# The working wounded



## dangerboy (8 Mar 2008)

In Afghanistan, Canadian fighters have been sustaining serious injury on a scale not seen since Korea. When they return, what prospects are there for soldiers who can't soldier any more?  Siri Agrell investigates

SIRI AGRELL

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

March 7, 2008 at 11:22 PM EST

nside the offices of the Royal Canadian Regiment sniper unit, Master Corporal Jody Mitic spends most of his day alone. Occasionally, other soldiers will poke their heads through the office door to say hello, or to let him know that they've shovelled his driveway.

Sitting at a wooden desk typing e-mails on an outdated PC, he's the only soldier here dressed in civilian clothes. His prosthetic feet rest on the bottom drawer of a dented filing cabinet. The steel rods that now serve as his shins peek out between his worn hiking shoes and the cuffs of his baggy warm-up pants.

On his left forearm a dramatic tattoo displays the Roman numerals I-XI-MMVII — Jan. 11, 2007, the date when, as the leader of an elite sniper team doing reconnaissance in Afghanistan, MCpl. Mitic stepped on a land mine and triggered the explosion that took both his legs from just below the knee. After extensive rehabilitation, the 31-year-old returned to work at CFB Petawawa a year later.

"I don't know how long I'll be here, because I'm not deployable," he says. "I'm kind of in the way."

Since Canada's mission in Afghanistan began in 2002, more than 280 service people have been wounded in action, suffering shrapnel wounds, nerve damage and amputated limbs and, in many cases equal damage to their identities as soldiers. It is the first time in decades that Canada has found itself with a military population with permanent disabilities, one that is likely to grow.

The Canadian Forces' traditional policy is that all soldiers, even those injured in combat, are required to pass the universality-of-service test, a physical threshold that proves them ready to return to war. When a career administration board deems them unfit, they are given three years to accept medical release.

But as more soldiers incur disabilities serving their country, it has become more urgent to ask whether Canada has done all it should in return. In December, Chief of Defence Staff Rick Hillier announced orders to personnel to apply policies more flexibly, allowing the injured to remain in the forces even if they must transfer to less physically demanding jobs outside the infantry. 

[It is a long article so the rest is in the link]

Article Link


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## RHFC_piper (8 Mar 2008)

> MCpl. Franklin had no intention of leaving the military. He returned to work in September of 2006, six months after losing his legs, and began logging half-days with his old ambulance unit, *expecting to use his field experience to teach soldiers about the bloody realities of being a medic at war*.
> 
> His expectations did not mesh with opinions in his unit. "They wanted me to shred paper and move books around the library, basically disappear from the front lines," he says. "*I wanted to teach tactical medicine*."
> 
> Last year, he was offered a job at the Canadian Forces medical school, but *not as an instructor*: They wanted him to work as a security guard.



This seems to be a common theme;  the soldiers with the most direct tactical/operational experience being pushed into a position where their knowledge goes unused... 
Reference; Jody Mitic: Probably has the most 'hands on' experience in tactical recce and sniper skills and could be employed to teach theory, at the very least.  
Reality; 





> Inside the offices of the Royal Canadian Regiment sniper unit, Master Corporal Jody Mitic spends most of his day alone. Occasionally, other soldiers will poke their heads through the office door to say hello, or to let him know that they've shovelled his driveway.
> 
> Sitting at a wooden desk typing e-mails on an outdated PC, he's the only soldier here dressed in civilian clothes.



How is he being employed?  Is he being employed effectively?  Could he be employed in a manor that both benefits the unit/CF as well as give him a sense of usefulness?



> "I don't know how long I'll be here, because I'm not deployable," he says. "I'm kind of in the way."



This doesn't sound like a soldier who feels he is being employed efficiently and effectively.  Perhaps I am wrong... But I know that feeling and I can see it in his eyes and hear it in his words (video).



> (His unit) has offered him a role teaching reconnaissance and sniper courses in the meantime.



I really, really hope this pans out for him...  This is exactly how he should be employed; teaching the next generation of snipers and soldiers. (or even working with standards to improve, in any way, training plans.)



> "You'd hate to think that a medical unit doesn't understand what it's like for someone to return to work with these kinds of injuries, but obviously that was the case," (MCpl Franklin) says.



Again... I know this feeling.  Is this the best way to employ this member? Especially a member who has very very 'hands on' experience with the most important and relevant techniques used in operational first aid...  I gotta tell ya, if I were deploying again, I'd want this guy teaching me everything he knows about combat first aid... 



> "If they're employable in part, even if they don't meet the universality-of-service standards, they could be retained," says Mr. Wenek, the military's condition-of-services director. "And that's largely a result of the fact that we're short people so we have to make use of all the skill sets that are available."


Those who can't; Teach.  Wounded members still employed are the perfect people to forge new skill sets in their peers.



> A rifleman with Bravo Company before his injury, (Mike Barnewall) was now moved to an operations and training unit, where he organized schedules for shooting ranges and oversaw the resources necessary to keep forces primed for action, a clerical job normally filled by a healthy soldier.
> 
> "I didn't want them to just make something up for me. That's bullshit," he says. "'If there's no work for me, I'm not coming to work,' is how I thought of it."



Again, I know how he feels.  Showing up to "busy work" makes you feel like a useless lump just consuming space.  Until I was given my current position, I pretty much sat around in the OR answering phones (I don't like answering phones...).  I was happy it was only half days and I was pushing to go back on medical leave 'cause I was bored and felt like I was doing nothing useful.  At least now I feel like I'm benefiting the unit (somewhat) as the Unit Recruiter...



> Pte. Salikin's biggest fear remains that without the army he is useless, unemployable. "That's pretty much what I thought of right away and ever since," he says. "Especially in infantry, we don't have a whole lot of marketable skills out in the real world."



A very good point was brought up to me, the other day, by an Airborne vet I met at my gym; "Now that your injured, how easy do you think it will be to get a job?"  
I didn't think it would be a huge issue.  For now, I'm still employed by my PRes unit, but if I wanted to make a career out of the forces, it wouldn't be in the PRes... So, I'll eventually have to get a civilian job or CT (which may be hard with a PCAT).  
He made another good point; "If you're looking for a job with benefits, you'll have to submit to a medical, or submit medical files... this may hinder employment as most employers won't want to hire a health insurance liability."  He had gone through this when he was released from service due to an injury sustained from a jump. 
Now, how does this relate?  "Especially in infantry, we don't have a whole lot of marketable skills out in the real world." + Medical Insurance liability = reduced chance of civilian employment.  And as much as there's legislation and laws regarding discrimination, unless a potential employer comes right out and says "we're not employing you 'cause you're going to cost us money thanks to your extra holes or lack of limbs" you can't really prove much.  That's just the reality of it.  All they have to say is "We'll let you know." then they don't... pretty simple.



> Although some soldiers may find it hard to believe, the private sector is beginning to take note of injured personnel and to offer them jobs outside the military.
> 
> In his e-mail to The Globe and Mail this week, Gen. Hillier writes, "If they decide that a civilian career is what will work best for them, then we have great partnerships with private companies, and the public sector and working with Veterans Affairs to make that transition as seamless as we can.



This seems like hope on the horizon for those who want to/have to move into the private sector and I'm glad to hear this is happening. But... 





> "I have a degree in long-range shooting and sneaking up on people," he says. "I don't think that's going to get me too far with any Fortune 500 company."



What about those who still feel they can contribute?





> "I'm an infanteer and I want to stay an infanteer." - MCpl. Mitic.





> But for him, what would it mean for his injuries to have a purpose? He talks about Canada's role in Afghanistan, but then admits that his own ability to remain a soldier would help give context and meaning to his loss.
> 
> "I'm good at my job," (MCpl. Mitic) says, looking down past the tattoo to where his feet used to be. "I was. I might be again."



This is how a lot of us feel.  Speaking from my own experience; I want to stay in the forces, even if it's 'just' the PRes.  This article concentrates on the Reg F and doesn't really reach the PRes members who are in the same boat... the biggest difference; Injured PRes members have to return to the civilian work world from whence they came no matter what.  The biggest down side; a lot of wounded PRes members really can't go back to what they were doing before they left for Afghanistan.  I worked in a machine shop before I deployed... there is no way in hell I could go back to that.  I couldn't stand on concrete for 8 to 10 hours a day... and since I've been 'out of the loop' for 2 1/2 years now, I have lost touch with the skills I had fresh out of college (which are hard to get back when you don't have access to a CNC or Manual milling centre or lathe.)

Either way, injured members of both PRes and Reg F want to feel useful... 

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate all the efforts the CF had gone through to keep us employed, but there are days when I feel like I'm just 'marking time' until something else happen.   I don't mind my job in the unit; recruiting does make me feel useful to the unit, but I feel that I could contribute more with my experiences.  The biggest issues with this are; 1) I'm not qualified to instruct, so all the knowledge in the world wouldn't be useful as I'm not "qualified" to pass it on. 2) I'm not "fit" to work with the rifle company.  3) Nothing I know fits into the training plan of a PRes unit (or so I've been told).   So, for now, I will do my job to the best of my ability until something else happens (marking time).  

What this article tells me is that there is a very useful resource available to the CF that is going unused.  Soldiers like MCpl. Mitic and MCpl. Franklin want to and are able to contribute in their trade, if nothing else, in knowledge and training... and yet, they either release because they feel they have no future or they sit in a "make work" job and hope and wait for something better.   For a military that stresses "lessons learned" (at least in operation), this just seems like a waste.
I'm glad to hear some of the wounded are being offered civilian employment and awesome opportunities for retraining and re-education (myself included), but for those of us who would still like to carry on in the forces, it just seems like we're being pushed into a corner until we can be pushed out the door (that may just be my take on it...)


I'll tell you this from the view point of a wounded soldier; not being able to do what you were once able to do makes you feel absolutely useless.  Being handed a job for the sake of keeping you working (make-work jobs) makes you feel like a useless burden.   Sitting around waiting for something to happen makes you feel useless...   and feeling like everything you've gone through, all you've experienced and all you've learned is useless information thanks to your injuries and restrictions makes you feel incredibly useless and unappreciated.  This really wears on the soul after a while... and sometimes this feeling of uselessness results in a very grim reality;


> Late last year, Private Frederic Couture of CFB Valcartier provided one chilling glimpse of what it can be like when that capacity is gone. Having stepped on a land mine nearly a year earlier, leaving him with one leg amputated below the knee, Pte. Couture killed himself in November in his Quebec home.
> "I'm 21 years old and I've lost my foot," he screamed at the time of his injury. "What am I going to do now? What do you think I'm going to do?"



I've come to terms with my 'daemons', but there are many out there who have a very tough time dealing with this loss of 'capacity'.

*10 to 14 Canadian soldiers commit suicide each year* (Article link)


> March 03, 2008
> The Canadian Press
> 
> MONTREAL
> ...



How many of these 132 soldiers have come home wounded (physically or mentally)?  And how many have felt useless because of it?




I just hope the members interviewed and reported on in this article are getting all the help they need, and are being employed in the most productive and useful way possible, weather by the CF or otherwise.  

As much as I piss and moan, I do understand the bigger picture... 


> "That might not mean everything the soldier wants, but it's something," (MCpl. Franklin) says. "The army is trying. They may not be doing it right, but at least they're trying."



I would say I hope they perfect the system some day, but at the same time I hope they don't have to...



Just some food for thought.   Sorry about yet another marathon post.


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## observor 69 (8 Mar 2008)

RHFC I have followed your comments in this forum with great interest and every time I am impressed by your ability to write in a clear and thoughtful manner.
Even with the benefit of a university education many are unable to express their thoughts as clearly and rationally.
I would guess that you have heard this compliment before. Many of us struggle to express ourselves but occasionally you come upon someone who just seems to have the ability to write with clarity and apparent ease.
Remember as you work at finding a way forward  that you are a person of definite personal ability and strengths.
And I am also aware that you have the help of a dedicated partner.


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## tech2002 (8 Mar 2008)

I agree as well with above comments , I have read many of your responses on this site, through your experience , pain you went through you understand the picture of how the system works, and how many injured feel after get wounded, and how unwanted quickly become, because of the system.. the actions and complains are slowly increasing which is good, because many of need to be heard , and hopefully the system can be fix , and some opportunities can be created,


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## The Bread Guy (8 Mar 2008)

Thanks very much for sharing RFHC - can't still be easy, but what you share here has to make a difference.  Keep up the fight...

I was impressed to see businesses hooking up with the CF to find jobs for the injured - yet ANOTHER reason for me to fly WestJet (and I will make sure to tell the ticket agents when I try to fly tomorrow that this is one more reason why I bring my business there).


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## RHFC_piper (8 Mar 2008)

I appreciate all the kind words regarding how and what I write... Can't say I've always been able to express things "clearly" (without grunting, spitting and swearing... yes.. even in writing.) But, as Baden put it; I've had the benefit of a dedicated and loving grammar nazi wife.

But I digress; 



			
				milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I was impressed to see businesses hooking up with the CF to find jobs for the injured - yet ANOTHER reason for me to fly WestJet (and I will make sure to tell the ticket agents when I try to fly tomorrow that this is one more reason why I bring my business there).



I agree.  I'm glad these opportunities are available.  And I have to say; things are getting better, slowly but surely...  The military is eager to help and has been since day one. The CDS and his General Staff have been ready, willing and able to bend over backwards for the troops in every way possible, as I've experienced first hand (Thank you LFCA Cmdr and CMP).  From those I've talked to, as well as my own experience, I'd say the CF has gone above and beyond for the wounded troops.   But, MCpl. Mitic makes a very good point in the video attached to the article; sometimes it feels like there's a lot of attention, but not in the right place at the right time.  As much as everyone wants to help, there are times when the right help isn't available.  

As well, there seems to be gaps in some services, such as VAC, where injured members encounter issues... but a lot of this can be attributed to the blurring of lines between the care and benefits now applied by the CF and those which, up until recently, were solely the domain of VAC.  Because of this blurring, and what each organization is entitled to provide, there are times when neither can provide exactly what is needed when it's needed.  

With all that said; both the CF and VAC are doing all they can to address and correct as many problems as they can... they've even sought to correct problems they haven't even come across yet.  A few months ago, myself and another wounded reservist were invited to meet with the CMP, and the LFCA cmdr along with their respective staff, LFCA medical staff and representatives from VAC.  This meeting was to lay out the chain of events a wounded soldier goes through and how things can be improved.  Needless to say, it was a very productive meeting and everyone present was open to any and all opinions and suggestions.  I was very impressed at the attention given to the opinions of the wounded soldiers.  Every detail of the discussion was filtered through us to ensure that it was accurate, and we were given the opportunity to interject at any time to add our two cents.  I must say, I left the meeting with the sense that things were only going to improve... but change is hard and takes time.  So as much as I see fixable faults, I can usually understand why they exist, and I can usually see that people above me are trying to make change for the better.    

Besides, the way I see it; if someone as low on the rung as I can see problems, it stands to reason that there are many above me who have seen the same issue and have more authority to affect change... but that won't stop me from passing it up to my CoC.   Above all, I'm more than satisfied knowing that there are those, in higher positions, who are willing to listen to those who need help. 

I must say, though; I am very impressed that civilian organizations have stepped up to offer work for the wounded, and I hope these opportunities are being used to their fullest potential.   Good on them.


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## Starlight31 (8 Mar 2008)

I have e-mail traffic at work that state's "The CDS is the only releasing ath for soldiers injured in the Ghan", sent all the way down from CMP??


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## armyvern (9 Mar 2008)

Starlight31 said:
			
		

> I have e-mail traffic at work that state's "The CDS is the only releasing ath for soldiers injured in the Ghan", sent all the way down from CMP??



Fact.


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## The Bread Guy (9 Mar 2008)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> ....if someone as low on the rung as I can see problems, it stands to reason that there are many above me who have seen the same issue and have more authority to affect change... *but that won't stop me from passing it up to my CoC.  * Above all, I'm more than satisfied knowing that there are those, in higher positions, who are willing to listen to those who need help.



Anytime you might be having a less-than-stellar day, hitting yer head against the wall, check the highlighted part above and know that no matter what job title you have, you ARE making a difference just by letting people who may be able to make a difference to the group know what needs to be fixed.  I like to think that one voice who's been there saying, "uh, guys, maybe need need to tweak this?" should count for more than boxes of consultants' reports generated in the interests of activity in lieu of action. 

Take care!


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## slowmode (10 Mar 2008)

RHFC, I've been following your comments for quite some time and there stunning. I'm glad to read every post of yours, it not only educates me but It allows me to read a an educated response. Thank You Very Much for your posts

   This is an amazing article and I never looked at injuries in Afghanistan that way. I'm glad there are opportunities for the injured soldiers. Once a soldier always a soldier. I think even if your not deployable you can still use your knowledge to teach those under you.


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## GAP (10 Mar 2008)

One of the points not mentioned too much is the credibility of the personnel that have been wounded....teaching. Nobody has more credibility in front of a bunch of newbies than one that has BTDT and has the t-shirt to prove it. It's amazing the concentration of attention given to their lessons.


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## RHFC_piper (10 Mar 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> One of the points not mentioned too much is the credibility of the personnel that have been wounded....teaching. Nobody has more credibility in front of a bunch of newbies than one that has BTDT and has the t-shirt to prove it. It's amazing the concentration of attention given to their lessons.



Heh... this one kills me.    Every once in a while, I poke my head out from behind my desk during a training night and wonder up to the parade square where the troops are training.  I'm usually just there to take a look at what I might be able to get back to in a few months, or just to shoot the poop with some of my buddies in the company (or the RQMS in the back of the building).   But, every time I come up to the floor, someone grabs me to talk to the troops about something from my experiences, or to pass on some simple skills picked up from working with a Reg F reg...  Sometimes it's as simple as "teaching" tactical mag changing drills, or better and more efficient ways to clean/maintain a personal weapon, or whatever... either way, it usually goes from chatting with a section, to having the platoon circling me like I'm handing out candy... and they do this with out being herded.   And I've seen the same reaction when any of the other "tour vets" come out to play.  

The troops are thirsty for real life, hands on, first hand knowledge from those who have "been there, done that"... weather or not that member has been wounded.


Warning: PRes War story inbound... strap on your part time helmet. 
So, a few weeks ago, on a Thursday night, All the senior leadership for the company were whisked away to the local PRes Arty unit to learn about calling in Indirect fire (a worth while endeavor in my books) and left the Junior leadership in charge of training for the evening.   They were given instructions to practice TOET and Section attack drills for an upcoming (now past) live fire section attack range (made me wish I could run and carry a load... damn it), as well as correct some issues from the last exercise involving pairs fire and movement... I guess there were some issues with changing magazines.  

Normally, I would cringe at the idea of JRs being left to their own devices to complete any kind of reasonable training (or at least not half-assed), but the troops buckled down, and when I made my way up to the floor to visit "the boys", I was astonished to find them hard at work (they usually stand around waiting to be told what to do) changing mags on one end of the floor, watched over by a senior CPL, and calling out GRITs on the other side of the floor with another senior CPL... meanwhile, another section was practicing section, group and team movement under the direction of yet another senior CPL... all being managed by a MCpl acting as the Plt Cmdr/Pl WO for the evening.

When I got up to the floor, I made my way over to my buddy who was teaching tactical mag changes.  He has never served overseas and was basing what he was teaching on what I had showed him, and other interested parties, when I had first gotten home.  And he was doing it perfectly.  
Anyway, I was just there to be an observer... but after a while, he asked me to walk around and help pick out problems... soon he had me demonstrating and then teaching. (keep in mind, neither of us are qualified to teach).  

The irony of all this is; when I first got home, I was asked to make a list of what kinds of things I found useful, in the way of personal soldier skills, which should be taught at unit level.  Number 1 on my list was TOET, instinctive shooting and tactical mag changes; the bread and butter of modern infantry work.  Yet, after submitting this, my suggestions, as well as the same suggestions from other members who were on my deployment, were disregarded as being only useful for operations and are/were too advanced for the PRes infanteer...  Funny that.    Then comes the first live fire, tactical range for the training year and members are having trouble quickly and effectively engaging targets... then some members are having issues with changing mags in a tactical environment... one member even set his rifle down to replace his magazine in his TV (I won't even get into how much that made me both mad and laugh hysterically... needles to say, that member bought many a round in the mess after that faux pas)

So, when I heard the tales from the range, and remembered how my and other previously deployed members comments and suggestion were ignored, my first reaction to being asked to instruct techniques to correct this was to laugh and walk away... but then my integrity (what ever that is.. ;D) got the best of me and I realized it was the troops themselves asking this of me (and of my counterparts in the other platoons with this experience), and I couldn't just play the smug *** card...  Besides, that would have just been unfair to those who genuinely wanted to learn how to be better soldiers... which was all the JRs.

Now, will I do this again?  Yes.  Any time a soldier in my unit wants to know what I know, I will open my head and let them pick my brain clean... Will I go to my chain of command and bug them to let the vets share their knowledge? No... I've spent too much time at this already and have been given the official answer; I am not qualified and I am not fit.  But, as I've said; this will not stop me from giving out the information when asked directly.  Too many people hoard information like it's some kind of commodity. These people have to realize that anything withheld in our line of work only weakens a unit and, in operations, can cost lives.  If my telling a soldier how to change mags effectively in a fire fight helps him down the line, weather in training or in operation, and in turn helps him help another soldier in the same way; those words uttered will not be wasted.

Anyway, in summation; I guess I'm just pissing and moaning about the fact that with all the benefits we, the wounded, get from the forces, we still have some to give back.  I don't want to pass on my knowledge because I think I'm a better soldier than others in my unit... far from it... I want my fellow soldiers to be better than me, by taking what I know, and what others know and formulating their own soldier skills and techniques from that.  This isn't about ego. It's about passing on skills and knowledge, and lessons learned from combat.  This is something every unit should be taking full advantage of.  In short, I'm saying I want to be used to better the unit and, in turn, the CF... that's the least I can do for all the opportunities I have been granted and care I've been given since I've been home.



Now, I'm sure someone from my unit is going to read this, and I'm going to have to do some 'splainin' when I come off of leave...


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## simysmom99 (10 Mar 2008)

Piper, Paul feels the same way.  His CoC also feel he is not "qualified" to teach.  But when someone comes up and asks, you bet he is on board to share his knowledge.  Keep up the good work.  We all know that just a few voices can change many things.


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## RHFC_piper (10 Mar 2008)

simysmom99 said:
			
		

> Piper, Paul feels the same way.  His CoC also feel he is not "qualified" to teach.  But when someone comes up and asks, you bet he is on board to share his knowledge.  Keep up the good work.  We all know that just a few voices can change many things.




Weather or not things change in the grand scheme of things, I'm just glad to know that others feel the same way I do and will work to improve the skills and abilities of their peers no matter what.   In my mind, this is the epitome of professionalism; members want to learn to improve their skills, and those with the experience want to pass on their knowledge.


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## X-mo-1979 (10 Mar 2008)

RHFC_Piper:
I keep seeing references to you not being "qualified" to teach.It's called "professional development",tell your ptl WO you want the pratice and ask him to critique your classes afterwards with you.You seem to want to get back to the troop's why not take this time now to improve yourself/prep for leadership courses and stop making an excuse.

Prior to having a JLC/PLQ many of us lowly Cpl's taught classes and it made it much easier when we were being assest on our PLQ.Had a friend tell me his son had gotten in many TIC's during his last tour and the most nervous time in his life was being assessed by a Sgt on his knowledge class. ;D

Bring it up your CoC,I'm sure if their worth anything they would look at it the same way I do.


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## RHFC_piper (10 Mar 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> RHFC_Piper:
> I keep seeing references to you not being "qualified" to teach.It's called "professional development",tell your ptl WO you want the pratice and ask him to critique your classes afterwards with you.You seem to want to get back to the troop's why not take this time now to improve yourself/prep for leadership courses and stop making an excuse.



Technically, I don't have a Pl WO... I report directly to Ops & Trg.  But, with that said, I'm on TCAT, soon to be PCAT...  No PLQ for this guy... not until I can run (thanks to spasming muscles around wounds that ain't gunna happen soon.)

As for using time to prep; I have a copy of the PLQ handbook from standards and have been reading it.  I've also been gathering as much info on teaching, leadership and everything else associated with PLQ.   

When I do have the opportunity to pass on knowledge, it's usually very casual.  Not really something I'd want to go into a critique.  I'd rather the troops actually learn and understand the skills rather than worry about weather or not I followed ICECAP (or PAC... which ever.. I've heard both).



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> stop making an excuse.



How is being told that "I will not pass on information to the troops as I am not qualified" from my CoC making excuses?   Funny, I have this "excuse" and yet I still make my self available to pass on knowledge... soon you'll be saying I'm disobeying a direct order by passing on my experience.   A familiar tone... 




			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Prior to having a JLC/PLQ many of us lowly Cpl's taught classes and it made it much easier when we were being assest on our PLQ.Had a friend tell me his son had gotten in many TIC's during his last tour and the most nervous time in his life was being assessed by a Sgt on his knowledge class. ;D



Just about every other reservist from my plt overseas has since completed PLQ, and from what they told me, they had no problems...  One of them sited the fact that "at least the instructors are firing mortars at you... and your buddies are dying all around you."   Kind of a morbid way to see it, but the way we look at it is; I've been shot at by both the enemy and our allies, and I survived hell on Earth... what is a course?



			
				X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Bring it up your CoC,I'm sure if their worth anything they would look at it the same way I do.



Actually I have...  and they do.   And plans are in motion.  I just get bitter when I read things like;


> MCpl. Franklin had no intention of leaving the military. *He returned to work in September of 2006, six months after losing his legs, and began logging half-days with his old ambulance unit, expecting to use his field experience to teach soldiers about the bloody realities of being a medic at war.*
> 
> *His expectations did not mesh with opinions in his unit. "They wanted me to shred paper and move books around the library, basically disappear from the front lines," he says. "I wanted to teach tactical medicine."*
> 
> Last year, he was offered a job at the Canadian Forces medical school, but not as an instructor: They wanted him to work as a security guard.



This just seems like a waste of resources... in a time when we (as an Army) are so disparate for people to teach.


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## geo (10 Mar 2008)

Funny thing that, not having a JLC course.
I have seen a number (lots) of people who have taken their JLC course and who could not teach their way out of a wet paper bag.  I have seen a number of ORs who, without any leadership course, could motivate and lead troops to hell and back.  

When push comes to shove, you don't really need a JLC course to teach someone something.  The course will provide method and hone skills but, it isn't essential... IMHO


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## X-mo-1979 (10 Mar 2008)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> When I do have the opportunity to pass on knowledge, it's usually very casual.  Not really something I'd want to go into a critique.  I'd rather the troops actually learn and understand the skills rather than worry about weather or not I followed ICECAP (or PAC... which ever.. I've heard both).




I suggested that as your higher would proably accept it if they were there to make sure you were instructing it properly.This way you both win.You can teach the skill's properly in a military format.Students get your information.Win Win.




			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> How is being told that "I will not pass on information to the troops as I am not qualified" from my CoC making excuses?   Funny, I have this "excuse" and yet I still make my self available to pass on knowledge... soon you'll be saying I'm disobeying a direct order by passing on my experience.   A familiar tone...



As I said it's most likely the way your approaching it.If your that bitter about not teaching do something about it.I just offered a suggestion that I see would help.Take offence to it or not.



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Just about every other reservist from my plt overseas has since completed PLQ, and from what they told me, they had no problems...  One of them sited the fact that "at least the instructors are firing mortars at you... and your buddies are dying all around you."   Kind of a morbid way to see it, but the way we look at it is; I've been shot at by both the enemy and our allies, and I survived hell on Earth... what is a course?



True enough.I added it as a funny anecdote to lighten the message.



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Actually I have...  and they do.   And plans are in motion.  I just get bitter when I read things like;
> This just seems like a waste of resources... in a time when we (as an Army) are so disparate for people to teach.



It is a huge waste of resources,but I believe many time's it's higher trying to look after their soldier by giving them menial 9-4 jobs where they can have a flexable schedule for appointments etc.Also not adding too much stress into their life's planning stuff out for a course/the long hours.Now I understand that not everyone want to be sitting around bored outta their minds (I wouldn't/didn't last month when I was lid up) however sometimes you gotta think about the other side of the coin....or look at it negative,get down the dumps etc. 

hang in there.

X-mo-1979


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## retiredgrunt45 (12 Mar 2008)

> Funny thing that, not having a JLC course.
> I have seen a number (lots) of people who have taken their JLC course and who could not teach their way out of a wet paper bag.  I have seen a number of ORs who, without any leadership course, could motivate and lead troops to hell and back.



I agree with that sentiment. I've seen more than a few "wetbacks" that's what we called newly promoted MCpl's who just finished their ISCC or whatever its called now a days JLC courses come back to the battalion and try to show up a few of our senior Cpl's who had been in their particular jobs for more than a few years and who had years of experience. These young ones soon found out that they really didn't know as much as they thought they did. They also found out that they could actually learn something from these OR's.

It's not the courses and the theory that makes you a good leader it's the experience you've gained and can draw upon when needed that makes a good leader and what many leaders fail to grasp these days is the respect from the troops who will follow you, without respect from your troops your just treading water. You can have every course in the book and still be a "wanna be" I've seen more than my share from my Cpl for life perspective.


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## brihard (12 Mar 2008)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Just about every other reservist from my plt overseas has since completed PLQ, and from what they told me, they had no problems...  One of them sited the fact that "at least the instructors are firing mortars at you... and your buddies are dying all around you."   Kind of a morbid way to see it, but the way we look at it is; I've been shot at by both the enemy and our allies, and I survived hell on Earth... what is a course.



Piper,

I did my Mod 6 with J.L. (4RCR) from your platoon, and P.F. (48th?) from your company H.Q. Both of them excelled in the course and had a lot to offer, and it was apparent that the instructors were appreciative of having reservists with their experience in the platoon. Believe me in that if you're able to get back into shape to go on course, you're gonna kick some ass on it.


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## RHFC_piper (12 Mar 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Piper,
> 
> I did my Mod 6 with J.L. (4RCR) from your platoon, and P.F. (48th?) from your company H.Q. Both of them excelled in the course and had a lot to offer, and it was apparent that the instructors were appreciative of having reservists with their experience in the platoon. Believe me in that if you're able to get back into shape to go on course, you're gonna kick some *** on it.



Heh... those are the boys I was referencing.      J.L.'s a good cat.  I run into him every once in a while... I'm glad he got salad in his bowl, he's got a lot of good exp, and a great attitude about all we went through (ask him about the piece of shrapnel he pulled from his neck after the FF... Tip of the 30mm HEIT round... pretty bad-ass)


Anyway, I have to say, after tour, I don't stress about stuff so much (although it may seem like it some times), I've learned how to leave work at work and have a whole new perspective on things; "it can always be worse."   With that said, and not to sound over-confident, but I'm not to worried about PLQ (at least not the stress).  

Thanks for the vote of confidence.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Mar 2008)

CAVEAT:  I'm trying to tread lightly here around a sensitive issue, but I have a question I think is worth hearing more about.

To me, it makes the ultimate sense to have people who have been there, done that share their hard-earned knowledge - there's NOTHING to replace first hand experience when it comes to sharing life-saving techniques and information.

I'd be curious to hear from anyone with direct experience on this, though:  the article sorta-kinda hints that some individuals may be, for the want of a better word, squeamish about having the wounded about.   Is that the case on the ground for those of you working through these things?

Part of me wonders whether if any discomfort (again, I'm groping for the right word) individuals may feel, or behave on, is individual, or based on the "discomfort" of the system?  I can't look into people's brain or hearts, but is there a reluctance on the part of some people in the system about having other troops regularly interacting with the wounded?   Maybe as a reminder of the mortality of one's flesh (as opposed to, looking at the other side of the coin, how a strong heart and perservering spirit can do much to overcome scars of the flesh)?

If the system is firm about treating the wounded as much as possible like colleagues who can still contribute meaningfully, but in a very different way than they have before, I would think this would filter down via the leadership mechanism to the troops.  If the system is squeamish is a whole, though, that would have to change tout suite before other reforms can happen.  I know the CDS appears keen on having the final say on the fate of the wounded, but there's a LOT of levels of bureaucracy/leadership between him and the individual members working so hard to get back into the fight (if not literally, at least into areas through which they can contribute more effectively).


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