# New Canada-Croatia military partnership



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2012)

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> During his meeting with the Ambassador of Canada to Croatia Edwin Loughlin on February 8, the Croatian Minister Kotromanović said that Croatia and Canada have been working together in the defence field mostly in education, where Canada sponsored specific training for Croatian officers in Canada, but also that there was scope for expansion of defence cooperation between the two countries.
> 
> In his inaugural visit, the Ambassador was accompanied by Defence Attaché of Canada to the Republic of Croatia, Colonel Donald Deene.
> 
> ...


New Europe Online, 12 Feb 12


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## aesop081 (12 Feb 2012)

Interesting.

Its been over 15 years but, that country can still kiss my *** and go to hell.


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## the 48th regulator (12 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> Its been over 15 years but, that country can still kiss my *** and go to hell.



I second that, my brother.

dileas

tess


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## 3VP Highlander (12 Feb 2012)

Same feeling.


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## medicineman (12 Feb 2012)

Imagine how I cringed when the Croat MP's wandered into Camp Julien when were setting it up...no love lost here.  I'd say motion carried.

MM


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## aesop081 (12 Feb 2012)

You know, i was in Italy once and saw Canadian WW2 vets drink, tell stories and have fun with the same Germans who had once tried to kill them. It was an amazing thing.

I'm not ready for anything remotely like that.


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## Jammer (12 Feb 2012)

F*#k those scroat di*ks.


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## medicineman (12 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You know, i was in Italy once and saw Canadian WW2 vets drink, tell stories and have fun with the same Germans who had once tried to kill them. It was an amazing thing.
> 
> I'm not ready for anything remotely like that.



My Grandad was like that - was one of the last guys out of Dunkirk...however, if a Japanese guy showed up, would have been another story, since he spent the rest of the war in India and Burma.

I'm a little bitter and twisted still.

MM


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## OldSolduer (12 Feb 2012)

This is international politics at its finest. 


I'm not ready to take in Croats to train with us......I'm with you guys....


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## the 48th regulator (12 Feb 2012)

Let's not forget the the rest of them  Croat, Serb, Bosnian/Muslim as they were all equally guilty of destroying their country, and our Canadian lives.....I spit on the fact they are so casually accepted.....

dileas

tess


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## TN2IC (13 Feb 2012)

I"ll be honest guys, I wasn't in the former Yugo conflict. But I can understand your feelings towards the Croatians. I seen them over in KAF, wasn't to sure what to think of them. But I keep my eye out, just in case. Very weird working with former Warsaw Pact members in the sandbox. I still remember the Shoot to Kill books. But I have a little story to tell you. 

               One day, when I was a Pte, I was on a VIP detail. Waiting outside by the staff car for some General to show up from his hotel. A taxi cab was parked behind me. And he knew I was in the CF, hints the uniform. I walk by, and he start to talk to me. He told me he was from Egypt. And he serve as a soldier during the Six Day War. Time went by. He move to Canada to start a new life. Everything was fine, until he had a heat attack. He had an urgent open heart surgery. 

             During his recovery, the Doctor came over for a visit at his bedside. He look at the Doctor, and start chating. The doctor told him he is a former IDF soldier. The Egyptian was shocked, and ask why the Doctor didn't let him die on the table. The Doctor said "we were all brothers. That is the past. I hold no grudges against anyone."


Regards,
TN


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## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

TN:  good story, but veeeery different wars

Here in Thunder Bay, there are families from all sides of the former Yugo conflict who don't speak following their "troubles" almost 20 years later - and I think the kids (and maybe grandkids) will carry on the tradition.  

That said, imagine how the troops standing in the middle of this might feel about the Croats.

That said, Tess is also bang on....





			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Let's not forget the the rest of them  Croat, Serb, Bosnian/Muslim as they were all equally guilty of destroying their country, and our Canadian lives.....I spit on the fact they are so casually accepted.....


  to you and all the others who did the job in sometimes pretty sad, ugly situations


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## George Wallace (13 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> - and I think the kids (and maybe grandkids) will carry on the tradition.



That statement is a sad fact, not only with families from the FYR, but other parts of the world as well, and something that I personally am not impressed with........their bringing their hatreds with them to Canada and perpetuating their 'battles' here.


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## Loachman (13 Feb 2012)

TN said:
			
		

> Very weird working with former Warsaw Pact members in the sandbox.



Minor point, but Yugoslavia was not part of the Warsaw Pact. It was a popular vacation spot for CF personnel from Lahr and Baden.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That statement is a sad fact, not only with families from the FYR, but other parts of the world as well, and something that I personally am not impressed with........*their bringing their hatreds with them to Canada* and perpetuating their 'battles' here.


Some of the Croat/Serb families I'm talking about have been in Canada for 2 generations, and it continues....


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## GR66 (13 Feb 2012)

Unfortunately it's sometimes the following generations that are the worst for carrying on the old hatereds.  They are brought up on the stories of how their people were wronged or persecuted without it being tempered by having actually experienced the horror of living through a conflict.


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## medicineman (13 Feb 2012)

TN said:
			
		

> Very weird working with former Warsaw Pact members in the sandbox.



Imagine the "I just saw a four headed alien" look on my face when I wandered into a UN Mil Ob course I was teaching on and all the foreign students were Russian, Ukranian, Czech, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian, Latvian and Estonian...well you get the picture.  Still had that Cold War conditioning going on.

Most of my aversion to the Croat military stems from crap friends of mine went through in Medak in '93 and stuff they did when I was there in '94 that just frankly scared the crap out of me.  I found them unprofessional and almost Ramboesque...not saying that the RSVK Serbs didn't put us through the ringer, because they did,  but I felt a bit safer when doing jobs with them.  Maybe it was the shyte magnet on my forehead, who knows.  Just my perspective/opinion though.

There is a subtle irony to all this - Yugoslav troops used to share the same stomping grounds with Canadian troops while wearing bue helmets and berets in UNEF in Egypt/Siniai during the 50's and 60's.  Who'd have thought...

MM


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## Rifleman62 (13 Feb 2012)

My personal, long standing, definition of the Trudeau multicultural policy: 

1. Come to Canada. Bring all of your hates and prejudices. We will subsidize you big time. 

2. Canada is not a melting pot. Vote Liberal. Liberal is Canadian values.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

GR66 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately it's sometimes the following generations that are the worst for carrying on the old hatereds.  They are brought up on the stories of how their people were wronged or persecuted without it being tempered by having actually experienced the horror of living through a conflict.


One academic I know calls it "the kitchen table hatreds".


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## TN2IC (13 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> TN:  good story, but veeeery different wars
> 
> That said, imagine how the troops standing in the middle of this might feel about the Croats.



              Oh I'm totally understanding the point you made. Not to age myself here. But I was in grade 6-7, when the Medak Pocket happen. I was just sharing a story that I figure would attempt to shed some light on the issue. 

              Kind of like bumping into a WWII German vet. We are all humans. And we react to what our leadership says. Not trying to upset anyone if it did. That wasn't my intent, at all.

Regards,
TN


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## jmlane (13 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> That said, imagine how the troops standing in the middle of this might feel about the Croats.


I know it is only human to associate the evil done under a certain label with that label itself. I hope we can find a way to remember past injustices and honour those who suffered under them, without that past impairing our ability to strive toward future cooperation, and hopefully, eventually, mutual respect and understanding.

I hope the true issue at hand is that events that transpired in former Yugoslavia is not nearly "in the past" enough to justify the lax attitude the Canadian government is taking toward near future cooperation with Croatia.


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## medicineman (13 Feb 2012)

I'm thinking some folks would be happier if the Croatian government really  acknowledged what happened, what their military and police forces did that were directly and indirectly condoned by them on their behalf and actually punished those involved...until then, as far as many are concerned, they've literally gotten away with murder.  So now, they are allowed into our mainstream alliances - what kind of message does that send?  I'd have to say they're having a big political "Nana nana boo boo" at our expense.

 :2c: for what it's worth.

MM


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## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm thinking some folks would be happier if the Croatian government really  acknowledged what happened, what their military and police forces did that were directly and indirectly condoned by them on their behalf and actually punished those involved...until then, as far as many are concerned, they've literally gotten away with murder ....


:goodpost:


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## Retired AF Guy (13 Feb 2012)

The problem with the Croats is not so much the fight they had with our guys in the Medak Pocket, but the atrocities they committed afterwards.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Feb 2012)

Not one player in that entire shit hole of a region has clean hands when it comes to atrocities.  There's a reason we called them the *******.  Build a 40' concrete wall around the whole of the FRY and start pumping from the Med.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Feb 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The problem with the Croats is not so much the fight they had with our guys in the Medak Pocket, but the atrocities they committed before/during the withdrawal and afterwards.


TFYFY


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## noneck (13 Feb 2012)

Retired Airforce Guy-

The atrocities were carried out before the HV (11th Bde "Metalica" and 9th "Lika Wolves" attacked C Coy 2VP, in order to slow down our entry into the pocket so that they would have more time to clean up and cart away the evidence. 

They did quite a good job of cleaning up after themselves, except for about 16 bodies that were found in out of the way spots and most likely overlooked when they were sweeping the vilages.

I worked with Croats a few months ago in Kabul at NTM-A.....none of them wanted to discuss Medak!

Cheers
Noneck


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## Rifleman62 (13 Feb 2012)

Shouldn't some of the anger be aimed at the UN, and the UN ROE's?


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## medicineman (13 Feb 2012)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> The problem with the Croats is not so much the fight they had with our guys in the Medak Pocket, but the atrocities they committed afterwards.



I agree - my friends' issues have to do with what they feel they could have prevented and didn't and what they had to clean up afterwards.  Mine I've already outlined above...I also do wonder what they did to some of the folks I looked after in the area I was in when they rolled over the ZOS in 1995...another time though.  When I say acknowledge what they've done, I don't just mean the Medak gig - I mean everything, as they seem to be acting like a little kid pretending nothing happened - if they believe nothing happened, maybe Mommy and Daddy will ignore it and let me do whatever I please again.  To me ( and I believe some others), I don't think they've been taken to task enough and now have some work to do to prove that they can be the country we'd hope them to be on an international stage.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Shouldn't some of the anger be aimed at the UN, and the UN ROE's?



I'm sure there is plenty of that headed in that direction too.

MM


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## OldSolduer (13 Feb 2012)

It's the atrocities of the Medak Pocket I'm still at odds with.

So called Croatian "Army". They don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as "Canadian Army"

1993 - Cowards & murderers. Scum.  :rage:

Thank you for allowing me to vent. The UN was not at fault - Medak was the fault of the Croation "army" - thugs, murdering SOBs.
Thanks.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It's the atrocities of the Medak Pocket I'm still at odds with.
> 
> So called Croatian "Army". They don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as "Canadian Army"
> 
> ...




Bingo.

The Croats were not our enemy.  We were there to help stop a civil war that demonized a population.  They had the balz to threaten our brethren in operation storm, that if they retaliated they would be liquidated.  Do not compare them to an aging WW2 German veteran.  We went there to protect their own people, and they raped us, and their own populace for their own goal.   For us to train with them, it is a slap in the face to every Soldier that served in that God forsaken area.

Again, I spit on the fact that we so lightly embrace these monsters.

What next, we take actual recognized Taliban Unit through a Live fire range in Meaford ten years from now?...Pfft.

dileas

tess


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## Tank Troll (13 Feb 2012)

Hate them all equally, always will, nothing can change my mind. There is no way in Hell that I would have any part in training them. From the shit that happen on the UN tours to the crap the were pulling on the NATO tours. F@#K THEM


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## armyvern (13 Feb 2012)

I'm just reading that article for the first time now; nil comment except to say that my stomach actually churned a little while reading it ... so soon to forget are some ...


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## Brad Sallows (13 Feb 2012)

Does this mean they'll give back our AVGP?


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## OldSolduer (13 Feb 2012)

I was in the Pocket for 10 days. Not with the Rifle companies, or Recce or Mortars (who did the dirty work) I was with BHQ - and we smelt the smoke of the fires that destroyed houses, we heard the explosions, we heard the fighting. I remember at about 0400 one morning an large explosion.....I am very sure that was th night two French soldiers wandered into a minefield and Bill Johnson prodded his way into it to effect the rescue. 
My photographer, Bill, took the pictures of the bodies. I saw them and what had been done to them.


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## OldSolduer (13 Feb 2012)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Does this mean they'll give back our AVGP?



Wasn't that in Bosnia? We had 113s in Croatia.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Wasn't that in Bosnia? We had 113s in Croatia.



Roger that, we took the M113s from the PPCLI.....Bosnia had the  AVGPs.....

dileas

tess


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## medicineman (14 Feb 2012)

The only 113's in Bosnia were the TUA's IIRC.

MM


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## GeorgeD (14 Feb 2012)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Not one player in that entire crap hole of a region has clean hands when it comes to atrocities.  There's a reason we called them the savages.  Build a 40' concrete wall around the whole of the Balkans and start pumping from the Med.



I will help you out with the geography, there are nations in the Balkans that had nothing to do with the break up of Yugoslavia. The entire region is made up of about 13 nations and over 60,000,000 people, some of those people emigrated to Canada and some are even serving in the Canadian Forces. A number of them having served in Afghanistan including people born in Croatia, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Bulgaria, European Turkey, Albania you know pretty much from ALL four corners of the Balkans.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Feb 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> I will help you out with the geography, there are nations in the Balkans that had nothing to do with the break up of Yugoslavia. The entire region is made up of about 13 nations and over 60,000,000 people, some of those people emigrated to Canada and some are even serving in the Canadian Forces. A number of them having served in Afghanistan including people born in Croatia, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Bulgaria, European Turkey, Albania you know pretty much from ALL four corners of the Balkans.


May I ask when did you serve there?


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## GeorgeD (14 Feb 2012)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> May I ask when did you serve there?



I haven't gone overseas, but that does not prevent me from pointing out that painting an entire region(Some of which are NATO Members) in the same brush as those who committed atrocities.I am not talking specifically about Croatia, I was too young to be there or understand what the issue was for that matter I am talking about grouping nations that have nothing to do, basically calling me and my family savages, because I was born in his version  of an undesirable region.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Feb 2012)

Thanks for the historical context, Pumpkin.  You obviously lost the Sarcasm, and the hate we have for the area we were sent to defend, and instead were thrown into a meat grinder.  Now low and behold, we embrace them as our "Buddies"....


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## medicineman (14 Feb 2012)

I have buddies that are ex-pats from the area too - and none of them served in the HVK/HVO, JNA, SVKArmy, BiH Army, etc.  Our problems are with the militaries of the FRY and the shite and abuse they heaped on unarmed civilian populations and pretending it didn't happen...and now our own government for not taking them to task more fervently before crawling into bed with them.

Hope they double wrapped first.

MM


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## GeorgeD (14 Feb 2012)

Again, I have no comments about Croatia or the people who committed the atrocities. My problem is being called a savage because I was born in the Region(Bulgaria) and I was in the geographical region when those atrocities were committed.


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## the 48th regulator (14 Feb 2012)

Mods, me being one, I understand the need to want to shut down such threads, however, I think our Government needs to know what Veterans of the Balkans feel about this blatant slap to our face.

Please ease up on the lock trigger finger, and let us Balkan Veterans vent at how we have once again, have been slapped in the face.

dileas

tess

UNPROFOR 94/95


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## AJFitzpatrick (14 Feb 2012)

edited on better judgement


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## Kat Stevens (14 Feb 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> Again, I have no comments about Croatia or the people who committed the atrocities. My problem is being called a savage because I was born in the Region(Bulgaria) and I was in the geographical region when those atrocities were committed.



Very well.  I will amend my statement to include only the Former Republic of Yugoslavia.  Oh, and Kosovo can be the kiddie pool annex.  Better?  Dreadfully sorry, and thanks awfully for the geography lesson, when I got off the second train to arrive from Lahr in March of '92, our maps were photocopies of photocopies of 30 year old ADAC tourist maps, very hard to read with any accuracy.

EDIT:  I have amended my original "offending" post, as there are more than a few "guests" scanning this thread, and my comments and those of others may be poached with nefarious intent, and also to accommodate my new young Bulgarian friend.


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

I stumbled upon this thread by accident and must say that I am shocked.
I had no idea that that the Canadian Armed Forces is full of uneducated racist rednecks.

You have no clue about the history of Canada so I guess it can't be expected of you to understand the history of a small country in Europe.

You place all this hatred on the Croats - but you appear to love the Serbs.

The Croats, a subjugated people, just wanted out from under the thumb of communist and Serb oppression 
- and for that you demonize them?

You talk about long lasting grudges and hatreds are you any better?  just look at the comments on this thread.

Did some atrocities happen?  Probably. They happen in every war.
Was it systematic?  No.  
Should it be used to characterize an entire nation of people?  No

Let me put it into perspective - the Croats are similar to Quebec.
Quebec decides to separate.

What would you as the Canadian Military do? 
 Would you go into Quebec and start killing Quebecers like the Serbs came into Croatia to kill Croats?

How would the Quebecers protect themselves against English invasion?

But what more can be expected from redneck grunts that have no education
and can't find a real job in the real world

I am saddened and disgusted that people like you "defend" our nation

I REMIND YOU ALL OF 1991 - OPERATION DELIVERANCE - AIRBORNE REGIMENT - SOMALIA
If the Canadian military is so professional - why was the Airborne Regiment DISBANDED?


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## aesop081 (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> You place all this hatred on the Croats - but you appear to love the Serbs.



This thread was about Croatia. So i commented about Croats. If you start a thread about Serbs, i will tell you what i think of them too. I saw what Serbs did in Croatia. I was also in Kosovo, i saw what Serbs did there.



> for that you demonized them?



I demonise them for the senseless and brutal killing of inocent civillians.


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter...check PM.


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I demonise them for the senseless and brutal killing of inocent civillians.



How many civilians have Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan?

How many civilians has the US Army killed all over the world?
I think back to the video, from Iraq, where a helicopter gunship shoots unarmed civilians and even a child in a van - and the helicopter pilot and the guy giving orders appear to be "having fun" shooting up the place.

For such a "civilized" country - Canadian grunts are not very civilized.

Where is the perspective?

I wonder how many of the "big talkers" here are still active military
It would be quite sad to think you still are


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## aesop081 (14 Feb 2012)

Ah, i see what you are going to be like.

Goodbye.


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

No carrot and stick here mate. Nice try though


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> But what more can be expected from redneck grunts that have no education
> and can't find a real job in the real world
> 
> I am saddened and disgusted that people like you "defend" our nation



Some of us highly educated 'grunts' are saddened that we have the honour of defending the Rights and lives of people like you, but do so as our commitment to our nation not you.





			
				zz000ter said:
			
		

> I REMIND YOU ALL OF 1991 - OPERATION DELIVERANCE - AIRBORNE REGIMENT - SOMALIA
> If the Canadian military is so professional - why was the Airborne Regiment DISBANDED?



Why was the CAR disbanded?  It was disbanded as a 'knee jerk' reaction of a weak Liberal Government under a weak Prime Minister who could never make a decision and hoped that if he ignored a problem it would go away.  Instead of focusing on disciplining and charging the few 'rotten apples', Chretien punished the whole regiment and CF.  


As for teaching us history, I think you still have much to learn yourself.


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why was the CAR disbanded?  It was disbanded as a 'knee jerk' reaction of a weak Liberal Government under a weak Prime Minister who could never make a decision and hoped that if he ignored a problem it would go away.  Instead of focusing on disciplining and charging the few 'rotten apples', Chretien punished the whole regiment and CF.



Wow - the racist rednecks here go on to characterize and demonize an entire nation and the present day military of Croatia (the vast majority of who were not involved in the war of independence) for the actions of a few rotten apples - YET you say the CAR was disbanded due to a knee-jerk reaction to some rotten apples.

Where is the logic?
Or is the racist hatred clouding your judgment?

By the way - CAR was disbanded due to longstanding systematic problems.
Problems which should not ever occur in a "professional" military


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

Leave it alone George...it isn't worth the Kb...we've seen this type before...baiting and nonsensical rants about nothing. It is hung up on racism and other matters of which it dosn't have a clue about.


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> Wow - the racist rednecks here go on to characterize and demonize an entire nation and the present day military of Croatia (the vast majority of who were not involved in the war of independence) for the actions of a few rotten apples - YET you say the CAR was disbanded due to a knee-jerk reaction to some rotten apples.
> 
> Where is the logic?
> Or is the racist hatred clouding your judgment?
> ...



So I am a racist redneck......As a Mod on this site, I now suggest you reread the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines that you agreed to when you registered a few minutes ago to this site.

I have no idea what you are learning in your school in the NCR, but obviously history and current events are not one of your strong suits.  You appear to have very biased anti-establishment and strong anti-military views which will not hold you in good standing on this site.  I may suggest you find another site to preach your gospel in.


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

It's too cool to track IPs....just sayin'


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## Mike Bobbitt (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> By the way - CAR was disbanded due to longstanding systematic problems.



Let's assume that's true, if for no other reason than there are many threads here already covering this topic, so we don't need to veer into that here. If that is the case, along with this comment:



			
				zz000ter said:
			
		

> Problems which should not ever occur in a "professional" military



Then the CF - a professional military - did the right thing by your own words. You can't have it both ways; the CF can not be brimming with uneducated rednecks *and* have done the right thing under the trying circumstances of Somalia.

I'm not sure what other ghosts and deflections you're going to try to bring into your argument about the Croats, but please keep this discussion on topic. If you have other side conversations you are burning to fight about, seek out one of the existing threads.


Cheers
Mike


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## TN2IC (14 Feb 2012)

From reading his profile.. it looks like a punk that never seen combat. Nice try bud.

Regards,
TN

Op Athena


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

Jammer said:
			
		

> It's too cool to track IPs....just sayin'



BRAVO!  "IP Address Hunter"
Is that some sort of "threat"?
Will you hunt me down and "carry on the conversation"?
You gonna pull a "Colonel Williams" on me?

As I said, I am disturbed and disappointed with the mindset here.

If you are still active military then you are doing a poor job representing Canada.

I have captured this thread as a PDF and it will be sent to the Minister of Defence and to the Croatian Ambassador.


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

TN said:
			
		

> From reading his profile.. it looks like a punk that never seen combat. Nice try bud.



So you went to a far away land - had superior firepower
Killed some locals and then came home to play video games

You are a tough guy - yeah

Did you ever live in oppression?
Did you have your parents killed by a communist regime?
Did you strike back at the first chance you had to free your people from oppression
 - even if it meant that the vast majority of people that took up arms had no training
AND had meager weapons and ammunition supplies.

You make me laugh - your machismo and bravado

Afghanistan - the "New Generation War"
Go out in big armour plated vehicles or fly around in helicopters
When you get into the shiiit you call for US helicopter gunships to wipe out the village for you

Then you go back to your protected camp, play ball hockey and drink your Timmies

Huuuurrrraaaaahhhhhhhh !


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

Well you are disappointing and quite possibly disturbed, but then again I'm not qualified to provide a clinical diagnosis. I do love the affinity you have with using quotations though...much like someone who needs to use the cute hand gestures to emphasize a point. 
Blather on...we're all waiting...


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

Andrew Mitrovica....this might be our man...


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## dangerboy (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> I have captured this thread as a PDF and it will be sent to the Minister of Defence and to the Croatian Ambassador.



Make sure you highlight the part at the bottem of the page where it says "Unofficial site, not associated with DND."


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

Just a reminder for the membership:


There is an old saying:

"Arguing with an ________________, is like wrestling with a pig; you both get dirty, but the pig loves it."


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## GAP (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> So you went to a far away land - had superior firepower
> Killed some locals and then came home to play video games
> 
> Huuuurrrraaaaahhhhhhhh !



Alright, who opened the gates on the recruiting threads? ........toldchu they couldn't be trusted, but no, you let them loose on society..........now to collect them all before they muddy up all the threads..... :


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

How many of you are active military?

Your comments here do reflect directly on the CF.

How many of you go to "work" with the attitudes you communicate here?

The Croatian soldiers who are training in Canada, your NATO allies, will go back home with a rather poor impression of the Canadian Forces.

Tell me this - how many of the soldiers you are dealing with today were part of the Croatian War of Independence and the so called atrocities you speak of?

The answer is BARELY NONE

 - yet you today judge a new generation of soldiers, by the sins of their fathers.

Have any of you dealt with any of the new generation soldiers?
Have you met them on training in Borden?
Have you worked with them in Afghanistan?

From what I hear, the Croat soldiers are getting good reviews in Afghanistan.

I know that the soldier's mind is a simple one - 
 - but I hope that you can understand what I am saying.



Canadian "Professionalism"?

JTF2 command 'encouraged' war crimes, soldier alleges
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

How many of you PPCLI types wanted to go to Croatia in the hopes of "getting your first kill"?
We have heard the stories.




			
				Jammer said:
			
		

> Andrew Mitrovica....this might be our man...



So now I am being hunted and harassed?
How cool is that?
Professional!


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## zz000ter (14 Feb 2012)

Canadian "Professionalism"?

JTF2 command 'encouraged' war crimes, soldier alleges
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

How many of you PPCLI types wanted to go to Croatia in the hopes of "getting your first kill"?
We have heard the stories.


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## Journeyman (14 Feb 2012)

Onlinebetting.ca already has him listed at 20:1 as 'banned by 1600'   

      op:


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## Jammer (14 Feb 2012)

Answer to your questions...Yes on all accounts.
The overall impression I got was that they should have finished the job that was started in the 90s...(yes Virginia even the new guys). Racism...pemiates the stench of the "Croatian Army".

Cool,  that I was able to peg you though.


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## jollyjacktar (14 Feb 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Onlinebetting.ca already has him listed at 20:1 as 'banned by 1600'
> 
> op:


Can't come soon enough, bloody troll.   :


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## Mike Bobbitt (14 Feb 2012)

Sorry for the interruption folks, we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.


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## Scott (14 Feb 2012)

They're so see through these days. Tsk, tsk. What happened to the trolls of old that actually had some substance to them?

*le sigh*


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## TN2IC (14 Feb 2012)

Thanks Mr Bobbit. BZ to you and your staff.


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## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2012)

If I actually was tasked with working with the Croatian Army types sent here, I'd lay it on the line first off by telling them I was at Medak in 93 and they have to prove themselves in my eyes. 

Twenty years can change an army, as we have seen ourselves


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

ZZ

Actually, there is no anonymity on the internet.  It really is quite easy to find out who you are.  No threat needed.  Any person with a little tech savvy can do it.

It is quite easy to peg you as a Croat, simply by deducing from your registration on this site and immediate posting to this topic in a trolling manner.  As you haven't paid attention to warnings from the Site Staff, you are now 'on their radar'  and being looked at from numerous angles and sources.   If you want to come onto the internet, visit a site and troll, then expect to be investigated by the site administration.   


It is well know that Croatia is trying desperately to become a member of the EU and NATO, but is being held back from doing so because of numerous humanitarian concerns that have yet to be dealt with is a satisfactory manner by the Croatian government.  It is all Open Source news.  Your involvement and lobbying may be righteous in your eyes, but not so in others.  

As for sins of their fathers, I am quite sure many of the senior leadership in the Croat military are still from the era we are talking about.

As for training in Borden, is this a location you pulled out of a hat or something no one has the privilege of knowing until you let loose the secret here?




Once again there is an old saying:

"Arguing with an ________________, is like wrestling with a pig; you both get dirty, but the pig loves it."


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## jollyjacktar (14 Feb 2012)

TN said:
			
		

> Thanks Mr Bobbit. BZ to you and your staff.


Yes, I'll second that.  Thank you.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2012)

More on Canada-Croat military relations, from this Croat military news release (dated 13 Feb 12) announcing Canada's new Defence Attache to Croatia:


> Deputy Chief of General Staff of the Croatian Armed Forces for Operations Rear Admiral Zdenko Simičić received on 8th February 2012, , the Defense Attaché of Canada to the Republic of Croatia, Colonel Donald Denne in his inaugural visit.
> 
> The meeting started with the words of welcome and greetings and Rear Admiral Zdenko Simičić emphasized the good cooperation between the Canadian Armed Forces and Croatian Armed Forces. Admiral Simičić introduced Colonel Denne with the difficult tasks of the Croatian Armed Forces and the work on the strategic and planning documents. He pointed out that the recent history in this region was burdened with conflicts, and that we, as NATO member, together with the support of A-5, have taken over the initiative in the region. Together, we give support to the Afghan National Security Forces and Military Police in the MP School in Kabul where Croatia is the Lead Nation. They talked about the participation of the Croatian Armed Forces in 9 missions, and Colonel Denne praised the members of the CAF engaged in international peacekeeping missions. Colonel Denne said that due to decreased budget, the Canadian Armed Forces plan to downsize the number of the members deployed in peacekeeping missions.
> 
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2012)

zz000ter said:
			
		

> How many civilians have Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan?


0


> How many civilians has the US Army killed all over the world?


Bout a dozen




> For such a "civilized" country - Canadian grunts are not very civilized.


here here!
Canadian grunts need appache gunships!



> I wonder how many of the "big talkers" here are still active military
> It would be quite sad to think you still are


Bunch o freakin airsofters!



Good post George.  wrong way to go about defending croatia's good name.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Good post George.  wrong way to go about defending croatia's good name.


Some might even say he protests too much.


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## medicineman (14 Feb 2012)

I can't say I'm upset he's gone...and I do hope he sends some mail to the MND as well as the Croatian ambassador.  Free speech works in both directions .

MM


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Some might even say he protests too much.



Moi?   Never.    ;D



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> I can't say I'm upset he's gone...and I do hope he sends some mail to the MND as well as the Croatian ambassador.  Free speech works in both directions .
> 
> MM



I am wondering if Mr zz will include links to this thread in what he threatens to send to the Honourable Peter McKay and what he sends is uncensored as to show the fallacies of his logic unedited.


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## medicineman (14 Feb 2012)

I'm sure he'll conveniently leave out his stuff if he PDF'd it...

MM


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## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2012)

I've noticed on a few other forums in passing that Croats and Serbs and Bosnain Muslims (proper word?) make an act of playing nice together but the minute someone mentions that one side did something naughty it's like lighting a match inside a gas tank.  It's always pretty much the same argument between them. And lots of them are from young kids. STILL a lot of hatred there and the new generation is getting it taught by the old one.


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## George Wallace (14 Feb 2012)

Let's remember, the "old" generation are not really that "old" and likely the ones who are now in strategic political and military positions in Croatia; just as they are in Serbia, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.  These hatreds and ways of thinking take generations to change.  Education often is the key to changing such attitides.


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## Good2Golf (14 Feb 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Moi?   Never.    ;D
> 
> I am wondering if Mr zz will include links to this thread in what he threatens to send to the Honourable Peter McKay and what he sends is uncensored as to show the fallacies of his logic unedited.



Just guessing, but I would not be surprised if Army.ca was bookmarked by some members of the Minister's staff.   :nod:


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## Scott (14 Feb 2012)

Quick, tell idiot boy, don't want him wasting paper when he prints that PDF. Save some trees, man.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Feb 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Just guessing, but I would not be surprised if Army.ca was already bookmarked by some members of the Minister's staff.   :nod:


FTFY  ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Feb 2012)

How about everyone just forget about our interloper, move back to the original topic and quit dragging the thread off course.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## OldSolduer (14 Feb 2012)

This is all about the $ for Canadian companies.

I wrote some time ago to the PM's office when Chretien was PM and asked what was being done to bring the perpetrators of the Medak Pocket to justice.
It appears nothing was being done. The president (Tudjman) is dead and so is the "general" who planned it.

Some "army" that had to murder old people, kids and animals . Scum.

Of course we were accused of fabricating it.....by Croatia.


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## noneck (14 Feb 2012)

Myself and a few of the other guys from Charlie Coy are going back next year to Medak. We plan on doing a bit of a gumball rally around Sector West and then heading down to Sector South. Hit up Opatija and Lake Balaton for S&G's. Maybe even cross over to Ortona for a walk around. 

I know that on some of the SFOR tours guys went back and checked out the area. Is it repopulated or still a dead zone where we would have to find lodging in Plitvice Park or on the coast? If anybody on the site has been back any advice or points of interest would be great.

Cheers
Noneck not Redneck


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Twenty years can change an army, as we have seen ourselves



1945 - just finished a 6 years slugging match with the Germans.

1965 - our Brigade is in a formation with German units ready to fight and die on German soil.

How things change.


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## jollyjacktar (15 Feb 2012)

I read some comments earlier that some WW2 vets, my Dad included had lost their hatred of the Germans they faced and would be able to sit down with them.   But, I could never see myself being all friendly or forgiving towards the Taliban.  At least I don't expect that I have enough years left in me to let the fires die down any.  

I was fortunate enough to avoid Yugo so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can understand the outrage the Yugo vets must be feeling.  I would feel the same if we got all warm and fuzzy with the Taliban.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Feb 2012)

jollyjactar,
I'm semi quoting my Father here [wish I paid more attention while I had the chance] but he stayed in Germany a year after the war and always said the hatred was lost on the German soldier but when it came to former members of the SS....... 

Our next door neighbour for more than 40 years was an ex- German officer who thanked God everyday he was captured by the Americans and not the Russians.


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## Edward Campbell (15 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I read some comments earlier that some WW2 vets, my Dad included had lost their hatred of the Germans they faced and would be able to sit down with them.   But, I could never see myself being all friendly or forgiving towards the Taliban.  At least I don't expect that I have enough years left in me to let the fires die down any.
> 
> I was fortunate enough to avoid Yugo so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can understand the outrage the Yugo vets must be feeling.  I would feel the same if we got all warm and fuzzy with the Taliban.




Yes, see this article from the CBC. Ortona saw some of the most brutal fighting in the annals of war ~ these men looked past their fear and hatred and met again as men, not enemies.

And yes, indeed, we, Canadians, did stand shoulder to shoulder with German allies against the Warsaw Pact: we trained together, drank beer together, visited one another in our messes and homes, became friends ... despite what had happened just 20 or 25 years before.

In other threads, here on Army.ca, we bemoan the fact that immigrants bring their "old country" conflicts and hatreds here to Canada with them and then teach them to their children ~ some of us are in danger of doing the same thing.


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## jollyjacktar (15 Feb 2012)

My Dad was a D Day dodger and saw extensive action in Italy.  He said most of the time when they identified the opposite force it was usually the 1. Fallschirmjägerdivision.  He had the highest regard for them as professional crack troops and felt they were some of the best troops in the world.  He never mentioned the SS, guess they didn't rate in the standings.  

Having been brought up on his tales of the German soldiers as he knew them, it was somewhat of a shock to see the youngsters in Shilo circa 1980.  Not the same class... nice guys though.


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## Old Sweat (15 Feb 2012)

Your grandfather probably did not encounter any Waffen SS formations in Italy, as they were employed largely in NWE and on the Eastern Front. Contrary to their popular image, SS formations were mistrusted by senior Germany army officers as they tended to be lacking in tactical skills and all arms coordination, as opposed to strict adherence to ideology. The latter led to too many frontals and gut feel reaction immediate counter-attacks, and lack of attention to the rules such as the Geneva Convention.

The German paratroops, on the other hand, were generally respected - Lockie Fulton, who commanded the Royal Winnipeg Rifles from the Leopold Canal to VE Day, told me they were the best soldiers he had ever met - , and even the average German formation was rarely a pushover. The German army also tended to observe the rules. I read in the last couple of days an account by a member of 6 Airborne Division who was badly wounded and lying in the open. A German medic ran out and tended to his wounds. When shells began to fall, the German protectd the British soldier with his own body and then stayed with him until other British soldiers arrived. The wounded man acknowledged that he owed his life to an unnamed German medic.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2012)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> .... the hatred was lost on the German soldier but *when it came to former members of the SS*.......


Well said - that's probably a close similarity to Croatia, with this being the biggest difference ....





			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> .... The German army also *tended to observe the rules* ....


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## jollyjacktar (15 Feb 2012)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Your grandfather probably did not encounter any Waffen SS formations in Italy,


He sure didn't.  He fought with the LdSH in France in WW1.   ;D 

My Dad though, I can't say as he's been gone since 85.  He never mentioned them, he did see service in France, Holland and Germany after Italy.  He never mentioned them, he commented on the Yanks, the Dutch Resistance etc etc but never the SS.  I'm sure he must have come across some of them somewheres.  Even as POW's.  Dad did not like to talk about the war too much despite my pestering him as a kid unless it was a funny story.  He once gave me a copy of "And no birds sang" by Farley Mowat, said "that's what Italy was like.  Now shut up and stop asking me"


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## Robert0288 (15 Feb 2012)

Both my grandmothers were in German POW work camps in Poland, one grandfather was a polish cavalry officer before joining the Americans, the other fought in the Warsaw uprising before becoming a POW and then eventually becoming an American medic.  They have all seen some pretty terrible things, and I'm sure I've only ever heard of a small part of it.  But to my knowledge they never hated the Germans as a people, only the individuals who've done things to them, and they never passed on any of that to my parents or myself.  Today some of their grandchildren are married to Germans.


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## HollywoodCowboy (15 Feb 2012)

As a Canadian Scroat myself, I just have to defend Mr. Z, he after all was beaten by his mother with a wooden spoon, along with Baba's help, we Croatian men are very ashamed of this and have a hard time dealing with it.
I missed him before he was banned but I'm sure he's sitting in his parents master bedroom yelling at the comp as we speak.
Don't worry bro, I feel your pain, it's hard moving out of your parents house, but think about it, you have a sick ride with a deadly sound system, now go pucker your lips in front of a mirror.


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## medicineman (15 Feb 2012)

:goodpost:

Thanks - I needed that  ;D.

MM


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