# Freeman on the Land?



## uptheglens (15 Aug 2011)

Since I live in Cornwall, Ont, I've become somewhat inured to what is tantamount to anarchy from the dog's breakfast that is law jurisdiction between Canada/USA/Ontario/Quebec/NY State/Cornwall/Jefferson County/Akwesasne, but this one really took the biscuit for me.

Shared with the provisions of the Copyright Act

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3257690

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CORNWALL — A Cornwall man who has joined a growing social movement that doesn't acknowledge government statutes or laws will not escape a warrant issued for his arrest, law enforcement officials said.

The 58-year-old man, who goes only by the name Thomas, was charged with the possession of illegal cigarettes after a search by the RCMP in September 2009.

But calling himself a "Freeman on the Land," Thomas said he is not bound by legal obligations or restrictions that most people recognize, because he has not given consent to be governed.

Thomas does not acknowledge his last name, which he refers to as a "corporate" name assigned by the government. He does not recognize his birth certificate, which he considers a bank note that assigns a monetary value to citizens. He drives without insurance or a licence, saying he doesn't recognize any legal obligation to do so.

And when allegedly caught smuggling cigarettes in 2009, Thomas said he wasn't doing anything wrong.

"To me, it's not hurting anyone, except that the government wants money from you," he said.

In anticipation of his court date on Aug. 4, Thomas sent a letter to the judge informing them he would not be attending to answer to the charges against him.

"Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that all men are equal under the law there, no one man has authority over another man unless authority has knowingly, willingly and intentionally been granted," the letter said. "I did not grant or consent to anyone having authority over me and did not contact with the court, giving them permission to continue."

Thomas said he considers the Government of Canada to be "de facto," which includes the courts.

"Section 15 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that no one is obligated to obey any law of any de facto government, therefor I, as a natural person, am not obligated to obey and or appear (in court) on August 4, 2011."

Missing his court date, a bench warrant has been issued for his arrest.

Thomas is one of about 160 Freeman on the Land that are known to police in Ontario, according to Ontario Provincial Police Const. Pete Robertson.

As a relatively new social movement, Freemen on the Land are gaining momentum around the world, and publicize their defiance in YouTube videos and websites on the Internet.

"The movement is getting bigger and bigger all the time," Thomas said. "...To give us back our freedom because we are all slaves."

But despite the laws and statutes the Freemen cite to build their case, Robertson said all people are considered equal under the law.

"These people are looking at a philosophy and lifestyle that disassociates them," he said. "When we come across a person like that we are going to deal with them with the laws that are mandated. We will treat them like everyone else."

Robertson said police have been monitoring the movement, and said Freemen on the Land have been identified in cities across Ontario, including Guelph, Owen Sound, Toronto, Ottawa, London and the Niagara region.

Because they don't believe laws apply to them, Robertson said there have been instances of Freemen on the Land possessing firearms, explosives and illegal substances.

Bev Roy, manager of the provincial offences court in Cornwall, gave a presentation to United Counties of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry councillors about the movement in June.

Roy said they are working to educate court staff about Freeman on the Land, and are working with court security to develop an in-house protocol about acceptable behaviour during court proceedings.

Roy said she wants her staff to understand what the Freeman on the Land are trying to achieve.
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Now, it's blatantly obvious that said "Thomas" is trying to beat the rap by using any defense short of insanity, but I wanted to throw this one out to members of this forum who are far more educated than I for their opinion. I just find it utterly breathtaking that "Thomas" refuses to acknowledge the laws of The Crown, yet wraps himself piously in Section 15 of the Charter of Rights of Freedoms at the same time as his Aegis.


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## stukirkpatrick (15 Aug 2011)

I saw a youtube video of a traffic stop with a "Freeman" who refused to submit to an approved screening device despite having clearly been drinking.  He was arrested and charged (the hard way) but I think people like this are a ticking time bomb, if they are going to be as reckless with the rights of others as this one was.  

They conveniently overlook the parts of the charter that guarantee the rights to "everyone", and treat it more as a personal permission slip to do whatever they want.


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## je suis prest (15 Aug 2011)

The article fails to mention that absolutely none of the people who have tried to advance this bizarre claim have had the slightest success in the courts.  There are a number of people, however, who have found themselves in serious trouble with the CRA as a result of accepting tax advice based on this nonsense.


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## Neill McKay (15 Aug 2011)

Something tells me that if he were sick or injured he'd have no difficulty seeking help from the nearest public hospital, and I'll take bets on who he calls if his house catches fire.


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## HavokFour (15 Aug 2011)

Yet he's willing to smuggle for said government bank notes?  :


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## Infanteer (15 Aug 2011)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Something tells me that if he were sick or injured he'd have no difficulty seeking help from the nearest public hospital, and I'll take bets on who he calls if his house catches fire.



I was just going to say the same thing - it mentions him driving around on (I am assuming) public roads.  So can I assume he is forsaking all the responsibilities of being governed (being a citizen) but still enjoys the benefits?


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## uptheglens (15 Aug 2011)

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Yet he's willing to smuggle for said government bank notes?  :



Maybe he's paid in Pieces of Eight or Krugerands?

*tongue planted firmly in cheek*


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## a_majoor (25 Aug 2011)

Title could be changed to "Freeloader on the Land"


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## CougarKing (24 Sep 2013)

The Freeman movement in the news again:

Yahoo News: Daily Brew section



> *Latest incident involving a ‘Freeman’ turns Alberta pensioner’s life upside down*
> 
> The rental-income home an Alberta retiree hoped would supplement her pension has instead turned into a nightmare after she ran afoul of a member of the so-called Freeman-on-the-Land movement.
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Sep 2013)

If you buy the property and declare it a "Freehold" I can sort of understand, but a rental suite? What a wanker.

I say fence them in, cut off any water, gas or electricity in. If they wish to go through the "border" they will need an acceptable passport and are subject to the laws of the land as any visitor might. We have a few ghost towns they can have and exercise their "rights". I suspect only a few are serious enough to stick it out.


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## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2013)

I read that piece earlier this week.

This man is a disgraceful example of a human being. You know what I would like to do to disgraceful examples, so I will sum up there.

These "Freemen" need an ass whuppin.


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## medicineman (24 Sep 2013)

Sounds like this guy needs either a psych assessment AND/OR a search warrant executed to ensure it's not a meth lab...and as noted, if the lady in question is paying for gas, hydro and water, she should inform the powers that be that none is needed at that place for the time being  ;D.


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## Lightguns (24 Sep 2013)

He is not a freemen.  Freemen believe that you do not harm other non-government people or their chattels.  Freemen also believe that use of private property should be restricted to passing through without using any resources other than water for drinking, animals and wild plants for food.  Freemen do not use crops, or chattels without permission unless those chattels and crops are owned by a government which they then consider to be public and free ownership.  Being a Freemen is about ownership of yourself free and clear and respecting such ownership in others.

Freemen also subscribe to the Dali Lama that you can use a firearm against only those who use a firearm against you.


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## GreenMarine (24 Sep 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

The FBI list Freemen as a domestic Terrorist Group, even though Canada's view on Terror differ I'm sure a raid of this embassy will draw little attention and put this nut case behind bars...where most Freeman that dont play by the rules end up.


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## my72jeep (24 Sep 2013)

Remember when we called them squatters?


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## FJAG (24 Sep 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> He is not a freemen.  Freemen believe that you do not harm other non-government people or their chattels.  Freemen also believe that use of private property should be restricted to passing through without using any resources other than water for drinking, animals and wild plants for food.  Freemen do not use crops, or chattels without permission unless those chattels and crops are owned by a government which they then consider to be public and free ownership.  Being a Freemen is about ownership of yourself free and clear and respecting such ownership in others.
> 
> Freemen also subscribe to the Dali Lama that you can use a firearm against only those who use a firearm against you.



Hate to burst your bubble but the people who subscribe to the Freeman culture are anything but altruistic. They are generally disgruntled individuals in some form of dispute with the law or others who grasp onto the concept as a way to get their own way using a series of websites that, for a fee, provide them with ridiculous legal rhetoric and precedent documentation designed to frustrate the system.

There is a recent 2012 case out of Alberta in a family law context called  Meads v Meads in which the judge went out of his way to summarize and document the entire Freeman (and its related concepts) culture, how it works and what to look for. Its a long case - several hundred pages - but if you have the patience to read it you'll recognize the movement for the shallow, self serving, self interested thing that it really is.

Here's a link to the case. You can download a pdf from it if you want.

http://canlii.ca/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html

 :cheers:


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## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2013)

Anyone remember the Weibo Ludwig case? Although Weibo was a "environmentalist" this sounds similar.


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## Scott (24 Sep 2013)

Pretty sure Wiebo wasn't a Freeman, he was just a dude who went more than a little nuts when big oil interrupted his idyllic country life. Much of their move to Alberta was tied to disenchantment with (being kicked the fuck out of) their group of D/CRC in Ontario. His and another family moved to Hythe to have their own way.

Andrew Nikiforuk did an only slightly one sided account of Wiebo's late 90's transgressions and Freemen were never mentioned.


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## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Pretty sure Wiebo wasn't a Freeman, he was just a dude who went more than a little nuts when big oil interrupted his idyllic country life. Much of their move to Alberta was tied to disenchantment with (being kicked the frig out of) their group of D/CRC in Ontario. His and another family moved to Hythe to have their own way.
> 
> Andrew Nikiforuk did an only slightly one sided account of Wiebo's late 90's transgressions and Freemen were never mentioned.


Yup, got it. Similar crap though.


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## ModlrMike (24 Sep 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> ...unless those chattels and crops are owned by a government which they then consider to be public and free ownership.



If something is owned by the government IE: public, then it's not free. The tax the public pays is the cost of ownership. If a Freeman pays no tax then he has no ownership of public IE: government property, and no entitlement to its use.


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## cupper (24 Sep 2013)

Here is more on the FBI's consideration of the "Freeman" or "Sovereign Citizen" movements.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens

It should be noted that there are violent / extreme elements within the movements that have killed law enforcement officers.



> Since 2000, lone-offender sovereign-citizen extremists have killed six law enforcement officers. In 2010, two Arkansas police officers stopped sovereign-citizen extremists Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joseph during a routine traffic stop on Interstate 40. Joseph Kane jumped out of the vehicle and opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle, killing both office


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## Retired AF Guy (24 Sep 2013)

More from the CBC.



> Police consult Crown on Calgary Freeman 'embassy' charges
> Police initially referred Caverhill to civil courts
> 
> CBC News Posted: Sep 23, 2013 6:20 PM MT Last Updated: Sep 24, 2013 4:17 PM MT
> ...



 Article link.


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## JorgSlice (24 Sep 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> More from the CBC.
> 
> Article link.



He has been ordered to vacate the property by police.


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## Journeyman (24 Sep 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> He has been ordered to vacate the property by police.


Thank you; the post by Retired AF Guy was just too much to go through.


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## Brad Sallows (24 Sep 2013)

Seems straightforward enough.  Set him "free" on some "land" that is not, in practical terms, occupied - there is quite a bit of it slightly north of continental Canada.  The purity of it should appeal to him: there will be no risk he consumes any tax-funded resources (short of the JP4 and the parachute to get him there).


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## dapaterson (24 Sep 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Seems straightforward enough.  Set him "free" on some "land" that is not, in practical terms, occupied - there is quite a bit of it slightly north of continental Canada.  The purity of it should appeal to him: there will be no risk he consumes any tax-funded resources (short of the JP4 and the parachute to get him there).



In these times of fiscal restraint, your plan is too expensive.  Forget about the parachute.


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## Retired AF Guy (24 Sep 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> He has been ordered to vacate the property by police.



Could be trouble...


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## JesseWZ (24 Sep 2013)

The common theme to most (if not all) Freemen arguments (and those making them) is they are dumb. 
Full stop.

Unfortunately they are just dumb enough to cause real trouble but not so dumb as to have forgotten how to breath.


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## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Seems straightforward enough.  Set him "free" on some "land" that is not, in practical terms, occupied - there is quite a bit of it slightly north of continental Canada.  The purity of it should appeal to him: there will be no risk he consumes any tax-funded resources (short of the JP4 and the parachute to get him there).


Devious yet simple.

I like it.


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## medicineman (25 Sep 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Seems straightforward enough.  Set him "free" on some "land" that is not, in practical terms, occupied - there is quite a bit of it slightly north of continental Canada.  The purity of it should appeal to him: there will be no risk he consumes any tax-funded resources (short of the JP4 and the parachute to get him there).



Hans Island...let him deal with the Danes  :nod:.

MM


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## Eowyn (25 Sep 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> He has been ordered to vacate the property by police.



Just one small but very important correction.  He has been ordered to vacate by the COURTS.


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## ModlrMike (25 Sep 2013)

Apparently he's also wanted on an outstanding warrant in Quebec under an alias. I understand that he has until the weekend to vacate and then the landlord can ask the Sheriff to enforce the order.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Sep 2013)

The outstanding warrant should be enough to take him into custody right now. Why wait till the weekend for him to do more damage, formulate plans, etc?


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## Baloo (25 Sep 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The outstanding warrant should be enough to take him into custody right now. Why wait till the weekend for him to do more damage, formulate plans, etc?



Unless it is a 'Canada-wide' warrant, it does not matter. Even if it covers the entire province of Quebec they will not seek to have him returned. Unless he, for some reason, travels back to La Belle Province, he will not be tried for those matters in all likelihood.


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## ModlrMike (25 Sep 2013)

Common assault rarely results in a Canada wide warrant. I'm going to presume that he will either defy the order, or slink off into the dark of night to surface again in a similar situation. I actually hope he defies the order. It will be interesting to see what the justice system makes of it.


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## je suis prest (25 Sep 2013)

While the actions of the "Freemen" can be quite distressing - particularly in the case of the poor woman in Alberta - and they are increasingly a nuisance in the courts, the actions of one of them has at least allowed one Ontario judge to write one of the funniest, and best written, court judgments in many years. It is worth a read.

http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html


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## Journeyman (25 Sep 2013)

je suis prest said:
			
		

> http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html


Worth reading, just for the footnotes.    :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (25 Sep 2013)

je suis prest said:
			
		

> While the actions of the "Freemen" can be quite distressing - particularly in the case of the poor woman in Alberta - and they are increasingly a nuisance in the courts, the actions of one of them has at least allowed one Ontario judge to write one of the funniest, and best written, court judgments in many years. It is worth a read.
> 
> http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html


Outstanding - milpoints inbound for sharing that.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Sep 2013)

Best. Judgement. Ever.


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## FJAG (26 Sep 2013)

je suis prest said:
			
		

> While the actions of the "Freemen" can be quite distressing - particularly in the case of the poor woman in Alberta - and they are increasingly a nuisance in the courts, the actions of one of them has at least allowed one Ontario judge to write one of the funniest, and best written, court judgments in many years. It is worth a read.
> 
> http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html



Good find. Points inbound.

 ;D


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## medicineman (26 Sep 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Worth reading, just for the footnotes.    :nod:



They were funnier than the actual judgement...and that was pretty comical.

MM


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## Teflon (26 Sep 2013)

Meads v. Meads, 2012, ABQB, 571

http://canlii.ca/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.pdf

A very extensive court decision from Alberta in a divorce case that examines quite a few facets of :Freeman on the Land" beliefs and explains the legal reasons behind their absolute uselessness - Written as a court decision but in a manner that could be used by other Judges less familiar with their tactics.


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## jeffb (26 Sep 2013)

The interesting thing about the case that _je suis prest_ posted is that even though the Judge clearly thinks the guy is somewhat of an idiot, he still found that the law sided with the accused. Just goes to show how tough the role of judge must be. I probably would have just convicted the guy for pissing me off with his ramblings.


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## Danjanou (26 Sep 2013)

je suis prest said:
			
		

> While the actions of the "Freemen" can be quite distressing - particularly in the case of the poor woman in Alberta - and they are increasingly a nuisance in the courts, the actions of one of them has at least allowed one Ontario judge to write one of the funniest, and best written, court judgments in many years. It is worth a read.
> 
> http://canlii.ca/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html



Priceless, just priceless, MPs inbound


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## cupper (26 Sep 2013)

I love how in lines 1 to 4 he blames his friend and colleague for having to deal with this mess in the first place.

The road to hell and all. :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (27 Sep 2013)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> The Freeman movement in the news again:
> 
> Yahoo News: Daily Brew section
> 
> ...


Squatting firing alright, squatting - STOPS!


> Supposed Freeman-on-the-land Andreas Pirelli is not free anymore.
> 
> The man who declared the northwest duplex he rents an "embassy" and refused to pay full rent to his landlady was arrested early Friday by city police, said Duty Insp. Darrell Hesse.
> 
> ...


_Calgary Sun_, 27 Sept 13


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## JorgSlice (27 Sep 2013)

Disregard. Article above.


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## JorgSlice (27 Sep 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The outstanding warrant should be enough to take him into custody right now. Why wait till the weekend for him to do more damage, formulate plans, etc?



Calgary Police can make the arrest, and only hold him until they consult with Quebec authorities and determine if they want to extend the warrant. There was a case a few years ago, a man flying to UK out of Winnipeg had an outstanding warrant in Ontario. He was held by Customs until CBSA received notice that OPP had no desire to extend the warrant and would only act on it if he ever entered Ontario. He was then permitted to continue his vacation as normal. His return flight was not so pleasant, he had a connecting flight through Pearson and was arrested at the gate by OPP.


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## cupper (27 Sep 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Calgary Police can make the arrest, and only hold him until they consult with Quebec authorities and determine if they want to extend the warrant. There was a case a few years ago, a man flying to UK out of Winnipeg had an outstanding warrant in Ontario. He was held by Customs until CBSA received notice that OPP had no desire to extend the warrant and would only act on it if he ever entered Ontario. He was then permitted to continue his vacation as normal. His return flight was not so pleasant, he had a connecting flight through Pearson and was arrested at the gate by OPP.



They were just being fiscally responsible, allowing the gentleman to pay for his own repatriation. ;D


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## medicineman (28 Sep 2013)

Makes you wonder if CBSA neglected to mention to him that little bit...he might have changed his point of entry  :nod:.  Or he didn't think anyone would do anything about it since he "wasn't staying"...

MM


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## CougarKing (24 Oct 2013)

Related:

Yahoo News/Daily Brew newsfeed



> *Canadian police see ‘sovereign citizen’ movement as public safety threat*
> By Steve Mertl
> 
> National Affairs Contributor
> ...


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## J.J (24 Oct 2013)

The Freeman of the Land mentality also exist in the black community. They call themselves Moorish American nationals. They have the same beliefs and methods of operation as the Freeman\sovereign citizens . I was recently sent a notarized, formal bill filed through the courts in Cook County, Illinois for 5.3 billion dollars, to be paid in gold bullion. A active member of the  Moorish Americans has billed me $63,000\hr for his time. Apparently when you arrest some for 2 prohibited firearms and $12,000, they think you're wasting their time.  
I have asked finance to cut me a cheque, in my name, so I can past my bill.  ;D


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## brihard (24 Oct 2013)

Yeah, we've been warned about these guys, including getting our credit checks done annually and watching out for liens placed on our homes/vehicles if they're able to identify you... Huge pain in the ass, apparently. I've been fortunate enough not to have dealt with any yet.


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## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2013)

Have you told them that you, also, are a Freeman, and claim the right to bill anyone who uses your name in official correspondence the amount of umpteen squadillion dollars?


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## ModlrMike (24 Oct 2013)

> "This movement is based on a decentralized, libertarian ideology, which is often motivated by personal gain, self-gratification or justification of illegal behaviour," says the pamphlet.



Shows they don't know much about libertarians either. Libertarian philosophy is completely the opposite of this statement.


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## The Bread Guy (30 Oct 2013)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Related:
> 
> Yahoo News/Daily Brew newsfeed
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press was kind enough to share the document that was the basis of the original story (obtained via ATIP from the RCMP) - here it is at Dropbox, with thanks to CP.


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## a_majoor (30 Oct 2013)

I'd say this is a bit of an overreaction. 

The number of "Freeloaders on the land" is very miniscule, and their ideology isn't very appealing to most people (even the Occupy movement folks went back to their homes after they had endured bad weather, robbery and unsanitary "camping" conditions without the benefit of civilization for a few weeks), so to claim this is some sort of "public saftey threat" seems more like special pleading to increase police powers than anything else.

Like someone said upthread, if a person really is claiming to be a "Freeloader on the land" while committing a crime against property, then release them into the wilds of BC or Northern Ontario where they can be as Sovereign as they like and not interfere with other people's lives or enjoyment of property.


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## JorgSlice (30 Oct 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I'd say this is a bit of an overreaction.
> 
> The number of "Freeloaders on the land" is very miniscule, and their ideology isn't very appealing to most people (even the Occupy movement folks went back to their homes after they had endured bad weather, robbery and unsanitary "camping" conditions without the benefit of civilization for a few weeks), so to claim this is some sort of "public saftey threat" seems more like special pleading to increase police powers than anything else.
> 
> Like someone said upthread, if a person really is claiming to be a "Freeloader on the land" while committing a crime against property, then release them into the wilds of BC or Northern Ontario where they can be as Sovereign as they like and not interfere with other people's lives or enjoyment of property.



Yes minuscule, but in Land Of The Hippies (Greater Vancouver), they are abundant and are still a threat even in small numbers. Just because they're "miniscule" does not eliminate threat to police or public safety. Let's look at the Grand Prairie incident. Unknown number of Freeloaders captured Trappers cabins with unknown weapons. 

Remember Mayerthorpe?


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## a_majoor (31 Oct 2013)

The same arguments can be made, and with even greater credibility, against followers of Islam in Canada. They exist in large numbers and some of them commit acts of domestic violence against their own family members, and members of their community have been implicatied in real threats against public saftey (planning terrorist attacks against Parliament, Via rail in the GTA and "pressure cooker" bombs in BC), but normal police powers and procedures (coupled with some intelligence sharing) has proven quite effective against them.

There is always potential for individuals to commit actis of violence or crimes, but in a liberal, democratic society the powers of the police need to be constrained. Militarized police, like in some places in the United States, become a danger to ordinary citizens as well.


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## brihard (31 Oct 2013)

Where are you getting that the FOTL are inspiring more militarization of the police? I don't see that happening. This is just routine sharing of officer safety/criminal intelligence information.

I know a number of other officers who have had dealings with these individuals. Police/FOTL encounters are something that does happen with fair regularity. I'm unsure why it's seen as an 'overreaction' to disseminate a basic primer on FOTL to officers who may not have been aware of them. I'd not call an estimated 30,000 FOTL to be 'miniscule'. Not huge, certainly, but noteworthy.


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## Dissident (31 Oct 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Where are you getting that the FOTL are inspiring more militarization of the police? I don't see that happening. This is just routine sharing of officer safety/criminal intelligence information.
> 
> I know a number of other officers who have had dealings with these individuals. Police/FOTL encounters are something that does happen with fair regularity. I'm unsure why it's seen as an 'overreaction' to disseminate a basic primer on FOTL to officers who may not have been aware of them. I'd not call an estimated 30,000 FOTL to be 'miniscule'. Not huge, certainly, but noteworthy.



Pretty much.

The briefing I attended which included references/info on FOTL/SC movement also covered radical Islamic groups and the Squamish 5/eco terrorists. 

Bro's in blue do report the occasional FOTL interactions during traffic stops. While I can't quantify these encounter, they are regular enough.


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## The Bread Guy (31 Oct 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The number of "Freeloaders on the land" is very miniscule, and their ideology isn't very appealing to most people ....


And sometimes, even small numbers of folks can cause significant problems.


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## Journeyman (31 Oct 2013)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> ......and the Squamish 5/eco terrorists.


Good Int -- the Squamish 5 were arrested over 30 years ago; I think you can take that 'Wanted' poster down now.


....but if you need a hot tip for your ongoing investigation, my girlfriend usually spends 3-5 days a week with Ann Hansen -- here in Ontario


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## Dissident (31 Oct 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Good Int -- the Squamish 5 were arrested over 30 years ago; I think you can take that 'Wanted' poster down now.
> 
> 
> ....but if you need a hot tip for your ongoing investigation, my girlfriend usually spends 3-5 days a week with Ann Hansen -- here in Ontario


 :


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## GDawg (31 Oct 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Yes minuscule, but in Land Of The Hippies (Greater Vancouver), they are abundant and are still a threat even in small numbers. Just because they're "miniscule" does not eliminate threat to police or public safety. Let's look at the Grand Prairie incident. Unknown number of Freeloaders captured Trappers cabins with unknown weapons.
> 
> Remember Mayerthorpe?



The Grande Prairie cabin idiocy has finally been sorted out:

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/2013/10/30/duo-charged-in-cabin-takeover-given-time-to-find-a-lawyer


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## JesseWZ (1 Nov 2013)

We have had numerous dealings with them here on the left coast as well.


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## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2013)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> We have had numerous dealings with them here on the left coast as well.



We have not had a problem with them......yet.

Mind you the winters here may keep them away for a bit.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Nov 2013)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> We have had numerous dealings with them here on the left coast as well.



Considering the early governments encouraged fringe groups to settle in BC, it's not surprising that we continue to have a fair number of people with unique belief systems.


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## CougarKing (27 Jun 2014)

Talk about a whole new level of self-denial of one's responsibility...  :

Yahoo News/Daily Brew



> *Freemen-on-the-Land follower walks out of his own trial, claims it isn’t him being accused*
> By Matthew Coutts | Daily Brew – 11 hours ago
> 
> The bizarre anti-government Freemen-on-the-Land movement establishing itself in Canada reached a new low this week when a Prince Edward Island man stood up and walked out of court while facing charges of endangering the public.
> ...


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## Rocky Mountains (27 Jun 2014)

uptheglens said:
			
		

> Thomas (no last name)
> 
> "Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms states that all men are equal under the law there, no one man has authority over another man unless authority has knowingly, willingly and intentionally been granted," the letter said. "I did not grant or consent to anyone having authority over me and did not contact with the court, giving them permission to continue."
> 
> ...



Doesn't quite read the same as the real Section 15;

15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.

(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2014)

CCC S15:


> Obedience to de facto law
> 15. No person shall be convicted of an offence in respect of an act or omission in obedience to the laws for the time being made and enforced by persons in de facto possession of the sovereign power in and over the place where the act or omission occurs.
> 
> R.S., c. C-34, s. 15.



Clearly several scoops short of a sundae.  But the nuts and bananas are there...


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## PMedMoe (27 Jun 2014)

One of the comments on Yahoo (clearly of the tinfoil hat brigade) stated something along the lines of:  "When you are born, the government creates a corporation in your name, so when you see your name in all capital letters (hmmm, such as on a court document?) it's referring to the corporation, not the person."


Ummm, yeah....okaaaayyy....    :Tin-Foil-Hat:

(My comment in yellow)


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## cupper (27 Jun 2014)

BUt remember, at least in the US, corporations are people too, my friend! ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2014)

I think the problem is that the "Freeman are all about their rights and don't want the responsibility that would go with being without a state. Being truly free means being truly responsible for any harm you cause. It means requesting permission to enter a store or business as you are possibly infringing upon them. It means the ultimate respect for private property again due to infringement. 

Nomadic people are likely the closet to a freeman, but even they are bound by cultural imperatives. The current crop of "Freeman" are just people that failed at being hippies as it requires to much commitment.


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## Rocky Mountains (4 Jul 2014)

I think law enforcement can get distracted by segmenting the usual suspects and giving them too much credit for evil doings.  I remember when CSIS was in its birthing pains and took on white supremacists as a major project, going so far as to help set up the Heritage Front, all the while ignoring intelligence on the upcoming Air India bombing.  Funny thing, while I know lots of criminals I don't know of any racist conspiracies with criminal intent and am not sure any really exist.  I even casually know a few of Alberta's White Boys Posse drug gang and while some of them like swastikas, they are not even all white.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> I think law enforcement can get distracted by segmenting the usual suspects and giving them too much credit for evil doings.  I remember when CSIS was in its birthing pains and took on white supremacists as a major project, going so far as to help set up the Heritage Front, all the while ignoring intelligence on the upcoming Air India bombing.  Funny thing, while I know lots of criminals I don't know of any racist conspiracies with criminal intent and am not sure any really exist.  I even casually know a few of Alberta's White Boys Posse drug gang and while some of them like swastikas, they are not even all white.



I don't think anyone, HERE, is impressed with your list of acquaintances. Some things should just be left unstated.

Whatever credibility you have (had) here, I dare say, just took a major hit. 

However, that's just my  :2c:


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## Rocky Mountains (4 Jul 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone, HERE, is impressed with your list of acquaintances. Some things should just be left unstated.



I seriously don't drink, smoke, or do drugs but when someone comes into a business where I work with an inch thick wad of Twenties, a really stupid thing is to ask him to leave.  No. 1 - you're out a couple grand.  No. 2 - you might have to start preparing for a fire sale.   Every little town in Alberta and B.C. has a bike gang.  You don't have to look for them.  If you don't know any bikers or supporters, you must be a hermit.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jul 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone, HERE, is impressed with your list of acquaintances. Some things should just be left unstated.
> 
> Whatever credibility you have (had) here, I dare say, just took a major hit.



Thank you for being much more mellow than I................holy cow, you are becoming the 'Care Bear Mod". :-*


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## ModlrMike (5 Jul 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> I seriously don't drink, smoke, or do drugs but when someone comes into a business where I work with an inch thick wad of Twenties, a really stupid thing is to ask him to leave.  No. 1 - you're out a couple grand.  No. 2 - you might have to start preparing for a fire sale.   Every little town in Alberta and B.C. has a bike gang.  You don't have to look for them.  If you don't know any bikers or supporters, you must be a hermit.



Being a biker does not automatically make you a criminal or gang member.


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## Rocky Mountains (5 Jul 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Being a biker does not automatically make you a criminal or gang member.



In case anyone is confused, I am not talking about grey haired grannies who ride bikes.  

My point was that having the justice system spend a minute worrying about Freemen on the Land until they actually do something or profess violence could easily be a waste of resources as per my example.


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## The_Falcon (5 Jul 2014)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> In case anyone is confused, I am not talking about grey haired grannies who ride bikes.
> 
> My point was that having the justice system spend a minute worrying about Freemen on the Land until they actually do something or profess violence could easily be a waste of resources as per my example.



There have already been plenty of incidents where "freemen" have shown a disposition towards violent behaviour when dealing with law enforcement.  Most haven't made the news, but youtube is full of examples.


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## brihard (5 Jul 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> There have already been plenty of incidents where "freemen" have shown a disposition towards violent behaviour when dealing with law enforcement.  Most haven't made the news, but youtube is full of examples.



Yup. And there's hazard in viewing FOTL monolithically and separate from anything else. Really it's just a categorization of the farthest end of the spectrum of antigovernment/antiauthoritarian views. Any LEO deals with people who have this viewpoint to some extent or another regularly. On the one end of the spectrum it's as mild as the "don't you have real criminals to catch?" when enforcing traffic, liquor or drug laws, and it carries on up the chain through those with less and less respect for law (criminal and otherwise) and authority, all the way to the extreme of those who don't recognize the government at all. Plot that 'respect for authority' against 'propensity for violence' and you'll easily see where most of the common kinds of whackos fall...


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## Good2Golf (5 Jul 2014)

Funny how these people don't have any issue referring to the institutional constructs of the Nation, such as the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, to protect their "rights" to their own "freedom"...  :  By their own logic, the CoR&F does not apply to their situation.


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## brihard (5 Jul 2014)

Joke's on them when they get pulled over for speeding, busted for no license/registration, and CPIC checks come back that they have a warrant out for failure to attend court.


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## The_Falcon (5 Jul 2014)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup. And there's hazard in viewing FOTL monolithically and separate from anything else. Really it's just a categorization of the farthest end of the spectrum of antigovernment/antiauthoritarian views. Any LEO deals with people who have this viewpoint to some extent or another regularly. On the one end of the spectrum it's as mild as the "don't you have real criminals to catch?" when enforcing traffic, liquor or drug laws, and it carries on up the chain through those with less and less respect for law (criminal and otherwise) and authority, all the way to the extreme of those who don't recognize the government at all. Plot that 'respect for authority' against 'propensity for violence' and you'll easily see where most of the common kinds of whackos fall...



Absolutely.  I don't think the "freeman" movement is an organized entity in any sort (that would seem to run counter to their beliefs at any rate).  But the "freemen"  do seem to follow the same "script" as it were when dealing with LE (ie, your aren't in uniform unless you have your business card, my name isn't the name on my license, and all that other pseudo-legal nonsense), which does make them a different sort of beast than the, repeat offender who just plain hates the cops.


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## brihard (5 Jul 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Absolutely.  I don't think the "freeman" movement is an organized entity in any sort (that would seem to run counter to their beliefs at any rate).  But the "freemen"  do seem to follow the same "script" as it were when dealing with LE (ie, your aren't in uniform unless you have your business card, my name isn't the name on my license, and all that other pseudo-legal nonsense), which does make them a different sort of beast than the, repeat offender who just plain hates the cops.



They can tell it to the tow company when it comes time to get their car released for driving unregistered and the vehicle is only to be released to the registered owner...


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## Scott (6 Jul 2014)

So much retard in these guys.


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