# Contract



## 18-and-ready (6 Feb 2007)

A three year contract is the minimum amount of time you can sign for but why would you want to sign for any longer?
are there any benefits to signing say a 5 year then a 3 year? And after you sign it and your 3 years are up is it as easy as signing another contract and staying longer or is there some sort of procedure? And do you have to redo any of your pretests before getting back in?

Just some random questions that I keep wondering

Thanks for your time


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2007)

18-and-ready said:
			
		

> And after you sign it and your 3 years are up is it as easy as signing another contract and staying longer or is there some sort of procedure?



Unless you are a total screw-up ( and even then i'm pushing it) thats pretty much all there is to it.  Before your current contrat expires, they will put a new one in front of you and tell you to sign if you plan on staying in.



> And do you have to redo any of your pretests before getting back in?



Do you mean redo tests everytime you sign a new contact ?  In that case no, you do not.


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## 18-and-ready (6 Feb 2007)

oh wow ok awesome thanks that helps

Are there any benifits to joining longer? i mean why would people sign 5 years when they can just sign 3 and renew.


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2007)

18-and-ready said:
			
		

> oh wow ok awesome thanks that helps
> 
> Are there any benifits to joining longer? i mean why would people sign 5 years when they can just sign 3 and renew.



terms of service have all changed in recent years.....When i joined, you only had one choice, 3 years.  Now, IIRC, certain trades have diferent initial contract lenghts but i believe 5 years is the new norm. Someone with more recent experience with TOS might be able to clarify that.  Its not like they show you a contract and ask "you want 3 or 5 years ?"


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## medic_man17 (6 Feb 2007)

With regards to terms of service, having some experience with recruiting, I believe that your initial contract strongly depends on your trade and the amount of training you have to undergo to make yourself employable and they factor in a bit of repayment in time served.  For example, an infanteer may only receive an initial contract of 3 yrs, however an aviation systems tech may require a longer engagement due to the extensive amount of training they must undergo before becoming employable as their trade.


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## scottyeH? (6 Feb 2007)

A lot of us had to resign another 3years and lots of us have only been in for 1.5years...but that says "were getting a tour in feb 08"...Lets see how it plays out.


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## CFR FCS (6 Feb 2007)

Each NCM MOSID  (occupation) has a Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) assigned to it. Many factors go into the length of the  terms of service and they include the time it takes to get basic occupation qualified and the health of the trade. Some are three, 4 or five years. Also the second TOS length offer is MOSID dependant some  go right to a 25 year contract and others have more options. Your friendly recruiting centre has more details.  Early re engagement offers are usually required before you can attend higher level occupational training like your five's (Corporal's) course or your current TOS will expire while you are on a tour.


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## LukerB (11 Oct 2008)

Hello everyone,

I've been doing some research for about 6 months regarding joining the CF and decided it was time I make an account on these forums. I tried searching for this a few times so apologies if it's already been asked. 
I have a question regarding the CFAT. I really want to join infantry. I have a friend who is in PPCLI 1st Battalion Edmonton, he just got back from Afghanistan and he said he couldn't see himself doing anything else right now. Anyhow point being, I've been interested in joining the infantry for a while now. I started reading up on the CFAT amongst other things on these forums. I've been putting together a list of questions for the past couple of weeks to bring into the recruiting center next week. 
I figured I would just ask this one quickly here. I'm going to be graduating with a degree in Police Foundations come December, through Georgian College. I was looking at RCMP for a while but its really taken a back seat to the CF because this is something I've always wanted to do and feel passionate about (though my parents don't support the idea). I'm just wondering if I write the CFAT and I qualify for positions other then infantry, do I HAVE to take one of those positions? I realise that you only have to have grade 10 highschool to qualify for infantry. I guess what I'm asking is will I not be "allowed" to join the infantry because I have a higher level of education then grade 10 highschool?
Basically my plan is to join the CF as infantry, do that and then "transfer" (is it called a remuster? Sorry..im new to the terminology) over to an MP or get out and go for the RCMP when I feel I'm ready. My ultimate goal is to be a police officer as that's what I've gone to school and studied for. But recently I've realised that I need to do what im passionate about right NOW, not to mention my instructor said that ex-military guys have a better chance of getting into the RCMP due to the discipline and maturity it shows.

Any help with this would be great guys, sorry for the long post. I tend to ramble.

Luke.


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## PMedMoe (11 Oct 2008)

You do not HAVE to take any trade you do not want.  The CFAT score only determines if you qualify for the trade(s) you have asked for.  If you apply and only want to go infantry, put that as your only choice (no second or third) and don't accept any other offer.  It is your choice.


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## LukerB (11 Oct 2008)

Well that clears that up perfectly. Thank you very much for your help!


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## Celticgirl (11 Oct 2008)

LukerB said:
			
		

> I realise that you only have to have grade 10 highschool to qualify for infantry. I guess what I'm asking is will I not be "allowed" to join the infantry because I have a higher level of education then grade 10 highschool?



There are Infantry Officers as well as NCMs. Officers require a degree, so that is one avenue to consider.



			
				author LukerB said:
			
		

> Basically my plan is to join the CF as infantry, do that and then "transfer" (is it called a remuster? Sorry..im new to the terminology) over to an MP or get out and go for the RCMP when I feel I'm ready. My ultimate goal is to be a police officer as that's what I've gone to school and studied for. But recently I've realised that I need to do what im passionate about right NOW, not to mention my instructor said that ex-military guys have a better chance of getting into the RCMP due to the discipline and maturity it shows.



I'm confused by this part. If you want to be a police officer, why are you not now applying to the RCMP and/or to the CF as an MP or MPO? Why start out in infantry when you clearly don't plan to remain there? Are you just trying to pad your resume for the RCMP?


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## LukerB (11 Oct 2008)

No I've always wanted to join the infantry. Even before I started Police Foundations 2 years ago. I just wanted to get an education after highschool, and I've done that. My plan is to join the infantry (hopefully, I'm going to talk to a recruiter next week to see if this is right for me) and stick with it for as long as I want. If I decide its not for me after a while, or if things change, then yes I have a degree in PF and would be able to do that for the rest of my life as opposed to infantry. Whether I transfer to an MP or get out and join the RCMP I dont know. I might just stay infantry my whole life if I like it that much. I can't really give you a for sure answer I guess is what I'm saying.


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## CFR FCS (11 Oct 2008)

Your CFAT score opens the door but you choose the path. Some occupations are much harder to qualify for and recruiting staff will ensure you are aware of all your choices. However the bottom line is until you sign the enrolment documents you are still in charge of your destiny. If you only want Infantry then go for it But make sure you are aware of the details on contract length and when you are allowed to remuster. one tour as Infantry might be a great learning experience but two or three while waiting for your time in to qualify for remuster, which is not guaranteed, might prove challenging. Do your research, ask questions and make your informed decision. 

Good Luck and let us know what you decide.


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## LukerB (11 Oct 2008)

Great advice, and very true. Though it is my understanding that infantry have 3 year contracts?
Actually, while I've got your attention I'd like to dispel a possible rumour. My buddy in the CF (the one i was referring to) told me that you sign contracts every 3 years with infantry.
Another guy at work that was artillery for 5 years told me he signed 3 at the start, then he had to sign another contract for 22 years if he wanted to stay in.
Any thoughts on this?


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## George Wallace (11 Oct 2008)

As PMedMoe said, the CFAT only determines if you have the aptitude to be trained in the Trades that YOU have selected.



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You do not HAVE to take any trade you do not want.  The CFAT score only determines if you qualify for the trade(s) you have asked for.  If you apply and only want to go infantry, put that as your only choice (no second or third) and don't accept any other offer.  It is your choice.



Now to clear up another misconception.  You can join the Reserves as an Infanteer with only a Grade 10 and still attending High School.  You are expected to Graduate High School while still serving, and to bring in you final Transcripts to be put on your Pers File.  You require a High School Diploma to join the CF Regular Forces.  Please read FIRST OFF - Do you meet the 3 CRITERIA ?

Just a note to Reservists who would like to CT to the Regular Force, if you joined the Reserves while in Grade 10 and have not brought in a copy of your transcript proving your graduation from High School, then your file will be put on hold until such transcripts are provided.


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## George Wallace (11 Oct 2008)

LukerB said:
			
		

> Great advice, and very true. Though it is my understanding that infantry have 3 year contracts?
> Actually, while I've got your attention I'd like to dispel a possible rumour. My buddy in the CF (the one i was referring to) told me that you sign contracts every 3 years with infantry.
> Another guy at work that was artillery for 5 years told me he signed 3 at the start, then he had to sign another contract for 22 years if he wanted to stay in.
> Any thoughts on this?



Depending on your Trade, and your Personal Evaluation Reports as to your skills, attitude, etc. you may be offered a second 3 year contract after your first initial engagement.  If you really show potential, you may be offered the 22 year contract after your first three years.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Oct 2008)

The new TOS covers all of this info, namely ADM (HR-MIL) Instruction 05/05, THE NEW CF REGULAR FORCE TERMS OF SERVICE.

More specifically, you would be looking for ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 ANNEX A APPENDIX 1, TOS SEQUENCE BY OCCUPATION - NCMS (Updated 28 Feb 08).

As you can see there, different MOCs have different TOS Sequences.  Those trades that do a CE after the VIE have CEs varying between 3-5 years.  

If you aren't sure what VIE and CE and all that stuff means, before you ask here, go back and read ADM (HR-Mil) Instr 05/05 again, they are all in there.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Oct 2008)

LukerB said:
			
		

> Great advice, and very true. Though it is my understanding that infantry have 3 year contracts?
> Actually, while I've got your attention I'd like to dispel a possible rumour. My buddy in the CF (the one i was referring to) told me that you sign contracts every 3 years with infantry.
> Another guy at work that was artillery for 5 years told me he signed 3 at the start, then he had to sign another contract for 22 years if he wanted to stay in.
> Any thoughts on this?



What you were told is correct information, as Infantry and Artillery have different TOS sequences.  So they are not rumours, they are policy.  

Infantry do a VIE 3, a CE 3 and then a 19 year contract for IE 25.  Artillery MOCs do a VIE of 3 years and then are offered a 22 year contract for IE 25.  

However, if they do not want to sign a 22 year contract for IE 25, they could ask for a CE for "x" amount of years, but there is no quaruntee they will get it.  Thats when the mbr, his unit, and DMCARM/Career Manager get involved.  

This is all based on assuming the CF is interested in keeping the member past their VIE.  For what happens the if the CF is not interested in keeping the mbr post-VIE, refer to ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05, should start somewhere around Para 46 IIRC.


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## Highlander60 (13 Oct 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I'm confused by this part. If you want to be a police officer, why are you not now applying to the RCMP and/or to the CF as an MP or MPO? Why start out in infantry when you clearly don't plan to remain there? Are you just trying to pad your resume for the RCMP?



Lots of people join the infantry for their own personal development, and the collateral benefits include an outstanding 3 or 4 years of experience on their resume. Of course, if I had it my way, everyone joining the military would be in the infantry for their first 3 years..........I also know the RCMP recruiter in Fredericton, and they love guys with military experience and some life skills, but are also happy with new recruits who have taken some sort of police sciences at school.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Oct 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> if I had it my way, everyone joining the military would be in the *infantry* for their first 3 years..........



I agree with this point only I would change infantry to combat arms.


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## Highlander60 (14 Oct 2008)

OK I would like to point out that my opinion of having everyone spend their first contract in the infantry is just that, an opinion. It sure would not work in our country and recruiting would slide. There are also many trades we would never find suitable recruits for if they had to spend their first 3 or 4 years in the combat arms. I will say that at one point we had something called LOTRP, which if I have it right means Land Occupational Transfer Program, where members could get in with a combat arms trade and then after 4 years transfer over to a trade of their choice that was open. I guess what I should have said was the discipline, leadership, can do attitude, skills, and team work ethic that combat arms trg offers would benefit anyone whether it be within the military or any other occupation. That is all I am going to say on this topic before the hole I am digging gets too big for me to get out of.


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## Sythen (14 Oct 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now to clear up another misconception.  You can join the Reserves as an Infanteer with only a Grade 10 and still attending High School.  You are expected to Graduate High School while still serving, and to bring in you final Transcripts to be put on your Pers File.  You require a High School Diploma to join the CF Regular Forces.  Please read FIRST OFF - Do you meet the 3 CRITERIA ?



You do not need your high school to join the infantry in either reserves or reg force. If you don't have it, you are encouraged to get it, but never forced. I don't have mine and have never encountered a problem. Probably 1/3 of my platoon doesn't either.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Oct 2008)

I think the LOTRP was the old Land Operations Trade Reassignment Program,  now it is LOTP (Land Occupation Transfer Program), part of the Occupation Transfer Of Non-Commissioned Members - Regular Force (CFAO 11-12).  Details for LOTP are found in Annex C.

Same thing, different name...and the qualifying time now for LOTP is more than 3 but less than 6 years of continuous service.


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## xbowhntr (4 Jan 2009)

My local recruiting office provided me with a list of contract durations for officer positions. I was wondering if there is a similar list for NCM positions. I have searched this sit along with forces.ca and have been unable to uncover one. Any help would be appreciated. I am specifically interested in the contract duration for AVN TECH but have an interest in scanning all trades.

Thanks,
Rich


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## George Wallace (4 Jan 2009)

Go to Reply # 16             or      SEARCH     "Terms of Service".


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