# Fmr MCpl Patrik Mathews - facing U.S. federal charges/alleged white supremacist



## mariomike (16 Aug 2019)

Saw this in today's Winnipeg Free Press,



> Winnipeg Free Press
> 08/16/2019
> 
> https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/homegrown-hate-547510902.html
> A military spokesman told the Free Press he could not comment on specific investigations into members, but that "in any instance where information indicates discriminatory behaviour by a CAF member action is taken."



_- mod edit to flesh out current situation -_


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## brihard (17 Aug 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Saw this in today's Winnipeg Free Press,



Mm hm. And it’s probably gonna get quite a bit worse before it gets better.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Aug 2019)

Seems to me the CAF is being used to push a political narrative right in time for election.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Aug 2019)

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/white-supremacist-in-army-reserve-553050082.html?fbclid=IwAR0gdWGEReORa3Q98xqqlnnCQcknZ-hls031AtgZzJvNkKu9YkxSQdcBzl0#&gid=null&pid=2



> The man who is recruiting in Winnipeg for a neo-Nazi paramilitary group holds a leadership position in the Canadian Army Reserve and is a trained explosives expert.
> 
> The Free Press has identified Master Cpl. Patrik Mathews, 26, as the man responsible for the neo-Nazi propaganda posters that have been posted throughout the city in recent weeks.
> 
> ...



More at link


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## PMedMoe (19 Aug 2019)

If verified, dishonourable discharge.  We don't need that shit in the CF.


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If verified, dishonourable discharge.  We don't need that crap in the CF.



They can only do that if they can hit him with a service offense. As a reservist that's gonna be tough- they'd need to prove him having committed an offense while subject to the Code of Service Discipline... Probably we'll see an administrative review followed by a release under 5f, unsuitable for further service for reasons within his control.

That said- do the due diligence, and if this is in fact the individual in question, get rid of him post haste and publicly. This kind of conduct is a disgrace.

I have no doubt that we have some such individuals in our ranks. I strongly suspect at least some will be known to various police and security agencies. It is very much in the interests of the institution and in the national interest to root them out and to excise them from the military as completely as can be achieved, obviously subject to discretion where there may be ongoing investigative or intelligence interests.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Aug 2019)

Not to take away from him being a shit head if this is true but would a reservist MCpl engineer be considered an explosives "expert"?


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## OldSolduer (19 Aug 2019)

And of course he’s from Winnipeg  🤦‍♂️


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not to take away from him being a crap head if this is true but would a reservist MCpl engineer be considered an explosives "expert"?



Probably moreso than your average nut who downloaded a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. 'Expert' as most of us would see the term? No, likely not... Some loose reporting on this, the author would have benefitted from maybe working his contacts for another day to feel out what the army reserve is about. But he's not totally out to lunch either. I'm sure a combat engineer MCpl knows enough about explosives to make better use of them than most, and to be a real problem were he inclined to be, and if he had access to explosive material. It also gives him a much stronger foundation to 'self teach' beyond his formal qualifications.


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## Haggis (19 Aug 2019)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If verified, dishonourable discharge.  We don't need that crap in the CF.



True.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> As a reservist that's gonna be tough-



Very true.


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

For reference, this builds off the author's in depth investigation (and to an extent infiltration) of Canada's white supremacist movement, as recounted in the same paper days ago. He had mentioned he was 'on' to someone in the military and was working on an ID.

Original link shared in another thread by (of course ) Mariomike in our 'Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim Edition' thread. https://army.ca/forums/threads/124385/post-1580525.html#msg1580525


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## Jarnhamar (19 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably moreso than your average nut who downloaded a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. 'Expert' as most of us would see the term? No, likely not...



Good point.

What gets me is that some of this guys peers had to know what his activities were and the circles he hung around in but never reported it sooner. Comments in the mess, posts on social media. I'm guessing it's not going to be a surprise to people that know him. Hopefully the police start asking people some uncomfortable questions.


This is another example of why I think bystander training (and awareness) where there's human to human discussions are more important to the CAF than our mandated online GBA+ culture.


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Good point.
> 
> What gets me is that some of this guys peers had to know what his activities were and the circles he hung around in but never reported it sooner. Comments in the mess, posts on social media. I'm guessing it's not going to be a surprise to people that know him. Hopefully the police start asking people some uncomfortable questions.
> 
> ...



Mm hm. I got a decent 'insider threat' training session a year or two back, it was a couple hours well spent. The CAF could use some of that, properly delivered by people who can tailor it appropriately to a given audience. It's just like we were told overseas , 'every soldier is a sensor' in the context of gathering intelligence. We absolutely have people within the ranks who pose a security threat to Canada, and who will be most easily 'outed' by a combination of someone in their peer group noticing something, and then passing it up appropriately, allowing for the right person to ask the right questions.

And, all that said, I have absolutely no idea what the MP group has in terms of internal security intelligence gathering- nor is it my business to. I would hope that they're already quite active in that, and I trust that if not, they soon will be.


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## Journeyman (19 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It also gives him a much stronger foundation to 'self teach' beyond his formal qualifications.


Very good point.  

In addition to learning via Google, he's well situated to learn more within the Engineer community -- where he may come across as technically/professionally enthusiastic,  as well as within the White Supremacist community -- where he may be seen as a key individual to nurture/exploit.  

Not that I would remotely consider him any sort of explosives super soldier, but neither do I discount the public relations   "anic: factor."


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Very good point.
> 
> In addition to learning via Google, he's well situated to learn more within the Engineer community -- where he may come across as technically/professionally enthusiastic,  as well as within the White Supremacist community -- where he may be seen as a key individual to nurture/exploit.
> 
> Not that I would remotely consider him any sort of explosives super soldier, but neither do I discount the public relations   "anic: factor."



You're better qualified to speak to it than I, but I would also be concerned about the potentially imminent forced exit from the military as being a potential catalyst towards further radicalization / action. Staying in has presented some opportunities that are best preserved while 'laying low'. Being outed and removed potentially changes some calculus there.


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## AbdullahD (19 Aug 2019)

I tried to do some digging on this subject.. may have failed miserably as some things still elude me.

This chap, has allegedly shown signs that are extremely troubling and called for violence and should be dealt with immediately if found to be true.

I just need to clarify something for myself, the real reason he is in trouble and/or being "outed" is his calls for violence, Not his belief in white supremacy? If so that is completely ok with me and understandable. Where it gets trickier if he simply believes in the Neo-Nazi ideologies and/or white supremacy, why or how can he be punished for what he personally believes?

Yes, I think they are disgusting beliefs. Yes, I only think fools really believe it. Yes, I think it needs to be removed from society and made a footnote in history.. I am just considering the implications. Leave it alone they can actively recruit.. true. But if we go after this ideology and punish those who adhere, it gives them far more ammunition or even a catalyst. 

I just wanted to be clear the major issue is his calls for violence or have someone explain to me the how or why we have to censor his beliefs however disgusting I/we find them.. maybe I have it all mixxed up in my head. Or is there a professional standard in tue CAF that members can not have these beliefs? Reading the earlier posts it looks like that is not the case. Or heck maybe I am just tired of the immediate response of banning or censoring everything we do not like.. albeit this case could be warranted.

I'm done my rambling, thanks for reading. 
Abdullah


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## Journeyman (19 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> ... I would also be concerned about the potentially imminent forced exit from the military as being a potential catalyst towards further radicalization.


Absolutely.  A recurring theme is 'otherness' -- being an 'outsider.'  He had a peer group, that on various levels (including likely some degree of alt-right concurrence) provided support and/or a suitable echo chamber;  now he's being "punished," "oppressed," what have you, by what he'll no doubt see as a bleeding-heart. immigrant-loving government, destroying the country.... or some equally nonsensical drivel (it's not unheard of on this site  :not-again: ).

I have doubts that the CAF is considering more than merely punting the soldier (providing the government an election-year soundbite of being tough on violent extremism), without consideration of any knock-on effects... which could potentially be mitigated by hooking the troop with some form of deradicalization program.


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## Cloud Cover (19 Aug 2019)

Sorry, but they look just like a group of caliphate crapheads (with their black face coverings) in need of a really bad day. The scary thing is that when they come out of prison, they will be worse than when they went in, and that's a scary thought.


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> And, all that said, I have absolutely no idea what the MP group has in terms of internal security intelligence gathering- nor is it my business to. I would hope that they're already quite active in that, and I trust that if not, they soon will be.



I believe its the NCIU that would look after this kind of stuff.


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## brihard (19 Aug 2019)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I tried to do some digging on this subject.. may have failed miserably as some things still elude me.
> 
> This chap, has allegedly shown signs that are extremely troubling and called for violence and should be dealt with immediately if found to be true.
> 
> ...



Let's say that independently of violence, recruitment, propaganda, or incitement, that a CAF member is found to have such views- a decent precedent would be the navy members who showed up in 'proud boys' garb in Halifax last year. They all were put on 'counseling and probation', basically the last step of administrative action before someone is released. That's for views and actions that fall still somewhat shy of outright white supremacy.

Make no bones about it: Holding supremacist/racist views of any sort is incompatible with honourable service to Canada. It reflects poorly on the military as an institution, and it compromises someone's ability to be trusted with information when they hold views that are at odds with our national interest and with the institutional ethos. Anyone so found will, best case to them, be given one and only one chance. As has been well said by others, "I cannot change your views, but I can change your employment".

I would say that anyone who even views violence in the pursuit of these beliefs as acceptable is someone who needs to be swiftly out of the military. This stuff verges on the national security world at this point.


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## mariomike (20 Aug 2019)

Update



> Military, RCMP investigating Winnipeg neo-Nazi army reserves leader
> https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/military-rcmp-investigating-winnipeg-neo-nazi-army-reserves-leader-554974742.html
> At least two investigations are underway into the extremist activity of Master Cpl. Patrik Mathews, an active combat engineer in the Canadian Army Reserves in Winnipeg who holds membership in a violent neo-Nazi hate group.
> 
> ...


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not to take away from him being a shit head if this is true but would a reservist MCpl engineer be considered an explosives "expert"?





			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably moreso than your average nut who downloaded a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook. 'Expert' as most of us would see the term? No, likely not... Some loose reporting on this, the author would have benefitted from maybe working his contacts for another day to feel out what the army reserve is about. But he's not totally out to lunch either. I'm sure a combat engineer MCpl knows enough about explosives to make better use of them than most, and to be a real problem were he inclined to be, and if he had access to explosive material. It also gives him a much stronger foundation to 'self teach' beyond his formal qualifications.



Knowing nothing about the mbr's history, there's a chance he was a Reg type at some point, did some tours and broadened that knowledge before CTing to the PRes.  Not everyone starts out and stays in the Cl A PRes world... :2c:

I also hope his exit from the CAF is very quick and very public.


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## Remius (20 Aug 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Knowing nothing about the mbr's history, there's a chance he was a Reg type at some point, did some tours and broadened that knowledge before CTing to the PRes.  Not everyone starts out and stays in the Cl A PRes world... :2c:



I'm not 100% up on what a reserve CE can get as far as quals go.  But it isn't that far off reality that he has Basic demo and maybe some more advanced stuff like using shaped charges.  These wouldn't be courses any civy could easily get unless in something like the mining industry or construction.  He would be more than an expert than the average person as some people have mentioned.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Aug 2019)

Seen this from another site about the guy in question.



> I’ve worked with him. Saying he’s an expert in anything is...a stretch. Most of his co-workers openly dislike him and state it’s bc he’s not terribly bright, and tends to fuck a lot of basic shit up. If he tried to blow something up without having his hand held, he’s more likely blow himself, and his other want to be Nazis up with him.
> 
> Yeah, he’s a MCpl...in the Engineers. I’m not sure how to explain this, but that’s not a high bar, nor does that hold a whole lot of influence. He has basically been in the unit, had a pulse, and shows up. Not every trade is like that, this one is. Ppl I went through basic with are Warrant Officers in the Engineers in only 8 years, so let that sink in. That’s not normal. Many units have ppl still at Cpl moving to MCpl in that time if they’re switched on. Mathews...he’s not. He was just there.
> 
> ...


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## mariomike (20 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Seen this from another site about the guy in question.



Jarnhamar, would you mind...



			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> You will *properly attribute any quotes* to the appropriate author or speaker.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Aug 2019)

I think that's to quell any possible copyright  issues.


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## mariomike (20 Aug 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think that's to quell any possible copyright  issues.



Ok. If that's the case, please disregard my post.


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## brihard (20 Aug 2019)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think that's to quell any possible copyright  issues.



I saw what he posted as well- it's a post from Reddit that someone posted from a throwaway account last night.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/csjx4a/white_supremacist_in_army_reserve/


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## mariomike (20 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I saw what he posted as well- it's a post from Reddit that someone posted from a throwaway account last night.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/csjx4a/white_supremacist_in_army_reserve/



Thank-you, Brihard.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I saw what he posted as well- it's a post from Reddit that someone posted from a throwaway account last night.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/csjx4a/white_supremacist_in_army_reserve/



Right, looked like a throwaway account someone made in July with only one previous post, and they were quoting another member as well. Wasn't sure if it was worth quoting the source.

Supposing the post/observations are accurate it paints an unsurprising image of the member. This comment really stuck out to me.



> if anyone fell into the “cult demographic” archetype, it’s Mathews. Few friends for companionship of any kind outside of work, single male without strong family connections, religious/community involvement etc. He’s basically a social outcast loner. The army fishes from the same demographic pool for recruits.



From kids identifying as dogs or vampires to soldiers joining neo nazi or hate groups it seems like there's an overwhelming need for people to belong to something and being labeled as something in society.


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Aug 2019)

Am watching CBC News Network.  Currently there is a live teleconference presser ongoing that includes the Comd 38 CBG, Col Gwen Bourque.  According to Col Bourque the soldier in question lasted paraded for two days in May and has not done anything since.  Has only the basic rudimentary explosives training that all basic trained Cbt Engrs have and has no qualifications/authorizations that would allow him access to military explosives or weapons.  When Col Bourque responded to a question about any investigation into the MCpl, she seem to stumble over the initials of the military agency (?NCIU) and shortly afterwards another person on the call, who I assume may have been Public Affairs (I missed the opening of the call and don't know who was coordinating the press questions) who pointedly said that the military investigating agency would not be identified or confirmed.

(oh, finished now)

Now on the CBC site
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-accused-of-involvement-in-neo-nazi-group-1.5253212


> . . .
> Brigade commander Col. Gwen Bourque, in a telephone conference with reporters on Tuesday, said Mathews last worked as a reservist in May, and his unit was not scheduled to work again until September. If he is found to be involved with the group, possible consequences could range from counselling to termination of his employment.
> 
> The investigation is ongoing,and no decision has yet been made, Bourque said.
> ...


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## Journeyman (20 Aug 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ….who pointedly said that the military investigating agency would not be identified or confirmed.


Pointy head maybe.    :
I've never heard of a CAF unit whose _name_  is classified, and the reporter didn't ask for their fucking nominal roll.  Everybody wants to be 'oh, we're sooo secret.'


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## Remius (20 Aug 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Pointy head maybe.    :
> I've never heard of a CAF unit whose _name_  is classified, and the reporter didn't ask for their ******* nominal roll.  Everybody wants to be 'oh, we're sooo secret.'



The system is working if you've never heard of a CAF unit whose "name" is classified.   ;D


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## Journeyman (20 Aug 2019)

Mind you, while I have worn several different coloured berets, I've never gone in for tinfoil headwear.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## MilEME09 (20 Aug 2019)

https://trib.al/OKR0wGn

Things seem to be escalating in interesting ways


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## Cloud Cover (20 Aug 2019)

Military was aware prior to media report... 
Interesting indeed. This does seem to be a rightfully important project of this Minister's interest. Was Minister aware of this particular instance prior to the report?


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## TCM621 (20 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not to take away from him being a crap head if this is true but would a reservist MCpl engineer be considered an explosives "expert"?



Absolutely, depending on his qualifications. It isn't uncommon to have Cpls as EOD and/or IEDD operators. I don't know about reservists and IEDD but they all pretty much have basic EOD and basic demolition.


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## Cloud Cover (20 Aug 2019)

If you follow Mercedes Stephensen on Twitter, you will see she has posted that the PoI was taken into custody by RCMP ERT and then released.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Aug 2019)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Absolutely, depending on his qualifications. It isn't uncommon to have Cpls as EOD and/or IEDD operators. I don't know about reservists and IEDD but they all pretty much have basic EOD and basic demolition.



Basic demo might be a far cry from expert, though I guess the definition seems to be a little ambiguous depending where you look.

I guess my issue is that it would be like saying an infantry reservist cpl/mcpl who's shot the PWT3 and has a support weapons course is a weapons expert. Or tactics expert.

Luckily he appears to be less of an expert according to his peers, but i can see why the media would use the word to push the story.


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## FSTO (20 Aug 2019)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://trib.al/OKR0wGn
> 
> Things seem to be escalating in interesting ways



Don't worry, the likes of Jesse Brown and Canadaland will be all over this as proof that the White Patriarchy CAF is rife with white nationalists.


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## larry Strong (21 Aug 2019)

"......'Hands in the air': RCMP raid home of army reservist accused of ties with neo-Nazi group...."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-reservist-accused-neo-nazi-group-1.5253212



Cheers
Larry


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## PuckChaser (21 Aug 2019)

From the CBC article:



> Some experts estimate the membership in The Base is around 50 to 100 members.



Estimates are over 60 ISIL fighters have returned to Canada. ISIL fighters who actively participated in a terrorist group. No ERT raids. Some reservist who allegedly is part of an online hate group and allegedly is recruiting for them gets the full ERT cordon and search on his home a week after reports of the investigation has leaked.

Why are we not treating both groups the same here?  :facepalm:


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## Humphrey Bogart (21 Aug 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> From the CBC article:
> 
> Estimates are over 60 ISIL fighters have returned to Canada. ISIL fighters who actively participated in a terrorist group. No ERT raids. Some reservist who allegedly is part of an online hate group and allegedly is recruiting for them gets the full ERT cordon and search on his home a week after reports of the investigation has leaked.
> 
> Why are we not treating both groups the same here?  :facepalm:



Easy hit for some major political points.

He probably registered those firearms as well.  Quick application of the firearms act in the name of public safety with a nice show of force to dissuade his comrades.

These dummies don't seem like very sophisticated criminals/militants for that matter.  More like a bunch of idiots that play Mr. Dress Up on the weekends.


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Aug 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> The system is working if you've never heard of a CAF unit whose "name" is classified.   ;D



Well you can just change their name every few years  8)


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## OldSolduer (21 Aug 2019)

The Winnipeg Free Press had an article on the front page and an editorial.
The author of the article really did a hatchet job on Gwen Borque. Not too impressed with his bias or that’s the way I perceive it.


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## Cloud Cover (21 Aug 2019)

I heard this in a TV exchange last night: "Explosive headlines do not make explosives experts."


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## Brad Sallows (21 Aug 2019)

>Some reservist who allegedly is part of an online hate group and allegedly is recruiting for them gets the full ERT cordon and search on his home a week after reports of the investigation has leaked.

I'm hoping we get a press release explaining why it was necessary.  I care about civil liberties much more than I care about harassing any of the gangs in this country.  I don't want the tolerances of the country to be as narrow as the tolerances of the CAF (with which I agree).


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## Blackadder1916 (21 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The Winnipeg Free Press had an article on the front page and an editorial.
> The author of the article really did a hatchet job on Gwen Borque. Not too impressed with his bias or that’s the way I perceive it.



I don't know if the Winnipeg Free Press journalist participated in the media teleconference with Col Bourque or which reporter asked the specific question that forms the basis of the "hatchet job".

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/canadas-military-will-take-aggressive-actions-with-extremist-soldiers-defence-minister-vows-557361812.html


> . . .
> Bourque stressed Mathews does not currently have access to military weaponry and seemed to downplay Mathews' experience with explosives, saying his training in this area was "rudimentary."
> 
> However, a military source told the Free Press explosives are the "bread and butter" of all combat engineers.
> ...



Maybe the Free Press reporter, like me, came to a judgement (though opposing) by listening to the presser as it was ongoing live.  I specifically remember the question being put to Col Bourque and (probably like her) my first thought was "_why is this reporter asking about the soldier being on the base, doesn't he know that reservists don't live and work on bases - what the f*** is this arsehole talking about - he should have some basic background about how the military works before getting into a related story_".  It was only when he explained what he meant by "base" did his question make sense to me.  The reporter wasn't clear in his question - one of the things I learned long, long ago about communication and interviewing (on my JLC) was that it's a two way street and it is important for the interviewer to know the context and terminology that the interviewee expects.

I thought that Col Bourque handled herself reasonably well during the presser.  If it had been me, I probably would have replied to the "base question" similarly to my thought in italics in previous paragraph.


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## brihard (21 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Some reservist who allegedly is part of an online hate group and allegedly is recruiting for them gets the full ERT cordon and search on his home a week after reports of the investigation has leaked.
> 
> I'm hoping we get a press release explaining why it was necessary.  I care about civil liberties much more than I care about harassing any of the gangs in this country.  I don't want the tolerances of the country to be as narrow as the tolerances of the CAF (with which I agree).



You won’t, because it’s none of your business. From what has been reported, police announced that they were executing a warrant on the residence. That tells me that they were able to persuade a judge or justice that grounds existed to enter the residence to search for something. It may have been evidence of a criminal offense, it may have been a judicial authorization to search for and seize firearms due to a revocation by a firearms officer. It may have been both. As for why ERT was present, that will have been based on their risk assessment, which would be based on much more information than you or I have access to.

Police are not in the habit of routinely holding pressers to explain why an authorized search was carried out in a specific fashion. I think you *can* be assured that this wasn’t simply a matter of him holding ‘wrong’ views and having an ERT team show up as a result. There would have to be much more to it than that in order to get judicial authorization. And at the end of the day, the police are still bound by privacy legislation that precludes them from explaining to your satisfaction why they did what they did.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Aug 2019)

I wonder if the ERT had EOD assets since the target was an explosives expert 

Kidding, but serious question about firearms. 

Can the RCMP contact their firearms office and say we suspect so and so may be violent, can you revoke his firearms licence? Where the CFO then could revoke someone's license making them illegally in possession of firearms which the RCMP could then go before a judge and a search warrant for said firearms?


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## brihard (21 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I wonder if the ERT had EOD assets since the target was an explosives expert
> 
> Kidding, but serious question about firearms.
> 
> Can the RCMP contact their firearms office and say we suspect so and so may be violent, can you revoke his firearms licence? Where the CFO then could revoke someone's license making them illegally in possession of firearms which the RCMP could then go before a judge and a search warrant for said firearms?



Not precisely that easily, but the same end can be achieved. S.117.04 of the criminal code allows police to apply to a justice for a warrant to search and seize firearms or other prohibited/restricted weapons/devices on the grounds that it’s not desirable for the safety of that person or of any other that they possess firearms. There are also ‘exigent circumstances’ that allow for this to be done with a warrant if the grounds for a warrant are met but it would be impractical to obtain one (usually this is in the context of an emergency self harm / domestic violence situation).

I’m less clear on what happens on the CFO side of things, though i know they are routinely notified of criminal matters that could trigger firearms license revocations.

I’m not speculating on this specific case. What we do know does conceivably fit this set of circumstances. I could certainly see police applying for such a search and seizure in the case of someone known to have firearms and who is reasonably suspected to be advocating political violence.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The Winnipeg Free Press had an article on the front page and an editorial.
> The author of the article really did a hatchet job on Gwen Borque. Not too impressed with his bias or that’s the way I perceive it.


The author of the article tried to infilatrate the group & got the scoop on this.

Yeah, he doesn't understand the military - BIG time ...


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## Brad Sallows (21 Aug 2019)

>You won’t, because it’s none of your business.

Everything agents of the government - who ultimately all work on behalf of all of us - do is our, hence my, business.  I don't mean police need to provide info on their own initiative with each investigative step they take; I'd only expect them to do so if directed.  Who so directs?  I'd like the political masters to at least confirm there was some solid justification.  Right now, I see nothing that changed except the public shitstorm.  The guy was under investigation and it's just coincidence that the police decided to move at this time?  Doubtful.  There was a pressing need to take him into custody?  Apparently not for long.

The more people hide behind "none of your business", the more sunlight I want to shine on them and the more I want to limit their power.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Aug 2019)

"a military source"

Who, exactly, I wonder?  I call bullshit - a Res F member may have spent a total of "months" on courses and may have participated in many exercises over, say, 8 years, but to give the impression of "months" of hands-on with one particular skill is misleading.  "A military source" should know better.


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >You won’t, because it’s none of your business.
> 
> Everything agents of the government - who ultimately all work on behalf of all of us - do is our, hence my, business.  I don't mean police need to provide info on their own initiative with each investigative step they take; I'd only expect them to do so if directed.  Who so directs?  I'd like the political masters to at least confirm there was some solid justification.  Right now, I see nothing that changed except the public shitstorm.  The guy was under investigation and it's just coincidence that the police decided to move at this time?  Doubtful.  There was a pressing need to take him into custody?  Apparently not for long.
> 
> The more people hide behind "none of your business", the more sunlight I want to shine on them and the more I want to limit their power.



Fortunately there exists a mechanism by which you can learn everything you’re legally entitled to know. Here you go. It’ll cost you $5 and take about 5-10 minutes to submit the request; I’ve done it before and it’s pretty easy. 

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/making-a-request-the-access-information-act

Alternatively you can probably submit a request through Manitoba court records for any related filings e.g., Informations to Obtain for search warrants and such.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Aug 2019)

Why waste $5?  I've seen PR conferences before; another one would not be unusual.  If the grown-ups don't feel a need to explain why it was important to do this now instead of a few weeks or months ago, or that this is the first inkling they have of this group, its membership, and what it's all about, then they won't.


----------



## brihard (21 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Why waste $5?  I've seen PR conferences before; another one would not be unusual.  If the grown-ups don't feel a need to explain why it was important to do this now instead of a few weeks or months ago, or that this is the first inkling they have of this group, its membership, and what it's all about, then they won't.



I’m gonna take a second to take the opportunity to apologize- my last reply was unnecessarily condescending, and I was accurately and fairly called out for that. Sorry for that; there was nothing you said that was deserving of scorn.

There is some stuff they can and will release; some stuff they can’t and won’t. By and large people want to know a lot about why police do certain things, but often there are significant legal barriers to saying much. It results in a lot of actions being necessarily opaque. Often it eventually becomes possible to speak of due to some things becoming public record through various legal proceedings, but often by the time that happens interest has faded.

I have to resist speculating on this case because it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to. I will say that I don’t find any of what we’ve seen surprising given what I know about the authorities police have to act in certain cases. I don’t find how it was done surprising given some of the things we already know, and the reasonable inference that those investigation the file know more than we do.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I care about civil liberties much more than I care about harassing any of the gangs in this country.



I am quite the opposite, especially if it concerns groups of people preparing for a non-existent *war* within our borders.  Do you really think the word "harassment" fits in this particular case?  



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >You won’t, because it’s none of your business.
> 
> Everything agents of the government - who ultimately all work on behalf of all of us - do is our, hence my, business.  I don't mean police need to provide info on their own initiative with each investigative step they take; I'd only expect them to do so if directed.  Who so directs?  I'd like the political masters to at least confirm there was some solid justification.  Right now, I see nothing that changed except the public shitstorm.  The guy was under investigation and it's just coincidence that the police decided to move at this time?  Doubtful.  There was a pressing need to take him into custody?  Apparently not for long.
> 
> The more people hide behind "none of your business", the more sunlight I want to shine on them and the more I want to limit their power.



Why would political masters need to confirm they were justified?  You're worried about 'shining light'...I'm more worried about the folks running around preparing for the "imminent race war".  I'd rather the RCMP and political masters take precautionary actions to stop stupid, dangerous people from doing stupid, dangerous things.  *An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure*

I'm not seeing a possible Enemy of the State storyline here...personally, I think this topic is far, far more concerning and one you should be demanding answers from your political masters about.   :2c:


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2019)

>I'd rather the RCMP and political masters take precautionary actions to stop stupid, dangerous people from doing stupid, dangerous things.

I believe I understand the sentiment, and actually share it, but that is superceded (negated, in effect) by my belief that people have the right to be stupid and dangerous, to form associations among themselves, and to talk about stupid and dangerous things openly provided they are not conspiring to commit crimes or imminently going to commit one.

I welcome any plausible scenario which inspires confidence in the authorities.  Some scenarios that do not:

1. They didn't know about the group.
2. They knew about the group, but not the member.
3. They knew about the group and the guy, and assessed a threat meriting seizures and arrests, but chose not to act until recent circumstances forced their hand.  (Major embarrassment still to come if this is the case and facts to that effect emerge.)
4. They knew about the group and the guy, and assessed no threat meriting action at this time, but decided to stage a show because of political embarrassment.

If the group is such a problem, I would have expected a lot of other noise before now and more to follow.  Otherwise I am inclined to view this as (4).


----------



## FSTO (22 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Don't worry, the likes of Jesse Brown and Canadaland will be all over this as proof that the White Patriarchy CAF is rife with white nationalists.



And as predicted CanadaLand breathlessly reports that "WE HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM IN CANADA!"

Go to the 23 minute of this podcast.
https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/227-scandal-what-scandal/

But on second thought, what else is our media to think when they are utterly ignorant of the Canadian military?


----------



## larry Strong (22 Aug 2019)

Remember "SHARP" training??......this will probably be worse.........

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members-1.4560275




Cheers
Larry


----------



## Remius (22 Aug 2019)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Remember "SHARP" training??......this will probably be worse.........
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members-1.4560275
> 
> ...



Meh, just do a survey lol.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> And as predicted CanadaLand breathlessly reports that "WE HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM IN CANADA!"
> 
> Go to the 23 minute of this podcast.
> https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/227-scandal-what-scandal/


Full quote from Jesse during a 1 minute summary of this and another Vice story from Nova Scotia:  "We have a Nazi problem and we have a Nazis with guns problem in Canada."


			
				FSTO said:
			
		

> ...what else is our media to think when they are utterly ignorant of the Canadian military?


With the exception of very, very few reporters trying hard to get it right, _bang_ on.  That may also be a reflection (at least in part) that the military isn't glowing brightly on the radar of most Canadians in general.


----------



## brihard (22 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >I'd rather the RCMP and political masters take precautionary actions to stop stupid, dangerous people from doing stupid, dangerous things.
> 
> I believe I understand the sentiment, and actually share it, but that is superceded (negated, in effect) by my belief that people have the right to be stupid and dangerous, to form associations among themselves, and to talk about stupid and dangerous things openly provided they are not conspiring to commit crimes or imminently going to commit one.
> 
> ...



If I had to make a guess I’d go with 2. Certainly the group would have been on the radar by virtue of the postering campaign at a minimum, and probably criminal intelligence sharing with US authorities. Knowing they exist though, it would have been challenging to attach that to a specific individual. It appears the reporter’s infiltration of the network achieved that.

Out of curiosity did you catch the first WFP article about the infiltration of the group before it went behind a paywall? It was, to say the least, concerning in its relegations of concrete preparation for violent conflict and their hopes of inviting a ‘race war’. If a CAF member is tied to same, that IS a big deal. We aren’t talking about simply ‘harassing gangs’ here. The white supremacist movement has national security implications.

If an organization says they want a violent political conflict, and if they actively travel and train with weapons, and if they trough infiltration of the military acquire skill sets that would be dangerous if misused, why should that not be taken very seriously?

A lot of the national security world has to work in that blurry space that exists before concrete plots or conspiracies can be said to exist. Disrupting and preventing mobilization to action or the development or viable plots are valid approaches. Putting some heat on an identified threat before plans solidify can help to dissuade them. We also know well by now how quickly someone can move along the spectrum of radicalization and mobilize towards violent action. Would you have our national security infrastructure simply assume that anything they detect has progressed no further than is readily apparent to investigators?

You identify one of these individuals, taking their guns away is at least a good start. And even at that there is satisfactory due process in place.


----------



## Cloud Cover (22 Aug 2019)

this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice.  

If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law. 

And if the MND knew about this well beforehand, and used his political office to monitor and coordinate actions such as the recent request for a separate investigation, then he was possibly conspiring with the media or using information from the media unobjectively and for political purposes. 

None of that takes away from the seriousness of the matter, but it taints the whole criminal case.

As for the military career, it sounds like his months were numbered anyway.


----------



## mariomike (22 Aug 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it,



Is name-calling necessary to make your point?

The reporter's name, by the way, is Ryan Thorpe,
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/biographies/484870951.html


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## Remius (22 Aug 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice.
> 
> If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law.



What was shoddy and irrational about his journalism?

They start seeing posters from a known extremist group looking to recruit.  There's a story there so he tries to get one by going undercover.  once in he sees and hears things that make him decided that he needs to tell the police.  Sounds like a responsible citizen to me.


----------



## brihard (22 Aug 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> this is why shoddy, irrational, outrage orientated, undercover styled “investigative journalism” creates more problems than it solves, and it serves interests and purposes that run counter to law and justice.
> 
> If the evidence that lead to the search, seizure, arrest and possible charges are in large part based on this journalist, and if that moron goes writing about it, claims privilege over sources, embellished, changes, alters, withholds any of it or was contributing in any way to amping the behaviours, then this case may done - at least in criminal law.
> 
> ...



That's all extremely speculative. Much of what you allude to would be caught in the process of getting a warrant- a judge or justice, in reading the Information to Obtain, would be looking at the sourcing of information. An ITO has to have full, frank, and fair disclosure, including exculpatory evidence. This is not a file that would have been investigated by the junior member of the local detachment. This would have been experienced members who know what must be done and how to do it properly.

I'm going to take a second to point out that your air-quoting of "investigative journalism" is unfair, as investigative journalism is exactly what it was and is part of what we should expect from our fourth estate. We expect our press to identify and to highlight problems within our society. It appears that that probably shone more light and offered more detail on something police were aware of generally, but with insufficient information to take action on. I'm bloody sure that they would not have acted solely based on the information presented in a single news article, and that probably this just helped that put together a few specific details that were lacking - attaching a 'who' to a 'what' for instance.

I do not see a problem being created by this journalist or his reporting. On the contrary he took a problem that already existed and dragged it kicking and screaming into the open. Charges may result; they may not. There may not have been offences quite yet committed, though it looks like if not, they were going to. In national security, a 'win' is often not the same as a court conviction. A win may be disrupting an organization of lone actor, prevent things from going further, and gaining more intelligence on what the bigger threat picture looks like. Again bear in mind that this is an organization that is known to operate on both sides of the border. We can safely assume that US authorities are working their side of it actively, and that there is communication across the border between authorities.

It would be foolish, I think, to predicate any angry declaration with 'If...' and then go on to assume that this investigation is dependent on a single investigative journalist's report. It would certainly be of value, but they need and would go on a lot more than just that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> … did you catch the first WFP article about the infiltration of the group before it went behind a paywall? ...


For the record, here's the link again to try, and here's a PDF version that's downloadable (too big to attach), all shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's _Copyright Act_.


			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> It would be foolish, I think, to predicate any angry declaration with 'If...' and then go on to assume that *this investigation is dependent on a single investigative journalist's report* ...


True - if this was the case, this guy would already be locked up, right?


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> And as predicted CanadaLand breathlessly reports that "WE HAVE A NAZI PROBLEM IN CANADA!"
> 
> Go to the 23 minute of this podcast.
> https://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/227-scandal-what-scandal/
> ...



I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head, FBJ posted his video here a month or two ago. Ex RCMP intelligence contractor and terrorism expert. He was discussing among other things Canada adding names to the hate groups list or whatever.

I found it interesting when he spoke about Nazi's and how the last time actual Neo-Nazi's killed anyone in Canada was 20 years ago or something and it was one neo-nazi killing his own, also neo-nazi, brother.


----------



## mariomike (22 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head,



I remember his name. I will not post it.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I found it interesting when he spoke about Nazi's and how the last time actual Neo-Nazi's killed anyone in Canada was 20 years ago or something and it was one neo-nazi killing his own, also neo-nazi, brother.



I think I can guess who you may be referring to.
https://www.thedominican.net/articles/droege.htm
Wolfgang Droege a white supremacist who spent three years in prison for attempting to overthrow the government of Eugenia Charles in Dominica, was reportedly shot dead in a suburban Toronto apartment on April 14, 2005.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2019)

>If an organization says they want a violent political conflict, and if they actively travel and train with weapons, and if they trough infiltration of the military acquire skill sets that would be dangerous if misused, why should that not be taken very seriously?

It should be taken seriously.

>that blurry space

Acknowledged.  This is the hard part.  As hobbies, people learn martial arts, learn weapons and collect them, shoot for sport including "combat"-style ranges, can read anything they please about weapons, tactics, strategy, etc.  People (and not just "whites") may speculate about a coming race war, believe they have to prepare for a coming race war, threaten a race war, start a race war.  Somewhere in that spectrum (at or before the last phase) intervention is imperative.  Up to some point, intervention is illiberal and the risk has to be tolerated.

I know we can handle a substantial degree of risk without over-reacting, because we've done so in the past where aggrieved gangs/groups with weapons are concerned.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2019)

"military-faces-calls-to-train-soldiers-to-identify-neo-nazis-hate-group-members"

Time and money.  The Res F particularly has limits to both.  Big picture, there are more pressing targets for finite resources.  Yes, it means accepting the risk with status quo.  Repeat the terms "opportunity cost" and "utilitarian" to the critics until they properly understand where their concerns fit in.

As for the proto-totalitarians out there concern-trolling in the media, my private life (friends, associations, activities) was none of the government's - or the leadership's - damn business when I was a reservist.  Without cause to go poking around, we don't - full stop.


----------



## Remius (22 Aug 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I remember his name. I will not post it.
> 
> I think I can guess who you may be referring to.
> https://www.thedominican.net/articles/droege.htm
> Wolfgang Droege a white supremacist who spent three years in prison for attempting to overthrow the government of Eugenia Charles in Dominica, was reportedly shot dead in a suburban Toronto apartment on April 14, 2005.



Droege was killed by a delusional drug user not a fellow new Nazi.  I don't remember that incident but I do remember the issues the reform party had at the time with white supremacists infiltrating the party and him being kicked out.


----------



## mariomike (22 Aug 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Droege was killed by a delusional drug user not a fellow new Nazi.



May also have involved an argument over a woman. Wasn't much to go on in Reply #69. Droege was my guess.

A bit more on Wolfgang, 



> In 1994, Mr. Droege's ambitions of creating a racist mass-movement in Canada were dealt a significant blow when it emerged that his right-hand man in the Heritage Front was in fact a Canadian Security Intelligence Service mole named Grant Bristow.
> 
> Michael Boudreau, a professor of criminology at St. Thomas University who studies hate groups, said Mr. Droege was finished politically after the Bristow affair.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Aug 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I remember his name. I will not post it.



Why not?




> I think I can guess who you may be referring to.


I'm not too sure.

I felt like the point he was trying to drive home was that while Neo-Nazis C18 and Blood & Honour are reprehensible they may not be the nation shattering security risk they're being made out to be. 

Which leads me to a weird moments reflection of mine and how much the medias shapes our lives.

When Russel Williams committed his crimes I didn't feel tarnished by his actions at all. Nothing to do with me or my service. He's a psycho murder that just happened to work in the same 95'000 strong corporation that I do.

The other day I (white,shaved head, beard, tattoos) was in uniform walking past crowds of Muslim men women and children in what appeared to be a predominately Muslim neighborhood*.  My first thought was I wonder if they think I'm a neo-nazi like that MCpl allegedly is. And it was such a weird thing because I've never thought of someone seeing me like that before.

Why would that pop in my head?  Is it because Canada (including the military) has "a neo-nazi problem"? Numbers don't seem to support that.
Guilty by association? I don't feel associated with other CAF members doing stupid shit.
Is it because the media has pushed a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) narrative these last few years that conservatives mean right wing and right wing means racists and nazis? 

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

*want to mention they were absolutely polite and friendly with me. Hit some of em with the old _you like army video games? how about camping and shooting guns?_ Suckers.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Aug 2019)

Sometimes early takes on stories become amusing as details emerge over time.  Current headlines on cbc.ca:

"Reservist suspected of neo-Nazi ties prompts questions about whether signals missed by military" (older)

"Top general says military started dealing with suspected neo-Nazi in the spring" (newer)

The how-did-they-miss-what-the-reporter-found story is dead; emphasis should shift to regardless-we-need-more-precautions (a "system" will never be perfect, so the latter is evergreen; no mitigation can ever converge on goalposts as they recede into the distance).


----------



## Monsoon (22 Aug 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The how-did-they-miss-what-the-reporter-found story is dead; emphasis should shift to regardless-we-need-more-precautions (a "system" will never be perfect, so the latter is evergreen; no mitigation can ever converge on goalposts as they recede into the distance).


Perhaps eventually things will swing around to the "How did something the military was dealing with for months end up on the front page of a newspaper followed shortly by a high-profile arrest, days after MND announced his anti-racism initiative two months before an election?" angle.

Nah, it never seems to make it that far, does it.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (22 Aug 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I remember his name. I will not post it.



Just curious but why?


----------



## mariomike (22 Aug 2019)

I just don't buy into the ideas he's selling. I see no need to promote him.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2019)

Great points, Jarnhamar -- guilt by association sucks & shouldn't happen, but some people paint groups with a broad brush based on the idiocy of a few thanks to narratives being pushed all over the place, not just by MSM.  It only takes a few idiots to make any group look bad, and undereducated media doesn't help.


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... walking past crowds of Muslim men women and children in what appeared to be a predominately Muslim neighborhood ... want to mention they were absolutely polite and friendly with me ...


You've given a fair bit of thought to how you felt in the situation, so how about a slightly different variation on the same theme?  Wonder how these folks feel after an attack ISIS/Daesh takes credit for?  Whether they wonder if people looking at them think they're terrorists?  If they feel associated with other Muslims doing stupid shit?  Whether they consider any ISIS-linked attacker a psycho murderer that just happens to be associated with the same million or so member religion here in Canada*** that they are?

*** - Source


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Aug 2019)

Thanks Milnews. Already picking up what you're laying down 

When something happens in the news we race to look for shit to be outraged about. Canadian soldier killed overseas. It's been half a day, why didn't Trudeau tweet his sympathies? Whats taking him so long to acknowledge the death? He doesn't sound sincere. He hates the army. There was a right wing extremist attack, why hasn't Sheer condemned alt-right and racism yet? He tweet sympathies but he doesn't sound sincere. He's racist.

On that note, when there's an Islamic attack it seems like there's a pressure for Muslims to apologize for the attack or loudly proclaim they don't support Islamic violence and they condemn the attacks. Why should Muslims feel obligated to apologize for what another Muslim does? I don't think they should. Same goes for us and people being assholes in uniform. Why do we need to apologize? We don't. Off track a bit sorry.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When something happens in the news we race to look for shit to be outraged about.


That.  Right.  There.  And from all sides. #TheOutrageBusNeedsPassengers



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Same goes for us and people being assholes in uniform. Why do we need to apologize? We don't.


Agreed.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (23 Aug 2019)

> On that note, when there's an Islamic attack it seems like there's a pressure for Muslims to apologize for the attack or loudly proclaim they don't support Islamic violence and they condemn the attacks. Why should Muslims feel obligated to apologize for what another Muslim does? I don't think they should. Same goes for us and people being assholes in uniform. Why do we need to apologize? We don't. Off track a bit sorry.



Apologizing on behalf of a group or family in any way affiliated with an individual (or persons in some cases) who conduct themselves poorly is necessary. Why? Because many outsiders are prone to blanket thinking. Sure, CAF doesn’t *have* to apologize/denounce, religious groups don’t *have* to apologize/denounce, family members of murderers, etc. don’t *have* to apologize for the actions of anyone who tarnishes their reputation. But it’s the first step in damage control, as well as expressing empathy and sympathy where appropriate to those who have been affected. Also, by not acknowledging the behaviours in any fashion, it can be construed as the groups being apathetic, or passively allowing the actions to continue.

I agree that many media outlets inflate, exaggerate and often bring unnecessary negative attention to situations. But for any largely visible corporation, organization or group, or even smaller and more private circles (such as a family), it’s more or less essential for someone to express openly that the actions of one do not/should not reflect on the rest of the population. Again, it’s because too many are very narrow in their thinking and find it easy to blacklist an entire area of people.


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why not?
> 
> I'm not too sure.
> 
> ...



A male with a shaved head and a beard, in a Muslim community? You could probably pass as a local 

Tangentially, there's alot of research out there about the media and stereotyping, viz:

"In many cases the immediate effects of stereotype activation fade after a few minutes, but regardless of their duration, each activation reinforces stereotypic thinking in the long run. Additionally, evidence suggests that once a stereotype is activated, it can be reactivated by something as simple as a disagreement with someone in the stereotyped group, and if brought to mind frequently enough, can become chronically accessible (Ford, 1997; Kunda, Davies, Adams, & Spencer, 2002). Thus, even though media-based stereotypes may seem harmless when considered individually, their cumulative effect over time can be substantial."

https://secure.understandingprejudice.org/apa/english/page16.htm


----------



## Singh47 (26 Aug 2019)

I feel like a lot of people hate me for existing. Speaking to other Sikh there's a similar sentiment that the majority of the forces don't care or are actively involved in making us feel unwelcome.

I sincerely hope this probe will change the army culture and make others more aware of matters of perception. 

A funny example is someone asking me a question about Sikhi then complaining to a warrant that I'm trying to push my beliefs on people. 

There's a certain mindset that there are a single set of Canadian norms and values which must be obeyed by everyone. Any deviation must be punished systematically, and frankly this perception is extremely racist no matter who it's coming from.


----------



## FSTO (26 Aug 2019)

Singh47 said:
			
		

> I feel like a lot of people hate me for existing. Speaking to other Sikh there's a similar sentiment that the majority of the forces don't care or are actively involved in making us feel unwelcome.



Since its Monday I'll have to ask you this. Are you saying that that the CAF doesn't care that you are Sikh? Or that the CAF is actively discriminating against your faith?


----------



## Remius (26 Aug 2019)

Singh47 said:
			
		

> I feel like a lot of people hate me for existing. Speaking to other Sikh there's a similar sentiment that the majority of the forces don't care or are actively involved in making us feel unwelcome.



How do you figure the majority?  I don't hate you for existing.  But I'm not the majority so I don't know for sure.  My colleagues wouldn't hate you for existing either. 

I would start to hate you if you failed to return my calls, not show up when you said you would or fail to follow direction.  But that has nothing to do with your faith.


----------



## Journeyman (26 Aug 2019)

Singh47 said:
			
		

> I feel like a lot of people hate me for existing.


I just took a quick look through your posting history;  I suspect it may not be your mere existence that causes peoples' negative feelings -- it may be a reaction rather than some overarching bigotry.

 :2c:


----------



## Blackadder1916 (28 Aug 2019)

The inevitable and expected reaction, though maybe a little earlier than expected.  Interesting to note that he, supposedly, already had his release in, though his release item will likely not be the one that he expected.  However, unless reserve release administration has improved considerably since my time, he possibly could have been on the books for another couple of years if this situation hadn't come up.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-fired-1.5262197


> Army reservist fired over alleged links to neo-Nazi group
> 
> Master Cpl. Patrik Mathews 'will not be returning to work,' military says
> 
> ...


----------



## Kat Stevens (28 Aug 2019)

Singh47 said:
			
		

> I feel like a lot of people hate me for existing. Speaking to other Sikh there's a similar sentiment that the majority of the forces don't care or are actively involved in making us feel unwelcome.
> 
> I sincerely hope this probe will change the army culture and make others more aware of matters of perception.
> 
> ...



Going over your posts, and the replies to them, I'm forced to come to the conclusion that the only person who has a problem with you being a Sikh, is you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Aug 2019)

Not that I am sticking up for this particular individual...but aren't they just allegations at this point...the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept?

Unless he is being released as if nothing had happened...isn't giving him an unfavourable release item at this point pre-emptive?


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Aug 2019)

[quote author=Blackadder1916]
The inevitable and expected reaction, though maybe a little earlier than expected.  Interesting to note that he, supposedly, already had his release in, though his release item will likely not be the one that he expected.  However, unless reserve release administration has improved considerably since my time, he possibly could have been on the books for another couple of years if this situation hadn't come up.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-fired-1.5262197
[/quote]

Couple questions come to mind.



> This action was deemed necessary, *considering the seriousness of the allegations* and the risk to unit morale and cohesion.



Would this fall under the umbrella of being treated guilty without being found guilty? Does the CAF treat sex offenders in our ranks the same way?



> "*The military is a favoured recruiting ground for white supremacists*. It's also a place where they've long since talked about obtaining training by joining the military," Shaikh said.



And in the last 10 or 15 (or 20?) years there were those 16 cases of members with ties to hate groups. Or even the 60 associated with. Is the military really a_favored_ recruiting ground? Are they just really unsuccessful? Or really good at hiding it?




> Mathews requested a release from the Canadian Armed Forces in April



Postulation: This guy wants to leave the CAF, submits the paperwork and we do what we do best. Now he gets smashed into the spotlight and now the CAF rushes to release him (as per his request) and try and make it seem like we're kicking him to the curb.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> … And in the last 10 or 15 (or 20?) years there were those 16 cases of members with ties to hate groups. Or even the 60 associated with. Is the military really a_favored_ recruiting ground? Are they just really unsuccessful? Or really good at hiding it? ...


Semantically speaking, a "favoured recruiting ground" doesn't necessarily mean a _successful_ one - just like someone's "favoured" fishing spot.  "We would _really_ like more people like x" =/= "We're really good at getting more people like x"

I also suspect, depending on the individuals, the value of even a few such folks making it in might be more important than their raw numbers.


----------



## MARS (28 Aug 2019)

And now he has apparently gone "missing", at least according to his boss at his full-time employment, who isn't being named, because... reasons 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-matthews-neo-nazi-army-reservist-missing-1.5262251


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Aug 2019)

It would be more beneficial to have him tossed out 5(f) or whatever release item applies that would preclude him from re-enrolling.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Aug 2019)

Maybe 2(a)?

2 Unsatisfactory Service 

a. Unsatisfactory Conduct

by reason of unsatisfactory civil conduct, or conviction of an offence by a civil court, of a serious nature not related to the performance of his duties but reflecting discredit on the Service.



> However, last week, Gen. Jonathan Vance, chief of defence staff, said the military had already been talking to Mathews about some of his viewpoints.
> 
> "In April he had undergone the first step of administrative response to his utterances. And thereafter, as I understand it, he decided to put in his release," Vance told reporters.



Complete WAG on my part, but it is likely the paperwork was already processing and was expedited once the story broke, and the G1 folks got everything stamped and signed off.


----------



## AbdullahD (28 Aug 2019)

MARS said:
			
		

> And now he has apparently gone "missing", at least according to his boss at his full-time employment, who isn't being named, because... reasons
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-matthews-neo-nazi-army-reservist-missing-1.5262251



This, I found extremely interesting and potentially concerning. Hopefully, it is nothing and not him having now been spurred into action like I worry.

Devils advocate... if the charges against hin have been exaggerated for or well by the media.. maybe he is just hiding out from all of it?

Abdullah


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Aug 2019)

And...this is also important at this point:



> On Monday, Beausejour RCMP in Manitoba got a missing persons report for Patrik Mathews, 26, who was last seen by family members on Saturday evening and was reported missing Monday.
> 
> "This is a missing person investigation. There is no warrant for arrest and there are no charges pending against the individual."


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Aug 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Semantically speaking, a "favoured recruiting ground" doesn't necessarily mean a _successful_ one - just like someone's "favoured" fishing spot.  "We would _really_ like more people like x" =/= "We're really good at getting more people like x"



As always I am ever enlightened by your attention to detail . You're right of course. Good point.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I can't remember the guys name off the top of my head, FBJ posted his video here a month or two ago. Ex RCMP intelligence contractor and terrorism expert. He was discussing among other things Canada adding names to the hate groups list or whatever.
> 
> I found it interesting when he spoke about Nazi's and how the last time actual Neo-Nazi's killed anyone in Canada was 20 years ago or something and it was one neo-nazi killing his own, also neo-nazi, brother.



His name is Tom Quiggan.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Tom+Quiggin

Tom Quiggin is a former military intelligence officer, a former intelligence contractor for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and a court appointed expert on jihadist terrorism in both the Federal and criminal courts of Canada. He is the author of SUBMISSION: The Danger of Political Islam to Canada – With a Warning to America, written with co-authors Tahir Gora, Saied Shoaaib, Jonathon Cotler, and Rick Gill with a foreword by Raheel Raza. 

https://www.trackingterrorism.org/profile/tom-quiggin

Tom Quiggin is a Senior Researcher at the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies at Carleton University. A court qualified expert on terrorism and on the use of intelligence as evidence, he is a veteran of 20 years in the intelligence...

A mod took down my posts claiming he was:



> The guy’s on the conspiracy fringe IMHO and getting buy in from folks because he was an insider working the security portfolio, has been ruled an expert witness on terrorism etc. But given what he is pushing at this point, that is about as germane as Hellyer being extra credible about UFOs because he was the MND at one point.



That's enough to get you started. Read his stuff, if you wish, and draw your own conclusions. I'm not foisting anything on anyone.


----------



## garb811 (28 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ...
> Would this fall under the umbrella of being treated guilty without being found guilty? Does the CAF treat sex offenders in our ranks the same way?
> ...


Standards of proof in administrative law are lower than criminal law. Just because someone hasn't been convicted of a criminal offence doesn't mean they still can't be dealt with administratively, up to and including release from the CAF.  We even use the administrative process to release members who have never been accused of a criminal offence but who have quite simply become an administrative burden due to their inability to manage their personal affairs.

And yes, the CAF has treated sex offenders in our ranks the same way, including long, long before Op HONOUR was even a thought.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Aug 2019)

[quote author=garb811]
And yes, the CAF has treated sex offenders in our ranks the same way, including long, long before Op HONOUR was even a thought.
[/quote]
Sergeant David Rodwell was sentenced to six years in prison for child pornography offences *and arranging to commit a sexual offence against a child - a 3 year year old kid*. He didn't appear to be released from the forces because of his allegations guilty sentence. 

Cpl. Jason Moore had 
-Three counts of making an indecent image of a child.
-One count of possessing an extreme pornographic image.
-One count of possessing a prohibited image of a child
-One count of failure to comply with a notice issued by investigators

The CAF released him from the forces was placed on administrative duties after his arrest last year.

Kinda see what I mean?  Maybe it's nothing  :nod:


----------



## Cloud Cover (28 Aug 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Standards of proof in administrative law are lower than criminal law. Just because someone hasn't been convicted of a criminal offence doesn't mean they still can't be dealt with administratively, up to and including release from the CAF.  We even use the administrative process to release members who have never been accused of a criminal offence but who have quite simply become an administrative burden due to their inability to manage their personal affairs.
> 
> And yes, the CAF has treated sex offenders in our ranks the same way, including long, long before Op HONOUR was even a thought.



True, although the CF practice ( as a government entity) with administrative law still must consistent with the Charter and the human rights code. The right to a fair hearing in admin law is critical. Some immigration and refugee hearings are administrative in nature, and admin decisions are routinely overturned and sent for reconsideration by courts on the basis of Charter requirements.


----------



## BDTyre (28 Aug 2019)

Years ago, a member of my regiment was allegedly caught with child pornography. From what I understand he had a very frank, honest and firm discussion with the RSM that suggested it would be in the member's best interest to voluntarily release before the civilian police had enough to charge him. Apparently the release was made a top priority. I can't confirm this, but more than one member has said this is what happened.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sergeant David Rodwell was sentenced to six years in prison for child pornography offences *and arranging to commit a sexual offence against a child - a 3 year year old kid*. He didn't appear to be released from the forces because of his allegations guilty sentence.
> 
> Cpl. Jason Moore had
> -Three counts of making an indecent image of a child.
> ...


----------



## mariomike (28 Aug 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Cpl. Jason Moore had
> -Three counts of making an indecent image of a child.
> -One count of possessing an extreme pornographic image.
> -One count of possessing a prohibited image of a child
> ...



Looks like the arrest was circa 2015,

Canadian soldier charged in London, reportedly involving photos of children  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123896.0


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Aug 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> And yes, the CAF has treated sex offenders in our ranks the same way, including long, long before Op HONOUR was even a thought.



And I'll have to call " not" on this....wish I had kept track of the inmates that only got released after they were in a CC.  That meant the investigation, the trial, the DC time for appeals/ assessments and I  was only seeing them a year to two afterwards and they were just now getting released.


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Sep 2019)

Looks like Mathews has gone missing.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-neo-nazi-group-recruitment-1.5268780


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Sep 2019)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Looks like Mathews has gone missing.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/patrik-mathews-neo-nazi-group-recruitment-1.5268780


He's been gone for about a week now. Of course people are outraged over his disappearance.


----------



## BDTyre (3 Sep 2019)

Here's a "great" commentary by Scott Taylor about Mathews.

It contains such facts like "What we do know for sure is that Mathews joined the Canadian Army reserves eight years ago as a combat engineer" and follow up statements such as "Then there is the question of Mathews’ actual status in the air force at the time the story broke."

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/national-perspectives/scott-taylor-a-plethora-of-unanswered-questions-347882/

I can always count on Scott Taylor to give me a good laugh...


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Sep 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> He's been gone for about a week now. Of course people are outraged over his disappearance.



I didn't see if it was posted before the thread diverged.  I don't think anyone is "outraged" over his disappearance.  "Concerned" might be a better word.  As in concerned about what shit he might get up to, that is.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Sep 2019)

Vehicle found ...


> Manitoba RCMP say it has found an abandoned vehicle belonging to a missing man, who is accused of being linked to a neo-Nazi group.
> 
> The vehicle, belonging to former Canadian Armed Forces reservist Patrik Mathews, was found Monday on a rural property in the R.M. of Piney, off Highway 12 near Road 81E, RCMP said Tuesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## brihard (3 Sep 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Vehicle found ...



That’s within around 10km of the US border, for what it’s worth.

Concerning.


----------



## Pieman (4 Sep 2019)

No charges were laid, so couldn't he just cross the border if he wanted to?


----------



## PMedMoe (4 Sep 2019)

Pieman said:
			
		

> No charges were laid, so couldn't he just cross the border if he wanted to?



Unless there had been some kind of alert put out, I think yes.


----------



## brihard (4 Sep 2019)

I’d be a little surprised if CBP didn’t have him on a no-go list, but it’s possible.


----------



## Haggis (4 Sep 2019)

Pieman said:
			
		

> No charges were laid, so couldn't he just cross the border if he wanted to?



Even without criminal charges, there are a myriad of reasons why he could be deemed inadmissable to the US.

- Known or suspected ties to certain organizations;
- No means to support himself in the US;
- No US sponsor;
- No legitimate reason to enter the US ("just visiting for a few days" isn't always sufficient)



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> I’d be a little surprised if CBP didn’t have him on a no-go list, but it’s possible.



Even if they don't, if the USCBP believes he is entering the US to avoid potential prosecution in Canada (they may have intel in this regard) or they believe he does not intend to leave the US, either to return to Canada or travel elsewhere, he can be denied entry.


----------



## FSTO (4 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> That’s within around 10km of the US border, for what it’s worth.
> 
> Concerning.


Fairly wild country and easy to cross without going through an entry point.


----------



## Haggis (4 Sep 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Fairly wild country and easy to cross without going through an entry point.



Very true, and as Brihard noted, there may be a lookout for him at the border, a good reason for him to avoid attempting to enter at a port of entry. USCBP and US Border Patrol actively work the US northern frontier between ports of entry and have a network of sensors to detect illegal crossings. There are significant potential consequences if they pick him up while doing so.


----------



## Journeyman (4 Sep 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Fairly wild country and easy to cross without going through an entry point.


They should build a wall.   :nod:


----------



## mariomike (4 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> They should build a wall.   :nod:



And make Canada pay for it.  :sarcasm:


----------



## Haggis (4 Sep 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> They should build a wall.   :nod:



We will build it out of snowcrete so it becomes a seasonal and recurring make-work project.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Sep 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> We will build it out of snowcrete so it becomes a seasonal and recurring make-work project.



With EI benefits in the off season?


----------



## my72jeep (4 Sep 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> With EI benefits in the off season?


Now your thinking like a Canadian.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Sep 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’d be a little surprised if CBP didn’t have him on a no-go list, but it’s possible.


Touching on that general theme ...


> A missing former army reservist in Manitoba with alleged ties to a neo-Nazi group likely walked across the border and may have weapons, say police in the United States.
> 
> Patrik Mathews was last seen by family members in Beausejour, northeast of Winnipeg, on Aug. 24.
> 
> ...


More @ link

*** - Warning from Rosseau County attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Sep 2019)

Another tile in the info-mosaic …


> It was racist materials found in former MCp. Patrik Mathews’ truck, discovered by border agents during a stop at the Canada-U.S. border, which alerted Canada’s national security radar and triggered an intelligence investigation, sources tell Global News.
> 
> That was also the tripwire which drew federal officials and police from Manitoba to the United States as the search for Mathews — who was reported missing last week — continues.
> 
> ...


More @ link


----------



## Retired AF Guy (5 Sep 2019)

Walk across the border and have a fellow traveler pick him up. He could be any wehere in the US by now.


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2019)

I have to ask this:

Don't you find it ironic this neo Nazi group named itself "The Base"?

Al Qaeda is Arabic for "The Base" is it not?


----------



## mariomike (5 Sep 2019)

More about "The Base" from last November,



> The creation of a new social networking platform called “The Base” appears to be an effort to shift Naziism from a divided digital space to physical, violent insurgency.
> https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/a3mexp/neo-nazis-are-organizing-secretive-paramilitary-training-across-america


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Sep 2019)

Being picked up by Minnesota media now here and here.

Belatedly, this, from the RCMP:


> *Update - Beausejour RCMP seeking assistance in locating missing male*
> September 3, 2019
> Beausejour, Manitoba
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2019)

Bumped with the latest ...


> A Manitoba army reservist accused of being a neo-Nazi remains unaccounted for two months after he was first reported missing, sparking concerns the police and military are not treating the case with the requisite urgency.
> 
> Master Cpl. Patrik Mathews, a combat engineer with the 38 Canadian Brigade Group in Winnipeg, disappeared at the end of August as he was being fast-tracked out of the military for his alleged links to a right-wing extremist group.
> 
> ...


More @ link


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2019)

> sparking concerns the police and military are not treating the case with the requisite urgency.



Sparking concerns from who, CTV?

In 2015 there were some 70,000 reported missing people in Canada.
Same year the US had 634,908.

They haven't found one guy after 2 months and the police and military aren't taking it seriously?


----------



## brihard (28 Oct 2019)

He’s an adult who isn’t charged with any offences, and while there is likely some risk from him, I would also guess there are no clear indications of same, either to himself or to others. There’s not a great deal police can do, and a ton of other stuff on their plate. There may also be stuff they know that hasn’t been released. Potentially they could have indications he successfully crossed into the US.

He’ll surface eventually. If he had intended any harm to himself, that probably already happened months ago. 

Obviously if they get anything fresh that changes the threat picture, that’s another matter. In the meantime there’s a ton of other work to do and far too few Mounties to do it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2019)

I can imagine police don't have the man power to search for someone who doesn't want to be found who hasn't been convicted of anything. I'd rather see police searching for missing children and teens.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sparking concerns from who, CTV?


From later in the article ...


> ...  The fact Mathews is still missing didn't sit well with Bernie Farber, chairman of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network, who has raised alarms about the presence of neo-Nazis and right-wing extremists in the military.
> 
> "He seemed to slip right through their fingers and he's -- poof -- gone," Farber said Monday, adding if Mathews had been suspected of links to the Islamic State group instead of neo-Nazis, "I think this would have been resolved in the space of 15 minutes." ...


Are the concerns zero?  No.  
Are they _widespread_?  CTV hasn't shown that to be even close to the case @ this point.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2019)

Thanks brother. Totally missed that!

Pretty shitty of him to suggest police are unprofessional and biased like that.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Pretty shitty of him to suggest police are unprofessional and biased like that.


That's why folks like that are "clip-or-quote-able" - for better or worse.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Oct 2019)

Maybe Bernie Farber can strap on a utility belt, and spend some time playing MANTRACKER.  It's easy to sit on the sidelines and write articles and issue statements.

I'd want the police focusing on a known ISIS supporter/operative over the former PRes MCpl (given what I know about him);  weak argument IMO.


----------



## mariomike (16 Jan 2020)

> FBI arrests Patrik Mathews, missing Manitoba reservist accused of neo-Nazi ties
> http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/fbi-arrests-patrik-mathews-missing-manitoba-reservist-accused-of-neo-nazi-ties/ar-BBZ1HIz?ocid=ientp


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2020)

More from the NY Times ...


> The F.B.I. has arrested three men suspected of being members of a neo-Nazi hate group, including a former reservist in the Canadian Army, who had weapons and discussed traveling to a pro-gun rally next week in Richmond, Va., in anticipation of a possible race war.
> 
> The men were taken into custody on Thursday morning as part of a long-running investigation into the group, known as The Base. The men were charged with various federal crimes in Maryland, according to the Justice Department. They were scheduled to appear in federal court before a judge on Thursday afternoon.
> 
> One of the men, Patrik Jordan Mathews, 27, a main recruiter for the group, entered the United States illegally from Canada, according to the officials. He was arrested along with Brian M. Lemley Jr., 33, and William G. Bilbrough IV, 19. Mr. Mathews was trained as a combat engineer and considered an expert in explosives. He was dismissed from the Canadian Army after his ties to white supremacists surfaced. Mr. Lemley previously served as a cavalry soldier in the United States Army ...


More @ link

As usual, presumed innocent until due process proves otherwise.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2020)

And a bit more from U.S. DOJ:


> *Three Alleged Members of the Violent Extremist Group “The Base” Facing Federal Firearms and Alien-Related Charges*
> 
> Greenbelt, Maryland – A federal criminal complaint has been filed charging three alleged members of the racially motivated violent extremist group “The Base” with firearms and alien-related charges.  The complaint charges Brian Mark Lemley, Jr., age 33, of Elkton, Maryland, and Newark, Delaware, and William Garfield Bilbrough IV, age 19, of Denton, Maryland, with transporting and harboring aliens and conspiring to do so.  Lemley is also charged with transporting a machine gun and disposing of a firearm and ammunition to an alien unlawfully present in the United States.  Further, the complaint charges Lemley and Canadian national Patrik Jordan Mathews, age 27, currently of Newark, Delaware, with transporting a firearm and ammunition with intent to commit a felony.  The complaint also charges Mathews with being an alien in possession of a firearm and ammunition.  The complaint was filed January 14, 2020, and was unsealed today upon their arrests by the FBI.
> 
> ...



As usual, presumed innocent until due process proves otherwise.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2020)

Rough timeline according to court docs quoted in MSM ...


> ... The affidavit filed in support of the criminal complaint alleges a series of events:
> 
> • On Aug. 19, 2019, Mathews unlawfully crossed from Manitoba into Minnesota.
> 
> ...


As usual, presumed innocent until due process proves otherwise.

Edited to add:  Love 'em or hate 'em, Vice had a bit of this last month as well.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2020)

And finally, the complaint filed in January - as usual, presumed innocent until due process proves otherwise.


----------



## tomahawk6 (17 Jan 2020)

Just made the news today. 

https://apnews.com/27fa219e8157ae200455f0c1b971909c


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Jan 2020)

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/fbi-arrests-reveal-shocking-details-in-case-against-former-canadian-reservist-patrik-mathews/ar-BBZ58qE

Explosives expert Patrik Mathews described as incompetent, stupid and lazy. Former Nazi Base buddies thought about killing him. Guess they should have read his PERs before inviting him on down to star in a race war.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/fbi-arrests-reveal-shocking-details-in-case-against-former-canadian-reservist-patrik-mathews/ar-BBZ58qE
> 
> Explosives expert Patrik Mathews described as incompetent, stupid and lazy. Former Nazi Base buddies thought about killing him. Guess they should have read his PERs before inviting him on down to star in a race war.


Ooopsie ....

More details in the attached affadavit for the latest three rounded up (source).


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Jan 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Ooopsie ....
> 
> More details in the attached affadavit for the latest three rounded up (source).



Those mug shots, yikes. 

If these guys are a


> violent extremist group that sought to “accelerate the downfall of the United States government, incite a race war and establish a white ethno-state.”



Shouldn't trying to bring down the USA government and start a race war mean they're hit with more charges than conspiricy to commit murder and participation in a criminal street gang?

I assumed there would be some kind of terrorism charges


----------



## brihard (18 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Those mug shots, yikes.
> 
> If these guys are a
> Shouldn't trying to bring down the USA government and start a race war mean they're hit with more charges than conspiricy to commit murder and participation in a criminal street gang?
> ...



I just read through the affidavit- scary stuff. Sounds like they were legitimately ready to go.

The affiant is a county cop, so charges at present are likely under state criminal law. This affidavit was for the arrest warrants, and really just needed enough for the same purpose. At the end it references a sealing order until all arrests and associated search warrants are executed, so I've no doubt some doors got kicked, a bunch of computers seized, and all kinds of other stuff. Statements will have been attempted from the suspects... Lots of investigation still to happen once the arrest is made. I would be surprised if there were not further charges. I would also not be surprised if there are federal terrorism and/or hate crime charges added.

Counter terrorism work is a tough balance of intelligence and enforcement. As much as possible law enforcement is trying to learn about these groups, the individual players, and so on. In this case it looks like a plotted attack was imminent and it was necessary to act to stop it. There's a tough balance to be struck between acting to disrupt real threats or dangers, and keeping the intelligence flowing in. 

In any case- it doesn't sound like The Base was too impressed with our boy. I suspect we'll see him back in Canada before too great a time has passed, as it doesn't sound like he was central to much. When *these* individuals are calling you 'incompetent' and 'a liability', that's gotta sting.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Jan 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I just read through the affidavit- scary stuff. Sounds like they were legitimately ready to go.



Yup. I'm really starting to understand your views on why this stuff is such a big deal. I think you're definitely right about how dangerous these home grown terrorists are.

I've commented before about being able to pick your own gender, race and species (not even being sarcastic) but you can't decide you're a terrorist unless someone else approves it.

If these guys want to be big bad homeland terrorists, racists and anti-government I say let their charges reflect it. I know that's not how it works, but it would be nice.

Of course looking at their pictures I think they may not feel as bad ass in prison.


----------



## brihard (18 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yup. I'm really starting to understand your views on why this stuff is such a big deal. I think you're definitely right about how dangerous these home grown terrorists are.
> 
> I've commented before about being able to pick your own gender, race and species (not even being sarcastic) but you can't decide you're a terrorist unless someone else approves it.
> 
> ...



Bar in mind, it looks like we got lucky in this one. This got busted by an undercover. They were able to run a UC play on the online recruitment, get a guy inside the network, and build a file on it which ultimately became not just actionable, but actually an imminent threat. They were using layered levels of access to what was ultimately a very small cell. They were using encrypted comms. It doesn't take much to make communications very difficult for intelligence and law enforcement to penetrate. There was real OPSEC awareness, and they even identified that their greatest vulnerability would be either an infiltrator or an inside who couldn't STFU. As much as these individuals were amateurish in some ways, they had at least a reasonable level of sophistication. They recognized their plan wasn't sufficiently developed, they did a live recce, and they had measures planned to counter forensic investigation.

It's a hell of a lot less resource intensive to safeguard against law enforcement action than it is for law enforcement to successfully investigate something like this. UC plays are planning and resource intensive. As soon as you're dealing with digital evidence that has encryption, that's difficult. If comms are encrypted, the utility of wiretaps / digital intercepts can diminish.

This is a huge uphill battle.


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## Remius (18 Jan 2020)

No doubt some other groups affiliated and not affiliated will be learning from this particular case.


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/fbi-arrests-reveal-shocking-details-in-case-against-former-canadian-reservist-patrik-mathews/ar-BBZ58qE
> 
> Explosives expert Patrik Mathews described as incompetent, stupid and lazy. Former Nazi Base buddies thought about killing him. Guess they should have read his PERs before inviting him on down to star in a race war.



That's got to hurt, I guess he will be happy to testify against them.


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## Cloud Cover (19 Jan 2020)

Here are some pictures of him showing off his supplies and skills:


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## Remius (20 Jan 2020)

like Sean Bean’s character in Ronin...


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## 211RadOp (22 Jan 2020)

> *Ex-reservist wished he had booby-trapped his home to blow up RCMP officers: U.S. court document*
> 
> 'I could really wish they f---ing all started searching my place, accidentally trip a pin, and boom,' the documents quote Patrik Mathews as saying
> 
> ...



More at link

https://www.thewhig.com/news/ex-soldier-wished-he-had-booby-trapped-manitoba-home-and-blown-up-rcmp-officers-u-s-court-document/wcm/eddb2424-18ae-4934-b3ac-f92d84dede48


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jan 2020)

I hope that guys parents aren't recieving any harassment or abuse over his stupidity.

Really gotta wonder how someone becomes such a shitty human being.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (22 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Really gotta wonder how someone becomes such a shitty human being.



By spending all their free time on internet sites that only support their warped world view, and rejecting even countenancing any other views.


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## BeyondTheNow (22 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I hope that guys parents aren't recieving any harassment or abuse over his stupidity.
> 
> Really gotta wonder how someone becomes such a shitty human being.





			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> By spending all their free time on internet sites that only support their warped world view, and rejecting even countenancing any other views.



Toxic/negative internet exposure certainly contributes, but home-grown extremists existed long before Google. I'm of the mind that unless Bipolar Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder or another identifiable mental health issue is present, home life is a significant cause. 

Individuals who grow up in a safe, nurturing, and stable environment with boundaries, healthy displays of respect, and are taught right from wrong, coupled with balanced levels of discipline (or at least taught there's consequences to their actions) don't randomly and/or suddenly decide they're going to go on a shooting spree, wish severe harm upon others, or blow something up. And in the _extremely_ rare instances where they do, 9 times out of 10, the individual was showing warning signs of underlying behavioural issues long before they acted out. The parents either blew them off, were afraid to intervene and/or couldn't discern the line between giving their kid(s) a certain amount of privacy vs perhaps seeing what they're doing when gone for hours at a time; not knowing with whom, or constantly locked in their room. 

I'm no picture-perfect parent, but kids don't turn into disrespectful, violent a-holes on their own. And if they're susceptible to negative influences for whatever reasons, things can usually be traced back to where the deficiency began...


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## OldSolduer (22 Jan 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Really gotta wonder how someone becomes such a shitty human being.



A number of reasons - lack of guidance from adults as a child, brain function, perhaps a mental disorder?

Added - researchers think Traumatic Brain Injury suffered as a child MAY have an effect on one's behaviour as one ages. Also, researchers think that a damaged amygdala my contribute to the behaviour of serial killers.


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## tomahawk6 (22 Jan 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> A number of reasons - lack of guidance from adults as a child, brain function, perhaps a mental disorder?
> 
> Added - researchers think Traumatic Brain Injury suffered as a child MAY have an effect on one's behaviour as one ages. Also, researchers think that a damaged amygdala my contribute to the behaviour of serial killers.



Upbringing. Like minded people gravitate to each other.


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## OldSolduer (22 Jan 2020)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Upbringing. Like minded people gravitate to each other.



That's only one part of the equation.


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2020)

No bail for YOU!


> A former Canadian Armed Forces reservist plotted with other members of a white supremacist group to carry out “essentially a paramilitary strike” at a Virginia gun rights rally, a federal prosecutor said Wednesday.
> 
> U.S. Magistrate Judge Timothy Sullivan agreed to keep Patrik Mathews, 27, detained in federal custody pending a Jan. 30 preliminary hearing.
> 
> ...


More details here (U.S. media) or in attached bail document referred to in other stories.


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## Journeyman (23 Jan 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A prosecutor described William Garfield Bilbrough IV — a 19-year-old pizza delivery driver who lives with his grandmother in Denton, Maryland — as a leader of the group who was seen as a “prophet” by Mathews and the third man arrested in the case.


Supremacist all right.          :rofl:


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2020)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Supremacist all right.          :rofl:


Still, best outta 3's still best - of sorts, anyway ...


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## 211RadOp (24 Jan 2020)

The family's reaction to all this.  Mom was "flabbergasted when she first heard reports that her son was deeply entwined with The Base" and Grandma was" “just baffled” that Mathews had become a high-profile face of North America’s growing white-supremacy movement."

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/alleged-manitoba-white-supremacist-had-an-african-canadian-girlfriend-his-mother-says/ar-BBZgoEr?ocid=ientp


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2020)

The latest ...


> Ex-Canadian reservist Patrik Mathews faces up to a maximum of 60 years in U.S. prison if convicted, after he and two other members of The Base, a violent neo-Nazi paramilitary group, were indicted by federal grand juries in Maryland and Delaware this week.
> 
> Mathews, 27, who is originally from Beausejour, Man., was arrested in Delaware earlier this month after he fled the country when he was outed as an alleged recruiter for The Base in August.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (17 Feb 2020)

A bit of Canadian follow-up ...


> Canada's military is still defining the term "hateful conduct" as it grapples with how to better detect and discipline white supremacists in its ranks.
> 
> In a recent wide-ranging interview with CBC News, military leaders said they have identified areas of improvement and are working toward change. They hope to announce details in the coming months.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2020)

Pleads not guilty ...


> A former Canadian Forces reservist at the centre of an alleged white-supremacist plot to trigger a race war in the United States pleaded not guilty to weapons charges Tuesday as his lawyer indicated he plans to use the First Amendment of the U.S. constitution to defend his client.
> 
> Patrik Mathews, sporting an orange jumpsuit, unruly hair and a long, reddish beard, stood ramrod-straight in a Maryland courtroom as Judge Timothy Sullivan asked him to state his name and whether he fully understood the charges against him.
> 
> ...


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## CountDC (12 Mar 2020)

"The military fast-tracked his request to be released from the reserves. That officially came through on Aug. 30, 2019."

Wondering exactly what this means?  How did they fast-track it?  I have released a reservist within a week so did they complete his in an hour?


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## The Bread Guy (12 Mar 2020)

CountDC said:
			
		

> "The military fast-tracked his request to be released from the reserves. That officially came through on Aug. 30, 2019."
> 
> Wondering exactly what this means?  How did they fast-track it?  I have released a reservist within a week so did they complete his in an hour?


First media report of the man in question:  18 Aug 2019

If the release came through 30 Aug 2019, that's 9 working days (including first and last) - may not be a week, but that's faster than in the old days when I was still in.


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## medicineman (12 Mar 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> First media report of the man in question:  18 Aug 2019
> 
> If the release came through 30 Aug 2019, that's 9 working days (including first and last) - may not be a week, but that's faster than in the old days when I was still in.



I saw one happen in the space of 72 hours - dude went home from work on Friday, come back Monday morning only to be told get your kit together and be escorted around the Base to clear out, handing ID in at the guardhouse by 0930.

You can make anything happen if you want and plan.

MM


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## Old Sweat (12 Mar 2020)

This may not be a record, but it certainly was quick. A certain regular second lieutenant attempted to break into our battery combined mess in the field early one morning. Need I add alcohol was a factor? Anyway, in the process he woke the barman, who took him on. Bang, close arrest until first light. The CO, who had been brought into the situation very quickly, proceeded to Petersville, where, among others, the Adjutant General of the Canadian Army was in attendance observing the exercise. There was a procedure for disposing of unwanted officers called an Adjutant General's Referral. Sunray present one to the great man, and by mid-morning the ex-second lieutenant was standing at the Oromocto Bus Stop with a ticket home and a suitcase of civvies.

For my sins, I was the young gentleman's troop commander, but had been deep in the weeds FOOing with the RHC during all this. On return to our battery bivouac, I was pleasantly surprised to have one less screwup to keep me awake nights..


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Mar 2020)

The quickest I've seen was accomplished in under 8 hours.  A soldier of dubious quality was released from cells (had done 7 days guardhouse time - not all that unusual back then in the '70s) and the first thing next morning went to the OR and put in his release.  By the time that he returned to the OR after lunch, having reconsidered his rash decision, found that his request had been approved, a release instruction had been cut and received from NDHQ and that a Cpl was waiting to escort him round to do his clearances.  He was out the gate before 1600 hrs.  The Chief Clerk (a man of infinite talents - was later CFR'ed) was heard to comment (after the soldier had put in his release), "No way is he getting an opportunity to back out, he's gone today".


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## TheSnake (29 Mar 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The quickest I've seen was accomplished in under 8 hours.  A soldier of dubious quality was released from cells (had done 7 days guardhouse time - not all that unusual back then in the '70s) and the first thing next morning went to the OR and put in his release.  By the time that he returned to the OR after lunch, having reconsidered his rash decision, found that his request had been approved, a release instruction had been cut and received from NDHQ and that a Cpl was waiting to escort him round to do his clearances.  He was out the gate before 1600 hrs.  The Chief Clerk (a man of infinite talents - was later CFR'ed) was heard to comment (after the soldier had put in his release), "No way is he getting an opportunity to back out, he's gone today".


That's quick was that Reg or Res Force?


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## X Royal (29 Mar 2020)

Quickest I seen was a MSE OP at CFB London.
He was detailed to drive the Base RSM to Hamilton for a mess diner.
After dropping off the Base RSM he proceeded to get drunk and write off the staff car.
Now RSM didn't know why his return ride never showed up.
He was shuttled back to London by various police departments.
MSE Op was on his way out of the base Monday, as the staff car was being brought back to CFB London a flatbed.


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Mar 2020)

TheSnake said:
			
		

> That's quick was that Reg or Res Force?



Regular Force.  1 Field Ambulance.

The individual in question had previously been suspected/accused/denounced (hell, everyone knew thought he had done it) of thieving from other pers when we were on ex in Wainwright, but the manner in which NCOs "arranged" to find evidence precluded having him charged.  The RSM held a parade and, without specifically naming any individual, instructed the gathered troops that he considered such thieves to be the lowest form of life and if NCOs could not properly perform their duty as disciplinarians, then all he wanted to know was where to find the body.  His later charge and detention was unrelated (honestly!) to his previous suspected behaviour.


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## armyvern (4 Apr 2020)

We did an overnighter in Gagetown.

Court Martial concluded in the morning; I got a phone call right afterwards to email over an e-copy of his clothing docs to CTC so they could do a 100% kit check and they advised they'd have him at my office for 1430hrs next day to out-clear. They emailed me a list of everything he was missing and I prepped the Stores Loss Report for his out clearance. I took back his kit and signed his PLCC and handed it to the clerk that was accompanying the escorts. She took away his ID card and headed back to CTC with that and his signed MLR and his escorts took him to the Main gate. Done. Just like that. Quite a few sections jumped to make that one happen so quick.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Apr 2020)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> We did an overnighter in Gagetown.
> 
> Court Martial concluded in the morning; I got a phone call right afterwards to email over an e-copy of his clothing docs to CTC so they could do a 100% kit check and they advised they'd have him at my office for 1430hrs next day to out-clear. They emailed me a list of everything he was missing and I prepped the Stores Loss Report for his out clearance. I took back his kit and signed his PLCC and handed it to the clerk that was accompanying the escorts. She took away his ID card and headed back to CTC with that and his signed MLR and his escorts took him to the Main gate. Done. Just like that. Quite a few sections jumped to make that one happen so quick.



'He will win whose Army is animated by the same spirit.' Sun Tzu


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## OldSolduer (4 Apr 2020)

I’ve seen one done in under five days. 

Wow - eight hours. Good job.


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## Old Sweat (5 Apr 2020)

A bit off the track, but Gunner lore from the 50s had a certain Lieutenant Colonel EMD Leslie (son of Andy McNaughton and father of Andy Leslie) actually resurrect the old British Army practice of drumming a soldier out of the service. This apparently took place when he was CO of 1 RCHA (and not during the regiment's tour in Korea), and resulted in him receiving a stern talking to from someone of the red-tabbed variety.

Drumming out was reserved for serious offenders, and had the culprit slow marched to a drum roll, or maybe the "Rogue's  March", through the ranks to the barrack gate. Here the youngest soldier in the regiment would administer a kick to his butt to expel him from HM's service.


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## PMedMoe (4 Oct 2021)

Ex-Manitoba reservist should get 25 years in prison, U.S. prosecutors say

U.S. prosecutors want former Manitoba reservist sentenced to 25 years

I hope he gets it.  In a U.S. prison.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Oct 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Ex-Manitoba reservist should get 25 years in prison, U.S. prosecutors say
> 
> U.S. prosecutors want former Manitoba reservist sentenced to 25 years
> 
> I hope he gets it.  In a U.S. prison.



Nice to see the CAF raising profile by grabbing the headlines 

#any-advertising-is-good-advertising


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## OldSolduer (4 Oct 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Ex-Manitoba reservist should get 25 years in prison, U.S. prosecutors say
> 
> U.S. prosecutors want former Manitoba reservist sentenced to 25 years
> 
> I hope he gets it.  In a U.S. prison.


I do as well. Its really a good thing he's not being tried here. He'd get a 10 year sentence minus time in custody, and spend maybe six years behind bars. Mind you in Merica he may not see the outside again.


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## RangerRay (4 Oct 2021)

brihard said:


> Let's say that independently of violence, recruitment, propaganda, or incitement, that a CAF member is found to have such views- a decent precedent would be the navy members who showed up in 'proud boys' garb in Halifax last year. They all were put on 'counseling and probation', basically the last step of administrative action before someone is released. That's for views and actions that fall still somewhat shy of outright white supremacy.
> 
> Make no bones about it: Holding supremacist/racist views of any sort is incompatible with honourable service to Canada. It reflects poorly on the military as an institution, and it compromises someone's ability to be trusted with information when they hold views that are at odds with our national interest and with the institutional ethos. Anyone so found will, best case to them, be given one and only one chance. As has been well said by others, "I cannot change your views, but I can change your employment".
> 
> I would say that anyone who even views violence in the pursuit of these beliefs as acceptable is someone who needs to be swiftly out of the military. This stuff verges on the national security world at this point.


He’ll probably get in good with a white power gang in the joint so I think he’ll be ok. 🙁


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## Maxman1 (12 Oct 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> Ex-Manitoba reservist should get 25 years in prison, U.S. prosecutors say
> 
> U.S. prosecutors want former Manitoba reservist sentenced to 25 years
> 
> I hope he gets it.  In a U.S. prison.


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