# University graduate pursuing Infantry?



## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

Hello all,

This is my first post on the board.  Thank you for having me.  I have been reading relevant topics on the board and have learned much, however I have some additional questions specific to my situation:

I am a Canadian Citizen living in the US as a permanent resident with an undergraduate degree from a US university.  Age 24.  I am interested in returning to Canada and serving MY country as an infantry soldier.  I was hoping I could get some intel and perspectives on the status of infantry recruiting and the application process.  I suppose the easiest thing to do is to present and number my questions separately in hopes of getting answers to some (or all) of them from those more connected and familiar with the process:

1.  Are infantry applications currently being accepted? If not, what is the best guess as to when they will open up again?  I have seen mixed answers and opinions on the board.  I would like to submit my application at a time when it will not be turned away, and is most likely to go through.  Is it advisable to apply asap and hope the application is merit listed, or is there an optimal time at which to initiate the process?

If I am able to enter the application process, what challenges will I encounter not living in Canada near a recruiting center?  

2.  I gather that infantry is especially competitive, however I feel that I could be a strong candidate:  I hold a degree in Business Administration, was a competitive varsity HS swimmer for 5 years, am an Eagle Scout, live an active lifestyle, work out, hold a management job position, and have extensive experience shooting firearms as a hobby (including the AR15 [C7, M4] platform).  Here in the US, students take the ASVAB military aptitude test during our 12th grade year; as I recall I made a perfect score or very close to it.  Do I sound like an applicant who may get any kind of merit preference?

3.  What is the initial contract length (VIE?) for an infantry soldier?  I believe I saw a post that said it is 3 years, but I was hoping someone could verify.  (Here in the US I believe it is 4 years, and 5 for officer.)  And what is the length of a 2nd term if you would like to renew your contract?  

4.  Would my university degree afford me any possibility of automatic rank advancement if accepted?  Here in the US, I believe college graduates that enlist are automatically promoted to the rank of Sergeant as they begin their contract.   

5.  What are the current PT requirements for acceptance into infantry?  Again, I have seen mixed answers on the board.  I am in decent shape, but not the best shape of my life.  I have already started doing a more intense workout regimen (just finished Month 1 of "Insanity")  on the chance that I am able to pursue the infantry application process in the near future.  I also understand that I am older than many applicants may be.

6.  Considering what little you know about me, do I have a chance?  If so, what do I do next?  I have already called the CF main recruiting branch in an effort to learn more about how to get the ball rolling, however the recruiter I spoke to was not very helpful.  He basically just waited for me to ask questions, and answered them.  At the time I didn't even know what questions to ask in order to get the full run-down of what someone in my position can/should do.  This was a bit of a surprise, as I am used to US military recruiters courting and lavishing anybody that shows even the slightest interest in serving.  

I am so glad to have found this forum, and I really appreciate any knowledge/advice that anyone in the know is willing to share.  I have many more questions, but I believe this will give me a good starting knowledge base.  Again, I welcome any and all input!


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## MikeL (3 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> and have extensive experience shooting firearms as a hobby (including the AR15 [C7, M4] platform).


Shooting as a hobby doesn't make you any better a candidate then anyone else... you could have gotten bad habits as well.



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> I am a Canadian Citizen living in the US as a permanent resident with an undergraduate degree from a US university.  Age 24.  I am interested in returning to Canada and serving MY country as an infantry soldier.
> 
> 1.  Are infantry applications currently being accepted? If not, what is the best guess as to when they will open up again?  I have seen mixed answers and opinions on the board.  I would like to submit my application at a time when it will not be turned away, and is most likely to go through.  Is it advisable to apply asap and hope the application is merit listed, or is there an optimal time at which to initiate the process?
> 
> If I am able to enter the application process, what challenges will I encounter not living in Canada near a recruiting center?



There are limited positions for the Infantry,  with lots of people waiting in line for a position.  In the new fiscal year there will be more openings(I do not know how many).  As for finding out how living in the US will affect for applying to the CF,  call the CF Recruiting phone number back(or the CFRC you want to deal with) and ask.  I can guess what issues may arise,  but only thing I can say for sure is it doesn't make things easier.  Are you planning on moving back to Canada?  Or will you only back if you get accepted in the CF?  Are you willing to come to Canada to do all your testing, etc.  If the CF wants you to live in Canada in order for you too apply will you be willing to move?



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> 4.  Would my university degree afford me any possibility of automatic rank advancement if accepted?  Here in the US, I believe college graduates that enlist are automatically promoted to the rank of Sergeant as they begin their contract.



I doubt having university would  make you automatically a Sgt in the US Army.. I would think at best they would get Spc/Cpl.  No,  having university will not make you get an automatic promotion to Cpl,  let alone Sgt.  Do you feel that having post secondary education should automatically advance you in rank?  Did it prepare you for a leadership position within a Infantry section?



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> 3.  What is the initial contract length (VIE?) for an infantry soldier?  I believe I saw a post that said it is 3 years, but I was hoping someone could verify.  (Here in the US I believe it is 4 years, and 5 for officer.)  And what is the length of a 2nd term if you would like to renew your contract?



Initial contract is for 3 years,  CE would be 3 years.



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> 5.  What are the current PT requirements for acceptance into infantry?  Again, I have seen mixed answers on the board.  I am in decent shape, but not the best shape of my life.  I have already started doing a more intense workout regimen (just finished Month 1 of "Insanity")  on the chance that I am able to pursue the infantry application process in the near future.  I also understand that I am older than many applicants may be.



The CF PT tests are the same standard for everyone, regardless of trade.  That being said,  the day to day PT,  training, etc will not be easy.  Being in as best shape as you can will be to your benefit.

Don't worry about your age... you may be older then some,  but you will probably be younger then others.  



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> Here in the US, students take the ASVAB military aptitude test during our 12th grade year; as I recall I made a perfect score or very close to it.
> (Here in the US I believe it is 4 years, and 5 for officer.)  And what is the length of a 2nd term if you would like to renew your contract?
> 4.  Would my university degree afford me any possibility of automatic rank advancement if accepted?  Here in the US, I believe college graduates that enlist are automatically promoted to the rank of Sergeant as they begin their contract.
> , as I am used to US military recruiters courting and lavishing anybody that shows even the slightest interest in serving.



The Canadian Forces and US Military are different,  so yes things like recruiting,  rank, etc will not be the same.  Just because the US does something one way does not mean the CF does it the same.  No need for the constant  "well in the US they do it this way.."


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## mariomike (3 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> Are infantry applications currently being accepted?



Trades OPEN / Closed ?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/88342.0.html

Infantry Application (merged thread)  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101214.100

Infantry Selection Dates -HEADS UP.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106190.0

Infantry Recruiting  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108166.0

Infantry Question  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105874.0
"I was told by a family friend who currently serves that Infantry are not accepting applications right now..."



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> <snip> is there an optimal time at which to initiate the process?



"When to apply for Infantry":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101214/post-1179358.html#msg1179358



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> I am a Canadian Citizen living in the US as a permanent resident with an undergraduate degree from a US university.



"Direct Entry applicants must hold a Bachelor’s degree from an accredited Canadian university."



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> So is there a mandatory minimum term for an Infantry Officer before he is able to leave service on good terms?



"...am considering applying to be a DEO Infantry officer. <snip> What I'm wondering is how VRs before one's IE is finished is looked upon by battalions.  Does it have a strong negative impact upon your name and reputation in the military?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13316/post-513135.html#msg513135

DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service
http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp
"The purpose of obligatory service is to restrict the right to voluntary release of CF members who have received subsidized education or training, the Pilot Terminable Allowance or the Medical or Dental Officer Direct Entry Recruitment Allowance..."

VARIABLE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT LENGTHS BY OCCUPATION 
NCM 00010 - 031 - INFMN - VIE 3 
Officer 00180 - 23 - INF - DEO/ROTP - VIE 9/VIE 13

DEO SELECTION PROCESS (TIMING)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101168.0.html

Just looling ( sic ) for some updates on DEO Selections  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106206.0
"I been merit listed for DEO Infantry and would appreciate any current info."



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> Also, are Infantry Officers afforded [equal, more, or less] opportunity to pursue specialized courses (airborne, recce, pathfinder, sniper etc.) as NCM infantry?



Infantry officer specializations?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107974.0
"I was looking at the infantry position on the website and noticed on their fact sheet they list a multitude of specializations an infantryman can attain. What about officers?" 



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> Same question goes for CANSOFCOM applicants.



Officer or NCM for CANSOFCOM?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51971.0
"Do officer's really have much of a chance to serve with the special operations units?  It seems that even if they do make it in that they don't get to do too much of the hands on stuff and are stuck with the command role while the NCM's get to carry out the tasks that are more fun." 



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> If I am able to enter the application process, what challenges will I encounter not living in Canada near a recruiting center?



"CFRC's have people who specifically deal with "OutCans" (Outside Canada), Canadian applicants working/studying abroad.  If your application is one worth considering, you will be contacted, and they will discuss all the pertinent arrangements that need to be made for you.":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104202/post-1107576.html#msg1107576


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## seawolf (3 Dec 2012)

If you have a degree... Why not go for DEO infantry officer? Then your degree does get you rank... 2Lt


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## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

I was actually considering the DEO path first, but the recruiter told me the process is quite a bit more complicated for someone with a foreign degree and background.   He also informed me that the minimum term for an Infantry Officer is 9 years.  While I am eager and willing to serve I feel that this is quite a long commitment, especially starting as late as I am.  It is still on the table, though.

Either path would be a huge change (obviously) for me and my life direction.  At this time I feel that three years in an enlisted (eventually NCO?) position would be the best path for me to serve and find out whether a longer Army career is for me.  Perhaps some members can share their perspective...


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## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

> There are limited positions for the Infantry,  with lots of people waiting in line for a position.  In the new fiscal year there will be more openings(I do not know how many).  As for finding out how living in the US will affect for applying to the CF,  call the CF Recruiting phone number back(or the CFRC you want to deal with) and ask.  I can guess what issues may arise,  but only thing I can say for sure is it doesn't make things easier.  Are you planning on moving back to Canada?  Or will you only back if you get accepted in the CF?  Are you willing to come to Canada to do all your testing, etc.  If the CF wants you to live in Canada in order for you too apply will you be willing to move?



If my goal is to be a candidate for the new openings, would it be more beneficial to submit an application now so that it is already in the system, or wait until after openings have become available?

Moving back to Canada as a civvy is on the table, however I would want to secure a job/career first.  Your last question is a tough one, as I am quite set on Infantry (or at the very least a combat arms job), so I would want to be as sure as possible of my chances before making such a significant leap. I do always have to consider the possibility of losing my US permanent resident status by moving away.



> I doubt having university would  make you automatically a Sgt in the US Army.. I would think at best they would get Spc/Cpl.  No,  having university will not make you get an automatic promotion to Cpl,  let alone Sgt.  Do you feel that having post secondary education should automatically advance you in rank?  Did it prepare you for a leadership position within a Infantry section?



I do actually have a close friend who was able to enter as SGT because he holds a B.B.A. degree like me.  Not sure if this is standard or a special case.  He is in Afghanistan right now so I cannot readily inquire.  Regardless, I have no problem with entering at the bottom...I just thought I'd ask.



> The Canadian Forces and US Military are different,  so yes things like recruiting,  rank, etc will not be the same.  Just because the US does something one way does not mean the CF does it the same.  No need for the constant  "well in the US they do it this way.."



Understood.  I have several friends in the US Army so it is just my main point of reference for anything military related at this time.  I unfortunately do not have any personal acquaintances in the CF.  So I appreciate all the input from you guys.


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## seawolf (3 Dec 2012)

You do know that the VIE is not mandatory right?

Think of it as the time the Govt of Canada will guarantee you a job if you are working adequatly. You can still get out - unless we are at war, etc.

The army doesn't want people that hate it. You can still be released.


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## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

Is the above true for officer as well?  The recruiter told me that 9 years was the minimum term because of how expensive it is to train combat arms officers, so I assumed it was mandatory once you sign the dotted line.


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## MikeL (3 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> If my goal is to be a candidate for the new openings, would it be more beneficial to submit an application now so that it is already in the system, or wait until after openings have become available?



I would talk with the Recruiters and confirm your eligibility to join the CF at this time,  ie do they want you to live in Canada or are they ok with your applying from the US?

If you are able to apply now,  if I were you I'd submit my application ASAP.



			
				goodreed said:
			
		

> I do actually have a close friend who was able to enter as SGT because he holds a B.B.A. degree like me.  Not sure if this is standard or a special case.  He is in Afghanistan right now so I cannot readily inquire.  Regardless, I have no problem with entering at the bottom...I just thought I'd ask.



Is the BBA related to his current MOS?

Going off these two links,  it looks like Spc is the highest advancement you can get with post secondary education if joining as a enlisted soldier.

http://www.goarmy.com/about/ranks-and-insignia.html
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/armyjoin/a/advancedrank.htm


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## Loachman (3 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> Is the above true for officer as well?  The recruiter told me that 9 years was the minimum term because of how expensive it is to train combat arms officers



We won't even force Pilots to stay in for that long, and we're even more expensive to train a bigger investment on behalf of our taxpaying citizenry.


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## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

> I would talk with the Recruiters and confirm your eligibility to join the CF at this time,  ie do they want you to live in Canada or are they ok with your applying from the US?
> 
> If you are able to apply now,  if I were you I'd submit my application ASAP.



Thank you for the advice.  I'll get on it.



> Is the BBA related to his current MOS?
> 
> Going off these two links,  it looks like Spc is the highest advancement you can get with post secondary education if joining as a enlisted soldier.
> 
> ...



Upon enlisting and completing Basic, he turned right around and went to OCS (officer school) to become an Artillery Officer.  Maybe it was all a "package deal" career plan.  I'm really not sure.

EDIT:  Upon further inquiry, you're right.  His automatic promotion was to SPC, not SGT.  I asked a mutual friend who is a 1LT.  Thanks for bearing with me.  Regardless, I believe you are telling me there is no parallel opportunity in the CF.


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## goodreed (3 Dec 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> We won't even force Pilots to stay in for that long, and we're even more expensive to train a bigger investment on behalf of our taxpaying citizenry.



I see.  So is there a mandatory minimum term for an Infantry Officer before he is able to leave service on good terms?

Also, are Infantry Officers afforded [equal, more, or less] opportunity to pursue specialized courses (airborne, recce, pathfinder, sniper etc.) as NCM infantry?  Or is it preferred that they stay in their admin position and let their NCMs do those things?  Same question goes for CANSOFCOM applicants.


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## MikeL (3 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> Also, are Infantry Officers afforded [equal, more, or less] opportunity to pursue specialized courses (airborne, recce, pathfinder, sniper etc.) as NCM infantry?  Or is it preferred that they stay in their admin position and let their NCMs do those things?  Same question goes for CANSOFCOM applicants.



I am not a Infantry Officer,  nor am I any kind of expert on their career progression.  The answers I give below are just on my observations,  what I've learned in conversations(with Inf Os), etc

Infantry Officers do more then just hold a "admin position",  if you are a Platoon Commander you will of course be doing some admin duties related to the job, etc but you will also be out leading the platoon on exercise and deployment.

Officers can not be snipers,  that career path is NCM only.  Officers can attend B Para, Patrol Pathfinder, etc  the odds of getting them vary depending on the battalion(light or mech), how you will be employed, etc.  From what I have seen the oppourtunitie to attend these courses are higher for NCMs.  You may get the chance to attend these courses(maybe right away,  maybe in a few years),  but there is also the chance you may not.

There is a Recce Platoon Commander position in each battalion.  Depending on how the Battalion employs you,  they could have you be in that position;  but you may also not have that opportunity.   From what I have seen they will usually get the Advanced Recce course,  sometimes they do Basic Recce to prepare for the Advanced Recce course. 

 As a officer you can try out for a CANSOF unit,  either in a Operator/Assaulter role or Support.


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## goodreed (7 Dec 2012)

So does a qualified DEO applicant have more or less of a chance of being accepted than an equally qualified NCM applicant?


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## jwtg (7 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> So does a qualified DEO applicant have more or less of a chance of being accepted than an equally qualified NCM applicant?


Your question here is a little vague, so I'll assume you mean accepted _into the CF_ as opposed to accepted into CANSOF or onto the courses you mentioned.

My guess is that your answer depends on the recruiting climate;  at any given period, there are x number of spots for Inf Os and y number of spots for Inf NCMs.  They will take x and y number of people, starting with the people at the top of the merit list.  The real question is how many spots (x and y) are available, and how does your application score against the other applicants for those positions.  I imagine those figures aren't available to the public, except in the form of hearsay from internet forums and recruiting centers (I'm sure you'll find plenty of examples of those two things).

At best, you would need someone with some kind of inside info to give you a general impression of the recruiting climate for infantry, both DEO and NCM, right now to see where you stack up.

Good luck.


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## mariomike (7 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> So does a qualified DEO applicant have more or less of a chance of being accepted than an equally qualified NCM applicant?



Some applicant samples will give you an idea:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/13064.0


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## greentoblue (8 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> So does a qualified DEO applicant have more or less of a chance of being accepted than an equally qualified NCM applicant?



The numbers for recruiting vary year by year.  However, back during the summer I did see the numbers for the current year (as you know infantry is closed now):  only 4 infantry officer DEO positions were available.  That was better than the artillery which had only 1 spot.  Quite simply the infantry is at or over its preferred manning level (PML).  Now I don't know what next year's numbers will be but with the across-the-board government cutbacks and the continuing drawdown in Afghanistan I really can't see them being higher. (This is a _guess_; I don't know.)

Secondly, if you don't have a minimum of five years continious residency in Canada you will have to apply for a pre-security clearance which can take years to get done.  (Note 1: Ten years is the preferred minimum residency in Canada but is waivable dependent on situational factors by the PSO ie a kid immigrates with his family at age 10 and is now 18 and wants to enroll.  But I have yet to see a waiver staffed for anyone with less than five years residency.)(Note 2: the only valid exception to this rule is for dependents of Cdn military or diplomatic service personnel in which case there is no residency requirement.  However, even these guys have to get their educations certified to the equivalencies of whatever province the CFRC they are working with is located.)

As for your US degree, that too can be waiveable as long as it gets certified to provincial standards.  In the RCAF I happen to know several officers who got their degrees from: MIT, Boston U, Southern Missouri, Emry-Riddell and Western Washington.  (I went to Georgetown, "Go Hoyas".)

To sum up, you have a lot of obstacles in front of you if you really want to join the Cdn Forces.  You could be waiting years just to qualify because of the residency requirements and then still have to compete for a very small number of slots. You'll also have to think about the opportunity costs involved in moving back here, establishing yourself while waiting and forgoing other opportunities either in Canada or the US.  Good luck.


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## The_Falcon (8 Dec 2012)

I worked in recruiting up until last month

If you lived and went to school in a foreign country (yes even the US), there will be a few steps you have to complete.  

1) you WILL need to have your foreign degree assessed by an organization like WES (google it), the CFRC handling your file will tell you who to use, but its usually WES (it's sort of a niche market).  
2) You WILL need an FBI check (which can only be requested from within the States), before any security checks can be done.  The recruiting folks will tell you when they want it submitted.  And it has to be conducted within a certain time frame (1  year in most cases, so don't get it now, if you plan on apply 2 years from now).

These are the biggest hurdles you can control, if you are prompt in submitting these, it will "slightly" speed up the process.

From there, your RC will conduct a CRNC (criminal record) and Credit Check, and with your FBI check and some other paper work submit it to the security folks in Ottawa for a pre-assessment query, where they decide if they want to do a full blown pre-assessment.  (the decision takes about 2 weeks).  The file manager can't tell you if a full pre-assessment is required or not, that's a decision made in Ottawa, and they don't tell the RC's what their threshold criteria is, so don't ask.

As far as residency.  The 5 year/10 year requirements are guidelines,  and just make it easier to issue a clearance, as it's easier for the security folks to check your background via Canadian information sources, than foreign ones.


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## 421_434_226 (8 Dec 2012)

I too worked in recruiting until a few months ago (CFNRCC), what Hatchet Man just said is an excellent guideline, I basically had a similar outline in my cubicle as this information was usually repeated several times a day. You would be surprised how many foreign university degrees when assessed to Canadian standards were only the equivalent of a 2 year community college certificate (not normally for US universities).


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## goodreed (8 Dec 2012)

Thanks for the quick and thorough responses.  You guys have really been great.  

I'll keep posting if/when additional questions come up, and with any updates.


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## goodreed (12 Dec 2012)

Would there be any value in submitting two separate applications?  One for NCM and one for DEO, in case spots open up in one but not the other? 

 Is this even possible, or is a person only allowed one application?


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## The_Falcon (12 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> Would there be any value in submitting two separate applications?  One for NCM and one for DEO, in case spots open up in one but not the other?
> 
> Is this even possible, or is a person only allowed one application?



You can only have one active application, and you can't mix and match Officer/NCM.


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