# Fire Department / stationed



## bradlupa (8 Mar 2009)

Just wondering where everyone is either stationed or what fire department you are at.


Myself 

Port Hope Fire Department Station #3

We run about 1000 calls between all 3 halls and about 70% are medical and 10% fire releated calls the others are auto ex and rescue calls


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## ffhammer (24 Mar 2009)

Sudbury Fire Department.
We're an amalgamated city. 110 full time and 350 volunteers out of 25 stations.
About 5000 calls a year.
I'm a training officer at HQ (going back to suppressions any day now).


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## CupFrantic (27 Mar 2009)

hey thats wierd.

Station 12 Dowling. Talk about a small world. Well atleast the sudbury area.


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## pbi (30 Apr 2009)

A question for the three firefighters who posted below. How do the volunteers and the career firefighters get along in mixed departments, in your experience? I ask because when I was stationed in the US (97/98), I was a trainee VFF with the local VFD. Because of increasing urban development in the Washington DC area, and a growing shortage of volunteers in the commuting population, the County had put one career engine crew on days in each volunteer hall. Us VFFs still did evenings, weekends, stat hols and turned out the second-due apparatus that was not manned by career FFs. The relationship between career and VFF was horrible. The career FFs wanted nothing to do with the VFFs whom they considered to be "amateurs" and "scabs", while the VFFs resented the career FFs using the buildings, equipment and rigs that the VFDs owned. (In our County, as in much of the US, the VFDs were community organizations providing a public service, not municipal employees as they seem to be in Ontario.  The trucks, stations, etc did not belong to the County and VFFs were not paid any money).

How well does it work in your Depts?

Cheers


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## mariomike (30 Apr 2009)

I'm not a firefighter.
I work for a city that has never had part-time Police Officers, Firefighters or Paramedics.
This is what the Toronto Professional Firefighters Association has to say on the subject:
http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/1787/63/

To the editor,

I read with interest the opinions of Peter Sells on unions and their stance on volunteer fire fighters. Of particular interest to me was his opinion that the union stance is an apparent infringement on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  As President of the Toronto Fire Fighters, the local he is affiliated with, I would like to offer my response in regard to his rights and responsibilities as a member of our union.

To begin, I would like to correct the misnomer of volunteers. The two-hat firefighters in question are paid, on-call part-time fire- fighters. There is nothing voluntary or necessarily noble in their cause. This is commerce in its base form; supplying a service for a fee.

The second misconception is that the union is some third-party entity dictating its will. The union is the collective will of the firefighters that make up that jurisdiction. In other words, when Brother Sells speaks of the union he is speaking of himself. It is not a separate entity. As president, I am not entitled to any more votes than anyone else. If I want to espouse my opinions at a meeting I remove myself from the chair and speak on the floor, side by side with members like Brother Sells.

The final issue here is the question of whether the union is restricting Brother Sells or any other member in their freedom to associate. This is patently incorrect. What our members have set, through the democratic process of their respective constitutions, are the rules to maintain membership in their organization. There is a fundamental difference in saying our members are restricted in who they can join and saying that to maintain your membership in our organization you must adhere to our rules. Members that do not wish to adhere to our rules make a choice to serve one organization over another. Our members have decided that it is in their interest, for myriad reasons, that this rule be in their constitution.  

Although the Canadian Charter of Freedoms allows for freedom of association, the laws of the country dictate that certain organizations are illegal or restricted.  People of this country make a choice; if they want to be members in those organizations, then they cannot be citizens of Canada. A union constitution works in the same manner. The union decisions have no impact on any other aspect in your life, only on your membership in our organization.
What is interesting is that Brother Sells wraps himself in the flag of the Charter, while ignoring the democratic process that the Charter protects. Our union, like all others, has a process for constitutional change. It is a democratic process that Brother Sells has never availed to use. I cannot recall Brother Sells being present at a meeting for constitutional changes and he has certainly never offered this change up to his membership to debate and vote on. What Brother Sells really wants is for legislation to change our constitution. He wants to deny our members the democratic right of self determination. His idea of democracy and freedom is different than mine; I believe firefighters should have the freedom to democratically set their rules, not have a minority will invoked through government legislation.

Scott Marks, president,
Toronto Professional Fire Fighters Association


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## pbi (30 Apr 2009)

> I work for a city that has never had part-time Police Officers, Firefighters or Paramedics.



If you mean the City of Toronto as it's currently structured, you're right: it has only existed for a few years. If you mean in the whole history of what is now Toronto, that's not quite true. Toronto was originally a volunteer dept until some time in the 19th century. In the communities that made up Metro Toronto back when it was formed in mid 20th century, Mimico and Lambton-Kingsway were both volunteer depts until the late 1950's, and IIRC Swansea had volunteers until the early 60's.

 To a certain degree the President of the Union is right: a career FF who works as a "part-time" FF in his local community is not a "volunteer" in the same sense as we were in my VFD in Virginia, and as many US VFFs are: unpaid, non-union, and not municipal employees. The FFs the President is referring to are actually working as paid employees of two different municipalities, so I guess I can understand his point.

But this doesn't really answer my original question. How is it in mixed FDs here?

Cheers


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## mariomike (30 Apr 2009)

pbi said:
			
		

> Mimico and Lambton-Kingsway were both volunteer depts until the late 1950's, and IIRC Swansea had volunteers until the early 60's.
> But this doesn't really answer my original question. How is it in mixed FDs here?



You have local knowledge!
The Mimico station is still on Superior Ave. It's vacant and boarded up now. After the fire department vacated ( circa 1967? ), Metro Ambulance moved in. I sometimes worked overtime shifts there. I remember it well. Ambulance station #9. 
There is a memorial near Raymore Drive to the five Lambton-Kingsway volunteer firemen lost in Hurricane Hazel. 
Sawnsea, see pic below, is the fire station closest to where I live. It's directly across the street from the Legion Branch 46. I've chatted with the guys at that station on many a warm summer night.
The push now is for "fire-based" EMS. If you want to know how that is, read what happened to New York City EMS:
http://www.fdnyemswebsite.com/


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## pbi (1 May 2009)

When I was stationed in Calgary, there was an ongoing covert war between the Fire and EMS crews. At one time in Calgary's past, the ambulances had been part of the FD. Then, they broke off as a separate EMS, mostly in their own stations. Then, in the late 90s, the city started a very badly thought out program to bring them back together again. Fire halls were redesignated "Emergency Stations", etc. Unfortunately at the crew level there was a lot of bad feeling: some of the FFs I knew in Calgary told me about halls where the EMS were forbidden to use the kitchen or other common area, or other silly discrimination. I don't know how this was resolved as I left Calgary in 1997. In Winnipeg, where I was 2002-2005, the two services had been officially merged into the "Winnipeg Fire and EM Service", but I believe there was still an internal distinction between the FFs and the EMS crews: they weren't really interchangeable.

The silliest example I saw of trying to merge protective services was when I was stationed in Esquimalt. There, the town had a "Police Fire Dept". The full-time PD provided on-call firefighters in response to alarms. This was an idea that caught on in some suburban communities in the US in the 1950s, and only took hold in two places in Canada that I know of: Esquimalt and Fort Garry (now part of Winnipeg). It was probably attractive in smaller communities with lower crime rates and not much high fire-risk property, amd I'm sure the municipal bean-counters loved the idea (they always like stupid ineffective things that look "efficient".) It seems to have died a natural death: a serious police call would leave the city with reduced fire protection, and vice versa. It must also have made shift management interesting.

Of course, neither of these is probably as bad as the situation that was common when I was growing up west of Toronto: ambulances run by funeral homes. This was common all over Ontario and only stopped when the ambulance reforms  (60s?-70s?) happened that brought in the provincial EMS and then eventually paramedics.

Cheers


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## mariomike (2 May 2009)

pbi said:
			
		

> Unfortunately at the crew level there was a lot of bad feeling: some of the FFs I knew in Calgary told me about halls where the EMS were forbidden to use the kitchen or other common area, or other silly discrimination.



In Toronto, many ambulances are stationed at firehouses. But, parked in a separate garage. Paramedics and firefighters are stationed in the same buildings, but literally segregated by brick walls. 
http://www.iaff.org/03News/061203has.html


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## pbi (3 May 2009)

So, given that physical separation, how do they get on with each other?

Cheers


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## mariomike (3 May 2009)

pbi said:
			
		

> So, given that physical separation, how do they get on with each other?



Let's just say those brick walls did not go up by accident.


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## Scott (3 May 2009)

Now that could be considered like saying, "Infantry and Artillery do not get along" when in reality it's usually a few bad apples ruining it for all. The larger the city, the greater the amount of apples. It's a generalization and while not entirely incorrect or unfair it still does not speak for the services, or models of delivery, as a whole.

In Canadian cities we can see examples of many different management systems. The one mariomike points out is just one. We also have integrated services that see staff members who are dual qualified and, for the most part and from my understanding, split their time between EMS and Fire Rigs (ft McMurray would be a good example) 

We also have places like Nova Scotia that have a provincially (of sorts) run EHS system of ambulances, stations and MFR training programs for fire fighters. The ambulances respond the same as they always would have but have the added sets of hands from a responding fire engine/rescue. The firefighters jobs are to perform critical interventions (Like CPR/AED or the like) but otherwise serve as a medium to gather information until EHS arrives and they also have that "intimate local knowledge" that aids in situations like needing air ambulances but also helps when we have to deal with a distraught family member as we so often know them personally. And then, we're also muscle - a two person ambulance trying to haul out someone who's 350 lbs. and unconscious....yeah. It's amazing to see this system at work from the calls to the training modules held by EHS and hosted at fire stations to the equipment placement done for free by EHS to hopefully improve the overall pre hospital care that someone could receive.

Perhaps the most interesting place I have been in this country to see, well, a  gong show was St John's back in the late 90's and early part of this century. The City of St John's Fire Department not only put out fires but had ambulances placed in certain stations. The Health Sciences Centre had their own ambulances as well and many a time both services would be dispatched to the same call which, inevitably, brought some bad blood to the surface. I had the misfortune of taking some EMS related courses from two instructors - one from the HSC EMS, the other from the City FD EMS...wasn't hard to see their disdain from one another done in the way of sniping the other guy's previous day's teachings (while he wasn't there, of course) I have no clue if this has changed or not but this is what I saw back then.

To pbi's original question: I've seen it all in regards to how composite departments get along and I think that, for the most pat, it works well. But again it comes down to a few individuals or a small group of individuals who make it bad for everyone. There was a certain FD a few years back that just could not keep themselves out of Frank Magazine (an illustrious feat to be included in those pages) for all the bickering that went on between the paid drivers and the volunteer firefighters and officers of the department. Suffice it to say that each side had its points and each side also did its level best to piss on, or off as it were, the other. Today, from the outside, they seem quite happy and able to work together but there were some big changes before that happened and a few people disappeared.

As someone who has had to work in a paid role alongside volunteers I will say this: My largest concern is safety, levels and standards of training, physical fitness. Most of the volunteers I have met and have volunteered with (yes, I have worn both hats though have never been considered a Two Hatter) have been regular people who just want to help. They attend training sessions, they fight fires, they know their limits. Then we have those bad apples. I will not get into sharing horror stories because the cold and simple truth is that there are thuds-a-plenty in the full time ranks as well. And really, what does it matter?

The thing to me is that we sometimes have a group of paid guys who just don't like volunteers and will do anything they can to express this. Sometimes it's the volunteers who act out and decide to make themselves, and their opinions, known. We also have Officers and Chiefs as well as administrators who will do nothing about this because of the intricacy of the matter. Then we have the higher ups within the municipality who are sometimes as much to blame as the guys on the floor. It's a multi headed beast, this composite department thing, and each and every one is different.

You know, if more of the fire and EMS types, no matter what their employment situation or working conditions, learned to turn the other cheek from time to time it might just get a bit easier. And speaking for the fire services as a whole, we'd also gain some credibility as and among professionals. Too bad the minority still wants to focus on Kingdom building, cliques and petty arguments. Tradition unimpeded by change.


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## mariomike (3 May 2009)

Scott said:
			
		

> Now that could be considered like saying, "Infantry and Artillery do not get along" when in reality it's usually a few bad apples ruining it for all. The larger the city, the greater the amount of apples.



Whatever their reasons, the decision to build walls was made by people much higher up than myself. I expect the same decision would be made if the city decided to build a police station and a fire house on the same property.
Toronto EMS is the smallest of the emergency services, yet retains its complete independence from other departments. 
That's not to say that T-EMS does not work well with other departments. Quite the opposite, in fact. 
Tactical Paramedics are trained to provide medical support to the Toronto Police Emergency Task Force. Marine Paramedics are trained for staffing the patrol vessels of the Toronto Police Marine Unit. Public Safety Unit provides paramedics for medical support to the Toronto Police Riot Squad.


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## Scott (3 May 2009)

mariomike,

I agree with your thoughts that a police and fire hall would be seperate and have seen examples of such.

The reason I replied as I did was this:


			
				pbi said:
			
		

> So, given that physical separation, how do they get on with each other?



Which seemed to be asking how fire/EMS get along personally and to which you replied:


			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Let's just say those brick walls did not go up by accident.



Which says to me that there is tension there and why I replied with my example.


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## mariomike (4 May 2009)

Hello Scott:

Comparing Ambulance and Fire to Infantry and Artillery is like comparing apples to oranges. Combat Arms have always fought battles together.
It is only in recent years that fire engines have been responding to ambulance calls. I joined T-EMS in 1972. IIRC "Tiered Response" started around 1985. 
Please read these remarks by IAFF General President Harold A. Schaitberger:
"Citizens are no longer surprised when a fire rig pulls up to their homes to handle a medical emergency. 
Our next frontier is Canada. That is why we have more than three dozen of our Canadian brothers and sisters here at this conference. Although most of Canada is still locked into a third-service EMS system with workers represented by Canada's largest public employee union, our Winnipeg local's success in integrating EMS into its fire department has shown that fire-based EMS can and, if I have my way, will work in Canada, too. 
But as one of this union's most fundamental responsibilities, our involvement in EMS has also helped us create and save jobs for our members.
In fact, our research is showing a trend that those fire departments that don't provide EMS are taking the worst hits right now
Most people expect to need EMS some time in their lives while they don't necessarily expect their homes to catch fire. Local municipal officials know the public criticism and fallout from fire department cuts will be much more severe when EMS is involved in the equation. And they know that EMS operations certainly increase the clout of our local unions in their campaigns to fight those cuts. 
And it is the first time in history that federal funding to the fire service has now surpassed federal money for law enforcement. 
Will some of our people hold their noses at the prospect of broadened EMS responsibilities for fire fighters like many of our members did when EMS was first introduced into the fire service?
Our job as a union and my job as your General President is to look forward to seek out opportunities and to protect and provide jobs for our brothers and sisters across North America."


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## Scott (4 May 2009)

Whether or not it was a fair comparison I still think you missed the point.

You stated that walls went up because of the relationship between Fire and EMS pers and I think that this is a generalization of how things are. Simple.

As for the quote which was already supplied earlier in this thread, I have zero clue what it has to do with comparisons and generalizations about Fire/EMS relationships.


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## mariomike (12 May 2009)

pbi said:
			
		

> Of course, neither of these is probably as bad as the situation that was common when I was growing up west of Toronto: ambulances run by funeral homes. This was common all over Ontario and only stopped when the ambulance reforms  (60s?-70s?) happened that brought in the provincial EMS and then eventually paramedics.



I joined ( Metro ) Toronto EMS in 1972. Funeral homes operated ambulance services in Metro  until December 1975.  At that time, our eight ambulance services were amalgamated into one department. None of these ambulance services were operated by a fire service.
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/about/history-files/1975-amalgamation.html
The police had amalgamated in 1957. The fire service amalgamated in 1998.
Funeral Service education and Paramedicine are "Health Sciences". They are four semester programs. They both offer Diplomas. They both study Anatomy and Physiology, Microbiology, Humanities, Pathology, Issues in Grief and Bereavement, Legal and professional issues, Applied Psychology, Pharmacology, Ethics. The list goes on.
There is a two semester "Certificate" program in fire service at Humber College that offers none of that. 
The funeral service has a strong historical and educational bond with Toronto's ambulance department.  
So highly regarded were the funeral home ambulancemen in 1975 that Metro offerred them seniority in our union and OMERS enrolement retroative to 1970. Most accepted. One of them, Bruce Farr, is our Chief.
Since 1975 we have managed to remain independent. I have less than three weeks to go, but as a resident, I hope that T-EMS manages to stay that way!


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