# How to motivate the unmotivated



## Jarnhamar (18 Dec 2009)

This area seems like the right place.
I wanted to throw a question out and see everyone's opinion.

How do you motivate a checked out soldier who doesn't seem to give a shit about training?

Here is the scenario. You're a (reserve infantry) section commander with 11 decent soldiers in your section. All but one of them make an effort to make every training night and all training exercises. 
The one soldier who doesn't seem interested in training isn't a slug. He looks like a high speed low drag paratrooper fighting machine in incredible shape. Spends more time at the gym in a day then you do all week. He's smart guy, a quick learner and charismatic.

He doesn't attend Thursday training nights because he has night classes (but you notice he posts on facebook randomly and often while he's at "at school").
He doesn't attend week-end ex's because he's at rock concerts, comedian shows or playing Call of Duty modern warfare 2.

The training at your unit isn't boring or slacking. Live fire jungle lanes. Live fire Section attacks with a C6 shooting over your head. Posting live grenades into bunkers. Soon  firing through a live fie platoon attack with support weapons. Most of the junior leadership and all of the senior leadership have various tours (and the training reflects this).
There's no personality conflicts and your section has the highest morale and highest turn out in the company.

How do you motivate that soldier to get on board?


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## George Wallace (18 Dec 2009)

It would appear that he really isn't a super soldier, nor is he motivated.  In fact he does have a problem, and you are not likely to fix it.  He has an image problem.  He probably joined for a LCF, and now that he has it, that is all he needs.  Get all your toys back from him.  Make him NES, have him turn in all his kit, and open a position for a person who is more dedicated.


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## brihard (18 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> This area seems like the right place.
> I wanted to throw a question out and see everyone's opinion.
> 
> How do you motivate a checked out soldier who doesn't seem to give a crap about training?
> ...



Damn dude, sounds like you guys really have it together this year.

I think you need to determine if he's really interested in being a soldier, or if he's just playing army. It sounds like he's got all the raw material, minus the desire to actually to the job. I don't know if that's really something you can do much about...

Is he actually showing up often enough to stay off NES? Maybe a bit of 'tough love' or some sort of wake-up call is what he needs; he needs to realize it's either get in or get out.


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## FDO (18 Dec 2009)

3 things will help motivate this guy, IC, RW, C&P. If that does not motivate him fire his ass. 1 go getter in good shape is better that 3 slugs in great shape.


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## bran (18 Dec 2009)

I'm not trying to stick up for him, but a lot of students don't pay attention during class. That could be the reason he has facebook posts while he's supposed to be in class.


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## Sprinting Thistle (18 Dec 2009)

Has the sect comd talked to him?  Perhaps he needs more of a challenge?  Not everyone is motivated the same way.


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## MJP (18 Dec 2009)

Sprinting Thistle said:
			
		

> Has the sect comd talked to him?  Perhaps he needs more of a challenge?  Not everyone is motivated the same way.



I was just going to chime in along the same lines.  I've ran into this sort of soldier before Reg and Res and it hurts section cohesion to have these sort of asshats.  That said try and give him something to be responsible for for the section as a whole.  Sometimes that is all they need.  If that don't work, hammer him and make him think twice about his (non)commitment to the reserves.


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## CallOfDuty (18 Dec 2009)

I fully agree with George.  Sooooo...what does he contribute to the unit??   If nothing is the answer, time to say bye bye.


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## Franko (18 Dec 2009)

Interview him and put him on notice. Doesn't improve? Show him the door.

My       :2c:

Regards


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

I see a few people say "Show him the door". What exactly do you mean? Kick him out? I dont see how that's possible.


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## CBH99 (19 Dec 2009)

I would say interview him, see whats going on.  Let him know that you expect more of him - but at the same time, see whats going in his life.  He might be more motivated than he's able to show, you never know with students.

Maybe give him a responsibility within the section.  I know when I first started out, feeling useless was the most unmotivating thing that I experienced.  Once I had responsibilities and actually felt useful around the unit, I know my committment became a lot more solid.

Talk to him, see whats going on (school, finances, etc.)  If he really is just playing army + unmotivated, open up a position for someone who is.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Dec 2009)

You should sit him down with a nice mug of cocoa, maybe a couple of marshmallows in it and some nice cookies, and explain that it's perfectly okay to underachieve, in fact there are government programs that promote it.  It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.  Give him a hug, he'll appreciate it.


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

I hear those suggestions often, and it may work for some individuals but not others.

Personally, based on your description of the guy, he has the skill, the knowledge and the LCF... maybe what he needs is the BCF, the "Be Cool Factor" to bring him back, as in, he needs to accomplish something he can be proud of. He needs to do something cool that he hasnt done before, or something that can make him feel he's achieved something.

While you may think the training is cool and exciting and highspeed, maybe he sees it differently? Not gets the same value out of all training. His idea of achieving something and challenging himself might not be pepperpotting in a (roughly) straight line shooting at a piece of plastic that pops up occasionally. At the end of it, was there any doubt that he'd make it to the consolidation? No. 

Thats my view on it. Another possible reason is that maybe there's some animosity between him and someone/some people in the unit. That can be another factor which shouldnt be overlooked.


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> How do you motivate a *checked out* soldier . . .



What's your definition of "checked out"?



> . . . doesn't seem interested in training . . . doesn't attend Thursday training nights . . . doesn't attend week-end ex's . . .



When does he attend?  Or is this just a summer job for him?  Or does he only show up when it is a "party" function?  What makes him worth your time? Is it because you like him since he is "charismatic"?  It's easy to quickly write off a worthless piece of crap someone who doesn't look the part and isn't personable; perhaps you're falling into the opposite trap, seeing benefit when the only thing about him is outer appearance - no substance.


CF MIL PERS INSTR 20/04
ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY OF CLASS "A", CLASS "B" AND CLASS "C" RESERVE SERVICE



> 3.12 Non-Effective Strength (NES)
> 
> a.   Except for a member of the PRL, *a Res F member shall be declared NES when their unauthorized absence from duty has exceeded 30 days, during which time no fewer than three duty periods were conducted by the unit.* A period during which a member has been declared NES does not count toward qualifying service for promotion, incentive pay, Canadian Forces' Decoration or clasp, or the RFRG. NES shall not be approved retroactively.
> 
> ...



It is commendable that you have the correct instinct for a NCO leader; you wish to make a better soldier of this man.  That can be a greater challenge in the Reserves than in the Regulars.  You have fewer "carrots" and fewer "sticks" and less time to employ either motivator.  Since it seems that you have made some investigation into what this man is doing when there is scheduled training, the next step (if it hasn't already happened) would be to discuss the situation next up your chain of command, especially if he hasn't paraded enough to be considered "effective".


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## Jarnhamar (19 Dec 2009)

Checked out? I thought that was a pretty standard definition.  He's skilled requires minimum supervision and smart.  Doesn't set himself on fire when lighting stoves  ;D


I'm not ready to see him kicked out of the military. The CF spent a lot of money to train him and I wouldn't be a good leader if I didn't do everything in my power to keep I'm (within reason).  Hell I'm emailing calling and face booking soldies who are currently on NES and on their way to being released under a 5F telling them I'll help them write up an ED&T memo or help them release to try and spare them from being booted out. 

In my opinion especially with the budget cuts you couldn't ask for better training at the reserve level right now. Live fire pistols rifles machine guns m203s 84mm's etc..  If THAT doesn't motivate someone to parade I don't know what will.  

In this case I don't think an individual should be given a special kind of duty within the section or platoon to prompt him to come in and work. TO me that's like a soldier saying "Put me on a jump course or I'm quitting".

As far s NES goes, he can miss a month, be warned about the NES status then come in for a training night, then miss another month. Maybe get warned again.
Do reserve members HAVE to attend week-end training exercises? Or must they only parade one training night a month to remain active?

I don't get the feeling both from the few times I have had a chance to speak with him and from his peers who are in the section and in his class at school that he has any sort of personal issue going on. He just strikes me as being too busy to work.

Maybe pushing him to go on ED&T until he decides to put an effort into work is in order? That way he is out of the company and it's not an administrative burden always trying to contact him or pulling out the NES card every month. 
I want to motivate him but I can't help but think at what cost.  I want the unit to benefit from the soldier and the soldier to excel but after reading the responses here (thanks) I'm begining to think maybe I'm trying to be too much of a crusader.


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## NCRCrow (19 Dec 2009)

dumb question from me: Can you put a Class A reservist on an IC, RW etc.

(I am quite conversant with the QR&O's and DAOD's)

If so, would the person who is not so dedicated or does not care, just turn in there kit?


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2009)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> dumb question from me: Can you put a Class A reservist on an IC, RW etc.
> 
> (I am quite conversant with the QR&O's and DAOD's)
> 
> If so, would the person who is not so dedicated or does not care, just turn in there kit?



Yes.


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## NCRCrow (19 Dec 2009)

Could the person just not show up to sign the IC?


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2009)

He would then eventually go NES then Release. If it were up to me, it would sit in the drawer and would be signed and started, the first time he entered the DND establishment. He comes under the NDA the minute he steps foot on the property, parading or not.


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## NCRCrow (19 Dec 2009)

So when the person is turning in their kit, you make them sign it even though they are NES and releasing.

Class A reservists (in my opinion) are people that want to be (volunteers) there and learn and contribute and not be a pain in the ass.

If you are going to be an immature ass stay at home.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2009)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> So when the person is turning in their kit, you make them sign it even though they are NES and releasing.
> 
> Class A reservists (in my opinion) are people that want to be (volunteers) there and learn and contribute and not be a pain in the ass.
> 
> If you are going to be an immature ass stay at home.


No. That's not what I meant. If they were in fact releasing, you could, but it would be a waste of time. I simply meant that if they didn't come in to sign, eventually they would be NES and released. If they didn't release, it would be there for them when they started parading again.


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## NCRCrow (19 Dec 2009)

I would use an IC as the last resort and see your point.


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## Haggis (19 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Checked out? I thought that was a pretty standard definition.  He's skilled requires minimum supervision and smart.


  Clearly, he requires more than minimal supervision since you have to expend more effort than "normal" in getting him to parade.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm not ready to see him kicked out of the military. The CF spent a lot of money to train him and I wouldn't be a good leader if I didn't do everything in my power to keep I'm (within reason).  Hell I'm emailing calling and face booking soldies who are currently on NES and on their way to being released under a 5F telling them I'll help them write up an ED&T memo or help them release to try and spare them from being booted out.


  That's highly commendable.  Hopefully your peers are doing the same. There comes a time, however, when you need to cut your losses on this one and concentrate on the ones who are reliable.  I'd rather have 75 troops who parade and train hard and consistently than 150 who need to be coaxed away from PS3 every training night and guilted into attending weekend exercises.  It's no fun for them and it's certainly no fun for you.



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> ... you couldn't ask for better training at the reserve level right now. Live fire pistols rifles machine guns m203s 84mm's etc..  If THAT doesn't motivate someone to parade I don't know what will.


 I feel your pain.   



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> In this case I don't think an individual should be given a special kind of duty within the section or platoon to prompt him to come in and work. TO me that's like a soldier saying "Put me on a jump course or I'm quitting".


  How about trying "show up more often and you might just get a jump course".



			
				Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Do reserve members HAVE to attend week-end training exercises? Or must they only parade one training night a month to remain active?


  They have to attend one training session every thirty days.  A 'training session" is either a parade night or a weekend exercise.


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

> In my opinion especially with the budget cuts you couldn't ask for better training at the reserve level right now. Live fire pistols rifles machine guns m203s 84mm's etc..  If THAT doesn't motivate someone to parade I don't know what will.



The training may be cool, but I dont necessairly believe that is challenging. Either way, that would be straying from the topic.



> How about trying "show up more often and you might just get a jump course".



That very well may work, if the soldier doesnt believe it's a bluff. 



> I'm not ready to see him kicked out of the military. The CF spent a lot of money to train him and I wouldn't be a good leader if I didn't do everything in my power to keep I'm (within reason).  Hell I'm emailing calling and face booking soldies who are currently on NES and on their way to being released under a 5F telling them I'll help them write up an ED&T memo or help them release to try and spare them from being booted out.



Thats good, but there reaches a certain point when they have to realise they're are responsible for their own actions, and that there are consequences for these actions. Maybe the individual just needs to have to face the consequences to realise that.


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## Haggis (19 Dec 2009)

Nero said:
			
		

> The training may be cool, but I dont necessairly believe that is challenging. Either way, that would be straying from the topic.


 (Slight tangent) Trust me.  You have no idea how challenging the training Flawed Design's unit is doing has been.  Not just shooting, but live fire and manouevre with all the weapons he noted.  Tough and downright scary at times. (Tangent ends)

His point is that the soldier knows what type of cool and challenging training is planned yet doesn't show up.  And if he doesn't beleive the chain of command when they tell him "Hey, Bloggins, it's gonna be a great ex! You should come out!", he hears about if from his buddies.  This asks the rhetorcial question "why?".



			
				Nero said:
			
		

> That very well may work, if the soldier doesnt believe it's a bluff.



Well he won't know until he starts parading, will he?  It's also quite evident when he doesn't get selected for the (insert name of HSLD course here) but his regularly parading section mate does that commitment is rewarded.


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

> (Slight tangent) Trust me.  You have no idea how challenging the training Flawed Design's unit is doing has been.  Not just shooting, but live fire and manouevre with all the weapons he noted.  Tough and downright scary at times. (Tangent ends)
> 
> His point is that the soldier knows what type of cool and challenging training is planned yet doesn't show up.  And if he doesn't beleive the chain of command when they tell him "Hey, Bloggins, it's gonna be a great ex! You should come out!", he hears about if from his buddies.  This asks the rhetorcial question "why?".



Perhaps he truely doesnt find such a thing challenging. Or maybe he doesnt find it challenging the way he needs to be challenged? Live fire section attacks, with or without grenades, are still section attacks. Its not challenging the same way as other training can be. (Im trying not to get too involved in this here. This is a topic I could go on with forever.)

I do have a question, however. Were exercises always portrayed that way? As in "Its going to be a good ex, you should come out?" or was there ever a time when the unit didnt try to "sell" the exercise to the soldier as if its a product? How did attendance compare to back then? Personally, if it were me in that troops shoes, I'd be 10x more eager to attend an exercise when I hear its going to be "Hard, sleepless, challenging and miserable". Afterall, thats what soldiering is sometimes, and thats what I joined for. Maybe hes the same way?



> Well he won't know until he starts parading, will he?  It's also quite evident when he doesn't get selected for the (insert name of HSLD course here) but his regularly parading section mate does that commitment is rewarded.



Does he see others getting rewarded with HSLD courses though?


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## Jarnhamar (19 Dec 2009)

Nero. 
The training and challenge factor are important things when dealing with motivating volunteer soldiers to come into work so I don't think you're off the mark.
 I remember skipping a lot of work years ago because it seemed like all we did was light stupid stoves over and over or dick around with tents in toboggans. I have better things to do with my Thursday nights.

I like to think our training nights now are far more interactive. The other month while prepping for a live fire jungle lane we took the parade square and turned it upside down with vehicle,s barrels, obstacles, low wire(like) entanglement and made two jungle lanes giving 4 of our best shots paintguns with speed balls as enemy force and sending pairs through the maze of junk using cover and movement. That's pretty fun AND challenging if you ask me.

The problem is you can't grab a young new soldier and send them through a kill house.  You need to run them through jungle lanes blank/live, pairs jungle lane blank/live. Then section attacks blank/live.  Platoon attacks blank & live.  You might be able to skip something here and there but ultimately you need to build up to the challenging stuff.

When soldiers miss out on the initial training it's a major drag because before you can put someone in a platoon setting and have them do their thing you need to put them through their paces alone, as a team, as a section which is going to take valuable daylight time and resources.  In my example if this soldier asks about the platoon attack training what can I say to him? 
"Chances are you'll be on radio watch all weekend since we don't have time to bring you up to speed and make up for all the training you missed"

I'm pretty confident all our ex's as of late have been positive.
Nero here's a question. When you say a section attack is just a section attack, what kind of training do you consider challenging?
Section attacks posting grenades in bunkers (and not just concrete throwing bays) mixed with gunfighter training (Pistol PWTs & C7/Pistol transition drills) to me is top of the food chain in the reserve world. 
I didn't even do this training when I was on work up for Afghanistan. What would you consider as challenging training which can be run reserve level?


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## brihard (19 Dec 2009)

I'll vouch for Flawed on this. The training he's describing is phenomenal for a reserve unit, particularly at this juncture in the training year.  He's correct in saying that our organization didn't even do this on workup training. We did do pretty low speed live fire section attacks, and a life fire platoon defense with the rifles, C9s and C6, but that was as far as it went.

I'm honestly envious of Flawed's regiment right now.


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## blacktriangle (19 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design, 

It doesn't sound like a leadership or training problem. It sounds like a personal problem. His. Get him in for one more night, turn over the section to one of the dedicated Pte/Cpls and take him out for a brisk BFT. Beast him. 

Have release papers waiting for him at the finish line. You have soldiers to train.


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

> Nero.
> The training and challenge factor are important things when dealing with motivating volunteer soldiers to come into work so I don't think you're off the mark.
> I remember skipping a lot of work years ago because it seemed like all we did was light stupid stoves over and over or dick around with tents in toboggans. I have better things to do with my Thursday nights.



The way I see it, the army is meant to be more than a job. If you dont challenge the troops, make them feel like it is more than a job, then all it becomes is a job for them. Different than sweeping isles at Farm boy, but a job none the less, and they'll treat it as "just a job".



> I like to think our training nights now are far more interactive. The other month while prepping for a live fire jungle lane we took the parade square and turned it upside down with vehicle,s barrels, obstacles, low wire(like) entanglement and made two jungle lanes giving 4 of our best shots paintguns with speed balls as enemy force and sending pairs through the maze of junk using cover and movement. That's pretty fun AND challenging if you ask me.



For a thursday night yes, thats pretty good, considering the limited amount of time and resources you have, but how is it challenging? How does a soldier feel challenged afterwards? Are most of the thursday nights like this, or are they not? 



> The problem is you can't grab a young new soldier and send them through a kill house.  You need to run them through jungle lanes blank/live, pairs jungle lane blank/live. Then section attacks blank/live.  Platoon attacks blank & live.  You might be able to skip something here and there but ultimately you need to build up to the challenging stuff.



Youre assuming all of the challenging stuff is live fire. I propose that there can be a lot more challenging stuff without resorting to live fire. The best times I've had on exercise was not doing live fire, but with blank or even no ammo. 

Most of the time, because of safety concerns, I think the live fire actually takes away from the challenging stuff. 

Either way, I stay of the opinion that the troops need to be challenged on exercise, and that this will increase meaningful attendance. Sure you'll lose the ones that are in it for the easy ride, but you'll gain those who are on the verge of quitting or CTing because they're not learning/being challenged. Along with that, I'm of the opinion that live fire section attacks arent a "challenging" exercise. I wouldnt even consider it an exercise, I'd consider it IBTS. Get to the point of livefire section attacks if necessary, get it accomplished by october/november and then dedicate the rest of the year to organizing challenging exercises. Ones where you're not able to tell the troops "It'll be a good go. It wont be hard. We're sleeping in heated tents" and rather ones that you can tell the troops "Make sure someone's picking you up sunday night, because we're non-stop from 1830 Friday night. Pack light."



> I'm pretty confident all our ex's as of late have been positive.



How long has attendance been suffering, and how long have the ex's been live fire section attack oriented? I'd suggest that the next training year, focus on making the exercises as hard and challenging as possible. Make the troops  _and_ the leaders endure hardship, and see what attendance will be like then, and see what the quality of the soldiers is then. Enduring hardship like this will make the troops and leaders bond. They'll hate it during the exercise (maybe), and Sunday when its all over they'll look back at all the good stories that they got from the exercise, all the hardship, all the things that went great, all the things that went horribly, all the things that they did that they can be proud of and they'll want to do it again. I'm willing to bet you you'll increase section cohesion, you'll see who the true soldiers are and, once the dead weight is cut, you'll see attendance remains high. Furthermore, you'll have these soldiers now setting the example for the young ones, and this will help keep the brand new soldiers from becoming "dead weight" to the unit. 

Thats how I believe the attendence issue can be resolved.



> When you say a section attack is just a section attack, what kind of training do you consider challenging?
> Section attacks posting grenades in bunkers (and not just concrete throwing bays) mixed with gunfighter training (Pistol PWTs & C7/Pistol transition drills) to me is top of the food chain in the reserve world.



Maybe it is to you, but that doesnt necessairly mean everyone sees it that way. I propose this as an example for challenging training: Orders are hashed out by the ICs Thursday night, while the 2IC do "rehearsals"/training/battle procedure with the troops. Friday night orders are given to your section, and immediately you get off the bus, grab your equipment and its go. Its tactical. You dont "pack the rope for the one rope bridge" in a vehicle. You take it with you. You walk however far is required to your hide, set up your hide, deploy your OPs/recces/what have you and you operate, tactically, with an enemy force that isnt scripted to "sit on their ass and fire a couple of shots", but rather are intent on finding you. Sunday, book the range from sun-up and do those pistol transition drills and whatnot.

The best year in the reserves I had, the one that I learnt about 90% of what I know from infact, it was run like this. Friday we got off the vehicles infront of the mess, grabbed whatever kit we had to grab (radios, ammo, rope, etc.) and hiked out at least 18km to where we did a partisan link up, set up our hide or deployed on our recce, whatever the situation was, and our final destination was conveniently at one of the ranges, either the Ridley Walters range or some conventional range, we did the debrief there and did some shooting.

The manpower that was required to set this up? We had 3 GD and 1 WO.

Those were the days when we'd cover 30km in a weekend exercise, set up an OP and perform 3 recces, and finally did some live fire at the end, and to accomplish this it took some out of the box thinking. Half the reason we could accomplish this is because we didnt pack "Best Western" in a cube van and take it with us to set up and tear down during the ex. The most we'd bring with us on those exercise that wasnt mission critical was tables and hayboxes. We didnt have to dedicate so much time to tearing down and packing up.

There are plenty of ways to make the training challenging. Sleeping in a heated mod tent in a little city you braught with you from your armoury isnt one of them.



> What would you consider as challenging training which can be run reserve level?



I realise it seems like its running off topic now talking about the challenging training, but it is my firm belief that that is how you can motivate such a soldier to attend.


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## Haggis (19 Dec 2009)

Nero said:
			
		

> Youre assuming all of the challenging stuff is live fire. I propose that there can be a lot more challenging stuff without resorting to live fire. The best times I've had on exercise was not doing live fire, but with blank or even no ammo.


  Yes, other training can be challenging, but this live fre training is also directed by higher.


			
				Nero said:
			
		

> Most of the time, because of safety concerns, I think the live fire actually takes away from the challenging stuff.


  If the safety requirements are done properly and layered onto the tactical scenario, then, no it doesn't really take away from training.



			
				Nero said:
			
		

> Either way, I stay of the opinion that the troops need to be challenged on exercise, and that this will increase meaningful attendance. Sure you'll lose the ones that are in it for the easy ride, but you'll gain those who are on the verge of quitting or CTing because they're not learning/being challenged. Along with that, I'm of the opinion that live fire section attacks arent a "challenging" exercise. I wouldnt even consider it an exercise, I'd consider it IBTS. Get to the point of livefire section attacks if necessary, get it accomplished by october/november and then dedicate the rest of the year to organizing challenging exercises. Ones where you're not able to tell the troops "It'll be a good go. It wont be hard. We're sleeping in heated tents" and rather ones that you can tell the troops "Make sure someone's picking you up sunday night, because we're non-stop from 1830 Friday night. Pack light."


There's a place for those type of exercises, too.  The ideal plan is to mix them up.  I've seen Reserve units who do the exercises you described every time they deploy and burn the troops right to the ground.  Guys go into work on Monday all f**ked up and get fired.  Those who stick around get tired of being beasted every month and also hear stories from other units who do, in fact, mix it up.  Challenge also requires variety.



			
				Nero said:
			
		

> How long has attendance been suffering, and how long have the ex's been live fire section attack oriented?


 For as long as the training has been so directed from Brigade and Area.  Reserve units have to stay within their arcs while training, particularly when going to higher for resources from outside the unit.[/quote]



			
				Nero said:
			
		

> I'd suggest that the next training year, focus on making the exercises as hard and challenging as possible. Make the troops  _and_ the leaders endure hardship, and see what attendance will be like then, and see what the quality of the soldiers is then.





			
				Nero said:
			
		

> Thats how I believe the attendence issue can be resolved.



Remember, Flawed Design is talking about the attendance of ONE less-than-ideally-motivated soldier here, not his entire unit.


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## Forgotten_Hero (19 Dec 2009)

> There's a place for those type of exercises, too.  The ideal plan is to mix them up.  I've seen Reserve units who do the exercises you described every time they deploy and burn the troops right to the ground.  Guys go into work on Monday all f**ked up and get fired.  Those who stick around get tired of being beasted every month and also hear stories from other units who do, in fact, mix it up.  Challenge also requires variety.



Indeed, challenge does also require variety. There's other ways to be challenged aswell though, besides the physical. Put the troops in scenarios where they have to think on their feet. I find that it is difficult to do this with live fire section attacks.



> For as long as the training has been so directed from Brigade and Area.  Reserve units have to stay within their arcs while training, particularly when going to higher for resources from outside the unit.



I see. I understand that it can come down from higher. It is my view, though, that the focus of whoever is directing the training (be it the unit or brigade), is having an impact on the quality of the soldiers and thus an impact on the attendance. That is my opinion, and if something doesnt work, I feel its counter productive to keep doing it and giving the impression that it is working. I realise others may see things differently though and may disagree. 



> Remember, Flawed Design is talking about the attendance of ONE less-than-ideally-motivated soldier here, not his entire unit.



Hah, yes. I got slightly carried away when dealing with the subject. Having said that, I'm sure that if there's one, there's others.

Flawed Design did mention live fire platoon attacks. May I suggest this to incorporate into that exercise, as a way to add variety, challenge and so on?

Have the scenario prepared before hand. Thursday night, battle procedure is done, and friday from the minute they step off the bus, it is tactical. No biv site, no nothing. You get off the bus, grab your equipment, and ruck to wherever you will end up setting up your hide. Hell, even give them blanks, just to keep them alert. They perform their hide routine, recce deploys to get eyes on the objective.

On the objective, you can have the lockheed martin targets up so that Recce can establish their positions, aswell as have enemy force with blanks on position too, so that the recce element actually has to be careful not to get caught. Battleprocedure is being finished up at the hide while the recce element is out. Before departing the hide, replace the blanks with live and youre off.


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## aesop081 (19 Dec 2009)

Your guy is the "able but unwilling" kind....*

1- Interview him directly. Face to face, nothing less. Ask him why he isnt showing interest in participating. The problem could be personal or it could be anything, listen closely, dont go in with the "show up or your out" mentality from the outset.

2- Explain to him the consequences if his behaviour should continue.

3- Agree on a way ahead, if if its only to meet regularly to see how things are progressing.

4- Follow-up.........follow-up.........follow-up


For all you know, all this "HSLD" training you revel so much, is not what he thought reserve infantry life was going to be so dont judge in advance. I have found over the years that what i thought was the problem was more often than not 180 degrees out after i took 5 minutes to talk to soldiers under my charge.



*Read "The 3-meter zone - Common sense leadership for NCOs" By Command Sgt-maj J.D. Pendry


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## vonGarvin (20 Dec 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> You should sit him down with a nice mug of cocoa, maybe a couple of marshmallows in it and some nice cookies, and explain that it's perfectly okay to underachieve, in fact there are government programs that promote it.  It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.  Give him a hug, he'll appreciate it.


:rofl:


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## Jarnhamar (20 Dec 2009)

I believe I have an excellent course of action thanks to the responses from everyone in the thread (Thanks all)

The motivation/training/live fire vs blank issue points being brought up are interesting. 



			
				Nero said:
			
		

> Indeed, challenge does also require variety. There's other ways to be challenged aswell though, besides the physical. Put the troops in scenarios where they have to think on their feet. I find that it is difficult to do this with live fire section attacks.


A standard point A to point B section attack yes I would agree, it can get tedious. We have thrown wrenches into the game plan purposefully here. 
 Choosing ground that at times splits the section up causing sub-leadership elements (Section 2ICs, fire team leaders) to really step up and put their thinking hats on.
Turing a jungle lane into a shoot/don't shoot scenario with "hostages".
Scenarios during section attacks which require the section commander to direct fire from M203s into specific targets or direct MG support.



> Hah, yes. I got slightly carried away when dealing with the subject. Having said that, I'm sure that if there's one, there's others.


No doubt, I'm sure there is.  Given the circumstances in my example such as the member not showing up for a month in the first place or attending the first two ex's he never really had a chance to not be challenged in the first place. If he was there from day one and said this sucks, I can understand. 



> Flawed Design did mention live fire platoon attacks. May I suggest this to incorporate into that exercise, as a way to add variety, challenge and so on?
> Have the scenario prepared before hand. Thursday night, battle procedure is done, and friday from the minute they step off the bus, it is tactical. No biv site, no nothing. You get off the bus, grab your equipment, and ruck to wherever you will end up setting up your hide. Hell, even give them blanks, just to keep them alert. They perform their hide routine, recce deploys to get eyes on the objective.
> On the objective, you can have the lockheed martin targets up so that Recce can establish their positions, aswell as have enemy force with blanks on position too, so that the recce element actually has to be careful not to get caught. Battleprocedure is being finished up at the hide while the recce element is out. Before departing the hide, replace the blanks with live and youre off.


You're gonna laugh but that's exactly what it sounds like our higher ups have planned so far.
Full tactical ex.   
Blanks, platoon hide, full battle procedure, sending out recces, enemy force (force on force) which rolls into a live fire platoon attack with support weapons bunker clearing.

Then run away and get on the bus home  ;D

Training like that IMO is the best of both worlds. 
I always found in the reserves (in the past) the lack of live fire seemed to make soldiers afraid of shooting real bullets. You'd find Corporals with a few years in scared as shit because they've never done a live section attack. I've seen some pretty scary (embarrassing) shit from reserve senior corporals and master corporals who showed up for work up training and got put on a range.
Now we are taking young soldiers fresh off their DP1 and saying 'lets go'.  It's not so much about HSLD training (because this isn't) but creating a strong foundation for these guys right from the start.

Half my section self-identified for Afghanistan. After the training their getting I'll be proud to send them up to Petawawa.

I think the biggest challenge in this whole thing is the limited training time. Thursday nights and weekends here and there isn't very much time. On the same note like Haggis said when you beast troops and cram too much into a training weekend you burn guys out which demotivates them.  I've been on my fair share of those ex's too.

Brihard, are you guys down to one Thursday a month or is you're training calendar pretty much unaffected? And ya the lack of training on work up seemed almost criminal.


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## Forgotten_Hero (20 Dec 2009)

> A standard point A to point B section attack yes I would agree, it can get tedious. We have thrown wrenches into the game plan purposefully here.
> Choosing ground that at times splits the section up causing sub-leadership elements (Section 2ICs, fire team leaders) to really step up and put their thinking hats on.



Did they really put their thinking hats on though, or was it pretty standard stuff? In the end, it was still a frontal, enemy straight to the front and so on. Perhaps expand the arcs to 180o minimum, if possible, and bump the section completely from the flank. I've ran into a situation like that before but was limited to what I could do because the targets were out of the range template arcs. 
In the end, though, its still a section attack, and if this is all you focus on for a training year, it will get dull. I'd say focus on this as part of IBTS, and then move on and include some more challenging soldiering for the rest of the year. Im not sure how this would fall into higher ups "plan", but perhaps it just needs to be suggested to higher up?

As far as making that kind of training challenging... what I had done before, during a repetitive week of "Section attacks" during Raging Wolf, was I put all of the troops through the position of leading one. For them, this would be a challenge. It would be something "new" to them, which they can learn a very great deal from. You and your 2ic might not always be there/be alive to carry out the section attack, so any one of the troops could be in the position to have to make the decisions. Putting them in that spot now gives them an idea of what needs to be done on the commander's part, and I found that this helped them, as section members, understand what is expected of them.



> Given the circumstances in my example such as the member not showing up for a month in the first place or attending the first two ex's he never really had a chance to not be challenged in the first place. If he was there from day one and said this sucks, I can understand.



I dont know... if he's a keen troop like you say... even if he misses "Up he sees me down. Bang bang" alone and in pairs, I dont think he'll find "Up he sees me down. Bang bang" to be challenging in a section.

I feel I should also point out that just because something may not be challenging doesnt mean you dont necessairly learn from it. You can take away lessons from everything... but I do believe if its challenging, the quality of the lessons learned will be greater.



> You're gonna laugh but that's exactly what it sound like our higher ups have planned so far.
> Full tactical ex.
> Blanks, platoon hide, full battle procedure, sending out recces, enemy force (force on force) which rolls into a live fire platoon attack with support weapons bunker clearing.
> 
> Then run away and get on the bus home



Good. We'll have to see if it pans out. 



> Training like that IMO is the best of both worlds.
> I always found in the reserves (in the past) the lack of live fire seemed to make soldiers afraid of shooting real bullets. You'd find Corporals with a few years in scared as crap because they've never done a live section attack. I've seen some pretty scary (embarrassing) crap from reserve senior corporals and master corporals who showed up for work up training and got put on a range.
> Now we are taking young soldiers fresh off their DP1 and saying 'lets go'.  It's not so much about HSLD training (because this isn't) but creating a strong foundation for these guys right from the start.



I agree, which is why I think something like a live fire section attack and some live fire scenarios (not range stuff, but actual field firing) should be part of IBTS. It should be a stepping stone to the blank-fire exercises, not the other way around. Why? Because people get complacent with blanks and develop bad habits. Train them with live where they wont be complacent, and they'll develop good habits and confidence which they'll bring to the blank-fire exercises.

Each have their own merits. You cant get rid of one and keep the other. People need to be confident they can perform their job properly with live rounds, hence the live fire training... But soldiers need to be able to think on their feet and close with and destroy a *thinking* enemy, which you cant train for with Figure 11s or Lockheed Martin targets.



> I think the biggest challenge in this whole thing is the limited training time. Thursday nights and weekends here and there isn't very much time. On the same note like Haggis said when you beast troops and cram too much into a training weekend you burn guys out which demotivates them.  I've been on my fair share of those ex's too.



A lot of good training can still be done on the limited training time, without "cramming" anything in, as long as you stay goal oriented and dont go off on tangents, in my opinion. Ive had the opposite experience with challenging exercises though. Some people left because they couldnt handle it, yes, but the majority stayed and learned a lot. 

I think its important to know what you mean by "Beasted" though. Its important to differentiate between cock and training. You will, definitly, demotivate everyone if you make them suffer just to make them suffer. If you design the exercise not with the goal of "beasting" the troops but with the goal of making them perform some hard soldiering, then it'll be seen differently.

For example, if you keep the troops awake all night sitting on their kit, doing nothing when they could be sleeping, that is just cock. They *will* get demotivated and pissed off. If the exercise requires reccees to be deployed all night, and the troops are awake because of that, its different and will be seen differently.


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## SupersonicMax (20 Dec 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your guy is the "able but unwilling" kind....*
> 
> 1- Interview him directly. Face to face, nothing less. Ask him why he isnt showing interest in participating. The problem could be personal or it could be anything, listen closely, dont go in with the "show up or your out" mentality from the outset.
> 
> ...



+1

Don't jump to conclusions and don't take any formal measures before you talk to him 1v1 and LISTEN to what he has to say.  The non-formal way is often only what's required and will avoid hassle on both part.  If the problem persists, then by all mean, go with formal measures.


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## brihard (20 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Brihard, are you guys down to one Thursday a month or is you're training calendar pretty much unaffected? And ya the lack of training on work up seemed almost criminal.



We're stood down fully until January 21st. We had a basic winter warfare ex planned for the weekend of the 22nd to the 24th, but that's up in the air. After Jan 21st the word right from the CO is 'We have money to parade', but admin nights look to be cut, and I'm not optimistic about exercises.  I've yet to hear whether the 33CBG EX Raging Wolf is still a go; last I heard that's what we've been training towards and that's where the intent is do life fire section and platoon stuff. As always, Raging Wolf will be hurt by the fact that so many of us are university and college students, and the ex is scheduled for the high school break.

No word yet on what the new FY will bring, but of course OP Cadence is on the radar, and it's already been announced that there will be no courses in June as a result of that... I'm already cautiously lining myself up for different full time work in the summer if all we've got is July/August and a week or two contract for OP Cadence.

On a side note, do you guys ever go out to Farnham? If not, put a word up to have it looked into- they've got a handful of permanent FOBs and a bunch of different sites set up throughout the training area; refugee camps with parked trucks, tents and wire, a handful of bunkers, huts out in the woods, things like that. We had some great recces there a month back. It's a small training area, but there's a lot out there, and the permanent camps and stuff out there lend themselves well to different tactical scenarios.

Anyway, sorry for the sidetrack.


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