# Canada rejoins NATO Airborne Warning and Control System program



## dimsum (14 Feb 2018)

Anyone want a posting to Geilenkirchen, Germany?    :nod:



> February 14, 2018, Brussels, Belgium — National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces
> 
> The Government is committed to both the security and safety of Canadians and the protection of their rights and freedoms. Canada is playing a strong and constructive role in the world by making concrete contributions to international peace and security – including at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
> 
> ...



https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2018/02/canada_rejoins_natoairbornewarningandcontrolsystemprogram.html


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## kev994 (14 Feb 2018)

Nope, it comes with a 3 year restricted release when you return.


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## Zoomie (14 Feb 2018)

I’m in....


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## dimsum (14 Feb 2018)

kev994 said:
			
		

> Nope, it comes with a 3 year restricted release when you return.



Ah, only if you're a Pilot or AEC   :nod:

(There are still Navs on those planes, right?)


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## Rifleman62 (14 Feb 2018)

Ditch, do you have any experience with AWAC's? :nod:


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Feb 2018)

Once upon a time there were 2 x Sgt's position (non-flying ones) for my trade there...fingers crossed.


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## Good2Golf (15 Feb 2018)

I heard it was cash only to the mission for now. In the months to come, we may recognize this initial movement as the beginning of a clumsy and crass bid for a key position in NATO...time will tell. 

:2c:

Regards 
G2G


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## Cloud Cover (15 Feb 2018)

So spending cash on a project to support the % GDP commitment (if there was such a commitment).


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Feb 2018)

There you guys go, throwing rocks at our house of dreams (OUTCAN!!).   

 ;D


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## Good2Golf (17 Feb 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There you guys go, throwing rocks at our house of dreams (OUTCAN!!).
> 
> ;D



Haven’t you been OUTCAN for a bit, EITS? ;D


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## Sub_Guy (18 Feb 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There you guys go, throwing rocks at our house of dreams (OUTCAN!!).
> 
> ;D



Come on EITS!

We have dry AES Ops in Poland, Sig and a new OUTCAN posting to Creech AFB..

Try being a wettie, our options are crap! 

I’m glad Canada is getting back in the AWACS game.


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## Zoomie (18 Feb 2018)

What’s the OUTCAN to Creech all about?   Vegas living!


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Feb 2018)

Ditch said:
			
		

> What’s the OUTCAN to Creech all about?   Vegas living!


e

We are sending a couple people (1 x pilot, 1 x AESOp, I think) to gain some more RPA experience.


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Feb 2018)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Haven’t you been OUTCAN for a bit, EITS? ;D



I've spent some time away from my postal code the past several years for sure, but not a good stable go like Gk would be...I had...limited off-duty 'travel options' on most of my time away of late.   8)


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Feb 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Come on EITS!
> 
> We have dry AES Ops in Poland, Sig and a new OUTCAN posting to Creech AFB..
> 
> ...



1 x WO Poland
2 x Sig spots (not interested in that one at all)

What is this new Creech one?  I didn't hear about this...I'm going to take a bet its a WO position and someone coming out of Sig will go to it?

I'll pass on the ASO option, and have dodged it a few times...I think I am reasonably safe to stay doing what I'm doing, thankfully and am not moving this APS.  That also means I am likely not going to put my name in the hat for Creech... :not-again:


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Feb 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 1 x WO Poland
> 2 x Sig spots (not interested in that one at all)
> 
> What is this new Creech one?  I didn't hear about this...I'm going to take a bet its a WO position and someone coming out of Sig will go to it?
> ...



The guy going to Creech is currently a Sgt. Don't know if a promotion is in the works, or not.


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## Eagle_Eye_View (18 Feb 2018)

The Creech one is a Sgt position. We sent up a name from the school. I hope he gets it. I also heard we might get one more position over there.


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Feb 2018)

Jesus...I just heard about this one today on here and the name has already been pretty much decided???  When did this pos'n get announced (quietly, I am assuming as I didn't hear about it).  I was away in Nov/Dec *but* news like that usually travels fast.  I didn't hear a whisper about it.

rly:


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## Sub_Guy (18 Feb 2018)

Eagle Eye View said:
			
		

> The Creech one is a Sgt position. We sent up a name from the school. I hope he gets it. I also heard we might get one more position over there.



You are probably the only unit to send a name up. 

Funny how the school seems to be sending folks first to Sig and now Creech.   🤔


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Feb 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> You are probably the only unit to send a name up.
> 
> Funny how the school seems to be sending folks first to Sig and now Creech.   🤔



The Sgt's I know at my Sqn didn't even frackin' know about it until last Friday...I heard about it on here.   :


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## Eagle_Eye_View (18 Feb 2018)

Ah!  :rofl:

We need incentives to attract potential instructors.


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Feb 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> You are probably the only unit to send a name up.
> 
> Funny how the school seems to be sending folks first to Sig and now Creech.   🤔



The name I heard was not from the School. Just sayin...


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## Sub_Guy (19 Feb 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> The name I heard was not from the School. Just sayin...



Good to know.  It is extremely disappointing and demotivating when it comes to news like this.  

Does anyone know if there is an appetite to get Canadian aircrew (not this year) back in the NATO AWACS?  Or are we just going to throw $$$ at the program.   

Was there a posting for an ACSO within the NATO AWAC community?   Asking for a friend.


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## Baz (19 Feb 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Good to know.  It is extremely disappointing and demotivating when it comes to news like this.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is an appetite to get Canadian aircrew (not this year) back in the NATO AWACS?  Or are we just going to throw $$$ at the program.
> 
> Was there a posting for an ACSO within the NATO AWAC community?   Asking for a friend.



I know there was at least one ACSO only Maj position, and one LCol that I *think* was ACSO only; they were both flying positions.  I'm pretty sure there were more.

However, it is unlikely that the ACSO position's will return, even if aircrew are being sent at some point.  The NATO AWACS cockpit is being transitioned to glass, and the navigator being removed from the aircraft, so ACSOs won't be required in the force.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Feb 2018)

When I was in HQ AFCENT (Brunssum, NL) in the 1980s I met a lot of the Canadian in Geilenkirchen:* there were lots of flying jobs and also a large support contingent, including a couple of C&E Branch colonels and a few AERE and Log officers in the NATO AWACS organization.

_____
* It was only 10 miles away


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## dimsum (19 Feb 2018)

Baz said:
			
		

> However, it is unlikely that the ACSO position's will return, even if aircrew are being sent at some point.  The NATO AWACS cockpit is being transitioned to glass, and the navigator being removed from the aircraft, so ACSOs won't be required in the force.



I guess if that's the case, then the Canadian ACSO positions in Elmendorf, AK and Tinker, OK will be gone soon too  :'(


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## AirDet (19 Feb 2018)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> You are probably the only unit to send a name up.
> 
> Funny how the school seems to be sending folks first to Sig and now Creech.   🤔



Thant doesn't surprise me. The SCWO here is really big on getting people as much experience as possible. He's all about career progression. It's nice to see.


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## Baz (19 Feb 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I guess if that's the case, then the Canadian ACSO positions in Elmendorf, AK and Tinker, OK will be gone soon too  :'(



I'm not sure about that... NATO AWACS and US AWACS are different and are having different upgrade paths.  I don't know if the US is removing the nav or not.

My info comes from when I was NATO AGS... at the time AGS belonged to NAEW&C Force Command which was (is) co-located with SHAPE at Mons, Belgium; NAEW&C FC was also the parent command of the Force in GK.  AGS moved out of NAEW&C FC while I was there; I'm not sure who the belong to now.

If you would like to know why AGS belonged to NAEW&C at the time... 


Edited to add:

It looks like both the US and NATO AWACS are getting the same upgrade and removing the nav.  Various sources say it, but the clearest I quickly found was:


> As the name DRAGON (Diminishing Manufacturing Sources Replacement of Avionics for Global Operations and Navigation) suggests, one of the problems the AWACS fleets are having is finding parts for their old avionics. Both the USA (Block 40-45) and NATO (Mid-Term Modernisation) have implemented billion-dollar upgrade programs for radar and mission systems over the last decade, but that doesn’t mean much if you can’t fly the plane. New ICAO standards as of 2015 add another layer of urgency, in order to keep the fleet flying within international civil airspace.





> The upgrade will reduce the flight deck crew from 4 people to 3, with the removal of the previous navigator position.


https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/enter-the-dragon-nato-usa-upgrading-e-3-awacs-cockpits-07428/

As the article implies, my understanding is that the back end (radar and computer) upgrades were different.


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## Zoomie (21 Feb 2018)

USAF isn’t getting rid of Navigator for quite some time.


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## dimsum (21 Feb 2018)

Ditch said:
			
		

> USAF isn’t getting rid of Navigator for quite some time.


The spot on the AWACS, or the trade itself?


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## dapaterson (21 Feb 2018)

Ditch said:
			
		

> USAF isn’t getting rid of Navigator for quite some time.



Well, somebody has to get the coffee...


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## Zoomie (21 Feb 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The spot on the AWACS, or the trade itself?


Sorry - that reply of mine was incomplete.

The Navigator role on the E-3G is not being phased out as quickly as the NATO fleets.  DRAGON mod is slow and priority is for NATO vice USAF upgrades.


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