# Landmines in Ont.



## herseyjh (5 Aug 2007)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/08/05/4394957-sun.html

Surprised to read about this.  From the picture I am trying to work out what type of mine it is.


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## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2007)

Wow, that's scary!


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## Retired AF Guy (5 Aug 2007)

According to the article the mines were 7 cm thick and 25 cm across. That would make it an anti-tank mine.


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## Mike Baker (5 Aug 2007)

I saw that on CTV last night, pretty scary. I wonder how they got there.


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## PMed (5 Aug 2007)

herseyjh said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/08/05/4394957-sun.html
> 
> Surprised to read about this.  From the picture I am trying to work out what type of mine it is.



I'm no expert but from the picture it looks like maybe an M6A2 or M15?  My first impression was that it looked like a training mine, you know, no real defining features.  Any thoughts?


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## Kat Stevens (5 Aug 2007)

Looks more like an old British Mk 7 A/Tk mine to my failing eyes and fading memory.


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2007)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Looks more like an old British Mk 7 A/Tk mine to my failing eyes and fading memory.



I would agree with you there......


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## Kat Stevens (5 Aug 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would agree with you there......



About the eyes and memory, or the mine?   ;D


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## Old Sweat (5 Aug 2007)

It can't be a mine; we outlawed mines. (Hangun banners take note.)

Sarcasm meter off.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Aug 2007)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Looks more like an old British Mk 7 A/Tk mine to my failing eyes and fading memory.



A quick search with googlefu shows you are correct Kat.

Picture of an MK 7 A/T Mine


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2007)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> About the eyes and memory, or the mine?   ;D



hummm......yes


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## Retired AF Guy (5 Aug 2007)

PMed said:
			
		

> I'm no expert but from the picture it looks like maybe an M6A2 or M15?  My first impression was that it looked like a training mine, you know, no real defining features.  Any thoughts?



If I remember correctly from my basic training many moons ago, practice mines were painted blue and had holes through them.


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## Cloud Cover (5 Aug 2007)

I live about 7 km's away from the site of the mines. From what I understand from a friend, the mines may have been there for a while, and we are very lucky because kids play in that area all the time, and often throw boulders in the water to make a splash. I surmise that they found them because the water is quite low due to our semi-drought in these parts.  The news is reporting the mines were somehow connected to a timing device, which is quite troubling- maybe the mines were recently planted,the questions are by who and why?


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## 3rd Herd (5 Aug 2007)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly from my basic training many moons ago, practice mines were painted blue and had holes through them.



Not all of them. I have a green butterfly and I left a couple of other green replicas with a program I ran for awhile. As for finding an 'old' mine this does not surprise me in the least. Depending on where you live in Canada some have a better chance than others. As for me I will wait for the rest of the story to come out.


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## Franko (5 Aug 2007)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> It can't be a mine; we outlawed mines. (Hangun banners take note.)
> 
> Sarcasm meter off.



Ummm.....we stopped using anti pers mines, nothing about anti tank      

As for the authenticity of the mines in the pictures, I'll leave that to the Engineers on this site to discuss. Mind you I (and many other here) have trained with dummy and practice mines in the past and they have been painted either blue or gold with "DUMMY" in either white or black.

Regards


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## Blakey (5 Aug 2007)

Somerville Ltd did make shell casings during the war (WWII), I cannot find any other info in regards to training grounds other than the fact that a lot of troops boarded trains there headed east during the war (WWII).


> The government contracted most of the major industries to produce supplies for the War. In Strathroy, the Woolen Mills produced blankets for the troops and in 1943, the government bought 95% of the Mills’ blankets. Somerville Ltd., which had produced shipping tubes before the war, began making shells.





> "I'm sure a lot of our older citizens are going to feel saddened," said David
> Goode, former curator of the Strathroy-Middlesex Museum. "During both World
> Wars, that is where our soldiers departed and it's where they arrived home."



http://www.sydenhamdiscovery.ca/english/index.asp
http://www.railfan.net/lists/rshsdepot-digest/200403/msg00071.html

Edit: I highly doubt this is some kind of "terrorist plot".


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## McG (5 Aug 2007)

Blue & Gold are NATO standards for training & inert.  Anything older may have fully different meanings.

Blue can still kill or maim.  Blue is training & not necessarily inert.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Aug 2007)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Ummm.....we stopped using anti pers mines, nothing about anti tank
> 
> As for the authenticity of the mines in the pictures, I'll leave that to the Engineers on this site to discuss. Mind you I (and many other here) have trained with dummy and practice mines in the past and they have been painted either blue or gold with "DUMMY" in either white or black.
> 
> Regards



I can attest to those colours being accurate in todays training and I also have trained on a live canadian mine and it was different than the practice one.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Aug 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> Blue & Gold are NATO standards for training & inert.  Anything older may have fully different meanings.
> 
> Blue can still kill or maim.  Blue is training & not necessarily inert.



Except when you get the Warsaw Pact mine kits, all the mines are dummy and are blue


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## karl28 (5 Aug 2007)

Thankfully no one was hurt in this . by the sounds of the article its close by to  CFB borden and some site member's have provide links showing that this might be a WW2 mine  any chance this park was used for Training back in WW2 ?


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## formerarmybrat23 (5 Aug 2007)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> I live about 7 km's away from the site of the mines. From what I understand from a friend, the mines may have been there for a while, and we are very lucky because kids play in that area all the time, and often throw boulders in the water to make a splash. I surmise that they found them because the water is quite low due to our semi-drought in these parts.  The news is reporting the mines were somehow connected to a timing device, which is quite troubling- maybe the mines were recently planted,the questions are by who and why?



just read the article from the london newspaper. They do suspect they were recently placed, and are asking for any witnesses  who may have noticed anything strange lately. 

It is rather disturbing. Why place two mines in a quiet area where kids play? Can you imagine the horror that could have happened there? I shudder at the thought. Where exactly does one even accuire a land mine? Its not a casual purchase. I hope they find the person.


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## beach_bum (5 Aug 2007)

karl28 said:
			
		

> Thankfully no one was hurt in this . by the sounds of the article its close by to  CFB borden and some site member's have provide links showing that this might be a WW2 mine  any chance this park was used for Training back in WW2 ?



Actually, it's not really that close to Borden.


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## formerarmybrat23 (5 Aug 2007)

karl28 said:
			
		

> Thankfully no one was hurt in this . by the sounds of the article its close by to  CFB borden and some site member's have provide links showing that this might be a WW2 mine  any chance this park was used for Training back in WW2 ?



"The area has no history of a weapons storage depot, Overdulve said." Sgt Overdulve Strathroy-Caradoc police.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/05/ont-bomb-disposal.html


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## karl28 (5 Aug 2007)

formerarmybrat23  and beach_bum 
                   Thanks for the info was hoping that maby these where just forgotten over time  like that V1 rocket they found in  London early this month .


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## Trooper Hale (5 Aug 2007)

I might be way off here but...
Wouldnt using an Anti-tank mine in the hope of blowing up children be a bit of a silly idea? I mean, i was under the impression that anti-tank mines required a fair bit of weight on them to set them off. 
Am i wrong in this or does it not matter with older mines? 
Its still a very scary undertaking for someone to carry out. Its a sick and twisted mind that decides to mine a creek used by children.


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## formerarmybrat23 (5 Aug 2007)

i read in another article that there was also bridge where the mines were found, that is heavily used by those commuting to london.


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## Blakey (5 Aug 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> i read in another article that there was also bridge where the mines were found, that is heavily used by those commuting to london.



Link to the article please.

Here it says
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/243353


> A second device was discovered yesterday morning, about two metres from the first and 15 centimetres under water, by two members of the Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit, who arrived from CFB Borden yesterday morning.



and



> Police contained a one-kilometre area around the scene and conducted an extensive search for any other devices. They found nothing else, and deemed the area safe around 8 p.m. "I'm glad to say it's secure," acting Sgt. Mike McGuire said.
> 
> McGuire noted this was not the first time Strathroy-Caradoc police have been called in to deal with military ordnances found in the area.
> 
> "We've had a few over the years, people having an ordnance in their home after serving in (a past war)," he said.


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## the 48th regulator (5 Aug 2007)

Hale said:
			
		

> I might be way off here but...
> Wouldnt using an Anti-tank mine in the hope of blowing up children be a bit of a silly idea? I mean, i was under the impression that anti-tank mines required a fair bit of weight on them to set them off.
> Am i wrong in this or does it not matter with older mines?
> Its still a very scary undertaking for someone to carry out. Its a sick and twisted mind that decides to mine a creek used by children.





> After the detonation, the explosives experts found debris "consistent with timers," he said.



They were not pressure set, but with timers.

dileas

tess


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2007)

Hale said:
			
		

> i was under the impression that anti-tank mines required a fair bit of weight on them to set them off.



Indeed......that being said however:

When i served on my first tour in Croatia in 1995 as a field engineer we were breifed, and late found, AT mines that had been turned into AP mines.  This isnt hard to do let me tell you !!! I dont want to go into details on how this is done, so dont ask.


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## Devlin (6 Aug 2007)

If the reports described here are accurate and these devices were on a timer, then that's a very disheartening sign of the times we live in. If this does turn out to be the case one can only hope the authorities track down the oxygen thief who placed them.

All that said good work to the EOD gang from Borden on cleaning these up.  Braver troops than I


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## Kat Stevens (6 Aug 2007)

It's dead easy to mod a mine, just ask our recycled tractor tire sandal wearing friends.  The pressure exerted by a human running at top speed can cause an A/Tk mine to function if the plate is depressed in just the right way.


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## ArmyRick (6 Aug 2007)

Whoa! In Ontario? This aint so good


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## Trooper Hale (6 Aug 2007)

Roger, thanks for the clarification.
Someone needs to definately have a chat to the coppers and spend a little time in a cell i think.
Very scary thing to attempt to do to others.


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## geo (6 Aug 2007)

Who said it was safer at home?

At least in theatre, you know you have to be vigilant - while over here, you aren't much
and your kids are entirely ignorant of the dangers that lurk.


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## Trooper Hale (6 Aug 2007)

Its not a common thing though is it? I mean, you dont hear mothers saying to their kids "Now timmy, look after your sister and make sure you dont step on those land mines on the way to school". 
Thankfully neither Canada nor Australia are like that, but unfortunately for millions around the world i guess life is like that. Can you imagine having children in Africa or the middle east and actually having to teach them to look out for anti-pers mines and cluster bombs? 

Thats why the person who did this really needs to be severely dealt with i suppose, because our countries arent like that and never should be. Anyone who thinks about doing something like this needs, to quote Paracowboy, "To kneel and face the ditch".


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## geo (6 Aug 2007)

Unfortunately, our civilisation would never do that.  The perp has his rights?!?

I would venture to think that, if someone cobbled together a timer for their detonation, the perp felt that he had something to prove to the public......

Wait for it, this one will probably be a doozie


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Aug 2007)

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=40f927ea-8baa-4b69-87a9-5fb3c5028ba7&k=76943

Sgt. Mike Overdulve of the town's police service said the community of about 20,000 is breathing a collective sigh of relief. "There was a definite possiblity that a child ... could have detonated it," he said. "It certainly rocks the community."

Police cordoned off the area before the military experts  destroyed the mines in a controlled explosion. The debris is to be examined to determine the make and age of the mines, perhaps leading to an explanation why weapons associated with Afghanistan and the Balkans wound up in suburban Ontario.

Overdulve speculated that the mines could have been from someone's private collection of war heirlooms. "It's indicative of someone discarding the mines from the nearby roadway," he said


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## Retired AF Guy (6 Aug 2007)

Hale said:
			
		

> i was under the impression that anti-tank mines required a fair bit of weight on them to set them off.
> Am i wrong in this or does it not matter with older mines?



Not necessary. The Chinese produced an AT mine that could be detonated by someone stepping on it. The North Vietnamese used them against US forces during the Vietnam War.

Here the latest update:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/08/06/4397110-sun.html

Apparently, it appears that an timer of some type* was attached *to the mines.


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## Col.Steiner (6 Aug 2007)

I guess it is still too early for tests to have been done on the mines? It sounds as if some kids found them in Grandpa's footlocker and decided to play silly f..kers! I just love to blame it all on kids!


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Aug 2007)

link?


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## NL_engineer (6 Aug 2007)

Lets let the media play name what mine this is. 

 I'll try and take a look through the mine database at work tomorrow (if it is still working  :) and see what I can find.


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## aesop081 (6 Aug 2007)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I'll try and take a look through the mine database at work tomorrow



Pfffftttt.........all we ever needed was a decent FMP and a line level

You kids these days   :


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## NL_engineer (6 Aug 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Pfffftttt.........all we ever needed was a decent FMP and a line level
> 
> You kids these days   :



And those days are coming to an end, seeing more and more stuff is being put on computers (mines, EOD, Etc) ;D


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## SprCForr (8 Aug 2007)

The latest...

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2007/08/08/4401452-sun.html


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## formerarmybrat23 (8 Aug 2007)

well what a relief that is. That is too bad we may never know how they got there.


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## George Wallace (8 Aug 2007)

If that is an actual photo of the mine, then my suspicions have been correct.  There is no hole for a primer/fuse/detonator/etc on the top and it is a solid casing all around.  Probably with a screw on the bottom, so that it can be filled with sand, and perhaps a wire carrying handle.  Most Engineers, Crewmen (especially Assault Troopers), Pioneers, and Infanteers would be familiar with these practice mines in the last 50 or so years.  Many Reserve Units had them also.  They were held by many units in limited numbers for training purposes.  Some may have also gone AWOL over the past 60 years, pilfered by 'collectors'.  Guess someone decided they didn't need them in their 'collection' anymore.  Not a very bright way to dispose of them.  Someone could have been seriously hurt in the confusion, or in the actual distruction of them by the use of real explosives.  

I suppose the point should be made to anyone who is a "collector" that they should turn their stuff into the proper authorities, or if small enough, put them in one of the "Amnesty Boxes" found on most CF Bases.  Ammo Techs can attest to the numbers of cases each year where they are called to 'dispose of' someone's collection of live and/or inert ammo from previous years/wars.

Was this another case of someone who shouldn't be in the gene pool?  Guess, we will never know.


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## 043 (9 Aug 2007)

I am not sure if the EOD Tech would high order a device if it was full of sand therefore I doubt that they were inert. Time will tell!


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## George Wallace (9 Aug 2007)

2023

I hear what you are saying, and would venture to think that they would have done so as a precautionary act.


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## 043 (9 Aug 2007)

And actually George, I stand corrected. I have a pal who works as a EOD Tech, in a location close by whose unit responded. He said they weren't landmines. I just got off the phone with him.


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## geo (9 Aug 2007)

FWIW, if the devices have been in the ground some 50 or 60 yrs, there is a good probability that any paint applied by the manufacturer is long gone - thus, it's a rusty hunk of metal with few identifiable details.
Most EOD types would err on the side of caution when dealing with such a thing and, it was MUCH easier to set a charge to detonate the darned thing and pick over the pieces afterwards.

IMHO


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## MG34 (9 Aug 2007)

Okay now that the mystery has been solved everyone can climb off their high horses and continue normal activities,at first glance it was pretty much obvious they were inert,as in most cases such as this. The  fear mongering by the so called experts here and in the press is quite funny but unnecessary.


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## 043 (9 Aug 2007)

MG34................Ack!!!!


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## Danjanou (10 Aug 2007)

And speaking of fear mongering the tin foil hat brigades contributions and thoughts on this are amusing. You almost get the feeling they were disappointed when the truth came out..... all that time and effort wasted on nasty Right Wing Government conspiracies.  :

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009491


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## ammo618 (10 Aug 2007)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> And speaking of fear mongering the tin foil hat brigades contributions and thoughts on this are amusing. You almost get the feeling they were disappointed when the truth came out..... all that time and effort wasted on nasty Right Wing Government conspiracies.  :
> 
> http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009491



          Yes it's amazing how the imagination of a few can add speculative details to an event. The truth is that many times the  EOD team from Borden would respond to calls knowing the item was likely inert. ( I know...I used to be a member on it...) That being said, the procedures in place do not allow shortcuts or chances to be taken as various individuals have been known to apply their internet search knowledge to modify & add various energetic substances to inert trg aids. In this case the items were in a stream which. as you can imagine, complicated the team's ability to examine the mine in a useful way with the various tools/devices that are carried. It all comes down to how much time do we (the team) want to spend to find out what we suspect we already know. As was already said, the quickest solution to make the problem go away was to hit them with a suitable quantity of explosive and then pick up the pieces to analysis later; cordon down, area safe, everyone happy....

My 2 cents....

Jim


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## Danjanou (10 Aug 2007)

Jim I agree, I just have to laugh at how the moonbat brigade are so desperate to grasp onto any little pretext that puts the present Government and/or the military in a bad light. :


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## pbi (11 Aug 2007)

Good Lord! I hope that rabble babble site isn't indicative of the average mental level sitting behind keyboards in this country! Scary!  I doubt that even if the CF or the OPP was to provide detailed results of the analysis, these folks would see it as anything other than a "sinister government cover-up!" Amazing how these pinheads almost never take the time to reason something through and realize how pointless/unlikely/obscure those types of theories usually are.

Cheers


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