# Pharmacy Officer



## JimMorrison19

I was just looking into the occupation and thought it might be interesting to do, but I can't find much information that isn't tied in with MOs and medics. Anyone have any experience as one?


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## dapaterson

It's a very small trade.  Per the Occupational Specification, "PHARM Officers must have been granted a Baccalaureate of pharmacy from a Canadian accredited university.  They must have completed their provincial pharmacy licensing body requirements, have a current provincial patient care license to practice pharmacy and have successfully completed the Pharmaceutical Examining Board of Canada exam".  Not sure whether ROTP offers Pharmacy as an option or not.


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## medicineman

I've worked for military pharmacists as a tech - lots of paperwork, especially if you're a stand alone.  Lots of having to deal with ever changing military and civilian medical supply systems - you approve orders for supplies and equipment, manage equipment forecasts and wishlists,  are responsible for medical supply accounts for your unit as well as lodger ones, pay bills and somewhere in there have to do patient care/counselling and ensure shelves are stocked as well (which is why there are techs).  There are also other duties and staff positions that you could or have to fill, such as equipment acquisition, teaching, developing scopes of practice for med techs, PA's, nurses, etc.  I can't say for certain if ROTP scholarships are available, however if you're already a serving member/officer, there is a sponsorship plan available for qualified personnel to go to pharmacy school on the Crown's tab.

Hope that helps - if you have more questions, PM me and I'll see if I can answer them for you.

Cheers.

MM


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## medicineman

geo said:
			
		

> The CF does not maintain any hospitals in Canada.  NDMC in Ottawa & base hospitals (eg: Valcartier) are no longer accredited as "hospitals".... more like clinics.  Not much of a need for pharmacists if you ask me



About that - each of those clinics have a pharmacy and therefore need pharamacists and techs to run them properly.  The pharmacist's role isn't just doling out pills - they are an integral part of the CF Medical Supply System.  As much as I hate bean counters, they're a necessary evil.

MM


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## PMedMoe

Surprising that the PharmO trade is on the list of trades to receive a recruiting bonus, but what I heard from my last BSurg is that they need to bring their pay up to be on a par (or better) than their civilian counterparts.


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## medicineman

I'd have to agree, seeing as they have to spend somewhat longer in school than some other occupations.

MM


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## JimMorrison19

Thanks for the replies - according to the reading I've done there is ROTP available for a pharmacy degree, just not for the RMC - I'd probably end up at Dalhousie or Memorial for it. I was wondering about it because it's looking like I don't actually qualify with my vision for infantry or engineering, but after looking over my other options and hoping I am still a V4 with vision, I'm not all that concerned about joining for all of the macho image and would enjoy being a pharmacist as that's right up my alley. I also see according to the CF website that it's an occupation in high-demand... and I'd like to help fill the demand if I can ever qualify for the forces.


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## medicineman

All the power to you - if there is ROTP available and you can get accepted into a program, I'd say go for it.  Good luck.

MM


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## MedCorps

Yep... ROTP Pharmacy Officer is available.  

I have worked with lots of them who went the ROTP route in order to enter the MOC. 

Good luck, it is a rewarding MOC with lots of opportunities, especially right now. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## JimMorrison19

Thanks guys - let's hope my vision is at least V4.


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## JimMorrison19

I am definitely not a V3, it turns out - 20/400 in my bad eye and like... 20/300 in the other, correctable to 20/20... so I guess that pegs me at V4. If I'm wrong, well crud. At this point I'm looking into joining under ROTP as a pharmacist, with aerospace engineering and logistics as backup choices. Considering the current pharmacy trend (read: high demand) and assuming it continues, would it be reasonable for me to still hope one day I could transfer to one of the combat trades if I had laser eye surgery and all that jazz, or does being in an occupation with dire need basically screw OTs?


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## MedCorps

Generally if a trade is "RED" is is closed to voluntary occupational transfer out.  

Pharmacy Officer is red currently.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## JimMorrison19

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Generally if a trade is "RED" is is closed to voluntary occupational transfer out.
> 
> Pharmacy Officer is red currently.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MC



I figured. That's not such a bad thing, though. I'm assuming pharmacists still see (or would see) tours overseas and such?


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## MedCorps

Yep... we never seem to have enough Pharmacy Officers to go around.  They get deployed frequently on big tours & DART deployments alike. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## JimMorrison19

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Yep... we never seem to have enough Pharmacy Officers to go around.  They get deployed frequently on big tours & DART deployments alike.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MC



I see you're a Major - which part of the medical group are you?


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## Armymedic

If there are any real pharmacists out there, perhaps you could explain the difference between cholinergic and and adrenergic drugs to me, and then break each to understandable sub groups?

please?  :-\


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## pharmadude

Hey guys, new to the forum.  Just wondering if anyone has any info on the DEO route for a Pharmacy Officer?  I'm considering enlisting with an initial posting of either Cold Lake or Ottawa.  What's the day to day grind like in this position? Training? Any info you could provide would be most helpful.  Thanks!


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## mariomike

I hope this helps:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/79281/post-752939#msg752939


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## pharmadude

that does help...thanks.  Anyone have any experience/comments on what a Cold Lake posting would have in store?  I have a young family, and I've never been to the place before.  Seems ok, but...?


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## mariomike

pharmadude said:
			
		

> that does help...thanks.  Anyone have any experience/comments on what a Cold Lake posting would have in store?  I have a young family, and I've never been to the place before.  Seems ok, but...?



My sister and her husband have been stationed there for many years. They like it a lot, will retire there. They raised a family there.


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## medaid

pharmadude,

Unfortunately you will be stationed where the CF stations you. You don't really have a choice especially if it's your first posting. Your young family has got to do without you for a while, since you'll be away for your basic, then learder ship, then the specialist courses for your MOC. 

Think hard.


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## FDO

I can hook you up with the CF Pharmacy Recruiter. He can give you all the ins and outs. I believe hs's out west this week.  Send me a PM if you want his info. 

By the way my son and his wife were in Cold Lake for several years and couldn't wait to get out. I've been to the west coast and couldn't wait to get back east. Like anywhere else in the world some people are going to like it some are going to hate it. You have to make your own decisions.


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## pharmadude

Thanks for all the feedback guys, much appreciated!

MEDTECH:  you seem to be indicating not a good choice for a guy with a young family....speaking from personal experience or others you've seen?


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## FDO

If you asked most of the people in theNavy they would tell you that Army is NOT the way to go. If you asked the Army they would tell you that you are baked if you want to go to sea. "It's not good if you have a young family". Both my wife and I are in the Navy and my son is in the AirForce. No one on here can tell you what's good or not for you. As a Pharacist you will work Monday to Friday 7:30 am to 3:30 pm with an hour for lunch and 3 hours a week for PT. Thats a 32 hour week. What Pharmacy will give you that on the outside? 

I was talking with the CF Pharmacy recruiter today and he told me that Cold Lake and Edmonton will probably not need a Pharmacist in the next year or so as one is being sent to Cold Lake in the New Year and Edmonton has no openings. Petawawa has openings as do several other bases in Canada.

 You and you alone will decide if 23 hours a week during the week are better or worse than 40 - 50 hours a week working weekends and evenings. 

PM inbound


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## medaid

pharmadude said:
			
		

> MEDTECH:  you seem to be indicating not a good choice for a guy with a young family....speaking from personal experience or others you've seen?



No, not at all. What I'm saying by "think hard" is just that. You will be apart from your family for quite a bit during your initial training period, and not to mention that your postings may be all over the map. West coast, East coast and all areas in between. Since you brought up the point of having a young family, you just have to think hard on your decisions and see if you're willing to subject them through the military life. 

We have a short in the Health Services branch for PHARM O and your skills, should you decide to join will be sought after and much needed, all over the place. 

H Svc is purple. You're your MOC first, and element second.


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## pharmadude

Thanks for the feedback everyone....lots to think about.  If it were just me I would jump in both feet and not look back.  But lots more to think of with two little ones.  I suppose it'd be different if I was in the Forces the whole time, but this will be a switch.  But hey, love what you do and the rest falls in to place....right?


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## FDO

I meant 32 hours a week not 23. Plenty of time left in the week to do stuff with the family. It will be tough in the beginning but your family will be with other families in the same situation so they tend to help each other through the tough stuff. Plus now that we have all the really cool computer stuff like Skype and MSN you can talk face to face with the fa mily every night so it doesn't seem so long apart.


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## pepPharm

HI all,

I am a licensed pharmacist and looking for something new 

As I can see on jobs.gc.ca, DND is hiring for pharmacists. I am quite aware of the DEO through CF as well, but I will say that the civilian route is more appealing to me at the moment (but that could change!). 

I've tried researching, and did get a few hits from the Canadian Pharmacists Journal, the Recruitment page and a study where CF re-imbursed for over-the-counter medications directly through community pharmacies. Other than that, I haven't found very much information on the positions directly, especially on the DND end. 

I am curious, how much will the two positions vary? What's available to the DND RPH that isn't to the CF and vice versa?
How will they compare to a "typical" community or hospital pharmacist position?
Will the DND pharmacist generally be limited in their career growth, or is there potential for more senior positions?
When the CF is able to recruit a sufficient number of Pharmacist Officers, might the DND pharmacists be laid-off and replaced with Pharmacist Officers?
As a civilian pharmacist, would one still have the opportunity to do, I'll call them "stints", overseas? or at other bases on an as-needed relief basis?
Could anyone provide more info as to which bases/locations have openings with the DND?
Anything else you think I should be aware of?

Generally, the issues with enlisting are lack of control over location, and not really wanting to jump into something that might not be right for me, but as I said, that could change with being with the DND for a bit and seeing what it's like if the positions are indeed similar. Overall, the CF offer is a very good one (in my opinion) from what I've read, and compensation, CPP bridge benefits, getting paid to learn french, soldier training nor working hours are the issues!!!

Mainly, I am interested in drug utilization, reimbursement and overseeing drug distribution. I have no issues with, and do enjoy patient care, but I see myself as someone managing and overseeing big infrastructure operations, like a health system,  in my future career and that is definitely where CF/DND appeal to me.

Any comments (or PMs if you choose) are appreciated.


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## Otis

PM Inbound


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## bry4nfl

According to the Forces website, there are four kinds of annual salaries for Officers, but which one ( except Pilot of course ) does the Pharmacist fall into?

Basic or physician/dentist grade?

Thanks in advance, any assistance in finding this would be greatly appreciated.

Reference:
http://www.forces.ca/media/_PDF/PayScalesOffReg_en.pdf

CFJSR Sig


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## ModlrMike

As they are neither Physicians nor Dentists by profession, they are therefore General Service Officers and paid as such.


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## CountDC

and just so you have the info:

Pharmacy Officer
SPECIAL COMMENTS
Recruiting allowances

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacist enrolling as a “Direct Entry Officer” may be offered a recruiting allowance of up to $50,000 depending on the difference between the number of existing trained military pharmacists and the desired number. The amount will be set out in the offer message, which the applicant will have 30 days to accept. In addition, pharmacists are enrolled with a rank of captain and an advantageous rate of pay. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacy student enrolling under the “Regular Officer Training Plan” may be offered a recruiting allowance. The amount of the allowance varies according to the number of months of publicly subsidized education the student must undergo prior to becoming licensed as follows:

36 months or more : $10,000

more than 24 months but less than 36 months: $20,000

more than 12 months but less than 24 months: $30,000

less than 12 months: $40,000 (or $50,000 if there is a severe shortage of pharmacists at that point)

In addition, a candidate is provided with an officer cadet's rank and salary, and payment for tuition, instruments, supplies, and books. During the summer months, candidates undergo officer training. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.


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## justmyalias

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As they are neither Physicians nor Dentists by profession, they are therefore General Service Officers and paid as such.


One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?

Pretty blunt about it?

I was personally surprised when I first learned this myself.  I certainly would've expected them to be paid according to a similarly *special* pay grade.  After all...as a private sector employee, their salary is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the military.

The novelty of 'the thrill of being a military pharmacists' can only tie one over so long no?  Cash is king after all.


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## dapaterson

Entry level pharmacists are not making huge salaries.  From http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html, the top wage for a pharmacist in Canada is around $108K - some make less than half that.  A Captain with 5 years in rank will make $82500, plus a significant benefits package - pension, full dental and medical, dependents medical and dental, professional memberships paid, ongoing professional development paid...

Overall, military payscales for pharmacists are competitive for the majority of pharmacists.


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## aesop081

justmyalias said:
			
		

> Cash is king after all.



For you maybe. Others, maybe not.


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## ModlrMike

justmyalias said:
			
		

> One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?



One would be wrong!



			
				justmyalias said:
			
		

> Pretty blunt about it?



Simply a statement of fact. MOs and DOs have separate pay scales from GSOs.


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## justmyalias

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ... plus a significant benefits package - pension, full dental and medical, dependents medical and dental, professional memberships paid, ongoing professional development paid...
> ...


There's certainly no denying that the benefits are definately awesome.


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## CountDC

let's not forget that some get to be a Pharmacist because the military has paid for their education too.


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## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> From http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html,



If you type "Pharmacist" into the search engine, this may be helpful. These are 2008 salaries. The 2009 list should be out any day now. These are public sector employers only:
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2009/


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## dapaterson

The listing of pers making over $100K in Ontario is not representative - since, after all, it includes only people making over $100K.

Given that a Major pharamcist in the CF could be making over $100K there is no issue here.


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## Simplicity319

Hi guys  

I've been a lurker on these forums for a while now...reading your posts has been useful and informative for me. It really helped me understand what military is like, and helped me to understand what my boyfriend is going through. I just have a quick question that I can't seem to really find an answer on the Canadian Forces website or on this forum.  My boyfriend's enrolled under the ROTP as a pharmacy student, and this summer he's off to do his Military Occupational Training...I was wondering if anybody knows how long that trainng is. I know it differs for different specialties, but a general range would be appreciated.

Thanks!


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## FDO

If he is doing BMOQ it will be 14 weeks. If he is doing some trades training it will be from the time school is out in April until school is back in September, minus any annual leave he wants to take.


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## Simplicity319

Oh he did his BMOQ last summer...so I'm just wondering how long the "trades training" portion is. It seems like I can't find the answer anywhere on the CF website!


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## Humphrey Bogart

Well if he is a pharmacist and he already did BMOQ I am assuming that he is going on an OJT this summer, OJT means On Job Training

Most likely he will be spending a few months posted to a pharmacy within the CF learning the ropes of being a Pharmacist in the CF.  On that note, I was not aware that Pharmacy was open to candidates under the ROTP program.


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## Simplicity319

He's not a pharmacist yet =P Just a pharmacy student. And yes the ROTP for pharmacy officer is offered to students (it is a job that's in demand, according to the site). Ah, so it'll look like this on the job training will take the bulk of the summer, as with BMOQ. Thanks for the info guys!


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## Sigil

I hope this is an appropriate place to ask this. I was looking through the CF pharmacist profile and saw that pharmacists have an "advantageous rate of pay." Since pharms are neither docs nor dentists and aren't on the MO/DO payscales, can someone tell me what this advantageous rate of pay might be?


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## Chilme

Here's a start:

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacist enrolling as a “Direct Entry Officer” may be offered a recruiting allowance of up to $50,000 depending on the difference between the number of existing trained military pharmacists and the desired number. The amount will be set out in the offer message, which the applicant will have 30 days to accept. In addition, pharmacists are enrolled with a rank of captain and an advantageous rate of pay. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.

Effective April 1, 2007, a pharmacy student enrolling under the “Regular Officer Training Plan” may be offered a recruiting allowance. The amount of the allowance varies according to the number of months of publicly subsidized education the student must undergo prior to becoming licensed as follows:

36 months or more : $10,000
more than 24 months but less than 36 months: $20,000
more than 12 months but less than 24 months: $30,000
less than 12 months: $40,000 (or $50,000 if there is a severe shortage of pharmacists at that point)
In addition, a candidate is provided with an officer cadet's rank and salary, and payment for tuition, instruments, supplies, and books. During the summer months, candidates undergo officer training. The applicant must agree to undertake 4 years of obligatory service.


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## Gunner98

This is what you are looking for: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp

204.03(10) (Rate of pay – Military Chaplain or Pharmacy Training Plan) After July 2008, an officer, other than an officer paid under CBI 204.21 (Pay – Officers – General Officers, Colonels and General Service Officers), who is enrolled in the Military Chaplain or Pharmacy Training Plan, shall be paid as a General Service Officer at the rate of pay for the rank of captain in CBI 204.21 at the pay increment determined under CBI 204.015 (Pay Increments).

So Pharmacists (and Chaplains) in training are paid the same rate as a Capt non-pharmacist.


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## dapaterson

However, former professional experience can be recognized with increased pay increments on completion of military training.

As well, the military pays for licensing, insurnace, and ongoing professional development fvor pharmacists, and provides a defined benefit pension plan; one has to look at the overall compensation package, and not only the pay scale.


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## Sigil

Thanks for the replies guys. I think Simian Turner did find what I was looking for. I assume what they mean by a pharmacist in training is one who has graduated from school and met licensing requirements?


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## Gunner98

Yes, and you would be paid as a Capt while you are undergoing general military training such as Basic Field Health Services course and Basic Health Care Admin course.

Candidates who enrolled under the Direct Entry plan will be commissioned as Officer Cadets, but paid as Second Lieutenants. Upon successful completion of Basic Training, they will be promoted to the rank of Captain, and paid as a Captain backdated to their date of enrolment, minus any Leave Without Pay.  http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pharmacyofficer-48#education-2


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## Rocknroll

I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.


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## Neill McKay

Does ROTP not also cover the cost of living in residence?


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## Occam

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.



If someone is coming in off the street straight out of high school into the ROTP pharmacy program, then you're getting a fully subsidized university education and OCdt salary - who else gives you that?

If someone already has a degree, but is choosing to not use it and enters ROTP under the pharmacy program, then the above also applies - why should you get a higher salary when you aren't working in your previous "chosen" field?

MOTP/DOTP students have already completed degree programs in the process of becoming medical students, and are using the knowledge and skills acquired during the undergraduate degree - therefore, they would deserve a higher salary.


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## MedCorps

N. McKay said:
			
		

> Does ROTP not also cover the cost of living in residence?



Not if you are going to a civilian university. 

MC


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## PD

I already have a degree. I would like to consider becoming a pharmacist.  Currently I am an NCM.
How would I go about this.
a) Do I apply for a University before hand and get accepted?
b) Would I just request through CoC to apply?


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## ballz

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Not if you are going to a civilian university.
> 
> MC



Not if you are going to RMC either. If you go to RMC you pay for R&Q.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts. I also think the ROTP program is not very attractive to pharmacy students. How are you supposed to convince someone who is likely in their early 20s or older, has done at least a year or two in university -- and maybe has a degree -- to agree to an Officer Cadet salary? It's not really enough to live on in cities like Toronto or Vancouver, and they lose out on higher paying work in the summer due to CF obligations. I get that it's not all about the money, but it has to be at least a little about the money...look at the salaries MOTP/DOTP students enjoy.



Biased much?

You think people with "a year or two in university" are being ripped off getting paid 20k or more a year, plus tuition/books/supplies (which can easily be another 10k a year)? And if they live in Toronto/Vancouver they enjoy ~10-12k a year PLD as well... You think someone with "a year or two in university" can make substantially more than that on the civie side?

Even many degrees, as some unfortunate arts and business students find out, will not get you 40k a year starting out. So, even if they have a degree already, they still might not be making more in the civilian world, plus they'd actually have to work as opposed to just going to school.

Pharmacists Pharmacist students aren't that special. They're being offered one generous signing bonus more than most GSOs already. You're right the frig outta 'er if you think they should be getting the same deals as Medical Os.


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## Occam

PD said:
			
		

> I already have a degree. I would like to consider becoming a pharmacist.  Currently I am an NCM.
> How would I go about this.
> a) Do I apply for a University before hand and get accepted?
> b) Would I just request through CoC to apply?



Neither.

Look around for "UTPNCM".


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## medicineman

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I think pharmacists should be paid more. I suspect a major reason why the CF is finding it difficult to attract pharmacists is because they aren't paid comparably to their civilian counterparts.



I liken stuff like that to people that think MO's don't make that much money compared to their civilian counterparts - if you're a pharmacist or GDMO in the military, your salary is yours - you have no overhead to pay like rent and salary for staff, etc.  Gross pay might not work out, but they tend to net an awful lot more.

And BTW, anyone going to school would kill to have everything paid for AND make a salary at the same time AND be debt free at the end of it all - again, more money in their pockets.  Give your head a shake.

MM


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## dapaterson

Entry-level pharmacy jobs in the private sector are late hours and low pay - you're the one working the desirable midnight to 8am shift for barely above minimum wage.

A military pharmacist at age 40 will likely be a mid-ranking major, pulling in over 100K income, plus pension, plus a benefits package.  On deployments overseas, additional allowances are paid, plus there's the possiblity that your pay (or a portion of it) will be tax free.

The military also pays for your licensing and practice insurance; pays for your ongoing training; offers other professional development opportunities such as paid studies with a masters in health management or an MBA.


You are correct - the pay for a military pharmacist isn't competitive with the private sector.  It's head and shoulders above.


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## justmyalias

justmyalias said:
			
		

> One would be quick to conclude that you don't care much for pharmacists?
> 
> Pretty blunt about it?
> 
> I was personally surprised when I first learned this myself.  I certainly would've expected them to be paid according to a similarly *special* pay grade.  After all...as a private sector employee, their salary is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in the military.
> 
> The novelty of 'the thrill of being a military pharmacists' can only tie one over so long no?  Cash is king after all.


I can't believe someone reported this post. :facepalm:

I'm on a dozen-odd forums., post about a thousand times more there than on here, and this is the one I get dinged on, lol.  Go Figure.


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## mariomike

For reference, if interested.
Public Sector Salary Disclosure for 2010 : Hospitals and Boards of Public Health : pharmacist
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2011/hospit11.pdf

It only shows those who made the Sunshine List. Your results may vary.


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## justmyalias

justmyalias said:
			
		

> I can't believe someone reported this post. :facepalm:
> 
> I'm on a dozen-odd forums., post about a thousand times more there than on here, and this is the one I get dinged on, lol.  Go Figure.


According to the links above, the 2007 stats for Ottawa Ontario is 37., but in the para just above it-says the average hourly rate for Feb 2011 was $14???  I don't understand why there's such a difference.  I can't believe that pharmacists work for that little...$30-$40 I can buy...but $14???



> The average weekly earnings for the retail trade sector as a whole were $505.92 in February 2011, an increase of 1.9% on the previous year when average weekly earnings were $496.34. Assuming an average working week of 36 hours, hourly average earnings in this sector for February 2011 were $14.05


Unless, some would have worked 10hours only, (making the hourly more on $40/hr), but the stats still divided by 36??  Would that be at all possible?  How incorrect of a manner to represent those stats heh?


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## Rocknroll

*Occam:*

It's my understanding that you cannot "just come in off the street" into a ROTP pharmacy program. You must be accepted into a pharmacy school, and those schools require at least one and possibly two or three years of university before you are eligible to apply. At least one drug chain will give you 50,000 dollars in school if you agree to work for them afterward for 4 years. I think the starting wage was around 90,000 per year (on top of the recruitment bonus) for a new grad.

And don't get me wrong...I'm not saying pharmacy students should receive the same pay as medical or dentistry students, but pharmacists make well above what most professions do. I'd put it on a level similar to law, which, coincidentally enough, has its own payscale.

*Ballz:*

Not ripped off, but pharmacy students have a lot of options. There are hefty offers and signing bonuses from drug chains, they have student lines of credit that are beyond what the average arts or science student can get. And don't forget a licensed pharmacist will make close to or over 100k. It's not an average degree program, and should be compensated in a similar fashion to how law, medicine, and dentistry are. I'm not saying the same as medical students, but if you don't offer at least close to what they can make civie side...well, get used to pharmacist shortages.

*Dapaterson:*

You are absolutely mistaken on what pharmacists make. Barely above minimum wage? Perhaps you are thinking of pharmacy technicians....although even they make between 20-30 dollars an hour. I don't know any pharmacists that HAVE to work late night shifts. I would guess they either prefer it, don't mind it, or make more because of it. I do know of pharmacies that close early because the pharmacist(s) won't work late nights.

-----

Let me just reiterate my argument again to be clear. I am not saying pharmacists should make as much as medical or dental officers. Legal officers don't make as much either, yet they still have a separate payscale...
You cannot enter a pharmacy program right out of high school (unless you apply and are accepted to a 6 year program). It is like law, medicine and dentistry in the fact that you must complete a number of years of university coursework, as well as certain science prereqs to apply. Further, a pharmacy grad stands to earn MUCH more than your average grad. There is a current and chronic shortage of pharmacists in the CF according to what I've heard.

From all of that, it makes sense to me to offer pharmacists an educational and professional compensation package that is more in line with what they would make civie side. I know there are people who will disagree, and that's fine. To those people I would ask, though...why is it the CF has trouble attracting and retaining pharmacists?


----------



## Occam

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *Occam:*
> 
> It's my understanding that you cannot "just come in off the street" into a ROTP pharmacy program. You must be accepted into a pharmacy school, and those schools require at least one and possibly two or three years of university before you are eligible to apply. At least one drug chain will give you 50,000 dollars in school if you agree to work for them afterward for 4 years. I think the starting wage was around 90,000 per year (on top of the recruitment bonus) for a new grad.
> 
> And don't get me wrong...I'm not saying pharmacy students should receive the same pay as medical or dentistry students, but pharmacists make well above what most professions do. I'd put it on a level similar to law, which, coincidentally enough, has its own payscale.



According to the recruiting website, you're mostly incorrect.  A pharmacy student can be enrolled into ROTP if they have unconditional acceptance into one of the degree-granting Canadian Colleges of Clinical Pharmacy.  See http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pharmacyofficer-48#info-1.

I know the recruiting website can have out of date information, but I believe pharmacy officers were "in-demand" not that long ago, so the information is likely current.


----------



## Rocknroll

Occam said:
			
		

> According to the recruiting website, you're mostly incorrect.  A pharmacy student can be enrolled into ROTP if they have unconditional acceptance into one of the degree-granting Canadian Colleges of Clinical Pharmacy.  See http://www.forces.ca/en/job/pharmacyofficer-48#info-1.
> 
> I know the recruiting website can have out of date information, but I believe pharmacy officers were "in-demand" not that long ago, so the information is likely current.



Not incorrect at all, Occam. You cannot be accepted into any Canadian pharmacy program without at least 1 year of university coursework, and often 2 or 3 (depends on the school).


----------



## Michael OLeary

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> From all of that, it makes sense to me to offer pharmacists an educational and professional compensation package that is more in line with what they would make civie side. I know there are people who will disagree, and that's fine. To those people I would ask, though...why is it the CF has trouble attracting and retaining pharmacists?



Unfortunately, there is unlikely to be anyone here that can answer your question except to say that's how it is under the current pay structure.  It would be up to the Pharmacist occupation to make a case that would substantiate and justify a different pay scale for their occupation. One possible factor for that case may well be to improve the ability for the trade to attract and retain people. Until they achieve that, they will remain General Service Officers for the purposes of pay because there's no-one in DND or Treasury Board tracking civilian pay scale and automatically adjusting CF pay rates for individual trades.


----------



## ballz

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> Not incorrect at all, Occam. You cannot be accepted into any Canadian pharmacy program without at least 1 year of university coursework, and often 2 or 3 (depends on the school).



Big friggin' deal. There are tons of programs that require you to have a year of coursework and certain pre-reqs done to get into the programs, not just pharmacy, med, dental, and law. You're grabbing at straws trying to compare it to med and law, because to get into one of those programs (probably dental too) without already having a degree your chances are between slim and none, and slim skipped town. People get into pharmacy after one year ALL THE TIME and I've never heard of a pharmacy program that had a minimum requirement of a degree.

What about Log O's with their CAs, CMAs, etc? I guess professional accountants don't fit in your "elite" class that makes over 100k a year so you just forgot about Log O's? I guess having to have an accounting degree and three years work experience just to start writing the tests to get into the program can't match a pharmacy program's requirement of 1 year of prereqs.

You obviously didn't even read or pay attention to half the stuff that's been said if you're going to use the 100k a year argument.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> At least one drug chain will give you 50,000 dollars in school if you agree to work for them afterward for 4 years. I think the starting wage was around 90,000 per year (on top of the recruitment bonus) for a new grad.



I see the university's marketing scheme has worked well. Rather than bitch and complain, go ahead and join the privacy sector, and enjoy your reality check when you get out of university and into the real world.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I'd put it on a level similar to law



I don't know whether to laugh or cry...


----------



## medicineman

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> To those people I would ask, though...why is it the CF has trouble attracting and retaining pharmacists?



I would hazard to guess it's because they often get employed doing non-pharmacist stuff, like medical equipment management at a staff level, which isn't exactly patient care, or even pushing dope - it's dealing with equipment scales (which is a little scary as an aside, since alot of them haven't a schmick what and why we use some things or even need them...makes it easier for them to refuse requests for things I guess) as a medical supply officer.  Some actually like the staff work, but alot don't.  The other issue is that we don't have active hospitals anymore, so there isn't as much clinical pharmacy work being done, which alot of folks like.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Rocknroll

*Michael O'Leary:*

I know, and your points are well taken. My question was just asked with the hope that people might look at it and think: hmm...why is it difficult for the CF to maintain a desired number of pharmacists? What factors are relevant here? And in case my posts have been construed as complaints without offering anything positive, let me say that from what I know, pharmacists in the CF enjoy a scope of professional practice and opportunity that is hard to match in retail. And that is definitely worth something. Pay is always going to be an issue, though. It's something the higher ups need to consider when it comes to recruitment and retention, in my opinion.

*ballz:*

Tell me where students are getting into pharmacy school with one year of university ALL THE TIME? Certainly not in Ontario. Are you aware that pharmacy will soon become a professional doctorate degree program and already is in Quebec? You seem to have an attitude towards pharmacy for some reason....I have no idea why that is. Log Os do not require a CA designation to be employed as a Log O. Pharmacists are required to have a pharmacy degree and pass licensing requirements to be employed as pharmacy officer. Big difference. Also, I'd like to see the Chartered Accountant that would work for 70k a year. Sorry, but your argument is flawed.

And I don't know if _you've_ been paying attention to what's been said, but I haven't made any sort of 100k a year argument. My argument is simply occupations that require highly skilled individuals who command high salaries need to be compensated in a manner that reflects that in the CF...or you will have recruitment problems. No 100k threshold or any other number is the test. If you are wondering why I kept mentioning 100k, it is because that is what a new pharmacy grad can expect to earn, more or less... significantly more than an OC or young Capt.

Again, you seem to be labouring under the assumption that pharmacy grads compete with art history majors for jobs. They do not. What I have told you is indeed the real world.

And laugh or cry, it makes no difference to me. Although do you know, strictly speaking, you can be a lawyer in less time than it takes to be a pharmacist? Have you looked at what the average salary of lawyers in Canada is? I'm just curious why you seem to put law on pedestal and attempt to discredit pharmacy...

*medicineman:*

If that is the case, why aren't newer pharmacists coming up to replace those who have moved to other positions...without shortage problems? If the demand has lessened due to hospital closures and the like, why is pharmacy still an in demand trade (with a recruiting bonus for the last 4 years, no less)?


----------



## Strike

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *medicineman:*
> If the demand has lessened due to hospital closures and the like, why is pharmacy still an in demand trade (with a recruiting bonus for the last 4 years, no less)?





			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> I would hazard to guess it's because they often get employed doing non-pharmacist stuff, like medical equipment management at a staff level, which isn't exactly patient care, or even pushing dope - it's dealing with equipment scales (which is a little scary as an aside, since alot of them haven't a schmick what and why we use some things or even need them...makes it easier for them to refuse requests for things I guess) as a medical supply officer.  Some actually like the staff work, but alot don't.  The other issue is that we don't have active hospitals anymore, so there isn't as much clinical pharmacy work being done, which alot of folks like.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> MM



Please read people's posts.  This is getting cyclical.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Entry-level pharmacy jobs in the private sector are late hours and low pay - you're the one working the desirable midnight to 8am shift for barely above minimum wage.
> 
> A military pharmacist at age 40 will likely be a mid-ranking major, pulling in over 100K income, plus pension, plus a benefits package.  On deployments overseas, additional allowances are paid, plus there's the possiblity that your pay (or a portion of it) will be tax free.
> 
> The military also pays for your licensing and practice insurance; pays for your ongoing training; offers other professional development opportunities such as paid studies with a masters in health management or an MBA.
> 
> 
> You are correct - the pay for a military pharmacist isn't competitive with the private sector.  It's head and shoulders above.



They also don't have to worry about some strung out jerk off, coming in, sticking a gun in their face and making off with all their percs and oxycodone, while they lay there, dying, in a puddle of their own shit, puke and blood.

This self entitled bullshit is getting out of control :


----------



## Michael OLeary

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *Michael O'Leary:*
> 
> I know, and your points are well taken. My question was just asked with the hope that people might look at it and think: hmm...why is it difficult for the CF to maintain a desired number of pharmacists? What factors are relevant here? And in case my posts have been construed as complaints without offering anything positive, let me say that from what I know, pharmacists in the CF enjoy a scope of professional practice and opportunity that is hard to match in retail. And that is definitely worth something. Pay is always going to be an issue, though. It's something the higher ups need to consider when it comes to recruitment and retention, in my opinion.



So who, exactly are you hoping to convince here? If you think CF Pharmacists are entitled to higher pay, become one and start working from within the system to change it. Simply standing outside and trying to point out what you believe is an inadequate pay and benefits package is not a productive exercise. I can assure you that no-on in the CF medical world is monitoring Milnet.ca for threads like this looking for some sort of "Eureka" inspiration to go off and write proposals for changing pay scales.


----------



## Rocknroll

Strike said:
			
		

> Please read people's posts.  This is getting cyclical.


You edited out the part of my post that led to the second question. IF pharmacists are moving to other positions, thus creating a shortage, why aren't adequate numbers of pharmacists being recruited to replace them? And IF hospital closures have lessened the demand for clinical pharmacy services, why is there still a shortage?

You needed both sides to properly understand what I was asking. You took part of it out of context and the question wasn't even directed to you in the first place.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> You edited out the part of my post that led to the second question. IF pharmacists are moving to other positions, thus creating a shortage, why aren't adequate numbers of pharmacists being recruited to replace them? And IF hospital closures have lessened the demand for clinical pharmacy services, why is there still a shortage?
> 
> You needed both sides to properly understand what I was asking. You took part of it out of context and the question wasn't even directed to you in the first place.



medicineman didn't say they were being moved to other positions, many CF officers have administrative responsibilities that aren't essentially within their technical skillsets or training. Therefore, a pharmacy officer in a CF medical establishment may also be doing those tasks he listed. Others may be promoted or posted out of pharmacy work within the trade to help manage the trade itself, but those will not be a significant proportion of the trade.

There are seldom any simple answers regarding the ebb and flow of attraction and retention in individual trades. Even suggesting that simply throwing more money at those people will not necessarily solve the problem. At its worse, if the imbalance goes the other way, assuming you are correct in some measure, then it may only attract those who seek the pay without the broader motivations for service, and the attrition for other reasons increases among those applicants.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> You edited out the part of my post that led to the second question. IF pharmacists are moving to other positions, thus creating a shortage, why aren't adequate numbers of pharmacists being recruited to replace them? And IF hospital closures have lessened the demand for clinical pharmacy services, why is there still a shortage?
> 
> You needed both sides to properly understand what I was asking. You took part of it out of context *and the question wasn't even directed to you in the first place.*



Sorry, maybe you don't understand the internet or this forum. If you ask a question here, even if it's directed at someone in particular, that does not preclude someone else from answering and giving their opinion.

You may not like it, but that's really too bad. It's just something you'll have to learn to live with.

Kinda like the parameters of a specific job for a specific employer. Don't like it? Move on and see if you can find someone else that will hire you and fit your demands.

Contrary to what most of the current generation feel and believe, it's still a buyer's market out there. It's the prospective employer that holds the cards and decides what they want in a new hire, not the job candidate that thinks that employers are beholden to employ them on what they want to give.


----------



## Rocknroll

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So who, exactly are you hoping to convince here? If you think CF Pharmacists are entitled to higher pay, become one and start working from within the system to change it. Simply standing outside and trying to point out what you believe is an inadequate pay and benefits package is not a productive exercise. I can assure you that no-on in the CF medical world is monitoring Milnet.ca for threads like this looking for some sort of "Eureka" inspiration to go off and write proposals for changing pay scales.



I guess the point was just to have a discussion about it, but you're probably right that nothing terribly productive will come from it.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I guess the point was just to have a discussion about it, but you're probably right that nothing terribly productive will come from it.



You can move the world with a lever long enough, but the fulcrum has to be in the right place.


----------



## dapaterson

(1) The CF's pharmacist requirement is fairly small - tha means that a small number of people hitting retirement at the same time can have a disporportionate impact.  So saying "short" could mean as few as 3 or 4 vacancies; hardly unmanageable.

(2) For comparability, look at the public service pharmacist pay scales at http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/sh/sh07-eng.asp#toc235259037 ; a senior pharmacist (classified as PH3) would earn a maximum of $105K.  Note that at that classification they are senior pharmacists with years of experience, not new graduates. A mililtary pharmacist as a GSO would earn more than that as a senior major.

(3) One can also look at salary surveys.  In 2007 (last numbers I could find) pharmacist pay ranged from $25-$55 per hour, or $49K-107K (based on a 37.5 hour work week).  Military pay is definitely competitive there. (http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html)


So:  military pay scales are comparable to the private and public sector.  The shortages are relatively mionr and are manageable.  So the CF needs to re-think pay for pharmacists why, exactly?


----------



## Rocknroll

Michael O'Leary:

Ahh, ok. Thanks for the informative answer. I've found your posts particularly thoughtful and well-written. Milpoints inbound.


----------



## ballz

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *ballz:*
> 
> Tell me where students are getting into pharmacy school with one year of university ALL THE TIME? Certainly not in Ontario. Are you aware that pharmacy will soon become a professional doctorate degree program and already is in Quebec? You seem to have an attitude towards pharmacy for some reason....I have no idea why that is. Log Os do not require a CA designation to be employed as a Log O. Pharmacists are required to have a pharmacy degree and pass licensing requirements to be employed as pharmacy officer. Big difference. Also, I'd like to see the Chartered Accountant that would work for 70k a year. Sorry, but your argument is flawed.
> 
> And I don't know if _you've_ been paying attention to what's been said, but I haven't made any sort of 100k a year argument. My argument is simply occupations that require highly skilled individuals who command high salaries need to be compensated in a manner that reflects that in the CF...or you will have recruitment problems. No 100k threshold or any other number is the test. If you are wondering why I kept mentioning 100k, it is because that is what a new pharmacy grad can expect to earn, more or less... significantly more than an OC or young Capt.
> 
> Again, you seem to be labouring under the assumption that pharmacy grads compete with art history majors for jobs. They do not. What I have told you is indeed the real world.
> 
> And laugh or cry, it makes no difference to me. Although do you know, strictly speaking, you can be a lawyer in less time than it takes to be a pharmacist? Have you looked at what the average salary of lawyers in Canada is? I'm just curious why you seem to put law on pedestal and attempt to discredit pharmacy...



First off I have no issues with pharmacy. It is one of the few legit programs that university's offer that can guarantee a job right off the bat and a good salary. I have issues with people that think "x" or "y" degree equals 100k a year when it simply does not. I have issues with people that think their piece of paper means they are entitled to have companies come running to them just because the university told them they would and they were stupid enough to buy it.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I have no idea why that is. Log Os do not require a CA designation to be employed as a Log O. Pharmacists are required to have a pharmacy degree and pass licensing requirements to be employed as pharmacy officer. Big difference. Also, I'd like to see the Chartered Accountant that would work for 70k a year. Sorry, but your argument is flawed.



No, they do not require a CA to become a Log O. They will often (maybe always) require some sort of designation or MBA at the rank of Major and certainly above. The CF pays for that, just like they will pay for a Pharmacist Officer under ROTP to get their pharmacy degree. So at the end of the day you have a CA and a Pharmacist working for the CF, because that's what the CF requires, and they are both working and being paid as GSO. So where's the "big difference" you were telling me about?

Again, the world that the education systems have been marketing to you is getting in your way of reality. Accounting is my field, and I know lots of CAs, CMAs, I know lots of junior accountants, and I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do. I know lots of them that were also under the impression that the secret of life was to get "CA" at the end of their name. They are working for less than 100k. Some ARE working for 70k. 

But guess what? They did a 5 year degree program, and a 2-3 year program to get that designation, plus various levels of required work experience as a junior accountant. How does that equate to a 5 year Pharmacy degree?



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> If you are wondering why I kept mentioning 100k, it is because that is what a new pharmacy grad can expect to earn, more or less... significantly more than an OC or young Capt.



You are legit just right the frig outta er. The link has already been posted on the wages, and they are realistic. The lows aren't even close to 100k a year working 40 hrs a week. Not saying you can't work OT as a Pharmacist, but then you've gotta compare that to deployments and allowances as a Pharmacist Officer.

In fact working 40 hrs/week by those numbers, you basically get the same as a Captain's salary... geez, go figure.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> And laugh or cry, it makes no difference to me. Although do you know, strictly speaking, you can be a lawyer in less time than it takes to be a pharmacist? Have you looked at what the average salary of lawyers in Canada is? I'm just curious why you seem to put law on pedestal and attempt to discredit pharmacy...



Maybe on paper you can, since most law schools will accept applications with only 1 year of university. Good luck with that in the real world though, you know, that one that the rest of us have to live in...

Strictly speaking, after having spoken with you I'm going to need to see a pharmacist...

EDIT for obvious reasons to anybody that saw what I removed.


----------



## Rocknroll

recceguy said:
			
		

> Sorry, maybe you don't understand the internet or this forum. If you ask a question here, even if it's directed at someone in particular, that does not preclude someone else from answering and giving their opinion.
> 
> You may not like it, but that's really too bad. It's just something you'll have to learn to live with.
> 
> Kinda like the parameters of a specific job for a specific employer. Don't like it? Move on and see if you can find someone else that will hire you and fit your demands.
> 
> Contrary to what most of the current generation feel and believe, it's still a buyer's market out there. It's the prospective employer that holds the cards and decides what they want in a new hire, not the job candidate that thinks that employers are beholden to employ them on what they want to give.



Uhh...right. Anyway, the problem wasn't that he replied. It was that he took it upon himself to edit out part of my question that was directed to someone else and made a false assumption in the process. Can he answer it anyway? Sure...but he missed the entire point of what I was saying...to someone else. I guess those who don't like that I responded will have to learn to live with it...


----------



## aesop081

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> Uhh...right. Anyway, the problem wasn't that he replied. It was that he took it upon himself to edit out part of my question that was directed to someone else and made a false assumption in the process. Can he answer it anyway? Sure...but he missed the entire point of what I was saying...to someone else. I guess those who don't like that I responded will have to learn to live with it...



If you don't like the way the forum works, go somewhere else.

If you don't like what the CF pays pharmacists, go get a job somewhere else. The pay is what it is, take it or leave it.


----------



## Rocknroll

dapaterson:

1) Good point. Shortages are relative. I have no idea how many current positions need to be filled.

2) Also a decent point, but pharmacist salaries don't really increase drastically with experience. So saying 105k with lots of experience probably doesn't bump you up that much from a recent grad. Grads tend to start around 95k or thereabout...at least among those I've talked to. Question though....how many pharmacists make major? How realistic of a goal is that?

3) I don't really buy the 25 an hour number. Pharmacy techs make more than that in many places. I'd say the high end of the range is more accurate. I haven't heard of any grad taking less than 40 an hour.

I'd think they need to rethink pay if they are needing to hire pharmacists and can't attract enough in the numbers they need.


----------



## Rocknroll

*ballz:*

You know lots of CAs that work for less than 100k? Sure you do. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. Perhaps accounting grads working towards their CA will make less than that....but I have my doubts lots of CAs are working for less than 70k. In any event, I don't care what you think about pharmacy salaries. Try looking at ads for pharmacists....the ones that list salary....and see how many of them make 20 bucks an hour or whatever you think is common. It doesn't really matter. You think pharmacy salaries in the CF are fine. Maybe even overpaid, apparently. I don't. The CF can decide what it wants to do based on the info that they have.

And geez... if you get this worked up over an internet forum, perhaps you do need to see a pharmacist.


----------



## aesop081

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> The CF can decide what it wants to do based on the info that they have.



Obviously, the CF has already done so.


----------



## Rocknroll

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If you don't like the way the forum works, go somewhere else.
> 
> If you don't like what the CF pays pharmacists, go get a job somewhere else. The pay is what it is, take it or leave it.



I didn't make a big issue of it, actually. I just commented that the question wasn't directed to him. It's you and others who seem to have an issue that I dared to mention it in my reply. Don't like it? <shrugs>

Right, cause we certainly can't have any discussion or debate on an online forum.  :


----------



## Rocknroll

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Obviously, the CF has already done so.



Change happens all the time...depends on the current situation.


----------



## aesop081

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> Change happens all the time...depends on the current situation.



Thank you Captain obvious.


----------



## Rocknroll

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thank you Captain obvious.



Was it obvious? From your previous post it didn't seem to be...


----------



## Strike

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> Uhh...right. Anyway, the problem wasn't that he replied. It was that he took it upon himself to edit out part of my question that was directed to someone else and made a false assumption in the process. Can he answer it anyway? Sure...but he missed the entire point of what I was saying...to someone else. I guess those who don't like that I responded will have to learn to live with it...



Rocknroll, I did not take your question out of context.  The previous info was repetitive/similar to the last part that I quoted.  Perhaps I should have included a '...' or something.

Take a breath.

Oh, and before the more seasoned members of the board jump on you, be careful about referring to people as a certain sex.   ;D  The only reason I don't have it in my profile is To provide myself with a certain level of anonymity.

One of the reasons I would see for the shortage of pharmacists in the CF, based on medicineman's explanation, is because the work these officers are expected to do is beyond what someone in civvie world can expect to do as a pharmacist.  It can be intimidating.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> (2) For comparability, look at the public service pharmacist pay scales at http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/coll_agre/sh/sh07-eng.asp#toc235259037 ; a senior pharmacist (classified as PH3) would earn a maximum of $105K.  Note that at that classification they are senior pharmacists with years of experience, not new graduates. A mililtary pharmacist as a GSO would earn more than that as a senior major.
> 
> (3) One can also look at salary surveys.  In 2007 (last numbers I could find) pharmacist pay ranged from $25-$55 per hour, or $49K-107K (based on a 37.5 hour work week).  Military pay is definitely competitive there. (http://www.livingin-canada.com/salaries-for-pharmacists.html)



I have no dog in this fight. 
But, a quick search found a pharmacist making $176,100.64 ( and taxable benefits of $319.20 ) in 2010 at Grand River Hospital, Ontario:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/92538/post-1060007.html#msg1060007

There may be others listed who made more.
Like I said, "It only shows those who made the Sunshine List. Your results may vary."


----------



## Rocknroll

Strike said:
			
		

> Rocknroll, I did not take your question out of context.  The previous info was repetitive/similar to the last part that I quoted.  Perhaps I should have included a '...' or something.
> 
> Take a breath.
> 
> Oh, and before the more seasoned members of the board jump on you, be careful about referring to people as a certain sex.   ;D  The only reason I don't have it in my profile is To provide myself with a certain level of anonymity.
> 
> One of the reasons I would see for the shortage of pharmacists in the CF, based on medicineman's explanation, is because the work these officers are expected to do is beyond what someone in civvie world can expect to do as a pharmacist.  It can be intimidating.



Take a breath? Haha, good advice. I apologize if I spoke out of turn. I have limited knowledge of the working of the CF and realize others know a good deal more...I was replying to both parts of what I thought medicineman was saying, but after Michael clarified I realized there was more to it than I had thought. And perhaps I am replying in a, uhh...hurried fashion to so many posts. If I misread and for my gender assumption, again...my apologies.

Interesting that the workload and responsibility might be a turn off. I would think the expanded scope and responsibility would be an attractive feature in some ways, but maybe that's just me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *ballz:*
> 
> You know lots of CAs that work for less than 100k? Sure you do. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. Perhaps accounting grads working towards their CA will make less than that....but I have my doubts lots of CAs are working for less than 70k. In any event, I don't care what you think about pharmacy salaries. Try looking at ads for pharmacists....the ones that list salary....and see how many of them make 20 bucks an hour or whatever you think is common. It doesn't really matter. You think pharmacy salaries in the CF are fine. Maybe even overpaid, apparently. I don't. The CF can decide what it wants to do based on the info that they have.
> 
> And geez... if you get this worked up over an internet forum, perhaps you do need to see a pharmacist.



Then quit whining. Obviously the CF isn't for you. Go get one of those higher paying civie jobs and leave us alone.

The Pharmacists that work for us seem happy.

We're under no obligation to hire you.

We like people that are dedicated to the job and to the people they work with. Your concern seems to be your salary, not what you can do for your fellow soldier.

If you don't like the terms of employment go find a job somewhere else. We don't need you. We will find a suitable candidate. We don't want for long when it comes to filling ANY position in the CF.

My only hope for this whole fiasco, is that if you do find yourself doing an induction interview, you fail. We don't need people that see the CF as a cash cow and a cheap, easy solution to a career.


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## Blackadder1916

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> . . . . . . . I have limited knowledge of the working of the CF and realize others know a good deal more.... . . . . . .



After following this thread and reading your previous posts I find this comment to be probably the most useful thing you've stated.  Since many (of the usual suspects) who post on this means have some sense of the background (professional, educational, military/civilian, etc) of the other usual suspects, the response that you received is common when someone shows up and makes (in my not unhumble opinion) poorly developed arguments about a subject they know little about.

Though you haven't stated what your professional background is, it is probably being assumed (by the usual suspects) that you are likely either a pharmacist or a pharmacy student or wishing to enter that field.  My guess is student looking at the next few years of mounting debt and weighing your options as to the means to fund that enterprise.  Well, you've already been informed about ROTP and its financial benefits and the obligation (with the attending pay) that such will incur.

Can a pharmacist make much more money in the private sector? Of course he can, but you could say the same about many profession occupations in the CF.  If that is your sole criteria for selecting a career path, go join the other 80% who are in retail, you may easily find a job that suits you.

As for the poorly thought out and presented suggestion that there should be a separate pay table for military pharmacists, it's not the first time I've heard that.  The issue of pay for pharmacists as a recruitment/retention tool was central to the change in policy (late 1980s/early 90s?) that saw pharmacists receive immediate promotion to Captain following completion of education and licensing - prior to that change they started out as Lieutenants.  At that time it was determined that attempting to get TB approval for a separate pay scale would not be successful, either within the department or at TB.  There were a lot of factors that led to that conclusion, but, in the end the decision reached was based primarily on the fact that it was not necessary - the existing GSO pay table adequately provided the compensation package.


http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/report-eng.do?area=9193&lang=en&noc=3131&province=35&keyword=pharmacist&action=final&display=wage


> At the national level, how much do people earn in this occupation?
> 
> According to the Labour Force Survey (2009), the median hourly wage for Pharmacists was $44.00. That is to say that half of all workers in this occupation earned less than this amount and half earned more. The median hourly wage for all occupations was $21.00.
> 
> According to the same survey, the average wage for Pharmacists was $41.20.



Someone else can do the math to see if CF pay rates (outside of other benefits, education subsidiztion and working conditions) are comparable.


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## Rocknroll

recceguy said:
			
		

> Then quit whining. Obviously the CF isn't for you. Go get one of those higher paying civie jobs and leave us alone.
> 
> The Pharmacists that work for us seem happy.
> 
> We're under no obligation to hire you.
> 
> We like people that are dedicated to the job and to the people they work with. Your concern seems to be your salary, not what you can do for your fellow soldier.
> 
> If you don't like the terms of employment go find a job somewhere else. We don't need you. We will find a suitable candidate. We don't want for long when it comes to filling ANY position in the CF.
> 
> My only hope for this whole fiasco, is that if you do find yourself doing an induction interview, you fail. We don't need people that see the CF as a cash cow and a cheap, easy solution to a career.



This type of attitude is what I find annoying. Dare to engage in some exchange of ideas and have a discussion about something and automatically "the CF isn't for you." Who said anything about an obligation to hire me or anyone else? That isn't what this was about. And if people shouldn't be concerned about salary, why do doctors, dentists and lawyers get paid more? Shouldn't they being doing it simply to help their fellow soldier too? Maybe they should just get rations and a bunk...after all, the CF shouldn't be a cash cow or a cheap and easy career, right?

I realize I may be antagonizing a few posters on here now, which regrettably was not my intent, but since when can we not have a difference of opinion or say that something should be changed without all sorts of personal attacks, hopes that people fail, etc.? I mean really, what is your deal, recceguy?

Challenging current CF policy seems to be taken as a personal affront to some of you. I don't know if this sort of close mindedness is common, but what if instead of discussing whether or not pharmacists salaries should be raised, I argued for them to be lowered? What if we discussed medical officers instead of pharmacists? Would it be different then?


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## aesop081

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> Challenging current CF policy seems to be taken as a personal affront to some of you.



It's not what you are saying, rather it is how you say it. The CF pays pharmacists X. I get paid Y. I can make more money doing what i do on civvy street too. I have options and so do you.


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## Rocknroll

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> After following this thread and reading your previous posts I find this comment to be probably the most useful thing you've stated.  Since many (of the usual suspects) who post on this means have some sense of the background (professional, educational, military/civilian, etc) of the other usual suspects, the response that you received is common when someone shows up and makes (in my not unhumble opinion) poorly developed arguments about a subject they know little about.
> 
> Though you haven't stated what your professional background is, it is probably being assumed (by the usual suspects) that you are likely either a pharmacist or a pharmacy student or wishing to enter that field.  My guess is student looking at the next few years of mounting debt and weighing your options as to the means to fund that enterprise.  Well, you've already been informed about ROTP and its financial benefits and the obligation (with the attending pay) that such will incur.
> 
> Can a pharmacist make much more money in the private sector? Of course he can, but you could say the same about many profession occupations in the CF.  If that is your sole criteria for selecting a career path, go join the other 80% who are in retail, you may easily find a job that suits you.
> 
> As for the poorly thought out and presented suggestion that there should be a separate pay table for military pharmacists, it's not the first time I've heard that.  The issue of pay for pharmacists as a recruitment/retention tool was central to the change in policy (late 1980s/early 90s?) that saw pharmacists receive immediate promotion to Captain following completion of education and licensing - prior to that change they started out as Lieutenants.  At that time it was determined that attempting to get TB approval for a separate pay scale would not be successful, either within the department or at TB.  There were a lot of factors that led to that conclusion, but, in the end the decision reached was based primarily on the fact was it was not necessary - the existing GSO pay table adequately provided the compensation package.



LOL. Poorly thought out and presented? You guys are starting to crack me up. I'd think you were trolling if I didn't know better. This isn't a formal presentation. I have an opinion, so do you. I don't find your little "presentation" particularly compelling either, for what it's worth. I guess we both go unsatisfied. We are simply discussing ideas, after all. The level of personal attacks on here is mind boggling....in an amusing sort of way. I can just picture some of you...angrily pounding your keyboards in reply to my "cheeky" questioning of CF convention...

Again, I don't know why you are so threatened by someone coming on here and simply asking...what about this? If there is a good reason to keep it as is, so be it. If not, fix it. If you look back in this thread, I have acknowledged good points by dapeterson, Michael O'Leary, and others. I am open minded and quite civil to anyone who wishes to have a discussion. Why is it so difficult for some of you to do the same?

I do find it interesting that a proposal for a pharmacist payscale was brought forward in the past, however snarky the rest of your message was. The fact that the CF found the issue had enough merit to warrant discussion...even if they ultimately rejected it...should serve as a lesson to several posters in this forum.


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## Rocknroll

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It's not what you are saying, rather it is how you say it. The CF pays pharmacists X. I get paid Y. I can make more money doing what i do on civvy street too. I have options and so do you.



That was not my intent. I get paid nothing as it happens, as I am not a pharmacist. The only reason I brought up how much pharmacists can make on civvy street was not to knock the CF, just to show there might be some merit to a pharmacist payscale. I apologize if the tone came across poorly or if it seemed like it was ONLY about money.


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## Journeyman

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> It's you and others who seem to have an issue.....


Yep, my boy's the only one in step   




			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> I apologize if the tone came across poorly or if it seemed like it was ONLY about money.


Seriously? Have you mentioned anything _other_ than money regarding the poor, downtrodden and oppressed CF pharmacists? :rofl:


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## ballz

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> *ballz:*
> 
> You know lots of CAs that work for less than 100k? Sure you do. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. Perhaps accounting grads working towards their CA will make less than that....but I have my doubts lots of CAs are working for less than 70k.



"With their specialized talents, CAs get paid very well. An articling student earns $45,000 a year and _*the average compensation for a new CA is $72,000.*_"

-http://www.thestar.com/Money911/article/124850

Don't bother apologizing for insinuating that I am a liar, I am sure you are well above apologies. I am sure you will just ignore this anyway, or brush it off with a "I don't buy that," just like you ignored all the other evidence that you're head is in the clouds. 

What you don't know about CAs, lawyers, etc (besides everything) is that when they first get hired they start off a hell of a lot lower than what gets glorified. A new CA/Lawyer is hired and expected to work his ballz off for 60-70 hrs a week to prove his worth and to earn a piece of the partnership, they don't just give up partnership for nothing. It's when you become a partner in an accounting or law firm that you start raking in the big bucks, which is why a CA with 5 years experience averages 113k, but the average salary is more than 168k. 

But I am sure you know all about how everything works...



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> In any event, I don't care what you think about pharmacy salaries. Try looking at ads for pharmacists....the ones that list salary....and see how many of them make 20 bucks an hour or whatever you think is common. It doesn't really matter. You think pharmacy salaries in the CF are fine. Maybe even overpaid, apparently. I don't. The CF can decide what it wants to do based on the info that they have.



Do the math. I am fine with saying $40 an hour, that is what was reported as the "low-end" in the article previously posted by dapaterson. 

$40/hr * 40 hrs/week * 52 weeks = $83200 (Kinda looks like a GSO Captain's salary to me...)

Hmmm, you are short a digit there... Like I said, yes, pharmacists can work OT and all that jazz, and that can easily bring them up over 100k a year, but if you're going to start arguing that then you've got to start considering the extra money being made by CF members when they deploy, plus the various allowances, and tax exemptions, all of which aren't considered on the payscale at forces.ca which only shows monthly salary.



			
				Rocknroll said:
			
		

> This type of attitude is what I find annoying.



Achooooo... Sorry, I'm allergic to irony.

I must retire from this. It is clear that facts and statistics are no match for you. I am handicapped by the limits of reality which clearly don't apply to your world.


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## Rocknroll

*Journeyman:*

If you would have bothered to read this thread, you'd realize that yes, I did mention more than money in this thread. More than once. And if I am talking about money a lot, well...umm...duh...this thread has "Pharmacist" and "payscale" in the title...but by all means...don't let that stop your clumsy attempt to pile on.  :

*ballz:*

Glad to see you took your Valium and were able to join us today. And don't worry, I certainly won't be apologizing. I suspected you might bring up that particular report...I've seen it before...and I've heard CAs say the figures in that survey are under reported...I'm sure you can find people saying that very thing if you google it...anyway, let's say for sake of argument that we accept those numbers. New CAs make ~70k a year. That only undercuts your previous argument about Log Os. If a new CA with a degree makes just over 70k a year, Log Os seem to be more than adequately compensated...whether or not they have a CA. Not so with pharmacy. If we take the 40 an hour amount a new pharm grad can make (they can make even more, but we'll go with 40) even 83k is quite a difference from the 70k a new captain makes. And that is without any obligations of the sort that being in the CF carries. Oh, and btw...you are the only one fixated on 100k. I even said in a previous post 100k was in no way meaningful...except that new pharm grads can make that much. My argument...again....was occupations that are paid significantly more than average....and even 83k would qualify...should have the merits of a separate payscale looked at.

And you aren't the only one done with this. I was asked earlier what I hoped to gain, and I had said just a discussion. Batting around an idea and checking the merits and so forth. It seems clear that that sort of thing doesn't happen here. The name calling, attempts to pile on, and trying to shout down what is a minority opinion is funny in a way...again, I picture several of you redfaced with rage as you pound out your response...but it's also tiresome. I don't know if you are truly intolerant of differing views (and by the way, stats and surveys do NOT equal truth. They can be misleading or distorted and it's appropriate to be skeptical...especially if you have good reason to be...I guess that's beyond some of you to grasp, though), or if you are simply hostile to new posters who don't bow and scrape before the forum elders. I suspect it's the latter, but who knows?...maybe it's a combination of both. In any event, it's been....interesting. Reply if you if like, but I won't be here to answer. You can breathe easy again.


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## Michael OLeary

Rocknroll said:
			
		

> In any event, it's been....interesting. Reply if you if like, but I won't be here to answer.



In that case, there's no need for this to be sent around the track again with similar responses. Usual caveats apply, i.e., if you have something constructive and materially different from what has been posted that you feel your life will be incomplete if not added, you may ask a Moderator to consider unlocking the thread.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Kelchie7

Hey all,

 So I thought I would share my story to date simply because I found it enjoyable to be able to read through other's experiences' while I was considering what path I wanted to take.  My interest with the CF started 5 or 6 years ago when a recruiter came to talk to my grade 10 class about the career options the military had.  I thought about it for awhile before filing the thought away in the back of my mind.  The next year I was at a swim meet and there was a display booth set up about RMC.  Again it got me thinking about my interest in the military however again other things took precedence in my mind and I forgot about it.  Finally, about a year ago I decided I wanted to apply for a couple of Pharmacy programs.  While thinking about that I looked up pharmacists in the CF and saw the incentive to combine two things I have found myself to be passionate about, the military and healthcare.
 In late June of this year I found out I had been accepted into a Pharm program.  In August I made a few calls and decided it would be a good time to apply and see what happened.  Through contact with some people I found out there would be a board deciding who would be accepted into the Pharmacy ROTP in October.  So through August it was a bit of a rush to get all my documentation in.  I managed to get all the paperwork in though and then had my physical, CFAT and interview two weeks later.  I should note that when applying I was under the impression my ROTP would be beginning next year (Sept 2012).  
 Last week I received a call from my local recruiting office telling me they had some good news.  I had been selected for the Pharmacy ROTP program, which in itself was more than exciting.  However there was more, the impression I got was that the CF wanted to start my ROTP this year instead of next.  As of right now I am not sure if they mean starting from Sept, which would mean backpay and reimbursement of tuition, or simply beginning with my semester that starts in January.  Either way I am incredibly excited.  Up next I have my swearing in on Nov 23.  After that I have to make a trip to the nearest base to talk with a university liaison to see what the plan is.  
 I know based on reading other people's experiences that mine has been quite an easy journey so far and has worked out incredibly for me.  I'll keep updating as time passes and my future becomes a bit more clear.


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## Sierracharlierx

I was wondering if anyone knows how the promotion works with completing BMOQ before I graduate pharmacy school. I emailed my ULO and others about this question, but the answers I received were not clear. 

I understand that for MOTP and DOTP they are automatically promoted to 2nd Lt upon enrollment. I was wondering if I completed BMOQ would I stay as an OCdt or will I be promoted to 2nd Lt for the duration of my studies. 

I know if I graduate pharmacy, I will be promoted to Lt even without completion of BMOQ, but I cannot wear the rank.

Thanks


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## da1root

Sierracharlierx said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone knows how the promotion works with completing BMOQ before I graduate pharmacy school. I emailed my ULO and others about this question, but the answers I received were not clear.
> 
> I understand that for MOTP and DOTP they are automatically promoted to 2nd Lt upon enrollment. I was wondering if I completed BMOQ would I stay as an OCdt or will I be promoted to 2nd Lt for the duration of my studies.
> 
> I know if I graduate pharmacy, I will be promoted to Lt even without completion of BMOQ, but I cannot wear the rank.
> 
> Thanks


Sorry for the late reply, just started reviewing this part of the Army.ca Forum.

For ROTP here is the rank progression:
Enrolled at the rank of OCdt and effective through school.
Upon completion of your Bachelor's Degree (or PharmD) you will be promoted to Lt and go on internship to get your license.
Once you have received your license to practice you will be promoted to the rank of Captain.

Please note that the DOTP/MOTP are sepearate entry plans.  For subsidized education for Pharmacy you're enrolled into the ROTP entry plan which is why you remain at the rank of OCdt (and pay) for your schooling.

Hope this helps.


----------



## beirnini

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Please note that the DOTP/MOTP are sepearate entry plans.  For subsidized education for Pharmacy you're enrolled into the ROTP entry plan which is why you remain at the rank of OCdt (and pay) for your schooling.
> 
> Hope this helps.


So DOTP/MOTP have different rank and pay during schooling compared to ROTP? Could you explain the differences?


----------



## da1root

MOTP
Enrolled at the rank of OCdt and commissioned right away to the rank of 2Lt.  They remain 2Lt while attending school.
While doing residency they are promoted and paid at the rank of Lt.
Once they have completed their residency they are promoted to the rank of Capt.

DOTP
Enrolled at the rank of OCdt and commissioned right away to the rank of 2Lt.  They remain 2Lt while attending school.
Once they have their Degree and are licensed they are promoted to the rank of Capt.

Keep in mind that both MOTP & DOTP entry plans that the applicants must already be in possession of a Degree and be accepted into Medical/Dental School.  This is the primary reason that their rate of pay is higher while they are attending school.


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