# CF Reserves VS Other nations Reserves.



## Lost_Warrior (7 Apr 2005)

I havn't been in the reserves too long (a little over a year now), but I was wondering how our reserve force stands up in regards to training/equipment when compared to the reserve forces of some of our allies (and even non allies)

I'm looking for some feedback from someone who has spent time on operations/training with reserve forces of other countries, and for some details on how well trained we are compared to them.

Thanks!


----------



## Craig B (7 Apr 2005)

Its not really a comparision to a reserve unit but during EX Kodiak Strike ( Camp Blanding , Florida ) my Regt. was visited by the gunners from the 10th Mountain Division , USA .

10th Mtn. Div. was doing a work up for Afgahanistan while we are at the end of our training year .

The Americians were very impressed with us . We come into action quicker then them , record our guns faster and do it with much older equipment and less people . 

Craig


----------



## Craig B (7 Apr 2005)

Lost Warrior , 

sorry , I just checked your profile . Seems we share the same building   , look around the Mess for the magazine about Kodiak Strike , what the Americians said about 2 FD RCA is no bull#### , I know people who were standing with them when they said it .

Craig


----------



## DogOfWar (7 Apr 2005)

we hand with the best- having sailed with several different countries. Of course some countries have spec forces in the reserves. Austrailia and Britain come to mind.


----------



## Haggis (8 Apr 2005)

See the following article: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/MapleLeaf/html_files/html_view_e.asp?page=vol5-27p16

Approximately 90% of the Canadian contingent was Reserve.  A few of the PAff trainers, the Med A and the PMed Tech were Reg F.  With the exception of the Canadian and UK contingents, all other countries contributed Reg F with some even sending mountain troops, parachute infantry and SF trained individuals.  In fact, several of the Georgian soldiers arrived at the exercise straight from real world ops against rebels in South Ossetia.


----------



## pbi (8 Apr 2005)

The comparison is difficult outside a very narrow circle of countries (almost all English-speaking) that have a similar Reserve system. Most countries either have no real   Reserve or   rely on a "Continental" style Reserve system in which Reserve service is a component of a period of compulsory service, with obligatory periods of Res call-up duty every year until a certain age is reached. The US, UK, New Zealand, Australia and Canada (and, I believe, the Republic of Ireland...) have voluntary part-time Reserves that people can join if they want to.

Considering the huge obstacles and limitations our Army Reserve faces, it generally stacks up quite well against equivalent reserve organizations in other countries, and produces pretty good soldiers. A big part of this is the very active training schedule in our Army Res: over the course of a training year, our Res soldier will be on duty more often than almost any of his equivalents (USARNG, UK TA). This goes up for NCOs and junior officers, and way up for unit COs and Res Bde Comds. And all of this is achieved in a totally voluntary system with no job protection. It is important to remember, though, that our Res units are generally very poorly equipped, and as a result most of our Res soldiers have little orno training or experience with things such as tanks, SP arty, modern ISTAR systems, combat engineering vehicles, etc.

Cheers.


----------



## Lost_Warrior (8 Apr 2005)

> sorry , I just checked your profile . Seems we share the same building   , look around the Mess for the magazine about Kodiak Strike , what the Americians said about 2 FD RCA is no bull#### , I know people who were standing with them when they said it .



Cool.  I go in tomorrow for a vehicle converson course.  I'll be sure to check it out.


----------



## Lost_Warrior (8 Apr 2005)

Yea, we had met up with the 10th by accident in Florida while on a recce patrol.  They were on their way to that make shift Al Queda village I believe.  They have some pretty nice looking kit.


----------



## LawnDart (9 Apr 2005)

I'm not so sure I can agree with PBI. My experience with the Canadian Reserve Forces is that it's a pretty averge outfit.

I do agree that the most apt comparisons are with the other English speaking nations. 

But the Canadian Reserve Forces are really an ad-hoc organization. We seem to throw a bunch of university students and other kids together for a weekend every 3 or 4 months, and a concentration every summer, and expect that to turn them into potential warriors.

I served in the Aussie Reserve. Although like here, they were generally looked down on by their regular brethren, they were surprisingly professional. They trained more often and quite hard. They also enjoy some measure of civillian job protection. I had a government job, and I was afforded up to 4 weeks military leave annually, in addition to my regular vacation time. Non-government workers didn't get as much, but they couldn't be fired. The government also ensured money earned through reserve service was tax-free (up to $7000 annually). That was a huge incentive. As was also pointed out, they employ reserve commando units, allowing reserve members who wish to dedicate more time and effort to the skill the chance to do so.

Another good example is the US National Guard and Reserve. Maybe some Canadian units impressed some American units with their skill on an exercise somewhere, sometime. But really, compare that with the average US National Guard or Reserve unit nowadays. They are rotating through Iraq and Afghanistan as entire units on a regular basis. The last time a whole Canadian reserve unit went overseas together was WWII. Sending over individual members on a strictly voluntary basis piecemeal doesn't really develop a strong sense of unit cohesion and professionalism. Throw in the fact that with a few exceptions most reservists in Canada, if they do go overseas, are now going on boring rotations through Bosnia or the Golan. That type of duty doesn't really develop a soldier's skills to any extent. 

I don't know much about the Brit or NZ reserves. I do know, like pretty much everyone else that the Israelis are probably the best at that game, bar none.


----------



## enfield (9 Apr 2005)

I would agree that the personal skills and professionalism of individual reservists in the CF (especially from Cpl up, we have a high turn over with pte's) is quite high. Organized or deployed properly, a Canadian reservist is excellent - witness the perforfamce of reservists in Medak, or the fact that Canadian reservists (and formed reserve companies) have consistently carried out operations many countries (Eastern Europe and conscript-based forces) deploy 'elite' units for.

However, as formed combat units, I think the Army reserves is quite bad. The US and UK regularly deploy reserve units to very high-intensity theatres, and have done so with relative success. Canadian reserve units are simply not capable of this. 
A contingent of British Royal Engineer Territorials was on Cougar Salvo last month out here in BC. Their entire unit (squadron? how do Engineers divide these things?) had been deployed to Iraq, with only a couple months of work-up training, for an 8 month tour - I doubt any reserve unit in Canada could do that. They also indicated Brit reservists were now legally obligated to serve one year of regular service out of every 3 years if called upon. 

Personally, I've found our greatest strengths to be the voluntary aspect of our work. We almost never HAVE to do anything - we want to be doing whatever it is we're doing, and I think this often translates into a higher degree of interest and motivation in performing tasks. Maybe we lack experience, or training, but we're generally high-calibre raw material, and motivated and eager.


----------



## LawnDart (9 Apr 2005)

I tend to agree, that the level of motivation among those who remain in Cdn Reserve is up there Enfield. But as you've pointed out, the turnover among lower ranks is extremely high. There's no way to force people to stay in, so the Cdn Reserves spend an inordinate amount of time training recruits in the basics.

It's true, the Pats had a large contingent of reservists in Bosnia in 93, and the Company in Medak acquitted itself quite well. However, that was with a strong core of Regs, and against Croation irregulars, not hardened professionals. Further, it was mostly reservists implicated in a few less glorious events, such as the poisoning of  2PPCLI Warrant Officer Matt Stopford.


----------



## pbi (9 Apr 2005)

Lawndart: I think a few of your responses are a bit inaccurate or perhaps out of date. I'm not sure when you were last in direct contact with a Canadian Army Reserve unit or brigade, but things are somewhat better than what you are painting:



> We seem to throw a bunch of university students and other kids together for a weekend every 3 or 4 months, and a concentration every summer, and expect that to turn them into potential warriors




Most units, especially NCOs and officers, are much more active than this: I was not confining my assessment to field training only, but to all the other courses and LHQ training that goes toward building the skills that we test on FTXs. I agree that our training does not produce an equivalent to a Regular soldier, but nobody is pretending that we do: that thinking went out the window several years ago when the current Army training doctrine was put into effect: we clearly recognize a "delta" between Res and Regs, and we (normally) require about 90 days of training to get a Res soldier ready to go overseas.



> Maybe some Canadian units impressed some American units with their skill on an exercise somewhere, sometime



No: based on my own experience as well as the accounts that I hear from other members of our Bde units, as well as from individuals in other Res CBGs, I would say the high regard expressed by US Reserve types is quite common. For example, we currently have a team of officers from several of our units taking part in a series of CPXs with 34ID (USARNG): I was speaking with the Asst Div G3 the other day: he was very happy with their performance, and the leader of our team echoed. I'd say it's pretty common.



> But really, compare that with the average US National Guard or Reserve unit nowadays. They are rotating through Iraq and Afghanistan as entire units on a regular basis.



This is very true, and I visited one of these units myself in Afghanistan. I interviewed a number of the officers and NCOs, and I certainly agree with you that the training and combat experience will make for a very much better ARNG. Unfortunately, during their predeployment training they faced quite a steep learning curve due to the relatively lower individual skill level basis that ARNG units pre-OEF seemed to have. The ARNG system does not put Active Army types in a unit, the way our system puts RegF in a Res unit: the   ARNG NCOs I spoke with stated that they badly needed that direct interface with experienced Active Army trainers. Their NCO training in particular also seemed somwhat lighter than ours, although to a great extent experience has made up for that. The problem they are going to face (and which has worried the chief of the US Army Reserve) is that there will be serious attrition and reduced recruiting as the ops burden on the ARNG goes up-it may be difficult for the married guy with kids and a job to keep it up.



> Sending over individual members on a strictly voluntary basis piecemeal doesn't really develop a strong sense of unit cohesion and professionalism



We moved beyond this a while ago. While some Res do still serve as indiv augmentees, we have been sending sub-units of Res overseas for a while now. OP BRONZE, our final committment to FRY, was almost all Reservists, including the Comd and RSM. Starting in 06, every TF we prepare for deployed ops will have a Res coy gp as part of it. It is true that most Res units cannot raise a formed sub-unit for deployment: this problem is age old and IMHO the only realistic fix for it is amalgamation so that we have as many (or more) Res soldiers per unit, but fewer incapable unit command structures that we cannot populate anyway, and that cannot generate a unit's worth of soldiers. We have actually started a process like this in our Bde with the tactical grouping of our three Arty units, as well as our three Svc Bns, with the three units being placed under the comd of   one LCol with one RSM.

[quoteThrow in the fact that with a few exceptions most reservists in Canada, if they do go overseas, are now going on boring rotations through Bosnia or the Golan. That type of duty doesn't really develop a soldier's skills to any extent. 
]
I'd say that as FRY winds down, about as many Res are serving in Afghanistan, and more will do so in future, or wherever else we go. I disagree completely that the experience in FRY had no value to Res soldiers (I don't know about Golan-most Army Res don't go there any more...). The pre-deployment training alone, including the exposure to a RegF unit for three months, is of huge value. Then, the daily routine as a soldier, the teamwork, the exposure to other armies, the carriage of weapons, the realization that you are not in Wainwright anymore: all of these make a great contribution to developing Res soldiers. We now have Res unit COs and RSMs who have served on operations oveseas: at one time this was unheard of. 



> I do know, like pretty much everyone else that the Israelis are probably the best at that game, bar none



The Israelis are really outside my comparison because they use a Continental system in which Res service is a compulsory part of citizenship and there is no question about training time or job protection. Of course, if our Res had to be ready for combat in a few hours, or were regularly deployed on city streets with weapons, they would be much better than they are now.



> It's true, the Pats had a large contingent of reservists in Bosnia in 93, and the Company in Medak acquitted itself quite well. However, that was with a strong core of Regs, and against Croation irregulars, not hardened professionals.



But how many of our Regular soldiers (or the Regular soldiers in the Aussie Army..) can actually say they have been in combat: actually receiving shots fired in anger, with intent to kill; and firing back with equal intent to kill like the soldiers at Medak did, as opposed to just being in a combat theatre or on a peace support op? Not most folks, and not even most guys in 3PP who deployed on OP APOLLO. 



> Further, it was mostly reservists implicated in a few less glorious events, such as the poisoning of   2PPCLI Warrant Officer Matt Stopford.



Really? That comment verges on slagging all Reservists who go on operations (and by extension, all Res).Mentioning one incident and alluding to other unidentified cases is exactly the same logic people used to slander the whole CAR because of the actions of a few uncontrolled criminals. I think you will find that stupid/criminal behaviour on operations has been well practiced by quite a few Regular soldiers without any help from Reservists, thanks.

Our Army Reserve faces great and serious limitations, but if you consider the quality of soldier it produces under those limitations, and especially if you measure it against the dismal state things were in back in 1974 when I joined the Militia (when Res never went on any serious op, let alone hold any meaningful job on one), I think you have to give our Army Reserve credit for what it does, and for the progress that it has made.

Cheers.


----------



## Highland Lad (10 Apr 2005)

I'm going to try to keep this above the "Reserve v Reg" tone, but it is a very important component of my answer, so bear with me...

I've trained with a couple of USARNG units, and thought that we compared very favourably in most areas - as was noted above, personal motivation and desire are a large part of it for most Cdn reservists. 

The "we do more with less" attitude that is everywhere in the CF Res shines through again and again when I've trained with US reservists / guardsmen. We have less dedicated kit than they do (Man oh man! I would have a smile that wouldn't die if I was able to go to a designated trg area in Pet and be able to have my pick of vehicles and equipment designated for Res training the way those guys do...), and fewer soldiers, but that breeds a kind of jack-of-all-trades attitude, as opposed to over-specialization (I recall, on a range exchange, some Spc telling our RSM "Nope, I don't need to go shoot your guns, cause I'm a driver, and that's all I need to do." RSM just looked kinda stunned, and their First Sgt jacked buddy up in a way that would make any RSM smile...)

One major problem we have is our inability to deploy PRes units as units, and until legislation and commitment requirements change, that's going to stay the same - it's great that we are able to deploy reserve components within larger operations, but I would love to be able to say "Yeah, I went over to XXXX _with my unit_ in 2006, and it was great to be able to work for real with the same guys I train with all the time."

The single biggest problem with the PRes is that we don't have enough opportunities to practice our skills, and need refreshers or practice to get up to the level that we need / want to be at for real-world taskings. If we had more chances to train as part of Brigade-size units, in other types of operations, our skills would get more of a workout and we would be better soldiers (I'd love to see seasonal Concentration exercises, with varying focuses, instead of annual exercises alternating between offensive and defensive ops - and I know I'm over-simpifying things, but I'm trying to make my point here...).

Bottom line - until legislation and budget changes, our reservists are going to be pretty damned good, within the limitations we have, but always wanting to be the best, free of those limits. (and while we're dreaming like this, my little girl would like a pony...  ;D)


----------



## Lost_Warrior (10 Apr 2005)

> But the Canadian Reserve Forces are really an ad-hoc organization. We seem to throw a bunch of university students and other kids together for a weekend every 3 or 4 months, and a concentration every summer, and expect that to turn them into potential warriors.



I'm not sure which reserve unit(s) you're refering to, but my unit, and the friends I have in other units usually go on weekend training atleast twice a month, and usually 2x one week training exercises a year.   That's quite active if you ask me.


----------



## LawnDart (10 Apr 2005)

PBI, if you're trying to get a rise out of me by comparing my critical comments to those directed against the Airborne after Somalia, it won't work. I'm the first one to admit that as a unit, we had some leadership and discipline issues that should have been addressed but werent. That's another thread though. I also happen to believe some of the problems inherent to the CAR were directly tied to the organizational structure of the CF as a whole. Some of those same issues also affect the CF Reserves.

You, and most of the others on this site have relied on some anecdotes regarding the positive way the CF have been recieved by other forces, usually US. That's fine, but fair is fair, and if you do so, then don't complain when I bring up some negative points, like the one linking a group of reservists to the poisoning of Matt Stopford. After all, this is a forum, not a mutual admiration society.

As for the kudos given by yanks with regard to Canadian troops on exercises down south, all I can point out is that I'm not totally naive. I went down to the States 4 or 5 times during my time in the CF, and we hosted American units about the same amount. One of the things I recall, is that it is very unusual for staff from foreign armies to openly criticize visiting forces from an allied power. You'll see the same thing on courses (c'mon, when was the last time you saw a Botswani officer fail a Canadian 6A or JM course, or a Canadian/Panamanian fail a US Ranger course?). 

All that said, the units I was with usually acquitted themselves quite well. We had some wins. But not always. I recall getting our Airborne Asses kicked one day on the MOUT site at Camp Leguene and our Patricia asses kicked at Fort Polk JRTC a couple of years later. I'm sure if you were to spend lot's of time on a US website and waved the maple leaf around enough, you could find someone who recalled that. If that can happen to Regs, then I think it's a little disingenuous to say the least, for us to propogate this myth that CF Reserve troops are superior to the American's. 

As for rotations abroad, nobody will ever convince me that there is much soldiering skill to be gleaned from a tour in Bosnia anymore. Bosnia today is what Cyprus was in the 80's. I was there, and I didn't learn much. Neither did the militia types we took over with us.


----------



## Craig B (10 Apr 2005)

LawnDart said:
			
		

> Another good example is the US National Guard and Reserve. Maybe some Canadian units impressed some American units with their skill on an exercise somewhere, sometime. But really, compare that with the average US National Guard or Reserve unit nowadays. They are rotating through Iraq and Afghanistan as entire units on a regular basis.



10th Mtn. Div is not a National Guard or USAR unit , its Regular Army ......... and they've already been to Afghanistan , this will be there 2nd tour there . 

Craig


----------



## noneck (10 Apr 2005)

LAWNDART, As one of the members on this forum who served in Charlie Coy 2 VP in 93 as a reserve augmentee I would like to clarify some errors in the following statement you made:

Furt_It's true, the Pats had a large contingent of reservists in Bosnia in 93, and the Company in Medak acquitted itself quite well. However, that was with a strong core of Regs, and against Croation irregulars, not hardened professionals. _ 

1. The PPCLI served only in Croatia with CANBAT1 in 93 , it wasn't until 94 when a Coy of 1 VP augmented the LDSH (RC) as part of CANBAT2 in Bosnia.

2. The rifle Coys with 2 VP with the exception maybe of A Coy, were almost 75% Reserve including Pl WO's and Pl Comd's and all other ranks. Admin, HQ and Cbt Support Coy's were the opposite with a few Reserve augmentees.

3. As for the Croatian irregulars, the 9th Lika Wolves Bde and units of the elite Special Police were most definitely not irregular. You must also remember that by this point the HV was being reorganized by MPRI which would lead to a modernization program along western doctrine and ORBAT lines. This would ultimately be one of the factors which would allow the HV to retake the Krajina with complete success a few years later.

Check your facts. 

Noneck


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (10 Apr 2005)

LawnDart said:
			
		

> But really, compare that with the average US National Guard or Reserve unit nowadays. They are rotating through Iraq and Afghanistan as entire units on a regular basis. The last time a whole Canadian reserve unit went overseas together was WWII. Sending over individual members on a strictly voluntary basis piecemeal doesn't really develop a strong sense of unit cohesion and professionalism. Throw in the fact that with a few exceptions most reservists in Canada, if they do go overseas, are now going on boring rotations through Bosnia or the Golan. That type of duty doesn't really develop a soldier's skills to any extent.



Well, I can't really agree with you there.   I have some experience dealing with the ANG deployed to Afghanistan and there is - in my opinion - a significant qualitative difference between the ANG and US Regular Forces.   The "pointy" end was still by and large handled by the Regular Army or Marines.   PBI will know more than I regarding CJTF 76's deployments.   The Americans have several benefits that our Reserves don't:   equipment, money, manning and deliberately assigned operational roles.   Ergo, their units are better.   Individually, though, I just haven't seen it - either on operations or training down South.

My two cents.

TR


----------



## LawnDart (10 Apr 2005)

Sorry if I offended you noneck. I didn't know you were with "Fighting 8". 
Mea Culpa, I said "Bosnia" in relation to Medak. I reaized after I posted that it was Croatia. So what?

I don't see the point in your other arguments. I said there was a large contingent of reserves with a strong regular core. You've said pretty much the same. (75%). If you were in "Fighting 8", you'd be well aware that the most celebrated Section Commander of the night, as well as the WO were old Germany Pats from the 2nd Battalion.

As for your points about the Croats, hey, don't get me wrong. The Canadians there did a great job. But don't try to tell me the Croats there were equal to 2nd Das Reich SS either.

And Teddy, you raise a good point. It may be, although I think it's arguable, that individually Canadians are better than their US counterparts. But as units, we aren't even close. When was the last time we encouraged recruits to train and fight as "individuals."

We, as a military, are still locked in this ridiculous model that demands we maintain a litany of so-called "Regiments" in every community of the country. Few of these "Regiments" can field more than a platoon when called upon.

It's a model designed in the post WWII era, when we actually thought Canada would be expected to mobilize and then send 4+ Divisions overseas to fight the Soviets in WWIII. 

That's not going to happen in today's world.

An army isn't just the individual soldier, it's Sections, Platoons, Companys, Battalions, Regiments, Brigades and Divisions. Our reserves have given up on trying to exist operationally as anything more than a company. And even then, as an ad-hoc, piecemeal organization that defeats the whole purpose of the regimental system that won wars for centuries.


----------



## Armymedic (10 Apr 2005)

I have to interject,

working closer to the Indiana National Guard here in Afghan, I do honestly believe they are better at their jobs then our part timers are at theirs. One reason I say this is that while most things I have seen are equal:

motivation, commitment, professionalism, etc...

Of the US troops I work with most have regular service time, most in an active cbt area like Gulf war, early Afghanistan, prior to their transfer to the National guard. They look to reseves (in part) as a way to continue serving their country after release. And hence their experience empowers their units.

I believe we do not have that in Canada.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (10 Apr 2005)

Armymedic:  we'll have to agree to disagree...my opinion is based on dealing with the same group as a planner confined to Kabul (along experience with CFC-A and other units on a previous tour)!  However, as a caveat, I wasn't as close to them as you are... 

Lawndart:

We're busily comparing apples and oranges.  The US is on a war footing and is funding its forces and conducting its deployments accordingly.  The US Reserve Force underwent a major restructure some time ago designed to bring it closer to the Regular Army's standards.  Having said this, the US is still deploying its ANG in "lower risk" roles (by and large - there are exceptions).

Canada has not done this.  You mention that our Reserve is operating at a company or lower level.  Heck, our entire Army has based its whole "managed readiness" plan on sub-units!  We are not going to see regimental or higher deployments in the near future. The shortcomings of the Reserve Force, particularly with regards to readiness and unit level training are the direct result of the Army's priorities.  Until they change - perhaps driven by more urgent operational considerations - it is almost pointless to compare the US and Canadian reserve systems.

Cheers,

TR


----------



## Gunner (11 Apr 2005)

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore as it seems simply to be focussed on dumping on our reserve force (didn't the same thing happen in the CIC thread?).   

The fact of the matter is the only major "combat" scenario that the Canadian Forces has been involved in since Korea was Medak.   2 PPCLI's sub-units consisted of up to 75% Reserve.   These Reservists were not all infantry trained, rather they also included armour and artillery soldiers performing infantry roles.   Sure the nucleus of the unit was Regular Force, it was 2 PPCLI that was deploying.   What's the point trying to be made?   Did all the soldiers of 2 PPCLI do their job or not?   By all accounts, they did.   So Reserves can and have deployed overseas in combat scenarios. 

Can a Reserve unit be activated, brought up to strength, trained collectively and individually and sent into a combat scenario?   Well, isn't this what we did in WWI and WWII?   They seem to have gotten the job done.   Can we do it in the 21st Century?   Sure we could, but why would you justify the expense just to be able to prove that you could?

So the Reserves can and could deploy individually, or by unit if the Canadian Forces wanted.   Do the Reserves have problems?   Sure they do, as LawnDart mentioned, they are spread too thin, in too many units, with too little equipment, too few resources, a huge growing rift between regular and reserve capabilities, etc, etc, etc. 

Finally, I find using Matt Stopford's situation to make a point about the Reserves to be highly questionable. 

Cheers,


----------



## noneck (11 Apr 2005)

LAWNDART said _If you were in "Fighting 8", you'd be well aware that the most celebrated Section Commander of the night, as well as the WO were old Germany Pats from the 2nd Battalion_

I have never heard the term"Fighting 8" and  neither have two of my best friends Rob D or Tony S and they were in 8 Pl, while I was in 7 Pl. 

Rod Dearing was probably in Germany with 2 VP , but WO Desbarres 8Pl WO, was from 2 NSH in Cape Breton and I know he wasn't an Ex Patricia. He was still the best WO, Reserve or Reg I have ever worked alongside, he was a used car salesman  by civy trade.

Every member of that Bn group (Reg or Res)did their jobs during the Medak Pocket Operation, from the guys in the line to the maintainers fixing those overworked tracks back in Sveti Rok. I don't think we need to bash around that Reg Vs Res topic anymore, it's getting really old. In todays CF each of those elements relies on the other and the truth of the matter wether we like it or not it is not going to change. So bend or break but get over it.

Noneck


----------



## Haggis (11 Apr 2005)

noneck said:
			
		

> Rod Dearing was probably in Germany with 2 VP , but WO Desbarres 8Pl WO, was from 2 NSH in Cape Breton and I know he wasn't an Ex Patricia.



I have met both Desbarres brothers and have had the priviledge of being instructed by one on my 6B many snows ago.

In my earlier post I stated that the Reservists in the Republic of Georgia easily held thier own with Regular soldiers and SF trained troops from several different Mediterranen, Baltic and eastern European nations.

I should mention that the only other completely Reserve contingent was a British TA section from The Highlanders and a British TA captain acting as a Company 2IC.  Every TA soldier on that ex had at least one operational tour.  They and the Canadians were often looked towards as "The Standard" in terms of professionalism.

IMO the best of the non NATO soldiers hailed from Lithuania (parachute infantry conscripts with a Regular Army squad leader and 2IC) and Romania (about 25 regular Army mountain troops.  Romania had hosted this exercise in 2001.).  Both served in platoons with Canadian platoon 2ICs.


----------



## pbi (11 Apr 2005)

Lawndart:



> PBI, if you're trying to get a rise out of me by comparing my critical comments to those directed against the Airborne after Somalia, it won't work.



No: I wasn't interested in getting a rise out of you-I was trying to show that the tactic you were using was as bankrupt as the slamming of the entire Airborne Regiment for the actions of sickies like Matchee and Brown.



> You, and most of the others on this site have relied on some anecdotes regarding the positive way the CF have been recieved by other forces, usually US. That's fine, but fair is fair, and if you do so, then don't complain when I bring up some negative points, like the one linking a group of reservists to the poisoning of Matt Stopford



Well...it really is a bit more than "_some anecdotes_", as I tried to point out in my earlier post. Against which, you produce the still (IMHO) somewhat murky Stopford situation. The one incident doesn't really outweigh the others, since the Stopford incident can only reflect on a very tiny numbers of the Reservists who have served overseas.



> One of the things I recall, is that it is very unusual for staff from foreign armies to openly criticize visiting forces from an allied power. You'll see the same thing on courses (c'mon, when was the last time you saw a Botswani officer fail a Canadian 6A or JM course, or a Canadian/Panamanian fail a US Ranger course?).



I'm not naive either, and neither are many of the other posters here. I wasn't referring to BS, politically correct "for public consumption" comments that don't mean anything and are just fluff. I wouldn't waste peoples' time with relating crap like that. I'm talking about a much wider range of unsolicited, genuine comment, from Active Army, ARNG, USAR, USMC and USMC(R). Anybody who has been in since before coffee break can tell the difference between BS and genuine professional praise. I'm not saying (nor, as far as I can tell, is anybody else here..) that our Army Reserve doesn't have problems. I lived them from 1974 to 1982 as a Res NCO, from 1986 to 1989 on unit RSS, at Area HQ level and for the last three years firefighting Res problems in a Res CBG HQ. Some of the problems are systemic and still poisonous, but some have been fixed over the years. It is not really all the pathetic, gloom and doom that you seem to believe.



> If that can happen to Regs, then I think it's a little disingenuous to say the least, for us to propogate this myth that CF Reserve troops are superior to the American's.



You missed the point I was trying to make. I was not claiming that our Army Res soldiers are "superior" to the Americans. My point is that, given all of their limitations (almost NONE of which are faced by any US land force reserve, whether Army or USMC), our Res soldiers do pretty well in comparison. That's all.

Cheers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Apr 2005)

There are dinosaurs on both sides of the Reg\ Reserve fence. They will never admit to the benefit each organization provides to the other, no matter what it is. They will continue to slag each other, til their dying breath, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

As far as how our Reserves stack up against someone else? Who cares. Just do the best you can, train as hard as you can, excel in everything you do, then try to do it better. Thirst for knowledge. Be professional. Don't worry about the other guy or the nay sayers. Just have pride in the fact that you gave 125% and you are better for it.


----------



## Acorn (12 Apr 2005)

noneck said:
			
		

> Rod Dearing was probably in Germany with 2 VP



Rod was in 2 VP. He got there in 87-ish, IIRC.

Acorn


----------

