the Mission budget.


Uh no they didn't...I bought all Op Halo's boots here in Gagetown and shipped them (even the ones that were prescribed in-theatre) and they were brought with the regular budget as yours were prescribed for medical reasons, if it was mission budget the whole tour including my husband would have got them, who after humping his ruck 1000s of kms is still wearing his MkIIIs and bitching about the new troops in their gucci kit.


			
				Patrolman said:
			
		

> Without Vibram soles my compounding injuries would probably have caused me to leave the Infantry.


Then you have an honest-to-god injury...which is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the whiners who can magically end up with a chit who have no injury.


			
				Patrolman said:
			
		

> For those on this thread who haven't humped a few hundred km's with rucks wearing Mark 3's don't try to convince me how wonderful they are. As for the kid at the MIR with his mom ,well, that's pathetic. And yes I do agree if you are broken find another career path.


No-one said they were perfect. After all vibram is a recent technology. And the move is on to eventually have all our boots issued with vibram soles as it's benefits are recognized. Until then, the troops with no injuries continue to bleed the budget (that's your budget too), you see because the chit is a "medical requirement" I can't refuse it. So when I overspend by XX thousands of dollars this fiscal year...someone or something else loses their budget to do whatever...ammo for the ranges etc etc.


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## TCBF (12 Mar 2006)

""medical requirement" I can't refuse it. So when I overspend by XX thousands of dollars this fiscal year...someone or something else loses their budget to do whatever...ammo for the ranges etc etc."

i don't see how you can be ordered to spend your budget on items you do not stock.  Can the MO order you to buy crutches, wheelchairs and iron lungs as well?  MO's - ouside of their own units - are ADVISORS, and while advisors may advise, COMMANDERS COMMAND.

I would check out the auth of an MO to actually order this. If you can't find it in writing - call them on it. Sure, I suppose one of my soldiers (when I had them) could have shown me a chit for Silk jammies - I would send him to the pharmacy.

Tom


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## armyvern (12 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> It took an MO's signature (not the MA's, not the PT's) to get my boots Vibramed.  After which,  QM was going to issue me two new pair to GET Vibramed, but I thought it a waste, as the ones I had were just broken in.  So I turned in my 'used' pairs, and broke in my orthotics one pair at a time in each boot - with and without ruck.


This can be delegated down as per CFMO's. We give the troops the option here as to whether or not they want their broken in MkIIIs re-soled or a new pair re-soled. Most opt to have one broken in pair re-soled and one new pair re-soled.


			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> Anyway, boots are not pharmaceuticals.  An MO can no more tell the BSup O to by an item out of the QM budget than it can tell the ATO to buy ammunition.  Now, if the MO is also supplying a FINCODE, that would be different.
> Tom


Any item of clothing prescribed for a medical or orthopaedic reason is purchased by clothing stores and issued onto the members clothing docs. Items can also include include chairs, keyboards or any other 'appliance"  prescribed by appropriate medical authority, boots, sleeping bags without feathers due to alllergies etc etc. These "prescribed" items then belong to that member and follow him/her for the duration of their career. If the boots or other item are "prescribed" the BSupO has no authority to not purchase the member the prescribed item, that would be dis-obeying a Medical Authorities orders. And no, the MIR does not supply a fin coding, although it was a point I have raised to NDHQ, as if they had to supply their own fin code, I'm quite sure that the current number of personnel who seem to be able to obtain chits would drop off drastically (and again I'm talking about the un-injured ones who will tell us right to our face that they are just going to go get a chit -when we tell them they don't come with vibrams on them- who manage to be back within the week with that chit).


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## armyvern (12 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I would check out the auth of an MO to actually order this. If you can't find it in writing - call them on it. Sure, I suppose one of my soldiers (when I had them) could have shown me a chit for Silk jammies - I would send him to the pharmacy.
> Tom


It is in writing in both the CFMOs and the CFSM (Medical Orders and Supply Manual). Crutches etc are somewhat different as these items are CMED items (Central Medical Equipment Depot). When they show up with a chit for SPF 40 sunblock at the front counter I send them back to the pharmacy at the MIR (And...yes...this has happened!! Along with the one chit that said "Buy this soldier 'cherry flavoured medicated chapstick." ) These are prescribed medications as far as I'm concerned...and I did win that battle.


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## TCBF (12 Mar 2006)

Well, heck, I learn something every day, I guess.


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## Franko (12 Mar 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> When they show up with a chit for SPF 40 sunblock at the front counter I send them back to the pharmacy at the MIR (And...yes...this has happened!! Along with the one chit that said "Buy this soldier 'cherry flavoured medicated chapstick." ) These are prescribed medications as far as I'm concerned...and I did win that battle.



 :

What next....Charmin TP for their arses?

Regards


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## Patrolman (12 Mar 2006)

Vern
 Just so you know. It was the physio therapists who told me the vibram soled boots were being paid for by the OP Halo budget. They had said they were told to give them to anyone on their case load who had feet problems and requested them.
 There has been a serious mis-use of the system I agree.This will always be a problem so long as there are people who feel it is their God given right to the exact same kit as their buddy even though they don't need it.
  I also agree there is a problem with the standards of the physio staff(boot wise). Some will issue chits to people with ten minutes in  the Army ,while others will tell people like your husband and myself too bad." Perhaps you could wear your wet weather boots" (even thoughit's 30 degrees out). Luckily for myself I was able to get a chit before I sustained any more injuries.
  Point to note. Recently I had eyelets on both pairs of my boots damaged causing them to cut my laces after a day or so. I took them to RSG hoping to send them in for repair. What I got however, was two new pairs of boots with vibram soles. Good for me but not for the supply budget.


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## chrisf (12 Mar 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> Apparently the Pte's know exactly what to say to them to get a chit...my husband still can't figure it out after 20 years in the infantry (10 with the CAR) and over 8000 jumps...I just tell him to go ask the nearest Pte because I can't figure it out for the life of me but apparently the Pte's can...and do.



Not a private here, but he's welcome to do the exact same thing I did... go to the MIR, see the MO, point out that your boots are causing problems, and that you want vibram soles... if they say no, point out that you're more then willing to pay for them yourself. If his boots (Knees/arches/ankles/back/whatever) are causing him trouble, believe me, the price to get them resoled is small by the relief it'll give.


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## Prariedawg (12 Mar 2006)

IMHO all combat arms should be issued the Danner (acadian boot system)with good insoles at the completion of their Q L3.These soldiers have a foot-borne career carrying heavy things ahead and need specialized boots for their work just as Techs do.This would offset some of the foot related injuries suffered by the combat arms vice paying what we do now to treat those injuries.If you give the soldiers the best equipment possible to complete the mission you ensure maximum performance,and those who continue whinging are your non-hackers.


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## Armymedic (12 Mar 2006)

Enough about boots...I hate %$^* boots.

If you want gucci boots, make up an ailment (my knees ache (both, dull achy pain, 8/10, Motrin doesn't work, lasts all day, and occasionally keeps me up at night) after every run/ruck march), get an appointment with a civilain doctor or physio at your base, and then you'll have your chit. The go see supply, and they'll tell you to go to the authozied dealer and order your boots, on the CF's charge.

If your lucky, you won't see me first.

Now how about we get back on topic....?

Don't join if you are broken!!


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## bilton090 (12 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is NOT a noted fact.  It is, however, a b i t c h that I hear a lot in forums like this, usually from those with little real experience.  I have never ever seen a conclusive study to that effect, nor have I ever seen any CF documentation to that FACT.  Do you think the CF would intentionally issue kit that would cripple you?  Get real.  The Mk III is a good boot.  I wore them for years in the Military and years prior to the military as Civie boots (Greb Kokiaks).


 I've been wearing the MK III's starting in 1981, 83-88 w/ the born. 88-91, 02-06 I like the boot's have no prob's ... Double sole's is nice!!!!!
   Chimo!   Airborne!


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## bilton090 (12 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.


    THERE'S NOT A THING WRONG WITH THE BOOT!!!!


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## chrisf (12 Mar 2006)

bilton090 said:
			
		

> THERE'S NOT A THING WRONG WITH THE BOOT!!!!



And there was nothing wrong with the old combat jacket. It's just been replaced with newer and better technology. I can't imagine anyone disputing that vibram soles are better then what's on the boots now...


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## Glorified Ape (13 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Or we could just issue everyone better boots from the get go, at a nominal extra cost, or maybe just issue one pair of boots and then give the member an allowance for the second pair of "field" boots. All the man/hours saved on the MIR/Clothing busywork would more than pay for it, and I wouldn't have had to wait 5 years before I was "broken" enough to deserve gucci boots.



Amen. The MkIII works fine for some people and doesn't work well at all for others. Unfortunately, I fall into the latter category. I was born with club feet (http://www.pediatric-orthopedics.com/Treatments/Feet/feet.html#club for anyone unfamiliar) but I had a good surgeon and I can run/walk/march/etc as well as anyone else. I'm supposed to use orthotics (which I do, I have an old pair I had made while ago), but I can function fine without them. My MkIIIs currently sag over the outer edge of the sole by about 1 inch (I suponate like crazy), so I'm constantly teetering on the outside - this is after 8 months of use. They're also not wide enough and I have the widest size available. 

I'm not "broken" and I can function as well as anyone else, but the MkIII is absolute crap for my feet. I've been told by my DS while on course that I should go look into different boots/modified boots and new orthotics. So I did, and I'm currently waiting on vibram soles and orthotics. I could wait until I have chronic knee/back/ankle/foot problems as a result of wearing the concrete-soled, unsupportive MkIII or I can act responsibly and wear vibrams and orthotics. I don't view chronic joint problems as some sort of testament to my manliness. I don't see the logic behind soling a boot meant for heavy duty/prolonged use with something about as cushioning as oak. Maybe I missed something. I also don't see the logic behind having new troops wait until they're injured/impaired until providing them with suitable boots.


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## ERIK2RCR (13 Mar 2006)

Every, and i do mean EVERY office in EVERY UMS/MIR i've ever been in has had the medical requirements for vibram soled boots posted on the wall on a large poster. IMO this isn't there for the MO/NP's reference.


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## George Wallace (13 Mar 2006)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> .......... I could wait until I have chronic knee/back/ankle/foot problems as a result of wearing the concrete-soled, unsupportive MkIII or I can act responsibly and wear vibrams and orthotics. I don't view chronic joint problems as some sort of testament to my manliness. I don't see the logic behind soling a boot meant for heavy duty/prolonged use with something about as cushioning as oak. Maybe I missed something. I also don't see the logic behind having new troops wait until they're injured/impaired until providing them with suitable boots.


I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.


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## Glorified Ape (13 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.



Agreed - falsely claiming injury is repugnant in the first place, but doing so in order to milk the system for things you don't need is even worse.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2006)

> I am sure that we all agree with that statement.  It is the fact, that many do not, and are not developing any problems.  It is these people who are abusing the system, falsely claiming 'injuries' to get what they deem gucci kit at Public expense.



Exactly.

Not everyone is going to love the MK3s but the army isn't known for buying the best out there. I'm sure if we bought the top of the line $600 a pair boots some people would still dislike them and require something different.   I can see why the army is not in a rush to go and purchase danners (or whatever) for everyone out of basic (imagine the money wasted on people who only do one engagement?) but i think it would be a good idea to atleast throw vibrim soles on all the Mk3s. Good compromise.

Glorified Ape in your case I have two opinions. On one hand joining the army with a foot condition seems a little crazy but by the sounds of it you're able to soldier on without much difficulty. Your disadvantaged more than the average guy but it doesn't sound that bad.
The problem people are the ones who hit the MIR on week 1 of their basic training and CONTINUE with their MIR visits for the remainder of their career.  They have perminate chits limiting them from a myriad of duties. No marching. No lifting. No load bearing. No this or that.
Getting hurt while in the service is one thing.
Joining the forces with a condition, yours for example, and over comming it is something else.
Joining the forces broken and just being a drain on the system AND a headache for everyone is shit.


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## lawandorder (13 Mar 2006)

I was informed by the Medical Doctor during my recruitment process that I have flat feet.  First time in 20 years I've ever heard that.  That must explain my shin splints.  If proper stretching is done before long marches then any pain that is there can be tolerated.  I've recently learned that I can A:Get vibram's put on my boots, and/or B: Get custom orthodic mould of my foot for my boot.  I currently have no problem with the boots, I just have a better insole that I bought myself placed in them.  I'm Gellin'.

What would guys recommend.  I hear you guys saying the newer, younger guys shouldn't be getting this stuff, not before the guys with TI at least.  Since I have no problem should I wait until I do have a problem, or just foot the bill myself.


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## ZipperHead (13 Mar 2006)

Law & Order said:
			
		

> I was informed by the Medical Doctor during my recruitment process that I have flat feet.  First time in 20 years I've ever heard that.  That must explain my shin splints.  If proper stretching is done before long marches then any pain that is there can be tolerated.  I've recently learned that I can A:Get vibram's put on my boots, and/or B: Get custom orthodic mould of my foot for my boot.  I currently have no problem with the boots, I just have a better insole that I bought myself placed in them.  I'm Gellin'.
> 
> What would guys recommend.  I hear you guys saying the newer, younger guys shouldn't be getting this stuff, not before the guys with TI at least.  *Since I have no problem should I wait until I do have a problem, or just foot the bill myself.*



I think that everyone here agrees that nobody should have to try to fix something after the fact. The fact is that the CF gives a "one size fits all" solution to a problem that has many sizes. Granted, the MK III is an acceptable general purpose boot (hence why it is still in service) for general purposes. It needs to be modified and/or customized to fit the individual. A $600 boot that doesn't fit your foot is $600 poorly spent. 

IMO, there should be one (or two) pair(s) of Mk III's issued to one and all, and from there, it's up to the individual to purchase from a range of CF/CFMS/Martha Stewart (just kidding on the last one) approved boots (a la the US system, if I understand it correctly) if they want to look after themeselves. Call it two-tiered foot care, call it what you want, but that would allow pers to do "the right thing" for themselves. When a person wants glasses, they can choose the freebie "birth control" glasses (so called, 'cause you ain't gettin' laid wearing them) or upgrade (out of their own wallet) to something more fashionable/stylish. Why not the same for boots?!? 

Again, we are getting sidetracked from the issue at hand: the CF isn't a health care program, designed to take a broken person (from civvy street) and try to fix them, or accomodate pre-existing (known) ailments/maladies/conditions to the detriment of the fighting capability. If a person spends more time in the UMS than on the hangar floor (or the office, or the shop, etc) they are a liability, not an asset. Get well, or get out. That's heartless, but that's life.

Al


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## Glorified Ape (13 Mar 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> 
> Not everyone is going to love the MK3s but the army isn't known for buying the best out there. I'm sure if we bought the top of the line $600 a pair boots some people would still dislike them and require something different.   I can see why the army is not in a rush to go and purchase danners (or whatever) for everyone out of basic (imagine the money wasted on people who only do one engagement?) but i think it would be a good idea to atleast throw vibrim soles on all the Mk3s. Good compromise.



True enough - I think a major issue for most peple with problems with the MkIIIs is simply that they don't provide sufficient cushioning. From what I understand of stress fractures (a seemingly common phenomenon), this can be a major contributing factor. 



> Glorified Ape in your case I have two opinions. On one hand joining the army with a foot condition seems a little crazy but by the sounds of it you're able to soldier on without much difficulty. Your disadvantaged more than the average guy but it doesn't sound that bad.



I gave it plenty of thought when thinking of joining and made sure I was completely open and honest about my feet with the medics/doctors during application because I had no desire to waste the CFs time (and money) or mine. My condition isn't restrictive at all - I actually have fewer serious problems with my feet than alot of those I've trained with - I've never (to my knowledge) had stress fractures or shin splints and both of those seemed as common as brown eyes in IAP/Basic. I have no problem keeping standard (or better) with these feet and MkIIIs.The issue for me is more that of discomfort. I don't mean regular old "my feet hurt" pain - I'm well versed with that having lived with these feet. The issue is that I end up teetering on the outside of my feet because the sole is too narrow and the side has caved out. Combined with all my weight getting carried by 1/3rd of my foot (that's what the orthotics correct) as a result of the boot mould and the way I walk, it can get bloody painful. With orthotics and a proper boot/sole, I'll likely have no more problems (or even fewer) than your regular joe. 

This isn't as much of a problem in garrison (that's where the cushioning problem kicks in) but on uneven terrain in the field, it takes little more than a small rock to roll my ankle over because of the way the boot has moulded over time. My ankles have toughened up over the course of my life and so they don't sprain from things that would generally sprain a regular ankle, but such uneveness (in these boots) just make my ankles hurt like a b----. It gets to a point where my feet and ankles are absolutely killing me. It doesn't affect my performance - I'll keep trucking until something breaks, but it's a constant thorn in the side beyond what should be there. 



> The problem people are the ones who hit the MIR on week 1 of their basic training and CONTINUE with their MIR visits for the remainder of their career.  They have perminate chits limiting them from a myriad of duties. No marching. No lifting. No load bearing. No this or that.
> Getting hurt while in the service is one thing.



I've been to the MIR once while on course and I ensured I received no chit (all I wanted were some anti-inflammatories for a swollen ankle and I wasn't allowed to have non-authorized drugs) because I didn't want to be one of those MIR commandos. Even making that single trip (well into the course) damaged my ego and I felt like a dink because of it. I'd tried to bring the swelling down in our off-hours through ice, compression, and elevation but it wouldn't work. 

I can't stand the MIR commandos, especially in regards to feet. If my feet can hack it, 99% of others should be able to (excepting major injuries). My feet are about the worst worst-case-scenario you can get but I've never played the MIR frequent-flyer card and never, EVER want to. All I want is to be able to carry on doing my training and job without the constant, unrelenting pain. 



> Joining the forces with a condition, yours for example, and over comming it is something else.
> Joining the forces broken and just being a drain on the system AND a headache for everyone is crap.



That's really what I don't want to be. If it was just regular, common discomfort then I'd just hump it and deal. I can hump it and deal with the way it is now too, but if it's possible to get as close to normal as possible, I'll take it. Don't get me wrong, this isn't about avoiding the pain everyone else has to put up with, it's about trying to bring my level down to what's "normal". If some vibrams and orthotics save me injury/impediment further on down the road, then I'll be a more efficient soldier because of it. I'd rather cost the system nothing, but if it takes $300 bucks now to prevent $3000 dollars later down the road, I'll do it and swallow my pride. I'd buy this stuff myself but 300 or 400 bucks is beyond what I can afford on Ocdts pay. The last thing I want on my upcoming CAP/PHIII/PHIV infantry this year is to be some MIR schmuck, even if my injuries are legitimate.  

Edit: That was way too long a reply - sorry. I just wanted to get my point across as best I could, without sounding like some whiney "oh but my feet hurt a bit" wanker.


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## Britney Spears (13 Mar 2006)

Look folks, I understand that our recent history has put us all in an austerity mindset but we ARE a first world army, and in a first world army the most valuable assets are the trained, experienced soldiers themselves. The army has spent $100k just turning me into a one hook pte, is it really cost effective for me to "break" myself and DAG red because the army doesn't want to give me a $25(cost to army=Boot cost($100) less cost of MK3 boot($75? $60?)) pair of boots? Ghost how many CarlG rounds have you fired in your career? How do the cost of those rounds compare to the cost of a pair of gucci boots? The cost of items like boots and and vibram soles even if they cost $600 are PEANUTS compared to the value of a trained, medically fit soldier, never mind an officer or Sr NCO and if we have to give out 10 pairs of freeloader boots to prevent the loss of one soldier who genuine needed it we are still coming out ahead. Let's not miss the forest for the trees here.


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## George Wallace (14 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> ......... because the army doesn't want to give me a $25(cost to army=Boot cost($100) less cost of MK3 boot($75? $60?)) pair of boots?



My Math isn't too good, but something don't jive here:

$25 for $100 boots because the $100 boots are only $25 more than $75 MK3s.........  ???

I see it as $75 MK3s that are already bought, plus the $100 gucci boots, totalling $175.

Why do I have a difference of $150 in my answer from what you proposed in your example   ???

My answer seems to be 7 X Yours    ???


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## Britney Spears (14 Mar 2006)

> I see it as $75 MK3s that are already bought, plus the $100 gucci boots, totalling $175.



Already bought but as yet unissued, thus not accounted as cost, right? And since apparently there are a healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value.


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## TCBF (14 Mar 2006)

Actually, given that the Gucci's mean 1 LESS pair of stock Mk IIIs will be used, it works out.

Hey how about us going nuts trying to get new OG 107 combats in the 90s, and when time comes to go to the new relish, the Navy has WAREHOUSES full of brand new old stuff.  

Unification, my butt.

Tom


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## George Wallace (14 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Already bought but as yet unissued, thus not accounted as cost, right? And since apparently there are a healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value.



Exactly.....already bought, and counted as Cost.  Add on all your new gucci boots and it doesn't matter how many "healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value." you may find, you have put two to three times the amount of cost and strain onto the Supply System.

I know....it has to be the New Math......that is why the New Army is so screwed.......because of all the New guys with the New Math.   :boring:


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## TCBF (14 Mar 2006)

We can just get a Hornet do do 30 seconds less on full afterburner next week, and it will all work out.


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## Britney Spears (14 Mar 2006)

> Exactly.....already bought, and counted as Cost.  Add on all your new gucci boots and it doesn't matter how many "healthy number of troops who seem to like the silly things, the MK3 boots can still be issued and thus retain their full value." you may find, you have put two to three times the amount of cost and strain onto the Supply System.



No, a pair of boots bought but not issued would be an ASSET, because it's still in stores and you haven't USED IT UP yet. Cost would imply that there was no further value left in the boot once you bought it, which plainly is not the case.

Why don't we assign the pair of unissued boots a depreciation value too? and a salvage value based on what it would cost to sell as surplus, and assign it a portion of the cost of the warehouse used to store it, the salary of the supply tech who hands it out, the present value of the one less pair of boot the army has to buy next year based on a 5% cost of capital......We can nit pick this all day but that really isn't my point.


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## George Wallace (14 Mar 2006)

Our Supply System can your people like you.


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## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2006)

> MIR commandos



That word always irks me 
Soldiers with valid injuries get shamed with being called an "mir commando" yet the REAL commandos don't give a shit WHAT you call them. The MIR is a free ticket and they don't care how they get in line, as long as they are there heh.

I've been to the MIR enough times myself. Broken ribs, cracked ribs, dislocated shoulder (3 times), burned fingers, rolled ankles, CLP in my eye, cuts and stitches etc..  What gets me, which i've bitched about before, is the guys who show up on a tasking (or posting maybe?) and hit the MIR on day 1.  Umm I'm broken I can't do PT.  Some guys ARE injured, some guys milk the system. *ie* a soldier with a no PT chit for 6 months laughing at our platoon running by doing PT bragging about how good breakfast was when we ran by her.

Brittany Spears- How many carl G rounds have I fired in my 10 years, at  $10'000 (?) a pop?  I think quite a few, more than the average reservist. I'd say betwene 6 and 8?

Are there better boots out there? of course.  Could we afford better boots then the MK3s? Probably.  Which exact boots we should get would take years to decide I'm sure and like I said even then people will call them shit.
Maybe we could use some kind of buy your own boots for under $400 and be reinbursted? I don't know, i'd be down for that idea.  I'm not going to say the MK3s are without problems. I'd have loved the army to buy my magnum stealths or put on vibrim soles for free. I'm not saying we can't get better or don't deserve it.  The problem here is that people who DON'T specifically require special footwear, screw the system and get them anyways - when like many others they can make due. 
And I think a problem that comes along with that is if you can screw the system for nicey boots why not screw the system for something else?
Lie about a healthy problem to get nice boots
Lie about something to get extra leave
Lie about something to get taken off a tour you dont feel like going on.
Lie about a boss causes he's an idiot and you dont wanna deal with him
It's a matter of integrity.


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## Britney Spears (14 Mar 2006)

No disagreement about the integrity part, but as I have tried to illustrate the entire problem can be avoided at minimal cost by reforming the scale of issue and/or switching to a more modern boot design. The only reason I need special boots is that with my orthotics(prescribed by my civvy podiatrist and purchased at my own expense) I simply cannot fit my foot into a MK3. This problem would not exist if the laces on the 3s extended down  past the arch of the foot like all modern boot designs(e.g.CWWB) do, but they don't so I'm "SOL". I am also taking issue with the posters who feel that  one must be "broken" or have 10 years in before they "deserve" to have special issue boots. The cost/benefit ratio of new boots vs broken troops makes this uneconomical, not to mention mean-spirited and morale crushing.


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## TCBF (14 Mar 2006)

I had no real problems with boots until we went "Mondopoint" in 81 or so.  The sizes changed and  they never told us, and I walked Pangnirtung Pass in a pair of boots that - once wet - allowed the sole to ride up the side of my boots.

Medic: "Why are your boots on sideways?"

Me: "Very funny."

An old retired Guardsman working QM in Cornwallis the next summer took pity on the new instructor, and gave me the best fitting boots I ever had - Mark IIIs in 7 1/2 - 8C.

But, they have to be Sunbeams, Grebs are even tighter across the arch, and I did Nijmegan in brand new 8 1/2 Ds one year because the Grebs crippled me.  So did the bigger boots, but I put 200 km on them in four days...

I, too, wear orthotics, and had to ask the QM here at Wainwright to do the 'spray your boots with alcohol, put the turnscrews under the arch inside the boots and leave over night trick' or I could not wear my orthotics.  

Before I discovered they had such a device, I dreamed of inventing one.  I used to spray 'Spray Pam' on my boots, then wear them.  The alcohol in the spray Pam loosened the arch and my foot then expanded it, until my feet just got tired of doing it.    A good friend of mine (since deceased) who was a ball player used to spray pam his new gloves - glove the ball about a hundred or so times, then masking tape the glove around the ball overnight.  He said "Try it on the boots."

It worked.


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## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2006)

Pisses me off that the boot sizes change. I got a new pair of MK3s and without trying them on (my fault I supose, i've always been a 7F) I paid $80 to put vibrim soles on them and come me trying them on, they are too small.




> I am also taking issue with the posters who feel that  one must be "broken" or have 10 years in before they "deserve" to have special issue boots. The cost/benefit ratio of new boots vs broken troops makes this uneconomical, not to mention mean-spirited and morale crushing.



Agreed. I still feel it's a matter of integrity.

A 10 year "vet" who kills his knees and back.
A determined soldier who has feet/knee issues who will bennifit from nice boots which help him soldier on.
A brand new soldier who just wants highspeed boots.
I can think of 2 out of 3 people who deserve it more.

I agree that it's a matter of economics. It's better to give a soldier better boots to save themselves greif over the next 10 or 15 years. You'll save money in the long run.
It's less economical to dish out the same boots to a guy who's gonna quit after 2 or 3 years.  Problem is how do you tell who's who.


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## TCBF (14 Mar 2006)

Remember that boots - like anything else - are built within specs.  The tighter the specs - the more expensive the product.  If there are five machines producing a size 9 boot, they will all be diffenent sizes - but most likely still within spec.  You take Grebs size 7, and the new pair don't fit?  Try a few other pair of the same size - they might.  If not, see if they have any in that size from another contractor.


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## ZipperHead (14 Mar 2006)

I think a part of the "new math" equation that hasn't been taken into account (and Armyvern can correct me if I'm wrong here) is that when something like a "combat" boot is bought for the whole CF (in other words, it's not just for those that would do combat (i.e the combat arms)), that is a goodly number. Let's say 60,000 (which I always hear in the news). Multiply that by 2 (2 pairs per individual). That's 120,000. There must be a "magic" number for replacements, extras, etc. Let's say 25% (a nice round number). That's 30,000. Total=150,000. Multiply by $200. I pulled that number square out of my ass, but I'm sure the Mk III is in that ballpark (MILSPEC, somebodies pocket getting padded, made from the finest Corinthian leather......). That's 30 MIILLLLLIIIIOOOONNNNN (said like Dr Evil from Austin Powers) dollars. 

Granted, when you are talking the difference between $30M and $45M (assuming that a Gucci pair of boots would cost 50% more), that isn't a lot of cabbage (in the big picture), but the Gucci boots will have their detractors (you can never please everybody.....), and the new Gucci boots will then "need" to be replaced by people who hate the Mk IV's (or whatever the "new" boots are designated). And around and around it goes. 

Don't get me wrong: I would be glad to see the last of the Mk III's. I would also be glad to see the day that a soldier can purchase (with a boot allowance perhaps) their own boots (from a range of approved boots: orthopedically sound, durable, quality footware). Of course, the system would still have to provide an initial issue (for recruits and those too cheap to put out any money required, or those that are 100% satisfied by the existing boot). Will that day come soon? My grandchildren will probably be on their retirement posting before that happens.

Al


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