# PT Time Taken Away



## Faustina (20 Jun 2008)

Hello All...
I have been told repeatedly that PT time is taken away due to "operational" reasons.  Since I work in an office as a green private (still hookless although I am 3s qual) I have tried to be as diplomatic as possible.  I have been doing ALL my PT in the evening  for the past year - meanwhile seeing all other areas in my wing doing PT everyday.  Is not the term "operational" supposed to mean "while under operations"?  That is, in the field?  Not in an office in a trade that is understaffed with no hope to change in the near future?  

Basically, what is the best way to solve this issue?  I know I could probably get a chit but do I really have to take it that far?


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Jun 2008)

Could you fill out your profile to give the rest of us a better idea of what you do and where.


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## Franko (20 Jun 2008)

Faustina said:
			
		

> Hello All...
> I have been told repeatedly that PT time is taken away due to "operational" reasons.  Since I work in an office as a green private (still hookless although I am 3s qual) I have tried to be as diplomatic as possible.  I have been doing ALL my PT in the evening  for the past year - meanwhile seeing all other areas in my wing doing PT everyday.  Is not the term "operational" supposed to mean "while under operations"?  That is, in the field?  Not in an office in a trade that is understaffed with no hope to change in the near future?
> 
> Basically, what is the best way to solve this issue?  *I know I could probably get a chit* but do I really have to take it that far?



A chit to do what? PT with your unit? 

Talk to your superior.

Regards


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## Haggis (20 Jun 2008)

The CDS Guidaance to Commanding Officers, Chapter 22, states quite clearly that the mantras of "PT on your own time" and "we don't have time for PT" will be eliminated.

So go, young Private, and tell your CO to read the CDS's Guidance.

On second thought, don't do that,.... but be sure you look it up on the DIN so you can be well informed when you quote The Big Cod.


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## X-mo-1979 (20 Jun 2008)

Faustina said:
			
		

> Hello All...
> I have been told repeatedly that PT time is taken away due to "operational" reasons.  Since I work in an office as a green private (still hookless although I am 3s qual) I have tried to be as diplomatic as possible.  I have been doing ALL my PT in the evening  for the past year - meanwhile seeing all other areas in my wing doing PT everyday.  Is not the term "operational" supposed to mean "while under operations"?  That is, in the field?  Not in an office in a trade that is understaffed with no hope to change in the near future?
> 
> Basically, what is the best way to solve this issue?  I know I could probably get a chit but do I really have to take it that far?



I hear yah.
Our mission statement for our task force said something like "physically fit". I have done about 12 PT sessions SINCE SEPTEMBER.8 of those I ran and organised myself.
Then right before deployment they will come out with some retarded PT program and injure soldiers.

Believe me being a green Pte has just about the same pull as a Mcpl when your boss's don't want to do it.

Good work on doing it in your own time.I commend you for it.I know how easy it is to just say "screw it" and look at PT as "doing something for the army ON MY TIME!" I know.I've done it in the past.

Keep up the good work,progress in rank and maybe someday we can change something in regards to physical fitness trumping filling per's info sheets.If I remain in the army that is one of my career goals.

PM me and we can talk for hour's on this subject.However I'm flying to Europe tomorrow on business.


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## PO2FinClk (21 Jun 2008)

Faustina said:
			
		

> still hookless although I am 3s qual


Makes sense to me as you need to be 4's qual and 30 months of service.

As for PT time, look at the DAOD on the subject, minimum of 5 X 60 minutes per week. It of course comes with caveats to allow flexibility in its enforcement to CO's.


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## medicineman (21 Jun 2008)

I've some personal knowledge of what's going on and it's the usual spiel - using the excuse that the day to day work never gets finished and it's work that's always going to be there regardless.  That, and a few supervisors that seem to think PT is a privilege and despite them being MCpls, are pretty sure they outrank the not only the unit CO, but the CDS as well.

My take on it anyway from what I'm hearing.

MM


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2008)

I don't really understand the question either.

You can't get in shape with morning PT only. You need to work out on your own time.
I recently got jacked up while doing PT on my own at night time around my house off base. An overweight NCO with a bag of McDonald's in the front seat decided to order his wife to roll down her window and yell at me across her while driving past in a van. He was going to charge my ass for wearing an army issue T shirt with civilian running shorts.
Not really relative to the conversation I just got a kick out of that dick head.
Some people (clearly) don't do PT on their own time, if you want to be in shape you have to.  Some people are just to busy to get it done in the morning.


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## Faustina (21 Jun 2008)

My question was about how to resolve the issue of not being allowed any PT time during the day.  And, by the way, I am a huge believer in doing PT on my own time...I am currently working on my first level of the Aerobic Excellance Award and logged most of my units on my own time.  In my first unit (this is only my second) I was given 15 min to 30 min tacked onto my lunch hour and I was happy to get it, especially since I was allowed to eat lunch at my desk while working.

But there is one more level to this whole PT thing for me...I quit smoking after 30 years of constant smoking and took up running instead.  I have nothing against smokers but, having said that, smokers do not curtail their own habit when we are understaffed and the smell alone makes me crave 40 minutes of running...


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## Armymedic (21 Jun 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I recently got jacked up while doing PT on my own at night time around my house off base. An overweight NCO with a bag of McDonald's in the front seat decided to order his wife to roll down her window and yell at me across her while driving past in a van. He was going to charge my ass for wearing an army issue T shirt with civilian running shorts.



You're joking about this, right?

if your not..pm me.


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## armyvern (21 Jun 2008)

Well,

Here in this Army Unit we get 3 X per week formed Unit PT.

Welcome to the world of the "growing Army" (where only the zero trades are being grown and not the support trades needed to look after that growing zero factor and the workload inherent with that) ... So, our 3 days PT per week stays, but our workload has increased exponentially with the volume of new zero's - but get used to working longer hours as a norm to get those regular day jobs done. 1/2 hour lunchs, and every work day not ending until 1700hrs (and many sp staff coming in after supper and on weekends to get their "actual" daily work done) - is now the NORM around here. And, it has to be because guess who's the first one's to yell and scream when our regular day jobs don't get done?

BTW, I smoke. I do get out for smokes during the day ... sorry to upset you about that, but being that I'm putting in about 65 hours a week at work normally just to keep on top of things ... I don't feel the least bit guilty about going out for that smoke. 

You may as well face a fact of life in understaffed purple trades these days precisely because it IS NOT going to change any time in the near or foreseeable future ...

If your Unit is doing PT "after hours" on an individual basis in order to enable support to your customers during regular working hours ... and you want to do PT during "regular" working hours - then just understand that your work must STILL get done and thus, your "regular" working hours will be extended (all quite legally and justifiably so) to ensure that work gets done.

Either way ... that "after-hours" time ... still won't be "yours" - it'll just be eaten up by working the extra hours to get your job done.

Good on you though for actually getting PT in on your own time -- too many don't these days.

It's all quite easy to sit back and scream about not getting PT time, or to slam purple trades for it ...

But hell, when you've got courses to kit from 0730hrs until 1600 hrs every day --- it doesn't go over really well when you tell a school "sorry we can't sp your request to kit your CAP course because we have to go to PT". It won't fly as a reason. So as a supervisor, what do I do ... keep the troops back from PT to support the course (and thus have my troops bitch at me for them having to do PT after hours that day) OR send the troops to PT as set out in the DAODs (and thus have the School bitch at me for non-support and it's impact upon their operations?).

If it were "once in a while" that the above conflict occured ... it's easy to deal with, but when it's a situation that is faced DAILY, it becomes much more of an issue. Monday this school wants booked, Tuesday that school wants booked, Wednesday this other school wants booked, and Thursday and Friday School X wants 2 different courses booked. And just try saying "no" to any of them so that your purple staff can go to PT - then sit back and watch the G4 staff emails begin flying about "failure to support" and "negative impact upon ops". 

Guess who wins in the end? The schools who need us at work (which is kind of ironic given that they'll also be the first ones to complain about purple trades not doing regular PT). Our ultimate job is to provide that support and it WILL happen, and the DAOD allows for that with it's "operational" caveat (and no, "operational" does NOT mean overseas).


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2008)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> You're joking about this, right?
> 
> if your not..pm me.



Wish I was brother. PM inbound


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## blacktriangle (21 Jun 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I don't really understand the question either.
> 
> You can't get in shape with morning PT only. You need to work out on your own time.
> I recently got jacked up while doing PT on my own at night time around my house off base. An overweight NCO with a bag of McDonald's in the front seat decided to order his wife to roll down her window and yell at me across her while driving past in a van. He was going to charge my *** for wearing an army issue T shirt with civilian running shorts.
> ...



Wow that is disgusting in so many ways. He should be charged and released.

PT levels across the military sound like they are horrible. Where I used to be, I was actually jacked up once for performing well on PT and making certain others look bad. I'm not even in that great of shape compared to what I want, but people take those with high PT standards as threats.


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## ArmyRick (21 Jun 2008)

I have noticed when i first joined the army in 1990 that PT was like a religion. It remained as such until early 2000s. I do remember the OP tempo being pretty damn busy in the early ninties (1992-1993 we were closing Cypres, had 2 battle groups in the balkans and we put the airbourne regt in Somalia). So I don't accept the Op tempo excuse from combat arms units.

It seems people find excuses to not do organized unit PT. There is always time. Even during courses you can squeeze it in. It would also help if we got with a real pair of combat boots that would work like hitechs, than you could form up your platoon and double them more often.

Where there is a will, there is a way. People need to start enforcing the PT standards and this includes leadership by example. In our unit, the RSM is getting all the staff and instructors to do the expres test (not for the sake of doing it but to see where the unit stands physically fit).

Physical Fitness needs to be a priority again, no excuses. Even if you have to have your unit rotate it through (split your group into a and b groups), A would take PT as a group on Mon-Wed-Fri and B take PT as a group Tues-Thurs and next week switch it up.


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## armyvern (21 Jun 2008)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I have noticed when i first joined the army in 1990 that PT was like a religion. It remained as such until early 2000s. I do remember the OP tempo being pretty damn busy in the early ninties (1992-1993 we were closing Cypres, had 2 battle groups in the balkans and we put the airbourne regt in Somalia). So I don't accept the Op tempo excuse from combat arms units.
> 
> It seems people find excuses to not do organized unit PT. There is always time. Even during courses you can squeeze it in. It would also help if we got with a real pair of combat boots that would work like hitechs, than you could form up your platoon and double them more often.
> 
> ...



We do switch it up here (when operational requirements allow for it) ... that's how we manage to pull off 3 days / week and _*only*_ an average of 10 or 15 hours overtime a week to do our daily jobs too just to keep our head above water.

Still need the overtime though when you're trade is short-staffed as it is and you've got 28 positions going unfilled because your trade isn't being "strenuously recruited" because it isn't zero.

Do you think leadership hasn't tried all kinds of things and "outside the box" suggestions like this?? We have, and we do.

But, when it comes right down to it ... op tempo IS affecting us. And, it WILL continue to do so until EVERY trade is manned at a proper and sufficient level to allow for support of domestic activity, international operational activity and physical fitness. You can only underman something for so long before SOMETHING has to give (and the troops DO have to sleep sometime ...) and I'll wager that supporting international ops, domestic training of those future soldiers for their deployments is higher on the list than PT when something has to take priority over another.

Eventually, ity gets past the point when you can just lay the blame on "poor leadership". We've gone beyond that now. It's BAD manning, it's the fact that the CF is UNDERMANNED (especially in the purple trades) and understrength to continue doing everything while our support positions sit unfilled, unrecruited for, and at the bottom of the Army's priority listing. If I don't do my job ... you aren't deploying. If I'm at PT - I'm not doing my job. If there's 6 positions like mine in my Unit and 2 are sitting unfilled ... that means there's 4 of me to do 6 people's worth of work each and every day. It's even worse at the Cpl/Pte level where we have 28 positions unfilled, but still have to do all that work too. 

If we don't, you've got no vehicle spares for LAV courses, you've got no ammo for students at CTC, no rounds for the guns, no kit getting issued, no LPO getting done to support you, ... and on and on. And trust me, WE hear about it. Finding excuses my ass. It is a fact of life these days in the purple trades.

Yes, we were busy in 92-93. Way back when our positions were actually fully staffed. Before those huge reductions in manpower occured. You want to talk op tempo overseas --- well I'll tell you this much ... I'm MUCH busier today than I was in 92-93 and I was friggin' busy then too. You're comparing apples and oranges ... and the FRP (government induced) that occured to the CF right after your 92-93 time period is exactly what causes us to be in the shape we are today. We are now reaping the "benefits" of that ensuing decade of darkness and all the pain and bitching that goes with it.

And, when I as a supervisor have to make a decision about whether or not my staff will split-shift to PT/work when I've got a 300 pers CAP course to kit so that they do not end up "cease training", a platoon to kit for overseas to TFA, and staying behind to input demands to get critical vehicles spares ordered, received, and distirbuted to the maint guys to fix vehicles needed for the same reasons and to avoid more "cease training" ... guess what gets cancelled? PT - and I have zero problems with that.

You want me to do it all in a 9 hour day ... then the system better start giving us the proper and required resources to DO it all in a 9 hour day instead of mirroring off the balme to "bad leadership". What a cop out to blame the Units at the lower levels for a system that is under stress, strain, and is overtasked for it's current manning levels.


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## Strike (21 Jun 2008)

Faustina,

If you're looking for ways to get PT incorporated into the thought process of your unit then talk to the sports rep.  Every unit should have one.  See if he/she can arrange for 2x/week at the gym or playing sports.  Something that gets people out of the office for an hour and having fun together.  We started this in our own HQ.  Things peterred off for a bit because of BFT training but I suspect they will get going again soon.  One day we play a sport of some type and the second day is a class taught by PSP staff.  We've had everything from spinning to cardio kick-boxing.

When I was at 427 the new CO stated that everyone would do PT 3x/week.  Everyone grumbled and groaned.  We were all working 9-10 hrs per day to begin with.  He stated he didn't want to see people pulling more that 40 hrs/week except to get ready for exercises/operations/deployments and that group PT was to be done as much as possible during work hours.

It was hard to implement at first, but if you were to try and take it away now I'd bet the unit would freak out.


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## ModlrMike (21 Jun 2008)

The sacrificing of PT in favour of work is based on the misapprehension that there is work to be _*done*_. I can tell you after almost 30 years service, that work is never _*done*_. There is always more work tomorrow, regardless of how hard you work today. In addition, there are those that feel that PT is an frill that doesn't contribute to the quality of the work the soldier/sailor/airman does. Again, let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. PT has a direct bearing on how well the troops perform. Fit troops will always out perform unfit ones. They spend less time on sick parade, are stronger, have better endurance... the list goes on.


As to the jacking for doing PT on my own time, all I have to say is "bring it on". Don't threaten to charge me unless you're going to actually follow through. I wonder what offence he would have come up with...


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Jun 2008)

Probably something to do with contravening dress regs.


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## ModlrMike (21 Jun 2008)

Perhaps, but unit PT kit is not uniform, and therefore not covered by the dress instructions. Just the same, when it came time for the RSMs to get together and discuss the issue, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be on the losing end.


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## Old Sweat (21 Jun 2008)

There never is enough time to do all the tasks mandated by higher, including fitness training. Having said that, the emphasis on fitness is light years ahead of where it was in the 'old army.' In 1980 I was a very junior lieutenant colonel at Mobile Command Headquarters at St-Hubert. A growing number of folks used to go to the gym or go for a run at lunch. Comes the testing time - the 1.5 mile run from the original aerobics scheme - and we all go and do it. However the husband (a sergeant) of the secretary of one of the generals died of a heart attack and the commander of the army ordered an immediate halt to all physical training.


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## armyvern (22 Jun 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The sacrificing of PT in favour of work is based on the misapprehension that there is work to be _*done*_. I can tell you after almost 30 years service, that work is never _*done*_. There is always more work tomorrow, regardless of how hard you work today. In addition, there are those that feel that PT is an frill that doesn't contribute to the quality of the work the soldier/sailor/airman does. Again, let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. PT has a direct bearing on how well the troops perform. Fit troops will always out perform unfit ones. They spend less time on sick parade, are stronger, have better endurance... the list goes on.
> 
> 
> As to the jacking for doing PT on my own time, all I have to say is "bring it on". Don't threaten to charge me unless you're going to actually follow through. I wonder what offence he would have come up with...



I'm not sure what he would have charged you with --- but am curious as to where his mind was.

As to your first paragraph ... There is always work to be done here right now. When it isn't ... courses and training cease. It's simple as that. Such is the world of purple here in the home of the green. Although I agree with you on fitness levels and it's impact upon health ... my point is:

In the land of purple these days:

If there's 10 hours of work to do every day (which there is, and which MUST be done so courses can continue), and there's 1.5 hours of PT to do 3 days per week -- that

50 hours of work will occur and 4.5 hours of PT WILL occur. One will not disappear to make room for the other. It can't, or courses stop and the fact of the matter is that the Army will NOT allow for courses to stop because a purple entity decided it needed to do PT. And, if you think the work can wait - you are sadly mistaken. I probably have 60 hours of work on my desk right now to do ... but which I prioritize - but that 60 hours of work must ALL get done this week (along with that PT).

Ergo, no matter what time of day the PT happens as a formed Unit: be it 0700-0830hrs OR from 1600-1730hrs ... We'll still be putting in those 10 hours of "actual job" work each day. 

If the member's whine is to have PT conducted during "working hours" so that he can free up that 1600-1730 hours for time at home ... it won't happen these days when the work still has to get done. They'll simply move PT to the 0700--830 timing and extend the regular work day to 1730hrs. It's happening around here now - routinely. I'm in a purple Unit that is only manned at 74% of it's required level due to it's low priority in the Army, and that's BEFORE we fill any of the outside of area taskings (or send mbrs on their own career courses etc) that we are regularily ordered to fill (no fills being non-accepted at a Pri 6 Unit) and every Unit/Command that we must provide support to (the Army training system BTW for all those new recruits) is a pri 2 Unit. And guess what? Even though, being Pri 6, and having our people "posted out with no replacements" -- fully 100% of the workload remains for those 74% of people to do, and, on top of that ... that 100% workload is about 130% higher than what it was a year ago due to the huge volume and increase in additional courses that we must provide support to right NOW. Every day. 

And you're right, health is suffering for it. We have more and more pers ending up on stress leave and working 1/2 days. But, that's not caused by lack of PT. And sending to to PT won't solve the situation. Increasing manning AND actually staffing positions to purple trades at the required levels to support that increased Army surge will. 5000 new Army people to support here this year ... and not a single RMS clerk or Supply Tech added to the orbat to support that increase with. Rather the opposite - post 28 of them away with "no replacement". 

Doesn't quite make sense to me to keep yelling "it's a leadership issue at the lowest level" or "the work can wait" ... when it certainly isn't/can't and hasn't been for a long time now. I put the blame squarely where it lies: unbalanced and unrealistic purple manning levels that have become institutionalized over the past couple of years due to the increased requirement for "zero" trades as we are at war in Afghanistan. Someone, somewhere, and soon, is going to have to accept and deal with that reality ... before the support system to training and deployments breaks ... because the branch around here is already beginning to wobble.


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## Disenchantedsailor (22 Jun 2008)

I have to weigh in on this one,  finding myself on course again (this latest round after close to 10 years after being on my last Army course), while on course PT happens every day, but as soon as you are no longer on course you no longer do PT during working hours (save for combat units). However, we will kick your arse out if you fail to maintain a minimum standard. I can imagine myself assisting a redress for a soldier who not permitted by their chain of command to go to PT on the queens time.  The CDS has made it very clear, that mentality is to stop not tommorrow, now. If it boils down to supporting coursing or unit kit-ups sure I can see the requirement to limit or even deny a mbrs normal PT Schedule, that said, it should be an infrequent restriction and not a daily one.  There is no reason why mbrs of todays army (navy or airforce) cannot go to the base gym during Her Majesty's precious time, even if it means 1 person goes at 8, the next at 9 the next at 10 and so on.  The fact is that any member of the CF no matter the cap badge, colour of uniform could see themselves preparing for deployment tommorrow and if that is the day they start preparing thier body for the riguors of combat, it is too late, supervisors at all levels must ensure not only that thier soldiers have the time to stay in shape, but that they do stay in shape.  And Vern I totally understand your particular predicament being out your way not that long ago,  maybe the answer is telling the schools, my soldiers are out for pt come back in an hour, and let them complain all they want, they do PT at 5 am,  but their soldiers are students on a course where time is limited,  and I could be wrong but all courses have a course storesman, who can manage thier day around another units PT schedule.  I know its a rather black and white way of looking at it.


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## armyvern (22 Jun 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> And Vern I totally understand your particular predicament being out your way not that long ago,  maybe the answer is telling the schools, my soldiers are out for pt come back in an hour, and let them complain all they want, they do PT at 5 am,  but their soldiers are students on a course where time is limited,  and I could be wrong but all courses have a course storesman, who can manage thier day around another units PT schedule.  I know its a rather black and white way of looking at it.



Exactly. We work at the courses/CTC/CFSME/LFAA (TC) convenience due to their students/course time being limited. Too many schools, too many courses, not enough support staff and each and every's schools idea of "timings good for them" conflicts with timings that are "good for other schools". Essentially, during the timings that the Inf School does NOT need us, one of the other schools does ... and so on. Our work can not get passed off because "it's always there" ... if those courses are to maintain training. Essentially, every hour between 0730-1600 hrs ONE of those courses in ONE of those schools needs us - and it's always "essential" that we comply with their timings in order not to effect their op routine.

PT happens during hours that the schools do not need us - whether that be 1600-1730hrs or whatever.

Geez, we even had complaints about the lack of support which occured last Friday morning ... while we were out doing our friggin' BFT for crying out loud. And, we had split staff. 2 BFTs - 2 Fridays in a row - yet still complaints about "the minimal staff being at clothing to serve our students". It's a lovely work enviornment to be in routinely. Not.


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## Run away gun (22 Jun 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> I have to weigh in on this one,  finding myself on course again (this latest round after close to 10 years after being on my last Army course), while on course PT happens every day, but as soon as you are no longer on course you no longer do PT during working hours (save for combat units). However, we will kick your arse out if you fail to maintain a minimum standard. I can imagine myself assisting a redress for a soldier who not permitted by their chain of command to go to PT on the queens time.  Th



There are only a couple units in this army that will keep you in shape from just doing unit morning PT. And people who are failing standard annual PT tests are not in this units. Passing a BFT or express test does not make you fit. 

It is the responsibility of the member to keep up to snuff on their own PT standard, so they can continue to do their job when the poo hits the fan. Duty, Honor, Integrity, Self Discipline.


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## ModlrMike (22 Jun 2008)

Vern, your points are well taken, and you're right, work for courses etc can't be left overnight. I lay the blame for the PT vs trg on the bean counters who demanded that courses be shortened in order to meet some arbitrary measure of fiscal efficiency. The result was that PT was cut out of the course because was felt that it didn't contribute to core skills or knowledge. Now that we're required to renew our focus on PT, we still have the same number of trg days, but have to add PT back to the schedule.

I'm not sure what the solution is, except to say that we need to create a culture of fitness similar to our British and American cousins. For them, PT is a core value that trumps most everything else. It starts in basic trg, is continued through trades trg, and becomes a way of life for most of the soldiers. By creating this culture of fitness, it becomes the expectation at home, and while on course. Hopefully, the CDS direction on fitness will allow for some lengthening of courses in order to include more PT.


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## ModlrMike (22 Jun 2008)

Run away gun said:
			
		

> It is the responsibility of the member to keep up to snuff on their own PT standard, so they can continue to do their job when the poo hits the fan. Duty, Honor, Integrity, Self Discipline.



Yes it is, however if fitness is a condition of service, then the Service has an obligation to provide the time and facilities required to maintain ones' fitness, and not lay the entire burden on the member.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Jun 2008)

Different units have different SOPs.  My current unit, we get 3 x PT sessions (individual trng) Mon-Wed-Fri from 0730-0830, and have to be at the shop NLT 0915.  There is flexibility with that, and it boils down to we are authorized 4.5 hours a week, if we want to break it down differently if we want to do something like swimming at lunch, etc and provided it doesn't interfere with high priority work or timings.  This is great because it allows us to schedule PT around med/dent/etc appointments.

There is not a huge stress on the importance of PT in my current unit and there are some FAT people walking around here, but that has no bearing on what I do/do not do.  Someone having a lower standard is not a reason/excuse for me to have one as well.  

As for all these comments about 'on the Queens time' for PT, shake your heads.  You aren't some unionized federal public servant on hourly wages.  You are mbrs of the CF.  You are paid a monthly wage, which is the equivalent of being a salary employee, right?  You are subject to the CSD 24/7 because, effectively and officially, you are on duty every single second you are not on Leave, at which point in time you are not on duty, but still subject to the CSD.  So effectively, unless you have a Leave Pass, you ARE on the Queens time.  Disagree?  Fine.  Next time your unit practices its recall/fan out list, when they call you, tell them you don't have to come in because "you aren't on the clock right now".  I am betting you'll be the guest of the CSM and/or Adjt in the near future.   8)

We are off from 1200-1300 for lunch where I am.  Some people waste that hour.  Sometimes I work thru it.  Most time, I am at the gym lifting weights for 40 minutes (easy to do if you Superset your workout).  I am usually then back at the gym at 1530 for a 2nd round of cardio, and home well in time for The Simspsons at 1700.  With the evening to myself, and up to 3 PT sessions done between 0630-1700.  It can be done.

For the original poster, talk to your immediate superior vebally, explain the situation and ask for PT time.  If you get the run around, thats time to start with memo's, referencing the applicable CANFORGENs, DAODs, etc.  If you need help with that stuff and can't get it at your unit, by all means, PM me and I will help.


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## PO2FinClk (23 Jun 2008)

DAOD 5023-2


> *Context*
> The CF is committed to maintaining high levels of operational effectiveness and readiness.
> 
> To achieve high levels of operational effectiveness and readiness, CF members are required to be physically fit and able to perform general military, common defence and security duties, as well as meet the demands of their military occupation.
> ...


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## jzaidi1 (23 Jun 2008)

I remember PT - While at CFSCE we have a Warrant Officer who'd get SO giddy about PT everyday it drove us to HATE it.  Every other unit did PT on Fridays and did something fun like play soccer or cross training, but our Squadron was different - it was always running, the same circuit every time 5 days a week.  It became a routine mainly becaused it never really challenged us to stretch ourselves beyond our limits.  I wish that structured weight training and upper strength training be included but that was something that had to be done on our own time.  Now that I am older I can appreciate the WO's enthusiasm for keeping physically fit.

J


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## Faustina (23 Jun 2008)

ArmyVerne, I tried to use part of your post as a quote but..tech issue..using a laptop for the first time.  Anyhow, you really know the issue and I totally understand that the purple trade is slammed.  However, I think that some people (at least myself) would like to have the option of working late OR doing PT on your own time.  For myself, as an ex-smoker, that would work best.  For others with family obligations and so on, that would not work.  Maybe I am just craving being treated like a grown-up.  But also, I find that a day of sedentary work really burns me out and it is almost impossible to dredge up the ambition to work out by the time I get home in the afternoon.  I read somewhere that people that do their work-outs earlier in the day tend to keep doing it.

I don't resent smokers that take smoke-breaks except when they don't make up the time.  Most smokers I know - and remember I was one for many eons - do that gladly.  Well, I'm like that with running/fitness.  That endorphine release gets me thru my nic fits, which I will probably have for the rest of my life.  The other issue that bothered me about PT time being taken away was the lack of support for fitness.  At my last unit, my CC used to take me out running at lunch and run intervals with me and check my push-ups.  I miss having someone give a &^%$...know what I mean?

There is a light at the end of the tunnel though.  I just got a new supervisor and he is tacking on 30 min onto lunch 2 to 3 times weekly (starting tomorrow) for PT.  I am still going to invest a lot of my personal time in PT though..at my age it's all about the maintenance.  He has also threatened  : to "spot check" and take us for a run...bring it on!


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## ArmyRick (24 Jun 2008)

From what I see, it is a leadership issue but not at the MCPL/SGT/WO level. It goes much, much higher level. I think it needs to be command riven that PT is going to happen on work time. If this means we have tio up recruiting for purple hats or hire civies to help out, or whatever, it can be done. It is not at our level that this problem can be solved, I am looking at LFC or area commanders mandating and the decision being enforced.


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