# To be Officer or not to be



## Zarathustra (21 Sep 2005)

Hey guys ! I need advice. 

The story so far: I'm 29 and bored of my office job and I want to change my career or at least take a major break from it. Having a few university degrees I decided to enroll as Infantry Officer. But the recruiting has been slow for me because of my medical (high blood pressure). Now I have all the required documents but I missed the latest officer board and I need to wait the new one in June 2006, and start BMQ in September 2006, if all goes well. I've been in the recruiting process for a year already and waiting another year, without knowing if I'll be accepted or not is kind of depressing. 

OK, so my question is, should I enlist as private instead ? It's much faster I read. How easy would it be to switch to officer later on ? Joining as NCM first would let me know what's life as a private and make me hopefully a better officer later on. On the other hand, though I can do push ups and run, my strongest muscle is clearly my brain. So I think I could be a good officer but always an average soldier. (Though there is probably more than muscle to it.) And let's face it, there's the income issue. My office job pays like twice more than the basic soldier pay. But I'm really bored of this job. 

Anyway, can't make my mind. Anybody has advice ? Basically, is it possible to quickly join as NCM, do 3 years and quickly switch to officer ?


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## GNR (21 Sep 2005)

I commissioned AFTER joining (I was an NCM for 6 years), it was a pain and took over a year to complete.

I would recommend you choose a career based on which one better suites your wants, needs and personality instead of the time-frame.


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## Jed (21 Sep 2005)

Anyway you look at it you are behind the eight ball joining at 29. Basically, everyone you work with is going to have 10 more years of experience (TI) than you and nothing but time and your existing attributes will overcome this. Joining the military should not be about pay. Pay is nice but whether you are an officer or NCM, you will make enough to have a good living. When you pull the pin and retire 25 yrs later you will have an adequate pension.

If you are joining because you want to be a soldier, sailor, airman or whatever and live the life, than sign on as a private. If you want to be a leader or you already believe this is your strength, than stay in the DEO lane.

It is not going to be an easy road whatever way you go, but it can be well worth it, depending on why you choose to join trhe CF.

Just my 2 cents that I would say to my son or daughter in a similar situation.


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## winchable (21 Sep 2005)

I'll be redundant for fun.
At 29 I would I say do not join as a private with sites set on becoming an officer, go one way or the other and plan on sticking with it.


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## mdh (21 Sep 2005)

Zarathustra,

Is waiting a few more months really going to make that much difference? I assume you have resolved your medical issue? If not you will still face the issue of high blood pressure whether NCM or officer.  Moreover you might find that switching streams might entail a further delay in itself - ie redoing paperwork, administrative paper shuffles, and god know what else. If you have a degree and are intensely interested in the infantry then stick with the plan - use the time between now and next June to get fit.

hope that helps,
mdh


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## Zarathustra (25 Sep 2005)

It's incredible how everything seems urgent once you get to 30. You feel that at 35 you're dead. *lol* I read recently "you only know what youth is once you reach 30." That's so true. 

Well, I'll wait. Thanks for the advice guys. I'm gonna order a few more military books I guess. And I'll prepare a plan B, in case this doesn't work as expected...


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## Glorified Ape (29 Sep 2005)

Zarathustra said:
			
		

> Hey guys ! I need advice.
> 
> The story so far: I'm 29 and bored of my office job and I want to change my career or at least take a major break from it. Having a few university degrees I decided to enroll as Infantry Officer. But the recruiting has been slow for me because of my medical (high blood pressure). Now I have all the required documents but I missed the latest officer board and I need to wait the new one in June 2006, and start BMQ in September 2006, if all goes well. I've been in the recruiting process for a year already and waiting another year, without knowing if I'll be accepted or not is kind of depressing.
> 
> ...



As an officer, you're expected to be more fit than the average. I'll wing it and say that if one's fitness was a determinant between being an officer or NCM, going on doctrine, the less fit person should be an NCM. No one wants to follow an officer that can't keep up on a ruck march or think clearly because he's too sacked from activity the troops handle easily. The example is suppost to be above average, not at or below it. That being said, I'm sure there are things you can do to lower your BP and with exercise would likely have no trouble reaching a good standard.

If the office bores you, and I can identify with that, you should think seriously about what it is that officers do. From what I've learned here and in my limited training, even infantry officers spend the majority of their time attending to administrative duties. If you're looking to steer as clear of the office as possible, I would imagine that NCM would be a better choice as they do much more of the bread-and-butter hands-on stuff than the officers do. Officers receive higher pay, but are also given greater responsibilities and accountability. 

Just my opinion, anyone correct me if I'm off base here.


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## George Wallace (29 Sep 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Just my opinion, anyone correct me if I'm off base here.



Oh!   I think you are so off base there.   ;D

First off, everyone is expected to be physically fit, not just the officers.   It may be good that a Cbt Arms officer is a little more fit than his men, but that is a mote point.   You will find unfit or less fit personnel in all ranks, for many reasons.

Education.   Some NCMs have higher educations than their officers.   Many have very technical educations that exceed those of officers.   In many cases, as Glorified Ape mentioned, the officer is purely administrative and residing in a cubical or office, if he is lucky he may have a window.     ;D

Pay.   Officers do make more pay than NCMs when they reach the dizzying heights of Col.   In many cases, Junior officers make less than their men.   Spec Pay has a lot to do with the Technical Trades making more than officers, but even in the Cbt Arms, Cpls through Sgt often make more than Lts and Capts.   

Office or Field?   Officers in the lower ranks usually spend a couple of years doing 'Field Time' in a Cbt Arms unit, and then disappear off to do 'professional' courses and become more tied to an office.   NCMs are the Regiments.   They spend most of their careers in the Field and maintaining the equipment of the Regiment.   They also get sent on 'Career Crses', but will always return to the Regiment.   Officers, on the other hand are more like 'visitors'   coming back once in a while to get a ticket punched and then off to some office somewhere else.   Few will rise into positions of command at the Sqn/Coy/Bty level, and even fewer at the Bn/Regt level.   More options for the NCMs within the Unit.

Physical fitness.   NCMs will have to maintain their physical fitness throughout their careers, and that is usually easier in the Cbt Arms.   Outdoors types probably will gravitate to a Cbt Arms unit.   On the whole, if you look around the street, you will probably find that many of the older guys (and I mean older guys) walking around downtown are probably Ex military.   

As for your High Blood Pressure problem, a Doctor should be able to help you there with medication, but probably more important good suggestions to changes in your diet and lifestyle.   Less stress may be all you need.

In the end, whatever route you deem the best, if you can pass the medical, all the best of luck.


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## Glorified Ape (30 Sep 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oh!   I think you are so off base there.     ;D
> 
> First off, everyone is expected to be physically fit, not just the officers.   It may be good that a Cbt Arms officer is a little more fit than his men, but that is a mote point.   You will find unfit or less fit personnel in all ranks, for many reasons.



I agree completely, notice though that I said "going on doctrine". If the doctrine states that the officer should be in better shape than the majority of his subordinates (save the shwarzeneggers, marathoners, etc), someone whose fitness is sub-par has, judging by doctrine, a larger gap to cross before reaching the acceptable standard if they go officer than if they go NCM. I know there are plenty of overweight, out of shape officers out there, I was just regurgitating what doctrine would dictate. 

That's really all I can do, given that my experience consists of 5-6 months in St. Jean and a few trips to the university liason office. They were long trips though...


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## RangerDave (8 Oct 2005)

What I can tell you, being a DEO who is currently in a Battalion, is to do your research as to what you are getting in to and make your own decision regardless of age. In my first Platoon I had new privates who were in their late twenties. I also went through the training system with other officer candidates who were thirty or more. Do your research and make a decision.


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## Infanteer101 (11 Jan 2006)

Zarathustra, my guess is that Nietzsche has gone only so far in helping you out there b/c  you are already bored hehe. The CF may be good for you but it does have its share of boredom, nevertheless its the best job I have ever had and one that I decided to stick to since component transferring to the officer side of things after a year and a half. As for...

I'll be redundant for fun.
At 29 I would I say do not join as a private with sites set on becoming an officer, go one way or the other and plan on sticking with it.

Roger that! There is a pte I used to know who joined at age 37 and boy is he one bitter mother. Regardless, a single experience does not qualify for bitterness in the NCM side of things occuring at a later age. To me, both have been equally valuable for experience. There is no best way to go in general, but I fathom that whatever keeps you interested in the long run will become "best" for you.

Furthermore, on the fitness issue...consider it a permanent scar that you will bear proudly on yourself just as you will wear your uniform. Sure, there are tanks of every mass and density out there and there are average folks and some who lack the entire concept of fitness. According to a wise WO on my Infantry course "Stay fit, stay young and be able to run and gun at any time and in any enviornment." That advice has carried me well so far and I am certain that it will for the rest of my days.

Cheers!


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## midgetcop (13 Jan 2006)

Zarathustra said:
			
		

> It's incredible how everything seems urgent once you get to 30. You feel that at 35 you're dead. *lol* I read recently "you only know what youth is once you reach 30." That's so true.
> 
> Well, I'll wait. Thanks for the advice guys. I'm gonna order a few more military books I guess. And I'll prepare a plan B, in case this doesn't work as expected...



Man, I feel like I'm in the same boat as you. I'm turning 25 this year and I'm getting somewhat paranoid about my age (I'm still in the application process as well). 

Good luck!


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## raymao (28 Feb 2006)

I am 33 yrs. old and also considering a career with the CF. My difficulty at the moment is also getting into good physical condition, but in high school I was very athletic, played football and rugby and was also on the wrestling team. I returned to school to finish my my Business Education and I intend on putting that knowledge to good use by applying for an administrative position in the CF. My main reason for why I will choose the officer route vs. the NCM course is not out of job excitement, but rather on where I think my skills can best be utilized. I have worked in fancy advertising firms in a suit and tie and I have also owned and operated a landscaping business in the past with the freedom of the outdoors. My most important question that I had to ask myself, is whether I would make a good leader. Throughout school, I have had many fellow classmates suggest that I make for an excellent group leader, and my work experience has also given me the confidence that I can succeed in this role. In regards to the CF, anticipated and expected to be much different than any civi position I have worked in I found the quote below:

"In his 1973 article on "The Art of Leadership," Gen Dextraze indicated that there are two forms of loyalty: loyalty up to one's superiors, and loyalty down to one's subordinates. In case of conflict, loyalty to country prevailed. Leadership also required forsaking personal pleasure when it conflicted with the performance of one's duty. Leaders had to possess knowledge to be efficient in their work. Integrity meant that a leader should refuse to deceive others in any way. Leaders must make decisions, accept responsibility for their success or failure, and not "shake responsibility" onto others. Finally, a leader must be courageous, willing to accept danger knowing that it exists." http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol2/v2c15e.htm


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## Tracker 23A (28 Feb 2006)

George Wallace,



> the officer is purely administrative and residing in a cubical or office, if he is lucky he may have a window.



If you think this statement is accurate I would reassess what you think that officers do.  Having been enlisted and a Sgt. I too did administrative work while in garrison as do officers albeit to a higher level.  When it comes to the field, who do you think truly runs the show?  



> Officers do make more pay than NCMs when they reach the dizzying heights of Col.   In many cases, Junior officers make less than their men.   Spec Pay has a lot to do with the Technical Trades making more than officers, but even in the Cbt Arms, Cpls through Sgt often make more than Lts and Capts.



Are you serious? when I was a Sgt 4, I may have made a little more than the Lieutenant but certaintly not a Captain.  You can't compare the pay of spec trades to that of trades with no specialist pay.  However if you do within the spec trades, the officers do make lmore than their subordinates since 99.99% of officers in those fields are usually educated to the level of a rocket scientist where their subordinates have technical training.  I have two AVN techs as neighbors and both are great guys but they will be the first to tell you that they have no engineering degrees or know how to baffle us in quantum physics.

Regular Force Cpl. (basic)- $48,828
Regular Force Sgt. (basic)- $56,100 gross
Regular Force Lt. (basic has 5 different levels depending on entrance)- it goes from $49,764-$53,184
Regular Force Capt. (basic)- $63,096 gross
Regular Force Lt. Colonel (basic)- $98,892 gross

just a bit off...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/OfficerRegFPayRate_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28



> Officers in the lower ranks usually spend a couple of years doing 'Field Time' in a Cbt Arms unit, and then disappear off to do 'professional' courses and become more tied to an office.   NCMs are the Regiments.   They spend most of their careers in the Field and maintaining the equipment of the Regiment.   They also get sent on 'Career Crses', but will always return to the Regiment.   Officers, on the other hand are more like 'visitors'   coming back once in a while to get a ticket punched and then off to some office somewhere else.   Few will rise into positions of command at the Sqn/Coy/Bty level, and even fewer at the Bn/Regt level.   More options for the NCMs within the Unit.



Having experienced both sides of the fence, I can say I have seen some officers and senior NCO's/WO's come and go in and out of units at a comparitive rate.  Both groups come in and out of operational units (regiments for those armour types) due to training in order to progress and allow a unit to mature in its ranks and bring in "new blood", this process has to happen or we would have units that use wheelchairs to conduct their business.  I think you refer to this as 'punching a ticket'.  

Every officer has a position of command once that individual is commissioned.  As every senior NCO/WO does and anyone given the responsiblity to act as such.  

If you think an officer is a 'visitor' to his/her regiment then I assume you think none deserve to wear their affiliated cap badge?  I will remember that next time visiting J7....

Just what is your understanding of promotion and appointment?  Everyone I know who has stayed the course as an NCO and officer has risen to achieve some sort of leadership position within a unit/regiment.  You make it sound like none have ever made it past the doors into a Coy/Sqn.  Every Lt. that enters a Bn will someday hold a Bn appointment.  You are correct within the context of NCM's having more options of different employment/tasks at units but lets not forget how they are also tied to those units because of it.  Officers move in and out of units more often because there are a limited amount of them as compared to the men who have to make up the numbers, thus the formation of units.  If you compare 1 officer to every 30 men, and moved the men in and out as often as the officers have to in order to keep the CF functioning in those boring but needed staff jobs, the mililtary would fail over night.

Having done the NCM side I have now moved into the officer world.  Without a doubt I loved being a Sgt in an infantry battalion and hanging out with the boys, but I have also gained a new respect for officers who do not get understood by those who choose to be ignorant of their sacrifices they make everyday for their men who often never hear of it.


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## George Wallace (28 Feb 2006)

Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> > the officer is purely administrative and residing in a cubical or office, if he is lucky he may have a window.
> 
> 
> If you think this statement is accurate I would reassess what you think that officers do.  Having been enlisted and a Sgt. I too did administrative work while in garrison as do officers albeit to a higher level.  When it comes to the field, who do you think truly runs the show?


 
Thank you for your selective editing of my quote:





> In many cases, as Glorified Ape mentioned, the officer is purely administrative and residing in a cubical or office, if he is lucky he may have a window.     ;D


 Please note  the words: "In many cases" and the smilie at the end.



			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> > Officers do make more pay than NCMs when they reach the dizzying heights of Col.   In many cases, Junior officers make less than their men.   Spec Pay has a lot to do with the Technical Trades making more  than officers, but even in the Cbt Arms, Cpls through Sgt often make more than Lts and Capts.
> 
> 
> Are you serious? when I was a Sgt 4, I may have made a little more than the Lieutenant but certaintly not a Captain.  You can't compare the pay of spec trades to that of trades with no specialist pay.  However if you do within the spec trades, the officers do make lmore than their subordinates since 99.99% of officers in those fields are usually educated to the level of a rocket scientist where their subordinates have technical training.  I have two AVN techs as neighbors and both are great guys but they will be the first to tell you that they have no engineering degrees or know how to baffle us in quantum physics.



So?  Today as a Sgt 4 you would make $4865/month.  Your Lt(A (ROTP)) would make $4154 per month in his/her first year.  So as a Sgt you were indeed making more than your officer, as was your Cpl 2 at $4188, and all your MCpls ranging from $4239 to $4475.  Spec pay would have raised their pay even higher, with a MCpl Spec 1 ranging between $4554 to $4865 per month.  Spec 2 is even higher.  There are no Spec Pay Levels for Officers (Cbt Arms), per say.  There are higher levels for Pilots and Medical and Dental Officers.



			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> Regular Force Cpl. (basic)- $48,828
> Regular Force Sgt. (basic)- $56,100 gross
> Regular Force Lt. (basic has 5 different levels depending on entrance)- it goes from $49,764-$53,184
> Regular Force Capt. (basic)- $63,096 gross
> ...


This link will give you access to all the Pay Scales:

Official pay rates for both Officers and NCMs have been updated on the Internet.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=3

Depending on how you want to interpretate them, you can use these statistics to bend an argument to suit your needs.  I will stand by my general statement, that usually the people in a Pl or Tp are making more than their new Pl or Tp Offr.  



			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> > Officers in the lower ranks usually spend a couple of years doing 'Field Time' in a Cbt Arms unit, and then disappear off to do 'professional' courses and become more tied to an office.   NCMs are the Regiments.   They spend most of their careers in the Field and maintaining the equipment of the Regiment.   They also get sent on 'Career Crses', but will always return to the Regiment.   Officers, on the other hand are more like 'visitors'   coming back once in a while to get a ticket punched and then off to some office somewhere else.   Few will rise into positions of command at the Sqn/Coy/Bty level, and even fewer at the Bn/Regt level.   More options for the NCMs within the Unit.
> 
> 
> Having experienced both sides of the fence, I can say I have seen some officers and senior NCO's/WO's come and go in and out of units at a comparitive rate.  Both groups come in and out of operational units (regiments for those armour types) due to training in order to progress and allow a unit to mature in its ranks and bring in "new blood", this process has to happen or we would have units that use wheelchairs to conduct their business.  I think you refer to this as 'punching a ticket'.


 I was saying that the Troops stay in the Unit a lot longer than the young officers.  A NCM will be in a Cbt Arms Unit from the time he arrives, usually until he has reached the rank of Sgt or WO, which should equate to approximately six to ten years, before being posted out of the Unit to a School or ERE position.  Young officers arrive a the Unit and usually within four or five years are posted out to a School or ERE position.  They may never return to the Unit, unless they have the abilities identified to fill Command positions.



			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> If you think an officer is a 'visitor' to his/her regiment then I assume you think none deserve to wear their affiliated cap badge?  I will remember that next time visiting J7....


As many may only spend four or five years actually in a Unit, I will say Yes.




			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> Just what is your understanding of promotion and appointment?  Everyone I know who has stayed the course as an NCO and officer has risen to achieve some sort of leadership position within a unit/regiment.  You make it sound like none have ever made it past the doors into a Coy/Sqn.  Every Lt. that enters a Bn will someday hold a Bn appointment.  You are correct within the context of NCM's having more options of different employment/tasks at units but lets not forget how they are also tied to those units because of it.  Officers move in and out of units more often because there are a limited amount of them as compared to the men who have to make up the numbers, thus the formation of units.  If you compare 1 officer to every 30 men, and moved the men in and out as often as the officers have to in order to keep the CF functioning in those boring but needed staff jobs, the mililtary would fail over night.


I know that they will all see command of a Platoon or Troop, but not all will see the chance to command a Coy or Sqn, and even fewer will go on to command a Bn or Regt.




			
				Tracker 23A said:
			
		

> Having done the NCM side I have now moved into the officer world.  Without a doubt I loved being a Sgt in an infantry battalion and hanging out with the boys, but I have also gained a new respect for officers who do not get understood by those who choose to be ignorant of their sacrifices they make everyday for their men who often never hear of it.


 On another subject, but I do believe that the route you have taken is the best for the Forces.  You, and your peers who have gone the same route, who have gained the experience as NCMs bring a lot to the leadership of the CF.  I am of the opinion that we should be recruiting our officers from graduates of our Leadership Courses (both Junior NCO and Senior NCO levels) and offering them the positions at RMC to further their educations and careers.  To me they are already a proven product of the CF and would save a few dollars in the RMC System (not needing to learn drill and other Basic Military Skills, giving more time for 'Education').  Sorry....but we have threads on this already.


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## Tracker 23A (28 Feb 2006)

You must have a lot of time on your hands, next topic.


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## Sig_Des (28 Feb 2006)

Be aware that the wait time for recruitment can be long for either NCM or Officer.

Mine took almost 2 years, and that was as an NCM.

Also, the fact that you have degrees, doesn't necessarily mean that you _must_ become an officer.

There's a young Cpl in my unit who hapens to have a Master's specializing in antennae theory, and is currently working on a PHD, and he outsmarts ANYONE in the regiment as far as antennae issues.

Do what is best suited to you, and where you feel you will be of best interest to the forces.


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## MdB (28 Feb 2006)

I also feel like an officer in a unit commanding position (especially as Pl./Coy leader) has to perform equal or above the average of troops fitness under him. On top of that, he has to perform intellectually which under major physical constraints (ie. sleep deprivation, situation awareness in Ops, physical challenges, etc). So, it's like to me an officer is a good soldier and a good leader (commanding, planing, evaluating, etc).

To answer to Zarathustra, I'd go officer all the way (yeah, that's what I do anyway ). I'm almost 28, have been waiting the past year to get back on the recruiting process. I know what you feel.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am of the opinion that we should be recruiting our officers from graduates of our Leadership Courses (both Junior NCO and Senior NCO levels) and offering them the positions at RMC to further their educations and careers.  To me they are already a proven product of the CF and would save a few dollars in the RMC System (not needing to learn drill and other Basic Military Skills, giving more time for 'Education').  Sorry....but we have threads on this already.



The French Armed forces are recruiting officers from both the civil side and military ranks (in a proportion of 50/50). Which could be a great idea to implement.


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## bbbb (17 Mar 2006)

Those people are all rich!!! A Col makes over $100 grand a year? An Ocdt at RMC makes $15 GRAND a year? That makes me swear obscenities you know. Oh, I'm really holding it in now, an Ocdt at RMC makes $60,000 in his/her 4 year education at RMC. May the gods forgive us for making this kind of money for doing no work. Oops, I really shouldn't have said that last bit but I'm sure a lot of you guessed that about RMC anyway.

As for the original question now that I've absorbed how much Officer-Cadets make, choose the officer route, it's much more direct and exposes you to life as an officer early on instead of accumulating time as an NCM and specializing in a trade.


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