# Remains found at Kamloops residential school 'not an isolated incident,' Indigenous experts and leaders warn



## daftandbarmy (31 May 2021)

This is appalling. 

I've driven by that facility many times on the way to and from exercises in the area and had no idea, of course. May they rest in peace....




Indigenous leaders and experts in British Columbia are calling for the protection of sites of former residential schools, warning that the bodies of 215 children found in Kamloops, B.C., likely represent just a small portion of the thousands more who died while the schools were in operation. 

Linc Kesler, director of the University of British Columbia's First Nations House of Learning, said it's only a matter of time before the same type of technology used by the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation reveals more physical evidence of the horrors of residential schools across Canada. 

"It's absolutely not an isolated incident," Kesler said. 

On Thursday, the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation said preliminary findings from a ground-penetrating radar survey uncovered the remains. 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bodies-kamloops-residential-school-not-isolated-incident-leaders-warn-1.6046394


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## FSTO (31 May 2021)

A horrible tragedy for sure. I'm pretty sure the conditions within the dorms were breeding grounds for all sorts of communicable diseases that would roar through a place like that. Coupled with an indifferent bureaucracy and disdain for the indigenous community its no wonder there would be an over-abundance of death there.

I recall walking through the grave yard in Revelstoke and was amazed at the number of young children, and women buried with their baby. A lot of the markers were pre WWI but many others was from the 20's and early 30's. People today don't realize how dangerous it was a 100 years ago to be a young child or a woman giving birth.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2021)

Yes, problem is that people view this purely in a modern context. Prior to WWI, the value of kids was not that high for working class people, and the Brits had some odd ideas how to treat them. Then take the average infant mortality rate prior to WWII 

To put it into a perspective this article and short clip reminds us of how fragile life was New Heritage Minute celebrates 100th anniversary of discovery of insulin in Canada (VIDEO)


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## Eaglelord17 (31 May 2021)

Take a walk in any old cemetery and look at the gravestones, not very many lived a long and healthy life. Lots of child deaths, mothers, young adults, industrial accidents, horse accidents, diseases, etc. The reason there was so many boomers was because historically a family would have had 6 or 7 kids and only 3-4 would make it to adult hood, modern medicine made it so pretty much all of them lived and we have since adjusted accordingly. 

Most of those children who died were of Tuberculosis. In 1815 in England, 1 in 4 people would die of that disease. It was a very serious issue and it wasn't really sorted out until 1946 when a actual cure was made. Modern facilities (running water, effective heating systems, etc.) helped reduce the prevalence of it in the early 20th century, but until 1946 it was still very serious if you did catch it.


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## Kilted (31 May 2021)

Reading some of the comments online there are some people who think that they were murdered and buried in a mass grave.  I'm not sure that this really should be a shocking discovery.  We knew that there was potentially a couple thousand children who had died without their deaths being tracked.  It seems odd that there wasn't some form of record kept of the locations of the bodies, if for nothing else to prevent them from being buried on top of each other.  I'm surprised that a search didn't occur earlier.


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## Haggis (31 May 2021)

Kilted said:


> Reading some of the comments online there are some people who think that they were murdered and buried in a mass grave.


I can accept a child dying of natural causes.  It happens even today and a few of these souls may have gone that way.  For the remainder, though, whether they died from murder, neglect, mistreatment, illness or suicide, they were in the care of the church and state and this should not have happened.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2021)

You can see the bandwagon jumping for people, organisations and parties to get their "Woke PC medal" and brownie points on this issue. The issue has been known for years and I bet people knew about the graveyard in the area and likely extent of it, which was what led to the radar survey. There are a lot of terrible things done in the residential school system or happened in them and you can bet some of the issues were not just the staff. Now what would be good is to find out what was the average school population at different times and compare the child mortality rate to the average of the time to see how big of a difference it was. Just the rough math is 2.7 kids a year died at the school. Wiki indicates that the school held around 400 students at one period, conditions were less than ideal  Kamloops Indian Residential School - Wikipedia

The residential school system is a perfect example of 'Political Correct thinking" run amuck. While we are aghast at what happened today, these were promoted by the same type of people then, that are pushing PC stuff today.


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## Quirky (31 May 2021)

So what happens now. Memorials, more half-masses flags, monetary settlements, searching of more past-residential schools? What’s the end goal here besides more “outrage”, sending thoughts and prayers and apologies from governments on behalf of things that happened decades ago. The heads on TV are talking a lot without saying anything.


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## daftandbarmy (31 May 2021)

Quirky said:


> So what happens now. Memorials, more half-masses flags, monetary settlements, searching of more past-residential schools? What’s the end goal here besides more “outrage”, sending thoughts and prayers and apologies from governments on behalf of things that happened decades ago. The heads on TV are talking a lot without saying anything.



Yes, yes it seems so:

Days after children's remains reported, Trudeau says more help coming for residential school survivors​

"Our government will continue to engage with the communities on the development of culturally appropriate approaches to identifying these children, locating burial sites and commemorating and memorializing those who died or went missing attending these schools."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kamloops-remains-debate-1.6046692


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## lenaitch (31 May 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Take a walk in any old cemetery and look at the gravestones, not very many lived a long and healthy life. Lots of child deaths, mothers, young adults, industrial accidents, horse accidents, diseases, etc. The reason there was so many boomers was because historically a family would have had 6 or 7 kids and only 3-4 would make it to adult hood, modern medicine made it so pretty much all of them lived and we have since adjusted accordingly.
> 
> Most of those children who died were of Tuberculosis. In 1815 in England, 1 in 4 people would die of that disease. It was a very serious issue and it wasn't really sorted out until 1946 when a actual cure was made. Modern facilities (running water, effective heating systems, etc.) helped reduce the prevalence of it in the early 20th century, but until 1946 it was still very serious if you did catch it.



My dad was born in 1914.  His mom died two days later 'from childbirth'  Two other siblings died young; one I think around 3 and the other in her late teens or early 20s (might have the Spanish Flu).  Life was much more precarious back then and, if you were Indigenous, Chinese, Black, etc., considered by many to be cheap.

TB was particularly rampant on FNTs back then and is still prevalent on some communities today and back then basically untreatable (dad got it  in the '30s and survived with one functioning lung - lived to age 80).

Even if the deaths were not nefarious, there is no way the government of the day was going to spend money to send the bodies back.  Whether the lack of historical record was deliberate, poor record keeping or something more sinister we may never know.

Amongst other things, I can see a renewed effort to 'de-celebrate' (?) those politicians and public figures who championed the residential school system (Ryerson, et al).


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## Kilted (1 Jun 2021)

Im already starting to see misinformation about this. There are a lot of people who are willing to believe almost anything.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jun 2021)

Obviously from comments I've seen elsewhere some people are surprised by this; I'd guess they don't know much about the history of the residential school system.  Children will have died due to illness, innocent misadventure (accidents), neglect, and abuse.  I'd expect most of the deaths occurred in the earlier years, which would also have been the time at which authorities were least likely to transport remains back to families.  So expect local burials.  Expect things to have been done on the cheap (no markers).  Expect the criminal deaths to have been hushed up (stories of middle-of-night burials).  I've known since before I graduated high school that kids died (and undoubtedly some were killed) while attending those institutions and were buried locally.  It's just a question of finding the remains.  Not all the deaths were nefarious.  But not much respect was accorded the deceased and the families.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jun 2021)

Look at the infant mortality rates from 1950 to now to see how far we have come






						Canada Infant Mortality Rate 1950-2022
					

Chart and table of the Canada infant mortality rate from 1950 to 2022.  United Nations projections are also included through the year 2100.




					www.macrotrends.net
				




This graph covers the infant mortality rates for most of the time that school was open








						Canada: infant mortality rate 1900-2020 | Statista
					

The infant mortality rate in Canada, for children under the age of one year old, was 187 deaths per thousand births in 1900.




					www.statista.com


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## FSTO (1 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Look at the infant mortality rates from 1950 to now to see how far we have come
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those stats will be inconvient truths that will be buried by the cries of "Colonialism" and "Genocide".  And it was well known at the time that the schools were a deathtrap.



			http://www.fnesc.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/IRSR11-12-DE-1906-1910.pdf
		


Excerpt
1906-1910 THE BRYCE REPORTMonarch: Edward VII
Prime Minister: Sir Wilfred Laurier
Premier: Richard McBride
Federal Ministryepartment of the Interior
In the News1906  Delegation of BC Chiefs travel to England to meet with King Edward to discuss the Indian Land Question.
Mar 24 1906 “Census of the British Empire” shows England rules 1/5 of the world .
1907 Nisga’a form Nisga’a Land Committee.
Feb 13 1907 English suffragettes storm British Parliament and 60 women are arrested.
Apr 19, 1907 11th Boston Marathon won by Aboriginal athlete Tom Longboat of Canada.
1908  BC government decides to make no more reserve allocations.1909  The group “Interior Tribes of British Columbia” is formed.
1910  BC refuses to submit question of Aboriginal Title in BC to British Privy Council.
BACKGROUNDER
Tuberculosis is a highly contagious disease, caused by bacteria that infects any organ, but most commonly affects the lungs. Today we have modern antibiotics to treat the disease, but in 1907 diet, rest, sunlight and fresh air were the main treatments. TB, also known as consumption, was at epidemic levels among Aboriginal communities in the early twentieth century. With hundreds of children living so close together in dormitories, it is no wonder that the Industrial Schools, and later the Residential Schools, were breeding grounds for spreading the disease. In 1907, Dr. Peter Bryce, the Chief Medical Officer for the Department of Indian Affairs conducted a study of the health of students in Industrial Schools in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. He found extremely high rates of death from tuberculosis in the schools. His findings were shocking, and his report received publicity across the country. Duncan Campbell Scott and the Department of Indian Affairs did very little to address the problem.Bryce continued to push the government to recognize the problem. He conducted another study and report in 1909. This report was circulated to medical, school and church officials for comment. However, there was minimal action taken. You will read part of Scott’s response in the documents.Bryce continued to criticise the department and ultimately he was removed from his position. In 1922, after years of inaction and no change in the death rates, he published The Story of a National Crime: An Appeal for Justice to the Indians of Canada to bring awareness to the issue.


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## Remius (1 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Look at the infant mortality rates from 1950 to now to see how far we have come
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And yet aboriginal, Inuit and Métis child mortality rates remain disproportionately higher.


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## Eaglelord17 (1 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> And yet aboriginal, Inuit and Métis child mortality rates remain disproportionately higher.


I can't speak for the average Aboriginal and Metis children, but for the Inuit children we could solve much of those issues however we would be the evil white men if we dared to do so. Start requiring helmets on snowmachines and ATVs up North as well as adult driving or at least supervising ( https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/police-investigate-fatal-accident-rankin-inlet-1.5323827 ), remove the children from abusive households (currently they do what is best for the 'family' not the child), start enforcing the laws on the Inuit (pretty much the wild west up there, other than serious crime enforcement they are basically left to fend for themselves), etc. When you have a 50% truancy rate amongst kids in Grade 1 it isn't because the kids are skipping school, it is because the parents are refusing to send them to it. Almost starting to sound like Residential Schools isn't it?

But it is easier today to pretend the problem doesn't exist and ignore it. Do nothing you are the evil white man who is ignoring them. Do something you are the evil white man trying to destroy their culture and way of life. There is no winning until people are ready to have some serious talks and acknowledge both sides have roles to play.


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## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

Or perhaps ‘white-ification’ isn’t the answer, and we look at a long-term model to reverse the wholesale community amalgamation/settlements  we enforced on the Inuit in the 50s and 60s?


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Or perhaps ‘white-ification’ isn’t the answer, and we look at a long-term model to reverse the wholesale community amalgamation/settlements  we enforced on the Inuit in the 50s and 60s?


Who are “we” and how do “we“ impose anything on those communities?

I‘ve been to Resolute Bay, where a whole bunch of Innuit got relocated in the 1950s and then starved, wholesale. It is about the worst place in the Arctic to put a Village for hunter/gatherers.

I am of the opinion at this point that solution is to raise the GST two points, give the resultant money every year to a panel of First Nations, no strings attached, and they distribute it under rules that they develop to each and every First Nation.


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## Weinie (1 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Who are “we” and how do “we“ impose anything on those communities?
> 
> I‘ve been to Resolute Bay, where a whole bunch of Innuit got relocated in the 1950s and then starved, wholesale. It is about the worst place in the Arctic to put a Village for hunter/gatherers.
> 
> I am of the opinion at this point that solution is to raise the GST two points, give the resultant money every year to a panel of First Nations, no strings attached, and they distribute it under rules that they develop to each and every First Nation.


So a "pay to demonstrate and acknowledge' our presumptive collective guilt? Sorry, I don't buy that argument.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> So a "pay to demonstrate and acknowledge' our presumptive collective guilt? Sorry, I don't buy that argument.


Yes, actually.

But here is the kicker- nobody in Ottawa to blame if things go wrong. Self-Government means just that.

Oh and questions might start getting asked from below on just how the Band money is being spent.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jun 2021)

> remove the children from abusive households



Which ironically was among the purposes of the residential schools.  With that done horribly, I wonder what options there are.


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## OldSolduer (1 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> TB was particularly rampant on FNTs back then and is still prevalent on some communities today


You are right on this. A few of our guests form up north arrive with active TB and need to be isolated.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jun 2021)

The availability of modern ob/gyn care alone is probably worth more than all the land in the Americas.  The door is open.  I have no interest in preserving/stranding people in pseudo-traditional villages as some kind of living museum exhibits.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jun 2021)

Some bands that signed treaties warn that treaties might not be such a good idea, because your very much more on your own. The majority of bands are "Wards of the State".


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## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

‘We’ is certainly the Canadian federal government, certainly from the 1930s with the SCC’s 1939 _Re Eskimo_ decision on the status of the Inuit to be considered as Indians per the Indian Act, onwards.

If one  the time, I suggest this reference for reading. 
CANADA’S RELATIONSHIP WITH INUIT: A History of Policy and Program Development (.pdf)

The section ‘ARCTIC SOVEREIGNTY AND INUIT RELOCATIONS’ is particularly interesting as it outlines the shift from Government subsistence relief in the 1920s into more deliberate resource and sovereignty-related forced relation in the 50s and 60s.

Overall, the Government, on behalf of the people, showed and to a fair degree continues to show a disconnectedness from how the Inuit got to where they are now and how Canada support (or doesn’t) them in their stagnated (vice nomadic) subsistence.

Regards 
G2G


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## Weinie (1 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yes, actually.
> 
> But here is the kicker- nobody in Ottawa to blame if things go wrong. Self-Government means just that.
> 
> Oh and questions might start getting asked from below on just how the Band money is being spent.


Ummm. OK. Self government means just what the local government determines/means what self government means. Too many shyte examples to post.

And so there have been multiple examinations on how band money has been spent, much like municipalities, which is good, from an accountability standpoint. The results have been mixed, with recommendations made.


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## brihard (1 Jun 2021)

Make no mistake: the residential schools were a significant manifestation of deliberate government policies towards indigenous populations that, were they to be repeated today, would absolutely constitute the crime of “genocide” under both international and domestic criminal law.

The explicit and deliberate intent was to destroy the culture of “the Indian”. Forcible transfer of children, at the hands of both the Church and by Canadian government agents - Indian Agents and the RCMP - was a part of this. It was a deliberate effort to stamp out the culture and destroy the bonds between communities and their children. They did a pretty good job, and the damage to this day is tremendous.

I have no idea how to make it right.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> I have no idea how to make it right.


It can't be "made right"....it happened, nothing changes that.    All that can be done is to make sure it never happens again.......


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## MilEME09 (1 Jun 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> It can't be "made right"....it happened, nothing changes that.    All that can be done is to make sure it never happens again.......


And try to forge a better path forward together, which is easier said then done. Personally I think a good Gauntlet to pick up would be clean drinking water. It would take decades of hard work but if we start improving quality of life and the basics in FN communities it could go a long way.


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## Weinie (1 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Make no mistake: the residential schools were a significant manifestation of deliberate government policies towards indigenous populations that, were they to be repeated today, would absolutely constitute the crime of “genocide” under both international and domestic criminal law.
> 
> The explicit and deliberate intent was to destroy the culture of “the Indian”. Forcible transfer of children, at the hands of both the Church and by Canadian government agents - Indian Agents and the RCMP - was a part of this. It was a deliberate effort to stamp out the culture and destroy the bonds between communities and their children. They did a pretty good job, and the damage to this day is tremendous.
> 
> I have no idea how to make it right.


Bri,

You are attempting to apply 2021 cultural "normalcies" to 19th and early 20th century realities. Make no mistake, the schools and the Catholic church, _at that time, _were not considering the eradication of native populations. Rather, they were focused on mass proselytization.


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## brihard (1 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Bri,
> 
> You are attempting to apply 2021 cultural "normalcies" to 19th and early 20th century realities. Make no mistake, the schools and the Catholic church, _at that time, _were not considering the eradication of native populations. Rather, they were focused on mass proselytization.



Genocide is not limited to physical eradication. Other mechanisms that serve the ends of reducing or eliminating an identifiable group fit within it too. In this instance there are a couple of different manifestations that would fit legal definitions, forcible transfer of children being one of them.

Daniel Holdhagen wrote a really solid book on the multiple manifestations of genocide a few years back, _Worse than War_. It’s a bit of a tome, but a good read. On the legal side, Canada criminalizes Genocide under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, which codifies both treaty and customary international law, not least the ‘Rome Statute’. The ICC’s publication _Elements of Offences_ is both useful and persuasive in understanding these definitions.

The intent absolutely was to reduce our native population and to convert them into something else from how settlers found  them, through forced assimilation, and a multitude of abusive practices. It was genocide. The fact that, at that time in history, our ancestors were the ones who were generally ok with it doesn’t minimize what it was.

When our nation’s erstwhile practices towards the indigenous were first described as ‘genocide’ I scoffed at it, like many. As I’ve continued to learn, and particularly as I’ve become increasingly versed in crimes against humanity, I have reluctantly had to change my views.


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## Remius (1 Jun 2021)

And the last residential schools closed in the 1990s.  They even knew that in the early 1900s that this was bad,  the fact that went late into the 20th century is unbelievable.  We have survivors that disagree about how acceptable this was.  

Stop minimizing this and making excuses.  That would be a good start.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Genocide is not limited to physical eradication. Other mechanisms that serve the ends of reducing or eliminating an identifiable group fit within it too. In this instance there are a couple of different manifestations that would fit legal definitions, forcible transfer of children being one of them.
> 
> Daniel Holdhagen wrote a really solid book on the multiple manifestations of genocide a few years back, _Worse than War_. It’s a bit of a tome, but a good read. On the legal side, Canada criminalizes Genocide under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, which codifies both treaty and customary international law, not least the ‘Rome Statute’. The ICC’s publication _Elements of Offences_ is both useful and persuasive in understanding these definitions.
> 
> ...





Thats great that you decided it was 'genocide', I can't imagine anyone ever thinking anything else then that, but, I say again, IT HAPPENED.........we should be working forward together and not navel gazing backwards.


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## Remius (1 Jun 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Thats great that you decided it was 'genocide', I can't imagine anyone ever thinking anything else then that, but, I say again, IT HAPPENED.........we should be working forward together and not navel gazing backwards.


Ignoring it is why it’s taken so long to acknowledge it.  Part of moving forward is acknowledging what happened and yeah, it will take some uncomfortable “navel gazing” backwards to do that.


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## Weinie (1 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Genocide is not limited to physical eradication. Other mechanisms that serve the ends of reducing or eliminating an identifiable group fit within it too. In this instance there are a couple of different manifestations that would fit legal definitions, forcible transfer of children being one of them.
> 
> Daniel Holdhagen wrote a really solid book on the multiple manifestations of genocide a few years back, _Worse than War_. It’s a bit of a tome, but a good read. On the legal side, Canada criminalizes Genocide under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, which codifies both treaty and customary international law, not least the ‘Rome Statute’. The ICC’s publication _Elements of Offences_ is both useful and persuasive in understanding these definitions.
> 
> ...


Granted.  No one limits genocide, and I challenge you to find any Canadian gov't policy that was aimed at physical eradication that was enacted. 

But there are many narratives that strike an opposing view, and postulate that indigenous communities ,without external assistance, would have disappeared, due to disease.


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## Remius (1 Jun 2021)

I’ll never understand how anyone can justify or minimise  any of this.


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## Weinie (1 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I’ll never understand how anyone can justify or minimise  any of this.


Ok. I will try. Tubercolosis  was the leading cause of death, across many strata. Smallpox was endemic and killed 1 in 5 that it infected.

So, based on the fact that about 180+ died of endemic diseases per 1000, in that time period, that would suggest that the school over the course of the worst of it, would have seen about @2400 deaths. That didn't happen.









						Canada: infant mortality rate 1900-2020 | Statista
					

The infant mortality rate in Canada, for children under the age of one year old, was 187 deaths per thousand births in 1900.




					www.statista.com


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## Quirky (1 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am of the opinion at this point that solution is to raise the GST two points, give the resultant money every year to a panel of First Nations, no strings attached, and they distribute it under rules that they develop to each and every First Nation.



No more money from government and my tax dollars. How many more untold billions must we throw at the problem? Doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Anytime there is any meaningful talk to help these people long term, like cancelling a lot of these incentives to lock them on reserve land, it's deemed racist and heartless and the left wing wants to keep them locked forever. It’s never about reparation, it’s always money.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Yes, actually.
> 
> But here is the kicker- nobody in Ottawa to blame if things go wrong. Self-Government means just that.
> 
> Oh and questions might start getting asked from below on just *how the Band money is being spent*.



Dude... don't rile up the Scottish Regimental Senates or we're all dooooomed


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## Brad Sallows (2 Jun 2021)

Bear in mind that infant mortality statistics are not relevant for a school-age population.

Reconciliation is hard.  Monty Python skits aside, indigenous populations displaced, ruled, and abused by colonial powers and immigrants rarely make a measured evaluation of what benefits may have been gained (perhaps with the exception of indigenous populations that were victims of stronger neighbouring indigenous populations).  People mostly want to rule themselves.


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## Halifax Tar (2 Jun 2021)

Is part of the problem not the reservation system we have now ?  My understanding, and its very minimal, is that our indigenous only get the social and monetary benefits owed to them if they live on a reservation ?  Why not simply remove that barrier and then encourage them join our fold at their own pace and design, while allowing them to keep their financial and social benefits.  ? 

I am not sure throwing more money at this will fix anything, but I would be in favor of a one time, take or leave it, final dump of cash, don't ask for anymore again kind of deal.


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## Remius (2 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Ok. I will try. Tubercolosis  was the leading cause of death, across many strata. Smallpox was endemic and killed 1 in 5 that it infected.
> 
> So, based on the fact that about 180+ died of endemic diseases per 1000, in that time period, that would suggest that the school over the course of the worst of it, would have seen about @2400 deaths. That didn't happen.
> 
> ...


Not even sure what math you are using.  Even the Bryce report from that time indicated higher cases of TB than the average population.  And that residential schools were seeing higher numbers that normal due to the conditions.

That particular school was closed in 1978.   I was alive at that point.  This isn’t some far off statistic.  And what about the the nutrition experiments conducted on students in the 40s and 50s?  Too far back to be bad?  

This was a government sanctioned atrocity.    If you think native Canadians should thank the government for residential schools you need to educate yourself a bit better about what this was.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> ... the schools and the Catholic church, _at that time, _were not considering the eradication of native populations. Rather, they were focused on mass proselytization.


There may be debate about the definition of "eradication of native populations," but that said, while Big Church (and not just Catholic - more here & here) got a chance to sell their approach in the residential schools, when the Minister in 1932 said things like this, one can't help but understand why some might see it as more than _just_ helping Big Church expand the flock ...


> .... (Duncan Campbell) Scott firmly supported the assimilationist policies of the Canadian government and advocated a policy of tribal termination, under which the indigenous peoples of Canada were to lose legal recognition and the protections and guarantees of their treaties with the government. The objective of these policies, he told a committee of the House of Commons in 1920, was “to continue until there is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and there is no Indian question, and no Indian Department.” ...


Also, this from a PM & government not known for handing out too many apologies, using 2008 cultural norms ....


> ... Two primary objectives of the Residential Schools system were to remove and isolate children from the influence of their homes, families, traditions and cultures, and to assimilate them into the dominant culture. These objectives were based on the assumption Aboriginal cultures and spiritual beliefs were inferior and unequal. Indeed, some sought, as it was infamously said, “to kill the Indian in the child” ...


The solution?  I'll leave to greater minds than mine, given how tangled the ball of string involved is.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> There may be debate about the definition of "eradication of native populations," but that said, while Big Church (and not just Catholic - more here & here) got a chance to sell their approach in the residential schools, when the Minister in 1932 said things like this, one can't help but understand why some might see it as more than _just_ helping Big Church expand the flock ...
> 
> Also, this from a PM & government not known for handing out too many apologies, using 2008 cultural norms ....
> 
> The solution?  I'll leave to greater minds than mine, given how tangled the ball of string involved is.



Nicely said. Here's another, pretty good, overview IMHO. Bolded italics mine:

Indigenous Peoples and Government Policy in Canada​
Residential schools_ were government-sponsored religious schools that were _*established to assimilate Indigenous children into Euro-Canadian culture*. They functioned generally from 1880 to 1996. (Grollier Hall, which closed in 1997, was not a state-run residential school in that year.) The schools disrupted lives and communities, causing long-term problems among Indigenous peoples. (_See also_ Inuit Experiences at Residential School and Métis Experiences at Residential School.)

In 2008, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) was set up as part of the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement (IRRSA). Among other functions, the TRC did research about residential schools and issued a final report. The TRC cites residential schools (as well as the Sixties Scoop) as part of Canada’s legislative “cultural genocide” against Indigenous peoples. (_See also_ Genocide and Indigenous Peoples in Canada.)






						Indigenous Peoples and Government Policy in Canada
					

For most of the history of political interaction between Indigenous people and the Canadian government (and its colonial predecessors) government policy has foc...




					www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


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## Infanteer (2 Jun 2021)

The linkage is simple.  Genocide is not simply defined by mass murder (cases like the Holocaust for which we are familiar with), but by attempting to deny the existence of a group of people.  The definition of genocide also cites assimilationist policies as means to genocide, such as "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" (checked that box with reserves) and "Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group" (checked that box with residential schools) .  Therefore, by definition assimilation is a form of genocide.

What bothers me is that this whole thing is like a US mass shooting event.  Everybody will send out prayers, agree that what happened is terrible, and nothing will get done to fix things in the future.  All the tweets and apologies for historical wrongs will do nothing to change the fact that the conditions facing many indigenous Canadians, right here and now, is dreadful.  A government of the day should not hesitate to renovate the god-awful "Indian Act", and to broach a Constitutional Convention if required.  Everything should be on the table.

Finally, I find the language of "settler/colonizer" to be unhelpful, and I note that some people seem inclined to declare themselves as "settlers."  This only exacerbates, in my view, the us vs them distinction.  We're all in this boat together, nobody is leaving, and its going to take efforts from all Canadians to sort this out, regardless of whether you or your ancestors happened to come to North America 25,000 years ago, 250 years ago, 25 years ago, or 25 months ago.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jun 2021)

> That particular school was closed in 1978.



As a day school.  Residential ceased in 1969.  Keep in mind that most of the worst abuses and neglect most likely occurred in the earliest years of operation.


----------



## Remius (2 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> As a day school.  Residential ceased in 1969.  Keep in mind that most of the worst abuses and neglect most likely occurred in the earliest years of operation.


The 40s and 50s with nutrition experiments wasn’t that far back.  Neither was the 60s scoop. The fact is we have people alive today suffering the effects of their time in these institutions.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jun 2021)

> Is part of the problem not the reservation system we have now ?



Yes.  It's a lottery.  Bands sitting on valuable natural resources, high-value land, or adjacent to any good-sized cities have opportunities.  Bands sitting in small communities in the vast sparsely populated regions of Canada have nothing.  Fellow feeling doesn't extend far enough for the various associations to form any kind of equalization schemes.

One-time payment schemes are risky.  Some will put the money to good use.  Others will not.  Then what?  Ignore people living in poverty with sub-standard water and other services?

I doubt any solution which does not end with exactly one class of citizenship for all Canadians, enjoying the same rights and privileges wherever they choose to reside and work.


----------



## lenaitch (2 Jun 2021)

The history of one society/culture conquering, assimilating, subjugating or otherwise treating badly the 'others' that they encounter is not particularly a Canadian problem; it has gone on long before the Romans.  Part of the reason for the extent of the social conflict was, for want of a better term, the clash of cultures at different points on the social scale (I hesitate to include the term 'evolutionary').  At the beginning of European contact, it was the age of sail and gunpower meeting largely hunter-gatherer societies, many nomadic.  By the time colonization got underway, it was the Industrial Revolution while the indigenous societies were still at the hunter-gatherer stage.

Before colonization, not all was sweetness and light in the Americas.   War between societies, genocidal intents and slavery were not uncommon.

There may be a general unhappiness with the Indian Act and the 'reserve system', but I am not aware of any consensus on a better version, on either side.  I am most familiar with Northwestern Ontario, where there are approximately 30 remote (fly-in/ice road) FNTs with a total population in the area of 10,000 (my number may be off).  Most are under 1000 people (some very under), a few are in the low couple of thousand.  That is their traditional territory, but in terms of clustering in fixed houses with electricity, an air strip, store, etc.; i.e. 'living Western', there is no economy to support that, and no potential for one, and no desire to turn back the hunter-gatherer clock.  Their only hope for any income beyond government handouts is resource extraction income, and they need to remain proximate to their territory for that.  Without an economic base to live like now do, social problems abound.  The residual effects of the residential school system, probably made them worse, but they would still exist regardless.

A large number of years ago, there were very informal discussions about coalescing many of these into a small number of larger communities, even very distant from 'Western towns', where there could be a road connection, decent infrastructure, hospital, high school, etc. plus a critical mass for some kind of economic base, would be more achievable.  There was no appetite for that, on either side.

The current system is very costly.   Simply putting in a water system in a remote community that may only have a few hundred people is a multi-million dollar, multi-year venture.   We could give each and every man, woman and child a million dollars, but the social problems would still exist.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> And the last residential schools closed in the 1990s.  They even knew that in the early 1900s that this was bad,  the fact that went late into the 20th century is unbelievable.  We have survivors that disagree about how acceptable this was.
> 
> Stop minimizing this and making excuses.  That would be a good start.


It's not minimising, it's understanding the context of the day. Not so long before this school opened the First Nation were actively practising slavery and it was colonists that put a stop to that. The introduction of alcohol into the fur trade by the NWC also destroyed much of the social fabric of the bands.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil (2 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> What bothers me is that this whole thing is like a US mass shooting event.  Everybody will send out prayers, agree that what happened is terrible, and nothing will get done to fix things in the future.  All the tweets and apologies for historical wrongs will do nothing to change the fact that the conditions facing many indigenous Canadians, right here and now, is dreadful.  A government of the day should not hesitate to renovate the god-awful "Indian Act", and to broach a Constitutional Convention if required.  Everything should be on the table.



I agree that tweets and apologies for historical wrongs, or the Prime Minister collectively blaming Canada doesn't change anything. In my view, the first step in terms of concrete action that should be taken is what would happen any time a bunch of bodies are found ... there should be a thorough investigation, those responsible should be determined, and there should be criminal prosecutions.

You mentioned the Holocaust, they are still prosecuting people involved in that today 70 years later. These residential schools were closed more recently, surely perpetrators could be found and brought to justice.

This would just be a start of course. Agree with you that the so-called _Indian Act_ needs to be scrapped or massively overhauled and a Constitutional Convention with indigenous people at the table would make sense.



Infanteer said:


> Finally, I find the language of "settler/colonizer" to be unhelpful, and I note that some people seem inclined to declare themselves as "settlers."  This only exacerbates, in my view, the us vs them distinction.  We're all in this boat together, nobody is leaving, and its going to take efforts from all Canadians to sort this out, regardless of whether you or your ancestors happened to come to North America 25,000 years ago, 250 years ago, 25 years ago, or 25 months ago.



Again, agreed. I hate the "us vs. them" and "tribalism" that this language engenders. I get that white people want to self-flagellate and therefore label themselves with the term "settler" but it helps nothing and potentially causes more harm for the reasons you've cited. In my view the way forward is the "we're all in the boat together" approach you've advocated. Build bridges rather than burn them more.


----------



## Infanteer (2 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Before colonization, not all was sweetness and light in the Americas.   War between societies, genocidal intents and slavery were not uncommon.



Yes.  I've even seen the awkward case somewhere in Ontario where a land acknowledgement was made to an indigenous group who had displaced another group from that land.  Who do you acknowledge there?

On the other hand, in this case, we have a specific entity, the Government of Canada, that still exists and can still be held to account for actions.  That is what makes this different than trying to go back and point the finger at Ghengis Khan or the Roman Senate.



lenaitch said:


> There may be a general unhappiness with the Indian Act and the 'reserve system', but I am not aware of any consensus on a better version, on either side.



And that's the million dollar question.  What next?  What is a realistic course of action?  We aren't turning back the clocks here, and it must be accepted that the solution isn't going to look like any past.  This is where some shared vision is required.


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## quadrapiper (2 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> Yes.  I've even seen the awkward case somewhere in Ontario where a land acknowledgement was made to an indigenous group who had displaced another group from that land.  Who do you acknowledge there?
> 
> On the other hand, in this case, we have a specific entity, the Government of Canada, that still exists and can still be held to account for actions.  That is what makes this different than trying to go back and point the finger at Ghengis Khan or the Roman Senate.
> 
> ...


Could see an extension of the reserve governments into surrounding Crown land as a good first move, with a "figure it out between yourselves" approach to boundaries _between _Indigenous jurisdictions. Look at it as analogous to the Canadian Rangers, but for land management.

On a more blue-sky front: turn the infrastructure, authorities, and headaches of the Indigenous part of "...and Northern Affairs" over to e.g. the Assembly, including a Cabinet seat. Figure out a healthy budget, startup funding to deal with things like the drinking water problem, and a balance between providing trained civil service types out of the common pool and opportunities for Indigenous people in "their" chunk of the national government.


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Jun 2021)

I am all for renovating the Indian Act. Remember, however, that PM Harper offered and was torn apart for doing so by the AFN. So, there are layers and competing interests, even within 600 odd First Nations, who all have different ideas about what reconciliation looks like.

I, too, find the “settler/colonizer” language spectacularly unhelpful. It places everyone, by virtue of their skin colour, into a box that they can never escape from and sets up an “us/them” narrative that does not further reconciliation.  I was born in Canada and had no choice in the matter- just like everyone else that was born in Canada, be it in the year 2000, 1900, 1800, or 1000AD.

I find no other alternative than to turn over vast amounts of tax dollars to First Nations, no strings attached, for about a generation. Kill Indigenious Service Canada as a Dept and let local First Nations spend how they want. Build houses, buy more land or businesses, build schools, etc- up to the First Nations to decide. Will there be mistakes, errors and outright theft along the way? You bet. However, don’t think for a second the young people on First Nations land won’t, very quickly, begin to hold their own leadership to account.


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> ... Will there be mistakes, errors and outright theft along the way? You bet. However, don’t think for a second the young people on First Nations land won’t, very quickly, begin to hold their own leadership to account.


This seems to be my day for being contrary for some reason.

Sorry to disagree with the last piece. I think you have to look no further than the CAF to see the model.  Does the CAF membership hold its leaders to account for the massive bureaucracy it has become and the misspent funds. No! Universally it blame the government for not ponying up 2% of the GDP.

I've worked with First Nations, most of which are small entities, and like any small community, are rife with conflicting interests and mismanagement. Often in such communities the majority of members are affiliated with one particular family group and if you belong to the family in power your circumstances for jobs and housing may be significantly better than your neighbour who doesn't belong.

There will always be a need for oversight and and transparency. IMHO the transparency needs to be in the form open and audited books (which many FNs stubbornly refuse to provide to both the government or their membership). There is, however, room to create an overarching oversight bureaucracy that is fundamentally operated by FN members so that individual FNs are accountable to a national FN organization. That may be problematic under existing treaties but if possible might go a long way to taking some of the friction with the government away. 

Unfortunately, I think from the Canadian government's point of view its more convenient to keep the FNs mostly divided and controlled by an Ottawa based bureaucracy that the government is comfortable with.

🍻


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> This seems to be my day for being contrary for some reason.
> 
> Sorry to disagree with the last piece. I think you have to look no further than the CAF to see the model.  Does the CAF membership hold its leaders to account for the massive bureaucracy it has become and the misspent funds. No! Universally it blame the government for not ponying up 2% of the GDP.
> 
> ...


Oh, I am well aware of the family/clan politics/corruption/lack of transparency within a significant number First Nations. The thing is: they can always point the finger and “blame whitey”. Most times, they are at least partially right.

I am saying this- give them the financial resources and let them figure it out. Right now, no non-native can give any criticism or suggestion to improve FN life without it being taken the wrong way.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2021)

Having been involved in FN-government consultation for 20 years, I would say that things on most of the BC Reserves are steadily getting better. I personally get the feeling that the Coastal FN culture was more technology and culturally adaptive than the Prairie/Canadian interior Bands and that plays out in how they engage with the rest of the world. You will find some that want to cling onto the victim mentality, but others purely want acknowledgement and then move onto the future opportunities.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Jun 2021)

Let the games begin:


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jun 2021)

My RCMP friend (who is part FN) says `Yea we will get blamed for it all"


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## OldSolduer (5 Jun 2021)

I see the results of the residential school system daily. FASD, cognitive dysfunction, mental retardation, physical issues that actually makes you wonder how they actually can survive.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jun 2021)

There is residual damage from that and we are obligated to help. However a lot of solutions also must come from within. I see that that happening in the coastal communities, I think though the remote communities are going to continue to suffer as the circle of issues is hard to break with no other options. The reality is that a number of the remote communities are not really sustainable, due to our ham fisted methods of relocation in the past, the decision needs to be theirs and then we help facilitate it. I would like to see a Federal indigenous police force, that is part of the RCMP (admin, training, etc), but separate with a different uniform. Their role is to come into troubled communities and deal with some of the problems in ways the RCMP can't at the moment. I would like to see an expanded Ranger program giving more training, support and opportunities for these communities, with foreign exchange programs with other Arctic Nations with similar units.
Building up more access to the communities both physical and electronic will help. I was utterly shocked at how little Northern infrastructure Ontario has, someone should be lined up and shot for that. BC has very few completed isolated communities and it make a big difference.


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## The Bread Guy (5 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> .... I was utterly shocked at how little Northern infrastructure Ontario has, someone should be lined up and shot for that ...




Expensive putting roads & wires in those areas (one figure I remember from the distant past is something like $1M/km), so provincial & federal governments of all mixes of Red/Blue didn't seem to want to spend that scale of money.


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## lenaitch (5 Jun 2021)

Most remote FNTs in n/w Ontario are policed by the Nishnawabi Aski Police Serice, which free-standing with joint federal-provincial funding (the adequacy of the funding is subject to much debate).  They are supported by the OPP like any other police service.  It was offered to all but a few opted to be policed by Band Special Constables under the OPP.

I don't know how long ago, but access choice was between year-round roads or provincially-operated air strips - the decision was air strips.  I don't recall a real ground swell of demand for year-round roads - many in the communities fear social encroachment because they would be public roads to the reserve boundary.  Maintaining a year-round road on muskeg is astonishingly expensive, and the FNTs, some as small as a few hundred residents, are scattered all over the north.

With the proposed haul road to the Ring of Fire chromite deposit, there is a range of opinions; some want it to go through their community, others don't.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> ... I don't recall a real ground swell of demand for year-round roads - many in the communities fear social encroachment because they would be public roads to the reserve boundary ...


Another good point:  there is no consensus on full-time road connection.  And those that oppose all-season access also worry about the bad things that might come in - not that the bad things stay out now, but it would only accelerate.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2021)

It's not going to get cheaper the longer you wait to build. It take a very long time to reach many of them and if you plan the road right you make air transport cheaper and faster to the non connected ones as goods can be trucked closer.


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## Loachman (6 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Oh, I am well aware of the family/clan politics/corruption/lack of transparency within a significant number First Nations. The thing is: they can always point the finger and “blame whitey”. Most times, they are at least partially right.
> 
> I am saying this- give them the financial resources and let them figure it out. Right now, no non-native can give any criticism or suggestion to improve FN life without it being taken the wrong way.



I would prefer to provide support payments to individual people rather than band governments, as many of the latter are very corrupt as has been noted.

The bands could then tax their people to pay for services. The desire of the people to enforce accountability should improve as it should be much more obvious that they are being ripped off and who is ripping them off.

Property rights should help, as well, as then people would have ownership of and incentive to maintain and improve their houses as they could no longer be displaced at the whim of a corrupt band council.


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I would prefer to provide support payments to individual people rather than band governments, as many of the latter are very corrupt as has been noted.
> 
> The bands could then tax their people to pay for services. The desire of the people to enforce accountability should improve as it should be much more obvious that they are being ripped off and who is ripping them off.
> 
> Property rights should help, as well, as then people would have ownership of and incentive to maintain and improve their houses as they could no longer be displaced at the whim of a corrupt band council.


Good luck with that.

There is a well connected, vocal group at the top of most band structures that jealously guards their power.


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## FJAG (6 Jun 2021)

And there are limits as to what the Federal government can do, legally and morally, under the various treaties it has entered into with FNs.

🍻


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It's not going to get cheaper the longer you wait to build. It take a very long time to reach many of them and if you plan the road right you make air transport cheaper and faster to the non connected ones as goods can be trucked closer.


Sounds like you're making _way_ too much sense for any realistic government solution there, bud .... Not to mention the concept of "it only costs $x million to fix up the diesel generating station _this_ time, but we'll have to find $xxxM to get power lines up there."


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## OldSolduer (6 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> There is a well connected, vocal group at the top of most band structures that jealously guards their power.


And the very public battle between the Métis and FN aren’t helping here in Manitoba


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2021)

Giving a large sum of money to every FN could have some unintended consequences. 

If teenagers and young adults started abandoning the reserves and the north to head to the big city it wouldn't take long for the government to get accused of trying to pick up where the residential schools left off by those left on the reserves with a dwindling population and workforce.

Many of us have seen some of the negative effects of what a large influx of cash can do to CAF members suffering from substance abuse problems or mental health issues. If there are alcohol and drug problems on certain reserves a large influx of cash in everyone's pocket could be pretty detrimental.


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## lenaitch (6 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It's not going to get cheaper the longer you wait to build. It take a very long time to reach many of them and if you plan *the road* right you make air transport cheaper and faster to the non connected ones as goods can be trucked closer.



If it were only "the road":



This is just northwestern Ontario. 


The Bread Guy said:


> Sounds like you're making _way_ too much sense for any realistic government solution there, bud .... Not to mention the concept of "it only costs $x million to fix up the diesel generating station _this_ time, but we'll have to find $xxxM to get power lines up there."



Actually, that initiative is already under way:






						The Wataynikaneyap Transmission Project | FortisOntario Inc.
					






					www.fortisontario.com
				




It's a lot easier to build and maintain a pole line than a year-round road.

The upfront cost would reduce costs in areas such as transportation, consumer goods and housing; however, I'm still not convinced there is a consensus amongst the communities for road connectivity, but stand to be corrected.

These FNTs are located in their various traditional territories.  One challenge is they are now living a non-traditional lifestyle.  Short of resource royalties and some level of employment, there is simply no economic basis for these communities without government support.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> ... I'm still not convinced there is a consensus amongst the communities for road connectivity, but stand to be corrected ....


I read the situation the same as you.


lenaitch said:


> Actually, that initiative is already under way:
> 
> (...)
> 
> It's a lot easier to build and maintain a pole line than a year-round road ...


Good point - not all the remote communities, and still early days, but a good start.


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## lenaitch (6 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> I read the situation the same as you.
> 
> Good point - not all the remote communities, and still early days, but a good start.



They have to first increase the grid capacity to Pickle Lake and Red Lake.  I don't know why the eastern communities aren't included.  Some are quite independent but there might be a legal/technical issue involved - this is area closest to the Ring of Fire mining area.  Two are already on the grid because they lie close to the current feed from Red Lake.  It also doesn't include the communities along the coast of Hudson Bay.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> If it were only "the road":
> 
> View attachment 65371
> 
> ...


Now compare it to other Provinces which have a smaller population, tax base, younger and you will see how Ontario has done a piss poor job.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Now compare it to other Provinces which have a smaller population, tax base, younger and you will see how Ontario has done a piss poor job.


Political lack of will at all levels & all parties notwithstanding, I'm going to guess there's also more geography in play in NW Ontario (40+ communities in an area the size of France) when you compare province-to-province, but I stand to be corrected.


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## Brad Sallows (6 Jun 2021)

> Short of resource royalties and some level of employment, there is simply no economic basis for these communities without government support.



When a mine/mill with a company town closes, so does the company town.



> If teenagers and young adults started abandoning the reserves and the north to head to the big city



Best case, they do.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2021)

Lack of will, you needed a W.A.C. Bennett with some vision. Having spent a lot time on infrastructure projects in Northern BC and the Yukon, I seen the will to increase connectivity of the communities both physically and electronically.


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## brihard (6 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Giving a large sum of money to every FN could have some unintended consequences.
> 
> If teenagers and young adults started abandoning the reserves and the north to head to the big city it wouldn't take long for the government to get accused of trying to pick up where the residential schools left off by those left on the reserves with a dwindling population and workforce.
> 
> Many of us have seen some of the negative effects of what a large influx of cash can do to CAF members suffering from substance abuse problems or mental health issues. If there are alcohol and drug problems on certain reserves a large influx of cash in everyone's pocket could be pretty detrimental.



It’s been a serious issue with CERB. Certainly not one limited to First Nations of course. There are a certain segment of people across all of the population who, given a windfall, are going to quickly piss it away. CERB parties rife with drugs, alcohol, and stupidity have been a definite thing.


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## dapaterson (6 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> It’s been a serious issue with CERB. Certainly not one limited to First Nations of course. There are a certain segment of people across all of the population who, given a windfall, are going to quickly piss it away. CERB parties rife with drugs, alcohol, and stupidity have been a definite thing.



I spent ninety percent of my money on wine, women and song and just wasted the other ten percent.

Ronnie Hawkins


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## Loachman (6 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Good luck with that.
> 
> There is a well connected, vocal group at the top of most band structures that jealously guards their power.


I know.


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## lenaitch (6 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Political lack of will at all levels & all parties notwithstanding, I'm going to guess there's also more geography in play in NW Ontario (40+ communities in an area the size of France) when you compare province-to-province, but I stand to be corrected.



And if France was muskeg.


Brad Sallows said:


> When a mine/mill with a company town closes, so does the company town.
> 
> 
> 
> Best case, they do.



Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure.  Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.

One problem with youth leaving an isolated reserve is it becomes a dispora of mostly unskilled people with limited social supports, much like what already happens in many large urban centres, and the first nation societies have an increasingly weaker ability connect with the land they claim as their traditional territory.

One hundred and fifty-odd years ago, they primarily lived a nomadic or semi-nomadic, land-based, season-influenced lifestyle.  Now they live in houses.  In terms of social anthropology, that is lightning fast.


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## OldSolduer (6 Jun 2021)

This 👍🏻 Was well said 


lenaitch said:


> And if France was muskeg.
> 
> 
> Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure.  Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.
> ...


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## Brad Sallows (6 Jun 2021)

I'm in favour of unskilled people going to where they can acquire skills and work and pursue their own lives; advancement isn't a "problem".  Whether or not the communities they leave lose "connection with the land" or vanish entirely is irrelevant.  It's a hell of a thing to create a system of carrots and sticks that nudges people into remaining trapped between the stone age and the space age.


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## YZT580 (6 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> And if France was muskeg.
> 
> 
> Which is the reason why, in Ontario anyway, the government will no longer approve permanent settlements around new mines, because they are stuck servicing the infrastructure.  Any new mine that is not without a reasonable distance of an existing community (Victor, Detour, Musslewhite, etc.) are just modular with itinerate shifts.
> ...


Which perhaps is one reason that the governments of the day thought that bringing the children out and giving them a 'white' education would be the best thing for them.  Good intentions maybe rotten execution definitely.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Which perhaps is one reason that the governments of the day thought that bringing the children out and giving them a 'white' education would be the best thing for them.  Good intentions maybe rotten execution definitely.


Had it just been education, then they would have achieved much of their goals, instead they went with a social version of the scorched earth and also restricted the FN to their reserve needing permission from the Indian agent to leave. So get your "white education" but we are not going to allow you to use it.


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## lenaitch (7 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> I'm in favour of unskilled people going to where they can acquire skills and work and pursue their own lives; advancement isn't a "problem".  Whether or not the communities they leave lose "connection with the land" or vanish entirely is irrelevant.  It's a hell of a thing to create a system of carrots and sticks that nudges people into remaining trapped between the stone age and the space age.


Perhaps if they (the First Nations) had any say in the matter it would have gone better.  

There is a line from a movie - I don't know if it has any historical basis - that said the goal of the British Empire was to make "the whole world England".  It certainly wasn't alone in the age of exploration and expansion, they were just particularly good at it.  It seems cultural sensitivity wasn't in vogue.


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## CBH99 (7 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Had it just been education, then they would have achieved much of their goals, instead they went with a social version of the scorched earth and also restricted the FN to their reserve needing permission from the Indian agent to leave. So get your "white education" but we are not going to allow you to use it.


Not allowed to use the “white education” they were forced to get, by law.  

But also completely alienated from their own culture as they could not practice their own languages or cultural traditions.  

(I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea.  He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart -  and he had honestly never heard of them.  And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)


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## Brad Sallows (7 Jun 2021)

> Perhaps if they (the First Nations) had any say in the matter it would have gone better.



I doubt it.  Movement from the land into cities and from the cities of the past into the cities of the future is ongoing and disruptive for almost all people.  Two generations ago, my ancestors were very attached to lifestyles of "the land" (and "the sea").  Not so much now.  Anyone who wants that is welcome to it, but no-one should be chained to it.


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## OldSolduer (7 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> (I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea.  He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart -  and he had honestly never heard of them.  And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)


And some people are not aware of the Holocaust of WW II.


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## lenaitch (7 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Not allowed to use the “white education” they were forced to get, by law.
> 
> But also completely alienated from their own culture as they could not practice their own languages or cultural traditions.
> 
> (I read a lot on residential schools the other night as my neighbour & I were sitting in my house chatting over some tea.  He is an elderly gentleman, quite pleasant & smart -  and he had honestly never heard of them.  And was shocked to find out what they were, etc)


The primary intent of the education wasn't the _readin', writin' and 'rithmatic _part, it was to make them 'not Indian' and 'not pagan'.


Brad Sallows said:


> I doubt it.  Movement from the land into cities and from the cities of the past into the cities of the future is ongoing and disruptive for almost all people.  Two generations ago, my ancestors were very attached to lifestyles of "the land" (and "the sea").  Not so much now.  Anyone who wants that is welcome to it, but no-one should be chained to it.


Or forced from it.


----------



## YZT580 (7 Jun 2021)

remember you are talking about a 19th century mentality that we imported from Britain.  They reasoned the same way with regards to any resident of the British Isles that wasn't Anglo-Saxon origin.  Also dig up the history on the children/orphans that were brought over from England and adopted by families particularly in Ontario and Quebec where they were put to work.  And that was right up until the end of WW2.  Their way of getting around the anti-slavery act.  The Indigenous folks were treated no differently.  All bad but not racist.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2021)

64 more pages of Canada's First Nations discussion, 








						Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)
					

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2018/sser-ssro-2018.html  Only 8% result in derailment  ... on main lines - +50% on non-main lines according to the same source.  I'll leave those more expert to explain the difference between the types of lines.




					army.ca
				




and an interesting report on the technology used.








						How the ground-penetrating technology used to locate unmarked graves is both amazing and complex
					

The reality of ground-penetrating radar is both more amazing, and also less clear, than the average person might expect




					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Jun 2021)

> remember you are talking about a 19th century mentality that we imported from Britain.



It was ubiquitous.  Boarding schools weren't invented by and limited to only the UK and its offshoots.  Think about the way people have been treated in various institutions over time - boarding schools, orphanages, asylums.  General neglect and abuse were widespread, and slowly diminished with time and improving sensibilities.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Jun 2021)

One very large recent project I worked on hung up on what might have been a grave, clearly post contact as the local bands put their dead on platforms prior. There were two different bands claiming it and they didn't want to dig it up to confirm whether it was a grave or not. In that particular area the soil was acidic, so there would unlikely be any bones, perhaps some shoes, belt buckle. 

Meanwhile in the UK HS2: service held for 60,000 to be exhumed at Euston burial ground


----------



## quadrapiper (8 Jun 2021)

Leaving the question of whether or not the First Nations would want this aside, are there any CAF assets which might be useful in this work?


----------



## Remius (8 Jun 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> Leaving the question of whether or not the First Nations would want this aside, are there any CAF assets which might be useful in this work?


I believe there is a casualty identification coordinator at DND that deals with that sort of thing, like when WW1 remains are found and need identification.  I’m not sure if that would be the more appropriate asset to be used or if other civilian government services would be better placed.  I’m think maybe the RCMP forensics lab maybe.   Things like identifying causes of death, DNA matching to families etc.  It also really depends on whether the community even wants this done.  I think it was in Manitoba where they found 80 in a mass grave and the community opted to just let them all Rest In Peace.    The very first step is to confirm what the wishes of the indegenous communities would be.  I suspect we’ll see more of these but my feeling is it should be on a community by community basis.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Jun 2021)

Complicated by the fact that the kids that died there came from several different nations, so you would have to get them to come to a consensus as well. I am surprised this is all a big surprise to everyone. The facts were well known and a plan should been in place as to how to deal with this issue, but then INAC and this government is not the best at forward planning, so I shouldn't be surprised....


----------



## Loachman (8 Jun 2021)

Two recent articles:









						The Canadians who thought residential schools were a good idea
					

Over the weekend, protesters in  Toronto  destroyed a statue of  Egerton Ryerson  after repeatedly graffitiing the base with the words “dig them up” — an…




					www.thewhig.com
				












						Kelly McParland: Turning a blind eye to Pierre Trudeau's unseemly Indigenous assimilation plan
					

Macdonald's thinking was rooted in 19th century cultural mores. What was Trudeau’s excuse?




					nationalpost.com
				




And the white paper linked from one of them, which I have only just begun to read: https://oneca.com/1969_White_Paper.pdf


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jun 2021)

People are having a hard time separating the case for political and economic integration (laudable) from the case for cultural assimilation (immoral).  And as has been demonstrated repeatedly over the past couple of years, one bad act or thought supercedes everything else a person did during his life.


----------



## Loachman (8 Jun 2021)

Still, the *decent* and non-arrogant thing would have been to treat them as actual fellow human beings and ask them what they wanted and offered help if they considered it necessary or desirable.


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Jun 2021)

We could wish.  Even today there are people who want parents to be compelled to educate their children in a certain way and to have few alternatives to mandatory public school attendance, and people who openly seek to suppress the practices and beliefs of others.


----------



## Loachman (11 Jun 2021)

Some more sickening reading:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/ron-gosbee-stanne-residential-school-survivor-1.4833133?cmp=DM_Display_CBCIndigenous_PopularNow
		




			https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/st-anne-residential-school-opp-documents
		




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/21-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-indian-act-1.3533613?cmp=DM_Display_CBCIndigenous_PopularNow
		


I have not been a fan of vandalizing and removing statues or renaming structures as a result of holding people to the standards of our times rather than their own, but that is becoming somewhat more difficult of late.

There was an article published several months ago that I cannot now find that laid out a case that Sir John may not have been aware of what was actually happening. That could be true, given less perfect communications of the time, but my doubts are increasing. Willful ignorance/complete lack of concern is my most charitable current theory.

The closest that I could find to the article sought was Sir John A. once more

"Having said this, the question to be asked is obvious: to what extent can Macdonald and his colleagues be held responsible for what eventually took place in the residential schools? Their purpose in creating these schools was an essentially honourable one: to teach Indian children English or French and provide them with an education so as to facilitate their integration into Canadian society. The alternative was to leave the children illiterate, poor and isolated on remote reserves. To intelligent and sensitive men such as Macdonald, Langevin and Ryerson, the choice was obvious: give the children an opportunity to share in the prospects and prosperity of Canada. To blame these men for what eventually went so terribly wrong in the residential school system is not only monstrously unfair, but also distinctly ahistorical."

Providing education is honourable and generous.  *Forcing* it on people is not. Forcing "education" on people to destroy their heritage as a means of assimilating them - as is happening to Uyghurs (and other minorities) today in China - is *evil. *I cannot doubt their intelligence, but I can more than doubt their "sensitivity".

And who created those "remote reserves", and forced people onto them, in the first place?

But how do we balance good actions and bad actions, in any one man?









						Blaming Sir John A. impedes reconciliation process
					

Timothy Tyson, American writer, academic and historian, theorizes: "If there is to be reconciliation, first there must be truth."




					www.thewhig.com
				




And, lastly:









						Local artist weighs in on Macdonald and residential schools
					

Local multimedia artist Pat Shea has created a sculpture that illustrates his opposition to Canada’s residential school system and Canada’s first prime…




					www.thewhig.com


----------



## Loachman (11 Jun 2021)

One thing in one of those articles did give me some pleasure: the photograph of the school torture centre burning.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jun 2021)

Six Nations wants $10M to search residential school grounds, a third of Ottawa's allocated funds



> If approved, it will account for more than a third of the $27.1 million envelope the federal government set aside for communities to identify burial sites.





> Chief Mark Hill said it's a substantial, but necessary request to conduct a full investigation.





> "It's really for justice," Chief Mark Hill told CBC News.





> Money just a start- Hill said the $10 million would be an initial start and he isn't sure it's enough.





> Hill said he would've liked to have seen the money yesterday.


----------



## CBH99 (12 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Complicated by the fact that the kids that died there came from several different nations, so you would have to get them to come to a consensus as well. I am surprised this is all a big surprise to everyone. The facts were well known and a plan should been in place as to how to deal with this issue, but then INAC and this government is not the best at forward planning, so I shouldn't be surprised....


I'll be totally honest here.  I didn't learn a thing about residential schools, at all, during my time in elementary, Jr. High, or Sr. High school.  And even during my college/uni years (have a degree in Criminal Sciences) the topic of Residential Schools never came up.  The challenges of policing on reserves came up, but nothing was discussed about residential schools.

Throughout my childhood & those school years, we learned, very broadly, about the basic history of Canada.  Certain key figures, and the general narrative of 'the white man moving in.'  We learned a very shallow, very basic version of how we took their land, certain events that had taken place, etc.  Nothing in detail, and nothing anyone could honestly describe as a real education about this, as basic as it was.  (Our key learning topics were that Natives were connected to the land, spiritual, nomadic, and the random things connected to the lessons such as 'they liked wolves' and 'had a spiritual connection to the Northern Lights.')

In hindsight, our education about the interactions between Native Americans & Europeans was downright pathetic.  Our teachers did always tell us how much better we were for 'not having slaves like in the US'.  And they gave a token mention to the Chinese who came over to build our railroad, and how dangerous the work was.  A very, very token mention.



The first I had heard about Residential Schools was a few years ago, when residential schools were in the news.  The understanding I got at the time was that 'native children were taken from their families, forced to go schools mandated by the government, some of them were run by the church, and there were some pretty bad abuses taking place.'

It wasn't until my neighbour and I stayed up for hours the other night googling everything we could about residential schools and really taking that time to educate ourselves about what was actually happening, that I realized the extent of it.  He, being an older man who lived most of his life in Newfoundland, hadn't even heard of them.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I'll be totally honest here.  I didn't learn a thing about residential schools, at all, during my time in elementary, Jr. High, or Sr. High school.  And even during my college/uni years (have a degree in Criminal Sciences) the topic of Residential Schools never came up.


You're far from alone, including a lot of other people who are otherwise pretty well & broadly informed - I hear there's even still a few people in government who were surprised after the 215 discovery.


CBH99 said:


> It wasn't until my neighbour and I stayed up for hours the other night googling everything we could about residential schools ...


Googling "nutrition experiment residential school" opens a specific chapter of that book that's pretty sad, too


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (12 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Our teachers did always tell us how much better we were for 'not having slaves like in the US'.



Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).


----------



## brihard (12 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I believe there is a casualty identification coordinator at DND that deals with that sort of thing, like when WW1 remains are found and need identification.  I’m not sure if that would be the more appropriate asset to be used or if other civilian government services would be better placed.  I’m think maybe the RCMP forensics lab maybe.   Things like identifying causes of death, DNA matching to families etc.  It also really depends on whether the community even wants this done.  I think it was in Manitoba where they found 80 in a mass grave and the community opted to just let them all Rest In Peace.    The very first step is to confirm what the wishes of the indegenous communities would be.  I suspect we’ll see more of these but my feeling is it should be on a community by community basis.


Police forensic resources are stretched this as is. Depending on how fully any eventual investigation wants to go into exploring forensics and pathology, this could be an immense task...

Forensic pathologists are medical doctors. They aren’t working for or under the control of police services. Similarly, we don’t have in house forensic anthropologists. Whatever investigation, commission or whatever is established for this, while there will probably be a need for investigative police, most of the real expert help will have to come from the medical and anthropological field.

Right from the start they’ll need to decide what approach to take. A major criminal investigation project? A TRC approach as we’ve seen elsewhere post-atrocity? I don’t even know.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Jun 2021)

This is more archaeology, if the FN want to go down the road of exhuming them. My guess is the majority died of diseases, which is already well known. I suspect is the radar survey will establish the grave sites and they will be marked and undisturbed.

The earlier news release by the local FN   https://tkemlups.ca/wp-content/uploads/05-May-27-2021-TteS-MEDIA-RELEASE.pdf


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Jun 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).


IIRC orphans and unwanted children were shipped here from Britain in the late 1800s? Yes we had slaves.


----------



## CBH99 (12 Jun 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).


Now that I'm older, and the internet exists, and Google makes researching things a lot easier than it was back when I was in school (I remember when Caller ID first came out, and Encarta CD Rom was mind blowing) - I've spent a bit of time every single day, for the past several years, taking the time to learn about a variety of things that I was very much misinformed about when I was young.

A lot of the history we were taught in school was absolute rubbish.  I really can't say anything other than 'pathetic'.  I realize young kids aren't going to retain a ton of information about "Which PM signed this treaty?", so they teach the bare basics.  But not only did we learn the bare basics about some things - we didn't learn anything about some pretty important historical topics, and grossly misinformed about others.


- We didn't have slavery, while the US did.

-  Not a single mention of residential schools

- Europeans came to North America.  Some initial turmoil, cultural differences.  Europeans introduced disease, alcohol, and forced the natives of the land onto Reserves.  That was it really.

-  Basic WW2 "Germans bad, Europe.  Japanese bad, Pacific."  That was pretty much it, minus why November 11th is important and key Canadian contributions.  (Yes, I feel like they mixed WW1 and WW2 up for certain things.  And being honest, we didn't learn a single thing about the Canadians liberating the Dutch.)


I now listen to a lot of Mark Felton, Kyle Hill, and I do enjoy Thoughty2 - while I relax, along with some other history and science channels.  As an adult, I realize now my education about these things was literally a quick gloss over.... sad  😔    (But boy did we ever seem to have plenty of time to learn about quadratic equations!)


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> IIRC orphans and unwanted children were shipped here from Britain in the late 1800s? Yes we had slaves.


As did the First Nations with Slave raids

John R. Jewitt - Wikipedia






						Raiders from the sea
					

Along one of the world’s greatest salmon rivers, archaeologists and First Nations elders discover clues to a turbulent past




					www.canadiangeographic.ca


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## Kilted (12 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> As did the First Nations with Slave raids
> 
> John R. Jewitt - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's not one of the things they teach in schools anymore, that and the cannibal practices of some First Nations,  Joseph Brant seems to have survived cancel culture so far,


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Jun 2021)

That would require doing research and open minded learning to find out about him first of all, then they would cancel or write a fluff piece discounting his entire story.


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## Remius (12 Jun 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).


To an extent yes.  there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.


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## CBH99 (13 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> To an extent yes.  there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.


I've tried to google this a few different ways, but I don't think I'm understanding this in a concrete enough way.  Mind a quick explanation?


----------



## brihard (13 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I've tried to google this a few different ways, but I don't think I'm understanding this in a concrete enough way.  Mind a quick explanation?


Probably slaves as a foundation of major sectors of the economy - e.g., an essential part of the labour force - versus being a domestic luxury for the rich. There’s a reason the southern states went all traitory and started/lost a war over slavery. They depended economically on the total subjugation of other human beings. I don’t believe slavery in Canada was ever close to that widespread. We didn’t have the same sort of plantation agriculture.


----------



## GR66 (13 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> To an extent yes.  there is a big distinction between a slave society, which the US (Rome is a good example of a slave society) at the time was and society with slaves, like Great Britain and others.


I'm also not sure where you're going with the "Slave Society" vs "Society with Slaves" distinction.  You describe Great Britain as a "Society with Slaves" vs a "Slave Society" like Rome or the US, and while you're correct that there were not a great number of slaves held in the British Isles themselves the British economy was indeed very much dependent on the slave labour in its colonies that provided the foundation for its trade economy.

You can see here (Infographic: The Countries Most Active in the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade) how deeply involved in the trans-Atlantic slave trade Britain was involved.

And as mentioned by Brihard, slavery in Canada may not have been as widespread as in the US, but that's much more due to the Canadian climate not being suited to large scale, labour intensive agriculture (like cotton and sugar cane) that would require a large number of slaves rather than due to any moral superiority of the British and French settlers living here vs settlers from those very same nations extensively using slaves elsewhere.



Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Except that they were wrong: We did have slavery and slaves in Canada, just not in large numbers and for farm work. The rich families of Montreal, Quebec and Halifax, amongst others, had slaves for domestic work until slavery was abolished in England (and by ricochet, in the British Empire).


I think this is also a somewhat false narrative we've been fed to make ourselves feel better (and superior) about our history with regard to slavery.  That our slaves were merely basically domestic servants in the homes of the wealthy.  In fact, slaves were extensively owned at all levels of society and performed all types of labour (including farm work) and faced many of the same harsh treatments faced by slaves south of the border, including beatings, rape and execution.  (Black Enslavement in Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia.)


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## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Probably slaves as a foundation of major sectors of the economy - e.g., an essential part of the labour force - versus being a domestic luxury for the rich. There’s a reason the southern states went all traitory and started/lost a war over slavery. They depended economically on the total subjugation of other human beings. I don’t believe slavery in Canada was ever close to that widespread. We didn’t have the same sort of plantation agriculture.


Exactly.  Rome and a large part of the US relied on slaves to keep their economy going and in certain ways as a way to maintain leisurely existence.    Rome and the US though, having a big difference in that slavery wasn’t race based in Rome. But that is another interesting conversation.

i came across the expression while visiting Louibourg.  They have a plaque dedicated to the first slave brought there explaining it nicely.



			https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-difference-between-society-with-slaves-slave-306531
		




			English North America: Slave Societies vs. Societies with Slaves · African Passages, Lowcountry Adaptations · Lowcountry Digital History Initiative
		


A few links that explains it a bit.  

Canada was never a slave society, even in it’s earlier incarnations.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2021)

The Canadian Museum of Human Rights has a good background piece on the subject of slavery in BNA:


Slavery in British North America

Slavery continued after the British conquest of New France in 1763. The territory was eventually renamed British North America, and Black enslaved people came to replace Indigenous enslaved people. Compared to the United States, enslaved people made up a much smaller proportion of the population in British North America. This means that some of the worst traits of slavery in America, such as the employment of overseers and the horrible practice of forcing enslaved people to reproduce, did not happen in what is now Canada. It would be wrong, however, to suggest that enslaved people in British North America were well‐treated. The very nature of slavery meant that its victims were stripped of their basic human rights and exploited. Most wills from the time treated enslaved people as nothing more than property, passing on ownership of human beings the same as they would furniture, cattle or land.5 Defiant or troublesome enslaved people were often severely punished. Physical and sexual abuse was always a very real threat.









						The story of slavery in Canadian history | CMHR
					

Dignity, respect and inclusion matter to us all. Join us on a journey like no other and experience human rights stories from Canada and around the world.




					humanrights.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2021)

Talk about glossing over the slavery by First Nation for thousands of years. When the HBC men asked the Cree who the other FN's where, they called the Dene "The Slaves" as that is the group they raided the most for slaves. They also called the other First Nations "Dogs"


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## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Talk about glossing over the slavery by First Nation for thousands of years. When the HBC men asked the Cree who the other FN's where, they called the Dene "The Slaves" as that is the group they raided the most for slaves. They also called the other First Nations "Dogs"


Actually there is quite a body of work on pre colonial slavery.  A bit of a different beast but a facsinating subject and varied from culture to culture.   The Haida apparently were quite known for slavery and it being hereditary in nature.  Also many native cultures participated in slave trading when Europeans brought their brand of slavery to the americas.


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2021)

I was talking about the link that D&B provided.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I was talking about the link that D&B provided.


 
Dude.... you have no idea how to attract 'guilt funding', do you?  

One of the better reconciliation programs I've seen recently is the artifact repatriation program being run by the Royal BC Museum. They ask local First Nations if they'd like their art back, which was taken many years ago from remote villages on the coast (ostensibly to ensure that it survived). 

Some communities say 'no, please keep it becausee you have great facilities to store and display it, but thanks for asking us.' And they wind up building good longer term relationships that they can build on to facilitate sharing historical treasures back and forth.


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2021)

I think I have reached maximum capacity of "The noble First Nations living in harmony before contact". As my Persian friend says "They only been invaded once?"


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## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Dude.... you have no idea how to attract 'guilt funding', do you?
> 
> One of the better reconciliation programs I've seen recently is the artifact repatriation program being run by the Royal BC Museum. They ask local First Nations if they'd like their art back, which was taken many years ago from remote villages on the coast (ostensibly to ensure that it survived).
> 
> Some communities say 'no, please keep it becausee you have great facilities to store and display it, but thanks for asking us.' And they wind up building good longer term relationships that they can build on to facilitate sharing historical treasures back and forth.


I heard of something similar about Inuit art and sculptures in Regina maybe?  But basically they offered to return the art to the Inuit communities and the overwhelming response was to keep it so other people could see it.   That it would get more exposure there.


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## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I think I have reached maximum capacity of "The noble First Nations living in harmony before contact". As my Persian friend says "They only been invaded once?"


I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types.


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types.


I've seen this sacrificial stone in the museum in Mexico City. It was in use for hundreds of years and likely has a bigger body count than the 8th Air Force:
Human sacrifice in Aztec culture​
When the Aztecs sacrificed people to Huitzilopochtli (the god with warlike aspects) the victim would be placed on a sacrificial stone.[30] The priest would then cut through the abdomen with an obsidian or flint blade.[31] The heart would be torn out still beating and held towards the sky in honor to the Sun-God. The body would then be pushed down the pyramid where the Coyolxauhqui stone could be found. The Coyolxauhqui Stone recreates the story of Coyolxauhqui, Huitzilopochtli's sister who was dismembered at the base of a mountain, just as the sacrificial victims were.[32] The body would be carried away and either cremated or given to the warrior responsible for the capture of the victim. He would either cut the body in pieces and send them to important people as an offering, or use the pieces for ritual cannibalism. The warrior would thus ascend one step in the hierarchy of the Aztec social classes, a system that rewarded successful warriors.[33]









						Human sacrifice in Aztec culture - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2021)

_I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types._

I have heard it for years out here from all sorts, pretty much all whites of both sexes and every class. I did a lot of FN consultation and I can count on one hand and have spare fingers for the times I have heard a FN person say it. Most of the FN people are oblivious of how bad treatment could be on non-native in a similar time, which I get, they were wrapped up in their own trauma. I am fairly forgiving of my ancestors up until the beginning of the 20th century. After that time period, things improved rapidly for poor/discriminated non-FN people, but the FN's were totally screwed by the Indian Act, Indian Agents and bureaucrats, along with the PC class of the time supporting bad decisions. I swear most people information they have on FN's is from Disney, which is also where they seem to have gotten most of their information on the environment from as well. Mind you the FN, don't work to hard to educate these people, as it's not in their economic interest to do so.

DB - Lets not forget the walls made from skulls! When the Conquistadors arrived, many of the subjugated tribes quickly aligned with them to overthrow the Azetec leadership and for good reason.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I have heard it for years out here from all sorts, pretty much all whites of both sexes and every class. I did a lot of FN consultation and I can count on one hand and have spare fingers for the times I have heard a FN person say it. Most of the FN people are oblivious of how bad treatment could be on non-native in a similar time, which I get, they were wrapped up in their own trauma. I am fairly forgiving of my ancestors up until the beginning of the 20th century. After that time period, things improved rapidly for poor/discriminated non-FN people, but the FN's were totally screwed by the Indian Act, Indian Agents and bureaucrats, along with the PC class of the time supporting bad decisions. I swear most people information they have on FN's is from Disney, which is also where they seem to have gotten most of their information on the environment from as well. Mind you the FN, don't work to hard to educate these people, as it's not in their economic interest to do so.



At the risk of over generalizing, I also think that 'they' in general are exceedingly polite and resist trying to preach to others out of a sense of respect. 

We can learn alot from people like that.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jun 2021)

My meetings were all over the map. Some were friendly, funny, polite, while others were downright hostile with insults being hurled and other things. Plus in large multigroup meetings you would often see the men generally talking over the women and old feuds between bands would surface. Sometimes how they act is all part of the negotiating game.


----------



## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

I took two native studies courses at University.  One was absolute garbage.  The professor was pushing communism in a native studies course.  The other was absolutely fascinating.  Pre colonial warfare, trade and diplomacy.  We covered neolithic tribes all the way to societies on the cusp of imperialism.  Was an eye opener and non of it was sanitized.


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## Remius (13 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> _I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types._
> 
> I have heard it for years out here from all sorts, pretty much all whites of both sexes and every class. I did a lot of FN consultation and I can count on one hand and have spare fingers for the times I have heard a FN person say it. Most of the FN people are oblivious of how bad treatment could be on non-native in a similar time, which I get, they were wrapped up in their own trauma. I am fairly forgiving of my ancestors up until the beginning of the 20th century. After that time period, things improved rapidly for poor/discriminated non-FN people, but the FN's were totally screwed by the Indian Act, Indian Agents and bureaucrats, along with the PC class of the time supporting bad decisions. I swear most people information they have on FN's is from Disney, which is also where they seem to have gotten most of their information on the environment from as well. Mind you the FN, don't work to hard to educate these people, as it's not in their economic interest to do so.
> 
> DB - Lets not forget the walls made from skulls! When the Conquistadors arrived, many of the subjugated tribes quickly aligned with them to overthrow the Azetec leadership and for good reason.


Dances with Wolves.  Blame Kevin Costner.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Jun 2021)

There was a pitched battle along the route of what is now Highway 16 in BC, the local natives fortified it as it was a pinch point between high terrain and the river. I think I got the coordinate right  52° 8'36.79"N 123°56'9.20"W


----------



## Remius (14 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> There was a pitched battle along the route of what is now Highway 16 in BC, the local natives fortified it as it was a pinch point between high terrain and the river. I think I got the coordinate right  52° 8'36.79"N 123°56'9.20"W


Everybody assumes that pre colonial natives fought with light raiding forces but pitched battles, fortifications armour and shields were used,  there are accounts even of Haida armour stopping bullets.  Some amazing history.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> _I’m not sure that is something common outside of Hollywood or left wing non native types._
> 
> 
> 
> DB - Lets not forget the walls made from skulls! When the Conquistadors arrived, many of the subjugated tribes quickly aligned with them to overthrow the Azetec leadership and for good reason.


But did they make drinking cups from the skulls of their enemies?  😈


----------



## Weinie (14 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> But did they make drinking cups from the skulls of their enemies?  😈


Can I buy one of those on Amazon?


----------



## Loachman (14 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Can I buy one of those on Amazon?


From one of _my_ enemies?

I haven't got that far yet...


----------



## Loachman (14 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I've seen this sacrificial stone in the museum in Mexico City. It was in use for hundreds of years and likely has a bigger body count than the 8th Air Force:
> Human sacrifice in Aztec culture​



I bought a replica Mayan obsidian sacrificial knife at Chichen Itza in early 2009.

If I ever wanted to have my heart slashed out - and I do not - I certainly wouldn't opt for that, were any choice of implement given.

It's *thick*.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Can I buy one of those on Amazon?


Lets start our own `Dark Amazon` where one can purchase only weird stuff. And guitars and guitar accessories.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I bought a replica Mayan obsidian sacrificial knife at Chichen Itza in early 2009.
> 
> If I ever wanted to have my heart slashed out - and I do not - I certainly wouldn't opt for that, were any choice of implement given.
> 
> It's *thick*.


From my reading and visit down there, I get the impression that the more the victim suffered the better in their eyes.


----------



## Loachman (14 Jun 2021)

I cannot recall the author's name, but there was a most excellent historical novel entitled, simply, "Aztec" that I read many years ago. I highly recommend it.


----------



## cavalryman (14 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I cannot recall the author's name, but there was a most excellent historical novel entitled, simply, "Aztec" that I read many years ago. I highly recommend it.


Gary Jennings. He also wrote The Journeyer which I quite enjoyed - a fictionalized account of Marco Polo's travels, and Thorn, which I found a little more disturbing.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Jun 2021)

Here we go...

2 Catholic churches destroyed in overnight fires in Okanagan​Sacred Heart Church, St. Gregory's Church were both on fire around the same time early Monday​
Two Catholic churches have been destroyed after separate overnight fires in the South Okanagan area of B.C.

The Sacred Heart Church on Penticton Indian Band lands was burned early Monday morning, the parish confirmed with CBC on Monday.

The St. Gregory's Church, in the Oliver area on Osoyoos Indian Band lands, was also in flames around the same time.

Catholic Father Obi Ibekwe said the parish would be waiting for results of an RCMP investigation before making further comment.

Penticton and Oliver are roughly 40 kilometres apart.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/catholic-churches-burned-osoyoos-penticton-1.6073976?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_283676


----------



## Kilted (21 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Here we go...
> 
> 2 Catholic churches destroyed in overnight fires in Okanagan​Sacred Heart Church, St. Gregory's Church were both on fire around the same time early Monday​
> Two Catholic churches have been destroyed after separate overnight fires in the South Okanagan area of B.C.
> ...


Nothing good will come of this.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2021)

Manitoulin Island First Nations leaders ask people not to celebrate Canada Day

Done and done. What else can I do?


----------



## Quirky (21 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Nothing good will come of this.



Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.


----------



## cavalryman (21 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.


Just out of curiosity, would you say the same for mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras, temples, etc? Or is your focus entirely on Christian houses of worship? Asking for a friend.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Jun 2021)

> Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing.



Doubt it. Once the religion is emptied out of a person's mind, a void remains which most find hard to fill; there is no longer any higher authority to appeal to in order to settle the matter of what ought to be nor any hope to cling to in adversity except what one creates for oneself.  A few can manage this; most break.


----------



## Loachman (21 Jun 2021)

cavalryman said:


> Just out of curiosity, would you say the same for mosques



I dare him.

And I really want to see the video.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Manitoulin Island First Nations leaders ask people not to celebrate Canada Day
> 
> Done and done. What else can I do?


Apparently the chief of the band where this all started has said he believes that Canada day should go on and people should learn and grow.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.


Maybe you could destroy a Sweat Lodge on June 30 to assist the Indigenous folk too see your shining guidance also.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.


Really? I guess the girl guides, dog training, AA groups, kids basketball, badminton groups that rent the local church does not count? Nor apparently do the soup kitchens, the senior programs, the overseas youth support and overseas community support they give counts for nothing? How about the choir groups, I guess gospel and other music forms like Motown can dwindle away?


----------



## Loachman (21 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Really? I guess the girl guides, dog training, AA groups, kids basketball, badminton groups that rent the local church does not count? Nor apparently do the soup kitchens, the senior programs, the overseas youth support and overseas community support they give counts for nothing? How about the choir groups, I guess gospel and other music forms like Motown can dwindle away?


Sponsoring refugees - and doing a much-better job of it than the federal government. Many sponsoring groups still maintain friendships with the families whom they sponsored and guided years ago. Federally-sponsored refugees were, in many cases, pretty much abandoned to their own devices at the end of a year.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Jun 2021)

Not to mention welcoming Muslims into their midst, with no requirement or even ask to convert, one lady came from a particular sect in Africa that did not fit the "mainstream Sunni" idea of worship, she found community and a place to worship Allah at the church.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.



That sounds similar to what the Emperor of mankind said to Uriah Olathaire, before being elevated to God-Emperor of mankind.


----------



## lenaitch (21 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Doubt it. Once the religion is emptied out of a person's mind, a void remains which most find hard to fill; there is no longer any higher authority to appeal to in order to settle the matter of what ought to be nor any hope to cling to in adversity except what one creates for oneself.  A few can manage this; most break.



A void is only created when something leaves.  What if that 'something' was never there?  Thousands of people are successfully raised in a secular environment everyday.  If the position is that they are somehow lacking and perhaps just don't realize it, that would a tad judgmental.

I get faith, I don't get organized religion.


----------



## blacktriangle (21 Jun 2021)

Some were good farmers. Some were good bricklayers. Others were good story tellers. And they needed some of that crop yield, and some bricks laid too...

But in this day & age, are churches the biggest problem we have? Hardly. As many others have pointed out, many do a lot of good in the community when the government can't or won't. It still doesn't make any of it real, but it also isn't a huge priority to dismantle. If organized religion helps some people find purpose in their life, that's awesome. Wish it worked for me!


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.


I’m not a worshipper but you’re crossing a line. Maybe you don’t like religions but some very good folk do.
I don’t like soccer so let’s dismantle that field by field


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jun 2021)

And let's keep the church/religion talk on this thread in the context of the original topic.

Believe/non believe??    Lots of other forums for that.
Thank you,
Bruce


----------



## Remius (22 Jun 2021)

If this was arson,  and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.  

the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic.  I get it.  It has financial ramifications.  But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.

In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent.  Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.


----------



## Kilted (22 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> If this was arson,  and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.
> 
> the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic.  I get it.  It has financial ramifications.  But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.
> 
> In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent.  Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.


Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time?  Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?

Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism?  If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> ... Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe? ...


Given that statements at least adjacent to an apology have been delivered in 2018 and 2010 to people mistreated while in the Catholic church's care, some can be forgiven for thinking it's_ not_ Papal infallibility holding things back here.

For the record, here's what Canada's Conference of Catholic Bishops has had to say about who's responsible - highlights mine:


> The Catholic community in Canada has a decentralized structure.  Each Diocesan Bishop is autonomous in his diocese and, although relating to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, is not accountable to it.
> 
> *Approximately 16 out of 70 Catholic dioceses in Canada were associated with the former Indian Residential Schools, in addition to about three dozen Catholic religious communities.  **Each diocese and religious community is corporately and legally responsible for its own actions. The Catholic Church as a whole in Canada was not associated with the Residential Schools, nor was the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops**.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Remius (22 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time?  Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?
> 
> Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism?  If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.


Hey, I'm being careful not to declare it as arson until the authorities say so.  Like I said it isn't hard to jump to that conclusion. 

Papal apologies aren't a new concept and has happened before for a variety of things.  The Irish sex abuse scandal, the treatment of Latin America during colonial times, the role the church played during the holocaust etc etc.  Normally the Pope does it in person.

The concept of Papal infallibility is related to Church Doctrine and Faith.  It has to meet certain conditions and isn't universally accepted nor is it something that's been around for that long (I think it was introduced in the late 1800s early 1900s but would have to check).  So I would argue that no.  A lack of apology has nothing to do with that.

Now is it a hate crime or not?  Maybe.  Terrorism?  It would depend on the motivation but I would be less likely to support that argument.  Not enough info right now to know.  I see it in a similar to vandalism caused to monuments and symbols.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2021)

Also for the record, *some franchises of Big Church* seem to be trying to do the right thing* ....


> Ottawa-Cornwall Archbishop Marcel Damphousse issued a formal apology Monday to Indigenous people for the Catholic Church's role in the residential school system.
> 
> He also called on Pope Francis, the global head of the church of approximately 1.3 billion people, to apologize, as well ...


Meanwhile, elsewhere in Big Church ...


> Cardinal Thomas Collins, the archbishop of Toronto, said Sunday that a "dramatic" step such as a formal apology from the Pope is perhaps not the best route forward in grappling with the Catholic Church's role in Canada's residential school system.
> 
> "I'm sure there will be further contact with the Holy Father, but I don't know whether seeking always some big and dramatic thing is really the way forward. I think step by step is better and working with other people," Collins said in an interview on _Rosemary Barton Live_.
> 
> "I think that the much more important thing is the day-to-day work, quietly, gently," he told CBC chief political correspondent Rosemary Barton ...


*** - This is to differentiate the "corporate" church/bureaucracy from all the branches/churches/parishes that truly are doing good things to help people out there.


----------



## Loachman (22 Jun 2021)

The Fight Over Canada’s Founding Prime Minister
					

Attacks on symbols of nationhood are not merely symbolic actions. They strike at the nationhood the symbol represents.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Remius (22 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> The Fight Over Canada’s Founding Prime Minister
> 
> 
> Attacks on symbols of nationhood are not merely symbolic actions. They strike at the nationhood the symbol represents.
> ...


An excellent article in defence of MacDonald.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Jun 2021)

Using the standards to attack MacDonald, the majority of FN Bands should be censured as well for promoting slavery and oppression of women. Not to mention the inhumane treatment of prisoners in their care.


----------



## Loachman (22 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> An excellent article in defence of MacDonald.



I'm not a huge fan of either David Frum or The Atlantic, but I thought so as well.

I'd read something similar in the Kingston paper - also outlining that it was very unlikely that he could have known what was actually happening - a few months ago but could not find it online. This, I think, was better.

I had waffled on my support for Sir John, and my natural objection to statue removals and other history purges had waned somewhat, since reading more about the particular horrors suffered in those schools but I am back to seeing him as somebody who did far more good than bad.

. . . While still *completely* conscious of the evils committed on those children and their families.


----------



## Remius (22 Jun 2021)

I was going to comment on youusing Frum or the Atlantic lol.  But it’s more about the argument and the point he makes.

It is a balancing act.  I think what the Kingston Coucil did was about as much as they could and struck a decent balance.  

it’s a case by case situation in my mind.  I have no issues with places in the US removing statues of traitors and that were erected for the sole purpose of reminding a minority of who was still in charge.

I don’t think though, that a statue to Sir John A would have been erected with the same goals or purpose.  We can’t deny that he was and is our first PM.   Instrumental in what Canada would become.  I am also conscious that for some, he heralded in the end of certain ways of life even though he himself may not have been responsible.

It was a well argued article that gives one food for thought.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Jun 2021)

As I said before, the people prior to the 20th century had some reasoning in their beliefs even if you disagree with them and life was a lot harder all around. But after the start of the 20th century, the differences between lifestyle and health outcomes between native and non-native begin to diverge quickly. It was at the start of the 20th Century that Eugenics started to take hold in the minds of the upper class and Elite and I suspect that line of reasoning had a lot to do with it.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Jun 2021)

So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?


You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…
> 
> How long before this statue comes down?
> 
> ...



But he was good at shoveling money off the back of the truck to everyone in Eastern Canada, so we'll overlook that


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Jun 2021)

XXX


----------



## Quirky (22 Jun 2021)

cavalryman said:


> Just out of curiosity, would you say the same for mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras, temples, etc? Or is your focus entirely on Christian houses of worship? Asking for a friend.


Yes sir, religion is the real pandemic on this planet. But that’s a discussion for another thread.


----------



## Loachman (22 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I was going to comment on youusing Frum or the Atlantic lol.  But it’s more about the argument and the point he makes.



I read/watch things across a reasonably-wide spectrum, generally not bothering with the looney-extreme fringes but occasionally going for a dip just to maintain some awareness of what's lurking out there. I came across that one on Bourque Newswatch. He leans left, but drags up some interesting articles that I might otherwise miss at times and has some good links pages. He no longer refreshes articles as frequently as he did a few years ago.



Remius said:


> It is a balancing act.  I think what the Kingston Coucil did was about as much as they could and struck a decent balance.



I rather thought so as well. It could have been worse.



Remius said:


> it’s a case by case situation in my mind.  I have no issues with places in the US removing statues of traitors and that were erected for the sole purpose of reminding a minority of who was still in charge.



"Traitors"?

As in Confederate Generals?

The US states have more autonomy than our provinces, so there was a contest of loyalty for many when the US Civil War broke out. To which does one owes one's primary loyalty - one's state, or the union of states, which had become broken? Americans do not swear an oath to a king or queen or any other individual, but a flag and a constitution. I've not attempted to determine if states had/have a right to secede from a union which they had freely and voluntarily joined, but believe that they should, similar to Britain joining and leaving the EU.

Those were hard personal decisions to make, and I envy none who had to make them, or fight against friends and former colleagues on the other side, or even family members in some cases.

But there was a conscious decision made, once it was over, re-unify and reconcile and rebuild, including accepting personnel back into the Union Army without sanction for simply fighting on the losing side.

I see nothing wrong with statues honouring men who fought valiantly and ethically and did their duty well as they saw fit, and I do not agree with removing them - especially by mob.

And I do not agree with applying today's standards to people from centuries past.



Remius said:


> I don’t think though, that a statue to Sir John A would have been erected with the same goals or purpose.  We can’t deny that he was and is our first PM.   Instrumental in what Canada would become.  I am also conscious that for some, he heralded in the end of certain ways of life even though he himself may not have been responsible.



The "new way of life" was not completely, if at all, imposed by him, but by others over whom he had no control - like those who almost completely wiped out the buffalo.



Remius said:


> It was a well argued article that gives one food for thought.



Yes, it was.

And most of the past is a complete mess.

I am still awaiting restitution and apologies from the Normans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors, and the Danes who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Romans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Celts who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the . . .

But I would, almost guaranteed, have to make reparations and give grovelling apologies to each contingent as well, as various ancestors were raping, pillaging, and plundering other ancestors in turn - most probably all of the way from Africa and through the middle east and Europe and Scandinavia to the green and sceptered isle.


----------



## Loachman (22 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…
> 
> How long before this statue comes down?
> 
> You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”



Somebody did paint a statue of him somewhere black not too long ago.

But perhaps they thought that it was the more recent Trudeau.


----------



## Kilted (22 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I am still awaiting restitution and apologies from the Normans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors, and the Danes who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Romans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Celts who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the . . .
> 
> But I would, almost guaranteed, have to make reparations and give grovelling apologies to each contingent as well, as various ancestors were raping, pillaging, and plundering other ancestors in turn - most probably all of the way from Africa and through the middle east and Europe and Scandinavia to the green and sceptered isle.


I would say the same thing, but I'm descended from all of them.  The British people are a mixup of mostly Celtic/Breton-German-Norse peoples who have gradually interbred.  Most people of British descent are a lot more closely related than they think.  Another reason why I think any attempt to break-up the UK is silly.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Jun 2021)

Speaking of interbreeding, that's a big topic in some bands with the "Half-breeds" starting to outnumber the "True bloods" and some high caste families trying to maintain that true blood by marrying only other full-blooded Indians. The good news is that the half-breeds don't have a fantasy of what life was like and are generally faster to adapt to the world around them.


----------



## Remius (22 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I read/watch things across a reasonably-wide spectrum, generally not bothering with the looney-extreme fringes but occasionally going for a dip just to maintain some awareness of what's lurking out there. I came across that one on Bourque Newswatch. He leans left, but drags up some interesting articles that I might otherwise miss at times and has some good links pages. He no longer refreshes articles as frequently as he did a few years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there is place for a lot of those statues but many of them, especially the the pro slavery ones, were placed during the Jim Crow era with a different purpose in mind.  Gettysburg is a great example of monuments done right.  Or communities that may have given their sons to the fight.  But even some states that weren’t even confederate states put some up.









						How The US Got So Many Confederate Monuments
					

These commemorations tell a national story.




					www.history.com
				




But I guess that is another discussion. Sorry to derail.

Unfortunately the restitution arguments for bygone eras don’t hold much water.  The legal entities responsible for more recent events like residential schools are still around as has been pointed out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> .... The US states have more autonomy than our provinces, so there was a contest of loyalty for many when the US Civil War broke out. To which does one owes one's primary loyalty - one's state, or the union of states, which had become broken?  ... Those were hard personal decisions to make, and I envy none who had to make them, or fight against friends and former colleagues on the other side, or even family members in some cases ... I see nothing wrong with statues honouring men who fought valiantly and ethically and did their duty well as they saw fit, and I do not agree with removing them - especially by mob ...


The only problem with using the "individuals had tough choices to make & did their best" argument is that throughout history, that's always been true, in causes both just and unjust - including individual clergy in the residential schools.  I'll bet you could find Soviets who truly felt they were doing the right thing "helping" the Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians & Estonians during WW2.  That said, once Past Management left the old Warsaw Pact countries, can you blame them for not wanting to see statues of people who brought on what they did, regardless of their intentions?   I don't hear/read/see a lot of people calling on folks living in former Soviet republics to stop being whiners, get on with life, and keep Soviet statues/landmarks up as long as there's a fuller explanation of the history behind them.  Well, outside of Russian leaders & commentators, anyway.


Loachman said:


> ... I am still awaiting restitution and apologies from the Normans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors, and the Danes who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Romans who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the Celts who invaded my ancestral lands and raped, pillaged, and plundered my ancestors before them, and the . . .
> 
> But I would, almost guaranteed, have to make reparations and give grovelling apologies to each contingent as well, as various ancestors were raping, pillaging, and plundering other ancestors in turn - most probably all of the way from Africa and through the middle east and Europe and Scandinavia to the green and sceptered isle.


Where does it stop/end?  $64,000 question (no compensation pun intended).  But I like to think we want to do _better_, not "only _just _better".


----------



## Kilted (22 Jun 2021)

It doesn't end.  Not till both sides get rid of the us vs them mentality.  As long as a good number of natives are segregated from society there will always be a divide that will bring up old memories.  A hundred years from now we will probably still be having the same conversation.


----------



## YZT580 (23 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> It doesn't end.  Not till both sides get rid of the us vs them mentality.  As long as a good number of natives are segregated from society there will always be a divide that will bring up old memories.  A hundred years from now we will probably still be having the same conversation.


And as long as the Indian Act is allowed to exist in whatever form it has now there is going to be segregation.   Changing a name or removing a statue will accomplish squat.  As any person who has suffered through a divorce caused by infidelity or just plain abandonment they never stopped hurting until they were able to put the offense behind them, quit playing the blame game and start liking themselves again.  And that is really hard to do.  They can't wait until government, church or whatever makes things right: they neither can nor will at least not to the grieved person's satisfaction.  No restitution can compensate for a lost child or a lost childhood and there are no words that are adequate.  It has to be the grieved person who lets go.  The publicity certainly doesn't help.  It is like tearing the scab off a recent wound: you get to experience the pain and bleeding all over again and to what purpose?  Everyone knew the bodies were there.  In a number of locations the graves are marked by tombstones or at least were until they caved in or rotted.  What they need more than anything is self-respect and that won't happen until there are decent jobs, decent accommodation, decent connections with the rest of the world and leadership that actually takes responsibility oh and clean water that doesn't need boiling.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2021)

YZT580 said:


> And as long as the Indian Act is allowed to exist in whatever form it has now there is going to be segregation.   Changing a name or removing a statue will accomplish squat.  As any person who has suffered through a divorce caused by infidelity or just plain abandonment they never stopped hurting until they were able to put the offense behind them, quit playing the blame game and start liking themselves again.  And that is really hard to do.  They can't wait until government, church or whatever makes things right: they neither can nor will at least not to the grieved person's satisfaction.  No restitution can compensate for a lost child or a lost childhood and there are no words that are adequate.  It has to be the grieved person who lets go.  The publicity certainly doesn't help.  It is like tearing the scab off a recent wound: you get to experience the pain and bleeding all over again and to what purpose?  Everyone knew the bodies were there.  In a number of locations the graves are marked by tombstones or at least were until they caved in or rotted.  What they need more than anything is self-respect and that won't happen until there are decent jobs, decent accommodation, decent connections with the rest of the world and leadership that actually takes responsibility oh and clean water that doesn't need boiling.


OMG you are so right.


----------



## Loachman (23 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> I would say the same thing, but I'm descended from all of them.



That was my point. So am I.

It is important to remember and *understand* history, but history should not hinder our present and our future.

Centuries of denominational violence, between people who worship the same God and Messiah, in Northern Ireland, and the violent break-up of Yugoslavia are two prime examples. "Your great-great-grandfather killed my great-great-grandfather so I'm going to kill you in revenge" solves nothing, and destroys both sides' chances of peace and prosperity.

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"

I doubt that many First Nations people today would want to give up any of the benefits that resulted from British, French, and other European migration.

I have yet to see any real solutions or proposals for true reconciliation, as there is too much polarization and also too many factions here - and too much money involved.

We are a marvellous species, but we also suck.


----------



## Loachman (23 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Speaking of interbreeding, that's a big topic in some bands with the "Half-breeds" starting to outnumber the "True bloods" and some high caste families trying to maintain that true blood by marrying only other full-blooded Indians. The good news is that the half-breeds don't have a fantasy of what life was like and are generally faster to adapt to the world around them.



No matter how much we may look alike, there is always somebody who wants to exploit the slightest difference to divide people for his or her own gain - be it power, prestige, money, or just a petty feeling of superiority over a "lesser" individual.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Speaking of interbreeding, that's a big topic in some bands with the "Half-breeds" starting to outnumber the "True bloods" and some high caste families trying to maintain that true blood by marrying only other full-blooded Indians. The good news is that the half-breeds don't have a fantasy of what life was like and are generally faster to adapt to the world around them.


And that is exactly what the Egyptian Ptolemic dynasty did except that dynasty was not Egyptian - it was Greek and Ptolemy got Egypt when Alex The Great's empire broke up. That dynasty had brothers and sisters marry in belief that the blood line would remain pure....

Other royal families have done the same - marrying first cousins etc until you end up with a genetic mutation that makes Forrest Gump look like a genius.


----------



## Loachman (23 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> A hundred years from now we will probably still be having the same conversation.



An optimist, you are.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> An optimist, you are.


Hey, it's not like he's saying the conversation'll be _concluded_ by then ....


----------



## Loachman (23 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> The only problem with using the "individuals had tough choices to make & did their best" argument is that throughout history, that's always been true, in causes both just and unjust.



What was a young German, for example, *reasonably* expected to do when conscripted between 1939 and 1945? What about a professional Officer, already serving? Many did not accept Nazism, but only a small few dared to actively resist/revolt against it.

I have nothing against statues honouring commanders, units, or soldiers of losing sides as long as they fought honourably and ethically.

A statue of a slave-owner whipping one of his victims, however, would be completely different, as would a statue of a war criminal.

A statue of Sir John causes me no offence - we all, today, benefit from his accomplishments (although, if he'd failed, we would have the benefit of the US Second Amendment). A statue of a priest or nun beating a child victim most definitely would.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jun 2021)

People forget that when he became the PM, some of the last slave raids on the westcoast by First Nations had happened less than a decade earlier. that was the culture he was opposed to.










						Freedom Village - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








__





						LEARNING OUTCOMES
					





					www.web.uvic.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> An optimist, you are.


Yes Master Yoda


----------



## Remius (24 Jun 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cowessess-graves-unmarked-residential-school-marieval-1.6077797
		


I expect we will see a summer full of these types of announcements.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> ... I have nothing against statues honouring commanders, units, or soldiers of losing sides as long as they fought honourably and ethically.
> 
> A statue of a slave-owner whipping one of his victims, however, would be completely different, as would a statue of a war criminal ...


Good distinction.

The trouble comes when people start measuring the honour and ethics of individuals and the causes they backed, which brings up the "can we judge by today's standards or do we look for an absolute?"


----------



## Remius (24 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Good distinction.
> 
> The trouble comes when people start measuring the honour and ethics of individuals and the causes they backed, which brings up the "can we judge by today's standards or do we look for an absolute?"


I think that the Jim Crow era can easily be judged by our standards. By the early 1800s slavery was not seen in a good light by most of the world.  By 1865 it was stopped by force in the US.   50 years after that, pro slavery segregationists were still at it by erecting specific statues as symbols of OPPRESSION, not as a way of honouring war heroes.  

It is telling that a few key Confederate Generals do not have statues erected in public spaces by the Jim Crow era folks.  Longstreet is a prime example.  The man was a rabid anti slavery activist after the war.  He’s arguably one of the better generals the confederates had.  But he barely has any monuments anywhere to his names.  Certainly not in the 31 states that raised those statues.  (Only 11 states formed the confederacy yet 31 states have had statues erected mostly during Jim Crow times).  

So while some people will use the excuse that “we can’t judge by today’s standards”.   To an extent.  But even using the standards of the day we can certainly judge.   Should we judge a civil war general that made a difficult choice back in the day?  Maybe not.  But we can can certainly judge people who 50 years later used that general as a symbol of oppression.  That’s what we are talking about.   And we can certainly judge people today on how they can reconcile with the warts of the past.  

I shudder to think that a hundred years from now some forum will be arguing that we can’t judge the nazi regime by the standards of that time.


----------



## YZT580 (24 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I think that the Jim Crow era can easily be judged by our standards. By the early 1800s slavery was not seen in a good light by most of the world.  By 1865 it was stopped by force in the US.   50 years after that, pro slavery segregationists were still at it by erecting specific statues as symbols of OPPRESSION, not as a way of honouring war heroes.
> 
> It is telling that a few key Confederate Generals do not have statues erected in public spaces by the Jim Crow era folks.  Longstreet is a prime example.  The man was a rabid anti slavery activist after the war.  He’s arguably one of the better generals the confederates had.  But he barely has any monuments anywhere to his names.  Certainly not in the 31 states that raised those statues.  (Only 11 states formed the confederacy yet 31 states have had statues erected mostly during Jim Crow times).
> 
> ...


But first of all you must establish the norm before you start to judge whether people were cruel, abusive or whatever and this is lacking in most of these cases.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> .... It is telling that a few key Confederate Generals do not have statues erected in public spaces by the Jim Crow era folks.  Longstreet is a prime example.  The man was a rabid anti slavery activist after the war.  He’s arguably one of the better generals the confederates had.  But he barely has any monuments anywhere to his names.  Certainly not in the 31 states that raised those statues.  (Only 11 states formed the confederacy yet 31 states have had statues erected mostly during Jim Crow times) ...


Good point -- just like in certain regimes around the world, some "famous folks" make it into the Statue Hall of Fame, and some not so much.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2021)

The horror continues. As this goes on, and it will as other graves are uncovered, this will take the form of a 'decade of darkness' for Canada in many ways:
​Sask. First Nation announces hundreds of unmarked graves found at former residential school site​
The Cowessess First Nation says it has discovered hundreds of unmarked graves at the site of the former Marieval Indian Residential School in Saskatchewan. 

A news release Wednesday from Cowessess and the Federation of Sovereign Indigenous First Nations (FSIN), which represents Saskatchewan's First Nations, did not give a specific number but said it will be the most found to date in Canada.

Cowessess Chief Cadmus Delorme and FSIN Chief Bobby Cameron are scheduled to hold a news conference Thursday morning to provide more details of the findings.

The Marieval Indian Residential School operated from 1899 to 1997 in the area where Cowessess is now located, about 140 kilometres east of Regina.

The First Nation took over the school's cemetery from the Catholic Church in the 1970s.

Earlier this month Cowessess started using ground-penetrating radar to locate unmarked graves. 




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cowessess-graves-unmarked-residential-school-marieval-1.6077797


----------



## Quirky (24 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cowessess-graves-unmarked-residential-school-marieval-1.6077797
> 
> 
> 
> I expect we will see a summer full of these types of announcements.



Hmmm how convenient they ‘just’ discovered this. Prepare for more reparations in the form of burned churches.


----------



## Remius (24 Jun 2021)

Grave sites have always been suspected.   And likely some people always knew where they were.  But we now have the tech to actually confirm it.


----------



## YZT580 (24 Jun 2021)

It was a marked cemetery not a dump site.  For whatever reason the church removed the tombstones in the 60's but if you look at the photos the flag markers are more or less in neat rows.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> Hmmm how convenient they ‘just’ discovered this. Prepare for more reparations in the form of burned churches.


With the price of lumber, selling the wood seems like it would be more economical.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2021)

Look out for those spent casings, they're hot....


Bennett issues public apology after Jody Wilson-Raybould accuses her of sending 'racist' private message​​Bennett suggested Wilson-Raybould's recent Indigenous activism was ploy to secure MP pension​
Former minister of justice and attorney general of Canada Jody Wilson-Raybould and then minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs Carolyn Bennett. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

The federal cabinet minister responsible for Crown-Indigenous relations apologized publicly to an Indigenous MP today after suggesting Jody Wilson-Raybould's concern over residential schools and Indigenous rights was really a ploy to secure a generous MP pension.

"Earlier I offered my apologies directly to the MP for Vancouver-Granville. I let interpersonal dynamics get the better of me and sent an insensitive and inappropriate comment, which I deeply regret and shouldn't have done," Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations Carolyn Bennett said in a social media post.

Former justice minister and attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould, the Independent MP for Vancouver Granville, famously resigned from the Liberal cabinet and was later removed from the party by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau over the SNC-Lavalin affair.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/bennett-jody-wilson-raybould-racist-1.6078596?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_284994


----------



## Quirky (24 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> With the price of lumber, selling the wood seems like it would be more economical.



Tearing down Catholic churches to reclaim and reuse the framing? Brilliant.


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Jun 2021)

Requires judicious use of dynamite.  (Church, Blasted, currently residing in OK Falls.)


----------



## Loachman (24 Jun 2021)

As I understand it, both Churches were on reserve land.

Who, then would form their congregations?

City-dwelling white people?

Who would get married in them?

Who would be baptized in them?

Whose funerals would be conducted in them?

What communities' functions would be held in them?

Who would benefit from charities supported and conducted by them?

Who would their soup kitchens feed?

Who most suffers from there loss?

Who is least likely to have torched them?

Who is most likely to have torched them?


----------



## Loachman (24 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I shudder to think that a hundred years from now some forum will be arguing that we can’t judge the nazi regime by the standards of that time.



"The standards of that time" did not include mass genocide or forced horrific "medical" experiments.

Some things are just wrong.

Abusing and dehumanizing people is one of those things.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> Who is most likely to have torched them?



First Nations angry at the church for residential schools.
Far-left white knights who are angry at the church 
Far-right who want to implicate the First Nations.
Far-left who want to implicate the far right
Liberal Party of Canada who wanted a little extra support pushing bill C-36 through.

I'll take door #5


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2021)

10% never get the word....


Priest under fire after sermon on the 'good done' by Catholic Church on residential schools​Clips of last Sunday's controversial sermon widely criticized on social media​

A Mississauga, Ont., priest is under fire after a sermon referencing the "good done" by the Roman Catholic Church in residential schools, saying some might go so far as to even thank it.

During his sermon at the Merciful Redeemer Parish last Sunday, Monsignor Owen Keenan referenced the Kamloops, B.C., residential school where the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc First Nation reported it had discovered the preliminary remains of more than 200 children in unmarked graves in May.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mississauga-pastor-catholic-church-residential-schools-1.6077248


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> 10% never get the word....
> 
> 
> Priest under fire after sermon on the 'good done' by Catholic Church on residential schools​Clips of last Sunday's controversial sermon widely criticized on social media​
> ...


Its a bit tone deaf isn't it? Or at least I see it that way.

On the other hand the grovelers and apologists grate my nerves too.


----------



## Kilted (25 Jun 2021)

The Catholic Church seems to be standing out as the number one bad guy in the matter.  The Presbyterian, Anglican, and United Churches all apologized in the early 90's and seem to have avoided most of the recent backlash.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> The Catholic Church seems to be standing out as the number one bad guy in the matter.  The Presbyterian, Anglican, and United Churches all apologized in the early 90's and seem to have avoided most of the recent backlash.


The Catholic church is an easy target. Its huge and wealthy. PLUS priests who...violate their vows to their god are numerous.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> The Catholic Church seems to be standing out as the number one bad guy in the matter.  The Presbyterian, Anglican, and United Churches all apologized in the early 90's and seem to have avoided most of the recent backlash.



I know it's Wikipedia, but this seems a good summary of where things stand right now regarding the churches. It seems that the RC church is the only one who hasn't come right out and said 'sorry':

Canadian Indian residential school system​
On May 29, 2017, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked the current Pope Francis for a public apology to all survivors of the residential school system, rather than the expression of sorrow issued in 2009.[115][116][117] The request aligned with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's call for "a formal apology issued by the Pope to the survivors of the residential school system for the spiritual, cultural, emotional, physical and sexual abuse of Canada's First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples".[118] Trudeau invited the Pope to issue the apology in Canada. Although no commitment for such an apology followed the meeting, he noted that the Pope pointed to a lifelong commitment of supporting marginalized people and an interest in working collaboratively with Trudeau and Canadian bishops to establish a way forward.[115]









						Canadian Indian residential school system - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Jun 2021)

PM Trudeau says Crown-Indigenous minister's text to Wilson-Raybould 'wrong' but defends her work​Link


> OTTAWA --    Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said a recent text from the Crown-Indigenous relations minister to Independent MP Jody Wilson-Raybould was “wrong” -- but he expressed confidence in Carolyn Bennett’s ability to remain in her position.
> 
> Addressing reporters on Friday, Trudeau said he was pleased to see Bennett apologize to her former colleague, that he knows “her heart” and recognizes the efforts she puts into the file.


----------



## Remius (25 Jun 2021)

She should step aside.  Her credibility with anything to do with reconciliation is shot.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> Who is least likely to have torched them?
> 
> Who is most likely to have torched them?


I don't agree with all this publication shares, but there's more than just a kernel of truth here about the Big Church-Indigenous spiritualism divide in some places. More grist for the mill ....


----------



## Loachman (25 Jun 2021)

I don't agree with a lot of what I see in the various sources that I trawl, either regularly or sporadically, but there are worthy articles, of varying frequency, in all of them.

And that includes articles with which I disagree, because they make me think and re-evaluate.

No segment of any society anywhere is a solid monolith. There will always be different views.

This was a good one.

And I see more that I intend to read as well.

Thanks.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> ... No segment of any society anywhere is a solid monolith. There will always be different views ...


A variation on this that I tell people:  nothing has _everything_, but everything has _something_.


Loachman said:


> I don't agree with a lot of what I see in the various sources that I trawl, either regularly or sporadically, but there are worthy articles, of varying frequency, in all of them.
> 
> And that includes articles with which I disagree, because they make me think and re-evaluate ....


100%


----------



## Remius (26 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Its a bit tone deaf isn't it? Or at least I see it that way.
> 
> On the other hand the grovelers and apologists grate my nerves too.


Seems that priest has resigned



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-area-priest-resigns-after-backlash-from-sermon-on-good-done-in-residential-schools-1.6081404


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> Seems that priest has resigned
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-area-priest-resigns-after-backlash-from-sermon-on-good-done-in-residential-schools-1.6081404


That’s probably a good thing.
Just a thought here but some people are going to make a ton of money sorting this out.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Jun 2021)

And again ....


> Two more Catholic churches on Indigenous land in B.C.’s Interior burned to the ground early Saturday morning.
> 
> The latest were located on reserves in the Similkameen Valley, and come just days after two Catholic churches burned down on Indigenous land in the southern Okanagan.
> 
> ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> And again ....



And another one....

Another church on B.C. First Nations land targeted by arson: Chief​








						Another church on B.C. First Nations land targeted by arson: Chief  | Globalnews.ca
					

"That church was built by our ancestors in the late 1800s by the hands of our elders at the time with such a great sense of pride," Gitwangak elected Chief Sandra Larin said.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Kilted (27 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> And another one....
> 
> Another church on B.C. First Nations land targeted by arson: Chief​
> 
> ...


It's concerning that it was an Anglican Church. I thought that it might have been related to the Pope's lack of apology. Of course, they may be targeting churches indiscriminately, which will be concerning if this gets more out of hand. I should not that one burnt Church is out of hand.


----------



## brihard (27 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> It's concerning that it was an Anglican Church. I thought that it might have been related to the Pope's lack of apology. Of course, they may be targeting churches indiscriminately, which will be concerning if this gets more out of hand. I should not that one burnt Church is out of hand.


 Could be a copycat. The other four were all Catholic, and were destroyed.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> It's concerning that it was an Anglican Church. I thought that it might have been related to the Pope's lack of apology. Of course, they may be targeting churches indiscriminately, which will be concerning if this gets more out of hand. I should not that one burnt Church is out of hand.


The Anglicans ran schools as well


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Jun 2021)

Hardly matters.  It's a form of collective punishment.


----------



## brihard (28 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hardly matters.  It's a form of collective punishment.


Or one person’s outlet for pent up rage.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The Anglicans ran schools as well


But they apologized in 1993 - I know, not enough for some, but at least there's another template out there for other organizations.

Edited to add:  Just spotted this - MSM maybe not getting _every_ detail right notwithstanding, an interesting approach taken to getting churches to cough up money for reconciliation back in the mid-teens...


> The failure of the Catholic Church's fundraising efforts for aboriginal healing and reconciliation means that other churches involved in the notorious residential schools have been let off the hook for more than $3-million in contributions.
> 
> The Catholic fundraising program collected just $3.7-million toward its $25-million goal. This reduced the totals required from the Anglican, United and Presbyterian churches, because each had signed a deal with the federal government that linked their contributions to aboriginal healing to those of the Catholics.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kilted (28 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Hardly matters.  It's a form of collective punishment.


That's not the prerogative of a private individual(s).  It's still a criminal act and should be viewed as such regardless of the circumstances.


----------



## Remius (28 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> That's not the prerogative of a private individual(s).  It's still a criminal act and should be viewed as such regardless of the circumstances.


And I am sure it will be viewed as a criminal act once they conclude that fact.   Last I read, the authorities are treating these cases as suspicious.  Once they have all their evidence I am sure they will conduct whatever criminal investigation is required.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Jun 2021)

structure fires happen naturally, accidentally, or deliberately.  I am sure the police are working with the fire investigators as we speak.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Jun 2021)

Just the usual seasonal church fires due to lightning strikes and careless campers.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2021)

Speaking to my friend still working the regulatory field, this is rippling into the regulatory world by impacting consulting, coupled with UNDRIP The combined impact may have a rippling effect for years to come and impact on Canada's GDP.


----------



## suffolkowner (28 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Speaking to my friend still working the regulatory field, this is rippling into the regulatory world by impacting consulting, coupled with UNDRIP The combined impact may have a rippling effect for years to come and impact on Canada's GDP.


Yeah before Covid, the rail blockades were starting to cripple this country. It would be best if we as a country/society/government got ahead of this and in my mind bit the bullet


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2021)

Problem is that Ottawa does not understand consultation and wants a one size fit all process, but each province is different and each band needs a different approach. My old Department does not do a good job in staffing positions in the regulatory consulting unit and it leads to burn out of the few people there.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Problem is that Ottawa does not understand consultation and wants a one size fit all process, but each province is different and each band needs a different approach ...


Top-down federalism right there - and not just with this set of issues.  Well summed up.


Colin Parkinson said:


> ... coupled with UNDRIP ...


If only someone could have warned the government ....


----------



## brihard (28 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Top-down federalism right there - and not just with this set of issues.  Well summed up.
> 
> If only someone could have warned the government ....


Tricky, given that, constitutionally, indigenous affairs are strictly federal. It makes the overlap with provincial heads of power (eg, natural resources) trickier. Top-down federalism on indigenous issues would be hard to slide out from under in the best of circumstances.


----------



## quadrapiper (28 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Tricky, given that, constitutionally, indigenous affairs are strictly federal. It makes the overlap with provincial heads of power (eg, natural resources) trickier. Top-down federalism on indigenous issues would be hard to slide out from under in the best of circumstances.


Especially adding in the state-to-state nature of at least some of the treaties and other relationships.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Speaking to my friend still working the regulatory field, this is rippling into the regulatory world by impacting consulting, coupled with UNDRIP The combined impact may have a rippling effect for years to come and impact on Canada's GDP.



We really have no idea how to solve this problem, realistically, and continue to throw money at it in the usual fashion e.g.,

Canada Supports Increased Indigenous Participation in the Natural Resources Economy​
The meaningful participation of Indigenous Peoples in oil and gas projects provides important economic opportunities for their communities.

Canada's Minister of Natural Resources, the Honourable Seamus O'Regan Jr., today announced $2.6 million in funding for the First Nations Major Projects Coalition, as well as $1 million in funding for the First Nations Climate Initiative. Both of these initiatives will increase Indigenous participation in the natural resources economy by developing collaborative relationships between industry and government, increasing certainty around First Nations participation in major project development and advancing meaningful engagement.

There is no relationship more important to the Government of Canada than the one with Indigenous Peoples. Canada is ensuring Indigenous groups have access to the resources they need to support them as equal partners in natural resource projects.



			https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/canada-supports-increased-indigenous-participation-in-the-natural-resources-economy-845460987.html


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Jun 2021)

> There is no relationship more important to the Government of Canada than the one with Indigenous Peoples.



Good to know where everyone stands.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> Tricky, given that, constitutionally, indigenous affairs are strictly federal. It makes the overlap with provincial heads of power (eg, natural resources) trickier. Top-down federalism on indigenous issues would be hard to slide out from under in the best of circumstances.


Constitutionally speaking, that's true, but if Indigenous reserve members are also considered citizens of each province***, there's a certain level of responsibility there to serve provincial citizens, too.  There's approximately a range of responses from "happy to offer help & support with the local government's consent" all the way to "reserve land = fed land = zero provincial responsibility - talk to Ottawa", with various positions in between.

** *I add a tiny caveat here because in the range of Indigenous folks I know, there are very few who live off reserve who feel the provincial government is not "their" government because it was the federal Crown who signed the Treaties - not many, but still more than zero.


----------



## Remius (29 Jun 2021)

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup/how-are-you-marking-canada-day-what-does-canada-mean-to-you-1.6081664/it-s-better-to-build-indigenous-mla-makes-case-against-cancelling-canada-day-1.6082520
		


This guy brings up a good perspective and a good argument.  That's the sort of thing and ideas that should be capitalised on.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup/how-are-you-marking-canada-day-what-does-canada-mean-to-you-1.6081664/it-s-better-to-build-indigenous-mla-makes-case-against-cancelling-canada-day-1.6082520
> 
> 
> 
> This guy brings up a good perspective and a good argument.  That's the sort of thing and ideas that should be capitalised on.


It would be super interesting if he were to throw his name in the hat for leader of the BC Liberals….


----------



## Remius (29 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> It would be super interesting if he were to throw his name in the hat for leader of the BC Liberals….


I’ve never heard of him until now.  Is he someone that’s well known there?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (29 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I’ve never heard of him until now.  Is he someone that’s well known there?


He has been slowly building a name for himself. I think he is actually the real deal and if took the leadership of the BC Liberals, he could conceivably run the table on both the NDP and the Greens.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> https://www.cbc.ca/radio/checkup/how-are-you-marking-canada-day-what-does-canada-mean-to-you-1.6081664/it-s-better-to-build-indigenous-mla-makes-case-against-cancelling-canada-day-1.6082520
> 
> 
> 
> This guy brings up a good perspective and a good argument.  That's the sort of thing and ideas that should be capitalised on.


A voice of reason and sense. He'll be railroaded by the others who feel he's a threat. Sorry about the dim view but I have zero faith in our system where good people are "witch hunted" and burnt at the stake (figuratively) to satisfy the ego of the fair haired boy.


----------



## CBH99 (29 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> A voice of reason and sense. He'll be railroaded by the others who feel he's a threat. Sorry about the dim view but I have zero faith in our system where good people are "witch hunted" and burnt at the stake (figuratively) to satisfy the ego of the fair haired boy.


I think the appetite for common sense & reason is hungry enough that views like his will resonate with most.

However, I have no doubt the media will find a few of their ideal morons to share their opinion, and somehow trick us into thinking it’s ‘news’.


----------



## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> I’ve never heard of him until now.  Is he someone that’s well known there?


 
Nope. He's invisible right now.


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Jun 2021)

Didn't take The Beaverton very long_: _*"Catholic church asked to keep in mind the good arson has done"*


----------



## SeaKingTacco (30 Jun 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Didn't take The Beaverton very long_: _*"Catholic church asked to keep in mind the good arson has done"*


So, if one was to replace “Church” with ”Mosque” in that article, how well would that play? How okay have people been with churches being burnt down in the southern US?

Sure, the Catholic Church as an institution, is a big fat target right now, but if this behaviour is normalized, where does it end?

Arson is wrong. Period.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> So, if one was to replace “Church” with ”Mosque” in that article, how well would that play? How okay have people been with churches being burnt down in the southern US?
> 
> Sure, the Catholic Church as an institution, is a big fat target right now, but if this behaviour is normalized, where does it end?
> 
> Arson is wrong. Period.


Amen  brother - yes I am being facetious. 

Arson is wrong and I've heard very little about said arsons and I suspect we will not hear much.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> So, if one was to replace “Church” with ”Mosque” in that article, how well would that play? How okay have people been with churches being burnt down in the southern US?
> 
> Sure, the Catholic Church as an institution, is a big fat target right now, but if this behaviour is normalized, where does it end?
> 
> Arson is wrong. Period.


Sure, arson is wrong, but it's satirizing the proposition that when condemning residential schools, we should think of all the good things that they did, which is BS. If the residential schools were run by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or whatever and they had similarly acted oblivious to the damage it's caused I don't think people would feel too sorry if a few of their mosques or temples burned down either. But they weren't involved, so that's a bit of irrelevant whataboutism to deflect from the long running institutional failing of the Catholic Church. They've found over a 1000 graves now but I'm sure there are thousands more tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground.

This is the same organization that has yet to apologize or pay the fairly paltry $25M in damages they agreed to to compensate victims. Sure, it wasn't these individual churches but the anger against the organization didn't come out of nowhere. They are the biggest land owner in the world, have assets worth billions, and a fairly lucrative bank.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/critics-blast-catholic-church-1.6086030

Similarly, they are still protecting child molesters from prosecution. Must have missed the part of the bible were murder, violent sexual and physical abuse of children was totally cool once someone served their contrition and didn't need reported to legal authorities. The organization has yet to make any real public contrition or make real changes to bring any of these criminals to justice.

They've f*d around for a few millennia and are starting to find out. Probably lots of relevant bible quotes along the lines of 'reaping what you sow', and also 'protecting the children' that are worth pondering, and they lost any claim of being viable moral authorities long ago.

Plenty of practicing Catholics that do a lot of good in their communities, and really live the basic tenets of the Golden Rule, but doesn't change the fact that the institution is completely rotten. Plus, fun story, if you read the bible, Jesus was preaching against exactly the kind of golden temples with idols that is exactly what a lot of the big Cathedrals are, so it strayed from it's roots about 1700 years ago, which is around when Constantine decided it was easier to win the church over via bribery of the priesthood than fight the zealots.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (30 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> So, if one was to replace “Church” with ”Mosque” in that article, how well would that play? How okay have people been with churches being burnt down in the southern US?
> 
> Sure, the Catholic Church as an institution, is a big fat target right now, but if this behaviour is normalized, where does it end?
> 
> Arson is wrong. Period.



The disclaimer from The Beaverton


> _The Beaverton_ is a news *satire* and *parody* publication. All articles contained within this website and on its social media accounts, however similar to real events, are *fictitious*. When public figures or actual businesses are mentioned by name, the corresponding story *details are invented*. In all other cases, any resemblance to actual persons, businesses or events is entirely coincidental.



So when is satire appropriate on this site, either member generated or quoted and linked?

The Beaverton has fallen down on the job.  Were they not aware that religious building arsonists are entitled to equal representation under News Media Council guidelines?  Or are the arsonists to blame for not targeting non-Christian places of worship enough?  We have to go back to 2015 for a mosque arson piece from The Beaverton.

Am I being an arsehole?  Definitely and deliberately.  But on a few recent occasions there have been links/quotes from satire sites that have targeted political figures and (unless one actually searched and discovered that it was satire) could easily have been taken at face value as the true words of an unliked political figure and no effort was made to correct any errors or to draw attention to "satire".  Now, I will agree that arson is wrong.  Having been raised in a Newfoundland Irish Catholic tradition, it is only natural that I lack any belief in the Church's teaching or have any respect for the institution.  But it would be an unusual event for me to cheer the conflagration of a Catholic owned building . . . the last time was December 1969 and it was a school, not a church.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2021)

182 more....

182 unmarked graves discovered near residential school in B.C.'s Interior, First Nation says​​Ground-penetrating radar used to search near St. Eugene's Mission School, says Lower Kootenay Band​
A First Nation in B.C.'s South Interior says 182 unmarked gravesites have been discovered near the location of a former residential school.

The community of ʔaq'am, one of four bands in the Ktunaxa Nation and located near the city of Cranbrook, B.C., used ground-penetrating radar to search a site close to the former St. Eugene's Mission School, the Lower Kootenay Band announced Wednesday. 

According to the band, the findings indicated the graves were shallow, about a metre deep. 

"You can never fully prepare for something like this," said Chief Jason Louie of the Lower Kootenay Band, which is a member of the Ktunaxa Nation. 

The finding adds to the growing tally of unmarked burial sites discovered near residential schools across Canada in the past month, including 215 in Kamloops and 751 in Saskatchewan.

St. Eugene's Mission School was operated by the Catholic Church from 1912 until the early 1970s. The building has since been converted into a golf resort and casino owned by the Ktunaxa Nation.  

The Lower Kootenay Band says up to 100 of its members were forced to attend the school. 

"It is believed that the remains of these 182 souls are from the member Bands of the Ktunaxa Nation, neighbouring First Nations communities and the community of ʔaq'am," read a media release from the band.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-remains-residential-school-interior-1.6085990


----------



## Weinie (30 Jun 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Sure, arson is wrong, but it's satirizing the proposition that when condemning residential schools, we should think of all the good things that they did, which is BS. If the residential schools were run by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or whatever and they had similarly acted oblivious to the damage it's caused I don't think people would feel too sorry if a few of their mosques or temples burned down either. But they weren't involved, so that's a bit of irrelevant whataboutism to deflect from the long running institutional failing of the Catholic Church. They've found over a 1000 graves now but I'm sure there are *thousands more tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground.*
> 
> This is the same organization that has yet to apologize or pay the fairly paltry $25M in damages they agreed to to compensate victims. Sure, it wasn't these individual churches but the anger against the organization didn't come out of nowhere. They are the biggest land owner in the world, have assets worth billions, and a fairly lucrative bank.
> 
> ...


Ok. the rhetoric that has developed around this issue is becoming absurd. You state that "I'm sure there are *thousands more tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground.'*

There are millions of tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground across North America and Europe and Asia and Africa.  That was reality in the 19th and early 20th century. Disease was the number 1-5 killers of people in that period. Disassociate reality at that time, and political thinking now, and then post.


----------



## Mick (30 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Ok. the rhetoric that has developed around this issue is becoming absurd. You state that "I'm sure there are *thousands more tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground.'*
> 
> There are millions of tiny broken skeletons buried in holes in the ground across North America and Europe and Africa.  That was reality in the 19th and early 20th century. Disease was the number 1-5 killers of people in that period. Disassociate reality at that time, and political thinking now, and then post.


Are you referring to unmarked graves?  Or graveyards?  

Did the Canadian government or Catholic Church bury non-Indigenous bodies in unmarked graves?

Should we assume that all schoolyards from, say, before 1950 have bodies buried around them?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Jun 2021)

I was musing about this story and it occurred to me that it's another prime example at how incompetent this particular Federal government is. It is very likely that the funding for the radar survey's came out of government money dedicated for that purpose and that the government had a fair idea of what they are likley to find. Instead of getting out in front of the story and announcing they were assisting bands in finding the victims of residential schools and preparing the media ground for this, they blissfully whistled past the graveyard and now are stumbling to catch up to the story. My guess is that this will go on with more "discoveries" for about two years. Had they gotten out front of the story they could have also said how they help the bands deal with the remains. 
I also bet they didn't give a heads up to the provincial government that they were doing this, so they have to catch up as well.


----------



## Weinie (30 Jun 2021)

Mick said:


> Are you referring to unmarked graves?  Or graveyards?
> 
> Did the Canadian government or Catholic Church bury non-Indigenous bodies in unmarked graves?
> Should we assume that all schoolyards from, say, before 1950 have bodies buried around them?


I'm referring to why people died.

Did everyone get buried in a marked grave in the 19th century? Do those markers still exist?

Why would you assume that?


----------



## Mick (30 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> I'm referring to why people died.
> 
> Did everyone get buried in a marked grave in the 19th century? Do those markers still exist?
> 
> Why would you assume that?


Yes, people die.  No, not all graves are marked.

We don't know why or how these children died, or where they were buried (until now), and their relatives didn't know either.

The horrors of the residential school system are well-known and acknowledged by the government.  These children were taken from their families and were supposed be cared for.  I'd argue that includes marking a grave and keeping a record, if they die while in that care.

So perhaps this is why the rhetoric is different.


----------



## Weinie (30 Jun 2021)

Mick said:


> Yes, people die.  No, not all graves are marked.
> 
> We don't know why or how these children died, or where they were buried (until now), and their relatives didn't know either.
> 
> ...


Perhaps when looked at through the lens of 21st century sensibilities, 

I am not concluding whether it was wrong or right, I am simply saying that to apply contemporary thought processes to 19th century decisions is wrong,


----------



## Mick (30 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Perhaps when looked at through the lens of 21st century sensibilities,
> 
> I am not concluding whether it was wrong or right, I am simply saying that to apply contemporary thought processes to 19th century decisions is wrong,


Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald.  Still, I understand the anger.

And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.


----------



## Weinie (30 Jun 2021)

Mick said:


> Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald.  *Still, I understand the anger.*
> 
> And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.


Yeah, I too understand the anger, and the the hurt inflicted.


----------



## Kilted (30 Jun 2021)

Mick said:


> Ah, I understand your point, and I've had similar thoughts around John A Macdonald.  Still, I understand the anger.
> 
> And, we have yet to determine just how far back these bodies date.


Are we going to at all?  How many of these graves are they actually planning to dig up?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Jun 2021)

Likely very few, I suspect that the areas will be consecrated, bought by the Feds and turned into reserve/special status lands and markers and memorials made, all funded by the Feds which in this case I think is appropriate.


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2021)

A good step in moving forward would likely be to compel any of the religious institutions involved to product any documents or records still in their possession that can shed any light on any of the deaths, burials, etc. There should be hiding hiding of records allowed on this. Legislate as necessary.


----------



## Quirky (30 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> A good step in moving forward would likely be to compel any of the religious institutions involved to product any documents or records still in their possession that can shed any light on any of the deaths, burials, etc. There should be hiding hiding of records allowed on this.



You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.


----------



## Mick (30 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Are we going to at all?  How many of these graves are they actually planning to dig up?


No idea.  But I suppose it could potentially provide closure to families, in some way, if identification was possible.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.


Find remaining relatives/families to apologize and possibly some closure.  It wouldn’t be a waste either of time or resources. 

Look at the reverence a nation gives to one, unnamed human from an unmarked grave away from home…let’s at least be equally mindful of hundreds/thousands of the nation’s children…


----------



## brihard (30 Jun 2021)

Quirky said:


> You get the death records from decades ago. Now what.


You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died. Carrying it beyond that, there may be particular institutions that were worse than others, and where viable grounds for criminal investigation may exist. You need to build the fact set before deciding what to do with it.

If the Fort Frances Foreskin Fusiliers could be expected to rip their BOR apart looking for Somalia documents, I think we can expect the churches to cough up fulsome disclosure on everything they had to do with a far darker chapter in our history.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2021)

brihard said:


> You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died. Carrying it beyond that, there may be particular institutions that were worse than others, and where *viable grounds for criminal investigation may exist.* You need to build the fact set before deciding what to do with it.
> 
> If the Fort Frances Foreskin Fusiliers could be expected to rip their BOR apart looking for Somalia documents, I think we can expect the churches to cough up fulsome disclosure on everything they had to do with a far darker chapter in our history.



My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.


Hopefully we don’t get only a vapid “They’re asking more than we can give!” from the PM.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> The disclaimer from The Beaverton
> 
> 
> So when is satire appropriate on this site, either member generated or quoted and linked?
> ...


Yes, I am well aware the Beaverton is a satire site.

I am commenting on the chatter class quietly cheering on church arsonists “because the Catholic Church is a bunch of assholes”. Even the local band councils affected are decrying and condemning arson.

When 9-11 happened, western governments everywhere made a special point of telling citizens not to blame all muslims and every single incidence of mosque vandalism was loudly decried by every elected official from dogcatcher to head of state.

Do people even realize that these small band churches getting burned aren’t owned by Vatican? They were built, paid for and maintained by the band members themselves, including the ones today who no longer have use of these buildings. So who is suffering as a result of these fires? The Vatican? Think again.

If these local parishes want to disband their churches in protest of the larger Catholic (or Anglican) church, let them make that decision. They don’t need others burning them down for them.

Oh, in case anyone thinks that I am defending Residential Schools, I am not nor ever will. I just do not see how group punishing people today who had nothing to do with events of the past will solve anything or contribute to reconciliation.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> You’re situating the estimate. The churches are quite bureaucratic. There is all likelihood a lot of information archived. At a minimum, it may be possible to offer more fulsome information and closure to the families and descendants of those who died.


Archives are the true history of any institution. Pretty much every organization has archives of some sort, so there is an extremely good chance that there are files somewhere.


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> My guess is that the search for criminality will drive a decade of forensic work and legal action, all paid for by Canada.


Yup, probably. But I think our government owes it to the victims and to the rest of the country- get to the truth, however it should play out. Canadians deserve to have this investigated in as fulsome a manner as it can be, so that hopefully actual reconciliation can be pursued and this ugly crap consigned to the history books.


----------



## GAP (1 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Yup, probably. But I think our government owes it to the victims and to the rest of the country- get to the truth, however it should play out. Canadians deserve to have this investigated in as fulsome a manner as it can be, so that hopefully actual reconciliation can be pursued and this ugly crap consigned to the history books.


There was TB, and a host of other diseases that affected the children that they had not been exposed to the before. The federal government refused to pay to have the bodies returned to the tribe, they told the schools to just bury them and inform the parents


----------



## brihard (1 Jul 2021)

GAP said:


> There was TB, and a host of other diseases that affected the children that they had not been exposed to the before. The federal government refused to pay to have the bodies returned to the tribe, they told the schools to just bury them and inform the parents


Yes, I’m aware. There were also children murdered by school staff, with matters buried by said staff and by police. This is well documented in some instances. If, now that bodies are being counted, more investigation is called for, then do it.


----------



## GAP (1 Jul 2021)

Granted


----------



## Furniture (1 Jul 2021)

Maybe I missed it, but where is the PM's message decrying the destruction of churches?

If it were synagogues, mosques, temples, or any other religious group being targeted, we'd have seen multiple federal government ministers telling us to not judge all (insert X) by the actions of those in the past. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but to me it looks like the government is not saying anything, so the Catholic church can bear the brunt of the anger. 

The graves need to be found, and properly marked. Anyone from the system alive today needs to be brought to justice if they committed criminal acts in the past. Anyone caught committing crimes today, because of crimes in the past also needs to be brought to justice.


----------



## Pelorus (1 Jul 2021)

Furniture said:


> Maybe I missed it, but where is the PM's message decrying the destruction of churches?
> 
> If it were synagogues, mosques, temples, or any other religious group being targeted, we'd have seen multiple federal government ministers telling us to not judge all (insert X) by the actions of those in the past. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but to me it looks like the government is not saying anything, so the Catholic church can bear the brunt of the anger.
> 
> The graves need to be found, and properly marked. Anyone from the system alive today needs to be brought to justice if they committed criminal acts in the past. Anyone caught committing crimes today, because of crimes in the past also needs to be brought to justice.











						Burning churches is 'unacceptable' way to respond to unmarked Indigenous graves: Trudeau
					

This morning, a historic Catholic church in Alberta was destroyed by fire and a Catholic church at a First Nation in Nova Scotia was damaged by flames




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jul 2021)

Furniture said:


> If it were synagogues, mosques, temples, or any other religious group being targeted,



If this was any religious place other than churches burning we would also be calling them hate crimes of epidemic proportions.


----------



## Quirky (1 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> so that hopefully actual reconciliation can be pursued and this ugly crap consigned to the history books.



No one knows what actual reconciliation means, not even the FN. Has there ever been an interaction between Canada and FN in general where compensation of some type for some reason hasn’t been the primary topic of conversation? I see it as a difference of opinion, because to me saying “it’s not about money” is a stance that is either naive or intentionally misleading.



SeaKingTacco said:


> I just do not see how group punishing people today who had nothing to do with events of the past will solve anything or contribute to reconciliation.



Welcome to Canada, where you must pay for the sins of your ancestors and you're responsible for the sins of other peoples' ancestors. Even if you immigrated to Canada, or your parents did, you are still responsible. 



brihard said:


> Yes, I’m aware. There were also children murdered by school staff, with matters buried by said staff and by police. This is well documented in some instances. If, now that bodies are being counted, more investigation is called for, then do it.



There is no clear indication which children died from unnatural causes vs natural, figuring out how to even charge a case with almost no evidence and hoping that any of the staff (who would be in their 80’s) might stay alive long enough to see a court room. Seeking justice is going to be a nearly impossible and too costly of a task at this point. Investigating 30+ year old cold cases is about as terrible of a societal return of investment as it gets. Opening up old wounds that were buried for decades is only going enrage more people and more buildings will be burn down. We are on this path now anyway, it's only going to get worse and drive more hatred.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2021)

Quirky said:


> No one knows what actual reconciliation means, not even the FN ...


I only partly agree with you here.  

What I think makes it difficult is that there's such a wide range of ideas re:  what "reconciliation" means, both to individuals and to communities on both sides of the issue.  

Some said "paying them out" would be a good solution, while others thought this same solution was sometimes (often?) better for the lawyers than the recipients.  

Others point to the fact that while this compensates people who've been through the system or affected by the fate of those who've been there, there was still the outstanding question of, "what about those who didn't come back - especially those that nobody was told about?"  (BTW, they've been collecting info on those who nobody knows what happened to on an ongoing basis since 2015).

Some extremes at both ends of the spectrum can sometimes be so shrill as to drown out all the less-extreme options/opinions in between.

Others smarter than me on social media said that this took a long time to happen and understand (with the understanding still unfolding), so it'll take a long time to figure out what reconciliation means and how to "do" it.


----------



## Remius (1 Jul 2021)

There were 93 recommendations and calls to action that came out of the TRC.  Start by actioning those.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> There were 93 recommendations and calls to action that came out of the TRC.  Start by actioning those.


TRC recommendations…Deschamps Report recommendations….clearly the Government would rather depend on sniffly “We must do better” from the PM and his Ministers, than implement concrete remediating actions…


----------



## Remius (1 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> TRC recommendations…Deschamps Report recommendations….clearly the Government would rather depend on sniffly “We must do better” from the PM and his Ministers, than implement concrete remediating actions…


Absolutely.


----------



## Infanteer (1 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> There were 93 recommendations and calls to action that came out of the TRC.  Start by actioning those.


I'm not about cancelling Canada, or self-flagellation for the sins of the father, but having a read of the 93 recommendations doesn't hurt.









						TRC Website - NCTR
					

The TRC website has been archived using the Wayback Machine software. You can view the archived version by clicking here. The Wayback Machine is an archive system for websites. The archived TRC website will work like a normal website, however, it is not being maintained with current information...




					trc.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jul 2021)

> *We call upon the Government of Canada to replace the Oath of Citizenship *with the following:I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that *I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada including Treaties with Indigenous Peoples,* and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.



This one stuck out to me. Seems like this might be a bit of a loaded issue.

Another is the call for access to Aboriginal traditional healing, I believe in hospitals, if someone requests it. 
Our health care system is struggling. Not enough doctors, nurses, PSWs and so on.  Every hospital in Canada offering Aboriginal traditional healing (which in itself is a broad term with many different healing traditions within the different belief systems of 630 nations) seems tricky.

Actioning all of the recommendations in the TRC seems like it would be an astronomical cost.


----------



## Infanteer (1 Jul 2021)

Yes.  I read through them.  Some are already in place.

I have no doubt that all are made with the best intent.  Some I think may be unrealistically unachievable, and I suspect that some of the calls related to funding are simply indicators of larger cracks in social funding across Canada.

Finally, I'm not sure I agree with a few of them, but would have to read more to understand the context.

It's interesting to see the various reports of how we're doing as a country.  Some reports are that the process is stalled, and that we're not doing enough in Canada.  But it appears Canada is trying.



			https://www.afn.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2020_TRC-Report-Card_ENG.pdf
		




			https://yellowheadinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/yi-trc-calls-to-action-update-full-report-2020.pdf


----------



## Kilted (1 Jul 2021)

Quirky said:


> No one knows what actual reconciliation means, not even the FN. Has there ever been an interaction between Canada and FN in general where compensation of some type for some reason hasn’t been the primary topic of conversation? I see it as a difference of opinion, because to me saying “it’s not about money” is a stance that is either naive or intentionally misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't seen any legit claim that any of the children were murdered, besides what some people think.  I believe that there is somewhat of a consensus that most of the children died late 19th/early 20th century.  I suppose it's possible to find someone still living who may have been accused of sexual assault, but unless this is someone new who is coming forward, I can't have seen the Crown not pursuing charges after TRC if a living individual was named if there was any likelihood of a conviction.   Other than that, what would you charge anyone with, corporal punishment in schools was legal back then, it was only actually criminalized in 2004.


----------



## Mick (1 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> I haven't seen any legit claim that any of the children were murdered, besides what some people think.  I believe that there is somewhat of a consensus that most of the children died late 19th/early 20th century.  I suppose it's possible to find someone still living who may have been accused of sexual assault, but unless this is someone new who is coming forward, I can't have seen the Crown not pursuing charges after TRC if a living individual was named if there was any likelihood of a conviction.   Other than that, what would you charge anyone with, corporal punishment in schools was legal back then, it was only actually criminalized in 2004.


Respectfully, I'm not sure how a "consensus that most of the children died late 19th / early 20th century" is possible - these unmarked graves have only recently been discovered.

The fact remains, that while we don't know details about how / when / under what circumstances  these children died, we do know that they were buried in unmarked graves, without record, by organizations that were entrusted with their care. 

Further investigation will provide more information, obviously.


----------



## quadrapiper (1 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Another is the call for access to Aboriginal traditional healing, I believe in hospitals, if someone requests it.
> Our health care system is struggling. Not enough doctors, nurses, PSWs and so on.  Every hospital in Canada offering Aboriginal traditional healing (which in itself is a broad term with many different healing traditions within the different belief systems of 630 nations) seems tricky.


That actually seems reasonably achievable, especially if approached as a "meet halfway" enterprise: establish a position at each hospital responsible for the delivery of local traditional healing and liaison with the nations of out-of-area indigenous. Make filling and managing it the responsibility of the local First Nation. Fund it out of a non-healthcare pot: it's all tax money, but at least make sure this gig doesn't bite into healthcare funding. Ideally, fund it out of a pot managed by the First Nation(s).


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> TRC recommendations…Deschamps Report recommendations….clearly the Government would rather depend on sniffly “We must do better” from the PM and his Ministers, than implement concrete remediating actions…


“We must do better” Costs serious money. Less money for SNC Lavallin, WE charity and others our dear PM loves so much.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2021)

People keep talking about things they don't know.

We don't know whether all the unmarked graves hold children. (That question was raised over the cemetery discovered in SK.)

We don't know during which periods most of those people died, and of what causes.  (It defies imagination to believe that all were natural and none were due to physical abuse, murder, or self-harm; it also defies imagination that every one is a child murdered and buried at midnight in an unmarked grave with no record.)

We don't know how many graves were originally marked.

We don't know what records were kept, or which have been mislaid or destroyed.


----------



## Mick (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> People keep talking about things they don't know.
> 
> We don't know whether all the unmarked graves hold children. (That question was raised over the cemetery discovered in SK.)
> 
> ...


Fully agree with this post. 

I think the anger, at least partly, is due to the fact that these questions remain.  The state took custody of these children (it's reasonable to assume that a majority of bodies discovered on school grounds are of school age) and with that came a duty to protect them.  If they died in the state's care, for whatever reason, families deserved (and still deserve) to be informed.

edited for clarity


----------



## MilEME09 (1 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> “We must do better” Costs serious money. Less money for SNC Lavallin, WE charity and others our dear PM loves so much.


Feel good politics wins votes, not concrete action, there was no action with the TRC report, of there wasn't national outrage, this wouldn't be a blip on the government radar. Our whole system is I'm shambles and corrupt


----------



## kratz (1 Jul 2021)

> “We must do better” Costs serious money. Less money for SNC Lavallin, WE charity and others our dear PM loves so much.



His mock political dramatic apologies are a future government's poison pill. Currently, he will continue to fund pet projects and when future governments don't live up to what "He" acknowledged, the political poison will result.


----------



## lenaitch (1 Jul 2021)

*We call upon the Government of Canada to replace the Oath of Citizenship *with the following:I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that *I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada including Treaties with Indigenous Peoples,* and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.

I suppose I need it explained to me how an individual citizen can faithfully observe a treaty between the Crown and a FNT.



Infanteer said:


> Yes.  I read through them.  Some are already in place.
> 
> I have no doubt that all are made with the best intent.  Some I think may be unrealistically unachievable, and I suspect that some of the calls related to funding are simply indicators of larger cracks in social funding across Canada.
> 
> ...



Interesting link with the Yellowhead Institute.  In today's Toronto Star, two executives of the Institute had an opinion piece that included:

" (we are accepting restitution in the form of your cottage or second home on our lands, for instance),"









						Analysis | Do you find these ideas for celebrating Canada Day provocative? Then ask yourself why
					

Get used to the confrontation, because there’s a lot of it if you want justice in this world.




					www.thestar.com
				




I didn't really get the context of that part of the piece, but if their view is individual citizens are expected to personally fund reconciliation costs, they might lose sympathy.



Kilted said:


> I haven't seen any legit claim that any of the children were murdered, besides what some people think.  I believe that there is somewhat of a consensus that most of the children died late 19th/early 20th century.  I suppose it's possible to find someone still living who may have been accused of sexual assault, but unless this is someone new who is coming forward, I can't have seen the Crown not pursuing charges after TRC if a living individual was named if there was any likelihood of a conviction.   Other than that, what would you charge anyone with, corporal punishment in schools was legal back then, it was only actually criminalized in 2004.



Historic criminal charges are processed under the law of the land as it existed at the time.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (1 Jul 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> That actually seems reasonably achievable, especially if approached as a "meet halfway" enterprise: establish a position at each hospital responsible for the delivery of local traditional healing and liaison with the nations of out-of-area indigenous. Make filling and managing it the responsibility of the local First Nation. Fund it out of a non-healthcare pot: it's all tax money, but at least make sure this gig doesn't bite into healthcare funding. Ideally, fund it out of a pot managed by the First Nation(s).


And you may end up with more cases such as this: 



> *Makayla Sault, girl who refused chemo for leukemia, dies*
> 
> Ontario First Nation girl, 11, dies after abandoning chemo for traditional, alternative treatments
> 
> ...



Link


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> This one stuck out to me. Seems like this might be a bit of a loaded issue ...





lenaitch said:


> *We call upon the Government of Canada to replace the Oath of Citizenship *with the following:I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that *I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada including Treaties with Indigenous Peoples,* and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.
> 
> I suppose I need it explained to me how an individual citizen can faithfully observe a treaty between the Crown and a FNT ...


Funny you should mention this - this from 10 days ago, with the final version ....


> "... The new language adds references to the Aboriginal and treaty rights of First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples:
> 
> *“I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada, including the Constitution, which recognizes and affirms the Aboriginal and treaty rights of First Nations, Inuit and Métis peoples, and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen."* ...


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> And you may end up with more cases such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> Link


This disturbs me. In this day and age of modern medicine we will have cases like this and already have - just not well publicized. 

My condolences to the family.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> And you may end up with more cases such as this ...


Tough one to wrestle with - notwithstanding the issue of who decides for kids, can one force Jehovah's Witnesses to take blood transfusions against their will, even if life saving?


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Tough one to wrestle with - notwithstanding the issue of who decides for kids, can one force Jehovah's Witnesses to take blood transfusions against their will, even if life saving?


I think a judge IIRC made that decision many years ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy but it involved a Jehovah`s Witness child whose parents denied a blood transfusion. 

Found the link:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/jehovahs-witness-blood-transfusion-1.4299992


----------



## quadrapiper (1 Jul 2021)

Retired AF Guy said:


> And you may end up with more cases such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> Link


I'm content with making figuring out traditional healers' scope of practice a First Nations problem, bundled with all the other obnoxious, weirdly-shaped, amorphous issues that come with governance, as long as there's an override for minors.

Outside the scope of implementing the recommendations: if traditional healing methods have a physical impact, they should be analysed, defined, and, if providing a positive effect, communicated into the broader healthcare world, and, if not, banned from use in medical settings. If they _don't _have a physical impact_, _then you're looking at some species of religious practice: pragmatically, good morale-boosting patient care, but let's not give it any credence, support, or federal funding. If First Nation X wants a hospital chaplain available, that person can be funded by their faith community and handled however hospitals currently deal with officiants.


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jul 2021)

[





quadrapiper said:


> but let's not give it any credence, support, or federal funding.



Then you'd be saying traditional Aboriginal healing doesn't deserve the same level as respect and importance as colonial settler medicine.
Government would be accused of racism and not implementing the TRC in good faith.


----------



## quadrapiper (1 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> [
> 
> Then you'd be saying traditional Aboriginal healing doesn't deserve the same level as respect and importance as colonial settler medicine.
> Government would be accused of racism and not implementing the TRC in good faith.


Oh well. Religious wibble is religious wibble, and doesn't deserve serious public policy consideration.

Ideally, some of the more _actually _valuable recommendations being actioned would counterbalance any negatives of affronting whatever percentage of the Canadian Indigenous population actually cares about traditional healers.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> Oh well. Religious wibble is religious wibble, and doesn't deserve serious public policy consideration.
> 
> Ideally, some of the more _actually _valuable recommendations being actioned would counterbalance any negatives of affronting* whatever percentage of the Canadian Indigenous population actually cares about traditional healers.*



I think they're smart enough to know that traditional healers aren't going to do much brain surgery. 

It might actually help take pressure off the system if they can deal more proactively - through traditional means - with some lifestyle related health issues that are overwhelming them, like diabetes.


----------



## lenaitch (1 Jul 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Funny you should mention this - this from 10 days ago, with the final version ....



That very slight wording change actually works for me.


----------



## Infanteer (1 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> That very slight wording change actually works for me.


I was originally troubled by making specific reference to specific cultural/ethnic references in what should be a statement representing the mosaic of Canada.

However, further reflection made me think that by swearing allegiance to a Crown and a Constitution, we directly recognize the European socio-political system that was transplanted to create Canada (and our constitutional principle of French and English founding nations).  By adding in the section on Aboriginal and Treaty rights, we formalize recognition that there was another socio-political system and people in Canada that was - quite frankly - run over and nearly obliterated in the process of nation building, but still should be recognized as a founding nation.

This gesture seems to be an "easy win" - an earnest gesture for the Government to say "hey, we're all in the boat together - we see you."


----------



## quadrapiper (2 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I think they're smart enough to know that traditional healers aren't going to do much brain surgery.


I know next to nothing about any of the traditional systems: hope they're more pragmatic than e.g. the JWs.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> Then you'd be saying traditional Aboriginal healing doesn't deserve the same level as respect and importance as colonial settler medicine.



Colonial settler medicine doesn't deserve much respect, assuming you're referring to the era of grandmothers' treatments, snake oils, and quack doctors.  If you mean modern science-based medicine, then, yeah, no-one's traditional healing deserves respect until proven.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

Swearing allegiance to rights and treaties refers to two different things:

1) Aboriginal rights, which is the archaic notion that heredity - the accident of birth - should grant people different treatment before the law.  Can't be squared with equality before the law, unless someone is proposing to overhaul everything so that all residents of a governed locality have the same rights to vote and run for public office.

2) Treaty rights, which are just creations of the transplanted system.

I see no reason for naturalized citizens to be taking oaths from which birth citizens are exempt.  It should be changed to a "statement of ideals" or some other well-sounding fluff.

It's another feel-good move to match promises to implement the UNDRIP in full, which would be a retrograde step in the evolution towards a society in which people are equals.  If it weren't for the amount of long-term damage, I'd enjoy the spectacle of the party that deprecated "two-tier citizenship" doing everything in its power to perpetuate the concept.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (2 Jul 2021)

The sense I get from this swing of the discussion to "indigenous healing practices" may be explained by this quote from a piece published last year in the Canadian Medical Education Journal Creating space for Indigenous healing practices in patient care plans



> The free-text responses also reflect an *incomplete understanding of Indigenous healing practices*. Many respondents stated that they need more information, and many described uncertainty about specific Indigenous healing practices (e.g., ingested/inhaled substances) and potential risks. There was also frequent conflation of Indigenous healing practices with forms of complementary medicine or religions. *This was demonstrated with responses such as: “religious beliefs need to be kept separate from medicine”* (respondent 6), and “_I ask about all therapies the patient is using and specify ‘natural, vitamins, herbal or other_’” (respondent 19).



It certainly described what I had thought was meant by "indigenous healing practices".  It's amazing what a little research produces.  https://www.fnha.ca/what-we-do/traditional-healing


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jul 2021)

Be on the lookout....

UPDATE: VicPD seeks two suspects in toppling of Captain James Cook statue in downtown Victoria​ 
Monument replaced with red dresses

The Victoria Police Department is looking for information on two suspects in regards to the destruction of the Captain James Cook Statue in downtown Victoria on Canada Day.
At approximately 8:30 p.m. on Thursday, a large group toppled the statue before tossing it in the harbour.









						UPDATE: VicPD seeks two suspects in toppling of Captain James Cook statue in downtown Victoria - Saanich News
					

Monument replaced with red dresses




					www.saanichnews.com


----------



## Navy_Pete (2 Jul 2021)

Makes sense to me; no reason why you can't do both. It's not like modern medicine is really great at dealing with chronic conditions, and for things like joint pain etc some of the salves I've tried worked as well or better than modern equivalents. Just because it's old knowledge doesn't mean we've figured out something better, and we still can't duplicate some things that used to be common practice (like the mix of hydraulic cement used by the Romans for bridge supports that are still standing).

And a lot of the latest mental health treatments are just repackaged versions of what people did for centuries.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Be on the lookout....
> 
> UPDATE: VicPD seeks two suspects in toppling of Captain James Cook statue in downtown Victoria​
> Monument replaced with red dresses
> ...


If Victoria can do this so can Winnipeg. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I posted something on FB this morning alluding to that and it turned in to a shit show. I deleted it as it was counter productive


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jul 2021)

And.... tit for tat begins:

Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely in retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue​








						Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue: RCMP
					

The burning of a totem pole, seemingly in retaliation for the dismantling of a statue of Capt. James Cook on Canada Day in Victoria, has been denounced as an act of racism and an example of settler cruelty by the W̱ SÁNEĆ leadership council.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

I wonder what the RCMP's first clue was.


----------



## brihard (2 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> If Victoria can do this so can Winnipeg. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I posted something on FB this morning alluding to that and it turned in to a shit show. I deleted it as it was counter productive


Winnipeg is investigating.

Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> And.... tit for tat begins:
> 
> Totem pole set alight on Malahat likely in retaliation for tearing down of Cook statue​
> 
> ...


I was just thinking that Totem poles celebrate a society based on slavery.....


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

I wonder that anyone can believe that cultural insults can only go in one direction.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Swearing allegiance to rights and treaties refers to two different things:
> 
> 1) Aboriginal rights, which is the archaic notion that heredity - the accident of birth - should grant people different treatment before the law.



I was following a debate somewhere about the Wet'suwet'en pipeline saga. It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it.  Someone was saying the supreme court of Canada recognized the authority of the hereditary chiefs over elected chiefs (or words to that effect). If accurate that's one of the downsides of the traditional practices of aboriginals.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it.



Yes.  I don't mind a few trappings of power attached to hereditary positions (eg. our remnants of monarchy), but the federal government has a duty to protect people from that kind of happy horseshit and insist on elected government.  Who chose hereditary leaders?  When did they make that choice?  Does anyone get to make it again, at regular intervals, in case people change their minds?


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Winnipeg is investigating.
> 
> Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.


Thank you. That's good info to know.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> I wonder that anyone can believe that cultural insults can only go in one direction.


You should listen to a group of (incarcerated) indigenous people speak about black people. You think the good old boys from the deep south are bad...


----------



## lenaitch (2 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I was following a debate somewhere about the Wet'suwet'en pipeline saga. It looked like a number of the people and elected chiefs supported the pipeline. The hereditary chiefs were against it.  Someone was saying the supreme court of Canada recognized the authority of the hereditary chiefs over elected chiefs (or words to that effect). If accurate that's one of the downsides of the traditional practices of aboriginals.


It would seem internecine politics is endemic in all systems:





__





						Female hereditary chiefs challenge Wet’suwet’en MOU
					

Female hereditary chiefs launch human rights complaints over their exclusion




					biv.com
				




*****

The way the weather is in BC right now, setting any kind of fire - for any reason - seems to suggest any number of criminal charges in addition to arson.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jul 2021)

Just to add to the complexity, Blueberry was where my colleague and I where accused of being the spawn of Satan because we were doing regulatory consulting for Site C.   





__





						Court drops bombshell on B.C. natural gas industry
					

BC infringed treaty, must stop approving industrial development in natural gas heartland




					biv.com


----------



## Eaglelord17 (3 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Winnipeg is investigating.
> 
> Realize that in any of these big protests, there are a lot of cameras and binoculars about. Best practice, if people aren’t already getting hurt, is to avoid inflaming the situation through arrests right now when they can instead follow later. It’s not worth sending a crowd control arrest team into an angry mob over a statue- I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue. Much safer to identify people now and effect arrests later, if It’s purely a matter of property damage or minor stupidity.



Sometimes Law and Order requires a strong hand and a immediate stopping of these actions. If this was Russia the cops would have marched in there and started hitting everyone who was in the way with batons and I guarantee you they would have stopped their illegal actions pretty quickly. Not saying that should be our immediate go to, but if someone is breaking the law and they are seen getting away with it, it causes others to become emboldened to do it elsewhere. The reason so many statues are being torn down is because there is no seen consequences to not tearing them down. Sometimes it isn't about the money, rather the principal.


----------



## RangerRay (3 Jul 2021)

While my brain understands why the police would watch events unfold then follow up afterwards (less violence is a plus) I must admit I felt physically ill watching them topple the statues then just walk away.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Just to add to the complexity, Blueberry was where my colleague and I where accused of being the spawn of Satan because we were doing regulatory consulting for Site C.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But did anyone up there accuse you of being a ‘colonial facilitator’?

I thought not


----------



## brihard (3 Jul 2021)

What degree of bodily harm is


Eaglelord17 said:


> Sometimes Law and Order requires a strong hand and a immediate stopping of these actions. If this was Russia the cops would have marched in there and started hitting everyone who was in the way with batons and I guarantee you they would have stopped their illegal actions pretty quickly. Not saying that should be our immediate go to, but if someone is breaking the law and they are seen getting away with it, it causes others to become emboldened to do it elsewhere. The reason so many statues are being torn down is because there is no seen consequences to not tearing them down. Sometimes it isn't about the money, rather the principal.


Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with _our_ values? Doubtful.

What degree of bodily harm is a statue worth? I’m on a public order unit. How far would you have us go in the moment to stop people pulling a statue down and effect immediate arrest? How much injury are you willing to risk to me or the men and women to my right and left over it? Just how heavy-handed would you have us be? Personally I see a huge different between something like pulling down a statue that’s easily remade, versus a riot that’s destroying businesses and institutions, setting fires, etc.

Right now we have a societal tension that’s causing a lot of pressure. Do we want to make a pressure cooker out of it, or instead let that pressure bleed off? Given the underlying issues in all of this, I’m not sure sending a bunch of (mostly white) police in to suppress dissent, protests, and relatively minor vandalism by force necessarily serves the larger strategic objectives of our government. But that’s just me.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> What degree of bodily harm is
> 
> Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with _our_ values? Doubtful.
> 
> ...



Amen.

The best part about people dragging down a statue is that you get to arrest dirt bags for vandalism. Then replace/ fix the statue.

FWIW, I was never happy with the Capt. Cook statue in Victoria. It's made of fibreglass FFS!

Maybe they'll reaplace it with a proper, indestructible bronze monolith. With an anti-tampering switch connected to a couple of Claymore mines


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Jul 2021)

With a voice recorder saying "Eff you scumbag, my ghost will revenge me!"


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Jul 2021)

With credit where due to _Red Dawn _...


Colin Parkinson said:


> With a voice recorder saying "Eff you scumbag, my ghost will revenge me!"


----------



## Eaglelord17 (5 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> What degree of bodily harm is
> 
> Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with _our_ values? Doubtful.
> 
> ...


I ask that the police enforce the laws, especially if they see them being broken in front of their faces. People are starting to believe the law doesn't apply to them just because their personal social issue is popular at the moment. They are literally being taught that as long as they are 'peaceful' they can act as they please. As a society we need to make sure they understand they break the law, there is immediate consequences. We have rule of law for a reason, go to your local officials if you want something changed, but we need to set a hardline that breaking the law to effect your personal social goals will not be accepted. 

As to how much force the police need to use, that is all dependent on how the criminals react. If they are peaceful and accept being arrested freely then there is no issue. If they decide to resist and fight back, then as much force as is required to subdue them needs to be used. 

Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession. The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> What degree of bodily harm is
> 
> Frankly I feel pride and relief that our policing profession doesn’t behave the way seen in places like Russia. would the Russians go in and crack skulls to save a statue? Sure. Is that in line with _our_ values? Doubtful.
> 
> ...



I guess the question is when do the police start swinging sticks and restoring order ?  Honest question, you're the SME; I count stuff for a living. 

To me the totem pole burning is the proverbial canary in the coal mine, if the government cant/wont protect order others will.


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Jul 2021)

I have a question for y'all:

During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.

Don't even get me started on the "We are all immigrants" train of thought. 

Am I being a bit too sensitive? Food for thought.


----------



## Quirky (5 Jul 2021)

No it’s bullshit that someone is more Canadian because of the colour of their skin. This is the new Canada though where only whites are racists.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession.


I guess sometimes citizens take protection of statues into their own hands. Police try to prevent both sides from killing each other.






These statues coming down, one way or the other,  remind me of the 12-foot bronze Texas Ranger "One riot, one Ranger" statue.

It has been removed and put into indefinite storage.

Even the 8-foot bronze Kate Smith "God Bless America" statue is not immune.  It too has been removed and placed in storage.

Should some statues be removed? If so, which ones?

How can those left standing be protected?

At what cost to taxpayers?



brihard said:


> I guarantee you’ll see way more tax dollars spent on a couple injured police than on cleaning and repairing a statue.



If statues can't be protected, what to do with them? Pay for indefinite storage?


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I have a question for y'all:
> 
> During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.
> 
> ...



Although a widely used term in the media, and amongst certain elements of academia and activism, this is not a thing in mainstream business or government beyond the usual 'flavour of the month' lip service.

Everyone knows this is an important subject but in terms of changing the way the world fundamentally works these days, it really isn't.

What it is good for, apparently, is getting attention


----------



## rmc_wannabe (5 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I have a question for y'all:
> 
> During the Colton Bouchie murder trial the term "settler law" was brought up. To me this indicates that some view us Caucasians as "settlers" when we were in fact born here. The term "colonizers" has also come up.
> 
> ...



(long post ahead...bear with me)

As a First Gen Canadian, I find the whole "you're all immigrants settlers/colonizers!" trope a bit much.

My parents came here as children in the 1950s and were told they weren't welcome here by many of the same folks that facilitated these atrocities in the residential schools. My father had the shit beat out of him by a nun in grade school for not speaking English as well as being left-handed. He was later targeted by a predatory priest in high school, but was lucky enough to project enough confidence to have this creep think twice about it. My mother was give similar treatment, but was "tolerated" because she was a Scot. Their parents were poor, blue collar, and faced discrimination for not being "Canadian" enough.

My family cannot trace roots in Canada any further than that. They weren't at the reigns of power in 1876 any more than they were in 1956. We have an axe to grind with the Catholic Church too for the abuses my parents suffered, even if there aren't any mass graves outside their schools.

And of course both the church and the Canadian Government are relishing this finger pointing. JT is quick to give platitudes akin to...."We're all colonizers, and we all have a responsibility in righting the injustices and atrocities that have been committed against our Indigenous peoples." I will concede that this is true in the sense that systemic racism is just that, systemic; and plays towards a greater intolerance of different peoples. However, I don't hold the purse strings to fund things like clean drinking water, improving conditions on reservations, providing support and funding to locating these mass graves, etc.

My forbearers and I didn't set policy for the GoC and I cannot provide tangible solutions to promote reconciliation and healing, as I don't have a tax revenue in the Trillions or my own gendarme. Its important to note that the TRC's Calls to Action are not addressed to the individual Canadian, but to our governments and institutions. I plan on doing my part with my vote, but that is about as far as I can go with setting government policy.

Much like our government's policies on Climate Action force me to pay a tax every month and using a reusable coffee mug has done fuck all in preventing a literal fire in the ocean, my solidarity and support is all I can give in this situation. Demonizing me based on my ancestry (which, talk about colonization to a Highland Scot or a Sicilian...) only serves to alienate me from your cause. My neighbour is Huron and has more hatred towards the Iroquois than they do to your average Canadian.

While we fight and name call and tear down statues and totem poles... the Catholic Church and the Government Of Canada are sneaking out the side door and absolving themselves of their role in this genocide. That role is much bigger than yours or mine.

just my $0.02


----------



## YZT580 (5 Jul 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Top-down federalism right there - and not just with this set of issues.  Well summed up.
> 
> If only someone could have warned the government ....


----------



## YZT580 (5 Jul 2021)

very simple:  for whatever reason, someone, somewhere is masterminding a whole lot of manure agitating and the 3rd estate has jumped right in to ensure that the advertising revenue keeps on coming


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2021)

rmc_wannabe said:


> While we fight and name call and tear down statues and totem poles... the Catholic Church and the Government Of Canada are sneaking out the side door and absolving themselves of their role in this genocide. That role is much bigger than yours or mine.


Yup, especially the Government that has been in power for, you know…100% of the time since the TRC released its report in December 2015.

While the PM doesn’t seem to receive much challenge reporting from the MSM (and some credit counts intent for future action as a ‘complete’ [eg. CBC ‘Beyond 94’ rates Item 43 - Adopt UNDRIP, complete] which we won’t know is truly completed for several years yet), Team Orange points out his and his government’s lack of substantive action:

REALITY CHECK: Justin Trudeau Failing the TRC


> In the wake of the discovery of 215 children found buried at the Kamloops Indian Residential School, Canadians want to know what the government is doing.
> 
> Well, the reality is the Prime Minister isn’t doing very much:
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> ... REALITY CHECK: Justin Trudeau Failing the TRC


Good reminder -- now let's see what the other parties offer up as an alternative this fall.

Here's what Google pops up searching for "Indigenous" on Team Orange's and Team Blue's main web pages as of this post - search for "reconciliation" results also here & here.


----------



## MARS (5 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh wait...you're serious.

You must not remember the Caledonia land dispute in Ontario from 15 years ago.









						Grand River land dispute - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




The events that are happening now pale in comparison to what happened back then and the associated degree of restrain the OPP showed - stemming from provincial government edicts at the time.

I don't think we anywhere close to Caledonia-levels of violence and disruption yet... and I wouldn't expect anything to happen until we are, and maybe not even then....

Government strategic objectives may not matter to you, but they do matter.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

> The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.



I think the days of sending in the 7th Cavalry are long gone.


----------



## lenaitch (5 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I ask that the police enforce the laws, especially if they see them being broken in front of their faces. People are starting to believe the law doesn't apply to them just because their personal social issue is popular at the moment. They are literally being taught that as long as they are 'peaceful' they can act as they please. As a society we need to make sure they understand they break the law, there is immediate consequences. We have rule of law for a reason, go to your local officials if you want something changed, but we need to set a hardline that breaking the law to effect your personal social goals will not be accepted.
> 
> As to how much force the police need to use, that is all dependent on how the criminals react. If they are peaceful and accept being arrested freely then there is no issue. If they decide to resist and fight back, then as much force as is required to subdue them needs to be used.
> 
> Risk of injury is part of the job you signed up for, enforcing the laws are literally the core component of your profession. The Governments strategic objectives mean nothing to me, the law is being broken, uphold it.



That type of logic would expect a high speed pursuit through a playground because somebody blew a stop sign.

The precursor to many of these vandalism events - a public protest - is a legal activity.  To wade into that only invites trouble and escalation.  The role of civilian law enforcement is to keep the peace and enforce the law.  It makes little sense to flagrantly ignore or enflame the degradation of one while trying to do the other.  Arrests can and do come later but they don't always make the media.

It becomes a matter of risk and reward.  The police don't operate in a world of acceptable casualty numbers, on either side, certainly not to prevent or arrest for a property crime.  If you look closely at many of these protests, there are elderly and children in the lines.  Whether that is simply a community coming together or a deliberate tactic I'll leave to individual interpretation.

Images of crowd or dissent control in places like Russia, China, or even the US south in the 60s, might look decisive, but there are broader elements of those societies that I don't think we want to look fondly upon.


MARS said:


> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh wait...you're serious.
> 
> You must not remember the Caledonia land dispute in Ontario from 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


And Caledonia was informed by Ipperwash, where a protestor was shot a killed.  I maintain that was caused by a command failure, but I'll leave it at that, but they will do all in their power to avoid another Ipperwash.  I didn't particularly agree with all of actions taken by the police at Caledonia, but at the end of the day, nobody died or was seriously injured.  Was anything ultimately solved?  I doubt it, but that's not law enforcement's role.

It's one thing for the police to go in and bust heads for something that is clearly illegal like, say, a brawl between rival bikes gangs in a bar. It's completely another  when there is a claim of right, one that the government might ultimately agree with.  First Nation civil disobedience is ultimately unwinnable from a law enforcement perspective; damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The broader strategic issue cannot be ignored.  A protest can spawn a blockade an entire country away.  And, although nobody likes to talk about it, the issue of firepower is always in the background.  There is no absolute clarity whether the protestors had access to firearms at Ipperwash, and the police didn't have access to the scene (the park) until about a week later.  I believe it was a similar situation at Oka.  I was privy to a surveillance video of an Oka 'sympathy' blockage that clearly, to my untrained ear, included the sound of heavy machine gun fire.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jul 2021)

As long as the rules for civil disobedience apply to all, equally, there is no reason to get too worked up about trivial property crimes, no matter how symbolically insulting.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> As long as the rules for civil disobedience apply to all, equally, there is no reason to get too worked up about trivial property crimes, no matter how symbolically insulting.


RCMP criticized for inaction after mob violently attacks Mi’kmaq lobster facilities



> Nova Scotia RCMP are under fire for failing to stop an angry mob from attacking two rural storage facilities holding Mi'kmaq lobster, throwing rocks, setting a van ablaze and restraining fishermen in one of the most violent confrontations yet in a dispute over the fishery.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jul 2021)

This is why I liked working with the Haisla

_Chief Councillor Crystal Smith offers this statement in support of finding healthy ways forward:

We have all been responding in our own ways to the growing number of finds at the sites of residential schools across Canada.

It has lead to a lot of heartache, shock, and anger, which are entirely valid feelings over these discoveries.

Today, I merely ask our Haisla members to reach out to find healthy outlets for these feelings. Our Health Centre staff can provide resources to help you along, and there are toll-free phone lines as well.

Finding healthy ways to address these traumas will be the best path to healing.

We should ensure that the damage to property that has been reported in other communities and in other Nations does not happen here. Intentionally lighting buildings on fire, including churches, puts the community, our members, and our First Responders at risk. I trust our members in Kitamaat Village will continue to choose positive actions over destruction_.

Also they constantly look for future opportunities for their people.









						Cedar LNG – A generational opportunity for the Haisla First Nation | BOE Report
					

It is no secret that the road to FID for an LNG project or any Energy project in Canada is a lengthy one. However, several positive developments bode well for the Cedar LNG project backed by the Haisla Nation. Cedar LNG received approval for Cedar LNG 1-located on Haisla Nation-owned land in...




					boereport.com


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> REALITY CHECK: Justin Trudeau Failing the TRC


Another perspective, this from the group representing elected Chiefs across Canada - full progress report from last year attached ...


----------



## Infanteer (5 Jul 2021)

That was the one I attached to my earlier post, and prompted my statement that the country is at least trying.  Having over half the CfA's with either significant or moderate progress is better than nothing.


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Jul 2021)

Catholic Church raised nearly $300M for buildings since promising residential school survivors $25M in 2005​CBC compiled Catholic projects announced since promising 'best efforts' to survivors, paying them under $4M​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...aising-residential-school-survivors-1.6090650

Sigh...maybe time to start taxing religious institutions.


----------



## Remius (6 Jul 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Catholic Church raised nearly $300M for buildings since promising residential school survivors $25M in 2005​CBC compiled Catholic projects announced since promising 'best efforts' to survivors, paying them under $4M​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...aising-residential-school-survivors-1.6090650
> 
> Sigh...maybe time to start taxing religious institutions.


Absolutely start tax them.  And then redirect those taxes to the TRC initiatives.


----------



## YZT580 (6 Jul 2021)

don't like the word tax.  It implies that the money is just the cost of doing business.  Could they not demand the balance of the 25 million for breach of promise and then tack on a penalty of say another 25 million?  Oh and add 8% interest per year on the entire sum.  After all, that is what the tax department will charge you for trying to default on taxes.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Jul 2021)

Wasn't the deal a "best effort" promise?

Sure, tax the churches.  But remember that they get to deduct expenses from revenue to determine taxable income.  Then watch their accountants do what every businessman knows how to do  - minimize taxable income.  Then reap very little money, and a great deal of animosity.  There's a deal I'm sure politicians are eager to make.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Jul 2021)

And much of that money raised by local parishes who might be made up of immigrants like Filipinos who weren't exactly involved...


----------



## Kilted (6 Jul 2021)

I think that it's important to remember that a very large percentage of Canadian Christians are not Catholic and have no connection to the Catholic Church, in many cases many denominations left the Catholic Church because they felt that many things the Vatican was doing was wrong. Perhaps we will see a few converts from this. If you start taxing every church based on the actions of the Catholic Church, that's for one thing discrimination.  Many smaller churches would be forced to close if they were taxed, because many are barely holding on.  They don't have the riches of the Vatican.


----------



## Kilted (6 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> And much of that money raised by local parishes who might be made up of immigrants like Filipinos who weren't exactly involved...


To argue the other side here: it shouldn't matter. The Catholic Church is one international organization, it's not like it has an independent denomination in every country that has ultimate authority, they all answer to the Vatican.


----------



## suffolkowner (6 Jul 2021)

how about starting with property taxes?


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Jul 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Catholic Church raised nearly $300M for buildings since promising residential school survivors $25M in 2005​CBC compiled Catholic projects announced since promising 'best efforts' to survivors, paying them under $4M​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...aising-residential-school-survivors-1.6090650
> 
> Sigh...maybe time to start taxing religious institutions.


CBC seems to be picking up the baton the _Globe & Mail_'s first ran with in 2016.


Kilted said:


> ... The Catholic Church is one international organization, it's not like it has an independent denomination in every country that has ultimate authority, they all answer to the Vatican.


Yeah, on that, Canadian Bishop Central says it's as decentralized as they want it to be .... 


> ...The Catholic community in Canada has a decentralized structure.  Each Diocesan Bishop is autonomous in his diocese and, although relating to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, is not accountable to it.  Approximately 16 out of 70 Catholic dioceses in Canada were associated with the former Indian Residential Schools, in addition to about three dozen Catholic religious communities.  Each diocese and religious community is corporately and legally responsible for its own actions. The Catholic Church as a whole in Canada was not associated with the Residential Schools, nor was the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops ...


Nothing from The Vatican on that - although Vatican Central did apologize to other groups elsewhere for stuff Catholic church organizations in other countries did to people.


----------



## Kilted (7 Jul 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Yeah, on that, Canadian Bishop Central says it's as decentralized as they want it to be ....


And Commanding Officers from Alberta dictate Canadian Forces policy.


----------



## quadrapiper (7 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think that it's important to remember that a very large percentage of Canadian Christians are not Catholic and have no connection to the Catholic Church, in many cases many denominations left the Catholic Church because they felt that many things the Vatican was doing was wrong. Perhaps we will see a few converts from this. If you start taxing every church based on the actions of the Catholic Church, that's for one thing discrimination.  Many smaller churches would be forced to close if they were taxed, because many are barely holding on.  They don't have the riches of the Vatican.


So delete religion from the tax code entirely. If you do good works (for example, maintaining a historical local building and grounds) that qualify you for charitable status? Excellent! You're a charity! Otherwise, there's non-profit or for-profit options.


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Jul 2021)

We knew about it all along, of course:

LILLEY: Unmarked graves were documented years ago but most of us looked away​It was all there in the 2015 report from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

It was all there, ready for anyone to read in the 2015 report from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. There is an entire 273-page volume devoted just to this issue titled, “Canada’s Residential Schools: Missing Children and Unmarked Burials.”

 The language in the report is matter of fact, the content is heartbreaking.

A total of 3,201 children documented to have died, or thought to have died, at Canada’s residential schools. Thought to have died is included because records remain incomplete — some are thought to have died after running away, others were presumed dead when they did not return.

As for the cemeteries, they are there in the report.

These were not hidden cemeteries as some have wrongfully thought or implied, they were part of the whole horrid system. The schools had cemeteries because the government refused to pay to transport the bodies of students who died back to their parents.

LILLEY: Unmarked graves were documented years ago but most of us looked away


----------



## Good2Golf (9 Jul 2021)

Most indeed looked away, including the elected offspring of _He Who Said He’d Keep Them In The Ghetto As Long As They Like_. 😔


----------



## suffolkowner (9 Jul 2021)

Well at least they've been trying! I wonder if the courts will revisit this



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/residential-school-financial-settlements-quebec-catholic-church-1.6092215


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Jul 2021)

A lawsuit has been filed. $300 million is the figure quoted.
What is more concerning to me is the tone that our government in Manitoba is using and the response from the FN.


----------



## Loachman (16 Jul 2021)

A week old, but I did not see them posted as I caught up in this thread:









						Rex Murphy: What's not to understand (and abhor) about 'burn it all down'?
					

What responsible organization, what person leading a responsible organization, would think or utter such a thing?




					nationalpost.com
				












						While some cheer on the destruction of churches, First Nations pick up the pieces
					

After a failed arson attack on an on-reserve Anglican church, Gitwangak First Nation said the church had no connection to residential schools. Vandals returned…




					nationalpost.com
				












						Terry Glavin: Canada's early Christian prophets were Indigenous. Now someone's destroying their churches
					

As pyres have been made of sturdy little churches built by First Nations, the sneering of all those white 'allies' is the thing to notice




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Remius (16 Jul 2021)

Loachman said:


> A week old, but I did not see them posted as I caught up in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect this will be the go to thing.  I wouldn’t be surprised if “allies” are the ones doing it to.  You know the type.  Not native but activists that feel they can speak and protest for native communities.  Likely from far away and likely the same types that protest at G7 and G20 summits or chain themselves to trees.   But I am only surmising and throwing my thoughts out.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> I suspect this will be the go to thing.  I wouldn’t be surprised if “allies” are the ones doing it to.  You know the type.  Not native but activists that feel they can speak and protest for native communities.  Likely from far away and likely the same types that protest at G7 and G20 summits or chain themselves to trees.   But I am only surmising and throwing my thoughts out.


Black Bloc?


----------



## Remius (16 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Black Bloc?


Or the same type.


----------



## Quirky (16 Jul 2021)

News coverage over all of this has been reduced substantially even after more discoveries of objects under past schools.


----------



## Remius (16 Jul 2021)

Quirky said:


> News coverage over all of this has been reduced substantially even after more discoveries of objects under past schools.


Objects?

People are far more sympathetic to stories of children dying in government sanctioned religious organizations than they are to arson burning down churches.


----------



## Loachman (16 Jul 2021)

They should also be sympathetic to the indigenous people who rely on the churches that "do-gooders" have been burning down.

We'd be a bunch better off, as a society, if fewer people were offended on behalf of other people, whom they neither know nor know much about, who are not themselves offended.


----------



## Remius (16 Jul 2021)

Loachman said:


> They should also be sympathetic to the indigenous people who rely on the churches that "do-gooders" have been burning down.
> 
> We'd be a bunch better off, as a society, if fewer people were offended on behalf of other people, whom they neither know nor know much about, who are not themselves offended.


But that gets buried in the narrative unfortunately.


----------



## Loachman (16 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> But that gets buried in the narrative unfortunately.


Yup.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Jul 2021)

Yesterday the Minister for Indigenous Affairs (Manitoba) had his first press conference and was interrupted and lectured by  Wab Kinew, the leader of the NDP Opposition here. The Minister came across as tone deaf and Kinew, IMO over stepped his bounds by interrupting and scolding the minister very publicly.

We need less of this "if you're not for us you're agin us" bullshit.

We need more people - the middle ground - to come to an understanding and get on with the job. The holier than thou crowd from both sides should be told "STFU you are not helping".

Its no wonder people - good decent people - do not venture into politics these days.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> But that gets buried in the narrative unfortunately.


…and the churches’ ashes…


----------



## OceanBonfire (16 Jul 2021)

Down South:









						Indigenous children’s remains turned over from Army cemetery at Carlisle Barracks
					

The Carlisle school, founded by an Army officer, took drastic steps to separate Native American students from their culture.




					www.armytimes.com
				












						Indigenous children's remains turned over from Army cemetery
					

CARLISLE, Pa. (AP) — The disinterred remains of nine Native American children  who died more than a century ago while attending a government-run school in Pennsylvania were headed home to Rosebud Sioux tribal lands in South Dakota on Wednesday after a ceremony returning them to relatives.




					apnews.com


----------



## Loachman (19 Jul 2021)

Rupa Subramanya: Church fires show the left's disgusting propensity to turn a blind eye to violence
					

A genuine liberal would speak out against all such cases of egregious violence, no matter the justification or the historical wrongs that prompted them




					nationalpost.com
				












						How Canada forgot about more than 1,308 graves at former residential schools
					

First Nations are having to counter widespread claims that these are mass graves or that they were deliberately hidden




					www.thewhig.com


----------



## Remius (19 Jul 2021)

Loachman said:


> Rupa Subramanya: Church fires show the left's disgusting propensity to turn a blind eye to violence
> 
> 
> A genuine liberal would speak out against all such cases of egregious violence, no matter the justification or the historical wrongs that prompted them
> ...


Both good articles.  The first shows hypocrisy on both sides.  The other is a good example that one side does not have the monopoly of ignoring First Nations when they say something.


----------



## Loachman (19 Jul 2021)

Nothing is ever simple.

There is always much more to a story than is first apparent.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Jul 2021)

Even the Coptics aren't safe!

Fire that destroyed Surrey church deemed suspicious​​Firefighters called to blaze at St. George Coptic Orthodox Church around 3:30 a.m. PT​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/surrey-church-fire-1.6108048?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_292238


----------



## Remius (19 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Even the _*Coptics*_ Copts aren't safe!
> 
> Fire that destroyed Surrey church deemed suspicious​​Firefighters called to blaze at St. George Coptic Orthodox Church around 3:30 a.m. PT​
> 
> ...


Slight correction.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Jul 2021)

Maybe it was Harsha Walia that burned the church down.



			'Burn it all down': Head of B.C. civil liberties group resigns over tweet about church fires


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Jul 2021)

Meanwhile, in Manitoba, the Pallister government is reminded that a closed mouth gathers no feet:

First Nations leaders decry 'racist political propaganda' by Manitoba government, call for resignation​

First Nations representatives harshly called out the Manitoba government on Monday, labelling recent comments by Premier Brian Pallister and cabinet minister Alan Lagimodiere as propaganda and demanding the latter's resignation.

Standing on the front steps of the legislative building, the Summit of Treaty 5 Sovereign Nations (STFSN) blasted the Progressive Conservative government for a "deliberate attempt to distort the history of Indigenous peoples regarding the policy of genocide at residential schools."

In a fiery speech that could be heard far from the Tyndall stone steps, Grand Chief Arlen Dumas of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs shouted his anger with Pallister and Lagimodiere.

"We found 1,505 children murdered in these schools, hidden and buried in the ground, and in the same breath, [you] say 'but residential schools were a good thing. Assimilation was a good thing.' Who can say that in their right mind?" he said.

"Here we are today trying again to have people who are so ill-informed and uninformed and uneducated [and] ignorant, tell my mother that what happened to her in residential school, it was OK."


Dumas spoke of how Indigenous people showed the first European settlers how to travel and survive in a land and climate that could be inhospitable at times.

"Where we treated your ancestors like human beings, your institutions treated us like savages," he yelled.

The comments by Pallister and Lagimodiere suggest nothing is changing, Dumas said.

"I'm tired of talking to Pallister. I give him every opportunity to have meaningful dialogue. We bring forward meaningful solutions to work together, hand in hand, to move forward. But he'd rather talk at me."

During a Canada Day rally in Winnipeg, following the discovery of unmarked graves at former residential schools in Canada, statues of Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth were pulled down on the grounds of the Manitoba Legislature.

Pallister denounced the actions and made comments that suggested the colonization of Canada was done with good intentions.

The people who came to Canada "didn't come here to destroy anything. They came here to build. They came to build better," he said, adding the statues would be repaired and set back up, though the locations might change.

In a news release, the STFSN said the premier's comments are "racist political propaganda distorting and romanticizing colonialism."

"If Pallister wants to rebuild that statue so quickly, a statue that some of my non-First Nations friends in Manitoba didn't even know the significance of, then he may as well be building them on those graves," Dumas said.

Pallister's remarks provoked the resignation of his own Indigenous and northern relations minister, Eileen Clarke, who stepped down from her cabinet position two days later.

In doing so, Clarke said many Manitobans are disappointed with their representatives, and added that she and other cabinet ministers had not been listened to.

She was replaced by Lagimodiere, who, within 10 minutes of his appointment on July 15, told reporters the people who ran Indian residential schools believed "they were doing the right thing."

"In retrospect, it's easy to judge in the past. But at the time, they really thought that they were doing the right thing," he said.

"From my knowledge of it, the residential school system was designed to take Indigenous children and give them the skills and abilities they would need to fit into society as it moved forward." 




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/treaty5-summit-residential-schools-comments-pallister-lagimodiere-1.6108012?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20News%20Top%20Headlines%20%20%E2%80%93%20Evening_1617_292319


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2021)

This won’t help…



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rheal-forest-residential-schools-1.6121886


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> This won’t help…
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rheal-forest-residential-schools-1.6121886


Where is that face palm emoji.

Jesus H Christ is this one stupid priest.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Where is that face palm emoji.
> 
> Jesus H Christ is this one stupid priest.


It’s probably similar to when we have CAF members go on record and say something stupid publicly.   People think they speak for the organisation when In reality they aren’t authorized to.


----------



## mariomike (29 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> People think they speak for the organisation when In reality they aren’t authorized to.


Employees do not speak for their employers. You can answer questions of a general nature, but not make a public statement.

If an employee feels the need to make a public statement,  they can ask their union, if they have one, to make one on their behalf.

That's the way I understood it.


----------



## Kilted (29 Jul 2021)

I suppose that that is comparable to a CAF member coming out and saying that some of the people who made Op Honour complaints, lied to take part in the settlement.


----------



## Remius (29 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> I suppose that that is comparable to a CAF member coming out and saying that some of the people who made Op Honour complaints, lied to take part in the settlement.


I’d go one further and suggest it would be similar to the CO of a unit to come out and say that.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Jul 2021)

Kilted said:


> I suppose that that is comparable to a CAF member coming out and saying that some of the people who made Op Honour complaints, lied to take part in the settlement.


Some CAF members absolutely lied to take part in the settlement. The same way some members absolutely fake injuries to get a 3(b) release.


----------



## Kilted (29 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Some CAF members absolutely lied to take part in the settlement. The same way some members absolutely fake injuries to get a 3(b) release.


I know, but I wouldn't say that to the media or where the media is likely to get ahold of it (I know that this site is somewhere where the media could get ahold of it, however for all they know I may not be a serving member).


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jul 2021)

It's just human nature. The same way some people rip off workers comp. I didn't take the comments from the priest as pointing out the nature of "some people". I get the feeling he's negatively stereotyping with a broad brush and trying to subtly discredit victims. I feel like a number of priests are taking that approach. Which is messed up.


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Jul 2021)

I suspect that a lot of priests who had nothing to do with the residential school system feel they are being smeared with a toxic brush and are hitting back. The issue is always complicated by having humans on both sides of the issue which means you get all types.


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## Quirky (29 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> This won’t help…
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rheal-forest-residential-schools-1.6121886


Maybe the residential school survivors experienced it differently.


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## OceanBonfire (30 Jul 2021)

They have no shame:



> The Roman Catholic Church spent millions of dollars that were supposed to go to residential school survivors on lawyers, administration, a private fundraising company and unapproved loans, according to documents obtained by CBC News.
> 
> The documents include a host of other revelations. They appear to contradict the Catholic Church's public claims about money paid to survivors.





			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/residential-school-survivors-catholic-church-millions-1.6121678


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jul 2021)

You can imagine how much INAC spends on Lawyers and other stuff every year compared to how much goes to the bands


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## brihard (30 Jul 2021)

OceanBonfire said:


> They have no shame:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“Shame” is a tool to retain the Church’s power, not something to be felt by leadership. The Catholic Church at the institutional level is morally bankrupt.


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## Weinie (30 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> “Shame” is a tool to retain the Church’s power, not something to be felt by leadership. The Catholic Church at the institutional level is morally bankrupt.


But fiscally considerate. They are in a crap position, so I suspect their stance is being driven by legal advice . 

.02


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## brihard (30 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> But fiscally considerate. They are in a crap position, so I suspect their stance is being driven by legal advice .
> 
> .02


Undoubtedly


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## daftandbarmy (11 Sep 2021)

I have as much sympathy with this issue as anyone but two stats in one month, two weeks before another long weekend - Thanksgiving -  is an absurd attack on productivity....


Government offices, schools to close for Sept. 30 holiday, but businesses undecided​
Students won’t be in class and federal and some provincial employees will get a day off, but the new Sept. 30 holiday in honour of National Truth and Reconciliation Day won’t be mandatory in all B.C. workplaces.

Sept. 30 has traditionally been known as Orange Shirt Day in remembrance of Indigenous peoples across the country who suffered in residential schools.

The federal government declared through an act of Parliament in June that Sept. 30 would be a paid day off for employees in the federal public service, including staff at CFB Esquimalt, federal office buildings and the post office, while federally regulated business such as banks will be closed.










						Government offices, schools to close for Sept. 30 holiday, but businesses undecided
					

Students won’t be in class and federal and some provincial employees will get a day off, but the new Sept. 30 holiday in honour of National Truth and Reconciliation Day won’t be mandatory in all B.C. workplaces. Sept.




					www.timescolonist.com


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## Jarnhamar (11 Sep 2021)

Canadians should have to complete the DLN *Introduction to Indigenous Cultures* course to receive a stat holiday.


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## brihard (11 Sep 2021)

Ontario's provincial government has already said it won't be a stat for anything provincially regulated.


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## The Bread Guy (11 Sep 2021)

Weinie said:


> ... They are in a crap position, so I suspect their stance is being driven by legal advice ...


Like a lot of mega-institutions.


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## Brad Sallows (11 Sep 2021)

The self-flagellation competition is going to go on for a while.  No point getting worked up over it.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> For the record, here's what Canada's Conference of Catholic Bishops has had to say about who's responsible - highlights mine ....


Bumped with the latest ....


> We, the Catholic Bishops of Canada, gathered in Plenary this week, take this opportunity to affirm to you, the Indigenous Peoples of this land, that we acknowledge the suffering experienced in Canada’s Indian Residential Schools. Many Catholic religious communities and dioceses participated in this system, which led to the suppression of Indigenous languages, culture and spirituality, failing to respect the rich history, traditions and wisdom of Indigenous Peoples. We acknowledge the grave abuses that were committed by some members of our Catholic community; physical, psychological, emotional, spiritual, cultural, and sexual. We also sorrowfully acknowledge the historical and ongoing trauma and the legacy of suffering and challenges faced by Indigenous Peoples that continue to this day.  Along with   those Catholic entities which were directly involved in the operation of the schools and which have already offered their own heartfelt apologies[1], we[2], the Catholic Bishops of Canada, express our profound remorse and apologize unequivocally ... Having heard the requests to engage Pope Francis in this reconciliation process, a delegation of Indigenous survivors, Elders/knowledge keepers, and youth will meet with the Holy Father in Rome in December 2021. Pope Francis will encounter and listen to the Indigenous participants, so as to discern how he can support our common desire to renew relationships and walk together along the path of hope in the coming years ...


Statement of apology also attached in case link doesn't work for you.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Sep 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Statement of apology also attached in case link doesn't work for you.


How long before we see a "well that's not good enough for reconciliation "article do you think?


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## The Bread Guy (25 Sep 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> How long before we see a "well that's not good enough for reconciliation "article do you think?


The initial reaction so far ....

Different groups, different takes
Not enough for some (and it's possible for some, nothing will ever be enough)
Let's see what happens in December with the Pope (link to the Vatican's info-machine on the 20 Dec 2021 meet), with a bit more detail (_"... The Bishops also expressed their appreciation to the Holy Father for his spirit of openness in generously extending an invitation for personal encounter with each of the three distinct group of delegates – First Nations, Métis and Inuit - as well as a final audience with all the delegates together on the last day of the visit ..."_)
One national organization still deciding who's going to meet with the Pope


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## Kilted (26 Sep 2021)

brihard said:


> Ontario's provincial government has already said it won't be a stat for anything provincially regulated.


I think that there is a lot of confusion all over the place about it.  Wes till haven't received word one way or the other if we are parading on that night or not.


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## brihard (26 Sep 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think that there is a lot of confusion all over the place about it.  Wes till haven't received word one way or the other if we are parading on that night or not.


It’s a federal stat holiday and CAF is a federally regulated employer. That should be an obvious “yes” for the stat, same as it would be if parade night fell on Christmas, New Years, or any other stat that’s tied to a calendar date.


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## Kilted (26 Sep 2021)

brihard said:


> It’s a federal stat holiday and CAF is a federally regulated employer. That should be an obvious “yes” for the stat, same as it would be if parade night fell on Christmas, New Years, or any other stat that’s tied to a calendar date.


You would think that, but we have worked holidays before.  One time when Remembrance Day fell on a parade night we were still required (as much as a reservist can be, although good look getting on course/ tasking if you miss something Remembrance Day-related)  to parade after the various parades during the day.  Granted we were in the mess from the very start of the night.


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## Remius (26 Sep 2021)

Kilted said:


> You would think that, but we have worked holidays before.  One time when Remembrance Day fell on a parade night we were still required (as much as a reservist can be, although good look getting on course/ tasking if you miss something Remembrance Day-related)  to parade after the various parades during the day.  Granted we were in the mess from the very start of the night.


That is directly related to said holiday.  Not, show up and go over weapons handling or post ex drills.

Edit: sorry just saw what you actually meant.  That’s weird.  You had a parade night after?


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## brihard (26 Sep 2021)

Remembrance Day isn’t a federal stat.


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## dapaterson (26 Sep 2021)

brihard said:


> Remembrance Day isn’t a federal stat.



Actually, it is.






						Public holidays - Canada.ca
					

Information for individuals and businesses on public holidays.




					www.canada.ca


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## brihard (27 Sep 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Actually, it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, for the federal realm you’re right, my bad. I let myself get confused by several of the provinces not observing it as one.


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## Remius (27 Sep 2021)

brihard said:


> Sorry, for the federal realm you’re right, my bad. I let myself get confused by several of the provinces not observing it as one.


As a Public servant I have it off every year.  As a reservist I am working it every year…it’s easy to confuse it for a stat holiday vs normal day when one works it most of the time.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Sep 2021)

Remius said:


> As a Public servant I have it off every year.  As a reservist I am working it every year…it’s easy to confuse it for a stat holiday vs normal day when one works it most of the time.



Alot of people will be working during this new stat holiday too. And not out of disrespect, I might add!


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## Remius (27 Sep 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Alot of people will be working during this new stat holiday too. And not out of disrespect, I might add!


Wasn’t insinuating that.


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## Brad Sallows (27 Sep 2021)

The confusion over Remembrance Day may be that it is federally (as in, federal employees) observed, but not required for federally-regulated companies.  Some provinces choose to apply it, and some do not.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Oct 2021)

To bad this story didn't break before the election or during it 



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/chretien-residential-schools-abuse-minister-1.6224844
		


_While Jean Chrétien was minister of Indian affairs, his federal department received several reports — including one addressed directly to him — of mistreatment and physical abuse of children at residential schools, government records show.

Chrétien, Canada's prime minister from 1993 to 2003, told a popular Radio-Canada talk show on Sunday that he never heard about abuse at residential schools while he was minister of what was then called the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development from 1968 to 1974.

Jean Chrétien says he never heard about abuse in residential schools while he was minister
A cursory look at the historical record reveals that while Chrétien was minister, his department received at least four reports outlining allegations of abuse and mistreatment of children at St. Anne's Indian Residential School, which operated in the Fort Albany First Nation, along Ontario's James Bay coast.

The department also received reports of abuse from other residential schools during his tenure, including two from one that sat about 130 kilometres north of his hometown of Shawinigan, Que., records show._


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## daftandbarmy (26 Oct 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> To bad this story didn't break before the election or during it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Navy_Pete (26 Oct 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> The confusion over Remembrance Day may be that it is federally (as in, federal employees) observed, but not required for federally-regulated companies.  Some provinces choose to apply it, and some do not.


I'm actually a fan of this model, means the kids are in school and can do the observations there and actually learn something, so probably a good model for the TRC day. Not sure what schools are teaching now, but when I was a kid there was this weird empty potemkin village with a long house and whatnot where we learned about the First Nations like it was a historical thing, as opposed to there being a lot of reservations in the area and active residential schools.

Still blown away the last one close in 1996; the whole system caused generations of trauma.


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## Maxman1 (27 Oct 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> the last one close in 1996



Well, sort of. The last one to be operated, in any capacity, as a school, Marivelle, stopped operating as a residential school in the 70s and became a day school, and was turned over to the band in 1987, who continued using it as a day school until 1996.


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## Maxman1 (27 Oct 2021)

In similar news:
"Where did they go?" No human remains found on Charles Camsell hospital grounds

Nothing has been found after two more days of searching for unmarked graves at the site of a former “Indian hospital” in central Edmonton.

Crews completed the last of 34 excavations on the Charles Camsell Hospital grounds Friday - after ground-penetrating radar pointed to “anomalies” under the soil.

“We’re happy that nothing has been found here to date,” Papaschase Elder Fernie Marty said.

“No bodies, no bones of any kind, no human remains, so that’s a good thing. Now to find where the bodies did go to. Where did they go?”

Marty said he still believes there are unmarked graves somewhere in or around Edmonton.

He bases that off of stories he’s heard about people disappearing and accounts from former staff members he’s spoken to directly about things that happened in the hospital.

“A lot of evil stuff went on here. This place, in my opinion, should have been burned to the ground or blown up,” he said.

“You couldn’t give me a place to live here. I wouldn’t live here. Too much horror went on.”

The hospital building is now being converted to condos, owned by local architect Gene Dub.

Dub paid more than $200,000 for the search.

“I think we owe it to those families to search these grounds,” Dub said. “To find, truthfully whether they’re here.”

“His heart is in a good place,” Marty said of Dub, adding plans to add a commemorative stone to the property were appreciated by him and other Elders.

Starting in the 1930s, 31 hospitals were built in Canada with the goal of treating tuberculosis in Indigenous people - but according to the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue Centre at the University of British Columbia, the hospitals were understaffed and used “experimental treatment” on their patients.

A class-action lawsuit brought forth in 2018 alleges patients suffered sexual and physical abuse, including forced sterilization, at these hospitals.

The Indigenous groups involved in the Camsell search said they will continue to seek answers - and possibly search other sites in the Edmonton area.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Oct 2021)

Interesting take on the half-staff flags from an interesting group ...


> Ray Deer answered the phone on a late October day and heard the news that Bo Curotte, a Vietnam War veteran, had succumbed to cancer. Deer is president of the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 219 in Kahnawake Mohawk territory, and such phone calls are an ever more regular occurrence.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Interesting take on the half-staff flags from an interesting group ...



Thank you for your thoughtful, reasoned leadership Kahnawake elders.

Our other 'leaders' are busy on their reconcili-vacations....


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## Quirky (25 Jul 2022)

With Pope Francis visit and forthcoming apology, we can finally close this dark chapter of the Canadian residential school system and "reconciliation" with the FN.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jul 2022)

Quirky said:


> With Pope Francis visit and forthcoming apology ...


For the record, apology given April, so now it's being "re-news'ed" here








						Pope Francis apologizes to Canada's Indigenous Peoples - Vatican News
					

The Pope on Friday meets with Canadian Indigenous delegations, expressing his profound sorrow and asking for pardon for the suffering inflicted by ...




					www.vaticannews.va
				



Heck, even the Canadian Bishops, who have said in the past that they couldn't _really_ apologize themselves***, liked it





						Canada’s Catholic Bishops Welcome Pope Francis’ Apology to Indigenous Peoples - Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops
					

April 1, 2022 –  Today marks the conclusion of the Indigenous delegation to the Holy See, culminating with an historic apology from Pope Francis for the Catholic Church’s role in Canada’s residential school system. The Holy Father expressed “sorrow and shame” for the abuse and lack of respect...




					www.cccb.ca
				





Quirky said:


> ... we can finally close this dark chapter of the Canadian residential school system and "reconciliation" with the FN.


One hopes, but we'll see.

** *- Linking to the text originally posted to the site, given the link now brings you to the newest version of the organization's postion


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## Quirky (25 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> One hopes, but we'll see.



My post was mostly in jest. There is no end to reconciliation, this is all smoke and mirrors. Nobody wants a one-time payout or apology, they want an endowment.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> For the record, apology given April, so now it's being "re-news'ed" here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, apart from the formal apology, it seems that one of the key issues is that the Pope's is the only church that hasn't coughed up any cash yet. I haven't heard anything about money yet in the recent coverage:


Residential school compensation must be paid before any papal visit, say survivors, advocates​Say​Public costs of previous papal visits have ranged from $50 million to $100 million​
Jason Warick · CBC News · Posted: Nov 05, 2021 2:00 AM CT | Last Updated: November 5, 2021


Demands for Catholic Church to pay residential school settlement before any papal visit​
Residential school survivors and advocates say they want the Catholic Church to pay the remaining amount of how much it owes to survivors under a 2005 settlement deal. It’s estimated at about $60 million, which is also how much a possible visit by the Pope could cost Canada.

The potential $50 million to $100 million cost of a Canadian papal visit isn't far off the amount the Catholic Church still owes residential school survivors, say advocates.

They say that bill — estimated at slightly more than $60 million — must be paid and all documents about the schools disclosed before one dollar is committed to bringing Pope Francis to Canada for an expected apology. One Vatican expert says that's highly unlikely, but survivors say they'll keep pressing.

"That money should go to survivors first. The Vatican is rich. They owe us for what they did," Cote First Nation survivor Madeleine Whitehawk said.
"They have not been honourable. Saying sorry is not enough."



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/residential-school-survivors-compensation-papal-visit-1.6237418


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jul 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> ... the Pope's is the only church that hasn't coughed up any cash yet ...


To be fair, Team Papist did throw _some_ cash into the plate.  They were _supposed to _raise $25M to help support survivors, but, well, uh, here's what they managed to scrape together....


> ... Canada's 12 million Catholics donated less than $4 million of the promised $25 million — roughly 30 cents per person ...


... and let's not forget the "in kind" help Team Papist DID provided, too (highlights mine)...


> ... CBC News has obtained the log detailing the in-kind claims for dozens of Canadian Catholic entities party to the landmark 2005 Indian Residential School Settlement Agreement (IRSSA).  Survivors and advocates interviewed say they're shocked, as many of the listed services are nothing more than attempts to evangelize and convert Indigenous people.  *The list includes bible-study programs, placement of priests and nuns in remote northern communities, services under the frequently used label of "religiosity" and religious-document translation* ...


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To be fair, Team Papist did throw _some_ cash into the plate.  They were _supposed to _raise $25M to help support survivors, but, well, uh, here's what they managed to scrape together....
> 
> ... and let's not forget the "in kind" help Team Papist DID provided, too (highlights mine)...



The Pope be like....


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## CBH99 (26 Jul 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> To be fair, Team Papist did throw _some_ cash into the plate.  They were _supposed to _raise $25M to help support survivors, but, well, uh, here's what they managed to scrape together....
> 
> ... and let's not forget the "in kind" help Team Papist DID provided, too (highlights mine)...


Wow.  

There really is a moral disconnect between the average everyday person, and a large organization that can afford expensive lawyers.  

It’s always hard for me to wrap my head around an organization spending it’s money on legal fees, so it _doesn’t_ have to do the right thing… 

it’s like they are completely blind to how that comes across to people outside their little circle of decision makers.


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## Kilted (26 Jul 2022)

Quirky said:


> With Pope Francis visit and forthcoming apology, we can finally close this dark chapter of the Canadian residential school system and "reconciliation" with the FN.


I'm not an expert on the RC Church, but I was under the impression that the Pope was incapable of apologizing because he was considered to be infallible?  Won't this apology compromise his position?


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## The Bread Guy (26 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> I'm not an expert on the RC Church, but I was under the impression that the Pope was incapable of apologizing because he was considered to be infallible?  Won't this apology compromise his position?


Happened in Ireland in 2018 and (from a different, more conservative Pope) in 2010, and one out to the Pacific nations (from yet another Pope) in 2001, so if infallibility is the issue, Team Vatican seems to be able to be ... selective in what's a "must do" versus a "could do."  Then again, this wouldn't be the only big organization of any kind in the world that does that - same with this ...


CBH99 said:


> ... It’s always hard for me to wrap my head around an organization spending it’s money on legal fees, so it _doesn’t_ have to do the right thing…


In the words of the DM and the Minister in "Yes Minister"


> ...  DM:  ... you might create a dangerous precedent.
> 
> Minister:  You mean that if we do the right thing this time, we might have to do the right thing again next time ...


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## Brad Sallows (26 Jul 2022)

Not sure that apologies for misdeeds of others falls under the doctrine of "papal infallibility".


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## FSTO (26 Jul 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Wow.
> 
> There really is a moral disconnect between the average everyday person, and a large organization that can afford expensive lawyers.
> 
> ...


How many times have a large corp or government entity fight tooth and nail and fatten the bank accounts of legal firms over something they have to know they'll lose eventually. Its actually disgusting.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Jul 2022)

For the record, the statement ....


> *APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS POPE FRANCIS
> to CANADA
> *(24 - 30 JULY 2022)
> 
> ...


Also attached.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2022)

Double shot from The Beaverton  








						Pope takes over empty apology duties from exhausted Trudeau
					

OTTAWA - After numerous empty apologies to Indigenous Peoples backed by little to no substantive action or restitution, Pope Francis arrived in Canada this week to officially take over empty apology duties from an exhausted Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.




					www.thebeaverton.com


----------

