# Questions regarding Infantry Officer



## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

This is my first time posting and I've found some amazing information on the site. I'm in grade 11 and wanting to apply to ROTP. I'm wanting to become an Infantry Officer, but after reading some of the posts, I learned that Infantry Officers spend a majority of their time doing paper work in an office. I am not wanting a career where I am stuck in an office. I also found some posts talking about people joining the military as a NCM that have degrees. But I'm assuming that if I do get accepted into the ROTP they would want me to become an officer. The main reason I'm going to university is so that i have a backup plan in case the CF doesn't work out for me. I did look at some other careers within the CF that could lead to careers outside the CF, but I'm drawn to infantry. 

If you have any information or tips that could help me out that would be great.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

If you found enough information about Infantry officers to want to do that job, but are deterred by the thought of doing paperwork, then you need to rethink the way you're looking at all CF trades. None of them spend all day every day doing just the "sexy" things in the recruiting videos. You will have to reassess why you want to join the CF, and move away from thinking about it in terms of the things you want to do.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

First thank you for replying. 
Now I have no problem with doing paperwork, but it is the amount of it that some what worries me. From the posts that I have read it appears that most of a days work is stuck in the office. If this is untrue then that would clear it all up. I just want to know the type of things i'll be doing day to day (and I understand that everyday is different) instead of being suprised when I get there.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

Any officer will end up in jobs that consist mostly of "paperwork", many NCOs will also find themselves in positions eventually that will mean they do "paperwork" most of their day. If you never want to spend full days doing "paperwork", the CF may not be the place for you unless you plan to be a Private your entire career, and even then you'll have to be careful what trade you choose.

Even in the infantry, someone has to write the orders for operations and training events, someone has to write the training instructions for ranges, someone has to review and rewrite emergency plans and weapon publications, someone has to do the administrative paperwork for their soldiers careers. Don't dismiss the importance of the necessity to have competent people doing "paperwork."


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

Here's some extra Food for thought regarding paperwork, which in the Army, is called staff work:

The Young Officer and Staff Duties



> Being a good staff officer, either as a primary function (like the Adjutant), or in support of a line job (like a platoon commander submitting training requests), doesn't have to mean you have to like it. Effective staff officers seldom have to do things twice, or spend time sorting out their own paperwork messes. They get to spend more time with their troops, or working on other staff projects that benefit their units, because the routine administration was done right the first time. Clear staff writing that achieves a desired effect or response is as important to the fighting efficiency of a unit as skill at arms. It ensures beans and bullets are where they need to be in the right quantities, that troops have minimal lost training time for administrative reasons and that intentions and goals are well defined in support of the training requirement.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

Thanks again, because to be honest I knew that there would be paperwork but I simply thought it would only be a small amount. But now that you have explained the importance of it, it does not change the career path I chose. 

Another question, now that I realize that most CF careers lead to a large amount of paperwork, approximately how many years would you say I'd be working in the field? (as an infantry officer, and I understand that it would still involve paperwork)


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

While the "normal" projection is about half your career in units and half on staff position, I know Infantry officers that spent 20 out of 25 years in infantry battalions (although a number of the jobs they held included a lot of paperwork). I know others who spent 5 years in battalions out of 25 and the remainder on staff positions. Those staff positions can range from instructional postings at school, headquarters staff, base staff or other positions. There's really no "average" career, there are too many factors.


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## ballz (12 Mar 2011)

Before I get ahead of myself, let me tell you I am an Infantry O candidate with BMOQ and CAP done. I have zero experience in the actual job and most of the following is my "impression," which will vary with how accurate is, but I am sure someone can clarify where I am wrong.

The forces.ca site is down right now, but I believe it says you spend around 67% of your time in garrison and 33% in the field, so that will give you an idea of frequency right there. It may be 4 weeks in the office, 2 weeks in the field, or 2 in the office, 3 in the field, etc. That will always vary of course, but it's an idea.

Now, consider what you will be doing in the office. As Michael has said, they will be important. It's not necessarily staring blankly at black and white and thinking about how bored you are. You will be doing various things that comes down to one thing: looking after your troops.

One thing I have experience with from EWAT is the NPF Audit for a Major at a Cbt Engineer and an Infantry unit. Basically, they get certain funding for certain things, so a Physical Fitness Maintenance Grant of "x" dollars is one of them. This money is pay for equipment or various other things necessay to help troops in the unit maintain physical fitnss. They have to make those decisions, and hey have to properly account for where that money was spent, and how it was spent. Whatever money they don't spend in the year, they lose (in other words, their troops lose... if there's $1000 left in that account on April 1st, that's $1000 that the troops could have benefitted from but won't from their failure to utilize it). That's one account out of between 8 and 12 for each that I was preparing for an audit. As you can see, it's important for them to be on top of this administrative type duties, and you might find that it's not so boring when you can see the direct results (the benefit to the troops) to your good work, or if you can see the potential benefits lost due to your poor work.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

Now the people that you know who spent 5 years in battalions, did they get a choice in whether or not they wanted to leave the battalions?


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

Postings aren't driven by choice, you get to identify where you would like to be posted, and if everything works out you might get one of those choices, but when you're due to leave the battalion, you go.  The very few officers who spend a lot of time in the battalion are the fortunate victims of luck, sometimes helped by being known by new COs who want to keep them in location.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

ballz thanks a lot for that information. 

For either of you, as an infantry officer if your platoon goes on a tour, first do you go with them? (i'm assuming yes) Second if they go on patrols would you go as well? And I apologize if some of my terminology is incorrect, still researching and learning about everthing within the CF and about Infantry Officer as a career.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

If your platoon goes on tour, yes you go with them. If you are tasked to lead a patrol based on your platoon, you will be commanding your platoon.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

One of the main reasons why I'm drawn to the infantry is the hands on experience. Thanks a lot for all your help, if I have any more questions, which I'm sure I will, i'll be posting them. Thanks again


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## vonGarvin (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy
You may seem drawn by the thoughts of bullets flying and leading your men to victory.  You'd get your chance at it if you were successful on your infantry officer training.  Not all make it.  Yes, it's tough, but as stated, the importance of doing staff work cannot be over stated.  It may not be sexy, but it is rather rewarding.

I'll tell you about my tour in Afghanistan in 2008-2009.  I was a planning officer, locked in four walls at KAF, safely behind the wire.  I stared at maps, did my planning processes with my staff, and then produced orders that sent men and women into harm's way.  I may not have seen a single Afghan on that tour, but trust me, i was very conscious of the potential consequences of doing shoddy work.  To say that I lost sleep every time my orders were issued and the troops went out on missions would be an understatement.


So, it's a team effort, and though there are times you'd rather eat a bowl of Razor-Ohs than Cheerios, in the end, it's rewarding and challenging.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

Technoviking, just clariffying that you didn't go on the missions that you had to plan?


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## vonGarvin (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> Technoviking, just clariffying that you didn't go on the missions that you had to plan?


No, I didn't.  Well, I went out on one.  The BG issued about 100 plans in that time, from small deals to big deals, and I went out on one of them.


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## TangoTwoBravo (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> Technoviking, just clariffying that you didn't go on the missions that you had to plan?



Just to clarify, TV was the battle group (battalion) Plans Officer. As a platoon commander you would go on the operations that you plan. There will be exceptions, but commanders at all levels are usually out with their troops executing missions. You'd be looking at years if service before being Plans.


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## George Wallace (12 Mar 2011)

Planning occurs at all levels of command.  A Commander will make a plan for an operation and task his various subordinates through his Orders to complete various portions of his plan.  Those subordinates then take his plan and make their own plans to complete the task that he assigned them and then delegate to their subordinates through their own Orders, various tasks to complete.  These subordinates take these plans and develop their own plans to complete their tasks, tasking their subordinates, who then make plans to complete their tasks....... and so on and so on until you reach the lowest common denominator, the Section and then down to the (two man) Team.

When it comes to the Section and Teams conducting missions, the Platoon officer will likely not be accompanying them.

This will all be clearer for you once you have become a member of the CF.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

So it takes a few years not being part of the missions?

Another question, would I (as an Infantry Officer) be getting as much training as just an Infantry Soldier? Because I understand that Infantry Officers spend a lot of their day doing paper work and what have you, but do they still get to do training missions?

While Infantry Officers are working in the offices, do the Infantry Soldiers train most of the day? I'm just wanting to know which gets more hands on training.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy. your question has so many factors that there's no simple answer.

To begin with, yes, an infantry officer will get more training than an infantry soldier before arriving at the battalion. Over time, soldiers who progress will receive similar training and will go on courses you will not get. Conversely, your further training will usually be on courses those soldiers will never attend, and will be dedicated to preparing you for the jobs you will be doing, both command and staff appointments.

Your range of duties as an infantry officer will change with time, rank and scope of duties for the job you have at the time.  As a 2Lt or Lt, you'll be a Platoon Commander - you'll command your platoon on operations and exercises, although your "hands-on experience" will not be the same as your soldiers. But keep in mind that there's NO guarantee that your unit will deploy on operations while you are commanding that platoon. In garrison life, you will command the platoon on operations, and at all time, you will be responsible for the personnel management, administration and training of the platoon. That training will be in accordance with plans developed by a guy like Technoviking - you'll be told what ranges you are running, and where and what training you will conduct. When you aren't on exercise or executing pre-deployment training (such as when there's no deployment on the horizon), resources (ammo, money) are reduced to skill maintenance levels which could mean annual trips to ranges and fewer exercises. During these "dry" periods you'll be spending more time doing "paperwork" and the troops will find themselves spending idle days after vehicle and weapon maintenance is complete. There simply is not enough resources to have soldiers firing machine guns, etc., every day just because that is the popular image of what soldiers do. There are no movie scenes about low-tempo garrison life because its fucking boring and tedious at times.  If you're not ready for those periods of service as well, go back to my early comments abut rethinking the "why" of joining.


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

I'll try to be more detailed in my questions.
If I join as an Infantry Soldier, will I have the opportunity to become an Infantry Officer later in my career?


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## MJP (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> I'll try to be more detailed in my questions.
> If I join as an Infantry Soldier, will I have the opportunity to become an Infantry Officer later in my career?



Yes there are various commissioning programs out that that will allow you to do that.

Try a search for
UTPNCM
CFR
SCP
CEOTP


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

MJP thanks a lot for that I'm just looking them up now. 

Is it difficult to get accepted into these programs?
And do they look at your high school marks or your career so far?


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## GAP (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> MJP thanks a lot for that I'm just looking them up now.
> 
> Is it difficult to get accepted into these programs?
> And do they look at your high school marks or your career so far?



Read.....then ask...


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> Read.....then ask...



If you are going to offer cryptic advice, have the courtesy to include a link or specific search terms for the inquirer to start with.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> MJP thanks a lot for that I'm just looking them up now.
> 
> Is it difficult to get accepted into these programs?
> And do they look at your high school marks or your career so far?



All of those programs are competitive and none take a lot of people each year. For the ones that include a requirement of eligibility for university, your high school marks will be a factor because they may affect your acceptance into a required educational program.


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## dangles (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> MJP thanks a lot for that I'm just looking them up now.
> 
> Is it difficult to get accepted into these programs?
> And do they look at your high school marks or your career so far?



Although I am not in the CF, I can tell you that yes all of these programs are very competitive. Also, since these programs are dedicated towards you receiving a degree,  your highschool marks will have to come into view. This is because you MUST get accepted into a suitable University in order to receive a degree. And from what I hear, RMC has a more stringent required average than most other Universities out there [Although they probably could let you go to civi U through one of these programs - however I am ignorant of this, it is only an assumption]. 

Anyways, here is some advice about me in my current situation, it seems similar to what you are going through.

 I am currently working towards a degree at a University right now, with the intent to join up as an infantry soldier. From there I will decide whether or not I want to become an officer.  In my opinion, this gives me the advantage of:
 1) if I decide I do not want to pursue a career in the CF then my VIE is only 3 years [as an inf soldier] as opposed to 9 [for an infantry officer], 2) I get to see both sides of the spectrum [soldier vs officer], 3) from this perspective I get to see whether or not I even want to become an officer at all. 

But, this is truly about what you want to do. This is more than likely a life-changing decision for you, so just make sure that you know exactly what you are getting into. Maybe you could even join a reserve unit, or take the military co-op program in order to experience the CF a little before hand? The reserves can reimburse you up to $2000 for one year in University as well. Anyways, best of luck.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

dangles said:
			
		

> 3) from this perspective I get to see whether or not I even want to become an officer at all.



I can assure you that what the average soldiers "sees" of the full scope of duties executed by the unit's officers is very limited. Further to that it provides no visibility on the many roles an officer will perform once posted outside the unit. Do not depend on that experience to provide a comprehensive comparison.


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## dangles (12 Mar 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I can assure you that what the average soldiers "sees" of the full scope of duties executed by the unit's officers is very limited. Further to that it provides no visibility on the many roles an officer will perform once posted outside the unit. Do not depend on that experience to provide a comprehensive comparison.



Thank you Michael. Actually, I don't know why I wrote that, because one of my TA's who was an infantry soldier for awhile told me the same thing. Anyways, if I were to OT, it would be to Int O, so I would truly have no idea what those officers were up to regardless.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

dangles said:
			
		

> Thank you Michael. Actually, I don't know why I wrote that, because one of my TA's who was an infantry soldier for awhile told me the same thing. Anyways, if I were to OT, it would be to Int O, so I would truly have no idea what those officers were up to regardless.



That's the thing about positions of observation and virtual horizons, unless you actually change your position of observation and get a different perspective and see different things, you can become convinced you already see (know) everything there is to see (know).


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

Another question, if i join as an infantry soldier would i be able to change trades later in my career, to say a combat engineer? just curious


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## Michael OLeary (12 Mar 2011)

JustAnotherGuy said:
			
		

> Another question, if i join as an infantry soldier would i be able to change trades later in my career, to say a combat engineer? just curious



From another current thread:



			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Voluntary changes of trade are possible if:
> 
> a. the trade you are in is "Open" for transfers out,
> b. the trade you want to go to is "Open" for transfers in,
> ...


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## JustAnotherGuy (12 Mar 2011)

Thank you


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