# Wearing of Medals -- Another Type of Question



## Bill Smy (10 Aug 2005)

It seems to have been an established practice in the United Kingdom after the First World War for widows to wear their husband's medals on the right breast with the medals mounted in reverse order.

A photograph of a woman wearing a WW1 VC group and selling poppies during WW2 appears in the October 2003 issue of the Journal of The Victoria Cross Society.

Elsie Frew, widow of Colonel Graham Thomson Lyall, VC, had his medals mounted in reverse order after the Second World War and wore them in this fashion to various militiary and remembrance activities,

Has anyone come across other instances where this took place?

 :warstory: Please:-- I don't want to re-open the legality issue.


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Aug 2005)

Someone, many decades back, told my mother that was appropriate for war-widows, _per se_, not widows of veterans.  She thought it was a bit much, I think.  (Not the sort of thing we spent an awful lot of time discussing.)  She habitually wore a miniature cap badge and her silver cross, and that was about all by way of jewelry and _buttons and bows_ â â€œ even with evening dress for the most formal functions.

I have never seen it, in either the UK or Canada, but it's not something I looked for either.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (10 Aug 2005)

cap badges i can see as piece a woman would wear.  there was time when a guy  would give a  girl a copy of his cap badge much like a guy  would give that special girl his class ring to wear.

my grandfather gave his wife a copy o his cap badge with the letter removed and replaced with small diamonds. he was Royal Canadian Ordance Corp.
I have see other cap badges made into jewellery for mothers. My greatgrandmother who lost one of her sons  was given Armoured Corp collardogs made into a pin for her to wear to remember her son. 

as for wearing the medals i think that  is just wrong.  No one but the person awarded the medals has the right to wear them. that  is just plain wrong. 

I come from a long line of war vetrans, and peace time officers, after they have died the medals have always been put away and never worn again. 

That  would be like wearing their rank and medals when I was in the army. I can see it now,  a private wearing his grandfathers Sqn Leader  rank and decorations.  Just not done.


----------



## combat_medic (11 Aug 2005)

A while back, one could see the relatives of a veteran wear the relatives' medals on the right hand (opposite) side. It was never expressely forbidden, but was in practice. Now, there are regulations that prohibit the wearing of any medals other than your own. However, these regulations only apply to CF members. Personally, I don't like seeing people wear medals they didn't earn, but to each their own. 

As for the cap brass, I think you're referring to the "Sweetheart Pin" - often a miniaturized version of the soldier's cap brass on a more ornate display which was given to a girlfriend or wife so that they could show they had a soldier in that regiment. There are some excellent examples of these here:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Royal-Army-Ordnance-Corps-Sterling-Sweetheart-Pin_W0QQitemZ6549927599QQcategoryZ4074QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Tank-Corps-Enamel-Sweetheart-Pin_W0QQitemZ6549927943QQcategoryZ4074QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.ca/RASC-Enameled-Sweetheart-Pin_W0QQitemZ6522244782QQcategoryZ4074QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Springroll (11 Aug 2005)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> A while back, one could see the relatives of a veteran wear the relatives' medals on the right hand (opposite) side. It was never expressely forbidden, but was in practice. Now, there are regulations that prohibit the wearing of any medals other than your own. However, these regulations only apply to CF members. Personally, I don't like seeing people wear medals they didn't earn, but to each their own.



Just because I like to eat crow, here is the link and answer from veteran's affairs on the wearing of someone else's war medals:

Q)Can I wear my father's (brother's, relatives') medals? 
A)Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=help/generalfaq#apply


----------



## Roy Harding (11 Aug 2005)

combat_medic said:
			
		

> A while back, one could see the relatives of a veteran wear the relatives' medals on the right hand (opposite) side. It was never expressely forbidden, but was in practice. Now, there are regulations that prohibit the wearing of any medals other than your own. However, these regulations only apply to CF members. Personally, I don't like seeing people wear medals they didn't earn, but to each their own.



combat_medic:  actually, you're wrong regarding the regulations regarding wearing other's medals.  There's a fairly lengthy (and entertaining) thread on the subject here:  

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33376.0.html


----------



## aesop081 (11 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Just because I like to eat crow, here is the link and answer from veteran's affairs on the wearing of someone else's war medals:
> 
> Q)Can I wear my father's (brother's, relatives') medals?
> A)Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.
> ...



Are you going to seek legal advice on that one ?  :


----------



## Springroll (11 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Are you going to seek legal advice on that one ?   :



No. That answer came from Veteran's Affairs, the very people who give out the medals.

Like I said, I will eat crow quietly with a smile on my face ;D


----------



## aesop081 (11 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> No. That answer came from Veteran's Affairs, the very people who give out the medals.
> 
> Like I said, I will eat crow quietly with a smile on my face ;D



Glad to hear it.  I would hate to see the staff at CFSME have to book an extra bed for your lawyer on your QL3  ;D

Have a good one


----------



## Springroll (11 Aug 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Glad to hear it.   I would hate to see the staff at CFSME have to book an extra bed for your lawyer on your QL3   ;D
> 
> Have a good one



I don't have a lawyer, but I did contact my late grandfathers lawyer who told me to check out the VA website(never thought about that).
Now I am satisfied with the answer, have admitted I was wrong, and would love for the "comments" and such to stop now.

Have a good one, too


----------



## Eowyn (11 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Just because I like to eat crow, here is the link and answer from veteran's affairs on the wearing of someone else's war medals:
> 
> Q)Can I wear my father's (brother's, relatives') medals?
> A)Medals may only be worn by the veteran. It is a criminal offense to wear military medals that someone else has earned.
> ...



I find it interesting that you will accept the answer from the VA's or DHH website when you find it, but not when it was pointed out to you when you originally asked the question.   Gunnar98 provided that link and quote within the first page of discussion.



> Quote from Gunner98
> 
> DHH Website FAQs: http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=honawa&FaqID=25#answer
> 
> ...



Modified to add Gunner98's quote.


----------



## Gunner (11 Aug 2005)

> I find it interesting that you will accept the answer from the VA's or DHH website when you find it, but not when it was pointed out to you when you originally asked the question.  Gunnar98 provided that link and quote within the first page of discussion.



Eowyn, 

Springroll has admitted a mistake, fessed up and is "man" enough to accept her lumps.  We have all said things/did things that we regret later and there is no reason to keep bringing it up as it has been dealt with.  I'm sure Springroll has apologized to Gunner98 for doubting his advice.  Lets move on.

Cheers


----------



## Springroll (11 Aug 2005)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that you will accept the answer from the VA's or DHH website when you find it, but not when it was pointed out to you when you originally asked the question.   Gunnar98 provided that link and quote within the first page of discussion.



Gunnar98 provided a link to a section of the Criminal Code of Canada. I was debating the code based on the way it was worded, specifically the whole "lawful permission" bit.

According to Veteran's Affairs, the people who issue the medals, there are no exceptions to the rule, whereas the code is worded to sound like you can if you have been given permission too. Now that I know that there are *no* exceptions to the rule, I am satisfied.


----------



## Bill Smy (11 Aug 2005)

Hey, Guys. I specifically asked that we not re-open the legal arguments.   :gunner: :gunner: :gunner: :gunner:

What I wanted was to here of instances where widows wore the medals in reverse order on the right breast. Let's try to keep this discussionon track.


----------



## Springroll (11 Aug 2005)

My bad, it was not Gunnar98, it was Inch.


----------



## Acorn (12 Aug 2005)

Veterans Affairs doesn't issue the medals. 

Springroll, you exibited a monumental lack of judgement in that other thread. Hopefully your recent experience has improved that judgement before you go on training.


----------



## Springroll (12 Aug 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Veterans Affairs doesn't issue the medals.



Taken form my previous link:

_Can I purchase another set of medals for my children/grandchildren even if a set is already in existence? _ 
*Veterans Affairs Canada issues only one set of medals.* 
If additional sets are required you may wish to contact a military outfitter and purchase miniature commemorative medals.


----------



## kincanucks (12 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> No. That answer came from Veteran's Affairs, the very people who give out the medals.
> 
> Like I said, I will eat crow quietly with a smile on my face ;D



I thought you only eat candy necklaces? ;D


----------



## Springroll (12 Aug 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> I thought you only eat candy necklaces? ;D



Well that too... ;D

Would you like one??


----------



## Roy Harding (12 Aug 2005)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> What I wanted was to here of instances where widows wore the medals in reverse order on the right breast. Let's try to keep this discussionon track.



Bill;

Although I believe the law is pretty clear, I can't imagine a circumstance where that law would actually be invoked in the case of a widow.  

I don't know, because I wasn't there (contrary to popular opinion), but I imagine something like that may have been the practice, and may still BE the practice with some widows.

For what it's worth.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Aug 2005)

I had to sort through my late mother's effects not all that many years ago.

I recall that my father's medals came with a 'note' from King George VI as did her silver cross, but it was accompanied by a personal note from the Earl of Athlone who had been GG and something of a friend, at least something a bit beyond acquaintance (although my mother despised Princess Alice).  (Of course the King's 'notes' were _managed_ in Canada by some functionary but that's beside the point.)

I am quite certain that my mother would have done whatever she jolly well pleased with those medals and she would have shredded any _milquetoast_ little snivel servant from DVA (up to and including the Deputy Minister) who might have dared to suggest she did not have that absolute right.  The medals passed from the King to her, and were no business of the Government of Canada, which always was, in her mind, nothing but a _pimple on the prick of progress_.


----------



## Acorn (12 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Taken form my previous link:
> 
> _Can I purchase another set of medals for my children/grandchildren even if a set is already in existence? _
> *Veterans Affairs Canada issues only one set of medals.*
> If additional sets are required you may wish to contact a military outfitter and purchase miniature commemorative medals.



Well, you stated:


> That answer came from Veteran's Affairs, the very people who give out the medals.



Which made me think you believe that VA issues all medals. That's not true - mine were not issued by VA. 

VA is responsible to issue medals to those who, for whatever reason, didn't get issued them while serving or they issue replacement medals *only to the former service member entitled to wear them* if they are lost or stolen, usually at the expense of the individual.

Acorn


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

I agree with Acorn,

This doesn't look like the VA issuing my medal...

Medals Parade

dileas

tess


----------



## Slim (13 Aug 2005)

Speaking of medals...

I have spent 15 years in the CF and, am told, I am now due for a CD.

What, if any, are the chances that the CF will award me this medal.

I know it doesn't sound like a big deal but it would be nice to have at least *ONE* to pass to the kids (if there ever are any).

Slim


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Speaking of medals...
> 
> I have spent 15 years in the CF and, am told, I am now due for a CD.
> 
> ...



Slim:

Your profile indicates that you are retired - if that is the case, go here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/contacts_e.asp?contact=2#gen

If you are still serving in some capacity, see your Orderly Room.

As to whether you ever produce heirs; - that is beyond the scope of the CF, DND, DHH, or The Legion!!!


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I agree with Acorn,
> 
> This doesn't look like the VA issuing my medal...
> 
> ...



Obviously you did not read the link I posted. 
Do you know what medals VA issues?? 
Go to the VA website and you will see one HUGE list of them.
They are also not usually the ones giving them to you...that is left to your command, or your higher ups.


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

ladies and gents,

the shot you just heard was in the foot...

Springroll stop while you are a head, please please please.

dileas

tes


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Obviously you did not read the link I posted.
> Do you know what medals VA issues??
> Go to the VA website and you will see one HUGE list of them.
> They are also not usually the ones giving them to you...that is left to your command, or your higher ups.



Springroll:

VA does NOT "issue" or "authorize" medals.  They "administer" medal distribution on behalf of Veterans - in accordance with instructions, orders, and policies promulgated by the "issuing" authorities.

I can't believe I'm posting this - I'll no doubt get some argument in return.

To quote someone else on another thread "This is gonna suck.  Follow me"


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Obviously you did not read the link I posted.
> Do you know what medals VA issues??
> Go to the VA website and you will see one HUGE list of them.
> They are also not usually the ones giving them to you...that is left to your command, or your higher ups.



*Nonsense! Arrant nonsense!*

Medals, decorations and awards are conferred or awarded by the sovereign.   The sovereign's servants, her admirals and generals and commissioners (of the RCMP) etc, manage the _issuing_. 

Veterans Affairs is a load of pencil necked, milquetoast, overpaid bureaucrats who package up and distribute _replacement_ medals and bits of ribbons.   They are glorified shop clerks.


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> *Nonsense! Arrant nonsense!*
> 
> Medals, decorations and awards are conferred or awarded by the sovereign.  The sovereign's servants, her admirals and generals and commissioners (of the RCMP) etc, manage the _issuing_.
> 
> Veterans Affairs is a load of pencil necked, milquetoast, overpaid bureaucrats who package up and distribute _replacement_ medals and bits of ribbons.  They are glorified shop clerks.



Springroll:

Don't go there.  

"Thar be dragons".  (AND - he's absolutely correct)

Just a word to the wise - your choice, of course, whether you find that particular group includes you.


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding and Edward Campbell,

Cheers, I think , by her silence, we have finally drilled it into our resident "VA expert" the error of her ways...

dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Roy Harding and Edward Campbell,
> 
> Cheers, I think , by her silence, we have finally drilled it into our resident "VA expert" the error of her ways...
> 
> ...



Actually, I was spending time with my family, that is why I have not posted until now.
I should have made myself more clear when I said they issue medals. 
They do not issue all medals, but there is quite an extensive list that they are responsible for.

*Taken from the VA site:*
Q: How do I apply for and/or replace military medals and decorations? 
A: Information on the military medals and decorations that Veterans Affairs Canada are responsible for and a list of qualifying areas of service for Regular Forces is by writing to Honours and Awards, Veterans Affairs Canada, 66 Slater Street, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0P4 

Here was another snippet taken from the VA website:
Honours and Awards
VAC provides first issue or replacement medals, free of charge, to qualified veterans or their spouses within nine weeks of the date we received an application. The number of replacements is limited to four per veteran. 
If the veteran has passed away, the immediate next-of-kin may qualify to receive the first issue at no charge, or replacements at cost, within 15 weeks of the date we received an application

Sorry that I had not made myself more clear.


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> Actually, I was spending time with my family, that is why I have not posted until now.
> I should have made myself more clear when I said they issue medals.
> They do not issue all medals, but there is quite an extensive list that they are responsible for.
> 
> ...



GAWDAMMIT Springroll - I just lost a bet on you.


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> GAWDAMMIT Springroll - I just lost a bet on you.



Well fill me in on it?


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

> Here was another snippet taken from the VA website:
> Honours and Awards
> VAC provides first issue or replacement medals, free of charge, to qualified veterans or their spouses within nine weeks of the date we received an application. The number of replacements is limited to four per veteran.
> If the veteran has passed away, the immediate next-of-kin may qualify to receive the first issue at no charge, or replacements at cost, within 15 weeks of the date we received an application
> ...



Well, Don't be sorry for being more clear, be sorry for questioning those of us that try to correct the errors of your ways...

Once again you try to bang the hand of those of us that want to help, then apologize with a lame excuse as to why you made your snide comment...

please just learn from us, that is all I ask just learn.....

dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> GAWDAMMIT Springroll - I just lost a bet on you.



That's OK, Roy, I just won a wee dram of _Oban_ (bet with myself).  I have strong views on human nature. most of them not fit for a _family_ web site.


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Well, Don't be sorry for being more clear, be sorry for questioning those of us that try to correct the errors of your ways...
> 
> Once again you try to bang the hand of those of us that want to help, then apologize with a lame excuse as to why you made your snide comment...
> 
> ...



Excuse me, but when you highlight something in my post, make sure you do not forget the entire part like this "*VAC provides first issue or replacement medals*, not just the part that fits your argument.

To be quite honest, am not going to respond to the remainder of your post, since it is alot of BS.

Good Day


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> That's OK, Roy, I just won a wee dram of _Oban_ (bet with myself).  I have strong views on human nature. most of them not fit for a _family_ web site.



Truth be known, my bet was only with myself as well - I have similar (I suspect) strong views on human nature - I'm just not _QUITE_ experienced enough to not doubt my own convictions and experience - but I'm rapidly getting there.


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

I beg your pardon?

my post is "BS"

that's it, get the hell out of here.   The likes of you are not needed here.

that's being polite.

dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

*Program Records*

Veterans Affairs Canada shares program records registered in this section with the Veterans Review and Appeal Board

Honours and Awards
Description: Information on the issue and replacement of First and Second World Wars and Korea campaign stars, medals, clasps, service buttons and Silver Memorial Crosses. 

Topics: General; policy; campaign stars and medals; non-Canadian awards and certificates; Queen's Scarf of Honour; correspondence regarding books on war medals and decorations of Canada; Victoria Cross - general; news clippings; statistics and statements; Korea Service Badge; Canadian Volunteer Service Medal; Hong Kong Bar; Dieppe Bar; Corps of Canadian Firefighters; Fenian Raids and Northwest Rebellion; Memorial Bar; Memorial Cross - general; Mercer Case; Naval Memorial Crosses; South Africa Medal; United Nations and Far East Medal; and war service badges. 

Program Record Number: VAC MVA 005

Just information for those that want to research what I have posted taken from http://www.infosource.gc.ca/inst/dva/fed05_e.asp


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

and here is a link I think will help you,

Please use it, and research sites that more suit your line of thought.

Other Blog sites

dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll (13 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Truth be known, my bet was only with myself as well - I have similar (I suspect) strong views on human nature - I'm just not _QUITE_ experienced enough to not doubt my own convictions and experience - but I'm rapidly getting there.



I do too and I can relate...wish I had made a bet myself for something good though   

I may come across differently than what i intend to. To my defence within the last 48 hours, we took in a stray dog that we are trying to find it's owners, and when you are dealing with a puppy under 6 months old, there is very little sleep(like last night).

I am trying to take my time more and making sure to post where I have received my information from so that others can see that it is not all based on my own personal opinion. I really am a smart, sweet, funny chick if you were to give me even half a chance.... :-*


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2005)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Truth be known, my bet was only with myself as well - I have similar (I suspect) strong views on human nature - I'm just not _QUITE_ experienced enough to not doubt my own convictions and experience - but I'm rapidly getting there.



Ah, the triumph of hope over experience.


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> Ah, the triumph of hope over experience.



The diminishing triumph ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2005)

To Bill Smy: sorry about this.

Moderators: I guess you can put this one out of its misery, too.


----------



## Roy Harding (13 Aug 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> To Bill Smy: sorry about this.
> 
> Moderators: I guess you can put this one out of its misery, too.



Agreed.  I apologize for my involvement in its' demise.


----------



## the 48th regulator (13 Aug 2005)

ahh lads,

it was a treat!

dileas

tess


----------



## muskrat89 (13 Aug 2005)

Bill - If your original question wasn't fully answered, please feel free to open another thread. 

All - "The thing about arguing with a fool is soon you don't know which one is which...."


----------

