# Naval Mess Dress



## MissHardie (22 Oct 2004)

I discovered Wednesday night that I need to acquire some sort of neck accoutrement for the Mess Dinner (this) Saturday night and that no, this won't be issued to me - my question is, what is this female bow tie they speak of? And where might I find one? Formal wear stores? Can I get away with a real bow tie, or will that mean I'm crossdressing? (ha! Just the impression I want to make, especially in front of the Admiral). The one store that was recommended to me (Classy's) has closed down so now I'm a little bit panicky over the thought of being fined a drink for everyone present... 

I've been to a Mess Dinner before, but before I was issued proper kit and all the females wore evening gowns.


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## Inch (22 Oct 2004)

Proper mess kit is bought, not issued. If you're wearing CF DEUs as a mess kit, the general practice for men is to wear DEUs with a white tuxedo shirt with a black bow tie. As for women, I'm not too sure but I'd suggest you try Canex, they usually have all the accoutrements for mess kit. I noticed from your profile that you're in Calgary and I don't think there's a Canex there anymore so that might not help you much. 

I know it's not much info, but maybe one of the ladies of the forum can give you a little more help.

Cheers


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## Michael OLeary (22 Oct 2004)

From the Dress Regulations (A-AD-265-000/AG-001 2001-06-15):

Chapter 6 Orders of Dress

Annex E Authorized Additional Items

17. Tie, crossed tabs (F) - 

a. Black crossed tabs tie. 

Occasions worn. 
(1) Navy: shall be worn with all mess dress except No. 2C mess shipboard.

http://regimentalrogue.com/sharefiles//navy_female__mess_dress.jpg


If you can't find one, I'd say wear a man's bowtie and only buy a drink for any male officer who can tell you who in town sells the proper crossed tab tie (or even knows what it's properly called, if you're feeling generous).


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Oct 2004)

The bow tie works fine.

http://www.windsorregt.ca/HOStJ1.jpg


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## MissHardie (22 Oct 2004)

Inch, Mr. OLeary, recceguy,

Thanks for the info! No, there's no Canex here, so I'm SOL with that idea, but knowing what this neck-thingie is called sure helps! I'm sure I can now find _something_ suitable... or get away with a criss-cross tie that the western stores sell here, which I found yesterday but was unsure of whether it satisfies dress regs. Speaking of which, is there any way to access those off the intra-net?  Though finding a bowtie, methinks, will be much easier than scouting the city for that - what is it? - crossed tab tie. Hopefully that's navy tradition as well as army. 

Thanks again!


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## Michael OLeary (23 Oct 2004)

The Dress regs comprise a 17 Mb file, your best bet is to download it at work and write it to a CD for your home PC as a reference.

Sorry, but I can't remember exactly where I found it on the DWAN.


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## Sailing Instructor (30 Oct 2004)

Does anyone think that the female mess dress looks a bit...outdated?  Personally I think the guy who designs uniforms didn't put too much thought into making an aesthetically-pleasing mess dress for females.  Just 'switch those trousers for a skirt.'

Mind you, that mentality produced an aesthetically-pleasing female service dress uniform.


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## NavyGrunt (30 Oct 2004)

Your right lets just throw away another naval tradition because it looks "outdated".   :

We should all wear hypercolor t-shirts and hammer pants because its more "modern". I dont know what they teach you as an o-cadet but Naval tradition is very important,we've already changed the uniforms too much as far as Im concerned. The technology can change but the uniforms and traditions should not.


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## MissHardie (30 Oct 2004)

Personally, I'd like to wear a uniform like that the WRENs wore - not that it's changed much over the intervening years, but there are subtle differences that make it more aesthetically pleasing.  I saw one in the naval museum and just fell in love with it.  But then I like old things.


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## NavyGrunt (30 Oct 2004)

MissHardie said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd like to wear a uniform like that the WRENs wore - not that it's changed much over the intervening years, but there are subtle differences that make it more aesthetically pleasing.   I saw one in the naval museum and just fell in love with it.   But then I like old things.



That would be excellent. I as well like the older styled uniforms and trades badges.....ALOT. Its a shame how they get swept aside....


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## Sailing Instructor (31 Oct 2004)

Strangely enough, though I find the current female naval mess dress 'outdated,' I do like the WREN mess dress.

I can't say I liked giving the junior ratings no separate mess dress, though.  But that square rig sure did look sharp.


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## tree hugger (1 Nov 2004)

Wear a bow tie - you can can one from any mens suit store - just make sure it's not a "clip-on"! Next tiem you hit a CANEX look look for a white shirt that has gold buttons on it and kind of looks like a turtle neck. It's ugly but a the cool women are wearing it!


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## Bograt (1 Nov 2004)

I think the more important question is "What is the Navy doing in Calgary?" Perhaps they are working with Department of Fisheries and managing the Saskatchewan seal herd.


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## MissHardie (1 Nov 2004)

Bograt, 

I admit I am curious as to what seals hear in Saskatchewan - perhaps the Great Plains Walrus we Navy-folk keep tame, to prevent the ravaging of farmland? They do have this awful habit of bellowing at the top of their lungs when we tazer them too often from the prow of our great grass hover-ships. That is, incidentally, the real reason why all us inland naval reservists each need a pair of ear defenders.

sarcasm gets me into way too much trouble as a JOUT...


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## Sailing Instructor (2 Nov 2004)

I think I'm doing a pretty good job of controlling the Winnipeg seal/walrus herd.  I haven't seen a single one around....
Dress Instructions can be found at http://142.59.159.170/pams/cf_dress_manual.pdf

Can anybody tell me why we (in the navy) can wear wellington boots in the mess, yet not on parade?  Damn contemporary uniform: I prefer 'frockers & cockers' over naval combat rig anyday.


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Nov 2004)

I've finally started to get my mess rig made. So I went to the base tailor today and found that CFSS doesn't sell material for mess rig anymore.  No problem as the stuff they want is pretty damn heavyweight & apparently I just have to get material that's similar, which got me wondering how much latitude they allow in naval mess dress.

I've heard some people on this forum say that some regiments (Patricia's I think) rather expect individuality but I don't want to get reamed out by some captain because I'm not the same as everyone.  Though I assume that no one really checks at mess dinners.

Perhaps someone can shed some light on this subject.  Specifically, I want pleats in my trousers, but the patterns show flat-front trousers.  Will anyone notice and/or care?


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## Inch (9 Nov 2004)

I'd say you're definitely going to notice pleats, the pants are meant to be properly tailored.  When you get measured by the tailor, he'll ask you which way you dress and he isn't talking about whether you put your socks on first. They leave a little extra material for the goods if you know what I mean.

Where are you? If you're in Vic or Halifax, just ask around, I know there's a tailor in Halifax that does naval mess kits and I'd assume there was one in Vic as well. If you're in Winnipeg, try Ralph's. Not sure where exactly it is but I know it's south of Portage Ave. I got my Air Force mess kit done in Kingston at Andrei's, he also does naval and army mess kits. There's tons of guys around that make them, I have no doubt that there's one in a city near you.

Cheers


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Nov 2004)

I somewhat concur.  My tailor (Giovanni, in Winnipeg) and I figured pleats would be noticed.  But they are so much more confortable than flat-front trousers. Of course if the flat-fronts are cut loosely it doesn't matter, but then I might as well travel back in time and become a Seaman and wear bell-bottomed trousers.  Actually, come to think of it, those bell-bottoms are tight in the thighs anyway.

I guess I just haven't any experience with properly tailored flat-front trousers because the worst offenders in tightness (my service dress trousers) really don't seem to take into account that the wearer dresses _either_ way.  Ironically, I've noticed the ladies' service dress trousers have pleats.  And of course the navy does realise that pleats are more confortable because they put them on the combat trousers.

Okay, so pleats will be noticed but the important question is: will anyone care (besides the bureaucrats who come up with the dress specifications)?


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## Inch (9 Nov 2004)

Personally I think pleats would look dumb with a waist coat, they're supposed to be sleek looking, not like you're ready to head out for a round of golf. You also don't wear a belt with mess kit, I believe you're supposed to wear suspenders so that helps a little with the comfort.  The reason women's service dress has pleats is obviously because they're anatomically different than men, I can't say for their mess kit, most women that I've seen in mess kit tend to wear the skirt. I don't mind how my mess kit fits at all, besides, 99% of the times that you wear it you'll be drunk!

Cheers


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Nov 2004)

I guess I'm just stuck in a 1930s ideal of men's fashion where high English-back trousers with braces automatically require a deep forward pleat!  ;D And because of that I don't think that trousers need to be pencil-thin to be sleek; rather, the slight baginess is stylish--I've seen many evening suits with pleated trousers & they make me want wish white tie was coming back.  

But don't worry, I haven't lost all faith in the flat-front trousers, and if I do I'll just have to join a highland regiment and enjoy the freedom of a kilt!


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## Dreadnought (9 Nov 2004)

Hey Sailing is your unit H.M.C.S Chippawa in Winnipeg and if it is then what is your rank?  Just curious because I was interested in joining.


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## Staud (25 Nov 2004)

Mess dress- If you have a good tailor then a lot of these questions shouldn't need to be askeded. Call different tailors and ask them questions, they have made many and between a bunch of them you should be able to get most of your answers. Just get doeskin, not that cheap barethea (sp?) it may be heavier and more expensive at some tailors (but not all) but well worth it. 

There is a goood tailor in Edmonton that the CFB Edmonton supply can give you the number for.. if in the area.

my 2 cents.. Naval female mess dress with the skirt (which is proper) is very good, good meaning sexxy, in a proffessional way.

Fair winds... MissHartie say hi to TEC from Staud for me.  Cheers


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## MissHardie (25 Nov 2004)

Staud,



			
				Staud said:
			
		

> MissHartie say hi to TEC from Staud for me. Cheers



Will do.  Anyone in particular?


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## Staud (26 Nov 2004)

Will do.  Anyone in particular?

- N'importe qui   ...XO mabey, cheers, Staud


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## SeaRoom (16 Mar 2005)

Does anyone know the name of the company that supplies the gold trouser and cuff braid, and the gold "Canada" pathches; or a tailor that would be willing to sell them to me? The closer to Toronto the better. Thanks.

BQ


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## Sailing Instructor (16 Mar 2005)

The 17 wing tailor orders from Claymore (clothes, or something like that) in BC.  Sorry I don't have the phone # anymore but I _think_ they're the only company making the braid today.  Costs about $300 for the whole set:
-8 mess jacket buttons (2 of which link together)
-4 waistcoat buttons
-sleeve lace/badges (I got both cadet & Slt, though, so most persons' total would be less than $300)
-lengths trouser braid, for officers & CPO1
-2 CANADA shoulder titles

You might find some of these items at a military antiques store.  I've no clue as to whether it would be cheaper but if they are at least the same price it's better to use what's already manufactured.


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## ctjj.stevenson (22 Mar 2005)

Hi everyone!

I'm a naval CIC officer that does not have a mess kit yet, therefore I wear 2B dress for mess dinner. I was wondering what the name tag norm was more this order of dress. On the mess kit that are made, you should not wear a name tag, however with the service uniform jacket, was is the norm because everyone keeps on disagreeing on the norm. Should we keep our name tag or not. 

Also, on the subject of mess dinner, I wanted to ask about the port wine tradition of sailors. I've heard that members of the navy must slide the port bottle on the table, and the Air Force member mustn't have the bottle touch the table. Can someone confirm the please!

_*Thank you kindly and have a great day!*_


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## Inch (22 Mar 2005)

I've always heard name tags off. The port bottle cannot touch the table at an Air Force mess dinner, can't say for sure about the Navy types.


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## Sailing Instructor (22 Mar 2005)

2B is the only rig upon which nametags & undress ribbons are worn.  (I think this was a mishap in dress instructions.)

The navy's & army's port should be passed to the left any way you wish.  Perhaps the most important rule is that toasts mustn't be drunk with water (unless you want someone to drown, in which case it's perfectly acceptable).


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## Cronicbny (23 Mar 2005)

For anyone interested... The tailor shop co-located with CANEX in Esquimalt is selling naval mess kit for 500.00 (I think that was the price).


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## ctjj.stevenson (24 Mar 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> 2B is the only rig upon which nametags & undress ribbons are worn.   (I think this was a mishap in dress instructions.)
> 
> The navy's & army's port should be passed to the left any way you wish.   Perhaps the most important rule is that toasts mustn't be drunk with water (unless you want someone to drown, in which case it's perfectly acceptable).



Actually, it is acceptable to toast with water nowadays because the Canadian Forces are not permitted to make you drink if you do not want to. My former Commanding Officer doesn't drink, and therefore she has always toasted with water. 

I guess that you are correct about 2B being the only uniform that does not allow name tags, however, with the navy blue tunic, an officer or a NCM does wear the undress ribbon with number 3 dress (and they are also worn with 1D - summer white, however with undress ribbons). 

_*Good day!*_


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## Sailing Instructor (25 Mar 2005)

ctjj.stevenson said:
			
		

> Actually, it is acceptable to toast with water nowadays because the Canadian Forces are not permitted to make you drink if you do not want to. My former Commanding Officer doesn't drink, and therefore she has always toasted with water.



And, hence, persons keep drowning.  It does not need to be liquor for a toast, just not water.  The army has permitted water toasts for a long while as drowning is not such a problem for them.



> I guess that you are correct about 2B being the only uniform that does not allow name tags



2B is the only mess rig that _does_ allow nametags & undress ribbons.


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## Inch (25 Mar 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> And, hence, persons keep drowning. It does not need to be liquor for a toast, just not water. The army has permitted water toasts for a long while as drowning is not such a problem for them.



Sorry, I'm not going to equate drowning with using water to toast. Sure it's tradition for us in the Air Force to not let the decanter touch the table, but no one has crashed for putting it down.



			
				Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> 2B is the only mess rig that _does_ allow nametags & undress ribbons.



Maybe it's just an Air Force thing, but when DEUs are worn as mess kit, name tags are *not* worn.


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> And, hence, persons keep drowning.   It does not need to be liquor for a toast, just not water.   The army has permitted water toasts for a long while as drowning is not such a problem for them.



 :


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## MissHardie (25 Mar 2005)

Inch,

It's not just an Air Force thing; I've had to remove my name tag upon showing up at a mess dinner in my DEUs.

Miss Hardie


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## Navalsnpr (26 Mar 2005)

MissHardie said:
			
		

> It's not just an Air Force thing; I've had to remove my name tag upon showing up at a mess dinner in my DEUs.



Agreed. I've been to about 50 mess dinners through out my career and never have I seen a name tag worn by members of any service. It was explained to me that if you wear a name tag, people wouldn't mingle as much. I guess it is a rule to encourage people to mingle.


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## Sailing Instructor (26 Mar 2005)

So the rule that 2B includes nametags is contrary to tradition?  Is this an example of a typo no one has complained about yet?

Hopefully, I'll never have to wear 2B again, but if I do I'll be sure to remove my nametag.


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## ctjj.stevenson (26 Mar 2005)

On April 9th, I will get my complete copy of the CF dress regs. I guess that I will look it up in there to see what the regs are, and then I will not have the problem anymore. 

I just don't understand why water is not okay for a toast. I've always noticed that if someone does not want port wine, then they give them water for the toast. I will ask around ... because I don't see why this will make sailors drown. 

Good day!


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## Neill McKay (27 Mar 2005)

ctjj.stevenson said:
			
		

> On April 9th, I will get my complete copy of the CF dress regs. I guess that I will look it up in there to see what the regs are, and then I will not have the problem anymore.



By the book (and the book here is the version dated 2001-06-15, which I have in front of me) nametags are worn with 2B.  I've no way of verifying if that's been amended, or if it is just an oversight; both are possible.

[quote author=ctjj.stevenson]I just don't understand why water is not okay for a toast. I've always noticed that if someone does not want port wine, then they give them water for the toast. I will ask around ... because I don't see why this will make sailors drown.[/quote]

It's a naval supersition, perhaps not shared by other elements.


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Mar 2005)

> It's a naval supersition, perhaps not shared by other elements



Superstition or tradition?


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## ctjj.stevenson (27 Mar 2005)

*Thank you kindly*[/font]


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## Steel Badger (27 Mar 2005)

On reason perhaps: Water was forbidden for toasting after the 1745....

Irreverant Scots would toast the King of England by first passing their glasses over a bowl of water..
In effect toasting to the King over the Water..........The Stuarts in exile.....



Second question:

Does Naval mess dress require a Green Parrot or a Maccaw?
Or is the distribution of birds, shoulder mounted; varied by rank and/or postion.....

And is the colour of head scarves by ship or mess?  >


SB


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## Infanteer (27 Mar 2005)

Do eyepatches have to be worn over the same eye - like the "watch on the same hand" game in Basic?


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## Neill McKay (27 Mar 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Superstition or tradition?



Well, both, I suppose.  The superstition is that a person toasted with water will drown as a result, and from that we get the tradition that it's downright rude to inflict this on someone.

A related superstition/tradition has it that ringing a glass (by striking it) will cause a sailor to drown -- but if you stop it before it rings itself out then God takes a marine instead!


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## Old Sweat (27 Mar 2005)

In the really bad old days, in the British army water was not allowed on the table during the loyal toast to the King. The rationale was that Jacobites would swing their port glass over the goblet of water, thereby toasting the Kiing over the water, that is, the exciled Stuarts.

Being of Highland Scots ancestry from a clan that was out in '15 and 45' I have done it, but I don't take it seriously.


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## Steel Badger (27 Mar 2005)

Of course, some of my Highland ancestors maintained that to use real uisge in a toast to some great lump of a german was wasteful and somewhat sinfull.......


Water was MUCH more frugal........ ;D


SB


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Mar 2005)

Surprisingly there is still a Scottish "pretender" to the English throne, or a legitimate claimant depending on your view:

http://www.royalhouseofstewart.org.uk/


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## Sailing Instructor (30 Mar 2005)

Due to lack of information at the local base tailor, I've the follwoing question:

What style are the lapels of the navy mess dress white waiscoat?  Shawl or peaked (or anthing else)?  I've been told peaked but it sounds wrong because the waistcoat is single-breasted (not that the combination is impossible, but it seems 'incongruous').


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## Inch (30 Mar 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Due to lack of information at the local base tailor, I've the follwoing question:
> 
> What style are the lapels of the navy mess dress white waiscoat?   Shawl or peaked (or anthing else)?   I've been told peaked but it sounds wrong because the waistcoat is single-breasted (not that the combination is impossible, but it seems 'incongruous').



Maybe if you translated into english instead of using super fabulous terms that no normal man should know.


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## Cloud Cover (30 Mar 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> Maybe if you translated into english instead of using super fabulous terms that no normal man should know.



Here Here !!


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## Sailing Instructor (31 Mar 2005)

Shawl collared being rounded (like the airforce mess jacket lapels) & peaked lapels being like the lapels of the navy's black jacket (pointed up 'filling in' the notch where the collar and lapel meet.  (This point is known as the 'gorge.')

Though if the QM cannot give me a pattern, I suppose no one really cares which style of vest I have.


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## Steel Badger (31 Mar 2005)

The vest is unimportant....


It is the type of Parrot which is all important....... >


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## Neill McKay (31 Mar 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Due to lack of information at the local base tailor, I've the follwoing question:
> 
> What style are the lapels of the navy mess dress white waiscoat?   Shawl or peaked (or anthing else)?   I've been told peaked but it sounds wrong because the waistcoat is single-breasted (not that the combination is impossible, but it seems 'incongruous').



I don't have my waistcoat in front of me, but I'm almost positive it's shawl.  I agree with you that peaked or notched would look pretty weird.


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## Neill McKay (2 Apr 2005)

Further to my last, I've checked and the lapels are in fact of the shawl type.


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## Sailing Instructor (3 Apr 2005)

The officer who told me the lapels were peaked re-checked & found they were indeed shawl.


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## Ex-Dragoon (3 Apr 2005)

Hopefully you will show that much interest in the well being of your sailors under your care as you have in how well you will look.


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## Sailing Instructor (4 Apr 2005)

I should hope so!  That's one of the reasons I volunteer with my old sea cadet corps: in order to make my mistakes as a DO now rather than when it matters more (not that cadets aren't persons too, but the good of the CF outweighs a few individuals).


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