# Buttstock markings



## Ken_577/450 (28 Feb 2010)

Hi, I enjoy shooting Victorian era rifles and was recently offered this 1887 Martini Henry which is said to be Canadian and has some markings as shown in the photo;







The stenciled CL VII appear to be incomplete or there could have been other numbers or letters in front of that and there is the number 108 stamped into the wood close to the buttplate. Do any know what either or both markings might be. I was thinking possibly 108 Bn. Selkirk and Manitoba for the wood stamp but that's just a guess. 

Thanks for any information or suggestions.


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

Wow, that's a good question.  I make no claims at knowing the answer, but I can give you some hints at what we do with marking kit in the modern day.

Our personal kit is all marked with a combination of our name and service number, such as Derek Jones with the number B12 345 678 would have "JON 678", but I don't think that's what it is (or initials, or whatever variant).

What typically gets marked on the weapons themselves are called "rack numbers", which makes things easier for the quartermaster.  So I might have the rifle with the serial number 87AA123456 but that's too much of a pain and all the other rifles of the unit might be very spread out, so we put these rack numbers on them that are much easier to track locally and then you're signing them out.  If you imagine 100 rifles literally sitting in a rack, in a locked room in the Armouries, and a soldier coming up and saying "Rack 14, please".  

Again, not saying that's what it is, but it's how we mark our rifles nowadays.

Good luck in your quest.


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## Ken_577/450 (28 Feb 2010)

Thanks Petamocto,  I recall seeing similar white paint markings turned yellow from oil and age and wood stampings on surplused WW1 vintage Lee Enfields years ago but I've never seen a site which gives explanation as to how to decypher them. Maybe an old school armorer will chime in and give some insight though.

Cheers, Ken


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## jeffb (28 Feb 2010)

Those letters look like they were painted on using a stencil. I wonder if they were added sometime long after the weapon was taken out of service? 

That being said, if your main effort is to find out if it's Canadian, check out http://www.martinihenry.co.uk/ for more info on the rifle.
If it is Canadian it's a rare find. Canada only had 7,000 Martini Henry's in total (2,100 MK I's and 5000 MK 3's I believe) in governmental service. The general service rifle at the time (1867 until about 1900) was the Snider breech loading conversion of the Enfield.   If you can identify what version you have (the website above can help you with that) you'll get a better idea if it's Canadian or not.


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## Ken_577/450 (28 Feb 2010)

Not sure if this will help but here's a photo of what are similar Martini Henry rifles with at least one that looks like a Mark IV pattern A type being used by a Canadian QOR group at a NRA shoot in 1893. The rifle actions in the photo are unclear but the one being held by the fellow with the badges on his left arm has what looks like a MH Mark IV distinctive 'humped receiver'.






http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/  search # 3422808

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/60294/post-559655.html#msg559655

.


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

Haha, great pic with glorious mustaches.  If I was the guy on the right (their left), I would be saying "Hey buds, mind pointing that thing away from my leg, please?"


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## Ken_577/450 (28 Feb 2010)

jeffb said:
			
		

> Canada only had 7,000 Martini Henry's in total (2,100 MK I's and 5000 MK 3's I believe) in governmental service. The general service rifle at the time (1867 until about 1900) was the Snider breech loading conversion of the Enfield.



Thanks Jeff, do you have a reference source for the amounts and MKs of Martini Henry's in Canadian service. Cheers.


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## Michael OLeary (28 Feb 2010)

You may find some help at this site too:

Victorian Wars Forum
http://www.victorianwars.com/


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## 1feral1 (1 Mar 2010)

Ken_577/450 said:
			
		

> Thanks Petamocto,  I recall seeing similar white paint markings turned yellow from oil and age and wood stampings on surplused WW1 vintage Lee Enfields years ago but I've never seen a site which gives explanation as to how to decypher them. Maybe an old school armorer will chime in and give some insight though.
> 
> Cheers, Ken



Firstly, nice rifle. I am in possession on a ME Cav carbine, in .303, with the 'original' action dated 1874, and converted to a ME in 1896. Smothered in NSW stampings on the butt. The only thing missing is the leather rear sight cover.

Your rifle is a long lever, which I do believe was intended for tropical environemnts.

I have Skennerton's MH/ME reference book, and thats all.

Your painted markings IMHO are not that old, and might be pre WWII or WWII vintage or later. This could be from any part of the world. I do not think they are Cdn markings.

As for the SMLE's appearing in the late 80's of UK and Australian manufacture, these were in LTS at Moorebank NSW and released to the public, most sold overseas. The yellow indicated Blanks only, although some might say DP. Some also say Cadet use, but I would stand behind the blanks only theory.

Regards, the crusty ole armourer you were seeking  ;D

Wes


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## Franko (1 Mar 2010)

Ken_577/450 said:
			
		

>



Hey, there's Recceguy......the second fella from the right.           ;D

Regards


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Mar 2010)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> Hey, there's Recceguy......the second fella from the right.           ;D
> 
> Regards



...........and the perceived GAF factor remains pretty well the same 

BTW, I do have one of those rifles, a MH .577\.450, in my lockup that I have taken out and shot on occasion.


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## MikeL (2 Mar 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> BTW, I do have one of those rifles, a MH .577\.450, in my lockup that I have taken out and shot on occasion.



I think I found a pic of one of those occasions


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