# Looking for Helicopter mechanics, engineers, pilots...



## RHFC_piper (23 Sep 2009)

This is going to sound very very odd, but I figured I'd try every avenue in my search for information.

I need some information and/or direction on the general operation of helicopters;

Why?
As I've gone on about in various other threads; I am in College for mechanical engineering (technologist). For the 3rd year project, a group of us have decided to design (and possibly build) an ultralight helicopter... since this seems like a massive endeavor, we have begun the preliminary research now (2nd year).  And, because the school has very limited resources regarding aeronautics, aerodynamics and anything relating to helicopters, we require some direction... and possibly some first hand knowledge of general helicopter operation as we progress in this project.

What, exactly, we're looking for;
We definitely don't expect anyone else to do our research, we're just looking for a practical resource; someone with hands on knowledge and experience.  
I plan to contact 400 squadron in CFB Borden, and possibly the EME school there, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the right way to go... also, I don't really have any connections.
As well, we're also looking for some suggestions for resources (books, articles, etc.) to get us going in the right direction.

Also, as a general disclaimer (since this issue has come up before); we're not designing this for any military application (that we can think of anyway), so we don't really require any information which may compromise OpSec or any other security policies... We're just looking for people with first hand knowledge working with/on/in helicopters in general.  Experience with ultralight helicopters would be a great asset, but right now our primary concern is learning the basics of helicopter operation theory.


Any information, suggestions (besides "get bent") or advice (besides "don't do it") would be greatly appreciated.  Feel free to contact me via PM or respond here.


Cheers,

iper:


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## Corey Darling (23 Sep 2009)

Hi,

Sounds like an interesting project.

If your main concern at the moment is studying the basics of helicopter operation, then maybe it's a worthwhile investment to buy or borrow a remote control helicopter?  This would allow you to study how the swash plate and rotor head work (in general), and how different shapes and pitch settings of the rotor blades affect the flight characteristics or lifting capabilities.

Maybe a decent, low risk and relatively low cost place to start?


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## RHFC_piper (23 Sep 2009)

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> If your main concern at the moment is studying the basics of helicopter operation, then maybe it's a worthwhile investment to buy or borrow a remote control helicopter?  This would allow you to study how the swash plate and rotor head work (in general), and how different shapes and pitch settings of the rotor blades affect the flight characteristics or lifting capabilities.
> 
> Maybe a decent, low risk and relatively low cost place to start?




I had considered that, but I'm faced with the same dilemma; I really don't know where to start with radio controlled helicopter either... any suggestions?


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## Corey Darling (23 Sep 2009)

If you're serious about trying the R/C route, then maybe hunt down a local r/c club and airfield where you can ask questions about the hobby, the costs, and where to purchase a used machine.


also, www.runryder.com is the major R/C helicopter forum. You should be able to find the answers to any of your questions there.  There are also lots of links on the first page for helicopter retailers, brands and sizes of helicopter you might be interested in.

http://www.centuryheli.com/   makes high quality machines, from low cost entry level, to the more expensive competitive machines (larger as well).  They also make electric helicopters if you are interested in that route.

Cheers 

Corey


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2009)

A few thoughts:

(1) CFSEME will have no help for helicopters - they train to fix ground vehicles and weapons systems.  There is however CFSATE in Borden as well, where you'll find the techs who do work on helicopters.

(2) For very cheap R/C helicopters, you can look at www.dealextreme.com - they have cheap (under $20) helicopters you can futz about with some.

(3) Helicopters are, to my knowledge, temperamental beasts at the best of times; companies that offer kits claim to have spent 10 years or more in development.  Look at places like:

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/light.html

http://www.innovator.mosquito.net.nz/mbbs2/index.asp


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## Loachman (23 Sep 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is however CFSATE in Borden as well, where you'll find the techs who do work on helicopters.



Not quite. CFSATE trains techs. 400 Squadron employs techs.

RHFC Piper: Note that there's a big difference between maintaining and servicing machines and designing them. I'll see if a couple of guys are willing to help you out when I'm back in next week. There was a kitbuilt single-seater at Buttonville a few years ago. I don't know if it's still there, or who owns it. A call to Canadian Helicopters there should get you that info, though, and possibly some other advice as well.

Also - serious, serious, serious advice here - whatever you build, do NOT volunteer to be the test pilot.


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2009)

Loachman:  Mea culpa for the lack of clarity - I was replying to the "EME school" comment.  But one would hope that CFSATE instructors would be somewhat competent in their fields as they impart knowledge and skills to the young techs in training.


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## Loachman (23 Sep 2009)

Nothing against CFSATE instructors, but not all of them will have rotary-wing experience.

There are more AERE Officers there, though, and they would be the ones to talk to. I'll talk to ours first, and go from there.


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## dapaterson (23 Sep 2009)

Philosophical question:  If the majority fo an occupation all work in one building in Ottawa, and can spend their career posted from one cubicle to another in that same building, why aren't they civil servants instead of military?

And on a related note, why do we need many more aeronautical engineers than we have aircraft, particularly when we generally buy off someone else's production lines?


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## RHFC_piper (23 Sep 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> (1) CFSEME will have no help for helicopters - they train to fix ground vehicles and weapons systems.  There is however CFSATE in Borden as well, where you'll find the techs who do work on helicopters.



I knew the people I was looking for were in Borden, I just wasn't sure of the details... thanks for the info.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> (2) For very cheap R/C helicopters, you can look at www.dealextreme.com - they have cheap (under $20) helicopters you can futz about with some.



Good stuff... thanks for the link... This is exactly what I was looking for.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> (3) Helicopters are, to my knowledge, temperamental beasts at the best of times; companies that offer kits claim to have spent 10 years or more in development.  Look at places like:
> 
> http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/light.html
> 
> http://www.innovator.mosquito.net.nz/mbbs2/index.asp



It was the Mosquito helicopter line that gave us the idea, actually.

As for engineering time; from my experience in both in class and in industry, I have found that the majority of engineering time spent is not so much in the initial design, but more so in the refinement of the design.  This design refinement includes perfecting the initial working design, developing and improving the production process, and finding ways to reduce costs.  As well, these companies are always developing improvements on designs based on advancing technologies and materials.

The point is; we're not redesigning the wheel and we're not designing a marketable product (yet).  We are really just looking for a project which will allow us to flex the skills and knowledge we've gathered from this program... which, in name, is design and analysis. 

This is exactly why I said it seems like a daunting task... but there are 5 of us working on it with various backgrounds; including machining, welding, design, fabrication and we even have a pilot with rotary-wing hours (very few hours).  We're just looking for as many resources as possible.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> RHFC Piper: Note that there's a big difference between maintaining and servicing machines and designing them. I'll see if a couple of guys are willing to help you out when I'm back in next week. There was a kitbuilt single-seater at Buttonville a few years ago. I don't know if it's still there, or who owns it. A call to Canadian Helicopters there should get you that info, though, and possibly some other advice as well.



I relate this to the old adage; "time in RECCE is never wasted".  We're just looking for resources and information, whether that be from the people who fly them to the people who fix them...  Engineers who ignore their end-users are no better than leadership who ignore their troops. Part of the design process is looking for faults in existing designs and improving them; who better to find the faults in a Helicopter than those who fly and fix them?



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Also - serious, serious, serious advice here - whatever you build, do NOT volunteer to be the test pilot.



It's all good; as previously stated, we have a pilot. 

With that said, there are 2 things to keep in mind;

1) this isn't some back-yard, half-assed, home-built death trap we're trying to build; we're graded on following the design process.  Every element has to be designed properly with all calculations marked for accuracy.  In reality, there is no need for us to actually build a prototype (especially since we will have a working model in CAD for structural testing), but we're really hoping that we have the time to get one off the ground, so to speak.

2) this project has nothing to do with the military, so I'm confident that _I_ won't be injured... That only seems to happen when I'm in uniform, operating military equipment, or deployed... 
With this said, we have decided to factor in my bad luck; the aircraft will be built with a safety factor of no less than 12.   ;D


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## Loachman (23 Sep 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And on a related note, why do we need many more aeronautical



Aero_*space*_ - because, someday, we might...



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> engineers than we have aircraft,



Somebody has to determine that the flashlights that we'd all been using without incident for decades are really unsafe, and then go out and purchase new ones (one small Pelican with a white lense and one large Pelican with a blue lense), and then have serial numbers engraved into the plastic, and then ban all other makes and models...


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## p_imbeault (7 Oct 2009)

If your looking for some "light" reading material I'm finding "Principles of Helicopter Flight" by W.J. Wagtendonk to be a pretty good resources for theory of flight part. They do a pretty good job of explaining things without the indepth, head scratching details that I've found with some similar books. 
Good luck with your project sounds like its gonna be a toughie. 

Edit: You might be able to find some resources at Flight Training School


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## Journeyman (7 Oct 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And on a related note, why do we need many more aeronautical engineers than we have aircraft, particularly when we generally buy off someone else's production lines?


Harley-Davidson's been building bikes since 1903. 
Yet I still had to zap-strap a coffee-cup holder onto the handle bar


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## Dissident (7 Oct 2009)

I know its not directly related, but if you are into helicopters you should read Chickenhawk by Mason.


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## RHFC_piper (7 Oct 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Harley-Davidson's been building bikes since 1903.
> Yet I still had to zap-strap a coffee-cup holder onto the handle bar



Perhaps it's just my inner-designer thinking, but;

Cup Holder + Motorcycle = Bad Data

Perhaps my math is off, but it works out everyway I try it....  ;D


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## dapaterson (7 Oct 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Harley-Davidson's been building bikes since 1903.
> Yet I still had to zap-strap a coffee-cup holder onto the handle bar



That's just because you're too cheap to buy one of these:

http://www.camelbak.com/


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## Loachman (7 Oct 2009)

Dissident said:
			
		

> I know its not directly related, but if you are into helicopters you should read Chickenhawk by Mason.



There is more useful how-to-design-a-helicopter information, which is what RHFC_Piper is looking for, in Swiss Family Robinson.

The Vietnam Vet Army helicopter pilots that I used to know hated that book, and were glad that Mason went to gaol. It was a not-bad story though.


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