# Injured on duty



## EX-STRAT (27 Jan 2004)

Has anybody been seriously injured or sick while on duty? Frustrated with medical staff, lack of communication and professionalism in the medical field? I like to know because I am going through an ordeal that has me frustrated 90% of the time.


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## Slim (28 Jan 2004)

I was in a track that flipped. They threw me in Range control for 6 months, thereby ending my opportunity to go on tour!

After the six months were up I was re evaluated fit for duty. The cut on my finger, which was the only injury I actually received during the accident, healed nicely in about a week!


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## NMPeters (28 Jan 2004)

Are you Class A, B, B(A), C or Regular Force because each different class of service has completely different rules for the provision of health care and treatment. Also bear in mind that the mindset is, if you are a Class A reservist, you are trying to rip off the CF health care and dental system. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that from the med/dent professionals.


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## Slim (29 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by NMPeters:
> [qb] Are you Class A, B, B(A), C or Regular Force because each different class of service has completely different rules for the provision of health care and treatment. Also bear in mind that the mindset is, if you are a Class A reservist, you are trying to rip off the CF health care and dental system. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard that from the med/dent professionals. [/qb]


Major Peters

Both of us have identified ourselves as members of the regular force.

I don‘t think I‘ll say any more. Except maybe that there is a system in place here to let other members of the forum see where you did your service.

In future a quick look in the profile section may save you some unwelcome comments and embarrassment.

Please write me at any time.

Slim
41A 
Recce Squadron
Lord Strathcona‘s Horse ( Royal Canadians)


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## EX-STRAT (29 Jan 2004)

Thanks Slim I could not have said it better myself. I just want to know if people are getting the run around from the so called professionals? If you are there are ways to make people accountable for there actions as a person in the medical field i.e. case worker etc. You are the patient and you have to be treated as a person first not just another number. Don‘t leave frustrated, get all your questions answered and if you have mixed feelings demand a second opinion
but remember act professional yourself it gets better results.


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## Enzo (30 Jan 2004)

Maj Peters - No disrespect intended sir, but if I thought for a moment that the dr‘s considered me to be someone who was attempting to take advantage of the CF, and this is somehow connected to the ridiculous resistance I‘ve had to endure over the past 5 years as I continuously attempt to rejoin the CF. Honestly, I can‘t even entertain that scenario. I‘d snap. Actually, I‘m close to snapping as it is. My frustration levels are continuously high and I do my best to deal. I am beyond pissed off at this point. I‘ve never asked for a bloody dime from the CF! I do not have a disability pension even though they consider me to be medically unfit for duty after my injury (which they say the CF was not responsible for as a Report of Injury cannot be found, etc...) and I do not want one. I am fit, I have proven it, but not to the medics at CFRC Bordens satisfaction. It‘s crap! I added the link below, I won‘t go on about it, click the link if you‘re interested.

Strat - Go here:

 http://army.ca/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/16/562/2 

I went over my situation in detail awhile ago, its all basically there. What‘s your situation?

I gotta tell you, I‘ve no idea how to proceed next. All I want is to be back in green. A "paycheque" or "job security" doesn‘t factor into any of this. That‘s it. Anyone have any ideas? I‘m open.


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## tmbluesbflat (30 Jan 2004)

Your best bet is a civilian Doctor and a lawyer, the Army Doctors are not competant because they are stupid or because they are under orders to not diagnose somethings.(see private letter)


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## Enzo (30 Jan 2004)

I‘ve been to enough doctors and the next one CFRC want‘s me to go to is neither interested in seeing me (doesn‘t feel qualified to test me as he is an orthopaedic surgeon and this is an area that is outside of his realm, feels CFRC should do their own testing, etc...) and I couldn‘t afford to go to him if I wanted to anyway. $1200 min. Not bad for an hours work eh?

As for a lawyer, I‘m not like that. I doubt I could ever go to a lawyer, especially against the CF. Against my religion, so I guess I‘m just going to have to plug away until I realize that I‘m pooched.


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## Slim (30 Jan 2004)

ENZO
Brother if you want back in and that is the price you gotta pay then go get it! No one will help you but you!

Slim


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## GhostRecce (30 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by EX-STRAT:
> [qb]I just want to know if people are getting the run around from the so called professionals? [/qb]


It‘s called the military, you always get the run around


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## NMPeters (30 Jan 2004)

Slim,

I‘m not in the least embarrassed. The question was rhetorical because the original poster asked if anyone else was frustrated with the system. Since you completely missed the point I will explain it to you.

The frustration with the CF health care system is felt at all levels and in all components because there is not one standardized system. There is not even agreement as to what is considered the definition of being "on duty", and yes, that goes for Regular Force too.


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## leopard11 (30 Jan 2004)

this week, on parade night, we were given two pams:
"Long term disability, Insurance plan for regular and reserve force members"
"Accidental dismemberment policy regular and reserve force members"

It explains in some detail what to do in the event that you do fall into one of the two categories,  how much compensation you can get, and how to go about getting it,  if anybody wants to have a look, check at ure BOR,  or let me know all scan them and post/email them.


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## EX-STRAT (30 Jan 2004)

GhostRecce I agree that it is almost a military standard "runaround" and we have all excepted this when it comes to say clearing in/out etc but when it involves the health of a member the "runaround" has to cease.


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## Enzo (31 Jan 2004)

Slim, it was on my list of things to save for, until I took the Ortho‘s response to the CFRC. They sent that information to Borden. The response from Borden was that I am to get a qualified "physiatrist" to examine me.

Physiatrist, see physical medicine:

"phys ·i ·cal med ·i ·cine n
the branch of medicine concerned with the diagnosis of injuries or physical conditions and their treatment by external means, including heat, massage, or exercise, rather than by medication or surgery. 
Also called physiatrics"

EncartaÃ‚® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

I have actually been to 3 doctors who fall under that category according to CFRC and they have all passed me with their blessings. This is in addition to my working WCB Commercial Diving medical, TC Commercial Pilots medical and a clean bill of health from my bloody dentist!!

CFRC then responded (all of this took a long time for the correspondence of course) like a broken record that I should go to an Orthopaedic Surgeon. I asked if that would settle this question once and for all and the dr. @ CFRC said that the information would be passed along for further review. Make up your minds, which is it??? I‘m going in bloody circles here.

Not bloody good enough. If I‘m going to "invest" in myself, then I at least need to know if the information will be relevant and right now it hardly matters as I am a student and cannot afford such a sum at this time. This is why I have gone to an MP - who has sent a second letter as the first was not responded to. All in addition to the fact that I was "Cat A" when I voluntarily released from the CF, which was then changed to "B" after I had been out, but upon my reapplication the next year it had become "C"; before I had actually submitted my medical!! WTF!?!

And then for fun, I watch things like "Truth, Duty, Valour" where 18 yr old Officer Cadets are unable to participate in the final physical challenge due to injuries sustained from running as she has her "career" to think about, according to her parents.

I will get back in even if it takes another 5 bloody years as I cannot stomach the thought that someone of my abilities is unable to be allowed the opportunity to do that which I do best. I swear, at times you‘d think I was living in the bloody Twilight Zone?!? I keep looking behind me to see if Rod Serling is having a smoke and a smile at my expense. If this is a Karma thing; honestly, I don‘t quite recall being Mussolini in a previous life, although there are rumours that I do have some Italian in me. Coincidence?


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## Caz (31 Jan 2004)

Ah, red tape.  About as fun as getting hit with a frying pan...

I‘m surprised about the run-around given to the RegF people.

Maj Peters - How is a Class A reservist getting injured on duty ripping off they system?  I hadn‘t heard that mindset yet.


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## Bin-Rat (27 Feb 2005)

EX-STRAT said:
			
		

> If you are there are ways to make people accountable for there actions as a person in the medical field i.e. case worker etc. You are the patient and you have to be treated as a person first not just another number. Don't leave frustrated, get all your questions answered and if you have mixed feelings demand a second opinion
> but remember act professional yourself it gets better results.



Hmmm, I wish someone could have told me how to do that when I was in back 88 to 93... as having a G4 O3 medical Catagory, the 1 CDHSR doctor, at that time was a Captain... I was unfit field, and being at a field unit, my Section Officer called the MO and said to him He wanted me out in the field... Nice doctor Ablidge him, so here I was a G4 O3 Unfit field, Un , Isolated posting and what.... Now, sent back out to the field exercises with the Doctor's blessing... So question is, if the Doctor say's yes you can go to the field, even though you shouldn't by medical catagory, then whom or who can ya complain to....

My thoughts are the Doctor should have said NO, he is unfit field and CAN NOT go... 
It's like that one post about Univertality of Service.. sorry Spelling... heck they say ya have to be fit to go in the field, heck NO, they just send ya anyhow... heh heh heh so what's the difference...


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## Cansky (27 Feb 2005)

I've read this thread and totally understand that most people are frustrated with the medical system.   Try to understand that the system is under some big changes these past few years and the bugs are still trying to be worked out.  On of my major complaints is that most Military medical clinics have surveys that we would like to have filled out.  Most patients refuse.  You can also complain through your chain of command if you truly feel that you are hard done by.  The system will never get better if those who claim they are hard done by or are not treated professionally by the system and its staff, don't come forward.  I have been the 2 ic of treatment room in Gagetown for the past 2 years and have not had a single complaint forward to me about my staff not being professional.    My other suggestion is find out how you would be dealt with on civi street.  We have it really good in comparison.  My young daughter is awaiting testing after a massive brain injury.  the testing is a 18 month to 2 year wait for Neurophysic testing.  A military person would wait about 6 months.  WE HAVE IT MUCH BETTER THAN THE CIVI's


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## Bin-Rat (27 Feb 2005)

Well when ya look at it, with it's own Doctors and specialist, the options are better in the service then on the civi street.. again as Kristen posted.. to get appoinments takes months... my next appoinment for a Physiatrist is 1 year away, I got the appoiment date, but now just have to wait for time to pass...

The other thing I noticed was I had better treatment from services on the base side of things then dealings with a UMO...
Well witht he UMO we had.. (UMO= Unit Medical Officer) as in 1 CHDSR has it's own Unit Doctor and he is the one we see for sick parades and things, But when I got posted to base side it was different, I guess working on a Base they felt better then people who got posted to a field unit..heh heh heh.. I didn't mind the field when I was 100%, , I don't think they would have liked the survey answer's I would have added, and would have probably gotten lost in the shuffle of Doc's and not gotten sent in.. heh heh heh..


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## Gunner98 (16 Mar 2005)

The Patient Surveys actually go to Quality Assurance Personnel and not direct to the physician's in-box.   No comment would be ignored.   

Many CF Medical facilities are undergoing the civilian accreditation process, for more info see www.cchsa.ca.   Several of the clinics/Health Service Centres are now accredited after persevering thru the two-year civilian process.   One of the goals of Rx2000 is to have the entire CF Health Services System accredited.


Patient complaints can also be handled through the formal complaint management process see Medical Service Instruction 3000-003 found on the Internet at:   http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/medServiceInstructions/engraph/msi_cf_3000-003_e.asp

The CF only has one uniformed Physiatrist, he is posted to Ottawa, otherwise you are in the civilian queue.


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## Strike (16 Mar 2005)

Pardon the ignorance, but what is a Physiatrist?


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## Roy Harding (16 Mar 2005)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> I've read this thread and totally understand that most people are frustrated with the medical system.   Try to understand that the system is under some big changes these past few years and the bugs are still trying to be worked out.  On of my major complaints is that most Military medical clinics have surveys that we would like to have filled out.  Most patients refuse.  You can also complain through your chain of command if you truly feel that you are hard done by.  The system will never get better if those who claim they are hard done by or are not treated professionally by the system and its staff, don't come forward.  I have been the 2 ic of treatment room in Gagetown for the past 2 years and have not had a single complaint forward to me about my staff not being professional.    My other suggestion is find out how you would be dealt with on civi street.  We have it really good in comparison.  My young daughter is awaiting testing after a massive brain injury.  the testing is a 18 month to 2 year wait for Neurophysic testing.  A military person would wait about 6 months.  WE HAVE IT MUCH BETTER THAN THE CIVI's



Listen to her, folks - she knows what of she speaks.  

In my experience with injured soldiers over the years, it was not so much the MEDICAL system that was frustrating them, as the PERSONNEL/ADMINISTRATIVE system.  A good medic (and I include Kirsten in that group) will direct you to the administrative staff and/or your chain of command regarding any administrative problems you may have.

Having only been out for slightly over a year, I cannot accurately compare the civilian system to the military - I've been more or less happy with my interactions with both.


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## the 48th regulator (16 Mar 2005)

> Listen to her, folks - she knows what of she speaks.
> 
> In my experience with injured soldiers over the years, it was not so much the MEDICAL system that was frustrating them, as the PERSONNEL/ADMINISTRATIVE system.  A good medic (and I include Kirsten in that group) will direct you to the administrative staff and/or your chain of command regarding any administrative problems you may have.
> 
> Having only been out for slightly over a year, I cannot accurately compare the civilian system to the military - I've been more or less happy with my interactions with both.



Humbug!

That is all I will say.

30 Serbs couldn't kill me, but the Canadian medical community has done their best to destroy my spirit.  I have found only a few good apples in a barrel of rotten ones.

Ten years, and I still hit many a road block...but I will keep plugging away..

tess


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## Roy Harding (17 Mar 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Humbug!
> 
> That is all I will say.
> 
> ...



It would seem that the Canadian medical community has been as successful as your 30 Serbs. 

 I see by your profile that you are now 48th Highlanders.  Were you Reg or Res at the time of the injury?  (Not that it SHOULD matter, but most experiences in UNPROFOR with Reserve soldiers were definitely less than text book examples of how the system should work.)

I would submit, however, that if your experience is similar to most others that I am aware of, your beef is NOT with the Medical community, but with the administrative system.  If you were with 2 VP at the time of the incident, I am well aware of the action to which you refer - much has been done since that time to correct the systemic shortcomings.  If you want to email me direct, I may be able to suggest some points of contact for you that you haven't considered yet.


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## the 48th regulator (17 Mar 2005)

My beef is completely with the medical community.

I will take you up on your offer, maybe you have the right information I have been seeking the last ten years.  I can then pass this on to the Powers that be, and ask why it has taken so long to resolve my issue, when the answers were readily available.

And yes I was reservist when I was injured, the Driver Regular force.  And we have received the exact same type of run around from our system, including and especially the medical portion.

As I said I will not cast down the whole group, as there are some stellar members who do seek out to assist.  But they are bogged down by a slow moving, antiquated, arrogant system that hinders them doing what should be done.

My medical treatment with "UNPROFOR" was excellent and very professional. The Canadian medical members, The 6th American Naval fleet , and even NDMC should be commended.

The follow up has been horrendous.  Lost files. wrong paperwork, wrong diagnosis, treatment etc etc.  I have seen it all and I f I were to publish my diary about it, it would be a considered a comedy of errors.

So, I do not feel we should kid ourselves or try to convince those that have not had the pleasure to experience it, that every think is OK and getting better...It's not.

Dileas

tess


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## Cansky (17 Mar 2005)

48th I'm not surprised to hear you have problems with our system.  One of the areas lacking the most is in regards to the reserves.  I have been with the medical system for 17 years and although great strides have been made to improve the system the reserves still seem to be a lacking area.  Mostly this is because when they are finished their deployments or taskings, the question becomes who does their follow up and usually they get left behind.  If you don't mind, you can PM me your concerns and I will do all I can to find you any answers you need (or you can post here, what ever you preference is)  In the mean time I will talk with case managers to find out what our role is in looking after reserves.  My understanding is if you were injured while working on contract (regardless of where, regardless of location) the military must look after that injury or concern.  I will confirm all this.  But please feel free to ask any questions.  I look at my job as we are to serve the troops and get them the help they.


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## Gunner98 (17 Mar 2005)

Despite one definition given earlier in this thread.  Her is more iinfo:

Physiatrists treat acute and chronic pain and musculoskeletal disorders. They may see a person who lifts a heavy object at work and experiences back pain, a basketball player who sprains an ankle and needs rehabilitation to play again, or a knitter who has carpal tunnel syndrome. Physiatrists' patients include people with arthritis, tendonitis, any kind of back pain, and work- or sports-related injuries. 

Physiatrists also treat serious disorders of the musculoskeletal system that result in severe functional limitations. They would treat a baby with a birth defect, someone in a bad car accident, or an elderly person with a broken hip. Physiatrists coordinate the long-term rehabilitation process for patients with spinal cord injuries, cancer, stroke or other neurological disorders, brain injuries, amputations, and multiple sclerosis.

Physiatrists practice in rehabilitation centers, hospitals, and in private offices. They often have broad practices, but some concentrate on one area such as pediatrics, sports medicine, geriatric medicine, brain injury, or many other special interests.


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## Enzo (22 Apr 2005)

Gunner, by that definition, it raises an interesting observation. CFRC instructed that I be examined by a physiatrist which I did and who passed me with no limitations. With that, they then again insisted that I see a physiatrist, insisting that I be evaluated by an Orthopaedic Surgeon (who are not in the habit of such evaluations, they always referred to the same physiatrist who cleared me the first time).

In the end, they wanted an Ortho, so why not simply say that in the beginning? And even the ortho who finally did see me, did so as a favour to a family friend (and at the cost of a bottle of 12yr old single malt) and was quite unimpressed with the military instructions that accompanied the forms. He also felt that the physiatrist who examined me (a couple of years had passed by this point) was the qualified person for the job according to the inadequate criteria outlined on the form. He was disgusted with the way that I've been treated (no reason not to share, besides I had to explain something since he was surprised at my excellent health and wondered why I had endurred such a runaround of bureaucratic nonsense) and was apologetic that he couldn't do anything more.

This is hardly efficiency at its finest. I don't want to blame anyone, I simply want the system to be reformed.


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