# 58 dead 546 wounded / injured in Las Vegas shooting 1 Oct 2017



## jollyjacktar (2 Oct 2017)

Horrific shooting in Las Vegas.  The world has gone mad.



> A Nevada sheriff says the death toll has climbed to 50 in the attack on a Las Vegas concert Sunday, making it the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history.
> 
> Clark County Sheriff Joseph Lombardo says more than 200 people were wounded at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival on the Strip.
> 
> ...



Titled updated with number of killed and wounded. - mm


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## EpicBeardedMan (2 Oct 2017)

This is the initial radio traffic for the incident, pretty harrowing.

https://soundcloud.com/alertpage-1/initial-radio-traffic-las-vegasnv


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2017)

This from the Las Vegas police - full statement also attached ...


> The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department identified the lone suspect involved in the late-night mass shooting on the Las Vegas Strip as 64-year-old, Stephen Craig Paddock, a white male from Mesquite, Nevada.
> 
> Paddock opened fire on a crowd of more than 22,000 concert-goers from his hotel room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel on Sunday evening at approximately 10:08 p.m. The victims were across the street attending the Route 91 Harvest Festival concert when bullets rang out. LVMPD SWAT responded to the call, breached the hotel room and found the suspect dead.
> 
> The Clark County Fire Department estimated that approximately 406 people were transported to area hospitals and 50 are dead following Sunday evening’s shooting.  Among the dead is an LVMPD officer who was off-duty at the time. His name is being withheld pending notification of next of kin. There were also two on-duty officers injured, one of whom was upgraded recently from critical to stable condition. The other sustained non-life threatening wounds ...


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## tomahawk6 (2 Oct 2017)

What a crazy world this is.His girl friend is an employee at the hotel and may have assisted him in stashing his weapons in the hotel room. Time will tell. The area trauma centers must have been severely taxed as well.Prayers out for the injured and deceased.


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## Halifax Tar (2 Oct 2017)

So sad.  What drives people to such evil acts ?


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## Rifleman62 (2 Oct 2017)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html

*ISIS claims responsibility.* (But they would wouldn't they?)


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html
> 
> *ISIS claims responsibility.* (But they would wouldn't they?)


Interesting, indeed - especially in light of no such claim on the Edmonton attack as of this post.

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe following up on previous threats?

_*"ISIS propaganda video featuring clips of Las Vegas Strip viewed as ‘credible’ threat"*_ (May 2017)
_*"Islamic State Targets San Francisco and Las Vegas in New Video"*_ (June 2016)


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## Jarnhamar (2 Oct 2017)

What a terrible and sinister thing.  I heard around work the shooter may have used an M240 machinegun, which might account for the death and injured toll.

I'm not sure if it's better to hope if the shooter was captured so he can spend the rest of his life in prison or that he simply shot and killed and his story never told.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Oct 2017)

He was shooting into a crowd of 22,000 apparently, so not hard to miss and at an angle to generate grievous wounds. As for what and why, I wait, the first 48 hrs is always full of misinformation.


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## jollyjacktar (2 Oct 2017)

Canadian among the dead

Death toll rises to 58


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> ... the first 48 hrs is always full of misinformation.


Yup ...


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/las-vegas-shooting-live-casino-music-festival-shooters-gunmen-white-male-stephen-paddock-mandalay-a7977916.html
> 
> *ISIS claims responsibility.* (But they would wouldn't they?)


And counterpoint ...
_*"Las Vegas shooting: FBI says massacre has no connection to terrorism after Isis claims responsibility"*_
... with a reminder from @DarthPutinKGB attached


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## Rifleman62 (2 Oct 2017)

Cas equate to taking a Cdn Inf Bn out of the ORBAT. 

Any info on the wpns used?


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## George Wallace (2 Oct 2017)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Cas equate to taking a Cdn Inf Bn out of the ORBAT.
> 
> Any info on the wpns used?



Watching the videos, there are too many rounds being fired to be a 30 rd mag......Sounds more like a belt fed MG.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-1.4316121

http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/stephen-paddock-las-vegas-route-91-mandalay-bay-shooting-shooter-gunman-suspect-photos-motive/


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## jollyjacktar (2 Oct 2017)

Why, why, why would this bastard do this?  Very upsetting to watch the videos.


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## PuckChaser (2 Oct 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Watching the videos, there are too many rounds being fired to be a 30 rd mag......Sounds more like a belt fed MG.



Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation. 

And for something unrelated to gun speculation, the tolerate Democrats of America are out in full force with this gem:

https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1


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## Retired AF Guy (2 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.



Just caught part of a news update on Sirius Radio and if I heard it correctly, the police spokesman mentioned that both 5.56 and 7.62 mm weapons being used. Also, something about an automatic weapon being used and it was being investigated whether a fill auto weapon was used or one that had being modified for full auto. Unfortunately, the spokesman answers came in loud and clear, but the questions were garbled.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ... Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation ...


 :nod:


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## George Wallace (2 Oct 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> PuckChaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really?  A question was asked and a possible answer was given.  Have we been invaded by the Antifa?


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## brihard (2 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Did you count all the rounds? Are you counting all the echos and snaps that aren't original gunshots? Very easy for this have been an illegally modified AR-15 variant that's firing in automatic. In the CBC video there's also a distinctive pitch change from something that sounds like a 5.56mm rifle to something more like a 7.62mm rifle. Lets not contribute to the panic and misinformation.
> 
> And for something unrelated to gun speculation, the tolerate Democrats of America are out in full force with this gem:
> 
> https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/914885815901319168/photo/1



Police sources have apparently confirmed both 5.56 and .308. The dude had an assload of rifles in there, at least some of them clearly capable of fully automatic fire. I hardly think speculating on these details as they emerge contributes to 'panic', and it's only 'misinformation' is speculation is presented as definite fact, which it was not.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Oct 2017)

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/las-vegas-shooting-cbs-hayley-geftman-gold-2017-10
Glad CBS fired her. What a piece of garbage.


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## PuckChaser (2 Oct 2017)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Police sources have apparently confirmed both 5.56 and .308. The dude had an assload of rifles in there, at least some of them clearly capable of fully automatic fire. I hardly think speculating on these details as they emerge contributes to 'panic', and it's only 'misinformation' is speculation is presented as definite fact, which it was not.



There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found. That term is only being used by those pushing an immediate counter-gun agenda. There are reports that 2 devices, likely "bump stocks" were found to be able to convert semi-automatic AR-15s and AK-47s to automatic fire. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html Bump stock demonstration video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4

Stating that someone had access to, and used a belt fed machine gun serves nothing but to further scare an already scared public, and push an agenda. Its hyperbole at its finest. In my 15 years in the CAF firing all sorts of NATO and Soviet-bloc weapons, nothing in the audio suggests to me "belt-fed machine gun". There's magazine/weapons swap time inbetween bursts, and distinct changes in audio from caliber changes.


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## Haggis (2 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found.



Based on my interpretation of the audio, my money would be on a drum fed weapon.  "Belt-fed"/"drum-fed" means the same to the media as "LAV" means "tank"


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## brihard (2 Oct 2017)

Police have now found more guns in a property associated with the shooter, and have found ammonium nitrate in his car... The rabbit hole goes deeper...


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## mariomike (2 Oct 2017)

I spent most of my career working an MCI bus, but we never dreamed of anything like this.

The worst mass-shooting in the history of the city was 2 killed and 22 injured. That was after I retired, and the record still stands.

We used to stage and wait for the Emergency Task Force. But, the Rescue Task Force model is the way they operate now. 
They used it last night in Las Vegas.


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## FJAG (3 Oct 2017)

At the moment, the Daily Mail has one of the better coverages of this incident.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942856/Las-Vegas-gunman-SIXTEEN-guns-TEN-suitcases.html

 :cheers:


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## EpicBeardedMan (3 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's been no credible media sources stating a "belt fed machine gun" was found. That term is only being used by those pushing an immediate counter-gun agenda. There are reports that 2 devices, likely "bump stocks" were found to be able to convert semi-automatic AR-15s and AK-47s to automatic fire. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/vegas-shooters-weapons-cache-included-devices-enabling-automatic-gunfire-report-says.html Bump stock demonstration video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gWrthH2OK4
> 
> Stating that someone had access to, and used a belt fed machine gun serves nothing but to further scare an already scared public, and push an agenda. Its hyperbole at its finest. In my 15 years in the CAF firing all sorts of NATO and Soviet-bloc weapons, nothing in the audio suggests to me "belt-fed machine gun". There's magazine/weapons swap time inbetween bursts, and distinct changes in audio from caliber changes.



Definitely wasn't a belt fed machine gun, you can see exactly when he reloads or grabs a new weapon every time. There's a consistent lull every time the shooting stops then starts back up again.


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## tomahawk6 (3 Oct 2017)

It appears that the shooter used a bump stock to increase the rate of fire.

http://www.slidefire.com


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

More on ISIS's claim of responsibility ...


> *ISIS Claims Attack At Las Vegas Music Festival, Says ‎Attacker Converted To Islam A Few Months Ago*
> October 02, 2017
> 
> On October 2, 2017, the Islamic State (ISIS) news agency A'maq claimed responsibility for the previous evening's deadly shooting attack at a country music festival in Las Vegas, in which over 50 people were killed and several hundred wounded.
> ...


_
... and from MSM (remembering the usual "initial reports" caveats):

*"3 Canadians dead, 5 injured, 1 missing in Las Vegas"* (CTV)
*"Alberta mother of 4 killed in Las Vegas mass shooting"* (CBC)
*"2 people from Sask. wounded in Las Vegas mass shooting, says relative"* (CBC)
*"Facebook And Google Still Have A 'Fake News' Problem, Las Vegas Shooting Reveals"* (Forbes)
*"Las Vegas shooting: Site with White House press credentials falsely brands Trump foe as gunman"* (globalnews.ca)
_


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

... aaaaaaaaaand a caveat on the ISIS claim:


> *ISIS Takes Credit For A Lot Of Mass Shootings. You Shouldn’t Always Believe Them*
> Sarah Sicard, Task & Purpose blog, October 2, 2017
> 
> On the evening of Oct. 1, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock opened fire on the Route 91 Harvest country music festival from a room in the Mandalay Bay hotel in Las Vegas. The mass shooting, the worst in modern U.S. history, left at least 58 people dead and more than half a thousand injured. It was an act that President Donald Trump called “an act of pure evil.”
> ...


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## jollyjacktar (3 Oct 2017)

They would probably claim Hitler or even the iceberg that sank the Titanic if they could.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

THAT didn't take long ...
_*"Alex Jones: Deep State Behind Las Vegas Attack"*_


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## tomahawk6 (3 Oct 2017)

British troops from 1st Queens Dragoon Guards on holiday in Vegas rushed to render aid. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942216/British-troops-holiday-Las-Vegas-helped-wounded.html?ITO=1490

Off duty British troops on holiday in Las Vegas rushed to help the wounded after today's massacre, it has been revealed.
The soldiers - from the 1st Queen's Dragoon Guards - administered emergency first aid to the injured after a lone-wolf gunman unleashed thousands of rounds of ammunition onto a music festival killing at least 58 people and injuring hundreds.


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2017)

Firefighter Started CPR on a Las Vegas Shooting Victim, Then Got Shot in the Chest.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/firefighter-was-performing-cpr-on-las-vegas-victim-when-he-was-shot

Paramedic Recalls ‘Agonizing’ Decisions He Had to Make While Rescuing People in Las Vegas Shooting
http://people.com/crime/las-vegas-shooting-paramedic-recalls-agonizing-decisions/

Group of Paramedics with bullet resistant vests & ballistic helmets in Las Vegas. 
https://media.metrolatam.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-tiroteio.jpg

Local agencies review emergency protocol after Vegas massacre
http://nbc24.com/news/local/local-agencies-review-emergency-protocol-after-vegas-massacre



The Las Vegas massacre dominates Tuesday's front pages around the world.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Oct 2017)

The bump stock falls into a bit of a gray zone, I suspect BATF will suggest rewording of the regs to ban them and the Trump Administration will agree with support from the NRA. They could adopt the Canadian wording that does ban them. 

I suspect that all large open air events in the US will have police snipers stationed above for some time.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> ... I suspect BATF will suggest rewording of the regs to ban them and the Trump Administration will agree with support from the NRA ...


I'm about 50-50 on the orange bit, but I'd be mighty surprised if the bit in yellow happened - although the NRA _*did*_ support some ownership limits on people with mental health issues before POTUS45 pulled said regs earlier this year.


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I'm about 50-50 on the orange bit, but I'd be mighty surprised if the bit in yellow happened - although the NRA _*did*_ support some ownership limits on people with mental health issues before POTUS45 pulled said regs earlier this year.



The NRA in today's news,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=nra+trump&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F2%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A10%2F3%2F2017&tbm=


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## Jarnhamar (3 Oct 2017)

It's sad how desperately people want this to fit their own narrative.  Lots of grief tourism as well.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (3 Oct 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's sad how desperately people want this to fit their own narrative.  Lots of grief tourism as well.



I agree. Both pro-gun and anti-gun camps seemed to jump to the defence (as always with these events) to defend their views. Undoubtedly, the conversation needs to be on answering the pressing question- why are there so many mass shootings in the US? The answer is invariably complex and would undoubtedly incorporate elements of mental health, gun control, and a general culture shift.


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lots of grief tourism as well.



I wonder if Las Vegas will experience something similar, on a lesser scale, to New York City in 2001?

After 9/11, approximately 9,000 grief counselors descended on NYC.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Oct 2017)

Most mass shooting are a fairly recent phenomenon as well, problem there is that it might indicate that current social norms in education and parenting might be incorrect, which affects many rice bowels. That being said, nothing in this case appears to be similar to other instances. This one is closer to terrorism. Perhaps forfeiture of all the estate, wiping of name from records and scattering of ashes into toxic waste might be standard. Basically do everything to destroy their legacy and their previous existence. If people know that might be the end result, any glory or fame is lost helping to reduce that as a motivator.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> ... The answer is invariably complex and would undoubtedly incorporate elements of mental health, gun control, and a general culture shift.


Well put.  This is why I agree with many of those who say, "the first week's not the best time to discuss solutions while the wound is still fresh."  A few say that as a cop-out, but figuring out real solutions needs a _*lot*_ of issue wrestling based on the whole picture, not one huge, tragic incident.


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> ... problem there is that it might indicate that current social norms in education and parenting might be incorrect, which affects many rice bowels ...





			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> ... forfeiture of all the estate, wiping of name from records and scattering of ashes into toxic waste might be standard. Basically do everything to destroy their legacy and their previous existence. If people know that might be the end result, any glory or fame is lost helping to reduce that as a motivator.


Methinks that if mental illness is involved, depending on the illness, even _*that*_ won't make a difference ...


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Oct 2017)

Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition. Clearly he was a capable individual, unless something had change shortly before. His lack of empathy and likely sense of self importance might be reasons for this event. Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.


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## The Bread Guy (3 Oct 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition.


You're right - I should qualify re:  "depending on the mental illness involved".   I was just touching on the fact that if someone has their heart/mind pathologically set on destroying themselves/others, erasing their memory from the face of the earth still wouldn't stop them.


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.


I like that idea.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Oct 2017)

I know some people who were just coming back from Disney in California as this happened.

They said that every entrance way was guarded, and had them passing through bag checks etc. They felt totally safe in a crowded facility with tens of thousands of people.

Las Vegas is a similar 'theme park' and may - like other big venues - may need to move to that level of security one day.


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## Brad Sallows (3 Oct 2017)

>Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason. 

Sometimes it's easier to stick with what we already have: "run amok".


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## PuckChaser (3 Oct 2017)

Why do we need a new term? Someone killing people without religious, political or racial agenda/views is a murderer. Are we just making up a term because we don't want to offend terrorists for being called terrorists? Or because unfortunately some people cannot delink the term terrorist for Islam?


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## Eaglelord17 (3 Oct 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Mental illness does not mean people are unaware or incapable, it's a broad definition. Clearly he was a capable individual, unless something had change shortly before. His lack of empathy and likely sense of self importance might be reasons for this event. Clearly he put some planning into it. Which is why I would suggest a new definition of "Singular Terrorism" for someone not acting with a religious, cultural or politically motivated reason.



They have a term for it, and it is called being a Murdering Coward.

No need to reinvent the wheel for what things are called, and instead just call a spade a spade. Instead of calling him a shooter, the media should be calling him a murderer. Terrorist as far as I am concerned, is just more or less a buzzword which people often apply incorrectly because we have a irrational fear of the word, much as the term 'hate crime' is often passed around the same way. Those words are based around motives, which can be very hard to determine. Murder on the other hand is pretty straight cut, as you simply have to kill someone intentionally to be a murderer.


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2017)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Sometimes it's easier to stick with what we already have: "run amok".



"Shooting spree" still works for me. That's the term I remember they used for the "Texas Tower Sniper".


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## Bird_Gunner45 (3 Oct 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Why do we need a new term? Someone killing people without religious, political or racial agenda/views is a murderer. Are we just making up a term because we don't want to offend terrorists for being called terrorists? Or because unfortunately some people cannot delink the term terrorist for Islam?



You're right that the defiintion of terrorism is, "The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals". That said, we can't say if he's a murderer or a terrorist until we know the motive, which seems to be the question of the hour. Clearly, something made him commit a premeditated attack on this concert. It'll be interesting to see what that something was.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (3 Oct 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well put.  This is why I agree with many of those who say, "the first week's not the best time to discuss solutions while the wound is still fresh."  A few say that as a cop-out, but figuring out real solutions needs a _*lot*_ of issue wrestling based on the whole picture, not one huge, tragic incident.



I disagree with the needing to have a week to heal for one simple reason- Las Vegas is simply another horrific incident in the long line of horrific incidents which has plagued the US. Charleston, Sandy Hook, Orlando, San Bernardino, Binghamton immigrant shootings, Virginia Tech, Columbine and others are not "one offs" like was initially thought after the columbine shootings. They're a chronic blight on the US nation. US citizens should be incensed that this continues to happen and more incenced that their leaders of both political stripes refuse to confront the real issues as to "why" this continues to occur. No one should be "shocked" this happened based on the history of gun violence. No one should really even be surprised. That's not to lesson the horrific nature of the act by any means. It's just the reality that in 4-12 months there'll be another mass shooting followed by another one, etc, etc, etc, unless someone actually shows the morale courage and intestinal fortitude to confront the real problems.

The reality is that mass shootings are a reality in the US that largely dont exist elsewhere and certainly not to the extent that they do in the US. According to the FBI there have been an average of 16.4 mass shootings in the US each year from 2007 to present (mass shooting being defined as an event with more than 4 injuries related to the shooting). Politicians and leaders in the US need to say "enough is enough" and put real, non-partisan, thought, discussion, and blood into confronting the problem that faces them instead of doing the partisan grand standing that followed the other mass shootings listed above.  If the politicians need to be motivated to push for change they should watch "Newtown" on netflix about Sandy Hook.


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## Retired AF Guy (3 Oct 2017)

Write-up on Stephen Paddock. It will be interesting to see as the authorities gather miore information on him.



> Who is Stephen Paddock? Las Vegas gunman's father was 'psychopathic' bank robber on FBI most-wanted list
> 
> Before he opened fire late Sunday, the gunman Stephen Paddock lived a quiet life for years in a small town outside Las Vegas
> 
> ...



 Article Link


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## Cloud Cover (4 Oct 2017)

*CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'*
Interesting... 

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act...
 http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/02/top-cbs-lawyer-no-sympathy-for-vegas-vics-probably-republicans.html

*CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'*

CBS has parted ways with one of the company’s top lawyers after she said she was “not even sympathetic” to victims of the Las Vegas shooting because “country music fans often are Republican,” when discussing the mass shooting that unfolded in Las Vegas late Sunday night. 

Monday night she issued a statement of apology. 

Hayley Geftman-Gold, the network's now-former vice president and senior counsel, said, “Earlier today I posted an indefensible post in a Facebook discussion thread concerning the tragic Las Vegas shooting, a statement I sincerely regret. I am deeply sorry for diminishing the significance of every life affected by Stephen Paddock’s terrorism last night and for the pain my words have inflicted on the loved ones of the victims. My shameful comments do not reflect the beliefs of my former employer, colleagues, family, and friends. Nor do they reflect my actual beliefs — this senseless violence warrants the deepest empathy. I understand and accept all consequences that my words have incurred.”


A CBS spokeswoman told Fox News that Geftman-Gold, “who was with us for approximately one year, violated the standards of our company and is no longer an employee of CBS. Her views as expressed on social media are deeply unacceptable to all of us at CBS. Our hearts go out to the victims in Las Vegas and their families.”

Geftman-Gold took to Facebook after a gunman opened fire at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival in Las Vegas, killing at least 59 people and sending more than 510 others to hospitals.

“If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that Repugs [sic] will ever do the right thing,” Geftman-Gold wrote in a now-deleted message that was first reported and captured by The Daily Caller.

Geftman-Gold continued: “I’m actually not even sympathetic bc [sic] country music fans often are Republican gun toters [sic].”

Geftman-Gold is presumably referring to Sandy Hook, which occurred in Newtown, Conn. back in 2012. A 20-year-old gunman, Adam Lanza, killed 20 children and six adults during the tragic event that sparked intense political debates regarding gun control.

Her attorney, Carrie A. Goldberg, responded: “In the last few hours my client, her family and friends have been bombarded by online death unimaginable in quantity and detail. We beg people to show love and support to survivors and loved ones — in Las Vegas and their own lives — instead of creating more violence.”

Geftman-Gold did not work directly with the network’s news division. According to her LinkedIn bio, Geftman-Gold worked at CBS since September 2016 and graduated from the prestigious Columbia University law school in 2000.

Brian Flood covers the media for Fox News.


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## mariomike (4 Oct 2017)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'



See Reply #20.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/126688/post-1505176.html#msg1505176


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## George Wallace (4 Oct 2017)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I know some people who were just coming back from Disney in California as this happened.
> 
> They said that every entrance way was guarded, and had them passing through bag checks etc. They felt totally safe in a crowded facility with tens of thousands of people.
> 
> Las Vegas is a similar 'theme park' and may - like other big venues - may need to move to that level of security one day.



I imagine similar precautions were taken at this venue.  Unfortunately, the shooter was outside the venue shooting in.


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## mariomike (4 Oct 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the shooter was outside the venue shooting in.



Survivors of the massacre described it "like shooting fish in a barrel".
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22las+vegas%22+%22fish+in+a+barrel%22&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A10%2F1%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=

NYPD Will Train Hotel Workers To Spot Weapons, Suspicious Behavior In Wake Of Las Vegas Shooting
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/10/04/nypd-hotel-training/

Unless you open all the guest's bags it may not work.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/the-gear-network/10-covert-tactical-gun-case-options/

The International Association of Firefighters says 15 off-duty Firefighters were shot in Las Vegas
http://www.firehouse.com/news/12372281/iaff-says-15-off-duty-firefighters-shot-in-las-vegas-mandalay-bay-shooting-firefighter-news

Number of people living in Nevada (2016): 2,940,058 ( Does not include visitors. )
Number of Level 1 Trauma Centers in Nevada: 1
https://khn.org/news/las-vegas-tragedy-prompts-examination-of-hospitals-capacity-to-treat-victims/

Washington DC's plan to handle a major emergency following Las Vegas shooting.
http://wjla.com/news/local/dcs-plan-to-handle-a-major-emergency-following-las-vegas-shooting

Fate Of Vegas Shooter's Sniper's 'Nest': "The Room Disappears"


----------



## tomahawk6 (7 Oct 2017)

Accounts by British troopers of trying to help the wounded as bullets flew. I hope these soldiers get some award for their heroism under fire.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/6-british-soldiers-jumped-in-to-help-strip-shooting-victims-on-sunday/

British Troopers Ross Woodward, Chris May and Stuart Finlay planned on a night of drinking and gambling in Las Vegas to blow off some steam following six weeks of rigorous training alongside their American counterparts at Fort Irwin, California.
The trio — all members of the 1st The Queen’s Dragoon Guards — paused for a moment when they heard the sound of gunfire echoing down the Strip on Sunday.


----------



## mariomike (7 Oct 2017)

From what I have read, 16 Rescue Task Forces were deployed. Each RTF consisted of four to six police officers, who created a perimeter around three paramedics. The paramedics treated and transported the wounded to ambulances under the blanket of safety those police officers provided, moving in unison with police from patient to patient.

Complicating matters was people with gunshot wounds showing up at various hotels. The calls were dispatched as a report of a shooter at each hotel. The calls initially generated more than 30 different possible shootings along the Las Vegas strip.

With people scattering into hotels, to the airport tarmac, and into neighbourhoods, the response area was stretched to about a mile. 

Some trampling injuries resulted in the stampede.

In some cases, uninjured people piled on top of the wounded who had been loaded into pick-up trucks. 
In one case, ten people ( some wounded ) were crammed into a compact car.

RTF training has been focused on active shooters at ground level, not firing from an elevated position. 

In the city where I live, the optimal Rescue Task Force, with police protection, to active shooter incidents is one paramedic supervisor, two paramedics and four firefighters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2017)

CNN demonstrates how a bump stock works. (Apparently a bunch of us here own a bump stock too?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMk9ZGseUY

This _has_ to be a hoax. CNN can't be this F-ed up. But if not bravo to them for the addition of an M203, silencer and ACOG. They probably couldn't figure out how to add a bayonet to it.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Oct 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> CNN demonstrates how a bump stock works. (Apparently a bunch of us here own a bump stock too?)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMk9ZGseUY
> 
> This _has_ to be a hoax. CNN can't be this F-ed up. But if not bravo to them for the addition of an M203, silencer and ACOG. They probably couldn't figure out how to add a bayonet to it.



The follow on video after that linked video was, however, very informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oaRAgdslE


----------



## MilEME09 (8 Oct 2017)

Well after talking with a coworker who was there, combined with the news reports, despite how bad it was, it sounds like it could of been a lot worse, thousands more rounds were found in the hotel room, and frankly it sounds like the guy was a poor shot but given the size of the crowd hitting people was going to happen regardless.


----------



## mariomike (8 Oct 2017)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Well after talking with a coworker who was there, combined with the news reports, despite how bad it was, it sounds like it could of been a lot worse, thousands more rounds were found in the hotel room, and frankly it sounds like the guy was a poor shot but given the size of the crowd hitting people was going to happen regardless.



Survivors of the massacre described it like shooting fish in a barrel.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=las+vegas+%22fish+in+a+barrel%22&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=yzPaWdSCMs7e8AfC06eADA&gws_rd=ssl


----------



## a_majoor (9 Oct 2017)

Mark Styen weighs in with a possible motive:

https://www.steynonline.com/8162/theory-of-the-case



> *Theory of the Case*
> by Mark Steyn
> Steyn on Fox
> October 6, 2017
> ...


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Oct 2017)

Paddock was as the song goes a Nowhere Man.

"Nowhere Man"

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Nowhere Man, don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all till somebody else lends you a hand

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's a real Nowhere Man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

The Beatles circa 1965


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Oct 2017)

NRA opposes full ban of bump stocks.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nra-bump-stocks-1.4346367


----------



## FJAG (9 Oct 2017)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> NRA opposes full ban of bump stocks.  http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nra-bump-stocks-1.4346367



Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.

What was I thinking?

 :evilrifle:


----------



## Jed (9 Oct 2017)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.
> 
> What was I thinking?
> 
> :evilrifle:



It's probably a case of if you give an inch to the Gun Grabbers they will take a mile. Just like in Canada. People have an irrational fear of the Scary Black Gun.


----------



## brihard (10 Oct 2017)

Jed said:
			
		

> It's probably a case of if you give an inch to the Gun Grabbers they will take a mile. Just like in Canada. People have an irrational fear of the Scary Black Gun.



I believe the case against the bump stock has made itself.


----------



## mariomike (10 Oct 2017)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Silly me. For a second there I thought you said that the "NRA proposes full ban of bump stocks.
> 
> What was I thinking?
> 
> :evilrifle:



Apparently, they are "selling like hotcakes". 
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&q=bump+stock+%22selling+like+hotcakes%22&oq=bump+stock+%22selling+like+hotcakes%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...7930.23050.0.23641.26.26.0.0.0.0.368.3904.0j21j2j1.24.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.17.2919...0j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j33i21k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.ff594VKpEcE


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2017)

Well they are still asking for a full review https://www.nraila.org/articles/20171005/nras-wayne-lapierre-and-chris-cox-issue-joint-statement


----------



## mariomike (11 Oct 2017)

OCT. 10, 2017 

Shift in Las Vegas Timeline Raises Questions About Police Response
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/10/us/shift-in-las-vegas-timeline-raises-questions-about-police-response.html

Because investigators are relying on recorded digital information, rather than witnesses, I find it somewhat surprising there is still so much discrepancy over the timeline.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Oct 2017)

When you consider the difference in locations of the shooter and his victims, plus the mayhem at the site, at night. I am impressed how quickly the figured it out.


----------



## mariomike (18 Oct 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I am impressed how quickly the figured it out.



Did they? I am referring to the timeline only. Not any possible motive(s).

MGM Resorts, which owns Mandalay Bay, contested the police department’s announcement in a statement, saying that the company “cannot be certain about the most recent timeline” and that “what is currently being expressed may not be accurate.” 

At the most recent news conference, the sheriff said repeatedly that information about the case would change as the investigation continued.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Oct 2017)

Timelines are wonky, but their response to a complex situation was likely better than many police forces would have been.


----------



## mariomike (18 Oct 2017)

It reminded me of the Texas sniper. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Bc3AnAUGA

They never really figured out the "why" part. But, the two City of Austin patrol officers who finally blew him away were very brave. This was before SWAT.

The Las Vegas sniper was older than I am, so he likely remembered it too. 

The response in LV is still under review.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22las+vegas%22+police+response&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=WYHnWfffDMzM8gfc3Z_oCA&gws_rd=ssl


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (6 Nov 2017)

Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838


----------



## Jed (6 Nov 2017)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838


Shockingly, you miss the whole point again. The problem is with the Aholes pulling the trigger. Not the implement.


----------



## mariomike (6 Nov 2017)

Jed said:
			
		

> The problem is with the Aholes pulling the trigger.



The president explained it this way, "We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries."

America is now long past the point where if someone wants to talk about 'the massacre', you need to have them stop and specify which one.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Nov 2017)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary (despite mountains of evidence and counter-intuitive arguments) will be when it's one of their families caught up in this horses*&t
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/defenceless-people-26-shot-dead-at-texas-church-1.3664838


Your bias is showing again. The alleged gunman was legally not able to pass a background check to own firearms because of his bad conduct discharge and domestic violence conviction. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws or something...


----------



## Loachman (6 Nov 2017)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle.



Would you feel any better if he used a pump-action shotgun, rammed a rented truck through the crowd as they flooded out after the service, or barricaded the doors and lobbed Molotov cocktails through the windows?

Out of at least 300 million firearms in private hands in the US, at least 299 million were _not_ used to commit that crime.

The problem lies _not_ with the particular implement chosen to commit the crime, but with the person who chose to commit it, planned to commit it, and ultimately committed it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Nov 2017)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Shockingly, another mass shooting with a semi-automatic rifle. At this point, the only way that the gun lobby will be convinced that some restrictions are necessary



What would you suggest for restrictions?


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (6 Nov 2017)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Would you feel any better if he used a pump-action shotgun, rammed a rented truck through the crowd as they flooded out after the service, or barricaded the doors and lobbed Molotov cocktails through the windows?
> 
> Out of at least 300 million firearms in private hands in the US, at least 299 million were _not_ used to commit that crime.
> 
> The problem lies _not_ with the particular implement chosen to commit the crime, but with the person who chose to commit it, planned to commit it, and ultimately committed it.



I have previously shown numerous statistics that show that the instrument does matter. The terrorist attack in New York killed 8 with a truck. If he had a semi-automatic rifle he could have killed 26, like this idiot did, or 58 like the last one. Your argument absolutely does not hold up under any scrutiny.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (6 Nov 2017)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Your bias is showing again. The alleged gunman was legally not able to pass a background check to own firearms because of his bad conduct discharge and domestic violence conviction. It's almost like criminals don't follow laws or something...



My bias against reading about mass shootings in the US constantly and thinking that some actual action should be taken to include (but not solely) elements of gun control? You got me. 

The "Criminals don't follow laws" is a poor argument. In Australia, where there is high gun control, semi-automatic rifles are so expensive that criminals have had to resort to sharing them. In the US, where they are plentiful, they are also cheap. And there is little control past the initial purchase, including requirements for proper storage, etc.


----------



## Loachman (6 Nov 2017)

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/sharpshooting-plumber-fired-shot-that-took-down-texas-church-gunman/

Sharpshooting plumber fired shot that took down Texas church gunman

By Yaron Steinbuch   November 6, 2017 | 8:28am | Updated

The man hailed as a hero for confronting the Texas mass shooter during his rampage is a sharpshooting plumber with no military background - who hit the gunman through a gap in his body armor, according to a report.

Stephen Willeford managed to shoot Devin Kelley before jumping in another man’s truck and chasing him down, the Daily Mail reported.

Kelley blew himself away after wiping out in his SUV, according to Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt.

Texas Department of Public Safety chief Freeman Martin said Willeford “grabbed his rifle and engaged the suspect” after Kelley left the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he opened fire with an assault rifle and killed 26 people.

An area resident told the paper that Willeford, an avid biker who attends another church, learned about the shooting when his daughter called to say a man clad in body armor was shooting worshipers.

The local said that although Willeford has no military background, he didn’t hesitate when he came face to face with the suspect — and managed to squeeze off a round that struck the gunman, who had dropped his Ruger
AR-15 variant.

Willeford jumped into a truck driven by another local, Johnnie Langendorff, who witnessed the confrontation, and the pair gave chase.

Langendorff later told reporters about the dramatic pursuit.

“I pulled up to the intersection where the shooting happened and I saw two men exchanging gunfire, the other being a citizen of the community,” he said.

“The shooter of the church had taken off, fled in his vehicle, and the other gentleman came and he said, ‘We need to pursue him,’ that he just shot up the church. So that’s what I did. I just acted.”

He said he didn’t know who the heroic citizen was at the time.

“He was just a member of the community, and whenever he came to my vehicle in distress with his weapon, he explained very quickly what happened and he got in the truck and I knew it was just time [to go],” he said, KSAT reported.

“So we were doing about 95 mph, going around traffic and everything,” he added.

“Eventually he came to kind of a slowdown and after that, we got within just a few feet of him and he got off the road … He just lost control and that’s whenever I put the vehicle in park … The other gentleman jumped out and had his rifle drawn on him and he didn’t move after that,” he said.

Langendorff’s girlfriend, Summer Caddel, said Kelley died a few feet away from Langendorff.

The local man said Kelley was already dead when they found him.

“He was bleeding pretty bad,” the resident told the news outlet of Kelley while he was driving. “He didn’t live much longer than that.”

Martin confirmed that police had found Kelley dead.

“We are not sure if it was self-inflicted or if he was shot by a local resident,” the police official said.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Nov 2017)

Yes the US has a gun culture (300 million + guns and annual ammunition consumption rate of 10-12 billion rds a year), but they also have significantly more social issues, larger population, a country next door that has flooded them with drugs and illegal immigrants. Now Canada (according to Wiki) has something like 36,000 illegal immigrants, to match the US, we need to bump that to 1,000,000 even though most are not committing crimes, they still add a social burden on services that causes the system to miss even more domestic problems. 

Also where the lawful gun culture exists is generally not where most of the gun homicide exists. This data is quite interesting and shows that with political and fiscal will that the US could drive it's homicide rate down within a decade if the will was there https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/number-murders-county-54-us-counties-2014-zero-murders-69-1-murder/



For suicides per 100,000, the US is at 12.6 and France is 12.3, Canada 10.4, Swiss 10.7, Austria 23.8 and Germany 18.9 (source wiki)
So it's pretty clear guns are not a major driver of suicides and if you consider a country like Japan with almost no guns, you see that social issues drive suicide, not method.


----------



## a_majoor (8 Nov 2017)

The real problem is people are conflating tools with intent. Canada's worst mass murders took place using gasoline and a match (in the case of a Montreal nightclub arson) and dynamite (in the case of a bombing at a mine during a strike). The examples of people using trucks in places as far afield as France, London England, Edmonton and NYC to run over large numbers of people should be instructive. And of course, we have experience with people trying to murder us using home made explosives buried in the roads and ditches, using common household chemicals (the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing years ago shows how extreme that can become).

So people with murder on their minds will find a way, removing one set of tools simply directs them to look for substitutes.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Nov 2017)

The latest shooting shows the weaknesses in the current reporting system, had information on the shooter been in the system, he would have been denied permission to purchase firearms and rightly so. The tough part in the US is the sheer size of the country and the multitude of various jurisdictions. A deep and well funded examination of all of perpetrators of mass shooting since 1990 will likely show some common themes, those "indicators" could be complied and given out as flags that can be entered into the systems and what key phrases need to be added to ensure that a prohibition is created.


----------



## mariomike (8 Nov 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> So it's pretty clear guns are not a major driver of suicides and if you consider a country like Japan with almost no guns, you see that social issues drive suicide, not method.



As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.

Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.

Not the method of choice if simply wanting to make a gesture. eg: pills.

For those considerate of what others will find, this is a rather gruesome method to choose.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Nov 2017)

Or we could push for better mental health awareness. 
Maybe a suicide prevention program modeled after the CAF bystander training.  I'll never know if I could have saved a couple people I knew if I was more cognizant of that stuff but it seems more helpful going forward then banning a certain style of gun.  

Of course it would extend to the work place too, like when someone is harassed or picked on.   

Maybe the US is too big and busy for people to care about the small shit until it turns into a shoot out.


----------



## mariomike (8 Nov 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or we could push for better mental health awareness.



I remember asking one young woman why.

She said because nobody smiled at her that day.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Nov 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.
> 
> Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.
> 
> ...



If I ever get there, zip myself into a body bag, take sleeping pills and listen to music. Have all my documents attached to the outside of the bag. Minimal fuss and mess for the people having to deal with my body. People who jump off bridges are messy and sometimes live at least for awhile.....


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Nov 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> People who jump off bridges are messy and sometimes live at least for awhile.....



You're just wishing that on some Vancouver politicians, right?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (16 Nov 2017)

Rather than fight more almost pointless battles on gun control, work together on mental health issues, social issues and education issues. The overall social improvements will affect all types of homicides, crime, improve the economy, reduce single parent families and be generally good for the country. But then those issues don't fit neatly into the election cycle, so they charge the windmill again.


----------



## mariomike (22 Nov 2017)

1 ) The Las Vegas Strip may be shut down to vehicles so that during the next mass shooting Police and Paramedics can rescue the victims.
http://www.newsweek.com/las-vegas-strip-could-close-cars-after-stephen-paddock-shooting-719204

"The 4.2-mile strip is a popular cruising destination, with out-of-state visitors driving in from Arizona, California and other states to motor down Las Vegas Boulevard and witness the throngs of tourists, shining casinos and unique architecture.

It was so crowded, that it was difficult for emergency vehicles to access and egress the scene.

Ubers, taxi cabs, buses and pedestrians could still use the city's central artery."



2 ) Randolph Mantooth - Paramedic Johnny Gage of "EMERGENCY!" - speaks about the massacre.
https://www.facebook.com/EMSWorldFans/videos/1697666436941765/

( That show premiered during my graduating year of high school. It was about a job with a future, that was exciting and far from routine, with guaranteed security. )


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Nov 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> As far as method goes, for maximum lethality and minimum agony, I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot, to the head would rank #1.
> 
> Failure with this method is likely to cause a very unpleasant injury.
> 
> ...



If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.


----------



## jollyjacktar (23 Nov 2017)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.



I know of one case where the front of the face, eyes and jaw were removed without killing the idiot until a prolonged period of time had passed.


----------



## mariomike (23 Nov 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I would say a shotgun slug, or buckshot,





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> If you're putting a shotgun under your chin, any type of load in a shotgun will take your head apart. I know. I've cleaned up three of them. All were birdshot.



Don't take my word for it,

https://suicideproject.org/2012/11/my-suicide-attempt-2/
There is now a pellet between my right eye and my retina. I lost my upper lip most of my nose, most of my teeth, and the tip of my tongue. I have double-vision, have had four surgeries this year, and have at least a few more to go. Until recently, I didn’t know slugs were so much more powerful than shells that fire bird shot.

One knowledgeable reader of this website wrote in to suggest that those using a shotgun should consider using shotgun shells that shoot slugs, which is one piece of lead instead of a number of smaller balls of lead. Or else if using shot, to use buckshot, which can come in 0.24 - 0.36 caliber, instead of 0.05 which is used for things like clay pigeon/skeet shooting. The higher the caliber, the bigger the pellets (meaning they better maintain their speed and energy on impact), but the less of them.
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms

Shotgun suicide: Slug, buckshot or birdshot?
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=3h4XWuGvH8uGjwPKoI3gCA&q=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&oq=suicide+slug+birdshot+buckshot&gs_l=psy-ab.12..35i39k1.11021.13236.0.15531.8.8.0.0.0.0.171.1153.0j8.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.4.635....0.EHwrxsRnaYs



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I know of one case where the front of the face, eyes and jaw were removed without killing the idiot until a prolonged period of time had passed.



Happens sometimes.


----------



## brihard (23 Nov 2017)

Yup- shotgun/rifle suicide attempts do sometimes result in some really atrocious survivals. The face may literally come off, but the important parts of the brain survive. Under the chin is not necessarily reliable, particularly if one flinches back in the moment of pulling the trigger


----------



## McG (23 Nov 2017)

This thread seems to be building itself into an aide-memoire for those who want to shoot themselves.  Is that were we want to go?


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Nov 2017)

MCG said:
			
		

> This thread seems to be building itself into an aide-memoire for those who want to shoot themselves.  Is that were we want to go?



Yes. If the 'aim' of the thread is self-immolation 'end your life' hacks...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Nov 2017)

Some links about drugs and mass killings

https://www.cchrint.org/school-shooters/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/07/25/antidepressants-linked-murders-murderous-thoughts/

http://kellybroganmd.com/mass-shootings-the-new-manifestation-of-an-ancient-phenomenon-and-their-link-to-psychiatric-drugs/


----------



## Fishbone Jones (29 Nov 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Don't take my word for it,
> 
> https://suicideproject.org/2012/11/my-suicide-attempt-2/
> There is now a pellet between my right eye and my retina. I lost my upper lip most of my nose, most of my teeth, and the tip of my tongue. I have double-vision, have had four surgeries this year, and have at least a few more to go. Until recently, I didn’t know slugs were so much more powerful than shells that fire bird shot.
> ...





> One knowledgeable reader of this website wrote in to suggest that those using a shotgun should consider using shotgun shells that shoot slugs, which is one piece of lead instead of a number of smaller balls of lead. Or else if using shot, to use buckshot, which can come in 0.24 - 0.36 caliber, instead of 0.05 which is used for things like clay pigeon/skeet shooting. The higher the caliber, the bigger the pellets (meaning they better maintain their speed and energy on impact), but the less of them.



Really not very knowledgeable at all. Shot guns are designated by gauge, except for a .410, which is a caliber. Speaking of gauges, our 'knowledgeable' reader forgot to mention which gauge of shotgun he was using for his results. Shot sizes range from #12 which is the 0.05 diameter of a single pellet (2300 to the ounce). This is roughly equivalent to table salt and is used in pistol shot shells. Next is #9 and continues to all the way to #2, at .148 in dia. (90/oz). Then you have BB shot - .18 in dia @50/oz. Then buckshot #4 buck - .24, 21/oz up to 000 buck -.36, 6.2/oz. Shot diameter INCREASES as the shot number DECREASES because shotguns are sorted by gauge, not caliber. Contrary to what the 'knowledgeable' reader says. Gauge is based on how many of the same sized ball, the diameter of the bore, that will equal one pound. 12 gauge = 12 balls, 28 gauge = 28 balls. The ludicrous example sighted by the 'knowledgeable' expert of using #12 shot is very telling. I have only ever seen #12 shot, called snake or pepper shot in pistol cartridges. There has been shotgun shells loaded with it, but you'd be hard pressed to find a modern load of it. This is the stuff the 'knowledgeable' sites as his example. I don't think he's very knowledgeable at all. At least not in the sense of shotgunning. That's the risk with providing links to subjects you know little about. Otherwise you would have caught all the bullshit your 'knowledgeable' reader was spewing. But you found it on the internet, so it must be true 

My experience with this is practical and hands on, as I assume some of your stuff has been. Trust me, someone can miss with slugs and buck also. Birdshot will do the job very effectively as my retrieval of eyeballs, bone, teeth and meat can attest. Does it really matter which load you use? I think not.


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## mariomike (29 Nov 2017)

recceguy said:
			
		

> But you found it on the internet, so it must be true





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Don't take my word for it,



I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years.  

So, I posted references to support what I already knew from experience.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> My experience with this is practical and hands on, as I assume some of your stuff has been.



When did you work 9-1-1?


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Nov 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years.
> 
> So, I posted references to support what I already knew from experience.
> 
> When did you work 9-1-1?



I've never worked 911, nor ever professed to, ever, anywhere. My job is responding to and investigating industrial workplace deaths and injuries, issuing charges and taking the offenders to court. I'm usually on scene at the same time as the first responders, trying to secure the scene before they contaminate and/ or destroy it. The bucket boys are the worst.

However, to the point you are trying to pin me down on. When someone violently spreads their DNA around a room, the family is responsible for the cleanup. They can get a company to do it or they can ask family friends and relatives. I was asked by three families to assist them cleaning up. They wanted to keep things low key and as private as possible. I knew the three victims extremely well. Family members are normally so grief stricken, they just get in the way. So I prefer to do it without them there. It's what true friends are for and I don't take that responsibility lightly.

And why the indignation. "I didn't think you would take my word for it after working 9-1-1 full-time for over 36 years." I'm more than aware of your experience and even referenced it. I never attacked you or your integrity. Simply explained why the 'knowledgeable' reader wasn't and people have to be careful about the 'expert testimonial links" they provide.

So, now I'm offended that your offended.


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## daftandbarmy (12 Mar 2018)

After the Las Vegas shooting massacre, survival can be excruciating

On Rosemarie Melanson’s 153rd night in the hospital, she starts to vomit and can’t stop. She pulls her knees to her chest, closes her eyes and coughs bits of strawberry banana smoothie into a plastic bin her husband, Steve, holds for her. 
Stephanie, their eldest daughter, stands beside the bed, her gaze fixed on the wall. She’d brought the smoothie for Rosemarie, thinking it would be a treat. But her mother has been unable to keep down food since she was shot in the upper body at a country music festival on the Las Vegas Strip more than five months ago.
When the heaving subsides, Stephanie offers a whisper: “I’m sorry mom.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/after-the-las-vegas-shooting-massacre-survival-can-be-excruciating/2018/03/10/23fd3998-23aa-11e8-badd-7c9f29a55815_story.html?utm_term=.853af37c1731&wpisrc=al_trending_now__alert-national&wpmk=1


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## mariomike (27 Apr 2018)

QUOTE

Triage and Response Lessons From the Las Vegas Shooting

LAS VEGAS — Victims fleeing the Route 91 Harvest music festival shooting in October unintentionally thwarted emergency first responders’ efforts to conduct triage on site by self-transporting themselves to hospitals in larger-than-anticipated numbers.

Ambulances were lined up waiting to dispatch, but the immediate chaos at the scene and lack of a location on the shooter delayed the city’s response.

"Once we were able to determine the one and only shooter was shot, we were able to secure the scene in such a way as to provide more of that triage and transport in a more orderly fashion. But by then many people had already left on their own, going in their own direction seeking resources and treatment.”

Hospitals didn’t have the resources to handle self-transports.

Full story at link:
https://www.routefifty.com/public-safety/2018/04/triage-and-response-lessons-las-vegas-shooting/147795/

END QUOTE


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## Cloud Cover (27 Apr 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, now I'm offended that your offended.



You've been watching this guy eh? https://youtu.be/F-mju_gW3c8


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## mariomike (3 Oct 2019)

Update



> Oct. 3, 2019
> MGM and Las Vegas shooting victims reach a settlement of up to $800 million
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/us/las-vegas-shooting-mgm-settlement/index.html


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## mariomike (7 Feb 2022)

Loachman said:


> Sharpshooting plumber fired shot that took down Texas church gunman
> 
> 
> The man hailed as a hero for confronting the Texas mass shooter during his rampage is a sharpshooting plumber with no military background — who hit the gunman through a gap in his body armor, accor…
> ...



This is an update from today's news to the necro-post above.

It was the $ amount and military nexus that caught my eye.









						Air Force ordered to pay more than $230M in church shooting
					

SAN ANTONIO (AP) — The U.S.




					ottawa.citynews.ca
				






> SAN ANTONIO (AP) — The U.S. Air Force must pay more than $230 million in damages to survivors and victims’ families of a 2017 Texas church massacre for failing to flag a conviction that might have kept the gunman from legally buying the weapon used in the shooting, a federal judge ruled Monday.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Feb 2022)

mariomike said:


> This is an update from today's news to the necro-post above.
> 
> It was the $ amount and military nexus that caught my eye.
> 
> ...



Whoa....

Now there's a (quarter billion dollar) statement with respect to organizational accountability for the actions of its employees...


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