# So You Want to be Charles Atlas



## Frosty_47

I know that excessive weight is usually more common but being 6'3'' at 160Lb does not give me
any back or shoulder support. I can use some good expertise as on how to gain weight which seems
impossible with my my ultra-fast metabolism. I am scheduled for BMQ next summer, so I want to build
good back support for all that heavy weight-carry exercises. I don't have much experience with machines
in the gym as my past sport was swimming. 

-Thanks




[Edit to spell "weight" correctly so that people using the SEARCH function will be able to find this topic more easily.]


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## MSEng314

We had a guy like that in our platoon, our sergeant kept telling him "Get a dessert, and put butter on it! Better yet, get TWO desserts!"  ;D

All seriousness though, if you want to gain muscle mass, you have to train in 'hypertrophy' meaning 3-4 sets of around 12 reps with about 80% of your max weight. You will be doing that with the PSP staff when you go to the weight room at your BMQ, but I'm sure if you do some searching on Google, or on this site you could find some good workout plans.

Good luck!


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## Ascendant

At 6'3, 160, you should be able to put on considerable weight.

It's a matter of calories in vs. calories out, man. Your body needs 16 calories per pound of BW just to maintain it's weight. If you're looking to gain, you want to obviously be eating 17+ times your BW in calories. 

If you want to get big and strong, take a look at Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" or Bill Starr's 5x5. You can Google both of them. Mark Rippetoe is universally accepted as _the_ authority on beginner strength training. 

No matter what program you do, you have to make sure it has squats (full squats, not quarter squats or half squats), deadlifts and some sort of exercise where you are putting weight over your head. (Strict overhead press, push press, jerks, split jerks. One of them, but to start, I'd stick with SOHP or push press.) You'll then want to add in some assistance exercises. Rows, pullups, chin ups, hypers, etc.

One thing the guy above was right about was the dessert thing. Eat. When you think you can't eat anymore, eat what you have already eaten again. Drink whole milk. None of this skim garbage. Eat calorie dense food. Eat nuts, use olive oil where you can.

I absolutely 100% disagree with the guy saying do 3-4 sets of 12 reps. No. Start off doing either 3 sets of 5 or 5 sets of 5. Training solely for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (increasing the volume of the sarcoplasm, but no increas ein the number of muscle fibers) is a bad way to go, especially for practical application. Sure, higher reps have their place for assistance work, to add more size, but for your main lifts, you want to using 5 or less reps. This will lead to myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual increase in the number of muscle fibers) and strength gains. Sure, training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy might lead you to look a little bigger, but you want to be strong, not just look it, right? If you're eating enough and lifting heavy, using compound lifts, you will blow up in size, especially where you're starting from, period. I am a member of a strength and power forum and there was this skinny guy who started lifting heavy and eating big and he put on 35 lbs in three months.

I would advocate lifting three days a week. If you're lifting 5 days a week, like some people do, where's the recovery time? You don't get bigger in the gym, you get bigger in the kitchen and when you sleep. If there's no rest time, there's no growth and no progression. You can't lift heavy, using compound movements, five days a week and expect to make progress.

Take a log book to the gym. You should strive for more weight each week. Adding 5 lbs a week will get you to where you want to go.

I hope this post was helpful and if you want, I can put you onto some sources for some more info. Strength and size aren't the only things you need to be military fit, but at your weight, you could definitely use more of both.

Disclaimer: I have no official certifications, only what I read and am taught from those much, much stronger and vastly more experienced than myself. I consider lifting for strength a passion of mine. I just learn how to get big and strong from people who are big and strong.


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## MSEng314

If more reps with less weight only makes you "look" bigger, I wonder why the PSP make us train that way?

Curious...


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## ballz

I'll keep my opinions about the PSP training at St. Jean to myself, but...

The fact of the matter is the only way to get bigger and stronger is to tear your muscles to shreds, and then eat like a mofo, and your body will use what you are eating to recover and fix all those little tears, and in the process prepare your muscles to be more ready for it "next time." This is just your body adapting to the new work load you put on it, which is why you always need to keep adding weight and intensity to your workouts to continue improving.

The only way to tear your muscles and make them work like that is with heavy weight. Too much weight to put up for 12 reps. If you're putting it up 12 times, it's simply not heavy enough to do the necessary damage. 

I would also question your understanding of what the PSP staff were training you for. Training for strength and power is generally sets of 3-5 reps, and hypertrophy is mostly 6-8, as low as 4 and sometimes up to 10 but rarely and getting a little complex... 12-15 reps is endurance, definitely not hypertrophy, and is what I remember the PSP doing with us and teaching us at the Mega the 4 or 5 times we were in the gym. I do not recall them saying 12-15 reps is hypertrophy and I probably would because I find that quite ridiculous.

You also have to realize the PSP at the Mega have to assume everybody has zero knowledge of weight training and start everybody at ground zero and their goal is really to introduce people to weight training, with very very basic stuff. Anybody with a little experience in the gym had very little to gain from the PSP at the Mega because of those restraints.


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## Ascendant

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> If more reps with less weight only makes you "look" bigger, I wonder why the PSP make us train that way?
> 
> Curious...



Here's a great chart showing how the breakdown of reps and what they're effective for:







I believe the chart is from from Rip's book, _Practical Programming_.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I'll keep my opinions about the PSP training at St. Jean to myself, but...
> 
> The fact of the matter is the only way to get bigger and stronger is to tear your muscles to shreds, and then eat like a mofo, and your body will use what you are eating to recover and fix all those little tears, and in the process prepare your muscles to be more ready for it "next time." This is just your body adapting to the new work load you put on it, which is why you always need to keep adding weight and intensity to your workouts to continue improving.
> 
> The only way to tear your muscles and make them work like that is with heavy weight. Too much weight to put up for 12 reps. If you're putting it up 12 times, it's simply not heavy enough to do the necessary damage.
> 
> I would also question your understanding of what the PSP staff were training you for. Training for strength and power is generally sets of 3-5 reps, and hypertrophy is mostly 6-8, as low as 4 and sometimes up to 10 but rarely and getting a little complex... 12-15 reps is endurance, definitely not hypertrophy, and is what I remember the PSP doing with us and teaching us at the Mega the 4 or 5 times we were in the gym. I do not recall them saying 12-15 reps is hypertrophy and I probably would because I find that quite ridiculous.
> 
> You also have to realize the PSP at the Mega have to assume everybody has zero knowledge of weight training and start everybody at ground zero and their goal is really to introduce people to weight training, with very very basic stuff. Anybody with a little experience in the gym had very little to gain from the PSP at the Mega because of those restraints.



You get stronger via improved CNS (central nervous system) function, or neural adaption. I'll use a bicep curl as an example, because it is the easiest. (I don't like curls) When an untrained person does a curl, their CNS is only recruiting, say 30% (made up number) of their muscle fibers to lift the weight. Well, as that person continues training and continues to use more weight, their CNS adapts and is able to recruit more of the fibers to do the work. (The principal of progressive overload, where you continually place more stress on your body via reps or intensity) So, say, after 5 weeks of training, the person's CNS has is adapting and is now recruiting 40% of their bicep to do the curl. Of course, training for myofibrillar hypertrophy with proper caloric intake will make you bigger, it'll just take longer because (for a beginner) it is very much possible to get stronger without getting bigger. That's where the eating comes in.

I'll use quotes that can explain better than I can:

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy:


> During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength



Myofibrillar hypertrophy:


> During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, being the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle



See the chart I posted above.

You'll see you are way off base with your whole paragraph on reps and their uses. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is indicated as being optimal at 20 reps. Again, see the chart I posted above. In one of the most highly regarded strength programs, the 5/3/1 program, by Jim Wendler, he recommends something he calls "boring, but big" (BBB) for some assistance movements. BBB is 5 sets of 10 reps.


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## Frosty_47

Thank you for your explanation and suggestions.
I want to avoid excessive fluid in my muscles (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) so I will follow Kratos
advise on 5 sets of 5 with a day of break in between sessions. 
What exercises should I start with to build up the muscles along the spinal cord ?
Thanks


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## Ascendant

You kind of missed the point, I think. 

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy isn't bad and has it's place, but it's not something I'd recommend training for solely.

Also, please don't strictly follow anything I've said besides going to the Starting Strength website and following THAT. I'm not a professional, I hold no certifications and don't want anyone to blindly follow anything I say without reading a bit on their own and doing some critical thinking. I'm not saying I'm giving out bad advice or putting out bad info, but you should never blindly follow what anyone says, especially on the internet, without doing some reading/research of your own.

Don't make your own program. Here are some beginner strength programs, with the original Starting Strength at the top: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs

It doesn't look like much, but don't add anything to the program. (Save some cardio on off days if you'd like)

I'm assuming you don't know how to perform the exercises, so read the appropriate material on the Starting Strength site and go to YouTube and search Mark Rippetoe, for a more visual approach. Squatting or deadlifting with good form will yield great results. Squatting and deadlifting with improper form will hurt you.

Start light, with perfect form and the gains will come fast. You never want to start too heavy, or else it will catch up to you in a short amount of time. Lifting on Monday, Wednesday and Friday gives you plenty of time to rest.

To answer your last question, deadlifts, power cleans, overhead presses and squats will take care of your back.

Take a log book to the gym. Always. If you don't write stuff down, how do you know how your training/progression is coming?


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## Fusaki

Milpoints for Kratos!

Those interested in getting stronger should read and heed the above.


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## c4th

Frosty_47 said:
			
		

> I know that excessive weight is usually more common but being 6'3'' at 160Lb does not give me
> any back or shoulder support. I can use some good expertise as on how to gain weight which seems
> impossible with my my ultra-fast metabolism. I am scheduled for BMQ next summer, so I want to build



I joined the CF in 1992 at the age of 18 6’3.5” 165 lbs.  I needed a waiver from the MO at CFRC because I was well below the BMI.  He said:  “You’re 18.  You’ll gain weight.”  Heck I used to loose weight eating.

Now if you are 35 and 160’ then I guess you might as well get used to being underweight.  If you’re early 20’s or teens like I was don’t sweat it.  You’ll start gaining weight by 25.  What I recommend is get a girlfriend who can cook.  I put on 10 lbs a year for about 4 or 5 years after I met my spouse.  Stopped the upward spiral in time with running and dropped 20lbs in a month.  Consider yourself lucky.

Really, underweight is far better than overweight.  Fast metabolism is better than a slow one.  Will you be able to throw 200lbs a side on the bench  press and lift it.  Not anytime soon.  But I’d would not trade it for the running speed.
At 160 you shouldn’t be so upper body bankrupt that you can’t complete a ruck march or a demanding  field exercise.  A bit of upper body exercise will make it easier.  But from experience I wouldn’t be too worried.

I’ve spent 17ish years in the infantry.  Toughening up comes with time and miles.  Stay fit but don’t worry too much about looking good in the gym.


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## Ascendant

Trust No One said:
			
		

> I joined the CF in 1992 at the age of 18 6’3.5” 165 lbs.  I needed a waiver from the MO at CFRC because I was well below the BMI.  He said:  “You’re 18.  You’ll gain weight.”  Heck I used to loose weight eating.
> 
> Now if you are 35 and 160’ then I guess you might as well get used to being underweight.  If you’re early 20’s or teens like I was don’t sweat it.  You’ll start gaining weight by 25.  What I recommend is get a girlfriend who can cook.  I put on 10 lbs a year for about 4 or 5 years after I met my spouse.  Stopped the upward spiral in time with running and dropped 20lbs in a month.  Consider yourself lucky.



Then you weren't eating enough. 6'4, 165 is crazy.

If you are 35 and 160 lbs, you just need to eat more. It would actually become easier to put on weight as you get older.

In any case, it doesn't matter, because it all boils down to calories in vs. calories out. That holds true if you're 20 or 100.


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## c4th

Kratos said:
			
		

> Then you weren't eating enough. 6'4, 165 is crazy.



Not crazy.  This is crazy:


> According to the 2004 CCHS, 23.1% of Canadians aged 18 or older, an estimated 5.5 million adults, had a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or more, indicating that they were obese



My enlistment weight was within the medically recomended range of 156-205lbs and with a BMI of 20.1 was only slightly lower than the normal weight threshold of 20.7.  

Canadians, military included err on the side of heavy.  My point to the OP was that being light to the point of slightly underweight is not a limitation.  If there is no good reason to bulk up, I recommend don’t.


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## Ascendant

Trust No One said:
			
		

> Not crazy.  This is crazy:
> My enlistment weight was within the medically recomended range of 156-205lbs and with a BMI of 20.1 was only slightly lower than the normal weight threshold of 20.7.
> 
> Canadians, military included err on the side of heavy.  My point to the OP was that being light to the point of slightly underweight is not a limitation.  If there is no good reason to bulk up, I recommend don’t.



While that 23.1% is undoubtedly made up of fat people, you do realise the BMI is absolute garbage, right? At 5'10, ~205 lbs, I'm five pounds away from being considered obese. 5'10, 210 lbs is not obese.

Wait, so the medically recommended range for someone who is 6'4 is 156-205? 6'4, 156 is a skeleton. 

Bulk up to get bigger, stronger and faster?

If I'm 6'4, I'd probably like to weigh no less than 225.


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## DexOlesa

at 5'9" I'm supposed to be 150-170 at 175 is where i like to be (i'm quite a bit north of that right now but thats another thread)  175-180 has always been a good weight for me 170 makes me gaunt and sickly looking 150 and i'd be dead. I have huge shoulders and a huge chest, and quite muscular legs. BMI doesn't work for me (or most people) anymore


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## Ascendant

Exactly. At 5'10", the last "healthy/normal" weight is 179.

That's ridiculous.


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## Major_Malfunction

Some really good advice here mate... But take that BMI chart and throw it in the trash where it belongs! I'm 6' 220lbs which is WAY aver where I should be according to that chart. It says i should be 190lbs... no thanks. 

Everyone is different. It's great to use charts, graphs, and workout plans as a guide, but you really have to do what's best for your body. Sadly, it's all about trial and error. You're going to have to put some work into it and help your body figure out what works best for YOU.

At 6' 220lbs, I can run 5K in under 30 mins (which isn't bad) do pushups and situps til the cows come home. I'm not saying everyone who is 6' should bulk up, but it just goes to show how everyone is different compared to what some chart says.

6'3" 160lbs, your metabolism is SICK! As a personal trainer and someone with certs in nutrition, the first thing I'd say is EAT. 

Heard it before... I know. But what I mean, is you really have to load up the calories. 

It was funny when I went through the interview process and the gentleman gave me the list of drugs and all the other illegal items on it. I filled out that I have taken steroids and other prohormones when I was a kid. It didn't seem to be a big deal since it's been about 12 years since I tried any of that stuff.

I'm not saying you should try any of that garbage (and that's what it is, garbage) but doing that stuff showed me exactly how my body worked. To build muscle, I needed food... and lots of it. There were times when I ate well over 4000 calories in a day. It seemed like all I did was eat, sleep, workout, and go to school. sadly, it was exactly like that. Even at 245lbs, I had trouble staying big if I didn't eat enough. 

SO, of course, once I smartened up and got away from those chemicals, I continued to work out and eat right. I trimmed out and kept some really thick/dense muscle. And although many people who have just as many certifications as I do may completely oppose what I have to say, All I can say is that it worked for me and I'm sure if you get to know your body a little, it may work for you...

I believe in a slow gain. Don't rush out and start eating 5000 calories a day. Take a week, write down everytihng you eat and then put it into a calorie program like fitday.com (I love this one) Next, look at your scores. How many calories are you eating per day? what is the ratio between protein/carbs/fat? Then, decide where changes must be made.

(again, I'm not telling you that you should o  this, but this is what worked for me)

A typical protein/carb/fat ratio should be 40%/40%/20%
= 100% just so we're on the same page 

There will be a small pie chart to show you the %'s

Next, let's say you're only eating 1500-1900 calories per day. Well, for someone who wants to gain weight (mostly muscle mass cuz let's be honest, you're going to gain fat too) you're going to have to eat more!!

Try adding 150 calories into your diet each week until you start to see some gains. I know, it's slow, but it's better than adding 500 a week and ending up with sick amounts of bodyfat and liver issues...

Keep doing that until you start to see real gains in your strength and muscle mass. Use the mirror, scales are a pain and they just get in the way of real training. But,if you need that sort of stimulus... weigh yourself once a month.

As for the workout routine... it's hit or miss. Low rep/heavy weight or moderate rep/moderate weight... Pick a weight and do 10 reps. If you struggle to do 10, then that's your weight and your goal is 12!  When 12 gets easy... increase the weight.  3-4 sets are fine... don't spend your life in the gym. Try to be in and out of there in an hour unless you do cardio...

That's basically it. Oh, and take a multi vitamin! lol

the rest is up to you and your body.. it'll let you now what's working.

Good luck!


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## Ascendant

See, I'm kind of different.

Honestly, I eat whatever I want. I gauge my eating/weight gain by my ab visibility (lol). 

It's easy for me, because honestly, I don't do it to look good. I do it to add more weight to the bar every week. Looks don't count in powerlifting.

I went from about 177-195 in about 3.5 months and sit at about 205 now. I don't eat all that often, I just make sure what I do eat is extremely calorically dense. 

I do one set of 5 a month on my main lifts (in the first week of my four week training cycle) and the rest are four and below. Higher reps work is reserved for assistance movements.

I don't quite get when you said you needed pharmaceuticals/AAS to figure out how your body worked. If anything, that would be a poor way to find that out, seeing as the results/impact of AAS/PHs would only occur while on cycle and never be reproduced naturally.

Have you used a real AAS, or just PHs? I would think I wouldn't have to explain to you that real steroids are actually safer than prohormones in most, if not all cases, right?


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## Major_Malfunction

Yeah... I know NOW that they are safer  lol  M1T was FAR more dangerous than some of the cocktails I was on. I am always SO thankful that I never got hit with any M1T side effects... *shivers*

And what I meant by that is that when I was young, I thought all I had to do was take them and work out... then I'd get big. I slowly realized that it still took a TON of food to put on the kind of size that I wanted. I learned a lot about the way my body works.

It actually took someone smacking me int he back of the head one day to figure out that food was the main staple in bulking up... chemical help or not. I was closer to getting Gyno than I was to getting big before I learned more about nutrition. (hence the multitude of certifications I went and got myself) 

As a man in my 30's though, after all the stuff I've tried and whatnot, I love the fact that I can train hard, eat clean, and pretty much shape my body the way I want... as much as it sucks, trial and error is a great tool.
Expensive... but great!


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## Ascendant

Major_Malfunction said:
			
		

> Yeah... I know NOW that they are safer  lol  M1T was FAR more dangerous than some of the cocktails I was on. I am always SO thankful that I never got hit with any M1T side effects... *shivers*
> 
> And what I meant by that is that when I was young, I thought all I had to do was take them and work out... then I'd get big. I slowly realized that it still took a TON of food to put on the kind of size that I wanted. I learned a lot about the way my body works.
> 
> It actually took someone smacking me int he back of the head one day to figure out that food was the main staple in bulking up... chemical help or not. I was closer to getting Gyno than I was to getting big before I learned more about nutrition. (hence the multitude of certifications I went and got myself)
> 
> As a man in my 30's though, after all the stuff I've tried and whatnot, I love the fact that I can train hard, eat clean, and pretty much shape my body the way I want... as much as it sucks, trial and error is a great tool.
> Expensive... but great!



So basically, you were looking for a quick fix? Way to use pharmaceuticals when you're at your peak test production, anyway...

I still don't know why you needed them to figure out the simple fact of calories in > calories out = weight gain.

It doesn't take certifications, rocket science or anything else to realise that. "Hmm, I'm not gaining weight, maybe I should eat more."

A vast majority of supplements are garbage. Whey and creatine monohydrate are pretty cheap. I don't get the expensive part.


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## Major_Malfunction

Kratos said:
			
		

> So basically, you were looking for a quick fix? Way to use pharmaceuticals when you're at your peak test production, anyway...
> 
> Absolutely! But, when you're young and don't know any better...
> I still don't know why you needed them to figure out the simple fact of calories in > calories out = weight gain.
> 
> Again, it sounds all relative now, but when you're young and ignorant of a subject, sadly, trial and error are going to be your professors. I'm just lucky I didn't get hurt.
> 
> It doesn't take certifications, rocket science or anything else to realise that. "Hmm, I'm not gaining weight, maybe I should eat more."
> 
> Again, NOW I know all this. As a kid, you don't usually put two and two together. Finding out how wrong I was made me do something about it... hense the certs...
> 
> A vast majority of supplements are garbage. Whey and creatine monohydrate are pretty cheap. I don't get the expensive part.
> 
> And yet again... the only way to find out the vast majority of supplements are garbage is to try them. And that gets expenssive.
> 
> Guys like me (and probably you as well) have gone from trying everything to learning that all you need is whole foods and maybe a protein supplement if you live a busy lifestyle or just need the extra protein.
> 
> Compared to 15 years ago... I'm a damn rocket scientist when it comes to this stuff. Back then... I'm lucky I made it out in once piece.



However... back on subject (sorry to divert) The big thing is, is that you need to get those calories in to put on some  body mass. It's not going to start lean, but you can fix that with diet later. A lot of guys have this immage of being this big, monsterous ripped guy and what they don't realize is that a lot of work goes into it. The majority of pro body builders (who are ALL juiced up) get fat as hell while they're bulking up. It's just the way it is... massive amounts of calories are going to do that to you. Later on, you change the diet, add more cardio...and they shred.

I totally think you should stay away from this type of routine. Remember, the CF wants strong, fast, with lots of endurance. I doubt (don't quote me on this) they'd care if you're some huge hulking beast if you can't even run 5K.

I'd say train to be fit... You can still add the calories in slowly and maintain a high level of endurance. (including muscle endurance) You'll gain weight; that wont be an issue. Just don't be too eager to do it. That's when you can hurt yourself.

Depending on what you want out of your workouts, all I'd say is to train for what you're about to put yourself through.

I'm hitting BMQ in the summer and my personal workout (I'm not saying this will work for you but this is what work for me) is VERY basic.

I train Muay Thai 5 days a week
I lift 2 days a week (only basic lifts - bench, squat, deadlifts, pullups)
I run 3-5K 4 days a week
I take 2 days off
I eat whatever I want 1 day a week (within reason)

I'm  6' , 220lbs-ish and I'm in the best shape of my life. Ignote that BMI thing and just concentrate on how you feel and what the mirror is telling you.

I really don't feel like debating who's right and wrong anymore, so if you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Good luck!


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## Humphrey Bogart

Frosty_47 said:
			
		

> I know that excessive weight is usually more common but being 6'3'' at 160Lb does not give me
> any back or shoulder support. I can use some good expertise as on how to gain weight which seems
> impossible with my my ultra-fast metabolism. I am scheduled for BMQ next summer, so I want to build
> good back support for all that heavy weight-carry exercises. I don't have much experience with machines
> in the gym as my past sport was swimming.
> 
> -Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Stronglifts 5x5 http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/
> 
> this program will help you build some good functional strength, I use it and it works really well.  Its 3 times a week complete total body workouts everytime, mostly all olympics lifts and body weight exercises, you will be working a lot of stabilizers and fast-twitch muscles which for army stuff is what you want
> 
> [Edit to spell "weight" correctly so that people using the SEARCH function will be able to find this topic more easily.]


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## Ascendant

The Olympics lifts are the clean & jerk and the snatch.

Strong lifts contains the "big three": Squat, bench, deadlift.

I'm not a fan of only 1x5 DLs a week, but for a beginner, if you're squatting twice a week, you'd probably need to keep it that low.


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## scottyg

Hey...some advice for you with working out...try doing chest+triceps (add a bit of shoulders), back+biceps (add a bit of shoulders), and legs and abs for 3 seperate days. Then your fourth day can be spent on cardio. Then repeat for the 5th day, or take a resting day.

I say this because while doing chest your triceps are also working to push the bar up. In fact they work quite a lot, so doing the extra tricep workout after chest breaks your muscle down even more. Same with back and biceps.

Also, try to limit your workout to 50mins-1hour10mins, best to shoot for an hour, because anything over that usually has a reverse effect. Also, remember it is not only protein that you need to rebuild muscles, which is why you should drink chocolate milk after workouts instead of protein shakes. Protein shakes generally do not offer the quality protein that real food does.

Furthermore, to build up strength, start doing dumbbells for chest and your other excersises instead of the bar. Dumbbells require you to stabilize the weight and work more muscles than just a bar. Also, try different methods of pronation when doing these.

My current chest workout is like this:
sets: 12reps-10reps-8reps
65 pounds, 70 pounds, 75 pounds* (technically double because you will have two in your hands)
for flat bench

for incline bench I decrease to 50-55-60, and for decline bench I do 55-60-65...remember start with 12 reps, then 10 reps, then 8 reps.

do flat bench, incline bench, and decline bench (using dumbells for all), then do the pec deck, and then shoulder press, and then include triceps, such as skullcrushers and the pulldown....also, if you are up to it include some resistance training in the decline stage of the workout...I nromally put 45 on each side (*I move from dumbells to a bench with a bar) and go down reallly slow and hold it just above my chest for 2 seconds, then push it back up fast. This helps build your strength. If you have any questions let me know....keep on it...


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## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> Hey...some advice for you with working out...try doing chest+triceps (add a bit of shoulders), back+biceps (add a bit of shoulders), and legs and abs for 3 seperate days. Then your fourth day can be spent on cardio. Then repeat for the 5th day, or take a resting day.
> 
> I say this because while doing chest your triceps are also working to push the bar up. In fact they work quite a lot, so doing the extra tricep workout after chest breaks your muscle down even more. What does "breaking muscle down" have to do with anything. Same with back and biceps.
> 
> Also, try to limit your workout to 50mins-1hour10mins, best to shoot for an hour, because anything over that usually has a reverse effect. Nice broscience. Also, remember it is not only protein that you need to rebuild muscles, which is why you should drink chocolate milk after workouts instead of protein shakes. This makes little sense. Of course you need more than protein, people just use whey post workout because it is a fast digesting source of protein. There's no point in getting in the subject of nutrient timing, though, because that is just a can of worms. You relaise chocolate milk is just normal milk with sugar/flavoring, right? Protein shakes generally do not offer the quality protein that real food does. That's why it is called a supplement
> 
> Furthermore, to build up strength, start doing dumbbells for chest and your other excersises instead of the bar. Dumbbells require you to stabilize the weight and work more muscles than just a bar. While this is partly true, to build up strength, you would actually _want_ to use the bar. You know why? Using the bar = you moving more weight = you getting stornger. Also, try different methods of pronation when doing these.
> 
> My current chest workout is like this:
> sets: 12reps-10reps-8reps
> 65 pounds, 70 pounds, 75 pounds* (technically double because you will have two in your hands)
> for flat bench
> 
> for incline bench I decrease to 50-55-60, and for decline bench I do 55-60-65...remember start with 12 reps, then 10 reps, then 8 reps. Please explain why you use that set/rep scheme. Sounds like something straight out of a bodybuilding magazine.
> 
> do flat bench, incline bench, and decline bench (using dumbells for all), then do the pec deck, Flat and incline, yes. Decline, why? If you busted your ass on flat bench, there's no need to do incline and decline. Same applies to the pec deck... and then shoulder press, and then include triceps, such as skullcrushers and the pulldown....also, if you are up to it include some resistance training in the decline stage of the workout...I nromally put 45 on each side (*I move from dumbells to a bench with a bar) and go down reallly slow and hold it just above my chest for 2 seconds, then push it back up fast. Again, why so many exercises? If you have enough left in you to do all this stuff, work harder. Also, that whole thing about lowering is slowly and holding it just above your chest...No. That is both pointless and silly. Negative training, which is similar to what you describe, may have some useful applications, but the majority of trainees just need to work on getting stornger. Period. This helps build your strength. If you have any questions let me know....keep on it...



...


----------



## Latrine2

Owa,

Career availability in the CF can change fairly quickly. Just a couple weeks ago they had Infantry Soldier positions available. I haven't checked since, but call your CFRC to see if your preferred career is available.

Good to see your journal, I can see the similarities between our situations; a lot of us must all be in the same boat on recruiting and training.

The only piece of advice I could give you with respect to your fitness training is to bear in mind the Cardio and Running elements of BMQ. The CF fitness literature includes a guideline of being able to do a 2.4 KM run in 11:56 or less to pass the 20m Shuttle Run, and in BMQ you will be doing 5 KM runs early on, so make sure you are giving enough focus to Cardio and aiming to exceed the CF expectations for cardio fitness as well as muscular fitness.

I'm on the same path, but our fitness elements are quite different. I do a "boot camp" fitness class that leaves me wiped out 2 times a week at a local gym, and am doing other muscle training myself at home. In addition to this, I found a circuit of blocks around my apt. just a bit over 1 KM from start to finish and have been using this circuit to begin measuring and building on my current Cardio / aerobic fitness with jogging, sprinting, walking, and incline running.

As far as diet... very little fruit, only a Banana once in a while. Not too much Peanut butter and jam, processed foods in general are far too high in calories, I stick with seeds and nuts like raw Almonds, Walnuts, Sunflower seeds. My diet focus is more low-calorie fill-you-up since weight loss is another goal of mine, so lunch is usually a cup of assorted raw veggies (Spinach and Bok Choi are tasteless, but nutritionally fantastic) and maybe a boiled egg, dinner includes more veggies and some protein like a Pork Chop or Chicken breast. I figure my daily calorie intake is between 1500-1800 to lose weight but have enough energy to work out. I still do cheat as well, can't go without a taste of chocolate once in a while, but I avoid all alcohol and even diet drinks/sodas are right out since Aspartame is reportedly very bad on the organs, esp. the Liver. Chilled, filtered tap water is my liquid of choice. That and a metal thermos. There's something about drinking water from a metal cup that makes it much easier to drink for me; from plastic it just doesn't taste the same.

Good luck with all your plans, and perhaps we may even meet up at St. Jean.

Cheers,

Latrine


----------



## scottyg

Kratos said:
			
		

> ...



Well first of all Kratos, breaking muscle is how you get bigger....you break the muscle, and then you add protein/carbs/etc in order to build it up again, only it builds up strnger than it was before. The stuff about protein I was making sure he realized it because many people believe protein is all you need in order to successfully build muscle. 50 minutes to 1 hour and 10 minutes because anything after that and you are not being productive enough to cause any successful breaking of your muscles, and it could actually have the reverse effect you want, look it up. I know exactly what chocolate milk is, it contains more sugars and carbohydrates and all that good stuff than white milk though, which is better for you after a workout, and i also know what a supplement is, I am simply making sure he does too.

Lifting more weight does not make you stronger...lifting more weight makes you able to lift more weight (*obviously this will make you stronger in a sense, but many people who can bench 300 pounds cannot do that many pushups...by strength I mean the ability to perform for a long period of time instead of just a short burst of energy)...maybe you could push a 300 pound guy away from you if you benched 300 a lot, but your chest would only be used to the short burst and you would not have any real strength if it came down to more than just a short burst of energy...which is why football players (such as the o-line and d-line) regularly do max bench to increase their ability to push a lot of weight in that short burst, and people like wrestlers do lower weight but more reps and slower, and have sustained strength.

LOL, decline and incline work different parts of your chest than flat bench...trust me the flat bench is not the be all and end all of chest, there are better workouts than just that for sure. And it is good to do a lot of workouts in a short period of time so you can increase your muscular strength, like what I was saying up there.

And negative/resistance training is one of the best ways to get cut/jacked/strong, look it up....it makes obvious sense, you are resisting the weight and therefore your muscles are straining more than they would if they were just pushing the weight...

Like George Wallace and other people always say, "please use the search function" (for you it is located in Google) before you try to criticize me or make a point, because clearly you do not know what you are talking about.

Also Kratos, the sugar in chocolate milk is beneficial to your muscles, that is why chocolate milk is the recommended drink after a workout...

Furthermore, 12-10-8 set/reps would be the opposite of what is found in a bodybuilding magazine...bodybuilders try to get as big as they can...which is why they would do more weight and less reps....12 reps 10 reps 8 reps is designed to promote your strength while still building muscle.

And for new recruits to build muscle like you say would be the opposite of what they need for the army. I understand the army BMQ and everything else require a high level of cardio, and cardio is harder to do when you are weighed down with excess muscle. Also, like I said before, it would be harder to bodyweight excersizes, like pushups and chinups...which are mandatory in order for his success.

And please, take some time to evaluate yourself and your working out habits, go talk to a personal trainer, because I do not think you are headed in the right direction.


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> Well first of all Kratos, breaking muscle is how you get bigger....you break the muscle, and then you add protein/carbs/etc in order to build it up again, only it builds up strnger than it was before. No, it will rebuild bigger and maybe slightly stronger, but I think you should educate yourself on the difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy. I'm not going to get into here. The stuff about protein I was making sure he realized it because many people believe protein is all you need in order to successfully build muscle. 50 minutes to 1 hour and 10 minutes because anything after that and you are not being productive enough to cause any successful breaking of your muscles, Again, this "breaking of your muscles" thing. Please show me a scientific study that demonstrates working out for longer than an hour as ineffective. I know very, very strong people whose sessions rarely if ever last LESS than an hour. You're spouting garbageand it could actually have the reverse effect you want, look it up. No, YOU look it up. You're the one trying to prove it. I know exactly what chocolate milk is, it contains more sugars and carbohydrates and all that good stuff than white milk though, Cool. There are better carb sources than chocolate milk. which is better for you after a workout, and i also know what a supplement is, I am simply making sure he does too.
> 
> Lifting more weight does not make you stronger...Yes...It does.lifting more weight makes you able to lift more weight (*obviously this will make you stronger in a sense, but many people who can bench 300 pounds cannot do that many pushups...by strength I mean the ability to perform for a long period of time instead of just a short burst of energy)...maybe you could push a 300 pound guy away from you if you benched 300 a lot, but your chest would only be used to the short burst and you would not have any real strength if it came down to more than just a short burst of energy You can train for both....which is why football players (such as the o-line and d-line) regularly do max bench to increase their ability to push a lot of weight in that short burst, and people like wrestlers do lower weight but more reps and slowerNo, they don't., and have sustained strength.
> 
> LOL, decline and incline work different parts of your chest than flat bench...I knew you were going to say this. This is the typical, uneducated way of thinking. Your pec is a muscle. There is no "upper" pec or "lower" pec. A muscle is a muscle. One single muscle. Not lower, upper, mid, etc. Hey man, can you tell me how to make my upper-mid-left pec stronger and bigger?trust me the flat bench is not the be all and end all of chestYes, it is., there are better workouts than just that for sure. And it is good to do a lot of workouts in a short period of time so you can increase your muscular strengthI think you mean muscular endurance., like what I was saying up there.
> 
> And negative/resistance training is one of the best ways to get cut/jacked/strong, look it up.... LOL. What does "cut" and "jacked" have to do with performance?it makes obvious sense, you are resisting the weight and therefore your muscles are straining more than they would if they were just pushing the weight...Like I said, some people employ the usage of negative training with weights higher than there 1RM as a way of overloading their CNS, but for most trainees, it is unnecessary and a waste of time.
> 
> Like George Wallace and other people always say, "please use the search function" (for you it is located in Google) before you try to criticize me or make a point, because clearly you do not know what you are talking about. No, my friend, YOU please use the search function. Start getting your info from sources other than bodybuilding magazines, written by some nerd in a cubicle. I don't claim to know everything, but I'll sure as hell go out on a limb and say I know more than you.
> 
> Also Kratos, the sugar in chocolate milk is beneficial to your muscles, that is why chocolate milk is the recommended drink after a workout...As I said above, there are other sources of fast acting carbs. I do love me some chocolate milk, though.
> 
> Furthermore, 12-10-8 set/reps would be the opposite of what is found in a bodybuilding magazine...bodybuilders try to get as big as they can...which is why they would do more weight and less reps....12 reps 10 reps 8 reps is designed to promote your strength while still building muscle. Lol, again, educate yourself a bit more. You have it the exact opposite of how it works. Less weight + higher reps = more hypertrophy. More weight + lower reps = less hypertrophy. If you still don't believe me, I can post a chart that should make this point very clear for you.
> 
> And for new recruits to build muscle like you say would be the opposite of what they need for the army. I understand the army BMQ and everything else require a high level of cardio, and cardio is harder to do when you are weighed down with excess muscle. Also, like I said before, it would be harder to bodyweight excersizes, like pushups and chinups...which are mandatory in order for his success.
> 
> And please, take some time to evaluate yourself and your working out habits, go talk to a personal trainer, because I do not think you are headed in the right direction. No. I think you should. I am helped and informed by very, very strong people. My "habits" are fine. I think you are the one who should take a step back.



You really want to get into this? I hate turning people's threads into this banter, but I hate bad information even more. Oh, most personal trainers are garbage. I would never speak to one for advice on anything, let alone how to get bigger and stronger.

Edited for unnecessary material.


----------



## PMedMoe

Take it to PMs, please.


----------



## aesop081

Kratos said:
			
		

> You really want to get into this?



You know what i like about fitness talk ?

Everyone out there seems to be the one who has all the right answers, knows best and everyone else i just garbage. I dont care if you can deadlift Rita McNeal with one arm tied behind your back, you are just one guy with one opinion and its worth the same as everyone elses.

I have seen all kinds of roid monkeys and star athletes turn into incapable blobs over the years and that enough for me to ignore most of you fitness nuts.


----------



## Ascendant

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You know what i like about fitness talk ?
> 
> Everyone out there seems to be the one who has all the right answers, knows best and everyone else i just garbage. I dont care if you can deadlift Rita McNeal with one arm tied behind your back, you are just one guy with one opinion and its worth the same as everyone elses.
> 
> I have seen all kinds of roid monkeys and star athletes turn into incapable blobs over the years and that enough for me to ignore most of you fitness nuts.



No. I never claimed to have all the right answers, and there certainly are things in the training industry that vary based on opinion and preference. Some things, however, do not. When I see these certain things, you bet I'm going to point them out.

I'm not a fitness nut either, but please feel free to ignore me anyway.


----------



## SeanNewman

The only things you need to get jacked are SizeOn and a job in KAF that your boss doesn't care about that allows you unlimited gym hours.


----------



## scottyg

Kratos said:
			
		

> You really want to get into this? I hate turning people's threads into this banter, but I hate bad information even more. Oh, most personal trainers are garbage. I would never speak to one for advice on anything, let alone how to get bigger and stronger.
> 
> Edited for unnecessary material.




"Well first of all Kratos, breaking muscle is how you get bigger....you break the muscle, and then you add protein/carbs/etc in order to build it up again, only it builds up strnger than it was before. No, it will rebuild bigger and maybe slightly stronger, but I think you should educate yourself on the difference between sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy. I'm not going to get into here. "

So then you agree with me...cool.

I never said chocolate milk was the best source of carbs lmao, i said it was the best thing to drink after a workout.

Trust me buddy, I know the whole football team at my university, and all of the o-line and d-line go for short burst strength, which is why they do max bench.

"LOL, decline and incline work different parts of your chest than flat bench...I knew you were going to say this. This is the typical, uneducated way of thinking. Your pec is a muscle. There is no "upper" pec or "lower" pec. A muscle is a muscle. One single muscle. Not lower, upper, mid, etc. Hey man, can you tell me how to make my upper-mid-left pec stronger and bigger?trust me the flat bench is not the be all and end all of chestYes, it is., there are better workouts than just that for sure. And it is good to do a lot of workouts in a short period of time so you can increase your muscular strengthI think you mean muscular endurance., like what I was saying up there."

Yes, they work different parts refer here....http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/iskender73/muscle_diagram.jpg
Pectoralis Major and Pectoralis Minor...your right though I did mean muscular endurance....and while doing decline and incline, it works more muscles in your arms and shoulders than you would just doing flat bench. If you honestly believe flat bench is the best chest excersize you are sadly mistaken.

"And negative/resistance training is one of the best ways to get cut/jacked/strong, look it up.... LOL. What does "cut" and "jacked" have to do with performance?it makes obvious sense, you are resisting the weight and therefore your muscles are straining more than they would if they were just pushing the weight...Like I said, some people employ the usage of negative training with weights higher than there 1RM as a way of overloading their CNS, but for most trainees, it is unnecessary and a waste of time."

Cut and jacked dont, how about you look at the word after cut/jacked STRONG. And why would strength training ever be unnecessary, especially for someone whose main purpose is to get strong? 

I have never read a bodybuilding magazine, I take my knowledge from personal trainers and people in kinesiology, who actually understand how the human body works. 

I find the less weight more reps thing and more hypertrophy to be invalid so yeah I would like for you to post a chart on that.


----------



## Ascendant

Like I said, you need to educate yourself on the difference between sarcoplasmic and myfibrillar hypertrophy, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.

You're not going to argue with Mark Rippetoe now, aren't you?


----------



## scottyg

Kratos said:
			
		

> Like I said, you need to educate yourself on the difference between sarcoplasmic and myfibrillar hypertrophy, then you'll understand what I'm talking about.
> 
> You're not going to argue with Mark Rippetoe now, aren't you?



You're the one who said I read bodybuilding magazines, but then you throw in a name like Mark Rippetoe...lol....And yeah I believe you now I guess you are right for the increase in size, as I looked it up after I made the last message. But it depends on how you look at high reps and low reps....I have never heard of anyone lifting any less than 8 reps per set, and that is still well within a "good range". Either way, half the things you said were ridiculous, you cannot expect to sit on a bench press and have an all-around good chest, and yes incline and decline work different parts of the chest/arms/shoulders.


----------



## aesop081




----------



## scottyg

I agree with the facepalm as we have hijacked this thread and turned it into a useless argument, but for my last LOL of the evening I just want to quote Kratos.

"You really want to get into this? I hate turning people's threads into this banter, but I hate bad information even more. Oh, most personal trainers are garbage. I would never speak to one for advice on anything, let alone how to get bigger and stronger."

thats dumb.


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> You're the one who said I read bodybuilding magazines, but then you throw in a name like Mark Rippetoe...lol....And yeah I believe you now I guess you are right for the increase in size, as I looked it up after I made the last message. But it depends on how you look at high reps and low reps....I have never heard of anyone lifting any less than 8 reps per set, and that is still well within a "good range". Either way, half the things you said were ridiculous, you cannot expect to sit on a bench press and have an all-around good chest, and yes incline and decline work different parts of the chest/arms/shoulders.



What's wrong with Mark Rippetoe? He has nothing to do with bodybuilding and is probably the most highly regarded beginner/intermediate strength coach out there. Starting Strength and Starting Strength Second Edition are two of the best training books ever produced. With that said, I don't understand what you're saying there. 

Seriously? There are tons of people who lift under eight reps for the main lifts (ie. Squat, bench, DL). I don't do anything over 5 for those three, with majority of the work done at three and under. Some of the strongest guys I know don't do anything more than singles.

How are they ridiculous? You're still saying "good" chest as if your talking about aesthetics. I know guys benching high 300s - mid 400s that don't do incline or decline. They probably don't know what they're doing, though.

And no, it's not dumb. 

You can have absolutely no training background, go do a one day course and become a "certified" personal trainers. Please.

I speak to the ones that work at my gym on occasion and hear the advice they give out. It makes me want to stab my ear drums out.

Plus, I really like the "proof is in the pudding" idea. Why would I ask a 150 lb weak person for advice on how to become strong? I wouldn't.


----------



## aesop081

Kratos said:
			
		

> Why would I ask a 150 lb weak person for advice on how to become strong? I wouldn't.



Fuck you're funny..........


----------



## Fusaki

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You know what i like about fitness talk ?
> 
> Everyone out there seems to be the one who has all the right answers, knows best and everyone else i just garbage. I dont care if you can deadlift Rita McNeal with one arm tied behind your back, you are just one guy with one opinion and its worth the same as everyone elses.
> 
> I have seen all kinds of roid monkeys and star athletes turn into incapable blobs over the years and that enough for me to ignore most of you fitness nuts.



You're right. Everyone thinks they have the _best way._

But...

The training principles that Kratos is describing are being applied by REAL soldiers on REAL courses.  His advice is VERY much in line with the solid advice Stymiest offered in the Infantry Officer Phase 3 thread:



			
				Stymiest said:
			
		

> 1.  Get in Shape - so many people couldn't hack the course because they just couldn't physically manage the training
> 
> My training that I do - You will not be doing that much running for some reason the CF loves jogging to tell you the truth you would be better served taking your rucksack putting around 60 lbs in it and going for a nice march.  I did this for a month and a half before course and it served me well, try to build yourself up so you can do a BFT in about a 1 hour 50 min timeframe, oh and wear boots when you do this, your not going to be using sneakers in the field so why would you wear them for training.
> 
> *Also, lift weights and lots of them, but by weight lifting I am not talking about bodybuilding weightlifting, aka doing a bi and tri day then stairing at your pecks in the mirror,* you should be following an olympic lifting program*, i.e. 3 times a week of power lifting 5x5 stronglifts is a good program* here is a link http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/ This type of training will strengthen your core, back and leg muscles, and is a total body workout.  Its also super easy to follow, and you will see massive benefits if you do follow it.



The 5x5 program that Stymiest recommends (based on his experience on one of the most demanding courses in the infantry) is just one interpretation of the strength training method Kratos is recommending here.


----------



## Ascendant

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> frig you're funny..........



I really don't see what problem you have with that statement. 

Would you ask some guy who only ever played minor hockey what it takes to make it to the NHL?

Would you ask someone who only played tee ball how to get to the MLB?

Sorry, but if I walk into a gym looking to get strong and see two people: Some skinny, running shoe wearing "personal trainer" and a 280 lb guy over in the corner with chalk on his hands, Chuck Taylors on his feet, belt around his waist, doing deadlifts, I think I know which one I'll go to for help.


----------



## Ascendant

OMG, Wonderbread, where are the curlz and pec deck!???!!!

That program sux!!!11!

/sarcasm


----------



## aesop081

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> The training principles that Kratos is describing are being applied by REAL soldiers on REAL courses.



Yup and for every real soldier or an real cours that says "A" is the greatest thing ever, you will find an equaly real soldier on an equaly real course that says "B" is better and that "A" is utter rubbish.

People find what works *for them*. Simple as that.

I'm pretty sure i passed a real course or 2..........


----------



## Ascendant

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yup and for every real soldier or an real cours that says "A" is the greatest thing ever, you will find an equaly real soldier on an equaly real course that says "B" is better and that "A" is utter rubbish.
> 
> People find what works *for them*. Simple as that.
> 
> I'm pretty sure i passed a real course or 2..........



In almost every post you've made, you seem to be missing the fact that I acknowledge the personalization of training and that people do, in fact, find what works for them. That being said, there are some fundamentals that are, indeed, a matter of right and wrong.


----------



## Fusaki

> Yup and for every real soldier or an real cours that says "A" is the greatest thing ever, you will find an equaly real soldier on an equaly real course that says "B" is better and that "A" is utter rubbish.



This thread is* not* about two meatheads splitting hairs over the finer points of military fitness.  
_
This thread is about  bodybuilding (scottyg) vs strength training (Kratos).  _

In should be overwhelmingly obvious that one side of this discussion is offering *much* better advice than the other side.


----------



## George Wallace

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> In should be overwhelmingly obvious that one side of this discussion is offering *much* better advice than the other side.



And neither wants to concede to the other.........So your point?


----------



## scottyg

Kratos said:
			
		

> What's wrong with Mark Rippetoe? He has nothing to do with bodybuilding and is probably the most highly regarded beginner/intermediate strength coach out there. Starting Strength and Starting Strength Second Edition are two of the best training books ever produced. With that said, I don't understand what you're saying there.
> 
> Seriously? There are tons of people who lift under eight reps for the main lifts (ie. Squat, bench, DL). I don't do anything over 5 for those three, with majority of the work done at three and under. Some of the strongest guys I know don't do anything more than singles.
> 
> How are they ridiculous? You're still saying "good" chest as if your talking about aesthetics. I know guys benching high 300s - mid 400s that don't do incline or decline. They probably don't know what they're doing, though.
> Not only that, if you cannot do more than one excersise other than the bench press then obviously something is wrong....there is more to the chest than the bench press.....you know when youre muscles get too used to an excersise? Then you will no longer gain what you used to....which is why it is good to always switch up the workouts....but to limit yourself to only one workout is absurd.
> 
> And no, it's not dumb.
> 
> You can have absolutely no training background, go do a one day course and become a "certified" personal trainers. Please.
> 
> I speak to the ones that work at my gym on occasion and hear the advice they give out. It makes me want to stab my ear drums out.
> 
> Plus, I really like the "proof is in the pudding" idea. Why would I ask a 150 lb weak person for advice on how to become strong? I wouldn't.



In no way am i talking about bodybuilding...if you look at it from the side of Kratos he is saying that the people who are big are the strong ones, and the people who are "150lb" he would never take advice from. How about you look at people in the UFC and do not even judge their ability to fight. If you ever see some of them training you would realize how strong they are, yet many are not over 150 pounds or even 175. 

What would be the most realistic path to take if you were to join the military? It would be to be somewhere in between, so you are strong but you can also do the pushups and chinups required and still have good cardio. I guarantee the 250+ pound people in any gym have no cardio, unless they are a rare breed or exceptionally tall. All I am saying is that is extremely more realistic and useful for someone joining the army to do more reps and less weight, because this is what will be required of you. Think your Sgt. is gonna say drop and give me a 300lb bench press? It's not useful to what the guy was looking for. And also, the thing by Mark or whatever his face is is a highly controversial chart, seeing as this is one of the most contested arguments in lifting weight there is (more weight less reps or less weight more reps).

I do not know where you work out but to do anything under 5 reps seems absurd to me. I saw the post by Stymeist, and I have read others like it...if you notice the title is for beginners, and it is used for them to get used to weight training. 

Its impossible to argue this, but either way, for the army and the fitness level you need to achieve, my method is superior to yours. If only because it makes your muscles more used to the STRAIN, because yours would get them used to heavier strain but less time.


----------



## Fusaki

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And neither wants to concede to the other.........So your point?



I'm just trying to help the new guy who types "weight training" into the search function sift through the bullshit.


----------



## aesop081

scottyg said:
			
		

> my method is superior to yours.



 :

When i'm right.......i'm right.


----------



## scottyg

And have you ever heard of muscle memory? If you keep only doing the bench press then your muscles will get too used to it and will not break as much as they did before, and thus it will limit your ability to move up and limit the power in your chest. Which is why the "LOLZOR PECDECK" is important, as long with incline and decline, not only do they work other muscles, they also change up the way your muscles are lifting, which is important, or else you will have problems with muscle memory.


----------



## aesop081

People want to be ready for BMQ, here is the all time bestest method :

- Go running;
- Do lots of pushups;
- Do lots of situps; and 
- Do lots of chinups if you can.

Do the above and you wont have a problem and you wont have to wear chucks and chalk on your hands.


----------



## scottyg

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> People want to be ready for BMQ, here is the all time bestest method :
> 
> - Go running;
> - Do lots of pushups;
> - Do lots of situps; and
> - Do lots of chinups if you can.
> 
> Do the above and you wont have a problem and you wont have to wear chucks and chalk on your hands.



Although you'd look really awesome if you did wear those, right Kratos?


----------



## Fusaki

You guys are killing me.

This thread is making be dumber.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

scottyg said:
			
		

> I do not know where you work out but to do anything under 5 reps seems absurd to me. .



Mike Mentzer seemed to do alright with it..................


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> In no way am i talking about bodybuilding...if you look at it from the side of Kratos he is saying that the people who are big are the strong ones, and the people who are "150lb" he would never take advice from. How about you look at people in the UFC and do not even judge their ability to fight. If you ever see some of them training you would realize how strong they are, yet many are not over 150 pounds or even 175.
> 
> What would be the most realistic path to take if you were to join the military? It would be to be somewhere in between, so you are strong but you can also do the pushups and chinups required and still have good cardio. I guarantee the 250+ pound people in any gym have no cardio, unless they are a rare breed or exceptionally tall. All I am saying is that is extremely more realistic and useful for someone joining the army to do more reps and less weight, because this is what will be required of you. Think your Sgt. is gonna say drop and give me a 300lb bench press? It's not useful to what the guy was looking for. And also, the thing by Mark or whatever his face is is a highly controversial chart, seeing as this is one of the most contested arguments in lifting weight there is (more weight less reps or less weight more reps).
> 
> I do not know where you work out but to do anything under 5 reps seems absurd to me. I saw the post by Stymeist, and I have read others like it...if you notice the title is for beginners, and it is used for them to get used to weight training.
> 
> Its impossible to argue this, but either way, for the army and the fitness level you need to achieve, my method is superior to yours. If only because it makes your muscles more used to the STRAIN, because yours would get them used to heavier strain but less time.



I know people can be small an strong, if that is there choice. I'm into powerlifting, why are you trying to tell me about strength?

The methods you have described in your posts, whether you know or not, are the typical ideas spewed by bodybuilding sources.

This has no relevance to this discussion, but there are no fighters in the UFC who weigh under 150 lbs. The 155 lb fighters cut from 165-170 to weigh in. Also, many of them are not as strong as they look.

There's no reason why you can't train heavy bench and then do endurance work after or on off days.

That chart by Mark Rippetoe is not contestable or controversial at all. It's not telling anyone how to train, it's simply laying out the information on the effects of certain rep ranges. How is that controversial? Do you think he just pulled that out of his ass? You still seem to lack an understanding of the very basics of weight training. Low weight + high reps = sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. High weight + low reps = myofibrillar hypertrophy. This is not disputable and you will find no one who knows anything about weight training who says otherwise.

You know why I train with reps under 5 for my squat, bench and deadlift? BECAUSE I ONLY WANT TO GET STRONGER. That is my goal. My goal is to add more weight to those lifts and the best way to do that is with low reps and high weight. How can you even think or suggest (if you are) that doing 10 reps at 75% of your 1 Rep Max is going to make you stronger than doing 3 reps at 90% of your 1RM. 

Have you ever heard of the Hepburn program? I'll answer that: No, you haven't. It's a program based on doing singles. Singles. One rep.

No your method is not superior. You can train to increase limit strength and still have excellent muscular endurance.


----------



## aesop081

Maybe you guys should switch to pistols at dawn   :


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> And have you ever heard of muscle memory? If you keep only doing the bench press then your muscles will get too used to it and will not break as much as they did before, and thus it will limit your ability to move up and limit the power in your chest. Which is why the "LOLZOR PECDECK" is important, as long with incline and decline, not only do they work other muscles, they also change up the way your muscles are lifting, which is important, or else you will have problems with muscle memory.



Muscle memory. How did I know that one was going to come out next?

Muscle memory is a crock of s***. You can research this on your own, I'm not wasting time on it.

Motor memory exists, but in the manner which you describe it.

Stop talking about muscles "breaking" you're starting to sound worse and worse.

I've been doing the same lifts for over a year. You know how I confuse my muscles? By following a properly structured and progressive routine. You know what amounts to? ADDING MORE DAMN WEIGHT TO THE BAR. Hey muscles, here's some confusion for you: You lifted X last week and you're going to lift X+1 this week.


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> Although you'd look really awesome if you did wear those, right Kratos?



Nope, but you'd make yourself even better by adding strength training to that mix.


----------



## Ascendant

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Maybe you guys should switch to pistols at dawn   :



Maybe you should contribute something?

Or do you just know nothing about the subject?

Scotty: You've only mentioned benching in each of your posts. Do you squat? Do you deadlift? Do you overhead press?


----------



## aesop081

Kratos said:
			
		

> Maybe you should contribute something?



Reply #27....which is the only reply in some time that actualy had anything to do with the original intent.



> Or do you just know nothing about the subject?



Seriously...pistols at dawn. Keyboard duel isnt working for you guys.


----------



## Ascendant

Yeah, the typical military response.

Why do any extra strength training that would make you better at those things?

Why not do weighted sit ups to make you better at body weight ones...

If you can do 10+ BW chin ups, why not start doing weighted ones to make you better at BW ones...

Nah, just do lots of push ups, sit ups and run.


----------



## aesop081

Kratos said:
			
		

> Nah, just do lots of push ups, sit ups and run.



Hey, it worked for me and in my experience, it will also work for most applicants who are not in shape for BMQ. Notice how this is the recruiting forum ? I've been on this site long enough to see what they usualy worry about.

Sure , people can do what you mentioned, but people worried about getting in shape before BMQ and posting here shouldnt spend their limited time on getting fancy. They're not woried about doing 10 BW chinups......THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT DOING 1 !!!


----------



## armyvern

Kratos said:
			
		

> Yeah, the typical military response.
> 
> Why do any extra strength training that would make you better at those things?
> 
> Why not do weighted sit ups to make you better at body weight ones...
> 
> If you can do 10+ BW chin ups, why not start doing weighted ones to make you better at BW ones...
> 
> Nah, just do lots of push ups, sit ups and run.



Please. Can you just zip it for a while.

I think Cdn Aviator has it down.

This is a recruiting thread ... not the "kids kicked sand on me on the beach way back when I was a weakling and look where I am now, you can doooooooo iiiittttttttttt" Thread.

It's the basics. If you're beyond that - good for you.
Typical military response because we don't all feel the need to like like whatever that is in your avtar pic? No thanks.


----------



## Ascendant

So you're both just assuming that every recruit that passes through here are at an abysmal level of fitness/strength?

If someone could only do 1 chin up or less, then clearly they should be doing assisted chin ups.

Vern: Actually, I think this thread is now solely reserved for this discussion, is it not?

And nah, I was an athlete my whole life until I was almost killed/crippled in a car accident. I was on the other side of the fence for a while after that, though.

You're right. It's the basics. The basics: A level you should strive to better. Not the basics: Here, just do this, you should probably be alright.


----------



## armyvern

Kratos said:
			
		

> So you're both just assuming that every recruit that passes through here are at an abysmal level of fitness/strength?
> 
> If someone could only do 1 chin up or less, then clearly they should be doing assisted chin ups.
> 
> Vern: Actually, I think this thread is now solely reserved for this discussion, is it not?
> 
> And nah, I was an athlete my whole life until I was almost killed/crippled in a car accident. I was on the other side of the fence for a while after that, though.
> 
> You're right. It's the basics. The basics: A level you should strive to better. Not the basics: Here, just do this, you should probably be alright.



Please go start your:

"Getting waaayyyyy bigger and stronger than you have to be for basic training" (or everyday service) thread somewhere else - like a new topic with some sort of Charles Atlas title or something; then it will attract those who are interested in _that_ to it.

You've already resulted in this one being thrown waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy off topic and now not visible to those who would seek answers RELEVANT to them in their basic capacity.

I'm sure a mod will come along and clean the shit right out of it though.


----------



## McG

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Please go start your:
> 
> "Getting bigger and stronger than you have to be for basic training" (or everyday service) thread somewhere else - like a new topic with
> ...
> 
> I'm sure a mod will come along and clean the crap right out of it though.


Vern,
Check fire & look at the thread title.  A split has been done a while ago.  This already is its own thread and can carry on its way.


----------



## armyvern

MCG said:
			
		

> Vern,
> Check fire & look at the thread title.  A split has been done a while ago.  This already is its own thread and can carry on its way.



So can you please toss it out of the Recruiting Forum then?? And, into some more worthy forum ... like Physical trg standards and/or fitness ... radio chatter (my recommendation for the latest site dick-measuring contest) ...


----------



## Ascendant

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Please go start your:
> 
> "Getting waaayyyyy bigger and stronger than you have to be for basic training" (or everyday service) thread somewhere else - like a new topic with some sort of Charles Atlas title or something; then it will attract those who are interested in _that_ to it.
> 
> You've already resulted in this one being thrown waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy off topic and now not visible to those who would seek answers RELEVANT to them in their basic capacity.
> 
> I'm sure a mod will come along and clean the crap right out of it though.



Actually, it would be titled something about how to achieve those goals better and maybe, just maybe even exceed them.

I'd comment on your reading comprehension regarding this thread, but I'll refrain, since your normal is everyone else's insanity...


----------



## armyvern

Kratos said:
			
		

> Actually, it would be titled something about how to achieve those goals better and maybe, just maybe even exceed them.
> 
> I'd comment on your reading comprehension regarding this thread, but I'll refrain, since your normal is everyone else's insanity...



Your dick is bigger than mine --- guaranteed.

Whopppddeeefucking do.

Have a great cock-fight in here.

[/ignore]


----------



## aesop081

20 paces.......MARCH !!!!!!


----------



## McG

For all the children fighting - this thread is now locked


----------



## McG

Now that everyone has had the chance to cool-off, this is open again for those who want to discuss the topic (those who don't want to discuss the topic need not post).  Lets keep things civil this time; no more sniping and name-calling.


----------



## scottyg

Haha Kratos is enraged...yeah I do every muscle type, you wanted to talk about how you only bench so I figured we stay on topic...keep doing it your way, I am sure it will work out for you 

And for someone who takes no one's advice you sure seem to follow "Mr. Rippetoe" and other people down to the T...

This thread is sad.


----------



## 1feral1

scottyg said:
			
		

> Haha Kratos is enraged...yeah I do every muscle type, you wanted to talk about how you only bench so I figured we stay on topic...keep doing it your way, I am sure it will work out for you
> 
> And for someone who takes no one's advice you sure seem to follow "Mr. Rippetoe" and other people down to the T...
> 
> This thread is sad.



The quality of a thread is what you make of it. You and Kratos should both give your heads a shake. 

If you think you'll have all this extra time on your hands during your recruit training, you've got a big suprise coming.

OWDU


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

This thread is a mess; however, Kratos did bring up some good points, albeit it got lost in all the BS

The biggest one was his contestation that the army way of fitness aka running, situps, pushups, will take you to the end of the earth.

I am of the same ilk and I believe this is the biggest mistake the army is making with is indoctrinating new recruits into a mentality that pushups, situps, and running are all that is required.  

The only reason the army does this is because these exercises are easy and any average joe blow can do them.  However, basing your entire fitness model of this is incredibly stupid in my opinion and seeing tonnes of soldiers walking around with collapsed chests and crapped out backs is providing me with evidence that I am right.

Do I necessarily think that we should scrap what we do now, no of course not, however, we should be encouraging members to attain a higher level of fitness then they presently have and introduce them to superior methods of training.

Making powerlifting and strength training an integral part of the fitness component in the military would not only benefit the forces from an operational perspective as we would have stronger more capable soldiers who aren't broken by the time they are thirty because they didn't condition their body properly, it would also cut down on the endless trips to the MIR of soldiers complaining of back injuries, mostly attributed to the fact that they have severe muscular imbalances brought on by a combination of factors, one of which is improper physical conditioning.

I would like to see squats, pullups, and benchpress implemented into the CF Expres test as I believe strength is an important physical fitness component which the CF has, much to my chagrin, overlooked.


----------



## ballz

Maybe we should keep in perspective costs here too... It doesn't cost a cent to provide the equipment for soldiers to run, do pushups, situps, burpees, planks, supermans, and other bodyweight exercises and circuits, and for the most part plyometrics. It is also time efficient as you can have as many people doing them at one time as you want.

I have been told that most of the PT on CAP will be crossfit (Stymiest, you will know more than I if this is true), and a guy doing BIQ in Wainwright told me crossfit is a large part of their PT. These are high-intensity high-speed workouts that have a large strength component to them. They aren't powerlifting by any means but that's a whole other ball game. I also know that the PPCLI do crossfit regularly.

However, it would be very impractical and costly for St. Jean to put all of the people going through it's magical green doors on a weight training program and provide them the necessary time and equipment required. It would also be dangerous to put a lot of people on any serious lifting programs and because a lot of people have never lifted before. It certainly would be dangerous to start making new recruits to do heavy, compound lifts for 3 reps. And who is to teach them this superior knowledge? the PSP staff? Kratos already made his opinion clear on personal trainers and the like. I don't think the PSP would be very good when it comes to powerlifting, or at least not the one at St. Jean...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

ballz said:
			
		

> Maybe we should keep in perspective costs here too... It doesn't cost a cent to provide the equipment for soldiers to run, do pushups, situps, burpees, planks, supermans, and other bodyweight exercises and circuits, and for the most part plyometrics. It is also time efficient as you can have as many people doing them at one time as you want.
> 
> I have been told that most of the PT on CAP will be crossfit (Stymiest, you will know more than I if this is true), and a guy doing BIQ in Wainwright told me crossfit is a large part of their PT. These are high-intensity high-speed workouts that have a large strength component to them. They aren't powerlifting by any means but that's a whole other ball game. I also know that the PPCLI do crossfit regularly.
> 
> However, it would be very impractical and costly for St. Jean to put all of the people going through it's magical green doors on a weight training program and provide them the necessary time and equipment required. It would also be dangerous to put a lot of people on any serious lifting programs and because a lot of people have never lifted before. It certainly would be dangerous to start making new recruits to do heavy, compound lifts for 3 reps. And who is to teach them this superior knowledge? the PSP staff? Kratos already made his opinion clear on personal trainers and the like. I don't think the PSP would be very good when it comes to powerlifting, or at least not the one at St. Jean...



I agree with basically everything you say above, it would be cost prohibitive; potentially what could be done is give an introductory course to powerlifting (this actually occurs on CAP albeit its only a day long and you don't practice with any actual weight)

With this being said though, I am a firm believer that atleast for the Infantry Corps a greater emphasis needs to be placed on strength training.  I was just thinking about all the useless morning PT I have done and how a few of those mornings could of been put to good use teaching people how to properly train with weights etc.


----------



## Ascendant

scottyg said:
			
		

> Haha Kratos is enraged...yeah I do every muscle type, you wanted to talk about how you only bench so I figured we stay on topic...keep doing it your way, I am sure it will work out for you
> 
> And for someone who takes no one's advice you sure seem to follow "Mr. Rippetoe" and other people down to the T...
> 
> This thread is sad.



I'm not enraged.

I don't only train my bench by benching. I help improve my bench by doing upper back and tricep work. 

You're right, it will work for me, as it has worked for many people before me. It comes back to the pudding thing.

I follow no one down to a tee. You don't even know who Mark Rippetoe is, nor do you know what either of the Starting Strength books are about, so I don't see how you can comment on that.

Also, I keep an online training log, at a place where people pass information back and forth. Many people have success with varying sorts of programming. Receiving input from all angles, from people who have been successful, to compile something that works for you is not following someone to a tee.



			
				Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> The quality of a thread is what you make of it. You and Kratos should both give your heads a shake.
> 
> If you think you'll have all this extra time on your hands during your recruit training, you've got a big suprise coming.
> 
> OWDU



I'm not looking to join the military anymore. 

It really doesn't fit with my lifestyle, passions or interests. No sense in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.



			
				Stymiest said:
			
		

> This thread is a mess; however, Kratos did bring up some good points, albeit it got lost in all the BS
> 
> The biggest one was his contestation that the army way of fitness aka running, situps, pushups, will take you to the end of the earth.
> 
> I am of the same ilk and I believe this is the biggest mistake the army is making with is indoctrinating new recruits into a mentality that pushups, situps, and running are all that is required.
> 
> The only reason the army does this is because these exercises are easy and any average joe blow can do them.  However, basing your entire fitness model of this is incredibly stupid in my opinion and seeing tonnes of soldiers walking around with collapsed chests and crapped out backs is providing me with evidence that I am right.
> 
> Do I necessarily think that we should scrap what we do now, no of course not, however, we should be encouraging members to attain a higher level of fitness then they presently have and introduce them to superior methods of training.
> 
> Making powerlifting and strength training an integral part of the fitness component in the military would not only benefit the forces from an operational perspective as we would have stronger more capable soldiers who aren't broken by the time they are thirty because they didn't condition their body properly, it would also cut down on the endless trips to the MIR of soldiers complaining of back injuries, mostly attributed to the fact that they have severe muscular imbalances brought on by a combination of factors, one of which is improper physical conditioning.
> 
> I would like to see squats, pullups, and benchpress implemented into the CF Expres test as I believe strength is an important physical fitness component which the CF has, much to my chagrin, overlooked.



Nice post.

I don't really know much to comment, but I don't think the military would go through that trouble. Teaching people how to squat properly can be an arduous task, especially if the instructors themselves cannot perform a proper squat.

I completely agree, though, regarding the volume of certain types of training, mainly push ups. When they have these kids constantly pumping out a high number of push ups, are they considering what they could be creating. Sure, do massive amounts of push ups with no back work at all. 

Let's see if we can have all these kids' pecs guitar string tight and their shoulders hunched over. Maybe after this, we can have them do more physical activity, putting weight over their head to see if we can tear any rotator cuffs.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Maybe we should keep in perspective costs here too... It doesn't cost a cent to provide the equipment for soldiers to run, do pushups, situps, burpees, planks, supermans, and other bodyweight exercises and circuits, and for the most part plyometrics. It is also time efficient as you can have as many people doing them at one time as you want.
> 
> I have been told that most of the PT on CAP will be crossfit (Stymiest, you will know more than I if this is true), and a guy doing BIQ in Wainwright told me crossfit is a large part of their PT. These are high-intensity high-speed workouts that have a large strength component to them. They aren't powerlifting by any means but that's a whole other ball game. I also know that the PPCLI do crossfit regularly.
> 
> However, it would be very impractical and costly for St. Jean to put all of the people going through it's magical green doors on a weight training program and provide them the necessary time and equipment required. It would also be dangerous to put a lot of people on any serious lifting programs and because a lot of people have never lifted before. It certainly would be dangerous to start making new recruits to do heavy, compound lifts for 3 reps. And who is to teach them this superior knowledge? the PSP staff? Kratos already made his opinion clear on personal trainers and the like. I don't think the PSP would be very good when it comes to powerlifting, or at least not the one at St. Jean...



After a while, you have to introduce resistance, or else your progress will stagnate. What are you going to do, keep increasing the time on planks until you're doing them for ten minutes? Even during training, they could have recruits perform sit ups holding a ruck sack behind there heads and push ups and pull/chin ups with a weighted pack on their back.

Personally, I hate Crossfit. For the most part, it seems to be: "Here, do this random workout, perform a bazillion reps and hope your don't injure yourself."

Oh, please pay our outrageous gym fees.

Though I believe heavy compounds are a major factor in the training equation, there are also other things that can be added on top. I agree that it would be unwise to put recruits through this during training, but it would be cool if the information was provided for them to maybe look into later, in their own time.

I'm not talking about powerlifitng specifically, just the addition of heavy compound movements to strengthen the entire body. Who can't benefit from that?

These days, everything can be learned on the internet, through YouTube videos and online reading.



			
				Stymiest said:
			
		

> I agree with basically everything you say above, it would be cost prohibitive; potentially what could be done is give an introductory course to powerlifting (this actually occurs on CAP albeit its only a day long and you don't practice with any actual weight)
> 
> With this being said though, I am a firm believer that atleast for the Infantry Corps a greater emphasis needs to be placed on strength training.  I was just thinking about all the useless morning PT I have done and how a few of those mornings could of been put to good use teaching people how to properly train with weights etc.



I think everyone should know how to and properly perform the squat, deadlift and overhead press. Bench isn't really necessary, especially for general strength training. Something the majority of people don't understand is that the bench press is actually a very technical, full body lift and you can really destroy your shoulders benching improperly. I hear guys in the gym complaining about it all the time. It's not just flop down on the bench and unrack the weight.

That being said, you can severely injure yourself squatting and deadlifting too, but if you learn the proper form and start light, there won't be any issues.


----------



## PMedMoe

Kratos said:
			
		

> I think everyone should know how to and properly perform the squat, deadlift and overhead press.



For what purpose?


----------



## ballz

Kratos said:
			
		

> I'm not looking to join the military anymore.



So have you done any of the training regimes like BMQ? Because this:



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> When they have these kids constantly pumping out a high number of push ups, are they considering what they could be creating. Sure, *do massive amounts of push ups with no back work at all. *



Makes me wonder... 

While on basic I did plenty of push ups, we also did the equivalent amount of back work using body weight exercises. Heels on the ground, legs and back straight, holding a bar and pulling your chest up to it (basically the exact opposite movement of a pushup, not sure what it's called). Also did plenty of pull ups... so... what were you saying about not doing any back work?



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> After a while, you have to introduce resistance, or else your progress will stagnate. What are you going to do, keep increasing the time on planks until you're doing them for ten minutes? Even during training, they could have recruits perform sit ups holding a ruck sack behind there heads and push ups and pull/chin ups with a weighted pack on their back.



Yes, "after a while" fine and dandy, agreed. But after a while is not basic, and for most posters wondering about how to prepare for basic or get in shape for basic, which is where this all stemmed from, "after a while" is not them either.

Again, your suggestions further suggest that you haven't been on basic... After they do the Express test and send people off to WFT, there are still plenty of people around that can initially only do the bare minimum to stay on platoon, which for some people is less than 12 sit ups and less than 7 push ups... and some can't do any chin ups. 

Do you really think they require a rucksack on their back or behind their head to improve? They need to do assisted chin ups, which I believe YOU referred to earlier for people that can do less than 5, so now you're just contradicting yourself. Not on purpose of course, but just because you are obviously unaware of some of the fitness levels that are dealt with on Basic.



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> Personally, I hate Crossfit. For the most part, it seems to be: "Here, do this random workout, perform a bazillion reps and hope your don't injure yourself."



That's one discussion I'm not interested or adequately informed enough (about the Crossfit program) to have. I have heard some criticism towards it and have also heard praise. Go figure, I guess I'll end up finding out for myself soon.



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> Though I believe heavy compounds are a major factor in the training equation, there are also other things that can be added on top. I agree that it would be unwise to put recruits through this during training, but it would be cool if the information was provided for them to maybe look into later, in their own time.



New recruits are brought to the gym and introduced to basic weight lifting concepts and practice, and given what they need to "maybe look into it later, on their own time" for that. At that level, they start with the bare minimum and it's got to be standardized for the bare minimum. There's probably enough people there to take a group aside and discuss more advanced stuff with, but that isn't the goal of basic training.



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> I'm not talking about powerlifitng specifically, just the addition of heavy compound movements to strengthen the entire body. Who can't benefit from that?



I agree with you, but there are more questions to be answered than that one question.



			
				Kratos said:
			
		

> I think everyone should know how to and properly perform the squat, deadlift and overhead press. Bench isn't really necessary, especially for general strength training. Something the majority of people don't understand is that the bench press is actually a very technical, full body lift and you can really destroy your shoulders benching improperly. I hear guys in the gym complaining about it all the time. It's not just flop down on the bench and unrack the weight.
> 
> That being said, you can severely injure yourself squatting and deadlifting too, but if you learn the proper form and start light, there won't be any issues.



Yes but you are also talking about a group of 2-3 PSP staff (limited staff and instruction) in a gym with 60 people with limited equipment and floor space. Like I said, there are a variety of questions that need to be answered and they all come down to the question that seems to hover over pretty much everything in life, "how can be best utilize our resources for maximum efficiency."


----------



## PuckChaser

After reading through all this garbage, I really just have 2 questions for Kratos:

1. You seem to talk like a pro, but have not listed any qualifications other than "I do this all the time", to make me or believe any of your rants.
2. If you don't want to join the CF, nor have been in it in the past, how do you know exactly what we need to be fit to fight?


----------



## Fusaki

Kratos said:
			
		

> I think everyone should know how to and properly perform the squat, deadlift and overhead press.





			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> For what purpose?



Simply, these are the fewest movements that affect the widest range of muscle groups.  Unlike bodyweight exercises, which build endurance, lifting heavy in these three exercises will increase strength and power, and they are better at strengthening ligaments and increasing bone density.  They will make you more resistant to injury, and you won't develop the same kind of excess mass that is typically associated with bodybuilding.

People above have talked about strength training vs crossfit, but the systems _don't_ conflict. This kind of strength training makes up a full third of crossfit programming, with the other two thirds being work capacity and endurance. Mark Rippetoe, the _world class_ strength coach mentioned above, was one of the driving forces behind Crossfit (before a falling out with Greg Glassman).  Most crossfitters agree that strength training is the most important component of crossfit, and being strong benefits other areas of fitness, but not necessarily the other way around. I heard about Rippetoe's program through doing crossfit, and now I've been doing Rippetoe's program to get better at crossfit.


----------



## PMedMoe

Wonderbread, thanks for the explanation.


----------



## ballz

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> People above have talked about strength training vs crossfit, but the systems _don't_ conflict. This kind of strength training makes up a full third of crossfit programming



"These are high-intensity high-speed workouts *that have a large strength component* to them."

I would just like to point out that I wasn't one of those people. I said I didn't know enough about Crossfit to have an informed opinion of whether it's any good or not.


----------



## Fusaki

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> After reading through all this garbage, I really just have 2 questions for Kratos:
> 
> 1. You seem to talk like a pro, but have not listed any qualifications other than "I do this all the time", to make me or believe any of your rants.
> 2. If you don't want to join the CF, nor have been in it in the past, how do you know exactly what we need to be fit to fight?



If I may...

What the CF "needs" is always open to debate. But...

Kratos' advice is right in line with what I know about fitness.  It seems like stymiest, coming off his Phase 3, agrees with him (more or less) as well.  This is _not_ old school run/ruck/run/ruck PT.  This is _not_ bodybuilding, either.  This is a modern approach to strength training. 

I personally believe this kind of training should form the basis of military fitness, and then be _combined_ with other exercises to produce well rounded tactical athletes.  These compound lifts will make soldiers strong and durable first, and then the benefits will carry over to the development of work capacity, speed, stamina, and endurance.


----------



## PuckChaser

I will definitely agree that the CF needs to look at how we do physical fitness. Kratos very well may be right, but right now it looks like the ramblings from the outside looking in. Being a CF member, I would be more inclined to follow something you're saying, especially being in a Cmbt Arms trade requiring excellent physical abilities, because you've been there. Even with just a few weblinks tossed in as sources, I'd be interested in hearing more, especially since I've had difficulty trying to get into a strength training regimen that actually works, instead of wasting an hour in the gym using a few machines and hoping I'm doing it right.


----------



## Ascendant

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> After reading through all this garbage, I really just have 2 questions for Kratos:
> 
> 1. You seem to talk like a pro, but have not listed any qualifications other than "I do this all the time", to make me or believe any of your rants.
> 2. If you don't want to join the CF, nor have been in it in the past, how do you know exactly what we need to be fit to fight?



I don't talk like a pro. I never step outside the boundaries of my knowledge.

Qualifications, none. I could go take an $80, one day course to get "certified", though...

That's fine if you don't believe me.

Strength + endurance would seem to be a pretty good guess.

Low rep training = Strength, with (depending on your diet) little, if any size gain. Low rep training will also be much easier to recover from and cause less soreness, allowing you to still do intense cardio and muscle conditioning afterward.


----------



## Ascendant

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I will definitely agree that the CF needs to look at how we do physical fitness. Kratos very well may be right, but right now it looks like the ramblings from the outside looking in. Being a CF member, I would be more inclined to follow something you're saying, especially being in a Cmbt Arms trade requiring excellent physical abilities, because you've been there. Even with just a few weblinks tossed in as sources, I'd be interested in hearing more, especially since I've had difficulty trying to get into a strength training regimen that actually works, instead of wasting an hour in the gym using a few machines and hoping I'm doing it right.



Take a look at the Stronglifts 5x5 program or Starting Strength.


----------



## 1feral1

Kratos said:
			
		

> I'm not looking to join the military anymore.
> 
> It really doesn't fit with my lifestyle, passions or interests. No sense in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.



Good. 

You were quite keen until 18 days ago when you got rejected (post no. 27 of your posting history).

Individuals with attitudes fail and weaken a team environment anyways.


----------



## Ascendant

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Good.
> 
> You were quite keen until 18 days ago when you got rejected (post no. 27 of your posting history).
> 
> Individuals with attitudes fail and weaken a team environment anyways.



You're right, I did not get accepted to for ROTP. I put down one trade that interested me (apparently one with a large amount of people vying for it), and even then, I was almost relieved when I got rejected. I was never really _that_ keen and certainly not after I realized I'd be doing something I wasn't passionate about. It became very clear to me that I simply wasn't willing to make the necessary sacrifices needed to join the military.

Thank you for your informed opinion on my attitude and team member qualities, though.


----------



## Fusaki

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Good.
> 
> You were quite keen until 18 days ago when you got rejected (post no. 27 of your posting history).
> 
> Individuals with attitudes fail and weaken a team environment anyways.





			
				Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> *The quality of a thread is what you make of it.*


----------



## SevenSixTwo

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> If I may...
> 
> What the CF "needs" is always open to debate. But...
> 
> Kratos' advice is right in line with what I know about fitness.  It seems like stymiest, coming off his Phase 3, agrees with him (more or less) as well.  This is _not_ old school run/ruck/run/ruck PT.  This is _not_ bodybuilding, either.  This is a modern approach to strength training.
> 
> I personally believe this kind of training should form the basis of military fitness, and then be _combined_ with other exercises to produce well rounded tactical athletes.  These compound lifts will make soldiers strong and durable first, and then the benefits will carry over to the development of work capacity, speed, stamina, and endurance.





Semi-on topic here: Did anyone else see that article on military.com about how the U.S. Military is "killing" the old physical fitness system? Ex) They are getting rid of jogging for sprint intervals (no one jogs on the battlefield).

For the life of me I can't find the article at the moment.


----------



## mariomike

SevenSixTwo said:
			
		

> Semi-on topic here: Did anyone else see that article on military.com about how the U.S. Military is "killing" the old physical fitness system? Ex) They are getting rid of jogging for sprint intervals (no one jogs on the battlefield).
> For the life of me I can't find the article at the moment.



Is this it?:
http://www.military.com/military-fitness/law-enforcement-training/need-for-speed-and-endurance


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> If I may...
> 
> What the CF "needs" is always open to debate. But...
> 
> Kratos' advice is right in line with what I know about fitness.  It seems like stymiest, coming off his Phase 3, agrees with him (more or less) as well.  This is _not_ old school run/ruck/run/ruck PT.  This is _not_ bodybuilding, either.  This is a modern approach to strength training.
> 
> I personally believe this kind of training should form the basis of military fitness, and then be _combined_ with other exercises to produce well rounded tactical athletes.  These compound lifts will make soldiers strong and durable first, and then the benefits will carry over to the development of work capacity, speed, stamina, and endurance.



Love it Wonderbread, you just nailed it on the head, and you used my favorite word "tactical athlete"

I draw my conclusions on this topic from what I have seen in the training system so far but I also draw it from two years of Ontario University Athletics experience playing rugby as well as high level ice hockey, and martial arts training.  When I played varsity rugby we were very fortunate to have a professional kinesiologist assigned to our team, training programs were devloped, I spent the entire off season following different exercise routines.  This taught me alot about how to train and how to train properly.

Soldiers are Athlete's, and the Canadian Forces in my opinion needs to start treating them as such, this is going to take some time but I believe that we would see some major benefits if we adopted modern training methods within the military.


----------



## Trackman

I haven't done any Military courses at this point and I don't know what kind of fitness you would need.  But I can tell you if you do decide to do a weight training program, try to stick to relevant exercises.  Otherwise, you're better off running hills and doing general strength exercises.  For the majority of you, I would suggest general strength exercises first since it seems like there are few who have been lifting weights long enough to understand which lifts are most beneficial.  As far as general strength exercises go, you can find plenty on the internet.  If I were to post a page of the names them, you would still be better off searching the internet and finding how they're done.  And if you do decide to go straight to weights, stick to dumbbells for the first while.  And stay away from the machines, useless.  EDIT: Like scottyg suggested...  oh and never forget lower body.  If you leave you're lower body out of your workouts, you are doing yourself no favors.


----------



## DiamondDarryl

Ok, there is a right way to train and a wrong way. If your "fitness" goals include standing on stage in a speedo with a spray tan then by all means follow scotty's advice. If not then Kratos's advice is bang on. 

Far too many posters on this thread have the wrong idea of what fitness is. The minimum physical requirements for the CF are a joke and it really is a shame that more people are not as serious about training as Kratos or Scotty, regardless of whose right.  Push ups, sit ups, and running is good and all, but can only take you so far. They are a good indicator of strength and endurance against your body weight but that's about it. I'm sick of seeing kids show up to the battalion unable to flip LAV tires or carry more then one A-frame at a time. Strength is not relative, there is only CAN and CAN NOT.


----------



## Trackman

DiamondDarryl said:
			
		

> Ok, there is a right way to train and a wrong way. If your "fitness" goals include standing on stage in a speedo with a spray tan then by all means follow scotty's advice. If not then Kratos's advice is bang on.
> 
> *Far too many posters on this thread have the wrong idea of what fitness is. *The minimum physical requirements for the CF are a joke and it really is a shame that more people are not as serious about training as Kratos or Scotty, regardless of whose right.  *Push ups, sit ups, and running is good and all, but can only take you so far.* They are a good indicator of strength and endurance against your body weight but that's about it. I'm sick of seeing kids show up to the battalion unable to flip LAV tires or carry more then one A-frame at a time. Strength is not relative, there is only CAN and CAN NOT.



I strongly disagree, and honestly I would have to say you're one of those people you've addressed.  I tend to only read and post only when I have questions, but I felt the need to reply to a post because for once, I do know the topic very well.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

dude have you read any of the previous pages of posts, we have been talking about functional fitness for the military

I thought DiamondDarryl's post was bang on


----------



## Ascendant

Trackman said:
			
		

> I strongly disagree, and honestly I would have to say you're one of those people you've addressed.  I tend to only read and post only when I have questions, but I felt the need to reply to a post because for once, I do know the topic very well.



You say yourself you have done no courses, yet you disagree?

If you can run do push ups and sit ups for days, but can't lift/drag/push/etc something moderately heavy, is that alright?

DiamondDarryl seems to be speaking from experience, which holds a bit more weight. (No pun intended.)


----------



## Trackman

Kratos said:
			
		

> You say yourself you have done no courses, yet you disagree?
> 
> If you can run do push ups and sit ups for days, but can't lift/drag/push/etc something moderately heavy, is that alright?
> 
> DiamondDarryl seems to be speaking from experience, which holds a bit more weight. (No pun intended.)



When I last read DiamondDarryl's post, it seemed like he was talking about fitness.  Sorry but I didn't know the general concept of fitness is altered once you enter into the military.  My general understanding about these courses is that the mental aspect of it is what makes it so difficult.  Therefore if the advice had been about what general mindset you should aim to preserve throughout a course, I would accept it with no arguments in most cases.  But this isn't the case right now.  This thread is about fitness.  There a numerous ways to go about it.  From personal experience as a national athlete, I assure you I am much more experienced when it comes to fitness and general weight programs that the majority of the posters and/or readers.  And actually, during a cycle of my training, I did only run, and all weightless exercises.  And guess what, I can most likely squat and clean twice more than most people here and promise my bench isn't far behind.  So your argument makes no sense.  If you run, and add general strength exercises(primarily weightless), you will be able lift/drag/push something moderately heavy.  Perhaps you should think about which area of experience is really relevant for this thread addressing fitness and weight programs.

EDIT: I left out my 2 rep maxes for those lifts. 245 cleans, 455 squat, but that was 3x5, haven't maxed for a while, and 265 bench.  I weigh 185.  Don't believe me, pm me if you are in Ottawa and I'll gladly show you.  Oh, and pushups and situps during offseason, 49 and 46.  Much better now though, and I can prove that too.  But those were my first official PT test results.
EDIT#2: Y.O.B.: 1990


----------



## Trackman

I apologize then.  I only brought what I could do in an attempt to defend myself quickly.  Regardless of how conceded it may be.  Anyway I'll stay out of this thread.  But don't be clouded by the notion that you can't develop a mixture of strength and fitness without touching weights for the majority of your workout.  This may be the best way to begin and a workout strategy that should not only be used at the beginning, but throughout the period of time you workout over the years.  Anyways, I apologize again and really hope you all find what works best.


----------



## Ascendant

Summed up, here are the points I've been arguing this thread:

1) Every person in the military (especially those in combat positions) should know and perform heavy compounds lifts to build strength.
2) Doing weighted sit ups, push ups and chin ups will only make you stronger and better at the unweighted variations.
3) You gain still train for strength while maintaining and/or improving muscle conditioning and cardio.

Trackman, no hard feelings here, but: 

1. A 245 clean is not that impressive.
2. At 185 BW, I highly doubt you can perform a _full_, _proper_ squat with 455 once. Claiming three sets of five is utterly ridiculous. That would put your max somewhere around 550-570. There's nothing to even say about that, other than it's an absolutely ridiculous claim.
3. 265 bench is decent, but nothing special. Is that to the chest? Last year, the highest raw bench in the 181 class at IPF Worlds was 562. The guy weighed 180.

If you'd like to discuss any of those, feel free to shoot me a PM, so this thread isn't locked down again.


----------



## Ascendant

Trackman said:
			
		

> But don't be clouded by the notion that you can't develop a mixture of strength and fitness without touching weights for the majority of your workout.



It's been made quite clear what the base level of fitness for the military is, and how to achieve it.

This thread has evolved into discussing how sometimes, that is simply not adequate for some military personnel and could stand to be improved.


----------



## Runnalls

Heavy lifting is where its at.  That builds true strength.

Push and pull, compound lifting, working with heavy weight.

I train in and around all kinds of military members in Ottawa, and maybee its the fact that they are just desk jockeys for the most part, but good lord 90% of them need some serious coaching when it comes to strength.


----------



## Dou You

Kratos said:
			
		

> 2. At 185 BW, I highly doubt you can perform a _full_, _proper_ squat with 455 once. Claiming three sets of five is utterly ridiculous. That would put your max somewhere around 550-570. There's nothing to even say about that, other than it's an absolutely ridiculous claim.



I believe Trackman was caught on tape performing a set of his "squats"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPVueWS8_aw
Sorry, I had to  .

All jokes aside though, compound exercises incorporate the most muscle activation throughout the body as a whole during the movement. More "total body activation" equals more "total body strength". Not to mention that most compound lifts are more specific to everyday lifting. Push-ups are a great exercise, however, when is this used in every day lifting or pressing? Maybe once in a while you will find yourself on your back with a heavy object laying on top of you, then a push-up MAY come in handy...however, will you press this heavy object off and on to your body 19 times  (the CF minimum requirement of push-ups for males, I believe) before actually trying to press it off of you? No. You will push it up and off of you just once. So why train yourself to do push-ups (19 or more times) when strength training with a proper bench press would help you much more in this situation? 

I know the above situation may happen rarely, so it brings me to my second point. During the day most lifiting/pressing for both civilian and military personnel wouldn't be with your chest, it would be mostly with your legs and back, and for overhead pressing/pushing, your shoulders as well. So the core compound exercises, which are the squat, deadlift, and military press (the three Kratos mentioned everyone should know) would be a much more superior tool for training for everyday lifting in the military. To me these three lifts should be the core of any training program, with a mix of other compound lifts, isolation lifts, body-weight lifts (such as push-ups, pull-ups, and dips), speed/agility exercises, and cardio to fill in the rest of the program. This in all would build the "Tactical Athlete" (an amazing term by the way   :nod the military should desire. I believe the key to military training should be balance, but the most important exercises in it should be the three key compound exercises.

To conclude, I have not been on any military training program yet and I am not claiming I know what the military should change with regards to training. After all I have not participated in any military program and, for now, I'm just a civilian looking in. I just really love discussions on training, and if not for the love of flying, I would have a pursued a career in the business of athletic training through my Kinesiology degree. I just wanted to put my two cents in, and hopefully once I am in the military and have more experience with the training of it's members I can include more..."cents?".  ;D 

Cheers!


----------



## Runnalls

Dou You said:
			
		

> I know the above situation may happen rarely, so it brings me to my second point. During the day most lifiting/pressing for both civilian and military personnel wouldn't be with your chest, it would be mostly with your legs and back, and for overhead pressing/pushing, your shoulders as well. So the core compound exercises, which are the squat, deadlift, and military press (the three Kratos mentioned everyone should know) would be a much more superior tool for training for everyday lifting in the military. To me these three lifts should be the core of any training program, with a mix of other compound lifts, isolation lifts, body-weight lifts (such as push-ups, pull-ups, and dips), speed/agility exercises, and cardio to fill in the rest of the program. This in all would build the "Tactical Athlete" (an amazing term by the way   :nod the military should desire. I believe the key to military training should be balance, but the most important exercises in it should be the three key compound exercises.
> 
> Cheers!



4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.  It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week.  If you really want to find a great strength training program that still allows you to pile on exhuberrent amounts of conditioninig through running distance and sprinting everyone should google "Wendler 5-3-1".


----------



## Dou You

Runnalls said:
			
		

> 4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.



I most definitely know that the Bench Press is a compound lift, and that is why I recommended it over push-ups  . I started out by talking about compound lifts and I assumed that everyone reading the post would realize that I was telling them it is indeed a compound lift once I recommended it over push-ups. However, to clarify my second point, lifting during a typical day doesn't include perpendicular lifts and presses to your chest that often. If you think about it, if something heavy needed to be pushed in to a wall perpendicular to the floor,you wouldn't stand in an upright bench press position to push it in would you? No, you would make yourself perpendicular by bending at the knees and hips, and staggering your feet (mainly using your legs to push it in), which then brings your arms up above your head (simulating the military press). Although the bench press is an extremely valuable tool for total body strength as you mentioned, it is not as applicable to typical daily activities as the squat, deadlift, and military press are. That was the point I wanted to get across.



			
				Runnalls said:
			
		

> It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week.



As for the bit on training these exercises everyday, anyone would be foolish to suggest that! I think there was a misunderstanding. I didn't mean "everyday lifting" as doing these lifts every day; I meant it as the typical daily lifting/pressing one undergoes during their job,work around the house, etc. My bad if it was confusing... 



			
				Runnalls said:
			
		

> Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.



I'm not a Grad...yet  . I'm only two years into the process (3 more to go). I just love training conversations, and training in general, and I couldn't miss out on this one!  :nod:


----------



## eSample2K7

Strengh cannot be gained in the few months before basic training. Doing 8 to 12 reps is the ideal time for a muscle to be under stress to spark muscle growth and protein synthesis. Strengh is gained by lifting heavy. Theres no two ways about is. Use a pyramid system. This is where you start at around 50% of your max for around 10 reps. Every set add weight until your at your max and do 2 to 3 sets of 1 or 2 reps. This is seriously how get strong. And with strengh will come the size you want. Eat more than you ever have and incorporate the 4 best moves for strengh and mass. Bench press, squat, deadlift, and military press. These excersizes incorparate the most muscle fibers. And as much as cardio is incredibly important in the forces, for a 6,3 160 pound you have to cut out cardio COMPLETELY or I promise you you will not gain. I was in the same situation and I gained nearly 30 pounds. Cardio after you get your desired size


----------



## Ascendant

eSample2K7 said:
			
		

> Strengh cannot be gained in the few months before basic training. Doing 8 to 12 reps is the ideal time for a muscle to be under stress to spark muscle growth and protein synthesis. Strengh is gained by lifting heavy. Theres no two ways about is. Use a pyramid system. This is where you start at around 50% of your max for around 10 reps. Every set add weight until your at your max and do 2 to 3 sets of 1 or 2 reps. This is seriously how get strong. And with strengh will come the size you want. Eat more than you ever have and incorporate the 4 best moves for strengh and mass. Bench press, squat, deadlift, and military press. These excersizes incorparate the most muscle fibers. And as much as cardio is incredibly important in the forces, for a 6,3 160 pound you have to cut out cardio COMPLETELY or I promise you you will not gain. I was in the same situation and I gained nearly 30 pounds. Cardio after you get your desired size



1. You can certainly make appreciable gains in strength in two months.
2. 8-12 reps? No. Maybe for assistance work. Regarding the muscle growth and protein synthesis, can you back up your claims with some evidence?
3. The whole "pyramid" thing is garbage. Also, if it's your max, how are you supposed to do 2-3 sets of 1-2 reps? You can't expect to work up to and train at your max every day. That's ridiculous.
4. You don't have to completely stop cardio if you want to get bigger, you just have to eat more.


----------



## Ascendant

Runnalls said:
			
		

> 4 compound excercises!! You can't leave the bench press off that list of compound excercises.  Being a Kinesology Grad you should know that the bench press when performed correctly (shoulder blades touching, back arched, legs bowed and stretching, heels driven to the ground) is in fact a full body lift.  It shouldn't be trained every day, let alone every week.  If you really want to find a great strength training program that still allows you to pile on exhuberrent amounts of conditioninig through running distance and sprinting everyone should google "Wendler 5-3-1".



Although the bench is a great upper body strength builder, you can definitely get by perfectly fine without doing it.

For every day life and strenuous tasks, I'd say the strict press and something like jerks or BTN push press are much more applicable.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Gentlemen, keep the discussion at a reasonable level of tone. There are many methods and each person finds the ones they prefer. If you continue this debate, debate facts not opinions, and back it up with references and not just more emphasis, otherwise it's just a bunch of_ "she says - she says"_.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Fusaki

A little while back I got a PM from a member here asking what I thought about fitness training prior to BMQ.  While the ideas in my response have already been covered in bits and pieces throughout this thread, I'll re-post the PM here for the sake of bringing it all together and sharing my own broad philosophy on military fitness.

Comments are welcome.



> As far as fitness goes, that's the subject of considerable debate.  When I left my Reg Force unit we were doing Crossfit with added ruck marches almost exclusively.  This was a VERY modern approach to fitness and hadn't quite caught on yet with other unit's organized PT.  Crossfit, for the most part, is done by guys who work out on their own time.
> 
> Most infantry units tend to stick to more traditional PT.  Usually this is a mix of long runs, long ruck marches, and circuit training.  I think, in time, this method will fall by the wayside and Crossfit-type training will become the focus.
> 
> If you skim my posting history over the past few months you'll see that I'm pretty outspoken on the issue of PT, and there are some who disagree with me.  I think the best you can do is educate yourself on a range of opinions and see for yourself what makes the most sense.  Personally, if I were to join the army again knowing what I know now, I would probably prepare like this:
> 
> I would do Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength Program until I was at the level of a "Novice" in strength training.
> http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki
> 
> This is a pure strength program, not bodybuilding.  It focuses exclusively on a few major compound lifts.  No running, no rucking, or anything else.  I believe that if someone were to take the time to develop a strong strength base before moving to other areas of fitness (work capacity, endurance, ect) they would make faster and safer long term gains.  Nothing beats pure strength training for developing ligament strength and bone density, and the compound lifts strengthen muscles in proper proportion to each other.  You will get bigger on this program, but not in the same way that a bodybuilder would.  The emphasise is on developing strength first and foremost, which requires different training than what you would do when going for size.
> 
> Once you've stopped making linear gains on Rippetoe's program, I'd switch to Crossfit.
> www.crossfit.com
> 
> This is where you become a well-rounded athlete.  Crossfit specializes in not-specializing, which is why it's becoming so popular.  This is where you start developing stamina by going for runs, increasing muscle endurance with lots of pushups and pullups, increasing strength and power through the Olympic lifts, and developing work capacity through exertion against the clock.  Crossfit is, in my opinion, a VERY good system.  I'll emphasize though, that you'll do better at Crossfit if you take the time to do Rip's program first.
> 
> Once you've got a grip on Crossfit, I'd start alternating days of crossfit.com + crossfitendurance.com and crossfitfootball.com. Crossfit Football is essentially crossfit offshoot that emphasizes short fast sprints and heavy strength training.  Crossfit Endurance is a supplement to the Crossfit main site and focuses on training for stamina.  These two programs, used together, would provide a VERY well rounded military athlete.  When it's winter and too cold to run outside, I'd probably leave the Crossfit for a bit and go back to a novice strength training program.  In my mind, strength training really is that important.  And I hate the cold.
> 
> I would not worry about rucking until you're actually in the army.  When you are, once a week is probably good enough.  Most guys have never lifted a rucksack prior to basic training and we all get through it.  While it's important once you're in (especially in infantry units), you're better off using your time beforehand getting in good all around physical condition.  Rucking is about conditioning the body and the mind more than anything else.  Having a high level of general fitness goes a long way in making it easier.
> 
> If I posted the above on the open forum I'm sure some would agree with it, while others would critique the hell out of it.  Each person is different and you can't really define the "right" way.  What I've written is just a reflection of my own experience doing the army guy job for a little while, and the result of long arguments with guys who also think they have the "best" way.
> 
> It's not gospel, but I think it will give you a good place to get started in your own research.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> -WB


----------



## Ascendant

Pretty close to gospel.

Personally, I'm not a fan of CrossFit, but it definitely has it's applications.


----------



## Dou You

Strength training programs, like Mark Rippetoe's are essential in beginner gains in strength. And I believe to be successful with CrossFit, you definitely need a solid base of strength. Personally, I wouldn't do it until you've also gained enough knowledge in training/exercise as well, as really knowing the science of what training is could be the difference of just making gains and _efficiently_ making gains. And efficiency is key in the military, and in life for that matter. But I have known many amazing athletes that have come out of the CrossFit program, so it is definitely useful...it just has to be used at the right time.


----------



## ltmaverick25

Ive been taking a close look at crossfit for a while.  Those guys are definitly in much better shape then I am so ive wondered, do I need to get in shape for crossfit, or just jump in.  I asked that question to the crossfit people, they say just jump in but im wondering if thats more to up subscriptions then meaningful advice.  Any thoughts how to determine when one is ready to start up crossfit?


----------



## Ascendant

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Ive been taking a close look at crossfit for a while.  Those guys are definitly in much better shape then I am so ive wondered, do I need to get in shape for crossfit, or just jump in.  I asked that question to the crossfit people, they say just jump in but im wondering if thats more to up subscriptions then meaningful advice.  Any thoughts how to determine when one is ready to start up crossfit?



You can certainly start right now. Every one "starts" lifting weights at some point.

You just do what you can and build on it. As with any sort of weight lifting, it's about progress and constantly challenging yourself, no matter what level you're at. You have to be consistent, as well. Without consistency, you don't really have anything, to be honest.


----------



## Fusaki

Just jump in.

There is no need to subscribe to anything.  You _could_ join a Crossfit Gym if you wanted, but they're expensive and if you're in the army you probably have access to all the gear you need for free.

Just keep two things in mind:

1) Learn the exercises.  crossfit.com has a video library of how to do all the exercises.

2) Scale the work outs to your ability.  Take Wednesday's workout from crossfit.com as an example:

Complete as many rounds in 12 minutes as you can of:
185 pound Front squat, 5 reps
10 Chest to bar Pull-ups
20 Double-unders

If you don't think that you can keep that up at even a slow pace for 12 minutes, then drop the weight.  There's nothing that says you can't do 135lb Front Squats x5 and only 5 Pull-ups per round. Just scale the workouts to something you can do without hurting yourself, and you'll be fine.


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## ltmaverick25

I hit the weight room 3 x per week and do a run 2 x per week, but, im almost certain that the intensity level isnt the same as I would get out of the group atmosphere.  I think I will try the jump in approach at one of the crossfit places and hope nothing breaks!


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## Runnalls

Kratos said:
			
		

> Take a look at the Stronglifts 5x5 program or Starting Strength.



Google 'Wendler 5/3/1'

Wendler is the god of powerlifting and strength training.


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## Runnalls

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> 2) Scale the work outs to your ability.  Take Wednesday's workout from crossfit.com as an example:
> 
> Complete as many rounds in 12 minutes as you can of:
> 185 pound Front squat, 5 reps
> 10 Chest to bar Pull-ups
> 20 Double-unders
> 
> If you don't think that you can keep that up at even a slow pace for 12 minutes, then drop the weight.  There's nothing that says you can't do 135lb Front Squats x5 and only 5 Pull-ups per round. Just scale the workouts to something you can do without hurting yourself, and you'll be fine.



This is totally true.  That workout is one of the best ways to improve on your V02 usage as well.  It's a guaranteed way to get you sucking some pretty serious wind after 12 minutes.  Especially if you did it AFTER your strength training, whoa, watch out fat cells!


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## Ascendant

SpaceMonkey_10 said:
			
		

> Google 'Wendler 5/3/1'
> 
> Wendler is the god of powerlifting and strength training.



I'm well aware of Jim Wendler and the 5/3/1 program. I definitely would call him the "God" of powerlifting and strength training. His program is popular and applicable for beginner/intermediate lifters, but to be honest, I don't know of any really strong guys who use it. There are also aspects of the program some disagree with.

There are plenty of programs and methodologies out there. Which one you choose to use will be decided on your goals, priorities and personal experience concerning your body and training.

Starting Strength, Sheiko, Hepburn, Smolov, Coan Phillipi, etc...


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## Runnalls

Kratos said:
			
		

> but to be honest, I don't know of any really strong guys who use it. There are also aspects of the program some disagree with.



Hi I'm Aaron.  I'm strong, 2110 lbs combined.    ;D

Keep posting Kratos I love reading your arguments.


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## Ascendant

SpaceMonkey_10 said:
			
		

> Hi I'm Aaron.  I'm strong, 2110 lbs combined.    ;D
> 
> Keep posting Kratos I love reading your arguments.



Just to clarify, you're trying to tell me your big three total is 2110? 

Raw?
Age?
Weight?
Drug free?
Videos?


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## krustyrl

Reminds me of an old saying my MCpl used to say so often...

"Dear Mr Atlas, finished program....please send muscle.!!"      ;D


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## Dou You

Kratos said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, you're trying to tell me your big three total is 2110?


I believe he's talking in terms of Wendler's program which has a "big four". Squat, Deadlift, Bench Press, Military Press.


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## Runnalls

Kratos said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, you're trying to tell me your big three total is 2110?
> 
> Raw? Yes, I lift raw now.  No gear other than a belt, chalk and some wraps.  I've used shirts and suits but never felt comfortable in them...605 bp/705 dl/800 sq
> Age? 29
> Weight? 315 (6'4)
> Drug free? yes
> Videos? yes



Used a variety of different training methods, but I've just settled with this one for now as a matter of personal preference.


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## Runnalls

Dou You said:
			
		

> I believe he's talking in terms of Wendler's program which has a "big four". Squat, Deadlift, Bench Press, Military Press.



Well no I was reffering to the big three....competition totals.  Obviously being a Wendler follower I train all 4 though.


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## Ascendant

If the videos are on YouTube, could you PM me some links? I'd definitely like to see those lifts.


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## Ascendant

Actually, you said you were referring to "competition totals", so I'm assuming that 2110 was done in a meet? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The raw world record, without knee wraps, drug tested, at 308 lbs is 2102 lbs.

The raw record at 308, drug tested, with or without knee wraps is 2217. (By Konstantin Konstantiovs, someone who, in interviews, has said "hormones" are a very important part of his training.)

The non drug tested totals for 308 are 2160 and 2363, no knee wraps and with or without knee wraps. Those records being from 1971 and 1972, respectively.


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## Dou You

SpaceMonkey_10 said:
			
		

> Well no I was reffering to the big three....competition totals.  Obviously being a Wendler follower I train all 4 though.



My mistake, I thought you were referring to your one post about Wendler, and not for competitions...I'd love to see the videos as well though if it's possible.


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## Scott

Space Monkey_10, you can provide those videos to us any time. I'll consult with the guys who seem to be SME's here to see if their legit. Otherwise, STFU.

Edited: Well, he doesn't want to provide links to videos of his astonishing diaplays of strength, I wonder why?

He's asked to have his account deleted, back on track folks.


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## Ascendant

I am shocked he couldn't produce videos of a total nearing world record territory...


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## Scott

Kratos said:
			
		

> I am shocked he *couldn't* produce videos of a total nearing world record territory...



He never said he _couln't_, he said he _didn't have to and wouldn't_. 

I got the feeling that he felt we should just bow down to his internet tough guy schtick.

Meh.


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## Ascendant

Oh, so we were just supposed to take his word for it? I've been around the good ol' internet for a while now, so that doesn't really cut it. It never does. Usually when people make claims like that, they know they're going to be asked for evidence. 

If someone is going to troll, they should at least make sure they're not using near WR figures for whatever it is.

This thread continues to be awesome.


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## Scott

Kratos said:
			
		

> Oh, so we were just supposed to take his word for it?



According to him, yes.



> I've been around the good ol' internet for a while now, so that doesn't really cut it. It never does. Usually when people make claims like that, they know they're going to be asked for evidence.



Not to derail this thread any further, but this does raise a very valid point and one that's been covered here before (think of guys coming in and posting BS military quals) There are a few threads on the site about it and we've had some spectacular flame outs over the years that I have been involved here.

Speaking of being asked for evidence: we have a guideline here that mandates a poster _qualify_ information that they post.

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html



> Folks,
> 
> We've had a few instances lately where opinion and rumour have been presented as hard evidence. Unfortunately in many cases, the information is flat out wrong.
> 
> Due to the anonymous nature of these forums, it can be hard to tell if information is coming from someone in a position to know or just someone who "has a friend whose uncle served with the Botswana Defence Force in the 70's."
> 
> So our request is this: Please qualify unconfirmed information posted here.
> 
> That is, if you didn't witness it first hand or read it in the CFAO's, state that it's an opinion, rumour or best guess. We won't think any less of you for not "knowing" the information. In fact, we'll all appreciate the honesty, and it'll likely save readers heartache later on, when they find out (the hard way) that it wasn't exactly bang on. If you do know the source, please reference it with a link or include the related information in your post. If the source information is large or takes the discussion off topic you may want to consider making use of a footnote1 to provide references and sources that back up your claims.
> 
> There are lots of discussions which take place on this forum in which either none or all of us are "experts" in some way (politics, rifles, etc).  It's great that we can all discuss the daily news and have civil debate on contentious matters, however these boards are no different than the real world, and if you provide information to back up your claim, you better be willing to give us some proof.  If you base your opinions off of hearsay and rumor, be prepared to be called to task when you use up bandwidth on this board to tell us about it.
> 
> The only other alternative is to treat every bit of information posted here as heresay, which essentially makes the forums useless.
> 
> So please, make it very clear when you're posting the degree to which your information is confirmed. Opinions and best guesses are OK, just don't present them as being the DS solution.
> 
> 
> Cheers and thanks
> 
> 
> Mike Bobbitt



Now while it seems as though the above post is more about posting info here I would venture that it could be about proving one's self i.e with videos of a near record breaking lift, yeah? In fact, if it's already on Youtube then we're not exactly going to compromise the person's security, are we? I think you can get this without further explanation.



> If someone is going to troll, they should at least make sure they're not using near WR figures for whatever it is.



Yup, and they shouldn't assume that no one else on the boards will just let those numbers fly...this guy just got caught and then got whiny when called for it, he's in for a rough ride, methinks.



> This thread continues to be awesome.



Right, then I'll bow out and let you guys get it back on track!

Cheers and thanks for the help in outing a poser.

Scott
Army.ca Staff


----------



## owa

Not sure what all the advice was, but the guy on the first page recommending you tear your muscles to shreds is a genius in my books.  It works.

I'd recommend a five set system for most muscle groups.

first set:  8-10 reps.
second set:  8-10 reps.
third set:  4-6 reps.
fourth set: 4-6 reps.
fifth set:  2-3 reps.

Essentially you find a weight you can do for 8-10 reps.  You do that for the first two sets.  Then you find a weight you can only do 4-6 reps with.  For the final set you want something that makes you work hard.  2 reps should feel like you're moving the world, and a 3rd rep should be a dream where once you finally are able to do that with the weight, you should start increasing the weight you're moving.

At least that's how I muscle train when I want to add strength and muscle mass.  Lots of people will recommend things, but this plus sleeping, resting, and a good diet will work for you.


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## Ascendant

Scott, can you lock this thread?


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## Biggoals2bdone

Wendler is very known but id say if there are any gods of powerlifting, its Ed Coan, Louie Simmons, and Fred Hatfield Dr. Squat


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## Ascendant

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Wendler is very known but id say if there are any gods of powerlifting, its Ed Coan, Louie Simmons, and Fred Hatfield Dr. Squat



Wendler is more well known for his 5/3/1 program and coaching than he is for his lifting.

He is probably the most experienced coach when it comes to training young/beginner/intermediate lifters.

I don't know if Ed Coan does much/any official coaching.

Louie Simmons and his Westside crew/gym...Multi-ply and pharmaceuticals.


----------



## ArmyRick

I figure I would chirp in my own advice and give my thoughts based on my laboratory, my body and how it responds to weight training. I am very familiar with Wendler (I love his 5/3/1 material), Simmons, Poliquin, Thibaudeau, Hatfield, list goes on and on.

What I have found works is progressive ramps, start bold and go micro increases as weight increases. I do 1 maybe 2 exercises for per workout and maybe a little supplementary work depending on how I feel. A couple of observations I have made about strength training 

1. Build strength, the body will add whatever muscle is appropriate (eat decently too), don't go hog wild on creatine and other supplements (except basic mineral stuff like magnesium)

2. When a lifter is begining, they can do whole body workouts with 3-4 exercises. This is basically because they lift less weight and there fore it is less taxing on the body. An exaqmple would be Squats, Bench Press and Barbell Rows

3. As a lifter gets stronger and the nervous systems gets taxed more, they must reduce the number of big bang exercises in a single workout. For example they may do Squats and weighted chins on one day, Overhead press and shrugs on another.

4. My own personal lifting tolerance I find I can do 2 upper body exercises in a workout and for the squat and deadlift each one must have their own day. Now I may do a little assistance work for the squat and deadlift after I am done but because those drills kick the **** out of me, I don't go overboard.

5. Lift hard, fast and strong (explode when possible) Thibadeau reccomends this and I have found this always worked well for me

6. I also tried Thibadeau reccomendation on not taxing the eccentric portion of any lift or minimizing it as much as possible. This is a recent change I have made and it has worked very well for my own recovery

7. You must employ trial and error for yourself and see over time what works. For example I do well with sumo deadlifts but I have another friend of mine who can't do them to save his life.

8. Concentrate on the big money exercises. Squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, bench press, overhead press, shrugs, dips and pull/chin ups

9. I can do weighted dips and pull ups but I can not tolerate a high volume of either exercise. Using dips as an example after benching, I can do a set of 6-8 reps with an additional 60 lbs or I can do one all out set for 20 or so reps. But I can not do more than 2 or 3 sets for either exercise without killing myself and not working out for 2-3 days

10. Going back to progressive ramping. I am firm beleiver in 3 magic numbers (for me anyways) 1-3-5 (coincidently wendler program does 5-3-1 over a 4 week cycle)
My way is to use one of those reps and use only that number of reps and progress up to a weight where I can no longer man handle the weight with excellent form and decent speed. Example Front Squat, I may do as follows (one of my recent workouts) 95 x 5, 115 x 5, 135 x 5, 155 x 5, 165 x 5, 175 x 5, 185 x 5, 195 x 5, 200 x 5, 205 x 5, 155 x 10 (Last set was a 20% reduced finisher). All reps done with maximum force and speed, minimal eccentric. In the case of squats, I also do jump squats with only my body for 3 reps between sets. I find this keeps my nervous system primed up. In this case I knew I reached my top weight for the day when the lifts slows down on the last 2 reps.

11. Too many people train like clowns. I see alot of guys weighing in at 150 lbs trying to build muscle and doing all isolation exercises.

12. Feeling burnt out or not into it? Try pure speed-explsoive (Westside dynamic style) drills. Use 50-60% 1RM and do 8-12 sets of 3 reps at UTMOST speed you can muster. In the case of back squats, I literally leap off the ground with the weight on my shoulder. Not vey far mind you but still a leap. I find these dynamic and explosive workouts re-prime the nervous system.

13. Wendler is quite right when he says you need to do back off work (the fourth week in his cycle is sets of 5 at much lower percentages.

14. Push ups are an excellent finisher to upper body workouts

15. Olympic lifts rock but make sure you get someone competent to teach you properly and do them on a proper platform. If you ever have to bail from a snatch, you can not be hesitating to drop the weight and get away from it. In the middle of a gym floor surrounded by people lifting is not safe.

16. Equal pulling with pushing exercises (or do slightly more pulling than pushing for upper body) Shoulders will thank you for it.

Thats my 16 cents.


----------



## ArmyRick

I could not help it but I must say some more, please bear with

17. Do not mix the reps ranges (I saw someone reccomend pyriamiding 12 reps down to 2-3, no, no BIG NO! Its ineffective and its dangerous with bigger exercises)

18. I hate hearing people say "come on 2 more, its all you..." and then watching them assist the guy with lift. Lift the weight or rack it and call it a day. these are the same people I see lifting 205 in the bench press year after year. Your a clown. End story.

19. You can not lift at maximum capacity all the time, it will kick the crap out of your nervous system and you will regress.

20. If you want to lift higher reps, Chad Waterbury Big in a hurray method is awesome (for high reps). Say your doing Dumbbell Rowing with a weight you can initially handle for 12-14 explosive reps. You would pick a reasonable total number of reps (say 40) and do as few sets as  possible to meet that total number of reps (All reps explosive, emphasis). You might start off with 14 reps, next set down to 12 reps, third set, fatigue taking effect, 10 reps and last set 9 reps (You exceed total but it took that that extra set to meet minimal 40 reps). Read more on it, its good, again for HIGHER rep training

21. Don't moan, scream, hollar, snarl and grunt like animal in the weight room. Drop the dramatics. I love watching the clowns that hop on the machine leg press, put on 250 pounds and bang out quarter reps yelling like their lifting the weight of their lives. Shut up, focus and lift. Don't do machine lifts for the love of god.

22. Don't get carried away using stability balls, and other core/joint correcting platforms. Again too much of that, I lable you a clown.

23. LIFT EXPLOSIVELY! 

Some more, I am going to sum up and stop there. For now.


----------



## Ascendant

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> 19. You can not lift at maximum capacity all the time, it will kick the crap out of your nervous system and you will regress.



What about the Bulgarians and those lifting under John Broz?


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