# Canadian President



## Armymedic (15 Aug 2007)

I am just so impressed with how the opposition parties are all touting an antiAmerican line.

I have seen Dion on two separate occasions call the PM a "Canadian President" and a follower of his American Idol, Pres GWB.

I see that the wannabes have nothing better than personal attacks by which to criticize the Government.

Is that a sure sign the CPC is doing a good job in ruling, or is antiamericanism permeating as an underlying election issue?


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## Kat Stevens (15 Aug 2007)

I think the Granola Brigade automatically associates conservative beliefs with a cowboy gun-nut mentality, i.e Americanism, in their tiny minds.  The Oppo is trying to cash in on that... sad, really.


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## felboisse (15 Aug 2007)

I honestly dont see why Dion and Layton say Harper is Bush's/America's puppy. All he has done is strengthen our relationship which shouldnt be viewed as negative. Harper bought tanks from Europeans, not Americans. 

These opposition parties just use it against Harper because they have nothing else to criticize. Up to now, Harper has done a great job, strengthening the military, affirming Canada's sovereignty in the arctic, he has lowered the unemployment rate to 6%. A record low since the early 70's. 

Dion and Layton cant shut the hell up which hopefully will cost them votes. 

Lets hope for the Harper majority next elections so he can fix the senate and continue increasing our military power.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Aug 2007)

It's a concerted effort to smear and paint Harper as a Bush wannabe. They know anti US/Bush sentiment runs high with the ill informed and are hoping that by tying Harper to Bush, they can steal the vote. Typical political move for them. Bullshit baffles brains. Proves they have nothing of substance to bring out.

Lie; Libel; Liberal
The evolution of politics

Just my $00.02


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## geo (15 Aug 2007)

Felboise, 
The unemployment rate has been going down for a number of years.
Don't think you can credit the current PM with that.... many things, but not that.


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## felboisse (15 Aug 2007)

Geo:

True, the oil industry has helped ALOT. 

But Harper is still a great PM.


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## geo (15 Aug 2007)

Brian Mulroney gutted the Conservative party
Jean Chrétien gutted the Liberal party

It took how many new leaders and how many years for the Conservatives to come back?
It'll probably take just as many and just as long for the Liberals to get their act together...

In the meantime, I would hope the Conservatives CAN get a majority so that they can pass thru some real policies.


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## ModlrMike (15 Aug 2007)

It will be interesting to see how the Liberal/NDP mutual admiration society reacts if the Democrats win the next US election. I presume that Mr Harper is astute enough to continue the relationships with the new US president.


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## a_majoor (19 Aug 2007)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see how the Liberal/NDP mutual admiration society reacts if the Democrats win the next US election. I presume that Mr Harper is astute enough to continue the relationships with the new US president.



While Mr Harper may be so astute, the President (Clinton II _or_ Giuliani, or anyone else for that matter) will probably have little reason to spend much time and attention on Canada or our politics. The Liberals and NDP will have to walk a fine line of being anti-American enough to appeal to their supporters without being so shrill as to attract negative attention to themselves from south of the border.


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## zipperhead_cop (19 Aug 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> or is antiamericanism permeating as an underlying election issue?



IMO anti-Americanism is pretty much the only thing that passes for a universal Canadian cultural value.  We are such a sad mish-mosh of individuals floundering about, the only thing anyone seems to agree on is that we aren't American.  It's funny, if you hear someone railing against the United States try to get them to commit to why they think it is such a bad place, and then ask them what it is about Canada that makes us better.  I've actually heard answers like "well, they think they are so cool, and think their country is the best in the world".  Wow.  Thinking your country is the best.  How completely wretched of them.  
That being said, this isn't an invitation to a dog pile.  _I_ know why Canada is better than the US, but there are a god-awful lot of people that don't.  And it doesn't seem like there is any latitude to accept that the US does _some_ things better than us.  So in the absence of being able to answer what it is that makes us great Canadians, many people can just be content with the unfounded self satisfied smugness of "well, we aren't them".  
That being the case, the Lieberals are the party of nothingness and status quo.  Smoke and mirrors carry the day, with a healthy dash of arrogance.  Look at the disdain that Jean Crouton had for our country in the way he conducted himself at the end of his reign.  And now look at how Celine Stephan Dion is acting.  Who the hell is he to tell the PM what to say to another leader of a foreign nation?!  I can almost guarantee that was as a result of seeing some sort of poll that suggests that Canadians see him as a poofy milquetoast, and he had to get all gangsta 'n stuff an git up in the PM's grill (fo shizzle, yo).  
There has been so much Lieberal crap for so many years, I actually find myself becoming anxious about the next election.  Surely, Canadians have not gotten rocked by decisive leadership, or a party that actually has a plan to move the country forward?  I am *so* hoping that all of the garbage they have been spewing (that hinges and counts on Canadians being uninformed clods) since the CPC has been in comes back to bite them in the arse.  But there is that gunshy part of me that remembers that the good citizens voted them back into a majority after they dicked away 2 BILLION dollars with no accounting for it whatsoever.  
I dunno.  Time will tell, I guess.


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## observor 69 (19 Aug 2007)

Things I don't like about the USA:

1. They are governed by the worst president in US history.
2. He took them into Iraq with no plan. Hubris ruled. Bush thought the US was such a dominate superpower that he could create a Middle Eastern centre of  power and influence. As Powell said, "You break it you own it."
3. Health care. I spent four years in the states closely involved with the US system, guess what ? you never go to the hospital unless you are extremely sick. Problem is by the time you are  desperate is also often too late to be saved. Try watching a young man in his 30's die from cancer because he couldn't afford proper care. Oh ya did I forget the old cliche you should pull yourself up by your boot straps and afford health care. How's that working out for American's?
4. Most Americans don't know anything about countries outside the US.  

I could go on but it is rather point less. I do miss the big league aspect of the States. Name an area, computers, medicine, technology, finance and you do realize you are experiencing the top players in the world.
And yes Dion is somewhat justified in calling Harper Bush lite. "President" Harper rules his cabinet, shuffling the bodies will make no difference because he micro manages and has no real trust in his ministers. 

Edit: And you better get used to President Clinton because the American public are in no mood to elect another Republican government and president.


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## muskrat89 (19 Aug 2007)

> 3. Health care. I spent four years in the states closely involved with the US system, guess what ? you never go to the hospital unless you are extremely sick. Problem is by the time you are  desperate is also often too late to be saved. Try watching a young man in his 30's die from cancer because he couldn't afford proper care. Oh ya did I forget the old cliche you should pull yourself up by your boot straps and afford health care. How's that working out for American's?



Sorry, but I have  lived here 15 years and never seen evidence to the degree of which you are speaking. Not saying it doesn't exist, but exist to a level where you can class it as indicative? Sorry, not buying it. For an example, look no further than the border states (southern) where emergency rooms are struggling, even closing - because by law they have to treat you if you are sick or injured. Illegal immigrants are flooding hospitals in the southwest.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/10/heallth.illegal.ap/


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## observor 69 (19 Aug 2007)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I have  lived here 15 years and never seen evidence to the degree of which you are speaking. Not saying it doesn't exist, but exist to a level where you can class it as indicative? Sorry, not buying it. For an example, look no further than the border states (southern) where emergency rooms are struggling, even closing - because by law they have to treat you if you are sick or injured. Illegal immigrants are flooding hospitals in the southwest.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html
> 
> ...



Muskrat  I don't deny in the southern states this situation exists. The whole issue of Mexican immigrant labour is being struggled with by the Congress as I am sure you are well aware of.
But....Health care is a gigantic issue in the States, just check out the platform of any parties presidential candidate.


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## muskrat89 (19 Aug 2007)

Baden Guy - I agree for the most part. It happens. I don't dispute that the parties make it an issue. Just not sure that it warranted a generalization about "people dying of cancer"...  On the other hand, I also hear about the Canadian Healthcare system, and "cancer patients being sent to the US by their Doctors, because the waits are so long at regional treatment centers".


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Aug 2007)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> ...  On the other hand, I also hear about the Canadian Healthcare system, and "cancer patients being sent to the US by their Doctors, because the waits are so long at regional treatment centers".



All sorts of anecdotal claims can be made about healthcare in either country.  While some Canadian patients are occasionally sent to facilities south of the border due to immediate needs (recent prominent case is the Calgary quadrulets born in Great Falls), it's not as common as some would have you believe.  If one wanted to get into fingerpointing, we could discuss the increasing referral of US patients (sometimes by their health insurers) to Indian and other Asian surgical facilities.


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## muskrat89 (19 Aug 2007)

Blackadder - not fingerpointing at all - simply making the same point that you did. Anecdotes don't warrant broad generalizations. Having lived almost equal portions of my life in both countries, I am well aware of the good things and the warts, in both countries. I also aware of the agendas of the MSM and politicians alike, to promote the aspect of the situation which best reflects their  point of view.


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## Flip (19 Aug 2007)

It's easy to be anti-American when you fail to consider alternatives.

Yea, America has it's problems.
So does Canada.

How would the world look if Russia, China, or even France 
Had and used the volume of influence the USA has?

In a post 9-11 world, the NDPs tone really is kind of silly.

 I would say misinformation has had it's effects in Canada and in the US.


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## zipperhead_cop (19 Aug 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> And yes Dion is somewhat justified in calling Harper Bush lite. "President" Harper rules his cabinet, shuffling the bodies will make no difference because he micro manages and has no real trust in his ministers.



And so what?  He is in charge.  That is what in charge people do, they move their personnel to suit their needs.  It is an inherently Liberal trait to retain performance anchors just because they have lingered around long enough and have a well worn teat they have been sucking at.  As for trusting in his ministers, unless you are in his cabinet, I don't think you can really speak to that.  No doubt the people who got back benched are a bit poo poo'd about it.  Thems the breaks.  
But explain how being decisive makes the leader of a nation a bad person?  And that makes him a GWB puppet?  You can argue all day long as to the value of President Bushes decisions, but regardless he has been decisive.  IMO one of the main reasons that nothing has gotten done in this country in the way of progressive government during the "dark years" was because the Liberals were too worried about catering to whomever favour they were currying.  As horrifying a prospect as it is, there is more to Canada than the GTA and Quebec.  
It would be a very interesting government if Parliamentary seats were allotted by land area (excluding the Territories, sorry guys)  There is a whole heap of the country that might like to see things go somewhere else other than a lawyer from Quebec's imagination.


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## DaveTee (20 Aug 2007)

Anti-Americanism is the new fad. When I talk to people at university or other in my age group I get the silliest "arguments" as to why they dislike Americans. It's just the trendy thing to do right now, and no one can distinguish between the American government and the average American Joe. It seems the Liberals, like the NDP are only taking opinions that will win them votes, and not mean a thing. This thread was made to discuss Mr. Dion's "American Idol" and other comments, and going back to that...What a ridiculous thing to say on his part. Take the airtime you get to talk about ISSUES, not spew garbage.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Aug 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> And yes Dion is somewhat justified in calling Harper Bush lite. "President" Harper rules his cabinet, shuffling the bodies will make no difference because he micro manages and has no real trust in his ministers.



It truly baffles me how you can read minds like that but waste your talent hanging around on milnet.ca with just us normal folk..............

Folks, when making unsubstantiated statements about people, please use words that might be a little less libelous like "appears to, I think, in my opinion, etc.

Thank you.


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## Flip (20 Aug 2007)

> And yes Dion is somewhat justified in calling Harper Bush lite. "President" Harper rules his cabinet, shuffling the bodies will make no difference because he micro manages and has no real trust in his ministers.



Of coarse he micro manages.
He is the leader of a new bunch of MPs that form a minority government.
(I think) the style of the government would be different if there were a
 majority in place.

And Bush is the worst in history?!? - I doubt it.
If Kerry had won that second term out from under GW we would see "worst in history".

Personally, I think Harper will get along fine with the likely Pres. Clinton.
The two political systems are not that closely linked. They don't have to be partisan
with each other.  Hillary is probably as conservative as Harper is. Harper is probably
as liberal as Hillary.


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## Greymatters (20 Aug 2007)

DaveTee said:
			
		

> Anti-Americanism is the new fad.



No, its been around too long to be a fad.  It is now ingrained in our culture.


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## DaveTee (20 Aug 2007)

It's become more of a hatred. It used to be just jokingly (in my experiences anyhow) and now it's like a fanatical hatred in a lot of small minded people.


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## Bane (20 Aug 2007)

Most Americans don't like their own government, why would any one expect many Canadians to like it.  He is a very a bad president, and Canada is very much affected by U.S. policy right across the board, and there is a lot of legitimate, realist, concerns about many polices and positions that his administration takes and how they might affect us[ boarder crossing, Logging issues, Water access and NAFTA integration, NW passage rights, not to mention social issues etc...]  There has also been a tension between the U.S. and (proto)-Canada since long before the war of independence, and I'm willing to bet it's been worse at some point in the past and that it is a permanent feature of the North American political landscape. That said, America is not a nazi-totalitarian state as many leftist alarmists, and ultra-libertarians, have been claiming for several decades now, and thank God they are not; but their country is, for the good of Canada and progressive civilization as a whole, in need of a revitalization of itself. I think many people, American, Canadian and otherwise pick up on that idea at least in part, yet perhaps do not articulate it very well.  I, for one, hold a great a appreciation and for Americans and their attitude in general, and an intense dislike for their government.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (20 Aug 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> No, its been around too long to be a fad.  It is now ingrained in our culture.



I would agree. This has been around for a long time and is not a fad. when I was in HS and University in Ottawa (back in the dark ages) it was very chic for alot of students to go and protest outside the US Embassy on Wellington St. The Vietnam war was on at the time and peace signs and "love is all you need" were au courant. I even attended one of those protests out of curiosity just to see what it was all about. I was 17 and found the whole thing pretty stupid. It was really just an excuse for a bunch of extremely biased and uninformed people to smoke a lot of dope and chant a lot of tripe.  M. Dion et al and Mr Layton are simply playing a well known tune in Canada. It's called "Pull the Tail Feathers off the Eagle." As long as the eagle doesn't notice, they think it looks cool to go waving the trophy feathers around in public. Mr Chretien got burned playing that game as he lost a lot of credibility in the US due to the fact that they noticed. Unfortunately Canadians suffered because of it. Mr Dion is a Chretien clone...what do you expect of him?,


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## DaveTee (21 Aug 2007)

Those are good points...I guess it just seems new to me because I haven't had much exposure to it until recently. I think it's fair for people to dislike a government, but you can't blame day to day Americans, as has been recently said. I think that is a fair position to take. On the other hand the view that "all Americans suck" is just rubbish, as we seem to all agree.


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## Flip (21 Aug 2007)

Modern America is like ancient Rome.
You might be a Roman subject but there are only a few Roman citizens.

If all of the people who lived under American influence could vote
in US elections or had some sway over how said 
influence applies to them there would be little "anti-Americanism".

We all periodically forget how American influence benefits us - we just get 
grumpy about a lack of control.  We find our country is at war.
It's easier to blame GWB than apply the the blame to the enemy.
(ridiculous of course)

What is remarkable, is that so many people in so many countries have democratic
processes, politics and agendas of their own while still sharing the big umbrella.


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## retiredgrunt45 (27 Aug 2007)

All this "anti-american" sentiment has put a bur under my seat. How different are we from the Americans? If anyone sat down and tried to "honestly" write down on a piece of paper the real differences between our two countries, they would be hard pressed to find very many. I'm a proud Canadian, but I'm also not going to fool myself, by saying we are so different from the Americans.

The fact is there isn't. Our two societies are so closely woven together, that we could be called one in the same, this will probably miff some people, but it's the fact of the matter. Just as we share a continent, we also share 90% of each others culture, not 50, not 75, but 90%. We have more in common with the Americans, that any anyone else on the planet. And if you think otherwise, your are just fooling yourself. So for those Canadians who would bash the Americans, your also bashing yourself. Keep that in mind the next time you find yourself on a "anti-american" rant, or the next time you stop at a McDonald's and buy a "Big Mac". like it or not, we all embrace American culture, the very same culture some of us find so evil. If that's the case, stop buying American automobiles, stop buying fast food, I didn't think so... It's one thing to bash a government and it's policies, it's another entirely to bash a country as a whole. I myself personally have some very close dear American friends, who would do almost anything for me, as I would for them. We visit on holidays, vacations at each others spots etc. When I'm in the US, people treat me very well and I do the same, when they come to Canada. Differences. what differences?

And to add, that if Canada was ever seriously threatened by outside forces, whether they be terrorist or other. Who do you think would be the first ones to come to our aid? As we would do the same for them. 

And to name a few in a long list of similarities.

1. Economic infrastructure
2. Trade (90% of what we produce or manufacturer is traded to the US)
3. Language (English, french, Spanish)
4. Democracy (Same)
5. Cultural backgrounds (immigrants, with exception to the first nations)
6. Entertainment (we all like American entertainment)
7. Industry ( Auto industry, steel, oil, food...) Do I have to go on.
8. Business opportunities and development (This one has to many to list)
9. Education 
10. Currency
11. Defence (We have more military personal on liaison positions with the Americans than any other country in the world) NORAD, the Pentagon, Joint forces training etc.


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## observor 69 (27 Aug 2007)

All true RG but make sure you buy that travel health insurance next time before going down.  
I have friends and relatives who are Americans and I spent a few years working in Texas. But I must point out that our social programs protect our citizens more effectively than theirs. Our financially sound CPP and  Old Age pension, plus our universal health insurance program, being the big ones.


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## Remius (27 Aug 2007)

It has been around for while.  Like since the late 1700's when 50 000+ loyalists were forced north of the border after the war of independance.  Then not long after the war of 1812.  Is it part of the culture?  Yes.  Is it hatred?  I doubt it.  I'm not  a big fan of the American political system or some policies but I like most Americans I've met.  Yeah, the ones in South Carolina are certainly different, nice people, polite and some don't know anything about anything outside their own county.  Oh and Alaskans are pretty nice too, very much like people from the Yukon.  So on and so on.  Just like Canada we have a diverse multitude of people.  I like the heart on your sleeve attitude of maritimers but I'm not too fond of the Toronto "centre of the universe" attitude.  Etc etc.  Same goes for the states.  You may not like the republicans but you may like the Democrats.  Blah blah.  How many Americans were accomodated in Canada after the 911 crashes?  Not bad for a country that "hates" the US.

Maybe Wes can expand on this.  When I was in Australia, I found New Zealanders had a similar view of Australia, that Canadians have/had of the US. 

Anyway, the point is that this will always be a part of our culture, but we are more alike than we like to think.  And it isn't hate, we just don't take a shine to the loud popular kid in school.  But we'll still help him with his homework for a little attention  ;D


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## Greymatters (27 Aug 2007)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> All this "anti-american" sentiment has put a bur under my seat. How different are we from the Americans? If anyone sat down and tried to "honestly" write down on a piece of paper the real differences between our two countries, they would be hard pressed to find very many. I'm a proud Canadian, but I'm also not going to fool myself, by saying we are so different from the Americans.



I think it is these similarities you quote that prop up and continue to drive continued anti-US sentiments.  Because we are so similiar it becomes even more important to differentiate between 'us' and 'them'.  Yes, Canadians are like Americans in a lot of ways, possibly up to 90% of our ways, but there are also key differences in culture, history and organization that make up the other 10% and we want everyone to know about it because we hate it when people in other countries think there is no difference between us, the same as when visitors confuse Belgique and French, or Italian and Sicilian.  

As you see I am taking you up on this challenge.  Here are a few differences I can see:

1. The right to bear arms - the US fought for its independence and embedded the right of arms into their consititution, while it was handed to us free on a platter as a defensive measure against US expansion.  
2. Foreign policy - the US has throughout history believed it has the right to 'correct' countries which do not think the same way as they do.  I dont believe Canada has ever 'invaded' another country (I'm sure anti-war groups will dispute this, but there you are...).
3. Use of economic and diplomatic power - our country uses its political and economic influence far less agressively and more cooperatively than the US.
4. Respect for the military and military achievements - US citizens, on average, have far greater respect and suppoirt for their military than our population does.
5. Health care - nuf said.
6. Socialism - a lot of the ways we do things in Canada are regarded as 'communist' in the US.  They only call us 'socialist' to distinguish the bears from teh beavers. 
7. Loyalty of entertainers and sports figures - too many of our (former) citizens go to the US because 'thats where the money is', which I dont blame them for doing if thats how you have to earn a living, but then they become US citizens permanently.  
8. Power of provinces versus states - our provinces have far less influence than a state has in regard to their right to control natural resources that the local populations are dependent on.  
9. Showing the flag - US citizens are proud to show the flag wherever they are, no matter where they are.  Canadians are far less 'flag-happy'.  
10. Popularity among other countries - again, nuf said.  

These are only my observations of course, and not everyone else may agree with them.   Regardless of the differences, I dont think they are enough to jusitify continued villification of a neighbouring country, especially since we are going to be neighbours for a long, long time.


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## Simon (27 Aug 2007)

Perhaps its that this prime minister, Mr. Harper,  is the first PM in 3 decades not to have been in the employ of Power Corp. and thats driving the eastern Canadian elitist industrial complex nuts.


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## Roy Harding (27 Aug 2007)

I've been to a few places in my life - including the United States.  I've worked with the military from a few countries, including the United States.

Here's what I've seen - take it for what it's worth.

Just about every civilian I've ever met, ANYWHERE, is concerned with providing for his family, giving them a better life than he had, and is worried about their future.  Louis Armstrong's song - "Hello Brother" probably says what I'm trying to say much better than I ever could.

Just about every serviceman I've ever met, from ANY country, privately disagrees with his government's position on any number of topics, and yet works to carry out that government's policies at a significant risk to his own life and limb.

Just about every person I've met, ANYWHERE, is justifiably proud of his home country.

Just about every serviceman I've met, from ANY country, is in despair regarding the civilians back home.

Just about everybody I've met will take umbrage at being classified as "the same as ... " some other country.  Germans/Austrians.  Kiwis/Aussies.  Poles/Ukrainians.  Canadians/Americans.  You name it.

I wish we as Canadians would be proud of who we ARE, what we HAVE, and what we DO - instead of spending time and energy to convince others of what we're NOT.

Roy


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## midget-boyd91 (27 Aug 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> I wish we as Canadians would be proud of who we ARE, what we HAVE, and what we DO - instead of spending time and energy to convince others of what we're NOT.



That deserves to be plastered across every airwave and every TV program. We've all taken it for granted that most of us don't realize that the mixed personal opinions of a family half a world away have no effect on how we feel about our home.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (27 Aug 2007)

My son just got back from working in Texas for the summer on a student visa. I've never seen anyone happier to be "home" in my life. Now part of that is that he likes his Mama's home cooking and living rent free in my basement.....but the other part is that he has stated to me un-categorically that "we are way different than Americans!" Don't shoot me I'm just the messanger and don't get me wrong, he enjoyed his time there. He graduated in May from St Mary's U so this isn't a dumb know nothing kid talking. In the course of my military career he's met a lot of different nationalities etc but living in a "foreign country" for 4 months opens your eyes to cultural and sociological differences.
I need to talk with him more to find out why he thinks that way but I think he got a real shock when talking to young people his age about the level of ignorance about people from other countries and cultures. As St Mary's was like going to school with the UN he takes for granted the respect and knowledge he has for other countries and cultures I guess.


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## Roy Harding (27 Aug 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> My son just got back from working in Texas for the summer on a student visa. I've never seen anyone happier to be "home" in my life. Now part of that is that he likes his Mama's home cooking and living rent free in my basement.....but the other part is that he has stated to me un-categorically that "we are way different than Americans!" Don't shoot me I'm just the messanger and don't get me wrong, he enjoyed his time there. He graduated in May from St Mary's U so this isn't a dumb know nothing kid talking. In the course of my military career he's met a lot of different nationalities etc but living in a "foreign country" for 4 months opens your eyes to cultural and sociological differences.
> I need to talk with him more to find out why he thinks that way but I think he got a real shock when talking to young people his age about the level of ignorance about people from other countries and cultures. As St Mary's was like going to school with the UN he takes for granted the respect and knowledge he has for other countries and cultures I guess.



The first experience always is "eye opening".

It's not 'till later that you start realizing the similarities - it sounds like you've a fine son - I'm sure he'll do well.


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## Old Sweat (27 Aug 2007)

IHS

We often forget that we are sitting beside a superpower. That is not the case for the US, and Texans are probably focussed on Mexico and points south. The US is also a big country with the population distributed fairly evenly across it; hence Iowa or Oregon or Maine is near foreign to a Texan. 

My wife taught school when we were posted in the US. She noted that state and then national history were well taught; the rest was more or less left by the wayside.

Sweatie


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## IN HOC SIGNO (27 Aug 2007)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> IHS
> 
> We often forget that we are sitting beside a superpower. That is not the case for the US, and Texans are probably focussed on Mexico and points south. The US is also a big country with the population distributed fairly evenly across it; hence Iowa or Oregon or Maine is near foreign to a Texan.
> 
> ...



I think he was quite taken aback by the chauvinism...not just male chauvinism although that is present to some degree....but the idea that Texas and the US is all you need to know about, It's daunting for a kid who's been raised to believe that other countries and cultures deserve respect and understanding. He did say that where he was, in Austin, was a lot different than where he spent his final month, Houston. He found the folks in Austin to be much more cosmopolitan than in Houston but that wasn't saying a lot. I agree that it's a big country but I'm not sure that that excuses not being intellectually curious about the rest of the country or the world, especially by those with a post secondary education. 
Having said that I remember visiting in Florida one year (1972) and finding it difficult to get National i.e. US news, let alone international news and finding it quite odd that a state that plays host to the world's snow birds would be so parochial.


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## TCBF (27 Aug 2007)

Simon Plant said:
			
		

> Perhaps its that this prime minister, Mr. Harper,  is the first PM in 3 decades not to have been in the employ of Power Corp. and thats driving the eastern Canadian elitist industrial complex nuts.



- Good first post!  Will anyone rise to dispute the un-disputable?

op:


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## GAP (27 Aug 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> My son just got back from working in Texas for the summer on a student visa. I've never seen anyone happier to be "home" in my life. Now part of that is that he likes his Mama's home cooking and living rent free in my basement.....but the other part is that he has stated to me un-categorically that "we are way different than Americans!" Don't shoot me I'm just the messanger and don't get me wrong, he enjoyed his time there. He graduated in May from St Mary's U so this isn't a dumb know nothing kid talking. In the course of my military career he's met a lot of different nationalities etc but living in a "foreign country" for 4 months opens your eyes to cultural and sociological differences.
> I need to talk with him more to find out why he thinks that way but I think he got a real shock when talking to young people his age about the level of ignorance about people from other countries and cultures. As St Mary's was like going to school with the UN he takes for granted the respect and knowledge he has for other countries and cultures I guess.



30+ years ago it was the same....very self focused. Made may good friends etc. but as a rule of thumb, most just dismissed everywhere else as unimportant.


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## Flip (27 Aug 2007)

Yes, Americans are "Americentric"

But the thing that confuses non-Americans is that America is run by commitee
in a way that no other country I can think of is.
The dazzling array of special interests and lobbys never really gets noticed 
from the outside.

It's easy to vilify what you don't understand.

When I've traveled on business I've witnessed greatness and great ignominity.
- actually quite amazing.

Personally I think Canada is the best thing that has ever happened to the USA!
They wouldn't be what they are without us. ;D


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## retiredgrunt45 (28 Aug 2007)

> Yes, Americans are "Americentric"
> 
> But the thing that confuses non-Americans is that America is run by commitee
> in a way that no other country I can think of is.
> ...




"Put another steak on the barbie Margerat, Flip's coming over for dinner" ;D


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## Flip (28 Aug 2007)

I'll have mine rare please Margaret......

I'll bring some Merlot.... ;D


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## TCBF (28 Aug 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...
> 1. The right to bear arms - the US fought for its independence and embedded the right of arms into their consititution, while it was handed to us free on a platter as a defensive measure against US expansion.


- Untrue.  The US codified RKBA  which originates as far back as the Magna carta inspired democratic writings in middle aged England.  We have the same rights under common law, but are voluntarily giving them up as time passes by.  You use a right or lose it.



			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...
> 2. Foreign policy - the US has throughout history believed it has the right to 'correct' countries which do not think the same way as they do.  I dont believe Canada has ever 'invaded' another country (I'm sure anti-war groups will dispute this, but there you are...).


- It was the rest of the world who begged and pleaded and coerced the USA into helping with WW1 and WW2.  If you want the USA to return to a policy of economically self-sufficient isolationism, just say so.  Be careful what you wish for.



			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...
> 3. Use of economic and diplomatic power - our country uses its political and economic influence far less agressively and more cooperatively than the US.


-And far less effectively.  Had we their power, would we be so magnanomous? Doubtful.



			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...
> 4. Respect for the military and military achievements - US citizens, on average, have far greater respect and suppoirt for their military than our population does.


- Maybe that's because a lot of our current population are plastic Canadians, as compared to being real Canadians who have a personal 'Canada First' policy.

5.





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ... Health care - nuf said.


- Yup.  That's why our Prov Health Care 'Crats send so many of us to the USA when we are sick, right?  And why they have policies regarding limiting expensive procedures for Canadians over 80, right?  And why only Steve Harper waits in a waiting room while the rest of the former Junta get special treatment, right?

6. 





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...Socialism - a lot of the ways we do things in Canada are regarded as 'communist' in the US.  They only call us 'socialist' to distinguish the bears from teh beavers.


- Are they right?  Are we Communist?  

7. 





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...Loyalty of entertainers and sports figures - too many of our (former) citizens go to the US because 'thats where the money is', which I dont blame them for doing if thats how you have to earn a living, but then they become US citizens permanently.


- It's a free country.  Jamaicans, Sri Lankans and Somalis can say the same about us.

8. 





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...Power of provinces versus states - our provinces have far less influence than a state has in regard to their right to control natural resources that the local populations are dependent on.


- BNA Act gives resources to the provinces.

9. 





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...Showing the flag - US citizens are proud to show the flag wherever they are, no matter where they are.  Canadians are far less 'flag-happy'.


- We are rapidly becoming "Ugly Canadians". Too smug. Too arrogant. 

10. 





			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...Popularity among other countries - again, nuf said.


- Everyone hates a winner.  Envy.  
  



			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> ...These are only my observations of course, and not everyone else may agree with them.   Regardless of the differences, I dont think they are enough to jusitify continued villification of a neighbouring country, especially since we are going to be neighbours for a long, long time.


- We should all agree with you on this.  Who else would you rather have as a neighbour?


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## retiredgrunt45 (28 Aug 2007)

> ...These are only my observations of course, and not everyone else may agree with them.   Regardless of the differences, I dont think they are enough to jusitify continued villification of a neighbouring country, especially since we are going to be neighbours for a long, long time.





> We should all agree with you on this.  Who else would you rather have as a neighbour?



Two more steaks on the BBQ Margerat, got 2 more coming for dinner. TCBF and Greymatter, and  Flips bringing over some merlot. One more person and we'll have ourselves a party.  ;D


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Aug 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> It's daunting for a kid who's been raised to believe that other countries and cultures deserve respect and understanding.



It would be interesting if you could remember this point in his life, and in ten years ask him if he still feels the same.  Respect and understanding; yes.  Subversion and abasement of the founding principles of this country; no.  The whole multiculturalism myth that we continue to suffer under is shredding this country.  I think that is one area the Americans blow us away.  America first, whatever else second.  However, that is a topic already capably covered elsewhere.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (29 Aug 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It would be interesting if you could remember this point in his life, and in ten years ask him if he still feels the same.  Respect and understanding; yes.  Subversion and abasement of the founding principles of this country; no.  The whole multiculturalism myth that we continue to suffer under is shredding this country.  I think that is one area the Americans blow us away.  America first, whatever else second.  However, that is a topic already capably covered elsewhere.



I wasn't talking about multi culturalism. I was talking about the respect and understanding we have for other countries and cultures in the world. I think it shows particularly in our approach to foreign policy and when we are guests in other countries. America first is exactly the chauvinism I was talking about that no one else is worthy of even considering or learning about, that all that is important is contained within the borders of the US...or your own state.
There's nothing wrong with being an ardent American or Canadian....but understanding that the rest of the world isn't is an important concept that he saw lacking in many that he met.


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## observor 69 (29 Aug 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I wasn't talking about multi culturalism. I was talking about the respect and understanding we have for other countries and cultures in the world. I think it shows particularily in our approach to foriegn policy and when we are guests in other countries. America first is exactly the chavanism I was talking about that no one else is worthy of even considering or learning about, that all that is important is contained within the borders of the US...or your own state.
> There's nothing wrong with being an ardent American or Canadian....but understanding that the rest of the world isn't is an important concept that he saw lacking in many that he met.



Well said. I was going to make comment based on my US experiences along these same lines but didn't feel capable of expressing the thought clearly.


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## SiG_22_Qc (29 Aug 2007)

Their hypocrisy and "as long as they existed" foreign policies(cover ops, staging coup, political assassination) makes me sick to my stomach. Waging wars in others countries/throwing nuclear bombs(vietnam/iraq/korea/serbia/iran/japan), and at the same time saying you're christian and you're the good guy. That makes me sick. Other than that i like the U.S.A, and i don't think that makes me anti-american, if i would be i'd be anti-canadian, if you can find MAJOR differences between UsA and Canada overall, let me know.

Oh yeahm, we got a Queen(official top ruler of Canada), and they don't. Plus i don't think Harper's GWB's handpuppet, anyone who'd be in his pants would act as nice[canada's top trading traffic country], we need good relations with americans their foreign affairs aren't canadian business afterall and canadian politicians would rather not meddle with it.


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## Kat Stevens (29 Aug 2007)

The US nuked Iran, Iraq, Korea, Serbia, and Viet Nam?  Was it in the papers?  Never should have let my subscription to The Weekly World News lapse, I guess.


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## DaveTee (29 Aug 2007)

It wasn't on the news much, it happened while Paris Hilton was in jail...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Aug 2007)

SiG_22_Qc said:
			
		

> Their hypocrisy and "as long as they existed" foreign policies(cover ops, staging coup, political assassination) makes me sick to my stomach. Waging wars in others countries/throwing nuclear bombs(vietnam/iraq/korea/serbia/iran/japan), and at the same time saying you're christian and you're the good guy. That makes me sick. Other than that i like the U.S.A, and i don't think that makes me anti-american, if i would be i'd be anti-canadian, if you can find MAJOR differences between UsA and Canada overall, let me know.



DING DING DING.......and we have a winner of the stupid paragraph of the week contest.

Sig 22.........get a grip on your posts.
Since you have already been in the warning system, next step would be read-only for you.


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## Remius (29 Aug 2007)

I caught the jist of what he was saying.  I think the nuke comment was for Japan and the waging wars in other countries was for the rest.  A little incoherent.  Sig, you forgot Germany, Italy and North Africa and Belgium and France.  Damn those Yanks for meddling themselves in WW1 and 2 eh?

There are MAJOR differences between us.  We just have to express them in a more confident , less us vs them attitude.  We have a lot to be proud of, we just need to be proud of the stuff we are/have, not the stuff we think we are not. (Not sure if that came out right or not  )


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## kommando17 (29 Aug 2007)

Ya dion will never have my vote. The Librals had thier chance and they blew it. I am happy with our government at the moment. Stephen Harper is doing well in my books. As for the personal attacks. Dion is supposed to be a leader, not a cry-baby. lol. GOOD TOPIC THOUGH


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## retiredgrunt45 (29 Aug 2007)

I think the point of this discussion is summed up in a few short sentences.

In life when we have a dispute with our neighbours we can always get up and move to another neighbourhood, but...

1. We can't move Canada
2. We can't move the U.S
3. Whatever you may think of the U.S, it will always be "there". So instead of wasting energy trying to find ways to "lipsmack" them, why don't we find ways to try and get along. I'd admit sometimes they come across as being arrogant, self centred, blah,blah, blah, but we are far better of with them, than we are without them, for so many reasons.

Let me put it another way. Who would you rather have as a neighbour. And please be honest.

1. Russia
2. China
3. Mexico
4. United States

If you chose any of the first three, then clearly you have never lived in Canada, or you have long been isolated from society.


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Aug 2007)

kommando17 said:
			
		

> Ya dion will never have my vote. The Librals had thier chance and they blew it. I am happy with our government at the moment. Stephen Harper is doing well in my books. As for the personal attacks. Dion is supposed to be a leader, not a cry-baby. lol. GOOD TOPIC THOUGH



Why is it everywhere we look, you have to have an opinion and a senseless one at that...k17 you look like you are babbling. Do yourself a favour and start reading instead of posting.


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## Flip (30 Aug 2007)

When I read something written on the left side of the aisle
or perhaps the left-out side I keep seeing this word "hypocrisy"

The only way you can actually believe that is accurate, is if you are confused.
Let me elaborate on my previous point.

The US government consists of three competing and often conflicted arms.
US lobbies consist of grass roots organizations all pulling in different directions.
The US States All have their own competing  interests and I won't go near industrial relations.  :

To imagine that this maze of competing interests could form the single minded
intent required for "hypocrisy" is either overt revisionist vilification or just plain
uninformed.

The four great English speaking nations are in many respects like family.
A mother land with three sisters as daughters. Each with their own unique 
interconnected history. And for many of us, the the "Americans" are family.

EDIT:


> DING DING DING.......and we have a winner of the stupid paragraph of the week contest.


I thank God this wasn't me who got "dinged" ;D

Bye the way, ever live in a house with three sisters? I have


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## observor 69 (30 Aug 2007)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Why is it everywhere we look, you have to have an opinion and a senseless one at that...k17 you look like you are babbling. Do yourself a favour and start reading instead of posting.



+10


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Aug 2007)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> +10


LOL ...nah got me another demote


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## SiG_22_Qc (30 Aug 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> DING DING DING.......and we have a winner of the stupid paragraph of the week contest.
> 
> Sig 22.........get a grip on your posts.
> Since you have already been in the warning system, next step would be read-only for you.



What do i win? Saying one's thoughts are stupid is one thing, not pointing out how or why is worst.
I believe i have the right to bear an opinion and respectfully express it on this forum.
If you believe anything i've said is false, or dishonest, or disrespectful i'll be glad to explain it to you.
Bring the ban or bring a smart reply, both are welcomed.


I'm actually serving my country, what about you? (wannabe?) 

P.S. And about your ding ding ding sentence, pretty easy to hide in front of your computer screen isnt it?


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## George Wallace (30 Aug 2007)

If I may.



			
				SIG_22_QC said:
			
		

> What do i win? Saying one's thoughts are stupid is one thing, not pointing out how or why is worst.
> I believe i have the right to bear an opinion and respectfully express it on this forum.
> If you believe anything i've said is false, or dishonest, or disrespectful i'll be glad to explain it to you.
> Bring the ban or bring a smart reply, both are welcomed.
> ...



I, along with many others on this site, dare you to make any sense out of the following Post.




			
				SIG_22_QC said:
			
		

> Their hypocrisy and "as long as they existed" foreign policies(cover ops, staging coup, political assassination) makes me sick to my stomach. Waging wars in others countries/throwing nuclear bombs(vietnam/iraq/korea/serbia/iran/japan), and at the same time saying you're christian and you're the good guy. That makes me sick. Other than that i like the U.S.A, and i don't think that makes me anti-american, if i would be i'd be anti-canadian, if you can find MAJOR differences between UsA and Canada overall, let me know.
> 
> Oh yeahm, we got a Queen(official top ruler of Canada), and they don't. Plus i don't think Harper's GWB's handpuppet, anyone who'd be in his pants would act as nice[canada's top trading traffic country], we need good relations with americans their foreign affairs aren't canadian business afterall and canadian politicians would rather not meddle with it.



Shake your head!


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## the 48th regulator (30 Aug 2007)

SIG_22_QC said:
			
		

> What do i win? Saying one's thoughts are stupid is one thing, not pointing out how or why is worst.
> I believe i have the right to bear an opinion and respectfully express it on this forum.
> If you believe anything i've said is false, or dishonest, or disrespectful i'll be glad to explain it to you.
> Bring the ban or bring a smart reply, both are welcomed.
> ...



Your wish is my command,

And by the way, Bruce served while you were being served your food out of a jar.

dileas

tess

edit for spelling and grammar


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## Greymatters (30 Aug 2007)

SIG_22_QC said:
			
		

> What do i win? Saying one's thoughts are stupid is one thing,...



Although these types of comments are temporarily entertaining, its unfortunate that you Mods give so many warnings but the guy doesnt take the hint.   

Plus it takes the interest out of the whole thread when it gets dragged through the mud...


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Aug 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Although these types of comments are temporarily entertaining, its unfortunate that you Mods give so many warnings but the guy doesnt take the hint.
> 
> Plus it takes the interest out of the whole thread when it gets dragged through the mud...



Not to mention the people that pile on and drag it further off track after we have sorted the problem out. :


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## Greymatters (30 Aug 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not to mention the people that pile on and drag it further off track after we have sorted the problem out. :



Oops... am I doing that?


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## Simon (30 Aug 2007)

tough crowd ;D


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## Bane (30 Aug 2007)

This thread is just itching to be locked, and hopefully it will happen sooner than later.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Aug 2007)

....and I scratched that itch. [hiding in front of my screen of course.]


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