# If I don't get into ROTP.. options...



## Beurling (9 May 2009)

Hello everyone.

I just dropped off the last of my paperwork for ROTP as Logistics Officer in the Navy.  Because it is late in the year, they did say it was a long shot I would make it in, but since I have 2 years of college already completed, there is HOPE!

I do have a couple questions that I forgot to ask at the recruit centre though.

If I do not get ROTP this year, I could join as an NCM (NCI Op or something else of my choosing), and later pursue a career in Logistics.  One of my concerns is... Would I not only have to complete BMQ as an NCM, but also BMOQ when I pursue the officer training?  I'd rather avoid going to basic training twice, even if they are different! :-\

Also, would there be a particular NCM career that would be more suitable if my future goal was logistics?  The recruiter (In Victoria, B.C., btw..) suggested MARS Officer, but I'm not sure I'm quite cut out for that, but it's basically a guarantee to get in if I wanted...

All I'm trying to figure out is if it's worth it to WAIT until I'm accepted into ROTP (most likely for Sept. 2010), or if I should start my career NOW as an NCM so I can quit my worthless day job and start my life finally...  and eventually pursue an officer position.

I'm also going on a Day Sail on May 26th to kind of get a feel for life at sea, but I get the impression I will have to make a decision before that date.

Any suggestions or insights are welcome.

Thank you!


----------



## gcclarke (12 May 2009)

Let's see if I can tackle this one. 

First off, upon joining the regular force as an NCM, you would no long be eligible for ROTP. You can apply for the "University Training Program for NCMs", which is basically the same thing, but for people who are already serving as NCMs. However, There are a limited number of slots, and from what I've been told, competition is rather tough. As well, you are not able to apply until you are at least trade qualified, which will take some time. Search the forums for UTPNCM for more information.

You can, however, still apply for ROTP if you are currently serving in the reserves. Given your situation, I would suggest taking this route if you want to get into uniform ASAP. As for which trade to pick, I'd suggest one of the trades in the logistics branch, rather than something like an NCIOp. Cook, Storesman, Steward, RMS Clerk, something along those lines. You'll be a better LogO eventually if you've done the job of some of your subordinates. 

You would indeed be required to do BMOQ, even if you did complete BMQ. 

As for the idea of going MARS Officer, I presume the recruiter was talking about in the reserve force? Because if they were talking regular force, you're in the same boat of not having a degree, and needing to get into ROTP. I would highly recommend not going reg force MARS if you want to transfer to Logistics. MARS is a trade that is currently rather undermanned, moreso than LogO. And it is rather hard to transfer from one trade that is short people to another that isn't hurting as badly. 

If you do decide to join now as an NCM, or really as any trade other LogO, be forewarned that there is no guarantee that you'll be able to transfer anytime in the near future. If you're dead set upon being a LogO, or any type of officer for that matter, it may be better to just wait. 

But frankly, I wouldn't advise joining the reg force as an NCM if your primary goal is to become an officer. I wouldn't sign on the dotted line unless you feel that you would be happy serving in that trade for the rest of your military career. Two main reasons for this. A) It might just so happen that you'll get in, get all the checks in the boxes, apply for UTPNCM... and not be selected. Perhaps year after year. B) You're likely to annoy many of your compatriots when they realize that the only reason you're there is to spend enough time in to transfer. 

Again, joining the reserves as an NCM is slightly different. You'll get some experience in your field, until that slot for ROTP opens up, and component transfers from reserve to reg are rather common. 

In either case, I suggest you don't let yourself be rushed into any decision. By all means, at least wait till you go on that day sail. Recruiting is an ongoing effort, and even if all the available loggie slots do fill up between now and the end of the month, more will open up later on down the road. Don't let yourself be rushed into a decision that you'll regret. 

And I'd like to stress this again. Don't accept an offer for any trade unless you'd be happy serving in that trade for the rest of your career.


----------



## jmlz87 (14 May 2009)

Beurling

AFAIK, the selection boards for ROTP 09 have met and are finished. With that being said, you can pursue the CEOTP program instead. Also if you want to stick out for ROTP, you're signing up for either RMC Kingston, RMC St-Jean, or Civi University. You are also alotted into a group of Air, Land or Sea Ops/Speciality etc. You won't have a confirmed trade until your first year of school and you pass BMOQ (both IAP/BOTP).

Adding to what gccclarke has said, if you want to go officer, stick it out and apply for LogO under ROTP or CEOTP. I concur also that if you join an undermanned trade, it is extremely difficult to CT over to another.

NCM and Officer are two different worlds. Do you want to do the work, or manage the people doing the work? Managers = Officers, Workers = NCMs.


----------



## Strike (14 May 2009)

jmlz87 said:
			
		

> You are also allotted into a group of Air, Land or Sea Ops/Speciality etc. You won't have a confirmed trade until your first year of school and you pass BMOQ (both IAP/BOTP).



Is that necessarily true considering Log (in the early years) is almost considered a purple trade?  Not really an "ops" trade in the strictest sense.  Kind of sits in the same spot as Int, PAO, Health Care Admin to name a few.

As for any other related officer trades, the only thing that comes to mind is Health Care Admin, although I don't believe they have the same option to pursue a Human Resources specialty.

I am not a Log officer and am just going by what one in the trade has told me so maybe if there is a LogO on the board they can step in?


----------



## chris_log (14 May 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> Is that necessarily true considering Log (in the early years) is almost considered a purple trade?  Not really an "ops" trade in the strictest sense.  Kind of sits in the same spot as Int, PAO, Health Care Admin to name a few.
> 
> As for any other related officer trades, the only thing that comes to mind is Health Care Admin, although I don't believe they have the same option to pursue a Human Resources specialty.
> 
> I am not a Log officer and am just going by what one in the trade has told me so maybe if there is a LogO on the board they can step in?



I believe there are categories for 'Land Support', 'Air Support' etc as well as 'Land Ops' etc. Even under the old system, from day one you, as a log officer, are either land/sea/air. Unlike the log NCM trades, officer's aren't exactly purple in that there are seperate courses for log officers depending on element, unlike the NCM's where most early courses are tri-service. In fact, I would say that NCM's are more purple from day one while log officers 'go purple' (through staff jobs at places like CANOSCOM) later on and are very much 'green' (or blue etc etc) in the early days (i.e. 99.9% of the time a young army log officer is going to go to a battalion, not get posted to an air force base, for example).


----------



## jmlz87 (14 May 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> Is that necessarily true considering Log (in the early years) is almost considered a purple trade?  Not really an "ops" trade in the strictest sense.  Kind of sits in the same spot as Int, PAO, Health Care Admin to name a few.
> 
> As for any other related officer trades, the only thing that comes to mind is Health Care Admin, although I don't believe they have the same option to pursue a Human Resources specialty.
> 
> I am not a Log officer and am just going by what one in the trade has told me so maybe if there is a LogO on the board they can step in?



The acceptance ltrs this year for ROTP had no mention of the actual trade they were going but merely, Land/Sea/Air Ops, Land/Sea/Air Support, as well as Speciality* (MPO, HCA etc.)

Can't comment on the older days how this worked, but they all go to RMC/CiviU first, get their BMOQ done meanwhile in the summer, and then are assigned a trade depending on their performance and evaulation. Can't confirm as I am not the ROTP clk, but I have done some of the processing on that side.


----------



## gcclarke (14 May 2009)

I can confirm some aspect of the "non purplishness" of Log O's. The Logistics Officers and Assistant Logistics Officers posted aboard HMC Ships will always be naval officers. Army and Air Force guys and gals don't get posted in to fill these positions. 

For the NCMs aboard ship in the Logistics Department, the same cannot be said. You will get a mix of Cpls, Sgts, WOs, etc. Wearing a naval uniform in this case will make it more likely that you'll end up on a ship, but it is not a guarantee. 

The only exception of course, is for the Stewards, because only the Navy still has them.


----------



## AlphaQup (14 May 2009)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Let's see if I can tackle this one.
> 
> You can, however, still apply for ROTP if you are currently serving in the reserves. Given your situation, I would suggest taking this route if you want to get into uniform ASAP. As for which trade to pick, I'd suggest one of the trades in the logistics branch, rather than something like an NCIOp. Cook, Storesman, Steward, RMS Clerk, something along those lines. You'll be a better LogO eventually if you've done the job of some of your subordinates.
> 
> ...


Hi gcclarke,

Thanks for taking the time to post that. I applied to the reserves back in January 2009. Having recently done my CFAT and Interview, I was told my score was right for the artillery trade(NCM and Officer). I'm still in university(2 more years left) and you mentioned that getting 'some experience in the field until the ROTP slot opens up' is common. Is it also common for NCM reserve members to transfer to officer reg force after finishing school? 

I've found a local artillery unit that seems quite attractive and I think I can learn a lot there. Would you recommend staying with them until I finish school then transferring reg force as an officer or should I apply for ROTP while doing weekend basic this September? The one thing that I don't find too pleasant about ROTP is the lack of training while school is in session(Sept-Apr) with only the summer months available for training. With the reserves I'm able to get some experience in asap in basic, then SQ, then hopefully a trades course in the summer. If I'm accepted to this local regiment I hope I can stay with them as an NCM for a few years, At least until school is done, possibly longer, because they can teach me much about the Canadian Armed Forces.

I hope all this made sense, what do you think(and others who can help) of my situation?
Edit: I searched and most of the NCM -to Officer component transfers(in the reserves) were not very clear and seemed to focus on high school students going into uni, not already in. As for the RESO program, I was conflicted on it after researching but wasn't too interested. *So far it's down to:*
a) join a reserve unit as an NCM to get training done while in school then apply reg force officer upon completion of school
b) join a reserve unit as an NCM and apply for ROTP before the next selection board meets


----------



## gcclarke (14 May 2009)

AlphaQup said:
			
		

> Hi gcclarke,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to post that. I applied to the reserves back in January 2009. Having recently done my CFAT and Interview, I was told my score was right for the artillery trade(NCM and Officer). I'm still in university(2 more years left) and you mentioned that getting 'some experience in the field until the ROTP slot opens up' is common. Is it also common for NCM reserve members to transfer to officer reg force after finishing school?
> 
> ...




Yes, I would highly recommend joining the reserves as an NCM while you finish up school, before applying as a Direct Entry Officer (DEO). Your case is slightly different than that of the original poster's, as you would be continuing to go to school, paying most of your way through it, as you should be able to get some compensation through the reserves for your education related expenses (I believe it's 50% but not positive).

And yes, it is extremely common for people to join the reserves as an NCM (Or an officer), and then become a reg force officer upon graduation. This has, in my humble opinion, two main benefits.

It gives you a chance to try out the job. You may discover over the next couple years that perhaps the artillery isn't for you. So, once you graduate you can sign up as something else. MARS Officer? Pilot? Infantry? Public Affairs? Or, you may decide that being an officer isn't your best fit, and can make the enlightened choice to do a component transfer to reg force artillery. Or, you might figure out that the original plan is probably going to work out, and follow through. Or maybe you'll even figure out that the military itself isn't your best fit. Or maybe you would want to stay in the reserves. In any case, it's a chance to "try it on before you buy it."

And of course, no matter what happens, you'll exit with a fair bit of useful experience under your belt. It may be directly related to your future career, or it may be tangentially related. But every bit helps.

And, of course, the above mentioned education benefits don't hurt either. 

While going ROTP at this point isn't a bad option, with 2 years under your belt, if you feel that you can afford to cover the education expenses in the meantime, I would recommend joining the reserves and then going DEO after you graduate.


----------



## AlphaQup (14 May 2009)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Yes, I would highly recommend joining the reserves as an NCM while you finish up school, before applying as a Direct Entry Officer (DEO). Your case is slightly different than that of the original poster's, as you would be continuing to go to school, paying most of your way through it, as you should be able to get some compensation through the reserves for your education related expenses (I believe it's 50% but not positive).
> 
> And yes, it is extremely common for people to join the reserves as an NCM (Or an officer), and then become a reg force officer upon graduation. This has, in my humble opinion, two main benefits.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the help and thoughtful input, it's something to think about. One of the things that stood out at the CFRC was the same thing you mentioned: _try it on before you buy it_, in order to see if the Canadian Armed Forces and I are compatible. I will definitely keep the alternatives you suggested in mind. For now I think I'll stick to the reserves as an NCM and see where it takes me while giving it my all.


----------



## Beurling (16 May 2009)

Thanks so much gcclarke... you've been extremely helpful!! Exactly the answer I was hoping for.

I will indeed ask about Reserves during my interview, especially if my ROTP is not accepted, which is the most likely outcome.  

And much like AlphaQup, I too have 2 years left, but was hoping for the military to pay for it... but if the Reserves help to pay for it, I could always do that, and go DEO LogO upon completion.

My whole dilemma was that of: "Do I want to settle for NCM if I really want to become an officer?", and you've really helped with that.  And I really won't be able to answer that until I experience it first hand, whether that be on the day sail, or in the reserves if that's the way I go.

Thanks to everyone for their posts, much appreciated.


----------



## gcclarke (17 May 2009)

Beurling said:
			
		

> Thanks so much gcclarke... you've been extremely helpful!! Exactly the answer I was hoping for.
> 
> I will indeed ask about Reserves during my interview, especially if my ROTP is not accepted, which is the most likely outcome.
> 
> ...



You're welcome. 

And I will re-emphasize this point  for anyone else who may read this post in the future. Please, do not sign up for a  the reg force in a trade that do not you would be happy in for the rest of your CF career. Because, no matter what anyone else tells you, there is no guarantee that you will be able to transfer out of it. This goes for people who are hell-bent on going from NCI Op to SAR Tech, and people who are hell-bent on going from [Insert random NCM Trade here] to [Insert Random Officer Trade here]. If that's your plan, I think you're best off going reserve force for the time being.

That having been said, if you decide to join up as a reservist, in an NCM Log trade, I hardly think anyone would be thinking that you're "settling" for an NCM. You're trying out the job of someone who would eventually be under your command. This is always a good thing. 

And I suppose that I should give a bit of a disclaimer here. This isn't the route that I took. I only decided that I wanted to join the Forces with a year left of my degree. So I finished that degree and joined up. I happened to get lucky, having chosen a trade that was rather compatible with my personality / skill set. Some people may not be so lucky. This isn't necessarily their fault. You cannot blame someone for making a sub-optimal choice, when they did not have the full set of data to analyze at the time the decision needed to be made.


----------

