# When is using first names appropriate?



## Jarnhamar (10 Apr 2005)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29437.0.html

When is it appropriate to use first names (if ever) on duty?
Working with the reg force i found that within the sections guys used first names more often than not. Even our section commander told us to use his first name unless the Platoon WO or commander was around, then it was rank.  Near anyone outside the platoon it would be rank and last name.

I found this really pulled the section together, which was half reserves and half regs. We were all buddy buddy with each other, including the section commander who had us over to his place a few times for drinks. Really brought the guys together as a team.
When he gave an order though, there was no bullshitting around. The loyalty and respect this section commander had from the troops was unquestioning.

I find you don't see this too often in the reserves. First names between soldiers and especially section commanders.  I've seen some reservists go a little overboard at times too with insisting their rank be used every time you speak with them, as in every sentence practically. That gets a little tedious.

Anyhow, what difference in rank is it un/appropriate to use someones first name?  I don't see a problem with troops/section commanders using first names as long as it's understood orders are still orders.  What about a corporal and warrant officer?

I've seen officers call SNCOs by their first names (or even senior to junior officers) but it always seems to be one sided with the SNCO using the officers rank or sir.


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## jmackenzie_15 (10 Apr 2005)

Im going to disagree with a few things ghost, that you said about reserves

I actually have more experience with american reservists than I do canadian regulars, so I cant really comment on the regforce side of cohesion , but in my unit,about 75% of my platoon are drinking buddies.

Saturday as a matter of fact about 14 of us were at a bar.I have more good friends in the reserves than I do civi side as a matter of fact.

although, this is just my unit, i know in a couple others its not like this at all.I suppose it varies from place to place within the entire CF... and probobly every military.

It depends on the person/people upon whether its appropriate or not to call them by their first name..... I would say a good clue is when they tell you to "call me xxxx" =p


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## tomahawk6 (10 Apr 2005)

In my experience juniors never address senior's by first name. Senior's to junior's vary by either first name , rank and last name or just last name. I address my senior subordinates by first name. Others by rank and last name. Non-NCO's I address by last name. NCO's always by rank and last name. But I know senior officers who address most of their officer's by their first name. I think its important to keep a certain distance.


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## jmackenzie_15 (10 Apr 2005)

Well, I dont mean on the recruit level.Untill the new guys have put their time in, they should be kept a distance.
respect is earned.


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## goshofmosh (10 Apr 2005)

I think it completly depends on you relationship with the person cause i'm a pivate and there ae some SNCO I call by first and other by last and othes by ank it jsut depends on how well i've gotten to know the people. I know some people out of no where just started calling me by my first name as we started to hang out more.; I guess my point is it all depends on the person


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## Teddy Ruxpin (10 Apr 2005)

My various rules of thumb are thus:

I always call officers senior to me "sir" unless we are close friends, then its first names - but in private only.   I still would use sir in public.

In the Canadian Army, junior officers (Lieutenants and Captains) use first names amongst themselves and, by tradition, are typically called by their first names by senior officers (Majors and higher).

For non-commissioned members (including Sr NCOs), an officer should always use rank and last name when addressing someone.   A soldier has earned his/her rank and deserves to be addressed by it properly.   I would never call an NCM by their first name, although there is one exception.   There are occasions when you will have old friends who may be NCMs and you are not.   Then, the same level of discretion applies as I noted above:   in private only.

I've seen tank/Coyote crews where first names are used inside the vehicle, but its never been something I've done. 

Again, this is the way I do business... I know the air force and some "technical" trades feel differently!! 

Cheers,

TR


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## Sig_Des (10 Apr 2005)

Use of first name varies. When I finished BMQ/SQ, our section 2ic took a couple of us aside, to say goodbye, and say from now on it was "Mike". Of course if anyone else is around, it would be MCpl, but just among troops...

Generally, it's always appropriate to use rank, but if an NCO says, hey call me so and so, first name is fine.


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## George Wallace (10 Apr 2005)

There is a time and place for everything.   In an Armoured Vehicle crew or Aircrew, there is quite often a 'First Name' basis.   In Public, in uniform, it should be more formal and Ranks used.   In the Mess, it can become very informal......"Hey Butt Fu**** come buy a round!"   I have had several CO's call me by my first name, even in front of others, but that was their style.   Others, while on Parade, are more formal and use Rank and Last Name.   Downtown, in Civies, "Sir" will usually suffice.   It is usually not very proper to call any superior, in the Military or not, by their first name.   Would you call a Judge in the courtroom by their first name, if you knew them?   There is a definite 'Etiquette' to be followed.


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## Zoomie (11 Apr 2005)

Aircrew are pretty much always on a first name basis.  We never address each other as Captain So-and-So or Sgt Bloggins - it's either first names or aircrew position (ie. Nav, Pilot, Co, SAR tech, FE, etc) - it makes for an easier time on the ICS and solidifies crew cohesion.  This is usually only for Captains and below though - flying with Majors can be a real pain.


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## Infanteer (11 Apr 2005)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Aircrew are pretty much always on a first name basis.   We never address each other as Captain So-and-So or Sgt Bloggins - it's either first names or aircrew position (ie. Nav, Pilot, Co, SAR tech, FE, etc) - it makes for an easier time on the ICS and solidifies crew cohesion.   This is usually only for Captains and below though - flying with Majors can be a real pain.



I thought everyone was "Bob" in the Air Force.... 

Anyways, I had this somewhere else, but I put it here as it was relevent to the topic.

I once watched a LtCol correct a Major infront of his company by calling him by his first name "Now X, actually...."

I felt bad for the OC being treated like that (this is the Army, not the Air Force  ); he'd earned the rank of Major and it would be fitting (professionally) for other soldiers to give him that, regardless of whether they are a Private or the CO - especially when the guy is in front of his entire company.   To this day I'm still unsure of what the guy was trying to prove by calling his subordinates by their first name infront of the troops....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Apr 2005)

I lived by a simple rule, if higher-ups were around, then it was by the book, and if someone was not smart enough to follow THAT rule then it was always "by the book".
...to me it was just a matter of "professional courtesy". Even in my current profession I still use that theory for my shift I/C when either subordinates[inmates] or superiors[superindentants/etc] are around.
Again just "professional courtesy".


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29383.0.html


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## Teddy Ruxpin (11 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I once watched a LtCol correct a Major infront of his company by calling him by his first name "Now X, actually...."
> 
> I felt bad for the OC being treated like that (this is the Army, not the Air Force   ); he'd earned the rank of Major and it would be fitting (professionally) for other soldiers to give him that, regardless of whether they are a Private or the CO - especially when the guy is in front of his entire company.   To this day I'm still unsure of what the guy was trying to prove by calling his subordinates by their first name infront of the troops....



The OC probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, so I wouldn't worry.  As I said earlier, amongst officers first names are typically used by seniors when addressing more junior officers...  In front of the company...well - I wouldn't correct _anyone _ in front of their soldiers (safety issues aside), regardless of rank.


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## bossi (11 Apr 2005)

It's true that almost everybody has earned their rank, and therefore deserve to be addressed by their rank and surname.   We also know that when you don't know somebody's surname, you address them solely by their rank (and not "Hey, You!") - at the other end of the spectrum, the use of a subordinates' first name demonstrates that the superior actually knows the subordinate well enough to know their first name ... (i.e. an extension of "know, and promote the well-being of your troops" ...).

As several have pointed out previouly, there's a time and place for everything ... and knowing the right time and place is essential.   Personally, I've used first names for unit cohesion in special circumstances, to emphasize that I value a subordinates opinion, and to encourage them to offer it.   Reverting to the use of ranks can also serve as a warning that a conversation has the potential to become "one-way", or simply as a warning that outsiders are approaching.

The use of first names in circumstances can also signify "a rite of passage" - In my Officers' Handbook, permission must be granted by a Captain before a Lieutenant may address him by his first name - to do otherwise is presumptuous.

On rare occasions, when I've know somebody for their entire career (i.e. I enrolled them, or we were once peers ... but sadly their rank has outstripped mine ...) I've used the first name of a senior rank to get their attention, and as an overt reminder that they're not talking to some "wet behind the ears" junior ... however, this has only been on rare occasions.

Stirling tenets were:
- A classless society
- A sense of humility
- The relentless pursuit of excellence
- A sense of humour

Thus, at times or under special circumstances, I believe the judicious use of first names can be appropriate.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (11 Apr 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> On rare occasions, when I've know somebody for their entire career (i.e. I enrolled them, or we were once peers ... but sadly their rank has outstripped mine ...) I've used the first name of a senior rank to get their attention, and as an overt reminder that they're not talking to some "wet behind the ears" junior ... however, this has only been on rare occasions.



An overt reminder, hmmm?  You just might get an "overt reminder" back if you try that with the wrong "senior"!  

TR


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## bossi (11 Apr 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> An overt reminder, hmmm?   You just might get an "overt reminder" back if you try that with the wrong "senior"!



Yes, As I pointed out, it's important to know when and where it's appropriate ...
(and, so far so good ... almost 28 years without getting "an overt reminder back" ...)


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## Infanteer (11 Apr 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> The OC probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, so I wouldn't worry.   As I said earlier, amongst officers first names are typically used by seniors when addressing more junior officers...   In front of the company...well - I wouldn't correct _anyone _ in front of their soldiers (safety issues aside), regardless of rank.



Oh, ok.  I don't even think it was really a correction, I think the OC asked for a clarificiation - but it still sounded silly to me.  I guess I am just a stickler or something....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Apr 2005)

Quote,
 I guess I am just a stickler or something.....................OUCH,  .... sorry,had to slap my "bad" hand >


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## combat_medic (11 Apr 2005)

I think all of this very much depends on the relationship, but whatever the usage of names, it should go both ways. Example: I once had an officer (Lt-Capt type) come up to me and address me by my first name, so I responded to him with his first name. He seemed pretty shocked by it, but I think he got the point. If you can call me by mine, I can call you by yours. Typically I only do it for close friends, and only those within 1 rank +/- of myself. Even if I'm close friends with the upper echelons, I certainly wouldn't address them by anything other than rank in public. 

I also think that it shows a great deal of respect to always address your subbordinates by rank. Even the privates, once they're no longer recruits, have earned their rank, so it seems only fair to use it.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Apr 2005)

I see what you mean by someone earning their rank.

I guess it depends how you look at it. When i put enough time in my section and the guys started calling me by my first name I considered it a sign of 'being in'.  Same goes for a platoon warrant calling me by my first name. I'd never use theirs but them addressing me like that I consider almost a sign of respect.


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## Infanteer (11 Apr 2005)

Actually, we had "call signs" in our Platoon.  Everyone had to have one.


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## KevinB (11 Apr 2005)

1VP's policy had been at work 1 rank up and down, - not on the parade square 

 I generally try to call as many people by first names as possible (mainly because everyone outranks me  ) The juniors or seniors will respect you for what you do, and you them.  Working with friends, makes it a bit difficult sometimes (especially if they are 3-4 ranks above you or more...) 

When I am off work with friends it is all first names, others are by rank


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## Cliffy433 (12 Apr 2005)

To avoid needless typing: I agree with everyone... 

... NEVER on the parade square though.

tlm.


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## Gayson (13 Apr 2005)

I'm a Pte and this is how it works out for me.

Mcpl and up Rank and lastname (unless in the mess).

Cpl's, usually by last name, some by first if were buds and the SNCO's / Officers aren't around.

Other Pte's, last name / first name depending on how well I know them.  If a SNCO / Officer is around then it is last name.

In the mess I never refer to any JNCO by rank.


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## Sub_Guy (13 Apr 2005)

Submarine 

Pretty much all first name, although officers are usually addressed as Combat, Nav, sonix, captain, xo, if they have no title sir.

CPO2 down usually use first names

Coxn is always Coxn

Use your head though when there are senior personnel around you use rank


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## gun plumber (14 Apr 2005)

It's really relaxed in our workshop(wpns section that is).We all call each other by either first name or nicknames.Our Sgt actually prefers to be called "Boss" in the shop.He as well calls us by our first names.But,as has been said here many times,never outside of the shop.When it comes to the floor chimps..er Veh techs,its always rank,they are kinda anal about that.


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## chrisf (14 Apr 2005)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> Other Pte's, last name / first name depending on how well I know them.   If a SNCO / Officer is around then it is last name.



This is somthing that's always driven me nuts... the whole last name sans rank thing... if you're not adressing somone by their rank, why the heck would it matter if you used first names or last names? I just find it irritating personally...


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## private savage (14 Apr 2005)

I am a new recruit, and If I ever used someones first name unless notified to, I would be ran into the ground. My regiment trains with many reg.force soldiers as well. So unless I'm completly aware to call them buy there first name, it would be a death wish.


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## Yeoman (16 Apr 2005)

for the first while, I called everyone by their last name, but when I finally got to know everyone in my platoon, most of the time it's first names. but everyone calls me yeoman, the name greg didn't catch on when you have a catchy name like "YO-MAN!". my 2ic, first name, section commander first name every now and again, but usually I just short form his last name and no one cares.
Greg


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## aesop081 (18 Apr 2005)

On my crew we all call each other by our first names , officers and NCMs alike........


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## Redeye (18 Apr 2005)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> It's really relaxed in our workshop(wpns section that is).We all call each other by either first name or nicknames.Our Sgt actually prefers to be called "Boss" in the shop.He as well calls us by our first names.But,as has been said here many times,never outside of the shop.When it comes to the floor chimps..er Veh techs,its always rank,they are kinda anal about that.



One of our section 2iCs was only ever referred to as "Coach" until he CT'd to the Reg F.

My Regiment is frequently singled out as being the most "informal", we tend to operate on a first name basis a lot - though only among officers and NCOs and never in front of "troops", in public, or when a sense of decorum seems especially appropriate.  There's no really definable standard.  I just default to being formal unless told otherwise.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Apr 2005)

Quote from Gravyboat,
Nor do I like to be called a "body" I have a pulse and a functioning frontal lobe. 

I absolutely detest that wording.
My reply to anyone asking for "bodies" was, "if you want bodies go to the morgue, if you need men, try again".
.....and I wonder why I didn't go anywhere... ;D


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## Edward Campbell (20 Apr 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote from Gravyboat,
> Nor do I like to be called a "body" I have a pulse and a functioning frontal lobe.
> 
> I absolutely detest that wording.
> ...



Yes, indeed.  I learned that at a very young and tender age when then Maj Jack Vance (later LGen and father of just (just about to be?) promoted Col Jon Vance) tore a strip off our CSM (the late _Cheerful Charlie_ Caldwell) for allowing the term to be used in company lines.  (Remember: Never pass a fault.)  The tongue lashing was in private â â€œ OC's office, door closed - but it was a real 'window rattler' and it was audible to everyone in and around the company office.

I don't remember the words but they were something along the lines Bruce used plus a lecture about having and showing respect for every soldier, indeed every person â â€œ local hires, too â â€œ within 'our' _family_.

It was used commonly, too commonly, in the Canadian Army back in the '50s and '60s and, I think, well into the '70s and '80s too.  I hope we all stamp it out; even the idle plugs I wish we could throw out on their ears are better than just _bodies_.


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## Good2Golf (20 Apr 2005)

...in the aircraft, first names between folks who know that what goes on in the helo, stays in the helo.  If there is a recent arrival, e.g. a new Cpl flight engineer, I'll use his/her rank and lastname for a while until the experienced FE's give me the thumbs up that they've briefed the new kid on protocol and he/she's good to go and won't do things like call the OC by his first name in front of everybody in the Sqn canteen (ya, just takes one of those and a very old school CO to learn ya.)

...back on the ground, I'll call Capt/Lt's by first name if we're in a less formal environment (like crew debriefing, etc...), but when I refer to one of the officers in a more formal discussion, I find it more professional and respectful to use rank/name.  In larger groups, I will call NCMs by rank/name (out of respect to them and the fact that some need that level of formality shown for consistency with how they address their own subordinates).  One on one with NCOs I know well and trust my crew and machine with, I'll use their first names and personally I'm G2G with first name in private, although some prefer 'Maj'.  They all use sir to me on the ground when others are around.

Some of my CADPAT brethren tell me that that kind of stuff is wrong, that it degrades discipline.  I can't speak to their own situations so I won't contradict them...that may very well be true for their community.  However, in my very particular operational experiences, I have not found that to be the case.  As others have mentioned...time, place, situation, mutual respect, etc...you have a feel for it.  There have been times when trying to verbalize rank, name and command/order in flight would take too long and a first name is exactly what you need in a busy situation to get your attention at the right split second.  I don't see it as being chummy and that's not why I would use first names...I see it as a trust, intimate team interaction/response thing.  It is very particular to folks' situations.

Judgment is the important bit, I think...what is acceptable for the environment you're in at the moment, respect for all involved and consistency.   Some guys assure consistency by fire-walling formal...fine, whatever works for some folks.  I prefer the interaction, including developing judgment in my NCMs and officers alike in that professional interaction, and I feel that it can be a tool to maximize the effectiveness of my team's msn conduct. 


Cheers,
Duey


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## Britney Spears (20 Apr 2005)

Everyone in JTF-2 goes by first name, in fact JTF-2 members do not HAVE last names. 










(Sorry)


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## Kat Stevens (20 Apr 2005)

I heard ( : ) That they are all renamed Bruce to avoid confusion. Also, that their fingerprints are burned off, and all their families relocated to  remote fishing villages in Newfoundland with new identities....

CHIMO,  Kat


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## bossi (20 Apr 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Everyone in JTF-2 goes by first name, in fact JTF-2 members do not HAVE last names.





			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I heard ( : ) That they are all renamed Bruce to avoid confusion. Also, that their fingerprints are burned off, and all their families relocated to   remote fishing villages in Newfoundland with new identities...



Britney, Kat - Remain in place.  Remainder carry on ...
(we're sending the sweepers to clean up this little imbroglio ...  :fifty:


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## Kat Stevens (20 Apr 2005)

Excuse me.. someones at the door.........OH MY GOD!!......   AAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHH....gurgle....


Kat


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## NATO Boy (21 Apr 2005)

Appropriate Use of First Names:

1. Addressing others while off-duty in your respective mess (the mess is referred to sometimes as a place of relaxation, thus this should be a given.)
2. When addressing eachother within Section Level and/or the conversing members are the same rank and "both" agree to use first names.
3. If you've earned respect from a higher-up enough, you could get away with it then too...(I used to call my neighbour by first name before I joined the unit and found out he was a Major; I sometimes slip and use his first name when speaking with him privately, otherwise it's "sir this" and "sir that.")

Appropriate Informalities:

1. Most Junior Ranks Officers get referred as "Mr. _______" instead of "Rank _______." (This is mostly only done by higher-ups but sometimes can be done by subordinates.)
2. Calling your Section Commander or 2IC by Last Name or a short form of their last name that they like to use (ie Mackenzie = Mack.)
3. Addressing a rank with a known short-form (ie: Sargeant = Sarge.)

These are the only ones I've come across (other than the ones on this thread) but I'm sure there are many, many more...


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## DELTADOG13 (21 Apr 2005)

Depending on the setting and occassion it is permissible to relax the use of formalities of calling personal by last name and rank. Such as the field, overseas and the mess.
In my platoon we work in small groups under demanding situations. We depend on all to be equal no matter what rank. Therefore we all use first names. However it is hard sometimes to call your Platoon Commander by his first name even though you've known him since he was a MCpl and you a private. Still there is the informality of small, tightly organized, hard chargers. 
Ours is not the rule.
Other platoons I've served with we were all on a first name basis and this worked. Other platoons it bred contempt for authority and had to quashed. 
To each is own!


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## the 48th regulator (22 Apr 2005)

Nato Boy

You have summed it up bang on.

dileas

tess


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## Haggis (22 Apr 2005)

NATO Boy said:
			
		

> Appropriate Use of First Names:
> 
> 1. Addressing others while off-duty in your respective mess (the mess is referred to sometimes as a place of relaxation, thus this should be a given.)



With the exception of the CO and RSM. That is a line no one should ever cross.


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## NATO Boy (22 Apr 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> With the exception of the CO and RSM. That is a line no one should ever cross.



I don't know about the CO, but I've seen most Sgts and WOs call the RSM by first name (since they've known eachother since training.) But this is rarely done in front of junior ranks (I was invited in the Sgts Mess when I saw this.) It's a line that shouldn't be crossed but, like I said, in rare occasions you can get away with it.


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## Haggis (22 Apr 2005)

NATO Boy said:
			
		

> I've seen most Sgts and WOs call the RSM by first name (since they've known each other since training.) But this is rarely done in front of junior ranks (I was invited in the Sgts Mess when I saw this.) It's a line that shouldn't be crossed but, like I said, in rare occasions you can get away with it.



What I should've added was "unless permission is granted".  I've been in the company of CWOs from other-than-Army units who have said "call me Bob".  My response has always been "OK, sir."

In my (mostly Army/Cbt Arms) experience calling the RSM by his/her first name in the mess is universally a bad thing to do.  Many, many Senior NCOs and WOs have earned hockey socks full of extras for that, usually at Mess functions.  Call me "Old School", but I would never do it.

Outside the Mess, the RSM is ALWAYS the RSM... anywhere and any time.


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## muskrat89 (22 Apr 2005)

> In my (mostly Army/Cbt Arms) experience calling the RSM by his/her first name in the mess is universally a bad thing to do.  Many, many Senior NCOs and WOs have earned hockey socks full of extras for that, usually at Mess functions.  Call me "Old School", but I would never do it.



I rarely called anyone by their first name. I was a Snr NCO and different from everyone else. I don't want to call Officers "Tom", nor am I inclined to call the RSM "Rod". Maybe, in an informal setting, long-known Bdrs and M/Bdrs I might call by their first name, but thats it. Heck, I met a Major from this site for coffee, and I still called him "Sir", and do even now, in correspondence. It just seems "weird" to do otherwise....


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## The Bat (22 Apr 2005)

its a kinder and gentler army in today, but i am still old School as well and if the RSM calls me by my first name i will answer with Sir


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## NATO Boy (25 Apr 2005)

Rocky 88 said:
			
		

> its a kinder and gentler army in today



I agree, but it doesn't tie in with why members of the older generation of army would use first names (even with the RSM!)


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