# Why Acting Sub-Lieutenant, and Where are the Midshipmen & Ensigns (Merged thread)



## casing

Why is this rank known as Acting Sub-Lieutenant as opposed to Ensign?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Because we followed the Royal Navy in ranking structure up until Unification. There was never the rank of Ensign in the Canadian Navy or the Royal Canadian Navy.


----------



## casing

I thought the Royal Navy used to have an Ensign rank.  That must have been a very long time ago, I guess.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I think you were thinking of Midshipman

 http://www.intellectualloafing.com/noframes/activitiesfolder/beinformedfolder/britishmilitaryranks.htm


----------



## big_castor

Ensign was first an Army rank (it was called Cornet in the cavalry).  The Ensign was the junior officer who carried the unit colours and they took their name from the flag they carried. 

In french, we use Enseigne de vaisseau for Acting Sub-Lieutenant and Sub-Lieutenant.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Ensign is still the official title for the appointment, or at least it is used by our regiment.  As pointed out, the two ensigns (I believe the "correct" terms are Senior Colour Ensign and Junior Colour Ensign) carry the Colours on parade. The Senior Ensign carries the Sovereign‘s Colour and the Junior carries the Regimental Colour.

Armoured Regiments have Guidons; perhaps one of the black hatters can tell us if they also have an ensign for the guidon?  

The term also refers to a flag, especially as flown on a ship - ie The Red Ensign, the White Ensign, etc.  The Red Ensign was the national flag of Canada in the first part of the 20th Century though I don‘t think it was officially recognized as such until after 1944.

There is still reference to "naval ensigns", these refer to, I believe, national recognition flags as flown on naval vessels.


----------



## xFusilier

ARmoured Regiments do not have an ensign (implying an officer) as in the Cavalry and Armoured Corps the Guidon is placed in the care of the WO‘s and Sgt‘s of the Regiment.  For example IIRC (its been over 10 years) the KOCR kept their guidon in the RSM‘s office.  Whereas IIRC the Calgary Highlanders kept the Colours in the CO‘s office. I know they weren‘t kept in the officers mess as I remember Mr. Griffiths showing us an obscure plaque in the Officers Mess that explained the whole thing but as I say it was about 12 years ago.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

In the Armoured Corps the Guidon is carried on parade by a MWO, escorted by two WO‘s normally armed with swords. The Guidon party also has a Sgt responsible for uncasing and casing the Guidon.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

You are both, of course, correct, thanks.  And I don‘t suppose I can tell you where the Colours are kept now without having to kill you afterwards, yes?

 

The Guidon also gets mounted on a Jeep for roll pasts with the KOCR; for the Queen‘s Parade in 1990 it was done that way at any rate.  Not an Iltis, but an honest-to-God Jeep with, IIRC, velvet seats and a chromed handrail that General Patton would have been proud of.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Michael,

I‘ve seen the Guidon kept in various locations, including the Officer‘s Mess. 
When a parade is mounted, so is the Guidon Party. It can be done in a variety of vehicles.

OK, kill me now.


----------



## xFusilier

I remember watching the Queens parade in McMahon Stadium in 1990.  Complete w/Sikh colour ensign and the CDS on parade as a piper.  As for the colours comment, well I sometime have that tendency, people ask me what time it is and I tell them how to build a watch


----------



## Coyote43D

The Guidon is carried by the senior armoured MWO in the regiment(usually the TQMS). The LdSH(RC) Guidon is kept in a glass case by the duty centre.


----------



## AlphaCharlie

Ensign is a rank on Star Trek.....


----------



## D-n-A

AlphaCharlie said:
			
		

> Ensign is a rank on Star Trek.....



sometimes it better to not say anything

now we know your a star trek fan


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

AlphaCharlie said:
			
		

> Ensign is a rank on Star Trek.....



Ensign is also a junior officer rank in the US Navy....


----------



## casing

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> AlphaCharlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ensign is a rank on Star Trek.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ensign is also a junior officer rank in the US Navy....
Click to expand...

And Ensign in the US Navy is equivalent to Canada's Acting Sub-Lieutenant.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Casing said:
			
		

> Ex-Dragoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlphaCharlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ensign is a rank on Star Trek.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ensign is also a junior officer rank in the US Navy....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And Ensign in the US Navy is equivalent to Canada's Acting Sub-Lieutenant.
Click to expand...


Exactly.....


----------



## navymich

How about going back to having a midshipman:



> A midshipman originally was, as the name suggests, one who lived amidships, this is mid-way between the officers who lived aft and the men who lived forward. While training as an officer he worked with the men somewhat like our own cadets. In the U.S. Navy this original status is more closely maintained, the U.S.N. midshipman ranking with the R.C.N. cadet. The midshipman used to serve seven years on the lower deck and was roughly equivalent to our present day petty officer in rank and position.
> 
> The midshipman's white patch, as an insignia of rank, came into use in 1758. It has been suggested that the patch is all that remains of what used to be a white coat collar which went out of use because the 'Young Gentlemen' used to dirty it too quickly. No support can be found for this doubtful theory. The significance of white, however, is of great antiquity; to it our word candidate is related. Candidus, Latin adjective for white, referred to the pure colour of the togas worn by those aspiring to high office in the Roman government. The same purity motif is seen with a bride's wedding dress. The midshipman's white patch and the officer candidate's white cap ribbon probably stem from this Roman origin.


----------



## NavalGent

I think Acting Sub-Lieutenant is a cool sounding rank. It makes sense... he or she is not quite a Sub-Lieutenant. More seriously though, it does have a historical basis and is not exclusively used by, nor created by, the CF. And instead of going back to Midshipman, we should rename the rank of Naval Cadet to be Almost-Acting-Sub-Lieutenant. ;D


----------



## navymich

NavalGent said:
			
		

> ...we should rename the rank of Naval Cadet to be Almost-Acting-Sub-Lieutenant. ;D



AA/SLt....how appropriate.  I've taught many Naval Cadidiots that have led me to drink... ;D


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

navymich said:
			
		

> How about going back to having a midshipman:



Midshipmen also had three buttons sewn on their sleeve parallel to the hem and about in the same position as their future stripe. The joke was that these were to keep them from wiping their noses on their sleeves and thus they were nicknamed "Snotties." In the CF post unification Navy all officers were nicknamed "Snotties" by some NCOs and enlisted referring to the superior attitude adopted by a lot of the RN trained RCN officers of yesteryear. Some of this attitude still remains and I've noticed it in some Wardrooms...a wise XO gets a a grip on that pretty quick.
Midshipman is more the equivalent of OCdt or Naval Cadet than Acting Sub. Acting Sub was a rank designator in the old RCN for like "acting lacking" when he didn't have his ticket yet.
In the USN a one striper is a Ensign and one and a half is a LT Junior Grade.
Ensign might be a good new name if Acting Sub is not that cool.

Also of note in the old RCN they wore colour between the stripes to let you know what classification of officer he was....i.e. cream colour=supply, purple=engineer, red=medical, no colour=Executive Branch or what we know as MARRS today. The Padre wore an officer's uniform but no rank and a clerical colour instead of a tie.


----------



## Cayuga

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Midshipman is more the equivalent of OCdt or Naval Cadet than Acting Sub. Acting Sub was a rank designator in the old RCN for like "acting lacking" when he didn't have his ticket yet.
> In the USN a one striper is a Ensign and one and a half is a LT Junior Grade.
> Ensign might be a good new name if Acting Sub is not that cool.
> 
> Also of note in the old RCN they wore colour between the stripes to let you know what classification of officer he was....i.e. cream colour=supply, purple=engineer, red=medical, no colour=Executive Branch or what we know as MARRS today. The Padre wore an officer's uniform but no rank and a clerical colour instead of a tie.



I didn't know about the old RCN reference to Acting Subbie. I do know that I have lost count of the number of times when people have asked me what my rank is and that the usual response is along the lines of " so get back to me when they figure out what you are" or "so you are pretend officer" or "wow that is a mouth full, I bet you can't wait to get promoted"

I like Ensign, but I would be leery about wearing redshirts. Especially since I tell people who are confused about my rank is that I am like an Ensign on Star Trek.

I dislike the American Junior Grade and Lower Half way of doing things, but mainly because Commodore sounds so much cooler than Rear Admiral lower half.

I have seen the filler colour between the stripes around sometimes. In fact it has only been the red medical that I have seen.


----------



## Phrontis

I believe the distinctive colours between the rank stripes on officer's sleeves and on the collar insignia on the naval khaki uniform came into use shortly after World War II and was phased out in the mid-60s, or at the latest with unification.  I'd like to see this come back for more than just doctors, who once again wear the scarlet between their rank stripes.  I reckon the off-white cummerbund worn by some SYOs in ships with Red Sea rig (does anyone wear Red Sea rig anymore?) is a nod to the old distinctive colours designations.

And the nature of the rank stripe on an officer's sleeve or shoulder board also used to indicate whether one was RCN, RCNR, or RCNVR (wavey navy!).  When I started out as a reservist I'd have been proud to wear a wavey stripe to show I was a shad, but I'm not sure this would be a popular move nowadays.


----------



## Neill McKay

Phrontis said:
			
		

> And the nature of the rank stripe on an officer's sleeve or shoulder board also used to indicate whether one was RCN, RCNR, or RCNVR (wavey navy!).  When I started out as a reservist I'd have been proud to wear a wavey stripe to show I was a shad, but I'm not sure this would be a popular move nowadays.



I don't think it would fly in the modern, total-force, navy (but I bet a lot of reg. force members would like it!).

The distinguishing cloth is still used in the Coast Guard and merchant marine, although I'm not sure that it's as elaborate a system as the navy once used.  The only specialties that I know to use it are engineers, logistics officers, and instructors (the latter two only in the Coast Guard).


----------



## Rhibwolf

In VDQ RED Sea Rig was the cienture fleche, not that half satin rag we now wear.  it was pretty cool.  I have a Log cummerbund, but its horrible, and i am always looking for an off white one to wear - yes, its a nod, but its allowed too!!   
Dont dental and legal also have the stripe between their ranks?


----------



## Phrontis

Wasn't it orange for dental?  I reckon that wouldn't work today, as, if I'm not mistaken, there are no naval dental officers, dentistry being an army classification.

The dental world should chew it over, but they probably don't have the teeth it.  (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)


----------



## Cayuga

I like the wavey navy look like in the old war movies... Cruel Sea anyone?


----------



## Neill McKay

Phrontis said:
			
		

> Wasn't it orange for dental?  I reckon that wouldn't work today, as, if I'm not mistaken, there are no naval dental officers, dentistry being an army classification.



I believe you're right on both counts -- in fact, I think dental services for the RCN and the RCAF were provided by the army years before unification took place.



> The dental world should chew it over, but they probably don't have the teeth it.  (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)



Likely right!


----------



## k_murphy

A question regarding the rank:

Do you address an A/SLt as "Acting Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins" or "Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins".  
I've been told that A/SLt is just a "paper rank" and it is proper to address them as SLt. 
But, I've heard many pipes requesting A/SLt Bloggins to here or there.

Is there any convention or are both acceptable terms of address?
 ???


----------



## Rec Centre Toronto CO

Acting Sub-Lieutenant is the appropiate term.  
To tell the truth, they hate it, as I did, and can't wait to get promoted to get away from it.  One way of inspiring them to work harder...


----------



## MARS

I am one of those who push the "Acting as a written form of address only" POV.  I don't know if it is 100% correct, but I explain it the same way I do other "acting ranks" - they are never spoken, only written.  I then say to whoever is asking:

"See Sgt/PO so-and-so overthere?  The big, mean SOB with the jailhouse tats on his arms and the three rows of ribbons?  He is an Acting-Sgt/PO.  Now, you go over there and address him as 'Acting Sgt so and so' and see how he reacts...I dare you."


----------



## dimsum

IIRC onboard ship they addressed A/SLTs as "Sub-Lieutenant Bloggins, requested (blank)", or at least the ones I sailed on.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

When piped "Acting Sub Lieutenant Bloggins requested Ships Office"...address them as Sir Or Ma'am and you can never go wrong.


----------



## medicineman

The rank is A/Slt because you're not really an SLt yet.  I formally address a 2nd Lt as such, so why shouldn't you be addressed any differently?  Whoever used the analogy of acting NCO rank obviously hasn't been in that place, as it often happens these days.  I was an A/MCpl for 5 months and an A/Sgt for 3 - worse, when I did my JLC (and the vast majority of my coursemates as well), I was formally addressed as and had to identify myself as Acting-Lacking MCpl Me just to rub my nose in it more.  My signature blocks also had A/MCpl or A/Sgt as rank, as (especially the Sgt) I wasn't qualified to that rank yet; I was a different qualification level, which makes a big difference when signing medical chits.  "Acting" is there as a reminder of how big your breeches really are.  For the bread part of the shyte sandwich, be proud of your rank/appointment - snivelling that you don't like the "Acting" bit and dropping it to try to make yourself sound more important is good way to get on alot of people's bad sides.  It's only a (hopefully) temporary, albeit annoying prefix.  Besides, people will expect a little less from you - if you produce better than expected, it makes you look that much better.

MM


----------



## J_dog

The A/Slt rank was created after unification(Feb-1968) to bring the Navy ranks in line with the Army-centric rank structure of unification.

The Navy junior Officer rank structure use to be Mid-Shipmen (same as O/Cdt) then commissioned to Sub-Lieutenant (1- gold bar) followed by Lieutenant (2-gold bars).  The 1.5 gold bar rank were added after unification for the Navy, and therefore Navy had to create a new rank to fit the “new” Army-centric rank structure. 

So as a result the Acting-Sub Lieutenant rank was created and filled the 1-gold bar spot and the Sub-Lieutenant rank was given the 1.5-gold bar spot and the Lieutenant rank remained the same with two-gold bars. The Navy also lost the “Executive curl” from the Officer ranks, but it can still be found on the Mess kit.  

In fact, the Navy Officer Mess kit still follows the old rank structure (pre-1968).

Cheers J.


----------



## Infanteer

What a goofy name.  Let's go to Midshipman or Ensign just so we can get rid of that mouthful....


----------



## McG

Infanteer said:
			
		

> What a goofy name.  Let's go to Midshipman or Ensign just so we can get rid of that mouthful....


If the rank was created to match the Army's 2Lt, why not get rid of 2Lt & A/SLt?  We have OCdt as the untrained rank and Capt as the 'journeyman level.'  Do we need two ranks (2Lt and Lt), both of which an officer is auto-promoted through, in order to mark the 'apprentice level' officer?


----------



## GAP

MCG said:
			
		

> If the rank was created to match the Army's 2Lt, why not get rid of 2Lt & A/SLt?  We have OCdt as the untrained rank and Capt as the 'journeyman level.'  Do we need two ranks (2Lt and Lt), both of which an officer is auto-promoted through, in order to mark the 'apprentice level' officer?



I don't know about the CF, but there is a world of difference between  a 2nd and 1st Lt.......


----------



## Infanteer

A good way of putting it MCG, fully recognizing that, at least Army-wise, 2Lt is a training rank (except for ROTP types).  IMHO, they should be retained, and you don't get commissioned until you're done your Phase Training.  I know the Pilot-types have a heartache with that, but maybe they should just have their own commissioning plan.

DP 1 = OCdt/NCdt
Pass DP1 = 2Lt for 6-12 months probabtion at which point your CO can still "Fail" you and the CF can release you for not being leadership material; call it Phase V.
Pass "Phase V" = Lt
3 Years and ATOC = Capt.

Now, the 2Lt and Lt are merely formalities.  I really don't like how they're treated by the system....


----------



## Snakedoc

I personally would prefer the Canadian Navy use the rank 'Ensign' as opposed to 'Acting Sub-Lieutenant' which is always a mouthful to say (or get rid of the rank all together and go back to the old system....with executive curls and all  ;D ).  Which is why formally I've often heard them addressed with the 'Acting' and in most other occasions just 'Sub-Lieutenant' for simplicity sake (something I've heard CO's do as well).  Also Ensign has more meaning behind it as being the junior commissioned officer that carries the ensign in a colour party.

A question about the Naval-Cadet rank as well.  I seem to recall reading somewhere in the NDA that it lists the rank as being Midshipman rather than NCdt.  Anybody know how NCdt came into use rather than Midshipman?


----------



## Monsoon

J_dog said:
			
		

> The A/Slt rank was created after unification(Feb-1968) to bring the Navy ranks in line with the Army-centric rank structure of unification.


Well, A/Slt did actually exists pre-unification and in much the same capacity as today (a rank awarded upon completion of a portion of training), but like all the acting-lacking ranks it was never spoken, just written. It is proper to refer to an A/Slt verbally as "Sub-Lieutenant So-and-so", although "Mr/Ms So-and-so" also simplifies things.

I'm told that the post-unification ranks were actually based on the air force model, which had something comparable to a MS/MCpl and the the rank of "Flying Officer" which became A/SLt.



			
				Snakedoc said:
			
		

> A question about the Naval-Cadet rank as well.  I seem to recall reading somewhere in the NDA that it lists the rank as being Midshipman rather than NCdt.  Anybody know how NCdt came into use rather than Midshipman?


If that's the case, it may be using the term "midshipmen" generically to refer to all officers under training. I've never seen it, though.


----------



## dimsum

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I'm told that the post-unification ranks were actually based on the air force model, which had something comparable to a MS/MCpl and the the rank of "*Flying Officer*" which became A/SLt.



Pilot Officer is the equiv of A/SLt.  Flying Officer was the equiv of Lt (and still is in most Commonwealth countries)

...back to the regularly-scheduled thread...


----------



## Snakedoc

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> If that's the case, it may be using the term "midshipmen" generically to refer to all officers under training. I've never seen it, though.



I just did a quick check of the NDA and under the 'schedule' portion in relation to section 21 on ranks of officers and non-commissioned members, all the naval ranks are the same as they are today in column II except it says 'Midshipman Naval Cadet' for what we conventionally call Naval Cadet today.


----------



## casing

Second Lieutenant isn't quite the mouthful that Acting Sub-Lieutenant is, but it's still pretty full and pretty annoying to have to spill out of the mouth.  Anyway, the punchline of my comment here is that 2Lts are frequently addressed sans the 'second'.


----------



## Rec Centre Toronto CO

Similarly, 
Acting Sub-Lieutenants and Sub-Lieutenants are more commonly referred to as Subs, or Subbies, but never as a replacement to their rank. i.e. You never say Subbie Jones, but SLt Jones is a subbie.  They sometimes are called by senior officers as Sub.
It is also common to call Lieutenant Commanders as Commander, although they are short a half-stripe.  Similarly, Lieutenant Colonels are still called Colonel in the army.


----------



## Snakedoc

Rec Centre Toronto CO said:
			
		

> It is also common to call Lieutenant Commanders as Commander, although they are short a half-stripe.  Similarly, Lieutenant Colonels are still called Colonel in the army.



I've never really heard this in the Canadian military before...perhaps I'm not hanging out with the right pay grade  ;D
However I always thought that this practice was only done in the American military and not Canadian?


----------



## NavalGent

I would say a better example of addressing an Acting Subbie as Sub Lieutenant is the equivalent to the case of POs. There are different real ranks with different insignia and pay rates, which, in verbal practice, go by the same name.

If an Acting Sub Lieutenant introduced him or herself as "Sub Lieutenant Bloggins", I wouldn't see him or her as trying to make him or herself more than he or she is. Similarly, if a PO introduced him or herself as "Petty Officer Bloggins" I wouldn't be all like "ah ah ah...you're Petty Officer Second Class Bloggins, you should say it in full". 

The full written rank is indeed a mouthful, and sounds kind of silly. When I was a Naval Cadet, I liked to make fun of the rank system and say that I was an Almost-Acting-Sub-Lieutenant or A/A/SLt.


----------



## Snakedoc

I just posted in another thread about a similar topic and it jogged my memory about this thread.  Feel free to see the annex I attached in the other thread as it clarifies a couple of the issues discussed in this thread (ie spoken short form for A/SLt rank is Sub-Lieutenant, Colonel is a spoken short form for LCol, but Commander is not a spoken short form for LCdr etc).  Hope it helps!

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/812/post-995599.html#msg995599


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Lets get a few things straight: Pre-unification, the ranks of Naval Cadet, Midshipman, Acting Sub-Lieutenant and Sub-Lieutenant were in use in the R.C.N.

The actual rank worn on the sleeve by A/SLt's and SLt's was the same and they were BOTH referred to as  Sub-Lieutenant, except in official correspondence. 

The progression referred to their training level:

Officer candidates came in the service as Naval Cadet (indicated by  a "pin" on the coat lapel) and, upon graduating from the then equivalent of "Basic", became Midshipman (a "pin" over a square of broadcloth on the lapel) to do their true naval apprenticeship.

Once they graduated and commissioned, they went to their first ship as A/SLt's (one broad stripe with executive curl), a rank they retained until they were ready to stand their own watch. At that point they went before the board to obtain their watch keeping certificate AND, as a result of passing it, the substantive rank of SLt, which however was still denoted by a single broad stripe with curl .

As for the term "second lieutenant", it would not work in the Navy, as it would be considered to refer to the Combat Officer. Why, you ask?

In the older days of the Navy, ships had a Captain and every other officer's position onboard, other than the masters, were referred to as lieutenants, with the First Lieutenant being the second in command to the captain, the Second Lieutenant being the next most senior, and so forth down to the very junior Sixth Lieutenant (Merchant ships still use a similar system, with  captain, first mate, second mate, etc.). So in the Navy, being Second Lieutenant means you are second in line to become captain, an elevated position, not that you are second to all lieutenants, a low position (which we keep for the army  ).

This is why, even to this day, the X.O. of  a ship is often referred to as the First Lieutenant, or Number One, or Jimmy the one.

And BTW, Lieutenant-Commanders used to be (a long time ago) considered part of the "lieutenants". They just happen to be lieutenants that were senior enough that, when the need arose, you could temporarily appoint them in command of a third rate or fourth rate ship of the line - until they could be properly promoted to commander or relieved by a commander/captain that became available for the job.  As a result, Lieutenant-Commanders were part of the "junior" officers and, usually referred to as Lieutenant by their seniors in command of the ship, as Lieutenant-Commanders by their peers and juniors under normal circumstances, and as Commanders by all while in a command of their own.

When I joined (many moons ago and perhaps a few eons), junior officers often addressed LCDR's as Commanders onboard the steamers, a practice that had disappeared by the time I myself reached that rank (Damit !)


----------



## Pusser

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Lets get a few things straight: Pre-unification, the ranks of Naval Cadet, Midshipman, Acting Sub-Lieutenant and Sub-Lieutenant were in use in the R.C.N.
> 
> Officer candidates came in the service as Naval Cadet (indicated by  a "pin" on the coat lapel) and, upon graduating from the then equivalent of "Basic", became Midshipman (a "pin" over a square of broadcloth on the lapel) to do their true naval apprenticeship.
> 
> As for the term "second lieutenant", it would not work in the Navy, as it would be considered to refer to the Combat Officer.
> 
> And BTW, Lieutenant-Commanders used to be (a long time ago) considered part of the "lieutenants". They just happen to be lieutenants that were senior enough that, when the need arose, you could temporarily appoint them in command of a third rate or fourth rate ship of the line - until they could be properly promoted to commander or relieved by a commander/captain that became available for the job.  As a result, Lieutenant-Commanders were part of the "junior" officers and, usually referred to as Lieutenant by their seniors in command of the ship, as Lieutenant-Commanders by their peers and juniors under normal circumstances, and as Commanders by all while in a command of their own.
> 
> When I joined (many moons ago and perhaps a few eons), junior officers often addressed LCDR's as Commanders onboard the steamers, a practice that had disappeared by the time I myself reached that rank (Damit !)



Yes, the RCN had Acting Sub-Lieutenants, but this was a true "acting" rank.  They were dressed and paid as sub-lieutenants.  Today's acting sub-lieutenant is a substantive rank, which makes the title somewhat silly in my mind.  I like the way the Kiwis have gotten around it.  In the RNZN, their midshipmen equate with our NCdt and wear a white patch with a button on the lapel of their jackets.  The next RNZN rank is the ensign (the only Commonwealth navy that uses this as a rank title) who is equivalent to our A/SLt and wears a half-stripe with executive curl.  this is followed by the sub-lieutenant who wears a full stripe with executive curl and who is equivalent to our SLt who wears one and half stripes (with executive curl now )  The rest of the RNZN ranks are identical to ours.

Although naval cadets did exist in the RN, RAN, RNZN, etc, they seem to have disappeared.  I figure we have resurrected them in Canada because "naval cadet" seems to be a more obvious equivalent to "officer cadet."  It's also worth noting that when we wore green, they were often addressed as "officer cadets."  It is really only with the introduction of the DEU that "naval cadet" came back into use and even then, it took many years for it to become common.  We can't replace A/SLt with "midshipman" because that rank level is commissioned and it is universally held that midshipmen are not commissioned.

Acting sub-lieutenants are most definitely addressed orally as "sub-lieutenant," but I have never seen the use of "commander" for lieutenant-commanders in Canada.  That is very much an American custom.  To add to what Oldgateboatdriver has said, the two and a half stripe badge was originally to used to differentiate senior lieutenants from junior lieutenants and the half stripe was added automatically upon reaching eight years seniority as a lieutenant.  The rank title change to 'lieutenant-commander" came later and actually originated as a mashing of titles for officers who were "lieutenants and commanders."  Whereas the army used the word "lieutenant" to modify a higher rank to describe a lesser rank (i.e. a "lieutenant-colonel" is a lesser "colonel"), the navy used, "commander" to raise certain lieutenants over others.

On a final note, it was only in the early 1960s that LCdr stopped being an automatic promotion in the RCN.  In most western navies it still is automatic, which may explain why we treat it as a senior officer while other navies treat it as a junior officer (Canadian LCdrs wear oak leaves on their caps while, RN, RAN, RNZN, USN LCdrs do not).


----------



## McG

Pusser said:
			
		

> Yes, the RCN had Acting Sub-Lieutenants, but this was a true "acting" rank.  They were dressed and paid as sub-lieutenants.  Today's acting sub-lieutenant is a substantive rank, which makes the title somewhat silly in my mind.  I like the way the Kiwis have gotten around it.  In the RNZN, their midshipmen equate with our NCdt and wear a white patch with a button on the lapel of their jackets.  The next RNZN rank is the ensign (the only Commonwealth navy that uses this as a rank title) who is equivalent to our A/SLt and wears a half-stripe with executive curl.  this is followed by the sub-lieutenant who wears a full stripe with executive curl and who is equivalent to our SLt who wears one and half stripes (with executive curl now )  The rest of the RNZN ranks are identical to ours.


I think I've seen this idea proposed for our navy somewhere here.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I would have no problem with  the A/SLt's becoming Ensigns. That would actually bring the rank in line with its French denomination in the CF regulations: A/Slt's are "enseigne de vaisseau - second class" and the actual Subs are "enseigne de vaisseau - first class" (Both adressed as "enseigne de vaisseau").

But please MCG: no Seargeants at sea - and why on earth would we want to introduce yet another level of "seaman" rank when we already have too many???

People may not realize this (I don't know how mny people are left in the service from those days) but one of the effects on the Navy of the introduction of the appointments of Master Seaman to "get in line" with the CF structure was a cheapening of the respect that leading hands had always garnered prior to that.


----------



## Pusser

As was described to me when I first joined, today's master seaman is yesterday's leading seaman (in terms of leadership responsibility).


----------



## Edward Campbell

Pusser said:
			
		

> As was described to me when I first joined, today's master seaman is yesterday's leading seaman (in terms of leadership responsibility).




It was a complete bugger's muddle in 1966. Despite whatever else he was trying to achieve, one of Mr. Hellyer's goals was to get us a pay raise. We were underpaid; there had been a series of panels and commissions that had, one after the other, recommended fairly large pay raises; successive Tory (Diefenbaker) and Liberal (Pearson) governments kept their wallets closed. Mr. Hellyer's solution (fashioned we joked, darkly, after the Congolese Army _circa_ 1962)* was to promote almost everyone! Thus "Hellyer corporals" and "instant captains."

Trust me, we were grateful for the pay raises - except for the few of us who made captain before 1967 and wondered (aloud) why others didn't have to jump through all our hoops, too. But we all recognized that we were all much better off when our junior ranks were adequately paid.


----------
* The Congolese Army was rioting and turning to banditry so the local government's solution was to promote everyone. Every single private was promoted to corporal and every corporal to sergeant and so on. It _bought_ peace ... for a few days, until even the Congolese soldiers realized that as there was no money for the old pay, there was even less for the newly promoted.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Trust me, we were grateful for the pay raises - except for the few of us who made captain before 1967 and wondered (aloud) why others didn't have to jump through all our hoops, too. But we all recognized that we were all much better off when our junior ranks were adequately paid.



Couldn't agree more, but there is a difference between granting adequate pay, which can be done at any rank, and rank inflation to achieve same "sneakily". If we accept the later as an acceptable method, we can hardly complain today that we are "overstaffed" with senior ranks and are "top heavy".

I know there are career "pyramids" to supposedly maintain lest the whole apparatus falls apart, but if proper incentive for time in are made available, there is nothing wrong IMHO with career Able Seaman and Lieutenants that we allow to stay in and provide with a decent living wage.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

Thats where pay level incentives could be changed, to allow for those that do not have leadership qualities or WANT the leadership responsibilities but enjoy their job/trade and are good at it.

Or they could think of doing something along the lines of other militaries where they have members of equal pay grade but different rank, where one is command/leadership minded, vs the other is specialty/trade minded. So you could still go up in pay grade and live well but also progress so to speak.

I think this or something like it would be good for us, because some people who have great technical know how but ZERO leadership skills/qualities/ambition, get promoted or forced to take promotions and end up being crap leaders or changing trades so as to be busted back down to CPL


----------



## Snakedoc

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Or they could think of doing something along the lines of other militaries where they have members of equal pay grade but different rank, where one is command/leadership minded, vs the other is specialty/trade minded.



I'm curious if you can give same examples of militaries that have this type of system (and where it has been successfully implemented)?


----------



## aesop081

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I'm curious if you can give same examples of militaries that have this type of system (and where it has been successfully implemented)?



The United States Army. Take a look at its non-commissioned ranks, in perticular the ranks of Specialist and Corporal (both E-4) and Master Sergeant and First sergeant ( both E-8).

http://www.army.mil/symbols/enlisteddescriptions.html


----------



## Snakedoc

Interesting, however I had the impression that Biggoals2bdone was speaking about it on a much larger scale?


----------

