# Jumping the CoC



## bignic (8 Dec 2014)

I am currently a CPL in the CAF.  I have been in for 5 1/2 years now and put my paperwork in for an AVOTP of August this year.  My paperwork is still at my unit and I have asked repeatedly for it to be set to the BPSO so I can carry on the process. It has been a hassle the whole way through.  My deadline for my paperwork is Jan 16 2015 now I was wondering what else I could do to get it moving so I do not miss this deadline.

I have tried asking my immediate CoC and my Platoon Commander. I called the BPSO to see if I could do anything but they can't until they get the paperwork.  Today I wrote a memo addressed to the ADJT asking to send my paperwork off (as it is on his desk) that my Warrant approved.  My Platoon Commander talked to me after work and said he is refusing to send it higher.  I am really out of options here. Now my next step is to go to the ADJT myself but I was hoping there was something else I could do instead but I do not have anymore ideas.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2014)

Ask through your CoC for an interview with your CSM, then the RSM if that is an option.

You have the right to know why it is not being forwarded.


----------



## ballz (8 Dec 2014)

I was going to say the same thing as Mr. Seggie. I would recommend asking your WO to take you up to see the CSM about the issue. The CSM has the OC's ear, and the OC has the means to find the issue and sort it out no matter if its with the Adjt or the Pl Comd or somewhere else in between.

Don't take it upon yourself to walk into the Adjt's office asking what's going on with your application...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2014)

If your memo is addressed to your Adjt and your platoon commander is stopping it, I hope someone in your CofC finds this out and has a 'chat' with this individual.  

Did you explain to the BPSO what is going on?  Sometimes they will make a call to the unit to encourage them to fwd the paperwork and remind them they don't have the authority to stall and fuck with someone's AVOTP application, and you might not know they do it.

Agreed 100% with the Pl WO to CSM advice; don`t throw yourself under the bus for no good reason by skipping the CSM and not giving him the chance to sort the BS out.

Good luck, I know its frustrating - I went thru the same BS with my CofC and I know you want to make sure it goes thru on time.  

If I was your Pl WO, I would have already advised the Pl Comd he does not have the authority to stop the application and the memo to the Adjt and have given my Sgt-Maj a heads-up on what was going on...


----------



## bignic (8 Dec 2014)

Thanks for all the advice.  Yea my first option was definitely not just go up to the ADJT myself!  I will talk to my Warrant tomorrow and let him know.  It was always my understanding that a memo has to be delivered to whoever it is addressed to.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2014)

Do you have an email account.  If so, I suggest you make your request in writing via email and then save the email.  If your unit becomes the only reason you miss the deadline, then the PSO should be able to take that into account and get permission from their TechNet for your file to move forward.

Keep all the email correspondence; you might need to be able to verify later on you`ve been trying to get this BS sorted out.


----------



## bignic (8 Dec 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Do you have an email account.  If so, I suggest you make your request in writing via email and then save the email.  If your unit becomes the only reason you miss the deadline, then the PSO should be able to take that into account and get permission from their TechNet for your file to move forward.
> 
> Keep all the email correspondence; you might need to be able to verify later on you`ve been trying to get this BS sorted out.



I will do that for sure.  I am assuming you mean when I email the PSO?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Dec 2014)

Your WO, the BPSO, anyone.  Keep whatever correspondence you can...I made a copy of my signed/dated memo before I handed it...in case it 'mysteriously disappeared'...


----------



## TCM621 (8 Dec 2014)

A similar thing happened to me, two years in a row.  The second time I wrote a memo addressed to the CO asking for an explanation and informed my immediate supervisor that the memo was due diligence prior to a grievance.  Basically, I gave the CoC a chance to fix it. The chief was so angry he couldn't speak when he found out what happened.  My paperwork was at the BPSO office by the end of the day. I didn't even have the luxury or being told it was being stalled. I had missed the deadline when I found out it hadn't left. 

Let the CoC handle it but be prepared (with documentation) to take it higher if need be.


----------



## trooper142 (9 Dec 2014)

I had this very same situation happen to me, and it was resolved finally, but not without some pushing!

From my experience, the advice you have received here is the best way forward, you dont want to burn bridges with your CoC just to get your application through. I woudl suggest asking to speak to your SM(ask your WO, so he/she doesn't feel like you went behind his/her back) , because it can happen that he/she isn't aware of whats going on, but at the same time call the BPSO, and explain that you feel stuck and ask if there is any push they can give on their end to perhaps encourage your CoC to push your admin ahead. 

What I learned from my frustration is it is unfortunate that it is often left to the member to battle his/her CoC by themselves, because the member may not be armed with the proper knowledge and end up getting themselves in hot water, when the issue could have just been a misunderstanding or miscommunication.

PM incoming for further details!


----------



## DAA (9 Dec 2014)

I've seen stuff like this many times before.  Application submitted and the CoC shuts it down before it even leaves the unit lines.  At the end of the day, it's not their call to make, unless there are Admin issues on going.  So they either staff the paperwork with the "Recommended/Not Recommended" or "Supported/Not Supported" comments and let the process run it's course.

Heck, I've seen stuff leave with VERY non-flattering recommendations and the individuals still get picked up/offers.

If you want it, apply for it and follow up as best you can.  If you have done your part in a more than timely fashion and somewhere along the way heals are dragging, it's grievance time.


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Dec 2014)

I'm going to add a caveat:

If you're going to jump over the chain of command, recognize that the landing may not be as soft as you expect.


----------



## sidemount (9 Dec 2014)

Lets not forget the "pick your battles"

I've learned this one very early on in my leadership roles. That being said this is something I would and have gone to bat on the members behalf for. But in saying that I have also learned the diplomatic way of doing it so, like ModlrMike has pointed out, I don't crash and burn.

I'd have a chat with your Pl Cmdr or Coy admin officer (in my experience both very approachable junior officers) , see if he knows....he is the one who would be moving it from coy level to Battalion/Regimental level. He usually has a direct line to the unit Adj and can "usually" sort things out. If that is a no go, get your CSM involved. They have a direct line to the RSM who always has the CO's ear and has this uncanny ability to get shit sorted out very quickly. 

It will take some pushing and people may get a bit puffy chested about it, but it is still your career that they are messing around with, and they do have a responsibility to complete the paperwork in a timely fashion. 
I'll take a "chewing out" before I'll roll over and take it when people are not doing their jobs....but that's just me, YMMV


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Dec 2014)

On the flip side of the coin to 'the mbr should use the CofC', there is the other side to this;  the CofC should do their duty IAW CF policy and fwd correspondence in a timely manner.  Having a Pl Comd state they are stopping your memo to the Adjt isn't the way to do business.  Holding up a mbr's OT paperwork is not on either.  The unit CO gets to put his/her 2 cents in and that's about it.  The rest is out of their hands, as it should be.  The selection board is tasked to make these decisions, not Pl Comd, Adjts and COs.  Like it or not, that's the way of it.

Leads me to 2 questions.  (1) How long has "the unit" been sitting on the mbr's application documents and (2) what is the holdup right now from the ADJT preventing the PSO from receiving the completed application?

Stopping OT applications is a common abuse of authority in the CAF;  a mbr should not have to scratch and claw to get their application forward.  CofC's that abuse their authority should be held to account for breaking step with the QR & Os.


----------



## Tibbson (9 Dec 2014)

I find one of three things normally happens with such paperwork:

1)  Either the CoC supports it and sends it higher you would hope they would;
2)  They don't support it, minute the memo as such and either send it back to you or submit it higher unsupported; or...more often then should be
3)  They conveniently "lose" because they don't support it and they are too reluctant to say so for fear they will have to substantiate their reasons.  

#3 is obviously the chicken sh*t way to go but it happens more often then naught so it's best to keep tabs on what you submit and be prepared to advocate for yourself.


----------



## sidemount (9 Dec 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> On the flip side of the coin to 'the mbr should use the CofC', there is the other side to this;  the CofC should do their duty IAW CF policy and fwd correspondence in a timely manner.  Having a Pl Comd state they are stopping your memo to the Adjt isn't the way to do business.  Holding up a mbr's OT paperwork is not on either.  The unit CO gets to put his/her 2 cents in and that's about it.  The rest is out of their hands, as it should be.  The selection board is tasked to make these decisions, not Pl Comd, Adjts and COs.  Like it or not, that's the way of it.
> 
> Leads me to 2 questions.  (1) How long has "the unit" been sitting on the mbr's application documents and (2) what is the holdup right now from the ADJT preventing the PSO from receiving the completed application?
> 
> Stopping OT applications is a common abuse of authority in the CAF;  a mbr should not have to scratch and claw to get their application forward.  CofC's that abuse their authority should be held to account for breaking step with the QR & Os.



You are absolutely right but there is seldom any recourse for a CoC that has lost paperwork or has failed to do their due diligence. Not to mention that going after the CoC for not doing their job seldom solves the problem for the member....missed deadlines means another year of waiting to resubmit OT paperwork.
Its a pretty shitty system. Another sad part of this is we have the tools to do this completely electronic (sharepoint would work) so that the member and whoever needs/has seen it, knows where it is in the process.


----------



## Occam (9 Dec 2014)

I have a better idea.

Provide a means for the member to apply for a VOT the same way you apply online for a credit card.  Hit "submit".  Then the PSO gets the application, and the PSO tells the CoC that they have until such and such a date to provide the requisite paperwork.

Remove the CoC from the application process entirely.  More often than not, they stonewall the application.


----------



## TCM621 (9 Dec 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I find one of three things normally happens with such paperwork:
> 
> 1)  Either the CoC supports it and sends it higher you would hope they would;
> 2)  They don't support it, minute the memo as such and either send it back to you or submit it higher unsupported; or...more often then should be
> ...


You forgot endless corrections. And changes to the memo format every time I submit a memo.  There isn't even a Cf writing guide anymore as the final authority.


----------



## Tibbson (9 Dec 2014)

There are already a couple of those automated applications sites available.  I know it's worked well for certain MP specialties.  The member submits his/her request directly to the office involved while the CoC minutes it.  Even without the minute from the CoC the office involved knows its been submitted and chases down the necessary comments before the request is considered.  No reason why it couldn't work for other applications as well as you note.


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> There isn't even a Cf writing guide anymore as the final authority.



Yes, there is.


----------



## TCM621 (10 Dec 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, there is.


I can't find it.  We are supposed to follow standard Canadian style guides.


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2014)

Web based copy, but it's consistent with what you could get from CFSAL:

Military Writing Guide

The source document is A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 Staff and Writing Procedures which I think is only available on the DIN.


----------



## Occam (10 Dec 2014)

A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 is rescinded.  Searching for it on the e-Pubs depot directs you to the style guide or something like that; I haven't tried the link lately.

All the military writing guides out there based on A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 are locally-adopted.


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 is rescinded.  Searching for it on the e-Pubs depot directs you to the style guide or something like that; I haven't tried the link lately.
> 
> All the military writing guides out there based on A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 are locally-adopted.



News to me, however the guide I provided is what is taught to RMS and LogOs.


----------



## Pusser (10 Dec 2014)

This might be killing ants with a sledgehammer, but this is a good QR&O to know:

19.12 - COMMUNICATION WITH THE COMMANDING OFFICER

An officer or non-commissioned member may, upon application, see the member's commanding officer on any personal matter.

It is worth noting that there is nothing in this regulation that states a member has to explain to anyone why he/she wants to see the CO (other than the CO obviously).  If nothing happens soon, the OP may wish to book an appointment with the CO to ask how his application is progressing.


----------



## Occam (10 Dec 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> News to me, however the guide I provided is what is taught to RMS and LogOs.



That still makes it a locally-adopted version.  There is no nationally recognized standard for military writing anymore since the guide was rescinded.


----------



## OldSolduer (10 Dec 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> This might be killing ants with a sledgehammer, but this is a good QR&O to know:
> 
> 19.12 - COMMUNICATION WITH THE COMMANDING OFFICER
> 
> ...



Good point but a breif explanation as to the why of the matter may make the process simpler and easier.


----------



## Pusser (10 Dec 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Good point but a breif explanation as to the why of the matter may make the process simpler and easier.



Agreed, but if he ends up explaining why he wants to see the CO, the folks that are stalling his application may try to stall his request for an appointment with the CO as well.  Of course this doesn't help if these same folks adopt an approach of, "if you don't tell me why, you can't see him."  Mind you, COs have a knack for finding things out eventually and I wouldn't want to be the junior officer having to explain to the CO why I had blocked something I had no authority to block.  I would hope that would be a very unpleasant conversation (without coffee).


----------



## Shamrock (10 Dec 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> This might be killing ants with a sledgehammer, but this is a good QR&O to know:
> 
> 19.12 - COMMUNICATION WITH THE COMMANDING OFFICER
> 
> ...



There's nothing in that regulation stating the CO can't blow his top if it's a frivolous or vexatious visit, either.


----------



## MARS (10 Dec 2014)

Perhaps it is a navy thing, but the events that led to The Mainguy Report is something that was drilled into me HARD as a junior officer.  Days of instruction were rghtly allocated to that event. I would never...ever...dream of refusing or in any way slowing down such a request.  It could be written in crayon and it will still get accepted. Nor would any of the officers or Petty Officers under my Command.  Not if they wanted to live thru the rest of the day.  But as well, skipping the Chain on the way up doesn't mean my XO/Coxn won't be fully briefed after the fact.

A (near?) mutiny will do that to a Service, I guess.  We as a Navy don't ever want to go through that again.


----------



## DAA (10 Dec 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 is rescinded.  Searching for it on the e-Pubs depot directs you to the style guide or something like that; I haven't tried the link lately.
> 
> All the military writing guides out there based on A-AD-121-CO/FP-000 are locally-adopted.



Staff writing guidelines are now pretty much based on "Terminium Plus"  ---->  http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/

See the lefthand side tab titled "Writing Tools".  Other than that, it's pretty much a free for all these days.....


----------



## ModlrMike (10 Dec 2014)

MARS said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is a navy thing, but the events that led to The Mainguy Report is something that was drilled into me HARD as a junior officer.  Days of instruction were rightly allocated to that event. I would never...ever...dream of refusing or in any way slowing down such a request.  It could be written in crayon and it will still get accepted. Nor would any of the officers or Petty Officers under my Command.  Not if they wanted to live thru the rest of the day.  But as well, skipping the Chain on the way up doesn't mean my XO/Coxn won't be fully briefed after the fact.
> 
> A (near?) mutiny will do that to a Service, I guess.  We as a Navy don't ever want to go through that again.



Absolutely. That being said, letting the chain know the nature of the request allows them to initiate staff work to solve the problem. The member still gets to see the CO, but problem + solution = better outcome.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Dec 2014)

Fully agree with MARS here. The Mainguy report was indeed drilled hard into naval officers minds. Heck, my first training Chief was CPO1 Shaw, who as LS (airplane Handler) Shaw was the ringleader of the Magnificent's mutiny. A more dedicated and respectful seaman and upholder of the chain of command you could not find.

But I don't know that the Navy divisional model can be applied to the Army. In the Navy, personal requests are usually originated on a Personal Request Form the seaman obtains from the Ship's Office, meaning the Coxn (a member of the Command team -CO/XO/Coxn) is informed daily of who asked for a request Form. If the Request Form doesn't find its way back to the Ship's office after a few days, you can be sure that the Coxn will seek the Divisional PO to find out what is going on.

Similarly, As Captain, it was always part of my daily meeting with the XO to be briefed on outstanding Request Forms (i.e. issued forms not yet returned) and on actual disposition of Request Forms that did not make their way up to me. 

While the Mainguy report underlined the importance of the divisional system and the maintenance of properly working Welfare Committees onboard ships, the concept that Captains are responsible and should know everything that is going on below decks goes back to the Nelsonian era and few better tools than monitoring Personal Request Forms exist for a ship Captain.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Dec 2014)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> There's nothing in that regulation stating the CO can't blow his top if it's a frivolous or vexatious visit, either.



Good point;  the OP just knows the application hasn't gone forward and believes it is with the Adjt.  The deadline is approaching but not passed and might be "#5 on the list".  

However, if the delay is intentional and will see the deadline pass...well, I'd like to think some people will have some explaining to do.  However, given my experience I'll say that the CofC isn't held accountable for f**kin' with Jnr NCO's and Pte's OT applications.  And IMO they should be.


----------



## Shamrock (10 Dec 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Good point;  the OP just knows the application hasn't gone forward and believes it is with the Adjt.  The deadline is approaching but not passed and might be "#5 on the list".
> 
> However, if the delay is intentional and will see the deadline pass...well, I'd like to think some people will have some explaining to do.  However, given my experience I'll say that the CofC isn't held accountable for f**kin' with Jnr NCO's and Pte's OT applications.  And IMO they should be.



Although BPSO advise against this, it could be the unit is waiting to consolidate its return.  An OT application requires the pers file be transmitted; the delay could also be the OR not having the time to properly vet the UPR prior to transmission.  It isn't always fuckery.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Dec 2014)

Agreed.   Hopefully the OP was able to get some answers and didn't jump on a self-destruct shit grenade.   ;D


----------

