# More than 6,700 veterans from Afghan war receiving federal assistance for PTSD



## daftandbarmy (22 Apr 2019)

More than 6,700 veterans from Afghan war receiving federal assistance for PTSD

Newly revealed figures show the number of veterans from the war in Afghanistan receiving federal support for mental-health conditions nearly doubled between March 2014 and March 2018.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/national/more-than-6-700-veterans-from-afghan-war-receiving-federal-assistance-for-ptsd-1.23798329


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## FJAG (22 Apr 2019)

I don't for a second want it to sound like I'm minimizing the issues at play here but I do wonder sometimes how much of the issue is influenced by both the public service nature of the job and the youth of the members.

When I went to work at NDHQ for three years back in 2006, I was gobsmacked by how many individuals in my relatively small sphere of contacts had key workers/leaders out on stress leave or were taking sick leave. It far exceeded what I was used to in my civilian business environment.

When I read your article I went to search for the statistics on individuals in the PS who were on stress leave and couldn't find any but did run across several articles in the nature of the fact that the PS generally takes far more sick days than the civilian sector and that young workers in particular (and those earning lower wages) were more likely to suffer from work related stress.

See for example:

https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/public-sector-workers-took-a-record-number-of-sick-days-last-year/

https://globalnews.ca/news/4138006/stress-causes-today/

While I don't for a minute doubt that there are many of our veterans have PTSD from actual traumatic events in Afghanistan, I do wonder how much of the rise in statistics is related to non-traumatic related stress events/situations which mirror what is happening amongst younger civilian workers and the PS sector. Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?

 :dunno:


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## mariomike (22 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?



I don't know. But, at our pensioner luncheons ( municipal PS ) the Chiefs tell us that PTSD claims have "taken off like wildfire".


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## Cloud Cover (22 Apr 2019)

That's happening with fire departments as well, apparently.   Do self employed people go on stress leave??


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## brihard (22 Apr 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I don't know. But, at our pensioner luncheons ( municipal PS ) the Chiefs tell us that PTSD claims have "taken off like wildfire".



Ontario passed legislation a few years ago that established presumptive causality for first responders diagnosed with PTSD. Police, Fire, or EMS diagnosed with PTSD are presumed to be work related for purposes of workers’ comp unless otherwise proven. That has had a significant impact, including a backlog of years’ worth of suffering individuals finally coming out of the woodwork and seeking help.


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## mariomike (22 Apr 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Do self employed people go on stress leave??



Only those who can afford it.   



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Ontario passed legislation a few years ago that established presumptive causality for first responders diagnosed with PTSD. Police, Fire, or EMS diagnosed with PTSD are presumed to be work related for purposes of workers’ comp unless otherwise proven. That has had a significant impact, including a backlog of years’ worth of suffering individuals finally coming out of the woodwork and seeking help.



On April 5th, 2016, the Ontario government passed Bill 163: "Supporting Ontario's First Responders Act (Posttraumatic Stress Disorder), 2016"
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-41/session-1/bill-163

As a "former Ontario first responder", the highlighted part caught my eye,

"For former first responders the statutory presumption will apply, provided that they worked in an occupation covered by the legislation within the 24 month period before the legislation came into force, , and provided that the PTSD is diagnosed within 2 years before or after the legislation comes into force."

I retired on 31 May, 2009. Just shy of 37 years. Never made a PTSD claim. Nobody did, back then. 

From what our chiefs tell us, they have received an avalanche of claims since the legislation kicked in.  

It was nice of them to pass the Act. But, it's only for today's generation.

The City now even has paid Stress Leave on demand for paramedics written into the collective agreement.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Apr 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> That's happening with fire departments as well, apparently.   *Do self employed people go on stress leave*??



If we do we generally go out of business, which is stressful, so we don't


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## FJAG (23 Apr 2019)

I used to hate December what with getting all your billings up to date and chasing down your accounts receivable. Took a lot of the fun out of Christmas. (Not that much fun for clients either)

On the other hand not getting your billings up to date and getting your accounts receivable in was really stressful.


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## mariomike (23 Apr 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> That has had a significant impact, including a backlog of years’ worth of suffering individuals finally coming out of the woodwork and seeking help.



And new jobs with the City,



> Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> While I don't for a minute doubt that there are many of our veterans have PTSD from actual traumatic events in Afghanistan, I do wonder how much of the rise in statistics is related to non-traumatic related stress events/situations which mirror what is happening amongst younger civilian workers and the PS sector. Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?
> 
> :dunno:



Good question. I asked myself that very question not too long ago after dealing with a few cases.  In all those cases the members were under 25, no deployments but were all requiring time off and away. 

Things that made me wonder:

Is it really a generational resilience thing or have mental health issues become more acceptable by this current generation and that getting help is not seen as a stigma as it once was and still is for older generations?

Is the rise in mental health cases a result of it becoming more understood and brought to light?  As opposed to something that was previously hidden but likely just as prevalent?  The post war years saw my grandfather try to take his life three times as a result of his war time experiences.

I am convinced that maybe some mental health issues have always been a thing but were misunderstood and swept under the rug.  The problem is that some of the things that helped in the past like strong social interactions, large extended families and actual live communication are no longer the norm.   Internet, electronics and a lack of physical connections may be things that are not helping.

Like you:   :dunno:


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## Navy_Pete (23 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I don't for a second want it to sound like I'm minimizing the issues at play here but I do wonder sometimes how much of the issue is influenced by both the public service nature of the job and the youth of the members.
> 
> When I went to work at NDHQ for three years back in 2006, I was gobsmacked by how many individuals in my relatively small sphere of contacts had key workers/leaders out on stress leave or were taking sick leave. It far exceeded what I was used to in my civilian business environment.
> 
> ...



From what I saw while on loan to another department in Ottawa they seem to do a good job in bringing in people for an entry level job and then slowly loading them up with work. If they show a reasonable amount of competence, they then continually load them up until they are working late, taking work home, and getting calls on the weekend.

Took a few of them aside to talk about getting a work life balance as they were being completely burned out, and it was to make a few executives look good (by promising to do the impossible in a short turn around).  For a few tasks where I would have expected them to have a team of three or four experienced people working full time for a few months, they tagged one or two juniour people and gave them a week or two. It was pretty crazy.

Personally think it's a result of under resourced departments being poorly managed, and taking advantage of keen new people that don't know how to say no, and genuinely want to do something to contribute to the well being of Canadians. Crazy deadlines, unrealistic expectations and power-hungry bureaucratic Napoleons are running them ragged, and add in fun stuff like not being paid because of Phoenix, and you had some complete stress bags running in the red all the time and eventually fall apart.

Also curious how much something like blackberries contribute to it; not too long ago, when you were out of the office, you were out of the office. If something came up, you get called back in, but that was for genuine issues. Now people are on electronic tethers, and are expected to answer the most mundane of BS at all hours of the day.  Great to have flexible work options, but I think it leads managers to take advantage of people and not respect down time.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Also curious how much something like blackberries contribute to it; not too long ago, when you were out of the office, you were out of the office. If something came up, you get called back in, but that was for genuine issues. Now people are on electronic tethers, and are expected to answer the most mundane of BS at all hours of the day.  Great to have flexible work options, but I think it leads managers to take advantage of people and not respect down time.



Good observation.  The same holds true for kids and bullying.  It used to be you saw your bully at school.  When you went home or away for the summer you could be in a safe space.  Now with texting and social media it can be a constant barrage regardless of where you are.


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## mariomike (23 Apr 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Now people are on electronic tethers, and are expected to answer the most mundane of BS at all hours of the day.



I used to love getting called at home. It was usually to answer a few questions about a job they had sent us on. 

That paid four hours OT at time and a half. Not for coming to work, just for answering the phone.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Apr 2019)

I know its non-welcome statement, but I know more than a few people whose PTSD claims are questionable at best.  

Its very difficult to medically determine if one is inflicted with PTSD ?  How is that diagnosis reached ? 

 Is there any fact checking to claims and incidents ?  

Not trying to be unsupportive to those who truly deal with the affliction, but ask most serving members and I bet they can probably tell of you of a couple of people who have made claims that are weak at best to straight out lies at worst.


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## TCM621 (23 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I don't for a second want it to sound like I'm minimizing the issues at play here but I do wonder sometimes how much of the issue is influenced by both the public service nature of the job and the youth of the members.
> 
> When I went to work at NDHQ for three years back in 2006, I was gobsmacked by how many individuals in my relatively small sphere of contacts had key workers/leaders out on stress leave or were taking sick leave. It far exceeded what I was used to in my civilian business environment.
> 
> ...



I would be curious to see the number of claims related to a specific trauma vs. generalized stress. PTSD is the disorder with the press and funding behind it, so if you are suffering any mental health problems related to service overseas, that is what you want to claim. It is a lot harder to claim the stress from being away from your family for 6 month, in an environment that is stressful by its very nature, while dealing with a boss who treats you like shit, so you figure out away to claim PTSD. Also, it is more acceptable (in the military) to have PTSD than it is to have depression or another more general type of stress related mental health issue. 

This isn't to diminish the issues those people deal with, I have lived with depression for years. Sometimes you have to play the system to get the benefits you need. We had to do the same thing to get my son benefits. He has a genetic disorder no one has heard about so getting funding was like pulling teeth. As soon as we got Autism as a secondary diagnosis, all of a sudden programs opened up for us.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I know its non-welcome statement, but I know more than a few people whose PTSD claims are questionable at best.
> 
> Its very difficult to medically determine if one is inflicted with PTSD ?  How is that diagnosis reached ?
> 
> ...



I would argue that you can have a certain percentage of any population that will try to scam any system. 

Before PTSD it might have been "sore" backs and "sore necks"  difficult to diagnose and prove but some people would fake it to get off work or go on disability.  Same for insurance scams etc etc. 

When money and paid time off are a factor, you will always have those that try to scam the system.  I don't think it is a new phenomenon.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Apr 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I would argue that you can have a certain percentage of any population that will try to scam any system.
> 
> Before PTSD it might have been "sore" backs and "sore necks"  difficult to diagnose and prove but some people would fake it to get off work or go on disability.  Same for insurance scams etc etc.
> 
> When money and paid time off are a factor, you will always have those that try to scam the system.  I don't think it is a new phenomenon.



No doubt in my mind.  NATO Knee has been a long standing RCN affliction.


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## Kokanee (23 Apr 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I would argue that you can have a certain percentage of any population that will try to scam any system.



I'm curious why a lot of the feedback here is "oh that number is way too high, must be scammers". Couldn't it in fact be that the war actually took a toll on people? This isn't anything new, PTSD is just a different name for "shell shock" etc from the 1st World War. The advent of mechanized/modern warfare is just something our slightly evolved primate brains aren't just able to cope with well.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> Couldn't it in fact be that the war actually took a toll on people? This isn't anything new, PTSD is just a different name for "shell shock" etc from the 1st World War.



Nobody here is arguing that part.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Apr 2019)

Kokanee said:
			
		

> I'm curious why a lot of the feedback here is "oh that number is way too high, must be scammers". Couldn't it in fact be that the war actually took a toll on people? This isn't anything new, PTSD is just a different name for "shell shock" etc from the 1st World War. The advent of mechanized/modern warfare is just something our slightly evolved primate brains aren't just able to cope with well.



I hardly think my post amounts to allot. 

Having said that, if one can claim "shell shock" (your words) after never hearing a shot in anger, I fear that we have become to weak a society.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Apr 2019)

I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).


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## Kokanee (23 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> if one can claim "shell shock" (your words) after never hearing a shot in anger, I fear that we have become to weak a society.



I would agree with this.


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## BDTyre (23 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).



Or even time frame of deployment. We had one guy that did the same job, two different tours and two totally different experiences.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2019)

Pointing out that there are probably scammers in the system is an acceptable statement, IMHO.

Saying you know people scamming and lying is a whole different thing. Now your calling an individual a liar without benefit of medical history or a physician's shingle on your wall. A layman making a highly complicated diagnoses on a spur of the moment, without proof....or thought.

PTS and 'shell shock' are not the same things. Many of the same problems will manifest themselves the same in both, for similar reasons. Causes may be similar. However, PTS has a much more expanded view of things than the simple diagnosis of 'shell shock' from WWI. Medicine has gotten a lot smarter. A person can accumulate PTS and never have a problem. Or they can accumulate it and single incident on deployment can bring it all bubbling up

There's also findings that are showing mefloquine poisioning can mimic PTS and the treatment for either are not the same.

So perhaps that is what the person is really suffering from, quininism, and not PTS. Either way, not having a medical background and knowing the specifics, anyone questioning individuals diagnosis's would do well to mind their own business.


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## meni0n (23 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).



Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

We should also be careful as to how we classify PTSD within the OSI (operational stress injury) group of mental health issues that afflict CAF members.   PTSD is but one type of OSI but others also exist.  

One can get an OSI from a variety of operational experiences and is not limited to combat.  

One can get PTSD from a normal car accident but may not be necessarily an OSI.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Apr 2019)

Fishbone Jones said:
			
		

> Pointing out that there are probably scammers in the system is an acceptable statement, IMHO.
> 
> Saying you know people scamming and lying is a whole different thing. Now your calling an individual a liar without benefit of medical history or a physician's shingle on your wall. A layman making a highly complicated diagnoses on a spur of the moment, without proof....or thought.
> 
> ...



I am really tired of pussy footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot.  You can call me out on not being a medical professional all you want but when I watched a guy get a service dog, the sacrifice medal and a medical release after years of adjusted work schedules.  This guy pulled all kinds of stories out of his ass about what he did over seas.  Even changed his trade and posted pics of SOF guys with identifiers blurred claiming to him.  When I brought it up, I was told the same line you are feeding me.  That's just one I can give you bakers dozen more.  

A close friend of mine and I joke that we seem to be the only people we know who haven't put in some kind of medical claim, let alone PTSD from our AFG tours.  

Its happening more than most people want to admit.   

I get it.  Its a serious issue.  I had another close friend of mine put his head on the tracks in front of a Go Train after we came home.  Its serious, I get it.  And thats why I am so pissed when I know people are abusing it.  And its my opinion that abuse is deep and wider spread than people want to admit. 



			
				meni0n said:
			
		

> Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.



I don't want to compare any role.  I just want to dissect the volume of claims and see what roles they are coming from.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> We should also be careful as to how we classify PTSD within the OSI (operational stress injury) group of mental health issues that afflict CAF members.   PTSD is but one type of OSI but others also exist.
> 
> One can get an OSI from a variety of operational experiences and is not limited to combat.
> 
> One can get PTSD from a normal car accident but may not be necessarily an OSI.



I have no quarrel with definitions.


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## Remius (23 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I would really like to see 6700 number broken up by role during their deployment(s).  I.e. actively engaged in a fighting organization in the theater,  Combat Support (Convoys, ect) and Rear Echelon Support pers (i.e. KAF).



There would be value in that sort of thing.  Also a breakdown of people who might be more prone to OSIs if that is in fact possible.  I know two guys that were having issues before they left and came back with even more.  

So many complicated factors.


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## Pieman (23 Apr 2019)

> I am really tired of ***** footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot.  You can call me out on not being a medical professional all you want but when I watched a guy get a service dog, the sacrifice medal and a medical release after years of adjusted work schedules.  This guy pulled all kinds of stories out of his *** about what he did over seas.  Even changed his trade and posted pics of SOF guys with identifiers blurred claiming to him.  When I brought it up, I was told the same line you are feeding me.  That's just one I can give you bakers dozen more.



The hunt for the 'cheater' of the system goes on.

Consider this: A full evaluation for OSI isn't a check in the box. The real diagnosis takes many hours of interaction with a therapist and psychologist. The fact of the matter is they are going into the appointments and putting in the time. If you think they are tricking these professional psychologists you are *dead wrong*. It doesn't need to make sense to you, so stop trying. You are not qualified to ascertain the situation one way or another. 

Those that tell you they are cheating the system may in fact be telling you that so you don't think less of them. It doesn't mean that they are not injured. It may be simply their way of dealing with it at the time. Like any major trauma in life, there is a path from denial to acceptance. People will go to great lengths to maintain their denial and fabricate any kind of story to support it.

If you think you are helping the situation with your personal sleuthing and arm chair analysis of people is helping, I assure you that you are wrong. If you are so deeply concerned with the affairs of other people go hang out in a high school parking lot. You can gossip all you like there.


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## PuckChaser (23 Apr 2019)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Combat Support came out of KAF. People are different and react differently to stress. These statistics will serve to prove absolutely nothing. It would be really bad form If you're going to start comparing people's roles and then start dismissing their claims just because they spent less time outside the wire than others.


Let's not jump to conclusions here. If KAF folks had a higher percentage of OSI claims than Combat Arms, then maybe we're doing a piss poor job preparing those folks mentally for a warzone? Or creating toxic work environments that add unnecessary stressors? Or maybe they're more likely to have poor work-rest cycles to keep the beans and bullets being pushed forward?

I think we do a terrible job with mental health in the CAF, and IMO it starts with the lack of any meaningful screening by a psychologist at the recruiting center.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Apr 2019)

[quote author=FJAG]
While I don't for a minute doubt that there are many of our veterans have PTSD from actual traumatic events in Afghanistan, I do wonder how much of the rise in statistics is related to non-traumatic related stress events/situations which mirror what is happening amongst younger civilian workers and the PS sector. *Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?*

 :dunno:
[/quote]

Unequivocally yes. Society today is less resilient and people seem to have a much more difficult time dealing with day to day stressors. I'm not sure where the blame lies but it seems like young adults can't cope very well with a lot of things.
On that note I'm not sure if it's a positive sign that new CAF members are taking their health and well-being super seriously but more and more it seems like new recruits showing up at my units first question is "how do I make an appointment with VA to deal with all the injuries I suffered on basic training and battle school". Then it's MELs, Physio appointments and padre trips. Everyone's got problems, myself included, but the volume frequency and priority of going to the VA/medical system is shocking.


For PTSD, unequivocally yes some people are faking and gaming the system. It's not up to me (or anyone here) to play detective. But when my neighbor smacks around his wife _"because of all the dead children he seen on patrols"_ when the guys never left the wire I'm not going to go along with it. And chances are I'm going to say_ bulllllllshit _out loud.  I also don't have to buy in to guys and girls lying about their service "because PTSD".

I get the premise that questioning PTSD claims may prevent members legitimately suffering from coming forward. Agreed. No one wants that. On the other hand I think what's equally damaging is when someone appears to be full of it and everyone around them looks at them like they're full of shit. That's going to prevent people from coming forward too because no one wants to be that guy that people don't believe (because someones making a fool of themselves).


There's a very unhealthy mindset where members deploying almost expect to get PTSD.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Apr 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Let's not jump to conclusions here. If KAF folks had a higher percentage of OSI claims than Combat Arms, then maybe we're doing a piss poor job preparing those folks mentally for a warzone? Or creating toxic work environments that add unnecessary stressors? Or maybe they're more likely to have poor work-rest cycles to keep the beans and bullets being pushed forward?
> 
> I think we do a terrible job with mental health in the CAF, and IMO it starts with the lack of any meaningful screening by a psychologist at the recruiting center.



I've read a few places that members based in KAF suffered higher instances of PTSD than those outside the wire. Explanations included:
-combat arms types are tougher trained and more mentally resilient
-not being able to retaliate to being attacked (getting hit with rockets and just having to hide compared to, say, shot at and able to return fire) leads to a sense of helplessness. 
-combat arms types are more inclined to hide their issues because of the stigma of PTSD

I would have assumed the opposite would be true, those outside the wire suffered more but the numbers say I'm wrong.
I remember reading point #2 (not being able to retaliate) was something a lot of psychologists that studied combat supported.


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## RCDtpr (23 Apr 2019)

One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.

Hardest moment of deployment for me........

On a a serious note, I’ve had more, than a few conversations with people who’ve been overseas and did not know I had deployed.  Interestingly enough, the biggest war stories of heroism I’ve ever heard typically came from KAFers.  Wasn’t aware KAF was the scene of 24/7 fighting with insurgents breaching the walls daily......at least that’s what they told me.  Probably explains their PTSD


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## meni0n (24 Apr 2019)

ExRCDcpl said:
			
		

> One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.
> 
> Hardest moment of deployment for me........
> 
> On a a serious note, I’ve had more, than a few conversations with people who’ve been overseas and did not know I had deployed.  Interestingly enough, the biggest war stories of heroism I’ve ever heard typically came from KAFers.  Wasn’t aware KAF was the scene of 24/7 fighting with insurgents breaching the walls daily......at least that’s what they told me.  Probably explains their PTSD



So what exactly is your point in connection with the topic in question. Apart from demonstrating your air of superiority when comparing yourself to those deployed to KAF and also trying to disparage and minimize their contribution by insinuating how cushy KAF was so those claiming PTSD  if they deployed only to KAF must be liars.


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## RCDtpr (24 Apr 2019)

meni0n said:
			
		

> So what exactly is your point in connection with the topic in question. Apart from demonstrating your air of superiority when comparing yourself to those deployed to KAF and also trying to disparage and minimize their contribution by insinuating how cushy KAF was so those claiming PTSD  if they deployed only to KAF must be liars.


So because KAF was in fact a cushy go, that somehow minimizes the work people did there?  Not sure how you took that away from my post.  While you’re quick to throw out my “air of superiority” you just demonstrated quite the inferiority complex here.

Further, while I’m not going to flat out say all individuals from KAF claiming PTSD are liars (the medical staff for instance saw some pretty horrible stuff) you’re also not going to convince me otherwise that a large number of individuals who suffer from PTSD based on their time sitting in supply etc. there are legitimate.  Sorry if this is offensive to you or anyone else but that’s my personal opinion on the matter.

KAF was not an unsafe place to be and far too many people simply hide behind and accept the explanation that “everyone perceives things differently” and it’s a crock.

Again, are all individuals who spent their time in KAF and suffer from PTSD faking it?  Of course not.  Are a good number of them not legitimate though?  I believe so.


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## meni0n (24 Apr 2019)

ExRCDcpl said:
			
		

> So because KAF was in fact a cushy go, that somehow minimizes the work people did there?  Not sure how you took that away from my post.  While you’re quick to throw out my “air of superiority” you just demonstrated quite the inferiority complex here.
> 
> Further, while I’m not going to flat out say all individuals from KAF claiming PTSD are liars (the medical staff for instance saw some pretty horrible stuff) you’re also not going to convince me otherwise that a large number of individuals who suffer from PTSD based on their time sitting in supply etc. there are legitimate.  Sorry if this is offensive to you or anyone else but that’s my personal opinion on the matter.
> 
> ...



I don't have an air of inferiority, I just dislike the attitude perpetuated by people that were based outside the wire that those in KAF were "WOGs", which basically what you were insinuating in your earlier comments and have reiterated in your latest ones. What you did is minimize contribution of a whole group of people because of your perception of how much harder your tour was because you were out in a FOB and then you go on to say that you believe that soldiers who were based in KAF that claim PTSD are mostly liars. You clearly have no idea what most of the NSE did and then use that ignorance to form your opinion. You could have kept it to yourself but you decided to come to the thread and throw those cheap comments in here.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I am really tired of ***** footing around this.  Its happening and I think its happening allot.



I rationalize it with the thought that if even only one life is saved, it's worth it.


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## BDTyre (24 Apr 2019)

ExRCDcpl said:
			
		

> One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.
> 
> Hardest moment of deployment for me........



And in all seriousness there was an individual who had an office job at KAF that had to be pulled aside by the MPs after throwing what can only be described as a temper tantrum at having to wait an additional 15 minutes after the all-sounded to get his Tim Horton's coffee he had paid for prior to the rocket warning sounding.


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Apr 2019)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> And in all seriousness there was an individual who had an office job at KAF that had to be pulled aside by the MPs after throwing what can only be described as a temper tantrum at having to wait an additional 15 minutes after the all-sounded to get his Tim Horton's coffee he had paid for prior to the rocket warning sounding.



Don't know if you are relating this as an (sarcastic?) example of how hard it was at KAF or as an example of a potential mental health episode.  On the face of it, the immediate reaction of most would probably be "what an arsehole", however my immediate thought when I read this was "hmm, manifestation of stress reaction?, how did this person fare after they got home".  See the difference.


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## stoker dave (24 Apr 2019)

I was deployed to Gulf War I on one of the three ships.   I will not compare Gulf War I to anything else (such as foot patrols in Afghanistan) but it was certainly stressful enough.  

Of the three ships (and two crews counting the Protecteur rotation) that was about 1,500 sailors at sea.  

I am not aware of a single PTSD incident, report or diagnosis during or afterwards.  Maybe there were some; but I am not aware of any.  I stayed with my ship for about a year after returning to Halifax. 

So, if we apply some statistics, how many of those 1,500 might have had or been diagnosed with PTSD?


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## Staff Weenie (24 Apr 2019)

Reading through some of these comments, I am not sure exactly what to say, but I feel compelled to wade in with a bit more background than many.

I work at CAF TG HQ, and have for many years now. Every day I see Integrated Transition Plans done for the most seriously ill and inured people we have. We use this means to determine a safe and appropriate time to enable their transition to civilian life. I see about 360 of these files per year. I have also worked at TC Ottawa, when we reached 200 posted in members. I interviewed many of them during their in-clearance. Of all the people we support, my gut instinct tells me that ~75% are for MH issues. This is a very real problem.

Are they faking it? Are they deliberately trying to make it look worse than it is to get more money from VAC? I can't give you exact numbers - I don't believe we collect that data because it's darned hard to prove - but I suspect that probably a few are. My gut instinct with all of my contact with our people was that maybe as many as 5% could fall into that category. And yet I am willing to accept that if I can reach not only the other 95%, but even more so if I can help find all of the people who are still too ashamed or too frightened of stigma to come forward. This is a very real problem.

I've had to review a large BOI on a suicide, and dozens of SI reports on suicide attempts, all for mental health reasons. Sometimes, after a death, I am asked to review every note we have on somebody, even look at their social media accounts to see what we might have missed. I've sat with Combat Arms soldiers, and those of the Combat Service Support trades, as the poured their story out with tears. I've talked to the spouses, and even the children or parents. I've seen the desperation, the confusion, and sometimes the desire to end the pain. This is a very real problem.

I also know, better than most, what they are going through. I've stood with a loaded pistol and thought that one quick action, and the endless nightmares are finally going to be over. I was one of those employed in KAF - about eight months in the R3MMU. I've had people tell me 'you have no right to have PTSD', and 'you guys just drank Timmies and played volleyball at the boardwalk'. I've heard all the derogatory comments, faced the criticism, and reached a conclusion - this is a very real problem. BUT - it's one that we can work on. What does it take - people to stop trying to judge or label their brothers and sisters - the vast majority are not faking it. Don't create a pecking order for casualties - suffering is suffering, regardless of where it came from. Never drive them back under a rock. The longer it takes for them to come forward, the less likely that they can fully recover. Never be divisive, never stigmatize, just accept that there is an issue, analyze it, find solutions on how we can better prepare the young troops coming in today.


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## BeyondTheNow (24 Apr 2019)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> Reading through some of these comments, I am not sure exactly what to say, but I feel compelled to wade in with a bit more background than many.
> 
> I work at CAF TG HQ, and have for many years now. Every day I see Integrated Transition Plans done for the most seriously ill and inured people we have. We use this means to determine a safe and appropriate time to enable their transition to civilian life. I see about 360 of these files per year. I have also worked at TC Ottawa, when we reached 200 posted in members. I interviewed many of them during their in-clearance. Of all the people we support, my gut instinct tells me that ~75% are for MH issues. This is a very real problem.
> 
> ...



Thank you


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## BDTyre (24 Apr 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Don't know if you are relating this as an (sarcastic?) example of how hard it was at KAF or as an example of a potential mental health episode.  On the face of it, the immediate reaction of most would probably be "what an arsehole", however my immediate thought when I read this was "hmm, manifestation of stress reaction?, how did this person fare after they got home".  See the difference.



Maybe it's a bit of both? There's always two sides to a story and the side we heard were of the "what an ass" side, but who knows the history of the individual? Was this their first tour, or second or third? Were they about to rotate out or had they just got there? Was it just someone having a temper tantrum because the Timmy's workers were rude, or was it the sign of a bigger problem?


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2019)

An interesting article about the US experience:

“PTSD is a real thing, without a doubt,” says McNally. “But as a diagnosis, PTSD has become so flabby and overstretched, so much a part of the culture, that we are almost certainly mistaking other problems for PTSD, and thus mistreating them.”

https://www.wired.com/2012/03/the-ptsd-trap/


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## PuckChaser (24 Apr 2019)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> I was one of those employed in KAF - about eight months in the R3MMU. I've had people tell me 'you have no right to have PTSD', and 'you guys just drank Timmies and played volleyball at the boardwalk'. I've heard all the derogatory comments, faced the criticism, and reached a conclusion - this is a very real problem.



You'd have been well within your rights to punch those individuals in the face. I spent 8 hours on sentry at the R3 once, and never wanted to go back after hearing the entire trauma care of an American crew who were in a HMMVW that struck an IED.

We have to be careful to apply "KAF people can't have PTSD" because of the absolute massive breadth of jobs completed on that airfield. There's a huge difference between helpdesk at RC(S) HQ, and the men/women trying to fix shattered soldiers from the battlefield.


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## Milhouser911 (24 Apr 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Let's not jump to conclusions here. If KAF folks had a higher percentage of OSI claims than Combat Arms, then maybe we're doing a piss poor job preparing those folks mentally for a warzone? Or creating toxic work environments that add unnecessary stressors? Or maybe they're more likely to have poor work-rest cycles to keep the beans and bullets being pushed forward?
> 
> I think we do a terrible job with mental health in the CAF, and IMO it starts with the lack of any meaningful screening by a psychologist at the recruiting center.



I'll take this line of reasoning in a slightly different direction - as a CSS guy who got dropped out to a FOB, doing daily OP and CP shifts, after going through workup (If you can call what CSS guys do "workup") expecting to be driving a forklift on KAF.  I arrived COMPLETELY unprepared.  We did C7 on an expedient range on Suffield (25M), a no-fail rundown in Wx, and a no-fail live pairs (about 4 minutes from start to finish).  I was given a pistol when I arrived at the FOB - I sure didn't touch one on workup.  I sat a minimum of 3 hours a day behind an ITAS, C6, Coral-C, Vector binos, and/or NODLER, all equipment I didn't touch on workup.  I didn't know how range cards worked when I showed up.  Communicating over a radio, both from the OP and during CP duty?  Of course we didn't cover that.  We may have done organized PT about 6 times during a 9 month workup period, with the majority of our time spent in a canteen, being told we couldn't go to the gym because "something might come up".  *NOTE:  I believe we did TOET on pistol/C6/C9/84/LAW and foreign weapons famil, but we didn't fire anything, and it was all on the floor of the LTF for a small portion of an afternoon - effectively nothing

The only valuable thing I did on workup was TCCC, which luckily got me talking on the radio enough to be functional when dropped behind one on tour.  

I'm incredibly lucky that this was for a quiet winter tour - but the fact remains that the army did a huge disservice to all the CSS guys who were dropped in FOBS and other semi-austere places with zero legit training or prep.  Mental preparation?  We didn't have any preparation to speak of. 

(This post is as accurate as I can make it 10 years after the fact through a lens of bitterness)


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## daftandbarmy (24 Apr 2019)

Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> I'll take this line of reasoning in a slightly different direction - as a CSS guy who got dropped out to a FOB, doing daily OP and CP shifts, after going through workup (If you can call what CSS guys do "workup") expecting to be driving a forklift on KAF.  I arrived COMPLETELY unprepared.  We did C7 on an expedient range on Suffield (25M), a no-fail rundown in Wx, and a no-fail live pairs (about 4 minutes from start to finish).  I was given a pistol when I arrived at the FOB - I sure didn't touch one on workup.  I sat a minimum of 3 hours a day behind an ITAS, C6, Coral-C, Vector binos, and/or NODLER, all equipment I didn't touch on workup.  I didn't know how range cards worked when I showed up.  Communicating over a radio, both from the OP and during CP duty?  Of course we didn't cover that.  We may have done organized PT about 6 times during a 9 month workup period, with the majority of our time spent in a canteen, being told we couldn't go to the gym because "something might come up".  *NOTE:  I believe we did TOET on pistol/C6/C9/84/LAW and foreign weapons famil, but we didn't fire anything, and it was all on the floor of the LTF for a small portion of an afternoon - effectively nothing
> 
> The only valuable thing I did on workup was TCCC, which luckily got me talking on the radio enough to be functional when dropped behind one on tour.
> 
> ...



This. And thank you for sharing this experience.

Leadership needs to ensure everyone is prepared for war, not just the 'bayonets'. Anything else is simply a failure of command.

In Northern Ireland, everyone in theatre either went through the 'full meal deal' workup with the BGps, or did an 'in country' package of two or three weeks before joining the operational units. With few exceptions, our support trades were as dialed in as our 'gravel bellies', some moreso especially the tpt, sigs, int and med personnel. 

Of course, this policy was learned the hard way, unfortunately.


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## SupersonicMax (24 Apr 2019)

Mental preparation for combat is not something that is done a couple of months before going.  It’s ingrained into someone over years of training where dealing with death (albeit simulated) and danger become part of normal life.  It is an attitude that is bred.  In our PC world where we cannot be seen as “agressive”, it is difficult to teach that to everyone and the expectations of combat are unclear to most.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Apr 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Mental preparation for combat is not something that is done a couple of months before going.  It’s ingrained into someone over years of training where dealing with death (albeit simulated) and danger become part of normal life.  It is an attitude that is bred.  In our PC world where we cannot be seen as “agressive”, it is difficult to teach that to everyone and the expectations of combat are unclear to most.



I beg to differ. 

I've led loads of 17 - 20 year old soldiers (and Marines), men and women, who came directly from basic training (6 months), through work up training (2-3 months) and into a sh*t storm where everyone, and everything, was trying to kill them - and sometimes succeeded.

They were splendid... every last one of them. It was a humbling experience to command them.

An anthropologist can probably tell you better than I why that works so well, but it does.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Apr 2019)

ExRCDcpl said:
			
		

> One time when I went back to KAF for the night, Pizza Hut was out of pizzas.
> 
> Hardest moment of deployment for me........



Well you ARE an ex Dragoon so I can understand how upsetting the pizza thing is 

Just kidding but seriously, combat arms signed up to do combat arms things.
Combat arms love telling everyone they were at a FOB or COP and make sure everyone knows they're combat arms. 

They love pointing out shit to do with KAF. Pizza, massage parlour, relative safety.  Thing is combat arms would spend a few days in KAF and whine bitch and complain about it the whole time. How shitty it was and all the rules. Couldn't wait to get the #$*& out of KAF and back out. 
Fobs and cops wouldn't have existed without KAF.

Staff Weenie-  amazing post and insight, thanks for sharing that.



			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> An interesting article about the US experience:
> 
> “PTSD is a real thing, without a doubt,” says McNally. “But as a diagnosis, PTSD has become so flabby and overstretched, so much a part of the culture, that we are almost certainly mistaking other problems for PTSD, and thus mistreating them.”



This is one of the most insightful things I've read about PTSD in a long time. 





			
				Milhouser911 said:
			
		

> I'll take this line of reasoning in a slightly different direction - as a CSS guy who got dropped out to a FOB, doing daily OP and CP shifts, after going through workup (If you can call what CSS guys do "workup") expecting to be driving a forklift on KAF.



I've commented about seeing that stuff on this forum before. People deploying outside the wire who never fired their gun. Didn't know there was more to the body Armor than just the shell. Had zero training. Lots of people slipped through the cracks.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Apr 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I beg to differ.
> 
> I've led loads of 17 - 20 year old soldiers (and Marines), men and women, who came directly from basic training (6 months), through work up training (2-3 months) and into a **** storm where everyone, and everything, was trying to kill them - and sometimes succeeded.
> 
> ...



Being effective in your job doesn't mean you are resilient to the effects of war.  Only training and experience can develop this.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Are we as a society becoming less resilient? Are we living in a society where even day-to-day stressors are more than a significant number of us can cope with?
> 
> :dunno:



I don't know either.

There is now a medical form where I used to work, to be signed by the applicant's family physician, 

"The applicant is being considered for a position where performance in a high-­‐stress setting is part of the workplace.

Do you have any concerns regarding the applicant's abilities, judgement, or mental competence, particularly in view of the potential workplace?"

Not sure if that question is being routinely asked of family doctors by other potential employers?


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## Loachman (25 Apr 2019)

And how could they predict how any given person could react under circumstances unimaginable to that doctor?


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## Loachman (25 Apr 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Only training and experience can develop this.



Lots of Private (or Corps-equivalent) Soldiers go into combat with very little experience.

And "experience" can often mean multiple tours in various shitholes with stressors building up.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> And how could they predict how any given person could react under circumstances unimaginable to that doctor?



I guess they are curious if the applicant has a history of PTSD?


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## Loachman (25 Apr 2019)

How many applicants would have much of a history of anything?

This just seems like a pointless CYA thing to me.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> This just seems like a pointless CYA thing to me.



Their point might be to save City taxpayers liability.

Since Queen's Park passed presumptive legislation in 2016, PTSD claims against the department have apparently "taken off like a tsunami". 
Sometimes described as a "wildfire". 

HR then has to find them "suitable", permanent, new jobs on the City payroll: "If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated."

Until they retire, or die.

If an applicant has a history of PTSD, perhaps with a former employer, I can see why the dept. might be interested.


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## TCM621 (26 Apr 2019)

Loachman said:
			
		

> And how could they predict how any given person could react under circumstances unimaginable to that doctor?



They can't but they can make an assessment based on other factors which relate to a person's ability to handle stress. For example, do they have a heart condition, high blood pressure, are they currently on medication for anxiety, do they have a history of unmanaged depression, etc. It is a good starting point that minimizes the chances of getting someone predisposed to stress related reactions in to a job not suited for them.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2019)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> It is a good starting point that minimizes the chances of getting someone predisposed to stress related reactions in to a job not suited for them.



In addition to the question asked of the applicant's family doctor, it is important applicants know what they are getting into.

There are too many horror stories of successful college graduates, who find out they are not cut out for the job.

The department has pre-employment psychological screening. Such as excluding applicants that demonstrate lower resiliency traits or who were otherwise unstable from an emotional/psychological level to engage in the work. 

They also use the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI).


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## upandatom (26 Apr 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Also curious how much something like blackberries contribute to it; not too long ago, when you were out of the office, you were out of the office. If something came up, you get called back in, but that was for genuine issues. Now people are on electronic tethers, and are expected to answer the most mundane of BS at all hours of the day.  Great to have flexible work options, but I think it leads managers to take advantage of people and not respect down time.



I have to agree with this, 

I left the military I had a Bb, was on call 1 week out of 4. Pretty steadily called upon too. 

Same thing civi side, my work days are pretty much 12 hour days or longer.

With this remote access people are working non stop. Not only military, but civi side. 

It’s a combination of stressors that cause more and more to come out. 

Also- have to look at how many were on Mefloquine, as it has been standard practice so far to treat any traumatic incident as PTSD, with counselling and mind and body numbing agents, when in fact for years it could of been due to Mefloquine poisoning.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2019)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Also- have to look at how many were on Mefloquine, as it has been standard practice so far to treat any traumatic incident as PTSD, with counselling and mind and body numbing agents, when in fact for years it could of been due to Mefloquine poisoning.



For reference to the discussion,

Mefloquine (a.k.a Lariam) anti-malarial in CF use (merged) 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/17103.0
5 pages.


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## DannyMcGun (11 Nov 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> For reference to the discussion,
> 
> Mefloquine (a.k.a Lariam) anti-malarial in CF use (merged)
> https://navy.ca/forums/threads/17103.0
> 5 pages.



Thank you for this info

As for PTSD/OSI ...I was diagnosed with an OSI ...I can say the myriad of Psychiatrists/Mental Health Specialists/and everyone and their dog assessed me at various intervals. While I was serving and after. Again 2 years later for a re-assessment and ongoing through VAC Rehabilitation Program and yet again by secondary doctors/psychiatrists/psychologists at various clinics and PTSD/Depression/Anxiety programs in the community. I'd say that's pretty thorough don't you? Ok, so my job as Combat Engineer assigned to C-IED was, well, non-stressful. We'll put that aside. VAC did not accredit PTSD to my military job. Apparently my easy going nature and constant smiling and joking about shit that happened with inappropriate humour, was an underlying symptom of years of accumulated numbing from my time as a Paramedic in civy life. So while they concluded I had what they called "complex PTSD" attributed to my pre-military career, it was not attributed to operational stress. I personally never claimed or bagged what I was going through with a label, I just wanted some help with what was obviously affecting my life in a very negative way with a suicide attempt, severe depression, and for some "unknown" reason sudden loud noises that would send my heart through my throat and put me in high adrenaline mode that scared my wife and generally anyone near me. I just wanted help. Period. From locking myself in the bathroom and just laying on the cool tiles and trying to get thoughts and very dangerous ideas out of my head. A friend called VAC who called the RCMP who took me away to emergency in handcuffs under the ACT and I sat in a psych ward medicated thinking how the hell did it get to this. I was though, wasn't I? Well, I fought VAC for years, and they conceded on Persistent Depressive Disorder coupled with Acute Anxiety. PTSD was concluded by WorksafeBC attributed to my civilian career. What I am trying to convey is that VAC can be quite thorough. It may take years of diagnosis, but keep at it. We are complex and even the toughest and most trained have a limit. For me it was the futility to save lives that caused the depression and constant replay and looping and self-deprecation that led to self-destructive behavior. The ones coming forward with issues, be it "legit" or not, still moves the stigma associated with mental illness forward into the 21st century. Concentrate on your needs and what help you need instead of worrying what may or not be happening in the system. I am out of the military now and back to work in an Occupational Health & Safety Field in construction as a Safety Officer, and my First Aid room is always open. Why? Because as humans we need to care about one another, without strings attached. There might me that guy that feigns some malady and tries to get a go home card from me, but we can't stop being human and judge every one. Les't we be judged. Do what we can to heal from the wounds, physical and mental, and always moving things forward to make life better for all. Categorizing jobs, positions, military elements, gender, religion, age, mental health...only keeps us where we already are.  To me all soldiers/veterans deserve a "thank you for your Service". Ok. That's my Remembrance day rant. I'm getting old ok  Hope EVERYONE has a great REMEMBRANCE DAY! Even the alpha jackasses that troll around. We get it... HOORHAAA!! 😜


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## Cloud Cover (11 Nov 2019)

Hey Danny. Thank You for Your Service.  

Cheers,

Fred


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## Pieman (12 Nov 2019)

Well said, Danny. Like you said, you got to keep at it. The government is slow and stupid, the only way to beat it and get what you need is through steady persistence. 

CHIMO!


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## CanScotPatricia (12 Jul 2020)

I’m curious, what does one do if he discovers that someone he knows has submitted a completely fabricated PTSD claim based on a sexual assault (that never occurred). Does VAC have a fraud reporting section? It’s a criminal act I suspect, would notifying the civilian police in that jurisdiction be the way to go?


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2020)

I'm not sure if VAC would want to even deal with that since the proof would probably have to be in writing somewhere and it might be bad optics for them "going after sexual assault victims trying to keep benefits from them". 

If it was me and I had *credible* evidence of someone defrauding the system I would call VACs 800 number and tell a case worker. Maybe they follow up, maybe they don't. You get to sleep at night knowing you tried to right a wrong.


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## brihard (12 Jul 2020)

CanScotPatricia said:
			
		

> I’m curious, what does one do if he discovers that someone he knows has submitted a completely fabricated PTSD claim based on a sexual assault (that never occurred). Does VAC have a fraud reporting section? It’s a criminal act I suspect, would notifying the civilian police in that jurisdiction be the way to go?



Police would would want the report to come from VAC as the the ‘victim’ of such a fraud, so your start point would be to convince someone at VAC that you’re on to something.

I trust that in accusing someone of fraudulently claiming a sexual assault, your facts are absolutely solid, and beyond ‘he said/she said’. They will have to be very compelling.


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