# Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)



## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

Evening.....while this thread is US-Centric, lets not kid ourselves that Canada is any better. Yes the US has over 300 million people compared to our over 30 million people, but the same 'fracture' can be seen once you move out of the major cities i.e. Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Ottawa.

One rhetoric we've heard since this who malarkey started is..."we're not all the same" from the police and the continuous denial of institutional racism. Point in case, premier of Ontario today said this.....

" Doug Ford says Canada doesn’t have the “systemic, deep roots” of racism that the United States does.

Ford was asked today to comment on the protests in cities across the U.S. that were sparked by the death of George Floyd, an unarmed Black man, at the hands of a white police officer in Minneapolis.

Ford, who spent a lot of time in the U.S. for his family’s label business, said the difference between the two countries is that in Canada, people for the most part get along, working and shopping together."
https://globalnews.ca/news/7017967/doug-ford-george-floyd-racism/


How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities and what they have to endure from birth all the way till they die? This also plays into that aloofness / denial that such things happen here in Canada.

Take the CAF for example, Operation Honour came about due to a final admittance of a behaviour that has been going on and proven for decades. One doesn't need to be a genius to see that the continuing denial is simply a matter of attempts to evade wrong doing and acceptance of daily facts that minorities are going through. I mean to use a different analogy, Ford's comments is akin to a man pretending to know what women go through during pregnancy.

The majority also has to quit telling minorities "they have a chip on their shoulder" or " they're playing the race card"...these are idiotic comments someone with a privilege will utter as defence mechanisms, to shutdown ignorant behaviours. While everyone will agree that all lives matter, you have to ask yourself...if this was the case all along and all citizens regardless of their colour creed or gender truly got treated the same, we won't have Black Lives Matter. Cops that keep saying they have a few bad apples, the question to those departments, what are you the good apples doing to root out these bad apples bringing shame to your departments????? Clearly sweet F'all! Instead what you get is cover up like suspension with pay, only to bring the people back for them to do it all over again and again. Chavin had 18 complaints again, 18 and he somehow was still allowed to patrol the streets.

Oh...lets not pretend this isn't happening in the Military as well, and the way this usually ends is with a mbr being ostracized, bypassed for opportunities like deployments or dinged with the PER system. Well of course it's always going to be hard for someone to claim their PER is not justified because of payback for an incident relating to a race issue. It's always going to be advantageous for an organization to have a diverse group of people, and by diverse I don't mean male/female, to better have a well diverse opinion and perspectives, this way you're better poised for any international engagements, or dealing with other diverse organizations.

I can't say I'm surprised by the story in the link below. Many other similar stories emerging of people turning this into a thing

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/ep4xdm/canada-border-services-fires-employee-after-racist-video-mocks-george-floyd?utm_source=vicecanadafbca&utm_medium=social


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

[quote author=jacksparrow]

How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities [/quote]

Easy.

The same way Trudeau, a caucasian male, can speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes. The same way Trudeau can lecture us about racism when he's run around wearing blackface.

- Staff edit to comply with forum rules


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> But more flushed out, how can Trudeau, a caucasian  male (who paraded around in blackface) speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes? Let alone lecture us about racism?



What exactly would you have him do?

If he didn't say anything about this on behalf of Canadians, he would be vilified as supporting racism or at least not speaking out against it as the PM of a country (minority govt or not).  If he gets one of his visible minority cabinet members (say the MND), then he would be vilified as "the issue wasn't important enough for the PM to comment". If he does, then he's vilified as being a rich white male.


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

So, this is all you took away from my post above ignoring the more important points? Yeah, Like Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time!



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Easy.
> 
> The same way Trudeau, a caucasian male, can speak on behalf of Canadians when he's leading a minority government without winning the most votes. The same way Trudeau can lecture us about racism when he's run around wearing blackface.



- Staff edit of quote to comply with forum rules


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What exactly would you have him do?


Stepping down would be nice.

But I agree he's going to be criticized whatever he does. One of those "can't win" situations. 

Still, it would be a less eye rolling if his anti-racism spiel wasn't preceded by this.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> How can a Caucasian white male speak on behalf of minorities and what they have to endure from birth all the way till they die? This also plays into that aloofness / denial that such things happen here in Canada.


I would guess the same way you can think that I, and my family, are racist without even knowing us.


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

Please point out where I accused you and your family of this? We're not here to guess or make assumptions. Assumptions as we continue to see causes lives.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I would guess the same way you can think that I, and my family, are racist without even knowing us.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> So, this is all you took away from my post above ignoring the more important points? Yeah, Like Maya Angelou said "when someone shows you who they really are, believe them the first time!



Trudeau definitely showed us who he really is. But you probably meant me right? If so sure.

Ford was asked questions, and answered, and then you ask how he can even answer as a white male. Well, should he have just stared blankly at the person asking the question? It's the same situation as Trudeau, as Dimsum wisely pointed out.  Criticized if you answer, criticized if you don't.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Please point out where I accused you and your family of this? We're not here to guess or make assumptions. Assumptions as we continue to see causes lives.





			
				jacksparrow said:
			
		

> ,lets not kid ourselves that Canada is any better.



I'm Canadian....


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2020)

These race discussions remind me of what they told us probies 48 years ago. ( on my full-time job ), 

"You come from a society with many prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat anyone with disrespect, we will change your employment."

They did too.


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

So lying about the real state of affairs is the best course of action when asked the question, and something you will suggest if you were part of his PR team? The last person that tried to deflect a similar question i.e. General Lawson, we know what happened to him and what led to Operation Honour.

I bet you the CAF male high ups, and even most junior members will never claim to know what female members go through, only a buffoon will claim otherwise or accuse female members of playing a gender card.




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Trudeau definitely showed us who he really is. But you probably meant me right? If so sure.
> 
> Ford was asked questions, and answered, and then you ask how he can even answer as a white male. Well, should he have just stared blankly at the person asking the question? It's the same situation as Trudeau, as Dimsum wisely pointed out.  Criticized if you answer, criticized if you don't.


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

So am I...I fail to see your point???? However, if you're sincerely telling me that you have zero tolerance for discrimination and see every human regardless of colour as humans and treat them as such, then you and I are singing from the same hymn book are we good.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm Canadian....


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

I subscribe to that and as we speak, social media has been busy rooting out despicable humans getting them fired. The Canadian girl in central park with the dog was fired for lying to the cops about a black African american man threatening her because he told her to put her dog on a leash.

Canadian border services just fired an employee. We're going to see a whole lot more of these because racists just can't help themselves, and they are usually not the smartest tools in the box.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> These race discussions remind me of what they told us probies 48 years ago. ( on my full-time job ),
> 
> "You come from a society with many prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat anyone with disrespect, we will change your employment."
> 
> They did too.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> So lying about the real state of affairs is the best course of action when asked the question, and something you will suggest if you were part of his PR team?



Ford was asked his opinion and he gave it. He doesn't think Canada has the same systemic, deep roots of racism that the US does.
I'm inclined to agree, at least from a military point of view. US bases still have kitchens where "the blacks" go to eat. Same thing with other establishments (gym). I've never seen that on Canadian bases. Maybe he's missing something (and me too). 
Am I lying about it (my opinion)? Hardly.



> The last person that tried to deflect a similar question i.e. General Lawson, we know what happened to him and what led to Operation Honour.


I'm unfamiliar with that. What happened to him?


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2020)

See also,

Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged) 
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/315.0
16 pages.


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## Remius (3 Jun 2020)

I took Ford’s answer the same way.  And trust me I’m not a Ford fan (although lately I’m liking him more and more). 

Ever been to South Carolina?  It’s like another world there in another time.  I have family and have been there several times. 

But yes.  I’ve been born privileged in that I have never been harassed or had issues because of the colour of my skin.  I’ve been harassed for being French though, more often when I was a kid.  Actually untrue.  I accidentally walked into a black bar in South Carolina with my brother and we were told we weren’t welcome.  We apologized and said we didn’t know and said we weren’t from around those parts.  When they found out we were Canadian they invited us to stay.  The bartender was an ex CFL player who came up to play for the Blue Bombers.  Had a great afternoon and funny story to tell. 

Do we have a problem here with race?  Yup.  I don’t think it will ever go away but it can be better.  But the problems in the US are far worse.


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## Brad Sallows (3 Jun 2020)

Ford is correct, but not in a good way since it is only a matter of how his chiefly-cited remark is literally interpreted.  Canada has slightly different "systemic, deep roots" of racism than the US.

Racism against blacks was and is found mostly in the easternmost parts of Canada.  In BC, racism against people from Asia featured more strongly than in other parts of Canada, but is probably eroding faster than most other kinds of racism.  Racism against non-British whites is almost extinct.  Racism against aboriginals I would be expect to find to be widespread.  While the patterns of racism against all groups except maybe black might resemble what is found in the US (eg. anti-Asian on the westcoast, anti-aboriginal throughout), racism against blacks is at a level of extremity well above what I observe in Canada.


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

So, my your account, just because in the CAF all mbrs sit together and eat, that means there is no racism? I like how you managed to avoid my Operation Honour point though.

Ford as the Premier of a province should NOT be making outlandish false comments, when he has lived the privilege life and continues to do.

Bottom line is, if you don't walk in minorities shoes on a daily basis, you can't claim to know what they go through. One thing we also hear a lot is people making convenience comments like "I've got lots of Black/Asian friends, I can't be racist"! There is a difference between acquaintances / work colleagues, and friends that you actually invite to your home and who get to meet your family.

Again, just one of those false comments to deflect away from ignorance when being accused of racism.

Military doesn't have Unions like the police which tends to go above and beyond to help cover up acts by dirty cops, and keep them employed.




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ford was asked his opinion and he gave it. He doesn't think Canada has the same systemic, deep roots of racism that the US does.
> I'm inclined to agree, at least from a military point of view. US bases still have kitchens where "the blacks" go to eat. Same thing with other establishments (gym). I've never seen that on Canadian bases. Maybe he's missing something (and me too).
> Am I lying about it (my opinion)? Hardly.
> I'm unfamiliar with that. What happened to him?


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

[quote author=jacksparrow] 
So, my your account, just because in the CAF all mbrs sit together and eat, that means there is no racism?[/QUOTE] 
Yea that's clearly_ exactly_ what I said. 



> I like how you managed to avoid my Operation Honour point though


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? 



> Ford as the Premier of a province should NOT be making outlandish false comments, when he has lived the privilege life and continues to do.



What were the outlandish comments you took issue with? That he thinks most Canadians work together, shop together and get along? 
That he doesn't think Canada has the same systemic deep rooted racism the US does?


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## jacksparrow (3 Jun 2020)

In the same breathe...there is no sexual misconduct right? I think you need to actually speak to CAF minorities and get a true accurate picture of what they experience, rather than make assumptions based on people sitting together and eating.




			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yea that's clearly_ exactly_ what I said.
> 
> I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?
> 
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> In the same breathe...there is no sexual misconduct right?



You're making a lot of straw man statements and really come across like you're spoiling for an argument or fight.


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## jacksparrow (4 Jun 2020)

Glad to see Ramius and Brad Swallows above don't share your blind sentiments.

Freeland did something that Doug Ford couldn't.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/protests-are-important-but-risks-of-covid-19-must-be-considered-freeland-1.4967799

Related news from Montreal...I guess if anyone will know, this guy will know better than Doug Ford.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/montreal-police-commander-breaks-ranks-to-call-out-racism-and-racial-profiling-1.4969563


Again, you evaded the sexual comment. At least try to deny this is also a falacy i.e. double-down on your stance.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You're making a lot of straw man statements and really come across like you're spoiling for an argument or fight.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Glad to see Ramius and Brad Swallows above don't share your blind sentiments.


Oh shit, the old divide and conquer! Remus and Brad are a lot smarter than me so I'm not surprised  



> Again, you evaded the sexual comment. At least try to deny this is also a falacy i.e. double-down on your stance.



Nothings getting by you it seems. If you go through my post history you'll see what I think about sexual misconduct in the CAF including my opinions about 2 out of the 5 upcoming court-martials being about sexual assault. You'll unfortunately see that I'm very critical of the CAF (and RCMP). 

You'll need a different angle to try and discredit me, sorry


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## Kilted (4 Jun 2020)

I suppose that I can only speak from my own perspective, but I think that the Canadian Forces as a whole might be slightly ahead of the rest of Canada as far as exceptance and race issues. For example, there aren't too many other places where I can say that people are as comfortable talking about race. For a lot of people, I don't think that it really matters of someone is purple or pink. And considering that some of these people really aren't politically correct, that's saying a lot. Like I said based on my own experiences. I don't know if it's different in the Air Force or Navy, or other trades.  Of course there are some individuals who have been in the news in the last few years, and a few others that haven't been, but I don't think that we will ever completely get rid of that.


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## stellarpanther (4 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Stepping down would be nice.



Why should he step down?  Perhaps that might have been an argument to be made before the last election but Canadian's went the polls after it was revealed and despite the poor judgement he exercised in the pass, his party still won most votes.  Despite many saying they didn't agree with it, it wasn't a reason not to vote for him as most Canadians don't believe he is racist.  He did some stupid things as we all do from time to time but I he's doing a good job, IMO.


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## jacksparrow (4 Jun 2020)

I ain't got the time to waste going through your history...I'll leave that sort of thing to you to immerse yourself in. LOL

Note: However, I'm NOT here to pick fights with you, so you can get all dramatic on me till the cows come home pal 

I just think your claim that there is zero racism on visible minorities in the CAF is out to lunch that's all.

You have a good evening eh!



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Oh crap, the old divide and conquer! Remus and Brad are a lot smarter than me so I'm not surprised
> 
> Nothings getting by you it seems. If you go through my post history you'll see what I think about sexual misconduct in the CAF including my opinions about 2 out of the 5 upcoming court-martials being about sexual assault. You'll unfortunately see that I'm very critical of the CAF (and RCMP).
> 
> You'll need a different angle to try and discredit me, sorry


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> I ain't got the time to waste going through your history


That's too bad you might learn a lot.



> I just think your claim that there is zero racism on visible minorities in the CAF is out to lunch that's all.


I think your stereotyping people who don't live in the big city is prejudiced and typical of the double standard we so often see from "the left". 
You have a good evening too!


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## jacksparrow (4 Jun 2020)

Sir,

Thanks for this eloquent post. You did not shy away from the discussion, and while you based it on what you've observed, you also didn't dispute that it might be happening. Point in case, your comment about the folks who have been in the news.

Indeed, the CAF is transparent in its hiring of all sorts provided you're able to meet the requirements, unlike other organizations that can look at a resume and base hiring on names.

There is always going to be bias / bigotry / covert & overt racism, just like there will continue to be holocaust denials, and far rights groups who blame everything that's wrong with their miserable lives on minorities, to make themselves feel better instead of owning their faults.




			
				Kilted said:
			
		

> I suppose that I can only speak from my own perspective, but I think that the Canadian Forces as a whole might be slightly ahead of the rest of Canada as far as exceptance and race issues. For example, there aren't too many other places where I can say that people are as comfortable talking about race. For a lot of people, I don't think that it really matters of someone is purple or pink. And considering that some of these people really aren't politically correct, that's saying a lot. Like I said based on my own experiences. I don't know if it's different in the Air Force or Navy, or other trades.  Of course there are some individuals who have been in the news in the last few years, and a few others that haven't been, but I don't think that we will ever completely get rid of that.


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## Quirky (4 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Indeed, the CAF is transparent in its hiring of all sorts provided you're able to meet the requirements



Except if you’re anything other than a white man, you’ll practically get begged to join. It’s no secret that the CAF has gender and visible minority targets for recruiting. Affirmative action in itself is racist.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> unlike other organizations that can look at a resume and base hiring on names.



If you make an accusation you should be able to back it up with names.....listening.


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## Brad Sallows (4 Jun 2020)

>far rights groups who blame everything that's wrong with their miserable lives on minorities, to make themselves feel better instead of owning their faults.

Ironically, there are far left groups who like to blame [everything] wrong with their miserable lives on others, too.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jun 2020)

Racism exist in Canada, no doubt, because it exists everywhere.

Other than the Indian Act, there is no longer any official legislation to suppress the rights of a group of people in Canada. The IA is still around because it's a huge can of worms to replace it, but the worse effects of it have been cut away. 

I have seen land grants from 1913 that forbid the mill from hiring Chinese or Sikh workers. That land grant was technically still in effect, till it was pointed out to the Province, who reissued a new one quickly. 

My wife who is dark skinned has been the recipient of racism from every other group here that she has come in contact with. When trying to get an online tutoring job she surmised that the Asian company would not hire her despite her experience because their Chinese clients would not accept being tutored by a Brown person. My wife is also mixed blood and suffered racism in her home country where she was neither Indian enough or Malay enough for those groups. She said that the racism there is greater than here, but because it's out in the open, it's easier to identify that it's happening. Here it's far more subtle, which can be far more frustrating.

For Black people here in the Lower mainland, I would say that most of them appear to be upper middle class or rich, I am not sure how much racism they get, but it does not seem to affect their economic opportunities.

Here in the lower mainland we have 3 distinct Chinese groups and then generally don't get along with each other. The recent wave of rich mainlanders grossly inflated the the real estate market, driving home price out of reach of the average person. Now is the anger about that racism or bitterness/frustration? 

If you applied to a mainly Asian or Persian run company here and your not part of that ethnic group, your chances of getting in are slim, however if the company is mainly Caucasian, likley it would have minimal effect. In fact your sex is likley a greater hindrance than your ethnic make up.

My take on the matter is that most people here are willing to let individuals make their own impression, even if the other party has a preformed opinion of that group. I would say that First Nations here face the greatest burden and the longest path forward.

My solution is to accept that everyone can be racist and have preformed opinions, so treat everyone the way you wish to be treated and the world will change one small act of kindness at a time. Tell me that I can't have an opinion because of my skin colour is racist and I will politely tell you to go eff yourself.


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## Brad Sallows (4 Jun 2020)

Colin's note reminds me of my amusement a few decades back on learning that some people of mainland Chinese origin whose families had been in Canada for a while were in the habit of referring to more recent Hong Kong emigrants as "FOBs".  In/out group prejudices (which is really what "racism" is) can arise in the oddest places.


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## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

His post also reminded me of the time many Black Americans were stating that Barrack Obama wasn’t Black enough to be the United States’ first black President...


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

What a difference 24hrs make......an about turn



> Premier Doug Ford acknowledges systemic racism in Ontario, backtracks on earlier comments



The PR folks must have been working damage control overtime.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7027358/premier-doug-ford-systemic-racism-ontario/


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

> Five charts that show what systemic racism looks like in Canada





> First-generation Black Canadians make an average income of nearly $37,000, compared to an average income of $50,000 for new immigrants who are not members of a visible minority.
> 
> That wage gap doesn’t go away over time. Third-generation Black Canadians make an average income of $32,000, compared with $48,000 for Canadians who aren’t a visible minority — a demographic that, due to the way census data is collected, includes Indigenous Canadians, who also experience income disparity.
> 
> ...



https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/five-charts-that-show-what-systemic-racism-looks-like-in-canada-1.4970352



> How to be anti-racist: Speak out in your own circles



https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/how-to-be-anti-racist-speak-out-in-your-own-circles-1.4968789


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## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> What a difference 24hrs make......an about turn
> 
> The PR folks must have been working damage control overtime.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7027358/premier-doug-ford-systemic-racism-ontario/



One thing I will say about the man.  He’s not afraid to backtrack and correct.  He didn’t double down and keep his narrative going.  Something like that is refreshing in politics.  The federal conservatives need to pay attention.


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

So his initial claims were just what...an attempt to see if people will agree?  : Who's to say he doesn't truly believe what he said, but the PR folks managed to get him to go out there and actual speak the reality on the street.

In the link below, Edmonton, look at the faces holding the signs

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/black-lives-matter-edmonton-formally-joins-organization-efforts-for-friday-protest

Kitchener-Waterloo, ON...look at the faces in the crowd. NOTE: KW use to be known as 'Berlin', and has the largest German population in the country & largest Oktoberfest, with a lot of street names reflecting this.

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/this-feels-a-little-different-now-first-hand-account-of-the-black-lives-matter-march-in-kitchener-1.4969354



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> One thing I will say about the man.  He’s not afraid to backtrack and correct.  He didn’t double down and keep his narrative going.  Something like that is refreshing in politics.  The federal conservatives need to pay attention.



- Staff edit to fix quote box


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Racism exist in Canada, no doubt, because it exists everywhere.



Great post Colin thanks.

Pointing out that racism isn't just something white people do isn't a very popular thing. 

Your post reminded me of some conversations I had with people about names. I know an amazing PSP member who shortened her female name to a male name because people treated her better through email correspondence (at her previous job) when they thought they were dealing with a male. An RCMP friend who's a visible minority told me before he went RCMP he owned a business and changed his name to a "white sounding name". I never asked why and assumed it was to not draw prejudice from caucasians but now I wonder.


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## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> So his initial claims were just what...an attempt to see if people will agree?  : Who's to say he doesn't truly believe what he said, but the PR folks managed to get him to go out there and actual speak the reality on the street.
> 
> In the link below, Edmonton, look at the faces holding the signs
> 
> ...



So he shouldn’t have backtracked?

- Staff edit to fix quote boxes in quote


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

He shouldn't have made the false claim in the first place is my primary point. He is the Premier of a province, a grown man and even teenagers know that racism exist in Canada. Yes any grade 8 kid knows this.

It's always comical also when people refer to visible minority acquaintances as "friends" to meet their objectives. Do you invite these "friends" to your home, to meet your family and mingle with them outside of work???? It's the old BS line that minorities know too well....."I can't be X, because I have friends that are Y"

Remius...the above paragraph is hypothetical and not referring to you specifically!



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> So he shouldn’t have backtracked?


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Who's to say he doesn't truly believe what he said, but the PR folks managed to get him to go out there and actual speak the reality on the street.


I think that's a super astute observation.

We constantly see people in the public eye make statements and then backtrack on them. Is it because they legitimately believe they made a incorrect assessment or observation? Or is it because people on social media are making such a stink about it and it's easier for the person to just say sorry and say what's expected (demanded) of them.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jun 2020)

[quote author=jacksparrow]"I can't be X, because I have friends that are Y"

[/quote]
Kind of like "I can't be racist because I'm not white"


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

Yesterday, you claimed to stand with Ford on his comments...you making a 360 as well then i.e. are you big enough to admit you are to lunch just like he was???

I won't hold my breathe.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think that's a super astute observation.
> 
> We constantly see people in the public eye make statements and then backtrack on them. Is it because they legitimately believe they made a incorrect assessment or observation? Or is it because people on social media are making such a stink about it and it's easier for the person to just say sorry and say what's expected (demanded) of them.


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## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.

All links from today posted above are true life experiences of minorities from different cities, that paint a true picture of the daily life of minorities.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Kind of like "I can't be racist because I'm not white"


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## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> He shouldn't have made the false claim in the first place is my primary point. He is the Premier of a province, a grown man and even teenagers know that racism exist in Canada. Yes any grade 8 kid knows this.
> 
> It's always comical also when people refer to visible minority acquaintances as "friends" to meet their objectives. Do you invite these "friends" to your home, to meet your family and mingle with them outside of work???? It's the old BS line that minorities know too well....."I can't be X, because I have friends that are Y"
> 
> Remius...the above paragraph is hypothetical and not referring to you specifically!



I didn’t take it that way.  

I acknowledge my own limited knowledge on the Black expérience in Canada.   For along time, as an example, I had no clue about the history of blacks in Halifax.  But I always endeavour to learn about people’s culture and history.  For me the best way to understand those things is to try and experience what those cultures offer.  I have a very diverse workplace.   I’ve learned more from them through humour and food than any book could offer.  

Back to Ford though.  I think it might be better to assume that his own ignorance on systemic racism in Canada in his initial statement was then tempered after having it explained to him and he came out now to acknowledge.  

Would you not agree that that is progress on his part?

If a white person is unaware of his own biases and recognizes that and acknowledges it but then still gets accused of racism because of what they originally thought or said then how is there any room for growth beyond the state of affairs we are in?  

If people don’t believe that a person can change their view of the world then we’ll never get out of this.

And he didn’t say racism didn’t exist.  He said he didn’t believe we have the same systemic racism.

Systemic racism.  People have a hard time understanding that concept and what it really means.  Or even recognizing it when it is there. 

That’s why this is tough.   We all know what racism is.  It’s the systemic part that people have a hard time grasping.


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Yesterday, you claimed to stand with Ford on his comments...you making a *360* as well then i.e. are you big enough to admit you are to lunch just like he was???
> 
> I won't hold my breathe.



You mean 180.  Doing a 360 would put them back in the same direction.  Does this now mean I am a qualified navigator ?


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.



Nor, in general, are Caucasian majorities...for as long as Caucasians remain a numerical majority in Canada.  Do you have statistics as to what % of Caucasian Canadians call minorities names?

As well, the point noted by many earlier about minorities practicing racist action within and across other minorities and the majority shouldn’t be dismissed either. It exists without doubt...the magnitude, either absolute or relative to their applicable racial populations remains for the most part to be determined, but it exists. Is is something that should have a blind eye turned to it until someone seems that “okay, they’re even now”?  No, that’s principally just as bad as any other instance of racism.


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.
> 
> All links from today posted above are true life experiences of minorities from different cities, that paint a true picture of the daily life of minorities.



Except when they are the majority.  I’ve worked up north and was called “white boy” a lot by the Inuit people I worked with.  One even joked about how white fish was for me since I was a white boy,  it wasn’t out of hate, it was just them, being familiar and joking with me.  I was also called “white meat”. 

But yes, it had nothing to do with them trying to make me feel less human.  Or at least that was my take. 

But I’ve been called a frog, I’ve been separated because of my language and I’ve been treated differently because of language.  But that was a long time ago and haven’t experienced it in a while.  But nowhere near what visible minorities go through.

The issue I think about being different.  Humans have a hard time Dealing with differences.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.


I had a post all typed out but I'll be a good Moderator and bin it.  Lets just say you have no freakin' idea how wrong you are, I spent 7 years living that exact scenario at work, ended up in front of the Ontario Human Rights Board wondering if I would have a pension one day. To my surprise, when presented with the evidence, they ruled in my favour and I eventually got a tiny settlement.  Nothing that could give back the days I sat in the parking lot dreading to go in the building of course, so take your totally bullshit made-up-in-your-head claims and............


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Yesterday, you claimed to stand with Ford on his comments...you making a 360 as well then i.e. are you big enough to admit you are to lunch just like he was???
> 
> I won't hold my breathe.


You mean am I making a 180. A 360 would put me back where I started, which is a spot I never left.  I don't think we have the same systemic racism that the US does, or perhaps better said same level. Is there still racism in Canada? Absolutely. The way we treat first nations, past and present, is an easy example. The way we disgustingly herded Japanese-Canadians in to camps is another one. 

editing in part for fact checking.


----------



## Quirky (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.
> 
> All links from today posted above are true life experiences of minorities from different cities, that paint a true picture of the daily life of minorities.



I’m in my mid-30s, white, have no debt, two new cars and I’m financially secure. This is the most hated demographic in society.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Minorities in general are not known for going around calling Caucasian names in order to make them feel less human.



Maybe in your experience;  what would you say if I told you a FN superior officer once referred to me and my coursemates as "you effin white guys"?  

Racism exits in Canada, and it isn't perpetuated only from white Canadians.  Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

I've lived and worked in quite a few provinces in Canada, for almost 3 decades since high school.  My opinion, which I'm entitled to, is that yes there is racism in Canada, it isn't limited to 'white people against XYZ', but it also isn't systemic. 

From a post of your earlier:



			
				jacksparrow said:
			
		

> He shouldn't have made the false claim in the first place is my primary point. He is the Premier of a province, a grown man and even teenagers know that racism exist in Canada. Yes any grade 8 kid knows this.



According to your own first post in this thread, he didn't say "racism doesn't exist in Canada".  He said...(according to you)



			
				jacksparrow said:
			
		

> " Doug Ford says Canada doesn’t have the “systemic, deep roots” of racism that the United States does.



See the difference?  

Reading thru the thread, this is what it is like to watch you try to force your argument and logic together against anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you.  

Over and above that, your posts in this thread come across as very hostile and provoking.  Not all Canadians (regardless of their skin color..) are racist.  Full stop.  There is no argument on this point.


----------



## FSTO (5 Jun 2020)

If we want to prioritize time and resources to people to enable them to become less of the losers in modern society then IMO it should look like this"

1. Indigenous Canadians - Previous governments broke them and that we as a first world nation have people living in such squalor and hopelessness that their only way out is suicide is a blight on this country.

2. Mental Health - The idea that closing down institutions and putting these folks on the street so that the "community" will support them is almost criminally bad. That first responders are now front line social workers is a burden that should never be put on those people.

3. Visible Minority underclass - More education resources and more integration efforts to rise above the poor hand they were born with.

During my 50+ years on this earth, I cannot remember the amount of times there has been a rise up of the people to protest the inequities of society during that time period. Promises are made, quotas established, and task groups are formed. And here we are in 2020 and has anything really advanced all that much? I actually do see progress from the macro level but there are things like First Nations Reserve Squalor that seem to have no solutions to bridge that yawning gap between our cultures in Canada.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Mental Health - The idea that closing down institutions and putting these folks on the street so that the "community" will support them is almost criminally bad. That first responders are now front line social workers is a burden that should never be put on those people.



Case in the local news these days about an Afro-Indigenous woman did a "dry dive" from the 24th floor in West Toronto during a wellness check,
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00gew9LLw0dQJy4ZePu-vT0vxFPbA%3A1591373103778&ei=L23aXoqPL8aDtQbEx7e4Ag&q=%22Regis+Korchinski-Paquet%22+%22wellness+check%22&oq=%22Regis+Korchinski-Paquet%22+%22wellness+check%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAE6BAgAEAM6BQgAEIMBOgcIABCDARBDOgIIADoHCCEQChCgAVDCZljflAFgv5kBaABwAHgAgAGPAYgB5A-SAQQyLjE2mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjK4rjkhuvpAhXGQc0KHcTjDScQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1591373127559


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jun 2020)

Up-thread a point was made about how well immigrants fare.

We can't just lump immigrants by point of origin, track them and measure their well-being, and draw conclusions.  Immigrants come to Canada by different paths.  Some have to score well on a points assessment and probably come here with some assets; some are admitted as refugees and probably come here with almost nothing.

Another recurring question, which arises in all aspects of social welfare, is "why is X still a problem"?  

Many solutions are proposed.  If we could measure likelihood of success in advance, we could plot "useless to useful" on a horizontal axis; if we could rank them by how aesthetically or ideologically appealing they are we could plot "not very to very" on a vertical axis.  The upper right quadrant would be the sweet spot; the lower left quadrant would be the least desirable.  Objectively, we should not heed the second measure at all, but it exerts a huge influence.  We fail because the second quality is easier to gauge than the first and is not dismissed as a factor, so we end up with a lot of situated estimates, and thus solutions, that fit the way people want the world to be but which contribute little towards solving the problems.

For example, a UVic study (not yet complete) has very recently gained some publicity: "Forthcoming research out of the University of Victoria's economics department finds that the introduction of collective bargaining produces somewhat higher compensation for police officers. It does not correlate with a reduction in total crime%u2014but it does eventually correlate with higher numbers of killings by police, especially of minorities."

This is aesthetically and ideologically unappealing to people whose political instinct is to favour police unions.  So what is the likelihood that effective reform on this particular point will happen?


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

Interesting study I will have to read.  Thanks for that. 

So it says that unionized police forces tend to have higher incidents of killings of minorities? 

I wonder how that compares to an organisation like the RCMP pre-collective bargaining.   Will be interested to see how that goes now that they formed a union.


----------



## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

I'll say how convenient in your quest to make a point. Additionally, I'll ask why you and your crse mates didn't address it? Remember, we're told everyone is a leader, and it behoves us all to address matters like this. If you aren't speaking up, you're part of the problem.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> what would you say if I told you a FN superior officer once referred to me and my coursemates as "you effin white guys"?


----------



## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

Congratulations...so you paid cash for 2 new cars and your house is mortgage free. Certificate of accomplishment is on its way to you!



			
				Quirky said:
			
		

> I’m in my mid-30s, white, have no debt, two new cars and I’m financially secure. This is the most hated demographic in society.


----------



## Gunplumber (5 Jun 2020)

Jacksparrow. Are you actually in the Military?


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> I'll say how convenient in your quest to make a point. Additionally, I'll ask why you and your crse mates didn't address it? Remember, we're told everyone is a leader, and it behoves us all to address matters like this. If you aren't speaking up, you're part of the problem.



Where did you see EITS say he didn’t address the racist comments?

So you judgementally launch into accusing him of being part of the problem, without asking him?  :not-again:


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> I'll say how convenient in your quest to make a point. Additionally, I'll ask why you and your crse mates didn't address it? Remember, we're told everyone is a leader, and it behoves us all to address matters like this. If you aren't speaking up, you're part of the problem.



Jack, I'm trying to avoid the dogpile here.  But do you tell minorities that are victims of racist behaviour the same thing.  Are they part of the problem if they don't speak up?

Without knowing the context of EITS's interaction is it fair to label him the problem?


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jun 2020)

>So it says that unionized police forces tend to have higher incidents of killings of minorities? 

Roughly.  The common sense interpretation goes something like this: unions protect their memberships; at the margins more abuses occur and go unpunished which emboldens people inclined to be abusive and/or abusive of particular minorities; at the margins of abuses, wrongful deaths occur.


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >So it says that unionized police forces tend to have higher incidents of killings of minorities?
> 
> Roughly.  The common sense interpretation goes something like this: unions protect their memberships; at the margins more abuses occur and go unpunished which emboldens people inclined to be abusive and/or abusive of particular minorities; at the margins of abuses, wrongful deaths occur.



Interesting study.  I’ll be interested in seeing the results and how it could be applied to more troubled police forces.


----------



## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

Next question....am I actually a Canadian?



			
				Gunplumber said:
			
		

> Jacksparrow. Are you actually in the Military?


----------



## Kilted (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Next question....am I actually a Canadian?



Or does he work for the CBC?


----------



## Remius (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> Next question....am I actually a Canadian?




Ok, Jack, I’m actually trying to have a conversation with you but you are coming off as spoiling for a fight.

Take a breath.  Listen to what is actually being said and try not to make it personal or take it personally. 

Asking if you are military is a legit question if your profile does not show any military experience.  Given your comments I believe you are but for some they just want confirmation.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The common sense interpretation goes something like this: unions protect their memberships; at the margins more abuses occur and go unpunished which emboldens people inclined to be abusive and/or abusive of particular minorities; at the margins of abuses, wrongful deaths occur.



I don't know about the police, but the department I belonged to was frequently sued for wrongful death. Highest payout for a single individual I am aware of was $10 million. Wasn't racist. But, it had a bit of a sexual orientation angle.

The crew received a slap on the wrist, along with some back to school. Then back on the street. 

I joined the union when I was 18. It seemed to me the city would tolerate almost anything. Unless you became a public disgrace. That was the unforgivable sin.


----------



## Quirky (5 Jun 2020)

These protests, during a pandemic no less, will sure fix racism for good now. I’m glad they are twittering to their facebooks and hashtagging their instagrams. Nothing will be gained from this except more Covid cases and sunburns. Remember the last BLM protests and how things changed? Yeah, exactly. People who are racist will continue to be racist regardless what Toronto’s (and elsewhere) Karens march against. Free money from the government, unemployment and protests, we are living in a Liberal SJWs wet dream.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jun 2020)

>Nothing will be gained

I am optimistic.  There was much less overt prejudice in my small corner of the Res F puddle when I left than there was when I joined.

What will not be gained is the improvement activists demand, within the time they allow.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Nothing will be gained
> 
> I am optimistic.  There was much less overt prejudice in my small corner of the Res F puddle when I left than there was when I joined.



I observed the same thing. 

Also, in my full-time career. 

It was 100% white male when I joined. There were minimum height requirements too, which were later found to be discriminatory. Very few over the age of 25 were hired. You had to be from Toronto for your application even to be considered. 

All that changed over the course of my employment. So, I too an optimistic.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Great post Colin thanks.
> 
> Pointing out that racism isn't just something white people do isn't a very popular thing.
> 
> Your post reminded me of some conversations I had with people about names. I know an amazing PSP member who shortened her female name to a male name because people treated her better through email correspondence (at her previous job) when they thought they were dealing with a male. An RCMP friend who's a visible minority told me before he went RCMP he owned a business and changed his name to a "white sounding name". I never asked why and assumed it was to not draw prejudice from caucasians but now I wonder.



As a Federal regulator, I had a fair bit of power as to how reviews would go. We had a new female officer join our team and I was mentoring her. She was given a file which I supported her on. At the meeting with the Proponent and their reps, who were all male and not Caucasian, they kept trying to direct all the questions to me. Finally I stated : "She is the lead on this file and you will direct all your questions to her and treat her the same way you treat me. I am here to support her if required and not to run the file" They struggled to make eye contact with her, so I made excuses to leave the room so they have no choice but to deal with her. I had zero sympathy for their stupidity as she was bright, experienced and worth her salt. Just prior to my retirement I was working on multi-billion project reviews where the majority of people in the room where females and the company project lead was female and they were all real smart and professional. 

Some of the worst sexism though I have seen in a meeting is between First Nations. I have had to interrupt blabbing male elders so the FN women in the room had a chance to speak and normally I found they were more concise and better thought out then the men who were to wrapped up in their ego.


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> As a Federal regulator, I had a fair bit of power as to how reviews would go. We had a new female officer join our team and I was mentoring her. She was given a file which I supported her on. At the meeting with the Proponent and their reps, who were all male and not Caucasian, they kept trying to direct all the questions to me. Finally I stated : "She is the lead on this file and you will direct all your questions to her and treat her the same way you treat me. I am here to support her if required and not to run the file" They struggled to make eye contact with her, so I made excuses to leave the room so they have no choice but to deal with her. I had zero sympathy for their stupidity as she was bright, experienced and worth her salt. Just prior to my retirement I was working on multi-billion project reviews where the majority of people in the room where females and the company project lead was female and they were all real smart and professional.
> 
> Some of the worst sexism though I have seen in a meeting is between First Nations. I have had to interrupt blabbing male elders so the FN women in the room had a chance to speak and normally I found they were more concise and better thought out then the men who were to wrapped up in their ego.



Make no mistake, mysoginy (hope I spelled that right) is alive and well within every demographic. Its another dragon that needs slaying.


----------



## Xylric (5 Jun 2020)

My sister-in-law is Kenyan, and she has been quite vocal about letting the family know when she's had negative interactions. I will tell you, nothing will spark me to violence faster than seeing someone making a racist remark about my cute little 2 year old niece. The interesting thing is that most of the remarks I've been informed about aren't about the fact that sister-in-law and niece are black, but that it's a "shame" my brother married her. That infuriates me more than anyone can possibly know, because what most people don't know is that my grandfather's eldest sister was disowned by the family for marrying, of all possiblities, an _Englishman_. They love each other in as deep and abiding a fashion as my grandparents, and that's the only thing that matters.

It was interesting watching my brother introduce my sister-in-law to my grandparents when they first started dating, because my grandparents being who they were immediately treated her as part of the family. Their only concern was the education difference at the time - she was working on a Master's degree, and thus the question was whether or not my brother would be seeking to obtain one of his own (he is).

But the real core of this story is that my great-grandmother was sufficient of a racist that it was figured the best way to sort out my grandfather's "behavioural issues" (which ultimately proved to be the result of the fact that he, like me, was somewhere on the extreme high end of the autism spectrum) was to re-enroll him in a different school after he was essentially expelled unfairly for something that was never fully disclosed. Specifically, a school in which my grandfather was the only white student for the rest of his elementary career (about six years. This also means that he attended the same school as Dwayne Johnson's uncles). While this resulted in my grandfather having to physically defend himself on a daily basis for a period of at least three weeks, it also backfired tremendously, and ensured that my grandfather would never allow racist sentiment a place in his soul. And a half-dozen lifelong friendships.

This of course, also meant that he knocked the teeth out of a teacher in high school for making racist remarks about the girl he was taking to a dance, which again resulted in his expulsion and having to continue his education in New Brunswick. As this led to his being scouted for the hockey team at Acadia and a trip to a hockey tournament in Toronto, whereupon he mistakenly took the luggage of a girl visiting Canada from Michigan on a school trip, I have to admit that my grandfather's rather violent refusal to accept a racist way of thinking is directly responsible for my existence.

I obviously don't deny that racism and prejudice exists, but the simple fact of the matter is - you have to give people the choice to give it up themselves, you can't force it upon them.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jun 2020)

The solution to racism is no great secret, treat everyone the way you wish to be treated when you first meet them, let their actions and personality shape your opinion of them. Smile at people, say hello, hold doors open for them, ask questions about their heritage, learn some history. Don't feel bad for actions taken long in the past, they are not your fault or responsibility. You can acknowledge them without guilt. Racism will suffocate in a world of thousands of small gestures amongst ordinary people, openness to each other and respect to each other.


----------



## lenaitch (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> For example, a UVic study (not yet complete) has very recently gained some publicity: "Forthcoming research out of the University of Victoria's economics department finds that the introduction of collective bargaining produces somewhat higher compensation for police officers. It does not correlate with a reduction in total crime%u2014but it does eventually correlate with higher numbers of killings by police, especially of minorities."



I read the article and can't decide if it is anti-police or anti-union (I suppose if I knew more about the organization I'd know).  Their link to UVic is a twitter account form something called Cliometrics which according the Merriam-Webster is_ "the application of methods developed in other fields (such as economics, statistics, and data processing) to the study of history"_.  It apparently got its start back in the 1950s when it argued slavery was economically a good thing.  Police collective bargaining has been in place in Canada for years, so it should be no surprise that salaries have gone up.  So has minimum wage and the wages of sanitation workers.  Trying to argue that higher income results in increased violence against the public seems to attempt to relate correlation and causation.   By that argument, paying them minimum wage would result is law enforcement nirvana. 

Police and public sectors labour laws in the US are quite different than up here and I can't really comment on their power and influence down there.  It should come as no surprise to anyone that a member's union stepped in to defend them, be it police or bus drivers. That's what they do; represent the interests of their membership.  In Ontario and probably the rest of Canada, the union could be brought before the labour board for failing to fulfill its legal responsibility that the members pay dues for.  Having said that, I do have a problem when they champion the cause as opposed to simply representing the member.  In my employment life, I was a lower-level executive of a police association (union) for a time and saw too many instances of the Board defending egregious behavior rather than simply providing legal advice and support.  I found out that telling a member that 'I'm here to help and represent your interests but ya gotta know you screwed up big time and should take your lumps' is not apparently acceptable.


----------



## CBH99 (5 Jun 2020)

Agreed Colin.

I've never understood why racism is even a thing.  We don't judge other people by the pigment in their hair.  Yet some folks judge others for the pigment in their skin?

Having darker pigment in your hair isn't something anybody notices, but darker pigment of the skin makes someone less human than others?


Absurd.  I don't even understand how this ever became a 'thing' other than sheer collective ignorance, which somehow didn't die off as humans evolved.   ???


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Police collective bargaining has been in place in Canada for years, so it should be no surprise that salaries have gone up.  So has minimum wage and the wages of sanitation workers.



Maybe instead of some people saying, "I don't have it, so they shouldn't either." They could ask, "They have it – why don't I?" 

It's not a race to the bottom.


----------



## Xylric (5 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The solution to racism is no great secret, treat everyone the way you wish to be treated when you first meet them, let their actions and personality shape your opinion of them. Smile at people, say hello, hold doors open for them, ask questions about their heritage, learn some history. Don't feel bad for actions taken long in the past, they are not your fault or responsibility. You can acknowledge them without guilt. Racism will suffocate in a world of thousands of small gestures amongst ordinary people, openness to each other and respect to each other.



Quite. That's why my response to the "Black Lives Matter" statement is simply "Your Life Matters." It makes it far more personal, and takes it out of the abstract. How many black kids grow up with some level of an intrinsic fear of white people, and vice versa? How many of them develop anger simply out of the simple reality of it is present in their lives?

Anger I understand, same with fear, but cold and deliberate malice? I'm a human being, not a cat. I utterly refuse to play with unquenchable fire.

And yet by the refusal to hate, one can all too easily become hated, because one cannot be understood by those who live their lives with it as their companion.

A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was going through a dark period and was actively contemplating suicide. I made sure to contact the proper authorities at their university, with a very simple reason. I would rather see the friend alive and cursing my name until the day they died than to do nothing and leave them unaware how much of an impact they had on my life. As they said at the time, if I ever did something like that again, they would completely terminate our association. I still consider that an acceptable bargain.

If I am to be hated, let it be for decisions made and actions taken, rather than things which are mere description.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Jun 2020)

jacksparrow said:
			
		

> I'll say how convenient in your quest to make a point. Additionally, I'll ask why you and your crse mates didn't address it? Remember, we're told everyone is a leader, and it behoves us all to address matters like this. If you aren't speaking up, you're part of the problem.



So, you're saying I am making it up, it is not possible that happened.   :facepalm:  

It happened, in Wainwright, in 2003.  Or are you saying that is not possible, because he was FN and we were 'white males'?

Who said it wasn't addressed? WTF does that have to do with my point, which you're apparently trying hard to avoid/deny?


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jun 2020)

>I read the article and can't decide if it is anti-police or anti-union

"Reason" is a libertarian-oriented organization.  Libertarians vary in details, but share in common a preoccupation with individual liberties and civil rights.  Libertarians are typically anti- anything which happens to be bad for those two things.

The UVic guy is Rob Gillezeau.

There is no meaningful connection between the research - or the opinion piece - and 1950s arguments about the economic good of slavery.  Not sure why you thought that bit of irrelevant trivia merited mention.

Read properly, the part I quoted does not claim that increased killings correlate with increased compensation; it claims that both increased killings and increased compensation correlate with the introduction of collective bargaining.

Of course unions represent their members' interests.  The point is that if police unions are found to be an aggravating factor, the unions should be reformed if not removed.

Policing is supposed to be a profession, which among other things means it must serve a public good (and the public interest should always supercede the interests of the profession and its members), and should be self-regulating.  One thing I came across in another article (can't remember where) suggests, counter-intuitively (to me), that internal review and regulation works better than external review and regulation.

So another problem is how to balance the best regulation of the profession (which might be internally conducted) against the tendency of a union to try to capture any entity which regulates the profession (eg. a union naming the people it wants the membership to put on the board that oversees conduct) so that it can steamroll disciplinary processes.

One way is to simply remove unions; another is to make it impossible for them to interfere with professional discipline.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jun 2020)

Apparently many Canadians didn't know discrimination existed until last week.




			
				Justin Trudeau said:
			
		

> "Far too many Canadians feel fear and anxiety at the sight of a law enforcement officer," Trudeau told reporters in Ottawa. *"Over the past weeks we've seen a large number of Canadians suddenly awaken to the fact that discrimination is a lived reality for far too many of our fellow citizens.*



https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/trudeau-says-discrimination-by-canada-police-must-end-after-indigenous-woman-killed/ar-BB155RvJ


First the country is_ surprised_ by the state of Long Term Care facilities and now this bomb we've been suddenly awakened to.


----------



## lenaitch (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >I read the article and can't decide if it is anti-police or anti-union
> 
> "Reason" is a libertarian-oriented organization.  Libertarians vary in details, but share in common a preoccupation with individual liberties and civil rights.  Libertarians are typically anti- anything which happens to be bad for those two things.
> 
> ...



I mentioned the little factoid simply because I came across it while researching what the heck Cliometrics was.  I'm not sure representing and defending an individual employee against the power and resources of a large employer is considered an "aggregating factor" as opposed to more of a necessary evil.

Studies aside, internal regulation of the police has been seen part of the problem, not the solution.  Disciplinary hearings have to follow due process and the fact that members heads aren't on a spike at the palace gate for every single transgression doesn't not sit well with many groups.  The fact that somebody, facing loss of income or worse, should have skilled representation, is not interference.  If I show up at traffic court with a lawyer, I'm not interfering with the system, and that's only for points and fine.

Unions, associations or whatever we choose to call them - bargaining agents - aren't going anywhere soon; although I would be quite happy if they limited themselves to collective bargaining and protection of employee rights.  Some professional regulatory bodies might have union/association members on disciplinary bodies, but I am not familiar with them.  I can assure you it does not happen in law enforcement.  Discipline is the prerogative of management/command.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jun 2020)

Unions representing and protecting righteous members is not a problem.  Unions that have acquired the power to protect unrighteous members is a problem.  Where the power to protect abusive police from consequences exists, it must be removed.  Details are up to the employer (city, province) and the force.  People just want it done.  Judging by the tone on the streets, they don't want to hear excuses.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Unions that have acquired the power to protect unrighteous members is a problem.



I was in the same local just shy of 37 years. The way it worked was if the department and the union could not come to an agreement, it went to binding arbitrator.

The decision of the arbitrator was final, and that was that. 

The union doesn't always make a grievance. They'll send a rep to hold your hand. But, that's it.


----------



## Furniture (5 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Discipline is the prerogative of management/command.



It should also be public. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done. 

People lose faith when they hear Officer X was "disciplined", but the punishment is an "internal" matter. To Joe/Jane public that sounds a lot like, Officer X got a scolding(possibly stern), and is back on the job. 

Police, and the military tend to circle the wagons, and try to protect the institution. In the end it erodes the public's faith in the very institutions that are there to protect it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2020)

Edit - Switching threads


----------



## lenaitch (6 Jun 2020)

Furniture said:
			
		

> It should also be public. Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done.
> 
> People lose faith when they hear Officer X was "disciplined", but the punishment is an "internal" matter. To Joe/Jane public that sounds a lot like, Officer X got a scolding(possibly stern), and is back on the job.
> 
> Police, and the military tend to circle the wagons, and try to protect the institution. In the end it erodes the public's faith in the very institutions that are there to protect it.



At the end of the day, discipline is an employer-employee relations matter, notwithstanding that it is a police officer, member of the military or Walmart employee.  That is why they are adjudicated by a representative of the employer, not the State.  Under the Police Services Act (Ontario), there is a Code of Offences that, if found in violation, a member can receive a letter of censure on file all the way up to an ordered dismissal.  Matters can be resolved informally or all the way up to a hearing.  Hearings are open to the public. Serious matters often accompany a Criminal Code charge (or sometimes the appropriate provincial statute such as the Highway Traffic Act).  Those, of course, are open to the public as well.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Jun 2020)

Walmart employees are not entrusted with weapons nor appointed as peace officers.  And CAF disciplinary records are available to the public - court martial findings are posted, and summary trials results can be requested as well.  If it's feasible for the CAF, why not for police forces?

Disciplinary actions for peace officers and public officers should be matters of public record.

Don't like it?  Don't be one.  But if you want a salary paid by the public, your conduct and related sanctions should be matters of public record.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> can receive a letter of censure on file all the way up to an ordered dismissal.


And how often do ordered dismissals happen?

*Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension*
_Const. Ioan-Florin Floria, who has been off the job since he was nabbed in a big drug sweep in 2007, earned over $300,000 in salary over the past three years and has been taking home a regular paycheque for the past 12 years, without even clocking in for a shift.

Floria is one of 20 Toronto police officers currently on paid suspension, according to data obtained by CityNews through a Freedom of Information request.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/05/06/exclusive-toronto-officer-suspension/_


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> And how often do ordered dismissals happen?
> 
> *Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension*
> _Const. Ioan-Florin Floria, who has been off the job since he was nabbed in a big drug sweep in 2007, earned over $300,000 in salary over the past three years and has been taking home a regular paycheque for the past 12 years, without even clocking in for a shift.
> ...


_

 Now that’s a union !!_


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Jun 2020)

Now thats pathetic wimpy management that must (a) be incompetent, (b) shown him where the bodies are buried, (c) did something stupid.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Toronto cop earned $1M over 12 year suspension



At least they found out about it.

Another one of those "wellness checks" we were discussing,



> Rose called 911 hoping paramedics would help the 69-year-old, but Toronto Emergency Medical Service first botched the call, then lied to Rose saying they had checked his friend out and the man was fine.
> 
> Logan’s treatment by Toronto’s Emergency Medical Service (EMS) is one of 829 complaints the publicly funded agency received over the last three years.
> 
> ...



"Never, NEVER, admit the department has done anything wrong!"


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jun 2020)

Black UCP minister snubbed at Edmonton anti-racism rally

https://thenationaltelegraph.com/regional/black-ucp-minister-snubbed-at-edmonton-anti-racism-rally


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2020)

In a way, I wish he would have went, tried to speak to see what they would have done.  Freedom of speech and all that...


----------



## Kat Stevens (7 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Black UCP minister snubbed at Edmonton anti-racism rally
> 
> https://thenationaltelegraph.com/regional/black-ucp-minister-snubbed-at-edmonton-anti-racism-rally



"Sorry Minister, but you're just not _our sort_ of black."


----------



## brihard (7 Jun 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now thats pathetic wimpy management that must (a) be incompetent, (b) shown him where the bodies are buried, (c) did something stupid.



Appears he was acquitted of all criminal code charges after a very lengthy judicial process, and now the Police Services Act charges are also dragging out. The law stipulates only that he’s suspended with pay through this period.

Presumption of innocence being what it is, the issue here seems to be more with the speed of the various legal proceedings than anything.


----------



## Quirky (8 Jun 2020)

National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds. 

Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:


----------



## mariomike (8 Jun 2020)

Politics aside, I remember a little street level initiative.

We were frequently sent into Metro housing projects. 

A friend of mine, Rick Boustead RIP, took it upon himself to meet with some residents of one particular project about what we could do to perhaps ease the tensions a little bit. 

Rick's solution was to start a Children’s Breakfast Club in that project.

That was back in 1984. Now, there's over 20 Children's Breakfast Clubs in Metro Housing projects. But, Rick's was the first. 

I know a Children's Breakfast Club may not make a dramatic difference with community relations and emergency services. 

But, it was nice to see the smiles when we served the kids a hot, nutritious breakfast before the left for school.

It's still there!
https://breakfastclubs.ca/our-club/#1569440608393-b56f16ba-2770


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.
> 
> Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:



Watch them try to wrap their heads around been told about the suppression of the Cantonese culture and language by Beijing and it's impacts on Canada. Or that supporting the hereditary chiefs of the FN's limits FN woman's rights and their ability to claim leadership roles. Ask them, is it racist to be opposed to FGM? If a Chinese person insults a black person will it be reported as openly as a Caucasian doing the same? If a FN person insults/heckles a person with half blood or won't let their kids date someone of mixed blood ask them if that racism as well and what they want to do about it. 

For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. The don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.


----------



## Ralph (8 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.
> 
> Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:


I see whiny people too.


----------



## blacktriangle (8 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. They don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.



Absolutely correct.


----------



## Xylric (8 Jun 2020)

Perhaps the thing that most troubles me about this subject is the tendancy to dismiss the expert when what that expert has to say challenges the dominant narrative. The focus of one of my major anthropology research projects deals with a period of prehistory in which there was no such thing as race (unless you're talking about our species of human and interactions with others - such as Neanderthal), for example. I have made some very honest inquiring statements on a forum not unlike this one based on this particular foundation, and the general reaction I got was "You're a white male. Shut the *#$! up, and let others speak." I could agree with that if I was actually dismissing things, but that's the problem - I wasn't.

The statements I was making was along the lines of pointing out that racism is actually a _superficial symptom_ of the issues at hand- this, I think, can be easily proven. I would think that someone who has been building a model dealing with the evolution and extinction of complex societies would be a welcome voice in discussing matters such as current events, but apparently not. Because of a descriptive quality of the person making the point, the point itself is dismissed as tainted. I can only conclude that the greater the weight put on the labels one could attach to the voice giving information, the less meaning that information will actually _have_ to the substance of the conversation.

There's a significant soft seduction of a quick and easy display of power at play here, and if you may recall what Yoda said about the Dark Side with that particular phrasing.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (8 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> National news networks have been constantly reminding us how racist we all are on a daily basis, because obviously COVID isn't trendy anymore and it's gone away. Out of all the talking heads and think-tanks they provide, none have signalled any thoughts or ideas towards how to fix this issue. All I see are protesters and whiny people holding signs and marching down streets, how this will fix racism I don't know. Being more aware of issues won't change people's minds.
> 
> Can't we all just get back to work already??  :waiting:



And that, *right there*, is the issue.

If one can be increasingly exposed to the multitude of pain, frustration, viewpoints, sincere communication (when it applies, obviously), and listen to the description of someone’s existence through their lens rather than one’s own, and feel not even the slightest shift in their own perceptions and/or the ability to be able to apply the fact that everyone’s reality is individual and shaped through any number of experiences, genetics, environment, etc., then it’s no wonder these same cycles reoccur. If minimal coverage of contentious societal matters doesn’t result in changes where required, then what is there left to do? The answer is obvious.

If one is feeling personally attacked by what’s predominantly being displayed on news cycles at any given time, then it’s a clear indication that there’s truth to the message being sent for that individual.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jun 2020)

People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.


----------



## Xylric (8 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.



Tens of thousands. Co-operation across groups, without adverse triggers, is what I consider the most notable feature of our species. The fact that we are able to compete at the same time we co-operate is something I would love to explain to extraterrestrial xenographers.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (8 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> People fight for things, and if you don't want to fight over everything with everybody, you need to figure out ways to distinguish in- and out-group.  We inherited thousands of years of that.



Side note, as I don’t want to derail: I agree, but I’d be interested in you elaborating on any possible ideas you might have wrt “...figure out ways to distinguish...”, and how that may relate to conflict. You’re referring to in/out groups in terms of soc./psychology definitions, correct? The very distinguishing of groups which one prefers to be associated with (or identifies with) is often at the root of conflict. I don’t know that there will ever be any way to successfully lessen societal contentions if we insist on clear distinctions between groups. But at the same time, it’s those distinct groups that help offer us our sense of community, and also with which we feel most closely intertwined; they help form our identities. 

Leaning towards the neurological/neuro-science end of things as oppose to the social psychology end, I came across this article and found it interesting. It loosely touches on some primary reasons for why any degree of resolution may be innately difficult for most of us regardless of the nature of the situation. It led to some other interesting reads, but this was the starting point—good introduction.

 https://www.mediate.com/articles/noll9.cfm


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2020)

Repost from an earlier link in the US thread. 
Edmonton police officer last year.

https://streamable.com/hna3mn

What would happen to a Canadian soldier deployed overseas who was caught on video doing this to a detainee?
What would happen to a Canadian soldier caught doing this to a G7 protestor?


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2020)

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/man-in-custody-after-shocking-attack-on-toronto-police-officer

Video from May 5th in Toronto. Black man is smashing out windows in a cop car then chases the white female officer around.

At first glance I probably would have shot him. She didn't and probably saved his life and maybe a bunch of drama.

I hope police don't put themselves at undue risk because they're afraid of their police departments not having their back or getting vilified in the news.


----------



## Quirky (9 Jun 2020)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> And that, *right there*, is the issue.
> 
> If one can be increasingly exposed to the multitude of pain, frustration, viewpoints, sincere communication (when it applies, obviously), and listen to the description of someone’s existence through their lens rather than one’s own, and feel not even the slightest shift in their own perceptions and/or the ability to be able to apply the fact that everyone’s reality is individual and shaped through any number of experiences, genetics, environment, etc., then it’s no wonder these same cycles reoccur. If minimal coverage of contentious societal matters doesn’t result in changes where required, then what is there left to do? The answer is obvious.
> 
> If one is feeling personally attacked by what’s predominantly being displayed on news cycles at any given time, then it’s a clear indication that there’s truth to the message being sent for that individual.



The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Jun 2020)

>...figure out ways to distinguish...

Skin colour.  Cultural markings and apparel.  Ways of speaking.  Whenever resources are scarce there is competition, so there must be a way to distinguish "us" from "them", and the easily obvious boundaries will be exploited.  Most people are almost as smart as animals and will not fight for the sake of fighting - too risky.  Competition for resources, or even admissions to Harvard, is the root of most evil.  When people feel security slipping away, the mask will drop.


----------



## Xylric (9 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >...figure out ways to distinguish...
> 
> Skin colour.  Cultural markings and apparel.  Ways of speaking.  Whenever resources are scarce there is competition, so there must be a way to distinguish "us" from "them", and the easily obvious boundaries will be exploited.  Most people are almost as smart as animals and will not fight for the sake of fighting - too risky.  Competition for resources, or even admissions to Harvard, is the root of most evil.  When people feel security slipping away, the mask will drop.



Civilization is always, unfortunately, going to be little more than a polite fiction, or, if you're feeling optimistic, a species-wide mutual delusion. There's a quote that I love from Star Trek DS9:



			
				Quark said:
			
		

> "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts... deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers... put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time... and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes..."



There are reasons why certain social, political, and yes, religious groups and ideologies ultimately turn cannibalistic, and the biggest is very, very simple - once you define immutable boundries, those boundaries will inevitably run into the reality of life. As life keeps growing, regardless of any petty human rules, it goes without saying that those same groups which don't do the intelligent thing and admit error will inevitably start to prune the group so that everything fits within the boundry - often violently.

The distinguishing descriptive characteristics are ultimately harmless on their own, but you're absolutely correct that the most obvious boundaries are the easiest to exploit. It does often seem to me like the problems are magnified simply because not everyone grasps that descriptions of an object are not definitions of the object. Ceci n'est pas une pipe.


----------



## quadrapiper (9 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> For the Antifa and certain other groups, racism is a purely a tool to beat the establishment and the majority into submission with. The don't care about complex issues or complex solutions.


Of course, Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.


----------



## Ironman118 (9 Jun 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Of course, Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.



A distinguishable uniform, matching arm bands, burning books, beating you and threatening you if you have a differing opinion.. includes both fascists and, ironically, the antifa.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (9 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?



Where’s the line between what you’re saying and denying someone their ethnicity/heritage? The very reason many feel unacknowledged as equals (either strictly with caucasian society, or the predominant population of where they reside as geography applies) is because of those who refuse to accept that they _should_ be equal and _won’t_ acknowledge that ethnicity shouldn’t be an issue. Not adequately discussing or managing inter-societal complexities doesn’t make them go away. Which is also why seemingly past wounds of historical events resurface.

It’s easy for one who’s never experienced years/decades/generations of side-lining, discrimination, de-humanizing, double-standards, etc. etc. to essentially say, “Get over it already, time to let go and move forward.”, which is the attitude that many retain. That very mentality is at the root of why so many others can’t move forward in their respective growth, because they’ve faced that flippant approach from society wrt traumatic events that, quite literally, altered their DNA. (A quick google search brings up research articles about the correlation between prolonged exposure to trauma and cell-development, which can then be passed through human development.) 

As humans, an integral part of healing and being able to release and move forward is the full acknowledgement and continued support (not speaking strictly monetarily) from those surrounding us. When that isn’t maintained consistently, which—let’s face, it hasn’t been—then the marginalized person(s) are left stuck to deal with the fall-out from the past. Additionally, because of the complexities of human nature and development, we all require differing levels of varying types of assistance when attempting to address abuses. 

Several forget (or dismiss) the sheer magnitude of physical and psychological effort required from all sides, and the intricacies of both when tackling instances of (often long-lived) societal problems. Additionally, despite what it may look like to outsiders, the majority of those affected by the types of matters we’re discussing aren’t actively choosing to remain where they are—to accept their lot in life, as it were. The problem is that many haven’t been given, or don’t know how to apply the tools necessary to change their circumstances. That’s why social programs and genuine assistance is needed. (Yes, unfortunately, there are those who don’t use the resources provided for good, but that’s a bit of a tangent.)


----------



## mariomike (9 Jun 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Antifa as an identifiable agglomeration came about because of a rather simple issue: swastika'd neo-Nazis, KKK, et al cutting about like they owned the place in the US.



https://www.google.com/search?q=swastika+charlottesville&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjI1-aZ0fTpAhUO3KwKHU_MDFMQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=swastika+charlottesville&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoGCAAQBxAeOggIABAHEAUQHlD7VVirbGDTb2gAcAB4AIABgAGIAaMGkgEDNS4zmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=LXPfXoiNIY64swXPmLOYBQ&bih=641&biw=1280


To the best of my knowledge, ( someone please correct me if I am wrong ) the swastika has not been paraded in the streets of Toronto since 16 August 1933 .

Our local anti-fascists saw to it that was the first, and last time.


----------



## Remius (9 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> The issue with all these protests, billboards and hashtags is that everyone is yelling, but no one is listening. Want to know how to stop racism? Stop talking about it! Stop referring to people by their race. Enough of the differential treatment of our First Nations, we are still living in the past. How much longer must the reparations and reconciliation go on? When will it be enough?



I don’t know.  How long have they been marginalized, abused and treated differently?  Would a couple of of hundred years do?  

The truth is that reconciliation as a concept has only been around since 2012.  How about we give it the effort it merits. 

Ignoring racism is probably one of the worst courses of action. Seems like a cop out sort of plan.


----------



## QV (9 Jun 2020)

Ironman118 said:
			
		

> A distinguishable uniform, matching arm bands, burning books, beating you and threatening you if you have a differing opinion.. includes both fascists and, ironically, the antifa.



Antifa is anti fascist like North Korea is a democratic republic like today’s LPC is classical liberal.


----------



## Quirky (9 Jun 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> I don’t know.  How long have they been marginalized, abused and treated differently?  Would a couple of of hundred years do?



Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.


----------



## Remius (9 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.



I don’t disagree with much of that but many of them I am sure have no interest in wanting to integrate unless it’s on their terms.

Here is how the Govt sees it.

https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1400782178444/1529183710887

Here’s a good summation I think.

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/what-reconciliation-is-and-what-it-is-not

All of this is more than just a word.  But as indicated, it is complex.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2020)

Fascism. 
Characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy.

Bad news for sure.


----------



## X Royal (9 Jun 2020)

Social media easily shows we do have racial problems here in Canada and the Forces are not exempt.
I've seen comments from some I've served with that would have never have been openly stated within the service.
But as they are no longer serving they lay on the racist comments.
In no way am I saying it's common but yes we have had our share of racists over the years in both Canada and the Forces.
And not for a second do I think it's completely vanished.


----------



## mariomike (9 Jun 2020)

X Royal said:
			
		

> And not for a second do I think it's completely vanished.



No. But, times change. Not sure if people do.

Back in 1972, fresh out of school, I came under the watchful eyes of the "46'ers". Men who had come home from the war.

I have nothing but the highest admiration for them, and it saddened me greatly as I went to their funerals. 

Each passing generation was better educated. Did their private attitudes change over the years. Who knows?

But, the words that came out of their mouths became much more "filtered" with the passing of time.


----------



## Xylric (10 Jun 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> No. But, times change. Not sure if people do.
> 
> Back in 1972, fresh out of school, I came under the watchful eyes of the "46'ers". Men who had come home from the war.
> 
> ...



One of my mentors (whom was a major reference in my DEO application) just had his 70th birthday.

One of the most interesting things he told me was something that he happened to witness. While serving in a field hospital during his time in the USAF, he was witness to a racist's epiphany. This fellow was the great-grandson of a Confederate Officer, and had been raised on the whole "dirty blood" tripe. He gave it up instantly the first moment he had to treat a black soldier simply due to the fact that the sight of this wounded man's blood being the same colour as his own put the lie to everything he had been raised to believe about race. Apparently, after he got back to the States, this former racist went to university, met a girl, and brought his family out of the dark ages by marrying her. Not because she was black, but because he was happy.

People change, but it often takes a clue-by-four. Even then, it's woefully uncommon. I had a hard time believing the story, until photographic evidence was provided to me.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> One of my mentors (whom was a major reference in my DEO application) just had his 70th birthday.
> 
> One of the most interesting things he told me was something that he happened to witness. While serving in a field hospital during his time in the USAF, he was witness to a racist's epiphany. This fellow was the great-grandson of a Confederate Officer, and had been raised on the whole "dirty blood" tripe. He gave it up instantly the first moment he had to treat a black soldier simply due to the fact that the sight of this wounded man's blood being the same colour as his own put the lie to everything he had been raised to believe about race. Apparently, after he got back to the States, this former racist went to university, met a girl, and brought his family out of the dark ages by marrying her. Not because she was black, but because he was happy.
> 
> People change, but it often takes a clue-by-four. Even then, it's woefully uncommon. I had a hard time believing the story, until photographic evidence was provided to me.



In order for people to change - willingly - they usually need to undergo a Significant Emotional Event that shifts the attitude.


----------



## Xylric (10 Jun 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> In order for people to change - willingly - they usually need to undergo a Significant Emotional Event that shifts the attitude.



Exactly! Hence why I like the term "Clue-by-four." It's just as harsh a blow as an SEE.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Invoking something racist like the Indian Act isn't helping either.  Integration within Canadian society is ultimately the end goal, I hope. The reserve system is obviously not working for anyone, the days of them living off their traditional lands is long gone. Being completely reliant on the government in isolated communities is not financially sustainable for the FN communities and doesn't help them move forward. Reconciliation is just a word at this point, they haven't indicated what that means.



Everyone knows the Indian Act needs changing, the problem is what replaces it? Whatever does replace it will likely not make the indigenous people happy or the general public. It will likley spell the end of the political career of the politician that spearheads it and will be vilified by both sides later on. The issue is so large our media is incapable of grasping it and will fan the flames either wilfully or in ignorance. The media currently is incapable of honestly talking about racism. In their messaging racism is only white vs anyone else. When in actual fact thanks to our multi-cultural society, you have many visible minorities displaying racism against other groups. Most of the journalists have little grasp of history or interest in it and/or are afraid to say more for fear of losing job/status/friends/access.

Guilting a chunk of people for the action of their forefathers is counterproductive in the long run, eventually people will have enough of that and will entrench a them vs us attitude, because there is no "winning" with the people slinging crap at them. Nothing the whites do will ever be enough for the people trying to keep the issue alive. You want to defeat "racisim", then teach your kids to treat everyone with respect when they first meet them, teach them history without guilt and get people to together to talk about their family histories. Racism can be reduced to a minor issue by thousands of small acts of kindness everyday. It will never go away, but it can be uncommon.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jun 2020)

So this is a part of the problem IMO.

The RCMP and other police are getting lumped in with the racism conversation in Canada. Why? Well there's a lot of stories of people of colour and the RCMP not jiving very well and the writ large beliefs are that there's systemic racism in our police force. 

#1
RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki. Assumed office April 16, 2018, she probably has a bit of time in under her belt before that.

Despite being on the job for a couple years now, 2 days ago she "struggled with the definitions of systemic racism". People respond with a heart felt _what the fuck?_ and 2 days later she "knows that systemic racism is part of every institution, the RCMP included".

[ https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/brenda-lucki-systemic-racism-rcmp-1.5610355 ]

So until now she didn't know what systemic racism meant but a little Twitter backlash and problem solved. Now she knows.

Really? The RCMP commissioner didn't know what systemic racism was? Despite, I'm guessing, presiding over a whole bunch of police complaints with people of colour? She didn't think to maybe figure it out before 12 Jun 2020?

#2
RCMP's top officer in Alberta, Deputy Commissioner Curtis Zablocki, says he “doesn't believe that racism is systemic through Canadian policing, I don’t believe it’s systemic through policing in Alberta.”  Twitter backlash, presto chango and all of a sudden he's "walking back his comments."
[ https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/albertas-top-rcmp-officer-admits-systemic-racism-exists-as-lawyers-group-calls-for-his-resignation/ar-BB15pwoo ]



> On Friday, Zablocki said he has since had conversations with community and Indigenous leaders, colleagues and other police chiefs as well as researched what systemic racism is and has changed his mind.
> 
> “Much of that conversation has centred on racism, how it’s defined and what it means to those affected,” Zablocki said. “These have been conversations that have challenged my perceptions and made it clear that systemic racism does exist in the RCMP.”



Like, really? June 12th 2020, same story. All of a sudden he has an epiphany?  All this time he believed believed the wrong thing but now he knows better, like it's the first he's been exposed to this train of thought?

Why is the RCMP waiting until June 2020 to figure out what racism means?


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Jun 2020)

If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki. Tolerated racism in an organization like the RCMP (or CAF or DND) is a leadership failure and those who tolerate/do nothing in leadership positions to affect change should be held to account.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Jun 2020)

At least with systemic racism we can identify exactly where it is and what it is, and take concrete measures to remove it.


----------



## CBH99 (13 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So this is a part of the problem IMO.
> 
> The RCMP and other police are getting lumped in with the racism conversation in Canada. Why? Well there's a lot of stories of people of colour and the RCMP not jiving very well and the writ large beliefs are that there's systemic racism in our police force.
> 
> ...




For the record, I agree with you 110%.


I'm going to play devil's advocate here just for a moment -- not in their defense per-se, but maybe being in the positions they are in, they are looking at the situation from a different viewpoint.

Both of these individuals are senior 'managers' (I hate that word when it comes to anything involving public safety...we need leaders, not managers) -- and as such, are given reports and statistics prepared for them by their organizations/divisions.



During the recruiting process, during depot, a variety of mandatory courses - we do everything we can do stomp our racism, encourage diversity, etc etc.  The organization, as they view it, is 'not a racist organization', and while some members may have a bias, the majority of the rank & file are not racist.  Fair enough.

However, the reality on the ground is always different than what one reads in a sanitized report.  Viewpoints can be quite different.  

Members of a police organization & members of the public can view the same situation from very different perspectives, especially if you have predominantly white police officers providing policing services on a native reserve with a high crime rate/drug usage/domestic violence.



I work with a lot of police officers, and I don't know ANY that are genuinely racist.  Sometimes it's easy for people to view an interaction as racist, even if it isn't, just because of the colour dynamics between the officer and the subject.


**That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2020)

I bet if it was a white guy that challenged the cop by getting into a fighting stance, he would have been taken down earlier. I watched the video, despite being outnumbered at the scene, he tried to keep things from getting out of hand, in fact I was highly impressed by the first officers efforts despite clear attempts by the individual to start a fight. The video ran for 6 minutes before the other cop showed just as Cop #1 tried to restrain the individual, causing cop #2 to leap to his aid with likley more than required force. Had cop #2 been there earlier, likley he would not have used that much force. At the end of the day, I bet the Chiefs lawyer is going to tell him to plead as the video does him little favour.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (13 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> **That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:



If you watch the entire video (not just the short clips most news organizations are showing), you will see the Chief start out immediately aggressive, yelling, refusing to comply with direction, getting in and out of a vehicle multiple times (which can be a reason to shoot someone dead due to what happened to Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, watch the video if you want to see how some of modern police doctrine has been created), taking up fighting stances, interfering with a arrest, and assaulting a police officer. 

I doubt if they pulled over a Asian person it would have gone down that way either, because odds are the Asian person isn't some power crazed chief who believes they are above the law and can go and fight the police. 

Did cop #2 use a bit more force than necessary? Yeah he likely did. Did I think it was overtly excessive considering the circumstances? Not particularly.


----------



## Halifax Tar (13 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> **That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:



Only if the beating was racially motivated.  Why cant cops just be @22holes like everyong else ?  Sometimes people are just d!cks.


----------



## GAP (13 Jun 2020)

From the video the chief came flying out of the passenger side of the vehicle seeming to be loudly mouthing off, in an aggressive manner the first cop caught his arm and restrained him. the second cop hit him high to do a takedown. I see nothing racist about those actions against an angry aggressive person confronting the cops.

 :2c:


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## Jarnhamar (13 Jun 2020)

Sorry for all the venting I've been doing about this stuff I'll simmer down.  I don't mean to come across as anti-cop or anti-law enforcement if I am. I don't like bullies or people being treated unfairly whether it's police, the courts, the CAF and so on.



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki. Tolerated racism in an organization like the RCMP (or CAF or DND) is a leadership failure and those who tolerate/do nothing in leadership positions to affect change should be held to account.



That's what I was trying to say in my probably over the top snarky post above. 




			
				CBH99]]

[u]For the record said:
			
		

> I bet if it was a white guy that challenged the cop by getting into a fighting stance, he would have been taken down earlier. I watched the video, despite being outnumbered at the scene, he tried to keep things from getting out of hand, in fact I was highly impressed by the first officers efforts despite clear attempts by the individual to start a fight. The video ran for 6 minutes before the other cop showed just as Cop #1 tried to restrain the individual, causing cop #2 to leap to his aid with likely more than required force. Had cop #2 been there earlier, likley he would not have used that much force. At the end of the day, I bet the Chiefs lawyer is going to tell him to plead as the video does him little favor.



Agree 100%. The video hardly does the chief any favors, he was clearly looking for a fight.  And I agree if it was a white guy he would have been dropped a lot quicker.


Will cops have to overly worry about optics and possibly feel like they need to handle different races differently? Maybe expose themselves to greater risks and dangers because they don't want to deal with the media?


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Jun 2020)

I, through some but not all fault of my own, have had several to quite a few interactions with cops. Some have treated me with respect and politeness, some have been less than respectful and polite, and some have put me in bracelets, most wuffly.  Every one of those reactions has been 100% in response to my actions. I didn't end up in cuffs with a knee in my back because I was or wasn't a certain ethnicity, it's because I was being an asshole and deserved it.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Will cops have to overly worry about optics and possibly feel like they need to handle different races differently? Maybe expose themselves to greater risks and dangers because they don't want to deal with the media?



If it goes that way, we'll actually create systemic racism instead of fixing it. The problem is that we automatically jump to worse case scenario of "racist power-tripping cop" instead of actually letting SIU/Civilian Complains Commission do their jobs and investigate. If the incident is racial motivated, badges should be pulled. A lot of these incidents look more like terrible training/certification processes than actual racially motivated assaults.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (13 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> **That being said, beating up a Chief over an expired license plate seems racist.  If they pulled over an Asian person with an expired plate, for example, I doubt it would have gone down that way after watching the video  :2c:



Did you watch the whole video?

Because if you watch from the beginning, the chief is berating the the first officer, takes off his jacket and angrily throws it to the ground and challenges the officer to fight, taking up a clear fighting stance. He repeatedly tried to provoke the officer and threatens him, ignores requests to calm down, and gets in-and-out of the vehicle a couple times. It's only after several minutes of this nonsense that the second officer arrives obscene and tackles are chief who then continues his aggressive and violent antics, thrashing around and actively resisting as the officers attempt to put handcuffs on him.

In my experience as a defence lawyer who's reviewed hundreds of arrests, if a white guy was that aggressive with an officer he would have been taken down a lot earlier and a lot harder.

The chief didn't get beaten up over an expired plate, he got beaten up because he wanted to fight the police and after several minutes of attempted de-escalation, he got what he was demanding.


----------



## Remius (13 Jun 2020)

How many times has he been pulled over.  Or harassed or whatever.  How long before someone finally snaps.

That being said, the video on its own does not seem to paint the whole picture.  To be honest the Chief looked like he was asking for it with his aggressive posture and behaviour.

One has to wonder why things escalate the way they do over trivial things like an expired plate.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (13 Jun 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> How many times has he been pulled over.  Or harassed or whatever.  How long before someone finally snaps.



No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> That being said, the video on its own does not seem to paint the whole picture.  To be honest the Chief looked like he was asking for it with his aggressive posture and behaviour.



I'd say more than "looks like" and, would say "he actually did ask for it". You can hear him yell at the officer “You and I are going to have a f---ing problem, right here and right f---ing now.”

He takes off his jacket and throws it to the ground and takes up a clear fighting stance with fists clenched:









			
				Remius said:
			
		

> One has to wonder why things escalate the way they do over trivial things like an expired plate.



In this case it happened because Chief Adam got immediately pissed off and confrontational over being pulled over for having an expired plate. Any one of us here would be pulled over if we were driving with plates that expired 10 months ago too.

As for why he got so angry over being subjected to the same treatment any one else would receive for driving with plates expired 10 months ago, maybe he has a history with this officer or the police in general. Maybe  he hates police. Maybe he's been abused by police in the past. This is stuff that can't be determined by people on the internet. It might be determined in a trial, but that said, having a bad history with police doesn't necessarily justify being aggressive and challenging them to fight. The main point is that this video in and of itself does not show police racism IMO.

I've seen many traffic stops escalate and usually its because the people involved get enraged because they feel they shouldn't have to follow the laws everyone else does, or, getting really angry and aggressive has worked for them many times in the past to get out of trouble (because most people don't want to deal with that stuff and retreat) so they go to their tried-and-true method of avoiding trouble.


----------



## Remius (13 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?



Not saying the stop wasn’t legit.  But when you have certain racial groups that feel that the police unfairly target them, any stop, legit or not could set them off.  The straw that breaks the camel’s back?

The question should be why certain groups feel unfairly targeted.   Are they?  If so then why?

But I can only go on what that video shows.  like I said, it looks like he was asking for it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> No one even alleges that the stop was invalid. People get pulled over all the time for driving with an expired license plate, and issued a traffic ticket. Given that apparently his plate had been expired for ten months, it's reasonable to believe that he's been pulled over a number of times for the expired plate which he had declined to renew like the rest of us do. How is it harassment if the police are enforcing the law same as they would enforce it on anyone else?
> 
> I'd say more than "looks like" and, would say "he actually did ask for it". You can hear him yell at the officer “You and I are going to have a f---ing problem, right here and right f---ing now.”
> 
> ...



Thank you. I was about to post that maybe the coffee pot was broken, the pork chops were overcooked, or 7-11 was out of lime slurpees. So what? Choose the hill you want to die on.  You said it way better.


----------



## Remius (13 Jun 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Thank you. I was about to post that maybe the coffee pot was broken, the pork chops were overcooked, or 7-11 was out of lime slurpees. So what? Choose the hill you want to die on.  You said it way better.



Or maybe he spent his whole life the victim of racism?  Maybe he’s been pulled over a hundred times for no reason.  I realise that might not be as serious at burned pork chops or a shortage of slurpees to some, but people around the world are upset for a reason. 

And some can only get pushed so far.  

But as you’ve stated, you are still responsible for your own actions.  I can agree with that.


----------



## Quirky (13 Jun 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> The question should be why certain groups feel unfairly targeted.



Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified? People are ultimately idiots, as a whole, and feel the need to act like a-holes towards law enforcement. Don’t be a prick if you are pulled over and you won’t get drama. People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it, in some form or another. Just be nice, because you’ll never win the argument and if you end up 6 feet under it’s likely your fault for escalating.


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Jun 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> Or maybe he spent his whole life the victim of racism?  Maybe he’s been pulled over a hundred times for no reason.  I realise that might not be as serious at burned pork chops or a shortage of slurpees to some, but people around the world are upset for a reason.
> 
> And some can only get pushed so far.
> 
> But as you’ve stated, you are still responsible for your own actions.  I can agree with that.



So either you, I, both of us, or neither of us may be right. That's what maybe is worth, slightly more than what if.


----------



## mariomike (13 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified? People are ultimately idiots, as a whole, and feel the need to act like a-holes towards law enforcement. Don’t be a prick if you are pulled over and you won’t get drama. People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it, in some form or another. Just be nice, because you’ll never win the argument and if you end up 6 feet under it’s likely your fault for escalating.



"People who get a baton to the teeth normally deserve it"

I haven't been to police academy. Is that part of the training in Canada?


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Does it matter? If a certain group in whatever region is statistically more likely to commit a crime, is more scrutiny not justified?



Here's the problem: I'm not a cop or lawyer, but I'm pretty sure being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.


----------



## MilEME09 (13 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Here's the problem: I'm not a cop or lawyer, but I'm pretty sure being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.



Not to mention it does not look at socio-economic issues affecting said groups, crime is sometimes a matter of survival for some, community out reach programs, etc have limited reach with limited funds. When looking at a demographic that may be more likely to commit crime we should and need to look at the underlying causes and address them.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (13 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ... being part of a certain race which may or may not have a statistically higher probability of committing a crime does not mean the cop has probable cause to stop/detain someone. That's why carding is such a contentious tactic.



Agreed and also correct in law. Racial profiling is expressly prohibited as a reason for stopping/detaining people in Canada.

But that's not what happened here. Chief Adam was legitimately stopped because his license plate had been expired for 10 months. That's not stopping someone because of their demographics, it's stopping them because they're breaking the law and anyone in Canada driving with a plate that long expired would get pulled over and ticketed if the police saw them.

A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).


----------



## Kat Stevens (13 Jun 2020)

I got a $120, if I’m remembering it right, ticket in St Albert for having an obscured plate more than 24 hours after it stopped snowing. Didn’t even have to get out of the truck.


----------



## Remius (13 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).



Happened to me too a few years ago.  Got a warning.  But not once did I think I was being stopped for the colour of my skin.  Like your friend I’m “100%” white.  not sure some visible minority groups feel the same way though when they see the flashing lights pulling them over.


----------



## brihard (13 Jun 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Agreed and also correct in law. Racial profiling is expressly prohibited as a reason for stopping/detaining people in Canada.
> 
> But that's not what happened here. Chief Adam was legitimately stopped because his license plate had been expired for 10 months. That's not stopping someone because of their demographics, it's stopping them because they're breaking the law and anyone in Canada driving with a plate that long expired would get pulled over and ticketed if the police saw them.
> 
> A 100% white friend of mine was in fact pulled over and ticketed for driving while her plate had been expired for one week not too long ago (shortly before the lockdowns).



Chief Adam was not stopped for having expired registration. Chief Adam wasn’t stopped at all. His wife was behind the wheel of a running vehicle with expired tags and he chose to involve himself and obstruct a completely lawful and benign traffic stop. His subsequent behaviours could have been a use of force training video on a subject showing threat cues. Make sure you watch the full twelve minute version, not the four or five minute edit.

Running license plates and doing stops for expired tags is utterly routine and very common. We get lots of stuff that way- expired tags get you to the window to check license, registration, insurance, and sobriety, and ID and run the driver. That’s basic proactive policing. 

I’m quite confident that every Mountie in Alberta has their own safety firmly in mind when checking license plates at casinos...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Jun 2020)

If I thought for a second that I was being unfairly targeted I'd have to be really really stupid to not renew my plates.....


----------



## lenaitch (13 Jun 2020)

When I saw the 'extended version' I figured from the beginning that this stop was going to go sideways.  The victim, not being the driver, was aggressive from the get-go.  Either one or both of the females tried to calm him without apparent success.  He was likely going to end up on the ground or draped over the truck at some point.  It is entirely possible that the member did not know the 'demographic profile' of the occupants before he walked up to the window.  It's Fort Mac - could have been a Newf expat for all he knew.  The fact that he is an elected chief gives him no more gravitas than anybody else.

Routine traffic enforcement shouldn't end up in a melee, but unless there was some provocative audio we are not aware of, the member didn't start it.  Is a diving tackle textbook?  Likely not, but sometimes, law enforcement looks messy.  Truth is, most cops are only proficient with a few hands-on tactics and even those don't always work as planned.  There is no choreographer like on TV,

What does the public expect; shrug and walk away at the first sign of push-back?  If there is too much social reaction or posting of cops' heads on pikes to satisfy the noisy voices, you will see more FIDO (F*** It, Drive On).


----------



## mariomike (13 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> , you will see more FIDO (F*** It, Drive On).



Windows UP! Don't touch the radio. Eyes on the road. Not the sidewalk. Sunglasses on.

( Not sure if that's how the police do it? )


----------



## lenaitch (13 Jun 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Windows UP! Don't touch the radio. Eyes on the road.
> 
> ( Not sure if that's how the police do it? )



It's like field investigations (aka 'carding').  Before, if you saw some guys hanging around behind a business at night, you checked them out, made some notes and submitted some field cards on them.  Police have the right to ask questions, and the public has a right, in most cases, to not answer.  If the day shift had some overnight crimes in the area, it was a starting point.  Now, it's a form justifying the reasons for asking questions in a public place, copy to the lads, instructions how to complain, and internally scrutinized to approve your actions.  Now, see the guys, drive on.


----------



## mariomike (14 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Before, if you saw some guys hanging around behind a business at night, you checked them out, made some notes and submitted some field cards on them.



As a resident, I'm in favour it.

Admittedly, I have had very few off-duty interactions with Metro Police. Possibly because I am white. More likely because I have always been very careful about my driving. 

Possibly "professional courtesy" was a factor. 

Perhaps "Community Engagement" would have a nicer ring to it than "carding".


----------



## quadrapiper (14 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If there's systemic racism in an organization, then they need to start cleaning house from the top down starting with Lucki.


There's also the question of which definition of systemic racism is being tossed around: one's "this outfit's riddled with racists," the other seems to boil down to "this outfit's structured/tasked in a way that ends up boning minorities."

Probably easier to figure out which pertains in a Canadian setting, since we've got massively fewer distinctly racist policymakers, senior civil service/police/flag and general staff, etc. than our southern neighbours, who _do_ have those, especially on the civvy and LEO side, and various systems built consciously first in a slaveholding society, and then post-Civil War, to keep black people out of power and under control.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2020)

The RCMP Commissioner was quoted saying this after she admitted she didn’t know what it meant.

"Systemic racism isn't about the behaviour of a single individual or the actions of one person. It's in the institutional structures that reflect the inequities that persist in our society. And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups.”

That, I think sums it up.  It isn’t just a police thing, it’s in society in a more broad sense and can be hard to pin down.  How does an organisation start to identify those things?

I agree with you Quadpiper, that Canada is not the same as the same as the US.  But I think that makes it harder to identify and deal with the issues that exist here.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Jun 2020)

"And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."

If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.


----------



## lenaitch (14 Jun 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> As a resident, I'm in favour it.
> 
> Admittedly, I have had very few off-duty interactions with Metro Police. Possibly because I am white. More likely because I have always been very careful about my driving.
> 
> ...



Ya, I don't know where the term 'carding' came from - whether it was informal TPS term or was coined outside of the organization.  My former Force never used the term that I am aware of.   More and more I find media and social media terms creeping into professional jargon (no doubt other professions are the same).  I was involved in a serious collision back in February and I overheard the cop calling for another 'bus', which is right out of TV shows involving New York.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."
> 
> If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.



Sure.  But I saw a good comparison on TV.  Police might patrol and conduct drug busts in disadvantaged neighbourhoods because that’s where the crime is.  But they rarely bust university fraternities where illegal drug use might actually be higher.  Again, it’s only part of the problem.


----------



## mariomike (14 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I was involved in a serious collision back in February and I overheard the cop calling for another 'bus', which is right out of TV shows involving New York.



I hope you recovered.

We called ambulances "cars". "Send a car" "Car Count" etc. Never a bus.

I was fortunate to get off the cars and onto the bus and truck division back in 1980.  
Got off the cars and never looked back.


----------



## Xylric (14 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups."
> 
> If racism still has any meaning, it isn't that.  The point of measurement isn't necessarily the point at which the problem was caused.  If people are disadvantaged because a shitty education foreshortened them, fix the shitty education system.



Honestly, I am sure that 80% of society's problems - including poverty - would be substantially mitigated should the education system get fixed up. The real problem is the reason why racism exists in the first place - discrimination of individuals outside of one's group is never going to be fully eliminated.  If skin colour, religion, gender, sexuality, and such cease being the easiest point of division, we'll just see new ones crop up. Intelligence is sadly an even more troubling division to me,  because I have seen kids I work with be dismissed as completely worthless simply because they do not communicate verbally. When the idiots doing so just don't understand sign!

The problem is not that systems are inherently discriminatory - they have to be to some degree in order to function properly, from what I have observed. The problem is that *people* are inherently tribal.


----------



## quadrapiper (14 Jun 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> The RCMP Commissioner was quoted saying this after she admitted she didn’t know what it meant.
> 
> "Systemic racism isn't about the behaviour of a single individual or the actions of one person. It's in the institutional structures that reflect the inequities that persist in our society. And it shows up in policies, processes or practices that may appear neutral on the surface, but disadvantage racialized people or groups.”
> 
> ...


We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.



I can’t disagree with that.


----------



## Xylric (15 Jun 2020)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> We can at least generally immediately eliminate "infested with racists" as a cause, if some entity is obviously not doing well with POC, and start looking for more subtle causes.



I will admit to the occasional carelessly thought out statement which is perceived as racially charged, but that is simply a consequence of not thinking in language, which resultis in a translation error. For example, my niece's skin is an identical shade to the tea her mother and grandmother enjoy. She is the most beautiful child in the world to me, but describe her in those words to those who have never seen her, and some people ready to throttle me!

If someone thinks I am being racist, sexist, or homophobic, when I am indeed not, it is not a situation I would ever be able to resolve - for the simple reason that as they have already concluded their perception of me as such a bigoted individual is accurate, anything I say would be taken as tainted and not worth hearing. As the conclusion of systemic racism has already been reached, it is simply not possible to disprove it should it not actually exist.

I think the most subtle cause for an organization to not do well with POC (I dislike the term because of how *regional* it seems. If I lived and worked in Nairobi, for example, would that not make *me* the POC?) is rather an obvious one. If you are expecting racism, you will find racism.


----------



## lenaitch (15 Jun 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I hope you recovered.



I was fine (thanks) other than airbag rash and a written-off 7 month old truck.  Local taxi crossed the centre line on a curve.  We knew it was PI but a rear seat passenger died later.  Nobody was belted.  All she complained of was back pain.  Took everybody by surprise, even the paramedics.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Jun 2020)

"PoC" was a retrograde step if I ever saw one.  Hard to believe it is still being used.  Have the people who build little shrines to it ever realized they divided the world into white people and PoCs, thereby erasing all the distinctiveness of everyone in the latter group?


----------



## FSTO (15 Jun 2020)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Did cop #2 use a bit more force than necessary? Yeah he likely did. Did I think it was overtly excessive considering the circumstances? Not particularly.



I re-watched that video. You can hear the second police car approaching due to the siren. So cop 2 arrives on scene and sees Cop 1 struggling with a person. Cop 2 has really no information of what is going on and all he sees is a struggle and he doesn't know if it is just a struggle for control or a struggle for the gun. There are no fair fights in these situations, Cop 2 will take out suspect as quickly as possible and if that takes a forearm shiver to the side of the head so be it.

Comments like this from federal government ministers only display their total ignorance and their attempts to display their Wokeness Point Totals.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7060131/rcmp-allan-adam-arrest/


----------



## FJAG (15 Jun 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I re-watched that video. You can hear the second police car approaching due to the siren. So cop 2 arrives on scene and sees Cop 1 struggling with a person. Cop 2 has really no information of what is going on and all he sees is a struggle and he doesn't know if it is just a struggle for control or a struggle for the gun. There are no fair fights in these situations, Cop 2 will take out suspect as quickly as possible and if that takes a forearm shiver to the side of the head so be it.
> 
> Comments like this from federal government ministers only display their total ignorance and their attempts to display their Wokeness Point Totals.
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7060131/rcmp-allan-adam-arrest/



Honestly, I think you need to rewatch the video one more time starting around 6:59 which is when officer #2 arrives. There is very little struggle at that point and considering officer #1 had a grip on him from behind and officer#2 came in from the front showed that they had a level of control over the situation which did not merit the immediate hard grab for a headlock which came at 7:05.

I don't like making snap judgments from the comfort of my easy chair any more than you do, but, while I'm definitely of the "pro-cop" persuasion, I can easily understand why many people may view this episode as an unnecessary act of violence by cop #2.

That said I agree with you completely about the one-side virtue blabber that is coming out of the mouths of our government officials. This is not the time to throw a vital element of our security structure under the bus to gain some political points, especially with a segment of the society whose vote they can pretty much count on anyway. A more even handed approach is needed, one which makes it clear that the situation will be examined and corrective action, where warranted, will be taken. Too have a man who plays serial dress-up in blackface say out loud that the RCMP suffers from systemic racism is a bit much.

 :cheers:


----------



## FSTO (15 Jun 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Honestly, I think you need to rewatch the video one more time starting around 6:59 which is when officer #2 arrives. There is very little struggle at that point and considering officer #1 had a grip on him from behind and officer#2 came in from the front showed that they had a level of control over the situation which did not merit the immediate hard grab for a headlock which came at 7:05.
> 
> I don't like making snap judgments from the comfort of my easy chair any more than you do, but, while I'm definitely of the "pro-cop" persuasion, I can easily understand why many people may view this episode as an unnecessary act of violence by cop #2.
> 
> ...



Totally valid assessment of my comment. 
What we don't have is the POV of the second officer as he came on the scene. 
All I can say is that its a job I wouldn't want to have.

cheers!


----------



## Xylric (15 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "PoC" was a retrograde step if I ever saw one.  Hard to believe it is still being used.  Have the people who build little shrines to it ever realized they divided the world into white people and PoCs, thereby erasing all the distinctiveness of everyone in the latter group?



At some point, my favourite response will be to pretend be extraordinarily offended at the assumption that I am the same as the _English_, as I am so Scottish that my ancestors were the first humans to set foot on the Highlands. My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman, so unfortunately there is some history involved there. Absolutely it is a retrograde step. It is worse than a step, it is a deceleration burn and can quite likely demolish all progress in the area.

I like to make the simple argument that an ideology without any sort of braking mechanism is ultimately doomed to become a suicide cult, and for good reason. If you have to silence (not necessarily kill) those who dissent with your ideology in order to ensure it survives and propogate, you will have to do the same to those who object to the measures you use to ensure silence. And so on, endlessly. Your ideology would be doomed to become cannibalistic in order to remain free of impurities. 

I do not like the term "Person of Colour" because it creates the same kind of issue as any other identity-driven groups. It places a descriptive trait ahead of the more important fact of our common humanity. It starts a game that one can never win or walk away from without consequence. That does not mean that it is a useless term that should be avoided, of course. One should just be aware of the ideological assumptions that surround it. My sister-in-law is Kenyan, and while that does mean her skin is on the opposite side of the gradient from my own, it is an irrelevant descriptive detail in my interactions with her. I don't interact with her as a PoC, _I interact with her has my sister_. If she chooses to describe herself in such terms, it changes nothing for me.


----------



## Kilted (15 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman, so unfortunately there is some history involved there.



That type of thinking is odd (granted I don't know of any particulars in this case and am referring to English and Scottish in general) given the number of times that the Royal Families of the two married into each other in till the Royal Lines merged. Not to mention they married into almost every other Royal Family in Europe. This is significant because of how many millions of people are desended from the Royal Families. Most people don't know the connection because it may have been a very long time ago. I have used the spare time I've had to look into ancestry.CA and I found that my 10x Great-Grandfather was the 22nd Earl of Mar, and from there I've been able to find numerous Dukes, Kings, and even a few Saints. We are actually a lot closer related then we think we are. Even to those who don't have the same colour skin, although a common ancestor might be further back.


----------



## Xylric (15 Jun 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> That type of thinking is odd (granted I don't know of any particulars in this case and am referring to English and Scottish in general) given the number of times that the Royal Families of the two married into each other in till the Royal Lines merged. Not to mention they married into almost every other Royal Family in Europe. This is significant because of how many millions of people are desended from the Royal Families. Most people don't know the connection because it may have been a very long time ago. I have used the spare time I've had to look into ancestry.CA and I found that my 10x Great-Grandfather was the 22nd Earl of Mar, and from there I've been able to find numerous Dukes, Kings, and even a few Saints. We are actually a lot closer related then we think we are. Even to those who don't have the same colour skin, although a common ancestor might be further back.



I know. I honestly think she would have tried to have my brother killed for his sins (marrying who he did), from what I had been told about her toxic attitudes. It was to the point where she was left to die alone, because my grandfather refused to see her. I can't blame him, but neither can I understand it. Point is, there is a distinct point In history I can point to where my family ceased to tolerate racial discrimination of ANY sort. 

About 4% of my DNA traces to Western Africa, and shows a dating roughly in line with an old tale I found in some family records - one of my ancestors turned to piracy out of spite for a rival, and ended up attacking a slave ship. Family legend says he married one of the women on the ship and elected to continue to raid the rival's business, which my DNA appears to confirm. So I may have an ancestor who turned to piracy out of moral indignation over slavery, may not. Simply makes it impossible for me to tolerate the sort of thinking that allows for racism.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Jun 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> That said I agree with you completely about the one-side virtue blabber that is coming out of the mouths of our government officials. This is not the time to throw a vital element of our security structure under the bus to gain some political points, especially with a segment of the society whose vote they can pretty much count on anyway. A more even handed approach is needed, one which makes it clear that the situation will be examined and corrective action, where warranted, will be taken. Too have a man who plays serial dress-up in blackface say out loud that the RCMP suffers from systemic racism is a bit much.
> 
> :cheers:



Consider that the Province of Quebec has played the language card since before I was born - playing the victim. They have also shown great intolerance for people of other cultures, let alone colour of skin.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Jun 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Consider that the Province of Quebec has played the language card since before I was born - playing the victim. They have also shown great intolerance for people of other cultures, let alone colour of skin.




A minority within a minority: Quebec's struggle to face racism

"White francophones are both a majority that is privileged in Quebec, and a minority that historically has been racialized based on their culture, on their religion and on their voice," he says.

"They're extremely scared here — if they denounce racism — that it will be used by the rest of Canada to actually racialize us, as Quebecers, saying: 'Obviously it's a culture that is racist.'"

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-9-2018-1.4567875/a-minority-within-a-minority-quebec-s-struggle-to-face-racism-1.4567938


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> At some point, my favourite response will be to pretend be extraordinarily offended at the assumption that I am the same as the _English_, as I am so Scottish that my ancestors were the first humans to set foot on the Highlands. *My great-grandmother (thankfully dead before I ever had a chance to hear her opinion on race) disowned her eldest daughter for the sin of marrying an Englishman*, so unfortunately there is some history involved there. Absolutely it is a retrograde step. It is worse than a step, it is a deceleration burn and can quite likely demolish all progress in the area.



My family are Irish Catholic immigrants.  Who moved to rural Ont North of Kingston (Verona <-> Tamworth) around the turn of the century.  

My grandmother tells how her Protestant boyfriend (future husband) brought her home to meet his family; his mother threw a pot of boiling water at her.  After that I assume they became estranged from his side of the family as in my 41 years I have never met anyone from that side.  

Apparently my ancestral grounds were heavy Orange Order territory.  To the point that they had Orange Order parades and the like.  My understanding is it become somewhat violent at times.  But I have never experienced that.  Over the years intermarrying was widespread and that whole prejudice has died out.


----------



## GR66 (16 Jun 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> My family are Irish Catholic immigrants.  Who moved to rural Ont North of Kingston (Verona <-> Tamworth) around the turn of the century.
> 
> My grandmother tells how her Protestant boyfriend (future husband) brought her home to meet his family; his mother threw a pot of boiling water at her.  After that I assume they became estranged from his side of the family as in my 41 years I have never met anyone from that side.
> 
> Apparently my ancestral grounds were heavy Orange Order territory.  To the point that they had Orange Order parades and the like.  My understanding is it become somewhat violent at times.  But I have never experienced that.  Over the years intermarrying was widespread and that whole prejudice has died out.



My Catholic grandmother in Montreal was excommunicated from the church in the 1920's for marrying an Anglican.

Growing up in suburban Ontario (Aurora...not too far North of Toronto) in the 1970's there was still a Loyal Orange Lodge in town and if I'm not mistaken there are still annual Orangemen's parades in Toronto.  Not sure how big they are anymore but I do seem to recall them being televised and a fairly big event.


----------



## mariomike (16 Jun 2020)

GR66 said:
			
		

> if I'm not mistaken there are still annual Orangemen's parades in Toronto.



2020 would have been their 200th. The parade has been postponed till 2021, due to COVID-19.


----------



## Xylric (16 Jun 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> 2020 would have been their 200th. The parade has been postponed till 2021, due to COVID-19.



At the risk of being horrible, I do have to wonder what would happen if the Orange men and Black Lives Matter had a scheduling conflict for their parades....

Humans seem to hold grudges religiously - there are still places in Scotland I should probably never visit due to my family name, in some ways.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> At the risk of being horrible, I do have to wonder what would happen if the Orange men and Black Lives Matter had a scheduling conflict for their parades....
> 
> Humans seem to hold grudges religiously - there are still places in Scotland I should probably never visit due to my family name, in some ways.



One thing I like about Canada is that groups like 'our' Orange Order probably don't support active terrorist organizations as part of getting their messages out...


----------



## Xylric (16 Jun 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> One thing I like about Canada is that groups like 'our' Orange Order probably don't support active terrorist organizations as part of getting their messages out...



Absolutely! People come here to get away from that kind of insanity.


----------



## brihard (16 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> At the risk of being horrible, I do have to wonder what would happen if the Orange men and Black Lives Matter had a scheduling conflict for their parades....
> 
> Humans seem to hold grudges religiously - there are still places in Scotland I should probably never visit due to my family name, in some ways.



Last I checked I thought a scheduling conflict between BLM and an orange guy results in people getting OC sprayed...  :dunno:


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Jun 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> Absolutely! People come here to get away from that kind of insanity.



Not to those that want Ontario to recognize Sharia law.


----------



## Remius (16 Jun 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> One thing I like about Canada is that groups like 'our' Orange Order probably don't support active terrorist organizations as part of getting their messages out...



The history of that organisation and their attempts to encourage assimilation and the cultural destruction of Franco Ontariens doesn’t make me a fan of that group’s past.  The remnants of which affected me into my first few years of high schools.  It certainly had an impact on my father’s generation. 

 But yes, glad to see it never translated into more than the occasional riot or bar brawl.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (17 Jun 2020)

> RCMP officer shares personal experiences of racism and discrimination
> 
> B.C.
> 2020-06-15 08:29 PDT
> ...



Article link:
http://bc.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=2087&contentId=64835&languageId=1


----------



## CBH99 (17 Jun 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoHjvrovn4A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3i7oAo5Snc


^^ I wanted to post this for anybody who hadn't seen the entire clip leading up to the incident.


1st clip - Edmonton Journal, showing the incident in full

2nd clip - CTV news, showing about 6 seconds of video, and 3 minutes of extreme bias & manipulating the general public 



In my opinion, this has to be the most disgusting & blatant effort from CTV to manipulate the public.  Pls share with anybody you can.   :2c:


----------



## QV (17 Jun 2020)

The only thing that surprises me is that, in June of 2020, there are still people apparently surprised when they finally learn the MSM is not an honest broker.


----------



## Xylric (17 Jun 2020)

QV said:
			
		

> The only thing that surprises me is that, in June of 2020, there are still people apparently surprised when they finally learn the MSM is not an honest broker.



It hasn't been for several thousand years!

I swear, sometimes I think the saying "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" is a good foundation for a religious order of some kind.


----------



## CBH99 (17 Jun 2020)

Not surprised in the slightest.

I guess what I was surprised by isn't the bias, or the short selection of video they chose to show.  

It was the combination of a very short, selection of video combined with her "Only 4 seconds after he gets out of his vehicle, he is violently tackled to the ground" - *a blatant lie, since she's surely seen the video in full.*  


He's outside of his vehicle for a whole lot longer than 4 seconds, and he wasn't tackled because he's native.  And he is their Chief?  Probably time for some new leadership.,

We all know the media is biased.  I guess what really grinds my gears in regards to this particular situation is that almost all Canadian media outlets went along with the same narrative, about him being tackled to the ground as soon as he got out of his vehicle, over an expired plate.  When in reality, they most likely all had access to the full clip, and chose the same deceptive narrative.


If they were being honest, the headlines would have read along the lines of "Drunk Chief's Arrest Caught on Camera" -- and allow people to watch the video, and come to their own conclusions.


----------



## QV (17 Jun 2020)

I think bias is a wild understatement.  You're correct, this is a blatant lie.  Designed to cause civil unrest, I'd say, what other reason would there be?  Isn't that a crime? 

(PS: Trump was right again. Fake news is the enemy of the people. Don't hate me.)


----------



## Remius (17 Jun 2020)

Not fake news, just edited to fit a narrative would be my guess.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Jun 2020)

So what, then, is "fake news", if deception isn't included?


----------



## FJAG (17 Jun 2020)

QV said:
			
		

> I think bias is a wild understatement.  You're correct, this is a blatant lie.  Designed to cause civil unrest, I'd say, what other reason would there be?  Isn't that a crime?
> 
> (PS: Trump was right again. Fake news is the enemy of the people. Don't hate me.)





			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> So what, then, is "fake news", if deception isn't included?



Complaints can be made against Canadian media agencies through the National NewsMedia Council here:

https://mediacouncil.ca/

The media is a self-regulating one. Before making a complaint to them (which needs to be done within one month) you need to contact the media agency being complained about first.

CTV News Editorial Standards are here: https://www.ctvnews.ca/editorial-standards-and-policies

While I found no specific link for filing complaints, the Standards page has both a phone number and email link for Public Engagement:



> Here’s how you can reach us: 416-384-6300 or ctvnews.caproducers@bellmedia.ca.



I agree with you. The piece was misleading from the get-go in that they made it appear that this "tackle" came out of the blue "4 seconds after exiting the vehicle" without any mention of the prior and significant interaction.

I encourage you to file a complaint. Nothing will ever change unless you become involved.

 :cheers:


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2020)

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/halton-cop-suspended-after-shoving-video-surfaces/amp

Hard to tell the kids race, possibly not Caucasian. Pretty sad video regardless. 

Nice to see the police department suspending the officer quickly.


----------



## CBH99 (22 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/halton-cop-suspended-after-shoving-video-surfaces/amp
> 
> Hard to tell the kids race, possibly not Caucasian. Pretty sad video regardless.
> 
> Nice to see the police department suspending the officer quickly.





On the surface, the video looks unprofessional and bad.

*If there is one thing we were all reminded of recently, however, is how the 'full video' can show a very different story, re: RCMP situation with the Chief in Alberta.*



That video showed only about 6 seconds of a situation, and was narrated dishonestly by a majority of the news outlets.

I'd like to see the full video of this situation also, if available.


*Personally, I doubt an officer just walked up and started bullying/shoving this kid around and the other officers just stood around.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  I am guessing there is more to this story than just 'grumpy cop shoves around annoying kid'.*   

(Although things could be EXACTLY as they appear, and I'm wrong.)


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Jun 2020)

Agreed full videos can show a different situation.

I'm curious too.  I'm trying to think of a scenario where it's proper to shove a kid down. When he gets up hit him with his bag. Shove him again. Shove him again. Shove him again. Shove him again. Kick his property across the road. Shove him. Shove him from behind. Kick his property across the road again. Hit him a couple more times then take him down.


----------



## CBH99 (22 Jun 2020)

Totally agree with ya Jarn.  100%.   :cheers:

Obviously wasn't handled well.  


Just saying, curious to see what led up to it going down that way.


----------



## OceanBonfire (22 Jun 2020)

> *Racist meme circulating in Canadian military sparks apology, investigation from leaders*
> 
> Military police are investigating reports of a service member spreading racist pictures even as top defence officials apologize for their slow response to questions about systemic racism in the Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces.
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (22 Jun 2020)

Career suicide via social media?


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Jun 2020)

Is making fun of another race _racist_? Or can it be someone just being an asshole? Does the word get overused or incorrectly used? Could racism in Canada be exasperated by our shit-posting culture?

Do people who respond/claim "all lives matter" to "black lives matter" statements et el harbor some kind of subconscious bias towards recognizing racism against black people?

You probably wouldn't call a black couple  Tyrone and Latisha if you didn't know their names.  Why does it seem okay, if not trending, to call a white couple Chad and Karen? Or stereo-type "take me to the manager" white women as Karen?Is pointing out double standards a passive-aggressive form of racism?


----------



## dimsum (22 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You probably wouldn't call a black couple  Tyrone and Latisha if you didn't know their names.  Why does it seem okay, if not trending, to call a white couple Chad and Karen? Or stereo-type "take me to the manager" white women as Karen?Is pointing out double standards a passive-aggressive form of racism?



To be honest, I thought "Chad" and "Karen" were attitude stereotypes, not race stereotypes.  There can definitely be Chads and Karens in all races.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Jun 2020)

"Racism" means whatever the user wants it to mean.  As long as there is no agreed definition, people talk past each other.

David Marcus at The Federalist:*

"There are two basic definitions of racism in the United States, one roughly associated with progressives and one roughly associated with conservatives. The former describes racism as the failure to acknowledge and seek to redress systemic discrimination against select disadvantaged minority groups. It is very broad and captures everything from unconscious bias to white supremacy. The latter views racism as making assumptions about, or taking action towards, an individual or group on the sole basis of their race. It is narrow and generally requires belief, intent, and animosity.

These definitions don’t simply differ; to a great extent they actually contradict each other. Much of the contradiction stems from the fact that the progressive definition of racism requires that an advantaged individual or group must be attacking the less privileged. The more conservative and narrow definition of racism requires no appeal to power structures, only to bias, and can be committed by anyone towards anyone."

*Don't bother with the obligatory "media bias" complaint.  The two paragraphs quoted are all that is relevant to the point.


----------



## mariomike (22 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> To be honest, I thought "Chad" and "Karen" were attitude stereotypes, not race stereotypes.  There can definitely be Chads and Karens in all races.



Had to look them up in the Urban Dictionary.

Karen
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen

Chad was too disgusting!


----------



## Quirky (22 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why does it seem okay, if not trending, to call a white couple Chad and Karen? Or stereo-type "take me to the manager" white women as Karen?Is pointing out double standards a passive-aggressive form of racism?



White people, in my opinion, don’t seem to care if they are discriminated against by race. https://youtu.be/87LGmm1M5Is


----------



## YZT580 (22 Jun 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> White people, in my opinion, don’t seem to care if they are discriminated against by race. https://youtu.be/87LGmm1M5Is


  Oh yes they do.  Every time the government runs a competition and a non-white wins there is resentment.  You can't convince the loser that it was anything other than colour, sexual orientation, or handicap that won it for the other guy.  And there is a lot of true stories behind that attitude to reenforce the negative feelings.  From white I have witnessed and experienced, most, like over 90 % of people are not racist by nature.  There are definitely exceptions but the vast majority of folks start off as accepting until an event such as relayed above occurs or until they see another race getting an advantage that they don't share because of colour.  Here is a simple example: check out any college or university and find out how many white students are on burseries or scolorships and then compare that to the number of indigenous students living on handouts.  Instant resentment


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Jun 2020)

I just filled out an RFI for a Federal government proposal, literally half the questions revolved around "Are you a indigenous business or how will you help or employ indigenous businesses/people". I am all for a hand up, but even for me it's a bit much and the message is that it's impossible for a equally qualified business to compete fairly with a indigenous one for government contracts. I have seen what to much of this has done to Malaysia and it's very hard to scale back the handouts without being accused of racism, even when they are becoming a detriment. I know on one major project a FN company got a contract that was clearly to complex for them (it was a tough one for anyone, much less a brand new company, with new employees) the corporation had to hire another contractor to basically hold their hands through it as they could not be seen to fail. No one wanted to talk public about it though.


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Jun 2020)

Oops....


A video posted by the Public Service Commission (PSC) that depicts only white bureaucrats sent the wrong message to minorities and failed to reflect the diversity of the federal public service, Treasury Board President Jean-Yves Duclos said today.

The PSC, an agency of the federal government that manages "merit-based hiring" and helps develop hiring policies for the larger public service, posted a short video to its social media channels on Friday to mark National Public Service Week, an occasion meant to recognize the contributions of the country's public servants.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/public-service-all-white-bureaucrats-video-1.5622772


----------



## Quirky (23 Jun 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Oops..
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/public-service-all-white-bureaucrats-video-1.5622772



Wow. I’m just glad I don’t have to grow up in this society, just a few more years and I can retire and watch the world burn down from a quiet place in the mountains.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Jun 2020)

It won't burn.  But people are going to find it a damned uncomfortable place to live with everyone walking around on eggshells hoping no zealot uncovers some indiscretion.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> It won't burn.  But people are going to find it a damned uncomfortable place to live with everyone walking around on eggshells hoping no zealot uncovers some indiscretion.



We're there already and have been for years.  :2c:


----------



## dimsum (23 Jun 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> It won't burn.  But people are going to find it a damned uncomfortable place to live with everyone walking around on eggshells hoping no zealot uncovers some indiscretion.



So, what some people feared would happen with SHARP and Operation HONOUR?  

Relax.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Jun 2020)

I suppose fears of what SHARP etc would lead to were hypothetical.

People getting fired because the mob demanded a head is not hypothetical.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jun 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Oops....
> 
> 
> A video posted by the Public Service Commission (PSC) that depicts only white bureaucrats sent the wrong message to minorities and failed to reflect the diversity of the federal public service, Treasury Board President Jean-Yves Duclos said today.
> ...



That would be a first, normally they are falling over themselves to add in every group they can think of. The joke was the dream employee was Gay, transgender black blind Lesbian woman in a wheelchair. With one employee you get to check so many boxes. In Vancouver it's almost impossible to have a all white office. the only group I see missing from being hired in government was Persian, because they generally look down on government jobs.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> That would be a first, normally they are falling over themselves to add in every group they can think of. The joke was the dream employee was Gay, transgender black blind Lesbian woman in a wheelchair. With one employee you get to check so many boxes. In Vancouver it's almost impossible to have a all white office. the only group I see missing from being hired in government was Persian, because they generally look down on government jobs.



You forgot to mention "bilingual".  :nod:


----------



## Xylric (23 Jun 2020)

One of the things that raises my eyebrow is that when you devolve your perceptions of a person to the point where you start with their skin colour, you eliminate that person's unique history. A Kenyan immigrant descended from the Kalenjin people is not going to have the same cultural origin as someone descended from the San, for example. Yet they are both 'Black' by North American reckoning.

How many people are good, decent neighbours with people who would effectively be their sworn enemy in their country of origin? When I was at Sheridan, I got to watch with pride as an Israeli classmate proposed to his Iranian girlfriend - and neither family had an issue with it, because that was the best illustration of why both families came to Canada.

My sister-in-law (the Kenyan referenced above) made an interesting point where we were discussing how one applies their perception of what is and is not beautiful to people outside of their own ethnic group, which I honestly can't entirely discount. There appears to be a certain element of jealousy that underlies much of the racist behaviours.

I do not comprehend racism, as it seems to me like dissolving a relationship with a member of one's extended family simply because one does not like how that relative carries on with their life. There's generally no benefit to it whatsoever, and plenty of harm - the least of which is a seed of animosity.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Jun 2020)

RCMP officer drags student down hallway while handcuffed. Steps on her head when she tries to lift it. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyuXUoGwbPc&app=desktop

Student talks about the incident. 
https://youtu.be/2lxhL7i0luw


----------



## CBH99 (28 Jun 2020)

Video looks bad...

Curious to hear from some of the front line officers here.  Isn't there a better way to move someone, rather than cranking the shoulders back like that?  

Drag by ankles rather than wrists backwards & up by the head?  Stay in the room, if safety permits, until backup arrives?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2020)

I suspect the officer had enough of her crap that she threw at the officer where the camera wasn't. Dragging someone is work, especially wearing body armour, duty belt. Looking at the video, there were 2 female police at the scene, why the other one was not helping I am not sure, securing evidence/scene I suppose. Keep in mind this woman had a knife when they first arrived, so likley this went from a high stress to a drawn out discussion, to a wilful disobeying of commands.


----------



## mariomike (28 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Curious to hear from some of the front line officers here.  Isn't there a better way to move someone, rather than cranking the shoulders back like that?
> 
> Drag by ankles rather than wrists backwards & up by the head?  Stay in the room, if safety permits, until backup arrives?



I don't know what RCMP protocol is. 

But, I've done enough wellness checks to believe if her civil lawsuit was against us, the taxpayers would be writing her a cheque for "an undisclosed amount".


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jun 2020)

I'm always reluctant to comment on police ops because I wasn't there, but the first question that came to my mind was why were they/she (I wasn't aware there was more than one member involved - I don't see it in the video) moving her?  Was there a threat or danger in the apartment?  It would seem easier to remove the threat from the person rather than remove the person from the threat unless it was impractical.  Now that she has been dragged to the front door, now what?  If she was, as reported, in a "semi conscious state", sounds like EMS is required.  Couldn't they treat her in the apartment or hallway at the apartment door?  I have a bit of a hard time seeing how someone, handcuffed and in a 'semi conscious state' poses an immediate and uncontrollable danger.  Dragging someone isn't easy no matter which end you use and I doubt there is any training on that.  If you drag by the feet you are at a bit more risk since legs are more powerful.   Using a foot to push somebody's head back down or hair to lift it up?  Not in any book I read.

It seems none of the other residents had any compassion or interest other than to stand and stare, but I don't know what transpired before the cops arrived; although it is reported that the request came from the boyfriend and not a disturbance call from the building.

This has 'big cheque' written all over it.


----------



## OceanBonfire (4 Jul 2020)

> *Taxi driver subjected to racist tirade after asking man to wear mask*
> 
> _Warning: An embedded video in this article contains racist language_
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2020)

They had an article here on blacks in Lower mainland who experienced racism. I have no doubt it exists, however the majority of blacks I have seen here in Vancouver appear middle to upper middle class. One of the women says she came from Rwanda, I really had to resist the urge to ask why she left and if she was a Tutsis. Modern Canadians are amateurs when it comes to racism, when you compare the rest of the world.


----------



## Remius (4 Jul 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> They had an article here on blacks in Lower mainland who experienced racism. I have no doubt it exists, however the majority of blacks I have seen here in Vancouver appear middle to upper middle class. One of the women says she came from Rwanda, I really had to resist the urge to ask why she left and if she was a Tutsis. Modern Canadians are amateurs when it comes to racism, when you compare the rest of the world.



Class doesn’t mean you are protected from racism.

The history of the residential school system, turning Jews away in WW2 shows that we can play in the big leagues like anyone else.   I know you said modern, but we have current families still broken by a system that was in effect well into the latter half of the 20th century.

Canada is just more polite about its racism.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jul 2020)

Yet we overturned that system and most of the RC vs Protestant in Quebec as well. I suspect that there are few people alive today that were responsible for those programs, so how long do we carry the sins of our forefathers? Much of the open racism I see here is by visible minorities unto other groups. At the end of the day racism is never entirely going to go away and who dislikes who gets more complex as the country becomes more multi-cultural. In fact white guys like me are predicted to become a minority in Vancouver by 2031 according to Citizenship and Immigration Canada.


----------



## brihard (5 Jul 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Yet we overturned that system and most of the RC vs Protestant in Quebec as well. I suspect that there are few people alive today that were responsible for those programs, so how long do we carry the sins of our forefathers? Much of the open racism I see here is by visible minorities unto other groups. At the end of the day racism is never entirely going to go away and who dislikes who gets more complex as the country becomes more multi-cultural. In fact white guys like me are predicted to become a minority in Vancouver by 2031 according to Citizenship and Immigration Canada.



The last residential school closed in 1996. This is not an ‘everyone involved is now dead’ problem. The effects in First Nations communities are going to last for generations. I was dealing with survivors and their kids/grandkids frequently when I was policing up north. If you aren’t familiar with the inter generational effects of trauma, I respectfully suggest you give a bit of time to reading up on it. We as a country have some dark history that is more recent than a lot of us would be comfortable with. Sure as hell anyone working front lines in emergency/social services in indigenous communities is going to be able to say that the effects of a really malignant official racism is going to be with us for a long time.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2020)

I wonder what 'Hunky Bill' would have to say about this  

The Edmonton Eskimos are experiencing a backlash on social media after the team rebuffed renewed calls to drop a name critics say is racist.

“We recognize that there has been increased attention to the name recently and we will ramp up our engagement with the Inuit communities to assess their views,” the CFL team’s official Twitter account posted.

https://theprovince.com/news/local-news/edmonton-eskimos-face-backlash-on-twitter-as-calls-for-name-change-rise/wcm/07191803-a237-45fc-bc9c-4939dce12f1f


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I wonder what 'Hunky Bill' would have to say about this
> 
> The Edmonton Eskimos are experiencing a backlash on social media after the team rebuffed renewed calls to drop a name critics say is racist.
> 
> ...



Perhaps they should take a lesson from Ottawa...reviewed their new name to replace Rough Riders from every possible direction for sensitivity and cultural awareness and came up with....’Red Blacks’. :nod:


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> Canada is just more polite about its racism.



None of us made this world. Most just try to get along in it. Might not solve the world's problems, or even help understand them. 

But, it costs nothing to smile and be polite. Hypocritical? Maybe. But, sometimes it makes your day a little easier.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jul 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The last residential school closed in 1996. This is not an ‘everyone involved is now dead’ problem. The effects in First Nations communities are going to last for generations. I was dealing with survivors and their kids/grandkids frequently when I was policing up north. If you aren’t familiar with the inter generational effects of trauma, I respectfully suggest you give a bit of time to reading up on it. We as a country have some dark history that is more recent than a lot of us would be comfortable with. Sure as hell anyone working front lines in emergency/social services in indigenous communities is going to be able to say that the effects of a really malignant official racism is going to be with us for a long time.



I have seen the effects firsthand as well, although not through the policing angle. Also sailed with a couple of FN who were actually thankfully to go to residential school as it got them away from bad situations, they admitted they don't feel comfortable saying anything positive about it due to backlash from their own communities. It was badly thought out and badly handled. My high school had a high native population when i was going in the 70's, so even by then the residential system was being dismantled where they could.


----------



## YZT580 (6 Jul 2020)

you will never eliminate racism until you eliminate all laws that identify a group for special consideration; be it colour, creed, or sex.  The American constitution spells it out as well as anything I have ever read.  All men are created equal is one heck of an creed to live by.  The difficulty starts when you add laws to try and address a perceived problem.  i.e. our population is 30% Asian population therefore the staff numbers in every industry, govt. office should reflect that percentage.  So a law is passed demanding compliance.  Such a law creates resentment and prevents talented individuals from advancing in the company and it prevents the company from potentially hiring the best person for a job.  And at the end of the day, the law doesn't address the real problem.  That problem could be a single prejudiced person in HR, it could be skills training, it could be any of a dozen or more reasons and for politicians, identifying those reasons is time consuming and doesn't make for good press like enacting a law does.
Constantly attempting to address the sins of our fathers through apologies and throwing cash is foolish as well.  Many of those who participated in the residential schools were hard-working and conscientious individuals who honestly (if mistakenly) thought that they were helping bring the noble savage into the 20th century.  Forget the past, take from today forward and do it differently.  Perhaps, when all is said and done, Marianmike has the better solution: smile, and show compassion.


----------



## Remius (6 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> you will never eliminate racism until you eliminate all laws that identify a group for special consideration; be it colour, creed, or sex.  The American constitution spells it out as well as anything I have ever read.  All men are created equal is one heck of an creed to live by.  The difficulty starts when you add laws to try and address a perceived problem.  i.e. our population is 30% Asian population therefore the staff numbers in every industry, govt. office should reflect that percentage.  So a law is passed demanding compliance.  Such a law creates resentment and prevents talented individuals from advancing in the company and it prevents the company from potentially hiring the best person for a job.  And at the end of the day, the law doesn't address the real problem.  That problem could be a single prejudiced person in HR, it could be skills training, it could be any of a dozen or more reasons and for politicians, identifying those reasons is time consuming and doesn't make for good press like enacting a law does.
> Constantly attempting to address the sins of our fathers through apologies and throwing cash is foolish as well.  Many of those who participated in the residential schools were hard-working and conscientious individuals who honestly (if mistakenly) thought that they were helping bring the noble savage into the 20th century.  Forget the past, take from today forward and do it differently.  Perhaps, when all is said and done, Marianmike has the better solution: smile, and show compassion.



Until the system is an actual equal playing field you won’t see that.  Reverse racism is a common argument against these types of programs but has very little actual data to back it up.  Plenty of anecdotal  evidence but very little empirical data.  

I disagree with your argument that the people involved thought they were helping indigenous people through the residential school system.  They just told themselves and likely convinced themselves of that to justify what they did.  No different than the similar argument that plenty of confederates used to justify slavery.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Jul 2020)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/racist-flyer-dnd-discrimination-case-1.5633305

CBC is reporting on a story out of NDHQ.



> The case relates to a 2016 incident in which a supervisor at DND in Ottawa put up a flyer in a kitchenette showing a photo of a white van made to look like an ad for a Detroit moving company. The logo featured caricatures of two Black men carrying spears and an offensive slogan containing the N-word.
> ...
> She said she complained to the supervisor's boss, and the supervisor was ordered to apologize to the Black employees in the office.
> ...
> ...


----------



## YZT580 (6 Jul 2020)

Reverse racism is a common argument against these types of programs but has very little actual data to back it up.  Plenty of anecdotal  evidence but very little empirical data. 

Probably because no one has joined the dots but if it quacks like a duck.... Many people that have gone through a government competition can recite instances where the job has gone based upon race often after the original posting has been grieved.


----------



## Remius (6 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Reverse racism is a common argument against these types of programs but has very little actual data to back it up.  Plenty of anecdotal  evidence but very little empirical data.
> 
> Probably because no one has joined the dots but if it quacks like a duck.... Many people that have gone through a government competition can recite instances where the job has gone based upon race often after the original posting has been grieved.



Do the numbers actually reflect that though?

It’s not hard to connect those dots.  The PS has all the data on all groups represented.  If those dots could be connected to fit the reverse racism narrative I guarantee you someone would have.

Many people have also assumed that jobs went based on race or gender but have very little proof to show that it actually was.  

My last process had two white guys hired (me being one) and I know there was at least one black female in the process.  We were both hired because we were more qualified and scored better on the process.  She was not.  Even though she checked the box for two of the identified groups.  But that is also anecdotal.


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## YZT580 (6 Jul 2020)

The very fact that this conversation keeps coming up is proof that the current system is flawed.  Perhaps, as you say it is truly anecdotal then a more transparent method needs to be devised whereby the evidence for the selection (including scores but not connected to any name but the winner) needs to be made available to any who wish to investigate.  They won because they are (insert group name here) is not refuted by management you will have the argument of bias.  As an aside, the Hamilton Fire Department was filling vacancies 3 years ago and made it known in the competition that ethnic individuals would be chosen first because their percentage of minorities was not up to government standards.  
Irving selected a number of first nations folks for their training programme for the yards and made no apologies for the choice.  Incidentally I agreed with the policy then and now in spite of the appearance of reverse racism.  Bit of a hypocrite I suppose but they still have to qualify as tradesmen at the end of it all and there is not a lot of methods other than OJT whereby a person can break out of their individual ghetto.
Universities have numerous scholarships for first nations that are not available to Caucasians and do not have any that are available for whitey only.  These disparities, well-intended though they may be, create animosity towards other races and groups and that animosity is passed on through generations.
In my own field, the problem of disparate numbers boiled down to lack of applications from those particular groups yet we went through years of grief before they finally figured it out and changed their advertising.  So I go back to my previous thoughts and humbly suggest that where there is a discrepancy, look for the root cause and address it through education or advertising or whatever including changing HR individuals.  Don't do it through regulation


----------



## QV (6 Jul 2020)

What do you think of this?

http://www.gladueprinciples.ca/module-2/key-factors-relevant-to-aboriginal-sentencing-considerations



> Canadian sentencing laws recognize that some categories of people in society are different than others.
> 
> Section 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code addresses Aboriginal sentencing. The section requires a sentencing judge to pay particular attention to the circumstances of Aboriginal offenders and to consider all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances.
> 
> An individual’s Aboriginal status is considered in determining a sentence because his or her circumstances are different from non-Aboriginal offenders.


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## FJAG (6 Jul 2020)

There's nothing inherently wrong in giving a hand up to folks who have been disadvantaged for a long time.

Racism itself is not reactive to affirmative action programs and laws. Racism flourished overtly long before any of those programs and to argue that it comes from that, or is exacerbated by that, is rationalization.

Racism will continue as long as one little group of blonde-haired girls bullies another little blonde-haired girl for wearing the wrong clothing. Some theorize that it's genetically ingrained in us to distrust "different" as part of our tribe/kinship coding. One needs to build a very strong social veneer on top of that which makes it unacceptable for racism to take place.

 :cheers:


----------



## Remius (6 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Universities have numerous scholarships for first nations that are not available to Caucasians and do not have any that are available for whitey only.



Again it’s a perception thing and not reality.  Specific scholarships for under represented and disadvantaged groups does not mean that there are not plenty of other scholarships for “whitey”.  

A study in the US showed that Caucasians get 3x the rate of scholarships.  Not because of overt racism but availability of said scholarships.  So in the case of First Nations they may already be locked out of many merit based scholarships by virtue of their nature and the interests of the sponsoring group or organisation.  

In Canada I would assume that the numbers are the same or similar.  So my son who might be an amazing hockey player and I paid for years of hockey because I could afford it can access tons of sports scholarships that someone who can’t, typically from disadvantaged groups.  Disadvantaged groups normally don’t apply or qualify for several sports or activity based scholarships that some advanced groups do.  Internet and computer access on and in many First Nations reserves is non existant or limited.  Even applying for some of these is a challenge if not Impossible.

“Whitey” has way more to choose from and access to than some groups.  So the feeling that they didn’t get a scholarship because he couldn’t apply for one that targets visible minorities or First Nations is misplaced and quite likely an excuse rather than the reality.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (6 Jul 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> There's nothing inherently wrong in giving folks who have been disadvantaged for a long time.
> 
> Racism itself is not reactive to affirmative action programs and laws. Racism flourished overtly long before any of those programs and to argue that it comes from that, or is exacerbated by that, is rationalization.
> 
> ...



I think that there is a fair bit to the tribalism theory of human relationships that goes far beyond skin colour or race in how people relate to one another.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Jul 2020)

A person is disadvantaged.  Groups are..just groups.

Benefits and advantages should be means-tested, not skin-tested.


----------



## Xylric (6 Jul 2020)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I think that there is a fair bit to the tribalism theory of human relationships that goes far beyond skin colour or race in how people relate to one another.



Just look at the Scottish Highland clans if you want to be sure of it!


----------



## Remius (6 Jul 2020)

This conversation has led me to look at how the Romans, a mixed race people, viewed race in antiquity.  The concept of race was a much different thing than what we know,  race was recognized but not as we know it. 

Anyone could be romanized and being a Roman is what mattered.  Skin colour was not generally something that was defined as group.  

There are a few interesting articles on the subject.


----------



## OceanBonfire (7 Jul 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/racist-flyer-dnd-discrimination-case-1.5633305
> 
> CBC is reporting on a story out of NDHQ.



I hope that supervisor's name goes public once the investigation is over.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Jul 2020)

My wife is from Malaysia and is considered "Indigenous" there. So she qualifies for all sorts of special programs and perks. A couple of problems have arose. Malays have gone from 30% of the population to 60%, the government is running out of money to pay for all these perks. Trying to to cut back on them causes a riot, people have grown up expecting them as their birthright and since all businesses must hire Malay's, they end up unmotivated and poor workers.  

Affirmative actions programs may be a necessary evil, but they must always be seen as a temporary measure. I know a lot of women who despise female based affirmative action programs as they feel it devalues their hard work and they feel they get tainted by the brush of favoritism. However I don't see many politicians having the political balls to start weaning people off of these programs. In fact they see it as a "electable promise" regardless of whether we can afford it or it's healthy for the country in the long run.

For First Nations here, a few things, one their population is growing, becoming more urban and educated. they are also becoming more diluted as non-FN marry in and acquire rights and memberships in bands. This is going to mean more people vying for those programs, but there is only so much money to go around. This is one reason the FN bands for the most part opposed the status of Metis being raised to equal them. Another problem for the FN in the near future is that they are not going to be sitting across the table looking at a bunch of white guys, that other side is going to be populated more and more by other minorities, many that have little or no sympathy, nor history with the FN issues. Plus as politicians vie for the ethnic votes, the desire to spend money on programs that get no traction with minority communities will see the will to settle treaties diminish.

My experience with bands in BC is that in most of them the young people are less interested in the "rights and title" fight and more interested in economic opportunities. This shift has caught many band council off guard as they don't have a lot of expertise on economic activity. That being said, I have seen significant change and improvements on most of the reserves over the last 20 years and have confidence that many will do well.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Jul 2020)

Xylric said:
			
		

> Just look at the Scottish Highland clans if you want to be sure of it!



Not just that either. I am from Northern Saskatchewan (tune the banjos please) and the racism between those of Anglo Saxon origin and Slavic origin wasn't pretty either.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jul 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Affirmative actions programs may be a necessary evil, but they must always be seen as a temporary measure.



Canada has had it for a long time,



> The roots of employment equity are in the 1984 Abella Commission, chaired by Judge Rosalie Abella. She considered a US term, "affirmative action", but decided not to use it because of the emotions and ill will surrounding affirmative action. In its place she created the term "employment equity" for the Canadian context. Abella's report later became the foundation of the Employment Equity Act of 1986, later amended as the Employment Equity Act of 1995.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_equity_(Canada)#History


----------



## OceanBonfire (9 Jul 2020)

> *Police investigating after racist, anti-mask tirade at Mississauga supermarket goes viral*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7155891/racist-anti-mask-viral-video-mississauga
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1992191


----------



## mariomike (9 Jul 2020)

I'm familiar with that store. Always a pleasant experience. What the Hell is wrong with some people?


----------



## CBH99 (9 Jul 2020)

I've never understood how people end up becoming that way   :facepalm:


Like at some point, does him brain not kick in and say... "I'm a grown man, standing in the middle of a supermarket, yelling & threatening an employee, having a massive hissy fit."  ??

When the 2yo toddler is starring at you, saying "Wowa, this guy is so childish!"    You know it's maybe time to take a breath, go to the car, and think it through once you've calmed down a bit    :facepalm:


----------



## mariomike (9 Jul 2020)

Nothing new about people kvetching about masks.

But, that racist diatribe made me sick. The people interviewed were visibly upset.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Jul 2020)

Those employees deserve an award of some kind for the restraint shown in the face of deep ignorance and blatant aggression.

Is there a medal for that yet? If not, there should be...


----------



## YZT580 (9 Jul 2020)

It is quite possible that under normal conditions the guy is not as he appears on the video.  His diatribe is almost incoherent and it is disjointed.  It appears to me to be more a classic road-rage outburst and I think we will see more of it.  People are reaching the end of their tethers and are unable to find normality in which to sit down, draw in a few deep breathes and smell the roses or something else pleasurable.  The masks are a visible reminder that things aren't normal.  He was correct in that the virus did originate in China.  Possibly he has been either laid off or on reduced hours.  His kids (if any) have been constantly questioning, perhaps he doesn't like the government giving money away.  There are a myriad little irritants that keep combining and he doesn't see an escape.  Pressure builds and he blows.  Not really racist I don't think, the clerk was just the first available target.  Fortunately, we don't have carry permits here in Canada or it could have been far more serious.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Jul 2020)

Nobody likes wearing a mask, or the stupid arrows on the ground, or anything like that.  

And true, we all have stresses at home (Except for me, I got a dog after my final relationship ended & have never looked back    )


Still.  No excuse to be acting like that much of a dumb f**k, even in a world full of them.


**I don't disagree with what your saying YTZ at all.  Just feel like a grown man shouldn't be out-behaved by a toddler, and have some more self awareness.   :2c:


----------



## Remius (9 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> It is quite possible that under normal conditions the guy is not as he appears on the video.  His diatribe is almost incoherent and it is disjointed.  It appears to me to be more a classic road-rage outburst and I think we will see more of it.  People are reaching the end of their tethers and are unable to find normality in which to sit down, draw in a few deep breathes and smell the roses or something else pleasurable.  The masks are a visible reminder that things aren't normal.  He was correct in that the virus did originate in China.  Possibly he has been either laid off or on reduced hours.  His kids (if any) have been constantly questioning, perhaps he doesn't like the government giving money away.  There are a myriad little irritants that keep combining and he doesn't see an escape.  Pressure builds and he blows.  Not really racist I don't think, the clerk was just the first available target.  Fortunately, we don't have carry permits here in Canada or it could have been far more serious.



Or maybe he was just an a-hole with underlying issues being told to do something simple.  His rant about the Chinese bringing this over on purpose tells me he’s been watching too much fake news on Facebook or YouTube.  Maybe in normal circumstances he just keeps what he really thinks to himself and finally let it out.   When you tell someone to go back to China In anger and rage it’s a racist statement.  Does it make him racist?  It does on social media that’s for sure. 

Masks aren’t hard,  it’s an easy thing to do.  No different than a no shirt, no shoes, no service policy.  For those that remember that.  Nobody freaked out over that the way some are now.  Or seatbelts.

I don’t get it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2020)

When I see videos like that I wonder if perhaps (sometimes) it's not a matter of systemic racism where all these people hate other races but simply a matter of people being assholes because we as a society have gotten off on being an asshole for the last 30 years. maybe instead of being borderline supremacists these people are just dumb and can't articulate their emotions/feelings/thoughts very well so they go for the lowest hanging fruit and attack someones race?

Big of a tangent about treating people bad.

30 years ago Americans Funniest Home videos hit the screens. 30 seasons, ran for 10 years and what were some of the most popular videos? People getting hurt.

20 Years ago Survivor hit the screens and ushered in the era of reality TV. It's still going. Do we tune in for the slick survival skills? Or to watch the drama, fighting and backstabbing.

Cops ran from 1989 to 2 months ago. Lots of TV shows center on the suffering or humiliation of others (bachelor, big brother).

We also love our memes. Subtle (and not so subtle) ways to say fuck you to people and laugh at them or their misfortune. Look at Milnet.ca's political cartoon thread. Basically a meme thread with left and right saying fuck you to each other while smiling.

We brought up Cpl Bloggins. I've mentioned it here before but when you see what Cpl Bloggins actually posted it wasn't really bad. He'd make a comment like "girls in the military, right?" or something fairly ambiguous and the real vitriol came from* everyone* else. He'd light a match and everyone else would throw gas on. _Dumb._ Like the sgt or WO in DEUs posting under his own name calling a Capt a c**t and making fun of her name who got nailed with a $1000 charge IIRC. Raging misogynist or someone who's been taught (conditioned?) to think that being hateful to someone else is acceptable.


I could be way off in left field or totally wrong but I think in a lot of these cases it could be because people just forgot how to respect and treat each other. A lot of people are just shitty to each other.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2020)

Stumbled across this video from Steven Crowder. It's an interesting perspective. He believes that free speech means that someone can say whatever they want and if I understand his perspective it's up to the public to ostracize said person, not up to the government to censor them.

The back and forth between Steven and the german woman is interesting too. Watch how she doesn't think being sent to jail for what you say is a form of censorship. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS54CyMLXmI


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Jul 2020)

So out of millions of people, some are very unpleasant.  In an age in which almost everyone has a hand-held video camera and the means to publish to a wide audience, many get to see these unpleasant people.


----------



## YZT580 (9 Jul 2020)

well spoken Jarnhamer.


----------



## CBH99 (9 Jul 2020)

As much as I don't like the fact that everybody has a smart phone these days (I've really tried to adhere to a 30-day phone detox, which, if you haven't tried, I highly recommend doing what you can)

It IS nice that people like this can be recorded & publicly shamed.  



Not in a petty sense.  But perhaps he'll see the video, and realize "Wow" - and have some self awareness, and possibly some self improvement come of it.


----------



## mariomike (9 Jul 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> It IS nice that people like this can be recorded & publicly shamed.



Peel Police are investigating it as a "hate incident". They are trying to identify him.

Twitter people say they are not only going "name and shame" him, they are going to forward the video to his employer ( if he has one ).

There is a Gofundme account set up for the affected employee(s).

Makes one wonder, if that is how he feels about Asian people, why shop at T and T?


----------



## YZT580 (10 Jul 2020)

probably doesn't feel that way about Asians in particular.  There are tons of folks out there who don't like anyone who doesn't belong to their own culture.  Thus we have racial ghettos and those people who locate in Bramalea because they are Hindu and Bramalea has a large minority of Hindus are every bit as racist as this chap.  They are just more polite about it.


----------



## Xylric (10 Jul 2020)

We had my niece and her grandmother visit for the day to give my brother and his wife a quiet day of work. I spent two hours watching a news program from Kenya with my sister's mother (ten years they've been together, and I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that there's no such thing as in-laws in their culture), along with several dozen commercials.

Many, if not all of the products being advertised were either brands we have available here (Coca-Cola, for example) or an equivalent local product (such as telecommunications). Not a person of European ancestry to be seen in any of them. Every single one of those advertisements were functionally the same as the ones we would see here, even accounting for differences in culture. The way the news is handled in Kenya is very, very different from what we grow up with here, because there is a general lack of what I would call "commentary." The news focuses on the facts, and just the facts. Not a talking head to be seen.

My sister's mother noticed the utter curiosity with which I was watching the program, and so I simply asked her a question which has been bugging me ever since I was introduced to my sister and her family. I asked her about her opinion on the idea that exists here in Canada and elsewhere about how the "personal is political." She didn't understand the concept, because her worldview is so heavily focused on the community itself that it just came across as child-like selfishness. An interesting perspective, to say the least.

So I asked if my brother ever dealt with racism when he was visiting Kenya, and the response I got was essentially "Only when haggling in the marketplaces, because people would see his white skin, recognize that he is from a land swimming in wealth but not in sense, and deal with him accordingly." The interesting thing is, my brother is a master negotiator, and actually *enjoys* haggling, so he surprised more than a few merchants in the process.

When you seek only mutually beneficial interactions, racism disintegrates.


----------



## CBH99 (10 Jul 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Peel Police are investigating it as a "hate incident". They are trying to identify him.
> 
> Twitter people say they are not only going "name and shame" him, they are going to forward the video to his employer ( if he has one ).
> 
> ...




Haha, that's a good point MM.  I'm sure there's a Safeway somewhere nearby he could have gone to


----------



## mariomike (10 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> probably doesn't feel that way about Asians in particular.



I doubt Peel Police care much about his feelings. 

It's the words out of his mouth they are investigating as a hate incident.



> Peel Regional Police
> 
> This is being investigated as a hate-motivated incident. Anyone with information, such as the identity of the man, is asked to call 905-453-3311 ext. 1133 or Crime Stoppers.
> https://twitter.com/AkhilMooken/status/1281028737216233472


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When I see videos like that I wonder if perhaps (sometimes) it's not a matter of systemic racism where all these people hate other races but simply a matter of people being assholes because we as a society have gotten off on being an ******* for the last 30 years. maybe instead of being borderline supremacists these people are just dumb and can't articulate their emotions/feelings/thoughts very well so they go for the lowest hanging fruit and attack someones race?
> 
> Big of a tangent about treating people bad.
> 
> ...



Actually the decline started in the 70s with TV commercials showing parents playing board games with kids. The parents lost every time and were made to look utterly stupid.

If it was Dad versus the kids Dad always ended up losing to the kids and was made to look like an (Can I say this) idiot.

If it was Dad versus Mom , Dad lost. Every time. 

 :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jul 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Actually the decline started in the 70s with TV commercials showing parents playing board games with kids. The parents lost every time and were made to look utterly stupid.
> 
> If it was Dad versus the kids Dad always ended up losing to the kids and was made to look like an (Can I say this) idiot.
> 
> ...



Dude, have you got a surveillance camera hidden in my house somewhere? #unofailure


----------



## Eaglelord17 (10 Jul 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I doubt Peel Police care much about his feelings.
> 
> It's the words out of his mouth they are investigating as a hate incident.



That is terrifying. The government should NEVER be trying to determine what you can or cannot say, or what you can or cannot think. It is a violation of our Charter Rights (Right to Freedom of thought, opinion and expression), and should not be tolerated.

The talk coming out of the government in recent months is unacceptable. They believe they have the right to force their opinions and thoughts on others. Such as stating they will root out racism wherever it is found (not that they can even agree on a definition as to what is or isn't racist). That is not the role of the government in a democracy and reminds me of such things as the residential schools where the government believed they were doing what was best for society.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jul 2020)

Thanks YZT.



I wonder a sort of Salem 1692 thing will happen with "hate crimes". 

* Suspect identified after Pride crosswalk defaced outside West Vancouver police station* 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pride-crosswalk-west-vancouver-1.5642701

"gesture of hate"
The guy spun his tires on a crosswalk. 

Are we running a risk of potent, powerful words like hate and racism becoming overused and muddled?


----------



## mariomike (10 Jul 2020)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> That is terrifying.



Even more terrifying if / when the internet identifies the individual, and forwards the video to his employer. 

( Depending, of course, if he has an employer, and who the employer is. )



> Police are now investigating the incident as hate-motivated and have identified a suspect. They are urging him to seek council and turn himself in.
> https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/prime-minister-weighs-in-on-video-of-racist-anti-mask-rant-at-toronto-supermarket-1.5019056?cache=piqndqvkh


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Jul 2020)

There's already a precedent with someone being fired for actions not related to their employment being given their job back. Remember the FHRITP guy? Besides, if the whole point of reconciliation is that people learn and grow, what does ruining a person's complete life and livelihood have them learn? Not that I'm excusing his behaviour, but a certain degree of proportionality is required.


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jul 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There's already a precedent with someone being fired for actions not related to their employment being given their job back. Remember the FHRITP guy? Besides, if the whole point of reconciliation is that people learn and grow, what does ruining a person's complete life and livelihood have them learn? Not that I'm excusing his behaviour, but a certain degree of proportionality is required.



You run the risk of turning them into a zealot. If blowing up a man's hut can turn him from a moderate to a radical, blowing up his life by doxing him and, by extension his family, could have every bit the same result.


----------



## mariomike (10 Jul 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Remember the FHRITP guy?



For those who do not,

Harrasment in public..Hydro One fires "jerk" for reporter prank   
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119361.150
8 pages.

Shawn "made amends". "including voluntary sensitivity training and a donation to the White Ribbon campaign." 
He also apologised in writing to the reporter.

He was also a member of a union. The union took it to arbitration, and won.

Legal experts at the time said, "a non-unionized worker in his shoes would have a much harder time regaining their job."

A key factor was that his job description did not involve interaction with the public.

In firing decisions where I worked for off-duty conduct, the arbitrator has sided with the City. The arbitrator ruled we are held to a high standard of professional conduct - even off duty.  

They may, or may not, be offered a lower paying job in another City department.

Most of the off-duty career suicides I am aware of have been via social media.

Maybe the T and T guy is un/self-employed, or has a very tolerant employer.



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'm sure there's a Safeway somewhere nearby he could have gone to



 :goodpost:


----------



## BeyondTheNow (10 Jul 2020)

While not speaking solely about this video on its own, but more generally of similar instances, I don’t entertain the sentiment of ‘just a bad day, maybe a person is stressed out/extenuating circumstances’ etc. as touched on earlier in the thread.

When we’re stressed/angry/in a heightened state of emotional turbulence (for whatever reason) a series of functions occurring in our bodies includes heighten cortisol levels which reduce neurons to our prefrontal cortex. In short, we’re quite literally incapable of thinking straight—we typically exact poorer judgement in those moments. (Some become stressed out more easily than others. NOTE: Again, speaking generally. We know that training exists related to certain fields to better cope with stressful situations.)

Anyway, without getting too much into the physiology of why some react how they do during crisis, the bottom line is that racial slurs/comments with racial undertones, derogatory statements, elevated threats, actions portraying unbalanced and intense entitlement, etc (think the Costco guy and the Amy Coopers of the world) don’t occur unless the person already maintains those thoughts/feelings/beliefs when calm—when they’re able to think before they speak—when they’re more adequately able to control their thought/mouth filters.

Yes, we’ve all said things we don’t mean when angry. But the majority don’t resort to bringing ethnicity, at any level, into the argument/conflict.


----------



## brihard (10 Jul 2020)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> That is terrifying. The government should NEVER be trying to determine what you can or cannot say, or what you can or cannot think. It is a violation of our Charter Rights (Right to Freedom of thought, opinion and expression), and should not be tolerated.
> 
> The talk coming out of the government in recent months is unacceptable. They believe they have the right to force their opinions and thoughts on others. Such as stating they will root out racism wherever it is found (not that they can even agree on a definition as to what is or isn't racist). That is not the role of the government in a democracy and reminds me of such things as the residential schools where the government believed they were doing what was best for society.



Really? There are absolutely cases in which an expression can be a criminal offense or civil wrong, and rightly so. You don't get to utter threats (S.264.1 CC). You don't get to advocate genocide (S. 318 CC) or wilfully incite hate (S. 319 CC). You don't get to defame by libel and slander (civil torts). 

This is not the government forcing opinions or thoughts on people. It's the government determining that some things are concretely harmful.

Beyond that there is the more nebulous world in which hate motivation is a factor in sentencing. Other than Ss. 318 and 319, 'hate' does not form any basis for offences in its own right, but where something that is already illegal anyway (e.g., assaults, threats, causing a disturbance, mischief, etc) is hate motivated, it can be considered an aggravating factor in sentencing (S. 718.2(a)(i) CC) , in order to deter people from committing things that are already independently criminal, because they think it's OK to do that because they hate an identifiable group.

So no, the state has not gone and newly criminalised anything because of new societal beliefs around what hate constitutes. 'hate crimes' are basically not a thing in Canada outside of the narrow scope of Ss. 318 and 319 which are both extremely rarely used. Instead the state has said 'if you insist on being a crappy person and do something that's already illegal because you hate a group, that will be a consideration in your sentencing'. This will not affect anyone who doesn't commit a crime.

There is the entirely separate realm of the various human rights commissions/tribunals at federal or provincial levels, but those don't involve police or criminal sanction and are outside the scope of this thread so far.


----------



## mariomike (10 Jul 2020)

Looks like his wife ( or caregiver? ) is trying to steer him off-camera.  https://twitter.com/Bauhini78869713/status/1279867266373423104

Not wearing a mask either.

Love her tolerant expression. 

Sounds like some Espanol thrown in.

May be best for all concerned if he waits in the car, and let her go in.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jul 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Really? There are absolutely cases in which an expression can be a criminal offense or civil wrong, and rightly so. You don't get to utter threats (S.264.1 CC). You don't get to advocate genocide (S. 318 CC) or wilfully incite hate (S. 319 CC). You don't get to defame by libel and slander (civil torts).
> 
> This is not the government forcing opinions or thoughts on people. It's the government determining that some things are concretely harmful.
> 
> ...



I don't often watch TV series, but I recall one episode of 'Life on Mars' where Jason O'Mara plays a cop who travels back in time - from 2008 to 1973 - and meets up with another (1973 version) cop, played by Harvey Keitel.

They're looking over the details of a crime and O'Mara says 'This looks like a Hate Crime!'. 

Keitel looks at him strangely and says ... As opposed to an "I really, really love you crime?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars_(American_TV_series)


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Jul 2020)

The BBC version was way, way better. As was the follow-on, Ashes to Ashes. Rumour has it that there's a third series in the works for UK tv.


----------



## Weinie (11 Jul 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Really? There are absolutely cases in which an expression can be a criminal offense or civil wrong, and rightly so. You don't get to utter threats (S.264.1 CC). You don't get to advocate genocide (S. 318 CC) or wilfully incite hate (S. 319 CC). You don't get to defame by libel and slander (civil torts).
> 
> *This is not the government forcing opinions or thoughts on people. It's the government determining that some things are concretely harmful.*
> 
> ...



But that is not "freedom." Ideologically, notwithstanding any utterance I make, the "state" should not have any right to curtail it, or censor it.


----------



## mariomike (11 Jul 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> But that is not "freedom." Ideologically, notwithstanding any utterance I make, the "state" should not have any right to curtail it, or censor it.




Loblaws,  T and T's parent company, had this to say about his "freedom".



> Not only is this person not welcome in our T&T stores anymore, he is not welcome in any of our 2,400 grocery stores or Shoppers Drug Mart locations either.
> https://www.facebook.com/LoblawsON/


----------



## brihard (11 Jul 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> But that is not "freedom." Ideologically, notwithstanding any utterance I make, the "state" should not have any right to curtail it, or censor it.



No? You feel you should be free to threaten, to defame, to incite, without legal sanction? On mulling it further I thought of another couple of criminalized instances of expression: Filing false police reports (Public Mischief, S.140 CC) and Perjury (S.131 CC). Also very reasonable instances in which freedom of expression is not absolute.

Don't forget, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms starts with S.1, the 'reasonable limitations' clause. "The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." So, built right into our constitutional rights document is a recognition that the reality of human interactions with each other and the State is such that there will need to be limits- the old cliche of screaming 'fire' in a crowded theatre, etc. We have quite considerable freedoms, and a pretty rigorous system to protect them. But there is no blanket freedom to say whatever you want free from consequence if it transgresses something serious enough that the legislature has passed law and which law has survived Charter challenge.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (11 Jul 2020)

Even without Section 1, no right or freedom is absolute: One person's freedoms or rights stops where another's start and the courts, even without government involvement in the case, will strive to strike a proper balance between competing rights and freedoms.

Just to give a for instance: We have freedom of religion on one side and the right to life and safety of the person on the other. Yet, a muslim could not kill another muslim in Canada because he blasphemed the prophet. It is still murder and they (well, he, because the second muslim would have a hard time indicating he agreed to it on religious grounds) cannot claim their freedom of religion as a valid defence.

Same hing happens, under common law no less (it's not in the Canadian Charter, though it is found in many provincial Charters of rights), for the right to one's reputation where it conflicts with freedom of expression, thus we have defamation laws - which BTW every country in the world has regardless of the strength of their "freedom of speech". This last part is proof enough that nowhere on the planet are any rights or freedom absolute.


----------



## Weinie (11 Jul 2020)

My thinking was more along the lines of "I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to make an *** of yourself. - Oscar Wilde." The public humiliation, scorn, and contempt so engendered, is to my mind, the real defender/arbiter of freedom of expression, and defines what is, and is not, acceptable in a society. And, it allows for the evolution of thought. What was acceptable thought in 1900 is sometimes acceptable today, other thinking from that period has been ridiculed and discarded. That some of it has been codified into law is both understandable, and frightening. Societies collectively should determine what is acceptable freedom of expression, a state, or government, even one democratically elected, goes there at their (and our) peril.


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jul 2020)

Now here's a problem.  CTV is carrying a story out of WG where U.S. military dependants have been targeted because of a) COVID19 and b) their American license plates and told to go back from whence they came.  By the logic expressed in this string, this situation should be addressed as a hate crime or as being racist or perhaps that only applies when the skin is a different colour?


----------



## Retired AF Guy (11 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Now here's a problem.  CTV is carrying a story out of WG where U.S. military dependants have been targeted because of a) COVID19 and b) their American license plates and told to go back from whence they came.  By the logic expressed in this string, this situation should be addressed as a hate crime or as being racist or perhaps that only applies when the skin is a different colour?



"WG"??


----------



## Old Sweat (11 Jul 2020)

Don't forget there was some very unfavourable press reports about Americans who entered Canada in order to transit to Alaska, and then were observed or apprehended in various locations not on a direct route to that state. Could there be a relationship, partial or not, here?


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jul 2020)

must be army, WG or more correctly CYWG is the ICAO designation for Winnipeg.


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jul 2020)

And there is a definite correlation between the attitude towards the Alaskan transients and the WG situation and that I believe can be attributed to fear and the uncertainty created by the quarantines. People are reaching their limits and are reacting in ways that they would normally never consider.  It is the same emotional instability found road rage.  They are looking for their own safe space and can't find it.  You have the social breakdown in the US and the news reports that have thousands (exaggeration) rioting and then dying in the streets.  Every American is infected with COVID so get them out of our safe place.  COVID originated in China so every person of oriental appearance is infected so send them back to China.  IMHO we are experiencing a break down of all our social norms. and we are going to witness more and more people lashing out.  Suicide rates will likely increase as will marital breakdowns, family assaults and the like.  If we could get it off the 6:00 news it would certainly help.  Having the PM standing up pontificating every day contributes immensely. (also the other political leaders)  There is no feel-good message in anything people are hearing and they are losing the ability to cope.


----------



## dimsum (11 Jul 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> If we could get it off the 6:00 news it would certainly help.  Having the PM standing up pontificating every day contributes immensely. (also the other political leaders)  There is no feel-good message in anything people are hearing and they are losing the ability to cope.



Problem is if people stop talking about it, the public forgets about the precautions and cases increase again.  Hell, people are being more lax now, and it's still talked about everywhere.


----------



## Xylric (12 Jul 2020)

I had a thought that I would love to have people's analysis on, as it is derived from what I have been working on for the past fifteen years.

*Today's 'wokeness' is tomorrow's insomnia.*


----------



## CBH99 (12 Jul 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Problem is if people stop talking about it, the public forgets about the precautions and cases increase again.  Hell, people are being more lax now, and it's still talked about everywhere.





It seems a tricky balancing act...

On the one hand, you want people to be generally well informed.  On the other hand, you don't want to create a panic or contribute to a society that breaks down due to fear, frustration, or a loss of faith in government.

_In my own personal opinion_, our mainstream media is a primary cause for society behaving the way it is.



As others have mentioned, many news outlets from other parts of the world just report the facts about a situation, and move on.  It isn't 24hrs a day, with the requirement to fill that 24hrs with 'something' even if nothing is happening.  So?  They bring on 'experts', have talking heads hosting shows that clearly lean in a certain direction, filter information depending on the bias of the media agency, and hire talking heads to tell people what to think.  

Staying interesting 24hrs a day is incredibly difficult, especially if nothing interesting happens that day.  So?  They have to make it interesting, usually to the detriment of factual integrity.

**Lately, I've really enjoyed WION of all outlets.  Who knew?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX5rZVH-9hY

^^  This is just an example of one of their 'shows' - which never seem to be longer than maybe 7 minutes, and tend to look at issues harshly but objectively.  I'm sure there could have been better examples to post, but hopefully it reinforces what other members here have said also - media in other countries tend to be more factual, less sensationalized.



100 years from now, it wouldn't surprise me if people look back on this 'transition' in society when it's taught in school, and not ask themselves "Why didn't they just shut off the media, if they were causing so many problems?  If they were so clearly biased?  If they were so non-credible with the facts, which is the opposite of their purpose?"

They won't understand that the mainstream media has become a foundation of our society, even though society knows it's toxic and garbage.  Intellectual folks - and by that, I mean folks with common sense and the initiative to verify facts on their own and behave within the bounds of reason - aren't the problem.  

It's the unbelievable number of stupid people that, prior to 1950 - wouldn't have survived past the age of 20 on grounds they are just too stupid.   



Whether it's racism in the US, and the resulting civil unrest.  Never ending COVID news, speculation, and nonsense.  Never ending US Presidential drama and nonsense, etc etc - it's a never ending 'IV drip' of sensationalized, bad, biased information that can cause the easily influenced person - aka a majority of society that doesn't understand they are being misled - to behaving in ways that truly don't make sense.    :2c:


----------



## OceanBonfire (15 Jul 2020)

> *Ex-officer suing RCMP says she didn't understand racism until joining force*
> 
> When Margorie Hudson joined the RCMP in Manitoba in 1979 as one of the first Indigenous women on the force, she said she was shocked by the racist comments she heard from fellow officers.
> 
> ...





> *B.C. RCMP officer suspended over racially offensive content posted on Facebook*
> 
> A B.C. RCMP officer's suspension and subsequent resignation following a complaint that alleges he posted "racially insensitive, rage-fuelled and anti-government" material on Facebook is highlighting what some say is a flawed process of raising concerns about police conduct.
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (16 Jul 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> But that is not "freedom." Ideologically, notwithstanding any utterance I make, the "state" should not have any right to curtail it, or censor it.





			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> You feel you should be free to threaten, to defame, to incite, without legal sanction?



Apparently not. ( Update on the T and T guy )



> Peel Police
> 
> Wednesday July 15, 2020
> 
> ...


----------



## CBH99 (16 Jul 2020)

Good investigative work   


We all have to be accountable.  I'm glad they tracked him down


----------



## mariomike (16 Jul 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Good investigative work
> 
> 
> We all have to be accountable.  I'm glad they tracked him down



It's not the ticket I would be worried about. Doesn't sound like a hanging offence. I would be trying to figure out how to explain it to my employer.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Jul 2020)

haha, true MM  


Although, my imagination would have me pretty darn nervous.  "Excuse me sir, mind coming down to the police station for a chat about a hate crime?"   


I'd be a wee bit nervous...  and now that the footage is out there, AND his name, your right.  Might be time to move soon, and make sure that resume looks spiffy


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jul 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'd be a wee bit nervous...  and now that the footage is out there, AND his name, your right.  Might be time to move soon, and make sure that resume looks spiffy



Suspend him with pay for a few years while the police investigate the incident.


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## mariomike (16 Jul 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Although, my imagination would have me pretty darn nervous.  "Excuse me sir, mind coming down to the police station for a chat about a hate crime?"
> 
> 
> I'd be a wee bit nervous...  and now that the footage is out there, AND his name, your right.  Might be time to move soon, and make sure that resume looks spiffy



Probably depends on the employer, assuming he has one.

Mine would tolerate almost anything, unless you became a public disgrace.

They usually got transferred to Water Division, or some other department.


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## YZT580 (16 Jul 2020)

I watched two individuals go at it in the hardware store of all places just yesterday.  She lit into him because he went to an open cash register, coming from the east in the store but there were 2 individuals waiting in line for checkout but the line was to the west and not aligned with the tills: an honest error  on his part.  Her phraseology to him was much less than polite whilst his retort was suitably demeaning with reference her appearance and general deportment.  Both were insulting and if one had been of a different skin tone would have fit into the scenario at T & T's nicely.  In brief, they both lost it.  Should they therefore be charged?  The gentleman from his appearance was somewhat claustrophobic, he tore off his mask almost as soon as he left the store by the way.
The chap in Mississauga has ruined his life and his reputation, may lose his job and faces jail time.  His conduct was deplorable and his words were definitely insulting but I have heard noncoms question a person's heredity, suggest that an individual's ancestors were not human; using expressions equally demeaning, so should we not be prepared to cut a little slack or do we call out the constabulary every time a person loses his temper.  (thereby demonstrating that he was only human)  Regardless of what happens legally he has already been tried, convicted and sentenced.  Every child was intimately acquainted with the expression 'sticks and stones may break my bones..' Perhaps we need to apply that thought to ourselves as adults.
Keep the courts for real racism such as swastikas on the synagogue and letting pigs lose in the mosque.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jul 2020)

[quote author=YZT580]
Keep the courts for real racism such as swastikas on the synagogue and letting pigs lose in the mosque. 
[/quote]

I'm still curious about the BC crosswalk incident.

If I pull up to the pride rainbow painted crosswalk in Pembroke and peel out should that be investigated as a hate crime? or hate "incident"?

Is that a valuable use of time for the OPP? News worthy? 
Maybe have my name splashed all over the news and get the CDS get engaged and releasing an official tweet?

Does it seem like the official reaction is to publicize someones name and go after their employer to try and get the fired?


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## OldSolduer (16 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does it seem like the official reaction is to publicize someones name and go after their employer to try and get the fired?



You have just won the net for 10 minutes - seriously,  every minor transgression seems to provoke the idiot crowd with howls of rage and chants of "he/she should be fired".


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Jul 2020)

I am waiting for the day that some employer has to pay out big time for firing someone over a social media incident. Hopefully that cost is well publicized so employer think long and hard. The Twitterverse has a very short memory and companies that don't play the game rarely suffer long term. At most say "Yes we will look into it and decide what are the appropriate steps" and then shut up.


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## Brad Sallows (16 Jul 2020)

More likely is that some employer will pay out big time for allowing harassment of the kind described by former NYT employee Bari Weiss.  Immediately after that will be a handful of firings by employers that don't want to pay out for allowing harassment.  Then things will settle down.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Jul 2020)

A nice twist on the whole 'hate crime' thing, brought to you by: Canada 



Halton police face public backlash and say ‘Nazi monument’ graffiti in Oakville no longer considered a hate crime

By David LeaInside

Halton police say the defacing of what some are calling a “Nazi monument” in an Oakville cemetery is no longer being investigated as a hate-motivated offence.

In a press release issued Friday, July 17, Det. Sgt. Barrett Gabriel of the Oakville Criminal Investigations Bureau said that, when police began investigating a June 22 incident, which saw a memorial within the St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery, vandalized with graffiti, it was deemed hate-motivated in that they believed it was targeting Ukrainians in general or Ukrainian members of the nearby cultural centre.

The target of the graffiti turned out to be a memorial to the 1st Ukrainian Division, which was created following the reformation of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, a paramilitary force under Hitler and the Nazis, responsible for terror in Germany and its occupied territories.

The division fought with the Germans against the Soviet Red Army during the Second World War.

Halton police faced a significant social media backlash over the perception vandalism to a Nazi monument was being investigated as a hate-motivated offence. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/07/17/halton-police-face-public-backlash-and-say-nazi-monument-graffiti-in-oakville-no-longer-considered-a-hate-crime.html


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## mariomike (18 Jul 2020)

> Graffiti on monument near Toronto commemorating Nazi SS division investigated as hate crime





> Halton Regional Police said in a press release today that the message written on a controversial monument in Oakville’s St. Volodymyr Church cemetery in June is no longer being considered a hate offence.
> https://oakvillenews.org/st-volodymyr-vandalism-no-longer-hate-motivated-offence/


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## LittleBlackDevil (18 Jul 2020)

By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".

The "hate crime" provisions of the _Criminal Code_ do not specify that you're only prohibited from inciting hatred against certain groups, or that you're not allowed to incite hatred against Nazis. I think that this incident highlights some of the problems with "hate crime" legislation ... who decides who is exempt from protection from these laws?

I note that the beheading of Catholics statues in Sudbury was never treated as hate crime from the start (cf. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/half-a-dozen-religious-statues-beheaded-in-sudbury-1.5005486). So, inciting hatred against Nazis and Catholics okay ... who else is it okay to hate? Why is a double-standard appropriate?


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## mariomike (18 Jul 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".



Halton Police Media Release

CLARIFICATION re: Investigation at St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville
https://www.haltonpolice.ca/about/media/view_release.php?releaseID=6574


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## Cloud Cover (18 Jul 2020)

A super role model and advisor to the Province in Ontario is being taken down by the left: the reason? All people and industries need to be responsible for their own conduct and held responsible when they act irrationally. Of course, BLM, academics, some political leaders and the rest are having none of that, even if the advisor is a racial minority: 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/article-ontarios-new-advocate-for-community-opportunities-is-getting-mixed/?


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## Jarnhamar (18 Jul 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> A super role model and advisor to the Province in Ontario is being taken down by the left: the reason? All people and industries need to be responsible for their own conduct and held responsible when they act irrationally. Of course, BLM, academics, some political leaders and the rest are having none of that, even if the advisor is a racial minority:
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/article-ontarios-new-advocate-for-community-opportunities-is-getting-mixed/?



I find him pretty enjoyable to listen to. Very smart and articulate.



> Jamil Jivani tends to start his own story with how he was a young Black man who fared poorly in high school but then, counter to expectation, bootstrapped his way to law school at Yale University. He uses this anecdote in his book, interviews and speeches.



Yea I can see why they would want to take him down.


This is a pretty good Ted Talk from him a few years ago where he speaks about racial profiling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCX_Th-IjjE


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## Kilted (18 Jul 2020)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".
> 
> The "hate crime" provisions of the _Criminal Code_ do not specify that you're only prohibited from inciting hatred against certain groups, or that you're not allowed to incite hatred against Nazis. I think that this incident highlights some of the problems with "hate crime" legislation ... who decides who is exempt from protection from these laws?
> 
> I note that the beheading of Catholics statues in Sudbury was never treated as hate crime from the start (cf. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/half-a-dozen-religious-statues-beheaded-in-sudbury-1.5005486). So, inciting hatred against Nazis and Catholics okay ... who else is it okay to hate? Why is a double-standard appropriate?




Well the Monument is specifically for a Ukrainian unit, in a Ukrainian graveyard.  I've done a bit of digging in their history.  Apparently they are well respected in the Ukraine because they were seen as liberators, because they were fighting the Soviets.  What does an occupied country do when another country forces the occupying country out of their lands?  They just happened to be on the losing side.  The Division has never been found to be guilty of any war crimes by any tribunal.  That being said, I'm sure that if this was on public property it would be coming down pretty soon, if it was ever allowed to be put up.  I'm sure that their will be pressure for the cemetery to remove it, but it is on private property, so they can do what they want with it.


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## YZT580 (18 Jul 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I find him pretty enjoyable to listen to. Very smart and articulate.
> 
> Yea I can see why they would want to take him down.
> 
> ...


he
They don't have much choice.  It is either expel him or agree with him and that will never happen even if what he is saying is fundamentally correct.  He seems to be using his position to draw attention to the destruction of the family


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## OceanBonfire (29 Jul 2020)

> *Investigation finds multiple employees spread a racist, violent email at Transport Canada*
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## Jed (29 Jul 2020)

If you really want to see how awful people treat each other just watch the Judicial Committee clown show where they have asked AG Barr to testify than proceed to grill him for hours without letting him make replies to the unceasing allegations tossed his way.

Sorry for the tangent, just noting how people treat each other in Canada and in the US and elsewher.


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## Good2Golf (29 Jul 2020)

Jed said:
			
		

> If you really want to see how awful people treat each other just watch the Judicial Committee clown show where they have asked AG Barr to testify than proceed to grill him for hours without letting him make relies to the unceasing allegations tossed his way.



Ummm...David Lametti is Canada’s Attorney General.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Jul 2020)

Canada's militarized police forces face defunding and 'de-tasking', experts say 

As a statement of police power, the armoured rescue vehicle that Halifax Regional Police had planned to buy for more than $300,000 spoke volumes about the militarization of law enforcement agencies in Canada.

The 8,000-kilogram, armour-plated truck  — equipped with a rotating roof hatch, eight gun ports and a powered battering ram — looked like it was ready for the worst of war zones.

However, when the purchase was scuttled by city council last month, Mayor Mike Savage made it clear the brawny 
vehicle had become a symbol of oppression, particularly for Halifax's Black community. The mayor said the money would be used instead for anti-Black racism programs.

"There has been in this province a history of systemic racism, and we have to do better," Savage said at the time.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canadas-militarized-police-forces-face-defunding-and-de-tasking-experts-say/ar-BB16Pkkv


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jul 2020)

[quote author=daftandbarmy]equipped with a rotating roof hatch
[/quote]

So police can stand up there and spin around in circles?! No police force needs rotating roof hatches in Canada.


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## Canuck_Jock (30 Jul 2020)

An interesting discussion on a sensitive topic. I'm now a social science postgrad student after 20yr forces career, it raises a lot of issues and questions. 

FWIW my opinion is that, by and large, racism and discrimination is decreasing in our societies: a good thing. This is from education, evolving social attitudes to race and general exposure to, and acceptance of, other ethnicities and cultures. And let’s not forget goodwill goes a long way. That racism and prejudice exists can be beyond doubt. Some attitudes change slowly, some are just knuckle draggers. But make no mistake, our societies (speaking here from UK) have undergone demographic change unprecedented in our histories – all in the space of one human lifetime. And we have done so largely peacefully and with acceptance and accommodation. 

There are a few aspects over the current debate that I find interesting, particularly from an Info Ops point of view. What role does the media play in shaping racial narratives? It is apparent that many mainstream media organisations have been taking almost an activist role, beyond the norm of ‘editorial line’ or of reporting fact, or separate opinion. Rather, ‘opinionated fact’. Although not common, where how does responsible journalism account for Jussie Smollet, Nicholas Sandmann, that non-incident in London Ont 2016 etc? So, when we see a video of some guy going off the deep end in a supermarket in Mississauga, is this a random, rare incident or the tip of a huge racist iceberg? What is media obligation in these circumstance?

Another interesting aspect is that the latest anti-racist wave of protests by now largely coalescing around the English* speaking countries has roots, in part, around the recent ‘radicalisation’ of white liberals on the issue of race. I would recommend the research in particular by Zach Goldberg https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-white-saviors, a doctoral student at Georgia State. All his data taken from surveys but showing significant shift in past decade on white liberal attitudes – dubbed in one Vox article ‘The Great Awokening’. For example, research indicates white libs now have a net preference for other ethnicities than their own – Bill Maher ‘it’s like discovering your mom likes the neighbour’s kid more than you…’ In this, has racism actually increased or our perception & sensitivity to it? More importantly can individual/societal racism ever be quantified domestically or internationally? How do we compare racism internationally – a man on a racist rant in a Canadian supermarket compared with what abroad? In many countries discrimination in favour of your in group is unremarkable. 
  
Interested in all considered opinions. 

* Macron made a national broadcast early, stating there was a lot to do to tackle racism in France. However, he made clear no historic names would be changed or statues removed. English/French cultural difference?


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## Canuck_Jock (30 Jul 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >First off, does anyone agree with my short analysis, and if so then what is the solution for the US.
> 
> No.  You proceed from false premises.  You clearly don't understand what fascism is, beyond being a word that people throw around because it sounds nasty.  As long as the people who claim to be in search of solutions are determined to misuse language (fascism, racism) and redefine words which have become largely pejorative in order to include their political opponents, no solutions will be possible because the real problems will be unidentified.  (I concede it is possible that someone could accidentally fix a problem unintentionally.)  Trump is basically in the muddled middle, and is as much a political weathervane as Joe Biden.  How soon people forget that one of the early concerns Republicans had with Trump was that he was basically in line with Democrats.
> 
> ...



A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them. 

Similarly, America is navigating the edges of what barely constitutes centrist politics these days. Trumpian nationalists to the right, Wokist ideologues to the left, neither boding well for consensual politics.

Still, for all its faults, the United States remains the best hope for a multiracial society coexisting together. To merge a slave holding society with their former slaves on the basis of equality (even if falling short in practice) is amongst the most radical political experiments conceived. We can only hope for equity and a spirit of accommodation of all. Let's remember how many societies kept their people in slavery, or quasi-slavery (serfdom) well into the 19th Century.

Ironically in light of current events, I am hard pressed to think of a nation that takes so much pleasure in publicly displaying its defects as does the US...


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## OldSolduer (30 Jul 2020)

Canuck_Jock said:
			
		

> A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.



The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jul 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.



Once they outlived their usefulness


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## Donald H (31 Jul 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.



So to refer back to racism, the Nazis' fascist regime didn't move as quickly as you appear to be suggesting. We could refer to the rise of the German Workers' Party in 1910 or Hitler's election in 1933. 

My point being, many Americans are showing concern over Trump's voicing of his agenda at least. Have we all reached agreement on that, even though Trump's 'spoken' agenda hasn't seen fruition? 

BLM is in my opinion, the less than equal but opposite reaction. 

And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?

Those who are concerned are not exaggerating in my opinion. That is my position to debate here in the context of racism. Trump doesn't have the power to postpone or cancel the election but the Congress does. The Senate might but the Hous wouldn't. The Scotus could make it happen. The Scotus has already decided one election for the people.

Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?


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## shawn5o (31 Jul 2020)

Donald H said:
			
		

> And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?
> 
> Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?



We already sasw that type of movie with former GG Michaelle Jean (Haiti and frechcitizenship, former GG Adrienne Clarkson (Hong Kong), current leader of the opposition in parliament Andrew Scheer (American - btw, there was some news circulated that condemned his American citizenship), former leader of the NDP Tom Mulcair (French and Québec - just kidding about la belle province), cuurent (L)MP HEDY FRY Trinidadian), current MP(L) Pablo Rodríguez (Argentinia) and I'm sure there are others as well.


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## PuckChaser (1 Aug 2020)

Moved the Trump stuff to the Fractured US thread. Don't need another thread derailed because someone brought him up.


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## shawn5o (1 Aug 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Really? There are absolutely cases in which an expression can be a criminal offense or civil wrong, and rightly so. You don't get to utter threats (S.264.1 CC). You don't get to advocate genocide (S. 318 CC) or wilfully incite hate (S. 319 CC). You don't get to defame by libel and slander (civil torts).
> 
> _This is not the government forcing opinions or thoughts on people. It's the government determining that some things are concretely harmful._
> 
> ...



Well put Brihard.

s. 319(2)

I thinking of Jim Keegsta, [A]n Alberta high school teacher, was charged under s. 319(2) of the Criminal Code  with wilfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group by communicating anti semitic statements to his students. 

Per La Forest, Sopinka McLachlin JJ. (dissenting): Section 319(2) of the Code infringes the guarantee of freedom of expression.  Where, as in this case, an activity conveys or attempts to convey a meaning or message through a non violent form of expression, this activity falls within the sphere of the conduct protected by s. 2 (b).  This section protects all content of expression irrespective of the meaning or message sought to be conveyed, no matter how offensive it may be.  The government's purpose in enacting s. 319(2)  was to restrict freedom of expression by curtailing what people may say.  Section 319(2) , therefore, imposes a limit on s. 2 (b).

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/695/index.do


A small point but if dissenting SC judges disagree with other SC judges, then nothing is black and white.


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## FJAG (1 Aug 2020)

shawn5o said:
			
		

> A small point but if dissenting SC judges disagree with other SC judges, then nothing is black and white.



Well, the majority makes the black letter law but your point is very valid that varying opinions amongst the most senior judges in the country (and probably a few appeal judges below) should give us pause to think.

 :cheers:


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## shawn5o (1 Aug 2020)

Another nickle thrown in the debate about racism. I can only speak of my experiences. And I know that some members of minority groups are racist themselves.

I grew up and returned/retired back to my small town in Western Québec. The town and the reserve next door are interconnected - parts of the town and reserve are together as in shared streets, church, medical treatment (I used to get physiotherapy on the reserve), etc. Growing up, kids being kids, we would fight - English vs. French, FNs fighting English or French, and so on. By our teens, well now, things were changing. You know ... girls. Intermarriage between the three groups were common.

BTW, someone mentioned if a non-FN persons marries a FN then he/she would get the benefits. Around here, that is would not happen. My best friend, yes, he is FN and his parents treated me like family, which meant that if I got of line, Mrs would smack me with whatever was handy  :nod:

And the Mrs told us about her experiences in the residential schoolsystem. There wasn't physical/sexual violence but she was quiet about physchological or emotional violence. BTW, my wife is métisse and I do have FN in my ancestry.

I never met an African-Canadian until I went to TO. There my first girlfriend was African-Canadian. Her family treated me great. Others were not so friendly.

Fast fwd to joining the CF. Yes, there are racist/bigoted individuals in the CF. I recall a tpt clerk in Cornwallis throwing some work tickets on the floor of the office bitching about French being on the forms. I also recall a CSM and a few junior ranks who were openly racist.

The jokes about African-Canadians and FNs in the service were quite common. Then the Newfies decided they didn't want to be the butt of jokes either.

On my last live fire exercise, my fire team partner was black. We got along good. Now imagine my surprise when I went to see my ex and he comes walking out of my old house. "Be cool" he said. That he was with my ex didn't bother me. Believe me, I felt really sorry for him ;D

But when I was young, I used the N word. Not out of privilege but out of ignorance. I guess a lot of people did.

And the Jewish people. My good friend and firearms coach is Jewish. And there was a Captain who we overheard "that Jew boy will never get promoted while I'm here".


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## stellarpanther (1 Aug 2020)

I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that shit to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.


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## Xylric (1 Aug 2020)

shawn5o said:
			
		

> But when I was young, I used the N word. Not out of privilege but out of ignorance. I guess a lot of people did.



I have never used that word, but that didn't stop me from being given a serious black eye because a classmate claimed that I had called someone that term. The school I went to was very, very prompt at dealing with bullying when it involved minority students, but it took my parents bringing the police into matters for them to actually intervene with *all* bullying.


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## CBH99 (2 Aug 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that crap to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.




Agreed 100%

Let the real life Jerry Springer s**tshow stay south of the border as much as possible 


Edit:  Maybe it is just to show solidarity with what is happening south of the border?   I do agree with you though


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## Kilted (2 Aug 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I guess this is probably a good spot to put this comment.  Watching the National Anthem of the US and Canada for the NBA, ALL players and coaches etc of both teams (Raptors and Lakers), wore BLM T-shirts, held hands and kneeled for BOTH anthems.  I had no issue with them doing it for the US anthem because understand what they're trying to do, but I have issue with kneeling for ours.  My wife is preventing me from turning it off because I'm ticked at this and right now they can move out of Toronto as far as I'm concerned.  I'm pissed, don't bring that crap to this country and stir things up.  We do have some issues here but it's not even remotely similar to how things are over there.



It might not make a difference to them.  I've kind of always hoped that they would move.  They are an unfortunate distraction when both they and the Leafs make the playoffs at the same time, because their games seem to always happen at the same time, especially if you are trying to watch the game at a bar.


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