# Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?!  Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!



## Armymedic (23 Jan 2005)

I read and reread this article, and still can't believe this could be true....

Obviously someone has lost their mind, and hopefully will get this IDIOCY sorted out soonest.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

Sun, January 23, 2005 

Forces' babies deprived

By Peter Worthington

You are not going to believe this. 

At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen? 

This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)? 

Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case. 

She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued. 

When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since. 

Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name. 

The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card. 

When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens. 

Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship. 

Krista knows otherwise. 

It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration. 

In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson. 

"A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since." 

At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up. 

No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed. 

"Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?" 

Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada." 

That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority. 

Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results. 

I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista. 

The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint. 

I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway? 

What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?   


  
Obviously, if this has been a issue since 9/11, then its a Liberal party problem, one thats got to be sorted out now. 

How many of our coworkers, friends, etc are in this boat? 

I am angry beyond words.


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## old medic (23 Jan 2005)

It's completely unacceptable.  I can only hope this becomes a major news item, and is picked up by other media outlets.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Jan 2005)

Here is my E-mail to my local MP:

Please see the item 'Forces' babies deprived' by Peter Worthington in the Sun chain at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html  

If this is true then the pointy headed pencil necks have, finally, taken complete leave of what few senses they had.

This is totally, 100% unacceptable and our national government must:

First: reverse this stupid policy; and

Second: fire the director general, directors and managers involved because they are, clearly, mad and, therefore, dangerous to Canada.

I was a platoon commander in Soest, in West Germany in the '60s - several of my soldiers had children born there.   They, the soldiers, were, always, better men than any bureaucrat could ever aspire to be, and their children must not, ever be deprived because their fathers served their country.

Please hold the government's feet to the fire on this one, Mr. Broadbent.   Things need to change ... soon.


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## Donut (23 Jan 2005)

I wonder if this is just DND, or do the CIDA, DFAIT etc dependants all get the shaft from the bean counters in Ottawa?  Thank god I got my certificate at the tender age of 5.  Nice cute picture on it, too!


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## Big Bad John (23 Jan 2005)

Insane and amazing!


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## 2 Cdo (23 Jan 2005)

Some of us have known about this for a while. I was born overseas and had a Registration of Birth Abroad Certificate. In 1996 I applied for a passport and submitted all the paperwork required, no problems so far. I received my passport and what I thought were my original documents! Wrong, they sent back photocopies of my certificate!
Fast forward to 2001 I re-apply for a passport and am refused because I don't have the original documents that this government agency took from me in 96! I am told that I have to apply for citizenship, a member of the Forces for almost 20 years! It gets better though, because I don't have original documents I can't get a citizenship card! Meanwhile the fight goes on, trying to work through all the levels of red-tape and sheer bureaucracy bull****!
This is the type of government that Canadian people voted for, and you can see how they look at you as a member of the Forces! Have a nice day!


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## Donut (23 Jan 2005)

2 CDO, that's exactly what I was afraid of.


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## bossi (23 Jan 2005)

Yup - proof of the high esteem given to military personnel by the federal civil service ... NOT!!!
(sure sounds like "second class citizens" to me ...)

Oh, well ... they'll probably get around to it ... after they've finished processing all the accelerated immigration applications from Sri Lanka, etc. ... (after all - they'll vote Liberal ... so they're more important)


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## Ghost (23 Jan 2005)

Yeah I think some people need to be fired


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## 1feral1 (23 Jan 2005)

Yet look at the crap they are letting into Canada through immigration (that terrorist family for example which made all that news - remember?) .

Pretty sad.

Good luck in your fight :rage:.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 2 Cdo (23 Jan 2005)

Wes and others, thanks for your support and no I'll never give up fighting against this corrupt government! Maybe my next step is to withhold all taxes from them! Claim that I shouldn't pay Canadian taxes as I am not a Canadian citizen in their eyes! We'll see how far that flies! ;D ;D


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2005)

I have heard of things like this.   One of my brothers, born in 1 (F) Wing Marville France and who now works in Parks Canada, ran into a similar problem returning from a conference in the US one year.   It is unbelievable that Gov't Bureaucrats create their own little empires and don't feel any remorse for anyone, even one of their own, that they may f**k over.

GW


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2005)

2 CDO

I like that TAX thing.   It may work.....look what happened with the flag flap... ;D

GW

By the way......how can we go about reaching our MPs and perhaps get a petition out.......There are literally thousands of people in this boat, born overseas in the last fifty years, plus or minus, of Canada's stationing troops in NATO and other Allied Nations.


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## Cliff (23 Jan 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Some of us have known about this for a while. I was born overseas and had a Registration of Birth Abroad Certificate. In 1996 I applied for a passport and submitted all the paperwork required, no problems so far. I received my passport and what I thought were my original documents! Wrong, they sent back photocopies of my certificate!
> Fast forward to 2001 I re-apply for a passport and am refused because I don't have the original documents that this government agency took from me in 96! I am told that I have to apply for citizenship, a member of the Forces for almost 20 years! It gets better though, because I don't have original documents I can't get a citizenship card! Meanwhile the fight goes on, trying to work through all the levels of red-tape and sheer bureaucracy bull****!
> This is the type of government that Canadian people voted for, and you can see how they look at you as a member of the Forces! Have a nice day!



Maybe you should contact Peter Worthington and the news media about your situation. It's an damn disgrace how this could happen.


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## aesop081 (23 Jan 2005)

I just read this thread..........i had never heard about this...

I was born in Lahr in 75...guess i'm gonna have problems soon !


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## winchable (23 Jan 2005)

Just about to go re-apply for my Canadian passport this week, I was born in England and my father was an officer teaching overseas at the Engineering College, so we'll see how that goes.


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## Torlyn (23 Jan 2005)

Right-o...  As a former employee of the passport office, I can tell you that the legislation does indeed suck, but a lot of it is just a matter of people not having the proper documentation.  If you were born overseas to military personel, you parents would have had to register you with the CDN government with your registration of birth abroad.  As for the citizenship issues, you're not re-applying for citizenship, whatever you've heard.  All you are doing is applying for proof of citizenship...  Yeah, it takes a long time, but them's the breaks.  Try telling someone born in Quebec with a birth certificate from prior to 1996 that it's invalid, or that if someone laminated their birth certificate, they have to go and get a new one...  It's REALLY fun.

Just want to make sure that if you do need to go in to do the citizenship/passport thing, remember that the poor schmoe behind the desk didn't make the rules, they just have to live by them.

As for military ID, I was under the impression that prior to Sept 11, it was possible for non-citizens to hold positions in the CF that would give them military ID, thus it isn't proof of CDN citizenship.  

T

P.S.  Don't shoot the messenger.


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## Armymedic (23 Jan 2005)

Right, I can understand the issues of passport application and citizenship issues due to the lack of proper documentation...

but in Mrs. Krista Bruton-Anderson case, all she is doing is applying to change her name on her legally begotten SIN card. So whats that mean...she is not entitled a SIN, hence not able to be employed? if shes not a citizen of this country, then how was she able to get her SIN in the first place? 

I must admit, I am not an expert to the sensibilities and details of these issues, but its the lack on common sense of this specific case that bothers me.


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## Torlyn (23 Jan 2005)

You know, I was thinking about this, and I didn't think that citizenship was a requirement for a SIN card...  THere are landed immigrants who still pay taxes, don't they have a SIN?  I wonder if the lady didn't have any documentation with her, and the media ran with it...  Wouldn't be the first time.  

T


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## Mike Bobbitt (23 Jan 2005)

Having a Certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad (even with a Canadian birth certificate) is not always enough. I've seen the Canadian Gov't deny that such a document exists, even when presented with one.

My advice to anyone in this boat:

1. *Do not* relinquish your originals for any reason.

2. Try to obtain new proof of citizenship under the new rules. This will take time and money, but be patient. Until the new proof comes in, use your existing docs.


Cheers
Mike


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## Highland Lad (23 Jan 2005)

BTDT - Born overseas (Hong Kong), and I was lucky enough  ??? to have my wallet stolen while in high school. When I applied to get a replacement certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad, I was told that that was not a valid ID, and that they were no longer being issued as of some time previous (no idea when).

I had to go out and obtain a certificate of Canadian Citizenship - headache and a half, but I was lucky to do it before 9/11 and all the pseudo-security bureaucratic crap that has taken hold since then.

IMHO, it looks like common sense and security seem to be complete opposites in some bureaucrats' minds (or whatever they're using to process data).

Mike, you're right - whoever is in this situation, get a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship ASAP. You may never need it, but when you do, it's going to be a (female dog) to get one in a hurry!

my 2 ¢...


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## George Wallace (23 Jan 2005)

Peter Worthington has also been following the lives of kids born in Canada, whose parents moved to the US to work, and when they returned to Canada, found that they were no longer considered Canadian, even though they at no time declared themselves as Americans.   We have some screwed up rules in our "Bureaucracy" which are disenfranchising "real" Canadians.   The numbers now sound like they are astronomical.   It is nonsense to have these people pay to be reinstated as Canadians.   I wonder, what would happen if they all got together and declared that they wanted all their taxes to be paid to the nation that Human Resources Canada claims they are from.   How many billions of tax dollars would have been collected illegitimately by the Canadian Government in this scandalous case?

GW


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## aesop081 (23 Jan 2005)

Highland Lad said:
			
		

> When I applied to get a replacement certificate of Registration of Birth Abroad, I was told that that was not a valid ID, and that they were no longer being issued as of some time previous (no idea when).



Mine was issued in september 1975.  From what i understand, this was the last year that they were issued ( not sure though)


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## Kat Stevens (23 Jan 2005)

I have 2 of my kids born in the base hospital in Lahr, 88 and 91.  They were issued a German Birth Certificate, not Canadian.  Anyone else experience this?  I was told I had to register their births with the German Authorities.  This struck me as strange, but in CFE at the time, it was better not to question it...

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Mike Bobbitt (23 Jan 2005)

Does that mean that they are subject to the German draft if it should ever come to that?


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## Cliff (23 Jan 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Peter Worthington has also been following the lives of kids born in Canada, whose parents moved to the US to work, and when they returned to Canada, found that they were no longer considered Canadian, even though they at no time declared themselves as Americans.   We have some screwed up rules in our "Bureaucracy" which are disenfranchising "real" Canadians.   The numbers now sound like they are astronomical.   It is nonsense to have these people pay to be reinstated as Canadians.   I wonder, what would happen if they all got together and declared that they wanted all their taxes to be paid to the nation that Human Resources Canada claims they are from.   How many billions of tax dollars would have been collected illegitimately by the Canadian Government in this scandalous case?
> 
> GW



I think that under the 1977 Citizenship Act, if you were born before 1977, it was almost impossible to lose your citizenship, unless you formally renunciated it..which required some paper-work.   Trudeau was real big about once youre a Canadian, you're always a Canadian.   But if you were born after that Act,   I think it became easier to lose citizenship. Any one else remember this?


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## Kat Stevens (23 Jan 2005)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> Does that mean that they are subject to the German draft if it should ever come to that?


As I understand it, my son could be conscripted if he ever returned to Germany.  He has autism, so he wouldn't be in for very long.  It would be fun to be a fly on the wall at the recruit depot, though...

CHIMO,  Kat


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## aesop081 (23 Jan 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I have 2 of my kids born in the base hospital in Lahr, 88 and 91.   They were issued a German Birth Certificate, not Canadian.   Anyone else experience this?   I was told I had to register their births with the German Authorities.   This struck me as strange, but in CFE at the time, it was better not to question it...
> 
> CHIMO,   Kat



Kat,

I was born at the base hospital in Lahr and i have a german birth certificate.   From what i was explaine by the canadian government , i had untill the age of 21 to decide which country i wanted to be a citizen of.   If i had made no written decision i would default to canadian citizenship.   I chose to retain dual-citizenship and thus i would have to face the german draft .


EDIT : almost forgot.............CHIMO !


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## mo-litia (23 Jan 2005)

I am contacting my MP via his website and sending him a copy of this story:
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html

I strongly suggest that everybody who reads this post does the same thing; this is unacceptable!   :rage:

For those who would like an easy link to finding your Member of Parliament by entering your postal code, here is the link to that site:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/about/people/house/PostalCode.asp?Source=SM

Enter your code, click on your MP's name and then click contact information for your MP's email address.   

As CF members, we must speak up as this government will never cease their idiocy unless they are shamed into doing so!


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## Torlyn (23 Jan 2005)

Cliff said:
			
		

> I think that under the 1977 Citizenship Act, if you were born before 1977, it was almost impossible to lose your citizenship, unless you formally renunciated it..which required some paper-work.  Trudeau was real big about once youre a Canadian, you're always a Canadian.  But if you were born after that Act,  I think it became easier to lose citizenship. Any one else remember this?



It's actually since 1977 it's impossible to loose citizenship.  You can renounce it, but not loose it.  I believe that prior to 1977, you could only loose it if you were born overseas, (ie Germany) and did not declare your citizenship to the CDN authorities before you turned 21...  Which would actually mean you would have to have been born (for that situation) before Feb 14, 1956...

T


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## LF(CMO) (23 Jan 2005)

"Do not relinqish your originals for any reason"  

 Good advice Mike, but you have to send in your ORIGINAL Certificate of citizenship if you were not born in Canada with your passport application.  I had this 'feeling' that it was dangerous to let the original out of my hand, but the secretary at the MP's office assured me that I would get it back.

 BTW: In my family we have been going back and forth between the US and Canada for about 3 generations.  I claim to be a US citizen as I was born there and Canadian as my mother was a Canadian.  All our kids were born here and have certficates as US citizens born abroad as my wife is a US citizen.  

 Here is a Question?  If you have taken the Oath to join the CF, do you lose your US citizenship?  That is what I've been told.  So if that's true then I quess I'm not a US citizen.


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## Cliff (23 Jan 2005)

Torlyn said:
			
		

> It's actually since 1977 it's impossible to loose citizenship.   You can renounce it, but not loose it.   I believe that prior to 1977, you could only loose it if you were born overseas, (ie Germany) and did not declare your citizenship to the CDN authorities before you turned 21...   Which would actually mean you would have to have been born (for that situation) before Feb 14, 1956...
> 
> T



Thanks for posting. Looks like I got it backwards!


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## jonsey (24 Jan 2005)

You know, sometimes, when I hear about stuff like this, it makes me want to reconsider moving to another country.   I doubt I ever will, but it's always there to consider.


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## JAFMA (24 Jan 2005)

Regarding this matter, has anybody bothered to look up what CFAO's  have to say about this. http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/026-09_e.asp.  My understanding is that it is up to the parents when they return to Canada to ensure that all the i's are dotted and the T's are crossed regarding any dependants born overseas.  Just like when you get over paid it is up to the member.  Remember we have the right people to talk to and they are the RMS Clerks.  Another question I have is this really a Military matter how many postings overseas do we have now 1 maybe 2 at the most.  That's if you don't include the embassies. As for Mr. Worthington well he is just another blow hard reporter that likes to makes mountains out of mole hills. But that is my opinion.


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## DAA (24 Jan 2005)

Now this is absolutely incredible! 

From the Toronto Sun Newspaper, Sunday Edition, by Peter Worthington.

You are not going to believe this. 

At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen? 

This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)? 

Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case. 

She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued. 

When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since. 

Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name. 

The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card. 

When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens. 

Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship. 

Krista knows otherwise. 

It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration. 

In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson. 

"A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since." 

At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up. 

No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed. 

"Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?" 

Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada." 

That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority. 

Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results. 

I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista. 

The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint. 

I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway? 

What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?


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## George Wallace (24 Jan 2005)

JAFMA said:
			
		

> Regarding this matter, has anybody bothered to look up what CFAO's have to say about this. http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/026-09_e.asp. My understanding is that it is up to the parents when they return to Canada to ensure that all the i's are dotted and the T's are crossed regarding any dependants born overseas. Just like when you get over paid it is up to the member. Remember we have the right people to talk to and they are the RMS Clerks. Another question I have is this really a Military matter how many postings overseas do we have now 1 maybe 2 at the most. That's if you don't include the embassies. As for Mr. Worthington well he is just another blow hard reporter that likes to makes mountains out of mole hills. But that is my opinion.



Please read the Posts and some history.   This affects hundreds of thousands of Canadians.   I have a brother who was born at 1 (F) Wing Marville France in 1963 (as I posted earlier), and he has run into this problem at the border when bringing his family back from a vacation in Florida.   When he was 21 he had to choose citizenship, and this bureaucratic blundering has still affected him years later.   I know several serving members, and know there are hundreds more, who have been born of CF parents on tours to France, Germany, Belgium, US, UK, etc, who are now faced with this ridiculous policy by one Government Dept, contrary to several other Departments.   

I see that your impression of the Press is very tainted.   Mr. Worthington is a former PPCLI officer and Korea Vet.   His father is the "Father of the Royal Canadian Armour Corps".   I'd say that he was far from a blow hard reporter.   He is a strong supporter of the Armed Forces.  He has also been keeping updates on another group of Canadian 'children' who have been disenfranchised in a similar manner for years.   

GW


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## Gunnar (24 Jan 2005)

So, since she's no longer a citizen, can she get the foreign rate for her income tax, back-dated to the year she first started paying it?

Oh yes, and a refund of her UI and CPP premiums?  I'm sure this would cost the government less than fixing her citizenship issues.


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## Torlyn (24 Jan 2005)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> So, since she's no longer a citizen, can she get the foreign rate for her income tax, back-dated to the year she first started paying it?



Ah, she's still a citizen, she just needs to apply to C&I for PROOF of citizenship...  Which can take from 9months to a year.  However, one phonecall from her MP should have things fixed by the end of the week.  I know that every federal department has different citizenship proof requirements, and just because HRDC doesn't believe her documentation doesn't mean she's not Canadian...  

T


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## Brad Sallows (24 Jan 2005)

Go to http://www.cic.gc.ca :boring:/english/citizen/bornout%2Dinfo.html:

"Find out if you are a Canadian citizen. Learn about what you might have to do to keep your citizenship."
...

"You are a Canadian citizen if you were born outside Canada and:

you were born after February 14, 1977; and 
you had a parent who was Canadian at the time of your birth.

Was your parent also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent?
If your Canadian parent was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, (your grandparent), you may need to take steps to keep your citizenship. You need to take these steps before you turn 28 years old. If you do not take these steps, you could lose your Canadian citizenship. This is true even if you are living in Canada."

...


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## Edward Campbell (25 Jan 2005)

I don't know if I have this exactly right but we used to call it the _triangle run_.

Dependent wives of Canadian soldiers in 4CIBG (Soest, Werl, etc) gave birth (in almost every case) in the Canadian wing of the British Military Hospital in Iserlohn.

1.	A day or two after the blessed event the appropriate platoon commander went for a visit, after stopping by the BOR to pick up a packet of papers from the Superintending Clerk.   

2.	Before congratulating the new parents the platoon commander stopped by hospital admin where he picked up yet more forms and, aided by the hospitals clerks, filled in most of the blanks on both sets.   Next came a visit to the happy parents who finished the details (name, etc) and signed the forms.

3.	Then the platoon commander drove down to Bonn, to the Canadian Embassy, where there was much shuffling and stamping of papers a smaller, replacement packet was given to the platoon commander who returned it to the BOR in Soest from whence, after a bit more shuffling and stamping and recording, it â â€œ some sort of birth certificate or proof of citizenship or some such â â€œ was then forwarded to the company office and the soldier concerned.

The adjutant was quite adamant about doing this right, the first time, so I suspect we had some knowledge of citizenship issues even then and we appear to have had 'workarounds' of some sort.   I think similar 'systems' applied in most regiments/garrisons _up North_, but I fear that personnel administration was much more centralized and, consequently, much less _*effective*_ after about 1970, when a much weaken 4CMBG moved to Lahr.

If memory serves ...


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## George Wallace (25 Jan 2005)

ROJ

You are talking of a time when there were two complete RCAF Fighter Wings and an Air Division Headquarters in France and another two complete Fighter Wings in Germany, along with an Army Brigade up in Northern Germany, with numerous other Canadian Detachments in England, Belgium, and such.  These are the children who are running into the problems today, not due to documentation of the day, but bureaucratic fumbling here in Canada by Human Resources Canada today.  Some brain here has thought it was proper to disenfranchise all these children with a simple stroke of a pen, and no thought of who they were.

GW


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## 735_winnipeg (25 Jan 2005)

someone in Human Resources Canada needs to be linch.


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## Corpsbrat (30 Jan 2005)

I came across this and was horrified to find this situation is true, I was lucky to be born in Canada before we were shipped off to Germany.
I can't believe our Government would do this to the Military Brats out there.
Read Below.
Corpsbrat 
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/907704.html

Sun, January 23, 2005 Forces' babies deprived By Peter Worthington -- For the Toronto Sun You are not going to believe this. At first I didn't, but I do now: Are you aware that someone born in a hospital on a Canadian military base overseas to Canadian parents in the Armed Forces is not automatically a Canadian citizen? This, despite having a Canadian birth certificate and social insurance number (SIN)? Krista Bruton-Anderson is such a case. She was born in the military hospital on the Canadian base at Lahr, Germany, where her father was a soldier (Intelligence Corps). A birth certificate was issued. When her parents returned to Canada, so did Krista, where she has lived ever since. Life was normal until she grew up, got married -- then tried to get her SIN changed to her married name. The ministry of human resources rejected her birth certificate and said no, she wasn't a Canadian citizen, and destroyed her social insurance card. When contacted, DND public affairs at first insisted there must be a mistake -- children born overseas to service personnel, especially on a Canadian base, were automatically citizens. Citizenship and immigration in Ottawa also believed being born on a Canadian military base to Canadian military parents and possessing a Canadian birth certificate was proof of citizenship. Krista knows otherwise. It seems Human Resources Canada has changed the rules since 9/11, without the apparent knowledge of DND and immigration. In 2003, the Oakville office of Human Resources Canada sent Krista's birth certificate and SIN card to Ottawa with the application for a new card in her married name, Anderson. "A few weeks later I was contacted and told my application had been returned as I didn't have proper proof of Canadian citizenship, and that my SIN card had been destroyed," Anderson says. "I have been without a SIN card ever since." At first she thought it was a bureaucratic mix-up. No, she was told, it was new security legislation after 9/11, and that she'd have to obtain "proper proof" of citizenship, pay a $75 application fee, get passport photos, have her identity certified by a notary public and then be prepared to wait eight months while the backlog of citizenship applications was processed. "Needless to say I was astounded," Krista says. "I've lived in Canada constantly since my parents came home when I was around 1 year old. Today I am a Canadian but not a Canadian -- no identity, no SIN. Why should I have to pay to get citizenship when I've never been anything but a Canadian citizen?" Why indeed? Her father, Dave Bruton, who retired from the military after 37 years, is equally upset. "This should concern every service family abroad. A child born on a Canadian Forces base, in a Forces hospital, under the Canadian flag, to Canadian citizens, should have all the rights of citizenship as if they were born anywhere in Canada." That was exactly the view of DND when I called them. It was also the view of Immigration Canada, when I called. That said, it seems Human Resources Canada is the final authority. Krista has contacted her MP's constituency office, where she was treated sympathetically, but without results. I phoned the human resources and was told that since 9/11 a birth certificate of someone born outside Canada is no longer acceptable as proof of citizenship. A Canadian citizenship card is necessary for a SIN card - and that has to be applied for, at a $75 fee. Tough luck, Krista. The constituency office of her MP (Liberal Gary Carr) wants to help, but it's helpless when confronted by a bureaucracy whose departments can't agree. Without a social insurance number, Krista is virtually stateless, and she is filing a formal complaint. I wonder how many of our married Armed Forces personnel overseas realize their second-class status? It's a slap in the face of our military. How dare an agency of government reduce the families of Armed Forces personnel to supplicants and charge them money to prove their citizenship? What kind of security is that anyway? What kind of prime minister is Paul Martin that he allows such an indignity imposed on those who serve the country overseas?


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## George Wallace (30 Jan 2005)

http://army.ca/forums/threads/25808.0.html

Found a few in the Army Current Affairs & News topics.   ;D

GW


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## Corpsbrat (30 Jan 2005)

Thanks for pointing it out George. I was flabbergasted to say the least at the mess this is making of peoples lives. Here I thought I fought the good fight to help the Veteran's get their license plates for Alberta. (expected early next month)
Now we have a really serious fight with this. I am contacting the media in Calgary, perhaps they can do a story on this as well, I think  Military Brats  should be warned of this before they encounter a surprise they werent expecting.  Its a sad statement to our country when prostitues from Russia can be a Citizen in Canada without hassels but Military kids are not recognised as Canadian's. What next deportation? 
Corpsbrat


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## carpediem (31 Jan 2005)

Rusty Old Joint said:
			
		

> I don't know if I have this exactly right but we used to call it the _triangle run_.
> 
> Dependent wives of Canadian soldiers in 4CIBG (Soest, Werl, etc) gave birth (in almost every case) in the Canadian wing of the British Military Hospital in Iserlohn.
> 
> ...



This is my life, I was born in that time period (before 1970) at the British Army Hospital, Iserlohn. The birth certificate was a DND Certificate of Birth (DND 419) (signed wth that three colour pen that they used to use on the Permanent CF ID card) which looks very official but is only an interesting keepsake as it is not recognized by any government department other than the CF (who were good with it when I joined the reserves in '85).

When I was 21 I had to apply for and obtain a "Certificate of Canadian Citizenship". This consisted of looking up the documentation of my birth as described by ROJ in the national archives and after waiting a few months signing some papers and getting a big certificate and a wallet card. When I completed this process it was at the same department where new immigrants went to apply for their papers and I went through the exact same bureaucracy but I didn't have to swear an oath or take a test, it felt as if I was grudgingly being acknowledged as a citizen.

My wife was born in a small town in Ontario. She has a typical birth certificate of the time (eaisly reproducible with any color photo copier   and she merily produces this and is automatically given access to SIN card, passport, drivers license etc. I have my nice official federal DND 419 but I can't use it. I need to pay $75 and wait months to PROVE that I may in fact be a Canadian just because my dad was serving his country overseas. All the paperwork was done at the time of my birth, heck they eventually found it in the archieves. Why do I have to have an archieve search done? Why are others original certificates of birth abroad not recognized on the spot? They should at least wave the fee for the first application for a citizenship card. We are treated like we are TRYING to immigrate, we are already citezens, we always were, we deserve a little more respect. /rant off 

Guess we are just another set of Canadians that the government doesn't respect...  (and yes, my little inconvenienc does not compare to some other peoples mistreatment (i.e., Veterans) by the bureaucracy / govt)


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## Fraser.g (1 Feb 2005)

This is the responce that I recieved from my MP Carol Skelton 

Recently, there was an issue raised in the media regarding SIN cards and citizenship issues for Canadians born abroad.

Minister Dryden's office, in conjuction with Citizenship and Immigration and DND has apparently resolved this matter.

Constituents are directed to call the SIN Call Centre.  I'm told that the staff has now been briefed to handle such inquiries at:

English: 800 206 7218
French: 800 808 6352

DND is working on a process that will soon recognize the Certificate of Birth Abroad as a valid document for SIN purposes and questions on this matter can be directed to 1-888- 242- 2100.


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## robbnest (7 Feb 2005)

I too had kids born in Lahr (90, 92) and we were issued "International Birth certificates"  Thus the kids are not German citizens. I believe this is what you probably have.  Check it out.   We also have Canadian Citizen Certificates for both kids with photo ID.
Hopefully these are still valid!!


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## mo-litia (21 Feb 2005)

Well, it's been almost a month since I sent an email to my MP, (Edmonton--Mill Woods--Beaumont, Alberta
KILGOUR, David (Liberal).), and I have yet to hear a response of any sort from his office.

Thanks, Mr. Kilgour - I should have known that a self-serving politician such as yourself (He was a Conservative until he jumped ship about 10 years ago.), couldn't be bothered to respond to an issue such as this. I know who I'm NOT voting for next election!!

Cheers


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## NCRCrow (21 Feb 2005)

Forum:
I was born in Iserlohn, Germany in 1970, have a high security clearance and a green and blue passport. 

I am a little confused.

Crow


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## Mike Bobbitt (22 Feb 2005)

CANFORGEN 037/05 ADM(HR-MIL) 015 211718Z FEB 05
CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
UNCLASSIFIED
REFS: A. CIC CITIZENSHIP POLICY MANUAL 1O PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP
B. PASSPORT OFFICE WEBSITE WWW.PPT.GC.CA
C. CITIZENSHIP ACT SECTION 8
D. CFAO 26-9 CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA - CANADIAN CITIZENSHIP
1. THE INTENT OF THIS MSG IS TO CLARIFY THE CITIZENSHIP STATUS OF CF
DEPENDANTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
2. BACKGROUND
A. PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP. FORMER LEGISLATION (DESCRIBED AT REF A) REQUIRED
THAT CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1 JAN 47 AND 14 FEB 77 BE
REGISTERED AS CDN CITIZENS WITHIN TWO YRS OF BIRTH AND BE ISSUED A
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD. SINCE 15 FEB 77, CANADA S
CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP HAS BEEN THE ONLY PROOF OF CDN CITIZENSHIP ISSUED
FOR CDN CHILDREN BORN OUTSIDE CANADA
B. SOCIAL INSURANCE NUMBER (SIN) APPLICATION. THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL
DEVELOPMENT CANADA (SDC, FORMERLY HRDC) REQUIRES PROOF OF IDENTITY, NOT
PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, TO PROCESS AN APPLICATION FOR A SIN. IN OCT 02, FOR
SECURITY REASONS, SDC ELIMINATED 20 DOCS FROM THE LIST OF THOSE ACCEPTED AS
PROOF OF IDENTITY, INCL THE FORMERLY ACCEPTED CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF
BIRTH ABROAD. THEREFORE, FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, THE CERTIFICATE OF
CITIZENSHIP BECAME THE ONLY PROOF OF IDENTITY DOC ACCEPTED FOR SIN
APPLICATIONS. THIS CHANGE APPLIES ONLY TO THE SIN APPLICATION PROCESS. THE
ELIMINATION OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF
OF IDENTITY FOR SIN APPLICATIONS SHOULD NOT BE INTERPRETED TO MEAN THAT THE
CITIZENSHIP OF PERS BORN TO CDN PARENTS STATIONED OUTSIDE CANADA IS IN
QUESTION
3. CURRENT SITUATION. WE UNDERSTAND THAT SDC NOW ACKNOWLEDGES THE VALIDITY
OF THE CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC AS PROOF OF IDENTITY
FOR SIN APPLICATIONS AND WILL REINSTATE IT ASAP. IN ADDITION, WE UNDERSTAND
THAT CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION CANADA (CIC) CONSIDERS THIS DOC TO BE PROOF
OF CDN CITIZENSHIP
4. OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
A. PASSPORT APPLICATIONS. IAW REF B, ADULTS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA CAN SUBMIT
ANY ONE OF FOUR DIFFERENT DOCS AS PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP, INCLUDING THE
CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD ISSUED TO CDNS BORN OUTSIDE
CANADA BEFORE 15 FEB 77. CDN CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 16 WHO WERE BORN
OUTSIDE CANADA WILL HAVE RECEIVED A CERTIFICATE OF CITIZENSHIP (PARA 2A
REFERS) WHICH IS THE ONLY DOC ACCEPTED FOR THEIR PASSPORT APPLICATIONS.
CONSULT REF B FOR MORE INFO
B. RETENTION OF CITIZENSHIP. WHILE THE CITIZENSHIP OF CF DEPENDANTS BORN
OVERSEAS IS NOT REPEAT NOT IN DOUBT, REF C REVEALS THAT SOME CDN CITIZENS
BORN OUTSIDE CANADA TO A PARENT ALSO BORN OUTSIDE CANADA MAY HAVE TO APPLY
TO RETAIN THEIR CDN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE THEIR 28TH BIRTHDAY. THOSE WHO MAY BE
AFFECTED ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO COMPLETE THE WORKSHEET PROVIDED ON THE
CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA/ENGLISH/CITIZEN/RETENTION-WORKSHEET.HTML
C. DND 419. A CF DEPENDANT BORN OUTSIDE CANADA BETWEEN 1963 AND NOV 79 MAY
HAVE BEEN ISSUED A NATIONAL DEFENCE CERTIFICATE OF BIRTH (DND 419). THE DND
419 IS NOT RECOGNIZED AS PROOF OF BIRTH AND IS NOT CONSIDERED PROOF OF
CITIZENSHIP. HOWEVER, PERS IN POSSESSION OF DND 419 WERE REGISTERED AS CDN
CITIZENS IAW THE PROCESS DESCRIBED IN PARA 2A. ON REQUEST, CIC WILL CONDUCT
A SEARCH OF RECORDS TO VERIFY CITIZENSHIP REGISTRATION
D. WHILE CIC AND THE PASSPORT OFFICE (AND SOON SDC) ACCEPT THE CERTIFICATE
OF REGISTRATION OF BIRTH ABROAD DOC, PERS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA COULD
ENCOUNTER OTHER SITUATIONS WHEREBY AN ORGANIZATION REFUSES TO ACCEPT THIS
DOC AS PROOF OF BIRTH OR IDENTITY. IN SUCH A CIRCUMSTANCE, PERS MAY BE REQR
TO APPLY TO THE COUNTRY OF BIRTH FOR A BIRTH REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE OR
EXTRACT OF THAT DOC AS SECONDARY PROOF OF BIRTH
5. AS THE CERTIFICATE OF CDN CITIZENSHIP IS THE MOST AUTHORITATIVE PROOF OF
BOTH IDENTITY AND CITIZENSHIP FOR CDNS BORN OUTSIDE CANADA, AFFECTED PERS
MAY WISH TO ACQUIRE THIS DOCUMENTATION FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR CHILDREN AT
THEIR OWN EXPENSE TO AVOID FUTURE INCONVENIENCE. CIC SHOULD BE CONSIDERED
THE DEFINITIVE SOURCE OF INFO ON CDN CITIZENSHIP. CIC CALL CENTRE CAN BE
REACHED AT 1-888-242-2100 OR CONSULT CIC WEBSITE AT WWW.CIC.GC.CA
6. REF D IS CURRENTLY UNDER REVIEW TO REFLECT THE INFO PROVIDED ABOVE


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## renfley (2 Mar 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Wes and others, thanks for your support and no I'll never give up fighting against this corrupt government! Maybe my next step is to withhold all taxes from them! Claim that I shouldn't pay Canadian taxes as I am not a Canadian citizen in their eyes! We'll see how far that flies! ;D ;D





You should... I would... what a p*** off....  Just my 0.02$ worth....


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## winchable (2 Mar 2005)

Well I'm not going to go into a big rant about it, but it relates to this article and this situation.

Today I got screwed.
While I am a Canadian citizen (apparently until my 28th birthday) I have no way of proving it (a passport and a SIN card being proof as i understand) and on my 28th apparently I'm ...for lack of a better word, done.
Which hurts a bit, got to say that stings.


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## FastEddy (3 Mar 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Here is my E-mail to my local MP:
> 
> Please see the item 'Forces' babies deprived' by Peter Worthington in the Sun chain at: http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/23/pf-907704.html
> 
> ...




SIR; nice to hear a echo from the past, (Soest, Fort Henry - 55-57) Where did Brigadier Roger Rolley go on to ?.

But, back to matters at hand. Ottawa has a proven record of disregard for it Military Personnel, past and present. Just as it failed to recognize the Merchant Marine Service for almost 60 years. The DND seems to have no, or little sway over major decisions other than party lines.

I realize that in any Democratic Parliamentary County, the Military serves at their pleasure. But the DND have little or no sway at all it seems in Ottawa.

I feel that their regard and attitude is akin to one's going to the Dentist (its too painful - to expensive and do I really need to.).

In the case of Canadian Citizenship for the Dependents of Service Personnel born abroad, it is a total disaster and disgrace. Maybe we could expedite the process by claiming Refugee Status, it seems to work for them pretty well wether its the case or not.

But remeber, even if you'r getting shafted along the way (which we all agree you are) IT'S WORTH IT TO LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY AND BE A CANADIAN._


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## Army-brat (14 Mar 2005)

I just heard about this shit on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!


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## Torlyn (14 Mar 2005)

Army-brat said:
			
		

> I just heard about this shit on Citizenship, I was born in Lahr Germany, 86. Although I'm young I had planned to apply for the RCMP in the next month or so, now I can't do anything until this is all sorted out! I mean they didn't even give my parents a birth certificate. All they got was a laminated card with my baby picture on it that states I'm a Canadian Citizen! But about a month ago I applied for a passport and still waiting to hear whether or not I'm going to be luck enough or not! I can be naive and hope!



That laminated thing IS your proof of Canadian citizenship.  The fault rests on no one save yourself for not updating the picture.  (Which CIC will do for a nominal fee)

T


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## atlin77 (15 Mar 2005)

I have two children born in Germany while we were serving with the Armed Forces in Lahr.  One born in Baden Soellingen in 1967 and one born in Lahr in 1969.  We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.  Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.  They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.

For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship.  Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.

Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go.  I have advised my MP of the situation.


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## Torlyn (15 Mar 2005)

atlin77 said:
			
		

> We were told that they were Canadian Citizens and were issued certificates of birth abroad and social insurance cards from Ottawa.   Now my children are 36 and 37 years old and have to apply for proof of citizenship.   They have lost their certifications of birth abroad and now have to try and prove that they are canadian citizens and pay for the priviledge.



Try loosing your birth certificate from Ontario.  If you loose all of your ID, the process isn't all that fun, and I know that Ontario has had a hell of a time getting things done in a timely manner.  It's not just those born overseas.  You've got citizenship, you just need proof, as do those of us born here in Canada.

T


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## George Wallace (15 Mar 2005)

atlin77 said:
			
		

> For those of you who suggested withholding income tax, I would like to remind you that taxation is a product of income, not citizenship. Even aliens who earn income in Canada must pay tax on it.
> 
> Perhaps a class action suit against Human Resources would be the way to go. I have advised my MP of the situation.



Yes that is true about Taxation, unless......I believe you can pay your taxes to another country; your Mother Country, as many Americans do who work in Canada.   What would happen if your kids said that they wanted to pay their taxes to Germany instead?  How many others are in the same boat?  What would happen if Germany came back and claimed all those taxes "illegally" paid to Canada, with Interest?  Just some musings.   

I believe you have the best idea in a Class Action Suit against Human Resources.

I hope that your MP responds to your inquiries and you can post that info here.


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## FastEddy (15 Mar 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Yup - proof of the high esteem given to military personnel by the federal civil service ... NOT!!!
> (sure sounds like "second class citizens" to me ...)
> 
> Oh, well ... they'll probably get around to it ... after they've finished processing all the accelerated immigration applications from Sri Lanka, etc. ... (after all - they'll vote Liberal ... so they're more important)




Boy you don't know how right you are.


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## thehammer2001 (8 May 2005)

My mother in law was also in the same boat. She was born in germany during the Koren war where her father and mother were stationed. She was working as a nurse in teh US when 911 happened when she tried to return to border to renew her work visa, she was told that she was not a citizen of canada. Thankfully we have family in politics and most of the red tape got cut of her but still a headache.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Feb 2006)

I hesitate to drag this one back into the daylight....nah, not really  >.  Has anything come about to resolve this?  My kids were born in Lahr, '88 and '92.  They only got a birth certificate issued by the Ratthaus in Lahr, there was no other documentation forthcoming, and when I enquired on rotation back to Canada, was told none was necessary.  I have 2 ancient passports that they were issued, says Canadian Citizen right inside... good enough if accompanied with a birth cert?  They are both coming of an age where they want jobs, but can't get a SIN until this crap is resolved.  My boy is also special needs, and therefore needs proof of citizenship for any disability benefits once he reaches age of majority.  This is just one of a long list of things that keep me up at night.  Rant ends... :warstory:


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## 2 Cdo (14 Feb 2006)

Just thought I would add an update to my ongoing struggles with the red tape  involved in sorting out my citizenship. Today in the mail, after only 3 weeks, I recieved my citizenship card! ;D I cannot remember the young lady who finally assisted me, but her help was most excellent.

I think what clinched it was the photocopy of my Registration of Birth Abroad, DND ID card, PAL card, and a brief letter written outlining my frustrations in dealing an issue, through no fault of mine, that never should have happened. Thus the 6-8 month wait they anticipate turned into 3 weeks!

Did I mention that as a military member who needs to deploy overseas as part of his job was mentioned in my letter? VERY important point to mention.

Perseverance troops, keep after them, keep calling, ask questions of them, and maybe it will work out for you as well as it did for me!

By the way, my citizenship card and the paperwork for getting a replacement (if req.) are both safely locked away!(Just in case)


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## Guy. E (14 Feb 2006)

ooooooooooooo shit, i know some one born in Lahr? (sp) in 86 of a military family...

i know this may be kind of old, but are there any updates on the situation?


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## Kat Stevens (14 Feb 2006)

Well, just got off the phone with the Immigra policia.  It seems that I have to shell out $75 for each kid, because I was unfortunately too nearsighted to get all my procreating done before going overseas.  So 2 of my kids are less Canadian than 2 kids born in Borden... Complete and utter horseshit, Oh, and by the way, you're fuckin welcome, Canada.


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2006)

Kat

It is just the Government's way of getting back all that money they paid you in Foreign Service Allowances.


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## Guy. E (15 Feb 2006)

Please correct me if i am incorrect, however isn't there something conducted in our Parliament building in Ottawa called "Question Period"? does not the regular Canadian citizen have the right to bring a point point of interest or a question to the government in power?

I think it would make quite the impression if several currently serving and retired CF members showed up in they're DEU's and asked or read a prepared speech about this to the government.

get the media there and its a big stink.

or is that just a bad idea?


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## Kat Stevens (15 Feb 2006)

The media was involved from the start. A "certain journalist known to this site" had a column in the Toronto Watchamacallit, about a former Lahr Brat who was told she wasn't a Canadian, because her dad was inconsiderate enough to be fighting the Cold War (look it up, it was in all the papers) when she was born.  End result of said article?  A big, fat, FU very much.....


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2006)

And "Refugee Status" is out of the question.   :


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## Guy. E (15 Feb 2006)

So, if your not Canadian, what are you? German? cant be German... can you?


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## raymao (28 Feb 2006)

It seemed like a very scary topic you guys have been talking about. I found the following page at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/mapleleaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=vol8-08p18-20
to set the record straight, please read below:

Information on Canadian citizenship 
By Lt(N) Robyn Barnet-Kummer 

A newspaper article titled “Forces Babies Deprived” appeared in the January 23 issue of the Toronto Sun. This article has sparked many e-mails and inquiries from anxious persons who are worried that their Canadian citizenship may be in jeopardy. 

The article detailed the difficulties faced by a woman in Canada who had applied for a new Social Insurance Number (SIN) card after she was married so her card would reflect her married instead of her maiden name. Her application was returned and she was advised she did not meet the criteria for a SIN because she did not provide proof of Canadian citizenship. It turns out she had been born overseas to parents who had been in Germany with the CF. 

The reality of the situation is a little different than the article would lead a reader to believe. So in the interest of setting the record straight, I will try to shed a little light on the subject. 

Human Resources and Skills Development Canada (HRSDC) requires a primary document with all applications for SINs. For Canadian citizens born within Canada, this is a birth certificate or certificate of birth. For all Canadian citizens born outside Canada the document required is a certificate of citizenship. This is not just for persons born to members of CF personnel who served overseas, it is a requirement of all Canadian citizens born abroad. Canadian citizens born outside Canada are Canadian citizens; they just must provide proper documentation when applying for a SIN card. 

Research into the SIN issue unveiled another citizenship issue that CF members should be made aware of—some citizens of Canada do not automatically remain citizens for life. 

Persons born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 may need to apply to retain their Canadian citizenship. Retention of citizenship applies to Canadians born outside Canada after February 14, 1977 to a Canadian parent who was also born outside Canada to a Canadian parent. Such persons are the second generation born outside of Canada and will lose their Canadian citizenship on their 28th birthday, unless they make application for retention of Canadian citizenship. It should be noted that retention of citizenship does not apply to adopted children. 

For more information go to the Citizenship and Immigration Canada Web site at: www.cic.gc.ca. 

If you require further information with regard to the issuance of a SIN please visit the HRSDC Web site at: www.hrsdc.gc.ca. 

Lt(N) Barnet-Kummer is a JAG officer at CFSU (Europe).


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## Guy. E (28 Feb 2006)

Here is a censored e mail I got from my friends mother after telling her about this issue:



> From: "Tweed, Merv - Assistant 1" <TweedM0@parl.gc.ca>
> To: <_______________>
> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 12:42:17 -0500
> >_________,
> ...


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## StraitJacketMom (26 Sep 2018)

Hello everyone!

I just sent an email to the admin concerning issues logging into your Forum, but had NO problems doing so on my husband's computer, so whomever gets that email can disregard that. As long as I can log in SOMEHOW, I'm happy... thoroughly frustrated at the moment, but happy.

So this is the issue - and how I came to end up joining your Forum was due to an old thread from 2005, which was the ONLY thing I could find pertaining to this. The thread is here: https://army.ca/forums/threads/26123/post-155000.html#msg155000. Ok, so the issue is this: a friend of mine [and neighbour] is trying to get a copy of his birth certificate. Has been getting the run around from various government agencies. Why? Well, this is where it gets interesting and he's NOT the only one. His parents are Canadian, his military father was stationed in Iserlohn, Germany in 1967, his mother gave birth to my friend in a British Military hospital where he was delivered by a Swedish nurse. The thread that I referenced earlier is about a Krista Anderson who was a Canadian citizen, but after 9/11, and is not a Canadian citizen - ironically, Anderson is also my friend name, lol. Anyway, I've been trying to help him and his wife figure out how the heck to get his birth certificate. He desperately needs one in order to renew his Health Card, which he desperately needs to do in order to get a new hearing aid. He has only one ear and 90% hearing loss in his "good" ear. His other ear did not form properly in the womb and the canal is completely blocked.

Now, he's tried calling various agencies and has been getting the run around for decades. "I'm sorry, we can't help you, you need to contact Agency B". "Oh, I don't know why agency A referred you to us, we can't help you, you need to contact agency C", and etc, etc. He gave up trying. Now that his health card is in jeopardy - he still has his Red and White card, this whole run around is starting all over again. Over the passed few days, the following agencies have been contacted:
1. Service Ontario
2. Service Canada
3. the German Embassy in Toronto [my husband's idea]
4. the British Military hospital [since he was born in one]
5. the birth certificate place in Toronto [sorry, the name escapes me right now]
6. our local community centre - they deal with immigration issues, long shot, but worth a try

Agencies  1 - 5 gave the same spiel - "I don't know why you called us, we can't help you. Not our department. Call this other place." Our community centre admitted that his issue was way over their heads and didn't know HOW to help. At least they had the balls to admit it.

So, the multi-million dollar question is: who the heck DOES he call???? Is there any sort of Section 4, paragraph 7.3 in some government handbook that he can quote to say that, yes, it IS YOUR AGENCY that can help and this Section tells me so!!??

In reading that thread that I linked to earlier, the reporter not only does not exist on that site anymore, but the story is GONE. Total 404 error. I was going to try to contact him for advice. I read almost every comment in that thread, so my friend is NOT the only one out there, but what did all those other people DO?!?! I had to laugh out loud at one comment by 2 Cdo, I do believe, who'd suggested stop paying taxes... which my friend said he thought of trying that and made the CRS sort out the BS of proving he exists, lol. He believes they'll get through all the BS red tape, but I told him I didn't think he'd really want to wait in jail for 10 years while they decide to get around to it and sort it all out.

So this is the jist of what's going on with my friend. I've read the forum's TOS's and I'm pretty darn sure I've followed all the rules. To the best of my knowledge, everything I've stated is true and I don't think I messed up any information. I can probably answer most questions I'm asked, and if not, I can run next door and find out. This whole issue has been p***ing ME off and it's not even my fight, but this guy is good people and I've made this my "quest" to try to help him. I even also joined an Iserlohn page in Facebook, lmao. I don't know what's going on half the time - it's in German - but apparently I picked REAL good because after I sent them a message explaining the situation, I found out the page is actually for their City Hall! lmao They were the ones who said to contact the British Military... I DID get something wrong... it was the British Military, NOT the hospital that was contacted as that closed down and is now a women's shelter. There's a website dedicated to it. Pretty cool.

Thanks for those who made it all the way to the end of this post, Kudo's to you!!
StraitJacketMom


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## mariomike (26 Sep 2018)

For reference to the discussion,

Birth Certificates and Citizenship (Merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/17749/post-1441953#msg1441953
2 pages.

Birth certificate  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/123392/post-1441939/topicseen.html#new

Birth certificate - citizenship  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/122009.0

birth certificate  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/82132.0

I sort of somehow lost my birth certificate 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/113065.0/nowap.html

Weird and unique situation regarding my birth certificate
http://army.ca/forums/threads/114875.0

Language on Birth Certificate  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17749.0

Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/26123.50.html
3 pages.

etc...


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## Blackadder1916 (26 Sep 2018)

Info here
https://www.iserlohn.de/rathaus-politik/rathaus/rathaus-online/standesamt/british-military-hospital-bmh/


> British Military Hospital (BMH)
> 
> For almost 40 years, there was a British Military Hospital (BMH) in Iserlohn.
> Since the 1950s, several hundred children of members of the Canadian and British armed forces came into the world at BMH Iserlohn. Their parents were stationed at nearby bases and lived in Iserlohn and the surrounding towns: such as Hemer, Deilinghofen, Soest, Werl, Submit or Dülmen. It was officially closed in 1994th
> ...



And follow this link for details on how to request a certificate (if his birth was registered with German authorities).

https://www.iserlohn.de/rathaus-politik/rathaus/rathaus-online/standesamt/british-military-hospital-bmh/certificate-from-the-registry-office/


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## StraitJacketMom (27 Sep 2018)

Thank you for the links,  MarioMike, but having difficulties accessing some of them? Will try again later and if it was just a hiccup and I was just clicking links too quick.

Application - Birth certificate  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/123392/post-1441939/topicseen.html#new
[not a member, so can't access. Am willing to join if need be]

Q: Will my application not be accepted because of this missing document?

See also,

Birth certificate - citizenship  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/122009.0
["The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you." Not sure what this means? Am I too new to access certain things?]

birth certificate  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/82132.0
["The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."]

What happens if you don't show up at St Jean with your birth certificate?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/122316.0
["The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."]

I sort of somehow lost my birth certificate 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/113065.0/nowap.html
[got to read that one, not sure if it applies, but will have my friend read it over to see]

Weird and unique situation regarding my birth certificate
http://army.ca/forums/threads/114875.0
["The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."]

Language on Birth Certificate  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/17749.0
[cannot access page due to Google telling me that "Your connection is not private. Attackers might be trying to steal your information from forums.army.ca (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards). Learn more. NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID". Have NO idea how to get around that. Tried http instead of https, but no luck]

Now that I'm a member here, I would assume I can do more detailed searches and see what else I can find. I'm a total newbie when it comes to looking for information pertaining to Army / Military. With the original thread I'd read being so old, I'd no idea if there were any followup threads. I didn't see any, but I may not have used the right wording in the search to find what I was looking for. Hopefully, once I start poking around and get a better "layout of the land" here, I should be able to find things better. That'll have to wait till the morning, though, as I'm currently on my husbands computer and he'll be getting home from work shortly.

Thanks again, MarioMike!


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## mariomike (27 Sep 2018)

StraitJacketMom said:
			
		

> Thanks again, MarioMike!



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## StraitJacketMom (27 Sep 2018)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Info here
> https://www.iserlohn.de/rathaus-politik/rathaus/rathaus-online/standesamt/british-military-hospital-bmh/
> And follow this link for details on how to request a certificate (if his birth was registered with German authorities).
> 
> https://www.iserlohn.de/rathaus-politik/rathaus/rathaus-online/standesamt/british-military-hospital-bmh/certificate-from-the-registry-office/


That was the website that the Iserlohn Facebook page referred me to. My friends wife called, and she was told she had to call the German Embassy... who in turn told her she needed to call the British Military... and when she called them back and freaked out, I do believe then they told her to call Service Canada... which is why I'd asked if there was some Section whatever of Some Act that could be quoted to tell them that yes, it IS you that has to help and Section whatever states that by LAW you have to! I was adopted, so I'm used to having to threaten agencies by stating I know my rights and according to the Freedom of Information Act, you have to, BY LAW, tell me what I want to know. Not sure if that would apply here, but there's got to be something.

Why does this have to be so freaking difficult? Canada did not crack down on security in our airports like the States did after 9/11, we still let in terrorists, so why is it so hard to get a flipping birth certificate?!?!?!


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