# MATA and PATA ( Parental Leave )



## army (2 Dec 2002)

Re: maternity leave.





Posted by Hanway from Halifax NS Canada on March 28, 2000 at 06:30:38:


In Reply to: maternity leave. posted by Monica on March 27, 2000 at 19:28:47:



Gee - I‘m not sure but you might have to be pregnant


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## MogoMan (16 Feb 2006)

My wife is non military and is expecting our first child in June.  Can anyone tell me what I am entitled to as far as leave?  I couldn't find anything clear on the DIN.  Apparently every base has a "maternity co-ordinator" ???  I am going to try and track him or her down on base, hopefully its a true position and my chain isn't being yanked.

Anyone recently been on leave recently while their wife hasn't taken advantage of EI or anything?  Does the CF now top up for military members?

MogoMan


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2006)

You haven't been able to find anything on MATA/PATA Leave?  It is all explained there.


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## Gunner98 (16 Feb 2006)

Parental Leave Policy and Entitlements, (QR&O 16.27, DAOD 5001-2 and CBI 205.461, found on Internet at:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch016_e.asp
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5001/2_e.asp
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=205.461&sidecat=22&Chapter=205#205.461


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## Old Cent Hand (26 Jun 2006)

Would you take that leave , if you about to be posted overseas?


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## Patrolman (26 Jun 2006)

I just finished Parental leave in May. If your wife is not drawing UI then you are entitled to 37 weeks. I took six months. It was great but towards the end my wife was realy getting tired of seeing me 24hrs a day. HA!Ha! Take it! It is one of the best benefits the CF has to offer.


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## orange.paint (26 Jun 2006)

Yep I had my kid 3 months ago and I'm just going on it now.Im taking 10 weeks,any longer I would be divored and living in some ****hole country.Can't wait for the 10 weeks though.


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## Eagle_Eye_View (27 Jun 2006)

And with 90% of your salary, thats one of the best benefit the CF offers.


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## Daidalous (28 Jun 2006)

The big secret to taking parental leave is to put a portion of your salary away.  you could end up having problems of being over paid by the military or EI.  And you are going to take a kicking during tax time unless you up what you pay in taxes.


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## orange.paint (24 Sep 2006)

I suggest taking your FULL allotted time the army gives you.That way if you want to go back early you can.I personally being a guy who enjoys working (not  my work) only took 10 weeks thinking that would be enough....well guess what.Back to work tomorrow and I could have taken another 25 weeks....I'm a dumbass.


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## Corvin (9 Jul 2007)

My wife is at home alone and having lots of trouble taking care of things.  Our child (both of our firsts) is not due until the 28th of Sept.  Is there any way to take an early PATA leave and return sooner after the child is born?  or do I have to wait until the baby is born before I can take PATA.  Her doc thinks that it would be benefitial to have me home.


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## kincanucks (9 Jul 2007)

Looks like no.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5001/2_e.asp


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## Rowshambow (9 Jul 2007)

I took PATA leave a few years ago, my understanding (not official) was that in order to be entitled to take PATA leave, the mother (or wife) had to use the first 35 weeks, (If memory serves correctly) before I could take PATA leave, she had to use MAT first! We were both working though and not sure if that has any bearings! During my last child, she was on bed rest and was administered to the hospital quite a few times, I had a very forgiving COC and was able to assist her whenever in need. I would make your COC aware, so they can hopefully help you out when you are in need.


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## 284_226 (9 Jul 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> I took PATA leave a few years ago, my understanding (not official) was that in order to be entitled to take PATA leave, the mother (or wife) had to use the first 35 weeks, (If memory serves correctly) before I could take PATA leave, she had to use MAT first! We were both working though and not sure if that has any bearings! During my last child, she was on bed rest and was administered to the hospital quite a few times, I had a very forgiving COC and was able to assist her whenever in need. I would make your COC aware, so they can hopefully help you out when you are in need.



That may have been the case, but I can tell you that right now, the father can take PATA as soon as the baby is born - but not before.  I was inquiring with the MATA/PATA clerk today to lay out the groundwork for my own PATA claim.

However, for the original poster - your situation sounds like it might be a good candidate for compassionate leave under QR&O 16.17/CFAO 16-1.  Unfortunately, only 14 calendar days leave can be granted by a CO, and 30 calendar days by an officer commanding a command.  Perhaps some creative leave planning could be arranged; every other day, for example?

Definitely let the CoC know, though - they may be able to offer flexible working arrangements or offer other assistance.


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## PO2FinClk (9 Jul 2007)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch016_e.asp 

Chap 16.27 Para 3, 4, 5

No entitlement to Parental Leave entitlement exists until the child is born, and I suspect this applicable to EI as well.


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## 284_226 (9 Jul 2007)

PO2FinClk said:
			
		

> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch016_e.asp
> 
> Chap 16.27 Para 3, 4, 5
> 
> No entitlement to Parental Leave entitlement exists until the child is born, and I suspect this applicable to EI as well.



Under EI, the mother is allowed to start MAT leave up to 8 weeks prior to the expected due date - however, this tidbit doesn't help the father at all in this particular situation.

For Corvin:  Some additional information - there isn't anything stipulating that one can't take successive (or nearly successive) periods of compassionate leave, assuming your situation qualifies for it.  In 2001, when my father was terminally ill with asbestosis and cancer, I was granted 14 days compassionate leave to visit him while he was seriously ill, and then granted another 14 days compassionate leave when he died 8 weeks later.  If your case is strong, successive 30-day compassionate leave periods might be enough to tide you over, combined with annual leave if necessary.  Something to bring up to the CoC.


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## PO2FinClk (12 Jul 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Under EI, the mother is allowed to start MAT leave up to 8 weeks prior to the expected due date - however, this tidbit doesn't help the father at all in this particular situation.


I did not comment on it due to its' inapplicability. 

As CO's are left discretionary authority for Compassionate Leave this could be a perfect avenue for you (Corvin).  As others have mentioned do advise your CoC of this issue and perhaps get the "doc" to write a letter stating your presence would be of benefit if not essential. The letter from the doc could in turn assist in getting additonal leave granted.


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## Angry_Johnny (28 Feb 2008)

Hi all,

     New to the forums here, and am looking for some slight help.

     Background:  Wife lost daughter after birth early mid '07 and is now high risk pregnancy and on strict bed rest, due Apr 19 08.

     I have already used all of my annual leave (on the advice of my chain of command) before pushing a memo up and getting a weeks compassionate leave from the BDE Padre.

     I am now finding that the chain is seemingly not to keen on helping this situation out.  Time off from work to deal with issues at home is a sure struggle, and no compassionate was to be entertained / supported from my troop, until I had used my annual.

     So with no annual leave left and having used one leave block of compassionate, and not being able to even trust that I will not be tasked on say a weekend (which are the only days I have to myself to care for her), or deployed:

 IS THERE ANYTHING OTHER than another compassionate memo that I can put up?

     If my chain of command's advice to me was to take my annual first, can i redress this?  anyone have an example of this -denied or otherwise?

    My first step is always to talk with my chain, but at the moment I am not trusting of the support or information I am getting.

     I understand the CFAO's on compassionate, and annual and think this advice was a joke, but this issue was of great importance to me, and I did what I had to do to be able to leave work, and care for my wife, but would like to see if I can get the annual days back (though i would simply want to use them again to care for her, so I am sure it really wouldn't work out any different, other than "administratively".

     Any help is appreciate..!!!


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## PO2FinClk (29 Feb 2008)

Unfortunately, Compassionate is the only avenue in this case other then requesting LWOP. I can only suggest you speak with either the Padre or Social Work Office about this issue as they are likely the only ones who can push to have you granted any additional leave. If all else fails, there is always the Ombudsman's office.

As far as receovering your Annual, it is not likely and as you state would only use them to care for your wife again. Just get compassionate for the same purpose and save yourself an enormous hassle.


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## Southern Boy (29 Feb 2008)

Go see the Padre or Social Worker and request compasionate lve. This is probably your best avenue. Best of luck and I hope everything turns out OK with your new family!!


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## Angry_Johnny (29 Feb 2008)

Just the avenue I thought I would have to go down.

Thanks for the INT/suggestions, and the well wishes!!

Will be doing this today.


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## Sunny_Day (5 Mar 2008)

I have a mbr on PATA leave, (father) as PATA is new to me I was wondering if anyone had dealt with this and had any lessons learned. Having read a lot of the publications but was hoping for some additional in site for the supervisor side. Does this member actually belong to me still or the orderly room? I honestly feel pretty disconnected in the process. As you can tell I am at a bit of a loss and could use some wisdom from anyone that has some to share.

Thanks 

Have a Sunny Day :skull:  :skull:


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## BernDawg (5 Mar 2008)

We have encountered this in the past and our solution was for us to write their PER based on their performance up to the point they went on leave.  PATA is not allowed to affect their career progression so we had to rate them against their peers as if they were in the shop based upon witnessed performance prior to and after going on PATA.
I guess to answer your question it would seem that you should look after your own and write their PER. (caveat... units do differ in the SOP's when it comes to this so check through your CoC)


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## BinRat55 (5 Mar 2008)

As BernDawg stated above, it's no different than a member going on a tour.  You have to write a PER and you cannot use anything from the tour in that PER - you never had that member for 6 months.  That being said, the only time anyone belongs to "the orderly room" is either SPHL, BTL or PRETC. You do your best to write, keep in mind that you are allowed to use the sentence "Cpl Bloggins proceeded on PATA on 12 Jan 08, expertly completing all outstanding projects in a highly efficient manner aleviating this units need for a PATA backfill..." yada yada... get the drift?


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## Sunny_Day (5 Mar 2008)

Yup got it, its just as I had figured. I just did not want to find out after the fact that I had missed out or had the wrong process.

Cheers
Sunny


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## BinRat55 (6 Mar 2008)

That's great.  Just asking the question means you care enough about this member's career.  There are some supervisors who couldn't be bothered.  "Someone else will do it...", "I already have 4 to do, can't someone else do it?" - I believe that if every PER drafter put as much effort into writing a PER as they do scrambling to their computer to view that day's Sunshine Girl, we would all be much better off!!

Good luck with your PER(s)...


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## MdB (12 Jul 2009)

I was wondering what happens to statutory days during the parental leave.  Are they lost and forgotten, are they paid or transferred as annuals?  Is there any reference I could find in the CFAOs?

Thx for the info.


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## George Wallace (12 Jul 2009)

Sorry.  You are on Leave.  You can not claim any other Leaves while on it.  No Special that may be granted to your fellow Unit members.  No Short.  No Statutory.  You have submitted you Leave and are fairly well stuck with it.  You could always cancel your Leave and then claim back any days you may have been called in for Duty, but you can not claim back another type of Leave if you are already on Leave.

Besides, while on PATA Lve, you are not collecting the same pay as you would on Lve otherwize, thus trying to claim back other Lve is only creating an Administrative nightmare both for the CF and Employment Insurance Agency/Sevices Canada.


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## MdB (12 Jul 2009)

Makes sense.  Is there any reference I could look up? DAOD probably?

Thanks for the information.


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## PMedMoe (12 Jul 2009)

Try DAOD 5001-2.  It doesn't specifically mention stat holidays, however, if you are on Parental Leave and are granted Sick Leave, your Parental Leave is *not* extended by the period of Sick Leave.

DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits


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## Biohazardxj (12 Jul 2009)

You may also want to look at the new CF Leave Policy Manual.  Do a search, I believe there is a link to it on this forum.

When on MATA or PATA you will also lose 2 days annual for each full month you are on said leave.  (ie, if you normally get 25 days annual a year and you are on PATA from 01 Jul to 31 Aug, you annual leave entitlement will be reduced by 4 for that fiscal year)


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## Cronicbny (9 Mar 2011)

I am presently on PATA leave until the end of May. My EXPRES test expires on 18 Mar and I was curious if there were any regulations that would prevent me from going in and doing my test - or if there are liability issues if I get injured while doing it (unlikely, but CYA).

As I am on PATA I don't have access to the DIN, was just hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this.

Many thanks.

LK


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## PuckChaser (9 Mar 2011)

If you call your local PSP staff, I'm sure they've heard of this before and can point you in the right direction.


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## Occam (9 Mar 2011)

Geez, that's a good one.  You get a star for asking a question that's probably not been asked already!   ;D

There are a few policies in play here.  You can only be recalled from PATA/MATA leave for an "imperative military requirement".  DAOD 5001-2 lists examples of valid "imperative military requirements", such as:

_- a house hunting trip under QR&O article 209.832, House Hunting Trip; 

- travelling time provided under QR&O Chapter 209, Transportation and Travelling Expenses for a posting; 

- Special Leave (Relocation) (CANFORGEN 054/99 ADM(HR-Mil) 042 181807Z Jun 99); and 

- the period of time taken prior to a posting to complete out clearance, normally not more than one or two days._

My guess is that a CO would have a hard time justifying that an Expres test is an imperative military requirement.

As for doing the test while on LWOP - you aren't allowed to participate in the CF Sports program while on LWOP for liability reasons, therefore I would guess that the same would apply to the Expres test.

End result?  I'm willing to bet you'll end up with a "not tested" dot on your PER, with the requisite explanatory statement in the narrative.

Have you checked with the PSP staff?  Your chain of command?


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## 211RadOp (9 Mar 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> End result?  I'm willing to bet you'll end up with a "not tested" dot on your PER, with the requisite explanatory statement in the narrative.
> 
> Have you checked with the PSP staff?  Your chain of command?



If he has been on PATA for an extended period of time, he will no doubt get a PERX and there is no dot for fitness testing on the PERX form.


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## Occam (9 Mar 2011)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> If he has been on PATA for an extended period of time, he will no doubt get a PERX and there is no dot for fitness testing on the PERX form.



Max parental leave is 37 weeks.  52-37 = 15 weeks, or just shy of four months reporting period.  

The CFPAS manual says "There is no defined minimum observation period for a CFPAS Annual PER. However, in those rare instances where observation is so limited as to render it impossible to accurately report upon a person's performance and potential, then the unit CO may consider rendering a PER Exemption."

In practice, is 4 months too short a period to accurately report on performance?  Tough call.  If the OP took less than 37 weeks leave, it becomes an even tougher call.  It's only two points, though.


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## Cronicbny (9 Mar 2011)

Thanks for the replies so far.

To clarify, my CoC is not telling me to come in and do it - my supervisor was just letting me know it was coming due and suggested I go do it if i could.

I have contacted PSP staff and am awaiting calls back from them and NRCC.

Will advise - thanks again for the replies.

LK


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## CountDC (9 Mar 2011)

Well I just returned last month from pata leave and was not allowed to do the expres test while on it.  I will have a PERX vice a PER.  15 weeks is not a long period to observe someone on a PER when you have 7 weeks prior and 8 weeks after the pata period.  If it was a case of having the 15 weeks in the reporting period all together then I could see maybe doing a PER.

Oh - in actual fact often the week prior to the start of PATA is a write off too as the baby is born prior to the PATA start date and the member takes leave for the remaining of the week.  This is as they start PATA leave on the Sunday following the the birth. So in my case instead of 7 weeks prior they actually had 6 weeks as we went to the hospital on Monday, birth was the Tue, leave Wed to Fri and PATA start Sun. Add that my supervisor for the two periods have changed and it becomes pretty hard to do a PER.


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## Occam (9 Mar 2011)

Yes, I see your point.  Agree completely.


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## Cronicbny (9 Mar 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Well I just returned last month from pata leave and was not allowed to do the expres test while on it.  I will have a PERX vice a PER.  15 weeks is not a long period to observe someone on a PER when you have 7 weeks prior and 8 weeks after the pata period.



I suspect that NRCC and PSP will come back with much the same - especially given Occam's point that members on LWOP cannot participate in PSP Sports progammes.

I hope I don't get a PERX - I started PATA in late November so there are a good 7 3/4 months there....


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## Chilme (9 Mar 2011)

CF Pers need to be on duty to conduct a CF ExPres test.  If you're on any kind of leave, you're not on duty and therefore, can not test.


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## s_other (9 Mar 2011)

Chilme said:
			
		

> CF Pers need to be on duty to conduct a CF ExPres test.  If you're on any kind of leave, you're not on duty and therefore, can not test.



Absolutely.  And as already mentioned, your CO must recall you for "imperative military reasons," which does not include an Expres Test.  That "military reason" must also last a minimum of five days.  You will not have to perform an Expres Test.


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## Sparkplugs (29 Mar 2011)

Just a quick question here, as this is my first pregnancy and all of this admin is confusing the hell out of me.

With regards to payroll deductions, my clerk here told me that they would all be ceased as soon as I started on maternity/parental leave, so I had to make alternate arrangements to pay everything.  However, when I spoke to the lady at SISIP, she said that there were a ton of people who had SILP loans, or Canex loans, and as long as your pay covered it, they couldn't force you to stop your deductions/allotments.  I know my pay from the military is reduced, as the bulk of your mat/parental leave pay is paid by EI, but I will have more than enough top-up pay still coming through to cover everything I have coming off of there.  Anyway, enough blather, does anyone have any personal experience with this?   Thanks for your info.

Also -- just so you know, 'maternity combats' may well be an oxymoron, but my belly has grown to the point where I've outgrown the fat guy pants from supply, and I have to wear the pants, anyway.  They're some ugly!!!  Not like this is a fashion show, but you'd think they could find a stretchy green fabric instead of making the crotch of the pants black!!  Talk about making people give you funny looks.   ;D


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## s_other (29 Mar 2011)

As long as your military "top up" can cover your allotments and deductions, they can stay on your pay while you're on Mata/Pata.  You have to remember, though, that the top-up is a fluctuating number based on the amount of days in the month.  Since EI will sometimes pay you more, DND will pay you less and vice-versa.  So if you only have a $20-$100 wiggle room between your pay and deductions, the clerk is going to ask you make some adjustments.

Some things (like SISIP loans) must continue to come off your pay.  Canex is a different story, however.  The reason you're asked to find an alternate method for paying a Canex loan is because Canex actually reserves their money a few days before pay drops.  What happens - usually at the end of the leave - is that there will not be enough on your DND pay to cover the Canex loan and will result in a nil payment.

A clerk can't force you to cease your deductions, but when you don't get a paycheque remember they tried to warn you.


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## Sparkplugs (30 Mar 2011)

s_other said:
			
		

> As long as your military "top up" can cover your allotments and deductions, they can stay on your pay while you're on Mata/Pata.  You have to remember, though, that the top-up is a fluctuating number based on the amount of days in the month.  Since EI will sometimes pay you more, DND will pay you less and vice-versa.  So if you only have a $20-$100 wiggle room between your pay and deductions, the clerk is going to ask you make some adjustments.
> 
> Some things (like SISIP loans) must continue to come off your pay.  Canex is a different story, however.  The reason you're asked to find an alternate method for paying a Canex loan is because Canex actually reserves their money a few days before pay drops.  What happens - usually at the end of the leave - is that there will not be enough on your DND pay to cover the Canex loan and will result in a nil payment.
> 
> A clerk can't force you to cease your deductions, but when you don't get a paycheque remember they tried to warn you.



Thanks for the info -- I don't have a ton of allotments or anything, it's under a hundred bucks per pay, so I'll have plenty to cover it.  I appreciate your answer, cheers!


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## Zoomie (30 Mar 2011)

When you cease your mess dues - an NPF function these days - it will cease everything that you pay to NPF.   I thought this was silly and have refused to give NPF a cheque to cover the CANEX plan - we'll see what happens when I come back to work in June.  NPF hasn't contacted me yet either.


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## Sparkplugs (1 Apr 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> When you cease your mess dues - an NPF function these days - it will cease everything that you pay to NPF.   I thought this was silly and have refused to give NPF a cheque to cover the CANEX plan - we'll see what happens when I come back to work in June.  NPF hasn't contacted me yet either.



Well that seems ridiculous.  Why can't they separate everything? 

When they ceased mess dues for when I deployed, my Canex plan kept running -- if they want to stop payment on everything, methinks maybe they should start telling people that they can't have a Canex plan if they're going to be on parental, y'know, when you _sign up _ for the plan?  Sheesh.


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## Biohazardxj (1 Apr 2011)

When you go over seas your banking is stopped, and the pay that you would normally see in the bank on the 15th and 30th is turned into a split allotment.  Normal debits such as your canex plan come out of the monies that are left on your pay account, just like your allowances.  That is why you had cash in theater.

When you go on Mata/Pata your don't get paid.  Period.  You get a top up allowance.  That is why when you get back off of Mata/Pata you have to pay back all that income tax for that period, and buy back your pension etc.

So, I would hazard a guess that if you didn't give NPF a cheque that in Jun you will have a negative balance on your pay guide, and you wont get paid for a while.   I think you should go talk to you Mata/Pata clerk.  This should have been explained to you at the start.


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## Sparkplugs (2 Apr 2011)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> When you go over seas your banking is stopped, and the pay that you would normally see in the bank on the 15th and 30th is turned into a split allotment.  Normal debits such as your canex plan come out of the monies that are left on your pay account, just like your allowances.  That is why you had cash in theater.
> 
> When you go on Mata/Pata your don't get paid.  Period.  You get a top up allowance.  That is why when you get back off of Mata/Pata you have to pay back all that income tax for that period, and buy back your pension etc.
> 
> So, I would hazard a guess that if you didn't give NPF a cheque that in Jun you will have a negative balance on your pay guide, and you wont get paid for a while.   I think you should go talk to you Mata/Pata clerk.  This should have been explained to you at the start.



I did speak to my mata/pata clerk when this all began, but I was given some conflicting information, and the last three times I tried to go in there and speak to someone, the clerk's been on leave with no one to replace her, so I thought I would check to see if anyone knew here.  I will talk to NPF before I leave, but I am hoping they'll be able to work out payments with me, hence why I signed up for a payment plan in the first place.  If I could afford to dish out all of that money at once, I would have done that to begin with.  I just think maybe this is something you should be warned about before you sign the canex plan contract.

Thanks for your info.


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## Stevenpfo (14 Sep 2011)

Hello all. My wife recently had a baby and we've been looking at myself taking parental leave. I know the time frame and length I can take it it in but had a few other questions. 

I receive 93% of my "Weekly" pay. What does this include though? I've read that my pension is not taken off and I repay that after I return to work. I've also heard I loose my field pay as well. Do I keep my PLD?

What is the transition from CF pay to EI like? Is there/can there be a space in between the two where I don't get paid?  

I know I will have to set something up with the Canex for my bill from them. What about my PMQ?

I'm a MCpl who lives in Edmonton who's getting the second level of field pay if that helps at all.

Thanks in advance. I could not find the answers on CF websites or while searching on this site.


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## Sparkplugs (14 Sep 2011)

I can help you with some of this -- not all, but a couple of things.  I just had a baby in July and I'm on mata/pata leave now.

Your pension is not paid while you're on parental, but it will have to be paid off when you get back, so you can have them take double pension payments for a year, or they'll take a lump sum. Don't know anything about field pay or PLD though, sorry...  I'm pulling in a little bit more money than I was before I was on leave -- not paying the pension is great, but I'm putting the extra money away, so when it comes time for them to double up pension payments, I'm not taken short.

The transition is not awesome if you're paycheque to paycheque.  There's a 2 week waiting period with EI where you're not paid at all, then it takes another 2(ish) weeks to get your first payment.  During this time the military gives you a set amount, but it's not much, as they don't want to overpay you.  I think they gave me about $400 a pay for that month.  Once you get your first EI stub, you bring it in and they'll give you any money you're owed, but you're still out that 2 weeks of EI.  

Your Canex bill -- You'd go speak to the people at NPF (non-public funds)and bring a void cheque, and they'll give you a form to fill out, and the payments will come out of your bank account instead of your paycheque.  (They'll come out only once a month though, instead of each payday.)  Your PMQ won't change -- when you go to see the mata/pata clerk, they set up your pay taking into account any prior allotments you have.  You can have allotments on there, the caveat being that your military 'top-up' pay has to be enough to cover them all.

For reference on EI, you'll be receiving $822 every two weeks.  That's the current max EI rate as of last week.  It's not the same pay periods as the military pay, necessarily, as you get it every two weeks, which sometimes works out to three times a month, and the military pay still comes on the 15th and last day of the month.

Hopefully that helps...  Oh, one other thing.  EI doesn't tax you enough for your EI payments, so the orderly room should ask you if you want to pay extra taxes each month.  I recommend that you do it, unless you're okay with having to pay a lump sum at tax time.  I think I have them taking an extra $200 a month, and that should cover it.  I know a friend of mine didn't get the extra taxes taken off, and she had to pay a couple thousand bucks come tax season.

Anyway, any other questions, feel free to ask.  I'm a spec1 Cpl, so our pay scales aren't the same, and I don't get field pay, but the EI stuff is the same.  PM me if you like.  Good luck, and congrats on the little one! 



			
				Stevenpfo said:
			
		

> Hello all. My wife recently had a baby and we've been looking at myself taking parental leave. I know the time frame and length I can take it it in but had a few other questions.
> 
> I receive 93% of my "Weekly" pay. What does this include though? I've read that my pension is not taken off and I repay that after I return to work. I've also heard I loose my field pay as well. Do I keep my PLD?
> 
> ...


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## s_other (14 Sep 2011)

Stevenpfo did a good job.  I'll just fill in the blanks.

Your LDA (field pay) *will* cease.  Your PLD *will not*.

The pension part is a bit scrambled there.  Stevenpfo is correct in stating that your pension contribution is not taken off your pay while on Parental leave, and that when you return you need to pay it back.  You can choose to take it off in one lump sum (your Mata/Pata clerk won't have a firm number for you until you return from leave, but for your rank and pay level I'd estimate at $300 for every month), or the pay system will automatically take off the monthly amount for every month you take off.  So if you take five months of Parental leave, the pay system will deduct that extra $300 for the next five months when you return to work.

A few things are affected on your pay: LDA (already discussed), pension (already discussed), taxes (I'll explain it in one second), and allotments (Canex, etc).  As was previously stated, you'll need to visit NPF to set up a different way for them to collect your Canex plan payments.  Everything else (PMQ, other allotments as long as they don't exceed your new monthly pay, etc.) remains the same.

Stevenpro made an excellent point on taxes.  While on Parental leave, you're not taxed at a high enough rate relevant to your salary.  So what happens is when you do your taxes in April, CRA is going to ding you a fair amount.  Listen to your clerk when they offer to take off extra taxes - it'll save you a world of frustration come April.

We have a pretty good system in place for working out member's pay when they go on Mata/Pata; we're not going to overpay you.  The EI transition and pay is dependent on several factors.  If you have never claimed EI before - and your wife is not claiming it for the same child - you will be subject to a two-week waiting period where EI will give you nothing.  For those two weeks, the military will pay you 93% of your salary.  If you have claimed EI before - or your wife is claiming it as well for that child - you are not subject to the two-week waiting period and you immediately receive that percentage of your pay the CF will pay out (I couldn't even guess at a number because I don't know how much your PMQ is or any other allotments).  

It does take a long time for EI to get rolling.  From the date you apply for EI (your first date of LWOP, not a single day before) we advise members to give it 4-8 weeks.  Mine personally took six weeks, and I was a Pte (2nd incentive) at Christmas time.  My best advice to you is that if you are a paycheque-to-paycheque member, try and have an extra $1000-$1500 saved up to save you some grief until EI kicks in.  EI will back pay you to your first eligible date, but once again, you actually have to wait for them to process your claim.

If you need anything in there clarified, just let me know.


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## Sparkplugs (15 Sep 2011)

Sorry about the pension thing -- me being a female, and taking maternity as well as parental leave, gives me an entire year off, hence why I'll have to pay double pension for a year when I go back...  

And as far as how long you actually have to wait for EI, mine took just shy of 4 weeks, that was just over two months ago, so fairly recent.  But yeah, it can take anywhere from 3-8 weeks, depending on the demand and manpower of the EI system.  Best to have money put away, if at all possible.


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## lauralaner (11 Dec 2011)

I've searched and haven't found anything particularly relevant (besides a few inconspicuous mentionings) 

I am due to return to work and I have spoken with my Superintendent Clerk.  He had stated that I am due for my early promotion upon my return.  A few weeks pass and I was speaking to another clerk that the Chief Clerk has denied said promotion due to the fact that I have been on Maternity/Parental for the last 12 months.  The logic was stated that my LWOP does not count towards any promotional time in.  However, I had previously understood that I was not to be "penalized" for my time away.  As small background information, I have been in for nearly 4 years.  I am viewed as strong in my field and had the pregnancy not happened I would have been granted the early promotion.  Even if I'm not granted the early promotion, they are trying to even delay my 4 year Cpl promotion due to the LWOP for maternity/parental.


I do know that CFAO 49-4, 24 states:
"24. LWOP granted on enrolment shall not count as qualifying time for promotion. Effective 1 Jun 86, all other LWOP of 120 days duration or less shall count for promotion. LWOP of a duration of greater than 120 days may count as qualifying service in total or in part as specified by the approving authority of the leave. When a promotion instruction contains the name of a member who is on LWOP, the CO shall advise NDHQ/DPCAOR of the circumstances including commencement and termination dates. NDHQ/DPCAOR will advise the CO whether the promotion will stand, will be cancelled, or will be deferred."

Also, bearing in mind that I have no idea where I got this from, though I have a hint that it was a printout from 1 December 2009, a publication that supersedes Chapter 17 of A-PM-245...
(It is a printout among my military references)
The print out states that "having met all prerequisites for promotion, may be promoted", it carries on saying that the medical category I was on is irrelevant (due to being physically fit prior to pregnancy).  It also states under "Promotions and Pay Incentives" that "1787. A promotion affecting pay and allowances or a pay incentive awarded while the CF mbr is on maternity or parental lve will affect the calculation of EI or QPIP benefits and MATA and/of PATA. The mbr's URS is responsible to action any promotions and/or incentive awards in HRMS, except that for:
a. Ref F mbrs, HRMS will trigger pay and CCPS will automatically calculate any changes to a rate of pay and re-calculate all allowances.  The responsibility of generating an amended ROE remains with the mbr's URS;" and (b) which is Res F (not applicable) 

Though I interpret this as if the promotion took place, or pay incentive increase, during the LWOP which would affect the EI benefits, as well as the calculations for the Allowances.  Nothing stated affects that the time in is directly influenced by the maternity/parental leave.

I acknowledge that I am receipt of allowances when I return to work, (LDA) which the leave will affect the LDA points calculation, I have not seen anything that this would affect any further or immediate promotion opportunities.  

Would anyone have any additional information regarding this?  Thank you greatly in advance.


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## PuckChaser (11 Dec 2011)

Early promotion is not a right, its a privilege. One of my Cpls was kept from being advance promoted because we didn't think he was ready. I do not believe they can hold you from your Cpls if you have the requisite 60 months in service, as MATA/PATA is not supposed to delay promotion.

Is there not a CFAO directly related to MATA/PATA leave? It may have the clarifications you require.


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## lauralaner (11 Dec 2011)

I do understand that early promotion is a privilege, however wouldn't it be counter-intuitive that I was in line to receive my early promotion due to good performance and that now that I should not receive it would be that my time off while having a baby would be a negative consequence of that? Though personally I do not mind, I'm happy to get back to work, regardless of promotion or not.
The point I'm getting at is that they are saying that I will not hit the requisite 60 months of service, because it is as though my entire 12 months does not count.  So once I hit the actual 60 months, it would only be 48 months.  

I did check the CFAO's and there isn't any regulation that clearly states the correlation between LWOP and promotion in regards to Mata/Pata.  I do believe that there my have been a Canforgen regarding this but at the moment I don't have access. 

Thanks for your reply, I will double check the CFAO's in case I missed something.


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## navymich (11 Dec 2011)

Here is the DAOD for Maternity/Parental Leave.  It has a bunch of references at the end of it that may help you in your search too.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5001-2-eng.asp


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## CountDC (12 Dec 2011)

have you talked to your clerk?  Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.


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## MJP (12 Dec 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.



Agreed on the the time still counting and not holding back a promotion when it is due.  Being accelerated though is not protected and is entirely up to the CoC regardless of how counter intuitive it may be to the OP. 

 For the OP, I wouldn't hold my breathe for the promotion but just go back to the high standard of work that you had before.  That speaks volumes of a soldier and  the promotion will come.  Hopefully if you are one of the good ones, sooner rather later. (Don't read too much into it, I am not insinuating that you aren't a good one.  I just think hard work should be rewarded)


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around... I went on parental leave in August 2011 and as of Sept 2011, I hit my 4yrs in and was eligible for my Cpls. I came back to work in May 2012 and received my promotion in June. I have received my pay statement for End July and was retro paid for June and July, however, I am being told that because I took parental leave, I am not due for the retro pay as of Sept. 

Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, however... I have a female friend who joined the same day as me and we did BMQ together. She took parental leave for the same time frame as I did (Aug to May). She just got her retro pay dated as of Sept 2011, resulting in a VERY large pay difference. 

My unit is telling me that my retro pay is only to the 1st of June... Why would that be??? And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Thanks for any help on this!


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## aesop081 (26 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?



Have you considered that you're friend's case might be the one who was done wrong, not you.

I would find out the regulations before i drag your friend in.


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

Yes, I have considered that. That would be a very last resort. I mainly want to see in some form of written documentation as to where they came up with the information.


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## PuckChaser (26 Jul 2012)

Sounds like your promotion effective date was labelled as 1 Jun 12, which is what your unit backdated you to. Could be an issue with the paperwork not being completed properly, or the career manager setting the wrong effective date.

"But s/he got this, why can't I?" normally doesn't work in any OR I've seen...


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

I'm aware that the "But s/he got this, why can't I?" deal doesn't really hold up well...

I just came across this bit of info from *CBI Chapter 204 - PAY OF OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS*, that may be appropriate to my situation:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
204.015(4) (Exception) Qualifying service for pay increments does not include:

any service prior to a continuous interruption of more than five years during which no service designated in paragraph (2) was performed, unless the member during the period of the interruption has maintained relevant skills or qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff, or any officer designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, to be of military value;
any service that is not declared on enrolment;
any service prior to the date of a promotion to a higher substantive rank, other than a period of continuous service in an acting rank at the end of which the officer or non-commissioned member is promoted to the same substantive rank; or

(TB, effective 22 June 2006)
any period of forfeiture imposed under QR&O 208.30 (Forfeitures - Officers and Non-Commissioned Members) or QR&O 208.31 (Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations - When No Service Rendered), or leave without pay *other than a period granted under QR&O 16.26 (Maternity Leave) or QR&O 16.27 (Parental Leave)*.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
With this last paragraph and the part which states "other than", I believe this is the proper document for them to make the required change.

Anyone believe otherwise?


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## MJP (26 Jul 2012)

In addition to the CBI you pulled up, you need to read;

DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits;

(QR&Os) Volume I - Chapter 16: Leave; and

A-PP-005-LVE/AG-00, Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual.

Then decide if you have a case.  Other people's experiences is, as other have pointed out not valid.  What the Regs say is.  Dig in bud, do some reading and feel free to ask any clarifying questions you have.


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

Thank you for the links!   

Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?


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## aesop081 (26 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> Thank you for the links!
> 
> Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?



CBI 204.015 is about pay increments. You are asking about parental and a promotion.

See the problem here ?


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

So, is this to mean the CBI I have will be very little to no use for my situation? Sorry for my minimal knowledge on all of this, but there is next to nothing for publications regarding retroactive pay and parental leave... I'm trying to find what seems to be pertinent info.


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## aesop081 (26 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> So, is this to mean the CBI I have will be very little to no use for my situation?



204.015 has nothing to do with your situation.


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## Strike (26 Jul 2012)

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

This should help.

Basically, the CO has to sign off on your promotion.  If they don't they have to provide you with a reason.



> PROMOTION AUTHORITY
> 4. Subject to paragraph 5, the approving authority for:
> 
> promotion to Pte(B), Pte(T), acting lacking/corporal (AL/Cpl), acting/corporal (provisional) (A/Cpl(P)) and Corporal (Cpl) is the member's commanding officer (CO);





> ACTION BY COMMANDING OFFICER RESPECTING PROMOTION
> 11. For promotion to Cpl, AL/Cpl or A/Cpl(P) and for nominations to accelerated promotions and from acting to substantive rank, form CF 743A, UER (Unit Employment Record) Qualification Record Sheet, shall be completed and distributed as described in Annex G.
> 
> 12. A recommendation by a CO for promotion, or for qualification leading to promotion, shall be construed to mean that the member has, in all respects, demonstrated the necessary potential, and that the CO is prepared to retain and develop the member in the higher rank.
> ...



WRT LWOP:



> LEAVE WITHOUT PAY
> 24. LWOP granted on enrolment shall not count as qualifying time for promotion. *Effective 1 Jun 86, all other LWOP of 120 days duration or less shall count for promotion. LWOP of a duration of greater than 120 days may count as qualifying service in total or in part as specified by the approving authority of the leave. *  When a promotion instruction contains the name of a member who is on LWOP, the CO shall advise NDHQ/DPCAOR of the circumstances including commencement and termination dates. NDHQ/DPCAOR will advise the CO whether the promotion will stand, will be cancelled, or will be deferred.



Hope this helps a bit.


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

Thank you Strike!

Just to be clear though, I have already received the promotion... it's just the retro pay I'm trying to get situated.

If I understand correctly, where the leave days were more than 120 consecutive days, it's up to NDHQ/DPCAOR to decide if those days will count as qualifying service. 

My first child was also born since I have been in and there has been no repercussions from that... So, why this is such a big issue, I'm not sure. I've never had any disciplinary issues or medical restrictions... It's just a little boggling.


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## Strike (26 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> Thank you Strike!
> 
> Just to be clear though, I have already received the promotion... it's just the retro pay I'm trying to get situated.



Yes, but the time in all goes towards promotion dates, EPZ and all that noz.  What you need to do is ask why your promotion date was delayed to when it was.  If it wasn't the, quite simply, your pay should be back-dated.  Read through all of the CFAO in the link provided.  If it's DWAN only then let me know and I'll PM you the whole thing.


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## Greenmachine2517 (26 Jul 2012)

Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.


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## Strike (26 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.



Won't be able to do it until Tuesday now. I'm on leave 'till then.


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## Sub_Guy (27 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around...



Whaaaaat?  The run around from an orderly room?  

I knew I read a thread a while ago that sort of dealt with the same situation.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103719.0


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.



Do you have a Forces network/email account?


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## DAA (27 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, where the leave days were more than 120 consecutive days, it's up to NDHQ/DPCAOR to decide if those days will count as qualifying service.



Promotion to Cpl is based on Qualifying Service.  When you're on Maternity or Parental LWOP, the time counts towards the calculation of your EPZ date (ie; the date you are eligible for promotion to Cpl).  However, the effective date of promotion CANNOT be while you are on LWOP.  Therefore, if you reached 4 years of service while on LWOP, then the effective date of your promotion to the rank of Cpl would be the first day you return to work.


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## Strike (27 Jul 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> Promotion to Cpl is based on Qualifying Service.  When you're on Maternity or Parental LWOP, the time counts towards the calculation of your EPZ date (ie; the date you are eligible for promotion to Cpl).  However, the effective date of promotion CANNOT be while you are on LWOP.  Therefore, if you reached 4 years of service while on LWOP, then the effective date of your promotion to the rank of Cpl would be the first day you return to work.



I don't recall reading any of that.  Do you have a reference that you could share?


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## jeffb (29 Jul 2012)

It is also possible that your friend was advance promoted. She may not even be aware of that as the paperwork does not involve her. The only indication that a member would have that they have been advance promoted would be on parade. Different person, different situation.


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## wesleyd (30 Jul 2012)

Greenmachine2517 said:
			
		

> I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around... I went on parental leave in August 2011 and as of Sept 2011, I hit my 4yrs in and was eligible for my Cpls. I came back to work in May 2012 and received my promotion in June. I have received my pay statement for End July and was retro paid for June and July, however, I am being told that because I took parental leave, I am not due for the retro pay as of Sept.
> 
> Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, however... I have a female friend who joined the same day as me and we did BMQ together. She took parental leave for the same time frame as I did (Aug to May). She just got her retro pay dated as of Sept 2011, resulting in a VERY large pay difference.
> 
> ...



Get your promotion message, the effective date is when you will get paid from. Not when you were eligible. I am in a similar situation waiting for my WO,  Because of where I am posted I have been passed over and will not be promoted until late fall, even though I should have been made in April I will not get back pay for 7 months as my effective date will be in Nov sometime. Just because you are eligible does not mean you are guaranteed to get promoted the day of. Way back in the late 80's early 90's I remember guys that were eligible for promotion for three years but did not get promoted because there were no promotions. When they did get promoted they were back paid to the effective date, which was usually a month or so, not three years.


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## DAA (30 Jul 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> I don't recall reading any of that.  Do you have a reference that you could share?



PM me your DWAN email address and I will send it right over......


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## Strike (30 Jul 2012)

DAA said:
			
		

> PM me your DWAN email address and I will send it right over......



Just post the reference here.  I can check what it says when I get back to work tomorrow.


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## Shamrock (30 Jul 2012)




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## DAA (31 Jul 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Just post the reference here.  I can check what it says when I get back to work tomorrow.



Okay, here goes.....extract from an email sent from DMCPG

Ref: ADM (HR) Mil Instr 20/04  http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/mpi-ipm/20-04-eng.asp

Thanks, I was aware of the CBI ref and agree it's specifically about pay increments but it's probably the best I could offer as well.  At ref is a Primary Reserve statement on the issue - See Section 3.11(d).  Excused Duty and Training (ED&T) is the P Res equivalent to the Reg F LWOP since they have no LWOP.  Unfortunately there's no similar statement anywhere that I can find for the Reg F.  QR&O 3.09 (3)(d) indicates periods of LWOP do not count for seniority.  That article will be amended in support of a new series of DAODs that will replace the various CFAOs dealing with Career Policy to include wording to the effect that, seniority does not accrue while on periods of LWOP except when it is taken for purposes of maternity/parental leave.  

With that said, option c from your previous e-mail is correct:

c.	effective date of promotion changes to the first working day following parental leave.  (PARENTAL LEAVE COUNTS AS QUALIFYING SERVICE BUT THE MEMBER CANNOT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE DATE OF PROMOTION WHILE HE IS ON PARENTAL LEAVE).

From your previous e-mail, there's an explanation in the chain regarding deferral  "The basis for deferral of the promotion is that a mbr on MATA/PATA leave is not fulfilling a service requirement requiring the higher rank. " New policy (due out in 2012) will allow that the mbr's seniority could be backdated to 25 Mar but the effective date of promotion would still be 27 Mar, the day the mbr returned from parental leave.

I hope this clarifies.


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## Strike (1 Aug 2012)

So, I found this online:

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/Ch17/engraph/ch17_e.pdf

which is basically a 'how-to' on administrating people who are pregnant or on MATA/PATA.

Paras 9.7-9.9 deal will promotions and pay scales while on MATA/PATA.



> Promotion – MATA/PATA
> 9.7 Once a member has commenced LWOP for maternity or parental leave purposes, they are not rendering any service and _*should*_, therefore, not be entitled to promotion. However, promotions received while a member is on MATA/PATA may be deferred as long as they met all the prerequisites for promotion prior to commencing this leave and the promotion was previously approved, both for Reg and Res Forces. Of note, if a member is proceeding on PATA leave (vs MATA), his/her med cat doesn't change.
> 
> 9.8 Promotion ceremonies are not considered to meet the exigencies of imperative military requirements. COs are cautioned that to recall a member from leave so as to promote the member amongst his/her peers will negatively affect the calculation of EI or QPIP benefits and MATA and/or PATA.
> ...



I've highlighted the 'should' as anyone who has spent way too much time looking through regs and pubs knows that 'should' does not mean 'shall.'  Therefore, someone could conceivably be promoted while on MATA/PATA (and it has been done).  It would wreak havock when trying to recalculate benefits though, which is one of the reasons it's not recommended.


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## Strike (9 Oct 2012)

So, currently on sick leave from delivering via c-section until 24 Oct when Mata is suposed to start. Now, the little one is still in the hospital being 2 months premature.

I've read QR&O 16.26 and 16.27 (on an iPhone so forgive me if I don't post the ref) and it's my understanding that, because my baby was in hospital prior to both Mata or Parental starting, the end dates of those leave will be extended accordingly. For example, if she's in for 4 weeks total then maternity and parental leave will end later so that the effect is that I still get a full year of having her at home.

Am I correct in my thinking? I have to go in to work to sort out some of this admin and want to make sure I have my references down. The last time I went the clerks were under the impression that my year away from work started from her birth date even though she is in the hospital. I know that the public service doesn't start the year of Mata/Pata until baby is at home according to another parent who's little one is also in the NICU here.


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## Cansky (9 Oct 2012)

Although my premie daughter was born 10 years ago and things could have changed since then, my mata and pata started from the time she was born.  Same for the next 2 children.  Your sick leave which is standard for all pregnancy's only affects our pay not the time you'll spend away from work unless you sick leave was prior to delivery which is another separate issue. However I could be wrong as it has been a number of years since my girls were born.


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## Strike (9 Oct 2012)

Back home now and have the relevant references, with the paras in question highlighted.  (Some of the formatting may be off due to trying to cut and paste on an iPad.)

16.26 - MATERNITY LEAVE

(1) (Application) This article applies to an officer or non-commissioned member of the Regular Force or the Reserve Force on Class "B" or "C" Reserve Service.

(2) (Definition) In this article, "maternity leave" means a period of leave without pay and allowances granted to an officer or non-commissioned member for maternity purposes. (20 July 2006)

(3) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member who has been pregnant for at least 19 weeks is entitled, on request, to maternity leave for a period of up to the sum of the applicable periods of entitlement referred to in CBI subparagraph 205.461(4)(a) (Maternity and Parental Allowances) and paragraph 205.461(7). (20 July 2006)

(4) (Start and End of Period) Subject to paragraphs (5), (7) and (8), the period of maternity leave shall not start more than 8 weeks before the expected date of birth and shall end not later than 18 weeks after the date of the end of the pregnancy. (20 July 2006)

*(5) (Extension) The end date of the period of maternity leave shall be extended by any of the following periods: (20 July 2006)

any period during which one or more new-born children are hospitalized, if the officer or non-commissioned member has not yet started the period of the maternity leave; and (20 July 2006)*
any period during which the officer or non-commissioned member, having started but not ended the period of the maternity leave, returns to duty while one or more new-born children are hospitalized. (20 July 2006)
(6) (Military Requirements) When an officer or non-commissioned member has started but not ended maternity leave, a commanding officer may direct that the member return to duty because of imperative military requirements.

*(7) (Maternity Benefits Extended) If a period of maternity benefits received under the Employment Insurance Act, or a provincial law or scheme, is extended in accordance with the Employment Insurance Act or the provincial law or scheme because the officer or non-commissioned member returns to duty under paragraph (6), the end date of the period of maternity leave granted shall be extended by the period that the maternity benefits are extended under the applicable law or scheme. (20 July 2006)*

*(8) (Limitation) A period of maternity leave extended under paragraphs (5) or (7) shall not end later than 52 weeks after the date of the end of the pregnancy.*

(M) (20 July 2006)

16.27 - PARENTAL LEAVE

(1) (Application) This article applies to an officer or non-commissioned member of the Regular Force or the Reserve Force on Class  "B" or "C" Reserve Service.

(2) (Definition) In this article, "parental leave" means a period of leave without pay and allowances granted to an officer or non-commissioned member for parental or paternity purposes relating to one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted. (20 July 2006)
*
(3) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member is entitled to parental leave, on request, if the member: (20 July 2006)

has the care and custody of one or more new-born children of the member; (20 July 2006)*
starts legal proceedings under the laws of a province to adopt one or more children who are placed with the member for the purpose of adoption; or (20 July 2006)
obtains an order under the laws of a province for the adoption of one or more children. (20 July 2006)
(4) (Period of Leave) The period of parental leave is up to:
(20 July 2006)

a period of 37 weeks; or (20 July 2006) (20 July 2006)
if the officer or non-commissioned member is entitled to a period of leave under article 16.26 (Maternity Leave), a period of the sum of the applicable periods of entitlement referred to in CBI subparagraph 205.461(4)(b) (Maternity and Parental Allowances) and paragraph 205.461(7). (20 July 2006)
(5) (Start and End of Period) The period of parental leave shall be taken within 52 weeks of the day on which the child or children of the officer or non-commissioned member are born or the day on which the member first became entitled to parental leave under subparagraph (3)(b) or (c).
(20 July 2006)

*(6) (Extension) The end date of the period of parental leave shall be extended by any of the following periods: (20 July 2006)

any period during which one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted are hospitalized, if the officer or non-commissioned member has not yet started the period of the parental leave; (20 July 2006)*
any period during which the officer or non-commissioned member, having started but not ended the period of the parental leave, returns to duty while one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted are hospitalized; and (20 July 2006)
any period during which the officer or non-commissioned member, having started but not ended the period of the parental leave, is directed to return to duty by the commanding officer because of imperative military requirements. (20 July 2006)
*(7) (Limitation) A period of parental leave

extended under subparagraph 6(a) or 6(b) shall end no later than 52 weeks after the day on which the officer or non-commissioned member first becomes entitled to parental leave under paragraph (3); *or
extended under subparagraph 6(c) or deferred under paragraph (8) shall end no later than 104 weeks after the day on which the officer or non-commissioned member first becomes entitled to parental leave under paragraph (3).
(8) (Military Requirements) A commanding officer may defer the start date of the period of parental leave if there are military imperative requirements.

(9) (Combined Periods - Parental Reasons) Subject to paragraph (10), if both parents are members of the Canadian Forces, the sum of the periods of parental leave to which the parents are entitled under this article, or the sum of the periods of parental leave under this article and any exemption from duty and training under article 9.10 (Exemption from Duty and Training - Parental Purposes) to which the parents are entitled, shall not exceed 37 weeks. (20 July 2006)

(10) (Combined Periods - Parental and Maternity Reasons) If both parents are members of the Canadian Forces and one parent is entitled to an exemption from duty and training under article 9.09 (Exemption From Duty and Training - Maternity Purposes) or is entitled to maternity leave under article 16.26, the sum of the period of exemption from duty and training under article 9.09 or maternity leave under article 16.26 to which a parent is entitled, and the periods of parental leave under this article and any exemption from duty and training under article 9.10 to which the parents are entitled, shall not exceed 52 weeks. (20 July 2006)

(11) (Transitional) The end date of the period of parental leave for an officer or non-commissioned member to whom section 4 of the Fairness for Military Families (Employment Insurance) Act applies is extended in the same manner as the period referred to in subsection 23(2) of the Employment Insurance Act as determined by the application of that section.


----------



## datrembl118 (23 Jan 2013)

Is anybody know if after taking a year of parental leave, those a member still required a annual PER of just a PDR?


----------



## Cansky (23 Jan 2013)

An annual PER.  If you worked less than 3 months of the year it will be an exemption PER reflecting parental leave and if you worked more than 3 months then its an annual PER.  This is all explained in the CPAS.


----------



## Infanteer (23 Jan 2013)

IIRC, CFPAS doesn't say three months, it says an observable period.  If you come back after MATA/PATA and do 2 months of decent work, you should get a PER.


----------



## armyvern (24 Jan 2013)

Depends upon whether or not they worked for an observable time period during the annual PER reporting period; if no, then they'd receive a PER Exemption (that form can be found within CFPAS) - all specific dates covering the entire reporting period are required to be entered etc with an explanation of why mbr was not observable for that time.

Last year, I belonged to my Unit for 4 months, but spent all but 1 week on embarkation or disembarkation leave.  No PER.  I did get an exemption PER that covered 01 Apr-06 Apr (exempt due to predeployment leave), 07 Apr- 17 Dec (exempt due to being deployed), 18-21 Dec (worked 3 X 1/2 days), 22 Dec - 21 Mar (exempt due to post-deployment leave), 22 -31 Mar - worked.


----------



## armyvern (24 Jan 2013)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> IIRC, CFPAS doesn't say three months, it says an observable period.  If you come back after MATA/PATA and do 2 months of decent work, you should get a PER.



You're right.  We've had troops who worked 5 weeks during the year due to deployments, but they got a PER from us because they were at work and observable.


----------



## DAA (24 Jan 2013)

datrembl118 said:
			
		

> Is anybody know if after taking a year of parental leave, those a member still required a annual PER of just a PDR?



Tons of factors to consider when deciding to either write a PER or a PERX, such as:

a.  are you an NCM or an Offr?
b.  how long have you been in your unit and or job?
c.  how long of an observation period does the supervisor have to work with?
d.  if the observation period is limited, would a full PER disadvantage the member? (ie; low score due to lack of substantiation)
e.  would a PERX disadvantage the member? (ie; can you substantiate a higher than normal scoring)

Every situation is different, with one exception!  You should receive something that will ultimately be forwarded to your CM.


----------



## chriscalow (30 Jan 2013)

I see on my pay stub I pay approx 300 to CF superannuation, in addition to CPP and EI payments. Are all three deductions ceased on mata/pata, requiring re-payment, or is it just the CPP/EI?

Thanks.


----------



## CountDC (5 Feb 2013)

Interesting - when I did my pata the canex payment continued to come out.  The mata/pata clk took it into account when she did my pay.

EI can be filed online and then you just drop off the form and your nearest office.  I did my last one that way and didn't have to go through the long waiting period. i was shocked that the money was in my account right on time.


----------



## Strike (7 Feb 2013)

Since this seems to be the thread for Mata/Pata pay hopefully someone will be able to help me out.

Just got my end Feb pay stub and noticed a significant drop in my Mata/Pata allowance.  Granted, I should be switching to Parental from Maternity this month, but it was my understanding that my pay should remain the same.  Is there some weird voodoo going on that I should be aware of?  Nobody's in the office right now so I can't call in.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Feb 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> Since this seems to be the thread for Mata/Pata pay hopefully someone will be able to help me out.
> 
> Just got my end Feb pay stub and noticed a significant drop in my Mata/Pata allowance.  Granted, I should be switching to Parental from Maternity this month, but it was my understanding that my pay should remain the same.  Is there some weird voodoo going on that I should be aware of?  Nobody's in the office right now so I can't call in.



Were I a betting man I'd assume that the MATA has expired, and the PATA hasn't been activated in the pay system yet.  I believe it's two different transactions, one to activate each.


----------



## Strike (7 Feb 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Were I a betting man I'd assume that the MATA has expired, and the PATA hasn't been activated in the pay system yet.  I believe it's two different transactions, one to activate each.



Thanks DP.  Turns out that's what it is and, because the date for the changover is wonky, this month may be a tad lean.  Next month will make up for it though.


----------



## 63 Delta (15 Apr 2013)

My wife came off Mata in Feb. She was at minimum overpaid $700. We are told that the Help desk in Ottawa is the only who can deal with this. Its over two and a half months, and they still havent taken her pay back. 

Anyone know how long the help desk usually takes? And why is Ottawa the only one able to help with a MATA over-payment? Seems like an extra layer of unneeded bureaucracy... Maybe thats why there are so many pers at NDHQ...


----------



## DAA (15 Apr 2013)

Mata-Pata is managed by your local supporting URS.  If an overpayment (ie; debit balance) is showing on your Pay Guide/Statement, it is your URS that will resolve the issue.


----------



## FGuard (24 May 2013)

New Here, Not much for writing on forums but I am seeking some advice and maybe some input, I have been pushed to the limits on this and feel that i am victim to some ones mistake. (Redress pending) Little brief about me 18yrs in 13 of which is Class B and C, my contract was cut this fiscal year but found gainful employment after fiscal year.  I have not Parent Unit as I am in the PRL

So  I informed my CoC that I was going on Pata Leave in Jan 2013, I filed the required paperwork that is needed for Pata, everything was completed on my end (leave pass and Mata/Pata request form). Here's were it gets interesting 3 days after I applied for my Pata, I get put on a TCAT. No big deal 3 months before I go on Pata (WRONG). Apparently 2088 go directly the Adjt in this Command and not thru the OR.  So I burn up my Leave thru Christmas my Pata is starts the day most everyone is back to work in Jan. I call the OR the next day asking for my ROE so I can apply for my benefits. I get this for a answer "oh I don't see it here"  it's was sitting on the Adjt's desk and has not been signed or anything. Then the clerk tell's me I have to find a Unit to parade with.. to continue my pata (So you couldn't  tell me this when I was on Leave to seek this out but I'm on Pata with my daughter so I have all the free time in the world?) So at this point, I can not get into any Reserve unit cause I'm on a TCAT  (didn't know this never been injured before). So I was instructed that I go the JPSU, what they suggested to me was not a option I was willing to take. This meeting did not sit well with the G1 and it was blown out of proportion by the Pata clerk. And after my meeting at the JPSU the OR just figured I was on TCAT. So all this stuff going on and i'm dragging my 6 month old daughter around with me in the dead of winter. TCAT gets removed end of Feb. I received word that I have been accepted for a job and that the paper work will follow soon. I still haven't received my leave pass for my Pata. I was asking ever 2ND day for it, so I clear the mess and stop my mess dues. 31 March I receive my leave pass and pata paperwork with the last 4 months cancelled. So like any old reservist I call DCBA and start asking questions, in regards to Pata leave. Long story shorten (Basically via email I was told a mbr on Mata/Pata's contract ends the day there Leave starts regardless if there contract ends in the middle of there leave.). The Reason I was told and I still can not find any policy anywhere, my Pata was cancelled due to Hardship on the soldier. I finally received my Pata file after the fact just the other day and right there the Adjt minutes says mbr is entitled. Also received confirmation email were clerk admits that there was a misunderstanding.  


Feed back would be nice or suggestions?? 
Also I had to cut my regular IE parental short so I can start my new Class B as the feet draggers were not giving me any info,, 

- mod edit to thread title to correct spelling, grammar -


----------



## OldSolduer (24 May 2013)

I am not an administrative genius, but many of the folks on here are.


----------



## Occam (24 May 2013)

I'm not an administrative genius either, but I would make one recommendation:  take some time and see if you can clean up your post a little bit.  I have to admit it was difficult for me to follow the chronology of it all and it was difficult to read.  There are some people here who may be able to give you advice but try to make it easy on them by explaining your situation as clearly as you possibly can.  Hope it all works out for you.


----------



## 63 Delta (24 May 2013)

Ya, its definitely hard to read. Try posting it almost like the points of a memo, and remember the ABC's. Accurate, Brief and Clear.


----------



## ARMY_101 (24 May 2013)

FGuard said:
			
		

> I have not Parent Unit as I am in the PRL



 ??? Your parent unit is the PRL then... they're the ones who would handle your admin and paperwork and application for PATA.

2. You mentioned that you _applied for_ and had your PATA dates _approved._ That's good. But then you're getting into something about leave passes not being approved? Your application for PATA and leave pass should have gone up and been approved together; they're basically the same thing: one applies you for leave from work and the other for benefits.

Assuming the leave was approved, that means you had a Class B contract which extended beyond the last day of your PATA, since when you're on PATA you're still held against your Class B position (but paid from a national fin code). So I don't understand how you were "accepted for a new job" a) while being on PATA and b) when you were still occupying your previous position...



> 31 March I receive my leave pass and pata paperwork with the last 4 months cancelled.



So what were you doing for the past four months (according to the chain)  ???


----------



## FGuard (25 May 2013)

Thanks I will clean it up and make it easier to read, I didn't think to do that. Now that I look at it. Sorry not the type to write these things... I normally suck it up and deal with it. But I must say for the last 5 yrs I spent helping soldiers and there families deal with stuff like this, stuff even worse. 

Army101 you are correct my leave and application were approved at the same time, but they were never returned to me, I got them on the 5th of Apr annotated to 31 March 13.  My Contract was terminated on 31 Mar. I was informed by the Res Management clerk that I could continue my Pata as a Class A. And that as long as I have a position number I could continue with my benefits. 

I will fix my post to make it more readable


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 May 2013)

When you say "redress pending", do you mean you've submitted one and it is processing or you are considering/planning to submit one?


----------



## ARMY_101 (25 May 2013)

FGuard said:
			
		

> Army101 you are correct my leave and application were approved at the same time, but they were never returned to me, I got them on the 5th of Apr annotated to 31 March 13.



So you went on leave without having your leave pass in your possession ???



> My Contract was terminated on 31 Mar. I was informed by the Res Management clerk that I could continue my Pata as a Class A. And that as long as I have a position number I could continue with my benefits.



Doesn't sound right. Only Class B reservists are entitled to benefits like PATA/MATA leave; Class A just wouldn't work for the duration of their paternity leave (they'd request ED&T).


----------



## SeaKingTacco (25 May 2013)

Actually- no.  My wife ( a class A reservist) just finished MATA.  She was on MATA, with no benefits and no cost to either the CF or EI.  This is separate and different from ED&T.


----------



## ARMY_101 (25 May 2013)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Actually- no.  My wife ( a class A reservist) just finished MATA.  She was on MATA, with no benefits and no cost to either the CF or EI.  This is separate and different from ED&T.



When I speak of "MATA/PATA leave," I mean the leave in which the member is compensated in accordance with CBI 205.461 - MATERNITY AND PARENTAL ALLOWANCES (PATA).

OP: see, for example: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/all-ind/faq/matpata-imatipar-eng.asp, and read up on the CBI noted above.



> 205.461(3) (Eligibility) A member is eligible to be paid MATA or PATA for the period set out in paragraph (4) if the member:
> 
> in the case of MATA, is granted maternity leave or, in the case of PATA, is granted parental leave;
> 
> ...



The formula referenced at the CBI usually means you have to be on Class B to "repay" your MATA/PATA leave to the CAF.  So without a Class B position, I don't see how you could be on PATA leave. (As well, as I'm sure you're aware, you must always hold a valid Class B position in order to serve on the PRL or you will be released from the CAF.)


----------



## beach_bum (27 May 2013)

That's not true.  Class A soldiers as well as Class B who have finished their contracts are entitled as long as they have enough hours in the last year to qualify.  (I believe it's 600) I have seen Class A soldiers receive the benefits.  They do not have to go back to Class B after either.  They need to repay the days.  That can be done in Class A days.  It will just take a long time.


----------



## FGuard (28 May 2013)

Sorry Hard drive got fried over the weekend.

I will try and make this easier to understand.


1. Informed CoC that I will be taking Parental Leave in Jan 07 2013  ( Aug 2012)

2. Spoke with Pata Clerk about process to apply (Sept 2012)

3. Applied for Pata Leave on 24 Oct 2012 filled out dates from 7 Jan 2013 to 29 Jul 13,  

4. Was told that my Pata dates exceeded my contract, but that I could continue cause I haven't had a break in service for 13 yrs and that I could pay back my time on Class A or if I got another Class B

5. Paperwork submitted from Pata Clerk to CO thru Adjt. 31 Oct 12 (Application form. CF100, Birth Certificate)

6. 08 Jan 2013 Asked for CF100 and ROE, Pata Clerk had know idea were it was at.. Still on Adjt's desk, 

7. 14 Jan 2013 received ROE from Pata clerk still No CF100, asked for it many times

8. At this time I was trying to get into a Reserve Unit to get position Number, since I have never been on a TCAT before I didn't think it mattered. So I could not transfer to a Unit till this was cleared.
Long story short JPSU recommend DComp I said no, cause I would have to come off Pata and I could use that time to recover.
( bigger crap sandwich started over this cause someone fail to read email entirely)

9. 18 Feb 2013 Did not receive payment from Military (strange though I was being paid from Ottawa??)

10. March 15 finally off TCAT, Applied for new Class B cause I knew mine was not going to be extended, At this time was waiting for RSM to grant me a position number at Reserve Unit. 

11. 26 March verbally confirmed Class B Contract. 3yr Contract 

12. 05 Apr Finally after 3 month of nagging receive CF 100 photocopy  and 2268 photocopy with dates changed to reflect the end of contract. (Just a assumation I figure they held on to my leave pass so they could change the dates after the fact).

13. 08 Apr Received letter of intent from the COS, informed CoC that I have secured a Class B just needed to know what was going on with my Pata.

14. 1 week later I could not wait for a answer and inform my future employer that I would start 15 July cut my time with my family short so that could start working. 

15. I was told that my Pata leave was cancelled by the DCO and the Adjt cause of "Hardship" they felt that I could not afford to pay back the top up I would have received.  Although the Adjt's Minutes on original application states that I'm entitled, then the COS asks to speak to him on this then changes his mind to "In discussion with DCO will not entertain this pass 31 Mar"
( Note to this COS was the only one to date his minute, this was the same week my 2088 was signed buy DCO,) 



Thanks for your input so far, In regards to a post my redress has not been submitted just yet, I want to be 100% I have my Admin friend looking over it,


----------



## ARMY_101 (28 May 2013)

Strange. Sounds like a special situation that will best be dealt with through your home unit.


----------



## FGuard (28 May 2013)

Well considering this is "My Home Unit" or so i'm told now there is no such thing as the LFWA PRL, I'm pretty sure if I was still with my home unit back in Ottawa I wouldn't have this problem. I know it's very strange I have spoken with many SNR NCO's about this and have never heard of a situation like this..


----------



## ARMY_101 (28 May 2013)

FGuard said:
			
		

> Well considering this is "My Home Unit" or so i'm told now there is no such thing as the LFWA PRL, I'm pretty sure if I was still with my home unit back in Ottawa I wouldn't have this problem. I know it's very strange I have spoken with many SNR NCO's about this and have never heard of a situation like this..



That's what I mean. Your chain clearly had reasons for ordering what they did and we're not getting the full story here on an internet forum. So they're the best ones to ask to clarify their position.

And yes, the LFWA PRL still exists.


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (29 Sep 2013)

Heads up from a RMS Clerk friend of mine

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2391071749/permalink/10151594165641750/

basically you loose 1 day for every month with 31 days.  = 1 week of pay for every 12 months of MATA/PATA.   

But read it for yourself.  I'm no longer in so I don't know if the CANFORGEN is out yet.  

Gotta love budget cut season.

Best of luck to those affected.


**edited because I hit the enter button early****


----------



## Sparkplugs (29 Sep 2013)

Well, that's close. You don't lose a week of pay for every 12 months on mata/pata, you lose the military top-up of a week's worth of pay, not the whole thing, seeing as EI kicked in some. In my case, I'll owe about 60% of a week's pay for my year on maternity/parental. Still crap, I think that's one they should have to eat, or if they're not going to eat it, they should be taking back the money from everyone who's ever gotten it, not just a certain amount of years. But boy does this suck for those people I know who've managed to pop out four (or more!) kids in the last little while.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (29 Sep 2013)

One has to wonder what sort of byzantine accounting system they are using when the situation below:



> FROM 1 JAN 01 MATA/PATA BENEFITS HAVE BEEN CALCULATED BASED ON THE
> NUMBER OF DAYS IN A CALENDAR MONTH. THIS WAS INACCURATE AND CCPS HAS
> BEEN REPROGRAMMED RETROACTIVELY TO COMPLY WITH REF A. MATA/PATA
> BENEFITS WERE OVERPAID BY 1 DAY FOR EACH CALENDAR MONTH WITH 31 DAYS
> ...



can be allowed to occur. Furthermore, how inept an auditing job was conducted for those affected years that this wasn't noticed. Unless somewhere there is an RMS clerk, sunning him/herself on the deck of his/her 42' yacht in Bermuda, all bought with the proceeds of  an 'Office Space' type embezzlement scheme.  ;D


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Sep 2013)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> or if they're not going to eat it, they should be taking back the money from everyone who's ever gotten it, not just a certain amount of years.



Then they'd have to do the same for pay raises, allowances and other benefits. 




			
				Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> But boy does this suck for those people I know who've managed to pop out four (or more!) kids in the last little while.



At least they got paid parental leave, unlike others.


----------



## Sub_Guy (30 Sep 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> At least they got paid parental leave, unlike others.



True, but giving us next to no notice to sort out this issue is just plain unsat.   I just spoke with the clerk here, and the Oct 15th pay is processed tomorrow, so our clerks have to sort everything out today, I realize it is not the clerks fault, but someone has to be held accountable for mistakes like these.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Sep 2013)

When I was a Private in Greenwood (many, many moons ago), I had a pay that half was taken off because apparently I hadn't been paying quarters for three months.  No notice so no choice to have it done in deductions.

I agree, that notice should have been given, but the message gives references for how to have the overpayment removed in monthly deductions vice one lump sum.


----------



## PuckChaser (30 Sep 2013)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Still crap, I think that's one they should have to eat, or if they're not going to eat it, they should be taking back the money from everyone who's ever gotten it, not just a certain amount of years.



They consulted the DJAG, as indicated in the post and they legally cannot take the money back after 5 years has lapsed. Moral of the story? If the CF screws up and overpays you, hide for 5 years and you get to keep it.


----------



## Pusser (30 Sep 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> When I was a Private in Greenwood (many, many moons ago), I had a pay that half was taken off because apparently I hadn't been paying quarters for three months.  No notice so no choice to have it done in deductions.
> 
> I agree, that notice should have been given, but the message gives references for how to have the overpayment removed in monthly deductions vice one lump sum.



That should never have happened.  I have always made it clear to any Fin/RMS Clks working for me that they were never to simply recover any significant amount of money from anyone without speaking to them first.  Yes, there are regulations that require recovery action in the case of overpayments, but there are no regulations that require being a d--k about it.  At the very least, everyone should be offered recovery at the same rate that it was overpaid and the regulations specifically allow this.


----------



## Remius (30 Sep 2013)

I'm curious to see how if at all they will recover this overpayment to members that have released since then.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (30 Sep 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm curious to see how if at all they will recover this overpayment to members that have released since then.



Hmm. Me too. That being said I would only be owing about a days pay or so, but still, would like to see them try to get it off me. See you in small claims court methinks, where a judge might not take so kindly a view to their mistake, a mistake I had no way of noticing and pointing out to them, and one which they are trying to rectify 5 years after the fact (in my case).


----------



## newwifey (30 Sep 2013)

Apparently it's now been cancelled (for now).  Perhaps someone can confirm with the actual link.  This message was also posted on facebook.

"1. The subject message titled mata/pata calculation changes is cancelled.
2.The central computation pay system (ccps) changes implemented 20 sep 13 cannot be reversed. Consequently, 15 Oct 13 pay statements will reflect these changes. However pay offices are not repeat not to take any action to recover or pay out any monies concerning this mata/pata issue until further notice."


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (30 Sep 2013)

What CANFORGEN is this from?


----------



## kratz (30 Sep 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> What CANCORGEN is this from?



When did the Correctional Service of Canada start processing our pay?  ;D


----------



## Towards_the_gap (30 Sep 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> When did the Correctional Service of Canada start processing our pay?  ;D



Well it would certainly make a lot of sense actually  ;D


----------



## Pusser (1 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Hmm. Me too. That being said I would only be owing about a days pay or so, but still, would like to see them try to get it off me. See you in small claims court methinks, where a judge might not take so kindly a view to their mistake, a mistake I had no way of noticing and pointing out to them, and one which they are trying to rectify 5 years after the fact (in my case).



Notwithstanding the clusterf**k this looks like it may turn into, the truth is that the Government can and does recover monies owed by former CF members.  The Financial Administration Act requires it.  Simply writing off a debt of this nature is well nigh impossible (there are exceptions of course, but the easiest way is to die without an estate).

Recovering overpayments from annuitants is simple.  If after the Government sends you a number of polite letters informing you of the debt, you have not repaid the amount, they simply take it off your pension cheque.

Recovering from non-annuitants is a little more difficult, but not impossible.  After asking you nicely, your case will be sent to a collection agency.  If that doesn't work, after one year, they take it off your income tax.

The lesson here is that unless you disappear from society completely, the Government will get its money (provided they find the error within six years - in that case, you get to keep it).


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Oct 2013)

I'm still waitng for the number that this CANFORGEN is as I can't find it thus far.


----------



## The_Dictat (1 Oct 2013)

P 301858Z SEP 13
FM NDHQ DMPAP OTTAWA
TO AIG 1760
BT
UNCLAS 005/13
SIC WAS
SUBJ: NDHQ DMPAP OTTAWA 004/13 251819Z SEP 13 CANCELLATION
1. THE SUBJECT MESSAGE TITLED MATA/PATA CALCULATION CHANGES IS 
CANCELLED
2. THE CENTRAL COMPUTATION PAY SYSTEM (CCPS) CHANGES IMPLEMENTED 20 
SEP 13 CANNOT BE REVERSED. CONSEQUENTLY, 15 OCT 13 PAY STATEMENTS 
WILL REFLECT THESE CHANGES. HOWEVER PAY OFFICES ARE NOT REPEAT NOT TO 
TAKE ANY ACTION TO RECOVER OR PAY OUT ANY AMOUNTS CONCERNING THIS 
MATA/PATA ISSUE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Oct 2013)

Can't find it on the website


----------



## dapaterson (1 Oct 2013)

It wasn't a CANFORGEN, rather an AIG 1760 - as I recall, that's the Pay & Finance distribution list.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Oct 2013)

That would explain it then.


----------



## Towards_the_gap (1 Oct 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Notwithstanding the clusterf**k this looks like it may turn into, the truth is that the Government can and does recover monies owed by former CF members.  The Financial Administration Act requires it.  Simply writing off a debt of this nature is well nigh impossible (there are exceptions of course, but the easiest way is to die without an estate).
> 
> Recovering overpayments from annuitants is simple.  If after the Government sends you a number of polite letters informing you of the debt, you have not repaid the amount, they simply take it off your pension cheque.
> 
> ...



Hmm, thanks for the info, I honestly didn't think about that but makes perfect sense. A days pay at the MCpl 2 rate isn't worth that much hassle!!


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (1 Oct 2013)

From some big wig in Ottawa:

Good afternoon, I wanted to let you know that I just got out of a meeting regarding the mata/pata changes. I was asked to let you know that the AIG message that was sent out on this is being rescinded and an updated AIG message and CANFORGEN will be issued shortly with more detailed information for units. 

MWO ....


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (1 Oct 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> From some big wig in Ottawa:
> 
> Good afternoon, I wanted to let you know that I just got out of a meeting regarding the mata/pata changes. I was asked to let you know that the AIG message that was sent out on this is being rescinded and an updated AIG message and CANFORGEN will be issued shortly with more detailed information for units.
> 
> MWO ....



In other words, bad PR move, and how fast can we regurgitate our collective feet from our mouths?  Typical gov't.  Sounds like a bureaucrat tried to find a way to save some $$ on the backs of the employees without checking with the upper echelon or the political masters first.  Typical.

Oh well I'm just glad I didn't take any leave, not that I'd willingly give the $$ back anyway (I'm a non-annuitant).  I'd make them spend the $$ on the collection agency, and then spend more $$ to take it off my tax return.  They took enough $$ off my pay without asking while I was serving.  They can kiss my ..........


----------



## DAA (1 Oct 2013)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> In other words, bad PR move, and how fast can we regurgitate our collective feet from our mouths?  Typical gov't.  Sounds like a bureaucrat tried to find a way to save some $$ on the backs of the employees without checking with the upper echelon or the political masters first.  Typical.
> 
> Oh well I'm just glad I didn't take any leave, not that I'd willingly give the $$ back anyway (I'm a non-annuitant).  I'd make them spend the $$ on the collection agency, and then spend more $$ to take it off my tax return.  They took enough $$ off my pay without asking while I was serving.  They can kiss my ..........



Has nothing to do with GoC.  This is all about CF members, dispensing information without realizing the implications.  I saw that message also, it was basically an "advisory" informing Orderly Rooms of changes that were going to be implemented within the Pay System (CCPS) that may or may not have resulted in a debit to MATA/PATA allowances on the affected members pay accounts.  What they failed to understand, was they should have waited for "clarification" on how to proceed should this occur.

Also more commonly known as "crying wolf"........

Further compounded by the postings that the message was "rescinded" but what no one has actually told you, was that the message was rescinded, the changes will still take effect but if it results in a "debit", that "recovery action" is NOT to be initiated until further notice.

So if you are currently in receipt of MATA/PATA benefits, you have nothing to worry about.


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## meni0n (4 Oct 2013)

I had about 463$ taken out of end of Oct pay. I am not sure how they calculated that as I was getting about 1200$ a month of top up for 5 months from end of March to mid-Sept 09. These calculations seems to be wrong because according to the pay statement they took out about 346$ in May and August. There also seem to be small credits for other months as well which brought the total to 463$. That's not 1 day of overpayment for 3 months of 31 days... I also had no communication from my OR at all regarding this matter...


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## DAA (4 Oct 2013)

meni0n said:
			
		

> I had about 463$ taken out of end of Oct pay. I am not sure how they calculated that as I was getting about 1200$ a month of top up for 5 months from end of March to mid-Sept 09. These calculations seems to be wrong because according to the pay statement they took out about 346$ in May and August. There also seem to be small credits for other months as well which brought the total to 463$. That's not 1 day of overpayment for 3 months of 31 days... I also had no communication from my OR at all regarding this matter...



General rule of thumb.......when a CF members incurs a debit on their pay guide which exceeds a pre-determined threshold, the member is normally contacted before hand to explain the situation and if necessary, the debit is not acted on if an extended recovery period is warranted.

You will need to go and see your supporting OR/Pay Clerk to find out just what happened.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (4 Oct 2013)

Myself and another member are out $400+ and $1000+ with no communication


----------



## DAA (4 Oct 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Myself and another member are out $400+ and $1000+ with no communication



I saw the "cancellation" message and I am pretty certain that it said "no recovery action to be initiated until further clarification" or something like that.

You need to go and see your supporting OR/Pay Clerk and get an explanation.  The MATA/PATA Coords at local areas, should have been proactive and prevented this from occurring.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (4 Oct 2013)

My OR isn't the most stellar but I suppose it's worth a try.


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## captloadie (4 Oct 2013)

From my OR, here is what happened. The recoveries were automatically generated in CCPS, that's why we can see them now on the pay statements. They were set to be actioned for the end Oct pay, so you should see an uneven split between mid and end month. Further direction is coming, and if need be, pay staff will have to go in an manually adjust peoples pay keep the recovery from happening.

That being said, DMPAP has not yet generated a list of affected personnel, and most pay sections don't have the staff to go through each and every members individual pay accounts.


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> I saw the "cancellation" message and I am pretty certain that it said "no recovery action to be initiated until further clarification" or something like that.



Yes, there was a cancellation message, however, see para 2:



			
				newwifey said:
			
		

> 1. The subject message titled mata/pata calculation changes is cancelled.
> 2. The central computation pay system (ccps) changes implemented 20 sep 13 cannot be reversed. Consequently, 15 Oct 13 pay statements will reflect these changes. However pay offices are not repeat not to take any action to recover or pay out any monies concerning this mata/pata issue until further notice.





			
				DAA said:
			
		

> You need to go and see your supporting OR/Pay Clerk and get an explanation.



Yep.   :nod:


----------



## DAA (4 Oct 2013)

:goodpost:


I thought so.  The problem being.....it will most likely be incumbent upon the member affected, to actually bring this up with their supporting Pay Office.  I did receive an email today from higher, asking us to "identify" any members of our unit who were in receipt of MATA/PATA benefits during the period in question.  So it looks like this is going to be a manual/labour intensive process and naturally, not everyone will get their hand counted.


----------



## Cansky (5 Oct 2013)

it really is a cluster *&&*^ to be blunt.  My last mata/pata was in 04 and according to the message was suppose to be debit followed by credit.  No such thing occurred, according to my pay guide I am out almost 800 bucks for 7 months mata/pata.  Worse I have asked the question to the clerks (currently deployed in Kabul) and no one seems to have a clue as to what to say or do about it.  I find it very disappointing that the only reason I am aware of this issue is from Facebook and this site for both the original message and cancellation. If it wasn't for these 2 sites the first time I would have know is from my pay guide.  Very sad communications on someone's part.  800 bucks is a lot of money regardless of rank and from the message I find it hard to believe I was over paid that much in a 5 month period. What's going to happen to those who released since then?  My hubby took 3 months are they coming after him too. Someone needs to be held accountable for the lack of communication in this situation.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Oct 2013)

Does anyone have any additional info on this?

My mid October pay got docked $180, but I found out about this on Facebook, kind of getting tired of this arbitrary pay recoveries.  This is the third time that I've only found out about pay recoveries when my pay stub comes in.

One of the other guys I work with got nailed for about $500, and there is no real rhyme or reason for the calculations (ie deductions on some 30 day months etc).

With all the other sound bites coming out of the govt about 'this isn't how the private sector does it' this might be another thing they look at changing.  I think generally if you get overpaid in the private sector due to a clerical error on their part like this, they can change their calculation going forward but eat any overpayments to employees.

Incidentally, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure if the ref B. (Consolidated liability and Proceedings act) applies in this case.  You can read it here http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-50/index.html, but will start a separate thread as I'm now curious.


Here's the a link to the story from the Ottawa citizen blog

LINK REMOVED AS PER SITE POLICY

(sorry, missed the 2nd page of discussion before posting, removed the story as it was redundant)


----------



## DAA (9 Oct 2013)

newwifey said:
			
		

> Apparently it's now been cancelled (for now).  Perhaps someone can confirm with the actual link.  This message was also posted on facebook.
> 
> "1. The subject message titled mata/pata calculation changes is cancelled.
> 2.The central computation pay system (ccps) changes implemented 20 sep 13 cannot be reversed. Consequently, 15 Oct 13 pay statements will reflect these changes. *However pay offices are not repeat not to take any action to recover or pay out any monies concerning this mata/pata issue until further notice.*"



Pretty self-explanatory.  The transaction cannot be reversed at this time.  Even though, the message clearly states that pay offices are NOT to recover or pay out any monies associated with this, it is in your best interests to contact your local Pay Office ASAP and bring this to their attention, just to be on the safe side.  CCPS Pay Roll Generation is "automatic" and the only way to prevent recovery, is most likely through "manual" intervention on affected pay guides/accounts.

Be "proactive" and tell them!!!  Do NOT wait for them to come to you!


----------



## EME101 (9 Oct 2013)

I don't have much faith in their calculations anyway.  I took 3 weeks of PATA, and it appears I am having 1 days pay recovered.  How do they figure that I was paid for 31 days when I only took 21 days?


----------



## dapaterson (9 Oct 2013)

Because one of your days of PATA was the 31st of the month.


----------



## EME101 (9 Oct 2013)

I haven't the justification for why the change, but I'm assuming they were using the standard military way of calculating the daily rate as (month pay/30).  So for a month with 31 days(daily rate X 31), that was an extra day of pay, when instead is should have been (monthly pay/31) for the daily rate.  So for example at $5000/month, the 21 days paid at the 30 day calulation, would be $3500.  Where the correct rate would be $3387.10.  Where if they just subtract a day to fix it, they arrive at $3333.33.  If this is actually the case, then everyone who started MATA/PATA on someday other than the 1st of a month, and ended on someday other than the 31st of a month, would be short money.

But that's just speculation.  As stated above, I'm just assuming that the error was in the daily rate.


----------



## Navy_Pete (9 Oct 2013)

Isn't it a little silly to direct pay offices to not take any action to recover the money when it was all done automatically at a higher level?

They may as well tell me not to authorize or release CFTOs until further notice.

Once I'm back in at work tomorrow I will be wandering over to discuss, but the whole thing is pretty ridiculous and probably never should have happened in this fashion to begin with.  Yet another case where the ORs are going to get a number of upset people coming in for something completely outside of their control.


----------



## DAA (10 Oct 2013)

Update......see recently released CANFORGEN 169/13.

1.	SINCE 1 JANUARY 2001, MATA/PATA BENEFITS FOR THE REGULAR FORCE HAVE BEEN CALCULATED BASED ON THE NUMBER OF DAYS IN A CALENDAR MONTH, AS OPPOSED TO A 30 DAY AVERAGE AS REQUIRED BY QR AND O. AS SUCH, MATA/PATA BENEFITS WERE OVERPAID BY ONE DAY FOR EACH CALENDAR MONTH WITH 31 DAYS, AND BENEFITS IN THE MONTH OF FEB WERE UNDERPAID BY ONE OR TWO DAYS, DEPENDING ON WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A LEAP YEAR. THIS SITUATION IS CURRENTLY BEING ASSESSED 
2.	*ACCORDINGLY, PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT FOR NOW NO REPEAT NO RECOVERIES OR PAYOUTS OF AMOUNTS CONCERNING THESE ADJUSTMENTS WILL BE ACTIONED  * 
3.	CAF MEMBERS WILL CONTINUE TO BE PAID AS PER NORMAL UNTIL SUCH TIME AS FURTHER ANALYSIS IS CONDUCTED AND DIRECTION IS ISSUED. IMPACTED MEMBERS WILL THEN BE ADVISED OF THE ACTION PLAN AT THAT TIME 
4.	QUERIES RELATED TO AN INDIVIDUAL MEMBER S PAY ACCOUNTS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO THE APPROPRIATE LOCAL PAY SECTION


----------



## Shamrock (10 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Update......see recently released CANFORGEN 169/13.
> 
> 1.	SINCE 1 JANUARY 2001, MATA/PATA BENEFITS FOR THE REGULAR FORCE HAVE BEEN CALCULATED BASED ON THE NUMBER OF DAYS IN A CALENDAR MONTH, AS OPPOSED TO A 30 DAY AVERAGE AS REQUIRED BY QR AND O. AS SUCH, MATA/PATA BENEFITS WERE OVERPAID BY ONE DAY FOR EACH CALENDAR MONTH WITH 31 DAYS, AND BENEFITS IN THE MONTH OF FEB WERE UNDERPAID BY ONE OR TWO DAYS, DEPENDING ON WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS A LEAP YEAR. THIS SITUATION IS CURRENTLY BEING ASSESSED
> 2.	*ACCORDINGLY, PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT [size=22pt]FOR NOW NO REPEAT NO RECOVERIES OR PAYOUTS OF AMOUNTS CONCERNING THESE ADJUSTMENTS WILL BE ACTIONED [/size] *
> ...


----------



## Navy_Pete (10 Oct 2013)

Unfortunately the ORs have no idea who is affected and have had no direction yet on how to action it, other then they might have to manually verify everyone's pay.

Incidentally, one of the guys at work was going through his, and found that he had different rates for different 31 day months, and in some cases had deductions on 30 day months and credits on 31 day months, so looks like they may have also somehow also crapped the bed on how they calculated it.

I am also not entirely sure how I somehow managed to get a $0.01 credit for the first week of July.  I took 6 weeks from end may-early July about 5 years ago and they still somehow couldn't get a computer to crunch the numbers properly.

Well played DMPAP, well played.

This pay change brought to you by demotivator.com;


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## DAA (10 Oct 2013)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the ORs have no idea who is affected and have had no direction yet on how to action it, other then they might have to manually verify everyone's pay.
> 
> Incidentally, one of the guys at work was going through his, and found that he had different rates for different 31 day months, and in some cases had deductions on 30 day months and credits on 31 day months, so looks like they may have also somehow also crapped the bed on how they calculated it.
> 
> ...



As I have pretty much been "preaching" all along.  Do not "wait" for them to come to you, you HAVE to go the them!!!  This WILL be a "manual, hands on, hunt and peck" process.

So to put it bluntly, if I am the guy in the chair charged with managing the PON and you come to me on 16 Oct, after having received your pay statement well in advance, and now you find yourself short changed as a result of this.

Conversation will go something like this......"Sorry about that.  So you should have received your pay statement over a week ago and you are just coming in now to question it?  Here, let me provide you with a copy of QR&O 203.04 which will help make you feel better.  In the mean time, we will set you up to protect for this and the recovery amount will be DFT'd to your bank account in 5-7 working days"........next customer!


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## Navy_Pete (10 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> As I have pretty much been "preaching" all along.  Do not "wait" for them to come to you, you HAVE to go the them!!!  This WILL be a "manual, hands on, hunt and peck" process.
> 
> So to put it bluntly, if I am the guy in the chair charged with managing the PON and you come to me on 16 Oct, after having received your pay statement well in advance, and now you find yourself short changed as a result of this.
> 
> Conversation will go something like this......"Sorry about that.  So you should have received your pay statement over a week ago and you are just coming in now to question it?  Here, let me provide you with a copy of QR&O 203.04 which will help make you feel better.  In the mean time, we will set you up to protect for this and the recovery amount will be DFT'd to your bank account in 5-7 working days"........next customer!



Well, two things;

1) The actual amount is being taken off the end Oct pay.  So, for example, if you normally take home 3600/month, or 1800 every pay period, and you have a $200 recovery from the MATA/PATA, your mid October pay will still be 1800, with your closing balance being $1600.  So until they pay out mid Oct, and issue the end October pay statement, you won't know what it's going to be for sure due to the flux in their orders.  Also, I did contact the OR, they basically said they haven't really gotten any direction on what is going on, so keep an eye on your pay, and let them know right away if the money is taken off, as they can't really do anything right now.  Because this was done centrally, they are trying to avoid fixing it locally with a credit as people may get overpayed (again) if DMPAP cancels the initial deduction.

2) This isn't a situation where people were taking a benefit they weren't entitled to (ie collecting sea pay after a shore posting); this was a miscalculation on part of the pay system done centrally when figuring out the daily rate.  If you were to question the rate of pay, you would be told to not question it, they are the SMEs.  And it has been done this way for the last twelve years or so, so it's a systemic and long term error that cannot be realistically be attributed to the member, so (1) and (2) of QR&O 203.04 don't apply.  If I were to get that kind of reply at the pay office, I think I would go from being polite (as it really wasn't their fault) to being pretty angry (for going to the pay office for a pay issue not of my own making and having an order I'm aware of thrown back at me).

It's not that I'm saying that money isn't owed back, but considering the circumstances, there really was no rush to get it back.  This could have been handled a lot better, and been clearly communicated to allow people time to a) make sure the calculation is correct b) figure out how to pay it back in a reasonable time that doesn't mess with their finances.

As long as they've initiated the procedure to recover the money, the six year window doesn't suddenly close, as is clearly identified in both the act they cited as well as amplifying TB directives on overpayment recover procedures, so there wasn't the risk that they would be out of pocket.  Also, they do have the option to write the whole thing off in the TB directive on recovering overpayments, which in my opinion, would probably be the best way to go given the complete clusterf**k they've made of it so far, as they've probably wasted more in staff time already then the recovery is worth.

I have no sympathy at all for folks that don't report extra sea pay or whatever and have to pay it back; but this is completely different.  It's complete BS to tell people they are entitled to something, then try and claim it back after the fact because you miscounted your beans or misread the policy, which, to me, is a personal problem on the part of whoever authorized it.  It's ridiculous that you can get hung for making a mistake anywhere else but when a SME on pay and benefits screws up, it's somehow the members faults?  
[/end rant]


----------



## PPCLI Guy (10 Oct 2013)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> ot that I'm saying that money isn't owed back, but considering the circumstances, there really was no rush to get it back.  This could have been handled a lot better, and been clearly communicated to allow people time to a) make sure the calculation is correct b) figure out how to pay it back in a reasonable time that doesn't mess with their finances.



Please take yes for an answer:



> 2.   ACCORDINGLY, PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT FOR NOW NO REPEAT NO RECOVERIES OR PAYOUTS OF AMOUNTS CONCERNING THESE ADJUSTMENTS WILL BE ACTIONED



It appears to me that it has been identified that the approach to this problem has been a tad ham-fisted - and that has been acknowledged, and at the highest possible levels.  Let's wait and see how this will develop.


----------



## Strike (11 Oct 2013)

Well, I can just imagine how well this would have gone over for those of us still on parental, especially considering the recent issues with getting pay statements mailed via civilian email accounts.  It's only because of this site that I even had a shmeck about it and I wouldn't be able to do anything anyway since I'm literally on the other end of the planet.


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## Halifax Tar (11 Oct 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> Well, I can just imagine how well this would have gone over for those of us still on parental, especially considering the recent issues with getting pay statements mailed via civilian email accounts.  It's only because of this site that I even had a shmeck about it and I wouldn't be able to do anything anyway since I'm literally on the other end of the planet.



That's me your talking about. I haven't received a pay statement sense going on parental. I found out initially about this "adjustment" through Facebook from a buddy across the country and this site. My CoC still hasn't contacted me about this.


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## Strike (15 Oct 2013)

Seems EMAA decided not to send me my pay stub for this pay statement so just found out today that my pay was docked.    :facepalm:  Not my OR's fault though.  Called them up and was told the second they heard about the CANFORGEN they put a note on everyone's files to put a hold on any deductions but they had already been put through.


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## DAA (15 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> That's me your talking about. I haven't received a pay statement sense going on parental. I found out initially about this "adjustment" through Facebook from a buddy across the country and this site. My CoC still hasn't contacted me about this.



Your supporting Pay Office has the ability to receive Pay Statements on your behalf and then email them to you.  Good luck in getting them to figure it out!

Your best bet, is to get a "friend" to do this on your behalf, have the pay statements emailed to "their" DWAN account and then they can "forward" them along to you.

Oh wait a second!  What about the MATA/PATA Clerk doing that?


----------



## VanStoker (19 Nov 2013)

Hi there,

Just wondering if anyone can answer this question for me as the first few people I asked through my CoC didn't know the answer.

Am I required to pay mess dues while on Mata/Pata?

I spent a number of months getting paid from Employment Insurance while raising my baby, (the military topped me up to 90%) but I just noticed on all my pay stubs while I was on Mata/Pata I was being charged $15.00 for mess dues.

Is this normal?  Anyone know?

Thanks in advanced.


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## X Royal (19 Nov 2013)

If you were surviving on EI alone I can see your point but being topped up to 90% I can't see the problem.
A great many on the civilian side have to survive without any top up. If you have a decent paying civilian job once you hit EI max that's it. Many times this can be far less than 50% of your before leave income.


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## VanStoker (19 Nov 2013)

Hmmm,  I see where you are coming from. However my question is still outstanding.  

To my knowledge, this $15.00 per month is required to be paid by all active members of the mess for the privilege of participating in the mess, and being allowed access to mess functions (ie fleet club, functions, etc.), of which I had no involvement with during my Mata/Pata leave.

I was hoping someone with experience in this matter could shed some light.


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## X Royal (19 Nov 2013)

westcoastsailor said:
			
		

> To my knowledge, this $15.00 per month is required to be paid by all active members of the mess for the privilege of participating in the mess, and being allowed access to mess functions (ie fleet club, functions, etc.), of which I had no involvement with during my Mata/Pata leave.


Just because you opted to not go to the mess doesn't mean you were not able to.
I have had members challenge paying mess dues because they chose not to go to the mess. Every time they were told too bad that's your choice.


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## jpjohnsn (19 Nov 2013)

When my wife was on maternity leave a year-and-a-half ago, she found a CANFORGEN on the matter.

While on LWOP (like parental leave), as long as you are not frequenting the mess, dues are suspended for the duration of your leave.  You can still go to private functions at the mess (like weddings) but if you go to a mess function or start going to the mess again, the requirement to pay dues starts up again.


----------



## dangerboy (19 Nov 2013)

https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/Library/PoliciesandRegulations/PSP/Documents/CFAO%2027-1%20Amendment%20CANFORGEN_150_09e.pdf



> CANFORGEN 150/09 CMP 062/09 201445Z AUG 09
> CFAO 27
> -
> 1 AMENDMENT
> ...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2013)

I am no Admin SME but...aren't you still being paid (even a %) by the CAF while on MATA/PATA and if so...how is that Leave Without Pay?


----------



## Cadwr (19 Nov 2013)

From QR&O 16.27 - Parental Leave

(2) (Definition) In this article, "parental leave" means a period of leave without pay and allowances granted to an officer or non-commissioned member for parental or paternity purposes relating to one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted. (20 July 2006)

Thus, the CF defines Parental leave as a period of leave without Pay and Allowances.  

Separately, DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits, and A-PM-245-001/FP-011 Chapter 17, Maternity and Parental Benefits Administration, detail a list of benefits one can receive while not being in receipt of Pay and allowances during Maternity/Parental leave.

(edit: to add that QR&O 16.26, Maternity leave, has the same definition for that type of leave as presented above for parental leave.)


----------



## Strike (19 Nov 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am no Admin SME but...aren't you still being paid (even a %) by the CAF while on MATA/PATA and if so...how is that Leave Without Pay?



If one was on salary during that time (ie - not being paid through an allowance) then one would also still be paying into pension.  During that period of time you are essentially not on strength.


----------



## Lightguns (20 Nov 2013)

Correct it is a taxable benefit not a pay check. You are on leave without pay and administered as such locally. 

Edit. My daughter asked and was told that she was not entitled to wear a uniform while on MATA because it was LWOP. She attended Nov 11 in civies with medals.


----------



## Pusser (20 Nov 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Correct it is a taxable benefit not a pay check. You are on leave without pay and administered as such locally.
> 
> Edit. My daughter asked and was told that she was not entitled to wear a uniform while on MATA because it was LWOP. She attended Nov 11 in civies with medals.



I would say that your daughter received some bogus information.  I would argue that a member on LWOP is still a member of the CF  (i.e. he/she has not been released; therefore the uniform restrictions in QR&O 15.09 do not apply) and thus entitled to wear the appropriate CF uniform on suitable occasions.  QR&O Chapter 17 (Dress and Appearance) makes no mention of any restriction on wearing uniforms while on leave, of any type, unless the member is outside the country at the time:

 17.06 - WEARING OF UNIFORM - RESTRICTION

(1) Except that an officer or non-commissioned member may wear a military uniform of obsolete pattern that is not likely to be confused with current dress, no member shall wear any part of military uniform at a fancy dress ball.

(2) No member of the Reserve Force shall wear uniform except when:

on service; or

attending a military entertainment or a ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate.

(3) A former member of the Regular Force or Reserve Force, who was released for a reason other than misconduct may wear uniform:

with the permission of an officer commanding a command or his designated authority and such other officers as may be designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, 

when attending a military entertainment or ceremony at which the wearing of uniform is appropriate; and

on other occasions with the permission of the Chief of the Defence Staff.


----------



## medic1sd (29 Nov 2013)

i been told before to have more taxes taken off before you go on mata/ pata leave. is this true? if it is how can i go about getting this done? should i do it? how will it affect me now as we have some finicial issues which are manageable. and how many days of leave will i have come this apr? ( i am due in june)


----------



## ModlrMike (29 Nov 2013)

I'm pretty sure, having previously spent years at your current unit, that there's someone in the OR that can give you a more correct answer than we can here.


----------



## Cansky (29 Nov 2013)

If your having financial issues you may wish to engage your chain of command to find resources to help you before you go on mata/pata.


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## Strike (29 Nov 2013)

I don't know about taxes, but you will want to put a bit of money aside every month to pay back your pension.  Talk to your OR and they will work out how much based on how much time you will be on MATA/PATA. Now, you have the option of paying it back in monthly installments, but you will save more money by putting some aside and paying it back in one lump sum.  The difference in mine between a lump sum payback and monthly installments was something $1,500.


----------



## luke_l (1 Dec 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> The difference in mine between a lump sum payback and monthly installments was something $1,500.



Can anyone confirm whether or not this is true?  I spent 6 months on PATA, and am just doing my pension payback the "default" way month by month (they never even really gave me an option).  I would like to assume that there is no difference in the total dollar value whether you pay it back monthly or all at once, but hey, you never know.


----------



## Sparkplugs (2 Dec 2013)

You should have a MATA/PATA clerk at your base orderly room. They'll know about the pension thing, and mine offered me a form so I could elect to take more taxes off of my military top-up (because EI doesn't take enough taxes, and you'll end up owing come tax time.) They recommended me a certain amount, said it was the usual, so I went with it. Still ended up owing a couple grand come tax time, so I've told some of the other guys in my unit to look into have more taken out -- worst case, you give the feds an interest-free loan and get money back come tax time. Best case, you don't end up owing two grand to the feds with a brand-new baby at home. If you want more info from me, feel free to PM me. But the best source of info will come from your MATA/PATA clerk -- this is what they're trained to do. Use them as that resource.


----------



## rocksteady (10 Sep 2014)

My wife has been on maternity leave for about 9 months now.  She is a civi and got topped up from her employer.  Can I take the rest of the MAT leave?  If so would I be topped up?  Also how much notice do I have to give the CF that I want to take the rest of the MAT leave?

The reason I ask is that she may go back to work a bit early to take a job opportunity.

Thanks.


----------



## mkil (22 Dec 2014)

Good Day all,

Just wondering if anyone in much longer than me knows the regulations regarding career advancement if pregnant/ on MAT leave. Just a little background would help I suppose. 

I am looking into applying for the SCP in August when the CANFORGEN comes out. I meet the educational and experience requirements for the trade I would be applying for. My husband and I are talking about expanding our family. If I am pregnant or on MAT leave, am I still able to go through with the application process, interview etc? I would only take mat leave up until I am required for training in a new trade (*IF* my application is successful), and my husband would take Paternity leave for the remainder. 

I know in civvy world a woman cannot be discriminated against because of pregnancy, but I think there might be limitations in the forces. Anyone know the rules? Or knows a guy who knows a guy lol

Thanks all!


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## dapaterson (22 Dec 2014)

Talk to the PSO; they should have the most up to date information.


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## Nuggs (21 Dec 2015)

Can a member take multiple periods of parental leave for the same child?

Assuming that there is no more than the 35 weeks parental used between the member and the spouse.


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## mariomike (21 Dec 2015)

For reference,

16.27 - PARENTAL LEAVE

(1) (Application) This article applies to an officer or non-commissioned member of the Regular Force or the Reserve Force on Class  "B" or "C" Reserve Service.

(2) (Definition) In this article, "parental leave" means a period of leave without pay and allowances granted to an officer or non-commissioned member for parental or paternity purposes relating to one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted.

(3) (Eligibility) An officer or non-commissioned member is entitled to parental leave, on request, if the member:
a.has the care and custody of one or more new-born children of the member;
b.starts legal proceedings under the laws of a province to adopt one or more children who are placed with the member for the purpose of adoption; or
c.obtains an order under the laws of a province for the adoption of one or more children.

(4) (Period of Leave) The period of parental leave is up to:
a.a period of 37 weeks; or
b.if the officer or non-commissioned member is entitled to a period of leave under article 16.26 (Maternity Leave), a period of the sum of the applicable periods of entitlement referred to in CBI subparagraph 205.461(4)(b) (Maternity and Parental Allowances) and paragraph 205.461(7).

(5) (Start and End of Period) The period of parental leave shall be taken within 52 weeks of the day on which the child or children of the officer or non-commissioned member are born or the day on which the member first became entitled to parental leave under subparagraph (3)(b) or (c).

(6) (Extension) The end date of the period of parental leave shall be extended by any of the following periods:
a.any period during which one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted are hospitalized, if the officer or non-commissioned member has not yet started the period of the parental leave;
b.any period during which the officer or non-commissioned member, having started but not ended the period of the parental leave, returns to duty while one or more new-born or adopted children or children to be adopted are hospitalized; and
c.any period during which the officer or non-commissioned member, having started but not ended the period of the parental leave, is directed to return to duty by the commanding officer because of imperative military requirements.

(7) (Limitation) A period of parental leave
a.extended under subparagraph 6(a) or 6(b) shall end no later than 52 weeks after the day on which the officer or non-commissioned member first becomes entitled to parental leave under paragraph (3); or
b.extended under subparagraph 6(c) or deferred under paragraph (8) shall end no later than 104 weeks after the day on which the officer or non-commissioned member first becomes entitled to parental leave under paragraph (3).

(8) (Military Requirements) A commanding officer may defer the start date of the period of parental leave if there are military imperative requirements.

(9) (Combined Periods - Parental Reasons) Subject to paragraph (10), if both parents are members of the Canadian Forces, the sum of the periods of parental leave to which the parents are entitled under this article, or the sum of the periods of parental leave under this article and any exemption from duty and training under article 9.10 (Exemption from Duty and Training - Parental Purposes) to which the parents are entitled, shall not exceed 37 weeks.

(10) (Combined Periods - Parental and Maternity Reasons) If both parents are members of the Canadian Forces and one parent is entitled to an exemption from duty and training under article 9.09 (Exemption From Duty and Training - Maternity Purposes) or is entitled to maternity leave under article 16.26, the sum of the period of exemption from duty and training under article 9.09 or maternity leave under article 16.26 to which a parent is entitled, and the periods of parental leave under this article and any exemption from duty and training under article 9.10 to which the parents are entitled, shall not exceed 52 weeks.

(11) (Transitional) The end date of the period of parental leave for an officer or non-commissioned member to whom section 4 of the Fairness for Military Families (Employment Insurance) Act applies is extended in the same manner as the period referred to in subsection 23(2) of the Employment Insurance Act as determined by the application of that section.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page


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## dapaterson (21 Dec 2015)

Ref: a. QR&O 16.27: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-16.page#cha-016-27
b. Leave Policy Manual (see 8.3): http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page#chap8

Neither ref discusses that situation; ref a discusses PATA only in the context of a single period.  That said, I recommend finding the MATA/PATA clerk for your base and asking the question; they will have the most recent policy updates and interpretations available.


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## Nuggs (21 Dec 2015)

Yeah, I couldn't seem to find an applicable regulation.

The actual situation is:

Following the birth of my child I was on a career course. I proceeded on PATA for 10 weeks.

I recently returned to work (dec 7th).

Our plans at that point were for my wife to open a dayhome and start bringing in children upon completion of her maternity and remaining parental benefits.

I was under the understanding that I would be remaining in an operational / sea going unit for the next year to two, especially as I had been recently promoted.

On Thursday the CM dropped the bomb that I would be posted to Ottawa next APS.

I had no issues with it, and the wife was actually excited to move.

In trying to work out the financial details, we had discussed the possibility of her returning to work early and me proceeding back on PATA (pending COs co approval of course).

The reason for this being her parental benefits would expire at the same time that my posting would occur. Leaving her with no work and no EI relocation benefits.

Service Canada tells me that is a non-issue.

The local PATA clerk tells me that is not possible. That members are only entitled to one period of PATA regardless of duration. I'm still awaiting a reference.

Just wondering if anyone has seen a similar situation before. I was pretty sure I'd heard of members going back on PATA before, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Just tossing around ideas at this point. I don't think IR is an option as it seems to be a fairly substantial financial hit these days. And after almost 7 years at sea it would be nice to get a shore posting, especially with 2 small children.


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## Nuggs (22 Dec 2015)

For anyone that may be curious, or have the same future issue, the policy clarification from DGCB reads:

If a Regular Force member or Reserve Force member on Class ‘B’ or ‘C’ decides to go back to work before his/her parental leave is done without an IMR, and then returns on LWOP-Parental, then no PATA will be paid.

You are able to request to go on LWOP personal if it is approved, but there would be no top up, you would only have EI Benefits.


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## Rheostatic (16 Feb 2016)

Can a class A reserve member be ED&T for a period of time, and then still be eligible to be ED&T For Parental Purposes (parental leave) later in the same year?

Are class A reserve members eligible for parental allowance? (I would think not, but I've heard conflicting advice.)


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## dapaterson (16 Feb 2016)

There is no allowance for class A members on ED&T for parental purposes, though they are eligible for EI.  I believe there are also provisions for pension buy-back under part I.1 or part I of the CFSA (whichever one the person belongs to).


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## Rheostatic (16 Feb 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is no allowance for class A members on ED&T for parental purposes, though they are eligible for EI.


 I expected as much; thanks for confirming.


			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> I believe there are also provisions for pension buy-back under part I.1 or part I of the CFSA (whichever one the person belongs to).


I haven't seen this in any of the parental leave policies I've read so far. Where can I find out more about this?


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## dapaterson (16 Feb 2016)

For Part I.1 (the Reserve pension), see the Reserve Force Pension Plan Regulations (http://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2007-32/FullText.html) for the definition of earnings:

2b  a member who is exempted from training and duty under article 9.09 or 9.10 or was granted leave for maternity or parental purposes under article 16.26 or 16.27 of the Queen’s Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces is deemed to be in receipt of earnings, during each week for which the member is exempted or granted leave, equal to the weekly rate of pay calculated in accordance with instruction 205.461 of the Compensation and Benefits Instructions for the Canadian Forces established under section 35 of the National Defence Act;

and 

For Part I (Reg F pension), see the Canadian Forces Superannuation Regulations (http://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._396/FullText.html):

3(1) Days of Canadian Forces service are
(a) in the regular force, days of service for which pay was authorized to be paid and days of leave for maternity or parental purposes granted under the Queen’s Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces; and
...
(b) in the reserve force,
...
(ii) in the proportion determined under subsection (3), days in a period of exemption or leave referred to in paragraph 2(b) of the Reserve Force Pension Plan Regulations, and

See also S11, Service Without Pay, which goes into greater detail.


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## Rheostatic (16 Feb 2016)

Thanks for that. 

Any insight on my first question? Can a class A reserve member be ED&T for a period of time, and then still be eligible to be ED&T For Parental Purposes (parental leave) later in the same year?


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## dapaterson (16 Feb 2016)

Nothing I see says you can't.  Local units have been known to deviate from the rules...


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## jedib0p (6 Mar 2016)

Does anyone know if the intent of the updated QR&O 16.14 is intended to affect the annual leave reduction during parental leave?

Previous to the update a members annual leave entitlement was reduced by 2 days per month. The new QR&O language could imply 3 annual days are forfeited for the first month and 2 for every month after while on parental. 

QR&O 16.14 and the CF Leave Policy Manual were both amended 1 Apr 2015. The manual still has language that supports the leave reduction policy. 

16.14 - ANNUAL LEAVE

(4) Subject to paragraph (7), an officer or non-commissioned member of the Regular Force is entitled to annual leave equivalent to

- in respect of each fiscal year, other than one in which they are enrolled in or transferred to the Regular Force or cease to serve in the Regular Force,

- if they have not completed five years of service, two working days for each month of paid service during that fiscal year, to a maximum of 20 working days,
- if they have completed at least five years but less than 28 years of service, two working days for each of the first 11 months of paid service during that fiscal year, and three working days for the 12th such month, to a maximum of 25 working days, and


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## PuckChaser (6 Mar 2016)

You gain an entitlement to the 25th annual leave day in March. If you pulled pin on 28 Feb, but had spent 25 annual already, you'd owe the Crown 3 annual days when they do the leave audit. 

If you went on parental in December, you'd not be entitled to those 3 days in March, because you're on MATA/PATA. Did you somehow think you'd only forfeit 24 annual days, even though your entitlement is 25? I'm sure if you came back to work (completed the 12 months) before end Feb, you'd get those 3 days in March, so its fair for everyone.


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## jedib0p (6 Mar 2016)

From the CF Leave Policy Manual:

Effective 1 November 2008, annual leave shall be reduced at the following rates, for each complete calendar month of non-paid service granted or imposed in a fiscal year:
a. for members entitled to 20 or 25 days annual leave at the time when the member commences non-paid service – two days for each complete calendar month of non-paid service; or

Example. Member takes parental from mid June - mid September. Member would forfeit 4 days of annual leave entitlement (2 for July and 2 for August) giving him 21 annual days for the year. 

Using the new QR&O language that member would only be entitled to 10 months of leave entitlement at 2 days per month for each month on payroll (at least partially). Only 20 annual days for the year.


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## Strike (7 Mar 2016)

So, here's one for you.  I burned off all my leave anticipating starting MATA/PATA at the end of March.  But now going in for a c-section for Wednesday.

Do I now owe days back?  And, if so, how many?


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## Ostrozac (7 Mar 2016)

Strike said:
			
		

> So, here's one for you.  I burned off all my leave anticipating starting MATA/PATA at the end of March.  But now going in for a c-section for Wednesday.
> 
> Do I now owe days back?  And, if so, how many?



You look good to me -- as long as you've served one day in March (and you already have) you get the leave for the month of March. You get annual leave for each month or partial month you serve.


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## Old Sweat (7 Mar 2016)

Strike said:
			
		

> So, here's one for you.  I burned off all my leave anticipating starting MATA/PATA at the end of March.  But now going in for a c-section for Wednesday.
> 
> Do I now owe days back?  And, if so, how many?



Good luck, Strike. Looking forward to hearing how you and yours make out!


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## Rheostatic (22 Apr 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is no allowance for class A members on ED&T for parental purposes, though they are eligible for EI.


Forgive me; I've read through CBI 205.461 - Maternity and Parental Allowances over and over again, but I still don't see where it excludes Class A members from PATA.  

I certainly would not be surprised if you're correct, and I wouldn't expect the PATA for a Class A member to be large, but I also wouldn't want to miss out on a benefit because I misinterpreted the rules.

So which part of the rules (i.e. which para in CBI 205.461) exclude Class A from PATA? Again I have conflicting advice from my organization, one agrees with dapaterson; the other insists that class A members can collect a small PATA allowance. Any advice is appreciated.


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2016)

Paragraph (3)c requires your eligibility under EI or the QPIP to be solely based on military income.


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## Rheostatic (26 Apr 2016)

I see. So Class A is not explicitly excluded, but a Class A member who is eligible for EI based on some other, civilian employment would not be eligible for PATA. 

Class A members do pay EI premiums though, and I'm sure some Class A members would meet the EI eligibility criteria of 600 hours worked in the previous 52 weeks. I can see how the section you quoted would exclude some, but not all Class A members from collecting a parental allowance. Thanks for your answer.


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## Rheostatic (28 Apr 2016)

For future reference, MHRRP Chapter 17 offers some clarification on maternity/parental allowance for Class A members.


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## CdnInfanteer (29 Jun 2016)

Hi,

My wife is military. She was a part-time reservist and start full-time late last year. We had a child together in April. Prior to being full-time in the army last fall, she was full-time working for the BC Provincial government and doing some Class A on the side. The military tops up to 93% but we were a bit surprised when we found out that was only going to be around $5,000 dollars. She earned around $60,000 in the preceding 12 months with about $33,000 in the Army, most of that after she started working full-time. They calculated 93% of the $33,000 which was around $31,000. Fine, but then they took off around $25,000 because that was EI. She would be qualified to get EI from her other civi job that she had worked previously so should the army be taking that off they're top off?

Does anybody else have experience with this either going Class B or RegF less than 12 months prior to going on Mata or Pata after working full-time in the civilian world?

Thanks!


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## dapaterson (29 Jun 2016)

Rules for MATA/PATA are well spelled out in the CBIs.  You get EI, and the military tops you up based on a formula that's spelled out in regulations.  For Reservists, the top up is based on your military earnings in the past 12 months - other income is not included.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-205-officer-ncm-allowance-rates.page 

205.461(8) (Weekly rate of pay) For the purpose of paragraphs (6) and (7), the weekly rate of pay:

for a member of the Regular Force, is seven-thirtieths of the monthly rate of pay; or
for a member of the Reserve Force, is based on the number of paid days served on Class A, B and C Reserve Service and Regular Force service in the 364-day period immediately prior to commencing maternity leave or parental leave, calculated as follows:
[Total paid days on Class A Reserve Service] × [Current rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Class A Reserve Service]
+
[Total paid days on Class B Reserve Service] × [Current rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Class B Reserve Service]
+
[Total paid days on Class C Reserve Service] × [Current monthly rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Class C Reserve Service divided by 30]
+
[Total paid days on Regular Force service] × [Current monthly rate of pay for the last rank and applicable incentive pay category achieved on Regular Force service divided by 30]
× 7
÷ The lesser of 364 days or the number of days during the period beginning on the day of enrolment and ending on the day before commencing maternity or paternal leave.


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## RubberTree (11 Sep 2016)

Hello all, 
MATA/PATA question regarding IMR and Extended parental benefits:
The gov't website states: "To provide more flexibility for Canadian Forces members, the EI parental benefit eligibility period can be extended up to a maximum of 104 weeks." (http://www.esdc.gc.ca/en/ei/military_families.page)

Is this 104 weeks until MATA/PATA must commence or 104 weeks before all benefits cease? 
I appreciate any thoughts on the matter. 
Thanks
RT


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## Nuggs (11 Sep 2016)

Unless I'm mistaken it's until all benefits cease. Aka you could taken 15 months after the birth for 9 months. The benefits cease after 2 years vs the civilian 52 weeks

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## BakkerS (14 Oct 2016)

Hi all
RegF lady here

Planning to start mata/pata in January, and my TOS end in June. Ideally I'd like to take my leave until the end of my contract, and opt to not be topped up by the military, so that I am not required to pay the leave back in "working days". They're clear that the allowance must be paid back in days, but is it even possible to not opt for the allowance in the first place? From what I've read it seems like this could work, although it is not specifically stated. It also looks like the eligibility for the leave and the allowances go hand in hand, although I would be more than happy with just the leave and they can keep the allowance!
Meeting with my mata/pata clerk next week, just want to walk in there prepared and with realistic expectations.
Does anyone have experience with a situation like this?


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## Rheostatic (16 Oct 2016)

BakkerS said:
			
		

> Hi all
> RegF lady here
> 
> Planning to start mata/pata in January, and my TOS end in June. Ideally I'd like to take my leave until the end of my contract, and opt to not be topped up by the military, so that I am not required to pay the leave back in "working days". They're clear that the allowance must be paid back in days, but is it even possible to not opt for the allowance in the first place? From what I've read it seems like this could work, although it is not specifically stated. It also looks like the eligibility for the leave and the allowances go hand in hand, although I would be more than happy with just the leave and they can keep the allowance!
> ...


Yes. There are separate eligibility criteria for leave and for the allowance, so it follows that some people would have to take leave without the allowance. The form (DND 2268) has an area where you will indicate whether you want the allowance. 
(Not a clerk, just a guy who took parental leave recently.)


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## brihard (20 Jan 2017)

Got a question, I'm helping do a bit of research for someone.

Background
- Member is pregnant and on LWOR pregnancy  will be LWOP MATA once the baby arrives.
- Member returns to duty in the fall.
- Member is a private, due for a normal 'on time' promotion to Cpl shortly.
- Member had inquired about but did not receive early promotion.
- It is understood that promotion should not normally happen til member returns to duty, as no military function is being carried out.

Situation
- If the member were to have been promoted in February, she believes she would get a PER for FY16-17.
- As a result of not getting a 16-17 PER, she believes she will be at a disadvantage, essentially set back a year for when she will begin to be merit listed as a Cpl, with the corresponding advancement towards PLQ, MCpl, etc.
- Net result is that had she not become pregnant, she would be a year ahead in terms of being considered for career advancement. Ipso facto, there's an argument to potentially be made that there is some discrimination based on pregnancy.

Question: Is there any resource based in policy or adjudicative decisions that would allow this member to avoid or mitigate this potential one year career setback due to pregnancy / MATA leave?

I don't have any personal connection to this one, it's just someone who came to me looking for some help. Any insight would be appreciated.


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## BrownCoatOtaku (14 Mar 2017)

CANFORGEN 038/17 CMP 022/17 141424Z FEB 17

PROMOTION POLICY FOR MEMBERS ON MATERNITY AND PARENTAL LEAVE

UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CFAO 11-6 COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY-OFFICERS-REGULAR FORCE 
 B. CFAO 49-12 PROMOTION POLICY - OFFICERS - PRIMARY RESERVE 
 C. CFAO 49-4 CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS REGULAR FORCE 
 D. CFAO 49-5 CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBER - PRIMARY RESERVE 

1. AS A RESULT OF A GRIEVANCE, THE CDS DIRECTED AN UPDATE TO THE POLICY ON PROMOTION WHILE ON MATERNITY AND PARENTAL LEAVE 


2. THIS POLICY WILL BE APPLICABLE TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE CAF. THE PROMOTION DATE FOR MEMBERS ON MATERNITY OR PARENTAL LEAVE WILL BE THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF PROMOTION AS PER THE PROMOTION MESSAGE OR LETTER. NORMALLY THIS WILL BE SET AT NO LATER THAN 14 DAYS PRIOR TO THE COS OR, WHEN ALL REQUIREMENTS ARE ACHIEVED IN CASES WHERE NO COS IS NEEDED 


3. NEW PROMOTION POLICIES WILL BE AMENDED TO REFLECT THIS NEW APPROACH. SENIORITY WILL STILL BE GIVEN AS PER THE PRESENT POLICIES 


4. THIS CHANGE IS EFFECTIVE AS OF THE DATE OF PUBLICATION OF THIS CANFORGEN 


5. QUESTIONS MAY BE REFERRED TO DMCPG 2-3 THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND


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## medgoal (2 Apr 2017)

Anyone have and wisdom/insight/predictions into how the federal govt's promise of 18-mo mat leave will affect MATA/PATA?
When would those changes take effect? And only for people starting their mat leave after that date or those already on it? 

I see this under QR&O 16.26 (7): 

(7) (Maternity Benefits Extended) If a period of maternity benefits received under the Employment Insurance Act, or a provincial law or scheme, is extended in accordance with the Employment Insurance Act or the provincial law or scheme because the officer or non-commissioned member returns to duty under paragraph (6), the end date of the period of maternity leave granted shall be extended by the period that the maternity benefits are extended under the applicable law or scheme.

TIA


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## Soiled (7 Apr 2017)

medgoal said:
			
		

> Anyone have and wisdom/insight/predictions into how the federal govt's promise of 18-mo mat leave will affect MATA/PATA?
> When would those changes take effect? And only for people starting their mat leave after that date or those already on it?
> 
> I see this under QR&O 16.26 (7):
> ...



Bear in mind that the QR&O you are quoting is for Maternity Leave, and the 18 months of benefits that the federal govt is talking about would be affecting the parental leave/benefits. QR&O 16.27 for Parental Leave doesn't have any similar paras. Maternity benefits only make up the initial 17 weeks of MATA/PATA. I believe the changes announced in the budget would primarily affect Parental Leave. 

Once the actual legislation has been enacted, IE changes to the EI Act and such, then DND's decision makers will be able to decide on making changes to QR&O 16.27, and CBI 205.461. Though just because EI benefits are changing, doesn't necessarily mean that we will alter our top up for the additional six months.


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## Crimmsy (18 Nov 2017)

I have an email in to the PATA clerk to seek the real answer, but it's Saturday, so here I am  

Question: what would cause the pay system to issue a 0.00 current payment at end-month, leaving a positive closing balance, for a member on parental leave?

Background:
Commenced parental leave on 22 Oct, so the end-Oct pay was already in the system as full pay.
Mid-Nov, my October pay was adjusted for the LWOP period, but PATA allowance hadn't yet been inputted. With the adjustment for October, _current pay and allowances_ was negative, but a _current payment_ was issued, so closing balance was a larger negative. All good, I knew everything would square up once PATA allowance was applied.
End-Nov, PATA allowance is applied, so the negative opening balance is resolved, but now _current payment_ is zero and _closing balance_ is positive in the amount I'd have expected my current payment to be. Why would there be a positive closing balance at end month?

Thanks in advance to any pay gurus with insight.


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Nov 2017)

I have exactly the same problem with a back pay issue. When I get answer, I will be sure to share it here.


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## kev994 (18 Nov 2017)

I got a similar closing balance pay statement today with no payment for end Nov. I’m OUTCAN and just assumed it had something to do with a guy with the same last name went back to Canada this fall. My currency was also changed to CAD.


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Nov 2017)

kev994 said:
			
		

> I got a similar closing balance pay statement today with no payment for end Nov. I’m OUTCAN and just assumed it had something to do with a guy with the same last name went back to Canada this fall. My currency was also changed to CAD.



Oh, that sucks!


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## Nuggs (18 Nov 2017)

Maybe we switched to Pheonix and they forgot to tell us [emoji39]

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## kev994 (18 Nov 2017)

Nuggs said:
			
		

> Maybe we switched to Pheonix and they forgot to tell us [emoji39]
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I figured they didn’t want us to feel left out.


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## OutLookingIn (27 Nov 2017)

Any more information available now that the 18months has been approved and is to start for the Federal Gov in Dec? Any ideas how that will affect members?


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## Lloydjohn93 (6 Feb 2018)

I have a question maybe somebody can answer. What is considered "imperative military requirement" . I'm supposed to be going on parental leave as of the 23rd of February. (Spouse is being induced) and it seemed to be a sure thing but now they want a note saying my spouse needs me for medical reasons to go on leave otherwise it will be deferred until after my courses. I'm going to get the note regardless. But on the forces site it says it can only be delayed because of imperative military requirement and that parental is my right to take it. In my mind that would mean war, or a deployment. Is there anything legal I could do if they deferred it if training wasn't under that ?


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## kev994 (6 Feb 2018)

Maybe check the leave manual, it’s been a while but I seem to remember there is a bit specifically stating that a course is not a reason to deny pata


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## Lloydjohn93 (6 Feb 2018)

Thank you


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## mariomike (6 Feb 2018)

For reference,

DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5001-2.page

Leave Policy Manual
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/leave-policy.page
Date modified: 2017-12-05


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## Nuggs (6 Feb 2018)

Career courses generally count. But most CMs defer for parental.

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## sidemount (6 Feb 2018)

(8) (Military Requirements) A commanding officer may defer the start date of the period of parental leave if there are military imperative requirements.


Thats the only mention that I can find in the regs.

I would argue that a career course is not an imperative military requirement. 

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## Nuggs (6 Feb 2018)

I agree, however:

IMR include, but are not limited to:

participating in an operational deployment or major military exercise;

participating in an unforecasted tasking;

attending a career course;

attending a court martial; or

posting or attached posting (including any action related to it, such as HHT, out-clearances, travelling time, Special Leave (Relocation))

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## SupersonicMax (6 Feb 2018)

It would be silly for you CoC to prioritize your course over your family.  Yes, it is per the instructions but there are chances it'd break you or your family.  The implications for the CAF would be greater than defering a career course for a couple of months...


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## sidemount (6 Feb 2018)

Do you mind posting the ref for that...Id like to add that to my bookmarks of useful mil refs

Interesting to see what military considers imparative...and really I dont think any of those are worthy of denying parental (besides a legal summons but thats kind of a interesting one). I would argue that there isn't one example of where a person isn't replaceable. Lets be honest, there is always someone else that can replace us, and career courses are run regularly.

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## Sub_Guy (7 Feb 2018)

I always thought “imperative” meant that it was only something you and you only could do.

If the Op/Mission/task would fail without your presence, then I’d say that’s imperative (IMHO).

I’ve never seen a career course trump parental leave.

You can be recalled off parental leave for stuff (courts martial, posting, etc..).


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## Nuggs (7 Feb 2018)

sidemount said:
			
		

> Do you mind posting the ref for that...Id like to add that to my bookmarks of useful mil refs
> 
> Interesting to see what military considers imparative...and really I dont think any of those are worthy of denying parental (besides a legal summons but thats kind of a interesting one). I would argue that there isn't one example of where a person isn't replaceable. Lets be honest, there is always someone else that can replace us, and career courses are run regularly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Leave Policy Manual

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## Nuggs (7 Feb 2018)

Agreed.

In past experience with subordinates I've never seen it be an issue for either CMs or COs. Especially if it was a Killick / Corporal.

I have seen two times in the past... One was a Senior NCM that needed the course for an OUTCAN that would have followed parental leave. And the other one was a Junior NCM involving a career course thats run rarely (every 18 months or so).

I have had one CO that attempted to block my own parental (70 days), for a forcegen sail.

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## PuckChaser (7 Feb 2018)

Keep in mind the OP is brand new to the CAF and is waiting for a QL3 course for AVS tech. If that course is not run very often and the OP was not planning on taking the full year, I can definitely see where the imperative military requirement could be used. This is not deferring a QL5 or PLQ, its to get the member to OFP.

Let's make sure we have the whole story before anyone starts claiming decisively that it's not IMR.


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## sidemount (7 Feb 2018)

Nuggs said:
			
		

> Leave Policy Manual
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


And right at the very first of it....thanks, I obviously skipped right over that part.

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## captloadie (7 Feb 2018)

What would you do, say for an individual working on a sponsored Masters programme, where the courses required are only run the winter semester, and is scheduled to finish at the end of the school year? Allowing the member to take time away from their studies could mean the individual now needs to wait until Jan 2019 to complete their training.


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## Rheostatic (31 May 2018)

Have there been any changes to CAF parental leave periods and benefits since the 2017 introduction of "Extended parental benefits" to the federal employment insurance program? Or, is it still limited to 37 weeks within the first year?


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## dapaterson (31 May 2018)

There was a CANFORGEN late last year. Short version: top up is still one year total MATA PATA combined,  but EI can be extended.

There are pension implications.


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## Rheostatic (1 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There was a CANFORGEN late last year. Short version: top up is still one year total MATA PATA combined,  but EI can be extended.
> 
> There are pension implications.


Thanks. Basically the CANFORGEN says, no change until the policies are updated. QR&O 16.27 still reads "(4) (Period of Leave) The period of parental leave is up to... a period of 37 weeks", and for Class A reserve members, QR&O 9.10 reads "(3) (Period of Exemption) The period of exemption from duty and training for parental purposes is up to... a period of 37 weeks"


I understand that EI can be extended, but you'd need to be on leave to get EI. Are members being allowed to take some other non-parental LWOP after their 37 weeks, to extend their leave up to 61 weeks? (I'm not concerned with allowances, just leave.)


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## dapaterson (1 Jun 2018)

In the LWOP table in the leave manual, the final item in the table includes leave for other purposes; if it's over 30 days, DGMC is the approving authority.


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## Rheostatic (1 Jun 2018)

OK, in practice, is that how extended parental leave is currently being handled, using "leave for other purposes"?


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## dapaterson (1 Jun 2018)

That's my understanding.


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## Lumber (8 Jan 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> That's my understanding.



"A commanding officer may defer the start date of the period of parental leave if there are military imperative requirements."

There's a 8 month course coming up. My wife is due in the middle of month 6. There is another course starting just after this one, but they want me on the first course. The first course will _not_ be in the same city as where my wife resides, but the second course will. (i.e. if I go on the first course, I will very likely miss the birth, but if I go on the second course, I won't miss it).

If I tell my Career Manager to NOT load me on the upcoming course, but they do anyways, and then I go and request parental leave now, and my CO supports it, does that trump the CM? The leave manual and the QR&Os state that it is the CO's authority to both grant parental leave, and to enact the clause that allows them to defer parental leave due to military imperative requirements. 

So, can my CO trump the CM? Can I request parental leave _now_, 6 months before I actually need it? My plan would be to take parental leave from the time of birth up to the start of the 2nd course (about 2 months).


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## CountDC (14 Jan 2019)

If you know the due date then you can submit your parental form and leave pass anytime you want.  I had my staff member submit once she informed me she was pregnant and I always submitted mine well in advance. Some times I do up all my planned leave passes for the entire year right at the beginning so there is no question about it.


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## OdinsBeard (12 Dec 2019)

Good day folks,

Quick question for a SME or anybody with experience;

Can I release while on PATA, I have recently began PATA and a opportunity has arisen in which I would like to release for the 6 month timeline. The question is can I begin my release while on PATA, stay on PATA for 3 months and then work 3 months before I release.

Assistance on this matter would be fantastic. Thank you in advance.


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## CountDC (16 Dec 2019)

Short answer - contact your mata/pata admin.

Yes it can be done but there may be implications that you need to consider and they should be able to cover for you.


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## Attie3 (15 Jan 2020)

I have not been enrolled yet but my wife is pregnant with our first. I did some calculations but the timing would be a little tight. 

It would be best if I can take pata during my time on PAT I'm wondering, would a regf member would be eligible to take pata leave during basic bmoq?

I would love to continue my process as a regf member but if not, I would be considering moving my application to pres.

Thanks for all your help.


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## garb811 (15 Jan 2020)

Attie3 said:
			
		

> I have not been enrolled yet but my wife is pregnant with our first. I did some calculations but the timing would be a little tight.
> 
> It would be best if I can take pata during my time on PAT I'm wondering, would a regf member would be eligible to take pata leave during basic bmoq?
> 
> ...


A Commanding Officer has the ability to defer the start date of parental leave if there are imperative military requirements.  In accordance with the Leave Policy Manual, the definition of imperative military requirements includes attending a career course, which BMOQ is.  So, no, you won't be pulled off of BMOQ to let you take PATA.

There is scope to delay the start of the start date of the PATA though, so if your wife gives birth while you are on BMOQ, it would be possible to take it while you were awaiting your next phase of training, if there was sufficient time.


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## Lumber (20 May 2020)

Short: Does anyone know if the CO of a unit you are ATP'd to can approve PATA?

Long: 
I was posted to unit A. 
While posted to unit A, I submitted paperwork in early March requesting 5 weeks of PATA leave beginning in late July.
COVID-19 happened, and all non-critical admin work at unit A basically stopped. Since my PATA request was for a period of time not beginning for 4-5 months, it didn't really get looked at (and to be fair, I didn't really push for it, because I didn't think it was a priority either). 
Fast forward a couple weeks to early April, COVID-19 caused all work for me at unit A to end, so they ATP'd be to unit B instead. 
While ATP'd to unit B, I was officially posted to unit C, with a COS date now in the past. 
However, unit C is currently on overseas deployment, and I won't be joining them until they get back. Thus I continue to work ATP'd to unit B.
I'm trying to get unit A to approve my PATA paperwork, because it would be a real headache to try and get unit C to do it.
If unit A says "no, you are not a member of our unit anymore, therefore not our problem", is there any chance unit B can approve it, since trying to get a CO/XO who don't know me to approve a PATA request while they are on overseas deployment seems like a real challenge.


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## kev994 (20 May 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Short: Does anyone know if the CO of a unit you are ATP'd to can approve PATA?
> 
> Long:
> I was posted to unit A.
> ...


I would start with your COC at unit B, indicate that it was submitted at A and here is the previously submitted paperwork. I suspect you will need to resubmit, B and C should be talking to each other.


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## dapaterson (20 May 2020)

There's usually a dedicated MATA/PATA clerk at the URS supporting your unit - they may be able to assist as well.


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