# Diabetics in the CF



## tjohns

Hello all,
I live in Australia and I am very involved in the Australian Army Cadets.  As I am a diabetic I can unfortunatly join the Australian Army.  I would love to get involved in the military lifestyle.
So I will ask the question, are diabetics allowed on the Candian Army?

Regards


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## Armymedic

Nope.


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## Michael Dorosh

Yes, I believe you could probably join the Cadet Instructor Cadre.


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## primer

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] Yes, I believe you could probably join the Cadet Instructor Cadre. [/qb]


that is true CIC can but at a certain stage only

Cheers::


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## dano

Since we‘re on this topic. 

What would be the border line to not allow individuals in the CF? (health wise)


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## combat_medic

CFAO 34-30 -- MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR THE CANADIAN FORCES 


Medical Standards (CFP 154)  

There‘s lots of detail, but it tells you about each individual trade‘s requirements, and explains each category.


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## Redeye

From reading combat_medic‘s link, it would seem that diabetics are not automatically disqualified from serving - but rather their medical category would depend on MOC and the sate of their condition.  Seems to make sense that at least some somewhat sedentary trades with regular hours and access to regular, predictable meals would be alright for diabetics, such that they can manage their condition.

At the same time, I can‘t see a diabetic getting through an infantry course, because of the hours, irregular meals, and irregular/unpredictable levels of physical activity.  Anything, I suppose, is possible, but I would think most combat arms trades would be closed to diabetics.


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## Armymedic

What would be the border line to not allow individuals in the CF? (health wise)

They have any chronic conditions or not in good health for any reason....

But I don‘t make the rules. 

It largely trade dependant. It is also truly depends on how generous the Doctor feels when they go over your application at the boards. Some conditions are definately a no-go (diabetes, Epilepsy, MS, to name a few).


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## ab136

I have read threads of people who have been denied enrollment in the CF for medical reasons; asthma, high bp,.....
From what I gather (don't hold me to this ) and I'm sure there are many reason but one being accessibility of meds while on deployment. What about diabetics? The reason I ask is that my mother-in-law (  ;Dthe essence of every mother-in-law joke ever made ;D) runs a diabetic clinic and we were discussing this today. She has a young girl at the clinic who wants to join but has diabetes. How is this disease viewed in the CF


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## medic2ic

This question would only be able to be answered after review of the applicants medical file during her recruiting process by the RMO (Recruit Medical Officer). There are certain medical requirements for the military, each case is determined with severity of the condition and the ability to regulate the condition.


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## Armymedic

That was a very politcal answer...technically correct, but still didn't answer the original question.

Diabetes is an absolute no go to join the regular CF. As you are aware there are two types of diabetes:

Type 1 (insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, IDDM)

Type 2 (non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, NIDDM)

Insulin dependant diabetes, if develops during your military career, is one of the few conditions that warrents an immediate medical catagory that will require you to release from the regular force. If you have it prior, do not bother even applying.

As for type two, as it tends to be diet related, it is better controlled. You may get in, as per medic2ic's response, but it is unlikely you will be accepted into the regular force. And if you are, the employment which you may apply for is extrememly limited.


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## ab136

Thanks Armymedic, you've answered my question.


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## Fraser.g

Armymedic

In the early stages type II may be controlled by diet but unfortunately it usually degenerates to the point where the individual becomes dependant on medications that stimulate the islets to secrete insulin like Medformin and Glyburide.

In either case it is a ticket to a permanant medical category or release. I believe it is the later but stranger thinks have happened in the reserve world.

GF


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## Trinity

I am aware of soldiers who have Type II....

After a physical, the MO will decide.. it is very
trade specific...  

if you go into the field... i'd say your chances are slim.

So, unless you are a Bandsmen, good luck.  
(who see the field rarely, or who don't need to go into the field.. I swear.. not a slight at bandsmen)

BUT.. i could be wrong.. but this is my experience with situations I have seen.


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## ab136

Thanks all!  I'll pass this info along; actually I will give her the site address and let her read for herself. Another member in the making.


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## unarmedMelissa

That really sucks. I have just applied to the army regular force. And I just had blood work done and it shows low blood sugar which could mean diabetes. Lets hope not! 
Thanks for the info.
Mel-H


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## Springroll

I have a friend who applied for the CF a couple years back and was denied because she is an insulin dependant diabetic.


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## Armymedic

Springroll said:
			
		

> I have a friend who applied for the CF a couple years back and was denied because she is an insulin dependant diabetic.



And rightly so.



			
				unarmedMelissa said:
			
		

> And I just had blood work done and it shows low blood sugar which could mean diabetes. Lets hope not!



Then they should redo the test. If you levels are low again, and you have a history of insulin dependant diabetes in your family, then you may be at risk of developing it yourself....

Not fun, and not something you want to be in the CF with.


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## geo

better to find out now.... than later (IMHO)


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## Springroll

Armymedic said:
			
		

> And rightly so.



I totally agree.


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## unarmedMelissa

Thanks I dont have history in my family of diabetes but I could be the lucky one. Ya I have some more blood work to do so we will see. I have been testing my blood at home and looks good so it could have been an error lets hope. I have wanted to be in the army for so long. So cross your fingers for me.
Thanks for all your help guys
Mel-H


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## unarmedMelissa

And i totally agree you shouldn't be in the Canadian Forces with diabetes! It can be dangerous. I know.
It would be just disappointing to find out i had it. that's all i meant by "that sucks".
Mel-H


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## unarmedMelissa

Just an update
Well my low blood sugar is because i am working out so much and  i am not eating enough protein! The doctor said to keep in mind that low blood sugar could lead to diabetes but right now thats not the case! So what do you guys think about whey products?
thanks mel


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## Donut

Under the Training discussion our resident SME, Paracowboy, has started several threads about fitness and nutrition, etc, including supplements and general diet advice

Not entirely undisputed as advice goes, but it seems pretty good to me.

DF


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## unarmedMelissa

Yeah I just found it! thanks allot!


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## Armymedic

How about just eating more real food...more meats, more veggies. They will help you much more.


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## rogsco

Armymedic said:
			
		

> How about just eating more real food...more meats, more veggies. They will help you much more.



Oh AM, you are so old-school with the eat a sensible well-balance diet advice.  :rofl:


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## Donut

Next thing you know he'll be telling us to get lots of exercise and see a dentist once in a while   :


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## Pte.Butt

Though, I do not have either at the tender age of 16, I still have the risk of getting it when I am older. I am without a doubt the most in shape in my house, I eat propperly and exercise 3-4 times a week. Could this possibly ruin my chances of joining? (Waiting for my medical to come back from Ottawa)


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## George Wallace

Only after you have your medical results will you know the answers to that.

Could the problem not be that it is hereditary, but due more to poor health style of family members, as you alluded to in you post.  I would not count a poor health style as being hereditary.


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## niceasdrhuxtable

I've never heard of anyone being precluded from service for their family medical history but again, I'm just speculating. They'll tell you all you need to know during your application medical.


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## Pte.Butt

Ina ll fairness, my dad WAS very obese, but since a massive heart attack and the following triple bi-pass surgery he has lost weight drastically, and mom has lost weight also. I guess as long as I keep myself in shape and avoid the bad stuff I should be alright


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## formerarmybrat23

Ya I woudnt worry about it at all. There is diabetes on both sides of my family, along with cancer, and smoking related issues (asthma, emphazema, etc).

Family history can be a factor in illness, but that doesnt mean your health and death are already in stone.


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## Pte.Butt

Alright, I guess this answers my question, thanks everyone!


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## redknight91

I spoke with a CF recruiter the other day and he told me that he was not sure what or if a diabetic would be able to join but said to go ahead with the application process anyway. He also mentioned the best thing to do would be to get a letter from a specialist (endocrinologist) stating that you would have ether no limitations to your duties or if there were limitations what they might be. Myself, I have received 2 letter from two of the top endocrinologists in the country and am hoping that I will be able to join the army in some capacity other than cook, mail clerk, or CIC


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## FastEddy

redknight91 said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, what do you do on Civy Street.
> 
> By the way, just try and run a Army without Cook's.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Edited to add, If you were a Cook, there'd be no problem with your Diet needs, that's presuming its a factor.


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## PMedMoe

It doesn't matter what trade you're joining as anyway, minimum standards are just that, the minimum acceptable.


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## lindhout

SFB said:
			
		

> And rightly so.
> 
> Then they should redo the test. If you levels are low again, and you have a history of insulin dependant diabetes in your family, then you may be at risk of developing it yourself....
> 
> Not fun, and not something you want to be in the CF with.



why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes. In 1989 a type 1 diabetic was cleared for flight as a search and rescue pilot in CF. Yes he was already a member we diagnosed in 2007, but the fact he was allowed and no issues came forth shows again your ignorance. There is no reason type 1 diabetes should be a blanket ban, there is many diabetics who would have no problems at all performing their duties. Continous glucose monitoring eliminates risk of sudden incapacitation, and IF somebody is stuck without medication, the only risks are LONG TERM. Every case of diabetes is different and should be handled as such, people like you are pathetic


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## acooper

lindhout - I think you're over-reacting. I have Type II diabetes, and know several Type I diabetics. While every case of diabetes is individual, being a diabetic in the military would be VERY hard to manage. 

I think your knowledge of diabetes is lacking, personally. While yes, for a Type II, being without medication poses mostly long-term risks, COMA is one of those risks. And for a Type I diabetic, being without insulin means going into diabetic ketoacidosis, which can result in coma or death.

I've never been in the armed forces, and never will be. But I can understand why it would be very difficult to be in the armed forces and diabetic. Jobs that will be desk-only-forever are few and far between, and those are the only sort of jobs with anything vaguely resembling a guarantee that you will have access to your meds. I don't think hate was being expressed previously - just common sense.

It's great that there's a Type I who is cleared as a search and rescue pilot - but I think it's unfair to assume that all Type I CF members could manage such a position. It's also very unfair to let a not-even-yet-diagnosed-possibly-diabetic believe that all jobs in the forces are possible....


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## b7197

Has anybody seen released one with Type II diabetes in your unit?


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## lindhout

acooper said:
			
		

> It's also very unfair to let a not-even-yet-diagnosed-possibly-diabetic believe that all jobs in the forces are possible....



what's unfair is to tell somebody they can't do something, because they have diabetes. In 2005 When I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, thank you for insulting my knowledge by the way, I couldn't even qualify as a police officer. Now thanks to people fighting for their rights, that has changed. I know many diabetics who I dont like to see behind the wheel of a car.. let alone in a combat role in the armed forces. However I also know many who if not for them telling you, you would never know about their condition. I have long since given up on my dream of being in the forces, however I still dont like to see narrow minded thinkers sharing their biast opinions with the world. I understand why the CF says what they do about diabetics, but I don't think they are right in their judgment. Keep a surplus of insulin (mine stores for 2 years), bring backups, have a CGM System, and you are fine. Sure they couldn't be ready to deploy in a matter of minutes... but there is so many jobs in the CF a diabetic should be able to do.


Yes, I was overreacting and for that I apologize, but I stand by my opinions.


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## PMedMoe

lindhout said:
			
		

> I understand why the CF says what they do about diabetics, but I don't think they are right in their judgment.



They have their reasons, I'm sure. 



			
				lindhout said:
			
		

> Sure they couldn't be ready to deploy in a matter of minutes... but there is so many jobs in the CF a diabetic should be able to do.



In the CF, personnel have to be able to do *all* jobs, not just some.  Ever heard of universality of service?


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## acooper

lindhout - I'm glad your diabetes is apparently so easily manageable. But for many others, it simply isn't.  I'm not sure if you are male, or female - but I also know for many women, hormonal issues can make diabetes hard to manage. For many (male, or female), stress makes it hard to manage. It seems to me that you haven't dealt recently with debilitating lows, or DKA. But imagine if someone on the front lines, who has other soldiers depending on them, has a sudden low? Or if they use the last bit of their insulin, and are in DKA days before they can be relieved, or more insulin brought to them?

You're right, in general, a diabetic should be able to do just about anything. But reality is, there are just certain situations that aren't safe for the diabetic, or for others who depend on them. These situations in the armed forces, plus universality of service (thanks for reminding me of the term, Pmed Moe) are why most diabetics won't be allowed to be in the CF.

I'm glad for the previous poster, however, that there was a non-diabetic explanation for her low sugar, and hope her journey to the CF goes as well as possible.


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## lindhout

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> They have their reasons, I'm sure.
> 
> In the CF, personnel have to be able to do *all* jobs, not just some.  Ever heard of universality of service?



Are you ware from the CF standpoint, type 1 diabetics typicaly are put in a G4 category. Now, a cook, postal, chaplain, band ect. are a G3 Category. So am I correct in understanding, you believe a type 1 diabetic is unfit to be a cook in the CF?

To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.

Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.


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## dapaterson

lindhout said:
			
		

> Are you ware from the CF standpoint, type 1 diabetics typicaly are put in a G4 category. Now, a cook, postal, chaplain, band ect. are a G3 Category. So am I correct in understanding, you believe a type 1 diabetic is unfit to be a cook in the CF?
> 
> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.
> 
> Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.



Do you know the occupational specification for a cook in the CF?  What they are expected to do, and under what conditions?  What the general specifications are that all NCMs in the CF must meet, regardless of trade or environmental affiliation?

Perhaps if you'd bother to look and learn you'd discover why there are such restrictions in place.


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## Armymedic

lindhout said:
			
		

> why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes.



I say Pardon?

And who are you?

Let me advise you to look at my profile. And before you ignorantly go off at me again, know that there is a copy of the D MED POL pearl guides sitting next to me open to the DM page, and the CFP 154 open on a different tab on my computer.

I will state again, categorically:
People applying to get into the CF can not get in if they have been diagnosed with DM type 1 otherwise known as insulin dependant diabetes.


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## PMedMoe

lindhout said:
			
		

> Are you ware from the CF standpoint, type 1 diabetics typicaly are put in a G4 category. Now, a cook, postal, chaplain, band ect. are a G3 Category. So am I correct in understanding, you believe a type 1 diabetic is unfit to be a cook in the CF?



The CF does. It doesn't matter what _*I*_ believe, does it?  I believe people should use proper spelling and spell check.



			
				lindhout said:
			
		

> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.



Think what you like, but I don't make the rules.

So either try to change it (good luck with that) or give it up.  All your "debating" on here won't change a thing.


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## Cansky

lindhout said:
			
		

> Are you ware from the CF standpoint, type 1 diabetics typically are put in a G4 category. Now, a cook, postal, chaplain, band etc. are a G3 Category. So am I correct in understanding, you believe a type 1 diabetic is unfit to be a cook in the CF?
> 
> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.
> 
> Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.



And most G4 permanent categories are often medically released (although it might not be immediate. some get accommodations for up to 3 years).  There are very few jobs for a Type 1 DM in the CF.  In my 23 years of medicine in the CF most are released due to the nature of the universality of service regardless of the trade.  I worked for a Medical Officer who was Diagnosis ed early in her career.  She wasn't allowed to deploy anywhere outside of Canada and as soon as her contract was up she was release.  This was at a time when we were at 50% strength for Medical Officers.Irregular access to meds and foods while deployed overseas is the biggest reason.  Now type 2 DM are looked at differently even then they can be greatly restricted depending on the severity of the DM. 

The rules are there both to protected the individual and the CF.  That's just life.

Lindhout 

We are not saying your unfit but the CF is also not going to put you in a  position that would be unsafe.  This is not only for DM but alot of other medical condition too (IE seizure disorders).  At the end of the day when you have had no food or time to eat I don't want to be the medical person having to help when that DM type 1 or 2 shouldn't have been there in the first place especially when the *^%&^% hits the fan and I have multiple other casualties to attend to.  This goes for the many other  conditions to.


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## Scott

lindhout said:
			
		

> Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.



No one is saying _you_ are unfit, please pay attention to that.

I do notice one glaring issue with what this statement says - service rig - are you in the western oil patch? Because my friend, I can tell you from years of experience that some of those guys would take someone with no arms and legs if they could prove able to lean on the brake handle. And I have also _personally_ witnessed diabetic related emergencies on those rigs...and it ain't effing pretty when you're back the Kotcho or Chinchaga.

If you read carefully you'll see that no one is trying to give anyone else a rough ride. They are simply stating facts as they stand now. Chill out.


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## Neill McKay

lindhout said:
			
		

> Are you ware from the CF standpoint, type 1 diabetics typicaly are put in a G4 category. Now, a cook, postal, chaplain, band ect. are a G3 Category. So am I correct in understanding, you believe a type 1 diabetic is unfit to be a cook in the CF?
> 
> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.



In the regular force, even support trades such as the ones you mention can be expected to deploy to places where it's impossible to accommodate certain medical concerns.  A cook, for example, might spend much of his time in a cafeteria-type environment, but is likely also to spend some time in a ship (with no doctor or extensive health care facility for a thousand miles in any direction) or in the field (subject to all of the rigours of life in the field, with the added hazard of being shot at and having to defend your unit right along with the infanteers etc.).

The concept of "universality of service" means that regular force members must be able to deploy to hazardous locations and do very demanding things any time it's required of them.

Even in "normal" work situations in Canada a CF member can be subject to long periods without rest or food, and everyone must be able to depend on everyone else to do his or her bit.  It's not for spite that there are medical restrictions on who may serve.  It's because there is a very real danger associated with someone being suddenly incapacitated.


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## George Wallace

lindhout said:
			
		

> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.



I wanted to be a Pilot.  I am V3.  Is that discrimination against me?  Hell, yes!  And for good reason.  I can accept the fact that I am no medically fit to be a CF Pilot.  Is it discrimination to not allow a person confined to a wheelchair into the CF as an Infantryman?  Yes it is.  For good reason.  The Charter of Human Rights recognizes these facts.  









			
				lindhout said:
			
		

> Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.



At the end of your 18 hour shifts, you get to go home.  Not so on a six to ten month Tour to some hellhole on the other side of the world.


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## GAP

Scott said:
			
		

> No one is saying _you_ are unfit, please pay attention to that.
> 
> I do notice one glaring issue with what this statement says - service rig - are you in the western oil patch? Because my friend, I can tell you from years of experience that some of those guys would take someone with no arms and legs if they could prove able to lean on the brake handle. And I have also _personally[i/] witnessed diabetic related emergencies on those rigs...and it ain't effing pretty when you're back the Kotcho or Chinchaga.
> 
> If you read carefully you'll see that no one is trying to give anyone else a rough ride. They are simply stating facts as they stand now. Chill out.
> _


_

Lindhout ....pay attention to someone who is an SME of rigs....he's been there, done that.

and, to date, nobody is questioning your fitness now, but the CF has to deal with the future probabilities and how to handle them....

my  :2c:_


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## Northalbertan

Scott said:
			
		

> I do notice one glaring issue with what this statement says - service rig - are you in the western oil patch? Because my friend, I can tell you from years of experience that some of those guys would take someone with no arms and legs if they could prove able to lean on the brake handle. And I have also _personally[i/] witnessed diabetic related emergencies on those rigs...and it ain't effing pretty when you're back the Kotcho or Chinchaga.
> _


_

As an aside to the main topic, things have changed a wee bit out in "the patch" at least rig wise.  They are a little more discriminating about who they hire nowadays.  I have to agree on the diabetic emergency in the bush though, I have also seen it pop up.  You can't do anything about it if they don't tell you though.  Which is why I agree with pre-screening and also why the CF does the medical and has the standards they do.  They can't always look at the rosy picture.  What happens if you are in a third world &%$$ hole and don't have access to your meds?  The military is a TEAM, and if you can't play with the rest of your team because you're in the middle of a diabetic emergency you are letting them down and possibly putting them in danger because you can't be there beside them.  

My  :2c:.  For what it's worth.

_


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## Scott

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> As an aside to the main topic, things have changed a *wee* bit out in "the patch" at least rig wise.  They are a little more discriminating about who they hire nowadays.  I have to agree on the diabetic emergency in the bush though, I have also seen it pop up.



There's the very crux of my argument towards screening proven:

I worked in Asia/the Mid East in 2008 and *no way* would my employer have sent someone with a legitimate, ongoing medical issue over there. Anaphylactics were included as well...and I never saw one damned bee or a peanut in my three months across (!) Point is, we couldn't plan for everything so we choose to limit who we send. Same goes for the CF but on a much larger scale.

Back to "the patch" Yeah, if you thunder in on the lease in Two Lakes you have a better shot than if you do so on a ship or in a FOB or in a desert exploration camp.

Simple.


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## medicineman

lindhout said:
			
		

> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.



Hate to tell you this, but the Supreme Court of Canada upheld the right of the Canadian Forces to discriminate based on medical/physical conditions or limitations.  We have standards there for a reason - in this case, you can't stop to eat in a long advance to contact and subsequent shoot out because just you're hypoglycemic...to put it another way, you wouldn't be doing anyone any favours if you had a seizure because your BG was in you shoes, in fact you'd be putting your fireteam partner, your TCCC provider, section 2ic and most important of all, ME at risk to look after you with all the bullets flying about.  I've said it many times before but will do it again - "It's not personal, it's just business" so please do everyone a favour and get off the soap box - it'll just slip out from underneath you like it has so many others I've dealt with over the years with this and many other problems.  BTW, physical fitness does not equate medical fitness - so sending the doc out to the rig will just give them a sight seeing tour. 

Maybe in a few years there will be a magic bullet that will fix everything up for you - if that happens, I'm sure we'll be able to welcome you with open arms, but until then, that's the way it is.

MM


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## Armymedic

lindhout said:
			
		

> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.
> 
> Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit.



Wanna play that game, eh?

IDDM is PCat at G403 for a damn good reason. That being your "rights" are negated by your DKA evoked death.


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## 1feral1

lindhout said:
			
		

> why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes. In 1989 a type 1 diabetic was cleared for flight as a search and rescue pilot in CF. Yes he was already a member we diagnosed in 2007, but the fact he was allowed and no issues came forth shows again your ignorance. There is no reason type 1 diabetes should be a blanket ban, there is many diabetics who would have no problems at all performing their duties. Continous glucose monitoring  eliminates risk of sudden incapacitation, and IF somebody is stuck without medication, the only risks are LONG TERM. Every case of diabetes is different and should be handled as such, people like you are pathetic



Pi$$ poor attitude pal, but your enthusiasm is noted, however don't throw the discrimination card - it won't apply here. I agree with you in certain jobs other than Defence and some 000 (LEO) professions, where risks would be limited perhaps, and conditions are more suitable for a diabetic, so don't go singling yourself out, we are not out to get you.

Aside from being a cook or whatever similar trade you have used as an example, we are all soldiers first, and have common basic military skills (weapons handling, fieldcraft, etc), not just peeling potatoes and preparing meals. 

Going back to my tour in Iraq for example, our cooks not only had to perform their trade duties, but also had to do strong point duty, sentry duty, and other taskings in outragously extreme conditions, and often were outside the wire in the shooter role on our ASLAVs, in the thick of it, like us all. Infact both our cooks were from 3 RAR (Para) and we fullly qualified paratroopers with previous tours. Serious 'hard corps' dudes.

There is such a thing called Murphy's Law, and it happens all too frequently in the real world. There is no room for anyone with potential dangerous medical issues which they easily might become a liability (you would be one of these), and make others a liabliity to look after them should things go pear shaped (and they do/did). try doing some of your continious gluecose monitering in the back of a bouncing ASLAV @ 60kph in the dust and heat when your half out of a hatch, wind blowing, you got protective gear on, and you must watch your arcs with your weapon for hours on end. Get my drift? Your lack of concentration can cost lives, even your own.

Best of luck in your future endeavours.  There is no need to get narky at anyone here who is just spelling out the facts for you. Sometimes reality sucks.

My 2 bob.


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## Blackadder1916

lindhout said:
			
		

> why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes. In 1989 a type 1 diabetic was cleared for flight as a search and rescue pilot in CF. Yes he was already a member we diagnosed in 2007, but the fact he was allowed and no issues came forth shows again your ignorance. There is no reason type 1 diabetes should be a blanket ban, there is many diabetics who would have no problems at all performing their duties. Continous glucose monitoring eliminates risk of sudden incapacitation, and IF somebody is stuck without medication, the only risks are LONG TERM. Every case of diabetes is different and should be handled as such, people like you are pathetic



You do realize that you started your contribution to this forum by spouting off in response to an almost *four year old post*, don't you?  While that is not necessarily looked down upon here, the tone of your original post (in my view, at least) could be considered abusive or trolling; my suggestion is that you dial it back a notch.

While you may have personal experience with diabetes, it is patently obvious you have little to no knowledge of the CF or how its medical category system is applied to those with diabetes (or any disease).  By ranting off in all directions, especially when insulting members who are knowledgeable (because it is part of their job) you will accomplish little on these means other than gain a less than admirable reputation.  This forum, while not always the epitome of decorum, does place a greater emphasis on reasoned debate argument than is often found elsewhere on the net.  Perhaps someone should direct you to the "rainbow" post.  

Your suggestion that, since a CF pilot was retained on flying status following diagnosis as a type 1 diabetic, applicants with diabetes can be enrolled with no problem demonstrates your lack of understanding of what military members do and how medical categories are applied.  Contrary to your statement that there were no issues with this unusual retention of a diabetic pilot, there were several.  Again, you take semi-knowledge of one fact and extrapolate it far beyond your arcs.  

The pilot in question enrolled in the CF in 1982 and had no medical issues at that time.  He completed  flying training (rotary) in  1982.  In April 1987 he presented with symptoms and was subsequently diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.  He was initially treated with insulin and was entered in a diabetic study group at UWO.  From the time that he presented with symptoms he was grounded.  Two years after diagnosis (1989) he was returned to “restricted” flying status, “to fly with or as co-pilot”, and had specific geographic restrictions to fixed bases where physician services were available.  He was to have specialist and aeromedical follow-up every 3 months.  Following his return to flying he was assigned to a SAR squadron flying Labradors.  In 1991, he was again grounded for 6 months but returned to flying duties (with the same restrictions as before) in 1992.    His reported performance as a pilot was noted as “outstanding” and was awarded the Medal of Bravery in 1991 for a rescue mission in adverse conditions.
You can download the complete document from which I gathered this information as a PDF here

While the details above were extracted from an article in a 1995 journal, the following excerpt from a 2008 article mentions a more current sitrep of the pilot in question.  (I’ve redacted his name for this forum)
http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/2008/06/26/5807/flying-on-insulin/


> The very first pilot in the world with type 1 to get his medical certification and, therefore, his pilot’s license reinstated was a Canadian military pilot, Capt. ***** *******.  ***** was diagnosed with diabetes in 1987. After two years of monitoring and individual assessments of his ability to control his diabetes, a very forward thinking Dr. Gary Gray, with the help of *****’s endocrinologist, Dr. John Dupre, authorized ***** to return to flying duties. In August of 1989, ***** moved to Summerside PEI and returned to active flying status at 413 Sqn. ***** is presently working as a Major in Esquimalt, BC, where he is still licensed to fly. He will be retiring from the Canadian Forces in July of 2010.



And it has been far from a given that this pilot was able to continue his military career as is noted in this excerpt from a letter he sent to then Minister of Health Allan Rock is support of islet research.

http://islet.org/33.htm#GrenkowToRock


> . . . And even a well controlled diabetic like myself finds the sword of Damocles hanging over one's head when employment issues like "Universality of Service" come into play. Even though I am cleared to fly as a Search and Rescue pilot in the CF actions are being taken through a Career Review Board to release me because I can not be supposedly deployed for more than 30 days. This is rated on the shelf life of opened unrefridgerated insulin.



Not knowing this officer personally I can only surmise (based on the effort and support that must have come from both his chain of command as well as aeromedical staff) that he is truly an outstanding individual, in terms of professional ability as well as personality.  In most cases, plugs are not kept if they fall below minimum medical standard.  In the words of a friend of mine who was in the career shop “if someone pi$$es me off, the only effect would be similar to pi$$ing into the wind – it’s their trouser legs that get wet”.



			
				lindhout said:
			
		

> *I understand why the CF says what they do about diabetics, but I don't think they are right in their judgment*. Keep a surplus of insulin *(mine stores for 2 years)*, . . . . Sure they couldn't be ready to deploy in a matter of minutes... .



If you understand, then be prepared to offer a knowledgeable analysis of which occupations could accept enrollees with Type 1 diabetes.

Does your opened insulin store for two years with refrigeration?  Who manufactures it?

More than once during my career I have been subject to movement on very, very short notice, in fact I once received my notice of a posting (Gagetown to Edmonton) and had to be on the road in three hours. (talk about clearing unit and base quickly - only thing I turned in was my weapon EIS)



			
				lindhout said:
			
		

> To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.



Again, your lack of knowledge is showing.  Former members of the CF have already tried to claim that they were discriminated against due to them being released from the CF after being diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes.  CHRTs have upheld the CF's position.  You may want to review the following tribunal decisions.  They may enlighten you as to the process that occurs before a serving member is released after failing to meet medical standards.  I've included a passage from "Gaetz" that discusses the some numbers of members who have been released because of insulin dependant diabetes.

Gaetz v. Canadian Armed Forces (a 1988 decision)
http://chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=105&lg=_e&isruling=0


> “On the same page Captain Martin also indicated that the Career Medical Review Board had cases which came before it dealing with members suffering from diabetes and Captain Martin’s testimony was to the effect that there were 34 such cases since 1985, and he indicated that of those 35 cases, 14 persons were released and that these were insulin- dependent diabetics requiring daily injections. Five of the remaining persons were retained to compulsary retirement age, which was going to occur 18 to 24 months down the road and such persons were retained for annuity purposes. Another 4 were retained with restrictions and in those cases the medical prognosis was that if proper dieting took place and proper regimented exercise was accomplished, then good control could be maintained by oral medication. Captain Martin also stressed that he was not certain as to whether or not any of the persons retained were insulin- dependent diabetics in the sense that they required insulin injections. In cross- examination by Mr. Duval as to the type of career restrictions imposed upon the four Members who are retained by the Forces after having their medical catagory downgraded by the Career Medical Review Board, commencing at line 5 on page 230. Answer: "They would be career restrictions, which means that at whatever rank level they were at at that time is where they will stay. They will not progress beyond that rank level. For illustration, we use a corporal."



Brown v. Canadian Armed Forces (a 1995 decision)
http://www.chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=222&lg=_e&isruling=0


At this point someone is probably thinking "sum up" - so . . .

You could continue ranting all you want that diabetics should be enrolled into the military (though preferably on another forum) but it would not change the reality that there are valid reasons for precluding individuals with that medical condition from joining.  Yes, there have been those who have continued to serve after being diagnosed, but in reality not that many and only when an analysis of that individual’s medical condition ‘and’ his potential for providing further ‘above average’ service indicates it is to the CF’s benefit to retain him.  It is also probable that retention and accomodation of such individuals has been less likely in the past few years for the simple reason that we’ve been at war and need those who can deploy to a combat area.


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## MARS

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> At this point someone is probably thinking "sum up" - so . . .



Not at all.  An excellent post.


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## Fishbone Jones

MARS said:
			
		

> Not at all.  An excellent post.



And enough to put a nice large period on what everyone has been saying.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## dmh100

Is having type 1 diabetes a barrier to joining the reserves? I am aware you can't join the regular forces if you have diabetes, but from what I have heard it isn't a problem with the reserves. Can anyone confirm this?


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## MikeL

I'm pretty sure the Regs and Reserves have the exact same medical requirements.  Search around the forums, I'm sure theres info on diabetes and wanting to join the CF.  You can also call your local CFRC and ask them about it.


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## Michael OLeary

site:army.ca diabetes


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## ModlrMike

COMMON ENROLLMENT STANDARD

I hope I don't have to clarify!


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## kev.

I have read several threads about diabetes so please forgive me for adding one more.
I have recently been tested and my A1C level is 6.1. I am about .3 away from being a diabetic. My next test is scheduled for the end of Jan.
I am unsure of how the CF views members with Diabetes. Are they released right away?
If so how long would the process normally take?

Looking forward to your learned responses


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## medicineman

kev. said:
			
		

> I have read several threads about diabetes so please forgive me for adding one more.
> I have recently been tested and my A1C level is 6.1. I am about .3 away from being a diabetic. My next test is scheduled for the end of Jan.
> I am unsure of how the CF views members with Diabetes. Are they released right away?
> If so how long would the process normally take?
> 
> Looking forward to your learned responses



Depends on who you are, what you do, how long you have in, and how you're being treated and are responding to treatment.  Type 1 and 2 dibetics are placed on categories with Geographic and some Occupational restrictions.  Usually Type 1's are edged out and Type 2's not needing inuslin to manage are kept aboard.  If you're given a PCat that makes you unfit life in the CF, the time it takes for that to go through the process can take upwards of a year.  I'm willing to bet as a Type 2, you'd be on a stricter category at first until you've shown you're under control and then likely assigned a PCat  that has some Geo restrictions.  If you're a flyer (I see you're with 403 Sqn), I'm not up to speed on the Flight Surg Guidelines regarding DM2 and Air Factors, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

Hope that helps a bit.

MM

Edited for a spelling oopy.


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## CombatDoc

To add, every patient is assessed on a case-by-case basis. Generally, insulin-dependence is the go/no go gauge. If you can maintain good control of your sugars with diet, exercise and drugs if needed, you will likely be retained. Once the insulin needle touches skin, generally you will be released. 

However, since you are not yet at the threshold for diabetes, why not take control of your diet, exercise and weight and try to get back to normal glycemic control and avoid both the potential medical complications as well as the potential career implications?  All is not lost!


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## kev.

I am making changes to my diet and exercise but I also am keenly aware that diabetes is strong on both sides of the family.


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## Canada12345

Good Evening,

Hope, you are all doing well. Forgive me, if this has been asked a thousand times before but i am hoping that anyone with direct experience can share some knowledge. I have worked a number of jobs in the transportation sector in the past 3 years. I am 27 years old and a type 2 (non insulin) dependent pre diabetic. I have a BMI that was on the healthy side when i was diagnosed but it was borderline. However, i do exercise and have managed to improve that & my condition considerably. From my limited knowledge i have come to understand that serving in the normal force is a strict no-no for type 2  pre-diabetics. My question is that would they take me into reserves with type 2 pre-diabetes? Is it even worth putting in an application? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you, in advance.

Regards,
Sunny


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## ModlrMike

There is no difference in the medical requirements between the Regular Force and the Reserve Force; everyone must meet the same Common Enrollment Standard. The worst that can happen is that you apply and are unfit enrollment. 

No one here will give you a definitive answer on your specific situation.


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## WJERIC

Hi,

I just got medical exam and interview for NCM position.  I am a Type II diabetes (non-insulin dependent) with good blood sugar control.  I told medical officer all the truth and he cannot say 'yes' or 'no' whether CF will accept person with type II diabetes. I just have to wait for the medical decision.  My question is whether CF accept Type II diabetes.   

Does anyone has diabetes and joined CF?


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## MachineGunner762

Been following this post for a long time. 

I was an infantry member with Type 1 diabetes. I was a late onset type 1. Joint the CF at 16 I wasn’t showing serious signs yet, but I did have many on my recruit course. I would get severe cramps in my legs, lost a truck load of weight (not just from the PT but I went from 175 to 150 in 2 weeks). Figured the legs were electrolytes so I’d drink juice or eat a banana at lunch. Made it worse. Cardio was junk, not because I didn’t try, I’d do PT in the evenings too but hard to have good cardio when your heart is pumping syrup. Didn’t figure it out until years later. 

I spent 8 years in. Some of the best years of my life. But I was never 100% (knowing now). There was always something. Over the years as I hit my early 20s it got worse until I was on Mod 6 for my leaf. Was in wicked shape, had taught on several courses in between. Doing great. But I was living with my canteen in one hand and at the urinal. In one end and out the other. Would puke after light PT (my sugars were getting way worse but I didn’t know). Had applied for the Mounties and they called on course, said I failed my medical and to go to the base hospital. That was it. RTU’d and the process was started. 

To this day I wish I could have stayed in and taught or switched to a different trade. But, I understood. I didn’t want to be responsible for my fire team partner not going home because I went down. Not personal. I know there has been some newer cases where people have argued ‘hormone therapy that is essential to life’ is okay and it’s been allowed. So I could make a case... but after the years in, I understand. Without a guaranteed way to ensure that I was stable... not a chance. Not because I can’t, I did. Got the t-shirt. But I understand the importance and the consequences. I always felt bad I didn’t get to deploy (I wanted to...it was RCMP that talked me out of it. Wanted to deploy me after depot) but I’m glad now that I didn’t get through, deploy and got someone killed due to a medical condition I didn’t know I had. 

My 2c. I have always been bitter about it. I’ve been bitter for 10 years because of it. But I’ve carved a life of emergency response, hazmat, worked at a fire department, search and rescue and now remote emergency response in the northern wilderness. I get to work with The Rangers and SAR techs all the time. Even got to deploy in the back of a Herc to a are mote community evacuation last year. My own private ride. I’ve used what I learned to do what I can to help people. But I know that unless they cured me, I could never go back. I couldn’t risk a brother or sister not coming home because of me. I wouldn’t be able to look their family or by team members in the eye ever again. So I do what I can and use what I learned. 

There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t miss my Unit mates. But I have learned that there are other ways to help people. 

Hope that helps my fellow diabetics put things into perspective. 

TR


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## MachineGunner762

Joined. Damn phone and its auto correct.


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