# 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade



## Infanteer (23 Jan 2011)

Quick question, as internet searches don't seem to be providing clarity.  I see 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade (previously 1 Tank) as an independant brigade until 1943 (due to the still-birth of the 1st Canadian Armoured Division).  From this point, was it still independant or was it a subordinate formation of 1 Canadian Infantry Division for the rest of the war?


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## Old Sweat (23 Jan 2011)

The brigade was an independent formation throughout the war. Note that it went through some name changes, especially in the early years. It was conceived as an army tank brigade, which was different than an armoured brigade in equipment and employment. 

My RCAC history is at home, so I am unable to provide any more detail, but be advised that the changing CAC orbat 1940-1943 can be confusing without a good reference.


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## Michael OLeary (23 Jan 2011)

From the reference I have, it appears that it was broken up in 1943.

1st Armoured Brigade was redesignated the 11th Infantry Brigade by GO 282 of 1943 (eff 1 Jan 1943).

Its units were disposed as follows:

1st Cdn Armd Bde HQ Sqn (PEILH) redesignated 2nd Cdn Corps Defence Coy (PEILH)
2nd Armd Regt (LdSH(DC)) to 5th Cdn Armd Bde
6th Armd Regt (1H) to 3rd Army Tank Bde
10th Armd Regt (FGH) to 3rd Army Tank Bde

The Perth Regt (Motor) remained under comd the redesignated 11th Inf Bde HQ as "The Perth Regt"

Other units in the redesignated 11th Inf Bde were the 11th Independent MG Coy (PLF), The Cape Breton Highlanders, and the Irish Regiment of Canada.

BUT, THERE'S MORE:

By GO 88 of 1944, effective 26 Aug 1943, the 1st Army Tank Brigade was redesignated the 1st Armoured Brigade. (It is identified as an Independent Armoured Brigade but may have been regularly under command of 1 Cdn Div.)

Brigade units were (as of Aug 43):

11th Armd Regt (Ont R)
12th Armd Regt (TRR)
14th Armd Regt (Calg R)

(The reference I have is a set of complex flow charts trying to capture all the changes, so I may have mis-interpreted something, but that should give you a few more units to research to confirm changes.)

Commanders:

*1st Armd Bde *
Mar 1941 - Jan 1943: Brig TJ Rutherford

*1st Army Tank Bde / 1st Armd Bde*
Mar 1941 - Feb 1942:  Brig FF Worthington
Feb 1942 - Feb 1944: Brig RA Wyman
Feb 1944 - Jun 1944: Brig WC Murphy
Aug 1944 - Sep 1944: Lt Col RL Purves
Sep 1944 - Jun 1945:  Brig WC Murphy


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## Old Sweat (23 Jan 2011)

Let me try to clarify the situation.  Infanteer, I think what you referred to originally was the independent brigade of three armoured regiments that was first ttiled as an army tank brigade and then renamed an armoured brigade. Its units were as Micheal noted.

There was considerable turmoil in the CAC when the oprganization of the armoured divisions changed from two armoured brigades and a support group to an armoured brigade and an infantry brigade. All at one Canada ended up with two surplus brigades worth of units, and there were some unhappy moments as regients were disbanded, re-roled or whatever. However the independent brigade made up of the Ont R, TRR and the Calgary R remained intact, pronably because it was engaged in operations in the Med. It never was part of 1st Canadian Infantry Division and in fact was for a time used quite sparately from that formation because the two commanders hated one another. (Ain't office politics grand!)


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## Infanteer (24 Jan 2011)

It figures that wikipedia would be inaccurate.

So if I have this right, the Canadian Army during the Second World War had 4 Armoured Brigades; the independant 1st and 2nd Armoured Brigades and the 4th and 5th Armoured Brigades which were subordinate formations in the 4th and 5th Armoured Division.

Was there ever a 3rd?  Not knowing too much, it seems like there was a bit of upheaval prior to Sicily.


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## Michael OLeary (24 Jan 2011)

From what I have:

4th Cdn Div became the *4th Cdn Armd Div* in Jan 1942. Its subordinate formations were the 3rd and 4th Armd Bdes, and the 4th Armd Support Group.

*5th Cdn Armd Div* was estb as the 1st Armd Div in Feb 41 and redesignated the 5th Cdn Armd Div in 1942(?). Its subordinate formations were the 1st Armd bde (which became 11 th Inf Bde 1 Jan 1943) and 2nd Armd Bdes (renamed 5th Cdn Armd Bde 1 Jan 1943), and the 5th Armd Support Group.

The independent Armd Brigades were:

1st Army Tank Bde, renamed 1st Armoured Bde (26 Aug 1943)
2nd Army Tank Bde, renamed 3rd Army Tank Brigade (22 Jul 1943)
3rd Army Tank Bde, renamed 2nd Armoured Bde (22 Jul 1943)


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## TangoTwoBravo (24 Jan 2011)

Just to add a little bit, the 1st and 2nd Armoured Brigades were intended to support infantry divisions but were not organic to any given infantry division. Higher level commanders would assign them in support of infantry divisions. While they were equipped with Shermans by the time they got into action (Dieppe was the exception), I believe that the idea sprang from the Infantry Tank vs Cruiser Tank doctrine of the pre-war and early war. Infantry Tank brigades supported infantry divisions as alloted by Army commanders. I think that the Tank Brigades were meant to achieve breakthroughs with infantry divisions.
Cruiser tank regiments served in armoured divisions that would exploit. The armoured brigades in the two armoured divisions were organic to their respective divisions. By 1943 the line had blurred, but the idea remained and it allowed Army Commanders a method to quickly and dramatically augment an infantry division.

The 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade (Three Rivers Regiment, The Calgary Regiment and The Ontario Regiment) did indeed support 1st Canadian Division on several occasions (Ortona among them), but as was noted there were some personal differences between commanders that seems to have spoiled operations as the war progressed . In any case, they supported other British divisions throughout the campaign which was standard practice. The TRR's action at Termoli was in support of the 78th Division which seems to have preceded the command disagreements. The Ont R served with the 5th Division for a portion of the campaign.  At Liri Valley the brigade supported the 8th Indian Division and then the 78th Division once again. 

The 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade (1st Hussars, Sherbroke Fusiliers and Fort Gary Horse) served in Europe. They were initially associated with the 3rd Canadian Division due to the landings and immediate bridgehead battles, but as the campaign progressed they worked with 2nd Canadian Division and other British Divisions.

By the time it entered action the 4th Armoured Division included the 4th Armoured Brigade (GGFG, CGG and BCR plus a Motor Battalion (infantry)- Lake Superior Regt.) The other brigade in the division was the 10th Infantry Brigade. The 5th Armoured Division had the 5th Armoured Brigade (LdSH, 8CH and BCD plus the Westminster Regiment Motor Battalion). These armoured divisions also had Reconnaissance Regiments that were quite tank-heavy.

There were several re-organizations leading up the commitment of Canadian forces into action. The 1st Armoured Division had a brief life as a formation in training. The 5th Armoured Division training in Britain initially had two armoured brigades, neither of which deployed to war in their initial configurations (units got swapped around). To make it more fun, they were the 1st and 2nd Armoured Brigades! British experience in North Africa led to many changes, namely the inclusion of more infantry in the armoured division, thus the dropping of an armoured brigade an inclusion of an infantry brigade.

Anyhoo!


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2011)

We're having a military symposium down here in February. One of the topics is being presented by Professor Michael Boire, Royal Military College of Canada “Tanks in Tight Corners: *The First Canadian Armoured Brigade* in the Fight for Ortona, December 1943”. 

Here are his contact details and quick bio: http://www.rmc.ca/aca/his/per/boire-m-eng.asp 

I'm sure he can help you out.


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## always (11 Feb 2011)

my dad was tj rutherfords driver /batman from oct. 40 till feb 43 have almost daily letters from him to my mother they show unit, location place  his name was Albert R Warington  (Lucky) for ciggs he smoked having grown up in the states!
  
would really like to know he was for those three years i do know not out of gun shot of the brig!!  HELP please


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## Michael OLeary (11 Feb 2011)

Always, you can start by ordering a copy of your father's service record from Library and Archives Canada:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogie/022-909.007-e.html



> How to Send an Inquiry Concerning Your Own or Another Individual's Records
> 
> We try to answer inquiries within 30 days; however, due to the large number of inquiries being received, we are currently experiencing delays in our response times. Clients who submit a written request should expect to wait six months for a response. Priority service is given to people who require documentation to prove that they qualify for pensions, allowances, claims and other benefits, therefore, these types of requests should be clearly identified.
> 
> ...


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## always (11 Feb 2011)

thanks did that about a year ago many pages  but all on health guns rank not anything as to where in England was hopping you might tell things like where who"s castle which mayor and so on like i said he was never far from the brig


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## Michael OLeary (11 Feb 2011)

Then you next step could be to search the Library and Archives Canada databases for mention of any war diaries for the Brigade HQ.  And then seek copies of those.

For example:

Title - *Headquarters, 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade (formerly 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade) *
File part of War diaries [textual records (some microform), cartographic material] (R112-135-3-E)
Date(s) - 1941/02-1942/10

LINK


Title - *Headquarters Squadron and Heavy Support Squadron, 1st Army Tank Brigade (later 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade)* 
File part of War diaries [textual records (some microform), cartographic material] (R112-135-3-E)
Date(s) - 1939/08-1943/03

LINK


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## always (11 Feb 2011)

thank you thank you hope the pics were of help have more  at always53142@yahoo hope to be of help as always


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## Michaelboire (4 Mar 2011)

Fellow historians, my thanks to those researchers who participate in the ongoing discussion on the First Canadian Armoured Brigade (1CAB).  Your contributions have helped me considerably in my own research.  I would like to return the favor by sharing some important, but little known,  informartion with you all.  I am a retired armoured officer currently teaching Canada's military history at the Royal Military College of Canada.  My doctoral dissertation is on this famous brigade.   Here are some discoveries I have made during my research at the British National Archives London as well as our own Archives in Ottawa.  First, in their confidential correspondance, Montgomery and Leese, commanders of the British 8th Army during the Italian campaign, rated 1CAB as the best brigade in their army. One could understand that such a declaration made for public consumption by Canadian troops would be little more than a ploy to make the 'colonials' feel good about themselves. However, in the context of their personal corrspondance, it is clear that their judgement of the brigade's value to 8th Army was sincere. This I think is a significant assessment made by famous commanders of this last great Imperial and Commonwealth army . Second, it is clear that 1CAB spent most of its war supporting British divisions and corps.  That was by design: the Brits would not return 1CAB to its Canadian owners.  It is clear in the primary source documents that 1CAB fought the longest in the Italian campaign with 19 months in theatre.  No other formation of the 8th Army comes close to that record.  In second place is 1 Cdn Inf Div.  That 1CAB did not continuously support Canadian formations in Italy was not the result of personal differences between senior Canadian commanders who were in no position to refuse or reject armoured formations grouped to them by 'higher'. That these men may have disliked each other is clear in the record; that this could effect grouping was simply not possible.  Third, the reactions of 1CAB to German armour in Italy were far different from those of Canadian formations who fought in Normandy.  There, our crewmen faced the Panzers from Day One of that bloody campaign.  In Sicily and then in Italy, fortunate and unique circumstances allowed the crews of 1CAB to learn how to kill German tanks without great loss to themselves.Thank you for this opportunity to share.... Michael Boire


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## scout1081 (20 Jan 2016)

I am currently doing research for a book about the RCAC in WWII. I have found a lot but there are a few minor details I haven't been able to find. Pretty minor stuff but it would help to work these issues into the story to add authenticity. Hoping someone here can help

1) What ranks were most tankers? I know that the average solders were "Troopers" instead of Privates, and Tank commanders were usually Sgts. or Cpls. with one Officer per troop as troop commander. But was it normal for a gunner or driver to be a higher rank, maybe a Cpl or L.Cpl.?

2) Squads were commanded by Majors or Captains? Troops were commanded by 1st or 2nd Lieutenants? Was is normal for a Captain to command a Troop?

3) Did the tankers carry infantry weapons? I haven't been able to find this at all. I would imagine they would carry pistols? What pistols did they carry? Were they also issued with Enfields? Or Sten SMGs? Maybe a lucky guy would have a Thompson?  I have also heard that Stens were not popular in Italy as they were being stockpiled for the Normandy Invasion

4) Regiments had 3 Sqns (+1 HQ).  And each Sqn consisted of 5 troops of 3 Shermans each.  I am assuming that each troop had a number but I can find anything about it.  Sqns were "A" "B" "C", so would troops also be given a letter or were they numerical.  Also were tanks in a troop numbered?

Hoping someone here can help me out.  Thanks


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## Old Sweat (20 Jan 2016)

This is a rather complex issue because we had several organizations (and names) for armoured brigades in the Second World War depending upon the role and period of the war. If you have not, try to get a copy of the History of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps by John Marteinsen and Michael McNorgan.  

Short answer - in the final form we had four armoured brigades numbering one to five without three. Two (1st and 2nd) were army troops with a role of supporting infantry division, while the other two (4th and 5th) were part of the 4th and 5th Canadian Armoured Divisions respectively. All had three tank squadrons, each of four troops of four tanks, along with a headquarters squadron to provide administrative and logistics support. You can get an idea of the difference in employment of the two types of brigade by reading my book (it should be available on an inter-library loan) _No Holding Back: Operation Totalize, Normandy, August 1944_.

Hope this helps a bit. If you need anything else (I am in Arizona for the winter and do not have access to my library and files so what I can do may be limited) pm me.


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## scout1081 (20 Jan 2016)

ok maybe I should be a little more specific, might get me some more accurate answers.  I am doing research to write a story based on the 11th Canadian Armoured Regiment.  My plan is to write the story from the point of view of one Tank Commander and his crew as they fight their way through the war. I haven't quite decided on the Sqn yet, I'm still researching, and on that level I think I may be able to blend some info from other sqns to make the book more interesting.  It won't be a blow by blow history lesson of the unit, moreso a narrative from the point of view of an average soldier or group of soldiers and the adversity they may have faced.


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## Old Sweat (20 Jan 2016)

I'll ignore your comment on accuracy as you were not very precise in your request.

There was a quite good novel _Warriors for the Working Day_ about a British tank crew published in the sixties and Ken Tout, who served in a British tank crew in North-West Europe has written a number of well-received books about his experiences. One point - as noted these books are about the British Army and there were not too subtle differences in attitudes, social divisions and the rest between the British and Canadian Armies even back then.


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## mariomike (20 Jan 2016)

scout1081 said:
			
		

> I am doing research to write a story based on the 11th Canadian Armoured Regiment.





			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The 11th Armoured Regiment (The Ontario Regiment) continues today to be perpetuated by The Ontario Regiment, a reserve armour regiment located in Oshawa, Ontario.
> 
> If you contact the regiment, they may be able to assist with available copies of the Regiment's War Diary which may detail the events of 23 Oct 43.
> 
> ...


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## scout1081 (20 Jan 2016)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I'll ignore your comment on accuracy as you were not very precise in your request.



Sorry I think you may have taken my accuracy comment wrong, I meant that my question was very vague so I wanted to give more details so I could get more specific responses.  Accuracy was the wrong word to use.  Hope you weren't offended


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## Old Sweat (20 Jan 2016)

Let's move on. As you probably know C Squadron the 11th Armoured Regiment fought at Casa Berardi in 1943.


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Jan 2016)

scout1081 said:
			
		

> . . .  a story based on the 11th Canadian Armoured Regiment. . . .



http://localhistory.oshawalibrary.ca/pdfportal/pdfskins/11th/11th.pdf


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## scout1081 (20 Jan 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> http://localhistory.oshawalibrary.ca/pdfportal/pdfskins/11th/11th.pdf



I have that, part of the reason I chose the 11th.  Thanks though


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## Rod H (24 Jan 2016)

scout1081 - I can answer your four questions.

As this is my first post on this forum, I will give some background on myself. I was in The Ontario Regiment from 1984-1990 and left with the rank of Sergeant. I have spent the last five years researching and writing the updated, official history of the Ontarios. "Fidelis et Paratus: A History of The Ontario Regiment (RCAC) 1866-2016" will be published this spring. There will be a book launch at the Colonel R.S. McLaughlin Armoury in Oshawa on April 30, 2016 from 1400 - 1600 hours.

1. Most of the crew members were Troopers. Corporal were sometimes a member of the crew (other than being the crew commander). The troop leader may have had a Corporal in his crew - I would have to do some digging.

2. Squadrons were commanded by Majors and troops were commanded by Lieutenants. From the nominal rolls that I've seen, the Ontarios had very few Second Lieutenants on strength. It would have been unusual for a Captain to command a troop.

3. One Thompson SMG was carried by the gunner in each vehicle. The other four crew members carried .38 Smith & Wesson pistols. The Thompsons were turned in for Stens when the Ontarios relocated to northwest Europe in March 1945.

4. Troops were numbered 1, 2, 3... 15.


You should find a copy of "3 Troop" by Captain (retired) Malcom Sullivan. He was in the Ontarios during the war and the book covers his experiences. It is very informative and entertaining.

The DND DHH website has some good documents on 1 CAB. Have a look here: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/cmhqr-rqgmc-eng.asp


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