# Bloody end to Russia school siege



## Pikache (3 Sep 2004)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3624024.stm

At least 100 bodies have reportedly been found in a school in southern Russia where Chechen separatists had been holding hundreds of hostages. 
Heavy gunfire and loud explosions were heard throughout the morning as Russian troops stormed the school, in the town of Beslan in North Ossetia. 

There is confusion as to why the Russian forces went in, as the operation seems to have been unplanned. 

Hundreds of children were freed in the seizure, though some are badly injured. 

Russian officials confirmed that some dead had been found inside the school. Many of them are thought to have died when part of the school's roof collapsed. 

More than 400 people were injured. 


Click here to see the layout of the school 
The US White House condemned the hostage-taking as "barbaric" and blamed the hostage-takers for the lives lost during the storming of the school. 

'Unplanned action' 

More than 10 of the hostage takers are also reported to have died in exchanges of fire with troops as they tried to escape. 

But several hours after the assault, a group of rebels was still firing from a building in the school compound, Itar-Tass said. 

 AT A GLANCE (TIMES IN GMT) 
1407: 10 hostage-takers killed in shoot-outs - Interfax 
1345: More than 100 bodies found in school gym - Interfax 
1330: Security services say their assault on school was not planned 
1322: More than 400 people injured, officials say 
1125: Security forces attack house where some rebels thought to be hiding - reports 
1115: All hostages reported out of school 
0958: Special forces enter school 
0930: School roof said to have collapsed 
0905: Explosions and gunfire heard. Soldiers run to building 


At a glance: School siege  

According to police, the hostage-takers had split into three groups during the storming, with some staying in the school, others fleeing to the south and the remainder trying to blend in with the hostages. 


Russian security officials said they had still been intending to negotiate with them. 

"I want to point out that no military action was planned," said regional Federal Security Service chief Valery Andreyev. "We were planning further talks." 

Security forces had opened fire to save the lives of hostages who were being fired on by gunmen, he said. 

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford says a man who had been inside the building told her there had been an explosion and a wall had collapsed. This had been followed by gunfire and many more explosions. 

It is unclear what caused the initial explosion.


White sheets 

Correspondents say many of those released were desperate for water when they came out, and some were barely able to stand. 

  Relatives were running around screaming and crying 



Eyewitness: Chaos as battle grips school  
There were scenes of pandemonium, as children ran terrified and half-naked through the streets grabbing water bottles from medics. 

One boy described his escape. 

"I smashed the window to get out," he told Russian TV. "People were running in all directions... [The rebels] shot from the roof." 

Ambulances ferried hundreds of people to hospital. Our correspondent says at least 150 children were among them. 


Click below for a detailed map of Beslan 


Enlarge Map



Helicopters hovered overhead and there were troops everywhere. 

Reuters said six bodies lay covered with white sheets near the school gates, and parents filed past lifting the sheets to see whether their children were underneath. 


Officials put the number of hostages at 354 before Thursday's release, although the school has more than 1,000 pupils. 


The attackers - both men and women, some wearing bomb belts - struck on Wednesday, the first day of the new school year in Russia. 

***

Ivan doesn't fuck around when dealing with terrorists.


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## nULL (3 Sep 2004)

How would you tell if something like this was a success? More hostages live than die? It's certainly not a video game  

I can't help but feel that Canada wouldn't handle something like this well - I mean, what, we _just_ finished getting over what happened at Oka, didn't we? Reports and all?


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

Did you really expect it to end any other way?


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## winchable (3 Sep 2004)

Well I expected the hostage takers to come out of the school and put roses in the end of the Russian army Rifles...At which point the Russian Army would calmly take the terrorists into custody and they would be read their rights and garaunteed a decent lawyer and living quarters that meet standard quality of living levels.

Seriously though, if there is one place you'd have to be crazier then your average terrorist to take hostages in, I would think it'd be Russia.

Terrorist: "Here are our demand----."
Russian commander: "Here are ours, put down your rifles and we will leave enough of your bodies to send you home to your parents in an envelope."


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## jrhume (3 Sep 2004)

I don't think anyone expected this one to end cleanly, but it sounds like things finished up in an unplanned way -- not that a planned way would have been any better.

Once the terrorists had the hostages . . . I can't even imagine a decent ending.

Sad.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Sep 2004)

Unfortunatley, when dealing with thugs and terrorists, who have no intention of being taken alive and have no sense of compassion or humanity, there can only be one result. The best scenario, that can be hoped for, is a minimalization of collateral damage.


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## Razic (3 Sep 2004)

Supposedly a bunch of hostages tried to escape and the terrorists starting gunning them down, thats why the russian troops had to rush in without plan, cause kids were getting capped all over the place......... FFFFing Monsters


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Sep 2004)

I have read that as well that a bunch of children made a break for it and the terrorists started gunning them down from the roof tops.  There have also been reports of terrorist infighting.  The Russian army definately wasn't ready to go in.
The only other place worse to take hostages IMO would be Isreal.


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## Lexi (3 Sep 2004)

Humanity's going to hell in a handbasket... 
What a shame, they were children and women, have these men any compassion?
I guess not. It's at these sorts of times I'm glad I'm Canadian.

Lex


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Sep 2004)

Actually a lot of the terrorists are women and feel this action is the only way to get Russian out of their homeland.


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## Pieman (3 Sep 2004)

Any predictions on Putin's reaction to this? This atrocity combined with the highjacked planes, IMHO, gives him a golden ticket to do anything he wants to now. Putin is certainly not known for soft handed tactics, so I don't want to even venture a guess right now.


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Sep 2004)

Lexi said:
			
		

> Humanity's going to hell in a handbasket...
> ... have these men any compassion?
> I guess not. It's at these sorts of times I'm glad I'm Canadian.
> 
> Lex



Tell that to a person living in Hamburg who was alive in 1943.  The circumstances were different, I realize, but tens of millions of German women and chlidren felt the same way about Canadians once upon a time.

War sucks.


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## Kirkhill (4 Sep 2004)

With all respect to the Peel Regional team but .......

A platoon/company sized force in a mined building and 1200 kids for hostages, multiple buildings, multiple floors, multiple doors, multiple windows   -   a brigade couldn't have taken that place down cleanly, nor a super secret stealthy commando det.

The only solution was negotiation and neither side had anything to give.


Best of a bad situation -   1000 got out alive.

What do you do next time - damfino - try to get the buggers before they do it again?   Can't build enough big walls.


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## 1feral1 (4 Sep 2004)

Between 2100-2300 local Australian time last night I watched this event unfold live on Sky News, bouncing back to the BBC, Fox and CNNI. 

We are hearing here that it all started when some hostages escaped, and the terrorists began to start shooting them in the back as they ran for cover. So the Military Forces had to react rather than stand by and watch the slaughter. It goes to show you the true colours of the forces of evil we are up against today.

The volume of small arms fire with the odd explosion was tremendous at times, and there was a fair bit of unorganised pandamonium at times. One injured terrorist was kicked to death by parents and onlookers while he lay in a stretcher.

So, I am not going to comment on the politics of 'they should have done this, or that' in this truly sickening incident   :rage: , and I think all of us should take a moment to think about all those kids who were needlessly slaughtered by a bunch of   > 'fundimentalists'   >   on their first day of school. Imagine the trauma on their parents and families, and the survivors will truly be emotionally and in many cases physically scarred for the rest of their lives.

Again, the real insanity of war is put on to our TV screens.

Regards,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl (4 Sep 2004)

Be ready for a total assault covert and overt by the Russian Armed Forces!!


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## Jarnhamar (4 Sep 2004)

> One injured terrorist was kicked to death by parents and onlookers while he lay in a stretcher.


Good. Let the punishment suit the crime.


I say good on the russian forces for charging in and saving as many children as they can.


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

I was watching a thing on CBC last about this incident and noticed that they went out of their way to not use the word terrorist once. "Rebels" and "Hostage Takers" but never terrorist.....I dont know but I found that interesting.....


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## Sheerin (4 Sep 2004)

Could be North American bias?  I seem to recall CNN and the American news agencies were also avoiding the word terrorist.  Maybe its only terrorism if it happens here?

On CBC radio yesterday evening they were talking to a reporter from the LA times, anyway she related a story of one woman who was held in the building with her two children, and the terrorists allowed her to leave with one of her kids.  When she protested they told her that she and her kids would all die.  So she left with her one son, leaving her younger daughter. 
Now, i don't know if this true or not, but it came from a LA times reporter so i'll give it the benefit of the doubt.  I think she said that the daughter survived with only moderate injuries,whcih is good.  But could you imagine having to make that choice?  



> In Rush of Joy and Guilt, a Mother Regains Her Child
> Zalina Dzandarova finds her daughter safe after the school assault ends but is haunted by her choice to leave the girl and save her son.
> 
> 
> ...


You can get the full artice at the LAtimes website (www.latimes.com) althought it requires free registration.


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## beach_bum (4 Sep 2004)

The decision is very 'Sophie's Choice'.  As a parent I couldn't even imagine being forced to make that sort of choice.  I watched the siege on the news and was reading the ending in the paper this morning.  Horrifying!  It brought tears to my eyes.  I think the Russian soldiers did what they had to do.  I just can't understand the hostage takers and the mind frame they have in order to start killing innocent children.  I think any surviving should meet the same fate as the one that was kicked to death by the parents.


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## stukirkpatrick (4 Sep 2004)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/04/russia.school/index.html

Russia siege toll tops 350
Putin admits weakness, denounces 'attack on our country'
Saturday, September 4, 2004 Posted: 12:42 PM EDT (1642 GMT) 


BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- The death toll in the Russian hostage crisis has climbed beyond 350 as President Vladimir Putin denounced the massacre as "an attack on our country."

In a nationally televised speech Saturday, Putin said the fall of the Soviet Union had left the country unable to react to attacks, and he urged Russians to join together to fight terrorism.

"We must create a much more effective system of security," he said. "We couldn't adequately react. ... We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten." (Full story).

North Ossetia government spokesman Lev Dzugayev told CNN that 323 hostages, including 156 children, died in the siege in the southern town of Beslan. 

In addition, 26 hostage-takers -- including 10 people from Arab countries -- and at least 10 Russian special forces were killed. The two-day standoff ended Friday after Russian forces stormed the school amid explosions and intense gunfire.

More than 700 people were wounded, officials said.

Dzugayev said Saturday evening that 448 people were still in hospitals in the region, including 248 children. Among the total hospitalized, 69 were in serious condition.

Dzugayev said most of those who died were killed when a bomb exploded in the school gymnasium where hostages were being held, collapsing the roof and starting a fire. 

Of those who died from gunshot wounds, most were shot in the back as they fled the building, he said. 

Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky acknowledged that more than 1,000 people had been held hostage during the ordeal. Earlier, officials had placed the number of hostages at a few hundred.

Putin ordered the borders closed in the North Ossetia region where the siege took place as security forces searched for accomplices in the massacre.

Investigators are looking at the possibility that the hostage-takers may have brought their weapons and explosives into the school well before the siege.

The Interfax news agency quoted an unnamed regional security officer as saying the weapons had been hidden under the floor during summer construction work.

An escaped hostage said she recognized some of the terrorists as having done construction work, Echo Moscow Radio reported. 

Putin traveled to the traumatized region near Chechnya early Saturday, visiting wounded in the hospital and meeting local officials.

"Russia is grieving with the people of North Ossetia," he said in Beslan. "Nobody wanted to use force."

"Even alongside the most cruel attacks of the past, this terrorist act occupies a special place because it was aimed at children," news agencies quoted him as saying.

"One of the tasks pursued by the terrorists was to stoke ethnic hatred, to blow up the whole of our North Caucasus.

"Anyone who feels sympathetic towards such provocations will be viewed as accomplices of terrorists and terrorism," he said.

At least 79 bodies have been identified, the Emergency Situations Ministry said. Many of the bodies were burned beyond recognition and will require DNA testing for identification, which could take several days.

One witness told a reporter that a hostage-taker had set off a suicide bomb in a gymnasium full of children.

Interfax quoted a defense official as saying that "the terrorists planted a lot of mines and booby-traps filled with metal bolts in the gym."

Valery Andreyev, head of the local branch of the FSB intelligence service, said 10 of the hostage-takers killed were from Arab countries.

Chechens in the past have been affiliated with the al Qaeda terror network, and an Arab connection further suggests a link between the Chechen rebel movement and international terrorists. Chechen rebels have been fighting Russian troops for a decade. 

Near the scene, the bodies of dead children were placed on stretchers. One woman leaned down and caressed the body of a young boy. Other women stood shocked, holding their hands to their mouths and weeping. 

These and other images of the siege and its aftermath, aired on television and posted on the Internet, horrified people around the world and brought ringing outcries by international leaders. (Full story)

The hostage incident began Wednesday when an armed gang of terrorists took children, parents and teachers hostage on the first day of school in Beslan.

Friday's storming operation was not planned, said a local official from Russia's FSB intelligence service, who told Russian media the troops had been ready for a long siege. 

The forces stormed the building around midday after Russian officials, under a cease-fire agreement with militants, tried to collect bodies lying outside the building. 

There was an explosion, hostages fled, and hostage-takers opened fire on the children and rescue workers. One of the workers was killed and another was wounded. Russian troops then opened fire at the rebels, and the battle began.

Chaotic scenes
Several hours later the scene remained in chaos, with pockets of resistance remaining and machine-gun fire heard on the scene and troops going room-by-room as the wounded were being taken out of the building.

Children who survived said they were denied food and water and had to take off their clothes because of the heat. Some boys said they had to drink their own urine because they lacked liquids.

The standoff followed a bloody week in Russia. A female suicide bomber killed nine people outside a Moscow subway station Tuesday. Two suspected Chechen female suicide bombers downed two airliners on August 24, killing all 89 people aboard the planes.

Russian officials have said the new wave of attacks is an attempt at revenge for last weekend's elections in Chechnya in which a Kremlin-backed candidate won the presidency.

The Russian Foreign Ministry, in a statement posted on its Web site, thanked other nations for their support, condemned the incident and said a "moment of truth" had come in the fight against international terror. 

"We have witnessed a cruel tragedy, a new, unprecedented form of boundless terrorist lawlessness where bandits victimized innocent women, children, and even completely defenseless infants," the statement said. 

"The losses are heavy and irretrievable. Bandits were shooting hostages point-blank and were blowing up everyone indiscriminately.

"One needs to draw a lesson from this monstrous crime. It confirms yet again that terrorists are a bunch of beasts for whom nothing is sacred. They challenge the very foundations of civilization to achieve their criminal goals. Terrorism is absolutely incompatible with principles of morality and humanity," the statement said.


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

Has PM Martin come out and condemed this act yet? I heard Bush's.......


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## loyalcana (4 Sep 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> Has PM Martin come out and condemed this act yet? I heard Bush's.......



http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=251


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

Excellent. I was reading some articles my Aunt from texas sent me demanding to know where "Canada's" was. They dont mention it in the American news stories I've read.


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Sep 2004)

Can you post the links to those articles from your Aunt in Texas?


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/03/school.world.reax.ap/index.html

Heres one from CNN that doesnt mention us....


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Sep 2004)

Ah ok I was under the impression that the articles were complaining that Canada wasn't condeming the actions of these Chechen terrorists.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Sep 2004)

Sorry guys i'm confused.

People are pissed that Canada ddin't make a huge announcement that we don't agree with what the terrorists did?
Do we have to make a public announcement anytime something like this happens?   is there a time limit?

"Hell the Canadians haven't condemed the actions of those terrorists, they must be in league with them!"

Maybe I'm just not getting this..

I'm glad texans are so worried about us appologizing for everything bad happening in the world.


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

HA Ill pass that along Scooby-doo. You obviously havent spent much time in texas  ;D Everything is everyone elses fault and if your not with them you are a against them.  As for "annoucing" it I know what you mean and I agree but look at like this- your buddies kid dies do you not pass along condolences? Or do you keep quiet and assume he knows? A little different I know.....


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## Jarnhamar (4 Sep 2004)

If it happens to my buddies kid's I'd give him my condolences naturally.  If it happened to a complete stranger I wouldnt say anything because the last thing i think a stranger wants is someone feeling sorry for them. I do see your point to an extent an d i agree it's a little different.

I just think its BS that someone would take the time to get pissed off over something like that, to me THATS the real insult.


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## NavyGrunt (4 Sep 2004)

Its Texas. Everything is bigger in Texas and that includes tempers and accusations. In other Texas news they call a touque a "Toboggan".

"Jason its cold outside- put your toboggan on"

Oh man. I love that.

Anyways Ive hijacked a very serious thread. Sorry. 

In the end besides terrorizing children and parents what did the rebels get? Certianly not sympathy for their cause. This was probably the worst attack I can recall as it was directed at children. As if they have some sway over international policy. Its sick.


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## nULL (4 Sep 2004)

Well, if the whole point was to draw attention to whatever their "cause" is, it worked. The thing I don't get is what they hoped to accomplish by negotiation; if a group of terrorists take over a school for shock value, then wouldn't murdering everyone inside be "even better"? Or was the whole idea of taking over a school a means to ensure that the Russian Special Forces wouldn't try to use a morphine based gas again? 

This is going to sound stupid, but couldn't a "viable" solution be threatening to do something even worse to the Chechen population, as was done in Lebanon? "Stooping to their level" doesn't really sound bad, not after this.

The fight against people who would do something like this - it would be nice to see Canada doing something - or _anything_ - of real importance to combat this problem, instead of merely echoing the condolences of other countries.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Sep 2004)

The terrorists didn't get the reponse they wanted (sympathy) according to what I've read and heard on the news and most people will support Putin even more strongly.  I also saw on the news that Canada did issue a public comendation on the incident.  nULL what would you have Canada do?


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## nULL (4 Sep 2004)

Well, for starters, what good did Canada do last year? I'm not bashing the troops, far from it; but Afghanistan still sounds like it is a pretty dangerous, lawless country. What were troops doing patrolling Kabul, maintaining law and order? Wouldn't that be a job for an international constabulatory force? Shouldn't our troops have been off in the countryside hunting down and killing the remnants of the Taliban, the ones still attacking both foreign and local aid groups and forcing them out of the country?

For instance...

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/07/29/WorldNation/Doctors.Group.Leaves.Afghanistan.After.Staff.Murders-696457.shtml

I know it's my lack of experience talking, but I still think that Canada provided merely a token force, and that we can and should be doing more there.


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## Pugnacious (6 Sep 2004)

Somehow I think the Russian troops are more capable in dealing with this then Canada troops on many levels.
But I have to say if I was asked to go over and help somehow... I would.

Those poor kids... RIP
P. :-[


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## Pieman (6 Sep 2004)

> Somehow I think the Russian troops are more capable in dealing with this then Canada troops on many levels.
> But I have to say if I was asked to go over and help somehow... I would.



Wonder if there is a way that Canada could extend a hand over there that would be effective?     

I was looking at some of the pictures you provided to the Russian webpage on the other thread, and some of them were pretty awful. I have to say that I used to side with the Chechnian rebels when they were fighting for Independence with Russia. At the start of this conflict, they were trying to push out the Russian Army and government. (When did this conflict start? about 6 years ago?) At first they gave the appearance, in my book, of legit rebels in a legit fight for freedom. (Or maybe that was because of my lack of knowledge back then via CNN on the subject)   

Now, they have turned to these kind of tactics of killing children, suicide bombings etc. I wish the rebels would have accepted the fact that they lost the battle, instead of turning into bloody terrorists. I have no sympathy for them and I hope Putin hunts them down like dogs.


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## pbi (6 Sep 2004)

Null: You are being a bit hard on Canada:

_Well, for starters, what good did Canada do last year?_

How about running ISAF, and the Kabul Multi-National Brigade(KMNB), and providing the most capable battle group in ISAF? We had to give all of that up because our Army just cannot sustain a bill of that size. The US commander here very much wanted Canada to stay at full strength (we are pretty well respected by the US, despite our small size) but we just couldn't. We have now drawn down to about a third of where we were, and are no longer running our own Area of Operations (AOO)

_I'm not bashing the troops, far from it; but Afghanistan still sounds like it is a pretty dangerous, lawless country._


Outside Kabul it still is. Kabul is not perfect (see the bombing of the DYNCORPS building recently)   but the degree of security, stability and economic recovery that it has now is largely due to ISAF's presence. A secure and stable Kabul is vital to the future of this country.

_ What were troops doing patrolling Kabul, maintaining law and order? Wouldn't that be a job for an international constabulatory force?_

Not right now. The potential for the return of violence is still very high and will remain so at least until the Presidential elections are successfully completed in October, and perhaps even beyond that into next year depending on how the Provincial elections go. It is worth remembering that ISAF have suffered more losses from suicide bombers and carbombs than the US forces have.(Germans, UK, Cdns) Right now it is too much of a job for a constabulary force, although the Afghan National Police are playing an increasingly important role.

_Shouldn't our troops have been off in the countryside hunting down and killing the remnants of the Taliban, the ones still attacking both foreign and local aid groups and forcing them out of the country_

It depends on how you look at it. CJTF76, where I am working, is doing a very fine job of whacking and smacking the baddies under Operation Enduring Freedom. In fact, the last few days the ops briefings have been pretty tame-the sh*tbirds haven't been doing much. OEF has the hunting and killing part well in hand. And, not all the NGOs are leaving, by any means. There certainly is danger here, especially in the South and East, but it may not be quite the disaster the media depiicts. 

What ISAF, especially KMNB is doing is working to ensure that Kabul, which is the economic and political heart of Afghanistan, is a secure environment from which the new government can gradually extend its rule across the country. The long term plan is for OEF to gradually wind down and hand much of Afghanistan to ISAF. You will most likely see Canada move out of Kabul to take on operating a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT).PRTs are the combined military-civil organizations that both OEF and ISF are using to start rebuilding the country outside Kabul.

Cheers.


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## pbi (6 Sep 2004)

Correction note: my figures on ISAF vs US casualties could give the wrong impression. The US military across Afhanistan has suffered more deaths, total, than ISAF. A portion of these deaths have been by IEDs and VBIEDs but a number are combat deaths as well. (and there have been several deaths from negligent discharges). However, this does not lessen the point I was trying to make: Kabul is not Canada's Wonderland. Cheers.


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## Pugnacious (6 Sep 2004)

I'm with you on this Pieman.

What I have learned over the years is the roots of this conflict goes way back, back to Tsarist days in fact if not even before, with about as many twists and turns as what we have seen in Balkan politics.

Still in the back of my mind I cannot help think that this situation as not  created in part by the Soviets/Russians themselves.

This doesn't condone the acts we have seen, but explains abit of the build up to this point.
How would Canada respond if lets say it was invaded by the US not willing to let up on their loss in 1812, and our cities where turned to moonscapes? How far would we go? How would the world view us fighting back?

Desperate people do desperate things, and then out come the wing nuts, survivalists, Anarchists, mercenaries, and sociopath, to fill the gaps and ranks of the dead idealists...left behind are the ordinary people trying to survive in the rubble, and as the younger generation replaces the older one things become more bleak having grown up in a hell hole with no idea what it was like before the conflict.

So at times like this I have to remind myself, and others that these scumbags are the minority, and one cannot judge all of Chechnya for the actions of these scumbags, in fact they where mercenaries. Out of the 10 scumbags of the killed, 9 were Arabs , and one African.

IMHO I think how Canada can help would be to tighten its boarders and make sure we are not being a safe haven for terror groups to work in.  Because if we don't I'm sure someone else will take over the security of our country for us, and we won't like this.

Cheers!
P.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Sep 2004)

You want to help the kids in Russia then send some money.  We don't have the means or the will to do much more then we are already.


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## Bograt (7 Sep 2004)

Watching the events unfold on CNN I was understandably separated from the reality that was occurring- then I saw my daughter napping and then the horror of what happened sunk in. I quietly realized that it could happen here as well. I think many of us (Canadians) haven't accepted this reality. It can happen to Bali, Spain, UK, and the US. What make us so special- our maple leaf? 

Do you think that bastards like this really care that we play hockey and drink Tim Hortons? (I realize that this a a glib statement on Canadian culture, but the reality is we aren't that different in our fundamental views on whats right and wrong-like that matters to these bastards- than those already singled out.


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## Pugnacious (7 Sep 2004)

I was also thinking about this Bograt.
And sadly there is a ring of truth to what you are saying.

I'd be suprised if wingnuts like this are not in our country all ready.

Common sense and prevention seems to be obscured by a haze of apathy, and denile...esp' her on the west coast.

Then of course everyone in Canada would suddenly support our military, and then a few years later the military would be put back on the back burner.

P.


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## Torlyn (7 Sep 2004)

I'm still trying to find the article, and when I do I'll post it...  As an FYI (and NOT a defence of what occurred) the Warlord that is supposedly responsible for this was (according to the damned article I can't find) lucky enough to have the Russian military tie up, beat, and execute 11 members of his family...  Can't imagine that would endear him to the children that were massacred in the Russian school...

However, I'm still waiting for Bush to eat his hat about this one.  Remember WAY back, prior to September 11, when Putin went in to Chechnia to remove some terrorist factions, and the brilliant bush attacked him for it?  Wonder why he hasn't apologised yet...  I think that the Russian response will be more than adequate.  The sleeping bear, once awake, will be tough to hibernate again...

B.N.S.


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