# Rules on wearing individual uniform pieces outside of military events?



## neufy_arty (5 Dec 2004)

I was just wondering what the rules where on wearing, say, my combat boots or my parka (without any epilets or patches on it) outside of military functions. This being for a situation where it makes sense, like its -40 C out and i like my issue parka over my civvie jacket.


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## my72jeep (5 Dec 2004)

As I read the dress regs. the wearing of uniform pieces with civi clothes is limited to gloves boots scarf overcoat with out any rank or unit markings. hope that helps.


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## Michael Dorosh (5 Dec 2004)

neufy_arty said:
			
		

> I was just wondering what the rules where on wearing, say, my combat boots or my parka (without any epilets or patches on it) outside of military functions. This being for a situation where it makes sense, like its -40 C out and i like my issue parka over my civvie jacket.



If the parka was purchased privately, you are allowed to wear it with civvie clothes without insignia.  If it was issued to you, you cannot wear it outside of official duty.  We had a private in our unit pull out two shotgun shells while standing in the company orderly room and announce (in front of the sergeant major)  : that he must have forgotten to take them out after he went hunting.

I admired the Sergeant Major's restraint, really.  The private in question was treated fairly, and without a lot of commotion.  But it gave the CSM the chance to highlight a couple of things (I believe the CQMS chimed in also).  

a) issue kit is provided for the use of a soldier in government service - ripping it on a farmer's barbed wire fence while hunting would be a huge waste of money for the taxpayer

b) ammunition is strictly controlled in the Forces (see the CF Code of Conduct for mention of this).  Soldiers of the CF are prohibited from using anything but issue ammunition.  They also swear on leaving ranges etc. not to be taking ammunition with them, so had he gone to the range with his civvie shotgun ammo on him and kept it there during his declaration...  

The last may be a bit of a stretch, but not much.

So, no, you cannot wear stuff that is issued to you unless you are on duty.  You are allowed to use stuff purchased by you, but cannot have any insignia on it, nor can you represent yourself as being on duty.

Common sense, really.  The issue stuff is nice, but the taxpayers are counting on us not to abuse their trust.  We have soldiers on deployment who sometimes don't have enough "stuff", how unfair is it to trash issue kit out on civvie street and expect the Army to pay for replacements?  That's no better than stealing their rations or ammo as far as I am concerned.


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## Torlyn (5 Dec 2004)

What about wearing uniforms at functions such as weddings, etc?  How does that work?

T


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## Eowyn (5 Dec 2004)

Torlyn said:
			
		

> What about wearing uniforms at functions such as weddings, etc?   How does that work?
> 
> T


My understanding it that you have to request, through the Chain of Command, permission from the CO.


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## Michael Dorosh (5 Dec 2004)

Torlyn said:
			
		

> What about wearing uniforms at functions such as weddings, etc?  How does that work?
> 
> T



You need permission from your Commanding Officer.  I think requests like that generally go through the company sergeant major or RSM - put your request up through the chain of command.   

You aren't allowed to wear uniform to certain events - like political fund raisers for example.  Weddings are probably ok (people may wonder why you want to), unless it is an Aryan Nations wedding or something that would bring discredit to the CF were you to appear in uniform.  But  I believe that is up to your CO to decide.


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## the 48th regulator (5 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> You need permission from your Commanding Officer. I think requests like that generally go through the company sergeant major or RSM - put your request up through the chain of command.
> 
> You aren't allowed to wear uniform to certain events - like political fund raisers for example. Weddings are probably ok (people may wonder why you want to), unless it is an Aryan Nations wedding or something that would bring discredit to the CF were you to appear in uniform. But I believe that is up to your CO to decide.




I wore our regimental   blues to my wedding as did my best man with our medals, sash, and kilt.   And sorry to break the news we weren't part of any aryan nation and there was no cross burning either hehehe.   As Micheal explained I did ask permission from the C.O, I just went throught the RSM.

tess


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## neufy_arty (6 Dec 2004)

Thanks a lot for the answers, and you also answered the question i had (but hadnt asked) about wearing DEUs at weddings


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## Blakey (6 Dec 2004)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/017-04_e.asp
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch017_e.asp#17.06


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## dano (7 Dec 2004)

At my school, I know of an individual that is not in the CF but his brother is in the reg force.
Apparently his brother got him a CADPAT backpack. Whether it was issued to his brother or his bro got it from QM, I don't know.
Anyway, he wears it at school and its not fake cadpat. 

What exactly does this mean? Can he or his bro get in trouble?


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## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

He is responsible for his kit.  If the pack was issued, and his brother breaks it or something, he'll have to pay for it.  
If he bought it, he can do what he want with it.


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## Big Foot (7 Dec 2004)

[quote author=CF Publication A-AD-265-000/AG-001]*Canadian Forces Dress Instructions from 2001-06-15*
*Wear of Civilian Clothes*
_47. Visible civilian items of apparel shall not be worn my members with any uniform, except where specifically authorized in these instructions. Conversely, items of uniform shall not be worn with civilian attire, except for accessories and garments (e.g., top-coat, raincoat, gloves, scarf and footwear) which do not include any CF insignia and by themselves do not explicitly identify the wearer as a member of the CF._[/quote]
I hope this clears some things up, straight out of CF Dress Regs.


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## foerestedwarrior (8 Dec 2004)

what is a top coat??


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## Big Foot (8 Dec 2004)

I'm assuming gabardine or non-CADPAT jacket


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## Sailing Instructor (14 Dec 2004)

Topcoat is the gabardine.   Topcoats differ from overcoats in that they were originally intended for mildly cool weather whereas overcoats were for winter.   Nowadays, most (civilians) wear those awful baggy trenchcoat-type raincoats in lieu of a proper topcoat.

And I've noticed that our gabardine is woven tightly enough to somewhat repell water!   Nice considering the raincoat is so ugly.


Does anyone else think it's crazy when those Americans appear on _The Price is Right_ or whatever wearing their service dress?   I mean, we all love Bob Barker, but...!   Perhaps it's a statement saying that the US military agrees with the animal-neutering movement because it will keep American uniforms hair-free.

On wearing proper, entire uniforms--from A-AD-265-000/AG-001 (dress instructions):



> 36. Regular Force. Unless otherwise directed,
> all ranks:
> a. on duty shall wear the prescribed uniform;
> and
> b. when not on duty may wear civilian clothes.



Thank God, I'd hate to think I pay $1000 for mess dress and then can't wear it to some white tie civvy ball or whatever.


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## my72jeep (19 Dec 2004)

.
Thank God, I'd hate to think I pay $1000 for mess dress and then can't wear it to some white tie civvy ball or whatever.
If you bought a mess kit it's yours remember you bought it.wear it to a football game if you want.


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## Eowyn (19 Dec 2004)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> .
> Thank God, I'd hate to think I pay $1000 for mess dress and then can't wear it to some white tie civvy ball or whatever.
> If you bought a mess kit it's yours remember you bought it.wear it to a football game if you want.



IIRC you still should ask the CO's permission.  Even though mess dress isn't an uniform (because you bought it), it still is a military order of dress (No 2s, I think).  It could still reflect badly on the CF, if you wore it inappropriately.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Dec 2004)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> If you bought a mess kit it's yours remember you bought it.wear it to a football game if you want.



IIRC you still should ask the CO's permission. Even though mess dress isn't an uniform (because you bought it), it still is a military order of dress (No 2s, I think). It could still reflect badly on the CF, if you wore it inappropriately.

True with Getting the CO's Permission, but if someone was going to go through the trouble of throwing mess dress on, after spending over a grand (Much like ours ugh), just to wear it to an unappropriate function, I highly doubt they would bother to inform their CO.


My question would be what is deemed inappropriate, I have wondered that in the past when it was proper to wear mess dress.  Is it considered simmiar to a tux in that it is considered black tie attire?

Just wondering.  Because I agree if you spend that much, you kinda want tomake more use of it.

tess


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## my72jeep (19 Dec 2004)

It's a military tux any event that fits that type of dress. but i would not wear it to the Liberal re-election fund raiser.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Dec 2004)

hehe I guess not.

But we do have a red mess jacket.....I could always pin on a red rose.

tess


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## Gayson (19 Dec 2004)

I always thought that it was ok to wear DEU's, blues etc to fancy events such as weddings, operas, balls assuming that you have permission from the CO.


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## Sailing Instructor (20 Dec 2004)

Mess dress is equivalent to white tie (otherwise known as an evening suit or dress suit: black tailcoat, pique-front shirt, white waistcoat, & of course a white tie).  However, since the mess is a more relaxed environment (save certain events) like a person's home, mess undress evolved as the formal dress _black tie_ evolved.  This type of undress looses the medals, stiff shirt, waistcoat, & white tie for a soft shirt, cummerbund (esp in hotter areas), and a coloured (usu black which is ironically not a colour) tie probably because it's less maintenance to keep it clean.  The navy has a shipboard mess undress known as 'Red sea rig' which involves a cummerbund & short sleeved shirt with not even a nametag.  This was worn so that changing for dinner in the tropics didn't mean sweating to death in several layers.

Along with the loss of white tie in contemporary Western society (save a few conservative places), and its replacement with black tie, the military, in spite of it's conservativeness, has put black bow ties with the orders of mess dress.  The only expception being the high-collared army mess dress worn by some regiments (& I'm not getting mess dress confused with ceremonial dress, I know they both involve high collars).

Since mess dress is formal only in a mess or at an evening event, it is inappropriate during daylight or before 1800h (this last one's in dress instructions) just as are white & black tie.  Also, one ought not to wear it while on duty unless one's duty involves running some funtion in the mess.  

PS. Tuxedo=dinner suit=black tie.  The last being most appropriate & the first referring to Tuxedo park, NY where black tie was first worn in America.  And no one from Tuxedo calls black tie a tuxedo (essentially because they're snobs!).


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## the 48th regulator (21 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Mess dress is equivalent to white tie (otherwise known as an evening suit or dress suit: black tailcoat, pique-front shirt, white waistcoat, & of course a white tie). However, since the mess is a more relaxed environment (save certain events) like a person's home, mess undress evolved as the formal dress _black tie_ evolved. This type of undress looses the medals, stiff shirt, waistcoat, & white tie for a soft shirt, cummerbund (esp in hotter areas), and a coloured (usu black which is ironically not a colour) tie probably because it's less maintenance to keep it clean. The navy has a shipboard mess undress known as 'Red sea rig' which involves a cummerbund & short sleeved shirt with not even a nametag. This was worn so that changing for dinner in the tropics didn't mean sweating to death in several layers.
> 
> Along with the loss of white tie in contemporary Western society (save a few conservative places), and its replacement with black tie, the military, in spite of it's conservativeness, has put black bow ties with the orders of mess dress. The only expception being the high-collared army mess dress worn by some regiments (& I'm not getting mess dress confused with ceremonial dress, I know they both involve high collars).
> 
> ...



That's exactly what I was looking for

Cheers Instructor

Quick question though, when you say the medals are lost, is that why we wear the miniatures instead of the full medals? As relaxed the tradition was it people still tried to keep the "pomP"?

again thanks mate for the info.

tess


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## Sailing Instructor (21 Dec 2004)

Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.  To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.  I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.  With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of _all_ extras (dressings), save epaulettes.  I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.  The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face.


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## X Royal (21 Dec 2004)

[quote author=Sailing Instructor]
Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.
[/quote]

As someone who has a couple medals maybe I can set you straight. Never has any government money been spent on any of my miniatures. These are bought at the members own expense. As for winning medals they are not generally a competition but usually awarded for services rendered or outstanding deeds.

Pro Patria


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Dec 2004)

They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....


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## my72jeep (21 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.   I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.   With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of _all_ extras (dressings), save epaulettes.   I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.   The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face.


Full size medals on a mess kit now that looks ugly. and too many full size ones would be lost or gambled away in after mess dinner hijinks if we wore them.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Dec 2004)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> IIRC you still should ask the CO's permission. Even though mess dress isn't an uniform (because you bought it), it still is a military order of dress (No 2s, I think). It could still reflect badly on the CF, if you wore it inappropriately.
> 
> True with Getting the CO's Permission, but if someone was going to go through the trouble of throwing mess dress on, after spending over a grand (Much like ours ugh), just to wear it to an unappropriate function, I highly doubt they would bother to inform their CO.
> 
> ...



Mess Kit without the Unit collar dogs or recognized rank is nothing more than a military style tux. Without those accoutrements you can do what you will with it.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....



Michael,

We all know opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. From the amount of people who go out and purchase their own, I'd say there's enough that like them to keep the market very much alive. The same can be said for those that purchase Mess Kit, at their own expense. If they're satisfied, no need to deride them for there choice. It's normally the person who can't or won't spend the money, that come up with derisions to back their claim. That's my opinion anyway. I also have Mess Kit, miniatures and an asshole. ;D


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## the 48th regulator (21 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> They're still butt ugly and look like costume jewelry though....



whoa

They may look that way to you but I can assure you they don't feel that way, at least not to me.



> Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.  To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.  I know that civilians may wear civvy medals/ribbons/awards & awards from previous military service with dress clothes--& I mean the life-size, real medals.  With Red sea rig, the short-sleeved shirt is devoid of all extras (dressings), save epaulettes.  I assume the thinking was that if officers were only dressing for their own wardroom, no one cared what gongs they had.  The nametag is absent from all orders of mess uniform (except the muddled-up mess service uniform) because messmates ought to match a name to your face.



Aww man instructor you were on such a roll too.  Don't get ribbons and miniatures mixed up.  And tust me, to me, the ones I have earned don't look ugly at all....


tess


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Dec 2004)

Tess,

Here, Here. We know what we did for them, that's all that matters.


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## my72jeep (21 Dec 2004)

If I remember the rules Reg force officers have 6 months from commission date to get a mess kit. Reserve members it's optional.


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## Eowyn (22 Dec 2004)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> If I remember the rules Reg force officers have 6 months from commission date to get a mess kit. Reserve members it's optional.



Some how I doubt that.  My Adjt, a Reg F Capt, doesn't have Mess Kit.  I'm sure he's been in the Regs for more than 6 months.


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## Meridian (22 Dec 2004)

When I was in the regs I was told it was optional as well.. most people wanted to get it anyway (used of course...)


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## Sailing Instructor (22 Dec 2004)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Aww man instructor you were on such a roll too.   Don't get ribbons and miniatures mixed up.   And tust me, to me, the ones I have earned don't look ugly at all....



No, don't worry, I'm not getting undress ribbons, medals, & miniature medals mixed up.   Yes, after I wrote that bit about Crown money being wasted on miniatures, I thought that they are probably a private purchase & it makes sense since you only have to wear them with a privately purchased uniform.   Still, I stand by my opinion that they look costumey (are they even metal?).   When did minis come about anyway?   I just don't get why it's important to have two versions of the same thing--undress ribbons I can see the point of, they are slightly less 'in the way' for everyday wear.   

Sorry, I didn't mean one 'wins' medals in the competition sense of the word.   I should have said 'awarded.'   Just a question though: should I be awarded a medal, am I obliged to buy the miniatures for mess dress?   Or can one just leave their jacket blank (or will this result in as much of a penalty at mess dinners as wearing the real medals)?

As for the 6 month from commission time to get mess dress, it is written in dress instructions.   But there may have been a CANFORGEN saying otherwise since that was written.


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## 1feral1 (22 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Not having won any medals, I don't know what's up with the miniatures.   To me, they look ugly and seem like a waste of taxpayers' money.



Hey SI:

As per X Royal's post on page 2, minature medals in the CF are purchased privately, and are worn on mess kit (which you have the privillage to wear from the rank of Sergeant on up), which is also private purchase.

Awards and decorations are earned not only from time in rank, but for recognition of operational/active service, and there is nothing 'ugly' or a 'waste of tax payers money' about that. 

Its a custom and tradition which has been around for a very long time, and after serving almost 29 years in two different armies, this is the first time I have ever heard such foolishness of any medals benig 'ugly' or a 'waste of money' coming from the mouth of a serving CF member, or any serving member from any military force.

I just have two medals, and no matter what the size, or what they are for, both myself and my family are proud of them.

Australian medals come with a minature, and mess kit is issued from Sergeant on up. No one here (that I know) thinks either are a waste of money.

Below is a pic of myself and the 'rebel woman' I live with taken at a 'mixed' dining in night in our Mess. Yes I have my CF minatures on my Aussie issue Mess Kit, as I am proud of my service to Canada, even though I live in another country, serving in another Army.

Shaking head,

Wes

Take the time to think before you post.


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## Michael Dorosh (22 Dec 2004)

I reiterate that the miniature medals look goofy; I certainly wasn't passing judgement of the full size ones.  Perhaps a full rack of medals in miniature look okay; anything fewer than 4 look like something MIchael Jackson would wear to a pajama party.


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## Sailing Instructor (22 Dec 2004)

Having read up on Ch4 of dress instructions, miniatures seem to be for evening dress (even civilian white & black tie) & medals are for daytime dress.  I _think_ this may stem from the 19th century ideal that evening dress is to be uncluttered (which is why it is black & white, etc.).  

Still, I'd rather have medals cluttering up my unform than miniatures.  I stand by the statement that miniatures are ugly.  Thankfully the wear of awards is optional.


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## OLD F of S (22 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor, I have attended formal balls at overseas locations most nations wear
miniture medals, I can tell you for sure at these balls if I didn't wear them the RSM would have had mine.


                       Regards OLD F of S


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## 1feral1 (22 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Thankfully the wear of awards is optional.



Speaking of minatures with mess kit only. Full sized medals are not authorised to be worn with such. There is usually an instruction put out by the RSM (for Mess dinners, dining in nights and other events) on what is to be worn, and with what medals. Failure to comply to a written instruction is an offence, and failure to read and/or ingorance is no excuse

Let me assure you son, awards are not optional to wear if the dress is 'mess kit' As per the above post about the RSM after ya, he truly would be, (what mesage would you be sending to your peers, subordinates, and superiours) and if you didnt have them on the next time, you'd be in for a charge of disobeying an order). An exception of the rule would be if you had recently received a medal, and the minature was not purchased yet.

Besides, anyone of any rank and authority, regardless about what their personal opinion would wear them regardless. I have yet to see any serving member of any force refuse to wear their medals, regardless of their size.

Since, you are only 19, and not near the rank of having mess kit anyways, I guess its no problem, but with an attitude like you have I am sure you'll go a long way in your career.


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## the 48th regulator (22 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I reiterate that the miniature medals look goofy; I certainly wasn't passing judgement of the full size ones.   Perhaps a full rack of medals in miniature look okay; anything fewer than 4 look like something MIchael Jackson would wear to a pajama party.



I only have three Micheal, less than your mandatory 4 minimum to look good, and I am very proud.   I also have a wound stirpe that I don't wear on my mess dress, but since it is not a medal, I still fall under the 4 medal benchmark.



> Still, I'd rather have medals cluttering up my unform than miniatures.   I stand by the statement that miniatures are ugly.   Thankfully the wear of awards is optional.



You are saying this not from experience of being awarded any correct.   WE are not talking about your issued buttons or the collar dogs you wear.   This thread is about the proper use of wearing a uniform, not how ulgly medals are.   

To me miniature, ribbon, full don't make a difference.   They are something I have been given, and proud to wear.   I don't believe the P.C bench mark of minimum qty of medals, for your admiration, justifies a way out of a silly statement.

Hell man, I wore feathers on my head, horse hair on my crotch, sheeps wool wrapped around my as, and You think some small medals look tacky.....


Dileas

tess


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## Sailing Instructor (24 Dec 2004)

I don't know how many times I must say this: I am only stating my personal opinion on the _aesthetics_ of miniature medals vs full medals.  I realise what medals are for & that it is a tradition to wear miniatures with evening dress.  My posts were not a discussion on what is proper wear of a uniform.  For that matter, I dislike many uniform pieces but accept that they are proper issue & will wear them when ordered. 

This _purely aesthetic_ opinion is based only on my limited experience of miniatures (and, for that matter, of full medals).  To me the miniatures look 'phoney,' in that they don't hang as full medals do. Other than that, they are fine.  

I have 2 questions about miniatures, which may change my above opinion: Of what are the miniatures made? And, when & why did miniatures originate (assuming there was originally only one size of medals & miniatures were added later)?

PS. I have bespoken mess dress (still being made), since I so detest the mess service uniform.


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## Radop (30 Dec 2004)

Dano said:
			
		

> At my school, I know of an individual that is not in the CF but his brother is in the reg force.
> Apparently his brother got him a CADPAT backpack. Whether it was issued to his brother or his bro got it from QM, I don't know.
> Anyway, he wears it at school and its not fake cadpat.
> 
> What exactly does this mean? Can he or his bro get in trouble?



The cadpat backpacks were a gift from the bde comds when we departed to afghanistan.  Our roto 0 got regular olive drab ones, roto 1 got cadpad and roto 3 got tan ones.


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## the 48th regulator (31 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> I don't know how many times I must say this: I am only stating my personal opinion on the _aesthetics_ of miniature medals vs full medals. I realise what medals are for & that it is a tradition to wear miniatures with evening dress. My posts were not a discussion on what is proper wear of a uniform. For that matter, I dislike many uniform pieces but accept that they are proper issue & will wear them when ordered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sailing Instructor,

Aesthetics, that is your reason.  They don't hang like the full ones.  Ok fair enough, didn't mean to offend your better sense of fashion.

To answer your question, my miniatures are made of plastic as well as some unknown metal.

To me, and a lot like those who have them, it doesn't matter of the size, material, or what outfit we wear them in, we don't worry about the _aesthetics _ as we are proud of the meaning.

I'll remember that then next time I pin them on my chest, so that I don't offend some other sharp dress fella who has that sharp eye for the army guy.

Dileas


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## Sailing Instructor (31 Dec 2004)

Heh, 'Sharp eye for the army guy.'  I'm glad I'm finally understood (though actually never watched that show, but nevermind).  

Now that I think about it, when I am awarded a medal, I'll undoubtedly like wearing my miniature even though it doesn't hang there quite so nicely as does the medal.

Perhaps I'll look at old miniatures & see if at one time they hung as do  current medals.


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## Big Foot (31 Dec 2004)

as it has been said before, look is not the important part, the meaning behind the minatures is. i really don't care what they look like, as long as i have earned the right to wear it proudly. besides, the mess kit the miniatures are worn on isn't too sharp, either.


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## the 48th regulator (31 Dec 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Heh, 'Sharp eye for the army guy.' I'm glad I'm finally understood (though actually never watched that show, but nevermind).
> 
> Now that I think about it, when I am awarded a medal, I'll undoubtedly like wearing my miniature even though it doesn't hang there quite so nicely as does the medal.
> 
> Perhaps I'll look at old miniatures & see if at one time they hung as do current medals.




hehehe,

man I dig you yer alright hehe, but then again it does say philosophy major under yer avatar.  Don't be using any of the mambo jahambo thought inspiring stuff on me...

better yet, plan a day to teach me to sail (serious) always wanted to learn.

cheers

tess


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## Sailing Instructor (11 Feb 2005)

A clarification:

I was mistaken in my attack against miniature medals.  As I had recently seen one, court-mounted, up close & then seen no court-mounted full-medals, I did not realise that it was the _court-mounting_, not the size of the medal which I thought ugly.  

I now revise my position to state that I find court-mounting unaesthetically-pleasing whereas swing mounting lets the medals 'hang nicely.'  I am also aware that, though the dress instructions do not require court-mounting, there is a CANFORGEN requiring this.  Damn that CANFORGEN.

Also, dress instructions mention that undress ribbons may be sewn on instead of mounted on that metal bar-thingy that attaches to the shirt or jacket.  I rather like the idea of that, too.

Anyway, this is off the original topic.  Just thought I'd clear that up.


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## theseeker (19 Mar 2006)

it has been a while since i was in the reserves and i am still in the CFRC limbo so here goes my question

what are the regulations on wearing you DU to weddings funerals and formal events not CF events.

are they still you need to get permision from the powers at bay.


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## aesop081 (19 Mar 2006)

DEU.......


Distinct environmental uniform

You need authorization...thats why on leave passes it says "authorized to wear uniform YES/NO"


And the expression is "powers that be" i beleive


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## theseeker (19 Mar 2006)

thank you aesop081  for the 2 corrections on DEU and "the powers that be"  and also on the answer to my question.

 :'(


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## Synthos (20 Mar 2006)

what would be the policy with regards to rucksacks? If I wanted to do a ruckmarch on my own time (read: reserves) is that allowed in CF policy?


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Mar 2006)

Synthos said:
			
		

> what would be the policy with regards to rucksacks? If I wanted to do a ruckmarch on my own time (read: reserves) is that allowed in CF policy?



Won't your DEUs get wrinkled?  ???


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## theseeker (20 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Won't your DEUs get wrinkled?  ???



lol good shot Michael Dorosh  good shot  ;D ;D ;D


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## Haggis (20 Mar 2006)

Synthos said:
			
		

> what would be the policy with regards to rucksacks? If I wanted to do a ruckmarch on my own time (read: reserves) is that allowed in CF policy?



I would suggest you go with CADPAT uniform and rucksack.  Why?  Because:

1. there'll be no doubt from anyone as to who/what you are (except maybe some wierd looks from kids) and
2. That's how we do the BFT!

Wanna go one better?  Get some of your buddies to go with you.

Even better yet, ruck into your unit on training nights.  Stuff a few recruiting handouts/business cards in your pockets. Hand 'em out when people ask what you're doing.  You may collect some prospective recruits along the way.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Mar 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I would suggest you go with CADPAT uniform and rucksack.  Why?  Because:
> 
> 1. there'll be no doubt from anyone as to who/what you are (except maybe some wierd looks from kids) and
> 2. That's how we do the BFT!
> ...



The latter part is ok, but are you seroiusly advocating uniform when off duty?  If he's not signed in, should he be in uniform? Sounds like bad advice to me.


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## Danjanou (20 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The latter part is ok, but are you seroiusly advocating uniform when off duty?  If he's not signed in, should he be in uniform? Sounds like bad advice to me.



I'm still picturing him ruck marching into his armouries on a parade night with a trail of potential recruits following him something like a cadpat pide piper. 8)


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## PteGDD (20 Mar 2006)

You have unrestricted use of uniform.  That means being properly dressed as if you were on duty.  You have to conduct yourself in a prfessional CF manner at all times as you represent every soldier, sailor, airman and airwoman, coast tom coast.

"Using your uniform to pick up girls at a bar is not permitted"
-Course WO

However you man wear your uniform in a professional manner at a bar on the way home from being on duty or such and such.

For the use of uniform at weddings/funerals, permission must be granted by your chain of command.  Check your Unit's orders posted somewhere at your respective training facility.  However acception to that is November 11th, Remembrance Day.  In my Unit at least (I imagine it's all of CF) you may wear your uniform on 11-11 without consent.  In fact I'd expect that everyone here attempt to wear and appreciate the Veterans of the past.  You can find me representing freedom in green on 11-11.

PteG


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## aesop081 (20 Mar 2006)

PteGDD said:
			
		

> You have unrestricted use of uniform.


  
Thats not correct.  You can only wear you uniform when authorized to do so.  As a private  you have not been in the CF long enough to remember the days where at some bases...the only authorized uniform off base was DEUs ( no stoping at safeway to do groceries in combats).  Your use of your uniform is regulated by CF orders and directives and therfore not "unrestricted"



> For the use of uniform at weddings/funerals, permission must be granted by your chain of command.



Thats why there is a spot on your leave passes that indicates that you are authorized to wear your uniform when off-duty for the specified period.


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## Jungle (20 Mar 2006)

theseeker said:
			
		

> it has been a while since i was in the reserves and i am still in the CFRC limbo so here goes my question
> 
> what are the regulations on wearing you DU to weddings funerals and formal events not CF events.
> 
> are they still you need to get permision from the powers at bay.


DEUs can be worn without restrictions in Canada. No need for anyone's permission.
The "authorized to wear the uniform" box on the CF-100 relates to foreign travel; look closely.


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## aesop081 (20 Mar 2006)

Jungle said:
			
		

> DEUs can be worn without restrictions in Canada. No need for anyone's permission.
> The "authorized to wear the uniform" box on the CF-100 relates to foreign travel; look closely.



Seen


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## KLAVER (20 Mar 2006)

to wear my deu to my grad i have to bring it up the chain of command, first starting with the csm. 
Do u guys think it is a bad idea?


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## Danjanou (21 Mar 2006)

Brendo_51 said:
			
		

> to wear my deu to my grad i have to bring it up the chain of command, first starting with the csm.
> Do u guys think it is a bad idea?



Your call, it woud depend on how pro/anti military your school is I would think.


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## Haggis (21 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> If he's not signed in, should he be in uniform?



Taking your logic one step further, if he's not signed in (yet) should he be travelling to/from his unit in uniform?

If he's out doing ruck training, is it better for him to train in Reeboks or Mk III's?  Besides, if he's wearing Snoop Dog shorts, a Raptors shirt, Mk III's and a ruck, he'll present a poorer public image than if he were to wear CADPAT instead.

Common sense must prevail.  

CADPAT Pied Piper indeed.  ;D Call it "Getting the Most Return on Your Defence Dollar".


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## dapaterson (21 Mar 2006)

How about a quick look at the QR&Os - important guidance for Reservists particularly on this topic:


*17.06 – WEARING OF UNIFORM – RESTRICTION*

_(1) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member may wear a military uniform of obsolete pattern that is not likely to be confused with current dress, no member shall wear any part of military uniform at a fancy dress ball.

(2) No member of the Reserve Force shall wear uniform except when:

(a) on service; or
(b) attending a military entertainment or a ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.

(3) A former member of the Regular Force or Reserve Force, who was released for a reason other than misconduct may wear uniform:

(a) with the permission of an officer commanding a command or his designated authority and such other officers as may be designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, when attending a military entertainment or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate; and
(b) on other occasions with the permission of the Chief of the Defence Staff._

(Taken from http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch017_e.asp#17.06 at 09h47, 21 Mar 06)

Article 17.04 is also relevant to this discussion.


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Mar 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Taking your logic one step further, if he's not signed in (yet) should he be travelling to/from his unit in uniform?
> 
> If he's out doing ruck training, is it better for him to train in Reeboks or Mk III's?  Besides, if he's wearing Snoop Dog shorts, a Raptors shirt, Mk III's and a ruck, he'll present a poorer public image than if he were to wear CADPAT instead.
> 
> ...



If he's on the way to parade, he is on duty.

We were always told that the regs say you can wear uniform for "brief stopovers" - that means going to work and coming from work. It doesn't mean dressing up like GI Joe to go walk around with your ruck.  I'd have no problem with the Snoop Dog shorts combined with Mk III boots and ruck, and no, I don't think he'd present a poor public image at all.  Whatever that means.


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## George Wallace (21 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> If he's on the way to parade, he is on duty.
> 
> We were always told that the regs say you can wear uniform for "brief stopovers" - that means going to work and coming from work. It doesn't mean dressing up like GI Joe to go walk around with your ruck.  I'd have no problem with the Snoop Dog shorts combined with Mk III boots and ruck, and no, I don't think he'd present a poor public image at all.  Whatever that means.



I agree Michael.  How many in the Bdes in Petawawa, Edmonton, Valcartier, or in Gagetown, have not seen someone out practicing for the BFT after hours dressed in Cbt Boots, PT dress and Ruck?  That is not a poor public image.......maybe a curious one......but not a poor one.


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## Synthos (21 Mar 2006)

so then: 
MK IIIs + conservative dress + rucksack = technically not allowed, but practically allowed? (w.r.t. reservists)


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Mar 2006)

Synthos said:
			
		

> so then:
> MK IIIs + conservative dress + rucksack = technically not allowed, but practically allowed? (w.r.t. reservists)



You can wear your boots and rucksack with any damn thing you want, just not the full uniform. But not to go camping with; if you are doing ruck training on your own time, go for it.


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Mar 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> How about a quick look at the QR&Os - important guidance for Reservists particularly on this topic:
> 
> 
> *17.06 – WEARING OF UNIFORM – RESTRICTION*
> ...



Just noticed this.  I think that nicely summarized what I was saying, thanks for posting it. Ruck training is not "on service."


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## Haggis (21 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Just noticed this.  I think that nicely summarized what I was saying, thanks for posting it. Ruck training is not "on service."



So, if you cannot wear the uniform (or parts thereof... mixed kit and all that jazz...) to do PT, how does a Reservist train on his/her own time for something like a ruck march, Cambrian Patrol, CSOR selection, etc.??  Should not some common sense be applied or is this a cut-and-dried example of "the law is the law"?



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I agree Michael.  How many in the Bdes in Petawawa, Edmonton, Valcartier, or in Gagetown, have not seen someone out practicing for the BFT after hours dressed in Cbt Boots, PT dress and Ruck?  That is not a poor public image.......maybe a curious one......but not a poor one.



On base for a Reg F troop is one thing, but as a Reservist you're doing the deed in the public eye, not within the confines of a supportive and understanding like minded community.



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> If he's on the way to parade, he is on duty.



Ever tried to charge a Class A reservist who hasn't signed in?  Ask a AJAG to define "on duty".  If he hasn't signed a pay sheet he's not "on duty" and, therefore, not subject to the CSD.



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> We were always told that the regs say you can wear uniform for "brief stopovers" - that means going to work and coming from work. It doesn't mean dressing up like GI Joe to go walk around with your ruck.  I'd have no problem with the Snoop Dog shorts combined with Mk III boots and ruck, and no, I don't think he'd present a poor public image at all.  Whatever that means.



If you're gonna train to be a soldier in the public eye than it is beholden upon you to deport yourself like a soldier, not a ruck packin' gangsta rapper.  Our dress regulations state quite clearly that items of military uniforms shall not be combined with civilian clothes.  Boots are issue kit.  The law is the law, right?


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## chrisf (21 Mar 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> So, if you cannot wear the uniform (or parts thereof... mixed kit and all that jazz...) to do PT, how does a Reservist train on his/her own time for something like a ruck march, Cambrian Patrol, CSOR selection, etc.??  Should not some common sense be applied or is this a cut-and-dried example of "the law is the law"?



That's one of the big Catch 22s of Class A fitness isn't it?

The letter of the law says I'm not allowed to use my ruck/combat boots to conduct PT on my own time (Assuming I'm willing to risk the liability inherent in conducting PT on my own time).

If I recall correctly, a CO can issue authorization to wear the uniform for class A reservists outside being signed in (Example, military member attending a funeral, wedding, or military member volunteering with cadets, etc) but a CO isn't going to issue authorization to wear the uniform to conduct PT, well, the might, but I doubt it, again, liabilities an all (To steal a quote from GO!!!, it's hard to do your job when you're covering your ass with both hands)



> If you're gonna train to be a soldier in the public eye than it is beholden upon you to deport yourself like a soldier, not a ruck packin' gangsta rapper.  Our dress regulations state quite clearly that items of military uniforms shall not be combined with civilian clothes.  Boots are issue kit.  The law is the law, right?



I get irritated when I read the threads from the cadet forums and their arguing about whether they should be allowed to wear cadpat uniforms, or other sets of combats, and how to best differentiate themselves from military members, through the use of hat-badges, or different slip ons... unfortunately, I'm perfectly willing to bet if the average Joe Hoser Canadian sees somone in green or camouflaged clothes (Be they cadpat, marpat, woodland, or some bizarre urban scheme) and a pair of black boots, they are assumed to be in the army.

Conversely, I'm willing to bet that somone wearing a pair of combat boots and carrying a ruck, dressed in unrelated civilian attire (Say a pair of hiking shorts and a non-offensive t-shirt) is not going to be assumed to be in the army, at least not by the general population, rather, just a back-packer.

Either way, while the law is the law, the law still requires two parties, the chargee and the charger... anyone (And I'm 100% certain such individuals exist) willing to charge a reservist who's trying to better themselves by conducting PT *in a reasonable manner* simply because "the law is the law" needs to have their priorities re-examined.


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## Michael Dorosh (22 Mar 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> So, if you cannot wear the uniform (or parts thereof... mixed kit and all that jazz...) to do PT, how does a Reservist train on his/her own time for something like a ruck march, Cambrian Patrol, CSOR selection, etc.??  Should not some common sense be applied or is this a cut-and-dried example of "the law is the law"?



They come down to the Armouries properly dressed and sign in.  If they aren't approved for the days, then I guess they don't need to be training, otherwise, the CO would have approved it, hmm?  Though  I believe I recall a case of a unit that approved days for training for such an event that the CO allowed, where the guys showed up in ... PT gear and rucks. 

You don't need to wear your uniform to march with a rucksack, and guess what, since it is against the regs, it's not an issue. Except apparently for you?  Don't get caught I guess is my best advice.   

We had a couple guys geared up for display at the Stampede; they missed the shuttle from the armouries so they walked down to the grounds.  I can't remember if they had weapons or not.  The police got called because someone jittery saw uniformed men walking around.  *shrugs* Six of one, half a dozen of the other.



> On base for a Reg F troop is one thing, but as a Reservist you're doing the deed in the public eye, not within the confines of a supportive and understanding like minded community.



A great reason NOT to wear the uniform if you ask me.



> Ever tried to charge a Class A reservist who hasn't signed in?  Ask a AJAG to define "on duty".  If he hasn't signed a pay sheet he's not "on duty" and, therefore, not subject to the CSD.
> 
> If you're gonna train to be a soldier in the public eye than it is beholden upon you to deport yourself like a soldier, not a ruck packin' gangsta rapper.



If you're on your own time, you're not "training."  Training is duty, and that's on the Queen's nickle. Right?



> Our dress regulations state quite clearly that items of military uniforms shall not be combined with civilian clothes.  Boots are issue kit.  The law is the law, right?



You can wear anything with civvies as long as they don't have insignia on them.  

Push comes to shove, the quick answer is "don't train on your own time."  That's not a very satisfying answer.  So which rule are you going to bend?  The one about wearing boots with your civvies, or the one about wearing the full blown uniform in public when off duty?

I'll go with the boots.



[/quote]


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## dapaterson (22 Mar 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Ever tried to charge a Class A reservist who hasn't signed in?  Ask a AJAG to define "on duty".  If he hasn't signed a pay sheet he's not "on duty" and, therefore, not subject to the CSD.



Haggis:

According to the National Defence Act, if you're in uniform, you are subject to the Code of Service Discipline, regardless of whether you've signed a paysheet.  Quote:

_60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:
...
     (c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is
...
          (ii) in uniform,_

(http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/text.html)

So another argument against doing things in uniform as a reservist while not signed in - you're subject to the CSD and not being paid.


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## 1feral1 (22 Mar 2006)

Really now, in many this thread is geting out of control, and some of the posts are unbelievable. Well MEN and LADIES, there is some things we all have (some more than others), and thats called common sense. Instead of asking the silly questions like a bunch of school-children, suck it up and soldier on.

Uniforms (dress of the day) should only be worn on duty, or to and from duty. This goes for Militia soldiers also going to and fro on a pde night or trg day. As for wedding funerals etc, thats fine too, but seek authorisation. Uniforms in pubs and where booze is served these days is more likely to cause friction with the general public, as we all know what booze will always do to some. You'll end up in shyte and thats a fact. End of story.

Personally, I wear PT gear to work, and at the end of the day, change back into it. I know who I am and what I do for a living, and I have no need to beat my chest and show off (seems some like the attention on here).

Time to suck it up and get over it. Be responsible and accountable. As for running in ruck mode, fine now, but later on when your back and knees begin to give out, just remember what caused it. How about following a proper PTI approved PT plan which keeps you fit, and does not DAMAGE your body, but will prepare your stamena for your long ruck marches. 

Ruck march trg for Reservists on their own time, on some road, maybe poorly lit, or worse busy. Well what about duty of care? Say you get hit by a car on a road, ruck and all, then your injured or worse invalided or dead. You have a family? Compensation? A big grey area isn't it? It happens. No guides in safety vests and plenty of DH's on today roads and worse in the colder months. What would your Trg WOs do? If yo are going to do such trg, do it defence property, and authorised incase of injury.

Not to piss on someone's parade here, and I am far from a pencil necked safety geek, but again common sense prevails.

Cheers,

Wes


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## chrisf (23 Mar 2006)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> As for running in ruck mode, fine now, but later on when your back and knees begin to give out, just remember what caused it. How about following a proper PTI approved PT plan which keeps you fit, and does not DAMAGE your body, but will prepare your stamena for your long ruck marches.
> 
> Ruck march trg for Reservists on their own time, on some road, maybe poorly lit, or worse busy. Well what about duty of care? Say you get hit by a car on a road, ruck and all, then your injured or worse invalided or dead. You have a family? Compensation? A big grey area isn't it? It happens. No guides in safety vests and plenty of DH's on today roads and worse in the colder months. What would your Trg WOs do? If yo are going to do such trg, do it defence property, and authorised incase of injury.



Sorry, but that doesn't work...

As a reservist, the military doesn't pay me to keep in shape, or more accurately, they don't provide me specificly with the time to do so, as such, I've got to do it on my own time.

I run on my own time,  because I need to do it to stay in shape. There's risks inherent there, but it's got to be done. For the same reason, if I were training for, say, the Njimeghan march, I'd have to ruck on my own time, because generally, as a reservist, the military doesn't provide me with funding to do it on their time.


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## combat_medic (23 Mar 2006)

Ok folks, this one is getting locked. 

If you want to wear a uniform off duty, you need permission. Get permission, or don't wear the uniform, simple.


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