# I am going to college or university,what major 's so demened in the force?



## raid168 (15 Nov 2009)

I have some knowledge with computer programming, but they don't really need it in the army,

From I heard, they need Electrical Engineering a lot.

is there any major related to my background knowledge, and still hot in army?

thank you


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2009)

English Major?


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## George Wallace (15 Nov 2009)

There are no "Major's" offered by Canadian Universities or Colleges demeaned by the CF.  However, a Degree in Basket Weaving from a foreign university may be demeaned.

There are Trades in the CF that would be open to a person with a Degree or Diploma in Computer Sciences.  There are other Trades that would highly value the courses required to achieve those certifications.  The question lies in what do you really want to do with them, or with your life (as that doesn't necessarily have to match what your schooling may have been)?


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## Greymatters (15 Nov 2009)

raid168 said:
			
		

> I have some knowledge with computer programming, but they don't really need it in the army



Im curious as to why you might think that - was it something someone told you?


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## SeanNewman (15 Nov 2009)

If you are looking at joining the forces after school, then there are two pieces of advice I wish I'd had:

1.  Ask about the ROTP career part at your recruiting centre.  They will pay for your school and a salary.

2.  If that route is not open, go to University instead of College.  Even if it's costs more, the CF will pay you far more money having a degree than a diploma (which to them is the same as having nothing).  Plus, while it may seem far away now, you'll make Major far faster with a degree than not, so over the course of your career you'll probably make $100,000+ more having a degree.


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## jeffb (15 Nov 2009)

raid168 said:
			
		

> I have some knowledge with computer programming, but they don't really need it in the army,



A good friend of mine has  a college diploma in Programing and a BA in English. He is currently in training to become an Artillery Officer. 

If the ROTP route is not open, take a look at joining the reserves while you are in school. It's a great way for you to make some money while in school, will give you  a good understanding of what you want to do in the CF once you graduate and will greatly accelerate your career. You'll also be building time towards your pension!  

The other aspect to consider is what you want to do in the CF. If you want to be an officer you will need a degree at some point. If you want to be an NCM then a degree or a diploma is an asset although not necessarily required depending on the trade you want. There are a ton of threads on the difference between what officers and NCM's do in the CF if you want more information on this. 

Best of luck.


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## Greymatters (16 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> 2.  If that route is not open, go to University instead of College.  Even if it's costs more, the CF will pay you far more money having a degree than a diploma (which to them is the same as having nothing).  Plus, while it may seem far away now, you'll make Major far faster with a degree than not, so over the course of your career you'll probably make $100,000+ more having a degree.



Choosing post-secondary education should be basd on personal interest and employment opportunities, not how much the CF will pay you afterwards - it presumes that (a) the person will still be intereted in joining the CF after completing their education and (b) that you will pass the entrance process and subsequent courses!


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## FDO (17 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> the CF will pay you far more money having a degree than a diploma (which to them is the same as having nothing).



Not sure how you figure that having a diploma means nothing to us. We will actually look at enroling an applicant as "semi-skilled with a diploma depending on what it's for. Yes it's an NCM position but it does mean something to us. It could mean promotion to Cpl/LS faster, more money in the form of Spec pay. I think you need to check your notes and stop giving out BS info to prospective applicants. Leave the info sesions to those of us actually in the info business. 

I believe the term is "Stay in your Lane"


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Nov 2009)




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## SeanNewman (18 Nov 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> Not sure how you figure that having a diploma means nothing to us. We will actually look at enroling an applicant as "semi-skilled with a diploma depending on what it's for. Yes it's an NCM position but it does mean something to us. It could mean promotion to Cpl/LS faster, more money in the form of Spec pay. I think you need to check your notes and stop giving out BS info to prospective applicants. Leave the info sesions to those of us actually in the info business.
> 
> I believe the term is "Stay in your Lane"



I completely disagree with you on both the officer and NCM lanes.  I will not be so bold as to say that there has never been a case when a diploma has mattered, I know that in the vast majority of cases it does not.

For an officer, having a diploma gets you a big fat zero points on the merit boards.  Either you have a degree (or more) or you have nothing.  In the case of a tie in points, I can pretty much assure you that they would look at who has performed better in their jobs.

For NCMs, last time I checked it was time in and trade qualifications that got you promoted to Cpl, and then the addition of other courses like PLQ and time in that got you promoted to MCpl.  Ditto for 3A and 3B.


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## aesop081 (18 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I completely disagree with you



Shocking......... :




> .....For NCMs, last time I checked.....



Check again......


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## SeanNewman (18 Nov 2009)

Are you seriously stating that in an average unit that a soldier with a diploma is going to advance years ahead of his peers?

While I fully respect how important Privates and Corporals are (they are in fact why leaders exist, not the other way around), their promotion "boards" are not exactly the CLS chairing a meeting with the Area Commanders saying "Well I don't know if we can promote Private Johnson...I mean yes he topped DP1 and Basic Recce, but he doesn't have a diploma...I don't know..."


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## aesop081 (18 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Are you seriously stating that in an average unit that a soldier with a diploma is going to advance years ahead of his peers?



See many MP privates walking around ?

Telling me you havent seen any trades out there that have "instant corporals" ?

you said :



> For NCMs, last time I checked it was time in and trade qualifications that got you promoted to Cpl,



That is clearly not true in all cases. Have a good evening.


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## Occam (18 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I completely disagree with you on both the officer and NCM lanes.  I will not be so bold as to say that there has never been a case when a diploma has mattered, I know that in the vast majority of cases it does not.
> 
> For an officer, having a diploma gets you a big fat zero points on the merit boards.  Either you have a degree (or more) or you have nothing.  In the case of a tie in points, I can pretty much assure you that they would look at who has performed better in their jobs.



That's not surprising, given that the goal is to have a fully degreed officer corps in the CF.  



> For NCMs, last time I checked it was time in and trade qualifications that got you promoted to Cpl, and then the addition of other courses like PLQ and time in that got you promoted to MCpl.  Ditto for 3A and 3B.



I can pretty much assure you that someone bearing a two-year diploma in Electronics Engineering Technology from a community college or CEGEP will _probably_ be granted conditional QL5 and Acting Cpl or LS upon graduation of BMQ if they enrol in the LCIS Tech, ATIS Tech, NE Tech (A), NE Tech (T) or NE Tech (C) trades.  They will also _probably_ be given a $20,000 recruiting allowance.  There are other trades where similar offers are made to semi-skilled college grads.

Coming in as a Cpl or LS puts you four years ahead of your CF-trained counterparts, and starts the two-year clock for eligibility for promotion to MCpl or MS.  Completing PLQ can be done as an afterthought once one gets promoted to MCpl or MS.

Bottom line is that diplomas most definitely do matter in all sorts of places in the NCM world.  There are even points awarded at the national level PER boards for post-secondary education.

Even in the extreme case of non-specialist pay category MOSIDs, such as the combat arms - if you have two similarly-scored Cpl infantry soldiers, and one has a community college diploma (in basket weaving, even!) and the other does not have a diploma, the diploma holder will get the nod because of the points for post-secondary education.  I've yet to see a merit board scoring matrix that does not have a weighted category for post-secondary education.


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## dapaterson (18 Nov 2009)

Occam said:
			
		

> Coming in as a Cpl or LS puts you four years ahead of your CF-trained counterparts, and starts the two-year clock for eligibility for promotion to MCpl or MS.  Completing PLQ can be done as an afterthought once one gets promoted to MCpl or MS.



Two minor corrections:

First, MS/MCpl is an appointment, not a rank.

Second, appointment to MS/MCpl without PLQ is an acting/lacking rank; course failure or inability to complete the course within a specified time frame (2 years? I think) means you revert to LS/Cpl.


Other than that, bang on.


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## Occam (18 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> First, MS/MCpl is an appointment, not a rank.



I knew someone was going to pick me up on that, although my money was on Eye In The Sky.   



> Second, appointment to MS/MCpl without PLQ is an acting/lacking rank; course failure or inability to complete the course within a specified time frame (2 years? I think) means you revert to LS/Cpl.



Agreed, but my intent was only to point out that promotion appointment doesn't hinge on the PLQ; it can be completed later.


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## George Wallace (19 Nov 2009)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Are you seriously stating that in an average unit that a soldier with a diploma is going to advance years ahead of his peers?
> 
> While I fully respect how important Privates and Corporals are (they are in fact why leaders exist, not the other way around), their promotion "boards" are not exactly the CLS chairing a meeting with the Area Commanders saying "Well I don't know if we can promote Private Johnson...I mean yes he topped DP1 and Basic Recce, but he doesn't have a diploma...I don't know..."




Wow!


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## PanaEng (19 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> > Quote from: Occam on Yesterday at 21:00:09
> >
> > Coming in as a Cpl or LS puts you four years ahead of your CF-trained counterparts, and starts the two-year clock for eligibility for promotion to MCpl or MS.  Completing PLQ can be done as an afterthought once one gets promoted to MCpl or MS.
> 
> ...



Regardless of what we call it, TBS considers any advancement to a higher pay scale a promotion. So calling the appointment to MCpl a promotion is still mostly correct.

 ;D   ... it's splitting hairs day!

cheers,
Frank


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## dapaterson (19 Nov 2009)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Two minor corrections:
> 
> First, MS/MCpl is an appointment, not a rank.
> 
> ...



It's important to understand this split hair - especially if marched in sans headdress  (a summary trial / court martial, if reducing a MCpl in rank, reduces them to Pte, not Cpl).  And in the instance described (being an A/L MS/MCpl) it's even more important - as not getting the PLQ qual within the designated timeframe means you lose the appointment.


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## Hogie (19 Nov 2009)

A diploma can and will get you benefits upon enrolment depending on the trade and the diploma.  In a recent case I was involved in, it got a young man provisional QL5/Cpl with backpay upon graduation from BMQ/fat signing bonus due to his particular diploma/trade.  Certainly made a difference to him!!


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## kincanucks (19 Nov 2009)

Hogie said:
			
		

> A diploma can and will get you benefits upon enrolment depending on the trade and the diploma.  In a recent case I was involved in, it got a young man provisional QL5/Cpl with backpay upon graduation from BMQ/fat signing bonus due to his particular diploma/trade.  Certainly made a difference to him!!



Really?  Ever try reading a thread before posting?


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## Danjanou (19 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's important to understand this split hair - especially if marched in sans headdress  (a summary trial / court martial, if reducing a MCpl in rank, reduces them to Pte, not Cpl).



Yup seen that, and the individual concerned was really really surprised to say the least.


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## FDO (19 Nov 2009)

Just to stir the pot a little more you can enrol as an Officer in the CF WIThOUT a degree.

Standing by for fall of shot. Go!!


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## blacktriangle (19 Nov 2009)

It's not always a bad idea to start in college. Most colleges have transfer agreements in place with universities that will allow you to transfer some of your credits upon graduation, thus allowing you to complete a degree faster. For example, you can do the bridging program at UOIT and earn a commerce degree in only 2.5 years. Many universities offer part time/online programs that you can complete while serving. 

Most transfer agreements are not a bad deal financially, since tuition in college is often 50% cheaper than in university.


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## Occam (19 Nov 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Just a shot in the dark from me, FDO.
> There's no mention of a degree requirement:
> http://www.forces.ca/html/marinesystemsengineeringofficer_reg_en.aspx



"You will be enrolled at the rank of Naval Cadet (NCdt). On completion of a degree and Basic Officer Training, you will be commissioned as an Acting Sub-Lieutenant (ASLt)."


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## Occam (19 Nov 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> Just to stir the pot a little more you can enrol as an Officer in the CF WIThOUT a degree.
> 
> Standing by for fall of shot. Go!!



Naval Reserves, I believe.........possibly other elements?


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## brihard (19 Nov 2009)

FDO said:
			
		

> Just to stir the pot a little more you can enrol as an Officer in the CF WIThOUT a degree.
> 
> Standing by for fall of shot. Go!!



I'll take CEOTP for four hundred, Alex?


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## FDO (19 Nov 2009)

Actually it's Reg Force. You enrol as an OCdt and are promoted as you would be if you had a degree. Look up CEOTP. Continueing Education Officer Training Plan. The requirment is that you complete your degree on your own time before your VIE is complete. You'd be surprised how many officer occupations this applies to.


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## jeffb (19 Nov 2009)

Can't you be CFR'd without a degree as well?


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## gcclarke (19 Nov 2009)

I would hardly compare people who wish to become Officers after having spent their time as NCMs until they reached the requisite rank to those who want to enrol as officers off the bat with no recognizable qualifications beforehand.


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## jeffb (19 Nov 2009)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I would hardly compare people who wish to become Officers after having spent their time as NCMs until they reached the requisite rank to those who want to enrol as officers off the bat with no recognizable qualifications beforehand.



I wasn't. I was simply trying to point out that there is more then one road to becoming an Officer should one choose to pursue that route.


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## TangoTwoBravo (19 Nov 2009)

A double major in Theatre and World Languages would make you the perfect weapon.


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## dapaterson (20 Nov 2009)

I believe you meant to say "the perfect tool".


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## PPCLI Guy (27 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Are you seriously stating that in an average unit that a soldier with a diploma is going to advance years ahead of his peers?



Points are awarded on NCM merit boards for education - and so, yes, _ceteris parabus_, they will advance faster.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Apr 2010)

I am a Capt with 10 years in (5 years at RMC) and I make 6800$ a month base salary.  You'd have to be a MWO with Spec Pay 2 or a CWO without spec pay to make as much as I do.  If you think you can make MWO.CWO within 10 years (some DEOs make what I do in 4 years), then going the NCM route will be financially beneficial.  Otherwise, if money is a factor for you, going the Officer route will provide you with more money in the long run.


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## dangerboy (27 Apr 2010)

I can almost guarantee that you will not make MWO in 10 years no mater how checked out you are, and most certainly not CWO.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Apr 2010)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I can almost guarantee that you will not make MWO in 10 years no mater how checked out you are, and most certainly not CWO unless you are a LCIS Tech.



Had to add that, as I recalled a C & E branch brief I attended where the LCIS Tech Career Mangler was asked  "what are the requirements to make Sgt, has it changed any?" and he replied with...

"do ya got a pulse?"

 ;D


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## SeanNewman (27 Apr 2010)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Points are awarded on NCM merit boards for education - and so, yes, _ceteris parabus_, they will advance faster.



Ack Sir but you're talking way up in the ranks (~WO), and even then I would challenge that there are other factors that come into play far more than whether or not someone has a degree.

Granted I have not sat on merit boards for future RSMs, but even at the MWO level (and I have just asked several here at work) how many MWOs they knew who had a formal degree in the Infantry, a common answer was 10% max.

I am not challenging what you are saying that technically an NCM gets points for it, but if they are being groomed for a certain rank/position, there are just too many other things that will help them before that (personality, fitness, topping courses, tour performance, etc).


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Ack  but you're talking way up in the ranks (~WO), and even then I would challenge that there are other factors that come into play far more than whether or not someone has a degree.



I have been fortunate enough to sit on a few central merit boards.  Points for education apply on all NCM boards from Cpl to CWO.  Assuming that two members have equal performance and potential (which is quite often the case at the top end of the merit list), then the points for community college will end up be the deciding factor.  OPMEs are often a deciding factor as well....


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## gcclarke (28 Apr 2010)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have been fortunate enough to sit on a few central merit boards.  Points for education apply on all NCM boards from Cpl to CWO.  Assuming that two members have equal performance and potential (which is quite often the case at the top end of the merit list), then the points for community college will end up be the deciding factor.  OPMEs are often a deciding factor as well....



When this is the case, are those all lumped into the "Professional Development" points that always seem to be in the Career Manager's briefs?


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## SeanNewman (28 Apr 2010)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> ...then the points for community college will end up be the deciding factor...



Absolutely agreed in the case of "All other factors being equal...".

As a general trend though, on the NCM side it would be hard to state that those 2-3 years in a post-secondary system outside of the Army would have helped a soldier more progression-wise than being in the Army for those 2 years and getting more Army qualifications.

If two 18-year-olds have a choice and one joins and the other goes to community college for two years, when they turn 21 one of them will be trade qualified and have two years in a unit getting Army courses and experience, and the other will have a diploma and be getting out of battleschool.

If those two soldiers are equally motivated, I can not ever see the second one catching the first one as an NCM.

The officer world of course is completely different, even with a four-year degree.  Those two at 18 take their different paths, and the first will be trade qualified with two years platoon command experience before the first even graduates, but it is almost guaranteed that the second one will get promoted to Major first (or if not they will be very close), and then every promotion after that will see the one with a degree go up higher and higher.  

This isn't even mentioning that the one with the degree will make tens of thousands more money as an OCdt, 2Lt, and Lt, which is not the case with NCMs.


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## gcclarke (28 Apr 2010)

Ahhh but it's not "all factors being equal". It's points to be earned. Assuming that the answer to my previous question is yes, this could be very important, depending upon the trade. Looking at the CM brief for the NETs, as an example, the "Professional Development" component on the selection board is worth 7% for a LS, 5% for MS - PO1, and 4% for a CPO2. 
By comparison, both fluency in a second official language and physical fitness can each only earn you maximum of 2% each. Getting an "immediate" recommendation from your CO on your PER is worth 3% (For all ranks). 
Yes, all things being equal, post-secondary education will certainly be the deciding factor. However, it certainly seems to me that it can also be the deciding factor when all other things are not equal. 

Unfortunately, the INFMN CM brief didn't go into any more detail about how they break down the 38 points allocated to the "Potential" section. However, I certainly suspect that it can make a large difference.

Anyways, the question isn't always coming from a 17 year old trying to figure out the best way to get promoted quickly. Often it's coming from someone who already has some post-secondary education, and is trying to figure out if that will help them at all. Or perhaps it's from someone who's already in, isn't getting promoted as quickly as they would like, and is attempting to figure out whether or not taking some night classes would help them.


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## SeanNewman (28 Apr 2010)

Understood on all accounts and I am not trying to talk anyone out of getting a formal education.

The trend seems to be though that good performance/experience at work is what will get your name moved up the magnet board more than educational points (in the big picture).  Yes you can quote CM "scores", but at the end of the day the CoC and the Regiment is going to select those they want for certain ranks/positions and what I am saying is that education more often than not will not be a factor (as seen by the percentage of WOs/MWOs who have a degree).  They are where they are (for the most part) due to excellent work performance and being chosen.


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