# C7 Zeroing from the 100m with a 300m elevation setting? Why?



## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

Can anyone explain to me how this works?


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## 48Highlander (26 Sep 2005)

Uh.  It doesn't?  Where'd you get that idea?


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## aesop081 (26 Sep 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Uh.   It doesn't?   Where'd you get that idea?



counterstrike/rainbow six/etc...     ???

 ;D


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## PPCLI MCpl (26 Sep 2005)

Are you perhaps talking about the C-9?

The CZP for a C-9 is 125mm above the Point of Aim when fired at the 100m point with sights set at 300.


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

It is done with iron sights - the C7 - not C7A1/A2 with C79/A2.

 The rationale is so you could/can engage from 0-500m.

Realistically it is not a good battlesight zero -- but it is good for when we shot service rifle matches (100-500m) with the carry handle irons...


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## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

> Uh.  It doesn't?  Where'd you get that idea?



Well, thats how I was zeroed in BIQ for my PWT3.


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## 48Highlander (26 Sep 2005)

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Well, thats how I was zeroed in BIQ for my PWT3.



 ???

I really hope that was with the iron sights.  Otherwise someone needs to redo the small-arms coaching portion of their leadership course.


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## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

Im afraid not. That was with the C79 optical sight attached. It seemed wrong to me so I even asked to make sure I heard them tell me to set it to 300m, and they confirmed it. At the time I wasnt going to ask questions about it though.


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## Britney Spears (26 Sep 2005)

To set the sight to 300m, you turn the dial to "3".

The little metal tab is not 300m.


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## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

> To set the sight to 300m, you turn the dial to "3".
> 
> The little metal tab is not 300m.



Ok, enough with the sarcasm and disbelief. I know what they setting is what, and I know what they told me to set it to. This is what the aptitude test is for, to make sure you know your numbers, among other things, remember?


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Im afraid not. That was with the C79 optical sight attached. It seemed wrong to me so I even asked to make sure I heard them tell me to set it to 300m, and they confirmed it. At the time I wasnt going to ask questions about it though.



Your Small Arms Cadre is RTFO.  I could go on a large rant about how typical this is in the CF and the incredible bunch of incompetant boobs the CF has promoted and the demise of small arms competancy in the Army - but the facts speak for themselves...


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## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

> Your Small Arms Cadre



? I assume you mean coach?



> I could go on a large rant about how typical this is in the CF and the incredible bunch of incompetant boobs the CF has promoted and the demise of small arms competancy in the Army - but the facts speak for themselves...



What worries me is, the PWT3 is something essential to pass to pass BIQ. If the zeroing is fucked from the start, that screws you over. I had to aim off the target to actually hit the target, and there was no wind. I thought maybe there was a reason I couldnt figure out behind zeroing at the 100 with a 300m elevation setting, but apparently, from your responses, theres not. That just makes me wonder what other things I was taught the wrong way of doing...


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## Britney Spears (26 Sep 2005)

Forgotten: Think about it, what are the chances that you, a new recruit, may have misheard or misremembered, versus the chances of a RegF Infantry NCO not knowing how to zero a rifle? Sure, the latter is possible, but not likely. 

Well, maybe KevinB thinks otherwise, but I think KevinB is just an angry angry man....



> 101. Zeroing Procedure. The procedure for zeroing the
> weapon is as follows:
> a. With optical sights set at 200, with the small
> aperture set on iron sights, fire a five round
> ...










Show the pam to your instructor and correct him/her. I'm sure you will be amply rewarded for your initiative and sense of duty.


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## 48Highlander (26 Sep 2005)

Uh, yeah, just....it'd be a good idea to make sure nobody else is around when you attempt to correct your instructors.

Just to translate britney's post into english:

When zeroing from the 100 meter point with a C79, you set the elevation dial to 200 meters.  The center of the group which you fire should be 50mm, or 2 inches, above where you were actualy aiming.


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## teddy49 (26 Sep 2005)

Well, maybe KevinB thinks otherwise, but I think KevinB is just an angry angry man....

That's certainly true ;D

Show the pam to your instructor and correct him/her. I'm sure you will be amply rewarded for your initiative and sense of duty. 
[/quote]

And for your reward here's 200 pushups....oh...wait...never mind.

Ahh the bad old days ;D


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## Forgotten_Hero (26 Sep 2005)

> Forgotten: Think about it, what are the chances that you, a new recruit, may have misheard or misremembered, versus the chances of a RegF Infantry NCO not knowing how to zero a rifle? Sure, the latter is possible, but not likely.



Considering that I asked to verify, and I have other people from the course that can corroborate my story, quite possible and likely. BTW, he wasnt RegF.



> Show the pam to your instructor and correct him/her. I'm sure you will be amply rewarded for your initiative and sense of duty.



Hahahahahaha. That instructor isnt from my unit, and if I "corrected" him on my course, I would have gotten in shit for talking back.


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

KevinB maybe very angry and dissolutioned - but KevinB has had to verbally and physically (with a frickin chalk board) correct M/Cpl and Sgt's - Reg force


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## TCBF (27 Sep 2005)

Nothing new here.  With Canadian Arsenals Limited iron, we constantly had to repeat "To raise the MPI, lower the foresight, move the rear sight in the direction you want the MPI to go."  But still, we constantly had people moving sights the wrong way .   Same old same old.

TCBF's method of boresighting the 25mm chaingun:

1.  Dont.
2.  Pretend you are to avoid over-zealous AAA grads (Advanced Armoured Arseholes) from harrrassing you.
3.  Fire the zeroing practice.  Amaze others with how close your 'boresight' was to reality, vice theirs.

Tom


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## KevinB (28 Sep 2005)

Front - Away
Rear - Towards
 How they did it to us.

Now its right is raise - Left is lower
Windage Right = Right  
 Left = Left.


 I hear you on the LAV boresighting issue...


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## 2Charlie (6 Nov 2005)

Ahh,

I love it when the trigger guys come out to play, NOT.

For starters, those of us who are SHOOTERS, and employed as shooters sight our weapons at in accordance with the 300 m setting.

I don't think I will explain it here, but those who have been employed as trunk monkeys, shooters and the like know why.

Suffice to say the initial zero is done at 25 m using a sighting targert.  Once the sights have been dialed in.  We go back to the 100 and confirm.  After that it is run ups from the 100, 50, 25, 15 and 5 m lines.

Most shooting is done within the 25 m box and around 300 m.


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## MJP (6 Nov 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> TCBF's method of boresighting the 25mm chaingun:
> 
> 1.   Dont.
> 2.   Pretend you are to avoid over-zealous AAA grads (Advanced Armoured Arseholes) from harrrassing you.
> ...



Hey did you copy from me.....funny how my first zeroing round always splashes in front of the target and the rest magically hit.


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## 48Highlander (6 Nov 2005)

2Charlie said:
			
		

> Ahh,
> 
> I love it when the trigger guys come out to play, NOT.
> 
> ...



Ahhh, it's a special-forces-sniper-ninja-commando thing is it?  Well then, I'm sure we all apologize for speaking when we obviously have no idea what we're doing.  Forgive us oh mighty Shooter.


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## KevinB (7 Nov 2005)

Thats funy.  Yeah I know some who advocate a 25m zero for a C8 for CQB -- but a CAG buddy gave a very good rational for 100m zero.

Ideally you will have a chance to shoot your weapon from 5-600m and get a known POI - and if you have a scope that can (S&B SHort Dot or some of the other combat variables) you can get real zero's at all those ranges.

 5,10,25,50,75,100,150,200,250,300,350,400,450,500,550,600 - Ideally you should know you POI's with a given POA --- however if you have a dedicated zero at 100m - save the paper take it in your weapons case (or weapons bag if your a downtrodden soul) - when you zero to adjust your weapon for the atmospheric/temp/pressure alt chnages at 100m - you will then still know where your rounds go at other ranges.  With a 25m zero you had best be one holing - but it will be hard to guarantee your zero is bag on for your dealing in 1/4MOA shift vice 1 MOA and consequentially doing 4MOA shifts.

If you are a C8CQB/EOTECH shooter the same principle applies -- just use a 50M POI/POA zero -- but still confirm at the 100m point (the 50m IBSZ - will give a +/-2" 50-250M fligth path with a 14.5" C8 and a 4" +/- for fligth path with the 10" C8CQB.  Same theory.

From a paper I got from then CWO(3) Mike Haugen the (then) S7 for 1 SFG(Abn)


> B. Accuracy. It is generally believed throughout the SOF community that the M4 and 5.56 are not overly accurate at ranges past 300 meters. This âââ€šÂ¬Ã…â€œbeliefâââ€šÂ¬  has been supported by routine training at ranges below 300 meters, more commonly less than 50 meters.
> 
> 1) Cause of issue: The cause of this particular issue stems from the same place, as does lethality, however examples of poor accuracy are even harder to obtain. The most common heard/red comment is generally how inaccurate 5.56mm generally is or more specifically how inaccurate M855 specifically is.
> 
> ...


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## Gayson (30 Dec 2005)

Maybe the coaches had the idea that it would be easier to hit targets at the 300m line, if the rifle was zeroed at 300m?

 ???


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## Mineguy (30 Dec 2005)

Just my 2 cents on zeroing...I did some "competetion" shooting with mr. cunnigham of the RCR who im sure some of you know. Did this back in the 90s. We zeroed our weapons as kevin b points out at all ranges but with the "open gate method". We zeroed at 100m and then with the adjustment gate lock under the elevation wheel always up we marked off the increment and liquid papered the square of the increment for 100m At all other ranges it was marked off (or paint scratched off the increment square) the same as going by the clicks on the main wheel wasnt so accurate because each sight was manufactured slightly diffrent. Now bear in mind this was the first generation sight from elcan. I used this method ther whole time i was in the army after and i always did well on the range with POI where i thought it would be and expected as per the little figure 11 targets pocket books we carried with all the details for each range 100-600 some of you may know about from using them. Also the kentucky windage worked well when using the flag position and judging wind. I would have liked to learn how to read the mirage from him. I have a couple of freinds who served in Rhodesia and they needed to use that there at times in the heat. We also used the saftey on drill (squeezing 9 times on the trigger hard as we could in the aim in a proper shot sequence, then on the 10th taking off the saftey and doing a proper shot with shot relase and folowthrough )to get the exact trigger pressure dwn which works acceptinally. Mr. Cunnigham does the mental marksmanship lecture which is worth hearing and definitly works, i still use it in other parts of my life to hit the target as intended when i want to do well!...to note for a 2000 3 RCR (bosnia training) section competetion i showed this to an Engineer team I was on and many of the other skills he taught us and we had some of the top shooting scores and thats a new one for engineers who are never usually on the rnage much, well at least in my time!..i was taught on my small arms coach course (ran by 2RCR sniper 1994) that the first setting of  was for all 1-2 hundred meters applications and that the second closed gate setting on the big wheel was 300 and onwards....


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