# Turkey Opens Bases to the US



## tomahawk6 (12 Oct 2014)

Finally some good news from Turkey.Now lets see the Turkish Army charge across the border to save Kobani.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-says-turkey-oks-bases-against-militants-185210066--politics.html


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## a_majoor (12 Oct 2014)

I rather doubt the Turks will be rushing in to save the day...


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## Kirkhill (13 Oct 2014)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Finally some good news from Turkey.Now lets see the Turkish Army charge across the border to save Kobani.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/us-says-turkey-oks-bases-against-militants-185210066--politics.html



Turks preferred solution.....sit back and watch Arabs and Kurds kill each other.  Cynical, me.


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## Old Sweat (13 Oct 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Turks preferred solution.....sit back and watch Arabs and Kurds kill each other.  Cynical, me.



I think your assessment of the Turkish preferred course of action is closer to the truth than you may want it to be.


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## Kirkhill (13 Oct 2014)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I think your assessment of the Turkish preferred course of action is closer to the truth than you may want it to be.



There is no love lost amongst any of the parties where bad blood goes back to the stone age and obsidian was the strategic resource.

Ruins in Northern Syria Bear the Scars of a City’s Final Battle



> Archaeologists digging in Syria, in the upper reaches of what was ancient Mesopotamia, have found new evidence of how one of the world’s earliest cities met a violent end by fire, collapsing walls and roofs, and a fierce rain of clay bullets. The battle left some of the oldest known ruins of organized warfare.
> 
> The excavations at the city, Tell Hamoukar, which was destroyed in about 3500 B.C., have also exposed remains suggesting its origins as a manufacturing center for obsidian tools and blades, perhaps as early as 4500 B.C.














Edit to add obsidian trade routes dating back to 9000 BC

link


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## Kirkhill (13 Oct 2014)

Meanwhile the US Navy builds a Stone Frigate in Romania.....GBAD?



> Navy Establishes New Base in Romania
> 
> 
> (Source: US Navy; issued Oct 10, 2014)
> ...



This is more of interest to the Russians and the Europeans but Turkey used to be the centre of gravity for US operations in the area.  That centre has moved.

Link

The concept could also have implications for Canada - exploiting the commonality between sea-borne and land based air defence solutions could link the RCN and the RRCA.


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## Edward Campbell (13 Oct 2014)

At this hour (1100 Hrs Eastern) the media is reporting that the Turkish PM is denying reports that it will allow the US led coalition to use Turkish bases. It is being reported that some 'moderate' anti-Assad groups will be allowed sanctuary in Turkey.

As to Turkey's intentions ...

It is my _belief_ that Turkey wants to be the linchpin between the West and the East, at least _*a*_, perhaps even _*the *_ dominant power in all of the Near and Middle East with a grasp that extends into West Asia, too. I'm not sure how the Turks want to deal with Egypt and Iran; at a guess: _*a)*_ force Egypt to look West, towards Africa for its power base; and _*b)*_ allow Iran to look East, to contend with _Stans_, including Pakistan, for its power base. How far can Turkish power extend? In my opinion - which my be poorly informed - from Syria to Yemen and Oman, including domination of Saudi Arabia and control of the holy places. A new _caliphate_? Perhaps, call it what you will ... I can imagine Turkey being the _colonial_ overlord of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, all the emirates and Yemen and Oman: a regional power with seaports on the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Gulfs of Aden and Oman and the Arabian Sea.


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## Kirkhill (13 Oct 2014)

Not impossible and there is precedence - but there is precedence  ???

Courtesy of Wikipedia - with my version of capitals thrown in.  Link

Pick your centre of gravity.



> 1 Pre-1700 BCE: The Ancient Middle East
> 1.1 The Sumerian Empire - Baghdad
> 2 1700–1450 BCE: The Egyptian, Babylonian, and Hittite Empires
> 2.1 The Egyptian Empire - Cairo
> ...


9 Would be the Turkish Empire (Ottomans) stretching from China to the Atlantic and centered on Istanbul from 1453 to 1922.

Then you can throw in competing tribes, clans, families and individuals.....

But just because history is "just one damthing after another" doesn't mean we can stay out of the game.  For me it just means we have to stay light on our feet, or in terms common in the "80s".  Maxflex.  And perhaps that applies to our principles as well.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Oct 2014)

Meanwhile the Turks attack the Kurds


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## Edward Campbell (14 Oct 2014)

We, the US led Western 'we,' and especially the Anglo-Saxon 'we' have very, very, very few friends in that region. Turkey is a NATO ally, but it's certainly not clear to me that 'we' and Turkey are _friends_ in the same way that 'we' and, say, neutral Sweden are friends. I _suspect_ that Jordan is a friend ~ by necessity if not choice.  I think that the key lesson that we are learning is that there is no 'we' and 'they;' it's not a clear two-sided thing; it is multi-faceted and we are not sure who is who, much less whose side we are really on.


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## CougarKing (18 Oct 2014)

An update which shows that Turkey may actually have more to do with ISIS than previously thought:

Btw, isn't that actually an AIFV/KIFV or an M113 APC, not a "tank" as the media reported in the picture below?



> *Time to Kick Turkey Out of NATO?*
> The mess in Syria only confirms an inconvenient truth: The Turks are no longer reliable allies.
> 
> By JONATHAN SCHANZER
> ...



*NATO Ally ? Turkey*

Spotted in Kobane after IS took over the Kurdish town.







*Asian Defence News*


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## jollyjacktar (18 Oct 2014)

What do you expect?  Their government is no longer secular, they're Islamist.  At the very least I expect them to look the other way while ISIS makes hay next door.  I don't trust any Islamist bent government.  Period.


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## Edward Campbell (18 Oct 2014)

_I think_ that Turkey sees Assad as the real enemy; IS** is fighting Assad. Turkey also sees the Kurds as a serious problem; IS** is fighting the Kurds, too. What's not to like?


Edit: typo


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## a_majoor (18 Oct 2014)

Turkey sees Iran as the "real" enemy (the only other regional State which has the ambitions and ability to become a regional Hegemon), Assad is one of Iran's allies and "tools", so having ISIS to apply pressure is a good thing for the Turks. The Turks are (like most people over there) very chauvinistic, so they are against the Kurds, Persians and Arabs. I also suspect they are not fans of Saudi Arabia and the spread of radical Islam through Saudi funded Imans.

OTOH, NATO provides a useful function for Turkey as a bulwark against the Russians, who the Turks dislike for historic reasons (the Czarist empire had designs on the Ottoman Empire, and modern Russia is allied with Iran), so I suspect they will try to milk the NATO angle for all its worth, for as long as it is useful for them.


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## CougarKing (18 Oct 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I also suspect they are not fans of Saudi Arabia and the spread of radical Islam through Saudi funded Imans.



In spite of their Ottoman past, aren't the  Turks still Sunnis though? Or just a different sect of Sunni Islam from the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia? Just wanted to clarify...


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## a_majoor (18 Oct 2014)

The Turks are ethnically different from the Arabs (Kurds, Persians, etc.)
The Turks are culturally different from (insert group here)
While they are generally Sunni, they are not Wahabbis, nor do they wish to be.

This is the problem in a nutshell: the ethnic, cultural and religious chauvinism that cuts across the entire region. If you want to have some fun, try taking a political map of the Middle East then adding overlays of ethic groups, religions groups and so on. You will discover that there are virtually no contiguous areas where State, ethnic and religious boundaries overlap.

Robert Kaplan's "Revenge of Geography" tries to put a positive light on this, but I suspect the core of his analysis (and his broader theme that geography is history) is correct and Turkey and Iran are going to be the two most durable entities in the region since they have firm geographical boundaries that shelter their people and cultures. Much of the "Arab" lands are marginal at best, and historically occupied by nomadic bands of pastoralists with city-states on important trade routes occupying resources like secure water supplies. Try envisioning a political future on that model....


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## CougarKing (19 Oct 2014)

And more on Turkey making their position clear:

Canadian Press



> *Erdogan: Turkey would not consent to US arms transfers to Kurdish fighters in Syria*
> The Canadian Press
> 
> SURUC, Turkey - Turkey would not agree to any U.S. arms transfers to Kurdish fighters who are battling Islamic militants in Syria, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was quoted as saying Sunday, as the extremist group fired more mortar rounds near the Syrian-Turkish border.
> ...


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## CougarKing (4 Mar 2015)

Turkey's initial reluctance to help in the fight against ISIS, then this change again (even if they had allowed Iraqi Kurds to pass through their territory to help the Syrian Kurds in Kobani) would have some wondering.

Moderators, since Turkish PM Erdogan had been quick to make recent comments such as this post from another thread that denigrate the West/US, wouldn't a better title for this thread be: "Turkey: love-hate relationship with the West/US/NATO" ?

Defense News



> *Turkey Mulls Military Support To Fight ISIL*
> 
> ANKARA — Turkey's government and military leaders are weighing options for a possible Turkish contribution to a planned military offensive against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), officials here said.
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Mar 2015)

The current government ability to pick a diplomatic stance that pisses on it's own legs is quite impressive. It's a pity that Greece is such a basket case right now, rearming the Greeks might be a good way of yanking the Turk's chain.


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## Kat Stevens (4 Mar 2015)

I was thinking the same thing, and I'm sure the Greek economy could use 3 or 4 US air or navy bases and all the local spending they bring with them.  Boot Turkey out of NATO on the grounds of nonstepupness, mine the Bosphorus, and let them have at it.


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## Retired AF Guy (4 Mar 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Boot Turkey out of NATO on the grounds of nonstepupness, mine the Bosphorus, and let them have at it.



Normally, when Turkish politicians got out of hand, the military stepped in and we had a nice little coup and things would sort themselves out. Unfortunately, Erdogan has been very successful in emasculating the Turkish military and security agencies and therefore been able to stay in power. 

Kicking Turkey out of NATO would probably be the worse thing that could happen and, I suspect would actually play into Erdogan's hand and only strengthen his position.


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## Ostrozac (4 Mar 2015)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Kicking Turkey out of NATO would probably be the worse thing that could happen and, I suspect would actually play into Erdogan's hand and only strengthen his position.



Point of order. A member (including Turkey) can't be kicked out of NATO. Period. The North Atlantic Treaty spells out very specific rules on membership. And the only way a member state can leave is by quitting. It's all in Article 13.


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