# Constructing the CCG Hero class [Merged]



## jollyjacktar

Someone needs to be held accountable with this...(the words escape me).  Debacle?  Shared under the fair dealings provisions of the copyright act.



> Union alleges coast guard vessels are unsafe
> 
> ANDREA GUNN OTTAWA BUREAU
> Published December 13, 2015 - 7:40pm
> 
> Ships were accepted despite pre-construction concerns
> 
> 
> Canada’s $200-million fleet of new coast guard mid-shore patrol vessels were accepted and put to use despite a series of serious safety concerns first identified before their construction, some of which are still outstanding.
> 
> According to two current and one former Union of Canadian Transportation Employees officials, concerns that the fleet of nine Hero-class, 43-metre patrol vessels were not sufficiently up to safety standards were initially raised by the project team before they were built, but the problems were not mitigated during their design and construction.
> 
> The union’s Atlantic region occupational health and safety branch subsequently brought the issues to Canadian Coast Guard management nearly two years ago.
> 
> 
> Wayne Fagan, regional vice-president of the union’s Atlantic branch, said he doesn’t understand why the coast guard accepted ships that, according to the on-site project team, were not safe to use, only to have to spend more to correct the issues after the fact.
> 
> “(These ships) are built to standards that are less than the standards they have in Third World countries right now,” Fagan said.
> 
> The vessels were constructed as part of a contract awarded to Irving Shipbuilding in 2009, with the function of supporting Fisheries and Oceans Canada’s compliance and enforcement program on Canada’s coastline. They were delivered from 2012 to 2014. Two vessels — the CCGS G. Peddle and the CCGS Corporal McLaren M.M.V. — are based in Halifax.
> 
> Documents obtained by The Chronicle Herald show an assurance of voluntary compliance was signed by coast guard management in February agreeing to investigate and mitigate 11 items by the end of March. Five issues have yet to be fixed, and although some of the complaints have been closed, there is still concern among union officials that some of those safety issues have not been sufficiently addressed.
> 
> The concerns include problems with what’s called bulkhead penetration, which means water can flow from compartment to compartment, putting the ship at higher risk of sinking, as well as rolling stabilization, and the ability to lower lifeboats with the crew aboard.
> 
> There is also a major structural fire protection issue. If there is a blaze aboard one of the vessels, the 14-person crew has a total of two minutes to vacate the ship before the deckhouse — which contains all the vessel’s communication capabilities — begins to collapse. This issue cannot be fixed, Fagan said, only mitigated through procedural precautions.
> 
> “If there’s a fire, we’re going to have issues,” he said.
> 
> John Dalziel is the former Halifax union president and was one of the members of the project team that first identified the safety concerns. He is a naval architect by trade, and has nearly 50 years in the industry.
> 
> The Hero-class ships are the Canadianized version of the Dutch-designed Damen Stan 4200 patrol vessel, a ship used in countries around the world. Dalziel said according to documents he has seen, vessels of this type operated by other countries have structural fire protection that is much higher than Canada’s fleet, giving the crews ample time to vacate.
> 
> He said after his on-site project team submitted their list of concerns about the safety of the vessels to coast guard management before their completion, he was told verbally and in writing to not report any of the concerns to the fleet — the people who would actually be operating the ships.
> 
> “I’ve been in this industry for half a century,” Dalziel said. “… I’ve never been involved in a project that has been managed quite this way. I had never been instructed before (then) not to report a safety concern.”
> 
> He said he would like to see a policy in place that would require safety concerns to be addressed as soon as possible after they are identified.
> 
> Wade Stagg, acting regional director of fleet in the Atlantic region, said the coast guard had no concerns with accepting the ships, despite the issues outlined by the project team, because the Hero-class vessels were designed and constructed under the guidance of Lloyd’s Register, an international inspection company, and met Transport Canada safety requirements.
> 
> Although the coast guard signed off on an assurance of voluntary compliance to mitigate the safety issues, it does not mean the ships are unsafe to use in the interim, Stagg said.
> 
> “That goes on with ships all the time. They’re deemed safe, but as time goes on, you do things that make them safer.”
> 
> He was not able to provide a timeline for the completion of the work or an estimated price tag, but he said some of the outstanding concerns will be addressed in an upcoming scheduled refit in February.
> 
> “We’re working with the union, we’re working with the vessels, we’re working with Transport Canada and Lloyd’s. We have a fix, and we have a way forward on each one of those items.”
> 
> Christine Collins, the union’s national president, said although the process has been unbearably slow, she is satisfied that the employer has acknowledged and is attempting to address the issues. Collins said union officials want to continue to work with the coast guard to resolve the issues voluntarily, but failing sufficient mitigation, they will be forced to issue an order to the employer.
> 
> Other than the safety issues outlined by the union, there have been other problems with the vessels. The Chronicle Herald reported in November that the CCGS G. Peddle has been laid up since September awaiting repairs to its lifeboat davit braking system. In June, the McLaren experienced a loss of propulsion that led to a disabling injury of an employee; that instance has since been investigated and the problem corrected.
> 
> Fagan said the number of problems with the Hero-class fleet has made them a joke among the crew, but the questions that still exist surrounding their safety is no laughing matter.
> 
> “We keep asking, are theses vessels safe? And the answer comes back, ‘They’re according to class.’
> 
> “In other words, the insurer has basically signed them off and that they’re according to class, but that doesn’t answer the question of if they’re safe.”
> 
> http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1327375-union-alleges-coast-guard-vessels-are-unsafe


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Mmmmmmm!!! Built by Irving Shipyard and certified in class by Lloyds International.

The AOPS are to be built by Irving Shipyard and certified in class by Lloyds International. Just saying.

BTW, Damen Shipyards usually certifies its classes through Bureau Veritas. Again, just saying.

Well, I am out to decorate the tree ...  :gottree:


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## Colin Parkinson

talking to a guy who has been on them, bulkhead doors that can't be swung fully open and some other faults. It really does not surprise me. Coast Guard management is a walking debacle, the 500 class was the same sort of issues, base closures. There was the move of the 1100 class ships from BC to back east to be replaced by 3 ships, one that was so bad, it never went into service, the other 2 needing significant refits to make them usable. Not to mention that time came to move those vessels, they found out their much vaunted CCG college marine certificate had no international standing and they have to go out and find someone with the right ticket to Captain their ships through the Panama canal. Even a Commissioner of the Coast Guard caught flashing people in public, moved from the east coast to the west coast rather than being let go. I saw so much stuff in the 90's and early 2000's it's clear a house cleaning is in order.


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## chrisf

If the bulkhead penetration issue is related to the cable penetrations, it was known about by the coast guard long before the ships were completed let alone delivered and accepted.

Expect that the 1100 class vessel life extension will be a mess as well, and that hasn't even started yet.


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## STONEY

Canada over the years has bought many pieces of kit and instead of letting well enough alone decided to Canadianize them (read screw 
them up ) so this is no surprise.  OGBD note that many of the CG screw ups were built on the west coast so its not always the shipyard
that is the problem but political interference .

Cheers


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## Colin Parkinson

More like management interferance


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## MarkOttawa

Note further links at post based on CP story:



> Our politicians and media largely ignore–unlike their constant focus on military procurements–our mostly silent (civilian) service, to its great detriment. Now the awful facts described in a major government report tabled in February are reported...
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

_Toronto Star_ weighs in:

Rescue Canada’s floundering coast guard: Editorial
The Canadian Coast Guard is in dire straits due to aging ships and understaffing. It's vital that the federal government respond.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2016/04/08/rescue-canadas-floundering-coast-guard-editorial.html

Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson

Lack of funding, a senior management that is more less dysfunctional, a bias against anyone not from the college and coming up the hawsepipe in regards to supporting their career advancement. The management is slowly slitting their own throats in regards to doing little out of their mandate. When you try to get a tasking they make it very difficult, once they even wanted to bill us the entire cost of the ship, when we offered to cover any excess cost like OT and fuel. It was cheaper to hire a charter crew boat. It's not the crews, they love to get out and do new things and go new places. Most of the initiatives you see like diving, swimmer, rescue specialist were driven by the crew members and not the management or senior officers. CCG has some great talent and dedicated crews despite the organization, not because of it.


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## my72jeep

Wow sounds like every other Canadian Gov. agency.


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## MarkOttawa

38 year-old icebreaker CCGS Pierre Radisson to be modernized--note final para on what is done in the winter:



> ABB Breathes New Life into Canadian Icebreaker
> 
> ABB modernization to extend service of 38-year-old Canadian Coast Guard Icebreaker; upgrade includes improved connectivity and eight new drives
> 
> ABB will modernize a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker, installing the latest hardware and software onboard the 38 year old Pierre Radisson. As part of the complete upgrade to the ship’s power distribution system, eight new drives will also be installed. The contract includes the option to modernize the other two Coast Guard ships, Des Groseilliers and Amundsen, both of which have clocked up more than 30 years of service…
> 
> Design and supply work is scheduled to begin immediately and installation and commissioning is expected to be finished by June 2017. In winter, the Pierre Radisson breaks ice and escorts ships in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and on the St. Lawrence and Saguenay Rivers. In summer, the ship travels to the Canadian Arctic to escort commercial ships, serve as a primary search and rescue unit and provide support to scientific missions when possible…”
> http://www.marinelink.com/news/icebreaker-breathes408440.aspx



Keep ’em going to the half century or something as only that one new one is planned.

Work likely to be done at Davie, Quebec:
http://www.45enord.ca/2015/07/un-contrat-de-16-millions-a-la-davie-pour-moderniser-le-navire-de-la-garde-cotiere-henry-larsen/

Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

Davie proposal may still be alive:



> Davie Québec Wants to Build Icebreaker for, Unload Other Vessels on, Canadian Coast Guard, Part 2
> 
> Further to this post with lots of detail on the pitch and in which I wrote…
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/mark-collins-davie-quebec-wants-to-build-icebreaker-for-unload-other-vessels-on-canadian-coast-guard/
> 
> "…
> The CCG could certainly use a new polar icebreaker before 2022 and the other vessels Davie has been put forward could well be welcome (see the 2013 situation here: “The Poor Canadian Coast Guard, or, Read Our Lips…)…"
> 
> it now looks as if the Davie idea may not be dead...
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/27/mark-collins-davie-quebec-wants-to-build-icebreaker-for-unload-other-vessels-on-canadian-coast-guard-part-2/



Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson

What's old is new again


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## jmt18325

I'd be all for leasing icebreakers.  There's no way we can buy enough in time given the timeline.


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## CBH99

http://m.thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1386349-crew-shortage-ties-up-coast-guard

*I haven't posted a link to a story before, sorry if I didn't do it correctly.


Doesn't seem to be a super urgent matter.  It really does illuminate the contrast between the Canadian Coast Guard and the US Coast Guard in terms of structure, staffing, etc. though.


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## Colin Parkinson

Not surprising, we are paying poor wages compared to industry, but then we don't have the ups and downs. If the downturn carries on, this will be self correcting as we won't have to compete for ticketed personal. If even one of the LNG projects on the West Coast goes into production, there will be a severe shortage for the first 10 years. The pilots hire mostly from the Tugs and with 4 docking tugs and possibly 2-3 escort tugs per tanker with 250-360 ships a year, that's a lot of people to maintain that flow.


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## dapaterson

In the "Gee, who'd have thought" department, CCG is having trouble finding crews willing to work overtime, since the new pay system has problems with paying them.  Imagine, crews at sea don't have access to the Government of Canada computer network to input their hours for approval by their boss.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-overtime-issues-linked-to-phoenix-1.3718353


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## Kirkhill

I sense the nefarious hand of the evil Harper.   >

Downsizing the bureaucracy on the Liberal's watch by implementing a change the Civil Service asked for.  Genius.


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## chrisf

They should really start putting "we don't drug test" on their job ads.


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## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:
			
		

> In the "Gee, who'd have thought" department, CCG is having trouble finding crews willing to work overtime, since the new pay system has problems with paying them.  Imagine, crews at sea don't have access to the Government of Canada computer network to input their hours for approval by their boss.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-overtime-issues-linked-to-phoenix-1.3718353



The assumption of the software types is everyone has an account and network access.


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## Colin Parkinson

a nice article on the 1100 class

http://www.nsnews.com/news/a-ship-for-all-seasons-1.15295925 

http://images.glaciermedia.ca/polopoly_fs/1.15298898.1492126537!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/laurier-bow.jpg


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## Blair Gilmore

Although the Liberal government is promising to finally boost the CCG with some decades in coming spending, they're still making mistakes by cutting programs such as the Dive Team in Richmond, BC. It's the only team of its type in all of Canada and it fills a rescue niche for the Lower Mainland that can't be filled by other services like SAR Techs or civilians. I've added my voice to the growing backlash against the decision, you can read my article here:

http://www.happydiver.space/?p=434


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## Colin Parkinson

I was there at the start of the dive team and I know what it cost the rescue personal to have to sit there and listen to the trapped survivors in the hulls and not being able to respond from before the team started. Starting the dive team was an uphill battle until the Minister became frustrated with the games of management and ordered it to be fully funded. CCG managed to kill the Rescue swimmer program and tried to kill the Rescue Specialist program as well. All 3 programs were started at the grassroots level in Kits base and the Hovercraft by very dedicated individuals who saw the need and envisioned a solution. Meanwhile CCG management was trying to close both Kits and the Hovercraft base because they hated being responsible for inshore SAR and it was a budgetary threat to the big ships. I am not surprised by this move at all.

DFO is also shutting down fish habitat restoration projects and reassigning the personal to other things. 

All hail the new regime "Ocean Protection Program" dissent is not tolerated and obedience is required"


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## MarkOttawa

Show me some real CCG money--hah!  First a tweet:



> Timothy Choi‏ @TimmyC62
> ...
> Most of them are already 30 years old, being built in the '80s...
> https://twitter.com/TimmyC62/status/872939773777674240



Now sailing on forever almost (further links at original):



> Canadian Coast Guard Fleet Modernization Underway
> 
> ABB said it will modernize 10 out of 14 Medium Icebreakers and High Endurance Multi Task Canadian Coast Guard ships to extend operational life of the vessels by another 20 years.
> 
> “For more than 75 years ABB has been working at the cutting edge of icebreaker technology and we are delighted to bring this expertise to these Canadian Coast Guard ships,” said Jyri Jusslin, Senior Vice President of ABB Global Marine & Ports Service. “We have a long successful track record of working with both AC and DC systems and we are delighted the Canadian Coast Guard recognizes ABB as a reliable partner.”
> 
> Design and work supply on first of the 10 vessels, CCGS Pierre Radisson, is already underway and will be completed in July 2017. From then on the remaining nine vessels will be completed in following order: CCGS Ann Harvey (2018), CCGS Des Groseilliers (2018), CCGS Sir William Alexander (2018), CCGS Martha L. Black (2018), CCGS Henry Larsen (2019), CCGS Edward Cornwallis (2019), CCGS Sir Wilfrid Laurier (2020), CCGS George R. Pearkes (2020), CCGS Amundsen (2020).
> 
> Medium Icebreakers and High Endurance Multi Task Vessels typically work year round, performing search and rescue, maritime navigational aids, ice breaking, oceanographic studies, patrol and protection of Canada coastline. In winter, the vessels are assigned to icebreaking and ship escort operations at Canadian waters, St. Lawrence Seaway and Great Lakes. Every summer CCGS Amundsen is charted by a scientific consortium and makes her way to the Canadian Arctic to conduct a wide variety of scientific missions. While in the Arctic, the vessels also serve as a primary search and rescue unit and provides support to scientific missions when possible...
> https://www.marinelink.com/news/modernization-canadian426174



Mark
Ottawa


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## jmt18325

For the work they do, they don't really need cutting edge technology.  They do need reliability.  Hopefully in another decade that won't be such a problem for them.


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## MarkOttawa

List of CCG vessels--note age of larger ones;
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Search?todo=all#results

Mark
Ottawa


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## jmt18325

No question, they're old.  If we can get 20 more years out of some of them, I think that's great.  It gives us time to replace the ones that we can't get 20 years out of.


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## chrisf

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> For the work they do, they don't really need cutting edge technology.  They do need reliability.  Hopefully in another decade that won't be such a problem for them.



What makes you think those things are mutually exclusive?

Cutting edge technology in modern shipping is reliability.

The whole industry is very focused on reducing downtime and reducing maintenance costs.

Modern technologies and systems reduce crewing costs and simplify operations.

Unfortunately, the coast guard as an organization does not have the knowledge or skill base to operate and maintain a modern ship at the moment, there would be a very steep and sudden learning curve for any crew assigned to a modern boat.

It's already been an issue with some of their new smaller boats.


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## Navy_Pete

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> What makes you think those things are mutually exclusive?
> 
> Cutting edge technology in modern shipping is reliability.
> 
> The whole industry is very focused on reducing downtime and reducing maintenance costs.
> 
> Modern technologies and systems reduce crewing costs and simplify operations.
> 
> Unfortunately, the coast guard as an organization does not have the knowledge or skill base to operate and maintain a modern ship at the moment, there would be a very steep and sudden learning curve for any crew assigned to a modern boat.
> 
> It's already been an issue with some of their new smaller boats.



One example is the onboard equipment health monitoring packages (EHM) that phone home with data packets to the OEM daily.  They have teams of experts monitoring for trends etc and all the operational data lets them build extensive databases to help predict problems before they come up.  They can do the same with vibration analysis and other good tools.

So you'll get emails like 'check cylinder A4 on your DG as it's been starting to run hotter at low loads' and pick up potential issues that are starting to drift within the normal range before it gets to a problem.  This is harder to do looking at logs with a once an hour snapshot, and you tend to not catch things until they are outside of normal.


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## MarkOttawa

New CCG icebreaker to be Norwegian design, haven't seen the gov't mention that (by same company, owned by Fincantieri, that did RCN A/OPS):



> Vard Marine has decades of experience with the design of icebreakers and ice-capable ships for operations in the Arctic, Antarctic, and many sub-polar areas of the world. Our extensive database includes full and model scale performance information on our own designs, vessels built by the Vard Group, and many other icebreakers. We conduct in-house and contract research into key aspects of these ship types, including hull form, propulsion plant configurations, structural design, and winterization. Vard Marine has provided assistance to the development of the new IMO Polar Code, and continues to provide guidance to owners, operators and other stakeholders on how to implement regulatory requirements...
> 
> he VARD 9 206 is a Polar Icebreaker designed to be the flagship vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard, with a multi-mission capability. The ship can break up to 2.5m of level ice, and has excellent manoeuvrability in even heavy ice conditions. Ship systems are designed to provide very high levels of operational availability by design and through equipment selection. The mission systems are configured to allow for operations in extreme weather conditions while minimizing crew and mission personnel exposure. Vard Marine worked with the designated shipyard for this project to include numerous design for production features.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The VARD 7 100i was developed as the basis for the Royal Canadian Navy’s new fleet of Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships. This design balances icegoing and open-water performance requirements to fulfill the Navy’s missions around the world’s longest coastline...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://vardmarine.com/vessel-design-portfolio/specialized-vessels/ice-breakers/



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

Seaspan nicely buries Vard Marine design of new icebreaker in caption at image here--"* Reproduced by permission of Canadian Coast Guard and VARD Marine":
https://www.seaspan.com/building






Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

Imagine how much money would be saved, and how much sooner delivery, if we just bought new CCG icebreaker direct from VARD Marine!  But those jobs! jobs! jobs! Fie on both Conservatives and Liberals.

Mark
Ottawa


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## George Wallace

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Seaspan nicely buries Vard Marine design of new icebreaker in caption at image here--"* Reproduced by permission of Canadian Coast Guard and VARD Marine":
> https://www.seaspan.com/building
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



I doubt the Trudeau Liberals will permit a CCGS to be named after a Conservative PM.   [


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## Oldgateboatdriver

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Imagine how much money would be saved, and how much sooner delivery, if we just bought new CCG icebreaker direct from VARD Marine!  But those jobs! jobs! jobs! Fie on both Conservatives and Liberals.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Actually, Mark: Not possible.

First of all, VARD Marine is an engineering and naval architecture company. They design the ships and develop the detailed building plans, but they don't have a shipyard and don't build anything themselves.

Second, VARD marine has developed very few design themselves. About 75% of their portfolio is basically the plans and designs of STX Marine Canada, of Vancouver, that they acquired when they bought them and Kraevner out. The actual ice breaker designs and the patrol vessels (from the Kiwi 85 m. OPV of project protector, to the Roislin and Beckett of the Irish naval Service, for instance, are all Canadian designs of STX).

As for the Norwegian yards that built some of those ships, they actually got most of the hulls and superstructure built in Polish shipyard to save money. Norway yards only did the fitting out and finishing work.


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## MarkOttawa

Oldgateboatdriver:



> ...
> As for the Norwegian yards that built some of those ships, they actually got most of the hulls and superstructure built in Polish shipyard to save money. Norway yards only did the fitting out and finishing work.



So if we just contracted VARD Marine to deliver the ship, most metal-bashing done in Romania (not Poland https://vardmarine.com/about-vard-marine/corporate-information/ ), surely cheaper and faster than Seaspan?

Mark
Ottawa


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## chrisf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> First of all, VARD Marine is an engineering and naval architecture company. They design the ships and develop the detailed building plans, but they don't have a shipyard and don't build anything themselves.



To be clear, you're referring to Vards operations in Canada?

As Vard quite definitely operates a number of shipyards, they do excellent work.

International customers buying at their Norwegian yards is a testament to the trade offs between price and quality in modern ship building.


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## Kirkhill

http://www.vard.com/products/pages/shipbuilding.aspx

Langsten was where the Svalbard was built.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Yes, Not a Sig Op, I am referring to VARD Marine's Canadian subsidiary, which is the one that is doing the work with Seaspan on the design for various ships of the Shipbuilding Strategy and I believe also helped with the design work on the AOPS.

That division of Fincantierri, even though under the VARD umbrella is an engineering and marine architecture outfit. It was born of the acquisition of STX Marine, with its patrol vessels and ice breakers designs, by Kraevner, first, then by VARD.

The actual shipyards of VARD and VARD itself, before acquiring this book of designs from Kraevner, was concentrating and almost exclusively into construction of oil rig support vessels and other small specialized oil exploration vessels.

When the most famous products on VARD's list of "models" were built, be it the Svalbard or the Nordkapp for ice breaking ships, or the New Zealand's Wellington and Otago OPV, or the Irish naval Service's Beckett class or Roisin class vessels, it was either STX Marine or Kraevner working on their own behalf that were doing the design work. VARD just bought them out to acquire the rights to the designs.


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## MarkOttawa

Oldgateboatdriver: Indeed--a tweet to me from Aker Arctic:
https://twitter.com/AkerArctic/status/905735052516044802



> @AkerArctic
> Interesting how a project that began as a Canadian-Finnish co-operation under STX ended up as a "Norwegian design"...



Second tweet from Aker Arctic:
https://twitter.com/AkerArctic/status/905807608304553984



> @AkerArctic
> No problem. VARD inherited the project from STX Canada Marine led team where we were responsible for icebreaking hull form, propulsion etc.



Mark
Ottawa

Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa

Seaspan late for CCG, will delay RCN JSS, CCG icebreaker:


> Seaspan holds open house to show off new vessel
> 
> Members of the public were able to get up close in North Vancouver to Canada’s nearly complete first offshore fisheries science vessel which will come to Esquimalt for its final testing.
> 
> More than 3,300 people toured Seaspan’s Vancouver Shipyards’ open house on Sunday to see what taxpayers are buying. In 2011, the federal government announced that Seaspan would be negotiating contracts worth up to $8 billion to build non-combat ships for the navy and Canadian Coast Guard.
> 
> The first of three science vessels will likely be launched in early December at Vancouver Shipyards. It is not yet know when it will be towed to Seaspan-owned Victoria Shipyards, based in Esquimalt, for preparation to hand over to the federal government.
> 
> It was _initially expected to be delivered this year but now that will not take place until 2018_ [emphasis added].
> 
> Two other science vessels are also under construction in North Vancouver. They are to be ready in 2019.
> 
> It was learned last month that federal officials are taking a fresh look at the budgets and construction schedules for two new navy resupply vessels and for Canada’s planned new polar icebreaker, also to be built in North Vancouver.
> 
> This review is being carried out because _the three science vessels are arriving later than originally planned_ [emphasis added]...
> http://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/seaspan-holds-open-house-to-show-off-new-vessel-1.23052733



Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson

I went to the open house, it was a great time. The First OFSV is almost ready for launching, Hull #2 & 3 are moving along and the people say they have picked up some time from lessons learned. The actual yard was finished around Oct 2014, the design when delivered to the shipyard was badly flawed and required redesigning, who's fault was that? Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"


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## jmt18325

Any word when the OOSV might start?  The yard is supposed to be capable of building 4 ships at a time.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Colin P said:
			
		

> Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"



Your answer is in your question, Colin: What else would the government of Canada design but something top-heavy? It's in their very nature to be top-heavy in everything they do.  ;D


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## MarkOttawa

Note this from DFO on CCG vessels from FY 2015-16 "Report on Plans and Priorities":



> ...
> *Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels*
> ...
> Design contract completion: February 2012
> Contract Award for Construction Engineering: February 2013
> Contract Award for Construction: 2014-15
> First two vessels to be delivered: 2016-17 [now first 2018]
> Delivery of final Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel: 2016-17 [other two now 2019]
> ...
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.2



But 2016-17 and 2017-18 Reports do not even cover OFSVs:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2016-17/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Hmmm.

Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson

Hmmm Irving took 3 years to build the first Hero Class, about the same for the OFSVs, which will launch the first ones shortly. Seem according to the webpage that the construction contract for the Science vessel is not yet awarded.


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## MarkOttawa

Fifty-four year old CCGS Hudson can't even get refit done properly in Canada--for shame, how old must the fleet get?  Note last sentence in quote:



> Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit
> _Marine research vessel Hudson towed from Hamilton, Ont., shipyard Friday with repairs unfinished_
> 
> The Government of Canada is pulling the plug on the much-delayed refit of the venerable Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson. CBC News has learned the Coast Guard towed the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard Friday with the $4-million refit unfinished.
> 
> $4M Canadian Coast Guard ship refit months behind schedule
> 
> The ocean science research ship arrived at Heddle Marine in Hamilton, Ont., in December 2016 for maintenance work that was supposed to be completed in May.
> 
> The Coast Guard won't say what went wrong and can't say when the ship will be back in service.
> Towed to Burlington
> 
> "The Canadian Coast Guard and Public Services and Procurement Canada have worked closely with Heddle Marine to manage delays in the scheduled maintenance of the CCGS Hudson, and to bring her back into service in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> "Despite those efforts, the work has not been completed," spokesperson Vance Chow said in an emailed response to questions from CBC News.
> 
> On Friday, the 91-metre ship was towed across Hamilton Harbour to the Canada Centre for Inland Waters — a federal facility in Burlington — "to await the completion of the maintenance work required before she can return to service."
> 
> The Coast Guard says new timelines for the ship's return to service are currently under review.
> 
> The refit included overhauling the superstructure and masts, blasting and recoating the hull, replacing steel and repairing the rudder.
> Refit future uncertain
> 
> When CBC News revealed the refit delays in August, the company said it had been instructed by the Coast Guard not to discuss the situation.
> 
> Heddle Marine spokesperson Shaun Padulo emailed a short statement in response to CBC News inquiries on Friday about the end of the refit.
> 
> "Although there were a number of challenges faced during the dry docking of the CCGS Hudson which led to delays in the completion of the work, Canada has accepted all of the completed work," Padulo wrote.
> 
> The Coast Guard has not responded to a request to explain the nature of the refit delay, how much work remains on the refit or who will pay.
> 
> The delay has already forced the cancellation of scientific cruises scheduled for the storied Hudson, which is Canada's premier marine research vessel. _The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;topic=122642.25;last_msg=1505263



"The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed".  Both Harper and Trudeau governments have failed terribly to deal with the CCG's needs.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:



> *Departmental Plan 2017-18...
> 
> Supplementary information tables
> Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
> Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel*
> 
> Description: The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project will acquire a replacement vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard's largest science vessel, the Canadian Coast Guard Ship (CCGS) Hudson. This vessel was built in 1963 and its replacement is critical to fulfilment of the Department's science mandate as well as mandates of other government departments and agencies. The vessel currently operates on the east coast of Canada...
> 
> November 2015 - Contract award for construction engineering;
> 2018 - Contract award for shipbuilding; and
> 2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel.
> 
> ...The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project was initially approved in July 2008 at a total estimated cost of $108.9 million for the procurement of one vessel. In 2009, Treasury Board authorized a transfer of $35.5 million from the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels project to the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project in light of revised funding profiles to procure these vessels. As a result, the _Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project currently has a revised total estimated cost of $144.4 million (under review).
> 
> To date, Treasury Board has granted $73.4 million to the project for the definition phase, including construction engineering_ [emphasis added]...
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html



CCGS Hudson details:




http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71

New OOSV image:





https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Seaspan page on vessels for CCG, plus RCN JSS--OPV/MEMTV are sometime middle next decade with luck, see end of the post:



> https://www.seaspan.com/building



Seaspan president speaking 2015 (scroll down):



> ...It is only after the Polar [icebreaker] project that we get into a true production line with up to five Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked vessels and up to five Offshore Patrol Vessels...
> http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/nouvelles-news/2015-06-12-eng.html



DFO 2017-18 Plan:



> ...
> 2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker [SURE]
> ...
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

If anything like this happens (Congress and money) USCG could be a lot smarter than our shipbuilding (only one new icebreaker now planned):



> US icebreaker investment could bring 2 bn windfall to Finland
> _The US is planning to acquire several new icebreakers for its Arctic fleet. Although rules prevent it from importing the ships directly, the Finns are counting on US manufacturers needing plenty of expert consultation and parts. _
> 
> As its Polar-class icebreakers reach the end of their effective lifetimes, the United States is looking to quickly build a new fleet of heavy icebreakers. The state of Finland and over a dozen private Finnish companies are hoping the investment will be profitable for them as well, as suppliers and designers. A campaign is underway to convince the Americans to employ their services.
> 
> The US plan at present is to build three heavy and three medium polar icebreakers, with more built at a future date. The total cost of the first phase of the investment is estimated to rise to 4 billion euros.
> 
> The US has a law that prohibits the Coast Guard and Navy from buying certain vessels from foreign countries. The plan is to build each of the new high-tech ships at a single port somewhere in the United States, but it is also clear that the US will need help in this process.
> 
> Another law says that 51 percent of the vessel's parts must be made domestically, leaving 49 percent of the equipment, motors and design work free to be imported.
> 
> "If Finland were to win the entire share, it would be a deal worth two billion euros," says Ulla Lainio, an expert at Finland's export trade promoter Finpro, who is responsible for the organisation's maritime and offshore growth programmes.
> "We've got a good chance"
> 
> Tero Vauraste from the state-owned polar vessel service Arctia says Finland has a good chance to finally break into the US icebreaker market with this latest development.
> 
> "The US icebreaking capacity is nowhere near its requirements. Finland, on the other hand, is number one in the field. We have expertise in the entire chain of services: from design to implementation to maintenance and repair," he says.
> 
> Next year's US budget is currently being wrangled over in Washington, and decisions on appropriations will be soon forthcoming. Over 20 Finnish firms – including leading systems providers and machine shops – have been lobbying for a piece of the pie...
> 
> The initial schedule has laid out that the first new US icebreaker be ready for action in 2023. This means that in order to leave enough time for the engines and speciality parts to be manufactured, procurement should start by the end of 2019 at the latest.
> 
> After the first ship is completed, the other two should be taken into use in 2025 and 2026...
> https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/us_icebreaker_investment_could_bring_2_bn_windfall_to_finland/9872182


  

2023 would be before new CCG Seaspan icebreaker, supposedly to be delivered 2024:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

It's good that they're getting ships, now they just need a crew to put on them...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-confirms-some-ships-docked-due-to-phoenix-pay-issues/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:
> 
> CCGS Hudson details:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71
> 
> New OOSV image:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Not sure why they are showing the Tully which has been in service for years and has a good name for herself. Unlike the Sinclair which was an utter dog http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist4.php?&name=James%20Sinclair%20%28F.P.V.%29&id=24974


----------



## MarkOttawa

Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240



> @chantierdavie
> 
> AIVIQ is a modern, powerful and highly affordable polar icebreaker which is immediately available for the Canadian Coast Guard #cdnpoli



November 2016:



> Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## daftandbarmy

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
> https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240
> 
> November 2016:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



But how will that help the Prime Minister provide more support to Quebec?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Slightly bigger and more ice capable than an AOP's Not opposed to this as a supplementary Ice Breaker/Rescue ship to the CCG. Not sure she would be good for buoy tending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiviq


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

She's an anchor handling and supply ship for oil platforms. As such, she has two large cranes with high ratings, a good working deck aft and cargo holds for chains, anchors and all other associated paraphernalia within reach of those cranes. If you're set up to drop, move or recover oil platforms anchors in very specific locations, seems like a pretty reasonable set up for buoy work to me.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE


----------



## MarkOttawa

C'mon man! #200M per year to keep old vessels afloat, nothing for new ships:



> Liberals promise new funds for cash-strapped coast guard, fisheries department
> _'Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair'_
> 
> The Trudeau government has promised an infusion of much-needed cash for the Canadian Coast Guard and federal Fisheries Department, which documents show have suffered from years of chronic underfunding.
> 
> The question is whether the new funding will be enough.
> 
> The new money was included in the federal fiscal update, which the Liberals released to much fanfare on Tuesday, and works out to more than $1.2 billion over the next six years.
> 
> The government says the funds will be used in a variety of ways, including maintenance to keep the Coast Guard's aging ships, navigational aids and communications equipment in working order.
> 
> Money will also be used to train new staff, monitor fish stocks, upgrade radio and information networks and for icebreaking services.
> 
> The new funds will no doubt be welcomed by coast guard and fisheries officials, who warned Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc when he took over the portfolio last year that they were struggling to make ends meet.
> 
> But University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert, who has worked closely with the coast guard, said the promised new cash represents a fraction of what is really needed.
> 
> "Good on them for helping on the operational side," he said. "_But $200 million per year? Come on_  [emphasis added]."
> 
> *Demands exceeding Coast Guard budget*
> 
> Briefing notes prepared for Leblanc and obtained by The Canadian Press show the toll has been particularly heavy on the coast guard, whose job is to protect Canada's waterways and keep them safe and open to trade.
> 
> The agency relies on a fleet of 116 ships and 22 helicopters as well as 17,000 navigational aids and a network of 300 radio towers across Canada to accomplish this task.
> 
> But the briefing notes say that the demands placed on the coast guard had exceeded its $1.1-billion budget, which had forced officials to start making trade offs.
> 
> "For several years," officials wrote, "CCG has been attempting to protect these services from reductions by reallocating funds from maintenance."
> 
> The decision to divert money away from maintenance isn't insignificant given the _age of the coast guard's fleet, with many of its ships more than 30 years old and some approaching 50_ [emphasis added].
> 
> "Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair," Leblanc was told. "In 2013-14, 1,595 operational days were lost due to breakdowns."
> Financial challenges
> 
> The government is working to replace some of those ships as part of its national shipbuilding strategy, starting with the delivery of a new offshore fisheries science vessel early next year.
> 
> But the entire strategy has been marred by delays and cost overruns, which has forced the government to look for stop-gaps such as refitting extremely old ships or, when that won't work, leasing privately owned vessels.
> 
> In the meantime, government officials have said they are reviewing both the construction schedules and budgets of the new vessels.
> 
> The coast guard's overall financial situation was considered so severe last year that the government quietly ordered a review of its real financial risks and requirements, though it's unclear where that review sits...
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-fiscal-update-coast-guard-1.4372059



Sunny ways for CCG and CAF, eh Justin?  Heck, these are just core federal responsibilities but you'd rather bribe people with their descendants' money for votes (if not their own if the crunch comes sooner).

Hurl.

To repeat what it's all about, from 2016:



> Canadian Coast Guard Going Down
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Jarnhamar

Did we give that $241 million to the Clinton Foundation yet?  Seems like the CCG could use it more.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Mind you the CCG fleet is young compared to the USCG.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE



The draft would be the only issue.

Bouy deployment and recovery is regularly done by off shore supply vessels of similar design, wave rider weather bouys are regularly launched and recovered in the fields off Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

If you've got rail cranes or a crane at the stern, then doing it over the stern is ideal, in most supply vessels, the stern is specifically designed for running chain,.

The CCGS Grenfel is regularly employed in a supplementary role as a bouy tender, her cranes are pedestal boom cranes, fixed in position just aft of the superstructure, I've never been on her for bouy tending, but I would assume they'd flake the chain on deck and run it out from the "rescue zone", mid ship.

The CCGS Terry Fox also lays the occasional bouy.

Practically speaking, most of the "smaller" bouys are laid from the work barges anyway, even some of the larger ones are as well, depending on the area.

The Aiviq would be a poor dedicated bouy tender, but if she had a work barge, she'd certainly be able to fill in here and there, and in fairness, it's not a lack bouy tenders that's the coast guards primary concern, it's a lack of ice breakers.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

One thing I have noted over the years is that the West Coast and East Coast CCG do everything differently and both will tell you that the other is wrong. 


edit: I only did one deep sea ODAS deployment. Basically the workboat towed the buoy away from the ship, with the anchor over the side on a quick release. Once all the mooring line was payed out, the anchor was released and as soon as the felt the buoy being pulled the boat released the buoy. Most of our buoy deployments were 40-120' using a 3 ton serrated anchor and chain.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> One thing I have noted over the years is that the West Coast and East Coast CCG do everything differently and both will tell you that the other is wrong.



Atlantic region and Newfoundland region did everything different and both said the other was wrong...

You can imagine how it went when they merged a few years ago....

The only real consistency across the organization is that they're all out to lunch on a many things


----------



## jollyjacktar

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Atlantic region and Newfoundland region did everything different and both said the other was wrong...
> 
> You can imagine how it went when they merged a few years ago....
> 
> The only real consistency across the organization is that they're all out to lunch on a many things



So, no different than the navy then.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Actually, a lot different than the Navy.

To understand the Canadian Coast Guard, and I am sorry to be this blunt, you have to understand that you are fundamentally dealing with a bunch of merchant ships manned by a bunch of merchant seaman, who to make matters worse are civil servants.

When I served in the Navy in Quebec city, one of my friend was the Engineering Mate on the Norman McLeod (one of the two alternating one). That was his civil service job. It was his - no rotation to shore jobs, posting to "headquarters ' or change in posting - until he decided to retire or until he elected to apply for a different job in the civil service.

The qualifications that the Coast Guard officers are given are merchant seaman certificates and they are free to go and use them onboard any other merchant ship. Since there is no "centralized" training system and they are merchant seaman, there are no orders or regulations or other similar document that would standardize anything across the whole Coast Guard and each ship's crew is free to do things and use method for operating that they will, so long as they are compatible with good seamanship practices in the general merchant world.


----------



## chrisf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> The qualifications that the Coast Guard officers are given are merchant seaman certificates and they are free to go and use them onboard any other merchant ship. Since there is no "centralized" training system and they are merchant seaman, there are no orders or regulations or other similar document that would standardize anything across the whole Coast Guard and each ship's crew is free to do things and use method for operating that they will, so long as they are compatible with good seamanship practices in the general merchant world.



Quite accurate.

Any consistency within a region is only due to circulation of personnel within a region over a long period.

The equipment used isn't standardized either, there may be procurement of some items nationally, but after that, much of it is bought by region, or by individual vessel...

For example, at construction, each of the 1100 class bouy tenders were roughly the same, at least their major systems were the same, but after 30+ years of refits, they're all well diverged, as the refits are all managed at the regional level.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The Black and Pearkes were roughly the same, but the East Coast preferred a aft leading crane and the West want a forward leading crane, which affected the height of the superstructure. When they wanted to transfer ships from West to East they discovered that the Marine Certificates issued by the CCG College had no international standard, quite embarrassing. They ended up having to get the certification for the college done and I think they had to hire a Master to be on the ship to sail it through the Panama Canal. The Norm McLeod came out here and according to people working on her, she was in terrible shape, asbestos was flaking off her pipes and ceiling, the refit was cancelled and she was sold off after sitting at the dock. Torn apart and rebuilt as a mega yacht. The West coast got screwed on that deal.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Actually, a lot different than the Navy.



I was being more tongue in cheek than anything else.  As the East and West coast each think they're doing it right and the other guys are wrong.  We may be not as extreme as the CG but we do have some bi-polar tendencies too.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Not good, can't imagine why it's been out of service this long?

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-MD-021-26497

2. Definition of the requirement 

o The CCGS Ann Harvey has been out of service since April 2015, leaving a large service gap in CCGs operational mandate in the North Atlantic. The purpose of this contract is to refit the vessel back into operating condition and allow it to return to full service as rapidly as possible.
o The Canadian Coast Guard has a requirement for the drydocking, engine installation and limited refit of the CCGS Ann Harvey. The working period for the drydocking is January 18, 2018 to June 15, 2018.  The CCGS Ann Harvey is presently a dead ship.  The vessel has no means of propulsion or working controls to operate the vessel to travel to any other port under its own power.  The drydocking will include the installation of three new engines, a new propulsion control system, a new bow thruster, a new sewage treatment system, hull coating. The refit will also include selected regulatory work and certification requiring drydocking (pulling and inspecting the tail shafts, seals, stern tubes, propellers, rudder) and miscellaneous regulatory surveys of the sea bays, sea chests, void spaces; fire prevention system/pumps.
o The current drydocking schedule for the CCGS Ann Harvey is facilitated by the arrival of the propulsion engines to be installed, allowing the vessel to return to operational service. Moving the vessel to an alternate location would, in its present condition, require a heavy lift transfer since CCG considers a tow in the North Atlantic along the Grand Banks of NL during the winter season too large of a risk for the asset, and CCG will not permit the towing of the vessel in the timeline required by this contract. Further to this, due to scheduled alongside repair work before and after the above stated work period, the vessel is not available for a tow outside of the timeline of this contract.

3. Criteria for assessment of the Statement of Capabilities (Minimum Essential Requirements) 

o Any interested supplier must demonstrate by way of a statement of capabilities that its product/equipment/system (as appropriate) meets the following requirements: 

1. Operating shipyard, equipped with steel plate cutting, and steel fabricating capabilities to support the required work.
2. The shipyard must be equipped with a certified drydock or certified floating dock capable of drydocking the CCGS Ann Harvey for the working period (January 18 2017 to June 15, 2018)
3. The Contractor must possess CSA W47.1, Certification for Companies for Fusion Welding of Steel (Minimum Div 2) or equivalent.
4. The supplier must be willing to accept full care and custody of the vessel from CCGS Base St. Johns to their facility, and assume all liability for the vessel while in their custody.
5. Vessel transfer and work scope would have to be completed within the time frame noted above
6. As part of their Statement of Capabilities, the shipyard will be required to include in their costing:
a.  a naval architect to develop a docking plan (including blocking plan) to safely dock and undock the vessel in their dry dock
b. the cost of completing the scope of work described above,
c. the cost of transferring the vessel to their facility.
7. As noted above, shipyards interested in submitting a Statement of Capabilities would be required to include in their costing a heavy lift vessel transfer to their facility (with all applicable insurance coverage).

4. Applicability of the trade agreement(s) to the procurement 

o This procurement is subject to the following trade agreement:
       The Canadian Free Trade Agreement (CFTA)

5. Set-aside under the Procurement Strategy for Aboriginal Business
             Not applicable

6. Comprehensive Land Claims Agreement(s):
             Not applicable

7. Justification for the Pre-Identified Supplier 

o The pre-identified supplier is the closest shipyard to the CCG Base in St. Johns, with the infrastructure required to drydock the vessel. It would not require the vessel to leave the safety of its home port.

8. Government Contracts Regulations Exception(s) 

The following exception(s) to the Government Contracts Regulations is (are) invoked for this procurement under subsection subsection 6(c), and (d) 

     6 Notwithstanding section 5, a contracting authority may enter into a contract without soliciting bids where
           6(c) the nature of the work is such that it would not be in the public interest to solicit bids; 
           6(d) only one person is capable of performing the contract.


9. Exclusions and/or Limited Tendering Reasons 
            Not applicable

10. Ownership of Intellectual Property 
       Not applicable.

11. Period of the proposed contract or delivery date 

o The estimated drydocking and work period for CCGS Ann Harvey is between January 18 2018 and June 15, 2018.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Not good, can't imagine why it's been out of service this long?



Because they punched a large hole in it and flooded three compartments, including her antiquated propulsion system.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/ann-harvey-under-tow-on-2-day-journey-to-st-john-s-1.3023084

She and her sister ships already had a mid-life extension planned for around now, she just got pushed to the front of the line.

It's just moving at the speed of government.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Thanks, I forgot about that incident. The 1100 are a good all round design, she be worth fixing.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Thanks, I forgot about that incident. The 1100 are a good all round design, she be worth fixing.



They're good boats, but they're only worth fixing because we're so bad at buying new ones.

The scope of the job on the Harvey is not likely much more than the scope of the midlife will be on her sister ships... another suffered a rather violent generator failure about five years ago... they (the generators) had exceeded the recommended service life from the manufacturer by a number of years... not sure what happened since, but the plan at the time was to run it on two instead of three until the midlife... so they're still in service, still past the end of their life, and they're five years older now.

Tender for generator replacement on all six boats... https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-ML-044-26020

Edit: After a little bit of google, looks like ABB will be replacing the propulsion drives... 

http://www.abb.ca/cawp/seitp202/b63e2106dadbb404c12581390045dd74.aspx

They make a good, durable, idiot proof drive system... the coast guard makes a good, durable idiot though, and it'll be a night and day change from what they're used to dealing with, so hopefully it'll end well


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Interesting, thanks for all the info, I have been away from the fleet for sometime and lost the pulse.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Interesting, thanks for all the info, I have been away from the fleet for sometime and lost the pulse.



I've been asked a few times if I'd go back.

They may have thought I was joking when I said sure, right after you have a 400% pay raise and the fleet goes dry.

It's certainly an interesting place to work though.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

yea they are struggling to hire out here as well. We had guys from the weather ships when I was in the fleet, those guys were serious alcoholics, on the SAR vessels, drinking was not much of a problem, the buoy tenders were, the Layday system was just introduced as I arrived on the Pearkes and that forced some of them to get a life off of the ship, which was literally their home. I did luck out and get a fabulous Bosun who was great to learn from.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> yea they are struggling to hire out here as well. We had guys from the weather ships when I was in the fleet, those guys were serious alcoholics, on the SAR vessels, drinking was not much of a problem, the buoy tenders were, the Layday system was just introduced as I arrived on the Pearkes and that forced some of them to get a life off of the ship, which was literally their home. I did luck out and get a fabulous Bosun who was great to learn from.



From what I understand, alcoholism isn't *as* rampant as it once was...

The *second* time we had an emergency at sea, and we couldn't muster a sober full sober fire team, I said I had enough.

There's policies on the consumption of alcohol, both on and off SAR, but enforcement varies widely depending on the skipper... SAR tasking meant the boat was dry, but practically speaking, it just meant the canteen stopped selling beer, hope you brought enough for yourself.

Purely my opinion, but if they were able to completely clear house of a lot of the existing crew, and reinterview for anyone who wants their job back, it might be a decent spot to work, eliminate the "old school" mentality, and bring in some fresh young keen individuals.

They've opened skipper and chief competitions up to the public since last year, which I think is a good thing, though the downside, they won't get the really talented individuals without opening up the purse strings as well.

Like I said, it's an interesting spot to work at least.


----------



## Spencer100

CCG looking for ice break and such on the St. Lawrence from the private companies

http://www.merx.com/English/SUPPLIER_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=428004&src=osr&FED_ONLY=0&ACTION=NEXT&rowcount=2000&lastpage=200&MoreResults=&PUBSORT=2&CLOSESORT=0&IS_SME=Y&hcode=ImOrnv3xu2q%2bC4d7c68Q8A%3d%3d


----------



## MarkOttawa

Good grief!  CCGS Hudson is 54-years old--just buy new vessels wherever built:



> Costs pile up from delayed Canadian Coast Guard vessel refit
> _Coast guard has been forced to charter 3 private vessels at a cost of $2.58 million, excluding tax_
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard has been forced to spend more than $2.5 million this fall to charter vessels to carry out at-sea science surveys because a much-delayed refit has left its own research ship unavailable.
> 
> Canada's East Coast ocean monitoring program usually takes place on the CCGS Hudson, but the 54-year old vessel is still not ready after a $4-million refit ran six months behind schedule.
> 
> In place of the Hudson, the coast guard has been forced to charter three private vessels at a cost of $2.58 million, excluding tax, CBC News has learned.
> 
> "Requests for proposals processes were conducted to secure alternative vessels for three zones which have been surveyed every year since 1998," Department of Fisheries and Oceans spokesperson Vance Chow said in a response to CBC News questions about the fallout from the refit.
> Vital information on ocean health
> 
> The twice-annual surveys collect a wide range of physical, chemical and biological data to measure ocean conditions...
> 
> 
> $4M refit contract for coast guard research vessel under review
> 
> Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit
> 
> As for the Hudson, it returned to its home port in Halifax one week ago, with the refit still unfinished.
> 
> "There is some minor outstanding work required that will be conducted alongside the ship's home port at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography," Chow said.
> 
> Lloyd's Register, the U.K.-based marine safety certifier, has given the vessel an interim provisional certificate, which is valid until Jan. 31, 2018...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The CCGS Hudson is now docked at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography in Dartmouth, N.S_
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-coasts-delayed-hudson-refit-1.4407288



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Comprehensive piece on CCG's acquistions of new helos (note single pilot)--effectively sole-sourcing glossed over but in any event was almost no public attention/controversy as airfrcraft made by Bell Montreal and CAF procurements are the ones media/pols focus on:



> Better, Faster, Stronger: The Canadian Coast Guard’s new helicopter fleet
> https://www.verticalmag.com/features/better-faster-stronger-canadian-coast-guards-new-helicopter-fleet/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The Coast Guard base in Shearwater, Nova Scotia, received its 412EPI in June 2017, and pilots have been quick to praise the additional capabilities it provides. Mike Reyno Photo_



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

These smaller vessels being built by shipyards outside NSS with "infrastructure" money--spreading the pork around but glad something being produced (cost?):



> Canadian Coast Guard picks Furuno for new SAR vessel class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard has selected Furuno to outfit its new Bay class search and rescue vessels.
> 
> The 55-foot CCGS Pennant Bay and CCGS Baie De Plaisance are the first of twelve hulls ordered by the CCG, with an option for six more.
> 
> CCGS Pennant Bay was built by Hike Metal Products in Wheatley, Ontario, while Baie De Plaisance was built by shipbuilder Chantier-Naval Forillon, Inc. in Gaspe, Quebec.
> 
> These new Bay class vessels, all named for Canadian bays, have been commissioned under Canada's Federal Infrastructure Initiative and the 2016-17 Fleet Renewal Plan.
> 
> The vessel's new Furuno electronics, including a multi-station NavNet TZtouch network with radar and depth sounder, will assist the CCG in its mission of keeping Canadians and Canadian waterways safe...
> http://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=28078:canadian-coast-guard-picks-furuno-for-new-sar-vessel-class&Itemid=257



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Further to this post,
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122642/post-1510147.html#msg1510147

what's going on?



> Heddle Marine wins Coast Guard contract months after aborted refit
> _$4-million exterior overhaul of CCGS Hudson fell months behind schedule and was left incomplete_
> 
> Questions are being raised about the awarding of another refit contract for the Canadian Coast Guard ship Hudson to the same company behind an aborted refit on the science research ship last year.
> 
> "My question is, with the problems with that dry docking, why was this firm allowed to bid on this one?" asked Wayne Snow, the CEO of Dartmouth-based KMS Industries Inc.
> 
> Snow was an unsuccessful bidder on a mechanical refit of the Hudson. The work was awarded Friday to Heddle Marine Service Inc (NL).
> 
> *Costs pile up from delayed Canadian Coast Guard vessel refit*
> 
> It's an affiliate of Heddle Marine Services, which carried out the troubled $4-million exterior overhaul of CCGS Hudson in 2017.
> 
> That refit was months behind schedule and still unfinished when Public Services and Procurement Canada stepped in in October and towed Hudson out of the Heddle Marine shipyard in Hamilton, Ont.
> 
> *Why a second chance?*
> 
> The plan was to complete the refit at a federal facility in nearby Burlington, Ont., but the job was incomplete when Hudson returned to its Halifax home port in November. The vessel was operating under an interim provision certificate by Lloyds Register.
> 
> The contract has been under review for months and outstanding issues remain.
> 
> *Canadian Coast Guard ship back in Halifax 6 months later than planned*
> 
> "For us, it's an issue that should be answered by government as to why this company is allowed to come back and bid after not completing the first refit," said Tony Kennedy of Canadian Marine Engineering, another losing bidder.
> 
> Kennedy and Snow are competitors, but are united in speaking out on this tender...
> 
> The winning bid is for 61 days of mechanical refits while CCGS Hudson is alongside its home base at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography.
> 
> Work is supposed to conclude in March, with Hudson available for spring science cruises.
> 
> As for the disputed contract at its Hamilton shipyard, Padulo said the company and PSPC are "finalizing" outstanding issues.
> 
> "Although there were challenges on both sides, we are working toward an amicable resolution," he said in an email to CBC News.
> 
> The federal government has never explained what went wrong with Heddle's 2017 refit nor whether it paid the company the full $4-million contract price. Months of delays had a costly cascading effect, they have admitted.
> 
> The Department of Fisheries and Oceans spent $2.5 million in 2017 chartering private vessels for scientific cruises because the Hudson was not available...
> 
> Public Services and Procurement Canada did not respond to CBC questions.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canadian-coast-guard-contracts-refit-ccgs-hudson-1.4486111



Gosh.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

The CCGS Hudson is 55 years old, and in poor condition...

An equally important question is why is the government so bad at replacing boats.

Heddle does about the same quality of work as any other marine contractor in Canada.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Pretty sure gov't will find way to sole-source to Davie if they really want to:



> Finnish company raises red flags over federal negotiations for Davie icebreakers
> 
> A Finnish company is questioning the Trudeau government’s decision to launch negotiations with Quebec shipyard Davie for the lease of four icebreakers without conducting a formal competition.
> 
> Helsinki-based Arctia Ltd. says it had expected a competition after the federal government asked shipowners in late 2016 to provide information about the icebreakers they had available for lease [see 2016 post on that below].
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau instead surprised many when he announced this week that the government would start talks with Davie, which has proposed to convert four icebreakers and lease them to the Canadian Coast Guard.
> 
> Trudeau’s announcement followed an intense lobbying campaign by the Quebec government, and came despite Davie’s central role in the RCMP’s investigation against suspended Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.
> 
> Arctia president Tero Vauraste says his _company has six icebreakers readily available for the coast guard_ [emphasis added], and that holding a competition is the best way to ensure best value for Canadian taxpayers.
> 
> Vauraste says that while it is too early to say whether a deal between the government and Davie would violate procurement laws, the new free trade deal between Canada and the EU includes provisions on procurement.
> 
> Public Works and Procurement Canada did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
> http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/finnish-company-raises-red-flags-over-federal-negotiations-for-davie-icebreakers



About Arctia position:



> The Finnish shipowner Arctia Ltd. is moving forward to support Canada in icebreaking and towing services. The company has responded to the Canadian Government’s Request for Information and Industry Consultation for Interim Icebreaking and Towing Capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, and continues to follow the tendering process. Arctia’s purpose-built icebreaker fleet is promptly available, and can serve the Canadian industry and Arctic communities within weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “We were quite surprised yesterday reading the news stating that negotiations will be launched with one interested supplier for the conversion and lease of existing supply vessels. We have understood that the open tender for interim icebreaking services is still open and does not cover any conversion costs“, states Tero Vauraste, the President and CEO of Arctia Ltd.
> 
> Arctia Ltd. participates in the Canadian Government’s tender for interim icebreaking solutions. The company is ready to charter its icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard and explore cooperative solutions to help Canada avoid the so-called icebreaker gap within the formal purchasing process. The Government’s public tender issued in November 2016 states that the Canadian Coast Guard may require additional icebreaking capacity provided by one (1) to five (5) icebreakers at various times over the next number of years.
> 
> “We have extensive experience in the North American Arctic. All our icebreakers have diesel-electric propulsion and they are designed specifically for challenging and long-lasting icebreaking operations. They need no conversion for operations in the Canadian Arctic. This is a clear advantage compared to our competitors. We are the only operator in the world that can provide multiple powerful heavy and medium heavy polar class icebreakers promptly and on a commercial basis“, Vauraste explains.
> 
> Arctia Ltd. is a Finnish shipowner specialized in icebreaking, ice management and towing. The company currently has eight icebreakers in its fleet, including IB Polaris, the first Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) powered icebreaker in the world. Finnish multipurpose icebreakers have been proven effective in the Canadian Arctic. Just this July, the Finnish MSV Nordica transited the Northwest Passage (NWP) from Vancouver, Canada, to Nuuk, Greenland, in 24 days with researchers and a Canadian Coast Guard officer on board. This transit set the record for the earliest crossing of the NWP. The Nordica now holds the records for both the earliest and latest season transits of the NWP.
> 
> Along with the Nordica, its sister vessel MSV Fennica has served in ice management tasks in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas in 2007 and from 2012 to 2015. Arctia’s converted IB Otso has worked on the north-eastern coast of Greenland...
> https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/11295-Arctia-Ltd-ready-to-support-Canada



2016:



> Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/david-icebreakers-shipyard-quebec-1.4494182

Looks like Davie is going to be supplying leased icebreakers.

My oppiniom, this will probably be a good thing.

They've got several ice breaker out of service right now, and some of the remainder aren't particularly reliable.


----------



## chrisf

CCGS Cygnus taking on water, enroute to St. John's...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-vessel-en-route-to-st-johns-reportedly-taking-on-water/

Rumor is the Atlantic Kingfisher has reached her, and she's still headed to St. John's under her own power.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D

Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:


----------



## MarkOttawa

Meanwhile in US (our fed governments are lamentable at looking after their core responsibilities--but USCG still needs funding from Congress):



> RFP For New Coast Guard Heavy Icebreaker Expected This Month
> 
> The request for proposals to build the nation’s next generation heavy icebreaker is expected to be released by the end of the month, the U.S. Coast Guard commandant said on Thursday.
> 
> Speaking at the annual WEST 2018 conference, Adm. Paul Zukunft wouldn’t comment on how much money the fiscal year 2019 budget dedicates to the icebreaker, but did say, “It does provide funding for an icebreaker, at least in the draft, so that provides the confidence level that industry needs.”
> 
> Previous estimates put the cost for the first heavy icebreaker cost at about $1 billion.
> 
> Five vendors are expected to submit proposals for the first-in-class ship. Zukunft said ultimately the Coast Guard wants to buy six icebreakers – three heavy and three medium icebreakers. Zukunft has previously stated the new heave icebreaker is scheduled to launch in 2023.
> 
> “We haven’t built one in 40 years,” Zukunft said.
> “It’s an investment in our shipbuilding industry here in the United States.”
> 
> The Coast Guard’s lone workable heavy icebreaker — USCGC Polar Star (WAGB-10) — spends about 300 days on missions or in a maintenance yard. A second heavy icebreaker, USCGC Polar Sea (WAGB-11), is used as a [parts donor to keep Polar Star seaworthy.
> 
> But, Zukunft acknowledged there’s been some debate about whether the Coast Guard is better off only buying one type of icebreaker, the heavies, and buying fewer of them – four instead of six.
> 
> “We know if you have a hot production line the unit costs come down, then you build a new product, that new product is more expensive than what you’re already building,” Zukunft said. “We’re still looking at six as the right number.”...
> https://news.usni.org/2018/02/08/31241



Of course until now main use of USCG big icebreakers has usually been in Antarctic.

Whilst Seaspan is to build one (only) CCG heavy icebreaker sometime in mid- to late-2020s never never land.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D
> 
> Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:



Her step-sister ship, the CCGS Cape Roger, nearly sank at the wharf 5 years ago when she rusted through under her stern tubes.

It was arguably a stroke of good luck when it happened, she was scheduled to be on fisheries patrol, but ended up in the harbour after damage was found on her life boat.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

A whole host of chickens coming home to roost it seems. They could ask Seaspan to build a 4th OFSV to help fill the gaps.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

OFSV's are too slow and not really appropriate for fisheries enforcement on the Grand Banks.

Unfortunately, the OPV/MEMTV's are scheduled to be built after the Diefenbaker. Though, If there is a break in construction - and Seaspan claims there is after the third OFSV, then perhaps one or two of the OPV/MEMTV can be snuck in.

But please: Don't delay the JSS's or Diefenbaker as a result.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)



Is it for sale? Even if it were, it's 28 years old.... anything past 30 years and you're pretty much at the end of the reliable service life for a vessel.

I realize the government is operating plenty of vessels older than 30 years right now, but most are in desperate need of replacement.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Colin P said:
			
		

> I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)



Problem is, Colin, if you give the Coast Guard a new but less capable vessel to do a task "in the meantime", it will end up being the vessel doing that job until it is retired 45 years later and deprive the CG of a proper vessel to do the job. How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard? 

As slow as the current offshore vessels are on the East coast (16 to17 knots), you want the next generation to be better and faster, not slower and merely adapted for the task. If you go in the NSPS thread, I just finished a long post that touches on what I think should be done concerning the Coast Guard East coast patrol capabilities.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

17kts is plenty fast for a displacement vessel, trying to get past that, means climbing against and breaking through your own bow wave. Unless you go long and skinny, with thirsty engines like the USCG  Island Class Cutters.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves. 

But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".

Anybody remembers the Turbot War?


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(



They are "newer", that's why the coast guard is in this mess 



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard?



Don't knock the new lease boats yet... they may turn out to be a pretty good option... of course, it could turn out to be a terrible idea...

The Aiviq at least (I can't find any details on the others) should have another good 23 years of service in her... I'm guessing unless they've got problems during the lease period, they'll end up buying her outright... an ice-breaking AHTS is a pretty good "all-purpose" vessel for the coast guard... the Terry Fox has worked out well during her service life

Aside from being an ice breaker, she's also capable as an off-shore tug, and she'll likely have an oil recovery system installed, so a good option for off-shore pollution response, and she's capable of laying bouys where her draft permits.

She'll probably be a pig for fuel though, and they may have some difficulty in maintenance up-front, as it's several generations ahead of what they're used to.

It's got potential at least.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Don't get me wrong, Not a Sig Op, I am not knocking the Davie interim vessels. I am hinting at the fact that when the Coast Guard gets them and they relieve some of the river icebreakers, the CG may just decide to keep them, retire the older icebreakers and conveniently forget to work towards getting actual future replacements - restarting the whole cycle of urgent replacement at a later date.


----------



## chrisf

Absolutely agreed... wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if in 2046, we're reading about the Aiviq limping her way into port, with no replacement in sight.

Not much political will to plan for anything past a 4 year election cycle.

Would be pretty great if they can keep some of this ship-building momentum going...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves.
> 
> But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".
> 
> Anybody remembers the Turbot War?



Most of the speedy designed patrol boats come with a cost, the Island Class the USCG used started suffering from cracking, because most fast patrol boats suffer from light scantlings, needed to keep them from being to thirsty. The reason the CG has not gone after fast patrol craft, is because they are generally 1 trick ponies and don't do weather well. The R class rolled like pigs.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Colin, I am not talking about fast inshore boats like the Island class and R-boats "dinky-toys" you mention. I am talking about offshore vessels that can face the Grand banks, in the same 1500 to 2400 tons range as the current Coast Guard such vessels I mentioned above, but faster.

Quick examples (and all of these can be either Coast Guard or military versions as need be)[photos in order of mention]:

French L'Adroit, 1500 tons, 21 Kts;
Canadian design/New Zealand operated Otago, 1900 tons, 22 Kts;
Damen design 1800 Axebow, 1800 tons, 26 Kts;
British River class batch 2, 2200 tons, 24 Kts.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Nice looking boats, but the CCG management will look at them and say: "Other than burn fuel at painful rates, what else can they do?" They want it to drag gear for science collection, do some buoy tending, etc. 

You be surprised where the USCG took their Island Class, including Alaska and talking to an XO on one that we tied up alongside, they went offshore as well. Also clutched in at idle was 9kts......


----------



## MarkOttawa

Over to Congress for funding:



> Coast Guard Budget Would Fund 1st New Heavy Icebreaker in 40 Years
> 
> The Coast Guard finds itself in a significantly different budget environment this year -- not only is the service requesting a sizeable bump in funding, the money would help pay for its first new heavy icebreaker in 40 years.
> 
> The service asked for a total of about $11.7 billion in funding for fiscal 2019, an increase of $979 million, or 8.4 percent, over its previous request, according to a document released Monday as part of President Donald Trump's budget request.
> 
> Last year, by comparison, the service faced a $1.3 billion cut before launching a massive and ultimately successful public relations campaign to underscore its importance to national security despite being the smallest of the U.S. military services and the only one to fall under the Department of Homeland Security rather than the Defense Department.
> 
> The additional money for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1 would include $750 million for a new heavy icebreaker slated for delivery in 2023, according to the budget document. The funding would go toward building "the Nation's first new heavy Polar Icebreaker in over 40 years," it states.
> 
> The _money "continues efforts to award a contract for detail design and construction to maintain scheduled delivery for a new icebreaker in 2023. Specifically, funding provides detail, design, long lead time materials, construction, program management office support, feasibility studies and maintaining the indicative design, cybersecurity planning, project resident office initiation, and Navy reimbursable technical support_ [emphasis added, more money will be needed to finish it]," the document continues. "This acquisition is recapitalizing the Coast Guard's heavy polar icebreaker fleet."
> 
> The Coast Guard wants to replace the barely seaworthy Polar Star for Arctic missions with a fleet of three heavy icebreakers. Last fall, it released a draft request for proposals from potential builders for a new heavy icebreaker design. The service also wants to build three medium icebreakers...
> https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/12/coast-guard-budget-would-fund-1st-new-heavy-icebreaker-40-years.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well, Colin, the management didn't ask that when they use Cape Roger, Cygnus, Leonard J. Cowley or the Grenfeld, because all they can and actually do is fisheries patrol and, secondarily, high seas SAR.

All four patrol vessels I propose above can do that and more - for starters they can all carry/operate a larger helicopter (medium as opposed to light, medium meaning EH101/NH90/Cormorant/Cyclone). All carry firefighting gear (only Grenfeld currently does); the Adroit, Damen product and Otago can carry containerized pollution control equipment and, all four carry larger and better Rhib's for fisheries boardings. The Damen product and Otago can carry mission containers at the back and have cranes to operate whatever they contain. The current four patrol vessels can't do that.

As for fuel consumption, in terms of actual fuel consumed per NM, they are all in the same range as the four current Coast Guard vessels, which is approx. 1.4 to 1.7 cu ft of fuel per Nautical Mile.

However, I think we are straying from the topic, here, which is the Coast Guard is going down, and in this case, more particularly, the East coast fisheries protection vessels are falling apart and need urgent replacing - now - not in 15 years.


----------



## chrisf

Fwiw...

Only the cygnus/cape roger/cowley are intended to perform fisheries patrol work on the grand banks.

Only the cowley can carry a helicopter, but it very seldom does.

The cygnus and roger have helidecks but no hanger.

The grenfel has never had an intended role, and the unofficial story, as i understand, is that it was bought to bail out the yard that built on spec for the oil industry but couldn't sell it (don't quote me on this part, thats just what I collected from grumblings)

It found its niche refueling light stations, built as a PSV, it had substantial cargo tanks for fuel, a large pump and liquid cargo manifold...

With the demise of diesel powered light stations, it really served no purpose.

Its not an ice breaker, so its limited for a lot of work the coast guard does.

Mostly it fills in for other vessels when they're under going maintenance, and spends a lot of time in St Johns harbour doing dedicated SAR standby.

They cold stacked it a few years ago, and were going to dispose of it, but there was a public out cry as the general public saw it as a loss of SAR assests (it was old junk slowly sinking in the dark)

When the Ann Harvey was damaged, they immediately invested a substantial amount to bring the Grenfel back into service, but it can't do everything the Harvey could.

If it were an anchor handler, or could break ice, or even if it wasn't 31, it might not be so bad, but the fact that its in service now is a testament to how desperately new ships are needed.

One huge asset many of the coast guard vessels have going for them is their miranda davits.

Its sort of a cross between a conventional single point luffing davit, and a skate davit.

They're able to launch and recover an FRC in much heavier weather than most ships can.

They're quite rough on the paint, but they're extremely good as far as FRC davits go.

With any luck, we'll see these on future vessels.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Frankly the 1100's are a great design all around and one of the few multi-task ships I have seen that really does well at all the tasks given to them. Speed is the only thing they don't do well. We should have slowly been churning out this design with minor modifications over the years and you would have a newer fleet and more common design allowing crews to cross deck easier.


----------



## chrisf

Agreed, 1100 is a great design/concept for what it does.

A few new technology upgrades would make leaps and bounds on top of an already good basic vessel design and concept...

- DP1 conning system
- Automated machinery space
- Constant tension towing winch
- more reliable propulsion system
- modern crane

Some of those items are already planned for the midlife on the existing ships...

First step with the midlife program is the turn the Ann Harve back into a ship instead of a barge


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.


----------



## YZT580

Colin P said:
			
		

> Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.



Isn't that the whole reason behind the programme: to ensure that we are never in this position again?  The painful part is trying to catch up.


----------



## MarkOttawa

A truly sorry saga--and no replacement until early 2020s from Seaspan:



> Heddle Marine paid 98% of contract for botched Hudson refit
> _Federal government still won't say what went wrong with the refit_
> 
> The end may be in sight to the sorry saga of the 2017 refit-gone-wrong of Canada's premier scientific research vessel the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson.
> 
> But not before a government disclosure that Heddle Marine Services has been paid nearly 98 per cent of the $4-million contract price, even though the refit ran six months late and was still unfinished when the government yanked the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard, fearing the vessel would be trapped in the Great Lakes for a second winter.
> 
> "To date, a total of $3,912,221.92 (HST excluded) has been paid to Heddle Marine Service Inc," said Coast Guard spokesperson Vance Chow in a recent e-mailed response to CBC News.
> 
> *Why Ottawa pulled the plug*
> 
> The 54-year-old research ship went in for an exterior maintenance refit in December 2016.
> 
> The job was supposed to be completed in May 2017.
> 
> In October 2017, Public Services and Procurement Canada pulled the plug and had the Hudson towed out of the Hamilton, Ont., yard to complete the refit at a federal facility in nearby Burlington, Ont.
> 
> The Coast Guard said at the time only a minor amount of work remained.
> 
> $4M refit contract for coast guard research vessel under review
> 
> Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit
> 
> Coast Guard Commissioner Jeffrey Hutchinson later told a parliamentary committee "the work as being done and was generally being accepted" but delivery dates were being missed and winter was closing in.
> 
> "We had to do a very basic calculation and that is that the seaway closes on a given day and we needed the Hudson back on the East Coast before the seaway closed," Hutchinson said.
> 
> The delay forced the Coast Guard to spend more than $2.5 million chartering vessels to carry out at-sea surveys because the Hudson was not available.
> 
> *Still no explanation from federal government*
> 
> The government still won't say what went wrong with the refit.
> 
> "Discussions between PSPC, the CCG (Canadian Coast Guard) and the contractor are still ongoing concerning the nature of the delays," said Chow...
> 
> The CCGS Hudson is now back at home base in Dartmouth undergoing a scheduled interior refit being carried out alongside by Heddle Marine.
> 
> Ottawa awarded the $840,000 tender to Heddle Marine Service Inc. (NL), which it maintains is a separate operating entity from Heddle Marine Services.
> 
> The two companies share the same website...
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/heddle-marine-services-hudson-retrofit-payment-1.4540213





> [DFO] Departmental Plan 2017-18 Supplementary information tables
> *Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
> Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel*
> ...
> 2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel...
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

The saddest thing here is seeing a 54 year old ship being described as "Canada's premier scientific research vessel". It really shows how seriously Canada takes its scientific research and supports the various agencies carrying such work.

 :facepalm:


----------



## MarkOttawa

CCG can only watch in envy and dream:



> Coast Guard set to release new heavy icebreaker RFP
> 
> The Coast Guard’s top officer announced Thursday that the service is set to release its request for proposal as early as Friday for its long-awaited heavy icebreaker replacement.
> 
> Adm. Paul Zukunft told an audience at the annual State of the Coast Guard address that the _RFP will go out to five potential vendors_ [emphasis added] and will be a comprehensive set of requirements and specifications for the new cutter.
> 
> “_We need the first one in the water by 2023 so we are on an accelerated timeline,” Zukunft told a group of reporters. “We are still predecisional on the 19 budget but we’re optimistic that this isn’t just a request but that the funding is there to match it. Now this is just the first one, we’re looking at a fleet of six_ [emphasis added], but this gets the ball rolling. We’ve been working this for 20 years now but we’re getting out the the starting blocks and we need to sprint.”
> 
> The Coast Guard is looking to build a fleet of three heavy and three medium icebreakers in the coming years.
> 
> Zukunft also left open the possibility that the Icebreaker might need to be armed at some point in the future to counter Russia’s increasingly assertive presence in the region...
> https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/03/01/coast-guard-set-to-release-new-heavy-icebreaker-rfp/



Sigh.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Don't get your hopes up, still vapourware


----------



## MarkOttawa

More on Finnish shipbuilder Arctia's offer of icebreakers for CGG vs. Davie's:



> Exposed in the north: Canada falls behind in developing the Arctic
> ...
> HELSINKI — A map of the North Pole, with a miniature Finnish flag pinned squarely in the middle, decorates the small coffee table in Tero Vauraste’s Helsinki office, one that actually floats atop the Gulf of Finland. As the current chair of the Arctic Economic Council and chief executive of Finland’s icebreaker powerhouse Arctia Inc., the north is familiar territory to Vauraste — much like the frigid -26 C temperatures outside his office in late February.
> 
> At the moment, Vauraste is feeling a bit frustrated with the Canadian government.
> 
> Arctia wants to supply Canada with several much-needed interim icebreakers. The state-backed company believed it was on track to help provide the fleet, until Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in January went on CBC/Radio-Canada and said the government was beginning negotiations with the Chantier Davie Canada Inc. shipyard in Quebec to lease three icebreakers.
> 
> “That was, for us, a big surprise and quite unexpected,” Vauraste said, pointing out Arctia has icebreakers ready to send to Canada.
> 
> Perhaps he shouldn’t have been surprised that Canada doesn’t seem to be in a rush to replace its aging fleet of icebreakers. Experts say that’s just one example of how Canada is struggling to keep pace with the Arctic research and development being conducted by Nordic countries such as Finland, as well as Russia and China...
> 
> Arctia, which provides most of the world’s icebreakers, had submitted a proposal to the Canadian government after a request for information was opened more than a year ago. The company was hoping to lease part of its existing fleet to Canada on an interim basis.
> 
> “Our proposal was that we could work together by enhancing our current capacity. We already have a fleet of one to five icebreakers, which was requested, that could work in the Canadian Arctic without any big conversions,” Vauraste said. “The vessels are more or less ready to start working there any day… so it’s frustrating.”
> 
> A spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada said the government is currently in negotiations with Chantier Davie regarding three medium-sized icebreakers.
> 
> “Our government is focused on providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to do their work in a timely and efficient way, and at the best cost to Canadian taxpayers,” spokesperson Jean-François Létourneau said.
> 
> Interim icebreakers don’t provide a long-term solution for Canada’s aging fleet, where the average age is approaching four decades, but they would partly address the country’s lagging profile in the Arctic...
> http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/finland-feature



Endless flipping Canadian gov't blah, blah, blah...i.e. Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! (and Quebec).

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Swampbuggy

3 medium icebreakers? I guess that means AIVIQ is off the table. Great. It was the piece of PROJECT RESOLUTE that would likely have the largest payoff, with TERRY FOX and LOUIS ST LAURENT in their golden years.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Lots of people in Quebec getting upset over feds's delay in giving contract to Davie for its "Project Resolute" plans for four converted icebreaking vessels (zero coverage in English media)--note esp. at end of first story the Radio-Canada scoop that gov has been sitting on a six-vessel CCG "Program Icebreaker" for year and half.  Which Seaspan could not start on for another decade and Irving couldn't do with commitment to CSCs--so is idea to have Davie build them?  But when?  And what about Davie's workers and suppliers in the meantime.

Lots of political problems for both fed and Quebec Liberals:

1) 





> Brise-glaces et Davie : des doutes sur la volonté d’Ottawa
> 
> 
> ...Des documents stratégiques obtenus par Radio-Canada démontrent qu’il existe un plan que le gouvernement refuse de dévoiler publiquement. Il vise la construction de six nouveaux brise-glaces.
> 
> Cela s’inscrit dans ce qui a été baptisé « Program Icebreaker » et qui permettrait de remplacer graduellement la flotte actuelle dont l’âge moyen est de plus de 35 ans.
> 
> Les six navires desserviraient le sud du Canada et l’Arctique tout en permettant la tenue d’activités scientifiques. Leur construction est jugée essentielle pour réduire les risques qui pèsent sur l’économie insistent les documents qui précisent que l’industrie maritime n’est pas adéquatement desservie. Or, Radio-Canada peut confirmer que le gouvernement a ce plan en main depuis au moins un an et demi.
> 
> Cela soulève des questions étant donné que les chantiers Irving d’Halifax et Seaspan de Vancouver ont des carnets de commande déjà bien remplis. Pourquoi le gouvernement tarde-t-il à mettre le plan à exécution ? A-t-il subi les pressions des chantiers concurrents de Davie? Attend-il l’année électorale pour bouger ?
> 
> Pourtant, les libéraux ne cessent de répéter que le remplacement des vieux brise-glaces est une priorité.
> http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1091392/brise-glaces-davie



2) 





> [PHOTOS] Ottawa pointé du doigt pour la lenteur des projets à la Davie
> Les employés et les fournisseurs du chantier naval accusent le gouvernement de ne pas en faire assez pour la relance
> http://www.journaldequebec.com/2018/03/26/photos-manifestation-des-employes-de-la-davie-au-bureau-de-duclos



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Interesting that the first article mentions that the blockage to the negotiations would originate from the Coast Guard - not the government. 

Similarly, it is a little weird that the same Coast Guard would produce a "icebreaker project" document for the government a year and a half ago indicating the immediate need for six new icebreakers (since they are for down South and Arctic as a secondary research duty - I assume those are class 3 or 4 river icebreakers) when they know full well that there is no way that Seaspan would be able to even begin construction of the first one for at least 12 years. 

Is it possible that we have an internal conflict: The Government wants to move with the "interim" purchase - which Coast Guard officials suspect would lead to delays if not abandonment of their proposed "icebreaker project", so the Coast Guard is running interference to force the hand of the government into moving right away to the acquisition of six new icebreakers. I can see how many civil servants at Procurement Canada might feel that such action is akin to a "betrayal" of the NSPS, even if such ice breakers were never contemplated as part of it.

We may be seeing just the visible portion of an internal fight within the civil service here.


----------



## Uzlu

> Industry to help coast guard with icebreaking
> 
> OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard has been given new powers to call on industry for short-term help in clearing ice-choked seaways — even as plans for replacing the agency's aging icebreaker fleet over the long term remain in flux.
> 
> The new powers were outlined Tuesday as officials marked the start of the spring icebreaking season in the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, through which much of Canada's foreign trade flows.
> 
> The coast guard will be able to enlist pre-approved companies for help as needed without having to go through a formal bidding process, resulting in quicker and more reliable service for those in need, officials say.
> 
> The measure is intended as a last resort when the coast guard doesn't have enough icebreakers to respond, such as when one of its vessels has a mechanical breakdown.
> 
> Yet there are fears such a scenario will become increasingly common in the coming years as the coast guard's icebreaking fleet continues to get older — with no replacements on the horizon.
> 
> Officials stood by their aging vessels, noting the federal government has invested millions of dollars in the past few years to maintain and extend the lives of many of the coast guard's aging icebreakers.
> 
> "We have a very strong plan in place with scheduled and planned maintenance, refit and vessel life extensions to support the fleet renewal plan as we are moving forward with our assets," said assistant commissioner Julie Gascon.
> 
> "Our vessels are very capable and very reliable."
> 
> But the icebreakers, which are on average over 35 years old, have seen their share of problems in recent years — including one high-profile breakdown in January that left a ferry stuck in ice near Quebec City for four hours.
> 
> Concerns about the state of the fleet were also flagged in briefing notes to Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc back in 2016, where officials reported that 1,595 operational days had been lost due to breakdowns in 2013-14 alone.
> 
> The federal government's national shipbuilding strategy includes a new heavy icebreaker, but that vessel won't be ready until at least the mid-2020s, while work continues on plans for replacing the rest of the fleet.
> 
> "We've started consultations with industry and gone a long way already in analyzing what's available out there for different technologies that would benefit us for the long term," said Greg Lick, the coast guard's director-general for operations.
> 
> "The fleet-renewal plan is making good progress now in terms of its development. We don't have a specific timeline right now to share about when it will be completed. But we're well on our way toward doing that."
> 
> While Lick wouldn't dive into details, industry sources say the coast guard is undertaking a complete reassessment of exactly what types of ships it will need over the coming decades — a process that has already been going on for several years.
> 
> Questions include what to do with 10 vessels, some of whom can serve as medium and light icebreakers, that are supposed to be built by Vancouver-based Seaspan Shipbuilding after the heavy icebreaker is finished.
> 
> Those vessels were originally announced by the Harper government in 2013, at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion, and aren't slated for construction until the mid- to late-2020s.
> 
> In the meantime, the Trudeau government has been talking with Quebec shipyard Davie for the past two months about leasing several converted icebreakers to the coast guard as an interim option until full replacements are ready.
> 
> The two sides have yet to come to an agreement, however, in part because of a disagreement over whether one of the four icebreakers that Davie is offering can actually meet the coast guard's needs.
> 
> _By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press_


https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8354221-industry-to-help-coast-guard-with-icebreaking/


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well, that is scary: The Coast Guard is looking at what icebreaking they can get from the 10 vessels planned for Seaspan after the Diefenbaker is built. They are the OPV's, the patrol vessels that are supposed to replace the current fleet of fisheries/high sea SAR vessels, not be employed in planned/day-to-day ice breaking ops. 

Unless of course, the Coast Guard knows something we don't - like there won't be any fish to fish in our oceans by 2025 - so no need to patrol fisheries. ???


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Or they have determined that the OPVs won't sea keep safely enough to do fisheries patrols, offshore, and are looking for some way of employing the vessels?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

That would be a feat, since their actual design has not even been selected yet.

But even if you turn them into ice breakers to replace the current fleet, that still leaves the current patrol vessels to replace. Either way, one important part of the Coast Guard fleet gets to be 50 years old by the time its replaced. 

The original idea of the NSPS was continuous build by the selected yard, but in the case of the Coast Guard, the state of the fleet does not really allow that option for the River icebreakers fleet and patrol fleet. The Government has to bite the bullet and get both at the same time if it doesn't want to lose one of those capabilities - with the consequences for Canadian industry, be it export/intn'l trade or fishing (because if we can't patrol, don't think for a moment that other nations won't come scooping our fish).


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.

A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Turn your questions into statements, SKT, and I would say: Bingo! Hole in One! Got it!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Sorry- I misunderstood. I thought they were looking at re-rolling the ships they are currently building at Seaspan.
> 
> A fight between the Coast Guard and PSPC on what the priority should be? The Govt caught in the horns of a dilemma because it has delayed ship procurement for so long?



This is the big problem for NSPS, a good idea 20 years to late.


----------



## MarkOttawa

More on US angle:


> Coast Guard Leaders Are Swinging for the Fences
> 
> After years of bemoaning its insufficient budget levels, the Coast Guard is pushing for a major spending increase in fiscal year 2019.
> 
> In his recent State of the Coast Guard address, Commandant Adm. Paul Zukunft used a baseball analogy to explain the service’s new approach to seeking funding.
> 
> “I directed my senior leaders to abandon a … bunt stance when it comes to building our budget and approach the plate by swinging for the fences,” he said in his prepared remarks. “Seize the initiative.”
> 
> For 2019, the Coast Guard is requesting $11.7 billion, nearly $1 billion or 9 percent more than it requested for 2018. That amount is about $1 billion more than was enacted in 2017.
> 
> The spending request for its procurement, construction and improvements account jumped 58 percent, from $1.2 billion to $1.9 billion. About $1.5 billion would go toward new vessels including $750 million for detail design and construction of new polar icebreakers, according to a Coast Guard fact sheet. The service recently released to industry a request for proposals for a new icebreaker, with the first one slated for delivery in 2023. ...
> http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2018/4/2/coast-guard-leaders-are-swinging-for-the-fences



Poor CCG.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Compare costs of planned USCG icebreakers with the one from Seaspan planned for CCG (good luck with cost and delivery date):

1) USCG:



> ...
> _The following is the April 18, 2018 Congressional Research Service report, Coast Guard Polar Icebreaker Modernization: Background and Issues for Congress._
> 
> ...The Coast Guard wants to begin construction of the first new heavy polar icebreaker in FY2019 and have it enter service in 2023...
> 
> The acquisition cost of a new heavy polar icebreaker had earlier been estimated informally at roughly $1 billion, but the Coast Guard and Navy now believe that three heavy polar icebreakers could be acquired for a total cost of about $2.1 billion, or an average of about $700 million per ship. The first ship will cost more than the other two because it will incorporate design costs for the class and be at the start of the production learning curve for the class. An April 13, 2018, Government Accountability Office (GAO) report on the polar icebreaker program states that the Coast Guard has reduced its estimated cost for the first heavy polar icebreaker to less than $900 million, which would imply an average cost of something more than $600 million each for the second and third icebreakers...
> https://news.usni.org/2018/05/03/report-congress-coast-guard-icebreaker-program-2



2) CCG:



> ...
> [DFO 2017-18] *Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects*
> ...
> *Polar Icebreaker Project*
> ...
> 2021- Contract award for construction; and
> 2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker.
> 
> *Progress report and explanation of variances*: Federal Budgets 2008 and 2012 allocated funding for the procurement of Canada’s first polar icebreaker. Total funding of $1,297.8 million has been earmarked for the execution of this project...
> http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html



Poor Canada.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## YZT580

Don't see a huge difference.  Am I missing something?  The figure works out to around 1 billion U.S. and if you figure in the operating costs over the ship's life there doesn't appear to be much discrepancy


----------



## MarkOttawa

YZT580: USCG icebreakers work out, at US$700 million each, to C$900 million.  Whereas the one CCG ship is notionally priced at C$1.3 million (and most likely to cost more, by the way these are all just acquisition costs).

Makes no sense to build by Seaspan and probably could get much cheaper than in US from Finnish yard.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Colin P:  



> Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.



Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  .

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## jmt18325

Colin P said:
			
		

> Your assuming the US prices are based on reality, they have not built an icebreaker since the 90's and we have seen how well they have done on other programs.



It also assumes the same accounting method (a bad assumption).


----------



## YZT580

Accounting differences was the reason for my question.  But we can resolve the icebreaker impasse very quickly through a leasing arrangement with at least two options available.  With that problem postponed Seaspan can start work on the replenishment ships and get that on the way to being resolved and then re-schedule new ice breakers on their completion.  That is one solution and I am sure there are others.  The only hang up is getting Ottawa to actually make a decision instead of punting it into the future and with the re-incarnation of Mr. Dithers at the helm that is unlikely.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Colin P:
> 
> Same applies to our shipbuilding in spades  .
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



I think our program is farther along in the reality curve, however they have advantages of many yards already capable to build, where we worked hard to dismantle almost every yard that could build ships and now need to rebuild that capability.


----------



## Uzlu

> Canada now seeks only three converted icebreakers
> 
> Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC) is in negotiations with Federal Fleet Services and Chantier Davie for the conversion of three modern icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG), PSPC confirmed to Jane’s on 1 June.
> 
> PSPC had initially sought four of the ships.
> 
> Federal Fleet has been in negotiations with the Canadian government since January, after proposing its Project Resolute as a solution to replace the CCG’s icebreakers, which have been in service on average for 35 years or more. These icebreakers are plagued by breakdowns, reducing the number of days they are operational and causing numerous ice-related difficulties on the St Lawrence River during the winter.


http://www.janes.com/article/80612/canada-now-seeks-only-three-converted-icebreakers


----------



## Uzlu

> Feds close to deal with Davie for icebreakers
> 
> OTTAWA — The federal government is close to a deal with Davie Shipbuilding that would see the Quebec shipyard provide several used icebreakers to bolster the Canadian Coast Guard's own aging fleet.
> 
> While final details are still being worked out, sources have told The Canadian Press that an agreement is imminent after months of intense — and at times contentious — closed-door negotiations.
> 
> The pending deal represents a win for Davie and the Quebec government, both of which have been demanding more federal work for the shipbuilder after it laid off 800 workers at its shipyard in Levis late last year.
> 
> It is not, however, exactly what Davie originally proposed: the company wanted to convert three medium icebreakers and one heavy vessel and lease them to the coast guard, whose own fleet is nearing the end of its useful life.
> 
> The company will still do conversion work on the three medium icebreakers, sources say, but the coast guard will take full ownership of the vessels instead of leasing them.
> 
> The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.
> 
> The federal shipbuilding strategy does already include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.
> 
> "A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."
> 
> Diefenbaker, however, isn't due to be delivered until the mid-2020s, at the earliest.
> 
> Word of the pending deal comes in the face of even more bad news for the coast guard's existing icebreakers, which are on average more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days in recent years due to mechanical breakdowns.
> 
> The most recent headache came in late April, when CCGS Terry Fox ran aground near Bide Arm, N.L.
> 
> The vessel sailed back to St. John's under its own power, an official said, where repairs were conducted on two holes in its hull, but it was later determined that more work would be required to get it back into service.
> 
> That leaves the 49-year-old CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent as the coast guard's only heavy icebreaker until the Terry Fox is up and operational again, though coast guard commissioner Jeffery Hutchinson said the service could cover for it.
> 
> "It will be back in service as part of our Arctic program this summer," Hutchinson told a parliamentary committee on Tuesday, "and we're able to cover all Arctic requirements in our program by reallocating resources internally."
> 
> But coast guard officials have conceded for years that they need additional icebreakers to supplement their fleet, and suggested they could turn to novel solutions such as leasing vessels or hiring private companies to help them.
> 
> "We're stuck in this kind of limbo with the coast guard where their vessels keep getting longer in the tooth and what they need to do just keeps going up and up and up," said Huebert.
> 
> "There is a dire need for them getting some modernized icebreakers. No question about it."
> 
> The negotiations between the federal government and Davie have nonetheless been steeped in politics.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau surprised many, including the Canadian Coast Guard and Davie itself, when he announced the launch of talks while visiting Quebec City in January.
> 
> The announcement followed concerns about the current icebreaker fleet, but also an intense lobbying campaign by Davie as well as the Quebec government and federal opposition parties on the shipyard's behalf.
> 
> It also coincided with an RCMP investigation into allegations Vice-Admiral Mark Norman leaked cabinet secrets to Davie to keep the Liberals from cancelling a $700-million contract to provide the navy with an interim support ship.
> 
> Norman was suspended as the military's second-in-command last year and charged with breach of trust this past March. He has denied any wrongdoing and vowed to fight the charge in court.
> 
> Most of the work on the interim support ship was finished late last year, at which point Davie laid off 800 workers; the shipyard says it did not have enough work for them, but that it is hoping to hire some back for the icebreakers.
> 
> Davie initially proposed leasing icebreakers to the coast guard in April 2016, after acquiring the rights to four vessels that were destined for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until a downturn in the market.


https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/


----------



## Stoker

Uzlu said:
			
		

> https://www.insidehalton.com/news-story/8652564-feds-close-to-deal-with-davie-for-icebreakers/



Maybe now they'll stop their whining.


----------



## MarkOttawa

About time, note purchase (real cheap) not lease--a lot of Quebec provincial and federal politics pushing this now:



> Ottawa makes deal to buy three icebreakers for coast guard
> _Deal avoids major work slowdown, layoffs at the Davie shipyard ahead of Quebec provincial election_
> 
> The Liberal government has concluded a deal with a Quebec shipyard to purchase, through a sole-source contract, three medium icebreakers to relieve pressure on the Canadian Coast Guard's aging fleet.
> 
> The agreement struck with Chantier Davie of Levis, Que., which operates the Davie shipyard, was announced Friday [June 22] in a release by Public Services and Procurement Canada.
> 
> No dollar figure was included in the statement, but sources close to the negotiations said that between the purchase and modification phase, the _agreement could be worth just under $500 million_ [emphasis added].
> 
> Negotiations to acquire the vessels were launched in January after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau abruptly announced the plan in a Radio-Canada interview.
> 
> There has been growing concern in Quebec about not only the shipyard and its workforce of roughly 1,300, but about the coast guard's ability to break ice in the St. Lawrence River.
> 
> Competing shipyards will have two weeks to challenge the sole-source contract and demonstrate they can deliver ships with similar — or better — capabilities.
> 
> Analysis
> Why the Liberals really don't want to talk about leasing icebreakers
> 
> Aging icebreaker fleet raises concern in Quebec
> 
> When talks started with Davie, the federal government was looking to lease or buy four ships which would be converted from existing vessels. Those vessels had been intended for use in Alaska's offshore oil and gas industry until there was a downturn in the market.
> 
> The deal that was struck involves a straight-up purchase of three icebreakers, with the Davie yard set to complete a series of modifications, said the sources.
> Contract bound to raise questions
> 
> It's a significant deal on political, legal and corporate levels.
> 
> The agreement avoids a major work slowdown at the yard — and the resulting layoffs — ahead of a provincial election which will see the Liberal government of Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard fighting for its life.
> 
> The contract also is bound to raise questions about the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which was introduced by the former Conservative government and championed by the Liberals since they came to power in 2015.
> 
> The Davie shipyard was in bankruptcy when the strategy was announced — so it was excluded from the NSS, which has seen Ottawa form a special relationship with Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax and Seaspan of Vancouver. Irving and Seaspan are the go-to companies for federal ship construction.
> 
> Federal government looks to lease icebreakers from Quebec shipyard Davie
> 
> Quebec ports could lose business if aging icebreakers not replaced, documents warn
> 
> The _coast guard's new heavy icebreaker is supposed to be built by Seaspan, but the project is still years away from construction_ [emphasis added]...
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/coast-guard-icebreakers-davie-1.4718592



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Gov't news release:



> Canada to Acquire Three Interim [when buying them, not leasing?] Icebreakers
> ...
> The Government of Canada is committed to providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to keep Canadian waters safe, while supporting economic growth.
> 
> On behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, Public Services and Procurement Canada has issued an Advanced Contract Award Notice (ACAN) to Chantier Davie of Lévis, Quebec, for the acquisition and conversion of three medium commercial icebreakers.  This ensures a fair, competitive process allowing any supplier with a comparable option to also submit a proposal before a contract is awarded.
> 
> The ACAN confirms Canada’s intention to enter into a contract with Chantier Davie. Other interested suppliers have 15 calendar days to signal their interest in bidding for this contract, by submitting a “statement of capabilities” that meets the requirements laid out in the ACAN.
> 
> These ships would _provide interim capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, while replacement vessels  are being built under the National Shipbuilding Strategy_ [emphasis added--plural? only one planned, years away from delivery by Seaspan]. Icebreakers are essential to ensuring that Canadian ports remain open during Canada’s ice seasons, ensuring goods such as fresh produce and fuel are delivered safely...
> 
> *Quick facts*
> 
> This acquisition will consist of _purchasing a class of three existing Anchor Handling Tug Supply icebreakers_ [emphasis added, definition would be nice].
> 
> These ships will be used to backfill for Canadian Coast Guard vessels while they are undergoing maintenance, refit and vessel life extension.
> 
> These ships will conduct critical icebreaking duties for the Southern wintertime program and are to be deployed as needed in support of Arctic summertime programs.
> 
> The first ship will be put to immediate use for icebreaking during the upcoming 2018-2019 season...
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2018/06/canada-to-acquire-three-interim-icebreakers.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Swampbuggy

What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.


----------



## Uzlu

Swampbuggy said:
			
		

> What’s the issue with AIVIQ? It hasn’t been mentioned in any way since the PM announced his surprise.


There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.





> The two sides also remain far apart on the heavy icebreaker, which Davie has been pushing hard despite strong reticence from senior coast guard officials who say it does not meet their needs.
> 
> The federal shipbuilding strategy does include plans for one heavy icebreaker, the Canadian Coast Guard ship John G. Diefenbaker, which could explain the coast guard's hesitation, said University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert.
> 
> "A lot of effort went into the design of the Diefenbaker," said Huebert, who has worked extensively with the coast guard. "If I was the coast guard, I would be terrified that if I got the Davie ship, I would not get the Diefenbaker."


https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465


----------



## Swampbuggy

Uzlu said:
			
		

> There might not be anything wrong with the icebreaker.https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/feds-close-to-deal-with-quebec-shipyard-davie-for-coast-guard-icebreakers-1.3960465



I was under the impression that AIVIQ is more in line with TERRY FOX or LOUIS ST LAURENT and as such, doesn’t have the same capability as DIEFENBAKER. It should be complimentary to the heavy ice breaker, not a replacement for it. I guess I understand their fears, but it’s not like we couldn’t use more than one or two top tier icebreakers.


----------



## MarkOttawa

1) More on Davie's Aiviq here:
http://www.davie.ca/pdf/Aiviq.pdf

From a tweet:



>


https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

2) Will Finland's Arctia contest the sole-source to Davie within the 15-day ACAN window? CETA with EU implications? From January this year:



> Arctia Ltd. ready to support Canada\
> 
> The Finnish shipowner Arctia Ltd. is moving forward to support Canada in icebreaking and towing services. The company has responded to the Canadian Government’s Request for Information and Industry Consultation for Interim Icebreaking and Towing Capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, and continues to follow the tendering process. Arctia’s purpose-built icebreaker fleet is promptly available, and can serve the Canadian industry and Arctic communities within weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “We were quite surprised yesterday reading the news stating that negotiations will be launched with one interested supplier for the conversion and lease of existing supply vessels. We have understood that the open tender for interim icebreaking services is still open and does not cover any conversion costs“, states Tero Vauraste, the President and CEO of Arctia Ltd.
> 
> Arctia Ltd. participates in the Canadian Government’s tender for interim icebreaking solutions. The company is ready to charter its icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard and explore cooperative solutions to help Canada avoid the so-called icebreaker gap within the formal purchasing process. The Government’s public tender issued in November 2016 states that the Canadian Coast Guard may require additional icebreaking capacity provided by one (1) to five (5) icebreakers at various times over the next number of years.
> 
> “We have extensive experience in the North American Arctic. All our icebreakers have diesel-electric propulsion and they are designed specifically for challenging and long-lasting icebreaking operations. They need no conversion for operations in the Canadian Arctic. This is a clear advantage compared to our competitors. We are the only operator in the world that can provide multiple powerful heavy and medium heavy polar class icebreakers promptly and on a commercial basis“, Vauraste explains.
> 
> Arctia Ltd. is a Finnish shipowner specialized in icebreaking, ice management and towing. The company currently has eight icebreakers in its fleet, including IB Polaris, the first Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) powered icebreaker in the world. Finnish multipurpose icebreakers have been proven effective in the Canadian Arctic. Just this July, the Finnish MSV Nordica transited the Northwest Passage (NWP) from Vancouver, Canada, to Nuuk, Greenland, in 24 days with researchers and a Canadian Coast Guard officer on board. This transit set the record for the earliest crossing of the NWP. The Nordica now holds the records for both the earliest and latest season transits of the NWP.
> 
> Along with the Nordica, its sister vessel MSV Fennica has served in ice management tasks in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas in 2007 and from 2012 to 2015. Arctia’s converted IB Otso has worked on the north-eastern coast of Greenland...
> https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/11295-Arctia-Ltd-ready-to-support-Canada



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Uzlu

> Politics at play in major shipbuilding contract that could land in Quebec
> 
> The federal government is looking to a Quebec company for a major shipbuilding contract, but a competitor is questioning the backroom politics behind who gets the job.
> 
> The contract is to convert three used ships from Norway and the United States into icebreakers. Levis’ Davie Shipyards is vying for the contract.
> 
> “The only company in the world that can fit all these criteria is Davie,” said the company’s VP of Public Affairs Frederik Boisvert.
> 
> However, competing company Fednav, Canada’s largest ocean-going cargo shipper, said it wants to build several brand new icebreakers in Norway, where they said shipbuilding is more efficient.
> 
> “It’s about having built an assembly line effectively and perfecting something,” said Fednav CEO Paul Pathy.
> 
> Canada’s current fleet of icebreakers is aging and Pathy questioned the federal government’s practice of stretching the ships’ lifespan.
> 
> “Right now, there are no heavy icebreakers available because they’re all on layup because they’re so old,” he said. “They keep being renewed and renewed and renewed.”
> 
> The oft-ice clogged St. Lawrence River and the Great Lakes – St-Lawrence Seaway is the source of $35 billion a year in revenue and 225,000 jobs in Canada and the U.S., making the presence of icebreakers essential for the Canadian economy.
> 
> University of British Columbia professor Michael Byers said the government can’t ignore the benefits of building ships in Canada.
> 
> “The shipworkers here in Canada pay taxes, they buy homes, they buy cars, they buy groceries,” he said.
> 
> But Aaron Wudrick of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation said Ottawa must make decisions based on the best deal.
> 
> “We need to get the best icebreaker for the lowest price and not worry about where it’s being built,” he said.
> 
> The federal procurement ministry did not respond to requests for comment by deadline. A decision on the contract is expected on July 11.


https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politics-at-play-in-major-shipbuilding-contract-that-could-land-in-quebec-1.4005945


----------



## MarkOttawa

Sure could use those Davie-converted icebreakers, at very least--this old one (built 1985) off to help resupply USAF base at Thule, Greenland, amongst other things:



> Canadian Coast Guard Ship Samuel Risley departs for its first-ever Arctic mission
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard’s annual Arctic operational season is underway and includes a maiden voyage to the Arctic by the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Samuel Risley.
> 
> CCGS Samuel Risley departed Quebec City today with 25 officers and crew on board.
> 
> Their _first task will be to support the annual resupply mission for the United States Air Base at Thule Greenland.   “My crew and I will be doing the Operation Pacer Goose mission_ [emphasis added].  We are very much looking forward to seeing and working on the rugged west coast of Greenland, a place few people ever get to experience,” said Captain John Cork, who is in command of CCGS Samuel Risley for the first month of its eight week Arctic mission.  “This is a wonderful opportunity for the crew, and personally I am thrilled to have this as my last assignment before I retire after 34 years with the Canadian Coast Guard”.
> 
> 1200 kilometres north of the Arctic Circle, Thule is locked in by ice about nine months out of the year.  Icebreaking service is needed to allow for a rapid resupply of food, fuel, construction materials and cargo.  After Thule CCGS Samuel Risley will transit to the eastern Canadian Arctic and the waters of Baffin Bay, the Hudson Strait and northern Hudson Bay.
> 
> Captain Signe Gotfredsen notes her crew members are truly looking forward to providing Coast Guard service in the north.  Captain Gotfredsen will assume command of the ship during the second half of this mission. “For a number of the crew, this will be their first time plying Arctic waters, so there is a sense of exploration onboard,”  said Captain Gotfredsen.  “Some of our preparation time has been spent on training including Indigenous Engagement, helicopter slinging operations and environmental response.”
> 
> CCGS Samuel Risley _joined the Coast Guard fleet in the fall of 1985 [2000 t. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:380038/mmsi:316001890/imo:8322442/vessel:SAMUEL_RISLEY ]. During most of the navigational season the ship operates out of the Canadian Coast Guard base in Parry Sound Ontario. The vessel is multi-tasked and in addition to its icebreaking and aids to navigation duties on the Great Lakes it has also served on Canada’s east coast_ [emphasis added].
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard’s Arctic operational season will run into late November, providing extended vessel presence in the Arctic under investments from the $1.5-billion Oceans Protection Plan.
> 
> CCGS Samuel Risley joins other coast guard ships serving the Arctic this year including CCGS Amundsen, CCGS Martha L. Black, CCGS Pierre Radisson, CCGS Sir Wilfrid Laurier, CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent and CCGS Henry Larsen.
> http://www.manitoulin.ca/2018/07/12/canadian-coast-guard-ship-samuel-risley-departs-for-its-first-ever-arctic-mission/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

All of those ships were in service when I joined in 1990 and will still be active when I retire 2019........


----------



## MarkOttawa

CCG can only look on in envy--but this is only authorization, Congress still has to appropriate funds:



> National Defense [Authorization] Act has heavy Arctic focus
> 
> ...The U.S. Coast Guard has only two [icebreakers]--and one of them is 10 years beyond its intended use.
> 
> The bill passed Wednesday authorizes six new icebreakers.
> 
> “For the first time ever, the NDAA includes an authorization of up to six heavy, polar-class icebreakers for the U.S. Coast Guard – something that is long overdue,” said Senator Dan Sullivan (R - Alaska)...
> 
> Authorization of Six Heavy Polar-Class Icebreakers: The FY19 NDAA includes a provision secured by Senator Sullivan to authorize up to six heavy, polar-class icebreakers for the U.S. Coast Guard. In addition, this provision expresses Congress’ belief that the first new icebreaker should be delivered no later than Fiscal Year 2023, the next two by FY 2026, and the final three by FY 2029...
> http://www.ktva.com/story/38793068/national-defense-act-has-heavy-arctic-focus



Useful cautionary tweet:



> Rob Levinson
> ‏@levinsor
> 
> A plea. Please stop referring to the NDAA as a spending bill. I realize that the difference between authorization and appropriation is pretty wonky but it does matter. The NDAA matters for policy but many things that get authorized don't necessarily get funded.
> https://twitter.com/levinsor/status/1025004264425435136



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

The Aiviq has been discussed elsewhere in the thread, but it doesn't look like the other three "new" icebreakers have been mentioned.

Vidar viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidar_Viking

Tor viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_Viking

Baldor viking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balder_Viking

The Norwegians build a good ship, and Viking is a reputable operator, so they should be good boats, but I hope they're getting a good price, as all three are pushing 20 years old!


----------



## MarkOttawa

Well, it's Canada--why buy new (built here at stupid price when one could buy abroad) rather than refurbish? Cf. RAAF Hornets, eh?

Too silly. And all politics all the time and the public/voters/media do not care.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Xylric

My grandfather's grandfather was originally employed at a Royal Navy shipyard somewhere in Scotland, and moved to Nova Scotia once those shut down. The yards he was a shipwright for after he arrived in Canada were at one time the largest in Canada. He would be most put out to know they're pretty much sitting idle these days - even my grandfather was, but that's probably because he was *from* the town surrounding them.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Official release--finally contract with Davie for three icebreaking ship conversions--if vessels are capable and have serious life in service then sure looks a lot cheaper and more effective than doing all the building here:



> Government of Canada awards contract to enhance Canadian Coast Guard icebreaking capability, securing middle class jobs in Quebec
> ...
> August 10, 2018 – Lévis (Quebec) – Public Services and Procurement Canada
> 
> The Government of Canada is committed to providing the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment it needs to carry out its important work, while providing economic opportunities for the Canadian marine sector. The purchase of three medium commercial icebreakers will help to ensure continuity of service for Coast Guard clients and the safe passage of marine traffic through Canada’s waterways.
> 
> Following a fair, open and transparent process that included extensive industry engagement, Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, has awarded a $610-million contract to Chantier Davie, of Lévis, Quebec for the acquisition of three icebreakers and work to prepare the first ship for service in the Canadian Coast Guard.
> 
> Further costs will be known once the Government of Canada has examined the vessels and determined what work is required to prepare them for service.
> 
> This contract will help to secure up to 200 well-paying middle class jobs at Chantier Davie.
> 
> The first vessel is expected to begin operations for the upcoming icebreaking season, beginning in December 2018. The second and third vessels will be converted, refit and available to support Coast Guard programs by the summer of 2019 and the winter of 2019-2020, respectively.
> 
> This contract follows an Advance Contract Award Notice that was issued on June 22, 2018...
> 
> [Tee hee] These ships will supplement the Coast Guard’s existing fleet while they undergo refits and repairs. They will conduct critical missions such as icebreaking duties for the Southern wintertime program and will be deployed as needed in support of Arctic summertime programs...
> https://www.canada.ca/en/public-services-procurement/news/2018/08/government-of-canada-awards-contract-to-enhance-canadian-coast-guard-icebreaking-capability-securing-middle-class-jobs-in-quebec.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## tomahawk6

Saw this vessel online and thought it might be a nice addition and it has a helo deck..

http://www.workboatsinternational.com/ice-classed-antarctic-supply-vessel-for-sale-asv3647.html  

Built:
1986 / UK Ferguson

Class:
BV Ice Class A1 Super / Special Service
LOA:
65.5
LBP:
58.33
Beam:
12.80
Depth:
5.35
Draft:
4.78
Main Engines:
2 x Miirlees Blackstone 8MB275 Marine Diesel Engines
Power:
2 x 2,300 kW
Auxiliary Engines:
3 x 300 kW Caterpillar 3408
Propulsion:
2 x Variable Pitch Propellers
Thruster:
1 x 500 BHP Bow Thruster
Maximum Speed:
14.2 knots
Crane:
swl 32 t

Rear A Frame:
20 Ton
Passenger capacity:
50 persons in 13 cabins
Crew:
5 Officers / 12 Total
Aviation Facilities:
Helideck for Lama or Ecureuil type Helicopters

DECK SPACE
Cargo Deck:
320 m2
Helideck:
162 m2 | Access to
Cargo Deck:
10.5 m x 3.7 m | Over Cargo
Deck:
160 m2
Price: Best Offers ( Can Guide Named Buyers)
Location: South Pacific


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Official release--finally contract with Davie for three icebreaking ship conversions--if vessels are capable and have serious life in service then sure looks a lot cheaper and more effective than doing all the building here:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



It's a good start, but they already have half their lives well lived. However, since about six River icebreakers need replacements, they can stop the gap before three new ones can be bought and come in service (about 12 to 15 years if you start the design and contracting process now) to replace the three oldest ones on hand and then continue up to six to replace those stop gap ones over the following six to eight years. This way, you would replace the River fleet in eighteen to twenty years with no icebreaker getting over the age of forty and most being replaced at around age 35. That would be an incredible achievement for the Canadian government.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Some (all?) for Davie? What the Conservative gov't allocated to Seaspan in 2013, to be built some never never land day (later was decided the one polar icebreaker would follow the two JSS--that icebreaking vessel now supposedly mid-2020s):



> Canadian Coast Guard Shocker – Ten (maybe) New Serious Vessels
> ...
> "VANCOUVER, British Columbia, October 7, 2013 – The Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Public Works and Government Services, joined by the Honourable James Moore, Minister of Industry and Regional Minister for British Columbia, today announced that Vancouver Shipyards will be building up to 10 additional large non-combat ships [backgrounder at link] for the Canadian Coast Guard fleet at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion [that's $330 million each, people)...
> 
> This significant investment will enable the Coast Guard to acquire up to five Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked Vessels and up to five Offshore Patrol Vessels…"
> 
> ...Let’s just hope things proceed fairly smoothly from now on [SEEN NO MOVEMENT SINCE].
> https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/10/07/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-shocker-ten-maybe-new-serious-vessels/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## chrisf

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Saw this vessel online and thought it might be a nice addition and it has a helo deck..
> 
> Built:
> 1986 / UK Ferguson



It's 32 years old.

30 years is pretty much the end of reliable service life for any ocean going vessel.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Anglophone Canadian media pretty much ignore CCG procurements compared to those of CAF--even the, gasp, sole-source contract to Davie for three icebreaker conversions.  So far both

1) CBC 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ottawa-will-allow-quebec-s-davie-shipyard-to-bid-on-national-shipbuilding-plan-contracts-1.4780836

and

2) CTV
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/610-million-contract-awarded-to-convert-icebreakers-at-davie-shipyard-1.4048440

treat the acquisition as simply a Quebec story, not a national one.  And have seen nothing in print media.

Lack of serious media interest sure allows CCG procurements, including effective sole-sourcing of two new helicopter buys (more here https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/04/11/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guards-new-medium-lift-helos-sole-sourced-to-bell-canada/ ), to escape the sort of controversy that almost inevitably follows those of CAF.  

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Sale of the three icebreaking ships to Davie confirmed--note price in US$, so far gov't has said it will be paying Davie C$610 million:



> Viking Supply [Norwegian-owned] confirms sale of icebreaking AHTS trio to Canada
> 
> Confirming the identities of the three vessels that Chantier Davie, Lévis, Quebec, is to convert to icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard (see earlier story) Viking Supply Ships AS, a wholly owned subsidiary of Sweden's Viking Supply Ships AB (VSS) said today that it has sold its three icebreakers, Tor Viking, Balder Viking and Vidar Viking to Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada.
> 
> In its fleet listings, Viking Supply Ships describes each of the ships as "Combined AHTS & Ice-breaker with DNV Ice-10 notation. Capable of operations in harsh environment offshore regions and Arctic/Sub-Arctic regions."
> 
> _Impact on net result of the sale is estimated at $274 million_ [emphasis added] and will be booked in Q3. The transaction is expected to close by the end of August...
> 
> "The offshore supply market was very disappointing throughout the first half year, and the very weak market has caused both fixture rates and utilization to remain on unsatisfactory levels," says the company...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=30090:viking-supply-confirms-sale-of-icebreaking-ahts-trio-to-canada&Itemid=257



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## garb811

Colour me confused but...

When I read this in the original release:


> Following a fair, open and transparent process that included extensive industry engagement, Public Services and Procurement Canada, on behalf of the Canadian Coast Guard, has awarded a $610-million contract to Chantier Davie, of Lévis, Quebec for the *acquisition* of three icebreakers and work to prepare the first ship for service in the Canadian Coast Guard.


I interpreted the $610mil to be inclusive of the cost of the ships proper via Davie.

Yet the article just posted by Mark states the vessels had been sold to "Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada."

So, I take it this means the $610mil to Davies is for overhaul/fit up etc only and the Govt has bought the ships direct, making the actual cost in the vicinity of $1 billion, once currency conversion is factored in?


----------



## chrisf

We may be over paying a touch...

Usual day rate for a vessel like this in today's market is going to be maybe $20-40k CND.

Even on the very generous end of $40k,  that's about $14.5 million per year to charter a decent size anchor handler.

I hope this price is including substantial life extension upfront...

A crane and a hang are not really that expensive.


----------



## YZT580

But it keeps Davies in business


----------



## MarkOttawa

Over to you, Colin P. on Seaspan's OFSVs for CCG:



> Shipbuilding program hits snag as inspection finds defective welds in hull
> 
> 'Defects ... are far from uncommon in shipbuilding,' says Seaspan spokesman
> 
> The first civilian ship built under the federal government's marquee shipbuilding program will have portions of its hull re-welded because an inspection has uncovered a series of defective joints, CBC News has learned.
> 
> Up to 44 metres of welds on the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Sir John Franklin — which was launched only last December and has not yet entered service — will be repaired before it is handed over to the federal government early next year.
> 
> It is one of three offshore fisheries science vessels being constructed by Seaspan in Vancouver. All three vessels were found to have the same defect — meaning all three will have to be re-welded in spots before entering service.
> 
> The company is still investigating how the faults happened, with the help of outside experts.
> 
> But officials downplayed the significance, saying welding problems occur on all projects and the extent of the overhaul represents just under five per cent of the joints on the Sir John Franklin.
> 
> "While defects are unwelcome, they are far from uncommon in shipbuilding," said Tim Page, vice-president of government relations at Seaspan.
> 
> It is a setback for the $687 million program and it comes as the federal government considers a "refresh" of its shipbuilding policy.
> 
> It also could provide new ammunition for critics who have argued the federal government should be buying more of its ships offshore at more experienced construction yards...
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/shipbuilding-coast-guard-welds-1.4788322



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I am happy that they found them now and not later like almost every other government vessel. I can think of 3 vessel types where the welding was so bad the initial contracts were cancelled after the first or 2nd built, 70' Point class, 41' utility class, 47' Cape class cutters. Then there was the Landing/fuel barges, some of the worst welds I have every seen on vessel and one of the poorest designs as well. It seems like Seaspan has stepped up and committed to repair it and likely will go after the manufacturer of the welding machine if the problem can be traced back to them. Embarrassing for sure, I wish it had not happened, but I am pleased the inspection process is good enough to catch it. 44m of welds sound like a lot, but it's not. A 10x10m compartment could easily have 96m of welds if not more. 
From the article; 

"will be repaired before it is handed over to the federal government early next year."The microscopic welding cracks initially were discovered three months ago on one of the science vessels, which is still under construction in North Vancouver."

snip
"A coast guard team monitoring construction flagged the issue as part of a detailed review, the company acknowledged.

It was spotted after the first two ships, including the Franklin, had passed their initial inspections. Subsequent retesting on all three vessels turned up the same fault.

The defects were traced to a semi-automated welding system installed as part of the shipyard's multi-million dollar upgrade."


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Davie reports the Viking vessels have arrived


----------



## Uzlu

> 'Interim' icebreakers to be used for decades
> 
> OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard says three "interim" icebreakers that were recently purchased without a competition will be used for the next 15 to 20 years.
> 
> Coast guard officials revealed the timeframe in interviews with The Canadian Press while playing down concerns about the state of their aging fleet — and the challenges in building replacements.
> 
> The government in August agreed to sole-sourcing the purchase of three used icebreakers from Davie Shipbuilding for $610 million, saying a stop-gap was needed until replacements could be built.
> 
> The deal represented a win for the Quebec-based shipyard, which had been lobbying hard for additional federal work, and should ease pressure on the coast guard's icebreaking fleet.
> 
> The coast guard's existing vessels are on average more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days over the past few years due to mechanical breakdowns.
> 
> Yet there are no immediate plans to replace them; the government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding plan includes only one new heavy icebreaker, which won't be ready until the next decade.
> 
> Deputy Commissioner Andy Smith said the coast guard is instead in the midst of extending the life of its current fleet another 20 years — during which it will rely on the Davie ships to fill any gaps.
> 
> "The icebreakers that we recently purchased were envisioned to backfill behind those various ships as we put them into a refit or an extended maintenance period," Smith said in an interview.
> 
> "And we have mapped that out over 20 years."
> 
> Assistant Commissioner Mario Pelletier confirmed that time period in a separate interview, saying: "I would expect that we're going to have them for 15, 20 years.
> 
> "The urgent need is just to make sure we do have a surge capacity to backfill when those ships come out of service," he added.
> 
> While few would argue the need for additional icebreakers, the timeline has nevertheless resulted in fresh criticism of the country's procurement system — and questions about the shipbuilding plan.
> 
> The federal government previously purchased "interim" icebreakers in the 1980s and those vessels are still in use, said Rob Huebert, an expert on the Arctic at the University of Calgary.
> 
> That, plus the absence of any real plan to replace the majority of the coast guard's icebreakers, leads Huebert to believe the three Davie ships will eventually become part of the permanent fleet.
> 
> "What's going to happen is we have been overworking our three medium icebreakers and those three (Davie ships) will replace them even though no one is saying they're replacing them," he said.
> 
> The two Canadian Coast Guard officials both insisted that the Davie deal would not undercut the shipbuilding plan, through which Vancouver Shipyards is building several coast guard ships.
> 
> Those include three fisheries-science ships, an ocean-science vessel and a heavy icebreaker, in that order. Two naval support ships will be built between the ocean-science vessel and the icebreaker.
> 
> But defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute wondered whether calling the Davie deal an "interim" measure was intended to sidestep the plan — and any legal trouble.
> 
> Either way, he said, the arrangement only underscores many of the enduring issues facing Canada's troubled procurement system and the long amount of time it takes to buy new equipment.
> 
> "If they're defining an interim period being up to 20 years, only in Canada is that considered an interim basis," he said, noting that the shipbuilding plan is already years behind schedule.
> 
> "Only in a country where you run things for 40-plus years is two decades a temporary solution."
> 
> Smith and Pelletier said the current coast guard fleet is nonetheless in good shape and that there are positive signs of progress at Vancouver Shipbuilding, despite some hiccups.
> 
> Those included a welding problem discovered on the three fisheries-science ships that has pushed back delivery of the first of those vessels until next year.
> 
> The design and budget for the ocean-science ship also remains up in the air, while the construction schedule for the navy support ships and heavy icebreaker remain in limbo.
> 
> "It's really a dynamic time as we look to regrow the whole ecosystem of shipbuilding in this country, and they are in various stages of design and construction," Smith said of the challenges.
> 
> "So that whole ecosystem is being rebuilt."


https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/news-story/8982113--interim-icebreakers-to-be-used-for-decades/


----------



## YZT580

Interim doesn't just apply to ships either in our government's method of working.  In 1969 I can recall attending meetings in temporary building no. 4 (yes that was its name).  Temp. 4 was put up during WW2 and intended only for the duration.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Let's create a "new zone" that does not have any resources. Currently all the resources (ships and crews) come from the South and have tasks down there as well. Must be an election coming....

https://panow.com/article/796062/canadian-coast-guard-increase-focus-arctic-new-zone


----------



## Kirkhill

The most infamous "interim" measure of all

http://wartimecanada.ca/document/world-war-i/taxation/income-tax-1917


----------



## MarkOttawa

On. And on. And on:



> Coast guard looks to squeeze more years from oldest ship
> _55-year-old science vessel CCGS Hudson will be around for at least 5 more years_
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard plans to squeeze another five years of service, and maybe more, out of the oldest vessel in its fleet.
> 
> The 55-year-old science vessel Hudson [details at CCG https://inter-j01.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fdat/vessels/71 ] is one more example of the uncertainty surrounding Canada's shipbuilding program.
> 
> CCGS Hudson was supposed to be replaced as early as 2014 as part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy. But the project to build the replacement at Vancouver's Seaspan shipyard still has no budget, confirmed construction start date or timeline for completion.
> 
> In the meantime, the Hudson is now expected to be in service until 2023 and possibly longer.
> 
> "At least, yes," said Mario Pelletier, the coast guard's deputy commissioner. "As we get closer to those dates we will look and … see if we need the ship around for a bit longer. We'll look at the work that needs to be done."
> 
> The goal, he said, is to keep the Hudson in operation until a new offshore oceanographic science vessel is delivered...
> 
> The coast guard is hoping a planned refit this winter will allow the Hudson to obtain regulatory approvals to keep it in service for another five-year cycle.
> 
> "What we are doing is resetting the clock and make sure she can last for the next five years, safely and reliably," Pelletier said.
> 
> Replacing the Hudson has been a sliding target since a new science vessel was promised by the Harper government in 2011.
> 
> By _2013, coast guard officials were predicting a replacement would be sailing in 2017. The cost then was estimated at $144 million.
> 
> The most recent federal government update on the project has a new vessel in service by late 2021 or early 2022. The budget, pegged at $331 million, is under review_ [emphasis added]...
> 
> David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute is not surprised by the developments.
> 
> He said the timing of the Hudson replacement was thrown further into doubt earlier this year when Ottawa announced construction would soon begin on the Royal Canadian Navy joint-support vessel at Seaspan.
> 
> Seaspan was supposed to build the new offshore oceanographic science vessel first.
> 
> "It would seem the joint-support ship and the navy project is a bit more mature and ready to go," said Perry.
> 
> "If they are saying they are not expecting it (Hudson replacement) until 2023-24, that may mean it will come after the joint-support ships...
> 
> The coast guard said construction of the new vessel is expected to begin in 2019.
> 
> "The build contract is being negotiated which will determine the project schedule and ultimately the delivery date," Benoit Mayrand of coast guard communications said in a statement.
> 
> Nicolas Insley, Seaspan communications manager, added the contract will determine the cost and timeline for the vessel...
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-vessel-hudson-refit-replacement-shipbuilding-strategy-1.4887361



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Atlantic Eagle is now at the CCG Dock in Victoria, not sure how they plan to man it, if they don't use a Master from out here, then they need a pilot everywhere she goes.


----------



## chrisf

Did they paint the Eagle red?

The Raven is still Atlantic Towing orange, but they added a big white coast Guard style stripe.

Not sure what the cradles on deck were for, but there were extra bollards welded on either side of the stern roller for the canal passage.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

adds 2.3 kts......  8)


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Atlantic Eagle is now at the CCG Dock in Victoria, not sure how they plan to man it, if they don't use a Master from out here, then they need a pilot everywhere she goes out.



Doesn't have to be the master, as long as there's a qualified pilot on board for the harbour.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

yes but if they start patrolling this coast, then they need a qualified Master and since none of Irving guys work out here that I am aware of, they need a new Master, as they could not afford a pilot 24/7.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> yes but if they start patrolling this coast, then they need a qualified Master and since none of Irving guys work out here that I am aware of, they need a new Master, as they could not afford a pilot 24/7.



Doesn't need to be the master though, could be another officer or could be a coast Guard officer attached to the vessel.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If it meets the Pilotage regs, the exemption applies to Master not to the ship. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1270/FullText.html

(3) Subject to subsections (4) to (6), the Authority may waive compulsory pilotage in respect of a ship under 10 000 gross tons if all persons in charge of the deck watch

    (a) hold certificates of competency of the proper class and category of voyage for the ship that are required by Part 2 of the Marine Personnel Regulations;

    (b) have served either 150 days of service in the preceding 18 months or 365 days of service in the preceding 60 months, of which 60 days must have been served in the preceding 24 months, at sea as a person in charge of the deck watch on one or more ships on voyages in the region or engaged in the coastal trade; and

    (c) have served as persons in charge of the deck watch in the compulsory pilotage area for which the waiver is sought on one or more occasions during the preceding 24 months.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> If it meets the Pilotage regs, the exemption applies to Master not to the ship. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1270/FullText.html




I may be mistaken but, not a waiver, my understanding is the master doesn't need to be the one holding the pilots license, you just need a licensed pilot on board.

I could well be out to lunch, but I'm fairly certain I sailed on a vessel a while back with a foreign master and a local chief officer, for that reason (then again maybe we had a waiver, but the chief officer held a masters ticket and a pilots license)

And apparently the cradles on the Ravens deck were for a pair of new 40' life boats being transported to the west coast.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I won't call myself an expert, though this subject has come up with First Nation Consultations due to waivers given to US tugs, two types of waivers, one for not having a pilot onboard on a regular trip and another for permission to seek sheltered piloted waters without a pilot, a US tug just had to seek that and the head of the Pilotage Authority was criticized for giving it to the tug, although it was the right thing to do at the time. I have to talk with the Pilots about something else, I ask them about this as I am interested as well.


40' lifeboats? Any pictures?


----------



## chrisf

Sorry, no pictures.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> 40' lifeboats? Any pictures?



No, saw pictures of them being loaded on facebook, but cant find the post now.

The new "bay" class lifeboats, i assume for the west coast.

Probably stopped in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia to pick them up enroute to Panama.


----------



## Swampbuggy

Colin P said:
			
		

> I won't call myself an expert, though this subject has come up with First Nation Consultations due to waivers given to US tugs, two types of waivers, one for not having a pilot onboard on a regular trip and another for permission to seek sheltered piloted waters without a pilot, a US tug just had to seek that and the head of the Pilotage Authority was criticized for giving it to the tug, although it was the right thing to do at the time. I have to talk with the Pilots about something else, I ask them about this as I am interested as well.
> 
> 
> 40' lifeboats? Any pictures?



From J.D. Irving Twitter feed...


----------



## Swampbuggy

D’oh!! Stupid me...


----------



## chrisf

CCGS Penant Bay's first rescue was CCGS Harp... hopefully they have more luck with them on the west coast!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

looks like they just used her to save shipping costs


----------



## Uzlu

> Used icebreakers to cost more than advertised: documents
> 
> OTTAWA — The federal government is planning to spend at least $827 million on three used icebreakers for the Canadian Coast Guard — 30 per cent more than advertised.
> 
> In August, the government said the three icebreakers would cost $610 million when it announced its plan to buy them from Quebec-based Davie Shipyard without a competition.
> 
> Officials say the additional $217 million, revealed in new budget documents, will cover tariffs, brokerage fees, engineering work and other costs to get the vessels up and running.
> 
> The icebreakers, billed as a stopgap but which officials have admitted will be used for up to 20 years, are only the latest vessels that will cost the government more than expected.
> 
> The Defence Department revealed last week that the federal government will pay $800 million to build a sixth Arctic patrol vessel at Irving Shipyards in Halifax, which is twice as much as each of the other five vessels cost.
> 
> Officials are also reviewing the costs of several other shipbuilding projects in Halifax and Vancouver, including new science vessels for the coast guard.


https://ipolitics.ca/2018/11/13/used-icebreakers-to-cost-more-than-advertised-documents/


----------



## MarkOttawa

Earlier:



> Purchase of three icebreakers turns Canada's August trade surplus into a deficit
> 
> The summertime purchase of three ships from Sweden has wiped out Canada's healthy trade surplus for August and replaced it with a deficit, Statistics Canada said Friday.
> 
> The agency made the revision to the August trade figures as it accounted for a $600-million acquisition of three icebreakers late in the month.
> 
> The $526-million trade surplus initially reported for August now shows a $551-million deficit. The change represents a swing in the trade balance of more than $1 billion.
> 
> Behind the August revision was a $981-million increase in Canada's imports.
> 
> "Most of this revision was due to the import of three high value ships, which were reported after the publication of August data," the agency said of the transaction, which on its own added $598 million to the monthly import number.
> 
> "Three icebreakers were imported from Sweden at the end of August."
> 
> Statistics Canada says smaller revisions to the monthly numbers are common because purchases sometimes come in after the publication of the data. The agency also made upward revisions in August in other categories, including about $100 million for crude oil imports and $100 million for imports of aircraft-related goods.
> 
> Last month, the Canadian Coast Guard said three interim icebreakers had been purchased for use over the next 15 to 20 years. The government agreed to buy three used icebreakers from Quebec-based Davie Shipbuilding for $610 million.
> 
> On average, the existing coast guard ships are more than 35 years old and have lost hundreds of operational days over the past few years due to mechanical breakdowns...
> https://www.estevanmercury.ca/purchase-of-three-icebreakers-turns-canada-s-august-trade-surplus-into-a-deficit-1.23484863



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## garb811

Police confirm vandalism after Coast Guard ship tumbled into water in N.S. 



> A Canadian Coast Guard ship is partially submerged in water at a shipyard in Sambro, N.S., after falling from its secured cradle in a case Halifax police are investigating as suspected vandalism.
> 
> The Coast Guard tweeted late Saturday morning that the CCGS Corporal McLaren had released from the cradle at the shipyard and then slid down the slip into the water.
> 
> The vessel is at the shipyard for a refit.
> ...


----------



## blacktriangle

CCGS Corporal McLaren M.M.V. 

I'll be interested to see the motivation behind this. I hope they catch and throw the book at whoever was involved.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Progress from Davie:



> Canadian Coast Guard prepares for first Chantier Davie icebreaker
> 
> he first of three icebreakers converted by shipbuilder Chantier Davie is scheduled to enter the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) service by the beginning of December.
> 
> The ex-Vidar Viking icebreaker was floated out of Davie's Champlain drydock on 13 November with a fresh coat of paint in CCG colours.
> 
> The Canadian government originally announced the CAD610 million (USD462 million) contract on 10 August after concluding Davie’s proposal to convert three civilian medium icebreakers would meet the CCG’s urgent capability gap.
> 
> “The conversion works on the first icebreaker have been minimal – mostly painting – since this vessel needs to begin operations soon for the upcoming icebreaking season to add immediate capability to the Canadian Cost Guard,” Frédérik Boisvert, vice-president of Public Affairs for Chantier Davie, told Jane’s .
> https://www.janes.com/article/84829/canadian-coast-guard-prepares-for-first-chantier-davie-icebreaker



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Paint, a few secure radio's and mandated bilingual manuals and posters regarding the use of gender specific pronouns. Plus ring posts in the officer cabins so the graduates of the college can put their ring there at night.


----------



## CBH99

I know most of the work being done is painting & ensuring all systems are working properly, but Davie really is doing an excellent job on their PR.

If I remember correctly, MV Asterix was slightly ahead of schedule & on budget.  And now, they'll have an operational ice breaker going to the CCG shortly after the contract was announced, and right when the CCG needs one.


While they don't have the same challenges as Irving in terms of designing & building brand new ships from scratch (AOPS) -- they've done an excellent job on the PR front as being efficient & able to fulfill contracts without the major BS delays & constant complaining from Irving.


----------



## Stoker

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I know most of the work being done is painting & ensuring all systems are working properly, but Davie really is doing an excellent job on their PR.
> 
> If I remember correctly, MV Asterix was slightly ahead of schedule & on budget.  And now, they'll have an operational ice breaker going to the CCG shortly after the contract was announced, and right when the CCG needs one.
> 
> 
> While they don't have the same challenges as Irving in terms of designing & building brand new ships from scratch (AOPS) -- they've done an excellent job on the PR front as being efficient & able to fulfill contracts without the major BS delays & constant complaining from Irving.



Yes because any screw up will jeopardize further work. The reason why Asterix was on-time was that a major section (accommodations) was built offshore in Finland.


----------



## dapaterson

So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?


----------



## Stoker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?



Sure....., politically it will never happen


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So.. you're saying that if we want it on time and on budget, we should buy offshore?



No. What the Chief is saying is that when it comes to anything Davie Shipbuilding, he has a burr up his ... proverbial. That's OK! I've got the same burr in reverse ... against most Irving products and in favour of Davie. To each his own!

However, the accommodation block was NOT a major section. It represented only 15% of the overall work. And if you consider then that it needs to be built in Finland, then moved to a barge and slowly towed to Canada over a near four weeks period, you wonder what time saving there was.

In fact the time saving had nothing to do with the actual type of work but with the fact that the Finnish company who assembles those accommodation modules for inside the block has developed a technique that is used in the cruise ship building industry. That Finnish company agreed (and has since acted accordingly) to open a plant on the Davie premises to build such accommodation modules in North America and transfer the technological knowledge to local workers.

As it turns out, building the facility in Levis, then selecting and training a full North American crew then doing the job would have exceeded the timeline.So, it was decided that the module would be built at there Finnish company facility, with 50% Quebec labourers on the job there to learn the technique and bring it back home. It was not major nor was it because otherwise it would be "impossible" to do it on time and within budget.

Right now, the accommodation subsidiary company is operating in Quebec, at a low rate granted, but still, and if the government had picked up building Obelix, her accommodation block would have been built, just as fast, in Levis, and without the extra delay of towing it to Canada.


----------



## Stoker

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> No. What the Chief is saying is that when it comes to anything Davie Shipbuilding, he has a burr up his ... proverbial. That's OK! I've got the same burr in reverse ... against most Irving products and in favour of Davie. To each his own!
> 
> However, the accommodation block was NOT a major section. It represented only 15% of the overall work. And if you consider then that it needs to be built in Finland, then moved to a barge and slowly towed to Canada over a near four weeks period, you wonder what time saving there was.
> 
> In fact the time saving had nothing to do with the actual type of work but with the fact that the Finnish company who assembles those accommodation modules for inside the block has developed a technique that is used in the cruise ship building industry. That Finnish company agreed (and has since acted accordingly) to open a plant on the Davie premises to build such accommodation modules in North America and transfer the technological knowledge to local workers.
> 
> As it turns out, building the facility in Levis, then selecting and training a full North American crew then doing the job would have exceeded the timeline.So, it was decided that the module would be built at there Finnish company facility, with 50% Quebec labourers on the job there to learn the technique and bring it back home. It was not major nor was it because otherwise it would be "impossible" to do it on time and within budget.
> 
> Right now, the accommodation subsidiary company is operating in Quebec, at a low rate granted, but still, and if the government had picked up building Obelix, her accommodation block would have been built, just as fast, in Levis, and without the extra delay of towing it to Canada.



Wow I figured it wouldn't take long for you to chime in and thanks for putting words in my mouth. For the record Asterix seems to be doing fine and brings an outstanding capability to the RCN. As for a burr up my a** in regards to Davie, I have a similar stance on Irving as they have similar problems however Irving is actually building ships and to my knowledge we never had to steal a warship from Irving due to a labour dispute, I know that's ancient history but figured I'd mention it anyways as the yard often mentions its shipbuilding history.

15% of the overall project is not considered "major"?, although for something that's supposedly not considered major the company certainly made much about it with the amount of pictures of accommodations, galley, gym etc. I don't dispute what you said about Quebec workers being used or the Finnish company opening a facility in Quebec for future builds as it makes sense.

From Spencer Fraser CEO of Federal Fleet Services.

"The simple fact about it was that had the work been done in Quebec it would have added up to a year to the delivery date.

Potentially, the work could have been in Canada, Fraser says, but it would have meant a delay of almost a year in getting the converted ship into service.

"We don't start getting paid until the ship is delivered and we have a hard delivery date for commencement of service in the fall of 2017," Fraser said in an interview with CBC News.

"The main driver of this project is giving the capacity of a refueller to the navy as quickly as possible."

He said it has cost his company more to source the work offshore, but there was no choice given that the Davie yard had other projects underway." 


As for the accommodation's module not being major. 

"Retired rear admiral Pat Finn, the head of military procurement, told the House of Commons defence committee earlier this month that a major piece of the structure "has been built in Scandinavia" and will be brought over and attached to the ship in the spring." 

Sure what does he know  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/leased-navy-ship-1.3909874

End of the day the ship was delivered just before Christmas but the article mentions a hard delivery date of commencement of service of Fall 2017.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Meanwhile USCG waiting/hoping for congressional funding:



> Coast Guard Commandant Optimistic About Icebreaker Funding
> 
> The United States may soon get funding for a new heavy icebreaker ship, the head of the U.S. Coast Guard said on Thursday [Dec. 6], as global warming spurs the race to stake out the Arctic, which is rich in oil, gas, and minerals.
> 
> The United States has two operational icebreakers - a heavy one, the Polar Star, which is more than 42 years old and has outlived its life expectancy by a dozen years, and a medium one, the Healy cutter.
> 
> By comparison, Russia has about 40 to 50 icebreakers, purpose-built vessels that can rescue other ships, supply bases, and reach oil spills in harsh polar conditions.
> 
> "I'm guardedly optimistic funding for that first polar security cutter is going to be there," Commandant Karl Schultz said at a National Press Club event.
> 
> Icebreakers support scientific missions and operate in the Arctic and Antarctic, which hold vast natural gas, oil, mineral, fish, and fresh water resources, Schultz said.
> 
> While Washington participates in several forums on Arctic security and cooperation, such as the Arctic Council, it also needs to ensure it has the necessary equipment, he said. China early this year declared itself a "Near Arctic State," outlined how it believed the region should be developed, and is expanding its icebreaker fleet.
> 
> "Diplomacy and cooperation are really hollow or shallow without presence," Schultz said, adding that the _country needs a minimum of six icebreakers, which can cost about $1 billion each and take up to 10 years to build_ [emphasis added]. "If we're not present, if we don't own the environment today, guess who owns it tomorrow - our competitors."
> 
> While President Donald _Trump's administration has budgeted $750 million for an icebreaker, it is not certain whether the funding will survive in Congress, which is also looking for ways to fund the border wall with Mexico, among other items_ [emphasis added].
> 
> The Coast Guard is part of Homeland Security, one of several departments that have not been funded for the 2019 budget. Congress is expected to consider a $450 billion bill, before stopgap funding expires on Dec. 21, to fund the agencies through the fiscal year that ends next Sept. 30.
> https://www.marinelink.com/news/coast-guard-commandant-optimistic-460484



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa

Headline of official news release says it all--several gov'ts to bleam:



> Canadian Coast Guard adds to its icebreaker fleet for first time in twenty five years
> 
> December 14, 2018
> 
> Lévis, Quebec - Our Canadian waterways play a crucial role in our culture, history, and economy. Keeping these waterways safe and open for business is a priority for the Government of Canada. This is why we are ensuring that the Canadian Coast Guard is properly equipped for the important work it carries out on a daily basis in keeping Canadians and our Canadian waters safe.
> 
> Today, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Accessibility, the Honourable Carla Qualtrough, and the Minister of Families, Children and Social Development, the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, on behalf of the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, the Honourable Jonathan Wilkinson, and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance and Member of Parliament for Louis-Hébert, Joël Lightbound, announced that the first of the three medium icebreakers recently built by Chantier Davie for the Canadian Coast Guard will be named CCGS Captain Molly Kool. The expertise and the talent of Chantier Davie workers were in the limelight during that event, which highlighted the first floating of a Coast Guard icebreaker in twenty-five years.
> 
> The Ministers and the Parliamentary Secretary have seized the opportunity to visit the shipyard and to meet the workers, in order to reiterate the importance of Chantier Davie for the Canadian shipbuilding industry.
> 
> All three medium icebreakers, recently acquired by the Coast Guard, will undergo refit and conversion work at Chantier Davie in Lévis, Québec, to ensure they comply with Canadian regulatory and Coast Guard operational standards before entering the fleet.
> 
> The first ship will allow the Coast Guard to provide essential services during the upcoming winter season, while the other two undergo refit projects.
> 
> The namesake of the icebreaker, Captain Myrtle ‘Molly’ Kool, was the first woman in North America to become a master mariner. Myrtle Kool, known by everyone as Molly, was born in 1916 in Alma, New Brunswick. In 1937, she was the first woman in North America to become a licensed ship captain, and in 1939, was awarded her coastal master’s certificate.
> 
> CCGS Captain Molly Kool is part of the national Coast Guard fleet which carries out icebreaking duties in Atlantic Canada, the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes, and Arctic regions. This icebreaker is the latest Coast Guard asset deployed to help ensure the safety of Canadian waterways and those who rely on them, both for recreational and commercial purposes...
> 
> *Quick facts*
> 
> CCGS Captain Molly Kool measures 93.7 metres in length, and has a beam of 18 metres. It is classified as a medium icebreaker, and can maintain a speed of 3 knots through ice up to 1 metre thick.
> 
> In addition to icebreaking, the ship will support other Coast Guard programs, such as Search and Rescue and Environmental Response.
> 
> Icebreakers are crucial to Coast Guard services, the safety of mariners, protection of coastal waters, and efficient transport of people and goods through Canada’s waterways.
> 
> *Related products*
> 
> Backgrounder – Captain Molly Kool
> Backgrounder- Icebreaker specifications
> ...
> https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-coast-guard/news/2018/12/the-government-of-canada-reaffirms-its-commitment-to-davie-and-its-workers.html



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Just saw pictures on CTV News. She sure looks good in Coast Guard livery.


----------



## Cariboo trout

My first post on this site, and after over a decade lurking I need to jump in (and register  :christmas happy)**

These are excellent vessels and will serve us well over the years. 

My issue is with the staggering overall cost of three surplus offshore AHT that on the open market could have been picked up for 60 mill. US for the set. I have seen some very nice examples sitting idle in Bergen harbour, and envisioned the CCG picking out a few to use as a stopgap until new builds could come on line from Canadian yards - whenever THAT would come to fruition. 

My initial thoughts were - thank goodness someone in the government has some brains to pick these up cheap and get them into service. Alas, my dream/ figment has been once again crushed. C 800 million !! This stinks.

** my background/ career was in deep sea commercial operations - now retired. I have been involved in the planning, cost and build timing of handy size chemical tankers for a Canadian corporation (before my great escape  ;D)

Cheers
Logan


----------



## Uzlu

> Storied Coast Guard ship can’t be fixed, shipyard says, highlighting yet again, Canada’s shipbuilding problem
> 
> A Quebec shipyard hopeful of getting more federal work has condemned a storied Coast Guard ship as beyond repair, declining to bid on a lucrative contract to overhaul the 56-year-old CCGS Hudson on the grounds that it “presents a serious and real threat to the safety of life at sea.”
> 
> In a letter delivered Tuesday to officials with Public Services and Procurement Canada, Davie CEO Jared Newcombe said his company, based in Lévis, Que., would not bid on the contract to upgrade the Hudson as Davie believes the vessel to be beyond repair. A copy of that letter was provided to Global News.
> 
> The federal government was trying to squeeze another few years of service out of the Hudson which, having been commissioned in 1963, is the oldest ship in the Coast Guard’s fleet. Bidding on the life-extension contract, expected to be worth about $20 million, ended this week.
> 
> It is the latest headache to bedevil a federal shipbuilding process that has been rife with delays. Davie’s remarkable letter — procurement experts cannot recall a bidder ever recommending scrapping a major vessel when offered a chance to upgrade it — underscores the difficulties successive federal governments have had in updating an aging Coast Guard and Royal Canadian Navy fleet.
> 
> “The Coast Guard ships are in serious need of replacement now,” said David Perry, a defence procurement expert and senior analyst at the Ottawa-based think tank, the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. The average service of a Coast Guard ship is about 36 years. Canada’s Maritime peers typically replace their Coast Guard vessels within 30 years of service.
> 
> The Harper government announced in 2007 that the Hudson was to be replaced by 2012 and the contract to replace her was awarded to Vancouver’s Seaspan shipyard. But that project is mired in delays and it is not clear when there will be a replacement. There is not yet a confirmed date for construction to start while the projected budget of $331 million to build the Hudson’s replacement is under review.
> 
> The Hudson did have a $4-million refit in Hamilton, Ont., in 2016, and has had more work done on it since it returned to its East Coast port in Dartmouth, N.S., in 2017.
> 
> But Davie told the government that, in its view, the Hudson has now reached the end of the line.
> 
> “The level of degradation to the hull, fuel tanks, onboard systems and other structural elements presents a serious and real threat to the safety of life at sea as well as the environment,” Newcombe wrote. Newcombe said his company had to consider its own liability should it have won the current life extension contract, “as well as ethical, repetitional and environmental considerations.”
> 
> Public Services and Procurement Canada, the federal government department handling the work, has not replied to questions put to it early Thursday about Davie’s assessment of the Hudson’s condition.
> 
> The CBC reported last fall, citing documents it obtained under the federal Access to Information Act, that after reviewing the work done on the Hudson in 2016, an unnamed official with Lloyd’s Register, the maritime classification society based in the U.K., wrote, “There is no reason why the vessel should not continue to operate for another 5-10 years.”
> 
> The Hudson has a distinguished place in Canada’s Maritime history as a science and exploration vessel. Built in Saint John and launched in 1963, it became the first ship to ever circumnavigate North and South America, a voyage it completed from 1969 to 1970. It has also assisted in search-and-rescue operations in its long career.
> 
> Most recently, between Aug. 17 and Sept. 10 last year, it charted marine geohazards and natural seeps off southeastern Baffin Island, Nunavut.
> 
> But the scientific report published by Natural Resources Canada about that journey noted that there were problems with the ship. On its second day out of port, as it was travelling up the west coast of Newfoundland, for example, two of its engines developed problems. The problem with one engine was resolved but the other was out of action for the rest of the cruise.
> 
> The Coast Guard’s fleet problem could turn into an election issue. Davie and its supporters believe one solution to Canada’s aging fleets is to get more shipyards into action building new ships. Most of the work to build new navy and Coast Guard ships was awarded to Irving, based in Halifax, and to Seaspan, based in Vancouver.
> 
> Davie is located in a riding held by Conservative Steven Blaney, a former Harper-era cabinet minister, while the other shipyards are in Liberal territory. Politics has never been far from Canada’s shipbuilding policy with shipyards and their backers routinely conscripting political parties to push their agenda.
> 
> Indeed, one of the issues bubbling beneath the surface of the ongoing trial of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman are ties between the Irving family, owner of the Halifax shipyard and senior Liberal cabinet ministers Scott Brison and Dominic Leblanc.
> 
> A group of suppliers to the Davie Shipyard recently released a 10-minute video sharply critical not only of Canada’s shipbuilding strategy but also of Davie’s rivals, Irving and Seaspan.
> 
> The Hudson is one of five Coast Guard ships built in the 1960s, the most notable of which may be the heavy icebreaker CCGS Louis St. Laurent built in 1969.
> 
> The Hudson is one of two offshore oceanographic science vessels the Coast Guard operates. The other is CCGS John P. Tully, commissioned in 1984 and based out of Victoria.


https://globalnews.ca/news/4884924/coast-guard-ship-cant-be-fixed-canada-shipbuilding-problem/


----------



## Stoker

Uzlu said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/4884924/coast-guard-ship-cant-be-fixed-canada-shipbuilding-problem/



Just another calculated ploy by Davie to get more work. If Lloyd’s says the ship's life can be stretched out a few more years then I would believe them. They are not in the business to make false claims.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Reprise of 2016 post, based on report for Transport Canada:



> Canadian Coast Guard Going Down
> 
> Our politicians and media largely ignore–unlike their constant focus on military procurements–our mostly silent (civilian) service, to its great detriment. Now the awful facts described in a major government report tabled in February are reported:
> 
> "_Report raises alarm over Canada’s aging coast guard fleet_
> Review for Transport Canada calls for urgent renewal of ships that are among oldest in the world..."
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Cloud Cover

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Just another calculated ploy by Davie to get more work. If Lloyd’s says the ship's life can be stretched out a few more years then I would believe them. They are not in the business to make false claims.



I should hope not. They are also a marine insurance company.


----------



## CBH99

Question for Chief, as your one of the most knowledgeable folks here when it comes to Canada & ships.


I would think if Davie was simply looking for more work & more money, they would have jumped all over the contract and promised to do excellent work - knowing there's a good chance of them getting the contract too, with an election coming up.

The fact that they declined to even bid on the contract, and avoid getting the work - due to the ship posing substantial risks to sailors & the environment... how is that a ploy to get more work??


Genuine question, as I realize there's A LOT about shipbuilding & ship maintenance that happens behind the scenes that most of us don't hear about.


----------



## Uzlu

> One ship to save Canada's Arctic
> 
> Losing Canada's only underwater survey and scientific research ship means losing the Arctic and our ability to monitor and map the oceans.
> 
> It puts at risk Canada's Arctic sovereignty, our ability to monitor climate change as well as our ability to ensure the safety of navigation for marine traffic in the most sensitive of ecosystems. Until the new Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel can be delivered, Canada's Arctic is at risk.
> 
> While everyone has been talking about the bungled shipbuilding procurements for the Navy, few have noticed that the Canadian Coast Guard is on the brink of losing its only offshore oceanographic (hydrographic) science vessel, the 1963-built CCGS Hudson.
> 
> The CCGS Hudson has served Canada proudly for 55 years. Whether she was surveying underwater ridges to defend our sovereignty in the Arctic, monitoring climate change, surveying the seabed to create charts for the safe navigation of ships in the Arctic or searching for crashed aircraft, the need for an Offshore Oceanographic and Science Vessel is unambiguous.
> 
> But ships don't last forever.
> 
> In fact, it is widely accepted in the marine industry that ships should be taken out of service at between 25-30 years old.
> 
> In other words, she should have been scrapped in 1993.
> 
> But with a series of mismanaged procurements, that didn't happen. And despite the Coast Guard's valiant efforts to keep her in service, she has now been through a series of attempted but mostly botched repairs which have raised the eyebrows of those within the marine industry.
> 
> The most recent repair works were aborted halfway through.
> 
> It was, by all accounts, a futile exercise.
> 
> She is a write-off and certainly not the kind of ship we could risk sending North. Not if we value the lives of our men and women in the Coast Guard or the sensitive ecosystems of the Arctic.
> 
> Unfortunately, through years of Trudeau Liberal procurement mismanagement, we have seen numerous delays in the shipbuilding program.
> 
> The replacement for the CCGS Hudson should have been delivered for $108 million, but Liberal bungling and mishandling means it will cost well above $600 million and won't be delivered until 2021 at the earliest.
> 
> As a member of the House of Commons committee on Fisheries and Oceans, I have constantly battled to receive a simple schedule but have been met with a wall of silence and obfuscation by senior bureaucrats who will go to all lengths to suppress the dire reality of the situation.
> 
> This year I was even told that it was confidential. Please.
> 
> The planned OOSV ship which will replace the CCGS Hudson is one of the four Coast Guard ships penned to be built in Vancouver by Seaspan shipyard to prove its capability before it begins to take on larger projects for the Navy.
> 
> It is scheduled to be built after the first three Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels are delivered.
> 
> Therein lies the first problem - those ships are presently around seven years late and we are yet to see even one handed over to the Canadian Coast Guard.
> 
> And yet the Trudeau Liberals continue to muddy the water hoping Canadians won't recognize their poor attempts at welding together a coherent procurement strategy.
> 
> This past summer, an expedition cruise ship grounded in Nunavut. Whether that was because of insufficient charts available due to a lack of surveys is still to be determined by the authorities.
> 
> But one thing is clear - our wildlife got off very lightly.
> 
> If that had been an oil spill then it would have been a catastrophe.
> 
> With marine traffic increasing along our northern coast, the need for a ship to chart the mostly uncharted waters is critical.
> 
> And if we can't ascertain what lies beneath, how can we even begin to enforce our claims over this prized but hotly contested region?
> 
> Today, the government's commitment to the Ocean Protection Plan, and operational requirements including oil spill recovery, and scientific research demands the readiness of the Off-Shore Oceanographic Science Vessel.
> 
> Canada has the longest most geographically diverse coastlines in the world and the world's oldest marine fleet.
> 
> Most, if not all, of the fleet tasked with keeping our waterways open and secure for the safe transportation of goods and people, ensuring coastal communities and our Maritimers remain safe, are well beyond their nominal service dates.
> 
> If the Liberal government can't deliver the ship we need, and all indications are that they can't, then we need to change this government.
> 
> Canada cannot afford to lose this critical capability. Scientists, researchers and those who care about protecting the oceans need this ship build now - at a reasonable price point.
> 
> This is not about politics anymore. It's about putting Canada first.
> 
> The brave men and women of our Canadian Coast Guard deserve better.
> 
> Todd Doherty is the Conserviative Member of Parliament for Cariboo-Prince George and is the Official Opposition critic for Fisheries and Oceans.


https://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/opinion/columnists/one-ship-to-save-canada-s-arctic-1.23612041


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I would have been swayed a lot more by Mr. Doherty's opinion piece if he had admited that it was the Government of Canada, of any stripe as it may have been throughout the duration, that bungled this replacement program.

The Hudson should have been replaced by 1993! Fine, It was aConservative government that was in power for the nine years preceding that year (Mulroney 1984-1993). Surely they are to blame, too. Then the Conservatives were back in power for another nine years under Harper (2006-2015).

So there is blame enough for all here.

Moreover (and I think you all know I am no fan of "the Hair"), I would not blame the current government with not recognizing "their poor attempts at welding together a coherent procurement strategy."  The current ship procurement strategy was developed by the Conservatives and it is within that strategy (because once moved in one direction, civil servants will be near impossible to move into an other direction to adapt to new circumstances) that they are now trying to deal with the current state of the fleet. Hardly a disaster of their own making.

I say, let's see how they deal with the Hudson situation and then we can judge them on that.

Perhaps there is surplus, 25 years old, NOAA research vessel out there to be acquired as yet another stop gap solution until Seaspan builds the OOSV. One can only hope.


----------



## Czech_pivo

"The planned OOSV ship which will replace the CCGS Hudson is one of the four Coast Guard ships penned to be built in Vancouver by Seaspan shipyard to prove its capability before it begins to take on larger projects for the Navy.

It is scheduled to be built after the first three Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels are delivered.

Therein lies the first problem - those ships are presently around seven years late and we are yet to see even one handed over to the Canadian Coast Guard."

Say what you will about this article, the timing of it, the motivation behind it, whatever - but those sentences above highlight the fact that this scientific ship is NOT even on the agenda for Seaspan at this time. I've heard mention that that its back to the drawing board as there are issues with the design, while that certainly needs to be properly addressed, the irrefutable fact is that this ship will not be turned over to the CG until 2026 at a min. based on the current timelines, due to, (to use that dreaded word), capacity constraints at Seapsan as they struggle to complete the 3 Fisheries ships and as well as build the 2 JSS.

And what about the Def?  Will it even get built? If so, when will it be turned over to the CG, 2030? 2032?  I think that the St Laurent will be old enough to collect CPP by then......


----------



## Stoker

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Question for Chief, as your one of the most knowledgeable folks here when it comes to Canada & ships.
> 
> 
> I would think if Davie was simply looking for more work & more money, they would have jumped all over the contract and promised to do excellent work - knowing there's a good chance of them getting the contract too, with an election coming up.
> 
> The fact that they declined to even bid on the contract, and avoid getting the work - due to the ship posing substantial risks to sailors & the environment... how is that a ploy to get more work??
> 
> 
> Genuine question, as I realize there's A LOT about shipbuilding & ship maintenance that happens behind the scenes that most of us don't hear about.



Obviously I'm speculating however Davie for some time now have released videos, too good to be true deals for discounted AOR's, formed a Davie coalition group all in an effort to take advantage of the delays and further discredit the NSP and secure for them either new work or a piece of the existing ship building project. All efforts have been mildly successful up to now. I suspect their strategy now is to keep coming up with things to put in the media to keep them in the public eye for future work even especially after the PM,  MND and the head of the RCN right or wrong has said they do not need a further Asterix type ship or the need to involve them in the NSP. I believe this is a calculated ploy to keep the narrative going and to have the public including the government saying "Wow a shipyard giving up the right to possible work", it must be true and perhaps we should involve them in the NSP" Had they bid and possibility won the work, the government may say, "well we gave them the Asterix, three CG conversions, and future CPF work and now a major refit", they should keep quiet." I would have been more inclined to believe their sincerely if not throughout their marketing campaign that they continuously disparaged the other yards and say how good they are. They also went ahead and wrote a letter and publicized it to try and embarrass the government, at this point in the game I would be more inclined to believe Loyd's assessment of the condition of the ship since they are the ones certifying the vessel. So who to believe? Loyd's who hasn't anything to gain or lose or Davie who has everything to lose in the longer game. Looking at social media there are reports that crew members of CCGS Hudson have stated that the ship although old not in that bad shape at all and the problems they were having was the botched refit. At the end of the day the ship will be replaced eventually and is supposed to.  I can't wait to see what Davie comes up with next.


----------



## Cloud Cover

While I too think that if Davie is making overbroad claims that cannot/ are not supported by facts then they do themselves no favours. However, they are also a business with a sales and marketing department. It’s totally up to them how they wish to describe the state of the Hudson if they truly believe the state of the ship in their own assessment of attempt to deliver or perform on a contract. I suppose, if they wanted to, they could come back with an assessment that the ship requires an XXX million dollar refit, complete with new hull, machinery etc. Everybody would see that for what it is as well. 

Outside of defence enthusiasts, I don’t really see any other entity trying to light a fire under the governments posterior to get moving on rebuilding the fleets of Canada (military, coast guards, fishery, science etc)  Yes, this is in furthering their own interests, but they are a profit motivated business with a pretty clear ambition to actively build and innovate.  By many accounts, Asterix is performing and functioning within design specifications so Davie does have credibility. It might not be perfect and have it’s limitations and certainly some things could be better, but then again the same will most certainly apply to the Seaspan AOR and pretty much every other ship built, modified, converted or overhauled for Canada.


----------



## chrisf

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Looking at social media there are reports that crew members of CCGS Hudson have stated that the ship although old not in that bad shape at all and the problems they were having was the botched refit.



Bare in mind, most Canadian Coast Guard sailors only have experience on coast Guard ships...

So their only points of reference is other ships of similar vintage/condition.

The Hudson 56 years old. 

It was "old" and in need of replacement 26 years ago.


----------



## Stoker

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Bare in mind, most Canadian Coast Guard sailors only have experience on coast Guard ships...
> 
> So their only points of reference is other ships of similar vintage/condition.
> 
> The Hudson 56 years old.
> 
> It was "old" and in need of replacement 26 years ago.




Not denying that it needed to be replaced 30 years ago, just don't agree with their tactics and the fact Loyd's is on record saying it will last until a new one is built and they are the experts in the marine industry without a vested interest. Someone here is not being truthful.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> at this point in the game I would be more inclined to believe Loyd's assessment of the condition of the ship since they are the ones certifying the vessel. So who to believe?



How about the possibility that since the Loyd's assessment was done sometime back in 2016, which is anywhere from 2.5 to 3yrs ago that the condition of the ship could have deteriorated substantially in that time period and their assessment is no longer valid. In which Davie's current, present day assessment is completely valid and sincere.


----------



## Stoker

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> How about the possibility that since the Loyd's assessment was done sometime back in 2016, which is anywhere from 2.5 to 3yrs ago and the condition of the ship could have deteriorated substantially in that time period and their assessment is no longer valid. In which Davie's current, present day assessment is completely valid and sincere.



How about reports from their crew saying the condition of Hudson is not that bad? You do realize that transport Canada has to certify the vessel each year?


----------



## Czech_pivo

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> How about reports from their crew saying the condition of Hudson is not that bad? You do realize that transport Canada has to certify the vessel each year?



Very fair points Chief.  I was just pointing out that the Lloyd's assessment was over 2yrs ago and alot can happen in the time period. 

Also, has Transport Canada ever not certify one of our own ships?  Would they even be allowed to be that bold? 

As for those reports coming from the crew, who are they, did any of them go on the record in saying that the conditions on the ship were not that bad?  

Sorry, but I'm a little suspect on this topic after reading some of the most recent facts coming out of the V Admiral Mark Norman case in terms of the officer requiring privacy protection from his own colleagues and superiors because he's willing to come forward with information that helps the V Admiral and not the Govt.


----------



## Stoker

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Very fair points Chief.  I was just pointing out that the Lloyd's assessment was over 2yrs ago and alot can happen in the time period.
> 
> Also, has Transport Canada ever not certify one of our own ships?  Would they even be allowed to be that bold?
> 
> As for those reports coming from the crew, who are they, did any of them go on the record in saying that the conditions on the ship were not that bad?
> 
> Sorry, but I'm a little suspect on this topic after reading some of the most recent facts coming out of the V Admiral Mark Norman case in terms of the officer requiring privacy protection from his own colleagues and superiors because he's willing to come forward with information that helps the V Admiral and not the Govt.



In my experience Loyd's hull surveys don't change that much in that time period.  Transport Canada looks after marine safety in Canada, are you suggesting that a government agency is going to overlook safety violations or unsafe conditions.?


----------



## Czech_pivo

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> In my experience Loyd's hull surveys don't change that much in that time period.  Transport Canada looks after marine safety in Canada, are you suggesting that a government agency is going to overlook safety violations or unsafe conditions.?



Well, they did fail in Lac Megantic and the results of the investigation bear this out to be truthful.  So, precedence has been established.


----------



## Stoker

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Well, they did fail in Lac Megantic and the results of the investigation bear this out to be truthful.  So, precedence has been established.



Ok sure transport Canada and by extension the Canadian government could be faking Hudson's true condition and Davie shipyard is the only one telling the truth. :


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Ok sure transport Canada and by extension the Canadian government could be faking Hudson's true condition and Davie shipyard is the only one telling the truth. :



I am not saying that Davie is operating from a position of pure altruism, but, in my experience, I have been involved in more than a couple of situations where the actual material condition of an object, aircraft or ship differed markedly from what the senior leadership in Ottawa either were told or they chose to believe a unrealistic rosy scenario.


----------



## Stoker

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I am not saying that Davie is operating from a position of pure altruism, but, in my experience, I have been involved in more than a couple of situations where the actual material condition of an object, aircraft or ship differed markedly from what the senior leadership in Ottawa either were told or they chose to believe a unrealistic rosy scenario.



True and I have seen it myself, but when you hear three instances corroborated or not disputing the conclusion of a yard that has nothing to lose and everything to gain I greet that with skepticism. Given the new Davie inspired new story today they very well may get more work in the near future.

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/trudeau-pressed-in-quebec-city-to-give-more-contracts-to-david-shipyard/wcm/5f4e088e-ebb7-4bc5-b667-8297a6b1dd3c


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I think all position variously described above can make some sense, one way or another.

Let's deal with Transport Canada certification first: Point one here is, I am not sure that the Coast Guard fleets needs it (anymore than we, in the Navy need it either). But even if it was required, Transport Canada inspection/certification of Canadian flagged ships only addresses whether the proper pubs, charts, and life saving equipment is carried onboard and up to date and whether all the ship's paperwork is in order. Those certification have nothing to do with seaworthiness and do not address that aspect. So it is of no use in this discussion 

Second, Coast Guardsmen, as pointed out by A Sig Op don't necessarily have point of reference for their view. Moreover, unless they are the ship's engineers, they probably don't know enough about it to start with, just like we wouldn't take the word of a naval communicator or boatswain as indicative of the mechanical state of our ships in the RCN. So social media opinions is just gossip - not a relevant fact.

We now come to Lloyd's. First, as pointed out, the survey is a few years old - and in old ship's estimating life time of the hull/machinery is not easy. Yet, the Lloyd's surveyors are professionals who work with limited information (the surveys are usually carried out with the ship in the water - not in dry dock - so many things are hidden to them) and usually do a good job of it. However, they are usually called upon to make a survey in order for the ship to be insurable. Canada, like most Western nations, self-insures it's own ships. Why the needs for a survey then? Because that survey was done shortly before the Hudson was turned over to a shipyard for her last refit ( the one that was screwed up). That survey was made so the yard could insure the ship while she was in their custody. It likely took into consideration the expected result from that refit work in coming to its conclusion.

Finally, I note in the Davie letter declining the work an important point they raise: the "reputational" risk of taking on this refit. To me, that is the key: Davie has built up a good reputation in the last few years - since it came under English management - and the last thing they need, even at the cost of $20M, is to lose reputation/cred. as a result of trying to fix a ship not worth fixing and then having that ship fail anyway just because it was at the end of its life, and Davie being blamed for that.

The 280's were refitted in the early 1990's and more than 25 years later, some people ( even in these fora   ) are still holding it against Davie. Can you think of a good reason they would want to take that risk with the Hudson? I can't.

So I think that it is possible for ALL of the various points expressed above to be either true or validly believed by the people expressing them without looking at Davie having an ulterior motive in this matter.


----------



## Stoker

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I think all position variously described above can make some sense, one way or another.
> 
> Let's deal with Transport Canada certification first: Point one here is, I am not sure that the Coast Guard fleets needs it (anymore than we, in the Navy need it either). But even if it was required, Transport Canada inspection/certification of Canadian flagged ships only addresses whether the proper pubs, charts, and life saving equipment is carried onboard and up to date and whether all the ship's paperwork is in order. Those certification have nothing to do with seaworthiness and do not address that aspect. So it is of no use in this discussion
> 
> Second, Coast Guardsmen, as pointed out by A Sig Op don't necessarily have point of reference for their view. Moreover, unless they are the ship's engineers, they probably don't know enough about it to start with, just like we wouldn't take the word of a naval communicator or boatswain as indicative of the mechanical state of our ships in the RCN. So social media opinions is just gossip - not a relevant fact.
> 
> We now come to Lloyd's. First, as pointed out, the survey is a few years old - and in old ship's estimating life time of the hull/machinery is not easy. Yet, the Lloyd's surveyors are professionals who work with limited information (the surveys are usually carried out with the ship in the water - not in dry dock - so many things are hidden to them) and usually do a good job of it. However, they are usually called upon to make a survey in order for the ship to be insurable. Canada, like most Western nations, self-insures it's own ships. Why the needs for a survey then? Because that survey was done shortly before the Hudson was turned over to a shipyard for her last refit ( the one that was screwed up). That survey was made so the yard could insure the ship while she was in their custody. It likely took into consideration the expected result from that refit work in coming to its conclusion.
> 
> Finally, I note in the Davie letter declining the work an important point they raise: the "reputational" risk of taking on this refit. To me, that is the key: Davie has built up a good reputation in the last few years - since it came under English management - and the last thing they need, even at the cost of $20M, is to lose reputation/cred. as a result of trying to fix a ship not worth fixing and then having that ship fail anyway just because it was at the end of its life, and Davie being blamed for that.
> 
> The 280's were refitted in the early 1990's and more than 25 years later, some people ( even in these fora   ) are still holding it against Davie. Can you think of a good reason they would want to take that risk with the Hudson? I can't.
> 
> So I think that it is possible for ALL of the various points expressed above to be either true or validly believed by the people expressing them without looking at Davie having an ulterior motive in this matter.



Seaworthiness, fitness of machinery and life saving equipment would likely fall under international conventions such as IMO ,however transport Canada still enforces it and is still under the Canada shipping act.

Just as this social media forum is made up of SME with informed opinions, the reports of the current condition of Hudson comes from the Halifax shipping news who is well respected and well connected in the marine industry so I wouldn't discount that entirely either.

According to the government "The vessel remains in good condition, and meets all Transport Canada regulatory requirement and is fully certified.” I doubt a PW person will actually state that publically given the liability issues if it wasn't true. 

As for the survey I acknowledge that the survey is old however that last survey was carried out at the end of the refit and each time the ship goes into refit Loyd's has to certify all testing, welds and work being carried out. This is also changing with regards to the ABS taking over certifications and inspections.  Hudson's life extension dry dock specifications are quite clear in Loyd's involvement throughout the scope of work and sea trials, along with the CG technical authority and PW. Loyds will also carry out a 5 year hull survey as part of the work. This is very important to maintain the ships ice classification as it will be operating in the Arctic.

End of the day Hudson is going to continue to sail like she always did and will be refitted until replaced. 

We all know the company that is known as Davie is not the same company that did the 280's refit but they love to trot out their 100 years of ship building experience as proof of how good they are so they so they can own the 280 fiasco regardless.

Again I think Davie is so desperate for work from the government they will do or say anything to get that work and up until now has done nothing not in the interest of the company to get more work.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I know personlly of 2 incidents were CCG/DFO ships were detained by Transport Canada marine Safety. One was the CCGC Racer because our flares were out of date and some minor problems with our lifesaving gear, sorted out by next day. The DFO vessel was because of the appalling state of safety gear onboard. We had come alongside it and tied up for the night, saw a buddy of mine decking on her, he showed me how bad their gear was, I told my Captain, he talked to theirs, found out that management was not spending any money on the vessels, my captain called Marine Safety, who sent down an Inspector and detained the ship, they were still detained when we pulled out a day later. The crew was happy about getting things fixed.
Sadly my trust in the current senior management of the CCG is limited, much of it has no sea going experience and more concerned about their careers than ships.


----------



## chrisf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Let's deal with Transport Canada certification first: Point one here is, I am not sure that the Coast Guard fleets needs it (anymore than we, in the Navy need it either). But even if it was required, Transport Canada inspection/certification of Canadian flagged ships only addresses whether the proper pubs, charts, and life saving equipment is carried onboard and up to date and whether all the ship's paperwork is in order. Those certification have nothing to do with seaworthiness and do not address that aspect. So it is of no use in this discussion



I'm not familiar with the Navy, but I assume they have some sort of internal department to issue the appropriate certificates.

The Coast Guard does not. 

Transport Canada Marine Safety absolutely does issue the required certificates of sea worthiness (not just the usual flag state stuff) to Coast Guard vessels on behalf of the Canadian Government, and they don't sail without the certificates.



			
				Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Also, has Transport Canada ever not certify one of our own ships?  Would they even be allowed to be that bold?



Yes, has happened many times.

Same thing happens as any other ship not being certified.

You're given a list of deficiencies, and it's up to the ship owner to fix them.

With most privately owned ships, this usually leads to a cost-benefit analysis of the cost of repair vs replace.

Most government ships are usually just repaired.




> We now come to Lloyd's. First, as pointed out, the survey is a few years old - and in old ship's estimating life time of the hull/machinery is not easy. Yet, the Lloyd's surveyors are professionals who work with limited information (the surveys are usually carried out with the ship in the water - not in dry dock - so many things are hidden to them) and usually do a good job of it. However, they are usually called upon to make a survey in order for the ship to be insurable. Canada, like most Western nations, self-insures it's own ships. Why the needs for a survey then? Because that survey was done shortly before the Hudson was turned over to a shipyard for her last refit ( the one that was screwed up). That survey was made so the yard could insure the ship while she was in their custody. It likely took into consideration the expected result from that refit work in coming to its conclusion.



As of a few years ago, Lloyds was taking over from Transport Canada Marine Safety in the role of surveyors on the coast guard vessels. 

My understanding is that the ships were still "under written" by the Government of Canada, however Lloyds was would be acting as surveyors on behalf of the government of Canada.

This leads to problems on a few ships, when Lloyds inspectors suddenly found problems that had been previously overlooked by Transport Canada Inspectors (not intentionally... but that's a whole different discussion). 

I'm not certain if Lloyds is acting as the surveyor for the Hudson if they were were in 2016, but that may be why they were commenting on it's condition.



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Sadly my trust in the current senior management of the CCG is limited, much of it has no sea going experience and more concerned about their careers than ships.



https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM


----------



## Stoker

So if Davie was so concerned about the present condition and safety of CCGS Hudson why not instead of addressing their concerns to Public Works, send it to the Transport Canada who is obligated to investigate marine safety complaints and have done so in the past to the Canadian Coast guard? I wonder why they didn't


----------



## chrisf

I assume because they're a private company doing what's in the best interest of their business.

In fairness, their statement is concerning the next refit, not an immediate concern with the vessel (though personally, I've witnessed one coast guard vessel sinking due to poor condition/age... and that one was a good bit newer than the hudson)


----------



## Colin Parkinson

We are not alone.....

https://thenewsrep.com/113374/coast-guard-sends-scuba-divers-under-ailing-icebreaker-in-antarctica-and-thats-not-all-that-went-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR1UKU0R0GYo35OP-rH_495IYs4w0Z_QnCEOVDBvmjRghOssP_TV3GSI_7o

America’s only operational heavy icebreaker, the Polar Star, reached McMurdo Station in Antarctica earlier this week, breaking through ice as thick as 21 feet along the way to clear a path for a cargo vessel to resupply America’s Antarctic operations. This marks the sixth such voyage in as many years for the Polar Star, but the voyage wasn’t without some serious setbacks for the aging ship.

The 150 Coast Guardsmen aboard the Polar Star may have had concerns about their missed paychecks during the voyage, but there was hardly time to lament personal financial concerns amid a number of serious issues plaguing the vessel. At one point, the ship’s 1970s-era electrical system began to smoke, which caused damage to other wiring and one of the ship’s electrical switchboards. Soon, one of the two evaporators used to produce potable water for the crew failed. Then, a leak around the icebreaker’s propeller shaft stopped the ship in its tracks, forcing the vessel to deploy scuba divers to repair the seal as it took on water. 


Rest on link


----------



## Czech_pivo

Colin P said:
			
		

> We are not alone.....
> 
> At one point, the ship’s 1970s-era electrical system began to smoke, which caused damage to other wiring and one of the ship’s electrical switchboards.
> 
> 
> Rest on link



Man, those guys are lucky to have 1970s-era electrical systems, we've got to deal with 1960s era on the St. Laurent.   :rofl:


----------



## Spencer100

if nothing else...cool picture in the article.  Gives a great view of the size of the prop.   Super clear water too.


----------



## chrisf

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Man, those guys are lucky to have 1970s-era electrical systems, we've got to deal with 1960s era on the St. Laurent.   :rofl:



On the Louis S St Laurent?

Other than her prop motors, most of her major systems have been replaced at some point. (Edit: i think the prop motors have also been rewound and rebuild at some point, but technically "original)

She was converted from steam-electric to diesel-electric in 1993.

She's usually more reliable than some of the newer vessels, and physically in good condition, though would never pass any modern standards for crew accomodations.


----------



## Uzlu

> Davie takes aim at shipbuilding strategy
> 
> Chantier Davie Canada Inc. just fired a big shot at the federal government in its ongoing war to discredit the national shipbuilding strategy.
> 
> In a letter, the Levi, Que., shipyard declined to bid on refit work for the coast guard’s science vessel CCGS Hudson, saying its condition “presents a serious and real threat to safety of life at sea.” The ship, which entered service in 1963, is the oldest in the coast guard fleet, at 56.
> 
> I have spoken with former crew of the Hudson who feel this statement is off base. The ship is still safe, despite its age, but things are wearing out, thus the requirement for the work period. According to the request for proposals, the refit work is scheduled for Feb. 25 to July 15 this year and includes significant steel work, tank replacement, and replacement of watertight openings.
> 
> The work will need to pass a Lloyds Register inspection. Lloyds Register is a class society, which exists to inspect vessels’ hull and machinery against the societies technical standards. If the vessel meets those standards, it is said to be “In Class” and insurance underwriters have assurances that a loss will not be the result of a design or construction defect.
> 
> Transport Canada also makes use of class societies under its delegated statutory inspection program or DISP.
> 
> The DSIP essentially allows Transport Canada to accept a class society’s confirmation that a vessel meets the required safety standards without having Transport Canada independently inspect the ship. Most coast guard vessels are classed by the American Bureau of Shipping or ABS. The Hudson is classed with Lloyds Register.
> 
> The presence of the class society notwithstanding, Transport Canada Ship Safety has an obligation to inspect and detain any ship that it becomes aware may be potentially unsafe. I have heard stories of coast guard vessels being detained by the coast guard in the past due to various issues.
> 
> Davie’s letter should be considered a notification that the ship is unsafe, requiring Transport Canada to take action.
> 
> Davie’s letter was addressed to the public works procurement contact, suggesting the letter was more of a political statement than a legitimate safety concern, though since becoming public, Transport Canada would have a responsibility to act.
> 
> A request to Transport Canada, to confirm if they received the letter from Davie, or if they consider its publication to be sufficient grounds to investigate, and to find out what actions they have taken, was acknowledged, but not answered by deadline.
> 
> CCGS Hudson’s last refit began in 2016 and went over schedule into 2017. The failure to meet the schedule was largely blamed on the Heddle Marine Shipyard in Hamilton, Ont. where the work was carried out, rather than issues with the ship.
> 
> Davie is campaigning hard for work under the National Ship Building Procurement Strategy, and is attempting to suggest that the plan is a failure. While ships are being built, only so many vessels can be constructed at once in the two yards awarded contracts, and Davie is trying to suggest they should get some of the work to expedite fleet renewal.
> 
> The federal government certainly didn’t do any favours to the Canadian shipbuilding industry when they declined to build any new vessels in the ’90s and 2000s leading to a situation where the Coast Guard fleet, plus a portion of the Navy's fleet, needs renewal at once. The current government is now wearing it.


https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/business/shipping-news-davie-takes-aim-at-shipbuilding-strategy-279912/


----------



## Stoker

Uzlu said:
			
		

> https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/business/shipping-news-davie-takes-aim-at-shipbuilding-strategy-279912/



Very familiar discussion on another social media forum i'm on and what I been saying all along. We'll see what happens now.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

They don't miss a beat:  

_News from Newfoundland and Labrador: What a proud moment! Our new icebreaker, CCGS Captain Molly Kool, and the crew has officially received their first assignment! On January 29, they escorted a tanker through the ice, outbound from Charlottetown Prince Edward Island._

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoastGuard/posts/541310636351699?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDJKMjXp-pFC1bXcCvjo0_mckNpr2TRrn9T_bcaFxwHdSiFH9dApZ9lhnFL2MsDZRyXjjIzpbDisLoWcdRDkQqQhC8v5q9ZxsuEa3sh3DUzN212QSrL6Nai-ITiZCpzz_r5bvXH7IEIlfxnkr-IFbeE2XUCqFuzvUUWSd_JXLkKix38ARyOqkZGtxmGrmiXTtYvTXbeySVzbAhWEa1PezG43SaC2BdWwlpxn_-OhYaiMcT0q7LXkKZFf7GYrs1MtZFloTsnL2wgTVDlqqVutF2bg9TGpXU0sCnCoKZSzralBArYMuqtA_drxDMANcu6riAReZkYcUrhB1CYoJQovku0uzZMbdOSyClqyHM7uKrCKJs4_8C5eNs0nD_4HGz8TClJHGXJGFVmZypj6vFexcavZWuq8ZyTJsFJNHJs_6h6A1dINSRCCk6fKTo0yvMlz-tqT7VzVv2OXjTlCYIND-a1D_DrJjlylgzKTMmKwUq-GfRpEUbLXxO-jed79fClxGRewj0_7B5SHiYhpAc&__tn__=C-R


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Some upbeat stuff on the new ship https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoastGuard/videos/2379913598689408/


----------



## Kirkhill

Meanwhile: Our new Hero MSPVs



> Canada's $227-million fleet of mid-shore coast guard vessels are rolling "like crazy" at sea, making crews seasick and keeping some ships in port during weather conditions where they should be able to operate, CBC News has learned.





> The coast guard decided it did not need stabilizers when the ships were being built, but has been considering retrofitting them since 2017 amid criticism from commanding officers and others who serve on board.





> The coast guard denies there is any problem with the safety and stability of the fleet. However, in a March 2017 "configuration change request" to have stabilizers installed, coast guard project manager David Wyse described "an increased hazard of crew injuries and program failures.
> 
> "All vessel operators agree the Hero class vessels require stabilizers in all area of operation," Wyse wrote. "Program operations can suffer [due] to the fact that the vessels have extreme roll in high sea state conditions."
> 
> More than a year later, in May 2018, Wyse relayed an unidentified at-sea testimonial: "I'm rolling 15 degrees port and starboard (30 degrees total) out here today and the winds are less than 10 knots and seas are less than one metre. We need to make this platform more workable."





> "By the way stabilizers should never have been removed from the original design. Please put them back ASAP. Losing a few cubic metres of fuel space will be a minor factor compared to the huge gain in stability, safety and comfort for the crew."





> An analysis of options prepared for the coast guard by a Dartmouth, N.S., naval architecture firm said stabilizers were intended as original equipment.
> 
> "Due to many changes to the original design the vessel had become too heavy and it was decided to drop the stabilizers to save weight and reduce hull resistance," said an assessment by Lengkeek Vessel Engineering prepared for the coast guard.
> 
> Stabilizers would add weight
> Mario Pelletier, deputy coast guard commissioner, disputes that, and said stabilizers were never dropped because the coast guard never asked for them.
> 
> He said they are now being considered as part of planning for a mid-life modernization. In the meantime, the coast guard is grappling with the added weight and space that would be required to put them on.
> 
> "We're going to do the feasibility study and I think it looks promising but there will be trade-offs that fleet will have to agree to (carry less fuel, vessels that go slower because of the appendages) so I don't know that you'd be in a position to promise stabilizers," wrote DFO naval architect Tracey Clarke in a May 2017 email to David Wyse.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-ships-can-t-handle-rough-seas-1.5009312

Do I detect a continuation of a pattern re coast guard design?

Top hamper. (Weight above the water line and superstructure)
Instability.
Decisions based on accounting principles rather than project management principles.  (The budget is more important than the intent of the project).

Getting a functional design out of PSPC and the DFO seems to have been a problem with the MSPVs (stabilizers), the OFSVs (stability), the OOSV (delayed design).  One can only hope that the Diefenbaker has been better managed.

And, for the record, the AOPS vessels took a functional design (Svalbard) and Canadianized it by changing the hull form and the propulsion system.  

In the words of Doris Day - Que sera, sera!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Never once did I hear the union complain on our behalf about the R Class boats and they rolled their guts out. the lifejacket under the bunk was pretty much standard and these boats would have been a definite step up.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

you forgot the: 

500 class - stability

47' Lifeboat - selecting a contractor that had never built a boat before, boat failed acceptance trials, contract finally given to a proper shipyard.

41'- utility boat - as above

70' Point class - welding so bad contract was cancelled after 2 boats out of the 9 scheduled

Weatherships - stability cured by filling fuel tanks for of concrete

Torpedo recovery vessels - Stability

Landing craft, fuel - poor design and weld quality

Sports fishing boat design that the Minister loved, bought for CCG - constant maintenance problems 

R class - stability issues dues to CCG additional superstructure and rescue boat placement, engine problems, ended up with smaller less power Deutz over the design called for Cumins.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Out of curiosity anyone know if they are top heavy, or did someone overdo it on the stability side?  For examples, the MCDVs can carry a crazy ice load and still be good, but means they are really stiff in normal conditions, so you get battered around with quick rolls (because the ship is so stable it is very quickly correcting any rolls).

Our normal warships have a much higher stability threshold than commercial ships (because of the damage survival requirements) so curious what kind of GM they have on the Hero class.

15 degree rolls in whitecaps and minimal wind seems pretty excessive though.


----------



## Kirkhill

Colin P said:
			
		

> you forgot the:
> 
> 500 class - stability
> 
> 47' Lifeboat - selecting a contractor that had never built a boat before, boat failed acceptance trials, contract finally given to a proper shipyard.
> 
> 41'- utility boat - as above
> 
> 70' Point class - welding so bad contract was cancelled after 2 boats out of the 9 scheduled
> 
> Weatherships - stability cured by filling fuel tanks for of concrete
> 
> Torpedo recovery vessels - Stability
> 
> Landing craft, fuel - poor design and weld quality
> 
> Sports fishing boat design that the Minister loved, bought for CCG - constant maintenance problems
> 
> R class - stability issues dues to CCG additional superstructure and rescue boat placement, engine problems, ended up with smaller less power Deutz over the design called for Cumins.



So there is no observable pattern then?  :


----------



## Greater_Ape

One notable difference between the CCG MSPVs and the original Dutch design is how the RHIB is launched.  On the Damen 4207, the RHIB is launched from a stern ramp.  On the MSPVs, the RHIB is launched with a crane.  Why do it that way? Because the MSPVs are patrol vessels, and usually carry at least one Fishery or RCMP officer. When the RCMP was consulted, they wanted to be able to launch their own RHIB and do their police thing in a situation where the CCG FRC (Fast Rescue Craft, it's a RHIB but orange) had already been deployed on CCG business (SAR for example).  As far as I know however, only MSPVs on the Great Lakes carry two RHIBs at one time. On the other two coasts they only carry one.  Ironically, the RCMP has now backed away from the MSPV program on the Lakes, so now the CCG is left holding the bag.  Thanks RCMP.

The current scuttlebutt is that no engineer over 6ft will be assigned to work on a Mid-shore from now on.  There have been too many head injuries.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

LOL. I served on the R class, trying to launch a RHIB from the top of the deckhouse was "interesting", recovering it was almost Russian roulette in any seaway. Hence the reason the 500 class got the stern ramp. They really became a floating SAR station supporting the Mk 7. The 500's could been an excellent design if they had chopped off a deck, lengthened it back to the original design and added a large towing winch. Currently none of the west coast SAR/buoy tenders vessels are set up for large vessel towing and that is just plain stupid.


----------



## Stoker

N.L. company gets $10M contract to refit 56-year-old coast guard ship

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hudson-retrofit-contract-awarded-st-john-s-dockyard-1.5015831?cmp=FB_Post_NL&fbclid=IwAR2scEfoyERxsX61mUoaEMGiVtvEigKsDnwcGIq91RkP9pBBhBB8aSqnUlI


----------



## Journeyman

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> N.L. company gets $10M contract to refit 56-year-old coast guard ship


???  I am NOT a sailor or any sort. 

I usually rely on credible site members to fill in the blanks and provide insights.  So, what are your thoughts on this Chief? Good? Bad? Indifferent?


----------



## Stoker

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ???  I am NOT a sailor or any sort.
> 
> I usually rely on credible site members to fill in the blanks and provide insights.  So, what are your thoughts on this Chief? Good? Bad? Indifferent?



New Dock has a long history of refitting federal and provincial ships, in fact they just did a refit on HMCS Goose bay. I guess they have no problem putting their reputation on the line unlike Davie.


----------



## chrisf

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I usually rely on credible site members to fill in the blanks and provide insights.  So, what are your thoughts on this Chief? Good? Bad? Indifferent?



New Dock does acceptable work.

There's always at least one coast guard vessel in their yard or graving dock, and there's usually no complaints.

They don't live solely on government work either, plenty of privately owned vessels in the yard at any time.

The project will still likely overrun the budget.


----------



## Greater_Ape

Colin P said:
			
		

> The 500's could been an excellent design if they had chopped off a deck, lengthened it back to the original design and added a large towing winch. Currently none of the west coast SAR/buoy tenders vessels are set up for large vessel towing and that is just plain stupid.



There are also the two new-to-us Emergency Towing Vessels that the CCG leased from Atlantic Towing.  They've got the equipment and the skills for towing everything up to and including oil rigs, but they cost $30K each per day to have sitting at the dock.


----------



## chrisf

Greater_Ape said:
			
		

> There are also the two new-to-us Emergency Towing Vessels that the CCG leased from Atlantic Towing.  They've got the equipment and the skills for towing everything up to and including oil rigs, but they cost $30K each per day to have sitting at the dock.



Bare in mind, the day rate is all inclusive excluding fuel.


----------



## Kirkhill

You might want to further bear in mind that even government ships cost money sitting alongside.

You start off with depreciation to compensate for equipment becoming worn and obsolete and having to be replaced.....

Oh wait!  Government materiel doesn't have to bear that cost after all.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

We amortize that cost by doubling the lifetime of a ship.  ;D

Not to mention that almost 100% of sea going personal are not getting paid or improperly paid, so the costs of a CCG is far less.

Wages for a 1100 are about $9,616 a day (average crew wage $65,000 x 45 divided by 365 days, multiplied by 1.2)

That's for a ship that can break ice in the Arctic, resupply lighthouses, build beacons, buoy tend all over the coast and do SAR. Having been aboard when we tried tow the Exxon San Fransisco, they are not good tow vessels.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Wages for a 1100 are about $9,616 a day (average crew wage $65,000 x 45 divided by 365 days, multiplied by 1.2)



Once you toss in all the other associated costs (overtime, training, benefits,  vessel maintenance, grub, etc) $30k is comprable to to the cost of running other similar sized vessels.

Believe or not, theres probably not much of a profit margin on this, the day rate is also comprable to what anyone else would pay for the vessel, and it was a race to the bottom for pricing when oil collapsed a few years ago.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

1.2 is the standard calculation for HR costs. Food is likely $500 a day, Training only happens roughly once a year for 5 days for the majority of the fleet and is a cost not borne of the vessel. (people are required to get their tickets on their own time, unless your a ring wearer) Fuel costs per hour steamed are likely to be a tad lower, unless breaking ice.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> 1.2 is the standard calculation for HR costs. Food is likely $500 a day, Training only happens roughly once a year for 5 days for the majority of the fleet and is a cost not borne of the vessel. (people are required to get their tickets on their own time, unless your a ring wearer) Fuel costs per hour steamed are likely to be a tad lower, unless breaking ice.



I assume you're thinking of 5 year MED refershers, but there's a lot more training than that...

Fall arrest, confined space,  first aid, CPR, FRC,, etc, both the cost of the course, and the additional training days paid to the crew.

They usually pay for any courses required to upgrade marine tickets as well.

Even if it's not a cost borne by the vessel, it's paid by government.

Plus overtime for any work outside of normal working hours, and allowances paid (nothing sillier than "dirty" pay)

After allowances, overtime, and training days, my net pay was almost double my base salary when I worked for the coast guard.

That's personnel, but you've also got vessel maintenance cost.

Parts for routine maintenance and repairs, certificates to be renewed, annual maintenance done, refit completed, etc.

The $30k day rate is all inclusive, you get a crewed vessel, that performs to the specifications you contracted, you just pay for fuel.

A few years ago when the larger companies were trying to see who had deeper pockets and offering ships at a loss in an attempt to drive competition out of business, a similar ship would have been $20k.

So if you include *all* associated costs, it's likely comprable to what it costs the government to run a similar sized ship.

You can't even compare the day rate of chartering a private vessel directly to the operations budget of a government vessel, as many associated costs are covered by other budgets.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I assume you're thinking of 5 year MED refershers, but there's a lot more training than that...
> 
> Fall arrest, confined space,  first aid, CPR, FRC,, etc, both the cost of the course, and the additional training days paid to the crew.




Wait! What! No GBA+  ? ? ? ? ?


How'd you get so lucky.  ;D


----------



## Greater_Ape

My issue with the ETVs  is not the day rate, it's the fact that we're leasing a capability that in my opinion is superfluous.  We're not in the business of towing oil rigs.  I don't think the CCG or the public is going to get their money's worth with these 16,000hp Offshore Supply Vessels that are likely going to sit idle at the dock for months on end. 
I think the money could have been better spent elsewhere.  But I'm an engineer so what do I know. When you spend most of your days below waterline you don't get to see the big picture  .


----------



## chrisf

We're absolutely in the business of towing oil rigs in an emergency... or anything else stricken and potentially a hazard to life or the environment...

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/02/business/energy-environment/shell-oil-rig-runs-aground-in-alaska.html

Oil rigs aren't the primary concern though, tankers are.

Despite all the tanker traffic on the west coast, the coast guard had no vessels capable of effectively towing one in an emergency, and with that, very little experience towing vessels that size.

I don't know the full details of the contract, but there's no reason to expect their sole task will be towing... they're quite capable of performing many of the tasks other coast guard vessels perform... the Grenfel manages... she even manages to lay bouys.

Though ironically, many of those other vessels spend months idling at the wharf as well when they're on primary SAR standby.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The problem is that the CCG on this coast has no large ship tow capacity and there are very few tugs that do. The last incident with the Russian freighter, none the tugs available were certified to go that far out to rescue her. If LNGCanada continues to go ahead that will change for the North Coast as there will be several large modern escort tugs. When we rigged up the Pearkes to tow the Exxon tanker, we felt at best we would be able to hold her in position and that was in fairly calm weather. There has been a few incidents with pusher tugs out here with oil barges. We been lucky so far. The last freighter I am aware of going aground in the Queen Charlotte Islands was around 1956.
 It would have been better to help Smit and Seaspan out here to acquire a large tug each that would do normal work within an zone and be able to go out to respond to calls. The other option is to buy and man with CCG personal, anchor handling vessels that could do CCG NavAid and SAR work as well. Problem with that is no one wants to work with CCG anymore, pays sucks compared to industry when they actually manage to pay you. When LNGC kicks in they are going to suck up even more ticketed CCG personal as well.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> The other option is to buy and man with CCG personal, anchor handling vessels that could do CCG NavAid and SAR work as well.



Are those duties not included in the contract for these vessels? 

No reason they can't do that work as long as they're within suitable range to respond for towing as well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Not sure what the contract allows, but taking union jobs with non-PSAC employees would be seen as a threat to PSAC and the big ship CCG senior officers types alike.


----------



## chrisf

Colin P said:
			
		

> Not sure what the contract allows, but taking union jobs with non-PSAC employees would be seen as a threat to PSAC and the big ship CCG senior officers types alike.



I haven't read the contract either, but I have read the solicitation  documents from the tender...

From the operations overview in appendix a...




"The contractor will provide two vessels crewed by certificated personnel and equipped to undertake emergency towing operations as per the contract. 

The CCG will deploy and operate these vessels as units within the CCG fleet primarily tasked to the ER program to provide an emergency towing response when required.

The vessels will also be deployed to conduct preparedness activities related to the ER program such as exercising, training, community engagement, scientific assesment and monitoring, while maintaining the standby posture.

Concurrent with the ER deployment, the vessels will be multi-tasked to provide a level of SAR coverage within their area of operation will also support other programs and CCG activities."




The vessel itself was required to provide accomodations for for additional SAR equipment to be furnished by the government, as well as a 20' ISO container of environmental response gear.

2 FRCs with davit's were listed as a requirement, and bulwarks and a crane suitable for launch and recovery of bouys was listed as a desirable.

It also defines an operations area for the vessels, based on a suitable response time for towing.

Aside from the vessel, the other major deliverable was a training program on board the ship, to teach coast guard officers towing... minimum space on board for the program was 6 desirable was 12... the two vessels they got  should have far more bunk space available than that.



Really sounds like they're planning on doing a lot more then leaving them idling at the wharf...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin P said:
			
		

> The problem is that the CCG on this coast has no large ship tow capacity and there are very few tugs that do. The last incident with the Russian freighter, none the tugs available were certified to go that far out to rescue her. If LNGCanada continues to go ahead that will change for the North Coast as there will be several large modern escort tugs. When we rigged up the Pearkes to tow the Exxon tanker, we felt at best we would be able to hold her in position and that was in fairly calm weather. There has been a few incidents with pusher tugs out here with oil barges. We been lucky so far. The last freighter I am aware of going aground in the Queen Charlotte Islands was around 1956.
> It would have been better to help Smit and Seaspan out here to acquire a large tug each that would do normal work within an zone and be able to go out to respond to calls. The other option is to buy and man with CCG personal, anchor handling vessels that could do CCG NavAid and SAR work as well. Problem with that is no one wants to work with CCG anymore, pays sucks compared to industry when they actually manage to pay you. When LNGC kicks in they are going to suck up even more ticketed CCG personal as well.



An interesting article by Robert Allan:

'In conclusion, it is certainly feasible to consider a system of large rescue tugs to aid in the protection of the B.C. coastline,
but the economics of that operation are not trivial and the probability of an incident is very low.'

https://ral.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BCSN-14-12-Coastal-Protection.pdf


----------



## chrisf

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> An interesting article by Robert Allan:
> 
> 'In conclusion, it is certainly feasible to consider a system of large rescue tugs to aid in the protection of the B.C. coastline,
> but the economics of that operation are not trivial and the probability of an incident is very low.'
> 
> https://ral.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/BCSN-14-12-Coastal-Protection.pdf



The article assumes the sole task of a tug would be towing.

Towing is just a *capability* of the vessels they've leased, and the same of any future vessels they buy to do the same job.

The vessels are and will be multi-tasked.

For anyone interested, the tender solicitation

https://buyandsell.gc.ca/procurement-data/tender-notice/PW-MB-003-26699


----------



## Colin Parkinson

No Robert is quite clear that any such vessel should be able to be multi-tasked, but with deep sea towing as the primary design consideration. So you give up some other capability, such as icebreaking or buoy stowage, fuel economy. Also you have to teach and practice open ocean towing. Robert told me (we have cabins on the same island) that the Gordon Reid/John Jacobson was supposed to be bigger and the CCG deleted larger towing gear to save money.


----------



## Kirkhill

Is this something of the type envisioned?









> NoCGV Harstad
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Name:	NoCGV Harstad
> Namesake:	The town of Harstad
> Builder:	Søviknes yard
> Commissioned:	January 2005
> In service:	2009[1]
> Identification:
> IMO number: 9312107
> MMSI number: 259050000
> Callsign: JWBR
> Pennant number: W318
> Status:	Active
> 
> General characteristics
> Class and type:	Offshore Patrol Vessel
> Type:	Patrol and Oil recovery vessel
> Displacement:	3,121 long tons (3,171 t)
> Length:	270 ft (82 m)
> Beam:	51 ft (16 m)
> Depth:	6 m (20 ft)
> 
> Propulsion:
> Two Rolls-Royce Marine diesel engines, 4000kW each
> Two screws; one azimuth thruster, 883kW
> Speed:	18.4 knots (34.1 km/h; 21.2 mph)
> 
> Boats & landing
> craft carried:	2 x MOB boats type NORSAFE
> 
> Complement:	26
> 
> Armament:	40 mm Bofors
> 
> Notes:
> Crane: 15m/5 tons
> Modified to support the Nato Submarine Rescue System
> NoCGV Harstad is a purpose-built offshore patrol vessel for the Norwegian Coast Guard. She is named after the city Harstad in Northern Norway. As of May 2018, the commanding officer is Lt. Cmdr. Kyrre Einarsen.[1]
> 
> *Harstad was built as a multipurpose vessel, but optimised for emergency towing of large oil tankers (up to 200,000 tonnes deadweight (DWT)), oil spill clean-up and fire fighting. The most common duty will be fishery inspection and search and rescue in Norway's large exclusive economic zone. The steadily increasing traffic of large oil tankers along the Norwegian coast explains the need for this type of vessel.*
> 
> The vessel is built of high-end design. Designer is Rolls-Royce Marine AS, Dept. Ship Technology - Offshore Type: UT 512








Or perhaps the Natural Gas powered Barentshav?


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## Navy_Pete

Got to work with the USNS on the tow home for the Protecteur (from HI to BC); their approach is quite different for what you would do for a standard tug around the harbour or a short distance, and it was a great learning experience to see professionals at work. After seeing the USNS Salvor though, can't really imagine anything not designed primarily for open ocean towing being able to do the job.

The wikipedia page is here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Salvor

These guys are really impressive to see in action, and that winch is a big piece of kit. They are geared up for salvage/rescue, so also do diving and some other similar tasks, but would not want to do any kind of planned open ocean towing of a big ship without something of similar size and power.

I could see something like that being outfitted to be able to do some offshore work (environmental response? Basic SAR?) but tugs are built for bollard pull, not speed, so compromises to do other tasks can kill your primary role.

Given the desired uptick in vessel traffic they want to have with the pipeline port, would seem to be a reasonable precaution for those low likelihood/extreme impact risk scenarios with things running aground etc.


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## chrisf

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I could see something like that being outfitted to be able to do some offshore work (environmental response? Basic SAR?) but tugs are built for bollard pull, not speed, so compromises to do other tasks can kill your primary role.



Most of the Canadian Coast Guard vessels max out at 15-17kts, any off the shelf anchor handler design should be able to do the same.

With the exception of a lack of helicopter facilities (which really get less use than you might think), there's a lot of off-the-shelf OSV designs that are pretty well suited to most coast guard tasks.

Bollard pull aside, one of the big features an anchor handler (or off shore tug) has in terms of towing is constant tension winch.

You set the tension on the winch, and the drum will automatically pay-out/take up to maintain the constant tension.

Plus shark jaws and tow pins, a hydraulic system on deck for holding whatever you're towing while you're making or breaking connections on deck.

Oil recovery systems, fire fighting, and SAR are all usually part of any off the shelf design as well.


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## Colin Parkinson

For handling the bigger buoys you need a 10/5 ton crane with 2 hooks and a decent reach and swing area. Buoys are 9 tons and rocks are 3 tons.

here is my old ship hard at work, the chain drum is a east coast addition. The nice thing about this design is you have a good size hold to hold buoys, chains and anchors, along with other stuff. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIgjcbOkoag


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## Navy_Pete

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Most of the Canadian Coast Guard vessels max out at 15-17kts, any off the shelf anchor handler design should be able to do the same.
> 
> With the exception of a lack of helicopter facilities (which really get less use than you might think), there's a lot of off-the-shelf OSV designs that are pretty well suited to most coast guard tasks.
> 
> Bollard pull aside, one of the big features an anchor handler (or off shore tug) has in terms of towing is constant tension winch.
> 
> You set the tension on the winch, and the drum will automatically pay-out/take up to maintain the constant tension.
> 
> Plus shark jaws and tow pins, a hydraulic system on deck for holding whatever you're towing while you're making or breaking connections on deck.
> 
> Oil recovery systems, fire fighting, and SAR are all usually part of any off the shelf design as well.



Thanks for the info; pretty interesting to hear what the CCG does.  Hadn't previously looked up the ETVs; bigger than what I thought they were.  Remember seeing those ships around St. John's but didn't realize they had been repurposed for this contract in BC.


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## chrisf

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info; pretty interesting to hear what the CCG does.  Hadn't previously looked up the ETVs; bigger than what I thought they were.  Remember seeing those ships around St. John's but didn't realize they had been repurposed for this contract in BC.



They're well suited for what they've been contracted to do, at least as an interim solution.

They'll be a bit heavy on fuel consumption though. If they were to buy or build something in the future, they'd be well suited to go with a diesel-electric or hybrid option.

It's part of the reason they were available on the market, oil companies are paying more attention to fuel bills.

Coincidentally, Maersk Cutter is one of the more fuel efficient vessels that replaced them... 

http://tugfaxblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2016/01/maersk-cutter-finds-work.html?m=1

Maersk had also bid the Cutter for the ETV contract.


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## Uzlu

> Is the Canadian Coast Guard Underfunded?
> 
> “When there is more ice, you need more icebreakers. When there is less ice, you need more icebreakers.” At first, I was puzzled by this statement from a Canadian Coast Guard officer. The first part is obvious enough, the second part was less so. The reason for the second part is that when the ice starts to disappear, as is the case right now, the remaining ice starts moving unpredictably around by currents, tides and wind. Moving ice can prevent or delay the resupply of a community if there is not an available icebreaker to support the approach to that community.
> 
> Moving ice is what happened this past summer with expensive consequences. A significant amount of multi-year ice formed a plug in the Amundsen Gulf. Multi-year ice can be very thick and prevent even heavy icebreakers from getting through. That situation was a major factor in the failure to resupply a number of Arctic communities by barges. Some of the resupply had to be shipped by air at a cost of millions of dollars. Most of the heavy or bulky items such as vehicles and construction material will only be moved by the next shipping season causing delays to projects and logistical nightmares.
> 
> Unfortunately, the disappearing ice invites growing maritime traffic in the Arctic, including adventurers who may not be prepared for one of the most challenging environments on Earth. When the chief of defence staff states that when the Canadian Forces deployments to the Arctic are a form of expeditionary deployments people should pay attention. Too many come to the Arctic unprepared.
> 
> I was on board of the Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker _Louis St-Laurent_ in 2013 when the ship received a distress signal from a group of adventurers who thought that it would be cool to sea-doo across the Northwest Passage. They became ice-bound by moving ice and their camp was attacked by polar bears. This past summer, a sailboat sank in the Arctic near the Bellot Strait. Fortunately, the crew members managed to transfer to a large ice floe and were later rescued.
> 
> One of the problems adventurers create when they come unprepared is that they may trigger a distress signal which will divert a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker from their other duties. Apart from the significant cost to the Canadian taxpayers to rescue a party that is there for pleasure, it may very well delay the annual resupply of an Arctic community putting it at risk and/ or add significant cost to the companies like the Nunavut Eastern Arctic Shipping Inc. providing the resupply. Suzanne Paquin, president and chief executive officer, stated: “A community resupply delay because an icebreaker has been diverted to a distress call could cost our company as much as tens of thousands of dollars a day.”
> 
> Several maritime companies have criticized the availability of icebreaker support this past shipping season which experienced unusual difficult ice conditions. In 2018, the cruise ship _Akademik Ioffe_, operated by One Ocean Expeditions (OOE), grounded in the western gulf of Boothia on August 24. A Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker was dispatched to the scene as a precaution and remained onsite for three days. The cost to the taxpayers was more than $240,000 to support a tourist vessel which had sailed in uncharted waters.
> 
> This was the third cruise ship to run aground in the Arctic after the _Hanseatic_ in 1997 and the _Clipper Adventurer_ in 2010. Fortunately, there was no loss of life and only minor environmental impacts. With increasing activity in poorly-charted areas, our luck may soon run out.
> 
> Given the challenging conditions of the Arctic and the tremendous cost of search and rescue operations, it might be time to consider the requirement for those who wish to enter the Arctic to post bonds which would be forfeited should they trigger a search and rescue operation. The main reasons would be to force them to be better prepared given the inherent risks of the environment, discourage the less professional adventurers altogether and recover a portion of the cost incurred by the Canadian taxpayers when a rescue is triggered.
> 
> At the very least, Canada should consider a similar policy as in the case of the Nahanni National Park where “individuals who, through court proceedings, are found to be negligent, may be held responsible for the full cost of search and rescue.”
> 
> To make matters worse, the Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker fleet vessels are past their design life and require extensive refits and increased maintenance time, all of which reduces their availability. To the Canadian government’s credit the recent acquisition of three surplus icebreakers from Shell has improved the availability of icebreakers not only for Arctic operations but also for ice-breaking duties to maintain the Saint-Lawrence Seaway open during the winter season.
> 
> On December 14, 2018, it took delivery of CCGS _Captain Molly Kool_, the first of three newly-refitted medium icebreakers from Chantier Davie Canada Inc. Apart from the CCG _Diefenbaker_, which service date is slipping to the right, there is not a public plan to replace the aging fleet which averages 35 years of age. It could be that the Canadian Coast Guard is not funded properly to provide it with the resources necessary to perform their essential functions in the Arctic.
> 
> It has also been suggested that it may be better to move it to Transport Canada. Another option would be to move it back to the Department of National Defence where it used to be. That addition would improve the percentage of resources allocated to the defence of Canada and move us closer to the two percent of GDP pledge with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
> 
> The U.S. Coast Guard is part of their armed forces. Regardless of which department it should be with, there is an urgent need to fund the Canadian Coast Guard adequately so that it has the necessary resources to provide essential services in the Canadian Arctic at a time when the maritime activity is on the increase.
> 
> In an exciting development for the people of the Canadian Arctic, the Canadian Coast Guard has recently created a new regional office called CCG Arctic Region. Its headquarters is in Yellowknife, N.W.T. It is refreshing that now “Coast Guard arctic operational decisions will be made in the Arctic.”
> 
> The Department of National Defence is about to deploy a new family of Arctic Offshore Patrol Ships that will have a limited capability to operate in ice of up to one meter. The development will certainly add to the federal government assets in the Arctic but those ships are not designed to break ice in support of maritime activity. That function has to be done by a properly designed icebreaker.


https://www.maritime-executive.com/editorials/is-the-canadian-coast-guard-underfunded


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## Colin Parkinson

Coast Guard was never part of the Armed Forces, SAR was and still is a responsibility of the CF. CG was formed by amalgamating the Department of Transport and the RCAF Crashboats stations into the Coast Guard around 1962-64. 

Problem for a lot of people outside looking at the CG i they forget the other tasks such as Navaids, as you can suspect buoy tending is not high on the CF or Homeland Security priority list.


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## MarkOttawa

Latest on problems:


> How some coast guard ships stayed tied up when they could have been at work
> Social Sharing
> _Vessels tied up for 151 days when weather was 'within operational parameters,' document says_
> 
> There is more evidence suggesting Canadian coast guard mid-shore patrol vessels are a fair-weather fleet.
> 
> Documents obtained by CBC News show that during a one-year period, two mid-shore patrol vessels based in Nova Scotia were tied up for 151 days in weather conditions when they were supposed to be operable.
> 
> Last month, CBC revealed the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) is looking at installing stabilizers — blades that counteract the motion of waves — on its nine coast guard mid-shore vessels. This followed widespread complaints from crew about excessive rolling at sea.
> 
> Michael Grace, DFO's offshore surveillance supervisor, looked at sea conditions during the 165 days when two mid-shore vessels based in Nova Scotia were in port or anchored — from April 1, 2017, to March 31, 2018.
> 
> His briefing table on the "probabilities the vessels were being anchored based on wind speeds and sea conditions" was released to CBC under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> "The vessels frequently did not operate in winds in excess of 20 knots, sea states under 2 metres," the table compiled by Grace states.
> 
> In March 2018, the Dartmouth-based supervisor delivered the presentation at a joint management meeting of officials with the Canadian Coast Guard and DFO in Vancouver.
> 
> *DFO official studies wind speed, sea state*
> 
> The vessels, which are 42 metres long and seven metres wide, are known as the Hero class since each is named after an exemplary military, RCMP, coast guard or DFO officer.
> 
> The mid-shore patrol vessels are based on both the east and west coasts of Canada.
> 
> According to minutes of the meeting, Grace looked at wind speeds and sea conditions when the CCGS G Peddle and CCGS Corporal McLaren were ashore.
> 
> "The reported weather and sea state condition outlined in the table indicates that up to 91.5% of the in port/anchored time occurred within the stated operating parameters of the MSVP."
> 
> For primary missions in the Atlantic, like fishery patrols, the vessel is expected to sail in what is known as Sea State 5, which is three-metre seas and winds averaging 24 knots.
> 
> According to the table, "28.6% of the port/anchored time took place in weather conditions with winds of less than 20 knots and a sea state of 0.5 to 2.0 metres."
> 
> *Coast guard: no response*
> 
> The Canadian Coast Guard did not comment on Grace's report when contacted by CBC News...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canada-s-coast-guard-mid-shore-vessels-fair-weather-fleet-1.5061767



Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson

This is a Malaysian Coast Guard ship that my Uncle inlaw was Chief Officer on, note the A frame on the bacf, another was of buoy tending.
https://perkapalanmalaysia.com/2018/07/30/kapal-untuk-dijual-buoy-tender-vessel/


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## Kirkhill

Colin P said:
			
		

> This is a Malaysian Coast Guard ship that my Uncle inlaw was Chief Officer on, note the A frame on the bacf, another was of buoy tending.
> https://perkapalanmalaysia.com/2018/07/30/kapal-untuk-dijual-buoy-tender-vessel/



Question to you Colin.  What would happen to the stability issues if those Coast Guard Yellow structures were removed - to wit: the deck crane and the mast extension?


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## Colin Parkinson

Likely help a lot, but you lose the ability to launch a boat and lose Radar horizon, and create interference with the electronics. Better off to do Bilge keels, stabilizers and perhaps redeploy them elsewhere.


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## Kirkhill

Radars are only a quarter of the way up the mast as it is so your radar horizon wouldn't improve much.  And as to launching boats - stern ramp.

https://products.damen.com/en/ranges/stan-patrol/stan-patrol-4207
https://www.youtube.com/embed/njhxLcauNZ4?rel=0?autoplay=1


Or perhaps something like this


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## Colin Parkinson

Same problem, a smaller vessel designed to go fast is going to suffer in the North Atlantic in winter time. there is no free lunch in ship design.


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## Kirkhill

Point taken - but the vessel purchased as the Hero was the Damen Stan 4209 - which is the boat shown in the you tube video launching and recovering a RIB over the stern.

In addition, the official designation of the vessel is a Mid-Shore Patrol Vessel.  That neither suggests rolling around in deep water nor tending buoys.  Rather it suggests operations in sight of land in aid of the the police, fisheries and the environment.


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## STONEY

The Damen Stan 4209 is a perfectly good design used by several country's around the world including the US Coast Guard but when we bought the design and Canadianized it is when it was turned into a disaster. This is nothing new for CG HQ in Ottawa and continues today with problems in constructing new ships. You have to realize that most people in Ottawa don't know what a ship looks like let alone make decisions on design.
Cheers.


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## Colin Parkinson

That would not surprise me sadly. Here is a video of the 4209. I notice no pictures or video in heavy sea state



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8XZI4wCdjw


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Just a few points.

First, the US Coast Guard does not operate Damen 4209 boats, they operate Damen 4708 boats. Much bigger and fully equipped with stabilizers.

And that's my second point: Stabilizers. They're removed in the Canadian mods. A completely stupid and irrational idea. Small patrol vessels need them if they are to survive heavy seas. The mast (which is the standard one) and the boat boom make little difference. Removing the stabilizers was the biggie here.

Finally, There are no parts of the Canadian East Coast that do not involve going to sea in the North Atlantic's worse weather. I've said it before, but  I'll say it again: On the East Coast, there is no such thing as "coastal" or "inshore" or "mid-shore". You get out of harbour and you are in mid-atlantic conditions whether you want it or not - even when in sight of land. That is just the nature of our oceanic border there, and it is NOT the experience of other nations using the Stan designs near European land masse, or in the Mediterranean sea, or in the Caribbean's.

We should have been looking for a better ocean going design, had it been selected by someone who knows anything about the Atlantic border of Canada.


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## chrisf

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Question to you Colin.  What would happen to the stability issues if those Coast Guard Yellow structures were removed - to wit: the deck crane and the mast extension?



Both the mast and the crane serve important functions on the vessel, taking them off isn't an option.

Most of the equipment on a mast either needs height be effective (most of it antennas are either limited to line of sight, there's also several satellite antenna mounted that need a clear line of sight to the sky), and some need physical separation vertically from other equipment to work (particularly the radar)

If you could, it would lower the center of gravity of the vessel, which could help with stability, but it's not a stability issue so much as speed it rolls at.

Practically speaking, the weight of the mast and the crane isn't greatly significant compared to the rest of the vessel.

Bare in mind you've got a whole lot of things in the hull at and below the waterline you can't see in the picture....such as the engine, various machinery, and various tanks full of water and fuel.


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## Colin Parkinson

Useful video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eepu_owFHI


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## Uzlu

God Herself could come down from the heavens and demand lots of new ships immediately, and the government of Canada will claim that the Canadian Coast Guard is in great shape.





> Coast guard struggling to help with rescues, Arctic resupply due to old fleet
> 
> OTTAWA — Reduced search-and-rescue coverage, ferry-service disruptions, cancelled resupply runs to Arctic and coastal communities and nearly $2 million in lost navigational buoys.
> 
> Those are among the real safety, social and commercial impacts that communities across the country are starting to feel as the Canadian Coast Guard's fleet gets older, according to new documents obtained by The Canadian Press.
> 
> And the problems are expected to get worse: the documents warn that more than a third of the coast guard's 26 large vessels have exceeded their expected lifespans and many won't survive until replacements arrive.
> 
> "Vessels are at increasing risk of unrecoverable failure," reads one PowerPoint presentation prepared by coast guard officials last summer and marked "secret." "Many ships will not remain operational until their replacements arrive."
> 
> Obtained through the access-to-information law, the documents underline the stakes facing the federal government and various communities if Canada does not have a capable coast-guard fleet.
> 
> They come amid questions about how and when the government will replace the coast guard's existing vessels. Only five new coast-guard ships are currently included in the government's multibillion-dollar national shipbuilding plan.
> 
> The PowerPoint presentation is particularly frank in its assessment of what it describes as the "early impacts of an older fleet coupled with increasing demand" that are already visible.
> 
> "Over the past four years, lengthening repair periods and unplanned outages have temporarily reduced coverage in all four offshore search-and-rescue areas in Atlantic Canada," reads one section.
> 
> The coast guard has also lost nearly $2 million in navigational buoys in recent years "because they could not be removed due to ship availability and ice conditions," the presentation adds.
> 
> Ferry services have been interrupted, specifically Marine Atlantic's operations serving Newfoundland and commercial ships have been left waiting for days for icebreakers "at significant costs to industry."
> 
> Canada has also failed to meet its obligations under the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization in recent years for fisheries conservation and protection "due to repair and maintenance issues," the presentation says.
> 
> And the resupply of Arctic and coast communities have been delayed or cancelled — a problem that continued even after the presentation was prepared, as residents of three communities in the Northwest Territories can attest from last fall.
> 
> "I don't know why they couldn't have arranged an icebreaker," John Holland, senior administrative officer for the hamlet of Paulatuk, told The Canadian Press in October after one scheduled sea lift was cancelled.
> 
> The coast guard has a long history of being overlooked and ignored in political Ottawa, which is one of the key factors in the age of the agency's fleet, said Rob Huebert, an expert on the Arctic at the University of Calgary.
> 
> The presentation underscores the impact of such neglect, he said, namely real safety concerns, in the case of search-and-rescue services and lost navigational buoys, and northern communities cut off from supplies.
> 
> "We have talked in the past about an older coast-guard fleet and that there are problems (but) we can't get into details because the details are never presented," Huebert said. "This is the actual reality. This is what is happening."
> 
> Asked about the documents this week, Fisheries Minister Jonathan Wilkinson insisted in a statement the fleet "remains reliable" and the federal government "takes the renewal of the coast-guard fleet seriously."
> 
> Ottawa recently bought three second-hand icebreakers to pick up some of the slack, he noted, while the multibillion-dollar national shipbuilding plan includes money for one icebreaker and four science ships for the coast guard.
> 
> "We will continue to look at solutions so that Canadians can continue to receive the services they need," Wilkinson added.
> 
> Yet exactly when Seaspan Shipyards in Vancouver will deliver the five ships included in the national shipbuilding plan remains uncertain, let alone when the government will decide how and when to replace the rest of the fleet.
> 
> Seaspan was supposed to deliver the first of three fisheries-science vessels in early 2017 before problems were found with the ship's welding. It then crashed into a breakwater last month while returning from its first test run at sea.
> 
> Government officials say they still anticipate receiving that science ship this summer and that the other two will follow over the next year or so. Even if that happens, there is no firm schedule for the new heavy icebreaker and other science vessel to arrive.
> 
> Seaspan has also been tapped to build two new supply ships for the navy, the first of which won't be delivered until at least 2023.
> 
> Meanwhile, Seaspan and its Quebec-based rival Davie have been engaged in a fierce behind-the-scenes battle over the contracts for 10 other coast-guard ships that were promised to the Vancouver yard in 2013.
> 
> Seaspan has all but warned that its survival is contingent on building those ships, which were initially estimated to cost $3.3 billion.
> 
> Davie, however, has pointed out that Seaspan won't be able to start work on the ships for years and wants the government to shift the business to Davie.


https://www.lillooetnews.net/coast-guard-struggling-to-help-with-rescues-arctic-resupply-due-to-old-fleet-1.23783814


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I wonder if the plans for the 1100 class are still around, a quick update and Davie could start on a set of 3 of those in short order.


----------



## Czech_pivo

Colin P said:
			
		

> I wonder if the plans for the 1100 class are still around, a quick update and Davie could start on a set of 3 of those in short order.



With the UK having some many issues with Brexit, I say that we petition ourselves to become a Colony once again and let them make all our defense decisions.  Simply position a half dozen to a dozen of the UK ICBM's on the Colony's soil and allow UK nuc sub's to patrol through the Arctic and we'll be good.   Clearly over the last 50-60yrs we have failed miserably at our own attempts.......


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## YZT580

They wouldn't want us.  Honestly, would you voluntarily accept responsibility for making sense out of Ottawa?


----------

