# Gunny Hartman sounds off.



## Harry (4 Nov 2002)

IMHO there is no place here for gamers.  They have their own little worlds in cyberia, and there are at least 4 I have visited and have been disgusted by.  Sites by and for gamers.

If you feel the need to share, then e-mail them direct.  

I don‘t mind dealing with the cross-section that utilize this board, but I as an individual take a stand on this one.

Unless personally told to cease and desist, I will spam, blast and outright denigrate gamers and those who entertain them.

If the CF/DND has reached a point where you can live a fantasy world, go away or do a pee test. 

Lots of micro and macro issues arrive here, this isn‘t one.

Harry-OUT   :mg:


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## Pikache (4 Nov 2002)

Well, we do have Off Topic forum


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## leetch02 (4 Nov 2002)

This has nothing to do about a game. First off its not a game at all, its a VSB1 that the US marine corp will use. I just wanted to provide former Canadian soldiers and new ones a fun time but needed information about the real thing. Thats why I came here. Forget about the game, I want to know what the structure of the Canadian Army is, im sure one of you know since all of you are in some squad of some sort. But isn‘t this a place where we can share information?


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## Michael Dorosh (4 Nov 2002)

Harry, I think Mike was quite clear - this is his board after all.  If you don‘t want to discuss games, then don‘t read the threads related to them.  It‘s not like there is a lot of other discussion going on here, and frankly, I‘d be interested in the answers to some of the questions also.


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## Harry (4 Nov 2002)

Not a game, sounds like a game, needs info like its a game, bit of fun.

Its a game.

The Role Playing community has enough forums happening already, all of them absolutely rediculous.

You clowns want this to become a gamer filled site, then fill your boots.

With a few exceptions it is hard enough to get responses on big issues, but you guys can mire away at insignificant points.  Which leads me to think there is something missing.

If you want to entertain the entertainers, than I guess it is an example of where you are in your lives, maturity and service careers, lack thereof in some cases.

At least those who come in here with nothing but enthusiasm I can tolerate.  But gamers, uh uh.


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## Mike Bobbitt (4 Nov 2002)

I‘m going to be devil‘s advocate here, and ask  *why* you can‘t stand gamers...   

You mention the fantasy element, which is where you use your strongest language. If it‘s the fictitious nature of the hobby that has you hopping, how do you feel about Tom Clancy‘s books - the real ones, not the paid knock-offs? (Also fiction, also "militaristic," but fairly popular...)

You‘re strongly opinionated on the subject, and there‘s certainly nothing wrong with that. I‘m just curious as to the specifics.

I‘d have no issue with the gaming topics being moved into the "Off Topic" forum, which allows them to continue, though out of the mainstream. On a certain level, I consider this the same as if someone came on and said "I‘m an amateur orienteer, looking for nav help."

Note: You probably all notice that I keep a low profile here and almost never express an opinion. (In this case, I have yet to express an opinion on gaming, though I have expressed an opinion on it‘s relevance...) My point is I‘m not trying to get into a pissing match - consider this as a post from a board user as opposed to the board owner.)

The *last* thing I want is for board members (especially longstanding board members) to turn away in disgust...


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## Zoomie (4 Nov 2002)

Harry, Harry, Harry, quite the sore spot you have there.  I don‘t think that having a hobby that involves your home computer can really gauge your level of maturity and where you are in your service career.  What, may I ask, is your hobby?  Do you even have one.  I know senior Captains who dabble in model railroading, would you call that imature and child-like.  So what if someone plays computer games as their hobby.  Quite frankly, I am a gamer myself.  Are you saying that I lack maturity and therefore am not a good service member/ leader in the CF?  Hmmmm?  Your logic is baffling.  What do you do to relieve stress and get away from the job, is gardening your bag?  If so, sobeit, no big deal, I won‘t hold that against you.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2002)

Reminds me of the salem witch trials.

uhhh, zoomies a witch, er, gamer, burn him!    

I like games but i dont play enough to be considered a gamer probably. Their just fun.
Maybe harry is refering to the hardcore gamers who thin net games are the end all of entertainment and proceed to push their views onto others? Even them he still seems rather, ahh, livid about them, no?

I know i get really pissed when i have someone who plays games a lot (gamer) proceed to tell me military tactics, weapon stats and whatever else solely through their experence in playing games. But thats just a pet peeve


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## Harry (5 Nov 2002)

I am out of my AO for 24 hours, when I get back I will develop this a bit more.  

Needless too say Ghost is close.  

Zoomie there is a fine line between hobby and obsession; most of the gamers out there are not hobbyist.  HINT-HINT.

I have worked with different individuals who had various involvements in the roll playing/sim world.  D&D aside (shudder), absolutely ludicrous especially when a great amount of time was consumed discussing the GAME.  

Wonder how someone chucked the SA-7 out a couple of days ago.  Well Bucky, if you where worth your salt, you would know that the SA-7 Grail has all but disappeared on the world stage and has been replaced by two subsequent versions, with a third being released as we banter.  The Chinese still produce a version that is similar, but indications are they have developed a new Chicom VLAD weapon.  At least he was able to indicate he learned all that and more from being a Gamer.

Most of us with a bit of Ops time have done the various sim systems, but we donâ€™t live it, and we also know well enough that you have to get out on the ground and do it to see if it will actually work.  Reality is a wonderful Mistress isnâ€™t sheâ€¦  There are a couple of us in here with the Cbt Int designation, a few Int types and yes simâ€™s are part of the job.  But so is doing it.

I forget who posted the link to another CF (Gamer) related link, but when I get back, I will dig it out and you can decide for yourself if this is what you want here?  Canâ€™t wait for the first whiz bang to ask about the LAV Wolverineâ€¦

And to the Boss(i), it comes down to this, your board, your rules.  But it is hard enough to develop meaningful real world issues here without going off into fantasia,

But if you folks want to start entertaining the Fantasians, go for it.  Lots of good here, but there is also a degree of meaningless fecal content that gets over extrapolated.

People are like water, they will follow the path of least resistance.

Get Some


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## Mike Bobbitt (5 Nov 2002)

Point well taken, Harry, I don‘t think any of us want this forum to degenerate. There are lots of good soldiers and good thinkers here, and I believe the content is [mostly] interesting. I believe that part of the value of this forum is educating the next generation of soldiers and military thinkers. They may be gamers now, but they‘re going to be out there in the real world some day.

Your approach on the "gaming" issue may be a bit black and white, but I think we‘re all on the same page. There are some gray areas (some might consider posting the rants of a fictitious character from a movie created by Stanley Kubric to be "fantasy."   ), but I think leetch‘s single post hasn‘t yet crossed the line into fantasy land.

My opinion, and certainly not the last word on the topic.   

Cheers


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## Harry (5 Nov 2002)

Good call Bossi, 

You got it, why else did I go Hartman, to get my point out.  One fantasian countered with a ficticious.

I can‘t stand Hartman BTW.  Had a couple instructors in battle school like that, morons.  Might be funny if you haven‘t lived it, might make you harder to survive it, but if you are a real leader, you learn to be operate above it.

Toodley do.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2002)

Hartman, i love that man like a cold father!
What i love even more is taking a bus ride anywhere with the military and always having someone pull out a copy of full metal jacket. 
Sound doesnt work on the bus?
Don‘t worry, everyone knows all the words and have no reservations about proving for the 80th time they know all the words, out loud.

Reference the SA-7. Someone said EVERYONE from artillery to (something else) in the military should know IFV reckognition. I would say, everyone in the CF should be able to do a 13Km march no sweat and pass the PWT3. Ive seen a few individuals drop out after less then 200 meters.  Theres a lot of vehicles and such that ideally speaking soldiers should know but you gotta be realistic and understand someones not going to be able to retain all that information. Theres usually those subject matter expert guys floating around who keep people thinking about it but they just turn around and forget it. I dont really think theres a need to remember all that stuff, especially considering canada‘s military and the role we usually play in conflicts.

What i can‘t stand is gamers quizzing me on crap from games. games where your commando takes on small countries carrying 8 different weapons on their back heh.  
Imagine if all the effort from these people were put into actually supporting the cf


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## Sharpey (5 Nov 2002)

Very true, AFV recognician in the real world is more difficult than on a computer screen. The enemy tends not to be red on a radar screen! And speaking from experience, lugging a C6 and a couple boxes of ammo is a chore in itself, let alone a couple of rocket launchers, grenades, rifles, pistol and a knife as backup. Some games are good training aids to a point, but can easily be blown out of reality. But it‘s fun sometimes to hit the bottle and play stupid computer games for a few hours with the army types that know what we are doing is completly out of whack. Would be nice to have three lives on the battle field eh?


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## Pikache (5 Nov 2002)

Just on a side note, there are video games out there that does simulate somewhat combat, like America‘s Army and to a lesser degree, Rainbow Six series.


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## Spr.Earl (5 Nov 2002)

With in the Force‘s we do have trade specific game‘s.i.e. for the engineer‘s "Holdfast"
which train‘s Ociffer‘s and Snr N.C.O.‘s time appreciation and use of Eng. resource‘s in the offence and defence and the game is played in real time by two team‘s with com‘s and map‘s.Using bridgeing,obstical‘s,etc. 

I also believe the armoured also have a game to teach tactic‘s and correct us of terrain.


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## Sharpey (5 Nov 2002)

Yeah...Steal Beasts. Pretty much the same as the Simnet down in Fort Knowx but without the M1 / M2 box around you.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Nov 2002)

I dont know, as a troop, how i feel about simulations like that.  I know theres a score of bennifits and i wont discount those in the least, but it gives me a weird feeling that someone practices life or death decisions on a computer where if they mess up they hit restart. They don‘t get a feel for the reprecussions of their decisions maybe?

Side story, a good friend of mine is a scout sniper int he US and he was mentioning to me all the problems they were having with their commanders during war games using their infantry loaded bradlys almost like tanks and the carriers would always get blasted before the troops could dismount.


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## Mike Bobbitt (6 Nov 2002)

Ghost, I think you‘ve made the case for simulations... Wouldn‘t you rather have your commander find out how to properly employ his AFV‘s in a simulation than on the battlefield?


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## Jarnhamar (6 Nov 2002)

heh
touche

I was going for the idea that on the screen the commanders wouldnt get a real feel for what their mistakes may cause. But i do see your point.
Guess it depends on the person.

I know if im in the field and i send one of the teams in my section to take out a trench or explore dead ground (whatever) and they "die" i feel like a big *** . If im playing computer games i‘ll send battalions of troops to their deaths just to get a laugh, its a game after all.
And the fats system (i thinkt hats what its called) i get bored after a little while and (unprofessionally i might add) just goof around.

"Why did you shoot at soldiers without identifying them first!"
"relax i‘ve played this senario 4 times already"

If your training someone for marskmanship shooting, you get far better results if you make the person load each round into the C7 chamber manually so once they shoot they can correct their mistakes and not just have them figure "damn i missed thats okay i have 29 other rounds left"
I figure that way of thinking is relivant to the simulator thing. (and this is me trying to dig myself out of my hole)


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## Spr.Earl (9 Nov 2002)

Ghost as for Engineer‘s Holdfast is A1 as you realy learn time appretiation, as there is nothing worse than saying the bridge will be open at x hrs. and your just getting into your hide  :crybaby:  

 It‘s all about timeing,terrain,weather,resource‘s, fatigue and other factor‘s from previous task‘s and the present task at hand.

 As Mike said I would rather have my Niner play and learn on a game board or computer and lose than with me for real.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Nov 2002)

I ment i would rather them train for real then on a computer thats all.


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## Fusaki (10 Nov 2002)

hello everyone!! this is my first post, but i‘ve been following threads on this forum for quite awhile.

in defence of gamers:

i play Tom Clancy‘s Ghost Recon quite a bit. i know for a fact that its just a small minority that think they are better soldiers because they got 80 cyber-kills. half of the guys i game with are former soldiers (one of the most respected Ghost Recon modders is a former Captain in the CF) and most of the others are 13-19 yr olds who have ambitions to join the military (like myself). most harcore gamers have alot of respect for the people who "do it for real". probably more respect then you guys realize.

and i dont think this will become a gamer filled site. SOCNET is a much more popular forum and it doesnt deal with gamers on a regular basis.

Harry, please go easy on us. the people you talk about are not the average gamer. most of us are just are just killing time untill we do it for real.



> I believe that part of the value of this forum is educating the next generation of soldiers and military thinkers. They may be gamers now, but they‘re going to be out there in the real world some day.


i like that


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## Jarnhamar (12 Nov 2002)

"most of us are just are just killing time untill we do it for real."

You might not find the same type of missions in the CF as you will in Ghost Recon. Part of your CF real world missions will be looking for who took the drip pan for your vehicle or procuring another one so the enviromental police dont get ya.
I supose if they DO come for you, you can run away and practive E&E ghost recon style   

Oh, and attending harassment prevention classes.


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## Fusaki (12 Nov 2002)

i‘m sure thats true, but its not really what i was trying to say.

i‘m just making the point that kids who play these kinds of games have enough interest in the military to want to be a part of it in some form or another. i think its pretty obvious that very few people actually get to do the black-ops type stuff.

the "drip pan scavenger hunt" game just isnt very interesting, even if it is the reality of the situation.


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## Korus (12 Nov 2002)

> Part of your CF real world missions will be looking for who took the drip pan for your vehicle or procuring another one so the enviromental police dont get ya.


ROTFLMAO!


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2002)

Fusaki i know i was just toying with your words a bit. I think one of the deciding factors in how ‘good‘ or even maybe successful a soldier is, is their ability to take verbal ribbing from their peers, be able to shrug off personal jokes regarding themselves and just smile when you screw up and fix it and not brood.
See mate, your training already started!

I know the drip-pan-hunt may seem boring to you but let me tell you, anyone can kick in a door scream kill kill kill until your throat is sand paper but those enviromental guys are like world war 2 storm troopers.
"Ver iz yo drip pan, herr corporal"

You shoot your rifle by accident and its about 100 or 200$ you owe from a  charge. You get caught spilling oil and leaving it and your up $**t creek without a paddle (or life vest!).

In time you will be exposed to one of the greatest canadian manouvers developed by our leaders. The garbage sweep. The phrase "By the center, advance" will forever hold a place in your heart, as you look at your feet and pick up cigarette butts.
What happens when theres no garbage? You rookie. You pick up foilage of course, leaves and sticks.
Wether your getting picked on by your mates, getting yelled at for no drip pan or your 23 and being paid to pick up cigarette buts, do it with a grin.
Lesson two, don‘t calla  warrent officer a sir, drives em mad for some reason.


  :blotto:


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## Fusaki (14 Nov 2002)

check and check
~takes notes, grins~


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