# Tom Clancy



## Sh0rtbUs

I was in Chapters picking up a few books from the Military History section, and couldnt help but notice that Tom Clancy practically has his own book case there. This man is a marketing machine, and I've only played 1 of his games. I was just curious as to what everyones thoughts on him were, and the books with his name plastered on them.


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## Scratch_043

very good read, one and all, (I used to read them in class when I got bored with the teacher) I especially like the Rainbow six books, and the stories featuring the adventures of Jack Ryan.

If you like the game, the best one to start you off is Rainbow six, as it shows where alot of the characters and features, etc. come from. there are also other books using the same characters.


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## Infanteer

A technocrat, I've seen Clancy's literature get burned quite often by military professionals for being too focused on superficial ideas (what kind of rifle they use) or just getting his facts plain wrong.  Plus, they seem to delight in making fun of his pictures with that Carrier hat and jacket on.

His books are entertaining works of fiction, but no more.  If you are perusing the Military History section of the bookstore with the intent of serious study on military theory, I'd recommend looking at other titles (look at the recommendations list on this forum).


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## Fusaki

Tom Clancy is what I like to refer to as a military pornographer... lots of detail, but not much in the way of plot. Aside from a few of his earlier novels, Clancy is like reading a cross between a Goosebumps Book and a Janes Military Reference. If you're going to read Clancy, check out the Hunt For Red October, Debt of Honor, or Clear and Present Danger. Stay away from Rainbow Six, and the Bear and the Dragon. I've read a few others by him, including Patriot Games and Without Remorse, but those were mediocre at best.

His games on the other hand, are just awsome. Rainbow Six 3: Ravenshield and the Ghost Recon series are some of my favourites.


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## DJL

Though now terribly dated, I always thought Red Storm Rising was a decent read.


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## Ex-Dragoon

I thought _Red Storm Rising _ was his only truly good book.


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## McDonagh

Has anyone read his 'Commander Series'   Those are fiction. They are actually pretty good books written with retired Generals. With thier frist hand accounts.   I havent read the first one with Tommy Franks but Shadow Warriors with Carl Stiner and Battle Ready with Tony Zinni   were really decent reads. 

But he is a career author like Stephen King and all them. Spits them our left right and centre make you wonder about the actual care put into any of them. Then again I am not a writer and have no idea about such things. Those poses on the back cover are head shakers though.


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## nakhiti

Hey Guys!

I know I'm late with since since I just became a member. I enjoy reading Clancy's books, especially Hunt For Red October, Clear and Present Danger and Rainbow Six. I also enjoyed Debt Of Honor. However,not only do I agree he spends too much time on detail (I don't care how the SAM works just get me into the freakin story), but at this stage of the game his plots have become predictable. I enjoyed the previous movies but the latest one sucked! After reading the book Sum Of All Fears the movie was a waste of time. A seriously watered down depiction of a half-decent story.


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## tabernac

> Stay away from Rainbow Six



One of the best books I've ever read. I think it was good.



> His games on the other hand, are just awsome. Rainbow Six 3: Ravenshield and the Ghost Recon series are some of my favourites.



Dont get me started about Ghost Recon OR Rainbow Six 3. Some of the best games ever made.


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## AmmoTech90

Good games, and some good books.

One thing I found when I went on Clancy binge while on tour is by around the third Clancy book in a month you find he starts repeating phrases, not only in dialogue but in descriptive events.  This turned me off him and I haven't read anything since Bear and the Dragon in 2001.  Found the same thing with Dan Brown.  Read Digital Fortress, Angels and Demons, and Deception Point all within a couple of weeks and was getting confused about which plot I was in as the writing was so similar.

Now it is good to have a style, but maybe Clancy should go for some quality rather than quantity in his word count.


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## tabernac

> Good games, and some good books.
> 
> One thing I found when I went on Clancy binge while on tour is by around the third Clancy book in a month you find he starts repeating phrases, not only in dialogue but in descriptive events.  This turned me off him and I haven't read anything since Bear and the Dragon in 2001.  Found the same thing with Dan Brown.  Read Digital Fortress, Angels and Demons, and Deception Point all within a couple of weeks and was getting confused about which plot I was in as the writing was so similar.



I find that he does seem to be overly repetitive. The Sum of All Fears is up there on my good books list(movie didn't follow the books plot at all). Splinter Cell is also a very good stealth game.


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## Slim

Tom Clancy at one time was one of my favourite authors and I would never pass up the chance to collect one of his works in hard cover.

Lately though I find that his works are not of the same quality that the older books (Red Storm, Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger) were. They seem a bit stuffy and, in the case of Rainbow Six like, they were written rather hastily in order to meet a deadline, rather than for the pure enjoyment of the fans. I really didn't enjoy that book nearly as much as the first ones I read by him.

I still purchase the occasional novel of his but other authors have now taken the place he once had on my bookshelf. 

Slim


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## T.I.M.

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I thought _Red Storm Rising _ was his only truly good book.



"Red Storm Rising" was actually co-written with Larry Bond, though Bond's name does not appear anywhere on the cover.  If you compare it to other books by both authors it's actually closer in style to other books by Bond like "Red Phoenix", "Cauldron" and "Vortex" (which I consider Bond's best work).

While I haven't read any technothrillers in some time, I was quite a fan of Bond's books, moreso than Clancy's.  Bond is not as good a writer (which means fairly mediocre, since Clancy himself is no literary artist), but I find his scenarios are more dynamic and gripping - the race for Praetoria that ends "Vortex" is military tension at its best.  Clancy's scenarios on the other hand tend to be rather one-sided affairs where the ultimate outcome never in serious doubt.  It was for that reason I preferred the movie version of "Hunt for Red October" as it made the Soviet super-sub out to be a real danger, as opposed to something the Americans were easily able to track after the application of just a little Yankee ingenuity.

Nevertheless I did enjoy Clancy's earlier work, like "Clear and Present Danger" and "The Sum of all Fears" is a masterpiece (I could not put that one down) - but after that I think Clancy took a dive.  "Debt of Honour" was irritating, and "The Bear and the Dragon" was one long rant/techno wank that I only finished out of pure stubborness.  It's probably the last Clancy novel I'll ever read.


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## Crazy_Eyes

aaaaahhh, The Bear And The Dragon Was horrorible, Redstorm Rising was pretty good, and one of his Power plays: State of Siege was also good


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## Sheerin

Clancy acutally doesn't write the Power Play books, even though they are in his name...


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## Crazy_Eyes

I Thought Clancy and someone else wrote the Power Plays? Guess not ???


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## Sheerin

Clancy did not actually write the power play and Op-Center books, if you'll notice on the book cover it says 'Tom Clancy's Power Plays".  Clancy aparently just gave the original idea and it was written by someone else.  












oh and the clancy faq has some interesting info www.clancyfaq.com


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## Blindspot

Ghostwalk said:
			
		

> Tom Clancy is what I like to refer to as a military pornographer... lots of detail, but not much in the way of plot. Aside from a few of his earlier novels, Clancy is like reading a cross between a Goosebumps Book and a Janes Military Reference.



LOL! He writes godawful characters and his plots are just poorly executed despite the interesting political ideas. I read Rainbow Six and I was actually hoping the evil scientists would succeed with their plot just to see how TC might handle a post apocolyptic, science fiction twist. I couldn't help but cringe every time I had to read the inane banter between Chavez, Clark and their wives. It ruined the mystique of these elite commandos for me knowing what they did on their "down time". Heh, I just pictured Charlie Sheen playing Ding Chavez. <Shudder>

Incidentally, if there's anyone else out there that still plays Ghost Recon or Ravenshield, let me know. I play with a good bunch of guys that would be happy to see some new blood.


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## Iceman_445

If you read the Jack Ryan series in correct order it provides a unique, but somewhat blurred perspective on the late cold war era.   That being said, if you have an open mind read the books, they are quite enjoyable as long as you don't pick them apart for their technical inaccuracies.  They may not be probable, but anything is possible.


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## DJL

> If you read the Jack Ryan series in correct order it provides a unique, but somewhat blurred perspective on the late cold war era.   That being said, if you have an open mind read the books, they are quite enjoyable as long as you don't pick them apart for their technical inaccuracies.  They may not be probable, but anything is possible.




Have you read, Red Rabbit? It's the prequel to Patriot Games and Red October.


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## buckahed

Fun reads, but the thing to remember about Clancy is he got his start when the United States Naval Institute Press published The Hunt for Red October. Since the chief editor of the USNI Press is a serving USN admiral, that means the book was published by the Submarine branch of the USN.


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## zerhash

Blindspot said:
			
		

> Incidentally, if there's anyone else out there that still plays Ghost Recon or Ravenshield, let me know. I play with a good bunch of guys that would be happy to see some new blood.



lol no pun intended right?

is there a ghost recon or anymore rainbow books since the first?


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## mrosseker

zerhash said:
			
		

> is there a ghost recon or anymore rainbow books since the first?



No, to the best of my knowledge there never was a Ghost Recon book, and there was only one Rainbow Six book. I'm not sure how the games have his name on them, aside from Rainbow Six. Maybe he came up with the concept, or they were inspired by his writing.. 

Anyways, I'm a Clancy fan. I think the games kick ass, and I like most of the books that I've read (although I thought that Clear and Present Danger was boring as hell, which is strange, because it's one of his better liked books).


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## Scratch_043

there aren't any more R6 books, but there are books that use the same characters.


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## Pieman

When i orignally posted, I did provide a link to a Tom Clancy plot generator, which is quite funny. But then I realized it was on a page that was not exactly something I would want my mother to see. If you are interested PM me, or hunt for the specific article on http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/


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## Goober

I've read a ton of Clancy's books, Rainbow 6, Red Storm Rising, Hunt for Red October, Patriot Games, Clear and Present Danger, Dept of Honour, Politika (co-written by him), and various Op-Center and Net Force novels, none which were written by Clancy, but they are in the world Clancy developed.

Red Storm Rising was the last book of his I read, and it will remain as the last book of his I'll read. After reading so many of his books, the all blend into the same old things, with different twists. But just having different twists to separate his stories is not enough for me. You can break down most of his books into a simple formula of clear cut good vs. evil, evil guys attack, good guys are surprised and plan counter attack, which is somewhat effective but the evil guys big plan still goes down but good guys get the jump on them and prevent disaster. Or something like that. I take real issue with the happenings of WW3 in Red Storm Rising. There were many many attacks by both the "good guys" and the "bad guys" and it was like watching a "pong" game on the atari, good guys attack is successful, bad guys is, good guys is, good guys is, bad guys is, bad guys is, good guys its game over... Actually I think a boxing match would be a better analogy, where each round was a chapter, and you could score it for the good guys or bad guys.

Anyway I didn't like that book. The first book I read was Politika, and I loved it, because it was more espionage than shoot-em up like Rainbow Six was, but Rainbow Six was good in my opinion as well.

Like someone said, they are fiction, I have no idea about the accuracy of his writtings. Some of his books are good, some are bad, but all of them follow the same formula if you ask me.


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## zerhash

what books have the same charactors as R6?


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## Scratch_043

There are a few, as I believe, the only one that I can think of at the moment is Debt of Honour.


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## zerhash

are they active members or do they just make an appearance? which charactor is it?


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## Scratch_043

The common characters are John Clark, and his (at this point future) son in law, I can't remember his name right now.

Edit: Remembered the name, Domingo 'Ding' Chavez


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## zerhash

was santiago arnavista ever a charactor?


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## Scratch_043

I can't remember, it's been a while.


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## zerhash

only one way to find out!
gotta buy em all and read em all

btw it took over a year to read R6
im kinda slow.


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## Scratch_043

do what I did, borrow it from the library, and read it in class.

Disclaimer: reading or sleeping is NOT recomended.


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## zerhash

ya... school is for suckers anyways


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## Scratch_043

I think I'll ad a disclaimer to that one now...


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## zerhash

lol torn takes no responsibility if you fail school. but if you ultimately join the army in hopes of a real life you can thank him later


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## SprCForr

Nice and thick and don't require much thinking  . You can tear them up and pass them around. Handy for those hurry up and waits!


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## mrosseker

SprCForr said:
			
		

> Handy for those hurry up and waits!



You said it brother. ;D :


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## FredDaHead

I was just wondering, since nobody seemed to mention it, what you guys thought of Executive Orders?

The idea was nice, and I enjoyed the first part, but it was much MUCH too long. That's one thing I don't like about Clancy: he makes his stories much longer than they "should" be.


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## Goober

Frederik G said:
			
		

> I was just wondering, since nobody seemed to mention it, what you guys thought of Executive Orders?
> 
> The idea was nice, and I enjoyed the first part, but it was much MUCH too long. That's one thing I don't like about Clancy: he makes his stories much longer than they "should" be.



I agree. I got halfway through then put it down. It started to annoy me, but I can't remember why, its been a few years.


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## casca

What I like from Tom Clancy is his books series on the different groups in the military like: Marine, Carrier, Armoured Cav, Airborne, etc. These books are both good and informative.


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## canadianblue

Well, I would have to agree on the point that Tom Clancy makes way too long books. I only finished about 3/4 of Rainbow Six, and got half way through some other ones. Here are the books I have read.

OP-Center Line of Control
OP-Center State of Seige
SSN
Net Force Breaking Point
Net Force Point of Impact
Red Storm Rising
The Hunt for the Red October

the books that were only about 300 pages long I had no trouble reading them. I really have'nt read much since I started high school. But I think I'm gonna start reading more of Clancy's books once again.

Strangely enough Net Force Point of Impact was pretty interesting and a good read, they tried to bust some guys selling an illegal drug over the internet that would turn basically any human being into a raging beast, and the drugs would cause murders and rapes.

Red Storm Rising was by far the best Tom Clancy book I read.


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## armyrules

Some Tom Clancy books that I have read are Debt Of Honour, Executive Orders, Patriot Games, R6, Clear and Present Danger and I thought they were all well written. But I thought that R6 focused too much on detail. What do you guys think?


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## Johnny_H

I enjoyed Red Storm Rising but there was something that didn't quite sit right with me, I cant put my finger on it but somethin in that story didn't seem believable. I wish i was knowledgeable enough to explain this, but really its just a gut feeling i had while reading it.


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## T.I.M.

I know what you mean.  I had the same feeling.

I think it's the fact that the war isn't. . . apocalyptic. . . enough.  All in all it's a pretty tame war for a clash between the Warsaw Pact and NATO.  General Hacket's "The Third World War" has a (brief) global conflict with much wider scope and a great deal more devastation.  That book felt a bit closer to the mark for me when I read it.

Of course the problem you run into with a WWIII book is how to prevent it from becoming another after-the-bomb novel by chapter 2.  But I felt that "Red Storm Rising" was pretty tame in its war, even within those restrictions.  Still liked it though.


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## jerrythunder

Hey Everyone, since this is an off topic list i hope this is where i can write this:

I just finished reading Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six. This book is pretty good except for some small parts that i didnt like. Tom Clancy is a good author, Except for that he is Pro-American. I prefer Frederick Forsyth to him any day. Especially his book The Avenger.


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## baboon6

All I can say is- I loved his books when i was 15. Now i 'm 29 and I think they're a bit silly. i feel like I've growen up and he hasn't.


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## jerrythunder

ToRN said:
			
		

> very good read, one and all, (I used to read them in class when I got bored with the teacher) I especially like the Rainbow six books,



Hey, There are more than one rainbow six books? there is a sequil?


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## FredDaHead

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> Hey, There are more than one rainbow six books? there is a sequil?



Actually I think there are two tomes because, like 99% of Clancy's books, he drags the story on too long to fit it in one book.


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## jerrythunder

Does anyone know what book that would be?


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## vercingetorix

"Hunt for red October"...first and LASt good clancy book!!

         Hey Ghost Walk, I'm going to use that quote,( let me know if you got it form someone else)

"Tom Clancy is what I refer to as a Military Pornographer" hehehe that had me in stitches for a while.

        "Patriot games" was O.K. but really dived at the end.  
  
        But then he made, "Red Storm Rising" HOLY HORSE CRAP!!!! is the best way to describe this typed diahrea.  This book stank like horse shit on a hot day.  Icould just picture the 5 star american generals jerking off to it while they read it.  The first 500 pages wern't bad, but the last two hundred were absolutly horendous.  I had to confide in a friend of mine, who is an admitted clancy-aholic, and tell him that I couldn't finish the book, because it was soooooooo boring.  He said to pick it up again and finish it because it got good at the end.   I lost trak of how many submarine encounter/kills he describes, last count I had in the book was about 30!!!! It's a fricken book, 3-4 woluld've sufficed, but over 30...and in Clancy-like detail!!!! For the love of god, someone needs to put a magnet on that man's portable lap top to prevent him from finishing his next book!!!!!!!
    
AHHH. o/k/, sorry for al;l those out there who like Clancy, but I just had to get that off my chest....I'm going to grab a beer!


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## chalk1

baboon6 said:
			
		

> All I can say is- I loved his books when i was 15. Now i 'm 29 and I think they're a bit silly. i feel like I've growen up and he hasn't.



     I know the feeling. They're fun reads, but there's some sort of substance that's lacking. If you want to try something by Clancy that's a little different then take a look at "Without Remorse". I'm not saying it's the best of his novels, but you do get a rare look at Clark's past. It really helps you to understand how Clark develops psychologically through time.


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## Kalatzi

Stay away from "Teeth of the Tiger" I picked it up from a discount bin to see what he'd been up to. 
What a mistake, :boring:  really lousy plot, bad characterisation etc etc
I got the sense that the publisher was paying him by tthe word
Used to be a fan of his earlier stuff. Agree with the other posters, he just doesnt seem to have kept up
as someone else posted Military Pornography


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## 17thRecceSgt

I think Red Storm Rising was one of his best writes.  I am about to start Shadow Warrior, the one on Spec Ops.  Hope it was worth the $2.00 I spent at the flea market for it   ;D


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## armyrules

I really ejoyed Red Storm Rising a really quick read I found anyways. I hope you enjoy the book Mud Recce Man, and what a great price!!


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## Centurian1985

I liked his early stuff, but a lot of his spin-offs (Op Center, Net Force, etc.) are just plain stupid.  Some of that stuff just does not work that way.   I also find that many of his characters are either silly or highly improbable, i.e. the traditional Private with a degree from Yale or Harvard who after one year in the military is equivalent to a Delta Force soldier - not just one of them but a whole team worth.  I mean, there's stretching the truth for a story and then just plain BS.  You might as well be reading Mack Bolan. 

_(Buddy of mine on TQ5B/6A course back in late 1980's pretending to do a locker inspection:  "What the hell is this? Is that Mack Bolan? You read Mack Bolan?  Good man, you'll go far in this army...") _


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## 17thRecceSgt

I never got into the Netforce, Politika or any of those...I have however managed to pick up most of the "good" books in hardcover for $5 a piece, in very good conition, at local flea markets.  Hard one to find is...original Hunt for Red October...

Sum of All Fears was the last one I read...ironic this summer in a way...


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## TCBF

"I think it's the fact that the war isn't. . . apocalyptic. . . enough.  All in all it's a pretty tame war for a clash between the Warsaw Pact and NATO.  General Hacket's "The Third World War" has a (brief) global conflict with much wider scope and a great deal more devastation.  That book felt a bit closer to the mark for me when I read it."

-  Try "Red Army", by Ralph Peters.  This was NOT a happy read for a Cdn crew commander in Germany in 1988!

As for Clancy,  HFRO and SOAF were good.  HFRO became a good flick as well.  Hollywood got all wobbly on SOAF.  No balls.


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## 17thRecceSgt

TCBF said:
			
		

> "I think it's the fact that the war isn't. . . apocalyptic. . . enough.  All in all it's a pretty tame war for a clash between the Warsaw Pact and NATO.  General Hacket's "The Third World War" has a (brief) global conflict with much wider scope and a great deal more devastation.  That book felt a bit closer to the mark for me when I read it."
> 
> -  Try "Red Army", by Ralph Peters.  This was NOT a happy read for a Cdn crew commander in Germany in 1988!
> 
> As for Clancy,  HFRO and SOAF were good.  HFRO became a good flick as well.  Hollywood got all wobbly on SOAF.  No balls.



The one Ben Affleck played Ryan, correct?

So far for the ones made into movies, I liked Patriot Games.  That or Clear and Present Danger...


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## aesop081

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> That or Clear and Present Danger...



The movie was a farce when compared to the story in the book


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## 17thRecceSgt

They all were, BUT...they were the best movies from the books IMO.

I would like to see a good cut of Red Storm Rising or Without Remorse made.

Patriot Games is "most-believeable" so far.


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## aesop081

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Without Remorse



Absolutely........my second favorite after Red Storm rising


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## warspite

i always thought that redstorm rising and the hunt for red october were both great books


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## Signalman150

An old thread that's been resurrected, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Many of the posters noted that his early work was entertaining, and well worth the read.  I agree:  The Hunt for Red October was an excellent book, though my all time fav still remains The Cardinal of the Kremlin.  His work started to slip drastically about the time he published The Sum of All Fears. I wondered about that, and brought it up with some folks in the writing community that I hang around with.  

I was dismayed to discover that Tom Clancy stopped writing his own books.  He has a "staff" that writes his books, and he does the final edit, fires it off to his publisher, and collects his cheque. As ridiculous as it sounds, it immediately explained the outlandish plots, the reliance on "technical" stuff to fill copy, and the generally uneven narrative style.  Tom Clancy is a good writer: no question.  But he sold out and became a branded industry instead of a novelist.

I picked up one of his technical series on the US Marine Corps' expeditionary units.  Some nice pictures, and a couple of interesting interviews, but the narrative style was worthy of a grade six English paper. I do not know for certain, but have to assume--based on the quality of the writing--that this was written by staff, and approved by Clancy.

So....my Clancy reading is restricted to his pre 2002 stuff.  If I want a good thriller, I pick up Fredrick Forsyth, (Dogs of War, Day of the Jackal), or John LeCarre (Smiley's People).  For just plain fun, pick up Ken Follet, ( Key to Rebbecca, The Eye of the Needle).


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## TCBF

"I was dismayed to discover that Tom Clancy stopped writing his own books.  He has a "staff" that writes his books, and he does the final edit, fires it off to his publisher, and collects his cheque."

- He has to fund two VERY expensive divorces - to the same woman, I believe.


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## Colin Parkinson

I just finished reading the “Cardinal at the Kremlin” actually parts of it were not bad and reminded me a little of the “George Smiley” series of spy thrillers. I don’t buy any of his books new, just pick them up at garage sales, thrift shops for $1 read them on the airplane and then give them away. 

A lot of the military novels are quite fixed in their plot lines with the author focusing more on the details of the battles or focused on the technical aspects of the equipment. I did read a lot of Alexander Kent and I think Douglas Reeman who wrote books around interesting British warships, I always skipped the standard love angle parts.

Tom Clancy is like Farley Mowat, writes a lot but does not let facts get in the way of a good story. Mind you Farley is a veteran and I have a book called the "the regiment" which  have to read.


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## Kat Stevens

As for movie versions of Clancy books, I think Hollywood should have stuck with Baldwin to play Ryan throughout the series, for continuities sake., Red October, Red Storm, and Cardinal are far and away my faves.  For modern war fiction, I prefer Harold Coyle's stuff; Team Yankee, The Ten Thousand, Sword Point, etc.  More boots on the ground, less spooks behind the mailboxes.

Edited to add: Cauldron by Larry Bond was also adequately asskicking.


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## 17thRecceSgt

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> As for movie versions of Clancy books, I think Hollywood should have stuck with Baldwin to play Ryan throughout the series, for continuities sake., Red October, Red Storm, and Cardinal are far and away my faves.  For modern war fiction, I prefer Harold Coyle's stuff; Team Yankee, The Ten Thousand, Sword Point, etc.  More boots on the ground, less spooks behind the mailboxes.




See now I kinda thought they should have gotten Mr Ford to do HFRO and the rest of them..I thought he was pretty good in Patriot Games...sorta lost it alittle with the script for Clear and Present Danger I thought...writing cheques for choppers an all that...


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## TCBF

Harold Coyle spent seventeen years in the US Army. Still, my favorite is "Red Army" by Ralph Peters


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## 17thRecceSgt

TCBF said:
			
		

> Harold Coyle spent seventeen years in the US Army. Still, my favorite is "Red Army" by Ralph Peters



Good read?  I will have to check for that one at the used book store next to the HQ.


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## Centurian1985

TCBF said:
			
		

> He has to fund two VERY expensive divorces - to the same woman, I believe.



Sorry, not true...

Wife #1 = Wanda King
Wife #2 = Alexandra Marie Llewellyn
http://www.biblio.com/authors/605/Tom_Clancy_Biography.html


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## Centurian1985

Signalman150 said:
			
		

> I was dismayed to discover that Tom Clancy stopped writing his own books.  He has a "staff" that writes his books, and he does the final edit, fires it off to his publisher, and collects his cheque. As ridiculous as it sounds, it immediately explained the outlandish plots, the reliance on "technical" stuff to fill copy, and the generally uneven narrative style.  Tom Clancy is a good writer: no question.  But he sold out and became a branded industry instead of a novelist.



Yeah, he sold, out, but hes a rich SOB now, even if the two ex's do take a big chunk of it. 

This line however, from his Wikipedia entry, gave me quite a few chuckles: "Clancy fans cite intricate plots, attention to detail and technical accuracy in military and intelligence topics".  Im sorry but technical detail is not the same thing as credibility, which many of the books he 'approves' these days lack.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Clancy is a hack, pure and simple.  His books are so full of techno-jargon, and annoying sub-plots that they're hard to stay focus on.  It literally took me 3 years to finish Rainbow Six.  I read it for a while, put it down for months, read a few more pages, got bored with it, put it down for another few months.

Besides, military fiction isn't nearly as interesting as military fact.  You want a good read?  Bravo Two Zero.  Now there's a good book.  Jarhead is another good one (read the book, forget you saw the movie if you did happen to see it).  But if you want good military FICTION, Big Red One is very good (though it is based on factual events, characters and dialogue is all fiction).


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## GAP

Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> Clancy is a hack, pure and simple.  His books are so full of techno-jargon, and annoying sub-plots that they're hard to stay focus on.  It literally took me 3 years to finish Rainbow Six.  I read it for a while, put it down for months, read a few more pages, got bored with it, put it down for another few months.



Uhh...millions of books sold, read, traded, and he's a hack because you can't focus on the storyline.....ok....


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Clearly someone needs to be educated on the definition of the word 'hack'.

It's basically a commercial writer- someone who exploits his artistic ability in order to gain profit.  It has nothing to do with whether he's a good writer or not.  Like the equivilant of an artistic assembly line.  His 'art' is actually his 'product'.  He's a hack because he mass produces his work for the sole purpose of profit.


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## GAP

I am well aware of the definition of hack, as I am aware of the definition of opinion


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Well, if you WERE aware of the definition of hack, then your original response to my message is completely irrelivant...in fact, it just bolsters my point.  Millions of copies sold and etc.  So you're agreeing with me he's a hack....which I doubt was your original intent.  I think your arguement against me isn't over the fact that he's a hack, which he is by definition, just that I don't have the patience to read a book full of nonesense.


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## Kat Stevens

But you define revisionist history like Bravo 2-0 as good writing?  I suppose as fiction goes, it beats Mac Bolan....barely.


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## GAP

. :rofl:


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Good writing?  Maybe not.  More interesting?  Damn skippy.  As for it being 'revisionist history' as you put it, I don't think either of us has any authority to say whether the events took place as they did or did not.  It's McNab's word versus the word of the other guys who gave their accounts.  Unless YOU were there personally, I don't think you have much to say on that topic.

The point I'm trying to make about Clancy is that his purely fiction books, books which he writes to sell and make money (as opposed to tell a story.  And lets be real here, he doesn't write to tell the story, he writes to make money) are not as interesting as books that are made to tell a story, whether that story be completely factual, or simply based around factual events.  Anyway, your free to read the hack if you want.  But you can't convince me (nor vice versa I know) that Clancy's books are better than any of the other books I mentioned.



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> But you define revisionist history like Bravo 2-0 as good writing?  I suppose as fiction goes, it beats Mac Bolan....barely.


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## Kat Stevens

"It's McNab's word versus the word of the other guys who gave their accounts.  Unless YOU were there personally, I don't think you have much to say on that topic."


No, I wasn't there.  However I have seen numerous interviews with men who served with McNab in the desert, and they unanimously say the same thing:  He screwed the pooch on the whole op from the word jump.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> No, I wasn't there.  However I have seen numerous interviews with men who served with McNab in the desert, and they unanimously say the same thing:  He screwed the pooch on the whole op from the word jump.



That much I agree with- But the fact that the operation was a shit sandwich from the get-go, and that McNabb may have written himself in a much better light (as he did, I have absolutely no doubt), has no bearing on my opinion of the legitimacy of the story.  The operation happened, and likely much of what was described in the book occurred (albeit modified for greater dramatic effect I'm sure).  And as far as I'm concerned, a story like that has way more weight, than a story written by some dude who sits in an office all day whose never been in actual combat, has never served with a combat outfit (even an auxilary outfit!) and has likely never had his life threatened.


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## Kat Stevens

So now we're going to move this into the realm of "been there, done that, must be better qualified to comment on it"?  By the way, I don't disagree with your assessment of Clancy's stuff, anything after Clear and Present Danger was utter bloated keyboard diarrhea.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> So now we're going to move this into the realm of "been there, done that, must be better qualified to comment on it"?



No, not necessarily, but I think it's safe to assume that those who HAVE been there and have done that are better qualified to make an opinion on something.  Like, would you trust somebody who has watched every episode of CSI, CSI: Miami and CSI: New York to do a forensic investigation at a crime scene, or would you rather trust the trained Forensic pathologist who has been educated to do that job, and has done that job many times before?  

Same with literature I think.


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## Kat Stevens

Okay, I give, you have all the answers...


"Same with literature I think"

Why?  I enjoy Stephen King's books. They'll never win a Nobel Prize for literature, but they're a decent way to kill a rainy Saturday afternoon.   As far as I know, he's never battled aliens, vampires, subterranean cannibalistic clowns, or been on an epic journey through space/time/reality with a six shooter on his hip. Doesn't mean he can't write about it.  Clancy's strength is his ability to spew technojargon and factoids until they obscure the story.  McNab was too busy telling everyone how he was the savior of the SAS, in order to cover his own inadequacy to tell an accurate and honest story... Too much typing, my brain is empty now, nap time.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Sure, they can write about that kinda stuff- but say for example that someone out there really DID fight aliens and vampires and stuff (and could confirm it of course!) and wrote a book about it, I would wager that his story would be more interesting than King's fiction.  Because it'd be a true story.  This is all my opinion though, just how I feel about it.

I just find stories based on fact are more interesting, because you read it you're thinking to yourself "This is so amazing, it actually happened!" whereas with pure fiction, you know none of that happened, that nobody was really there and doing that.  It's like a tease.

But I mean, I won't take away the entertainment merit that Clancy books have.  I just don't find em that interesting because none of it is real...it's just a bunch of words.


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## Kat Stevens

Given, but McNab's book has been clobbered by nearly anyone with more than a passing familiarity with the events in question as a gross overstatement of his wonderfulness to skew the tale in his favour.  Historical fiction at best, and if I'm going to read that, Master and Commander and Sharpe are waaaay higher on my list than McNab.


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## 3rd Herd

I stay away from his Spec Ops stuff but I have enjoyed most of his other books. Red Storm rising is "most likely" based on war scenario's/plans in the early 1980's. Several other author's have done the same and most of these books have had good recommendations from site members. Ralph Peter's Red Army  and Kenneth Macksey's First Clash are two of this genre. As for Andy McNab his version of the events in Bravo Two Zero were examined by some British academics, a documentary was produced and aired and brought some serious questions to light about the actual events.
my two cents


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## armyvern

Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> I just find stories based on fact are more interesting, because you read it you're thinking to yourself "This is so amazing, it actually happened!" whereas with pure fiction, you know none of that happened, that nobody was really there and doing that.  It's like a tease.
> 
> But I mean, I won't take away the entertainment merit that Clancy books have.  I just don't find em that interesting because none of it is real...it's just a bunch of words.


And with these statements above, your definition of the word "hack" and thus your rationalization falls into...let's say... "a million little pieces." (Do not excuse the pun).

Clancy writes for entertainment value...as advertised via "fiction."

McNab has been thouroughly rebuked by all others who were with him....yet he wrote, promoted and endorsed his Bravo 2 Zero work as "non-fiction" to make himself some bucks while the getting was good. Who's the hack?

B2Z was good....*fiction* by a hack and that's it.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

I don't think McNabb falls into the category of hack, given he doesn't mass produce literature like Clancy.  He wrote ONE book, Clancy writes like what?  A dozen a year?  That's a true hack.  The guy is RICH from writing books dude---that is the epitome of a hack.  McNabb wrote a story, fiction or otherwise, ONE story about his supposed involvement with the mission in Iraq.  So sure, you could argue that the man was looking to make a buck off of the book, fine, but insinuating that he is somehow a hack to the level of Clancy is just inane.
  
Look, events may have been skewed in B2Z to make McNabb look like some kind of hero, but the fact remains that the mission did happen.  Maybe not a hundred percent accurately portrayed in the book, but the fact that it did happen means the story is at least based on factual events.  That's WAAAAAY more than I can say for any Clancy TOTAL fiction.  The only thing in those books that are remotely factual is the fact that the stories are based on Earth.  So I don't think it's fair to say B2Z is total fiction...semi-fiction, sure.  Not total fiction though.


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## Kat Stevens

Hemmingway got WAY rich by putting words on paper.  By your definition, a hack.  Chaucer, Shakespear, RL Stevenson, Oscar Wylde, AC Doyle, Victor Hugo, all hacks, it would seem.  Who knew?


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## armyvern

Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> I don't think McNabb falls into the category of hack, given he doesn't mass produce literature like Clancy.  He wrote ONE book, Clancy writes like what?  A dozen a year?  That's a true hack.  The guy is RICH from writing books dude---that is the epitome of a hack.  McNabb wrote a story, fiction or otherwise, ONE story about his supposed involvement with the mission in Iraq.  So sure, you could argue that the man was looking to make a buck off of the book, fine, but insinuating that he is somehow a hack to the level of Clancy is just inane.



Holy crap...for such a McNab enthusiast you'd be interested in visiting this site to see the numerous *ONE* books he has in print:

http://www.tesco.com/books/browse.aspx?N=4294554208

I say again who's the hack? He made his name and his bucks (albeit as thoroughly debunked "non-fiction") with B2Z...and now carries on to this day. He's a hack...but I never said he was stupid.


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Armyvern said:
			
		

> Holy crap...for such a McNab enthusiast you'd be interested in visiting this site to see the numerous *ONE* books he has in print:
> 
> http://www.tesco.com/books/browse.aspx?N=4294554208
> 
> I say again who's the hack? He made his name and his bucks (albeit as thoroughly debunked "non-fiction") with B2Z...and now carries on to this day. He's a hack...but I never said he was stupid.



CHK-CHK! (shotgun cocks-point barrel at self)
Okay I'm an idiot.  He is a hack!  

Welly then...I'm actually not that huge a McNabb fan, B2Z is the only book I've read, and was aware that he wrote so...but uh...yeah.  So, how 'bout them Yankees?


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## Journeyman

*OWNED!!  *  ;D

Say g'night ArmyVern. Your work here is done


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## Pvt. Pukepail

Wow, not enough people to kill in Afghanistan so you gotta do your killin' here now huh?  Good stuff...

Of course, none of that changes the fact that Clancy is still the king of hacks.  The whole point of my original arguement.

So I win...nyah!


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## armyvern

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *OWNED!!  *  ;D
> 
> Say g'night ArmyVern. Your work here is done



Yes Sir!!

Ohhh!! I can go to bed now...After all I gotta go to work in 4 hours....


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## Shamrock

Doesn't Clancy use a lot of ghostwriters for his newer books?


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## Ex-Dragoon

Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> Wow, not enough people to kill in Afghanistan so you gotta do your killin' here now huh?  Good stuff...
> 
> Of course, none of that changes the fact that Clancy is still the king of hacks.  The whole point of my original arguement.
> 
> So I win...nyah!



congrats for that ignorant comment you are on Verbal

PM inbound


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## Pvt. Pukepail

That was actually meant as a joke, I wasn't being serious there.  But I do apologize, it was in bad taste.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Yes it was in bad taste..considering we have folks there dying and going through PTSD because they may have had to kill someone. Thank you for your apology.


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## Signalman150

Shamrock...

In regards to yr comment/question about Clancy using ghost writers, see my post  (number 64) on this thread.  I've heard this from several sources and seen it on the net as well.


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## Shamrock

It's also plastered on the front of his books. He's one of the few authors who gives his ghostwriters front page billing (some don't even give credit).


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## joonrooj

Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> So I don't think it's fair to say B2Z is total fiction...semi-fiction, sure.  Not total fiction though.


The fact still remains that book stores do not have a "semi-fiction" section, and I would rather read an entertaining book written by a man who tells everyone that his stories are fiction, than by a man that tells everyone that his stories are non-fiction when it has been proven that they are, in fact, fiction.


			
				Pte. Pukepail said:
			
		

> Look, events may have been skewed in B2Z to make McNabb look like some kind of hero, but the fact remains that the mission did happen.  Maybe not a hundred percent accurately portrayed in the book, but the fact that it did happen means the story is at least based on factual events.  That's WAAAAAY more than I can say for any Clancy TOTAL fiction.  The only thing in those books that are remotely factual is the fact that the stories are based on Earth.  So I don't think it's fair to say B2Z is total fiction...semi-fiction, sure.  Not total fiction though.


Basically you are saying that something that could happen or might happen is entirely fictional to something that never happened?

Anyways enough of that, I just finished reading the Cardinal and the Kremlin and that is probably my second favorite Clancy book now, after the Hunt for Red October. The Splinter Cell books are pretty good too.

I also like that before he wrote HFRO he was an insurance salesman.


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## 17thRecceSgt

Has anyone read "Shadow Warriors" yet?  I have it on my shelf but didn't get into it yet...


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## Slim

No doubt I will be stoned and burned in effigy for this question but it kind of begs to be asked anyway...

Does it matter whether someone writes many (or one) book...As long as the work is good and the reader is entertained? I agree that FICTION should be labelled as such (I am never more disappointed to find something that I thought was real is, in fact not) and that non-fiction is likewise labelled as such...But I guess then every non-fiction book would have to be proven...

For myself...I happen to like the Tom Clancy books (with the exception of the Netforce series) and do buy his stuff when it comes out. The same with Stephen Hunter (Bob Lee/Earl Swagger) and will happily sit and chew the same covers many times over.

Rant done...Well not really a rant, just a thought or two 

Slim


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## Danjanou

[sidetrack] Have to agree with you on the Bob the Nailer and his Pa series by Stephen Hunter there bud, well researched and written without being waay too technical [/sidetrack]


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## Kr3w

I did a book report on "The Hunt For Red October" and half the class was like WTF??? I personally think he is the best ficton writer for military novels, but my favorite book is "15 Days". If you ever wanna read true personal accounts of our troops in Afganisitan, this book will blow your mind.


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## HItorMiss

15 days is "OK" but it not very accurate......


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## Kr3w

Well, I personally like non-fiction books, and found it every interesting. I have read a few novels about the CF in Afganististan and enjoyed it (15 Days) the most. HOw do you know that it is accurate?


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## aesop081

Kr3w said:
			
		

> HOw do you know that it is accurate?



This should be fun......


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## HItorMiss

I'll be good CDN  

Well first off I know the author in fact I email her occasionaly...

Secondly there is an entrie chapter I was directly involved in, which I have in writing from the author that is well not as accurate as it could have been. It was a rushed job (well written for such a quick turn around) Certain events relayed to her were relayed by 3rd hand info and some outright specualtion.

I applaud her for her work and it is well written it's just not accurate in many case's.

EDIT: Thanks 9er


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## Kr3w

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> This should be fun......


How so? I just never knew, or heard that it wasnt that accurate... Tear me up all you want but I thought it was a good book. Every one has differents tastes


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## HItorMiss

To clarify...

By Directly involved in I don't mean in the same area or on the same battle field I mean litteraly 2 feet away DIRECTLY involved in....

EDIT: 9er again....


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## aesop081

Kr3w said:
			
		

> . Tear me up all you want but I thought it was a good book. Every one has differents tastes



For the record, i thought it was a very good book. I was just watching out for fireworks after you said " How do you know ?" to the guy who was there on the ground.


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## Kr3w

Ahhh... Alright thanks, I didnt mean it in a disrespectful way, just as an inquiry.


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## combatbuddha

I've always thought Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan series was an awesome read....
If you want to comment on repetitive read a few of WEB Griffins books. Half the bloody things are a description of the previous novel in the series..


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## Mario

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> there is an entrie chapter I was directly involved in,



Very cool, may I ask which chapter? ;D

I'm about halfway through Fifteen Days, I consider it a great read.


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## HItorMiss

Sept 3 2006


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## vonGarvin

I, for one (and only one) person, dispise Tom Clancy's writing.  He comes across (to me) as a horse's ass.  ("I withdraw my toast to the end of the war, and toast instead horse's asses everywhere!")


I fell in love with Red Storm Rising.  Loved it.  Then I read Red Storm Rising.  Horrible.  Disgustingly horrible.  (IMHO)  I've never gone back, though I've enjoyed the movies that came out of his books.  At least when you're watching the movie, you don't have to suffer through his simplistic writing style.  Ugh.


 :-X


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## axeman

Red storm rising was a colaberation [sp] wih Larry Bond . the fact has  just come out lately .


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## Kat Stevens

Larry Bond could kick Clancycorp's ass any day, as could Harold Coyle, Ken Follet, and a bunch of others in the genre.


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## CougarKing

KatStevens,

What do you think of Dale Brown then?   ???


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## Kat Stevens

Not familiar with him, I'm afraid.  My recreational reading has been neglected the last few years due to the work load of single daddery.  I just got tired quite early of Clancy's "look how much UFI I can cram into one book, aren't I smart" style.


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## stewacide

I liked his books a lot as a kid, but I eventually wised up to Clancy's hack-e-ness.

Red Storm Rising was my first and still favourite, but of course it's all predicated on the notion that the Soviet Union would, in order to gain control of the Middle East (something smart), pre-emptively attack NATO in Europe!! (something very very dumb!!!) _WHY NOT JUST INVADE THE MIDDLE EAST!?!?!_

aside// I've since read (forget where) a brilliant and infinitely more plausible and chilling alt-history scenario where the Soviets win the Cold War in the '80s by first dismembering Pakistan in concert with India: carving out a greater Afghanistan and independent Balochistan, leaving a cowed Pakistani rump. Assuming the West acquiesces to this fait accompli (not unlikely, particularly with the West blatantly arming the Afghan' mujahideen via Pakistan) the next step is attacking Islamic Iran on the pretext of Iraqi, Azerbaijani, and Baluch irredentist claims. Again, assuming the West doesn't come to the aid of the Ayatollah (that would be pretty difficult!!!), the Soviets are now in effective control of Iraqi and Iranian oil supplies, with the Gulf States likely to fall in line with a Soviet-dominated Middle East. The Soviets can now set the global oil price arbitrarily, and institute a Western oil embargo any time they want, and in so doing have effectively won the Cold War.

I also read most of the Ryan-verse books (Sum of All Fears, Executive Orders, Debt of Honour...) but they all blend together. I remember, in high school, when someone first mentioned a jet liner crashing into a building the morning on 9/11, I asked if they weren't thinking of a Clancy book (the one where the Japanese pilot crashes into the US Capitol; spooky in retrospect).

The last book I read was Rainbow Six, and I stopped reading Clancy book because it was so terrible. It made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER that the eco-terrorists would WANT TO ATTRACT ATTENTION TO THEMSELVES when nothing about their plan required it!!!!! (Just spray the god-damn people with the god-damn virus and be done with it!!!!)

My god, that's without a doubt the dumbest book I ever finished.


----------



## aesop081

stewacide said:
			
		

> _WHY NOT JUST INVADE THE MIDDLE EAST!?!?!_



Did you even read the book ?


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## stewacide

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Did you even read the book ?


 
The better part of 15 years ago 

As I recall Islamic terrorists ruined their oil industry, so to keep from having to beg the West for grain they decide to take Middle Eastern oil, but because they figure that will prompt a response from NATO, they attack NATO pre-emptively and start WW3!!!

So, in this scenario, the Soviets start out with a shitty but surmountable problem - having to show some weakness and go cap-in-hand to the West - then 'trade up' through steps to the absolutely APOCALYPTIC prospect of a war with NATO!!! Clearly someone forgot to inform the Soviet leadership (read: Clancy) that the 'game' is to get the most you can SHORT OF WW3!!!

This is like playing chicken by shooting yourself in the head!


----------

