# RFT abolished?



## Gary D. in SK

I have no intentions of being in Remedial Fitness Training and thus this should not affect me personally, (for those keeping track, I have changed my application from RES to REG), but I thought it interesting and worthy of further discussion in that during my interview my interviewer did mention that RFT was being abolished. 

Does anyone have information on this or can confirm it.  It would be for those looking to enroll and searching/reading old threads here to be made aware of this if it is in fact the case.


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## jp86

It's been about six months since we saw the CFLRS Week 0 requirements go up.  If they're abolishing RFT/WFT now, I guess it didn't help much.


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## JBoyd

I believe that there are a few threads discussing the change of RFT to WFT. From my understanding, there is now a minimum standard to meet to be sent to WFT, if you do not meet it you are RTM'ed. I do not believe the standards have been officially shared on the site, but a recruiter would most likely be the best person to direct any questions to.


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## stefwills

Yes, RFT is now WFT. There ARE certain minimums to make WFT now, and if you don't meet them, you go home


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## Pelorus

...and I'm sure in another six months or so the standards will change again and they'll be accompanied by a nice new name for something that's essentially the same.


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## Quartermaster

OK troops, let's kill the rumour mill.

Firstly, RFT stood for "Recruit Fitness Training" and was changed to "Warrior Fitness Training" to avoid the exact mistake that was made above (reference "remedial") as well as try to engender a sense that the students of that organization are training to become warriors, not recruits.  It does indeed still exist and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.  

The other new item is the Threshold Fitness Test which rolls out as follows:

Candidates under 35 years of age must achieve:

A minimum for 2 push-ups for women, 4 for men; and

A minimum of 2.5 on the VO2 Max for women, 3.5 for men.

If this is not achieved, then they are released from the CF.  These standards are not applied to candidates over 35 years of age.  Separate standards will be developed for those students once there is enough empirical data collected.

To get to a training platoon, Candidates must achieve the minimum acceptable VO2 Max as per the CF Expres standard (4 for women, 6 for men) and pass 2 of the 3 strength tests, with the added standard of the minimum 2 and 4 push ups for women and men respectively.

All candidates who fall between these two standards are referred to WFT and will be transferred to a training platoon when they have developed their fitness to a level where it is expected that they will be successful in passing the CF Expres test under platoon training conditions.  That translates to: a candidate will have to pass the CF Expres test as a member of a training platoon even if they have already done so as a member of the WFT. This is due to the fact that the CF Expres is part of a Performance Objective, not a annual fitness test as it is applied to the rest of the CF once they are trained members.


Hope this helps clear up some confusion.


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## armyvern

Quartermaster said:
			
		

> translates to: a candidate will have to pass the CF Expres test as a member of a training platoon even if they have already done so as a member of the WFT. This is due to the fact that *the CF Expres is part of a Performance Objective, not a annual fitness test * as it is applied to the rest of the CF once they are trained members.
> Hope this helps clear up some confusion.


Well, it leaves me with a wee little question ...

On other courses, it is possible to fail a PO (repeatedly) and not pass it at all as it's "just a PO", but still pass the course. IE: candidates may fail a max of 2 POs, but still pass a course ...

Does that mean that - now that it's "only a PO" - someone on BMQ can actually graduate without ever having successfully "passed" the PO which is the CF Fitness Test?


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## Gary D. in SK

Thanks for setting things straight Quartermaster


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## Quartermaster

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, it leaves me with a wee little question ...
> 
> On other courses, it is possible to fail a PO (repeatedly) and not pass it at all as it's "just a PO", but still pass the course. IE: candidates may fail a max of 2 POs, but still pass a course ...
> 
> Does that mean that - now that it's "only a PO" - someone on BMQ can actually graduate without ever having successfully "passed" the PO which is the CF Fitness Test?



Vern,
I wish I could say "never" but that would be unrealistic.  It would be very rare that this would happen and could only occur under very specific circumstances.  The fact that is is a PO is no change from the past, so overall this policy is a huge improvement IMO.


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## X-mo-1979

So Quartermaster what your saying is the min requirement to remain at St.Jean in 4 push ups instead of before it was zero correct?

Hopefully these standards become a norm filling our army with these people,then I can be an elite soldier without ever having to work out!

I'm sorry to the tax payers; paying for these people to make a nice living.I'm honestly ashamed.


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## chevalnoir

As "one of those" people, I can't stop myself from answering on this one. I spent some time on RFT after finishing BMQ because I had problems with pushups. I passed every other PO on  my first try, but the pushups continue to be a struggle. I keep working away at 'em. I don't think I will ever be good at them, or that they will ever be effortless for me. You know what - everybody is good at some things, and struggles with others.  That's why the CF focus on working as a team is so effective - we all bring something to the table, and one person's strong points can balance another person's weak areas.

On my Basic platoon, some of the very first people to VR were young, fit, strong guys. You can improve fitness if you work at it, mental toughness and drive is a lot harder to get if it's not there to start with.

I am not here for a meal ticket. I'd quit tomorrow if I thought I had nothing to offer to the CF. But so far, my staff wherever I've been has seemed to feel that I have enough to offer to make it worth their while to help me deal with my strength and fitness issues, so I think I'll continue to trust their judgement and give it 100%.

A huge thank you to the staff, both military and civilian, who make WFT (RFT when I was on it) work. They are some of the finest people I have ever had the priviledge of being around, and I've learned a lot more from them than how to work on fitness. There are a lot of people who have been on RFT you wouldn't be able to pick out of  a crowd by their physical appearance or their fitness level now, but you might notice their work ethic, dedication, and willingness to help anyone out who needs it.

Please don't slag this program  - it works.


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## PMedMoe

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> So Quartermaster what your saying is the min requirement to remain at St.Jean in 4 push ups instead of before it was zero correct?
> 
> Hopefully these standards become a norm filling our army with these people,then I can be an elite soldier without ever having to work out!
> 
> I'm sorry to the tax payers; paying for these people to make a nice living.I'm honestly ashamed.



I've said it before and I'll say it again.  You can take someone who's not in shape and get them there but you can't make stupid smart.   Yes, I think they should be in shape before they get to BMQ, but I'm sure situations occur where someone needs a little help.


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## Quartermaster

chevalnoir said:
			
		

> As "one of those" people, I can't stop myself from answering on this one. I spent some time on RFT after finishing BMQ because I had problems with pushups. I passed every other PO on  my first try, but the pushups continue to be a struggle. I keep working away at 'em. I don't think I will ever be good at them, or that they will ever be effortless for me. You know what - everybody is good at some things, and struggles with others.  That's why the CF focus on working as a team is so effective - we all bring something to the table, and one person's strong points can balance another person's weak areas.
> 
> On my Basic platoon, some of the very first people to VR were young, fit, strong guys. You can improve fitness if you work at it, mental toughness and drive is a lot harder to get if it's not there to start with.
> 
> I am not here for a meal ticket. I'd quit tomorrow if I thought I had nothing to offer to the CF. But so far, my staff wherever I've been has seemed to feel that I have enough to offer to make it worth their while to help me deal with my strength and fitness issues, so I think I'll continue to trust their judgement and give it 100%.
> 
> A huge thank you to the staff, both military and civilian, who make WFT (RFT when I was on it) work. They are some of the finest people I have ever had the priviledge of being around, and I've learned a lot more from them than how to work on fitness. There are a lot of people who have been on RFT you wouldn't be able to pick out of  a crowd by their physical appearance or their fitness level now, but you might notice their work ethic, dedication, and willingness to help anyone out who needs it.
> 
> Please don't slag this program  - it works.



Nicely said.

EDIT:  I passed this text along to the commander of the orgainzation that is responsible for WFT.  I hope you don't mind.


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## JordanB

They should never get rid of RFT. RFT is the best program that the Canadian Forces has to offer.
After spending my first few weeks in the CF there, I have to agree that most anyone who makes it through RFT is probably in better shape then those who passed their express test first time through.


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## Pea

I agree that we should be fit & ready when we enter the CF, just like you need to be ready for most jobs on civi street when you start work there. However, I'll admit I wasn't ready when I showed up for BMQ. I thought I was, but I was obviously mistaken. After a cycle on RFT my fitness was well above where it was required to be, and I'll never allow myself to be unprepared again. I'm very appreciative to the CF for helping me by giving me that swift kick in the ass I needed when it comes to fitness. I'm also very grateful to have had that second chance, as I truly enjoy my career as a Med Tech now. 

I've met a lot of good troops who spent time on RFT either before Basic, or at the end of their course when they failed their pushups. I think the CF would truly have lost out if they had given them (us) all the boot due to a few pushups, etc. I have to agree with PMedMoe about the whole "you can't make stupid smart", but you can get someone fit. I'm thankful they felt I was worth spending a few extra dollars on at the time.


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## mariomike

MediPea said:
			
		

> I'm thankful they felt I was worth spending a few extra dollars on at the time.



Sounds like the government got a good return on their investment!


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## aesop081

JordanB said:
			
		

> RFT is the best program that the Canadian Forces has to offer.



You know that theres is more to the CF than what you see at CFLRS right ?


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## lpfan55

I Personally believe RFT was one of the wisest decisions that the CF made. I trained (so I thought) for the Canadian forces before hand. I went to St-Jean full of eagerness to become a soldier. I got to the base and my first week was hell. I couldn't even take my kit up the stairs. I thought that was the toughest week of my life. That Thursday we had our CF Expres, I weighed in at somewhere around 330, 5'11". I first got a 1.5 on the shuttle run, 8 situps, and 1 push up, and 80 lb handgrip (give or take). I was immediately enrolled in Recruit Fitness Training. I was mortified. Our new Staff members gave us the "time to wake up" speech. When it came to things like Forced Marches, Runs, or anything that included any type of cardio, I was dead last, gasping for air. I spent 7 months in RFT training, training training. In the end I was released, unable to still pass the CF Expres. However, my scores this time were infinitely better. 28 situps, 6 or 7 pushups (still working on those ) 4.5 on the shuttle run and 100 or so handgrip. Now I'm not trying to toot my ownhorn here. I'm just saying, I am a perfect example of why this program "do" work (any past RFT-ers?). It is like I read previously in this thread, You can't make stupid smart. 

However, the program it's self, instills all of the military qualities instilled by course staff in CFLRS. The WFT staff are the best group of individuals you could ever have the honour of working with. They are there when you need it, and they know when you need the help.

If anyone has any questions they want to ask me, I'm very open to talking about this.


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## Eye In The Sky

lpfan55 said:
			
		

> I Personally believe RFT was one of the wisest decisions that the CF made. I trained (so I thought) for the Canadian forces before hand. I went to St-Jean full of eagerness to become a soldier. I got to the base and my first week was hell. I couldn't even take my kit up the stairs. I thought that was the toughest week of my life. That Thursday we had our CF Expres, I weighed in at somewhere around 330, 5'11". I first got a 1.5 on the shuttle run, 8 situps, and 1 push up, and 80 lb handgrip (give or take). I was immediately enrolled in Recruit Fitness Training. I was mortified. Our new Staff members gave us the "time to wake up" speech. When it came to things like Forced Marches, Runs, or anything that included any type of cardio, I was dead last, gasping for air. I spent 7 months in RFT training, training training. In the end I was released, unable to still pass the CF Expres. However, my scores this time were infinitely better. 28 situps, 6 or 7 pushups (still working on those ) 4.5 on the shuttle run and 100 or so handgrip. Now I'm not trying to toot my ownhorn here. I'm just saying, I am a perfect example of why this program "do" work (any past RFT-ers?). It is like I read previously in this thread, You can't make stupid smart.
> 
> However, the program it's self, instills all of the military qualities instilled by course staff in CFLRS. The WFT staff are the best group of individuals you could ever have the honour of working with. They are there when you need it, and they know when you need the help.
> 
> If anyone has any questions they want to ask me, I'm very open to talking about this.



After reading your post, I can't help but look for the indication that this program worked for the CF.  Sure, you increased your PT level (to a level STILL well below the MINIMUM pass for the EXPRES test, which is low in itself IMO) but, after being released after 7 MONTHS on RFT, how in the h-e-double hockey sticks are you an example of RFT being a good plan for CFRLS and/or the CF??

Not to sound like a personal attack, but your story is one, to me, that shows the elimination of PT testing PRIOR to being enrolled was an unwise decision and that RFT did not (in your case) produce the desired results.

In any event, I guess to say something positive here, I am glad you stuck it out for that long.  Atleast you didn't quit.


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## blacktriangle

I know a few people that went through RFT, and most of them are still fat as anything...

Obviously it is different for everyone, but I think that while these people may improve fitness to start with, they lose it once they hit their first posting as they revert to a lazy way of life. 

I joined at 16 years old and spent nearly a year before that busting my ass to get into shape. I doubled the standards. Put six months of effort in and maybe you guys reading this, thinking of joining, can at least MEET the "standard"...


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## lpfan55

I totally agree with you about the threshhold test, last I heard they put one in just as I left. I was just stating I personally think it was a good decision for the CF because it has opened doors. I do not think they are going to totally remove the program, however. I was 1 in a very large ratio of Pass:fail after a term. I am totally happy I was on the program, because it has given me the tools to fix what needs to be fixed and get my *** back into the CF. 

And to Eye: How are you sure those weren't desired results? Put it this way, I went from incredibly morbidly obese to a positionin which i can now get my self to a suitable level for the CF. If it can do that for me, imagine what it does for people that are >this< close to passing?


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## lpfan55

Their job most definately is to produce recruits suitable for the Canadian Forces, which in this case, includes getting some recruits into physical fitness standards level.  It is a team effort, that includes all of the staff, not just platoon staff, and not just RFT staff. I am an exceptional case, people being released doesn't happen often, I already stated that. I do however see where you are coming from. And after being there, I wouldnt recommend anyone goes until they are in a proper physical capacity to pass the CF Expres.


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## PMedMoe

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I know a few people that went through RFT, and most of them are still fat as anything...



I know a few people that went through (insert applicable course here), and most of them are still stupid as anything...

Works both ways, people.  As I said, you can get a person fit but you can't make stupid smart.

The post from lpfan55 is *not* a good example of how beneficial RFT is.  I could care less how much he improved his fitness level because in the end, he was still released.  MediPea is a *much* better example.  Of course, with the new "minimum" standard that one must meet at the start of BMQ, lpfan55 would not have even made it to RFT.  On that note, why can't they get the "minimum" testing done at the CFRC?

To tell you the truth, I'm shocked that at 5'11" and 330 lbs, lpfan55 even made it past the medical at CFRC.  (Please accept an apology in advance as I am not picking on you personally, more so on the staff at the CFRC).


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## Jorkapp

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I know a few people that went through (insert applicable course here), and most of them are still stupid as anything...
> 
> Works both ways, people.  As I said, you can get a person fit but you can't make stupid smart.
> 
> The post from lpfan55 is *not* a good example of how beneficial RFT is.  I could care less how much he improved his fitness level because in the end, he was still released.  MediPea is a *much* better example.  Of course, with the new "minimum" standard that one must meet at the start of BMQ, lpfan55 would not have even made it to RFT.  On that note, why can't they get the "minimum" testing done at the CFRC?
> 
> To tell you the truth, I'm shocked that at 5'11" and 330 lbs, lpfan55 even made it past the medical at CFRC.  (Please accept an apology in advance as I am not picking on you personally, more so on the staff at the CFRC).



Moe,

RFT saved me from getting booted after my first year because I was irresponsible and lazy during university, and I sure learned my lesson. I haven't failed a PT test since.

I agree with some of what you're saying. I definitely think we should implement the minimum testing at CFRC to avoid the expense of sending these people out to St-Jean only to get sent home. Economy is everything, and at least taking that measure can cut some losses. 

[RANT]

However; 

One could argue that perhaps it was uneconomical to send lpfan55 to St-Jean for his tenure at RFT only to get released. Yes, it was one more adding to the pass:fail ratio, but that's not necessarily a bad thing all the time. As many have told me, CF is all about attitude. Definitely lpfan55 wants to be in the CF bad enough that he's going to do whatever it takes to get there. No, he might not have been so lucky the first time around, but now he's got the tools to make things right the second time around. 

What happens when someone like lpfan55 stays the course, gets back in, passes their courses, and becomes an effective soldier? I would say that the first tenure was then quite economical. He's now got the tools to keep an effective fitness level throughout his career, and I'm sure he'll have learned his lesson.

As far as I'm concerned, even if someone does a tenure in RFT and doesn't come back for whatever reason, at least there is a chance they will take fitness seriously in their civilian life, and given the obesity epidemic in Canada, that might very well at least be a good thing for Canadian society. Perhaps not as economical for the military, but at least it keeps them out of the healthcare system... hopefully.

I think putting a dollar value on personnel is just not a good idea at all. How many MNVG's/Leo 2's/CF-18's is anyone on this board worth? Big deal, equipment is great, but pretty darned useless if there's no one to make use of it. We need people, and if that means giving a certain bracket of society at least a chance, so be it.

[/RANT]


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## Pat_Y

If you can’t pass the express test then I am not sure why we should send anyone for BMQ? I thought that was the whole point of the express test to see if you could make it in BMQ.

They should make a program that you can follow well at home and to that extent not on tax payer’s dime. Something that can help you get in shape and be able to pass the minimums on the express test.

Personally for everyone reading this if you can’t pass the minimums I don’t see why you would continue on. Take 6 months off and hit the gym. I am not trying to be mean here but come on …  

And I have to agree with PMedMoe get the testing done at the CFRC.

And AEC we have the people who can make use of it. Also I am all for allowing that certain "bracket" the opportunity but I would like a hardened effort (get in shape so you can at least make the minimums)on their part if this really is what they feel they want to do.


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## King Elessar

so by your standards Infanteer, people who get hurt during BMQ should also get released. oh no, people have to sit on PAT for 8 months while they get healed up, they're a drag on our military and the money spent on them would be better used on equipment [/end sarcasm]

do you know how many people on PAT at CFLRS are only there to abuse the system and get a free paycheck twice a month? more than i can count.

i did my time on RFT, and it greatly improved my fitness levels. it helped me get through BMQ both mentally and physically. i've never regretted being on RFT, and anyone who bad mouths RFT gets an earful from me.

most of the friends i have in the Armed Forces i met while on RFT, both NCM's and Officers. not one person while i was on RFT didn't bust their ass to pass that test, lpfan55 included.


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## aesop081

> As far as I'm concerned, even if someone does a tenure in RFT and doesn't come back for whatever reason, at least there is a chance they will take fitness seriously in their civilian life, and given the obesity epidemic in Canada, that might very well at least be a good thing for Canadian society. Perhaps not as economical for the military, but at least it keeps them out of the healthcare system... hopefully.





The CF are not a federaly-funded Jenny Craig program :



> and anyone who bad mouths RFT gets an earful from me.



Please come to my office and try that.......


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## Pat_Y

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The CF are not a federaly-funded Jenny Craig program :



I think that is the best way to put it!


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## lpfan55

I'm actually very happy there are some people out there that understood what I was trying to say. And you know what? I'd make a safe bet that some of the personnel now that have passed RFT and are now in the CF could kick even some of the butts of people who doubt the program's effectiveness. I appreciate the feedback but I'm finished with this thread if it's just going to attacks on something that Has made me who I am for the better. And anyone who thinks that people are just statistics, or funds exploited, or a waste, hang your head and be ashamed of yourselves. Sometimes these people work harder than you know.  If there is anyone who wants to have a civilized conversation about this and can look at both sides instead of their own side, please feel free to message me. :2c: 


-Lpfan55


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## King Elessar

> Please come to my office and try that.......



i have no problems doing it when i'm in the right.


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## Pat_Y

Ipfan I have no reason you doubt you or slander you in anyway.
I would love to have a civilized convo but I would just like to say that; a way to make sure that if people are going into this program that they continue on staying in shape and stay with the CF


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## aesop081

King Elessar said:
			
		

> i have no problems doing it when i'm in the right.



Right or not, i doubt you would give me an earful about anything. Check your profile and compare it to mine if you are wondering why.


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## lpfan55

Pat, I would love to give you a statistic on the rates of leaving vs going but i dont have one ;D so all i have to say is that in seven months the only person i ever saw leave was me due to not passing CF expres ;D


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## aesop081

lpfan55 said:
			
		

> Pat, I would love to give you a statistic on the rates of leaving vs going but i dont have one ;D so all i have to say is that in seven months the only person i ever saw leave was me due to not passing CF expres ;D



lpfan, 

I have a question for you. The stated CF policy for RFT is that one is to be tested after 30 days, 60 days ( if required) and 90 days (if required). After 90 days, if the member cannot pass, he/she is to be released. How could you have been there 7 months ?


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## King Elessar

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Right or not, i doubt you would give me an earful about anything. Check your profile and compare it to mine if you are wondering why.



ahhh the old pull rank. is this where i go " yes Sgt, no Sgt, sorry Sgt"?

doesn't matter what rank you are, harrasment is a no-no, and it's unbecoming of a soldier to belittle a group of people because they can't pass the fitness test. some example we set. "sorry you're too fat to join, so piss off!"


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## Kat Stevens

Pat_Y said:
			
		

> Ipfan I have no reason you doubt you or slander you in anyway.
> I would love to have a civilized convo but I would just like to say that; a way to make sure that if people are going into this program that they continue on staying in shape and stay with the CF



Is this based on your wealth of military fitness experience, or just an opinion?  You'd probably find that people who've been to the farm are less likely to let themselves go than those who never got singled out for a lack of fitness.


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## aesop081

King Elessar said:
			
		

> ahhh the old pull rank. is this where i go " yes Sgt, no Sgt, sorry Sgt"?



Of course not. If you want to have a frank discussion, thats fine by me. That being said, this is the CF and i would not accept an "earful" from you. If you have a problem with the CF rank structure and the proper way to adress senior ranks, you have the ability to seek other employment......or experience the CF justice system ....in case you ever decide to give the wrong person an "earfull".



> doesn't matter what rank you are, harrasment is a no-no, and it's unbecoming of a soldier to belittle a group of people because they can't pass the fitness test. some example we set. "sorry you're too fat to join, so piss off!"



I have done no such thing....ever. I disagree with the RFT program, that is all i said. We have standards for a reason and those standards must be maintained. One of those standards is the expres test. You cant pass, i dont belittle anyone, i follow the established process to put the member on remedial and to have him/her retested and , if required, released.


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## Pat_Y

Kat: I am happy to hear that but, as I have never been to CFLRS I can not comment on the percentages of those who stay in shape or do not. My opinion is based on both with more so of a common sense theme.

But in that case I guess a persons own personal views mixed with lack of hard facts can result in the lack of understanding someone else’s opinion.

And all I want to know is that if these men and women are going into this program that they are seeing results and that they are not just taking the system for a "joy ride" per say.


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## X-mo-1979

What are your guys plans when you have to feed yourselves,life gets stressful,and PT is something you have to squeeze into your lives by using precious time after supper instead of with your families?

What really scares me is what happens when you leave a very structured way of life and back into a unit.

Do you think active units have special time to work with you alone?
As well I asked this in another post however none of you would answer.So I'll try here.

The post is the last one in this thread.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/80513/post-841769.html#msg841769

p.s Pulling rank on a internet forum is lame.Very.


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## Pat_Y

Well I think you hit the nail right on the head X-mo

Anyone else before posting I would you suggest you read the other thread.


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## King Elessar

> Of course not. If you want to have a frank discussion, thats fine by me. That being said, this is the CF and i would not accept an "earful" from you. If you have a problem with the CF rank structure and the proper way to adress senior ranks, you have the ability to seek other employment......or experience the CF justice system ....in case you ever decide to give the wrong person an "earfull".



i have no problem with the rank structure, i know how to address superiors properly. just ask the Sgt that sits next to me, he thought it was funny that you actually pulled rank on me on the internet. but if you think you can say what you want because you're a higher rank than me, if it offends me, i will let you know, and i will follow proper procedures and rank structure to make sure it doesn't happen again.



> I have done no such thing....ever. I disagree with the RFT program, that is all i said. We have standards for a reason and those standards must be maintained. One of those standards is the expres test. You cant pass, i dont belittle anyone, i follow the established process to put the member on remedial and to have him/her retested and , if required, released.



i never said you belittle people. but a lot of people do and poke fun at people who are on or was on RFT, and it's not right, and you saying "just try and give me an earful" comes off as you can say whatever you want because you're a higher rank than me isn't right either.

last time i checked the CF was desperate for new recruits. if we abolish the RFT program how many people do we lose? if we can give some people the chance to prove to the CF that they want the job then why not give them the chance? we give members who are already established a second chance if they fail, why not new members? could easily lose out on good soldiers if we let them go.



> And all I want to know is that if these men and women are going into this program that they are seeing results and that they are not just taking the system for a "joy ride" per say.



if anyone on RFT tries to take the system for a "joy ride" they get their ass chewed out bad, saw it quite a few times. my staff at the time used to workout with us in the gym. so we had our instructors and psp staff watching us to make sure we worked out to our full potential. 90% of the people, when i was on RFT, never took advantage of the system. we were thankful to have a second chance to prove ourselves.



> What are your guys plans when you have to feed yourselves,life gets stressful,and PT is something you have to squeeze into your lives by using precious time after supper instead of with your families?



i'll never let myself go again. i will do whatever it takes to keep myself in shape. i hit the gym 5 days a week, and i will continue to, and it doesn't take much to keep yourself in shape. if you can't find 1 hour a day to do some PT there is something wrong.


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## Drag

CDN Aviator was not pulling rank, just stating fact the dos and don'ts of addressing superiors.  Your subsequent posts show a total lack of military experience and maturity.  Giving a superior an "earfull" with the attitude that you have displayed here will get you acquainted with various disciplinary measure the military has to offer.
  

FYI: Being counselled by a superior in a stern manner does not constitute harassment.


----------



## gcclarke

The minor spat about tone of conversations aside, this boils down to the effectiveness of the program, and how good it is at furthering the goals of the Canadian Armed Forces. We need more people. I'm fairly certain everyone here agrees with that. So, this gap needs to be bridge by both increasing our efforts to recruit *and train* new personnel, and to convince more of the people that we already do have to stick around for longer. 

Some of the people who get recruited are, at the time of their enlistment, physically unfit for service. Some of these people may be a lost cause. Some of them may be able to get into shape in a reasonable time frame. And some might have the capability to get into shape within a reasonable time frame, but are unwilling to put in the effort required to do so. 

Clearly, the first and the last of these three groups are a drain on resources, which could have otherwise been allocated towards another priority. Could more sophisticated testing be done to help filter out those who we just cannot get into shape? Probably.

But, the question remains, do the people who can and are successfully brought up to standard outnumber the people who aren't? I'm dead certain that the CFLRS staff are closely tracking these statistics, as well as the resources (Not only monetarily, but time spent by instructors who could have otherwise been devoted towards a BMQ or BMOQ platoon) being allocated towards this initiative.

In the end, it's likely up to the commandant to decide. Yes, there are going to be people there who abuse the system. This is hardly a factor unique to the WFT program. But there are also going to be people who move on from this program to become valued members of the CF. Personally, I think that our manning issues outweigh our funding issues to such a degree that this program is completely worth it. If a few people take the system for a ride, and it does seem to be a fairly small percentage who do, so be it. But again, that's a decision that's slightly above my pay grade.


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## Eye In The Sky

lpfan55 said:
			
		

> And to Eye: How are you sure those weren't desired results? Put it this way, I went from incredibly morbidly obese to a positionin which i can now get my self to a suitable level for the CF. If it can do that for me, imagine what it does for people that are >this< close to passing?



RFT was created because of a 'need' that was produced with the elimination of PT testing at the Recruiting phase.  CFRG created the problem;  CFLRS had to produce *something* to deal with it.  Enter RFT.

How do I know what the desired results of training are for CFLRS and the like?  Well, from spending 13'ish years as an instructor at various schools/units in the CF (the last of which was...you guessed it, CFLRS.  I was there as staff in B Div before you were set foot thru the Green Doors)


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## Eye In The Sky

King Elessar said:
			
		

> ahhh the old pull rank. is this where i go " yes Sgt, no Sgt, sorry Sgt"?
> 
> doesn't matter what rank you are, harrasment is a no-no, and it's unbecoming of a soldier to belittle a group of people because they can't pass the fitness test. some example we set. "sorry you're too fat to join, so piss off!"



You know, I find the people who say "pull the rank thing" are the ones who never have any.  Harassment is a no-no?  What harassment?  Are you a qualified HA/HI?  (I am so I wondering where the harassment is here).

A soldier who cannot pass a fitness test belittles THEMSELVES.  They/you are the ones responsible for their fitness or lack thereof.  NOT the CF.  You might want to take a gander at the applicable CFAO (seeing as you know so much about the CF, I am assuming you know what they are and how to find them....)

I'd say, being that you haven't been in the farkin' CF as long as my gitch has, you might want to suck back some, and listen to those who know.

(You aren't in the "those who know" crowd yet, to be clear).


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## Eye In The Sky

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the stats for the # of people showing up at CFLRS who get sent to RFT against the # of people in each environment who failed the EXPRES test.  While I am not a fan of the RFT concept, I am also aware of the fact that there are serving members who cannot pass the EXPRES test (not the ones who can't for valid medical reasons).



Well, I didn't target the NCR specifically but thats kinda where I was trying to go.... ;D


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## Pea

When a recruit fails a PO check on course, do they get booted from the CF? No, they generally get a recourse and sit on PAT platoon waiting for the next course, and then get another shot at that trades course. What happens when they fail again? They generally get offered to switch to another trade. So they sit around some more waiting for that trades course, and then they are finally posted to a unit IF they pass that course. There are many people who get posted to their first unit with "hooks". So they were paid a salary for 3 years because they kept failing their trades course. 

Meanwhile a recruit shows up for BMQ and they fail to meet the entrance standard by .5 of a level on their beep test, and we should just boot them right then & there? I honestly don't see much of a difference here between those that fail a different PO Check. 

If you look at my RFT time I was paid an extra 2 months in St.Jean since I had to do the month cycle, and then had to wait on PAT platoon for the next course. However when I got to my next posting to await my QL3 training I arrived to see everyone from my original BMQ platoon sitting there waiting for our course to start. They sat there for 2 months waiting for the course, and we graduated from the same QL3 course together. So really, I wasn`t paid any extra months. I still graduated my 3`s and was posted on the same date I would have been if I hadn`t missed that beep test by .5 of a level.

As for the comment about what happens when these troops get posted to a unit and don`t have mandatory PT time worked into their schedule? Well as a Med Tech I have very rarely had PT time since arriving at my posting this past year. Working sick parade in the morning and being on course after course doesn't really allow for that. So what do I do, well I work out in my evenings, on "my time". I've never been so embarassed as I was the day I failed that express test in St.Jean, and I will NEVER fail another. I've worked damn hard to get where I am now, and I won't let that go to waste.


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## Eye In The Sky

Question then...where does the CF draw the line on lowering standards?  It doesn't seem like it can go much lower.  However, I am waiting for the "environment specific" PT program and testing to come out.

MediPea, you are the best example I've seen/heard of that supports the existance of RFT.  

However...if you'd done the test at the CFRC and not passed, you'd of been asked to 'try again later' sort of thing...I bet you would have worked just as hard to get in the CF as you did on RFT.  

Therein lies the difference.  The real difference is "when" the CF is testing new mbrs on PT (and, I remind everyone, we are talking MINIMUM standards here).


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## Pea

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Question then...where does the CF draw the line on lowering standards?  It doesn't seem like it can go much lower.  However, I am waiting for the "environment specific" PT program and testing to come out.
> 
> MediPea, you are the best example I've seen/heard of that supports the existance of RFT.
> 
> However...if you'd done the test at the CFRC and not passed, you'd of been asked to 'try again later' sort of thing...I bet you would have worked just as hard to get in the CF as you did on RFT.
> 
> Therein lies the difference.  The real difference is "when" the CF is testing new mbrs on PT (and, I remind everyone, we are talking MINIMUM standards here).



I actually did the PT test at the recruiting centre during my application process. I passed the step-test no problem. Obviously it wasn't quite the same as the beep test.


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## Kat Stevens

I actually think the CF should have a permanent fat farm, staffed by all ex CABC instructors.  Anyone fails the PT test, 30 days to get in shape on your own to pass it.  Fail again, off to the farm for 30 days, PT test on completion of day 30.  Pass the test, no carreer implications.  Fail it, another 30 days, pass the test, noted on PER.  Fail, gone.  Everyone only gets one free visit to the farm in a carreer.  Fail again, gone.  Medical reasons exempt, of course.


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## PMedMoe

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I actually think the CF should have a permanent fat farm, staffed by all ex CABC instructors.  Anyone fails the PT test, 30 days to get in shape on your own to pass it.  Fail again, off to the farm for 30 days, PT test on completion of day 30.  Pass the test, no carreer implications.  Fail it, another 30 days, pass the test, noted on PER.  Fail, gone.  Everyone only gets one free visit to the farm in a carreer.  Fail again, gone.  Medical reasons exempt, of course.



They might as well locate it in Ottawa, then.


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## Kat Stevens

Kinda where I was going.  Everyone's keen to throw junk out of the basement, but no one wants to haul all that heavy crap down from the top floors.


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## benny88

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It doesn't seem like it can go much lower.  However, I am waiting for the "environment specific" PT program and testing to come out.



      What about trade specific? You say that we're desperate for bodies, true, yet a trade like pilot has far more applicants than slots. I think you should be able to work on your PT as long as you want, provided there's not someone itching to take your spot. The more competitive the trade, the less time you have to get yourself together on RFT.


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## beach_bum

As I've said time and time again.  You should have worked on your fitness prior to joining.  If I want to get a job as a lawyer, I need to get a law degree PRIOR to being hired.  Being fit PRIOR to applying is basically the same thing.


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## King Elessar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You know, I find the people who say "pull the rank thing" are the ones who never have any.  Harassment is a no-no?  What harassment?  Are you a qualified HA/HI?  (I am so I wondering where the harassment is here).
> 
> A soldier who cannot pass a fitness test belittles THEMSELVES.  They/you are the ones responsible for their fitness or lack thereof.  NOT the CF.  You might want to take a gander at the applicable CFAO (seeing as you know so much about the CF, I am assuming you know what they are and how to find them....)
> 
> I'd say, being that you haven't been in the farkin' CF as long as my gitch has, you might want to suck back some, and listen to those who know.
> 
> (You aren't in the "those who know" crowd yet, to be clear).



didn't know i had to be qualified to know what harrassment is, i've had my share directed at me, and i never said anyone here is harrassing me or anyone else. but peoples opinions can be interpreted as being harrassment, it's just how someone looks at it. nowadays you have to watch what you say, stuff can be interpreted many ways. opinions are fine, but don't call RFT a drain or a waste of resources in the CF.

i hate myself for failing that test, i remind myself almost everyday. it keeps me going to keep my fitness levels up where they should be. but i don't need to be belittled by someone else because of it, and i have. even by instructors, whether they realized it or not.

oh by the way, i work with people who have a lot of years in the CF. so you could say i am in the "those who know crowd".

@beach_bum

there are people who only failed the express test by .5 on the run or because they tripped or their shoe lace came untied. hell i almost failed my second test in BMQ because i got a major cramp while doing my situps because of an injury.

i'm not trying to pick fights here(even if that's how i come off as trying to do), just stating what i feel and trying to open some eyes on this whole RFT/WFT or whatever the hell it's called now issue. but hey i'm just a no hook private with very little experience in the CF. i'm just getting sick of trying to show people that RFT is a good thing for the CF, and it would be nice if those of us who have gone through it didn't get looked down upon by everyone else.


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## aesop081

King Elessar said:
			
		

> opinions are fine, but don't call RFT a drain or a waste of resources in the CF.



RFT is a drain and waste of resources in the CF. Thats my opinion and i am entitled to it.



> oh by the way, i work with people who have a lot of years in the CF. so you could say i am in the "those who know crowd".



No....but thats funny though.



> i'm just getting sick of trying to show people that RFT is a good thing for the CF,



Obviously there are people who disagree with you. Just because i dont share your opinion, it doesnt make me wrong. I got here without RFT because there were standards and i met them as required.


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## blacktriangle

beach_bum said:
			
		

> As I've said time and time again.  You should have worked on your fitness prior to joining.  If I want to get a job as a lawyer, I need to get a law degree PRIOR to being hired.  Being fit PRIOR to applying is basically the same thing.



I'm going to agree with this for the most part, we want motivated people that will take the initiative to get fit on their own time and dime. 

However, I do think that the physical fitness issues in the CF run much deeper then RFT... proper examples of fitness need to be set at all levels, which is not currently the case.


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## George Wallace

popnfresh said:
			
		

> However, I do think that the physical fitness issues in the CF run much deeper then RFT... proper examples of fitness need to be set at all levels, which is not currently the case.



And what should they be?

Do you remember the 5BX?

Perhaps you can tell us all what PSP were teaching PT Instructors two years ago on their PLQs and what they are teaching now?  What were PSP teaching four years ago?  Was what PSP endorsed in Petawawa, the same as what they were endorsing in Edmonton?  Seems to me that everytime I turn around there is a new list of what Exercise and what Warm Up/Cool Down was the best for you.  

So what is the "Proper Example of Fitness" anyway?


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## blacktriangle

That's a good question, and the answer needs to be defined. 

I would also say that PLQ alone does not transform a person into one who is both fit and knowledgeable about fitness. To me it seems like more of a formality really...


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## MJP

popnfresh said:
			
		

> That's a good question, and the answer needs to be defined.
> 
> I would also say that PLQ alone does not transform a person into one who is both fit and knowledgeable about fitness. To me it seems like more of a formality really...



A bit off topic but considering they do a grand total of two days on PT, one of them being student led practicals I certainly agree.  We get out what we put in when it comes to fitness.  Ask for a fairly low standard and enforce that with little training at all rank levels and you will get poor PT training across the board.  

Even when the PLQ had a 5 day Mod 1 it was poorly thought through.  A day and a half of theory and then shown different classes PSP has to offer doesn't add much to a young soldiers repertoire.


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## seadragon

Here is my opinion as a recent RFT grad.  
I collapsed, gasping, 10 m short on the last pass for level 5.0 on my first espress test.  My recruiter never mentioned beep tests, just running levels (2.4 Km in a certain time which I had done at my house) and the strength stuff.  I picked myself back up and scored enough for exempt on the strength portion.  RFT/WFT is a great program.  The staff told us they had only had 3 people in 2 years NOT pass after the 90 days.  One of the guys in with me tripped at level 5.5.  After 4 weeks he ran an 8.5!  If he had been sent home for tripping what would have happened to him?  We started with 32 on our phase.  20 of us tested in 4 weeks and only 5 didn't pass!  We had 10 VR and 2 injured to get down to 20.  In another 4 weeks only one was left that had not passed and her Grad parade is next week.  

"The program do work".
  
I am still with 3 people I was in RFT with and we are still in good shape and passing our fitness tests.  I agree with the minimum standards they have in place, some of the people could not do a single push up!  I was told that the testing at the recruiter was stopped because people were passing there then failing immediately at BMQ.  I wish I could have had a try out beep test before.  It would have helped me prepare.  
After I passed I stayed on RFT for 10 more weeks.  My course had a definite starting date and I did not have time to complete BMQ. I met one fellow who failed his beep test because he thought he had to run a "6".  So he ran back and forth 6 times then stopped!  Once I spent time with him in the barracks and explained to him what to do he passed with an 8 after 2 weeks!  One person on my original group applied and was accepted by the CF.  His recruiter told him he would be going in a "few months".  He joined a gym to get in better shape BUT was called and told a few days later, you leave in 2 weeks! 
When I left they were testing people every 2 weeks.  This gets people who are close back to BMQ ASAP which is a good thing.
No one has mentioned that you don't just workout on RFT.  You take MK classes, fitness and nutrition courses as well as some tough inspections (4 times a week).  All the people I knew who went on to BMQ told me RFT inspections were much tougher than BMQ and their staff were all impressed.
I was ashamed when I failed.  In my heart I really thought I was prepared but I was 10 m short.  I am very happy for my RFT time.  I love the CF and am proud everyday I put on the uniform and I am proud of the improvements I made on RFT.  This september I will get my oppurtunity to complete BMQ and will pass it easily thanks to my RFT training.


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## armyvern

popnfresh said:
			
		

> I'm going to agree with this for the most part, we want motivated people that will take the initiative to get fit on their own time and dime.
> 
> However, I do think that the physical fitness issues in the CF run much deeper then RFT... proper examples of fitness need to be set at all levels, which is not currently the case.



She's meaning that there used to be a (minimum) standard to enrol in the CF; now there's NO standard to enrol in the CF . We simply take whatever (at  great cost to taxpayers) then hopefully have some CF members motivate them enough in RFT to get fit.

Personal motivation on their parts? None (in the majority of cases). Else they'd have got themselves fit before their BMQ/BOTP began - fuck this is the military after all. Surprise!! Really, - we (taxpayers) pay them to have others motivate them because they obviously weren't self-motivated enough to get themselves in shape prior to reporting for that BMQ/BOTP.

As for those serving who can't meet the minimum standard ... we've got QR&Os and DAODs to deal with them (much used around these parts). ICs, RWs, C&Ps ... the means are there to handle those who simply can't find the "self-motivation" - supervisors simply need to apply it. 

... Hey, Cpl Bloggins, you failed your LFCPFT .. here's a big cup of IC applied-motivation for you. Sign here, and have a great day at remedial and your next round of work-ups. Off you go now; and, please do remember that it's an RW next time."


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## armyvern

King Elessar said:
			
		

> didn't know i had to be qualified to know what harrassment is, i've had my share directed at me, and i never said anyone here is harrassing me or anyone else. but peoples opinions can be interpreted as being harrassment, it's just how someone looks at it. nowadays you have to watch what you say, stuff can be interpreted many ways. opinions are fine, but don't call RFT a drain or a waste of resources in the CF.



No, it's not just "how someone looks at it", but a whole lot of people seem to think that. There are actual criteria that must be met for something to constitute harassment. Not liking what someone's opinion is doesn't make it harassment because that opinion just may be the honest-to-gawd truth. I learned this on my HA & HI courses.



> i hate myself for failing that test, i remind myself almost everyday. it keeps me going to keep my fitness levels up where they should be. but i don't need to be belittled by someone else because of it, and i have. even by instructors, whether they realized it or not.



Self-loathing sucks. It's not good for you. BUT, this is a perfect example of exactly why people should begin getting themselves into shape immediately after applying to the MILITARY and PRIOR to reporting for BMQ/BOTP. The standards (!!) are out there - CFRC advises that you will be tested on those minimal standards at the outset of your course ... 



> @beach_bum
> 
> there are people who only failed the express test by .5 on the run or because they tripped or their shoe lace came untied. hell i almost failed my second test in BMQ because i got a major cramp while doing my situps because of an injury.



Double knots cure that issue. Usually the PSP staff recommend it prior to beginning the shuttle run. A little prevention could be worth a pound of cure here. At no cost too.

You almost failed because you got a major cramp due to an injury? Did you check off that box on the XPress Test form that asks "Do you have any injuries that may prevent you from completing this test?" as a "yes" or as a "no"?? Just curious.



> i'm not trying to pick fights here(even if that's how i come off as trying to do), just stating what i feel and trying to open some eyes on this whole RFT/WFT or whatever the hell it's called now issue. but hey i'm just a no hook private with very little experience in the CF. i'm just getting sick of trying to show people that RFT is a good thing for the CF, and it would be nice if those of us who have gone through it didn't get looked down upon by everyone else.



I realize that you're not trying to pick fights here, but please do remember that some of us are of the opinion that our old policy of "meeting a minimum standard fitness level in order to be enrolled into the CF in the first place" is better even than RFT and is also fiscally responsible, sane, common sense.

I predict a return to that old policy too --- as soon as TFA winds down and the need to "meet numbers" (no matter what) has passed.  (And I promise to buy Journeyman a beer when this occurs)


----------



## lpfan55

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> lpfan,
> 
> I have a question for you. The stated CF policy for RFT is that one is to be tested after 30 days, 60 days ( if required) and 90 days (if required). After 90 days, if the member cannot pass, he/she is to be released. How could you have been there 7 months ?




You are put on PRB. If the panel gives you another shot, you get the time alotted. Only for those who look like they are making progress. Plus 3 weeks of christmas leave.


----------



## X-mo-1979

lpfan55 said:
			
		

> You are put on PRB. If the panel gives you another shot, you get the time alotted. Only for those who look like they are making progress. Plus 3 weeks of christmas leave.



So what have you given the CF after 7 months of pay, rations and quarters?
How much progress have you made at home?


----------



## lpfan55

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> RFT was created because of a 'need' that was produced with the elimination of PT testing at the Recruiting phase.  CFRG created the problem;  CFLRS had to produce *something* to deal with it.  Enter RFT.
> 
> How do I know what the desired results of training are for CFLRS and the like?  Well, from spending 13'ish years as an instructor at various schools/units in the CF (the last of which was...you guessed it, CFLRS.  I was there as staff in B Div before you were set foot thru the Green Doors)



It was not an attack, just trying to spurr thought. I'm not saying your wrong but im not saying you're right. I'm just initiating thought. I'm sure you were an instructor.  Like I said, not attacking.


----------



## lpfan55

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> So what have you given the CF after 7 months of pay, rations and quarters?
> How much progress have you made at home?



I've lost another twenty pounds, my situps are up by ten from 28 to 38, my handgrip has increased by a couple of pounds and I have noticed my cardio getting better. I've kept a keen interest in getting back into the CF. Why? Because that's where my heart is. Now yes, i may have dug myself into a hole for 18 years of my life, but guess what? I have the knowledge and the Know-how, to get my self out. So do other people consider me a failure?Yes. Do I consider myself a failure? NO. I have achieved things with the help from the CF I never though I was ever going to get. So in the end, as long as I can look in the mirror, and say i am giving it all I have, then who are you to try and gauge my progress? You may be a senior member, and I respect that, however you have no right to ask me what my progress is, even if you are trying to prove a point!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I can see this moving into it's death throws. Nothing really new has been covered for the last few pages and it's starting to circle the drain. If you've got something new and groundbreaking, get it out right now. This is heading for a lock.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## armyvern

lpfan55 said:
			
		

> I've lost another twenty pounds, my situps are up by ten from 28 to 38, my handgrip has increased by a couple of pounds and I have noticed my cardio getting better. I've kept a keen interest in getting back into the CF. Why? Because that's where my heart is. Now yes, i may have dug myself into a hole for 18 years of my life, but guess what? I have the knowledge and the Know-how, to get my self out. So do other people consider me a failure?Yes. Do I consider myself a failure? NO. I have achieved things with the help from the CF I never though I was ever going to get. So in the end, as long as I can look in the mirror, and say i am giving it all I have, then who are you to try and gauge my progress? You may be a senior member, and I respect that, however you have no right to ask me what my progress is, even if you are trying to prove a point!



I believe that you've now managed to find the self-motivation ... there's other people on this site who've found it too; there's never anything wrong with that. No one is slamming anyone who manages to get themselves into better shape.

It's just that it's more cost-effective (for the CF and the taxpayer) when people hopefully find that self-motivation prior to reporting for their course, not afterwards by relying on RFT to provide motivation for them.


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## Fishbone Jones

Thanks Vern. I think that caps the whole thing off nicely.

We're done here.

Locked, with the usual caveats.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------

