# Who has had problems finding a career post-military?



## jzaidi1 (28 May 2008)

All,

Yes I am one of many trying to get into the CF (as Pilot) but in my line of work I deal with a few folks who have gotten out of the CF or are in the process of.  I'd like to get a general consensus on people's personal experiences and what kind of challenges they have faced with regards to seeking civvie employment after life in the CF.

Many of my clients have NO CLUE what a CF member has to offer and often times will overlook someone because they just don't understand how much training/skill is involved.  Often times in my line (IT recruitment) it is easier to define hardcore technical skills but for leadership, teamwork and soft skills - again, my clients have no clue.  Often time the hiring folks are people who have a great deal of formal education, a great deal of business pinache and are under the gun to hire someone who can hit the ground running in their respective jobs/industry.  Me and my team face objections like these everyday.

Someone from RMC or have an undergrad with defined and understandable roles have a tendancy to do better (ie Pilot, Technical Management, Computer Sciences, Business Analytics, etc.).

Again - just wanted to get some personal stories from ex-CF members and find out how they have overcome objections in the civvie world.  If you are dealing with military friendly companies then please share your pleasant experiences.

J


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

Well,

Before joining the military, I was a Network Systems Admin in a company branch in Yellowknife with one other employee. We basicall did everything from Virus scans to setting up business servers, and all PCs and physical networks for 300+ pers.

I joined the military as a sigop, and worked in Wainwright doing the same thing.

I released in Kingston, Unable to find solid work, and NONE, in the IT field(I did land a low lvl tech position for a little bit).
I suppose employers in Ontario really like the certificates saying that you can read a book, as to actual experience.

A little bitter.


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## GAP (28 May 2008)

Sigger said:
			
		

> Well,
> 
> Before joining the military, I was a Network Systems Admin in a company branch in Yellowknife with one other employee. We basicall did everything from Virus scans to setting up business servers, and all PCs and physical networks for 300+ pers.
> 
> ...



Some of it....okay...lots of it....is the pieces of paper, but I found that if you excell at projects with IBM, they (project mgrs)  will go the extra mile and try to find you a position. I was amazed at the unofficial lengths these guys went to for me....

 A HUGE part of the whole IT thingy is AGE....if you are over 30, most companies, unless they know you, just think you're DOS only orientated, even though it plays a part, they just blow you off.


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## jzaidi1 (28 May 2008)

Hey Sigger,

I hear you - I've heard many stories like yours.  Kingston isn't a hotbed of IT activity so I'm not surprised it was difficult to find a civvie position.  

As well, It's a massive mentality shift to go from the brotherhood of the CF to a "watch your back/fend for yourself" civvie street job.  If anyone is thinking of quiting the CF before retirement, my suggestion is don't.  If you are sick of what you are doing in the CF then try the remuster option.  Civvie-street pays more (in general)  but you lose job security, pension benefits and the pride of working in a true "family" environment.  It took close to a decade to figure this game out...and I hate it.  I get physically ill sometimes knowing all those smiles and handshakes/pats-on-back at work are not so genuine and are used to retain staff and keep the company profitable.

Any more stories out there?
J


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

More on that..



			
				Fireball said:
			
		

> As well, It's a massive mentality shift to go from the brotherhood of the CF to a "watch your back/fend for yourself" civvie street job.


Exactly.


			
				Fireball said:
			
		

> If anyone is thinking of quiting the CF before retirement, my suggestion is don't.  If you are sick of what you are doing in the CF then try the remuster option.


See my topic Before you Release



			
				Fireball said:
			
		

> Civvie-street pays more (in general)  but you lose job security, pension benefits and the pride of working in a true "family" environment.  It took close to a decade to figure this game out...and I hate it.  I get physically ill sometimes knowing all those smiles and handshakes/pats-on-back at work are not so genuine and are used to retain staff and keep the company profitable.


How true. Although civvy pay can be better, you are missing out on a whole lot of 'bonuses' in the military, such as stated above.

I will have to be paid a hell of allot more to repeat the mistake of releasing into the civvy world...


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Some of it....okay...lots of it....is the pieces of paper, but I found that if you excell at projects with IBM, they (project mgrs)  will go the extra mile and try to find you a position. I was amazed at the unofficial lengths these guys went to for me....
> 
> A HUGE part of the whole IT thingy is AGE....if you are over 30, most companies, unless they know you, just think you're DOS only orientated, even though it plays a part, they just blow you off.



Define "projects with IBM". How about CISCO, *NIX, NORTELL, VOIP, PYTHON, SOLARIS, etc etc.

I understand that Kingston is not exactly an IT hub, but I have also applied to Toronto and Ottawa.
Oh, and Im 26

I personally cannot wait to fall back in with my brothers and sisters.

Sigger OUT


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## Dee_Dee (28 May 2008)

Fireball said:
			
		

> Hey Sigger,
> 
> I hear you - I've heard many stories like yours.  Kingston isn't a hotbed of IT activity so I'm not surprised it was difficult to find a civvie position.
> 
> ...



I hope I am doing this right but if not then sue me, I'm new...I have been a part of the civvie street jobs since I was fourteen and so I have 16 years expereince in this, so I feel that I have the right to make a point in this thread.  The reason why I applied is to get away from what Sigger and fireball are talking about.  SOme say in the military you are just a number, but you work for any corporation and you are a nothing even if you are high up you are still a nothing.  As we live in a "I" society, the bottom line is sell more do the job of three people but hell no if you want a raise, we also live in a throw away society so these companies at any time can fire you for any reason and there isn't much you can do about it, cause they go the lawyers.  I want to retire from the military if I am so lucky to get in.  At least I would be a part of something great, honorable and that actually is a team not just says they are one.  I used to be a manager and a lowly salesperson and you know what, it didn't f-in matter...I didn't matter, I could kiss their butts everyday, come in early, leave late, sell huge the prior month but threatened with being fired the next.  It's a joke.  So I wholeheartedly agree with you Sigger/Fireball


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

Now, I must stare at a white wall.
Green on green is hard to read


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## sigtech (28 May 2008)

As someone fighting a medical release, it is a scary thought of leaving, considering I already did once and came back. The military is a great place to work come on 25 days of leave + + +.
I am currently in Kingston and it is not a IT hotbead let's be honest unless you get a job on the base or for the Fed Govement in Kingston , Kingston BLOWS for IT work.


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

sigtech said:
			
		

> As someone fighting a medical release, it is a scary thought of leaving, considering I already did once and came back. The military is a great place to work come on 25 days of leave + + +.
> I am currently in Kingston and it is not a IT hotbead let's be honest unless you get a job on the base or for the Fed Govement in Kingston , Kingston BLOWS for IT work.



I would have left it at just *Kingston BLOWS*


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## Dee_Dee (28 May 2008)

have to stare at white wall LMAO Sigger...I'm trying man, gimme a break


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## Sigger (28 May 2008)

how bout
pink
blue is bad  :skull:
yellow
lime green?
Orange on green?

meh

_
*edit to appologize for the unnecessary thread hyjacking comments. Sorry Fireball_


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## GAP (28 May 2008)

Sigger said:
			
		

> Define "projects with IBM". How about CISCO, *NIX, NORTELL, VOIP, PYTHON, SOLARIS, etc etc.
> 
> I understand that Kingston is not exactly an IT hub, but I have also applied to Toronto and Ottawa.
> Oh, and Im 26
> ...



I thought you were older....wow!! Right age bracket, experience, lacking a couple of tickets, but meh....I'm astounded that there isn't much out there.....


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## Greymatters (28 May 2008)

There are several challenges to employment, never mind a career after the CF, but consider the following:

- *Bias:  * The CF background works for you and against you.  Some people and companies have an admiration for former CF members, others want nothing to do with you.  

- *Resume writing, work portfolios, and proof of education/credentials: *  Have it ready before  you get out, while you can still get some level of assistance from CF departments while you are still a member of the CF.  Regarding content, unless you are going into the security field you will need to tone down you're military accomplishments and translate the wording into something a civilian will understand.  Regarding format, learn to write resume and cover letters based on current accepted business practices, not CF methodology. 

- *Transferable skills: * CF members have a massive number of transferable skills that employers want, most of which you don't need a course or paper credential to prove you have.  There are also usually a lot of complimentary comments in your PERs you can use in a resume.  Make sure you identify them in your resumes, CV's and bios.  If your going to boast of your accomplishments, be prepared to back them up with some sort of proof. 

- *Who you know:* Despite all the talk about fair competitions and unbiased hiring methods, its 'who you know' that really counts.  Research from HR practitioners shows that a large number of jobs are gained through knowing someone.  Prior to getting out (for whatever reason), start developing a network of people in the field you are interested in pursuing, and in the geographic area you will retire to, who can gauge your skills and point out opportunities.    

- *Credentials:* Many CF courses and skill groups are not recognized outside of the CF by academic and private companies as legitmate qualifications.  If they don't understand what it is, it doesn't count, which is a similar wall that new immigrants with overseas credentials face.  

- *References:* You need to get at least 2-3 names of people in a supervisory or commanding capacity who are willing to act as either a work or character reference.  If they are getting posted soon, and wont be around when you retire, ask if they will provide a written reference for you.  These will be needed for your first six months after you retire so companies can have someone to phone for background checks (especially important if you are moving to an area as part of final move where no one knows you, or you haven't seen them for ten years).   Pick someone you've known for at least a few years, not your most recent boss.  If you've taken the step of developing a civilian network of people, ask to use them for references, including neighbours who you've known for a while (or at least get along with).  If you've been taking university or college courses, ask if instructors or counsellors will act as references about you're work and study ethics.  Most important, most employers want the references submitted as part of the job application - make sure your references understand this and are okay with it. 

- *Education: * Hiring processes and management are still 'paper-orientated'.  If the opportunity presents itself, take courses that can confirm your previous experience that you have no previous actual credentials for.  This can include project management, computer courses, management skills, etc.  It not only gets you up to date with the most current theories and practices (ideally), but you now get a piece of paper that backs up your experience.  For management positions, many employers also like to see that you are a 'continuous learner' - make sure you've taken at least a course or two every year, even if its the compulsory first aid and/or similar courses.       

- *Have a plan: *  You should be planning for your retirement as much as possible, even if you are currently gainfully employed.  Accidents happen, and at any time you can get injured, and subsequently released, or an opportunity may occur.  Keep a record of all your courses, accomplishments, and responsibilities.  Keep your past PERs, credentials and work history in a safe place.  Figure out where you will live and how much money you will need to earn after you leave the CF that will allow you to pays the bills and lead a comfortable lifestyle.  

Those are the big ones.  Hope this is helpful to those about to leave the CF...


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## OnTrack (28 May 2008)

Greymatters - you have provided excellent advice.  As someone who has made a very successful transition to civilian life after a "long enough" military career many of the points you have brought forward are bang on.

My personal observation is that many military folks (and I was one of them) are wary of life after the mob.  Let's face it, there is a certain, comfortable sense of security while in.  Don't be afraid to make the jump - you will not be disappointed because generally ex-military folks are highly successful because of what they bring to the table including work ethic, sense of duty, leadership skills, passion for the job and some serious get up and go that not everybody has.  

There is a a real opportunity out there right now, particularly in the public service.  The PS is going through a serious transition right now as the mid-90's bubble where they did not hire or made sig cuts goes through the system.


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## jzaidi1 (29 May 2008)

Hi Ontrack,

Perhaps you can let us in on how you were able to make a successful transition to civvie life and more importantly, what you WERE doing in the CF and how it relates to what you ARE doing now.

I'm not trying to take the role of a moderator but I'm hoping to steer this conversation towards a positive action plan for folks like Sigger.

Thanks in advance,
J


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## 40below (29 May 2008)

Sigger said:
			
		

> I released in Kingston, Unable to find solid work, and NONE, in the IT field(I did land a low lvl tech position for a little bit).
> I suppose employers in Ontario really like the certificates saying that you can read a book, as to actual experience.
> 
> A little bitter.



Seen this RSS feed for city jobs? They have a fair number of IT postings, and if nothing else, a $45 an hour sysadmin job might get you through until something better comes along:

http://feeds.feedburner.com/bureaucratca-CityOfKingstonJobsRssFeed


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## Sigger (29 May 2008)

Wicked awesome... but I should be back in the CAF soon.

I wish I found that a year ago.


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