# Submariners face health risk



## Stoker (23 Feb 2007)

globalnational.com 

Wednesday, February 21, 2007

HALIFAX -- They put themselves on the front line during the Cold War -
- in the deep oceans that separated Canada from the threat of Soviet 
expansion. 

Thirty years later, Global National has uncovered a new report that 
suggests Canadians who served aboard Oberon-class submarines continue 
to face a serious threat to this day: Not from an enemy attack, but 
from a terrifying list of potential diseases from working in a toxic 
environment. 

The report, commissioned by Australia's Department of Defence and 
based on a focus group of retired Australian submariners who served 
aboard the same British-built, diesel-powered submarines, identified 
a long list of hazards associated with working onboard the boats, 
including: 

- Chemical poisoning from tar epoxies, hydrosulphites, asbestos, and 
diesel exhaust fumes;
- Air contaminants including carbon monoxide, freon and acid fumes;
- Long exposure in an environment with depleted oxygen;
- Sleep deprivation and noise pollution. 

The combination of the various hazards -- the same endured by 
Canadian submariners -- has reportedly resulted in serious illnesses 
and even fatal cases of cancer in Australia. 

Armed with the report, the Royal Canadian Legion is demanding 
Veterans Affairs Canada to examine the issue and establish 
compensation for submariners who have since become disabled after 
working long periods of time onboard Oberons. 

"Admittedly, the work was tough, and hard, and you were away for 
extended periods of time," said former Canadian submariner Jerry 
Conway. "But, nobody anticipated or was aware the potential of these 
things that are now occuring to us, such as cancer and deafness and 
respiratory problems." 

There is also new pressure on the Canadian Navy to examine the 
environment onboard the Victoria-class submarine, Canada's modern-day 
diesel-powered submarine -- also built by the British. 

In all, Canada purchased three Oberon-class submarines in the late 
1960s. A fourth was added to the fleet for training purposes, and a 
fifth boat was bought and used for spare parts. The submarines were 
retired in 2000.

© Global National 2007


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## Neill McKay (24 Feb 2007)

Stoker said:
			
		

> - Sleep deprivation and noise pollution.



Not to diminish the seriousness of some of the other issues raised, this one seems like a non-starter.


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Stoker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sleep deprivation is a reach, but noise pollution is most definitely a valid point.  The ambient noise of a running submarine could conceivably be enough to cause some hearing loss over a long period of time.  Can't expect the crew to wear hearing protection for weeks on end...


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## orange.paint (25 Feb 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Sleep deprivation is a reach, but noise pollution is most definitely a valid point.  The ambient noise of a running submarine could conceivably be enough to cause some hearing loss over a long period of time.  Can't expect the crew to wear hearing protection for weeks on end...



So where do we begin compensation for:
M-109 crews
Leopard crews
coyote crews
MLVW drivers
T-lav/M113/548 crew
Lav3 crews

And before someone jumps on line saying "well tank crews get breaks,sub crews are sumurged for a long time".Tank crews and other IFV crews spend most days either deployed inside them or working on them.
What about AC-OP'S having to hear planes all day?

Give me a break.Noise and air pollution is on the dotted line when you sign up.It's a job health hazard.As long as the proper PPE was issued (ear defenders...which they proably never used as they are irritating) its a no go IMHO.


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## Genetk44 (25 Feb 2007)

I'm just throwing this into the pot for discussion....leaveing out nuclear boats...it seems to me that diesel/electric boats, by their very nature are a health risk...by this I mean that you are dealing with a very crowded,confined space that is essentially sealed off from fresh air for many hours at a time and by its very construction is loaded with parts that give off, even passively,  potentially injurious "vapours"...not to mention diesel fumes ...so isn't it a no-brainer that they,subs, are a health risk? And that most submariners are well aware of that factor?


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

EX_RCAC_011 said:
			
		

> So where do we begin compensation for:
> M-109 crews
> Leopard crews
> coyote crews
> ...



24 hours a day?  I don't think so.



> What about AC-OP'S having to hear planes all day?



Inside a tower or IFRCC?  The coffee maker would generate more noise.   



> Give me a break.Noise and air pollution is on the dotted line when you sign up.It's a job health hazard.As long as the proper PPE was issued (ear defenders...which they proably never used as they are irritating) its a no go IMHO.



So, in other words, you expect the crew to wear PPE 24/7 while at sea?  (assuming the ambient noise is indeed at a level where hearing loss could result after prolonged exposure)


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

Genetk44 said:
			
		

> so isn't it a no-brainer that they,subs, are a health risk? And that most submariners are well aware of that factor?



If submarines were a volunteer service, you might have a point.  Unfortunately, submarines are no longer a volunteer service.


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## orange.paint (25 Feb 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> 24 hours a day?  I don't think so.
> 
> Inside a tower or IFRCC?  The coffee maker would generate more noise.



Ever been on a tank exercise?Ever ran up a Leopard pack?(The tower was a bad example,I agree there)
Just a quick real life story.A few months ago I had the in laws and my mother up for a visit.Decided to take them in to where I work.Now the wife's dad is ex EME 29E,my mother a civi from Newfoundland.Now no vehicles had been started for well over 24hrs,exhaust fans on the roof.My mothers first words was "how the heck do you work in here with the fumes."Me and father in law dam near died laughing.

Are submariners submerged for a year strait or something?(Honestly,not sarcastic)I know tank crews IFV/APC crews are usually on spring ex,summer taskings for lower ranks and fall ex.Not to mention on tour for 6 months in the vehicle.FYI our C/S drove around the earth (in km's) during a 6 month tour.And we sleep on top of our engines.

I agree it cannot be healthy.But if the CF gave them PPE and they didn't wear it 24/7 (during the time they needed to be protected)I cant see them paying out anything.Also back in the 60's did they smoke on the subs?Guarantee the government will blame it on tobacco smoke instead.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Feb 2007)

EX_RCAC_011, have you ever sailed on a diesel-electric sub, or personally known someone who served on them for an extensive period?  (For the record, my step-father spent most of a 25 year career on the Oberons, and my brother-in-law also served on them.)

I think you are oversimplifying your comparison between service in an armoured vehicle and the conditions of service in a submarine.


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## Genetk44 (25 Feb 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> If submarines were a volunteer service, you might have a point.  Unfortunately, submarines are no longer a volunteer service.


I may be wrong but isn't the CF a volunteer organization?


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

EX_RCAC_011 said:
			
		

> Ever been on a tank exercise?Ever ran up a Leopard pack?(The tower was a bad example,I agree there)
> Just a quick real life story.A few months ago I had the in laws and my mother up for a visit.Decided to take them in to where I work.Now the wife's dad is ex EME 29E,my mother a civi from Newfoundland.Now no vehicles had been started for well over 24hrs,exhaust fans on the roof.My mothers first words was "how the heck do you work in here with the fumes."Me and father in law dam near died laughing.
> 
> Are submariners submerged for a year strait or something?(Honestly,not sarcastic)I know tank crews IFV/APC crews are usually on spring ex,summer taskings for lower ranks and fall ex.Not to mention on tour for 6 months in the vehicle.FYI our C/S drove around the earth (in km's) during a 6 month tour.And we sleep on top of our engines.



I've never sailed on subs, so I'll defer to a submariner to answer questions about how much sea time they do on average.  



> I agree it cannot be healthy.But if the CF gave them PPE and they didn't wear it 24/7 (during the time they needed to be protected)I cant see them paying out anything.



I'm also not an audiologist, but I can tell you that the effects of noise exposure are cumulative.  It may well be that the noise levels aren't enough to require PPE, but may still contribute to a long term hearing loss.  It also may well be that the army types who operate the vehicles you mentioned may have a claim too...who knows?



> Also back in the 60's did they smoke on the subs?Guarantee the government will blame it on tobacco smoke instead.



I don't think they'll be blaming hearing loss on tobacco smoke  ;D


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## orange.paint (25 Feb 2007)

I believe this over simplified it.

 Chemical poisoning from tar epoxies, hydrosulphites, asbestos, and 
diesel exhaust fumes;
- Air contaminants including carbon monoxide, freon and acid fumes;
- Long exposure in an environment with depleted oxygen;
- Sleep deprivation and noise pollution. 

Compared to this: http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/v3/engraph/jobs/jobs.aspx?id=011&bhcp=1
"Armoured Soldiers in training and deployed on operations work long hours (both by day and by night), and can expect to be out of doors in all weathers, often in physically demanding conditions that include frequent exposure to loud noise, and to contaminants such as dust and combustion fumes. Inside their armoured fighting vehicles, Armoured Soldiers perform their duties in small crew compartments. Appropriate training, environmental clothing and equipment are provided, and Armoured Soldier's health, safety and morale are closely monitored."

I agree I may be over simplifying things,however even reading marine engineering tech job description it states:
"The work is sometimes very demanding, both physically and mentally. MAR ENG MECHs work in confined spaces, above and below the waterline. They must occasionally work for extended periods while exposed to uncomfortably warm compartment temperatures and high noise levels, which make the use of ear protectors mandatory"

So I will say the CF will use this kind of thing to establish IF the equipment to protect the sailors was issued.If it was,it would be up to the sailors to use it.I understand that you cant wear the freaking things 24/7,however If a crewman gets a red hot piece of metal in this eye from pounding medal,the first questions asked is "goggles?".Even though we are all guilty of not using it.

But yes I understand what your saying.


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## geo (25 Feb 2007)

Hmmm.... so, this study was conducted on the Oberon class of subs that we retired some time ago - in favor of the Victoria class of subs.

With modern air filters & scrubbers, have conditions improved or are we just setting up our submariners up for an +80% DVA pension?


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## Sub_Guy (25 Feb 2007)

This study was commissioned by the Aussies

Aft of bulkhead 56 at sea is relatively loud (snorting, and they DO wear PPE, you would be a fool not to!). The rest of the submarine is not loud, it is a stealthy machine that RELIES on being QUIET...

O-Boats spent a lot of time away, and as we all know the Vic class has yet to get off the ground


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Aft of bulkhead 56 at sea is relatively loud (snorting, and they DO wear PPE, you would be a fool not to!). The rest of the submarine is not loud, it is a stealthy machine that RELIES on being QUIET...



For the benefit of us (former) skimmer pukes... where in relation to the overall length of the sub is bulkhead 56?  And were there any racks back there?  If there were, I can't imagine anyone sleeping with PPE on...or did they?


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## Sub_Guy (25 Feb 2007)

The Engine Room and the Motor Room are aft of bulkhead 56.  It is located slightly aft of the main access hatch (just aft of the fin).  There are no racks back there, they are forward, with the exception of the wardroom which is across from the Jr Rates mess (middle of the boat)


Attached is the cozy sleeping quarters for officers.


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## 284_226 (25 Feb 2007)

So it appears that the noise exposure claims are a bit of a stretch.  I'd buy the rest of the conditions reported in the study, though.

I never ever stepped foot onto an O boat for fear I'd be whacked on the head, and wake up to find myself wearing dolphins.  Fortunately, there were always enough Comm Techs that actually wanted to go subs that I didn't have any worries about being sent to one.   ;D


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## geo (26 Feb 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> O-Boats spent a lot of time away, and as we all know the Vic class has yet to get off the ground


Uhhh... I thought there was one Vic operational on the west coast?

Still asking... have the internal filters & the like adressed most of the air quality problems found in the Oberons?  I remember watching the movie "das boot" and marveling at the living conditions that would have been experienced in a ww2 sub - with crew doing crash actions fore and aft to get it to point in the right direction (up or down)


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## TAS278 (26 Feb 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Uhhh... I thought there was one Vic operational on the west coast?
> 
> Still asking... have the internal filters & the like adressed most of the air quality problems found in the Oberons?  I remember watching the movie "das boot" and marveling at the living conditions that would have been experienced in a ww2 sub - with crew doing crash actions fore and aft to get it to point in the right direction (up or down)



Not to pick on you geo 
Windsor  She is doing fine  Seen her at sea a few times and have done and exercise with her. 

As Dophin Hunter stated submarines do rely on being quiet, the whole thing is absurb. They are not in 24 Diesel Operation unless they are sailing in Peace Time and the batteries are broken... Seriously. 

Also as some people may not be aware diesel subs are much more leathal in short term then nuc's. Not going to get into it for Opsec but if you are curious about it and have the clearance/need to know ask a sonar op 

I am not a submariner but I am a sonar operator and I would like to think I know a little bit about submarines  

Also with regards to the comment about Volunteering.... Show me someone who has been forced to go subs since we bought the new Vic's..  IN my world we are all supposed to be screened but it is still by choice.. 

This article makes me laugh...

And I missed the name, but tanks.... much louder then subs... Part of an experiment in Gagetown to test some new ideas and they are much louder.


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## Navy_Blue (26 Feb 2007)

This really should be a Navy wide issue. Yes subs are little enclosed space and everything becomes a big soup of toxins. Anyone ever think to take a look at the vents on the ships?? Black coal like dust stains around the vents. Who knows what is living in them?  MSE dept on any ship swims in carcinogenic greases and breath diesel fumes regularly. Add in all the nasty cleaning products, paint, freon, asbestos the list goes on and on.  I don't think there is any way around it.  I do think this is news only because it looks badly on us.

About hearing issues. We get PPE for noise but is there any connection to extream pressure changes and hearing loss? I've heard of subs having Generators running for a few seconds after submerging causing pressure issues. Can anyone confirm or clarify?   

I know two ET's at the school now who were screened and told they have no choice they will be submariners.  career mangler gave the option of release or subs.  They chose subs.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Feb 2007)

My Chief Engineer on our CG cutter worked on subs in the navy, he was telling us about dealing with the sewage tanks, they would use compressed air to purge them and then have to “equalize” the tank with the boat by venting them into the boat. Otherwise there would a brown/yellow fountain coming out of the head when someone opened the valve to flush it!

Don’t know how true it was, but made a good story.


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## Sub_Guy (26 Feb 2007)

Its true, if you forget to close the vent when you pressurize the tank you will be in for a mess.........


Snort Cake!

When snorting the pressure can change quite often (depends who's driving), and if the cook is baking a cake the end result is the snort cake, kind of looks like the grand canyan, but filled with icing!


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## TAS278 (2 Mar 2007)

Colin P said:
			
		

> My Chief Engineer on our CG cutter worked on subs in the navy, he was telling us about dealing with the sewage tanks, they would use compressed air to purge them and then have to “equalize” the tank with the boat by venting them into the boat. Otherwise there would a brown/yellow fountain coming out of the head when someone opened the valve to flush it!
> 
> Don’t know how true it was, but made a good story.



Are you on the Matthew?


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Mar 2007)

Nope, I am on a desk now! That was back on the old CCGS Ready, can't remember his name, just called him "Chief" all the time, he used to live on a diet of hotdogs and buttermilk...... I doubt he is still alive based on that.


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## Greenie_877 (5 Jan 2008)

Wow lots of opinions on this one here is the working conditions for an ETECH on a submarine. I am sure if you really read it you would not volunteer for this service, and lets all remember that submarine sea pay is only $115 more per month. 

Greenie


The working environment encountered includes all conditions applicable to the occupation. In addition, employment in submarines provides a set of working conditions for which there is no equivalent in the surface fleet. Submarine duties involve an extremely restrictive environment where noise, extremes of temperature, high humidity, atmospheric contaminants, fluctuating atmospheric pressure and lack of sleep contribute to high levels of physical strain and fatigue. The requirement to live and work for extended periods in close quarters with a large number of other personnel in cramped, unpleasant conditions creates a high degree of emotional stress, which is exacerbated by the fact that a simple error at any time while the submarine is submerged could have catastrophic consequences for the entire crew. Submarine duties may lead to physical disorders arising from extended periods of exposure to atmospheric contaminants such as high partial pressures of carbon dioxide and significant concentrations of carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, chlorine, stibine, arsine and the combustion products of freon. Reduction in sight efficiency may result from extended periods of exposure to inadequate illumination and reduction in hearing efficiency may result from exposure to engine and ventilation system noise and rapid changes in air pressure. Electrical Technicians are subject to shocks and burns from electrical/electronic equipment, as well as hazards associated with rotating machinery and moving equipment.

Submarine Electrical Technician working conditions A-PD-055-003/PQ-001


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jan 2008)

One the guys we worked with was on the O class, when they pimped out the sewage tanks while underwater they would have to vent the tank back into the boat to equalize the pressure or risk a fountain of poop when someone used the head.


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## Sub_Guy (8 Jan 2008)

Greenie_877 said:
			
		

> Wow lots of opinions on this one here is the working conditions for an ETECH on a submarine. I am sure if you really read it you would not volunteer for this service, and lets all remember that submarine sea pay is only $115 more per month.



Don't forget to add on the $358 extra a month for Submarine Specialty Allowance

Oh not that it matters much, but foreign ports are much more enjoyable when you are getting your hotel for free and per Diem to boot.  (Insert Air Force recruiting ad here)

One last thing working down on the subs was much more enjoyable for me than the surface fleet, the crews are tighter which is probably from the working conditions, but it could also be from the fact that most are volunteers.  They want to be there (I know there are those who go down kicking and screaming, but it was rare sight).

Its not about the money though, you could take that all away I would have still volunteered for it.


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## Springroll (8 Jan 2008)

Some day, I would like to go subs...but not until my kids are older.
Not for the money, but for the experience.


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