# Critics say DND asks too much of shipbuilders



## FormerHorseGuard (27 Oct 2005)

National Post Story  today
I cannot post the whole story but some of you might want to check it out.
talks about the new ship building plans for the navy, coast guard and how Canadian Ship Builders might not be up to making over 30 new ships in the next 20 years.

"The Canadian navy and Coast Guard are laying plans for a shipbuilding spree the likes of which our shipyards have not seen since the Second World War -- nearly 30 warships and patrol boats are required over the next two decades, including potentially some of the largest ships ever built in Canada."


talks about cost over runs, lack designers and other problems that Canadian Ship builders would face building a new fleet.
those of you who read the Post might want to check it out.


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## armyvern (27 Oct 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> National Post Story   today
> I cannot post the whole story but some of you might want to check it out.
> 
> those of you who read the Post might want to check it out.



OK, so here's the link to the story:

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/051026/npt/051026aq.htm


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## mjohnston39 (27 Oct 2005)

The article fails to mention that FLEX will be occuring during the same time frame as well as the need for the coast guard to start replacing it's large ice breakers...

Mike.


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## joseph_almeida (29 Oct 2005)

Thanks for the link. Looks like our navy's got a lil work ahead!


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## muskrat89 (29 Oct 2005)

From the referenced article:



> Ottawa needs to come up with a better plan for the industry than the current feast-or-famine approach.
> 
> "We've been contending for some time that there needs to be some logic in the way they do these big procurements," he said. "They dump a whole pile of work on us all at once, then nothing for 25 years."
> 
> ...



 :crybaby:

That's manufacturing  :   and most industries experience this, to some degree or another. I've been in manufacturing, in 3 different sectors, for the past 20 years almost. It has all been cyclical.  They'd be crying if we built them elsewhere, too. Build what they can here, and outsource the rest to shipbuilders of our allies. Maybe I'm over-simplifying...


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## Cloud Cover (29 Oct 2005)

Actually, I'd rather a high spec sheet for contracts to be given the lowest cost, *qualified*, compliant bidder with built in penalites for missing deadlines and performance requirements. This would mean that some, but not all, of the ships would be built in Canada. And, we should spend the extra money and buy warranties on engines and equipment that can actually be enforced. 

On the advice of his pacifist advisors, Jean Chretien killed the naval shipbuilding industry with a view to permanently eradicating the capability - except for the ship yard in Quebec. He very nearly succeeded.  There is no point in trying to rehabilitate the shipbuilding industry beyond what is economically feasible.  The ship yard in Quebec falls into the category of what is not economically feasible, IMO- for the simple reason that it is nothing but a vote buying cash cow.


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## Kirkhill (29 Oct 2005)

> That's manufacturing     and most industries experience this, to some degree or another. I've been in manufacturing, in 3 different sectors, for the past 20 years almost. It has all been cyclical.



I'm with muskrat.  I've seen the feast and the famine of manufacturing.  The more zeroes after the dollar sign the longer the famines.


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## muskrat89 (30 Oct 2005)

Currently, I work at a metal stamping factory. Last year at this time, we were teetering on the abyss, due mostly to the steel prices. Now we're swamped, even working Saturdays and Sundays, can't find enough trained operators, and are even farming extra jobs out to other companies...


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## geo (30 Oct 2005)

well one of the getlemen quoted in the article is a former Admiral
if he is now working for the shipyards, he should be talking to his buddies about stretching out the order over xx years instead of conjuring up fleets that must be delivered all at one time.

but let's face it, it took a long time for the Gov't and the CF to get their act together and think about what is good for the forces.... let's hope the good fortune continues beyond the current CDS


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## daniel h. (30 Oct 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> well one of the getlemen quoted in the article is a former Admiral
> if he is now working for the shipyards, he should be talking to his buddies about stretching out the order over xx years instead of conjuring up fleets that must be delivered all at one time.
> 
> but let's face it, it took a long time for the Gov't and the CF to get their act together and think about what is good for the forces.... let's hope the good fortune continues beyond the current CDS




Not that they're planning a huge expansion, mostly just replacement, but at least they woke up to the fact that Canada is ultimately responsible for its own defence....or maybe I'm exaggerating.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Nov 2005)

daniel h. said:
			
		

> Not that they're planning a huge expansion, mostly just replacement, but at least they woke up to the fact that Canada is ultimately responsible for its own defence....or maybe I'm exaggerating.



You do know that there is a major project in the works to replace the Halifax and Iroquois classes so_ replacement_ is in the works as well.


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## daniel h. (7 Nov 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> You do know that there is a major project in the works to replace the Halifax and Iroquois classes so_ replacement_ is in the works as well.




Yeah I heard about that. I just meant that they are replacements, so technically not an increase in the size of the navy unless the old frigates are kept aroung...They won't be stealth frigates this time arounf will they?


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## Silent (10 Dec 2005)

Well i know it's probably not my place to day this, being an air cadet and all. But i've talked to many of my friends in the navy stationed in Halifax and from the stories they've told me, our navy really needs this upgrade


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## Navy_Blue (12 Dec 2005)

The way it looks now the shipbuilders are going to be "swamped" for close to 30 years if they play there cards right.  

6+ ORCA YAG's project is started

3+ ships for the JSS - 2012 and beyond

11 maybe 12 FELEX upgrades for the CPF - into 2020 (not to mention hanger upgrades for the CH-148)

???# SCC for replacement of the CPF (Long way off!!)

???# Aux vessels

???# Coast Guard boats.  If I am right they have 8 on order/in production now??

If things go as planned there will be warrenty work and sevice contracts too.  Warrenty may not be good for the yards but its good for the employees and trades people.

This is a potential gold mine for our ship builders if they plan there side of things.  Its enough work to draw expertise and people.  Spread over 30 years it give them time to use there new found brain/man power to get big jobs in civi land.  They should be jumping for joy not looking for a hand out like they will.

As far as I'm concerned the CND ship builders don't deserve the contracts for these ships.  We spend millions on refitting the our ships now and every time its like taking your car to a shady mechanic.  They come out worse off then when they went in.  The Navy ends up paying allot more than what there contract was originally for.

IRVING knew these ships were in the not to distant future but they still blew up the ship yard in Saint John.  They know if they get the contract the Government will pay for new one else where.

They government should have more power when its contracting.  They should expect quality and get it every time.  No civi out fit would put up with what DND does.

Thats just my 2 cents


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Dec 2005)

> 11 maybe 12 FELEX upgrades for the CPF - into 2020 (not to mention hanger upgrades for the CH-148)



Last debrief we had at the CFMWC in Sept said all 12 were going ahead.



> SCC for replacement of the CPF (Long way off!!)


CPF and 280 with the initial first batch being dedicated to AAW. Prob around the 2010-2012 time frame (same debrief)


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## Navy_Blue (12 Dec 2005)

SCC wont happen before 2017 maybe even 2020 we have too much on our plate as it is.  All they know for the SCC is they want one hull with the ability to fit as many missions as possible (C&C, ASW, Air Defence, ect).  Now this is just what was passed on to us at our MOSART Brief last week.  None of these changes are going to be quick for what ever reason we plan our projects to death.

Ex-Dragoon you must realize by now that they always put out the optimistic dates on things.  Then we have another crisis/election/bad year, and old plans get put back in the file cabnet.  Like the zoomies air lift replacements they've been talking that stuff for ten years.  Just talking and in DND talk can be very expensive.  

When they bought the CF-18 they didn't plan to fly them into 2017.  We spent money on the JSF do you really think Canada is even going to buy them.  The JSS was started years ago to replace the AOR and they shut the program down and then started it again last year.  Its the way our system works unfortunately for us.  Lucky for us I think our Soldiers Sailors and Airman have an uncanny ability to adapt and overcome.  We make things work.

I think I've said it before, our CDS right now is one of the best I've seen he has big plans with will and drive to get them done.  Our problem is bureaucrats and politicians which can and do have a slowing effect on our programs.  Too some point even the industry can have an ability to slow our progress.

All we can do is hurry up and wait.


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Dec 2005)

No need to tell me how the CF operates, I've been in the uniform since '86 in one capacity or another. I have seen programs come and go, some on time others not.


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## geo (13 Dec 2005)

( also overbudget )


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## STONEY (31 Dec 2005)

At the rate the Canadian Government actually gives out shipbuilding contracts rather than talking about them, i think our shipbuilders are more worried about closing for lack of work than being swamped by too much work. Remember it wasn't all that long ago that just 2 yards were building/rebuilding 16 ships for the navy and container vessels & tankers for the civil market at the same time with no problem. One of them has since closed for lack of orders laying off thousands. The Orca  class contract, the only one actually awarded is small by industry standards and barely a blip in shipyard capicity.


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## Navy_Blue (2 Jan 2006)

Why are the ship builders waiting for government hand outs??  Which is what a DND contract is.  If your in a business and you market or costumer base changes you adapt or go under.   Why are they not building new double hulled tankers & bigger container ships like Asia is and why are they not trying to grab other countries contracts.  Its because they're just a little expensive labour wise I think.  When a trades person in Poland gets SFA and our trades people pull in 30$+ per hour.  How do you grab big contracts competing against that.  

Irving closed the yard in Saint John knowing full well there were contracts in the works.  He knows how the gov works and he will get a nice shinny new ship yard if he gets a JSS contract or SCSC.  He will make a fortune on the land that the yard was on building condos too. Mill Davey same way there in Bankruptcy protection and there in on the bid for JSS.

Our ship builders are digging they own holes and our government helps them out every time.  Maybe we should go back to having crown owned yards and build what we need when we need it.  Then keep a minimum labour force on to handle the refits.  It would be cheaper even with all the union rules and bureaucratic run around.

Most of the ship yards in the states are fueled by there Navy and if they stopped building war ships they would go under too.

Makes me crazy  :dontpanic: thinking about how they rip us off and then they cry because they're going to get too much work now.

give me a break


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## STONEY (4 Jan 2006)

NAVY BLUE SHAKE YOUR HEAD.  If  what you say is true then we would have to close all steel plants in the western world because they make steel cheaper in Asia. We would have to close all car plants in the west because Korea can build them cheaper. We would have to get rid of farmers because its cheaper to farm in Africa. The list goes on & on and your not facing reality. The only reason the auto industry exists in North America is because gov. regs. require all company's selling here have to make a certain % here. Everyone knows that Canadian shipyards cannot compete, and the Canadian Gov. has made a decision not to support them, but most of the rest of the world does subsidize its national shipyards including those countrys in Asia. Read the history of Hyundai & you'll see that without Gov. financing & a massive national effort it wouldn't be the largest shipbuilding co. in the world .  Take a look at any of the worlds large military contracts and you'll see that the company's that won had to give 100-150% offset to land them. ie if a German shipyard wins a 1 billion contract to build frigates & subs for South Africa they have to promise to spend 1.5 billion in that country but they consider it necessary to keep their industry alive. This is the way the world turns like it or not.


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## Navy_Blue (4 Jan 2006)

Why does our ship build industry deserve a cent from our government.  They get $$$$$ every year to fix and refit our ships and they rob us blind and do half the work they were contracted to do.  They all know what a CPF is and they all know what kind of condition they are in before the are turned over for a refit.  Some how they always go over budget and over time (which makes me think the contracts are under bid to begin with knowing the gov will pay either way).  Hyundai is probably a much bigger cash cow and tax payer than our ship yards have ever been.  With its history its probably a much more patriotic company.  Our ship building industry does everything in its power to funnel tax money offshore and rob the government blind.  If a private company hired our ship yards to refit or repair its ships the treatment & quality of work would be night and day from what DND receives.

I'm sure if Germany is building ships with contracts like that they are also written in to have refits and supply parts training ect.  That would more than make up for spending cash in foreign countries.  Its not like they do it at a loss.   The Germans have good long term plans for ship building which in part comes from planning by its department of defence.   That kind of planning allows for a sustainable industry and allows them to go after other work while maintaining there work force.

The point of this thread is that they are expecting too much work from our government.  The amount of ships being discused is not going to be expected to be completed over night.  We're talking 20+ years here.  In that time they will surely have more orders to replace what is in the water now.  They are starting to make plans and I think they will try and keep them.   Its time for our industry to see this stop crying, step up and take the work or let some one else do it.


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