# PAT for Armed services Versus Navy



## Cbbmtt (7 Jun 2013)

A nice subscriber told me to post this question regarding PAT in the forces on this thread instead of the recruits thread as I would get some better answers.

I have three careers that I'm interested in and have applied for;
1)Aesop
2)NavCom
3)ComRes

Most of the threads I have read about schooling for NavCom have stated the PAT can last as long as a year or even more. I am wondering about ComRes and Aesop and the experiences after BMQ for these roles in the Forces. Any time frames and/or experiences during PAT at 17 Wing, Shearwater  (for Aesop) and Kingston (ComRes) would be appreciated.

Thank you for your time, I look forward to any responses.

Regards,

Matt C
Maple Ridge, B.C.


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## PuckChaser (7 Jun 2013)

For Comm Rsch, you could be waiting years for your security clearance before you go on course, and where you are employed can be anywhere from CFSCE, to 21 EW, to a coast doing shore patrol.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2013)

I'll try to put something up ref: post-BMQ AES Op tomorrow.


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## Cbbmtt (8 Jun 2013)

Stacked said:
			
		

> If you can, take Aesop.  Wish I did when I was getting in.



I will find out soon if my scores were high enough for Aesop, then we'll see how the interview and medical go. But Aesop is my first choice and that is what I am hoping for.


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## Cbbmtt (8 Jun 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> For Comm Rsch, you could be waiting years for your security clearance before you go on course, and where you are employed can be anywhere from CFSCE, to 21 EW, to a coast doing shore patrol.



I have also read on this site or Youtube that ComRes is the 2nd most deployed occupation in the Forces, which is very intriguing to me as I would love to serve in a position that travels and saves lives.


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## dimsum (8 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I have also read on this site or Youtube that ComRes is the 2nd most deployed occupation in the Forces, which is very intriguing to me as I would love to serve in a position that travels and saves lives.



...


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I am wondering about ComRes and Aesop and the experiences after BMQ for these roles in the Forces. Any time frames and/or experiences during PAT at 17 Wing, Shearwater Winnipeg  (for Aesop) and Kingston (ComRes) would be appreciated.



AES Op

Ok.  So let's say you go to and make it thru BMQ.  What happens next?  You would almost for sure be sent to Winnipeg while awaiting the AES Op QL3 (ground/academic phase, called Basic AES Op Qualification Course - BAQC) and QL5 (flying phase, called Intermediate AES Op Qualification Course - IAQC).  At this time, if you are married, kids etc they wouldn't be going there at this time.

While you are waiting for your QL3 there are a few courses you might take.  Basic Air Environmental Qualification - BAEQ (1 week, likely Borden On or Winnipeg) is one.  The Army equivalent is the BMQ-Land course.  BAEQ is "classroom, shacks and the mess for meals".     You might also take the Aeromedical Training (AMT) course in Winnipeg at the Canadian Forces School of Survival and Aeromedical Training (CFSSAT).  There is also a chance you might take a 10 day "Land Survival Course" also ran by CFSSAT in Springers Lake MB as well 2 day Sea Survival Course at the Canadian Forces School of Search and Rescue (CFSSAR) in Comox BC.  This all depends on availability of spots on the courses, when you are slated for your AES Op QL3 and QL5 courses, etc.  However, you must do the AMT course before you move on to the flying/QL5 course.  

While in 17 Wing as a PAT, most of the guys I know worked at places like 435 Sqn or at CFSSAT; none of the guys I know had any problems and got to see or do a few things they wouldn't have in a Army or Navy PAT unit such as flying on the Herc's, going to Springers Lake helping with a Land Survival Course, etc.  IMO it's a pretty decent go for a untrained Private.

Once your Basic AES Op Qualification Course starts at 1 Canadian Forces Flying Training School (1CFFTS) your trade training has really started.  

- The BAQC (QL3) is about 14 weeks long and is basically all academic/classroom training.  Lots of studying and exams but for the most part it is a Monday - Friday, 8-4 routine (with morning PT and some inspections as directed/needed).  The dress is CADPAT/combats during the ground phase.  For quarters it is (or was, haven't been to the Peg in a few years) 2 to a room during BAQC.  But consider that the rooms have a 2 beds, 2 computer desks, a full bathroom, TV w/cable, a mini fridge, microwave, coffee maker and phone and that this is a QL3 course...well that's pretty sweet compared to what most QL3 students get anywhere else.   Seriously.  Unless things have changed, the last day of the BAQC is your first day in a flight suit.

- So you've finished BAQC and are waiting for your flying phase/QL5/Intermediate AES Op Qualification course.  If there is a gap between them, you will likely go back to a job similar to when you are a PAT waiting for BAQC.  I've also known people who were on extended waits who were allowed to go do OJT at a unit close to their home and families, such as the Griffon Squadrons in Edmonton and Borden.  If you haven't done it already, you would have to do the AMT course at this point.  If you haven't done the BAEQ, Sea Survival or Land Survival courses you could find yourself on them at this point as well.

- the time winds down and now you are on the IAQC with around 7 others.  Same deal for quarters except now you have your own room.  The course is about 10 weeks but expect it to run longer as there are delays from weather, aircraft availability/serviceability, etc.   There isn't as much studying and exams but by no means is less effort required.  Now you have to the put the theory stuff to work and apply it.  There is some classroom and exams but the meat of the course is central to completing the trainers in the simulators and the flying missions during the 2 phases (Low Level RADAR Navigation/Fixing and the Homings Phase).   All the theory from the BAQC and the new stuff taught on the IAQC is put into practice and you have to perform in an airborne environment.  After you complete IAQC, you will be presented AES Op wings and posted to your first Sqn.

** if you have wife/husband/kids, etc this is when they will be posted with you and you'll get the full benefits of a move with the CF.  And they aren't bad either.  No packing or carrying your stuff, hotels while you are on the road, meals for the entire family, home sale/purchase benefits, etc.

After you get your Wings and posting, you will then have to complete either the course to become (1) a Maritime Helicopter AES Op - ran in Shearwater NS (2) a Long Range Patrol (LRP) Non Acoustic Sensor Op (aka NASO or "dry") or (3) a LRP Acoustic Sensor Op (aka ASO or "wet").  What's the difference between dry and wet?  Wet, think sonobuoys, ASW.  Dry guys do RADAR, EW stuff, ordanence, EO/IR camera, the MAD, etc.  Both of the LRP courses take place in Greenwood NS.

I'd say you can chaulk off 6 months for the Maritime (Sea King) or LRP (Aurora) courses after Wings.  Again there might be a delay in your course start so you might be employed around the Sqn on a crew doing OJT, at Sqn Ops, Wing Ops etc.

If you haven't completed the Sea Survival and Land Survival Courses you could expect to go on them at this point as well as there are certain timelines to have them complete. 

All in all, the AES Op trade is a good go, good people, minimal BS but it IS a flying trade; you will be away, don't expect Mon-Fri 8-4.  There is specialist pay after you get your Wings and are promoted to Cpl (check the pay tables for the difference in Standard and Specialist pay groups).  If in a flying position, there is also Aircrew Allowance $(311/month starting off).  If you are of the fling-wing/egg beater variety  ;D and posted to a SeaKing Det on a ship, you also get Sea Duty Allowance ($311/month starting off).    

For the record I have personally never heard an AES Op who came in direct entry who did NOT like/love the trade and regretted it.  Like any job there are some downsides but, IMO, it doesn't get much better than this for a Pte in the CF.  I've seen lots to compare it too.

 :2c:


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## PuckChaser (8 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I have also read on this site or Youtube that ComRes is the 2nd most deployed occupation in the Forces, which is very intriguing to me as I would love to serve in a position that travels and saves lives.



Big resounding wrong on that one. If you want Comm Rsch you'll be in Kingston or Ottawa, with limited opportunities to get an OUTCAN.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Big resounding wrong on that one. If you want Comm Rsch you'll be in Kingston or Ottawa, with limited opportunities to get an OUTCAN.



AES Ops, on the other hand, get to go away frequently.   ;D


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## Cbbmtt (8 Jun 2013)

Thank you very much Eye In the Sky.

Your post should be put in it's own AESOP sub category under Air force. 

Just double checking that you are notified of all start dates for courses and you have to apply for sea and land survival courses or are you just assigned to the course by the forces when available?


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2013)

You don't apply for the courses, the Senior AES Ops manage all of that and you'll be informed of your course dates (throughout your career).  

It would go something like this:

- CFRC offers you position, you accept it.  You are sworn in and told when your BMQ starts.  You report to CFLRS on the date you're given and begin BMQ.

- close to the end of BMQ, your next phase of training or location you are going will be confirmed (for AES Op, likely 17 Wing).

- You will proceed to that location.  Once there you will be briefed on your next course dates if known, where you will be working while a PAT, etc.

The process will be managed by the training authorities so there is nothing for you to worry about as a Pte just out of BMQ other than making sure you are ready for the courses when they come.


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## Cbbmtt (8 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You don't apply for the courses, the Senior AES Ops manage all of that and you'll be informed of your course dates (throughout your career).
> 
> It would go something like this:
> 
> ...


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2013)

Meh.  Just passing on the info.  

Good luck!


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## Jacky Tar (10 Jun 2013)

To address your second choice, OP, NAVCOMM is a hard sea trade, meaning most of your early trade experience will be on a ship. The general pattern will similar to that of AESOP, though. You do BMQ at CFLRS Saint-Jean, then fly out to Esquimalt. There will be some time on PAT while security clearances work through; during that time you may do your Naval Environment Training Program (NETP) - that's the "how to be a sailor" course. Your NAVCOMM QL3 will be done at the Canadian Forces Fleet School Esquimalt (CFFSE) Combat Division. Once that's all done, you'll be posted to a ship, either east or west coast. You get a chance to state a preference, but as in all things, the needs of the Navy come first. 

There are shore billets for NAVCOMMs, but as a young sailor you'll be on ship mostly or ashore on course. As you gain seniority, there are more opportunities for shore positions, including being an instructor which (IMHO) is a good gig in any trade.


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## Cbbmtt (10 Jun 2013)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> To address your second choice, OP, NAVCOMM is a hard sea trade, meaning most of your early trade experience will be on a ship. The general pattern will similar to that of AESOP, though. You do BMQ at CFLRS Saint-Jean, then fly out to Esquimalt. There will be some time on PAT while security clearances work through; during that time you may do your Naval Environment Training Program (NETP) - that's the "how to be a sailor" course. Your NAVCOMM QL3 will be done at the Canadian Forces Fleet School Esquimalt (CFFSE) Combat Division. Once that's all done, you'll be posted to a ship, either east or west coast. You get a chance to state a preference, but as in all things, the needs of the Navy come first.
> 
> There are shore billets for NAVCOMMs, but as a young sailor you'll be on ship mostly or ashore on course. As you gain seniority, there are more opportunities for shore positions, including being an instructor which (IMHO) is a good gig in any trade.



There are a few things I've been reading about on this site that make me hesitate on this Occupation over the Aesop role. 

1) The length of PAT in Esquimalt 
2) Only working the NavCom role a small percentage of the time compared to cleaning, painting and lookout on ship which is not as appealing as my first choice. I would love however, to be part of the diving and boarding party.


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## Jacky Tar (10 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> There are a few things I've been reading about on this site that make me hesitate on this Occupation over the Aesop role.
> 
> 1) The length of PAT in Esquimalt
> 2) Only working the NavCom role a small percentage of the time compared to cleaning, painting and lookout on ship which is not as appealing as my first choice. I would love however, to be part of the diving and boarding party.



In that case, I'd suggest you stay away from Navy trades, definitely. Every trade onboard ship participates in cleaning & painting; it's part of being a sailor. Same for lookout, though engineering trades don't do it very much after they've gotten the check-off for their NETP package.

In fact - and this is entirely possible - as an AESOP you might well be part of an air det on a ship, in which case - surprise, surprise! - you'll be part of painting and cleaning and other fun stuff. No CE and no janitorial contractors onboard HMC Ships. Same for CommRes; 'secret squirrels' onboard a ship (when they are) also participate in the fun.  Basically about the only way to get out of it is by accumulating rank and seniority, and sometimes not even then. Landing garbage on arriving in port involves pretty much everyone except the skipper, the jimmy and the 'swain. Anyone else not engaged on other duties is toting gash.


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## Cbbmtt (10 Jun 2013)

Jacky Tar said:
			
		

> In that case, I'd suggest you stay away from Navy trades, definitely. Every trade onboard ship participates in cleaning & painting; it's part of being a sailor. Same for lookout, though engineering trades don't do it very much after they've gotten the check-off for their NETP package.
> 
> In fact - and this is entirely possible - as an AESOP you might well be part of an air det on a ship, in which case - surprise, surprise! - you'll be part of painting and cleaning and other fun stuff. No CE and no janitorial contractors onboard HMC Ships. Same for CommRes; 'secret squirrels' onboard a ship (when they are) also participate in the fun.  Basically about the only way to get out of it is by accumulating rank and seniority, and sometimes not even then. Landing garbage on arriving in port involves pretty much everyone except the skipper, the jimmy and the 'swain. Anyone else not engaged on other duties is toting gash.



I'll have to deal with the cleaning and make sure to do my absolute best to be promoted faster!  Thanks for the information and appreciate any other details. 

I love the surprise, surprise!! Bring on the air det on a ship!! Fastest future painter, ship cleaner in the navy right here SIR!


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## Bzzliteyr (10 Jun 2013)

EITS, thank you for the informative yet hidden info on the AESOP life cycle.

I have my OT beside me and after 20+ years in the armour corps AESOP and Imgtech are the two trades I am looking at.


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## peterpan (10 Jun 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> AES Op
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## peterpan (10 Jun 2013)

peterpan said:
			
		

> Eye In The Sky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jun 2013)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> EITS, thank you for the informative yet hidden info on the AESOP life cycle.
> 
> I have my OT beside me and after 20+ years in the armour corps AESOP and Imgtech are the two trades I am looking at.



Hidden as in "not in the AES Op thread"?  I'll cut/paste.

There's more than 1 ex-blackhatter in the trade.


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## NavComm87 (10 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> Fastest future painter, ship cleaner in the navy right here SIR!



I will fight tooth and nail for that title!


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## Cbbmtt (10 Jun 2013)

NavComm87 said:
			
		

> I will fight tooth and nail for that title!



 let's concentrate on Getting to or completing BMQ and being able to iron a shirt first ;0)


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