# "3 Block War" Training Center?



## Chags (11 Apr 2005)

"down on one knee" vs "prone"

"Momentum" vs "cover from fire"  

interesting dilemma..  we'll see what works best when you come to CMTC, won't we...?


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## GO!!! (12 Apr 2005)

Chags,
     Just a few Qs on the new establishment in Wx...
     
Is CMTC even operational yet?

Is it applicable for Light forces (can we be tracked and plotted with any accuracy?) Or is it more geared towards mechanised ops?

What is your response to the statement "With CMTC, we are within 5 years of being able to train to fight the Cold War"

And finally, with our dearth of strategic tpt, is there any reason to train manoever forces to fight an EN that no longer exists, in equipment that we can't move anywhere, with an elected government that has no will to use us to our full potential? (I dont really expect a satisfactory answer to that one)

But seriously, can CMTC be used to hone skills that we need? (anti - ambush, urban ops/patrolling) Given that there is very little work out there for a mech BG, can it be re worked for Airborne/Air Mobile/SF type missions?

Thanks in advance for a response to questions that I'm sure you've answered before..


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> But seriously, can CMTC be used to hone skills that we need? (anti - ambush, urban ops/patrolling) Given that there is very little work out there for a mech BG, can it be re worked for Airborne/Air Mobile/SF type missions?



Good point - I'm sure the CMTC will have it's uses (just as the NTC in Ft Irwin does), but are we putting all of our eggs in one basket?  Should we be sending resources for training in an area other then a bald-ass prairie?


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## KevinB (12 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> but are we putting all of our eggs in one basket?   Should we be sending resources for training in an area other then a bald-ass prairie?



Of course we are its the Canadian way...

   I fully agree on the "cold war" mentality/relevance of CMTC as it appears to be set up (from firends posted there)


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

I think the way I understand the CMTC to be set-up can be very advantageous in many respects (of which were discussed throughout this thread) in terms of testing leadership, doctrine, using free-play, validating the command ability of officers, etc, etc - much like Ft. Irwin.

However, it seems to be honed in on "conventional" - we probably need a Canadian Unconventional Warfare Center that deals with cities, complex terrain, 4th Generation Warfare, 3-block war, etc, etc.


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## KevinB (12 Apr 2005)

Surprisingly the CF is wayyy ahead of you.

 CPC is turning into the Canadian Special Warfare Center (or words to that effect) the manning plan and all the other stuf is on the DIN.

Located in Trenton so no bald ass prarie...


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

Not that far ahead of me, I knew that already.    ;D

When I state "UWTC" I mean, as opposed to acting as a repository for "high-speed" individual courses, a training center that is capable of consistently rotating at least a unit (or even, like the CMTC, a Brigade Group) through a realistic "4th Generation Warfare" training area.  Are they planning for this as well?

Anyways, this is off the section attack topic, so it's getting moved.


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## KevinB (12 Apr 2005)

That appears to be the scope

 There will be cadre that will also be able to function as a self contained SOC unit


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## Chags (12 Apr 2005)

Sorry, it took so long to reply to all these questions..  I actually had work to do today..  PER season and all..

First off, let me tell you that the name CMTC is no longer accurate..  We've changed direction drastically since January.. We know the threat has changed..  I actually like the name of this thread and call it the 3BWTC..  too late I guess..  We are very much in tune with providing the framework for 3 block war scenarios..  We will have the flexibility with our OPFOR to throw a Combat team at you, or have para-military units, terrorists, suicide bombers and COB, etc.  We are also in the process of building a number of villages, farm compounds and even a cave system that will allow this type of training. We also have a fully instrumented town that is in its early planning stages.   We are trying to mimic situations that our TFs might encounter in Kabul, Darfur, etc..  

We will adapt with the changing threat.  As the CDS said, we are now training to fight the "snakes" but still have the capability to fight the "bear" if required.  The training will be as realistic as possible..  Units going into high-readiness will know where they are about to be deployed, and CMTC will be part of their TMST..

CMTC will be operational in Apr 06.  This is when he expect the first ROTO to come thru.  This summer (July-Aug) is the second level of system acceptance tests..  A coy gr from 1 VP (with Ldsh) will prove the first vehicles.  

Both mech and light forces will be tracked by excon.  This info can be used as "footage" for AARs.  Every soldier will have a GPS receiver on his vest/helmet.  And when a soldier enters a vehicle, he will be "associated" to it (as the GPS would not be able to track his movement in the vehicle, but the vehicle itself will be tracked)

I hope I've answered most of the questions..  feel free to ask more.


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

Hey, interesting stuff - but how do you plan on getting a "cave complex" in the middle of Wainwright?  Battle River environs or something?


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## KevinB (12 Apr 2005)

Chags - good to hear! Updates from the horse mouth are always nice to hear!


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

Whoa now - what did you do.  Optimism from KevinB AND an exclamation point to boot!?!  All that needs to happen is for CFL to come over and say "cool".... ;D


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## McG (12 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> However, it seems to be honed in on "conventional" - we probably need a Canadian Unconventional Warfare Center that deals with cities, complex terrain, 4th Generation Warfare, 3-block war, etc, etc.


No.  It needs to be one collective TC that handles conventional and unconventional threats in open, complex and "boundary" terrain.

This means that CMTC not only needs a OBUA village, it probably needs a couple (of various sizes) that are located throughout the trg area on and adjacent to MSRs.  Some of these may be the traditional cinderblock two storey buildings of most such villages.  Building some with internal walls of wood & drywall although the integration of realistic booby-trap trg.  Some of the villages may only need to be collections of sea-containers with doors cut into the sides or ends.


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## COBRA-6 (12 Apr 2005)

Chags, do you have any new info WRT reservists filling the OPFOR posns there?


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

Ok, that sounds like it would work.   I still think (and I don't know if it is asking for too much) that a "3BWTC" should have a large enough urban environment to put a battalion/battlegroup into - simply putting up 15 houses doesn't seem to be extensive enough to practice and validate things like "satellite patrolling", navigating for QRF's, roadblocks, and all the other stuff that comes to mind.


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## GO!!! (12 Apr 2005)

The fact that the CF has re-oriented enough to even CONSIDER a training center for the so called "3 block war" is absolutely f***ing outstanding. 

It may only be in the early stages right now, but it sure beats a LAV/Tank/Stryker/Mech BS centric training area that would train us really well to fight our father's war.

We must not critisize such an endeavor, lest it revert into something really useless (like the FIBUA house in Edmonton)

Chags - will this trg area, or any part of it, be operational for the Bde Ex in May?


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## McG (12 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> simply putting up 15 houses doesn't seem to be extensive enough to practice and validate things


We're looking at a "100 sea-can village" to support some up comming training.


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## ArmyRick (12 Apr 2005)

Although we only conduct individual entry level training here at Meaford, we have been told to start gearing our ex scenarios to 3 block war material. They have also converted the old arty shack into a "simunition/WES" kill house.
The kill house is equiped with cameras and a cat walk for DS/OCs to watch the fun. They have also loaded our OBUA Village with cameras for feedback.

I like hearing how we are going the right direction in training. I am behind Hillier. I also think too many people do not understand that 3 block war does equal peacekeeping only. Look at Falluja, that was a brutal battle.

Lord knows when I was in 2VP and did a breif stint with the RCRs, it was interesting doing combat team, but as GO!!! said, that was relevant for my Dad when he was serving in 2 RCHA in germany in the '60s...


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## Matt_Fisher (12 Apr 2005)

I've thought that a great model for the CFs CMTC is more along the lines of the US Joint Readiness Training Center in Ft. Polk, LA.  It's good to see that the '3 block war' concept is being taken into consideration with the development of CMTC.

Perhaps a name change is indeed needed to better reflect the true scope of the centre:  Canadian Operational Training Centre or COTC rather than CMTC?


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

This has got to be one of the most enthusiastic threads I've seen in a long time.

Chags, you are the official Army.ca Morale Officer.... 



			
				Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Perhaps a name change is indeed needed to better reflect the true scope of the centre:   Canadian Operational Training Centre or COTC rather than CMTC?



I think "maneuver" is required so as to correlate it with that snazzy (shoplifted) doctrine facelift we got a few years back.


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## Chags (13 Apr 2005)

"official Army.ca Morale Officer"..  nice..  can I get that added to my profile..?  Maybe as my signature block or something..  

I'll answer a few more of the queries in a little bit..  I have a meeting to go to first..


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## Chags (13 Apr 2005)

I reread the thread and figured I'd answer a few more questions.. 

The cave system (which should have low crawl spaces and larger "rooms") will be in the "hilly" area around Battle River..  right now they're having planning issues with the "enclosed spaces" and the "dangers"  that come with it..  give me a break!

The villages that are being built prior to Apr 06 (There will be much more in the near future), will have some permanent structures (ie the farm compound will have a low wall surrounding it, and a few buildings within the wall..  like one would find around the outskirts of Kabul..)  but depending on the mission/task, villages can be improved and increased in size.  We'll have a number of moveable objects (including 100s of sea cans with doors and and windows cut out)  to train up to TF size.  

There will be emphasis placed on urban ops, ambushes, convoy escort drills.  Thats right, even your rear echelon will be part of the ex.  Your HLVW FAR will be fulled instrumented, so you better have security out during the rolling replens..  Of course, these are the threats that we could face on our present or near future deployments..  those will change, and we will change with them..  We now have a cell that coords with the PSTC in Kingston.  Any AAR from an UNMO returning from tour will be forwarded to us.  (ie Darfur)  

This APS we will be posting a Maj to Ft Hood (or Irwin..  I forget), but that will give us the coordination between us and JRTC and NTC.  Our Commander and a few others have been down to both TC's a few times and have learned quite a bit..  on a much larger scale of course..

As for OPFOR positions, the big push for permanent members will be APS 06 and 07.   The duration of contracts to reservists has yet to be decided..  could be 6, 8 or 12 month..  but basically every position with the coy gr besides the very-key positions will be available..  I think that will be a great job..  

Lastly, the question was asked about airborne, airmobile etc, operations.  Not much talk about airborne, but the airforce will play with us..  Gen Hillier is pushing the combined CF thing, so we can expect lots of joint operations..  more to fol on that


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## GO!!! (13 Apr 2005)

Awesome - finally a trg area to be proud of!


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## Baloo (13 Apr 2005)

Freakin' sweet! Looks good to have a training facility that can be used to meet the threats we will face in both today's and tomorrow's world, not yesterday's.


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## COBRA-6 (13 Apr 2005)

Chags said:
			
		

> As for OPFOR positions, the big push for permanent members will be APS 06 and 07.     The duration of contracts to reservists has yet to be decided..   could be 6, 8 or 12 month..   but basically every position with the coy gr besides the very-key positions will be available..   I think that will be a great job..



Awesome, I had the opportunity to be the OPFOR Pl Comd in Gagetown last summer for ATC INF (Res Dismounted Coy Comd Crse), the blue force was O Coy, 3 RCR. It was an excellent job, and I learned a ton about light infantry operations in close terrain, would do it again in a second.


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## Royal76 (13 Apr 2005)

CMTC sounds like the army is taking training in the right direction.  

My only beef with CMTC is that they are stripping away vehicles/equipment from field force units to kit it out.  The Whole Fleet (mis)Management is wrong and the army is going to pay for this in the long run if we don't sort it out.  The army needs to spend the money to buy CMTC it's own kit- perhaps a good wish list for that $13 billion we are getting in the next 5 years!  This is creating a huge problem in the mech battalions right now and is actually causing skill fade.  Battalions still need to do collective training annually vice once every 2-3 years.  

The advantage obviously is that CMTC will have the full support staff there and a means to actually "play war" with WES.  I am a big fan of CMTC.....let's hope it works!  Glad to hear that there is a sizable urban ops site.  Also good to hear that it will not solely be mech focused.

Who is manning all of this anyways?  We have trouble manning the schools as it is right now.........I assume new PYs have been added to fill this out?


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## TCBF (13 Apr 2005)

" I fully agree on the "cold war" mentality/relevance of CMTC as it appears to be set up (from firends posted there)"

The big fear is not that we will NOT do the non-cold war stuff, but that we, as an institution, will become so enamoured and gee-wilikers about this sexy new stuff that our Army will lose the institutional ability to study, understand, practice at a unit level (to train future Div Comds) and mobilize to fight a "Heavy Metal War on the Central Front" type of conflict.

The experience we  now rely on to do that has seriously degraded since we stopped manoeuvring with the adult armies in Germany.  

Bear in mind, SAT 1 may have reminded a lot of folks about just how loud the "loud Block" of the three block war is, and how hard it is to blow sunshine up the butts of your men when they all have red lights flashing on their harnesses.  If you extrapolate the SAT 1 attacking company casualties to the scale of our formations during WW1 and WW2, our SAT casualty rates may well rival those of Hill 70 or Ortona.

Conclusion:

1. The "loud" Block kills people, who may thus lose confidence in their leaders if left alive with a flashing red light on their chests.

2. This embarrasses their leaders, who want to avoid that.

3.  The quieter blocks won't kill them as fast.

They are dead wrong, of course, about number three.  if you can't dance with the best on the loud block, you can very easily get your asses handed to you on a plate on the "gentler" blocks.

The RPGs don't fly any slower in the quieter blocks, and the enemy brains are the same size.

This is becoming a VERY interesting place to be posted.  SAT 2 will be in July.

Check out the CMTC website.

As for the name-game, remember that every generation invents it's own terminology.    No big deal.  Just look at doctrine as the tool that - when mastered - allows you to kick more ass faster than before.

Tom


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## GO!!! (13 Apr 2005)

Is it really necessary to train Div Commanders in a military that can barely raise two Brigades?

Would those resources not be better used providing for sufficient Bn and lower trg?

As I've stated before - the "sexy new stuff" is here to stay. We wont be fighting any massive mechanised land battles in terrain such as Wx in my lifetime!


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## TCBF (13 Apr 2005)

We run into the realm of "Least Likely/Most Costly" scenarios.   The main reason we have a reserve force structured as it presently is structured is for a basis of national mobilization in case of a emergency.   Chance of that happening?   Remote.   But, enough not to permanently cripple the structure more than we have allready crippled it.   Human's have been very unreliable predictors of where and how the next war will be fought, unless they happen to be planning on starting it.     

Col English has written on how a lack of initial success in WW2 as well as casualties inordinately high to the accomplishment was a partial result of the failure of the Cdn Army to retain it's proffessional focus on training future operational commanders between WW1 and WW2.   This was not entirely the fault of the Army, as WW1 was known as "the war to end all wars", and the govt starved it for funds at one point.   But he does make a good case of those funds the Army did get being squanderred on trinkets and baubles (useless policies) that had no positive effect on developing new generations of field commanders, and thus resulting in a steep and blody learning curve.

So, yes, we could use the money to better train section commanders, but an inadequately trained section commander's   mistake probably won't cost 1000 Canadian lives in the future.   A badly trained General's mistake might.   We need some balance.

Taxpayers pay us to train to win the first battle of the next war, not to flip burgers at McDonalds for a photo op.   Being Cdn taxpayers, they just happen to be to stupid to know this.

It is my enduring priviledge to serve them.


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## KevinB (13 Apr 2005)

I think BN is the practical extent of Canadian capability...

 Unfortunate but given our kit - manning and lack of airlift we are a BN based Btl Gp max country.

I woudl rather have those BN units be excellent so the BN commanders can extrapolate from that experience - than have a half assed Canadianized Brigade or Div ex.  

I remember RV92 and woudl love to get back that way - but we dont have the real estate to accomodate a Div Ex with our current capabilties.


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## TCBF (14 Apr 2005)

My quote was "practice at unit level (to train future Div Comds)"  meaning that I think Btl Gp is as high as we will get at CMTC, and as long as some of it is high intensity ops, and all of it is balls to the wall, whatever "block" they happen to be fighting in, it will have to do.  The higher ups can then staff college/JCATS/whatever themselves to their heart's content. 

As far as real estate goes, we have Trg Area coming out of our butts.  We just happen to be spoiled.  Try trg in Hohenfels or Grafenwohr with the trg area full of more NATO than we have soldiers. We have dropped the ball on our trg areas, treating them as wildlife refuges rather than combat mnvr theme parks.

Tom


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## KevinB (19 Apr 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> My quote was "practice at unit level (to train future Div Comds)"   meaning that I think We have dropped the ball on our trg areas, treating them as wildlife refuges rather than combat mnvr theme parks.
> 
> Tom




Very True...

Of course running pipline under them did not help either...


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## DELTADOG13 (20 Apr 2005)

Chags,
Excellent to hear you are having fun in "sunny" Wainwright. Mark Squires got promoted to Sgt last week. God protect us from the squirrel. 
I finally glad to see the army is broadening their horizens and getting into some proper scenarios. CMTC is going to be the place to be in the coming years. Glad to hear we'll be able to do the whole gambit of exercises from general warfighting to unconventional warfare. It is about time.......we need improvise, adapt and overcome or else we will die.
 Pro Patria 

Greg


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