# Liberal Minority Government 2021 - ????



## Altair (22 Nov 2021)

With the return of Parliament and no formal LPC-NDP agreement being made public, I suppose we shall see how long this government lasts.


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## YZT580 (22 Nov 2021)

at least two years, perhaps as much as 3.  It won't be a full term but the liberals will appear to govern as a majority.  consultation will be bill by bill with the ndp and either paragraphs will be written in to appease them or amendments will be made as a result of "debate" in the house.  The NDP have learnt from the past they will never be seen to be in bed with Trudeau


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## brihard (22 Nov 2021)

YZT580 said:


> at least two years, perhaps as much as 3.  It won't be a full term but the liberals will appear to govern as a majority.  consultation will be bill by bill with the ndp and either paragraphs will be written in to appease them or amendments will be made as a result of "debate" in the house.  The NDP have learnt from the past they will never be seen to be in bed with Trudeau


Bang on, I think. The LPC stumbled from one very stable minority into another one- and they did themselves the favour of emptying the other parties' war chests, AND setting the CPC up for some serious internal dissent. Nobody relevant is going to opt to push for an election for a few years.


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## suffolkowner (22 Nov 2021)

however long it lasts its already been too long


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## brihard (22 Nov 2021)

suffolkowner said:


> however long it lasts its already been too long


I guess the CPC are going to have to figure out how the hell to actually make themselves electable. While the last election was not a conventionally easy one, they had a ton to work with and still flubbed it.


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## Altair (22 Nov 2021)

YZT580 said:


> at least two years, perhaps as much as 3.  It won't be a full term but the liberals will appear to govern as a majority.  consultation will be bill by bill with the ndp and either paragraphs will be written in to appease them or amendments will be made as a result of "debate" in the house.  The NDP have learnt from the past they will never be seen to be in bed with Trudeau


Seem, no. Not in public.

I imagine a lot will be happening behind closed doors however.


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## Altair (26 Nov 2021)

To hear the whining coming from bell and telus, it seems like a Huawei ban is imminent.


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## Remius (26 Nov 2021)

Possible Huawei ban has telecoms asking Liberals about taxpayer compensation for new equipment
					

Both Bell and Telus have previously installed Huawei equipment to serve their existing older-generation networks, and it would have to be removed if the ban is…




					nationalpost.com


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## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2021)

Altair said:


> To hear the whining coming from bell and telus, it seems like a Huawei ban is imminent.


Lets hope so. Huawei is another tentacle of an insidious despicable Communist dictatorship


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## RangerRay (26 Nov 2021)

Altair said:


> To hear the whining coming from bell and telus, it seems like a Huawei ban is imminent.


I hope so. 

As for the tel coms…


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

> As for the tel coms…



Why?


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## Altair (27 Nov 2021)

RangerRay said:


> I hope so.
> 
> As for the tel coms…


They had better not get a penny.

Not one. With the big three charging some of the highest rates on the planet for phone service and data, and knowing full well that Huawei equipment was likely to be banned, they don't deserve a bailout.


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## Haggis (27 Nov 2021)

Maybe they will be asking for more than the government is able to give.

Maybe not.


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## Halifax Tar (27 Nov 2021)

Altair said:


> They had better not get a penny.
> 
> Not one. With the big three charging some of the highest rates on the planet for phone service and data, and knowing full well that Huawei equipment was likely to be banned, they don't deserve a bailout.


Agreed


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## The Bread Guy (27 Nov 2021)

Altair said:


> They had better not get a penny.
> 
> Not one. With the big three charging some of the highest rates on the planet for phone service and data, and knowing full well that Huawei equipment was likely to be banned, they don't deserve a bailout.


Lower cell rates not promised in the 2019 Liberal Book o' Promises, so no worries!


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

So many cranks love to hate "big telecom" as well as "big oil", and a few other "bigs" on which there is so much human dependency.

The big telcos reinvest billions each year into upgrading Canadian infrastructure to keep up with the Joneses (latest tech).  The service they provide is in exceptional demand whenever the sh!t hits the fan (ie. public welfare emergencies) and is just expected "to work".  You will have noticed that it didn't all collapse when usage surged at the start of the COVID pandemic.

For those curious, OpenSignal measures user experience around the world.  There are international reports, and Canada-specific reports.  There is also no shortage of press releases from the companies announcing how much they plan to invest in the next few years, and those amounts can be compared to the gross revenues (which are public information).  Some of the investment is coupled with public (government) investment to bring services to remote parts of Canada (there are a few).  You can decide whether Canada gets value for money.

Thought experiment: if telcos have to eat a loss, from where do you think it will come?  Compensation cuts?  Share dividend cuts?  Reinvestment of profits in the business?  You can't actually punish a corporation, but you can punish employees, mutual funds and pension plans, and Canada as a whole.


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## Altair (27 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> So many cranks love to hate "big telecom" as well as "big oil", and a few other "bigs" on which there is so much human dependency.
> 
> The big telcos reinvest billions each year into upgrading Canadian infrastructure to keep up with the Joneses (latest tech).  The service they provide is in exceptional demand whenever the sh!t hits the fan (ie. public welfare emergencies) and is just expected "to work".  You will have noticed that it didn't all collapse when usage surged at the start of the COVID pandemic.


This would be so much more impressive if you could point to what first world nation had their telecom sector collapse during covid. 


Brad Sallows said:


> For those curious, OpenSignal measures user experience around the world.  There are international reports, and Canada-specific reports.  There is also no shortage of press releases from the companies announcing how much they plan to invest in the next few years, and those amounts can be compared to the gross revenues (which are public information).  Some of the investment is coupled with public (government) investment to bring services to remote parts of Canada (there are a few).  You can decide whether Canada gets value for money.


Yet other countries have comparable or better cell coverage and telecom infrastructure. 

Even Australia, with similar geographic challenges as Canada, have telecom providers offering 1/3 the prices as Canada and their telecom sector is no slouch either. 



Brad Sallows said:


> Thought experiment: if telcos have to eat a loss, from where do you think it will come?  Compensation cuts?  Share dividend cuts?  Reinvestment of profits in the business?  You can't actually punish a corporation, but you can punish employees, mutual funds and pension plans, and Canada as a whole.


I though you were against corporate welfare, or is that just Bombardier?

Screw the big three, Canadians don't need to subsidize robber barons.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

Corporate welfare (eg. subsidies) is a gift.  Compensation for takings is not.

Basic plans are available for people with modest budgets.  The cost of entertainment is higher.  That hefty fraction of video being moved around isn't just conferences between doctors saving lives.

Based on what's happened in the past, I can guess that companies will try to maintain dividends, and employees will take it in the neck (particularly in companies with variable pay components based on measured targets).  Next time you see a tech up a pole in the middle of winter, you can curl your lip and sneer at the robber baron.


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## Altair (27 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Corporate welfare (eg. subsidies) is a gift.  Compensation for takings is not.


Potatoes potatoes 


Brad Sallows said:


> Basic plans are available for people with modest budgets.  The cost of entertainment is higher.  That hefty fraction of video being moved around isn't just conferences between doctors saving lives.


Get out of here with that nonsense. The budget plans in Canada are the cost what people getting with top of the line services in other countries. And any attempt to foster competition in this nation have the big three crying bloody murder. Because why allow competition when they can gouge Canadians with their oligarchic system? 


Brad Sallows said:


> Based on what's happened in the past, I can guess that companies will try to maintain dividends, and employees will take it in the neck (particularly in companies with variable pay components based on measured targets).  Next time you see a tech up a pole in the middle of winter, you can curl your lip and sneer at the robber baron.


Yes, you are right. My mistake. Of course Robber Barons never hire employees to do the manual labour. How foolish of me. 

A pox on all their houses. That tech on a pole can can work for any telcom that is allowed to compete with the big three or any of the entities that replaces them if they are broken up.


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## Edward Campbell (27 Nov 2021)

If you want to know why your telecom rates are so high in Canada you need look no farther than the law of the land. The telecommunications and broadcasting sector's became intertwined circa 1990 and the highly protectionist (essentially anti-American) aspects of the Broadcasting Act, which are driven by Canadian nationalists' fear of Canada being overwhelmed by American culture, was added to the Telecom sector, too, in the mid 1990s. 

The contrast with Australia is marked: there are, in each, three really big, national, carriers (Bell, Rogers and Telus, here, + Quebecor which gets extra-special "protection" out of your phone-bills ~ no matter who provides your service) but the Canadian carriers must all be Canadian owned. Australia also has a big three (Optus, Telstra and TPG). Telstra is the stepchild of the old government owned national telecom company ~ similar to BT Group in Britain, the successor to the old Post Office telecom carrier. The other two are majority-owned by Singtel (Singapore) inhale case of Optus and the Hutchison Group (Hong Kong and Caymans) controls TPG. Competition is alive and well in Australia; protectionism rules the roost in Canada. It is about 99.9% that simple. 

The carriers love the law. It allows them to be fat, dumb and happy. We, Canadians, get good service ONLY because we must be part of an integrated, North American network and, in the USA, better service is driven by ruthless competition. (The US market is also highly protected but it is large enough to thrive despite elected legislators in Washington DC who are in the pay of the big US Telcos.)


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

> That tech on a pole can can work for any telcom that is allowed to compete with the big three or any of the entities that replaces them if they are broken up.



Sure is a 180 from arguing for financial help for people whose work has been arbitrarily interrupted by government COVID mandates.  Group A affected by government fiat: help 'em out!  Group B: fuck 'em!


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## Edward Campbell (27 Nov 2021)

"That tech on a pole can can work for any telcom that is allowed to compete with the big three ..."

And there, of course, is the rub. "The fix is in" in Canada and competing with the big three (plus Quebecor) is, effectively, forbidden by the same terminally f_ _ _ ing stupid people who bring you Justin Trudeau _et al_ over and over and over again.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

> The budget plans in Canada are the cost what people getting with top of the line services in other countries.



For all the bitching about plan costs, no-one seems to be able to break it down and point to some place that "excess profits" are flowing.  I suppose it is because there are none: the employees get paid, the shareholders get dividends (yields typically in the 3%to 6% range, which is reasonable), and the infrastructure is expanded and improved.  Which part should be cut back?


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

> competing with the big three (plus Quebecor) is, effectively, forbidden



In what ways?  Canadian federal governments (CPC and LPC) have made a big deal of trying to subsidize/prefer "fourth" carriers (particularly with spectrum auctions) in the hopes of stimulating "competition".  The CRTC effectively sets rates at which ILECs are obligated to sell access to their means to competitors.  Like most utilities, telecomm is a natural monopoly.

Going by subscriber base, Canada has 3 dominant wireless companies.  The US has ... 3.  How many should we have?


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## Edward Campbell (27 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> In what ways?  Canadian federal governments (CPC and LPC) have made a big deal of trying to subsidize/prefer "fourth" carriers (particularly with spectrum auctions) in the hopes of stimulating "competition".  The CRTC effectively sets rates at which ILECs are obligated to sell access to their means to competitors.  Like most utilities, telecomm is a natural monopoly.
> 
> Going by subscriber base, Canada has 3 dominant wireless companies.  The US has ... 3.  How many should we have?


First, the CRTC has no business regulating where no shortages exist. There are NO, zero, zilch, nada, shortages in wire, cable or spectrum* . The CRTC is nothing but a tool which the telcos use to cement their anti-competitive instincts. The Gov't of Canada uses the CRTC to give one company which, probably, could not exist at all in a competitive market, a "leg up." 

Second, telecom is NOT a natural monopoly. It was, in Europe and Asia, because governments wanted to control the means of communications. The USA proved, for all to see, back in 1982, that there is no need for any sort of monopolistic entity. There IS a need for standards ~ that's quite a different thing. Until the advent of general purpose dialling and so on, which required strict adherence to technical standards, there were over 1,400 private, individual telecom in Ontario, alone. The need to adopt technical standards made "long distance" access financially impossible for most of the small ~ very often owned by the local physician, for what I think are obvious reasons ~ community telcos to upgrade so they sold out to Bell.

Three companies is enough for a competitive market ... see e.g. Australia (see my post above) and the USA which has four ~ AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile and Verizon ~ and Germany (Telekom (a subsidiary of Deutsche Telekom), Vodafone and  Telefónica Germany.

-----
* Spectrum is a seemingly finite natural resource but by increasingly more clever coding we are able to jam more and more bits into fewer and fewer Hertz. Anyway, the CRTC does NOT deal with any spectrum issues that is all Industry (Innovation?) Canada.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Nov 2021)

> natural monopoly



We might be using different definitions.  I'm thinking of the cost of duplicating all the hardware (lines and facilities).  It doesn't make sense - one set is enough in a given area, just like having only one set of water pipes, sewer pipes, hydro lines, etc.  The nation is divided among the ILECs (fewer actual companies now, since the demise of Stentor), but each company is close to being a market monopoly in its area and would be closer if not for rules governing contracted use.  No competitor seriously entertains the thought of building its own competing infrastructure on someone else's incumbency turf; it is self-evident that just the cost of continually upgrading hardware preoccupies everyone involved.  Consumers' interests are better served by this (they'd otherwise be paying for much more redundant hardware than otherwise, and there'd be less funding available for private/public expansion into the markets which, charitably, are not profitable).  If any of the companies could cut the legs out from under a competitor on its own turf using regulated prices to access the latter's hardware, it would already be doing so.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but back when the federal government was promising Canadians to lean on the telcos to cut 25% off some plans, some wag noted that fees the government charges and requires the telcos to collect on its behalf (and which ignorant consumers probably think is money going to the companies) come close to that amount.

I suspect that if foreign investors were given greater freedom, some with big pockets would swoop in, make handsome offers to current shareholders, and we'd still functionally have 3 large entities with different ownership.


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## Eaglelord17 (28 Nov 2021)

I guarantee you there is a lot of money they could cut off everyone's bills if they wanted. Why is it things like 'Long Distance' fees are in place still for some when it is a digital signal? Made sense when there were switch boards operated by people having to manually connect everyone, but when it is a digital signal that doesn't care if its in Europe, Asia, the Americas, or Africa, why are we still charging people for it?

Why is it Manitoba charges significantly less than every other province for the same service, and if I have a Manitoba phone I can use it across the country without issue? It is because everyone else is being raked over the coals, and the big telcos are laughing at our expenses.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> We might be using different definitions.  I'm thinking of the cost of duplicating all the hardware (lines and facilities).  It doesn't make sense - one set is enough in a given area, just like having only one set of water pipes, sewer pipes, hydro lines, etc.  The nation is divided among the ILECs (fewer actual companies now, since the demise of Stentor), but each company is close to being a market monopoly in its area and would be closer if not for rules governing contracted use.  No competitor seriously entertains the thought of building its own competing infrastructure on someone else's incumbency turf; it is self-evident that just the cost of continually upgrading hardware preoccupies everyone involved.  Consumers' interests are better served by this (they'd otherwise be paying for much more redundant hardware than otherwise, and there'd be less funding available for private/public expansion into the markets which, charitably, are not profitable).  If any of the companies could cut the legs out from under a competitor on its own turf using regulated prices to access the latter's hardware, it would already be doing so.
> 
> I can't remember the exact numbers, but back when the federal government was promising Canadians to lean on the telcos to cut 25% off some plans, some wag noted that fees the government charges and requires the telcos to collect on its behalf (and which ignorant consumers probably think is money going to the companies) come close to that amount.
> 
> I suspect that if foreign investors were given greater freedom, some with big pockets would swoop in, make handsome offers to current shareholders, and we'd still functionally have 3 large entities with different ownership.



No argument on the infrastructure. Almost all the physical wired infrastructure was put down by the old _Bell_ Alliance (_Stentor_ and other names) and is now owned by_ Bell_, _Telus_ and affiliated companies or by _Rogers_. The _Bell _affiliates and _Telus_ still own almost all the switching. Most of the wireless infrastructure was put up by the _Bell_ affiliates,_ Telus _(in the East when it was _ClearNet_), _Shaw_ and _Rogers_. Those were HUGE investments ~ some, like the _Trans-Canada Microwave System_ and the _TeleSat Canada_ network were, largely, publicly funded. It was much the same everywhere in the world. Even in the USA the _Bell_ system received enormous public subsidies and the microwave and satellite networks were put up with even larger doses of public funds.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Nov 2021)

> Why is it Manitoba charges significantly less than every other province for the same service



Maybe because they own their own wires and haven't really attempted to compete elsewhere, and so haven't taken on the additional costs.

As I say: if people are being raked over the coals , show where the extra revenue is going if not absorbed by legitimate costs.


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## dangerboy (28 Nov 2021)

When I got posted out of Shilo I kept my Manitoba cell phone number as it was a lot cheaper than an Ottawa phone number. Also since long-distance doesn't really mean anything these days it makes no sense to switch numbers every time you move.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> As I say: if people are being raked over the coals , show where the extra revenue is going if not absorbed by legitimate costs.


I don't suspect these people get to where they are by making it easy to call them on their creative book keeping. Look at how long the WE brothers rolled under the radar.

Anecdotal example, I was paying around $110 or more a month for Rogers with something like 10 gigs of data. Asking Rogers about extra data was like asking them to cut their hands off. I tried to get an extra 10 gigs due to using lots of data for work and after spending literal hours on the phone it cost me $80 for 10 gigs in addition to my monthly $110 bill, and I had to change my plan.

Meanwhile $20 USD a month in Iraq gets you unlimited calls, texting AND data. And the cell reception was legitimately better than you get in most places in the Ottawa valley. Sure the geography is different and that affects the signal but we're talking the NCR vs Iraq. It's crazy. Hell I even remember having better reception with a cell phone in Afghanistan 10 years ago than in Canada.


I do think you're bang on about who would end up footing the bill of the government doesn't pay up. Consumers and peon employees, 100%.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Nov 2021)

I doubt geography is a factor as much as climate and weather.

What does it cost to have a crew and heavy equipment dig a 50 foot frontage of property (trenchless under the driveway) to run a community-serving fibreoptic line?

What does it cost to have a crew and heavy equipment come in to cut back beetle-killed trees (fire and blowdown hazard) along a kilometre of utility poles serving a dozen recreational properties?

How long to recover the costs of infrastructure to support a small remote community (internet access being a right, after all)?

I have no doubt some customers are net losses subsidized by other customers.  I suppose one solution is to convince the government to allow rates to float freely enough so that every subscriber pays the true cost of whatever service is provided - more for remote and rural customers, customers in areas subject to frequent seasonal damage, etc.


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## Haggis (28 Nov 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> I suppose one solution is to convince the government to allow rates to float freely enough so that every subscriber pays the true cost of whatever service is provided - more for remote and rural customers, customers in areas subject to frequent seasonal damage, etc.


Why should the government care about the costs of services to rural customers?  So what if they pay more than urban subscribers. Rural Canada is not where the bulk of the votes are.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Nov 2021)

The government cares a great deal about providing utilities and services (health care, roads, clean water, electricity, telecomm) to remote and rural Canadians, particularly indigenous communities.  That's why governments partner with companies to provide those services.  But as economic ventures they are money losers, so someone else has to make up the difference.


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## Altair (1 Dec 2021)

House of Commons unanimously agrees to pass bill to ban conversion therapy
					

The House of Commons unanimously agreed to pass Bill C-4, the legislation to ban LGBTQ2S+ conversion therapy, through all stages without study or amendment after a Conservative motion, making it the first bill to pass the House in the 44th Parliament and head to the Senate. This rapid...



					www.ctvnews.ca
				




House of commons votes to unanimously pass the bill on banning conversion therapy. 

Well done CPC, well done Erin O'Toole


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## Altair (3 Dec 2021)

Taxpayers should not have to 'subsidize' rich telecoms that chose Huawei, Conservatives say
					

Huawei says the company has sold more than $700 million worth of equipment to telecom operators in Canada since 2018




					nationalpost.com
				






> The Conservatives are urging the Liberal government not to spend public money to compensate Canada’s large telecom companies for choosing to use Huawei equipment if it goes ahead with a Huawei 5G ban.“





> We ask that your government categorically reject requests for compensation from Canada’s large telecommunications companies,” Conservative Public Safety critic Raquel Dancho said in a letter sent Friday to Public Safety Minister Marco Mendocino and Innovation Minister François-Philippe Champagne.





> Dancho’s letter noted Canadians already “pay some of the highest monthly fees for cellphone service in the world” and said Canadian taxpayers “should not be forced to subsidize the private business decisions of some of Canada’s most profitable companies.”



The CPC, first by backing the ban on conversion therapy and now by calling for the big telecoms to not get one cent of government money, is trying really hard to win my vote.

I appreciate the effort.


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## Altair (7 Dec 2021)

The Omicron Variant - December 7, 2021
					

The Omicron variant: what are Canadians’ and Americans’ perspectives? Learn more in our latest North American Tracker and download the report.




					leger360.com
				




LPC 36
CPC 29
NDP 19 
BQ 7
PPC 5
GRN 3

I wonder how much staying power the PPC have.


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## The Bread Guy (11 Dec 2021)

Column from the bought-and-paid-for media ....


> ... In a party whose unity of purpose Trudeau did much to restore, it’s long been considered poor form, or wasted energy, for Liberals to contemplate the prospect of life without the leader who brought them back from the brink of irrelevance. This fall, that taboo lifted. It’s as though a screw that had secured some plate in the Liberals’ psyche for nearly a decade had been loosened by one full counterclockwise turn. Suddenly Liberals are granting themselves licence to speculate. And so the biggest question in Canadian politics in 2022 is whether Justin Trudeau will still be Prime Minister when the year is done ...


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## Altair (13 Dec 2021)

Ontario now only province without a child care deal after New Brunswick signs on
					

New Brunswick has signed a child care deal with Ottawa to create 5,700 new spaces at an average cost to parents of $10 per day by 2026.




					www.cp24.com
				






> New Brunswick has signed a child care deal with Ottawa to create 5,700 new spaces at an average cost to parents of $10 per day by 2026.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs made the announcement today.
> 
> ...



I have my money on the NWT and Nvt signing a deal before Doug Ford and Ontario does.

But congratulations to parents in NB


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## Altair (15 Dec 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/nwt-federal-child-care-deal-1.6284644
		




> The Northwest Territories and the federal governments are expected to announce a child care deal this week.



ha


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## QV (15 Dec 2021)

I'm reading on social media that yesterday in the Public Safety Committee Liberals voted *against *banning Huawei.  Can anyone confirm with a source?


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## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

QV said:


> I'm reading on social media that yesterday in the Public Safety Committee Liberals voted *against *banning Huawei.  Can anyone confirm with a source?


Saw the same thing but someone pointed out that it was a vote against a CPC motion and not a final vote on Huawei.  Either way I have not seen an actual source. 

Given that if they voted on huawei either for or against it would be in the news quite prominently.


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## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

Took a closer look.



			https://mobile.twitter.com/RaquelDancho
		


Ms. Dancho just playing politics.  

The CPC put forward a motion to actually have the committee actually make a decision on Huawei. That motion was shot down. 

So spinning that politically.  No decision has been made.


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## QV (15 Dec 2021)

Seems to me both sides are playing games (your example and the Liberals delaying). 

Either way, we better get off the fence and make a decision and it best be aligned with FVEY.


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## Brad Sallows (15 Dec 2021)

Until a decision is actually made, there's no case for denying compensation to companies forced to undo things they have done that they were not forbidden to do.


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## Altair (15 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Until a decision is actually made, there's no case for denying compensation to companies forced to undo things they have done that they were not forbidden to do.


It's pretty simple.

They should dip into the profits from changing the highest cell phone prices in the western world to pay for them stupidly installing Huawei equipment. 

If the two idiot companies who did this want to jack up rates if not compensated, Canadians can switch to the company that had the good sense to not get Huawei equipment. Free market and all.


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## Brad Sallows (15 Dec 2021)

Maybe first find the profits and prove they haven't been paid out in salaries, reinvested in G5 rollout and unprofitable projects to extend wireless and internet to Canadians in remote areas, used to retire bonds issued to cover prior tech rollouts, or paid out at bog-standard percentages to shareholders?  Prices and gross revenues aren't profits.

You (and many others) are already demanding confiscation on the basis of a decision the government hasn't even made.  Rule of law is about predictability.  You (and many others) are on the wrong side.  Bad place to be.


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## QV (15 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Until a decision is actually made, there's no case for denying compensation to companies forced to undo things they have done that they were not forbidden to do.


Agreed.

Canada should probably get on side with the US on this.


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## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

QV said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Canada should probably get on side with the US on this.


Agreed as well.  But I don’t mind that they are keeping China dangling for as long as possible.


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## QV (15 Dec 2021)

This government along with the NDP will probably pass a bill lowering the voting age to 16. 

Bill C-210 was tabled today by a NDP MP.

If passed, this will probably be one of the more destructive moves by this crazy government.


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## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

I’m not against that to be honest.  At 16 I knew what my political leanings were at that time.


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## Altair (15 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Maybe first find the profits and prove they haven't been paid out in salaries, reinvested in G5 rollout and unprofitable projects to extend wireless and internet to Canadians in remote areas, used to retire bonds issued to cover prior tech rollouts, or paid out at bog-standard percentages to shareholders?  Prices and gross revenues aren't profits.
> 
> You (and many others) are already demanding confiscation on the basis of a decision the government hasn't even made.  Rule of law is about predictability.  You (and many others) are on the wrong side.  Bad place to be.


Telus had a profit of 1.3 billion, bell 2.7 billion.

What they choose to do with this money is none of my concern. If they need to dip into their profits to replace equipment they should have known better than to install in the first place, well, that's on them. 

What are they going to do? Leave Canada? Good luck. Try to pass on costs to consumers? Well, Roger's didn't go full stupid and consumers would just switch to them. 

Screw em.


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## Altair (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> I’m not against that to be honest.  At 16 I knew what my political leanings were at that time.


Young people don't vote CPC, so of course let us never allow them to vote.


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## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Young people don't vote CPC, so of course let us never allow them to vote.


They also tend to have a lower voter turn out rate for various reasons.


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## daftandbarmy (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> They also tend to have a lower voter turn out rate for various reasons.



The younger they are, the less they vote.

Which explains alot of the policies the various parties throw out around election time 










						Voter Turnout by Sex and Age – Elections Canada
					

Voter Turnout by Sex and Age.



					www.elections.ca


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## Altair (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> They also tend to have a lower voter turn out rate for various reasons.


Yes, and I think certain sectors of the political spectrum are more than happy with this.

Which is why allowing a larger pool of young people to vote would be so upsetting.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> I’m not against that to be honest.  At 16 I knew what my political leanings were at that time.



We don't let 16 year olds, drink, buy weed, go to war, leave school without a parents permission, amongst a myriad of other adult decisions; and they are protected behind the young offenders act but we think they should have a say in the direction of the country ? 

This country seems hell bent to continue to find more ways to self destruct.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Dec 2021)

> Telus had a profit of 1.3 billion, bell 2.7 billion.



Sure.  And where does it go?  Telus's profit margin is running around 7.5%.  BCE's is around 12.5% and Rogers's is around 11.5%.  Explain whether these margins are excessively high or not, and if you think they are, why.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Dec 2021)

Nothing wrong with 16-year-olds voting as long as they face all the responsibilities and liabilities of an adult, I suppose.

That means if their still-maturing judgement lands them in adult courts facing ruination of all or a good portion of their lives, they're SOL.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Nothing wrong with 16-year-olds voting as long as they face all the responsibilities and liabilities of an adult, I suppose.
> 
> That means if their still-maturing judgement lands them in adult courts facing ruination of all or a good portion of their lives, they're SOL.



I'd be cool with that compromise


----------



## QV (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> I’m not against that to be honest.  At 16 I knew what my political leanings were at that time.











						Maturation of the adolescent brain
					

Adolescence is the developmental epoch during which children become adults – intellectually, physically, hormonally, and socially. Adolescence is a tumultuous time, full of changes and transformations. The pubertal transition to adulthood involves ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Brain development continues until about 25.  People aged 16 have a long way to go for mature brain development.

In order to vote you should meet the following criteria:

1. Age 25 to 75;
2. Pay income taxes above the min threshold; and
3. Be a citizen (though I'd entertain an argument for permanent residents).


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> We don't let 16 year olds, drink, buy weed, go to war, leave school without a parents permission, amongst a myriad of other adult decisions; and they are protected behind the young offenders act but we think they should have a say in the direction of the country ?


And at one time, women weren't allowed to vote in Canada because they were too _"ungodly"_ and _"weak"_ or because _"men had greater capacity for reason and that men’s potential for military service justified more rights."_


----------



## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> And at one time, women weren't allowed to vote in Canada because they were too _"ungodly"_ and _"weak"_ or because _"men had greater capacity for reason and that men’s potential for military service justified more rights."_


We trust a 16 year old with a gun, a car, getting a job and can technically still move out on their own if they want.  I see no real issue other than those on the right that fear that vote.

Funny how some lament the future our children will inherit and yet have no issues telling them to sit down while the “adults” decide.   I know a lot of under 18s more informed than some adults.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> We trust a 16 year old with a gun, a car, getting a job and can technically still move out on their own if they want.  I see no real issue other than those on the right that fear that vote.
> 
> Funny how some lament the future our children will inherit and yet have no issues telling them to sit down while the “adults” decide.   I know a lot of under 18s more informed than some adults.





The Bread Guy said:


> And at one time, women weren't allowed to vote in Canada because they were too _"ungodly"_ and _"weak"_ or because _"men had greater capacity for reason and that men’s potential for military service justified more rights."_



It really doesn't matter how I feel or anyone who doesn't agree.  If the Dippers and Libs want it its going to happen.  

I will just sit back and watch it all unfold.


----------



## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> It really doesn't matter how I feel or anyone who doesn't agree.  If the Dippers and Libs want it its going to happen.
> 
> I will just sit back and watch it all unfold.


Of course they do. They know it benefits them.   That does not mean a 16 year old should not be able to vote if deemed capable of doing so.  If capable let them if not then don’t. 

So far I don’t see much that convinces me that they are not capable of voting.


----------



## Kat Stevens (15 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> Of course they do. They know it benefits them.   That does not mean a 16 year old should not be able to vote if deemed capable of doing so.  If capable let them if not then don’t.
> 
> So far I don’t see much that convinces me that they are not capable of voting.


How many 16 year olds have you raised?


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

So if we l lower the voting age to 16 in Canada do we lower the eligibility to run in elections ?   Or the senate, right now you have to be 30 ?

How about in municipal and Provincial elections, would this cover all elections in Canada ?

I mean if you can vote you can run, seems only fair.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> So if we l lower the voting age to 16 in Canada do we lower the eligibility to run in elections ?   Or the senate, right now you have to be 30 ?
> 
> How about in municipal and Provincial elections, would this cover all elections in Canada ?


Well, to be entirely fair, there are some folks below the age of 30 who might do a better job as a Senator than some of the incumbents.  And that applies to all levels of politics.  Sixteen may be a titch too young, but not all young adults are created equal, either.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, to be entirely fair, there are some folks below the age of 30 who might do a better job as a Senator than some of the incumbents.  And that applies to all levels of politics.  Sixteen may be a titch too young, but not all young adults are created equal, either.



But what about this:



The Bread Guy said:


> And at one time, women weren't allowed to vote in Canada because they were too _"ungodly"_ and _"weak"_ or because _"men had greater capacity for reason and that men’s potential for military service justified more rights."_



At one time women couldn't run in politics either...

If were going to let them vote they should be able to run.  That's how I see it.  Cant have one without the other.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> At one time women couldn't run in politics either...


Probably for the same reasons they couldn't vote - and that eventually changed, too.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Probably for the same reasons they couldn't vote - and that eventually changed, too.



So... Is it:

They are equal but not quite equal enough for you ?

Or

You agree, if they can vote they can hold positions in parliament and the senate ?

I'm just a bit confused by your responses.


----------



## YZT580 (15 Dec 2021)

QV said:


> Maturation of the adolescent brain
> 
> 
> Adolescence is the developmental epoch during which children become adults – intellectually, physically, hormonally, and socially. Adolescence is a tumultuous time, full of changes and transformations. The pubertal transition to adulthood involves ...
> ...


Sounds like ancient Sparta, except they were required to have served in the army as well.


----------



## Remius (15 Dec 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> How many 16 year olds have you raised?


One.  Your point being?


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> So if we l lower the voting age to 16 in Canada do we lower the eligibility to run in elections ?   Or the senate, right now you have to be 30 ?
> 
> How about in municipal and Provincial elections, would this cover all elections in Canada ?
> 
> I mean if you can vote you can run, seems only fair.


No one runs for senate at this time.  Age to run is in the elections act.  It states that anyone eligible to vote can run.  Not exactly in those words but essentially the same.  but if they change the voting age I would assume they would change the age to run.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Sure.  And where does it go?  Telus's profit margin is running around 7.5%.  BCE's is around 12.5% and Rogers's is around 11.5%.  Explain whether these margins are excessively high or not, and if you think they are, why.


Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

They installed it knowing full well it may be banned, they can suck it up and say to have it removed.


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> One.  Your point being?


Four here, two of each, and at 16 I wasn't very happy about giving the hormonally supercharged little darlings a cell phone, let alone the power to effect the running of the nation. But of course yours was/is probably the most super responsible  mature adult(ish) person, like, ever. Mine were typical teenagers with all the focus of a goldfish.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (16 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> So if we l lower the voting age to 16 in Canada do we lower the eligibility to run in elections ?   Or the senate, right now you have to be 30 ?
> 
> How about in municipal and Provincial elections, would this cover all elections in Canada ?
> 
> I mean if you can vote you can run, seems only fair.



So what?  How many 18 to 20 year olds have run as candidates in federal elections in the more than 50 years since the voting age was lowered to 18?  Or more specifically, how many have been elected . . . some, but all (save one 20 y.o. elected in 1974) ended up on the Hill due to the unique circumstances that saw the NDP make incredible gains in Quebec in the 2011 election.  One held his seat in the next election but the other youngsters went back and finished their degrees at McGill.

As for provinces following suit, BC held to age 21 for provincial elections until 1992, 22 years after the federal change.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> Four here, two of each, and at 16 I wasn't very happy about giving the hormonally supercharged little darlings a cell phone, let alone the power to effect the running of the nation. But of course yours was/is probably the most super responsible  mature adult(ish) person, like, ever. Mine were typical teenagers with all the focus of a goldfish.


Not sure why you want to get that way discussing this.  Seriously.  Come back with a serious argument for or against.  My kid and yours are anectodal.   Using your kids or mine as examples is a weak argument and frankly unbecoming of what I’ve seen you capable of posting.   

Do better.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Anyways…

Scotland and Austria currently have their voting age at 16.  In Scotland apparently they saw decent benefits of increasing turn out and voting habits by allowing that.

Also this link shows an interesting pro vs con that is US centric but could apply here as well.









						Should the Voting Age be Lowered in the US? Top 3 Pros and Cons
					

Proponents say teens are knowledgeable enough to vote. Opponents say kids aren't mature enough to vote. Explore both sides of the debate.




					www.procon.org
				




Depends on how one feels about it.  Personally I think the pros outweigh the cons despite the obvious political reasons for why the LPC and NDP would want this.


----------



## ballz (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> Not sure why you want to get that way discussing this.  Seriously.  Come back with a serious argument for or against.  My kid and yours are anectodal.   Using your kids or mine as examples is a weak argument and frankly unbecoming of what I’ve seen you capable of posting.
> 
> Do better.



First off, anybody painting "conservatives" of being partisan on this issue should just be smacked. It's a partisan play by the left to lower it and sure, the conservatives have a partisan interest in not having it lowered... but anyone trying to argue one party is being partisan and another is just being virtuous needs to smack themselves.

So pushing partisanship aside because I just want good governments and policies, I'm against lowering the voting age, I actually might be in favour of raising it. At the end of the day, humans develop differently and there is no one day we can pick, 16th, 17th, 18th, or 25th birthday, that has a nice clean cut-off as "you've now got a reasonably developed adult brain to work with," since some will be there at 18 while others won't reach it until 25, and others will never reach it. That's why it's called the age of _majority_ in that, for the majority of people will have a reasonably developed brain (of which there is also no objective standard).

I think a lot of that brain development has to do with the responsibilities we give people, a bit of a chicken or the egg game. I know moving out at 18 made me grow up quicker, I know being a Pl Comd at 22 made me grow up quicker. The trend these days is that adolescent youth are taking on less and less of those responsibilities. They are moving out later, entering careers later, it's completely common to have someone's parents calling a professor in post-secondary or dealing with post-secondary administration on issues, etc. Couple that with the evolving scientific literature that says adolescence continues into the mid-20s. There seems to be nothing that suggests that the age of majority should be lowered because "kids these days" are growing up faster / brain development is happening earlier, quite the opposite.

What "benefits" are there, exactly? A higher voting turn-out? How is that a benefit? I would challenge the idea that that in and of itself is a benefit. If higher voter turn-out is an indisputable benefit, then the argument should be about mandatory voting.

Also the whole "well it's their future, they should be able to vote on it," ummmm okay? Then why not start letting 8 year olds vote?


Now, here's a real interesting thought experiment that will probably raise a fuss... female brains tend to develop faster than male brains. How about different ages of majority for boys and girls, with the ladies getting to vote earlier.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> No one runs for senate at this time.  Age to run is in the elections act.  It states that anyone eligible to vote can run.  Not exactly in those words but essentially the same.  but if they change the voting age I would assume they would change the age to run.



I don't mean run for the Senate, I know they aren't elected. 

2 things and I'm done with this as the partisanship it ridiculous. 

1)  Ive met alot of 16 year olds in my 42 years.  Not one of them do I want voting on the direction of this country yet.  As @ballz said, we should probably be looking at raising the age if you look at the "data" from a non partisan lense.

2) As I've said before, it really doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks.  If the Dippers and the Libs want it's going to happen. 

Im just going to sit back and watch in unfold.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

ballz said:


> First off, anybody painting "conservatives" of being partisan on this issue should just be smacked. It's a partisan play by the left to lower it and sure, the conservatives have a partisan interest in not having it lowered... but anyone trying to argue one party is being partisan and another is just being virtuous needs to smack themselves.


The issue is unfortunately going to take a partisan tone one way or another.  Acknowledging that fact is an important part of the conversation.  So if one can acknowledge the partisan part and try to explain their view, then they should be smacked?   I didn’t see anywhere in the thread where anyone argued that one side was partisan while the other side was being virtuous.   


ballz said:


> So pushing partisanship aside because I just want good governments and policies, I'm against lowering the voting age, I actually might be in favour of raising it. At the end of the day, humans develop differently and there is no one day we can pick, 16th, 17th, 18th, or 25th birthday, that has a nice clean cut-off as "you've now got a reasonably developed adult brain to work with," since some will be there at 18 while others won't reach it until 25, and others will never reach it. That's why it's called the age of _majority_ in that, for the majority of people will have a reasonably developed brain (of which there is also no objective standard).



Age of majority (which is actually age of legal majority) is not the same as age of maturity which is what yiu are describing  Our society and others set various ages to be able to do certain things.  Voting age in Canada is 18, but in most provinces drinking age is 19.  In the US it’s 21 for drinking in many states.  Driving age is 16.  At 16 you can legally marry and have consensual sex with an adult.   (It was 14 until recently).  At 12 you can use a gun.  Age of legal majority is a set as the point we decide that you are an adult fir a variety of things.  Yet we have child support payments that continue beyond 18.

 Voting age does not actually have to be tied to that age (age of majority) but it currently is.





ballz said:


> I think a lot of that brain development has to do with the responsibilities we give people, a bit of a chicken or the egg game. I know moving out at 18 made me grow up quicker, I know being a Pl Comd at 22 made me grow up quicker. The trend these days is that adolescent youth are taking on less and less of those responsibilities. They are moving out later, entering careers later, it's completely common to have someone's parents calling a professor in post-secondary or dealing with post-secondary administration on issues, etc. Couple that with the evolving scientific literature that says adolescence continues into the mid-20s. There seems to be nothing that suggests that the age of majority should be lowered because "kids these days" are growing up faster / brain development is happening earlier, quite the opposite.


If you look at the pros and cons list there is some evidence to suggest that at 16, the “cold cognition” part of the brain is developed enough when it comes to things like voting.  From the link (which has sources).

_“Scientists believe that “cold cognition” skills, those used to make the kind of informed, well-thought out choices needed in voting, are solidly established in 16-year-olds.”_

And

_A study in the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science found that, “On measures of civic knowledge, political skills, political efficacy, and tolerance, 16-year-olds, on average, are obtaining scores similar to those of adults… Adolescents in this age range are developmentally ready to vote.”_



ballz said:


> What "benefits" are there, exactly? A higher voting turn-out? How is that a benefit? I would challenge the idea that that in and of itself is a benefit. If higher voter turn-out is an indisputable benefit, then the argument should be about mandatory voting.


The earlier someone exercises their right to vote the greater the chance they will remain engaged in that process for the rest of their lives.  Thus increasing voter participation.  You also add cohort years to the process.  In any election given a 4 year cycle (although that can vary if this current government is any indication) people that are voting for the first time are typically aged anywhere from 18 to 22.  That is within the age range where voter apathy is highest and engagement is lowest.  A variety of reasons explains this as that this the age range where major life changes can happen.  Moving out, Post secondary education, entering the work force etc.    When I speak of voter turn out I also mean actual engagement in the process.   Making it mandatory does not equate to greater engagement.   

I am however not opposed to mandatory voting.  In fact I think age should be dropped all together and a civics test should be passed in order to vote.  Either given in school or otherwise.  But that likely won’t fly.



ballz said:


> Also the whole "well it's their future, they should be able to vote on it," ummmm okay? Then why not start letting 8 year olds vote?


See the quotes I posted above about cold cognition.

I don’t think that equating an 8 year old to a 16 year old is a valid counter argument.  If the argument is a 16 year old can’t have the cognitive skills to vote or be politically engaged (and as such be equivalent to an 8 year old in that regard) then the same argument exists for any number of age related permissive behaviour.  Should the the young offenders age be raised to 25?  No.  How about joining the military?  17 or 25?    Guns?  Wait until you are 25?  




ballz said:


> Now, here's a real interesting thought experiment that will probably raise a fuss... female brains tend to develop faster than male brains. How about different ages of majority for boys and girls, with the ladies getting to vote earlier.


It’s likely why the age of consent in Canada was 14 for so long. Or why throughout history they were married off at early ages.  Using the fact that biologically and cognitively they matured faster than males.     Again ages of majority and voting age are different things even though we have them at the same age.   

But yes, it is an interesting thought experiment.  I doubt it would get any real traction (extreme feminists might agree with the premise though).  I’d be curious to see if there is any real academic or discussion on that point.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't mean run for the Senate, I know they aren't elected.
> 
> 2 things and I'm done with this as the partisanship it ridiculous.
> 
> ...


All I’ve seen is an acknowledgement of the partisan nature of the debate overall.  

I’ve also met plenty of 16 year olds that I would be very comfortable with allowing to vote.  Same with plenty adults I wouldn’t trust to allow to vote.   But our anecdotal experiences are neither here nor there.  

Agree with #2.  I make no illusions that the NDP and LPC are doing this for anything more than for advantage.  I’ve said so twice now in previous posts.   That does not however remove the merits of a debate or position on whether the voting age should be lowered or not. 

I see more pros than cons.  That’s it.


----------



## RangerRay (16 Dec 2021)

When I was 16, a conversation with my classmates was enough argument for me against lowering the voting age. Most thought Ronald Reagan was our President and didn’t know who TF Brian Mulroney was. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

RangerRay said:


> When I was 16, a conversation with my classmates was enough argument for me against lowering the voting age. Most thought Ronald Reagan was our President and didn’t know who TF Brian Mulroney was. 🤦‍♂️


16 year olds today are marching in climate protests, are rallying for change, are calling for the right to vote, and if enough of them are engaged enough on this level, let them vote I say.

Those that care to vote will, those that don't wont, and I don't see any real cons other than waiting slightly longer at polling stations and 16 year olds making tiktok videos outside before they go inside to vote.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

RangerRay said:


> When I was 16, a conversation with my classmates was enough argument for me against lowering the voting age. Most thought Ronald Reagan was our President and didn’t know who TF Brian Mulroney was. 🤦‍♂️


I’ve had similar conversations with grown adults.  Just saying.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Dec 2021)

Dropping the voting age to 16 would bring out a whole new level of bullshit campaign promises and vote-begging. 
Sounds like it would be entertaining to be honest. I mean how many adults fell for the plant 2 billion trees promise?
[The federal government has planted less than half a per cent of the two billion trees it pledged]

Anecdotally I had a scuba diving license at 12 and was safely handling guns and off-road vehicles. Ample evidence to me we can drop the voting age to 12.


----------



## RangerRay (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> 16 year olds today are marching in climate protests, are rallying for change, are calling for the right to vote, and if enough of them are engaged enough on this level, let them vote I say.
> 
> Those that care to vote will, those that don't wont, and I don't see any real cons other than waiting slightly longer at polling stations and 16 year olds making tiktok videos outside before they go inside to vote.


The sad part was, those were the “engaged” ones.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

RangerRay said:


> The sad part was, those were the “engaged” ones.


Let us be ever grateful for Google and the internet then, being a wealth of knowledge in people's pockets.


----------



## YZT580 (16 Dec 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Dropping the voting age to 16 would bring out a whole new level of bullshit campaign promises and vote-begging.
> Sounds like it would be entertaining to be honest. I mean how many adults fell for the plant 2 billion trees promise?
> [The federal government has planted less than half a per cent of the two billion trees it pledged]
> 
> Anecdotally I had a scuba diving license at 12 and was safely handling guns and off-road vehicles. Ample evidence to me we can drop the voting age to 12.


acquiring skills and being able to safely operate tools and equipment do not make up the essence of a mature person.  That only comes from time.  Without time we tend to make decisions based upon extraneous issues.  For example, nice socks, nice hairdo and before you say it, older people do the same we just maybe do it less.  Look at your local high school graduation photos: how many class presidents are simple plain people?  Contrast with the number with a cool car or clothes or athletic prowess.  Those who want to influence the future are focusing on university and late high school age groups because they know that these minds are the most easily influenced by trends.  Those are the minds we don't want making irreversible decisions.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

An interesting read on the history of voting rights in Canada. 









						The Evolution of the Federal Franchise – Elections Canada
					

Information on the evolution of the federal franchise in Canada.



					www.elections.ca
				




Property ownership used to be required to be able to vote. 

I also found this part interesting:

_The First World War brought the greatest changes to the federal franchise. In 1915, the right to vote by mail was granted to military electors in active service. In 1917, Parliament passed the Wartime Elections Act and the Military Voters Act. The right to vote was extended to all British subjects, male or female, who were active or retired members of the Canadian Forces, including Indians (as defined by the Indian Act) and persons under 21. Some 2,000 military nurses, the "Bluebirds," became the first Canadian women to use this right. Civilian men who were not landowners, but who had a son or grandson in the Canadian Forces, were also temporarily granted the franchise, as were women with a close relative serving, then or previously, in the Canadian Forces._

Very Starship Troopers…


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> acquiring skills and being able to safely operate tools and equipment do not make up the essence of a mature person.  That only comes from time.  Without time we tend to make decisions based upon extraneous issues.  For example, nice socks, nice hairdo and before you say it, older people do the same we just maybe do it less.  Look at your local high school graduation photos: how many class presidents are simple plain people?  Contrast with the number with a cool car or clothes or athletic prowess.  Those who want to influence the future are focusing on university and late high school age groups because they know that these minds are the most easily influenced by trends.  Those are the minds we don't want making irreversible decisions.


Fair point.

We should also make the cut off for voting 70 years old.

Those old folks who won't be around in all likelihood in the next 20 years should not be making irreversible decisions for the rest of society.


----------



## QV (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Fair point.
> 
> We should also make the cut off for voting 70 years old.
> 
> Those old folks who won't be around in all likelihood in the next 20 years should not be making irreversible decisions for the rest of society.


Agreed.

Now we just have to agree on the income tax bracket that qualifies you to vote. We wouldn't want those who only leach off of society to influence public spending.


----------



## QV (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Sounds like ancient Sparta, except they were required to have served in the army as well.


I'm happy to include that requirement also.  I'd prefer to have mandatory service for 1 or 2 years out of high school in this country anyway.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

QV said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Now we just have to agree on the income tax bracket that qualifies you to vote. We wouldn't want those who only leach off of society to influence public spending.


Agreed. 

Those who make over 500k a year and hide their income and abuse tax loopholes shouldn't be allowed to vote. 

Let the common people vote.


----------



## QV (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Those who make over 500k a year and hide their income and abuse tax loopholes shouldn't be allowed to vote.
> 
> Let the common people vote.


Agreed. 

And only the common people who earn enough to pay income tax can vote.


----------



## blacktriangle (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Fair point.
> 
> We should also make the cut off for voting 70 years old.
> 
> Those old folks who won't be around in all likelihood in the next 20 years should not be making irreversible decisions for the rest of society.


I’d say that 16 year olds are more likely to chart an irreversible course for society than those 70+…


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

QV said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And only the common people who earn enough to pay income tax can vote.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

blacktriangle said:


> I’d say that 16 year olds are more likely to chart an irreversible course for society than those 70+…


You would like to say that but you would be wrong. 

Those 70 plus don't vote on long term issues. Debt, climate change, those 70 plus don't need to care about these issues as they wont be around long enough to feel the long term effects of these issues.


----------



## Haggis (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Let the common people vote.


Define "common people", please?


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Fair point.
> 
> We should also make the cut off for voting 70 years old.
> 
> Those old folks who won't be around in all likelihood in the next 20 years should not be making irreversible decisions for the rest of society.


Maybe you should check your privelege. You haven’t  been around long enough to make those assertions.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe you should check your privelege. You haven’t  been around long enough to make those assertions.


If people can make sweeping generalizations about 16 and 17 year olds, why can I not make sweeping generalizations about those over 70?


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

I never made any such assertions either. Your idea SMACKS of communism or some other tolitarian regime. 
The Gauls - when Rome was kicking their butts - discarded the idea of getting rid of “useless mouths.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I never made any such assertions either. Your idea SMACKS of communism or some other tolitarian regime.
> The Gauls - when Rome was kicking their butts - discarded the idea of getting rid of “useless mouths.


You didn't, others have. So if people want to limit younger people from voting, fine. But no one should be upset if we start putting limits on older people as well. 

Fair is fair.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Dec 2021)

> the obvious political reasons for why the LPC and NDP would want this.



...are exactly the reasons why the issue should be DRT.  No measure which is manifestly partisan should be permitted to pollute elections.

Old people think long-term.  They are acutely aware of mortality in a way that 16-year-olds are not, most of them have descendents, and most of them care about their descendants.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> ...are exactly the reasons why the issue should be DRT.  No measure which is manifestly partisan should be permitted to pollute elections.


The reasons for not doing it are as blatantly partisan as the reasons for doing it. A wash.


Brad Sallows said:


> Old people think long-term.  They are acutely aware of mortality in a way that 16-year-olds are not, most of them have descendents, and most of them care about their descendants.


I so like how you counter a sweeping generalization of mine with a sweeping generalization of your own.

Both arguments are farcical and yet I think I am the only one who realized that this conversation is a joke.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Dec 2021)

The reasons for not doing it are the same as they've always been: people that age are not fully mature.  Localities didn't set voting minimum ages long ago based on "Oh, this'll give the conservative party an advantage".  But now the desire to change is primarily motivated partisanship.

My sweeping generalization is at least grounded in common sense on all 3 points.


----------



## YZT580 (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> The reasons for not doing it are as blatantly partisan as the reasons for doing it. A wash.
> 
> I so like how you counter a sweeping generalization of mine with a sweeping generalization of your own.
> 
> Both arguments are farcical and yet I think I am the only one who realized that this conversation is a joke.


It's no joke if they are so power-drunk that they do it and ignore common sense.  The simple fact that it has been voiced for consideration removes it from the comic section and moves it into the criminal.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> The reasons for not doing it are the same as they've always been: people that age are not fully mature.


16 year olds can work.

16 year olds can pay income tax.

16 year olds can drive.

16 year olds can have sex with people of any age.

16 year olds can get married.

16 year olds can be charged as adults.

16 year olds can join the military (with Parental consent)

16 year olds can do all these things despite not being fully mature. So the question for me is, would I rather a 16 year old voice their opinion at the ballot box or drive around a 3 ton machine that could kill me? The answer to me is vote. But so long as they can do all the the above, they might as well be able to vote.


Brad Sallows said:


> Localities didn't set voting minimum ages long ago based on "Oh, this'll give the conservative party an advantage".  But now the desire to change is primarily motivated partisanship.











						Ottawa teen part of court challenge to lower federal voting age
					

“As much as we protest and as much as get involved, none of us have any say when it comes to elections. That’s really concerning for me.”




					ottawacitizen.com
				






> An Ottawa teen is among more than a dozen young people — one just 12 years old — who have joined a court challenge aimed at lowering Canada’s federal voting age.
> 
> The challenge, filed in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice, argues the Canada Elections Act is unconstitutional since it unfairly discriminates based on age. The law says citizens under the age of 18 cannot vote in federal elections.



It can be seen as a response to this as opposed to any overt partisanship.


Brad Sallows said:


> My sweeping generalization is at least grounded in common sense on all 3 points.


Oxymoron


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> It's no joke if they are so power-drunk that they do it and ignore common sense.  The simple fact that it has been voiced for consideration removes it from the comic section and moves it into the criminal.


What common sense is that? 16 year olds are granted a whole bunch of life changing privileges already, despite their supposed maturity, why would voting be all that much different?


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Localities didn't set voting minimum ages long ago based on "Oh, this'll give the conservative party an advantage".  But now the desire to change is primarily motivated partisanship.


Robert Borden did exactly that long ago.  Gave the vote to people he thought would give him an edge.

That isn't a new thing.  And people that argued against lowering it to 18 made the same arguments you see today.


----------



## mariomike (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> That isn't a new thing.



Nothing new about it.









						Liberals Want Voting Age Lowered to 16
					

Now, you've been asked questions. Answer them,   C'mon guys, his lack of an answer IS the answer.  He was part of a trade union so secret, and so powerful that it reaches the highest levels of society and carries out a secret agenda of national domination. He cant admit that hes a member or...




					www.navy.ca


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

Another interesting take is the Demeny Voting system.  Sort of a compromise that enfranchises people that are under the voting age.  It, like anything else, has its pros and cons. 





__





						Demeny voting - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## YZT580 (16 Dec 2021)

Voting is both a privilege and a responsibility and should be approached with the gravity that choosing a leader deserves.  Perhaps then, Ottawa wouldn't be populated with such a collection of "yes men". Yes Altair, teens have a significant burden of responsibility already but most only affect them and their immediate friends and family: they don't influence society as a whole whereas voting has the potential to cause irreconcilable harm as those who voted for Adolf in the 1920's discovered.  While it is our civic duty to vote, that duty goes hand in hand with the civic duty to evaluate the issues for which we are voting.  The Swiss method of taking serious issues to plebiscite instead of leaving it in the hands of the councils has a lot of merit.  It is clumsy and slow but it makes every voter think a little bit.  We desperately need voters who think and understand the issues for which they are voting.  Many teens get it but there are too many who have not reached the level of maturity.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Maybe you should check your privelege. You haven’t  been around long enough to make those assertions.


Aside from Altair trying to make a point.  Gerontocracy is actually a thing and seen in some circles as a problem.  And with an gang population it may become more of a discussion.   We actually see it in the US as the average age of a US senator is quite high right now.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Voting is both a privilege and a responsibility and should be approached with the gravity that choosing a leader deserves.  Perhaps then, Ottawa wouldn't be populated with such a collection of "yes men". Yes Altair, teens have a significant burden of responsibility already but most only affect them and their immediate friends and family: they don't influence society as a whole


Because they are not allowed to. Same could be said of women before they were allowed to vote. They had a bunch of responsibilities but it only effected them, their friends and family, not society as a whole. 


YZT580 said:


> whereas voting has the potential to cause irreconcilable harm as those who voted for Adolf in the 1920's discovered.


Ironically, the voting age for Germany in 1933 was 20. It can be argued that more young voters prevent Hitler. 


YZT580 said:


> While it is our civic duty to vote, that duty goes hand in hand with the civic duty to evaluate the issues for which we are voting.  The Swiss method of taking serious issues to plebiscite instead of leaving it in the hands of the councils has a lot of merit.  It is clumsy and slow but it makes every voter think a little bit.  We desperately need voters who think and understand the issues for which they are voting.  Many teens get it but there are too many who have not reached the level of maturity.


Unless those plebiscites include 16 years olds it really doesn't address this issue.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> Aside from Altair trying to make a point.  Gerontocracy is actually a thing and seen in some circles as a problem.  And with an gang population it may become more of a discussion.   We actually see it in the US as the average age of a US senator is quite high right now.


Senator, President, Supreme Court Justice.

All old, all clinging on to power, all refusing to let the next generation play a part.

Makes me happy to live in Canada with age limits. Age limit for senators, age limits for judges, and it can be argued that age limits for voting should follow suit.

I anecdotally know many old people who have voted the same way for generations and will never change their voting pattern, sounds like a trend and we shouldn't allow voting on trends, according to those who don't want 16 and 17 year olds to vote.


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Voting is both a privilege and a responsibility and should be approached with the gravity that choosing a leader deserves.  Perhaps then, Ottawa wouldn't be populated with such a collection of "yes men". Yes Altair, teens have a significant burden of responsibility already but most only affect them and their immediate friends and family: they don't influence society as a whole whereas voting has the potential to cause irreconcilable harm as those who voted for Adolf in the 1920's discovered.  While it is our civic duty to vote, that duty goes hand in hand with the civic duty to evaluate the issues for which we are voting.  The Swiss method of taking serious issues to plebiscite instead of leaving it in the hands of the councils has a lot of merit.  It is clumsy and slow but it makes every voter think a little bit.  We desperately need voters who think and understand the issues for which they are voting.  Many teens get it but there are too many who have not reached the level of maturity.


Let’s avoid the Hitler comparisons…

Thinking and understanding the issues is not a qualifier or a pre requisite to vote here.  Only that you be a citizen.  That’s in our constitution.  The Elections Act furthers that by adding what is required.   

If the qualifier is what you state then eliminate age and just make it a civics test to qualify.   That won’t happen though.  You don’t even have to be sober to vote by the way.  

I could replace everything you said about teens and replace it with “seniors” many get it but a lot don’t.  I’m in no way advocating the removal of voting rights for seniors but the logic is the same. 

Scotland and Austria both have a voting age of 16.  As far as I can see they aren’t going to hell and hand basket in some apocalyptic irreversible path.  

I’m curious about what people mean when the say irreversible or irreconcilable harm?  What harm exactly would 16 year olds bring to the system and how would they be solely responsible for that?


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> You didn't, others have. So if people want to limit younger people from voting, fine. But no one should be upset if we start putting limits on older people as well.
> 
> Fair is fair.


OK then at the age of 70 I should stop paying exorbitant taxes. If I can't vote and have a say why should I pay taxes?

An entire nation was formed under the "no taxation without representation" premise.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> OK then at the age of 70 I should stop paying exorbitant taxes. If I can't vote and have a say why should I pay taxes?


Sure, are we prepared to let young people skip out on taxes as well? Because they cannot vote and are subjected to taxes.


OldSolduer said:


> An entire nation was formed under the "no taxation without representation" premise.


Not Canada so I DGAF.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Sure, are we prepared to let young people skip out on taxes as well? Because they cannot vote and are subjected to taxes.
> 
> Not Canada so I DGAF.


Of course you don't. Maybe you should.


----------



## mariomike (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> Let’s avoid the Hitler comparisons…



Right. I was surprised he got dragged into this.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> Sure, are we prepared to let young people skip out on taxes as well? Because they cannot vote and are subjected to taxes.


Yes they are - and that's ok. I've paid taxes since I was 16 - so maybe just maybe the 70+ crowd - many of whom live on fixed incomes could use a break. 

I know you DGAF


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Yes they are - and that's ok. I've paid taxes since I was 16 - so maybe just maybe the 70+ crowd - many of whom live on fixed incomes could use a break.


So you feel that 70+ are a taxpaying citizens and should get the opportunity to vote but are just as ready to dismiss the 16-17 year olds, many of whom are tax paying citizens who don't have the opportunity to vote.

I see.


OldSolduer said:


> I know you DGAF


I DGAF about the USA and how they do things, and as such wont drag their nonsense into this thread.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> So... Is it:
> 
> They are equal but not quite equal enough for you ?
> 
> ...


Just saying that at one time, folks may have thought something couldn't be done for x, y or z, and eventually, things changed when they realized that maybe the excuses weren't quite as viable as first thought.  We'll have to see how this one unfolds.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> So you feel that 70+ are a taxpaying citizens and should get the opportunity to vote but are just as ready to dismiss the 16-17 year olds, many of whom are tax paying citizens who don't have the opportunity to vote.
> 
> I see.
> 
> I DGAF about the USA and how they do things, and as such wont drag their nonsense into this thread.


Did I say 16 and 17 year old people shouldn't vote? 

What I'm saying is your proposal is so wrong it begs to be challenged. THEREFORE tell me WHY 70 year old people should be denied the RIGHT to vote.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Did I say 16 and 17 year old people shouldn't vote?
> 
> What I'm saying is your proposal is so wrong it begs to be challenged. THEREFORE tell me WHY 70 year old people should be denied the RIGHT to vote.


I'm saying the same logic that people use to say 16-17 years olds shouldn't vote could just as easily be applied to those 70 plus.

Food for thought.


----------



## MilEME09 (16 Dec 2021)

This is my argument, if you add 16-17 year Olds to the voting population, how many would actually participate? Maybe 15% if we are lucky. We need to increase participation as a whole, not just add eligible voters


----------



## Remius (16 Dec 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> This is my argument, if you add 16-17 year Olds to the voting population, how many would actually participate? Maybe 15% if we are lucky. We need to increase participation as a whole, not just add eligible voters


Studies have shown the earlier they start they higher the likelihood of maintaining participation for the rest of their lives.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Dec 2021)

I'd be fine with 14 year olds voting.

Sure they eat the occasional tide pod but adults are dying by falling off cliffs and buildings trying to take pictures.

You could record repeatedly punching yourself in the face while singing the macarania backwards and thousands of adults will copy you on tiktok.

It anything kids might be even less likely to vote for X party simply because X party affiliation is a part of their self-identity.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> I'm saying the same logic that people use to say 16-17 years olds shouldn't vote could just as easily be applied to those 70 plus.
> 
> Food for thought.


And what logic is that? 70 year olds have a ton of life experience. Can't say the same for a 16 year old.

HAVING said this - because someone gets elected because they have nice hair or a great physique isn't a good sign of maturity on the electorate's part either.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> And what logic is that? 70 year olds have a ton of life experience. Can't say the same for a 16 year old.


So life experience is needed? How much more life experience does a 18 year old have?


OldSolduer said:


> HAVING said this - because someone gets elected because they have nice hair or a great physique isn't a good sign of maturity on the electorate's part either.


That Harper was pretty dreamy.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Dec 2021)

What kind of moronic idiot wants our teens to grow up faster then they do already??  Frig, with all the "death and life sucks" media they get exposed to now they are already sullen and defeated at too young an age.

Let them vote where the next bush party should be.....


----------



## YZT580 (16 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> Let’s avoid the Hitler comparisons…
> 
> Thinking and understanding the issues is not a qualifier or a pre requisite to vote here.  Only that you be a citizen.  That’s in our constitution.  The Elections Act furthers that by adding what is required.
> 
> ...


My apologies on introducing Hitler but the purpose was to provide an irreconcilable harm example.  He made promises that caused people who were fed up with the status quo to support him.  The end result is history.  You are absolutely correct.  Thinking is not a qualifier and that is a good thing but a little time to learn the ramifications of ones decisions is not a bad thing.  Nor is a year's compulsory service a bad thing as a qualifier to vote.  We do not need more voters but we do need more responsible citizens and if you can come up with a way to lower the age to 16 and produce responsibility then go for it.


----------



## Altair (16 Dec 2021)

YZT580 said:


> My apologies on introducing Hitler but the purpose was to provide an irreconcilable harm example.  He made promises that caused people who were fed up with the status quo to support him.  The end result is history.  You are absolutely correct.  Thinking is not a qualifier and that is a good thing but a little time to learn the ramifications of ones decisions is not a bad thing.  Nor is a year's compulsory service a bad thing as a qualifier to vote.  We do not need more voters but we do need more responsible citizens and if you can come up with a way to lower the age to 16 and produce responsibility then go for it.


I do enjoy the stipulation that 16-17 year olds need to prove more responsibility for voting than the 18 to 114* year olds.

*Currently Canada's oldest person, Cecile Klein, turned 114 in June.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Dec 2021)

As I wrote, the trade-off should be full adult responsibility, including criminal and civil liability.


----------



## Altair (17 Dec 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> As I wrote, the trade-off should be full adult responsibility, including criminal and civil liability.


I mean, it happens enough already that it wouldn't be a sea change.

Decent trade off I imagine, small change to the elections act and a small change to the criminal code.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> I mean, it happens enough already that it wouldn't be a sea change.


You have zero idea what goes on in the criminal justice system. Stick to topics you know.


----------



## Altair (17 Dec 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> You have zero idea what goes on in the criminal justice system. Stick to topics you know.


Young people being charged as adults?

I mean, this happened within the last 7 days.









						16-year-old charged with attempted murder after teacher stabbed in Montreal classroom
					

MONTREAL - A 16-year-old boy has been charged with attempted murder after a  teacher was stabbed in a Montreal high school classroom Thursday.




					www.therecord.com
				






> The provincial prosecution service said the teenager, who appeared in Montreal Youth Court Friday, also faces charges of aggravated assault, possession of a weapon for dangerous purposes and carrying a concealed weapon.
> 
> Prosecutors said if the teen is convicted, they will seek an adult sentence.




Fair is fair. If teenagers want to be able to vote as adults they should face the same consequences as adults, makes sense to me.


----------



## CBH99 (17 Dec 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sure they eat the occasional tide pod but adults are dying by falling off cliffs and buildings trying to take pictures.


I’m doing a presentation at work tomorrow, and I think I need to steal this line 😅


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Dec 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Sure they eat the occasional tide pod but adults are dying by falling off cliffs and buildings trying to take pictures.


A lot of society summed up in one sentence right there


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Dec 2021)

It's not the criminal liability that's interesting; it's the fiscal and civil liability.

I am not seriously in favour of lowering the voting age.   I propose a trade-off because the people who assume they're going to collect most of the votes want something for nothing.  ("We allow these things; therefore we should allow this thing" has no obvious limit except "all things".)  My cynical prediction is that they basically want to float one "legalize marijuana" plank every few years (shouldn't tax the imagination too much) for an election and then ignore young people the rest of the time, including perhaps not even honouring the election promise.  Supposing proponents accepted the trade-off, it would be only a short time before they would be clamouring to pass laws selectively limiting the autonomy of under-18s again.  (Passing laws to protect people from themselves is institutionally ingrained in those parties.)  The first such law should be a legislated trigger for lifting the voting age back to 18.  There will be some high-profile (media) stories about youngsters getting themselves in over their heads financially, or someone whose life has been ruined and is unable to meaningfully sue for compensation because youngsters have few assets, and the ball will begin rolling.  The response from teachers having to face students as adult equals alone would be entertaining.

"Some voters are fools, so we ought allow more fools to vote" is not a compelling argument.  If maturity increases non-linearly in the closing teen years, the gap descending from one cohort year to the next lower becomes larger with each step.


----------



## kratz (17 Dec 2021)

Flip the coin...the UN and some member countries define youth up to the age of 25, even 30. 

If we raise adult responsibilities, including the vote until age 30 vs lowering the age to 16, how would that go?  🍿


----------



## torg003 (17 Dec 2021)

Just go back to 21 yrs. old being the legal adult age (the way it was before the baby boomers demanded it be lowered to 18).


----------



## Remius (17 Dec 2021)

torg003 said:


> Just go back to 21 yrs. old being the legal adult age (the way it was before the baby boomers demanded it be lowered to 18).


If we are going to go back to that how about we add property ownership as part of that. 

I say that tongue and cheek but it used to be a requirement.

At the end of the day the only requirement in the constitution is being a citizen. 

So we can subjectively tie whatever age requirement we want based on whatever metric (drinking age, driving age, taxes, working, civil and legal liability) etc etc.  No one scan agree though. 

Just drop age, add a test.  Or use the Demeny Voting, which may be a good compromise.  

Until it can sort itself out status quo remains.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Dec 2021)

Remius said:


> ... Just drop age, add a test ...


Instead of how "mature" a voter or someone running for office is, how about "how much do you know about what the level of government you want to work in?"  Quick civics test for voters & candidates as a way in to the ballot booth or the office?

Would you rather have a 17-year-old who knows realistically what can be done voting/running for office over, say, a 50-year-old who can't even tell you correctly what the level of government they're voting/running for does?

Discuss ....


----------



## Altair (17 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Instead of how "mature" a voter or someone running for office is, how about "how much do you know about what the level of government you want to work in?"  Quick civics test for voters & candidates as a way in to the ballot booth or the office?
> 
> Would you rather have a 17-year-old who knows realistically what can be done voting/running for office over, say, a 50-year-old who can't even tell you correctly what the level of government they're voting/running for does?
> 
> Discuss ....


If we had multiple levels of government being elected on the same day, it would be cool to have a bunch of names with no party affiliation, and a blank spot for federal, provincial and municipal candidates that the voter needed to put these names into.

Those that got the correct person for the right level of government has their vote counted.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Dec 2021)

It does remind me of how many times people tell me the Prime Minister is responsible for fixing their streets’ potholes, or thinking that the local council has anything to do with forestry or wildlife management…


----------



## RangerRay (17 Dec 2021)

Young people may not be the bulwarks of democracy. According to research, they may have given up on it and are open to authoritarianism. 









						7 worrying charts about the state of democracy in America (and beyond)
					

Seven charts that might make you fear for democracy's future — in America, and around the world.




					www.vox.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Dec 2021)

RangerRay said:


> It does remind me of how many times people tell me the Prime Minister is responsible for fixing their streets’ potholes, or thinking that the local council has anything to do with forestry or wildlife management…


Got that aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the time when I used to report on city hall as a reporter - sadly, sometimes council didn't realize that they couldn't move the levers of some bits of power, only express non-binding opinions via resolutions.


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Dec 2021)

RangerRay said:


> Young people may not be the bulwarks of democracy. According to research, they may have given up on it and are open to authoritarianism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's some not very comforting data right there.


----------



## torg003 (17 Dec 2021)

Not too surprising.  My nieces and nephews tend to reflect those views.  Not too enamored with democracy (most don't bother to vote) and seem more open to more authoritarian type governance  (leaders or parties who would get things done more directly instead of wasting so much time with argument and disagreement).  May be due to declining educational standards and/or too much reliance on social media for info.


----------



## Altair (17 Dec 2021)

torg003 said:


> Not too surprising.  My nieces and nephews tend to reflect those views.  Not too enamored with democracy (most don't bother to vote) and seem more open to more authoritarian type governance  (leaders or parties who would get things done more directly instead of wasting so much time with argument and disagreement).  May be due to declining educational standards and/or too much reliance on social media for info.


Less to do this and more to do with democracy being ineffective at times.

For those wanting immediate drastic action on climate change for example, having to go through parliament or congress with compromising and watering down of proposals is less attractive than someone just being able to get things done.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Dec 2021)

Sounds a lot like “I alone can fix it”. That doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. 

Anakin Skywalker, through the malignant influence of Chancellor Palpatine (Darth Sideous) became frustrated with the Galactic Senate.  That ended well. 

It scares me that young people feel that way.


----------



## YZT580 (17 Dec 2021)

torg003 said:


> Not too surprising.  My nieces and nephews tend to reflect those views.  Not too enamored with democracy (most don't bother to vote) and seem more open to more authoritarian type governance  (leaders or parties who would get things done more directly instead of wasting so much time with argument and disagreement).  May be due to declining educational standards and/or too much reliance on social media for info.


On a serious note, Couldn't this concept be what Justin was alluding to when he said that he admired the Chinese dictatorship?


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Dec 2021)

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been


   Winston Churchill


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> If we had multiple levels of government being elected on the same day, it would be cool to have a bunch of names with no party affiliation, and a blank spot for federal, provincial and municipal candidates that the voter needed to put these names into.
> 
> Those that got the correct person for the right level of government has their vote counted.


Harsh, but ... culling, indeed


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Dec 2021)

"Can't get this thing done in a democracy!"

"Sure.  But look at all the others things that democracies did in the past 250 years."


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Dec 2021)

Some of the latest on the "what to do about Quebec" thing ...


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau shares his late father's disdain for the constitutional "notwithstanding clause" and he's not ruling out asking the Supreme Court to weigh in on Quebec's pre-emptive use of it to trample the rights of religious minorities.
> 
> In a year-end interview with the Ottawa bureau of The Canadian Press, Trudeau said the the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is supposed to be "a bulwark against popular measures that attack the rights of … minorities."
> 
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Some of the latest on the "what to do about Quebec" thing ...



I'd be surprised if any Canadian politician would touch this. Que has too many seats at play for this to quantify any actual action.


----------



## Altair (19 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'd be surprised if any Canadian politician would touch this. Que has too many seats at play for this to quantify any actual action.


NDP has because, you know, Singh. 

But they are down to 1 seat in QC for a reason.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Dec 2021)

Altair said:


> NDP has because, you know, Singh.
> 
> But they are down to 1 seat in QC for a reason.



The NDP can say what it wants.  It's never going to form Gov.  It's just a petulant child yelling at shadows.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'd be surprised if any Canadian politician would touch this. Que has too many seats at play for this to quantify any actual action.


Agreed - but they're not being as ... ambiguous as they could be ....

*"Trudeau open to fighting Quebec law that cost hijab-wearing teacher her job"*
*"O'Toole says Conservatives are consulting on the 'unfair' Bill 21"*
*"Stop criticizing Quebec’s ban on religious symbols, Erin O’Toole warns Conservative MPs in tense meeting"*
*"NDP leader would back federal intervention in court challenge to Quebec's Bill 21"*
*🍿 *


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Dec 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Agreed - but they're not being as ... ambiguous as they could be ....
> 
> *"Trudeau open to fighting Quebec law that cost hijab-wearing teacher her job"*
> *"O'Toole says Conservatives are consulting on the 'unfair' Bill 21"*
> ...



Just talk and positioning.  Having said this, I'll happily smile JT takes this on.  Prove me wrong PM.


----------



## Altair (19 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Just talk and positioning.  Having said this, I'll happily smile JT takes this on.  Prove me wrong PM.


He could have at any time for the past 2 years. 

He says he's open to it. 

He aint doing squat


----------



## Blackadder1916 (20 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'd be surprised if any Canadian politician would touch this. Que has too many seats at play for this to quantify any actual action.



Surprise!









						'Someone has to speak up': Calgary mayor reinforces her stance on fight against Quebec's Bill 21
					

Calgary's mayor is standing by her plan to use taxpayer dollars to help fight a legal battle against Quebec's Bill 21, a piece of legislation that targets religious communities.




					calgary.ctvnews.ca
				





> 'Someone has to speak up': Calgary mayor reinforces her stance on fight against Quebec's Bill 21​Calgary's mayor is standing by her plan to use taxpayer dollars to help fight a legal battle against Quebec's Bill 21, a piece of legislation that targets religious communities.
> 
> Earlier this week, Mayor Jyoti Gondek joined an effort created by Brampton, Ont., Mayor Patrick Brown to fight against the document, which bans many government workers in Quebec from wearing religious symbols on the job.
> 
> ...



Admittedly, municipal politicians do not have the same skin in the game as those at the federal level, but it's a start.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Dec 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Just talk and positioning.  Having said this, I'll happily smile JT takes this on.  Prove me wrong PM.



Federal Politicians know that there are too many votes in Quebec to risk for the sake of some basic human rights, so they're trying to whip everyone else into a frenzy to take on Quebec while they stand back and soak up the political capital.

You know, kind of like proxy wars:









						The Return of Great-Power Proxy Wars - War on the Rocks
					

If the United States fights with China or Russia, what type of war will it be? Will it look like the high-tech conflict envisaged in The Kill Chain or



					warontherocks.com


----------



## Altair (20 Dec 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Surprise!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oddly enough









						Stop criticizing Quebec’s ban on religious symbols, Erin O’Toole warns Conservative MPs in tense meeting
					

The Conservative leader has told his caucus to stop speaking out publicly against Bill 21.




					www.thestar.com
				






> OTTAWA – Erin O’Toole has told Conservative MPs to stop speaking out publicly against Quebec’s Bill 21, and to raise any concerns they have about it at the party’s caucus meetings — or not at all.


----------



## Altair (6 Jan 2022)

Erin O'Toole urges 'reasonable accommodations' for unvaccinated Canadians who need to work
					

O'Toole on Thursday accused Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of fuelling vaccine hesitancy by attacking those who haven't yet received their shots




					nationalpost.com
				




Nice to see O'Toole chasing that anti vaccine vote.


----------



## mariomike (6 Jan 2022)

> The Conservative leader says he refuses to criticize people who aren’t vaccinated and believes “reasonable accommodations” should be provided to them, like those who work in the trucking industry, to avoid service disruptions and labour shortages under mandatory vaccination policies.



For more on that,



> By January 15, only fully vaccinated Canadian truck drivers will be permitted to move the $650 billion in trade that crosses the Canada-US border, Ottawa has signaled to supply chain stakeholders.
> Washington has made the same decision, with an expected date for enforcement beginning Jan. 22.








						North American Supply Chain Preparing for Border and Domestic Vaccination Mandates: CTA - Canadian Trucking Alliance
					






					cantruck.ca
				




Personally, if I was a team truck driver, it would be nice to know if my partner has had his/her shots.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Jan 2022)

If I were vaxxed, I wouldn't care.  It's his life.


----------



## Halifax Tar (7 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> Personally, if I was a team truck driver, it would be nice to know if my partner has had his/her shots.



I think you over estimate how much people care about this anymore.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If I were vaxxed, I wouldn't care.  It's his life.



Whatever social media opinions are on the safety of their partners, vaccine hesitant truck drivers - even when solo - will not be doing border crossings.



> By January 15, only fully vaccinated Canadian truck drivers will be permitted to move the $650 billion in trade that crosses the Canada-US border, Ottawa has signaled to supply chain stakeholders.
> Washington has made the same decision, with an expected date for enforcement beginning Jan. 22.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Jan 2022)

Good for them.  Drivers and companies will rearrange schedules to suit.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Good for them.  Drivers and companies will rearrange schedules to suit.


And supply will go down, and prices will go up, yet again.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jan 2022)

At the margins, a little bit.  Mostly I expect the (very few) unvax international drivers to end up rearranging their work (essentially, swapping with vax drivers) in order to become domestic drivers.  The policy creates nuisance friction for very little beneficial effect.


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Jan 2022)

With the mass shortages in drivers already, it creates more problems, the only light is the work being done on autonomous semi's, while it could put long hail truckers out of work in the long term, short term it could solve a lot of problems if the tech proves viable.


----------



## Remius (8 Jan 2022)

I think the LPC were testing the waters with that statement about mandatory vaccines and letting the provinces know that it’s in their hands.  

As someone said, it might be that they start limiting healthcare options.  But so far the reaction from most premiers has been cold to the idea.


----------



## mariomike (8 Jan 2022)

Remius said:


> I think the LPC were testing the waters with that statement about mandatory vaccines and letting the provinces know that it’s in their hands.



Saw this in the news,









						Quebec to require vaccine proof for cannabis and liquor shoppers
					

The measure is just one of several the province is taking to stem the rising tide of new cases.



					www.bbc.com
				




It may, or may not, influence the decison to vax, or not to vax, of some of the vaccine hesitant.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (9 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> With the mass shortages in drivers already, it creates more problems, the only light is the work being done on autonomous semi's, while it could put long hail truckers out of work in the long term, short term it could solve a lot of problems if the tech proves viable.



We already have this technology, it's called a train... I don't know why people think this shall be such a game changer when we basically can already do this with very little risk.


----------



## MilEME09 (9 Jan 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> We already have this technology, it's called a train... I don't know why people think this shall be such a game changer when we basically can already do this with very little risk.


Trains don't go directly to grocery stores or warehouses


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Trains don't go directly to grocery stores or warehouses


We still need drivers to truck goods to the warehouses from the railhead then further on down the line. Captain Obvious here….


----------



## YZT580 (9 Jan 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> We still need drivers to truck goods to the warehouses from the railhead then further on down the line. Captain Obvious here….


but they do cross the international borders: no covid checks required.  You could even change crews right at the border to eliminate the train drivers from the equation totally.


----------



## mariomike (9 Jan 2022)

YZT580 said:


> but they do cross the international borders: no covid checks required.



Saw this in today's news,









						Canada pushing ahead with COVID-19 vaccine mandate for cross-border truckers - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Canada will require all truckers entering from the United States to show proof of vaccination starting on Saturday as part of its fight against COVID-19.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## MilEME09 (9 Jan 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> We still need drivers to truck goods to the warehouses from the railhead then further on down the line. Captain Obvious here….


Thus why I'm talking about autonomous vehicles for the trucking industry


----------



## mariomike (9 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Thus why I'm talking about autonomous vehicles for the trucking industry



That may be a long way off.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=997534101015406


----------



## MilEME09 (9 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> That may be a long way off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not as far as you think









						Robot Trucks Get U.S. Tests, Raising Self-Driving Safety Stakes -  BNN Bloomberg
					

Shipping companies and software developers are experimenting with self-driving trucks as a way to solve a driver shortage worsened by the Covid-19 pandemic, drawing fire from safety advocates who call the technology a risk to motorists.




					www.bnnbloomberg.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Not as far as you think
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I thought I read somewhere Tesla was releasing them soon ?


----------



## Spencer100 (10 Jan 2022)

Wow just wow.  I live in Windsor and work in logistics.  The government really is determined to destroy the economy.  Many truckers are anti Vax.  We have a shortage of drivers now.  I'm once again beyond angry.  This move is just a pure f@$$ move. To punish.  No logic no thinking beyond this group must be brought into line.


----------



## MilEME09 (10 Jan 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Wow just wow.  I live in Windsor and work in logistics.  The government really is determined to destroy the economy.  Many truckers are anti Vax.  We have a shortage of drivers now.  I'm once again beyond angry.  This move is just a pure f@$$ move. To punish.  No logic no thinking beyond this group must be brought into line.


To me it makes no sense cause most truckers work alone anyway. So to me logically, my question is, what's the risk in the grand scheme of things?


----------



## mariomike (10 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Not as far as you think



I took care to use the words "may be".  As in, maybe others can predict the furure. I wish I could.



> Tesla Inc has come the closest with its Autopilot feature, a driver-assistance system, but is the subject of a probe by US auto safety regulators.



"Driver-assistance system" sounds like they need someone with a Commercial Driver's Licence in the truck.








						Robot trucks get US tests, raising self-driving safety stakes
					

Shipping companies and software developers are experimenting with self-driving trucks as a way to solve a driver shortage worsened by the Covid-19 pandemic, drawing fire from safety advocates who call the technology a risk to motorists.




					www.thestar.com.my


----------



## Eaglelord17 (10 Jan 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Trains don't go directly to grocery stores or warehouses


True but I don't think this technology is really going to go anywhere. As I said we already have trains which are pretty close to self driving for long haul trucking. Short distance I still don't see a ton of benefit. As a society we would likely be better off investing in the train network than any of this self driving tech, especially as in a couple decades the personal vehicle is likely to be phased out for most of us plebs leaving only the wealthy with them.


----------



## Altair (10 Jan 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> True but I don't think this technology is really going to go anywhere. As I said we already have trains which are pretty close to self driving for long haul trucking. Short distance I still don't see a ton of benefit. As a society we would likely be better off investing in the train network than any of this self driving tech, especially as in a couple decades the personal vehicle is likely to be phased out for most of us plebs leaving only the wealthy with them.


*Ferdinand Foch* Quotes
Airplanes are interesting toys, but of no military value.

Made me think of that, sorry.

I think having driverless trucks with no sleep requirements or salary or benefits or vacations or pensions will lead to this being widely adopted for long haul trucking.

I can see most trucking jobs being short taxi runs, with a human driver taking over from a AI in city limits for drop off.


----------



## Remius (10 Jan 2022)

Long haul drivers could go the way of the milk man.


----------



## blacktriangle (10 Jan 2022)

Altair said:


> I can see most trucking jobs being short taxi runs, with a human driver taking over from a AI in city limits for drop off.


Yup. Probably acting more like harbour pilots, and likely done from some kind of ROC. Even that form of intervention would be less needed over time, but I assume functionality would be retained as part of contingency planning.  Also, while not feasible for everything, I wonder if there will be a shift towards more local production. You'd still need to be able to source and transport raw inputs, though.


----------



## Altair (10 Jan 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Yup. Probably acting more like harbour pilots, and likely done from some kind of ROC. Even that form of intervention would be less needed over time, but I assume functionality would be retained as part of contingency planning.  Also, while not feasible for everything, I wonder if there will be a shift towards more local production. You'd still need to be able to source and transport raw inputs, though.


Once the upfront cost of getting a self driving truck is costed out over time, those AI trucks will be cheaper to operate, leading to lower transport costs and thus likely more stuff transported using trucking.


----------



## YZT580 (10 Jan 2022)

Interesting thoughts but it won't work.  Although it is probably technologically achievable I can't think of an insurance company around that would be willing to provide insurance to an unmanned fleet so a driver will still be required.  If the driver is in the seat but not driving I would bet that he won't finish even the first trip before his mind and his eyes are elsewhere.  There will be an incident and it will be an expensive one.  the one thing humans don't do well is monitor.  If you have to pay for the driver anyway there is no advantage in paying for the extra computers, sensors etc. required to produce a self-driven transport.  Now having a partial system where the computer operated the throttle and was capable of overriding an error, much as the airbus system attempts to prevent some pilot error might improve truck safety but it won't save the owners any money.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jan 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Interesting thoughts but it won't work.  Although it is probably technologically achievable I can't think of an insurance company around that would be willing to provide insurance to an unmanned fleet so a driver will still be required.  If the driver is in the seat but not driving I would bet that he won't finish even the first trip before his mind and his eyes are elsewhere.  There will be an incident and it will be an expensive one.  the one thing humans don't do well is monitor.  If you have to pay for the driver anyway there is no advantage in paying for the extra computers, sensors etc. required to produce a self-driven transport.  Now having a partial system where the computer operated the throttle and was capable of overriding an error, much as the airbus system attempts to prevent some pilot error might improve truck safety but it won't save the owners any money.



But if you have a 'safety driver' on board....

TuSimple says its self-driving trucks shaved 10 hours off a 24-hour run​
Autonomous vehicle company TuSimple on Wednesday claimed that its trucks shaved 10 hours off what’s normally a 24-hour job.

The company tested its trucks by hauling fresh watermelons along a 951-mile route from Nogales, Arizona to Oklahoma City. The drive was part of a pilot project with TuSimple partners Giumarra, a produce grower and distributor, and the Associated Wholesale Grocers.

The run normally takes 24 hours and 6 minutes with human drivers and traditional trucks, but TuSimple’s automated driving systems enabled a 42% faster run of 14 hours and six minutes, the company said.

According to TuSimple, a human driver worked on the pick-up and delivery of the produce. But during the long middle segment of the drive -- from Tucson, Arizona, to Dallas, Texas -- TuSimple’s vehicle drove itself with a human safety driver on board.

A spokesperson for TuSimple told CNBC the pilot was done with a safety driver on-board partly to comply with a patchwork of local regulations in the U.S. TuSimple aims to operate its trucks without needing a safety driver on-board at all by the end of 2024. Its trucks can be driven manually if and when needed.









						TuSimple says its self-driving trucks shaved 10 hours off a 24-hour run
					

TuSimple tested its trucks by hauling fresh watermelons along a 951-mile route from Nogales, Arizona, to Oklahoma City.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## mariomike (11 Jan 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Interesting thoughts but it won't work.  Although it is probably technologically achievable I can't think of an insurance company around that would be willing to provide insurance to an unmanned fleet so a driver will still be required.





daftandbarmy said:


> -- TuSimple’s vehicle drove itself with a human safety driver on board.



There may be a few glitches to work out.









						Toronto suspends self-driving bus pilot after disastrous Whitby crash | Urbanized
					

Toronto has suspended its trial of a self-driving bus after a similar one crashed into a tree, critically injuring the onboard attendant.




					dailyhive.com


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> But if you have a 'safety driver' on board....
> 
> TuSimple says its self-driving trucks shaved 10 hours off a 24-hour run​
> Autonomous vehicle company TuSimple on Wednesday claimed that its trucks shaved 10 hours off what’s normally a 24-hour job.
> ...


That is an average speed of over 70.  Even running pin to pin I seriously question the performance.  The safety driver had to have violated rules concerning hours and breaks along with the speed limits and the truck is still part of the congestion equation and answerable to road conditions.  Rail traffic running centre to centre on a daily or even an hourly schedule in some cases makes far more sense.  One driver, isolated route no sleepers required


----------



## mariomike (11 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> run of 14 hours and six minutes,



Depending on Hours of Service regulations, maybe - or maybe not - that was within the limit?

Or, maybe a second driver relieved the first half way?

Or, could this be the future? < joking.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/goldfish-driving-1.6309485


----------



## GR66 (11 Jan 2022)

mariomike said:


> There may be a few glitches to work out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This shuttle runs (ran) right in front of our warehouse.  I'll be curious to find out if the driver had it under manual control.  Once or twice I've seen it and by the way it was moving suspected that the attendant was driving rather than the AI.

That being said, in the slightly snowy drive in to work on the 401 today my "smart" cruise control lost sight of the vehicle in front of me and started accelerating toward it.  Lane correction is also glitchy in bad weather, construction zones and even when seeing cracks that have been repaired on the asphalt.  

I think it will be some time before unattended vehicles are in general use on our roads other than on specific, controlled routes.


----------



## brihard (11 Jan 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Interesting thoughts but it won't work.  Although it is probably technologically achievable I can't think of an insurance company around that would be willing to provide insurance to an unmanned fleet so a driver will still be required.  If the driver is in the seat but not driving I would bet that he won't finish even the first trip before his mind and his eyes are elsewhere.  There will be an incident and it will be an expensive one.  the one thing humans don't do well is monitor.  If you have to pay for the driver anyway there is no advantage in paying for the extra computers, sensors etc. required to produce a self-driven transport.  Now having a partial system where the computer operated the throttle and was capable of overriding an error, much as the airbus system attempts to prevent some pilot error might improve truck safety but it won't save the owners any money.


Insurance companies will insure anything if it can be made profitable. They’ll need good data first, but once it exists they’ll price it in and go for it. Might be that we’ll see automated trucks do the technologically easier driving over long distance between major logistical hubs, with humans taking shorter distance local stuff.


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jan 2022)

why not do away with pilots?  automated flight has been a fact of life for several decades yet there are still two sitting in the front end.  There are far fewer potential glitches with aircraft than transports


----------



## Altair (11 Jan 2022)

YZT580 said:


> why not do away with pilots?  automated flight has been a fact of life for several decades yet there are still two sitting in the front end.  There are far fewer potential glitches with aircraft than transports


Pilots are only really there for takeoff and landing. 

Autopilot does a lot of the work as it is, and with AI I'm pretty sure the could handle most atmospheric events between point A and point B. 

Same as AI trucking, the long hauls between cities will be where we will see it first, with random occurrences than in the city.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Jan 2022)

Will be interesting to see what truckers out of work move on to.


----------



## Kat Stevens (12 Jan 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Will be interesting to see what truckers out of work move on to.


My money would be on "the streets".


----------



## Altair (1 Feb 2022)

Pot sector nets $15B in taxes, 151k jobs since legalization: Deloitte - BNN Bloomberg
					

Despite the layoffs and losses that have plagued most of the country's biggest cannabis companies, Canada's legal pot industry has made a significant economic impact since prohibition ended 3.5 years ago, according to a new report released Tuesday by Deloitte.




					www.bnnbloomberg.ca
				






> While Statistics Canada and Health Canada regularly release economic and sales data, the Deloitte report offers the most comprehensive look at how the industry has impacted tax revenue and the labour market since legalization.
> 
> All told, Canada's cannabis industry has contributed $43.5 billion to the country's economy between legalization and 2021, Deloitte said. The industry has directly invested roughly $4.4 billion in the economy, while $29.3 billion was sourced from "indirect" economic contributions, and $9.8 billion in "induced" contributions, the report said.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-conservative-anti-drug-1.3187024
		




> Stephen Harper says a majority of Canadians agree with his opposition to legalizing marijuana, proving he's not behind the times on the way forward on pot.


Just a throwback.


----------



## QV (2 Feb 2022)

Wait….what?

More than 200,000 mail-in ballots sent to voters in the last federal election were not counted, Elections Canada disclosed yesterday.  The number of ballot kits that were late, cancelled or marked as lost in the mail *was greater than the margin of victory*: “We are deeply sorry.”









						205,000 Ballots Not Counted | Blacklock's Reporter
					






					www.blacklocks.ca
				




If this is true and nothing has been done about it…except ”sorry”??… this country is truly fucked.


----------



## Altair (2 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Wait….what?
> 
> More than 200,000 mail-in ballots sent to voters in the last federal election were not counted, Elections Canada disclosed yesterday.  The number of ballot kits that were late, cancelled or marked as lost in the mail *was greater than the margin of victory*: “We are deeply sorry.”
> 
> ...











						Elections Canada: 205,000 mail-in ballots were not counted
					

Elections Canada says more than 200,000 mail-in ballots sent to voters in the last federal election were not counted, according to Blacklock’s Reporter.




					torontosun.com
				






> “We are deeply sorry for any elector who was unable to vote on election day,” said Susan Torosian, executive policy director for Elections Canada.
> 
> _Report On The 44th General Election_ — tabled in Parliament — shows ballot kits were sent to 1,274,447 electors who asked to vote by mail. Only 1,068,543 were returned and counted.
> 
> Of the 205,000 uncounted ballots, 90,000 were “returned late and not counted” and another 114,583 were never returned.



Late ballots are late ballots, nothing to really be done there. 

As for the 114,583 not returned, what do you want elections canada to do about it, go house to house hunting them down?

You're making it sound like legitimate votes are sitting in a warehouse somewhere not being counted.


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

QV said:


> Wait….what?
> 
> More than 200,000 mail-in ballots sent to voters in the last federal election were not counted, Elections Canada disclosed yesterday.  The number of ballot kits that were late, cancelled or marked as lost in the mail *was greater than the margin of victory*: “We are deeply sorry.”
> 
> ...



Going solely by what was posted in front of the paywall:



> More than 200,000 mail-in ballots sent to voters in the last federal election were not counted, Elections Canada disclosed yesterday.  The number of ballot kits that were *late, cancelled or marked as lost in the mail* was greater than the margin of victory:



A late ballot isn't counted. A cancelled ballot cannot be counted. And anything lost remains lost until it is found. If it's a ballot for an election and it's found after the election, see point 1.

What would be interesting is to see the whole article, rather than the eyecandy rage inducing deceptive headline of: *250,000 ballots not counted.*

Do better.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Going solely by what was posted in front of the paywall:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's OK though because Elections Canada is already 'sorry' about how ineffective they are, which has already been widely reported:

Elections Canada 'sorry' people didn't vote because of long lineups​








						Elections Canada 'sorry' people didn't vote because of long lineups
					

Many older voters, parents with young children and Canadians with disabilities didn't vote because of long lineups at their voting sites, with Elections Canada apologizing for the wait but saying there was little else they could do in a pandemic.



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Scott (2 Feb 2022)

Oh I'd never accuse Elections Canada of being fantastic. The pandemic really showed off that changes are needed. QVs issue seems to lie with Canada Post or people mailing stuff late, or not at all.


----------



## Altair (2 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Going solely by what was posted in front of the paywall:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1,274,447 mail in votes were sent out, 1,068,543 were counted. 

1,274,447-1,068,543=205,904


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Feb 2022)

> If this is true and nothing has been done about it…except ”sorry”??… this country is truly fucked.



There isn't enough information to conclude that.  For example, "the country" can't stop people from failing to follow processes and timelines properly.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Feb 2022)

Scott said:


> Going solely by what was posted in front of the paywall:
> 
> 
> What would be interesting is to see the whole article, rather than the eyecandy rage inducing deceptive headline of: *250,000 ballots not counted.*



Or perhaps by reading the "Report on the 44th General Election of September 20, 2021" that was tabled in the House and upon which the story was based.









						Report on the 44th General Election of September 20, 2021 – Elections Canada
					

Report on the 44<sup>th</sup> General Election of September 20, 2021



					www.elections.ca
				




The section of the report dealing with voting by special ballot is section 2.8.1.

And take note that Canadian Forces Electors vote by "special ballot" in federal general elections even when that ballot is done at a military polling place.  Therefore the numbers counted or not counted, as the case may be, will include Regular Force members.  Hopefully, very few of those over 44,000 ballots not counted were from CF members.


Ballots issuedBallots returned on time and counted (with rate)Ballots returned on time and not counted (spoiled) (with rate)Ballots returned late and not counted (with rate)Ballots not returned or cancelled* (with rate)Electors absent from their electoral district voting by mail or at a local office, *Canadian Forces base* or correctional facility203,446158,693(78.0%)826(0.4%)19,231(9.5%)24,696(12.1%)


----------



## Eaglelord17 (3 Feb 2022)

What is more disgusting than the mail in ballots not being counted is the fact that only 57% of Natives Reserves had a polling station, leaving many Natives without the ability to vote in the last election as they were too remote to be able to vote anywhere else. That is a failure of democracy of the highest order.


----------



## QV (3 Feb 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> What is more disgusting than the mail in ballots not being counted is the fact that only 57% of Natives Reserves had a polling station, leaving many Natives without the ability to vote in the last election as they were too remote to be able to vote anywhere else. That is a failure of democracy of the highest order.


This is all no big deal provided your party of choice won the election.


----------



## Happy Guy (27 Feb 2022)

There is a reliable source (sarcasm / humour), a renown British psychic who made many predictions about Canada for 2022. Some major highlights :
PM Trudeau will face a serious scandal regarding Chinese influence / money in the 2021 election.  Received kick backs.  2:33
Doug Ford will rise in prominence. 4:32
A surprising new federal political leader will emerge to become PM. 5:22.  is Trudeau gone?
Foreign interference in Cdn politics. 6:29
Strong COVID restrictions will remain place. 8:37
Canada will remain loyal to the British Monarchy.  15:00.  Note in another video he is predicting that QE2 will die in 2022 and Charles will ascend to the throne.

This psychic claims a high success rate.

This is for entertainment purposes only.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bakx-priced-out-child-care-1.6369402
		




> Michelle Peters-Jones has only worked part time for the last nine years. In the face of expensive daycare options in Edmonton, it never made financial sense to work full time and have a bill for five days of child care.
> 
> 
> But now, after the new affordable child-care program began in Alberta at the beginning of the year, she's accepted a full-time job. And instead of paying $800 for three days of child care, she's now paying $500 for five days.
> ...



Nice to see praise for this program coming out of Alberta. I suspect the case is simiar across the country.

Except Ontario, the only province yet to negotiate a deal.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Except Ontario, the only province yet to negotiate a deal.


Patience, lad. It's an Election Year 😉


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Patience, lad. It's an Election Year 😉


Playing political games with a program that is supposed to assist families is absolutely terrible.


----------



## GK .Dundas (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Playing political games with a program that is supposed to assist families is absolutely terrible.


And your point is ?
I'm sorry but sadly that is how the system works.these days.


----------



## KevinB (2 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> And your point is ?
> I'm sorry but sadly that is how the system works.these days.


Or better put, why the system doesn’t work…


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> And your point is ?
> I'm sorry but sadly that is how the system works.these days.


Considering that 3 territories and 9 provinces have made a deal with the feds, I think it's safe to say the Ontario is an outlier here, and this isn't how the system works these days.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Playing political games with a program that is supposed to assist families is absolutely terrible.


Didn’t the liberals propose this to make it an election issue?  The timing would seem to indicate that given they were mulling a spring/summer election at the time .


----------



## GK .Dundas (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Considering that 3 territories and 9 provinces have made a deal with the feds, I think it's safe to say the Ontario is an outlier here, and this isn't how the system works these days.


To be fair it could also be the Federal government that's holding things up. It would not be the first time when the  feds have delayed ,while blaming the provincial government.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> To be fair it could also be the Federal government that's holding things up. It would not be the first time when the  feds have delayed ,while blaming the provincial government.


They negotiate a deal with 3 territories, 9 provinces, and first nations for childcare and for some reason...hold things up with only ontario?


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Didn’t the liberals propose this to make it an election issue?  The timing would seem to indicate that given they were mulling a spring/summer election at the time .


No, they put it in budget 2021. Election was september 2021.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> No, they put it in budget 2021. Election was september 2021.


Announced in April 2021.  Election speculation was well under way.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Announced in April 2021.  Election speculation was well under way.


Lets say for arguments sake that it was for the election. 

It still means that 3 territories, 9 provinces and first nations all managed to negotiate a deal with the feds on childcare in 2021. Here we are, 3 months into 2022 and Ontario still have not.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Lets say for arguments sake that it was for the election.
> 
> It still means that 3 territories, 9 provinces and first nations all managed to negotiate a deal with the feds on childcare in 2021. Here we are, 3 months into 2022 and Ontario still have not.


Because Ontario is having an election.  They’ll announce it when the time works for them.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Because Ontario is having an election.  They’ll announce it when the time works for them.


In the interest of comparing apples to apples, Quebec is also having an election in 2022, and they have not failed to negotiate a deal with the feds.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> In the interest of comparing apples to apples, Quebec is also having an election in 2022, and they have not failed to negotiate a deal with the feds.


Sure.  When did Nova Scotia sign on?  When was their election? 

Oct 22 for Quebec is pretty far off but I suspect Legault isn’t or wasn’t worried about his approval ratings. And they already have a day care plan in place so Ho hum as far as they were concerned. 

Each government will do whatever benefits them.  Does not mean they will al follow the same play book.  And who cares when the deal is signed.  It’s more important to see who gets it up and running first.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Sure.  When did Nova Scotia sign on?  When was their election?


July then August. 


Remius said:


> Oct 22 for Quebec is pretty far off but I suspect Legault isn’t or wasn’t worried about his approval ratings. And they already have a day care plan in place so Ho hum as far as they were concerned.


Again, holding up childcare for families for approval ratings is terrible. 


Remius said:


> Each government will do whatever benefits them.  Does not mean they will al follow the same play book.  And who cares when the deal is signed.  It’s more important to see who gets it up and running first.


Very true, but considering its already in place in provinces like Alberta, who signed their deal with the feds in November, it stands to reason that every month that Ontario could have had it up and running already. And a very important part of getting it up and running is, I think, coming to an agreement with the feds.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Maybe since the vote-rich areas of Ontario will vote Liberal even if Mr. Putin was running the deal being offered  isn't good enough.

Or maybe Mr. Ford is a better poker player then the others....


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> July then August.
> 
> Again, holding up childcare for families for approval ratings is terrible.
> 
> Very true, but considering its already in place in provinces like Alberta, who signed their deal with the feds in November, it stands to reason that every month that Ontario could have had it up and running already. And a very important part of getting it up and running is, I think, coming to an agreement with the feds.


Sure.  Welcome to politics


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Maybe since the vote-rich areas of Ontario will vote Liberal even if Mr. Putin was running the deal being offered  isn't good enough.
> 
> Or maybe Mr. Ford is a better poker player then the others....


The deal isn't good enough, but 3 territories, 9 provinces, and and first nations all signed on. 

I don't think being last in your class is an achievement.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> Sure.  Welcome to politics


I hope this comes back to bite him in the Ontario election.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> The deal isn't good enough, but 3 territories, 9 provinces, and and first nations all signed on.
> 
> I don't think being last in your class is an achievement.


Last one holding cards wins the pot.....


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Last one holding cards wins the pot.....


The last one at the dinner table gets the scraps...


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I hope this comes back to bite him in the Ontario election.


It won’t.  He’s going to win.  He’ll announce that he’s signing on at some point before the election.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> It won’t.  He’s going to win.  He’ll announce that he’s signing on at some point before the election.


The ONDP and OLP need to hammer home that Ford and Co literally withheld affordable childcare from Ontario parents for political gain.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> The ONDP and OLP need to hammer home that Ford and Co literally withheld affordable childcare from Ontario parents for political gain.


No one even knows who the OLP is.  And Horvath is NDP.  No one wants that again.  How is he withholding if he signs?  He’ll make a great announcement about how affordable daycare is coming to Ontario.  And if the NDP get their hands on it they’ll make it unaffordable to all.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Mar 2022)

Should probably seize the bank accounts of anyone who bought this. 


*Manitoba Liberals apologize for posting red dress with words 'overthrow the government'* 









						Manitoba Liberals apologize for posting red dress with words 'overthrow the government'
					

The Manitoba Liberal Party has apologized for posting in its online shop a red dress showing the words 'overthrow the government', which the party says was put online by a volunteer without permission.




					winnipeg.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> No one even knows who the OLP is.  And Horvath is NDP.  No one wants that again.  How is he withholding if he signs?  He’ll make a great announcement about how affordable daycare is coming to Ontario.  And if the NDP get their hands on it they’ll make it unaffordable to all.











						338Canada Ontario | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections
					






					338canada.com
				




This isn't true at all. 

OLP is in second place according to the polling. 

And he could have signed at any time after budget 2021, since may. He is the only premier in the country to have not done so. The program could be up and running now, as Alberta has shown. So he is literally withholding affordable childcare from the citizens of Ontario for nothing but political reasons. 

So the ONDP and OLP need to remind the people of Ontario how many thousands of dollars Ford has cost them so he can try to win an election.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Should probably seize the bank accounts of anyone who bought this.
> 
> 
> *Manitoba Liberals apologize for posting red dress with words 'overthrow the government'*
> ...


They sure should. 

After 3 weeks, insanely loud honking, foreign funds pouring in and occupying part of a city. Along with the dress.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> 338Canada Ontario | Poll Analysis & Electoral Projections
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How many provinces have started their day care programs Altair?  Will they be up and running before Ontario’s?

Ah Liberals are not in first place then?   And a poll taken a month ago?  So not terribly upset about daycare since everyone knows it’s coming regardless. 

Ford has lifted most of the pandemic measures.  And he’s removed paying for plate renewals.  He arguably took a firm stance during the convoy occupation.  So I bet his polling right now is up.  Maybe not by much more but likely up.  We’ll see when they do the next round. 

He isn’t going to pay any real price for waiting on this.  And it will be fresh in the electorate mind that he did sign on and that he’s bringing it in. 

He isn’t going to lose. He might get a strong minority at worst.  At best he gets another majority.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> How many provinces have started their day care programs Altair?  Will they be up and running before Ontario’s?


So as part of the deal that every province signs with the feds, every Province is to reduce child care fees by 50 percent within a year of signing. 

So by DEFAULT, every province has started their day care programs. 




Remius said:


> Ah Liberals are not in first place then?   And a poll taken a month ago?  So not terribly upset about daycare since everyone knows it’s coming regardless.


They are not in first place, but one cannot say nobody knows who they are.


Remius said:


> Ford has lifted most of the pandemic measures.  And he’s removed paying for plate renewals.  He arguably took a firm stance during the convoy occupation.  So I bet his polling right now is up.  Maybe not by much more but likely up.  We’ll see when they do the next round.


Which is why the OLP and ONDP need to remind the people of Ontario, especially the parents, the thousands Ford is costing them so he can try to win an election. 

Literally withholding childcare.


Remius said:


> He isn’t going to pay any real price for waiting on this.  And it will be fresh in the electorate mind that he did sign on and that he’s bringing it in.
> 
> He isn’t going to lose. He might get a strong minority at worst.  At best he gets another majority.


I wonder if ONDP and OLP work together instead of letting ford get a second term if he fails to get a majority.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> So as part of the deal that every province signs with the feds, every Province is to reduce child care fees by 50 percent within a year of signing.
> 
> So by DEFAULT, every province has started their day care programs.
> 
> ...


No Altair,  how many provinces have their subsided day care up and running?  Other than Québec which already has one?  If Ontario is last to do that then, sure..,withholding or whatever but by then the election is done.   So nothing is being withheld.  Not yet and not at this time.  My guess is that it will be up and running in Ontario well before the others. 

I’m not defending this one way or another.   I’m just saying that you being offended by a party that is using it as a political tool is not a big deal.  Your Federal Party has been doing it since 2015.  It’s normal politics.  They all do it.  

And he won’t pay a price for it despite what you think.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> No Altair,  how many provinces have their subsided day care up and running?
> 
> Other than Québec which already has one?  If Ontario is last to do that then, sure..,withholding or whatever but by then the election is done.   So nothing is being withheld.  Not yet and not at this time.  My guess is that it will be up and running in Ontario well before the others.


Is 50 percent cheaper daycare in 2022 not subsided day care?


Remius said:


> I’m not defending this one way or another.   I’m just saying that you being offended by a party that is using it as a political tool is not a big deal.  Your Federal Party has been doing it since 2015.  It’s normal politics.  They all do it.


There is only one province doing this in regards to a childcare program. This isn't a case of bothsides, its a case of one outlier


Remius said:


> And he won’t pay a price for it despite what you think.


If the OLP and ONDP are smart he will.

So its entirely possible he wont. 

In a just world he would though.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Is 50 percent cheaper daycare in 2022 not subsided day care?
> 
> There is only one province doing this in regards to a childcare program. This isn't a case of bothsides, its a case of one outlier
> 
> ...


When people are actually paying less then yes.  Are they?  That’s my question.  Are they right now. 

This is not a just world in case you were wondering.









						Ontario 360 Transition Briefings 2022: The Issues That Will Drive The Next Ontario Election - Ontario 360
					

Darrell Bricker defines what this election's 'ballot issues' will be by region and how our parties could position themselves to win




					on360.ca
				




Have a read about priorities in Ontario.  Subsidized daycare isn’t one of them or even near the top.  For a host of reasons.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> When people are actually paying less then yes.  Are they?  That’s my question.  Are they right now.


People are paying less right now. There is your answer. All across the country, except for Ontario.


Remius said:


> This is not a just world in case you were wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know you did poo pooed my polling data from February while posting poling data from 2018, yes?


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> People are paying less right now. There is your answer. All across the country, except for Ontario.
> 
> You know you did poo pooed my polling data from February while posting poling data from 2018, yes?


I didn’t poo poo it.  I agreed with it show a Ford win assuming that data holds.  It’s a month old and with the things that have happened I am sure his numbers have gone up.  Might not stay up though. 

Go back and look at Chart 3 of what I sent.  Read the whole thing not just the first chart from 2018.  The analysis shows what was important back then and chart 3 is the now.  Daycare still not that high on the priorities.  With Pandemic waning, the Economy and jobs and housing will be the the likely main priorities.  Daycare will be decided and no one will care anymore.


----------



## Altair (2 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I didn’t poo poo it.  I agreed with it show a Ford win assuming that data holds.  It’s a month old and with the things that have happened I am sure his numbers have gone up.  Might not stay up though.
> 
> Go back and look at Chart 3 of what I sent.  Read the whole thing not just the first chart from 2018.  The analysis shows what was important back then and chart 3 is the now.  Daycare still not that high on the priorities.  With Pandemic waning, the Economy and jobs and housing will be the the likely main priorities.  Daycare will be decided and no one will care anymore.


Childcare directly ties in with jobs, cost of living, and the economy, so we shall see if anyone can make political hay of Ford being a laggard in that regard.


----------



## Remius (2 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Childcare directly ties in with jobs, cost of living, and the economy, so we shall see if anyone can make political hay of Ford being a laggard in that regard.


Sure.  And it will be settled by then,  thus a non issue.  The opposition can try but they’d be better off focusing on things they can get traction on.


----------



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499057618043781128
Nevermind, Doug ford cheaping out on Ontario parents is the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Good!!!   Spend even less next year...


----------



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Good!!!   Spend even less next year...


Failing to spend on hospitals and lockdown when they are overwhelmed.

Failing to spend on schools, and lockdown when covid is spreading in schools.

Thats just stupid.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Yet they're still here....


----------



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Yet they're still here....


Not everyone is.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Not everyone is.


Well if we had gotten vaccines right from the start.......


----------



## Altair (3 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Well if we had gotten vaccines right from the start.......


Your partisanship is showing mate


----------



## Altair (11 Mar 2022)

Tory MP says carbon-price rebate cheques could help ease pain of high gas prices
					

OTTAWA - New Brunswick Conservative MP John Williamson says his province should go back to using the federal carbon price because at least it comes wi...




					www.thestar.com
				







> OTTAWA - New Brunswick Conservative MP John Williamson says his province should go back to using the federal carbon price because at least it comes with rebate cheques that could ease the current pain of the price at the pump.


Federal carbon tax>Provincial carbon tax.


----------



## YZT580 (11 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Tory MP says carbon-price rebate cheques could help ease pain of high gas prices
> 
> 
> OTTAWA - New Brunswick Conservative MP John Williamson says his province should go back to using the federal carbon price because at least it comes wi...
> ...


the 'stated' purpose of the tax was to raise prices so folks wouldn't drive so much.  At 2 dollars a litre I would say they have more than achieved that objective.  Perhaps it would be a good time to drop the tax so folks can at least get to work so they can pay the increase in their mortgages and credit card debt with interest rates heading skyward


----------



## Lumber (21 Mar 2022)

Ha! We can replace the question marks in the title of this thread with "until at least 2025!"



> Liberals, NDP leadership have tentative deal to support Trudeau government to 2025​



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeu-jagmeet-singh-working-together-1.6392756


----------



## brihard (21 Mar 2022)

Lumber said:


> Ha! We can replace the question marks in the title of this thread with "until at least 2025!"
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeu-jagmeet-singh-working-together-1.6392756


Not particularly surprising. This is about the best case for the NDP, and it gives the LPC some increased confidence to move forward with a policy agenda longer than eight months out. Plus nobody needs to pay for a campaign.

Nature of the beast in a Westminster system. There will be much angry gnashing of teeth from the CPC about ‘a coalition’ (it’s not), but this is simply a matter of maintaining the confidence of Parliament.

For the CPC, they’ll at least have the time to elect a new leader and get him or her well established and ready for when the election does finally come.


----------



## Remius (22 Mar 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeu-jagmeet-singh-deal-government-1.6393021
		


And it looks official now.


----------



## Scott (22 Mar 2022)

Gives the CPC time for, what, two or three more leaders before an election?


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Mar 2022)

Scott said:


> Gives the CPC time for, what, two or three more leaders before an election?


Pessimist! 
I'm certain that they do themselves proud with at least five leaders.


----------



## GK .Dundas (22 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Pessimist!
> I'm certain that they do themselves proud with at least five leaders.


If you think that I don't take the CPC seriously , I don't.
I stopped taking them seriously when I realised that a lot of their campaign speeches were literally angry tirades directed at a lot of the people who might actually vote for them. Including me.


----------



## Altair (22 Mar 2022)

LPC- 33.12

NDP-15.98

33.12+15.98= 49.1

Close as we are going to get in generations to the majority of Canadians voting for the ruling party/parties

Also very funny to see the CPC attack the NDP directly for once. Usually they leave them alone hoping that high NDP numbers hobble the LPC, but I guess the gloves come off when the NDP join the LPC in governing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> There will be much angry gnashing of teeth from the CPC about ‘a coalition’ (it’s not), but this is simply a matter of maintaining the confidence of Parliament.


You know more about the government than me. Why do you say it's not a coalition?



> A coalition is a group formed when two or more people, factions, states, political parties, militaries, or other parties agree to work together, often temporarily, in a partnership to achieve a common goal.





> A coalition government is a form of government in which political parties cooperate to form a government. The usual reason for such an arrangement is that no single party has achieved an absolute majority after an election.



It's not a coalition government technically but they still formed a coalition, no?


----------



## brihard (22 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You know more about the government than me. Why do you say it's not a coalition?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m thinking in the sense of no NDP in Cabinet.


----------



## Remius (22 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You know more about the government than me. Why do you say it's not a coalition?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A coalition would mean the NDP would form part of government.  Likely sitting with Cabinet.  This is an arrangement for support in exchange for policy decisions that they want.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> A coalition would mean the NDP would form part of government.  Likely sitting with Cabinet.  This is an arrangement for support in exchange for policy decisions that they want.


Not a coalition government but two parties forming a coalition. Same same but different.

I'm excited for the NDP to be forced to support something against the wishes of their base.


----------



## Remius (22 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Not a coalition government but two parties forming a coalition. Same same but different.
> 
> I'm excited for the NDP to be forced to support something against the wishes of their base.


It isn’t the same thing though.  It will achieve the same aim of keeping the Liberals in power though.

No NDP MP will have a ministerial portfolio and the NDP and a Liberals will whip their own members.  The NDP are not part of forming government.  They don’t have a seat at cabinet or participate in the privy council. 

Not a coalition so not a coalition government.  It’s still a liberal minority government propped up by the NDP.  They just formalized it.  So really not much different than what we’ve had.  They just aren’t pretending to be an opposition party anymore.

All this does is give us more of the same of what we had.  They are all just being more upfront about it.  This litterally changes nothing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> It isn’t the same thing though.  It will achieve the same aim of keeping the Liberals in power though.
> 
> No NDP MP will have a ministerial portfolio and the NDP and a Liberals will whip their own members.  The NDP are not part of forming government.  They don’t have a seat at cabinet or participate in the privy council.
> 
> ...



Yes it does.

The Liberals are now in a 'deal with the Devil'. 

A similar arrangement, between the Greens and the NDP, just about killed the government in BC as the NDP had to compromise like crazy to keep it's 'partner' happy, which caused huge conflict in both parties.


----------



## Remius (22 Mar 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Yes it does.
> 
> The Liberals are now in a 'deal with the Devil'.
> 
> A similar arrangement, between the Greens and the NDP, just about killed the government in BC as the NDP had to compromise like crazy to keep it's 'partner' happy, which caused huge conflict in both parties.


It still does not mean a thing from where we were.  They can formalise it or not.  We still have a liberal minority propped up by the NDP.  Situation no change.  

Do you really think that LPC as a minority gvt hasn’t  been trying to keep the confidence of the house by getting support and making concessions to the opposition since 2019?   

Again. This changes nothing.


----------



## YZT580 (22 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> It isn’t the same thing though.  It will achieve the same aim of keeping the Liberals in power though.
> 
> No NDP MP will have a ministerial portfolio and the NDP and a Liberals will whip their own members.  The NDP are not part of forming government.  They don’t have a seat at cabinet or participate in the privy council.
> 
> ...


As an opposition party they retain their time during question period which, coincidentally takes that time away from the remaining opposition.  As part of a coalition they would lose those questions


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> It isn’t the same thing though.  It will achieve the same aim of keeping the Liberals in power though.


Yes, same same but different 
It will keep the liberals in power.



Remius said:


> All this does is give us more of the same of what we had.  They are all just being more upfront about it.  This litterally changes nothing.


I wouldn't say it changes nothing. NDP will be obligated to support the LPC where as before they had more room negotiate.

It's going to be a nice rest for Singh. He doesn't have to do his usual 'Oh I really don't want to support the LPC <dramatic pause> but I'm going to block my nose and do it this time'.
Now he can just fall back on the deal. 

Suppose this was why Anand would come up with a fail COA as an options, not meeting the 2% GDP.


----------



## Remius (22 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Yes, same same but different
> It will keep the liberals in power.
> 
> 
> ...


They were supporting them anyways.  There never was an obligation and there still isn’t.  They can stop supporting at any time.  

The only thing that changes is that we now know when an election might happen.  That’s it.


----------



## ArmyRick (22 Mar 2022)

I think in the long term this deal will kill Jagmeet Sinhg's political career.


----------



## Altair (22 Mar 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> I think in the long term this deal will kill Jagmeet Sinhg's political career.


It might.

But I think sacrificing Singh for a national dental plan and pharmacare is a fair trade.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Mar 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> I think in the long term this deal will kill Jagmeet Sinhg's political career.


Hard to see what the NDP gets out of this deal, indeed - shit goes well, Team Red gets the credit.  Some real cynics say this could be (in one of a million scenarios) the first small step toward merging the Liberals and NDP into a new way-over-to-the left party down the road.

Then again, three years or so is a mighty looooooooooooooong time for both partners to be happy every, single vote.


----------



## Halifax Tar (22 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> It might.
> 
> But I think sacrificing Singh for a national dental plan and pharmacare is a fair trade.



Very rightly I'm sure our allies are watching.  They will be interested in our upcoming budget.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Mar 2022)

The best way to finance it is the same way the BC government changed its health care premiums - make working people pay by pretending employers pay.  Premiums for private plans go into funding public plans.  Those of you not retiring soon, well...


----------



## Altair (22 Mar 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Hard to see what the NDP gets out of this deal, indeed - shit goes well, Team Red gets the credit.  Some real cynics say this could be (in one of a million scenarios) the first small step toward merging the Liberals and NDP into a new way-over-to-the left party down the road.
> 
> Then again, three years or so is a mighty looooooooooooooong time for both partners to be happy every, single vote.


Thomas Douglas worked with Trudeau Sr. and got Canadians universal health care.

Not because it lead Thomas Douglas to 24 Sussex but because universal health care benefited Canadians.

Jagmeet Singh seems like a guy more concerned with Canadians than his political fortunes, which is honestly a little refreshing.


----------



## Lumber (22 Mar 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> I think in the long term this deal will kill Jagmeet Sinhg's political career.


I don't know... I actually think minority governments are great for the NDP. With a majority, the NDP can just be completely ignored. Singh can wave these plans around and play the card that he got more actual major policy accomplished that any other NDP leader, which could help him keep his role for a long time.


----------



## brihard (22 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> It might.
> 
> But I think sacrificing Singh for a national dental plan and pharmacare is a fair trade.


Fair trade. My taxes have paid for way dumber shit than to fix some poor kids’ teeth.

Pharmacare could be a surprise economic winner too. Improving the availability of medication to manage chronic health conditions could have a real positive impact on workforce participation and reduced absenteeism. Medication has been life changing for close family members of mine. It sucks that a lot of Canadians, in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, are unable to access it because they can’t get a good enough job.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Mar 2022)

Improving the availability of GPs is the only thing missing from this picture.  And I suppose it would have a lot greater impact than any other measures in contemplation.


----------



## Altair (22 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> Fair trade. My taxes have paid for way dumber shit than to fix some poor kids’ teeth.
> 
> Pharmacare could be a surprise economic winner too. Improving the availability of medication to manage chronic health conditions could have a real positive impact on workforce participation and reduced absenteeism. Medication has been life changing for close family members of mine. It sucks that a lot of Canadians, in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, are unable to access it because they can’t get a good enough job.


Both of those are great programs to help people, and I'm glad we are catching up to countries in Europe in providing them to all citizens. 

It sucks that the LPC could not figure out how to do it on their own, but if it takes a LPC-NDP partnership to do it, well, that's fine with me.


----------



## Kilted (23 Mar 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Pessimist!
> I'm certain that they do themselves proud with at least five leaders.


They did that when they were in power once... although two of them did die.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Mar 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> I think in the long term this deal will kill Jagmeet Sinhg's political career.


I don't know, he's managing to get some key NDP items implemented while only having 25 seats. In some ways, this is a bit easier for him, as he can get some big items pushed through without having to placate some of the more lunatic fringe elements of his party, that want things like Canada to pull out of NATO.

The CPC could have done something similar but seem to prefer sticking around as the opposition that disagrees with everything on principle., but affordable pharmacare and dental plans is something that really benefits everyone in Canada, so they'll probably just look kind of contrary unless it's a total disaster. 

The federally procured, provincially distributed vaccines set up a basic framework though, so as long as the politicians stay out of the way of the public servants in figuring out the details should be fine, and if it's the equivalent of a 'standing offer' that the provinces can order against kind of hard to argue against the bargaining power of the federal governement being much stronger than the individual provinces.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't know, he's managing to get some key NDP items implemented


Is he though?


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't know, he's managing to get some key NDP items implemented while only having 25 seats. In some ways, this is a bit easier for him, as he can get some big items pushed through without having to placate some of the more lunatic fringe elements of his party, that want things like Canada to pull out of NATO.
> 
> The CPC could have done something similar but seem to prefer sticking around as the opposition that disagrees with everything on principle., but affordable pharmacare and dental plans is something that really benefits everyone in Canada, so they'll probably just look kind of contrary unless it's a total disaster.
> 
> The federally procured, provincially distributed vaccines set up a basic framework though, so as long as the politicians stay out of the way of the public servants in figuring out the details should be fine, and if it's the equivalent of a 'standing offer' that the provinces can order against kind of hard to argue against the bargaining power of the federal governement being much stronger than the individual provinces.



Who in the hell was going to to work with the Conservatives ?  You're dreaming pal. 

The Cons know they will probably never form gov again.   So be a prickly thorn.  It's all they can do.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Is he though?



Yep, right out of their platform;

_....That’s why New Democrats are fighting for a national, universal, public pharmacare program to make sure that all Canadians can access the prescription medicine they need with their health card, not their credit card – saving money and improving health outcomes for everyone....

....A New Democrat government will work together with provincial partners, health professionals and dentists to develop a roadmap to incorporate universal dental care into Canada’s public health care system, and immediately deliver dental care coverage for people who don’t have any private insurance....


"https://www.ndp.ca/better-care"_


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

I can't wait to see how they plan to pay for this without raising taxes.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I don't know, he's managing to get some key NDP items implemented while only having 25 seats. In some ways, this is a bit easier for him, as he can get some big items pushed through without having to placate some of the more lunatic fringe elements of his party, that want things like Canada to pull out of NATO.
> 
> The CPC could have done something similar but seem to prefer sticking around as the opposition that disagrees with everything on principle., but affordable pharmacare and dental plans is something that really benefits everyone in Canada, so they'll probably just look kind of contrary unless it's a total disaster.
> 
> The federally procured, provincially distributed vaccines set up a basic framework though, so as long as the politicians stay out of the way of the public servants in figuring out the details should be fine, and if it's the equivalent of a 'standing offer' that the provinces can order against kind of hard to argue against the bargaining power of the federal governement being much stronger than the individual provinces.


Perfectly describes the conservative party.

Votes against gay marriage, now they are fine with it.(3 members voted for)

Opposes legalizing weed, now they are okay with it.

Every member of the HOC votes for adding gender identity or expression as being protected from discrimination, except 40 of 78 CPC MPs, now they are fine with it.

Opposes the tax free CCB payments to parents, now are fine with it.

Will likely oppose dental and pharmacare plans, as they opposed the national childcare plan, despite all the good they can do for Canadians.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

The dental objective probably won't cost very much (in the big picture).  It would be means-tested, and I doubt it is as severely means-tested as it could be.  I haven't seen anything yet on what expected cost of a pharma plan would be, and what it would or would not include.  Regardless, if the "new taxes" are aimed at employers (basically, conscript whatever is being paid into private/extended plans), they can effectively tax employees (compensation) but in a way which is hidden to most people who don't conceive of their compensation as one thing.

One writer pointed out that junior partners in these arrangements usually get badly whacked in the following election.  There's nothing in the package big enough for that price, and most of it is not actually nailed down, if the "agreement" is read closely.  Mostly it looks like the LPC rolled the NDP into 3 years of confidence and a risky future without the LPC risking anything that will raise voters' ire, and without giving up any control over the driver's seat.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I can't wait to see how they plan to pay for this without raising taxes.


I'm not sure you would be saying this if the military was getting a lot more funding.

Or maybe I'm wrong, and if the CAF found itself with 2 percent of GDP in funding you would be asking how they plan to pay for it without raising taxes.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The dental objective probably won't cost very much (in the big picture).  It would be means-tested, and I doubt it is as severely means-tested as it could be.  I haven't seen anything yet on what expected cost of a pharma plan would be, and what it would or would not include.  Regardless, if the "new taxes" are aimed at employers (basically, conscript whatever is being paid into private/extended plans), they can effectively tax employees (compensation) but in a way which is hidden to most people who don't conceive of their compensation as one thing.
> 
> One writer pointed out that junior partners in these arrangements usually get badly whacked in the following election.  There's nothing in the package big enough for that price, and most of it is not actually nailed down, if the "agreement" is read closely.  Mostly it looks like the LPC rolled the NDP into 3 years of confidence and a risky future without the LPC risking anything that will raise voters' ire, and without giving up any control over the driver's seat.


There are timelines actually

Dental care for children under 12 this year, under 18 next year, means tested year after that.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Mar 2022)

I find this part frustrating, as there is actually a lot in common in the various platforms. People that always disagree with you are pretty easy to ignore, but if you are working with someone with the normal give and take, when you hit a line in the sand it's a lot more impactful.

The Liberals did the same thing under Harper, and the CPC is really leaning into it now, but it's just massively unproductive and seems pretty childish. Parliament is basically a dysfunctional workplace full of high school drama.

A good idea is a good idea; and something that could improve people's health and potentially save governments money in health care spending by addressing something early should be an easy sell regardless of your political affiliation. We spend an awful lot on treating the end results of health issues so would be good to try and put something in place to help with preventative health and making sure people have the medication they need.

The rhetoric coming out of the CPC on this one is pretty ridiculous, as they are framing normal cooperation in functional democracies as a power grab (while conveniently ignoring the PC-Reform merge that happened via backdoor deals). PP wanting to get a vote of non-confidence is a total pipe dream, and he needs a much bigger soapbox if he's going to try grandstanding as a wee man.

Kind of wish we could do a 'Great Reset' of the political parties and start with a clean slate (as well as a smaller number of MPs).


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

It's a good idea, and it will still have consequences.

We have a wonderful entitlement to publicly-funded health insurance, but somehow it's difficult for many people to access a regular family physician.

Pet ownership increased with the onset of the COVID pandemic, and it became harder to access a vet.

Public dental insurance will increase the number of people booking time with dentists.  Has anyone looked into how much additional demand is anticipated, and how much excess supply is available?  A shortfall doesn't turn the good idea into a bad idea, but it does suggest more thought go into planning to meet a demand increase right now.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I'm not sure you would be saying this if the military was getting a lot more funding.
> 
> Or maybe I'm wrong, and if the CAF found itself with 2 percent of GDP in funding you would be asking how they plan to pay for it without raising taxes.



Absolutely I would!  I am not for blind government spending for anyone or any cause. 

I despise paying taxes, it feels like robbery.  Even though I know its necessary it should be controlled. 

I have also argued against further spending on us until we sort our proverbial crap out.


----------



## Remius (23 Mar 2022)

I look at pharma and dental at a macro level and how it will benefit long term.  Dental and drugs should be part of our overall health system.  It’s the sort of thing that will help take pressure off of our current health care system in a preventative way.

I’m not opposed to it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> I look at pharma and dental at a macro level and how it will benefit long term.  Dental and drugs should be part of our overall health system.  It’s the sort of thing that will help take pressure off of our current health care system in a preventative way.
> 
> I’m not opposed to it.



Pas de problem, figure out how to do it without levying more taxes.  Start making cuts.


----------



## Remius (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Pas de problem, figure out how to do it without levying more taxes.  Start making cuts.



That’s the catch. What cuts do you make and how do you do it without pissing off the party that is keeping you in power?

An HST hike of 1%?

Reduce other social programs to compensate for it?


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yep, right out of their platform;



Right. What I mean is it wouldn't be the first time Trudeau promised something big and failed. 

NDP probably shouldn't celebrate just yet.

He can kick a can down the road something fierce.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> That’s the catch. What cuts do you make and how do you do it without pissing off the party that is keeping you in power?
> 
> An HST hike of 1%?
> 
> Reduce other social programs to compensate for it?



Can we start with foreign aid ?   

In 2019 that was 6.6 billion.  Good start.


----------



## Remius (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Can we start with foreign aid ?
> 
> In 2019 that 6.6 billion.  Good start.


Maybe. I guess we’ll see what the budget shows in a few weeks.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's a good idea, and it will still have consequences.
> 
> We have a wonderful entitlement to publicly-funded health insurance, but somehow it's difficult for many people to access a regular family physician.
> 
> ...


This is why the feds need to make guidelines and the provonces need to make plans. Its useless to simply say its covered but not address capacity.

Same as for legal weed and childcare. Legal weed means nothing without the regulated dispensaries. Universal child care means nothing without childcare spaces.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Pas de problem, figure out how to do it without levying more taxes.  Start making cuts.


Economy grows, debt is comperatively smaller.

The middle ground.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2022)

Pretty good summary of the speech.

John Robson: Liberal-NDP deal is little more than congealed fog with a slimy aftertaste ​


> The prime minister put on his usual performance, from smirking empathy to flattering voters and boasting about himself and his colleagues. Then he spewed cliches about “a better future … for the children … and for the rest of the world” (as opposed to what, a better past for the uncles on Mars?) before saying a number of things that manage to be patently untrue as well as vapid, starting with, “Six months ago, Canadians gave Parliament clear marching orders” to, essentially, implement the Liberal platform.
> 
> Blah blah blah “strong middle class” blah blah blah “economic growth and climate action” blah blah blah “child care affordability, better health care and continued reconciliation with Indigenous peoples.” To hear it, you’d think Canadians gave his party a majority.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Economy grows, debt is comperatively smaller.
> 
> The middle ground.



Canada is almost at 90% Debt to GDP ratio.  

And our economy grew by .20 of a percent.  

The country will do what it wants but we're in no fiscal position to take on luxury services like dental and pharma without out raising taxes. 

I would hate to the gov that has to try and come after these bafoons and clean this up.  They will be highly unpopular.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Pretty good summary of the speech.
> 
> John Robson: Liberal-NDP deal is little more than congealed fog with a slimy aftertaste​



It don't care about JT... He has a skill for demonstrating idiotic behaviour/weak leadership; and the world knows it.  The sad part is we cant come up a guy or gal who can beat him.


----------



## Remius (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It don't care about JT... He's an idiot; and the world knows it.  The sad part is we cant come up a guy or gal who can beat him.


The CPC have a few.  They either don’t want to lead that goat rodeo or the membership won’t choose them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Remius said:


> The CPC have a few.  They either don’t want to lead that goat rodeo or the membership won’t choose them.



Right, like I said we can't come up with anyone who can beat him. 

It's a bloody disaster and the Cons are to busy with internal strife to see it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2022)

I feel the CPC mafia gets in the way of CPC members voting in who they want.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Canada is almost at 90% Debt to GDP ratio.


True, but a lot of other countries have higher, Spain, Italy, France, the UK, USA, Japan. 


Halifax Tar said:


> And our economy grew by .20 of a percent.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-gdp-1.6368400#:~:text=Business-,Canada's%20economy%20was%20growing%20at%206.7%25%20pace%20at%20the%20end,official%20data%20showed%20on%20Tuesday.
		


"Canada's economy grew 6.7 per cent in the fourth quarter on an annualized basis, beating analyst expectations of 6.5 per cent, while January GDP most likely rose 0.2 per cent after stagnating in December, Statistics Canada data showed."


Halifax Tar said:


> The country will do what it wants but we're in no fiscal position to take on luxury services like dental and pharma without out raising taxes.
> 
> I would hate to the gov that has to try and come after these bafoons and clean this up.  They will be highly unpopular.


Stephen Harper spent a boatload of money during the financial crisis of 2008-2009, and getting the economy back on track. 

He didn't raise taxes. Neither did Justin Trudeau. I don't know why they are going to start now. We have been hearing this for over a decade, the "Oh, taxes are going to rise due to the debt and deficit". Have yet to see it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

Taxes don't have to rise.  A government can borrow until lenders stop lending; then it can pretend to borrow.  The consequences are hard on people, but...taxes don't have to rise.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> True, but a lot of other countries have higher, Spain, Italy, France, the UK, USA, Japan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm on my phone so I cant use all the cool dodads to make this reply nicer. 

I don't care what other countries do.  Not my problem.  I am concerned about my country and its future both fiscal and otherwise. 

Fair on the GFP growth I looked for that stat again and couldn't find it. 

I'm glad no one raised taxes, let's not start now.  See were in agreement. Didn't Harper cut taxes by a percentage or something ?


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Taxes don't have to rise.  A government can borrow until lenders stop lending; then it can pretend to borrow.  The consequences are hard on people, but...taxes don't have to rise.


Greece still gets money lent to it. So does Argentina. Lenders will continue to lend, even if you're a fiscal basket case. It's just going to cost more to borrow. 

But you're right, taxes do not need to rise. What would happen, should happen is slowing the rate of government spending down below the rate the economy is growing. Doing that consistently would bring the debt to GDP levels down, even while continuing to run deficits. Harper did it, Trudeau was doing it. 

Will they do it in the future? Remains to be seen.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm on my phone so I cant use all the cool dodads to make this reply nicer.


Yeah, I run into that as well. 


Halifax Tar said:


> I don't care what other countries do.  Not my problem.  I am concerned about my country and its future both fiscal and otherwise.


It's not our problem, but one can use them as a point of comparison. Is it true that canadas debt to GDP is rising? Yes. Is it manageable? Compared to our peers, yes it is. 


Halifax Tar said:


> Fair on the GDP growth I looked for that stat again and couldn't find it.


January was slow, but the last quarter the economy was red hot. I don't think that the Canadian economy can run at +4 percent growth every year, but if the expenditures can be kept in the 2.5-3 percent growth range and the economy can outperform 3 percent growth a year, then we are on the right track. 


Halifax Tar said:


> I'm glad no one raised taxes, let's not start now.  See were in agreement. Didn't Harper cut taxes by a percentage or something ?


It wont start now. There used to be a time when politicians would raise taxes. Now they slow spending or just add to the deficit, they are not raising taxes. For all the bluster from one side about a tax and spend LPC, or even LPC/NDP, the LPC have not raised taxes. Not the GST, not personal income tax (they raised it for high income earners and lowered it for "middle class" as a campaign promise but not any more than that), not corporate taxes. 

Now it can be fairly argued that we are spending more on debt servicing, and the like, but this raising taxes thing hasn't happened for quite a while. 

And Harper did lower the GST. Trudeau hasn't touched it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

We raise taxes every year in which we borrow (which essentially is future taxation).  Yes, some of the liability can be paid out of other revenues.  But mostly, taxes.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> We raise taxes every year in which we borrow (which essentially is future taxation).  Yes, some of the liability can be paid out of other revenues.  But mostly, taxes.


This is untrue. Debt to GDP dropped under Harper post 2011. He didn't raise taxes.

Debt to GDP dropped under Trudeau, before covid. He didn't raise taxes.

As the debt gets smaller in comparison to the size of the economy, the easier it is to service and pay down, without raising taxes.

Quebec has been paying down its debt, they didn't raise taxes.

Alberta is paying down its debt, they didn't raise taxes.

This debt today, higher taxes tomorrow thing is a fallacy.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

I didn't write about debt.  I wrote about borrowing.   I suppose a government could stop taxing entirely and do nothing but borrow and pretend it's not taxing...for a few years.

Future tax rates could be higher or lower, depending on other expenditures.


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I didn't write about debt.  I wrote about borrowing.   I suppose a government could stop taxing entirely and do nothing but borrow and pretend it's not taxing...for a few years.
> 
> Future tax rates could be higher or lower, depending on other expenditures.





Brad Sallows said:


> We raise taxes every year in which we borrow (which essentially is future taxation).  Yes, some of the liability can be paid out of other revenues.  But mostly, taxes.


You have a weird definition of raising taxes, but I'll allow it.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Mar 2022)

If we had no debt and took on no debt, we'd not pay to service debt, and certainly would not have to borrow to service it.  Instead that money would be available for other spending, or tax (or other revenue) cuts.  But someone in the past borrowed, and we service the debt rather than default (which would effectively just amount to a one-time tax of the default amount on all the debt holders).  Some years we pay current taxes to service debt, and some years we borrow.  In the end, it's all higher taxes imposed by people in our past, who effectively limited our fiscal freedom of manouevre in our present.  We should stop doing the same to future taxpayers.  That we are "investing" is bullsh!t; very little public spending is "investment".


----------



## Altair (23 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If we had no debt and took on no debt, we'd not pay to service debt, and certainly would not have to borrow to service it.  Instead that money would be available for other spending, or tax (or other revenue) cuts.  But someone in the past borrowed, and we service the debt rather than default (which would effectively just amount to a one-time tax of the default amount on all the debt holders).  Some years we pay current taxes to service debt, and some years we borrow.  In the end, it's all higher taxes imposed by people in our past, who effectively limited our fiscal freedom of manouevre in our present.  We should stop doing the same to future taxpayers.  That we are "investing" is bullsh!t; very little public spending is "investment".


This would be true if taxes were lowered when not being spent on debt servicing. As it stands, it usually isn't. So the taxes paid at tax time is going to be the same, the only difference being the amount of services one gets out of their taxes paid. 

At the end of the day, politicians have not been raising taxes recently. It's a shell game to some extent, I would agree with that, but come tax time the rates are not being increased which is what people care about.


----------



## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2022)

Looks like Trudeau's speech in the EU wasn't well attended and definitely met with push back. 









						Prime Minister Trudeau called ‘dictator’ to his face in blistering speech in European Parliament
					

It wasn’t the response Prime Minister Trudeau was hoping for.  In fact in a career filled with humiliations on various international trips, Wednesday’s speech at the EU in Brussels has …




					www.todayville.com


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Looks like Trudeau's speech in the EU wasn't well attended and definitely met with push back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This guy?


> In January 2022, Kolakušić addressed French President Emmanuel Macron during a legislative session, arguing that vaccination must remain a choice, and compared vaccine mandates with capital punishment, claiming that tens of thousands had died from it citing data from the European Medicines Agency. The European Medicines Agency said in a response that the cited data was a public, self-reported database of suspected side effects which did not report deaths and would require further scientific investigation to find any causal link between the reports and the COVID-19 vaccine.


I would imagine individual members of the European parliament who equate vaccine mandates to capital pubishment would be backers of the freedom convoy.


----------



## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> This guy?
> 
> I would imagine individual members of the European parliament who equate vaccine mandates to capital pubishment would be backers of the freedom convoy.



So yes it met with push back ?


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So yes it met with push back ?


Yes.

This guy









						Fact Check-Claim of tens of thousands of vaccine-related EU deaths is based on a misreading of data
					

A Croatian politician’s claim that tens of thousands of Europeans have died as a result of COVID-19 vaccines is based on a misreading of data, the drugs regulator of the European Union has told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com
				






> A Croatian politician’s claim that tens of thousands of Europeans have died as a result of COVID-19 vaccines is based on a misreading of data, the drugs regulator of the European Union has told Reuters.
> 
> Mislav Kolakušić, a member of the European Parliament (MEP), told the parliament’s session on Jan. 21 that he believed vaccination should remain a choice for EU citizens and compared mandates to capital punishment and murder.
> 
> ...


Seems he makes a habit of pushing back against foreign leaders talking to the European Parliament.

Lets see who else.

Christine Anderson. German MEP. What party? Far right ADF party. Oh, so a PPC type party. No surprise there.

Who else?Christian Terhes. From one of the main parties in Romania, okay.

So 3 out of 705 members.

Yes, a lot of pushback.


----------



## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2022)

There is also this...









						Majority of seats empty during Trudeau’s speech to European Parliament
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau had trouble filling out the seats of European Parliament during his speech.




					thepostmillennial.com


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> There is also this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Entirely fair point.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Looks like Trudeau's speech in the EU wasn't well attended and definitely met with push back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lots of clapping at the end of that callout.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> This would be true if taxes were lowered when not being spent on debt servicing. As it stands, it usually isn't. So the taxes paid at tax time is going to be the same, the only difference being the amount of services one gets out of their taxes paid.
> 
> At the end of the day, politicians have not been raising taxes recently. It's a shell game to some extent, I would agree with that, but come tax time the rates are not being increased which is what people care about.


What are you talking about, taxes have been going up steadily since Trudeau took power, its called Carbon Tax. Just because they haven't raised the GST or HST, doesn't mean they aren't increasing taxes in other ways. 

Our country needs a wake up and to get its finances in control both on many provincial and federal budgets. Stupid things like tax cuts at the moment (looking at you Ford with your licence plate registration fee being cut) hurt our childrens future when we can't even balance a budget let alone create a surplus. We need to start paying down our debt, especially before the interest rates go up and we need to take out more debt to service our debt. 

Adding more services to a system which already isn't paying for what services it is receiving isn't logical. The only way to pay for it is to increase taxes somewhere or to make cuts somewhere. Seeing as this government is insistent in expanding not limiting the expenditures, I know which one will be required in the future.


----------



## QV (24 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> What are you talking about, taxes have been going up steadily since Trudeau took power, its called Carbon Tax. Just because they haven't raised the GST or HST, doesn't mean they aren't increasing taxes in other ways.
> 
> Our country needs a wake up and to get its finances in control both on many provincial and federal budgets. Stupid things like tax cuts at the moment (looking at you Ford with your licence plate registration fee being cut) hurt our childrens future when we can't even balance a budget let alone create a surplus. We need to start paying down our debt, especially before the interest rates go up and we need to take out more debt to service our debt.
> 
> Adding more services to a system which already isn't paying for what services it is receiving isn't logical. The only way to pay for it is to increase taxes somewhere or to make cuts somewhere. Seeing as this government is insistent in expanding not limiting the expenditures, I know which one will be required in the future.


Now now... he said the carbon tax would put more money in everyone's pockets. The higher the carbon tax the more money for everyone!


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> What are you talking about, taxes have been going up steadily since Trudeau took power, its called Carbon Tax. Just because they haven't raised the GST or HST, doesn't mean they aren't increasing taxes in other ways.


The federal one pays it back to people, so I'm not counting it. I personally get back more than I spend and this will be more so once I get my electric car this year or next.


Eaglelord17 said:


> Our country needs a wake up and to get its finances in control both on many provincial and federal budgets. Stupid things like tax cuts at the moment (looking at you Ford with your licence plate registration fee being cut) hurt our childrens future when we can't even balance a budget let alone create a surplus. We need to start paying down our debt, especially before the interest rates go up and we need to take out more debt to service our debt.
> 
> Adding more services to a system which already isn't paying for what services it is receiving isn't logical. The only way to pay for it is to increase taxes somewhere or to make cuts somewhere. Seeing as this government is insistent in expanding not limiting the expenditures, I know which one will be required in the future.


Except this isnt what Harper or Trudeau have done. Neither of them raised taxes or cut services, did they?


----------



## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> The federal one pays it back to people, so I'm not counting it. I personally get back more than I spend and this will be more so once I get my electric car this year or next.
> 
> Except this isnt what Harper or Trudeau have done. Neither of them raised taxes or cut services, did they?



When am I supposed to see a return on the carbon tax thing ?


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Mar 2022)

Harper's government cut a whole bunch of tiny sh!t to bring down spending.  (Trudeau's government restored much of it.)

Pennies add up.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> When am I supposed to see a return on the carbon tax thing ?


If youre in a province that doesnt have a provincial one, tax time.

I get one every year.


----------



## Remius (24 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Harper's government cut a whole bunch of tiny sh!t to bring down spending.  (Trudeau's government restored much of it.)
> 
> Pennies add up.


Harper’s gvt also effed a lot of that stuff up and wound up costing us more in some cases.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Harper's government cut a whole bunch of tiny sh!t to bring down spending.  (Trudeau's government restored much of it.)
> 
> Pennies add up.


Yet did taxes get raised?

Again, twice in 11 years the government has spent an insane amount of money in response to a crisis, and taxes did not go up either time.

Yet the higher taxes bogeyman gets dragged out time after time


----------



## Eaglelord17 (24 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Yet did taxes get raised?
> 
> Again, twice in 11 years the government has spent an insane amount of money in response to a crisis, and taxes did not go up either time.
> 
> Yet the higher taxes bogeyman gets dragged out time after time


At some point someone has to pay for it all. Usually the cost isn't worth the return. The amount we have spent during this pandemic is staggering, basically doubling our national debt which took over 40 years to create in two years. That isn't sustainable. 

A simple example being before Trudeau embarked on all this spending for the Pandemic, our deficit was 35 billion. Our interest payments were about 35 billion. Therefore if we didn't have that debt in the first place we wouldn't have had a deficit and been increasing our debt. We are selling our future for the present and it isn't even buying that much.

All parties need to get a grip on this not just the Liberals.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Mar 2022)

Whether or not taxes have to go up is situational.  Here are a couple of scenarios:

1. You're running a surplus and there's a temporary pinch of revenues coupled with a need for extraordinary spending.  You allow the temporary condition to pass and use the resumption of surpluses to cover the excess spending, without cutting transfers or raising taxes.

2. You just say "f*ck it", and spend with the hope that nothing will blow out the deficit, because nothing bad has happened so far.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Whether or not taxes have to go up is situational.  Here are a couple of scenarios:
> 
> 1. You're running a surplus and there's a temporary pinch of revenues coupled with a need for extraordinary spending.  You allow the temporary condition to pass and use the resumption of surpluses to cover the excess spending, without cutting transfers or raising taxes.
> 
> 2. You just say "f*ck it", and spend with the hope that nothing will blow out the deficit, because nothing bad has happened so far.


And Canada tends to work in between these two points.

Keep deficits manageable and within line of economic growth.

Its not a surplus sure, but as a percentage of the budget and the economy, 35-40 billion isnt much.

The three things that change this equation are a worse credit rating, and rising interest rates on borrowing and an economic downturn.. The first isnt a big risk, the second might be, and who knows about the third?

That all said, welcome to the west. Its what G7 countries do. The USA has a massive debt. Europe does as well. You need to go to really shitty places like Russia or China to find a government with really low debt loads. I think one of the few exceptions to this is Norway, and thats due to lots a oil and gas revenue with a tiny population.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> At some point someone has to pay for it all. Usually the cost isn't worth the return. The amount we have spent during this pandemic is staggering, basically doubling our national debt which took over 40 years to create in two years. That isn't sustainable.
> 
> A simple example being before Trudeau embarked on all this spending for the Pandemic, our deficit was 35 billion. Our interest payments were about 35 billion. Therefore if we didn't have that debt in the first place we wouldn't have had a deficit and been increasing our debt. We are selling our future for the present and it isn't even buying that much.
> 
> All parties need to get a grip on this not just the Liberals.


Its not the parties. 

Its what Canadians want.

They are voting for the NDP and LPC knowing full well what spending they want.

The CPC also gave up being fiscally conservative last election. Until canadians prioritize paying down the debt, political parties will continue to push the envelope. 

Its likely due to seeing all that spending and no obvious repercussions. Harper spent hundreds of billions, no higher taxes. A few marginal servoce cuts to bring in a balanced budget which allowed Trudeau to come in and say he was willing to defecit spend and suddenly Harper was out and Trudeau was in. Trudeau has not posted a surplus, but again, no higher taxes. 

Back when deficits obvious repercussions Canadians seem to have payed more attention to it. How often does the debt/deficit make this list as Canadians top priorities?


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Mar 2022)

> 35-40 billion isnt much.



Imagine how much health care could be delivered with that money.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Imagine how much health care could be delivered with that money.


When Canadians want a government that will address the deficit and debt they will elect one.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Mar 2022)

Yeah.  I always prefer the kind of government elected when people are in a panic.  No fun electing moderates who will deal with a problem while it is small.


----------



## Altair (24 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yeah.  I always prefer the kind of government elected when people are in a panic.  No fun electing moderates who will deal with a problem while it is small.


Democracy for ya.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Its not the parties.
> 
> Its what Canadians want.
> 
> ...


And Canadians aren’t exceptionally responsible. We shall all pay for it in the future, selling our children out for our excesses today.

Also 35 billion is a lot of money, it is 1000$ from every Canadian. The fact you don’t see it as such shows how blind many Canadians are to the debt crisis we are in and how much worse its going to get before it gets better.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> And Canadians aren’t exceptionally responsible. We shall all pay for it in the future, selling our children out for our excesses today.
> 
> Also 35 billion is a lot of money, it is 1000$ from every Canadian. The fact you don’t see it as such shows how blind many Canadians are to the debt crisis we are in and how much worse its going to get before it gets better.


If you say so.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> If you say so.


Really?,  So what does that response add to this conversation??


----------



## ArmyRick (25 Mar 2022)

How many of you commenting about how "ok" debt is actually own a business? Or like me, an essential business (I grow FOOD and with all of Clueless Trudeau's economic failings, war against oil-gas and carbon tax, its f-ing ridicolous trying to balance our books)

THINK. beyond your own little worlds. We can NOT keep going into debt. Basic law of finances . End story.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Really?,  So what does that response add to this conversation??


I was ending this particular conversation.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

> We shall all pay for it in the future



We're paying for it now.  Until the most recent spate of deficits, most of the federal debt was based on deficit spending that occurred for roughly a decade from mid-70s to mid-80s.  The sum of the operating deficits (actual spending) for that period has since been dwarfed by the accumulated cost of interest.  A bit like buying a car priced at $20,000 and paying $200,000 for the financing when all is done, but the actual numbers are larger.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

More in the carbon tax from the PBO









						'There is going to be a cost': Federal carbon pricing to generate 'net loss' for most households, PBO finds
					

As the pricing increases, lower income households should continue to receive rebates, but middle- and upper-class households should be expecting to pay…




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

Not half as amusing as the article to protect QC's number of seats during next redistribution.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Not half as amusing as the article about the bill to protect QC's number of seats during next redistribution.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Liberals table bill to protect number of Quebec seats in Parliament, a condition of deal with NDP
					

Because Quebec's population has declined, it stood to lose an MP in the upcoming redistribution of seats, while provinces with growing populations would gain…




					nationalpost.com
				




Quebec just played itself. 

They get to keep their 78 MPs but other provinces will get MORE MPs to make up for it, which still ends up with Quebec losing power.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Liberals table bill to protect number of Quebec seats in Parliament, a condition of deal with NDP
> 
> 
> Because Quebec's population has declined, it stood to lose an MP in the upcoming redistribution of seats, while provinces with growing populations would gain…
> ...


Only the taxpayer gets played with more seats....


----------



## brihard (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Not half as amusing as the article to protect QC's number of seats during next redistribution.



Meh. PEI managed to lock in four seats in each of the House and the Senate as part of the deal to join confederation, so saving one seat in Quebec isn’t a very big deal.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Only the taxpayer gets played with more seats....


Taxpayers get played, yes. But only Quebec here played itself. 

Unless you are suggesting that taxpayers played themselves by voting in MPs in the first place.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Mar 2022)

PE did it a long time ago.  QC is doing it today.  Public perception may differ across time.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> PE did it a long time ago.  QC is doing it today.  Public perception may differ across time.


I think QC wanted something even more insidious than the PEI treatment. Just permanent overrepresentation in the HoC. That they are getting it dialed back to the PEI treatment has to be considered a loss for them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

This region before country garbage is going to tare us apart.


----------



## Altair (25 Mar 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> This region before country garbage is going to tare us apart.


Not every country lasts forever, not every empire, not every city.

See Yugoslavia, Roman Empire, and Carthage.

But as the optimist who jumped off a building said when asked how it was going, All _right so far_


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> Not every country lasts forever, not every empire, not every city.
> 
> See Yugoslavia, Roman Empire, and Carthage.
> 
> But as the optimist who jumped off a building said when asked how it was going, All _right so far_



Were rowing in the same direction


----------



## Altair (28 Mar 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-10-dollar-child-care-deal-1.6397643
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-10-dollar-child-care-deal-1.6397643
Yay Ontario!

Funny how they came to an agreement just before funding was set to lapse.

And after holding out saying 10.2b over 5 years was not enough they got 10.2 billion over 4 years...by wasting this year.

But better lat than never, and we officially have a national universal childcare system in place.

Next up, dental and pharma.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Mar 2022)

This is going to tilt everything if is unrolls anything like this (which I for now assume is the most provocative prediction):

"Veronica Clark, an economist at Citigroup Global Markets Inc., changed her forecast, and now predicts half-point increases in April, June and July, followed by a series of quarter-point lifts that leave the benchmark rate at 2.75 per cent at the end of the year, compared with 0.5 per cent currently."


----------



## Altair (28 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> This is going to tilt everything if is unrolls anything like this (which I for now assume is the most provocative prediction):
> 
> "Veronica Clark, an economist at Citigroup Global Markets Inc., changed her forecast, and now predicts half-point increases in April, June and July, followed by a series of quarter-point lifts that leave the benchmark rate at 2.75 per cent at the end of the year, compared with 0.5 per cent currently."


Hope that helps to tackle inflation a bit, but I doubt it.


----------



## Lumber (28 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> This is going to tilt everything if is unrolls anything like this (which I for now assume is the most provocative prediction):
> 
> "Veronica Clark, an economist at Citigroup Global Markets Inc., changed her forecast, and now predicts half-point increases in April, June and July, followed by a series of quarter-point lifts that leave the benchmark rate at 2.75 per cent at the end of the year, compared with 0.5 per cent currently."


Hurray for variable rate mortgage!... f***...


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Mar 2022)

Sorry to brag, but looks like I timed paying off my mortgage just right.


----------



## Remius (28 Mar 2022)

ModlrMike said:


> Sorry to brag, but looks like I timed paying off my mortgage just right.


Same. I’m in a locked in one and won’t have to renew in this climate.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Mar 2022)

> Hurray for variable rate mortgage!... f***...



If I still had one, I'd be inclined to hang in since I think it still more likely than not that this situation is temporary.  But I could see locking in if that provision were available and the term only had a couple of years to run.


----------



## Altair (29 Mar 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508821711738839044
Darn those nutters.


----------



## Navy_Pete (29 Mar 2022)

Citizens of countries with actual dictators have entered the chat...

A lot of Canadians are sheltered AF; traveling the world to the less visited places was really eye opening. Even under the full EA act still a ways to go until we're remotely close to any real dictatorship, and we have things like a functional Supreme Court and other legitimate checks and balances.

Dictators, by definition, have none of that, and aren't confined by the rule of law. This kind of ridiculous hyperbole continues to undermine real, meaningful discussions about important things like why the EA was enacted. It seems there was a gap to get police operating in other jurisdictions which this bridged, but probably some other things they did under there which weren't necessary. But if people keep throwing around 'Nazi' and 'Dictator' accusations everywhere we don't get anything other than pithy video clips they can post on twitter.

If the MPs are just going to be tictok content producers, we can probably eliminate about 3/4 of them and save a billion a year.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Mar 2022)

To that can be added "authoritarianism".  Real "authoritarianism" is when the "authority" has compliant legislatures, courts, press and media, etc.


----------



## Altair (29 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> To that can be added "authoritarianism".  Real "authoritarianism" is when the "authority" has compliant legislatures, courts, press and media, etc.


I just find it funny how a Prime minister dealing with a minority parliament can be considered a dictator or authoritarian.


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Mar 2022)

"Authoritarian" usually just means the speaker/writer disagrees with policy.


----------



## Altair (29 Mar 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> "Authoritarian" usually just means the speaker/writer disagrees with policy.


Ah. 

Hyperbole. 

Productive.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508821711738839044
> Darn those nutters.



Such trite. 

No wonder Canadians are apathetic towards our political class.


----------



## ModlrMike (30 Mar 2022)

Does anyone think the tone would be different if the shoe were on the other foot?


----------



## RangerRay (30 Mar 2022)

I am happy to see Trudeau broke two promises…electoral reform and purchasing F-35’s!


----------



## OceanBonfire (30 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508821711738839044
> Darn those nutters.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508970070936113154


----------



## Altair (30 Mar 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1508970070936113154


I mean, that's the....reasonable take on the situation. 

I'm pretty sure that MP of that party is not being reasonable.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Mar 2022)

Altair said:


> I mean, that's the....reasonable take on the situation.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that MP of that party is not being reasonable.



She's not and instead of working for Canadians and holding the governments feet to the fire she clamoring for likes and sounds bite gotcha moments.  

As my Irish Gran would say she's an eejit.


----------



## ueo (31 Mar 2022)

brihard said:


> Insurance companies will insure anything if it can be made profitable. They’ll need good data first, but once it exists they’ll price it in and go for it. Might be that we’ll see automated trucks do the technologically easier driving over long distance between major logistical hubs, with humans taking shorter distance local stuff.


Ummm, isn't the most economical method of long distance land cartage rail? Agree with your local solution tho'.


----------



## brihard (31 Mar 2022)

ueo said:


> Ummm, isn't the most economical method of long distance land cartage rail? Agree with your local solution tho'.


Maybe? Dunno. It simply has to be profitable enough for insurance companies to insure, is the only point I was making. That will factor into the relative costs of means of transport. I’m not making any claim about which is/will be the best option for a given setting.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Mar 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I feel the CPC mafia gets in the way of CPC members voting in who they want.


If it happens in other parties, it can happen there, for sure - from national to riding levels.

Some of the "getting who "_we_" want" magic is played out in how the leader's selected.  Remember last time how one candidate had the highest number of popular votes at one point, but not votes in the heavier-weighted areas?  That sort of thing can cause party faithful of any team jersey to shake their heads.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Mar 2022)

The definition of "dictator" is malleable, like "authoritarian".  Both were very popular in political discourse recently.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Mar 2022)

On April 1st the carbon tax goes up, you're welcome 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Oh and MPs are getting a raise


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Apr 2022)

At CBC: "The 2022-23 deficit projection is $52.8 billion — half of what it was last year"​Jesus H Christ on a crutch in a sidecar.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Apr 2022)

Another wonderful find (again from a CBC article):

"The main part of what the government is calling a "Canada Recovery Dividend" consists of a one-time tax of 15 per cent on their profits over $1 billion, for the 2021 tax year. That move is expected to bring in about $4 billion."

Which, in all likelihood, will actually be paid by employees (current inflation being what it is, it would be nice to allow institutions to consider plowing the "excess profits" into raises) and shareholders (including pension funds).


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Apr 2022)

It will actually be paid by customers. 5 cents here, 10 cents there in fees, and it's quickly recovered.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Apr 2022)

Hey look, Singh is back with his classic _"I'm going to support Trudeau but I don't agree with him!" _mantra.



			NDP will support budget but leader Jagmeet Singh says Liberals are 'doing things that we don't agree with'


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Apr 2022)

Won't change the colour of his nose or the kind of hairs it's knitted to.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (8 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Hey look, Singh is back with his classic _"I'm going to support Trudeau but I don't agree with him!" _mantra.
> 
> 
> 
> NDP will support budget but leader Jagmeet Singh says Liberals are 'doing things that we don't agree with'


Funny thing about getting into bed with a Trudeau... you usually end up being handed a roll of quarters afterward and told your taxi is waiting outside. Talk to most Albertans.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Apr 2022)

I never read the new budget. With 10ish grand of now-illegal firearms can someone tell me how many dollars are allocated to the Liberal gun buy back program in this new budget?


----------



## Remius (8 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I never read the new budget. With 10ish grand of now-illegal firearms can someone tell me how many dollars are allocated to the Liberal gun buy back program in this new budget?


500 million.  It’s in the line item for sending more lethal aid to Ukraine.  Buy the guns, send the guns to Ukraine.  Two birds one stone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Apr 2022)

Ah yes, the _Qualified Canadian Journalism License._

Panel of 5 people in secret decides who gets this media license, what could go wrong with that? The Liberals do like their secrets.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (19 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ah yes, the _Qualified Canadian Journalism License._
> 
> Panel of 5 people in secret decides who gets this media license, what could go wrong with that? The Liberals do like their secrets.



I don't know if you're employing satire or sarcasm in your comment, or if you're being serious.  Specifically, your use of "_License"_.  What is this license you speak of?  (_That's sarcasm.  Or is it satire?  I suppose it would be ironic if it was neither._)  The actual term in the Income Tax Act is "qualified Canadian journalism organization" (not license).

The efficacy (or necessity) of the government's measures to support Canadian journalism is open to debate, but the use of one echo chamber from south of the border to support the claims of a homegrown echo chamber somewhat . . .  (hell, totally) . . . undermines the argument.  There are probably a few among the 165 (+/- ?) publications that have already sought and been determined by CRA to meet the criteria of the Income Tax Act and who regularly publish comment critical of the government generally and the PM personally.

Rebel News can bleat on about censorship or bias and enlist Fox News in its campaign, but during a quick look at the "guidance on the income tax measures to support journalism" the following stood out to me.  Honestly, does that news organization in question actually follow such practices?






						Guidance on the income tax measures to support journalism - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca
				





> 2.36. Original news content should be based on journalistic processes and principles, which include:
> 
> a. a commitment to researching and verifying information before publication;
> b. a consistent practice of providing rebuttal opportunity for those being criticized and presenting alternate perspectives, interpretations and analyses;
> ...



I may be a bit prejudiced in my opinion of Rebel News, so in fairness (and with a slight taste of bile resulting from visiting their site) I've provided a link to the letter from CRA denying their application and their application for judicial review filed with the Federal Court of Canada which they included in their inevitable piece about why they are "suing Trudeau" (who isn't actually named in the suit).


And in an example of semi-related irony.  This screen grab from an FP page (you'll find a number of FP's pubs on the list of those eligible for the tax credit) in which they publish an opinion criticizing the government's measures, but in the upper right corner (I've circled it in yellow) their link to the receipt for those who wish to claim the tax credit.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Apr 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> I don't know if you're employing satire or sarcasm in your comment, or if you're being serious.  Specifically, your use of "_License"_.  What is this license you speak of?  (_That's sarcasm.  Or is it satire?  I suppose it would be ironic if it was neither._)  The actual term in the Income Tax Act is "qualified Canadian journalism organization" (not license).


Happy to explain what I meant.

The Liberal government appears to be bringing in a system where they decide who constitutes as an acceptable member of the Qualified Canadian Journalism Organization (QCJO).  The Liberal government apparently claim that only 1% of what Rebel media reports is news, for example, so refused to give Rebel news approval as an official media outlet. Regardless of anyone's views of them as a media outlet suggesting they only produce 1% actual news is silly.

We've all seen what the LPC thinks about Canadians who don't share their views and opinions.

It doesn't bode well for Canadians, _especially_ with this government, to have any government control who gets credentials as journalists with the context of being able to keep them out of events.


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Happy to explain what I meant.
> 
> The Liberal government appears to be bringing in a system where they decide who constitutes as an acceptable member of the Qualified Canadian Journalism Organization (QCJO).  The Liberal government apparently claim that only 1% of what Rebel media reports is news, for example, so refused to give Rebel news approval as an official media outlet. Regardless of anyone's views of them as a media outlet suggesting they only produce 1% actual news is silly.
> 
> ...



IIRC that there is no 'American-like' freedom of speech in Canada.

Remember, we were the people that inspred their Declaration of Independence


----------



## Eaglelord17 (23 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> IIRC that there is no 'American-like' freedom of speech in Canada.
> 
> Remember, we were the people that inspred their Declaration of Independence


There should be a more absolute version in Canada. ‘Freedom of thought, opinion, and expression’ is much more encompassing than simple ‘Freedom of speech’.


----------



## YZT580 (23 Apr 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> There should be a more absolute version in Canada. ‘Freedom of thought, opinion, and expression’ is much more encompassing than simple ‘Freedom of speech’.


in Canada you are allowed complete freedom of thought,  opinion, and epression provided it those thoughts are the same as Justin's.  Those who disagree, whilst free to think as they would, need not apply and will be ridiculed for voicing dissent.


----------



## ModlrMike (23 Apr 2022)

People confuse freedom of speech with freedom from consequence. That's why we have libel laws for example.


----------



## brihard (23 Apr 2022)

YZT580 said:


> in Canada you are allowed complete freedom of thought,  opinion, and epression provided it those thoughts are the same as Justin's.  Those who disagree, whilst free to think as they would, need not apply and will be ridiculed for voicing dissent.


There is no freedom from ridicule. The concept of freedom of expression governs your relationship with the state. If means you can drive around with a tacky “fuck Trudeau” bumper sticker and you can’t get a ticket for it. It doesn’t mean your neighbour can’t laugh at you for your views,  or that you may be subject to public acorn and disdain. Others may choose to exercise their freedom of association and not have anything to do with you.

The reality is people say all kinds of things about our government and our PM all the time with zero consequence whatsoever. It’s silly to think anyone in Canada is actually experiencing repression for expressing views against our government, and that goes for whichever party is in power.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Apr 2022)

...And hate speech laws. And things like you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre...

Absolute freedom is a myth and there are always consequences.

It is pretty funny though that people that go on about 'woke snowflakes' take such exception for people thinking they're dumbasses for their opinions or think they are dickheads for taking over downtown Ottawa, crapping on the streets and honking continously for week, and think that equates to real government oppression. Similarly they act surprised that threatening to overthrow the democratically elected government may lead to getting investigated, and arrests for weapon stockpiles.

Can't wrap my head around the kind of doublethink where that's somehow on the same scale as governments putting people in re-education camps by the thousands, disappearing protestors, and throwing opposition leaders in jail on trumped up charges. What happened to Navalny is really nothing like Lich and co, who repeteadly ignored court orders, etc after being given a lot of leeway on things that went far beyond normal democratic protest norms.


----------



## brihard (23 Apr 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> ...And hate speech laws.


Even this concept. We so barely have any. There are two criminal code sections, one against advocating genocide, and one against _wilful incitement_ of hatred. Simply communicating your own hate speech, no matter how awful, won’t cut it.

There may be complaints under provincial human rights statutes if your behaviour has a discriminatory effect, but even that has little real teeth most of the time.


----------



## Navy_Pete (23 Apr 2022)

I think sometimes hate speech consequences are a little more immediate when people get punched in the face, but people seem a lot less outspoken that way unless they outnumber or otherwise stronger than whoever they are attacking. Pretty cowardly.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Apr 2022)

brihard said:


> The reality is people say all kinds of things about our government and our PM all the time with zero consequence whatsoever. It’s silly to think anyone in Canada is actually experiencing repression for expressing views against our government, and that goes for whichever party is in power.


Luckily the courts seem to agree. 

Federal Court grants Rebel News access to cover debates​


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Apr 2022)

> public acorn and disdain



Ah, to be publicly acorned.  Let he who is without sin cast the first acorn...


----------



## brihard (23 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Ah, to be publicly acorned.  Let he who is without sin cast the first acorn...


Listen, have you ever had acorns pelted at you in large numbers for your misdeeds? Don’t knock it as a form of censure.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Happy to explain what I meant.
> 
> The Liberal government appears to be bringing in a system where they decide who constitutes as an acceptable member of the Qualified Canadian Journalism Organization (QCJO) to qualify for subsidies.  The Liberal government apparently claim that only 1% of what Rebel media reports is news, for example, so refused to give Rebel news approval as an official media outlet to qualify for subsidies ...


FTFY - although if I were completely fair, I'd also note that a reasonably left-of-centre critic of the current government media policy agrees in general with "WTF's with gov't deciding who's a media outlet?"








						#768 "We Are Not The Journalism Police" – An Interview With The Journalism Police
					

Canada is two years into its news media bailout. Transparency was promised, instead we got secrecy.




					www.canadaland.com
				





Jarnhamar said:


> It doesn't bode well for Canadians, _especially_ with this government, to have any government control who gets credentials as journalists with the context of being able to keep them out of events.


Happens with_ all _colours of team jerseys who want to manage the narrative, sadly 








						Tories end gag order on people who attend Stephen Harper's events
					

The Conservative party has backtracked from a gag order it placed on voters permitted to attend Stephen Harper’s campaign events, but it is sticking to a…




					ottawacitizen.com
				











						Doug Ford scrapping campaign media bus suggests Tories want him out of the hot seat: experts
					

The former Toronto city councillor will not have a media bus following him as he criss-crosses the province ahead of the June election




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2022)

brihard said:


> Listen, have you ever had acorns pelted at you in large numbers for your misdeeds? Don’t knock it as a form of censure.


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Apr 2022)

Interesting podcast from CanadaLand, but I think they are ignoring that it starts as a tax status review through the CRA; having been through those on a non-profit it's incredibly dry, and also why it's confidential (and publishers have to self-identify for that reason). The interviewer is pushing a certain viewpoint, but making it sound like it's a political decision, vice the board doing a true independent review and questioning their integrity.

There are a lot of things that shouldn't be considered for this (entertainment, aggregators, op-ed blogs etc). Doesn't look at quality, just that it's original journalistic content (without having to have any background qualifications).

Honestly seems like much ado about nothing, and there is a process for decision review, but it also sounds like a large amount of work and the IAB is doing an independent, thorough review with a broad criteria. Sure, the big newspapers get some money, but also sounds like it will give small local papers a tax break and make them more feasible. In the climate of 'citizen-journalists' that are mostly bloggers with op-eds, don't think that's a bad thing.

Independent Advisory Board on Eligibility for Journalism Tax Measures - Annual Report 2020-2021 - Canada.ca

If folks don't like it being the GCJO tax status being protected, they should bother their MPs to give this one an exception and have the rules changed.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

Interesting...

Conservatives 36, Liberals 30, NDP 20, Green 6, People’s 3 in latest Nanos federal tracking (Nanos)​


			https://nanos.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/C-Ballot-4-wk.pdf


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 May 2022)

This out a couple of hours ago ...

More from the GoC info-machine here


> ... the government intends to prohibit the inclusion of Huawei and ZTE products and services in Canada’s telecommunications systems.  “This follows a thorough review by our independent security agencies and in consultation with our closest allies.  “As a result, telecommunications companies that operate in Canada would no longer be permitted to make use of designated equipment or services provided by Huawei and ZTE. As well, companies that already use this equipment installed in their networks would be required to cease its use and remove it ...


More in the policy statement


> ... The Government of Canada has serious concerns about suppliers such as Huawei and ZTE who could be compelled to comply with extrajudicial directions from foreign governments in ways that would conflict with Canadian laws or would be detrimental to Canadian interests.
> 
> Canada’s closest allies share the similar concerns about these two suppliers. Given the potential cascading economic and security impacts a telecommunications supply chain breach could cause, allies have taken actions to enable them to prohibit the deployment of Huawei and ZTE products and services in their 5G telecommunications networks.
> Like our allies, Canada believes that evolving international supply chain dynamics have further implications due to growing restrictions on access to certain components. Shifts from well-known inputs to others have implications for Canada’s ability to conduct assurance testing. This changing supply chain environment toward other components will make it increasingly difficult for Canada to maintain a high level of assurance testing for certain network equipment from a number of potential suppliers.
> ...


----------



## rmc_wannabe (19 May 2022)

Honestly, I am surprised it took this long to decide.

 We stand closer and closer to losing our status as a 5 Eyes nation with this kind of political jockeying. China is not a friend to the West and therefore not a friend to Canada. 

To think we can play both sides of the fence and get along swimmingly with our biggest national security partner is lunacy.


----------



## RangerRay (19 May 2022)

The amount of influence the PRC has on our politics, business and academia is truly shocking. The most unreported story of the past 20 years.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 May 2022)

What, we're not allowed to have people over for $5000 a plate dinners?


----------



## Remius (20 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Honestly, I am surprised it took this long to decide.
> 
> We stand closer and closer to losing our status as a 5 Eyes nation with this kind of political jockeying. China is not a friend to the West and therefore not a friend to Canada.
> 
> To think we can play both sides of the fence and get along swimmingly with our biggest national security partner is lunacy.


Pretty sure there were behind the scenes discussions long before this that assured our partners.  This is isn’t a surprise to anyone including the Chinese.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 May 2022)

Because everything is so peaceful these days we can afford to loosen up a bit, right?

Trudeau says Tory ‘tough on crime’ rhetoric only tough on Black, Indigenous Canadians​
A new law proposed by the Liberal government would scrap some mandatory minimum sentences, as incarceration rates among racialized and Indigenous people far exceed the national average. Mike Le Couteur looks at whether the move would tackle systemic racism in the judicial system.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said on Wednesday that policies the Conservatives claimed were “tough on crime” were “really just tough on Black Canadians and Indigenous Canadians.”





He made the comment during a heated exchange in question period that saw Conservatives accuse the Liberals of planning to “make it allowable for criminals to get house arrest” by repealing policies that broadened the use of mandatory minimum sentences.

“He’s going after law-abiding Canadians but going soft on gangsters,” said Conservative MP Shannon Stubbs before asking: “Will he scrap Bill C-5?”
Trudeau said the government is repealing “failed” Conservative policies.

“They claim to be tough on crime but really they’re just tough on Black Canadians and Indigenous people,” Trudeau said before being drowned out by shouts.

“Our criminal justice reform legislation turns the page on failed Conservative party policies,” he repeated afterwards. “What we need is a system that doesn’t target people because of systemic discrimination.”










						Trudeau says Tory ‘tough on crime’ rhetoric only tough on Black, Indigenous Canadians - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Canadian data shows Black and Indigenous Canadians are disproportionately impacted by mandatory minimum sentences, which the former Conservative government expanded.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Eaglelord17 (20 May 2022)

How is it systemic racism if they are guilty of the crimes they are charged with? If they aren’t we need to change the system but if they did commit the crime the punishment is fair.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> How is it systemic racism if they are guilty of the crimes they are charged with? If they aren’t we need to change the system but if they did commit the crime the punishment is fair.



There are various studies... this one doesn't seem to mention anything about 'mandatory minimums' though:


Study: Black citizens "over-represented" in Toronto police arrests, shootings​

TORONTO (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - Black people in Toronto are disproportionately arrested and fatally shot by police, according to a government report released on Monday showing racially charged police violence in Canada’s largest city rivaled that of the United States.

Black people are “grossly over-represented” in police actions, comprising nearly a third of criminal charges despite being about 9% of the city’s population, said the Ontario Human Rights Commission report.

The highly anticipated report comes in the wake of protests around the world, including in Canada, over the U.S. deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and other Black Americans at the hands of police.

“The report’s results are highly disturbing and confirm what Black communities have said for decades: that Black people bear a disproportionate burden of law enforcement,” said Ena Chadha, interim chief commissioner, in a virtual news conference.

Analyzing data from 2013 to 2017, researchers found the lethal police shooting rate of Black people in Toronto was 7.29 per million people each year, compared with an average of 6.99 per million people in the United States.

Any perception that racist behavior in Canada’s police was not as serious as in the United States is wrong, and the report “compels us to stop perpetuating this myth,” Chadha said.

Charges against Black people were more likely to be withdrawn and less likely to result in conviction than those against white people, it said.
“Anti-Black racism remains persistent and is not simply a perception of angry and frustrated activists. It manifests very clearly in pretty much every interaction that a civilian can have with police,” said Anthony Morgan, manager of the Toronto city government’s anti-racism unit.









						Study: Black citizens "over-represented" in Toronto police arrests, shootings
					

Black people in Toronto are disproportionately arrested and fatally shot by police, according to a government report released on Monday showing racially charged police violence in Canada's largest city rivaled that of the United States.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## rmc_wannabe (20 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> There are various studies... this one doesn't seem to mention anything about 'mandatory minimums' though:
> 
> 
> Study: Black citizens "over-represented" in Toronto police arrests, shootings​
> ...


Saw this first hand as a Scarborough kid.

Interactions with the TPS were very different depending on the company I was with and what part of town I was in. The way they handled breaking up a house party was grossly different depending on if it was in West Rouge vice Galloway and Lawrence.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Interactions with the TPS were *very different depending on the company I was with* and what part of town I was in. The way they handled breaking up a house party was grossly different depending on if it was in West Rouge vice Galloway and Lawrence.


Why do you think that is?


----------



## rmc_wannabe (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Why do you think that is?


Because they were Black? Wearing a hat? Had the wrong postal code on their ID? 
You tell me.  I was never hassled wandering around the same neighbourhoods and I was up to the same tricks, I was just a little lacking in the melanin I guess.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Because they were Black? Wearing a hat? Had the wrong postal code on their ID?
> You tell me.  I was never hassled wandering around the same neighbourhoods and I was up to the same tricks, I was just a little lacking in the melanin I guess.


Seems like a straight forward case of racism then. With Caucasians now being the minority in Toronto and the GTA, and TPS being 26% visible minorities (as of 2020) and climbing, it seems like it's only a matter of time before visible minorities in the TPS reach 50%+ and those over-represented numbers dropping.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 May 2022)

> A new law proposed by the Liberal government would scrap some mandatory minimum sentences, as incarceration rates among racialized and Indigenous people far exceed the national average.



That's like dealing with rust on the car by painting over it instead of keeping it parked in a garage.

"Disparate impacts" almost always result from earlier fundamental factors upstream.  Family life and education are two big ones.


----------



## YZT580 (20 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> That's like dealing with rust on the car by painting over it instead of keeping it parked in a garage.
> 
> "Disparate impacts" almost always result from earlier fundamental factors upstream.  Family life and education are two big ones.


especially family life.  Having a secure home environment with parents that you come home to each night makes a big difference.  Latch key kids have always been at a disadvantage and they were more often of African descent (including Jamaica).  Now that more anglos are caught up in the same monetary rat race I suspect that the numbers will begin to balance


----------



## brihard (20 May 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> How is it systemic racism if they are guilty of the crimes they are charged with? If they aren’t we need to change the system but if they did commit the crime the punishment is fair.


“Systemic” racism goes well beyond the immediate individual interaction. It doesn’t mean an individual police officer behaves in a racist manner in their interactions with a racialized individual. 

The concept needs to be understood as being the sum of many small parts. Everything from which communities have more focused patrol and response resources; what types of offences are more likely to see a person detained in custody, or alternatively subjected to more stringent and more easily breached bail conditions; all the way upstream to blatantly racist treatment of certain communities years ago that set entire subsequent generations up for much greater difficulty, resulting in more individuals adopting behaviours that led some of _them_ to commit criminal acts. 

There are entire communities stuck in self perpetuating cycles of violence, abuse, and trauma, in the course of which many individuals end up in conflict with the law. Treatment of our indigenous populations a hundred or more years ago (and obviously continuing much more recently than that) continues to feed cycles of criminality as people struggle with substance abuse, violence within family relationships, etc.

It’s not an attack, or inappropriate, or incorrect to say that in broad generalities there remains systemic racism in Canada. Drilling down to what that looks like is a lot harder, and a lot of it is basically ‘legacy’ of stuff that happened decades ago. But it does still result in very disparate results in the criminal justice world.

One either believes that non-white people are more inherently likely to commit criminal acts, or one does not. If one does not (me, and I hope everyone here), then you have to start looking at why there’s a difference in statistical outcomes, why demographic X is more likely on a per capita basis to be criminally convicted or spend more percentage of their life in prison. There are many small answers that add up to a monstrously complex total picture.

I have no idea what fixing this looks like, but I believe it’s a whole-of-government and all-life-stages problem to solve.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 May 2022)

One weird thing on the Indigenous side is that they are entitled to a 'Gladue report' as part of the sentencing (which is good in theory) that actually looks at all these factors so they can be taken into account by the judge as a mitigating factor, and look at some alternate sentencing/rehabilitation options.

The weird part is that most times no one gets a Gladue report, and everything funnels through a single organization that does some gatekeeping and restricts people that can write the reports (even if they have gotten the prerequisite Gladue writing course from a qualified teacher), so it's an artificially small pool that is way inadequate to keep up with the potential demand. They are also written as stories, vice a background report with recommendations, so a judge may have to wade through 30 pages of prose to get to the actual meat of things. It's really too bad, as that could make a huge difference. Simple things like being able to get a diagnoses for undocumented conditions and get some coping strategies for that, and would directly help prevent future crimes and help with better life choices should be a part of that if we really want to reform people, and that would be a really good way to do it. Unfortunately people got involved and F'd it all up (as per SOP).


----------



## mariomike (20 May 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Saw this first hand as a Scarborough kid.
> 
> Interactions with the TPS were very different depending on the company I was with and what part of town I was in. The way they handled breaking up a house party was grossly different depending on if it was in West Rouge vice Galloway and Lawrence.



Especially after Danzig St.

My impression was that Metro police used to deploy heavily into high crime areas because, "that's where the crime is".

I recall reading Letters to the Editor from readers in low crime areas complaining they were paying for police protection that was going elsewhere.

I also recall reading local news stories that people in high crime areas voted regularly for police pay raises and benefits.  And the police gave them the best service they could.

I recall reading somewhere that our old, and smaller, Metro force made more arrests, issued more "citations / tickets" and did more "carding" than now. While still covering the same 243 sq mile geographic area.

I doubt there is a "nice" way to arrest a dangerous and combative suspect.

The words "To serve and protect" on the side of their cars was more than a motto. It was a promise.

As taxpayers, when did we - the public - feel safer, then or now?

I suspect when the community fails to support its police in their proper and reasonable enforcement efforts, officers may become demoralized and cease proactive enforcement.  ie: "carding" or "Field Interrogation", or whatever it is called now. FIDO.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 May 2022)

If Gladue Reports are worthwhile, then they should be applied to everyone with background problems, not people with background problems who belong to a specific ethnic ground.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> ... Family life and education are two big ones.





YZT580 said:


> especially family life.  Having a secure home environment with parents that you come home to each night makes a big difference ...


And these kind of factors are the hardest to fix quickly (within a typical election cycle?) once they're screwed up among disadvantaged youth (not just minorities), especially with a few critics saying (depending on what's being suggested) that it's not being tough enough on "bad seed".

On Huawei, meanwhile, Terry Glavin nails it ...








						Terry Glavin: There’s no Huawei ‘ban’ until we get it in writing
					

Thursday’s promised amendments to the Telecommunications Act will be tabled in legislation 'in the very short term,' Champagne said. We’ll see




					nationalpost.com
				



This, from the Policy Statement issued this week (archived link), is the key ...


> ... these actions will be subject to consultation ...


🍿


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If Gladue Reports are worthwhile, then they should be applied to everyone with background problems, not people with background problems who belong to a specific ethnic ground.


They're called Presentence Reports for non-Indigenous folks.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 May 2022)

As long as the factors are identical, the name doesn't matter.


----------



## YZT580 (21 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> As long as the factors are identical, the name doesn't matter.


oh but it does.  Applying a different name for different ethnic groups is as much demonstrating bias as utilizing the N word.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2022)

The most transparent government ever.

Also:

* Trudeau government has adopted dozens of secret cabinet orders since coming to power*


> Government refuses to reveal whether any of the orders are related to the convoy protest, COVID or Ukraine
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's government has adopted 72 secret orders-in-council — hidden from Parliament and Canadians — since coming to office, CBC News has learned.
> 
> A review by CBC News of nearly 8,900 orders-in-council (OICs) — or cabinet decrees — adopted by the federal government shows the number of secret or unpublished OICs has been rising since Trudeau came to power in 2015.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/secret-orders-in-council-1.6467450


----------



## rmc_wannabe (1 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The most transparent government ever.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


I imagine this will fizzle out quickly. After all "the Harper Government started it. We just are keeping the practice up."


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The most transparent government ever.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


Brought to you by the bought-and-paid-for media


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

I'd be willing to bet that a bunch will be under the Investment Canada Act - decisions based on security intelligence regarding the permissibility of different foreign companies acquiring Canadian corporations, where national security concerns necessitate a 'no'. This is something we've gotten more conscious of in the past few years.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Jun 2022)

'No more logic': WestJet CEO blasts Feds' vax mandate  - BNN Bloomberg
					

The chief executive officer of WestJet is calling on the Canadian government to drop its vaccine mandate for travellers, saying the policy has "no more logic."




					www.bnnbloomberg.ca
				




The current crop in Ottawa need to go.  Here is hoping the business community finally starts to get out the knives.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> where national security concerns necessitate a 'no'.



Hiding OICs from the elected Parliament though?
That's greasy.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Hiding OICs from the elected Parliament though?
> That's greasy.


Real greasy....especially the sub-committees.


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Hiding OICs from the elected Parliament though?
> That's greasy.


Not at all, if the OICs are based on classified national security intelligence. Much of Parliament isn't cleared for that. We see the same issues with national security intelligence review and oversight.

I'd certainly like to know why there are so many more in this particular year, but the existence of classified OICs in the first place doesn't surprise me. We cannot trust the integrity of our classified intelligence to the stupidest or least-security-conscious member of Parliament...


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Real greasy....especially the sub-committees.


We don't know if it's shared with NSICOP or NSIRA. That's the very nature of classified review and oversight. They may well have looked at it but we as the public don't get to know that.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Not at all, if the OICs are based on classified national security intelligence. Much of Parliament isn't cleared for that. We see the same issues with national security intelligence review and oversight.
> 
> I'd certainly like to know why there are so many more in this particular year, but the existence of classified OICs in the first place doesn't surprise me. We cannot trust the integrity of our classified intelligence to the stupidest or least-security-conscious member of Parliament...



In my limited engagement with classified material, where there is an unusually large amount of 'secret stuff' it usually relates to the inexperience of those doing the classifying as opposed to whether or not the actual material needs to be protected by a special classification.

Inexperienced people tend to err on the side of caution.

I recall, with great joy, taking over positions from certain risk averse staff people who had choked the files with 'secrets', and then having a big shredding party within a day or two of going through it all.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> We cannot trust the integrity of our classified intelligence to the stupidest or least-security-conscious member of Parliament...


We're trusting it to someone with multiple ethical violations, someone who admires China's dictatorship, and who tried to pressure the attorney general to bend Canadian laws to suit the needs of a proven unethical company.

Canadians vote in members of Parliament to represent their interests. The current government hasn't built up very much "trust us" credit IMO.


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> In my limited engagement with classified material, where there is an unusually large amount of 'secret stuff' it usually relates to the inexperience of those doing the classifying as opposed to whether or not the actual material needs to be protected by a special classification.
> 
> Inexperienced people tend to err on the side of caution.
> 
> I recall, with great joy, taking over positions from certain risk averse staff people who had choked the files with 'secrets', and then having a big shredding party within a day or two of going through it all.



Depends. Some stuff you might see classified Secret and be exposed to at the army tactical level, sure... Some other parts of the National Security world, damned near anything can speak to sources, methods, or degree of penetration of an adversary.



Jarnhamar said:


> We're trusting it to someone with multiple ethical violations, someone who admires China's dictatorship, and who tried to pressure the attorney general to bend Canadian laws to suit the needs of a proven unethical company.
> 
> Canadians vote in members of Parliament to represent their interests. The current government hasn't built up very much "trust us" credit IMO.



That speaks to a very distinct matter, the need for better national security review. The shortcomings of NSICOP have been spoken on a fair bit. We don't have a proper equivalent to the fully empowered and security cleared congressional committees the Americans have. That said, regardless of the shortcomings we may presently have, on any given day executive decisions may need to be made based on highly classified material that absolutely cannot be compromised, but which absolutely must be considered in key decisions on things like can a certain foreign company but key parts of our infrastructure. We can want a better system (or better players within it), but the business itself must go on while we strive for that.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> We don't know if it's shared with NSICOP or NSIRA. That's the very nature of classified review and oversight. They may well have looked at it but we as the public don't get to know that.


It's Ottawa "Top Secret-SA" therefore the media will know about it by tomorrow 😆


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's Ottawa "Top Secret-SA" therefore the media will know about it by tomorrow 😆


Yup, exactly. Which is why the actually serious stuff is dealt with on a serious STFU basis.


----------



## GR66 (1 Jun 2022)

Might some of the OICs have to do with Canadian aid to Ukraine or the financial measures against Russia/Russian citizens?  Not all secrets are necessarily evil.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (1 Jun 2022)

GR66 said:


> Might some of the OICs have to do with Canadian aid to Ukraine or the financial measures against Russia/Russian citizens?  Not all secrets are necessarily evil.


I will agree on that point, however, if they were very much things that would reach the news cycle anyway, why keep the Opposition and other Parliamentary committees in the dark?

The problem with democracy is that if it's to be maintained, it needs to transparent. Anything that blurs that transparency, even if necessary, blurs that transparency; and opens the door to further allowances.

In cases where "Yes this is something we don't want on Hansard because XYZ..", fine. You can have those with the proper clearance be kept in the loop, but off the mic about it. Making everything so secret that even those who are trusted to keep said secrets can't see it... that's not just protecting information; that's withholding the truth.

Our current government has played fast and loose with every imaginable rule we have to protect our democracy, to a degree that has rivaled the previous government they attacked for a lack of transparency. My spidey senses are tingling that this is more than just "Protecting Canada and Canadians."


----------



## brihard (1 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> In cases where "Yes this is something we don't want on Hansard because XYZ..", fine. You can have those with the proper clearance be kept in the loop, but off the mic about it. Making everything so secret that even those who are trusted to keep said secrets can't see it... that's not just protecting information; that's withholding the truth.



But we don't know that that's the case. Again, we have NSICOP and NSIRA with oversight roles. Either or both may have seen some or much of this, but be constrained by security clearances for discussing it. We don't get to know what's at the table there, and what level of detail may have been disclosed to this very select audience.


----------



## lenaitch (1 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Depends. Some stuff you might see classified Secret and be exposed to at the army tactical level, sure... Some other parts of the National Security world, damned near anything can speak to sources, methods, or degree of penetration of an adversary.
> 
> 
> 
> That speaks to a very distinct matter, the need for better national security review. The shortcomings of NSICOP have been spoken on a fair bit. We don't have a proper equivalent to the fully empowered and security cleared congressional committees the Americans have. That said, regardless of the shortcomings we may presently have, on any given day executive decisions may need to be made based on highly classified material that absolutely cannot be compromised, but which absolutely must be considered in key decisions on things like can a certain foreign company but key parts of our infrastructure. We can want a better system (or better players within it), but the business itself must go on while we strive for that.



Clearly, for national security and economic sovereignty reasons, not every decision can be debated in open Parliament..  Not only would we benefit from something similar to the US committee system in terms of empowerment and clearances, but clear protocols about what gets handled where and by whom.  If nothing else, it might help solve the current problem of trust within the PMO.  The decision making should be secret but not the process.  I have to believe other parliamentary systems handle this better and it is a unique problem to us since we tend to spell national security in small letters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> But we don't know that that's the case.



That's the problem. The need to know basis can be taken advantage of so very easily. For it to have legitimacy you need trust and that's something the current government has laughed at. 

On the onset of covid the government tried to sneak unlimited spending power with no parliamentary oversight past the Parliment (and Canadians) but they were caught. 

Remember the recent gun ban "based on evidence" , but surprise that evidence was censored for national security reasons? (or whatever the excuse was) 

Just imagine the greasy shit they're sneaking past in these OICs.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Jun 2022)

As the Bard wrote, sharper than a serpent's tooth - this from the bought-and-paid-for _Globe & Mail_ (highlights mine)_ ..._


> Former finance minister Bill Morneau delivered a pointed critique of the federal Liberals’ economic policies, along with a series of recommendations for kickstarting growth, in his first public speech since leaving political life two years ago.
> 
> Mr. Morneau, finance minister in the Liberal government from 2015 to 2020, echoed the concerns of business leaders who have urged Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to focus on expanding the Canadian economy, rather than rolling out tax-and-spend initiatives.
> 
> “When I look at politics in Canada today – from the perspective of a former insider – I have to confess that I’m much more worried about our economic prospects today, in 2022, than I was seven years ago,” he said.  *“So much time and energy was spent on finding ways to redistribute Canada’s wealth that there was little attention given to the importance of increasing our collective prosperity,”* said Mr. Morneau in a speech Wednesday evening to the C.D. Howe Institute ...


Archived link here if you can't get thru the paywall for the rest of the article.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's the problem. The need to know basis can be taken advantage of so very easily. For it to have legitimacy you need trust and that's something the current government has laughed at.
> 
> On the onset of covid the government tried to sneak unlimited spending power with no parliamentary oversight past the Parliment (and Canadians) but they were caught.
> 
> ...



You probably don't want to peek into that abyss ....


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Jun 2022)

A couple of recent CBC headlines to lift spirits.

Typical mortgage payment could be 30% higher in 5 years, Bank of Canada warns​
The Liberals could do more to tackle inflation — but that's now a question for the fall​


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The Liberals could do more to tackle inflation — but that's now a question for the fall​


Yea, Fall 2025 lol


----------



## rmc_wannabe (9 Jun 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> A couple of recent CBC headlines to lift spirits.
> 
> Typical mortgage payment could be 30% higher in 5 years, Bank of Canada warns​


Yeah.... cause that's going to help out a lot of folks who either can't buy a home, or can't make rent for the price landlord's are charging because mortgage rates are going up....



Brad Sallows said:


> The Liberals could do more to tackle inflation — but that's now a question for the fall​


They could do a lot of things, but won't. I have zero faith that a government that hasn't the desire nor inclination to apply economic theory outside "the budget will balance itself" will lift a finger to help Canadian citizens catch a break.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (9 Jun 2022)

Well the economy is going to balance itself, the problem for those that overreached is they are going to suffer as it does so.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jun 2022)

From the bought-and-paid-for media:  tick, tick, tick?








						Don Martin: The fall of Justin Trudeau has begun
					

'After a weeks-long survey of just about everyone I've met ... the overall judgment on Justin Trudeau is one of being a political write-off,' writes Don Martin in an opinion column for CTVNews.ca. 'He’s too woke, too precious, preachy in tone, exceedingly smug, lacking in leadership, fading in...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Haggis (14 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> From the bought-and-paid-for media:  tick, tick, tick?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know what they say about opinions, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> You know what they say about opinions, right?


For _sure_, but the "opinionator" here isn't known for being a huge fan of Team Blue, either, so I figured it was worth throwing out there as another tile in the mosaic.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Jun 2022)

Interesting article 









						Don Martin: The fall of Justin Trudeau has begun
					

'After a weeks-long survey of just about everyone I've met ... the overall judgment on Justin Trudeau is one of being a political write-off,' writes Don Martin in an opinion column for CTVNews.ca. 'He’s too woke, too precious, preachy in tone, exceedingly smug, lacking in leadership, fading in...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## QV (15 Jun 2022)

I don’t know how anyone can believe a damn thing this government and the CBC says about anything anymore.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536870014426529799


----------



## YZT580 (15 Jun 2022)

so proven false pretenses.  Have they either released the frozen accounts, deleted the detailed information they gathered up on the participants, dropped charges made under the act, released the seized assets without prejudice?


----------



## QV (15 Jun 2022)

It is an outrageous assault on the very fabric of this country and what it stands for. In any other time it would result in the loss of confidence and downfall of the sitting government. If there is no serious accountability for this abuse of power, this time, trust in our institutions will be permanently ruined and the societal divisions will fracture further.


----------



## Haggis (15 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> It is an outrageous assault on the very fabric of this country and what it stands for. In any other time it would result in the loss of confidence and downfall of the sitting government. If there is no serious accountability for this abuse of power, this time, trust in our institutions will be permanently ruined and the societal divisions will fracture further.


The really outrageous part is that nobody cares.  In 30 months, this will be spun as "decisive leadership in the face of a national security threat", which will still be undefined due to cabinet confidence.


----------



## brihard (16 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> I don’t know how anyone can believe a damn thing this government and the CBC says about anything anymore.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536870014426529799


This claim is itself false. CBC did not retract its coverage and specifically has said it stands by what it said. Whoever you got this info from, you need to question whether you should rely on them as a source in future.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/editorsblog/cbc-stands-by-convoy-protest-donation-journalism-1.6490129


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> This claim is itself false. CBC did not retract its coverage and specifically has said it stands by what it said. Whoever you got this info from, you need to question whether you should rely on them as a source in future.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/editorsblog/cbc-stands-by-convoy-protest-donation-journalism-1.6490129


Hard one. Believe True North or CBC......I take neither.  Both are agenda driven.  But one has a redeeming quality, one admits it does and one actively denies it.


----------



## brihard (16 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Hard one. Believe True North or CBC......I take neither.  Both are agenda driven.  But one has a redeeming quality, one admits it does and one actively denies it.


I suspect you didn’t read the article, which cites the corroborating information from public proceedings that actually validated their reporting and showed them to even *under*estimate foreign funding.

CBC writ large is a separate topic. I’m responding to one narrow and verifiably false claim on a specific issue.


----------



## QV (16 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> This claim is itself false. CBC did not retract its coverage and specifically has said it stands by what it said. Whoever you got this info from, you need to question whether you should rely on them as a source in future.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/editorsblog/cbc-stands-by-convoy-protest-donation-journalism-1.6490129



I’m listening to questions and testimony during the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of the Emergency.


----------



## brihard (16 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> I’m listening to questions and testimony during the Special Joint Committee on the Declaration of the Emergency.


That’s fine. Nonetheless the claim that you repeated from Twitter was verifiably false.


----------



## Haggis (16 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> CBC writ large is a separate topic.


I can't believe I'm defending the CBC!

The federally funded broadcaster has been throwing shade at the Trudeau government quite a bit of late.  Possibly they see the tea leaves no longer favouring their boss, as Don Martin opined above.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> I don’t know how anyone can believe a damn thing this government and the CBC says about anything anymore.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536870014426529799


I’ve never wanted to punch a politician straight in the mouth anytime they’ve opened it before…

Sure, there are some I’ll let out a premature sigh about when they start to speak.  Some I’ll mute whatever I’m listening to while they speak.  Sometimes I’ll just listen and pick up whatever important bits I can.  


But the strong urge to just launch a fist into a face the moment their facial muscles indicate they are about to speak?  These clowns are the first 🤨😕👊🏻


----------



## QV (16 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s fine. Nonetheless the claim that you repeated from Twitter was verifiably false.


Take it up with the parliamentary committee and all the other-than-CBC news sources stating it.  

I wonder, will you ever acknowledged the discreditable conduct by the current LPC?


----------



## brihard (16 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> Take it up with the parliamentary committee and all the other-than-CBC news sources stating it.
> 
> I wonder, will you ever acknowledged the discreditable conduct by the current LPC?


For professional reasons I generally hold my tongue on certain things. I’ve been open about my voting record; if you failed to notice it was _not_ liberal last time around, that’s on you.

The funny thing is that Brock himself, in that clip, appears to be falling for the same misinformation that you are. I can understand you taking him at face value, so if he’s incorrect that’s on him, not on you. Nonetheless, from what I’ve been able to find on this, nobody seems to be able to show receipts for the purported retraction Brock alleges, and CBC has come out quite firmly to stand behind their reporting and their claim.

This appears to be the CBC story Brock is incensed about (the date is correct and it names those countries). I see nothing suggesting it has been retracted. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6345889

As later reported in CBC’s defence of this coverage, these facts were in fact borne out as this was followed up on, and CBC had underestimated foreign funding.

So anyway, feel free to dig further if you wish. At present it appears you’re uncritically believing a member of the opposition who does not appear to have validated the information he was working with while generating sound bytes.

EDIT TO ADD: CBC discloses its corrections and retractions here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/corrections-clarifications-1.5893564


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> I can't believe I'm defending the CBC!
> 
> The federally funded broadcaster has been throwing shade at the Trudeau government quite a bit of late.  Possibly they see the tea leaves no longer favouring their boss, as Don Martin opined above.


A lot of the so-called "bought and paid for" media (including the Sun chain) has been doing - _generally_ - a better job of highlighting the more greasy stuff.  Still far from perfect, with different outlets with different blind spots, but still ...

Don't worry, though - I'm sure they'll start disappointing again soon enough


----------



## RangerRay (16 Jun 2022)

Far be it for me to defend CBC, but one doesn’t need to make shit up about them discredit them. Making shit up just discredits the person making shit up and makes CBC look lily-white. 

Same could be said about anyone making shit up about anything.


----------



## Spencer100 (16 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> I can't believe I'm defending the CBC!
> 
> The federally funded broadcaster has been throwing shade at the Trudeau government quite a bit of late.  Possibly they see the tea leaves no longer favouring their boss, as Don Martin opined above.


My tin foil hat tightening.  Is this the backroom or others prepping the field for a change in leadership?  I have heard whispers that old boys are not happy....but they have not been for awhile.  So who knows.  

But with real kitchen table issues coming up things may be changing.  Gas prices, inflation etc. Interest rates.


----------



## RangerRay (17 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> My tin foil hat tightening.  Is this the backroom or others prepping the field for a change in leadership?  I have heard whispers that old boys are not happy....but they have not been for awhile.  So who knows.
> 
> But with real kitchen table issues coming up things may be changing.  Gas prices, inflation etc. Interest rates.


From what I have heard, there were no old boys left in the Liberal Party!


----------



## RangerRay (17 Jun 2022)

RangerRay said:


> From what I have heard, there were no old boys left in the Liberal Party!


By that, I mean that the old boys were pushed out by the Trudeau cult.


----------



## QV (17 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> For professional reasons I generally hold my tongue on certain things.


brihard, if the allegations about the LPC are true that they didn't have justification for the EA but did it anyway under false pretenses aided by the CBC, does that deserve being held accountable in your mind?


----------



## brihard (17 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> brihard, if the allegations about the LPC are true that they didn't have justification for the EA but did it anyway under false pretenses aided by the CBC, does that deserve being held accountable in your mind?


I’ve already spoken to what the evidence appears to support and refute regarding the CBC article. As your hypothetical is predicated on something that appears to not be true, I can’t engage on that in good faith.

I’m going to wait and see how this whole thing plays out and what the inquiry actually reveals. I’ve been part of too many investigations, some quite complex, to get caught out forming or committing to an opinion on something when I know there’s a lot I don’t yet know. My opinion, when I form one, will be based on evidence, not politics. I may or may not share it here.


----------



## GK .Dundas (17 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ve already spoken to what the evidence appears to support and refute regarding the CBC article. As your hypothetical is predicated on something that appears to not be true, I can’t engage on that in good faith.
> 
> I’m going to wait and see how this whole thing plays out and what the inquiry actually reveals. I’ve been part of too many investigations, some quite complex, to get caught out forming or committing to an opinion on something when I know there’s a lot I don’t yet know. My opinion, when I form one, will be based on evidence, not politics. I may or may not share it here.


Well said .
I'll add more when I have access to a real keyboard.


----------



## QV (17 Jun 2022)

You can't agree that an abuse of power on that scale and scope, if carried out by any elected government, is a very bad thing? If it's just a hypothetical, there should be no issue here. 

I can see why those in power can keep getting away with awful things when those around them continue to be silent. Not suggesting you are in a place or position to do anything about anything, but that attitude particularly when widespread in any institution is why we have the continuing discreditable conduct going on.  


I share Rex's opinion about this whole debacle:  Rex Murphy: Chrystia Freeland isn't interested in your questions about the Emergencies Act


----------



## brihard (17 Jun 2022)

Obviously any instance of government abuse of power, however small or large, deserves to be explored and addressed, whether it’s as small scale as a police officer abusing authority at a traffic stop, or as massive as a concerted and systematic tradition of bribery of officials.

Having conceded something so blindingly obvious as that, I’ll otherwise stick to talking about the actual subject at hand, to the extent that I feel informed enough to do so, and within the confines of the facts I have. Your views on this are very clear; you’re _not_ speaking of it as a hypothetical, but rather as something you’re already declared your views on, and to be frank I believe anything further you consume on this will be taken in through a heavy lens of confirmation bias. You’re not asking me to speak to hypothetical terms, you’re trying to lever me into giving a view on something you’ve already made your mind up on and that I have not. That’s not a discussion in good faith and I don’t have to play.


----------



## QV (17 Jun 2022)

I'm glad I could at least pull that out of you. As for the LPC under Trudeau or his inner circle, past is prelude.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2022)

For an inquiry to be effective people have to actually answer questions.

Rex Murphy: Chrystia Freeland isn't interested in your questions about the Emergencies Act








						Rex Murphy: Chrystia Freeland isn't interested in your questions about the Emergencies Act
					

Liberal ministers don't like answering questions




					nationalpost.com


----------



## brihard (17 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> For an inquiry to be effective people have to actually answer questions.
> 
> Rex Murphy: Chrystia Freeland isn't interested in your questions about the Emergencies Act
> 
> ...


Problem with that is that Rex Murphy appears to particularly rely on that same four minute exchange between Brock and Freeland which, as discussed above, appears predicated on Brock depending on false information. That sorta weakens his claim. Questions have to be based on accuracy to have much merit.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Jun 2022)

I said a few years ago the Cons should throw the game for a few elections and let the Libs self destruct.  

This seems to she happening more and more. 

2 things I've noticed: 

1) Harper was vilified in the last days of his term and he's squeaky clean compared to this gov... Wonder why that same spin hasnt been played... Hmmmm 

2) The cons seem to be looking a gift horse in the mouth and aren't able to capitalize on the Lib scandals.  

At least I'm a big Yankees fan, I have one winner right now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2022)

That's fair.

Given the governments past behavior on accountability do we expect them to answer questions in a straight forward informative manner? Or rip a page out of the Question Period book.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> That's fair.
> 
> Given the governments past behavior on accountability do we expect them to answer questions in a straight forward informative manner? Or rip a page out of the Question Period book.



As we've seen, these Liberals are big criers 


“Half of the people lie with their lips; the other half with their tears”

― Nassim Nicholas Taleb


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... Given the governments past behavior on accountability do we expect them to answer questions in a straight forward informative manner? Or rip a page out of the Question Period book.


Team Red in Ottawa is just the latest group that's ... loose on responses in Question Period.  And there's a reason it's not called "Answer Period"


----------



## RangerRay (17 Jun 2022)

I had to laugh when my wife was shocked, SHOCKED! that the Manitoba Tories weren’t answering questions in the Ledge during QP. She didn’t believe me when I told her is was ever thus and there was a reason it wasn’t called Answer Period. She is still scandalized! 🤣


----------



## Remius (17 Jun 2022)

The inquiry is set up to get answers as to why the EA was invoked.  Most people here agree that it wasn’t necessary.  The authorities are pretty sure that it helped though. 

So far the LPC is struggling to explain it.

Mendencino at least it would seem has misled parliament by claiming the police asked for it and it seems that wasn’t the case.  For that, calls for his resignation would be appropriate (and would have more weight if the opposition didn’t always call for resignations all the time).

Everything else seems political at this point.  The electorate will decide when the time comes if any of this matters.  I doubt though that most care.  Two thirds of Canadians wanted that stuff stopped and it was.  The same two thirds that weren’t on board with the protest are not likely to side with anyone that is looking for sympathy and Justice for the small amount of people who ended up affected by the EA.

The scale of the effect of the EA wasn’t wide enough to really affect enough people to care.  So it’s likely the LPC will avoid any real fallout given how far off the election is.  The CPC will try and use it against them but I’m not sure how effective that will be with the electorate.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> Mendencino at least it would seem has misled parliament



Not even a fib, more like an honest mistake really.


----------



## brihard (17 Jun 2022)

Remius said:


> The scale of the effect of the EA wasn’t wide enough to really affect enough people to care.  So it’s likely the LPC will avoid any real fallout given how far off the election is.  The CPC will try and use it against them but I’m not sure how effective that will be with the electorate.



Strong point. The only people affected by it were those directly involved, practically all of whose minds were very much made up already. The real tangible reach of this did not extend much past the protest/occupation sites, and the psychological reach did not extend much past those already ideologically aligned for or against the occupation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jun 2022)

brihard said:


> Strong point. The only people affected by it were those directly involved, practically all of whose minds were very much made up already. The real tangible reach of this did not extend much past the protest/occupation sites, and the psychological reach did not extend much past those already ideologically aligned for or against the occupation.



If Mendencino told a judge instead of the parliament that the police asked for the EA would that have constituted perjury?


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Jun 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I had to laugh when my wife was shocked, SHOCKED! that the Manitoba Tories weren’t answering questions in the Ledge during QP. She didn’t believe me when I told her is was ever thus and there was a reason it wasn’t called Answer Period. She is still scandalized! 🤣


ALL team jersey colours do it when they're in whatever wheelhouse they happen to be in.


----------



## brihard (17 Jun 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> If Mendencino told a judge instead of the parliament that the police asked for the EA would that have constituted perjury?


I don’t know enough to say, and that’s one of those things where I’d be very selective in giving my opinion anyway.


----------



## Remius (17 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> ALL team jersey colours do it when they're in whatever wheelhouse they happen to be in.


Very true.  Politicians everywhere rarely give straight answers.

As frustrating as our system may seem, Question Period allows our government to be questioned and challenged for all to see.  In some countries that can get you jailed or worse.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2022)

More from the bought-and-paid-for media:  "*The Liberals face a summer of discontent* -- The government has had a productive spring — but there are minefields ahead ..."


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> More from the bought-and-paid-for media:  "*The Liberals face a summer of discontent* -- The government has had a productive spring — but there are minefields ahead ..."



Can you imagine a Conservative government that had the We scandal, SNC Lavlin scandal, JWR scandal, boondoggled the response to the Afg withdrawal, appeared impotent WRT the Ukraine or invoked the emergency measures act would be covered with the same effort by the CBC ?


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Can you imagine a Conservative government that had the We scandal, SNC Lavlin scandal, JWR scandal, boondoggled the response to the Afg withdrawal, appeared impotent WRT the Ukraine or invoked the emergency measures act would be covered with the same effort by the CBC ?


To be fair, there was no shortage of CBC (and other usually-Redish) coverage of the WE and the AFG withdrawal.  Emergency Act?  Likely different, for sure.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To be fair, there was no shortage of CBC (and other usually-Redish) coverage of the WE and the AFG withdrawal.  Emergency Act?  Likely different, for sure.



Sometimes news can't help but cover a story, the spin and light they portray it in is where I get suspicious. 

I imagine if Harper had done all those things we'd simply be hearing howls from the establishment Media for his resignation and the pure evil of Conservative mind set people.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> ... if Harper had done all those things we'd simply be hearing howls from the establishment Media for his resignation and the pure evil of Conservative mind set people.


Well, most of the legacy media (their editorial boards, anyway) have been pretty clear about their position on the Emergencies Act without attacking Team Blue supporters, anyway ...








						Editorial | Invoking the Emergencies Act is a shocking admission of failure
					

‘Protests and blockades could and should already have been resolved by good intelligence, smart planning, and effective coordination among police forces.’




					www.thestar.com
				











						Globe editorial: Was the Emergencies Act justified? Without knowing what cabinet knew, it may be impossible to say
					

If the Trudeau government believed extraordinary circumstances were at play, it should be ready to take the equally extraordinary step of making sure that Canadians have all the evidence they need to be convinced it was right




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				











						Disobedience: The Emergencies Act and the long erosion of the rule of law in Canada
					

Howard Anglin: If there is to be any hope of avoiding further social fracture, it is long past time that Canada got serious about the consistent enforcement of…




					nationalpost.com
				











						EDITORIAL: Nothing funny about invoking emergency law
					

On one level, federal Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino’s continuing failure to produce an actual police force that actually asked the Trudeau government




					torontosun.com


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, most of the legacy media (their editorial boards, anyway) have been pretty clear about their position on the Emergencies Act without attacking Team Blue supporters, anyway ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Team blue isn't sitting in Gov.  Team red has to wear this. 

Do you think a team Blue gov would be getting the same treatment ?  Harper was skewed for months on end over the Duffy affair which was a big nothing burger.  

Bought and paid for media is best shown not in the title of article but with which the veracity and effort that it puts into influencing the populace. 

I would argue we aren't seeing that same tenacity.  A team blue government wouldn't have survived team reds first term with JT.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Team blue isn't sitting in Gov.  Team red has to wear this.


For SURE!


Halifax Tar said:


> Do you think a team Blue gov would be getting the same treatment ?  Harper was skewed for months on end over the Duffy affair which was a big nothing burger.


Do you think traditionally small-c-conservative media (including the bought-and-paid-for Toronto Sun and National Post), not to mention the small-c-conservative amplifier sites and commentariat, would call a Team Red government letting a Team Red senator off the hook by first saying "good to go with your expenses", then seeing a PM Chief of Staff cut a cheque for said expenses, a "big nothing burger"?  I'm not sure the Spencer Fernando's and Brian Lilley's of the world would have been OK with that 


Halifax Tar said:


> Bought and paid for media is best shown not in the title of article but with which the veracity and effort that it puts into influencing the populace.


And that can be harder to measure in a firm-data-over-a-long-term sort of way, especially when everybody quotes media they don't like when it agrees with their position, and attacks the very same outlets as "in the bag" when they don't like what's being said.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> For SURE!
> 
> Do you think traditionally small-c-conservative media (including the bought-and-paid-for Toronto Sun and National Post), not to mention the small-c-conservative amplifier sites and commentariat, would call a Team Red government letting a Team Red senator off the hook by first saying "good to go with your expenses", then seeing a PM Chief of Staff cut a cheque for said expenses, a "big nothing burger"?  I'm not sure the Spencer Fernando's and Brian Lilley's of the world would have been OK with that
> 
> And that can be harder to measure in a firm-data-over-a-long-term sort of way, especially when everybody quotes media they don't like when it agrees with their position, and attacks the very same outlets as "in the bag" when they don't like what's being said.



Funny how pale the Duffy affair seems now.  

Anyways, I did some searching around and they did cover it.  And not in a good light.  But they both seemed to frame their positions as an attack on the Senate itself and using Duffy as a example.  

So this brings me back to my original point which was basically who keeps the media onside ?  

We have media on both sides right now publishing material that I think is meant to divide us and a divided country is fertile ground for bigger problems.  

I think we've all been caught off guard with how much the media influences our lives and government and this needs to be reigned.  I see it as a treat to our very existence as. Nation. 

One need look no further than our southern neighbors to see what damage erroneous and intentionally divisive narratives can do to a people.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So this brings me back to my original point which was basically who keeps the media onside ?


Still a good question.


Halifax Tar said:


> We have media on both sides right now publishing material that I think is meant to divide us and a divided country is fertile ground for bigger problems.


Slight nuance, here.  Is the media trying to keep us divided, or other forces maybe using media as a weapon?  I don't think the owner of the West Podunk Intelligencer is out to divide people, but there's folks out there happy to use media coverage as a bludgeon.


Halifax Tar said:


> I think we've all been caught off guard with how much the media influences our lives and government and this needs to be reigned.  I see it as a treat to our very existence as. Nation.


I have enough faith in the resilience of the national institutions (poorly led as they may be right now) that I don't see media bias as an existential threat to Canada.  Like Oddball said on "Kelly's Heroes"  ....



Halifax Tar said:


> One need look no further than our southern neighbors to see what damage erroneous and intentionally divisive narratives can do to a people.


You're bang on there, and again, I think there's a case to be made that the media is a tool, not the driver.  If one were conspiratorial enough, one might say forces wanting to drive us apart could blame the media as a way to deflect attention from who's really trying to divide us.


----------



## QV (20 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Funny how pale the Duffy affair seems now.
> 
> Anyways, I did some searching around and they did cover it.  And not in a good light.  But they both seemed to frame their positions as an attack on the Senate itself and using Duffy as a example.
> 
> ...


One of the defenses for the media is "Look, they said something bad about Trudeau!".  This is a weak defense. A 70/30 split is still far more damaging to one side and they know that. The Duffy affair or the $16 orange juice scandal are good examples of the drum being beaten endlessly on lesser offences than what we've experienced in the last 7 years.

This is psyops on a domestic political level. And we wouldn't know the half of it if it weren't for the internet...     _Bill C-11 enters the chat_


----------



## Eaglelord17 (20 Jun 2022)

QV said:


> One of the defenses for the media is "Look, they said something bad about Trudeau!".  This is a weak defense. A 70/30 split is still far more damaging to one side and they know that. The Duffy affair or the $16 orange juice scandal are good examples of the drum being beaten endlessly on lesser offences than what we've experienced in the last 7 years.
> 
> This is psyops on a domestic political level. And we wouldn't know the half of it if it weren't for the internet...     _Bill C-11 enters the chat_


I suspect those resonated more with Canadians than most the current scandals unfortunately. We are small minded and vapid people. When the big picture scandals are brought up most Canadians can’t understand or simply don’t care about those. 16$ glasses of Orange Juice they do relate to though. 

10000$ Being misspent relates more to Canadians than billions as a billion is a hard number to actually visualize let alone comprehend. We can buy many things at the 10k point.


----------



## Halifax Tar (20 Jun 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I suspect those resonated more with Canadians than most the current scandals unfortunately. We are small minded and vapid people. When the big picture scandals are brought up most Canadians can’t understand or simply don’t care about those. 16$ glasses of Orange Juice they do relate to though.
> 
> 10000$ Being misspent relates more to Canadians than billions as a billion is a hard number to actually visualize let alone comprehend. We can buy many things at the 10k point.



I think you're bang on.  My wife talks about this WRT teaching.  Her school board tries to use relative scenarios when teaching things like math. 

I once had CO who took over month to sign a W/O CF152, when I asked if there was a problem he stated that its taking song because he was writing off the value of the average Canadians salary and he felt that deserved some thought.  I was very impressed, as most just rubber stamp and send back so long as the dollar value did not exceed their DOA.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're bang on.  My wife talks about this WRT teaching.  Her school board tries to use relative scenarios when teaching things like math.


Yup - people "get" a $16 glass of juice ore than they get nebulous amounts of $ for stuff they don't even see.


Halifax Tar said:


> I once had CO who took over month to sign a W/O CF152, when I asked if there was a problem he stated that its taking song because he was writing off the value of the average Canadians salary and he felt that deserved some thought.  I was very impressed, as most just rubber stamp and send back so long as the dollar value did not exceed their DOA.


Good on him!  Mind you, how one takes that also depends on the judgment & ethics of the person doing the review, right?  A keener taking a long time is considered very differently than a weiner taking a long time.

Meanwhile, another tea leaf reading of (at least potential) doom?








						Dispatch from the Front Lines: Did the Liberals just scoot through the point of no return?
					

A whiff of death in Ottawa. A very typical Liberal scandal at Foreign Affairs. Airports. Alberta. And more!




					theline.substack.com
				



From the piece:


> ... The Liberals started to look and feel really burnt out and exhausted this week. Of course they’re burnt out and exhausted. It’s been a hellish two years for everyone, and they were dealing with the Trump circus for years before that. They haven’t usually _looked_ exhausted, though. Even when they have no doubt been running on adrenaline, existential terror, caffeine and digestive bile, they kept running. That's not sustainable forever, though, and sooner or later, a government slips into the terminal phase of democratic politics. We've all seen that before, and we recognize the signs when we see it.
> 
> _(list of various recent Team Red stumbles/screw ups)_
> 
> ...


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Yup - people "get" a $16 glass of juice ore than they get nebulous amounts of $ for stuff they don't even see.
> 
> Good on him!  Mind you, how one takes that also depends on the judgment & ethics of the person doing the review, right?  A keener taking a long time is considered very differently than a weiner taking a long time.
> 
> ...



I truly think JT and the Liberals success in the last elections has more to do fear mongering by the media, complacent Canadians and a lack of other options than any skillful politicking by the aforementioned.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I truly think JT and the Liberals success in the last elections has more to do fear mongering by the media, complacent Canadians and a lack of other options than any skillful politicking by the aforementioned.


Agreed, even if we likely disagree on the percentage of responsibility for each element.

And being able to take advantage of playing the environmental/situational cards they're dealt could be seen as a sign of at least _some_ political acumen.


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Agreed, even if we likely disagree on the percentage of responsibility for each element.
> 
> And being able to take advantage of playing the environmental/situational cards they're dealt could be seen as a sign of at least _some_ political acumen.



To be clear I think JT and the Libs have achieved some success.  Thinking assisted death legislation and Marijuana legalization for example.  This two were good moves that needed to be done. 

I think we saw the level of their political acumen with the last election, which they expected to be a walk away majority. 

I don't think they have any idea how much people think they are just the best worst option.  Narcissism.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think they have any idea how much people think they are just the best worst option.  Narcissism.


Good political skills, but poor reading of the public radar - yup!


----------



## GK .Dundas (21 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Good political skills, but poor reading of the public radar - yup!


And sadly not all that uncommon in any of the political parties as of late.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> And sadly not all that uncommon in any of the political parties as of late.


With a bit of a different stew for each party, with different proportions of various ingredients:  "what kinda leader ya got?", "how are you playing the cards you're dealt?", "what are you committing to do?", "how well you listening?", etc.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Jun 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> To be clear I think JT and the Libs have achieved some success.  Thinking assisted death legislation and Marijuana legalization for example.  This two were good moves that needed to be done.
> 
> I think we saw the level of their political acumen with the last election, which they expected to be a walk away majority.
> 
> I don't think they have any idea how much people think they are just the best worst option.  Narcissism.


I believe the current Liberal crew really do have a "vision" for society.  They are working a plan, a strategy and most other things be damned.  I think the Trudeau Government has implemented more societal change in this country than in the last 40 years.  They have been very focused.  They have ignored issues that in the past that would have been address by different governments both Lib and Con.  They are pushing forward where past governments would have changed directions IE Harper first term or Martin or Chretien with the budget deficit.  Yes COVID had them do different things but the main focus never changed.  

I have admired that steadfast keeping the eye on the endgame at all times of this government.


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I believe the current Liberal crew really do have a "vision" for society.  They are working a plan, a strategy and most other things be damned.  I think the Trudeau Government has implemented more societal change in this country than in the last 40 years.  They have been very focused.  They have ignored issues that in the past that would have been address by different governments both Lib and Con.  They are pushing forward where past governments would have changed directions IE Harper first term or Martin or Chretien with the budget deficit.  Yes COVID had them do different things but the main focus never changed.
> 
> I have admired that steadfast keeping the eye on the endgame at all times of this government.



There is no doubt they have a vision.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (21 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I believe the current Liberal crew really do have a "vision" for society.  They are working a plan, a strategy and most other things be damned.  I think the Trudeau Government has implemented more societal change in this country than in the last 40 years.  They have been very focused.  They have ignored issues that in the past that would have been address by different governments both Lib and Con.  They are pushing forward where past governments would have changed directions IE Harper first term or Martin or Chretien with the budget deficit.  Yes COVID had them do different things but the main focus never changed.
> 
> I have admired that steadfast keeping the eye on the endgame at all times of this government.


The problem is when that vision takes priority over current events and realities that don't fit into said vision. COVID-19, Ukraine, Stagflation, etc. are all solid reasons to pivot from the party line; even temporarily, to offset some of the strain felt by the voting populace. The problem I have with this government is its inability, or lack of desire, to read the ground and act accordingly.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Jun 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> The problem is when that vision takes priority over current events and realities that don't fit into said vision. COVID-19, Ukraine, Stagflation, etc. are all solid reasons to pivot from the party line; even temporarily, to offset some of the strain felt by the voting populace. The problem I have with this government is its inability, or lack of desire, to read the ground and act accordingly.


You are 100% right.  That is my point.  They will not move from the plan, the vision if they do it's very grudgingly.  All I was saying is their stick to it ness is the most I have ever seen.  

I wish they would move.  Open the oil taps and bring down the price a little.  etc.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Jun 2022)

Liberals (and NDP) are fighting a losing war.  Internet media have obliterated the control that the establishment classes used to have in a way that hasn't been experienced since the printing press was widely introduced.  Their response is to try to stuff the sh!t back in the horse by finding creative ways to control information and by talking up crises which can be used as pretexts for top-down impositions.  In the long run, I doubt the people seeking increased surveillance and tighter regulation will prevail.  It is all but impossible to lie, obfuscate, or omit inconvenient context and evidence in anything that is publicly available.  I'm surprised that anyone even tries any more.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Jun 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Liberals (and NDP) are fighting a losing war.  Internet media have obliterated the control that the establishment classes used to have in a way that hasn't been experienced since the printing press was widely introduced.  Their response is to try to stuff the sh!t back in the horse by finding creative ways to control information and by talking up crises which can be used as pretexts for top-down impositions.  In the long run, I doubt the people seeking increased surveillance and tighter regulation will prevail.  It is all but impossible to lie, obfuscate, or omit inconvenient context and evidence in anything that is publicly available.  I'm surprised that anyone even tries any more.


I think they are winning.  They have the media bought in this county and soon will have the internet censorship locked up.  The large internet firms are in their camp.  Its just some small independent ones not towing the line.  

Long term they have this in the bag.  The schools have long been teaching their world view.  The universities are are on side.  Its just a matter of time.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Jun 2022)

They're losing.  They haven't really bought the media, notwithstanding lamentations about the effects of selective public funding.  Internet censorship is unlikely to reach down very far (past the first layer of sewerage on the chattering social apps).  The kind of indoctrination that happens in educational institutions isn't persistent; people continue learning and adapting their views according to the lives they live.  Don't mistake loud for widespread.

The left-leaners like to spend; they're overspending; in their efforts to satisfy new calls for spending they are ignoring existing highly-valued institutions (eg. public health insurance) and the resulting dissatisfaction.  Complexity of everything is generally increasing.  The more the effort to try to impose central control, the sooner the loss of effective control.

Historically the threshold for unmanageable discontent, let alone actual revolution, increases with prosperity - the more people have, the more reluctant they are to risk it.  But there is always a threshold.  Our governments are predisposed to not maintain large standing security forces.  All they can do is try to co-opt the security institutions and disarm the people.  But, the breaking point will occur at merely unmanageable discontent, which is expressed during elections.  Violent revolution I would expect only if someone were deranged enough to attempt to discontinue elections.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> ... They have the media bought in this county ...


I keep hearing that, but I also see a lot of far-from-fans of the current regime share things like these as proof of how bad things are ....


The Bread Guy said:


> Editorial | Invoking the Emergencies Act is a shocking admission of failure
> 
> 
> ‘Protests and blockades could and should already have been resolved by good intelligence, smart planning, and effective coordination among police forces.’
> ...


Which is it, then?  If they're bought or seen to be bought, both opponents and supporters of the current regime may have to question why they share stuff from bought sources whenever it supports their case, and bashes the same sources when they disagree.


----------



## Spencer100 (21 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I keep hearing that, but I also see a lot of far-from-fans of the current regime share things like these as proof of how bad things are ....
> 
> Which is it, then?  If they're bought or seen to be bought, both opponents and supporters of the current regime may have to question why they share stuff from bought sources whenever it supports their case, and bashes the same sources when they disagree.


Now only after the Emergency Act was used and it is so egregious they can not do anything but say that. At the time is was silence or full support.  They are in CYA mode.  

So my spiderscene says their maybe knives out inside the Liberal party.  The PM and team has upset some in the party.  The old guard is pissed but they have been pushed out.  But Trudeau has a habit of throwing others under the bus to save himself.  You can only do that for so long.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Jun 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Now only after the Emergency Act was used and it is so egregious they can not do anything but say that. At the time is was silence or full support.  They are in CYA mode.


Well, some of those editorial board opinion pieces I shared date back to February of this year, so we'll have to agree to disagree on how long the media's been poking Ottawa on that one.


Spencer100 said:


> So my spiderscene says their maybe* knives out inside the Liberal party*.


Big time - this from another bought-and-paid-for outlet, the _Toronto Star, _written by someone who's traditionally been no fan of Team Blue ...


> ... Since the prime minister’s reelection last fall, the Liberal minority government has increasingly been running on empty. Instead of giving Trudeau’s team a second wind, the striking of a co-operation agreement with the NDP last March seems to have given it a license for inertia.
> 
> As the House prepares to rise for the summer, the main takeaway from the first half of 2022 on Parliament Hill is that of a Liberal government flying blind on autopilot ...


Tick, tick, tick ...🍿


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jun 2022)

If it unfolded as it's been said by MSM to have unfolded, yup ...








						Stephen Maher: Either Lucki has to go, or Trudeau and Blair do
					

Public safety ministers and prime ministers are in the vote-seeking business. RCMP commissioners aren't supposed to be.




					theline.substack.com


----------



## ModlrMike (23 Jun 2022)

Why can't it be all three?


----------



## Haggis (23 Jun 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If it unfolded as it's been said by MSM to have unfolded, yup ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One would then have to admit that the May 1, 2020 "assault style" firearms ban OIC was based on false pretenses.  That could infer that the GoC really has no evidence to defend the OIC against the court challenges underway (having invoked Cabinet Confidence under S 39 of the Canada Evidence Act  already to protect that evidence from disclosure).


----------



## Eaglelord17 (23 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> One would then have to admit that the May 1, 2020 "assault style" firearms ban OIC was based on false pretenses.  That could infer that the GoC really has no evidence to defend the OIC against the court challenges underway (having invoked Cabinet Confidence under S 39 of the Canada Evidence Act  already to protect that evidence from disclosure).


Don't forget only invoking that part of the act when ORDERED by a court to provide the information. Before that point they didn't see a need to keep that information secret.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jun 2022)

Haggis said:


> One would then have to admit that the May 1, 2020 "assault style" firearms ban OIC was based on false pretenses.  That could infer that the GoC really has no evidence to defend the OIC against the court challenges underway (having invoked Cabinet Confidence under S 39 of the Canada Evidence Act  already to protect that evidence from disclosure).



I wonder if this could lead to another legal challenge ?


----------



## RangerRay (8 Jul 2022)

Interesting article on why we seem to have a lack of state capacity under our current government. 









						John Ivison: The rot in Canada’s dysfunctional government is coming from the top
					

The service-delivery problems the Liberal government is experiencing has more to do with cynicism within the bureaucracy than bungling.




					nationalpost.com
				




“The only way for deputy ministers to get the funding they need to fix the foundations is to let political leaders feel the pain of the choices they have made,” said one senior public servant.


----------



## CBH99 (10 Jul 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Interesting article on why we seem to have a lack of state capacity under our current government.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't think I've ever seen the morale of the country as low as it is now...

There is simply a lack of faith in the government's ability, or willingness, to lead from the front, be accountable,  Or do anything other than respond to problems at a bare minimum level.  

_This is not leadership,  It's s****_ management at best.*


 Trudeau and his senior ministers are seen to be lying & in contempt of almost any questioning they receive - refusing to answer questions directly, or falling back to some clearly empty woke nonsense.   
I think this shows most people that they don't even believe what's coming out of their own mouths, so naturally - why would anybody else?

______


 If we want the morale of the country to bounce back, We have to do things to inspire that comeback.  
-  Stop striving for mediocrity, and be proactive with ideas and ambitions.  


-  Strive for greatness, not to be average.


-  Be accountable & lead by example.   

If you make a genuinely innocent mistake, just own it and learn from it.  

People will respect and admire someone who says "We made this mistake while we were attempting to do X.   We realize now that doing Y would have been a better approach, and will implement that going forwards."

_No this does not apply to basic stuff the average 10 year old already knows not to do._


-  Sometimes speaking less is actually saying more.  Learn when to shut the f*** up.


-  And not to sound overly pestimistic, but just use some common sense sometimes.  

* I have a feeling a lot of things in this country will start going in a better direction if the morale was on its way up.*


0.02


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jul 2022)

The pandemic was demoralizing.  Now the stories are emerging of children screwed up by the mitigation measures imposed upon them, alongside stories of people who are going to suffer severely if not die because of backlogs in a health care system that was already running behind.  Meanwhile the government of Canada is leaning into new spending programs, and one half of the partnership - the half that wants to spend the most - is ideologically predisposed to top-down economic controls that tend to strangle the revenue they need.  People may not understand the underlying ideas or know the terms of art, but they can grasp the idea of people who are doing what they prefer to do and procrastinating on high-priority tasks.


----------



## YZT580 (10 Jul 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The pandemic was demoralizing.  Now the stories are emerging of children screwed up by the mitigation measures imposed upon them, alongside stories of people who are going to suffer severely if not die because of backlogs in a health care system that was already running behind.  Meanwhile the government of Canada is leaning into new spending programs, and one half of the partnership - the half that wants to spend the most - is ideologically predisposed to top-down economic controls that tend to strangle the revenue they need.  People may not understand the underlying ideas or know the terms of art, but they can grasp the idea of people who are doing what they prefer to do and procrastinating on high-priority tasks.


Where is S. Harper when you need him


----------



## Remius (10 Jul 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Where is S. Harper when you need him


Removed from power by an electorate that was tired of him.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (10 Jul 2022)

My main beef is that a lot of the "economic relief" packages are band-aid fixes to the larger "economic stagnation" that has plagued us long before COVID was a word in our vocabulary.

This government in 2015 was adamant that the Green Shift was needed and that we could do it on a manner that wouldn't cripple our industry and make us a "leader" in this endeavor. They went forward with policies to restrict oil and gas, without coming up with concrete policies to backfill the shortfall. Add in a pandemic that crippled industry and services, a population that has now eaten into whatever savings they had, and a hostile global market.... we have no safety net outside of "print more money, cut more cheques." Worse still,  they plan to keep pushing forward with the policies because "Climate change is going to cause more issues than this economic down turn or the land war in Europe.."

It's like Hitler waiting for the Allies to land at Calais. "No no... just you wait... it's coming...I'm sure of it...." isn't much solace to the people affected immediately by it.


----------



## CBH99 (10 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Removed from power by an electorate that was tired of him.


Oh you…you & your facts… 😤

When it comes to our current economic situation, and where I think we all see it leading us in the fairly near future - someone like Stephen Harper getting into office would be great.  (Or at least be the guy in charge of creating & implementing monetary/fiscal policies.)



We can’t keep going in the direction that we are.  

We have the potential to be so much better off than we currently are, we’re too busy creating red tape for ourselves and bungling opportunities — only to have countries like China and India reverse whatever progress is achieved.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jul 2022)

> Removed from power by an electorate that was tired of him.



Elections have consequences, including unforeseen ones.


----------



## RangerRay (10 Jul 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Where is S. Harper when you need him


The secrecy, control freakiness and vindictiveness was getting old…sound familiar? 🤔

At least he was a serious, competent manager (for the most part).


----------



## CBH99 (11 Jul 2022)

RangerRay said:


> The secrecy, control freakiness and vindictiveness was getting old…sound familiar? 🤔
> 
> At least he was a serious, competent manager (for the most part).


So a slight admission on my part, I actually ‘know’ Stephen Harper - but I use the word very lightly.  

My father and him actually crossed paths shortly before he was elected as PM, and a few times during his tenure.  All in business settings, as my dad worked as a consultant for a variety of post secondary institutions - and somehow that ended up in them meeting a few times, and becoming friendly acquaintances.  

I did get the chance to speak to him in an informal setting, casually and briefly - but privately - a few years back.  Seemed like a nice enough guy.  

I remember he said he ended up quite sour & frustrated near the end, because he felt like he always had to kick the public service in the @$$ to get them to do their jobs sometimes - and any progress that he tried to make was hindered by stupid people suggesting more & more red tape.  

He joked he felt like Darth Vader near the end, aannndddd…that was it.  It’s like he was setting up a joke for the punchline, but then just had a sip of his drink & moved on.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jul 2022)

Skysix said:


> What about a state of emergency declration and mandating 24/7 work on the assessments etc by the relevant agencies. I find it hard to believe the process is immutably slow


You still need to collect the information on geo tech, archaeology, water issues, etc. These also fall partly in the Provincial arena and without a World War, they are not going to relinquish their authorities. Plus all this has to happen in 3-4 months of the summer season generally, so 4 years might give you 1 full year of field studies. Plus the work of collecting it is on the companies and it's expensive enough. Unless we the taxpayers are willing to shell out the difference, a company is likley to say "No way". If my math is right, then a 1300km x 75m pipeline right of way works out to 97,000,000m to be reviewed.


----------



## RedFive (13 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Huh, I guess Trump was right and ahead of his time to criticize EU reliance on Russian energy… I wonder whos laughing now.


Man, for all the negative press that guy faced he sure was right an awful lot, no matter how offended the left leaning media was eh?


----------



## CBH99 (13 Jul 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Well, that didn't take long. The sad part? It's what the whole world believes right now and we brought it all on ourselves. This image will not fade for a long, long time. We are now, officially, the laughing stock of the world's militaries.
> 
> View attachment 71983


There are probably a few countries that have not reported in the media the Canadians' updated dress regs.

 Even if their media has taken some interest in them,  They can't say much more than the CAF are updating their dress regs to be more inclusive.

It's us that are painfully aware of where these changes originated from, and why - and the dark backstory behind such happy headlines.


(Sorry mods, back on topic)


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Jul 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> ... *It's what the whole world believes right now* ...


That's a mighty broad brush there, based on one cartoon.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jul 2022)

RedFive said:


> Man, for all the negative press that guy faced he sure was right an awful lot, no matter how offended the left leaning media was eh?


He was right on many things, I just wished it came packaged better.


----------



## QV (13 Jul 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> He was right on many things, I just wished it came packaged better.


I could go for the bull-in-china-shop model again right about now.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> I could go for the bull-in-china-shop model again right about now.


…that was less Russian-friendly out the other side of their mouth…


----------



## QV (13 Jul 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …that was less Russian-friendly out the other side of their mouth…


I'd argue he handled Russia and North Korea far better than the previous or current administration. But I don't want to derail...


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Jul 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …that was less Russian-friendly out the other side of their mouth…



Can't help myself......... Biden, Burisma, Yanukovych, Putin.


----------



## CBH99 (13 Jul 2022)

I think we are all trying not to derail - maybe this is a thread that could be merged with the Liberal Government thread?

The president of Ukraine is not impressed with the Prime Minister of Canada for a decision which very much skirts the issue of sanctions against Russia.  

I think we could safely merge this topic into one of the other threads, no?


----------



## CBH99 (13 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Solid ‘meh’ on that. The bulk of the combat arms will still be comprised of dudes in their late teens or twenties with a vested interest in getting laid. That alone will keep most of the ridiculousness in check. Add some alpha male peer pressure and I doubt there will be much to it once the novelty of giving the CSM an aneurysm wears off. Some dinosaurs and bigots will whine about the new regs, most of the actual troops and serving NCOs won’t care much and will get on with it. As long as the troops can still kill people and break their shit in the defence of the national interest under the lawful direction of the civil authority, the rest is just white noise. I’m sure there were similar cartoons when women were allowed in the combat arms, and when CAF stopped purging gays.


That was my thought also.

The military will not stop having a subculture, and one can never downplay the influence in organization’s subculture has.  Nor will certain jobs stop requiring individuals to be able to operate/wear specialized equipment.  


So while the dress regs may be updated and relaxed… and there may be a few minor incidents blown out of proportion at first - at the end of the day I imagine it will be business as usual.


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> I think we are all trying not to derail - maybe this is a thread that could be merged with the Liberal Government thread?
> 
> The president of Ukraine is not impressed with the Prime Minister of Canada for a decision which very much skirts the issue of sanctions against Russia.
> 
> I think we could safely merge this topic into one of the other threads, no?


Good idea, given the range of non-UKR content coming into play.

Please stand by ...

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## KevinB (24 Jul 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> And dogpiling. Everyone is after Hockey Canada even our “progressive feminist” PM.
> 
> We need a sarcasm emoji….


I wonder what his payout slush fund looks like


----------



## Spencer100 (24 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> I wonder what his payout slush fund looks like


2.2 million is the quoted figure to the girl.


----------



## KevinB (25 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> 2.2 million is the quoted figure to the girl.


I was talking about your PM and his handsy nature


----------



## Spencer100 (25 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> I was talking about your PM and his handsy nature


So was I.   

The 2.2 million was the payout to the 14 year old girl and family.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> So was I.
> 
> The 2.2 million was the payout to the 14 year old girl and family.




Separate from the invoice from the PR firm to Trudeau for their services…


----------



## KevinB (25 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> So was I.
> 
> The 2.2 million was the payout to the 14 year old girl and family.


Damn - I was asleep at the wheel on that one.


----------



## Spencer100 (25 Jul 2022)

KevinB said:


> Damn - I was asleep at the wheel on that one.


LOL 

I don't understand how the PM can even live with himself.  The cognitive dissonance of his actions is something to behold.  

oh here is where you can start and go down the rabbit hole.






						Trudeau’s West Grey accuser was much younger than first thought | The Buffalo Chronicle
					






					buffalochronicle.com
				




Everyone's mileage may vary on this one.


----------



## GK .Dundas (25 Jul 2022)

Ahh the Buffalo "We"ll print what ever you pay us to "Chronicle . That is where the story actually seems to have started.
It seems to gotten it's traction at least from them. I notice that by and large no one with a working set of frontal lobes actually gives this outlet any real value as a source.


----------



## Remius (25 Jul 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Ahh the Buffalo "We"ll print what ever you pay us to "Chronicle . That is where the story actually seems to have started.


It’s a hot garbage rag.


----------



## QV (25 Jul 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Ahh the Buffalo "We"ll print what ever you pay us to "Chronicle . That is where the story actually seems to have started.



Trudeau left West Grey under unusual circumstances... and his roommate at the time didn't fair as well as JT did. But I'm sure everything is just fine.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Trudeau left West Grey under unusual circumstances... and his roommate at the time didn't fair as well as JT did. But I'm sure everything is just fine.


If that had been my Daughter, and any of her teachers had their hand where it is in this pic, it would have came back a bloody stump.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Trudeau’s West Grey accuser was much younger than first thought | The Buffalo Chronicle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair ball questioning questionable interaction(s), but one can do way better than a source that also shared such classics as ...





						RCMP plans to charge Trudeau with obstruction in SNC Lavalin affair, following federal elections | The Buffalo Chronicle
					






					buffalochronicle.com


----------



## Spencer100 (25 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Fair ball questioning questionable interaction(s), but one can do way better than a source that also shared such classics as ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I knew most here would not like that piece.  But it is there.   I did say it would lead down the rabbit hole 

true or not.  That time in the PM life is still not fully accounted for from a man in such a major position today.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Jul 2022)

Snopes on the West Point Grey thing....



No publicly available evidence supports any claim that Trudeau had a sexual relationship with either a student or a student’s mother while he was a teacher at West Point Grey Academy between 1998 and 2001, nor that such an episode contributed to his departure from the school’s teaching staff.









						Did Justin Trudeau Stop Teaching at a Vancouver Private School Under the Cloud of a Sex Scandal?
					

Days before Canada's 2019 federal election, rumors emerged about the future prime minister's 2001 departure from the West Point Grey Academy.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Snopes on the West Point Grey thing....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stand by for "left wing fake news" in 3, 2 ...


----------



## QV (26 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Snopes on the West Point Grey thing....
> 
> 
> 
> *No **publicly **available evidence *


That part is probably true.


----------



## Spencer100 (26 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Snopes on the West Point Grey thing....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Snopes is no more reliable than the Buffalo Chronicle.  Lol 

So we can still fling poop at each other.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Snopes on the West Point Grey thing....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes people always leave Drama teaching jobs with NDA's involved, because you don't want the other schools to know what your school Christmas play will be based on.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Yes people always leave Drama teaching jobs with NDA's involved, because you don't want the other schools to know what your school Christmas play will be based on.


Well, according to some commentary on the hockey player allegations, some would say who cares if it's true, right?  After all, some might also find it odd the women in question didn't appear to have approached police with their concerns, and settled for financial compensation instead.

Do we believe victims (as many seem to do in one case), or do we take accusations with a grain of salt (as many are doing in another case)?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, according to some commentary on the hockey player allegations, some would say who cares if it's true, right?  After all, some might also find it odd the women in question didn't appear to have approached police with their concerns, and settled for financial compensation instead.
> 
> Do we believe victims (as many seem to do in one case), or do we take accusations with a grain of salt (as many are doing in another case)?



The CAF-Hockey Canada Venn diagram overlaps...


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The CAF-Hockey Canada Venn diagram overlaps...
> 
> 
> View attachment 72220


Tough room, tough room ....


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Snopes is no more reliable than the Buffalo Chronicle.  Lol
> 
> So we can still fling poop at each other.


It’s pretty much been debunked.  And the CPC was taken to task for amplifying it. 









						Conservative press release on Trudeau’s teaching job amplified fake news, analysis shows - National | Globalnews.ca
					

A Conservative press release about Liberal leader Justin Trudeau's teaching career amplified unfounded claims that he was fired for sexual misconduct, an analysis shows.




					globalnews.ca
				




Plenty of real stuff to go after Trudeau.  You don’t need the Buffalo Chronicle Fantasy website for that .


----------



## QV (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s pretty much been debunked. And the CPC was taken to task for amplifying it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Has it been actually debunked? Or just denied?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> Has it been actually debunked? Or just denied?


The Left is not kind at all to anyone who would damage their messiah or champions. If a woman had a complaint against him, she would likely be excommunicated by her social circle for speaking out. Social pressure is a powerful thing and it is very much how the Left operates.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Instead of inventing things, if the right actually went after real issues they wouldn’t constantly lose.  That’s the frustrating part.  His hair, his rumoured marital status, this allegation with no legs started by a fake new site etc etc. 

How about getting serious about him?  Maybe then the right can get a win. 

Things like this discredit real issues.


----------



## QV (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Instead of inventing things, if the right actually went after real issues they wouldn’t constantly lose.  That’s the frustrating part.  His hair, his rumoured marital status, this allegation with no legs started by a fake new site etc etc.
> 
> How about getting serious about him?  Maybe then the right can get a win.
> 
> Things like this discredit real issues.



The proven things don't matter either. Blackface, SNC, WE, blah blah blah.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The Left is not kind at all to anyone who would damage their messiah or champions. If a woman had a complaint against him, she would likely be excommunicated by her social circle for speaking out. Social pressure is a powerful thing and it is very much how the Left operates.


Maybe the Buffalo Chronicle should follow up with the victims to see if this happened to them


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Instead of inventing things, if the right actually went after real issues they wouldn’t constantly lose.  That’s the frustrating part.  His hair, his rumoured marital status, this allegation with no legs started by a fake new site etc etc.
> 
> How about getting serious about him?  Maybe then the right can get a win.
> 
> Things like this discredit real issues.


The reason this persists is that it very much in line with everything else that we know he has done. So the likelihood of him being inappropriate with a student is high. There is already enough to have him kicked out of the Liberal party, but they keep forgiving him, so perhaps ask why the Liberals will still associate with him? Yes the Right needs to clean their house as well, this a common occurrence in Canadian politics, when a party is sent to the hinterlands to reform itself.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The reason this persists is that it very much in line with everything else that we know he has done. So the likelihood of him being inappropriate with a student is high. There is already enough to have him kicked out of the Liberal party, but they keep forgiving him, so perhaps ask why the Liberals will still associate with him? Yes the Right needs to clean their house as well, this a common occurrence in Canadian politics, when a party is sent to the hinterlands to reform itself.


I would be interested in the list of things he’s done that makes the likelihood of him being inappropriate with a Student high.  And it only seems to persist in those that have an unreasonable amount of hate for him.

Because I think you are making giant leaps.  There is a reason the CPC dropped pursuing that story.

Mod edit to remove duplicate quote


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Jul 2022)

Seriously you can't see the pattern? I suggest looking at all the scandals and missteps, from the WE scandal, the handling of his AG, etc, etc.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Seriously you can't see the pattern? I suggest looking at all the scandals and missteps, from the WE scandal, the handling of his AG, etc, etc.


None of that points to a high probability of an inappropriate relationship with a minor.  Come on.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> If that had been my Daughter, and any of her teachers had their hand where it is in this pic, it would have came back a bloody stump.



He even blackened his hands, that's paying attention to detail.

Infantry candidates take notice.


----------



## QV (27 Jul 2022)

There's been a lot of smoke and a lot of fires with this PM. There is no question he must go, and go as soon as possible. It is now ABJT.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> There's been a lot of smoke and a lot of fires with this PM. There is no question he must go, and go as soon as possible. It is now ABJT.


He won’t be running next time.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> ... Infantry candidates take notice.


... as well as leadership course candidates ....


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> if the right actually went after real issues they wouldn’t constantly lose.





Remius said:


> How about getting serious about him?



Serious like sexually assaulting a reporter, ethical violations, pressing the AG to bend the law, black face monkey behavior in a time when 25 year old Facebook jokes can get everyone else fired, messed up EA?

Come on, he's untouchable.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> None of that points to a high probability of an inappropriate relationship with a minor.  Come on.


Agreed current f**kery doesn't _necessarily_ point to that kind of previous f**kery, but this is also 1000% true ....


Jarnhamar said:


> Come on, he's untouchable.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Agreed current f**kery doesn't _necessarily_ point to that kind of previous f**kery, but this is also 1000% true ....


Absolutely.  He is untouchable.  But his opponents have helped in making that happen, 

Take Jarnhammer’s claim of sexual assault.  Until you dig a bit and it looks like a case of innapropriate and unwanted touching.  Not that that is good by any means,  but after speculation of it being sexual assault from his detractors, when the witnesses came forward to talk, it didn’t seem as bad as sexual assault thus minimizing the whole thing.  

 And to make matters worse, people brought it all I to the light without even asking the victim which made them, the detractors look worse.  

So yes.  Maybe get serious with what and how and maybe something will stick.  

But as I said.  He won’t be running again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Absolutely.  He is untouchable.  But his opponents have helped in making that happen,



Let's not over look the apathy of Canadians to not give a shit about stuff when it's convenient to do so. 



> Take Jarnhammer’s claim of sexual assault.  Until you dig a bit and it * looks like a case of innapropriate and unwanted touching* .  Not that that is good by any means,  but after speculation of it being sexual assault from his detractors, when the witnesses came forward to talk, it didn’t seem as bad as sexual assault thus minimizing the whole thing.



 Are you saying that a man groping a woman without consent isn't considered sexual assault under the criminal code of Canada?


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Let's not over look the apathy of Canadians to not give a shit about stuff when it's convenient to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that a man groping a woman without consent isn't considered sexual assault under the criminal code of Canada?


Again.  The exact details about what happened have never surfaced.  The woman in question made a statement and closed the discussion.  

Are you saying unwanted touching or in appropriate behaviour is sexual assault?


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

The reporter made a statement that Trudeau did exactly as it was reported and then chose not to pursue it.

Unwanted touching is assault. When you're groping someone, it's sexual assault.



> Assault
> 
> 265 (1) A person commits an assault when
> 
> ...



The Criminal Code defines it as any touching of another person without their consent where the touching is of a sexual nature, or where the sexual integrity of the alleged victim is violated.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> The reporter made a statement that Trudeau did exactly as it was reported and then chose not to pursue it.
> 
> Unwanted touching is assault. When you're groping someone, it's sexual assault.
> 
> ...


Right, so I had a Sgt under investigation under OP Honour for putting his hand on a subordinate’s back at a non work related function.  Unwanted touching.  Sexual assault? 

Again, the accusation of what went down was never disclosed in Trudeau’s case.  Never tried in court.  So guilty?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Right, so I had a Sgt under investigation under OP Honour for putting his hand on a subordinate’s back at a non work related function.  Unwanted touching.  Sexual assault?
> 
> Again, the accusation of what went down was never disclosed in Trudeau’s case.  Never tried in court.  So guilty?



Well, after all, he did have a good excuse, right? 


'People experience things differently,' Trudeau says of groping allegations​








						'People experience things differently,' Trudeau says of groping allegations
					

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says there is no need to conduct an investigation into an allegation that he inappropriately touched a female reporter in British Columbia 18 years ago.



					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, after all, he did have a good excuse, right?
> 
> 
> 'People experience things differently,' Trudeau says of groping allegations​
> ...


You are all missing my point. 

His opponents make things bigger than they are.  So when the facts come out, and they don’t seem as big a deal as they were made out to be.  

“OMG age sexually assaulted her!”  Sounds bad.  Is bad.  But then it comes out that it was innapropriate behaviour or unwanted touching at a beer festival.  Is that still bad?  Yes, but it’s now watered down now because people, made it into something it wasn’t. 

Like this under age student thing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

When someone says "groping" what comes to mind to you?

Your sergeant could be charged with assault IAW 265 (1).

I'm not surprised the specifics of what went down were never disclosed, Trudeau has no shortage of people ready to dismiss any wrongs he does and I suspect downplaying sexual assault would be right up there (edit-not suggesting this is you)




> His opponents make things bigger than they are


If your partner came up to you and said someone at work was groping them would you suggest the person was just being inappropriate? And it's just like the sergeant at your work putting their hand on someones back? I doubt it.


----------



## Remius (27 Jul 2022)

Again. Missing the point. 

If you say sexual assault people think the worst.  Like rape. 

Unwanted touching, as bad as it is, is not rape.  

When this initially broke people made it sound like he raped her.  So when more details come out from third parties and second hand accounts it minimisée the situation because people didn’t have their facts straight.  

Keep in mind we are talking about the court of public opinion here. Nothing has been tested in court, at all.  

In the court of public opinion people can believe or not believe whatever they want.


----------



## TacticalTea (27 Jul 2022)

Look I want Trudeau gone as much as the next guy, but you're stretching it by a mile there, @Jarnhamar.

Remius' point about the deflated public interest notwithstanding, there's not a whole lot scandalous about unwanted touching in the first place. If you flirt with someone, at some point you're gonna get there, and since no one can read others' minds, you might or might not find out it was a mistake. Was it strictly speaking ''unwanted touching''? Sure.

That does not make it criminal behaviour. There's always two components to the latter. _Actus reus _vs _Mens rea_.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jul 2022)

Groping someone seems to fit the definition of sexual assault in Canada to me. If someone familiar with the legal system tells me I'm wrong then I'm just wrong.


*Man charged with sexual assault after 2 women groped in downtown Vancouver* 


> Police have arrested a 23-year-old man and * charged him with two counts of sexual assault after two women were groped* in downtown Vancouver.
> 
> The first victim, 29, said she was sexually assaulted by a stranger outside the Vancouver Art Gallery on Saturday. She called 911 right away.
> 
> Minutes later, a 24-year-old woman said she, too, was groped, while walking near West Georgia and Thurlow streets. A witness called 911 and followed the suspect from a distance, the Vancouver Police Department said Monday.











						Man charged with sexual assault after 2 women groped in downtown Vancouver - BC | Globalnews.ca
					

The first victim, 29, said she was sexually assaulted by a stranger outside the Vancouver Art Gallery on Saturday. She called 911 right away.




					globalnews.ca
				







I agree 100% about the Conservatives habit of blowing everything out of proportion. It detracts from real issues. It's so stupid of the Conservative PR engine I often wonder if it's done on purpose.


----------



## QV (27 Jul 2022)

This country quite deserves Trudeau right now. I mean I hope that changes, but... it could actually get worse (_cough Freeland_).


----------



## YZT580 (27 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> This country quite deserves Trudeau right now. I mean I hope that changes, but... it could actually get worse (_cough Freeland_).


Too true.  Read Jordan Peterson in the National Post either today or yesterday for confirmation of that and where it is leading us.  I'd copy it in but I only have an unattributed copy.


----------



## TacticalTea (27 Jul 2022)

QV said:


> This country quite deserves Trudeau right now. I mean I hope that changes, but... it could actually get worse (_cough Freeland_).


How is she worse, in your view?


----------



## QV (28 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> How is she worse, in your view?


She will be worse in so far as many voters will mistakenly believe her direction for this country will be different, an improvement, from Trudeau‘s. She is just going to carry on this train wreck under a new fresh face. Her barely disguised glee for freezing citizen’s bank accounts earlier this year ought to be a giant warning.


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Jul 2022)

It would be nice to see a Liberal who wants to drag the party closer to the center.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (28 Jul 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It would be nice to see a Liberal who wants to drag the party closer to the center.


It would also be nice to see a Conservative that would like to do the same. 

Canadians are for the most part a moderate group. To think otherwise is folly.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Jul 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It would be nice to see a Liberal who wants to drag the party closer to the center  reality.



There, FTFY


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> oh here is where you can start and go down the rabbit hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They managed to miss this story ....








						Buffalo Grocery Store Mass Shooting Suspect Pleads Not Guilty to Hate Crime and Federal Weapons Charges
					

The man accused of killing 10 Black people at an upstate New York grocery store in May has pleaded not guilty to federal hate crime and weapons charges.




					lawandcrime.com
				




... so I'll now put this in the same category as Russia Today.  Buffalo Chronicle - the outlet that manages to chronicle everything BUT what happens in Buffalo


----------



## Spencer100 (29 Jul 2022)

Liberals withhold funds to Hockey Canada


The Bread Guy said:


> They managed to miss this story ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did mean to imply take it with a grain of salt.

But my position is there are unanswered questions and some smoke on this one.  So........I do believe we will never know the truth here.  

But if things like this start coming out in the paid for media the Liberals may have the knives out.  

One of my biggest surprises is that Trudeau team has done a great of keep the Liberal backroom and others from Game of Throning him.  People forget the Martin/Chretien wars of the 90's.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> ... But if things like this start coming out in the paid for media the Liberals may have the knives out.


Well, MSM didn't under-cover the WE stuff, so it's a start.


Spencer100 said:


> ... One of my biggest surprises is that Trudeau team has done a great of keep the Liberal backroom and others from Game of Throning him ...


So far (or that we've seen) - I still wouldn't put it past some.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Well, MSM didn't under-cover the WE stuff, so it's a start.
> 
> So far (or that we've seen) - I still wouldn't put it past some.


I think he’s told the powers that be that he isn’t running next time.  Probably why the knives are sheathed at this time.


----------



## Spencer100 (29 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> I think he’s told the powers that be that he isn’t running next time.  Probably why the knives are sheathed at this time.


You are most likely right. He told them or they told him.  But doesn't really matter.

He may have a problem Boris may beat him to his dream job.  








						Johnson tipped to become next secretary general of Nato
					

Boris is thought to have the support of the US and the Baltic states, but might struggle to convince France to vote in favour of him.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> You are most likely right. He told them or they told him.  But doesn't really matter.
> 
> He may have a problem Boris may beat him to his dream job.
> 
> ...


But is NATO SecGen PMJT's *dream* job, honestly.  Maybe more like this would be to his liking. Not that he has the "right stuff" by any means, but this is something I picture him jones-ing for more than NATO supremo.


----------



## Haggis (29 Jul 2022)

I don't know where people are getting the impression that he won't run again. He's already stated he would and he still has to out-reign his dad (~15 years) to cement his legacy.


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> I don't know where people are getting the impression that he won't run again. He's already stated he would and he still has to out-reign his dad (~15 years) to cement his legacy.


My _sense_ - based on nothing but "gut feel" - is that:

1. He wants to run again -_ I think_ that_* he thinks*_ that he is, actually, on the right side of both the big issues and history ... some, even many, may beg to differ; and

2. The_ Liberal Party_ is so deeply divided about who might succeed him as to be unable to act coherently.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> I don't know where people are getting the impression that he won't run again. He's already stated he would and he still has to out-reign his dad (~15 years) to cement his legacy.


Words, careful words were spoken.  All he said is he would be around for the next election.  

I think his last election gamble for a majority didn’t materialize.  He’s made an arrangement with the NDP to cement his legacy and he’s pretty much on that tour.   

His little trip to Tofino was probably his version of his walk in the snow.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jul 2022)

I think calls that he isn't running again is just wishful thinking.

Why wouldn't he run again? He's untouchable, gets to fly around and play dress up, gets to run shoulders with important people, gets to do favors for his friends and family.

It's an easy $380K a year.


----------



## Haggis (29 Jul 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> My _sense_ - based on nothing but "gut feel" - is that:
> 
> 1. He wants to run again -_ I think_ that_* he thinks*_ that he is, actually, on the right side of both the big issues and history ... some, even many, may beg to differ; and
> 
> 2. The_ Liberal Party_ is so deeply divided about who might succeed him as to be unable to act coherently.


I still believe that today's Trudeau-led  Liberal Party is closer to a personality cult than a political party. I also beleive that sacking JWR and Philpot was a sign to those who would oppose him that they should have an exit strategy from politics in place and an updated résumé in hand.


----------



## Haggis (29 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Words, careful words were spoken.  All he said is he would be around for the next election.


His seat is safely Red.

Singh is the most likely political figure to knife Le Dauphin and force an early election.


Remius said:


> His little trip to Tofino was probably his version of his walk in the snow.


Outside of a few enraged pundits, nobody cared. That's already been forgotten and his recent sojourn into apologyland with His Holiness has made amends for Tofino with most voters.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think calls that he isn't running again is just wishful thinking.
> 
> Why wouldn't he run again? He's untouchable, gets to fly around and play dress up, gets to run shoulders with important people, gets to do favors for his friends and family.
> 
> It's an easy $380K a year.


And he can make much more on the speaking circuit. 

I guess we’ll see.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> His seat is safely Red.
> 
> Singh is the most likely political figure to knife Le Dauphin and force an early election.
> 
> Outside of a few enraged pundits, nobody cared. That's already been forgotten and his recent sojourn into apologyland with His Holiness has made amends for Tofino with most voters.


His seat is irrelevant.  The fact that nobody cared is also irrelevant.  He had a hissy fit and convinced himself that Canada does not deserve him so he’ll walk when the time is right.  

He has two minorities in a row.  To him that is likely rejection and I doubt he wants that again.  I do agree that he probably WANTS a to run but I doubt he will. 

All speculation on my part but we’ll see.


----------



## Furniture (29 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> And he can make much more on the speaking circuit.
> 
> I guess we’ll see.


He already has money, being PM means money and power.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Sure.  But more than power he wants to be liked.  People are liking him less and less.


----------



## Haggis (29 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> His seat is irrelevant.  The fact that nobody cared is also irrelevant.  He had a hissy fit and convinced himself that Canada does not deserve him so he’ll walk when the time is right.


He has regular hissy fits.


Remius said:


> He has two minorities in a row.  To him that is likely rejection and I doubt he wants that again.  I do agree that he probably WANTS a to run but I doubt he will.


He thinks his celebrity is an enabler for success at the polls. He is, by far, the most charismatic of the federal leaders and CPC leadership hopefuls and he presents well publicly when well prepared and given a script.

I think he also knows that his employment prospects once he leaves 24 Sussex will be non-existent internationally and limited domestically.


Remius said:


> All speculation on my part but we’ll see.


What I could see him doing is stepping aside to let one of his minions lose the next election.  Then, within a couple of  years, return to lead Team Red triumphantly to another majority.


----------



## Furniture (29 Jul 2022)

Remius said:


> Sure.  But more than power he wants to be liked.  People are liking him less and less.


You don't intentionally sow division(wedge politics) if you want to be liked, you do that to be in power and have influence. As long as the right people like him, he is more than happy to be disliked by the people he considers beneath him.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Like I said, I guess we’ll see.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> I don't know where people are getting the impression that he won't run again. He's already stated he would ...


... said more than one politician RIGHT up to the moment they said they wanted to spend more time with their family.  Never say never ...


Haggis said:


> What I could see him doing is stepping aside to let one of his minions lose the next election.  Then, within a couple of  years, return to lead Team Red triumphantly to another majority.


THIS I like ....


----------



## Haggis (29 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... said more than one politician RIGHT up to the moment they said they wanted to spend more time with their family.  Never say never ...


I don't think his ego would allow him to step down.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> I don't think his ego would allow him to step down.


I think it’s his ego that will lol. 

At least we all agree on the ego part lol


----------



## RangerRay (29 Jul 2022)

Haggis said:


> I don't think his ego would allow him to step down.


I think he wants to spank Pollievre badly.


----------



## TacticalTea (30 Jul 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I think he wants to spank Pollievre badly.


I kinda would too. 

The CPC is at record numbers though, so PP might win.

Would be interesting to see if he can form government with the PPC or Bloc if necessary.


----------



## brihard (30 Jul 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I kinda would too.
> 
> The CPC is at record numbers though, so PP might win.
> 
> Would be interesting to see if he can form government with the PPC or Bloc if necessary.


Uhh… PPC would need to be capable of winning a seat to be relevant to this. They aren’t.


----------



## Furniture (30 Jul 2022)

brihard said:


> Uhh… PPC would need to be capable of winning a seat to be relevant to this. They aren’t.


They weren't... Canada in 2022 isn't Canada in 2021. 

Long gone is the optimist of a bright post-COVID future. In today's politics a PPC that can be disciplined enough to stick to financial issues could be a king maker.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (30 Jul 2022)

Furniture said:


> They weren't... Canada in 2022 isn't Canada in 2021.
> 
> Long gone is the optimist of a bright post-COVID future. In today's politics a PPC that can be disciplined enough to stick to financial issues could be a king maker.


Or a crown loser if they manage the split the vote enough to keep the CPC out of a few seats without actually gaining any.


----------



## Remius (30 Jul 2022)

In any scenario with Pierre Poilievre as leader of the CPC, the PPC lose votes.  They won’t be king maker.


----------



## brihard (30 Jul 2022)

Furniture said:


> They weren't... Canada in 2022 isn't Canada in 2021.
> 
> Long gone is the optimist of a bright post-COVID future. In today's politics a PPC that can be disciplined enough to stick to financial issues could be a king maker.


You’re completely in the realm of fantasy here. PPC weren’t remotely close to taking any seats, and we solid single digits in nearly all of the ones they ran in. They had a mild vote splitting effect, potentially making the difference in up to twelve seats where CPC came second by fewer votes than PPC won. It’s a safe bet that most (certainly not all) of the votes PPC took would have most likely gone CPC but for them. But that is the best PPC can claim- they cost the Conservatives some seats without ever approach viability themselves.

CPC are, at best, a pressure release balance to help bleed the CPC of some of its most aggravating crazies. They didn’t impact enough seats to change the balance of power or the overall result in the last two parliaments. Any major growth in their support going forward, however, would undoubtedly be mostly at the CPC’s expense. A PPC growth could be the route to a Liberal majority, by splitting the vote enough for LPC to take seats they’d otherwise have lost by a narrow margin, or even perhaps had no real chance at winning.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jul 2022)

'Unsure' leads in the polls...

'The proportion of Canadians who are unsure who they would prefer as Prime Minister has hit a three year high. Trudeau is in second behind unsure and has been recently trending down.' Nik Nanos





			https://nanos.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Political-Package-2022-07-22-with-tabs.pptx.pdf


----------



## Blackadder1916 (30 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Unsure' leads in the polls...
> 
> 'The proportion of Canadians who are unsure who they would prefer as Prime Minister has hit a three year high. Trudeau is in second behind unsure and has been recently trending down.' Nik Nanos
> 
> ...



However, Nanos' quip is out of context.  His weekly tracking report does not include the CPC leadership candidates in the mix.  The choice presented as the CPC leader in their data is Bergen, the current interim leader.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jul 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> However, Nanos' quip is out of context.  His weekly tracking report does not include the CPC leadership candidates in the mix.  The choice presented as the CPC leader in their data is Bergen, the current interim leader.



His comments on CTV this morning suggested that the CPC share will increase as soon as they decide on their leader as they're already doing OK with Bergen just 'keeping the seat warm'.

One can only hope... FFS.


----------



## TacticalTea (30 Jul 2022)

Record low approval for PMJT, 51% negative opinion.
Trudeau at -20, PP -7, Charest -5

Given all three are very well known, name recognition is probably baked in already. Thus, it looks like the Tories are well placed to win the next election, no matter which one takes the helm.


----------



## torg003 (30 Jul 2022)

Gee, not much of a surprise.  The usual way things tend to go, is that the voting public tend to get tired of a gov't that's been in power for a couple of terms and votes in the other party next election.  Rinse and repeat.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Jul 2022)

torg003 said:


> Gee, not much of a surprise.  The usual way things tend to go, is that the voting public tend to get tired of a gov't that's been in power for a couple of terms and votes in the other party next election.  Rinse and repeat.


we can hope


----------



## torg003 (31 Jul 2022)

People are tired of the Libs, but the Tories could still fuck things up and lose the next election.  Nothing is guaranteed.


----------



## Kilted (1 Aug 2022)

Haggis said:


> What I could see him doing is stepping aside to let one of his minions lose the next election.  Then, within a couple of  years, return to lead Team Red triumphantly to another majority.


That is essentially what Peter MacKay did, although, it didn't work out for him.


----------



## Kilted (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> I think he’s told the powers that be that he isn’t running next time.  Probably why the knives are sheathed at this time.


Except that that is not really how it works in Canada. We have a minority government, meaning that in theory the election could come at any time, meaning that he as the leader of the Liberal Party would be running again. If this Liberal-NDP deal magically holds out till 2025 we might see him stepping down about six months before the election. So maybe we will see the deal magically disappear and an election call in early 2024?

Either way, it is important to remember that the sitting Prime Minister has run in every Canadian election since confederation.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

Kilted said:


> Except that that is not really how it works in Canada. We have a minority government, meaning that in theory the election could come at any time, meaning that he as the leader of the Liberal Party would be running again. If this Liberal-NDP deal magically holds out till 2025 we might see him stepping down about six months before the election. So maybe we will see the deal magically disappear and an election call in early 2024?
> 
> Either way, it is important to remember that the sitting Prime Minister has run in every Canadian election since confederation.


It’s much more complicated than “he’s in a minority therefore he’s running” in this situation.  He can step down at anytime and pass the reins when ever he so chooses given his current arrangement.  That is exactly how it can work. 

Can his deal be scuttled and we end up in an election he has to run in?  Sure.  But the NDP are far too comfortable with this deal.  Trudeau wanted a majority to cement his legacy.  He tried and Canadians refused to give it to him so he has the next best thing.  He’s in a minority situation and able to govern as a majority.  

I won’t repeat ad nauseam again why I think he won’t run.  But I could see an announcement in early 2023 and either a coronation or a one sided short leadership campaign.  Then the new leader arranges an engineered election “ie the new leader wants a new mandate or something like that” but not before he or she has had time to make their name known enough and that the conditions are right. 

Your last point is noted though.  But trudeau wouldn’t have to be the sitting PM at that time.  Brian Mulroney stepped down and didn’t run.  I’m sure that Trudeau would be more than happy to remain undefeated. 

But, this is just theory crafting at this point in my part.  If I get it wrong I get it wrong.


----------



## Kilted (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s much more complicated than “he’s in a minority therefore he’s running” in this situation.  He can step down at anytime and pass the reins when ever he so chooses given his current arrangement.  That is exactly how it can work.
> 
> Can his deal be scuttled and we end up in an election he has to run in?  Sure.  But the NDP are far too comfortable with this deal.  Trudeau wanted a majority to cement his legacy.  He tried and Canadians refused to give it to him so he has the next best thing.  He’s in a minority situation and able to govern as a majority.
> 
> ...


No, Kim Campbell, the sitting Prime Minister ran in the election.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

Kilted said:


> No, Kim Campbell, the sitting Prime Minister ran in the election.


After Mulroney stepped down.  Of course every sitting PM runs.  I didn’t argue that point. 

You are missing the part where I said Trudeau won’t be the sitting PM when next election happens.


----------



## GR66 (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s much more complicated than “he’s in a minority therefore he’s running” in this situation.  He can step down at anytime and pass the reins when ever he so chooses given his current arrangement.  That is exactly how it can work.
> 
> Can his deal be scuttled and we end up in an election he has to run in?  Sure.  But the NDP are far too comfortable with this deal.  Trudeau wanted a majority to cement his legacy.  He tried and Canadians refused to give it to him so he has the next best thing.  He’s in a minority situation and able to govern as a majority.
> 
> ...


Maybe if Singh and the NDP were smart they'd see the Conservatives choosing an unpopular leader and the Liberals sitting with an unpopular Trudeau and decide that they should force an election while they have the best chance of maintaining their seats...or even gaining a couple.

Why give the Liberals a chance to put a more popular leader in place giving a place for the anti-Trudeau middle to put their votes?  If people are tired of Trudeau and PP isn't trusted by the voters in the middle then the NDP could get the disaffected moderate votes.  If the NDP however lets the Liberals put a more popular leader in place then many of those votes could go Liberal instead.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

I think Singh has realised he will never be PM and his party will only get things done when they have the balance of power with liberal government in power.  They will never work with a CPC government and certainly not one with PP at the helm. 

The thing is that there won’t be a more “popular” leader running.  Seemingly competent?  Remains to be seen.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s much more complicated than “he’s in a minority therefore he’s running” in this situation.  He can step down at anytime and pass the reins when ever he so chooses given his current arrangement.  That is exactly how it can work.
> 
> 
> Your last point is noted though.  But trudeau wouldn’t have to be the sitting PM at that time.  Brian Mulroney stepped down and didn’t run.  I’m sure that Trudeau would be more than happy to remain undefeated.


Is this correct? Will there not have to be a leadership election/convention at least in theory? Was Kim Campbell not elected/chosen by the PC's as Mulroney's succesor?

To me for Trudeau to do to his successor what Mulroney did to Campbell would taint his "legacy" and put the Liberals in a bad position likely for 2 elections.

I think he runs again as he is the Liberals best hope to continue in government. To retain the PM/government all the Liberals have to do is limit the CPC to a non majority. The CPC isn't forming a minority government in this era unless they approach 170 seats. There is no Jack Layton to weaken the Liberal count or for that manner even a viable Green Party to siphon off protest votes.

If the housing market doesn't crash and/or economy tank and thats a big if then I believe Trudeau will be PM again


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Is this correct? Will there not have to be a leadership election/convention at least in theory? Was Kim Campbell not elected/chosen by the PC's as Mulroney's succesor?
> 
> To me for Trudeau to do to his successor what Mulroney did to Campbell would taint his "legacy" and put the Liberals in a bad position likely for 2 elections.
> 
> ...


 Not I was suggesting.  If you read back a bit I see him announcing his intention to step down after either a coronation or relatively easy leadership race.  He hands it off.  The new leader governs for say 6 months then engineers an election at a time of their choosing. 

Good points about the CPC but I suspect that Trudeau is now a liability for the LPC.  There is enough depth on the LPC bench to run a new leader I think.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

Here's a story about Canadians being shitty.

A PEI pub's staff took pictures with Trudeau when he visited. When they posted the pictures on Facebook they immediately received a backlash of negative comments and threats from Canadians. The pub took the pictures down but the abuse continued, including having one of their delivery vans damaged. Terrible behavior.


Typically, Team Trudeau (MP Heath MacDonald in this case) blames right-wing extremism. 

Is the message here that any Anti-Trudeau sentiment has to be right-wing extremists? Is it possible the people behaving shitty towards this pub are just Canadians fed up with Trudeau and not having a more productive or intelligent way of showing it?


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Aug 2022)

Canadians are fed up with leaders who are just people who were born with a running start in life and do a lot to protect the positions of themselves and their peers.


----------



## suffolkowner (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Not I was suggesting.  If you read back a bit I see him announcing his intention to step down after either a coronation or relatively easy leadership race.  He hands it off.  The new leader governs for say 6 months then engineers an election at a time of their choosing.
> 
> Good points about the CPC but I suspect that Trudeau is now a liability for the LPC.  There is enough depth on the LPC bench to run a new leader I think.


Ok I understand better. Still to me he/they better get hopping 2.5 yrs goes by pretty quick and other than Chrystia Freeland and Mark Carney I dont have an idea who would be the front runner and what the party membership would favour. 

I still think the temptation to win a 4th term and beat PP would be great. I just think how disturbed my conservative friends would be by a Pierre Polievre defeat would be and how potentially disastrous it would be to the CPC party


----------



## RangerRay (1 Aug 2022)

GR66 said:


> If people are tired of Trudeau and PP isn't trusted by the voters in the middle then the NDP could get the disaffected moderate votes.  If the NDP however lets the Liberals put a more popular leader in place then many of those votes could go Liberal instead.


I can’t ever see the NDP appealing to moderates, at least not at the federal level. They constantly attempt to appeal to the left fringe of the Liberals, even when the Liberals are appealing to soft NDP support.


----------



## TacticalTea (1 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I can’t ever see the NDP appealing to moderates, at least not at the federal level. They constantly attempt to appeal to the left fringe of the Liberals, even when the Liberals are appealing to soft NDP support.


Not at this time, for sure. Back under Layton? Yeah probably. He was great and left us too soon.

At this point, as Remius indicated, Singh is in about the same position as Trudeau: knows it's only downhill from here, thus attempting to cement their legacy before time runs out.

It would be in Canada's best interest to see both replaced.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Not at this time, for sure. Back under Layton? Yeah probably. He was great and left us too soon.
> 
> At this point, as Remius indicated, Singh is in about the same position as Trudeau: knows it's only downhill from here, thus attempting to cement their legacy before time runs out.
> 
> It would be in Canada's best interest to see both replaced.


Except Layton sold himself short, trying to position himself as where ABC should park their vote. What the NDP should do is go after the Liberals hard for their hypocrisy and internal contradictions. When they attack the Tories, leftists get scared and vote Liberal as the “sure thing” against the Tories. 

Harper tried to destroy the Liberals, making it a binary choice between Conservatives and NDP. Problem was, Layton didn’t see that and played the same card the NDP always had. What helped them in 2011 was an ineffective Liberal leader and an ineffective Bloq.


----------



## Furniture (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Typically, Team Trudeau (MP Heath MacDonald in this case) blames right-wing extremism.
> 
> Is the message here that any Anti-Trudeau sentiment has to be right-wing extremists? Is it possible the people behaving shitty towards this pub are just Canadians fed up with Trudeau and not having a more productive or intelligent way of showing it?



I can understand people going after the business online, it's been normalized over the course of the last several years by both sides doing the same thing elsewhere in Canada and the US. In Ottawa people were trying to ruin the businesses that supported the convoy when it first arrived. It's not right, but it is predictable...


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Aug 2022)

Layton was playing a long game to squeeze out the LPC between the NDP and CPC.  Did well in one federal election, led the LPC under Dion into an almost successful bid to form a coalition.  Probably would not have panicked like Mulcair did if tolerating another CPC minority would have furthered the destruction of the LPC.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

Trudeau has been a busy bee last month.

120 metric tonnes of carbon dioxide into the environment, ouch.

Prime minister spent all but 11 days last month in the air ​


> OTTAWA — As the prime minister and his family kick off August with a two-week Costa Rica vacation, he leaves behind a July with more time spent in the air than he did during the entirety of last summer — including a 5,500 km flight to spend six hours at the Calgary Stampede.
> 
> Data collected from online flight tracker websites show Justin Trudeau spent all but 11 days of July aboard CANFORCE ONE, flying a total of 26,238 km across 20 flights, all within Canada.
> 
> That’s compared to 26,059 km flown between June 1 and Aug. 31, 2021 — including last summer’s G7 summit in the U.K., as well as the June 13-15 NATO summit in Belgium.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau has been a busy bee last month.
> 
> 120 metric tonnes of carbon dioxide into the environment, ouch.
> 
> Prime minister spent all but 11 days last month in the air​


Like I said.  He’s on his legacy tour.  He’s more popular abroad than at home.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Like I said.  He’s on his legacy tour.  *He’s more popular abroad than at home.*


Possible, but all those 26,000KMs flying & burning fossile fuel were spent inside Canada.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Possible, but all those 26,000KMs flying & burning fossile fuel were spent inside Canada.


I wonder how much of that was following the pope lol


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Possible, but all those 26,000KMs flying & burning fossile fuel were spent inside Canada.



Rules for thee but not for me


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> I wonder how much of that was following the pope lol


Equilivant of flying 3 times around the planet. Maybe the Pope was hiding evidence all over Canada and the PM was going behind him and collecting it.

On the bright side it looks like Trudeau may have finally learned a lesson or two. I'm reading he checked with the ethics commissioner _ before_ going on vacation just to make sure he wasn't breaking any rules.


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Equilivant of flying 3 times around the planet. Maybe the Pope was hiding evidence all over Canada and the PM was going behind him and collecting it.
> 
> On the bright side it looks like Trudeau may have finally learned a lesson or two. I'm reading he checked with the ethics commissioner _ before_ going on vacation just to make sure he wasn't breaking any rules.


Canada is a big place.  Ottawa to Edmonton is what 3500Kms one way?  So 7000kms just for that.  Then Ottawa to Quebec another 1000km.  Looking at his schedule he took a trip to PEI.  And another one to Kamloops.  I did not peruse the whole thing though. He’s in Costa Rica right now. Looks like vacation time.

I Pretty much logged more than 26000kms of flight time in a month for work.  Doesn’t take long to accumulate with a few cross country flights.


----------



## RangerRay (1 Aug 2022)

Another reason why I think Trudeau isn’t going anywhere. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553382440454049793


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Another reason why I think Trudeau isn’t going anywhere.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1553382440454049793


A fair point.


----------



## YZT580 (1 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> A fair point.


I wouldn't consider Warren capable of providing an unbiased view.  My best guess is that they will either support their local person or simply abstain.  Singh has already given them the motivation: why vote at all when your party is only going to side with the libs anyway


----------



## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

YZT580 said:


> I wouldn't consider Warren capable of providing an unbiased view.  My best guess is that they will either support their local person or simply abstain.  Singh has already given them the motivation: why vote at all when your party is only going to side with the libs anyway


The NDP a have shown the ability and will to strategically vote.  Warren Kinsella is no fan of Trudeau but even he can see that it might be a possibility if PP becomes leader.


----------



## TacticalTea (1 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Equilivant of flying 3 times around the planet


Huh? The planet is 21600 NM around... 26Mm is about... half of that.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (2 Aug 2022)

Stick to Kilometres, Tactical: Planet = 40,000 Km  - Trudeau = 26,000 Km. Barelly more than half around the planet in the world's second largest country. No big deal.

The other way the article exagerates: Time in the air "All but eleven day" !!!  If you divide the distance run by the average speed of Chalenger/Polaris, including take off and landing, he may have been "in the air" for about 48 hours. That's hardly near the twenty days the author makes it sound like. Just because you fly on one given day doesn't mean you spent the whole day in the air or flying (especially when you consider that the PM doesn't have to be at the airport five hours before hand or wait for 12 hours to get his luggage at the other end).

I am no fan of  Trudeau, but that is a terrible article and a completely biased presentation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Huh? The planet is 21600 NM around... 26Mm is about... half of that.


You caught me just quoting the article.
It's 21600 NM at the equator. I'm guessing their math was starting in Canada and flying over Europe and Asia, landing back in Canada?  That would be shorter than following the equator.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> I am no fan of  Trudeau, but that is a terrible article and a completely biased presentation.



Flying back and forth cross country to "plant trees" and do photo ops (minus the pope stuff) when preaching climate change so hard seems a little hypocritical to me but I'll conceded, it's still a weak and biased article.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Flying back and forth cross country to "plant trees" and do photo ops (minus the pope stuff) when preaching climate change so hard seems a little hypocritical to me but I'll conceded, it's still a weak and biased article.


Problem is that if he takes the train everywhere he goes, people'll complain "why the hell isn't he in Ottawa working?!?!"


----------



## YZT580 (2 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Problem is that if he takes the train everywhere he goes, people'll complain "why the hell isn't he in Ottawa working?!?!"


Can't do that 'cause the train don't run here anymore.  I do hope though that he is using the challengers more than the Polaris


----------



## brihard (2 Aug 2022)

I find any of the discourse around “what does he _do?_” or how much the PM travels pretty silly. This is not defence of Trudeau; _any_ PM has a super crappy job, is basically always in the loop and on the clock, constantly travelling, and cramming bits of disparate work and decision making into every two minute gap. There’s a reason they have drivers, fly direct in an RCAF jet, etc. you can be sure that even on ‘vacation’ there will be frequent interruptions and issues. Same for Harper, or Martin, or Mulroney. They’re constantly bouncing around because there are endless things needing doing and commanding their attention.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> I find any of the discourse around “what does he _do?_” or how much the PM travels pretty silly. This is not defence of Trudeau; _any_ PM has a super crappy job, is basically always in the loop and on the clock, constantly travelling, and cramming bits of disparate work and decision making into every two minute gap. There’s a reason they have drivers, fly direct in an RCAF jet, etc. you can be sure that even on ‘vacation’ there will be frequent interruptions and issues. Same for Harper, or Martin, or Mulroney. They’re constantly bouncing around because there are endless things needing doing and commanding their attention.



Yes. Like spending time travelling on reconcili-vacations....


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Can't do that 'cause the train don't run here anymore.  I do hope though that he is using the challengers more than the Polaris


VERY true that, but he could get from larger centres to other larger centres - and given VIA's long-rationalized routing (away from the north shore of Lake Superior), he could hit Sioux Lookout at o-dark-30 if he wanted


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> I find any of the discourse around “what does he _do?_” or how much the PM travels pretty silly. This is not defence of Trudeau; _any_ PM has a super crappy job, is basically always in the loop and on the clock, constantly travelling, and cramming bits of disparate work and decision making into every two minute gap. There’s a reason they have drivers, fly direct in an RCAF jet, etc. you can be sure that even on ‘vacation’ there will be frequent interruptions and issues. Same for Harper, or Martin, or Mulroney. They’re constantly bouncing around because there are endless things needing doing and commanding their attention.


I'm sure you'll see this rationale cut/pasted by those now criticizing current management when they respond to those who may have similar concerns about future Team Blue management


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Aug 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Can't do that 'cause the train don't run here anymore.  I do hope though that he is using the challengers more than the Polaris


He could always rent the train 😉



			https://www.royalcanadianpacific.com/
		


This seems to be more in line with the current leadership's tastes anyways 😁


----------



## QV (2 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> I'm sure you'll see this rationale cut/pasted by those now criticizing current management when they respond to those who may have similar concerns about future Team Blue management



I doubt it. Trudeau gets extra criticism because he and his supporters are giant hypocrites. He wants to price you out of your bad habits (anything that involves pollution) while he galivants to Costa Rica or Whistler spewing more pollution than a medium sized city does in a year, just to ski or surf.


----------



## TacticalTea (2 Aug 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Stick to Kilometres, Tactical:


Clearly, I REALLY did not want to use filthy kilometres!


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Aug 2022)

QV said:


> I doubt it. Trudeau gets extra criticism because he and his supporters are giant hypocrites. He wants to price you out of your bad habits (anything that involves pollution) while he galivants to Costa Rica or Whistler spewing more pollution than a medium sized city does in a year, just to ski or surf.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Aug 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> View attachment 72321


It's What Z Germans are doing atm 😄


----------



## Kilted (2 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Clearly, I REALLY did not want to use filthy kilometres!


Maybe if the Navy used kilometers they wouldn't crash into each other so often.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2022)

brihard said:


> I find any of the discourse around “what does he _do?_” or how much the PM travels pretty silly.



For the most part I agree. People are going to pick politicians apart for the smallest hint of a-ha!. And usually it's something silly like making a big deal when someone takes a vacation. Everyone deserves time off and the PM is busy. Politicians generally are. 

Trudeau has pushed hard on climate change, oil and gas, and other travel related issues. He isn't shy about criticizing Canadians. His travel plans shouldn't be beyond reproach, especially if he's traveling for frivolous reasons.

Constant criticisms can be obnoxious but it also holds people accountable, even if just a little. Case in point Trudeau checking with the ethics commissioner before going on vacation.


----------



## Remius (2 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> For the most part I agree. People are going to pick politicians apart for the smallest hint of a-ha!. And usually it's something silly like making a big deal when someone takes a vacation. Everyone deserves time off and the PM is busy. Politicians generally are.
> 
> Trudeau has pushed hard on climate change, oil and gas, and other travel related issues. He isn't shy about criticizing Canadians. His travel plans shouldn't be beyond reproach, especially if he's traveling for frivolous reasons.
> 
> Constant criticisms can be obnoxious but it also holds people accountable, even if just a little. Case in point Trudeau checking with the ethics commissioner before going on vacation.


Not much we can do about travel.  I would take issue with him burning tires in his yard or dumping waste into the Ottawa river more than bemoan his travelling.

I take issue with pontification on other things though.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Not much we can do about travel.


Against Trudeau? No. But look at Ontario Finance Minister Rod Phillips. Posting a video of him by the fire thanking people for staying home during the holidays and covid. Mean while he was in the Caribbean- forced to resign.

An extreme case but travel can be contentious depending on the situation. If Trudeau starts posting videos of his vacation and people stuck dealing with Air Canada's on-going disaster watch it could cost him votes.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (2 Aug 2022)

I think the problem is that he extols virtues he himself does not adhere to. Be it environmentalism, transparency, ethical conduct, feminism, inclusion; he has demonstrated those values are flexible in the face of convenience. 

Part of the problem we have in this country with political skepticism is because the leaders and politicians we have in office have less integrity than politicians of yore. 

All well and good we need to save the earth, however, my taking the bus will have the same affect on climate change as pissing on a forest fire. My Liberal MP, however, is more than happy to not take DuPont or Invista to task for dumping industrial run off into the Harbour... because... Jobs.

Doublethink is not very good at fostering voter confidence


----------



## Navy_Pete (2 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I think the problem is that he extols virtues he himself does not adhere to. Be it environmentalism, transparency, ethical conduct, feminism, inclusion; he has demonstrated those values are flexible in the face of convenience.
> 
> Part of the problem we have in this country with political skepticism is because the leaders and politicians we have in office have less integrity than politicians of yore.
> 
> ...


I really don't see much different from any of the other politicians though, the sucessful ones say what they think will get them elected, the ones that stick by their standards stay back benchers or don't get elected at all.


----------



## Remius (8 Aug 2022)

An article about the LPC’s chances in Quebec without Trudeau.









						André Pratte: Trudeau’s departure could cause problems for the Liberals in Quebec
					

“Will Trudeau know when the moment is right for leaving?” was the title of the analysis authored by La Presse’s Bureau Chief on Parliament Hill. In a column…




					nationalpost.com
				




Seems that I may not be alone in thinking he won’t run again…


----------



## Retired AF Guy (8 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> An article about the LPC’s chances in Quebec without Trudeau.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Warren Kinsella thinks otherwise and provides ten reasons to back up his argument:



> KINSELLA: Will Justin Trudeau seek to cement his legacy by winning a fourth election this fall?​Author of the article: Warren Kinsella
> Publishing date: Aug 07, 2022  •  3 minute read  •   323 Comments
> 
> Be afraid.
> ...



 Link


----------



## QV (8 Aug 2022)

> 2. Poilievre has one big strength: the economy. He’s been his party’s finance critic, and he’s got some Bay Street cred. More worrying, for the Liberals, is that Poilievre is starting to look like a prophet on the economic front: his criticisms of central bankers may have been right, and his laser-like focus on Trudeau’s failings fighting inflation bode well for Team Blue. Trudeau doesn’t want inflation/recession to become the ballot question. Because then he’ll lose.
> 
> 3. The economy is heading into the ditch. With the exception of jobs, every key economic indicator is presently looking grim — and jobs will too, soon enough, with inflation worse than it has been for four decades. Trudeau and Co. need to get ahead of what may be the worst economic downturn since the 2008-2009 global economic crisis.
> 
> 4. Besides: we may have slipped into a recession already. On Thursday, England’s central bank jacked interest rates to 1.75% — the biggest rate increase in many years. While such rate increases squeeze out inflation, they always risk tipping Western economies into recession. Which many economists quietly suggest we may be in already. Trudeau knows that recession isn’t conducive to re-election.



What would be truly scary is the current LPC forming government, again, after steering this country's economy into the ditch.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Aug 2022)

Trudeau and Poilievre are the “wrecking balls of Confederation”. Although I would add two nobodies, a conspiracy theorist and a retread from the 90’s who got no seats west of Winnipeg wouldn’t be great leaders either. 









						KINSELLA: Canada not immune to division and disunity that grips U.S.
					

The first thing you notice, when you cross the border into the Disunited States of America, is it basically looks the same.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Aug 2022)

Unintended Consequences - 



> Scholz is currently in Canada to talk about energy, but not about the much-needed LNG intake that could help Germany wean itself off Russian gas.
> 
> Instead, Scholz and Prime Minister Trudeau are focussing on hydrogen technology that will take decades before it will be useful. There is little evidence that this plan, set in motion long before the Russian invasion of Ukraine changed the parameters of energy policy in Europe, has been adjusted in pace or scale.











						A cacophony of crises has brought Olaf Scholz to the brink
					

The German people know tough times lie ahead – but they want action, not mere platitudes, from their chancellor




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




Lack of natural gas on the east coast to ship .... or to convert into Hydrogen to ship.



> Global sulphur shortage threatens food security and advancement of green technology, scientists warn​More intensive agriculture and the world moving away from fossil fuels in order to deal with climate change will significantly reduce the production of fossil fuels and subsequently the supply of sulphur, researchers say.











						Global sulphur shortage threatens food security and advancement of green technology, scientists warn
					

More intensive agriculture and the world moving away from fossil fuels in order to deal with climate change will significantly reduce the production of fossil fuels and subsequently the supply of sulphur, researchers say.




					news.sky.com
				






> AUGUST 22, 2022
> Sulfur shortage: A potential resource crisis looming as the world decarbonises​by University College London











						Sulfur shortage: A potential resource crisis looming as the world decarbonises
					

A projected shortage of sulfuric acid, a crucial chemical in our modern industrial society, could stifle green technology advancement and threaten global food security, according to a new study led by UCL researchers.




					phys.org
				




Lack of Natural Gas to cleanly supply sulphur from sour gas wells.  Sulphur is also harvested from oil and bitumen.



> Trudeau Spars With Farmers on Climate Plan Risking Grain Output​Canada wants to cut fertilizer emissions, but farmers say it could result in less food











						Trudeau Spars With Farmers on Climate Plan Risking Grain Output
					

Canada wants to cut fertilizer emissions, but farmers say it could result in less food




					www.bloomberg.com
				




Lack of Natural Gas to supply Anhydrous Ammonia for fertilizers.


Consequences 

Germans freeze.
Everybody starves. - No nitrogen, no sulphur, no phosphorus, no carbon dioxide.
No electric cars - No sulphuric acid for batteries.

Open cast mines to dig up sulphur along with the lithium and other rare earths.
Fertilizing fields with human excrement which is rich in nitrogen and minerals - including sulphur - and worms and parasites.









						Human sewage may be needed to fertilise crops as global sulphur shortage looms
					

Sulphur production has dwindled as a result of the global move away from fossil fuels, a new study shows




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




And in related archaeological news









						Medieval monks were 'riddled with parasites'
					

Research examining traces of parasites in medieval Cambridge residents suggests that monks were almost twice as likely as ordinary townspeople to have intestinal worms -- despite monasteries of the period typically having far more sanitary facilities.



					www.sciencedaily.com
				






> "One possibility is that the friars manured their vegetable gardens with human faeces, not unusual in the medieval period, and this may have led to repeated infection with the worms," said Mitchell.





How green is my valley?


So the next question is:  How bright are Trudeau's Spinners?  

How do they get the Canadian voters, the Liberal ones in particular, to follow him as he reverses course to return to the Green Revolution of the 1960s that has all but eliminated famine - due to science, genetics and hydrocarbons?

My guess is that Scholz is part of an opportunity if not a plan.  

If Trudeau can convince people that Hydrogen from Natural Gas is the way of the future then maybe he can build a pipeline, and refineries, in Quebec  ... and still get re-elected.

Nevermind that although the technology is proven the scale of manufacture is miniscule and storage and transportation are works in progress that may take a decade or two to solve.  

Stage one would be to build a natural gas highway to the east coast and LNG terminals.  
Stage  1A would be to build a Pilot Hydrogen refinery and storage facility to test technologies.

This would permit Natural Gas to be sold to the voter as a source of Hydrogen, as well as Sulphur and Anhydrous Ammonia necessary for producing food and batteries.  Heck, with a bit of imagination it could also be used to produce clean CO2 to be sold to farmers to enhance their crops.


One area I am familiar with is fishmeal plants.  They are plants where fish are processed into protein meals and fish oil.   In the past they were called fish oil plants.  The same technology was used on whales to produce whale oil for lamps and is used to produce lard and tallow for food.

With the advent of mineral oils the need for animal oils diminished.  The fish oil plants were no longer profitable and the supply of cheap protein, a byproduct of the oil production, dried up as they went out of business.   Those exact same plants, processing the exact same raw material, found new opportunities when the lack of protein drove the price of protein higher.  They were rebranded as meal plants and oil was the byproduct.  Cheap enough to burn as a fuel to manufacture the meal.

It is all in the marketing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Aug 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Unintended Consequences -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trudeau is a sock puppet for the Liberals, of course.

My guess is that they're throwing a 'hydrogen bone' to the (insanely green focused) German public as a way to excuse the massive uptick in Canadian hydrocarbon imports that will be required to help them survive without Russian supplies.


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Aug 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Trudeau is a sock puppet for the Liberals, of course.
> 
> My guess is that they're throwing a 'hydrogen bone' to the (insanely green focused) German public as a way to excuse the massive uptick in Canadian hydrocarbon imports that will be required to help them survive without Russian supplies.



Except that it is the German Green party that is calling for pragmatism

Their leader has been one of the loudest voices calling for Germany to ship weapons to Ukraine, support sanctions, keep nuclear power plants open, reopen domestic gas fields with fracking and even reopen coal plants to get Germany through the winter(s) without Russian gas.

And Scholz is less popular than Trudeau and Biden and may be on his way out.  The Green position has the support of about 70% of the German population.

Justin and Jacinda are increasingly fading along with Scholz.

If there is a hydrogen bone being thrown I suspect it is being thrown to Canada's Liberal greens.









						Ukraine, Climate, and Priorities | National Review
					

To classify Germany’s Greens as climate-change ‘deniers’ would be difficult, so the party’s reaction to the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been telling.




					www.nationalreview.com
				











						Germany’s nuclear opposition wavers as energy crunch fears rise
					

Green politicians are softening their stance but the party remains divided.




					www.politico.eu
				











						Germany's Greens embrace coal
					

That German politicians spoke of ‘blackmail’, ‘neo-imperialism’ and even a ‘declaration of economic war’ when confronted with Germany’s energy dependency on Russia may hardly seem surprising. But those words weren’t uttered recently, nor were they about the Russian president. They were said two...




					unherd.com
				











						Die Lage am Morgen: War's das mit Gas aus Russland?
					

Aus Russland fließt (vorerst) kein Gas mehr. Annalena Baerbock beendet eine turbulente Reise. Und in Wimbledon fehlte ein Gast. Das ist die Lage am Montag.




					www.spiegel.de
				




Germans are nothing if not pragmatic.  They have their principles.  They also have their savings and a penchant for lots of comfort food.


----------



## TacticalTea (22 Aug 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Except that it is the German Green party that is calling for pragmatism
> 
> Their leader has been one of the loudest voices calling for Germany to ship weapons to Ukraine, support sanctions, keep nuclear power plants open, reopen domestic gas fields with fracking and even reopen coal plants to get Germany through the winter(s) without Russian gas.
> 
> ...


Two minor points:

1. I don't think @daftandbarmy was talking about Germany's The Green PartyTM. I don't mean to say you didn't get that, since you did subsequently use the formula ''Canada's Liberal greens''. I'm just unsure what meaning you're assigning to ''green/greens''.

2. I wouldn't pay much for German pragmatism. They replaced nuclear with coal. And came up with Wunderwaffen.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Two minor points:
> 
> 1. I don't think @daftandbarmy was talking about Germany's The Green PartyTM. I don't mean to say you didn't get that, since you did subsequently use the formula ''Canada's Liberal greens''. I'm just unsure what meaning you're assigning to ''green/greens''.
> 
> 2. I wouldn't pay much for German pragmatism. They replaced nuclear with coal. And came up with Wunderwaffen.



Yes, Germany's 'Green Problem' is a thing espoused by all three parties vying for the support of a thoroughly Green Washed electorate:


The catch with Germany’s green transformation​Incoming government’s coalition deal foresees decarbonization of Europe’s economic engine, but that’s easier said than done.

The three parties aiming to form the next German government just announced one of the most ambitious transitions away from fossil fuels in the world.

But there’s a dirty reality to Wednesday’s headline pledges of “ideally” ending coal use by 2030, scrapping combustion engine cars by 2035 and aligning all government policies with the goal of limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees — Germany will continue to rely on natural gas and nuclear power for many years.

The coalition agreement among the Social Democratic Party (SPD), Free Democrats (FDP) and the Greens lays out the priorities for the next German government, and climate is key.









						The catch with Germany’s green transformation
					

Incoming government’s coalition deal foresees decarbonization of Europe’s economic engine, but that’s easier said than done.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Kirkhill (22 Aug 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Two minor points:
> 
> 1. I don't think @daftandbarmy was talking about Germany's The Green PartyTM. I don't mean to say you didn't get that, since you did subsequently use the formula ''Canada's Liberal greens''. I'm just unsure what meaning you're assigning to ''green/greens''.
> 
> 2. I wouldn't pay much for German pragmatism. They replaced nuclear with coal. And came up with Wunderwaffen.



Let's say that 70% of Germans are pragmatists.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2022)

> If Trudeau can convince people that Hydrogen from Natural Gas is the way of the future then maybe he can build a pipeline, and refineries, in Quebec  ... and still get re-elected.



How much energy in, and how much energy out?


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Aug 2022)

This is funny.

Feds cut funding for anti-racism project over 'vile' tweets​
Liberals hire some racist guy for an anti-racism project. $133K

Racist guy makes racist comments and gets fired.

Surprised Pikachu face Diversity Minister Ahmed Hussen "calls on CMAC, an organization claiming to fight racism and hate in Canada to answer to how they came to hire Laith Marouf, and how they plan on rectifying the situation given the nature of his antisemitic and xenophobic comments.”

Diversity Minister Ahmed Hussen doesn't realize CMAC is apparently operated by 2 people, Mr Racist and his wife.



Some gem quotes from the anti-racisim organization that the government hired.



> “You know all those loud mouthed bags of human feces, a.k.a. the Jewish White Supremacists; when we liberate Palestine and they have to go back to where they come from, they will return to being low voiced bitches of thier (sic) Christian/Secular White Supremacist Masters.”





> “Colin Powell, the Jamaican house-slave of the Empire who extinguished the lives of millions of people with his lies, died a painful death unable to breath (sic). If there was any good that came from this pandemic, it would be his death on the birthday of the prophet of Islam,”





> “I have a motto: Life is too short for shoes with laces, or for entertaining Jewish White Supremacists with anything but a bullet to the head.”





> “lol, I think Frogs have much less IQ than 77, and French is an ugly language.”


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Aug 2022)

So, GoC: convince me you don't make decisions based on names and titles that sound pleasing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This is funny.
> 
> Feds cut funding for anti-racism project over 'vile' tweets​
> Liberals hire some racist guy for an anti-racism project. $133K
> ...



Oh FFS...


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This is funny.
> 
> Feds cut funding for anti-racism project over 'vile' tweets​
> Liberals hire some racist guy for an anti-racism project. $133K
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This is funny.
> 
> Feds cut funding for anti-racism project over 'vile' tweets ...​


Un-due diligence anyone?  🤦‍♂️

Meanwhile, mini-shuffle coming ...


> ... Four sources with knowledge of the plan tell The Canadian Press the shuffle is coming at the request of Procurement Minister Filomena Tassi.  They say the Hamilton, Ont. MP asked Trudeau for a lighter workload because of a family health matter ...


----------



## QV (31 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


>



There are some people that want to give this government another term. Think about that!


----------



## ModlrMike (31 Aug 2022)




----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So, GoC: convince me you don't make decisions based on names and titles that sound pleasing.



It shows you the bar the government sets for giving out money.

$133,000,00 to a company and they didn't:
-bother checking the organization's background and history 
-do a quick OSINT check on their "CEOs" social media


No wonder there are billions of dollars that's unaccounted for.


----------



## Lumber (31 Aug 2022)

CBH99 said:


> There are some people that want to give this government another term. Think about that!


Yes. +30% of the country look at Skippy pandering to the deplorables and think better the devil they know than the devil they don't. 
Is this a surprise to you?


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Aug 2022)

Lumber said:


> Yes. +30% of the country look at Skippy pandering to the deplorables and think better the devil they know than the devil they don't.
> Is this a surprise to you?



+30% of the country shouldn't be allowed to govern anything.  That's the bigger problem 

Side question: 

Lets say the PM approaches the GG and has parliament dissolved.  What happens during that following electoral campaign if lets say a major war or something breaks out.  Can the GG recall the previous parliament ?  Hows does that work ?


----------



## rmc_wannabe (31 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> +30% of the country shouldn't be allowed to govern anything.  That's the bigger problem
> 
> Side question:
> 
> Lets say the PM approaches the GG and has parliament dissolved.  What happens during that following electoral campaign if lets say a major war or something breaks out.  Can the GG recall the previous parliament ?  Hows does that work ?


Technically, under the concept of Royal perogative, the Crown can appoint any party and its leader to form a government. Conversely, the Crown also has the Royal prerogative to refuse dissolution or prorogation if advised as such by the Privy Council and it's deemed constitutional.

A lot of people pass off the GG as a ceremonial position, however, they wield a large amount of power politically if push came to shove. It's just by luck or happenstance that we have never had to see that power exercised. 

The current political climate in Canada, and the past 6 years of turmoil south of the border are a couple of reasons I remain a staunch monarchist.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Technically, under the concept of Royal perogative, the Crown can appoint any party and its leader to form a government. Conversely, the Crown also has the Royal prerogative to refuse dissolution or prorogation if advised as such by the Privy Council and it's deemed constitutional.
> 
> A lot of people pass off the GG as a ceremonial position, however, they wield a large amount of power politically if push came to shove. It's just by luck or happenstance that we have never had to see that power exercised.
> 
> The current political climate in Canada, and the past 6 years of turmoil south of the border are a couple of reasons I remain a staunch monarchist.



My last derail. 

So in a state of national emergency during an electoral campaign the GG would likely recall/appoint the dissolved HOC/Parliament and send them to work ?


----------



## Remius (31 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> My last derail.
> 
> So in a state of national emergency during an electoral campaign the GG would likely recall/appoint the dissolved HOC/Parliament and send them to work ?








						Guidelines on the conduct of Ministers, Ministers of State, exempt staff and public servants during an election - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca
				




Mostly covered here.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (31 Aug 2022)

In an election, Parliament (or the lower house of Parliament to be precise) is dissolved. That is the legislative branch of government.

In our system there is always an executive branch in place: The Queen/GG and her privy council. Dissolution of Parliament does not terminate the PM or his "governement" (meaning all the Ministers and only the Ministers, plus the permanent government made of all the public servants), who remains in place fully capable of acting at any time during the dissolution and until the GG/Queen asks someone else to form a government, at which point a takeover occurs at the moment the new PM and Ministers are sworn in. This executive branch can act within all the Crown's prerogative (such as declaring war) and all the powers as otherwise limited by laws that are in effect. There is little the executive cannot do while Parliament is dissolved. The Conduct Guidelines mentionned above are just that: guidelines.


----------



## TacticalTea (5 Sep 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> In an election, Parliament (or the lower house of Parliament to be precise) is dissolved. That is the legislative branch of government.
> 
> In our system there is always an executive branch in place: The Queen/GG and her privy council. Dissolution of Parliament does not terminate the PM or his "governement" (meaning all the Ministers and only the Ministers, plus the permanent government made of all the public servants), who remains in place fully capable of acting at any time during the dissolution and until the GG/Queen asks someone else to form a government, at which point a takeover occurs at the moment the new PM and Ministers are sworn in. This executive branch can act within all the Crown's prerogative (such as declaring war) and all the powers as otherwise limited by laws that are in effect. There is little the executive cannot do while Parliament is dissolved. The Conduct Guidelines mentionned above are just that: guidelines.


Most recently exemplified by Trudeau's ratification of Sweden/Finland NATO accession independently of Parliament.


----------



## RangerRay (7 Sep 2022)

It’s behind a paywall, but the Toronto Red Star is reporting Trudeau has announced he’s sticking around for the next election. 









						Justin Trudeau tells cabinet he’s sticking around as leader for the next election
					

The prime minister’s future had been the topic of political guesswork in Ottawa since last fall when he led the Liberals to a third federal election victory.




					www.thestar.com
				




Looks like he wants to add Pollievre’s head to his Tory leader collection.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Sep 2022)

RangerRay said:


> It’s behind a paywall, but the Toronto Red Star is reporting Trudeau has announced he’s sticking around for the next election.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent news! Hopefully his overweening ego will drag them all down to an ignominius defeat, and their stooges in the NDP too 

*IMPRESSIONS OF PM TRUDEAU*

This survey finds 51% offering a negative view of Justin Trudeau, *which is the highest number we have recorded since 2015*.  Today 31% have a positive impression of Mr. Trudeau, *which is also the lowest number we’ve recorded.*










						Abacus Data |   Conservative lead widens as unhappiness with federal government and Prime Minister Trudeau grows
					






					abacusdata.ca


----------



## ArmyRick (8 Sep 2022)

RangerRay said:


> It’s behind a paywall, but the Toronto Red Star is reporting Trudeau has announced he’s sticking around for the next election.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trudeau is really flirting with chance. A majority government to a minority government to another minority government should be a clue to him.

In my opinion, if he had half a brain he would tell everyone "I have done a great job but alas I am to step down...blah, blah"

Never mind all the blatant stupid moves Trudeau has made in his 7 years, when Canadians struggle to pay for rent, food and gas, they get into a whole new level of grumpy. 

I think he will experience the Wynne effect.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Sep 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Trudeau is really flirting with chance. A majority government to a minority government to another minority government should be a clue to him.
> 
> In my opinion, if he had half a brain he would tell everyone "I have done a great job but alas I am to step down...blah, blah"
> 
> ...



I still have faith Ont and Que will with a small push from the Maritimes will ensure our vaunted leader keeps his gov. 

I think Trudeau sees himself as the guardian from on high holding back some Mongol hoard.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (8 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I still have faith Ont and Que will with a small push from the Maritimes will ensure our vaunted leader keeps his gov.
> 
> I think Trudeau sees himself as the guardian from on high holding back some Mongol hoard.


Not quite. 

There are a lot of folks in Toronto and Montreal that make a lot of money investing in real estate and oil and gas. Both of those items are now bleeding profit like crazy, but the Green Shift economy hasn't materialized to replace it.

The cost of living in those areas is seeing more and more folks either leave entirely or suffer hard with no economic growth. That will cause the voting pool to shift to other ridings, and also cause traditionally liberal voters who could leave to want a change.

All is not well in the kingdom, but no one has the guts to tell the Prince its time to quit while you're ahead


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I still have faith Ont and Que will with a small push from the Maritimes will ensure our vaunted leader keeps his gov.
> 
> I think Trudeau sees himself as the guardian from on high holding back some Mongol hoard.


I'm not sure how Trudeau sees himself, but I am 99.99% sure that literally millions of Canadians  - not all of the 5.5 million who voted Liberal in 2021, but a lot of them - really *fear* a Tory government. There are two problems that I see:

1. while the _progressive_ media has not tempered its attacks on the Conservatives, fewer and fewer Canadians are paying attention; and​​2. despite relentless media attacks, both Andrew Scheer and Erin O'Toole gathered more votes, albeit much, much less efficiently, that did Prime Minister Trudeau in 2019 and 2021.​
Both those issues are big problem for the Liberal Party.

A bigger problem is the Andrew Leslie effect - fewer and fewer good Liberals (and unlike some of my friends, I think there are quite a few) are willing to stand for election because of, inter alia, "ethical things." The Trudeau brand is tainted and this time it goes well beyond prairie populist discontent.

Another problem is that_ I think _that Canadians, about 30 years ago, decided that eight to 10 years is the unwritten but generally accepted "term limit" for any prime minister. If Prime Minister Trudeau is serious about running in the next election then he will do so just as his "best-before-date" is about to come up. 

_My guess_ is that many Canadians, including many _progressive_ and even some Liberal Canadians, are just tired of Justin Trudeau and their political ennui will outweigh their distaste for the Conservatives.


----------



## RangerRay (8 Sep 2022)

I see this looking a lot like the 2016 US election: two deeply unpopular leaders which I think means it’s anybody’s race. While the Tories seem fired up about Pollievre, persuadable voters Tories need to win over are less sold.  You know the vaunted Liberal war room will publicize every piece of Pollievre baggage there is to make these persuadables think twice. 

Add to that Trudeau is getting long in the tooth and being exposed as being in over his head, his victory isn’t assured either.  His only saving grace is being “the devil you know”, which can be good enough.


----------



## QV (8 Sep 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I see this looking a lot like the 2016 US election: two deeply unpopular leaders which I think means it’s anybody’s race. While the Tories seem fired up about Pollievre, persuadable voters Tories need to win over are less sold. You know the vaunted Liberal war room will publicize every piece of Pollievre baggage there is to make these persuadables think twice. Add to that Trudeau is getting long in the tooth and being exposed as being in over his head, his victory isn’t assured either. His only saving grace is being “the devil you know”, which can be good enough.



The only benefit to another Trudeau term will be the acceleration of Western Canadian autonomy.


----------



## ArmyRick (8 Sep 2022)

My gut feeling is the Trudeau Liberals will not win next election.

People, even some die hard Liberals I personally know, Are asking the party to please, please replace Trudeau with a new and female leader (or someone who identifies as female? Bad Rick).

He can only "cry wolf" so many times. Cry wolf in his case is to label the Conservatives or anyone who disagrees or question his decisions as racist, misogynist, bigots, bully, transphobe, anti-climate science, etc. 

Add to that his past ethical blunders and tiring fan base.

PP on the other hand (why do people think he is a poor choice? Totally think people who say that are closet liberal apologist or NDP IMO) speaks very clearly on financial management, basic economics, accountability (in liberal terms somehow translates to hate speech), facilitating private business growth (I am a farmer and thus a business man, Trudeau has done us NO favours).


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Sep 2022)

PP doesn't send the right social signals.

Of course, the right social signals don't keep the heat and lights on, and there is no heat and light fairy that does so, either.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Sep 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> My gut feeling is the Trudeau Liberals will not win next election.



I sense a poll coming on....


----------



## Remius (8 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I sense a poll coming on....


Plenty of those out already. 

It will boil down to who Canadians dislike more.


----------



## Lumber (8 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> The only benefit to another Trudeau term will be the acceleration of Western Canadian autonomy.


An object fixed in position can't accelerate.


----------



## Lumber (8 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> The only benefit to another Trudeau term will be the acceleration of Western Canadian autonomy.


Actually, I'm going to hit this one again.

Why do you see the "autonomy of Western Canada" as a benefit? Why do you think the west should split from Canada? And you can't say "because Trudeau and the liberals and central Canada etc.", because that would be incongruent with the premise of your statement.

Sure, I could get the position that "separating from the rest of Canada" would be better than "living under the yoke of the LPC/Trudeau/Ontario-Quebec-Laurentian Elites", but that's not what your statement says.

Your statement implies that the separation of western Canada from the rest of Canada would be a good thing regardless of who's in power in Ottawa.

Do you want the West to separate from Canada? Wouldn't you rather there be a better government in Ottawa, one that keeps the country together and more equitable terms?


----------



## Kirkhill (8 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Actually, I'm going to hit this one again.
> 
> Why do you see the "autonomy of Western Canada" as a benefit? Why do you think the west should split from Canada? And you can't say "because Trudeau and the liberals and central Canada etc.", because that would be incongruent with the premise of your statement.
> 
> ...



Sometimes the heart overrules the head.  Eventually the aggravation endured can overcome the perceived benefits and people just walk away.

If the Easterners wanted to ease Western angst then, in my opinion, a simple solution would be to open up the energy corridor from Prince Rupert to Churchill.

Mine hydrocarbons and export them.
Mine uranium and refine it locally sufficiently to run local reactors to power the extraction industry.

Return excess carbon back to the ground it came from.  If you're not growing trees, wheat and beef fast enough.
Return waste uranium back to the hard rock from which it was extracted.

And with all the revenue generated enrich the native communities and develop the North.  Secure Canada's estates.


As to Trudeau quitting.... he is unlikely to announce retirement plans 2 years in advance.  The knives would be out immediately making the next two years extremely painful.


----------



## QV (8 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Actually, I'm going to hit this one again. Hit away.
> 
> Why do you see the "autonomy of Western Canada" as a benefit? Why do you think the west should split from Canada? And you can't say "because Trudeau and the liberals and central Canada etc.", because that would be incongruent with the premise of your statement. I didn't say "split". I think Western Canada should have the same level of autonomy as Quebec. I'm a strong proponent of the separation of powers.
> 
> ...



_sigh_


----------



## YZT580 (8 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> PP doesn't send the right social signals.
> 
> Of course, the right social signals don't keep the heat and lights on, and there is no heat and light fairy that does so, either.


neither did Harper.  Sometimes being noticeably different is all that is needed


----------



## Navy_Pete (8 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> PP doesn't send the right social signals.
> 
> Of course, the right social signals don't keep the heat and lights on, and there is no heat and light fairy that does so, either.


PP doesn't send the right policy signals. Harper had detailed plans to do what he wanted to accomplish (and did, with a certain level of ruthlesness I admire in a way for getting things done). PP has pithy rhetoric and the few ideas he's floated are either not within his authority (firing BoC head) or stupid (bitcoin).

I would be really happy with boring but competent from any major party.

I think a Rona Ambrose, or Jane Philpott in 2025 would have been awesome. The LPC appears to be grooming Chrystia Freeland, who, politics aside, seems like an asset to any organization, which I would be okay with compared to the current crop, but maybe there is a dark horse somewhere in cabinet or in the backbenches.


----------



## ArmyRick (8 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> PP doesn't send the right policy signals. Harper had detailed plans to do what he wanted to accomplish (and did, with a certain level of ruthlesness I admire in a way for getting things done). PP has pithy rhetoric and the few ideas he's floated are either not within his authority (firing BoC head) or stupid (bitcoin).
> 
> I would be really happy with boring but competent from any major party.
> 
> I think a Rona Ambrose, or Jane Philpott in 2025 would have been awesome. The LPC appears to be grooming Chrystia Freeland, who, politics aside, seems like an asset to any organization, which I would be okay with compared to the current crop, but maybe there is a dark horse somewhere in cabinet or in the backbenches.


and the record number of conservative memberships purchased during PP run? I think your lumping PP in with the wrong crowd. 

Trudeau has pretty much used up his aces. Can't help but notice the Liberal retreat he mentions helping low income Canadians with rent. I see that as part of another "voter bribe" package.  WE may head for a fall election yet.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Sep 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> and the record number of conservative memberships purchased during PP run? I think your lumping PP in with the wrong crowd.
> 
> Trudeau has pretty much used up his aces. Can't help but notice the Liberal retreat he mentions helping low income Canadians with rent. I see that as part of another "voter bribe" package.  WE may head for a fall election yet.


Hopefully he'll keep getting asked over and over 'It's been seven years, so why haven't you done xxxxxxxx promise yet?"


----------



## Lumber (8 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> _sigh_


I'm not jumping, I'm just following your statement to its logical conclusion. If you say that it would be a benefit for this apparently already in progress process to accelerate, accelerate, then it would be logical to infer that you are also happy (i.e. supportive of) the non-accelerated version of that process. Ergo, I may have been "jumping" to the conclusion that you meant "split" (though I don't think so, as I'll allude to below), but it was not a jump to assume you support the "autonomization" of the west (whatever that means) from the rest of Canada.

Quebec doesn't have any real autonomy. The division of powers is the same for Quebec as every other province, they just exercise their authorities differently (civil law vs common law, for example). So what exactly is it you think the west should be able to do that they can't do now (and that Quebec CAN do now?).


----------



## brihard (8 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> _sigh_


I’ll bite. What specific powers or authorities does Quebec uniquely have that the western provinces don’t, and which you’d like to see them gain?


----------



## Navy_Pete (8 Sep 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> and the record number of conservative memberships purchased during PP run? I think your lumping PP in with the wrong crowd.
> 
> Trudeau has pretty much used up his aces. Can't help but notice the Liberal retreat he mentions helping low income Canadians with rent. I see that as part of another "voter bribe" package.  WE may head for a fall election yet.


Collectively between PP, Charest and Patrick Brown they are claiming to have signed up about 600k members, which is more than the total of members in the entire CPC (with PP at 310k, and Charest and PB at 150k each).

Even so, there are over 17M eligible voters, with 10.5M+ actual votes last time. 300k members isn't insignificant, but unless they are new voters to the CPC (vice people that previously voted CPC) in areas that previously went LPC none of that translates into more seats.

The vast majority of Canadians have no official party affiliation, so unless PP starts attracting voters and flipping seats, makes no material difference. He can take 100% of the votes in existing CPC ridings and still be not in power.

From that perspective, Patrick Brown at least was focused on the GTA, which gives a path to forming government. Appealing to the existing base is great for the leadership campaign, and seems like he'll be basically annointed, but I don't see any real plans that would appeal to the centrist voters once you get past his platitudes. The existing JT platitudes is probably enough to keep people voting the way they did last time, so if they provide a real leader with actual vision and this is the best the CPC has to offer it's the status quo.  🤷‍♂️


----------



## QV (9 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> I’ll bite. What specific powers or authorities does Quebec uniquely have that the western provinces don’t, and which you’d like to see them gain?


They have a provincial police service, collect their income taxes, have the QPP... I'd like the western provinces to go down those roads.

I did say I would like to see the west have the same level of autonomy as Quebec. I did not say: "split", "separate", "have powers only Quebec has". 

You and Lumber are overzealous in your inferences.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> They have a provincial police service, collect their income taxes, have the QPP... I'd like the western provinces to go down those roads.





brihard said:


> What specific powers or authorities does Quebec uniquely have


That was not an answer to his question....

Sounds more like you mean to say you'd like the Westrern Govts. to actually do something??


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> That was not an answer to his question....
> 
> Sounds more like you mean to say you'd like the Westrern Govts. to actually do something??



Their ability to veto, actual or political, and transfer payments.  I think those are two big dissatisfiers from the West towards Que.  But I am neither a Westerner or Quebecois. 

Personally, I think its time to call Quebec's bluff and take some FPTP electoral power away from them.  Even it out across the country, regardless of population density, so no region can hold the rest hostage.


----------



## QV (9 Sep 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> That was not an answer to his question....
> 
> Sounds more like you mean to say you'd like the Westrern Govts. to actually do something??



His question contained an incorrect inference. 

But yes, I would like the western governments to act a helluva lot more like Quebec.


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> They have a provincial police service, collect their income taxes, have the QPP... I'd like the western provinces to go down those roads.
> 
> I did say I would like to see the west have the same level of autonomy as Quebec. I did not say: "split", "separate", "have powers only Quebec has".
> 
> You and Lumber are overzealous in your inferences.


Those are all things they can get or do if they want.  Why would a liberal government accelerate that?

Seems to me that a western friendly CPC government would be in a better position to enable that.


----------



## QV (9 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Those are all things they can get or do if they want. Why would a liberal government accelerate that? Seems to me that a western friendly CPC government would be in a better position to enable that.



Disagree. If there is a western friendly government there would be less discontent with the Federal power, less need for enacting those measures. A hostile Trudeau government will continue to incentivize (and maybe accelerate) these processes.


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Disagree. If there is a western friendly government there would be less discontent with the Federal power, less need for enacting those measures. A hostile Trudeau government will continue to incentivize (and maybe accelerate) these processes.


Sure but having their own police force, pension plan etc etc is not contingent on any party affiliation as QC has shown.

Unless it’s about having a fit over their relationship with the fed gvt in power.   If you want to see western Canada be like QC then it should come from a serious point of view and not one of “we should have a provincial police force because eff Trudeau”.


----------



## QV (9 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Sure but having their own police force, pension plan etc etc is not contingent on any party affiliation as QC has shown.
> 
> Unless it’s about having a fit over their relationship with the fed gvt in power.   If you want to see western Canada be like QC then it should come from a serious point of view and not one of “we should have a provincial police force because eff Trudeau”.


Those are just part of the road map. Surely you don't suggest only Quebec has a serious point of view. 

Even Saskatchewan wants to emulate Quebec...: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-moe-nation-quebec-1.6246899

Quebecers should be flattered!


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Those are just part of the road map. Surely you don't suggest only Quebec has a serious point of view.
> 
> Even Saskatchewan wants to emulate Quebec...: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-moe-nation-quebec-1.6246899
> 
> Quebecers should be flattered!



That article sizes it up. 

The irony here is in our clamoring to appease Que and stall separatists movements we're establishing a precedence and alienating other areas of the country while adding steam to their separation and pro-autonomy movements.

We cannot say Que is the only separate and distinct culture in Canada, its simply false.


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Those are just part of the road map. Surely you don't suggest only Quebec has a serious point of view.
> 
> Even Saskatchewan wants to emulate Quebec...: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/sask-moe-nation-quebec-1.6246899
> 
> Quebecers should be flattered!


If it’s coming from a position of wanting more provincial indépendance on handling their own affairs sure.  But if it flip flops because the LPC is in power vice the CPC then it’s not in good faith nor is it politically mature. 

Quebec seeks more power and independance based on what it feels is best for them regardless of who is in power federally and have been consistant in trying to achieve that.

If Alberta or Saskatchewan only flirts with it when the LPC is in power then it can’t really be taken seriously.

Which is why a CPC western friendly government would be more inclined to negotiate and be more beneficial to get to that goal.  Your premise is based on protest politics with partisanship at its root.


----------



## Halifax Tar (9 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> If it’s coming from a position of wanting more provincial indépendance on handling their own affairs sure.  But if it flip flops because the LPC is in power vice the CPC then it’s not in good faith nor is it politically mature.
> 
> Quebec seeks more power and independance based on what it feels is best for them regardless of who is in power federally and have been consistant in trying to achieve that.
> 
> ...



Its perfectly reasonable that the secessionist movements in Alberta would grow when there is a government that is unable to move programs forward that would support their economy.  

If we had a Fed Gov that would put Que in a corner with its soother and do what's best for the whole of the country this would be a none issue. 

Que only looks out for Que and can force the rest of the country to bend to its wishes.  Energy East is the perfect example.  Do you think is Sask, Man, Ont or NB had issues they would be playacted too ?  I highly doubt it.  This is simple appeasement of the proverbial screaming child.


----------



## Remius (9 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Its perfectly reasonable that the secessionist movements in Alberta would grow when there is a government that is unable to move programs forward that would support their economy.
> 
> If we had a Fed Gov that would put Que in a corner with its soother and do what's best for the whole of the country this would be a none issue.
> 
> Que only looks out for Que and can force the rest of the country to bend to its wishes.  Energy East is the perfect example.  Do you think is Sask, Man, Ont or NB had issues they would be playacted too ?  I highly doubt it.  This is simple appeasement of the proverbial screaming child.


QV made it a point to remark he wasn’t talking about secession.  Just more power to the provinces.  Things they can certainly do.  If they want a provincial force, pension plan, income tax collection etc etc they can do it if they want. 

The question is what can’t they do that Quebec is doing?  It’s all within their ability to make it happen if they want to.

A CPC fed government friendly to the west would certainly be a better enabler if they are serious about it.


----------



## brihard (9 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> They have a provincial police service, collect their income taxes, have the QPP... I'd like the western provinces to go down those roads.
> 
> I did say I would like to see the west have the same level of autonomy as Quebec. I did not say: "split", "separate", "have powers only Quebec has".
> 
> You and Lumber are overzealous in your inferences.


I can’t speak for Lumber, but I drew no such inference. It was clear from what you had already said that you weren’t talking about outright separation or secession; you explicitly noted “I didn’t say split”, plus I know that as a CAF member who clearly likes Alberta, separation would be self defeating. I merely asked what you’d like to see happen.

As for the things you said, Alberta could do them if it wanted. It’s a matter of funding and will. Initial steps are already happening on the possibility of a provincial police force, although if that happens it’ll be chock full of Mounties anyway for the first couple decades.

I accept what you’re saying that federal
governments perceived as less accommodating to the west are likely to lead to a bit more pressure on these items. DoesnMt mean any given one idea or another will be _good_ ideas, but I’m fine with Alberta trying to go it alone in any way Quebec has.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Sep 2022)

Using Quebec as a comparison for interface in the federation is difficult if you don't acknowledge the difference between common law and civil law. There is a reason that all contest etc have a caveat for QC; their foundation for provincial laws is fundamentally different from the rest of Canada.

You can blame Britain for allowing Qc to keep French civil law after the defeat at the Plains of Abraham I guess, vice forcing them to adopt common law, but it means their relationship with the federal government is different in that their entire provincial legal system is different.


----------



## TacticalTea (9 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Using Quebec as a comparison for interface in the federation is difficult if you don't acknowledge the difference between common law and civil law. There is a reason that all contest etc have a caveat for QC; their foundation for provincial laws is fundamentally different from the rest of Canada.
> 
> You can blame Britain for allowing Qc to keep French civil law after the defeat at the Plains of Abraham I guess, vice forcing them to adopt common law, but it means their relationship with the federal government is different in that their entire provincial legal system is different.


Can't really blame Britain, and can't really ''force'' Quebec to do much either.

It is different because it is willing to leave (and back during the empire, was willing to revolt) if absolutely necessary, and take Canadianism with it.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Sep 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Can't really blame Britain, and can't really ''force'' Quebec to do much either.
> 
> It is different because it is willing to leave (and back during the empire, was willing to revolt) if absolutely necessary, and take Canadianism with it.


Only if they left their portion of it behind, and somehow ignoring the First Nation agreements are with the Crown, not QC, so a provincial vote to separate doesn't have any jurisdiction over that.

In general, the First Nation agreements being separate from Confederation means that any province leaving Canada would be a strangely riddled puzzle piece.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (9 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Only if they left their portion of it behind, and somehow ignoring the First Nation agreements are with the Crown, not QC, so a provincial vote to separate doesn't have any jurisdiction over that.
> 
> In general, the First Nation agreements being separate from Confederation means that any province leaving Canada would be a strangely riddled puzzle piece.


Same thing with the republican factions within Canada that want to ditch the monarchy. The AFN had already said that any removal of the Crown from "Canada" will see a dissolution of any treaties or agreements.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Sep 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Same thing with the republican factions within Canada that want to ditch the monarchy. The AFN had already said that any removal of the Crown from "Canada" will see a dissolution of any treaties or agreements.


Honestly don't see the value in going towards a republic; the Crown has no actual authority in practice, and even just re-writing the constitution to go towards it would be a nightmare. I think the Parliament setup works reasonably well, and I don't see the value of adding a head of state with real authority to complicate things. The AFN is just another very good reason to ride the status quo, and if we ever get to the point where we have the time/energy to fix all of that I'm assuming it's either after achieving world peace and equality, or things have gone more Mad Max.


----------



## RangerRay (9 Sep 2022)

The last time British Columbia seriously considered bringing back the BCPP was under the Tory-friendly Liberals. They decided against it because $$$. 

Fast forward a couple of years and Liberal-friendly Mayor of Surrey Doug McCallum pushed through a municipal force to replace the RCMP in spite of vocal opposition and ever increasing costs to taxpayers.

So I don’t buy fed Liberals = more provincial/local policing in Tory-friendly jurisdictions.


----------



## Kirkhill (9 Sep 2022)

Parfois, pour moi, on a des problemes parcitte.

Notre Premier Ministre ne sembles pas comme un grand ami d'Alberta, meme les Anglos.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2960960140850930


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Sep 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> The AFN had already said that any removal of the Crown from "Canada" will see a dissolution of any treaties or agreements.


That would suck for them.


----------



## brihard (9 Sep 2022)

An amendment to the office of the Monarch in the Constitution Act requires an identical bill to be passed by both Houses of Parliament and all ten Provincial legislatures.

Any attempt to reopen the Constitution so broadly would inevitably logjam; there’s no way we could rewrite the absolute underpinnings of our division of political power without several provinces holding the process hostage to some want or another. And it would only take a single provincial legislature to “nope” the whole thing. I see there being no realistic prospect of the ten provinces plus both Houses of Parliament being able to reach an accord that would see the Canadian monarchy cease.


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Sep 2022)

Everyone has a price.  Just have to meet it.


----------



## Kilted (9 Sep 2022)

brihard said:


> An amendment to the office of the Monarch in the Constitution Act requires an identical bill to be passed by both Houses of Parliament and all ten Provincial legislatures.
> 
> Any attempt to reopen the Constitution so broadly would inevitably logjam; there’s no way we could rewrite the absolute underpinnings of our division of political power without several provinces holding the process hostage to some want or another. And it would only take a single provincial legislature to “nope” the whole thing. I see there being no realistic prospect of the ten provinces plus both Houses of Parliament being able to reach an accord that would see the Canadian monarchy cease.


Yeah, it's basically impossible. In other news, should we start talking about the King's Coronation Medal?


----------



## Lumber (9 Sep 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Parfois, pour moi, on a des problemes parcitte.
> 
> Notre Premier Ministre ne sembles pas comme un grand ami d'Alberta, meme les Anglos.
> 
> ...


I like him, he speaks his mind!
...


----------



## brihard (9 Sep 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Everyone has a price.  Just have to meet it.


Yeah but when you’re dealing with a dozen different someone’s whose prices may not all be compatible with each other, reality can get in the way


Kilted said:


> In other news, should we start talking about the King's Coronation Medal?


Ugh.


----------



## TacticalTea (10 Sep 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Only if they left their portion of it behind, and somehow ignoring the First Nation agreements are with the Crown, not QC, so a provincial vote to separate doesn't have any jurisdiction over that.
> 
> In general, the First Nation agreements being separate from Confederation means that any province leaving Canada would be a strangely riddled puzzle piece.


As the SCC has recognized, any sort of UDI would be outside the frame of legality, so it is futile to attempt to make legal arguments.

Geopolitics would be the deciding factor.


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2022)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberal-mps-less-woke-1.6566633
		


I hope they talk more like this…


----------



## QV (12 Sep 2022)

And I hope voters don't fall for it. 

The decent LPC MPs who remained silent after JWR and Philpot were chased out or silent after all the scandals are not really decent after all.  

This party needs to be banished to the hinterland, not even party status, so something like JT is never the PM again.


----------



## Remius (12 Sep 2022)

Anything that moves either the LPC or CPC to the Center is fine by me.


----------



## IKnowNothing (12 Sep 2022)

Remius said:


> Anything that moves either the LPC or CPC to the Center is fine by me.


Was coming to post that article.  We can only hope that there's traction.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Sep 2022)

Looks like our PM can sing 









						Video shows Trudeau belting out Bohemian Rhapsody in London days before Queen funeral
					

The British press was quick to seize upon the video as evidence of Justin Trudeau’s lack of decorum at a time of official mourning




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Remius (19 Sep 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Looks like our PM can sing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not sure.  He sounded a bit off key…


----------



## ModlrMike (19 Sep 2022)

Tone deaf is more like it.


----------



## Lumber (20 Sep 2022)

The left: "Funerals and wakes often have moments of camaraderie and jolliness, and this is no different. He is entitled to some light social time."

The right: "He has horrible judgement skills and really is an immature childish clown/jester. This is right up there with his blackface party days."

The center: "Would you both just shut the f*** up and talk about actual policies to help with inflation and the housing crisis?"


----------



## rmc_wannabe (20 Sep 2022)

"Much Ado About Nothing" comes to mind. 

Act II, Scene i


> BEATRICE
> Why, he is the Prince's jester, a very dull
> fool; only his gift is in devising impossible slanders.
> None but libertines delight in him, and the commendation
> ...


----------



## Remius (20 Sep 2022)

I tend to agree that this is pretty much nothing.

But…

I do think that the PM has made errors in judgment in the past that have been embarrassing (costumes etc) so I guess this sort of thing just adds to a narrative that is self inflicted.  If he didn’t have the already long list of gaffes maybe this would be brushed off by most.  Heck maybe it is being brushed off by most. 

People shouldn’t lose sleep over this.  It’s not really a big deal.


----------



## RangerRay (20 Sep 2022)

My disdain for Trudeau is well known, but this is a nothing-burger. There’s lots of other things to go after him on. Going after him on this looks petty.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 Sep 2022)

This is just silly; and I directly judge people on whether or not they will sing along to a pub song like this in a pub setting. Funerals are sad, but I'm a big fan of celebrating people's lives and accomplishments, and you can do that while also being sad they are gone.


----------



## QV (20 Sep 2022)

Is it a big deal? Not as big a deal as say "blackface" or the SNC scandal...  

This is just another example of the PM acting foolish while representing this country. Another negative.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (20 Sep 2022)

I would say this is foolish not even from a Canadian perspective citizens perspective, rather a completely offensive one to one of our closest allies.

For most Canadians they are going to follow exactly what Lumber laid out. From a British perspective, a nation which is going through days of mourning and is known for their stoicism, they have a concept known as time and place. Getting a flight to attend to the funeral of the Monarch on taxpayer dime, to then spend some of that time when your supposed to be mourning or at least representing a mourning nation shows he has no self-control. It is offensive to them. And I would say he owes one of our greatest allies a apology. Especially after partially making something which should have been a show up, do the dance, go home event with only your attendance noted. Into a look at what Trudeau is up to event. 

This isn't about a domestic look, it is about how we look internationally, and it isn't a great one.


----------



## QV (20 Sep 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I would say this is foolish not even from a Canadian perspective citizens perspective, rather a *completely offensive one to one of our closest allies*.





Eaglelord17 said:


> This isn't about a domestic look, it is about how we look internationally, and it isn't a great one.



Exactly


----------



## RangerRay (20 Sep 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I would say this is foolish not even from a Canadian perspective citizens perspective, rather a completely offensive one to one of our closest allies.
> 
> For most Canadians they are going to follow exactly what Lumber laid out. From a British perspective, a nation which is going through days of mourning and is known for their stoicism, they have a concept known as time and place. Getting a flight to attend to the funeral of the Monarch on taxpayer dime, to then spend some of that time when your supposed to be mourning or at least representing a mourning nation shows he has no self-control. It is offensive to them. And I would say he owes one of our greatest allies a apology. Especially after partially making something which should have been a show up, do the dance, go home event with only your attendance noted. Into a look at what Trudeau is up to event.
> 
> This isn't about a domestic look, it is about how we look internationally, and it isn't a great one.


Good points. 

Unfortunately, most people won’t see it that way. I still contend that it’s better to hold one’s powder dry for truly offensive behaviour/policies that one doesn’t need to explain too hard to others why it’s offensive.

If you’re explaining, you’re losing.


----------



## Lumber (20 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Exactly


And he was in a T-shirt, coloured no less! The _gall!_


----------



## YZT580 (20 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> Exactly


The choice of music was also in extremely bad taste.  The name Queen in this case presents further implications considering the person for whom they were supposedly in mourning.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Sep 2022)

YZT580 said:


> The choice of music was also in extremely bad taste.  The name Queen in this case presents further implications considering the person for whom they were supposedly in mourning.



The face you just want to punch....


----------



## Lumber (20 Sep 2022)

YZT580 said:


> The choice of music was also in extremely bad taste.  The name Queen in this case presents further implications considering the person for whom they were supposedly in mourning.


Yup, the Queen would have been real upset about the Prime Minister of Canada, who she called “extraordinary” to meet, playfully singing a song from a band — founded by Brian May, Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire — that played her Platinum Jubilee Party.


----------



## mariomike (20 Sep 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The face you just want to punch....



Be fun to see you two in a boxing ring....  

I would bet on YOU! 💵

( Winnings to charity, of course. )


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Sep 2022)

mariomike said:


> Be fun to see you two in a boxing ring....
> 
> I would bet on YOU! 💵



No. Way.

I am better than him in many ways I’m guessing but, believe me, boxing would not be one of them.

Anyways, no matter how many times you hit him I doubt that you’d be able to knock any common sense into him


----------



## YZT580 (20 Sep 2022)

Lumber said:


> Yup, the Queen would have been real upset about the Prime Minister of Canada, who she called “extraordinary” to meet, playfully singing a song from a band — founded by Brian May, Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire — that played her Platinum Jubilee Party.


you bet your sweet ... she would.  Her majesty knew when/where to let her hair down and when to be majestic.  She also knew when which words and actions to pick and on what occasion.  Our beloved leader is about as crude as they come.  How does the line "in memory of Queenie I'd like to do my rendition of Bohemian Rapsody" grab you as an introduction?   That was the thought that crossed my mind as soon as I heard about it and if I doubt if I was alone.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Sep 2022)

I know we’ve called every Conservative Leader for the last 7 years a right-wing extremist, but this time we mean it​


> As you know The Conservative Party of Canada has selected Pierre Poilievre as their new Party Leader. Unfortunately I have to warn you that Mr. Poilievre is a dangerous right-wing ideologue who is far too extreme to govern our country. And while I said that exact same thing about Erin O’Toole, Andrew Scheer and Stephen Harper, this time I’m super serious.


----------



## mariomike (21 Sep 2022)

Gotta love  The Beaverton! 🤣


----------



## RangerRay (22 Sep 2022)

The political spectrum isn’t necessarily becoming radicalized or polarized, but both sides appear to be embracing illiberalism as they seek to destroy each other and use the power of the state to do so. The article is about American politics, but I see the same trends here. 









						Both left and right are converging on authoritarianism
					

The problem with American politics isn't polarization—it's rising illiberalism.




					reason.com


----------



## QV (27 Sep 2022)

You have got to ask yourself with Russia putting the squeeze on European energy, why the hell wouldn't North America be going full throttle on energy production and security? Any other COA is just playing into Putin's desired outcome. Is that on purpose?


----------



## Lumber (27 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> You have got to ask yourself with Russia putting the squeeze on European energy, why the hell wouldn't North America be going full throttle on energy production and security? Any other COA is just playing into Putin's desired outcome. Is that on purpose?


Are you asking if "North American government are _not _going full in on energy production and security in order to purposefully play into Putin's desired outcome?" I.e. are you asking if North American government's are purposefully supporting Putin?


----------



## Quirky (27 Sep 2022)

QV said:


> You have got to ask yourself with Russia putting the squeeze on European energy, why the hell wouldn't North America be going full throttle on energy production and security?



Oil sands and pipelines are bad for climate. Mmmkayyyy.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Dec 2022)

Same old story.

Trade Minister Mary Ng broke ethics rules over contract to friend, commissioner rules​


----------



## Quirky (13 Dec 2022)

She was sorry.

Carry on.


----------



## brihard (13 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Same old story.
> 
> Trade Minister Mary Ng broke ethics rules over contract to friend, commissioner rules​


She should resign or be fired from her cabinet post.


----------



## Remius (13 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> She should resign or be fired from her cabinet post.


Agreed.  Add to that that Alvaro is a regular LPC pundit….


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> She should resign or be fired from her cabinet post.


But that rule was abandoned years ago ... if it had applied then Prime Minister Trudeau would have had to resign from his own cabinet, and sit as a backbench MP, five years ago.


----------



## TacticalTea (13 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> But that rule was abandoned years ago ... if it had applied then Prime Minister Trudeau would have had to resign from his own cabinet, and sit as a backbench MP, five years ago.


Timely! It's the Khan's birthday today!


----------



## Navy_Pete (13 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Same old story.
> 
> Trade Minister Mary Ng broke ethics rules over contract to friend, commissioner rules​


Meanwhile us poor old plebs trying to get actual work done have to fill out additional forms on indigenous procurement, GBA+, accessibility, write up and RFP/TSOR, jump through the hoops to get it on the new 'buy and sell', wait 30 days, evaluate the bids, go through a blood sacrifice, and hopefully get a compliant bidder with no CITT complaints along the way.

Ethics aside, the fact they can just award a contract to some random person (friends or not) for PR wonk (vice using existing government PR wonks) is mind boggling. Why not just contract a friend to do her job and save us the MP salary?


----------



## Eaglelord17 (14 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> But that rule was abandoned years ago ... if it had applied then Prime Minister Trudeau would have had to resign from his own cabinet, and sit as a backbench MP, five years ago.


Don’t forget the RCMP should have charged him with fraud over that as well. 

Also the whole we won’t allow anyone accused of sexual assault or harassment in the Liberal party, then when his case is brought up ‘she must have experienced it differently’.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> Agreed.  Add to that that Alvaro is a regular LPC pundit….








How about that 16$ glass of orange juice... 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bev-oda-retiring-with-pride-and-no-oj-regrets-1.1191636


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Dec 2022)

For what it's worth, a prediction from a former Team Orange captain ....








						Tom Mulcair: Brace yourself because 2023 will likely be an election year
					

Brace yourselves because the new year, 2023, will likely be an election year, former NDP leader Tom Mulcair writes in an opinion column for CTVNews.ca. 'Should he choose to stick around, Trudeau will be in his fourth contest since first winning in 2015, a prospect as tiring for his troops as it...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> For what it's worth, a prediction from a former Team Orange captain ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it’s an accurate prediction.


----------



## ModlrMike (14 Dec 2022)

I think that Mulcair, like many people are forgetting that the Torries can, and have, formed the government without taking Quebec, while the Liberals cannot, and have not. Quebec is not the brass ring it once was.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

ModlrMike said:


> I think that Mulcair, like many people are forgetting that the Torries can, and have, formed the government without taking Quebec, while the Liberals cannot, and have not. Quebec is not the brass ring it once was.



Has a majority gov ever been established with out taking seats in Que ?


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

ModlrMike said:


> I think that Mulcair, like many people are forgetting that the Torries can, and have, formed the government without taking Quebec, while the Liberals cannot, and have not. Quebec is not the brass ring it once was.


I don’t think he denied or forgot that.  Just that the LPC are likely to take QC. Or rather that PP may have a hard time making gains there.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

200 of the 343 seats in the HOC reside in Ont and Que.  









						House of Commons Seat Allocation by Province 2022–2032 – Elections Canada
					

Information on the readjustment of electoral boundaries and representation in the House of Commons of Canada.



					www.elections.ca
				




Quebec and Ont cannot be ignored.


----------



## MilEME09 (14 Dec 2022)

Explosive information, we all suspected but it seems like this was sat on. 11 candidates in the GTA had assistance from PRC operations in Canada.









						Secret 2020 Privy Council Office memo found ‘active foreign interference network’ in 2019 election - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The Privy Council Office regularly briefs the prime minister’s office and appropriate cabinet ministers on national security intelligence.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> I think it’s an accurate prediction.


Singh wont to go before Oct 1, 2023.  

He was elected 2017 oct 1.  So the most important date is 6 years after that.  And you all know why.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Explosive information, we all suspected but it seems like this was sat on. 11 candidates in the GTA had assistance from PRC operations in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not much to say until/if the names of the candidates are released.


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Dec 2022)

> Beijing has denied the allegations.


Trudeau has denied the allegations. (Numerously, all knowledge of etc.). Thus how could it be possibly true?


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> Singh wont to go before Oct 1, 2023.
> 
> He was elected 2017 oct 1.  So the most important date is 6 years after that.  And you all know why.


He’s still likely electable in his own riding.  And as mentioned in the article it looks better to walk from the agreement rather than being dumped.


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Not much to say until/if the names of the candidates are released.





Remius said:


> He’s still likely electable in his own riding.  And as mentioned in the article it looks better to walk from the agreement rather than being dumped.


yes most likely.....but there is a risk and he just doesn't strike me as a big risk taker.  

Wait the few months get the guaranteed pension.  He knows he will lose the general for the NDP, get dumped by the party.  Collect the pension then onto the blue sky of boards, speaking fees and international think tanks.   Winning!


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Dec 2022)

Trudeau is just trolling us now and it's hilarious.


Trudeau says 'it sucks' when ethics breaches occur, but system is working​


> On the heels of the latest confirmed ethics breach within his cabinet, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says, while "it sucks" when such cases of improper conduct arise, the fact the public knows about them is a sign the system is working.
> 
> "We have a system that has the kind of accountability and transparency that works and that is clear to reassure Canadians that if someone is taking advantage of the system — either deliberately or by accident — they'll get caught and called out on it. And that's an example of the institutions working,





> Asked how these breaches keep happening, Trudeau said that his government is focused on the work they promised to accomplish and "when you do lots of things, every now and then people are going to make mistakes."


----------



## Halifax Tar (21 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau is just trolling us now and it's hilarious.
> 
> 
> Trudeau says 'it sucks' when ethics breaches occur, but system is working​



We get what we deserve.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Trudeau is just trolling us now and it's hilarious.
> 
> 
> Trudeau says 'it sucks' when ethics breaches occur, but system is working​





"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." 

- Mark Twain


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Has a majority gov ever been established with out taking seats in Que ?


2011.  CPC majority; 166 seats (155 needed); 5 seats in QC.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jan 2023)

McKinsey ... you magnificent bastards.

Can't even see the puppet strings in this photo 








The consulting firm McKinsey & Company has seen the amount of money it earns from federal contracts explode since Prime Minister Justin Trudeau came to power — to the point where some suggest it may have a central role in shaping Canada's immigration policies.

A Radio-Canada investigation also learned the private consulting firm's influence is raising concerns within the federal public service.

According to public accounts data from Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC), the Liberals spent 30 times more money on McKinsey's services than Stephen Harper's Conservatives did.

In the nine years of the Harper government, McKinsey was awarded $2.2 million in federal contracts. During Trudeau's seven years in office, the company has received $66 million from the federal government.




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mckinsey-immigration-consulting-contracts-trudeau-1.6703626?cmp=newsletter_Evening%20Headlines%20from%20CBC%20News_1617_831480


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2023)

daftandbarmy said:


> McKinsey ... you magnificent bastards.



*I hear their company retreats are to die for.*



> About four miles from where the McKinsey consultants discussed their work, which includes advising some of China’s most important state-owned companies, a sprawling internment camp had sprung up to hold thousands of ethnic Uighurs — part of a vast archipelago of indoctrination camps where the Chinese government has locked up as many as one million people.


----------



## RangerRay (4 Jan 2023)

More on McKinsey, Dominic Barton, the Liberals and China from Terry Glavin. 









						Dominic Barton, and the Damage Done. Part 1.
					

All the king's horses aren't going to make a difference. Not this time. It's too late.




					therealstory.substack.com
				












						Dominic Barton, and the Damage Done. Part 2.
					

More from the shadows cast by the Liberals' very own Mephistopheles in the glaring light of a scandal involving Beijing's operatives in Canada. With unreported malfeasance from Moscow to Istanbul.




					therealstory.substack.com


----------



## CBH99 (5 Jan 2023)

daftandbarmy said:


> McKinsey ... you magnificent bastards.
> 
> Can't even see the puppet strings in this photo
> 
> ...


"He's not corrupt!"  "He's great!"

I'd ask why $66 million dollars of our taxed money was quietly fed to that particular consulting firm...but I know I'd get the same rehearsed answer he gives everybody else...

What were they being consulted about?  Why did they have to be consulted at all?  Did they submit a bid like everybody else has to, or did they just magically end up on someone's call list?  

You know...the standard questions...


----------



## singh1947 (5 Jan 2023)

Spencer100 said:


> yes most likely.....but there is a risk and he just doesn't strike me as a big risk taker.
> 
> Wait the few months get the guaranteed pension.  He knows he will lose the general for the NDP, get dumped by the party.  Collect the pension then onto the blue sky of boards, speaking fees and international think tanks.   Winning!


I do wonder how long his speaking career will last since I don't think Sajjan's did - or is he just doing MP duties still?

While I'd welcome Sikhs having a more global role these guys compromise on core principles.

So it may be better for everyone involved for them to fade quietly from the spotlight..


----------



## Spencer100 (6 Jan 2023)

singh1947 said:


> I do wonder how long his speaking career will last since I don't think Sajjan's did - or is he just doing MP duties still?
> 
> While I'd welcome Sikhs having a more global role these guys compromise on core principles.
> 
> So it may be better for everyone involved for them to fade quietly from the spotlight..


Nothing about what I said had anything to do with him being a Sikh.  

I find most of my daily dealings with people (who happen to be Sikh) great.  The problem and strength of the Sikh community is that there is the stand out factor (putting that badly sorry).  Being in the logistics business daily interactions.  

I think the great part is you see Sikhs now in the CPC, Liberal, NDP etc.  They are not one block of people.


----------



## singh1947 (6 Jan 2023)

Spencer100 said:


> Nothing about what I said had anything to do with him being a Sikh.
> 
> I find most of my daily dealings with people (who happen to be Sikh) great.  The problem and strength of the Sikh community is that there is the stand out factor (putting that badly sorry).  Being in the logistics business daily interactions.
> 
> I think the great part is you see Sikhs now in the CPC, Liberal, NDP etc.  They are not one block of people.








Of course, I was just saying that while I like to see representation the commonality seems to end there.
They're vegetarian for example & the whole christmas drama with a red or green turban.
Meanwhile, he doesn't mention the entire Sikh month of remembrance occurring simultaneously.
Sikh religion isn't a personal affair - he's been confronted about aspects of the Maryada (code) he's been publicly lax about.

When you wear a uniform, well you guys know the rest..


----------



## Spencer100 (6 Jan 2023)

singh1947 said:


> Of course, I was just saying that while I like to see representation the commonality seems to end there.
> They're vegetarian for example & the whole christmas drama with a red or green turban.
> Meanwhile, he doesn't mention the entire Sikh month of remembrance occurring simultaneously.
> Sikh religion isn't a personal affair - he's been confronted about aspects of the Maryada (code) he's been publicly lax about.
> ...


I guess most of that is for the greater Silk community to deal.  I am not on very firm ground here.

As is the saying here is    I am way out of my lane!  

like I am in the first east bound 401 collector at 400 interchange and that topic is the west bound ramp to 400.


----------



## singh1947 (Sunday at 06:34)

Bill Morneau on euphoria of Trudeau’s 2015 victory to ‘one of the worst moments’ in his political life
					

Morneau’s new memoir Where To from Here highlights positive role Ottawa can play, takes shots at Trudeau and warns of threats of increasingly partisan politics




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				






> Former federal finance minister Bill Morneau sees a bright future for Canada. What he doesn’t envision is Prime Minister Justin Trudeau leading the country to this promised land.
> 
> The book also warns of the threats posed by our increasingly partisan political process, with Mr. Morneau taking direct aim at the take-no-prisoners approach employed by Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre, the party’s former finance critic.
> 
> ...





> Early in the book, Mr. Morneau highlights the euphoria that came with the Liberals’ sweeping 2015 election victory, when Mr. Trudeau’s “sharp intelligence and charisma” helped propel the party into power. “Soon after the election, I came to realize that while his performance skills were superb, his management and interpersonal communication abilities were sorely lacking,” he said.











						Globe editorial: Canada’s immigration plan should involve more than just big numbers
					

Ottawa needs an immigration strategy that focuses on boosting productivity and living standards




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				






> The word “goal” appears seven times in the Immigration department’s latest annual report to Parliament, a document that purportedly lays out the Liberal government’s vision of how to bring a historic number of permanent residents to Canada in the next three years.
> 
> The plan spells out how many newcomers are projected to arrive through 2025, growing to a record annual intake of 500,000 people. And it calls those targets a goal.
> 
> They are not; those quotas are simply a means to an end. Left unasked, much less answered, is the question: What is Canada’s immigration policy trying to achieve?





> The Trudeau government, like its predecessors, leans heavily on platitudes – diversity and multiculturalism are good! – and blandishments about immigration supporting population growth and economic prosperity.
> 
> The Liberal government is also shifting away from using the existing ranking system, creating greater ministerial latitude to admit workers in sectors where critical labour shortages are deemed to exist. Unsurprisingly, those shortages exist in lower-wage industries that cannot, or will not, pay higher salaries or otherwise adapt to labour scarcity.
> 
> The shift from selecting high-skills immigrants to filling lower-wage labour gaps is a mistake that amplifies the distortions wrought by expanding the temporary foreign workers program. In both cases, Canadian immigration policy is pulling in the wrong direction, by subsidizing low-wage employers and dampening the pressure to innovate.











						Opinion | More evidence that economic growth is not being shared
					

Our study finds that roughly three quarters of the gap between productivity and median wages can be explained by growing inequality.




					www.thestar.com
				





> Many Canadians pride themselves on living in an inclusive country. But our economy may be less inclusive than most realize.
> 
> Although our national GDP has more than doubled since 1976, the median worker’s real wage has barely increased since that time. Economic progress should be assessed by the purchasing power of median wages, not, as is too often the case, by profits or share prices.
> 
> ...





> The Canadian economy has been far from inclusive over the past 40 years. However, there are reasons for optimism.
> 
> Since 2000, median wages have grown 0.53 per cent per year, reducing the wage-productivity gap to less than half its pre-2000 rate — that’s good news. And 2013 to 2019 saw the growth rate for median wages rise to 0.75 per cent per year — a trend in the right direction.


Opinion: Data Dive with Nik Nanos: Canadians think the country is headed in the wrong direction. That means trouble for Trudeau 



> It might have felt like the first “normal” holiday season in several years, gathering with friends and family without any restrictions, but the mood of Canadians is not very festive. The news is neither good for Justin Trudeau’s Liberals nor Pierre Poilievre’s Conservatives.
> 
> Every December for the past 16 years, Nanos has conducted an annual tracking survey. For the most recent survey, when asked about the direction of the country, 43 per cent believe we are going in the wrong direction, while 40 per cent say Canada is headed in the right direction.
> 
> ...





> Middle-aged Canadians, a key battleground for all the parties, are the generation most likely to be negative about the direction the country is going (48 per cent wrong, 39 per cent right). Of note, while people in the Prairies were the most negative (59 per cent wrong, 31 per cent right), individuals in Quebec were the most positive (46 per cent right, 34 per cent wrong).
> 
> When asked about the performance of the governing party, Canadians were more likely to rate the performance of the federal Liberal government negatively. About four in 10 gave a rating of very poor (28 per cent) or somewhat poor (13 per cent), while one in three gave a positive rating of very good (7 per cent) or somewhat good (26 per cent). The rest said their performance was average.
> 
> The outright very poor score of 28 per cent is numerically the third-highest negative score on record since 2007 for any federal government, with the two other more negative scores being the two precursor years to the fall of the Harper government.





> At the close of 2022, ballot tracking by Nanos suggests that the Conservatives stand at 34-per-cent support, followed by the Liberals at 29 per cent and the NDP at 22 per cent. About just as many people would consider voting Liberal (45 per cent) as consider voting Conservative (42 per cent). Historically the Liberals have had a larger pool of accessible voters – that is, people who are open to voting Liberal. Yet that advantage over the Conservatives has disappeared.
> 
> The political calculus becomes even more problematic with NDP support in the twenties. With the Liberals under 30 and the NDP over 20, the Liberals get squeezed by vote splitting, creating opportunities for both the Conservatives and the NDP. The split of Liberal-NDP progressive voters is the dream scenario for Mr. Poilievre, creating similar winning conditions that propelled Stephen Harper into power.
> 
> ...


----------



## singh1947 (Sunday at 19:20)

singh1947 said:


> Bill Morneau on euphoria of Trudeau’s 2015 victory to ‘one of the worst moments’ in his political life
> 
> 
> Morneau’s new memoir Where To from Here highlights positive role Ottawa can play, takes shots at Trudeau and warns of threats of increasingly partisan politics
> ...


Basically,

if we cut immigration, strengthen the military & nationalize resources (public or private & sovereign wealth fund) we could be a bigger Norway.
That's my deep dive into policies that won't get implemented by any party nor approved by D.C.

Summary of each quoted article:

1. Bill Morneau complains Trudeau's gov lacks business/management expertise & uses policy to chase headlines
2. Advocates tying immigration to economic health ala pre-Mulroney (NAFTA related?)
3. 1976-2000 was worse for workers than the period since. Most easy offshoring is done
4. Bad news for Trudeau since most Canadians think country being steered in wrong direction ala Harper 2013/14.

Morneau wants more businessmen to run for office however, so much power rests in international bodies now.
Nation states aren't really the primary regulatory or economic agents anymore - certainly not in the cultural or tech sphere.
National Govs will be made up of the try-hard Upper-Middle Class or Managerial class like Trudeau.
If you were a big billionaire why deal with Canada directly when your interests are met at the WTO or through a brokered FTA?

Still optimistic overall, and especially so because of article #3.

--
Back to lurking.
Enjoy reading other's thoughts over parroting my own.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀ 🙏⚔️


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## daftandbarmy (Sunday at 21:14)

Meanwhile, no one likes the leaders...

More than 40 percent of Canadians prefer different leaders than Justin Trudeau and Pierre Poilievre to be leaders of their parties in the next election. (Globe and Mail/Nanos)​
Canadians twice more likely to prefer that the Liberals have someone other than Justin Trudeau leading them in the next election (51%) rather than having Justin Trudeau be the leader (25%). Seventeen per cent had no preference and seven per cent were unsure what they preferred.

Over four in ten Canadians (45%) prefer that the Conservatives have someone other than Pierre Poilievre leading them in the next election, whereas three in ten (30%) prefer that Pierre Poilievre be the leader. Seventeen per cent had no preference and seven per cent were unsure what they preferred. Men were significantly more likely to prefer Pierre Poilievre as the leader (39%) compared to women (22%).







						More than 40 percent of Canadians prefer different leaders than Justin Trudeau and Pierre Poilievre to be leaders of their parties in the next election. (Globe and Mail/Nanos) – Nanos Research
					






					nanos.co


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## Brad Sallows (Sunday at 23:13)

Doesn't seem to be any filter for political affiliations.  Common sense suggests that NDP supporters would prefer someone leaning more their way than either Trudeau or Poilievre.  If I assumed the Liberals had a base of 25% of the people, Conservatives had a base of 25%, and NDP had a base of 20%, I'd expect something near:
25% pro-Trudeau, 45% against.
25% pro-Poilievre, 45% against.


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## ArmyRick (Monday at 13:25)

Another year done for Trudeau. Or is Trudeau finally done?


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## Edward Campbell (Monday at 14:14)

ArmyRick said:


> Another year done for Trudeau. Or _is Trudeau finally done?_


My _guesstimate_ is that Justin Trudeau can run again - the Liberals don't have any real bench strength and the LPC in 2023 is, effectively, little more than a cult of personality - and while I expect the CPC to get more votes - maybe >?33% to <29% - I will not be surprised if the Liberals get a fmall plurality of total seats (e.g. LPC: 125 - CPC: 123 - BQ: 50 - NDP: 35 - Others: 5) and, with NDP and Green support - form a weak but stable minority government. The only way that the CPC gets a plurality is to have Pierre Poilievre change his style. He needs to appeal to women - soccer moms, etc - in suburban Ontario and BC; he doesn't but Trudeau and Singh do.


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## mariomike (Monday at 15:27)

Edward Campbell said:


> He needs to appeal to women - soccer moms, etc - in suburban Ontario and BC; he doesn't but Trudeau and Singh do.



Regarding that, in today's Globe and Mail,









						Poilievre must do more to win over women voters, including pressing ‘anger button’ less often, observers say
					

Political commentators say Poilievre’s aggressive stand in debates risks alienating women who want to see practical solutions, rather than point-scoring




					www.theglobeandmail.com


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## porkpie (Monday at 16:33)

Edward Campbell said:


> My _guesstimate_ is that Justin Trudeau can run again - the Liberals don't have any real bench strength and the LPC in 2023 is, effectively, little more than a cult of personality - and while I expect the CPC to get more votes - maybe >?33% to <29% - I will not be surprised if the Liberals get a fmall plurality of total seats (e.g. LPC: 125 - CPC: 123 - BQ: 50 - NDP: 35 - Others: 5) and, with NDP and Green support - form a weak but stable minority government. The only way that the CPC gets a plurality is to have Pierre Poilievre change his style. He needs to appeal to women - soccer moms, etc - in suburban Ontario and BC; he doesn't but Trudeau and Singh do.


Reading your post - with all the colours had flashbacks to the memo writing as punishment they had us do in BMQ..................


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## daftandbarmy (Monday at 23:08)

Shall be known as 'The Selfie Administration'...

Kelly McParland: Morneau confirms image-obsessed Trudeau's management is 'sorely lacking'​While Trudeau's 'performance skills were superb, his management and interpersonal communication abilities were sorely lacking'

I have no intimate understanding of the mental processes of our prime minister, but if I was getting the sort of feedback on my job performance that he’s been getting, I’d certainly take a moment for honest reflection.

According to a recent survey by the Nanos organization, more than half of Canadians want Justin Trudeau to step aside and let someone else lead the Liberal party into the next election, whenever that might be. Almost as many think the country is headed in the wrong direction.

An Ipsos poll garnered similar results: half the country wants yet another election this year, even though we’ve had two in the past three years, and 54 per cent want a different Liberal leader to fight it.

This month will see a new book by former finance minister Bill Morneau, who left the government in unhappy circumstances just as the pandemic hit, praising Trudeau as a great performer but a lousy manager, his focus on short-term partisan gains over sound policy and long-term benefits.

 Though thrilled at joining the Trudeau government in 2015, Morneau writes, “Soon after the election, I came to realize that while his performance 
skills were superb, his management and interpersonal communication abilities were sorely lacking.” 

Echoing similar points to those made by Jody Wilson-Raybould, the former justice minister and attorney general who lost her job for refusing to buckle to demands she considered unethical and possibly illegal, Morneau portrays Trudeau as distant and isolated, prone to issuing dicates to cabinet members rather than inviting consensus, fiercely partisan and keen on winning short-term punch-ups that produce positive, if fleeting, headlines. He suffers, according to the book, from an “inability or lack of interest in forging relationships” with “me and, as far as I could tell, the rest of his cabinet.”

 Morneau’s concern is that Ottawa’s focus on popularity over performance is feeding an extended slide in the country’s ability to compete with rivals, maintain a strong economy and produce the money needed to pay for its social programs. In 2019 Canada fell from the top 10 in an index of the world’s most competitive countries, and was down to 14th by last year. The Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development recently ranked Canada last out of 38 countries in per capita economic growth, and predicted it would be the “worst-performing advanced economy over 2020 to 2030 and the three decades after.” 

As has often been noted, we have a prime minister who once boasted of his lack of interest in monetary policy, doubled the debt in just seven years, insisted there was “no business case” to sell liquid natural gas to Germany — which faced a frigid winter thanks to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine — only to see Berlin sign a 15-year deal with Qatar, and agreed to a dental program at a potential cost of billions of dollars solely to win temporary NDP support for the Liberal’s minority government.

 There is no evidence any of this has had an impact on Trudeau’s plan to lead the party into the next election, the date of which is not entirely in his control. Supporters can point out that Canadians are even less enthused about Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre, whose standing is low among men and lower among women. Morneau says Poilievre’s methods “are in conflict with almost every political value we have enjoyed as a nation for over 150 years.” And while the Tories may lead the Liberals in overall voter preference, that’s largely due to overwhelming support in western Canada, which has repeatedly proven inadequate to winning elections. 










						Kelly McParland: Morneau confirms image-obsessed Trudeau's management is 'sorely lacking'
					

Liberals face a dilemma: If they stick with unpopular Trudeau, another minority is the best they can hope for




					nationalpost.com


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## brihard (Monday at 23:43)

daftandbarmy said:


> Shall be known as 'The Selfie Administration'...
> 
> Kelly McParland: Morneau confirms image-obsessed Trudeau's management is 'sorely lacking'​While Trudeau's 'performance skills were superb, his management and interpersonal communication abilities were sorely lacking'
> 
> ...



A challenger approaches?


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## Rifleman62 (Tuesday at 13:19)

*Good luck Japan. You will get the same answer as a desperate Germany.*​*





						National Post ePaper
					

National Post ePaper offers current issues of National Post ePaper.




					epaper.nationalpost.com
				



*​*LNG likely on agenda for Japan PM’S visit, **Bid to avoid reliance on China, Russia*​
OTTAWA • Canadian liquefied natural gas is expected to come up for discussion later this week as Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida makes his first official visit to Canada. Kishida is set to arrive in Ottawa on Thursday. It will be the first Canadian visit by an Asian head of government since Ottawa launched its Indo-pacific strategy last November, which called for closer ties with countries that can counterbalance China’s influence.

Japan is similarly trying to pivot away from a reliance on China and Russia for electricity and food.
To that end, Kishida has created the position of a minister of state for economic security, and is trying to bring nuclear reactors back online after dozens were halted following the 2011 Fukushima disaster.
The country is so reliant on Russian fuel that G7 countries gave Japan an exemption on a measure that caps the price of Russian oil below market rates, to avoid Japan facing the same scramble for energy that Europe undertook last year.

Trevor Kennedy, the Business Council of Canada vice-president for international policy, said Kishida will likely seek a further commitment from Canada to sell liquefied natural gas, and mention an ongoing interest in hydrogen. “They’re stuck in a situation where they’re sourcing their LNG from Russia, and they don’t have another option,” said Kennedy, who has worked in Japan. Japan and South Korea have invested in Canada’s first LNG export terminal in Kitimat, B.C., which is set to come online in 2025.

Kennedy said both countries and Canadian firms are watching to see whether the terminal meets that timeline, given the delays other large energy projects in Canada have faced. He said the energy sector, Tokyo and Seoul also want Ottawa to boost the LNG sector by expanding the terminal or launching more of them. Otherwise, Japan and South Korea will have to rely on gas from Russia, or ask faraway countries to send supplies through waters China is trying to control.

Last month, Foreign Affairs Minister Mélanie Joly said Canada’s goal is to be as close to South Korea and Japan as Ottawa is to Germany, France and the U.K. Kennedy said it’s an obvious decision, given the pair are democratic countries who share the same values. But he said it requires a sense of urgency. “We need to be more deliberate about how we engage,” he said. “A lot of it is a mindset, and just understanding that these are our neighbours.”

Kennedy said Canadian businesses have been looking past Japan for the past three decades. The country’s economic bubble burst in 1991, just as other Asian countries started posting stronger growth. Japan’s population is also aging at one of the fastest rates in the world. Yet the country remains the world’s third-largest economy, Kennedy noted, and it’s flush with capital that firms are seeking to invest abroad. Railways and telecommunications companies, for example, have barely any room to develop more services within Japan, and have been focusing on investments elsewhere.
The CPTPP trade deal, which spans most of the Pacific Rim, has helped boost Canadian exports to Japan, particularly pork and canola products.

Japanese companies are now looking to expand electric-vehicle production in North America, and Ottawa is under pressure to match American subsidies on the production of green vehicles and components. Last month, Japan’s new defence strategy called for working with allies to ward off threats from North Korea and China, and has made it legal for Japan to strike enemy bases. Tokyo is also boosting military spending by 26 per cent in just one year.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Kishida will likely take stock of a plan both countries issued last October, spanning everything from fighting illegal fishing to implementing a military intelligence sharing deal.

Kishida might also publicly endorse Canada’s desire to join the Indo-pacific Economic Framework for Prosperity, a forum for co-ordinating supply chains and tax policy. Ottawa claims that all members of that group want Canada to join. Japan takes over the rotating presidency of the Group of Seven this year and Kishida’s visit to Canada is part of a multi-country tour.

Experts will watch for large-ticket announcements at the G7 leaders’ summit this May in Hiroshima.


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## Lumber (Tuesday at 14:03)

Rifleman62 said:


> *Good luck Japan. You will get the same answer as a desperate Germany.*​*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Except that "Japan and South Korea have invested in Canada’s first LNG export terminal in Kitimat, B.C., which is set to come online in 2025."


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## YZT580 (Tuesday at 15:04)

Lumber said:


> Except that "Japan and South Korea have invested in Canada’s first LNG export terminal in Kitimat, B.C., which is set to come online in 2025."


All Trudeau has to do is agree: knowing that environmental assessments, first nation discussions, law suits, and protests will stop any project in its tracks whilst he will appear to be in agreement.


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## Edward Campbell (Tuesday at 15:46)

porkpie said:


> Reading your post - with all the colours had flashbacks to the memo writing as punishment they had us do in BMQ..................


You had to be able to read and write to do recruit training?

I'm glad I enlisted over 60 years ago when literacy was a "nice to have."


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