# My CIC Application Odyssey



## LittleBlackDevil

I've searched and found a number of threads talking about various peoples' journeys and how long it takes, the process, etc., but nothing CIC related more recent than 2015. So I thought I'd share my own odyssey as an example, to seek advice where appropriate, and to perhaps give some ideas of how to proceed to others interested in CIC. It seemed appropriate to do this in the CIC sub-forum rather than "Recruiting Process" since it seems things are a little different for CIC and not as generally applicable. 

Just a very brief bit of background -- from 1998 to 2002 I served as an Infantry Officer with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, doing time as the Assistant Adjutant and Finance Officer, then a Platoon Commander. I got out when I was in first year Law School because it was impossible to do both school and army at the same time. Over the years I've often felt the itch to get back in, but never could make it work. Now with my oldest son in cadets I decided to join.

Wanting to help with the corps while waiting to get into CIC, I signed up as a Civilian Volunteer and the CO asked me to act as Supply Officer since they hadn't had one in some time and were in great need.

Getting in as a CV was easy. I just got a vulnerable sector record check from my local police department and handed it into the Cadet League of Canada folks along with my application and photocopies of ID. It took about 3 weeks to get my approval.

Applying for CIC has been interesting. The CO at my corps seemed not to know how to apply, perhaps because her own application was so long ago.

I started looking online at Canada.ca and clicked the "APPLY NOW!" button here: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/other-specialty-occupations/cadet-instructor.html

Which is apparently the wrong way to apply, because after I filled out the application I called the local CFRC to see what the next step was. For about two weeks I was told to call back in a few days because no one really seemed to know what to do. The fourth recruiter I spoke to finally told me I was supposed to do my application through RCSU and put me in touch with the right person who gave me the application package. I filled this out and sent it in and on December 17th, 2019 it was sent back to my CFRC.

I touched base with the local CFRC just before Christmas 2019 and was told they would contact me once they had the package to do the physical. When I hadn't heard anything by January 9th, 2020 I decided to give them a ring to see what's what. The recruiter in charge of my file set me up right away with a Medical for January 16th.

Today at 6:23 pm I received a barrage of four emails all stating the same:

Your appointment(Medical - Part I & II) has been deleted!
Your appointment on 2020-Jan-16 at 10:00:00 has been cancelled (deleted). If you have any questions please contact your recruiting detachment.
Thank you again for your interest in joining the Canadian Armed Forces.

So now I'm waiting until 8 am or so tomorrow so I can call my recruiter back and see what this is all about and hopefully get another Medical in short order. Although considering I had to book a whole day off for this given how far away my "local" CFRC is, it may be a few weeks. I am starting to see that this may be death by a thousand cuts of a few weeks wasted here (the canada.ca site giving wrong application info) and a few weeks wasted there (Medical being randomly unilaterally cancelled by CFRC).

I wonder how many applicants they lose due to the process? They won't get rid of me easily though because I really want to do this, and my experience as a CV has only given me more determination because I enjoy it and I can also see the great need for CIC officer (I'm told that CIC is at about 50% of what it should be across the board and my corps is especially understaffed ... by the fall there may actually be zero uniform CIC officers (because the two we have are just "pinch hitting" as it is), although I assume they'll parachute _someone_ in from a neighbouring unit.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Update ... I spoke to the recruiter handling my file and I'm told that my appointment is still a go for Thursday. 

The speculation is that the medical staff changed who my appointment is with and this triggered the "your appointment has been deleted!" emails.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Did my medical last week. All was well, but since I'm 40 years old, I need to get my family doctor to fill out a form they gave me stating that I'm fit to serve, plus I have to get an EKG, a fasting lipids test, and fasting glucose test. I'm going to see my family doctor about that today.

I am overall in better physical shape than I was in my 20s, quite frankly. I work out 5 times per week so I consider myself in excellent shape for my age. My one concern is getting bounced because I have hypothyroidism. I've seen in the medical forum some posters saying this prevented them from CAF service but I am hopeful that since I'm applying to be CIC not infantry, and since my hypothyroidism is well under control, that this won't be a barrier in my case.

I was told after my medical that they are going to start checking my references and doing background check and that this should take approximately two months, then they will schedule me for my interview. So things seem to be moving along at a decent pace thus far.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Just a brief update ... I still have Hypothyroidism of course, but otherwise passed all my medical tests with flying colours. My physician wrote me a good report saying that he sees no issues with the Hypothyroidism impacting CAF service so hopefully the CAF physicians in Ottawa agree. But my cholesterol, glucose, etc. all "perfect", so now it's just the waiting game for my references to be checked (as of today they all say they have not been contacted yet).

In the mean time I've been continuing work as Sup O with my corps, and just completed my first FTX with the corps last weekend. It was a combined FTX with another corps, and the other corps was running the show so I didn't have to do any of the weekend stores ordering. I have been in contact with the supply folks in London though and am getting sorted out on how to order stores for our spring FTX in May. I really enjoyed the winter FTX including sleeping out in the arctic tents with the cadets (all the other officers stayed in the cabin).

The more I work with the cadets the more impatient I get for my application process to be completed.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=LittleBlackDevil] I really enjoyed the winter FTX including sleeping out in the arctic tents with the cadets (all the other officers stayed in the cabin).

[/quote]

I think that's a great example of (you) leading by example and sharing hardships. 

Take care that you're not setting yourself up to be in a mom vs dad situation with your peers. You don't want the cadets seeing you as the good guy (in the context the other officers suck) or their buddy.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think that's a great example of (you) leading by example and sharing hardships.
> 
> Take care that you're not setting yourself up to be in a mom vs dad situation with your peers. You don't want the cadets seeing you as the good guy (in the context the other officers suck) or their buddy.



Thanks.

Maybe it's my infantry background but I believe firmly in sharing in the hardships of my "troops" or cadets. 

That is a good point to make sure I don't get seen as their buddy or good guy vs the other officers. It's definitely something I'll remain vigilant with. So far, I don't think that's an issue ... partly it is just my general demeanour, I tend to be a more formal and reserved person. But I am still just a CV very new to cadets and trying to learn on the job (and asking the CO lots of questions -- fortunately she instructs several CIC courses so she's a great resource). I'm looking forward to getting some actual training.

One of the other CI's was joking that I'm the "mean" staff member because I hand out the most "red chits" (but I'm also generous with "green chits"). I try to let the cadets know when I issue them chits that I have high standards but I'm not doing it just to be "tough" -- I want to help them to be the best they can be.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=LittleBlackDevil]
But I am still just a CV very new to cadets and trying to learn on the job[/quote]

[quote author=LittleBlackDevil]I'm the "mean" staff member because I hand out the most "red chits" 
[/quote]
I really don't know how cadets operate. Is it normal that a civilian volunteer who is admittedly new to the system to be handing out chits to cadets? As the supply officer what do you hand out all those chits for?


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## LittleBlackDevil

It's probably not normal, but my corps is woefully understaffed (we have the CO and an officer cadet, plus a couple CIs and me the CV).

What we're using is actually called a "record of behaviour" but I have seen other cadet corps use red and green chits for the same thing. It's more of a record keeping system to record when cadets have been praised or corrected rather than a formal reprimand.

Just as an example (this is not the system my corps uses, but similar) here is a "red chit": http://www.608dukes.com/uploads/8/5/5/1/8551447/chit_-_red.pdf

And a "green chit" (also called a blue chit elsewhere apparently): http://www.608dukes.com/uploads/8/5/5/1/8551447/chit_-_green.pdf

Mostly I've issued these outside my role as SupO ... for example on the FTX the other corps' SupO was managing stores and I was assisting with teaching the snowshoeing course and general supervision. I have issued "Records of Behaviour" for things like a cadet making strong sexual innuendo in front of other cadets that I had to take him aside and talk to him about (especially since he was a section 2IC). Or I've issued positive ROBs for a Section Commander who filmed "how to care for your uniform" videos for the new cadets who've recently been issued their kit which I felt was worthy of an "exceeded expectations".

These "chits" are the lowest level of discipline, before anyone gets into verbal warnings or formal cautions. My reading of CATO 15-22 is that you work your way up the ladder if behaviour continues after correction.

Again, I think a CV would not normally be involved in these things, but given the exigencies of the situation at our unit, my prior military experience, the fact I'm in the process of applying, the CO assessed the situation and has given me more responsibility than my position would normally have.


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## LittleBlackDevil

I've been informed by my references that they have been called and had their discussion with the people from CIS. 

So that is another "box checked" and I am getting ever closer. Next step is my interview. I'll give the CFRC a couple weeks and if I don't hear from them about that I'll call and ask for an update on my status. Worked last time with getting a fast medical.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Just got off the phone with my file manager. Although things were going well, it's all come to a crashing halt and it looks like I'm being <REDACTED> over by the medical situation -- i.e. I'm over 40 so therefore medical officers in Ottawa have to review my perfect blood pressure, lipids, EKG, etc. before my process can move ahead. File manager says she has no ETA just that they are "extremely backlogged" and it will be many months.

It's quite disappointing because things seemed to be moving along smoothly and relatively quickly until this little hiccup. They also won't even review the results of my reference checks or do the background check until the medical approval comes. So I'm on indefinite hold with no end in sight. I had hoped to be in uniform before the Cadets broke for the summer but this appears to have been foolish optimism.


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## LittleBlackDevil

To my great surprise, "many months" turned into only six weeks somehow, despite the COVID-19 situation to boot. I just got an email from my file manager advising that my file was reviewed and I have been deemed medically fit last week. Also was told that my background check has been completed (that was done at warp speed given I was told it wouldn't be looked at until medical was signed-off on).

Last step is the interview. This, obviously, is on hold for now but once things improve to the point that CFRC's are open to the public again I'll be able to do that.


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## Colin Parkinson

Congrats for persevering through the red tape. I think I am going to stick with Navy League volunteering to avoid the DND side of things. Your trials reinforces that view as not worth it at this stage for me.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Thanks! There's a bit of persevering yet to do, but there does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel.


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## Gunnar

I started the application process last winter, and saw little action due to the CAF’s exacting reference requirements.  As I describe it, basically someone who’s known you well for over five years, but still doesn’t like you well enough to be a friend.  Can’t be a friend, relative, family friend or co-worker.  Makes it hard if you’re an introvert working for a small company.  Anyway, finally got the required references, and things were quick after that.  Interview and medical within a week, followed by additional tests because I am old, blind and fat.  (Glucose, lipids, ecg).  For my age, I seem to be relatively ok.  Submitted the additional tests on Friday, will wait to hear what’s next...


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## LittleBlackDevil

Gunnar said:
			
		

> I started the application process last winter, and saw little action due to the CAF’s exacting reference requirements.  As I describe it, basically someone who’s known you well for over five years, but still doesn’t like you well enough to be a friend.  Can’t be a friend, relative, family friend or co-worker.  Makes it hard if you’re an introvert working for a small company.  Anyway, finally got the required references, and things were quick after that.  Interview and medical within a week, followed by additional tests because I am old, blind and fat.  (Glucose, lipids, ecg).  For my age, I seem to be relatively ok.  Submitted the additional tests on Friday, will wait to hear what’s next...



Seems like the process is different at different recruiting centres?

Because they wouldn't let me do the interview until after everything else (medical, background) checked out. Both of those were cleared back in May, but I've been waiting since then for interview because I am told CFRC Hamilton is not doing CIC interviews (yet) with no timeline given on when those will resume.

I hear you on the references ... I am self employed and an introvert/too busy running a business and with my family to have a lot of people that qualify. Plus then they rejected one reference because he wasn't a supervisor of me despite the fact that it's not required that ALL THREE references be supervisors. But fortunately I was able to come up with a third person and that's all behind me.

Just waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... to be able to do my interview which I am told is the last step, at least for me.

In the mean time, due to COVID I am taking on more and more responsibilities at my corps, but as a CV I have no access to DLN/Fortress/Logistiks and this makes it much more difficult and reduces how much I am able to do. I could do so much more to help my corps in these times if I had that access.


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## Gunnar

When you submitted medical information, how long did it take them to get back to you?  I've emailed the required tests to them as of last week, and have as  yet heard nothing.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Gunnar said:
			
		

> When you submitted medical information, how long did it take them to get back to you?  I've emailed the required tests to them as of last week, and have as  yet heard nothing.



I submitted my medical information on 21 January 2020, including the "Medical Information for Recruitment Form" completed by my physician, ECG results, and my lab results for cholesterol, glucose, and lipids tests. On the 8th of May I was advised by my file manager that I'd been deemed "medically fit". I was warned at the beginning that it could be up to six months.

Keep in mind that the whole COVID situation exploded and the lockdowns first occurred in mid-March, a little under 60 days of my submission of documents. So I'm not sure how this impacted things as there was a lot of confusion in those early days whereas more systems are in place now.

In terms of hearing back from CFRC Hamilton, I basically just followed-up with them with a phone call or email every 4 weeks or so and when I did my May 8th follow-up I was told that my medical fitness had been approved by Ottawa.


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## Gunnar

So, apparently they get back to you more rapidly when you send your information to the right email address.  Damn long-ass bilingual email addresses.  What I found surprising was there was no bounceback message indicating I'd sent it to an address that didn't exist.  Probably a security thing.  I did request receipt confirmation on one of my first emails, and it stated that the receiver didn't send confirmation messages....ironically, since there would be no other reason to send such a confirmation.

In any case, with the correct address, and a terse explanation of my error from someone at medical, the information has been forwarded to Ottawa, where apparently things are slowed down due to COVID.  I read this as being largely due to the CAF ads running on TV, the pointy end trades are being prioritized and once again CIC has been shuffled to the bottom.  Hurry up and wait.  Sounds like a motto....


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## LittleBlackDevil

Gunnar said:
			
		

> In any case, with the correct address, and a terse explanation of my error from someone at medical, the information has been forwarded to Ottawa, where apparently things are slowed down due to COVID.  I read this as being largely due to the CAF ads running on TV, the pointy end trades are being prioritized and once again CIC has been shuffled to the bottom.  Hurry up and wait.  Sounds like a motto....



Yes this seems to indeed be the case, and it depends on which recruiting centre you're at on how far to the bottom CIC is shuffled.

At CFRC Hamilton they are not even doing interviews for CIC, despite the fact that my CO has been told by her COC that _all_ recruiting centres are supposed to be processing a certain number of CIC applications every month. Some recruiting centres are filling their allotment, others are not I guess ... although I am still waiting to hear back from my Military Career Counsellor and File Manager after I emailed them what I had been told by my CO.

I was also instructed to stay on the recruiting centre and be the greasy wheel. My corps is in dire need of more officers and my ability to assist is greatly impaired as a CV. When we attend in-person training I am told I may not even be able to attend as a CV so another reason to try to make CIC happen somehow.


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## Burrows

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I was also instructed to stay on the recruiting centre and be the greasy wheel. My corps is in dire need of more officers and my ability to assist is greatly impaired as a CV. When we attend in-person training I am told I may not even be able to attend as a CV so another reason to try to make CIC happen somehow.



If there is an open position available to you at the unit, have your CO inquire with your RCSU about a Civilian Instructor (Generalist) contract.  This would make you a paid employee of DND (not the CAF) vs. a Volunteer with the Army Cadet League.

Best advice I can give outside the above is to stay on your file - it will definitely take some time.  Many of the CFRC folks are working remotely and managing what files they can.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> If there is an open position available to you at the unit, have your CO inquire with your RCSU about a Civilian Instructor (Generalist) contract.  This would make you a paid employee of DND (not the CAF) vs. a Volunteer with the Army Cadet League.



I considered this, but was told that it would be very detrimental to my CIC application.

Apparently there might be a workaround for me to attend events since I'm also a parent, so there's more leeway for "parent volunteers" to attend an in-person training to ensure there are enough adults present. 



			
				Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Best advice I can give outside the above is to stay on your file - it will definitely take some time.  Many of the CFRC folks are working remotely and managing what files they can.



I have been in contact with other people who have had their interviews so I know they are happening. Just trying to strike the balance between staying on my file and not being a pain to my file manager/military career counsellor as I'm sure they are doing what they can.


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## catalyst

apparently - if there's an ERC already done and 'owned' by CFRC, an ERC can't be done by the RCSU (needed for paid CI status). Or so it was sort of explained to me. 

We've been told no new CIC processing (initial application) and very limited processing if already in the system - as CFRC is concentrating on RegF SIP and backlogs. 

YMMV.


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## LittleBlackDevil

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> apparently - if there's an ERC already done and 'owned' by CFRC, an ERC can't be done by the RCSU (needed for paid CI status). Or so it was sort of explained to me.



This is basically what my CO said to me as well. 



			
				ArmySailor said:
			
		

> We've been told no new CIC processing (initial application) and very limited processing if already in the system - as CFRC is concentrating on RegF SIP and backlogs.



The yellow is new to me, but makes sense as they try to deal with backlog and prioritize combat arms. It's certainly expected that RegF, reserves, and combat trades would be prioritized over CIC. Fortunately I've been in the system since 2019 so my application will at least be part of "very limited processing".



			
				ArmySailor said:
			
		

> YMMV.




It's a bit frustrating that different CFRCs are dealing with their backlog differently as I have chatted with a few other CIC applicants who have been able to complete aspects of their application that I had already completed, plus complete sections I've not completed as well. Whereas my military career counsellor says CFRC Hamilton isn't doing any CIC end of.

I don't care about the pay, I'd do it for free ... I just want to be able to have access to all the stuff that would make me 1000x more effective, plus be able to actually do my job myself rather than having to get the CO to file my orders with Logistik and such.


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## Burrows

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I considered this, but was told that it would be very detrimental to my CIC application.
> 
> Apparently there might be a workaround for me to attend events since I'm also a parent, so there's more leeway for "parent volunteers" to attend an in-person training to ensure there are enough adults present.



Having never been a CI myself, I cannot attest either way to that.  However, we do have a process specifically designed to move CIs to CIC when the applications are processed.  Best bet would be to have your CO work with the J1 for your region for certainty.

As a CV you are insured by the league during training activities.  I would be hesitant to action unverified workarounds unless you had something in writing.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Well, I received an email from my file manager that definitively puts an end to my application for the foreseeable future if not permanently:



> ... direction recently came down from headquarters that no recruiting centres are to be doing any CIC interviews.



This is very discouraging. I'm not in it for the money, I'd do it for free ... I frankly would do CIC for free, I just want access to Fortress and Logistik so I can do my job properly. But moreover, what really has me worried is that this shutdown of all CIC interviews indefinitely makes me worry that there are plans afoot to shut down/cancel the program which would be a terrible blow to the children involved and a great detriment to Canada. Cadets is such a great program. Canada's best kept secret.


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## Gunnar

So my recruiter informed me that CFRC is done with me, and my app has been sent to RCSU.  From there, it will go to the CO for sign-off.  Looks like I made it thru.


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## Burrows

Gunnar said:
			
		

> So my recruiter informed me that CFRC is done with me, and my app has been sent to RCSU.  From there, it will go to the CO for sign-off.  Looks like I made it thru.



Congratulations!  Stay in contact with the RCSU Recruiting NCO but you are in the home stretch!  Let me know if you have any questions about what comes next!


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## LittleBlackDevil

So I take it Toronto is not considered "south western Ontario"?

Because my recruiter keeps telling me that orders came down that no recruiting centre in "south western Ontario" is to process CIC/COATS applications and that is why my application has been on hold and will remain so indefinitely.

But congratulations to your success, I'm glad SOMEONE is able to join.


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## Gunnar

> Congratulations!  Stay in contact with the RCSU Recruiting NCO but you are in the home stretch!  Let me know if you have any questions about what comes next!



My CO has already been in contact with him.  Apparently the letter hasn't gotten to him yet.   :rofl:  Nice to be loved I guess...


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## Burrows

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Because my recruiter keeps telling me that orders came down that no recruiting centre in "south western Ontario" is to process CIC/COATS applications and that is why my application has been on hold and will remain so indefinitely.




Have you engaged your Chain of Command, including outside of your unit? Your Unit CO should engage your AEA and Area OIC for these types of matters as they can bring it forward to the RCSU COS and other SMEs who may be able to get concrete answers.  Seems to me that this may be a bit of a local direction or misunderstanding and may not be in alignment with what the rest of CFRG is doing.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Have you engaged your Chain of Command, including outside of your unit? Your Unit CO should engage your AEA and Area OIC for these types of matters as they can bring it forward to the RCSU COS and other SMEs who may be able to get concrete answers.  Seems to me that this may be a bit of a local direction or misunderstanding and may not be in alignment with what the rest of CFRG is doing.



Oh yes, I have engaged my own CoC including my CO who I know has been regularly following-up with her CoC. The response she got was that "Formation is working on it".

I've also reached out to the RCSU Recruiting NCO, and was also contacted through Facebook by the J1 RSCU who offered to look into it for me. I haven't heard back from them since I initially reached out but your message reminds me that I should follow-up to see if they've heard anything or need anything further from me.

My understanding is that this (no CIC applications being processed) is a local direction specific to Southern Ontario -- from what my file manager has told me.


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## Blackadder1916

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Oh yes, I have engaged my own CoC including my CO who I know has been regularly following-up with her CoC. The response she got was that "Formation is working on it".
> 
> I've also reached out to the RCSU Recruiting NCO, and was also contacted through Facebook by the J1 RSCU who offered to look into it for me. I haven't heard back from them since I initially reached out but your message reminds me that I should follow-up to see if they've heard anything or need anything further from me.
> 
> My understanding is that this (no CIC applications being processed) is a local direction specific to Southern Ontario -- from what my file manager has told me.



Have you considered making an Access To Information request for the information/documents related to this policy?  If it is a "local" direction, such a request may be an impetus for a higher HQ to ask "WTF".  Granted such an action does not normally get immediate results, but since you've been on hold for an extended period the investment of a little time and $5.00 may be worthwhile.


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## winds_13

LittleBlackDevil, you were informed by the recruiting centre that no CIC applications were being processed in Southwestern Ontario. That is CFRG direction specific to the region, not created locally, due to current pandemic restrictions and the requirement that CIC interviews must be conducted in person.


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## catalyst

We have been given the same direction in BC.  Those in the process will move - v. slowly but priority is RegF production. No new applications will move forweard.


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## da1root

Without getting into specifics any in person interviewing is at a stand still, it is not created by the local CFRC's - it is CFRG policy in conjunction with the Regional/Provincial policies of where that CFRC is located.  Keep in mind that the CAF is a government agency that has to follow the policies being set out by the Region/Province that they are located.

As an added there isn't "less important" people in the recruitment process; however when CFRC staff are working from home and 50% staffing issues and a priority occupation such as Medical Officer requires an interview vice a Reserve HRA and there's only limited interview capacity, please use some common sense on who would get the interview.

These are unprecedented times; recruiting staff aren't putting delays on your file for the sake of it - there's actual reason behind it.  Please be patient.



			
				LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> So I take it Toronto is not considered "south western Ontario"?



Ontario is broke up into two regions:
North & Eastern Ontario which comprises of Ottawa (acting as the Regional HQ), Kingston & Sudbury
Southern Ontario which comprises of Toronto (acting as the Regional HQ), Oshawa, Barrie, London & Hamilton


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## winds_13

Buck_HRA, Ontario is split between two different CFRCs, as you listed... not including Thunder Bay and the majority of Northern Ontario, which fall under CFRC Prairies & The North.

However, Ontario is generally broken down into 4 regions: Southwestern , Central, Eastern, and Northern. Ontario Health Units are further broken down as: South West, Central West, Toronto, Central East, North East, and North West.


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## da1root

winds_13 said:
			
		

> Buck_HRA, Ontario is split between two different CFRCs, as you listed... not including Thunder Bay and the majority of Northern Ontario, which fall under CFRC Prairies & The North.
> 
> However, Ontario is generally broken down into 4 regions: Southwestern , Central, Eastern, and Northern. Ontario Health Units are further broken down as: South West, Central West, Toronto, Central East, North East, and North West.



I'm not going to get into semantics here but Canada is broke apart into 6 Regions for the CFRCs.  When quoting CFRC policy you use those 6 districts and then further break down into the smaller AOR's.  When talking policies you use the Policy of Southern Ontario, not "South Western Ontario".  I'm going to assume that you work at a CFRC, so jump into CFRIMS - do you see "South Western Ontario" in the org tree?

The question was "Does Toronto fall under South Western Ontario" - the correct answer is "No, it is both the HQ and a detachment of Southern Ontario"

My information stands.


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## winds_13

Buck_HRA, as you stated the restrictions are both local and national. Local restrictions do not fall neatly within the CFRC AORs, but are by health region and city. Some CFRCs span several provinces, so the rsstrictions can vary significantly by Det.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Without getting into specifics any in person interviewing is at a stand still, it is not created by the local CFRC's - it is CFRG policy in conjunction with the Regional/Provincial policies of where that CFRC is located.  Keep in mind that the CAF is a government agency that has to follow the policies being set out by the Region/Province that they are located.
> 
> As an added there isn't "less important" people in the recruitment process; however when CFRC staff are working from home and 50% staffing issues and a priority occupation such as Medical Officer requires an interview vice a Reserve HRA and there's only limited interview capacity, please use some common sense on who would get the interview.
> 
> These are unprecedented times; recruiting staff aren't putting delays on your file for the sake of it - there's actual reason behind it.  Please be patient.



Thanks for your post Buck, your points are well-taken and the information about recruiting staff at 50% and working from home adds more context. Just in reference to the highlighted, I hope none of my posts came across as suggesting I thought the recruiters were doing anything with my file for less than entirely appropriate reasons. 

I'll admit to being a bit frustrated when I have heard about people applying for CIC in other regions who have been able to proceed with their applications and get enrolled, but I certainly recognize that is not the choice or fault of the recruiters I've dealt with at CFRC Hamilton. My file manager and Military Career Counsellor have been responsive and helpful throughout the process ... unfortunately they haven't been given a lot of information either.


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## Gunnar

And today I was sworn in during a regular parade night.  All on camera and masked up & etc., but still, there it was.  Now the official paperwork has to be sent in, stamped and filed, and hopefully everything works out...but this was not the "Hey, I'd like to join" paperwork, but the "How much tax do we deduct" paperwork.  Total length of my own Odyssey, about one year, which was apparently once standard, before COVID.

CO is trying to get everything into RCSU PDQ so that I can do BOTQ ASAP.  And then I can develop an even greater love of TLA's and MLMA's.

So, for the first time since I signed up on Army.ca in 2002, I have updated my profile description as well as my icons.  I am no longer (entirely) a Civilian.  I can't be on a jury.  I'm livin' the dream, serving the Queen.  Whee!


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## dapaterson

Sorry to disappoint you, but restrictions on jury service apply to members of the Reserve Force only when on Active service.

Per the National Defence Act


> Exemption from jury service
> 
> 268 Every officer and non-commissioned member of the reserve force on active service and every officer and non-commissioned member of the regular force and special force is exempt from serving on a jury.


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## Gunnar

I'm an Officer Cadet.  I'm not supposed to know anything.  Just going with what I was told.  Besides, I was only in it for the fishing license anyway....


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## RocketRichard

Gunnar said:
			
		

> And today I was sworn in during a regular parade night.  All on camera and masked up & etc., but still, there it was.  Now the official paperwork has to be sent in, stamped and filed, and hopefully everything works out...but this was not the "Hey, I'd like to join" paperwork, but the "How much tax do we deduct" paperwork.  Total length of my own Odyssey, about one year, which was apparently once standard, before COVID.
> 
> CO is trying to get everything into RCSU PDQ so that I can do BOTQ ASAP.  And then I can develop an even greater love of TLA's and MLMA's.
> 
> So, for the first time since I signed up on Army.ca in 2002, I have updated my profile description as well as my icons.  I am no longer (entirely) a Civilian.  I can't be on a jury.  I'm livin' the dream, serving the Queen.  Whee!


How long is BOTQ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gunnar

I’m not really the guy to ask (yet), but I believe it is (rarely) a week long, and more usually a month of weekends.  There is an on-line component as well.  There is another course as well before you are considered qualified in your rank.


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## LittleBlackDevil

RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> How long is BOTQ?



I've been told there is a 10-day option or 5 weekends option.

Personally if my time ever comes, I'm just going to take a week off work and get the 10 days done. Five weekends sounds like death by a thousand cuts.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Total length of my own Odyssey, about one year, which was apparently once standard, before COVID.



Congrats.

I passed one year last week, I believe. My medical expires in a couple more weeks, and there is no end in sight. So you got very fortunate and were probably at the right RCSU.

Fortunately I am told I can renew my medical for a further one year with a simple phone interview. Then come this time next year, if nothing has changed, I have to redo the whole thing. I sure hope I don't have to do this but I'll confess at this point I am rapidly losing hope/confidence after no progress of any sort on my file since May and CIC applications indefinitely suspended in Southern Ontario. Sounds like I missed the cutoff not by much, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.


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## Gunnar

So, today I received an email from RCSU with Authority for Initial Issue of Kit and Certification for Temporary ID Card.  I have been instructed to consult with my CO on kit and ID procedures in my area, and have immediately passed on the information.  Hopefully, things can move quickly and I can make that happen before the Christmas break, but we shall see.  Pushing as much as we can to see if we can get me into courses at the beginning of 2021.


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## figureeleven

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Just a very brief bit of background -- from 1998 to 2002 I served as an Infantry Officer with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, doing time as the Assistant Adjutant and Finance Officer, then a Platoon Commander. I got out when I was in first year Law School because it was impossible to do both school and army at the same time. Over the years I've often felt the itch to get back in, but never could make it work. Now with my oldest son in cadets I decided to join.



So I have a sort of broadly similar background to this: PRes officer in the mid-1990s, son now in cadets, potentially another decade or so on the clock before mandatory retirement would kick in for the CIC. 

A couple of questions if you have a moment: 

- What are the fitness (as opposed to medical) standards for enrolment in the CIC? My Google-fu is failing me in this area. If there is a standard I probably don't meet it, but it's a helpful start to set a workout goal, if that makes any sense. 

- Do you get to keep your commission, or get it back? I transferred to the SR in 1995 as a Lt, which apparently means that I was released in 2000.


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## Gunnar

Fitness standards are not as stringent as for reg force, because you will likely never be deployed.  You are required to take the FORCE test, but rumour has it that you are not required to pass it.  That being said, personal and unit pride would want you to pass it.  So far, what I have been doing is aiming to meet the cadet bronze standards for an 18 year old.  I figure if you can do that, you're probably good.  But I have yet to be coursed, so I have no idea what will work...


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## figureeleven

Gunnar said:


> Fitness standards are not as stringent as for reg force, because you will likely never be deployed.  You are required to take the FORCE test, but rumour has it that you are not required to pass it.  That being said, personal and unit pride would want you to pass it.  So far, what I have been doing is aiming to meet the cadet bronze standards for an 18 year old.  I figure if you can do that, you're probably good.  But I have yet to be coursed, so I have no idea what will work...


Thanks


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## Burrows

figureeleven said:


> So I have a sort of broadly similar background to this: PRes officer in the mid-1990s, son now in cadets, potentially another decade or so on the clock before mandatory retirement would kick in for the CIC.
> 
> A couple of questions if you have a moment:
> 
> - What are the fitness (as opposed to medical) standards for enrolment in the CIC? My Google-fu is failing me in this area. If there is a standard I probably don't meet it, but it's a helpful start to set a workout goal, if that makes any sense.
> 
> - Do you get to keep your commission, or get it back? I transferred to the SR in 1995 as a Lt, which apparently means that I was released in 2000.



Hey there,

The application process for a CIC applicant is a bit different from the rest of the forces. CIC officers do not currently write the CFAT (Aptitude test) or take the fitness test as part of the recruitment process. Though, you would probably present as a better candidate as one of the cadet program aims is to promote physical fitness.

From memory, non-weekend courses do include the FORCE (fitness) testing component and the requirement is to participate, however your scores are tracked by the CAF (and again, the program promotes physical fitness).

(There is more if you are looking at Class B (full-time contracts), but will keep this to recruiting arcs unless asked to keep the answer clear.

When it comes to your commission, your best bet is to discuss that with the recruiting centre. One technically would not ever be commissioned more than once (and shouldn't receive a second commissioning script), however 25 years is plenty of change to the institution and would be well outside of a PLAR.  (Plus, being an OCdt is a great place to learn and re-learn).  With that said, as a prior CAF member, you will be required to provide your service number as part of your application.


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## LittleBlackDevil

figureeleven said:


> So I have a sort of broadly similar background to this: PRes officer in the mid-1990s, son now in cadets, potentially another decade or so on the clock before mandatory retirement would kick in for the CIC.
> 
> A couple of questions if you have a moment:
> 
> - What are the fitness (as opposed to medical) standards for enrolment in the CIC? My Google-fu is failing me in this area. If there is a standard I probably don't meet it, but it's a helpful start to set a workout goal, if that makes any sense.
> 
> - Do you get to keep your commission, or get it back? I transferred to the SR in 1995 as a Lt, which apparently means that I was released in 2000.



FWIW I've been told that I will keep my commission. I'm not sure whether you necessarily keep your old rank, but I was a 2LT anyway so keeping commission = keeping my rank since you don't go any lower.

As for the fitness, I think others have covered it. With all due respect, some of the CIC officers I've encountered suggests to me that the fitness standards are not rigorously enforced for CIC.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Well, my application continues to be a bit of a "comedy of errors" and just straight bad timing.

I learned today that they are now authorized to do COATS interviews by phone -- which is great since that WAS the one thing holding my application back.

BUT ...

My medical expires tomorrow (1 year) and CFRC Hamilton is not doing medicals now except for a few in-demand RegF trades due to the lockdown so I cannot get it updated. Also, my vulnerable sector record check has expired (I was not told that CAF would only consider it valid for one year until today -- Army Cadet League said I don't need another one for a couple years so thought I was good).

At least the record check is easily remedied and my local police force is really fast with them, so I should be good to go on that score by early next week. My application is pretty much indefinitely on hold due to the medical though. Given the COVID numbers across the country and Ontario specifically I doubt it can happen before the summer.

So it's once more back to waiting.

Most frustrating thing is that people who applied later than I did will be able to be enrolled sooner than I.


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## Burrows

Think of this as an exercise in perseverance.  It took almost 2 years for me to be enrolled in the CAF and most of that was waiting for my first appointment.  Everything moved fairly quickly after that point.

At least at the end of it,  COVID-19 was a curve ball for many organizations.  It doesn't reduce the impact you are having now as a CV if your unit is conducting virtual training.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Yes, absolutely.

Plus looking on the bright side ... it would be better to be enrolled at a time when I can be sworn-in in person, or for the first time to be in uniform with cadets be in-person rather than virtual.

The only real downside right now is lack of access to Logistik and Fortress but it seems not much is happening with Logistik anyway due to COVID and I'm not missing out on much.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Signed my conditional offer of employment last week, after doing a virtual interview in February. SLOWLY inching closer, but unclear what the timeline is on remaining steps.


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## LittleBlackDevil

Slowly inching closer ... on May 6th my completed file was sent from the CFRC to my RCSU. Received confirmation yesterday from the OR Clerk for my area that she received my file and it would be couriered out to my CO as soon as possible (taking into account that due to COVID she's only in the office intermittently). So there would seem to be light at the end of the tunnel.

Still too soon to order my CIC cap badge and pre-emptively sew it onto my beret so it's ready to go when I eventually get my uniform?


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## catalyst

Nope because I'm still waiting for my issued cap badge 14 years later   Congrats! Hopefully the beginning of the end.


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## LittleBlackDevil

catalyst said:


> Nope because I'm still waiting for my issued cap badge 14 years later   Congrats! Hopefully the beginning of the end.



I meant "too soon" from a superstitious perspective ... i.e. would ordering my cap badge from denisringuette.com now, or would that "jinx" things?

I say that tongue-in-cheek a bit, but I can't shake a bit of superstition LOL

I'm also holding off though because I don't know what else I might not be issued and would like to combine shipping on other items if I need to buy, for example, shoulder titles or collar dogs for my DEUs.


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## catalyst

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I meant "too soon" from a superstitious perspective ... i.e. would ordering my cap badge from denisringuette.com now, or would that "jinx" things?
> 
> I say that tongue-in-cheek a bit, but I can't shake a bit of superstition LOL
> 
> I'm also holding off though because I don't know what else I might not be issued and would like to combine shipping on other items if I need to buy, for example, shoulder titles or collar dogs for my DEUs.



 I know.....just making a joke on the lovely ongoing debate about CIC cap badges (which is always fun to watch when it flares up).   I found once CFRC was done with what they needed to do, it went very quickly from there.


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## LittleBlackDevil

catalyst said:


> I know.....just making a joke on the lovely ongoing debate about CIC cap badges (which is always fun to watch when it flares up).



Ah, good to know 

Didn't know that was a sore point. I had to purchase my cap badge when I was an officer with the R Wpg Rif with my personal money, so assumed all officers were expected to do that.



catalyst said:


> I found once CFRC was done with what they needed to do, it went very quickly from there.



I believe that COVID and working from home and such has slowed things down. So far it's been six weeks since my stuff was sent out from CFRC. Talked to my CO today and he has not yet received the paperwork he needs to sign off on.


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## Burrows

It is a long standing tradition that officers purchase their regimental accoutrements.  Comes from the days when an officer would purchase their commission (and if they had buckets of loose change, stand up their own regiment!)

There shouldn't be a debate on something as trivial as your cap badge (especially, IMO, when those who complain are often the first in the receiving line for a promotion round).  However I do agree that perhaps a job aide for new members would be a helpful tool!


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## quadrapiper

Agreed re: the officer expectations side of things.

I think some of the in-Branch grumbling about having to purchase cap badges is the alleged, theoretical, apparently never in stock existence of issue ones: the perception is of having to make up for a supply shortcoming right off the top (sometimes with assurances that "you'll be given one on your first course," only to be directed to the school kit shop). Add to that a lack of subsequent exposure to wider CAF norms both as far as purchasing regimental kit and generally augmenting supplied kit with personal gear and you get a touchstone for griping.

Why we don't issue CIC N/OCdts with the cornflake remains beyond me: I know it's come up on here and elsewhere a few times.


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## LittleBlackDevil

I suppose I should put a bow on this thread, as my "odyssey" has finally been concluded and I've been a CIC officer since early August. Did my attestation at my CO's house first weekend of August, along with all the last paperwork.

I was finally officially an OCdt in Guardian as of 12 October, and picked up my combats on 29 October. Got to wear the uniform for the first time October 29th supervising cadets selling poppies for the legion.

Not entirely sure why I'm an OCdt because according to my MPRR I have Military Occupation Qualifications (by virtue of my courses taken as an infantry officer) for BMOQ CIC Part 1, BMOQ CIC-Land, CIC Land Environmental Course, CIC Basic Officer Trg Course. I've been told I should be 2LT with those courses but I'm just pumped to finally be back in uniform.

Once I have access to FORTRESS I can start looking for further courses. Given I'm Sup O I'd really like to get the Supply Officer course ASAP, plus my CO wants me to get my 404s. Previous CO had said she wanted me to get the winter safety course so we have someone at the corps who can do winter FTX and I think I'm the only one who enjoys cold weather (at our last winter FTX pre-COVID I was the only staff member who slept outside with the cadets).


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## Burrows

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Not entirely sure why I'm an OCdt because according to my MPRR I have Military Occupation Qualifications (by virtue of my courses taken as an infantry officer) for BMOQ CIC Part 1, BMOQ CIC-Land, CIC Land Environmental Course, CIC Basic Officer Trg Course. I've been told I should be 2LT with those courses but I'm just pumped to finally be back in uniform.
> 
> Once I have access to FORTRESS I can start looking for further courses. Given I'm Sup O I'd really like to get the Supply Officer course ASAP, plus my CO wants me to get my 404s. Previous CO had said she wanted me to get the winter safety course so we have someone at the corps who can do winter FTX and I think I'm the only one who enjoys cold weather (at our last winter FTX pre-COVID I was the only staff member who slept outside with the cadets).



Congratulations on closing a long chapter of waiting.  Now you get to begin a whole new adventure of development.

With regards to your being an OCdt vs. a 2Lt, I would engage your Zone Training Officer through your CO and they will likely need to seek direction from the J1/J35 at RCSU.  In most instances, a PLAR (Prior Learning Assessment and Recognition) must be completed on an individual basis and various factors (course content, when the course was completed, etc.) are taken into account.  Your MPRR follows you throughout any service - but the PLAR process needs to be initiated and is not automatic.  (Great opportunity to practice your staff writing skills via a memo - since you are trying to prove you know how to do that ;-) )

With that said, I have often seen members with previous service still need to complete the Occupational Training Course (BMOQ CIC Part 2) as you will need to get your instructor qualification.  The Occupational Training Course also covers youth development, so it would be difficult to PLAR from other CAF occupational courses.  I have seen 2Lts with previous service on this course and it makes up the 2nd part of the requirement for promotion to 2Lt for a CIC Officer with no previous service.

WRT DND 404s - You will need to complete the Safe Driving Course (SDC) on the DLN (Defence Learning Network - eLearning) as a first step.  This will typically qualify you for Staff Car and Light Duty Blue Fleet (Blue Fleet = Civilian vehicles).  The issuing of your 404s can likely be handled with your closest Base Transport cell when you provide your Civilian DL and proof of SDC completion.  _If you are really cool, we will even give you a Golf Cart endorsement after you pass our elite "Golf Cart Operator" course.  Yes - every vehicle in the CAF has an endorsement you need to operate it._

WRT SupO Course - The content itself is available in the DLN Knowledge Base.  You can gain an understanding without completing the course while you wait for the actual course to become available as a syndicate.  Yeah, it does essentially mean studying the same stuff over again - but it will give you the basic understanding out of the gate as you are already occupying this position.

Good luck!


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## LittleBlackDevil

Thanks for the information @Burrows! I already did a PLAR and that is how I received qualifications for the four CIC courses I listed. That makes sense about needing the BMOQ CIC Part 2 to get that stripe removed from my slip-on. There would definitely be things on that course I've not learned previously. Once I get access for Fortress (which I've been harassing my CO about) I'll look into getting one of those.

Will look into DLN. I have not received any credentials for that yet so I'll contact support.

WRT SupO ... honestly after doing the job of SupO for 2 years now I already know a lot of what is probably taught on that course but would good to officially have it and I'm sure I will learn things that I've been doing wrong.


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## Burrows

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Thanks for the information @Burrows! I already did a PLAR and that is how I received qualifications for the four CIC courses I listed. That makes sense about needing the BMOQ CIC Part 2 to get that stripe removed from my slip-on. There would definitely be things on that course I've not learned previously. Once I get access for Fortress (which I've been harassing my CO about) I'll look into getting one of those.
> 
> Will look into DLN. I have not received any credentials for that yet so I'll contact support.
> 
> WRT SupO ... honestly after doing the job of SupO for 2 years now I already know a lot of what is probably taught on that course but would good to officially have it and I'm sure I will learn things that I've been doing wrong.


Your DLN Username will be your Service Number and you should be able to get a password reset once you have your C365/CCONet account set up.

Just for context when requesting things:

FORTRESS = Cadet Records (basically cadet GUARDIAN)
C365 = Cadets365 (Office 365 Account) - Has email, MS Teams, Sharepoint, etc.
CCONet = Remote Desktop/ More Sharepoint/etc.  (Shares credentials with your C365 account as we are migrating away from the remote desktop instances where possible)

It is always a good idea to have an understanding of the job.  person-to-person knowledge transfers alone are a good way to miss steps I have found.


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## d_edwards

Gunnar said:


> I started the application process last winter, and saw little action due to the CAF’s exacting reference requirements.  As I describe it, basically someone who’s known you well for over five years, but still doesn’t like you well enough to be a friend.  Can’t be a friend, relative, family friend or co-worker.  Makes it hard if you’re an introvert working for a small company.  Anyway, finally got the required references, and things were quick after that.  Interview and medical within a week, followed by additional tests because I am old, blind and fat.  (Glucose, lipids, ecg).  For my age, I seem to be relatively ok.  Submitted the additional tests on Friday, will wait to hear what’s next...


I recently retired and was wanting to be a CIC officer.   You touched on something with the  reference requirements. It was a difficult task as people rotate through positions quickly and could not think of anyone at the required rank level that fit the parameters they listed.    Given that and other hurdles I eventually just said to hell with it. 
Units are hurting for help and the system as it is


LittleBlackDevil said:


> I've searched and found a number of threads talking about various peoples' journeys and how long it takes, the process, etc., but nothing CIC related more recent than 2015. So I thought I'd share my own odyssey as an example, to seek advice where appropriate, and to perhaps give some ideas of how to proceed to others interested in CIC. It seemed appropriate to do this in the CIC sub-forum rather than "Recruiting Process" since it seems things are a little different for CIC and not as generally applicable.
> 
> Just a very brief bit of background -- from 1998 to 2002 I served as an Infantry Officer with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, doing time as the Assistant Adjutant and Finance Officer, then a Platoon Commander. I got out when I was in first year Law School because it was impossible to do both school and army at the same time. Over the years I've often felt the itch to get back in, but never could make it work. Now with my oldest son in cadets I decided to join.
> 
> Wanting to help with the corps while waiting to get into CIC, I signed up as a Civilian Volunteer and the CO asked me to act as Supply Officer since they hadn't had one in some time and were in great need.
> 
> Getting in as a CV was easy. I just got a vulnerable sector record check from my local police department and handed it into the Cadet League of Canada folks along with my application and photocopies of ID. It took about 3 weeks to get my approval.
> 
> Applying for CIC has been interesting. The CO at my corps seemed not to know how to apply, perhaps because her own application was so long ago.
> 
> I started looking online at Canada.ca and clicked the "APPLY NOW!" button here: Cadet Instructor - Canada.ca
> 
> Which is apparently the wrong way to apply, because after I filled out the application I called the local CFRC to see what the next step was. For about two weeks I was told to call back in a few days because no one really seemed to know what to do. The fourth recruiter I spoke to finally told me I was supposed to do my application through RCSU and put me in touch with the right person who gave me the application package. I filled this out and sent it in and on December 17th, 2019 it was sent back to my CFRC.
> 
> I touched base with the local CFRC just before Christmas 2019 and was told they would contact me once they had the package to do the physical. When I hadn't heard anything by January 9th, 2020 I decided to give them a ring to see what's what. The recruiter in charge of my file set me up right away with a Medical for January 16th.
> 
> Today at 6:23 pm I received a barrage of four emails all stating the same:
> 
> Your appointment(Medical - Part I & II) has been deleted!
> Your appointment on 2020-Jan-16 at 10:00:00 has been cancelled (deleted). If you have any questions please contact your recruiting detachment.
> Thank you again for your interest in joining the Canadian Armed Forces.
> 
> So now I'm waiting until 8 am or so tomorrow so I can call my recruiter back and see what this is all about and hopefully get another Medical in short order. Although considering I had to book a whole day off for this given how far away my "local" CFRC is, it may be a few weeks. I am starting to see that this may be death by a thousand cuts of a few weeks wasted here (the canada.ca site giving wrong application info) and a few weeks wasted there (Medical being randomly unilaterally cancelled by CFRC).
> 
> I wonder how many applicants they lose due to the process? They won't get rid of me easily though because I really want to do this, and my experience as a CV has only given me more determination because I enjoy it and I can also see the great need for CIC officer (I'm told that CIC is at about 50% of what it should be across the board and my corps is especially understaffed ... by the fall there may actually be zero uniform CIC officers (because the two we have are just "pinch hitting" as it is), although I assume they'll parachute _someone_ in from a neighbouring unit.


I recently retired from the the CF after a career that spanned 30 years.   I thought I would apply as a CIC officer.  I was not expecting the administrative headaches which also had to compete with my personal administration related to retirement (relocation etc).  I eventually decided to not bother at all. Part of it was frustration at the process.  Part of it was personal, having spent my entire life since age 13 (now 55) in uniform ( cadets, reserve, regular force) I needed time away from all of it.   Maybe I will circle back to it but as a CI.


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## Burrows

The definition of co-worker does not include your supervisors (current or former).  It would be more than fair to use those people as individual references.  Community leaders are also valid references (your clergy, someone you have volunteered for, etc.).  Understandably, some folks could still experience difficulty with this. 

There are mechanisms that exist to assist members of PRes and RegF in doing a CT to COATS (and also OT to CIC) should they be interested instead of releasing.  I have been advised that when this process is followed prior to a member releasing, that a PLAR is now standard practice. 

Based on what you have stated above, it sounds like you were released and seeking re-enrolment, is that correct?


----------

