# Inadequate PT On QL2s



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *ghallman <ghallman@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:30:45 -0400*
I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from the
winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors that it
was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and that
there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint that
bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used as
punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year it
seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put on
the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at 4:30
and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the whole
course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just a
degradation of standards within my unit.  
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <forsythe@tic.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:04:30 -0700*
Welcome to the kinder, gentler army of the new millenium - you‘re right
there are new restrictions on the amount of PT allowed on a QL2 - it‘s
leadership by management -- you figure it out
one more thing - PT is never punishment - when employed properly it is a
motivating tool used to build self-esteem in individuals.  It was never
intended to allow some thick-skulled instructor to demonstrate just how much
time he/she spends at the gym working all their muscles - including the one
between their ears.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"RYAN YOUNGSON" <ryoungson@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:16:19 CST*
I hate hearing about sub standards in training. Kind of makes it hard to be 
proud. Does anyone know if the same problem exists in reg force?
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:17:37 PST*
I‘m running a QL2 course as we speak, and about to start
another one... I think you‘ll find that it isn‘t any easier
than when you were on yours.  However, PT cannot start before
0530 because of rules from WATC possibly from NDHQ.  This
doesn‘t change the rest of the course though.  Many nights, they
aren‘t free until 2200, and they are not allowed to wander
around the base at all.
Finally, even if they could wander, they wouldn‘t have time to
wander... we keep them busy.
Also, yes, we have had to relax on some of the methods we did
punishment and other instructional techniques... but it just
forced us to become more apt to use mental stress on the
candidates.  You can still do good training nowadays, you just
have to find ways to do it without violating the new ‘rules
of engagement‘.  It forces instructor‘s to use their heads and
not their lungs.
Steve
>From: ghallman 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Inadequate PT On QL2s
>Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:30:45 -0400
>
>I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from the
>winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors that it
>was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and that
>there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint that
>bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used as
>punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year it
>seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put on
>the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
>generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
>lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at 4:30
>and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the whole
>course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
>standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
>wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just a
>degradation of standards within my unit.
>
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 16:40:37 -0800*
Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
ghallman wrote:
> 
> I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from the
> winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors that it
> was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and that
> there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint that
> bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used as
> punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year it
> seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put on
> the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
> generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
> lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at 4:30
> and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the whole
> course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
> standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
> wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just a
> degradation of standards within my unit.
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:37:54 -0600*
I recall incidents of being put on "pack parade" and after three or four evenings
of it, the only thing corrected was my body weight. Although it certainly did
build stamina and attention to detail. I will admit though, that whatever got me
on to "pack parade" was not done again. I guess it was an effective form of
"corrective training" after all.
Pro Patria
Carl
Ian Edwards wrote:
> Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
>
> ghallman wrote:
> >
> > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from the
> > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors that it
> > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and that
> > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint that
> > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used as
> > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year it
> > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put on
> > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
> > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
> > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at 4:30
> > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the whole
> > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
> > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
> > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just a
> > degradation of standards within my unit.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Larry MacDonald" <lmacdona@mnsi.net>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 21:05:49 -0500*
Fortunately, I never had to participate in pack drill.  It did however bring
to mind  another term and practice that is probably long gone which was
"stick man". The best dressed on parade was excused the duty, e.g fire
piquet, etc.
Now where did I put those pack squares?
One definition still comes to mind.  "The aim of drill is to develop in the
individual, that sence of instinctive obedience which will enable them to
carry out their duty at all times"  Flyleaf of the old CAMT 2-2 Drill.
There was an earlier series of emails concerning parades.  I can vividly
recall the first morning that our troop during depot really responded as
one.  The Troop Cpl called us to attention and instead of the sporadic
sounds of individuals, there was a single resounding crash as all moved at
the same time.  Pick up six and drive down twelve.  That unison of movement
continued from that day on.  We marched from the barracks to the Camp MIR
for inoculations.  Not a snicker or comment in the ranks and had been the
norm.  I am not sure what week of depot it was but what a feeling when it
occurred.
Other instances that come to mind include being on a Jnr NCO Course with the
RHR Black Watch and having one of the other candidates crash the butt of his
FN into your boot toecap as all are scurring out the door to form up.  Or
there was that sence of helplessness when you can literally feel your puttee
is unravelling and the weight starting to descend out of position.  That
almost matches the freedom of movement one would experience when after
marching on a snow packed roadway with hobnailed soles, you march into a
heated drill hall.  It made for some interesting reactions as you skidded
across the drill hall floor.
Regards
Larry MacDonald
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> [mailtowner-army@cipherlogic.on.ca]On Behalf Of Ian Edwards
> Sent: March 15, 2000 7:41 PM
> To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
>
>
> Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
>
> ghallman wrote:
> >
> > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his
> QL2 from the
> > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our
> instructors that it
> > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left
> out and that
> > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main
> contsraint that
> > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used as
> > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year it
> > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress
> being put on
> > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
> > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
> > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at 4:30
> > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d
> the whole
> > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
> > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
> > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just a
> > degradation of standards within my unit.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Wed, 15 Mar 2000 20:54:12 -0800*
To help our "memory" we carried A/T practice mines, filled with sand.  After
a day of marching and working on the Mattawa Plain, with one of those, you
usually remembered to pay attention to those "little" details
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
> I recall incidents of being put on "pack parade" and after three or four
evenings
> of it, the only thing corrected was my body weight. Although it certainly
did
> build stamina and attention to detail. I will admit though, that whatever
got me
> on to "pack parade" was not done again. I guess it was an effective form
of
> "corrective training" after all.
>
> Pro Patria
>
> Carl
>
> Ian Edwards wrote:
>
> > Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> > and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> > punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> > Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
> >
> > ghallman wrote:
> > >
> > > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from
the
> > > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors
that it
> > > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and
that
> > > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint
that
> > > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used
as
> > > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year
it
> > > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put
on
> > > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
> > > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
> > > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at
4:30
> > > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the
whole
> > > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
> > > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
> > > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just
a
> > > degradation of standards within my unit.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
>
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:58:02 -0600*
That lovely little piece of real estate known as the Mattawa Plain is also well
ingrained in my memory. It has no doubt helped thousands of soldiers the value
of paying attention to detail. I can‘t recall the name of the ridge to the west
of the plain, but it was the site of my favorite Rememberance Day parade where
we stood down from a defensive position exercise and marched up the ridge for a
moving service and a hot toddy. Perhaps it was the setting or our state of mind,
but I‘ve never been moved by a parade or ceremony that way since.
Pro Patria
Carl
dave newcombe wrote:
> To help our "memory" we carried A/T practice mines, filled with sand.  After
> a day of marching and working on the Mattawa Plain, with one of those, you
> usually remembered to pay attention to those "little" details
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 5:37 PM
> Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
>
> > I recall incidents of being put on "pack parade" and after three or four
> evenings
> > of it, the only thing corrected was my body weight. Although it certainly
> did
> > build stamina and attention to detail. I will admit though, that whatever
> got me
> > on to "pack parade" was not done again. I guess it was an effective form
> of
> > "corrective training" after all.
> >
> > Pro Patria
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > Ian Edwards wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> > > and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> > > punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> > > Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
> > >
> > > ghallman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2 from
> the
> > > > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors
> that it
> > > > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out and
> that
> > > > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main contsraint
> that
> > > > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be used
> as
> > > > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This year
> it
> > > > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being put
> on
> > > > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we would
> > > > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we were
> > > > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off at
> 4:30
> > > > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d the
> whole
> > > > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was below
> > > > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m just
> > > > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is just
> a
> > > > degradation of standards within my unit.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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> >
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave newcombe" <davebo@seaside.net>* on *Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:55:40 -0800*
I think it might be "Clement Hill".  The ancient birthplace of the sandflea!
Spread through this land in the gotchies of soldiers for over 75 years.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
> That lovely little piece of real estate known as the Mattawa Plain is also
well
> ingrained in my memory. It has no doubt helped thousands of soldiers the
value
> of paying attention to detail. I can‘t recall the name of the ridge to the
west
> of the plain, but it was the site of my favorite Rememberance Day parade
where
> we stood down from a defensive position exercise and marched up the ridge
for a
> moving service and a hot toddy. Perhaps it was the setting or our state of
mind,
> but I‘ve never been moved by a parade or ceremony that way since.
>
> Pro Patria
>
> Carl
>
> dave newcombe wrote:
>
> > To help our "memory" we carried A/T practice mines, filled with sand.
After
> > a day of marching and working on the Mattawa Plain, with one of those,
you
> > usually remembered to pay attention to those "little" details
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 5:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
> >
> > > I recall incidents of being put on "pack parade" and after three or
four
> > evenings
> > > of it, the only thing corrected was my body weight. Although it
certainly
> > did
> > > build stamina and attention to detail. I will admit though, that
whatever
> > got me
> > > on to "pack parade" was not done again. I guess it was an effective
form
> > of
> > > "corrective training" after all.
> > >
> > > Pro Patria
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > > Ian Edwards wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> > > > and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> > > > punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> > > > Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
> > > >
> > > > ghallman wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2
from
> > the
> > > > > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors
> > that it
> > > > > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out
and
> > that
> > > > > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main
contsraint
> > that
> > > > > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be
used
> > as
> > > > > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This
year
> > it
> > > > > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being
put
> > on
> > > > > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we
would
> > > > > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we
were
> > > > > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off
at
> > 4:30
> > > > > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d
the
> > whole
> > > > > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was
below
> > > > > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m
just
> > > > > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is
just
> > a
> > > > > degradation of standards within my unit.
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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>
>
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Fri, 17 Mar 2000 07:57:33 -0600*
I do believe you‘re right, thanks.
Carl
dave newcombe wrote:
> I think it might be "Clement Hill".  The ancient birthplace of the sandflea!
> Spread through this land in the gotchies of soldiers for over 75 years.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 10:58 AM
> Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
>
> > That lovely little piece of real estate known as the Mattawa Plain is also
> well
> > ingrained in my memory. It has no doubt helped thousands of soldiers the
> value
> > of paying attention to detail. I can‘t recall the name of the ridge to the
> west
> > of the plain, but it was the site of my favorite Rememberance Day parade
> where
> > we stood down from a defensive position exercise and marched up the ridge
> for a
> > moving service and a hot toddy. Perhaps it was the setting or our state of
> mind,
> > but I‘ve never been moved by a parade or ceremony that way since.
> >
> > Pro Patria
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > dave newcombe wrote:
> >
> > > To help our "memory" we carried A/T practice mines, filled with sand.
> After
> > > a day of marching and working on the Mattawa Plain, with one of those,
> you
> > > usually remembered to pay attention to those "little" details
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Carl DINSDALE" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 5:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: PT On QL2s- Pack Drill
> > >
> > > > I recall incidents of being put on "pack parade" and after three or
> four
> > > evenings
> > > > of it, the only thing corrected was my body weight. Although it
> certainly
> > > did
> > > > build stamina and attention to detail. I will admit though, that
> whatever
> > > got me
> > > > on to "pack parade" was not done again. I guess it was an effective
> form
> > > of
> > > > "corrective training" after all.
> > > >
> > > > Pro Patria
> > > >
> > > > Carl
> > > >
> > > > Ian Edwards wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps now is the time for some of the old sweats to jump in
> > > > > and tell you about "pack drill". Well, it really wasn‘t called
> > > > > punishment, merely "corrective training". And good practice for a
> > > > > Lance Corporal what was that, Dad? to learn to administer.
> > > > >
> > > > > ghallman wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I‘m a member of an LFAA Militia Infantry regiment who did his QL2
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > winter of 99 to the spring of 99.  We were told by our instructors
> > > that it
> > > > > > was a new QL2 course that was cut down with many things left out
> and
> > > that
> > > > > > there were new constraits put on the instructors.  The main
> contsraint
> > > that
> > > > > > bothered me and a few other candidates was that PT could not be
> used
> > > as
> > > > > > punishment and that there was a general lack of PT given.  This
> year
> > > it
> > > > > > seems the standard has gone down once again with less stress being
> put
> > > on
> > > > > > the QL2 candidates.  On training weekends on my QL2 course we
> would
> > > > > > generally start the day at 5 with PT and get off around 10 if we
> were
> > > > > > lucky.  This course is starting at the same time but getting off
> at
> > > 4:30
> > > > > > and being allowed to go anywhere on the base while we were CB‘d
> the
> > > whole
> > > > > > course.  This all distrubes me because I believe my course was
> below
> > > > > > standard and I‘ll have to work with these people next fall.  I‘m
> just
> > > > > > wondering if this is a standard accross the country or if this is
> just
> > > a
> > > > > > degradation of standards within my unit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
> >
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