# Sleep Issues on course [MERGED]



## northern girl

Hi - so I hope this isn't a ridiculous question, but here goes...I've struggled with falling asleep at night for years...I don't take medication, I just toss and turn until my mind finally exhausts itself. In truth I can operate really well on four hours of sleep...but I've recently tried listening to a relaxation exercise on my ipod, and have found it works wonders. So my question is where does the army come down on the issue of ipods during training, deployment etc.

Like I said, it's not the end of the world to only get a few hours of sleep per night - I've been doing it for years, and fully expect that many nights of training and field exercises and deployment will deny me more than a few winks at a time - but having finally found a solution I'm wondering if I can keep using it depending on where I am and what I'm doing, or if I"ll have to turn it over.

Trust me, I expect a certain degree of pain and exhaustion - I know that sleep deprivation is one of the best ways to test a soldier's ability to operate under stress. I'm also guessing that part of what's keeping me awake right now is the excitement and level of uncertainty about what direction my career is going to be taking me, and that as training intensifies and my body and mind are increasingly exhausted the problem might work itself out...but as Jason Bourne said, rest is a weapon (smile, joke, I know this isn't fiction - humour is my main source of relief to deal with exhaustion)

I can imagine that people who are deployed are under incredible stress, and probably some of them also have issues with sleep...what are some techniques and permissible solutions that I can try working on now while I still have the time? Any advise or shared personal experience is appreciated.

Thanks, and cheers.


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## armychick2009

Hi Northern girl, from the other northern girl!

I'm actually interested in this as well. I've heard conflicting information pertaining to this... am wondering if an MP3 player/Ipod is one of those things you have to keep in the boot box and can use on weekends with free time?

Glad to hear you found something that is working


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## Lil_T

Normally, and depending on your course staff, your electronics are taken away from you for the indoc period (first 4 weeks).  After which time, again, depending on your course staff, you may be given your electronics back on weekends only - or you may be permitted to have them at the end of the day. My old platoon didn't get their electronics back til week 8.  So it's not something you can count on.  Having these items is a privilege not a right while on course.  As for having them to help you sleep, I can see that as being a big no.  Being that if they allow you to have your ipod to sleep, they'd have to give it to everyone.  

Feel free to bring them with you.  Just be prepared to forfeit them.  You'll get them back eventually


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## MSEng314

It depends a lot on the course staff, we got our stuff back after indoc in week 4 and we could use it as soon as we were finished training for the day, but it couldn't leave the floor.

The platoon who started a few weeks behind us got to keep their electronics the whole time, even during indoc, and could use them pretty much any time they weren't training.

So by all means bring it, your staff will tell you when you can use it, and under what circumstances.


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## aesop081

northern girl said:
			
		

> So my question is where does the army come down on the issue of ipods during training, deployment etc.






> Like I said, it's not the end of the world to only get a few hours of sleep per night -



Call me crazy but even though alot has changed since i did basic, by the time 2300 rolled around each day, we were all too tired to worry about falling asleep or not.

People need to stop worrying about small details. People have been doing this for decades without iPods..........


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## armyvern

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> People need to stop worrying about small details. People have been doing this for decades without iPods..........



I just carry on not sleeping - been doing it for years. For the OP: I'm an insomniac - no drugs or other ...

There's a bonus in that when in the field or on Ops --- I've got the "shiitty" stove watchs looked after and when shifting, my troops get sent home early because I'm going to be there working anyway because "I'm up anyway."

Other than that, music has never worked for me (although the french course is sometimes able to suck the life out of me) so I just surf the net here. Makes me feel somewhat productive between 0100-0500 hrs.  :-\


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## MSEng314

If you are lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you look at it) St. Jean may still be under H1N1 restrictions: 2200 lights out on regular evenings, or 2100 lights out if you PT the next morning.

Personally I would have rather had the extra two hours of working time, my parade boots would have looked much better, among other things....

Oh well, you get used to life there no matter what, just takes time.


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## BearPusher

Well for BMQ the St. Jean list music players as restricted at the discretion of your course instructors, while on the Borden list music players are prohibited and will be taken away and returned upon departing. Just think you're already used to working with little sleep, so you've got a head start on things.


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## northern girl

Thanks for everyone's info...I guess I'll just see what happens when I get there.

Now, for the next three months, I'm going to reduce the number of pillows in my bed from 7 to 1.  I don't think the instructors would appreciate me showing up with two body pillows for 3 am snuggling :


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## Pusser

Training and exercises are one thing, but I would say that in most operational situations, iPods/MP3 players, etc are a BAD idea.  In fact, any kind of headphone that isn't job-related is essentially prohibited on board ship (although you are normally permitted to listen to audio 'letters" from home or wear a headset while exercising).  The reason is simple, you need all your senses, particularly when asleep, to ensure you can react to emergencies.  Note that when the alarm goes, the bare minimum standard to get to your station - fully dressed and ready to go - is six minutes.  This means you need to wake up and start moving immediately.  You can't wait for your brain to sort through the "soothing music" to realize that there is an alarm sounding.  If one of your buddies has fallen into the North Atlantic in January, he would appreciate it if the Rescue Watch closed up even sooner!


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## MasterInstructor

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> If you are lucky (or unlucky, depending on how you look at it) St. Jean may still be under H1N1 restrictions: 2200 lights out on regular evenings, or 2100 lights out if you PT the next morning.
> 
> Personally I would have rather had the extra two hours of working time, my parade boots would have looked much better, among other things....
> 
> Oh well, you get used to life there no matter what, just takes time.



Those restrictions sound very nice


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## armyvern

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> Those restrictions sound very nice



Odds are that a person would be bagged and ready for bed by then anyway.


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## northern girl

"You can't wait for your brain to sort through the "soothing music" to realize that there is an alarm sounding."

Not to worry - 10 or 15 minutes of "soothing music" at a really really low volume is enough to get me to sleep - the device goes into sleep mode after that amount of time and I"m out like a light...worked like a charm last night - bed at 11:30, asleep by 11:45, wide awake and ready for another day at 3:45. The concept of a solid 8 hour sleep is a distant memory for me.


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## RubberTree

If soothing music helps you sleep and stops you from tossing and turning it sounds like you have more of a sleep pattern problem as opposed to insomnia. True insomniacs (as I'm sure Vern can tell you) can't seem to fall asleep no matter what. 
What this all boils down to is its all about patterns. If you lie in bed every night for 4 hours tossing and turning, your body gets used to that pattern and will continue it. If you fall asleep to music...it will get used to that as well. The advantage of BMQ is that you will be so exhausted, chances are your body will just sleep...regardless of how much music there is around.


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## armyvern

As a side note to another bonus (being that I'm in the shacks ...) I did get my laundry done in the O Dark Thirty hours this morning. 

All the washers AND all the dryers were free!!  ;D


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## northern girl

Rubber Tree - I believe there's different types of "insomnia" - some can't fall asleep for the life of them, others wake up continuously throughout the night etc. The issue of patterns is probably bang on with me though - good thing I have a couple months to work through some of this...and yes, I'll probably be so exhausted once training starts that it will cease to be an issue. On the other hand, if this "pattern" persists, I'll have the advantage of getting my laundry done in the wee hours like ArmyVern has pointed out...a silver lining to every cloud, right?


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## CountDC

have you talked to a doctor about this?  I had the same problem for years, put it down as patterns developed from working/partying all night and lived with it.  2 years ago I talked to the doc, went to the sleep lab and found out I actually have sleep apnea (which I never thought of as I was under the belief that it was only extreme overweight people that suffered it).   Depending on the results surgery or a breathing aparatus may be used (military issued mine but I am going to talk to the doc again about surgery, D9 not happy with the darth vader sound effects).


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## forumdood007

I can relate...never enough sleep. I think my problem started 6 years ago while undergoing chemotherapy. That stuff messed up a few things, including giving me tinnitus and causing insomnia, both normal side effects. I was prescribed zopiclone for the insomnia and was told that it is non habit forming. I still take it occasionally and was thinking that I would not be allowed to bring it with me to BMQ. I also find background music helpful as well as using one of those cheap noise generators. The ones that pump out storm, waves, rainforest type sounds. So, without these tools, I am counting on having BMQ wear me out completely and when my head hits the pillow at 11, I am out till 5....crossing my fingers, lol


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## MasterInstructor

forumdood007 said:
			
		

> I am counting on having BMQ wear me out completely and when my head hits the pillow at 11, I am out till 5....crossing my fingers, lol



Same, I don't think I will have any problem with people snoring or anything... At home I have issues as well...


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## northern girl

My brother just started BOTC a few days ago - he had the same issues with falling asleep and staying asleep as mentioned in this thread - he says it's not an issue anymore! After a full day of mental and physical activity ( and non-stop marching wherever they go - he says they look so awkward still!) 5 am comes pretty quickly. I imagine most people, and hopefully myself, will find the same...

I am still curious about hearing from someone who's actually been deployed and who has experience trying to quiet the mind after a chaotic day...I can only imagine at this point what it's like to have bullets fired at you and then try to lay your head down and catch a few hours of sleep...thoughts of home, thoughts of the people you're responsible for...I'm sure everyone responds differently, but I'd be really interested to hear from someone with experience about how able they were to "adjust" (if that's the right word?) or cope with this...


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## Gunner98

On deployment - you can try reading, talking with others, chatting on the net or writing a journal - each of these activities can help put things in perspective before going to sleep.  If you have issues with accomplishing things during your day that keep you up at night then try making a list of issues or doing simple puzzles - Sudoku, crosswords, find-a-words.  Anything to provide distraction and settle the mind for even a few minutes can begin the wind-down process necessary to begin to fall asleep.  

If you begin to get restless don't fight it, get up and try another restful activity (re-start the wind-down.)  If you want to fight it, then try doing simple math patterns with eyes closed in a relaxing position - count backward from 200 or 100 by 3, 7 or doing multiplication of simple odd numbers (3,7,13).  Chuckle if you like but these activities have helped me for years in many stressful situations - courses, deployment, globe-trotting, while in hospital, university, and of course while lying beside a snoring wife.


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## northern girl

thanks simian...I do the math thing sometimes without even consciously trying to - the mind just starts going through the motions, and yeah, it's exhausting! The old adage about counting sheep has been around for a while - must be for a reason.


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## Pusser

An important thing to remember is to take a little "me" time periodically.  Even if it's just for a few minutes, you should try to sit down, clear your thoughts and think about things that make you happy, read a book or just veg (NB:  when you're on task as the leader on BMQ, it's not a good time to do this).  If you constantly try to stay switched on, you will crumble and then you're not doing anyone any good.  If you're in the Megaplex, GET OUTSIDE EVERYDAY, even if it's just for a walk.


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## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Just curious, but several people already (the chronic insomniacs) have mentioned getting up and doing stuff when they can't sleep. Do none of you find that doing that makes it worse?
I can't ever remember a time when I've slept properly, but I find (especially during really bad stretches) that my body much prefers the rest that I can get from simply laying in bed. If I get up to do anything, I just look like a zombie...running into walls, forgetting to open doors before trying to go through them, etc. 
Does staying up help y'all fall asleep or have you just gotten bored of laying there and not doing anything?


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## Ascendant

Have any of you guys with sleep problems tried supplementing with GABA, ZMA or melatonin?


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## PMedMoe

Kratos said:
			
		

> Have any of you guys with sleep problems tried supplementing with GABA, ZMA or melatonin?


All of which are more than likely not allowed on BMQ.


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## Ascendant

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> All of which are more than likely not allowed on BMQ.



Was talking more about in general...


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## northern girl

Jules - I saw a doctor about this issue and she told me to not stay in bed for more than 15 minutes if I didn't fall asleep right away - get up, walk around for a minute, read a book, listent o some tunes, brush your teeth - whatever. Bed, she said, is for the 2 "s"'s sleep and the other one vegging in bed for hours CAn make it harder to sleep if you start to associate bed with anything other than its intended uses.

As to melatonin and other aides, I've been told that melotonin works much better on older people than younger people - it's a natural chemical in the body, but older people feel the effects of it much easier than younger. I've tried it and it doesn't help.

As an aside, I saw a urologist recently, because while struggling to get to sleep I'd have to visit the bathroom WAY too many times before finally falling asleep - he told me to cut off the coffee, completely, and to practice some de-stressing exercises (mental and physical) before heading to bed...both stress and caffeine produce mass amounts of adrenaline in the body, which in turn produces mass amounts of urine...would not want to be the one always calling "guys wait up - I just have to pee! - so I took his advice to heart, and even though I miss my morning coffee sooooo much, I"ve been sleeping much better for the past couple weeks.


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## ballz

I'm convinced I have the worst sleep issues in the world, as I posted in what's now the sleep superthread. Other than Monday nights though, I never had many problems with it on basic. 

I'm also doing a no-carb thing right now which I'm starting to believe might allow me to sleep. You could try eating all your carbs before 12-1 pm, and that might help, but I'm no doctor or nutritionist... Everything I'm reading online now says that eating carbs before bed might calm you down. I can't make any sense of that. Carbs are from sugar and give you energy... Oh well, I'll stop rambling now. EDIT: Apparently only complex carbs are good before bed... I still don't buy it haha.

I've used melatonin lately... I find it works well for keeping me asleep instead of waking up repeatedly, and allowing me to sleep for more than 4-6 hours at at time, but it never helped me "get to sleep" like I was hoping it would. I only use it now for certain screwed up situations that I get myself into with sleep (ie needing to stay asleep for 10-12 hrs).


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## SimonM

Hey guys,

Im starting BMQ in about two weeks and i was wondering what kind of sleeping habits i should take before getting there to get myself used to it. What time should i got to bed, get up and also what time to do my PT. Any additional advice is appreciated.


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## caro.line.101

You speak french ?


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## SimonM

Oui


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## caro.line.101

J'ai vue que Oui. Comme j'ai posté dans un autre Forum dans la section française voici mes advices:



''Je ne veux pas rire mais maudit que c la que j'suis happy d'être bi-polaire et que si je me médicamente pas (la partie pour dormir) BAH JE DORS PAS !

Le truc, quand je travaillais dans des hôpitaux sur des grosses gardes... si tu sais qu'il te reste 5 heures a dormir... en dormir 2 ou 3 est mieux que 5... ça va selon les cycles de sommeils.... REM, 1 2 3 4... dort un peu comme les médecins  Je faisais aussi des power nap sur des civières de 30 a 45 minutes... ce qui me permettait de fonctionner le restant de la journée.

Je suis beaucoup plus fonctionnel avec 2 heures de sommeil dans le corps que 5. Évidement, probablement pas tout le monde qui est comme moi.

Je vais tenter de te trouver des liens car malheureusement mon article figure dans une magasine papier que j'ai à la maison alors difficile pour moi de te le poster et de trouver il est où. Je te reviens la dessus.

---------------------------------------->
http://www.fmoq.org/Lists/FMOQDocumentLibrary/fr/Le%20M%C3%A9decin%20du%20Qu%C3%A9bec/Archives/2000%20-%202009/031-035DreRoman0909.pdf

Voici un des articles que je possède en papier qui pourras peut-être te donner des petits trucs vue que la médecine d'urgence exige précision, détail et sommeil fragmenté.''


Caro


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## caro.line.101

Dans un autre article aussi que j'ai, avant ton QMB.. essaie de dormir le plus possible pis si t pris... disont 3 jours a dormir 4 heures.. essaie de dormir une bonne nuit après les 3 jours de suite.. je sais que c pas trop trop fesable mais comme j'ai lue sur l'autre forum il est important d'organisé son horaire.


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## SimonM

Merci bcp, mais ça repond pas vrm à ma question.


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## ARMY_101

SimonM said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> Im starting BMQ in about two weeks and i was wondering what kind of sleeping habits i should take before getting there to get myself used to it. What time should i got to bed, get up and also what time to do my PT. Any additional advice is appreciated.



Get up at 5:00am, do an hour of PT, and go to bed at 11:00pm.

See:
Typical BMQ training day
14 things you need to know before going on BMQ


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## SimonM

Thx alot, i didnt know about that site.


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## Remius

You'll also get the shortest best sleep of your life


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## 421_434_226

SLEEP!
You don't need no stinking sleep!!
Sleep is for the weak
You can rest when you retire

All joking aside you will get enough sleep most days, although it is also a great test of your prioritization skills.


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## SimonM

I already get up early but i'll take that down to 5am just to get my system used to it. There was guy that got swornn in with me thatsaid he gets up at noon. I was like "bro ....... Prepare for a paradim shattering reality check" loll


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## PAdm

Sleep is over rated anyway.......


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## Eye In The Sky

To play devils advocate, also consider that just before BMQ will be the last time for some time that you can 'get up when you want to' kind of thing.

It's great you want to acclimatize yourself alittle, etc but really NOTHING you do will correctly simulate BMQ except BMQ.    

I say 'enjoy your free time while you have it'.  IMO you will be glad you did.


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## secondchance

SimonM said:
			
		

> Thx alot, i didnt know about that site.


Check CFLRS website ASAP.You can get a lot information for Basic.


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## Tralax

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/life-vie/basic-voie/series-serie-eng.asp?sid=1

Above is a link to Basic Up. A reality tv show from a few years ago that was developed by the CF. 

Also below is a link to Basic Up: Reloaded

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/land-terre/life-vie/basic-voie/series-serie-eng.asp?sid=2


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## PMedMoe

Yeah, because links to "Basic Up" have never been posted here before.


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## Tralax

I know, I know. Some people don't use "search". So I thought I would be helpful.


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## SimonM

I have two kids ages 4 and 3 soooo the concept of "get up when i want" was lost years ago bro.


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## Goodeman

I have a three year old, I share your pain SimonM.


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## Eye In The Sky

SimonM said:
			
		

> I have two kids ages 4 and 3 soooo the concept of "get up when i want" was lost years ago bro.



Oh, we call that a "self-inflicted wound".   ;D

On a _serious_ note, if you have children that age, you are already acclimatized to BMQ/recruits.  For example, you are used to the following:

- ppl who don't seem to know how to dress themselves, tie up laces, make sure they don't lose their mittens, etc.

- ppl who get cranky when they are tired or didn't get enough sleep

- ppl who don't like their dinner no matter _what_ it is.  

- ppl who want to play, they don't _want _ to have to clean up their room.   

- ppl who try to blame someone else for the thing they lost/broke/didn't do what they should have/etc.

- ppl who 'run to Mommy' when someone makes them cry or feel like a 'fraidy cat.

The list goes on and on...

You have a 4 and 3 year old....you already know what the younger recruits will act like.   >


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## Jarnhamar

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Get up at 5:00am, do an hour of PT, and go to bed at 11:00pm.



I'd second this advice.

You might also consider waking up at 5 and giving yourself 15 minutes to shave then start your run at 5:15am.  After a couple of days give yourself 10 minutes to shave and finally 3-5 minutes to shave.

If you can wake up shave and be ready to run within 5 minutes you'll be at a big advantage.


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## ARMY_101

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> If you can wake up shave and be ready to run within 5 minutes you'll be at a big advantage.



And if you can dry shave _while_ running you're golden come DP1 >


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## SimonM

Being almost 25yo i feel i have an advantage over most of the other people on the course with me. I move out from momma's house 7 years ago so i should do just fine when it comes to personal/common chores. Plus ive ridin the PT train pretty hard for the past months. I wont be overly cocky to say this is going to be a breeze, but ... you know.


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## Eye In The Sky

yup.

And BMQ is gonna still be a challenge in one way or the other.  I did my "Basic" when you were 1 years old.  

Its hard to simulate being tired, being sore, being cold/wet/hot/dehydrated/"insert other situation here", having to climb 14 flights of stairs because you forgot your pen, doing drill and then PT and running or marching to everything "and and and and and"....

Just sayin'.   ;D


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## stealthylizard

Careful on getting up early.  Some BMQ staff wait and expect that.  If you are caught being up early, everyone gets up early for some extra PT time (especially for DP1).  If you are one of the lucky ones that can't seem to grow facial hair, shave the night before.  I would actually advise not shaving before PT.  Your face will burn, and itch, and get red bumps.  Organize your time well the night before, and it will help the next morning.


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## Tralax

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Oh, we call that a "self-inflicted wound".   ;D
> 
> On a _serious_ note, if you have children that age, you are already acclimatized to BMQ/recruits.  For example, you are used to the following:
> 
> - ppl who don't seem to know how to dress themselves, tie up laces, make sure they don't lose their mittens, etc.
> 
> - ppl who get cranky when they are tired or didn't get enough sleep
> 
> - ppl who don't like their dinner no matter _what_ it is.
> 
> - ppl who want to play, they don't _want _ to have to clean up their room.
> 
> - ppl who try to blame someone else for the thing they lost/broke/didn't do what they should have/etc.
> 
> - ppl who 'run to Mommy' when someone makes them cry or feel like a 'fraidy cat.
> 
> The list goes on and on...
> 
> You have a 4 and 3 year old....you already know what the younger recruits will act like.   >



Hahaha.  That made me laugh, thank you.


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## Eye In The Sky

:bowing:


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## SimonM

I dont fool myself in thinking this will be easy, but im glad i have somewhat of a head start.


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## cupper

What? They clothe you, feed you, pay you. You want sleep too? ;D

Best of Luck, Enjoy the experience, and Welcome.


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## veelox321

Hi, 
first of all i'm actually in the reserve as an Infantry Officer. I'm not actually all qualified, still missing the 
IODP 1.1 (Phase 3). I've heard a lot about his course that it's 6week and then 10 days in the field followed by 4 off days 4times in a row. I'm just concerned about the sleep deprivation, I've already done 6days in a row and dont add a lot of problem. But 10 days could it be bad? If there is infantry officer here, do you have an advice for me to last 10 days?


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## Ayrsayle

There is no good advice - I saw all kinds of methods to "handle" sleep deprivation while on Phase three and not entirely sure how effective they were (save that everyone was exhausted and zombie-like by the end).  It will be "bad", but the question both you and the course is trying to answer is "will it be debilitating?".  Only one way to find out.  IT has a failure rate of around 50% for a reason - and this is from individuals who have been mentally preparing for it since they joined, etc.

As of the end of last year, the course was a large block of classroom training followed by three blocks of 10 days on, 4 days off.  Only speaking from personal experience, my first day off was pretty much a write off (ate an ungodly amount of food, slept 14-16 hours, etc). Second day was spent cleaning all the kit from the 10 day period, third day was a study/relax day, and the last day was prepping for the next 10.

I usually found that those who tried to rely on caffeine (pills, drinks, etc) usually crashed and hit bottom harder then those who used nothing.  Being fit makes a large difference - you are already working with a large negative on your back (the lack of sleep), being unfit just compounds the problem.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Show up to the course very physically fit an eat constantly while you are in the field while also drinking tonnes of water.  Whenever you get a break for a meal eat as much as you can.  When they bring a haybox go for seconds.  You will be working continuously and you will be functioning off no rest so the only way to keep yourself from burning out is to eat a lot of food and drink lots of water.

Stay away from all supplements and that other crap, if you are caught with that stuff you could be in a lot of trouble.


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## veelox321

In the field, with a lack of sleep i'm the kind of person that can't eat a lot, even in the normal life.
RoyalDrew you said ''Stay away from all supplements and that other crap'' you mean i can't bring protein powder, gatorade powder, beef jerky and that kind of stuff? This could help me taking more calories if i cant eat them why not drinking them.


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## vonGarvin

veelox321 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> first of all i'm actually in the reserve as an Infantry Officer. I'm not actually all qualified, still missing the
> IODP 1.1 (Phase 3). I've heard a lot about his course that it's 6week and then 10 days in the field followed by 4 off days 4times in a row. I'm just concerned about the sleep deprivation, I've already done 6days in a row and dont add a lot of problem. But 10 days could it be bad? If there is infantry officer here, do you have an advice for me to last 10 days?


Hello
Water is your friend.  Keep hydrated.  

Now, the course is 6 weeks (or so) in garrison, followed by several in the field.  From personal experience, the sleep deprivation is just something you have to deal with, and I found the time in the field much better to deal with than the garrison.  Don't worry about protein powders and crap.  Just bring some candies and such if you must, but you won't need much.  The course will ensure that you get plenty of food.  You may not have much time to enjoy your meals, because it *is* a tough course.

Just savour every minute of it.


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## Michael OLeary

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Just savour every minute of it.



_"Savour"_

Yeah, that's the word that comes to mind when I think of Infantry Phase III.


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## vonGarvin

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> _"Savour"_
> 
> Yeah, that's the word that comes to mind when I think of Infantry Phase III.



 ;D


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## SOES_vet

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Stay away from all supplements and that other crap, if you are caught with that stuff you could be in a lot of trouble.



Regarding supplements. We had one guy on course who was very fit but also a supplement freak. He would (I'm not joking at all) have a handful of pills during his breakfast. When we went out to the field for the first time, he had limited supply of his supplements and water and completely crashed, and flunked the course. You can become dependent on over the counter supplements etc so beware.


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## OldSolduer

As a long distance runner at least in my own mind I like Gatorade. Keeps the electrolytes up. I used to bring it to the field and after a long day I'd share it with the section. Powder form and mixed with water.


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## Humphrey Bogart

veelox321 said:
			
		

> In the field, with a lack of sleep i'm the kind of person that can't eat a lot, even in the normal life.
> RoyalDrew you said ''Stay away from all supplements and that other crap'' you mean i can't bring protein powder, gatorade powder, beef jerky and that kind of stuff? This could help me taking more calories if i cant eat them why not drinking them.



Your ration packs will have electrolyte powder in them so there is no need to bring extra stuff with you.  Eat rations and eat as much food as you can when they bring a haybox to the field.  Drink tonnes of water as technoviking said and you should be fine.  

You won't have room in your rucksack for all those creature comforts so learn to live without the gummy bears, beef jerky, gatorade powder, etc...

What I would invest in though is a nice little portable stove  and not for cooking but for your trench so you can throw your poncho over you and your buddy and keep warm.

Edit:


----------



## Robert0288

I've seen people use this fairly successfully.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I've seen people use this fairly successfully.



On topic please. There's already a thread on stoves.

---Staff---


----------



## Rifleman62

Some info from an Aide Memoire.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny.  
Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.


----------



## Ayrsayle

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny.
> Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.



You're entirely correct - which is likely the reason we had only blanks and were not allowed to touch anything that we could damage (besides ourselves - which happened often).  I remember watching individuals (including myself) try to march and nap at the same time - quite a few ended up in ditches or falling over.  Trying to lead a night patrol on day 8 was..... interesting. I remember sleeping around 3-4 hours for the  10 days of offensive, and about as much during the 10 day defensive.  I'm also fairly sure I blacked out for minutes at a time without knowing it as well.

This was also the same course where it was jokingly suggested by a staff member that killing a bear would ensure you passed - and a few weeks in, when confronted by a black bear, started looking appealing and possible with bayonets. 

If you can handle basic leadership skills when operating at that level of awareness, you "should" be able to lead effectively otherwise.  YMMV.


----------



## Loch Sloy!

> Now, the course is 6 weeks (or so) in garrison, followed by several in the field.



Is the course still delivered in Mods and is the whole course still 12 weeks? I understand delivery in modules is a sore point with some DS at the Infantry School but for many reservists there is no other way to make the training fit with civilan employment.

Another problem is course cancellations; I was loaded this fall and the course was cancelled on short notice; my employer was quite... underwhelmed.


----------



## vonGarvin

Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> Is the course still delivered in Mods and is the whole course still 12 weeks? I understand delivery in modules is a sore point with some DS at the Infantry School but for many reservists there is no other way to make the training fit with civilan employment.
> 
> Another problem is course cancellations; I was loaded this fall and the course was cancelled on short notice; my employer was quite... underwhelmed.


The course is not delivered in modules.  And it's close to 12 weeks, but I don't have the exact number.  


As for not making the mod system work, it has been of benefit of a slim majority of reservist officers over the past decade or so.  Something on the order of 10%.  And unit COs are hesitant to wait 5 years (or more) to have a 2Lt qualified to be platoon commanders for them, when they can easily get others to commit to the course in one shot.

As for cancellations, that's just how the ball bounces sometimes.  And it's a decision not taken lightly.


----------



## Loch Sloy!

Has the change away from mods been communicated outside the infantry school? It doesn't seem anyone out here (including my adj) is aware of this.

It may be easy to get officer candidates willing to commit to 3 month blocks of time (which may or may not actually run, and i do undestand that things happen) in other places but in Alberta at least it hasn't been that simple.

Right or wrong it's been very difficult for my unit and others to get officers through the training system. I certainly understand the need for the infantry school to maintain the course to a very high standard, however the school (admittedly from my worms eye view) does not seem to be able to train enough infantry officers to keep reserve units at full complement. 

From my perspective it's because the training is not delivered in a way that takes into account the competing demands that reservists face. Do I really need to fight to leave my job for three months straight for a course that may be cancelled just weeks in advance? Certainly things like weapons and FFQ could be offered at the unit level which would shorten the length of time in Gagetown considerably.

Does the course need to be extremely challenging? Absolutely. Bring everyone to Gagetown for 4 or 6 weeks field time to make sure the standard is met. But I can learnthe C6 and field firing just as easilyin Suffield and/ or wainwright. 

 Respectfully it's not enough to say its "easy" to find guys who can and will do it, when the reality for units has been opposite to that. If the training system is honestly dedicated to train the reserve force as well as the regular force (and it has a duty to be...) then training must also be designed to work for the reserves.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Stovepipes and empires.

No one wants to share.

That's your short answer.


----------



## ballz

Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> Has the change away from mods been communicated outside the infantry school? It doesn't seem anyone out here (including my adj) is aware of this.



It's old news. They stopped allowing Reg Force pers to go through module by module at least 2 years ago, and at that time only allowed any PRes pers who already had a module or two to finish up by mods. Any new PRes people would have to go through in one shot just like everybody else.



			
				Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> Right or wrong it's been very difficult for my unit and others to get officers through the training system. I certainly understand the need for the infantry school to maintain the course to a very high standard, however the school (admittedly from my worms eye view) does not seem to be able to train enough infantry officers to keep reserve units at full complement.



The school trains who ever, and they run some damn big serials (4 platoons at a time) if there is enough people being sent to Gagetown. It's up to your unit to recruit enough people and send them on the course.



			
				Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> From my perspective it's because the training is not delivered in a way that takes into account the competing demands that reservists face. Do I really need to fight to leave my job for three months straight for a course that may be cancelled just weeks in advance? Certainly things like weapons and FFQ could be offered at the unit level which would shorten the length of time in Gagetown considerably.
> 
> Does the course need to be extremely challenging? Absolutely. Bring everyone to Gagetown for 4 or 6 weeks field time to make sure the standard is met. But I can learnthe C6 and field firing just as easilyin Suffield and/ or wainwright.
> 
> Respectfully it's not enough to say its "easy" to find guys who can and will do it, when the reality for units has been opposite to that. If the training system is honestly dedicated to train the reserve force as well as the regular force (and it has a duty to be...) then training must also be designed to work for the reserves.



A few years ago when Col Aitcheson was the CO of the Infantry School and the course was still run in Mods (but they were trying to make the argument that it should not be), and I was one of about 120 candidates on Ph III when he asked us all "Please raise your hand if you are doing this course by modules." Despite there being plenty of reservists (I would say at least 30-40), only two raised their hands.

A decision was made that the standard for the entire Infantry Corps would not have to suffer a course layout that sucked both for learning/training and also for holding a high standard, just to accommodate the 2 - 8 reservists each summer that wished to complete the course in Mods.



That's all well and good that you think the unit can provide you with weapons training and FFQ, and you can just come to Gagetown for 6 weeks and "meet the standard." But, its a rite of passage in its own sense to complete the course *as a whole* and not broken down into chunks. 

By the time my platoon made it the field portion, we had dropped from 35+ down to 20. Those remaining had lost a lot of weight, had sustained a few injuries, had huge blisters and other owies, the course staff knew who they were, a lot of us were already introduced to the "warning system" via red chits, and we were about to head into the harder portion of the course in that condition.

Showing up for that 6 week period in prime condition, well-fed, well-rested, and after a few good weeks in the gym and doing road work in the prime weather of May and June, was not quite meeting the same standard that those who had done the full course in one shot had to meet.


----------



## FJAG

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I remember hitting my limit at 5 days without sleep while in the defensive. I thought stuff like chasing a young black bear or (considering) aiming a paraflare close to the instructor would be funny.
> Are officers subjected to going longer than 5 days without sleep?  10 days seems like it would just make people combat ineffective and dangerous.



Officer training emphasizes going on forced rests to ensure that one remains a combat effective leader. Officers who fail to take adequate rest do so either because they don't understand how ineffective they have become or because they think they have to be there 100% of the time -- you don't, this is why we have subordinate leaders and 2i/cs.

Obviously what time is available for sleep and how much an individual needs is very much determined by the circumstances and level of fitness. I challenged myself once during a CPX (mental work but no significant physical activities involved) to see how far I could go without any sleep whatsoever. I noticed some deterioration in performance after 48 hours and basically became ineffective after 72 hours. On the other hand I can go several weeks on limited sleep(2-4 hrs per day). One technique I always found helpful was to do for micro sleeps (10-15 mins) whenever the opportunity arose.

I doubt if there is anyone who can do five days without any sleep whatsoever without walking into walls for the last two days. Ten days? No way! No matter how fit you are. 

One thing about junior officer training. We challenge their schedules during training for several reasons. The primary ones are to see how they manage their time and resources and to see how they operate and react under stress. 

 :cheers:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The old saw:

Don't stand when you can sit;
Don't sit when you can lay; and, 
Don't lay when you can sleep.

Always applies.


----------



## Armymedic

Medical schools are moving away from having medical students from doing 24 hr shifts without sleep, because the mistakes they make kill people.


----------



## chrisf

FJAG said:
			
		

> Officer training emphasizes going on forced rests to ensure that one remains a combat effective leader. Officers who fail to take adequate rest do so either because they don't understand how ineffective they have become or because they think they have to be there 100% of the time -- you don't, this is why we have subordinate leaders and 2i/cs.
> 
> Obviously what time is available for sleep and how much an individual needs is very much determined by the circumstances and level of fitness. I challenged myself once during a CPX (mental work but no significant physical activities involved) to see how far I could go without any sleep whatsoever. I noticed some deterioration in performance after 48 hours and basically became ineffective after 72 hours. On the other hand I can go several weeks on limited sleep(2-4 hrs per day). One technique I always found helpful was to do for micro sleeps (10-15 mins) whenever the opportunity arose.
> 
> I doubt if there is anyone who can do five days without any sleep whatsoever without walking into walls for the last two days. Ten days? No way! No matter how fit you are.
> 
> One thing about junior officer training. We challenge their schedules during training for several reasons. The primary ones are to see how they manage their time and resources and to see how they operate and react under stress.
> 
> :cheers:



Not sure if you've ever seen them/ but there's been plenty of studies conducted on how folks function with reduced sleep, and there's very clear tables to assist leaders in determining how functional they can expect the average soldier to be, on what amounts of sleep... and as well, how they can expect to maintain those levels of functionality over extended periods with what levels of reduced sleep...

I keep a copy of a leadership aide-de-memoir (The exact title escapes me at the moment) in my FMP at all times, which includes the "sleep tables" (As well as a variety of other risk management tables, and some other useful tidbits). Not sure where else you'd find them published, but it's definitely a useful read, and something to take into consideration when planning...

As the old saying goes, "When in doubt, rack out".

Learning to trust your 2IC/subordinates is as much a lesson in leadership as anything else.


----------



## Mr. St-Cyr

My advice is to show up in the best physical shape of your life. Drink water ALL the time. Condition yourself to sleep about 6 hours a day before showing up; the sleep deprivation will not be as bad as someone used to getting 10 hours a day. I completed DP1.1 in 2012 and it was the first year they had the new formula of 4 weeks or so of death by powerpoint/FSQ followed by 40 days of FTX spread in 4 blocks. The first 48 hours were always the worst for me, the hallucinations happened during that period.. I'd totally see stars while marching in the dark and walk right into ditches. The last 8 days were actually easier because I was too exhausted to realize I was tired. At any rate, as long as there is someone in the platoon more NS than you, you'll do great.


----------



## Nudibranch

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Medical schools are moving away from having medical students from doing 24 hr shifts without sleep, because the mistakes they make kill people.



Very true, but the point of med school clinical rotations and residency isn't to see how the student functions under sleep deprivation conditions for the purpose of training/experience. The point is to teach medicine (the student must be in a state where they can actually retain this useful information, and follow their resident's/attending's orders on the treatment of real people with real problems), and assess/treat said real patients with their real medical problems. 

The point of purposeful sleep deprivation in miliatry training is, well...to allow the trainee to experience such a stressor and see how they function under these conditions in a training environment.

Apples and oranges.


----------



## ballz

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I keep a copy of a leadership aide-de-memoir (The exact title escapes me at the moment) in my FMP at all times, which includes the "sleep tables" (As well as a variety of other risk management tables, and some other useful tidbits). Not sure where else you'd find them published, but it's definitely a useful read, and something to take into consideration when planning...
> 
> As the old saying goes, "When in doubt, rack out".



Are these the tables you are referring to? I have seen them pop up a few times...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-31/appa.htm


----------



## daftandbarmy

Teamwork: work with the other members of your section to fit cat naps in whenever you can. 

How long is a catnap?

15 minutes used to feel like a 'straight 8' at times.


----------



## dimsum

Interesting piece; while this is US Army-centric, this applies equally to the CAF.  We don't let soldiers/sailors perform their duties drunk, so why is it ok (or seen as a good thing) to do the same jobs sleep-deprived?  The Air Force is staunchly insistent on crew rest because it has seen first-hand what happens when people try to fly airplanes while fatigued.



> The Army has a sleep problem. Here’s how to fix it.
> 
> By: Maj. Jeff Jager and Aaron Kennedy, November 20, 2016 (Photo Credit: Senior Airman Cliffton Dolezal/Air Force)
> Editor's note: The following is an opinion piece. The writers are not employed by Military Times and the views expressed here do not necessarily represent those of Military Times or its editorial staff.
> 
> The use of alcohol is known to degrade mental capacity and impair decision-making. The military prohibits its use during duty hours for common-sense reasons, and does the same with other substances that can degrade readiness. But when it comes to other actions that can do similar damage, or worse, we promote them with reverence, pretending they are strengths.
> 
> Studies show sleep deprivation offers effects equal to drinking alcohol, and continued lack of sleep has the potential of being even more deadly. We would never allow a drunken soldier to lead an ambush, so why do we consider it acceptable or even admirable to send one with lack of sleep into life-threatening situations?
> 
> The Army’s culture of sleep deprivation begins during basic training, although the Center for Initial Military Training has taken steps recently to incorporate additional sleep into the platform. It continues through the first unit of assignment, where we interrupt sleep with training and other duties until going without rest becomes ingrained in our soldiers.
> 
> This is akin to assuming that service members can build up enough alcohol tolerance that they will be safe to drive regardless of how much they have to drink. The logic is flawed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Army has yet to grasp how important sleep is to mission accomplishment, decision-making, general health, physical fitness, and the whole host of other activities.
> 
> As noted in the Army’s November 2015 Health of the Force report, only 15 percent of the active-duty Army meets all national sleep standards, and an incredible 55 percent failed to meet any of the defined targets. The report found 10 percent of soldiers have a diagnosed sleep disorder, almost a third operate on five or less hours of sleep per night, and half have a “clinically significant sleep problem.”
> 
> SURVEY SAYS …
> 
> The Army recognizes this problem and is working to address sleep management issues via its Performance Triad program, marking sleep as one of three focus areas alongside physical activity and nutrition. But a survey we conducted shows the program may suffer from a significant lack of awareness.
> 
> Between June and July, we received 221 responses from active-duty and reserve-component soldiers, with nearly 41 percent supporting the Triad’s core concepts. But nearly 42 percent had “never heard of it,” and almost 18 percent didn’t agree with it, including more than 20 percent of active-duty soldiers.
> 
> Studies show those who managed just five to six hours of sleep a night perform much like a person with a blood alcohol content of 0.08, the level at which one is considered legally drunk in all states. The Army has a robust program and culture against drunk driving to the point where a DUI is considered a career killer, but there are plenty of soldiers who pride themselves on getting limited sleep. This is hugely misguided.
> 
> As Pat Wadors, Linkedin’s Chief Human Resource Officer, explains in a 2015 piece at The Huffington Post:
> 
> “Trust me, it’s not a badge of honor to brag that you can get by on 4 hours or 5 each night….You intimate that with fewer hours “wasted on sleep” you are more productive. Nope. Can’t buy that. When you brag about that, you are telling me that it’s ok for you to harm your health and not perform your best at work or at home. Is that something to brag about??”
> 
> In the Army, an institution where real life-and-death consequences derive from decisions, we argue that sleep deprivation is definitely not something to brag about.
> 
> HOW TO FIX IT
> 
> Our recommendation to counter force-wide sleep deprivation is two-fold. First, increase awareness efforts. Senior leaders like Sergeant Major of the Army Daniel Dailey frequently highlight important topics and changes to policy, such as rolled-up sleeves, black socks for PT, earbuds in the gym, and a review of the body composition program – the Performance Triad should be part of that mix.
> 
> Second, mandate the use of wearable sleep trackers and implement policies to prevent sleep-deprived individuals from making decisions and leading units. We expect this idea will be met with derision by some Soldiers, but we remind skeptics that a soldier found drunk on duty likely faces punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, whereas one functioning without proper sleep is allowed to function at a similar impaired capacity. A simple tweak to existing regulations to add “sleep tracker” into passages that involve pedometers and other fitness tools would highlight that the Army is starting to take sleep seriously.
> 
> Other helpful policy changes, highlighted in the Health of the Force report, include setting conditions to allow soldiers to get proper sleep and integrating “sleep science into mission planning.” Average sleep could even be included in the promotion and evaluation process, which already broadly considers nutrition and physical activity through the Army Physical Fitness Test.
> 
> Within the aviation community, mandatory rest has long been the norm, with maximum work and minimum rest periods. Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?
> 
> ---
> 
> Maj. Jeff Jager is an Infantry and Foreign Area Officer who is currently serving as the Army Training and Doctrine Command Liaison Officer to Turkey. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 2000 and has completed master’s degrees at Georgetown University and the Turkish Army War College.
> 
> Former Marine Corps Sgt. Aaron Kennedy deployed twice to the Middle East and later served as an intelligence systems instructor at the Marine Air-Ground Task Force Staff Training Program in Quantico, Virginia. The views expressed are those of the authors and not necessarily the positions of the Army, Defense Department or any federal agency.


----------



## mariomike

> Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?

May depend on the military occupation specialty?

eg: I believe some CAF firefighters are on duty for 24-hours.

See also,

The Sleep Superthread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/82.50
5 pages.

Sleep during BMQ  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110727.0
2 pages.

an issue with sleep  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/91490.0.html
2 pages.

etc...


----------



## CountDC

mariomike said:
			
		

> > Shouldn’t our other military occupational specialties be viewed equally?
> 
> May depend on the military occupation specialty?
> 
> eg: I believe some CAF firefighters are on duty for 24-hours.



Some civilian firefighters too but they get time during that period that they can sleep if not on a call.  Considering the number of calls the CAF gets I imagine they do get the time to sleep.


----------



## mariomike

CountDC said:
			
		

> Some civilian firefighters too but they get time during that period that they can sleep if not on a call.



Oh, I do know that.  

They used to complain about our tones going off and doors going up and down all night.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Army doesn't have a 'sleep problem'. This is a leadership problem.

The leaders in the Army need to pull their heads out and make sure they pay attention to proper battle procedure. Even when on operations, there should be some part of every unit on 'enforced rest' at all times. 

Of course, it helps if those people aren't the sentries (which I noticed was very common with some famous units that I will refrain from mentioning in public... for now  )


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Interesting piece; while this is US Army-centric, this applies equally to the CAF.  We don't let soldiers/sailors perform their duties drunk, so why is it ok (or seen as a good thing) to do the same jobs sleep-deprived?  The Air Force is staunchly insistent on crew rest because it has seen first-hand what happens when people try to fly airplanes while fatigued.



I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.

The operational tempo is just as bad, if not worse, with a higher penalty for failure.


----------



## dimsum

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.



Tangent, but that was my cousin's experience working in HK at a large multinational firm as an accountant.  She noped out of there to LA and a much smaller company, and she's much happier for it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have spent a lot of time working with the Americans.  They don't have a sleep problem - they have a work problem.  It has become normal to be at work before 0500 for the 0530 muster, and considered bad form to leave before the Boss (after 2100).....and that is in Garrison.  They have solved the work / life balance problem by making it impossible to have a life.
> 
> The operational tempo is just as bad, if not worse, with a higher penalty for failure.



One of my NCOs was on exchange with the 82nd Airborne and returned with amazing stories of troops being on parade at 0500 for inspection followed at 15 minute intervals by OCs reporting parade strengths to COs reporting to Bde Comds reporting to the Div Comd, in person. Then they all went for a (slow) 3 mile run singing airborne songs, with flags at the front, then fell out for breakfast before starting work. Every. Single. Day.

It all sounded like some kind of gigantic Army kindergarten class. Without the snacks.


----------



## Penguin1994

Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave? 

As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ. 

For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?


----------



## mariomike

Penguin1994 said:
			
		

> For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?



See also,

The Sleep Superthread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/82.50
5 pages.

Sleep during BMQ  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/110727.0
2 pages.

an issue with sleep  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/91490.0.html
2 pages.

etc...


----------



## George Wallace

Penguin1994 said:
			
		

> Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?
> 
> As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.
> 
> For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?



A good question and one that has been asked and answered a couple of times over the course of this site's existence.

The most honest and accurate answer to your question is: "YES, after you have graduated your BMQ."  

While on course, your timings will be dictated by the Course Schedule.  All courses are different, so all schedules will vary as well.

The New Mods will, as you may have noticed, come along soon and MERGE your question with the appropriate thread where you can read all the previous answers and get a better feel for how the military operates.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Penguin1994 said:
			
		

> Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?
> 
> As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.
> 
> For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?



Yes. Any time you find yourself in a dark theatre watching a video/ movie about venereal disease, or something equally riveting.  ;D


----------



## Pusser

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Yes. Any time you find yourself in a dark theatre watching a video/ movie about venereal disease, or something equally riveting.  ;D



Actually that Disney produced film on VD is actually quite entertaining!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Penguin1994 said:
			
		

> Are there ever any days at BMQ that you are permitted to sleep at a time other than 11pm-5am? What I mean by that is are you ever given the chance to sleep till 7am or will wake up always be at 5am with no exception from the day you arrive to the day you leave?
> 
> As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.
> 
> For anyone who has done BMQ what was your experience regarding sleep?



It can take a week or two to get used to it.
When you wake up at 5 am quickly shave, put running gear on and go for a 5 km run. Then work your way up to doing 40 push ups and 40 sit ups.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Penguin1994 said:
			
		

> As a test I am trying to wake up at 5am and fall asleep at 11pm everyday for the next 3 months. I am only a few days in and already I am having a hard time with this routine. I can function on little sleep so long as am I able to make up for it later on but from what I've read it seems as though you never get the chance to catch up on sleep while at BMQ.



I've always thought that trying to specifically train to be sleep deprived (or uncomfortable) was somewhat stupid, but others probably smarter (despite a propensity for checking that socks and underwear met regulations) and definitely higher ranking than me believed otherwise.  Trying to get into the sleep routine that you may expect at BMQ would likely be impossible unless you also follow the full routine and schedule (physical activity, meals, etc) that accompany that sleep routine.

The best advice that you can take (besides not snoring when you doze off in a dark theatre as per D&B's post . . . are lights even extinguished anymore during presentations . . . it's not like the dark ages when we sat through actual "projected films") is to sleep normally until you get to St. Jean and then just follow the schedule.  If you can get all the things done that need to be done before lights out, good, and then go ground.  If you are one of those people who have trouble waking early in the morning unless you have your full eight hours (or more), don't worry, there's always someone there to gently rouse you from your slumber.  Simple answer, don't worry.  That's what basic is  for, to expose you to the military's expectations.  Besides, it's only three months (or so), luxury.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Small addition:

- if/when recruits are allowed away from the Mega as training progresses (after the Indoc period), it's not uncommon for them to say, get a room at the Comfort Inn or in the city, stuff like that.  If you are on Leave for the weekend and allowed to remain off base overnight, that is when you can (safely) sleep in.  

Testing yourself for X time before BMQ...pros and cons.  It might help you adjust some, it might put you in a sleep deficit before you even grace the Green Doors with your presence.  Like PT, don't over do it.  Also, remember...being tired and pushing thru it more mental then physical (IMO).  Don't ruin your last few days/weeks of *freedom* running your own personal pre-BMQ course at home.  Enjoy life, do you have those recent memories to look back on when you find yourself embracing the Suck.


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## Ontario23

Hi,

I'm leaving for Mod 2 of my DP1 in a few days and I have heard that there is a portion where you are forced to stay awake for 72 hours straight. Wanted to see if this was true or if it is exaggerated. 

Thanks.


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## RedcapCrusader

You're not forced to stay awake so much as that there's always something going on like patrols, recce, defending your trench line from attack that you get very little sleep while in the field.


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## daftandbarmy

Ontario23 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I'm leaving for Mod 2 of my DP1 in a few days and I have heard that there is a portion where you are forced to stay awake for 72 hours straight. Wanted to see if this was true or if it is exaggerated.
> 
> Thanks.



An important part of infantry training is learning how to go for long periods of time on cat naps. Seriously.

It’s not a P.O. check but it should be.


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## Cwes

You won't be able to stay awake the whole time either. You are going to go in and out of conciousness with micro sleep. The thing about sleep dep is that it actually makes you care less. When I was sleep dep'd I was a lot less stressed out and the course went by quicker.


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## mariomike

For Sleep Deprivation on course, see also,

The Sleep Superthread
https://army.ca/forums/threads/82.75
5 pages.


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