# Counter recruiting



## Remius (24 Oct 2006)

I hope this hasn't already been touched on.  If it has please delete or move.

http://operationobjection.org/

I find it intersting that their national convention is the Nov 11th weekend.  Should be interesting.  There will be hundreds of CF personnel in uniform and countless other Canadians paying tribute that day in Ottawa.  I wonder if they'll come over to make a stink at the war memorial.


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## JesseWZ (24 Oct 2006)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I wonder if they'll come over to make a stink at the war memorial.


If they do, it would be caught on national television for sure, and doubtless would not advance their cause much if they act without integrity. However I suppose the old adage of their being no such thing as bad press works in this scenario as well.


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## Harris (24 Oct 2006)

Might be a good idea to let your unit recruiters know about the possibility of these types of folks showing up to events.


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## Trinity (24 Oct 2006)

I love their little poster...

It shows a pic of a guy from Abu Ghraib (Iraq) on it.. but
clearly states get out of Afghanistan...???


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## jimmy742 (24 Oct 2006)

I am personally acquainted with a few of these people and, to them, there is no difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. Sadly, the first casualty in any sort of thing of this nature is the truth.


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## paracowboy (24 Oct 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> I love their little poster...
> 
> It shows a pic of a guy from Abu Ghraib (Iraq) on it.. but
> clearly states get out of Afghanistan...???





			
				jimmy742 said:
			
		

> I am personally acquainted with a few of these people and, to them, there is no difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.


which seems to provide more evidence in my belief that the over-whelming majority of the "Left" are extremely racist, and over-compensating. As a brown (okay, sort of a taupe, more than anything) dude, myself, I prefer the honest hatred of a skinhead or neo-Nazi, to the sickeningly patronising of the White Man's Guilt-ridden liberal types. At least the overt racist and I can get in a scrap and scowl at each other over beers and bruises, at opposite ends of the bar.


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## North Star (24 Oct 2006)

I stumbled on their website a few days ago, and decided to read their pam. 

Basically, they seem to think the CF is the USMC, that Canada is the US, etc. Or maybe they just cut-and-past their parent American organization's stuff.

I remember reading a piece on terrorism in Algeria. Turns out that most radical secular nationalist terror groups slowly changed into radical jihadist islamists. The author's point was that they cared more about the group and preserving it instead of their purported ideology. I think it's the same with these guys - they're a Canadian sub-group of a larger American organization that doesn't really care about facts, arguments, etc. 

Read their website, and you get to see all sorts of fallacies at work, including the "Red Herring" and the "Strawman". Oh, and you'll get some downright lies too!


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## Zell_Dietrich (24 Oct 2006)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.   I know allot of NDPers,  anti-war people and I regularly have run-ins with some rather passionate people who oppose Canada's involvement in that particular UN mission. I do my best to keep up with what they're coming out with and this to me is new information and I'm now reading their material.  I think I'll have to add some more points to my memorised quick rebuttal points.  :warstory:

With that said some of their media is funny!  http://operationobjection.org/crtv.html Anti-Recruitment Ad: Runner for example.  Now,  I know a little bit about copywrite infringement,  but ...  I assume they are duplicating/altering without prior permission of the CF for the last one right? 

EDIT:  oops,  I thought they had altered it like they did with a voice over for the American one.


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## Zell_Dietrich (24 Oct 2006)

"General Hillier made the aims of Operation Connection crystal clear at a defence association conference in February 2006: "We've got to make recruiting every service man and woman's business and I mean this. Going from 300 recruiters at present to very quickly 30,000 recruiters and then eventually to 80,000 recruiters touching every community, geographical and ethnic, in Canada. And we're moving from a passive approach on recruiting where essentially we sat around waiting for you to come to us to a more active and aggressive one...""  http://operationobjection.org/about.html

I respectfully submit that Canada's armed forces is not even close to being the size where 80,000 recruiters is a long term number. Our entire force would have to be of only  recruiters.  Then I remembered: “Recruiting is everybody's business. I expect every sailor, soldier, airman and airwoman to recognize their role as a potential CF recruiter...”—General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff  ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/3_06/3_06_admhrmil_op-connection_e.asp )

If the rest of their argument is as poorly condtructed as "He wants everyone to become a recruiter,  we are going to have 80,000 recruiters in Canada",  well I'll continue to read their pdf files.  I'm feeling better about this.


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## career_radio-checker (24 Oct 2006)

I actually came across this a few weeks ago and just quietly sent it to some of the recruiters as int.
Well time has past and this is a growing debate that needs to be brought into the spotlight with a good rebuttal otherwise we could face a lot of unfounded hatred at our universities. It's just starting at my university

This is my favorite part: 



> O'Keefe wasn't aware that areservists in the military don't get deployed to Afghanistan unless they volunteer.
> 
> He admitted he was probably confusing Canada's reservists with the U.S. government's call-up of reservists and the National Guard who are fighting in the Iraq War.
> 
> ...



http://www.vancourier.com/issues06/095206/news/095206nn10.html


This is posted as a link in their media section http://www.operationobjection.org/media.html

Its funny because they use it as one of their sources but it proves the fallacy of one of their principle arguments that students are duped into thinking they wont go over seas when they sign up for the Reserves. I don't think they really take the time to read their sources.

Another funny part is this graph
talk about taking the CDS out of context. Hillier just suggested that all CF members take a more proactive role in representing the CF but these guys think there are going to be 80 000 recruiters on their campus.


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## North Star (24 Oct 2006)

Career_radio-checker - I know...I had a good laugh too. Problem is for institutions that are supposed to generate critical thinkers, many university students succomb to the simplest of fallacies.


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## Zarathustra (24 Oct 2006)

I don't know what to think. Canada is a free country with an all volunteer armed force. If you don't like it, you don't have to join. If you're OK with it, you're free to apply. 

I'm really not a big fan of their no recruiter on campus program. Regardless of your opinion of the military, you want to have smart people in it. The more you hate it, the more you'll want to limit it to your best and brightest. I think they don't see where their policy would lead.


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## George Wallace (24 Oct 2006)

: ;D

This just brings to mind the results of their campaign and the 'runaways' living under the bridge by the Chateau Laurier.


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## Kunu (24 Oct 2006)

Oh, this just gave me the laugh of my day, I was laughing my ass off after seeing this one.

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/RecruitmentPoster2.pdf

Their misquoting is top notch too.  Here, Gen. Hilier's famous line of "...our job is to be able to kill people" had "be able to" conveniently dropped out.  

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/CR_Postcard.pdf

Also, I don't have a copy of the Lonely Planet Guide to Central Asia, but WTF would a traveller's guide have the route for a planned oil pipeline as the boldest and most significant line on the map?  At least Photoshop a fake legend in.

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/index.html

Morons.


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## GDawg (24 Oct 2006)

Don't just sit here and bitch about them, write these people letters!

Their errors and lies need to be documented, rebuked, and thrown back into their faces!
If they get more letters against their idiocy than in favor of it, they might just wake up and smell the reality.

I don't take too kindly to these groups who act as campus "thought police" by banning anyone presenting views, ideas, or experiences that are contrary to their own, especially if they profess to be guardians of peace and freedom.

If you do decide to write to them, don't be rude or obscene, this will only embolden them.
You'll do better to make them think by presenting an articulate and researched counter-argument than an "F-bomb" and accusations about their parentage.


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## career_radio-checker (24 Oct 2006)

I alredy did Dawg... about 2 weeks ago.
I haven't received anything back in response and their website remains the same. Therefore I conclude they would rather show ignorance than admit to being wrong.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (25 Oct 2006)

I'll freely admit that I'm getting disheartened by people like this and by the media's slavish search for controversy.

Groups like "Counter Recruiting" offer such a twisted view of what the CF is doing that it defies description.  The CDS is misquoted, statistics manipulated, facts altered, false comparisons made and CF operations likened to war crimes without a peep from a disinterested media.

Yet the same media will rush to quote one or two disgruntled relatives of serving soldiers, will parade a failed Reservist as a "war resister" and will quote politically-motivated interest groups as "defence experts", all in an effort to stir controversy.

I never subscribed to a left-wing conspiracy theory and consider myself relatively middle of the road, but I find myself questioning the motivation and bias of the bulk of Canada's mass media organizations, particularly in the Afghan context.  I suppose that they'll have their chance on October 28th, when the much-ballyhooed Day of Protest occurs.  Hopefully, they'll ask as many questions of the protesters and their fellow-travellers as they have of supporters of our mission in Afghanistan.  The cynic in me, though, says they won't bother and all we'll see is picture after picture of "ordinary Canadians" (heh) opposing the military without any attempt whatsoever to question their rationale or facts - many of which have been thoroughly debunked here.


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## Remius (25 Oct 2006)

GDawg said:
			
		

> Don't just sit here and ***** about them, write these people letters!
> 
> Their errors and lies need to be documented, rebuked, and thrown back into their faces!
> If they get more letters against their idiocy than in favor of it, they might just wake up and smell the reality.
> ...



You know, I don't think that will work.  I think the average Canadian that might be against the what we do, or the average fence sitter could probably be reasoned with and they might at least listened provided our arguments were sound and backed up.

However the people belonging to these groups have made up their minds long ago.  Whether it be us, the police, the government etc etc.  They basically can't be reasoned with because they won't allow reason into their mindset.  It doesen't matter how many stats you dredge up or explain to them that you've been there, all they see is a uniform and a person trained to kill.  I've been in many situations were these morons won't listen or even give anything you say any credence.  Here is a sample of some of the crazy stuff I've been told.

1. We killed babies on peace keeping tours (namely Cyprus  :rofl btw that one came from that joker Chrethien strangled some years back
2. Were all brainwashed
3. NAFTA is really an arms trade deal  This one was from that same joker's daughter
4. Oh, some guy didn't believe me that we didn't have a don't ask don't tell policy

So on and so on.  They don't listen.  At the last G20 summit, most people interviewed didn't even know what the G20 was.  But it must hav been something bad because all the left wing groups were out to protest something only a handful truly knew about.

Groups like this that use lies and misconceptions can't be reasoned with.  You want to write a letter?  Writer to the basic Canadian who may not know what we do.  If someone comes to talk to you about why we are there, tell them what we are about.  People are afraid of what's going on.  Ease their fear by telling them what you believe in.  Heck, Nov 11th is rolling around, why not stop to chat when someone asks you why you are in uniform.  Sounds corny i know, but you know what?  It's the average Canadian that needs to hear the truth, because they'll listen.  Not these groups, they never will.

Ok ok I'm getting off the podium.


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## a_majoor (25 Oct 2006)

We can send these factual rebuttals to the MSM in letters and emails, although I expect they will be ignored. On the other hand, may bloggers are right wing and would love to stick it right in the MSM and "Counter recruiting"'s eye. The factual information to rebut their points is like gold to the bloggers. Send them some coin!


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## career_radio-checker (25 Oct 2006)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Groups like this that use lies and misconceptions can't be reasoned with.  You want to write a letter?  Writer to the basic Canadian who may not know what we do.  If someone comes to talk to you about why we are there, tell them what we are about.  People are afraid of what's going on.  Ease their fear by telling them what you believe in.  Heck, Nov 11th is rolling around, why not stop to chat when someone asks you why you are in uniform.  Sounds corny i know, but you know what?  It's the average Canadian that needs to hear the truth, because they'll listen.  Not these groups, they never will.
> 
> Ok ok I'm getting off the podium.



To expand on Cantor's thought about writting letters. I suggest we write letters to the Universities which "Operation Objection" is targeting. More specifically, write to the University *Newspapers* who suprisingly list both sides of the debate and run weekly issues which students ACTUALLY read. 

A list of those newspapers can be found here:
http://dir.yahoo.com/News_and_Media/College_and_University/Newspapers/By_Region/Countries/Canada/

Most of the University populations are "fence sitters"-- too worried about next weeks mid-term to really care what's going on. It's the small minute population of left leaning individuals who get elected into positions of the student body government (actually its only their friends who vote them in. Of 5000 students in my faculty only about 300 voted  : ). Naturally, these are the loudest bunch and are always standing up before class wanting you to sign petitions, letting you know about speakers, going to rallies etc... And always having some kind of 'wisdom' to pass on in the school newspapers. Sadly, being the loudest, they are also the only voice heard on campus and so many of the fence sitters are joinging their camp under misconceptions and lies.

Like Cantor said, you won't convince this core of lunatics even if you stuck them on a plane to Afghanistan and made them see this stuff with their own eyes. Who you might have a chance with is the other 98% school populations. And the best way to reach those students is through the same avenues the anti-war / anti-recruiters use. The most accessible of which is the school newspaper.

To prove my point I will draw your attention to a editorial printed in the "Excalibur"-- York University's newspaper.
http://www.excal.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2221&Itemid=2



> Dear Editor,
> 
> Last week, Excalibur published a "Letter to the Editor" in which Joe Assenza compares Canadian liberation forces during the Holocaust to troops currently being deployed to occupy Afghanistan.
> As both my grandfather and great-grandfather were veterans of both world wars, I find this a grossly inaccurate and an offensive comparison, to say the least. I have nothing but respect for veterans like those in my family who fought against the spread of fascism.
> ...



Enraged? Good. But don't waste your flaming here, you'd only be preaching to the choir (plus the mods hate that). Pick a paper and start writing.


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## Remius (25 Oct 2006)

http://www.charlatan.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17856&Itemid=30

Saw this one in the Charlatan.  An opinion piece but conveys a good message.


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## GMan87 (25 Oct 2006)

I really like checking this site out occaisonally for things like this; as it does interest me, despite not being in the military. 

Talk about relying WAY too much on some of the stuff happening in the US. The entire videos section is stuff about the USA and Iraq. These groups have been around in the USA for years, the difference being they actually have some valid points.

Yes the Stop-Loss policy being used for the War With Iraq would be enough to discourage many from joining the military. I strongly disagree with this whole rule; BUT I don't think anything even close to it exists in Canada (although Hillier really needs to be more careful with his choice of words in front of the media)

They question recruiting. I don't think Canadian recruiting is anything like the USA's. I have never seen a recruiter in a mall or a school in my life. And you guys would know this better than me, but I don't believe they have quotas?  

In one video the guy talks about how he was sent to Iraq after dislocating discs in his back during training. Seeing some people talk about some of the medical discharge reasons, I really can't see that happening with the Canadian Forces. He also talks about how the military dentists pulled teeth by taking a piece of his jaw with it. Again, I doubt this would happen.

One video has staff seargents literally hitting and punching new recruits. Now I may be really out of the loop on this, but I thought that was illegal?

Then there was that 80,000 recruiters thing. Anyone with a tiny bit of common sense can see that this number is obviously taken out of context consdiering that is aroudn the size of the entire CF (I immediately assumed that he had meant "every person is a recruiter" despite never hearing Hillier's quote). 

They imply the military will completely take advantage of you. I'm sure things aren't perfect, but seeing as how reservists are not forced into war, and they are reluctant to send regular forces on a second tour of duty in Afghanistan shows me this isn't the USA. 

This site is obviously poeple protesting the military in general as a way to protest the War in Afghanistan. But they are relying way too much on another countries military, misquotes, quotes out of context, and grave images (showing a graveyard really accomplishes nothing, people joining the military know the risk), to be effective to anyone looking at the site with a clear mind.


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## peaches (25 Oct 2006)

Once again life's loosers on the left are at it.  As I have stated before in other posts, these people are mentally ill, they hate evrything about Canada and our society, not just our military.  These people are nobodys, nothings.  They want to control what we think, say see on TV, what cars we drive, what business can do.  They are against freedom, unless it is there version of freedom.


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## Red 6 (25 Oct 2006)

I checked out a couple of these videos and parts are very subtle in their disinformation. Yes, it's true the US armed forces have been using the stop loss, but that's part of our system and it isn't any big secret. Everybody enlists and incurs an eight year committment. Hell, as a military retiree, I'm subject to involuntary recall until age 60. These guys with a beef about getting stop lossed may have a personal gripe (maybe well founded) but they were volunteers.

I recruited in Ocenaside, CA from 92-95. I don't ever recall forcing somebody's hand onto the enlistment contract. Yes, recruiters have monthly missions and are held accountable for success or failure, and some cross the line into recruiting improprieties. When they are caught, they are dealt with, usually harshly under the UCMJ. The trouble is, you cannot tell a kid everything that is going to happen to him in the Army, good or bad. A lot of kids confuse this when the going gets tough and their lack of fortitude starts to show. Instead of thinking, "I better dig in here," they say, "that f***** recruiter lied to me."

So far as that moron talking about his teeth, I think that is just flat-out stupid. Military dentists use exactly the same techniques as their civilian counterparts. I had fillings done 26 years ago by a Navy dentist and they're still good to go.


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## cplcaldwell (25 Oct 2006)

I read the PDF's on the ACT site last night, the one's about organizing a Counter Recruitment campaign.

career_radio_checker noted the letter from a Corrie Sakuluk to the York U Exclaibur on the 'economic coercion' idea. This idea is also strongly reinforced in the PDF's I refer to above.

Perhaps it has some credence.

However I suspect that these folks are grapsing at a very slender reed to infer that the CF is displacing huge numbers of students into the CF through Universtiy training programs.

*I am wondering, can anyone in the know give us a quick run down on the numbers involved in Regular Force University Entrance Plans, as presently constituted*? I don't think we need to delve to deeply into the Reserve Education Funding plans as we all know since Reservists are a limited liability contract the 'free education-then fight' argument holds no water.

I hope someone can come up with this, I think it'll go a long way to debunking some of ACTs arguments.


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## Synthos (25 Oct 2006)

wow. 80 000 recruiters?!!?! Pull the troops out of afghanistan, we need them recruiting! In fact, mobilize the reserves we need them recruiting too!

Obviously these people have a learning disability because they can't distinguish the number of projected recruiters from the NUMBER OF REG & RES in the CF TOTAL. Nor can they quote properly.

These people are stupid and ignorant. I only wish that combination caused spontaneous combustion.


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## bcbarman (25 Oct 2006)

OP, thanks for the link to the counter-recruiting website,  very informative.

I saw that there is a protest planned for Banff this weekend.  I know the population in Banff is very similar to that of a university, lots of young kids, many of them from other parts of the world.  Want to see if this guy can organize a pissup in  a brewery.  

Anyone else interested in watching this, come out at 3pm to the Gazebo in Banff and lets see if we can put a bit of fact into this guy's fiction.

Cheers


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## foerestedwarrior (25 Oct 2006)

bcbarman said:
			
		

> OP, thanks for the link to the counter-recruiting website,  very informative.
> 
> I saw that there is a protest planned for Banff this weekend.  I know the population in Banff is very similar to that of a university, lots of young kids, many of them from other parts of the world.  Want to see if this guy can organize a pissup in  a brewery.
> 
> ...



I know, I just noticed that there is one in the town my parents live in. I am visiting this weekend, I might take a little stroll to the library where they are..


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## Blakey (25 Oct 2006)

Well, I see David Akin is perusing the Pay Raise thread, maybe he should be subtlety directed over to this one?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40792/post-468140/topicseen.html#new


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## GDawg (25 Oct 2006)

cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> I read the PDF's on the ACT site last night, the one's about organizing a Counter Recruitment campaign.
> 
> career_radio_checker noted the letter from a Corrie Sakuluk to the York U Exclaibur on the 'economic coercion' idea. This idea is also strongly reinforced in the PDF's I refer to above.
> 
> ...



I'd have to double check the strategic intake plan at work, but the total goal is likely no more than 500 pers for university intake plans.
Clearly, baby killing body snatchers like myself are way out of control!  >


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## Remius (25 Oct 2006)

And then take into account the number of students in ROTP that would have been able to afford to go to university regardless, those that would have qualified for scholarships.  Those that wanted to join the military regardless, reservists who Component tranferred into ROTP etc etc.  Not counting all those reservists not forced to go overseas that get a partial tuition reimbursement.

Some coersion. :


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## JesseWZ (25 Oct 2006)

That 500 number sounds approximatly correct. Then lets count all those that started ROTP and didn't complete it do to medical reasons, personal reasons or component transfers into the reserves.


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## cplcaldwell (25 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the 500 number. I have to go play in the mud for a few days, when I get back I'll try to work with that number and play nasty with it. My recommendation, stock up on tin foil....


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## Zell_Dietrich (27 Oct 2006)

I have spent the past few days reading everything on their site.  I've done background research on their points/arguments and I honestly think that most of their assertions are based on faulty facts.  The things that are true,  are presented in a biased way that infers things that are untrue.  On an amusing note,  I honestly believe that the information on that website was simply edited for a Canadian context.  The best examples of this is the pipeline accusation,  and the cartoons which are about Iraq.

     It makes me sad to see something so poorly constructed.  I understand there are genuine and valid arguments against our involvement in Afghanistan,  just as there are valid arguments in support of our involvement.  (I personally support the mission)  But I disapprove of poorly thought out, tendentious material.  It is an insult to the intelligence of all who take the time to read it.  On the plus side,  I've added to my counter points against the Objection crowd.  (And now I can quote their own material's factual errors - I loved how they denied Al-quida's involvement in Sept 11)


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Oct 2006)

Short version= protest fizzles, likely protesters were to lazy to get out of bed.... ;D


Recruitment protests recruit few supporters in three Canadian cities
October 27, 2006 - 0:13 pm 

FREDERICTON (CP) - Planned protests at Canadian Forces recruiting centres in Fredericton, Ottawa and Vancouver on Friday failed to get the attention organizers were looking for.

Youth groups opposed to the war in Afghanistan were hoping to discourage young people from joining the military, but only a handful of protesters turned out in each location.

In Ottawa, organizer Dylan Penner said the real goal was to bring attention to Operation Objection - which features protests planned for 35 cities across the country Saturday.

"In light of what we are seeing in Afghanistan, which is a war that we oppose and are calling for the troops to come home from, we see counter-recruitment as an important part of ending that war," said Penner.

In Fredericton, just four people turned out to talk with the media, and then left without attempting to speak with anyone entering the recruitment centre.

"Our efforts should be more focused on maintaining our national security versus being over there (in Afghanistan) in a war that we can't win.?.?.," said Charles Fournier.

Meanwhile, Tracy Glynn said she thinks the federal government should be investing in Canada's education system rather than putting more into the Department of National Defence.

"There will always be opposition to what the military is doing," said Lt. Adam Thompson, a Defence spokesman in Ottawa.

" But our main goal and focus is to try to make sure the Canadian public knows specifically what the military is doing in Afghanistan, and our role in reconstruction efforts." More than 2,000 Canadian troops are stationed in Afghanistan.

http://www.news1130.com/news/national/article.jsp?content=n102737A


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## GMan87 (27 Oct 2006)

Anyone notice a link they have to a story printed in York University's newspaper: http://www.excal.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2122&Itemid=2

Basically there was a (voluntary) frosh activity that involved learning about the military and doing some military type exercises (obstacle course, etc.). It doesn't sound like some secret recruiting plan, but just an activity (kind of like some NHL team this year went to an American Army Base for the "boot camp" experience for teambuiding)

And  then here's a nice quote
"   During last year's career fair in York Lanes on Sept. 29, two military recruitment officers were driven off by a group of protestors chanting: "Army out of Afghanistan, Army out of York." 

Okay the War in Afghanistan is debateable. Right now I support it, since I still think there is a light at the end of the tunnel, someday I may change my mind. The point is, you can't ban employers from an event because you don't agree with them. Do we kick out Nike because of sweatshops? What about the oil companies because of the environment? What about Microsoft for some of its anti competition practices? Ford for laying off all those employees? ... There are very few truly ethical companies out there.

The only way I can see recruiting on campus as innapropriate is if they are being pushy and like "stalking" kids trying to get them to sign up. From how I understand it, they'd just be sitting at a booth giving information about the military.  I also kind of agreed with one case I heard in the USA where the school didn't want recruiters on campus because they have a policy that any employers must not discriminate, which the US military does with "don't ask don't tell". But the Canadian Forces do not have any policy such as this.

This whole "no recuriters on campus" thing is ridiculous. These are university students, they won't be "tricked" into joining the military. The information should be available to them, as a military career could be a very rewarding career for some students.

And one other thing about the original site, they make it sound way too much like students are just joining the military to get a "college" education (using the word college again makes it seem like this was a site for the US).  This is really only true in the reserves (who won't be forced into Afghanistan) and for ROTP potential officers. Besides, in Canada, education isn't THAT expensive and there are a lot of ways to help pay for it. I'm sure there's some people in the military for free or cheaper education, but most probably honestly want to try the career.


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## GMan87 (27 Oct 2006)

One quote says it all


> "Our efforts should be more focused on maintaining our national security versus being over there (in Afghanistan) in a war that we can't win.?.?.," said Charles Fournier.


He basically just admitted that the whole thing has nothing to do with the military being a bad career option (he supports national security, which I assume involves military), but just a new way to protest the war.


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## mover1 (27 Oct 2006)

Its like reading a Canadian Hustler. THey took out all the American references and slapped in some canadian ones instead..


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## retiredgrunt45 (28 Oct 2006)

These are the same people i see everyday standing on a street corner with their backwards ball caps, passing around a big "Duby" and asking for handouts because their to damn lazy to go out and get a job. Lots of flapping gums but they don't have the "Balls" to back up their convictions.They'd rather hide behind their meanigless signs and cowardly chants rather than doing something meanigfull with their lives. 

 My daughter dated one of these losers a few months back, he had plenty to say about why we shouldn't be fighting the Americans war spewing from his lips but nothing inteligient to back it up with. he almost had her convinved until i set her straight and she told him to take a hike. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that i allowed one of these cowards in my home!!


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## Zell_Dietrich (28 Oct 2006)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> It makes me sick to my stomach to think that i allowed one of these cowards in my home!!



No don't hold back,  tell us how you really feel.  :rofl:

I've heard some intelligent and valid points against our involvement in Afghanistan. I even read a few on the counter recruiting website.  The fun part is,  the ones that I've found who can structure a proper argument are the same ones who if you clearly state a detailed and logical argument for Afghanistan are quickly convinced.  Personally I loosesome respect for people who can't back up their positions with a clear reasoned argument - with facts.    (regardless if they agree with me or not)  I hate soundbyte politics,  "No blood for Oil", "The Dixie chicks are traitors", "Get Canada out of Iraq".... all of those slogans I've heard,  all of them are vapid.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Oct 2006)

Funny how the US army is considered unethical for it's policy on gays, yet it was and still is the best job for vi sable minorities. In fact when all of the other companies where avoiding hiring Blacks, the US army was recruiting them and making them leaders, yep no hypocrisy there.... :


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## GMan87 (28 Oct 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Funny how the US army is considered unethical for it's policy on gays, yet it was and still is the best job for vi sable minorities. In fact when all of the other companies where avoiding hiring Blacks, the US army was recruiting them and making them leaders, yep no hypocrisy there.... :


well I suppose at least the US military is open about the policy (although I still disagree with it). Those copmanies probably don't take so much heat because there is no official policy "no women or blacks in senior management" or whatever. Just get exluded in the hiring process.


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## Zell_Dietrich (28 Oct 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Funny how the US army is considered unethical for it's policy on gays, yet it was and still is the best job for vi sable minorities. In fact when all of the other companies where avoiding hiring Blacks, the US army was recruiting them and making them leaders, yep no hypocrisy there.... :



Well,  with respect,  an argument could be made that this is along the same lines as a poverty draft.  I know it is a tendentious argument,  but it isn't hypocritical - vapid, spurious and poorly constructed,  but cohesive with their overall belief structure,  which I’ve found to be founded on fundamentally false assertions and swiftly constructed arguments.  

I want to make a website as a resource center to educate Canadians on the Afghanistan mission,  why we're there,  what we are doing and so forth... I think I will.


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## McG (28 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I want to make a website as a resource center to educate Canadians on the Afghanistan mission,  why we're there,  what we are doing and so forth... I think I will.


You could just point to Ruxted.ca


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## Zell_Dietrich (28 Oct 2006)

MCG said:
			
		

> You could just point to Ruxted.ca


I just checked out that site,   it is almost exactly what I was thinking,  except better graphics and citing sources.    I have allot of reading ahead of me. Thank you for the website,  honestly this is the first time I've seen it.


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## GMan87 (28 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> Well,  with respect,  an argument could be made that this is along the same lines as a poverty draft.  I know it is a tendentious argument,  but it isn't hypocritical - vapid, spurious and poorly constructed,  but cohesive with their overall belief structure,  which I’ve found to be founded on fundamentally false assertions and swiftly constructed arguments.
> 
> I want to make a website as a resource center to educate Canadians on the Afghanistan mission,  why we're there,  what we are doing and so forth... I think I will.


Your posts in this thread have been excellent and verly balanced, so I'd definately look at that.


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## Klc (28 Oct 2006)

I think these are the same jokers that were handing out flyers a couple of times at the mall in Vernon during summer training when I was in Army Cadets.

They flyers made no sense whatsoever, and tried to convince us that we were being "brainwashed by the government" and that the cadet program was immoral for "having child soldiers". 
We just kind of looked at the hippies funny and threw the flyers out in the nearest garbage bin. (Would have been nice to 'explain' some things to them, but we were in uniform)

I didn't believe it, and I was there... I can't make this stuff up.

[Edit : typo]


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## Zell_Dietrich (28 Oct 2006)

Klc said:
			
		

> I didn't believe it, and I was there... I can't make this stuff up.



AARRGGG I just had a flashback to that Liberal campain commercial "Soldiers with guns in our cities"   

Just when I thought I was free of it....


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## career_radio-checker (30 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> AARRGGG I just had a flashback to that Liberal campain commercial "Soldiers with guns in our cities"
> 
> Just when I thought I was free of it....



Ironic how there is some truth to it though.
Just look at Ex Charging Bison and Ex Arcon that were both recent urban exercises, complete with tactical helicopters, arty-sims, and guns.

It will be interesting to see the next election's campaign adds.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> Well,  with respect,  an argument could be made that this is along the same lines as a poverty draft.  I know it is a tendentious argument,  but it isn't hypocritical - vapid, spurious and poorly constructed,  but cohesive with their overall belief structure,  which I’ve found to be founded on fundamentally false assertions and swiftly constructed arguments.
> 
> I want to make a website as a resource center to educate Canadians on the Afghanistan mission,  why we're there,  what we are doing and so forth... I think I will.



Well since the army does not control the ecomony, how are they responsible for the poverty? How many Black CEO's of major companies are there? How many black generals? In WWII the US military was very racial, shortly after the war, thoses barriers began to fall, faster in the army then in the rest of the forces. Once Blacks were accepted into the Officer ranks, it was only a matter of time before they rose to the rank of general. The US Army needed the blacks for sure, but they also offered them a way out of the cottonfields and slums. The US miltary has some very good educational programs and career devolopment resources. It is an employer that has outstripped almost all the others in the US in giving visable minorities a leg up. I guess that does not jive with the Lefties view of the miltary, therefore they must dismiss it with claptrap about poverty drafts.


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## Zell_Dietrich (30 Oct 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well since the army does not control the ecomony, how are they responsible for the poverty? How many Black CEO's of major companies are there? How many black generals? In WWII the US military was very racial, shortly after the war, thoses barriers began to fall, faster in the army then in the rest of the forces. Once Blacks were accepted into the Officer ranks, it was only a matter of time before they rose to the rank of general. The US Army needed the blacks for sure, but they also offered them a way out of the cottonfields and slums. The US miltary has some very good educational programs and career devolopment resources. It is an employer that has outstripped almost all the others in the US in giving visable minorities a leg up. I guess that does not jive with the Lefties view of the miltary, therefore they must dismiss it with claptrap about poverty drafts.



I think their argument goes like this:

When the Government cuts funding for schools, government loans and scholarships and puts twice the money insted into marketing for the army and training programs in the army that come with compulsory service. They are strategically limiting the options for a select group of people that is the poverty draft.   Now by failing to enforce regulations to stop discrimination in society or provide other opportunities towards some visible minorties it is similar to a poverty draft.

I think I said that I found it to be a poor argument,  but still, as I said before cohesive with their overall belief structure.  (Which says that the government is responsible for providing opportunities for everyone) :


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I think their argument goes like this:
> 
> When the Government cuts funding for schools, government loans and scholarships and puts twice the money insted into marketing for the army and training programs in the army that come with compulsory service. They are strategically limiting the options for a select group of people that is the poverty draft.   Now by failing to enforce regulations to stop discrimination in society or provide other opportunities towards some visible minorties it is similar to a poverty draft.
> 
> I think I said that I found it to be a poor argument,  but still, as I said before cohesive with their overall belief structure.  (Which says that the government is responsible for providing opportunities for everyone) :



I think you are being overly polite for people that can not comprehend that the government is just to screwed up to manage these conspiracies Most of the education budgets are managed by the state in the US, whereas the funding for the military goes through the Federal Treasury. There are to many players to make it a grand scheme, the army is being punished for doing the right thing and giving disfranchised people a chance to get a leg up. Now if all the Blacks in the US became middle class, would they give a sh*t about Jessie Jackson, ACLU and other groups that claim to represent them?


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## Zell_Dietrich (30 Oct 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I think you are being overly polite for people that ....


I'm sorry I'm overly polite. :rofl:

Now to the issue at hand,  I'm just waiting for this group to start up in my school a "counter recruiting group" ... I'm already prepairing my harassment complaint and to have the group banned for being a hate group... (Some of their posted material more than skirts our rather vague hate crime laws,  but they easily cross the line of allowing for a safe and tolerant environment in which to learn)   ;D

My voice is as free as theirs,  and I have a right to go to school without having a leaflet stuffed in my face about how I am engaging an illegal war of aggression. (And various slanderous accusations)


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## paracowboy (30 Oct 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> Now to the issue at hand,  I'm just waiting for this group to start up in my school a "counter recruiting group" ... I'm already prepairing my harassment complaint and to have the group banned for being a hate group... (Some of their posted material more than skirts our rather vague hate crime laws,  but they easily cross the line of allowing for a safe and tolerant environment in which to learn)
> 
> My voice is as free as theirs,  and I have a right to go to school without having a leaflet stuffed in my face about how I am engaging an illegal war of aggression. (And various slanderous accusations)


oooohhhh, I LIKE that!


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## Love793 (30 Oct 2006)

Humorous (true) incident in Windsor On a couple of weeks ago.  At the local community college, CFRC Hamilton, Det Windsor had a info booth up, with two recruiters attending.  A student at the school was handing out "misinformation" directly in front of the booth, basically saying the CF are Murders, Liars, Blah Blah.  The usually left wing anarchist stuff.  One the recruiters, politely and professionally asked the guy what he was handing, like she didn't already know.  The guy avoided her question intially however, eventually was coerced in giving the recruiter a copy.  Her partner and herself read it over, chuckled and went on to explain in a professional manner the errors of the guys flier.  They also pointed out any truths in the flier that the guy had.  After speaking with the second recruiter for about 20 mins, and taking some job info, the guy set up a appointment with CFRC, to start his processing. So much for these peoples morale convictions.  BTW, I believe one the careers he's looking at is 031. ;D


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## GMan87 (30 Oct 2006)

Klc said:
			
		

> I think these are the same jokers that were handing out flyers a couple of times at the mall in Vernon during summer training when I was in Army Cadets.
> 
> They flyers made no sense whatsoever, and tried to convince us that we were being "brainwashed by the government" and that the cadet program was immoral for "having child soldiers".
> We just kind of looked at the hippies funny and threw the flyers out in the nearest garbage bin. (Would have been nice to 'explain' some things to them, but we were in uniform)
> ...


Wait, you mean they were protesting against cadets???? Some people really have too much time on their hands.  A structured after school program that is essentially free (unlike the rising costs of most sports and other after school activities), gives students lots of different experiences, and teaches a bit about responsibility. Ya, really horrible. The same people will probably protest the next day that students are joining gangs because the government isn't creating enough social programs :

There's a difference between protesting for a cause, and protesting for the purpose of protesting.

By the way, I wish you would have kept that flyer and scanned it to the computer, would be interesting to see.


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## Klc (30 Oct 2006)

That's right.... Protesting cadets, of all things. Army Cadets, in perticular. It was at a summer training centre, and they were waiting for us at the mall on a sunday (We get sundays off, so there was a bus running from the base to the mall.)

In hindsight, I also really wish I had kept the flyer. At the time, the best responce seemed to be crumpling it up and walking over to a garbage recepticle while looking at them as if they had just told us they were electric jesus. (Also thought of dropping it on the ground, but that wouldn't be the respectable thing to do, and we were in uniform)


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## GMan87 (31 Oct 2006)

The irony with that is that the cadet program is probably more left wing than right wing. Think about it, from a military (military spending being more right wing) standpoint,how much does cadets offer? People coming from cadets have some knowledge of drill and military knowledge, some may have some special training, but really at basic they are starting from scratch anyways. Some recruiter on these forums said they don't notice any difference betweeen former cadets and non cadets. Where I see the value in the cadet program is as a social program. Rich or poor, its something anyone can enjoy. And its generally left wingers who support government funded social programs. So some hypocricy there.

Honestly I still can hardly believe they were protesting cadets of all things.

By the way, Love793, thats hillarious.


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