# Military Messes - A question of authority



## MudGnr (16 Oct 2009)

I have a problem that I desperately need solved.  Please help!

The Background
The CO of our regiment has recently come into power and it is evident to most all ranks, that his priority is making himself and "his" regiment look good; he does as he pleases.

The Problem
-This CO has decided to move the SR NCO & OFFICER's mess from its current location and take over one of the rooms from the current JR's mess. (they are taking our largest room, we are now forced to move to the smaller one).  The reason for this is that the SR's mess does not make a profit and they have moved to share the success of the JR's mess.
-In addition, the CO has decreed that effective Dec 1, whatever funds the JR's mess has not spent will be amalgamated into the new "joint" bank account between the two messes.
-The CO held a meeting with the JR's mess where he asked for suggestions and opinions and said (I am not kidding about this one) "It really doesn't matter what you have to say though, I'm going to do what I want."
-The CO has also made it clear that if he does not like what the JR's mess decides to spend their money on, he will veto the decision and spend it as he believes it should be spent.

My question is this:  
-Is there a document or resource which sets out how messes are to be run? (other than QR&O 27.01)
-Does the CO have the authority to do what he chooses to the JR's mess?
-Is there anything a PMC can do to "dig in our heels" and oppose him?
-In a combined mess, are purchases/decisions still up for vote in a mess meeting or does the CO have authority to veto anything and impose his decision?

This is not an attempt at whining.  If this is truly permitted and common practice then so be it.  I simply have the feeling it's not.

Any suggestions or similar experiences would be greatly appreciated.


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## dapaterson (16 Oct 2009)

See also CFAO 27-1, which expands on the QR&O:



> 6.     The approving authority for the establishment, suspension or closing
> of a mess is:
> 
> a.   for a Regular Force Mess, the officer commanding the parent
> ...


(CFAOs are only on the DWAN now, alas)

There is also a great deal of inforamtion on messes and their operation at the CFPSA web site.  See:

http://www.cfpsa.com/en/PSP/messes/index.asp


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## Osotogari (16 Oct 2009)

Snr NCOs and Offrs messing together?  I don't know how the Snr NCOs stood for that, obviously someone along the line didn't stand up for themselves.  

If you haven't had a mess meeting yet, then call one ASAP.  You'll need to pass motions, but I would recommend you find out your arcs as to what you can and cannot spend your money on and START SPENDING.

I would recommend some sort of party on/around 30 Nov,  including entertainment.  There's other things you can do such as gifts, furniture repair.  Talk to your brigade's NPF clerk (don't mention why) for guidelines.  

It would be really cool to give him a cheque for $9.35


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## Occam (16 Oct 2009)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> It would be really cool to give him a cheque for $9.35



I like the way you think.   >


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## Monsoon (16 Oct 2009)

I'm not sure I understand - these look like two issues:

1 - The Officers' and Snr NCOs' mes (which is already combined) is being moved into a space formerly used by the JRs' mess; and

2 - The bank accounts for the JRs' mess and the Os&SNCOs mess will be "combined" on 1 Dec.

To begin with, I can only say that my experience is based on the navy, which governs this sort of thing through the Naval NPF Manual, which, in turn, is based on Treasury Board Guidelines. I have always assumed that the army and air force had their respective equivalents; I would talk to your LogO to find out what governs your unit. In any event, the TB guidelines remain in effect. Here's my read on the two issues:

1 - Unless the JRs' mess specifically rents the spaces it currently uses from CF (or the regimental association, if your building is owned by one), then the CO can reallocate spaces as he sees fit. It's a bit of a dick move, but there there isn't much you can do to stop it from happening.

2 - As I understand it, all NPF accounts in the CF are actually amalgamated into a single bank account (the CF Central Fund that's managed by the CFPSA) and each individual mess is an notional allocation within that account, so I don't see what "amalgamating the accounts" means in this context. It may be that for whatever reason your unit holds separate bank accounts for each mess and that your CO is talking about having to merge the accounts into the Central Fund (i.e. it's not his decision to make - he's been told to). If that's the case, your mess doesn't lose any spending authority over its assets, the funds are just being managed differently.

If however, as you seem to think, your CO is just going to appropriate the JRs' mess funds and put them under the control of a central decision-making committee, then in effect what he's done is to create one single mess. I believe that would require the approval of the mess itself, in that case, and would be easy enough to block.

That being said, I have a hunch that you may be misinterpreting issue 2 in light of your dissatisfaction with issue 1. The person to talk to is your LogO to fin out exactly what's going on. With respect to "fighting back", in the navy at least the PMC of the JRs' mess is an appointment of the CO (though often made following a vote by the mess), and the CO has wide discretionary power to block mess expenses he things are ill-advised or, worse, fraudulent. Though in the navy, the CO is also not a member of the Wardroom specifically to avoid this sort of inter-mess animosity.


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## a_majoor (16 Oct 2009)

The underlying motive seems to be the lack of profitability of the current combined Sgt and Officer's mess. Amalgamating space and taking the profits is your new CO's solution, but profitability only comes if the seller has something the buyer wants. This is actually a different topic; all I will say is if the current Sgt and Officer's mess doesn't offer something that the members want, it will remain unprofitable regardless of location.

IF the CO is really interested in expropriating the JR profits for whatever purposes he finds suitable, then the solution is self evident: go home at the end of the parade night, or meet elsewhere. No sales at the JR = no profits to be taken.


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## TCBF (16 Oct 2009)

- I have observed that Reservists have in the past responded to being alledgedly dicked around by voting with their feet. They walked away and stayed home.  The classic insult from an former CO to a current one has always been "The men showed up for ME, wot'in Hell is YOUR problem?"

 ;D


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## MudGnr (16 Oct 2009)

I agree with the idea of voting with our feet and it will be done as a last resort.  I myself was the PMC of the JR's for a number of years and I would hate to see it collapse again.

As far as expenditures go, you guys are right.  We have the ability to spend up to and including $500 without the CO's approval; anything above that we require his signature. 



> I'm not sure I understand - these look like two issues:
> 
> 1 - The Officers' and Snr NCOs' mes (which is already combined) is being moved into a space formerly used by the JRs' mess; and
> 
> 2 - The bank accounts for the JRs' mess and the Os&SNCOs mess will be "combined" on 1 Dec.



Correct on both.  Our Sr's and Officers are already combined and now it appears the CO is trying to combine the two former with the JR's, including the accounts.. 



> It may be that for whatever reason your unit holds separate bank accounts for each mess and that your CO is talking about having to merge the accounts into the Central Fund (i.e. it's not his decision to make - he's been told to). If that's the case, your mess doesn't lose any spending authority over its assets, the funds are just being managed differently.



You may be right, I don't know much about the Central CFPSA controlled account.  The way it worked when I was PMC was that the JR's had a local TD Canada Trust bank account.  Whenever there was a change of hand in committee members, there would have to be a change of signing authority over the account and we always went to the local branch to do that.  (along with deposits).

Thanks for the advice though.  It looks like a have a bit of reading and some phone calls to make.  Thanks for pointing me in a direction; I will advise regarding results.


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## kratz (16 Oct 2009)

I do not have access to the Naval NPF Manual at home, but this CFPSA reference discussing combined mess, para 17 echo's what I remember.



> 17. Messes may be established at each unit for officers, officer cadets (where
> warranted), warrant officers and sergeants, and junior ranks. COs may authorize a
> combined mess when the number of CF members will not support separate Messes. COs
> may co-locate Messes for other reasons such as resource limitations, geography, or other
> unique circumstances.



As mentioned by others above, the JRs should hold a mess meeting and vote on the motion to not combine with the SR mess. There is an NPF reference, a lower level mess (ie: C&PO) may apply to combine with a higher level mess (WDRM). It is my understanding, the reverse is not be done if the JRs are a viable operation on it's own. 

If the merger of space is intended to share bartenders, bar facilities yet maintain separate social spaces, that would not be considered a combined mess.


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## dapaterson (16 Oct 2009)

CFP 262 (t the CFPSA link above) is the CF's Mess Administration manual.  It should be on the quick reference list of anyone named to a mess committee.

Reserve messes are generally not under the CFCF; that entity works fine for base elements, but with all the remote locations of Reserve units they usually have local banking arrangements instead.

Messes exist under the authority of a CO.  A mess cannot vote to override the CO; however, if things get to that point, there are much larger problems afoot.

Again, CFAO 27-1 (DWAN only) has more information on messes.  That together with CFP 262 are the best places to start.


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## aesop081 (16 Oct 2009)

Osotogari said:
			
		

> Snr NCOs and Offrs messing together?  I don't know how the Snr NCOs stood for that, obviously someone along the line didn't stand up for themselves.



Oh the horror  :


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## X-mo-1979 (16 Oct 2009)

It's different to see someone in the NCM rank actually worried about their mess.I know with most of us could care less if the mess got turned into the CO's personal skating rink.

Our mess here in Petawawa is the home of lonely Cpl's the 80's left behind,who somehow thinks you and your buddies need to hear their divorce story....even though you have never seen him before.

Amalgamated mess isn't such a horrible thing.I would be all for it.Imagine people who work together having a few beer in the same room THE HORROR! ;D

The rank segregation thing in my mind is B/S.Take a look at Hussar and LDSH(RC) that find it necessary to have Mcpl's have their own little mess/eating kitchen.

I think there may be a lot of unknowns going on here in your situation.


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## Kat Stevens (16 Oct 2009)

In Chilliwack in the 80s we had a series of B Comds who routinely shot down any motion from the JRC to spend our own money. Coincidentally, we also had "combined" mess funds (read "the JRC kept the grownups messes open with our money), and whatever wasn't spent at the end of the FY got divvied up equally between messes.  Not that I suspect any skulduggery, but we couldn't even get our rotten picnic tables repaired, and the SNCOs mess put on very swanky "beer garden opening" parties with free swag galore.


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## Monsoon (17 Oct 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> In Chilliwack in the 80s we had a series of B Comds who routinely shot down any motion from the JRC to spend our own money. Coincidentally, we also had "combined" mess funds (read "the JRC kept the grownups messes open with our money).


I have a hunch that if anyone was subsidizing the Chilliwack messes, it was the steady troop of CFOCS students paying full dues who each set foot in their mess once.


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## Kat Stevens (17 Oct 2009)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I have a hunch that if anyone was subsidizing the Chilliwack messes, it was the steady troop of CFOCS students paying full dues who each set foot in their mess once.



I'm going to just go ahead and guess that you never went to a Friday Happy Hour at the Chilliwack JRC from 80-84 ish.  More cash went across that bar on a Friday night than the officers' mess made in a month.  I'll see your CFOCS, and raise you CFB Chilliwack pers, 1 CER, and CFSME.


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## aesop081 (17 Oct 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> but we couldn't even get our rotten picnic tables repaired, and the SNCOs mess put on very swanky "beer garden opening" parties with free swag galore.



Kat, you know as well as i do where the constant supply of brand new picnic tables at the WO & Sgts mess came from. I am sure that you, like myself, have built them during your time in RAWA. You know, the wood that was supposed to be used to build airfield decoys.......


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## CountDC (21 Oct 2009)

Didn't see it brought up so I will.

Going back a wee bit (ok quite a wee bit) I was the PMC of a mess when a team from Ottawa visited and audited all the reserve messes.  In this audit it was confirmed that a room being used as one of the units classrooms actually belonged to the mess and they had no authority to use it without my permission as PMC. Of course I was smart enough not to rock the boat too much and allowed them to continue to use it as long as it was kept clean for us when a function came up. The unit CO had no authority over it as the area was allocated to the Junior Ranks Mess and could not be changed by him, same with Officer and the Senior Ranks messes. He only controlled the allocation of unit lines.  I would suggest a call to your local CE Section to see what the building allocation is and find out if they are aware of the changes. Can't remember for sure but I believe it was the Area Comd that had to approve the mess changes.

If it is going to happen regardless make use of the means in hand to drain the account - Mess committee can spend up to 500 - then do it as much and as fast as possible. Does the mess give out departing gifts to members leaving the mess?  Stock up - the day before JR's closes give every member a departing gift as they are no longer members of that mess and are moving on to a new mess.  Don't forget the PMC Chit and Guest Chit if you have them. I use to randomly have a pizza night - ordered in $300 worth of pizza and gave it out for free to everyone that bought a drink.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Oct 2009)

The first door I would visit if I were the PMC in question is the RSMs office.  If he is against it, he might ask questions to the Bde RSM, who might bring it up to your Bde Cmdr.

From my experience in the Res world, some COs like to "do things their way" until Higher HQ gets wind of it.

Do your research on the Regulations side of the house, but as a PMC of a PRes Jnr Ranks Mess in a siutation like this, I'd be knockin' on the RSMs door.


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