# The Numbering of Squadrons



## Ex-Dragoon (29 Jan 2007)

Ok why is it we have all of our air force squadrons in the 400 series while there is a lone man out with 103 Squadron? Why the odd departure in sequence?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (29 Jan 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Ok why is it we have all of our air force squadrons in the 400 series while there is a lone man out with 103 Squadron? Why the odd departure in sequence?



Doesnt' the 400 thing date back to the Second World War for easy recognition of which country in the Commonwealth the Sqn belonged to??
Must Goggle...I remember reading about it when visiting the museum in Comox.


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## aesop081 (29 Jan 2007)

Yes indeed it comes from the allocation from WW2...there were a few exceptions later on

103 and 880 sqn being 2 of them


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Jan 2007)

thanks guys thats clears it up.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (29 Jan 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> thanks guys thats clears it up.



Expansion of the RCAF overseas in the spring of 1941, and a new policy of Canadianization created a new system of squadron numbering to avoid confusion with RAF squadrons. The 400-449 block was allocated to the RCAF. Number 110 became Number 400, Number 1 became Number 401 and Number 112 became Number 402. The first RCAF unit formed overseas was Number 403 Fighter Squadron on the 1st of March 1941. 

http://www.rcafmuseum.on.ca/ww2.htm


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2007)

There were numerous Squadrons that didn't fall into the 400 series.  Some are from the RCN, but some were early RCAF Transport Sqns.  The Operational Flying Squadrons were:

5 RCAF  (Volando Vincimus); 
VIII RCAF  (Determined to Defend); 
10 RCN  (Superbia in Progressum);
32 RCN  (NIHIL QUAM ARDUUM);
33 RCN  (FINIS CORONAT OPUS);
103 RCAF  (SEEK AND SAVE);
115 RCAF  (BEWARE);
119 RCAF  (NOLI ME TANGERE);
145 RCAF  (FUROR NON SINE FRENIS);
162 RCAF  (SECTABIMUR USQUE PER IMA);
400 RCAF (PERCUSSURI VIGILES);
401 RCAF (MORS CELERRIMA HOSTIBUS);
402 RCAF (WE STAND ON GUARD);
403 RCAF (STALK AND STRIKE);
404 RCAF (READY TO FIGHT);
405 RCAF (CUCIMUS);
406 RCAF (WE KILL BY NIGHT);
407 RCAF (TO HOLD ON HIGH);
409 RCAF (MEDIA NOA MERIDIES NOSTER);
410 RCAF (NOCTIVAGA);
411 RCAF (INIMICUS INIMICO);
412 RCAF (PROMPTUS AD VINDICTAM);
413 RCAF (AD VOGO;A,IS IMDIS);
414 RCAF (TOTIS VIRIBUS);
415 RCAF (AD METAM);
416 RCAF (AD SALTUM PARATUS);
417 RCAF (SUPPORTING LIBERTY AND JUSTICE);
418 RCAF (PIYAUTAILILI);
419 RCAF (MOOSA ASWAUITA);
420 RCAF (PUGNAMUS FINITUM);
421 RCAF (BELLICUM CECINERE);
422 RCAF (THIS ARM SHALL DO IT);
423 RCAF (QUAERIMUS ET PETIMUS);
424 RCAF (CASTIGANDOS CASTIGAMUS);
425 RCAF (JE TE PLUMERAI);
426 RCAF (ON WINGS OF FIRE);
427 RCAF (FERTE MANUS CERTAS);
428 RCAF (USQUE AD FINEM);
429 RCAF (FORTUNAE NIHIL);
430 RCAF (CELERITER CERTOQUE);
431 RCAF (THE HATITEN RONTERIIOS);
432 RCAF (SAEVITER AD LUCEM);
433 RCAF (QUI S'Y FROTTE S'Y PIQUE);
434 RCAF (IN EXCELSIS VINCIMUS);
435 RCAF (CERTI PROVEHENDI);
436 RCAF (ONUS PORTAMUS);
437 RCAF (OMNIA PASSIM);
438 RCAF (GOING DOWN);
439 RCAF (FANGS OF DEATH);
440 RCAF (KA GANAWAITAK SAGUENAY);
441 RCAF (STALK AND KILL);
442 RCAF (UN DIEU UNE REINE UN COEUR);
443 RCAF (OUR STING IS DEATH);
444 RCAF (STRIKE SURE STRIKE SWIFT);
445 RCAF (STRIKE AS LIGHTNING);
446 RCAF (VIGILANCE SWIFTNESS STRENGTH);
447 RCAF (MONJAK ECOWI);
448 RCAF (IN AGEN DO PRAESTANTES);
449 RCAF (UNANIMI CUM RATIONE);
450 RCAF (BY AIR TO BATTLE);
870 RCN  (INTERCEDIMUS ET DELEMUS);
880 RCAF  (REPERER ET DETRUIRE);
922 RCN  (INDAGANDO ET PERCUTIENDO)


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## Zoomie (29 Jan 2007)

103 Sqn has been in existence in Newfoundland since 1947 - well before their entry into Canadian Confederation.  Hence the RAF Squadron numbering.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2007)

Then there is VU32, VU33 & MR880. Utility and Maritime Reconnaissance Squadrons


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## aesop081 (29 Jan 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Then there is VU32, VU33 & MR880. Utility and Maritime Reconnaissance Squadrons



Those sqn ( VU 32 and 33) were renumbered later on to a 400 series......880 remained until the end of the CP-121 Tracker


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## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2007)

Interestingly, we busted through our 400-449 allocation with all the Bomarc squadrons of the 60's.  450 Sqn was originally an Australian Squadron serving in North Africa, flying the P40 Warhawk, but disbanded in August of 1945.  

450 RAAF Squadron's motto would clearly not survive first contact with the press today...


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2007)

RCAF 450 Sqn Crest:


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2007)

A very brief history of many of the Sqns can be found at http://www.rcaf.com/


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Jan 2007)

So from Georges reply#5 if the military so chooses, can they reform the above mentioned squadrons?


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## Inch (29 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> A very brief history of many of the Sqns can be found at http://www.rcaf.com/



That's a pretty good link.

In a nutshell, if it's not a 400-450 numbered sqn, it's probably a hold over for history's sake from either RAF numbering (eg 103 Sqn) or RCN numbering (ie VU32 or 880 Sqn). Interesting tidbit, according to rcaf.com, 880 Sqn was never officially disbanded, it's just zero manned.

Then if you want to get really into Sqn numbering, the Air Maintenance Sqns are numbered after the Wing they serve, except for some reason 1AMS in 4 Wing Cold Lake. 12AMS is located on 12 Wing Shearwater.



			
				Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> So from Georges reply#5 if the military so chooses, can they reform the above mentioned squadrons?



Any one of them can be reactivated. 409 was recently reactivated as a Tactical Fighter Sqn when 441 and 416 were merged into 409.


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## George Wallace (29 Jan 2007)

Some of those Squadrons have been "Deactivated" and "Reactivated" in the past.  I know 444 Sqn was Disbanded in Lahr, and is now a SAR/Cbt Support Sqn in Goose Bay.



> Formed at St. Hubert on 1 March 1953, No. 444 Squadron bore the first new number (i.e. which had no war-time predecessor) in the post-war R.C.A.F. Six months later the squadron flew its Sabres overseas on "Leapfrog 4". The squadron joined No. 4 (Fighter) Wing at Baden-Soellingen, Germany in September. Selected as one of eight squadrons of the Air Division to be re-equipped with CF-104 Starfighter aircraft for a nuclear strike role, it was deactivated on 1 March 1963  and reactivated as Strike Attack on 27 May. When the Air Division was reduced to six squadrons, the squadron was once more deactivated on 1 April 1967. No. 444 Squadron was reformed as the air element of 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade group stationed in Lahr, West Germany. The unit was equipped with CH-112 Nomad and CH-136 Kiowa helicopters.
> 
> In 1993, the squadron formed again  at 5 Wing Goose Bay as 444 Combat Support Squadron equipped with the CH-146 Griffon.


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## 17thRecceSgt (29 Jan 2007)

Another link...

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/hist/rcafsqns_e.asp


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jan 2007)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Those sqn ( VU 32 and 33) were renumbered later on to a 400 series......880 remained until the end of the CP-121 Tracker



IIRC, VU 32 & VU 33 were disbanded in 92. 880 MRS was taken to zero strength in 1990, but has not been disbanded.


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## Inch (30 Jan 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> IIRC, VU 32 & VU 33 were disbanded in 92. 880 MRS was taken to zero strength in 1990, but has not been disbanded.



Another one was HS 50, it survived until 1974 when it was split into HS 423 and 443 Sqns. HS stood for helicopter anti-submarine sqn and was changed in the 90's to MH, maritime helicopter sqns.


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## Astrodog (30 Jan 2007)

A Slight hijack here, When 439 and 425 merged they kept the 425 name.. I Understand this was due to 425 being a historic french-Canadian squadron.. Now when 441 and 416 came together, would it not have been a better cost-saving measure to keep one of the squadrons active and have them consolodate into an existing squadron? 409 seems to be an odd choice, especially the motto of 'midnight is our noon' being a little odd for a non-night fighter specific TFS squadron. If I am not mistaken when the east coast CP-140 Squadrons merged they also kept one of the existing squadrons active, can anybody comment on this?


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## Inch (30 Jan 2007)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> A Slight hijack here, When 439 and 425 merged they kept the 425 name.. I Understand this was due to 425 being a historic french-Canadian squadron.. Now when 441 and 416 came together, would it not have been a better cost-saving measure to keep one of the squadrons active and have them consolodate into an existing squadron? 409 seems to be an odd choice, especially the motto of 'midnight is our noon' being a little odd for a non-night fighter specific TFS squadron. If I am not mistaken when the east coast CP-140 Squadrons merged they also kept one of the existing squadrons active, can anybody comment on this?



439 CS Sqn flys Griffons. 433 TFS was merged with 425 TFS. It's really not that expensive to stand up a Sqn, it was probably their choice and it came out of the two former Sqn's budgets. As for 409 being a night fighter Sqn, why is that so odd? Look at 406 Sqn, they were the first night fighter Sqn and they're now the Sea King Operational Training Sqn. And FYI, there really is no such thing as a night fighter sqn when NVGs come into play, on goggles, midnight truly is their noon.


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## Astrodog (30 Jan 2007)

Inch said:
			
		

> 433 TFS was merged with 425 TFS.



 Grrr.. I knew that! My mistake, thanks for the reply Inch.


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## x-zipperhead (7 Feb 2007)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> A Slight hijack here, When 439 and 425 merged they kept the 425 name.. I Understand this was due to 425 being a historic french-Canadian squadron.. Now when 441 and 416 came together, would it not have been a better cost-saving measure to keep one of the squadrons active and have them consolodate into an existing squadron? 409 seems to be an odd choice, especially the motto of 'midnight is our noon' being a little odd for a non-night fighter specific TFS squadron. If I am not mistaken when the east coast CP-140 Squadrons merged they also kept one of the existing squadrons active, can anybody comment on this?



You are correct 415 MP and 405 MP Sqn amalgamated in the summer of 2005, keeping 405's name and all that goes with it.  I have heard that 415 was actually just zero manned but I may stand to be corrected on that.


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## mover1 (7 Feb 2007)

Astrodog said:
			
		

> A Slight hijack here, When 439 and 425 merged they kept the 425 name.. I Understand this was due to 425 being a historic french-Canadian squadron.. Now when 441 and 416 came together, would it not have been a better cost-saving measure to keep one of the squadrons active and have them consolodate into an existing squadron? 409 seems to be an odd choice, especially the motto of 'midnight is our noon' being a little odd for a non-night fighter specific TFS squadron.



Then you would have had a whole lot of animosity between the loosing squadron and the remaining gaining unit. Better to make new one than to pro-mogulate ( I hope thats the proper use of the word) any bad blood and unit rivalry that may exist between the two....like the time a pig was let loos in the 416 office area by members of the 441 elite...there was some hell to pay for that.


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## x-zipperhead (7 Feb 2007)

I have never noticed any animosity or bad blood since 405 and 415 amalgamated, keeping 405's name and history.  Most guys just accept it and get on with it.  

As an aside 405 was kept over 415 due to seniority, albeit only 4 months worth.  405 was formed 23 Apr 41 and 415 formed on 20 Aug 41, making 405 the senior Sqn and the one to survive the amalgamation.  Sounds like reasonable logic to me and I was 415 (only for  about 10 months)  at the time.  Maybe others were more bothered by it, but I never heard much grumbling really.


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## mover1 (8 Feb 2007)

:warstory:
In Cold Lake there was a lot of Rivalry between 441 and 416.


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## aesop081 (8 Feb 2007)

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> I have never noticed any animosity or bad blood since 405 and 415 amalgamated, keeping 405's name and history.  Most guys just accept it and get on with it.



Thats because, my fellow Swordfish, 405 and 415 always worked together so much that they were called "820" sqn  ;D


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## x-zipperhead (8 Feb 2007)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Thats because, my fellow Swordfish, 405 and 415 always worked together so much that they were called "820" sqn  ;D



True.  Between the two of them in the later years they really only amounted to a single Sqn anyway.



			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> :warstory:
> In Cold Lake there was a lot of Rivalry between 441 and 416.



No doubt.  

I know that going through the archived pictures and scrapbooks and stuff, it appears that 405 and 415 had their share of rivalry, with the kidnapping of mascots, practical jokes and all the fun stuff that goes with it.  I think it was all in fun and no one took it too seriously.  But, alas, that was before my time so I couldn't say for sure.


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## hank011 (8 Feb 2007)

Maybe they realized it only took one squadron to fly one mission a day  : Now they have double the ground crew to sweep and mop the hangars. :dontpanic:


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## x-zipperhead (8 Feb 2007)

hank011 said:
			
		

> Maybe they realized it only took one squadron to fly one mission a day  :



No shortage of missions.  Often a shortage of airplanes.



			
				hank011 said:
			
		

> Now they have double the ground crew to sweep and mop the hangars. :dontpanic:



The number of groundcrew never changed as they are their own unit, 14 Air Maintenance Sqn.  The size of the fleet was unchanged, the number of aircrews was unchanged and the number of missions was unchanged.  The only thing that changed was that now instead of having 2 smaller Sqns we now have one larger one.  14 AMS are a group of hard working professionals who face many challenges in keeping our fleet servicable.  They do much more than sweep hangars.

Since your profile is blank, I am curious where you get your knowledge of Aurora operations.


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## hank011 (8 Feb 2007)

As an ex-avs tech. Best thing I ever did was get out of that make work program masquarading as a trade.


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## mover1 (8 Feb 2007)

14 AMS....yeah great bunch....I really hate it when they show up late with no chocks


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