# Haitian leaders must all agree before Canada would lead a potential military intervention, Trudeau says



## Maxman1 (22 Nov 2022)




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## FormerHorseGuard (22 Nov 2022)

This would be a big operation for our Forces, and not a pretty one. 
Police and law enforcement type work,  military security type work.  dealing with street gangs who are well armed etc, this could end being a huge PR nightmare if something went wrong and end up as black eye on Canada.


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## Maxman1 (22 Nov 2022)

Maybe we'll get lucky and these vague Haitian leaders can't agree on the colour of an orange.


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## Staff Weenie (22 Nov 2022)

Haiti is a failed state, and will continue to be one for many years/decades to come. They have overpopulated the country and destroyed the ecosystem, let corruption run rampant, and failed to deliver on key aspects such as health care and education. It is a bottomless pit for foreign aid. I doubt any of the CARICOM nations want to get involved either. There is no scenario where I see our military welcomed by all. Haitians need to develop and implement their own solution.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Maybe we'll get lucky and these vague Haitian leaders can't agree on the colour of an orange.



It doesn't matter, based on this instructive (and somewhat depressing) article on Canada's various trips to Haiti since 1990, if we go there again we'll likely be back in a couple of years:

Canadian Peacekeepers in Haiti​
Since 1990, peacekeepers from the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and civilian police forces, including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), have served in Haiti on various United Nations (UN) missions. The purpose of these missions was to help stop the internal violence and civil unrest that had plagued the country for years and help promote and protect human rights and strengthen police and judicial systems.






						Canadian Peacekeepers in Haiti
					

Since 1990, peacekeepers from the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and civilian police forces, including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), have served in Hai...




					www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


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## suffolkowner (22 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It doesn't matter, based on this instructive (and somewhat depressing) article on Canada's various trips to Haiti since 1990, if we go there again we'll likely be back in a couple of years:
> 
> Canadian Peacekeepers in Haiti​
> Since 1990, peacekeepers from the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) and civilian police forces, including the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), have served in Haiti on various United Nations (UN) missions. The purpose of these missions was to help stop the internal violence and civil unrest that had plagued the country for years and help promote and protect human rights and strengthen police and judicial systems.
> ...


thats the thing unless someone is talking about 20 yrs of martial law I dont see fixing this situation. I dont think anyone has the appetite for that


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## Spencer100 (22 Nov 2022)

Maxman1 said:


> Maybe we'll get lucky and these vague Haitian leaders can't agree on the colour of an orange.


That's the plan.  Somebody with some smarts whispered into Trudeau ear.  Don't touch this and here put a condition on it that can never happen.


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> thats the thing unless someone is talking about 20 yrs of martial law I dont see fixing this situation. I dont think anyone has the appetite for that


If Canada wanted to be a leading middle power and exert foreign influence in an area that could be considered part of our sphere of influence, we could take on this task.

We don't want either of those things so I don't see us realistically taking on this task.

I've got some experience in the Caribbean (I spent 7 months in Jamaica) and while Jamaica also has a difficult security situation, it's magnitudes of order better than Haiti and it has a functioning Government, fairly strong security forces, etc.

Canada leading an international intervention in Haiti = "Don't write cheques your ass can't cash"

We would need to commit a Brigade's worth of forces to the Country (at least) and would need to invest $$$billions of dollars in to the Country to make any difference.

We would also need to completely rebuild Haitian Security Forces and embark on some pretty extensive public works revitalization.


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## OldSolduer (22 Nov 2022)

STFO Haiti. 

Despite my admiration for the former GG this island is not worth the efforts we will expend


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## CBH99 (22 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> This would be a big operation for our Forces, and not a pretty one.
> Police and law enforcement type work,  military security type work.  dealing with street gangs who are well armed etc, this could end being a huge PR nightmare if something went wrong and end up as black eye on Canada.


Not to sound too dark, but unless the street gangs have a supplier of RPG’s & a fairly well distributed network of pricks missing some fingers throughout the country, the fight at the tactical level is fairly achievable.  

(Assuming the gangs aren’t using any respawn hacks…)

But agreed, the strategic fight is unwinnable in the country’s current form.  Cest pool of corruption, greed, lack of education & poor attitude at the politician level means it’s a place where aid money goes to die…as proven by their current state.


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Nov 2022)

Canada can raise and pay for two battalions of Gurkha's to be sent there to restore order in a way that is culturally sensitive/familiar to the Haitians.


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## Spencer100 (22 Nov 2022)

I saw Black Panther on the weekend.  Haiti looked beautiful......Is Hollywood lying to me?

Where is Wakanda when you need them?


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## YZT580 (22 Nov 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I saw Black Panther on the weekend.  Haiti looked beautiful......Is Hollywood lying to me?
> 
> Where is Wakanda when you need them?


Haiti is only pretty from the air.  It and Mali have a lot in common when you are up close and personal so hopefully we stay away.  I hate watching processions on the 401 and that to me would be the inevitable outcome.


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## Spencer100 (22 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Haiti is only pretty from the air.  It and Mali have a lot in common when you are up close and personal so hopefully we stay away.  I hate watching processions on the 401 and that to me would be the inevitable outcome.


World Colonial history they won't teach you in school.

1) Being colonized by British works out that in the end you are doing better than your neighbours. 
2) if you can't have that hope for the Portuguese 
3) Spanish if you must
4) Never the French

And if a Belgian King is eyeing your place....just shoot yourself in the head. 

By choosing option one.  You get your traditional way of life destroyed but will receive railways, common law and in some cases better governance.  And after sometime they will most likely leave mostly peacefully.  

But back to the topic 
In seriousness this would a be a thankless task.   And add very high risk of failure with no upside.


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## FormerHorseGuard (22 Nov 2022)

reading various news stories, they are smuggling weapons in the USA, using kidnapping as a means to fund their gangs.

Canadian Army could handle some small street gang in a fight.  But the headlines back home or around the world might not be kind or honest.

We could end up with another Somali type operation. The police are powerless or corrupt or both.

Only way I see to fix it, is role in, take it hard and fast.  Get rid of the police and start over,  get some sort of economy set up and make it self running.  That is a dream. It would be a long term mission, longer than any operation Canada ( Cyprus was almost 30 years and nothing really changed)  and be more like a posting than a UN type mission.  Cannot fix it on 6 month rotations, cannot fix it in a year, this would 25 years to never ending operation.  They have never had effective self ruling style government. Have no exports, or real reasons to visit the country, so tourism is out. They have to start over and rebuild to get the world to come them  for any reason. 

It would be a money pit for the CAF,  require special equipment or more equipment to have there for an unknow period of time, pay and special allowances,  hate to say but funerals for Canadian troops,  Canadian Aid groups and government agencies would be pouring money down the drain faster than they could print it.

The US wants Canada to take the lead because they have seen the work of Nation building blow up in their faces in the last 30 years, not too keen to try it again and be on the news for failing again


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## GR66 (22 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> reading various news stories, they are smuggling weapons in the USA, using kidnapping as a means to fund their gangs.
> 
> Canadian Army could handle some small street gang in a fight.  But the headlines back home or around the world might not be kind or honest.
> 
> ...


Does that sound at all like Afghanistan or Iraq to you?  How did they work out?


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## Staff Weenie (22 Nov 2022)

The US wants nothing to do with Haiti based upon their previous invasions stabilization operations in Haiti, as well as their history of dealing non-white folks. They also keep floating the balloon that Canada should be lead the mission because we have people that can speak French. Though, Haitian Creole is not exactly French anymore. In theory, we do have a vested interest in that it's in our hemisphere, and Haitian migrants do end up crossing our borders illegally. A stable Haiti would be beneficial to us.

For those who suggest taking on the gangs - I'll give you examples from Jamaica (27 years married to a Jamaican and annual visits) where the Jamaican Defence Force gets involved frequently. The very poor folks, who are most likely to be gang members (or supporters), live in shanty towns, where walls are sometimes corrugated sheet metal or wooden planks. When the JDF would open fire with 7.62 or 5.56, the rounds that missed would pass through multiple shacks, and then the children hiding inside, etc. - That's how you get riots on the streets in a heartbeat. I've been in country many times this has happened. It's a no-win scenario.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Nov 2022)

"So that is why our approach now is not about doing what one political party or the government wants," Trudeau said. "It's calling for a level of consensus and coherence from *all* actors in Haiti to call for solutions that we can actually get behind and lead on as an international community."

I'd say that's a pretty safe stipulation.

Political parties and leaders

Alternative League for Haitian Progress and Empowerment or LAPEH [Jude CELESTIN]
Christian Movement for a New Haiti or MCNH [Luc MESADIEU]
Christian National Movement for the Reconstruction of Haiti or UNCRH [Chavannes JEUNE]
Convention for Democratic Unity or KID [Evans PAUL]
Cooperative Action to Rebuild Haiti or KONBA [Jean William JEANTY]
December 16 Platform or Platfom 16 Desanm [Dr. Gerard BLOT]
Democratic Alliance Party or ALYANS [Evans PAUL] (coalition includes KID and PPRH)
Democratic Centers' National Council or CONACED [Osner FEVRY]
Dessalinian Patriotic and Popular Movement or MOPOD [Jean Andre VICTOR]
Effort and Solidarity to Create an Alternative for the People or ESKAMP [Joseph JASME]
Fanmi Lavalas or FL [Jean-Bertrand ARISTIDE]
For Us All or PONT [Jean-Marie CHERESTAL]
Fusion of Haitian Social Democrats or FHSD [Edmonde Supplice BEAUZILE]
Grouping of Citizens for Hope or RESPE [Charles-Henri BAKER]
Haitians for Haiti [Yvon NEPTUNE]
Haitian Tet Kale Party or PHTK [Ann Valerie Timothee MILFORT]
Haiti in Action or AAA [Youri LATORTUE]
Independent Movement for National Reconstruction or MIRN [Luc FLEURINORD]
Konbit Pou refe Ayiti or KONBIT
Lavni Organization or LAVNI [Yves CRISTALIN]
Liberal Party of Haiti or PLH [Jean Andre VICTOR]
Love Haiti or Renmen Ayiti [Jean-Henry CEANT, Camille LEBLANC]
Mobilization for National Development or MDN [Hubert de RONCERAY]
New Christian Movement for a New Haiti or MOCHRENA [Luc MESADIEU]
Organization for the Advancement of Haiti and Haitians or OLAHH
Party for the Integral Advancement of the Haitian People or PAIPH
Patriotic Unity or IP [Marie Denise CLAUDE]
Peasant's Response or Repons Peyizan [Michel MARTELLY]
Platform Alternative for Progress and Democracy or ALTENATIV [Victor BENOIT and Evans PAUL]
Platform of Haitian Patriots or PLAPH [Dejean BELISAIRE, Himmler REBU]
Platform Pitit Desaline or PPD [Jean-Charles MOISE]
Pont
Popular Party for the Renewal of Haiti or PPRH [Claude ROMAIN]
PPG18
Rally of Progressive National Democrats or RDNP [Mirlande MANIGAT]
Renmen Ayiti or RA [Jean-Henry CEANT]
Reseau National Bouclier or Bouclier
Respect or RESPE
Strength in Unity or Ansanm Nou Fo [Leslie VOLTAIRE]
Struggling People's Organization or OPL [Jacques-Edouard ALEXIS]
Truth (Verite)
Union [Chavannes JEUNE]
Unity or Inite [Levaillant LOUIS-JEUNE]
Vigilance or Veye Yo [Lavarice GAUDIN]

We won't change anything there. This is their own forever problem. However, they can start by keeping the Clinton Foundation out of there. Promise to build houses, then steal a gold mine for their brother.

Same island. Just a line on a map separating them.


			Haiti vs. Dominican Republic - Country Comparison


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Nov 2022)

Double post


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## Maxman1 (22 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Haiti is only pretty from the air.  It and Mali have a lot in common when you are up close and personal so hopefully we stay away.  I hate watching processions on the 401 and that to me would be the inevitable outcome.



You mean Conan O'Brien lied to me?


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## Maxman1 (22 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Cest pool of corruption, greed, lack of education & poor attitude at the politician level means it’s a place where aid money goes to die…as proven by their current state.



Or where aid money doesn't go to at all, as proven by a certain foundation.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Canada can raise and pay for two battalions of Gurkha's to be sent there to restore order in a way that is culturally sensitive/familiar to the Haitians.



Or make it a Reserve Army task... we're just a different kind of mercenary


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## Jarnhamar (22 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or make it a Reserve Army task... we're just a different kind of mercenary


That's what I was thinking. Just pick one of our many reservist battalions and send them complete.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or make it a Reserve Army task... we're just a different kind of mercenary


Maybe Ukraine can send us some money and armament for the mission.😃


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## dapaterson (22 Nov 2022)

Winnipeg Grenadiers and Royal Rifles of Canada?


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## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Winnipeg Grenadiers and Royal Rifles of Canada?



Send all the Scottish regiments. Then we'll retain an element of deniability


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## dapaterson (22 Nov 2022)

Nah, the Brits abolished all theirs and rolled them into a single regiment.

We can't get two units to plan training together...


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## daftandbarmy (22 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Nah, the Brits abolished all theirs and rolled them into a single regiment.
> 
> We can't get two units to plan training together...



Let alone dress alike.

Within their own unit


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## Jarnhamar (22 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Let alone dress alike.


That's so 2021


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Nov 2022)

Staff Weenie said:


> The US wants nothing to do with Haiti based upon their previous invasions stabilization operations in Haiti, as well as their history of dealing non-white folks. They also keep floating the balloon that Canada should be lead the mission because we have people that can speak French. Though, Haitian Creole is not exactly French anymore. In theory, we do have a vested interest in that it's in our hemisphere, and Haitian migrants do end up crossing our borders illegally. A stable Haiti would be beneficial to us.
> 
> For those who suggest taking on the gangs - I'll give you examples from Jamaica (27 years married to a Jamaican and annual visits) where the Jamaican Defence Force gets involved frequently. The very poor folks, who are most likely to be gang members (or supporters), live in shanty towns, where walls are sometimes corrugated sheet metal or wooden planks. When the JDF would open fire with 7.62 or 5.56, the rounds that missed would pass through multiple shacks, and then the children hiding inside, etc. - That's how you get riots on the streets in a heartbeat. I've been in country many times this has happened. It's a no-win scenario.


I was in Jamaica working for seven months shortly after the Tivoli Gardens (Jamaica) operation.  It was a massacre, 100+ civilian casualties (allegedly) and multiple members of the security forces wounded and killed.

Members of the Shower Posse entrenched themselves and the entire City of Kingston was locked down. 

The JDF apparently had to deploy mortar teams, etc to rout out the heavily armed gangs.

The CAF literally has next to no experience in the type of fighting that happens in places like Jamaica and Haiti would make that look like an absolute picnic.


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## rmc_wannabe (22 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I was in Country shortly after the Tivoli Gardens (Jamaica) operation.  It was a massacre, 100+ civilian casualties (allegedly) and multiple members of the security forces wounded and killed.
> 
> Members of the Shower Posse entrenched themselves and the entire City of Kingston was locked down.
> 
> ...


Mortars?! On a Peace Support Operation?!

Next thing you'll tell me is you want out folks out there with more than 5 mags and a white APC to show these wayward souls that convening diplomacy is the only way to resolve conflicts....

Seriously though, our current Liberal government that pines for a Second Golden Era of Pearsonian peacekeeping didn't learn anything from our folly into Mali and now wants us to do it again in a far more hostile AOR.

No thank you.


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## dimsum (22 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Mortars?! On a Peace Support Operation?!
> 
> Next thing you'll tell me is you want out folks out there with more than 5 mags and a white APC to show these wayward souls that convening diplomacy is the only way to resolve conflicts....
> 
> ...


Well, to be fair, our last "blue helmets" mission in Mali wasn't exactly unarmed.


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Mortars?! On a Peace Support Operation?!
> 
> Next thing you'll tell me is you want out folks out there with more than 5 mags and a white APC to show these wayward souls that convening diplomacy is the only way to resolve conflicts....
> 
> ...








						2010 Kingston unrest - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				









"PeAcEkEePiNg!!!"

Best part about if the CAF/Govt went in to a place like Haiti is they probably wouldn't even bother asking anyone with experience operating in that part of the World.

The current powers that be would just say, "We know best!"  🤣🤣

I can assure you the Haitian gangs are well armed.  The Shower Posse in Jamaica had RPGs, AK47s, .50cals, etc.  😉


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Not to sound too dark, but unless the street gangs have a supplier of RPG’s & a fairly well distributed network of pricks missing some fingers throughout the country, the fight at the tactical level is fairly achievable.
> 
> (Assuming the gangs aren’t using any respawn hacks…)
> 
> But agreed, the strategic fight is unwinnable in the country’s current form.  Cest pool of corruption, greed, lack of education & poor attitude at the politician level means it’s a place where aid money goes to die…as proven by their current state.


The street gangs in Haiti are well equipped with all the latest and greatest tools to conduct the type of insurgency to make life very uncomfortable for an occupying army. Just ask the Brazilians:


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## Humphrey Bogart (22 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Well, to be fair, our last "blue helmets" mission in Mali wasn't exactly unarmed.


Big difference doing what we were doing in Mali  vs what we would be doing in Haiti.   I've heard our ROE and National Caveats were pretty restrictive in Mali.

My understanding is the GoC went to great lengths to ensure we worked as little as possible with the French/G5 and focused almost exclusively on MINUSMA, to keep us out of those sticky combat situations.


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## PuckChaser (22 Nov 2022)

I dunno why everyone is upset, it'll only be 5 Bde deploying there anyways.


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## OldSolduer (22 Nov 2022)

IF I were asked to provide my thoughts :

1. Stay away from Haiti;
2. If you can't or won't then be prepared to deal with the possibility of Canadian troops (white for the most part) shooting "poor underpriveleged People of Colour" even if they are armed and shooting at our troops. Better have a few lawyers and some good PA types. 

Its a shit show. Stay away.


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## OldSolduer (22 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Mortars?! On a Peace Support Operation?!
> 
> Next thing you'll tell me is you want out folks out there with more than 5 mags rounds and a white APC to show these wayward souls that convening diplomacy is the only way to resolve conflicts....
> 
> ...


FTFY


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## daftandbarmy (23 Nov 2022)

Some Haitians aren't keen on more foreign intervention, so I assume that Trudeau's intervention criteria couldn't be met anyways:

To some Haitians, another foreign military force would be “greatest humiliation”
​​The Haitian government’s request for international military forces to stop the country’s humanitarian crisis and restore security has raised the ire of many Haitians who insist Haitian institutions should take the lead. Calling the crises a ploy to draw in foreign forces in the first place, some also vowed to protest anew against such measures.

“We should chain the doors of all offices of public institutions until Prime Minister Ariel Henry leaves,” said Ebens Cadet, spokesperson of Nou Konsyan, an anti-corruption activist group in Port-au-Prince. “We should also gather in front of the different countries’ embassies in Haiti, including the United States, France and Canada, to make ourselves heard.”

“We do not accept the presence of foreign forces on our territory,” Cadet said.









						To some Haitians, another foreign military force would be “greatest humiliation”
					

Haiti’s government decision to ask the international community for military support has created a stir among Haitians, with some saying they are ready to protest anew against such measures




					haitiantimes.com
				




​​​


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## ringo (23 Nov 2022)

Haiti waste of time money and effort, don't waste a cent of Canadian money or lives.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Some Haitians aren't keen on more foreign intervention, so I assume that Trudeau's intervention criteria couldn't be met anyways:
> 
> To some Haitians, another foreign military force would be “greatest humiliation”​​​The Haitian government’s request for international military forces to stop the country’s humanitarian crisis and restore security has raised the ire of many Haitians who insist Haitian institutions should take the lead. Calling the crises a ploy to draw in foreign forces in the first place, some also vowed to protest anew against such measures.
> 
> ...



I think that may have been the point of Trudeau's stipulation.  He's saying no, without having to say no.


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## CICOPS (23 Nov 2022)

Haiti needs to be put under adult supervision.  Unfortunately we lack that here in North America too.


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## FormerHorseGuard (23 Nov 2022)

National Post has an interesting take on this 
nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-going-to-invade-haiti

Not even sure we have the equipment to move enough equipment fast enough

I would not even be able to guess what  would be needed or how to move it.

Aircraft could move the equipment in if the airport is serviceable, and if the people are willing to allow the aircraft to land unmolested. 

This would be a complete war like operation to get troops on the ground 

cargo landing ships would make this easier, can they wait for Canada to have them built?


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## GR66 (23 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Some Haitians aren't keen on more foreign intervention, so I assume that Trudeau's intervention criteria couldn't be met anyways:
> 
> To some Haitians, another foreign military force would be “greatest humiliation”​​​The Haitian government’s request for international military forces to stop the country’s humanitarian crisis and restore security has raised the ire of many Haitians who insist Haitian institutions should take the lead. Calling the crises a ploy to draw in foreign forces in the first place, some also vowed to protest anew against such measures.
> 
> ...


I think if Afghanistan and Iraq have taught us anything is that reform has to come from within the country.  It can't be imposed from without.

If we are going to "intervene" it should be limited to helping the Haitian government strengthen their own institutions under their own direction.  Assist them in providing their own good governance (infrastructure, policing, judiciary, security forces, anti-corruption, etc.).  But the key is they need to actually do the work themselves, not have us do it for them.  Foreign doners can provide financial and technical assistance if required but the minute we start actually doing the tasks for them (including security and policing) it is something that is being imposed upon them and will be resisted.

$0.02


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## medicineman (23 Nov 2022)

I seem to recall during my sojourn down there in 2004 that when the narcos were being handled by us (us being the Canadian, US, French and Chilean coalition forces), we were accused of being terrorists by the NDP's leader because a constituent's drug and gun running operation was being disrupted by coalition forces (pre-MINUSTAH).  The place is a failed nation state a hundred times over and needs to be taken in hand/over by a willing and strong willed country and rebuilt from the ground up, properly supported, and eventually eased from the nest with ongoing tech support for years to come.  I don't see anybody around willing to take on that responsibility after our fiascos there and elsewhere in the world.

My $0.02

🍿


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## Humphrey Bogart (23 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> I think if Afghanistan and Iraq have taught us anything is that reform has to come from within the country.  It can't be imposed from without.
> 
> If we are going to "intervene" it should be limited to helping the Haitian government strengthen their own institutions under their own direction.  Assist them in providing their own good governance (infrastructure, policing, judiciary, security forces, anti-corruption, etc.).  But the key is they need to actually do the work themselves, not have us do it for them.  Foreign doners can provide financial and technical assistance if required but the minute we start actually doing the tasks for them (including security and policing) it is something that is being imposed upon them and will be resisted.
> 
> $0.02


There could be a case for a limited intervention of a short-term duration but the danger of mission creep, especially with the current crop of ideologues we have in power, is incredibly high.  

This would involve us:

A) Picking a side
B) Absolutely smashing anyone that opposes that side, with lots of controlled violence.
C) Leaving on conclusion of that task.

The question then becomes: "Is that side the current Government of Haiti?  Or is it someone else?"

Anyone wanting to get us involved with things like "Nation-building", "Hearts and Minds", "Spreading Democracy", etc... needs to be told to screw off.


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## Humphrey Bogart (23 Nov 2022)

medicineman said:


> I seem to recall during my sojourn down there in 2004 that when the narcos were being handled by us (us being the Canadian, US, French and Chilean coalition forces), we were accused of being terrorists by the NDP's leader because a constituent's drug and gun running operation was being disrupted by coalition forces (pre-MINUSTAH).  The place is a failed nation state a hundred times over and needs to be taken in hand/over by a willing and strong willed country and rebuilt from the ground up, properly supported, and eventually eased from the nest with ongoing tech support for years to come.  I don't see anybody around willing to take on that responsibility after our fiascos there and elsewhere in the world.
> 
> My $0.02
> 
> 🍿


Exactly!  Most of the illegal guns in other Caribbean Countries come from Haiti.  The vast majority of illegal guns in Jamaica for instance, were smuggled there from the USA via Haiti.  It's basically Somalia of the Western Hemisphere.  

I doubt we would get much help from the CARICOM if we went in either, most of the Caribbean Countries hate Haitians LOL, "ThEy Be ThIeVeS MaN"!  Is a common phrase I've heard used by people from Trinidad, Jamaica, Barbados, DR, etc when describing Haitians.


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## YZT580 (23 Nov 2022)

So that would be enhancing our activities in the PACIFIC,  NORAD, NATO, and now adding a war in Haiti to the mix.  And all with what 12000 active troops?  Pardon me if I don't think that we have the manpower resources let alone the hardware


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## Journeyman (23 Nov 2022)

Give Haiti to Trump.   He self-identifies as amazing; let him make it _ahem_ _grate_ again.


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## Quirky (23 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> So that would be enhancing our activities in the PACIFIC,  NORAD, NATO, and now adding a war in Haiti to the mix.  And all with what 12000 active troops?  Pardon me if I don't think that we have the manpower resources let alone the hardware


I suggested a multi-element base out of Puerto Plata in the other Haiti thread. No way we could sustain logistics and basing in Haiti itself. Too dangerous.


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## Humphrey Bogart (23 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> So that would be enhancing our activities in the PACIFIC,  NORAD, NATO, and now adding a war in Haiti to the mix.  And all with what 12000 active troops?  Pardon me if I don't think that we have the manpower resources let alone the hardware


Canada is the King of Tokenism.  We would rather poorly contribute minimal forces and efforts to all of those initiatives and achieve no effects other than to "be seen to be doing something" than dedicate our efforts to a focused objective.  

"Send an old rusty frigate to float around Asia, a poorly equipped rifle company accompanied by a Battalion of Officers to Europe, sprinkle a CP-140 here and there and send a few SOF guys randomly around the World" BAM..... We're Back!


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## stoker dave (23 Nov 2022)

medicineman said:


> needs to be taken in hand/over by a willing and strong willed country and rebuilt from the ground up,


My two cents?

What can we do (other than armed intervention and endlessly throwing money) to allow Haitians to reclaim their country from the gangs and rebuild their own country?

What if we want a stable, economically viable democracy in Haiti more than the Haitians do?


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## Weinie (23 Nov 2022)

stoker dave said:


> My two cents?
> 
> What can we do (other than armed intervention and endlessly throwing money) to allow Haitians to reclaim their country from the gangs and rebuild their own country?
> 
> What if we want a stable, economically viable democracy in Haiti more than the Haitians do?


I was in Haiti in 2004. The locals were interested in 1) food, 2) security, and 3) immigrating. A stable, viable democratic economy was not on the list.


----------



## quadrapiper (23 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Let alone dress alike.
> 
> Within their own unit


Just maintaining the finest traditions of Commonwealth land forces.


----------



## Czech_pivo (23 Nov 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> World Colonial history they won't teach you in school.
> 
> 1) Being colonized by British works out that in the end you are doing better than your neighbours.
> 2) if you can't have that hope for the Portuguese
> ...



Also, a pretty decent chance of being able to be educated back in the UK and/or immigrating to the UK or Canada/Australia/NZ


----------



## Czech_pivo (23 Nov 2022)

GR66 said:


> Does that sound at all like Afghanistan or Iraq to you?  How did they work out?


The only true hope for them is to have Canada 'take them over' a la post WW1 'Protectorate' style for 20-30yrs and run the entire state - meaning revamping the entire education system, taking over the entire police/legal system, building the health care system, water treatment facilities, waste water, electrical grid, garbage collection/disposal - every single facet of government - and starting from scratch. With the UN - not Canada - footing this bill.  

In other words - it will never, ever happen and I'm willing to bet that 100yrs from now my not even born grandchildren will be lamenting what is to be done with Haiti.


----------



## CBH99 (23 Nov 2022)

stoker dave said:


> My two cents?
> 
> What can we do (other than armed intervention and endlessly throwing money) to allow Haitians to reclaim their country from the gangs and rebuild their own country?
> 
> What if we want a stable, economically viable democracy in Haiti more than the Haitians do?


We know how that works out... 😬


----------



## medicineman (23 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Exactly!  Most of the illegal guns in other Caribbean Countries come from Haiti.  The vast majority of illegal guns in Jamaica for instance, were smuggled there from the USA via Haiti.  It's basically Somalia of the Western Hemisphere.
> 
> I doubt we would get much help from the CARICOM if we went in either, most of the Caribbean Countries hate Haitians LOL, "ThEy Be ThIeVeS MaN"!  Is a common phrase I've heard used by people from Trinidad, Jamaica, Barbados, DR, etc when describing Haitians.


Funny you mention that - imagine the look on my face when the UN forces that did show up were from a who's who of 3rd world despotic nations with poor human rights records dealing with THEIR OWN CITIZENS...forget the fact I wandered in on a tour of PRC National Police that were there to teach the Haitian National Police riot control .  The Brazilian MP's that occupied the camp near got into it with a bunch of narcos a night or two before I flew home - tracers flying both ways, sometimes over us, as their check point was kitty corner to us.


----------



## Weinie (23 Nov 2022)

medicineman said:


> Funny you mention that - imagine the look on my face when the UN forces that did show up were from a who's who of 3rd world despotic nations with poor human rights records dealing with THEIR OWN CITIZENS...forget the fact I wandered in on a tour of PRC National Police that were there to teach the Haitian National Police riot control .  The Brazilian MP's that occupied the camp near got into it with a bunch of narcos a night or two before I flew home - tracers flying both ways, sometimes over us, as their check point was kitty corner to us.


But a great War Story.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (25 Nov 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> building the health care system


we cannot give them the Canadian idea of health care, we cannot afford our system, how would they be able to afford it?


----------



## frozen99 (30 Nov 2022)

A good article from an expert on Haiti and its never-ending mess.





						The New York Times is Wrong About Haiti
					

The New York Times recently published a series of articles about the history of Haiti. Unfortunately, I'm writing this essay to call them out. They made two errors. And since this is not an isolated incident, I feel the need to write about it. My main argument is The New York Times is trying to...




					vodoueconomics.substack.com


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Nov 2022)

Apparently they want a foreign strike force to confront the gangs still 😄






						Haiti still needs foreign strike force to confront gangs, official says
					

WASHINGTON — The international community should send a strike force to Haiti to confront gangs even though police have ended a blockade of a fuel terminal that…




					nationalpost.com
				




We should just send mercenaries.  If only Haiti had something of actual economic value, someone would even foot the bill for it.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Apparently they want a foreign strike force to confront the gangs still 😄
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Send nothing. We are not the world's peacekeepers or peacemakers.


----------



## CBH99 (30 Nov 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> we cannot give them the Canadian idea of health care, we cannot afford our system, how would they be able to afford it?


Oh, but we CAN afford the idea of Canadian healthcare.  

What we can’t afford is the consistently stupid decisions made by provincial boards which essentially create burdens on the very health professionals they are intended to organize & serve.  

What we can’t afford is to have healthcare professionals from one country (many of them with loads of experience) come here and have to start from scratch, or wait 8 months while we call their school to verify their graduation/employers to confirm employment.  

(Something that we should be able to accomplish within a day or two)

What we can’t afford is for every whiny little sissypants come into the ER because of a runny nose, or a head cold.  Got a cold?  Go get some Buckley’s & stay home, it’s not an ER worthy emergency.  


In Alberta when we had our health regions, the ‘CEO’s’ of some of those health regions gave themselves salaries in the millions.  

(Calgary Health Region, the director had a salary of $3M a year…plus bonuses!  We  moved away from that system a while back, thank goodness.  But I’m derailing the thread…)

________

Is there any economic potential with Haiti?  Any at all?

(Assuming poverty was minimized and government institutions worked at a minimal level…any economic potential at all?  Any resources or industries that could be assets?)


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Nov 2022)

CBH99 said:


> What we can’t afford is for every whiny little sissypants come into the ER because of a runny nose, or a head cold.  Got a cold?  Go get some Buckley’s & stay home, it’s not an ER worthy emergency.
> 
> 
> I
> ...


IMO the "whiny little sissypants" syndrome is a creation of modern society. A pill for every issue that has to be prescribed by a MD, and little Johnny with the cut finger or Janey with a skinned knee is an emergency and must be seen RIGHT NOW!!


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (1 Dec 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Oh, but we CAN afford the idea of Canadian healthcare.
> 
> What we can’t afford is the consistently stupid decisions made by provincial boards which essentially create burdens on the very health professionals they are intended to organize & serve.
> 
> ...


Each and every Canadian pays $8563.00  in 2022 towards health care, does not matter if your sick or not. You pay it. 





						National health expenditure trends, 2022 — Snapshot | CIHI
					

A summary of key findings from CIHI’s National Health Expenditure Database (NHEX) related to economic growth, governments’ fiscal position, issues to monitor, international comparisons.




					www.cihi.ca
				




The USA  paid $12 530.00 US per person in 2020. Historical | CMS.

People in Haiti makes less than $2.50 a day, how would they ever pay for health care is beyond me.


They need serious help,  economic, military, police,  health care, food and education and that is just a start on the list.  Canada cannot Nation build unless everyone in the world chips in. Not very likely


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 Dec 2022)

They need first aid attendants, Nurses and pharmacists. The First Aiders, do most of the patching. The Nurses do most of the public health outreach. pharmacists, provide and control the drugs along with some medical advice. Meanwhile you can train doctors from there, but they train outside of North America so they learn how to be doctors in a developing country.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Dec 2022)

I think we should just stay the hell out of there. Period. It's an international money laundering scheme and we haven't any money left to play with.

We have enough problems with our own systems, finances and politics. Those should be our priorities. Not someplace that will continue, no matter what international help and aid, to sink into a morass of crime of poverty. This is baked into their DNA and we'll never do enough to stop it. Leave them to their own devices, until someone comes out the winner, then we can deal with that person. Canada shouldn't be spending one red cent in Haiti. 

It's idiotic to borrow money, on the world market,  so trudeau can virtue signal and piss it away in another third world  shithole. Maybe he's even getting some kicked back to his foundation, a la clinton. Nothing about this charlatan would surprise me. Trudeau does absolutely nothing unless he benefits personally from it.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I think we should just stay the hell out of there. Period. It's an international money laundering scheme and we haven't any money left to play with.
> 
> We have enough problems with our own systems, finances and politics. Those should be our priorities. Not someplace that will continue, no matter what international help and aid, to sink into a morass of crime of poverty. This is baked into their DNA and we'll never do enough to stop it. Leave them to their own devices, until someone comes out the winner, then we can deal with that person. Canada shouldn't be spending one red cent in Haiti.
> 
> It's idiotic to borrow money, on the world market,  so trudeau can virtue signal and piss it away in another third world  shithole. Maybe he's even getting some kicked back to his foundation, a la clinton. Nothing about this charlatan would surprise me. Trudeau does absolutely nothing unless he benefits personally from it.




On the other hand...

...if you want to be seen as an International Peacekeeper Extraordinaire and leave a wonderful legacy in your wake that will ensure you can begin your next career with the UN, it could be seen as a heaven sent opportunity


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Dec 2022)

I don't think we have a hope in hell of maintaining our position as the world's boy scouts. I also don't think we have a hope in hell of ever getting a seat. The rest of the world has taken the view of trudeau as a tin pot dictator and have said as much in world forums. Only Canadians stay sheltered, deaf, dumb and blind to the shenanigans perpetuated by his globalist caucus and himself, thanks to his 'favourable' media. He's been measured internationally, politically and media wise, and found extremely wanting. Sending VanDoos back to Haiti won't solve a thing.


----------



## Czech_pivo (1 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Each and every Canadian pays $8563.00  in 2022 towards health care, does not matter if your sick or not. You pay it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Each and every Canadian pays $8563.00  in 2022 towards health care, does not matter if your sick or not. You pay it.





						National health expenditure trends, 2022 — Snapshot | CIHI
					

A summary of key findings from CIHI’s National Health Expenditure Database (NHEX) related to economic growth, governments’ fiscal position, issues to monitor, international comparisons.




					www.cihi.ca
				



*
Not sure the above statement is correct - the cost for each and every CDN is 8563$ in HC spending, - that is very different from the phase 'each and every Canadian pays 8563$ towards health care'. 

40% of Canadians pay *nothing* in income tax - the top 20% of Canadians pay *over 70%* of the total amount of income tax collected. 









						Trudeau is right: 40% of Canadians don’t pay income taxes, which means someone else is picking up the bill
					

Ted Rechtshaffen: The top 20 per cent is likely paying 70 per cent or more of all income taxes




					financialpost.com


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (1 Dec 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> *Each and every Canadian pays $8563.00  in 2022 towards health care, does not matter if your sick or not. You pay it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no you personally do not pay the bill, but our tax dollars do and our debt is paid based on taxes. How would a country pay for a health care system when 2 of the richest countries in North America cannot pay for it without going into debt?  That was my thought, guess I needed to be more clear on it.

How would the poorest Nation in the area pay for health care?


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I don't think we have a hope in hell of maintaining our position as _*the world's boy scouts*_. I also don't think we have a hope in hell of ever getting a seat. The rest of the world has taken the view of trudeau as a tin pot dictator and have said as much in world forums. Only Canadians stay sheltered, deaf, dumb and blind to the shenanigans perpetuated by his globalist caucus and himself, thanks to his 'favourable' media. He's been measured internationally, politically and media wise, and found extremely wanting. _*Sending VanDoos back to Haiti won't solve a thing*_.


Even if we had three full strength battalions of VanDoos (and three more battalions of, say, _Les Volitgeurs_, and two fully equipped regiments of main battle tanks and a a full-up, properly equipped and trained ISTAR regiment and a full strength 4 battery regiment of artillery and a couple of fully equipped Tac Hel squadrons and say, 3,000 combat engineers and 5,000  well trained, properly equipped combat logisticians (and maintainers) that wouldn't be enough to do what probably needs doing in Haiti - a lawless country of 11 Million people.

The current "government" needs to be replaced by an imposed, 'trustee,' civil administration; the county's military needs to be disarmed and so does its huge criminal element - thousands of men will have to be killed because neither group, especially not the latter one, will go down easily. Then order needs to be maintained for years decades while institutions, including proper military and police forces are built and the economy is developed.

That's the work of generations - and it is hard, bloody and thankless work, too.
.
.
.
.
Instead, I suggest we send Justin Trudeau, Melanie Joly, Harjit Sajjan, Ahmed Hussen and Brenda Lucki to tell them to be nice and kind to one another, turn in their guns and stop burning oil and gas.


----------



## Rifleman62 (1 Dec 2022)

Add Steven Guilbeault.


----------



## Quirky (1 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Instead, I suggest we send Justin Trudeau, Melanie Joly, Harjit Sajjan, Ahmed Hussen and Brenda Lucki to tell them to be nice and kind to one another, turn in their guns and stop burning oil and gas.



Haiti is an excellent opportunity for our Super Convening Powers to assemble and stop the fighting.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Even if we had three full strength battalions of VanDoos (and three more battalions of, say, _Les Volitgeurs_, and two fully equipped regiments of main battle tanks and a a full-up, properly equipped and trained ISTAR regiment and a full strength 4 battery regiment of artillery and a couple of fully equipped Tac Hel squadrons and say, 3,000 combat engineers and 5,000  well trained, properly equipped combat logisticians (and maintainers) that wouldn't be enough to do what probably needs doing in Haiti - a lawless country of 11 Million people.
> 
> The current "government" needs to be replaced by an imposed, 'trustee,' civil administration; the county's military needs to be disarmed and so does its huge criminal element - thousands of men will have to be killed because neither group, especially not the latter one, will go down easily. Then order needs to be maintained for years decades while institutions, including proper military and police forces are built and the economy is developed.
> 
> ...



Just for reference, Northern Ireland only has a population of about 1.5 million people and required about 16 battalions of Infantry, plus atts and dets, for over 30 years.

Oh, I forgot... 

Casualty rates? 3000+ dead, times 10 wounded, or so


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> we cannot give them the Canadian idea of health care, we cannot afford our system, how would they be able to afford it?


Whatever you don't give our healthcare system, let a country like Malaysia teach them instead.


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Dec 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> Add Steven Guilbeault.


I'd second that motion. He can virtue signal in Port au Prince until the locals get sick of him. I estimate that to be about three minutes.

We sat in Cyprus for 30 some odd years. The only lives changed was the owners of various businesses near the CANCON camps.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Each and every Canadian pays $8563.00  in 2022 towards health care, does not matter if your sick or not. You pay it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Canada cannot nation build until we build one of our own first.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I think we should just stay the hell out of there. Period. It's an international money laundering scheme and we haven't any money left to play with.
> 
> We have enough problems with our own systems, finances and politics. Those should be our priorities. Not someplace that will continue, no matter what international help and aid, to sink into a morass of crime of poverty. This is baked into their DNA and we'll never do enough to stop it. Leave them to their own devices, until someone comes out the winner, then we can deal with that person. Canada shouldn't be spending one red cent in Haiti.
> 
> It's idiotic to borrow money, on the world market,  so trudeau can virtue signal and piss it away in another third world  shithole. Maybe he's even getting some kicked back to his foundation, a la clinton. Nothing about this charlatan would surprise me. Trudeau does absolutely nothing unless he benefits personally from it.


You can train Haitians with people stationed in the DR and send them back with supplies and hope some good comes out of it. Done right it won't cost to much.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can train Haitians with people stationed in the DR and send them back with supplies and hope some good comes out of it. Done right it won't cost to much.



But then you'd unfairly favour the 'Green Beret' type adherents in the CAF


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can train Haitians with people stationed in the DR and send them back with supplies and hope some good comes out of it. Done right it won't cost to much.


We've been training Haitians for decades.  The Country has gone through multiple iterations of having its Security Forces disbanded and reformed.  We at one point had 100+ Canadian Police Officers training the Haitian National Police and the Acting Commissioner was a Canadian.

The UN was an abysmal failure in Haiti as were our attempts at letting them govern themselves.  Who knew?  Sending Nepalese and Sri Lankans to "sort Haiti out" probably wasn't going to work.

They need to be occupied and have government imposed on them, by as much force as is necessary.  Either that or we need to just accept that they are a failed state and be left to their own devices.  


In terms of what Canada could be doing? If we wanted to claim to have any sort of sphere of influence, the Caribbean is probably it, given our strong economic interests in the area.  

If we wanted to be seen to be doing something meaningful and contributing to international security, Haiti is the place.  We would need to contribute a substantial force though  (significantly larger than what we contributed to Afghanistan) and it could be augmented by other like-minded Countries of similar capabilities and military cultures (Chile, CARICOM, American, France).


----------



## Czech_pivo (2 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> We've been training Haitians for decades.  The Country has gone through multiple iterations of having its Security Forces disbanded and reformed.  We at one point had 100+ Canadian Police Officers training the Haitian National Police and the Acting Commissioner was a Canadian.
> 
> The UN was an abysmal failure in Haiti as were our attempts at letting them govern themselves.  Who knew?  Sending Nepalese and Sri Lankans to "sort Haiti out" probably wasn't going to work.
> 
> ...


Let's be honest here - whatever the 'substantial force' from a military point of view is, it would be dwarfed by what would be needed from a Civil Service, Education, Health Care, Infrastructure Maintenance, Logistics, Transportation, etc, etc perspective.  The need would be well north of 50k qualified people (french speakers as well I might add), across ALL of those areas and probably many that I've not even thought of.  Add to ALL of that, the food and accommodations needed for all of those people and all of the 'tools of the trade' needed for them to effectively do their jobs for the 3+ decades required for this to be successful and voila - its not going to happen.

We need to just stop this fallacy of talking about doing something in Haiti.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (2 Dec 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> Let's be honest here - whatever the 'substantial force' from a military point of view is, it would be dwarfed by what would be needed from a Civil Service, Education, Health Care, Infrastructure Maintenance, Logistics, Transportation, etc, etc perspective.  The need would be well north of 50k qualified people (french speakers as well I might add), across ALL of those areas and probably many that I've not even thought of.  Add to ALL of that, the food and accommodations needed for all of those people and all of the 'tools of the trade' needed for them to effectively do their jobs for the 3+ decades required for this to be successful and voila - its not going to happen.
> 
> We need to just stop this fallacy of talking about doing something in Haiti.


I agree.

It would need to be a long-term commitment and Canada doesn't do long-term commitments outside of NATO and NORAD/Continental Defence.

Afghanistan was an anomaly for Canada and unlike our other Anglo Brothers (Kiwis, Aussies, Brits, Americans), we actively avoid and try and get away with doing as little intervening as possible.  

We also cut tail as fast as we could out of Afghanistan which I believe signals broadly what our intentions are.  

A lot of people compare us to the Aussies but I believe we are diametrically the opposite of them culturally and in how we conduct ourselves Internationally.  They have and continue to intervene in their sphere of influence (South Pacific Islands, East Timor, Indonesia, etc) and they have never shown any qualms about participating in other Anglo-American interventions:  Vietnam, Malaya, Iraq, etc.

Even the Kiwis, who we compare ourselves culturally to, usually march in step with them.

The Aussies launched and led their own intervention in East-Timor.  It wasn't a UN Mission either and would be what could be considered a Coalition of the Willing.  It could even be considered a sort of model that could be used in a place like Haiti.  It would probably be preferable to another failed UN mission.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2022)

I agree we need to stay out of the country, offering training for First Aiders and Nurses, just across the border helps without getting to messy and expensive and does not even require the CAF.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can train Haitians with people stationed in the DR and send them back with supplies and hope some good comes out of it. Done right it won't cost to much.


It will cost more than we have Colin. There's  no money left. It's  all been spent offshore and is never coming back. Let someone else do it. We don't  need it. Everytime we've gone in there, it collapses again. Whether it be corrupt politicians, criminals or hurricanes. We can't  and shouldn't  be trying to push a string down there.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It will cost more than we have Colin. There's  no money left. It's  all been spent offshore and is never coming back. Let someone else do it. We don't  need it. Everytime we've gone in there, it collapses again. Whether it be corrupt politicians, criminals or hurricanes. We can't  and shouldn't  be trying to push a string down there.


You could do good with less money than your average Liberal election promise. Set up a small campus in the DR, hire local security to protect it. Have NGO send selected Haitians to train as First Aiders, Nurses and take them back. All we provide is some trainers and a budget for supplies and to keep the lights on, and pay the usual assortment of small scale bribes.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

My point being, why even go there in the first place? We have zero connection to Haiti, other than funneling time and treasure down there every ten years. Just to have it revert back to chaos.
There are other francophonie countries that can step up if they are required. How about some French speaking troops from Europe or Africa? Why does it always have to be us.
More people than ever are using food banks. More people than ever are worried about how to heat their homes. Commuters are burning up their paychecks to drive back and forth to low paying jobs.

We have to take care of our own people and country, before we worry about bad actors who will never change. It's the shoemakers children who are always barefoot. We don't need to be Haiti's shoemaker.


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 Dec 2022)

Haiti is a a problem that Haitians need to fix.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

One last thing to toss into the mix. Why is the US democrat government so interested in us taking the lead down there. Could it  be that certain democrats have become persona non grata down there, but still want a big chunk of the action? Maybe a Canadian foundation, set up and operating like the clinton foundation, who interoperate with each other, needs that loveable, wholesome Canadian face to work down there on the clintons behalf and both foundations will  make out like bandits......as always. 

Perhaps.


----------



## YZT580 (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> My point being, why even go there in the first place? We have zero connection to Haiti, other than funneling time and treasure down there every ten years. Just to have it revert back to chaos.
> There are other francophonie countries that can step up if they are required. How about some French speaking troops from Europe or Africa? Why does it always have to be us.
> *More people than ever are using food banks. More people than ever are worried about how to heat their homes. Commuters are burning up their paychecks to drive back and forth to low paying jobs.*
> 
> We have to take care of our own people and country, before we worry about bad actors who will never change. It's the shoemakers children who are always barefoot. We don't need to be Haiti's shoemaker.


Off-topic:  so how many applications have been received by DND from this group?  Jobs, good jobs are there.  Dozens of shipping firms are advertising for drivers and will even pay for training and pay while training and they aren't getting many takers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Off-topic:  so how many applications have been received by DND from this group?  Jobs, good jobs are there.  Dozens of shipping firms are advertising for drivers and will even pay for training and pay while training and they aren't getting many takers.


There are already other threads on that subject.


----------



## YZT580 (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> There are already other threads on that subject.


you are absolutely right.  that is why it is labelled off topic but it does tie several together.  Now back to the regularly scheduled reasons for staying out of Haiti


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Haiti is a a problem that Haitians need to fix.


Bingo. Sir you have won the Internet for the day.

As I see this Haiti situation it will be hundreds of years until they get beyond where that failed nation is now. Thank you to Papa Doc and his supporters - domestic and foreign.

STAY AWAY FROM HAITI


----------



## rmc_wannabe (2 Dec 2022)

You'd think after 20 years of COIN and "nation building" in Afghanistan would have been enough not to want to wander into another quagmire.


----------



## GR66 (2 Dec 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> You'd think after 20 years of COIN and "nation building" in Afghanistan would have been enough not to want to wander into another quagmire.


But now we're experienced!  😝


----------



## rmc_wannabe (2 Dec 2022)

GR66 said:


> But now we're experienced!  😝



Experience is a hard teacher; She gives the test first and the lesson after. 

There are still quite a few of us who remember the lesson.... most of our politicians were out in the smoke pit apparently


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> My point being, why even go there in the first place? We have zero connection to Haiti, other than funneling time and treasure down there every ten years. Just to have it revert back to chaos.
> There are other francophonie countries that can step up if they are required. How about some French speaking troops from Europe or Africa? Why does it always have to be us.
> More people than ever are using food banks. More people than ever are worried about how to heat their homes. Commuters are burning up their paychecks to drive back and forth to low paying jobs.
> 
> We have to take care of our own people and country, before we worry about bad actors who will never change. It's the shoemakers children who are always barefoot. We don't need to be Haiti's shoemaker.



Meanwhile, France


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Dec 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> You'd think after 20 years of COIN and "nation building" in Afghanistan would have been enough not to want to wander into another quagmire.


Remember “Canada is back!” 
Who uttered those words??


----------



## Kat Stevens (3 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Remember “Canada is back!”
> Who uttered those words??


He also said we wouldn’t recognize this place when he was done. So far, so…. good?


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (8 Dec 2022)

Bob Rae is being sent to see what Canada can do there?  
Wonder what the report will say 








						Bob Rae heads to Haiti in attempt at political consensus, amid possible intervention
					

Canada is trying to dislodge a political impasse in Haiti by sending one of its top diplomats to Port-au-Prince. Bob Rae, Canada's ambassador to the United Nations, started an in-person push for negotiations Wednesday.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Bob Rae is being sent to see what Canada can do there?
> Wonder what the report will say
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, we sure sent our heavy hitters to back up those Haitians 🤣


----------



## GK .Dundas (8 Dec 2022)

Makes you wonder who Bob Rae offended ?


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> Bob Rae is being sent to see what Canada can do there?
> Wonder what the report will say
> 
> 
> ...


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## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Makes you wonder who Bob Rae offended ?


Who cares? Haiti can have him and keep him. Can we send JT and CF there too? And Bill Blair?


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## FormerHorseGuard (8 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Who cares? Haiti can have him and keep him. Can we send JT and CF there too? And Bill Blair?


do you think the Haitian people would keep them? Once they found out the cost of keeping them in style they would return them on the next flight out at our cost.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2022)

"We will not engage in Haiti without concensus from all parties."

"We're sending Bob Rae to Haiti to get concensus from all parties."

Our current government are all snake oil salesmen and carpet baggers. Why go through this charade if you're intent on going in anyway?


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## GK .Dundas (8 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> "We will not engage in Haiti without concensus from all parties."
> 
> "We're sending Bob Rae to Haiti to get concensus from all parties."
> 
> Our current government are all snake oil salesmen and carpet baggers. Why go through this charade if you're intent on going in anyway?


I don't think we are. 
I think this is a government that is desperately searching for some non embarrassing excuse not to go.. 
Anything else but we aren't prepared to deal with the political fallout of Us killing Haitians or Hatians killing Canadian troops.
Or the equally embarrassing . "We seem to have broken our Army and can't even manage  a figleaf of a platoon sized HQ element.
And that is why we've sent Bob Rae on a basically impossible job.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Dec 2022)

Can't think of a better guy to send  if the goal is too fail, but make it costly enough so it looks like something was done....


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## GK .Dundas (8 Dec 2022)

Actually I think it's pretty rotten of the Government to treat him like this. On the other hand it doesn't surprise me that they would screw over their own Ambassador.


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## Czech_pivo (8 Dec 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Can't think of a better guy to send  if the goal is too fail, but make it costly enough so it looks like something was done....


We could send Stephane Dion - I've no doubt that he do just as good as job as Bob 'Rae Day' Rae will.


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## Czech_pivo (8 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Actually I think it's pretty rotten of the Government to treat him like this. On the other hand it doesn't surprise me that they would screw over their own Ambassador.


Not sure that he is 100% accepted as 'one of theirs' since he crossed the floor from the NDP to the Liberals.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Actually I think it's pretty rotten of the Government to treat him like this. On the other hand it doesn't surprise me that they would screw over their own Ambassador.



After all, he did such a great job in that other 'forlorn hope', Myanmar, right? 


As Prime Minister Trudeau’s Special Envoy to Myanmar, I engaged in extensive research, travel and meetings with key interlocutors from October 2017 to March 2018 to assess the violent events of August 2017 and afterward that led more than 671,000 Rohingya to flee their homes in Rakhine State, Myanmar, and seek refuge in neighbouring Bangladesh.

This report focuses on the following four themes: the need to combine principle and pragmatism in responding to the serious humanitarian crisis in both Myanmar and Bangladesh; the ongoing political challenges in Myanmar; the strong signals that crimes against humanity were committed in the forcible and violent displacement of more than 671,000 Rohingya from Rakhine State in Myanmar; and the clear need for more effective coordination of both domestic and international efforts.






						Report of Special Envoy to Myanmar Bob Rae
					






					www.international.gc.ca


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## Maxman1 (8 Dec 2022)

Go get 'em, Bob.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Actually I think it's pretty rotten of the Government to treat him like this. On the other hand it doesn't surprise me that they would screw over their own Ambassador.


He screwed over a whole province without thinking of their welfare or hardship. He's  part of the laurentien elite Power Corp structure. He knew the flea infested mongrels he was laying down with. I have zero pity for him.


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## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2022)

FormerHorseGuard said:


> do you think the Haitian people would keep them? Once they found out the cost of keeping them in style they would return them on the next flight out at our cost.


Can I add Omar Al Gabra and Medecino? And Melanie Joly?


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## Good2Golf (9 Dec 2022)

Czech_pivo said:


> Not sure that he is 100% accepted as 'one of theirs' since he crossed the floor from the NDP to the Liberals.


He was a Liberal Manchurian candidate…always Red…just a very very early element of the LPC strategy to control the far left….which continues to this day…


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## CBH99 (9 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> I don't think we are.
> I think this is a government that is desperately searching for some non embarrassing excuse not to go..
> Anything else but we aren't prepared to deal with the political fallout of Us killing Haitians or Hatians killing Canadian troops.
> Or the equally embarrassing . "We seem to have broken our Army and can't even manage  a figleaf of a platoon sized HQ element.
> And that is why we've sent Bob Rae on a basically impossible job.


I agree.  

This is one thing the government _could_ be honest about, and it would look good on them.

Saying “We are currently in a state of reconstitution.  So between that, our current operations in Latvia, the UK supporting Ukraine, and our standing commitments around the world - if this is something Haiti does decide it wants, it will have to be the UN that assists them” would be blunt, honest, and most Canadians would probably be fairly supportive of a decision not to go at this time.

(Can’t do a platoon sized HQ element?  Oh come now, HQ’s are like our thing!)


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## CICOPS (10 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Makes you wonder who Bob Rae offended ?


I actually wonder what Haiti did to us, that we are sending them Bob Rae!


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## OldSolduer (10 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Can I add Omar Al Gabra and Medecino? And Melanie Joly?


Add David Lametti as well, a apple polishing toadie.

Have I forgotten anyone else that is worthy of a year in Haiti? Oh the Eco Terrorist? 

He can lecture the Haitians on eco stuff. For about three minutes......then...


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## Humphrey Bogart (10 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Add David Lametti as well, a apple polishing toadie.


They can go there and "Convene" our initial entry force 😁


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Dec 2022)

Interesting development; apparently Canada has sanctioned the richest man in Haiti for supporting various gangs that are running wild in the country.

From the New Republic:



> James North/December 16, 2022
> DIRTY MONEY
> The Billionaire Oligarch Who’s Enabling Haiti’s Murderous Gangs​*Businessman Gilbert Bigio is facing penalties for his alleged involvement with the violence that’s engulfed the country during Prime Minister Ariel Henry’s corrupt reign.*​In a stunning new development amid the smoldering crisis in Haiti, Canada has imposed stiff economic sanctions on Gilbert Bigio, who is often described as the richest man in Haiti. The Canadian foreign ministry accused Bigio, along with two other superwealthy Haitians, of using their economic power “to protect and enable the illegal activities of the armed criminal gangs” that are tearing the country apart. For years, Haitians have said Bigio and other oligarchs are complicit in the violence strangling the nation: This year 1,448 people have been killed, with another 1,005 kidnapped for ransom. Until now, however, the international community has stayed mostly silent about Haiti’s corrupt elite.
> 
> ...




 Link


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## OldSolduer (20 Dec 2022)

Retired AF Guy said:


> Interesting development; apparently Canada has sanctioned the richest man in Haiti for supporting various gangs that are running wild in the country.
> 
> From the New Republic:
> 
> ...


All the more reason to stay away and let someone else shoulder the burden. This is nothing but trouble.


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## medicineman (20 Dec 2022)

🍿


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## Will M (4 Jan 2023)

Again Trudeau displays his childish ideas. Can't help others when we have so many problems right here in Canada and caused by Mr Illustrious.


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## dimsum (4 Jan 2023)

Will M said:


> Again Trudeau displays his childish ideas. Can't help others when we have so many problems right here in Canada and caused by Mr Illustrious.


Please elaborate on which problems were specifically caused by the PM.


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## Will M (8 Jan 2023)

dimsum said:


> Please elaborate on which problems were specifically caused by the PM.


It would be a much shorter list to say which ones were not. He certainly exacerbated any problem he encounters.


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## Will M (8 Jan 2023)

Oh yes the covid shots and boosters. Canada still promotes them while many other 1st world countries have identified the serious problems with these vaccines. For better explanation view Dr John Campbell on YouTube. Get the truth, not the mistruths.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jan 2023)

Will M said:


> Oh yes the covid shots and boosters. Canada still promotes them while many other 1st world countries have identified the serious problems with these vaccines. For better explanation view Dr John Campbell on YouTube. Get the truth, not the mistruths.


Denmark and who???


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## Mills Bomb (Yesterday at 17:51)

Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy
					

Last 10 remaining senators leave office, with gangs controlling much of capital, a malnutrition crisis and a cholera outbreak




					www.theguardian.com
				




_"At a summit in Mexico City on Tuesday Joe Biden was expected to lobby Justin Trudeau for Canada to lead an international security force – in part to help stem the flow of Haitian refugees reaching the US."_

Even JT isn't foolish enough to go forward with this, or I don't think so anyway, and who knows if this is even within our capabilities, it would certainly be ugly and costly. I don't think Canadian's or the CAF could stomach what it would take to fix Haiti at this point. Interesting that Biden is still pushing the issue, or maybe he's just calling out our government for having a big voice but never actually taking action. 

For all we know Russia and China are trying to further destabilize the region to cause a headache close to home. Could turn into another proxy war mess depending who gets involved bringing arms in for the rebels, there's a lot of ways I could see this getting bad. Haiti should have never been left to its own control, I feel for the women and children stuck there but at the end of the day this isn't a mess I see Canadians supporting getting involved with.


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## Quirky (Yesterday at 18:44)

Mills Bomb said:


> Even JT isn't foolish enough to go forward with this, or I don't think so anyway, and who knows if this is even within our capabilities, it would certainly be ugly and costly.



Ugly and costly is putting it lightly. I could only imagine it being like Somalia during the Black Hawk down incident.


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## MAJONES (Yesterday at 20:26)

We’ve got nobody to send, no way to get them there and no supplies to give them.


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## daftandbarmy (Yesterday at 21:03)

MAJONES said:


> We’ve got nobody to send, no way to get them there and no supplies to give them.



Which is exactly why we'll probably send a Battle Group, right?


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## childs56 (Yesterday at 21:12)

MAJONES said:


> We’ve got nobody to send, no way to get them there and no supplies to give them.


We have the AOPs with the Hot Weather Package. We can patrol and go anywhere now, those ships can deliver troops and supplies in limited quantities as needed. We have enough of the ships to do round trips to Miami and sustain operations........What a posting that would be forward Deployed to Mayport.


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## Colin Parkinson (46 minutes ago)

China might offer to secure it, as long as they get to build a naval base there.


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## dapaterson (38 minutes ago)

They're already allegedly building a base in Argentina.  Watch out Malvinas!









						Argentina accused of allowing China to build naval base
					

Recent reports have alleged that China has secured permission to build a port in the province that could become a naval base, with Chinese investments pouring into the area.




					www.express.co.uk


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