# 3b released member looking at homelessness



## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

Ok, the title may be a bit dramatic but it isn't far off.

I was just released 3b last week. At the same time we are in the middle of trying to purchase a house at our 'retirement' destination. My wife has secured a job in the public service(starting in Sep) and my son is attending university with plans to live at home. I am going to school and intend to re-enter the work force. The new house is modestly priced and we have 47% down payment available. We have no debt, good credit and spare cash. Our intention was to port our mortgage as we have a great rate locked in for another 4 years.

The mortgage was going to be approved if I could provide proof, in a dollar amount, of what my income will be under pension/sissip/VAC.  I assumed VAC would be able to do this as they top up to 90% of your pre-release gross pay as the last step in the process (after pension and sissip). I have an official letter from the the military stating my pre-release salary and a letter from VAC approving me for Earnigs Loss Benefit (the 90% topup). I figured some simple math (pre-release salary x 0.90) would provide a number that VAC could give to my mortgage company. 

But that isn't the case. 

They will only state that I am entitled ELB and provide the ELB documentation found online. No dollar amount will be provided and they will not budge on this until my pension and sisip income is established. This is months down the road. Incidentally, my 90% is north of $75,000.

So now my family is two weeks from moving out of our current home, which is sold, and our deal on the new house will fall apart today due to financing. We spent the day yesterday trying to secure a 'decent’ rental option with no luck, mostly due to the short timeframe. 

VAC told me not to worry as they have ways to get vets into emergency shelter if required. Awesome. That makes everything better.

I am absolutely dumbfounded that my family and I are in this position. This is not how I envisioned my first weeks/months as a civilian after 21 years in the CF.

Anyone have any ideas?


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## Rifleman62 (13 Jul 2018)

It's Friday morning, so you got to move fast as you are well aware. Do a Briefing Note, detailing the reason for your release, the current problem, steps you have taken, who at VAC you have spoken with. A BN so you have all the facts at hand and can email it at the conclusion of the phone calls you will be making today.

1. Phone the Minister's office *NOW* and demand to speak to the COS. 613.992.0927  SEAMUS.OREGAN@PARL.GC.CA

*Stress the urgency to anyone you speak with, and state you and your family will be homeless shortly (a touchy point with the gov't).* Keep phoning until you do make contact. 

2.Concurrently, telephone your MP, and keep phoning him/her until you personally speak to him.  

3. Depending on your immediate results at 1/2, contact Gloria Galloway of the Globe and Mail. ggalloway@globeandmail.com  Try phoning her: 1-416-585-5000

She has written several stores on VAC/Vets.


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## Remius (13 Jul 2018)

It might help if people knew what city/destination you were heading to.  Maybe some options some people could help you with there.


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## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

I never considered this and will give it a try. At this point, there is no getting around the mortgage deal collapsing but if it helps anyone avoid this pitfall in the future then Im all for it. Thank for the feedback.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> It's Friday morning, so you got to move fast as you are well aware. Do a Briefing Note, detailing the reason for your release, the current problem, steps you have taken, who at VAC you have spoken with. A BN so you have all the facts at hand and can email it at the conclusion of the phone calls you will be making today.
> 
> 1. Phone the Minister's office *NOW* and demand to speak to the COS. 613.992.0927  SEAMUS.OREGAN@PARL.GC.CA
> 
> ...


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## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> It might help if people knew what city/destination you were heading to.  Maybe some options some people could help you with there.



We are moving to Gatineau. Ideally, we would like to find a short-term rental as we would like to get into a mortgage as soon as possible once someone will confirm my income. We also have two dogs. I know beggars can't be choosers but my wife will be destroyed if we have to get rid of them.


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## pbi (13 Jul 2018)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> It's Friday morning, so you got to move fast as you are well aware. Do a Briefing Note, detailing the reason for your release, the current problem, steps you have taken, who at VAC you have spoken with. A BN so you have all the facts at hand and can email it at the conclusion of the phone calls you will be making today.
> 
> 1. Phone the Minister's office *NOW* and demand to speak to the COS. 613.992.0927  SEAMUS.OREGAN@PARL.GC.CA
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with Rifleman here. Pressure on the political system, with the potential for embarrassment over yet another  VAC-related issue, is the one possible  COA. Sad, but true. I wonder though what sort of bank or lending institution you are dealing with that has so little understanding of the military pension system that they would turn down an apparently very suitable client like you. Good luck.


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## Remius (13 Jul 2018)

Have you thought about going to a mortgage broker?

A lot of times they can find a lender that isn't as constrained as the big banks and you generally get a better a rate. 

Ottawa/Gatineau has a supply issue and is a complete sellers market right now.


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## Rifleman62 (13 Jul 2018)

> So now my family is two weeks from moving out of our current home, which is sold, and our deal on the new house will fall apart today due to financing.



Ask the Minister's office to phone your bank and or the Head Office of your bank with the info. That should not be difficult to do, although the bank HO will not have any of the info on your case. Most banks it appears have regional authority for mortgages i.e. here,  a local bank in Kelowna, sends the mtge app to Edmonton for approval. I spent 6 weeks two years ago dicking around with the TD, with whom I had 11 mtges over 30 years. That means frig all to them. You are just a number.

A Mortgage Broker is an excellent idea. Mine took five working days for approval from Scotia Bank thus was in a position to tell the TD when they finally approved my app, to go screw themselves.

You can also try: https://www.mortgageforces.ca/ which is a independent Mortgage Broker.


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## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Have you thought about going to a mortgage broker?
> 
> A lot of times they can find a lender that isn't as constrained as the big banks and you generally get a better a rate.
> 
> Ottawa/Gatineau has a supply issue and is a complete sellers market right now.



I contacted a broker last night after my current lender informed me(last minute) that  I would be denied without a confirmation of dollar amount so we will see where that goes through it will be too late for this house. We felt like we had hit the jackpot with this house. It sure is a seller's market. 3 years old, in the location we wanted and a great price. To say we are disapointed is an understatement.


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## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Ask the Minister's office to phone your bank and or the Head Office of your bank with the info. That should not be difficult to do, although the bank HO will not have any of the info on your case. Most banks it appears have regional authority for mortgages i.e. here,  a local bank in Kelowna, sends the mtge app to Edmonton for approval. I spent 6 weeks two years ago dicking around with the TD, with whom I had 11 mtges over 30 years. That means frig all to them. You are just a number.
> 
> A Mortgage Broker is an excellent idea. Mine took five working days for approval from Scotia Bank thus was in a position to tell the TD when they finally approved my app, to go screw themselves.
> 
> You can also try: https://www.mortgageforces.ca/ which is a independent Mortgage Broker.



Thanks for the advise and the info. I am speaking to a broker today.


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## Hwyhtac (13 Jul 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> I agree 100% with Rifleman here. Pressure on the political system, with the potential for embarrassment over yet another  VAC-related issue, is the one possible  COA. Sad, but true. I wonder though what sort of bank or lending institution you are dealing with that has so little understanding of the military pension system that they would turn down an apparently very suitable client like you. Good luck.



I will be taking Riflemans advise and making a call this morning. I doubt I would actually go through with going public though. I was point on a high profile incident with the military that made international news a few years ago(in a good way  ;D). I am sure a reporter would jump on the chance to use that incident to push a story about my current situation. The problem is that I want to get into the workforce, ideally in the Public Service...I am not sure how going public would be perceived by potential employers.


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## TCM621 (13 Jul 2018)

Please keep us informed, I hope this works out for you.


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## Hwyhtac (16 Jul 2018)

Just a quick update. After some convincing from VAC to the mortgage company, my mortgage has been conditionally approved but_ I still need to prove income_ by the closing date, which I am still unable to do, due to the way the system is set up and the expected timeline to calculate everything. This means that we could find out we have no home the day prior to moving in. Our possessions will be on a moving truck with nowhere to go and we will be in serious trouble at that point.

Here is how it works for those who don't know.

When you release medically, your income for the next two years is based on 90% of your pre-release salary and it comes from 3 sources. Your pension, SISIP which tops you up to 75% of your pre-release salary and VAC which tops you up the last 15%.  Your pension is calculated first, then that info is sent to SISIP for their calculations, then that is sent to VAC for the final amounts. Each component will ONLY confirm their portion of the total and ONLY once the component before them has been completed; a process that obviously takes time. Everyone in this process knows and agrees that I am entitled to 90% of my pre-release salary but no one in a position that matters is able to put pen to paper, do some simple math and confirm my total income.

I find this absolutely ludicrous.


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## mariomike (16 Jul 2018)

For reference to the discussion,

Medical Release ( merged )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/98631.100.html
5 pages.


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## TCM621 (16 Jul 2018)

My neighbour is getting medically released and is having issues regarding buying a home upon release. It is an issue that needs to be resolved. Make sure you talk to the ombudsman about this, regardless of whether it works out or not. I think this is an area they need to investigate. I would talk to both the CAF and Veterans ombudsman.


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## Hwyhtac (16 Jul 2018)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> My neighbour is getting medically released and is having issues regarding buying a home upon release. It is an issue that needs to be resolved. Make sure you talk to the ombudsman about this, regardless of whether it works out or not. I think this is an area they need to investigate. I would talk to both the CAF and Veterans ombudsman.



Many med released members are able to secure a mortgage before they get out by 'leaving out' the portion that they are being released during their application. Unfortunately, having a home trumps honesty and I wish I'd done the same. I was thought I was being financially smart by keeping our low rate. Others are able to secure mortgages once the three income sources are flowing by using a mortgage broker to find an institution that will accept the 'disability' income sources. And there are quite a few that do. It is the in-between time that seems to be the problem. Had I known I wouldn't be able to prove income I would have applied for a new loan, higher rate be damned, prior to release instead of trying to port. Incidentally, porting a mortgage can only be approved once an offer is made on a new home, there is no pre-approval...at least at my institution.

Anyways, is it possible for your neighbor to go to a mortgage broker while he is 'still employed' and secure a mortgage?


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## Staff Weenie (16 Jul 2018)

Hwyhtac, there's a chance my office can help. I've sent you a PM with the details we need.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Jul 2018)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> Hwyhtac, there's a chance my office can help. I've sent you a PM with the details we need.



Go Staff Weenie!!!!!  

(Cue: cheering from the cheap seats)

How many others are in this position, I wonder? Sounds like a big policy loophole of some kind.


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## Hwyhtac (16 Jul 2018)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> Hwyhtac, there's a chance my office can help. I've sent you a PM with the details we need.



I appreciate it. I have done all I can at this point and to be honest, my mortgage company does share some of the blame in the way they have dealt with this. After a whirlwind day, the mortgage is going to be a solid yes or no in just over an hour. There will be no option to prove income by the closing date. Life will get interesting real fast if it's a no.

This is a significant issue that will cost me thousands(rental lease, mortgage fees, paying for a move when we eventually can prove income) and we may be in serious trouble with regards to finding a rental this late in the game. 

That said, I would very much like to speak to you, or at length about this. Either way it is too late for me but others should be warned about the potential this has to wreak havoc on their life. This should at minimum be brought up during the release process/SCAN seminars etc but I would hope an actual solution could be found.

I will PM you my details. Right now imoff to go chew my nails.


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## Hwyhtac (17 Jul 2018)

Well the worst case scenario has happened and we lost the house....we still don't have a solid yes or no from the financial institution and our deadline was yesterday at 4. We are trying one last hail mary but the sellers have lost their patience and I don't blame them.

So as of now, we have a moving truck showing up in 15 days with nowhere to send it. We have been unable to secure *decent* rental housing so far with room for the three of us plus our dogs. We also do not want to be stuck in a lease overpaying for someone else's mortgage. I know this may sound like we are being picky given our situation but at the same time, there is no reason my family should even be in this situation in the first place...especially given our finances.

We are starting a new application with a mortgage broker today but we will still be facing the income verification problem as well as the temporary homelessness 'issue' until a new possession date at a new house can be established. We also stand to lose some BGRS relocation benefits as now we will be 'moving' twice.

I really appreciate everyone who reached out. The military, VAC, and SISIP all did what they could but unfortunately, nobody has the authority to state what my _total income_ is at this point in the 3b release process.

If anyone has a line on some sweet bridges in the NCR for a family of 3 let me know. Preferably waterfront.


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## brihard (17 Jul 2018)

This is effing unconscionable. Have you reached out to your MP yet, or reconsidered going to the media? This is some shameful stuff.


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## Hwyhtac (17 Jul 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> This is effing unconscionable. Have you reached out to your MP yet, or reconsidered going to the media? This is some shameful stuff.



I have not and to be honest, I am not sure that is the correct route at this point. I seem to have fallen into the 'swiss cheese model' of 3b releasing\relocating and I am wondering if this has ever been encountered before. If it hasn't I think it would be unfair to go public as in my opinion, the 3b release benefits are pretty outstanding overall. I would like to see the policy dealt with now that this has been identified. Immediately. If this doesn't occur, or if has already been identified and not dealt with, then I would think media involvement would be valid. Two different representatives from the military have touched base with me through army.ca so we will see what they have to say once I hear from them.

I won't be dropping this and I will be informing my MP, the ombudsman and the VAC ombudsmen to hopefully push change. I would not want to see anyone else go through this.

Media is an absolute last resort.


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## hambley92 (17 Jul 2018)

I suggest contacting VETS Canada (www.vetscanada.org)


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## Pusser (18 Jul 2018)

To be honest, I think most of the blame for this lies on an intransigent lending institution.  That's not to say that VAC/DND couldn't handle this better, but whatever institution you're dealing with is being stupid.  For one thing, they're losing a customer.  Have you demanded to speak to higher authorities within the institution?  Sometimes the mortgage officer's hands are tied, but the branch or regional managers may have more leeway to be sensible.

Have you talked to the Bank of Montreal?  They currently have a military package that is really good (you essentially get employee rates on mortgages and no-fee bank accounts).  I found dealing with my branch at Hunt Club and Bank here in Ottawa really easy and their mortgage officer (Joseph Khouri) really stepped up to make the transition easy.  I had been with Scotiabank for many mortgages over 25 years and they couldn't even come close to what BMO ended up giving me.  In fact, I was really disappointed with the lack of respect I was shown.  I'm a real BMO fan now!


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## Hwyhtac (18 Jul 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> To be honest, I think most of the blame for this lies on an intransigent lending institution.  That's not to say that VAC/DND couldn't handle this better, but whatever institution you're dealing with is being stupid.  For one thing, they're losing a customer.  Have you demanded to speak to higher authorities within the institution?  Sometimes the mortgage officer's hands are tied, but the branch or regional managers may have more leeway to be sensible.
> 
> Have you talked to the Bank of Montreal?  They currently have a military package that is really good (you essentially get employee rates on mortgages and no-fee bank accounts).  I found dealing with my branch at Hunt Club and Bank here in Ottawa really easy and their mortgage officer (Joseph Khouri) really stepped up to make the transition easy.  I had been with Scotiabank for many mortgages over 25 years and they couldn't even come close to what BMO ended up giving me.  In fact, I was really disappointed with the lack of respect I was shown.  I'm a real BMO fan now!



I agree 100% with our comments on the mortgage institution.  We have not spoken with any other banks as we were focusing on porting our mortgage to keep the same rate and terms we currently have. We have reached out to a broker in case the port falls through but were restricted by time...which incidentally we may have more of as of last night. There have been some developments with regards to our hail mary and a glimmer of hope remains.

Also, I will be following up later today with a post that will clear the air with regards to VAC, SISIP, JPSU and the release section and the support that they have given.  It has been above and beyond what I had hoped for and needs to be commended.


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## Pusser (18 Jul 2018)

I hope it works out for you.


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## Hwyhtac (25 Jul 2018)

Just thought I would give a quick update. Our mortgage was approved last night thanks to the individuals and organizations below. I have learned a lot through this process and now realize that the organizations that assist releasing members are truly there to help. Yes, there may be loopholes but the people behind the scenes are working tirelessly to fix any issues and ease the transition of all military members. I would like to publicly thank all who were involved in working on my file. I touch on all of their actions below if you have time for a read.



*JPSU/SISIP/DPSP* – I was contacted by Staff Weenie here on army.ca WRT to my situation and we spoke the phone shortly thereafter. I won’t get into exactly what occurred, but I need to public thank him, his team, SISIP, and the DPSC (Pensions) here on army.ca for the urgent and collective work they did on my file that literally helped us avoid homelessness. I am humbled by the care and speed with which they addressed my family’s issue and it has given me a new outlook on organizations that are often ostracized.

Staff Weenie and his staff did a bit of digging after we spoke about my mortgage issue. I am posting the following from our email conversation (with his permission) as I think it demonstrates that there are people working behind the scenes to rectify problems once they are identified. 



> "We’re also finding that this issue is bigger than we thought. My supervisor talked to his mortgage broker, who noted that he deals with a very similar situation about 3-4 times per year. That probably means that across Canada, this has to be happening at least a hundred times per year. We’re now starting to look at how we can find a fix to prevent this from ever happening to another member.”



These organizations often have a thankless job, however, I can tell you with certainty that they are dedicated people who are working hard and they truly do care about releasing members.


*VAC* – The manager of my local Veterans Affairs Office went above and beyond to help us out. She wrote letters, spoke to our mortgage institution multiple times and was sympathetic to my rants of homelessness when I’m sure she had a pile of other things to get done. I can’t name her as I have not asked her permission to do so, but her actions played a very big role in us getting our mortgage approved. I have seen VAC often be villainized and think it’s important to say that my experience was quite the opposite. Give them a chance. They are there to help.


*Jean-Yves Plouff of Remax in Gatineau *– There are realtors, and then there is this guy. He has been fantastic throughout the whole process from his honesty on our HHT to the uncertainty of financing approval. He has gotten us multiple extensions with some very hesitant sellers that allowed us the time needed to prove income through the work of others. He has sacrificed his personal time and worked late into the night on multiple occasions to make things work for us. You won’t go wrong with Jean if you are moving to the Gatineau area. This guy is getting a BBQ on us once we arrive.  https://www.remax-quebec.com/en/courtiers-immobiliers/jean-yves.plouffe/index.rmx


*Susan Woolsey - Mortgage Agent Ottawa* – Susan is a Mortgage broker that I contacted in Ottawa with the intent of starting a second application as our financial institution was being a bit difficult. Susan is very well versed in military moves and is educated on the release process(both medical and normal). This made it exceptionally easy to discuss all aspects of our situation from SISIP/VAC/Pension income streams to BGRS regulations. Susan took the time to advise me on how to proceed and even checked in on the progress of my file at our mortgage company. We did not end up needing her services as our institution finally granted us a mortgage. I cannot say enough about her character and how much I wished I had contacted her months ago.  I can’t recommend her enough for military members. Give her a call if you are looking for a mortgage. http://susanwoolsey.ca/


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## Rifleman62 (25 Jul 2018)

Very glad the situation was resolved successfully.


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## OldTanker (25 Jul 2018)

Very happy it worked out for you and thank you for taking the time to acknowledge those who helped you.


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## brihard (25 Jul 2018)

Class act, dude, really good of you to follow up like this.

I'm not the least bit surprised that once Staff Weenie got involved, there was a noticeable turn for the better. He's one of the good ones.


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## Infanteer (25 Jul 2018)

Great post - I've followed this since you started it and I'm glad things worked out for you.  Shows the value of social/professional networking and helps highlight all the good people who can help if they know there is a problem.


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## daftandbarmy (26 Jul 2018)

Great news!

And thanks to Mr. B et al for continuing to make this a forum where we  can help each other out as required _(as well as go on and on endlessly about far more trivial stuff)_


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## dunlop303 (22 Sep 2018)

I was in the exact same boat, released back in 09, was buying a house half in cash with a small 50k earnings loss benefit, NOPE didnt fly as income, I ended up getting a BS job for 90 days just to check the box of income, then quit once the mortgage was finalized.

Long story short, count on these "Kind people" for nothing if its important or urgent.





			
				Hwyhtac said:
			
		

> Ok, the title may be a bit dramatic but it isn't far off.
> 
> I was just released 3b last week. At the same time we are in the middle of trying to purchase a house at our 'retirement' destination. My wife has secured a job in the public service(starting in Sep) and my son is attending university with plans to live at home. I am going to school and intend to re-enter the work force. The new house is modestly priced and we have 47% down payment available. We have no debt, good credit and spare cash. Our intention was to port our mortgage as we have a great rate locked in for another 4 years.
> 
> ...


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