# curious about the C5



## Shrek1985 (25 Mar 2009)

Hi, I'm looking to pester some of the Old-Timers on here about the C5 machineguns.

I'm having a real hard time finding many pictures of them online, but mainly i'm looking to know how the infantry used them and what they were like. I've heard some stories about holding the barrels with thick gloves, using improvised slings and firing from the hip as is, in the GPMG role, but the only pics i've found look more like it was just used as a medium machinegun.

I have found a few contradictory and very light sources. some say we used the american M1919A6 bipod and buttstocks, others make no mention and of course, no pics. Did we use a heavy (A4?) or lighter (A6) barrel? Did we vary it for the role? 

What was the cyclic rate like with the 7.62x51mm NATO ammo? being a recoil-operated design, I should think it would be different than for the old .30-06 calibre M1919A4s.


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## dangerboy (25 Mar 2009)

When I used it I was part of a 2 man team, i carried the tripod and ammo and the gunner carried the actual weapon.  When we had to fire it the weapons det commander would tell us where he wanted the gun I would sprint to the location set up the tripod and the gunner would put it on. As for nomenclature I can not remember numbers just C5 GPMG.


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## tango22a (25 Mar 2009)

AFAIK the model was m1919a4. There was a rumour floating around that these were originally US Navy designed weapons. Being Armoured I rarely fired them from a tripod, only from a veh mount or on co-ax mount  on a Cougar. You have to understand its been over 20 years since I fired one, but I seem to remember that the rate of fire was 550/650 rpm. And yes there was an asbestos glove for barrel changes and of course a head-space and timing gauge to keep the beast firing. All I can remember was pouring motor oil into an OPEN hot gun to keep it firing. Hope I've been of some help! Any other questions will have to be answered by someone else.

Cheers,

tango22a


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## 1feral1 (25 Mar 2009)

Canadian C1 and later C5 GPMGs were Browning (Wartime) Infantry M1919A4 MGs, originally USA manufactured by various companies to 1945. One I remember was Borderline Industries, and of course GM. Conversion was done at Long Branch in Kitchener Ontario.

I have no idea where the parts were manufacted, or the barrels, but the barrels were covered in Cdn proofs, so LB may have made these, along with the specific conversion parts.

During the Cold War (1960s-early 70s), the Cdn's converted the guns to 7.62 x 51mm NATO from US .30 (7.62 x 63mm) AKA .30-06. As seen in the 1969 movie Kelly's Hero's, humped by Don Rickles  :nod:

The noticeable difference was the Cdn 'T bar' cocking handle. The gun fired from a closed bolt and there was no safety bar as on the Aust and UK L3A3/A4 MGs. These L series guns remained in .30, but a safety bar and open bolt firing mods were added.

The original .30 could use cloth belts or .30 metalic link (similar in style to .303 link for aircraft Browning .303s - these guns were even made by Inglis of Toronto), the new gun used the new 7.62mm metalic link.

Both standard US .30 tripods and grey metal butt stocks were used, but I had never seen any bi-pods.

Tripods the Aussie system were always wartime dated, and some even pre-war. These were later honed and converted with an adapter for the 5.56mm F89A1-P LSW Minimi, adn are currently in the system. Its freaky to see a tripod with a data plate dated 1940! Thats almost 70 yrs in the system!

The Canadian conversion was not the best design (IMHO), and turned the once 110% reliable .30 gun into a tempermental 7.62mm nightmare, but once it got going, it was known to hum. South Africa also toyed with the 7.62 x 51mm conversion. Seen these in Australia as trials, and they were later sent to smelt.

Only the heavier barrel design was used. The .30 light type barrels were for originally aircraft use and the A6 role. ROF was higher with the lighter barrel.

After the 7.62mm conversion, .30 parts were sold to Australia. I later seen many 'C broad arrow' post war packaging on various parts (NSN 21 designators) when I was on the conversion project from M1919A4 to L3A3/A4 (fixed/flex) MGs.

Quantiities of L3A3/A4 .30 guns remain in the Australian system. Its only been recently they were removed from front line service, seeing plenty of time in Timor L'Este from 1999. The last big Australian .30 ball ammo buy was Privi-Partizan out of the FRY.  The guns now are in LTS in western Sydney, pending disposal.

The Cdn gun had no issue sling, but a rifle sling off the FN C1 was placed on the barrel jacket, and on the tube of the pistol grip. Yes and remember there was NO safety. The gun could then be slung via the hip.

The ROF was about the same as the original .30 calibre. Recoil operated w/gas booster/assist, using the flash suppressor or the standard muzzle attachment as the gas booster.

The USN dabbled in the 7.62mm converted gun also, fitting it with a freaky prong type flash suppressor, and calling it the Mk21 Mod O 7.62mm MG (if I remember right). The Cdn conversion was basically done to come in line with the NATO cartridge. IMHO, they should have stuck with the original calibre like the English and Aussies did. However, the Aussies and English were NOT using this gun in an infantry role (only armoured), so there is some method to the madness of the conversion. 

OWDU


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

OWDU,

Great explanation....many thanks.

NS


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## BinRat55 (27 Mar 2009)

OWDU - wow. That was like, right outta Janes!! I know nothing of the "C5" other that I thought it was a knife we tied to our webbing!! Sounds eerily like a C6 though?


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

Shamelessly stolen from another forum:



> I had the 1919 out on the weekend for Shilos Battle of the Bulge, and during the first match the gun worked fairly flawlessly. My team finished in 6 minutes, and I had one round left in the chamber and 4 rounds on the belt, out of a belt of 250 rounds. That 6 minutes included running up to the start point, waiting for my sniper to countersnipe the opening target (1 minute), clear the first lane, move to the second lane through the obstacle course, reset up the gun, and continue firing. So 245 rounds in that amount of time was pretty good. (This is why gunasaurus fears this gun so much.  )
> 
> But the second match was not so good. I couldn't even get the gun to accept a round initially, and then when it would shoot, it was sporadic, with lots of jams. I tried opening up the headspace using my trusty Enfield bayonet, but alas, too little too late and the match was lost, and we had to settle for second place. During a bit of fun shooting afterwards, a ruptured case ended the day.
> 
> ...


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

> In the next photo is the handle in the retracted and locked open position. This is kind of handy for range use.


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## aesop081 (27 Mar 2009)

Shrek1985 said:
			
		

> I've heard some stories about holding the barrels with thick gloves,



The gloves were used to change the barrel after firing since it was so bloody hot.


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## Shrek1985 (27 Mar 2009)

WOW

OWDU that was bang on the money, just was I was looking for. Many thanks.

Had no idea the aussies kept a .30-cal gun in service for so long against standardization. Haha, we couldn't even keep two different gas regulators in the system for the C6, but thats a different story isn't it? Gotta wonder why the Austrialians made the effort though? Or contrariwise, did not make the effort.

Too bad we never do the fun shoots some of the older guys talk about, anymore. With old and exotic weapons.


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## 1feral1 (27 Mar 2009)

I know the guy who owns that gun! Small world. As of last year, he has both 7.92mm, and 7.62mm barrels and is searching for the .30 barrel ( or vice versa, can't remember if he has the .30 looking for the 7.62mm  ;D. Its not a CA, its factory SA, and not restricted.

That Battle of the Bulge shoot is sponsored by Wolverine of Virden, and has been conducted at CFB Shilo.


Cheers,

Wes


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

Wes,

It's a small world....I've not met him personally, but we've bantered across the web a bit.

I'm borrowing someone's C-5 bolt to take some measurements and study it's function for a bit.

Have you seen the mini .30's that Lakeside guns makes?  Ever consider a 2/3 scale FN-Mag?  With the barrel extending to the rear of the feed ramp, and using the 1919 style feed mech (closed bolt semi only) it would be an 18.5" barrel, and with .22 rimfire, there would be no mag/belt limit.

That's one of my projects that's on the semi-side burner....I have to get a couple of other ones clear of the work-bench first.  My son's 1/5 scale Tiger 1 ride-in toy is first....


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## 1feral1 (27 Mar 2009)

Classic tank mate!

He has a vast superior collection, really has his heart into it, is a wealth of knowledge, and a wife who supports him to the fullest too. He and his Missus hope to make it out here in the next year or two.

I've known him for over 20 years, and I really enjoyed my visit with him again in Aug 08.

Ya, seen the mini .30 in SAR, and on the web.

My claim to .30 fame is I have a 1/6 metal miniture, with metal rds and link, with an opening feed cover, and moving bolt. Sights come up, etc, even a min metal ammo tin. Yes with tripod and T&E mech.

Here is a few pics of the M1919A4, and the M2 HB .50. The M2 is plastic, but the detail is excellent. The M4 Sherman is a Franklin Mint in 1/24.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (27 Mar 2009)

Here is the M2 HB, again 1/6 scale. Great little conversation piece, and both MGs are the closet I'll ever come to owning one, ha!

Cheers,

WEs


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

I have the belt-fed bug ever since I had these two beauties built:











Both are really just dressed up .22 rifles, but now that I'm setup for a proper machine shop (Bench mill that weighs 800 lbs and a 10"x4.5' lathe) I'm able to progess what I'd like in my own time.

Oh, and, it'd be of interest to you, I just saved another FN from oblivion.  I'm one of the 12(5) owners here, and last fall at CFSAC, I arranged to save a FNC1A1 from the welder/wall-hanger, and just this week I picked up the Lithgow L1A1 from another gent who was heading that direction.

Means I now have a complete set of the Inch pattern FAL's....Brit, Aus, and Can.  Along with the "other pattern" 1A1 from India....it's mostly Inch pattern.

NS


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## kkwd (27 Mar 2009)

Here is a link to the  Cougar Pam that includes the C5 in depth in chapter 11.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

Still got my headspace & timing gauge around here on a key ring somewhere. ;D In a pinch a nickle and dime sufficed quite adequately.


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## kkwd (27 Mar 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Still got my headspace & timing gauge around here on a key ring somewhere. ;D In a pinch a nickle and dime sufficed quite adequately.



Oh my god!!! You are probably one of those guys who conducted meatball surgery on the trigger bar.


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Still got my headspace & timing gauge around here on a key ring somewhere. ;D In a pinch a nickle and dime sufficed quite adequately.



Someone gave me a set of 'em too the other year, figured I might know what they were....makes a nice accessory for the mini-1917.  I'm going to make a little spot in the transit chest I'm building for it.

NS


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

kkwd said:
			
		

> Oh my god!!! You are probably one of those guys who conducted meatball surgery on the trigger bar.



It wasn't meatball surgery. It was finessing the fire control system 8)


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## Danjanou (27 Mar 2009)

Can’t add much more from my addled memory than has already been said by our resident gun plumber, aside from the G pig was heavy and awkward to carry and a royal bitch to do head spacing and timing on after a “quick” barrel change. At least the C1 was the revamped C5 was slightly easier in that regard but I may be wrong. I did my Machine Gunners course in 1980-1981 and probably the last time I ever used one of these was on my 6B in 1984.

Anyway dug around on my hard drive and raided a few friends collections on crackbook for a little pigporn. In a couple you can clearly see the C1 sling being used.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

Couldn't find any pigporn, but found one of my first summer concentration 8)


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## kkwd (27 Mar 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Can’t add much more from my addled memory than has already been said by our resident gun plumber, aside from the G pig was heavy and awkward to carry and a royal bitch to do head spacing and timing on after a “quick” barrel change. At least the C1 was the revamped C5 was slightly easier in that regard but I may be wrong. I did my Machine Gunners course in 1980-1981 and probably the last time I ever used one of these was on my 6B in 1984.
> 
> Anyway dug around on my hard drive and raided a few friends collections on crackbook for a little pigporn. In a couple you can clearly see the C1 sling being used.



In the bottom picture you can see the carrying handle attached to the gun. In the first picture who is the Dirk Diggler looking character with all the hair between the two guys with the cigarettes?  ;D


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## NavyShooter (27 Mar 2009)

Deuce Bigalow?

(Attempt at humor....he looks like a submariner I once knew.)

NS


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## Danjanou (27 Mar 2009)

Recce I thought this was your first Milcon?






Kkwd you gonna pic on a guy just because he didn't smoke back then? 8)


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## kkwd (27 Mar 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Recce I thougth this was your first Milcon?
> 
> Kkwd you gonna pic on a guy just because he didn't smoke back then? 8)



You didn't need to smoke in the old days, the Monger supplied enough second hand smoke for everybody. ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Recce I thougth this was your first Milcon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now that you mention it. Seem to recall a water boy, Gunga something or other, IIRC :warstory:


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## Danjanou (27 Mar 2009)

Recce stop calling Tess a water boy. You'll notice he's absent from the parade as usual. ;D

KK you had to mention the monger didn't you. There's years of therapy and self medication out the window. At least he never bummed off of everyone including non smoker naive CFA transfer ins like old DW did. 8)


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## kkwd (27 Mar 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> KK you had to mention the monger didn't you. There's years of therapy and self medication out the window. At least he never bummed off of everyone including non smoker naive CFA transfer ins like old DW did. 8)


A pint of Watney's does not constitute self medication.  ;D Poor old DW, with those horrible rug rats he needed all the help he could get.


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## 1feral1 (17 Apr 2009)

I took these pics in Nov 2004 in Singleton NSW.

The .30 L3A3/A4 was still in service. Note the T-50 turret configuation with M2HB .50 MG.

Cheers,

OWDU


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## 1feral1 (17 Apr 2009)

More pics....


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## Shrek1985 (18 Apr 2009)

Wow OWDU and still in the original calibre? Most impressive, perhaps the old 30-cal has a bit greater advantage over the 7.62x51mm NATO than just a slightly heavier bullet?

I'm impressed! We got stuff here on the C5, L3 series and original M1919A4. All I was hoping for was some info on the C5. If we could dig up a South African vet to talk about the MG4...on second thought I just realized how many local variations there are on the Browning .30-cal so maybe that way lies madness.

...Though I have always wondered if the MG4 actually has a quick-change barrel as some sources say. What the heck, I always was a little crazy.


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