# Private Military Companies, Good or Bad If Canada Used Them?



## FGH_Recce_DJ (8 Aug 2005)

I was just looking at an interesting article about PMC's. It says the U.S. Department of Defense has about 50,000 men and women working for them over in Iraq from ex SAS LCol Tim Spicer's Aegis Defence Services Ltd. He was given a 3 year contract valued over $510 million dollars to provide security for all of Iraq's major government projects. Looking into this a little further i found out some of the salaries guys are getting are $110,00 US per annum as well as 100 paid vacation days a year, depending on qualifications and previous combat experience.Now my question is this, if we have several and there are several of these companies providing this service, why are we not using them more often. Is it the cost? there reputation? political backlash? or is it just that maybe when it comes right down to it unlike other countries, Canada would rather do it's own missions and stick to it's morals and values. I think other countries use these PMC's as a way of getting "the dirty work done" without losing face or any kind of bad press it might get over its own soldiers getting killed,(like the over 1800 US soldiers who have already die in Iraq.) If there are men willing to go out and do what needs to be done without worrying about getting killed and with no actual ROE's, why are we not looking into using something like that to protect Canadian interests overseas as our military is so drastically stretched thin. Could this be why the US is using them.... no accountability??? As PMC's are becoming more common more and more special forces soldiers will be lured into the lucrative world of mercenary work. Great pay, top of the line kit, as well as getting real combat experience is why i believe alot of SpecOPs are jumping ship and joining PMC"s for $1000 buck s a day. I'm sure alot of you will weigh in on this and I'd like to know what you all think. If you want to check out a link here's the one to Tim Spicer's Aegis Ltd. check out the employment section, it's quite interesting. http://www.aegisdef.com/recruit.aspx  Cheers all!!!!!


----------



## BITTER PPLCI CPL (8 Aug 2005)

They will never raplace full fledged militaries and their political motivation to go to war, however if there are job's in theatre that the military doesn't have time to perform on a regular basis, then yes. Should they be used by us, yes but only in certain cases. Let's say a company of some sort is operating in a Afghanistan, rather than having Canadian troops use it's resources to protect them hire PSD's like Globe Risk Inc. or someone else to do so. There will always be some demand for this service and Canada could probably benefit, as long as the company hired doesn't take short cut's in hiring as in the case of Blackwater!


----------



## Younghusband (9 Aug 2005)

More on Tim Spicer and PMCs here:

http://www.cominganarchy.com/archives/2005/06/26/dogs-of-war/


----------



## a_majoor (14 Aug 2005)

PMC's are just a turn in the great wheel of history. Mercenary companies and even armies have existed throughout history. Some have been very good indeed.The "Ten Thousand" of the Anibasis were Greek mecrenaries who marched through what is now Iraq," Kurdistan" and Turkey to the Black sea in winter, and the Swiss were considered fearsome soldiers between @1300-1500, often other mercenaries would quit the field rather than face them.

This can go in two ways; Mercenaries can become a bigger part of the military equation should the state not find enough willing volunteers; or the State can increase the amount of resources in its own military to hunt down private operators (the growth of the State was partially fuelled by the need to create "Royal" forces capable of hunting down brigands and "Free Companies" of unattached mercenaries). I suspect the need for "Royal" forces to hunt down terrorist groups will trump the growth of mercenary forces and units, but that is only a guess on my part.


----------



## TheNomad (23 Sep 2005)

Well I used to work for a PMC.

You have to remember like all companies there are good ones and bad ones.

I was lucky in that my company DSL (now taken over by Armour Group) was a good one.  Some of the companies for whom some of my mates worked were truly awful and treated their staff much like spare parts.

PMCs do have a role, but they must also be closely watched.


----------



## Cliff (27 Sep 2005)

The US military doesn't have the troops to provide static security serv to companies operating throughout Iraq, nor close protection serv to executives working for those companies. Like the private sector, it makes sense to hire private companies (which is what PMCs are) for filling specific static and dynamic sec slots.


----------



## Glorified Ape (29 Sep 2005)

TheNomad said:
			
		

> Well I used to work for a PMC.
> 
> You have to remember like all companies there are good ones and bad ones.
> 
> ...



Sort of on and off topic, but do you know what the general hiring criteria are for PMCs (generally). More specifically in relation to close protection/point-end services. I've heard they only really go for former SF types but I've also heard they'll hire non-SF former military.


----------



## TheNomad (3 Oct 2005)

Well first off if you are considering CP work - are you qualified?

Personally I would not consider any company that would employ non-qualified personnel in this role.  After all it would be my arse that is sat next to them, and I would not want its safety in the hands of someone who was not qualified CP.

There used to be a lot of ex-SF in this role, but that changed for the UK market when the CP role was removed from SF and passed to RMP.  This was a good move as to have a very expensive SF soldier doing CP was a waste of his time.  These days there are a lot of ex-inf including PARA and RM on the circuit and standards have been lowered due to shortages.

How about you contact some of the companies and ask them what qualifications they are looking for?


----------



## Glorified Ape (4 Oct 2005)

TheNomad said:
			
		

> Well first off if you are considering CP work - are you qualified?
> 
> Personally I would not consider any company that would employ non-qualified personnel in this role.   After all it would be my arse that is sat next to them, and I would not want its safety in the hands of someone who was not qualified CP.
> 
> ...



A good idea, but one that I should probably use later on. I was just curious because I considered trying to get into private security contracting after the military but I'd got the impression that they were usually looking for SF types. After watching a whole news series on PMC's in Iraq and how desperate they are for people, though, it sounds like the shortages you're talking about. I checked out Blackwater's site but they require US citizenship. I tried to find details on Aegis' website but they didn't have anything specific (in the way of requirements) listed that I could find. 

Between now and when I get out (however long that is), things may have changed. I'm just trying to get a general feel for the how the industry works and what they generally look for/consider. There's also the issue of whether they'd be looking for ex-officers since I imagine much of the nitty-gritty experience they'd prefer isn't likely to paramount in many officers' repetoires. I'm going infantry officer so I highly doubt I'll receive any CP training or qualifications (especially as an officer). I've checked out Blackwater's employment postings (not sure if they still have that section) and they didn't seem to require any super-secret-ninja type of training or experience for much of the positions. Seemed they had alot open for analysts but I would imagine, again, that the MPO's would probably have a monopoly on threat/security assessment experience and training. I thought of trying to remust to MPO but I really would like to work in the infantry and MPO seemed a very clerical trade (nothing wrong with that, mind you), which is to say nothing of the scarcity of positions opening up for MPO. 

Thanks for the information - it shed some light on a topic that's been kind of difficult to find out about. I was considering applying to the RCMP or CSIS after the military - maybe some experience in either of those professions (if I make it in) would give me some better qualifications should I pursue PSC.


----------



## TheNomad (4 Oct 2005)

To be honest although it all looks a bit exciting CP work in Iraq is in reality dirty and dangerous with no long term prospects.  I have several mates out there at the moment, they all love the big bucks, but all wonder where they will go next. Fortunately I do not need to go there, as my current job, though paying less will still be here in 5 - 8 years time.

If I was in your position I would take RCMP as a career over any here today gone tomorrow CP job. Of course it is a personal choice, but a career is more useful than a one off job.


----------



## Glorified Ape (4 Oct 2005)

TheNomad said:
			
		

> To be honest although it all looks a bit exciting CP work in Iraq is in reality dirty and dangerous with no long term prospects.   I have several mates out there at the moment, they all love the big bucks, but all wonder where they will go next. Fortunately I do not need to go there, as my current job, though paying less will still be here in 5 - 8 years time.
> 
> If I was in your position I would take RCMP as a career over any here today gone tomorrow CP job. Of course it is a personal choice, but a career is more useful than a one off job.



Good advice. Although that 10 000/month figure I'd heard about (in some cases, not all I'm sure) sounded attractive.  ;D


----------



## MdB (4 Oct 2005)

What thorough info on PMC, mercenary, etc. ? All the info you need (but companies' address) is in this book: Fortune's Warrior

I personally found this book really interesting to read.

Have a good read.


----------



## Glorified Ape (4 Oct 2005)

MdB said:
			
		

> What thorough info on PMC, mercenary, etc. ? All the info you need (but companies' address) is in this book: Fortune's Warrior
> 
> I personally found this book really interesting to read.
> 
> Have a good read.



Thanks guy, I'm running low on reading material and I may as well read something that'll tell me something I need to know.


----------



## Ben (3 Nov 2005)

I would like to know if anyone knows Canadian private agencies that are recruiting.?


----------



## Big Red (4 Nov 2005)

Ben said:
			
		

> I would like to know if anyone knows Canadian private agencies that are recruiting.?



There are no Canadian security companies operating in Iraq.


----------



## Hmm donuts! (13 Nov 2005)

Globe Risk Inc has people here in Canada, while they are not a Canadian coy they train and hire here. And yes there are Canadians operating in Iraq, lucky bastards...I guess it's not luck, they probably earned the right!


----------



## KevinB (13 Nov 2005)

Most of the companies I have been talking with want (Iraq and Afghan)
5+ years of service cbt arms
CPP course 
Pistol and Carbine training beyond average military skill.


 As well  

 RCMP Criminal Record Background Check
 Valid Passport
 copy of your MPRR (some have been "fluffing" resumes)


Then they will dump you into their HR dept intakes.


IF you know someone it is a LOT easier to get hired.


 And as the other will tell you as well get ready for last minute phone calls.


----------



## Popurhedoff (13 Nov 2005)

We have a man in Baghdad right now,   if your interested in PSD work,   contact at Smith Tactical Systems... we accepts resumes and proof them before sending them to Baghdad.   Our man then sets up the resumes to suite the companies criteria.   We also offer courses required as prerequisites for PSD work.

Some of our courses:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35230/post-292785.html#msg292785

Serious inquires please:   http://www.smithtac.com/Training.html


----------



## Big Red (13 Nov 2005)

Hmm donuts! said:
			
		

> Globe Risk Inc has people here in Canada, while they are not a Canadian coy they train and hire here. And yes there are Canadians operating in Iraq, lucky bastards...I guess it's not luck, they probably earned the right!



Really there are Canadians in Iraq?

Globe Risk has not had any contracts in Iraq. You may be confusing them with Global which is a different company.


----------



## KevinB (13 Nov 2005)

Big Red said:
			
		

> Really there are Canadians in Iraq?


You and the Hamburgler are Falafel salesmen says so in your resume  ^-^



> Globe Risk has not had any contracts in Iraq. You may be confusing them with Global which is a different company.




 As Big Red stated - Canuck companies are basically shut out of Iraq, whatever Alan may say about being a British Co. HQ's in Canada, it appears that the Iraq gov't etc feels that it has a hollow ring and got lumped in the rest of the "No Canadian Companies Allowed" bin.

Despite my annoyance of being a Canuck wanted PSD/PMC work in Iraq - you cant blame the Iraqi's for spurning us - We did not exactly help liberate them...  Kinda like banning German Construction firms from rebuilding France and Belgium after WWII


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (13 Jan 2006)

Hate to reopen this thread, but after a search found nothing. Does anybody have a list of names, links, etc for Security Contract Companies within Canada, or hiring within Canada?

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## Haligonian (14 Jan 2006)

Can't tell ya how much I enjoyed reading these posts, I'm doing my honours thesis at Dalhousie on the regulation of PMC's.

Anyway if your looking for more info I'd say this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801441145/103-4116828-8428609?v=glance&n=283155 book is hands down the best book out there on PMC's.  If you want anymore I can suggest well over forty sources (books and articles) on the subject.


----------



## MdB (14 Jan 2006)

b00161400 said:
			
		

> Can't tell ya how much I enjoyed reading these posts, I'm doing my honours thesis at Dalhousie on the regulation of PMC's.
> 
> Anyway if your looking for more info I'd say this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801441145/103-4116828-8428609?v=glance&n=283155 book is hands down the best book out there on PMC's.  If you want anymore I can suggest well over forty sources (books and articles) on the subject.



Hmm, that's weird. The book title is Corporate Warriors although the soldiers on the cover are American servicemen... Yeah, right.

Still, the book seems very interesting. You should have already read the book I mentioned earlier in the thread, also very interesting.


----------



## Haligonian (25 Jan 2006)

MdB said:
			
		

> Hmm, that's weird. The book title is Corporate Warriors although the soldiers on the cover are American servicemen... Yeah, right.
> 
> Still, the book seems very interesting. You should have already read the book I mentioned earlier in the thread, also very interesting.



Yes I did read that book, I think I've read a pretty sizeable chunk of the stuff on this topic as there still isn't a whole lot of new stuff.  As for the soldiers on the front of the book, I think you were being sarcastic, but they aren't US servicemen.  They are MPRI (Military Professional Resources Incorporated) contractors conducting training in Kuwait.  It is curious though, because, corect me if I'm wrong, it's illegal for them to be wearing service unifroms unless they are members of the armed forces right?  That is an issue currently with PMC's as more and more of them are beginning to wear military uniforms, further blurring the line between combatant and non-combatant and where do these guys stand?


----------



## a_majoor (26 Jan 2006)

Military contractors and security companies use military clothing for many of the same reasons we do: to differentiate them from non employees and to take advantage of the many pockets, attachment points and body armour that modern combat clothing has. Wearing the same uniforms as an existing army in theater has some strengths (the locals will equate the uniform with the army, and may expect the same capabilities as well. Also this makes intelligence somewhat more difficult for the Jihadis, since the head count will be quite a bit higher), and one very obvious weakness (western soldiers are targets by default, so wearing the uniform signals you are a target).

Now companies might be able to get the advantages of point one by contracting their own uniforms (somewhat expensive), or going to the surplus bin and buying up old CF OD Green combats or East German uniforms, but that still self identifies employees to the Jihadis, most of whom don't care about the distinctions between soldiers and contract employees anyway. As for the line between combatant and non combatant, the Jihadis don't make that distinction anyway; if you are a Westerner, you are a target.


----------



## Haligonian (1 Feb 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Military contractors and security companies use military clothing for many of the same reasons we do: to differentiate them from non employees and to take advantage of the many pockets, attachment points and body armour that modern combat clothing has. Wearing the same uniforms as an existing army in theater has some strengths (the locals will equate the uniform with the army, and may expect the same capabilities as well. Also this makes intelligence somewhat more difficult for the Jihadis, since the head count will be quite a bit higher), and one very obvious weakness (western soldiers are targets by default, so wearing the uniform signals you are a target).
> 
> Now companies might be able to get the advantages of point one by contracting their own uniforms (somewhat expensive), or going to the surplus bin and buying up old CF OD Green combats or East German uniforms, but that still self identifies employees to the Jihadis, most of whom don't care about the distinctions between soldiers and contract employees anyway. As for the line between combatant and non combatant, the Jihadis don't make that distinction anyway; if you are a Westerner, you are a target.



It should be noted that these guys looking like national forces is not always an advantage, they are not accountable and they get away with alot of stuff that can get blamed on national forces.  For example a handful of those MP's involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal were PMC employees of CACI and Titan, while the US forces in question were charged these guys have not even gone to trial and likely won't, because their status under military justice is far from clear.

In regards to jihadis and contractors, good point, they don't give a damn if your a contractor or a soldier.  I'm curious in regards to a more conventional war situation.  Would Blackwater security guards escorting 3rd party VIP's through a war zone be considered combatants?  How about civilians who maintain high tech gear like stealth fighters?  Those civilians are strategic resources but they are also civilians...


----------



## Centurian1985 (3 Apr 2006)

For those of you asking for information here, I would say you dont have much chance of getting hired fi you are asking for help here.  Its who you now AND what you know with many of these agencies.  Although, there are currently a few US ones who will take anyone with Middle East experience.


----------

