# GG Payette resigns 21 Jan 2021



## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2021)

I don't recall if this had it's own thread.

Many politicians of all parties are stepping down for their "accidental" travel after preaching people should stay at home.
What will the zero tollerance LPC do about this I wonder? Perhaps chalk it up to people experiencing things differently and moving on?

Independent firm completes review into claims of 'toxic' environment at Rideau Hall​_An independent consulting firm has completed its review into reports of a toxic environment and workplace harassment at Rideau Hall — and sources briefed on the report say *its contents are scathing.*

Sources said the negative findings in the report could make it difficult for Julie Payette to remain in her role as Governor General. The Globe and Mail also reports that the review has been completed and is *damning in its conclusions.*_

Thanks for the reminder
Link to the article, can't edit my post for some reason. 



			Independent firm completes review into claims of 'toxic' environment at Rideau Hall


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## Kat Stevens (21 Jan 2021)

The response will be along the lines of "oh, well", or perhaps a blistering "that's nice".


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## PuckChaser (21 Jan 2021)

It'll be a learning moment for all of us.

Jarn: Can you add the link to the article into your post? We owe it to the author to link back to their original work.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

I wonder what the process to get a GG to step down would be.  I would imagine not easy if the current GG refuses to budge.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Looks like we don’t have to find out.  Julie payette has resigned.



			https://postmedia.us.janrainsso.com/static/server.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Ftorontosun.com%2Fopinion%2Fcolumnists%2Flilley-governor-general-julie-payette-resigning-over-damning-workplace-report


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## Altair (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> Looks like we don’t have to find out.  Julie payette has resigned.
> 
> 
> 
> https://postmedia.us.janrainsso.com/static/server.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Ftorontosun.com%2Fopinion%2Fcolumnists%2Flilley-governor-general-julie-payette-resigning-over-damning-workplace-report


Wow. 

Crazy.


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## NavyShooter (21 Jan 2021)

Maybe this is where JV will be heading instead of NATO?


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> Looks like we don’t have to find out.  Julie payette has resigned.
> 
> 
> 
> https://postmedia.us.janrainsso.com/static/server.html?origin=https%3A%2F%2Ftorontosun.com%2Fopinion%2Fcolumnists%2Flilley-governor-general-julie-payette-resigning-over-damning-workplace-report



I guess I got the moving on part right.

If a harassment investigation of one person in the CAF by an outsourced firm can cost $50,000 or $100,000 I wonder what this investigation cost?

Some measure of justice for the victims. Can't help but think the former GG could have saved taxpayers a lot of money (not to mention careers) by just not having a toxic workplace in the first place.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

I wonder if there was already a short list made up in preparation for this.  I know a lot of people who have said that they would like to see Uncle Rick in the role, but I think that he is a biy busy at the moment.


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## Kat Stevens (21 Jan 2021)

Say hello to Canada's newest ambassador to insert cushy diplomatic post here.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> Maybe this is where JV will be heading instead of NATO?


I think that regularly putting a former General or Flag Officer in the position every time would probably be a good idea, because they would be use to working with the Government, having a nonpartisan approach (even if they are not nonpartisan), and they wouldn't wear their uniforms and medals wrong...at the very least they wouldn't wear them on a snow suit or replace them with NASA medals.


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## MilEME09 (21 Jan 2021)

Well you need someone to restore confidence in the institution, how about Roméo Dallaire?


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Well you need someone to restore confidence in the institution, how about Roméo Dallaire?


I think that it has to be an Anglophone this time.


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think that it has to be an Anglophone this time.


I'm starting the bidding: Jean Chretien


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## PuckChaser (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> I'm starting the bidding: Jean Chretien


I don't think he's intelligible in any official language, much like current government policies. He's perfect.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> I'm starting the bidding: Jean Chretien


I suppose there are a few other things that we could see him put on backwards.  Especially as Colonel-in-Chief of the GGFG.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

It will be an aboriginal person.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Or Chris Hadfield.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> Or Chris Hadfield.


As long as he doesn't put an astronaut helmet on his coat of arms like the last astronaut.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> As long as he doesn't put an astronaut helmet on his coat of arms like the last astronaut.


Meh, dragons and griffins are pretty much the same thing in my mind.


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> It will be an aboriginal person.


Highly unlikely. PMO will put a known "known" in the slot, to both stave off any follow on criticism, and to ensure no possibility of erratic behaviour going forward. This is *not *what they wanted right now.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Highly unlikely. PMO will put a known "known" in the slot, to both stave off any follow on criticism, and to ensure no erratic behaviour going forward. This is *not what they wanted right now.*


Wayne Gretzky.


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## dangerboy (21 Jan 2021)

Has Canada ever had a Governor-General resign before? I think she is the first.


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> Wayne Gretzky.


Zut alor/alas, no French.


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## PuckChaser (21 Jan 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Has Canada ever had a Governor-General resign before? I think she is the first.


Just watching some political hits on CTV. This is basically unprecedented. There's been GGs step down due to health or gaining other positions but not because of misconduct. She's saved the PM a pretty embarrassing phone call to ask HM to revoke her commission by stepping down and a significant constitutional challenge. Payette has done some huge damage to the credibility of the office and the Monarchy in Canada. Botched a largely ceremonial role...


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## dapaterson (21 Jan 2021)

Given the reality of a minority government nearing the usual point where they dissolve and have another running of the reptiles, there's likely some non-ceremonial work upcoming.  Hopefully whoever is appointed enjoys support from the opposition as well to avoid even the perception of bias.


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Given the reality of a minority government nearing the usual point where they dissolve and have another running of the reptiles, there's likely some non-ceremonial work upcoming.  Hopefully whoever is appointed enjoys support from the opposition as well to avoid even the perception of bias.


I feel that JT probably wants to have one soon to capitalize on what happened in the states an recent events in the CPC.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Highly unlikely. PMO will put a known "known" in the slot, to both stave off any follow on criticism, and to ensure no possibility of erratic behaviour going forward. This is *not *what they wanted right now.


Plenty of known quantities in that group.  Plus he took a lot of flack for missing that opportunity last time.


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> Plenty of *known quantities in that group*.  Plus he took a lot of flack for missing that opportunity last time.


Yeah, but Jody Wilson-Raybould.

Trudeau goes on the attack after former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould’s shock resignation | National Post


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Yeah, but Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> Trudeau goes on the attack after former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould’s shock resignation | National Post


What about her?


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## dapaterson (21 Jan 2021)

An... interesting... resignation letter.  "It's all someone else's fault, but the timing to leave is good for me, so, so long."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-full-statement-governor-general-resignation-rideau-hall-1.5882916


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Sure.


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## Altair (21 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Just watching some political hits on CTV. This is basically unprecedented. There's been GGs step down due to health or gaining other positions but not because of misconduct. She's saved the PM a pretty embarrassing phone call to ask HM to revoke her commission by stepping down and a significant constitutional challenge. Payette has done some huge damage to the credibility of the office and the Monarchy in Canada. Botched a largely ceremonial role...


Just so long as he/they do it quickly before the chief justice needs to sign off on legislation that he may then need to make a ruling on at a later date.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> Meh, dragons and griffins are pretty much the same thing in my mind.


Except one is a draconid and the other is a hybrid 🤓


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## brihard (21 Jan 2021)

I’m sure Canada has many highly accomplished indigenous leaders, some of whom could fill the role excellently. I would be surprised if the next GG wasn’t indigenous.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> I’m sure Canada has many highly accomplished indigenous leaders, some of whom could fill the role excellently. I would be surprised if the next GG wasn’t indigenous.


I don't think they would like 1 million fellow indigenous Canadians banging on their door demanding to know when they're going to fix the treaty rights issues.


dapaterson said:


> An... interesting... resignation letter.  "It's all someone else's fault, but the timing to leave is good for me, so, so long."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-full-statement-governor-general-resignation-rideau-hall-1.5882916


Oh, damn. That's a "zero fucks given" resignation letter if I've ever seen one.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Sure.


You lost me.  Are you saying she is being considered for GG?  What are you getting at?


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

Remius said:


> You lost me.  Are you saying she is being considered for GG?  What are you getting at?


No, I was actually being sarcastic about the post above mine, re the resignation letter.


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## lenaitch (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Yeah, but Jody Wilson-Raybould.
> 
> Trudeau goes on the attack after former justice minister Jody Wilson-Raybould’s shock resignation | National Post


Too much backstory with the current PMO, also, probably seen as too activist.  I'm not sure if she's bilingual.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> I’m sure Canada has many highly accomplished indigenous leaders, some of whom could fill the role excellently. I would be surprised if the next GG wasn’t indigenous.


Say it with me folks:

"Jody, Jody, Jody!"


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## PuckChaser (21 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> Just so long as he/they do it quickly before the chief justice needs to sign off on legislation that he may then need to make a ruling on at a later date.


According to CTV, Buckingham Palace is aware however HM is at Windsor Castle already as when the news broke it was close to 2200 GMT. Likely an awkward briefing HM will receive in the morning...


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> According to CTV, Buckingham Palace is aware however HM is at Windsor Castle already as when the news broke it was close to 2200 GMT. *Likely an awkward briefing HM will receive in the morning...*


Likely one of several awkward briefings . Maybe 2021 is unfolding as another "annus horribilis.'


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## Kilted (21 Jan 2021)

She must have spoken to her on the phone before making this public, I can't see even her blindsiding the Queen like this.


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## FJAG (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Likely one of several awkward briefings . Maybe 2021 is unfolding as another "annus horribilis.'


I don't know. This piece of news probably falls under the "annus mirabilis" category.

🍻


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## Weinie (21 Jan 2021)

FJAG said:


> I don't know. This piece of news probably falls under the "*annus mirabilis*" category.
> 
> 🍻


Perhaps for some


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## Furniture (21 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Highly unlikely. PMO will put a known "known" in the slot, to both stave off any follow on criticism, and to ensure no possibility of erratic behaviour going forward. This is *not *what they wanted right now.


I the PM is smart he will go the "Harper" route, and pick a relatively unknown, quiet, competent person. Someone that attracts no attention and who does nothing but serve honourably. 

Given the PMs penchant for dramatic gestures and virtue signaling, I imagine we will end up with someone famous and entirely unsuited to the role.


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## Kat Stevens (22 Jan 2021)

WeatherdoG said:


> I the PM is smart he will go the "Harper" route, and pick a relatively unknown, quiet, competent person. Someone that attracts no attention and who does nothing but serve honourably.
> 
> Given the PMs penchant for dramatic gestures and virtue signaling, I imagine we will end up with someone famous and entirely unsuited to the role.


My money is on Russell Peters or Ashley McIsaac.


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## Altair (22 Jan 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> My money is on Russell Peters or Ashley McIsaac.


I'm going to go with Chris Hadfield or Kim campbell


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Jan 2021)

Perhaps a retrospective look at the general impression when she was selected as the GG is in order.









						New GG
					

Multiple sources are reporting that astronaut Julie Payette will be named Canada's Governor General tomorrow.




					army.ca


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## GAP (22 Jan 2021)

Garry Doer would be a good choice I


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## Kilted (22 Jan 2021)

Don Cherry.


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## Eaglelord17 (22 Jan 2021)

Why not a real wild card and have the Queen choose who she would like without any recommendation? I am sure she would find a more than suitable candidate.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jan 2021)

I think I should put my name forward. PPCLI Guy will be my COS. or G2G - either one will be fine..


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## Good2Golf (22 Jan 2021)

OldSolduer, it would be an honour. Of course, one of the first orders of business would be to remove all the red crayons from Rideau Hall. 😉


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## MilEME09 (22 Jan 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I think I should put my name forward. PPCLI Guy will be my COS. or G2G - either one will be fine..


If we are picking people from here, I nominate FJAG


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## Gunnar (22 Jan 2021)

I’m available right now.  Just sayin’.


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## stoker dave (22 Jan 2021)

Rick Mercer?


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## Gunnar (22 Jan 2021)

Actually, yeah.  Another media hack, recognizeably Canadian, has some level of respect for the Forces and Canadians in general...good idea.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2021)

A touch on the older end of the spectrum, but how about a solid Montreal kid?


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## mariomike (22 Jan 2021)

What are the qualifications for the job?


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## Good2Golf (22 Jan 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> A touch on the older end of the spectrum, but how about a solid Montreal kid?


I. Like. Your. Suggestion.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> I. Like. Your. Suggestion.


I.  See.  What.  You.  Did.  There.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Jan 2021)

For the pop culture crowd - Prince Harry (if it was a year ago)

For the serious recommendation - Beverley McLachlin, the former Chief Justice


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## PuckChaser (22 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> What are the qualifications for the job?


Don't create a toxic work environment or embarrass the government that vouched for you to the Queen are probably the only essential quals now...


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Jan 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> My money is on Russell Peters or Ashley McIsaac.


😄


"What skills do you bring to the Royal Court Mr McIsaac?"

.... "Being batshit drunk and crazy, able to urinate in to my own mouth and play the fiddle at the same time not enough for you?"


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## daftandbarmy (22 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Don't create a toxic work environment or embarrass the government that vouched for you to the Queen are probably the only essential quals now...



Are we talking about the PM, or the GG, now?

I can't tell anymore


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## Kat Stevens (22 Jan 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 😄
> 
> 
> "What skills do you bring to the Royal Court Mr McIsaac?"
> ...


Someone gets it! For those who thought I was serious....really??


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## dapaterson (22 Jan 2021)

It's 99.99% a pre-scheduled tweet, but the Canadian Space Agency appears to be casting a bit of shade this morning.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352617314475257861


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Jan 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> For the pop culture crowd - Prince Harry (if it was a year ago)
> 
> For the serious recommendation - Beverley McLachlin, the former Chief Justice


Frankly I think he would do an excellent job, his wife not so much. Of course the irony of it would be interesting.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2021)

This, from the Mounties' union .....


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## PuckChaser (22 Jan 2021)

Some pretty damning information from Robert Fife. Payette is a family friend of Sophie Trudeau and was chosen directly by the PM skipping the independent selection committee established in 2010 that had success by recommending David Johnston (bipartisan support for his tenure). Payette also refused to live in Rideau Hall, took off from her RCMP detail to go for runs and treated some of those detail members very poorly. Fife also alleges that anyone who looked beyond Payette's resume would have known her recent history of creating toxic work environments.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jan 2021)

On the bright side she can travel to the Bahamas without people demanding her resignation.


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## NavyShooter (22 Jan 2021)

Sooo....she tried to pull a Trump?


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## Ostrozac (22 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think that regularly putting a former General or Flag Officer in the position every time would probably be a good idea, because they would be use to working with the Government, having a nonpartisan approach (even if they are not nonpartisan), and they wouldn't wear their uniforms and medals wrong...at the very least they wouldn't wear them on a snow suit or replace them with NASA medals.


Actually, one other thing that a General/Flag Officer brings to the table is bilingualism. By definition every retired General is passably bilingual, or they’d be a retired Colonel or a retired Major. Come to think of it, that’s also something that they share with the senior ranks of the civil service, as is the nonpartisanship. Maybe a former Deputy Minister or Ambassador? It’s been done before — Vanier and Leger come to mind.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Maybe a former . . .  Ambassador?



Former ambassador . . . mmm . . . Kevin Vickers?


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## Ostrozac (22 Jan 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Former ambassador . . . mmm . . . Kevin Vickers?


Actually, he sounds like an excellent choice; bilingual, knows Ottawa, and is recently unemployed due to his resignation from provincial politics.


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## PMedMoe (22 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Actually, he sounds like an excellent choice; bilingual, knows Ottawa, and is recently unemployed due to his resignation from provincial politics.


I agree.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Actually, he sounds like an excellent choice; bilingual, knows Ottawa, and is recently unemployed due to his resignation from provincial politics.


Vickers shot someone with a handgun. Trudeau would never go for that association.


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## Ostrozac (22 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Vickers shot someone with a handgun. Trudeau would never go for that association.


He almost certainly wouldn’t be the first Canadian Governor-General to have shot someone with a handgun.  Between Minto, Byng, Alexander, Athlone and Vanier, there’s been some veterans of serious operational service that have gone through that office.


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## Haggis (22 Jan 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> A touch on the older end of the spectrum, but how about a solid Montreal kid?


The Speech From the Throne would take days to deliver.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Vickers shot someone with a handgun. Trudeau would never go for that association.



 Maybe 'close combat skills' is an unspoken requirement of the job?  



In Maryland, Payette was driving and struck and killed a pedestrian who had stepped off a curb in July 2011. The case was closed without charges in April 2012 as she was found not at fault. Payette was charged with second degree assault in Maryland, on November 24, 2011. At least one anonymously quoted source has alleged that the victim of the assault was her then-husband, Billie Flynn. Though the charges were later dropped, the couple split several weeks later and subsequently divorced.









						Julie Payette - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## dapaterson (22 Jan 2021)

Really, there's only one choice...


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## Kilted (23 Jan 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Maybe 'close combat skills' is an unspoken requirement of the job?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess that the writing was on the wall from the beginning.


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## PuckChaser (23 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> I guess that the writing was on the wall from the beginning.


Actual vetting instead of nepotism would have disqualified her right away. As Blackadder pointed out, a lot of us only knew her resume on the wavetops and seemed like a great pick. Those who actually have worked with her would have been spoken to during the independent committee and her file wouldn't have made it to the PM's desk.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Those who actually have worked with her would have been spoken to during the independent committee and her file wouldn't have made it to the PM's desk.



That’s not how this round worked, PC. She was hand picked by the PM.....right after the PM’s wife ‘suggested’ it would signal the right virtue.

We should stop pretending that there was even a pretense of a principled identification of a worthy and appropriately dedicated individual to represent the Queen in Canada.

It was most likely never in the PM’s mind that an independent council should be raised to provide recommendations to the PM to them seek ‘approval’ by the Queen.  There was enough veneer on the surface for the nepotistic/marital decision to fill the deep cracks for a few years anyway...

/cynical


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## PuckChaser (23 Jan 2021)

I know, G2G. This is something the PM should wear, as all roads point to his failure even if people at Rideau Hall "experienced differently" GG Payette's inappropriate behaviour. The cynic in me says this is a perfect distraction from the absolute failure in COVID-19 vaccine procurement and will just slide off the PM's shoulders like every single other conflict of interest/abuse of authority/strategic policy failure.

I have the faintest hope that our national media will finally start holding the government to account properly, and these issues won't disappear. But I buy a lotto ticket every week because this week is my week to win....


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jan 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Actual vetting instead of nepotism would have disqualified her right away. As Blackadder pointed out, a lot of us only knew her resume on the wavetops and seemed like a great pick. Those who actually have worked with her would have been spoken to during the independent committee and her file wouldn't have made it to the PM's desk.


You mean, like, reading the Wikipedia entry?


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## Scott (23 Jan 2021)

LOL. The person that signs these law thingys into force about workplace harassment/violence is then the subject of a scathing report that herself may have done some violence/harassing. Shouldn't that position be the single most accountable to the laws they endorse?


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## Remius (23 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> What are the qualifications for the job?


Yes.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2021)

Perhaps its time to do away with the GG and all its trappings and ceremony ?  

What is the benefit to the country ?  Other than some emotional and nostalgic attachment to a dated European Monarchy that is irrelevant to modern Canada society.


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2021)

Kilted said:


> I guess that the writing was on the wall from the beginning.


... if someone were only willing to read it ...


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## Weinie (23 Jan 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> ... if someone were only willing to read it ...


Maybe those who did read it, read it "differently." ( I am typing this moistly)


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps its time to do away with the GG and all its trappings and ceremony ?
> 
> What is the benefit to the country ?  Other than some emotional and nostalgic attachment to a dated European Monarchy that is irrelevant to modern Canada society.


I like how people throw that COA out without any consideration of the Constitutional implications. Getting rid of the GG would mean getting the agreement of 7 provinces with over 50% of the population. And it would mean any future PM would be completely unchecked In their powers.


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## Eaglelord17 (23 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps its time to do away with the GG and all its trappings and ceremony ?
> 
> What is the benefit to the country ?  Other than some emotional and nostalgic attachment to a dated European Monarchy that is irrelevant to modern Canada society.


Well for starters you would have to completely re-write the whole constitution of the country which based off how well that has gone the couple times they tried to change it since Trudeau senior forced the current one down our throats I don't see that happening any time soon. They set a exceptionally high bar to to meet (which they didn't meet in the first place) and with the way our democracy is structured I don't see it happening. Not to mention any attempt to modify the constitution will result in everyone wanting to throw their two cents in, create their own benefits and entrench them. Native rights either removing them or entrenching them, gay rights, property rights, religious rights or lack there of, modifications to what we consider rights, rewording of legislation such as modifying the Charter to make it easier to override or more difficult, changing the electoral system, etc. basically you name a cause they will want a piece. It is literally creating a new form of government for our country. 

Australia which has a much more Republic minded country still hasn't done it due to the difficulties involved in the process and societally they are much closer to it than us. 

Much easier to putt along with the status quo which has worked just fine until now thanks to one bad apple. The apple is gone, now made a decision based on merit not nepotism. 

The bigger issue I see is that she shall receive 149k a year for the rest of her life due to her service which to me is absolutely insane. Unfortunately politicians get to decide their own pay and benefits and have never ever voted against it.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Jan 2021)

Incorrect, SKT. And it's even worse than you think.

The constitutional implications of touching the GG's position is, in effect, touching the powers and role of the Crown. As such, it requires unanimity, that is the assent of all ten provinces and the Federal parliament.

This unanimity was something the Trudeau Sr. had to agree to in order to get his "compromise" when  he repatriated the Constitution. BTW, it was required of him by nine provinces out of ten - can you guess which province didn't care about embedding the Crown into our constitution so strongly?


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## YZT580 (23 Jan 2021)

You really want to go republican after all the crap we have witnessed south of the border?  Even ceremonial checks and balances provide some measure of protection.  Being a 'prime' minister is not the same as being president and I for one am grateful for the difference


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## FSTO (23 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> You really want to go republican after all the crap we have witnessed south of the border?  Even ceremonial checks and balances provide some measure of protection.  Being a 'prime' minister is not the same as being president and I for one am grateful for the difference


I would have resigned my commission before pledging allegiance to any head of government.


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## Weinie (23 Jan 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I like how people throw that COA out without any consideration of the Constitutional implications. Getting rid of the GG would mean getting the agreement of 7 provinces with over 50% of the population. *And it would mean any future PM would be completely unchecked In their powers.*


A cynic, (not me, of course) might say, "And the difference from status quo is what ?"

Past GG's have acceded to the "requests' of serving PM's. We have to go back almost a century to find a GG who has used their power to "benefit" the democratic process in Canada. 

The delicate role of the Governor General | CBC News

I am still on the fence on this one, trying to rationalize/support the now abrogated role of the Queen's representative in Canada. While we still have the office and it's powers enshrined constitutionally, I am not certain that Canadians or the government are particularly aware, or care, what checks and balances that the office brings. But without it, as you say, "Here be Monsters."


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## Humphrey Bogart (23 Jan 2021)

Governor General Julie Payette

Her appointment had more Red Flags than a CCCP Parade!


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## YZT580 (23 Jan 2021)

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that increasing the accountability role would be a good thing along with establishing a truly non-partisan selection committee.


----------



## Ostrozac (23 Jan 2021)

FSTO said:


> I would have resigned my commission before pledging allegiance to any head of government.


Does anybody really do that, though? Pledge allegiance to a head of government? The oath of allegiance in the US military is to their Constitution, as is the oath of enlistment in India and Ireland. The enlistment oath in Russia, France and Germany is to the nation itself. Being a Republic doesn’t necessarily mean an oath to a politician.


----------



## Ostrozac (23 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Anecdotal evidence would suggest that increasing the accountability role would be a good thing along with establishing a truly non-partisan selection committee.


Someone once suggested, and I can’t remember who, that the GG should be selected by secret ballot of the Companions of the Order of Canada, in a similar manner as a papal conclave. This does seem like an elegant solution, but vetting and selection for the Order of Canada has its own issues, and it probably would also risk politicizing the Order.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> She was hand picked by the PM.....right after the PM’s wife ‘suggested’ it would signal the right virtue.


_What in the Liberal Party of Canada is going on here  _



Some people are saying the PM has to wear this. He could wear a suit made out of shit and people would convince themselves he smells great. The guy sexually assaulted a reporter and acted like a monkey while wearing black face. Billion dollar sole-sourced contract to the shady as hell corporation that was paying his direct family members to give speeches. Sent his lackeys to bully the attorney general to pressure her to cut a deal with Quebec company SNC Lavalin. 

He's untouchable- he's already moved on.


----------



## FSTO (23 Jan 2021)

Ostrozac said:


> Does anybody really do that, though? Pledge allegiance to a head of government? The oath of allegiance in the US military is to their Constitution, as is the oath of enlistment in Indian and Ireland. The enlistment oath in Russia, France and Germany is to the nation itself. Being a Republic doesn’t necessarily mean an oath to a politician.


It's just my feeling about politicians. I could see Canada doing this (pledge allegiance to the government) and there is no way I could do that. I would hope that if we went the republican route that we'd have a decent symbol above and beyond the terrible people that populate the PMO.


----------



## YZT580 (23 Jan 2021)

FSTO said:


> It's just my feeling about politicians. I could see Canada doing this (pledge allegiance to the government) and there is no way I could do that. I would hope that if we went the republican route that we'd have a decent symbol above and beyond the terrible people that populate the PMO.


The difficulty is all contained in the word hope.  The concept  of monarchy bridges that word.  The U.S. tried to do it by staggering elections so that you could not rely on a single election event to achieve dominance.  A monarchy by its very nature transcends cyclical partisanship.  Having the order of Canada providing the nominee for Queen's rep.  might just work.  The companions are not reliant upon any single party single event


----------



## mariomike (23 Jan 2021)

For reference to the discussion, Angus - Reid back in 2017,

Angus-Reid

*August 25, 2017 

QUOTE*










						Most Canadians approve of nomination of Julie Payette to be Governor General - Angus Reid Institute
					

Payette’s nomination is most popular in her native Quebec, and among past Liberal Party voters August 25, 2017 – Canada’s next Governor General boasts an impressive background: An astronaut, she




					angusreid.org
				



Canadians are almost four times as likely to strongly approve of Payette’s nomination (26% do) as they are to strongly disapprove of it (7%)

Disapproval of Trudeau’s choice of Payette for the Governor General position, meanwhile, is highest in Alberta (20%) and among past Conservative Party voters (25%)

END QUOTE


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Jan 2021)

I think that poll was wrong, MM.

Disapproval of Trudeau's choice was highest in people, like me and my wife, who actually knew how she really was. 

I remember flagging her flaws in these very forums a while back, but somehow, after the update, all my posts from more than a year ago have disappeared, so I can't reference it.


----------



## mariomike (23 Jan 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> I remember flagging her flaws in these very forums a while back, but somehow, after the update, all my posts from more than a year ago have disappeared, so I can't reference it.


Yes, I do recall your posts on the subject, OGBD. I tried to reference them also, but can't.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> The guy sexually assaulted a reporter and acted like a monkey while wearing black face.


Neither of which happened while he was PM.  I do wish people would get over the past.   🙄


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I like how people throw that COA out without any consideration of the Constitutional implications. Getting rid of the GG would mean getting the agreement of 7 provinces with over 50% of the population. And it would mean any future PM would be completely unchecked In their powers.


What a cursory Google search and use of Wiki (All caveats agreed) provided Canadians interest and support for the Monarchy is declining by the day it seems with current support being estimated at 45%-55%.  

When was the last time a GG went against with wishes and whims of sitting government ?


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Neither of which happened while he was PM.  I do wish people would get over the past.   🙄



But in todays society ones past, no matter far back, is as relevant as the present time.  Isn't it wonderful!


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Neither of which happened while he was PM.  I do wish people would get over the past.   🙄


He is quite ready to use that standard against anyone else


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Neither of which happened while he was PM.  I do wish people would get over the past.   🙄


Yeah, the nerve of judging past actions through today’s lens. Who does that?


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yeah, the nerve of judging past actions through today’s lens. Who does that?


Unfortunately, everyone does.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> I do wish people would get over the past.   🙄


That sounds like Trudeau's approach to hiring Payette.


----------



## Weinie (23 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> What a cursory Google search and use of Wiki (All caveats agreed) provided Canadians interest and support for the Monarchy is declining by the day it seems with current support being estimated at 45%-55%.
> 
> *When was the last time a GG went against with wishes and whims of sitting government ?*


From a previous post:

The delicate role of the Governor General | CBC News


----------



## dapaterson (23 Jan 2021)

And the Beaverton nails it:



> “Everyone has a right to a healthy and safe work environment, even these fucking weaklings who worked for me at Rideau Hall,” Payette wrote. “Tensions often arise when strong people like myself are forced to work with pussies. For that, I am so sorry.”











						Julie Payette: I’m so sorry that my staffers are all a bunch of pussies
					

“Everyone has a right to a healthy and safe work environment, even these fucking weaklings who worked for me at Rideau Hall,” Payette wrote. “Tensions often arise when strong people like myself are forced to work with pussies. For that, I am so sorry.”




					www.thebeaverton.com


----------



## mariomike (23 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> The guy sexually assaulted a reporter and acted like a monkey while wearing black face.


No matter how obsessed some to be with favorite political chew toys, I just know what I read in the papers,

The biggest divide in Canadian politics? Men vs. Women.​
Philippe J. Fournier: If only men voted, the Liberal and Conservatives would be in a statistical tie. Only women: the Liberals win a crushing 226 seats.








						The biggest divide in Canadian politics? Men vs. Women. - Macleans.ca
					

Philippe J. Fournier: If only men voted, the Liberal and Conservatives would be in a statistical tie. Only women: the Liberals win a crushing 226 seats.




					www.macleans.ca
				





On the subject of visible minorities,

"If your riding has a majority of _*visible minorities*_, there's an 85-per-cent chance it elected a _*Liberal*_."








						Ten Demographic Clues to How Your Riding Might Vote Monday | The Tyee
					

Many visible minorities? Liberal. Wide open empty spaces? Conservative.




					thetyee.ca
				




Maybe this Governor General thing will bring hope to some for the next election. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> No matter how many times you keep re-posting that, Jarnhamar I just know what I read in the papers,


Right.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> That sounds like Trudeau's approach to hiring Payette.


To be fair, I was never in favour of her appointment, nor with the way it was done.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Unfortunately, everyone does.


Guess you've never had a background check done?    Wonder why they do that??


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Anecdotal evidence would suggest that increasing the accountability role would be a good thing along with establishing a truly non-partisan selection committee.


It’s a job, just like any other job.

They should post the employment opportunity in some national newspapers and do the selection process that everyone else goes through to pick high profile executives.


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Guess you've never had a background check done?    Wonder why they do that??


That's different and you know it.  My background check didn't find out I dressed as a hobo for Halloween once.  Nor did they care.  🙄


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Jan 2021)

And you're missing the point,...the past matters and you know it.   If the subject here was about the past of your favourite whipping boy ex-leader you be all over it......


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Jan 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And you're missing the point,...the past matters and you know it.   If the subject here was about the past of your favourite whipping boy ex-leader you be all over it......


Whatever...  

Sorry for the derail.  Back to the original topic of the thread.


----------



## ModlrMike (23 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Anecdotal evidence would suggest that increasing the accountability role would be a good thing along with establishing a truly non-partisan selection committee.


Didn't a previous government do that in 2010?


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Anecdotal evidence would suggest that increasing the accountability role would be a good thing along with establishing a truly non-partisan selection committee.


There already is a non-partisan selection committee. It chose David Johnston who was fantastic. Instead, Trudeau disbanded that arms-length Viceregal appointment recommendation committee, and personally chose GG Payette. He even did his own vetting. He even had the gaul to say there was no red flags for her:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352707457613615104


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2021)

You can't vett information that's not there.



> Earlier this week, iPolitics published a story revealing that in December 2012 Payette was charged with assault, but those charges were quickly withdrawn and the entire case record has been *“expunged”* — meaning there is no record in the St. Mary’s court system. Even transcripts of a criminal court hearing, if there even was one, have been *destroyed.*




*



*




> *He said that before any appointment to such a high-profile post, the government conducts a thorough background search on the candidate’s past.*











						Future Governor General Julie Payette involved in fatal collision months before assault charge in Maryland
					

Maryland police closed the case in 2012 after concluding that Potts, who had various medical issues and poor eyesight, stepped off the curb to cross the road when she should not have.




					www.thestar.com
				




Caught in another lie?


----------



## lenaitch (23 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> What a cursory Google search and use of Wiki (All caveats agreed) provided Canadians interest and support for the Monarchy is declining by the day it seems with current support being estimated at 45%-55%.
> 
> When was the last time a GG went against with wishes and whims of sitting government ?


Whether or not we become a republic at some point is a discussion the country may have, but a democracy needs a Head of State and a Head of Government,.  How that gets embodied varies by country.  I am disappointed in those, and there are many in the ether, who think it is as simple as telling the GG 'thanks for coming' and whacking a For Sale sign on Rideau Hall.   Few seem to recognize it would take a wholesale restructuring of our Constitution and rules of governing in order to maintain adequate checks and balances on power.  Do-able - many countries have - but it would be far from painless.  If nothing else, like it or not we define ourselves, at least in part, by what we are not - the US.









						List of countries by system of government - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Do-able - many countries have - but it would be far from painless.


Can you imagine the wheeling and dealing and back door shenanigans that would happen with that?


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Whether or not we become a republic at some point is a discussion the country may have, but a democracy needs a Head of State and a Head of Government,.  How that gets embodied varies by country.  I am disappointed in those, and there are many in the ether, who think it is as simple as telling the GG 'thanks for coming' and whacking a For Sale sign on Rideau Hall.   Few seem to recognize it would take a wholesale restructuring of our Constitution and rules of governing in order to maintain adequate checks and balances on power.  Do-able - many countries have - but it would be far from painless.  If nothing else, like it or not we define ourselves, at least in part, by what we are not - the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't live in a fairy tale land where I think we can dismiss the monarchy and that's the long and the short of it. It would raise a whole host of complications that we would have to work through as a country. Imagine the nightmare of dealing with first nations treaties ?

Find me a value to the Monarchy besides "because we've always done it that way" and I might get on board. But right now it just looks like a way to throw more of my money at someone who doesn't need it or deserve it in the first place.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (25 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't live in a fairy tale land where I think we can dismiss the monarchy and that's the long and the short of it. It would raise a whole host of complications that we would have to work through as a country. Imagine the nightmare of dealing with first nations treaties ?
> 
> Find me a value to the Monarchy besides "because we've always done it that way" and I might get on board. But right now it just looks like a way to throw more of my money at someone who doesn't need it or deserve it in the first place.


And what value does any proposed system your entertaining have over the status quo? The person seeking to change the system is the one who needs to justify what they want, not the system as it stands. 

Is there flaws to our current system? Yes. Could it be much worse than what our system currently is? Also yes. I just don't see much inherent value in trying to take Canada down that path, especially when the people who would be doing it seem to believe more in 'collective rights', as opposed to the Classical Liberal 'individual rights' which our country was built on.


----------



## lenaitch (25 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't live in a fairy tale land where I think we can dismiss the monarchy and that's the long and the short of it. It would raise a whole host of complications that we would have to work through as a country. Imagine the nightmare of dealing with first nations treaties ?
> 
> Find me a value to the Monarchy besides "because we've always done it that way" and I might get on board. But right now it just looks like *a way to throw more of my money at someone* who doesn't need it or deserve it in the first place.


Rest assured that any other Head of State position in a republican system would come with similar costs (unless we try embody it in one position aka the US, and even at that . . . ).  Although I don't know the budget of Rideau Hall, we remit not dime one on directly supporting the monarchy.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Jan 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> And what value does any proposed system your entertaining have over the status quo? The person seeking to change the system is the one who needs to justify what they want, not the system as it stands.
> 
> Is there flaws to our current system? Yes. Could it be much worse than what our system currently is? Also yes. I just don't see much inherent value in trying to take Canada down that path, especially when the people who would be doing it seem to believe more in 'collective rights', as opposed to the Classical Liberal 'individual rights' which our country was built on.



Countless countries around the world operate very well without a monarchy. There is no reason we cant be the same. Again just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean its the correct way. This is like walking into a bad turn over in a new section, where the shitty Cpl keeps telling you "but its the way we've always done it".

Right now people are indifferent about the whole thing until they see the $$$ that these silly positions cost. Cut the costs drastically, remove any pensions and after service entitled spending and you might get some buy in.

Right now, if you really think the GG is worth the money we are spending for it and the rest of our connection to the monarchy then we are diametrically opposed and there is no common ground.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Rest assured that any other Head of State position in a republican system would come with similar costs (unless we try embody it in one position aka the US, and even at that . . . ).  Although I don't know the budget of Rideau Hall, we remit not dime one on directly supporting the monarchy.



No doubt.  I would argue all facets of our public representatives need some fiscal belt tightening.  That doesn't excuse the current situation.


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Right now people are indifferent about the whole thing until they see the $$$ that these silly positions cost. Cut the costs drastically, remove any pensions and after service entitled spending and you might get some buy in.


“Buy in” from whom?  Canadian voters in sufficient quantity at the next election to support the next elected government’s eradication of the GG function within the Constitution?

Canadians are overall non-commital  about things at the best of times. If Trudeau essentially have the electorate the middle finger in “Election Reform” from the last few elections, what makes you think that elimination of the GG position is even a starter?

Regards
G2G


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Rest assured that any other Head of State position in a republican system would come with similar costs (unless we try embody it in one position aka the US, and even at that . . . ).  Although I don't know the budget of Rideau Hall, we remit not dime one on directly supporting the monarchy.


Why do we need a Head of State position? Currently the GG and the Monarch play completely ceremonial roles with no actual authority. They don't hold any actual check or balance function. Roll their authority into the institutions of Parliament/ Provicial Assemblies and Bob's your uncle, and there will be no practical difference to how the country runs. The PM is effectively already the head of state anyway, and if you don't like the breadth or depth of their authority, don't hold your breath for the GG to do anything about it. Real checks and balances would need to be done in the various bits of the Constitution and other legislation that lays out the PM's authority, not via some random citizen in a fancy collar.

I don't think it's worth the squeeze to get rid of the Queen and GG, and happy enough with the status quo that I don't think it's worth the upheaval, but I don't think we have to change our entire political system when we can just delete the top position on the chain.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> “Buy in” from whom?  Canadian voters in sufficient quantity at the next election to support the next elected government’s eradication of the GG function within the Constitution?
> 
> Canadians are overall non-communal about things at the best of times. If Trudeau essentially have the electorate the middle finger in “Election Reform” from the last few elections, what makes you think that elimination of the GG position is even a starter?
> 
> ...



Ya that was the reason I voted for him in his first election... Boy was I duped. 

You aren't wrong though... But doesn't negate my inherent right to be opinionated and drastic like a good WO/PO1 lol


----------



## Good2Golf (25 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ya that was the reason I voted for him in his first election... Boy was I duped.
> 
> You aren't wrong though... But doesn't negate my inherent right to be opinionated and drastic like a good WO/PO1 lol


I hear you.  I personally believe that if we retain the position (I think we will, but pragmatically, I’d prefer to see an independence from the Queen directly, but I don’t trust the LPC not to alter the system to their greater preference), the selection of such an individual needs to have a seriously improved process that is non-partisan as best as possible. Payette’s appointment was a horrible, pandering attempt by Trudeau at hollow virtue signalling through yet another arm of government. Id actually like to see The Queen give a Trudeau the gears over the whole fiasco, and is engaged significantly more than pencil-whipping an approval based on yet another likely ‘virtuous’ recommendation from Trudeau.  Maybe it won’t be his wife’s good friend, this time?  We could be so lucky...

Regards
G2G


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Jan 2021)

I liked the previous Viceregal position committee process; they should just rename it and pretend it's something new if they don't want to admit it was a good idea they canceled.


----------



## lenaitch (25 Jan 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Why do we need a Head of State position? Currently the GG and the Monarch play completely ceremonial roles with no actual authority. They don't hold any actual check or balance function. Roll their authority into the institutions of Parliament/ Provicial Assemblies and Bob's your uncle, and there will be no practical difference to how the country runs. The PM is effectively already the head of state anyway, and if you don't like the breadth or depth of their authority, don't hold your breath for the GG to do anything about it. Real checks and balances would need to be done in the various bits of the Constitution and other legislation that lays out the PM's authority, not via some random citizen in a fancy collar.
> 
> I don't think it's worth the squeeze to get rid of the Queen and GG, and happy enough with the status quo that I don't think it's worth the upheaval, but I don't think we have to change our entire political system when we can just delete the top position on the chain.


I'm not enough of a political scientist to cogently argue why we need a Head of State, but it seems every functioning democracy has one; either in one human form or two.  As I mentioned, we certainly could do it, but at great cost and disruption.


----------



## Weinie (25 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> I hear you.  I personally believe that if we retain the position (I think we will, but pragmatically, I’d prefer to see an independence from the Queen directly, but I don’t trust the LPC not to alter the system to their greater preference), the selection of such an individual needs to have a seriously improved process that is non-partisan as best as possible. Payette’s appointment was a horrible, pandering attempt by Trudeau at hollow virtue signalling through yet another arm of government. Id actually like to see The Queen give a Trudeau the gears over the whole fiasco, and is engaged significantly more than pencil-whipping an approval based on yet another likely ‘virtuous’ recommendation from Trudeau.  *Maybe it won’t be his wife’s good friend, this time?*  We could be so lucky...
> 
> Regards
> G2G


Although I don't know *that* Sophie, I do know *a* Sophie. Should I contact the release section?


----------



## Altair (25 Jan 2021)

I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.



Well, there's a few hundred years of tremendous instability, like alot of wars and things, preceding the advent of the Constitutional Monarchy.

And that's just since Cromwell popped up on the radar screen....


----------



## Navy_Pete (25 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.



I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.

Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians). 

Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.


----------



## Altair (25 Jan 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.
> 
> Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians).
> 
> Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.


I don't think Canada would be prepared for the double body blow that would be reopening the constitution and turning into a effective republic at the same time.


----------



## Ostrozac (25 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.


Given there are so few Commonwealth realms, its a small sample size, but instability still does happen in them. The Irish Free State’s Civil War, Pakistan’s first coup, and the whole Grenada situation in the 1970’s-1980’s all come to mind. Would Canada be more unstable as a Republic? Probably not. There are other factors at play.

Personally, I see the real value in monarchy as it being something that sets us apart from the the United States, given that for most of our history Canadians haven’t been defined as what we are, but what we aren’t... the superpower to our south.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Jan 2021)

I sense a pattern here....

Trudeau government hires former Nanaimo city manager​
Nanaimo's former chief administrative officer has been hired by the Trudeau government.

*The City of Nanaimo’s former chief administrative officer who was o**nce arrested for allegedly making threats *has taken a senior leadership role with the federal government.

Tracy Samra — who now goes by the name Tracy Fleck — has been hired as senior executive director of Indigenous Partnership Office West with the Department of Natural Resources, where she will be overseeing Indigenous relations for the Trans Mountain pipeline expansion project.
The position comes with an annual salary ranging from $145,000 to $165,000 annually.









						Trudeau government hires former Nanaimo city manager
					

Nanaimo's former chief administrative officer has taken a senior leadership role with the Trudeau government.




					www.cheknews.ca


----------



## Furniture (25 Jan 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> I agree, and think the current form where the monarchy has effectively no actual authority is the way to go.
> 
> Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead. TBH probably makes the PM's job a lot easier as they can outsource a lot of dog and pony shows, and I'd personnally rather have the GG out gladhanding and the PM getting things done (recognizing the PMs do a lot of dog and pony/baby kissing things anyway as politicians).
> 
> Don't see any real chance of that changing now anyway, but if we suddenly had a King Charles might be a different story. Lots of people still viscerally hate him for the way Princess Di situation rolled out.



The problem I see with it is rather simple; 

Under the current system there is someone there holding the government accountable. Despite the fact a GG has yet to refuse to give Royal Ascent to an act of parliament, they have the power to do so. Just having someone there who can prevent people from running amok is often times enough to prevent people from running amok, look at commissionaires as a perfect example. 

For some of us, the idea that there is a "government" that is above politics is reassuring. If the existence of western democracy was entirely on the shoulders of people like the PM, I'd be among the first clamoring for a new Roman empire.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (26 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Countless countries around the world operate very well without a monarchy. There is no reason we cant be the same. Again just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean its the correct way. This is like walking into a bad turn over in a new section, where the shitty Cpl keeps telling you "but its the way we've always done it".
> 
> Right now people are indifferent about the whole thing until they see the $$$ that these silly positions cost. Cut the costs drastically, remove any pensions and after service entitled spending and you might get some buy in.
> 
> Right now, if you really think the GG is worth the money we are spending for it and the rest of our connection to the monarchy then we are diametrically opposed and there is no common ground.


Again what system do you propose is better and why? Just saying other countries don't have one doesn't change the fact we do. Personally I am a large fan of the Swiss form of democracy, though I question if the average Canadian voter is responsible enough to be able to have that form of government. 

Sometimes it is better to stick with the status quo because if you hate how much things cost at the moment, just imagine how much things would cost to open up the Constitution. They tried on two separate occasions after Trudeau Sr. brought it back to Canada. Both times after tons of months of effort, tons of wasted time and energy, ended up going no where and that was for smaller changes which require less buy in than getting rid of the Monarchy. Again there is no guarantee the result afterwards would be any better. 

Much like electoral reform, 60% of the population wants it to change, but out of that 60%, 20% want percentage based voting, 20% want preferred ballot, 20% want... The end result being that the 40% that want the status quo keep it because no one else can get their act together enough to get enough support for the change. It isn't just a 'this or that' it is a 'this or any number of different ways to do it'. I honestly don't see this form of government changing in Canada without a serious push of some sort (basically other than a war/revolution I doubt it will happen in my lifetime). 


Halifax Tar said:


> No doubt.  I would argue all facets of our public representatives need some fiscal belt tightening.  That doesn't excuse the current situation.


1000% pretty much all public service needs a bit of a belt tightening in my opinion. 


Halifax Tar said:


> Ya that was the reason I voted for him in his first election... Boy was I duped.
> 
> You aren't wrong though... But doesn't negate my inherent right to be opinionated and drastic like a good WO/PO1 lol


A good WO/PO1 would be supportive of the Monarchy, it's even a chargeable offence in the QR&Os not to be, though I doubt it has been used in a long time.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Jan 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Again what system do you propose is better and why? Just saying other countries don't have one doesn't change the fact we do. Personally I am a large fan of the Swiss form of democracy, though I question if the average Canadian voter is responsible enough to be able to have that form of government.
> 
> - Why do I have to provide a alternative because I don't like something ?  I don't like milk but no one demands that I find an alternative.  I also don't pretend to be politically savvy enough to propose an alternative.  I would rather some experts do that and let me make my choice.
> 
> ...


----------



## Altair (26 Jan 2021)

Considering the last attempt at changing the constitution lead to the rise of the bloc quebecois and the 1995 referendum, I would rather leave well enough alone.


----------



## Halifax Tar (26 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> Considering the last attempt at changing the constitution lead to the rise of the bloc quebecois and the 1995 referendum, I would rather leave well enough alone.


Not sure doing away with our ties to the Monarchy would embolden the BQ.  

I think the realistic scenario is that nothing will change and the Libs will appoint another GG and hope for the best.  Business as usual.


----------



## Altair (26 Jan 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Not sure doing away with our ties to the Monarchy would embolden the BQ.


You're not wrong.

But once you open one part of the constitution, you open the whole thing. And then come people with demands. 

And now I don't think it's just Quebec with an axe to grind, I'm sure Alberta is going to want a boatload of demands regarding the energy industry and pipelines.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Jan 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Just think if we dropped the monarchy, no reason why we couldn't keep the same basic Westminster style Parliamentary setup, vice requiring some kind of additional figurehead.



Not a governance scholar, but I'm not sure if you can have a parliamentary style of government without the reserve authority of the state, at least in some form.


WeatherdoG said:


> For some of us, the idea that there is a "government" that is above politics is reassuring. If the existence of western democracy was entirely on the shoulders of people like the PM, I'd be among the first clamoring for a new Roman empire.


That is the concept of the State - it endures and exists beyond government.  The US embodies that in their Constitution and flag (they pledge allegiance to it) but I don't think we have the history to make it work.  Their was born of revolution and originally created not by a sitting government.

The reason most Canadian are at best indifferent and at worst ignorant to the role of the GG is, in large measure, a failing of our educational system.

I think any government that tried to turn us into a republic without a referendum would sign its own death warrant.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> You're not wrong.
> 
> But once you open one part of the constitution, you open the whole thing. And then come people with demands.
> 
> And now I don't think it's just Quebec with an axe to grind, I'm sure Alberta is going to want a boatload of demands regarding the energy industry and pipelines.



Every province would have its hand out.  First Nations have a direct relationship with the Crown - that's what their treaties were made with.  They would all have to be opened up.  Given our historic limited sense of 'nationhood', what would the provinces want to leave at the federal level beyond the stuff that is too messy.  Defence?  Provinces would want to become sovereign states rather members of a confederation, just like the US.


----------



## mariomike (26 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> The reason most Canadian are at best indifferent and at worst ignorant to the role of the GG is, in large measure, a failing of our educational system.


I vaguely remember something about the GG in school. But, most of what I learned about it is on here. Thanks to our SMEs.


----------



## Kilted (26 Jan 2021)

As a strong Monarchist I am very happy to see that the vast majority of the criticism has been directed at the PM for his choice and not at our entire system of government.  He now has a very long list of scandals' to his name.  I think that it is a little bit of an overreaction to call this a Constitutional Crisis, its not an ideal time, but this isn't King Edward VIII wanting to married a divorced women that would have forced an election.  Although, this situation should have been handled better.  Trudeau should have at the time this happened either supported the GG, which would not have turned out well; recommended a replacement to the Queen at that point (there is no set term of office); or called an election.


----------



## ModlrMike (26 Jan 2021)

Any of those options would have had the PM look bad. His record of accepting responsibility for bad outcomes is, to be charitable, bad.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2021)

I have no idea what the GG does off the top of my head but people smarter than me say it's an important position to keep the government in check. I'll buy that. 

But the government has been doing some pretty rotten and unethical things and the GG hasn't said poop. Does someone in that position _really _keep the government in check it, is it really just a ceremonial position, or did we just have a really shitty GG?


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2021)

...the latter.


----------



## dapaterson (26 Jan 2021)

And the hits keep coming...



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-treatment-staff-rideau-hall-1.5887108?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


----------



## Haggis (26 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I have no idea what the GG does off the top of my head but people smarter than me say it's an important position to keep the government in check. I'll buy that.
> 
> But the government has been doing some pretty rotten and unethical things and the GG hasn't said poop. Does someone in that position _really _keep the government in check it, is it really just a ceremonial position, or did we just have a really shitty GG?



I don't recall any GG ever opposing a government decision in my lifetime (e.g. refusing to grant a bill Royal Assent).  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me if needed.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> And the hits keep coming...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-treatment-staff-rideau-hall-1.5887108?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


I see what you did there.


----------



## lenaitch (26 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I have no idea what the GG does off the top of my head but people smarter than me say it's an important position to keep the government in check. I'll buy that.
> 
> But the government has been doing some pretty rotten and unethical things and the GG hasn't said poop. Does someone in that position _really _keep the government in check it, is it really just a ceremonial position, or did we just have a really shitty GG?



It's not the GG's role to ride herd on the Government, that the responsibility of the opposition, courts, and ultimately, us.

Here's a decent analysis of 'reserve powers':



			Governor General of Canada: the Role, the Myth, the Legend - Centre for Constitutional Studies


----------



## mariomike (26 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> And the hits keep coming...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-treatment-staff-rideau-hall-1.5887108?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar


Back to charm school...


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2021)

Holy crap. She actually said "We all experience things differently". 

I thought that was just a jab at Trudeau people were making on their own. 

So is she just getting let off the hook and resigning with her $150k a year and $200k (or whatever) travel expenses for a job well done?


----------



## Altair (26 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> I don't recall any GG ever opposing a government decision in my lifetime (e.g. refusing to grant a bill Royal Assent).  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me if needed.


Because every government has been following the rules. 

I imagine the governor General needing to step in would be a last resort measure, not something done on a regular basis, if ever.


----------



## Haggis (26 Jan 2021)

Altair said:


> Because every government has been following the rules.


Do you include the current government in that?  Many may beg to differ.


----------



## RangerRay (26 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> I don't recall any GG ever opposing a government decision in my lifetime (e.g. refusing to grant a bill Royal Assent).  I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct me if needed.


Off the top of my head, during the Byng-King Fling, Lord Byng refused PM William Lyon Mackenzie-King’s demand that parliament be dissolved and an election called. Instead, he gave Arthur Meighan a go at forming government since the Tories had more seats.

So while GG’s don’t stop PM’s from being unethical douche bags, they are a check on them acting against the constitution. We probably won’t see what happened down south with regards to bogus election fraud claims happen here.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> I don't recall any GG ever opposing a government decision in my lifetime





RangerRay said:


> Off the top of my head, during the Byng-King Fling


Haggis isn't_ that_ old.


----------



## RangerRay (26 Jan 2021)

My bad, I missed that qualifier.

Since Massey and Vanier (with the exception of Johnston) i think our governors general have been either political hacks or celebrities, so they may not have been willing to go toe-to-toe against a sitting prime minister. But I don’t think we have had any situation since Byng-King for a GG to smack down a PM that went seriously out of their lane.


----------



## Altair (26 Jan 2021)

Haggis said:


> Do you include the current government in that?  Many may beg to differ.


I include every government in that.

I may not like what they do, decisions they make, but they are not using the military to arrest members of the opposition or having fraudulent elections, or anything like that.


----------



## RangerRay (27 Jan 2021)

I just remembered a more recent example. 

In 2017 after the provincial election, the BC Liberals had the most seats but a minority government. Christy Clark attempted to form government but the NDP and Greens made a supply and confidence agreement. Clark tried to get the Lieutenant Governor to dissolve the Legislature and call new elections, but the LG invited John Horgan to form government instead.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2021)

RangerRay said:


> My bad, I missed that qualifier.
> 
> Since Massey and Vanier (with the exception of Johnston) i think our governors general have been either *political hacks or celebrities,* so they may not have been willing to go toe-to-toe against a sitting prime minister. But I don’t think we have had any situation since Byng-King for a GG to smack down a PM that went seriously out of their lane.



.... or a supporter of one of our few, effective domestic terrorist organizations.


----------



## dapaterson (27 Jan 2021)

The People's Front of Judea?


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The People's Front of Judea?



Come clean, about the FLQ, Jean: 

"An outspoken Quebec sovereigntist wants governor-general-designate Michaëlle Jean to say how she voted in the 1995 referendum.
The call comes after an article in a sovereigntist publication that says she and her husband supported Quebec independence and that Ms. Jean's spouse, filmmaker Jean-Daniel Lafond, was friendly with former Quebec terrorists.

Mr. Rheaume said Thursday that Prime Minister Paul Martin should have checked Ms. Jean's credentials more carefully and called him "an amateur to name a person who many believe is a sovereigntist, to name this person head of state."

He has written to Ms. Jean asking how she voted in Quebec's 1995 sovereignty referendum, which federalists won by a razor-thin majority."











						Separatist says 'Come clean, Jean'
					

An outspoken Quebec sovereigntist wants governor-general-designate Michaëlle Jean to say how she voted in the 1995 referendum.




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## brihard (27 Jan 2021)

RangerRay said:


> I just remembered a more recent example.
> 
> In 2017 after the provincial election, the BC Liberals had the most seats but a minority government. Christy Clark attempted to form government but the NDP and Greens made a supply and confidence agreement. Clark tried to get the Lieutenant Governor to dissolve the Legislature and call new elections, but the LG invited John Horgan to form government instead.


Perfect example of where the viceregal role can be very, very important. We could easily see such things play out federally.


----------



## lenaitch (27 Jan 2021)

Just a recent example from Italy.  Their system is a 'parliamentary republic' with a separate Head of Government (Prime Minister) and Head of State (President) who is elected.  It seems countries with more fractured political system in terms of numbers of parties (9 significant ones in Italy apparently), resulting in ever-shifting coalitions, keep their heads of state busier than we do.  Systems need to be designed to account for this.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...to-resign-seek-nod-to-form-new-coalition.html


----------



## PPCLI Guy (27 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The People's Front of Judea?


Bloody splitters....


----------



## Weinie (28 Jan 2021)

Horrible that people in uniform "objected" to GG's antics. For shame.

Julie Payette upset that her RCMP security detail was allowed to participate in workplace review: sources (msn.com)


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Horrible that people in uniform "objected" to GG's antics. For shame.
> 
> Julie Payette upset that her RCMP security detail was allowed to participate in workplace review: sources (msn.com)


Boo hoo.  Tough tit*y said the kitty when the milk went sour.


----------



## dangerboy (28 Jan 2021)

That is strange you would think that you would want the people who are responsible for keeping you safe happy. At least I would.


----------



## dimsum (28 Jan 2021)

dangerboy said:


> That is strange you would think that you would want the people who are responsible for keeping you safe happy. At least I would.


List of people to keep happy:  Cooks, clerks, supply techs, and bodyguards


----------



## YZT580 (28 Jan 2021)

especially cooks


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> Horrible that people in uniform "objected" to GG's antics. For shame.
> 
> Julie Payette upset that her RCMP security detail was allowed to participate in workplace review: sources (msn.com)


Asking people who work for you how you are as a boss?  The nerve!!!!!!!


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2021)

Horrible Bosses missed an opportunity getting her on the show.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jan 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Asking people who work for you how you are as a boss?  The nerve!!!!!!!


Saw something on TV about staff members claiming PTSD. Sounded like not just the GG will be entitled to compensation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> Saw something on TV about staff members claiming PTSD. Sounded like not just the GG will be entitled to compensation.


Pull PTSD compensation for victims out of the ex-GG's compensation package.


----------



## Kat Stevens (29 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Pull PTSD compensation for victims out of the ex-GG's compensation package.


Ah, but that would be acknowledging responsibility, something I don’t think she did or ever will do. This is the way.


----------



## Kilted (29 Jan 2021)

Rex Murphy: No, Don Cherry can't be governor general. He likes people (msn.com)

I mentioned him already.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Jan 2021)

Maybe the best headline ever??

Justin Trudeau applauds Justin Trudeau's handling of the Rideau Hall mess​ 

Paul Wells: The response to the GG problem is a familiar one for the Trudeau government—nothing is a big, urgent problem until it hits the nightly news
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ot...VwUhDDnY5s73-oCa1K01Vn5rSc#Echobox=1611944739


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Jan 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Maybe the best headline ever??
> 
> Justin Trudeau applauds Justin Trudeau's handling of the Rideau Hall mess​
> 
> ...


Don’t know whether to laugh (because this is actually Maclean’s, not the Beaverton) or cry (because it’s so true and reinforces that the electorate is simply not being respected).

So: Headline 😆; dismissiveness and indignant redirection 😢.

Canadians deserved better.  Much better!


----------



## Haggis (29 Jan 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Canadians deserved better.  Much better!


That would be more than he is willing to give right now.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2021)

So is she actually going to be held accountable for anything?

If any one of us pulled this at work we would hang for it, without a few hundred grand a year to wipe our tears with.

Is there going to be an investigation as to why she wasn't reported for her bevahior earlier, or if someone tried why weren't they listened to?

I feel like she's not the only one who should lose their job over this, or actually face some kind of punishment.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> If any one of us pulled this at work we would hang for it, without a few hundred grand a year to wipe out tears with.


If I was forced to resign, and got a severance package like that, I would be crying all the way to the bank. 

Civilian clerks where I used to work were vetted more carefully than she, apparently, was.,

"Payette resigned from her position as COO of the Montreal Science Centre in 2016 after complaints about her treatment of employees, sources allege. She received a $200,000 severance package. Payette also left her position on the Canadian Olympic Committee in 2017 after two investigations into treatment of staff, including allegations of verbal abuse, according to sources from the organization."

A $150,000 per year pension for life, and a $206,000 per years "expense account" for life. 

She's in her 50's, and seems healthy, so she could be collecting that dough for decades.


----------



## FSTO (30 Jan 2021)

Certain folks are entitled to their entitlements.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2021)

FSTO said:


> Certain folks Politicians are entitled to their entitlements.


FTFY


----------



## Mediman14 (30 Jan 2021)

Here we go, you all know that the ex GG will not be held accountable for anything. It all will sweep away, no matter what Government is in place. I applaud the person(s) who raised the alarm in the first place, that's what we need .

I am still trying to figure out what is the role of a GG, to read something in the senate? House of commons? Wear a Military uniform of his/her choice? Spend tax payers money? 

Do we need a GG? Will it make or break a country? I doubt it


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Jan 2021)

Mediman14 said:


> I am still trying to figure out what is the role of a GG


Google is your friend:  The Governor General

The Governor General has  important parliamentary responsibilities:

Summoning, proroguing and dissolving Parliament.
Setting  out the government’s program by reading the Speech from the Throne.
Giving Royal Assent, which makes acts of Parliament into  law.
The Governor General is  also Commander-in-Chief of Canada. He or she visits military bases and honours  Canadian military personnel on behalf of The Queen.

The Governor General also  fulfills important ceremonial duties:

Promoting a sense of identity.
Recognizing the achievements of outstanding Canadians.
Receiving foreign dignitaries.
Travelling overseas as the representative of Canada.
Hosting and taking part in official events.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Jan 2021)

I am more than glad to pay Julie Payette a $150k a year to fudge off and never be spoken of again. 

The Cosa Nostra call it "keep your mouth shut money".


----------



## brihard (30 Jan 2021)

Just to explain in practical terms why we will always have a GG:

The position of Governor General, and the roles outlined a couple posts up, and written right into the Constitution. Conversely the role of the Prime Minister actually isn't - it's a convention, but not a written rule. The role of the GG in exercising executive power on the advice and with the consent of the government is an absolutely core principle of how our parliamentary democracy functions.

To get rid of the role of GG, or to substantially alter their functions, would require amendment of the Constitution. Our Constitution has different amending formulas depending on the changes envisioned. Any change to the role of the GG requires the hardest amendment: unanimous consent of the provincial and federal legislatures, in the form of all ten provincial governments and the federal government passing corresponding legislation provincially or federally. If one province balks, it's not happening.

In Canadian constitutional politics, since the failure of the Meech Lake Accord, it's pretty much accepted that our constitution is unlikely to change much due to the difficulty in amending it. There are too many disparate interests among the various provinces. If the constitution were to get reopened, every province would be lining up to get some advantage out of it, probably at the expense of another who wouldn't go for it.

So, in practical terms, I believe we are 'stuck' with the GG as the head of state, and as the chief executive of Canada in exercising all of the functions assigned to him or her. Personally, I like it because it's pretty stable and it works. Unfortunately we ended up with one who was a human resources dumpster fire (to put it charitably). There are ways to avoid that mistake in future without opening up our entire system of government for a rewrite.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> The Governor General also  fulfills important ceremonial duties:
> 
> Promoting a sense of identity.



She promoted the sense of identity for the LPC perfectly.


----------



## Haggis (30 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> There are ways to avoid that mistake in future without opening up our entire system of government for a rewrite.


Maybe not hiring your wife's underemployed friend?  Doing a thorough background check on all prospective candidates, even if there is only one and your wife says she's good to go?  Having a selection committee?


----------



## lenaitch (30 Jan 2021)

I have a sense that the next GG will be somebody most of us have never heard of before.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I have a sense that the next GG will be somebody most of us have never heard of before.


I hope so. None of the celebretards who have held the position have been worth a dead dogs fart.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I have a sense that the next GG will be somebody most of us have never heard of before.


With any luck. That is actually how this is supposed to work.


----------



## FSTO (31 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I have a sense that the next GG will be somebody most of us have never heard of before.


That goes against the very soul of the Liberal Party of Canada.


----------



## blacktriangle (31 Jan 2021)

Is "Payette" French for "payout"? Because that looks like what she's getting. Her pension is a slap in the face to most who have ever served this country (military, or civilian)


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2021)

reveng said:


> Her pension is a slap in the face to most who have ever served this country (military, or civilian)


Slap in the face to any working Canadian whose taxes are paying for it, and the expense account.


----------



## Kilted (31 Jan 2021)

Just to point out on what was said above, the GG is not our Head of State, the Queen is. Although Michelle Jean did try to call herself Head of State, Stephen Harper such that down right away.


----------



## Haggis (31 Jan 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I am more than glad to pay Julie Payette a $150k a year to fudge off and never be spoken of again.


I don't think there is anything stopping her from seeking candidacy in an upcoming election.


----------



## CBH99 (1 Feb 2021)

mariomike said:


> If I was forced to resign, and got a severance package like that, I would be crying all the way to the bank.
> 
> Civilian clerks where I used to work were vetted more carefully than she, apparently, was.,
> 
> ...


This actually pisses me off.  A lot.

I try to avoid really listening to political matters these days.  Between the army of morons we seem to have in our leadership positions, the bias media that doesn't actually report anything fairly or in it's entirety, and a society that seems to be more polarized than I've ever seen it... I truly do try to avoid politics these days.  (I blame the media - purely - for society being so polarized, as it almost seems that is their objective.)


But let me get this straight...we are REWARDING someone for a long string of behaving like a pompus, entitled b**ch - with what will add up to over a million dollars of taxpayer money.  Am I understanding this correctly?

She treats people like garbage so badly she is not only dismissed from positions, but the behaviour goes so far as to warrant a variety of investigations.  Position after position, she seems to treat people like dirt, and cause that workplace to be toxic & unprofessional - the exact opposite of what people should experience, especially in these types of positions.

Even her own detail, when asked by the investigators about her behaviour, stated that her conduct was unprofessional, immature, toxic, unproductive, etc etc.

So this is now the 3rd (or 4th) position in a row where she's been investigated & given the boot.... simply on the grounds of behaving like an entitled b*tch.


And now we, as a country who's finances are not exactly doing great, are going to REWARD this person with a healthy chunk of cash for the rest of her life?

WHAT.  THE.  F**K.   


(Sorry mods, genuine apologies on the language.)




Does nobody in the PM's office (rhetorical question) have the spine to say... "Okay, she's behaving like an immature little tyrant & creating a toxic environment for everybody.  We can't have this as someone who travels internationally to represent us.  Time to dismiss her on grounds of poor performance."   

And boom.  Done.  Bye.

I genuinely HATE how our so called leaders don't actually lead.  They dictate.  They play by their own rules.  They break the law.  They act like absolute morons.  And when they get caught behaving in ways that the rest of us would just get fired for... we pay them a wad of cash as a reward.  


<End of rant.  Just pissed.  Is it election time yet?)


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> This actually pisses me off.  A lot.
> 
> I try to avoid really listening to political matters these days.  Between the army of morons we seem to have in our leadership positions, the bias media that doesn't actually report anything fairly or in it's entirety, and a society that seems to be more polarized than I've ever seen it... I truly do try to avoid politics these days.  (I blame the media - purely - for society being so polarized, as it almost seems that is their objective.)
> 
> ...



If I were to get worked up about this issue (which I'm not because nothing surprises me anymore) I'd be more likely to aim my rockets at the person who hired her into that position.

Now, who might that be I wonder?


----------



## CBH99 (1 Feb 2021)

Totally agreed.

On the surface, she's a "Canadian.  Female.  Astronaut."  

Boom.  Checklist complete!  And to be fair, if an astronaut was nominated for any position I was hiring for, I'd take a look at them pretty quickly.  And to be honest, I would probably be biased and think 'this person is extremely intelligent, well educated, worked hard to get there, and obviously works well with others given the nature of space missions."


But upon contacting her former employers & organizations she's currently with... if the consistent response was "She's a psycho b*tch and we're in the process of firing her" -- she wouldn't make it past the initial review.



So yes.  Aim away & fire.

I'm moreso just frustrated that we seem to be rewarding people who behave badly, with more money than most of us are ever likely to see.    😤


----------



## mariomike (1 Feb 2021)

I wonder how much compensation her alleged victims will be entitled to?


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Totally agreed.
> 
> On the surface, she's a "Canadian.  Female.  *Francophone. *Astronaut."
> 
> Boom.  Checklist complete!  And to be fair, if an astronaut was nominated for any position I was hiring for, I'd take a look at them pretty quickly.  And to be honest, I would probably be biased and think 'this person is extremely intelligent, well educated, worked hard to get there, and obviously works well with others given the nature of space missions."



FTFY


----------



## dapaterson (1 Feb 2021)

The intent was for the GG to be a terminal position, and ensure that the individual would be set for retirement and not forced into other careers, potentially incompatible with the vice-regal role, post appointment.  Selecting someone mid-career has been the exception, rather than the rule.

(Similar stresses now with Supreme Court justices retiring and resuming the practice of law...)


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## Weinie (1 Feb 2021)

It will be interesting to see if any follow up stories of her antics come from CSA or NASA, both of whom are notoriously close-mouthed about their former employees. 

I have been hearing, anecdotally, (for more than 20 years), from people I know and trust, that she is a rat-faced bitch. Perhaps Canada's over the top collective ass-kissing of her went to her head, perhaps she is just a narcissist. (or perhaps just someone who had her ass kissed too many times.)

We are well shat of her.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2021)

I wonder how many careers she's ruined or side-lined.


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## RangerRay (1 Feb 2021)

dapaterson said:


> The intent was for the GG to be a terminal position, and ensure that the individual would be set for retirement and not forced into other careers, potentially incompatible with the vice-regal role, post appointment.  Selecting someone mid-career has been the exception, rather than the rule.
> 
> (Similar stresses now with Supreme Court justices retiring and resuming the practice of law...)


Or it was a stepping stone to becoming the Viceroy of India.


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## dapaterson (1 Feb 2021)

Not so much any more...


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## CBH99 (1 Feb 2021)

I understand that the GG is a terminal position, similar to a PM or President.  They are the face of the country in some respects - totally understand it is a terminal position.

However, that is on the presumption that the individual serves honourably & conducts themselves in a way that reflects such a position.

If one behaves honourably and kindly, and conducts their duties professionally.  Absolutely.  

If one behaves like an unprofessional little tyrant, is subject to multiple investigations, and is thrown out of every position they have due to being a bully & sabotaging the organizations they work for.  No no...no absurd compensation for you.

Honestly I need to get into politics.  I really do.  I feel like I could do some real good in many ways.  And if not?  That’s cool.  Pay me a gigantic amount of money for my incompetence & I’ll be on my way 🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Honestly I need to get into politics.  I really do.  I feel like I could do some real good in many ways.  And if not?  That’s cool.  Pay me a gigantic amount of money for my incompetence & I’ll be on my way 🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️


You just described some of the people I have encountered in the military...


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Feb 2021)

From 2018


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## mariomike (2 Feb 2021)

Best gig ever!


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## dowadiddy (17 Feb 2021)

Altair said:


> I don't think Canada would be prepared for the double body blow that would be reopening the constitution and turning into a effective republic at the same time.


I know.  The current opinion is why re-open the constitution because everyone would have their own wish list and there would be no agrement and frankly the Cdn public is not clamouring for a change.  But at some point I am sure whatever government in power will debate the republican option.  BTW, I don`t foresee a `double body blow`.  If we change to a republic it would be in name only.  I foresee keeping the parliamentary system - no change.  The only change would be that the `President of Canada` function like GG now, be an emminent Cdn (no celebrities) with a background such as former CDS, PM, Premier, supreme court justice, president of major university who might also oversee the Senate (I like the idea of keeping an uppper house in some form).  I foresee the Cdn Forces enrolment changed to  something like: `I SWEAR THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE ALLEGIANCE TO CANADA, ITS LAWS AND TO THE ARMED FORCES.  I WILL DEFEND MY COUNTRY AND PERFORM MY LAWFUL DUTY TO THE BEST OF MY ABILITY, SO HELP ME GOD`.   I`m not a a strict adherant to any religion but am a person of  some faith and belief in a higher power.


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## dowadiddy (17 Feb 2021)

Altair said:


> I rather like the Constitutional monarchy. You don't see many commonwealth realms get involved in the kind of political instability that republics find themselves in.


Actually  the British monarchy  has had lots of upheavel:  1776 - U.S. Revolutionary War,  20th Century - IRA, 1960s - FLQ Canada, 20th Century - India, "2000s - BREXIT.  Monarchies in general have had TONS of upheaval:  Russia 1917, Germany 1914, Japan 1941.


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## daftandbarmy (17 Feb 2021)

dowadiddy said:


> Actually  the British monarchy  has had lots of upheavel:  1776 - U.S. Revolutionary War,  20th Century - IRA, 1960s - FLQ Canada, 20th Century - India, "2000s - BREXIT.  Monarchies in general have had TONS of upheaval:  Russia 1917, Germany 1914, Japan 1941.



Luckliy for the Royals, the French had a disastrous experience during their revolution, which helped ensure that the other monarchies in Europe were able to stave off, and crush, revolt by pointing to France as an awful example of what could happen when you let the mob take over


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## dapaterson (17 Feb 2021)

Paris: Great food and wine.

London: Overrun by Russian oligarchs laundering their money through the Channel isles with the help of London bankers.

YMMV.


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## dangerboy (6 Jul 2021)

Inuit leader Mary Simon will serve as the Queen's new representative in Canada, marking the first time an Indigenous person has held the role.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced that the Queen has accepted his recommendation of Simon, a past president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, the national Inuit organization, to be the 30th governor general during a news conference at the Canadian Museum of History Tuesday morning.

[more in link] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-gg-1.6091376


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Aug 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6121989?fbclid=IwAR3DMtC4ZhBF6ea_VLPWfepf1ybzBbJbcZCuco1QMV71eGK65aXYePMSbtE
		




CBC NEWS

Politics
Advisory council could strip Julie Payette of her Order of Canada
'Julie Payette has undermined the order of Canada and what it stands for,' says termination request
Ashley Burke - CBC News

Posted: July 29, 2021
Last Updated: July 30, 2021
An 11-member advisory council is considering stripping former governor general Julie Payette’s appointment to the Order of Canada after receiving a request from a member of the public.  2:34
As governor general, Julie Payette presented one of the country's most prestigious civilian honours to hundreds of accomplished Canadians. Now, an advisory council is thinking about taking her own Order of Canada away.

CBC News has learned the 11-member Advisory Council for the Order of Canada, chaired by Chief Justice Richard Wagner — who took over the governor general's duties for six months after Payette stepped down — is considering whether to terminate Payette's appointment to the Order of Canada.
Only seven people have ever been expelled from the Order of Canada in its more than 50-year history — and no one has ever been dropped from the order due to allegations of harassment — says Rideau Hall.

"Never has a Governor General been stripped of an honour. It's as simple as that," said Michael Jackson, president of the Institute for the Study of the Crown in Canada at Massey College in Toronto. "There is a long process and due process has to take place. If it happens, it will be absolutely unprecedented."

Rideau Hall received a request to revoke Payette's Order of Canada from a member of the public shortly after Payette's resignation six months ago. The complaint came after an external review found Payette had presided over a "toxic" and "poisonous" workplace that drove many employees to quit Rideau Hall or go on sick leave.

Former GG David Johnson first named Julie Payette an Officer of the Order of Canada in 2010 at Rideau Hall. (Christopher Pike/Reuters)
Rideau Hall: '... the process is following its due course'
Vancouver welder and public sector employee Giovanni Cormano told CBC News he filed the request to drop Payette from the Order of Canada. In his letter to Rideau Hall, he wrote that "Julie Payette has undermined the Order of Canada and what it stands for."
"For her to retain this honour would tarnish the achievements of Tommy Douglas, Margaret Atwood, Terry Fox, Kim Campbell, Leonard Cohen and Rick Hansen, to name a few," Cormano wrote in his letter dated Jan. 31, obtained by CBC News.

Cormano hasn't worked for Payette but argued in his letter that her alleged pattern of mistreating staff at Rideau Hall, the Montreal Science Centre and the Canadian Olympic Committee undermines the credibility of the honour.
Citing confidentiality rules, Rideau Hall won't say if it's received other formal requests to eject Payette from the Order of Canada.



According to the regulations, the Order of Canada is a gift of the Crown and can be revoked if an individual is convicted of a criminal offence or engages in conduct that "constitutes a significant departure from generally-recognized standards of public behaviour which is seen to undermine the credibility, integrity or relevance of the order, or detracts from the original grounds upon which the appointment was based."
Any Canadian can file a request to drop someone from the Order of Canada. If the deputy secretary of honours at Rideau Hall concludes that there may be reasonable grounds for revoking the honour, the complaint is sent to the advisory council, which makes a recommendation to the Governor General. The process can take more than a year.

The Governor General's office told Cormano it's taking his request seriously, according to an email viewed by CBC News.
"The reputation of the Canadian Honours System is at the heart of our mandate," retired Brig.-Gen. Marc Thériault, deputy secretary of honours, said in an email to Cormano on June 4. 
"I confirm that the process is following its due course ... The review of your request may take several months to be completed ... you will be advised in writing should your request be rejected at any stage of the procedure."



Julie Payette was named an Officer of the Order of Canada in 2010 for being a "source of inspiration and remarkable international ambassador for Canadian engineering," according to Rideau Hall's website. As an astronaut, Payette logged over 611 hours in space and was the first Canadian to board the International Space Station.
Order of Canada 20180906
Julie Payette appointed more than 400 Canadians to the Order of Canada during her time in office. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)

In 2017, the Queen named Payette an Extraordinary Companion of the Order of Canada to recognize her appointment as governor general.
The Queen released Payette from her viceregal role on Jan. 22 in response to a request from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
When asked for comment on the request to drop her from the Order of Canada, a spokesperson for Payette declined to comment. 

"Right now, her focus is on personal issues and applauding Canada's athletes at the Tokyo Olympics," wrote Lise Boyer, an agent at JP Communications. "Mary Simon's appointment as GG should also rightfully be at the forefront of public attention and Madame Payette has no wish to disrupt that."
A 'vindictive' form of payback?

Some constitutional experts argue that revoking Payette's Order of Canada would amount to overkill.
Barbara Messamore, who has criticized Payette's alleged mistreatment of staff, said it's "undeniable" Payette has "already paid a high price." She acknowledged some might disagree, since Payette is receiving an estimated $149,484 annuity per year for life after leaving office.
"Her reputation really suffered," said Messamore, a fellow and vice-president of the Institute for the Study of the Crown in Canada. "I don't think we need to take the next step of being vindictive, of pursuing every possible way in which we can punish her for her conduct."
She said Payette still deserves recognition for her work as an astronaut.

Carleton University's Philippe Lagassé, who studies the Westminster system at Carleton University, said taking back Payette's Order of Canada would be "excessive."
"She wasn't dismissed," he said. "She did bow out of the position. She agreed to resign in the face of workplace harassment allegations. She had to deal with the consequences of that already."

Lagassé said the allegations against Payette have not been proven in a court of law. The external review attempted not to make findings of fact but rather to determine the scope of the problem.
Julie Payette was first appointed to the Officer of the Order of Canada in 2010 for being an "extraordinary role model" to youth for her accomplishments as an astronaut and engineer. (NASA/handout photo/The Canadian Press)
Termination process confidential, says Rideau Hall

Rideau Hall would not offer comment on this case to CBC News, stating the termination process is confidential.
Rideau Hall spokesperson Lynne Santerre said in a media statement that the advisory council's decisions are based on evidence that "can include, but is not limited to, criminal conviction or sanction by a professional body."

"The termination of any honour is an extraordinary measure which serves to protect the credibility of the Canadian honours system," she wrote.
Some Order of Canada recipients have been stripped of the honour due to criminal convictions — which have included fraud, assault with a weapon and obstruction of justice — according to Christopher McCreery's book The Order of Canada. Other appointments were terminated over professional misconduct, such as making anti-Semitic comments or being disbarred from practising law, he wrote.

"There has been an unwillingness to strip honours from those who have suffered personally or who have made such significant contributions that their crimes are minor in comparison," wrote McCreery. 
If the advisory council decides there might be reasonable grounds for termination, Payette would be notified and given a chance to provide a written response.

If the case makes it to the end of the lengthy process, the council would make a recommendation to Gov. Gen. Mary Simon on whether to terminate Payette's appointment to the Order.
Simon is already familiar with the revocation process. She sat on the advisory council in 2014 — the year it recommended the expulsion of former media baron Conrad Black from the Order of Canada.
Black had been convicted of fraud and obstruction of justice in the United States seven years prior. McCreery wrote that the advisory council waited until Black had exhausted his appeal options.


Ashley Burke
Reporter

Ashley Burke is a senior reporter with CBC's Parliamentary Bureau. Have a story idea? Email her at ashley.burke@cbc.ca


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## brihard (1 Aug 2021)

I’ll believe it when I see it. That would be a pretty huge slap in the face, and she wasn’t charged with or convicted of anything. While I have very good reason to believe most of what was said about the work climate she fostered, revocation of honours is normally reserved for very egregious cases such as criminal convictions. She was made an Officer of the Order of Canada in 2010 on the strength of achievements to that date.


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## RangerRay (1 Aug 2021)

I don’t know.

I am not a fan of Ms. Payette. I became less of a fan of her when the revelations came out. But stripping her of her honours because she was a terrible boss and Governor General seems a bit much.


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## OldSolduer (1 Aug 2021)

RangerRay said:


> I don’t know.
> 
> I am not a fan of Ms. Payette. I became less of a fan of her when the revelations came out. But stripping her of her honours because she was a terrible boss and Governor General seems a bit much.


My advice; Let sleeping dogs lie.


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## Haggis (1 Aug 2021)

RangerRay said:


> I don’t know.
> 
> I am not a fan of Ms. Payette. I became less of a fan of her when the revelations came out. But stripping her of her honours because she was a terrible boss and Governor General seems a bit much.


As one of the criteria for revocation is conduct that "constitutes a significant departure from generally-recognized standards of public behaviour which is seen to undermine the credibility, integrity or relevance of the order, or detracts from the original grounds upon which the appointment was based" many believe she has met that criteria.  At minimum, I would support a roll back to "Officer" from "Extraordinary Companion".


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## dapaterson (1 Aug 2021)

Except there's more to it than that; a Governor-General is styled as the Principal Compainion while serving as GG, and as an Extraordinary Companion upon relinquishing the post.

Thus, although previously appointed on merit as Officer of the order, any talk of revocation starts risking infringing of the Sovereign's prerogatives.


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## Good2Golf (1 Aug 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Except there's more to it than that; a Governor-General is styled as the Principal Compainion while serving as GG, and as an Extraordinary Companion upon relinquishing the post.
> 
> Thus, although previously appointed on merit as Officer of the order, any talk of revocation starts risking infringing of the Sovereign's prerogatives.


Yup.  I’d be happy to see her busted down to ‘M’ember, from (Extraordinary) Companion.  She should be neither Companion nor Officer.


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## dapaterson (1 Aug 2021)

Except the "Extraordinary" attaches based on her service to the Sovereign and arguably flows directly from the Sovereign herself, which suggests that the Committee would have to recommend that the Sovereign, not the current GG, strip her of or demote her in the Order.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2021)

Personally, I could care less about Payette and her gong. It's  meaningless when in company of people like Justine Bieber, or used for political favouring. I look at this much as I view the OMM. Most are deserved, but many have been handed out to some of the most incorrigible assholes in this country. I judge people by what I see and hear, not by what they wear on their chest. Let her keep her bling. The faster she is out of the news cycle and forgotten, the better.


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## PuckChaser (1 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Personally, I could care less about Payette and her gong. It's  meaningless when in company of people like Justine Bieber, or used for political favouring. I look at this much as I view the OMM. Most are deserved, but many have been handed out to some of the most incorrigible assholes in this country. I judge people by what I see and hear, not by what they wear on their chest. Let her keep her bling. The faster she is out of the news cycle and forgotten, the better.


Dude, you realize Justin Bieber is not a recipient of the Order of Canada, right? What ever you think about "gimme" medals like the QDJM, we should be holding OMM/Order of Canada holders to a higher standard which is why there's non-partisan standards boards who review things like this.


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## SupersonicMax (1 Aug 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Dude, you realize Justin Bieber is not a recipient of the Order of Canada, right? What ever you think about "gimme" medals like the QDJM, we should be holding OMM/Order of Canada holders to a higher standard which is why there's non-partisan standards boards who review things like this.


(And Bieber’s QDJM was given by Harper)


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Dude, you realize Justin Bieber is not a recipient of the Order of Canada, right? What ever you think about "gimme" medals like the QDJM, we should be holding OMM/Order of Canada holders to a higher standard which is why there's non-partisan standards boards who review things like this.


You're right. It was the Jubilee medal. And you're also right that recipients should be held to a higher standard, but we fail that on a pretty regular basis. I view it as the person makes the decoration. The decoration does not make the person. I'll  likely get heat from someone about this, but Vance is a perfect example. I think he should lose his CMM for all the damage he's done to the CAF and its  personnel. And his MSC should get a serious look also.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> (And Bieber’s QDJM was given by Harper)


So what? It's not like he makes up the list himself.


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## PuckChaser (1 Aug 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> (And Bieber’s QDJM was given by Harper)


So what? Everyone's upset with Bieber for what he wore to get the medal. Here's a list of actually controversial awards of the QDJM:

Controversial Canadians Honoured

When you let politicians do things, they do it for political purposes. Thank God the political creep for awards hasn't hit the Order of Canada yet....


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## SupersonicMax (1 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's  meaningless when in company of people like Justine Bieber, or used for political favouring.


Well, if you say that medals are used for political flavouring and the Conservative government gave one to Justin Bieber, given your political beliefs, I am not sure what you are arguing. Bieber isn’t exactly known to support right wing governments.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Well, if you say that medals are used for political flavouring and the Conservative government gave one to Justin Bieber, given your political beliefs, I am not sure what you are arguing.


Likewise. What was your point? Just throwing cheap digs around trying to get me going? You failed that serial miserably.


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## SupersonicMax (1 Aug 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Likewise. What was your point? Just throwing cheap digs around trying to get me going? You failed that serial miserably.


Not really.  Just trying to understand what your point is.  You brought up Bieber’s decoration and political flavouring as a main point of your argument. I just don’t see a link.


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## Kilted (2 Aug 2021)

I don't think that this meets the threshold to have the order taken away. All of the others who have had theirs taken away where involved in some type of criminal activity. The issue with moving the goal posts on this is that it's hard to stop moving them, and all of a sudden we start to see people striped of it left, right, and centre for issues that most people don't have a problem with.


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## brihard (2 Aug 2021)

Kilted said:


> I don't think that this meets the threshold to have the order taken away. All of the others who have had theirs taken away where involved in some type of criminal activity. The issue with moving the goal posts on this is that it's hard to stop moving them, and all of a sudden we start to see people striped of it left, right, and centre for issues that most people don't have a problem with.


Right. She is, by many accounts, a pretty terrible person in terms of how she treats subordinates. But, when we as a species found a way to place her as physically remote as possible from the rest of humanity, she did some pretty good stuff that brought honour to Canada.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Aug 2021)

Kilted said:


> I don't think that this meets the threshold to have the order taken away. All of the others who have had theirs taken away where involved in some type of criminal activity. The issue with moving the goal posts on this is that it's hard to stop moving them, and all of a sudden we start to see people striped of it left, right, and centre for issues that most people don't have a problem with.



Why not? 

We seem to be living in an age of post-hoc enlightenment where we feel quite comfortable tearing down various mementos, and destroying lives and careers, based on applying modern sentiments to past alleged (and in most cases as yet untried and convicted) misdeeds.  

It would just be part of the current cancel culture craze for which history is unlikely to judge us favourably as a people.


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## Haggis (2 Aug 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> It would just be part of the current cancel culture craze for which history is unlikely to judge us favourably as a people.


You are assuming that the leftist elite allow the practice of cancel culture to be included in the history books.

I recall many years ago visiting the US Army Armour and Infantry museums in Ft Knox and Ft Benning.  There were gaps in both timelines from 1812 to 1815... move along here.... nothing to see.


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