# Fort Detroit 1812



## Jonny Boy (4 May 2007)

I was in wales last weekend and went to Cardiff Castle where they have the Welch regiment museum 41st/69th Foot (now the Royal regiment of Wales). as i was walking through the museum i saw that the regiment was in Canada and America during the War of 1812 and they fought at fort Detroit, Lundy's lane and Queenston Heights. i got talking to one of the Staff at the museum and he took me and showed me the flag that was surrendered to the welsh regiment at fort Detroit, than he pointed out something weird on it. the eagle on the flag has 2 heads but only one body. no body at the museum or no one that they have talk to knows why the eagle has 2 heads. i was wondering if anyone here might know the answer to this. it would be neat to know the reason.

Thanks

- Hutch


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## geo (4 May 2007)

Any chance of a picture or an artist's depiction?


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## Jonny Boy (4 May 2007)

I was unfortunately not allowed to get a picture of it, but will keep searching for a picture on the internet.


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## niner domestic (4 May 2007)

I've seen a lot of two-headed eagles used in Russian coat of arms (The Tsar's personal coat of arms for one) , and also on the Albanian flag.  Lore has it that the two heads are representative of the divide between the Christian and Orthodox churches. Although, Michael VIII Paleologue adopted this symbol after he had reconquered Constantinople from the Crusaders in 1261. It represented looking towards the East (Asia Minor, traditional power center of the Byzantine-government in exile after the IVth Crusade) and the West. In Italy, it's sometimes seen to represent Taxation (if it's chest has a coin across it).  In Greece, it's the symbol for the Army General Staff. To the Greeks, the symbol is representative of the Divine power of the gods and military power. Charlemagne, Emperor of the Franks, also had a standard that used the double headed eagle.  

The answer to your question may lie in who was the nobleman at the time (they may have lent their standard/heraldry to the regt), or it may well be a borrowed symbol of faith.


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## vonGarvin (4 May 2007)

Here is a stylised version of the Smirnoff Vodka icon/label.  Two headed eagle.


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## 3rd Horseman (4 May 2007)

Did not Hessen (German) mercenaries fight on behalf of the Brits in the war. The split eagle is also a standard used by Austrians (Hessens). I tried to find a link and some details on the 1812 web site but have not yet tracked down the Hessen Regt standard.

 Fort Detroit is near and dear to my family as it marks the first arrival of my family to North America as members of the group that set up Fort Detroit in 1608 along with French merchants.


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## geo (4 May 2007)

3rd... thought that too BUT....
The flag in question would have been a US standard or flag 
The Brits & Hessians would have been fighting alongside each other.... and the Hessians were fighting the Yanks during the war of Independence...


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## exspy (4 May 2007)

Hutch,

On the Welch Regiment museum website there is a picture of what appears to be a US Regimental Colour of appropriate vintage, unfortunately without a caption.  In the wikipedia article on the "Battle of Detroit" (I know, I know, always a bad source of information) it is stated that the 41st Regiment captured the colours (note the plural) of the US 4th Infantry.

Could the Stars and Stripes you describe be the companion to the regimental colour captured at the battle?  US regimental colours, like their British counterparts, came in pairs with a regimental and a national colour.  Now, if this is the case, then the two-headed eagle on the Stars and Stripes you saw (the national colour) may be from an incident or award that occurred during the 4th Infantry's history, more than likely during the American Revolution.  The may have fought alongside a famous French regiment, had a commanding officer of foreign and noble birth, or taken it after defeating a proud British regiment that had the symbol as one of their distinctions.

Unfortunately even if this is the case, it does not explain the meaning of the double-headed eagle for you.  But you might try a history of the 4th US Infantry.


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## geo (4 May 2007)

( the US 4th may have defeated / captured the colours of the Hessians in the war of 1812... but; this is pure speculation)


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## Jonny Boy (4 May 2007)

thanks for the help.i have found a picture of the flag and it is the  4th U.S. Infantry regimental colours. since i do not know how to post a picture on here i will give you the link. it id hard to see the second head and it almost looks like a double printed eagle.

http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/amot-search/default.asp?Category=Amot&Service=Museum-Display&reference=0000000145


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## Jonny Boy (4 May 2007)

if you look just to the left of the very visible head you will see it


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## je suis prest (4 May 2007)

The 4th United States Infantry Regiment was raised in 1792 and it did not perpetuate any revolutionary war regiment.  The regiment was subsequently disbanded and then re-raised in 1808, when the colours were granted to it. 


This web site provides access to more detailed information on the colours of US regiments (I suppose that should be "colors") and an extract concerning the pattern of the 1808 colours.  Nothing that I can see explains a double-headed eagle.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931(194124)5%3A4%3C263%3AUSACAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W


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## AJFitzpatrick (4 May 2007)

je suis prest said:
			
		

> The 4th United States Infantry Regiment was raised in 1792 and it did not perpetuate any revolutionary war regiment.  The regiment was subsequently disbanded and then re-raised in 1808, when the colours were granted to it.
> 
> 
> This web site provides access to more detailed information on the colours of US regiments (I suppose that should be "colors") and an extract concerning the pattern of the 1808 colours.  Nothing that I can see explains a double-headed eagle.
> ...


P. 266 of the linked reference shows a sketch of the 4th United States Infantry Regiment's "standard" which has a decidedly one-headed eagle. I cannot see the 2nd head in the pic myself but I'll accept that it is there. Perhaps this is some sort of auxiliary/additional colour? The reference suggests that the regiment had been given other colours by the ladies of Boston.


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## Jonny Boy (4 May 2007)

ya the picture isn't very clear. but the 2nd head almost looks like a double print. i was thinking while it was stored in London it may faded an image of a second eagle while folded. the guy at the museum insisted that it was supposed to be there though.


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## exspy (4 May 2007)

Hutch,

OK, I re-read the entire thread and saw where I made my mistake in my response.  I assumed, wrongly it appears, that when you mentioned the captured flag you saw in Wales that you were refering to a version of the Stars and Stripes.  This is why I mentioned it in my answer.  When I saw the photo of the US colours on the Royal Welch website I assumed, again wrongly, that perhaps it was one of a pair captured at the Battle of Detroit that included the aforementioned erroneously assumed Stars and Stripes.  In one of you later posts you seem to confirm that the 'colour' pictured on the website is the one you refered to as the 'flag' in your first post.

I also assumed (my third wrong assumption) that when you mentioned a double-headed eagle you were refering to a conventional depiction of that insignia that had been purposely embroidered on the flag/colour/color and not the ghostly image that you later indicated it was.

Finally, when I looked at the image from the Welch Regiment website more closely (which I have to agree is difficult to do because of its size) I personally do not see a second eagle's head.

I think therefore, before any further real discussion on this subject can be continued a good, high res depiction of the colour will be needed.  Perhaps the museum could provide one to you.


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## Jonny Boy (5 May 2007)

> I assumed, wrongly it appears, that when you mentioned the captured flag you saw in Wales that you were refering to a version of the Stars and Stripes.



I can understand they you would think stars and stripes, i did not realize it was the 4th United States Infantry Regiment colours. but know we all know that it is.



> I also assumed (my third wrong assumption) that when you mentioned a double-headed eagle you were refering to a conventional depiction of that insignia that had been purposely embroidered on the flag/colour/color and not the ghostly image that you later indicated it was.



i was told by the guy that was working at the museum that it was supposed to be a double headed eagle and it was made to look like that.  he just does not know why it has 2 heads. or why there are 2 heads on the flag.




> Finally, when I looked at the image from the Welch Regiment website more closely (which I have to agree is difficult to do because of its size) I personally do not see a second eagle's head.
> 
> I think therefore, before any further real discussion on this subject can be continued a good, high res depiction of the colour will be needed.  Perhaps the museum could provide one to you.



i will try and see if the museum can email me a large picture of the colours. i can barely see the head in the small picture. but i Will see what i can do. 

thanks for all the help so far everyone, the guy at the museum just said that it was THE flag that was surrendered at Detroit. he never told me it was regimental colours or any other details.


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## ExSarge (7 May 2007)

Assuming that this is in-fact a double headed eagle and not a result of age and improper storage, the answer may be relatively simple. The great seal of the United States, in the 19th century had the eagles head on a swivel. In times of peace it faced towards the olive branch, in times of war towards the bundle of arrows. Unit colours were often sewn by the wife’s of the regimental officers. Although they were supposed to follow a “patent” or pattern issued by the war office it was not unknown for variations to be added. This may have been their attempt to show the regiment prepared for war and peace.


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## ExSarge (7 May 2007)

As a follow-up to my previous post, the Fourth Infantry at that time was recruited mainly from the New England states. They, the New England states were not all supportive of the War of 1812. Especially the states bordering Canada, considering it an impediment to trade. A double headed eagle may have been a political statement. This of course is only supposition on my part. I have seen no evidence that the Officers of the Regiment supported this view.


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## Bill Smy (18 May 2007)

Volume 7, 1928, of the Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research has an article "Captured Flags in the Royal Hospital Chelsea" which describes the colour of the 4th Regiment, United States Infantry which was captured at Detroit.

It was sent to England and its arrival was reported in the London Gazette, 6 October 1812. It first was hung in the Chapel Royal, Whitehall, but was transferred to the Royal Chapel at Chelsea in 1835.

The Journal article has a sketch of the colour, and the eagle clearly has only one head.

I believe that this colour is still in the Museum in Chelsea. Certainly, the colour captured at Queenston, 13 October 1812, by a soldier of the 2nd Lincoln Regiment is still there.


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## tomahawk6 (3 Jun 2007)

It was bad luck for the Regiment that its colors were apart from the Regiment at the time of the surrender by General Hull at Detroit. The Regiment had been tasked with escorting a supply column south of Detroit. The force was ambushed by a combined force of British, Canadians and Indians but they were able to defeat the enemy but were unable to follow up on their victory because General Hull ordered them to return to Detroit.On arriving they discovered that Hull had surrendered his entire command to an inferior force without a fight. Hull was convicted by a court martial of cowardness and negligent duty and was sentenced to be shot. President Monroe commuted the sentence to dismissal from the Army.The regiment was reconstituted in 1813 and fought at La Cole Hill and Plattsburg which restored the good name of the Regiment.

Modern Regimental Color.






Civil war regimental color.


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