# Are Fire Fighters Over-rated? Split From- Are vets benefits "overly generous"? (split from CDS to CT



## peterpan (8 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> I've 'transitioned' from Army to Fire, and I can confirm that Police/EMS/Fire are subject to provincial WCB/WSIB for work related injuries. Ya know, the same WSIB/WCB that Disability Awards are compared to and found to be lacking?
> 
> Also, the emergency services have an attitude of 'safety first' and 'everyone goes home'. Quite a world apart from the 'some of us won't be coming home' that you hear overseas. Some pedestal.




Although, not to mention that Fire departments make 100,000 plus a year working roughly 80 of those days per year and working full time construction jobs on the side,
 low balling the other competitors out there because they have a full tme salary and can afford to cut corners. That seems pretty lucrative as well!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Oct 2013)

peterpan said:
			
		

> Although, not to mention that Fire departments make 100,000 plus a year working roughly 80 of those days per year and working full time construction jobs on the side,
> low balling the other competitors out there because they have a full tme salary and can afford to cut corners. That seems pretty lucrative as well!



Lets not take this off-topic but they still do put in full time hours at their job.......in 24 increments hence leaving "days" off. I work 12 hour shifts, hence I have more "days off" than someone working 8 but I still work the same number of hours.


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## peterpan (8 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Lets not take this off-topic but they still do put in full time hours at their job.......in 24 increments hence leaving "days" off. I work 12 hour shifts, hence I have more "days off" than someone working 8 but I still work the same number of hours.


Everyone loves firefighters. They save lives. They are strong and competent. They look good on calendars. People are always happy when they show up.

But municipalities do not love firefighters. Across Canada, towns and cities are getting hosed by the skyrocketing costs of their fire departments. Thanks to arbitration settlements, your firefighters are the best paid (and possibly the most underworked) guys in town. Firefighters have been getting raises that are twice as high what other public sector workers have been getting, at a time when municipalities are strapped for funds and raises are just a memory for most of us...............................There’s no good reason for salaries to go up so much, argues John Saunders, a consultant with Hicks Morley who advises dozens of municipalities. Firefighting is an extremely desirable job, and vacancies are scarce because people rarely quit. Last year, for example, there were more than 500 applicants for 20 firefighting jobs in the Ontario communities of Cambridge, Kitchener and Waterloo. In Cambridge, a first-class firefighter earns up to $99,397 a year, plus benefits and overtime. Yet despite the high demand for their jobs, firefighters get “retention” payments for not quitting. It’s long past time to roll back firefighting costs, as cities across the United States have been forced to do. But in Canada, costs continue to escalate as unions demand even better benefits, shorter work weeks and highly desirable 24-hour shifts. Firefighters love 24-hour shifts because it gives them plenty of time off for their other jobs. Theoretically, they’re required to work seven or eight of these shifts in a 28-day period, but workers with plenty of seniority can wind up working just five or six shifts, according to Mr. Saunders. Some critics refer to the 24-hour arrangement as “a well-paid part-time job.” (As for how it’s possible to work 24 hours in a row, the answer is “down time.”)

Not even the smallest effort to control costs goes unchallenged. In Windsor, the union grieved a decision to pull a fire truck out of service in 2008, saying that the administration had promised to leave it in service until the new contract was settled, which still hasn’t happened. The arbitrator sided with the union and told the city to cough up $381,000 in theoretically lost overtime – $1,328 for each member of the fire department. Meanwhile, in Toronto, the firefighters’ union continues its endless war against Emergency Medical Services, claiming that a decision to stop dispatching million-dollar pumpers to lower-level 911 calls puts lives at risk. A consultants’ report said that a merger of fire and EMS could save the city significant money – but the tribal warfare is so bitter that it will never happen.

GLOABE AND MAIL Aug. 2013
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

Not trying to start a fight, but compared to some other places of employment, the military isn't soo hot (excuse the pun) Plus when the military are asked to saty late/come in early, wheres are overtime?


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## mariomike (8 Oct 2013)

peterpan said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, in Toronto, the firefighters’ union continues its endless war against Emergency Medical Services, claiming that a decision to stop dispatching million-dollar pumpers to lower-level 911 calls puts lives at risk. A consultants’ report said that a merger of fire and EMS could save the city significant money – but the tribal warfare is so bitter that it will never happen.



The highlighted part was discussed in the Emergency Services forum:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/111084.0.html


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Oct 2013)

I sense a topic split coming.

Not going to disagree with a word you said.......just wanted to point out the "hours" thing.
Not everyone loves FF's, heard a story just yesterday actually about one of those cities you mentioned where the local police "love" them so much they will sound the car siren everytime they drive by the station just to try and wake them up. I guess a little animosity has built up with the "just show up, look awesome, leave and go back to bed" attitude while the cops spend the night investigating.........awake.

Just a second hand story from a coworker who plays hockey with a bunch of them so I can't vouch 100% for authenticity.....


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## The Bread Guy (8 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> .... Not everyone loves FF's ....


I've also heard second-hand stories from "competitors" saying some fire services will send, say, two pumpers to an accident scene and count that as two calls.

If true as reported, you'd think fire safety and fire code progress is causing fewer fire-related calls coming in or something ....

That said, some progress is being made - here in Thunder Bay, some EMS sub-stations are being built as add-ons to fire stations.  Mind you, I don't know if there are doors connecting the two spaces, but baby steps.


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## peterpan (8 Oct 2013)

And don't get me wrong, I love FF, Police and EMS. and have some friends that work in all three jobs, very comendable and hard jobs to do. I was just making a point that a lot of ppl like to point the fingers at the Military  and talk about "how good" we have it, when thats not always the case.


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## Towards_the_gap (8 Oct 2013)

peterpan said:
			
		

> And don't get me wrong, I love FF, Police and EMS. and have some friends that work in all three jobs, very comendable and hard jobs to do. I was just making a point that a lot of ppl like to point the fingers at the Military  and talk about "how good" we have it, when thats not always the case.
> [/quote
> 
> But it's fine if you do it the other way to FF's?


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## Journeyman (8 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> But it's fine if you do it the other way to FF's?


Note that even Bruce Monkhouse, who _tends_ to be a pretty vocal supporter of unions, posted suggestions that the firefighters may have it pretty cushy, to the point of actively alienating fellow unionized services.  His sharing negative aspects should tell you something.  Perhaps if you'd put more effort into considering what had been posted than on your indignation you may have caught that.


This is clearly a tangent from the topic of veterans' benefits.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Oct 2013)

..and I'll split it off when I get home. [my wifi stick is weak where I am right now]

Just a point to 'peterpan' about the Unions "demanding".  That's their job,...to demand and try and make things better, easier, more lucrative for their members.
I pay my union to try and make things better for me the same way you might hire a financial planner to make your retirement better.

You do know management sets the rules and if they're followed correctly a Union can't do much but go back to the member's and say "whoop's, sorry"?
Unions "set" no management rules.............


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## Towards_the_gap (9 Oct 2013)

I don't want to derail the thread any further, just want to say that not all of us FF's drive big new trucks and work half-rate construction jobs and take food from other workers tables and sleep all the time. My wife would laugh at the implication that we are rolling in money (we're not).

There is a silent majority who realise the benefits and compensation we receive demands 110% performance of our jobs and we try to go above and beyond that what is expected of us.

But back on thread..

What is the general thoughts on the quote by Robert Borden on the eve of Vimy? Does it constitute a 'verbal contract' contract of sorts. thereby binding upon the honour of the crown?

Namely this:

_“You can go into this action feeling assured of this, and as the head of the government I give you this assurance: That you need not fear that the government and the country will fail to show just appreciation of your service to the country and Empire in what you are about to do and what you have already done.

“The government and the country will consider it their first duty to see that a proper appreciation of your effort and of your courage is brought to the notice of people at home that no man, whether he goes back or whether he remains in Flanders, will have just cause to reproach the government for having broken faith with the men who won and the men who died.”_


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## The Bread Guy (9 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> What is the general thoughts on the quote by Robert Borden on the eve of Vimy? Does it constitute a 'verbal contract' contract of sorts. thereby binding upon the honour of the crown? ....


1)  It would be nice to see a similar quote, that clearly expressed, by any politician since Borden.
2)  That said, how binding are such statements when the Department of Justice says different?


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## Towards_the_gap (9 Oct 2013)

It's a shame really. I was lucky enough to return home in one piece, with only a minor battle injury in 11 years combined service.

Yet I can't help but feel that the government would gladly wipe it's ass with my service. And sadly it makes me a little sick to see all those yellow ribbons now on the streets of Ottawa.

I can only imagine how more seriously injured and disabled veterans must feel.


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## Navy_Pete (9 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Never asked you for any,...I know, and knew, the score when I started.
> I guess you happened to miss the post about all the workplace safety regs you folks are covered under.



Sure, when I joined, if I got hurt, there was a system in place to provide a lifelong pension so I was covered, as WSB, WCIB etc does not apply to us.  Then the govt of the day moved the goalposts and called it progress.

I've dealt with WCIB; they don't summarily reject all claims the first (and sometimes second) go around as a matter of practice.  VAC does this routinely and also has non medical personnel overrule doctors diagnosis (ie you showed up to basic with a torn meniscus and didn't report it until week 10).

Also, WSB goes right out the door as soon as you are operational; it has to, or we wouldn't get anything done.

So if you want people to voluntarily sign on to do dangerous and sometimes stupid sh*t across the globe in their grandfathers gear, then you should at the very least, provide them with the same level of care as the average working joe in Canada working a normal job.  While the previous levels of support may have been more generous then what you would get at a normal job, IMHO that is the cost of having a military.

I have no doubt that the politicians (in general) see us collectively as cheap points to score for getting reelected, and trot us out as appropriate to stand in front of a camera when it suits them, rather then provide any real tangible support.  I don't have any real doubt that I am more or less disposable , by and large, to the people sitting in Parliament and their backroom minions.

The reason I am personally still in uniform is to try and do what I can to keep people as safe as is practical from decisions made based on overly rosey evaluations of the technical state of our ships.  It's unfortunate, but have to try and look ahead at everything through the double lens of 'how would doing this help me be more employable on civvie street'.


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## Towards_the_gap (9 Oct 2013)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> So if you want people to voluntarily sign on to do dangerous and sometimes stupid **** across the globe in their grandfathers gear, then you should at the very least, provide them with the same level of care as the average working joe in Canada working a normal job.  While the previous levels of support may have been more generous then what you would get at a normal job, IMHO that is the cost of having a military.



Hence the lawsuit which we were discussing.


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## mad dog 2020 (11 Oct 2013)

Fire fighters are a very important aspect of any community and like life insurance it is great when the time comes and you need it, that being said our premiums are skyrocketing and out of control.
First there are 28 days in a cycle, with 24 hr shifts that's 168 hrs a month, or 4-40 hr standard weeks  with 8 hrs in the bank. Someone mentioned with seniority some work less than the standard 7. If you work your month and gain 8 hrs, I see that every 3 months you accumulate 24 hrs or a drop shift. Heaven forbid you have a sick day!
This whole concept is ridiculous but math wise you have to hire more staff if you work 3- 8 hour shifts.  
I know that my swimming pool was installed by a off duty shift of firefighters. So you want to talk union brotherhoods, this crew may be working under the table or if they bid for the job they can undercut anyone as they got a great benefit package already and are taking jobs from others.  I heard of other crews from Barrie that load Civics in the Honda plant in Alliston. Nuffield said no wonder there are plenty of applicants for any position.
Next, I remember I lived in Esquimalt and they had dual trained police/fire dept also heard there was another in St Theo??? PQ. So you are not ALL sitting in the hall just enough to drive the vehicle and if there is a fire certain police units are designated and have their gear in the trunk and just meet at the site.
I see fire trucks at the grocery store, Home Depot and driving around. 
I dispute to run up stats, you have a 911 call and they ask police, fire or ambulance (note: amalgamated service) I have an injured person that needs a transport to emergency. POOF I got a fire truck, ambulance and too many people at the scene. I almost have to referee the fight over the victim for the call. Heck I declare a tie and like hockey you both get a point for yOur Stats come budget time, in some cases You get a police car so another point. It's a wonder roads and grounds don't show-up. Seriously we need them all and at times (night shift ) you can be stretched thin.
Never agreed for EMS to remain at the hospital, should be like a game of hot potato and once a triage and prioritize  and back in rotation. 
Also one hall, three departments , one gym, change room, showers save some dough, heck you all race to the same calls. Just imagine the race out the bay doors.
Time to be realistic and use some common sense and not listen to the propaganda of the lobbyists.
We need the services and all emergency services are ver important but not to fleece the general public.


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## Remius (11 Oct 2013)

There was a discussion not long ago in Ontario about the rising costs of Police Officers.  One suggestion was having a two tiered force.  Tier 1 would be the police officers as we know them, tier 2 would be guys paid at say half the rate but would deal with traffic, crime scene security, fender bender calls, etc etc.  Basically enhanced by-law guys.

this would allow the tier one to do real police work, and tier two to do stuff we really shouldn't be paying expensive cops to be doing.


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## The Bread Guy (11 Oct 2013)

I've mentioned in other threads that the key "hammer" firefighters have vs. cops and EMS is that house (and, I'm guessing, business) insurance rates can be affected by how many fire halls/fighters are located how close to the house/business being insured.

This helps bring the public more onside when city hall talk turns to cutting fire service staff/stations.


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## Ostrozac (11 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> There was a discussion not long ago in Ontario about the rising costs of Police Officers.  One suggestion was having a two tiered force.  Tier 1 would be the police officers as we know them, tier 2 would be guys paid at say half the rate but would deal with traffic, crime scene security, fender bender calls, etc etc.  Basically enhanced by-law guys.
> 
> this would allow the tier one to do real police work, and tier two to do stuff we really shouldn't be paying expensive cops to be doing.



That sounds very similar to the model used in France, where there is a very clear distinction between "police administrative" (traffic, soccer riots) duties and "police judiciaire" (investigations, detective work) duties. Municipal police services are only permitted to do administrative work --  the national police services are authorized to perform both types of duties.

A two tier policing system like this, reserving your $80000 a year constables for investigating actual crimes and using $50000 a year constables for traffic might work quite well. Surely something has to be done to reign in policing costs.


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## mariomike (11 Oct 2013)

mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> I see fire trucks at the grocery store, Home Depot and driving around.



Reminds me of an incident back in 2006 when a TFS pumper - with a full crew - was stolen from a Home Depot in Toronto.

CTV reported, "Police were in hot pursuit of the pumper truck, which was taken for a 45-minute joyride...".

The thief finally ditched it on Highway 27 North of Kleinburg.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/10499771/toronto-firefighters-reprimanded-for-allowing-pumper-theft



			
				Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Surely something has to be done to reign in policing costs.



Something TPS ( and T-EMS ) had/has was Paid Duty. It did not show on the Sunshine List, because the money does not come directly out of the city treasury. 

They have been trying to cut down on Paid Duty for years. But, unless they hire the required number of TPS officers and T-EMS Paramedics, they won't be issued a Special Event Permit ( or get shut down ).

Special Event permits are required for concerts, music festivals, block parties ( especially after Danzig ), street fairs, outside venues, athletic / sporting events, film shoots, parades, conferences and conventions etc.

They can only hire T-EMS Paramedics because they are the sole ambulance provider within the City of Toronto boundaries that is licensed to transport patients in an emergency situation (under the Ambulance Act of Ontario). 
http://www.toronto.ca/special_events/pdf/emsbrochure.pdf



			
				mad dog 2020 said:
			
		

> This whole concept is ridiculous but math wise you have to hire more staff if you work 3- 8 hour shifts.



Why would that be?

My employer tried to put us back on 8's, or at least 10's, ( from 12's ) for years, but the union took it to arbitration and won. 

( Prior to going on 24's a few years ago, TFS worked 10-hour day shifts, and 14-hour night shifts. My understanding is that the 14-hour nights - rather than simply 12-hour days and 12-hour nights - allowed them to keep their dormitories. )


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Oct 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> My employer tried to put us back on 8's, or at least 10's, ( from 12's ) for years, but the union took it to arbitration and won.



I think it's important to make note for the "Union haters" why a case like that would be "won".  Even though we have those that say 12/16 hour shifts cost more, [see few posts above] that is simply not the case. Hours to be filled are hours to be filled.....full stop.....the times we have been threatened to go back to '8's have always been under the guise of saving money but once all the stats come in then it is obvious, for any trade that requires a detailed changeover before new shifts, that 12/16 hour shifts save money and have the added benefit of less cars on the road doing even less commuting. [which just happens to be the something Govts. push for] 
 The arbitrator then realizes that the management sided argument of "saving money" is a farce and that the whole thing is a corporate attempt at intimidation and when he asks if they have anything more they usually do not.

Having said all that I can not speak for 24 hour shifts that obviously have some built-in 'down' time. I have never looked into those stats, in regards to efficiency, but rather wanted to clear up Mariomikes post in case of any confusion.


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## mariomike (11 Oct 2013)

The EMS Department moved everyone from the 8 to the 12-hour shift in Feb. 1976 to reduce End-of-Shift overtime. 

On the 12-hour schedule, you work 20 shifts every six weeks. 

At that time, there was a Residency Requirement to live in the city. But, when that requirement came to an end several years later, many moved out of town. This became an increased concern after 9/11. 

My uneducated guess is that by attempting to re-introduce the 8-hour shift, it will "encourage" many to return to the city rather than commute five times a week.

With TFS working 24's, it hardly seems reasonable for an arbitrator to expect Paramedics to give up their 12-hour shifts after working them for so many years. There's nearly no one left on the job who can remember anything but 12's.

In Toronto, the number of firefighters to be hired every year is written into their collective agreement.

"Arbitrator raps City of Toronto for not hiring firefighters"
http://www.canadianlawyermag.com/legalfeeds/1122/arbitrator-raps-city-of-toronto-for-not-hiring-firefighters.html

Article 49.01 “A recruit class would be initiated when vacancies in the present workforce created by death, retirement, resignation or discharge reaches 40.”

"Over the past 35 years, the number of fires in the United States has fallen by more than 40% while the number of career firefighters has increased by more than 40%"
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html#sthash.OSaOLNzs.dpuf

"In many cities, both fire trucks and ambulances respond to the same calls. The paramedics do a great job but it is hard to believe that this is an efficient way to deliver medical care and transportation."


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## HTFUAlberta (14 Oct 2013)

Are firefighters over rated? Are firefighters overpaid and underworked? 

I guess it depends.... I could quote all the Union and IAFF reasoning and logic until I'm blue in the face but in the end everybody gets paid to what they are worth... I was a volunteer firefighter for many many years before I went career. I don't do it for the money, trust me. If I wanted money I would take a FF gig up in the oilsands and make a lot more than my muni gig, or get a trade... Heck my GF sells cars and makes more than me! 

I'll be honest I think firefighters ARE overrated sometimes in the end it's just a job. Most guys I work with would say that and that whole hero thing is a load of crap... We know what we signed up for. But then again we have some pretty amazingly crappy things that we deal with sometimes... I'm hoping to be in the CAF soon and I have a dreadful feeling that the way some people look at firefighters they may be looking at people in the CAF... But then again it's just a job right? I'm not trying to troll anything or anybody but the the only time it seems that firefighters are underpaid  and understaffed is when your house is on fire or when your loved one is dying... Anyway I have too many Thanksgiving beers on board so I'll leave it at that...

Stay safe gang, HTFU


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## mariomike (14 Oct 2013)

HTFUAlberta said:
			
		

> If I wanted money I would take a FF gig up in the oilsands and make a lot more than my muni gig, or get a trade...



If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands? 

Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered. 

TFS does ok. ( Not that they don't deserve it. )
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/28/toronto-firefighters-to-receive-14-wage-increase-over-five-years/

I saw an ad for Firefighter/ Paramedic  ( we don't have them ) in the Alberta oil-sands. It says, "Competitive salary".
http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH09/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CNRL&cws=1&rid=2073&Source=CNRL_Careers

QUALIFICATIONS:
 • Typically 4+ years of experience as a Paramedic with Alberta College of Paramedics EMT-P certification

I believe EMT-P would be the equivalent of Advanced Care Paramedic ( ACP ) in Ontario.


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## GR66 (15 Oct 2013)

Are Fire Fighters over-rated?  Are vets benefits overly generous?  I don't know enough details of contracts etc. to venture an informed opinion but I would suggest that the public perception of Fire Fighters (as well as Police, Paramedics, Soldiers, etc.) has greatly changed over the last couple of decades.  

All of these were until fairly recently considered just "jobs".  Typically blue collar, average paying jobs (or in the case of the military low paying, unskilled jobs).  In recent years however these "jobs" have experienced a metamorphosis into highly respected "professions".  Emergency Service workers (and to an extent the military) are now viewed as something more "special" than they were in the past...and deserving of much higher public recognition for their work along with higher levels of compensation to go along with that recognition.  I'm not saying only perceptions have changed...the jobs themselves (and the skill level of the people performing those jobs) I'm sure have changed a great deal in that time period as well.

Perhaps we're seeing some public push-back on the levels of compensation/benefits for these professions by people who think the pendulum has swung too far, or perhaps just don't agree with the new perception of these jobs.


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## mariomike (15 Oct 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> Perhaps we're seeing some public push-back on the levels of compensation/benefits for these professions by people who think the pendulum has swung too far, or perhaps just don't agree with the new perception of these jobs.



There may be more news about this ( in Ontario ) in the future:
http://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-Content/Backgrounders/2013/Interest-Arbitration-The-Fiscal-Impact.aspx


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## HTFUAlberta (17 Oct 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands?
> 
> Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered.



I'll keep it short and sweet: Day rater EMT-P (Ontario ACP) are paid around the $800 a day. Room, board and travel paid by the company. It def ain't like working a rig back home and if you want steak ever night you got it. Some of the camps are actually as nice as any hotel around with gyms, yoga studios (if that's your thing) and al ot more.... They have to be nice because no booze, women, dumb red necks and being in the middle of nowhere and having to do forced OT can be really crappy.

Some of my senior buddies up at Suncor, CRNL etc can easily make $150,000 plus when stock options are factored in.... And they're FiFO (Fly in, Fly out). With that being said it's a waaaaaaay different gig than Muni work. It's still hard work with tons of sacrifices and not much in the way of glory.... Imagine trying to get that 300 lb ironworker with a bum knee off a 300' high coker? That would suck the suck.....

I am by no means an expert of definitive source for this.... But I can tell you my buddies who work up in the oil sands drive waaaaay nicer trucks than us muni guys... But we get to fight off the girls in the bars back home while their eating steak dinners with Toothless Joe and  Newfie Willy in a camp in the middle of nowhere!

Cheers, HTFU


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## HTFUAlberta (17 Oct 2013)

Apologies for the large obnoxious yellow font and the minuscule text. I need to get a better grasp on this whole system...

EDIT: fixed it.
Bruce


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## HTFUAlberta (17 Oct 2013)

HTFUAlberta said:
			
		

> Apologies for the large obnoxious yellow font and the minuscule text. I need to get a better grasp on this whole system...
> 
> EDIT: fixed it.
> Bruce



Cheers!


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## mariomike (17 Oct 2013)

HTFUAlberta said:
			
		

> I'll keep it short and sweet: Day rater EMT-P (Ontario ACP) are paid around the $800 a day. Room, board and travel paid by the company. It def ain't like working a rig back home and if you want steak ever night you got it. Some of the camps are actually as nice as any hotel around with gyms, yoga studios (if that's your thing) and al ot more.... They have to be nice because no booze, women, dumb red necks and being in the middle of nowhere and having to do forced OT can be really crappy.
> 
> Some of my senior buddies up at Suncor, CRNL etc can easily make $150,000 plus when stock options are factored in.... And they're FiFO (Fly in, Fly out). With that being said it's a waaaaaaay different gig than Muni work. It's still hard work with tons of sacrifices and not much in the way of glory.... Imagine trying to get that 300 lb ironworker with a bum knee off a 300' high coker? That would suck the suck.....
> 
> ...



Thanks for that, HTFU.


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## x_para76 (17 Oct 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Thanks for that, HTFU.



HTFU? Harden the F%#* Up?


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## ballz (17 Oct 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, how much do Firefighters make in the oil-sands?
> 
> Job security, benefits, pension, seniority and hours of work / time-distance away from home should also be considered.



Don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I lived in Fort Mac for almost 7 years and have a few friends that are fire fighters on sites such as the ones mentioned by HTFU. They are not on a fly-in, fly-out gig, they live in Fort Mac.

I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.

When it comes to job security / pensions / benefits, there is not much out there better than the companies in Fort Mac. Suncor, Syncrude, CNRL, and Shell being "the big four" so to speak. If you are working for one of those companies, you are good in that department.

Time-distance away from home is always crap in Fort Mac. If you live in town, Suncor is the closest and because of traffic its still a minimum an hour. You're looking at up to 2 hours or more each way on a normal day, and Hwy 63 is famous for accidents causing 4-5 hr commutes. I worked on the sites briefly as an apprentice so I got to deal with this lots, and despite the big spending they've been doing on infrastructure that place's growth has well outpaced the development.


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## HTFUAlberta (18 Oct 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> Don't know how I stumbled upon this thread but I lived in Fort Mac for almost 7 years and have a few friends that are fire fighters on sites such as the ones mentioned by HTFU. They are not on a fly-in, fly-out gig, they live in Fort Mac.
> 
> I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.
> 
> ...



Ballz you are 110% correct... As is X_Para76

Buts lets not change the topic. We're talking about those over paid and over rated firefighters!  

Cheers, HTFU


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## mariomike (18 Oct 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> I will back up what he said about $150,000 a year, and ask for him to confirm a few things I am about to say. There is tons of OT available if you want it and its triple-time. Your shift, IIRC, is 6 (12 hrs) on and 6 days off, so if you are willing to work a couple shifts of those on your days off each cycle, you can top 200,000 or 225,000 pretty easy.



For anyone interested in an Emergency Services job at Horizon Oil Sands:
http://www.firehall.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24193

There is an open job posting for FF / EMT-Paramedic ( ACP ) in Reply #23.


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