# C7/C8 refresher drills being done over videos.



## gryphonv (27 May 2016)

Ok first I have to say, I'm no pro when it comes to handling firearms. And I have had no experiance before the CAF. 

I've noticed a new policy on the east coast (not sure if it is forces wide) to change/replace the classroom part of refresher training with videos to cover your drills, your tear downs and etc. 

I know every Soldier should remain proficient on weapons handling and to seek out oppurtunities to address deficiencies they may have outside of relying on 'refresher' training. But sometimes this can be the best time to relearn something or gain confidence. 

Safety is always the most important factor when it comes to weapons handling. Safety in my mind arises out of confidence and confidence is reinforced with hands on training and muscle memory.

As I understand it now, this pilot project will have the expectation on members to be prepaired to be tested when they show up for refresher training instead of getting prepaired at the refresher training. 

Members should have more responsibility in taking control of their own development, but I don't really get many 'warm fuzzies' about people using videos to replace the benifit of hands on type training.

Again let me state I am no weapons expert and I'm on the bottom end of the spectrum when it comes to skill in weapons handling. I pass my shoots, I'm safe, but I'm no pro. 

I would like to see how some of more knowledgeable members in reguards to weapons handling feel towards this method of training (videos apposed to classroom setting).


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## dangerboy (27 May 2016)

I personally don't think that a video can replace formal training it could be good for a person to watch at home the night prior to do refresher training to just jog the memory if the person is rusty and boost their confidence.

However prior to shooting the shooter must be tested on their weapons handling drills. Training Safety is very clear on this it states that the OIC is responsible for "ensuring weapon handling tests have been carried out within the last 12 months and that drill refresher based on skill fade, are done when required" . In a different section it states "All personnel engaged in any live fire training activity shall complete refresher training on the pertinent weapons before firing. The duration and type of instruction will be decided by the OIC Practice in accordance with current regulations but is based upon weapons handling tests found in the appropriate weapon publication".  So prior to any range you must do the weapons handling test with someone supervising you.


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## gryphonv (27 May 2016)

As I understand it, with this pilot project, members will still be tested prior to shooting. If they fail the testing they will be RTU'd. 

So technically it will still be safe and meet those requirements. But I think the overall quality of the refresher training will suffer.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2016)

making video's available and expecting the soldiers to prep before the classroom is great and works well with this generation, however, muscle memory with a firearm is the only way your going to learn how to act and react to IA's and general weapons handling.


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## RocketRichard (27 May 2016)

Is there a link for these on the DWAN?


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## gryphonv (27 May 2016)

RocketRichard said:
			
		

> Is there a link for these on the DWAN?



Yeah I'm away from a work computer now but I should be able to link it next week.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 May 2016)

A year or so ago, they implemented a 9mm 'training course' on AFILLE (DLN).  It was a quickly removed as it was quickly determined it did SFA to effectively be a yearly refresher on the handling drills, etc.

Absolute clusterfuck.  We just pumped all the money into the SATs, etc.  USE THEM.

I've never been on a range where I didn't do TOETs before the live fire, either as a shooter or as Range staff/ARSO, 24 hrs prior to fire round downrange.


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## RocketRichard (27 May 2016)

gryphonv said:
			
		

> Yeah I'm away from a work computer now but I should be able to link it next week.


Thanks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2016)

The concept of using film/video to boost training is not new, just no one ever thought it was a replacement for hands on training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-KVu_jko3s


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## pascalywood (29 May 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> making video's available and expecting the soldiers to prep before the classroom is great and works well with this generation, *however, muscle memory with a firearm is the only way your going to learn how to act and react to IA's and general weapons handling*.



This x 100. A video can be useful to refresh your memory but nothing beats hands-on training. Train, train until you can do it with your eyes closed and then train some more.


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## gryphonv (30 May 2016)

I am having trouble finding the videos on the DWAN. They are in my Units directorys but only internal right now. I'll do some digging to see if they were put out on the DWAN.


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## The Bread Guy (30 May 2016)

I can see using it as another way to provide mental/visual refresher, but I'm with Colin, too ....


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> ... *muscle memory with a firearm is the only way your going to learn how to act and react to IA's and general weapons handling.*


... I _hope_ nobody in the system thinks this'll replace doing the drills over and over again and testing them physically before firing.


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## GAP (30 May 2016)

This has been going on for decades.....we did the first two weeks of range just sitting 20-25 feet from a barrel with little sight/target pictures and an empty rifle.....muscle memory on sighting/breathing/posture.....


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## NavyShooter (30 May 2016)

Do we let kids drive cars because they learned how to do it on Pole Position (or nowadays, Grand Theft Auto?)

Does a video of how to handle a weapon equate to having the muscle memory built to enable the user to operate it?  

For a *Knowledge* based item, a video is a suitable means for aid with learning. 

For a *SKILL* based item, hands on should be mandatory.

A weapons system that your life (or others around you) may rely upon, I do not think a video is anything more than a reminder/awareness tool. 

NS


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## TwoTonShackle (30 May 2016)

Now for the devil's advocate:


			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Do we let kids drive cars because they learned how to do it on Pole Position (or nowadays, Grand Theft Auto?)



Not an accurate comparison.  This video would be a refresher on the TOETs, all personnel would have already gone through the hands on training and been introduced to fie arms.  So a more accurate comparison would be a kid, who went through driver's ed, passed their driver's exam and test then played a video game.



			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Does a video of how to handle a weapon equate to having the muscle memory built to enable the user to operate it?



No it doesn't, but this skill should have been taught during the initial weapons handling phase.  Most units have access to firearms, (whether they are issued them or can go to lodger unit in order to practice) and the video can then reinforce the already taught TOETs and standards.  The members would still benefit from the coaches on the firing lines, they would just be safe to handle a weapon when they show up.



			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> For a *Knowledge* based item, a video is a suitable means for aid with learning.
> 
> For a *SKILL* based item, hands on should be mandatory.



So, the video enforces the knowledge of the skill, which then has to be practiced.  Having people from a unit show up to a range prepared to go down range and fire would be invaluable.  You could double the amount of people going through by having  forenoon and afternoon refresher shoots.



			
				NavyShooter said:
			
		

> A weapons system that your life (or others around you) may rely upon, I do not think a video is anything more than a reminder/awareness tool.
> 
> NS



Absolutely, is this not the intent of the video.  A reminder and a method in which TOET's can be measured by.  So individuals can show up to the range, perform the TOETs, (60 seconds per person) then go down range?  I've taught C7/9mm refreshers at the Bedford rifle range and they can be painful.  It becomes obvious that some members/units pay no attention to this or give zero #$%@s.  It would be great to turn the onus back on the units.  Sorry HMCS Blahblahblah, you have 6 members RTU'd for failing TOETs.  Work with them, (as most units have members and trades who are very proficient with small arms), and they can return at such a date or reload then on qualifying courses.


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## George Wallace (30 May 2016)

[

As you have taught C7/9mm refreshers at Bedford, I am sure you and NavyShooter are well acquainted.


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## donaldk (30 May 2016)

DWAN link:

http://dln-afiile-contentserver.mil.ca/production/cninv000000000005689/contents_contenu.htm

IE11 on my DWAN station is so fucked up that I couldn't post this last week.

P.S.  Good intent behind the videos but someone failed in the implementation (uses flash plugin, bad video quality, awful tin-can quality audio)


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## RocketRichard (30 May 2016)

donaldk said:
			
		

> DWAN link:
> 
> http://dln-afiile-contentserver.mil.ca/production/cninv000000000005689/contents_contenu.htm
> 
> ...



Thanks for this.


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## NavyShooter (30 May 2016)

TwoTonShackle said:
			
		

> Absolutely, is this not the intent of the video.  A reminder and a method in which TOET's can be measured by.  So individuals can show up to the range, perform the TOETs, (60 seconds per person) then go down range?  I've taught C7/9mm refreshers at the Bedford rifle range and they can be painful.  It becomes obvious that some members/units pay no attention to this or give zero #$%@s.  It would be great to turn the onus back on the units.  Sorry HMCS Blahblahblah, you have 6 members RTU'd for failing TOETs.  Work with them, (as most units have members and trades who are very proficient with small arms), and they can return at such a date or reload then on qualifying courses.



I'm sure we know each other in person...

Something I have noted is that the general awareness and familiarity with small arms has gotten better over the past 2-3 years, I'm sure most of that is due to the daily duty watch musters having to get hands on with the weapons as part of the turnover.  

The quality of the hands-on time is variable, but it is hands-on time.  With my duty watches, I tried to make sure that everyone handed the weapon over, from person to person, doing the individual clearing and sighting of the chamber area so that I knew that they knew.  

There are never enough hours in a day to do it all though, so a video as an aid to learning, not the sole source of learning is not a bad thing.

NS


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