# Interesting Navy find...



## lethalLemon (4 Jul 2011)

Has anyone seen the sleeve rank stitching actually employed on a real uniform for *Nursing (maroon striping) and Medical Officers (red striping)* after the Executive Curl returned? I'm curious to see how it looks - either on sleeve or shoulder boards/slip ons. Photos of Officers in said pattern uniform would be great! Thanks!

Photo attached for reference.


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## jollyjacktar (5 Jul 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the sleeve rank stitching actually employed on a real uniform for *Nursing (maroon striping) and Medical Officers (red striping)* after the Executive Curl returned? I'm curious to see how it looks - either on sleeve or shoulder boards/slip ons. Photos of Officers in said pattern uniform would be great! Thanks!
> 
> Photo attached for reference.



Have seen it on the shoulder boards, looks just like it did before except it now has the executive curl.


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jul 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Have seen it on the shoulder boards, looks just like it did before except it now has the executive curl.



Actually JJT the medical branch shoulder boards had a maroon background before the EC but it was very dark so you may not have noticed it.


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## Pusser (5 Jul 2011)

A slight correction:

Medical officers (i.e. physicians) have scarlet "distinction cloth" while all other officers of the medical branch (i.e. pharmacists, nurses, etc) have maroon.

Until 1955 all RCN officers, with the exception of the Executive Branch (modern day MARS officers) wore distinction cloth (e.g. white for Supply, purple for Engineering, etc.).  The practice was stopped largely due to an increasing number of specialist branches, but no corresponding increase in distinguishable colours of cloth.


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## Blackadder1916 (5 Jul 2011)

The distinction cloth is nothing new.  If I recall correctly, the current Surg Gen (Commodore Hans Jung) had the scarlet between his (LCdr) stripes when we were in Baden in 92-93, but that may have been in advance of official approval.  His photo on the DSA biography page, however does not show any distinction cloth and is still without the executive curl.  Two other senior medical branch pers in navy uniform are also without curl in their photos but do show the distinction cloth.

A doctor:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=690

Not a doctor:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=902


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## Pusser (6 Jul 2011)

I should have been a little more clear.  The use of scarlet and maroon distinction cloth for medical branch officers did continue after 1955 (the only branch that kept it) up until unification in 1968.  I'm not sure if it reappeared immediately when the DEU was introduced (c. 1984), but it did at least follow shortly thereafter.  The RN still uses it in their medical branch.

Distinction cloth for officers with only one stripe (i.e. NCdt, A/SLt and Cmdre) consists of a strip of colour immediately below the stripe.  I don't know why Commodore Jung doesn't appear to have it (could be it just doesn't show up in the photo).  Traditionally, the backing cloth for flag officers' shoulder boards would be in the appropriate colour (i.e. gold shoulder board would be trimmed in scarlet/maroon vice navy blue), but I've never actually seen that done in recent years.  It could be because there are so few medical branch officers at the level that they would have to do it at their own expense and just haven't bothered.


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## MSEng314 (4 Aug 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> A slight correction:
> 
> Medical officers (i.e. physicians) have scarlet "distinction cloth" while all other officers of the medical branch (i.e. pharmacists, nurses, etc) have maroon.
> 
> Until 1955 all RCN officers, with the exception of the Executive Branch (modern day MARS officers) wore distinction cloth (e.g. white for Supply, purple for Engineering, etc.).  The practice was stopped largely due to an increasing number of specialist branches, but no corresponding increase in distinguishable colours of cloth.



Purple for engineering, it all makes sense now. Perhaps that is why some engineering officers on ship insist on signing everything in purple ink. Or it could just be them I suppose...  :


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## vincent.escanlar (27 Sep 2011)

From my closet, some photos of the executive curl and medical scarlet distinction stripe in action, compared to the previous:


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## cupper (27 Sep 2011)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the origin of the executive curl on naval uniforms is?


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## GAP (27 Sep 2011)

Targets?


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## mariomike (27 Sep 2011)

cupper said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the origin of the executive curl on naval uniforms is?



Topic: Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/92470.0
( 18 pages )

Topic: Executive Curl Naval Officer Ranks  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93963.0


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## Occam (27 Sep 2011)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> A doctor:
> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=690



Is it just me, or is that specialist skill badge (can't tell if it's ship's diver, or diving medical) that is on her left sleeve screaming "_I don't belong here!!_"?


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## PuckChaser (27 Sep 2011)

Is that the new Sea Service insignia?


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## Occam (27 Sep 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Is that the new Sea Service insignia?



Nope, on a Navy uniform it would be above the name tag...on Army/Air Force it would be on the sleeve.


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## aesop081 (27 Sep 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Is that the new Sea Service insignia?



No.


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## cupper (27 Sep 2011)

It may have something to do with the diving medicine courses which are mentioned in the bio. She also has winged insignia over the medals which may have something to do with the aviation medicine as well.


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## cupper (27 Sep 2011)

Who'd a thunk that Wikipedia would have the answer to my question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_curl

The origin of the Executive curl, or “Elliot’s Eye,” is somewhat of a mystery. One story is that it is in memory of Captain George Elliot (1813–1901), who when wounded in the arm in the Crimean War used the gold on his sleeve as a sling; this was then alternatively named after him: Elliott’s eye. It is also believed that the Elliott’s eye referred to is the method of making an eye in a hemp cable and said to have been introduced into the Service by the Honourable William Elliot, a member of the Board of Admiralty in 1800 and 1801.


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## Occam (28 Sep 2011)

cupper said:
			
		

> It may have something to do with the diving medicine courses which are mentioned in the bio. She also has winged insignia over the medals which may have something to do with the aviation medicine as well.



It's not a question of whether she's entitled to the badge (whatever it is) or not;  it's that I've never seen a specialty skill badge in that location, nor can I find anything in the dress regs that allows for it to be there.  Didn't mean to derail the thread...it just leaped out at me when I saw the picture.


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## Monsoon (28 Sep 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> It's not a question of whether she's entitled to the badge (whatever it is) or not;  it's that I've never seen a specialty skill badge in that location, nor can I find anything in the dress regs that allows for it to be there.  Didn't mean to derail the thread...it just leaped out at me when I saw the picture.


I believe it indicates that she's a "Flight Surgeon", which is a primarily Air Force medical specialty that is also responsible for overseeing diving medical issues in the Navy.


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## Occam (28 Sep 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I believe it indicates that she's a "Flight Surgeon", which is a primarily Air Force medical specialty that is also responsible for overseeing diving medical issues in the Navy.



<sigh>

The Flight Surgeon badge is the one above her undress ribbons.  I can't tell which badge the one on the sleeve is; it's irrelevant.  My point is that I've never seen any specialty skill badge in that location on the sleeve, nor can I find anything in the dress regs which allows you to wear a second specialty skill badge on the sleeve.


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## Pusser (28 Sep 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> It's not a question of whether she's entitled to the badge (whatever it is) or not;  it's that I've never seen a specialty skill badge in that location, nor can I find anything in the dress regs that allows for it to be there.  Didn't mean to derail the thread...it just leaped out at me when I saw the picture.



If your profile is correct (25 yrs retiring in 2011), then you were asleep in the 80s.  When the DEU was first introduced c. 1985, all specialist skill and flying badges on naval uniforms were worn on the left cuff.  This originated from the former RCN practice of wearing flying and diving badges in that location, but, this was unpopular and the location of all specialist skill and flying badges was later changed (early 90s I believe) to it's present location on the left breast, above the ribbons or medals.  However, we still wear specialist skill and flying badges on the left cuff of our blue mess jackets.

I suspect that the officer in question wishes to wear two specialist skill badges and has opted (incorrectly) for a combination of both locations.  What she should be wearing is a full size badge above the ribbons and a miniature of the other badge underneath.

It is worth noting that in 1985 we also wore our ribbons and medals high on the shoulder in former RCN fashion as well.  When we moved the specialist skill badges up to the breast, we also moved the ribbons and medals down to pocket level.  The RN still wears flying badges on the left cuff (search on line for a picture of Prince Philip or Prince Charles in RN uniform), but RN submariners wear their dolphins above their ribbons and medals (which are worn high on the shoulder).


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## Occam (28 Sep 2011)

I wasn't asleep in the 80s...drunk possibly (even likely), but not asleep.   ;D   

I was around to see my greens retired for the new DEU, but I honestly don't remember any specialty skill badges being worn on the sleeve.  The only one I would've qualified for at the time would've been the "_Successfully negotiated the Bacardi distillery_" badge (with several clasps).

I'm glad I haven't gone completely crazy in that the badge didn't look right under the current regulations.  Thanks!


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## Monsoon (28 Sep 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> <sigh>
> 
> The Flight Surgeon badge is the one above her undress ribbons.  I can't tell which badge the one on the sleeve is; it's irrelevant.  My point is that I've never seen any specialty skill badge in that location on the sleeve, nor can I find anything in the dress regs which allows you to wear a second specialty skill badge on the sleeve.


Ah - that one's the Diving Medical Badge: http://www.joedrouin.com/itemimgaff.php?nbItemID=728

Don't know where the regulation is, but I've certainly seen specialist badges on the sleeve before - for instance, EOD Disposal badge on the sleeve displaced by the Clearance Diver badge above the ribbons.


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## Pusser (28 Sep 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Ah - that one's the Diving Medical Badge: http://www.joedrouin.com/itemimgaff.php?nbItemID=728
> 
> Don't know where the regulation is, but I've certainly seen specialist badges on the sleeve before - for instance, EOD Disposal badge on the sleeve displaced by the Clearance Diver badge above the ribbons.



Having badges in both places was never correct (not to say it didn't happen though).  On the service dress tunic, they started on the sleeve when DEU was first introduced and then moved to the breast a few years afterwards.  As I recall, when we wore them on the sleeve, only one could be worn.  Currently, when a member is entitled to two, one is worn above the ribbons/medals and the second is worn below (or centered on the pocket of the short-sleeved shirt).  Specialist skill and flying badges have always been worn on the sleeve of blue mess jackets (and on the lapel of white ones).


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## Rheostatic (3 Nov 2011)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Ah - that one's the Diving Medical Badge: http://www.joedrouin.com/itemimgaff.php?nbItemID=728


 This was added to the latest edition of the dress regs.


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