# Marksmanship exercise suggestions wanted



## Jason Jarvis (4 Mar 2004)

My corps is going to Borden at the end of March for an outdoor qualification shoot with the C No. 7, and I'd like some ideas to make the exercise enjoyable and challenging.

All cadets will receive safety, familiarization and handling tests prior to the exercise, and all will have fired the air rifle at least once as well. I'm rather old school when it comes to firearms safety and handling, so if I don't think a cadet is ready, they don't go.

But what can we do once we're there? We have a 25 m bay of the Langemark Range booked all day Saturday and Sunday morning, so we have lots of time -- perhaps too much time. Approximately 30 cadets (army with some air) will be participating, and we have 15 rifles, so assuming everything is serviceable, that's two relays (three RSOs will be on-hand as well as myself and another coach). While one group of 15 is shooting the other will be off doing map & compass or something, so they‘ll be at least kept busy.

What I would like to do is to take the PWT and adapt it to cadet purposes -- less the kneeling and standing positions, multiple ranges and disappearing targets. I know this doesn't leave much, but assuming no one acts in an unsafe manner and that the standard 2x10 grouping targets go fine, how does this sound (two relays for each):
- 5 rds @ 10 sec/rd
- 1 target @ 2 min
- Run and shoot (sprint back behind the line for 100 m, return, 10 rds
- Stand and shoot (stand up, whistle blows, lay down, fire, all within 30 sec
- 5 rd elimination on biathlon falling targets (2 shooters start at opposite end and the first one to the middle wins)

Too dangerous? I'm worried about the overall level of proficiency, but I'm trying to come up with things to keep them interested. The scores could be tracked and the top overall cadet could get a trophy or medal or something.

What to do on Sunday is another problem all together. I'd like to move them over to a 100 m bay and get some practice at both 50 m and 100 m, but I don't know if it's too late to request this, or if it would even be approved (non-standard training).

Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Remember, these are cadets! Thanks!


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## Franko (4 Mar 2004)

Sounds like a good plan to make it a bit more challenging than the run-of the-mill range weekend. I am assuming of course you will have one coach per cadet for the duration of the firing on the range, lessening the likelyhood of NDs and safety infractions.

Has your CO and RSO approved your plans? Definatly a fun event for a famil shoot with the C-7s...

Regards


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## The_Falcon (4 Mar 2004)

I am assuming you meant you are using the C7 service rifle.  I am not involved in Cadets, but I thought there were certain limits to who (cadets that is) gets to use the service rifle, like they have to be a certain age and star level. And you can only fire a max of 20 rds in the prone at 100m. And you have to have people who are qualified to use the weapon (like Reg/Pres) supervise. I maybe wrong though.


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## patt (4 Mar 2004)

i remeber back in 2001 we werent allowed more than 5 rounds in the mag and only in the prone position just wounderinf if something has changed?


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## MikeM (4 Mar 2004)

I can guarentee that they will not be allowed to run and shoot. As a cadet I have never shot on anything less than a 100m range, and I am fairly confident that you are required to fire from the 100m firing point.

Not too burst your bubble or anything, but the chances of this being authorized are very slim. There are strict rules and regs about what us cadets can do, for instance firing only prone with 5 rounds per mag. 

Excellent idea, but I wish you luck on the approval.


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## MikeM (4 Mar 2004)

Just to add on to the part about Air Cadets, to my understanding they are not authorized to fire the C7, perhaps an exception has been made.

Patty, nothing has changed, cadets must be prone and have no more than 5 rounds per mag.


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## Jason Jarvis (4 Mar 2004)

Lads, let‘s try this again -- they‘re shooting the *C No. 7*, converted .22LR No. 4 Lee-Enfields.

We‘re going to have 15-person relays with 3 RSOs and 2 coaches (that‘s three cadets per instructor). And we‘re at 25 m, not 100 m.

The silver stars are going to Meaford with the regiment, but I‘m not involved with that.

Now go back and re-read my post and tell me if I‘m expecting too much from them!


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Mar 2004)

Yes Sir!!! No Sir!!! Three Bags Full Sir!!!
We humbly request you excuse our ignorance!!
   

Cool your jets Jason, wrong forum for that tone from someone so new   

Relax and enjoy


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Mar 2004)

OK, 
Now to try answer some of your questions.
The No.7 (never seen the ‘C‘ designation before) is a single shot .22 cal LR, bolt action rifle based on the Lee Enfield. That‘s for the pers that don‘t know. Each round has to be fed, by hand into the chamber,it‘s not magazine fed. The mag that‘s on the weapon is an empty box that collects the spent brass when extracted by the bolt. Some of the timings may be alright if the person is proficient with the rifle, if not, you may want to expand them. I don‘t know the size of your cadets, but the No.7 is not a Cooey or air rifle, it is quite heavy, meant to match the weight of the actual .303 Lee Enfield. It might be unwieldy for some of the smaller people if not prone or supported. While the .22 cal Long Rifle cartridge may be dangerous to 1 mile, it‘s not meant to target practice at 100 mtrs, it can be done, but‘s it‘s not practical with this rifle, maybe 50 mtrs but I‘d cut it there. Hope this helped.


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## Jason Jarvis (4 Mar 2004)

Cool my jets? Come on recceguy, gimme a break! And I‘ve been lurking for years, BTW.   

I‘ve put several thousand rounds downrange through a No. 7, and if I look closely enough I can probably still see the scars on my right thumb from cutting it on the breech from loading too aggressively.

My frustration over the earlier responses was due to the fact that everybody saw "C" and "7" and assumed I meant "C7", when I actually meant the No. 7.

The training plan I‘ve proposed is a best scenario kind of thing. I don‘t know the ages and sizes of cadets that will be attending, or their experience. Everyone will have fired the air rifle before so they‘ll be familiar with the basics, but the No. 7 is a whole other ballgame.

But I haven‘t coached on the No. 7 for over ten years, and I‘ve never seen these cadets handle real firearms. I grew up in rural Nova Scotia where everybody used guns, so any cadet training was more of a refresher than anything new. These cadets are from the inner-city, though, and I‘m worried I‘m out of my league here. I want to have several options available to keep them interested and switched on, especially if I don‘t feel it‘s safe for them to do any of the exercises I‘ve suggested.

I‘m trying to come up with a range of scenarios to present to the CO and RSO so we‘re not going into the exercise making things up as we go. I‘ve been on too many exercises where things weren‘t properly planned and they turned into SNAFUs. I don‘t want to waste anybody‘s time, least of all my own.


P.S. The "run and shoot" and "stand and shoot" ideas would be conducted without rifles behind the firing line. No cadet will be allowed to touch a weapon except to fire it or carry it to and from the range vehicle.


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## bossi (4 Mar 2004)

Perhaps the most simple, yet effective marksmanship trick was one I learned many moons ago from our former drum major (no - not the one where he told us all to get pissed the night before so we‘d be relaxed on the ranges the next day ...)

It‘s a dry fire practice (i.e. no ammo).
Carboard boxes are used as targets (i.e. the boxes stand up by themselves - no stakes need to be driven into the ground/armoury floor).
Firers adopt the prone position, take aim, and then ... close their eyes.
After about ten or fifteen seconds the firers open their eyes again, and see whether they‘ve drifted off target - if yes, they need to adopt a better firing position - if they haven‘t strayed, they‘ve got a good stance.
Simple, effective, cheap - it doesn‘t get much better.


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## Franko (5 Mar 2004)

I know of that one too Bossi...good practice for new shooters.   

Jason...it‘s no.4 Lee Enfield converted to no. 7(303British to .22cal)

Mike M...any portion of the cadet movement has the option of firing C7, just the air and sea element choose to concentrate there focus on things relative to their own. As far as I know, there is no hinderance to them taking it up.

Regards


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## MikeM (5 Mar 2004)

Actually Franko, Air and Sea element are not authorized. Specifically Air. Sea Cadets may fire if they have PRES/RegF pers supervising while conducting training at the LHQ (Weekend Ex‘s), but at a CSTC they are not authorized. The units must also provide ammunition at no charge to the CC.

The link to the CATO outlining this is below:

 http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1441A3_b.pdf


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## Jason Jarvis (5 Mar 2004)

Does *anyone* have any constructive advice on the training proposals?

Good? Bad? Too ambitious? Too dangerous? Something different?

As for the shooting rest idea, bossi, I had intended to bring some along anyways. We‘re going to be drawing 5-6 rifles from Blackdown to make up the 15, but I don‘t know if they‘re going to have the rotating sling swivel in front of the magazine. If not, then I may need more rests because the smaller/younger cadets aren‘t going to be able to hold up the rifles.

Are there no cadets out there reading this with any suggestions on what they‘d like to do, given this opportunity? Sound off!


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## Excolis (5 Mar 2004)

just to clarify about firing the C7.  it has to be a senior cadet.  they have to be at least 16 and silver star.....  it has to do with the scopes being radio active... cant have that now can we.. lol


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## MikeM (5 Mar 2004)

I‘d participate in it by all means, it sounds like you have a well thought out plan, however the idea of having junior cadets running with rifles is not something I like, however since it is with the No. 7, pending they are not hot weapons when running to the firing point I see no problem with it. 

There should be someone there to oversee the preparation before moving to the firing point, such as ensuring the weapons are cleared.


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## Jason Jarvis (5 Mar 2004)

MikeM,

Thanks for vote of confidence. No one will be running with weapons. All physical activity will be conducted behind the firing line. Ammunition will be strictly controlled and there will be an RSO on the line at all times, regardless of whether cadets are shooting or not.


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## MikeM (5 Mar 2004)

It sounds good what you have planned, I like the idea of them sprinting back 100 yards and returning then firing rounds. Gives a bit more challenge with their breathing control.


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## fleeingjam (6 Mar 2004)

"one trick my old man taught me was to hold your breath while you shoot" lol then again i think jsut about everyone know that lol


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## Franko (6 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Usman_Syed:
> [qb] "one trick my old man taught me was to hold your breath while you shoot" lol then again i think jsut about everyone know that lol [/qb]


If you want an inconsistant MPI...go right ahead.

Mike M...I am Reg and have run C7 ranges for the Air and Sea cadets in the past, with authorization from Area Comd.

Don‘t quote CATOs to me. 

Regards


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## MikeM (7 Mar 2004)

Well then there you go    I stand corrected.


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick (16 Jun 2004)

:sniper: :cam: :rocket: :threat: :akimbo: :tank: :fifty: :flame: :mg: :soldier: :gunner: :tank: :evil:
 What I did was push-ups and sit-ups.Push-ups are better because they work the arms. Another thing is diet no sugar
 on the day of range and no caffeine 3-5 days before range or you'll shake. Be positive tell your going to get 100 points
 and tell your self your the best shot best ever don't get down on your self.


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