# GET DOWN IN THE HATCH!



## TCBF (6 Mar 2006)

Yes, I was yelling.

When Crew Commanding an AFV on the move, the proper exposure is eyeballs over the ack-ack-rail.  No more, or you risk:

1.  Being hit.
2.  Being thrown from the callsign and crushed or killed if it rolls.

Arms should be inside the turret, unless operating external weapons/eqpt or giving hand signals.  If you ride too high with your elbows above the hatchring, you will not be able to drop down fast enough to avoid ejection.  Especially those of you who have a well developed trunk.

Riding high in the hatch on the move should be done ONLY to create safety, not flaunt it, such as going up to watch for small children when moving slowly through a narrow lane in a tribal village (contact not imminent), or at intersections on an admin road move in Canada.

Use the armour - that's why it is there.  If you can't crew command 'eyeballs up' , then you can't crew command.  There is NO excuse, NONE, for riding high in the turret of ANY AFV cross country or on tracks and trails at speed.

Rant off.

Regards, 

Tom


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## Trinity (6 Mar 2006)

Tom

If they ever let me NEAR an armoured veh....  

I'd be the luckiest man alive.

But on that note.. I'll remember to stay down in the hatch!


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Mar 2006)

Thanks Tom,

I was wondering when someone was going to breach the subject.


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## Sh0rtbUs (7 Mar 2006)

What about LCF!? 

Sorry, couldnt help it


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## TCBF (7 Mar 2006)

What's LCF?


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## Armymedic (7 Mar 2006)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> What about LCF!?
> 
> Sorry, couldnt help it



You won't look cool with your head squashed like a grape.


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## GO!!! (7 Mar 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> You won't look cool with your head squashed like a grape.



Nonsense, my PHOP will protect me from all threats, from frostbite to tungsten core fin stabilised discarding sabot armour piercing incendiary rounds - even in the face!


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## Sig_Des (7 Mar 2006)

LCF= Look Cool Factor

Edit: Nothing cool about a flag-draped coffin off the back of a Herc


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## TCBF (7 Mar 2006)

Thanks, now what's PHOP?

If youse guys don't cut it out, I'm going to ColdWarAcronym yer butz.

 :

Tom


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## GO!!! (7 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Thanks, now what's PHOP?
> 
> Tom



I was hoping you would ask...

*P*urple *H*at *O*f *P*ower

Airborne!!  ;D


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## ZipperHead (7 Mar 2006)

And I thought only the black beret carried with it the power of invincibility! Or is that imbecility?!!??! Unfortunately we don't have a cool acronym for the black beret like PHOP. Maybe BBOD. Black Beret of Doom. 

Tom, I couldn't agree with you more about the "ridin' high in the turret". I saw a guy CC'ing a LAV III down highway 7 who was so high in the hatch that he was leaning forward like a ski-jumper. Man, if a stray bird were to get anywhere near him (at pushing 100 km/h) he would have been history. 

Now that they make CADPAT in sizes to make Omar the tentmaker jealuous, they may have to increase the size of the turret rings to suit the larger of girth. Seriously though, with all the fightin' and dyin' gear on, even a modestly proportioned person needs to lube up to insert themselves into the hatch, let alone move around to grab gear or play with the radio, etc. Who knows: maybe somebody will have to make a Human Rights claim to get all the Mat Techs working overtime to increase the size of the hatches. But people would still have their kneecaps resting on the sighthead while CC'ing (or gunning).

Al


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## George Wallace (7 Mar 2006)

Ah!  Yes!  The LCF.  When I was in Germany (Silver helmets - Germany Story) we were constantly ridden to keep down in the hatch.  Granted, it was only a year or two earlier that a Dvr was killed when the top of his head was taken off by the turret.  All because he failed to turn on his Turret Safety Switch when he got up unannounced from his hole and the Turret traversed.  Poignant point was made.  I was surprise a few years after returning to Canada, to go over and see crews exposed from the shoulders up.  As Tom said, it should only be the eyes up.  

How soon people forget.  The same can be said about crawling over or under the gun.  Another Germany story.  A very close friend, a Wpn Tech to boot, died one day when he worked on a gun system in the turret over the lunch hour.  He was crush up against the roof of the turret, and there was no one around to find him.  Several lessons to be learned there.

Carelessness in any job can cost you your life.  There are no shortcuts when it comes to Safety.


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## Franko (7 Mar 2006)

We had un-written rules as to how we go about doing our buisness in A stan.....

1. Eyes up...not heads up out of the hatches. If the CO saw us too far up he'd have us at the chow in a heart beat. When getting through the gates of KAF or in Kabul we went heads up...where it was safe. No higher than the top of your shoulders though...and the speed limit is 16 km/h....not 30!

2. Shoulder pads off the bloody flak vests. Trying to get down in a hurry in the turret/ GIB holes is hard enough with the things on, never mind the shoulder pads getting caught up on everything on the way down. Keep the neck collar on though....for obviouse reasons.

3. Stand in the turret...on the floor!!!! Not the bloody seat. If you have to ge down in a hurry it's easier than having to waste time flipping the seats up then stepping down. Yes you will get tired and sore....suck it up.

4. Seats for the GIBs...swing seats that can move out of the way quickly. If it can't....you're standing for the whole trip.

5. Turret crews and GIB wear only the flak vests....no TV. Less things to get caught up on.

6. GIBs are up as soon as you leave the gates and never go down until you get back.

7. Gunners will scan using the optics....they're not tourists. 

8. Put the cameras away and concentrate on the job. (We noticed a few CSS troops in the Bisons during the road moves doing this....and it was dealt with quickly)

Regards


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## medicineman (7 Mar 2006)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Now that they make CADPAT in sizes to make Omar the tentmaker jealuous, they may have to increase the size of the turret rings to suit the larger of girth. Seriously though, with all the fightin' and dyin' gear on, even a modestly proportioned person needs to lube up to insert themselves into the hatch, let alone move around to grab gear or play with the radio, etc.



Imagine the fun I get to have when I go over to the Armour school and walk and talk guys through casualty extrications - we've almost dislocated shoulders pulling guys up through the hatches in Coyotes (in fact we almost HAD to do that to get a few people out), and that's without the body armour or tac vest on.  Not to mention some of the near disc and abdominal herniations... ;D  Makes you wonder if the rings were actually made for North Americans.

MM


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## Caleix (7 Mar 2006)

sorry, couldn't find the acronym for GIB.....care to explain


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## big bad john (7 Mar 2006)

Caleix said:
			
		

> sorry, couldn't find the acronym for GIB.....care to explain



Guys in the back


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## Franko (7 Mar 2006)

Caleix said:
			
		

> sorry, couldn't find the acronym for GIB.....care to explain



Air sentry.....Guys in Back    

Regards


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## lawandorder (7 Mar 2006)

Anyone have any tips for the G-Wagon hatches and getting down quick?  I know its not quite the same as a LAV or Bison, but anyone have any tips for those, or is it all just the same,


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## TCBF (7 Mar 2006)

"sorry, couldn't find the acronym for GIB.....care to explain"

- AKA: "Trunk Monkeys."

A phrase often bandied about during the infamous "Hull Scum" versus "Turret Scum" euchre games.


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## McG (7 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Rant off.


What inspired this?



			
				Franko said:
			
		

> 3. Stand in the turret...on the floor!!!! Not the bloody seat. If you have to ge down in a hurry it's easier than having to waste time flipping the seats up then stepping down. Yes you will get tired and sore....suck it up.
> 
> 4. Seats for the GIBs...swing seats that can move out of the way quickly. If it can't....you're standing for the whole trip.


These two remind me of my principle beef with the Bison.  That stupid CC seat can't be put out of the way & it does not go low enough to stand on.  It should be ripped out & replaced with a LAV CC seat or nothing at all.


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## TCBF (7 Mar 2006)

"What inspired this?"

- Supper table conversation among old dogs discussing observations on a group of moving LAVs.


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## GO!!! (7 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Supper table conversation among old dogs discussing observations on a group of moving LAVs.



While twirling handlebar moustaches, amply waxed...

"When I was a young trooper, we always had to stay low in the saddle, or the pikemen would get ya, and lord help ya if they found any dirt or rust on your lance...."

"Always had to keep your armour done up too, to keep the arrows out..."

Something like that - right?


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## TCBF (8 Mar 2006)

Well.... yeah.... kinda....

Tom


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## George Wallace (8 Mar 2006)

Caleix said:
			
		

> sorry, couldn't find the acronym for GIB.....care to explain


FNG's. They're FUBAR.   ;D


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## Sig_Des (8 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> FNG's. They're FUBAR.   ;D



Hell, even I know those ones...

point of interest, On the videos of of LAVs out on the CBC: The National, I've been noticing a lot of guys shoulder and waist up frum the hatches...

I'm guessing this is one of those rules that people aren't really paying attention to?


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## George Wallace (8 Mar 2006)

Yes.  That is known as a 'Safety Infraction'.  It is a real 'No-No' and can be hazardous to your health.  Some Units are better than others at maintaining that 'Discipline' amongst its' Troops.  Unfortunately, when it comes to GIBs and their role it may call for a little bit of modification.  Drivers, Crew Commanders and Turret Crews should never be 'High' in their hatches.  Nor should you ever see some young Crew Commander unfolding his 'Map of the World' to find out where he is or where he is going to or coming from.  Maps and glass (goggles) on tops of helmets are great advertising.......oops straying off topic.   ;D


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## Franko (8 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> point of interest, On the videos of of LAVs out on the CBC: The National, I've been noticing a lot of guys shoulder and waist up frum the hatches...
> 
> I'm guessing this is one of those rules that people aren't really paying attention to?



The main infractors of this are crews who don't know the dangers and it hasn't been made apparent to them yet. Armoured crews have this drilled into them from day one.

I'm sure that after these accidents the crews are getting down.

Mind you we've had deaths before the latest..... and there are still people out there that think that they can get down quickly enough, they are delusional.

The only way some people learn is the hard way....

*GET DOWN IN THE HATCHES!!!!!!*

Doing this will up the chances of you surviving an IED or a rollover.

Regards


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## McG (9 Mar 2006)

Franko said:
			
		

> I'm sure that after these accidents the crews are getting down.


I don't think we should assume the recent deaths had anything to do with the pers being too high in thier hatches.


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## ZipperHead (9 Mar 2006)

MCG said:
			
		

> I don't think we should assume the recent deaths had anything to do with the pers being too high in thier hatches.



I don't know 100% for sure (nor does anybody) if these deaths (or any of the other roll-over deaths in Canada and operations overseas) are from being too high in the hatch, but I am willing to stake my reputation that the majority of the personnel were too high. Being rolled around in the vehicle (after it rolls) can (and will likely) cause a lot of injuries, but being outside of the vehicle (and then between the ground and the vehicle) will likely have a 100% mortality rate. 

When I was in Bosnia, I spent a LOT of time trying to decide whether I would take my chances and drop down into the vehicle if we were to go off the road around the area of a cliff or major dropoff, or try to jump clear. Every case would be different, but as Tom mentioned, having your upper body too high, especially with your arms and elbows out of the hatch, that's a recipe for not getting down inside the vehicle in time. I think that the chances of being able to jump clear of the vehicle are pretty slim (if you have that kind of time to climb up onto the top of the turret, and then jump clear, chances are that it was a pretty low speed event, and I would say that falls into the small minority of the types of vehicle rollovers that have occurred). 

I don't think this needs to devolve into a case of "Armour Corps knows best", but we are the only trade (that I am aware of) that does specifically conduct tactical driving and crew commanding as part of our leadership training, and it is drummed into us from early in our careers to "stay the F&&^%^ down" in the hatches, for the reason's that have been brought up. Yes, I have seen many a crewman too high in the hatch, but they usually get a goodly blast if seen by anybody in the know. But I have seen far too many other trades doing the "turret surfing" position, and it seems to be a matter of status quo within those organizations. Well, until the powers that be start hammering people for doing just that: ignoring what is a major safety infraction.

Al


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2006)

The photos of the accident scene showed the Turret on the ground.  There is no 'Roll Bar', or Cage inside the turret, that would effectively protect a crewmember in the event the turret came off during a roll over.  Limbs could easily become severed as the turret separates from the vehicle or as it rolls on the ground.  Bodies could easily be crushed by the turret rolling on the ground and mangling the crew positions.  Once the turret has parted from the vehicle, it really doesn't matter whether a person was up or down in the hatch; their fate is in God's hands.


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## Franko (9 Mar 2006)

MCG said:
			
		

> I don't think we should assume the recent deaths had anything to do with the pers being too high in thier hatches.



Wasn't assuming anything....just stating that the troops are _more than likely_ getting down in the hatches after these horrible accidents, if they weren't already.

I know that after Woody's death....we all were at eyeball level for the remainder of the tour. 

He was (AFAIK) down in the hatch and was thrown out .....



I'll be on any young trooper in a heart beat I see standing waist high in any hatch. 

Anything to prevent another tragedy.

Regards


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## Armymedic (12 Mar 2006)

Its not just armour guys who are saying this. Medics too, are now preaching it, as we have a bad habit of being high in the hatch, esp the GIBs.

Check out this article:

http://www.cbc.ca/ns/story/ns-kaye-afgh20060306.html

In particular this paragraph:



> Cpl. Shaun Kaye was in the convoy that was attacked by a suicide bomber last Friday near Kandahar.
> 
> Kaye was travelling in a Bison ambulance — exposed from the waist up — when he heard a big bang from the light armoured vehicle ahead.



If the bomber hit his veh, there would be one FUBAR'd if not dead medic. 

Get down in the hatches...all of them.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> I don't think we should assume the recent deaths had anything to do with the pers being too high in their hatches.


I will say that that injury in the article above, with good sources, was attributed to him being above shoulder high in the hatch at the time of the injury.


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## 17thRecceSgt (31 Mar 2006)

I was seen turret surfing in 95 in a Grizzly...by Keith D, and I was working for then WO Donnie H.

I think they fought over who was gonna get to rip me a new one.  So they both did...

Seemed to be a missed point in the Res side when the Recce Regt's had Iltis...was it ever added as a TP on the new PRes DP1 crse?  Might sound like a leadership problem...and it is...but the folks that weren't around veh's with turrets/hatches don't carry with them the common sense of the folks that are around them day to day...just a point...

never hurts to have it in the CTP as a TP does it??  'Specially if someday it saves a life...

MOD EDIT: REMOVED LAST NAMES


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## ZipperHead (31 Mar 2006)

17th Recce Sgt said:
			
		

> I was seen turret surfing in 95 in a Grizzly...by Keith D, and I was working for then WO Donnie H.
> 
> I think they fought over who was gonna get to rip me a new one.  So they both did...
> 
> ...



I don't want to come off as rude (but I will): If you think that it (keep down in the hatch) needs to be put in as a TP, you might need to have a vehicle roll over on your head to sort out that type of thinking. Saying it is a "leadership" problem tells me something about your leadership skills (shirk and avoid responsibility). It is common sense whether in a turreted vehicle, or (especially) a softskin vehicle such as an Iltis or G-Wagon. An armoured vehicle or a soft skin vehicle will both crush your head, or upper body, like a grape if you roll over, so to say it is only in the domain of "the folks that around them day to day" does a great disservice to the Reservists, of which most that I have met have the common sense to stay down to stay alive. Go ahead blame it on your instructors from your initial training: you're blaming the TP/CTP for not telling you how to suck eggs, so why stop there?? Geeesh..... no wonder we have to hold people by the hands nowadays....

Naming names, especially of pers still in service (both are SSM's now) won't win you any fans either (even though they were right to rip you a new one). Seeing as how you remember it 11 years later says something about the effectiveness of their rebukes.

MOD EDIT: EDITED QUOTE BOX


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## Unknown C/S (31 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ah!  Yes!  The LCF.  When I was in Germany (Silver helmets - Germany Story) we were constantly ridden to keep down in the hatch.  Granted, it was only a year or two earlier that a Dvr was killed when the top of his head was taken off by the turret.  All because he failed to turn on his Turret Safety Switch when he got up unannounced from his hole and the Turret traversed.  Poignant point was made.  I was surprise a few years after returning to Canada, to go over and see crews exposed from the shoulders up.  As Tom said, it should only be the eyes up.



I'll amend the story somewhat:

It was the last day of a six week Fallex. The driver was up on his elbows in the hatch (probably watching the A10's) as the troop was in a static tactical position, and waiting. (seems we did a lot of that) He did have the driver's turret safety switch "on"
It was the crew commander that hit the over-ride and traversed. It was a series of mistakes, tired troops, sitting too high in the hatch, over riding without checking, and probably a new peice of equipment that pers were still getting familiar with. (this was the first Regt Ex with our new Leo's - 1978)

I was nearby, so this account is fairly accurate

And now you know the rest of the story

Stay down in the hatch and use the armour for what it was designed for............protection


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## Colin Parkinson (31 Mar 2006)

So can they put locking lugs from the turret and extending under the ring to prevent the turret on the LAV from separating? Sort of a L shaped affair.


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## Unknown C/S (31 Mar 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> So can they put locking lugs from the turret and extending under the ring to prevent the turret on the LAV from separating? Sort of a L shaped affair.



I'm not sure if reinforcing it that way would work. there are clearances that have to be maintained, (inside the turret) and anything used to hold it would have to be fairly substantial
There is probably a solution to turret separation. The problem is, it would come at a cost in manufacturing, weight increase and performance (both turret and hull), not to mention weakening the hull itself. It may be an engineering nightmare. (turret motor size increase, higher centre of gravity, thicker roof metal, etc etc.) The trade-off might not make it worthwhile.
I guess any extruding structure on a vehicle will be prone to separation caused by impact. The only variable being the amount of energy it takes. 

I aint no expert, just an end user.


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## Spanky (31 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> I'll amend the story somewhat:
> 
> It was the last day of a six week Fallex. The driver was up on his elbows in the hatch (probably watching the A10's) as the troop was in a static tactical position, and waiting. (seems we did a lot of that) He did have the driver's turret safety switch "on"
> It was the crew commander that hit the over-ride and traversed. It was a series of mistakes, tired troops, sitting too high in the hatch, over riding without checking, and probably a new peice of equipment that pers were still getting familiar with. (this was the first Regt Ex with our new Leo's - 1978)
> ...



Our flyover troop was there providing the 60 call signs and was near the accident.  One of our crew commanders spoke german and was tasked to get there ASAP to liase with the german police.  The story we got was that the driver was sitting higher than he should have as the Leo was driving through a village.  When the tank cleared the built up area, they came under contact and the commander put the gun on stab and had the driver make a turn. As the hull turned the turret did not.


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## George Wallace (31 Mar 2006)

Spanky said:
			
		

> Our flyover troop was there providing the 60 call signs and was near the accident.  One of our crew commanders spoke german and was tasked to get there ASAP to liase with the german police.  The story we got was that the driver was sitting higher than he should have as the Leo was driving through a village.  When the tank cleared the built up area, they came under contact and the commander put the gun on stab and had the driver make a turn. As the hull turned the turret did not.



OK

You were just told that he was there (closer than you were).  The story you just told could not have happened.  Stab does not override the Driver's Turret Traverse Safety Switch.  Only the Crew Commanders Override can, and that can be done at any time, Stab or no Stab.   

Let's leave this story as corrected by Unknown C/S.  He is also more qualified to tell the story than you, and also his having been there, more qualified than me.


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## 17thRecceSgt (3 Apr 2006)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I don't want to come off as rude (but I will): If you think that it (keep down in the hatch) needs to be put in as a TP, you might need to have a vehicle roll over on your head to sort out that type of thinking. Saying it is a "leadership" problem tells me something about your leadership skills (shirk and avoid responsibility). It is common sense whether in a turreted vehicle, or (especially) a softskin vehicle such as an Iltis or G-Wagon. An armoured vehicle or a soft skin vehicle will both crush your head, or upper body, like a grape if you roll over, so to say it is only in the domain of "the folks that around them day to day" does a great disservice to the Reservists, of which most that I have met have the common sense to stay down to stay alive. Go ahead blame it on your instructors from your initial training: you're blaming the TP/CTP for not telling you how to suck eggs, so why stop there?? Geeesh..... no wonder we have to hold people by the hands nowadays....
> 
> Naming names, especially of pers still in service (both are SSM's now) won't win you any fans either (even though they were right to rip you a new one). Seeing as how you remember it 11 years later says something about the effectiveness of their rebukes.
> 
> MOD EDIT: EDITED QUOTE BOX



Hey Allan,

Why I say "has it ever been put in a TP"?  Well, when I did QL3...QL4...even my AVGP dvr...that was never mentioned.  Not passed on by our Intructors either.  What we saw as young Tpr's in the Iltis was our CCs standing up, holding onto the rollbar and windshield on traces.  So...learned some bad habits that never got picked up until I went to TSS in 94/95.  The guys I worked with couldn't believe that our CCs were going down secondary roads in PEI doing 40/50 km standing up..but it was true.  So I learned my lesson in an AVGP in 95 from the folks I mentioned ( sorry for the names thing, won't happen again).  In '96, I spent the summer teaching AVGP dvr crses, and our Sqn went in Bison's for ARCON.  People were stuck out of hatches all over the place.  Old habit of standing on jeep seats.  No one wanted to listen, at first, to a MCpl.  

Saying it is a leadership problem, to me, means, it is the CC responsibility that his/her crew is down, and correct them if they are not.  If you have green CC's like we do ALOT, or used to, in the Res, then that should come from the Ptl Comdr, A c/s, etc etc and corrected on the spot.  I have seen Ptl Cmdr's that say "I don't want to micro-manage my Jnr though".  That to me is what I mean a leadership problem, vice me specifically having a deficit there.

I am not blaming my instructors for it...wholly.    I am just saying no one said "make sure you stay down in the hatch/cupola" with us because we simply didn't have any.  We were in Iltis.  So yeah there was the Iltis type safety instructions, but no turret/hatch.  In hind sight, sure it MAKES common sense but...it still didn't just happen on its own.  Learned from mistakes in 95.  In 96, higher ranked people didn't want to listen to my common sense.  Go figure.  

Yup, there are some folks, Reg and Res, that need their hands held.  Agreed on that one.  

As for my leadership style, well, I will let that one slide, because I think I either didn't word my comments right, or...you didn't get my meaning..or both.  I can assure you I don't shirk and avoid.  Hard for anyone to tell on here I suppose though eh?

What seems to be drilled into the troops heads NOW regarding turret/hatch safety was not drilled into mine in the early stages.  After I learned my lesson, I certainly made sure the was the SOP when I was on Ex, teaching crse, etc etc.  You win some, you loose some.  Luckily the year we were in Bison, we didn't have a rollover.  The CCs had taken, of some of them, to raising the seat up, with a milk crate on the seat...so they wouldn't have to stand.  Almost waist-high in the hatch.  No one wants to listen to a MCpl, or not that year anyways.  

So what I meant was probably more of a question.  How come this was never something beaten into our heads on QL3/QL4/QVGP Dvr?  Something was missing back then and I hope it is not missing now.  But...if early posts on this tread are correct, troops in A Stan are still poppin out of hatches like prairie dogs.


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