# Looking for experienced opinions on training for BIQ



## blacktriangle (1 Jun 2008)

I ran into this while doing some research and was wondering if it's a good workout plan in theory? I intend to change some of the movements to add in more pushups etc.


www.crossfitsandiego.com/SPECIALFORCESSELECTION.pdf 

Does traditional bodybuilding really prepare a person for BIQ, SOBQ, SOAC and the selections preceeding them? I was thinking of moving more into crossfit and working endurance more, as I am not sure if its a good idea to build my body too large for my frame size. If I could do say 100 pushups, 2.4km in under 9 minutes and 20 pull ups, does it matter that I'm only 165 lbs and can't leg press a bus?

Thoughts?


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## ArmyRick (1 Jun 2008)

Push ups, running, rope climbing, squats, ruck, etc, etc. Don't over think and make the d-day invasion type plans for combat fitnesss. Just do. 

I would skip out on the bodybuilding movements.


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## Bplante (1 Jun 2008)

I'm training on crossfit for a while and I think it's a good way be ready for BIQ or whatever else ! By doing the WOD of crossfit.com, you'll get the strenght, endurance, stamina and whatever else you'll need for any physical activities ! 

BTW, if you're running sub-9m for 2,4k, you probably have good legs. It's a pretty good time !


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## blacktriangle (1 Jun 2008)

How far should I be rucking on average? The last two weekends I have done 10km run friday night, 13 km ruck saturday. My 2.4 time has always been good but I wish I had people to train with. I'm hoping to find people in the Reg Force that are willing to kick my ass and let me run trying to catch up to them.  ;D


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## blacktriangle (6 Jun 2008)

Well I've finally run 15km for the first time. Man was it boring, is that an average distance for course? My rucking is getting better, I just need to up the weight a bit.

Also, I have been doing 300 pushups per day in sets of 50 (finishing all 6 in about a half hour) Sometimes I do ruck pushups as well.

I think I am almost ready.


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## DiamondDarryl (15 Jun 2008)

I would absolutely recommend crossfit. Ive been doing it for a few months now and seeing a larger and more balanced gain in muscular strength and endurance then when i did body building. It couldn't be any more relevent to the work you will be doing in BIQ.


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## blacktriangle (15 Jun 2008)

Do you just do the prescribed WOD's from the site?

I've been doing very crossfit-esque workouts for the last few weeks now. I have given up traditional bodybuilding as I used to do as well, and am considering taking up martial arts.


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## DiamondDarryl (15 Jun 2008)

In addidtion to my morning battalion PT i do the exact WOD on the main site. If i cannot lift the prescribed weight I will scale it down to something i can achieve. Give it a go, make sure you warm up properly before each session. push pull squat bend straighten.


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## blacktriangle (16 Jun 2008)

Awesome. Out of curiousity how many pushups can the average infanteer in a Bn do?


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## George Wallace (16 Jun 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Awesome. Out of curiousity how many pushups can the average infanteer in a Bn do?



 :

May I ask what info you really want?

1.  Amount of Pushups done by the average Infanteer:

     a.  for morning PT?
     b.  for Cooper's Test?
     c.  in a Day?
     d.  in a Week?
     e.  in a minute?
     f.  for CF Expres Test?
     g.  for a girl/boyfriend?
     h.  for a beer?
     i.  during a Sports Day?
     j.  before going to bed?

2.  Do you want "Correct" Pushups or "Cheaters"?

3.  What type of Pushups are you asking for:

     a.  Standard?
     b.  One Handed?
     c.  Burpees?
     d.  Some other type?

4.  Are you asking about Regular Force or Reserve Force Infanteers?

5.  Do you want to know if there is some sort of "Second Standard" in the CF?

 >


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## blacktriangle (16 Jun 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> May I ask what info you really want?
> 
> ...





 ;D Oh man.

OK. Max in one set to failure on something like the coopers test, correct form, standard, in a reg force INF unit, and the only standard I'm worried about is the highest one, and thats what I want to be. 

THANKS!  >


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## RCDtpr (17 Jun 2008)

Just do what you can do.  You don't "have" to be the "best" at pushups.  Also why does it matter what the average infanteer can do? They aren't the only guys that do pushups.  I'd be more worried about what the CF average is rather than one trade.  And I'll get flak for this but the infantry aren't the be all end all of in shape people in the CF.  I see just as many of the RCR's laggin behind in a run or ruck as I do RCD's, 2 CER and 2 RCHA on morning PT.......


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## blacktriangle (17 Jun 2008)

RCDtpr said:
			
		

> Just do what you can do.  You don't "have" to be the "best" at pushups.  Also why does it matter what the average infanteer can do? They aren't the only guys that do pushups.  I'd be more worried about what the CF average is rather than one trade.  And I'll get flak for this but the infantry aren't the be all end all of in shape people in the CF.  I see just as many of the RCR's laggin behind in a run or ruck as I do RCD's, 2 CER and 2 RCHA on morning PT.......



Fair enough, but I figured the infantry average was going to be higher then the CF average if you catch my drift.

But thanks for the insight.


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## RCDtpr (17 Jun 2008)

Oh I hear what you're saying.  But rather than asking just infantry about "in shape" related questions you might get a better response if you broaden it to the combat arms in general.  Contrary to popular belief us armoured guys are pretty in shape too.......except the tankers  >


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## Fusaki (17 Jun 2008)

> I'd be more worried about what the CF average is rather than one trade.



Not if you're going infantry. The acceptable standard in one trade is not necessarily the acceptable standard in another. The CF's 19 push ups just isn't going to cut it. Most guys out of BIQ will double that. Take a look at the minimum fitness standard for CSOR and you'll get an idea for what a Reg infantry dude in "decent shape" will look like.



> I see just as many of the RCR's laggin behind in a run or ruck as I do RCD's, 2 CER and 2 RCHA on morning PT.......



Only because we're keeping a faster pace.  

Crossfit and rucking is the way to go.

We had a guy get picked up for The Hill not too long ago. All he did was crossfit, and when crossfit got easy, he did crossfit with a weight vest. ISAP will put a greater emphasis on rucking - heavy weight and long distances. The 77lb BFT on the enterance requirement really is the bare minimum.

For the guy wanting to go to a reg force infantry unit, the Crossfit WOD plus weekly ruck marches will get you through SQ/BIQ with room to spare.


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## Redeye (17 Jun 2008)

Crossfit is definitely going to do you a lot of good - I was first introduced to it on course a few years ago and came out of the course in the best shape I'd ever been in, it's amazing.  That plus getting the ruck on a lot should make you set.


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## RCDtpr (17 Jun 2008)

Ahh the dreaded crossfit.  Phenomenal workout.  But it's tough.  I'm an in shape guy, PT never has been issue.  But crossfit makes my muscles cry


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## blacktriangle (17 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Not if you're going infantry. The acceptable standard in one trade is not necessarily the acceptable standard in another. The CF's 19 push ups just isn't going to cut it. Most guys out of BIQ will double that. Take a look at the minimum fitness standard for CSOR and you'll get an idea for what a Reg infantry dude in "decent shape" will look like.
> 
> Only because we're keeping a faster pace.
> 
> ...



Thanks guys. I've always found rucking to be very boring, and I hate the issue ruck. Do alot of you guys have bad knees even if your under 30? Also, I'm fairly short (5'8) and about 165ish, anyone that small in the infantry and actually do well?

I appreciate the advice so far, and will just start doing the WOD's for crossfit.


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## Fusaki (17 Jun 2008)

> Do alot of you guys have bad knees even if your under 30? Also, I'm fairly short (5' and about 165ish, anyone that small in the infantry and actually do well?



As far as I can tell, its the running more then rucking that wreaks knees.  I read somewhere that running will put 4 times your body weight on each foot every time you take a stride. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know that my knees feel much worse the day after a long run in PT kit then they will after a long heavy ruck march - but then again I'm also wearing vibram soles and custom orthotics in my combat boots so your milage may vary.

As for height, rucking has always been my weak point. I'm 5'6" and 140lbs in the rain. These stumpy legs just don't step as big as taller guys. But I'm shorter then you and I've done it, and there are people shorter then me who've done it too. Its just something you have to work at. Guys who quit don't quit because they're not fit enough. They quit because they're mentally weak. They don't have that "Stay in the fight" attitude and they shut down when things get tough. Its as simple as that. Don't quit.


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## blacktriangle (17 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, its the running more then rucking that wreaks knees.  I read somewhere that running will put 4 times your body weight on each foot every time you take a stride. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do know that my knees feel much worse the day after a long run in PT kit then they will after a long heavy ruck march - but then again I'm also wearing vibram soles and custom orthotics in my combat boots so your milage may vary.
> 
> As for height, rucking has always been my weak point. I'm 5'6" and 140lbs in the rain. These stumpy legs just don't step as big as taller guys. But I'm shorter then you and I've done it, and there are people shorter then me who've done it too. Its just something you have to work at. Guys who quit don't quit because they're not fit enough. They quit because they're mentally weak. They don't have that "Stay in the fight" attitude and they shut down when things get tough. Its as simple as that. Don't quit.



Truly an inspiration,

Thank you again.


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## Redeye (18 Jun 2008)

I'm not even short (I'm just shy of 5'11') but I have a pair of really trashed feet that require fancy boots and custom orthotics and all and a short stride as a result, but I'll echo that post to say that staying in the fight is what matters, you just keep your head up, keep getting the air in, and keep going.  Over time you'll get better at the pace, your muscles will learn the movements and get used to the motions, everything will get easier.

As for CrossFit - "It doesn't have to be fun to be fun."  It's a phenomenal program, and I wish I adhered to it more closely, but it's definitely done me well and it's worth looking into.  Doesn't take much equipment, and the WOD means you'll always have something fresh and challenging, not a repetitive pattern to get boring.


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## dglad (18 Jun 2008)

Running is actually very hard on your body mechanically.  I used to be a long distance runner (even did rather well in competitions in high school); I loved running.  Now, however, I can see the wear and tear it put on my body, especially my knees.  Running in moderation (like anything else) is manageable, but extensive running is problematic.  Lower impact exercises that challenge you aerobically, such as swimming, elliptical machines, cycling...hell, even a good, brisk walk...are better for you in the long run.

As for ruck marching, I'd offer the following suggestions:

-consider carefully how you arrange your load.  As a sect comd and later a pl comd, I tended to check my soldiers' loads pretty carefully, and as a coy comd and CO, I did occasional "spot audits" of my soldiers...in many cases, their loads weren't well balanced.  You want to keep as much weight as possible close to your centre of gravity, which is generally around your belt buckle.  You also want to ensure you use a hip belt, to place as much weight as possible on the strong bones of your pelvis and legs.  Weight transmitted through the shoulders requires much more muscular effort to carry and balance, which is more fatiguing than simply allowing a static transfer of forces through the bones of your lower body

-needless to say, you want to carry as LITTLE as possible.  It may go without saying, but I've occasionally had soldiers carry the most wonderfully bizzare stuff...like extra cans of shaving cream "in case they ran out", or a six-pack of pop in the bottom of their ruck "for when they got tired of water".  You need to carry a) what you're ordered to carry, then b) what you otherwise need to live and fight in the field...and that's it.

-take care of your feet.  There are other threads on this, so I won't belabour the details...the point is that if your feet are bothering you because of blisters, etc. it will affect the way you walk, which will affect your balance and the distribution of forces through your body, and again, increase fatigue.  And if your sect or pl comd wants you to take off your boots so he can inspect your socks and feet, don't look at him likes he's some sort of pervert...it's called taking care of your soldiers.  I wish more junior leaders would do this sort of thing.

-hydrate.  Another "motherhood" statement, but again, inadequate hydration affects your body chemistry, which again translates into things like the extent to which your body can flush away fatigue toxins like lactic acid from working muscles.  The same goes for overall nutrition, particularly including things like electrolytes (be wary of bottled water, as it contains very few dissolved minerals; your body requires certain ionic compounds, like salts of sodium and potassium, for normal neuro-muscular function)

-finally, mental toughness has been mentioned.  Yup, this is probably most critical, and the hardest to develop.  I find that minds tend to shut down long before bodies do; rare is the soldier who literally drives himself until his body gives up (though they do exist).  Ruck marches are, generally, BORING...a bored mind is idle, and idle minds will almost always find a way to entertain themselves, even if it's just to explore how miserable they are.  You need to perform mental exercises while you march.  Count things, play tactical decision games with yourself ("if a sniper fired at me from that window, what would I do?  where would I go?  what sort of fire position would I take up?  what message, exactly, would I relay to my section?  Okay, what if an MG fired at me from that tree-line...?"), talk to buddies (if you're able and allowed to), make up stories in your head about people you see ("that guy over there...what if he's a terrorist?  Where did he come from, and what's he planning?")...anything to keep your mind engaged.  This presupposes, of course, that you're on an administrative ruck march and aren't moving tactically, in which case your mind should be engaged with keeping yourself situationally aware (which you can do anyway, as another mental exercise)


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## RTaylor (18 Jun 2008)

I have a friend who's instructors let him take a small discrete MP3 player on the ruck marches that are for exercise (not on an exercise though).

And drink that water. I've seen a person who didn't like the taste of the water from the canteen not drink squat on a 8km ruck march in the dead heat of summer at Camp Aldershot. He completed it, passed out and the MIR had to haul out the doctor to where he was to put in several IV's for liquid. His body was contorting bad from the lack of water in his muscles. It was probably one of the worst idiot moves Ive ever seen in my life.

When your done a march and feeling parched and tired a good can of non-caffienated pop is good for you because it helps the muscles and so forth respond better (heard this from a guy who did a lot in the desert as a doctor, can't remember exactly why), but make sure to keep the water to you.

dglad pretty well hit it on the nose though.


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## Dee_Dee (19 Jun 2008)

I found this link by doing some research tonight and I will be starting this along with my diet plan on Monday...hope this helps

www.buildingbodies.ca/blog/2005/02/military-fitness.shtml


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## blacktriangle (20 Jun 2008)

Well I just did a ruck march with about 80lbs in my small pack (sorry I like it better then the ruck, but still think both are junk) my boots and my tac vest. The weight doesnt seem to be as big of an issue as packing it properly which is my problem to sort out, and supporting it with a better waist belt system to take pressure off my shoulders. Hopefully the new ruck gets to me before BIQ and helps at least somewhat, but I think compared to the average fresh recruit I should be golden. 

Non issue boots help too


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## Fusaki (20 Jun 2008)

> Well I just did a ruck march with about 80lbs in my small pack (sorry I like it better then the ruck, but still think both are junk) my boots and my tac vest.



How did you manage to fit 80lbs worth of gear in your small pack, man? Did you weigh it?

Don't hold it against me of I'm skeptical about that weight. The only way I see it happening is a 45lb and a 35lb plate. Or maybe if you lined your smallpack with a garbage bag and filled it with sand. My ruck at 77lbs was summer and winter kitlist, a few other random things, plus (IIRC) 15lbs of plates. There was no way I was fitting all that in a small pack.

I don't know how long you've been rucking, but one thing that should have been meantioned earlier in this thread is that you need to be working up the weight. My guess is that if you're asking what the standard is, you havn't been doing it for very long. 80lbs right off the bat is asking for an injury.


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## blacktriangle (20 Jun 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> How did you manage to fit 80lbs worth of gear in your small pack, man? Did you weigh it?
> 
> Don't hold it against me of I'm skeptical about that weight. The only way I see it happening is a 45lb and a 35lb plate. Or maybe if you lined your smallpack with a garbage bag and filled it with sand. My ruck at 77lbs was summer and winter kitlist, a few other random things, plus (IIRC) 15lbs of plates. There was no way I was fitting all that in a small pack.
> 
> I don't know how long you've been rucking, but one thing that should have been meantioned earlier in this thread is that you need to be working up the weight. My guess is that if you're asking what the standard is, you havn't been doing it for very long. 80lbs right off the bat is asking for an injury.



My unit uses the small pack instead of the ruck, so I have it done up in a sort of patrol pack fashion with all the extra pouches attached. I did use plates, but more then 2 to get to the weight and so I could spread it around. With valise added to the mix, it weighed in at 80lbs. It was far from ideal I assure you, and I'd much prefer a better setup. 

I just had to prove to myself that I could put that much on my back, but point taken on injuries.

Thanks again.


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## whelton44 (20 Jul 2008)

hey man to your question no bodybuilding is not a good way to prepare i am a advid competing bodybuilder and i found that when it came down for me to start getting ready for my trainning year i started doing workouts that envolved lighter weights but with more reps , as a bodybuilder the running is the hardest part gainning mass and muscle are two major things in bodybuilding and they do not go well with the exercises and activity that go along with the military as i found out lol, my reccomendation is doing a lighter weight for more reps for about 3 sets  trainning about 4 times a week this gets your body conditioned and toned .
if your looking for some more info id reccomend going over to a site im on its cagedanimal.net or go to bodybuilding .com and search some workouts.

hope it helped


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jul 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Well I just did a ruck march with about 80lbs in my small pack (sorry I like it better then the ruck, but still think both are junk) my boots and my tac vest. The weight doesnt seem to be as big of an issue as packing it properly which is my problem to sort out, and supporting it with a better waist belt system to take pressure off my shoulders. Hopefully the new ruck gets to me before BIQ and helps at least somewhat, but I think compared to the average fresh recruit I should be golden.
> 
> Non issue boots help too



Other than wanting to test yourself, why would you put 80 lb in a patrol pack when the BFT only calls for approx 50 lb straight up total weight, incl helmet, TV and weapon? If I wanted to carry extra over and above, I'd do it with equipment designed for that load. 

Not with a Cadpat book bag.

Your not willing to sacrifice your feet, hence the special boots, but think nothing about your back?


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## joonrooj (21 Jul 2008)

dglad said:
			
		

> .... You want to keep as much weight as possible close to your centre of gravity, which is generally around your belt buckle. ....


I was under the impression you wanted to keep all the heavy items high and tight to your back. This has been told to me by many sect commanders and in an awesome book, SAS Survival Handbook by John 'Lofty' Wiseman.


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