# Need Advice - Reporting a Possible Lying Applicant



## SOES_vet (16 Jun 2011)

After searching around this site, and reading some CF policies, I realize that the best course of action I should take, is to probably talk to the people at my local CFRC, but I also wanted to throw this out here as well to get some opinions.

So here is the situation. Someone I know, very personally, informed me of that he suffer from a psychiatric condition. I also know this person to be a pathological liar(another problem he has). In fact, this person was unceremoniously booted from this forum for his imagined "warrior" adventures. I also know this person may be applying to the CF, and I am legitimately concerned that he will withhold his psychiatric condition, from the medical staff, because I believe that he has done this before when he was previously enrolled in the CF as a NCM of the primary reserves. I believe he now wants to apply as an Officer.

Here is where I need some advice:

1) I don't have any solid proof of him telling me all of this, other than my memories of our conversation, which I am sure he will deny. As a result, I don't know if I have any grounds to report anything. Do I?

2) Other than trying to talk to someone from the CFRC, is there any other avenues I should explore?

3) Am I over-stepping any boundaries here? I haven't even done BMOQ and I am wondering if me trying to report someone is in some way inappropriate? I also recognize that some people could abuse any type of reporting system, so I want to make it clear that I am just doing this because I am legitimately concerned about having someone, who is not mentally fit, serving in the CF for the safety, and integrity of everyone.

Hope some of you can help

Thanks
SOES_Vet


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2011)

Perhaps you will be lucky and he fills in his application and uses you as a Reference.  

There isn't much else you can do.  The Recruiters will have him fill out the application and interview him.  There is where he will likely provide a number of inconsistencies that should attract the attention of a skilled Recruiter and the alarm bells are raised.  Don't forget that he also has to have BackCheck done and that can also illuminate problems with his integrity.

A liar is a thief.  A person who steals your trust.  The CF doesn't need this type of person, especially if they are applying as an officer.


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## Staff Weenie (16 Jun 2011)

George, sadly I cannot agree with your assessment of CFRC's capabilities. We had an NCM with some serious personality disorder issues, and a severe allery to honesty. In a matter of a few years he racked up several RW's and a C&P, and countless hours were put into delaing with his threats and attempts to blackmail people. He went to the CFRC for a component transfer and commissioning as an Infantry Officer. We called the CFRC and detailed his behaviour. We offered to send his file over for their review. We insisted they needed to know the info. They outright refused to listen, or review the material. In the end, he was removed from training, and thrown out of the CF - all at a great expense to the taxpayer. Had CFRC payed attention, this wouldn't have happened, and we would have been able to release him after he would have inevitably breached his C&P.


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2011)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> George, sadly I cannot agree with your assessment of CFRC's capabilities. We had an NCM with some serious personality disorder issues, and a severe allery to honesty. In a matter of a few years he racked up several RW's and a C&P, and countless hours were put into delaing with his threats and attempts to blackmail people. He went to the CFRC for a component transfer and commissioning as an Infantry Officer. We called the CFRC and detailed his behaviour. We offered to send his file over for their review. We insisted they needed to know the info. They outright refused to listen, or review the material. In the end, he was removed from training, and thrown out of the CF - all at a great expense to the taxpayer. Had CFRC payed attention, this wouldn't have happened, and we would have been able to release him after he would have inevitably breached his C&P.



I agree with you, as I too have seen/known persons who have been extreme manipulators of the truth who have made it into the CF, the most recent only within the last year (and as an officer at that).  I was trying to qualify my statement with "a skilled Recruiter" as well as taking the tack that SOES_vet would not have much recourse, other than if the "liar" were to use him as a Reference.


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## Staff Weenie (16 Jun 2011)

As a sidebar to this issue, I cannot understand why when a person does a CT, their pers file doesn't follow them! We've inherited some serious problems over the years, and I've seen some horrid troops head to the Regs - if we were only allowed to see their pers files prior to the CT, that could end the problem.


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## SOES_vet (16 Jun 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps you will be lucky and he fills in his application and uses you as a Reference.
> 
> There isn't much else you can do.  The Recruiters will have him fill out the application and interview him.  There is where he will likely provide a number of inconsistencies that should attract the attention of a skilled Recruiter and the alarm bells are raised.  Don't forget that he also has to have BackCheck done and that can also illuminate problems with his integrity.
> 
> A liar is a thief.  A person who steals your trust.  The CF doesn't need this type of person, especially if they are applying as an officer.



Hummm.

I must confess, I am a bit miffed that it would appear that there is nothing I can actively do. But if that is the name of the game, I guess, that is just it. 

@ Staff Weenie - I will say, I am shocked that someone who was having serious issues within the ranks would have the gall to apply as an Infantry Officer! Then again, you did say they have a serious personality disorder.

As  for this individual using me as a reference... I don't think he would be that dumb. I recently confronted him about some of his serious misuses of adjectives, and his actions on this site. Either way, like you said, something may/will come out. He is a pretty toxic individual and I am sure he has a paper trail somewhere.

Thanks for the replies thus far!  :nod:

*edited for spelling


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## chrisf (16 Jun 2011)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> As a sidebar to this issue, I cannot understand why when a person does a CT, their pers file doesn't follow them! We've inherited some serious problems over the years, and I've seen some horrid troops head to the Regs - if we were only allowed to see their pers files prior to the CT, that could end the problem.



Wait, your pers file doesn't follow you? I was under the (mistaken?) impression that your pers file was your pers file for life?


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## PuckChaser (16 Jun 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Wait, your pers file doesn't follow you? I was under the (mistaken?) impression that your pers file was your pers file for life?



The pers file isn't reviewed for the CT process, just your quals and anything in EMAA/Peoplesoft. Its a two way street though, I've seen some horrible pers end up in the PRes after CTing from the RegF.


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## chrisf (16 Jun 2011)

The file does follow you to the new unit though?


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## dangerboy (16 Jun 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The file does follow you to the new unit though?



When I did a CT my reserve pers file did not follow me.  Of course this was back in 93 so things are probably differant.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Jun 2011)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> When I did a CT my reserve pers file did not follow me.  Of course this was back in 93 so things are probably differant.



We kept it to protect your reputation.....   

dileas

tess


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## Stoker (16 Jun 2011)

I believe starting soon a CT will be based on your last few PER's. That should change things to the better somewhat.


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## CountDC (16 Jun 2011)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> When I did a CT my reserve pers file did not follow me.  Of course this was back in 93 so things are probably differant.



even in 93 your file should have followed you and been placed at the beginning of your reg f pers file.  Of course it would have depended on the reg f clerk receiving it how much of the file made it and how much was eaten by the shredder.  It was not uncommon for entire files to disappear as the clerk felt that the reserve crap was not needed (almost happened to my file until another clerk stepped in and saved it).

I think the recruiting centre should be looking at the files prior to processing the members in to the regs.  As for regs to pres - doesn't the reserve unit have to agree to accept the member prior to the ct or did that change?  Perhaps they should request to see the file prior to agreeing to take the member in.


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ....  As for regs to pres - doesn't the reserve unit have to agree to accept the member prior to the ct or did that change?  Perhaps they should request to see the file prior to agreeing to take the member in.



Yes.  Reserve unit CO's have to approve accepting the member, and then it is passed up for Area approval.


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## Trick (16 Jun 2011)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but wouldn't the psychiatric condition come up in the medical? They also do a medical history check. I would have enough faith in the system that someone who's just 100% rotten wouldn't make it through- especially these days.


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## kawa11 (16 Jun 2011)

SOES_vet said:
			
		

> Someone I know, very personally, informed me of that he suffer from a psychiatric condition. I also know this person to be a pathological liar(another problem he has). In fact, this person was unceremoniously booted from this forum for his imagined "warrior" adventures. I also know this person may be applying to the CF, and I am legitimately concerned that he will withhold his psychiatric condition, from the medical staff, because I believe that he has done this before when he was previously enrolled in the CF as a NCM of the primary reserves. I believe he now wants to apply as an Officer.
> 
> I don't have any solid proof of him telling me all of this, other than my memories of our conversation, which I am sure he will deny. As a result, I don't know if I have any grounds to report anything. Do I?
> 
> Am I over-stepping any boundaries here? I haven't even done BMOQ and I am wondering if me trying to report someone is in some way inappropriate? I also recognize that some people could abuse any type of reporting system, so I want to make it clear that I am just doing this because I am legitimately concerned about having someone, who is not mentally fit, serving in the CF for the safety, and integrity of everyone.


Firstly, I'm not in the CF nor am I a social worker, HR, psychiatrist, etc.

If the person is a pathological liar, how can you be sure they weren't lying about said condition?
Related to that: If they were able to function in the CF reserves is it possible that this condition is something that doesn't exist or may not hurt their ability to function?

Is the condition something that could be a matter of concern to the person or the people immediately surrounding the person? ie. untreated violent schizophrenia? homocidal/sexual sublimination?
Or is it something less extreme: they have treatable depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, treatable paranoia, etc?

*NOTE:* These are just questions to ask yourself not to be answered in an open forum.

If you're genuinely concerned, there's no harm in calling the CFRC anonymously. Police or mental health professionals is another route.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Jun 2011)

Trick said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm wrong, but wouldn't the psychiatric condition come up in the medical? They also do a *medical history check*. I would have enough faith in the system that someone who's just 100% rotten wouldn't make it through- especially these days.



It's been more than a couple of decades since I had any direct involvement with recruit medicals and it is likely that many things have changed.  However, the "medical history check" is still probably the same - asking the applicant if he has had any previous medical history of "X".  There is no central repository of all personal medical information that can be accessed and thus verify if the individual was telling the truth.  There is a likelihood that something may be uncovered during the physical examination or by noticing unusual behaviour during the encounter, but that is about it.  

Not all unusual behavior is a "psychiatric condition" and despite an increasing trend (especially if a drug company can develop a product to deal with it) to provide a medical sounding name for everything, sometimes it is just unusual behaviour, idiosyncrasies.  Such people can be usually capable of fully functioning regardless of the social or work setting despite having personality traits that may be outside the accepted norm.  Even when such unusual behaviour may reach the level of an accepted "psychiatric condition", in a military setting it may often be considered being "unable to adapt to military life" and results in administrative (with no medical input) or disiplinary action.


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## Fanfreluche (16 Jun 2011)

i personally believe people who lie usually end up tangled in there own web of lie and pay for it at the end....  
this is the army.. i very much doubt any mental illness or liers can remain hiden very long,
 i think it take a strong heart and a clean soul to do this job


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## 57Chevy (16 Jun 2011)

SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I don't have any solid proof



1. You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> other than my memories of our conversation



2. He could tell you anything that he wants to.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I don't know if I have any grounds to report anything. Do I?



3. I think you should mind your own business.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> Am I over-stepping any boundaries here?



4. Definitely so !



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I haven't even done BMOQ and I am wondering if me trying to report someone is in some way inappropriate?



5. Yes it is.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I also recognize that some people could abuse any type of reporting system, so I want to make it clear that I am just doing this because I am legitimately concerned



6. Are you ? 



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> about having someone, who is not mentally fit, serving in the CF for the safety, and integrity of everyone.



1. You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I also wanted to throw this out here as well to get some opinions..



1. You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> this person was unceremoniously booted from this forum for his imagined "warrior" adventures.



I don't think you should be coming here putting someone down even if that member was banned. 
Where do you get off ? 



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> I also know this person may be applying to the CF



He may be applying. He may be pulling your leg too.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> and I am legitimately concerned that he will withhold his psychiatric condition, from the medical staff



1. You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.



			
				SOES_vet said:
			
		

> because I believe that he has done this before when he was previously enrolled in the CF as a NCM of the primary reserves. I believe he now wants to apply as an Officer.



And you are allowed to believe whatever you like.

Unlike you,
At least he has gained some kind of experience wearing the uniform.

Most importantly is #1, (You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.)
and #3 ( I think you should mind your own business.)

Furthermore, you sound like a busybody meddling in the affairs of others.
Are you sure you want to join the military ?


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## SOES_vet (17 Jun 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Unlike you,
> At least he has gained some kind of experience wearing the uniform.



I'm working on that.



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Most importantly is #1, (You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.)



Yes, I am indeed not a medical doctor. Yet I feel I don't need to be a medical doctor to feel concerned about a possible dangerous situation. This is why I asked for more input. Furthermore, he told me of his mental condition, and to be quite frank I don't know what to believe.



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> and #3 ( I think you should mind your own business.)
> 
> Furthermore, you sound like a busybody meddling in the affairs of others.



I am sorry if this all came off that way. I just felt uneasy about this situation, but I am glad I posted because I also gained some input, and knowledge from this forum that I did not have before. Which I feel is valuable.

Your opinion is also duly noted.



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Are you sure you want to join the military ?



Yes. I do want to join the military. My reasons, and motivations for joining, run far deeper than a single inquiry questioning it.


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## Waters81 (17 Jun 2011)

I can agree with SOES_vet concerns, but s/he didn't state that he WAS going to contact the CFRC, s/he was merely asking if he SHOULD advise them of an individuals POSSIBLE mental instability. I'm not saying that s/he should, and I would hope that that kind of thing would surface during the application/interview process, I actually hope it does, especially if the individual is trying to join as an officer. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone who is mentally unstable (if s/he is) giving me orders in a life or death situation. But there was no need to attack him/her for asking the question (57Chevy), that is, after all, more or less what this site is for, is it not? 

Unlike you,
At least he has gained some kind of experience wearing the uniform.

Most importantly is #1, (You are not a doctor so you cannot make any diagnosis of his alledged mental state.)
and #3 ( I think you should mind your own business.)

Furthermore, you sound like a busybody meddling in the affairs of others.
Are you sure you want to join the military ?  

As far as that little diatribe goes, maybe you should ease up a little. And where do YOU get off questioning someones reasons for wanting to join!? You've served our country, and believe me when I say that it is GREATLY appreciated, and I have no doubt that the wealth of knowledge that you could share with us who are trying to join is invaluable...but it doesn't give you the right to be a prick!
Now, I'm not looking to start a forum battle here, I've said my piece and I apologize to the "Milnet.ca" staff if I have have spoken inappropriately or stepped out of line, but no one should be attacked for asking the advice of others.


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## 57Chevy (17 Jun 2011)

I was not questioning any reasons for someone wanting to join the military.
Advice was asked for, I gave some worth considering.

I made no attack on anyone, and yet there is an attack on a prior reserve force member
who is defenceless to allegations regarding the state of his mental health. 

He, like any other person has the fundamental right to seek employment and fulfill his dreams. 
If the man has what you imagine to be psychological problems and through some conversation with him
has made you aware of them, then he is likely on the road to recovery. 
Only a Qualified Specialist can make any real diagnosis of his condition. And who knows, maybe he is
already seeking professional help, and perhaps has/will obtain a clean mental bill of health. Unless you have documented
proof of his being a violent psychopathic nut case, it is not for you, nor any other, to be throwing axe handles into his spokes.


Sometimes what we perceive is not really the case.

In my time serving, I have myself questioned the mental health of many a soldier and I can say that I
would have jumped/marched into battle, any time, with a whole lot of those same men,.....officers alike. Lets face it,
sometimes people can say some pretty weird things that can make you wonder about their sanity. Some of 
those guys who were awarded the most distinguished of medals are seen as being "crazy" for doing
what they did by some people.  Does that mean they have mental health issues ?

You don't have to apologize to the staff for insinuating that I be a prick by calling me one.
I have been called the full array of names from the dirt pile during the last 50+ years of my life. I stand by what I say.

Whether you think he may be a future danger to other troops or to society in general for that matter,
A public forum is not a place to discuss hearsay allegations regarding the mental health issues of others. If you would like
to discuss or seek advice on issues pertaining to yourself, that is another story.  


To go off on a little tangent, I can offer you this little story.

At a time during my service there was an incident where the SM made a point of obtaining the truth surrounding a certain
matter. He gathered the whole of the unit and demanded to know the 'who' involved in the incident. Not one of
the troops came forward.
By the looks of him, he was extremely outraged by it all, but deep down he knew he would have acted in 
like manner. After long and vigorous lecture by himself and later by the CO, it became clear that he would not be successful
in obtaining what he queried upon. Realizing this, he knew that the person/s involved would have to come forward
themselves. He gave us an ultimatum and a time limit that those responsible make their way to his office by X hundred
hours or there would be hell to pay. It was only then that he became successful. Sure, the multitude of us knew nothing
of the matter, but there were those that did.
It's called "honour". 

There is nothing worse for a soldier to also be a pigeon.
I can let you find that out for yourself if you want. But I assure you that when you 
gain some firsthand experience of seeing only the sole of the boots of one of your fellow soldiers
attempting to seek what he perceives to be a few brownie points, you will understand
exactly what I mean.
You will also see the effects on his reputation.


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## Waters81 (17 Jun 2011)

No, you are correct, this is not the place to have that type of discussion, but it is the place to ask whether or not to bring it someones attention. And, I understand the point of your story, and yet again your are correct, a honour is all that one has.
So the question has been asked, and advice given. Conclusion, let the recruiters and the process do its thing, and hopefully, if any issues do exist, they be noted and dealt with appropriately.


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## SOES_vet (17 Jun 2011)

Waters81 said:
			
		

> Conclusion, let the recruiters and the process do its thing, and hopefully, if any issues do exist, they be noted and dealt with appropriately.



I agree. As George Wallace has indicated, this is all really in the hands of the CFRC. As the person who started this thread, I am satisfied with the posts made, and the advice given.


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## SOES_vet (17 Jun 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Sometimes what we perceive is not really the case.



Absolutely. This is why I went and asked for advice, and why I asked if I was stepping out of line. But one thing I carry with me, is the advice given to me by someone who's profession is exploring his interactions with people. He told me "If you feel there is doubt, there probably is. It may not be what you think it is. It may be something within you, but the doubt is still there." I felt doubt, and I had to further explore it. Discussing more details, beyond what I have already wrote, would not be appropriate but what I can also say is, personally, if I was out get at someone, I wouldn't have asked about the merits of it, or permission. I would have just done it. 




			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> To go off on a little tangent, I can offer you this little story.
> 
> At a time during my service there was an incident where the SM made a point of obtaining the truth surrounding a certain
> matter. He gathered the whole of the unit and demanded to know the 'who' involved in the incident. Not one of
> ...



I won't forget your story.


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## kawa11 (17 Jun 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Unless you have documented proof of his being a violent psychopathic nut case, it is not for you, nor any other, to be throwing axe handles into his spokes.


Pretty sure 'Mythbusters' disproved this in the 'Indiana Jones' episode..just saying  :


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## brihard (17 Jun 2011)

For what it's worth, good on you for identifying what you see as an issue, and having the guts to seek some qualified advice on the matter, then to stick to your guns in the face of criticism. If you take the attitude and judgment you've shown in this thread into the military with you, some leadership should make a fine officer out of you.


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## 57Chevy (23 Jun 2011)

kawa11 said:
			
		

> Pretty sure 'Mythbusters' disproved this in the 'Indiana Jones' episode..just saying  :



I think you know what I meant by that statement.
Anyway, 
the speed of the motorbike had a lot of play in busting that myth.

I can remember as a kid in grade school ( accidently : ) throwing a miniture football into the front wheel of some guy
who was riding down the street. He was not going very fast as I can remember that the football got stuck in the spokes 
and sure enough he flipped over. (He didn't get hurt)
However,
I cannot recall ever seeing that football again after that little episode. ;D
                                        __________________________________

Episode 111: Motorcycle Flip
Air Date: October 29, 2008
Throwing a wooden pole into the spokes of a motorbike’s front wheel will cause it to flip. (Based on a scene in the movie Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.)
http://mythbustersresults.com/motorcycle-flip
The Mythbusters first obtained a bike similar to the type used during filming of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. They built a mechanized rig that could fire a pole at human-like speeds. During a full-scale test with the bike moving at a speed of 40 miles per hour, the bike snapped the wooden pole without stopping, busting the myth. Undeterred, The MythBusters decided to redo the test with a steel pole. Although the steel pole did stop the bike, it skidded instead of flipping, definitively busting the myth. The team analyzed the movie scene and discovered that explosives were used to flip the bike. They then built a mortar and used it to flip the bike in an elaborate recreation of the movie scene.


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## kawa11 (23 Jun 2011)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I think you know what I meant by that statement.
> Anyway,
> the speed of the motorbike had a lot of play in busting that myth.
> 
> ...


I was surprised by the result myself. Didn't expect the thing to go flying the exact same as the movie.
But damned if I haven't been thrown off bikes when I get sticks and such stuck in the spokes..


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## PrettyMaggie63 (24 Jun 2011)

I am living proof that this can happen while riding a bicycle. Several years ago I was biking home from baseball practice carrying my bat across the front handle bars. A thunderstorm was approaching and I decided to hurry up and get home before it hit, so I became careless. The bat slipped from my hands and somehow went in the spokes of the front wheel. The bike suddenly stopped, and although it didn't technically flip, I did, "keester" over tea kettle and ended up in the emergency department getting my upper leg stitched back together. I sure learned my lesson.


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## JMesh (25 Jun 2011)

That was a bicycle, not a motorcycle. I sincerely doubt you were bicycling at 67.4 km/h (40 mph). The power wouldn't be the same, so it would be more likely to catch than to break the wood as happened in the MythBusters experiment.


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