# Reliable Personal Weapons



## StevenPeece (19 Feb 2006)

In the UK back in the 80's we used the SLR (Self Loading Rife) as our personal weapon. We nicknamed it the elephant gun because it was powerful enough to literally stop one in its tracks. At the end of the 1980's we moved to the SA80. I remember trialling this weapon in the arctic and the gun barrel started to bend and some times crack with the heat exchange created when firing it. Now they're using an SA80 2. Hopefully this will be better. The M16 seemed to be fairly reliable. What is the general thoughts on this?


Steve


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## Caleix (20 Feb 2006)

Speaking of the SA-80, (only going on weap. specs) it would appear to be a great personal weapon. When i was in Connaught this summer some Brits had brought a bunch to show us at a Cadet rifle competition, I really liked the bullpup design. On the M-16 note....maybe you should specify what model. Cause for me (not everyone else) when I hear M-16 I think Vietnam for some reason.

Caleix


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## COBRA-6 (20 Feb 2006)

Caleix said:
			
		

> Speaking of the SA-80, (only going on weap. specs) it would appear to be a great personal weapon.



Appearances can be deceiving...


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## Armymatters (20 Feb 2006)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> Appearances can be deceiving...



Agreeded. I don't know how they can screw up COPYING AN EXISTING DESIGN (Armalite AR-18), but screwed up they did. Wonder what the guys at Enfield were smoking when they were designing the gun. Even when HK was contracted to fix the thing, it improved reliability, but the thing is still troublesome. The only good thing is the SUSAT sight, which makes this rifle a good target rifle.


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## mudgunner49 (20 Feb 2006)

Armymatters said:
			
		

> Agreeded. I don't know how they can screw up COPYING AN EXISTING DESIGN (Armalite AR-18), but screwed up they did. Wonder what the guys at Enfield were smoking when they were designing the gun. Even when HK was contracted to fix the thing, it improved reliability, but the thing is still troublesome. *The only good thing is the SUSAT sight, which makes this rifle a good target rifle.*



Too bad it's NOT a target rifle and that it (unfortunately) gets relied on for personal defence.  One of the biggest POS in the current military arsenal.  I would rather have a good bolt gun...


blake


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## HItorMiss (20 Feb 2006)

Having used the SA80, I would shoot myself if I had to rely on it for combat...... however it would probably have a stoppage then too  :


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## StevenPeece (20 Feb 2006)

I believe they've recently released a modified version of the SA80.  The good thing about the SUST sight is that they finally got the needle the right way up, becasue the sight used perviously on the SLR was upside down.


Steve


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## Armymatters (20 Feb 2006)

StevenPreece said:
			
		

> I believe they've recently released a modified version of the SA80.  The good thing about the SUST sight is that they finally got the needle the right way up, becasue the sight used perviously on the SLR was upside down.
> 
> 
> Steve



You mean the upgrades to the rifle where HK pretty much gutted the rifle, and replaced it with an HK action system? Sure, it improved reliability, but that's about it. Adding the HK AG36 grenade launcher only makes this rifle even more heavy (it may look plastic but there is a ton of steel in that rifle!), and in all, for all the money that was spent on SA80, they could have replaced the whole lot with rifles of a different manufacture, say M16 or G36.


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## mudgunner49 (20 Feb 2006)

StevenPreece said:
			
		

> I believe they've recently released a modified version of the SA80.  The good thing about the SUST sight is that they finally got the needle the right way up, becasue the sight used perviously on the SLR was upside down.
> 
> 
> Steve




This is an excellent example of the old adage "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear".  It is still a gigantimungous POS!!!  Even after however many million pounds sterling the UK MOD paid HK of Germany (anyone who doesn't see the irony in that is totally *clueless * - IMNSHO!!!) you can still prevent the bolt from reciprocating by squeezing the upper receiver together *with your  hand - * *I sh!t you not...*

Oh, and the FN is *not * an elephant gun - though it might seem inordinately powerful to those who have never in their lives been allowed access to firearms of any kind.  One of the greatest problems I see with regard to weapons handling and knowledge is the fact that some glean all of their expertise from the military.  There are *very few * true experts (whatever that is) on small arms in the military...


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## mudgunner49 (20 Feb 2006)

Armymatters said:
			
		

> You mean the upgrades to the rifle where HK pretty much gutted the rifle, and replaced it with an HK action system? Sure, it improved reliability, but that's about it. Adding the HK AG36 grenade launcher only makes this rifle even more heavy (it may look plastic but there is a ton of steel in that rifle!), and in all, for all the money that was spent on SA80, they could have replaced the whole lot with rifles of a different manufacture, say M16 or G36.



Have you ever actually had one of these in your hands??  Or are we pontificating from a purely speculative standpoint???  Ahhh, I thought so...


blake


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## Armymatters (20 Feb 2006)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> Have you ever actually had one of these in your hands??  Or are we pontificating from a purely speculative standpoint???  Ahhh, I thought so...
> 
> 
> blake



Handled a unloaded one while I was in Britian a year back, in a gun show. Compared to the M16 that was next to it, the SA80 felt heavier and less well balanced.


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## mudgunner49 (20 Feb 2006)

Armymatters said:
			
		

> Handled a unloaded one while I was in Britian a year back, in a gun show. Compared to the M16 that was next to it, the SA80 felt heavier and less well balanced.



To the best of my knowledge, there are not a lot of "gun shows" in the UK anymore...


blake


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## Armymatters (20 Feb 2006)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> To the best of my knowledge, there are not a lot of "gun shows" in the UK anymore...
> 
> 
> blake



I know. Hence the reason why when I was in Britain, I went. It was a major military expo, so it was really more of a military equipment show than anything else.


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## mudgunner49 (20 Feb 2006)

Armymatters said:
			
		

> I know. Hence the reason why when I was in Britain, I went. It was a major military expo, so it was really more of a military equipment show than anything else.



The term "gun show" suggests that I can buy stuff and waqlk out with it - as I have done many times to my wife's chagrin.  A "military expo" is something else altogether different, and now scarcer than crocodile sh!t in the land of our British brethren.  

When you have a couple of K worth of rounds down range, come on back and comment...


blake


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## Danjanou (20 Feb 2006)

Armymatters said:
			
		

> Handled a unloaded one while I was in Britian a year back, in a gun show. Compared to the M16 that was next to it, the SA80 felt heavier and less well balanced.



Ok so if handling briefly an unloaded weapon at a gun show and later reading all about it makes one an SME in small arms, then I guess using the same logic I’m a fricken astronaut because I once saw the lunar landing module and read all sorts of cool books on it when I was nine  :


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## KevinB (20 Feb 2006)

:

I actually work with a few folk that sing praises of the SA80 and SA80A2 -- of course they are stupid...  When asked why the SAS and other UK SOF elements use the C8SFW/L119A1 - they are dumbfounded.


I've shot both the SA80 and SA80A2 - and you could not pay me enough to take one into combat - 

Of course you cant pay me enough to listen to anymore of Armymatters BS either.


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## Slim (21 Feb 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> :Of course you cant pay me enough to listen to anymore of Armymatters BS either.



Yes...That Recorded Warning  has been on the horizon for quite some time now.

He was warned....and more than we usually do.


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## starlight (23 Feb 2006)

I Shoot the C7 or M16A2 family in competition, and I don't find anything wrong with it. Its actually pretty good for what its designed to do. i have also had it in the field and you do have to take care of it like anything else.
mind you the M-16 had its own share of teething problems. Vietnam era 16s had alot of problems,due to AMMO new designs and such,  but  the current models are very accurate , I think we use a hotter load in Canada as well. 
its not uncommon to land all you shots at 600m with a pretty reasonable MPI (on a stationary target ) with a typical service rifle. and with 5.56 thats pretty good considering ballistics. now Civilian Shooters tend to use a 'barrel float" ( stabilize their barrel) , 10 power scopes match trigger groups and ammo, they get down to between 8 and 6 inch groupings if not better, but then those guys usually shoot 308/7.62 sniper matches as well. for long distances you want 7.62 thats why in the US desgnated marksmen are still useing tuned M14s with scopes.


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## starlight (23 Feb 2006)

BTW  i am fond of the lee enfield but its not a "great" sniper rifle. it was good in its day but a winchester mod 70 or a a 700 with  is what i see at most comps. and realize  that assault rifles are generally personal  weapons and usually only good to 5 or 600m anyway simply because of the 5.56 cartridge


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## Rory (23 Feb 2006)

Coming from observation only but thats usually where most combat would be occurring now adays with in the assault rifles range of fire? Not saying it is all strictly urban conflicts but the days of European styled warfare are gone, no more gigantic open fields with tanks blitzkrieg around. Not saying Afghanistan is closed up and you can't meander around but thats a slight bit different in its own also with the rugged terrain. Bolt actions are great, thats probably why they are still in service in most armies (western armies at least) as a sniper weapon.


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## Retired AF Guy (23 Feb 2006)

Reference the SA-80. I have never fired it and therefore no expert on its capabilities, but I have talked to lots of Brits army types and I cannot remember any of them saying good things about the rifle. One of the big complaints (among many) they had was that the magazine release was on the left side of the rifle and when the soldier was running the mag release would bang against the webbing and the mag would pop-out. The problems got so bad that back in 2002 (if I remember correctly) the Brit papers were reporting that the Ministry of Defence was actually looking at the Canadian C7 as a possible replacement. Instead, they signed a deal with HK; haven't heard whether the improved SA-80 is any better. 

Just a little historical background, the prototype of the SA-80 was called the EM-2 and was originally chambered in 4.8 mm. A friend of mine who was on the NATO weapon trials said that while accurate the EM-2, but the 4.8 mm rounds because of its size was unable to knock the targets down! 

While there were many reasons for adopting the  SA-80, one reported reason is the UK experience with the L1A1 in Northern Ireland. One problem was that the L1A1 was to long and would get entangled with legs, equipment, etc when jumping in/out of APC's, kicking in doors, running through houses, etc.  Adopting firing positions may also had an impact; with the L1A1 (and C1A1) who had about two feet of barrel and forestock sticking around a corner before you had actually engage a target. With the shorter SA-80 you wouldn't have these problems. (Sorry cannot remember where I heard this and could be nothing more than rumour).


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## KevinB (23 Feb 2006)

Mk18 M4A1 (Mk18 is the ECQBR 10.3" upper) 
That and a Glock19 - all you need for Christmas


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Feb 2006)

Isn't that sight the same one Luke Skywalker used on his pistol? ;D


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## George Wallace (23 Feb 2006)

and your Red Man....of course!   ;D


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## KevinB (23 Feb 2006)

8)  can't be a supercool action figure w/o my baseball manager sized dip from hell in...

an EOTECH for CFL 






I'm trying to win the award for the Golden Gun Gold Bag for most barrel lengths used operational - but I am not doing very well, 10.3, 14.5, 16, 18 -- some of the Hill guys are ahead of me.  :'(
But I got a 12.5" and a 20" coming which I think gives me the edge  ;D  - good thing I dont have to walk with this stuff...


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Feb 2006)




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## DFW2T (23 Feb 2006)

Couldn't find my dip....


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## KevinB (23 Feb 2006)

Nice AK -- the Aussies here had a bunch done up with all sorts of bling.  

and of course -- a Glock - great choice.


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## DFW2T (23 Feb 2006)

Thanks,

The rail system is a 3 pc (5 rail) X-47.  I got it a pretty reasonable price as they are fairly new and the dealer wanted some feedback.  The beauty of it is the rear rail isn't attached to the dustcover so I don't have to re-zero my *AIMPOINT M2 * (shameless plug) everytime I clean it.  And of course my Glock ....oh my Glock................


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Feb 2006)

Kev you still looking at getting a rail handguard whoha?


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## KevinB (23 Feb 2006)

Patience    I'll have your rail in a bit...


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Feb 2006)

Oh I am.  I just didn't want to be swept up and forgotten.


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## Guy. E (23 Feb 2006)

Beautiful AK.

How do you legally acquire one of those in Canada?


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## Troopasaurus (23 Feb 2006)

You dont, that weapon is a work weapon for overseas guessing by the profile.


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## Blue Max (23 Feb 2006)

KevinB, have you had a chance to check out any of the Aussie Steyr-AUGs.  There have been comments made from Aus about issues with its manufacture?? ???

I have had the pleasure of firing off a few hundred rnds of an Austrian semi version, with a 20in barrel. Very nice. The owner, a friend of mine swears by it for any sort of unforseen quick reaction, day or night.  Actually this friend also has a Galil in .308 quite the weapon as well, thought his problem is that he can not take it to the range or bush legally.


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## KevinB (24 Feb 2006)

Not really with the Aussie Aug's -- I've seen a few around here but my only AUG experience in with Austrian one - the Aussie SF uses the C8SFW and M4A1 - so that will tell you something...


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## Blue Max (24 Feb 2006)

Interesting how most NATO SOF use a variant of the M16, SAS, French...

Thanks KevinB.


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## darmil (24 Feb 2006)

Nice peace of kit  KevinB  How much was your EOtech?


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