# What does a 2IC REALLY do?



## ARMY_101 (25 Oct 2013)

This is a question I've been thinking about, and even with PLQ I don't feel I can provide a sound doctrine-based answer.

In combat situations (e.g. a section attack) we know what the 2IC does: keep the section in line, take over for the IC when needed, control Assault Group 2, ammo cas during the consolidation, etc.

But what about non-combat situations, especially for the vast majority of the Forces not working within the combat arms?  What does a 2IC _do_?  What does an Orderly Room 2IC do? Or a Med Tech 2IC? Or a Veh Tech 2IC? Following the combat arms-style 2IC, are they the "mother" of those they supervise: tracking appointments, making sure everyone's fitness is up to date, etc? Are they more of an advisor to the next rank up?

Are there different 2IC responsibilities in the normal work setting as opposed to the combat arms field setting?

I can't find any doctrine that says "2IC does this, Section Commander does this, etc." Instead, it seems that most positions/appointments are defined by that position's predecessor(s). So if the old 2IC tracked leave, then the new 2IC should track leave too. Alternatively, each unit can define their expectations of their 2ICs, but this leads to varying standards between units.

It strikes me that there should be some formal Terms of Reference for each position and trade, beyond their combat role.

Thoughts?


----------



## Towards_the_gap (25 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> This is a question I've been thinking about, and even with PLQ I don't feel I can provide a sound doctrine-based answer.
> 
> In combat situations (e.g. a section attack) we know what the 2IC does: keep the section in line, take over for the IC when needed, control Assault Group 2, ammo cas during the consolidation, etc.
> 
> ...



There are formal 'Terms of Reference' for each position and trade, beyond the combat role - it's called PDR Part I. It spells out what is expected of you. Is it completely different for each trade and unit? Absolutely. Surely you've signed one before?

If we made a cookie-cutter 2IC job description we'd all have jack boots and funny looking helmets. Hitler was a 2IC (Lance Corporal).....Hmm.

But I digress, if you are really fretting over this, you could really bend the envelope, think outside the box, and...... ask someone in your chain of command. I'm thinking your own 2IC/Section commander. They will likely give you the same answer I will give you - Act as the IC in their absence, and do what the IC and Pl 2IC tell them to. Simples.


----------



## ARMY_101 (26 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> There are formal 'Terms of Reference' for each position and trade, beyond the combat role - it's called PDR Part I. It spells out what is expected of you.
> 
> ask someone in your chain of command.



Unfortunately both of these suggestions are in-house answers. Who controls the PDR part one? The unit. I was looking for a higher-level definition.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (26 Oct 2013)

For a position that is so widely varied from unit to unit as to the duties and responsibilities in a garrison setting, why wouldn't a Part I PDR suffice? What do you think should be in place in stead?


----------



## Shamrock (26 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately both of these suggestions are in-house answers. Who controls the PDR part one? The unit. I was looking for a higher-level definition.



Have you checked the OS?  That should have a list of tasks.


----------



## CombatDoc (26 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately both of these suggestions are in-house answers. Who controls the PDR part one? The unit. I was looking for a higher-level definition.


You're not likely to get a higher level definition, since your question is too generic. While you seem to be using the term 2IC at the section level, 2IC's exist all the way up the chain of command.  For example, 2IC at the Battalion level is the DCO, 2IC of the Army is the Deputy Commander, etc.  Their job is to support their boss to accomplish the assigned mission, as others have already noted.  AFAIK, this is not part of "doctrine" but perhaps some of the staff college graduates will provide further insight.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Oct 2013)

LCpl Bannister should give you a good idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFnTiacaDU


----------



## ARMY_101 (27 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> For a position that is so widely varied from unit to unit as to the duties and responsibilities in a garrison setting, why wouldn't a Part I PDR suffice? What do you think should be in place in stead?



There's already doctrine in place that establishes that a unit shall have a CO, an RSM, a Platoon 2IC, etc. Why can't that be expanded to say a CO does _this_; an RSM does _this_; a Platoon 2IC does _this_; and so on?


----------



## GnyHwy (27 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately both of these suggestions are in-house answers. Who controls the PDR part one? The unit. I was looking for a higher-level definition.




The Pt 1 PDR for all 2ICs no matter what your job should be consistent throughout your corps.   If it is not than someone isn't dong it right.  If it is not, they would have no baseline to compare you against your peers.  I would reason that all 2IC PDRs up to and including 2IC of the unit i.e. Bn, would be consistent throughout your corps.

Once above Bn, there are not that many of them anyway, and certain reasons whether operational or strategic would make them unique.

It is only when you get certain extra regimental positions that it becomes confusing.  How do you compare a Sgt in St. Jean who may be a 2IC of a plt looking after 100 newbs, to a Sgt of a Bn that may be 2 IC of plt in garrison that is doing nothing?  Very different roles and responsibilities, yet they are merited against each other.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (27 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> There's already doctrine in place that establishes that a unit shall have a CO, an RSM, a Platoon 2IC, etc. Why can't that be expanded to say a CO does _this_; an RSM does _this_; a Platoon 2IC does _this_; and so on?



Why should it need to be? What is broke that needs fixing?

The reason I ask is I spent 11 1/2 years in two commonwealth armies, the majority of that time as a 2IC, and not once was I unsure of what my roles were in garrison or in the field. I just don't see the need for some sort of bible of 2ICmanship.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Oct 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> There's already doctrine in place that establishes that a unit shall have a CO, an RSM, a Platoon 2IC, etc. Why can't that be expanded to say a CO does _this_; an RSM does _this_; a Platoon 2IC does _this_; and so on?



Because those would then be TT&Ps, and as others have already stated, Environments, Corps, Branches, Formations and Units have already established enough higher level framework that to add any further detail would either be pedantic, or actually result in administrative burden to the effective running of the unit.  For the most part, the CAF actually tries to build on initiative and competence using principles of Mission Command and other 

As a 2IC, I'd be surprised if your TORs would be anything other than:  "To assist the IC in the conduct of....[cut and paste ICs TORs]."

...or perhaps there are a whole bunch of 2ICs out there who actually need a 3IC to help them help the IC?  :dunno:


Regards
G2G


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Oct 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...or perhaps there are a whole bunch of 2ICs out there who actually need a 3IC to help them help the IC?  :dunno:



....or perhaps "ARMY_101" can't think outside of the box and therefore if it isn't written down......


----------



## MedCorps (27 Oct 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> LCpl Bannister should give you a good idea:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFnTiacaDU



Good set of videos.  A fine reminder of why I left the RCIC... my knees and back ached the entire time I watched the series of three videos.  Thanks for posting. 

MC


----------



## George Wallace (27 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ....or perhaps "ARMY_101" can't think outside of the box and therefore if it isn't written down......



 ;D

If you don't get outside the box, how can you read the label on it?


----------



## Shamrock (28 Oct 2013)

How is this...

Develop Subordinates IAW Army-specific PD Requirements
Recommend Personnel for Army Honours, Awards and Recognition Programs
Integrate Self into Army Team
Promote Army Ethos
Promote Army Customs, Traditions and Institutions
Apply Army Succession Planning Process
Provide input to the Army Business Planning Process
Contribute to Army structure development and review processes
Contribute to Army Capability Development
Contribute to Army Knowledge Management Processes


----------



## Old Sweat (28 Oct 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> How is this...
> 
> Develop Subordinates IAW Army-specific PD Requirements
> Recommend Personnel for Army Honours, Awards and Recognition Programs
> ...



or Defeat the enemy!


----------



## Towards_the_gap (28 Oct 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> How is this...
> 
> Develop Subordinates IAW Army-specific PD Requirements
> Recommend Personnel for Army Honours, Awards and Recognition Programs
> ...



My goodness, this tops every ridiculous thing I've seen come out of the post-Afghan army. 

Stick with 'defeat the enemy, keep the troops busy'.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (28 Oct 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> How is this...
> 
> Develop Subordinates IAW Army-specific PD Requirements
> Recommend Personnel for Army Honours, Awards and Recognition Programs
> ...



That is in fact the job of a 2 ic....of the Army


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2013)

In addition to everything else, the best 2ICs I 've had always made sure that I was doing my job well. That's how me and my bosses mainly evaluated their performance.

That, and a 'good show on the Bren'!


----------



## Shamrock (29 Oct 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> That is in fact the job of a 2 ic....of the Army



Pulled from the NCMGS for the rank of MCpl.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (29 Oct 2013)

Doctrine is a good guide for discerning folks, as it captures tested collective experience of an enduring nature. It should not be applied without thought, but it is a great starting point.

If you read B-GL-309-003/FP-001 (Infantry Platoon and Section in Operations) it gives a breakdown of duties for pretty much everyone in a platoon. The roles of a section 2IC are:

    a.    command the section in absence of the section comd

    b.    control the distribution of ammo, rations, water and other supplies

    c.    assist the section comd in training the section

    d.    assist the section comd in maintaining discipline within the sect

In practice, those four duties have many tasks and activities within them. Commanding the section in the absence of the section comd is huge. This can be temporary, such as during periods of battle procedure when the sect comd is away and the 2IC is running the sect in charge of concurrent activity. It could be permanent, such as when the sect comd is a casualty or moves up the chain to replace another NCO. The control of ammo, rations etc is also a very important role. This takes the burden, but not the responsibility, off the sect comd.

A good 2IC of *any* army organization will execute duties a, c and d above. Most will have some aspect of b, especially if it extends to administration. I would not want centralized control of PDR Pt 1s. Unit COs own this. They will use their judgement in combination with existing practices and doctrine to ensure that their subordinates are assigned the appropriate duties and are aware of their responsibilities. In the case of a rifle platoon, I would expect that the PDR Pt 1 for a Sect 2IC would encapsulate the four duties above, perhaps with some details fleshed out along with some other responsibilities as deemed appropriate.

Cheers,

T2B


----------



## GnyHwy (29 Oct 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Pulled from the NCMGS for the rank of MCpl.



That doesn't surprise me.  I remember the first time I read the PER writing guide.  The examples for criteria justifying an MOI to MCpl would have been hard pressed for CWO to pull off.


----------



## ArmyRick (29 Oct 2013)

From an infantry perspective. Keeping it simple and based on my experiences as an Infantry WO (Qualified as a CSM). 
There is doctrinal stuff we can go on and on about, but lets go off some practical real life experiences.

Section 2IC
This is a key job and leadership development position IMO. I think alot of infantry battalions and regiments on ex have senior CPLs acting in this position without the PLQ, but it serves as good PD.
-Section 2IC ram rods the section alot. The section commander will be at O groups alot or planning his own battle procedure out and does not have time to closely pull things together
-In Battle procedure, the sect 2IC should link up with both his sect comd and PL 2IC and coordinate the section level battle procedure to his extent. Admin such as water, ammo, rats, stores, vehicle prep is vital. Rehearsals if time permits and if Sect 2IC understands enough of the mission at hand. 
-On an actual mission, 2IC assist with command and control (A biggy) especially since some operations can have alot of moving parts and even the most experienced section commanders can't be everywhere and watch everything. Sect 2IC ensures during/post battle that ammo/cas is prepared and takes care of "battle admin" (Ammo, Casualty, PW). Let the section commander deal with preparing to fight the next battle. In this job, you and the PL WO will know each other well.
-On routine day to day life on tour and back in Canada, I expect Sect 2ICs to "muckle" onto less than experienced (or performing or motivated) and get those soldiers up to speed. He/she may tasks a switched on senior troopy to do it or do it themselves. Make sure it is done. As a Sergeant, you have too much going on in a unit to re-train or baby sit weaker soldiers.
-At all times, keep an eye on how the soldiers in the section are doing and advise section commander when things are going for a dirt dive.

Always be loyal to your chain of command. If your sergeant behaves in a way NOT accetable, speak to your PL WO about it propmtly. It may be an issue or just a personality clash. If its a personality clash, suck it up and deal with it.

Next some PL WO insight


----------



## ArmyRick (29 Oct 2013)

PL 2IC (Or PL WO though not always a WO)

This is another key job in the army. First thing to understand. Officers are responsible for command and control. WO and NCO make it happen. In the infantry doctrine, the only time an NCO is a commander is a Sergeant, Infantry Section Commander. Beyond that, you actually slide down the chain. For example, a WO in a fully staffed Platoon is 2IC, then as a MWO in the role of CSM you are after all the officers in the company, etc, etc. Many people mistakenly think a CSM for example takes over after an OC, Coy 2IC and LAV Capt go down. He doesn't and it is not his job unless all officers are done for.

PL WO (Not formal duties)
-The PL WO sets the tone in terms of conduct, bearing, discipline for his whole platoon
-The PL WO sort of "mentors" new officers to the battalion but in such a way as to empower, not humiliate the new 2LTs. 
-The PL WO deals with any and all disciplinary problems brought to his attention (Always bring any potential disciplinary incident to CoC, something may not be disciplinary and may in fact be criminal, a good WO knows where to find the answer if he doesn't know it)
-The PL WO mentors and develops the Section commanders. He also pulls any overly enthusiastic SGT who is stepping on PL COMD toes and discretely lets him know whats up and whats not
-PL WO is damn well on PT, in the field and on BFT. YOU must lead by example. This doesn't mean you need to outrun a platoon of 20-25 year olds, but your on PT and driving it just as hard
-The PL WO has the job knowledge and understands in detail all platoon weapons and kit. Not familiar, self imposed PD.
-During battle procedure, get sect 2IC all the goodies they need to function, understand the warning order, relay said warning order, supervise prep and carry out rehearsals. Do not hesitate in long drawn out battle procedure to check in on PL COMD (Make sure he/she eats, coffee, etc).
-During the mission, PREPARED to take over at any time PL Comd goes down. MUST stay SA at all times. Ensure ammo, cas, PW are dealt with, coordinate efforts with CSM
-Keeps in touch with CQ on state of PL stores 
-Step back every now and then, ask troops how they are doing. Know whats going on with the morale state of the platoon
-Got a real issue with your PL COMD? Think the mission is ridcolous and out to lunch? Think work load on the troops is too hard? Go see the CSM and ask for a private talk. Be prepared to be told to suck it up.

PL WO is a down right exhausting and tough job, but the rewards are a platoon that functions smoothly. And your troops will know it and think highly of you.


----------

