# Canada Expresses Outrage over Afghan Women's law



## ltmaverick25 (1 Apr 2009)

Came across this article on CTV.ca just now and I didnt see it posted anywhere else so I thought I would toss it up here.  Im not sure if this is the right section, or if ive followed the right format for a news post.  But here it is anyway.


http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090331/afghan_women_090331/20090331?hub=TopStories

Canada expresses outrage over Afghan women's law
Updated Tue. Mar. 31 2009 7:35 PM ET

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Canadian officials contacted the Afghan government Tuesday to express concern about controversial new legislation that would reportedly allow men to rape their wives. 

The Canadian government reacted with outrage following reports that the Karzai administration has approved a wide-ranging family law for the country's Shia minority. 

Various reports say the legislation would make it illegal for Shia women to refuse their husbands sex, leave the house without their permission, or have custody of children. 

Canadian officials contacted the office of President Hamid Karzai, and Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon spoke to two Afghan cabinet ministers Tuesday seeking clarification. 

Karzai's office has so far refused to comment on the legislation, which has been criticized by some Afghan parliamentarians and a UN women's agency but has not yet been published. 

Critics say Hamid Karzai's government approved it in a hurry to win support in the upcoming election from ethnic Hazaras -- a Shia Muslim minority that constitutes a crucial block of swing voters. 

Canada, which has lost 116 soldiers in Afghanistan and spent up to $10 billion propping up the Karzai government, has demanded more information about the law. 

"If these reports are true, this will create serious problems for Canada," said International Trade Minister Stockwell Day. 

"The onus is on the government of Afghanistan to live up to its responsibilities for human rights, absolutely including rights of women. . . 

"If there's any wavering on this point from the government of Afghanistan, this will create serious problems and be a serious disappointment for us." 

Day was fielding questions in the House of Commons about the reported law while his colleague, Cannon, was in Europe attending an international summit on Afghanistan. 

Cannon asked for more information from Afghan Foreign Minister Rangin Dadfar Spanta and Interior Minister Mohammad Atmar. 

Late Tuesday, Canadian officials said they had learned the law was not yet in effect but that they remained "very concerned." 

The Afghan constitution guarantees equal rights for women, but also allows the Shia to have separate family law based on religious tradition. 

Some international monitors have avoided discussing the issue, for fear of feeding the impression that exists among Afghans that their government takes its marching orders from the West. 

But female parliamentarians in Afghanistan have condemned the legislation, as has the United Nations Development Fund for Women. They were joined Tuesday by the NDP, which has opposed the Afghan military mission. 

"How can we say that our soldiers are there to protect women's rights when the Western-backed leader of this nation pushes through laws like this?" said NDP MP Dawn Black. 

"Allowing women to be treated like a piece of property . . . is this what we're fighting for? Is this what our people are dying for in Afghanistan?"


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## mr.rhtuner (1 Apr 2009)

Seems like Afghanistan's government and their military/police are a lost cause, it seems like they want to keep living in their mud huts with their barbaric ways.

 :-\


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## ltmaverick25 (1 Apr 2009)

It looks to me like politics of the worst kind.  Karzai appears to be selling out women's rights to win a block of votes.  To be honest, I was at a loss when I read this.  I have always been a stalwart support of our missing, and being there ect...  But news like this just kicks that positive outlook right in the balls.


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## combat_medic (1 Apr 2009)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/31/hamid-karzai-afghanistan-law

Text:

Hamid Karzai has been accused of trying to win votes in Afghanistan's presidential election by backing a law the UN says legalises rape within marriage and bans wives from stepping outside their homes without their husbands' permission.

The Afghan president signed the law earlier this month, despite condemnation by human rights activists and some MPs that it flouts the constitution's equal rights provisions.
Jon Boone reveals Afghanistan's new law denying women's rights Link to this audio

The final document has not been published, but the law is believed to contain articles that rule women cannot leave the house without their husbands' permission, that they can only seek work, education or visit the doctor with their husbands' permission, and that they cannot refuse their husband sex.

A briefing document prepared by the United Nations Development Fund for Women also warns that the law grants custody of children to fathers and grandfathers only.

Senator Humaira Namati, a member of the upper house of the Afghan parliament, said the law was "worse than during the Taliban". "Anyone who spoke out was accused of being against Islam," she said.

The Afghan constitution allows for Shias, who are thought to represent about 10% of the population, to have a separate family law based on traditional Shia jurisprudence. But the constitution and various international treaties signed by Afghanistan guarantee equal rights for women.

Shinkai Zahine Karokhail, like other female parliamentarians, complained that after an initial deal the law was passed with unprecedented speed and limited debate. "They wanted to pass it almost like a secret negotiation," she said. "There were lots of things that we wanted to change, but they didn't want to discuss it because Karzai wants to please the Shia before the election."

Although the ministry of justice confirmed the bill was signed by Karzai at some point this month, there is confusion about the full contents of the final law, which human rights activists have struggled to obtain a copy of. The justice ministry said the law would not be published until various "technical problems" had been ironed out.

After seven years leading Afghanistan, Karzai is increasingly unpopular at home and abroad and the presidential election in August is expected to be extremely closely fought. A western diplomat said the law represented a "big tick in the box" for the powerful council of Shia clerics.

Leaders of the Hazara minority, which is regarded as the most important bloc of swing voters in the election, also demanded the new law.

Ustad Mohammad Akbari, an MP and the leader of a Hazara political party, said the president had supported the law in order to curry favour among the Hazaras. But he said the law actually protected women's rights.

"Men and women have equal rights under Islam but there are differences in the way men and women are created. Men are stronger and women are a little bit weaker; even in the west you do not see women working as firefighters."

Akbari said the law gave a woman the right to refuse sexual intercourse with her husband if she was unwell or had another reasonable "excuse". And he said a woman would not be obliged to remain in her house if an emergency forced her to leave without permission.

The international community has so far shied away from publicly questioning such a politically sensitive issue.

"It is going to be tricky to change because it gets us into territory of being accused of not respecting Afghan culture, which is always difficult," a western diplomat in Kabul admitted.

Soraya Sobhrang, the head of women's affairs at the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, said western silence had been "disastrous for women's rights in Afghanistan".

"What the international community has done is really shameful. If they had got more involved in the process when it was discussed in parliament we could have stopped it. Because of the election I am not sure we can change it now. It's too late for that."

But another senior western diplomat said foreign embassies would intervene when the law is finally published.

Some female politicians have taken a more pragmatic stance, saying their fight in parliament's lower house succeeded in improving the law, including raising the original proposed marriage age of girls from nine to 16 and removing completely provisions for temporary marriages.

"It's not really 100% perfect, but compared to the earlier drafts it's a huge improvement," said Shukria Barakzai, an MP. "Before this was passed family issues were decided by customary law, so this is a big improvement."

Karzai's spokesman declined to comment on the new law


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## 1feral1 (1 Apr 2009)

I wish I had more encouraging things to say.

It just goes to show you that as long as the sun rises, the sky is blue and the rivers run, nothing will ever change in that neck of the woods.

No matter how are we try by whatever western influence, we cannot expect them to change to our way of mentality, or expect  them 'over there' to tow the line via western standards, or a mininum democratic (joke) society, with basic human rights, and a gentle push into the 21st century.

A leopard can't change its spots.

Nothing that happens 'over there', no matter how obcene or graphic shocks me anymore (or did it really anyways - outragous violence is as normal as a hockey fight in the 1st period), for that has become the normal way of life, and 250 yrs from now, it will be the same old story.

Women with no rights, tribalism to the extreme, barbaric sharia law, and home to international terrorism, plus that cancer called radical islam will continue to flourish. 

We just got to keep it on their shores, and FIGHT to make sure it stays there.

How long will the west tolerate the slaughter of it Sons is yet to be determined.

Then what?

OWDU


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## Kat Stevens (1 Apr 2009)

116 people just all rolled over in their graves.


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## geo (1 Apr 2009)

Well... regardless of how much we spend, how much effort we expend to bring liberal thought to masses of the proletariat who, until only a couple of years ago, were living in the dark ages - following illiterate religious leaders... Rome wasn't created in a day AND there are probably as many steps backwards as there are foreward.


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## NL_engineer (1 Apr 2009)

Just another reason I support the UN [read US Gov] decision to appoint someone to the Afgan Government to limit Karzai's power  :


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## logairoff (1 Apr 2009)

We fight this fight to hopefully make things better for the next generation and not necessarily this one. People that grow up thinking a certain way and believing in certain things no matter how stupid they may be are hard to change. This is why I strongly think that a focus on development and education is so important. Hopefully the young afghanis can change their country and bring in a "better" perspective to the way things are done there. I think education and exposure to democracy/beliefs/ideology is the best weapon to fight radical islam esbecially for the young kids growing up ignorant in a society that doesnt expose them to different thoughts/beliefs. They see the foreign troops, they see Canadian soldiers and American soldiers and have heard of the countries but do they know what these countries stand for? Let's hope we're investing the necessary resources in that aspect.


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## Fiver (2 Apr 2009)

> There is much discussion these days about the mission in Afghanistan and the efficacy of our involvement there. I believe that the answer lies not with the adults - who are already entrenched in their views of the world - but with the children. The children will be the ones to inherit the nation that we are helping to build, and it behoves us to make sure they receive the best possible preparation for the job.


-Capt Martin Anderson, _Outside the wire_ p. 174.

It took many, many decades for Europe to get out of the Dark Ages, and given the nature of our psyche, it is folly to think that, overnight, all the Afghanis will part with the traditions and ways of living that were ingrained in them since childhood. For them, it is _right_, just as slavery was right in the opinion of most Europeans and their colonies centuries ago. So it's up to us to make sure this nation' youth will grow up with minds more open to the world than their fathers.


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## ltmaverick25 (2 Apr 2009)

While I agree that with the argument that old habbits die hard, and that we essentially have to rely on children to build the Afghanistan of tomorrow, I question weather or not these children will turn out any different then their parents if they are being bred and raised by these very same hard liners.

Where are they going to get these new ideas from.  Grated more of them are attending schools, but whats being taught there?  And what will they teach them after we are no longer there?  In order for the generation of tomorrow argument to hold up, we have to have a legitimate way to expose them to other cultures/societies.


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## FastEddy (2 Apr 2009)

Fiver said:
			
		

> -Capt Martin Anderson, _Outside the wire_ p. 174.
> 
> It took many, many decades for Europe to get out of the Dark Ages, and given the nature of our psyche, it is folly to think that, overnight, all the Afghanis will part with the traditions and ways of living that were ingrained in them since childhood. For them, it is _right_, just as slavery was right in the opinion of most Europeans and their colonies centuries ago. So it's up to us to make sure this nation' youth will grow up with minds more open to the world than their fathers.




Very Fine and Noble Sentiments, just out of curiosity, you as a individual, what are you planning to do personally to entrench these new ideologies.

I know what our Brave young Men and Women of the CF's are doing, giving their Precious Lives. 

Cheers.


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2009)

Fiver said:
			
		

> -Capt Martin Anderson, _Outside the wire_ p. 174.
> 
> It took many, many decades for Europe to get out of the Dark Ages, and given the nature of our psyche, it is folly to think that, overnight, all the Afghanis will part with the traditions and ways of living that were ingrained in them since childhood. For them, it is _right_, just as slavery was right in the opinion of most Europeans and their colonies centuries ago. So it's up to us to make sure this nation' youth will grow up with minds more open to the world than their fathers.



Sorry there Fiver, but I have to disagree. I don't buy the bit about the Dark Ages comparison, for this was centuries ago, and it is now 2009 everywhere on this planet.

Children are products of their environment, and where we learned our basic values was at home, yes from our parents and other adults.  We can see this in our own cities, with the new blood line of welfare recipents. What did their parents do? Sat at home, refused to work, drank Bohemian, ate KFC and smoked Export A, while their kids ran amuk on the street all too often. A broad spectrum, but in all too many cases the truth. See where I am coming from? 

Many children 'over there' will grow into AK carrying, IED laying young men, and considering this war has been ongoing since 2001 (when you were just 11), many young men who were kids then, are now fighting against the West as you read this.

We got a long row to hoe, and going on 8 yrs later, I don't think we (the West) have reaped a decent bushell of sustained long term success.

All IMHO of course. Its pathetic, but thats how I see it.

OWDU


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## Fiver (2 Apr 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Sorry there Fiver, but I have to disagree. I don't buy the bit about the Dark Ages comparison, for this was centuries ago, and it is now 2009 everywhere on this planet.
> Time is a measure, it does not convey any standard as far as societies go. It is year 4706 in China, and look at the state of human rights there. What about the many isolated tribes and cultures around the globe? Should we hold it against them that they are not at our level of development?
> 
> Children are products of their environment, and where we learned our basic values was at home, yes from our parents and other adults.  We can see this in our own cities, with the new blood line of welfare recipents. What did their parents do? Sat at home, refused to work, drank Bohemian, ate KFC and smoked Export A, while their kids ran amuk on the street all too often. A broad spectrum, but in all too many cases the truth. See where I am coming from?
> ...



_A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future._


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2009)

Fiver said:
			
		

> _A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future._



Fiver,

I am not a cynic, just basing my thoughts from real life experience (and global history) in well over 33 yrs of military service in two nations during peace and war, not out of some text book in a library. I will be 50 in October.

WRT the Chinese human rights etc. Currently, its not the Chi-Coms who are killing us. Its been since the Korean War since we fought Chinese soldiers.

I buy Kraft crackers and orange flavoured tang made in China. The PRC may violate many of the rules by our standards, and have some isolated areas, but overall it is in the 21th century, and is excelling in trade strength. The PRC is Australia's largest trading partner, and today in your home there are many Chi-Com made products you use.

Taliban and radical islamic insurgents/supporters cannot be compared to anything going on in the PRC (they too have issues with radical islam). Overall though, its apples and oranges in comparison.

Medrassas (spelling?) flaunt enough hatred for the west in their islamic teachings with young impressionable muslim youths, and these schools teaching this anti-western ideals have been found in our own countries. Plenty 'over there' to flourish and impregnate young eager minds. Many teenagers readily turn to radical Islam.

We all know how resentful the culture is when it comes to educating women, and  basic rights, we take for granted here in the land of the Great Satan. Recently in the KSA, a woman in her 70s was sentanced to 40 lashes and gaol time for having two males in her home who were not relatives.

The whole region has issues which most Canadians citizens cannot even comprehend, aside from hearing it on the news over dinner as they shake their heads, simply try living in it, I endured for 3 days shy of 7 months, and I was happy to get home.

The problems 'over there' will not be rectified in 50 yrs let along a century or two. Thats just how it is.

IMHO, your solutions do not equate the reality of real life, but it would be nice if it was so easy.

OWDU.


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## Fiver (2 Apr 2009)

Well, screw the world then. You convinced me. After all, it is a proven fact that unquestionable faith only grows stronger as each generations expand their knowledge of the world. We are still burning witches and executing people questioning the Bible. Not to mention that we keep building new churches to keep up with the demand.

And the fact that education was up until recently almost nonexistent over there has nothing to do with the radical religious beliefs held by most of them. Also, it is only a coincidence that every radical regimes in history have restricted access to education.

I don't understand why you bring up all these things about China though. I was merely pointing out the fact that even though most of the world lives in the "21st" century, it doesn't mean that everyone inevitably should hold the same values everywhere. And that the number of the centuries in the calendar of a culture doesn't make it a better place to live. 
Were you born in Afghanistan 49 years ago, with the same body, the same brain, you, too, would very probably not think highly of women's rights, and you would have 2 wives, maybe one of those a cousin of yours, and many kids. And you would resent the Westerners for telling you what you should think, because all your life you wouldn't had known better.

Not saying that our views are perfect either.


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## TimBit (2 Apr 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Sorry there Fiver, but I have to disagree. I don't buy the bit about the Dark Ages comparison, for this was centuries ago, and it is now 2009 everywhere on this planet.
> 
> Children are products of their environment, and where we learned our basic values was at home, yes from our parents and other adults.  We can see this in our own cities, with the new blood line of welfare recipents. What did their parents do? Sat at home, refused to work, drank Bohemian, ate KFC and smoked Export A, while their kids ran amuk on the street all too often. A broad spectrum, but in all too many cases the truth. See where I am coming from?
> 
> ...



Exactly! Look at it this way (which will be simplistic, but...): Islam was founded 500 years after Christianity. Religions, like States and cultures, go through various stages of maturation through which their thinking evolve on issues including human rights. Well 500 years ago Christianity wasn't much better off, burning people at the stake, priests living in luxurious monasteries while poors were dying everywhere.

Saying that our values right here, right now are better, is moral blindness at its best. For a lot of people in radical islam, our treatment of elderlies and of the poor are inacceptable. Pornography is inexcusable and the breakdown of our social institutions and networks (ever read "Bowling alone"?) are signs of western decay.

So while I am not too fond either of the treatment of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the world, or children for that matter, or the place of religion elsewhere, it is a fact of life that their beliefs are, in their mind, better than ours and will always be, and the only way that you can judge them to be right or wrong is by claiming some form of dubious moral high ground, probably derived from our belief that the Enlightment period and its philosophical child, liberalism, are the be-all of history. Now some people already claimed that in the past (Fukuyama for one) and retracted eventually... simply put, it is not.

Anyway I'm wandering here. In a nutshell, I don't think any intervention, be it pure military or 3D, will ever replace some country's "backward" beliefs with our "modern", "humane" ones. Besides, even if it were, we would have to intervene in about 60% of the world to spread our moral superiority... Crusades, anyone?

That said, before anyone stomps me, I am professionnally 100% behind the mission.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Apr 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> 116 people just all rolled over in their graves.



Interesting you should mention that - from the Canadian Press:


> .... Several members of Harper's cabinet voiced similar outrage, as did opposition politicians and one military family.  *"My son gave his life up for all these causes and to have President Karzai's government bring in a law like that, that's insulting,"* said Jim Davis of Nova Scotia, whose son, Cpl. Paul Davis, was killed in Afghanistan in 2006.  However, he agreed Canada must continue working to modernize the country ....


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2009)

I'm p*ssed. Really. I'm speechless right now. I'll post later when I'm a bit more coherent.

Thanks :rage:


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## tomahawk6 (2 Apr 2009)

Lets not confuse the mission being synonymous with us imposing our beliefs on the local culture. People preach the gospel according to COIN and yet get angry when the locals dont share our cultural beliefs. Our mission in Afghanistan is to kill taliban/al qaeda thus buying time for the Afghan security forces to standup, exactly as we have done in Iraq. The men and women that have given their lives in this endeavor did so in a much higher cause than women's rights or other similar western beliefs that are not shared in the third world.


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## GAP (2 Apr 2009)

Well, let's see

The US speculates about replacing Karzai, muses about limiting his power.

Karzai is up for reelection, therefore he must pander to the voting public

The voting public in Afghanistan, like in Canada, vote based on some of the most outrageous ideals/promises that you have to shake you head at, but they do.

And we wonder why this is coming into the fore now? All the noise aside, we should have known something of this calibre was coming down the pipe....Karzai could/has given lessons on how win friends and lose a country....


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## TimBit (2 Apr 2009)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Lets not confuse the mission being synonymous with us imposing our beliefs on the local culture. People preach the gospel according to COIN and yet get angry when the locals dont share our cultural beliefs. Our mission in Afghanistan is to kill taliban/al qaeda thus buying time for the Afghan security forces to standup, exactly as we have done in Iraq. The men and women that have given their lives in this endeavor did so in a much higher cause than women's rights or other similar western beliefs that are not shared in the third world.



Agreed 100%.



> The voting public in Afghanistan, like in Canada, vote based on some of the most outrageous ideals/promises that you have to shake you head at, but they do.
> 
> And we wonder why this is coming into the fore now? All the noise aside, we should have know something of this calibre was coming down the pipe....Karzai has given lessons on how win friends and lose a country....



Ah the woes of democracy. I mean poor guy Karzai though, his position mustn't feel like a comfortable one.


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## geo (2 Apr 2009)

Too true T6.
It might take several generation of Afghans before we start seeing positive results for all our hard work.

If we look at what happened to Iran - the Shah, with US backing, went forward with many democratic principles and western way of seeing/doing things... and we all know how that turned out.


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## theoldyoungguy (2 Apr 2009)

Call my a cynicist but I don't see Afghanistan changing any time soon. That being said I am 100% behind the mission, having served their myself. Education is key, and as said before, Rome wasn't built overnight. Baby steps. A large portion of OUR society is still sexist and racist. Time and education will overcome this. Time and education will overcome their injustices as well.Patience is a virtue. It hurts knowing we as a country, as soldiers who have served and most importantly the friends and family of the fallen, have sacraficed so much, and that we are bearing very little fruit for our efforts. However history is painted with the blood of good men who stood up and sacraficed when the time came for the greater good. We will bear fruit, It might take a little longer than expected but it will come.


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## Fiver (2 Apr 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> Call my a cynicist but I don't see Afghanistan changing any time soon. That being said I am 100% behind the mission, having served their myself. Education is key, and as said before, Rome wasn't built overnight.



That's not cynicism, it's being realistic . 

Also, to clarify my previous posts, the Western world shouldn't shove their democracy and beliefs down other people's throats. The only things that need to be done are to remove regimes oppressing populations, and to make sure that those populations can, if willing to, learn and develop in schools. We can't force our values unto them, they should get their own conclusions after having seen the world's past. Who knows, they might even evolve at set of morals that we will find better than ours. If we make sure they can have access to history and sciences and literature and philosophy and etc., perhaps we can spare them centuries of slow, painful development (or no progress at all) and reduce this to decades. Our Renaissance was in big part started when people rediscovered the ancient Greek and Roman cultures.


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2009)

Fiver - This comes from the father of a fallen soldier,and a soldier himself:

You are correct in saying we can't force "Western" values down other peoples throats. I'm speechless,again....and I'm tired of the apologist line "we can't shove things down their throats"
I'm sorry, I can't agree. If my neighbour is beating his wife....I'm forcing my beleifs on him via the police or if necessary....I WILL FORCE my physical presence on his cowardly a**.
Same applies here. Behave like humans and we'll help. Behave like thugs,murderers and wife beaters you will be treated as such.
What's more, I'm tired of having other cultures come here and tell us that we need to tolerate their "culture"of wife beating and marital rape. Yeah....I sure will do that.


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## TimBit (2 Apr 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I can't agree. If my neighbour is beating his wife....I'm forcing my beleifs on him via the police or if necessary....I WILL FORCE my physical presence on his cowardly a**.
> Same applies here. Behave like humans and we'll help. Behave like thugs,murderers and wife beaters you will be treated as such.
> What's more, I'm tired of having other cultures come here and tell us that we need to tolerate their "culture"of wife beating and marital rape. Yeah....I sure will do that.



And then you'll end up in jail! Just like the hypothetical neighbour. This is why we have law, so as to come out of the state of nature, where each and everyone enforce their system of values on others. 

Others think that some of western values or habits are unacceptable, i.e. drinking, abandonning faith, consuming pornography. What if they were to decide and enforce their will upon us? Oh wait, that is in part the reasonning behind Sept 11th. In short, it is unacceptable.

We cannot just go and beat the hell out of someone who disagrees with us... otherwise we lose the moral high ground, and our arguably "better" values will mean nothing.


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## GAP (2 Apr 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Fiver - This comes from the father of a fallen soldier,and a soldier himself:
> 
> You are correct in saying we can't force "Western" values down other peoples throats. I'm speechless,again....and I'm tired of the apologist line "we can't shove things down their throats"
> I'm sorry, I can't agree. If my neighbour is beating his wife....I'm forcing my beleifs on him via the police or if necessary....I WILL FORCE my physical presence on his cowardly a**.
> ...



My points earlier were in relation to the issue regarding the politics of the situation from Karzai's POV.....

Your points about the reality of the situation, I agree with wholeheartedly....


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## logairoff (2 Apr 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Fiver - This comes from the father of a fallen soldier,and a soldier himself:
> 
> You are correct in saying we can't force "Western" values down other peoples throats. I'm speechless,again....and I'm tired of the apologist line "we can't shove things down their throats"
> I'm sorry, I can't agree. If my neighbour is beating his wife....I'm forcing my beleifs on him via the police or if necessary....I WILL FORCE my physical presence on his cowardly a**.
> ...



I agree with you 100%. 

Let's be frank, forget this politically correct stuff. If we dont present/force our values on them then someone else will. That someone that we are competing with at this time is the Taliban/warlords/tribal leaders. The ability to decide on your own after being presented with the opportunity to see the alternatives is what we are offering because the taliban is restricting the freedom to choose and the opportunity to be exposed to any beliefs other than their own. 

I hate it when people refer to certain values as "western" values. The values we speak of are ability to choose, the right to an education, women be treated equally, liberty, justice etc. Western society does not own these values. We have them but we do not own them. We don't make them choose we just fight for their ability to look at different educated choices and alternatives so that they can make a decision they feel will further their individual interests and not a certain group's. 

If women had a say and weren't afraid they will not allow such injustices...so saying that afghanis want to live this way and it's their beliefs is BS. It's flawed because a lot of people dont have a voice or a say in the matter. The opinion being expressed belongs to a certain group that refuses to unclench their fists and release the power they have. I guess you can say that our job is to make sure that fist is unclenched.


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## geo (2 Apr 2009)

There are a lot of people from the Europe & the Middle-East who live in Canada, are good Canadian Citzens - and still have basic intrinsic values that reflect their ethnic group's values and morals.

There are hard working Italian families who speak very little English/French, live in Italian ghettos  neighborhoods and do not support how we do things.  They religiously vote in the Italian elections - (and hopefuly ours too).  They will use every trick in the book to get their daughter to marry an Italian fella.

Same thing for jewish  ghettos  communities.

Are we applying standards that aren't even met in Canada by people who are card carrying Canadians?


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## The Bread Guy (4 Apr 2009)

I can only speak as the son of immigrants who may be seen to have been living in one of those "ghettos neighborhoods" you mention.  That said....

1)  Re:  this...


			
				geo said:
			
		

> There are hard working Italian families who speak very little English/French, live in Italian ghettos  neighborhoods and do not support how we do things.  They religiously vote in the Italian elections - (and hopefuly ours too).  They will use every trick in the book to get their daughter to marry an Italian fella.
> 
> Same thing for jewish  ghettos  communities.



1)  I'm not clear how the practices you mention are outside Canadian law.  However, if the father of one of the groups you mention beats or kills the daughter for not doing what they ask/want, they face justice, not a defence of "but the law says he can" - *HUGE difference* from a *LAW* enshrining two-tier status for certain groups of women. 

2)  Just how successful do you think any Canadian government would be trying to pass a family law saying who these "ghetto neighbourhood dwellers" could marry?  Dalton McGuinty can help you answer that question.

3)  For those wanting more details, the UK's _Times_ has shared more of the text of the new law here (.pdf attached in case _Times_ link isn't working).

4)  A Sun Media columnist has an interesting suggestion for giving the Taliban the finger on this one here (link to Canadian Women for Women in Afghanistan web page here).


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## Jarnhamar (4 Apr 2009)

I guess we shouldn't tell Canadians that it's A-ok in Afghan culture to kill your wife if you think she cheated on you huh


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## Kat Stevens (4 Apr 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I guess we shouldn't tell Canadians that it's A-ok in Afghan culture to kill your wife if you think she cheated on you huh



WHAT!!??  This is brand new information!!  I rescind my objection, and now believe the whole world should be governed this way!


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## The Bread Guy (4 Apr 2009)

According to the Associated Press:


> The Afghan president said Saturday he had ordered a review of a new law that critics say makes it legal for men to rape their wives, responding to criticism from around the world that included sharp comments from President Barack Obama ....



I hops this isn't like a line I remember from the Britcom "Yes, Minister" - " 'The matter is under consideration' means we have lost the file. 'The matter is under active consideration' means we are trying to find the file."


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## OldSolduer (6 Apr 2009)

The way I see it we have two options:

1. Withdraw now. Pull all the troops out, put them in KAF and fly them home with ALL the kit we have there, right down to the last pencil. That is not a very good option is it?
2. Put the pressure on Karzai, and let the ordinary Afghan know this is NOT the way the world operates.  But I forgot, we can't shove our beleifs down their throats right? :rage:

There isn't alot of outrage over this in Canada is there..... it saddens me to think Canadians will go along with this crap. Is this what we have become?


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## Edward Campbell (6 Apr 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> The way I see it we have two options:
> 
> 1. Withdraw now. Pull all the troops out, put them in KAF and fly them home with ALL the kit we have there, right down to the last pencil. That is not a very good option is it?
> 2. Put the pressure on Karzai, and let the ordinary Afghan know this is NOT the way the world operates.  But I forgot, we can't shove our beleifs down their throats right? :rage:
> ...




But, Old Solduer, the fact (and it is a fact) is that we *cannot* – are not able  to – change people’s *culture* quickly or easily. We can try but I am as certain as history can teach me that we will fail.

Culture is a deeply ingrained mix of family/clan _custom_ or habit, ‘folk’ influences like music and nursery rhymes, religion (almost as important, culturally, as nursery rhymes) and, in a measure related directly to “communications,” outside influences.

The European _Reformation_ took about 150 years to “complete” (from 1517 when Luther hammered his _Ninety-five theses_ to a church door until 1648's Treaty of Westphalia that ended the Thirty Years War). It went at breakneck speed in small, largely literate, Scotland – from 1546 when Wishart _et al_ murdered or executed, take your pick, Cardinal Beaton at Saint Andrews until 1560 when Scotland was, by and large, a thoroughly protestant society. But the norm for religious reform is a few generations – say a century. Other cultural influences, like nursery rhymes, last much, much longer than most religious practices and have a greater *deeper* impact – they, like your _“milk tongue”_ (the language you learn at your mother’s breast in the first year of your life), reside deep in our brains and are never erased, even by our professed beliefs.

Modern communication (newspapers and magazines, radio, movies and, above all, TV) *can* exert a great and powerful influence IF they are carefully used. In the 1930s, 40s and 50s a bunch of American entrepreneurs (mostly Jewish immigrants – refugees – from Europe) created and propagated a wholly fictitious but entirely believable “America” through cinema. Arguably they and their “products” did more to change Europe and Japan than did all of the policies of e.g. Lucius Clay or Douglas MacArthur, more even, perhaps, that did George C Marshall. But this form of insidious “soft power” needs to be _administered_ slowly, and gently – people have to seek it, not have it provided to them.

(The Chinese film industry is, right now, using this technique – producing attractive films with excellent production values - to tell a consistent “story” to China and the world. They are replicating the work of the early Hollywood moguls).

A good friend told me this story: in China, in the 1980s, language students listened assiduously to the BBC World Service – which was not jammed – for its excellent language lessons but also for it’s other broadcasts. They *chose* it over e.g. _Voice of America_ (also not jammed) because it had “better” programmes – more interesting, more “attractive” to Chinese teen agers and young adults. With those really first rate language lessons – orders of magnitude better than anything the Americans offered – those Chinese also got a big dose of quiet, understated, British propaganda. It worked. To this day my Chinese friend is, largely, unaware that many of her attitudes were “shaped” by the British. (She was a university teacher, not yet even an associate professor, when the Tiananmen Square protest took place in 1989 – she carried food to the students and barely missed the massacre. Later that year she was accepted for a “visiting scholar” programme in Canada – and later, in the 1990s became a Canadian citizen.)

All that to say that we can, and should, use our “soft power” to try to start *provoking* a “reformation” – a long, long process that will still be going on when you and I are dead and buried. We can provoke, we can explain, we can cajole, we can teach and we can propagandize but we *cannot force* changes. Nothing we did, since 2002, nothing we do now and nothing the CF will is going to do will do much, if anything, to change Afghans' culture – only they can do that. We can, probably will, force Karzai to amend the law. That will do nothing, not one little thing; Afghanistan will not change. Some Afghans will think us bullies and they will dislike us and even more and reject our “advice” even more strongly, but most will just go on, oblivious to our ambitions.

Cultures take a long time to change – generations, centuries. It is foolish to think that we, the US led West, can “bring democracy” to e.g. Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else for that matter.

(Democracy is a fine system, eminently useful for modern industrial economies where a strong respect for and implementation of the rule of law is necessary for commerce. It is not quite so useful in feudal societies. Democracy is an especially hard sell in Muslim societies because “good” Muslims _*believe*_ that absolutely everything one needs to manage a society is in one book: the Koran. _Magna Carta_, the English Bill of Rights, the British Constitution, the American Declaration of Independence and Constitution (which includes the US Bill of Rights in its first 10 articles) are all worthless, inferior to the “rules” set forth in the Koran – all that Muslims must *believe* are necessary to run a state because, apparently, Mohammed never said “render unto Caesar” etc.)

What we can bring to Afghanistan, before we leave, is enough “know how” and infrastructure to allow the legitimate government of Afghanistan to provide enough security so that the people of Afghanistan may make their own decisions (decisions we may not like at all) in their own ways (ways we may not like, either) for themselves. If try to “bring” more we will fail.


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## Fiver (6 Apr 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> [...]



Thanks, I'm not really good with words, much less in languages other than my mother's one.


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## Flanker (9 Apr 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I wish I had more encouraging things to say.
> 
> It just goes to show you that as long as the sun rises, the sky is blue and the rivers run, nothing will ever change in that neck of the woods.
> 
> No matter how are we try by whatever western influence, we cannot expect them to change to our way of mentality, or expect  them 'over there' to tow the line via western standards, or a mininum democratic (joke) society, with basic human rights, and a gentle push into the 21st century.



Finally, it seems that some people is beginning to put aside the rose glasses.

That is exactly the point of view I expressed here many months ago and was heavily beaten for it.  :-\

The basis of any society is economic relations.

As long as they stay primitive and retarded, the society organization is retarded also.

The politics is a product of economy. Not the contrary.
It is not possible to transplant democracy to the society that is economically not ready for it.

As unneeded and unused organs disappear in the human body, unused politic structures disappear in the society.


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