# Alberta Schools; pick your own gender and bathroom



## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2016)

I'm not too sure WTF is going on out in Alberta. 

Today I'm a girl, lets hit the showers ladies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-education-gender-lgbtq-gsa-guidelines-1.3402300


> *
> Alberta students to define their own gender: 5 big changes in new school guidelines*
> 
> *1. Pick your own pronoun*
> ...


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## cavalryman (20 Jan 2016)

Confuse future voters early enough and you can count on them to vote for left-wing insanity for life when they grow up.  :facepalm:


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## McG (20 Jan 2016)

This is how we will arrive at the Starship Troopers showers.  Gender has just become unaffordable in washroom design.  Everything will become either communal or individual rooms.


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## Flavus101 (20 Jan 2016)

Is this a The Onion report or is this the real deal?...


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Jan 2016)

It's real, if I am in a bathroom and young girl walks in, I am walking out in a hurry, because the risks to me is to high, even a unfounded accusation can ruin you.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure WTF is going on out in Alberta.



Whoa Cowboy!!  [sorry, just had to]
It's worse in Ontario my friend,.......make sure next time you get arrested to declare yourself female and get to spend a few nights in the women's jail.  Whatever you verbally self-identify as, is where you will go.......


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## Strike (20 Jan 2016)

And then there's this:



> Students who do not feel comfortable in a group setting should also be given the option for "independent study to earn physical education credits," the document advises.



So, let's also encourage kids to be lazy.   :


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## runormal (20 Jan 2016)

I honestly cannot believe where this world is going. I really do not want to have kids if this is how they will grow up.

Everyone isn`t a winner.
Everyone doesn`t like you.
Everyone can`t be what ever they want
You will have to work with people you don`t like.


I really don`t understand how this can go on forever. At what point do we go, we have made a huge mistake? If and when I have kids I`ll smash my kids partcipation medals, you don`t win... Too bad better luck next time and try harder. 

Like we have buble wrapped kids so much once they hit the real world they are going to have a rude awakening and will not be able to cope with it.


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## ModlrMike (20 Jan 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> Like we have bubble wrapped kids so much once they hit the real world they are going to have a rude awakening and will not be able to cope with it.



We're already there. I see these kids every day at work. You wouldn't believe the numbers of young adults being treated for anxiety. 

A product of their finally interacting with the real world where people don't change the standard, don't give them as many tries as it takes, and folks have no problem telling them no.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Jan 2016)

SERENITY NOW!!!!!


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Stand by, when I get on my laptop, I will post a great rebuttal to this from one of LGBTQ friends as this hits hard with them.

It's fear mongering and ignorance by many people.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Whoa Cowboy!!  [sorry, just had to]
> It's worse in Ontario my friend,.......make sure next time you get arrested to declare yourself female and get to spend a few nights in the women's jail.  Whatever you verbally self-identify as, is where you will go.......



I can't tell, are you being 100% serious?


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

So the post I have is in response to the Facebook post that is going around by Ezra Levant but it touches on the subjects that I am seeing on posts here.

"For my friends who continue to share the save our girls campaign. I want you to take a moment to actually read the legislation. More importantly I want you to remember that LGBTQQA* are real people. In fact I fit into that category. I get that change is scary but please stop being offensive. You are indirectly speaking about many people who are in your lives. If you read this entire post and still disagree with me please do us both a favor and remove me from your friends list.

This source is absolutely horrible. Ignoring the fact that the terminology used by this fellow is horrendous and the Caitlin Jenner comment is completely unnecessary, this fellow also seems to lack of knowledge about basic human rights. I will spare you the lesson on terminology.

1) The terms Mother and Father have been avoided by schools for more than 5 years now and it has nothing to do with transgender or LGBTQQA movements. Using only the terms mother and father or even the words parents is presumptuous. Not all students live with both of their parents, or even one parent for that matter. Terms like "family of" or "Caregiver" are far more universal. What if that student lives with their grandparents or a foster family or even a relative or step parent? This includes everyone. If a line on an emergency contact form reads Mother or Father it assumes that the mother or father and only the mother or father of that child is the emergency contact. Is it not far more appropriate to say Caregiver or simply just emergency contact?

2) Please take a moment to actually read this entire document for yourself. Ezra speaks about it from a very skewed specific standpoint that is not in the least bit objective. What exactly is it that we are protecting our children from? There is nothing in this document that says that anyone is forced to be in an unsafe environment. Gender Identity does not mean that randomly out of nowhere one day a boy or girl can decide that they are the other gender and then switch back the following. Someone who uses this policy to claim to be the opposite gender as a means of breaking the law has some more serious problems that need to be addressed. Public washrooms are by no means guarded, anyone can enter and leave them at any time, criminals are not going look at the sign and not enter because they are not the specified gender they are going to disregard it and do what they please. Nowhere in this document does it say that boys may use the girl’s washroom. Nowhere does it say that girls can use the boys bathroom. It says that people can use whichever washroom coincides with the gender of which they identify. It does not allow girls to use the boy’s washroom and boys to use the girl’s washroom. If someone is saying that they identify with one gender over the other they are not the opposite gender. Throughout this whole video he refers to “boys in the girl’s washroom” this is not accurate. These people do not identify as boys. It also does not say that boy or girls can sleep in each other’s rooms on field trips. In fact it says, "School staff should make every reasonable effort to provide solutions that are inclusive, respectful and acceptable to the student and that do not impose any additional expense or burden for the student." The key point here is that it does not impose any additional cost for that student. A solution here could be their own hotel room as paid for by the trip with no additional cost to that student in question. 

3) There is a point about not being able to tell the parents about a student’s gender identity. THIS IS A BASIC RIGHT. School officials, teachers and especially councillors are bound by law to maintain student confidentiality on personal matters. If a student seeks council with an adult that they trust such as a teacher that teacher cannot share that information with anyone else. The only time they are allowed to disclose information to parents is if they are harming themselves or someone else or if they pose a threat or danger to themselves or someone else. If they are breaking rules and or are in trouble only then is that information that is disclosed. That being said a teacher or school official cannot "out" that student as gay or trans*. They can inform the parents or the violation and where it happened however sexual orientation and gender identity are separate of that event. This has partly to do with student confidentiality, partly to do with trust and personal privacy and partly to do with respect. Let me provide you with an example, as a parent would you rather your child tell you that they are LGBTQQA* or hear about it impersonally from someone with an opinion about it. Maybe you already know, do you need the school to tell you? Another example, I am gay, If someone had told my parents in a serious manner before I was ready for them to know I would have felt betrayed, disrespected and more likely to rebel or act out. In fact there is a good chance that I would not be alive. If that person is already struggling with their identity they do not need other people’s opinions and expectations of what is wrong and right. It can actually be detrimental to their mental health and development. There are very serious links between "outing" and suicide.

4) Do we assume that these people have no friends, no support system and that no one wants them around? Reasonable accommodation can be putting them in a room with their friends whom they hang out with and have sleepovers with already. Do we perhaps assume that these people are in fact not people at all? Really think about what you are supporting.

5) Comparing sex offenders to the LGBTQQA* community is absolutely ridiculous. These cases are few and far in between. I can find you far more cases from straight, cisgender mainstream society than I can in the LGBTQQA* community. This is exactly the same as saying people are going to use gay marriage for tax evasion and citizenship claims. Again these cases are few and far between and the perpetrators are mainstream people who do not identify as LGBTQQA*. These are highly publicized cases based on how they happened and in most cases they shouldn’t happen at all given the context that they happen in, but isn’t that most criminal cases?

6) Why are you blaming the NDP? They are not the first government to put this into practice, hence why it is entitled “best practices”. There were a number of petitions and rally’s during the time that the conservatives were in office the NDP just happen to be the government in power who actually passed it."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I can't tell, are you being 100% serious?



Yup.....


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Strike said:
			
		

> And then there's this:
> 
> So, let's also encourage kids to be lazy.   :



Or perhaps they mean credits for being a part of a junior roller derby team (or other sport team) and doing more physical activity in a week than you'd ever see in a school?


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

http://www.metronews.ca/news/calgary/2016/01/19/gender-issue-criticism-out-of-hand-says-teachers-assn.html


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## Strike (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Or perhaps they mean credits for being a part of a junior roller derby team (or other sport team) and doing more physical activity in a week than you'd ever see in a school?



Reread the statement:



> Students who do not feel comfortable in a group setting should also be given the option for "*independent study* to earn physical education credits," the document advises.



It doesn't say option for physical activity in another setting.  It says "study," as in sedentary activity.

I see where you're going with your point but that's not what was said in the article.

As for the rest, I currently don't have a dog in the fight so I don't really have a say either way.  But I am glad that this is coming about in a public setting so that transitions like this on the CAF side might be a bit easier since the newer recruits would have grown up with it.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Understood, but the term "study" can be fairly broad. I'd rather a student be allowed time to study in a comfortable environment that be forced to participate in an environment that they are bullied or don't feel safe in.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2016)

Interesting post Bzzliteyr. 

I picked out a few points below. (Realize you're cutting and pasting the comment, I never read the article this is responding to)



> If you read this entire post and still disagree with me please do us both a favor and remove me from your friends list.


Someone can't stay on their friends list for the sin of disagreeing? I'd tell them to piss off and happily remove them.



> 1) The terms Mother and Father have been avoided by schools for more than 5 years now and it has nothing to do with transgender or LGBTQQA movements.
> //
> Is it not far more appropriate to say Caregiver or simply just emergency contact?


I agree with the latter it does make sense. I've never heard anyone accuse the LGBTQQA  community for being the catalyst behind that.



> Gender Identity does not mean that randomly out of nowhere one day a boy or girl can decide that they are the other gender and then switch back the following.


Sure it does. That's the whole premise behind _picking_ an identity. I feel like I'm a girl, who the hell are YOU to tell me I don't feel that way? If a girl decides tomorrow she self-identifies as a boy for a week then decides to change back is someone going to say no way, you wanted to be a boy now you're stuck being a boy? Not a chance.



> Nowhere in this document does it say that boys may use the girl’s washroom. Nowhere does it say that girls can use the boys bathroom. It says that people can use whichever washroom coincides with the gender of which they identify.


That's just semantics.  The context is someone who is medically a male, not what someone thinks they are or wants to be.



> These people do not identify as boys.


And this is guaranteed to comfort women?  A 6'3 250lb physically male student identifies as a woman so women, who both identify as women and are physically women should just deal with it? Or get special bathrooms of their own?  I don't know where an appropriate balance would be but that doesn't sound like it.  Maybe schools should have 3 different washrooms. Or 8.



> A solution here could be their own hotel room as paid for by the trip with no additional cost to that student in question.


This won't get abused. 



> 3) There is a point about not being able to tell the parents about a student’s gender identity. THIS IS A BASIC RIGHT.


Does this fall under the charter of rights and freedoms?  Everyone likes to talk about their rights but is it an actual right in the legal sense?




> 5) Comparing sex offenders to the LGBTQQA* community is absolutely ridiculous. These cases are few and far in between. I can find you far more cases from straight, cisgender mainstream society than I can in the LGBTQQA* community. This is exactly the same as saying people are going to use gay marriage for tax evasion and citizenship claims. Again these cases are few and far between and the perpetrators are mainstream people who do not identify as LGBTQQA*. These are highly publicized cases based on how they happened and in most cases they shouldn’t happen at all given the context that they happen in, but isn’t that most criminal cases?


I'm not sure the comments this is responding too but I can imagine. No disagreement here.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Jarnhamar, I understand all your replies. 

The thing that gets me and I saw a post about on Facebook is a tweet that sums it up (and I have to paraphrase because I can't find it)

"You've been sharing bathrooms with gays, transgendered people your whole life, you just didn't know it, this isn't a new thing"


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Someone can't stay on their friends list for the sin of disagreeing? I'd tell them to piss off and happily remove them.



...and there is the BIGGEST problem.  If you'll pardon the expression, "they" want total 'hands off'.  Equality just isn't good enough....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> "You've been sharing bathrooms with gays, transgendered people your whole life, you just didn't know it, this isn't a new thing"



Yup,...so who is making it an issue??  Hmmm....


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

The entire problem with this whole situation is NOT the LGBTQQA community - it's the ability of these recommendations to be bent to the twisted mentality of those who want to use them for their own purposes.

*You really think some school kids are not going to use this to cause havoc?  *

If that is truly what you believe, then I know one thing for sure: I work in the education system, and you either don't, or you are living in a dream world.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and there is the BIGGEST problem.  If you'll pardon the expression, "they" want total 'hands off'.  Equality just isn't good enough....



I believe the author of this meant that if you disagree with their lifestyle choices and don't agree that things are misrepresented then you can leave? Maybe it was badly expressed? "They" want to not live in fear. I think it's a fair thing to expect out of life.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yup,...so who is making it an issue??  Hmmm....



Well, the LGBTQ community and some normal people are looking at things in life and asking "why do we have to have ladies and mens washrooms?" "Why do we need to have boys and girls toys?" "Why do I have to be a boy or a girl? Can't I just be human?" Others were born as boys but feel better and safer and confident identifying as a girl. So what? How does it change anything if they identify that way?

Really, what does it matter if the person shi**ing beside you in the washroom has a penis or vagina?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I believe the author of this meant that if you disagree with their lifestyle choices and don't agree that things are misrepresented then you can leave? Maybe it was badly expressed? "They" want to not live in fear. I think it's a fair thing to expect out of life.



Bullshit........make the same joke using a heterosexual and then a homosexual and see which one causes 'moral outrage'.
True equality must come with the ability to take a shot also...........


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Bullshit........make the same joke using a heterosexual and then a homosexual and see which one causes 'moral outrage'.
> True equality must come with the ability to take a shot also...........



Or maybe being considerate of other's feelings is a better approach? I'm not sure equally offending people is something to strive for?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Really, what does it matter if the person shi**ing beside you in the washroom has a penis or vagina?



Zero.......to me.  But then I'd kick the frig out of the guy/girl peering over the stall at me........my daughters not so much maybe.
Oh wait.....that couldn't happen in Utopia.....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Or maybe being considerate of other's feelings is a better approach? I'm not sure equally offending people is something to strive for?



....and you've never watched a stand-up comic I'm assuming??
I guess they only use animal jokes...no wait, we have PETA here tonight. Sorry, shows cancelled.......


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

And lets make this perfectly clear.   I have no issue with how anyone wishes to live.

BUT WE ARE ALL EQUAL.........for good things and bad things.  [yes Buzz, that can mean being on the wrong side of a decent joke]


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Zero.......to me.  But then I'd kick the frig out of the guy/girl peering over the stall at me........my daughters not so much maybe.
> Oh wait.....that couldn't happen in Utopia.....



The point on this is people suggesting that it's "the gays" that will be the ones peeping over the stall, or that someone will only gender identify one way so they can peep...Which is ridiculous


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> or that someone will only gender identify one way so they can peep...Which is ridiculous



See?  You lose me here laddie.......during my teenage years I would have done just that to cause trouble.  And like the poster in education stated above, if you don't think that will happen then I got land for sale just for you.

Edit for clarity....teenage for me  11-15.  My being an asshole caught up to me at 16 and I grew up fast.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Yes, there will be people that abuse certain things, as there are with any rules or laws. 

The key thing will be for the many many more people whose lives will be improved with the new rules.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Yes, there will be people that abuse certain things, as there are with any rules or laws.
> 
> The key thing will be for the many many more people whose lives will be improved with the new rules.



So I guess if a person is two spirit they can use whatever facility\ shower\ changeroom, etc that they wish, irregardless of actual physical gender, whenever they wish depending on how they feel that day?


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

Yes that's it. You've clearly made sense of all the confusion!!

On a side note, this: 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/martina-groeneveld-emard/about-alberta-schools-and-the-guidelines-for-best-practices/10153242655762407


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Understood, but the term "study" can be fairly broad. I'd rather a student be allowed time to study in a comfortable environment that be forced to participate in an environment that they are bullied or don't feel safe in.



That makes sense about the bullying. I'm not sure how it is now but from my own personal experience in a co-ed gym class most of the females (and some males too) would basically stand there and say this is fucking stupid the whole period. Didn't lift a finger to get involved and they would still pass.

Is it fair to give these kids a credit in gym if they don't physically partake in the gym class? Is it fair for the teacher to have to go above and beyond the normal lesson plans and come up with independent studies for students, and extra work and time grading them?

Why not just remove them from "gym" and put them in another subject they can partake in?



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Jarnhamar, I understand all your replies.
> 
> The thing that gets me and I saw a post about on Facebook is a tweet that sums it up (and I have to paraphrase because I can't find it)
> "You've been sharing bathrooms with gays, transgendered people your whole life, you just didn't know it, this isn't a new thing"





			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yup,...so who is making it an issue??  Hmmm....


Thanks Bzzliteyr.
I'm leaning towards Bruce on this one. Who's making it an issue if it's been going on for years?

I don't think the issue is so much the bathroom. The Royal Canadian Dragoons have shared bathrooms in their shacks and there doesn't seem to be any issues. (Though I can see see young adults being uncomfortable in shared bathrooms).
I'd guess the issue is more about change rooms and showers.



			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Well, the LGBTQ community and some normal people are looking at things in life and asking "why do we have to have ladies and mens washrooms?" "Why do we need to have boys and girls toys?" "Why do I have to be a boy or a girl? Can't I just be human?" Others were born as boys but feel better and safer and confident identifying as a girl. So what? How does it change anything if they identify that way?



I'd say it's over looking the humans that DO identify with being male or female and risking marginalizing them.  I've seen a number of comments online where people are saying "the tables have turned, how do you like it?!".
Having "the tables turn" isn't a positive outcome.


Do biological males or females who don't feel comfortable sharing change rooms and facilities with members of the oposite sex no longer get a say? Is their feelings on the issue unimportant?


I find the whole thing ironic considering we seem to accept segregation based on gender for religious purposes.
Female only swimming time schedules so they won't show their bodies to males.
Males likewise making demands about not having women present, for religious reasons. (can't think of an example off the top of my head)

I'm waiting for the biological male who identifies as female to fight to be in a religious-prompted women only environment.




Not being insensitive but could we be going a bit overboard with this gender and lifestyle stuff?
Agender, genderless, androgyne, bigender, cisgender, cissexual, genderqueer, intersex, non-binary, pangender, trigender, Third gender/Third sex, Trans man, Trans woman etc..


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2016)

Anyone that's been deployed with a Scandinavian country will find that all facilities, shitters, showers and saunas, are gender neutral and these same facilities are used by both genders at the same time. A la Starship Troopers.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

I just posted something that applies to a couple of the points you mention.

I see your point about the religious crazies flipping out on this stuff but isn't that where acceptance through education helps with change?

There was a time when *GASP* black people couldn't sit at the front of busses, some people pushed for change and today (in some places) we can't imagine that something as barbaric as that happened!!


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> The key thing will be for the many many more people whose lives will be improved with the new rules.



By catering to the minority?  No, you're wrong.  Dead wrong.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

RDJP said:
			
		

> By catering to the minority?  No, you're wrong.  Dead wrong.



Really? If people start treating all people better because a minority group changed the way some things are done?


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Really? If people start treating all people better because a minority group changed the way some things are done?



Yes, really.  If the majority now has to change everything due to a minority, then no, it does not become better for "many many more people".

In a years time, just ask the female athletes when a bunch of Gr. 12 6 foot+ 200lb + male trouble makers across the country start identifying as junior female athletes.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I just posted something that applies to a couple of the points you mention.


Thanks brother, I'll have a read of it!



> I see your point about the religious crazies flipping out on this stuff but *isn't that where acceptance through education helps with change?*


With religion, specifically Islam? No.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

So, the 6 foot 200 pound female should be forced to go play with boys? 

Or maybe, as has been suggested in some sports, weight classes may be a better way of doing things?

I play roller derby. I play with trans people. They are players, they are not "male" or "female" in my eyes. They are "teammate" or "opposing team" in my eyes, because what exists between their legs, who they have relations with doesn't matter to me...

I'll admit, my eyes were not as open three years ago as they are these days but having been a part of a sport that educates and understands how  things work has been very helpful.


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So, the 6 foot 200 pound female should be forced to go play with boys?
> 
> Or maybe, as has been suggested in some sports, weight classes may be a better way of doing things?
> 
> ...



You playing roller derby on a school team?

Edit: Further to that, are you in school still?  Just because you understand how the system works _as an adult _does not mean that _non-adult students_ will not take advantage of it to cause havoc.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

RDJP said:
			
		

> You playing roller derby on a school team?
> 
> Edit: Further to that, are you in school still?  Just because you understand how the system works _as an adult _does not mean that _non-adult students_ will not take advantage of it to cause havoc.



And you're suggesting that teachers are stupid and won't realise that they're being played? 

I'm saying to suggest that a 6 foot 200 pound person is only dangerous because they are male is a silly thing.


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And you're suggesting that teachers are stupid and won't realise that they're being played?



Doesn't make a difference when there is a policy in place that can be played with.



> I'm saying to suggest that a 6 foot 200 pound person is only dangerous because they are male is a silly thing.



No, you were stating that this would be better for "many many more people". I'm simply providing one example of where someone who wishes to cause trouble could easily do so, affecting a great many people and providing an undesirable outcome for the majority.  If it is truly a transgender issue, then the cards play out how they play out.  But these policies open up a dangerous Pandora's box that can be manipulated easily.


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## shootemup604 (20 Jan 2016)

I could care less, but I'd like to have some identifier on the door so I know where the urinals are...


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## PuckChaser (20 Jan 2016)

At some point, do we just stop referring to people by pronouns, and names, and use strictly numbers? Is this new guideline for elementary students as well? My 5 year old can't figure out that staying up late means he's super tired in the morning, but he apparently can make complex decisions on his gender identity and sexual orientation?

At what point do we just stop pretending everyone is a special flower? How does a teacher notify parents when one kid gets wise and "self identifies as female" so he can hang out and change with all the girls at 12 or 14 years old? I'm willing to bet that teacher may have suspicions he's playing the system, but can't/won't say a damn thing because they don't want to get fired.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> At some point, do we just stop referring to people by pronouns, and names, and use strictly numbers? Is this new guideline for elementary students as well? My 5 year old can't figure out that staying up late means he's super tired in the morning, but he apparently can make complex decisions on his gender identity and sexual orientation?
> 
> At what point do we just stop pretending everyone is a special flower? How does a teacher notify parents when one kid gets wise and "self identifies as female" so he can hang out and change with all the girls at 12 or 14 years old? I'm willing to bet that teacher may have suspicions he's playing the system, but can't/won't say a damn thing because they don't want to get fired.



Well, I would think the teacher would respect the child/teacher privacy that already exists? This is not a new "special flower rule". See my post (#34) above where the poster does a great job of breaking it down. Most things are about not being assholes and her post makes sense of all this.


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> At some point, do we just stop referring to people by pronouns, and names, and use strictly numbers? Is this new guideline for elementary students as well? My 5 year old can't figure out that staying up late means he's super tired in the morning, but he apparently can make complex decisions on his gender identity and sexual orientation?
> 
> At what point do we just stop pretending everyone is a special flower? How does a teacher notify parents when one kid gets wise and "self identifies as female" so he can hang out and change with all the girls at 12 or 14 years old? I'm willing to bet that teacher may have suspicions he's playing the system, but can't/won't say a damn thing because they don't want to get fired.



Bravo....you totally understand our frustration.  What happens when the first guy who gets arrested asks to be strip-searched by a female officer?  Or the opposite?  42 year old male predator "self-identifies" as a female so he can be the female liaison for a girl's volleyball team?  Public hockey rink changing rooms become totally co-ed? Male teacher enters the girl's change room at the pool but it's okay because he "self-identifies as a female"?


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Jan 2016)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Bravo....you totally understand our frustration.  What happens when the first guy who gets arrested asks to be strip-searched by a female officer?  Or the opposite?  42 year old male predator "self-identifies" as a female so he can be the female liaison for a girl's volleyball team?  Public hockey rink changing rooms become totally co-ed? Male teacher enters the girl's change room at the pool but it's okay because he "self-identifies as a female"?



With the hassle in the world these days for being gay or trans, do you really think people will be lining up to self identify in another gender?

Having a friend that has been through all the bullshit involved with it, I can tell you it's not an easy process and acceptance doesn't come at the drop of a hat. This isn't as simple as saying "I'm a girl" one day then "I'm a boy" the next. Sadly, until you've been exposed to it, you can't understand what it is like.

I challenge you to educate yourself about what life is like for Transgendered people and you'll realise it's not as rosy as you seem to think.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Bravo....you totally understand our frustration.  What happens when the first guy who gets arrested asks to be strip-searched by a female officer?



It's already past that........from friends who work there, last month there were two 100% males [anatomically and one even with a beard] at the Vanier jail for women.   Self-identified as women and that's where they ended up.....


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## Kat Stevens (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> With the hassle in the world these days for being gay or trans, do you really think people will be lining up to self identify in another gender?
> 
> Having a friend that has been through all the bullshit involved with it, I can tell you it's not an easy process and acceptance doesn't come at the drop of a hat. This isn't as simple as saying "I'm a girl" one day then "I'm a boy" the next. Sadly, until you've been exposed to it, you can't understand what it is like.
> 
> I challenge you to educate yourself about what life is like for Transgendered people and you'll realise it's not as rosy as you seem to think.



Yes, it does, because this guide tells you you can't impose your gender bias on another.  Therefore, one can wake up feeling particularly girly today, and go attend women's naked swim time, then the next day decide you're quite burly after all and go scrimmage with the self declared male football team.  Nobody has the right to tell you otherwise, according to this.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jan 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yes, it does, because this guide tells you you can't impose your gender bias on another.  Therefore, one can wake up feeling particularly girly today, and go attend women's naked swim time, then the next day decide you're quite burly after all and go scrimmage with the self declared male football team.  Nobody has the right to tell you otherwise, according to this.




As in being two-spirit, where switching back and forth is normal.


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## PuckChaser (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> With the hassle in the world these days for being gay or trans, do you really think people will be lining up to self identify in another gender?



Absolutely I think people will. Its now popular to be part of the LBGTLMNOP community. Kids, especially teens, want to fit in with society see the massive press coverage someone gets on TMZ for being "different". Are we not at the point now where people are people, and being "different" is something the LBGTQ community wants, because it justifies the parades and telethons, and news articles everytime someone famous says something? Shouldn't they be content that we don't identify anyone with a special tag based on whatever sexual orientation they are, and just treat them as a normal human being?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> a normal human being?



Not good enough.....


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## Maxadia (20 Jan 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I challenge you to educate yourself about what life is like for Transgendered people and you'll realise it's not as rosy as you seem to think.



I challenge you to spend a week in a school system and then still think that all the little duckies are going to line up in a row just like your imagination leads you to believe.

No one, NO ONE, is saying that anyone transgendered is going to be causing an issue. However, the policies that have been suggested to be put into place WILL leave things wide open for the system to be abused.  THAT'S THE ISSUE.


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Jan 2016)

From what I have seen with the gay community here in Vancouver is there a radical element that is in a state of perpetual outrage and always searching for a vehicle to propel that outrage. Further along the spectrum you have the “visible gays” who like to show it off, but mostly just to have fun and generally these one have a very volatile lifestyle with a lot of parties, relationship upheaval and questionable moral stance. Then there are the “silent gays”. These ones are quite content with the way society has gone and basically got what they wanted which is gay marriage/civil union, equal rights on legal matters and minimal threat to their safety. I know personally 2 couples in the latter group and have had many interactions with the other 2 groups. I have had one of the couples express embarrassment and disgust with the lack of morals displayed at “gay resorts” where loyalty to your partner is not important and other behaviours. As one of them put it, I am gay, not a scumbag. They are comfortable with who they are, they won’t hide it, nor will they flaunt it.
As for transgenders, at the previous church my wife was attending, they went do this road and opened all the washrooms, now instead of having 1-2 people uncomfortable, you now have a 100+, I also expect it to slowly drain their membership as people don’t feel they can complain about it without being labeled. I know the young transgender kid they were trying to accommodate, and she has parents who are female gays, one of them with a large dose of “man-hate”. The kid is a bit more male than female, but I suspect is afraid to be male because “Mom” hates males, even though the Mom does love the child, I suspect the message seeps through without that being the intent, kids are very good at picking up vibes. I feel for this child, because the Mom is pushing the church to adapt to her child, rather than building up the child to be able to navigate through the hurdles of adult life. Public school and life is going to be hell for this kid and others like them who don’t learn how to survive.     My wife pulled the pin on that place and goes elsewhere, funny enough a Christian church with a gay female minister .


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## RocketRichard (20 Jan 2016)

It will all sort out. We in education, the kids and the parents will adapt.  The sky is not falling...


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## ballz (20 Jan 2016)

I have never understood why this bathroom thing is so hard to solve. Is it so hard for society to just start build public bathrooms as private stalls with its own sink and mirror in it, and this "problem" ceases to exist? 

I've always better enjoyed my trips to the loo when I couldn't see someone else's shoes underneath the stall next to me anyway, even more so when a few of the other 4 senses aren't triggered.


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## runormal (20 Jan 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> I have never understood why this bathroom thing is so hard to solve. Is it so hard for society to just start build public bathrooms as private stalls with its own sink and mirror in it, and this "problem" ceases to exist?



A few issues,

Lots of places where built before this "problem" became mainstream and accepted and thus would be cost prohibitive to renovate washrooms to benefit a few whereas I'd argue a greater portion of students would be benefited by buying new textbooks.

Point two I'd argue this is an legitimate security issue by building individual washrooms. Teachers can't easily survey the washrooms, as you could easily smoke, do drugs, deal drugs, have sex/fool around. 

While you could say lets build 1 or two gender neutral bath rooms if said washroom is closer than the boys/girls bathroom, guess what I'm now going to be trans. Then the people who need it won't be able to use it.. 

It is a very delicate situation imo.


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## ballz (20 Jan 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> Point two I'd argue this is an legitimate security issue by building individual washrooms. Teachers can't easily survey the washrooms, as you could easily smoke, do drugs, deal drugs, have sex/fool around.



I wasn't specifically talking about schools, I meant public areas in general... malls... airports... restaurants... but yes, I still think schools.... I think some of those concerns are a bit waaay heavy on the "sheltering the children" variety.


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## runormal (20 Jan 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> I wasn't specifically talking about schools, I meant public areas in general... malls... airports... restaurants... but yes, I still think schools.... I think some of those concerns are a bit waaay heavy on the "sheltering the children" variety.



Trust me I'm all for kids climbing trees, falling down and breaking their arm at recess. I've went from wooden playground equipment, to wooden/plastic equipment to minimal equipment "because it isn't safe". I grew up in the 90's-00's. 

People did all of the above in my high-school washrooms (because it is one if not the only the place without cameras). I really don't see how making individual complete washrooms would make it any better. Of course kids will also do all of the above, but I could only see it being worse by creating said washrooms. Likewise I still argue that in terms of schools money would be much better spent on providing newer learning aids, ideally textbooks. 

Wouldn't the easier solution be to remain the status quo in terms of infrastructure and just make everything gender neutral? Urinals are a landmine (I think?) because someone would _likely _complain that men are being over favored as well. I know that gender neutral washrooms exist in Europe.


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## RedcapCrusader (21 Jan 2016)

I've dealt with more women committing to lewd and criminal acts in Men's Washrooms more than the opposite.

Honestly, the easiest solution is not the best solution for everyone. It will take generational change to create the perfect and safe environment that we seek. 

I believe UToronto are already dealing with issues with unisex/transgender friendly Washrooms and are going back to Male/Female Washrooms due to a voyeurism issue.

I believe personally that the easiest solution is to leave the Washrooms alone, and let the people use whatever washroom they wish and deal with the trouble makers as they come up. 

It's almost the same thing with badges, instead of taking away badges from everyone, just deal with those that abuse it as theu come up. You'd be surprised at how little of an issue it really is, rather than punishing everyone as a whole and making it out to be a pandemic.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2016)

So we need to accommodate various LGBBTTQAA lifestyles and identities in school.  That's good.  

But what about people who identify as animals? (more accurately "animals" that are stuck in human bodies).   AKA Otherkin.

If someone is a Panromantic Bi-gender (non-binary) genderqueer who identifies as both Wolf-kin and Fox-Kin (but cat-hearted in the latter) should we not also support their animal identities and support any special requirements they have?
Is it fair to have a deer-kin student in class with a bunch of wolf-kin if the deer-kin is intimidated and feels it's an unsafe environment for hir? Should we set hir up with their own classroom and a separate teacher?  Should bat-kin be offered night classes which are more inline with their biological clock and nocturnal temperament?  Dog-kin may piss on bushes or growl at meat, are we violating their rights by interfering? 

I'm sure I sound sardonic but this is really a thing.  Since it appears we can decide what our own gender is and how we will be interacted with thus (like Bruce's example of bearded biological males in female prisons) it only stands to reason I can identify as a bear (and maybe sniff around for extra leave so I can hibernate).


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## Humphrey Bogart (21 Jan 2016)

We've lost the plot, that is all.


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## Maxadia (21 Jan 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> I have never understood why this bathroom thing is so hard to solve. Is it so hard for society to just start build public bathrooms as private stalls with its own sink and mirror in it, and this "problem" ceases to exist?



When you look at it that way it is hard to understand.

When you realize that no one is really asking for private stalls to be built, or existing bathrooms to be modified, but rather to be able to choose whatever bathroom you like _as they are currently laid out_, then you can see where there might be issues.


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## Eaglelord17 (21 Jan 2016)

Well this makes the discussion more military related, and might show where the military might be heading in a couple years once the current generation of kids grow up.

http://terminallance.com/2016/01/08/terminal-lance-new-corps/


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2016)

Dr John Money [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money] is a sexologist/psychologist who it seems is credited with pioneering the whole sex doesn't equal gender, sexual identity biology of gender thing.

The case it looks like he bases his theories and work from is from a Canadian man, David Reimer who ended up with quite the tragic story. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer]


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## a_majoor (21 Jan 2016)

Of course this is not about "safe" bathrooms or any of the other nonsense being spouted by the supporters, but rather about power. They will define what is acceptable and force you to comply (women who object to having biological males in their washrooms are already becoming victims to this).

The only real way to deal with this is to either make multiple small, individual bathrooms which only accommodate one person at a time (in which case the sign only says "occupied" or "vacant", or put a sign on bathroom doors saying XX or XY, and you _will_ use the washroom according to your chromosomes, not what you might want to imagine.

The actual result of this is a small minority of people are going to run into reality in the form of violent expulsion from the "wrong" washrooms. I can only imagine the "human rights" hearing where Muslim women forcibly ejected a biological male from their washroom (and most likely delivered a severe beating in the process).


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## Maxadia (21 Jan 2016)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IJH5AR0CuRI


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## McG (4 Apr 2016)

And DND follows:



> New DND offices will have gender-neutral toilets
> Amanda Connolly
> iPolitics
> 04 Apr 2016
> ...


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## Nfld Sapper (4 Apr 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> And DND follows:



 :facepalm:


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## Journeyman (4 Apr 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> .....half were female while the other half were male.


Well, it looks like "rehabilitation" is coming along equally.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Apr 2016)

Um, I was at the hospital in Kingston not too long ago, waiting for a German student to finish his medical appointment. 

The washrooms there are in use BY ALL GENDERS!!!!! Yep, a single washroom with a single toilet that can be used by both genders. Flush after use. They have existed for many years. Yep, there's a feminine hygiene box beside the toilet, I didn't use it. I survived.

OMGWTFJTF2NINJAPANIC.

Also, I am not sure if some of you have considered the other issues with the gender friendly washrooms: Who is going to check your junk?

What if you, as a male, identifying as a male, go into a men's washroom and someone there feels you aren't the "real thing"? They'll ask you to prove it? Call the police so that they can prove it? Make you whip out your penis? Have you thought about YOUR rights in this case? You're asking/suggesting the same thing for trans people when it doesn't matter.

I personally don't care what your junk is... I have used gender neutral washrooms in many places, once you get used to it, you don't even notice it. I have been standing at a urinal, pissing while a female was behind me washing their hands at a sink after usinig the stall to take a dump/piss. Who cares?

Also, you have been using washrooms with transgendered/gay/straight people forever, you just didn't know it.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Apr 2016)

I'll be offended of these gender neutral washrooms have urinals in them.  I also plan to _raise a stink_ in Wainwright this year when I come across a portable toilet that has female written across the door (or padre, cook, medics).


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Apr 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'll be offended of these gender neutral washrooms have urinals in them.  I also plan to _raise a stink_ in Wainwright this year when I come across a portable toilet that has female written across the door (or padre, cook, medics).



Oh dang, I hadn't even thought about the fact that we (the army at least) have been using gender neutral porta potties for decades.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Apr 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'll be offended of these gender neutral washrooms have urinals in them.  I also plan to _raise a stink_ in Wainwright this year when I come across a portable toilet that has female written across the door (or padre, cook, medics).



While I don't particularly care where the padre craps, special attention should be given to the latrine facilities for cooks and medics.  Ever hear the adage "don't s**t where you eat".  Well, you shouldn't shit where the guys/gals who prepare your food shit.  The same goes with separating patients and medical staff.  It has to do with infection control.


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## kratz (4 Apr 2016)

The residence at NSCC is undergoing renovation to it's first bathroom (1 of 8), and both the new bathroom and the current one on that floor are gender neutral. The bathrooms in the rest on the campus or the other 13 campuses have not been reassigned....yet.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Apr 2016)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Oh dang, I hadn't even thought about the fact that we (the army at least) have been using gender neutral porta potties for decades.


We sure have.  I love the idea of gender neutral bathrooms at work. I hate when you have 400 men with access to 6 toilets and 8 women with access to 6 toilets.  It's time we end women's monopoly on coveted washroom space.



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> While I don't particularly care where the padre craps, special attention should be given to the latrine facilities for cooks and medics.  Ever hear the adage "don't s**t where you eat".  Well, you shouldn't shit where the guys/gals who prepare your food shit.  The same goes with separating patients and medical staff.  It has to do with infection control.



You got me there 100%  Medical staff and cooks should have their own segregated facilities for infection control, segregated being the key word though.


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## Bzzliteyr (5 Apr 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We sure have.  I love the idea of gender neutral bathrooms at work. I hate when you have 400 men with access to 6 toilets and 8 women with access to 6 toilets.  It's time we end women's monopoly on coveted washroom space.
> 
> You got me there 100%  Medical staff and cooks should have their own segregated facilities for infection control, segregated being the key word though.



Oh, now you're promoting SEGREGATION?!?!?

Wait till the media sees this.


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## mariomike (8 Jun 2016)

This four-page discussion does not seem to be limited to Alberta schools, so this is how they do it in New York City,
http://www.nyc.gov/html/cchr/html/coverage/be-you-nyc.shtml


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## mariomike (30 Jul 2016)

July 29, 2016

Meanwhile, back in Alberta,

Alberta bouncer decries ‘hateful bigot’ label in birth gender bathroom controversy
http://globalnews.ca/news/2856673/alberta-bouncer-decries-hateful-bigot-label-in-birth-gender-bathroom-controversy/
Peter Smith claims Rising, a transgender female, identified herself as male when she entered the Corona Tavern in Medicine Hat. But Rising said that’s not the case.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Jul 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> July 29, 2016
> 
> Meanwhile, back in Alberta,
> 
> ...






> Rising said she didn’t realize the situation would escalate to such a “big thing” and said she’s learning from the experience



I love when people get butts hurt and post about it on social media then act surprised when people go berserk. 

'I didn't want anyone to make a big deal about it.  I'm surprised.   I didn't know this would happen etc.. '
Uh huh


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## mariomike (20 Oct 2016)

Reading about the student at UConn who got ran over the other day and came across this story. It seems that unisex washrooms may make it easier for some ( alleged ) perversion,

Man Videotaped Women in Bathroom Stalls at UConn Law Library: Police
http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Man-Accused-of-Videotaping-Women-in-Bathroom-Stalls-at-UConn-Library-397611581.html
"...a unisex bathroom..."


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## Brad Sallows (20 Oct 2016)

Predictable and predicted.  Sex offenders don't just jump up one day and start violating corpses - they progress from level to level as each thrill wears out.  Finding excuses to hang out around girls and/or women in washrooms is just a step on that journey.

The safety of girls and women should never be traded off for a tiny increment of self-esteem for the gender fluid.  Sharing a washroom with "others" is not a sacrifice; sharing a washroom with predators is.


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## mariomike (20 Oct 2016)

There are women-only passenger cars,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-only_passenger_car

Makes no sense to me that they should be forced to give up their ladies rooms.


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## Flavus101 (20 Oct 2016)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-resident-denied-haircut-at-barbershop-because-of-gender-1.3814318

Not directly related, yet I found it relevant to the discussion. 

I view this in the way of, you wouldn't ask a cabinet maker to build you a pool table even though they are both expert woodworkers. 

A barber who takes pride in their work and does not feel comfortable in their ability to cut a woman's hair and have an end result that meets the barbers expectations of himself is a barber I would go to. It is the same as if a man walked into a salon and the hairstylists there did not feel that they could cut the man's hair to the quality that they deem necessary.

Which as a side story actually happened to one of my friends in Ottawa. He was looking to get his haircut and we happened to be walking by a salon (doing a course up there and didn't really know the area so stopped at the first place that could cut hair  ;D). He walked in and asked if they could do what he wanted and they said that they weren't really comfortable doing it and pointed us in the direction of a barber shop a few blocks over.


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## mariomike (20 Oct 2016)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-resident-denied-haircut-at-barbershop-because-of-gender-1.3814318



Looks like all she needs is a basic haircut. 

"Ottawa barbershop won't cut woman's hair"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/95355.0


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## quadrapiper (21 Oct 2016)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> Which as a side story actually happened to one of my friends in Ottawa. He was looking to get his haircut and we happened to be walking by a salon (doing a course up there and didn't really know the area so stopped at the first place that could cut hair  ;D). He walked in and asked if they could do what he wanted and they said that they weren't really comfortable doing it and pointed us in the direction of a barber shop a few blocks over.


Which speaks to a distinction in tools, training, and experience relevant to two different sets of styles: the woman in question, though, has a "barbershop" haircut, not a salon one. #x on the sides, tidy up on top, gel it. This is, to run with your analogy, a cabinet maker who usually does kitchen work being asked to build the same thing for a bathroom.

If I had Fabio-esque locks and wanted the dye/heat/etc. treatment, I wouldn't bother a barber: would be much more inclined to go to a salon.


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## Lightguns (21 Oct 2016)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-resident-denied-haircut-at-barbershop-because-of-gender-1.3814318
> 
> Not directly related, yet I found it relevant to the discussion.
> 
> ...



I always enjoy how this generation is so good at setting up the complaint in the media:

*"[They said] we don't do women's haircuts," she said. "I did get emotional because it does bring up past experiences that I've had."*

It's like there is a SJW school of offence they all graduate from.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I always enjoy how this generation is so good at setting up the complaint in the media:
> 
> *"[They said] we don't do women's haircuts," she said. "I did get emotional because it does bring up past experiences that I've had."*



Followed by "How did he even know I'm a woman?".   

Maybe it's because I cut my own hair but a human rights tribunal for a haircut seems like over kill to me. Shouldn't she just try to character assassinate this guy on Facebook and get his store windows smashed out and be done with it?


Laura Southern took about 10 minutes to get her gender legally changed to male.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGpZSefYvwM
I had no idea it was that easy. Maybe school nurses in Alberta could be delegated the authority to sign off on a students gender when they show up for school.


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## mariomike (21 Oct 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Looks like all she needs is a basic haircut.



I'm sure the place I go could have accommodated her.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Oct 2016)

#hairprivilage
The struggle is real.


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