# Standard Personal Weapon in the CF?



## william (25 Nov 2004)

I did a search and couldn't find what the Canadian Forces are using for the standard weapon.
Some people say its the C-8 and others say its the C-7.

What is it?

Oh, and by the way I'm only in cadets and I don't know anybody in the army so I have no way of knowing whats issued.


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## Ex-Dragoon (25 Nov 2004)

The C7A1 is used as the the standard assault rifle with the C8 seeing issue as well with Armoured and those that need a more compact weapon.


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## pegged (25 Nov 2004)

The C8 works well for Urban Warfare too, we used them in training this past weekend.


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## pbi (25 Nov 2004)

Here's a question that I've always wondered about. I probably should know the answer, but I don;t.

Prior to the introduction of the 5.56mm SA family, in the Infantry we had the Stirling 9mm submachine gun with folding butt. Now, while this was a rather crude (and occasionally dangerous.....) little beast, it did give Section Commanders, Drivers, Sp Wpn Crews, Sigs, etc a nice compact weapon to use. So, when we went to the 5.56mm family, why didn't we replace the SMGs with C-8s on a one for one basis? As far as I know, they were only issued to Armour units. What's the difference between an AFV crewman in the Inf (who used to carry an SMG) and an AFV crewman in the Armour (who used to carry an SMG and now carries a C8?). Anybody out there know the history? Cheers.


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## Scoobie Newbie (26 Nov 2004)

In roto 0 some of the boys had C8's.  I agree though that all Lav crews should have C8's and pistols.


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## Roche (26 Nov 2004)

C7's are no good for OBUA, C8's are small enough to do the trick rather well, so its good that we've got them


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## william (26 Nov 2004)

Ok, thanks guys


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## foerestedwarrior (27 Nov 2004)

C7A2 is now being pushed through the system, operational right now, dont know if reg force batttalions are getting them yet, i expect we will see them in the reserves when we get our small packs, like 2-3 years.


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## Jinxed (29 Nov 2004)

C7A1 is used by everyone to my knowledge, but the C7A2's are being pushed into reg force combat units who don't need a close quarters weapon.

Sig Ops supposedly are supposed to get C8's along with armor guys but in the reserves, we likely won't see Sigs with C8's for years to come.


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## foerestedwarrior (30 Nov 2004)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> C7A1 is used by everyone to my knowledge, but the C7A2's are being pushed into reg force combat units who don't need a close quarters weapon.
> 
> Sig Ops supposedly are supposed to get C8's along with armor guys but in the reserves, we likely won't see Sigs with C8's for years to come.



all infantry need weapons able to do CQB. The C7 is fine for it, just the C8 is much better for it.


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## KevinB (30 Nov 2004)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> all infantry need weapons able to do CQB. The C7 is fine for it, just the C8 is much better for it.



I will dispute that issue - the C7 is not fine in fact it sucks - yes you can do it - but you cannot do properly hallway and entry drills with it 

I mean I did FIBUA with a FN in my Basic but it does not mean it worked.

In fact I think we shoudl also be lookign at the C8CQB uppers as even the C8SFW I had in Afghan was a bit large for some stuff we did


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## foerestedwarrior (30 Nov 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I will dispute that issue - the C7 is not fine in fact it sucks - yes you can do it - but you cannot do properly hallway and entry drills with it
> 
> I mean I did FIBUA with a FN in my Basic but it does not mean it worked.
> 
> In fact I think we shoudl also be lookign at the C8CQB uppers as even the C8SFW I had in Afghan was a bit large for some stuff we did



I Know they arn't great, and i know you have infinate more experiance than me, but i have done fibua with the sim kits on a full rifle, and we did it. The new sim kits have the C8 length barrrel, and they are much better. I think we should invest in the C8's I think there is only like a 5% drop in accuracy between the C8 and the C7, but what would the cost to do this be?


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## Morpheus32 (30 Nov 2004)

I concur with Kevin, the C7 is too long for CQB drills.   It can be done but is not the best.   Notice the marines in Falluja with the stock over their shoulders trying to negotiate stairwells and rooms.   Not the best way of doing things.   A quick note.   Changing from C7 to C8 will only result in a loss of velocity, not accuracy.   The rule of thumb is 50 fps per inch of barrel.   Velocity is an issue for terminal ballistics and the relative drop of the projectile in flight due to the reduced velocity.   It is not really an issue at CQB ranges.

Jeff


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## brin11 (30 Nov 2004)

pbi,

Oh my god, you're making sense, now stop that!


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## Britney Spears (1 Dec 2004)

> Notice the marines in Falluja with the stock over their shoulders trying to negotiate stairwells and rooms.



Yup, just ask him.












C7, with the C79 sight, is only slightly lighter than the FN C1. A C8, with thinner barrel and iron sights, feels like a toy compared to them.  I wonder what our British comrades must have thought when they recieved a 5.56mm rifle that is almost exactly the same weight as the old FN.


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## Infanteer (1 Dec 2004)

Wonder if he got that PPSH issued....


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Wonder if he got that PPSH issued....



I think he's watched Cross of Iron too many times...hope it works out for him.


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## KevinB (1 Dec 2004)

Not exactly the best system for precision room clearing    .   

The Brits got pooched with the SA80 and SA80A2 no if ands or butts about it.

 The velocity drop from the 4" decrease of barrel from the   20" C7 to the 16" SFW barrel is the same drop (within 20fps) as the 1.5" decrease from the SFW to the 14.5" C8.   There is no decrease in accuracy from the C7 to the SFW.
From what I was told recently (last two weeks) from the Infantry School Small Arms cell is that the infanteer will get two uppers a C7 and SFW and a C7A2 lower then the solider can use what the more appropriate upper is (SFW) for the situation.   This the same as the C9A2 getting two different barrel lengths


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## Morpheus32 (1 Dec 2004)

Here are a couple of examples of what Kevin and I are talking about:





















The rifle is a bit to long and awkward for some of the activities.   The marines are making it work but it is not ideal.

Jeff


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## foerestedwarrior (1 Dec 2004)

that last pic, is how we were doing FIBUA in pet with the sim masks on, its th e only way to aim, and i DO agree with you guys on it. Now if they actually do issue the two barrels, i would be interested to see how that works out. Would you keep one in your jeep/carrier. Or have it slung on your back for patrols incase you have to go into a  town?


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## Britney Spears (1 Dec 2004)

> The Brits got pooched with the SA80 and SA80A2 no if ands or butts about it.



My apologies to our British readers, but truly, the L85 series of rifles is an endless source of amusement for the rest of NATO.

"You English must have the smartest soldiers in the world."

           - Mikhail Kalashnikov, upon inspecting a copy of the L85 while visiting the UK. Source and dates availible upon request.


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## KevinB (1 Dec 2004)

foerestedwarrior - My guess is CQ

 Unless you are fighting in a FLAT desert the C7 barrel does you no good - especially once the section DM (AR10T) gets fielded.

Brit SOF is now using the C8SFW (guess the regular folk where not worth it...)


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## lostmuskrat (1 Dec 2004)

I wonder how old that PPSh is . . .


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## HollywoodHitman (1 Dec 2004)

Without a doubt we should all be issued the C8. The versatility of the weapon is much better than the C7. Since we're using civvy pattern vehicles alot on tours now, there is no way to adequately bring a C7 into proper use. I recently participated in a demo, showing pictures of C8's vs C7's in vehicles. Some moron in Ottawa wanted justification for the use of C8's for this particular unit. 

I hate to say it, but it was another example of some chair warmer who didn't want to part with some equipment which should have been in place on the unit's TO&E in the first place. Common sense no?

In the end we won the argument, but the extra work my boss had to do, while already overburdened with nausiatingly redundant administrative paperwork, was ridiculous. Not to mention that we were not operating in the field doing our jobs on the day we had to do this.

C8's are small enough to be fired through windshields, which will aid in the withdrawl of personell to safer areas if needed. A C7 is simply too big to do this in a confined space. And the others are right. The C7 is garbage for CQB and that my friends is where we will be doing the majority of our fighting from now on.

TM


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