# "Chinese navy trains fighter pilots into aircraft carrier commanders"



## The Bread Guy (11 Dec 2019)

This*** from CHN military media ...


> The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy is training jet fighter pilots to sail and command warships, a move that aims to create more capable commanding officers for aircraft carriers, according to military experts.
> 
> Experienced pilots from carrier-borne aircraft units and advanced fighter jet units started learning warship combat and command at an undisclosed naval academy in late November, the PLA Daily reported on Monday.
> 
> ...


*** - links to archive.org saved version to keep you from clicking to a CHN gov't site


----------



## dimsum (11 Dec 2019)

Are most carrier COs around the world also naval aviators?


----------



## SupersonicMax (11 Dec 2019)

By law, the commanding officer (CO) of a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier must be either a naval aviator or a naval flight officer in the rank of captain. The carrier's executive officer (XO) will also hold identical rank and aeronautical qualifications.


----------



## dimsum (11 Dec 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> By law, the commanding officer (CO) of a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier must be either a naval aviator or a naval flight officer in the rank of captain. The carrier's executive officer (XO) will also hold identical rank and aeronautical qualifications.



Interesting.  Do they're essentially dual-qualed (flying and sailing)?


----------



## SupersonicMax (11 Dec 2019)

They are not formally qualified in sailing.  They go from Carrier Air Group Squadron CO to Nuclear Power School for 6 months to XO of a Carrier to CO of a large ship to commanding a Carrier.  At that level, your focus should be less on sailing and more on providing effects, knowing you have a full crew dedicated to sailing.


----------



## Baz (11 Dec 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> They are not formally qualified in sailing.  They go from Carrier Air Group Squadron CO to Nuclear Power School for 6 months to XO of a Carrier to CO of a large ship to commanding a Carrier.  At that level, your focus should be less on sailing and more on providing effects, knowing you have a full crew dedicated to sailing.



Large ship is normally an auxiliary,  like an oiler.  They are still fully responsible for the handling and safety of the vessel.


----------



## SupersonicMax (11 Dec 2019)

Baz said:
			
		

> Large ship is normally an auxiliary,  like an oiler.  They are still fully responsible for the handling and safety of the vessel.



Sure.  Just like any CO is fully responsible for the handling and safety of it unit.  He doesn’t have to be an expert in its every respect though.  I still think (and I also think the Navy thinks the same way, given their path to Ship/Boat command) that sailing and a mean to an end and the ultimate responsibility of the CO is the end.


----------



## Baz (11 Dec 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sure.  Just like any CO is fully responsible for the handling and safety of it unit.  He doesn’t have to be an expert in its every respect though.  I still think (and I also think the Navy thinks the same way, given their path to Ship/Boat command) that sailing and a mean to an end and the ultimate responsibility of the CO is the end.



They do a ship handling course in addition to nuc school.  The CO of a carrier is more concerned with safely getting the boat to the right place and providing the "airport" services to the Admiral.  The air group does not belong to the CO, it belongs to the CAG.  The CAG works directly for the Admiral to provide effects.  The DESRON Comd has the escorts.

The USS McCain and USS Fitzgerald are both examples of what can happen when the CO of a ship does not fully control the handling of their ship.

Edited to add: the Admiral, who is the one actually responsible for delivering effects (which is not just the air group, all those Tomahawks are pretty useful as well, and they might be operating with an amphibious ESG) does not have to be an aviator.


----------



## Baz (11 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Are most carrier COs around the world also naval aviators?



HMS QE is illustrative that not necessarily so.

The first CO was a surface warfare officer with a bunch of ship commands including two aircraft carriers prior to QE.  He never trained as an aviator.

The last two were both observers (ie RN "ACSO").  Neither had Sqn Comd.  The both then become Principal Warfare Officers (like RCN OROs) and then had various ship commands prior to QE.


----------



## Baz (12 Dec 2019)

Here's a good article by a USN Retired Admiral who has had command at squadron, deep draft, carrier, and task group levels.

What Is It Like To be The Commanding Officer Of An Aircraft Carrier
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/03/07/what-is-it-like-to-be-the-commanding-officer-of-an-aircraft-carrier/#383bb9f41e8c



> The ship’s captain is responsible for the condition and safety of the ship and for providing most of the material, facilities and services required to prepare the aircraft and pilots for those missions.





> During flight operations the captain can normally be found on the bridge directly involved in the mechanics of positioning and preparing the ship for launch and recovery of aircraft, ensuring the safe navigation of the ship and overseeing flight deck operations.





> Early morning underway replenishments alongside a fleet oiler, navigation of straits or other areas that restrict the carrier’s ability to maneuver and entering or leaving ports are all frequently occurring evolutions requiring the captain’s presence on the bridge.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (13 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Are most carrier COs around the world also naval aviators?



Since most carriers around the world (less the USN) are unique assets (or maybe at the most one of a pair) in their respective navies, the command of such a war vessel (often termed the flagship of that particular fleet) would naturally be a coveted rung on the command afloat ladder so it is unlikely that it would be reserved exclusively for aviators.  The USN is a beast of such a different colour that it may be hard for those from more "boutique" navies to comprehend that a naval officer could have a long productive career almost exclusively within his own "fighting" specialty (surface, subs, aviation) and still meet all the same comparable "check the boxes" needed for flag rank.

And then historically, probably the most celebrated "carrier admiral" of all time, William Halsey, didn't become an aviator until 30 years (at age 52) after he graduated from Annapolis.  It was one of the requirements he had to meet before he took command of the carrier Saratoga, though he had commanded several surface vessels previously.

Though it's been near half a century since Canada last had a carrier in the fleet, our practice then was likely the same as most small navies.  Sometimes the single carrier was commanded by a water-bound sailor and other times by a sailor who had previously taken to the sky.  They all would have been qualified to drive the ship (if need be), but likely the decision to give them command of the carrier was they had been judged to be excellent naval officers who knew how to employ their resources, whether those resources were bolted to a deck or launched into the air.   For most, command of the Bonnie was an expected next step as they moved on to flag rank.

The COs of our last carrier, HMCS Bonaventure, were the following, according to http://www.forposterityssake.ca/Navy/HMCS_BONAVENTURE_CVL22.htm . 

Capt. Harold Victor William Groos, RCN - 17 Jan 1957 - 14 Jan 1958  (ret'd as Commodore 1965)

Capt. William Moss Landymore, OBE, RCN - 15 Jan 1958 - 11 Sep 1959  (yes that Landymore,  a brief stint as the first Commander of Maritime Command in 1966 before being "encouraged" to retire as a RAdm)

Capt. J.C. O'Brien, RCN - 12 Sep 1959 - 29 Aug 1961  (Commander Maritime Command 1966-70, ret'd as VAdm 1973)

Capt. Frederick Charsley Frewer, RCN - 30 Aug 1961 - 06 Aug 1963 (ret'd as Capt 1969 - and for a pop culture reference is the father of "Max Headroom" actor)

Capt. Robert Walker Timbrell, DSC, RCN - 07 Aug 1963 - 01 Apr 1965   (Commander Maritime Command 1971-73,   ret'd as RAdm in 1974)

Capt. Henry Allan Porter, RCN - 02 Apr 1965 - 31 July 1966  (joined RCN as Lower Decker, Commissioned and served in surface ships during war, *trained as pilot after war*, had other non-flying staff and command tours, Commander Maritime Command 1970-71. ret'd as VAdm 1974)

Cdr. A.T. Bice, RCN - 01 Aug 1966 - 20 Nov 1966  (trained as pilot in RCAF during WW2, transferred to RN/RCN, mostly aviation related duties, in  Bonnie as Lieutenant-Commander (Flying) 1959, warded Watchkeeping Certificate 1961, back in Bonnie as Commander (Air) 1965, Executive Officer 1966 (for last refit), In command 1966, reverted back to XO when Falls took command.  Ret'd as Cdr in 1974)


> Total Flying Hours: 2815.5 hours. Total Fixed Wing Deck landings: 97. Service Aircraft Flown: Cornell, Crane, Anson, Seafire, Firefly, Sea Fury, Harvard, Avenger, Tracker, Ventura, Oxford, Master, Sea Hornet, Vampire, Tiger Moth, Expeditor



Capt. R.H. Falls, RCN - 21 Nov 1966 - 08 Apr 1969  ( Trained as *pilot* in RCAF during WW2, transferred to RCN, significant navy flying experience as well as command of surface vessels, was later DCDS, VCDS and then CDS from 1977-80)





> Total Flying Hours: 3,350 hours. Total Fixed Wing Deck Landings: 288 (including 20 night.) Service Aircraft Flown: Tiger Moth, Cornell, Harvard, Cessna Crane, Seafire Mk 3 & 15, Expeditor, Anson, Firefly, Swordfish, Sea Hornet, Sea Vampire, Sea Fury, Hellcat, Bearcat, AD-3, TBM, Avenger, F3D, F2H3 Banshee, F3H2 Demon)



Capt. James Mortimer Cutts - 09 Apr 1969 - 08 Jan 1970     (ret'd as Commodore 1980)

Cdr. Henry William (Hank) Vondette - 09 Jan 1970 - 01 Jul 1970  (Lower Decker, joined and served during war as signalman rising to CPO, commissioned in 1948, Bonnie's Executive Officer 1969 and in command 1970.  Ret'd as Capt)

Of ten Bonaventure's commanding officers, seven reached flag rank, four of then becoming the Commander of Canada's Navy and one of them becoming the Chief of Defence Staff.

And to focus a little more on Admiral Falls, his 2009 obituary in the Globe and Mail makes interesting reading.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/admiral-falls-trained-for-war-acted-for-peace/article4295210/


----------

