# Room for discussion



## Huggy (20 Dec 2004)

This is a bit of a rant, ok.... It's a lot of a rant. But never the less I'll post it and see if someone can shine a light on this.

If your top 3 trades are all in the same area (see little rant below) and your aptitude test back saying your not 'on paper' suited from any of these trades but you have a wide background in them is there any room for discussion??? 

The aptitude test, doesn't really prove anything, or at lest I personally find it to be insulting.  I have been working on and with hydro with my dad (master electrician) from a young age, doing it all, I can wire a house with no problems, right to code. I have a huge background in electronic and computers. I know what my skill level is and I know myself, and I also know that I'm a complete dum*as* when it comes to math. So when I go in to write this 'aptitude' test, I would not be surprised if it came back without Line Technician (052), or Electrical Generation Systems Technician (643) and Electrical Distribution Technician (ED TECH) on my sheet. Which again I find insulting cause they are losing a good man for the job, just because I can't deal with numbers in my head as well as the next guy. 
And I know someones is going to come back with You never know unless you go and write the test, so lets just get that out of the way now, and move past that.


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## Fruss (20 Dec 2004)

Hey Huggy, as you said, you didn't pass the test yet..  relax!!!!!  I'm not good at math either and I was ok for LCIS tech, that is electronics...

It's not a "test" per say!!!  you can't "fail" the test..  it's not school!!!  You worry too much about it!!

Take it easy and you'll do fine!!

Cheers

Frank


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## Inch (20 Dec 2004)

Huggy, 

You're not getting screwed over man, did you ever think that math skills are important for those trades? The military may have different criteria than what your father will accept. I spent a few weeks at the recruiting centre in Sault Ste Marie while I was waiting to go on course, those tests don't lie. It's set out for each MOC what mark and which sections of the test are important. If you don't meet a certain criteria, and each MOC has a certain criteria, you won't be offered that trade, period. If those are the trades you want, then try doing some part time schooling in math or whatever you need to help you qualify for those trades, then try again.


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## Huggy (21 Dec 2004)

I don't mean to dig up a dead pet, but It kinda ticks me off, on why society hold 'tests' on such high regard?

its not a test, you can't fail but at the same time what the problem with someone walking in with a background and history in an area in which they would like to server their country with yet not getting accepted because of a 'non-test / test' says something I could have told them before walking in. 
So There Is No Room For Discussion At All!!!! What this test comes back with is what it is. That is that???

I don't know man, its just you of these things that get under my skin. Sorry.
I'll come to terms with it in time (say after I write it)


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## Kevin_B (21 Dec 2004)

If you are worried about doing math in your head, then you don't have to worry. They give you a piece of paper to do your calculations on. I'm sure those trades a require alot of calculations to be done so they test you to see if you are able to do it. Ask your father, I bet he had to do quite a bit of math when he was learning to do his job.


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## Tracker (21 Dec 2004)

Prepare for the test and you should do fine.


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## Garbageman (21 Dec 2004)

Huggy said:
			
		

> I don't know man, its just you of these things that get under my skin. Sorry.
> I'll come to terms with it in time (say after I write it)



Better get used to it if you plan on joining the CF.  Tests are common, and not up for discussion.  Throughout your career you will encounter many things that you may not necessarily agree with, but you're going to have to learn to see past that and complete them to the best of your ability anyway.  The military is not a democracy.


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## Inch (27 Dec 2004)

Huggy said:
			
		

> I don't mean to dig up a dead pet, but It kinda ticks me off, on why society hold 'tests' on such high regard?
> 
> its not a test, you can't fail but at the same time what the problem with someone walking in with a background and history in an area in which they would like to server their country with yet not getting accepted because of a 'non-test / test' says something I could have told them before walking in.
> So There Is No Room For Discussion At All!!!! What this test comes back with is what it is. That is that???
> ...



Tests are a fact of life, they're a way to measure your performance.  You take a course then you write a test to make sure that you've learned the material before credit is given for the course. That's just the way the world works. Believe me, I've got no sympathy for people who complain about tests. I write or do flight tests at least 10 times a year regardless of whether or not I'm on course, it's just a requirement for my trade.

So no, there is *no* room for discussion. If you want to do the job, qualifying for it via the CFAT is the only way, period.


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## Ghost (31 Dec 2004)

I had to get my GED just to take the apptitude test.

You have to take the tests and you have to pass them like everybody else.


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## jarko (31 Dec 2004)

I dispise math and have it has always been my worst subject in school,  but when i did the test i qualified for all the job choices.


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## Ghost (1 Jan 2005)

Yeah that was so awsome to see that I qualified for everything.

But my mind was made up before I entered the building and its 031 all the way.


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## mdh (4 Jan 2005)

Huggy,

There is sound advice here on the CFAT, but one thing you should be aware of - there is a minimal score you must achieve on the test to   be offered even the most non-technical CF position. In other words there is a de facto failure rate, and it's something you should keep in mind. Do not - under any circumstances - take the view that you can't study for it; you can and if you have trouble with tests you should.

Inch has the best words to offer - math skills will be important to you in the future, even if you take a less technical trade in the forces you may decide one day that you want to do something else, and suddenly realize you don't have the math skills to qualify.   Take a course now to upgrade if you must, and practice writing aptitude tests - there is a whole section on this board about the CFAT - read it over. Better yet try getting a tutor to help you if you don't have a lot of time and focus on things like algebra, fractions, decimals, word problems, it's not as hard as it appears. Cheers, mdh


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## cgyflames01 (5 Jan 2005)

Huggy: You should cross that bridge when you come to it, just write the CFAT first, and if you aren't qualified for your disired trade. Worry about it then. I wrote my test with 5 other people in Calgary, and everyone there got the MOC  of their choice. My best advice is to go to the library and get a book on math 10. 
Oh and good luck


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## Huggy (10 Jan 2005)

I see....  
First off, I don't subscribe to the whole, cross that bridge when you come to it, attitude, well not when it comes to a lot of life affecting decisions (do your research, cover or bases, ask any and all questions, and get all the information you can that is available to you, then jump in with both feet giving it your all, this is the program I subscribe too).  

All of you have given me a lot of sound advice, to which I am grateful for and over the course of about 55 posts have a great deal of respect for each and every one of you. With that being said. I would like to address some points.

Inch


> You're not getting screwed over man, did you ever think that math skills are important for those trades? The military may have different criteria than what your father will accept. I spent a few weeks at the recruiting centre in Sault Ste Marie while I was waiting to go on course, those tests don't lie. It's set out for each MOC what mark and which sections of the test are important. If you don't meet a certain criteria, and each MOC has a certain criteria, you won't be offered that trade, period. If those are the trades you want, then try doing some part time schooling in math or whatever you need to help you qualify for those trades, then try again.



Sound wisdom, thanks
Test do lie, I have no doubt. (especial with it comes to written test about manual work)  

Kevin_B


> If you are worried about doing math in your head, then you don't have to worry. They give you a piece of paper to do your calculations on. I'm sure those trades a require alot of calculations to be done so they test you to see if you are able to do it. Ask your father, I bet he had to do quite a bit of math when he was learning to do his job.



I'm sorry I had to laugh when I read this. My dad did have to learn a lot of math and I show him the technical math that is forced down my throat now, he looks at it and says â Å“I have never seen that before, nor have I never used it.â ? And my dad has been doing this at a large company for 40 years.  
Thanks for the heads up on the paper issue. I sure it will help, but a calculator would help more, not possible I know.

Garbagman


> Better get used to it if you plan on joining the CF.  Tests are common, and not up for discussion.  Throughout your career you will encounter many things that you may not necessarily agree with, but you're going to have to learn to see past that and complete them to the best of your ability anyway.  The military is not a democracy.



I have no problems with doing tests. I'm more then happy to write a test of things that someone has taking the time to teach me. I can sit in a class and learn anything and as long as it's a fair test I have no issues writing it.  Aptitude tests are not that, they are more like doing a test that has nothing to do with anything and some how someone can make a decision with out even meeting you whether or not you can do a job all based on a test that never even asked you to (for example) draw a resistor. I know the military is not a democracy that is a vary good point. But if you don't make your issues known then things never change, nor things never get questioned. Sometimes change is need and questions raise issues.

Inch


> Tests are a fact of life, they're a way to measure your performance.  You take a course then you write a test to make sure that you've learned the material before credit is given for the course. That's just the way the world works. Believe me, I've got no sympathy for people who complain about tests. I write or do flight tests at least 10 times a year regardless of whether or not I'm on course, it's just a requirement for my trade.
> 
> So no, there is no room for discussion. If you want to do the job, qualifying for it via the CFAT is the only way, period.



They are a way to measure what you are able to retain, education is what remains after you have forgotten what you learned in school. When it comes to some ones ability to do a job that requires tools marks don't mean a lot.  Example (and I'm sure we have all seen this, I have alots of time) Two students, Students 'A' has good marks consisting of nothing lower then 85% and spends a lot of his time doing everything but school work . Student 'Z' has marks in the opposite end of the scale and works hard at school. Student 'A' beats Student 'Z' out of a job. Is this correct?  No because if you hand Student 'A' a screwdriver he'll end up using it in the wrong fashion and it will end up going through his hand or someone else. Where as Student 'Z' has experience working with tools and worked hard for every mark he has gotten in school. But there are no written tests on things like that.
â Å“I write or do flight tests at least 10 times a year regardless of whether or not I'm on courseâ ? 
Do they give you a picture of the cockpit and a little arrow pointing to a light followed be a test question of what sequence of buttons do you press if this light comes on. I hope not coz that's something you need to prove in an airplane (or simulator) not on paper.

MDH


> There is sound advice here on the CFAT, but one thing you should be aware of - there is a minimal score you must achieve on the test to  be offered even the most non-technical CF position. In other words there is a de facto failure rate, and it's something you should keep in mind. Do not - under any circumstances - take the view that you can't study for it; you can and if you have trouble with tests you should.



I will study for it, for sure. De facto failure rate is this common knowledge or generally people really aren't told this because it hardly ever comes up?


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## Inch (10 Jan 2005)

Huggy said:
			
		

> Inch
> 
> â Å“I write or do flight tests at least 10 times a year regardless of whether or not I'm on courseâ ?
> Do they give you a picture of the cockpit and a little arrow pointing to a light followed be a test question of what sequence of buttons do you press if this light comes on. I hope not coz that's something you need to prove in an airplane (or simulator) not on paper.



Actually, it's not quite that simple. They say, you've got a tail rotor chip light, what would cause that to come on (book knowledge of the system) and how do you react to it? You can write it down just as easy as you can say it. If you can't remember enough to write down, how are you ever going to remember how to react when the real deal happens?

It's the same as anything, if you know it enough to do it, you should be able to write it down. If you fail a written test, you better believe they're not going to let you try it in the aircraft.

Oh, and having good marks isn't indicative of sticking a screw driver through your hand, I've always had good marks and I know my way around a tool bench too.


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## Huggy (10 Jan 2005)

Inch


> Actually, it's not quite that simple. They say, you've got a tail rotor chip light, what would cause that to come on (book knowledge of the system) and how do you react to it? You can write it down just as easy as you can say it. If you can't remember enough to write down, how are you ever going to remember how to react when the real deal happens?
> 
> It's the same as anything, if you know it enough to do it, you should be able to write it down. If you fail a written test, you better believe they're not going to let you try it in the aircraft.
> 
> Oh, and having good marks isn't indicative of sticking a screw driver through your hand, I've always had good marks and I know my way around a tool bench too.



True. I see your point, but what I was trying to say with the whole screwdriver thing is that its not always the best marks = the best person for the job but thats that way people always seem to lean. the 'little guy' who trys hard and had to fight for everything, is the guy who gets screwed over and its all about marks on paper that people look at and pass jugement on. Looking someone in the eye and asking job related questions or being asked to perfourm a job related task dosn't happen, if you can do on paper you can't do the job. 



> You can write it down just as easy as you can say it. If you can't remember enough to write down, how are you ever going to remember how to react when the real deal happens?



The thing is trying to place something on paper or even in words is not the same as reacting to something. But one of my teachers said the same thing as you (I'm not saying I'm right and you \ my teacher are wroung) "if you can't lable this diagram with the right words how are you ever going to be able to order parts for it over the phone?" Well the catch 22 to that is in the real world you have books and other people to work with when it comes to said situation. In aircrafts I see the point but, the thing is one can say that these are the steeps you take when this happens (putting them on paper) now that same person sitting in a cockpit may not even know where to find the buttons or switchs that he 'knows' on paper. There is all kinds of situations that can go in both sides of the conversation but remember. Its not always the best marks = the best person for the job


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## Inch (10 Jan 2005)

I understand what you're saying, but it's still no reason for you not to be able to write a test, especially on stuff that you work with everyday. Part of learning in the books is learning where to find stuff on the actual machine. The first time I sat in the Sea King, I had a pretty good idea of where everything was. Just by reading in the book, I'll tell you that the battery switch is the third switch from the right on the forward most row of switches on the upper console. You know what? I got in the aircraft, looked at the forward most row of switches, and I'll be jiggered, there the battery switch was, third from the right.

If I get up top and look at the back of the transmission, I can tell you where the #1 and #2 generators are, the #1 and #2 transmission lube pumps, all three hydraulic pumps, etc. I learned all of that from reading and class room study, weeks before ever seeing the real aircraft.



> Its not always the best marks = the best person for the job



I get good marks, in fact I got 97% on my aircraft operating instructions test today. Are you going to tell me that I'm not the best person for the job? If you think I was the only one with a mark like that, all 6 of us were 95% or better.

I'll tell you one more thing before I digress, if I ever had another pilot sitting beside me that couldn't get a 90% on that test, I'll say right out that they're not the best person for the job. A monkey can fly, a pilot knows his aircraft and can analyse problems using the knowledge he gained while reading and learning about the aircraft systems as well as flying the aircraft. I can't see how it'd be that much different in any other trade.


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## Huggy (11 Jan 2005)

True...  
but what about the other end of the scale the person who despite their best effort gets 65% on written tests yet can do the job with no problem, they are never give the opportunity to show their abilities. 

I'm not saying that I can't pass the aptitude test but or any test given to me but in general terms its a written test the dictates life.


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## Inch (11 Jan 2005)

Huggy said:
			
		

> True...
> but what about the other end of the scale the person who despite their best effort gets 65% on written tests yet can do the job with no problem, they are never give the opportunity to show their abilities.
> 
> I'm not saying that I can't pass the aptitude test but or any test given to me but in general terms its a written test the dictates life.



That's where I differ in opinion, I say that if you can only get 65% on a test, it means that you only know 65% of the material and you will not be able to do the job with no problem. 

Yes written tests do dictate life, it's the same everywhere so get used to it.


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## aesop081 (11 Jan 2005)

Huggy said:
			
		

> True...
> but what about the other end of the scale the person who despite their best effort gets 65% on written tests yet can do the job with no problem, they are never give the opportunity to show their abilities.
> 
> I'm not saying that I can't pass the aptitude test but or any test given to me but in general terms its a written test the dictates life.



In MY experience, accumulated in 2 MOCs, test are a good indicator. If you can only get 65, you are lacking the critical knowledge to do you job. Inch is bang on in his comments.


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## Jungle (11 Jan 2005)

Take the test, then if there are problems you can rant about it. The CF will not change their recruiting policies just to please you... If you "fail" the test, act mature and make a decision; choose another trade or do not join !!
The attitude you are demonstrating towards a simple test, that you have not yet taken, is a sign that you may not belong in the Military.


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## Huggy (11 Jan 2005)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Take the test, then if there are problems you can rant about it. The CF will not change their recruiting policies just to please you... If you "fail" the test, act mature and make a decision; choose another trade or do not join !!
> The attitude you are demonstrating towards a simple test, that you have not yet taken, is a sign that you may not belong in the Military.



come down here Jungle, yes in the start of this thread I was ranting a fair bit. but I'm not asking anyone for a special test nor to change the enlisting procedure its just a converstation on out looks of tests. My attitude on this subject is somewhat twisted since I have been in college for 5 years (work on 2 deplioma) I have seen it all and I am in that range for marks (65% - 80%) and yes test of any kind get me alittle worried even if I am well studied. trust me its not the test holding me back from enlisting.


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## Franko (11 Jan 2005)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Take the test, then if there are problems you can rant about it. The CF will not change their recruiting policies just to please you... If you "fail" the test, act mature and make a decision; choose another trade or do not join !!
> The attitude you are demonstrating towards a simple test, that you have not yet taken, is a sign that you may not belong in the Military.



Jungle...well said.

I just hope he doesn't come with a blue card attached to his sleeves when he gets sworn in.  ;D

Regards


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## Ghost (11 Jan 2005)

When you get sworn in where do they do that?


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## Franko (11 Jan 2005)

When I got sworn in it was in my CO's office and observed by a retired B Gen.....

This was in the militia and back in the 80s it was a bit different....

Regards


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jan 2005)

....back in the 80's?.........phhfff,...new guy! :-[
                                                                         ..lost the "edge" huh?....I was doing the edge before you knew what blades were. ;D


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