# Cenotaph/Memorial Vandalism/Solutions-Laws (merged)



## Cloud Cover

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060509.BCBRIEFS09-3/TPStory/National


Tuesday, May 09, 2006
Canadian flags burned, Veterans' headstones overturned 
'Cowards' targeted graves, veterans' spokesman says
Kamloops -- A veterans' spokesman blames "cowards" for targeting military graves and burning a Canadian flag.

Gord Marsh of the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans Association said yesterday someone overturned veterans' headstones at the Pleasant Street Cemetery.

The vandals also burned or destroyed Canadian flags marking those graves for a special VE-Day ceremony planned for last night.

RCMP Corporal Fran Bethell said police have no suspects. "We haven't been able to locate any suspects, so we're making an appeal to the community." 

CP article from the May 9, 2005 online edition of the Globe and Mail


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## dardt

utterly disgusting, I hope they find those cowards. If the police are lucky they'll blab about it and someone will turn them in.


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## Korus

What's really pathetic is that someone out there thinks they've done something to better the world by desecrating a Veteran's grave... Jolly good show, you've thwarted the new world order once again. 


Absolutely disgusting.


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## 17thRecceSgt

Maybe the cops, if they find out, should just announce their names in the paper and "let nature take it's course".  I am sure they would find the tree monsters some night shortly thereafter...


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## military granny

I heard this on the A.M. news. It sickens me to know there idiots like this in the_ *world* _ never mind Canada. Who raised these people? My grandfather was WWII vet as were his brothers and everytime I am "home" in Manitoba I take flowers etc. to all of them. To think that someone would do that to his grave makes me sick to my stomach. I just wish I lived closer so I could have been out there helping the old fellas get things back right.


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## SHELLDRAKE!!

Disgusting, this (in my opinion) is most likely youths who figure they want to make a statement because

a)Daddy didn't love me enough
b)Canada is in "IRAQ" to steal oil
c)They couldn't kick the bed wetting problems
d)all of the above


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## Wookilar

I'm with MRM. I haven't seen a tree monster in years and something like this would be a perfect opportunity. 

They probably will talk, fools like this do believe they are doing their little part to stick it to the man and will want to brag about it.

Punks.


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## JBP

Wookilar said:
			
		

> I'm with MRM. I haven't seen a tree monster in years and something like this would be a perfect opportunity.
> 
> They probably will talk, fools like this do believe they are doing their little part to stick it to the man and will want to brag about it.
> 
> Punks.



Fools like me believe they are doing thier part by becomming a "tree monster."

I can not believe this happened, I cannot even fathom witnessing an act like that.

 :threat:


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## 17thRecceSgt

Imagine how the vet's feel...sitting around the Legion in the morning...having a coffee or something with all the boys that are left that they served with...and having to see crap like this on the news or hear it on the radio.

Ungrateful freakin' people in this country...shameful.

"tree monsters" would be a good thing if their names make it onto the news if they are caught...what will the courts do?  Fine them?  "You are a bunch of big poopies.  Don't do that again."

Its a joke... :rage:


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## vangemeren

The Legion here is Petawawa was vandalized last week. Don't know all the details.


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## 17thRecceSgt

:fifty:

what the hell is wrong with the people in this country??  Lets ship all the pr**cks like that to Astan and leave them in the mountains...


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## Franko

van Gemeren said:
			
		

> The Legion here is Petawawa was vandalized last week. Don't know all the details.



Yeah....heard about that too. What is it with the kids these days?

I say kids because youths take responsibility for their actions and have a moral compass to guide them....whereas kids don't.

Outright disgusting. Way to thank the vets for their sacrifices.

Regards


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## military granny

MRM we really don't what to send them to Astan unless they make them a_ nice _  obstacle course out near the firing range. And think of the cost to us Joe tax payer to get them there. No i think they should be put on a military base here with a bunch of pi$$ed off CF members and write on the back of their coveralls " I desecrated a war vets grave site" and see what happens to them after a few nights.


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## 17thRecceSgt

MilGranny,

I think it would be less than a few nights..."minutes and hours" seems to be more likely to me.

Well, to the vet's, ignore those cheesed**cks.  Your country is grateful.   

Mud


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## Devlin

What a bunch of oxygen thieves, these clowns should be sent out in front of our guys to clear IED's and minefields.....walking bloodclots everyone of them.


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## military granny

Devlin I never thought about that, maybe it would be a good waste of my tax dollars to send them to A'stan after all.


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## Langevin

theres nothing more i can add to this but if some idiotic person did that around here i would try to find out who did it and beat them with a aluminum pole with the Canadian flag painted on it


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## military granny

Langevin I would be better if you could find someone to weld a Canadian flag to said pole then every time you hit the b*****d it would imprint the flag across their a$$


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## 17thRecceSgt

:rofl:


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## 1feral1

Fear not lads, justice will come in time, and there is no honour amoung crims, so sooner or later one will brag about it, and before you know it, they'll be caught.

The true crime about this is the offenders will get off due to an impotent justice system, and that we all know is true. In today's Canada  and throughout the western world, its the criminals that have all the rights, the victims have nothing.

The best thing that could happen to these gutless wonders is to be named, and pay restitution by cleaning the mess up they made, or better yet, a little bit of street justice, and a good shyte-kicking too boot.

No PC here, sorry.


I too am disgusted.

Wes


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## military granny

Mr. Allen The people who did this should have to stand in front of the city of Kamloops and apologise to everyone of them, then go to the Legions one by one and again in front of the families of the men buried in that grave yard.


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## Cloud Cover

> What ever happened to ...



Stand easy here. Express your disgust in a moderate manner and please refrain from giving the media watching this site any reason whatsoever to further characterize serving members as louts. 

I knew I should have posted this thread in radio chatter.

Thanks,   

Whiskey.


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## military granny

Sorry Whiskey
Edited.


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## 17thRecceSgt

Whiskey,

Ack.  Maybe IF the media is reading this, they can follow the story up with "Canadian Citizens Appauled By Acts Against Vet's".

I truly feel bad for the old guys' in the Legion that have to endure stuff like this together.  Maybe the "criminals" should be sent to the European battlefields to the grave sites with a few vet's to tell the stories of the men that served...let them get some feel for it.  Of course, they should be in shackles and cuff's, just to let them know its not a vacation.  How do you feel about your acts now their people?  

The CF is not a group of thugs, however, I believe we do get upset and defensive for any mistreatment of our vet's and rightfully so IMO.


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## GAP

Are we not looking for personnel for Darfur?? Hey they can vandalize all they want!!
 the vision of them in the camps, priceless...


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## SHELLDRAKE!!

The nice thing is, there are more and more student trips to places like Juno and Vimy to teach the youth about our history. One would hope these "educated" kids would be the ones to turn in the thugs.


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## aluc

Nothing anyone has said here is inappropriate or too outrageous. These incomprehensible acts are totally out of line. You do not dishonour the dead, and especially those that dedicated their lives to life, liberty, and justice for all . Ingrates...all of them.


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## Cloud Cover

Some things have been deleted.


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## aluc

my mistake....


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## Kat Stevens

Yet another point to prove the case for retroactive abortion.  Time to thin the herd.... :


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## Pte Joker

hope they find these sick bunch of retards  :threat:


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## mover1

In a conversation with my dad the other night. I guess that the War Monument (Cenotaph) in River Hebert N.S. was vandalized by some teens. They smashed the head and broke the gun on the Monument itself. 

The Local Legion is not taking this too lightly and are out for blood. 

On a similar note. Just to make everyones blood boil a bit more. Does anyone remember a certain Trooper in an armour regiment to be named later (rhymes with bait Can I Aid Ian, Who's Thar). Who was charged for vandalism at Vimy Ridge in the early 1990's (Hint the guy wasn't in A or C, Recce, or HQ Sqn)


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## 17thRecceSgt

So he was in "E" or "F" Sqn??    :blotto:


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## Hot Lips

That's really terrible to hear mover...lack of respect seems to run rampit today  

HL


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## mover1

B Sqn ....Mud Recce you missed the obvious.  ;D

I would have narrowed it down to the troop and Callsign but......


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## Spring_bok

Just"Reed" between the lines.


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## mover1

Someone remembers......


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## 17thRecceSgt

mover1 said:
			
		

> B Sqn ....Mud Recce you missed the obvious.  ;D
> 
> I would have narrowed it down to the troop and Callsign but......



Or I was playin' dumb (which doesn't take much effort)   ;D


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## Hot Lips

Oh my we left ourselves open for this one...MudMan...

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

HL


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## mover1

Promote that man


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## 17thRecceSgt

mover1 said:
			
		

> Promote that man



I keep standing in the mirror, saying that and pointing at the reflection when the CO walks by...no luck so far


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## GAP

Maybe he thinks you are talking and pointing at him and he is really appreciative


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## 17thRecceSgt

GAP said:
			
		

> Maybe he thinks you are talking and pointing at him and he is really appreciative



 :rofl:


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## ReadyandWilling

As embaressing as this is to say, I used to live in Kamloops, and probably went to school with the S***heads who did this. The even more sickening part is that my grandfather, a Decorated hero of WWII, had one of his friends grave stones overturned. WHy would anyone in their right mind, or in any state of mind, do something so evil. I am appalled at the gull of these people. 

RAW


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## 17thRecceSgt

Just answered your own question...*why would anyone in their RIGHT mind*

They have fallen, and they can't get up type thing...only mentally.


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## ReadyandWilling

A mental fallen but can't get up, haha, I like the sound of that.


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## Bomber

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story.html?id=dfaae499-b7ae-4f6d-8190-b1fed9077bdb&k=55262

Please lock if this has been posted already


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## KevinB

I am speechlessly appalled


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## orange.paint

This has to be the most discusting thing I've seen In a while.Hats off to Dr. Michael Pilon who somehow managed to stay calm and now ram his fist down this hippies throat.It appears he has been asking for somekind of solution with no response.How about GGFG taking a post in ceremonial dress there.Having a troop actually there would proably be enough of a deterrent and being downtown be a tourist attraction.

So besides gestapo and curb stomping how else do you guys see preventing this desecration from happening?


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## George Wallace

We should 'electrify' it.  That would be a show stopper.   >


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## Yrys

Is she clueless?




> Sgt. Monique Beauchamp, a spokeswoman for the RCMP, said the force works in partnership with Ottawa police and the various government agencies who organize Canada Day to patrol the festivities, but there are no specific measures to protect the war memorial.
> 
> "I wish we could be everywhere and take care of every single incident, but the important part is to make sure people have a safe place to enjoy the fireworks and then be on their way home safely," she said.



Seem to me that specific measure ARE needed at least on Canada day!


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## Hot Lips

Tears well up in my eyes when I read these things and my heart sinks in my chest.
Today's youth has little repsect for anyone or anything...and IMO it starts at home...

My grandfathers would be rolling in their graves  :rage:

+1 George to electrifying it

HL


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## orange.paint

Yrys said:
			
		

> Is she clueless?
> 
> 
> Seem to me that specific measure ARE needed at least on Canada day!



Although I do agree someone should have been watching the tomb,I do understand what she is saying.They were there to make sure everything was safe.With the terrorist threat,drunken idiot's fighting etc I'm sure they had their hands full.

But really what are the solutions that they could implement.It seems every couple holidays this place is targeted by idiots such as in the article.Remember the graffiti a few years back?

I personally think it could fall into the GGFG's hands full time or a rotating duty through 2 CMBG.Stay at the laurier and do shifts at the tomb....sounds like a good go to me.

I'm really interested in what comes of this and how bad he will get charged.Public indecency for sure,hopefully see some extra charges added.All he had to do was go to the rideau center...but I guess that 37 second walk just wasn't a possibility.


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## George Wallace

Right across the street, facing the NAC, is a park and lots of bushes........then of course the Rideau Canal, in which to wash up after (or during) the act.....


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## paracowboy

> I personally think it could fall into the GGFG's hands full time or a rotating duty through 2 CMBG.


I like this, too. Troops could be put on TD or something. I'm sure that the Reserves could use the work, and it gives the CF a higher profile, as well as giving Ottawa another tourist attraction.

They'd need some ROEs, though, and LEO coordination, I'd think.


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## the 48th regulator

Despicable,

And they have the gall to celebrate Canada Day,

_They fell with their faces to the foe. 

They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning

We will remember them. _  

dileas

tess


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## orange.paint

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I like this, too. Troops could be put on TD or something. I'm sure that the Reserves could use the work, and it gives the CF a higher profile, as well as giving Ottawa another tourist attraction.
> 
> They'd need some ROEs, though, and LEO coordination, I'd think.



I would think most people would respect the fact that there is a soldier standing there with a c-7 bayonet mounted.But for the few that didn't they should be allowed the power of arrest,soft tissue stuff.

Or better yet two ceremonial guard on each side from the army and a RCMP in full dress uniform.That takes care of all the legal ROE problems which would arise in soldiers in the city of Ottawa.


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## Franko

paracowboy said:
			
		

> They'd need some ROEs, though, and LEO coordination, I'd think.



Ya want ROEs?

How about this:

1. Pers caught desicrating the tomb or site gets a throat punch.

2. When in doubt see ROE 1.

3. When ROE #1 is completed, throw them into a patrol car and throw the book at them.


Scumbags....I hope someone knows this arsehole and does the right thing and reports him to the RCMP in Ottawa.

Regards


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## Infanteer

The US never would have such a problem as there is a guard mounted on the tomb at all times.  Considering we pay for Skyhawks and Snowbirds, I don't see how a permanent guard could be considered a waste....


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## orange.paint

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The US never would have such a problem as there is a guard mounted on the tomb at all times.  Considering we pay for Skyhawks and Snowbirds, I don't see how a permanent guard could be considered a waste....


Excellent point,and an excellent argument.That would be a post any soldier would be honored to do.My point would be to put a Mountie on it along with the military for special occasions.

With all the funerals our country now has,our ceremonial drill which seemed to be lacking prior is now coming back in public view.As infanteer pointed out the Americans have troops posted to these positions.Maybe DND should start looking at dedicated drill and ceremonial teams for tasks such as this.Hence why I thought GGFG would be the key in.
(by the way excellent drill on Canada day,you guys looked real sharp).


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## Mike Baker

Heck, I would be a guard there for no charge, just so this despicable thing don't happen again. This clueless fellow would probally not be here if it wasn't for those brave men and women who gave their lives so we could live, not p*** all over their memorials.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

For once, the media has done the right thing and I take some comfort in the fact that this assh*le's photo is on the front page of the Citizen, beneath a banner headline reading "A National Disgrace". 

Have a look at the "Sound Off" comments at the bottom of the web page; many others feel as we do here.


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## LCIS-Tech

Someone should have grabbed that punk by the scruff of the neck and made him lick the monument clean....


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## GO!!!

I would not guard the Memorial with ceremonial guard, especially having borne witness to the gong show that exists at the governor generals residence, where the GGFGs require guarding themselves to prevent tourists from touching them and their weapons.

Make the guard a platoon of Cbt Arms troops in Cadpat, perhaps with an identifying armband. With a shift rotation, you could have 3-4 on duty 24hrs a day. Goodwill ambassadors and question answerers by day, idiot stomping ****kickers by night. I'd volunteer!

I echo the sentiment to the effect of how we spend far more on other things - like sending troops to do ceremonial guard at Buckingham palace, and hundred - man honor guards for generals - while leaving the War Memorial undefended.


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## paracowboy

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I would not guard the Memorial with ceremonial guard, especially having borne witness to the gong show that exists at the governor generals residence, where the GGFGs require guarding themselves to prevent tourists from touching them and their weapons.


 hence the ROEs. not ceremonial duties, these troops would be sentries.



> Make the guard a platoon of Cbt Arms troops in Cadpat, perhaps with an identifying armband. With a shift rotation, you could have 3-4 on duty 24hrs a day. Goodwill ambassadors and question answerers by day, idiot stomping ****kickers by night. I'd volunteer!


which is why I suggest the GGFG. Their Armoury is right down the street.


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## Kat Stevens

All the pictures taken that night should be printed in every paper, and shown on every news broadcast coast to coast to coast.  And that little spermburp needs a Lee-Enfield sword bayonet right up the chitlins.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

At the risk of ruining a good rant, and taking this off on a tangent:



> hence the ROEs. not ceremonial duties, these troops would be sentries.



Unfortunately, you're in to Aid to the Civil Power-type stuff here.  Legally, we couldn't actually mount a "real" guard (one with powers of arrest, ROE, etc.) without jumping through all sorts of legal hoops and constitutional issues.  That's why it's the _Ceremonial_ Guard.

We could mount a 24/7 "ceremonial" guard that just happened to have weapons and bayonets fixed...but I find that a bit American/Russian for my taste.

The Ottawa Police need to step up to the plate here, along with the RCMP; security is their responsibility and they need to be taking it seriously.


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## orange.paint

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I would not guard the Memorial with ceremonial guard, especially having borne witness to the gong show that exists at the governor generals residence, where the GGFGs require guarding themselves to prevent tourists from touching them and their weapons.
> 
> Make the guard a platoon of Cbt Arms troops in Cadpat, perhaps with an identifying armband. With a shift rotation, you could have 3-4 on duty 24hrs a day. Goodwill ambassadors and question answerers by day, idiot stomping ****kickers by night. I'd volunteer!
> 
> I echo the sentiment to the effect of how we spend far more on other things - like sending troops to do ceremonial guard at Buckingham palace, and hundred - man honor guards for generals - while leaving the War Memorial undefended.



yep although that would rock I can see the next headline in the Ottawa citizen  "HARPERS SS BEAT DOWN LOCAL TEENS."
As teddy said too much paper law crap to implement a Guard in down town Ottawa.

GGHG should be enough of a deterrant.


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## Kat Stevens

Easy. Designate the area as DND property, post "trespassers will be violated" signs around it, and call it an indefinite BDF exercise. Voila! Conditions met .  ;D


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## IrishCanuck

That's just awful... someone deserves a beat down.

The only way you will have effective deterrence is if their is in fact a "ceremonial guard".

There is too much space to cover in Ottawa for their to be a dedicated Ottawa police officer or RCMP officer at the memorial at all times. It simply won't happen. ( At least for longer than a temporary length anyway)


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## paracowboy

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> you're in to Aid to the Civil Power-type stuff here.  Legally, we couldn't actually mount a "real" guard (one with powers of arrest, ROE, etc.) without jumping through all sorts of legal hoops and constitutional issues.  That's why it's the _Ceremonial_ Guard.


hence the coordination I spoke of earlier. Legally, there has to be some precedent *somewhere*. And, if not, then we work with the system to produce one.



> We could mount a 24/7 "ceremonial" guard that just happened to have weapons and bayonets fixed...but I find that a bit American/Russian for my taste.


and if we don't have all "t"s crossed, and "i"s dotted, we have a legal/media/political nightmare. If Pte Troopie even lays a finger on John Q. Civvie-scumbag, then we have assault.



> The Ottawa Police need to step up to the plate here, along with the RCMP; security is their responsibility and they need to be taking it seriously.


they're busy trying to catch murderers, drug dealers, drunk drivers, and such. They have enough on their plate.


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## Gunner

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Easy. Designate the area as DND property, post "trespassers will be violated" signs around it, and call it an indefinite BDF exercise. Voila! Conditions met .  ;D



Kat, this would work (designating the National War Memorial as a DND property) under current legislation, no requirement for aid to lawful authority activities.

While I find this behavious disgusting, I am not yet ready to agree to a 24/7 military presence for all the reasons we discussed in the previous tomb of the unknown soldier thread.  Maybe we should be looking for retired cbt arms NCOs/WOs to form something similar to the UK's "Beefeaters" at the Tower of London.  Part Security/part tour guide.


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## career_radio-checker

I'm at the monument quite often. Its just a nice place to go and sit and people watch, have a sandwich, and enjoy the sun. Tourists are actually pleased to be able to approach and touch the tomb. It gives the monument a 'tangible' aspect that adds to the aura of the site. If you were there on Canada day you would have see the tomb covered with little paper Canada flags and it actually brought a tear to my eye. Somebody said there should be security there at least on Canada day, and there was. Three commissionaires were there. If there was to be security it should be off to the side and not directly on the monument platforms as this would deter people from getting close to the tomb and the monument itself and enjoying it fully. Trust me the vast 99.9999% of people respect the tomb. I even remember overhearing one dad tell his kids that they should never forget that they have the life they have today because people like the unknown soldier fought and died for their country. Now imagine the difference in impact that would have if your dad didn't say it two feet from the tomb.


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## GO!!!

After looking at that picture a little more closely, a few things became apparent.

1) Very short hair
2) Maroon shirt with yellow, unidentifiable crest on left breast
3) Short facial hair (perhaps indicating recently having gone on leave)

Maybe we are looking a little far away for a culprit here, when the problem could very well be closer to home. 

It would be a disgrace indeed if this idiot is a member.


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## Mike Baker

there is another thing that you all should notice, there seems to be two "spouts." If you look closely to the puddle there, you can see the other, indicating two people.


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## Sig_Des

Wow...this is disgusting.

I was downtown at the time, and it's probably a good thing I didn't see this.

Sadly, I can understand the police and security on Canada day missing this one, as it's incredibly busy, and they're looking to make sure people don't pass out drunk, get trampled, or fight.

I personally like the idea of an honor guard. The CG is in effect every summer, why not extend a small portion of it to guarding the WM ?

Another option would be to task it as a rotating duty around units in Ottawa?


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## Danjanou

GO!!! said:
			
		

> After looking at that picture a little more closely, a few things became apparent.
> 
> 1) Very short hair
> 2) Maroon shirt with yellow, unidentifiable crest on left breast
> 3) Short facial hair (perhaps indicating recently having gone on leave)
> 
> Maybe we are looking a little far away for a culprit here, when the problem could very well be closer to home.
> 
> It would be a disgrace indeed if this idiot is a member.



Much as I don't want to believe, you may be right. If true this will make for an intersting trial, not his  the other troopie who rips out his heart after finding this mouth breathing asshat.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

The "dude" also appears to have those trendy 'burns so common today, which does not suggest "soldier"...  The truth will come out, no doubt - having one's photo on the front page of a major paper doesn't lend itself to anonymity.


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## Haggis

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Another option would be to task it as a rotating duty around units in Ottawa?



In Ottawa today it's hard enough to find sufficient members of the Reg F/Class B/C to perform Standing Guard duties for the numerous dignitaries that frequent the NCR.  Recently, 33 CBG had an extremely difficult time getting enough Ottawa based troops together for a change of command (a ONE DAY event) due to summer taskings/ARC etc.  Same for the CLS change.  Troops were brought in from all over Ontario for that one, a ONE DAY affair.  Now you want to make it a 24/7/365 tasking?

Who pays for this "duty"?  Where do we find the lodging, rations, training, equipment?  How long before the Liberal Defence critic slams this as a waste of scarce manpower and resources and an insult to the abilities of the Ottawa Police?

Look, I know everyone's pissed off right now, but put this in perspective.  IF this photo hadn't been taken, IF the photographer wasn't a vet, would anyone know?  How many OTHER times has this happened with no photographer around?  No witnesses?  No indignant press?  Until today nobody knew this was happening or how often.  Maybe this once?  Maybe every Saturday night?  



			
				GO!!! said:
			
		

> It would be a disgrace indeed if this idiot is a member.



It would indeed!  But THAT, GO!!!, is exactly what the media who frequent this site will focus on.  If it had been just another street person.... well, who cares.


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## IrishCanuck

GO!!! said:
			
		

> After looking at that picture a little more closely, a few things became apparent.
> 
> 1) Very short hair
> 2) Maroon shirt with yellow, unidentifiable crest on left breast
> 3) Short facial hair (perhaps indicating recently having gone on leave)
> 
> Maybe we are looking a little far away for a culprit here, when the problem could very well be closer to home.
> 
> It would be a disgrace indeed if this idiot is a member.



Unlikely. 

The facial hair you are talking about appears to be a chin strap, a style which involves much effort and maintenance, probably not worth it for whatever short period of "leave' he may have had.

He's dressed in a more suburban rich kid look, ie. Hollister clothes etc  combined with his gelled hair and Nike Shocks shoes make me even more skeptical of him being in the CF.  I know im generalising, but I see alot more of these wanna be playboys around campus driving their daddy's cars then down at the armouries by Dow's Lake.


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## GO!!!

Haggis said:
			
		

> It would indeed!  But THAT, GO!!!, is exactly what the media who frequent this site will focus on.  If it had been just another street person.... well, who cares.



I realise that, but we stand to look even more foolish rallying the troops for a good 'ol witch huntin' and burnin' if it really turns out to be.

The sooner a name is attached to his face the better!


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## Kat Stevens

better yet, a tag attached to his toe.....I kid, I kid....maybe..... >


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## Gunner

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/07/03/pf-1666201.html



> PM says man urinating on National War Memorial on Canada Day ‘terrible’
> 
> OTTAWA (CP) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper expressed his disgust upon learning of a man urinating on the National War Memorial.
> 
> A veteran snapped a photo of a man relieving himself on the Ottawa monument on Canada Day.
> 
> Retired Major Michael Pilon says most people cheered and laughed when the photos were taken Saturday night.
> 
> In an interview with Ottawa radio station CFRA on Monday, Harper called it a "terrible thing to do."
> 
> The Royal Canadian Legion plans to use the photos to support its call for increased security at the monument.
> 
> Harper said he doesn't believe the incident is representative of how Canadians feel about the veterans.
> 
> "As you know often, people who get carried away do thoughtless things," Harper said. "Obviously, it's a terrible thing to do."
> 
> "Certainly my impression is it doesn't represent in any way the views of any segment of Canadian society," he said. "I think we all strongly honour our vets."
> 
> "I notice at all these ceremonies, the veterans always get the largest ovation of anybody, and I think that's how Canadians feel."
> 
> Ontario Tory MP Gord Brown and Conservative Lisa MacLeod, who sits in the Ontario legislature, have also voiced their disgust with the incident.


----------



## GAP

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> better yet, a tag attached to his toe.....I kid, I kid....maybe..... >



entertaining idea.... 8)

This would be a good time to bring back "stocks". Have it mounted so he faces the monument he defaced and low enough that anyone can give him a swift kick as they walk by.... >


----------



## medicineman

Or someone could do "The Mighty Ducks" thing to him - gun tape him in position somewhere then urinate all over him...

Just our luck of course, he might be into that sort of thing.

MM


----------



## Hot Lips

medicineman said:
			
		

> Or someone could do "The Mighty Ducks" thing to him - gun tape him in position somewhere then urinate all over him...
> 
> Just our luck of course, he might be into that sort of thing.
> 
> MM


LMAO...

MM...you do have a way with words   :rofl:

It really is unfortunate IMO that old fashion justice is a thing of the past...IMO I believe there would be less of these disgraceful things taking place if people knew someone would "speak" to you about it after the fact.

HL


----------



## Kat Stevens

These guys all need a behind the monument counselling session with my good friend Cpl Elgin.


----------



## orange.paint

The sad part is a loser like this will proably frame it to put on his wall.This is the type of youth out there today."a national disgrace" would be a title for these losers.

All in all the public will forget by next week after tomorrows discussion around the water cooler.And they will follow up in about 10 weeks with a small report under "Britney's new baby" or "Is prada that good."

I was one of the original posters saying we should have a ceremonial guard there,but the more I thought of it what could you really do legally? A group of civi idiots and you with your unloaded mag.They obviously don't care for those who died for our country how do we expect them to respect those who serve?

I believe this incident has fostered a sense of respect in a lot of the civilian population in Ottawa.After reading the comments on their webpage it showed plenty of people who just find this appalling,and demand respect to our fallen.My hat go off to them.

he inspired me to run a little further tonight.....man I hope I never meet that preppy assmunch.

As you know often, people who get carried away do thoughtless things," Harper said. "
I would replace thoughless with discusting,disrespectiful,EVIL, ..hence why Im not PM...or paffo.


maybe he will allow me to assemble a bunch of fit guys from the school to go to his trial.....(Ive been brewing over it all day can you tell!) 

Nelly Furtato is on TV now so I will go lighten my mood and watch her dance.


----------



## rick7475

Put a camera up. They do it at bank machines and stop lights.


----------



## rick7475

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> The sad part is a loser like this will proably frame it to put on his wall.This is the type of youth out there today."a national disgrace" would be a title for these losers.



Actually the sad part is because it was published by the media it will now end up on numerous websites depicting pictures of drunken or rowdy behaviour for the enlightenment of fans of that sort of thing.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> At the risk of ruining a good rant, and taking this off on a tangent:
> 
> Unfortunately, you're in to Aid to the Civil Power-type stuff here.  Legally, we couldn't actually mount a "real" guard (one with powers of arrest, ROE, etc.) without jumping through all sorts of legal hoops and constitutional issues.  That's why it's the _Ceremonial_ Guard.
> 
> We could mount a 24/7 "ceremonial" guard that just happened to have weapons and bayonets fixed...but I find that a bit American/Russian for my taste.
> 
> The Ottawa Police need to step up to the plate here, along with the RCMP; security is their responsibility and they need to be taking it seriously.



The Calgary Highlanders monument on old City Hall has been quietly rusting away for years. I recall that the RCAC monument in Worthington Park in Borden is also tarnished; seems that way across the country. I think the preservation of these memorials needs a serious rethink, in addition to just security.


----------



## tomahawk6

Mount a guard like we do at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Mount a guard like we do at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.



We shouldn't have to.


----------



## medicineman

The key here words being "shouldn`t" and "have to".

MM


----------



## brihard

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> (by the way excellent drill on Canada day,you guys looked real sharp).



Thank you. It was a good couple of parades, and the afternoon off was well needed.

Now regarding the issue at hand-

This is making it's way around shacks at the moment here at Carleton, and universally the reaction is profound disgust. Had any of us been near the memorial as this was happening rest assured it would have stopped- I would have gladly caught a charge for taking whatever measures necessary to stop it if things came to that, and not all of us were drinking much that night- we certainly would have been in good enough condition to do so.

Neither Ceremonial Guard nor the local units (GGFG & CH of O at Cartier, plus assorted reserve units across town) are in any shape to provide manpower for a full time guard You're looking at at least a section fo troops just for rotating sentry, plus svc/sppt. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take shifts, and would do that over Rideau Hall if it came to that, but the money and the troops aren't there. 

Let's look at it this way- assume a section,. plus leadership, plus support personnel, and you're looking at maybe a dozen people on daily. Add to that costs for food, transport, etc. etc. ad nauseum, and you're looking at over a half million a year. That's not to say that that isn't worth it; there was a great point earlier about the snowbirds and skyhawks, but it's still an expense to shoulder, plus a burden on local personnel. The same applies to having a permanent police presence.

I suspect that what we will see is an unofficial guard of the tomb a year from now- if I'm in Ottawa I'd gladly hang out there for a few hours on Canada Day evening to watch over it, and some of my buddies would too- some of them are GGFG during the year and will no doubt be back here next summer, so people will be available for a quiet, 'unofficial' sentry. A couple fit young guys (or ladies) in 'ARMY' shirts should suffice, and even in most cases a quiet polite word should do the trick. If anything were to get stupid the police would likely side with the bystanders who received trouble after insisting that people respect the monument by not pissing on it.

Now that that's all dispensed with, if I ever catch this goddamned stain on our country I'll probably pound the piss out of him. I don't consider this to be a commentary on society as a whole, but the fact that no-one stepped up to stop them sickens me. I'm friggin' LIVID about this- 'disgrace' is not a strong enough word for it. Fortunately, the little shit photographs well enough that hopefully the name will be available online within another week or so.

We won't likely see anything official on this - though perhaps a Canada-Day only cenotaph guard may happen - but I'm sure I'm not the only pissed off troop here in Ottawa who would be willing to step up to the plate next year.


----------



## tomahawk6

A lone sentry 24/7 rotated every 30 minutes should be doable.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Or we can stop giving this horrible little man the attention he was craving when he did it...It's been there since 1939 and this is a hopefully rare event. Urine dries quickly.

I do think the current laws on vandalism - especially stuff like grave desecration - don't go far enough. Perhaps with a majority next time around the government can do something about that.  In Calgary, we just had some dumbass spraypaint over a 100 year old billboard painted on the side of a historic building - there was much disgust here over that as well.

In the meantime, I'm a bit disappointed in the press for indulging this fellow's need for attention - unless of course it leads to his identification. I'd honestly not be sorry to hear he had been found floating in the Rideau Canal, but suggesting a 24 hour guard isn't really sensible thinking. Nor is cutting off access to the monument. I was really humbled on my two trips to Ottawa to be able to stand and touch the Unknown Soldier's sarcophogus and walk up to the monument. There is far more benefit in letting thousands or millions of people do that, than living in fear some kid might pee on it.  To be blunt, the pigeons crap on it every day. But the idea of a security camera is also a good one. 

I do hope whomever knows him outs him to that same press and restores what little faith in them I can muster these days.


----------



## tomahawk6

The changing of the guard would be a memorable tourist destination.


----------



## brihard

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Or we can stop giving this horrible little man the attention he was craving when he did it...It's been there since 1939 and this is a hopefully rare event. Urine dries quickly.
> 
> I do think the current laws on vandalism - especially stuff like grave desecration - don't go far enough. Perhaps with a majority next time around the government can do something about that.  In Calgary, we just had some dumbass spraypaint over a 100 year old billboard painted on the side of a historic building - there was much disgust here over that as well.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm a bit disappointed in the press for indulging this fellow's need for attention - unless of course it leads to his identification. I'd honestly not be sorry to hear he had been found floating in the Rideau Canal, but suggesting a 24 hour guard isn't really sensible thinking. Nor is cutting off access to the monument. I was really humbled on my two trips to Ottawa to be able to stand and touch the Unknown Soldier's sarcophogus and walk up to the monument. There is far more benefit in letting thousands or millions of people do that, than living in fear some kid might pee on it.  To be blunt, the pigeons crap on it every day. But the idea of a security camera is also a good one.
> 
> I do hope whomever knows him outs him to that same press and restores what little faith in them I can muster these days.



Oh, don't get me wrong- I'm fully for public access to the memorial. Pretty much any time I'm heading up Elgin I'll stop at the tomb for a minute,a nd it wasn't unusual on Canada day to see people take a knee and put their hand on the corner fo the tomb that was just within reach beyond the rope fence. The flags were very moving as well. I wouldn't have it any other way; the vast majority, the respectful public, should have access to the tomb. But on special days like Canada Day there should be someone looking after it, too.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Tomahawk - I just don't think it's our way.  We tamed the west with red serge and treaties instead of six shooters.  The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary were the last police in North America not to carry sidearms. Canada has never been as authoritarian as other nations. I just don't think Canadian sensibiltiies would like the idea of armed soldiers there no matter how noble the cause. I'm not so sure they are wrong. As Brihard said very well, it's a great thing to be able to just walk up and pay one's respects without being under the eye of an armed guard. 

And really, you could do the job with two of those guys from the Walmart parking lot for the cost of minimum wage and a couple of high-visibility vests. It wouldn't lessen the import of the monument or tomb - that importance is what people make of it for themselves, in the end. I'm not convinced it is necessary. We had our Regimental Monument in front of our armoury defaced a couple of years ago by a spraycan vandal. It was a one time thing. Might probably happen again, but had we mounted guard for the last two years, it would have been a lot of money we could have been putting to better use.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

> The changing of the guard would be a memorable tourist destination.



Unfortunately (IMHO, of course), such is not in keeping with Canadian tradition, nor (as Brihard points out) is it a viable proposition for a variety of reasons.  As Michael points out, part of the Memorial's mystique is that it allows anyone to walk up - at any time - to ponder what our forefathers accomplished and the price they paid.  I would hate to see a situation where that wasn't possible.


----------



## paracowboy

I don't see why we can't have one sentry on, in CADPAT, with comms to LEO. We don't need a section with weapons. One troop with a cell phone. They wouldn't even have to go to the Armoury first. Simply show up 10 minutes prior to your hand-over. If, at no other times than during major public events that could result in drunken morons behaving like drunken morons. Failing that, why not a commissionare?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Failing that, why not a commissionare?



Where would he plug his TV in?


----------



## Franko

Well it hit the local A Channel in Ottawa....with a sound bite of the PM, an interview with a vet, and of course the necessary interviews with tourists.

The news crew found broken beer bottles around it this afternoon as well

*3 pers did it*...and the back of a head and his dress looks *really* familiar.

I'll be asking some quiet questions tomorrow at PT.

Regards


----------



## orange.paint

reccebydeath you have a pic of the rest of the individuals?


----------



## GO!!!

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I don't see why we can't have one sentry on, in CADPAT, with comms to LEO. We don't need a section with weapons. One troop with a cell phone. They wouldn't even have to go to the Armoury first. Simply show up 10 minutes prior to your hand-over. If, at no other times than during major public events that could result in drunken morons behaving like drunken morons. Failing that, why not a commissionare?



+1.

How much have we spent on the change of command parades? Palace Guard? The globe trotting governor general? The CISM golf team? (yes, there is one)

There is ONE Unknown soldier memorial, at ONE location in all of Canada to commend every Canadian soldier ever killed in the line of duty - and somehow the security of this memorial should fall under the fiscal axe? 

Give me a break. 

We pi$$ away fifty times the sum required to secure that site for a year every day - and it is far more important than the above luxuries.


----------



## Haggis

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Well it hit the local A Channel in Ottawa....with a sound bite of the PM, an interview with a vet, and of course the necessary interviews with tourists.



Pee-boy made Global National as well.  Notice how you didn't see his dick in the photo?  Must've been pretty small! >


----------



## p_imbeault

Haggis said:
			
		

> Pee-boy made Global National as well.  Notice how you didn't see his dick in the photo?  Must've been pretty small! >


If he had one  ;D


----------



## Bomber

The French have a nice one, at the bottom of the Arc de Triumph, there is a tomb of an unknown soldier, but it has the 1 foot high brass rail running all around it, not enough to stop people, but enough to make them think.  You are still able to and welcome to touch the monument, but it gives people a sense of importance of the ground.  Tonight on the news there was a woman complaining about the lack of respect for the monumnet, then she sat her kids on the tomb to get a picture of them with the memorial in the background.  It then showed a kid on a rich kid mountain bike using the area like a skate park.  I am all for a sentry, even if it means grounding a siungle snowbird'd worth of fuel or something.  I have a strong feeling that next Canada Day there will be a much stronger undercover presence than a retired dental major with a camera.  That guy is lucky that his teeth aren;t in a pile next to his little pricks puddle.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

GO!!! said:
			
		

> +1.
> 
> How much have we spent on the change of command parades? Palace Guard? The globe trotting governor general? The CISM golf team? (yes, there is one)
> 
> There is ONE Unknown soldier memorial, at ONE location in all of Canada to commend every Canadian soldier ever killed in the line of duty - and somehow the security of this memorial should fall under the fiscal axe?
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> We pi$$ away fifty times the sum required to secure that site for a year every day - and it is far more important than the above luxuries.



There are memorials across the country, too, as mentioned in my post. That's a huge ball of wax to open - I don't think we need to guard every Sherman Tank from coast to coast, but I'd like to see some money freed up to at least polish the brass letters on the plaques.

As for Ottawa - how much of a guard is enough?  Three hooligans can take a leak and escape before one guy in CADPAT could do anything about it (which would be what - getting on the cel phone and calling the police?) Forget about the Commissionaire - a 56 year old man confronting three drunk kids is a disaster waiting to happen.

And this is presuming there is a recurring problem here. It was one incident on an insanely busy day in Ottawa.  If some retired major snapping photos amidst a sizable crowd (?) didn't deter these punks, how many Commissionaires or CADPATed troops would it take?


----------



## Bill Smy

GO is correct in his reply::- this man should be identified, with his address. Then let the hazing begin. Start with school classes turning up at his front door asking "Why?'; ask the parents what they did which would produce a son who would do something like this; picket his place of employment. In other words, make his life miserable.


----------



## Franko

No....no pictures from any site yet...

I'll take a closer look...

Regards


----------



## George Wallace

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> GO is correct in his reply::- this man should be identified, with his address. Then let the hazing begin. Start with school classes turning up at his front door asking "Why?'; ask the parents what they did which would produce a son who would do something like this; picket his place of employment. In other words, make his life miserable.



Interesting point.  Anyone wonder what this twits mother thinks of seeing her son on the front pages doing this?  This guy is going to have a very miserable time.  Of course, his parents may not give a 'rats ass' and then that reflects on them too.  

Lots of press on this one....really hard to remain anonymous now.


----------



## brihard

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Well it hit the local A Channel in Ottawa....with a sound bite of the PM, an interview with a vet, and of course the necessary interviews with tourists.
> 
> The news crew found broken beer bottles around it this afternoon as well
> 
> *3 pers did it*...and the back of a head and his dress looks *really* familiar.
> 
> I'll be asking some quiet questions tomorrow at PT.
> 
> Regards



Keep us advised on that should anything turn up, eh?

It's disgusting that anyone would do that, but the possibility of this being one -or more- of our own (in the Robert Heinlein sense, not out of any feelings of cameraderie) is beyond the pale...


----------



## Franko

Just did a quick search of National papers and the like...none of the others were up, I guess A Channel is the only one that got 'em.

Like I said, he looks familiar....but I'm not certain. Tapered haircut...dark hair, polo shirt....pretty vague I know...just something a bit familiar.

I'll keep you posted.

Regards


----------



## The Bread Guy

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/060703/n070341A.html

*PM says man urinating on National War Memorial on Canada Day 'terrible' * Canadian Press, 3 Jul 06
  
''OTTAWA (CP) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper expressed his disgust upon learning of a man urinating on the National War Memorial. 

A veteran snapped photos of the man relieving himself on the Ottawa monument on Canada Day. 

Retired Major Michael Pilon says most people cheered and laughed when the photos were taken Saturday night. 

In an interview with Ottawa radio station CFRA on Monday,* Harper called it a "terrible thing to do." * 

*Ottawa Police Detective Mike Walker said police have contacted Pilon and will ensure charges are laid. 

The Royal Canadian Legion plans to use the photos to support its call for increased security at the monument. * 

Harper said he doesn't believe the incident is representative of how Canadians feel about the veterans. 

"As you know often, people who get carried away do thoughtless things," Harper said. "Obviously, it's a terrible thing to do." 

"Certainly my impression is it doesn't represent in any way the views of any segment of Canadian society," he said. "I think we all strongly honour our vets." 

"I notice at all these ceremonies, the veterans always get the largest ovation of anybody, and I think that's how Canadians feel." 

Ontario Tory MP Gord Brown and Conservative Lisa MacLeod, who sits in the Ontario legislature, have also voiced their disgust with the incident. 

*The suspects can be charged with mischief for urinating in public.* ''


----------



## George Wallace

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Like I said, he looks familiar....but I'm not certain. Tapered haircut...dark hair, polo shirt....pretty vague I know...just something a bit familiar.



Lots of 'short hairs' in Ottawa.  Not all are, or have ever been, in the CF in any way, shape or form.

Could be a rich preppy from 'anytown' USA/Canada.



Or perhaps a not so rich 'preppy'.  Could have been anyone.


----------



## Remius

Even if we can't/won't set up a permanent guard it wouldn't be hard to get volunteers out for Canada day.  On rememberance day soldiers volunteer to come out for the parades so it wouldn't be inconceivable that some would come out to watch over the cenotaph on Canada day.

There were two military displays set up on July 1st.  One at Major's hill park the other in Gatineau at Jacques Cartier park, there was at least 4 or 5 soldiers manning these displays for most of the day.  So why not have a similar type display at near the Cenotaph.  Maybe in conjunction with Veteran's affairs.  People could meet vets and soldiers near the war monument during the day and the troops could stay on through the evening ensuring the security of the Cenotaph.

This wouldn't cost a lot and would be small effort that could dissuade this kind of behaviour at the Cenotaph.


----------



## brihard

Crantor said:
			
		

> Even if we can't/won't set up a permanent guard it wouldn't be hard to get volunteers out for Canada day.  On rememberance day soldiers volunteer to come out for the parades so it wouldn't be inconceivable that some would come out to watch over the cenotaph on Canada day.
> 
> There were two military displays set up on July 1st.  One at Major's hill park the other in Gatineau at Jacques Cartier park, there was at least 4 or 5 soldiers manning these displays for most of the day.  So why not have a similar type display at near the Cenotaph.  Maybe in conjunction with Veteran's affairs.  People could meet vets and soldiers near the war monument during the day and the troops could stay on through the evening ensuring the security of the Cenotaph.
> 
> This wouldn't cost a lot and would be small effort that could dissuade this kind of behaviour at the Cenotaph.



The event in the news happened at about 11 at night- outside 'working hours', as it were. As I mentioned, though, I've little doubt that a few people will be quietly keeping an eye on it next year.


----------



## George Wallace

Crantor said:
			
		

> There were two military displays set up on July 1st.  One at Major's hill park the other in Gatineau at Jacques Cartier park, there was at least 4 or 5 soldiers manning these displays for most of the day.  So why not have a similar type display at near the Cenotaph.  Maybe in conjunction with Veteran's affairs.  People could meet vets and soldiers near the war monument during the day and the troops could stay on through the evening ensuring the security of the Cenotaph.
> 
> This wouldn't cost a lot and would be small effort that could dissuade this kind of behaviour at the Cenotaph.



Like Communism, this all sounds good on paper.  Now Crantor, let's put you into the boots of one of the guys working at one of these displays all day, getting up at zero dark thirty, getting all your uniforms and kit and vehicles ready, moving to the site of the display, setting up your display, working all day answering similar questions as those posed here on army.ca live and in the flesh, tearing down that display at the end of the day, moving all the equipment and vehicles back to a safe storage area, going to your lodging and taking off your uniform and having a shower, and then..........dress and go out and guard the War Memorial for the whole night........   I hope you see the fallacies in your plan.  Perhaps you'd like to give it a try?


----------



## Remius

Well, you could easily set up shifts.


----------



## Remius

And yes I would give it a try.


----------



## p_imbeault

Showed all the ****-heads on the CBC tonight, hope they all get whats coming to them.


----------



## brihard

Anyone got a link to photos of the others?


----------



## orange.paint

George forgot all the hot chicks attention.Post a couple young single guys there,imagine the booty they get after working hours!Guard in scarlets at the tomb,good for publicity,the tombs protection AND the troops giving their time.


----------



## brihard

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> George forgot all the hot chicks attention.Post a couple young single guys there,imagine the booty they get after working hours!Guard in scarlets at the tomb,goof for publicity,the tombs protection AND the troops giving their time.



The attention is overrated. Mostly what we get are middle aged tourists trying to make us grin. The occasional gorgeous woman is nice, but by and large the spectators aren't eye candy.  :'(

There are some, though...


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

I think we all want a military guard of some sort so we can personally lay down the punishment but I have an idea that may work just as well. As previously mentioned, make the site DND property but still accesible to the general public. 

Post cameras covering every angle and signs that say "You are being monitored on closed circuit cameras at a federal site", then you pay some secuirity company $12/hour to have a security guard (with a hotline to the local po po) monitor the site 24/7. Anyone caught defacing the site faces automatic federal charges, and military members can borrow a copy of the tape to lay down their own version of justice.


----------



## George Wallace

SHELLDRAKE

Do you propose the same be done at the Peacekeeper Memorial, and several of the other Memorials around that area, all military related?


----------



## Devlin

Wow this very disturbing to make an understatement. Last year during Stalwart Guardian part of my "job" ( and I use the term job loosely) was to run video tapes into Ottawa for editing. During one such run my co-driver (yes I had one, yes I know there were areas understaffed - let's not get into that can of worms) we had to wait for a few hours for the tapes to get completed. The troop with me had never been to Ottawa so we went down to the memorials, tomb of the unknown soldier, parliment hill, etc.... you get the idea. 

We spent quite a bit of time at the tomb and got stopped by an unending line of tourists for pictures and questions.

Hope this person get's what's coming to them, karma can be a real bitch some days...


----------



## chrisf

A small thought...

Much if not all of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment spent this Canada day in France for the 90th anniversary of the battle of Beaumont Hamel, July 1st is a day of rather sombre rememberance as well as celebration in Newfoundland... if manning is the question, shouldn't be hard to find enough pers in the RNFLDR willing to gaurd the monument on July 1st...


----------



## George Wallace

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> George forgot all the hot chicks attention.Post a couple young single guys there,imagine the booty they get after working hours!Guard in scarlets at the tomb,good for publicity,the tombs protection AND the troops giving their time.


Not quite like the CDS dropping in and having chat over coffee with you.....but....


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

If you have ever been to any city in England you most likely noticed a plethora of cameras everywhere. I don't think Canadian cities should go this way but I do feel that our military sites such as the war memorial, peacekeeping memorial and even the national war cemetary should be "monitored" and any
vandalism be treated with a harsher punishment than our "justice" system currently dishes out.

 In my mind, its the least we can do for those that gave their all.


----------



## George Wallace

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> A small thought...
> 
> Much if not all of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment spent this Canada day in France for the 90th anniversary of the battle of Beaumont Hamel, July 1st is a day of rather sombre rememberance as well as celebration in Newfoundland... if manning is the question, shouldn't be hard to find enough pers in the RNFLDR willing to gaurd the monument on July 1st...



An interesting proposal for an 'annual vigil' to be set up by the CF and RNR for this occasion.


----------



## GAP

With all the controversy this is stirring up, watch some bubble-head decide to equal or top it in the next short while....might be worth keeping an eye open.


----------



## George Wallace

SHELLDRAKE

Our Judicial System is 'Soft'.  They don't have the will, nor the gonads to enforce any such sentences.  Stop and look who most of these Judicial members are.  How many have any inkling of what the military is, or what Canada's military history is?  They are part of the problem, not the solution, at the present time.


----------



## orange.paint

Or the grandkids of the first 500.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I reallly hope pictures of all 3 assholes are published along with their names.

Obviously the police need to tread carefully because if their names and pictures ARE released it's going to be a witch hunt and their lives will be in danger or at the very least their going to get their face smashed in.  But hey, to that I say f*ck them if they can't take a joke 

If they ARE actually soldiers or whatever, well I can't see them enjoying much of anything for a while.

With regards to placing a guard or security I don't like that idea.  Placing soldiers around there is only going to draw the attention of assholes wanting to protest or people wanting to get on the news or someone wanting to make a sceen.  And hey what makes for a better terrorist target than soldiers guarding the unknown soldiers tomb?

Throw up some security cameras. Don't make a big deal about it. If someone does something stupid at the tomb then you hopelly have them on tape and you can charge their ass with little or no fan fair, the oppisite of what they probably want.


----------



## orange.paint

Public mischief is what they are most likely to be charged with says CTV news.
I got charged as a youth for mischief which caused me to have to write a apology letter to a certain group and that was it.This is horse****.

I guess he hasn't turned himself in yet.To weak to even admit hes a idiot.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

What foolishness.

Maybe sentenced to scrubbing the monument with a tooth brush each Remembrance day, while vets watch and guide his work.

I can hear them now....not so fast laddie you missed a spot, thats it put your heart into it.

edit typo


----------



## career_radio-checker

I tried doing a google on the defacing of the war memorial and instead came up with list of instances in other countries where defacers were arrested and charged. Its interesting to see how desecrating a monument in some countries is a crime by itself.

France -- "defacing monument in concerted action," an offense punishable by a five-year sentence and a 75,000 fine. 
http://www.rickross.com/reference/skinheads/skinheads40.html

Japan -- Man given 32 months for vandalizing Hiroshima A-bomb monument
http://www.crisscross.com/jp/news/353265

USA -- Defacing a state monument. (no detailed punishment but its a crime on its own)
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.48.110

Australia -- The new section enables the court that convicts a person of an offence under proposed section 8 to order the payment of compensation for damage caused to a shrine, monument or statue located in a public place, including a war memorial. The maximum compensation that can be ordered to be paid is an amount equal to 20 penalty units (currently $2200). 
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/0/2C1C7404F7E330C3CA2568D30018D7C8?Open&shownotes

A Realist's Utopia -- A punch in the throat
www.army.ca   

I'd like to know what they do in Israel, China or Russia... life sentence anyone?


----------



## paffomaybe

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I'd like to know what they do in Israel, China or Russia... life sentence anyone?



http://www.duihua.org/press/media/nytimes20060223.htm



> Man Freed After Years in Jail for Mao Insult
> By JIM YARDLEY
> The New York Times
> February 23, 2006
> 
> BEIJING, Feb. 22 — A Chinese journalist was freed Wednesday after spending nearly *17 years in prison* for splattering paint on a portrait of Mao during the 1989 pro-democracy protests in Tiananmen Square, a family member and a human rights advocate said.
> 
> The journalist, Yu Dongyue, now 38, and two friends hurled eggs filled with red paint at the famous painting of Mao, which still stares at Tiananmen Square from across the street, where it hangs above the entrance to the Forbidden City. Mr. Yu and his family are expected to reunite in Hunan Province on Thursday, but his younger brother said the family was deeply concerned about Mr. Yu's mental health.
> 
> "He no longer recognizes me," said Yu Xiyue, the brother, who made a prison visit last year. In 2004, Reporters Without Borders, the journalism advocacy group, said Mr. Yu had gone insane as a result of torture in prison.
> 
> Human rights groups have long made Mr. Yu's release a priority. China once made it a practice to release a prominent prisoner in advance of an important state visit, and President Hu Jintao is to visit the United States in April.
> 
> But John Kamm, the human rights campaigner who long lobbied on behalf of Mr. Yu, stopped short of giving China credit for leniency. He said Mr. Yu's sentence, which was originally 20 years but was reduced twice, concluded on Tuesday.
> 
> "It's an early release only in the sense that he was originally sentenced to 20 years," said Mr. Kamm, whose San Francisco-based Dui Hua Foundation serves as an advocate for the release of Chinese political prisoners. "Frankly, I was hoping they would commute. In my opinion, this is a fairly minor gesture, if one at all."
> 
> Mr. Kamm said Mr. Yu's return to society would be tightly restricted, as is the case with all freed political prisoners. He will not have any political rights and will be forbidden to work at a university or any state-owned enterprise. He is also prohibited from speaking to news organizations.
> 
> "He will be, for the rest of his life, a targeted person," Mr. Kamm said.
> 
> Mr. Yu had worked as a reporter and art critic for Liuyang News, a local paper in Hunan. In 2004, Lu Decheng, one of the two friends arrested with Mr. Yu, visited him in prison and told Radio Free Asia that he was "barely recognizable."
> 
> Mr. Yu had "a totally dull look in his eyes, kept repeating words over and over as if he were chanting a mantra," Mr. Lu said, adding: *"He had a big scar on the right side of his head. A fellow prisoner said Yu had been tied to an electricity pole and left out in the hot sun for several days. He was also kept in solitary confinement for two years, and that was what broke him."*
> 
> Unlike Mr. Yu, both Mr. Lu and the third man, Yu Zhijian, were imprisoned but later paroled. Mr. Lu, who fled China in 2004, is now in Thailand awaiting final approval for resettlement in Canada, Mr. Kamm said. Yu Zhijian was reportedly rearrested this month as part of a police roundup of dissidents conducting a hunger strike.
> 
> (c) New York Times 2006


----------



## orange.paint

Interesting to see the punishment from China, but lets not even compare Yu Dongyue who was protesting for democracy to these idoits.Maybe since Mr Yu Dongyue wishes to come to Canada we can send our ***holes to China.Sort of a exchange program if you will.


----------



## Jantor

Nice.
And when working in one of the Peoples rice paddies, up to their hips in goo, they can go pee when ever they want


----------



## mosquito

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The US never would have such a problem as there is a guard mounted on the tomb at all times.  Considering we pay for Skyhawks and Snowbirds, I don't see how a permanent guard could be considered a waste....



We live in Canada and should not have to worry about things like this or commit our precious few troops to a task such as this.  We should have a law with some teeth to deter people from such disrespectful and disgusting activities - no matter what mental condition they are in.  Lets attach some digger time and "visible" community service (like scrubbing down the entire monument" to crap like this and let the cops deal with a jerk like this.


----------



## big bad john

I would not want to be any of these young men with the national exposure that this is getting.  It is the lead story in the Canada section of Google News this morning.


----------



## Hockeycaper

This act is absolutely disgusting. Once they are caught and charged they should be sent to a Veteran hospitals and allowed to speak to our vets and maybe they will begin to understand why this monument is so important to all of us, military and civilian. It is a sad day and my outlook on the youth of Canada becomes more and more depressing. Anyone looking for pictures, check out the Ottawa Sun web page as they have one really good picture. Also the Ottawa Citizen has it on the front page, but I am unable to open their web page...I am sure they will have more pictures.


----------



## Remius

http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=1&nid=40599

Other radio stations this morning have reported that people who know one or some of the individuals have come forward to identify them.(unconfirmed reports though)

God help them.


----------



## Edward Campbell

> "Certainly my impression is it doesn't represent in any way the views of any segment of Canadian society," he said. "I think we all strongly honour our vets."
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper on CFRA on Monday
> http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=243518cf-e8fc-4a2a-b11f-4bb4dfa7abf8&k=76055



With all respect to Prime Minister Harper and with no slight to any veteran, the National War Memorial is not about veterans: it is abut our war dead, who, by a legislative quirk are (mostly) not necessarily veterans.

The fact is that for most of the 20th century one became a ‘veteran’ by surviving the war plus having spent some time (often very little) in an _operational zone_ or some such thing.  Most of our war dead _’failed’_ the first test.

The rule may (should) have changed so that war widows, for example, are entitled to similar benefits which accrue to spouses of ‘normal’ veterans and which remain with veterans’ widows – that was not the case until as late as 2003.  The 21st century is starting to look rather like the 19th – featuring a series of small ‘wars’ rather than a few global conflagrations like 1914/18 and 1939/45.  It may well be that many – most? – CF members will be ‘veterans’ and some (hopefully few) of those veterans, still in uniform, will be killed in action.  They (their widows, anyway) ought, it seems to me, to ‘benefit’ from both the war-widow’s pension (still niggardly, I think) and any applicable _survivor’s benefits_ coming from DVA.



> *All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their time.*
> _Ecclesiasticus 44:7_



Nothing excuses this act but I think these young men, rather than most Army.ca members, are representative of our country - they are _"the nation's faith, hope and future"_ as my first platoon sergeant used to (sadly and resignedly) refer to us fresh faced 18 year olds in woolly battle dress and pebbled boots.  Sadly, they are unlikely to benefit from the steady hand of men like him.


----------



## cplcaldwell

CF guard.

RCMP posted to the monument.

Ottawa Police should patrol.

Really.

Pretty sad actually, and a sad comment on Canadians. *Off the thousands of people expressing outrage, snapping pictures and forwarding them to police, did it occur to any of these people, go grab the sonofabitch by the scruff and turf him out into the street*

We have become a sad bunch, when even the War Memorial is considered someone else's business. I would suggest that if anyone within 100m of this silliness _had any sense _ the matter would not require any referral to the police, except for perhaps an inquiry as to why a drunken man was found, covered in urine, penis in hand lying in the middle of Elgin Street with several contusions about the facial area.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Because this is Canada, and statue pissers caught dick handed have rights. :


----------



## Hot Lips

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Because this is Canada, and statue pissers caught dick handed have rights. :


LMAO...omg Kat

Indeed, our laws do protect those that commit...that's why Carla Holmoka has a law degree and is bilingual

HL


----------



## Shec

As referenced above,  and for what its worth,  I vote "YES" to the idea of mounting a sentry over our tomb for the Unknown Soldier much like the Americans have at Arlington.   I would like to think it could be incorporated into the Changing of the Guard ceremony.

I take some small  comfort in the fact that, from the photo in the first post on this thread, it is probably dripping down onto the schmuck's feet.  And since that would physically soil the filthy pig I suggest that, if caught, he and his buddies be given a regimental shower.

I too agree with Cdn. Royal about making the culprits do community service at a Veteran's hospital. Cleaning the toilets and shining the bedpans at the Perley Rideau Veteran's Health Centre until the 90th anniversary of the end of WW1 would be just the ticket


----------



## George Wallace

More photos of different people in other papers:

The Ottawa Sun    http://www.ottawasun.com/

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/OttawaAndRegion/2006/07/04/1666887-sun.html

War memorial now police 'priority'  http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=16119704-3246-4b29-95b8-90f931da50a0&k=97509

Still a hot topic in Ottawa media.


----------



## geo

from what I understand, we have "tons" of partly trained recruits in PAT platoons across the country at various bases, schools, units.

Use these guys,  quartered at the GGFG Cartier square armoury.

Heck, they're being paid to sit around..... give em something useful to do.... IMHO!


----------



## Haggis

cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> Pretty sad actually, and a sad comment on Canadians. *Off the thousands of people expressing outrage, snapping pictures and forwarding them to police, did it occur to any of these people, go grab the sonofabitch by the scruff and turf him out into the street*
> 
> We have become a sad nation, when even the War Memorial is considered someone else's business. I would suggest that if anyone within 100m of this silliness _had any sense _ the matter would not require any referral to the police, except for perhaps an inquiry as to why a drunken man was found, covered in urine, penis in hand lying in the middle of Elgin Street with several contusions about the facial area.



And the "citizens" who participated in this act of vigilante justice would face far harsher penalties and public condemnation than Pee Boy (and his fellow flaccid friends) will ever see.


----------



## George Wallace

geo said:
			
		

> from what I understand, we have "tons" of partly trained recruits in PAT platoons across the country at various bases, schools, units.
> 
> Use these guys,  quartered at the GGFG Cartier square armoury.
> 
> Heck, they're being paid to sit around..... give em something useful to do.... IMHO!



I seriously don't think that this would be very effective.  What degree of knowledge, discipline, and drill would these guys have?  In the majority of cases, except for OTs, not too much I would guess.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I seriously don't think that this would be very effective.  What degree of knowledge, discipline, and drill would these guys have?  In the majority of cases, except for OTs, not too much I would guess.



Precisely.

I still think those Walmart dudes in safety vests would be an adequate deterrent to minor acts of indecency.

George, interesting links, but why do the press insist on calling them "men"?

Now's the time for them to prove it. Holiday is over, plenty of opportunity to walk into the nearest police station, confess, and issue a public apology.

Kudos to the major, by the way, for getting those pics in the first place. That last one posted looked like the major even said something like "hey, turn around" to get a good full face shot.

And kudos to the press for giving this some well-appreciated attention.


----------



## George Wallace

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> George, interesting links, but why do the press insist on calling them "men"?



I think the answer to that is so as not to call them 'innocent children'.  These were 'young' men who should have known better and be held accountable for their actions.  If you take the War Memorial and Tomb of the Unknown Soldier out of the equation, we still have young men urinating in public.  

There were Blue Rockets in the near proximity of the War Memorial, up near Parliament Hill, and also a park with lots of bushes across the street from the Memorial.  These guys made a very poor choice, no matter how one looks at it.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Well, if by 6pm Ottawa time they've done the right thing and confessed, and an apology is forthcoming, I'll gladly bestow them that title.

Will be very embarrassing to hear they got turned in by their parents, on the other hand.


----------



## GUNS

They should be made to clean the Memorial with a toothbrush with Veterians standing watch on them. 

It was great that the retired Major was there to catch them with his camera. He must not have been in the Combat Arm of the CF's.

If he was, he would have done more than take pictures.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

GUNS said:
			
		

> They should be made to clean the Memorial with a toothbrush with Veterians standing watch on them.
> 
> It was great that the retired Major was there to catch them with his camera. He must not have been in the Combat Arm of the CF's.
> 
> If he was, he would have done more than take pictures.



You think a dentist is unable to lay a hurting on someone? He just didn't have his chair with him, is all. He'd probably like your toothbrush idea, though. ;D


----------



## George Wallace

I think that timeless punishment of cleaning the Parade Square with a toothbrush would be an appropriate punishment.  It would give them several dozen days to reflect on their actions and public humiliation.  Not only that, but it would give the memorial a good cleaning, right into its' tinyest nooks and crannies.


----------



## MPIKE

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> There are memorials across the country, too, as mentioned in my post. That's a huge ball of wax to open - I don't think we need to guard every Sherman Tank from coast to coast, but I'd like to see some money freed up to at least polish the brass letters on the plaques.



Michael,
It would seem that the government has a program in place now for restoration efforts. There are some conditions set in place to qualify but it would probably take care of your cenotaph.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=memorials/cenotaph
Cheers


----------



## Michael Dorosh

PIKER said:
			
		

> Michael,
> It would seem that the government has a program in place now for restoration efforts. There are some conditions set in place to qualify but it would probably take care of your cenotaph.
> http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=memorials/cenotaph
> Cheers



I'll contact them ... thanks for that. I can think of a few monuments that have been neglected; I'm sure we all can.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

if nothing else if and when they find the person in the pciture, he should be made to disinfect the area and clean the area up while in the heat of the day as part of his punishment. Let the media piblish those pics and his name on the front page or page 3 .
that  would be a fair punishment.

a change of the guard routine like the US army  would be cool but Reg F and Res troops are kind of busy  with all the normal summer taskings and other parades and courses and missions etc. would be cool to watch, some day I will have to go see the change of the guard on the hill. i have never seen it , my drill was never good enough to even think about it. lol


----------



## MOOXE

Posting sentries is the extreme answer, when an extreme answer is not needed. Its not the fault that no sentries were posted, its more of a lack of understanding on thier part. Sentries would not educate this type of people, they would only keep them away and ignorant of the memorials purpose.


----------



## career_radio-checker

I'm surprised no one has made a poll for this thread yet (I haven't figured out how). Say:

1. I would favour a 24/7 Reg force / Res force sentry.

2. I would favour a Reg force / Res force sentry during busy summer months.

3. I would favour a police guard.

4. I would favour a camera surveillance system

5. I would favour a Commissionaire presence (cable TV to be installed   )

6. I would favour a plain clothed guard with a 'hit me' vest

7. I would favour no guard at all


----------



## geo

given the nature of our weather, these acts are most prone to happen during the May to Oct period. While I am certain that it would be possible to schedule a rotation schedule of personnel on Class A, it will always become a matter of $$$.  Who is going to pay for it?.

To all our chagrin, it ain't going to happen anytime soon.


----------



## manhole

Disgusting!   These young men have indeed shown the nation their "short-comings" (both physically and mentally).     That being said, please do not make excuses for them.   How can we say "they don't understand" and "we don't teach enough military history"?   There is NO excuse for that behaviour.   Most of us have been "under the influence" at one time or another but somehow manage to control ourselves in public.....They wouldn't get away with that in Singapore!   Let's send them there!   The cleaning with a toothbrush with a sign telling passersby of their misdeed would be a grand idea.

Ubique


----------



## the 48th regulator

Police Launch Probe


CTV has also published one more picture











I say if you recognize these characters, please do your civic duty and report them to the appropriate authorities.

dileas

tess


----------



## Kirkhill

I would favour extending the Parliamentary precincts to include the War Memorial and have it secured by the same combination as secures the Hill - Commissionaires and RCMP.

And as an aside - before we talk about "military" presence and "not our way" - while the Mounties in their "quaint" Red Serge are considered sufficiently non-threatening and non-military today, we might do well to remember that when they were raised in 1873 Red Serge was the working uniform of Queen Victoria's armies.  They were raised as a regiment of Dragoons, armed with carbines, Gatling guns and 9 pounder cannons, and originally designated the Northwest Mounted Rifles before a last minute pre-deployment change.

They were raised as a military force and morphed into a police force when the threat warranted.  Perhaps we could ask some Metis whether or not they think the RCMP was a military force.


----------



## Haggis

The third Pee Boy:


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I would favour extending the Parliamentary precincts to include the War Memorial and have it secured by the same combination as secures the Hill - Commissionaires and RCMP.
> 
> And as an aside - before we talk about "military" presence and "not our way" - while the Mounties in their "quaint" Red Serge are considered sufficiently non-threatening and non-military today, we might do well to remember that when they were raised in 1873 Red Serge was the working uniform of Queen Victoria's armies.  They were raised as a regiment of Dragoons, armed with carbines, Gatling guns and 9 pounder cannons, and originally designated the Northwest Mounted Rifles before a last minute pre-deployment change.
> 
> They were raised as a military force and morphed into a police force when the threat warranted.  Perhaps we could ask some Metis whether or not they think the RCMP was a military force.



That's sort of my point - we didn't "tame the west" with gunslingers and cowboys, but with law and order. Regardless of how the NWMP were armed (and they also provided drafts for the First World War, incidentally) I see a large difference between how they did business, and how, say, the US Cavalry waged open war on the plains. The response to the Metis was appropriate given the circumstances, it wasn't a matter of policy to do so but a reaction...no?


----------



## geo

two out of the three look military....


----------



## Kirkhill

You might have a point there Michael - circumstances were different.  That allowed a different response.
Anyway Off topic.  We'll stick to the Pissoirs par icitte.


----------



## MOOXE

To find the solution to stop people from defacing the memorial, you simply need to ask yourself 1 question. The answer should lead you to a reasonable solution.

Why did they urinate on the memorial?

Was it because there were no sentries? Absolutley not. Sure sentries would of stopped them, but they just would of moved somewhere else to relieve themselves. The (possible) truth is, the memorial was convienent for them and since they didnt know any better, they acted this way. I really fail understand how people always go for the most extreme solution (sentries). The best answer is educating these people, teach them how it was wrong to do that in public, and on the memorial and dish out whatever punishment they earned for the crimes committed. Posting sentries is a band-aid, and a very big waste of a bad-aid, its definetly not a cure.


----------



## Good2Golf

I think we should cut the lads some slack, in lieu of hard jail time, 3-years mandatory service in the CF should suffice!


----------



## military granny

MOOXE
If these young men( and I use that term loosly) do not know by now that peeing in public is a no no  then maybe we need to send most teens and twenty year old's back to kindergarden. Now could you see these same men (again loosly) pissing in their mothers front rooms "cause they didn't know any better"?


----------



## vonGarvin

I have a simpler, cost-effective solution, brought to you by the makers of the game "Dont' Whiz on the Electric Fence".  Have a solar charged battery somewhere near the monument (not on it, Jack Leyton, but near it).  In periods of darkness, the power is put on.  When someone whizzes, well, you know the rest ;D


----------



## Haggis

geo said:
			
		

> two out of the three look military....



Which makes the Ottawa Police's assertion that this is a "priority" a hollow one.  What if they're presently on their way to the sandbox? Or Wainwright?  Or Halifax?  Le's say they get ID'd and picked up in Vancouver (or Kanadahar).  Is the Ottawa Police really going to pay for a returnable warrant on three drunks who had a leak in public?


----------



## geo

Let's see what the snitch line brings in.
If they're military... we can look after our own once pointed in right direction
If they're short & long haired students living in the NCA, show em the error of their ways


----------



## career_radio-checker

One aspect of this thread we haven't explored is the lack of public washrooms in that area of Ottawa. Yes there were bluerockets set up there during Canada Day but they were used all day by 25,000 people and the other public washrooms located by the West block under the statue of Queen Victoria were closed off due to security. 

So my question is: 
Does anyone know of any other public restrooms located in that particular busy part of Downtown Ottawa?


----------



## Michael Dorosh

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> One aspect of this thread we haven't explored is the lack of public washrooms in that area of Ottawa. Yes there were bluerockets set up there during Canada Day but they were used all day by 25,000 people and the other public washrooms located by the West block under the statue of Queen Victoria were closed off due to security.
> 
> So my question is:
> Does anyone know of any other public restrooms located in that particular busy part of Downtown Ottawa?



There are a couple of 4-star hotels kittycorner to the monument....

There are also back alleys and, as pointed out, 'bushes" in the vicinity if someone really couldn't hold it.  If you're brazen enough to go on a public monument, you're brazen enough to go anywhere...so that argument doesn't hold water. (Is that a pun?)


----------



## big bad john

I can think of one Pub in particular right across the street from the Memorial that has a washroom.


----------



## geo

(there's also a canal running across the City)


----------



## Franko

The person that I thought was a suspect from my previous post.....nope, not him.

They look EXTREEMLY similar....but he was in Winsor all weekend long. Got back early this morning.

The hunt goes on I guess.

Regards


----------



## career_radio-checker

big bad john said:
			
		

> I can think of one Pub in particular right across the street from the Memorial that has a washroom.



My question was specifically related to *Public* washrooms. And as for bushes within the area... they don't provide the greatest privacy or toilet paper for 'droping the kids off at the pool'


----------



## paracowboy

regardless of the availability of public toilets, there is no excuse for pissing in public, let alone on a public monument.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> My question was specifically related to *Public* washrooms. And as for bushes within the area... they don't provide the greatest privacy or toilet paper for 'droping the kids off at the pool'



And the national war monument does??


----------



## Franko

I'm going to say this once:


*THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PISSING ON THE NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL / GRAVE OF THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER!*





I hope they find the bastards that did it and throw the book at them.      

Regards


----------



## paracowboy

I was on the Guard for his repatriation. May be the only time I never cussed at wearing that quilted scarlet tunic and spiked helmet. It's still one of my proudest memories. This...this sickens me.


----------



## Franko

http://www.achannel.ca/ottawa/news.aspx

A Channel Ottawa poll....Should there be guards posted at the National War Memorial?

Lower right corner.

Regards


----------



## Sig_Des

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> http://www.achannel.ca/ottawa/news.aspx
> 
> A Channel Ottawa poll....Should there be guards posted at the National War Memorial?
> 
> Lower right corner.
> 
> Regards



Wow...but it also doesn't specify what kind of guards


----------



## George Wallace

Well.  Keep your eyes on this site.  They are going to post the photos soon.  They believe the three may have been from Montreal.  

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/index.cfm


----------



## the 48th regulator

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> One aspect of this thread we haven't explored is the lack of public washrooms in that area of Ottawa. ......
> 
> So my question is:
> Does anyone know of any other public restrooms located in that particular busy part of Downtown Ottawa?



How about their parents front lawn!

dileas

tess


----------



## orange.paint

My TP WO said it best today,everyone from 2 cmbg should rent a honey bee truck,take turns till its filled up and fill the bastards house.


----------



## geo

There is a report that the fela waving to the camera is from Montreal.
A Montreal WWII Vet has offered a 1000$ reward for info leading to the arrest.


----------



## Shec

Excerpted from a story in today's Ottawa Sun:



> The public, however, is getting the jump on politicians and officials.
> 
> Don Dawson put on a Maple Leaf-red sweater and draped a Royal Canadian Legion flag over his shoulder to stand guard at the site.
> 
> "I got up this morning and asked myself what I could do about this and I decided to come here out of respect for all the soldiers who died fighting for the freedom of Canada," said Dawson, who is unemployed.
> 
> Dave MacNaughton, 54, has asked local newspapers to publish an ad calling for volunteers to patrol the site. The retired military man from the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery said he hopes people will sign up to pressure authorities to bring in a security presence.



As with the vet in Geo's report above, these guys are the proverbial heroes who rise to the occasion.  G-D bless them.


----------



## Hot Lips

geo said:
			
		

> There is a report that the fela waving to the camera is from Montreal.
> A Montreal WWII Vet has offered a 1000$ reward for info leading to the arrest.


God Bless him...it's pretty bad when the vets have to pay out of pocket for respect that has been earned and ought to be given  

HL


----------



## Michael Dorosh

> The public, however, is getting the jump on politicians and officials.
> 
> Don Dawson put on a Maple Leaf-red sweater and *draped a Royal Canadian Legion flag over his shoulder* to stand guard at the site.
> 
> "I got up this morning and asked myself what I could do about this and I decided to come here out of respect for all the soldiers who died fighting for the freedom of Canada," said Dawson, who is unemployed.
> 
> Dave MacNaughton, 54, has asked local newspapers to publish an ad calling for volunteers to patrol the site. The retired military man from the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery said he hopes people will sign up to pressure authorities to bring in a security presence.



So to protect the memorial from desecration, he chooses to desecrate the flag instead??


----------



## Michael Dorosh

geo said:
			
		

> There is a report that the fela waving to the camera is from Montreal.
> A Montreal WWII Vet has offered a 1000$ reward for info leading to the arrest.



Does he take Paypal? I'd chip in to that fund.


----------



## George Wallace

Ottawa City Police are updating their site and made this post:

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/serving_ottawa/media_room/news.cfm?nr_id=3282


----------



## Shec

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> So to protect the memorial from desecration, he chooses to desecrate the flag instead??



By extension, are not the commercially plentiful hats and t-shirts displaying a red maple leaf against a white background and flanked by red bars a desecration of the flag?

I think one must account for his intention - his heart, and actions, are in the right place.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Shec said:
			
		

> By extension, are not the commercially plentiful hats and t-shirts displaying a red maple leaf against a white background and flanked by red bars a desecration of the flag?



Yep.



> I think one must account for his intention - his heart, and actions, are in the right place.



It either works the same way all over, or it doesn't. Is a Monument a consecrated memorial, or a piece of concrete?  Is a flag a symbol of the RCL, or a rag to be worn?

Frankly, I find the concept of literally wrapping one's self in a flag to be a little icky and overblown. And the whole political mumbo-jumbo surrounding what should be a non-issue is sad, really. Instead of just doing the right things all the time, we seem to only do the right things when something bad makes us do it. Like putting up a set of traffic lights at an intersection AFTER someone gets killed there. 

I am, however, pleasantly surprised at the language the Ottawa Police used on their website - to publicly admit "outrage" is something kind of unprecedented, at least to me.  Good for them.

I'm serious, I want to contribute to the reward fund. Hopefully someone posts a way to do that soon.


----------



## Shec

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Yep.
> 
> It either works the same way all over, or it doesn't. Is a Monument a consecrated memorial, or a piece of concrete?  Is a flag a symbol of the RCL, or a rag to be worn?
> 
> Frankly, I find the concept of literally wrapping one's self in a flag to be a little icky and overblown. And the whole political mumbo-jumbo surrounding what should be a non-issue is sad, really. Instead of just doing the right things all the time, we seem to only do the right things when something bad makes us do it. Like putting up a set of traffic lights at an intersection AFTER someone gets killed there.
> 
> I am, however, pleasantly surprised at the language the Ottawa Police used on their website - to publicly admit "outrage" is something kind of unprecedented, at least to me.  Good for them.
> 
> I'm serious, I want to contribute to the reward fund. Hopefully someone posts a way to do that soon.



No argument there.  Wrapping oneself in a flag is hardly "neat but not gaudy" to quote a time-honoured and favorite FGH saying.   

But since it is a sad fact of our condition that we take action after the event perhaps now is the time, while the politicos are in law-making mode to ensure that "It either works the same way all over, or it doesn't" and put an end to descration of the symbols that are the essence of this country.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

S_Baker said:
			
		

> I was wondering why someone would do this?  Drunken stupor or just because they are A-hats?  Or maybe because the respect for such monuments are no longer taught in school and in our homes?  Sad state when peer pressure and just common sense would not preclude someone from doing such a thing.  Sad indeed, unfortunately it is all too common....



If he is from Montreal, it may be a Francophone statement. I know that the vast majority of Francophones would not do such a thing, but it is a possibility. Remember the dude at the Olympics not too long ago that complained about the "red rags" flying from the players' billets?  Some idiots in France spraypainted "take your trash home" or something similar on British war graves a few years back as a sign of protest over British involvement in Iraq.


----------



## career_radio-checker

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> If he is from Montreal, it may be a Francophone statement.



I highly doubt that. In all honesty I think the guys had to pee and looked for place they could do it semi-privately. If you notice in the pictures all the guys peed in corners of the monument (where the arches form a right angle with the abutment) creating a barrier so public don't see their actions. While their actions are inexcusable and extremely disrespectful, them peeing in corners does show they had an ounce of decency. One of them did react like an idiot in the photo but the other two were shocked just as if you would be if somebody opened the bluerocket door on you. No, for this to be a real 'statement' they would have pissed *on* the tomb of the unknown in plane view of everyone.  If that were the case I would say get the nooses ready but really they were probably full of piss -- not vinegar.

Again I'll say this does not excuse them from their actions, I'm just saying their actions were negligent, not malicious.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> Again I'll say this does not excuse them from their actions, I'm just saying their actions were negligent, not malicious.



I'd say that is the most likely; hopefully they do the right thing and turn themselves in and explain.

I note that the local news - and some of the national ones - reported erroneously that the tomb itself was the "victim" in this matter.


----------



## MPIKE

I am certain that given the coverage of this event that OPS is utilizing every available resource to get to the bottom of this.  Unfortunately, their investigation will not occur on a public stage so it is likely that anyone here short of an OPS member will ever be able to comment on the details.  I would like to suggest that we refrain from attempting to interpret the suspects actions and speculating the event into some sort of Unity debate. 

Be patient and let things unfold it hasn't even gone a week yet.  Speaking on a LEO side it doesn't get much better than this by having your suspects faces in the national media..


----------



## geo

.............. Montreal - yes
apparently an anglophone though.  He was heard to utter something or other as he was waving to the cameraman (retired Major).


----------



## Michael Dorosh

I just saw the photo of Don Dawson in the Sun.  Is the "RCL Flag" what is being depicted? It shows a Union Jack with a modern black maple leaf in the centre. Is this really the RCL flag? Just curious. 

God bless his spirit, but he looks a bit silly in July heat with a red sweater on, and a weird looking flag hanging off his shoulder.

I suppose if this doesn't instigate a full time Guard of Honour at the site, nothing will.  

In other news, someone wrote to the Calgary Sun to say "give the pissers a choice of jail or the infantry."  Nice comparison. I'm writing to the editor to tell the correspondent he can keep his trash, we don't want it.


----------



## wotan

I haven't seen the photo you refer to, however all RCL Branch Colours have a red maple leaf.


----------



## karl28

I hope the police can catch the people who did this and  that some form of security can be placed on this monument that way this kind of act can never happen again we as Canadians owe it to the soldier who sacrificed his life so long ago .


----------



## Bobbyoreo

I was really shocked when I went to Ottawa last year and there was not a guard on the War Memorial. They use the GGFG for other things...might as well use it for what its for. Plus I think those members would rather guard that then the gate they sit at....I think its a gate(sorry)

Italy and USA I've seen they have a permanent guard...Im pretty sure there are alot of other countries that do as well. I think we should.


----------



## Pearson

"I'm cool!"!..........................idiot
The only still unidentified leak.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

When I was in Cyprus in 93 the Greek Cypriots had a monument in the middle of a Roundabout. It was dedicated to a terrorist who blew up a busload of kids (Billy the Bomber) so of course there was lots of folks had just cause to go out there and deface it...their answer was to mount a 24 hour guard with a 50 cal. machine gun...seemed to do the trick!
I'm sure we'd get lots of volunteers to man a guard post....if we want to get fancy like the Yanks and the Russians and mount a ceremonial guard that would be cool....but first and foremost we have to have people who can react to hoodlums.
At night in our downtown cores we have a lot of kids in gangs roaming the streets...in Halifax you take your life in your hands around the Commons where street kids and punks swarm people and beat them or worse.
The police seem reluctant to curb this stuff...citing manpower shortages etc...in reality they are sick and tired or Crown Attorneys who won't take charges forward especially for young offenders...who, if the charges are taken forward will get a tsk tsk from the judge.  :rage:


----------



## patt

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/07/05/ott-peelaw.html


----------



## George Wallace

Just heard on the news that the Ottawa City Police have identified two of the three.

[EDIT]  For info go to link above provided by Xfire.


----------



## Jarnhamar

And due to their age they can't be named  :


----------



## Sig_Des

Well, I'd rather that than they not be found at all.

Good show to whomever turned them in.


----------



## GAP

You mean the media and police can't name them... :

I am sure that the little birdies listen to and tell  all   ;D


----------



## military granny

Third one found but no name as of yet. He is 23 years old and I hope they make him wash down the monument with a tooth brush wearing a sign saying I'm a dumb a$$


----------



## Franko

A Channel Ottawa reports that *all 3* are in custody and are in the process of being interviewed.

One from Montreal....the other 2 are from Ottawa

Charges pending....possible fines, or jail time.

Answers to poll.....73% yes   27% no

Wait out.....

Regards


----------



## 3rd Horseman

The report I heard tonight said that two were juvies so could not named and the other was 23 but had turned himself in. I would suggest due to his turning himself in they are keeping name silent. Nice to see that he turned himself in, maybe this one is salvageable after all.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

I think a public apology is the least we should expect. After all we all know how soft the system is and they will most likely get off with a slap on the wrist.

 Atleast they can then be publically ridiculed as they deserve (and hopefully more)


----------



## McAllister

Enough Talk! Time to go hunt some hippies. ...Be vewwy vewwy quiet...


----------



## Journeyman

Perhaps having a lineup of veterans urinating on them might be in order.....and get some pigeons to crap on their heads too dammit!

(Sorry, I'm still torqued from home renovating   )


----------



## George Wallace

I wonder if this will be used in their Defence:

From Ottawa Citizen Columnist David Warren  (whole article at http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/ )



> But while I'm opposed to peeing on the War Memorial, I hardly think it was an act of desecration to compare with the design on the reverse of the current ten-dollar bill. That shows the War Memorial stripped of its cannon, and soldiery. A couple of communist “peace doves” flutter by ("make love not war"). A pert young female "peacekeeper" wields a pair of binoculars against a non-existent enemy; and Canadian manhood is represented by a stooped old veteran in a beret, supported by two children. The monument is falsely depicted as being guarded (by two androids). These misrepresentations are, in their aggregate effect, much worse than a little drunken incontinence. But still not treason.



(Seems the questions about the scene depicted on the $10 bill has come up again.)


----------



## military granny

Part of an Editorial in the Edmonton Sun:

These are not just the antics of a few drunken yahoos. It's an insult and a direct attack on the integrity and dedication of the men and women in uniform in Afghanistan and anywhere else in the world or at home where Canadians are willing to lay down their lives keeping our country strong and free. The evidence in the photos is compelling. And punishment for those caught in this deeply offensive act must, upon conviction, go well beyond a slap-on-the-wrist fine or community service. 

For once in this country let justice be done. 

Full Editorial can be read here   http://www.edmontonsun.com/Comment/Commentary/2006/07/06/1670518.html


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

I don't have much to say other than I can't imagine how my grandfather,a WWII Navy vet, who could not even talk about WWII because of what he went through would feel if he saw what happened here. I am glad he didn't. (or any one of my many relatives who served during WWI or II for that matter). I hope they get more than a slap on the wrist.  Truly disgusting.


----------



## Springroll

MikeG said:
			
		

> I don't have much to say other than I can't imagine how my grandfather,a WWII Navy vet, who could not even talk about WWII because of what he went through would feel if he saw what happened here. I am glad he didn't. (or any one of my many relatives who served during WWI or II for that matter). I hope they get more than a slap on the wrist.  Truly disgusting.



I'm with you on that one, MikeG. 
If they only get a slap on the wrist, there are going to be some very angry people in this country.


----------



## cplcaldwell

It's Interesting to read _George Wallace's_ citation of Mr Warren's article. 

I think the ten-dollar bill is an interesting insight into the problem. We have a public in Canada that is not educated on what our country is. Indeed we seem to sanitize out things that seem anachronous, without realizing what we have done. Why remove the figures from the War Monument on the $10? Are they too warlike? Who could think such a thing? And how could they think such a thing? 

Our system (and I am going to try to be careful here _not to blame_ Liberal Politicians, Educators or graphic artists at the Bank of Canada) has clearly lost the point somewhere. 

The allusion to the National War Monument and the $10 in Mr Warren's article becomes a broader one. 

Let's look at the War Monument, from Veteran's Affairs Canada I have pulled some quotes, (my italics, all)



> In 1925, a world-wide competition was held to choose a design for a national commemorative war monument to be erected in the capital of Canada. It was to be _"expressive of the feelings of the Canadian people as a whole, to the memory of those who participated in the Great War and lost their lives in the service of humanity". _ The competition regulations further stipulated that the vision which the government wished to keep alive was _"the spirit of heroism, the spirit of self-sacrifice, the spirit of all that is noble and great that was exemplified in the lives of those sacrificed in the Great War, and the services rendered by the men and women who went overseas". _


_VAC-ACC.CA

And Further..




Rising 21 metres from its base...surmounted by emblematic bronze figures of Peace and Freedom. (sic) Shown advancing through the archway are 22 bronze figures symbolic of the "Great Response" ...*In the faces of the marching figures there is character and purpose, sincerity and good intent*. The figures are not shown in fighting attitudes, but rather express movement and the enthusiasm and eagerness of the people. 

Leading the way are infantrymen, the mainstay of the army. On the left is a Lewis gunner, on the right a kilted soldier with a Vickers machine gun. They are followed by a pilot in full flying kit and an air mechanic. A cavalryman emerges from the arch, and at his side is a mounted artilleryman. There is a field artillery piece, an 18-pounder in the rear. A sailor marches on the pilot's left. Two riflemen press through the arch, and behind them are the men and women of the support services including nursing sisters, a stretcher bearer and a lumberman with his cant hook

Click to expand...

VAC-ACC.CA

So I guess, no matter no matter how stoned these reveller guys were, *Shouldn't we be asking ourselves, how did such a great monument, not 100 years old, go from such a lofty image of a nation to being a communal pee-spot??* Like, how did we end up raising people like this? Perhaps by not teaching them about national symbols? It's a pity when something that was designed to be an inclusive monument, conceived to illustrate principles that Canadians today would all support, ends up on a banknote in a 'PC' sanitized form, and on an independence day celebration as a urinal eh?

_


----------



## Bobbyoreo

Some of you keep asking if we should set up a guard for all War memorial's around the country..but I think your missing one point. This is a mans Grave. Not just a tank on a cement pad!


----------



## GO!!!

Bobbyoreo said:
			
		

> Some of you keep asking if we should set up a guard for all War memorial's around the country..but I think your missing one point. This is a mans Grave. Not just a tank on a cement pad!



Agreed!

Punish them the same way as if they had urinated on a headstone of a head of state - do you think that the OPS would be "backing away from criminal charges" if these clowns were photographed peeing on Trudeau's grave? How about Pearson or Laurier?


----------



## George Wallace

Today's Bleeding Hearts would lean more towards Trudeau, than Pearson of long forgotten Laurier, (although he has a 'minority' factor that would have him trump Pearson.) in their decision on a 'just' punishment.  Trudeau's mystic still holds a lot of power; heck his former wife beat an Impaired Charge, probably on reputation alone, and if not on the high price lawyers........did I say somewhere that they should be included in the deal for cremation?   ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

Make them write an after action report giving 3 points to sustain and 3 to improve 
(inside joke)

I'm surprisingly not that pissed off. A bunch of morons doing what morons do best. I wouldn't give them or the anti-military crowd the satisfaction of letting the get a rise out of me.

They could do 1000 times worse than piss on the war memorial and they will never even approach taking away from the honour dignity or memory of what our vets did for Canada democracy and the free world.  Bunch of kids being assholes thats all. I can understand how insulting it is to Canadians and our vets but who are these guys really? Nobodies.

Punish them by washing the monument? Hell no, they should be banned from going near it in my opinion. They don't deserve to walk on that hallowed ground. Imagine your kids finding out your banned from going near war memorials? Have fun explaining that.

Best punishment for them being such morons is already going to happen. Their faces hit TV and the net, their names are going to hit the net sooner or later.  (Hey i know that guy!)  Every person who recognizes them are going to say HEY! Your that moron!  I wouldn't underestimate the effect being a national asshole can have on someone.


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

Okay,  First the 10 dollar bill  http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/images&downloads/downloads_misc_currency.html  I disagree with the interpretation, but I have to agree it is accurate.  I Personally liked it, but now that I look again I completely understand where one could find fault with it.

I remember when the news story first came out,  I say their faces,  now they've been blurred out. (around the same time two of them were charged)  I don't like the idea that their faces will be out there,  sitting ducks for the freak elements to deal with.  They did a horrible thing,  but that doesn't mean that we should abandon them to the worst among us. We are still a country of laws.... 

Speaking of laws,  indecent exposure,  desecrating a grave site,  public drunkenness, disturbing the peace.... *hummm* What kind of list could we make up...  (I'm sorry but I forget where in Common law it specifies what is a desecration of a gravesite and what specifically can be done about it)  I remember English common law is fairly lax in its punishments. (Now if we wanted to get Shir-ea law on their butts... I think we could execute them and their families... or even make them watch us execute their families then execute them...but I think we all know what kind of country we'd have then.)   (I bring that up only to point out that we shouldn't let our emotions run away with us,  justice should be dealt with a firm but fair hand,  now enough talk of vengeance)  :-D


----------



## paracowboy

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I don't like the idea that their faces will be out there,  sitting ducks for the freak elements to deal with.  They did a horrible thing,  but that doesn't mean that we should abandon them to the worst among us. We are still a country of laws... (I bring that up only to point out that we shouldn't let our emotions run away with us,  justice should be dealt with a firm but fair hand,  now enough talk of vengeance)


your high horse called, he asked you to get off him.
What are you expecting? Lynch mobs in the streets bearing torches and howling for blood? Give your head a shake. They were stupid on a grand scale and deserve their infamy and ridicule. Which is about all they'll receive.

If people want to vent their spleen on these boards, they're more than welcome to.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> They were stupid on a grand scale and deserve their infamy and ridicule. Which is about all they'll receive.



Yup!

They don't have a problem pissing in a public place waving for a camera, enjoy the fame that comes with it.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I remember when the news story first came out,  I say their faces,  now they've been blurred out. (around the same time two of them were charged)  I don't like the idea that their faces will be out there,  sitting ducks for the freak elements to deal with.  They did a horrible thing,  but that doesn't mean that we should abandon them to the worst among us. We are still a country of laws....



The oldest came forward of his own accord; despite my comments about floating in the Rideau Canal, if the three of them make a genuine apology, that should be the end of it. It is not inconveivable they had no idea how offensive their actions were; nonetheless ignorance of the law (or our cultural touchstones) is no excuse.

We shall see if a public apology is forthcoming before I feel much sorry for them. If they accept their responsibility then I think that will satisfy most of us.


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

paracowboy said:
			
		

> your high horse called, he asked you to get off him.
> What are you expecting? Lynch mobs in the streets bearing torches and howling for blood? Give your head a shake. They were stupid on a grand scale and deserve their infamy and ridicule. Which is about all they'll receive.
> 
> If people want to vent their spleen on these boards, they're more than welcome to.



*snicker*
So you spoke to her too?  I though she was a figment of my imagination :-D Although it does explain the smell outside my apt.... wait,  how did she dial the phone, oh dammed operator assistance. How did she get your number I didn't know shoe could speak English - Nur Deutsch ... *where are my meds*   ;-)  (kidding I'm mostly sane)

I was in Chicago when that kid interfeared with that Cub's game.  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/cubfan1.html I've heard rabble rousing before, it only encourages others to take action.  I guess you have more faith in faceless masses than my experences will let me have.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I guess you have more faith in faceless masses than my experences will let me have.



I think some would argue the kid deserve that kind of treatment, though I wouldn't - if this really was just some insanely stupid mistake or plain ignorant thoughtlessness and not deliberate disrespect.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The oldest came forward of his own accord



No he didn't.  He came forward after his picture was published on the Ottawa Police Services website.

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/images/DSC_8840.JPG

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael Dorosh

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> No he didn't.  He came forward after his picture was published on the Ottawa Police Services website.
> 
> http://www.ottawapolice.ca/images/DSC_8840.JPG
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Quite the incentive, huh? ;D

Thanks for the correction.


----------



## the 48th regulator

dileas

tess


----------



## the 48th regulator

Gang,

This is the result.....

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060706/war_memorial_060706/20060706?hub=Canada

I still await a public apology....

dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll

I hope to see those three out there with toothbrushes in hand, scrubbing the memorial.

Thats the least they should do.


----------



## GO!!!

> Ottawa police Const. Steven Desjourdy said, however, that public pressure did not influence police into laying the charge.



Good, we would'nt want them to represent the public or anything crazy like that.

I fail to see how there will be any atonement from any of the accused if they are permitted to remain anonymous.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Mischief!?  Mischief is a little kid putting a firecracker into a garbage can.  These peckerhands literally and figuratively pissed on a symbol of this nations sacrifices in the past.


----------



## Mike Baker

Public apology, cleaning the memorial, and apology to all the veterans should be done. But if I had my way, the would have a choice, 6 years of jail or 6 years of the army, with deployment of course.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Why foist them off on the army?  They've already expressed an opinion of us.


----------



## paracowboy

why, in the name of everything profane, would we want morons like that in the army? Idiots like that get good troops killed. Forcing anyone into military service is counter-productive to good order and discipline.


----------



## GO!!!

mbaker said:
			
		

> Public apology, cleaning the memorial, and apology to all the veterans should be done. But if I had my way, the would have a choice, 6 years of jail or 6 years of the army, with deployment of course.



Good, they can be in your section!

Why would we want garbage like this?


----------



## Mike Baker

It will teach them the true meaning of why we remember our soldiers, and why we have memorials for them. Who knows, maby the would be good soldiers   NOT.


----------



## Fry

mbaker said:
			
		

> It will teach them the true meaning of why we remember our soldiers, and why we have memorials for them. Who knows, maby the would be good soldiers   NOT.



I'm for the throat punch as well, along with a public apology, a fine, community service involving the cleaning of the affected area, prohibited from consuming alcohol for 5 years... all on top of the current existing charges.

I think electrifying it would be awesome, just have a mountie waiting at the hospital  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Well, at least some apologies from some of them...

*Ottawa teen offers tearful apology to veterans for desecrating monument *  
Jennifer Ditchburn, Canadian Press, 7 Jul 06
http://www.cjad.com/node/379379

* An Ottawa-area teenager showed up at the offices of the Royal Canadian Legion on Friday to tearfully apologize for urinating on the National War Memorial.

Another teen also photographed on Canada Day relieving himself at the monument submitted an apology through the Ottawa police. And a third man, identified by police as 23-year-old Stephen Fernandes of Montreal, was charged Friday with mischief for allegedly urinating in the same area.*

Bob Butt of the Royal Canadian Legion's headquarters said one of the teens turned up Friday to offer a "contrite" apology to a senior official.

"The young man apologized to the legion, the veterans of Canada and the citizens of Canada," Butt said in an interview. "The apology was definitely heartfelt. I know that it was real, and I know it was heartfelt and I know the young person was definitely sorry."

He added that the apology was accepted.

"The actual act is inexcusable, but that doesn't mean that if someone wants to come and make amends that we would turn that down; we're not ogres, we're not vigilantes," Butt said.

*The two young men did not face any criminal charges because they agreed to formally apologize and to engage in some sort of community service. The legion has arranged from them to do some work with a veterans' group. * They have not been identified because of their age.

The three separate urinating incidents were photographed by a veteran who was at the monument on Canada Day. The pictures caused a national uproar, with one unemployed man even standing watch on the steps for a spell.

The National War Memorial with its Tomb of the Unknown Soldier sits right in the middle of downtown Ottawa, roughly in front of the Parliament buildings. On Canada Day, with roads closed, it's crossed and admired by thousands and thousands of revellers and tourists.

The legion and other veterans groups have called on the government to post a military guard to the monument. They point out that this isn't the first time it's been desecrated. Last Remembrance Day, someone spraypainted a swastika on the stone in the early morning hours.

Skateboarders and stunt cyclists have also used and abused the sight, and veterans complain of "amorous encounters" around the site.

They say a lack of education on what Canadian veterans have contributed to the country is largely to blame.

"We've asked for a guard, not only to explain the significance but also to keep guard," Butt said.

"It would be a heck of a lot easier for someone to be there to explain it, for the hundreds of thousands of people who go through here and don't understand."


----------



## George Wallace

Those in the Ottawa area can watch the CJOH (CTV) News at six.  One of the three is supposedly going to appear on the news with his apology and perhaps an explanation.


----------



## ArmyRick

I am all ears as to what he has to say


----------



## George Wallace

Well, he came on and apologised.  Said that he indulged too heavily in "Canada Day" and actually doesn't remember any of it.  

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060707/suspect_named_060707/20060707?hub=Canada


----------



## paracowboy

I've always hated that "excuse". You make the decision to start drinking. Anything that happens after, is a result of that decision. You are still responsible for your actions.

Good on him for manning up, albeit under duress.


----------



## George Wallace

He seemed sincere.  He is a volunteer at a Veteran's Hospital in Mtl.  At the sounds of it he will be charged with Mischief and will appear in Court for the first time next week.


----------



## military granny

I wonder if he will still be aloud to volunteer after all of this


----------



## geo

a good volunteer is hard to come by.  If he's worth his salt, I would imagine that he'll be allowed to return after having faced the music.


----------



## Franko

Saw it on TV.....blaming everything on alcohol and his inability to process it.

I think I'll use that excuse the next time I do something stupid too.

Hmmmm...come to think of it the next guy that gets charged with DUI should use the same excuse....too drunk to know any better.

 :

Regards


----------



## Blackhorse7

Maybe that will be my reply when I catch some punk doing that, and hand him his ass.  There are not too many things in this world that piss me off as bad as this.  And I don't care how sincere he "appeared".  There are some things you can't apologize for, and here's a news flash.  Actors can cry on demand.  So can my kids, if they don't get what they want.


----------



## from darkness lite

Good of one of the youthes to show up at the Legion office and apologize in person.  Although he may have been prodded by parents, took some courage.

Doing community service with veteran's will be an eye-opener for them.

FDL


----------



## Yrys

More of what the 23 years old had to say...

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060707/memorial_update_060707/20060707?hub=Canada


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Good for them for apologizing. Too bad for Cliff Chadderton, though, in a way.


----------



## GO!!!

I love the wording of that "apology"

"I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.....it happened to me"

That judge better throw the book at him!


----------



## Sig_Des

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I love the wording of that "apology"
> 
> "I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.....it happened to me"
> 
> That judge better throw the book at him!



He doesn't even say wrong place



> "It just so happened I was there at the right place at the right time, with too much to drink in my system -- and it happened to me."



Right Place...what, it's the memorials fault for being where your piss landed? He's making excuses. 

This could be an EXTRA special episode of the GO!!! show. Replace the rubber hoses with iron bars


----------



## career_radio-checker

If I may shift peoples' attention away from their lynching kits for a sec, there is another person to the story who isn't getting much of our attention. 
Since this story aired an unemployed fellow named Don Dawson has been down at the War Memorial for entire days on end doing what he calls an honour guard. I felt compelled today to go downtown and say thanks for what he is doing and offered to buy him a coffee. He was more than pleased at the offer. If you live in the area I strongly recommend you do the same. Makes you feel good. I asked how long he is going to be able to keep it up and he said he did not know but being outside all day for the past week is showing its signs: he is getting sunburn and seemed a bit 'woozy'. I made sure he had water and offered to buy him sunscreen but he said it stings him after when he has to shave. 

Bless his heart and soul for what he is doing but he seems... er a bit 'over the top'. He has gone out and rented a wool costume that looks like the Governor General's Ceremonial Guard dress and has a colonial hat. I don't think he understands the guards take 1 hour long shifts to get away from the summer heat. Anyways, the least we could do is to look out for him so he doesn't thunder in under heat exhaustion.

If you live in Ottawa please go down there and check up on him. If you are able to offer him a coffee or light snack or something to sustain him. He is a nice guy and deserves a lot of respect.

Just my $0.02 for the day.


----------



## Sig_Des

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> If I may shift peoples' attention away from their lynching kits for a sec, there is another person to the story who isn't getting much of our attention.
> Since this story aired an unemployed fellow named Don Dawson has been down at the War Memorial for entire days on end doing what he calls an honour guard. I felt compelled today to go downtown and say thanks for what he is doing and offered to buy him a coffee. He was more than pleased at the offer. If you live in the area I strongly recommend you do the same. Makes you feel good. I asked how long he is going to be able to keep it up and he said he did not know but being outside all day for the past week is showing its signs: he is getting sunburn and seemed a bit 'woozy'. I made sure he had water and offered to buy him sunscreen but he said it stings him after when he has to shave.
> 
> Bless his heart and soul for what he is doing but he seems... er a bit 'over the top'. He has gone out and rented a wool costume that looks like the Governor General's Ceremonial Guard dress and has a colonial hat. I don't think he understands the guards take 1 hour long shifts to get away from the summer heat. Anyways, the least we could do is to look out for him so he doesn't thunder in under heat exhaustion.
> 
> If you live in Ottawa please go down there and check up on him. If you are able to offer him a coffee or light snack or something to sustain him. He is a nice guy and deserves a lot of respect.
> 
> Just my $0.02 for the day.



I actually spoke with mr. Dawson yesterday, as well, Hutch. He said he's doing it because he appreciates what Canadian soldiers of past and present stand for, and he thinks of them everyday.

Kudos to him, but it's just a matter of time before he suffers from heat-stroke


----------



## Harbinger

Too bad, the apology would have gone a long way since Canadians are a forgiving bunch - if only he hadn't gone on to refuse to accept any responsibility for his actions.


----------



## GO!!!

Harbinger said:
			
		

> Too bad, the apology would have gone a long way since Canadians are a forgiving bunch - if only he hadn't gone on to refuse to accept any responsibility for his actions.



I'm waiting for the inevitable "I was from a single parent household....grew up in a crappy part of town....struggle with addiction....I'm a good person - really.....If only the government had made me stay in school"

Sixty lashes or sixty days - you may choose whilst in the pillory for a night - NEXT!


----------



## HDE

Agrred!  He quickly positioned himself as the victim of a series of things.  No doubt he'll soon be shopping around for a book deal :


----------



## Roy Harding

HDE said:
			
		

> Agrred!  He quickly positioned himself as the victim of a series of things.  No doubt he'll soon be shopping around for a book deal :



He's a kid.  Children imitate the behaviour they've witnessed as acceptable and appropriate as they grew up. (I'm speaking of his "victim hood" statements, not his action at the War Memorial.) 

While this doesn't excuse his statement regarding his lack of responsibility, perhaps it spreads the blame a little - like to society at large?


----------



## Springroll

This quote is quite interesting....especially the part in bold.

_"And *what's even worse * is that for *an entire semester of school * I had *worked at a veterans' hospital * here in Montreal -- Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue -- and they all know me there, and they probably know my face and they're probably outraged at me. And you know what?  If you asked them, they'll probably tell you that's not Stephen. That's not something Stephen would do." _ 

A whole semester...WOW!

This guy needs the punch in the throat now...and the toothbrush up his arse.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> like to society at large?



Mmmm Nope.  The blame doesn't rest on TV, Society this kids parents or vodka.  He shit the bed.

I actually felt bad for the shit sandwhich this guy was going to have to eat.  After he painted himself the victim I don't have a scrap of sympathy for him.

I'll laugh if someone gets liqured up and takes a round out of him then says Ohhh geez shit, I was drunk I didn't know what I was doing.  :


----------



## Roy Harding

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Mmmm Nope.  The blame doesn't rest on TV, Society this kids parents or vodka.  He shit the bed.
> 
> I actually felt bad for the shit sandwhich this guy was going to have to eat.  After he painted himself the victim I don't have a scrap of sympathy for him.
> 
> I'll laugh if someone gets liqured up and takes a round out of him then says Ohhh geez shit, I was drunk I didn't know what I was doing.  :



Read my post again, Ghost778.  I did not blame his act on society at large - nor did I excuse it.  I DID, however, lay his claim to "victimization"  at society's feet.

I've never believed in the "victim" clause - whenever I've done wrong (and there have been instances, both military and civilian), I have always stood tall and said "No excuse, Sir" - and taken my lumps.  This is the way I raised my sons, as well.  None of them will ever be a "victim" of their own making.

However, while raising those three young men in the '80s and '90s, it became apparent to me that "victimhood" was becoming the flavour of the day for excusing wrong doing, rather than correcting it.  I ran into it when confronting school authorities regarding bullies picking on my kids - being told that the bully came from a broken home, and therefore should be excused, for instance.

I have deplored this trend for over two decades - but I am not surprised when the product(s) of that societal view claims that "I'm sorry, but it's not really my fault."  All I was saying in my post is that perhaps his "victim hood" statement was a learned reaction - not an excuse.

By the way - I agree with your last sentence.


----------



## the 48th regulator

> He's a kid.  Children imitate the behaviour they've witnessed as acceptable and appropriate as they grew up. (I'm speaking of his "victim hood" statements, not his action at the War Memorial.)



A second teen submitted an apology through the Ottawa police. And a third man, identified by police as _23-year-old Stephen Fernandes_ of Montreal, was charged with mischief for allegedly urinating in the same area.

In an interview with CTV, Fernandes said he drank so much alcohol the day the photograph was taken, he has no recollection of what he did.

On New Year's Eve 1994, Privates Philip Badanai (Royal Canadian Regiment) ,21 years old, and _John Tescione (48th Highlanders), 23 years old_,  were returning from an escort mission through a small village in Croatia, when 25 Serb soldiers suddenly ambushed them. The Serbs riddled the jeep with small arms fire with over 50 hits. 

Tescione was hit seven times, including four in the head. Badanai was wounded three times but managed to continue driving for 15 kilometers until he reached a first aid station. Miraculously, both survived the ordeal, and Private Badanai was awarded the Meritorious Service Medal for his quick action.  

Total bollox!!!  This guy was no freaking kid.  And I as a Veteran, had half my head sitting in my lap while doing my duty for my country, at the same age as him!!  He goes on a national newsite, and blames it all on booze and partying, and expects us to accept that type of an apology?  I called for them all to publicly say sorry, and he does and then says aww I did not know what I was doing...honestly wasn't me, I actually work with veterans...

The kid in this whole situation showed true courage, pulled up his boots straps and did the following...

_An Ottawa-area teen showed up at the offices of the Royal Canadian Legion yesterday to tearfully apologize for urinating on the National War Memorial. _  

This fella did exactly what should have been done.  He went to the legion, and apologised, and tearfully meant it.

I would agree, Fernandes acted like what we would typically blame a kid for doing.  Blaming everything else but himself.  The kid was the one who acted like a man.

Feel free to hear our Kid talk about how _furious _ he is that we would be upset with him for urinating on the Memorial....

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg

dileas

tess


----------



## C/10

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I am speechlessly appalled



+1


----------



## Roy Harding

48th - you're totally missing my point, so I'll restate it.

Until we (the collective we) in Canadian society begin accepting responsibility for our actions, and demonstrating that acceptance to our (the collective our) children, then we are at least in part culpable when those children grow up excusing their actions, no matter how heinous.

I too am a Veteran, as are many on this board - what's that got to do with the societal failure being demonstrated by this self described "victim"?  I am also aware that most Veterans take full responsibility for their actions, making no excuses for their failures or lapses in judgement - that is part of the military culture.  Unfortunately, it is decidedly NOT part of the culture at large (at least in my experience and observation, I'm not qualified to state this as a fact).  In my opinion, until that same acceptance of responsibility becomes part of the larger Canadian culture, we can expect this type of self-excusal by idiots and criminals to continue.

Edit:  I came across this column minutes after I posted the above.  It provides an interesting perspective - I won't reprint the whole thing, but provide the link:  http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Byfield_Ted/2006/07/09/1675157.html


----------



## Springroll

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Edit:  I came across this column minutes after I posted the above.  It provides an interesting perspective - I won't reprint the whole thing, but provide the link:  http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Byfield_Ted/2006/07/09/1675157.html



That's an interesting article, but to be quite honest, people are looking for someone else to blame other than where the blame directly lays, on the kids and the parents. The kids, because they should know better at their ages. My kids know better than to go urinate anywhere else but in a toilet, and the parents because obviously they did not take their job as seriously as they should when raising those kids. JMO.

At 23, I was a married mother of 2.....geez, I had my first child at 16, but I have tried to always accepted responsibility for the screw ups I have had. That was something my mother always taught us....personal accountability. If we screwed up, fess up immediately, don't sit there and try to blame it on anyone, or anything else. Just admit it, apologize and offer to fix the issue. 

It really is quite simple.


----------



## Roy Harding

Springroll said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> It really is quite simple.



You're correct - at an individual level, it is simple - as stated in one of my previous posts regarding my own family.

On a societal scale, however, it doesn't seem to be so simple.  It is the societal scale that I am addressing.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Cross pulled off Cenotaph near Barrie, Ontario:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

July 9, 2006


Vandals desecrate war monument near Barrie
CTV.ca News Staff

On the heels of national outrage sparked by the desecration of the National War Memorial in Ottawa, vandals have desecrated a cenotaph in a small town south of Barrie. 

South Simcoe police are looking for those responsible for tearing the cross from the monument at Branch 547 of the Royal Canadian Legion in Belle Ewart on Lake Simcoe. 

Police believe the 23-kilogram concrete cross, positioned above a plaque that reads "Lest We Forget," was ripped off using a chain or rope tied to an all-terrain vehicle. 

This is the third time in recent years the cross was torn from the monument. In 2003, a wooden cross was ripped off by vandals. It was replaced by a concrete cross, which was knocked down last fall and thrown threw the window of the nearby church. 

Officials with the Lefroy-Belle Ewart legion branch in the Town of Innisfil are upset by the latest incident, which will cost between $1,000 and $1,200. 

"I just don't understand these people, especially considered what happened in Ottawa," Bill Pring, vice-president of Branch 547, told The Toronto Star. "It is outrageous." 

Last weekend, on Canada Day, two teenagers and a 23-year-old Montreal man were photographed urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa. 

Canadians across the country were disgusted and angered by the act. 

The teens turned themselves, apologized and agreed to perform community service. They will not be charged. 

The man, Stephen Fernandes, has been charged with mischief. In an exclusive interview with CTV News, he apologized for his actions, saying he had no recollection of the event because he was heavily intoxicated. 

In the Belle Ewart incident, a nearby Second World War veteran has put up a $100 reward for information on the culprits. 

The local legion branch says it will have trouble covering the cost of the cenotaph repairs because of budget constraints. 

Donations can be sent to Branch 547, Royal Canadian Legion, 1017 Robinson St., Belle Ewart, Ont., P.O. Box 140, L0L 1C0.

© 2006 Bell Globemedia Inc. All Rights Reserved.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Sorry Roy,

I was more upset with the interview that he did, than the comment you made.  I guess I zeroed in on it, as it focused on the character's age, and how I could use it to compare.

However,

Not charge them?  Study them?  Ay carumba....should we have taken such and approach with Bernardo...not charge him...leave him out in society and study how he offends...investigate his past..

Sorry that may have been to the extreme, but I must mirror what Springroll said.  We have to stop finding who to blame, and nail the culprit.  We have values, and laws in place for a reason.  Break them, face the consequences.

As far as I am concerned, the younger of the three showed he is finally aware of his wrong, apologised and was willing to accept whatever was dished out to him by the Vets.

On the other hand we have a character, that moaned about how we were upset at him.  He was drunk and out of control, so therefore we should have pity....Pathetic!

My Argument of me being a "Veteran" was to indicate at his age, I did for my country what he was pissing on.  _Sacrificed my life for the freedom he has to act the fool._

So, Roy, I may appear that I took your comment out of text, however, I will not stand for allowing him to get off the hook that easily.


dileas

tess


----------



## Springroll

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> On a societal scale, however, it doesn't seem to be so simple.  It is the societal scale that I am addressing.



I agree with you on that. 

If everyone in society had a sense of personal accountability, then it would all be easy, but the problem lays in people looking for an easy way out, the loopholes etc, something else to blame other than themselves, that is not a product of schools, but rather a product of how they were raised.

If their parents have no personal accountability, how can we expect the children too?

That is not excusing what these kids did. They should know better, but by that one kids coming forward and going to apologize at the legion, that shows that not all kids out there nowadays are heartless little pukes who need a throat punch(like the 23yr old twit).


----------



## George Wallace

I must say that that news article that Roy presented was a very good article and I agree with it in many instances; but as Tess says, they should be punished.  Why?  If we keep letting people off and blaming society, then they will continue to use that to cover their misdemeanors and crimes.  If we give them "serious" punishments, we set them as examples to the rest of society, who will then realize that this is not the norm and adjust their behavior accordingly for fears of suffering the same punishments.  We can't wait to 're-educate' our young and hope that they will provide a better future, if the youth of today are still going to carry on with disregard and lack of respect for the Law and Civil Order.  Punishment is a form of education.  You learn that there are repercussions for your actions.  To dismiss those actions as the fault of their parents and teachers lack of 'educating' them, only encourages more anti-social behavior.......as it is not being punished, but rewarded.


----------



## gaspasser

This certainly has become a long string after a week.  If I may add my two cents worth.  I don't think jail time or a fine or unmeaningful probation (which basically states to be good and don't do it again) would do any good or be appropriate.  Does anyone remember the old army type punishment for screw up?  He and his fellow cohorts (who can't be named because of that stupid young offenders act) SHOULD / MUST clean our National War Memorial with thier toothbrushes! Jail time and a fine will only let them off the hook with a slap on the wrist.  Other anti-social miscreants will see this punishment as a _Definate_ deterant to stupid pranks.  Too long now, society has gotten away from appropriate punishments and let no-good-doers off the hook with meaningless time in the slam.  I do not condone torture, but menial labour / community service should be returned as punishment for young offenders.
meh, my 2 cents worth for the day.
Cheers


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> This certainly has become a long string after a week.  If I may add my two cents worth.  I don't think jail time or a fine or unmeaningful probation (which basically states to be good and don't do it again) would do any good or be appropriate.  Does anyone remember the old army type punishment for screw up?  He and his fellow cohorts (who can't be named because of that stupid young offenders act) SHOULD / MUST clean our National War Memorial with thier toothbrushes! Jail time and a fine will only let them off the hook with a slap on the wrist.  Other anti-social miscreants will see this punishment as a _Definate_ deterant to stupid pranks.  Too long now, society has gotten away from appropriate punishments and let no-good-doers off the hook with meaningless time in the slam.  I do not condone torture, but menial labour / community service should be returned as punishment for young offenders.
> meh, my 2 cents worth for the day.
> Cheers



Appropriateness of punishment is tied to the individual, though. For some, jail would be the worst thing in the world depending on their psychological makeup, career aspirations, etc. For others, it would be a lark to be laughed off. I think it's hard for any of us to say with certainty what would do the most good in this situation, for the individual involved. Perhaps it is best to forget that and worry about what would deter others from doing it again. I doubt the three involved would ever seriously consider repeating their performance, the worry now is about how others view what happened.

From that perspective, whether jail is or is not approriate for the individual in question here, it may be more appropriate to ask how much of a deterrent effect would it have on others, and not just regards with the Monument but in any type of public urination. Calgary is currently debating a law to clean up downtown of public spitting and defecation in addition to urination. The "debate", if you can believe there actually would be one, is centring on how it would be enforced and on whom. I guess I'm glad we don't have bigger problems to worry about... :


----------



## geo

Another Cenotaph was vandalized near Lake Simcoe this week.... apparently this one gets hit every 6 months.   cheez!


----------



## Franko

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> He and his fellow cohorts (who can't be named because of that stupid young offenders act) SHOULD / MUST clean our National War Memorial with thier toothbrushes! Jail time and a fine will only let them off the hook with a slap on the wrist.  I do not condone torture, but menial labour / community service should be returned as punishment for young offenders.
> meh, my 2 cents worth for the day.



I was thinking the exact same thing....along with a large sign on all 4 sides reading:



> These 3 persons disgraced the National War Memorial.
> 
> They have been found guilty of "mischief" under the Criminal Code of Canada
> 
> Their punishment: to clean it (top to bottom) with toothbrushes.




Wadda ya think of that?    ;D

Regards


----------



## gaspasser

Shouldn't even go to court, a picture says a thousand words.  Besides, some liberal minded lawyer will get them off because their constitutional rights were violated when their pictures were splashed on the front page. OR it was freedom of speech or some other dumb a** excuse. 
     What about the rights of the Unknown Soldier who lies buried there?  Grave desacration!
     What about honouring the fallen?  And those who still serve today?
     Was it you recce, who said (and I love this!)   "kneel, face the ditch"
     Sorry, but idiotic stuff like what they did just burns me.  Call me old fashioned. meh.
Cheers


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> Shouldn't even go to court, a picture says a thousand words.  Besides, some liberal minded lawyer will get them off because their constitutional rights were violated when their pictures were splashed on the front page. OR it was freedom of speech or some other dumb a** excuse.
> What about the rights of the Unknown Soldier who lies buried there?  Grave desacration!
> What about honouring the fallen?  And those who still serve today?
> Was it you recce, who said (and I love this!)   "kneel, face the ditch"
> Sorry, but idiotic stuff like what they did just burns me.  Call me old fashioned. meh.
> Cheers



Y'know, you're right, executions without trial is exactly the reason the Unknown Soldier died! Thank God we live in Canada, eh.


----------



## Franko

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> Was it you recce, who said (and I love this!)   "kneel, face the ditch"



Not that I can recall....but if I was pissed off perhaps.

Maybe Mud Recce Man?

Regards


----------



## gaspasser

Sorry, wrong recce guy. For sure it was MudRecceMan...up his alley.


----------



## paracowboy

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> Sorry, wrong recce guy. For sure it was MudRecceMan...up his alley.


no, that's one of mine. "Kneel down. Face the ditch."


----------



## gaspasser

Ooops, I stand corrected...or is it kneel.
By the way, what's with the name change?  prada.


----------



## Fry

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We can't wait to 're-educate' our young and hope that they will provide a better future, if the youth of today are still going to carry on with disregard and lack of respect for the Law and Civil Order.


I agree. In the perfect world, having everyone fully understand the meaning of respect, how and why it exists would be magnificant. However, since we currently do not live in the perfect world, I would also lean toward punishment.




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Punishment is a form of education.  You learn that there are repercussions for your actions. .



Again, I agree. TV, music, none of this makes you do these things. Why? Because I'm not that old myself, I grew up with MTV, Marilyn Manson, Death Metal, Punk. You don't see me whipping out my junk and taking a leak on a monument though.

When I was growing up, if I did something that my parents did not deem acceptable, I was punished. After one or two incidents of innappropiate actions/behavior, I would catch on. If I play with matches, I would get a spanking, and sent to my room for the day, with no toys, etc. Or, if I used foul language or got into a fight, then I would get punished. Later, as the mind develops, ya just catch on. Don't be an ass and you won't get in trouble. You distinguish right from wrong without even being told, simply because you're growing up.

If a harsh punishment awaited those who vandalize, then these punks wouldn't have even went near the place under the influence of alcohol, exposing themselves indecently, and expelling biological waste on something that they should have an honor just standing next to.

Bottom line, the legal system is too soft, period.


----------



## paracowboy

Gaspasser said:
			
		

> By the way, what's with the name change?


I've been internet-ninja'd. I'm leaving it up for the humour.


----------



## big bad john

pradacowboy said:
			
		

> I've been internet-ninja'd. I'm leaving it up for the humour.



Next thing you know he'll be shopping at Holt Renfews! LMAO


----------



## career_radio-checker

Fry said:
			
		

> If a harsh punishment awaited those who vandalize, then these punks wouldn't have even went near the place under the influence of alcohol, exposing themselves indecently, and expelling biological waste on something that they should have an honor just standing next to.
> 
> Bottom line, the legal system is too soft, period.



I'll drink to that but part of 'educating' the youth means sitting them down and explaining Canada's long and rich military history. That is the only way the 'torch' can be passed on. Stephen Fernandes, the 23 year old charged with mischief in this incident, said he had never been to Ottawa and didn't know what the monument was for. Now think of him as you will (I too would like to throat punch him for blaming everything on booze), there are a lot of people who don't know what the monument is for. Don't believe me? Spend an afternoon there.


----------



## paracowboy

perhaps this will encourage some to learn? Perhaps something good may come out of this.

Even so, them boys need an ass-kickin'


----------



## the 48th regulator

pradacowboy said:
			
		

> perhaps this will encourage some to learn? Perhaps something good may come out of this.
> 
> Even so, them boys  need an ***-kickin'



Nope only one 23 year old needs the whooping....


dileas

tess


----------



## big bad john

On the serious side I agree with Tess.


----------



## paracowboy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Nope only one 23 year old needs the whooping....


then the other two need a spankin'. Even if we let the fact that they pissed on a man's grave (a VETERAN'S grave, a national monument) slide, they were still drunk underage, pissin' in public, and generally misbehaving. 
Ass-kickin's all around.


----------



## the 48th regulator

uhm,

I know you participated in the anti smokin' thread, but think about it...traded for packs of smokes.....

dileas

tess


----------



## paracowboy

don't make it right. My ol' man caught me doin' somethin' like that, at that age, I'd just now be sittin' down without wincing.


----------



## big bad john

Get the two young lads "volunteering" in a Veteran's Home or Centre.  "Let" them do something constructive for a few (read 12 to 18) months.


----------



## the 48th regulator

big bad john said:
			
		

> Get the two young lads "volunteering" in a Veteran's Home or Centre.  "Let" them do something constructive for a few (read 12 to 18) months.



Sad thing, the older punk was well before the pissing happened....

dileas

tess


----------



## military granny

Prada (para) I'm with you on this. If any of my kids would have ever done anything like this they had better of hoped the cops caught them before I did.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> However, while raising those three young men in the '80s and '90s, it became apparent to me that "victimhood" was becoming the flavour of the day for excusing wrong doing, rather than correcting it.  I ran into it when confronting school authorities regarding bullies picking on my kids - being told that the bully came from a broken home, and therefore should be excused, for instance.



Sorry Roy I didn't understand your point, I completely agree with you.  That victimhood bullshit is all too common. I ran into it in school when a kid tried to stab me because I told him to leave someone alone (a kid who spent most of his classes hiding from this bully)

Mr stabby was the victim because he was in a boys home (where he was routinely arrested for breaking into peoples houses on lunch break).
Native Americans and east indians, unfortunately, had officials at my school prompting them to take the victim road too.


----------



## FastEddy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Sad thing, the older punk was well before the pissing happened....
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess




So that makes the incident all the more serious.

If anyone believes his regret or apologies, they probally believe Saddam's defence too. His only regret, is that he got caught.

Would his drunkenness void or excuse him if he had killed someone if he was arrested for DUI. Ah! you say, theres a big difference between offences, maybe in your eyes, but maybe not to some.


----------



## Dr Mike

Hi all, I am Dr Michael Pilon ( Maj ret) who took the photos of the lads peeing on Canada Day. For the record I am not as offended by the three lads as I am by the fact that I wrote to four representatives for whom I had voted, at the municipal, Provincial and Federal levels. As well I wrote to seven administrative offices in Ottawa to try to get some action on helping prevent what I saw last Canada Day ( 2005) . Namely people sitting on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. All I spoke to were not aware that it is a tomb.
    The three were totally pissed and the fellow who made headlines was a total prisonner of gravity.
    I have followed up with e-mails to all who had not replied in June and I also sent a copy to the new minister of Heritage. I suggested the following and I haev offered to "honcho" the plans gratis.
 1) A tasteful cordon to keep people off the Cenotpah.
  2) A Canada Day presence of The GG's Foot guard who now are symbolically at the gates of her residence, as well Military Police on site with powers of apprehension and arrest. I did call a number of venues the week before Canada Day with the "Oh that;s not our area of responsibility, call XXX...XXX would pass me on to someone else...And all added that nothing can really be done....
3) Turn this mess into something positive. I have suggested an education program for the Cenotaph on Canada Day. Hire history adn visual arts students to prepare videos on Canadian battles and related war time stories.... I have approached a few companies and suggested a sponsorship of such a program with alrge TV screens in tents at the site on Canada Day would be great PR for them


----------



## Dr Mike

Dr Mike again, I would ask anyone really interested, to contact their MP, The Heritage minister and tell them that  you like my plan...mind you if you don't like it tell them as well.
My web site will haev a page on Canada Day as soon as Ottawa's Bluesfest is over 

*Mod note*: Please contact Mike Bobbit for permission to place ads.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Thanks "Dr. Mike" and welcome to army.ca.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Thanks "Dr. Mike" and welcome to army.ca.



Thanks for your vigilence and care. We need a lot more folks like you....as we say in the Navy
Bravo Zulu!   Welcome to the Forum.


----------



## Tango33

Good friend and Sqn Commander of mine suggests this:

"My solution is a little different. The memorial represents not just one man, but all the service persons who served in three wars and peacekeeping ops. throughout the world. The insult is to the memory of those thousands who died and served, as well as to their families and the nation.

Here's what I would suggest. Put the guilt where it belongs. Rip our various governments across the years for failing to put a 24 / 7 honour guard on the memorial after it is moved from a traffic circle in Ottawa to a more appropriate site overlooking the Ottawa River. Harper might just do this. We could follow the U.S. in this respect.

As for the assholes who were caught pissing, they may have done more for a public appreciation of the military than they could ever know. Love to see their pictures published on their knees scrubbing. Personally, I would prefer to see them licking. Nonetheless, it is the pols who are to blame for providing the target. Piss on them!"

I agree. 33 out!


----------



## Edward Campbell

I don’t agree with a 24/7 guard.

I think we need education to remind Canadians – especially, but not exclusively, the young - that the very root of everything we all take for granted (good and bad, I suppose) lies with that unknown soldier and all the others, sailors, soldiers and air force members who died on _active service_ – those with known graves and those without.  They did more to _make Canada_ than all the rest: more than Tecumseh and Donacona, more than Macdonald and Laurier, King and St Laurent, more, infinitely more than Trudeau and Chrétien to secure our basic liberties, our democracy and our prized equality.  When some dunderhead pisses on the national Cenotaph – or in the precincts of the Cenotaph – he pisses on us all and on all we value.  That applies equally to those of us who honour our war dead and those (pacifists, _useful idiots_ and _fellow travellers_, mainly) who think their supreme sacrifice was a tragic mistake.

The education needs to take place in our schools and, especially, on our TV screens – because too many (probably a solid majority of) Canadians paid too little attention in school and watch way too much TV.  It needs to be constant – month-in and month-out - not just near November 11th.  When the education fails the punishment needs to be swift, exemplary and, consequently, public – even when the offenders are young.

I note that Hong Kong, like Paris, protects its cenotaph (Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris’ case) with a low chain, a respectful sign and vigilant police officers.  I think a few respectful signs and increased police vigilance – using cameras, especially – will do the trick for Ottawa.

I like the idea of Canadians being able to go right up to the tomb – to touch it and, maybe, _connect_ with that unknown soldier and all the others who “_shall not grow old as we who are left grow old._”

Edit: sentence structure and spelling


----------



## George Wallace

Perhaps on that note, we should press to build a 'Kiosk'/Education Center near the monument, along the lines of the Juno Center, to educate those who haven't been educated by our Education System, and Tourists.  It could be an extension of the CWM and the Public Archives.


----------



## big bad john

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps on that note, we should press to build a 'Kiosk'/Education Center near the monument, along the lines of the Juno Center, to educate those who haven't been educated by our Education System, and Tourists.  It could be an extension of the CWM and the Public Archives.



I like this idea.  Aren't their other Kiosk/Education Centre's at a few other Canadian Battle sites?


----------



## geo

Believe there is one at Beaumont Hamel.
Definitively one at Vimy.


----------



## paracowboy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps on that note, we should press to build a 'Kiosk'/Education Center near the monument, along the lines of the Juno Center, to educate those who haven't been educated by our Education System, and Tourists.  It could be an extension of the CWM and the Public Archives.


that's what I was trying to get at with the use of a Commissionaire. One dude with comms to LEO for serious trouble.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps on that note, we should press to build a 'Kiosk'/Education Center near the monument, along the lines of the Juno Center, to educate those who haven't been educated by our Education System, and Tourists.  It could be an extension of the CWM and the Public Archives.



Historical sites in Calgary have a simple metal interpretive board set up, sometimes with photos - I think that would be appropriate at the site of the tomb and memorial, plus instructions on how to get to the CWM if people are really interested.  Surely the tomb and the memorial are "national historic sites" in any event, so they should be identified as such if not already, by a plaque.

Trouble with those boards is, they get vandalized, too...


----------



## George Wallace

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Historical sites in Calgary have a simple metal interpretive board set up, sometimes with photos - I think that would be appropriate at the site of the tomb and memorial, plus instructions on how to get to the CWM if people are really interested.  Surely the tomb and the memorial are "national historic sites" in any event, so they should be identified as such if not already, by a plaque.
> 
> Trouble with those boards is, they get vandalized, too...



That is an idea, but you also provided a rather good con.  I am not sure where it would be placed if they did that, as this is a very busy location at times for Remembrance Services at various times of the year.

I was thinking that the Kiosk/Education Center would be better as a 'Year Round' facility and as you pointed out, less likely to be vandalized if it was manned.  

I am sure that like examples already mentioned of other nations memorials, the Ottawa City Police could easily arrange or rearrange patrols to cover the area more frequently.


----------



## big bad john

I think that this is an idea that we should try to motivate.  What are the thoughts here on calling our MP's, here in Ontario MLA's and here in Ottawa our City/Ward Councillors to get the idea going?  Actions do speak louder, so to say.


----------



## vonGarvin

Just occured to me: instead of a "Police Cam", put up a web cam, 24/7 on the National War Memorial, and ANYONE ANYWHERE can have a gander at it.  Just imagine: someone from army.ca is watching the memorial from Nova Scotia, then they notice some "punk" doing "stuff" to it.  So, they capture the image, alert others on the chat forum, and then there are a whole bunch of people watching, including someone from Ottawa who then dials 911 to alert the authorities 


High tech/Low cost solution?


----------



## Journeyman

You've just provided them with a wider audience. The kids who spray-paint/tag walls for local neighbourhood viewing would now have global spectators for their "artwork," increasing the likelihood of vandalism to enhance their "reps."


----------



## vonGarvin

Never thought about the "braggards" who would then try to show off to their hoodlum chums


----------



## Fraser.g

Yes there would be some "bragging" going on by the taggers BUT they could also watch their buddies being led away in handcuffs live.


----------



## Dr Mike

Dr Mike again, latest on the Canada Day proposals. A fellow from CBC international short wave has sent a petition signed by 70 people to the PM and says if I can get an education arrea going he will narrate it.
Another fellow in the Niagara region suggested some sort of essay contest for kids to publicize what the Cenotaph stands for.
I met a prof of Media from Algonquin and he likes the idea of having students get some form of bursary to do up a Video...
And I have approached a few companies to sponsor this. I told them it would be amazing PR considering the fall out....
I am working on it and will present it to the Heritage Minister as a fait acomplis...they willt ake it or leave it...I am not interested in "meetings and studies" between various Government offices...
Any ideas welcome...
www.drmichaelpilon.com


----------



## Mud

Excellent idea Dr. Mike!


----------



## Michael OLeary

Story LINK

*War hero's Chelsea grave desecrated*


> 'They damaged a sacred holy resting place,' says shocked resident who reported incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Queen Victoria personally crocheted eight scarves to be presented to heroes of the Boer War. This one was given to Canadian Pte. Richard Rowland Thompson and is on display at the Canadian War Museum. Photograph by : Chris Mikula, The Ottawa Citizen_
> 
> 
> Bruce Ward, The Ottawa Citizen
> Published: Wednesday, December 20, 2006
> 
> Vandals have desecrated the historic Pioneer Cemetery in Chelsea, toppling several gravestones, including those of a Canadian war hero and his wife.
> 
> A flagpole flying the Canadian flag was knocked over as well, and a bench was broken in two.
> 
> The damage was noticed Monday afternoon by Caryl Green, a Chelsea resident who was walking her dogs nearby.
> 
> "I first saw the bench was split in half," she said yesterday in an interview at the cemetery, which is nestled in a stand of trees off Highway 105 near Old Chelsea Road.
> 
> "Then I looked over and saw gravestones were knocked over. It's a sanctuary, and they damaged a sacred holy resting place. At this time, with our troops overseas in Afghanistan, there's just no respect for that contribution. It has shaken us all," she said in a voice quavering with emotion.
> 
> The cemetery is the final resting place for several families who settled in Chelsea in the 1850s.
> 
> It is also the site of a memorial commemorating Pte. Richard Rowland Thompson, who won the Queen's Scarf for bravery more than a century ago.
> 
> The cemetery is preserved by the Gatineau Valley Historical Society, which bought it in 1962.
> 
> "We bought this cemetery to save it," said Carol Martin, a member of the historical society who has written a book about pioneer graveyards in the area.
> 
> "It's a small little cemetery, and I think that every stone that could be broken, was," she said, pointing out the damage to a reporter.
> 
> "The big shock is Thompson, the recipient of a unique award scarf crocheted by Queen Victoria. His gravestone is toppled, and his wife's next to it."
> 
> During the Boer War, Queen Victoria crocheted eight scarves to be presented to soldiers fighting in South Africa. Four were presented to "the most distinguished private soldier" serving in the forces of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa." The other four scarves went to members of the British regular army.
> 
> The Canadian scarf was awarded to Pte. Thompson, 2nd (Special Service) Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment, for his bravery at the battle of Paardeberg in February 1900. The scarf is on display at the Canadian War Museum.
> 
> The smashed bench was one of two at the cemetery.
> 
> "The Royal Canadian Regiment from Petawawa made these benches so that people could sit here and contemplate the area where Pte. Thompson is buried. They must have had to hit it hard to break that bench," said Ms. Martin.
> 
> Of the 13 gravestones at the cemetery, seven were knocked over. The flagpole was snapped and two flags -- the Canadian flag and the Royal Canadian Regiment's flag -- were stolen.
> 
> "I guess the stunning thing is that this wasn't somebody going through on an ATV who rammed into something by accident. It really is kind of shocking that they went at things, one after another," said Ms. Martin.
> 
> "You would have to ask why anyone would come in a small community or who would live in a small community, would destroy something in it."
> 
> Historical society volunteers act as caretakers for the cemetery, she explained.
> 
> "We have work parties here several time a year, and we maintain it ourselves," said Ms. Martin. "The Royal Canadian Regiment helps with the cleanup in the spring, and the Chelsea fire department.
> 
> "We only pay for things we can't do ourselves, like keeping the hedges trimmed and removing dead branches. This is what we do."
> 
> Damage to the gravestones alone was estimated at about $1,800, said Ms. Martin, who has already talked to a company about repairing the graves.
> 
> "It's going to cost $250 each, just to re-cement each of the damaged gravestones."
> 
> MRC des Collines police are investigating the incident, a spokesman said yesterday.
> 
> "We were so proud of the cemetery because it went right back in time to the beginning of Chelsea," said Ms. Martin.
> 
> "In that sense, it is kind of a unique little microcosm. This was originally a family plot for the Church family. Some of the relatives began to be buried here because it's such a lovely spot.
> 
> There's one Meech from Meech Lake here.
> 
> An honour guard of 50 troops and officers from the Royal Canadian Regiment in Petawawa marked Remembrance Day at the Chelsea cemetery this year. As wreaths were laid, two paratroopers stood vigil at Pte. Thompson's grave.
> 
> © The Ottawa Citizen 2006


----------



## Big Foot

Disgusting, simply disgusting...


----------



## Scott

I think these sorts should be included in the GO!! Show.

Animals.


----------



## Sig_Des

Scott said:
			
		

> I think these sorts should be included in the GO!! Show.



A special, with guest Para...and a ditch.

absolutely incredible how low people slimy beings can go.


----------



## FastEddy

Beyond discusting.

And to think this scum is walking among us.


----------



## R933ex

Bunch of Freaking A$%#$    

Where can I send my $2 to help the  folks who are going to have to repair this.


----------



## George Wallace

Just shows how ignorant some _________________ are.  A ditch would be too good for them.


----------



## gaspasser

I am totally disgusted at this type of vandalism, period!
I remember a song from my youth called, "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner", Could this be a ballad about him???  Or just strang coinsedance?
If not, then maybe a return of the ghost of Roland to show some people some respect.
RIP Thompson>


----------



## derael

You have to wonder where the whole "hey lets go vandalize stuff" enters the thought process...let alone "hey lets go vandalize war vets graves!"

I hate people slimy beings.


----------



## Rice0031

Honestly, wtf is wrong with some people? 
I literally cannot comprehend why people would do something like that. I mean sure hey every now and then people get into destructive moods, right, but what gives them the idea to go and smash up stuff like that? Grrr, I hope they understand the significance of what they have done and get their comeuppance sometime soon.


----------



## Old Sweat

While not mentioned in the story, the cemetery is off a secondary road in a grove of trees and is not much larger than a section position. It would be relatively easy for some scum suckers to enjoy themselves desecrating graves with little chance of being caught. Let's hope one of them dropped a wallet or a credit card receipt.

On another issue, the story has the most accurate description of the Queen's Scarf I have read in the Citizen. Hopefully the days of the breathless, VC and Bar story are over.


----------



## Roy Harding

R933ex said:
			
		

> Bunch of Freaking A$%#$
> 
> Where can I send my $2 to help the  folks who are going to have to repair this.



Gatineau Valley Historical Society:


Gatineau Valley Historical Society
Box 1803
Chelsea, QC 
J9B 1A1.

Tel: (819) 827-4432.



Their website is here:  http://outaouais.quebecheritageweb.com/societies_details.aspx?societyId=23 or here: http://www.gvhs.ca/

I haven't contacted them yet, but I intend to.


----------



## proudnurse

Unfortunately, it's an example of how much "respect" there is in our society. And also, even the price it will cost to repair everything, will never truly replace the original resting place. It's also unfortunate, that no matter what people like this will never truly be sorry for thier actions and they will never change. 

~Rebecca~


----------



## R933ex

Thanks Roy,
I am writing a cheque for $20 and sending it now.


----------



## Groucho

If the things that done this are found, charge and found guity ( we must follow the law)  a good public flogging!!  Then they go to Stan where they can example to the troops why they did it! ( then you can find a ditch  for them to sit in)! Just one thing get the cat o'nine tails in the bag of salt now! The line forms on the right  behind me to use the cat!!!


----------



## Mike Baker

What I would like to say about this is not aloud to be said on here, you all can probally guess what it is.


----------



## ClaytonD

Too bad they didn't get pictures of THESE guys. They deserve it more.


----------



## orange.paint

Sorry to bring back a old tread.However I searched the site and found nothing in reference to the follow up on this story.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/02/13/urinate.html

Charge dropped for man who urinated on National War Memorial.


A Quebec man who relieved himself on the National War Memorial last Canada Day got a reprieve Tuesday after the Crown withdrew the mischief charge against him.

Stephen Fernandes wrote a public letter of apology, did more than 50 hours of community service at the Veteran's Hospital in Montreal, donated $200 to charity and is very remorseful, his lawyer, Steven Greenberg, said later.

"He was extremely intoxicated at the time this happened and in fact he just didn't even know where he was," Greenberg said. "So the message it [the Crown decision] sends is that I guess everybody is entitled to a second chance."

Veterans were outraged after a retired Canadian Forces major photographed the 23-year-old from Dorval, Que., urinating on the National War Memorial last year.

Fernandes turned himself in after his photograph was posted on the Ottawa Police website. Two teens caught committing a similar offence were not charged.

A Winnipeg man was sentenced last August to 60 days in jail for urinating on the war memorial in Sudbury, Ont.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

I personally think this man has paid for his crime. I hope this has proved a good lesson for him and perhaps put him in touch with vetarans and others whom he previously had no regard for. Hopefully this has made a better citizen out of him


----------



## Mike Baker

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I personally think this man has paid for his crime. I hope this has proved a good lesson for him and perhaps put him in touch with vetarans and others whom he previously had no regard for. Hopefully this has made a better citizen out of him


+1 there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

_*NOW*_, the NDP get upset!  Cough-cough-( political opportunism )-cough-cough...

Shared with the usual disclaimer...

*Ont. politician calls for AG's apology over alleged war memorial urination*
Canadian Press, via Canada.com, 14 Feb 07
Article link

TORONTO (CP) - Ontario's attorney general should be ashamed that a man accused of urinating on the National War Memorial had a mischief charge dropped, a provincial opposition politician said Wednesday in calling for a public apology. 

The decision to drop a charge against Stephen Fernandes, a Montreal resident who was 23 years old when he was photographed along with two teens urinating on the memorial in Ottawa, is outrageous and has angered Canadians, said New Democrat Peter Kormos. 

The pictures caused a national uproar, leading to calls from the Royal Canadian Legion and other veterans' groups for the government to post a military guard at the monument. 

"The Crown attorney should've been asking for jail time, instead the attorney general's ministry gives this guy a free ticket out of jail," Kormos said. "The attorney general should be ashamed of himself." 

Kormos is demanding a public apology from Ontario Attorney General Michael Bryant. 

Fernandes's claim that he was too drunk to know what he was doing is ridiculous, added Kormos. 

"I've been to the war memorial in Ottawa (and) I'm sorry, I don't care how drunk you are, you can't fail to understand that this is a very significant place for Canadians," he said. 

"Drunk or not, you don't desecrate public monuments." 

Fernandes's lawyer, Steven Greenberg, said Tuesday that his client is "extremely happy" to put the incident behind him. 

Fernandes has completed 50 hours of community service at a veterans' home and has expressed his remorse in writing, Greenberg added. 

The two teens did not face criminal charges because they agreed to formally apologize and to participate in community service.


----------



## lawandorder

While its good that he made apologies, both written and in address made, he's worked with a Vets hospital and donate $200 to charity, it still doesn't excuse him from his crime and disgusting behavior.  Now was a chance to set a well publicized precedent that the monument is not a gutter or a pile of trash.  I'm from Ottawa so I see people all the time drop cigarette butts around it, spit their gum out, and when I saw the photo of that got waving while he peed I was very angry.  

This guy should have a criminal charge against him.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Law & Order said:
			
		

> While its good that he made apologies, both written and in address made, he's worked with a Vets hospital and donate $200 to charity, it still doesn't excuse him from his crime and disgusting behavior.  Now was a chance to set a well publicized precedent that the monument is not a gutter or a pile of trash.  I'm from Ottawa so I see people all the time drop cigarette butts around it, spit their gum out, and when I saw the photo of that got waving while he peed I was very angry.
> 
> This guy should have a criminal charge against him.



....and that would teach him what that he hasn't already learned?


----------



## orange.paint

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> ....and that would teach him what that he hasn't already learned?



What has he really learned?That 50 hours of volunteer work,a donation,and a apology letter gets you out of jail.I have to say I am not surprised.I was charged with mischief as a teenager and got away with an apology letter and probation under the young offenders act.

Kind of pointless to argue what he should have gotten,what you would make him do.What he got is just that.Hopefully if nothing else no one would EVEN THINK of doing this again due to the high media coverage of the case.No one wants to be known for something like this IMHO.


----------



## geo

FWIW, I think that the whole incident should be treated as a wake up call to look after our monument & tomb of the unknown soldier ,  FOREVER MORE.

What is done is done (and can't be undone)

Now..... what are they / we going to do to make sure this does not happen in the future?  Have heard a lot of talk - but as of yet, no action....


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Now was a chance to set a well publicized precedent that the monument is not a gutter or a pile of trash.



Too much publicity and fan fare over it and every dumbass with some kinda point to prove against war will (mistakenly) stop up to our monuments and take it out on them.


----------



## Kirkhill

I'm with IHS et al on this one.

Anyone else want their intoxicated activities documented on the 11 O'Clock news?  I'm sure the padre can recall a line or two about throwing stones.


----------



## alfie

Funny how the NDP feels that urinating on the monument is unacceptable but holding a left leaning political demonstration on the another monument is ok. Thank God they aren't running this country.


----------



## Shamrock

Law & Order said:
			
		

> While its good that he made apologies, both written and in address made, he's worked with a Vets hospital and donate $200 to charity, it still doesn't excuse him from his crime and disgusting behavior.  Now was a chance to set a well publicized precedent that the monument is not a gutter or a pile of trash.  I'm from Ottawa so I see people all the time drop cigarette butts around it, spit their gum out, and when I saw the photo of that got waving while he peed I was very angry.
> 
> This guy should have a criminal charge against him.



Law & Order, what would that accomplish? What are the ramifications of that?  What are the purposes of punishment, and is your statement in accordance with them?

How much would it cost to send the clown through the court system?  Think they have time to hear his trial?


----------



## Teflon

> Anyone else want their intoxicated activities documented on the 11 O'Clock news?  I'm sure the padre can recall a line or two about throwing stones.



If I every commit such an despicable act of disrespect and filth as that  intoxicated or otherwise then YES, by all means document it on the 11 O/clock news, the morning news and any other news! 

INTOXICATION IS NOT a defence, vindication or even an excuse for such despicable act!

yes he gave an apology - Because he is sorry about what this has done to him

yes he did volenteer work with vets and made a donation - why because hes had to


----------



## alfie

I don't mean to take away from his offense, as all CF know it doesn't matter how sorry you are you have to still do your time, I just think that the NDP have no credibility to speak on any CF issue at this point


----------



## career_radio-checker

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Law & Order, what would that accomplish? What are the ramifications of that?  What are the purposes of punishment, and is your statement in accordance with them?
> 
> *How much would it cost to send the clown through the court system?  Think they have time to hear his trial?*



You want to put a monetary value on his crime? Would the crown spare expenses in the prosecution of a murderer?

I'm not saying he should hang from the highest tree, and actually think that he has learned a lesson and proved it by taking the initiative before a prosecution ordered him to do community service. 

So in short, IMHO the issue is settled, his name and photo are well known to vets, he made up for his crime on his own time (the true sign of remorse) and probably won't go near the NWM anytime soon. I don't think he needs to be prosecuted, but I would never use the "how much would it cost to prosecute him" excuse to justify my opinion.


----------



## lawandorder

Its just that in Canadian courts defense and prosecution are based heavily on precedent.

What if July 1, 2007 someone pisses all over the Monument again?  Can he just go and do community service, Apologize about it, donate $200 and go on his way?  He can just say "the guy last year got off the hook after saying sorry and doing community service, why can't I?"

Now I'm not saying the only solution to the problem is handing out criminal charges.  I think we should have a presence at the memorial at all times.  Perhaps in the form of a Ceremonial Guard, or any other solution?

The Americans take great pride in the protection of their tomb of the unknown soldier and the rest of their monuments to the fallen.  Why can't we?

Thats just my idea of a solution.


----------



## Haggis

Law & Order said:
			
		

> Its just that in Canadian courts defense and prosecution are based heavily on precedent.
> 
> What if July 1, 2007 someone pisses all over the Monument again?  Can he just go and do community service, Apologize about it, donate $200 and go on his way?  He can just say "the guy last year got off the hook after saying sorry and doing community service, why can't I?"



And the learned judge who sits his trial can just as easily say "And you didn't learn a thing from his experience, son.  $400, 300 hours of community service at a veterans facility or MFRC and six months of probation.  If not, you go to jail.  Next case, please."


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Please folks, lets keep this in perspective. He has already had the most "punishment" this country can offer,...public humiliation.

You wish to incarcerate an intoxicated man who seems to show remorse, for pissing? [ Yes, I realize the location] 

Sober real criminals walk away from much more henious  crimes against living people for less....................


----------



## orange.paint

And the criminals lawyer can cite what happened to the previous person who decided to exudate on the monument.

Why this country don't set EXAMPLES to prevent future crimes leaves me quite flummoxed.

But as with cocaine use in the army,a precedence is set once the first person gets away with it.It's hard to left the first guy off and nail the next guy to the wall.

Do I think this guy has paid?Personally no.Besides a few weeks in the hot seat this topic quickly left the mainstream media.And as for his "taking initiative"I'm sure his lawyer may have suggested it as a way to reduce his sentence.I highly doubt it's his good nature and love for the veteran's that made him volunteer.It's more along the lines of his love for personal freedom(not in prison).....which is kind of ironic when you think about it.

Isn't that what the war monument represents?
Freedom?



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Please folks, lets keep this in perspective. He has already had the most "punishment" this country can offer,...public humiliation.
> 
> You wish to incarcerate an intoxicated man who seems to show remorse, for pissing? [ Yes, I realize the location]
> 
> Sober real criminals walk away from much more henious  crimes against living people for less....................



You are absolutely right people in this country walk away from much more heinous crimes.However this boarders on nationalism,hence the differnt views on this iniquitous act.As for him showing remorse,in my opinion it's as I said earlier.Nothing more than a lawyer telling a client what to do.

However that's just my personal view.


----------



## Shamrock

EX_RCAC_011 said:
			
		

> Why this country don't set EXAMPLES to prevent future crimes leaves me quite flummoxed.



You tell us, what sort of example would you have had set from you?

Let's be frank.  Canada has it's own set of morales and values; military monuments aren't high up on that list.  How many of you people demanding a watch be set up on the Memorial would be willing to do it yourself?

Without pay?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Shamrock said:
			
		

> You tell us, what sort of example would you have had set from you?



Lets see, jail?  

 Hmm, three squares a day[ and no dishes], an hour or two of workout time, a nap,watch a little tube, write a letter, go to bed for 8/9 hours sleep........yea real friggin' tough.

I keep sayin' it, [ Thanks Para]..............folks, 99% of jail time is a friggin' joke. Better he did something productive than enjoy relaxing.....


----------



## orange.paint

Shamrock said:
			
		

> You tell us, what sort of example would you have had set from you?



Charged with mischief IAW:
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec430.html

Think that's pretty fair.


			
				Shamrock said:
			
		

> How many of you people demanding a watch be set up on the Memorial would be willing to do it yourself?
> 
> Without pay?



1 pers right here.If I was living in the area.Lets face it,I've guarded a regimental Guidon many,many times for no extra pay.Stood guard on a front gate with no ammo many times,no extra pay.What would be the difference?Duties as such should be held in the highest honor/privilege by soldiers.

"Respect and uphold the customs and traditions of the Canadian Forces and of your branch. Honour the memory of those who fought for the freedom of Canada."

Again that's my opinion.

(side note to Bruce)You posted as I was posting.How would someone like this be looked at in our prision system.I have never been inside one.Yourself being a per's who works there,how would someone like this be treated by other inmates?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Most would go for a piss with him next time......


----------



## geo

- In my last post, I asked a question......

What have we (a national we) done to make sure that this sort of thing will never happen again.

Everyone is still talking about crucifying the dunce who did it last year..... what is being done, TODAY, to make sure it isn`t repeated?


----------



## career_radio-checker

geo said:
			
		

> - In my last post, I asked a question......
> 
> What have we (a national we) done to make sure that this sort of thing will never happen again.
> 
> Everyone is still talking about crucifying the dunce who did it last year..... what is being done, TODAY, to make sure it isn`t repeated?



The NWM is right in the middle of Confederation square, it's a high traffic zone, PMO accross the street = security cameras, police presence was extremely high there during the last October 28 "bring the troops home" rally. And Ottawa is full of citizens who will pull right into the middle of the square (in front of the monument) to stop kids from skate bording on the monument (I know, I witnessed it myself before I could even say a word to the little snots   ) That's more 'security' than most government buildings get.


----------



## geo

...Yet we had two peeing incidents anyway.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

geo said:
			
		

> ...Yet we had two peeing incidents anyway.



...and just what would a sentry do to stop someone anyway, put out a drip pan?


----------



## TN2IC

geo said:
			
		

> ...Yet we had two peeing incidents anyway.



Too bad you couldn't charge the ground with little power, after hours, close to NMW. Then their little wee-wees would get a good zap.


 :dontpanic:


----------



## geo

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and just what would a sentry do to stop someone anyway, put out a drip pan?



From personal experience, the simple presence of someone would have motivated the err......pee er to go elsewhere.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Thousands of onlookers didn't.........

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but, stupid drunk people do stupid drunk things and then they sober up and go @#$%@*%


----------



## Fry

Drunk or not, respect is respect. It's evident that this individual was lacking it. I've drank at a bud's house which wasn't far from a WW1 Memorial, but you don't see me pissing on or even near it.

He's been punished, nothing more we can do, really. I think they should close up monuments in locations like that, for the night. That way, if anyone's caught desecrating it in any form, they can also be charged with trespassing. That, or like what many mentioned before, have the reserves guard it, or a volunteer program.

Too many have sacrificed themselves so we can have discussions like this today. We should at least honor what they've done by preventing this from ever happening again.


----------



## geo

The Ottawa memorial is not the only one to have been defamed or defaced... several communities have had to deal with vandalism.... 

Proper illumination will help.
a physical presence will help.

On that note.... this horse has been whipped enough.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Locked for now.  Please ask a Mod to reopen if any newly released news items appear that can be added, or if you have something original to offer.


----------



## GAP

*Ottawa boosts security at National War Memorial*
Updated Wed. Jun. 27 2007 1:57 PM ET Canadian Press
Article Link

OTTAWA -- The federal government is instituting a series of year-round security measures at the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier after Canada Day revellers urinated on the site last year. 

Beginning Saturday, two sentries will stand guard at the site throughout the summer tourist season, while year-round electronic surveillance of the memorial in central Ottawa has been boosted. 

Additional security patrols will also be dispatched during the tourist season while guards and crowd-control measures will be deployed during Canada Day and other special events. 

The steps come after an outcry from citizens and veterans' organizations over the desecration of what Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson calls a "sacred site." 

Two teenagers - one of whom had been photographed relieving himself at the monument - publicly apologized, agreed to perform community service, and were not charged. 

A mischief charge against a third man, 23-year-old Stephen Fernandes of Montreal, who was also photographed urinating on the memorial, was dropped in February after he wrote a letter of apology and completed 50 hours of community service at a veterans' home. 

The National War Memorial with its Tomb of the Unknown Soldier sits in the middle of a roundabout adjacent to the Parliament buildings. On Canada Day, with roads closed, it's crossed and admired by thousands of revellers and tourists. 
More on link


----------



## 1feral1

GAP said:
			
		

> *Ottawa boosts security at National War Memorial*
> Updated Wed. Jun. 27 2007 1:57 PM ET Canadian Press
> Article Link
> 
> ......at the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier after Canada Day revellers urinated on the site last year.
> 
> 
> More on link



That is one of the most disgusting things I have heard in a while, and is totally un-Canadian!

Shame on them!!

They should have given these guys some community service at a Vets hospital!

Arseholes!!


Wes


----------



## slowmode

This incident last year was very unfourtunate. These men were drunk and should have drank responsably. But from what i've seen these men are TRULY sorry and did community service. But it still does not take away the fact of their action.
Its great news secuirty is being tightened up this year, hopfully no more drunk out of control young adults will be stupid. This is the main reason why I dont drink and never will.


----------



## medaid

So where do I sign up to be a sentry? No. I'm serious.


----------



## Exarecr

This should have been done at the Memorials conception. To many idiots who are not yet in politics still roaming around trying to be important and just looking for such a juicy target to attack deface or ridicule in the name of free speech. How about Taliban Jack to give lectures on the Memorials significance with that special touchy hug speech lefties swoon over. He could explain away decapitations,murders,and kidnapping as right wing propaganda while he awaits his passport to teach in the hills and backwaters of Afghanistan. He would probably speak of his great plans and ideas for the people of Afghanistan as the Taliban yell at him to shut up and kneel down. Heads up Jack!


----------



## Remius

MedTech said:
			
		

> So where do I sign up to be a sentry? No. I'm serious.




Transfer to the GGFG. ;D

Seriously though, they and Ceremonial Guard are taking on those duties.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

I think it should be a tasking one can earn from the chain of command.. if one puts their name in as a volunteer.  I know it's something I would do as a matter of pride.


----------



## slowmode

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I think it should be a tasking one can earn from the chain of command.. if one puts their name in as a volunteer.  I know it's something I would do as a matter of pride.


This is really the first year that security will be stepped up at this extent. I think after they see how it works out this year they will change it around.


----------



## Remius

It also boils down to logistics.  Ceremonial Guard already employs 200 soldiers or so that are trained to do this exact type of duty.  You'll  need about 8 to 12 guys give or take per day to man the cenotaph.  Do that over the summer for say 60 days, that's a lot of volunteers.  Relying on the goodwill of that many members makes manning a little unpredictable.  Plus you'd have to train them all.  Part of the training the guards do is to condition them to the summer heat, you might not have enough time to do that with an all volunteer sentry drawn from who knows where.  Which leads to another problem, where do you draw these volunteers from?  Ottawa?  NDHQ?  Petawawa? Val?  Now you could set something up like the Gun run with volunteers for teh summer and get the training and conditioniing done but who pays for it and do we really need the added expense? This plan has no cost since the troops to do this are already in place.

Don't get me wrong, I think a merit based volunteer system would be great too, just not very practical or cost effective.


----------



## Pikache

Knowing CF, it'll be some commissionaire? lol


----------



## Rice0031

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Knowing CF, it'll be some commissionaire? lol



Nope, I think like Crantor mentioned, the GGFG are taking care of this.
At least from what I have heard.


----------



## medaid

Pooh... I won't be army soon anyways... but still they should make it Tri-Service... open to all. I would sign up in a heart beat...


----------



## Pikache

Rice said:
			
		

> Nope, I think like Crantor mentioned, the GGFG are taking care of this.
> At least from what I have heard.


CG plus this security thing?

Does that unit want to do any other taskings?


----------



## dapaterson

Rice said:
			
		

> Nope, I think like Crantor mentioned, the GGFG are taking care of this.
> At least from what I have heard.



The Ceremonial Guard is a standing task assigned to Land Force Command (they are not a unit, an important point many seem not to understand).

The Ceremonial Guard draws its personnel primarily from the two (Edit - _*Infantry*_) Guards regiments in the Army Reserve - the GGFG and the CGG.  However, the task is (likely) assigned to Ceremonial Guard, not to the GGFG.


(Though the more pednatic among us (who's pointing at me?) would observe that officially the Ceremonial Guard is a sub-unit of the GGFG, so really the GGFG is doing the task - but the CG is treated as independent from the GGFG, so let's avoid that whole rabbit hole...)


(Edited in an Orwellian manner to prove (post facto) that I am always right  )


----------



## geo

good point DAP
BTW - plenty of saffers have been employed as a member of the CG for the summer

I am positive that with a little bit of juggling, the CG could cover off the Memorial in their daily duties for the period June thru to labour day... 

It'll be an expensive crapshoot ($ and personnel) to cover off the +/-260 othe days


----------



## Remius

It is CG.  Not GGFG.


----------



## tank recce

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Ceremonial Guard draws its personnel primarily from the two Guards regiments in the Army Reserve - the GGFG and the CGG.  However, the task is (likely) assigned to Ceremonial Guard, not to the GGFG.



*ahem* I do believe there are THREE Guards regiments in the Army Reserve. *ahem*


----------



## KevinB

and lets be a little realistic as well if your quibbling on the units -- please dont pretend they are regiments, as they are not even Bn's in anything more than paper.  I dont think the GGHQ does CG stuff as its an Infantry thing (I could be wrong -- my closest exposire to CG was banging one of the bandies in the early 90's)


----------



## geo

I6
The CG is no longer the exclusive domain of the CGG & GGFG.
Of late, once the two foot guard units have filled as many positions as they can, the spots are open to units in the LFCA & LFQA.  There aren't many franco units from 34 & 35 CBG cause they fill the "garde en rouge" at La Citadelle de Quebec as an area priority.

There are many Sappers & Crewmen who opt for the CG task - and the long callout that comes with it.


----------



## begbie

geo said:
			
		

> There are many Sappers & Crewmen who opt for the CG task - and the long callout that comes with it.



And they get to spend their summer in Ottawa instead of Petawawa, Meaford, etc.


----------



## tank recce

I6 - Not sure where you're going, discussing the unit size. I don't know that ANY unit in the CF is up to strength. The vast majority of Reserve units are critically undersized.

Does it matter? We're a Household Guards Cavalry Regiment, with all the pride, history, and (unfortunately) arrogance that goes with it. Trust me, we're also very much aware we're a militia GWagon (semi-)organisation that can't field a full squadron.

My admonishment and reminder that there are more than two "Guards" regiments was teasing, thus the smiley. Your reply... I don't know what that was about.


----------



## geo

RECCE

I6 is back to the old story that Reserve Battalions & Regiments are not regiments but company strength organisations with the trappings of battalions & regiments.... but this is by the choice of the Gov't, the MDN, DND & the CF.  

They are the ones who have maintained the Regiments on the ORBAT - funding them on the basis of Rifle Coys....


----------



## Remius

Hehe.  Yeah the GGHG tends to be the forgotten Guard unit.  Do they still have the horse troop?

As for size, the GGFG is fairly big for a reserve unit.  Maybe 180-200 effective strength if you factor in the band and the 2nd company. The paper strength is actually higher but that isn't really worth anything.  For the most part they always provide a full company at ceremonial guard.


----------



## RatCatcher

I agree like bzz that we (the CF) should mount a group of troops, tri-service, similarto the old guard in the states. In addition, being the nature of Ottawa to be quite touristy, mount the sentries year round. 

This "guard" should be chosen on a volunteer basis from the regs and res, and go to deserving individuals who are "highly profficient in Drill and Ceremonial" as demonstrated to a selection board(side note, I have seen cadet units who drill better than reg or res units).  I beleive that this could be a 2 year posting with senior troops (1 year on the monument,) teaching the newly arrived.

but this is only my opinion... and I don't get paid enough to make decisions that high...

RC


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Ratcatcher I concur with your cadet drill statements.  I wasn't at 2 year postings or anything of the sort I was aiming toward more of a "summer tasking" kind of thing.  We have no spare troops to send to a monument for more than a month or so at a time...


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

Crantor said:
			
		

> Hehe.  Yeah the GGHG tends to be the forgotten Guard unit.  Do they still have the horse troop?



Yes the GGHG still have a Cavalry Squadron (from what I've seen it is really a troop but whatever) plus a band which seems to get around the GTA. 

Does anyone know why the GGHG don't participate in the CG, even though they are part of the Canadian Household Division? Anybody I've asked has no clue...I6 mentioned it may be an infantry thing which would make sense, but does anyone know the real reason why they don't participate?


----------



## matt_man08

Probably because the changing of the guard ceremony requires no mounted cavalry.  I've seen the original changing at Buckingham palace in London and there is just no part for them to play in the ceremony.  All you need is three divisions of infantry and one or two bands.  

The blues and royals and the life guards do a ceremony in London but it is a separate gig.

It would be nice to have the GGHG doing a ceremony here in Ottawa.  Or even to have more of them participate as infantry by feilding a platoon or a division.  This place could use the extra troops.


----------



## geo

Hmmm... why don't members of the GGHG participate in the CG?... who says they do not?
No requirement for a cavalry component in the ceremeny as it is presented - but if the troopers are prepared to don a Busby, there is no particular reason why they can't


----------



## Remius

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm... why don't members of the GGHG participate in the CG?... who says they do not?
> No requirement for a cavalry component in the ceremeny as it is presented - but if the troopers are prepared to don a Busby, there is no particular reason why they can't



Bearskin.  A busby is worn by the artillery I believe.  But I know what you were getting at.


----------



## KevinB

FWIW TOG at Arlington is not tri-service -- but members of the 3rd Infantry Regiment...

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/thirdinf.htm



(thanks for the save   )


----------



## George Wallace

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> Does anyone know why the GGHG don't participate in the CG, even though they are part of the Canadian Household Division?



Are you making things up?  I have never heard of anything ever being called the "Canadian Household Division".  The GGHG a Junior to many Regiments.  In the past, it was usually The Royal Canadian Dragoons, The Princess Louise Dragoon Guards and The Governor General's Body Guard, and sometimes the Mississauga Horse, who provided the Mounted Escorts.  

There is nothing stopping members of the GGHG from being in the CG for the summer, as I believe positions are open to all members of the CF Reserve.  The fact that they are in Toronto, may be the biggest reason they don't participate.  That, and money.  The Grenadier Guards are only a couple of hours down the road, and can easily make the trip to Ottawa.  They, along with the GGFG, have old connections to the Canadian Guards.  The GGHG do not.


----------



## dapaterson

Actually, the Ceremonial Guard instruction (about 20 years old or so) states that the guard will first be filled by the GGFG and CGG, then by other units in the Ottawa and Montreal Militia districts, then nationally.  The instruction is in need of a wholesale overhaul; some work has been done, but more remains to be completed.


----------



## brihard

Ceremonial Guard has been increasingly hard pressed in past years. Last summer they only were able to mount three platoons in one company instead of the usual two companies of two platoons. Courses and 'special' shows put a major strain on us last summer, and from what I've heard it's even worse this year- some reg force units have been directed to task NCOs to CG for several months to help fill holes, and the GGFG and CGG can't even come close to meeting the required number of troops... Previously, it's mostly been limited to 33 and 34 BDEs in terms of reserve augmentees, but last year we had a bunch from Toronto area and other parts of Quebec. I can easily see the tasking becoming a national one for the reserves if the demands on manpower keep increasing. It's by no means a 'difficult' tasking, but it's been getting more frustrating, and after last year many of us had no real interest in going back. Add to that the number of people LFCA is sending on TF 3-08, and it's gonna be a tough go to find reservists to fill the organization next summer. I'll be curious to hear how that all works out...


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you making things up?  I have never heard of anything ever being called the "Canadian Household Division".  The GGHG a Junior to many Regiments.  In the past, it was usually The Royal Canadian Dragoons, The Princess Louise Dragoon Guards and The Governor General's Body Guard, and sometimes the Mississauga Horse, who provided the Mounted Escorts.



"Canadian Household Division" as in the Canadian guards units. Seeing as we follow British tradition I figured we called it the same thing as they do, and this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Governor_General's_Horse_Guards also refers to the Horse Guards as Household Cavalry. 

By junior to many regiments do you mean in order of precedence or in terms of history? According to the regimental history book (by John Marteinson and Scott Duncan) the GGHG can trace their lineage back to 1810 and were the first militia cavalry regiment in Canada, and according to the wikipedia article above the most senior reserve regiment in Canada. Also I do believe that the GGHG have also provided Mounted Escorts for Governor Generals and the Queen. 

I know very little about other regiments histories and everything I've said is from Wikipedia (which isn't the most reliable source of information) and the regimental history book, so I don't know how accurate it all is and may be quite biased seeing as it is written by a Horse Guard for Horse Guards. 

So please go ahead and correct any misinformation. Thanks.


----------



## Trogdor

I'll be mounting said guard at the War Memorial tommorow so I'll let you know how it goes.  WE are all working quite hard as the first posting will be 7 am and the last post will be 12 midnight.  I'm kinda excited to be doing this though, I was pissed off last summer when I learned of the incident.  If anything it'll be a good public display of military discipline.


----------



## tank recce

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you making things up?  I have never heard of anything ever being called the "Canadian Household Division".  The GGHG a Junior to many Regiments.  In the past, it was usually The Royal Canadian Dragoons, The Princess Louise Dragoon Guards and The Governor General's Body Guard, and sometimes the Mississauga Horse, who provided the Mounted Escorts.
> 
> There is nothing stopping members of the GGHG from being in the CG for the summer, as I believe positions are open to all members of the CF Reserve.  The fact that they are in Toronto, may be the biggest reason they don't participate.  That, and money.  The Grenadier Guards are only a couple of hours down the road, and can easily make the trip to Ottawa.  They, along with the GGFG, have old connections to the Canadian Guards.  The GGHG do not.



GGHG Cadet - I'm going to side with GW, and say that I've never heard of the Canadian Household Division. We aren't the Brits, and don't always name things the same. Unless I'm mistaken, the Guards units in "The Household Division" are close enough to actually (or theoretically) work together. We're 5 hours from the GGFG, 7 from the CGG. We have a hard time arranging to work with the QYR!  ;D

As to the CG, I'm fairly certain we've sent a number of guys to the Hill over the years, but it's never in great demand. Or flogged particularly hard, for that matter...

George, you mentioned the GGBG and the Mississauga Horse - that's us, as of 1936.


----------



## Remius

Yeah, I knew there was a link between the GGBG and GGHG.   No household division here either.  There is what is commonly known as "The Guards Brigade", in reference to the Brigade Patch under our berets (worn by all guard units British and Canadian).  Yes yes I know it's not an official formation just one of those terms that is used amongst sveral guards.  But definitly no Canadian Household division.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

I apologize then, as I was mislead by what I read on Wikipedia-



> Uniquely, the Canadian Household Division is now an entirely militia rather than regular division. The Governor General's Foot Guards and the Canadian Grenadier Guards are respectively the first and second most senior infantry militia regiments, while the armoured Governor General's Horse Guards is the most senior of all militia regiments. All three regiments provide both active soldiers and symbolic guards. The Governor General's Horse Guards are Canada's sole Household Cavalry regiment; the Governor General's Foot Guards and the Canadian Grenadier Guards combine on an ad hoc basis to form the infantry Ceremonial Guard. Prior to 1970, the four regular battalions of the now disbanded Canadian Guards provided the infantry element of the Household Division.



Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## RatCatcher

I must reply , however I am drunk.... I agree on the facts of the tri-service...however we are a service which encompases three. therefore the req for tri-servise.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> I apologize then, as I was mislead by what I read on Wikipedia-



Edit it (if you haven't done it already)


----------



## davidk

For the record, there's a GGHG member at CG this summer filling a staff position. A MCpl, I think.


----------



## Meridian

Just to nudge this back on track for a moment - 

Is the security round-the-clock?   I mean.. will there be a sentry in uniform from the CF 24/7?  Or is this more of a PAFF type  PR move and the real reliance will be on the security cameras newly installed.
IIRC (could be very wrong), the issue on the past Canada Day was after hours, and having walked past the monument about a zillion times at 3am going home from work at the bar, I know that one night there can be absolutely nothing happening, and the next idiots doing nothing.

One thing it will indeed reduce is the skateboarders who are ALWAYS around there.  I was always so embarrassed about that when I saw tourists looking incredulous as a tween pulled a 180 over the tomb of the unknown soldier and then took off when I approached....


----------



## davidk

From the information passed down to us, on Canada Day sentries will be posted from 0700 to 0000, and then daily during the public duties season (until 27Aug) as per the same schedule in force at Rideau Hall (0900-1700)


----------



## geo

Meridian said:
			
		

> Just to nudge this back on track for a moment -
> 
> Is the security round-the-clock?   I mean.. will there be a sentry in uniform from the CF 24/7?  Or is this more of a PAFF type  PR move and the real reliance will be on the security cameras newly installed.
> IIRC (could be very wrong), the issue on the past Canada Day was after hours, and having walked past the monument about a zillion times at 3am going home from work at the bar, I know that one night there can be absolutely nothing happening, and the next idiots doing nothing.
> 
> One thing it will indeed reduce is the skateboarders who are ALWAYS around there.  I was always so embarrassed about that when I saw tourists looking incredulous as a tween pulled a 180 over the tomb of the unknown soldier and then took off when I approached....


If you refer to reply no 34, you will have your answer.............


----------



## Meridian

geo said:
			
		

> If you refer to reply no 34, you will have your answer.............



Gotcha, though I was curious if some other sort of security would be posted other than uniformed CF members ("sentry") in MSM can mean a lot of things especially when they are intent on being vague.


----------



## Trogdor

This isn't OPSEC or guarded knowledge so I'll fill you in.  We will have two ceremonial sentries on at the hours stated.  They will have two orderlies in 3Bravo's for security and to patrol the area.  Later in the evening there will be four orderlies.  There will be two commisionaires and Ottawa Police will have a presence, so I am told.  We also have a video camera for evidence purposes should something go awry.  

You can be sure that there will be no skateboarders or other nonsense going on there while we are present.


----------



## Pikache

Cheaper to just get a robot with a giant stick?


----------



## Meridian

Wolfe117 said:
			
		

> This isn't OPSEC or guarded knowledge so I'll fill you in.  We will have two ceremonial sentries on at the hours stated.  They will have two orderlies in 3Bravo's for security and to patrol the area.  Later in the evening there will be four orderlies.  There will be two commisionaires and Ottawa Police will have a presence, so I am told.  We also have a video camera for evidence purposes should something go awry.
> 
> You can be sure that there will be no skateboarders or other nonsense going on there while we are present.



Sounds great, I'm glad its happening.... I believe the Americans have similar sentries posted constantly at places like Arlignton, do they not?


----------



## davidk

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Cheaper to just get a robot with a giant stick?



The robot will be trialled at Rideau hall first, and, if proven acceptable, should be phased in for next summer.


----------



## Meridian

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> The robot will be trialled at Rideau hall first, and, if proven acceptable, should be phased in for next summer.



Should keep the Peaceniks happy... assuming we don't deploy them overseas of course


----------



## Yrys

Meridian said:
			
		

> Should keep the Peaceniks happy... assuming we don't deploy them overseas of course



You know that IT will take TIME to deploy peaceniks overseas ?


----------



## Greymatters

Wolfe117 said:
			
		

> This isn't OPSEC or guarded knowledge so I'll fill you in.  We will have two ceremonial sentries on at the hours stated.  They will have two orderlies in 3Bravo's for security and to patrol the area.  Later in the evening there will be four orderlies.  There will be two commisionaires and Ottawa Police will have a presence, so I am told.  We also have a video camera for evidence purposes should something go awry.
> 
> You can be sure that there will be no skateboarders or other nonsense going on there while we are present.



Who is the group targeting the monument that it receives this amount of attention?


----------



## the 48th regulator

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Who is the group targeting the monument that it receives this amount of attention?



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3190.0.html

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46751.0.html

dileas

tess


----------



## Greymatters

Oh still the same one? I thought there might have been a new threat.


----------



## the 48th regulator

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Oh still the same one? I thought there might have been a new threat.



I was planning on heading up and having the wife take pics of me posing by the memorial, I think that might have got some bells ringing.  No not in a speedo, that was for the parliament buildings!

Something about peeing on the peacekeepers monument on Canada day...circa '95...has raised some bells

Whoa!!    Nothing to see here...Move along...move it move it...

dileas

tess


----------



## Greymatters

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I was planning on heading up and having the wife take pics of me posing by the memorial, I think that might have got some bells ringing.  No not in a speedo, that was for the parliament buildings!
> 
> Something about peeing on the peacekeepers monument on Canada day...circa '95...has raised some bells
> 
> Whoa!!    Nothing to see here...Move along...move it move it...
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Seems to be a bit of an Ottawa tradition, I recall several guys  doing that  to the fountain in front of the parliament buildings back in '86.


----------



## geo

..... And they called him the streaker!,,,,,,,,


----------



## brihard

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> The robot will be trialled at Rideau hall first, and, if proven acceptable, should be phased in for next summer.



They trialled it last summer. Don't you remember the DrillBot in our hallway that one afternoon? Good times.


----------



## geo

Drillbot?.... is that one of the transformers?


----------



## medaid

Drillbot - New addition to the Autobots. Comes with Belgian style beret, a loud authoritative voice, and can transform into a large drill cane for the use by Optimus Prime. 

Increase the power of Drillbot by inserting beer or other hard alcohol. 

Favourite sayings: 'From the right squad numbers!' , 'In squads, squad 1....' , 'You there! Autobot! March with arms chest pocket high!'

WARNING: Drillbot not meant for children under the age of 16. In appropriate activation of Drillbot will cause hour long drill lesson to be taught. 201 pam will be taught in sequence, or reverse order. 

Please handle with care.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Somehow, I have this image come to mind with regards to a DND drillbot....







dileas

tess


----------



## davidk

tess, with that face, you have NO idea how close to the truth that is...

brihard, I'm sure you know of whom I speak.


----------



## Greymatters

Spooky...


----------



## EW

Local CTV evening news in Ottawa had some good video of the two guards, in their scarlets.  Unfortunately the fellow who does the weekend news doesn't know the difference between the RCMP and the ceremonial guard.  He made at least one reference to them as being Mounties.

Not sure if I like the tourists hanging off of them the way they were in the news clip.  Might be okay on Parliament Hill or at Rideau Hall, but they were standing at the corners of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.  Seems rather disrespectful.  Then again it was only a short clip.


----------



## brihard

I stopped by a couple times today and chatted with some of the guys in CFs doing security. While I was doing so I saw a few idiots acting like tools around the guards.. but most were curious and respectful.

There will be no problems tomorrow that last more than a minute or so. I'm quite sure of it.

Krystal- You just had to go there, didn't you?  ;D


----------



## KPR

I like many other people were very proud of the job that was done by C.G. at the War Memorial. You can see a short clip follow this link to Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM5eH6G9Smc


----------



## Trogdor

Ha that was my buddy posting the two relief sentries.  

Well folks that was certainly an interesting two days of postings.  I found it to be less problematic as I had expected it to be.  Also people were very genuinely interested and happy to see us there.  Of course it was a great learning experience for many that day as the public asked questions to our security detail and found that we were in fact army infantry and not RCMP.  Many also learned that the tomb of the unknown soldier is in fact a REAL tomb and than soldiers dispise it when people step on it or let their kids climb all over it.

Strangely enough I had the opportunity to speak with the man who took the pictures of those drunken aholes who peed on the monument last Canada Day.  He was very happy to see us out there and to see that his pleas had been heard.

All in all it was hard but rewarding and I'm sure the rest of the summer will be a equally good experience at the War Memorial.


----------



## EW

Great little video clip. 

Now that the jump has been made to post the sentries at the memorial, I hope it continues year-round.  It really adds to the whole experience of visiting the memorial.  Very classy.  

I've seen the American changing of the sentry at their Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington, and always thought it was something we could/should do.  I distinctly remember the first time I saw the American ceremony. There were only the three soldiers on parade, the oncoming and outgoing sentry and the Sergeant.  It was announced previously that during the ceremony it is requested that all spectators stand and remain standing until the old sentry was relieved.  Everyone was busy watching the Sergeant inspecting the uniform and weapon of the oncoming sentry that they stopped paying attention to the current sentry, who continued marching/halting/about turn/marching halting/about turn, in front of the Tomb.  We forgot him, until we heard a crisp halt, and the sentry yell in a clipped tone (with strong southern accent) "YOU!!!! It was requested that you remain standing during the ceremony, and TAKE OFF that hat !!!!!"  The object of his wrath was a teenager who made the mistake of getting bored and sitting/leaning his bum against a railing.  You could see the fear in his eyes.  He jumped up, and take swept his hat off.  While the rest of us checked to make sure we weren't starting to slouch.

Seeing those scarlet tunics doing something similar at the Memorial and tomb of our unknown soldier, does my heart proud.


----------



## Meridian

Went by last night around 1130.  The sentries looked simply -spectacular- in the low light. Seemed like there were lots of 3Bs milling about though, I heard a few people complaining that it ruined their photo op.  *sigh*.

In any event, good job guys!


----------



## dapaterson

I passed by the war memorial on the weekend; my only question is why the sentries are not ordered to rest on their arms, reversed?


----------



## KPR

You probably need someone with 25 yrs of military protocol, but to take a stab at it ....C.G.'s role was to post sentries to guard and protect. Considering the disgraceful activities of last year this was everyone concern.


----------



## geo

My take on it... no one thought of it.

Would imagine that task will develop over time & troops may very well rest on their arms - reversed


----------



## Remius

geo said:
			
		

> My take on it... no one thought of it.
> 
> Would imagine that task will develop over time & troops may very well rest on their arms - reversed



Isn't rest on your arms reverse more of a vigil thing?  Sentries are more of a "guarding" thing?


----------



## Greymatters

More ceremonial than practical isnt it?


----------



## Remius

Yes.  I guess it's a matter of which ceremonial presence.  A vigil or a sentry.


----------



## geo

they are providing a vigil at the tomb of the unknown soldier
they are providing a sentry for the monument......

as I said, over time, the presence will be refined


----------



## Remius

Probably but I doubt it'll expand beyond the two sentries, on a regular basis at least.  The only thing I heard was sentries.  Not anything about vigils.  But whatever.


----------



## Sig_Des

I walked by, and spoke with one of the rovers, I guess you'd call him, from the CG, about the 2 sentries.

At the moment, they are running it exactly the same as the guards at the GG's residence.


----------



## davidk

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I walked by, and spoke with one of the rovers, I guess you'd call him, from the CG, about the 2 sentries.
> 
> At the moment, they are running it exactly the same as the guards at the GG's residence.



And for the moment, that's how it will stay.

We're hearing rumbles about extending the sentry shifts at the Tomb year-round, but nothing to report as of yet.


----------



## Meridian

Went by on Saturday with my family - my much younger brother has never seen military up-close (sheltered existence, I know), and we were somewhat embarrassed that he lives in the area and never really got to experience much of the more "formal" ottawa.

In any event, we had just watched a changing ceremony (interesting, what with the orders given etc).   When we were there, two corporals were being placed on duty by another corporal, with an additional corporal in 3Bs watching over the area from the side. 

My brother had just asked me "so, what happens if someone tries to do something" when two little foreign girls (couldn't catch the accents well from their parents) jumped on the side portion of the Tomb.  The guardsman saw it coming, because he was already moving to attention before their feet landed.  "GET OFF THE TOMB!" was his exclamation, and then as they scampered off, a return to his former position.

Remarkably, there were a LOT Of pictures of their boots, and frm their boots up towards the sky.  I didn't quite get it, but the whole group of tourists seemed to be loving it.

The bagpiper accompanying the march up to the change was also a superbly nice touch.   Not a lot of people around, but as a taxpayer Im certainly happy to see my 0.002 portion going towards it!


----------



## Franko

NICE!!


----------



## Mike Baker

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> NICE!!


Hehe, +1  ;D


----------



## davidk

I've done several shifts at the tomb. We get a lot of tourists that want to take pictures that I quite frankly don't feel are appropriate for that setting. People have come up next to me and posed as they would at Rideau Hall. It's fine there, but I find that at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, things like hugging the Guards, putting an arm around them, or crotch-grabbing (their own, not the Guards'...), which actually happened, is extremely disrespectful. I know that at Arlington, that sort of stuff doesn't fly.

Then there's the tomb itself. Some people seem to think that standing ON TOP OF THE TOMB (!!!) would make a great photo-op. It's the job of the orderly in 3Bs to make sure that people respect the tomb, but sometimes s/he may not catch it, or may be swamped. In that case, I typically shout "DO NOT STAND ON THE TOMB OF THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER!" and watch them flee/scream/wet themselves. While conversing with tourists during a security shift in 3Bs, I've become painfully aware that most people didn't even know there was someone buried there...


----------



## Meridian

Yeah, the Corporal in 3s looked a little ashamed that he hadn't caught it... he wasn't exactly busy.
Can the security shift member not go over and ask people to refrain from the inappropriate photo taking?

I would actually kind of prefer to see some sort of cordon setup around the tomb.... something white and simple would ensure people realized it wasn't something to climb on.... or would this be contrary to tradition or disrespectful?

The tourists didn't even seem freaked out about the command. The girls scampered off, but the parents seemed to think it was funny. Had they spoken English I probably would have tried to explain to them the significance, but alas....


----------



## davidk

Meridian said:
			
		

> Yeah, the Corporal in 3s looked a little ashamed that he hadn't caught it... he wasn't exactly busy.
> Can the security shift member not go over and ask people to refrain from the inappropriate photo taking?
> 
> I would actually kind of prefer to see some sort of cordon setup around the tomb.... something white and simple would ensure people realized it wasn't something to climb on.... or would this be contrary to tradition or disrespectful?
> 
> The tourists didn't even seem freaked out about the command. The girls scampered off, but the parents seemed to think it was funny. Had they spoken English I probably would have tried to explain to them the significance, but alas....



The security member is in a bit of a tricky spot. Unless something is blatantly wrong, he's not supposed to step up on the elevated area where the tomb is. By the time the tourist is done his crotch-grab shot, it's too late. When we started this tasking, we were originally told to keep people off the carpet that the Guards stand on, but it's come down from higher up that we're to relax a bit...

A cordon? That would be too easy!  Right now the only thing that's set in place is a very subtle carving in the stone floor that says "Please treat this tomb of an unknown soldier with respect." A lot of the tourists that come to see it have little to no grasp of English. So far I've got a bit of practice on my German, and I've picked up a bit of Spanish and Italian.


----------



## geo

Hmmm... interesting!
Thought they woulda used non verbal techniques to motivate people to stay away from the actual tomb.
A small chain on stanchions mighta done just as good to keeps the kids away..........


----------



## davidk

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm... interesting!
> Thought they woulda used non verbal techniques to motivate people to stay away from the actual tomb.
> A small chain on stanchions mighta done just as good to keeps the kids away..........



Technically, the Guards can call a beat to scare people away - tapping the rifle butt on the ground signals the sentries to take a pace forward, shoulder arms, outwards turn, march 9 paces out, 9 paces in. We like to skip that, sometimes...

A chain is actually a great idea, though. Though the first time I read your post, my mind was reading what it wanted to see, and I ended up with "spiked ball on chain" somehow. It would be just as effective


----------



## geo

A morning star (ball & chain)?
Nah, not that brutal with the tourists


----------



## medaid

It's really too bad that the msg for request for troops didn't reach out here to the West. I would've loved to have gone on a tour of duty there. It would've been a great honour.


They really should open it up to Tri-Service. Representing the CF and its members respects to the Unknown Soldier.


----------



## geo

Medtech...
This thing was thrown together at the last minute and the task given to the people who already bring you the Ceremonial Guard.
I am convinced that, given time, the handling of this task will evolve towards something like what you suggest.


----------



## Emenince Grise

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> Technically, the Guards can call a beat to scare people away - tapping the rifle butt on the ground signals the sentries to take a pace forward, shoulder arms, outwards turn, march 9 paces out, 9 paces in. We like to skip that, sometimes...
> 
> A chain is actually a great idea, though. Though the first time I read your post, my mind was reading what it wanted to see, and I ended up with "spiked ball on chain" somehow. It would be just as effective



I was at the Tomb last week and likewise, was quite impressed. The Change of the Guard is quite an impressive ceremony, in an entirely different way than the Changing of the Guard on the Hill. The piper is a great touch. 

I agree that four stanchions and a velvet (not the regular airport style nylon ribbon that retracts into the stanchion tho') rope around the tomb would do a great deal to keep people off, as would some appropriate signage. The idea of calling a beat is also a good one. To see the Guards do that on the quarter and half hours would be a nice touch and give the tourists something to see, as well as show off the drill skills. 

Perhaps the Guards could also do "Remove yourself from the Tomb" in both English and French. I noted that the Change commands alternated languages. 

Well done.


----------



## geo

CG drill movements are fully bilingual in that.....
weapons drill is in one language &
movement drill is in the other


----------



## jimb

IN order to stop the goofy " take my picture while I grab my crotch " stuff and the actual disrespect of having kids climb on the Tomb, how about this........A cordon that completely surrounds both the tomb and the area where the sentries ars standing, with a  removable section  in it to march on and off the sentries ? 

The  other CG members who are there need to be MUCH more proactive regarding the behaviour of the tourists.

 Don't be afraid to take action if they are behaviing in a disrespectful way, regardless of their ability to understand English or French. A  loudly speoken NO !!! is univesrsally understood, while pointing at the offender. Follow that up with a phamflet that is multi lingual that describes the War Memorial and the Tomb, as being sacred ground in this country.  In fact may be the National Capital Commission should create  a "information kisosk" off to the side, near the benches, that would do the same thing, with a multi langauge feature, that informs the visitors about the site. 

JIm B. Toronto.


----------



## medaid

I think a cordon, With white poles and a red lanyard be the cordoning device. Red and White of  would be really effective IMO.


----------



## geo

jimb,
The tomb is hallowed ground... the memorial is, after all a monument.
If people are interested in having a picture taken up against the monument, being too restrictive will backfire and cause much scofflaws.


----------



## Blindspot

geo said:
			
		

> jimb,
> The tomb is hallowed ground... the memorial is, after all a monument.
> If people are interested in having a picture taken up against the monument, being too restrictive will backfire and cause much scofflaws.



What about a permanent wreath? That is a universally solemn symbol and might put the memorial in proper context for visitors. You don't see people hanging off the Cenotaph in Toronto like monkeys.


----------



## davidk

A permanent wreath and/or a cordon would be great. Even just a sign that says to be respectful of the site/stay off the tomb in several languages could work, seeing as the only thing to that effect right now is actually carved into the stone next to the tomb, in only English and French.

As to the bilingual orders, it's nice, but who knows how long that will last? There's a lot of speculation that next year or the year after Ceremonial Guard will become a GGFG tasking, and then there's a good chance the French commands will disappear along with the CGG contingent.

The piper is great, I agree. They don't have a lot of time to play many decent marches on the 150m from the stairs at Elgin and Wellington to the tomb, but on the first posting and last relief of the day, the piper plays Flowers of the Forest while the Guards present arms to the monument.

And, as for this becoming an Army-wide/CF-wide tasking, I'd be all for it (God knows I'd be more comfortable wearing my kilt and balmoral than scarlet tunic and bearskin on sentry) but as Geo said, this was thrown together pretty fast, apparently coming down from the CDS himself. It's a similar situation as to when they sent the Guards to the G8 summit a few years back, and the Loyal Eddies got a bit riled up - CG is a formed ceremonial unit that has experience doing this sort of thing. As time goes by, things will surely change.


----------



## dapaterson

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> As to the bilingual orders, it's nice, but who knows how long that will last? There's a lot of speculation that next year or the year after Ceremonial Guard will become a GGFG tasking, and then there's a good chance the French commands will disappear along with the CGG contingent.



Not likely at all that bilingual drill will disappear.  As long as there is a national tasking in the National Capital, drill will continue in both official languages.

[/quote]
CG is a formed ceremonial unit that has experience doing this sort of thing.
[/quote]

Er, no.  The CG is a task, not a unit.  A unit is defined by Ministerial direction on organization (IAW NDA 17 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/N-5/bo-ga:l_II-gb:s_17//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II-gb:s_17); there is no Ministerial Organizational Order extant for the Ceremonial Guard.  However, as I once learned, attempting to convince senior personnel involved with the CG that it isn't a unit is a task akin to hitting one's head against a brick wall repeatedly, only somewhat less satisfying and much less productive.  Infantry officers are nothing if not dogged in their beliefs...


----------



## Remius

Pte D. Krystal said:
			
		

> As to the bilingual orders, it's nice, but who knows how long that will last? There's a lot of speculation that next year or the year after Ceremonial Guard will become a GGFG tasking, and then there's a good chance the French commands will disappear along with the CGG contingent.



Doubtful.  The GGFG use french commands for most of its rifle drill even back at the unit.  It has nothing to do with the CGG (an English unit).


----------



## davidk

I stand corrected on the French drill.

What I meant, however, was that CG was a formed body of troops trained in ceremonial duties. Unit is probably the wrong word.


----------



## Remius

Actually you are not completely wrong since CG has a UIC.


----------



## dapaterson

UIC = old school.  new school = Department ID (DeptID in HRMS-speak).

A UIC or DeptID does not make an entity a unit.  A signed MOO does.  The NDA defines what a "unit" is - anything else is something else, but not a unit unless it's got the Minister's seal of approval.


----------



## Trogdor

It is the case.  All our foot drill is english and our rifle drill is in french.  With some exceptions on parade.


----------



## Dr Mike

I am a bit late getting in here with a comment. But I was filled with pride the day before Canada Day when the GGFG mounted teh Guard of Honour at the Cenotaph. It is an embarassment that it took almost 70 years but....I was the fellow who  tried to get some action a year ago before Canada Day 2006. The previous year i had seen people sitting on the Tomb and I and a few others took it upon ourselves to tell people what the Tomb represents. i sent out 11 e-mails to various Politicios and administrative suits to no avail, in mid June 2006 I again sent out e-mails with my concerns.
     I had three proposals, a security presence to keep the drunks at bay, a cordon to help in this and an information set up of some sort to inform people what the Cenotaph and the Tomb represent...sad as it seems many are not awares...

       Last year my now famous pictures of the three pissoires...made international headlines. i received e-mail and calls from the US , Australia and the Netherlands...all expressing shock at the incident. A few former Army buddies also contacted me offering support...Sadly not one member of the present CF or my former branch the Dental Corps, offered any support....too busy working on careers i suppose .


   The past year i have been active on the phone and the net trying to interest the politicians and Ottawa administrators , in setting up a security system worthy of teh Cenotaph. One call to the minstry of Heritage resulted in my finding out that the assigment had been given to a sumemr student...the Ministry of Veterans' Affairs told me that if I were to set up an information booth on my own I would be fined and it would be torn down...and those were the "positive " responses...it was a game of Pass the buck for a year.

    Ten days before Canada Day someone from Pubic Works called to tell me that they were hiring "security" for Canada Day...I replied somewhat sardonically , "Oh like a used car lot ?"  ...silence....I added "If you do not have a proper military and Police presence for Canada Day it will be a slap in the face of all Canadians.
Apparently two days before Canada Day teh Governor generals' Foot Guard were assigned the duty of Honour Guard...it has been an immense success. it is a tourist attraction and a source of information.
    there are a few suggestions i could make but no one would listen...an information booth is a must, people do not know what the site it. On occasion I have ventured by, one embarassing moment was talking to some British tourists, they were very impressed with the Guard of Honour and asked how long it had been a part of the Cenotaph . I had to say rather shamedly , "Two days..."
     On Canada night next year the police will probably block off Wllington street to keep the drunks out, and i suggest more cordons...

An Autralian friend read about it in a local paper and asked if i had been given the keys to the city...i don;t expect anything from this but a thank you from politiicans has not been fothcoming. Myown Ottawa South MP and MPP the McGuinty brothers have been silent, I called the mayor several times in June trying to get something going and again no response...One MP Royal Gallipeau came to my dental office and actually gave me a hug...man I was really appreciative...my dad was a vet ( AFC) an uncle was a POQW another wounded....these are the guys i did it for...but the politicos could have shown a bit of class and acted on this...it was a slam dunk.

Colour me cynical...but I now feel they work for themselves first and that 5 year pension,. then the party..and they dare not vote against the party..then if there is time maybe the constituents..

Mike

www.drmichaelpilon.com


----------



## Dr Mike

am a bit late getting in here with a comment. But I was filled with pride the day before Canada Day when the GGFG mounted teh Guard of Honour at the Cenotaph. It is an embarassment that it took almost 70 years but....I was the fellow who  tried to get some action a year ago before Canada Day 2006. The previous year i had seen people sitting on the Tomb and I and a few others took it upon ourselves to tell people what the Tomb represents. i sent out 11 e-mails to various Politicios and administrative suits to no avail, in mid June 2006 I again sent out e-mails with my concerns.
     I had three proposals, a security presence to keep the drunks at bay, a cordon to help in this and an information set up of some sort to inform people what the Cenotaph and the Tomb represent...sad as it seems many are not awares...

       Last year my now famous pictures of the three pissoires...made international headlines. i received e-mail and calls from the US , Australia and the Netherlands...all expressing shock at the incident. A few former Army buddies also contacted me offering support...Sadly not one member of the present CF or my former branch the Dental Corps, offered any support....too busy working on careers i suppose .


   The past year i have been active on the phone and the net trying to interest the politicians and Ottawa administrators , in setting up a security system worthy of teh Cenotaph. One call to the minstry of Heritage resulted in my finding out that the assigment had been given to a sumemr student...the Ministry of Veterans' Affairs told me that if I were to set up an information booth on my own I would be fined and it would be torn down...and those were the "positive " responses...it was a game of Pass the buck for a year.

    Ten days before Canada Day someone from Pubic Works called to tell me that they were hiring "security" for Canada Day...I replied somewhat sardonically , "Oh like a used car lot ?"  ...silence....I added "If you do not have a proper military and Police presence for Canada Day it will be a slap in the face of all Canadians.
Apparently two days before Canada Day teh Governor generals' Foot Guard were assigned the duty of Honour Guard...it has been an immense success. it is a tourist attraction and a source of information.
    there are a few suggestions i could make but no one would listen...an information booth is a must, people do not know what the site it. On occasion I have ventured by, one embarassing moment was talking to some British tourists, they were very impressed with the Guard of Honour and asked how long it had been a part of the Cenotaph . I had to say rather shamedly , "Two days..."
     On Canada night next year the police will probably block off Wllington street to keep the drunks out, and i suggest more cordons...

An Autralian friend read about it in a local paper and asked if i had been given the keys to the city...i don;t expect anything from this but a thank you from politiicans has not been fothcoming. Myown Ottawa South MP and MPP the McGuinty brothers have been silent, I called the mayor several times in June trying to get something going and again no response...One MP Royal Gallipeau came to my dental office and actually gave me a hug...man I was really appreciative...my dad was a vet ( AFC) an uncle was a POQW another wounded....these are the guys i did it for...but the politicos could have shown a bit of class and acted on this...it was a slam dunk.

Colour me cynical...but I now feel they work for themselves first and that 5 year pension,. then the party..and they dare not vote against the party..then if there is time maybe the constituents..

Mike

www.drmichaelpilon.com


----------



## Emenince Grise

Dr Mike said:
			
		

> I am a bit late getting in here with a comment. But I was filled with pride the day before Canada Day when the GGFG mounted teh Guard of Honour at the Cenotaph. It is an embarassment that it took almost 70 years but....I was the fellow who  tried to get some action a year ago before Canada Day 2006.



You did a fine job. My only suggestion is that the security soldiers who answer questions should be much more informed. The day I visited, a Spanish-speaking visitor asked (in somehwat fractured English) the security person when the Changing of the Guard occurred. His response was "Every hour on the hour." I realized that the gentleman and his group were actually looking for the Changing of the Guard ceremony on Parliament Hill, so I offered a brief clarification that therre were two ceremonies and the larger one was at 10:00, "over there" (pointing to the Hill). I also suggested he come back at 11:00 for the changing of the guard at the Memorial. Much nodding and smiles. 

Perhaps I'll speak to my MP about this. He's a backbencher, but big on veterans stuff. It can't hurt. And perhaps if folks here did likewise... and talked to the media...


----------



## The Bread Guy

I've been trying to get information from this link:

http://www.radioenergie.com/nouvelle.php?id=1370414

based on this Google Search summary:
"Un monument dédié aux Anciens combattants a été vandalisé à Lachine. Des graffitis à saveur indépendantiste ont été peints par-dessus les noms des soldats..."

but 1)  the page doesn't have any obvious or (that I could find) buried information on this incident, and 2) I can't find any other references via French or English media - any assistance with either links or first-hand info much appreciated.

Edited to add found info from Montreal Gazette, shared with usual disclaimer:
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=da43b6e2-239c-4142-9a44-9904c61a64b1

*Veterans angered by latest vandalism*
'This is an insult'. 'Quebec Libre,' 'FLQ' painted on cenotaph
KATHERINE WILTON, The Gazette (Montreal), 2 Jan 08

Vandals spray-painted nationalist slogans on the cenotaph in Lachine during the weekend, angering local veterans as they were preparing to ring in the new year at the local Legion.

Gordon Biggs, chairman of Royal Canadian Legion Branch 85/90 in Lachine, said he was shocked to see the words "FLQ" and "Québec Libre" spray-painted on the memorial on Henri Dunant St. on Sunday. The blue paint covers many veterans' names inscribed on the cenotaph.

"This is an insult," Biggs said.

"I can understand kids doing graffiti, but this isn't graffiti. This is a disgrace."

He said the vandalism is all the more shocking because it was discovered Sunday, the day Canadian soldier Jonathan Dion was killed in Afghanistan, after his vehicle hit a roadside bomb.

"People have no respect,"

Biggs said. "We have veterans here and they take this kind of thing hard."

Olive Fell, 86, a Legion volunteer, said the vandalism put a damper on the New Year's Eve celebrations. "It is a shame people do this," Fell said as she prepared dinner for the aging veterans and their families. "They steal our wreaths as well."

Fell said she expected Lachine borough workers would remove the graffiti as soon as possible.

Last summer, someone tried to remove bronze plaques from the cenotaph. The attempted theft, probably done because the value of scrap metal is rising, damaged fittings on the plaques and they had to be replaced, Legion member Gary Benwell said.

No arrests have been made in the latest vandalism, Montreal police Constable Olivier Lapointe said.

kwilton@thegazette.canwest.com


----------



## Franko

Dumbasses + alcohol = moronic behavior

I hope they catch them and make them clean it in full public view.

Sad really. They deface a monument honouring the people that enable them to freely be jackasses.

Regards


----------



## Hawk

Unfortunately, they never catch them. Someone spray painted a war memorial outside a church in Osborne Village, Winnipeg over 2 years ago, and they were never caught. It was an awful mess, and, surprisingly for the type of church and community the Village is, everyone was upset about it.

Someone keeps drawing on a panel by the back door of our building - 2 or 3 times a week all summer - I tried all summer to catch them at it but failed. If its fresh, WD40 takes it off, and I spent a lot of time scrubbing. Our building is tagged, front and back - its old and I can't get it off, but maybe it protects us from a rival gang.

I wish these vandals would find something else to do, but perhaps they're also the ones who damage grave markers in cemeteries, too, and that's the alternative. They have no respect for anyone - let alone self-respect.


----------



## geo

Hawk... if your property is tagged 2 or 3 times a week, a concealed remote camera could resolve the problem in short order.  It worked here.... His mother thought he was a little angel till my video clip showed him for what he was... Haven't seen the little monster's distinctive "tag" artwork in our area for a long time....


----------



## Hawk

I might have to go to that if it continues once it warms up outside. Its about 7 feet from my kitchen window, so I thought I should be able to catch the jerk - no such luck. I'd love to grab his/her marker/spray can and graffiti him/her. What they draw is an eye, or an eye shape with 2 lines in it. It would look great in red or black on the forehead of the ass@1&%


Hawk


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

In my professional opinion there is a special place in Hell for people who would desicrate this or any sacred monument. Shame on them. :rage:


----------



## geo

desecrating any form of private (or public) property should be punished, with all the authority our laws can throw at them.


----------



## Col.Steiner

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Dumbasses + alcohol = moronic behavior
> 
> I hope they catch them and make them clean it in full public view.
> 
> Sad really. They deface a monument honouring the people that enable them to freely be jackasses.
> 
> Regards



I would like to think that you are right, and that it is simply drunk idiots. Unfortunately for anyone that lives in Quebec and not in a vacuum, this separatist borderline terrorist element is still a problem that is almost completely ignored by the media. It is this entrenched mentality that many Quebecers have of the 'evil English' threat to their culture that allows such crap to be chalked up to a fringe bunch when it is not at all. As an Anglophone living in Montreal, I have seen countless hate graffiti, vandalism, and have on many occasions been discriminated against for being English. It is an every day reality! To say they are just drunk idiots diminishes the real problem that the media and government chooses to ignore.
The separatist slogans on a Federal monument isn't a coincident, it is a pretty obvious message.


----------



## geo

Steiner,
While I sympathize for the discrimination you claim to have experienced, I dissagree.  Have done a good part of my career in Quebec & while some people still swing the FLQ slogans from time to time, pert much all the militantcy & radicalism that might have existed has faded away.

The FLQ is a dead duck .... and who the He!! cares?

Many francophones would tell you that the discrimination you have received in Quebec - they have received in turn elsewhere in our great land..... there are small minded people everywhere.


----------



## Meridian

geo said:
			
		

> Many francophones would tell you that the discrimination you have received in Quebec - they have received in turn elsewhere in our great land..... there are small minded people everywhere.



One could reasonably argue that Bill 101 and the recent Reasonable Accomodations hearings would demonstrate that Quebec forcibly discriminates against languages and cultures other than Quebec Francophonie.  If you've worked here and ever suffered through an OLF audit, you'll know what i mean.

The fact that it occurs in other provinces to Francophones doesn't mean it doesn't happen in Quebec.  I've heard the argument you just made come out of many young quebecois mouths, and interestingly enough many of them have never even been outside the province or west of Montreal.

Coming back to the issue at hand - unfortunately it  seems that for some youth/individuals, War Memorials are symbolic testimonials to the underlying government action of war rather than individual human sacrifice and honour. This is much like how the Army, the government, police, etc are all just an example of an oppressive government that does not support a Quebec libre.   Warped,  but still a world-view held by some.

Wrong? Yes.  Going to change?  I hope so.  Realistic? Probably not.


----------



## George Wallace

Meridian said:
			
		

> ....... and interestingly enough many of them have never even been outside the province or west of Montreal.



Interestingly enough is quite right.  It is truely interesting how much their attitudes change once they have left the province for vacation or work.  Even more interesting is after some have paid a visit to France and faced discrimination there.


----------



## Col.Steiner

The FLQ may be a dead duck but the terrorist element, Mouvement de Libération Nationale du Québec (MLNQ),  is not. Google Raymond Villeneuve and you can see he is still very active and calling for physical violence against English Canadians and that "s shotgun would be a great method of killing". Little or nothing is done about this. If you or I did this, we would be up on hate charges so ******* quick our heads would spin.
Also, about 5 years ago, the city hall in a west island community (English) had separatist slogans and death threats painted on it's exterior and a small, half-assed explosive device was found. Similarly, a 'Second Cup', the cafe, used too many English words on its menu and was fire bombed. Hardly incidents to ignore! The media pays little attention to it, The police could care less, and the government completely ignores the problem, probably because of its ***-kissing tendencies when it comes to its preferential treatment of Quebec. Don't get me wrong, i am not slagging French Quebecers, I wouldn't live here if I didn't love their culture, I am talking about a few, and that few is pretty scary. 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1067391204055_62800404/?hub=Canada
http://www.montrealmirror.com/ARCHIVES/1997/103097/cover.html


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough is quite right.  It is truely interesting how much their attitudes change once they have left the province for vacation or work.  Even more interesting is after some have paid a visit to France and faced discrimination there.



Quite true. I spent a month in France this year and was struck by much better english speaking Canadians were treated than french speaking Canadians.


----------



## George Wallace

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Quite true. I spent a month in France this year and was struck by much better english speaking Canadians were treated than french speaking Canadians.



I think that rings true in Florida also.   ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Let's face it.  A few "Racist" fanatics have managed to gain positions of influence and are souring the whole nation's views of their province.  Each of these 'stupid' acts they take alienates many within their own province, but furthers their alienation by the ROC.  They are creating a society that feels downtrodden, and has developed a 'sense of entitlement'.  They feel that they are the underdogs and that their time has come to be the 'Oppressor' rather than the 'peon'.


----------



## Meridian

I know that on my two trips to Cuba,  (a place very popular with Quebec tourists), the locals often mentioned to me that they did not appreciate a lot of the attitudes the Quebecers brought with them.   I frequently heard complaints that there was no signage in French, and that the staff did not speak French,  and that just like back home, everything is in English.  (they neglected apparently the spanish everywhere).

I've noted that generally that as a culture, Quebecers are very communal, and they do tend to stick together and propogate a sort of morality and values that must be applied against all or else mass shunning commences.  In Cuba, the folks from quebec were always the loudest, and even if they didn't know one another before stepping on the plane, they all supported one anothers actions much more than the other guests who tended to stay in the loose groups they came with.

I should state that Im a fluently bilingual quebecer, and I sympathize with trying to protect Quebec culture. It certainly is distinct, at least from what I experienced growing up in Ottawa/Ontario.  But oppressing it on others, or retaliating by marking up honours to our veterans I do not agree with.


----------



## geo

Cenotaphs have been vandalized in other provinces.
Wether by graffiti or some other anti establishment slogan, the attack on the cenotaph is what I consider key.
The FLQ comment is bessides the point... dumb / ignorant students who didn't have any other catchy quip that can raise everyone's attention in one swipe of the paint brush


----------



## Col.Steiner

geo said:
			
		

> Cenotaphs have been vandalized in other provinces.
> Wether by graffiti or some other anti establishment slogan, the attack on the cenotaph is what I consider key.
> The FLQ comment is bessides the point... dumb / ignorant students who didn't have any other catchy quip that can raise everyone's attention in one swipe of the paint brush



That would be a great excuse for an antisemite spray painting swastikas on synagogues or Jewish schools - "I am just dumb and ignorant, just trying to get some attention with a swipe of a brush"! 
You give them too much leeway I think. Sure the FLQ is dead, but the hate isn't.


----------



## medaid

Just wondering if there were any updates to the Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier?

Also when would this be opened up to Tri-Service?


----------



## geo

Nope, nothing heard around here...... but the Ceremonial Guard does post people at the National War Memorial / Tomb of the unknown soldier between Victoria day & Labour day...


----------



## ENGINEERS WIFE

Port Alberni war grave markers destroyed 
Updated: Tue Apr. 14 2009 16:35:49

ctvbc.ca



Vandals have kicked to pieces 20 grave markers belonging to war dead and veterans at a Port Alberni, B.C., cemetery. The violence has devastated local veterans and their families. 


Margaret Groeneveld, a service officer at the Royal Canadian Legion, said her father is buried in the cemetery. Although his gravesite was undamaged, she became emotional as she described the impact the broken crosses would have. 


"I think it's terrible for the legion members. It's a horrendous thing to do, to have their place of rest defaced in this way," she said. "The vets defended our freedom and rights all over the world and it's on a day where another died in Afghanistan." 


The Field of Honour section of the Greenwood Cemetery is the final resting place for approximately 500 soldiers who had fought in the First and Second World Wars, the Korean War and the Vietnam War. The section is marked by a cenotaph, with each grave marked by a melamine cross and a name plate of the deceased veteran. 


The markers were discovered destroyed on Monday, reducing some visiting veterans to tears as they surveyed the damage. 


Groeneveld believes the attack was the work of young people "with nothing better to do and no respect," who go into the cemetery at night to drink and loiter. 


"I just don't know what kind of enjoyment they get out of it," she said. 


The Field of Honour was established as a place for veterans of armed conflicts from the Alberni Valley to be honoured and buried. 


Sgt. Lee Omilusik of the Port Alberni RCMP said the damaged crosses were beyond repair. There was no damage to any other part of the cemetery, he said. 


He called the attack "ludicrous." 


"It's detrimental to what we do every year on Remembrance Day. The members who took the call were pretty upset that someone would do this," he said. 


http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090414/BC_veteran_grave_vandalized_090414/20090414?hub=BritishColumbia


----------



## Michael OLeary

I would suggest fitting punishments to be a few hundred hours community service tending the cemetery, and having to take a course in Canadian Military History at a local community college. Assignments could include researching the service of those soldiers whose stones were destroyed. Probation to be extended until the course is passed at own expense.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

And to spend time with the vets of the area.


----------



## mariomike

I would like to see the police and prosecutors handle this as a hate crime.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mariomike said:
			
		

> I would like to see the police and prosecutors handle this as a hate crime.



It would first have to be established that is qualifies as a hate crime.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/



> What is a hate crime?
> CBC News Online | June 2004
> 
> The Criminal Code of Canada says *a hate crime is committed to intimidate, harm or terrify not only a person, but an entire group of people to which the victim belongs.* The victims are targeted for who they are, not because of anything they have done.
> 
> Hate crimes involve intimidation, harassment, physical force or threat of physical force against a person, a family or a property.
> 
> Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada address hate crimes.
> 
> Under Section 318, it is a criminal act to "advocate or promote genocide" - to call for, support, encourage or argue for the killing of members of a group based on colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. As of April 29, 2004, when Bill C-250, put forward by NDP MP Svend Robinson, was given royal assent, "sexual orientation" was added to that list.
> 
> Section 319 deals with publicly stirring up or inciting hatred against an identifiable group based on colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation. It is illegal to communicate hatred in a public place by telephone, broadcast or through other audio or visual means. The same section protects people from being charged with a hate crime if their statements are truthful or the expression of a religious opinion.
> 
> The law (subparagraph 718.2(a)(i), to be specific) encourages judges to consider in sentencing whether the crime was motivated by hate of: the victim's race, national or ethnic origin, language, colour, religion, sex, age, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation or any other similar factor.



More at link.


----------



## VIChris

I read about this on friday. Just disgusting,

The punishment mentioned above sounds completely fitting. I like the idea of creative justice like that. I grew up in an area with a large native community, and they practiced what they called restorative justice. I think for crimes like this, it's a good model to follow. Definitely more effective than fines and confinement.

I hope the gravesites can be accurately restored.


----------



## c_canuk

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/11/09/nb-cenotaph-vandalism-207.html
posted with usual caveats

a darned shame


----------



## X-mo-1979

It sure is.
I know NB usually has religion as a large part of any remembrance ceremony.Let's hope these people are found and charged for disrupting a religious ceremony among other things.

However they won't.And if the did get caught they would get bugger all.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I'll replace profane words with the letter X in my post.

I X'n wish I could X'n get my X'n hands on the X'n X'n X'n X X Xers who did this.

There.  I feel kinda better.

X'n cowards.


----------



## Edward Campbell

My comments are here.


----------



## FastEddy

c_canuk said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2009/11/09/nb-cenotaph-vandalism-207.html
> posted with usual caveats
> 
> a darned shame



Well I certainly hope (if they are ever identified)  they resist arrest.

It is just beyond belief that there are people out there that would commit such a sacrilege.


----------



## CEhopeful

I wish I still lived in that fine city. I would hang them my self.Disgrace. :threat:


----------



## M Feetham

When I was a kid growing up in Fredericton, my friends and I would never have thought to do something like that, and beleive me we were no angels. To purposly destroy something that represents the sacrifice the people have made is truly saddening. Is this what parents teach their children now. I hope my daughters think more highly of the things i have done during my time in the forces. This really breaks my heart. I can't even get mad about it. I can't understand it. 
Marc


----------



## VIChris

Truly disgusting. I was upset to see someone had sudsed up the pond at the Cenotaph in Langford last week, but this takes the cake. While it would be nice to just hang the rats who did this, their parents failed them to by not putting the fear of God in them regarding defacing such memorials.


----------



## Dog Walker

Looking at the photos on the different news sites, I don’t think that it was vandals. From all the staining on the bottom surface of the cross it looks like it was cracked for a long time and mostly just fell over by itself due to poor maintenance.


----------



## mariomike

Dog Walker said:
			
		

> Looking at the photos on the different news sites, I don’t think that it was vandals. From all the staining on the bottom surface of the cross it looks like it was cracked for a long time and mostly just fell over by itself due to poor maintenance.



It says, "Fredericton police are investigating." 
If it just toppled over without any human help, it is quite a co-incidence that it happened only a few days before Remembrance Day. It is understood that there were no witnesses as to exactly _when_ it toppled, but it must have been around the day it was discovered, because most war memorials are in public view. It seems these events almost always occur at night. I would be very surprised if it is not vandalism.

"Think about this:
‘It doesn’t matter if war graves are damaged
because the people are all dead anyway.’
Is your first reaction to agree or to disagree? Be honest!":
http://www.cwgc.org/education/who_cares.htm

Rant/
I hate this crime even more because our former enemies respect Canadian war graves in Germany and Japan. Yet, we can't protect their memorials here in Canada. Those memorials are all their families have in this country.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Listening to CBC on the way into work this evening that a swastika was painted on the cenotaph overnight in Woodstock, Ontario that, despite the best efforts to clean up, was visible during the ceremony today.

The Police Chief has already promised that he will make the responsible parties appear before an adhoc Veteran's committee.


----------



## mariomike

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Listening to CBC on the way into work this evening that a swastika was painted on the cenotaph overnight in Woodstock, Ontario that, despite the best efforts to clean up, was visible during the ceremony today.
> The Police Chief has already promised that he will make the responsible parties appear before an adhoc Veteran's committee.



If they like swastikas so much they should tattoo one on their foreheads. I just remembered, that's what Manson did to himself.
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2171063


----------



## old medic

Cenotaph in Ont. spray-painted with swastika
By Heather Rivers, SUN MEDIA
copy at : http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/2009/11/11/11713736.html



> WOODSTOCK, Ont. - Remembrance Day services in Woodstock were tarnished by the remnants of a swastika spray-painted overnight on the northwest side of the cenotaph.
> 
> Woodstock police chief Rod Freeman said he is calling on the public for help solve what he has called “a disgusting distraction” on the Victoria Park war memorial.
> 
> “I am certain that someone knows who is responsible for this despicable act of vandalism,” Freeman said.
> 
> Freeman said when the culprit is apprehended he will not only go before the courts he will also face a panel of veterans.
> 
> “We’ll bring this vandal before a small group of vets and they can describe their intent to the vets,” he said.
> 
> Woodstock has been plagued in recent months by vandalism involving swastikas and the word “Nazi” spray-painted on several public buildings including the art gallery.
> 
> But Freeman said he believes the cenotaph graffiti is not related to previous incidents.
> 
> “It’s another mindless individual,” he said.
> 
> Freeman said Woodstock police were alerted to the vandalism early Wednesday morning. City workers made it a priority to clean up, “out of respect for veterans.”
> 
> Branch 55 Woodstock Legion president, Howard Champeau, had to choke back tears when asked about the vandalism.
> 
> “It’s such a despicable thing I don’t understand why anybody would do a thing like that,” he said. “It really bothered an old veteran I can tell you that.”
> 
> “That’s something that should never, never happen,” he said.
> 
> Champeau noted similar vandalism had occurred on the air cadet building located on the grounds of the legion earlier this year.
> 
> Woodstock Mayor Michael Harding said he was “embarrassed, ashamed and angry” that the Nazi symbol had marred the Remembrance Day service.
> 
> “This is one of the most hated symbols, I think, in the world,” he said.
> 
> The vandalism was also duly noted by those conducting Remembrance Day Services at the cenotaph in Victoria Park.
> 
> Rev. Peter Grogan urged officials to do whatever it takes “to clean up this mess” on “the sacred stone.”
> 
> He also had a message for the culprit.
> 
> “As a Christian minister I would forgive you,” he said. “As an Irishman I would say you are the scum of the Earth."


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

This sort of behaviour is just sickening......hope the vets get 5 minutes alone the jerk(s) involved.......I will lend then a baseball bat, after I go buy it.


----------



## mariomike

Dog Walker said:
			
		

> Looking at the photos on the different news sites, I don’t think that it was vandals. From all the staining on the bottom surface of the cross it looks like it was cracked for a long time and mostly just fell over by itself due to poor maintenance.



Update:
"Cenotaph may have fallen over and not vandalized: FREDERICTON  — Police in Fredericton now say it's possible that a broken granite cross at the provincial cenotaph may have toppled on its own, rather than having been vandalized.":
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20091118/nb_cenotaph_091118/20091118?hub=Canada


----------



## vonGarvin

But it has been reported to the police, and they are acting on it.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2010/05/11/mtl-ndg-monument-vandalism.html


 to the CF Sgt who reported this!


(Mods: I did a search, and came up empty on this topic)


----------



## PMedMoe

Interview with said Sgt found here (click Scandalized Soldier):  http://www.cbc.ca/daybreakmontreal/


----------



## Journeyman

I just listened to the radio broadcast link posted by _PMedMoe_. 


*Very well done*   :nod:


----------



## Yrys

Said sergeant today :  "Update, monument: the cleaning crew was there this morning."


----------



## Bzzliteyr

I'm not too sure about that guy.. he seems kind of too good looking to be a real soldier.

On a side note, the monument was given a once over yesterday and this morning, when I drove by at 07:30, the cleaning crew was there again.

A little background from wiki: The work of sculptor David Estrom (1919), the Monument aux braves de Notre-Dame-de-Grâce stands in the middle of the Notre-Dame-de-Grace Park commemorates the combatants who died during the First and Second World Wars and the Korean War. On a gray granite circular base sits a column decorated with a bronze plate which represents a battalion moving, bayonet in first.

Google "NDG monument" to get a good feel of the reaction and coverage.

Here are the photos from last night:


----------



## vonGarvin

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure about that guy.. he seems kind of too good looking to be a real soldier.


Oh, he looks like a real soldier allright, just smaller.



;D


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Interview with said Sgt found here (click Scandalized Soldier):  http://www.cbc.ca/daybreakmontreal/



Excellent interview. Disgusting subject.
BZ to the Sgt.


----------



## TimBit

I am really not surprised. Having lived and served in Montreal, I was one of the few at my unit who commuted in uniform. As a result, I was made fun of, got insulted and thrown stuff at (like paper balls). And back in the pre-Afghanistan days, best I could do was ignore them and/or move and/or tell them gently it was not appropriate. I also got stopped by random war protesters caling me names and telling me to stop murdering [insert nationality] babies and women.

Ah, the good days... but then, I don't live there anymore!


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Oh, he looks like a real soldier allright, just smaller *and incredibly good looking*
> 
> 
> 
> ;D



There, I fixed that for you.


----------



## Yrys

Bzzliteyr,

I'm sorry to say that it's not a fix that
will hold up long, as the Technoviking
ain't one to say that kind of thing.

He ain't ArmyVern or me   !


----------



## Tank Troll

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure about that guy.. he seems kind of too good looking to be a real soldier.



I think ts is the first time I've ever heard Jonesy being describe as that  :rofl:



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> Oh, he looks like a real soldier allright, just smaller.



Of course he is short. He is a Tanker!  We're suppose to be short.


----------



## Yrys

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> I think ts is the first time I've ever heard Jonesy being describe as that



Maybe because : " He is a Tanker!", so nobody would risk saying that,
in fear of having to confront a tank   ?


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Jonesy is dead sexy, I want to have his babies...


----------



## Tank Troll

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Jonesy is dead sexy, I want to have his babies...



 ???


----------



## SeanNewman

Montreal is absolutely out of control with spray paint graffiti nowadays.

I was just there last week and it is amazing how much worse it has become since 2002 when I was posted there (St Jean) for a year.  Every single highway fence/wall or building close to any highway is completely covered.


----------



## Yrys

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Jonesy is dead sexy, I want to have his babies...



As you don't have an uterus, how do you propose to do that  ;D ?


----------



## Bzzliteyr

and every light post, and mailbox.. etc.  

They use bingo dabbers now. cheaper and easier to procure.


----------



## vonGarvin

Yrys said:
			
		

> As you don't have an uterus, how do you propose to do that  ;D ?


Adoption?


----------



## Yrys

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Adoption?



I'm not sure he can legally adopt his own kids   !


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Update:  Photos of the monument from last night.

Fact: The city of Montreal has ONE monument restorer!! That's all!


----------



## Bzzliteyr

And two from this morning, of the lone restorer and his partner who has been "training" since 2003 but hasn't been officially certified yet.


----------



## Yrys

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Fact: The city of Montreal has ONE monument restorer!! That's all!



He must be buzzy! How does he prioritize his work ?!?


----------



## Bzzliteyr

He told me he was there on Tuesday and only got the work order yesterday!!


----------



## 57Chevy

I don't know what it is like in other centers, but over here it's gotten completely out-of-hand.
I could never understand the need to have ones' name written in balloon form. Some of these guys
seem to take extreme life threatening risks just to write their names, or other mumble jumble. 
       ________________________________________________________________________
Canadian soldier tags N.D.G. vandal
 'Blaze' caught red-handed defacing war memorial:

MONTREAL - Chalk it up as a victory for the anti-graffiti movement.

Brangwyn Jones went to Notre Dame de Grâce park Saturday night to attend an Urban Arts festival organized by Prévention N.D.G., a community organization trying to stamp out unsightly graffiti in the West End neighbourhood.

The group had set up several legal "graffiti walls" to allow young artists to showcase their work and to explain to taggers that there is more to graffiti than defacing property with spray paint.

Shortly after 5 p.m., Jones watched a teenage boy approach one of the walls and spray-paint the name "Blaze" on a plywood wall. An alarm bell went off in Jones's head.

He had seen that tag before - in the very same park.

It had been several weeks earlier, after a vandal had tagged the name Blaze on the cenotaph, the war memorial that stands in the park near the corner of Girouard Ave. and Sherbrooke St. Jones, a soldier in the Canadian Forces, was one of a number of N.D.G. residents outraged by the senseless act of vandalism.

"I couldn't believe that he tagged his name in front of me," Jones recalled of Saturday's incident.

The 36-year-old soldier wasn't about to let the vandal off the hook.

He brought the teen to the attention of the event's organizers and then called Montreal police.

He decided not to approach the teenager himself in case the boy decided to flee.

"I didn't want to have to run after him," Jones said.

When police officers arrived, they spoke to the teen, took down his information and took pictures of the tag.

Police officers told Jones they would investigate.

After the incident on Saturday night, Jones walked down Sherbrooke and said he took 23 pictures of the tag Blaze spray-painted in various places. He plans to send them to the police to help with the investigation.

As part of a campaign to stamp out graffiti in the Côte des Neiges-Notre Dame de Grâce borough, borough officials announced last month that they will begin invoicing vandals for the cleanup costs of removing their graffiti.

Montreal police have been keeping a registry that lists all graffiti-related infractions and can link a graffiti vandal to several tags. The cleaning costs will be added up and a bill will be sent to the offender. If the offender is a minor, the bill will be sent to the parents.

Jones said graffiti is rampant in his neighbourhood.

"There is tagging of mailboxes and every lamppost on the road," he said.

City councillor Susan Clarke is in charge of the anti-graffiti portfolio in the borough. The invoicing process should help reduce the costs of graffiti removal, which was about $564,000 in 2009, she said.

In 2009, more than 19,000 square metres of graffiti were removed from the borough and 11 artistic murals created.

Clarke said residents should call 911 if they witness someone tagging property.

Jones said he hopes the new policy will give police and borough officials more clout in the fight against senseless tagging.

"Hopefully, he will have to pay for all the stuff he has done."
 http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Canadian+soldier+tags+vandal/3238688/story.html#ixzz0stJDKSUt
              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


----------



## Bzzliteyr

57Chevy, your topic title is incorrect.

This is a follow up article to the incident that happened in May.


----------



## 57Chevy

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> 57Chevy, your topic title is incorrect.
> 
> This is a follow up article to the incident that happened in May.


 Sorry.......I didn't notice that. Can it be moved?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just an FYI - the cenotaph/memorial vandalism threads have been pulled together into this mega-thread as a way to provide a bit of an ongoing open-source list of such incidents.

Let's hope we don't have to post any more new incidents here.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## DoyleG

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Just an FYI - the cenotaph/memorial vandalism threads have been pulled together into this mega-thread as a way to provide a bit of an ongoing open-source list of such incidents.
> 
> Let's hope we don't have to post any more new incidents here.
> 
> *Milnet.ca Staff*



First post, but sorry to dash those hopes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/11/04/calgary-poppy-plaza-defaced.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

DoyleG said:
			
		

> First post, but sorry to dash those hopes.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/11/04/calgary-poppy-plaza-defaced.html


Sigh - more on the incident:


> City and military officials are shocked after learning one of Calgary's newest war memorials was vandalized only days before Remembrance Day.
> 
> Bill Bruce, the city’s chief bylaw officer, said graffiti was sprayed across the riverside wall of Poppy Plaza on Thursday night.
> 
> Phil MacAulay, president of the No. 1 Royal Canadian Legion, said he was disappointed to learn of the damage.
> 
> “It’s bad,” MacAulay said. “It’s disrespectful.
> 
> “You just don’t think something like that would happen any time of year, but especially now.
> 
> “It’s so close to Remembrance Day, you’d think they’d know,” added MacAulay, who spent five years in the Canadian Navy. “Unfortunately, some lamebrains don’t think of the consequences or anything like that.
> 
> “They do what they do, and they have no rhyme or reason for it.” ....


Postmedia News, 5 Nov 11

Scumbags....  :rage:


----------



## gun runner

Probably some young stupid punk looking for kicks on a boring night. Sad, and will not be the last time either.   :remembrance:


----------



## DoyleG

gun runner said:
			
		

> Probably some young stupid punk looking for kicks on a boring night. Sad, and will not be the last time either.   :remembrance:



You spoke too soon.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111107/malvern-war-memorial-vandalized-again-111107/20111107/?hub=TorontoNewHome



> Four suspects were caught on camera vandalizing a war memorial in front of a Toronto school, the principal said Monday after the cenotaph was damaged ahead of Remembrance Day for the second straight year.
> 
> Toronto District School Board officials said four young men vandalized a First World War memorial in front of Malvern Collegiate, near Gerrard Street East and Main Street, on Sunday.
> 
> The head of the statue was covered in blue duct tape and it appears someone had been jumping on the statue. A woman who lives near the school noticed the damage and called police.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Minister of Veterans Affairs:


> The Honourable Steven Blaney, Minister of Veterans Affairs, today announced that the Government of Canada is supporting Private Member’s Bill C-217, which would make it an offence to commit mischief in relation to a monument that honours Canadians who died as a consequence of war.
> 
> "Our cenotaphs and monuments are powerful reminders of the sacrifices that generations of Canadians have made for the peace and freedom we enjoy today," said Minister Blaney. "Our Government is proud to support Bill C-217 which will enforce strict punishments for those who dishonour the memory of our Veterans by defacing war memorials within our communities."
> 
> The proposed bill would make it an offence to commit mischief in relation to property, buildings, or structures, including a war memorial or cenotaph, that primarily serve as a monument in honour of persons who were killed or died as a consequence of war. The bill also proposes the creation of mandatory minimum penalties that would be the same whether the Crown proceeds by indictment or by way of summary conviction: a $1,000 fine for a first offence; fourteen (14) days imprisonment for a second offence; and, thirty (30) days imprisonment for a third and subsequent offence ....


VAC news release, 8 Nov 11

More on the bill itself here.


----------



## aesop081

We have vandalism laws...........we just suck at enforcing them.

Obviously, a new law that we won't enforce is the answer.


----------



## Edward Campbell

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We have vandalism laws...........we just suck at enforcing them.
> 
> Obviously, a new law that we won't enforce is the answer.



:goodpost:


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have vandalism laws...........we just suck at enforcing them.
> 
> Obviously, a new law that we won't enforce is the answer.
> 
> 
> 
> :goodpost:
Click to expand...

:goodpost:


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A Korean War veteran living in Regina is disappointed after someone spray painted obscene graffiti on the east side of the cenotaph in Victoria Park.  Ken Garbutt says the people who did it are “idiots” and the act is sacrilegious.  The City of Regina has since cleaned it up, but Garbutt is not impressed.  “Our cemetery, the U.N. cemetery, is in Busan (City, South Korea) and you never hear of anything of this nature. They are kept in the best shape possible,” said Garbutt.  Garbutt maintains there should be stiffer penalties for people who deface war memorials ....


News Talk 980 CJME, 30 Nov 11

Veterans Affairs minister agrees it's bad:


> Canada's veterans affairs minister says every citizen has a duty to preserve the country's war memorials.
> 
> Steven Blaney says he's saddened and appalled about vandalism at a cenotaph in Regina's Victoria Park.
> 
> Someone spray-painted obscene graffiti on the east side of the monument to soldiers.
> 
> Blaney says such structures are reminders of the sacrifices that generations of Canadians have made for peace and freedom.
> 
> Blaney says the federal government supports a private member's bill that would make it an offence to commit mischief in relation to a war memorial ....


Canadian Press, 1 Dec 11

Tory MP happy to see government support new law:


> Mr. Tom Lukiwski (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, CPC):
> Mr. Speaker, across the country, our cenotaphs and monuments serve to remind Canadians of the sacrifices made so that we might live free.
> 
> I was saddened to hear news reports that a cenotaph in Regina was spray painted with graffiti. When individuals deface war memorials they dishonour the men and women who have bravely served this country and those who wear the Canadian uniform with pride today.
> 
> I am pleased that the Minister of Veteran Affairs announced that the government will be supporting Bill C-217, which would make it an offence to commit mischief in relation to a war monument. While it is unfortunate that such a bill is necessary, we have an obligation as a nation to respect and protect these monuments and to honour the sacrifices that they symbolize.
> 
> I thank the member for Dufferin--Caledon for bringing forward this legislation. I hope the individuals responsible for the vandalism to the cenotaph in Regina are found and held responsible.


----------



## 57Chevy

Early November I noticed that the bronze plaque was missing on our cenotaph. 

With some of the aluminium light posts sawn down by someone
to sell as scrap metal, I was startled and disgusted to think that somebody
would do such a thing. I checked the local newspapers and couldn't find anything about it. 
I checked it out regularly.

But then just before Remembrance day, there it was, just a shining like
someone did a whole lot of extra duties.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/09/26/girouard-park-cenotaph-vandalized.html

"My" monument got tagged again in September...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Dirtbags must be dirtbags................ :soldier:


 Stolen soldiers' grave markers sold for scrap metal 

Erica Bajer, QMI Agency

 Wednesday, February 22, 2012 07:38 PM EST 
  
ST. CATHARINES, ONT. - More than 150 metal maple leaf markers, which stand proudly alongside Canadian flags on the graves of local soldiers at Victoria Lawn Cemetery, have been stolen.
And police say the metal markers were sold for scrap.
"These people don't realize what we did for the world," veteran Harry Dobell, 91, of St. Catharines, said. "I feel very mad about it."

Dobell, who fought in the Second World War in an anti-aircraft regiment, said the metal markers commemorate the valiant efforts of the men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice in the fight for freedom.
He said they are a reminder to never forget.
Police said their investigation led them to a home on Queenston St. where some of the markers were found.

Dave Jewers, 41, and Chris Brisley, 36, each face one count of theft over $5,000, police said.
They are scheduled to appear in court in March.
Mike Gander of the Royal Canadian Legion branch 138 in Merritton, Ont., was outraged to hear about the thefts.

"These veterans gave them the privilege to be here to steal," he said of the culprits.
Gander, 61, who served in the reserves and Canadian Forces during peacetime, checked on the graves of his father and grandfathers Thursday. While the markers remained with his loved ones, some had been stolen from the graves of friends.
"Stealing from veterans' graves is just absolutely disgusting," he said.

Gander said the legion has been providing the markers for as long as he can remember. He recalled visiting the cemetery with his father as a child and seeing the metal maple leafs.
"He's probably spinning in his grave right now," Gander said of his father.
He said there are thousands of the markers in the cemetery. Older ones are made of bronze but the majority are cast aluminum, he said.

Niagara Regional Police Staff Sgt. Shawn Clarkson said the thefts were reported Tuesday around 11 a.m. and within two hours members of the street crimes unit had two suspects in their sights. He said the thefts occurred within the past week.
He credits tips from the public in helping crack the case so quickly.
Clarkson said 153 kilograms of the markers, about 80 to 90 of them, were recovered from local scrap yards. He expects the rest of the metal maple leafs will also be returned to the cemetery.

He said each maple leaf marker weighs about 2.25 kg and the newer ones cost $50 each to make.
Clarkson said the tips didn't come from the scrap yards. However, the businesses did co-operate with police during the investigation.
"They are unique and there are some questions they (scrap yards) will have to answer," he said.
He said the Canadian flags that accompany the markers were discarded in a heap in the cemetery.

"They are going after the metal. It's not just metal to citizens, it's something else -- it's something symbolic that shouldn't be touched," he said. "It's quite disturbing to have this happen to fallen soldiers' graves."
Cemetery services supervisor Tim Lagace said this is the first time he can recall a theft of this sort happening locally.
"We haven't had any vandalism here in a number of years," he said.

He said a member of the grounds crew noticed the missing markers and contacted police.
"We're just in the process of putting them back on the graves," he said, noting staff was happy to help return the markers.

ebajer@stcatharinesstandard.ca


----------



## OldSolduer

These two should be publicly shamed if convicted.


The scrapyards, if they knowingly bought stolen property, should be made to pay for the replacement markers.


Scum. Dirt. Trash.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> These two should be publicly shamed if convicted.
> 
> 
> The scrapyards, if they knowingly bought stolen property, should be made to pay for the replacement markers.
> 
> 
> Scum. Dirt. Trash.



Yes, they are Scum. Dirt. Trash and POS.

This crap is rampant in the UK as well.  Their British cousins both thieves and dealers have been working over cenotaphs and other memorials from one end of the island to the other.  For people like these the use of stocks should be re-instituted, at places where they are guaranteed to have the maximum exposure to the elements and people's scorn.  I'd gladly buy some rotten tomatoes to share with them.   :rage:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pretty.  F****ing.  Low.


----------



## Rifleman62

These two guys see the government (VAC, SISIP) stealing from soldiers everyday, so they figured they could get away with it also.


> Scum. Dirt. Trash.


 the two guys and those responsible for stealing daily from CF members and Veterans.


----------



## TN2IC

Disgusting... all I can say.


----------



## Petard

Fair amount of vandalism against armouries and SMP vehicles on the rise in this area too, not sure what that says, nothing good to be sure


----------



## wildman0101

F/N A Jim S.


----------



## Loachman

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'd gladly buy some rotten tomatoes to share with them.



Fresh sting more.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

So half of them rotten and the other half fresh?


----------



## OldSolduer

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> So half of them rotten and the other half fresh?



With some small rocks included.


----------



## 57Chevy

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> So half of them rotten and the other half fresh?



mixed with beets.


----------



## ModlrMike

I won't name names here, but it appears they've been identified:

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/22/stolen-soldiers-grave-markers-sold-for-scrap-metal

We'll keep in mind that the courts have to process any charges yet...


----------



## jollyjacktar

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I won't name names here, but it appears they've been identified:
> 
> http://www.torontosun.com/2012/02/22/stolen-soldiers-grave-markers-sold-for-scrap-metal
> 
> We'll keep in mind that the courts have to process any charges yet...


These shitbirds were identified at the top of the page in the story.


----------



## ModlrMike

D'oh... remedial reading for me!


----------



## gun runner

Brothers and Sisters, these two meatheads will get some stern words from the judge, and probably a fine, but it will end there. The 'system' is too broken to give the punishment that these two deserve. I am sure this will quickly die in the nations press, due to lack of interest( no blood, guts, or other news worthy stuff). It seems that the Forces as a whole will continue to take a backseat in the news as long as our troops are not dying in some battle. Domestic incidents don't garner much interest, and take a back page.


----------



## S.Stewart

That's just low, no words other than that.


----------



## Pro Patria 72

16 May and we are still going to court , as observers, to this dispicable act.


----------



## OldSolduer

Pro Patria 72 said:
			
		

> 16 May and we are still going to court , as observers, to this dispicable act.



Are you going with medals on to send a message that decorated veterans are concerned?


----------



## Pro Patria 72

Medals and Association Dress! Legion Members present as well, all in uniform and medals.


----------



## OldSolduer

Pro Patria 72 said:
			
		

> Medals and Association Dress! Legion Members present as well, all in uniform and medals.



Well done!! 

As an aside, 80% of what we learn is visual. MAYBE the judge will get the message that we are not taking this lightly.


----------



## m2austin

For in the future - if there is any theft of metal memorabilia or cenotaph metals, make sure that the reporting officer lists the theft on http://www.scraptheftalert.com/ . 

Every scrapper who owns a shop and who works with the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries (ISRI) will get alerts about theft of this nature and other theft from job sites.

Most of the yards I know of down in Southern Ontario know each other and know how sleezy the other guy can be. Sadly, if one owner makes a stand and decides s/he will not buy (as an example) burned copper wire because of the pollution the seller caused in burning the wire (dioxin aka 'that poisonous stuff in Agent Orange'), the seller will leave and the crooked yard will pick up the stuff.

Over time evolution in the marketplace will get rid of these sleezebag dealers as those people of honour conduct more legitimate business.

Still, make sure it gets reported and good luck in seeking justice through this trial.

-M


----------



## bridges

Not sure if this is the right section of army.ca for this news item; if not, feel free to move it.

I was at the unveiling of this monument last fall; Marc Leger's parents were there, and the CDS, Comds & CWOs of army, navy & air force, etc.   It was a nice ceremony.

I wonder if there's a way to brace things like this so they're harder to topple over?  

Reproduced here under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2012/06/28/ottawa-legion-vandalism-inukshuk-toppled.html



> An Inukshuk dedicated to Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan was toppled over outside the Royal Canadian Legion headquarters in Ottawa.
> 
> A vandal knocked over the heavy stone sculpture at the headquarters in the Ottawa neighbourhood of Kanata sometime Wednesday night or early Thursday morning.
> 
> It was donated in September by Claire and Richard Leger, the parents of Marc Leger, a soldier killed in the so-called "friendly fire" incident in Afghanistan in 2002.
> 
> Members of the Royal Canadian Legion in Kanata discovered the toppled Inukshuk Thursday morning. (Waubgeshig Rice/CBC)Bob Butt, the Royal Canadian Legion's director of outreach, said he notified police and also told Leger's parents, who he said were shocked when he told them about the vandalism.
> 
> "I think a lot of people take it very personally ... especially those who have lost friends in Afghanistan. I know the Royal Canadian Legion takes it very personally," said Butt.
> 
> He is asking the vandals to come forward to face justice.
> 
> Reward offered on Twitter
> Former star on CBC's The Dragon Den, W. Brett Wilson, tweeted out late Thursday he would reward anyone who would help find the vandals.
> 
> "Please RT if you support - I will put up $1,000 as a reward to find vandals who wrecked a soldier's memorial in Ottawa," he wrote.
> 
> Veterans Affairs Canada also released a statement on the vandalism. A spokesman for Steven Blaney, minister of Veterans Affairs, called the act "heartless vandalism" and "truly unacceptable".
> 
> "The individual or individuals who defaced this statue should be ashamed of themselves. They have dishonoured the men and women who bravely made the ultimate sacrifice in defence of peace, freedom and democracy," said Jean-Christophe de la Rue.



Edited for spelling


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumped with some of the latest - no further movement forward on a proposed Private Member's Bill making life harder on folks found guilty of damaging war memorials/cenotaphs.

Debate in the House of Commons from yesterday here, more on the proposed bill here.

From the debate, out of the mouth of a Tory MP, maybe explaining why the Liberals and NDP didn't agree to move this one forward?


> .... The government moved an amendment at committee, which was accepted, to adjust the maximum penalty under indictment from five years to ten years. This is a technical amendment to keep the bill in line with the rest of the Criminal Code section on mischief. It was suggested by officials of the Minister of Justice and I am grateful for his intervention and support.  It must be pointed out that both opposition parties voted against the government's amendment and against the bill itself at committee. That says to me that they are not interested in seeking to deter individuals from damaging our most honoured places ....


----------



## Edward Campbell

In my opinion it is a mistake to single out some aspects of an activity for _special_ treatment; thus I disapprove of "hate crimes," especially "hate speech." A crime is a crime - the fact that the perpetrator may have some special animus towards the victim doesn't make the crime more or less worthy of punishment. Speech is speech; if it is a lie then there are legal remedies; if it is insulting then it needs to be countered through argument, not law. Mischief and vandalism already exist - a cenotaph doesn't need, or deserve, more _protection_ than, say, a statue of a distinguished poet or politician.


----------



## George Wallace

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In my opinion it is a mistake to single out some aspects of an activity for _special_ treatment; thus I disapprove of "hate crimes," especially "hate speech." A crime is a crime - the fact that the perpetrator may have some special animus towards the victim doesn't make the crime more or less worthy of punishment. Speech is speech; if it is a lie then there are legal remedies; if it is insulting then it needs to be countered through argument, not law. Mischief and vandalism already exist - a cenotaph doesn't need, or deserve, more _protection_ than, say, a statue of a distinguished poet or politician.



To further ERC's sentiments, there is a similarity here with what is going on in the UK at the moment.  Here is a link to a speech on freedom of speech made by Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean) in reference to changes to the legislation in the UK.


  

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/rowan-atkinson-england-and-freedom-speech


----------



## Remius

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In my opinion it is a mistake to single out some aspects of an activity for _special_ treatment; thus I disapprove of "hate crimes," especially "hate speech." A crime is a crime - the fact that the perpetrator may have some special animus towards the victim doesn't make the crime more or less worthy of punishment. Speech is speech; if it is a lie then there are legal remedies; if it is insulting then it needs to be countered through argument, not law. Mischief and vandalism already exist - a cenotaph doesn't need, or deserve, more _protection_ than, say, a statue of a distinguished poet or politician.



I disagree.  While a crime is a crime some are more disgusting or heinous than others even if they meet the same definition if they are the same crime.  There is a difference between vandalising a cenotaph and vandalising a bus shelter.  Both are vandalism and both are crimes.  But it is what the cenotaph represents that makes it different.  As well as the public reaction to such a thing.  Look what happened with that guy who urinated on the National War Memorial that Canada Day.  Urinating in Public.  That's all he's guilty of.  Yet this forum was rife with comments about placing guards 24/7 and ultimately led to sentries and commissionaires being posted there during the summer months.  Some were calling for far worse than that...

Our justice system is full of examples where we treat crimes that are essentially the same differently.  Murder is murder yet we define it differently based on the situation.  And a lot of that has to do with how society reacts to that.

"Hate crimes" are exactly that.  They need to be singled to show that not only is the crime not acceptable but also that the motive behind is something that deserves special treatment.  Because people who commit those acts justify it in there own set of twisted values which we label as "hate", we must as a society make a statement about that.


----------



## mariomike

Crantor said:
			
		

> Look what happened with that guy who urinated on the National War Memorial that Canada Day.  Urinating in Public.  That's all he's guilty of.



This guy claimed ( in 2006 ) "that he was too drunk to realize he was urinating on a war memorial."

But, the judge did not buy it:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2006/08/24/sudbury-urinate.html


----------



## George Wallace

Crantor said:
			
		

> I disagree.  While a crime is a crime some are more disgusting or heinous than others even if they meet the same definition if they are the same crime.  There is a difference between vandalising a cenotaph and vandalising a bus shelter.  Both are vandalism and both are crimes.  But it is what the cenotaph represents that makes it different.  As well as the public reaction to such a thing.  Look what happened with that guy who urinated on the National War Memorial that Canada Day.  Urinating in Public.  That's all he's guilty of.  Yet this forum was rife with comments about placing guards 24/7 and ultimately led to sentries and commissionaires being posted there during the summer months.  Some were calling for far worse than that...
> 
> Our justice system is full of examples where we treat crimes that are essentially the same differently.  Murder is murder yet we define it differently based on the situation.  And a lot of that has to do with how society reacts to that.
> 
> "Hate crimes" are exactly that.  They need to be singled to show that not only is the crime not acceptable but also that the motive behind is something that deserves special treatment.  Because people who commit those acts justify it in there own set of twisted values which we label as "hate", we must as a society make a statement about that.



You seem to have a very "Black and White - NO SHADES OF GRAY" opinion of the Justice System.  Look at the Courts and the judgments laid down by them.   No two are alike.  The legal system has a punishment for every crime; however, there is no FIXED punishment for each crime, but a range between maximum and minimum punishments, or complete forgiveness, by which a Court can decide.   Life is like that.  No two of us are identical in physique, mental processes, health, wealth, whatever.  No two crimes are identical, nor are their punishments.


----------



## Remius

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You seem to have a very "Black and White - NO SHADES OF GRAY" opinion of the Justice System.  Look at the Courts and the judgments laid down by them.   No two are alike.  The legal system has a punishment for every crime; however, there is no FIXED punishment for each crime, but a range between maximum and minimum punishments, or complete forgiveness, by which a Court can decide.   Life is like that.  No two of us are identical in physique, mental processes, health, wealth, whatever.  No two crimes are identical, nor are their punishments.



Um, no.  That's not what I was disagreeing with at all.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  I was disagreeing with E.R. because he said that a crime is a crime and no special distinction or protection should be given to "Hate crime" or vandalism of cenotaphs.


----------



## George Wallace

Crantor said:
			
		

> Um, no.  That's not what I was disagreeing with at all.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  I was disagreeing with E.R. because he said that a crime is a crime and no special distinction or protection should be given to "Hate crime" or vandalism of cenotaphs.



Ummm?  I am reading ERC as saying the opposite.  The distinction between a "Hate crime" and "vandalism" is not cut and dried.  One can not go calling everything one or the other.  The lines are blurred at times.


Anyway......my head hurts..... :stars:



 ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell

From Parliament: Bill C-217, making it a Criminal Code offence to damage war memorials, passed 3rd Reading in the Commons, 181 to 98, with the NDP opposed.


----------



## Haletown

"with the NDP opposed."

'nuff said.


----------



## my72jeep

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> From Parliament: Bill C-217, making it a Criminal Code offence to damage war memorials, passed 3rd Reading in the Commons, 181 to 98, with the NDP opposed.


OK is it just me or does this say the whole NDP Party to a minister went against this bill? and what was the reason?


----------



## Edward Campbell

The NDP has 100 members, I'm guessing a few were absent and the other 90+ opposed the motion. I don't know how Elizabeth May, the four BQ members, and the two Independents voted.


----------



## Danjanou

I think a wee chat with my NDP MP this Nov 11th after he lays the wreath is now in order.


----------



## my72jeep

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I think a wee chat with my NDP MP this Nov 11th after he lays the wreath is now in order.


I agree wholeheartedly. my area voted one in at both levels


----------



## fraserdw

All the independents, whose parties we are not required to name, voted for C-217


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> From Parliament: Bill C-217, making it a Criminal Code offence to damage war memorials, passed 3rd Reading in the Commons, 181 to 98, with the NDP opposed.


Have tried to find who voted in the benches of the opposition without success in the HoC website.  Is that the right place to look?  I'm curious if Peter Stoffer voted, Nay.


----------



## Edward Campbell

The _Hansard_ from today will not be available until tomorrow afternoon; it will provide the definitive answer.


----------



## Journeyman

While I still believe that it's a wasted law, NDP opposition isn't remotely surprising -- a large number of their supporters can only express themselves through spray paint.....and it's their "right" to vandalize others' and public properties.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thank you, E.R.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The _Hansard_ from today will not be available until tomorrow afternoon; it will provide the definitive answer.


The transcript from today's debate will be ready tomorrow, but those keeners behind the scenes on The Hill already have the Journal report done for today's debate, including who voted which way - see attached.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Joe Comartin and Brian Masse both voted no. They are the first two to push their way to the podium on Remembrance Day. They are the local Federal guys.

For two years Comartin's name has been called and he's not there. He doesn't show up after accepting the invite.

Masse tells the same story every year, about sitting around the table with his Vet grandfather. We time his speech. It doesn't change. He goes through motions and doesn't care.

Both these guys show up in the armouries. The JR's ignore them, the WOs & Sgts ignore them.

No one talks to them. After this vote, I'm going to encourage our younger members to ask them for their views and why they fail to respect the sanctity of our memorials.


----------



## JorgSlice

recceguy said:
			
		

> Joe Comartin and Brian Masse both voted no. They are the first two to push their way to the podium on Remembrance Day. They are the local Federal guys.
> 
> For two years Comartin's name has been called and he's not there. He doesn't show up after accepting the invite.
> 
> Masse tells the same story every year, about sitting around the table with his Vet grandfather. We time his speech. It doesn't change. He goes through motions and doesn't care.
> 
> Both these ****s show up in the armouries. The JR's ignore them, the WOs & Sgts ignore them.
> 
> No one talks to them. After this vote, I'm going to encourage our younger members to ask them for their views and why they fail to respect the sanctity of our memorials.



That's, F******* sad. I can just see them now, voting down this bill... but let's say a Jack Layton memorial was vandalized... or some BS granola-hemp-tree-hugging-memorial is even spotted with a piece of litter next to it (blown in halfway across the country), they'd order up the guns.

I just... WHY.   (loss of words)

I think we are the only remaining civilized country that does not have any laws the protect the vandalism of the memorials dedicate the men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice. No, scratch that, even uncivilized countries have better respect for their war dead and memorials.


----------



## Jarnhamar

These douchbags vandalizing  cenotaphs and memorials don't bother me as much anymore-in a way I'm actually glad.

In my opinion the anger and disgust most people express over this disrespect move them to remember the sacrifices paid much more than just throwing on a poppy every November. Its easy to pass these stone monuments everyday and start to forget what they stand for.
I'm glad it makes the citizens we defend so angry.


----------



## The Bread Guy

According to Hansard, no debate yesterday, just the vote.


----------



## Edward Campbell

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> According to Hansard, no debate yesterday, just the vote.




Correct; it was 3rd reading - debate was possible, it's always possible, but, normally, 3rd reading occurs after debates in 1st and 2nd readings and after debates and votes on amendments in 2nd reading and after committee review so debate is, again normally, pointless.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Correct; it was 3rd reading - debate was possible, it's always possible, but, normally, 3rd reading occurs after debates in 1st and 2nd readings and after debates and votes on amendments in 2nd reading and after committee review so debate is, again normally, pointless.


I stand further educated - thanks for that.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Have tried to find who voted in the benches of the opposition without success in the HoC website.  Is that the right place to look?  I'm curious if Peter Stoffer voted, Nay.


Apparently he did.
What up with that??


----------



## Edward Campbell

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Apparently he did.
> What up with that??




Possible a three line whip vote.


----------



## Occam

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Have tried to find who voted in the benches of the opposition without success in the HoC website.  Is that the right place to look?  I'm curious if Peter Stoffer voted, Nay.



http://openparliament.ca/ is a good alternative to the recently closed http://www.howdtheyvote.ca/.  Details on this particular vote are here - http://openparliament.ca/bills/votes/41-1/487/


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Possible a three line whip vote.


?  As in being P-whipped?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Some votes are "free" - members may vote, or not, as they please; some are _whipped_ to varying degrees - a three line whip is *compulsory* to attend, one must vote the party line and real punishments will follow if one "refuses" the whip. (one and two line whips are less onerous.) See here for lots of UFI about whips.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thanks E.R. for the clarification on the whips and chains of our elected MPs.  I have written Mr. Stoffer and have yet to receieve a reply, on why?.


----------



## Edward Campbell

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Thanks E.R. for the clarification on the whips and chains of our elected MPs.  I have written Mr. Stoffer and have yet to receieve a reply, on why?.




In fairness to Mr. Stoffer, or any NDP member, if it was a three line whip then the consequences of "voting his conscience" or "voting his constituents' interests" may have had consequences that would severely limit his effectiveness as a constituency MP - especially on a bill about which many people, including me, agree with JM:



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> While I still believe that it's a wasted law, NDP opposition isn't remotely surprising -- a large number of their supporters can only express themselves through spray paint.....and it's their "right" to vandalize others' and public properties.



Now, I am not a populist so I don't believe your MP owes you a duty to vote as you please:

_“If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong”_
Edmund Burke: Speech To The Electors Of Bristol


----------



## Kat Stevens

Ah democracy... "represent your constituents, until Fearless Leader tells you otherwise"


----------



## PanaEng

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> These douchbags vandalizing  cenotaphs and memorials don't bother me as much anymore-in a way I'm actually glad.
> 
> In my opinion the anger and disgust most people express over this disrespect move them to remember the sacrifices paid much more than just throwing on a poppy every November. Its easy to pass these stone monuments everyday and start to forget what they stand for.
> I'm glad it makes the citizens we defend so angry.


Good take on it. Very true.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Ah democracy... "represent your constituents, until Fearless Leader tells you otherwise"




Again, in fairness, in a system as _revolutionary_ as ours, where the government can be tossed out on the street when it loses the _confidence_ of the Commons, whipped votes on confidence issues, budgets, for example, are critical. In this particular case, and again because I agree with JM on this being a "wasted law," I am somewhat dismayed that any party would bother to whip the vote. This was not, _Constitutionally_, a confidence issue - even if it had been in the Throne Speech; a Canadian PM need not resign when a private member's bill, even one supported by his government, fails. Thomas Mulcair whipped the vote to keep his team focused on *opposing* and on being seen to *oppose*; the situation is different, but he remembers the price he and Jack Layton extracted, at the polls, from the Liberals for having supported the Conservative minority government too often.


----------



## Kat Stevens

ER, I understand the strategy and tactics behind it, but I guess I'm still naive enough to think the guy I elect is _supposed to be,_ there to represent my interests, not what his boss tells him my interests are... ah well, ignorance is bliss, and I'm one of the most blissed out guys you'll ever meet.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'm with Kat.  I always thought our form of government was based on the democracy that grew from the Ancient Greek city states.  In the early days it was a direct democracy where everyone was represented by themselves and had a voice.  When that grew beyond that practicality it evolved into a representational democracy wherein the Representative voiced the concerns of those who put him there for that purpose.  Silly me, I was always under the apparent misunderstanding that my MP is there to be my voice in the HoC as that was the model our system was based upon.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with Edmund Burke and I suppose by extension you as well E.R. however much I do respect your opinions.  It is to me, vox populi, the peasants may be revolting in their understanding and opinions (pardon the pun) but Mr. MP is there to speak and act on their behalf *not* to be his own or the Parties man per se, at least in my world view.  And I do as a voter express my delight and dismay by word of mouth and by deed each election upon those who are my representative in the various levels of government.


----------



## Edward Campbell

But put yourself in Burke's shoes, please: when your conscience, or your good judgement, or your knowledge of the full scope and details of a problem tells you that your constituents are wrong then should you really vote as they wish? It doesn't have to be in a parliament: suppose you are on a ship or unit committee, the people you _represent_ say "we want _this_" but you have looked at the budget and at the regulations and you know you mates are wrong - sincere, but wrong - what do you say? How do you vote in that committee: as "they" wish or in a manner which you know to be responsible and best for everyone.


----------



## Kat Stevens

So my opinion only matters when it agrees with my selected representative's personal beliefs?  Have the lawyers been made aware of this concept?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> So my opinion only matters when it agrees with my selected representative's personal beliefs?  Have the lawyers been made aware of this concept?




That what Burke said nor is it what I am suggesting. Your MP *represents* everyone in his riding, regardless of status, party loyalty or anything else. But representing does not involve consulting the constituency on every issue. You voted for him, hopefully, because he and his party came closest to sharing your values ... but it will be vary rare to find any elected representative who has *exactly* the same views on every issue and any of the people (s)he represents. Your MP can and, in my opinion, should:

1. Consider, always, the best interests of his constituency but, usually he will have to adopt a _utilitarian_ approach to do that ~ the greatest good for the greatest number sort of thing;

2. Vote his party's position - the one on which he ran and the one one which he got elected - whenever he, in good conscience and with due consideration of the needs of his constituency, can; and

3. Always vote as his conscience (his honour or integrity or whatever term you want to use) dictates.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But put yourself in Burke's shoes, please: when your conscience, or your good judgement, or your knowledge of the full scope and details of a problem tells you that your constituents are wrong then should you really vote as they wish? It doesn't have to be in a parliament: suppose you are on a ship or unit committee, the people you _represent_ say "we want _this_" but you have looked at the budget and at the regulations and you know you mates are wrong - sincere, but wrong - what do you say? How do you vote in that committee: as "they" wish or in a manner which you know to be responsible and best for everyone.


I have stood on many committees over the years.  And as I was there to represent as voice for the others, I acted as such inasmuch as I made it clear what their wishes and desires were.  You're right it was not always possible to give them what they wanted for various reasons, however, their voice was heard by proxy through me.  

If my wishes and beliefs do not concur with the majority of my fellow citizens, that's just TFB for me on this occasion.  Things won't always jive with the herd, if they do then that's golden.  But, however, if whomever is sent to Ottawa to stand in my stead is going to do as he's damn well told by the Party or what he wants to do all the time what's the sense of having our present form of democracy?  It then ceases to be representational and is less than democratic in my view.


----------



## Tank Troll

All this being said I'm going to ask Meagan Leslie why she voted against it. She comes out to support us on a regular basis and constantly profess her admiration of our veterans.


----------



## hagan_91

http://www.680news.com/news/local/article/421128--toronto-war-memorial-vandalized-in-hate-crime-police-say

Scum walk among us.


----------



## hagan_91

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/12/coronation-park-war-memorial-defaced-canada-will-burn-praise-allah

Much more in depth.


----------



## brihard

The police officer quoted in that story may be a bit out of his depth on the 'hate crime' laws. Such laws are very limited. First and foremost, you can only really be brought up on 'hate crimes' if you're *inciting* hatred, which 'Canada will burn, praise Allah' definitely doesn't equate to.

Under the sentencing principles that can increase a sentence for other offense if hate is a motivation, 'veterans' wouldn't be categorized as one of our enumerated 'identifiable groups' for such laws- nor would the language used in this case of vandalism be bale to be deemed to be distinctly targeted at veterans, either.

So hate crime? No, not in any way that matters under the law. Legally this should be treated as would any other vandalism case.

Still scum though.


----------



## hagan_91

Saying Canada will burn is hate, and is said by only enemies and traitors to this country in my opinion. Its these people who conspire to kill hundreds and thousands of inoccent people in our own backyards, while they benefit from our ways of life, and freedoms. Makes me sick.

RIP to the soldiers   :brit poppy:


----------



## Rheostatic

Occam said:
			
		

> http://openparliament.ca/ is a good alternative to the recently closed http://www.howdtheyvote.ca/.  Details on this particular vote are here - http://openparliament.ca/bills/votes/41-1/487/


This link includes the statements made in Parliament: http://openparliament.ca/bills/41-1/C-217/?page=1
The NDP vote has more to do with opposition to minimum sentencing than anything else.


----------



## brihard

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Saying Canada will burn is hate, and is said by only enemies and traitors to this country in my opinion. Its these people who conspire to kill hundreds and thousands of inoccent people in our own backyards, while they benefit from our ways of life, and freedoms. Makes me sick.
> 
> RIP to the soldiers   :brit poppy:



I'm not saying it's not hateful. I'm saying it's not a hate crime under Canadian law. There's a distinction.


----------



## George Wallace

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'm not saying it's not hateful. I'm saying it's not a hate crime under Canadian law. There's a distinction.



Well; the latest news out of Toronto is that they ARE treating it as a "Hate Crime".


Short sound bite on the radio this morning mentioned that there were protesters at the the Remembrance Day Ceremonies in Toronto who were stopped by people attending the ceremony.  It was mentioned that these protesters were women who were Afghan immigrants/refugees.  All I can think of, is that this is like biting the hand that feeds you and WTF is going through your minds?

[edit to add]

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *WORLD NEWS *
> 
> *Remembrance Day protest an insult to Canada's war dead
> *
> First posted: Monday, November 12, 2012 09:58 PM EST | Updated: Monday, November 12, 2012 10:22 PM EST
> 
> By Joe Warmington ,Toronto Sun
> 
> 
> LINK
> 
> It was spitting in the faces of Canada's 158 Afghanistan war dead and the thousands who fell in wars before them.
> 
> And done on the very day families were tearfully remembering them.
> 
> It was also grossly disrespectful to a group of veterans — aged 80 to 90 — from both World War II and the Korean War.
> 
> It was disgusting.
> 
> But freedom can be as ugly in what it must tolerate as this protest on Remembrance Day at Old City Hall was crass.
> 
> Interesting that much of this disrespect came from, seemingly, some of the very people who should have been at this ceremony saying thank you.
> 
> Instead they attempted to ruin it.
> 
> "I cannot, and will not, be silent in a ceremony used to glorify Canada¹s mission in Afghanistan, where many of my fellow Afghans were detained,
> tortured and killed because of the Canadian military," explained Suraia
> 
> Sahar in an e-mail to Newstalk 1010 reporter Siobhan Morris, as well as Showgram host Jim Richards and producers Jessie Lorraine and Jordan Whelan.
> 
> Sahar wrote she and friend Laila were protesting because "there is no honour" in Remembrance Day.
> 
> "As an Afghan Canadian my anger can be justified," she wrote. "But I faced enough verbal abuse by racist, angry old white people telling me to go back
> to my country, and that the Canadian military should kill more Afghans."
> 
> We have free speech here. But we also have innocent until proven guilty.
> 
> Should the police officer so concerned about a citizen filming their protest, have also checked to see if there were Taliban sympathizers at this protest?
> 
> The deadly Taliban, after all, is our enemy and responsible for many deaths.
> 
> One thing for sure is the Taliban would not have tolerated the same kind of shouting from these women at one of their important traditional ceremonies.
> 
> But freedom of speech allows Suraia and Laila the freedom to be at this ceremony and entitles them to say whatever they want — with or without
> class, respect, accuracy or manners.
> 
> The war dead gave them that right — and the right of many women in Afghanistan to attend school and have a chance at a free life.
> 
> A second part of this story is the freedom to cover such a protest. Newstalk 1010's Morris did a great job of capturing the commotion — as did citizen
> journalist Derek Soberal, a throwback character from the G20 and Occupy Toronto.
> 
> "I was just down there to pay my respects when I saw this dispute developing," he said.
> 
> He took out his cellphone and captured the women yelling, as well as an arrest of an individual.
> 
> He says he was threatened to be arrested by a police officer who Soberal claims demanded he send him the video.
> 
> Post G20 — where accredited journalists, photographers and cameramen were arrested, detained, punched, had guns pointed at them and threatened — there
> needs to be some clarification on what are the exact rules.
> 
> What law is it that states shooting or videoing in public is a crime? Are police, without a warrant, able to retrieve someone¹s camera?
> 
> Are they able to erase images from someone¹s camera?
> 
> There doesn't seem to be a censorship law but still there are many stories like Soberal's, and like the one in the YMCA arrest captured on phones
> currently before the courts, where people claim they have had their cameras confiscated and had images deleted.
> 
> "I have had two cameras broken by police," said Soberal.
> 
> Just a reminder to those who need to be reminded, it's not a police state but one that celebrates the freedom of speech and the press that has been
> won thanks to the sacrifice by thousands of Canadians lying in graves around the world.
> 
> If these women supporting the Taliban¹s position are entitled to spoil a service for those who choose to remember them, a citizen capturing them do
> that is okay too.
> 
> We can¹t do anything to stop people from desecrating the graves of our fallen other than to remember them and hang on to what it is they died for.


----------



## Jarnhamar

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/12/coronation-park-war-memorial-defaced-canada-will-burn-praise-allah
> 
> Much more in depth.



While this may not fall under the 'traditional' hate crime as per our definition I would go so far as to say it is a hate crime against Muslims.



> a hate crime is committed to* intimidate, harm or terrify not only a person, but an entire group of people* to which the victim belongs. The victims are* targeted for who they are, not because of anything they have done.*
> 
> A hate crime is one in which hate is the motive and can involve intimidation, harassment, physical force or threat of physical force against a person, a group or a property



By the vandal singing their work praise Allah they are causing grief and ill feelings towards Canadian-Muslims as an entire group of people, especially considering what was written and when.


----------



## Hawk

On the other hand, I noticed several Muslim women at the ceremony in Halifax, wearing hijab, and poppies.

Hawk


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the PS for Vets Affairs on the Toronto memorial defacing:


> On behalf of the Honourable Steven Blaney, Minister of Veterans Affairs, Eve Adams, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Member of Parliament for Mississauga–Brampton South, today inspected the recently vandalized Victory Peace War Memorial at Coronation Park.
> 
> “Our cenotaphs and war memorials are powerful symbols of our national remembrance and must be respected and maintained,” said Minister Blaney. “Disgraceful and disrespectful acts of vandalism like this need to be addressed. That is why our Government is proud to support Bill C-217, which will increase penalties for those convicted of these heinous crimes.”
> 
> “Seeing our local war memorials treated with such disrespect is incredibly troubling, especially on such an important day of national remembrance,” said Parliamentary Secretary Adams. “I am pleased to be here today to see that this memorial has been restored to its honoured state.”
> 
> Through the Cenotaph/Monument Restoration Program, the Government of Canada partners with community groups and local organizations to ensure that cenotaphs and monuments honouring our nation's heroes are conserved to the highest standard of care and dignity.
> 
> Applications to this program can be submitted at any time during the year. Interested non-profit groups and other organizations may be eligible for funding. To learn more about Veterans Affairs Canada’s Cenotaph/Monument Restoration Program and other programs and services, visit veterans.gc.ca.


----------



## Danjanou

Hawk said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I noticed several Muslim women at the ceremony in Halifax, wearing hijab, and poppies.
> 
> Hawk



I noticed a couple of female cadets wearing the Hijab at the parade I was at on Sunday. I also spent most of last week poppying in a predominatley South Asian/Muslim part of Toronto ( Malls and Subway stations in East Toronto) and many woman in Hijabs and Bhurqas approached me for poppies for them and/or  their children.  All were respectful  and some newer immigrants did ask the sgnificance of the poppy  and after I explained it they readily contributed  and wore their poppies with pride. On Thursday we had a young man come into the Legion and request a counter box for their Mosque as they felt they should do so as he explained it to be part of the community. 

I won't tar or condemn an entire community or religion on the actions of a few asswits.


----------



## jollyjacktar

:goodpost:

I agree.  There's plenty of asswits from the other side of the street too.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231660/Free-speech-row-man-ARRESTED-posting-image-burning-Poppy-Facebook-page-Remembrance-Sunday.html

and the douche that Macy posted about pulling flags and given the finger to the camera.

I'm pleased to hear, however, the support you came across from the Islamic community, Danjanou.


----------



## JorgSlice

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well; the latest news out of Toronto is that they ARE treating it as a "Hate Crime".
> 
> 
> Short sound bite on the radio this morning mentioned that there were protesters at the the Remembrance Day Ceremonies in Toronto who were stopped by people attending the ceremony.  It was mentioned that these protesters were women who were Afghan immigrants/refugees.  All I can think of, is that this is like biting the hand that feeds you and WTF is going through your minds?



With all due respect, would it be so hard for the government or even a third-party rally some funds together and erect a memorial something along the lines of "In memory of the innocent Afghans that met an untimely death during ... etc. in the crossfire, and the hand of the Taliban etc. ... vision of a stronger, safer, renewed future for Afghanistan."?

Not only did they get caught in the crossfire (or munitions drop error), but the Taliban slaughtered plenty of them. We've got dedications to the people of France, Holland, wouldn't be surprised if there was one of the Bosnians... why not for the Afghans? It would put MANY people at ease (especially at the peak of hate towards the "HarpoCon Police State Dictatorship"  : )

HOWEVER, it is downright disrespectful what they did. Any other day, would have been fine, but Remembrance Day... WOW


----------



## ModlrMike

It wouldn't matter. The people who desecrate cenotaphs are likely convinced that the majority of Afghan deaths were caused by NATO. Contrary evidence notwithstanding.


----------



## hagan_91

HOWEVER, it is downright disrespectful what they did. Any other day, would have been fine, but Remembrance Day... WOW


How can you say on any other day it would be fine? Its never OK to vandalize a memorial. Period. There should be no room for people like this here. Way to many snakes getting through the cracks of our open door policy.  :facepalm:


----------



## Edward Campbell

Actually, it's most appropriate on Remembrance Day. Maybe in addition to remembering those who died we might also spare a thought for why they went to war in the first place.

I'm not talking about the individual motives - which are as many and as varied as the the nearly two million men and women who have gone to wars on Canada's behalf; rather I'm talking about our _national_ motives. We knew, before September 1939, what kind of man Adolph Hitler was and what kind of world he wanted:






A newspaper front page from 1938

We also knew, before 9/11 2001, what the Taliban were and what kind of world they want:





A picture the _New York Times_ published in 2000

The people who object to our participation is wars, in general, or in a specific war are "free" to do so because we decided to send our Navy, Army and Air Force into battle, again and again, to give them the "right" to voice their objections. That they did so on Remembrance Day makes their "free expression" even more _worthy_ of our protection because so many will attack them reflexively.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A recent act of vandalism that saw graffiti scribbled across the top of the war cenotaph located outside the Alliston Legion is the ultimate show of disrespect, says Alliston Second World War veteran Jack Tiernay.
> “It’s an insult to those who lost a son, and those families who are still
> existing in Alliston and area today,” said Tiernay, a former navy man.
> 
> Nottawasaga OPP are looking into the act of vandalism at the legion located on Dufferin Street South. Someone spray painted ‘Jesus Rules’ across the top of the memorial last week sometime Wednesday night or early Thursday morning.
> 
> Legion branch manager Jennifer Fortin called police to investigate after she noticed the damage Thursday morning around 11 a.m.
> 
> “It’s absolutely abhorrent behaviour,” she said.
> 
> “All graffiti is bad, but to do it on a cenotaph?” she added.
> 
> The memorial lists the local men who died serving in the First and Second World War and also honours sacrifices made during the Korean War and peacekeeping missions.
> 
> Fortin said she’s been speaking with the Town of New Tecumseth for advice on how to best remove the markings, however her main concern is how to clean the paint off without causing further harm to the memorial’s delicate stone surface.
> 
> “We want to be very careful in removing it not to cause damage….we might have to sandblast it,” she said.
> 
> Fortin isn’t sure how much it will cost to remove the paint, though she’s fairly certain it won’t be cheap.
> 
> “The cost for us in terms of money right now, we’d prefer not to spend money on that sort of thing,” she said.
> 
> The reaction from local war veterans, legion members and current military members over the vandalism has been nothing short of shock and disgust.
> 
> “They couldn’t believe it, they were gob smacked,” she said, referring to Second World War veterans.
> 
> “We also had some Base Borden members here at the legion last week for lunch and they couldn’t believe it either.”
> 
> Shortly after this story was published, a spokesperson for Veterans Affairs Canada Minister Steven Blaney reached out to The Herald to condemn the act, but to also offer assistance from the ministry.
> 
> “These blatant and disrespectful acts of vandalism cannot be condoned under any circumstances.," said press secretary Jean-Christophe de le Rue. "We encourage any organization to contact Veterans Affairs Canada who may be able to help restore the monument to its rightful condition through the Cenotaph and Monument Restoration Program Program." ....


simcoe.com, 12 Feb 13


----------



## 57Chevy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Fortin said she’s been speaking with the Town of New Tecumseth for advice on how to best remove the markings, however her main concern is how to clean the paint off without causing further harm to the memorial’s delicate stone surface.
> 
> “We want to be very careful in removing it not to cause damage….we might have to sandblast it,” she said.




A couple of links shared with provisions of The Copyright Act concerning
information on grafitti removal.
Remember, the sooner that grafitti is removed from some surfaces the better the results.

from Grafitti Hurts
 Graffiti Removal and Restoration 

and from
Technical Preservation Services of the National Park Service (US)    
 Removing Graffiti from Historic Masonry 
by Martin E. Weaver


----------



## The Bread Guy

This time, in Toronto ....


> A mural in downtown Toronto honouring Canadian soldiers killed overseas has been defaced.
> 
> The Highway of Heroes mural is located at the end of the route taken by repatriated soldiers, in a back alley at a coroner's office near College and Yonge Streets. It marks the final stop for the hearses carrying the remains of Canada’s fallen soldiers.
> 
> More than 150 families have pulled into the alley next to the mural after their loved ones were killed overseas.
> 
> Using black and white paint, vandals spray-painted over the mural that once featured an image of an outstretched dove and a field of poppies.
> 
> Chris Ecklund, of Canadian Heroes, said the vandalism was an “act of treason.”
> 
> “This is one of the most important murals in Canada, and for somebody to come along and destroy this, it’s hard to understand,” he said ....


CTV.ca, 8 Sept 13


----------



## Edward Campbell

For those, and there are still some, for whom memorials like these are their only contact with a dead husband, father, or son, who may have no known grave, these acts of vandalism are, indeed, painful, but people like Chris Ecklund, of Canadian Heroes who describe simple, mindless vandalism as an "act of treason" are not "helping" at all.

This vandalism, like urinating on the National War Memorial, is a symptom of some social ills, mostly unrelated to the object being vandalized. Sometimes, but not as often as we think, this vandalism is tied, loosely, to anti-war or anti-military _movements_, but my - limited to be sure - experiences with people in those _movements_ is that they, generally, tend to be as sad at the loss of soldiers as is anyone else. It is not the soldiers who fight that they see as the enemy, it is the politicians who send soldiers into battle. But, mostly, the vandalism is a sign of disaffected, disconnected youth - the target is anything that doesn't "belong" to them - and that means almost everything because that level of disaffection is, normally, closely related to poverty and socially/culturally "weak" communities.

So, Mr Ecklund, _et al_, please lay off the hyperbole. This is a minor incident of urban vandalism, nothing more.


----------



## pbi

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This vandalism, like urinating on the National War Memorial, is a symptom of some social ills, mostly unrelated to the object being vandalized. ... But, mostly, the vandalism is a sign of disaffected, disconnected youth - the target is anything that doesn't "belong" to them - and that means almost everything because that level of disaffection is, normally, closely related to poverty and socially/culturally "weak" communities.
> 
> So, Mr Ecklund, _et al_, please lay off the hyperbole. This is a minor incident of urban vandalism, nothing more.



I would add that beyond the usual gang of  mouth-breathers and "f***ck everything" crowd who do most of this sort of stupidity (including vandalizing civilian cemeteries), there is a small but very active crew of committed types (anarchists, Black Bloc, etc) who do it out of conviction. A few years ago we had a few in Kingston who thought it was OK to go around tearing off or defacing "Support the Troops" stickers on cars. They represent the absolute worst that the Left has to offer.


----------



## George Wallace

Yes this is an insult to the memory of those who have served; but it is also just as big, if not bigger, an insult to the group of artists who gave up their time to do the original mural that has been defaced.

An interesting thing to note is the stupidity of the vandals.  They tagged their vandalism and can be identified by those tags.  It is only a matter of time before they are brought to justice, however much justice may be dealt to them.


----------



## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes this is an insult to the memory of those who have served; but it is also just as big, if not bigger, an insult to the group of artists who gave up their time to do the original mural that has been defaced.
> 
> An interesting thing to note is the stupidity of the vandals.  They tagged their vandalism and can be identified by those tags.  It is only a matter of time before they are brought to justice, however much justice may be dealt to them.



Justice? A slap on the wrist accompanied by some community service.....maybe.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Justice? A slap on the wrist accompanied by some community service.....maybe.



Poor misunderstood youth. We need to build them another basketball court. :


----------



## myself.only

Well clearly we need to open a dialogue with these "poor misunderstood" vandals.....  

...so how about they sit down face-to-face with each of the families who lost someone in Afghanistan so they can apologize to them personally, one family at a time.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> An interesting thing to note is the stupidity of the vandals.  They tagged their vandalism and can be identified by those tags.  It is only a matter of time before they are brought to justice, however much justice may be dealt to them.


Kharma can suck, can't it?



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ....  *they, generally, tend to be as sad at the loss of soldiers as is anyone else*. It is not the soldiers who fight that they see as the enemy, it is the politicians who send soldiers into battle ....


I  can't agree with the yellow, based on my limited experience - the true ideologues (admittedly small in number) consider the dead "pawns of empire" or whatever crap buzzword is in season.  If they _really_ see the politicians as the bad guys in the equation, they _know_ where to protest to highlight the politicians' role in all this.  They didn't see the difference here, for example.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... So, Mr Ecklund, _et al_, please lay off the hyperbole ....


Agreed - I'm just as pi**ed as most here at this, but "treason" isn't the first term coming to my mind.


----------



## mariomike

"The Highway of Heroes mural is located at the end of the route taken by repatriated soldiers, in a back alley at a coroner's office near College and Yonge Streets. It marks the final stop for the hearses carrying the remains of Canada’s fallen soldiers."

A note regarding the Coroner's Building located at 26 Grenville St. in downtown Toronto.

It is now closed.

In late September it was replaced by the new Ontario Forensic Sciences and Coroner's Complex at 25 Morton Shulman Avenue in the Highway 401 and Keele St. area of Toronto.


----------



## Danjanou

Just as an update on the defaced mural

 http://www.citynews.ca/2013/09/22/artists-help-repaint-vandalized-highway-of-heroes-mural/

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/09/24/defaced_highway_of_heroes_mural_reimagined_by_artists.html


----------



## the 48th regulator

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/national/jail+cenotaph+vandals+educate+them+says+retired+general/9491135/story.html


Don’t jail cenotaph vandals – educate them, says retired general Romeo Dallaire


By Jordan Press, Postmedia News February 10, 2014 2:00 PM

OTTAWA – A high-profile soldier-turned-senator is speaking against a Conservative MP’s bill to enact strict punishments for anyone caught vandalizing statues dedicated to Canada’s soldiers and veterans.

Independent Liberal Sen. Romeo Dallaire says he’d rather see some vandals ordered to spend a few hours listening to the tales of Afghanistan veterans than have them tossed in jail for vandalism. Hearing war stories from vets might turn a teenager who made a bad decision into an evangelist who will preach against defacing any of the almost 6,700 local monuments in Canada, Dallaire said.

The retired general, best-known to Canadians for his role as commander of the ill-fated UN peacekeeping mission during the 1994 Rwanda genocide, also guarded the Vimy Ridge memorial in France as a young soldier in the 1970s.

“A fundamental element of the (military) profession is to discipline within,” Dallaire said in a telephone interview Monday. ”You don’t use the hammer unless (wrongdoing) is wilfully or repetitively performed. I’ve commanded troops for 36 years … and I’ve kept that up in wartime.”

Bill C-217 is a private member’s bill from Conservative MP David Tilson. Under its terms, anyone caught desecrating a war memorial would face a minimum fine of $1,000 for a first offence; a second offence would bring at least 14 days in jail. Each subsequent offence would carry a minimum 30-day jail term.

Tilson introduced the bill after vandals tossed eggs at his community cenotaph in Orangeville, Ont., shortly before Remembrance Day in 2008. In a separate case, On Canada Day in 2006, three people were photographed urinating on the National War Memorial in Ottawa.

After failing to become law before Prime Minister Stephen Harper prorogued Parliament last summer, the revived bill passed second reading in the Senate last week, moments after Dallaire spoke against its mandatory sentences. A Senate committee will hear from Tilson on Wednesday afternoon as it begins studying C-217.

Unless someone repeatedly and wilfully targets and damages war memorials, Dallaire said, “this bill is going to be a very negative tool.”

“I don’t agree with these mandatory sentences,” he said. “You don’t educate a civilized society that way.”

If the bill passes the Senate, Canada will become one of the few countries in the world with a law specifically punishing war memorial vandals. Currently, such acts are covered by the mischief provisions of the Criminal Code.

The United States has a similar law, passed in 2003. In that time, there have been two convictions, according to Dallaire’s research. France and Great Britain – countries Dallaire describes as “replete with monuments” – don’t have such a law.

“The Brits don’t have a special sort of law,” Dallaire said. “None of those countries seemed to have felt it needed to have rules on mischief and social indecencies to places that we revere.”

Dallaire said he will ask the Senate’s legal and constitutional affairs committee to amend the bill, and sort through details about how the law, if enacted, would extend to overseas memorials, including those at Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach.

If the Senate makes any changes to the bill, it will be sent back to the House of Commons where MPs could accept or reject the changes.

jpress@postmedia.com

Twitter.com/jordan_press
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

Read more: http://www.canada.com/jail+cenotaph+vandals+educate+them+says+retired+general+Romeo+Dallaire/9491135/story.html#ixzz2sxeINo6P


----------



## PuckChaser

A Liberal doesn't want someone in jail for breaking the law? Colour me shocked.  :facepalm:


----------



## Container

I hardly feel that someone who defaces anyone's memorial or tombstone is a member of civilized society.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Or even have Afghanistan vets apologize to the vandals and give the vandals $1000 for the cost of paint and their trouble.


----------



## George Wallace

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> ......... France and Great Britain – countries Dallaire describes as “replete with monuments” – don’t have such a law.
> 
> “The Brits don’t have a special sort of law,” Dallaire said. “None of those countries seemed to have felt it needed to have rules on mischief and social indecencies to places that we revere.”




Since when did we become France or Great Britain.  Just because they don't have such a Law (yet), does not mean they may not contemplate one in the future if they see a rise in vandalism of National Monuments.   Just because they don't currently have such a Law, has no relevance on whether or not we should have one.


----------



## Tibbson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> A Liberal doesn't want someone in jail for breaking the law? Colour me shocked.  :facepalm:



I agree that he missed the mark on this one but I think that on the one hand the retired General has a point, the education system failed these vandals as well as their own ethics and morals.  I have more then enough children that have gone through the education system of at least 4 provinces as we have moved around and regardless of where they were educated one thing was constant....we don't teach enough Canadian history and few Canadians get a full appreciation of it, especially our military history.


----------



## George Wallace

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> I agree that he missed the mark on this one but I think that on the one hand the retired General has a point, the education system failed these vandals as well as their own ethics and morals.  I have more then enough children that have gone through the education system of at least 4 provinces as we have moved around and regardless of where they were educated one thing was constant....we don't teach enough Canadian history and few Canadians get a full appreciation of it, especially our military history.



Don't lay all the blame on the "Education System" for these faults.  Where are/were their Parents?  Have we in this PC country removed all responsibilities from parents?


----------



## brihard

Mandatory minimums for vandalizing a war memorial? Bloody absurd. This is simply an attempt to 'legislate respect'- an idea that's ridiculous on its face.

There is a criminal code offense to cover this: S.430 C.C., Mischief. That comes with a maximum sentence of $5000 or six months if they go summary, or two years if they proceed by indictment. Courts have that option if merited. S.430 even has sections covering religious or cultural property that amplify potential sanctions.  This private member's bill purports that war memorials are somehow of such unique character as to necessitate mandatory minimums including jail time for a second offense. 14 days in jail for throwing a few eggs at a cenotaph? You wouldn't get that for damaging someone's personal property that an actual individual person ends up having to fix, clean, or replace.

War memorials are something that resonate hugely with us as a community. I get that. I really do. But making them unique in law like this is elevating them unreasonably above a whole bunch of other stuff. Someone convicted of a first offense for drunk driving won't get jail time (their life is screwed in other ways), but you get caught twice egging or pissing on a memorial and you go to jail? Entirely disproportionate.

The criminal justice system is very, very resource intensive. The time it would take to properly investigate and prosecute every offence that happens would exceed the capacity of the system massively. I'm not sure what the concepts are that some of you have of the system, but the vast majority of things done by people that are criminal offences are very trivial and minor, and don't merit prosecution, and police officers or crown attorneys will deal with them appropriately by other means. Throwing mandatory minimums are what are, really, quite trivial offences is a stupid waste of resource intended to pander to a certain political base. I think in the case of memorials the 'naming and shaming' response has been shown to work a lot better.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brihard said:
			
		

> Mandatory minimums for vandalizing a war memorial? Bloody absurd. This is simply an attempt to 'legislate respect'- an idea that's ridiculous on its face.
> 
> There is a criminal code offense to cover this: S.430 C.C., Mischief. That comes with a maximum sentence of $5000 or six months if they go summary, or two years if they procede by indictment. Courts have that option if merited. S.430 even has sections covering religious or cultural property that amplify potential sanctions.  This private member's bill purports that war memorials are somehow of such unique character as to necessiate mandatory minimums including jail time for a second offense. 14 days in jail for throwing a few eggs at a cenotaph? You wouldn't get that for damaging someone's personal property that an actual individual person ends up having to fix, clean, or replace.
> 
> War memorials are something that resonate hugely with us as a community. I get that. I really do. But making them unique in law like this is elevating them unreasonably above a whole bunch of other stuff. Someone convicted of a first offense for drunk driving won't get jail time (their life is screwed in other ways), but you get caught twice egging or pissing on a memorial and you go to jail? Entirely disproportionate.
> 
> The criminal justice system is very, very resource intensive. The time it would take to properly investigate and prosecute every offence that happens would exceed the capacity of the system massively. I'm not sure what the concepts are that some of you have of the system, but the vast majority of things done by people that are criminal offences are very trivial and minor, and don't merit prosecution, and police officers or crown attorneys will deal with them appropriately by other means. Throwing mandatory minimums are what are, really, quite trivial offences is a stupid waste of resource intended to pander to a certain political base. I think in the case of memorials the 'naming and shaming' response has been shown to work a lot better.



 :goodpost:

I agree completely, these new laws would end up not being worth the paper they are printed on.


----------



## Tibbson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Don't lay all the blame on the "Education System" for these faults.  Where are/were their Parents?  Have we in this PC country removed all responsibilities from parents?



Oh I'm certainly not laying the blame on our education system.  I've got a number of special needs children and the first thing I tell each one of their teachers (after I tell them I can be their best friend or their worst enemy ) is that it's not just their job to teach my children and that they had better involve my wife and I or we'll involve ourselves.  We've always had a very positive relationship with all of the teachers, even when the system sucked.

At the same time though, my core comment still stands in my mind.  These days most Canadian kids can tell you more American history then they can Canadian since they don't learn much in school.


----------



## George Wallace

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> Oh I'm certainly not laying the blame on our education system.  I've got a number of special needs children and the first thing I tell each one of their teachers (after I tell them I can be their best friend or their worst enemy ) is that it's not just their job to teach my children and that they had better involve my wife and I or we'll involve ourselves.  We've always had a very positive relationship with all of the teachers, even when the system sucked.
> 
> At the same time though, my core comment still stands in my mind.  These days most Canadian kids can tell you more American history then they can Canadian since they don't learn much in school.



It is a "partnership", but many in today's society are not "teamplayers"; placing self before all others.


----------



## pbi

Brihard said:
			
		

> Mandatory minimums for vandalizing a war memorial? Bloody absurd. This is simply an attempt to 'legislate respect'- an idea that's ridiculous on its face.
> 
> There is a criminal code offense to cover this: S.430 C.C., Mischief.
> The criminal justice system is very, very resource intensive. The time it would take to properly investigate and prosecute every offence that happens would exceed the capacity of the system massively. I'm not sure what the concepts are that some of you have of the system, but the vast majority of things done by people that are criminal offences are very trivial and minor, and don't merit prosecution, and police officers or crown attorneys will deal with them appropriately by other means. Throwing mandatory minimums are what are, really, quite trivial offences is a stupid waste of resource intended to pander to a certain political base. I think in the case of memorials the 'naming and shaming' response has been shown to work a lot better.



 :goodpost:

We don't need more laws. We have stacks of laws covering everything under the sun. We just need to enforce the ones we've already got.  What would have happened to somebody caught pissing on a war memorial in 1950, or '70, or '90?  A public mischief charge. Good enough. You can consider the gravity and impact of the offence when you do the sentencing, which is a pretty standard judicial practice.


----------



## George Wallace

pbi said:
			
		

> We don't need more laws. We have stacks of laws covering everything under the sun. We just need to enforce the ones we've already got.  What would have happened to somebody caught pissing on a war memorial in 1950, or '70, or '90?  A public mischief charge. Good enough. You can consider the gravity and impact of the offence when you do the sentencing, which is a pretty standard judicial practice.



Agreed.  What we are facing today is not the lack of Laws or Regulations, but the complacency in not enforcing already existing Laws and Regulations, both in 'enforcement' and in the Courts.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Brihard said:
			
		

> Mandatory minimums for vandalizing a war memorial? Bloody absurd. This is simply an attempt to 'legislate respect'- an idea that's ridiculous on its face.
> 
> There is a criminal code offense to cover this: S.430 C.C., Mischief. That comes with a maximum sentence of $5000 or six months if they go summary, or two years if they proceed by indictment. Courts have that option if merited. S.430 even has sections covering religious or cultural property that amplify potential sanctions.  This private member's bill purports that war memorials are somehow of such unique character as to necessitate mandatory minimums ...




 :goodpost:

+300 Milpoints, too


----------



## Journeyman

On a separate note.......


			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> _Independent Liberal_ Sen. Romeo Dallaire.....



So _that's_ how it's currently phrased, now that Justin 2 (the non-Bieber one) revoked the Senators' Liberal status.


edit: punctuation  :facepalm:


----------



## pbi

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Agreed.  What we are facing today is not the lack of Laws or Regulations, but the complacency in not enforcing already existing Laws and Regulations, both in 'enforcement' and in the Courts.



It might also be fair to admit that we are facing both Crowns and police services that are so overborne now that they can't handle the existing load of indictable offences, never mind summary or lesser offences that result in minor punishments.

A police constable today spends much of their life filling out forms, either on the road or in the station. The Crown faces a similar situation. Then the defence has the right to review everything (Which is certainly a right I would want if I was ever charged with anything serious).

As an example of how bad this can get, when I brought (then Commissioner) Fantino in to CFC to speak about LEA/CAF cooperation, he mentioned that the Crown was about to turn over a _semi-trailer_ full of documents to the defence team of the Toronto Eighteen.

Making up more laws will just add to this mess.


----------



## ModlrMike

Three comments:

1. It's a private member's bill, the likelihood of passage remains slim for the moment.

2. "Educating" these vandals will be a wasted effort.

3. Enforcement of existing laws would be better, if not best. Creative sentencing like having them work in a Veteran's facility would be more effective than lecturing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Mandatory minimums for vandalizing a war memorial? Bloody absurd. This is simply an attempt to 'legislate respect'- an idea that's ridiculous on its face.
> 
> There is a criminal code offense to cover this: S.430 C.C., Mischief ....


+1000   :goodpost:



			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> 1. It's a private member's bill, the likelihood of passage remains slim for the moment.


True - FYI, it's now with the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee according to the "where's this bill at?" page for Bill C-217, set to be discussed tomorrow and Thursday - list of witnesses include:


> - David Tilson, MP, Dufferin-Caledon, Sponsor of the Bill
> 
> _Royal Canadian Legion_
> - Gordon Moore, Dominion President
> - Steven Clark, Director of National Ceremonies
> 
> _Commonwealth War Graves Commission_
> - Brigadier-General (ret) David Kettle, Secretary General, Canadian Agency
> 
> _Criminal Lawyers' Association_
> - Leo Russomanno, Representative
> - Michael Spratt, Representative
> 
> _Canadian Council of Criminal Defence Lawyers_
> - Graeme Hamilton, Representative
> 
> _John Howard Society of Canada_
> - Catherine Latimer, Executive Director
> 
> _As Individuals_
> - Colonel (ret) Andrew Nellestyn
> - Chris Skalozub





			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> 3. Enforcement of existing laws would be better, if not best. Creative sentencing like having them work in a Veteran's facility would be more effective than lecturing.


 :nod:

BTW, standby for a merge with all sorts of other discussion of Bill C-217 & other cenotaph defacement issues....


----------



## kratz

Journeyman said:
			
		

> On a separate note.......
> So _that's_ how it's currently phrased, now that *Justin 2 * (the non-Bieber one)



[derail]
Thank you for the clarification, I thought you were using the post-nominal for the bar that is planned to go with the medal.   >
[/derail]


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest from the hearings on the proposed bill ....


> Anyone caught vandalizing a war memorial should have a criminal record, and judges or Crown attorneys who consider otherwise are inviting the “wrath of the public,” a Conservative MP says.
> 
> Conservative MP David Tilson made the comments under questioning from senators over his private member’s bill that would create minimum fines and jail terms for mischief against war memorials or cenotaphs.
> 
> “If you’re convicted of these offences, you should have a criminal record,” Tilson said. “This is a serious matter — it goes beyond mischief.”
> 
> His bill was met with concern from some senators who wanted data about the scope of the problem, and the scope of change to the Criminal Code being proposed.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Tilson said the bill doesn’t stop a Crown attorney or judge from having an alternative sentence for vandals, such as community service, but “he or she runs the wrath of the public if they do that.”
> 
> “A judge has jurisdiction to do that,” Tilson said. “The whole aim of this bill is to make it severe. The penalties are severe. I sense that you don’t think they should be, but I do.” ....


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ......inviting the “wrath of the public,”


I doubt the pubic cares remotely, let alone enough to work up "wrath."


----------



## George Wallace

A lot of people look at memorials as objects, not necessarily a memorial, and not at all as a work of art that some artist/sculpture has laboured to create.  Quite often, the general public are completely complacent to memorials to the extent that they are invisible to them in their daily lives.  Some memorials are quite prominent "tourist attractions" while the majority are 'invisible' to the public.  Corner stones on buildings and historic plaques are walked past unnoticed daily.   Statues in parks are often just that, a statue; not a memorial to some event or person.  Could we even go so far as to compare many memorials to 'garden gnomes' in the way that the public pass them without notice.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I doubt the pubic cares remotely, let alone enough to work up "wrath."


Without having read the Committee transcript, the MP sounds like someone who wants the public to directly twist the arms of the judiciary.  He  may even be disappointed we don't elect prosecutors and judges.


----------



## dapaterson

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Without having read the Committee transcript, the MP sounds like someone who wants the public to directly twist the arms of the judiciary.  He  may even be disappointed we don't elect prosecutors and judges.



Pshaw!  He probably wants lynch mobs instead - cheaper, faster and no procedural nonsense.


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pshaw!  He probably wants lynch mobs instead - cheaper, faster and no procedural nonsense.


Like this?


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm all for doubling or tripling the sentence for people who are generally assholes but if we singled out memorials for an increased punishment people would go out of their way to vandalize them just to make a point/protest.


----------



## pbi

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Without having read the Committee transcript, the MP sounds like someone who wants the public to directly twist the arms of the judiciary.  He  may even be disappointed we don't elect prosecutors and judges.



A position often taken by politicians at both ends of the political spectrum, and IMHO a disastrously bad one. People who urge this sort of thing always dwell in the happy assumption that the politicians and pressure groups manipulating the Judiciary will always be the ones THEY agree with. They never imagine themselves or someone they value, in court for something, and being tried and sentenced not by an impartial and educated legal system, but by mob pressure from people they really, really don't like.

If you want to change laws, there is a legislative process to do that, which allows politicians to meddle and grandstand to their hearts' delight. Once a law is made, let's leave it to the judiciary to enact it.

Separation of judiciary and politics, thanks very much.


----------



## Journeyman

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm all for doubling or tripling the sentence for people who are generally assholes but if we singled out memorials for an increased punishment people would go out of their way to vandalize them just to make a point/protest.


          :goodpost:


----------



## cupper

Can we just start tazing the F#$% out of this guys?

*National War Memorial: Man charged after 'fornicating the statue,' police say*

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/national-war-memorial-man-charged-after-fornicating-the-statue-police-say-1.3178094



> A 22-year-old man has been charged after police say he climbed the National War Memorial in Ottawa and began "fornicating the statue."
> 
> Ottawa police said in a news release that bystanders watched the man climb the memorial around 11:30 p.m. ET Sunday at the intersection of Sparks and Elgin streets.
> 
> The man was arrested at the scene and charged with mischief, police said. He appeared in court on Monday.
> 
> This is the same memorial where Cpl. Nathan Cirillo was fatally shot last October while on guard.
> 
> Guarding the monument became an issue when a man was captured on camera urinating on the statue in 2006.
> 
> Sentries began guarding the war memorial during the daytime in response to that incident, which involved a man and two boys who were later sentenced to community service.
> 
> Sentries continue to watch the memorial but do not stand guard overnight.


----------



## George Wallace

There is no end to the ways that some can prove that 'just when you saw/heard every thing' they can prove you wrong.  Also, there is no end to the line of really stupid people out there:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Young man caught "fornicating" a war memorial statue
> 
> OTTAWA CITIZEN
> Published on: August 3, 2015 | Last Updated: August 3, 2015 6:01 PM EDT
> 
> A young man was arrested late Sunday after being caught “fornicating” a statue at the National War Memorial.
> 
> Ottawa police said Monday the 22-year-old had climbed the Sparks Street monument at about 11:30 p.m. Sunday and, according to passersby, “began fornicating the statue.” Witnesses noticed that he was wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the phrase “I Need a Drink.”
> 
> The man was arrested at the scene after bystanders called police. He was held in custody overnight on a mischief charge and released after a brief court appearance Monday. Police said they will continue to investigate the matter, and more charges are possible.
> 
> The monument honours the country’s war dead and holds the remains of the Unknown Soldier, returned to Canada from France in 2000.
> 
> One passerby, Michael Smith, described the young man’s behaviour as “extremely offensive given what the memorial stands for.”
> 
> Sunday’s incident is similar to one in 2006 when a group of  young men were photographed urinating on the war memorial during Canada Day celebrations. Their actions sparked outrage across the country.
> 
> Two of the teenagers later apologized and were required to perform community service as a penalty. Another man, Stephen Fernandes, 23, of Montreal, was charged with mischief. He, too, apologized, although he claimed to have no memory of his actions.
> 
> More recently, on Remembrance Day in 2012, vandals defaced the Victory Peace memorial in Toronto Coronation Park, using a marker to scrawl the phrase “Canada will burn praise Allah”.
> 
> Anyone with information regarding this latest desecration is asked to contact the Ottawa Police Central District Investigations Unit at extension 5166 or  Crime Stoppers at 613-233-8477 (TIPS) or toll free at 1-800-222-8477.



More on LINK.


----------



## Remius

I really hope this isn't a serving or former member.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There is no end to the ways that some can prove that 'just when you saw/heard every thing' they can prove you wrong.  Also, there is no end to the line of really stupid people out there:
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> More on LINK.




Actually, George, I think you (and the dipsticks who edit the _Ottawa Citizen_) will find that the word is "for_*m*_icating" Formicate is a perfectly good English word that means to crawl about like an ant. Sloppy, semi-literate journalists ...


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## MARS

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Actually, George, I think you (and the dipsticks who edit the _Ottawa Citizen_) will find that the word is "for_*m*_icating" Formicate is a perfectly good English word that means to crawl about like an ant. Sloppy, semi-literate journalists ...



Not sure I would expect a "passerby" to use the word formicate in calling the cops, nor would I expect the Ottawa citizen to use such an uncommon word even if it is perfectly good english.  I am willing got bet the person was simulating fornicating with the statue.  

I don't think I have ever heard another human being use the word formicate, hell even the spellchecker doesn't recognize it


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## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Actually, George, I think you (and the dipsticks who edit the _Ottawa Citizen_) will find that the word is "for_*m*_icating" Formicate is a perfectly good English word that means to crawl about like an ant. Sloppy, semi-literate journalists ...


???
I'm as skeptical about media as the next guy, and I stand to be corrected when Ottawa Police publish the news release on their web page, but if two three media outlets report the same phrase from a police news release, I'm thinking the accused wasn't charged with crawling.  Besides, even the WORST bureaucratic writing wouldn't have "formicating" instead of "crawling on".

Edited to add:  This seems to confirm that the cops may have originally said "formicating", they meant .... the carnal (bronze) knowledge thing.


> Police have corrected the release, saying the man was seen "fornicating" the statue on the National War Memorial.


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## McG

I believe ERC knows all this but is deliberately denying because that is easier than admitting the human species is inclusive of at least a few strands of DNA capable of such levels of stupidity.

Saddly, the stupidiots are out there.


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## cavalryman

...aaaand another village is short its obligatory idiot  :


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## The Bread Guy

MCG said:
			
		

> I believe ERC knows all this but is deliberately denying because that is easier than admitting the human species is inclusive of at least a few strands of DNA capable of such levels of stupidity.


And to be fair, the accused would have _had_ to formicate before fornicating ....



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Saddly, the stupidiots are out there.


Oh yeah ....


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## Old Sweat

Whether it was form. . . or forn. . ., buddy has probably removed himself for consideration for the Order of Canada for several hundred years


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## dapaterson

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Whether it was form. . . or forn. . ., buddy has probably removed himself for consideration for the Order of Canada for several hundred years



Until the ants take over.


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## Good2Golf

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Whether it was form. . . or forn. . ., buddy has probably removed himself for consideration for the Order of Canada for several hundred years



Although he may still qualify for the as yet un-issued Queens Platinum Jubilee Medal...


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## The Bread Guy

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Although he may still qualify for the as yet un-issued Queens Platinum Jubilee Medal...


 :rofl:


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## Kat Stevens

These statues are bronze for the most part, aren't they?  A pretty good conductor of electricity if I recall?  The answer is a trip to the nearest farm supply for an electric fence box.  Smartens 
up the dumbest of sheep and cows, should work fine on the drunken two legged cattle too.


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## The Bread Guy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> These statues are bronze for the most part, aren't they?  A pretty good conductor of electricity if I recall?  The answer is a trip to the nearest farm supply for an electric fence box.  Smartens
> up the dumbest of sheep and cows, should work fine on the drunken two legged cattle too.


Would that cause birds landing on it to explode or something, or would it work like birds on a powerline?

Meanwhile, here's the "monumental" Ottawa police service news release ....


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## Robert0288

should be like birds to a power line.  Then again we might get a really cool lighting effect with electricity arcing off


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## Edward Campbell

It never ends, does it?

Now the Toronto Star reports that the Soldier’s Memorial Slype,* commemorating St. Michael’s alumni who fought in the World Wars and the Korean War, and which connects Queen’s Park to the quad at the college campus, was defaced by vandals last night.







So sad ...


_____
* _*slype*_
   noun, Architecture
   1. a covered passage, especially one from the transept of a cathedral to the chapter house.


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## geo

Childish!


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## The Bread Guy

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ...


> Someone has vandalized the cenotaph at Legion Memorial Park in Cornwall.
> 
> The culprit or culprits used dark green paint to scribe a scrawling set of initials across the date stamp, marking the time those who served in World War I, World War II and the Korean War.
> 
> It’s not clear when the vandalism took place but the act has drawn a furor from people on social media ...


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## mariomike

"The culprit or culprits used dark green paint to scribe a scrawling set of initials across the date stamp, marking the time those who served in World War I, World War II and the Korean War."

Time for an Earl Scheib treatment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyersVRlEGU


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## mariomike

Man who sold a cenotaph plaque for scrap to be sentenced Nov. 21
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/cenotaph-sentencing-plaque-fredericton-jeffery-grant-1.3840444
Jeffrey Grant pleaded guilty earlier to possession of stolen brass plaque taken from city cenotaph.


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