# For your wtf files....



## Ex-Dragoon (9 Dec 2003)

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=e7dd46c8-4495-4cdc-919c-d58ad8fa7b9c  

I am still scratching my head over this one....


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## chrisf (9 Dec 2003)

Well. Now I feel confused.


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## Gunnar (9 Dec 2003)

When feeling patriotic is now deemed to be offensive, you don‘t need to wonder why the forces are not receiving funding.


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Dec 2003)

What I am shaking my head about is the Americans are the most in your face patriots I have ever come across and they find us too patriotic!!!!


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## Danny (9 Dec 2003)

ah.... poor americans......


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## Devlin (9 Dec 2003)

> An American from San Diego is quoted saying: "What bugs me about Canadians, if I may, is that they wear that damm patch on their bags, the Canadian flag patch. That way, they differentiate themselves from us."


Ummm yeah and now a comment from the shallow end of the gene pool. Proof there are morons everywhere you go... 

That damm patch eh (just being patriotic with the eh),

There would be sh1t to pay if we(Canadians) ever referred to the American Flag in this way. It‘s good that we all get along.


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## mattoigta (9 Dec 2003)

Here‘s a story my friend just told me after reading that article:

While in Paris me, Chris, and Tom got lost. We went into a pub and got some beers. We speak very little French but tried our best to ask where we were. In quick French that I barely understood, the tender said that he didn‘t speak English and couldn‘t help. I was a little pissed off. We went to go pay and as I was getting money out the bartender saw my Canadian passport. He said in English "oh you‘re Canadian? I thought you were American. You are right here, if you want to get back to your hotel walk this way for 5 minutes." He also only charged us like 7 Euros for 4 beers.


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## fusilier955 (9 Dec 2003)

it is so true, when i was over in europe, visiting sweden and holland, if they found out you were canadian they treated you like royalty! (especially holland)  it was a marked difference in treatment from the americans i met over there.  also they were really eager to get canadian flag pins, or canadain flags, they thought they were great. (the swedes also love hockey as much as us, it was good times!)


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## GrahamD (9 Dec 2003)

A Canadian (me) from Toronto is quoted as saying "What bugs me about Americans, if I may, is that they wave that **** flag in all their movies, the American flag.  That way, they differentiate themselves from everyone else."


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## Enzo (9 Dec 2003)

I‘m speechless (and that doesn‘t happen often). 

It‘s a sign of insecurity, envy and paranoia. Not to mention the blatant hypocrisy. So it‘s "wrong" to wear your flag on your pack (if you can ) yet it‘s fine to place your flag on a building in Baghdad and wonder why it upsets the locals?

Get it together folks, can‘t have it your way, all the time.

This is almost as funny as the guys I met abroad (Guatemala). They had Maple Leafs on their packs and said that they were from Toronto. We began to chat. I was surprised to learn that TO was the capital of Canada and hockey was the national sport. Geez guys, Chicago‘s not that far away.


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## jutes85 (9 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## Slim (9 Dec 2003)

I don‘t believe I just read that...?! Uh, No further comment...?!


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## winchable (9 Dec 2003)

I first read this post this morning, and it‘s had me so furious all day that I have been un able to post anything about it.
First of all..we can‘t group all Americans into the shallow end of the gene pool....because there are some good ones.....I actually mean that, but...other then that still speechlessly pissed off .....nothings coming...
it speaks for itself....
Where‘s S_Baker today, I‘m waiting for him to jump to the defence of the stars and stripes.
I‘m never speechlesss and here I am without a thing to say, it speaks for itself you‘re right Slim.


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## jutes85 (10 Dec 2003)

I was wondering where the Major is myself.


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## Danjanou (10 Dec 2003)

This is getting a fair bit of discussion by the granola brigade over at Lonely Planet. Mind they have a habit of starting the great "why do all Canadians sew flags on their back packs?" debate every couple of months there.

 http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/categories.cfm?catid=11 

I remember inclearing into 4CMBG in 1980 and being issued a great whopping pile of small Canadian flags for our uniforms. There was more than enough for the 3 sets of combats, combat jacket and dress uniform.

We of course asked what we were supposed to do with the extras and just got a knowing grin. I later found out that some US soldiers wanted them to sew on their civy jean jackets etc to try and paas themselves off as Canadians.

That reminds me the wife just bought new luggage. I have to go and tear the large Canadian flag off of my old back pack and sew it on the new bag.


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by jutes:
> [qb] I was wondering where the Major is myself. [/qb]


I would assume that he‘s been busy with work and all.


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## patrick666 (10 Dec 2003)

Man, I love Canada.


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## jutes85 (10 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## winchable (10 Dec 2003)

I‘ll tell you why they are the richest country in the world.
Any country that‘s foundations are rooted in "free" Labour, is going to have strong roots. If you trace the family lines of the richest people in America (The ones who bring the GDP up, and compensate for the people who make no money and get no help thanks to a messy social security system) their riches come from having a free start. Imagine creating a company and not having any startup costs at all!
They‘re also the richest country in the world because they are one of the largest country in the world (plenty of cheap labour if you catch my drift). Of course just being large isn‘t the only reason, you need some crooked sons of bitches at the top exploiting the dreams of the lower and middle class labourers.
To be fair there are the people who do work 15 hours a day and work very hard chasing the American Dream, which is commendable. And there are good people in America don‘t get me wrong I‘m not here to bash the everyday american, or the soldier or the sailor etc. and certainly not the major.
I just saw Jutes‘ comment on americas riches and thought I‘d point out something most people ignore when they talk about America being rich and powerful(no offence major, although i‘m sure this message is going to get a nice long reply)


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## winchable (10 Dec 2003)

Ah yes the beautiful red in the flag, an homage to the touch of socialism in our government.

And go into the blowback comment if you could.


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## GrahamD (11 Dec 2003)

> Well all I can say is remember blow back is a Bit‘ch  Have a great red (communist color I think ...OOPS) Maple leaf day. You wonderful patriotic canadians....


And there it is.  Put an American on the defensive, and right away you‘re nothing but a communist.  Doesn‘t really matter to the Americans that socialism is nothing like communism, because if it‘s not capitolism, it‘s un-American, and if it‘s not American, it‘s communism.
Maybe during his rant buddy failed to notice that his own flag also sports the colour red, "OOPS".

All I can say is that if anyone here valued your input in the past, you‘ve probably severely compremised that respect by having a tantrum like a 10 year old, and then insinuating that we are all communists.

I‘m not even going to touch that weird thing you said about your mom being proud of you.  I‘m not sure if that was supposed to be some kind stab at Canadians in general, or if it was a defensive reply to the thoughts expressed here that maybe it is Americans who are a little "overly enthusiastic" with the flag waving.

I mean someone jump in and correct me if I‘m wrong, but I‘ve always had the sense from foreigners that it is widely regarded around the world that Americans are quite over the top when it comes to patriotism.  I think that is why this article we are reading has struck a nerve with the members of this forum. It seems a little ironic that some focus groups in the U.S. are deciding that we are too patriotic.  Some seem think its worth getting upset about, others seem think its pretty funny, like me.
What‘s not funny is that some insecure American has to get pissed off and call us communists on a message board designed for Canadian soldiers.
Even though it‘s a pretty weak and childish insult to a Canadian, the knowledge that down in paranoidville USA it is the ultimate insult, makes it (in my opinion) a pretty rude slap in the face.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

When things don‘t go in favour of the US they tend do do one of three things:
1) Blame it on the fact we are socialists (as witnessed here)
2) Blame it on the fact that the Monarchy is our Head of State (although purely ceremonial)
3) Blame it on Quebec.


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## Marauder (11 Dec 2003)

Hey GrahamD, what unit are you with?

And speaking of communists, Che, sir, if I may inquire, is your screen name an homage to Gueverra and his attempts at inciting uprising in LATAM or are you merely a Zach De La Roacha fan?


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## RCD (11 Dec 2003)

Major I‘m curious.Aren‘t some of your States & Cities unpatriotic for buying Drugs off us?


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

I agree that the article makes me scratch my head, too. A little ironic that  _some_  Americans would think someone else  *too*  patriotic

Che & Jutes - you two are latte-sipping clowns, and don‘t have the foggiest idea what you are talking about. Jutes - tell me your experience with "Corporate America". I‘ve worked on the fringes of it for a dozen years, and haven‘t seen anyone working 15 hour days. Living in one of the hottest places on earth has obviously made you delirious, over time. Che - grow some huevos. Posting something you know will be offensive to someone, then saying "no offense meant" is chickensh*t. If that‘s your opinion, state it, and stand behind it.

I‘ve always hated (politically) Canada‘s socialist tendencies. Rather than crying on message boards, I was active in politics trying to change it. I‘ve seen too many able-bodied people content to suck on the teat of the Government instead of getting off their a55 and doing something with their life. If you‘re cozy pumping your hard-earned tax dollars into supporting everybody else, in addition to Govt waste, extravagance, and patronage - so be it. THAT, my pointy-headed friends, is taking advantage of the downtrodden working folk.


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## Enzo (11 Dec 2003)

One thing is for certain. Event‘s of the past few years have changed many things around the world. But the paranoia that permeates the media and the gov‘t to the south is disturbing.

I always thought that there was a fun rivalry between our two countries. When discussing issues with friends and travellers from other areas of the world. I point out that at the end of the day we are the mouse that trades with an elephant. When you‘re nestled up against the world‘s largest power (economic and militarily) you have to be willing to pick your battles, so to speak.

The intolerance shown towards others who voice their opinions or their sense of identity when it comes into conflict with the US agenda, is simply too much. That inflexibility will cause problems for the US in the future. We are a "Global" community now. Nationalism is a relic of the past. We all will have to adapt to that fact one day. And I say this as a hypocrite for I have the requisite "Maple Leaf" tattooed on my arm (although it‘s a design I created and identifies my Canadian identity and my Celtic heritage) and I wear it with pride.

I am proud to be Canadian. I am proud of some of this countries accomplishments. I am unhappy with the lack of vision shown by our leaders and the level of corruption in our institutions, but that‘s an effect of peace. And an issue for another time. I am especially proud that we live in a society where I can honestly say any ****ed thing I like, on air, and not worry about someone coming for me in the middle of the bloody night. I can read anything I like with the exception of articles that are illegal due to flagrant legal violation (child porn, etc...) and even then we have such a liberal system that arguments abound as to the value of art vs. societies safety, etc...

So by your criteria Major, I identify myself as a Canadian, and I am definitely NOT an American. I watch tv, primarily US but also Canadian, British and Australian. I go to the movies, many seem to be filmed in Canada and then shown under a US banner.  I read books by US authors - including Chomsky (Ever read one of his books? Did you have to purchase it in a socialist country?)

I am not a Communist, nor am I a terrorist. I am a member of the nation that is your closest ally, shares a very long border with you and although we‘ve had to contend w/ NAFTA for a long bloody time, deals from a weak position in almost every area of trade at the whims and agenda imposed by your government. Your veiled threat is ridiculous. What else could you do to us? Forcibly take our energy and raw resources? Why, it‘s much more fun to tariff us when your senators are facing re-elections in states with poor economies. Softwood anyone?

I‘ve lived in the US, I‘ve dated American girls, loved some and almost married one, for the right reasons. Some of my family lives in Washington State and I enjoy them very much. Sound familiar? It should, many Canadians can say the same.

So for you and that response you posted. How is that productive? Yes some of the remarks were a bit much. I concur. Especially the quote you chose to focus on, but look at the source. How would you react to a similar situation?

Think for a moment. If after the events and actions of your nation in the past 2 years you‘re at a point where this is the road you are going down with your strongest ally (and one joint op w/ Britain does not replace the economic, political and social ties with Canada) where will it take you over the next few?

The inability of many Americans to understand that there is a world out there and that forcing a way of life (and the mass consumption ethic that accompanies it) may not be the answer to every problem. This is a direct result of that. In the past, Canadians embraced their identities to stand out from such a domineering neighbour. Now, we‘re doing it with gusto.

PS

Personally, I‘d like to see a copy of that letter. Post it.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

Enzo - I agree with much of your post, some of I don‘t agree with. I just wanted to say that it is nice to read a post that, even though I don‘t agree with it wholeheartedly - is civil, thoughtful, and appears to be written by someone who stayed awake through school. A post based on ACTUAL experience, to a certain degree.

Here‘s the deal - some of you have enough grown-up, real world experience to form (in my view), credible opinions. Some of us have lived and/or worked, in both countries. We are all taking these jabs personally, to a degree. I may think my mother is ugly. I better not hear it from someone else, though....    

Neither country is perfect, both have flaws. Remember, both countries are made up of people. Normal, everyday people. Most aren‘t any different from the people to the north. I grew up listening to some Americans‘ stereotypes about Canadians. I‘ve seen, on these boards, a lot of stereotypes about Americans. Some of you act more like Americans, than Americans do....    

Oh - NAFTA? Funny thing about NAFTA is that no one seems to like it. Well, maybe the Mexicans. I know most US Businesses don‘t like it either. Softwood is a good example from the Canadian side, but there are some examples from this side as well.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

Contracts in Iraq? Any country that didn‘t support the war in Iraq shouldn‘t be whining about not bidding on re-building. If I was fundamentally opposed about going to war in Iraq, than I should be ooposed to taking part in it‘s re-building. Otherwise, it would be like taking "blood money", right?


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

For more WTF File Goodness:

 http://www.americandaily.com/item/3809


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

[/QUOTE]maybe we should start calling all Canadians Ba‘stards, morons, failed statesmen, burn flags and stomp on them...that be okay with you?          I love it! [/QB][/QUOTE]

Do what you want you are a free country after all oh no not really, you have that Patriot Act now sorry.

The only one acting unprofessional here S_Baker is you. You say we cannot take criticism, I think you are a fine one to talk. Awhile ago I could not understand why people had such a problem with you. I now can see why. To me you are the stereotypical American you like to bully and take arrogance to a new meaning. You flaunt your Canadian heritage when it suits you but you are quick to drop it when it doesn‘t. If you are an example of the leadership that the US Army has today then no wonder they are so bogged down in Iraq. You wanted to get personal then there you go.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by muskrat89:
> [qb] Contracts in Iraq? Any country that didn‘t support the war in Iraq shouldn‘t be whining about not bidding on re-building. If I was fundamentally opposed about going to war in Iraq, than I should be ooposed to taking part in it‘s re-building. Otherwise, it would be like taking "blood money", right? [/qb]


For the most part I agree with you muskrat, these companies should not so surprised that they are not getting contracts but at the same time should the US expect any of these nations to ante up in the help of rebuilding?


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## Devlin (11 Dec 2003)

> Besides that I out-rank most of you anyway....


Oh yes let‘s bring Rank into it. Because that is sure sign of intelligence. Give me a break Major, the most important rank in the Army is that of Private.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

Muskrat, Kind and gentle My *** .
First of all, calling me a latte sipping clown who has no idea what I‘m talking about and throwing me in with jutes is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.
Don‘t YOU ever tell anyone what they know, it‘s the first mistake anyone could ever make in a debate. You sir are the pointy headed clown, who is content to stand by in a right wing system (nay, actively PURSUE a right wing system) while people around you die of starvation and homelessness, YES I am a bleeding hearted socialist(Yes my screeen named is an homage to che guevara whoever asked)
Anyone who thinks that social security is a god ****ed waste of time and money can try living on the other side of the tracks for half their life like I did, Canaa‘s socialist tendencies are what makes us less corrupt, less evil and less heartless then our vile imperialist neighbours to the south.

"you‘re cozy pumping your hard-earned tax dollars into supporting everybody else"

You‘re god ****ed right I‘m cozy, because it‘s the Canadian ****ing way, I can proudly say that I live in a country where I know most people care more about those around them then their simple pin-headed, selves.
That is my opinion, and I stand by it no matter how many god ****ed latte‘s I sip, and It‘s an opinion I would go to the edge and past to back up.
And don‘t ever, tell me I don‘t know what I‘m talking about, and base it on the fact that I am trying to be as inoffensive as possible. You sir do not know what you are talking about, you did nothing to explain why I don‘t know what I‘m talking about, you completely avoided the main part of my post and skipped to the end. It is YOU that know nothing, becuase you seem to have a tendency to skip entire posts straight to the bottom. Do you read the first and last pages of  books?


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

And the reason I said no Offence to my original posting is because I did not want the major to think I was personally insulting him, which i wasn‘t, because you cannot blame all Americans for what their country has done wrong, or is doing wrong.
So once again, you‘re left up "queen Creek without a guide", Or without any leg to support your argument on.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

Boo hoo hoo, Che - cry me a river.

I‘ll tell you whatever I want, if it‘s my opinion - that is what makes Canada great     



> I‘ll tell you why they are the richest country in the world.
> Any country that‘s foundations are rooted in "free" Labour, is going to have strong roots. If you trace the family lines of the richest people in America (The ones who bring the GDP up, and compensate for the people who make no money and get no help thanks to a messy social security system) their riches come from having a free start. Imagine creating a company and not having any startup costs at all!
> They‘re also the richest country in the world because they are one of the largest country in the world (plenty of cheap labour if you catch my drift). Of course just being large isn‘t the only reason, you need some crooked sons of bitches at the top exploiting the dreams of the lower and middle class labourers.
> To be fair there are the people who do work 15 hours a day and work very hard chasing the American Dream, which is commendable. And there are good people in America don‘t get me wrong I‘m not here to bash the everyday american, or the soldier or the sailor etc. and certainly not the major.
> I just saw Jutes‘ comment on americas riches and thought I‘d point out something most people ignore when they talk about America being rich and powerful(no offence major, although i‘m sure this message is going to get a nice long reply)


Show me your data regarding the richest Companies or families  in the US were borne of slavery. Tell me of your experience in the workforce - ANY workforce. YOUR experience. Tell me how many US Companies start with no costs. Lots of countries practiced slavery, including African countries. Including the Native Americans. Or maybe you were referring to some other kind of free labour. If so, my mistake. Funny you seem to resent me making assumptions about your background - you don‘t know where or how I grew up. You spout quaint little socialist platitudes based on, from what I can see - ZERO (or close to it) grown-up, real world experience. If you have, in fact, been in the workforce for 20 plus years - again, I apologize. You think socialism is wonderful - fine.


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## kurokaze (11 Dec 2003)

Everyone should knock it off.  Nothing will be accomplished with this childish exchange of insults. 

I wasn‘t happy reading the article either, nor am I pleased with what I saw written in other links posted in this thread.  But does that mean we need to resort to pissing contests?  What about the quiet dignity and professionalism we‘re known for?  That, my friends, is the Canadian way.  

Hurling insults at each other only serves to display how insecure we really are.  I know for one I‘ll continue to wear the maple leaf abroad, and be **** proud of it.  The opinion of one individual in California isn‘t going to change that.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

[/QUOTE]I gotta admit, you are pretty good....but seriously you obviously didn‘t catch the humor and sarcasim in my previous posts...Chief yah gotta take a chill pill....I hear they are cheaper in Canada....        How was that one?       [/QB][/QUOTE]

Sorry I can‘t, one of the Mid Western states bought them all online.     Good one BTW. When I find them I will post them.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

I would like to apologise for my use of inappropriate langauge, in retrospect it had no place in this argument. I know it is censored, but most people just fill in the blanks themselves.

"Tell me how many US Companies start with no costs."

I was using an analogy, to look at America as a company who had no start up costs because of slavery.

"Show me your data regarding the richest Companies or families in the US were borne of slavery."

See Post below.
Also check out this website.  http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=1830 

"Lots of countries practiced slavery, including African countries. Including the Native Americans"

I know alot of countries practiced slavery, and many of them are still very powerful today (england, france, Spain etc.) As for African countries that practiced slavery, other then South Africa which excluded more then it oppressed, I will admit I am had pressed to recall of another one. As for the native Americans, if they did practice slavery at some point, any signs of that were wiped out with the large chunk of their population that died due to European contact.

"Funny you seem to resent me making assumptions about your background - you don‘t know where or how I grew up."

I originally wrote a long paragraph in response to this, but I will limit it to: with all due respects muskrat, you began by making personal assumptions about me before I made any about you.

As for my "quaint little socialist platitudes", Churchill said, "If you are not a socialist when you are young, you have no heart. If you‘re not a capitalist when you‘re old, you have no brain."

So perhaps I will grow into a right wing, conservative, capitalist, heartless person. But for now I will enjoy my youth (what is left) and I will continue to spout idealist platitudes, because as you have said the right to do so is what makes canada great.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

Kurokaze Is right (sometimes all it takes is one person reminding you, that you‘re being a dumbass), I‘m willing to drop the childish exchange of insults its not doing much to further the thread.
I must say I lost my temper, what with the latte sipping clown thing..and being grouped in with a civi.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

Alright, one last thing.

"Show me your data regarding the richest Companies or families in the US were borne of slavery."

Tobacco companies. The Lehman Brothers on the new york stock exchange (and that‘s only one companie on the exchange I can think of)
I‘m not saying that ALL of the richest American companies can thank slavery for their success, but some of the staples can.
It was this free start that they got from free labour that lasted as long as a lifetime that makes them so powerful today.

Here are some more: Aetna, New York Life and AIG and financial giants J.P. Morgan Chase Manhattan Bank and Fleet Boston Financial Group. 
Investment banks Brown Bros. Harriman and Lehman Bros.

Railroads Norfolk Southern, CSX, Union Pacific and Canadian National.

Textile maker WestPoint Stevens.

Newspaper publishers Knight Ridder, Tribune, Media General, Advance Publications, E.W. Scripps and Gannett, parent and publisher of USA TODAY.

This doesn‘t mean that they own slaves now, not at all. It simply means that their roots were born out of slavery, and it is PARTLY because of their affluence that America is so powerful today.

This is all available at 
 http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=1830 
 As I posted before.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

http://members.cox.net/impunity/endofworld.swf 

To lighten up the forum, it does deal with it to a certain extent, and pretty much gets a good rip on everyone.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

I wonder what percentage of Fortune 500 Companies were successful because of their roots in slavery? It would be interesting to see whether it was a few, some, or most. Good looking research Che.

I‘m not going to fight with Che anymore. He commented that he makes more than some people have been working 20 years or more. I suspect that this comment is inherently capitalistic, and think his socialist rantings are an (understandable), youthful, over-reaction to the inequities of life. Deep down, he is materialistic, like me 

Furthermore, I have learned that latte is not his drink of choice, although he‘s a sucker for iced vanilla frappacinos

I must now disengage from what has become an ugly brawl. Che - as it turns out, I do not dislike you as much as I initially thought. Cheers.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

And I you Mustkrat, and I you.
hahaha. Here‘s one last laugh before I never also disengage from this absolutely, blood boiling, enraging forum.

How many socialists does it take to screw in a proletarian light bulb?

None. A proletarian lightbulb already contains the seeds of its own revolution.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

Jutes - Does your mother know that you use swear words?

Here‘s a site that *you* might find interesting:
www.playhousedisney.com

  :boring:


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## Danjanou (11 Dec 2003)

> Oh no, an american is after me, HELP!!! Small words from a small american


Jutes before you step on it (again), here‘s a little free advice. Do some research before opening your yap.

Muskrat isn‘t American which if you‘d bothered to read either his profile of posts before shooting (blanks) from the hip, you‘d realise.

He sure as ****  doesn‘t need me to defend him especially from some kid who has yet to put on the uniform yet and therefore should probably keep his mouth shut and mind open on this forum, but he‘s a friend and fellow soldier so I will anyway.

I will now sit back and eagerly await your oh so indigent and I hope witty reply.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

Poor boy..... you can‘t even get THAT right!  LOL

I would hazard a guess that I have been a Canadian, longer than you.....     

Excellent, thoughtful retort, though


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## Jungle (11 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by muskrat89:
> [qb] I‘m not going to fight with Che anymore. He commented that he makes more than some people have been working 20 years or more. I suspect that this comment is inherently capitalistic, and think his socialist rantings are an (understandable), youthful, over-reaction to the inequities of life. Deep down, he is materialistic, like me
> [/qb]


So, what are we supposed to call a person with socialist views, and a very capitalist lifestyle ???
Che, from what i read in the quote above, you are more right-wing than you want to admit to yourself. Socialism is BS; people in Canada want to have the state provide everything, and more, but then they also want tax reductions. Then they turn around and buy shyt made in China or Indonesia ‘cause it‘s cheaper, instead of buying CDN.
That‘s the part of churchill‘s quote socialists don‘t understand: when you mature, you realize you can‘t have it all...
Finally, I see nobody wants to be Jutes‘s friend... funny how I saw that coming    
Now, I vote we cut the political crap; this is an ARMY site, for the discussion of MILITARY matters.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

I agree Jungle, this should end, lets keep the political issues for another forum.


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## Jungle (11 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by jutes:
> [qb] I guess Muskrat has a few issues with Canada then, perhaps he should stay in the US.
> 
> The fact that i have not even worn a uniform has nothing to do with my views against the US. Eventually i will be wearing a Canadian Uniform, and i will be the proudest soldier wearing that uniform, like it or not.
> ...


Then I suggest you move back to Ukraine, they are so much more powerful and better than here, according to you...
You have been told before by others, I will reiterate: You should do more READING and less posting. There are people here who have been around (not while under mom‘s skirt) and know a lot more than you, whether you like it or not. So far, very little interesting things came out of your yapper, so STFU and read.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

One last thing, Jungle, what was said in the quote from muskrat was taken out of context.
I said I make more then some people who have worked 20 years not because I was bragging, but because I was trying to make a point about paying taxes, and how I did not mind paying them if I could convince myself I was helping more people then myself. The point has been made and resolved since so I dropped it.

Socialism is not BS my friend, socialism is the idea that you care about the society around you more then you care about yourself everyonce in a while.
 In that sense, everyone in the military is a socialist as we are all defending the greater good at our own expense.
 Communism(As it is seen in the world today and in history), I will admit much to the dismay of the real "Che", is BS, it does not work; central planning, tight restrictions and COMPLETELY ignoring peoples personal needs. Socialism could work (maybe...just maybe) because it is the simple principle that someone could care about his(or her) fellow man more then they care about their own needs every once in a while, while still living a lifestyle that puts food on their table and provides for their family.
Don‘t forget the point I already made about everyone in the military being essentially a socialist...

Idealist? Yes. Realist? Probably not.


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## Jungle (11 Dec 2003)

You have it all wrong kid... people in the Military are not socialists. People work for promotions, to get more money and a decent pension. It is even more so in the Officer‘s world... it‘s dog-eat-dog !!!
Canada is not a socialist state; some people like to pretend it is... if it was, we would not be in the G8.
Historically, socialist states invariably turned to totalitarian dictatorships... I wonder if Che would like today‘s Cuba... "Power to the people" yeah right...
Now, you should also do more reading on this site...


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

I‘ve done my share of reading in my life(I have the loans to prove it), and simply because you have cynical view of the military does not do anything to change my view‘s. It‘s called optimism, and I will hang on to it until I become a jaded old army man with kids a mortgage and ex-wife.
You are once again confusing socialism and communism.
Communism is a political system, while socialism is not. Socialism is the simple principle of caring more about the people around you then about yourself, in short, caring more about the state society then about personal gain.
Perhaps not EVERYone in the military is a socialist, but the ones who are in it because they see it as a way of helping people, are.
There‘s alot of things Che would not like today, such as his face being exploited to sell t-shirts and tourist spots. I look up Che because of his spirit and the tenacity with which he attacked injustice in the world, not because of his political views or what he did during the revolution.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

And with all due respects, do not call me kid, or sport or slick.
If everyone sat around and did nothing but read the posts of the same 5 people on this site, everyone would have the same sad, pessimistic view on life and the military.
This is a forum for developing ideas, learning, I do my reading even if it is the same cynical posting from the same people.
I am an idealist, and I am a passionate one at that, above all else I am willing to listen to other peoples postings (no matter how unsupported they may be) rather then tell them to shut up and listen to what the old men have to say.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

> If I were you I would not think that you are such a big shot that knows everything just because you have read more than me and have more "life experience".





> Everyone has an opinion and if you disagree you reply in a civilized manner. I may have not been around as much as you say you have, but i know that you must repect others.


Yeah, Jungle...     


Jutes - a prediction, if I may - even in today‘s PC, little yellow cards Army - someone will indeed tell you, in a very firm and direct manner, to "STFU".. at least once or twice in your career....it will probably occur with their face but an inch or two away from yours... I really hope it doesn‘t offend you to the point where you leave the Army    

Oh - enemy soldiers might holler at you too....


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

If he doesn‘t know more then you because he‘s read more...and because he has more life experience...then why doesn‘t he know more then you?
Gotta watch out with those cards too, I remember a nasty MCPL chewed one up and spit it back at a private who held it up when I was on course once.


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2003)

Wow, that was entertaining.

We definately know who the as$clowns for the month of December are on CDNarmy.  I vote for locking powers for all senior NCO‘s on this board.  Maybe we would have a little more professionalism and a little less potty talk from people who don‘t really matter.


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## Deleted member 585 (11 Dec 2003)

jutes,

I‘m sure you‘re as tired of the proliferation of ad hominem arguments as the rest of us.  Try "laughing it off" so you‘re less liable to lose face, and more likely to enjoy your time here.

Would you agree that respect for another‘s opinion is directly proportional to polemic skill with which it is delivered?  Being civil (as you mentioned) isn‘t enough.  A logical rationale is.

My other personality wanted to write:

(You forgot, "You‘re not the boss of me!", and, "I‘m taking my dinky cars, and I‘m going home.")

... but that‘s sarcasm, not guidance.


Edited to remove coffee stain.


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

and who might they be infanteer?


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2003)

If you shut the f*ck up and do as you are told, maybe you‘ll figure it out.

You can‘t operate your ears and your gums at the same time FNG.


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## SNoseworthy (11 Dec 2003)

Jungle Said:


> Canada is not a socialist state; some people like to pretend it is... if it was, we would not be in the G8.
> Historically, socialist states invariably turned to totalitarian dictatorships... I wonder if Che would like today‘s Cuba... "Power to the people" yeah right...


I think that there‘s some confusion between socialism and communism here. Socialism and Faux Communism (the Communism we‘re used to is not actual communism) have the same origins in Karl Marx, however, Socialism is the more democratic approach to gaining communism - the ideal utopia that does not involve dictators etc. Here‘s a rather long definition of socialism from Encarta (I‘d provide a shorter more concise one, but I seem to have shipped my political science notes from last semester back home):

-----
The socialist doctrine demands state ownership and control of the fundamental means of production and distribution of wealth, to be achieved by reconstruction of the existing capitalist or other political system of a country through peaceful, democratic, and parliamentary means.
Source: Encarta.com Article: Socialism
-----

Is Canada a socialist nation? Yes we are, to a certain degree. The Government owns several crown corporations, which are not meant to produce a profit, but instead to provide services, regardless of how much debt is piled up, to areas where no private company will provide those such services. We have universal health care and the social security safety net - both socialist ideas as they are meant to make everyone in society equal (or at the least, secure). While Canada has its many capitalist points, the bottom line is that we are a socialist nation and moving further into socialism...not the dictator kind, since that isn‘t really socialism or communism (it‘s totalitarianism or authoritariasm), but the true form of communism which Marx believed - one where everyone is equal in society and works towards the greater good, not their own personal gain (no where in this system does it state we must be ruled by a dictator etc. - bottom line is, we‘ll all be long dead before Canada reaches real communism, and the chances of us reaching faux communism are slim to none). For the record, I‘m actually a centralist when it comes to Canadian politics (fiscally conservative, socially somewhat-liberal in other words).

Jutes:


> I know when to shut up and when to state my opinion.


Good to hear, and I respect you for that. However (and this is a general tip to all newbies to Internet forums), the swearing, while we all sometimes do it, doesn‘t need to be so frequent...calm down a bit...also, the regular members of the forums tend to have been around a long time and have pearls of wisdom dripping from their mouths. The best way to get along with people at a forum such as this is to read as much as possible so you learn the stuff before you post your opinion...expressing your opinion is great, just make sure it‘s an informed one first!

Cheers


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## SNoseworthy (11 Dec 2003)

Maybe I‘m just blind, but I think that was the only time Infanteer swore in this thread...bad Infanteer, bad    lol 

Jutes, don‘t try to save face by implying someone is doing worse things that you...you‘ve used the f*ck phrase in some form in this thread more times than is necessary.


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2003)

Foreign armies I have worked with are amazed at an average Canadian soldiers command of the f word.  It is something alot of us take pride in.

That being said, soldier on troops.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

[No message]


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## Enzo (11 Dec 2003)

What is the topic again?

I‘m perplexed, are we feeling emotions over the original article in the National Post? Or are we just beating up on each other because it‘s a good time of the year for a brawl.

Merry Xmas eh, you KE eating *******s    pass the ketchup please.


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## Enzo (11 Dec 2003)

Sorry, that was supposed to by KD.

I need a hug


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## Marauder (11 Dec 2003)

Jutes, you‘re one of the kids in the special class who‘s there because he‘s a little slow, am I right?
I would highly recommend you stop trying to sass Jungle. He is a large, scary man who runs with the big dogs, and ran with the biggest, baddest pack of wolves back when it was still hard. You should fear him and what he could do to you if by some off chance you ever graduate BMQ.

For what it‘s worth, I‘d also pay admission to watch Infanteer make you shed fear-induced tears.


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## Mike Bobbitt (11 Dec 2003)

It‘s hard to imagine that a thread in off topic has actually gone off topic, but this one has.

Let‘s keep the personal insults and dung flinging for private messages and try to stay professional here. Neither years of service nor youth excuse the childish attacks and rants in this thread...


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## JSA (11 Dec 2003)

The direction this site is taking is embarrassing.  For the past 30 years we have been ‘protected‘ by the US military.  Anyone who‘s actually paid attention knows this.  I don‘t have to like Americans, I don‘t even have to praise them.  But I definitely won‘t carelessly insult, disparage, badmouth or make silly comments about a country that, for whatever reason, continues to support our country even though after we‘ve been getting special treatment for years in regards to trade agreements like automobile manufacturing aggreements, meat exports, forest products we still act surprised when they get fed up with our rhetoric and leave us to our own devices.  I travelled all over the world, most folks I met liked Canadians because they identify us as trying to do something good in the world (most of the time what they beleived had nothing whatsoever to do with reality but hey we didn‘t enlighten them), most Americans like us too.  I also noticed that lots of folks didn‘t like Americans but being observant I also noticed that most times it was just envy.  If America is so bad why are all the countries around them (including Canada) bleeding talent and workers to them?  Must be something going right there.  Better get out of school and start earning a living and see where the real jobs and money to pay for everything come from.  Nothing is free in this world and if someone tells you otherwise, check your wallet or if you don‘t have one, your self respect.  Now back to the original post from the article, if the US are that sensitive to us wearing maple leafs, so what, get a life.  js


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## winchable (11 Dec 2003)

Here, here.
I‘m not gonna argue with that.
Never thought I‘d say that.

I‘d like to apologise to Mike too.
Most of it was my fault, and was out of line and uncivilized and not becoming of this forum.


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## muskrat89 (11 Dec 2003)

JSA - you just said in one post, what I‘ve been trying to say, for a longggg time. Thank you.

Mike - my apologies


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Dec 2003)

Well if apologies are going around I guess if anyone should make them its me. Had I not posted the articles maybe none of this bickering would have happened.

To Major Baker calling your service record and integrity into question was uncalled for and for that I am sorry.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

> Neither years of service nor youth excuse the childish attacks and rants in this thread


Exactly, no one can make personal attacks against anyone based on what their feelings are regarding political issues.



> Jutes, you‘re one of the kids in the special class who‘s there because he‘s a little slow, am I right?


WRONG, i have a 4.0 GPA and i can go to any college in Canada or the US i want, but i choose to serve my country. I‘m not afraid to stand-up to anyone, no matter how big they are, so i‘m not gona backdown no matter how much you accuse me of being an idiot.

Out of respect to the forum moderators and the CND army i‘m going to delete my previous posts since you find them so wrong or offending.

Out of respect


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## SNoseworthy (11 Dec 2003)

Jutes, never delete what you‘ve said after its been commented on...its annoying...either way, moving on...

I think JSA has pretty much hit the nail on its head with his latest post.


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## jutes85 (11 Dec 2003)

I went to my airliners.net forum and low and behold i found the EXACT same discussion on the EXACT same subject. Now if you kids can only act civilized, the discussions here would be more mature.

  http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/464670/  

Ironic, isn‘t it.

Pte. Scarlino,

I am sorry, but i just had to use your post on this subject.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (11 Dec 2003)

Jutes, I think this discussion is over.  Everyone made up, hugged and started new posts and such.


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## Infanteer (12 Dec 2003)

Popping smoke on this one...mind your manners kids.


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## Enzo (12 Dec 2003)

Hey guys, seriously. I didn‘t get my hug...


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## DP (12 Dec 2003)

*Hug* for Enzo


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## Enzo (12 Dec 2003)

Thanks dude. I needed that.


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## DP (12 Dec 2003)

lol, no problem, and I‘m not a dude


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## Enzo (12 Dec 2003)

Uh... Ok, thanks ma‘am


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