# Cadets Joining the Reserves - Can it be Both?



## corporal-cam

I‘m in cadets (air not army, because I‘m cool   ) and I‘m planing to join the reserves but I was told that if I go on an exercise that as a reservist I am just as responsible for the cadets as the officers are even if I‘m a course cadet not staff, is this true?


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## dano

More or less.. Yes.


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## MikeM

Pick one or the other, and then you don‘t have that problem.


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## 1feral1

The cadets can use your leadership if you are in the militia, and you benefit from both. Picking up a credit, and getting paid  for your reserve time.

I say stay in both.

Cheers,

Wes


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## cdhoult

No, you are not responsible for the cadets to my knowledge, as you‘d be on the exercise as a cadet (unless you volunteer at your unit as a reservist...then you are).

However, you are (and someone correct me if I‘m wrong, for I may very well be) bound by military law, so you have to be a little bit more careful with your actions.

CH


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## Franko

At one time I was both cadet and res. for the same hat badge(8CH) and I didn‘t have a problem. When I was at cadets...I was a cadet RSM

When I was at militia...I was Tpr Franko.

You are NOT responsible for the care of the cadets beyond your regular duties.

But 3005 MWO is correct...you are still bound by the Code of Serice Discipline, keep that in mind.

Regards


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## mglasspo

If what I am reading is correct, you are in both. Which is fine. The only difference would be, that lets say you were a Cadet MWO and a reserve Private, if you refused orders from your officers, they could charge you under the code of service discipline. Which also would mean, that if you were responsible for supervising cadets, both you and your officers will be held responsible if something went wrong and you could have reasonably prevented it.

That said, the same rules apply to a reservist who volunteers his/her time in the same way with a cadet corps. Generally there will be no problem, but if you‘re worried about it at all, stay away.


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## Sapper24

Just wondering out of curiousity, just what some of the cadets will do when they get the choice


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## alan_li_13

why not add the option of the regular forces?


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## Burrows

Its because the Reg Force in my understanding isnt available until after your secondary school education...I believe its 18 as opposed to 16 for the reserves.


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## aesop081

Burrows said:
			
		

> Its because the Reg Force in my understanding isnt available until after your secondary school education...I believe its 18 as opposed to 16 for the reserves.



17 for regs.......thats how old i was when i got in


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## Burrows

Really? well then...I take that back...Added the RegF shall be...


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## sgt_mandal

aesop081 said:
			
		

> 17 for regs.......thats how old i was when i got in



17 with parents permission.


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## Alex252

I thought you could go Reg if you were 16, but had to attened some Junior Level Military College?


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## aesop081

Alex252 said:
			
		

> I thought you could go Reg if you were 16, but had to attened some Junior Level Military College?



It used to be that you could join reg force ROTP if you were 16, you then had to go to prep-year for RMC.............you cannot join as reg force NCM under 17.


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## elscotto937

I know that they have gone back and forth on this over they years, do you have to be completed secondary school to join the Reg force, or is it trade dependant.


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## aesop081

Completing secondary school is not required but very encouraged


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## Docherty

I have my application in progress for the Primary Reseves and I will be staying in cadets because my Cadet Corp has invested their time into me so I have the obligation to give it back.


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## nuttypants

Reserves until i'm done highschool, then regs.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

nuttypants said:
			
		

> Reserves until I'm done highschool, then regs.



That what I was planning on doing as well, but Ive heard that it is much more difficult to transfer from Res. to Reg.


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## alan_li_13

> How would you manage going into the reg force and staying in cadets at the same time? Unless you mean joining the reg force and coming back on your free time to help out with a cadet corp.



Well...there's a few ways to do this. Here's one i'm considering. If i am accepted to ROTP at a civilian university, i can stay in cadets in my free time. But i would be unable to attend Summer Training because i will be doing my officer training with the reg force.

Also, even though ur not attending regular training, you are still on strength with your cadet corp until you've officially left. During that time, you might have joined the regular forces and be training with them.


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## brihard

I can guarantee that one of the most self-punishing things you can do is to stay in cadets after becoming a member of ANY component of the CF. you'll take a lot of crap from the people you work with, and in all honesty, I think it's deserved to a degree.

Cadets is a youth organization designed to foster interest in the CF. By joining the CF, cadets has achieved its goal, and all you're doing by staying in is filling up a slot in your unit structure that another cadet could rise into, giving them the opportunity to get experience. My personal theory - and don't take this the wrong way - is that most people who go this route, staying in cadets after reserves enrolment, is an unconcious desire to impress their fellow cadets with the 'I'm a real soldier now' idea. Well, you've got more important people to be impressing- the corporals and senior privates you'll be working alongside and learning from, and the NCOs who'll be leading you. Refusing to cut the apron strings by staying in what is effectively a kids' organization is not the way to do so,, and in the cases I've encountered, leads to a lot of contempt directed at the person doing so from others in the unit.

While the CATOs DO allow a person to be a member of the reserve force and a cadet at the same time, it just isn't something that's a good idea. Move on, and do everything you can to learn about the next step you're taking.

Just my $.02

A former cadet, and now reservist.


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## Love793

The progression from a cadet corps to a Reg or Reserve force unit is encouraged.   This is why we (members of the CF, Reg, PRes or CIC) spend so much time running and supporting the Cadet movement (Sea, Army and Air).

As for Reservist still being cadets, there is no hard and fast rule on it.   It has been found in the past (through my experiences) that it can be detrimental to the Cadet(s).   It is best for that member to volunteer his/her time after a year or two of being away from the corps as an assistant.   It would help out both organizations that way.

In Windsor, I am currently employed as the Recruiting NCO for the Windsor Regiment, and take great interest in the actions of our 3 corps (202, 1112, and 2828).   Cadets our greatest recruits.   Our CO has recognized this, and pledged 100% support to our corps (where avail, operational tasking priority).   This includes a cadre of Cpls and MCpls whom aid in the training of the corps, and inclusion of them in unit functions and exorcises.

Unfortunately, there are some affiliate units out there whom want little to do with their corps.   This where a lot of confusion/friction occurs between the Cadet organizations and CF units.

Another problem I have seen, coming through the cadet system (Air), and the Primary Reserve is that there are still a lot of CIC officers out there whom feel that they are there to turn out CIC officers.   This is not the reason they are there.   Cadets are there to 1) Foster in youth attributes of good citizenship
                                                         2) Promote Physical fitness
                                                         3) Develope and foster an interest in the Canadian Forces

This is changing however, just as the rest of the CF is changing.   It will just take a while.

Semper Paratus :warstory:


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## Gibson27

> While the CATOs DO allow a person to be a member of the reserve force and a cadet at the same time, it just isn't something that's a good idea. Move on, and do everything you can to learn about the next step you're taking.



well said, cadets is a steping stone to model one into a responsible and respected youth and has been sucessful in creating responsible adults with a direction in life. 

Cut the link and progress, move to reserves if you are in school, and join the forces if you are readt to comit yourself and serve the country.

I was a former cadet, it was great during my youth but it has to end, forces is next for me. Cadets helped me make a career decision, it has no longer no use for me. I 'd love to give back to the youth but i'd rather serve my country as a whole.


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## 21trucker

Whats wrong with doing both?? I can see there may be problems with some units; however, can that individual not bring back the experience he gains in the reserves to help teach his/her fellow cadets? 

Any training with your own unit(reserve) has priority. Having said that, the member can be promoted within the corps in a leadership position; as he/she has gained more experience than some of the cadets. While training of the 2 elements is different, it does overlap in some areas. It is in these areas that he/she can bring the knowledge back to the corps.

Provided it does not cause any problems, there should be no reason why they can't. As someone who volunteers at our affliated corps, i will be surprised if any problems do arise. If they do, we'll deal with it then. We have one member of our unit who is doing both, and we are expecting several more to do the same in the coming year.

Just my 0.02


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## Love793

Trucker,

I have no problems personally with it.  However as you and I know, some "recruits' forget that they are no longer "big fish" when they come to the unit.  This causes a problem when trying to unteach then reteach.  Fortunately in the Garrison we have enough former "Big Fish" to pull those people aside and remind them in the best "Windsor Area" way of their new roles in life.  Some places are different.

When do you guys start parading again?


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## Sapper24

I too feel that there is nothing wrong in doing both, if you have the time to do both and put forth a good effort all the more to ya. As trucker said you can bring bcak the experience to your cadet corps, you can also do that by volunteering with the cadet corps as a reservist and still use your experience if you don't really feel like continuing on with te cadet program.


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## Navalsnpr

I've worked with 5 Cadet Corps over the past 18 Years, of which I still continue to volunteer with Cadets since I joined the RegF in '92.

To my knowledge, there is not any administrative rule preventing Cadets from concurrently being member of the Reserves. Most Corps that I've dealt with encourage Cadets to either stay with the Cadet Program or join the Reserves if that is your wish but not both.

It can become a bit difficult during specific functions. If you are 17 and still in Cadets, you are probably one of the senior ranking Cadets in the Corps. What happens on Remembrance Day when you are a Cadet RSM and expected to be on parade as a Cadet and at the same time your Reserve unit indicates that you are also required to be on parade with them. A conflict will arise that could have been avoided.

If you have your heart set on joining the Reserves, do so and let them know that you wish to assist the Cadet Corps with training.

As for being a Cadet and being in the Reg Force, I wouldn't even go there. Officially as a RegF member, you should be putting in a request through your COC to volunteer with a Cadet Corps. Besides, your first couple of years in the RegF you will be part of the Training System and volunteering time with a Corps is not encouraged. If you fail a course and are volunteering with Cadets, it can come back and hurt you later.


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## condor888000

[quote author=CATO 13-07=topic=24238/post-144014#msg144014 date=1104790135]
STATUS - CADET / MEMBER OF THE PRIMARY RESERVE

PURPOSE

1. The purpose of this order is to clarify the status of cadet versus reservist. It supersedes
Canadian Forces Cadet Policies and Procedures, Article 355, dated 01 August 1988.

GENERAL

2. The provisions for eligibility for membership in a cadet unit are outlined in Chapter 4 of the Queen's Regulations and Orders
(Cadets) (QR(Cadets)). The provisions for enrolment in the Primary Reserve are outlined in CFAO 49-10 and 49-11. Membership in a cadet unit does not legally bar enrolment in the Primary Reserve.

3. Membership in Cadets or the Primary Reserve should be re-evaluated, however, if the cadet/reservist is unable to deal with the increased responsibility. The cadet unit CO shall determine whether continued involvement as a cadet is appropriate.

4. A person may not be a cadet and a member of the CIC concurrently.

CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE

5. A reservist is subject to the Code of Service Discipline under sub-section 55(1)(c)(viii) of the National Defence Act when â Å“in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in any defence establishment or work for the Defenceâ ?. Hence, a cadet who is also a reservist could be charged with a service offence and could be required to appear before a service tribunal.

OPI: D Cdts 5
Date: May 98
Amendment: Original
[/quote]

Quoted from CATO 13-07. As you can see, it is perfectaly allowable for a cadet to be a res as well. _However,_ if the cadet CO feels it will impact your service at either of the units in a negative way, they may inform you to leave the cadet corp. 

Why you would do this I'm unsure, but you technically can.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

Brihard said:
			
		

> Cadets is a youth organization designed to foster interest in the CF. By joining the CF, cadets has achieved its goal



I know that, but do the CIC's, the people incharge of the corps, know that. When my officers first heard that I was planning on quiting cadets at the end of this year (which i still am) to join the reserves, they tried to influence me to stay. They brought me into their office and they would talk to me about how the didnt want me to leave. I would think they would be happy, that cadets has made me want to join the reserves, but it seems I was wrong.


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## alan_li_13

> They brought me into their office and they would talk to me about how the didnt want me to leave. I would think they would be happy, that cadets has made me want to join the reserves, but it seems I was wrong.


I believe its their duty to make sure you are aware of what you are doing, that you know the dangers and risks, etc. They only want the best for you. 
The cadet movement and your corp has spent lots of money and effort on you, when you become a senior, you should start giving back by staying to guide the younger cadets and privates. If they didnt want you to leave, you should take it as a complement that you can do your job and do it well.


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## Navalsnpr

If a Cadet has completed most or all of the core training and now is a asset to the Corps then of course they will try and influence you to stay. You being a C/SGT would put you in a position that you could assist with instruction of junior Cadets and Supervise events. If you are able to do those jobs, then that frees up one of the CIC Officers to complete other tasks.

Looking at it another way, if you were to leave and lets say the Supply Officer now must start instructing, then there will be a delay on Cadets getting their initial issue of Uniforms, exchanges of Uniforms, and possibly ordering of equipment for exercises.


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## Love793

Q.Y Ranger,

Out of curiosity, how much support do you guys get from the QYR?  Again just curious.


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## Meridian

Hmm, Id never considered this a possibility.


As for being RegF and a cadet.. Im sure there is some regulation or another against it...  But I could be wrong.

My roommate at CFSJ (Under ROTP) lived near St Jean and went back to his Cadet Corps and volunteered.. originally he did not request permission, but then realized he was required to if he wanted to wear his Reg F uniform or use any of his kit (ruck, etc)... the COC was fairly accomodating, as long as it did not detract from his studies or course performance.  (Ie he helped out maybe 1-4 times on weekend FTX's).

AS others have mentioned.. while Cadets is certainly something to be proud of, when I was going through ROTP (RMC) there were a significant amount of people coming through who came from Cadets.. many knew each other, and most were the "top" or "senior" cadets... with a plethora of awards, ranks, etc....   I think it took all of two hours on our first day for one of the DS to proclaim that he did not give a rats ---- who had been in Cadets, and that we were all in the real military now.

Basically my suggestion would be to take the training you have gained and apply it when utilizing your skills, but always be open to bigger and better things.  By virtue of adolescent psychology and even liability alone, there are things you were either not capable of doing mentally or physically or legally when you were in Cadets that you may be able to do as you progress in a PRes or RegF role...  I learned a lot from many of the ex-Cadets who helped me get those bed corners folded, and gave suggestions on polishing boots... but when it came down to it, we all got jacked up for various things...   (oh... and many Cadets in the long run ended up being poor on the drill square... mostly because they refused to receive suggestions and advice on improving and thought they "knew it already")

The Canadian Govnt has invested funds into the Cadet organization, and as prev mentioned... it is a great recruiting tool. Probably the best ROI (return on investment) you can give is to join the military, complete training, and then volunteer back with your old Corps..... I can only see this being a far greate investment by yourself than staying on as a "Senior" cadet for one or two more years.


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## Love793

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Quoted from CATO 13-07. As you can see, it is perfectaly allowable for a cadet to be a res as well. _However,_ if the cadet CO feels it will impact your service at either of the units in a negative way, they may inform you to leave the cadet corp.
> 
> Why you would do this I'm unsure, but you technically can.



Yes, but the CO of the PRes unit may also order that Member not to parade with the cadet unit.  I have seen this occur.  Unfortunately for the member whom tried quoting the CATO (which DOES NOT supercede the QR&Os Vol(s)1-5), and parading anyhow, it resulted in that pers being Charged with offences under the NDA. Sect 77 - Disobeying a lawful order, and 129 Conduct Prejudicial to the Good Order and Discipline to be exact.  Touchy legal issues.


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## condor888000

Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure if the Res CO can order a cadet to no longer parade with the unit. That must stink for the person who tried to do both though...getting charged and all...


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## Meridian

Well given that from my understanding he only got charged because he disobeyed an order and all.. I don't really feel much pity for the guy who wanted so badly to be in two military-oriented organizations that he disregarded the disciplinary bases of both..

If I misunderstood the situation, then oops


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## marshall sl

I did both back in the 70's. Joind the reserve battalion in March 76, went to Vernon on staff and was promoted to Cpl in the reserves that fall,the same time I was appointed RSM of the Cadet Corp. Did this til the fall of 77 when i aged out.

Had no problems with at all. In fact the OC of my Reserve Coy was also the CO of the Cadet Corp


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## condor888000

Meridian said:
			
		

> Well given that from my understanding he only got charged because he disobeyed an order and all.. I don't really feel much pity for the guy who wanted so badly to be in two military-oriented organizations that he disregarded the disciplinary bases of both..



True, but it still musta been a real let down for him...


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## Love793

The person was charged because they had violated the NDA, but that's neither here nor there.  Point is although some people can do it concurrently, some have problems doing it and forget what the priorities are.  When a member spends more time parading with a cadet corps as a cadet, than parading with their unit the line may have to be drawn.


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## steely

well, i'm a reservist on a simple Class A day once a week, and my kid's CO at his cadet unit wants me to do a ten day CIC boot camp and become one of their Cadet Officers....My PRes CO digs the idea....Is there anything stopping that?....How would that work then?  I'd be an PRes NCM but commissioned through the Cadet Corps?!?!?! :


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## Saorse

My brother is contemplating dropping cadets for the reserves once he turns 16 in August. It would literally be impossible for him or me to do them both as both training nights are on a Thursday, and the reserves is 2 hours away in Sydney, but he's got the go ahead from our father that he will get him there.

My father asked me the same question last year, but my answer was a swift, "no." Even given the commission and being directly involved with the Forces, I've put so much into the corps, they've put so much back into me, and I would never want to leave the small band of brothers that I've made. Just the way I feel about it.


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## Burrows

Pssst only ossifers get comissions


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## Sharpey

MCpl Saorse, then take your commision and become a CIC Officer. Best of both worlds right?


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## Saorse

Not too sure you can become a CIC at 16.


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## Ranger

I've been in Army cadets for almost 2 years and I've decided to join the Reserves with the Queen's York Rangers. I've been talking with the recruiter, and i'm getting a lot of information.


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## Scott

MCpl Saorse said:
			
		

> Not too sure you can become a CIC at 16.



I am not sure if you're trying to say that you _can_ become CIC at 16 or if you're _not sure_ sure if you can or can not.

Some searching says that you *can not*.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-06_e.asp


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## bugsy

Steely, you can't be both a CIC Officer and a member of the PRes. You would have to transfer out of the PRes to the CIC to become an CIC Officer.  Instead, you could help out at the Cadet unit as an NCM, with permission from your unit, if you wanted to stay in the PRes.


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## Q.Y. Ranger

Love793 said:
			
		

> Q.Y Ranger,
> 
> Out of curiosity, how much support do you guys get from the QYR?   Again just curious.



What do you mean?


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## Love793

Q.Y. Ranger said:
			
		

> What do you mean?



How much "aid" do the QYR provide? (PM Me)


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## mo-litia

Join . . . JOIN NOW! Get paid for your weekends and decide if the regs are for you while you are still in high school.   As a former cadet this is what I did when I was 17. (The age to join the reserves back then.)   Of course, I liked the reserves so much (The $2000 / year post secondary benefit helps as well.    ) that I stayed for the long run; and I'm still getting a pension!   ;D


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## Saorse

Depending on your location to a reserve training base. Even with the opportunity of joining the reserves now, I'd never leave cadets.


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## Pte. Gagnon

In November I'm joining the reserves...then im going Reg


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## Chang

MCpl Saorse said:
			
		

> Depending on your location to a reserve training base. Even with the opportunity of joining the reserves now, I'd never leave cadets.



thats why you do both!!


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## Pte. Gagnon

C-17 Globemaster said:
			
		

> thats why you do both!!



I'd love to do both but Cadets are on Tuesdays and the reserves train on Tuesdays.


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## Alex252

*AS others have mentioned.. while Cadets is certainly something to be proud of, when I was going through ROTP (RMC) there were a significant amount of people coming through who came from Cadets.. many knew each other, and most were the "top" or "senior" cadets... with a plethora of awards, ranks, etc....   I think it took all of two hours on our first day for one of the DS to proclaim that he did not give a rats ---- who had been in Cadets, and that we were all in the real military now.* 

Well im glad that the "DS" said that, bring some of those cocky people backdown to Earth


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## Chang

yea when i parade with the reserves i pretend i don't know anything and just go with the flow. its easier that way. plus some of the reserves drill is different from whats learnt in cadets


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## Love793

C-17 Globemaster said:
			
		

> yea when i parade with the reserves i pretend i don't know anything and just go with the flow. its easier that way. plus some of the reserves drill is different from whats learnt in cadets



Drill is the same, you where taught wrong (either in cadets or reserves).  Good idea to "play dumb" though.  I've seen many young soldiers, fall victim to the 'MCpl, when I was a cadet..." statement.


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## Chang

does front rank stick their arm out while doing right dress?...cause cadets do and my reserves regt. don't.. oh and like the procedure for filling in in front of the officer to recieve award/promotion in reserves is different from what i learnt in cadets. and plus you gotta learn c7 drill...which is really different from drill cadets do with the enfild  ???


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## Sapper24

C7 drill isn't that hard, its kinda like riding a bike once you got it you never forget it, well at least for some people...but ya some of the drill movements are different in the reserves/reg. Forces, like the right dress I noticed that too in one of my first nights parading with the reserves.


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## Zedic_1913

I've seen right dress done both ways.  When I do NCOs Parade (where all NCOs are inspected by the RSM prior to the cadets being inspected) we don't use arms, but we do for anything involving the junior cadets.


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## Love793

C-17 Globemaster said:
			
		

> does front rank stick their arm out while doing right dress?...cause cadets do and my reserves regt. don't.. oh and like the procedure for filling in in front of the officer to recieve award/promotion in reserves is different from what i learnt in cadets. and plus you gotta learn c7 drill...which is really different from drill cadets do with the enfild   ???



The CF Manual of drill and ceremonil (201) is the same regardless of the element.


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## Meridian

IAP and RMC taught me to use arms...


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## Love793

The only reason why we guesstimate our distant without using an appendage, is when under arms (carrying rifle), it's carried in the right arm (usually).  It makes it hard to do, with a wpn in your arm.


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## marshall sl

As I recall, using the arms on the right dress is for new /inexperianced troops. The arms are left at the side for the remainder.


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## foxtwo

My Flight Officer said that you had to quit cadets before you can join the Reserves. Is this true? Sorry if this question has already been asked/answered.


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## Burrows

No,  It is incorrect.  The only way you can be forced to leave cadets is if your CO and the CO of your cadet corps agree that you being discharged from cadets is the best thing.


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## Sapper24

you don't have to quit cadets, pendind on who you are, you can do both at the same time, from my point of view it is better to quit cadets and join the reserves, but to answer your question, no you don't have to quit cadets to join the reserves


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## Saorse

It really is something how greatly opinions differ on this subject.


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## Jonny Boy

i have spent the past year trying to decide what i want to do, go to college and join reserves, go to rmc (didn't have the proper credits so nothing happend there), join reg force and try to go to college, go regs only, or stay at home and get a full time job and pay rent. you really do get lost when you know you have nothing coming after the summer.

i think i am going to go with the reg force. i have an application all filled out for a vehicle technician. it sounds like something i want to do. and after 4 years i will be a fully qualified mechanic.


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## william

I was thinking of staying in cadets until im old enough to get into the regs and then quit cadets.
Cadets has been a good experience for me but i think that the regs would be a better one.


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## Dogbert

I never thought you could do both..weird. I wouldnt do that though, would probably take up to much time.

I guess its a difference in opinion, I never even thought you could until I saw this thread.


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## ouyin2000

neither the reserves nor the cadets say yes or no directly, it's all based on whether your cadet unit CO and your reserve unit CO both say yes


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## alan_li_13

> No,  It is incorrect.  The only way you can be forced to leave cadets is if your CO and the CO of your cadet corps agree that you being discharged from cadets is the best thing.



Actually, according to the recruiting center, you must leave cadets once you have sworn in to the Forces. But i asked this in the context of a Reg force member. It probably is different for reserves.


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## Saorse

It is definitely different for Reserves.


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## dano

Well its official now, I can't join the CF till I have 'subsantially' increased my Education. Which is exactly what I will be doing now. Taking Police Foundations at college and in 2 years applying to the reg force as a MP and my second Moc INF.

I hope none of you have to take the CFAT more then once.. But one good thing out of this is I've learned patience is a virtue.


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## Ranger

I quit cadets in April or March of htis year and I went on a CO-OP trip, May 27th for the QYRANG reserves. It was so amazing. I shot the C-6 and the C-7 Full Auto. I'm doing CO-Op with the Reserves all second semester of next year, if I get in of course.


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## Argyll_2347

As soon as I had turned 16 (January 2002), I walked into the Argyll recruiting office one parade night.  After being in Cadets for 3 years then, I was so sick of it.  I was so eager to join because I had been so interested in the Army when I was younger and thought that Cadets would be a good prelude experience.  I joined when I was 13 and had a pretty good time.  Our corps literally had 12 cadets on parade when I had first joined, but through a lot of effort, we recruited to get 30+ on parade.  Towards the end, I had been promoted to Sergeant even though I only still had Basic (the P&D course even).

The problems that I saw were that nearly everyone else who was in cadets wasn't there for the same reasons that I was.  I took it pretty seriously and was looking to get something out of it, but I suppose I had too high of hopes.  Too many people didn't take it seriously, really immature kids from Hamilton who were trying to impress each other by defying the 'authority' of the NCOs (which we had very little of anyways, 'due to the system').

So that's my little story/rant.  I'm glad that I had gotten out of Cadets as soon as I did.  I didn't even stick around during the application process.  So, if any cadets who are looking to join the CF want any of my advice, I would say evaluate your initial intentions of joining Cadets, see how you are/aren't enjoying cadets and for what reasons.  I had a great time, socially, in cadets... but the fact that we never got to do any of the 'Army' stuff that really distinguished us from the other Cadet Branches (Air get to fly, Sea get to go sailing, but what does Army get to do differently?) really was a deciding factor to leave.  I'm glad I did... It was three years ago yesterday that I was sworn into the CF.


----------



## Boomer42

Hello I'm new here

 I'm a SGT cadet from 299 yarmouth lions and I'm 15 years old next year I'm joining the reserves but i didn't now I could do both join Reserves and still be in cadets(Technically*) 

Thank you for all this useful information,
A fellow cadet told me about this site and told me it could answer my questions and it did! thanks you guys! 

I'm going to do both if i can and if my CO tell me to leave cadets because it might be to much i would gladly do so. But if i do both i hope to help my fellow cadets.

But i don't think they would let me out of cadet that easily because I'm a experienced cadet/Senior and there lot of new cadets.

I cant wait to join the Reserves, also get my first job (and my first pay check)

I'm Ready to serves my country (and still be in cadets)


----------



## Boomer42

> Don't do both, pick one. The reserves can take up alot of your time, and requires dedication. And you don't want to be stuck having to decide between the two (although every time the reserves WILL take priority).
> 
> Time to grow up. Either decide that your prepared to work with the army, or that you don't want to cut the apron strings yet and stay in cadets. Don't do both, cadets will serve no further purpose once you get into the CF.
> 
> And remember, its up to both CO's. If one does not approve it, then its not happening.



Thank you piper for you opinion appreciate it

I would gladly quit cadets And join the reserves But I'm only going to to do both for 1 year (if they let me)  then quite because allot of Senior quit or got to old and now there only 6 Seniors (including me) and 20 new cadet and there not very trained yet.

If I have to quite cadets o well Reserves all the way!


----------



## Harding299

I cant beleive you would quit cadets to join the reserves after all u said, your sqn clearly needs you if the senior to cdt ratio is so high. If u want a paycheck, get a job at a store, u make the same amount of money, and u dont have to disband cadets. Even if u quit cadets, u are still considered a cadet, that is why when ur in cadets u cant quit when u turn 18 and be a O/Cdt until you officially age out at 19. So if you quit, u are still considered a cadet by the reserves and they still might not accept you. There is however a chance u could be in the reserves and cadets, and they accept you, i would gladly join as well. but dont quit cadets until you know you are in for sure. because if you disband, try to join the reserves and are not accepted, you will not be accepted back into cadets with much friendlyness. :threat:


----------



## Boomer42

I'm not quiting cadets before i join the Reserves. after I join I will eventually. Ya the Senior to new cadets is high i don't think our CO could Handel two there Senior leaving to join the Reserves(theoretical*) Harding.   

Go 299 Yarmouth lions :threat:!


----------



## c4th

I am in total agreement with Piper on this one.

The Aim of the Cadets as you well know is:
"¢ To develop in youth the attributes of good citizenship and
leadership.
"¢ To promote physical fitness.
"¢ To stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces.

If you are joining the CF then the cadet program has more than filled it's aim.   No man can serve two masters.

I would suggest that you stay with your corps/sqn only until you start pre-BMQ training.   Offer your services to your OC as a CI / Volunteer if you still wish to be of service to cadets.   Unless you are on a flying or para scholarship there is absolutely no reason you should feel compelled to stay in cadets.

I spent 4 years in the cadet program and 13 years in the reserves.   Frankly you will not have the time for cadets, reserves, and school without seriously damaging your performance in at least one.   The cadets is a great program for youth, and it certainly helped me in basic training and JLC later on.   The reasons for devoting your time and efforts to one military pursuit will become apparent when you start your training.


----------



## condor888000

Harding299 said:
			
		

> Even if u quit cadets, u are still considered a cadet, that is why when ur in cadets u cant quit when u turn 18 and be a O/Cdt until you officially age out at 19. So if you quit, u are still considered a cadet by the reserves and they still might not accept you.



What are you talking about? You can leave cadets at any time, NO STRINGS ATTACHED. If you leave then you are no longer a cadet. That simple. And isn't it 18 to be OCdt?


----------



## Jonny Boy

condor888000 said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? You can leave cadets at any time, NO STRINGS ATTACHED. If you leave then you are no longer a cadet. That simple. And isn't it 18 to be OCdt?



ya last year i had a O/Cdt that was 18. he quit cadets and became CIC


----------



## aesop081

Harding299 said:
			
		

> I cant beleive you would quit cadets to join the reserves after all u said, your sqn clearly needs you if the senior to cdt ratio is so high. If u want a paycheck, get a job at a store, u make the same amount of money, and u dont have to disband cadets. Even if u quit cadets, u are still considered a cadet, that is why when ur in cadets u cant quit when u turn 18 and be a O/Cdt until you officially age out at 19. So if you quit, u are still considered a cadet by the reserves and they still might not accept you. There is however a chance u could be in the reserves and cadets, and they accept you, i would gladly join as well. but dont quit cadets until you know you are in for sure. because if you disband, try to join the reserves and are not accepted, you will not be accepted back into cadets with much friendlyness. :threat:



Too lazy to spell *YOU* ?


----------



## Harding299

too stupid to know what u means? :


----------



## aesop081

Harding299 said:
			
		

> too stupid to know what u means? :



WOW...that's clever........you're going to go far i can tell   :


----------



## McFarlane

and back on topic...

I am joining the reserves, and going to BMQ this summer in meaford, permitting i get the call (next 2 weeks I hear from the RC).  I told my cadet CO of this, and he congratulated me, so he has no problems with it.  He made me promise that I would stay in cadets until i age out (Dec 14, 2006), and that I would attend cadet exercises when reserves and cadets overlap.  I was shocked that he would ask this, because he knows the importance of dedication in the CF (he was in Sierra Leone as a Reg Capt., and is now ret.).  I did in fact promise to remain in cadets for the next year and a half, however all my attention will be diverted to the reserves.  I would have left cadets, if our corps were in a better state.  The situation is, I am a WO in cadets, and also next in line for RSM when she leaves this coming february.  There is no one else responsible or qualified enough for the job apparently.  Our numbers situation is this: 1 CWO, 2 WO, 2 SGT, 1 MCPL, 4 CPL, 4 CDT, which only totals up to 14.  His words to me were that he needs me to help him with recruiting over the next year.  Our goal is to recruit 50 cadets, expecting 20 to stay for the next year.  I know someone will say to quit cadets and stick with reserves, but the dedication will still be there for the PRes, just less in the cadet corps.  
I am actually hoping that my CO will not allow me to be in both, so I don't have to go back on my word, and still leave cadets .


----------



## Boomer42

Yeah our squadron is about the same situation and I'm also joining the reserves in the next year.

I hope everything turn out good for you McFarlane. 






with responsibility comes more more stress!!


----------



## Zedic_1913

condor888000 said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? You can leave cadets at any time, NO STRINGS ATTACHED. If you leave then you are no longer a cadet. That simple. And isn't it 18 to be OCdt?


A friend of mine will be an OCdt at age 17 (however that is through ROTP).   Also as far as I know you must be at least 18 to be a CIC Officer (you do need your high school diploma which typically takes until one is 18 or almost 18).

In my opinion ... as nice as it may seem to do both, I think it is far more effective to put 100% into one or the other then 50% into each.   It is for that reason I decided to not join the reserves and remain in cadets.   Some people may also have troubles with the contrasting roles, one being leader the other being follower.


----------



## tabernac

Ok, back off topic.


			
				Harding299 said:
			
		

> Even if u quit cadets, u are still considered a cadet, that is why when ur in cadets u cant quit when u turn 18 and be a O/Cdt until you officially age out at 19. So if you quit, u are still considered a cadet by the reserves and they still might not accept you.



[rant]You dont disband cadets(you quit/retire), thats when the WHOLE ORGANIZATION gets the axe. Although you might be of age for cadets, that does not mean that DND will label you a cadet and prevent you from joining. [/rant]

I've already asked my CO whether he would let me join the reserves, and he said no. I don't think this is the end of the world because you are only a kid once in your lifetime, enjoy it while its still yours.

Edit: Grammar


----------



## Boomer42

> You clearly do not understand the situation here:
> 
> CF-serving and defending your country, doing something useful.
> 
> Cadets-a youth organisation, a place for fun and games (I'm being honest, not cruel to cadets here).
> 
> You see, Boomer42 has recognized that it is time for him to grow up, get out of a group for kids and serve his country to pay back the debt that he (and everyone else) owes the country. The difference between you and Bommer 42 is that you seem to think that he owes cadets something...he owes cadets NOTHING. But, he owes his country something, and the way to pay that back is to serve your country, and one of the ways to accomplish that is to join the CF. You on the other hand seem to be content to stay with the fun and games group and act like a kid while Boomer42 has decided to grow up into a man (or woman as may be the case).
> 
> Cadets ain't that important my friends, the CF is. I had my fun time in cadets, learned one or two things and then decided that it was time for me to grow up and move on. Stay in cadets as long as you want, maybye it will work for you. But if you want something more, don't stay and waste your time, move on. You owe cadets nothing at all.
> 
> I realise I may be laying on the flag waving/good old maple syrup line a little thick, but thats how it works. Two types of people, those willing to serve (whether it be CF, police, fire etc) and those willing to let people serve for them. Which one are you?
> 
> And by the way Harding299, I suggest you pack your internet bags and bugger of of this site and over to cadet-world, you'll find people there who think more like you and *shudder* type like you too.



Thank you piper
 I greatly accept anyone opinions on this subject (as long its said in a professional way) but you are all Right 
and harding and me is in the same squadron he is also little right to!

 I take the CF very seriously and cadets to.

 In the end its my decision (and the CO)


----------



## Boomer42

I Would But he higher rank then me id like to stay in cadets longest I possibly can 
 thank you very much :

I'm still 15 i still got a year of cadets and don't want tell the Reserve CO I got kicked out of cadets for as you said it 





> a good swift kick in the rear


.


----------



## Burrows

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> I've already asked my CO whether he would let me join the reserves, and he said no. I



Your CO is a fool.


----------



## Saorse

Just make sure not to overwork yourself. We all have opinions to give on this matter, yet cadets, reserves, school, and a weird tool appropriately named life can build up on us all. Ensure that what ever decision is made is one that satisfys you, and is one you can handle!


----------



## condor888000

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Your CO is a fool.


Or is concerned about the difficulties of being a cadet/reservist. Give the guy some credit. You know next to nothing of the situation and are insulting the man. Maybe you should find out more of whats going on before insulting the commisioned officer. They tend to not like that......


----------



## Burrows

It doesn't matter what the officer likes or dislikes.  I say if the cadet is willing to do both then go ahead.  With MANY Commanding Officers who adopt this philosophy, I wonder wether or not they know about the militia.


----------



## condor888000

I disagree. Its up to him/her to run the unit to the best of their abilites in the way they see fit. If that includes not approving a cadet who is also a reservist, then so be it. If its really all that big a deal the cadet could always leave and join the reserves. And I still stand by what I said. You should not have insulted a commisioned officer in the CF when you have very little information on how they do their job.


----------



## Burrows

All good points, but it seems the case with many a CO I have met that they view the militia as a bad thing.  Personally, I would encourage the moving up instead of holding a cadet back.


----------



## ouyin2000

the Cadet Unit CO can't say whether a person can join the reserves or not, it is the individual's choice. It is up to the Cadet Unit CO to either allow this person to stay in cadets, or remove them accordingly.

the CO can't just say "No you're not joining the reserves"


----------



## Saorse

Agreed. The CO does run the Corps, so I guess he can accept, deny, or discharge any cadet he so chooses, but it must be within reason, and joining the militia is never a valid reason unless it's taking from your cadet training, in which case he _might_ have reason for it.


----------



## c4th

McFarlane said:
			
		

> I told my cadet CO of this, and he congratulated me, so he has no problems with it.   He made me promise that I would stay in cadets until i age out (Dec 14, 2006), and that I would attend cadet exercises when reserves and cadets overlap.



IMO the cadet CO should be reminded of QR&O Vol 1 Art 20.04 which states No officer or non-commissioned member shall use any drug.....

A couple of points on this.

Your cadet CO must realize that by joining the reserves you are on your way out.   Quite frankly, he has absolutely no business asking you to place cadets ahead of reserves.   Furthermore he is asking you to be disloyal to the service he is commissioned in.   Trust me on this, your cadet CO is doing you a disservice.   If he tries pressuring you, quit.

Your cadet CO is a Capt or Maj and your reserve CO who is a LCol will require you to attend training not only to meet his aim but in order to train you as a soldier.   In my world LCol's outrank Capt's and Maj's of any stripe.

As a reservist you can by subjected to administrative action for failing to attend training and or parades.   Annual assessments will be less than stellar if you choose cadets over your new unit.   Cadets can't do a thing to you.   You are ending one stage of your life (youth) and embarking on another (manhood).   Don't step off on the wrong foot by clinging to the past and dilly-dallying in your future.   First impressions mean allot.   Being a cadet in the PRes is not going to help that.   

As a member of the CF you take an oath which you should consider as binding.   You have taken no such oath in cadets.   It is unlawful to serve in two militaries or units at the same time.   Personally I think that that should extend to Cadets too.   

By rights, once you are sworn into the CF the CO of the Reserve Unit owns you.   At that time you should advise your chain of command that you are still in cadets and are also attending their training.   There are probably above board solutions to this that will be of benefit to the cadets and the reserves.


----------



## Neill McKay

2332Piper said:
			
		

> And by the way Harding299, I suggest you pack your internet bags and bugger of of this site and over to cadet-world, you'll find people there who think more like you and *shudder* type like you too.



Say what you like about Cadet World, of course, but the staff do a very good job of maintaining a high level of civility there.


----------



## c4th

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> I've already asked my CO whether he would let me join the reserves, and he said no.



Who stopped your CO from joining the reserves?  Unless your CO is also your parent or guardian he is not in the application process.  A letter of reference from him is a nice to have but in reality recruiters will put allot more stock in the aptitude test and interview than the feelings of your cadet CO.  

If you want to join the reserves, just do it.


----------



## Saorse

A'ye, and I personally would never give up cadets for the militia. Many would, many wouldn't, and some do both: it's all in preference, and like you said, this preference has no cadet CO bearing whatsoever.


----------



## McFarlane

> I told my cadet CO of this, and he congratulated me, so he has no problems with it.  He made me promise that I would stay in cadets until i age out (Dec 14, 2006), and that I would attend cadet exercises when reserves and cadets overlap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This CO and the cadet in question should both have a chat with the reserve unit's Adjudant so that he/she may explain the basics of the CF. The CF takes priority, NOT cadets and if you cannot make that distinction that don't let the door wack you on the way out, or quit cadets. One of the two.
Click to expand...


In the rest of my post, I said that my CO is a former Reg Captain, so he knows the basics of the CF.  I was in no way saying I agreed with this decision and sat around and let it happen.  I will have yet another talk with my CO, explaining once again how the PRes will take priority, or I will no longer be a part of the cadet corps.  My attention will be fully put towards the reserves, whether I am in cadets as well or not.  Whenever there is a conflict concerning scheduling between the reserves and cadets, the solution is easy to figure out, as the PRes will take full priority.

Just clarifying that that quotes is not all that I had posted.
Cheers


----------



## Argyll_2347

I have to agree with what 2332Piper has been saying.  It's all about your personal priorities.  Right now, you're a teenager with a whole future ahead of you.  You can only stay in Cadets until 19... then you can join the Reserves if you like.  If you're so hardcore for Cadets right now, then wait the few more years for the Reserves.  Bottom line is that if you're in both, the CF _definitely_ takes priority over the Cadets... no matter what your CO says.


----------



## tabernac

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Your CO is a fool.





			
				c4th said:
			
		

> Who stopped your CO from joining the reserves?   Unless your CO is also your parent or guardian he is not in the application process.   A letter of reference from him is a nice to have but in reality recruiters will put allot more stock in the aptitude test and interview than the feelings of your cadet CO.
> 
> If you want to join the reserves, just do it.





			
				ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> the Cadet Unit CO can't say whether a person can join the reserves or not, it is the individual's choice. It is up to the Cadet Unit CO to either allow this person to stay in cadets, or remove them accordingly.
> 
> the CO can't just say "No you're not joining the reserves"



To quote #1, my CO is not a fool, I understand why he wont let me. To #2... I don't really understand what your trying to say.... To #3 : My CO cant say "Your not joining the reserves", but he can remove me from my corps, with my parents assistance. But that also brings up whether my parents want me to do both, and might prevent my CO from "kicking" me out. Whether he has the power to kick me out or not, I dont know.


----------



## c4th

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> To #2... I don't really understand what your trying to say....



It's this simple:  If you are under 17 the only person who can stop you from joining the army is your legal guardian.  Anyone who seeks to stop you from trying to serve your country is not your friend, or mentor, or worth the time of day.

Make the snap!  Realize that this is not the hardest or most important decision you are ever going to make and by the sounds of it you have already made it.  As soon as you are ready, I'm sure you will get on with it.


----------



## ouyin2000

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> To #3 : My CO cant say "Your not joining the reserves", but he can remove me from my corps, with my parents assistance. But that also brings up whether my parents want me to do both, and might prevent my CO from "kicking" me out. Whether he has the power to kick me out or not, I dont know.


what i'm saying is that your Cadet unit CO does NOT have any say as to if you can join the reserves or not. That is a decision you make on your own. The cadet CO can by all means dissagree with your decision, and has the power to remove you with just cause.


----------



## 1feral1

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Or is concerned about the difficulties of being a cadet/reservist. Give the guy some credit.


 NOT! As far as I am concerened I find attitudes like this CO has selfish, and seriously putting his opinion ahead of a cadet's progression in life, in this case joining the PRes when of age. To halt/block/hinder or whatever you may call it, a young person from a paying job, and into the CF as a Reservist is just not on, and when/if I reached the age of enlistment, I'd be leaving that Corps with a complaint in wriiting if not sooner, finding another Corps that has a CO with better work ethics.

Wes


----------



## condor888000

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd likely be doing the same thing. However, the CO is likely looking out for what he/she feels to be in the best intrests of the unit. Do I agree with the way that it was presented? Not necessarily. Do I understand what the CO is likely trying to do? I think so. As many have said, it strikes me as likely to be better in the long run if the person in question chose one and give it 100% as opposed to giving each 50%.


----------



## Lost_52

Whats all this?? The recruiter at my unit told me that it is mandatory to quit cadets in order to even join the reserves?? is he lying bcuz i doubt he would be misinformed since that is his job  ???


----------



## Kat Stevens

I just wonder how someone reconciles being a cadet RSM with being a reserve boot?  You're King Krap of Turd Island on Monday  and Wednesday night, and the lowest life form on the planet on Thursday and Saturday........

Kat


----------



## Saorse

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> Whats all this?? The recruiter at my unit told me that it is mandatory to quit cadets in order to even join the reserves?? is he lying bcuz i doubt he would be misinformed since that is his job   ???



He's lying one hundred percent.


----------



## Lost_52

is this true?? because the recruiter at my unit for reserves told me it woud be mandatory for me to quit cadets to be able to join the reserves. So is he lying becuz i doublt he would be misinformed becuz that is indeed his job, he is a recruiter. thnx

Cheers


----------



## Trinity

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> is this true?? because the recruiter at my unit for reserves told me it woud be mandatory for me to quit cadets to be able to join the reserves. So is he lying becuz i doublt he would be misinformed becuz that is indeed his job, he is a recruiter. thnx
> 
> Cheers



Misinformed... in the army.... ALL THE TIME

What does he have to gain from lying to you.....  

I knew someone who did both 10 years ago (cadets and res) and was told it was not allowed.

But he did it anyways.  Whatever...  If you want to, then do it.  But... get paid for one, not for the other.


----------



## Docherty

I am still in Cadets as well as my Affiliated Unit. It's a good situation because one night I am at the top, the next night I am at the bottom.


----------



## 1feral1

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> Whats all this?? The recruiter at my unit told me that it is mandatory to quit cadets in order to even join the reserves?? is he lying bcuz i doubt he would be misinformed since that is his job   ???



I don't think he is lying as this indicates dishonesty, he is more than likely misinformed by one of his superiors. There is a difference.


----------



## Lost_52

hmmmmmm i dunno maybe ill talk to him again and suggest this site to him  ;D thnx guys


----------



## Lost_52

hmmm im not sure maybe ill talk to him again and suggest this site to him  ;D  thnx guys


----------



## Trinity

Docherty said:
			
		

> I am still in Cadets as well as my Affiliated Unit. It's a good situation because one night I am at the top, the next night I am at the bottom.



I could do that too without being in cadets..
or the military for that fact...  ;D ;D ;D


----------



## Trinity

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Do I just have a sick mind or are you straying from the path of virtue again padre?



Must be your sick mind.


----------



## Ranger

Talk about WAY Off Topic!!


----------



## Burrows

So was your post.

Lets bring it back on topic please.


----------



## armygurl_557

I think that it is more of a suggestion to quit cadets because your training for cadets interferes with your training for the reserves.. A girl who used to be in my section was in the reserves, and she ended up quitting because it was too much work to have to juggle cadets, the reserves, and school all at once.


----------



## armygurl_557

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> Whats all this?? The recruiter at my unit told me that it is mandatory to quit cadets in order to even join the reserves?? is he lying bcuz i doubt he would be misinformed since that is his job   ???



Are You Just posting this on a few different topics to get your post count up? Because I could have swore I saw this on another topic?


----------



## Lost_52

no so that i can get as many opinions as i can 

Cheers


----------



## Burrows

Yeah heres the thing. I don't care.  Don't fill the forums with the same question.

Nuff Said.


----------



## dgrayca

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> is this true?? because the recruiter at my unit for reserves told me it woud be mandatory for me to quit cadets to be able to join the reserves. So is he lying becuz i doublt he would be misinformed becuz that is indeed his job, he is a recruiter. thnx
> 
> Cheers


Your recruiter is wrong as per CATO 1307, CFAO 49-10 and 49-11 and Chapter 4 QR(Cadets).


----------



## condor888000

Might as well say why the recruiter might be right though. If either the Cadet unit CO or the Res unit CO says you must make your choice and be in one not the other, then it isn't possible to do both.

Burrows/any directing staff member, can we sticky this or put in the FAQ? It seems to come up a lot. Or at least every couple months.


----------



## Burrows

Added to the FAQ.


----------



## tang72

The question is army cadet or the reserves? A relative of mine is in the reserves as an infantry and I told him about me wanting to join cadets instead and he told me that army cadets dont even do half of what the actual military does. Is this true? for those of you with cadet and reserve exp. can you please tell me the big diff.? thanks alot


----------



## Burrows

We don't run around and shoot blanks at the enemy force on exercises, but we do learn drill, bushcraft, and leadership skills.


----------



## Jonny Boy

tang72 said:
			
		

> The question is army cadet or the reserves? A relative of mine is in the reserves as an infantry and I told him about me wanting to join cadets instead and he told me that army cadets dont even do half of what the actual military does. Is this true? for those of you with cadet and reserve exp. can you please tell me the big diff.? thanks alot



it is true that we dont do half the stuff they do. we just do different things. the reserves is filled with soldiers, the army cadets is filled with cadets. soldiers are trained to fight for there country, cadets are trained to be better leaders of tommorow


----------



## RangerRay

Removed by moderator


----------



## teenagecommando

Ok, I have a buddy in the GGFG who's also in my cadet core, and he says he cannot come anymore  (he wasnt a cadet, he was just coming to help out)
His buddy in his unit asked him about it, his warrant heard this and then started to verbally kick the shit out of him about it, saying that the real army and cadets don't mix. 
So, now my buddy refuses to come, claiming if he comes again and his Warrant hears about it then he will be kicked out of the army.
So can anyone help me out? I've tried countless times to coax him into coming, but he still will not. Is there any rule in the CF saying that you cannot help out a cadet core and be in the army? If theres not, does a Warrant have any right whatsoever to control my friends life outside the army, and limit his extracirricular activities??? 

Confused Sergeant


----------



## Canadian Psyco

I don't think that the warrent can control his outside life, off the base. but cadets and the Army don't mix to good, you can only really be in one or the other, as by being the in Army, even at the lowest rank you still outrank every single person/office in cadets, so it may go to a persons head and start ordering everyone around and such, so they try to stop people being in both.


----------



## Drummie

I beg to differ. One can easily 'be' in both. PRes/Reg F  support is an integral part of the CCM. Every summer at Cadet Summer Training Centre's across the country, Res F/Reg F NCMs and occasionally officers are signed on as instructors/advisors for the duration of the camp. All the way from Pte's to CWO's. 

The 3rd aim of the CCM is to "stimulate an interest in the 3 elements of the CF"..It's a lot easier to accomplish that aim with actual troops from the forces stopping by now an again, which is very common in cadet units across the country. 

And no Canadian Physco, an NCM volunteering at a cadet unit does not outrank "every person/office" in cadets. If by office, you meant to say officer, even though CIC training is completey different than any training in the forces, they still hold a commision from the Queen, and therefore 'outrank' any NCO if that's how you want to look at it.

If I were the soldier in the GGFG, I would politley tell the WO that my time off duty is my own, and none of his business. 
Even though a large majority of ppl in the forces thinks cadets is a waste of money, and a bunch of 'pansies', here at RMC, at least 45% of my flight alone has previous cadet experience. 
Cadets is fulfilling its role at a recruiting tool....there aren't exactly hoards of ppl lined up outside recruiting centres.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I don't know of any applicable regulations, but once in a while a former cadet who had joined my unit would return to assist the cadet unit on an informal (ie. unfunded) "guest" basis.   Assuming there are no statutory prohibitions, misuse of funds, or conflicts of duty, why not?


----------



## reccecrewman

I can also add to this........... My Regiment has a cadet "RCD" outfit in Ottawa, and there are a number of our NCM's who are actively involved in helping them out in their spare time, and the Regiment is just fine with it.  For the most part, they are ex-Army cadets and want to be able to continue helping to guide the youths.


----------



## AoD71

I don't understand, and cannot think of a decent reason why they don't mix. When I was in the Army Cadets a long time ago I would enjoy visits from a real soldier, someone who's been through the "shit". It's an opportunity to learn new things from people who know what they are doing. Afterall, it was someone who was in the Army who convinced me to join the Cadets.


----------



## GO!!!

The only reason against it would be that you as a member of the CF are forbidden from holding two ranks with any organisation which is a part of the CF, even if they are equivalent.

So I could not be a Strategic Corporal in my unit and a CIC officer in the local cadet corps.

Fighting 47th, you are wrong. The reg F NCMs that are at local Cadet trg centers are from reg force units. They are tasked to a Cadet corps, usually for the summer, before returning to their units. They are not cadets, and while they are there, they are expected to pay compliments to CIC officers, but generally are not under their command, as they have no military management trg.

As for saying the Cadets are not a bunch of pansies because some of them go on to RMC? lets just remember that Kingston is not usually synonomous with hardcore either, and that officer Cadets in Kingston have less military training than most of the troops they will one day try to lead. IMHO, officers that are DEO are usually more well rounded and capable of thinking outside the box than their RMC bretheren, as they are not so completely insitutionalised.

A *better * statement would be that Cadets are paid, can go on courses like Basic Para, and have a rank structure that rewards hard work and perserverence.


----------



## Springroll

It's called volunteering and there is nothing wrong with someone in the CF volunteering their time to help out a cadet corps.

Back in my days as a cadet we had quite a few CF members that were volunteers with us, teaching us cam and concealment, field movements, house clearing, and even goign aussie style down the cliff during our repelling weekends. Even just general supervision during training and PT nights.

Plus it can look pretty good on your file.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Fighting 47th, you are wrong. The reg F NCMs that are at local Cadet trg centers are from reg force units. They are tasked to a Cadet corps, usually for the summer, before returning to their units. They are not cadets, and while they are there, they are expected to pay compliments to CIC officers, but generally are not under their command, as they have no military management trg.
> 
> As for saying the Cadets are not a bunch of pansies because some of them go on to RMC? lets just remember that Kingston is not usually synonomous with hardcore either, and that officer Cadets in Kingston have less military training than most of the troops they will one day try to lead. IMHO, officers that are DEO are usually more well rounded and capable of thinking outside the box than their RMC bretheren, as they are not so completely insitutionalised.
> 
> A *better * statement would be that Cadets are paid, can go on courses like Basic Para, and have a rank structure that rewards hard work and perserverence.




Ding Ding Ding!


----------



## GO!!!

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Our past RSM was in the military, as well as cadets as the same time.


 
Unfortunately, he was in violation of certain QR+Os, and one of his units should have said something, as it is a service offence.


----------



## yoman

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, he was in violation of certain QR+Os, and one of his units should have said something, as it is a service offence.



Its a service offence to be in cadets and the reserves at the same time?


----------



## condor888000

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Technically no, you can do it with the approval of both CO's...unless it has changed recently.


It hasn't. Still on the books.

EDIT: But for cadets and reserve units only. Reg force is still a no go.

And yeah, your cadet unit can tell you you're obligated to be there, but you're really not. They don't have much (read: any) power over your life outside of that unit. That includes your time when not at a cadet activity.


----------



## yoman

condor888000 said:
			
		

> It hasn't. Still on the books.
> 
> EDIT: But for cadets and reserve units only. Reg force is still a no go.
> 
> And yeah, your cadet unit can tell you you're obligated to be there, but you're really not. They don't have much (read: any) power over your life outside of that unit. That includes your time when not at a cadet activity.



Example to what condor just posted.

My cadet unit wants to see all of flag party and band at the remembrance day ceremony next week. But if I chose too I don't need to go. 

I don't know how exactly how things work in the reserves but it would seem odd to me that they can tell you when and where your going to be on certain dates / times since your not in the reg force.


----------



## GO!!!

yoman said:
			
		

> I don't know how exactly how things work in the reserves but it would seem odd to me that they can tell you when and where your going to be on certain dates / times since your not in the reg force.



Imagine, an army with the capability to tell soldiers where to go and when! These are commonly referred to as "orders" and many militaries have them. It's even a crime not to obey them! Our reserves are part of the army, Cadets are not, which is why you can "choose" which events you feel like attending, and soldiers can't.


----------



## condor888000

Point, but a reasonable excuse as to why you're not there should be accepted. Ie: "I'm in the reserves, so that takes precendence," would hopefully be recieved with an open mind.


----------



## yoman

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Imagine, an army with the capability to tell soldiers where to go and when! These are commonly referred to as "orders" and many militaries have them. It's even a crime not to obey them! Our reserves are part of the army, Cadets are not, which is why you can "choose" which events you feel like attending, and soldiers can't.



I understand everything you said. But what if for example, they order you to show up at x at x time but you are working or have some other things going on (ex: Family reasons). Would they frown upon you?



			
				2332Piper said:
			
		

> You don't have to show up. But you can also be declared unfit for service in the CF or non-effective strength and told to leave the unit and the CF. Usually, most people who join the reserves take it seriously and show up for as many things as they can. No troop who wants to be respected will skip out Nov. 11th or other important dates.
> 
> Showing up for reserve activities is not mandatory, but being in the reserves isn't a right either. They can give you the boot if you are not showing up enough (without a valid excuse).
> 
> And yes, your reserve unit can tell you when and where to show up. "Congradualtions Pte. Bloggins, unless you have a valid excuse you have just volunteered to...". Either you take it or risk having a big black mark under your name.



I agree with that. And I support it too. I was just curious to see how far they can tell you what your doing with your time.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

Its simple.

What if you have to work? Well your unit (mine does) this wonderful thing called passage of information, and youre told when youre working far enough in advance, that you can make necessary adjustments like getting shift changes, writing your essays and papers early, and getting things done ahead of time.

Exams and term papers are not an excuse.Your professors and teachers dont surprise you and tell you theres one due tomorrow on 2 different books, youll have plenty of time.Much more than you spend in the reserves working.Take the time and initiative and get it done early so you can honor your comittment to your oath.

The same with work... we have calendars that say what weekends and events are being held etc all the way through the training year.The odds of someone not being able to work around months and months of advance warning is unlikely.

A few missed dates here and there is acceptable.Not showing up simply because you dont feel like it or don't want to really gets you in the wrong books.

most of the reasons people miss dates at our unit is because of poor planning and preparation.I went to university for a year and managed to stay on top of everything.It was alot of work.If you don't like it, quit, and stop wasting our time.Now I have two part time jobs including the reserves.Many many other troops do as well.

"Imagine! an army that can tell its soldiers what to do where to go and when!"

95% of the time, whatever somebodys excuse is for not showing up for a weekend/thursday, I guarantee there was a way to rectify it, and the biggest obstacle is lack of initiative and proper motivation.

A valid excuse = I was in a car accident on the way to work, and got my legs mangled.
An invalid excuse = I had homework.


----------



## Dane

Whoever posted on the first page that being in the PRes and Cadets at the same time is a violation of the QR&Os is wrong. There are Cadets all over the country that are in the PRes, and they are NOT in violation of the code. If you could post it with proper reference I'd be glad to debate it. 

The only thing as a cadet you are restricted from doing is serving a SCdt contract, and that is a very new rule (so that you cannot have two simaltaneous CF contracts).


----------



## GO!!!

The QR+O states that you may not hold two ranks - I will find it for you today.


----------



## yoman

GO!!! said:
			
		

> The QR+O states that you may not hold two ranks - I will find it for you today.



Does this mean you are considering cadet ranks CF ranks? Which is of course incorrect. 



			
				jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> Its simple.
> 
> What if you have to work? Well your unit (mine does) this wonderful thing called passage of information, and youre told when youre working far enough in advance, that you can make necessary adjustments like getting shift changes, writing your essays and papers early, and getting things done ahead of time.
> 
> Exams and term papers are not an excuse.Your professors and teachers dont surprise you and tell you theres one due tomorrow on 2 different books, youll have plenty of time.Much more than you spend in the reserves working.Take the time and initiative and get it done early so you can honor your comittment to your oath.
> 
> The same with work... we have calendars that say what weekends and events are being held etc all the way through the training year.The odds of someone not being able to work around months and months of advance warning is unlikely.
> 
> A few missed dates here and there is acceptable.Not showing up simply because you dont feel like it or don't want to really gets you in the wrong books.
> 
> most of the reasons people miss dates at our unit is because of poor planning and preparation.I went to university for a year and managed to stay on top of everything.It was alot of work.If you don't like it, quit, and stop wasting our time.Now I have two part time jobs including the reserves.Many many other troops do as well.
> 
> "Imagine! an army that can tell its soldiers what to do where to go and when!"
> 
> 95% of the time, whatever somebodys excuse is for not showing up for a weekend/thursday, I guarantee there was a way to rectify it, and the biggest obstacle is lack of initiative and proper motivation.
> 
> A valid excuse = I was in a car accident on the way to work, and got my legs mangled.
> An invalid excuse = I had homework.



Ok I see. I was just trying to imagine all the possibilities. From what I see, people who don`t show up is because they are poor planners or not committed.


----------



## Dane

GO!!! said:
			
		

> The QR+O states that you may not hold two ranks - I will find it for you today.



Cadets don't hold ranks, they're appointed to them. That's also the reason why you can't be an Scdt and a PRes at the same time, because then you would violate that QR&O in a fringe sense.


----------



## Drummie

Dear GO!!!,

Here is what I wrote:
Every summer at Cadet Summer Training Centre's across the country, Res F/Reg F NCMs and occasionally officers are signed on as instructors/advisors for the duration of the camp. All the way from Pte's to CWO's. 

And here's what you wrote.



> Fighting 47th, you are wrong. The reg F NCMs that are at local Cadet trg centers are from reg force units. They are tasked to a Cadet corps, usually for the summer, before returning to their units. They are not cadets, and while they are there, they are expected to pay compliments to CIC officers, but generally are not under their command, as they have no military management trg.



Other then mentioning they are not cadets, (which I didn't imply anywhere) and stating that the NCM's are required to pay compliments (whiich is implicitly mentioned later on in my same post). I fail to see where, how, or what I'm am wrong on? Are we typing in the same language? Let me break down my small statement for your complete understanding:
1."Res F/Reg F NCMs and occasionally officers are signed on as instructors/advisors for the duration of the camp." =  "The reg F NCMs that are at local Cadet trg centers are from reg force units. They are tasked to a Cadet corps, usually for the summer, before returning to their units."
2. "Res F/Reg F NCMs... All the way from Pte's to CWO's." I realize they're not cadets.. the 'Res F/Reg F NCM' part was key to proper comprension = 'They are not cadets,'



> As for saying the Cadets are not a bunch of pansies because some of them go on to RMC? lets just remember that Kingston is not usually synonomous with hardcore either, and that officer Cadets in Kingston have less military training than most of the troops they will one day try to lead. IMHO, officers that are DEO are usually more well rounded and capable of thinking outside the box than their RMC bretheren, as they are not so completely insitutionalised.


Again, comprehension issues...If you'll re-read my post, it said nothing about cadets not being 'flowers' BECAUSE some go to RMC. I was simply trying to convey the argument that in general, members of the CCM are not useless, wasted tax dollars, and many go on to become the future of the CF.
As for RMC OCdts have little military training, you hit the nail right on the head Capt. Obvious! It's a wee bit of a challenge getting on a tour/operation while trying to earn a degree... Not that we wouldn't be up for the challenge.


----------



## GO!!!

The Fighting 47th said:
			
		

> Dear GO!!!,
> 
> Here is what I wrote:
> Every summer at Cadet Summer Training Centre's across the country, Res F/Reg F NCMs and occasionally officers are signed on as instructors/advisors for the duration of the camp. All the way from Pte's to CWO's.


 
Could you elaborate on where they sign, or where you have ever been "signed on" in the CF? They are tasked, not attached, or posted to and there is a big difference. "signing on" is an ambiguous term with no definitive military connotations other than those associated with the initial "signing up", or enlisting one performs when joining the CF. So you did imply that they were somehow part of the cadet organisation.

Cadets are useful because they gain exposure to the CF for a larger group of Canadians, at ayounger age than would otherwise be possible.



> As for RMC OCdts have little military training, you hit the nail right on the head Capt. Obvious! It's a wee bit of a challenge getting on a tour/operation while trying to earn a degree... Not that we wouldn't be up for the challenge.



No one said anything about a deployment, I specifically said training. And I agree, it is a "wee bit of a challenge" to earn a degree while being deployed, and training to do so. Nevertheless, many Corporals in Reg F Infantry units manage to do it. But I would'nt expect you to.

Oh, and I'm not a Captain, and the "obvious" apparently is'nt - not to you anyway. Keep up the good work sir. ^-^


----------



## Drummie

By signed on, I meant from the CCM's point of view. The CO of the camp in conjunction with the Regional Cadet HQ create a staff slate every year for positions that need to be filled, and while they may be 'tasked' from their unit to work at a particular CSTC, they are more or less 'signed on' to fill a postion by the camp. 

No, you didn't say thing about deployment, but by having 'less military training',  I can't see what else you would mean? All RMC students go through all their phase training before they're commissioned. We dont jsut op to take a summer off here and there, meaning we're fully trained and qualifed to do our job upon posting to a unit. That's our 'domestic' experience...The other experience would have to be abroad, in theatre, which we are unable to partake in. Threrefore, while you may have not said "deployment" specifically, there aren't many other options.

Cheers


----------



## GO!!!

The Fighting 47th said:
			
		

> No, you didn't say thing about deployment, but by having 'less military training',   I can't see what else you would mean? All RMC students go through all their phase training before they're commissioned. We dont jsut op to take a summer off here and there, meaning we're fully trained and qualifed to do our job upon posting to a unit. That's our 'domestic' experience...The other experience would have to be abroad, in theatre, which we are unable to partake in. Threrefore, while you may have not said "deployment" specifically, there aren't many other options.
> 
> Cheers



You are'nt even in Kingston yet, are you? 

Are you "more or less signed in" to a CFRC?

Military training refers to the skills you require to perform your assigned duties, or the maintenance or further development of those skills. For the most part, it happens in Canada, unless certain courses/skills require a different venue (ie.jungle). While you are occasionally expected to "train" while in theatre (new weapon, vehicle etc.) you are trained before being deployed. 

In your case, you may be the course officer for a basic para, or some other short course if no other Lts are available, or you may come to a unit for some OJT, (where you may or may not be allowed to carry a weapon). At some point you will do your phase trg (I - IV), complete your degree and come to a Batallion (if you are an infantry officer). So not everyone we get is fully trained when they come to us the first time.

So you see there are a plethora of other options other than a "deployment", in terms of your military "experience" as I have outlined above. Also, all of this assumes that you pass, academically during the winter and on your Phase courses during the summer. 

I'm sure one of the "better men of the army" can fill you in more completely though. I'm just a Cpl.


----------



## Lost_52

I've heard somewhere that reg F and Res F need not pay compliments to CIC officers? Any truth to this? as i know they hold a commision but its what ive been told by several people.


----------



## 1feral1

Lost_52 said:
			
		

> I've heard somewhere that reg F and Res F need not pay compliments to CIC officers? Any truth to this? as i know they hold a commision but its what ive been told by several people.



1. I've heard somewhere

2. ...what ive been told my several people

Who would tell your BS like that. Don't believe everything you hear, it just fans rumours, and rumours are crap, and bad for the most for everything.

Commissions are simply that, and should be respected for what they are and represent, not necessarily for the (at times) idiots who have them. Regardless, I would have no difficulty salting any CIC officers, if not, just out of courtesy alone, so for even the idiots or not, be professional.

Hope you get the rumour mongers sorted.

Wes


----------



## George Wallace

Piper said:
			
		

> WRONG.
> 
> They hold the Queen's commission...therefore they are to be saluted,



Now.....if only they would have the common courtesy to return the salute when it is given.  Nothing worse than a young soldier recognizing the commission and saluting, only to have a poor example of a CIC officer not acknowledge the compliment.  The few cases in which this happens discraces the whole lot.

CIC officers should pay close attention to the above.


----------



## mysteriousmind

Someone who is in a cadet unit...is allowed to joined the reserved and continue as a cadet. remember people that cadet ranks are worth nothing in Pres or Reg. 

The thing is I dont see alot of this happening...usally the cadet will leave his unit. but it is legal to do it.

the problem is in cadet, all cadet wheter they are 12 or 18 are treated the same way and considered as "minor" with a cadet joining the Pres, were there even if he is 17 or 18 it is not the same game. 

At the end he leaves because it is hard to keep that in mind.


----------



## Neill McKay

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now.....if only they would have the common courtesy to return the salute when it is given.  Nothing worse than a young soldier recognizing the commission and saluting, only to have a poor example of a CIC officer not acknowledge the compliment.  The few cases in which this happens discraces the whole lot.
> 
> CIC officers should pay close attention to the above.



The example, of course, is equally poor when an officer from anywhere else in the Forces similarly fails to return a salute.  Almost as bad is a proper salute that's returned, but with indifference or sloppiness.  So, in fact, all officers should pay attention to the above.


----------



## mysteriousmind

As a CIC working within a armory with my cadet corps, 

I rarely get saluted by Reserve member. The only one who does it are the old sergent or Higher...

But the private, CPL seems alwways to ignore us.

It is normal to reply to the salute... it is basic training that we teach to our cadet. I dont see why A CIC would not reply to a salute.


----------



## dapaterson

Piper said:
			
		

> If you don't salute any other officer, you'll know it.



Piper:

My preferred technique is to see the CSM/RSM, and observe that CADPAT works really well - soldiers can't even see the rank.  That helps communicate the message.


----------



## Neill McKay

Piper said:
			
		

> If you don't salute any other officer, you'll know it. But if you do not salute a CIC officer, they'll usually just keep on going and not say anything.....



That's a good point to bring up.  One of the unfortunate realities of serving as a CIC officer is the distance from the rest of the Forces many cadet units deal with.  For every unit parading on a base or station, there are many more parading in schools and community halls.  CIC officers who haven't had much exposure to the larger CF community are likely to hesitate to comment on an NCM who doesn't salute, perhaps thinking that's the normal way of the world -- another of the countless ways in which what's really done differs from The Book.  There's definitely room for some education on that issue.


----------



## Teflon

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> The example, of course, is equally poor when an officer from anywhere else in the Forces similarly fails to return a salute.  Almost as bad is a proper salute that's returned, but with indifference or sloppiness.  So, in fact, all officers should pay attention to the above.



Neill McKay, just a quick question,...

How does one return a proper salute with indifference or sloppiness? I wasn't aware of any proper indifferent salutes or proper sloppy ones


----------



## Neill McKay

Teflon said:
			
		

> Neill McKay, just a quick question,...
> 
> How does one return a proper salute with indifference or sloppiness? I wasn't aware of any proper indifferent salutes or proper sloppy ones



The junior salutes properly, perhaps even with a cheery "Good morning, sir!" and the senior returns it in a sloppy way, say by not keeping his hand up for anything close to a 2-3 count, or what have you, and replies to the greeting with a grunt (if at all).


----------



## mysteriousmind

As a commissioned officer, It think it is important to respond with a proper and cheerful way toward someone who salutes you. It works on both ethic and the moral of the troops.


----------



## ryanmann356

i'm planning on going into the reserves after i graduate, then comming back and volunteering with cadets.  Add a real soldier perspective to the cadet training and give back to the program that has given me so much


----------



## Neill McKay

Piper said:
			
		

> Mmhmm. Thats the problem. So, the problem prepetuates itself when one member does not salute, gets away with it, does it again, tells his buddies etc etc.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, CIC officers hold a commisson and MUST be saluted like you would salute a new 2Lt on his first day at the unit or the CDS walking down Rideau Street in Ottawa on his lunch break.



Exactly.


----------



## GO!!!

So, now that we have ascertained that CIC officers are worthy of a salute, what is my recourse when said CIC officer does not return my salute, salutes with his left hand or just nods in my general direction while eating a popsicle? 

(yes, all of these happened one summer when I was at Connaught Ranges for CFSAC)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:
			
		

> 1. I've heard somewhere
> 2. ...what ive been told my several people
> Who would tell your BS like that. Don't believe everything you hear, it just fans rumours, and rumours are crap, and bad for the most for everything.  Commissions are simply that, and should be respected for what they are and represent, not necessarily for the (at times) idiots who have them. Regardless, I would have no difficulty salting any CIC officers, if not, just out of courtesy alone, so for even the idiots or not, be professional.  Hope you get the rumour mongers sorted.



Hey, I've had a Reg Force Sergeant tell me I was "only a *Reserve* Warrant Officer" on course in the 1980's, so even though we work at it, it seems the rumour mongers are still out there...

As per concurrent Cadet/Reserve duties, not only did I do both (Inf PRes, Air Cadet) for a couple of years, but I had others with me as well doing the same thing.  At one point, I was taking a Sr. ldrs course and teaching a Jr. Ldrs course with the PRes, while at the same time teaching a leadership course in Cadets, with my 2 i/c there taking the PRes jr. ldrs course (he's since become a VERY good RegF cbt arms officer - CO of a unit, in fact).

I guess it all depends on the individual, and the units involved....


----------



## Neill McKay

GO!!! said:
			
		

> So, now that we have ascertained that CIC officers are worthy of a salute, what is my recourse when said CIC officer does not return my salute, salutes with his left hand or just nods in my general direction while eating a popsicle?
> 
> (yes, all of these happened one summer when I was at Connaught Ranges for CFSAC)



I would suggest that if you're of a reasonably senior rank, and the offending officer of a reasonably junior one, you might politely invite his attention to the requirement to return salutes; only the most ignorant of junior officers will not welcome professional advice from a seasoned NCM.  But if you have to ask the question, your chain of command is probably the best place to go.  And if that should ever happen I would hope that they pursue it and the officer gets a tap on the shoulder from his boss and a quiet conversation on the quarterdeck about the need to return compliments.  If your chain of command, or his, are willing to blow it off then they're part of the problem.


----------



## Teflon

GO!!! said:
			
		

> So, now that we have ascertained that CIC officers are worthy of a salute, what is my recourse when said CIC officer does not return my salute, salutes with his left hand or just nods in my general direction while eating a popsicle?
> 
> (yes, all of these happened one summer when I was at Connaught Ranges for CFSAC)



Lets just remember that it's not the man/woman you are required to salute it's the commission, so it doesn't matter if one considers a CIC officer worthy or not, his/her commission is.


----------



## ryanmann356

apparently you cannot be a staff cadet at a CSTC if you are a member of the PRes, Dont know why though, any thoughts?

Thanks


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

I had a staff cadet who was a reservist when I was in CL. Apparently he had done all his initial training so he was allowed to staff at Blackdown for the summer.


----------



## Neill McKay

Piper said:
			
		

> Because you should be fullfilling your military commitments?...once you join, playtime is over.



Probably not.  That doesn't sounds like the basis of a military policy to me.  Concurrent service in cadets and the reserves is subject to the approval of both COs involved, and that's where a cadet/reservist who wasn't doing his bit for the reserves would be picked up. 

It wasn't too many years ago that staff cadets were enrolled in the reserve force for the duration of their contracts.  My suspicion is the policy against reservists working as staff cadets is a carry-over from then -- you can't be in the reserves in two different units at the same time, obviously.


----------



## aesop081

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> you can't be in the reserves in two different units at the same time, obviously.



Did i miss something.......?

A cadet....even a staff one.....is not a reservist !!


----------



## condor888000

I believe what was meant is that staff cadets were at one time enrolled in the reserves for the duration of the summer. First I've heard of this as well....


----------



## yoman

From what I understand its because you can't have two service numbers. You have a service number as a staff cadet (they use it for the pay system).


----------



## Neill McKay

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Did i miss something.......?



Yes.  What I said was:

"It wasn't too many years ago that staff cadets *were* enrolled in the reserve force for the duration of their contracts.  *My suspicion is the policy against reservists working as staff cadets is a carry-over from then* -- you can't be in the reserves in two different units at the same time, obviously."


----------



## buzzcutx

Your cadet time carries over and benefits 6 months towards your pension, providing you don't get charged while serving in the Reg Force, just ask me b/c I did both...
I was debating on getting into CIC while still serving Reg force full time and they wouldn't even consider it... at best all I could do was show up in my cadpat and offer up what I could.  I did that for just over 3 years in Belleville... lots of fun times.


----------



## dapaterson

CIC is both an occupation and a sub-component of the Reserve Force.  As you can't be simultaneously in more than one of the three CF components, (nor simutaneously in more than one Reserve sub-component), you can't be both CIC and Reg Force, or CIC and Primary Reserve.


----------



## [RAMMSTEIN]

it can be both, but Pres has priority.


----------



## mysteriousmind

Homer you are wrong...

you cannot be CIC and Pres.

two different trade.

you can give time to a cadet unit...but you cannot be a CIC and say a log officer.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Homer_Simpson said:
			
		

> it can be both, but Pres has priority.





			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> CIC is both an occupation and a sub-component of the Reserve Force.  As you can't be simultaneously in more than one of the three CF components, (nor simutaneously in more than one Reserve sub-component), you can't be both CIC and Reg Force, or CIC and Primary Reserve.



Homer you are wrong read what dapaterson wrote.

*YOU CAN VOLUNTEER WITH SAID CADET UNIT WHILE YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE PRIMARY RESERVES.* As long as the Cadet Units parade night does not interfere with your Reserve Units Parade night.


----------



## [RAMMSTEIN]

I'm not a CIC I'm just a cadet,my CO said I can join,but Pres has priority.

PS: I wish I was qualified to be a CIC.


----------



## mysteriousmind

homer I looked at your profile...and I understand...

you meant being a cadet and in reserve....

yes you can do it...but from pas expereince have seen that it did not work often.


----------



## [RAMMSTEIN]

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> homer I looked at your profile...and I understand...
> 
> you meant being a cadet and in reserve....
> 
> yes you can do it...but from pas expereince have seen that it did not work often.



it probaly won't work, especially if i'm doing weekend BMQ.


----------



## geo

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> homer I looked at your profile...and I understand...
> 
> you meant being a cadet and in reserve....
> 
> yes you can do it...but from pas expereince have seen that it did not work often.



MM

You are wrong in telling someone that he can be officialy in both organisations at the same time.

As a reservist (or reg) you can volunteer your time to the cadets but you cannot belong to both establishments at the same time.

Once you have some time in the reserves, your unit CO may permit you to provide instruction to the cadets (scheduled paid work) in the scope of his supporting an affiliated cadet corp BUT,  you are not authorized to "parade" / train as a cadet and as a reservist.


----------



## condor888000

[quote author=CATO 1307]
STATUS - CADET / MEMBER OF THE
PRIMARY RESERVE

PURPOSE

1. The purpose of this order is to clarify the
status of cadet versus reservist. It supersedes
Canadian Forces Cadet Policies and Procedures,
Article 355, dated 01 August 1988.

GENERAL

2. The provisions for eligibility for
membership in a cadet unit are outlined in
Chapter 4 of the Queen’s Regulations and Orders
(Cadets) (QR(Cadets)). The provisions for
enrolment in the Primary Reserve are outlined in
CFAO 49-10 and 49-11. Membership in a cadet
unit does not legally bar enrolment in the
Primary Reserve.

3. Membership in Cadets or the Primary
Reserve should be re-evaluated, however, if the
cadet/reservist is unable to deal with the
increased responsibility. The cadet unit CO shall
determine whether continued involvement as a
cadet is appropriate.

4. A person may not be a cadet and a member
of the CIC concurrently.

CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE

5. A reservist is subject to the Code of
Service Discipline under sub-section
55(1)(c)(viii) of the National Defence Act when
“in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the
Canadian Forces or in any defence establishment
or work for the Defence”. Hence, a cadet who is
also a reservist could be charged with a service
offence and could be required to appear before a
service tribunal.

OPI: D Cdts 5
Date: May 98
Amendment: Original
[/quote]

Possible, yes. Smart, I don't think so.


----------



## geo

Think there is a bit of a disconnect with the Reserves & Regs.

I note that the CATO stipulates that the cadet CO will determine the individual's availability to the cadet corp (second) 

Am positive that there is something in the CFAO/LFCO/DOADs that says something about this.... and it ain't anything positive........... BBL


----------



## condor888000

geo said:
			
		

> Think there is a bit of a disconnect with the Reserves & Regs.


But is this not a discussion about the possibility of being a reservist and cadet at the same time? I didn't see anyone claiming it was possible to be a cadet and a reg, just a cadet and a res.


			
				geo said:
			
		

> I note that the CATO stipulates that the cadet CO will determine the individual's availability to the cadet corp (second)


That it does, seems like a smart idea as the cadet CO is likely to be able to have a quick grasp of whether or not the cadet will in fact be able to succeed.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> Am positive that there is something in the CFAO/LFCO/DOADs that says something about this.... and it ain't anything positive........... BBL


Good luck, hopefully you find something that sheds a bit more light.


----------



## C/Sgt. King

Is is possible to still complete a advanced training course as a cadet while being part of a reserve unit?
If a cadet wanted to do para, after recently becoming an member of the reserves as a school co-op program, are they still eligible for an advanced course?


----------



## Neill McKay

King88 said:
			
		

> Is is possible to still complete a advanced training course as a cadet while being part of a reserve unit?
> If a cadet wanted to do para, after recently becoming an member of the reserves as a school co-op program, are they still eligible for an advanced course?



I can't imagine why not.  A cadet can be a reservist at the same time, and there's nothing to restrict the training opportunities of a cadet as a result of his also being a reservist.

The only barrier I could see is if the cadet were taking a cadet course at the expense of taking a reserve course; the reserve unit might be concerned about how well he was using his time.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I can't imagine why not.  A cadet can be a reservist at the same time, and there's nothing to restrict the training opportunities of a cadet as a result of his also being a reservist.
> 
> The only barrier I could see is if the cadet were taking a cadet course at the expense of taking a reserve course; the reserve unit might be concerned about how well he was using his time.



My Trg-O said that if I were to join the Reserves, I could not continue to parade with the cadet corps (ours is really short on senior members, and people don't take Cadets seriously enough and it's getting on my nerves; this is most of the reason why I want to go into PRes). He simply said "If you want to wear one uniform, you have to trade in the other. Not only that, but we can't take you on as a volunteer instructor until MCpl, maybe Cpl but I think that's pushing it."

Is it possible, that there is some regulation that states that I cannot continue to be Cadet and be enlisted in the Reserves? Or is my Trg-O just "making things up?" The only thng keeping me in Cadets is NSCE and possible placement on International Exchange and the fact that there is two of us Cadet Sergeants (me and one other) and a C/Warrant Officer at the top (C/WO being the SSM/Acting RSM; I am a TrpSGT along with the other Sgt.; we have one active MCpl and one AWOL MCpl.)

Basically we have 5 senior cadets (MCpl and +) out of 22. Everyone else is Corporal and under.

I don't want to leave to join the Reserves at this point because I am attending Phase II of NSCE in March and my CO wouldn't be too happy if I did. We had an incident back in 2006, a C/Warrant Officer was sent to Scotland on exchange and came back and quit, my CO was devastated and outraged.

If someone can clarify the regulation of being Cadet and Reservist at same time, that would be great, thank you.

*EDIT: Looking in CATOs, CFAO's and the QR (Cadets).*

Found the CATO station Cadet and Reservist membership, but did was not able to access the CFAOs and I could not find anything pertaining to Reserve and Cadet participation under Chapter 4 of the QR (Cadets).

So I guess what my Trg-O was doing was using his authority to recommend me to choose one or the other because he feels that I cannot handle the increased responsibility?


----------



## chris_log

I believe you need to have the approval of both your cadet CO and unit CO. If one says no, then you can't do it. 

Speaking from experience, do what I should have done and join the 'Mo as soon as you can as opposed to staying in cadets. You'll get paid for spending your weeknights and weekends working and the experience you gain there will be more beneficial then what you'll get from cadets (if you're intending on being with the CF for any length of time). 

Don't make the mistake I did, get into the 'Mo as soon as you can.


----------



## frazzledazzle

It depends on what you want to do. I stayed in cadets an extra year to get my basic parachutist wings. When I took it this year, you were not allowed to be on the course if you were a reservist. The reason being that reservist are not allowed to participate in a CF course unpaid. As it stands now, the cadet program is trying to work out a deal with the CF to try and allow cadets/reservist to take the parachutist course. But this is still being worked out and might fall through. 

My look on it was that one year less of being in the reserves was worth getting my wings, since I've heard that it can be very difficult to get loaded on once your in the CF.


----------



## Neill McKay

Big Beef said:
			
		

> My Trg-O said that if I were to join the Reserves, I could not continue to parade with the cadet corps (ours is really short on senior members, and people don't take Cadets seriously enough and it's getting on my nerves; this is most of the reason why I want to go into PRes). He simply said "If you want to wear one uniform, you have to trade in the other. Not only that, but we can't take you on as a volunteer instructor until MCpl, maybe Cpl but I think that's pushing it."
> 
> Is it possible, that there is some regulation that states that I cannot continue to be Cadet and be enlisted in the Reserves? Or is my Trg-O just "making things up?"



As you've discovered, your Trg O is wrong.  It may be helpful for you to give him or her a copy of the CATO -- with all of the diplomacy you can muster.  There's a widely-held belief that you can't be a cadet and a reservist at the same time, and I would guess that your Trg O is making that common mistake.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

N. McKay said:
			
		

> As you've discovered, your Trg O is wrong.  It may be helpful for you to give him or her a copy of the CATO -- with all of the diplomacy you can muster.  There's a widely-held belief that you can't be a cadet and a reservist at the same time, and I would guess that your Trg O is making that common mistake.



Ok, thanks for that. My Trg-O had been a cadet and been in PRes for 5 years or something like that and claims that he "knows the system." My Father on the other hand was 14 years in the Regular Force and he said that numerous time when volunteering to help instruct the Lord Strathcona's cadets that there were two or three cadets who were also Reservists. My Dad had said that I should do both until that way the corps doesn't fall apart from lack of senior ranks and I can get paid and trained in the 'Real Mans Army'.

When my Trg-O had told me I couldn't do both... well... I was shocked.

The only reason I'm staying in is because I need NSCE to be eligible to receive the Incentive Pay in the Reserves. Or do I only need 3 years? That info wasn't very clear to me either.


----------



## frazzledazzle

The recruiter told me that to get the incentive you need three years in plus a 6 week leadership course including CL and CLI. Not sure what else you need though, he just told me to bring in my cadet credentials and told me that I'd qualified for it once he saw them. I do have NSCE, so I'm not sure if you need it.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

frazzledazzle said:
			
		

> The recruiter told me that to get the incentive you need three years in plus a 6 week leadership course including CL and CLI. Not sure what else you need though, he just told me to bring in my cadet credentials and told me that I'd qualified for it once he saw them. I do have NSCE, so I'm not sure if you need it.



Well, I guess I'm in the clear then. I've got 3.5 years and two 6 weeks courses (CL + CLI Drill and Ceremony). I'm going to have a nice chat with my CO, and re-open my application with the Recruiting Office.

*EDIT:* Actually, I'll wait until I'm done NSCE (Phase II on first weekend of March) incase I get International exchange. Otherwise, I'm moving on to bigger better things.

Thank you everyone for your guidance.


----------



## frazzledazzle

When he first told me about it, he told me that he was pretty sure it was only a 6 week leadership course and 3 years cadet time. But he asked me to bring in my credentials and he'd check to make sure. So I'm not positive whether you need NSCE or not. Might want to check that out.

On a side note, don't give up on some of the other advanced courses ie Leadership and Challenge at Rocky Moutain. I took it two years ago and it was AMAZING (not trying to get off topic or anything).


----------



## R. Jorgensen

frazzledazzle said:
			
		

> When he first told me about it, he told me that he was pretty sure it was only a 6 week leadership course and 3 years cadet time. But he asked me to bring in my credentials and he'd check to make sure. So I'm not positive whether you need NSCE or not. Might want to check that out.
> 
> On a side note, don't give up on some of the other advanced courses ie Leadership and Challenge at Rocky Moutain. I took it two years ago and it was AMAZING (not trying to get off topic or anything).



No, Cadets is making me sick. The lack of motivation, lack of seriousness, the terrible organization and extreme lack of dedication is making me severely ill. I do EVERYTHING above and beyond was is expected and I have never been recognized for it when it counts; sure I've been given awards for top cadet and such but... it's just not as fulfilling. I need something with more of a challenge, with a little more seriousness and skills that actually help me - sure Leadership, Map and Compass and Drill from cadets will help me in PRes, but the rest of it... I doubt it.

-----------------------
Anyway.

So regarding being a Cadet and a Reservist, what is the ruling on uniforms? Cadet Parade night you as a cadet, but what about field exercises (and no, I would not attend a cadet Ex over a Res Ex; that's just stupid)?


----------



## aesop081

If you are old enough to join the Military, you are old enough to leave the kid stuff behind. You have to grow up some day.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If you are old enough to join the Military, you are old enough to leave the kid stuff behind. You have to grow up some day.



Yeah, I guess. Cadets isn't like the military... If I quit and the CO gets pissed about it, it's not going to affect me. You know what Aviator... I'll have a chat with the Recruiting Centre and my father, I'm done as of March.


----------



## DSB

You will need to fire up a memo to your CO, (reserve unit), to get permission to parade with your cadet unit; no is often the answer.


----------



## R. Jorgensen

DSB said:
			
		

> You will need to fire up a memo to your CO, (reserve unit), to get permission to parade with your cadet unit; no is often the answer.



Meh, I wouldn't mind either way. Cadets is a huge pile of ridiculous frustration, but I also don't want to leave them without any Senior Members.

But I wouldn't care if the Res Unit CO denied my permission to parade with the cadet unit.


----------



## frazzledazzle

Yes, I agree, cadets can be very fustrating for many senior cadet NCMs, but sometimes it worth it to stick it out and do both for the betterment of your cadet corps which it seems it why you want to stay. I personally am applying for the reserves and a volunteer at my cadet corps was an ex battery commander of the reserve unit I'm with and he talked to the CO and said that he had no problem with me doing both. But my soon to be reserve unit is also my affiliated unit.


----------



## Pryce

you can be both but no matter what you have t follow orders from your CO because they are reservists to and the do out rank you.


----------



## lethalLemon

c/RFN Pryce said:
			
		

> you can be both but no matter what you have t follow orders from your CO because they are reservists to and the do out rank you.



Except as of... I think it was 2008... Cadets can no longer be a member of Cadets and a Reservist in the CF. They must be one or the other.


----------



## Prototype

... as a member of the Reg Force, isn't volunteering your time with Cadets worth PER points? Am I right? My brother works some brutal shifts and still makes it out on Thursday nights to help out the cadets (mind you, he never was a cadet).


----------



## sapperboysen

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Except as of... I think it was 2008... Cadets can no longer be a member of Cadets and a Reservist in the CF. They must be one or the other.



That regulation came in January 2010. It isn't a cadet regulation, it's a CF one.


----------



## lethalLemon

Boysen said:
			
		

> That regulation came in January 2010. It isn't a cadet regulation, it's a CF one.



It doesn't matter if it's a CF policy or a Cadet policy... it's still not allowed.


----------



## Franko

Prototype said:
			
		

> ... as a member of the Reg Force, isn't volunteering your time with Cadets worth PER points? Am I right? My brother works some brutal shifts and still makes it out on Thursday nights to help out the cadets (mind you, he never was a cadet).



You get an extra .5 if memory serves me correctly.

Regards


----------



## 211RadOp

Prototype said:
			
		

> ... as a member of the Reg Force, isn't volunteering your time with Cadets worth PER points? Am I right? My brother works some brutal shifts and still makes it out on Thursday nights to help out the cadets (mind you, he never was a cadet).


  Only if it gets mentioned on your PER.


----------



## Dooley

DOAD 5002-1, ENROLMENT 
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-1-eng.asp

"
Membership in Cadet Organizations
On the day of enrolment, an applicant may not be a cadet in a cadet organization authorized under section 46 of the National Defence Act.
"


----------



## greythunders99

A people can say, if we can finish the cadets year start before the official enrolement ? Because as a staff cadets, its not fun( and its organization after...) for cadets, staff cadets and officiers if we going out cadet because of that during the year ... 

Its for that, I would like have the good information( writtens laws...)... If a people find, and can contact me by PM, that can be very appreciate. (In french if its possible, if not I can translate...).

Thanks,

GT


----------



## Blackadder1916

greythunders99 said:
			
		

> . . . . . I would like have the good information( writtens laws...)...   (In french if its possible, if not I can translate...).



If you had looked at the post immediately preceding yours, you would have seen the "written laws".



			
				Lrrr said:
			
		

> DOAD 5002-1, ENROLMENT
> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-1-eng.asp
> 
> "
> Membership in Cadet Organizations
> On the day of enrolment, an applicant may not be a cadet in a cadet organization authorized under section 46 of the National Defence Act.
> "



Ou si vous le préférez en français.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5002-1-fra.asp


> DOAD 5002-1, Enrôlement
> 
> . . . . .
> 
> Membre d’une organisation de cadets
> 
> À compter du jour de son enrôlement, un candidat ne peut plus faire partie d’une organisation de cadets autorisée par l’article 46 de la Loi sur la défense nationale.


----------



## StitchJones

Hey guys, im in the army cadets and as many know summer camp is coming up. I am also half way through the process of applying to the reserves. If I get a swearing in date that is right before cadet summer camp do I quit cadets after the swearing in or can I still go to camp and have that as my last cadet day? Normally you have to quit cadets the day you swear in to the forces but just wondering if the rules are different for summer camp. Or if you get a swearing in date right in the middle of summer camp what happens then?


----------



## ModlrMike

You can not be a member of the Cadets and the CF at the same time. You may be able to negotiate your swearing in date, but that will depend on a number of factors. Some in your control, some out of your control. Ensure your unit's recruiter is aware of your situation and precisely how you want to proceed. You have a little wiggle room in that it's nearly time where Reserve units break for the summer.


----------



## brihard

If you're joining the military, it's time to leave cadets behind you and move into the big boy world.


----------



## mariomike

StitchJones said:
			
		

> If I get a swearing in date that is right before cadet summer camp do I quit cadets after the swearing in or can I still go to camp and have that as my last cadet day?



See also,

Cadets Joining the Reserves - Can it be Both?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/24238.175.html
8 pages.

A cadet and reservist  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/4372.0
2 pages.


----------



## StitchJones

Thanks guys, I will take your advice! Haha trust me im ready to leave it behind, I just want to go to at least 1 summer camp. But thank you very much for your help!


----------



## 63 Delta

If going to summer camp wont affect your swearing in for the Reserves I would still go. I had some amazing times when I was at summer camp and learned some great life skills. 

While I'm sure you are ready to join up, you are obviously younger than 19 and joining the Reserves after the summer is certainly not going to stunt your career. You only have a couple more years to be a cadet; You have the rest of your life to be a soldier.


----------



## brihard

StitchJones said:
			
		

> Thanks guys, I will take your advice! Haha trust me im ready to leave it behind, I just want to go to at least 1 summer camp. But thank you very much for your help!



What has your reserve regiment said about training this summer? Will they be able to load you on your basic courses in the coming months?


----------



## Franko

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> You can not be a member of the Cadets and the CF at the same time. You may be able to negotiate your swearing in date, but that will depend on a number of factors. Some in your control, some out of your control. Ensure your unit's recruiter is aware of your situation and precisely how you want to proceed. You have a little wiggle room in that it's nearly time where Reserve units break for the summer.



Yes you can and its been done numerous times. One is a youth organization and completely voluntary, the other we all know what it is. I've seen it done and did it myself ages ago.

The issue that arises is when member gets their priorities mixed up and puts the youth organization ahead of their military obligations.

You can do both, but must realize that the deconfliction of scheduling and what CoC you answer and when must be clearly stated and understood.

The CF is the priority, cadets second; period. If the member can't wrap their head around that, it's better to just put off getting in the reserves until you hit 19 and you have to quit cadets anyways. 

Regards


----------



## rwgill

Not that I agree or disgree:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5002-1.page



> Membership in Cadet Organizations
> 
> 3.16 On the day of enrolment, an applicant may not be a cadet in a cadet organization authorized under section 46 of the National Defence Act.


----------



## ModlrMike

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> Yes you can and its been done numerous times. One is a youth organization and completely voluntary, the other we all know what it is. I've seen it done and did it myself ages ago.
> 
> The issue that arises is when member gets their priorities mixed up and puts the youth organization ahead of their military obligations.
> 
> You can do both, but must realize that the deconfliction of scheduling and what CoC you answer and when must be clearly stated and understood.
> 
> The CF is the priority, cadets second; period. If the member can't wrap their head around that, it's better to just put off getting in the reserves until you hit 19 and you have to quit cadets anyways.
> 
> Regards



The operative word in my statement was member. You can volunteer to support a Cadet Corps as a reservist all you want, but you can not be a member.

The OPs question specifically referenced being enrolled in Cadets, and being enrolled in the reserve at the same time.


----------



## Franko

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The operative word in my statement was member. You can volunteer to support a Cadet Corps as a reservist all you want, but you can not be a member.
> 
> The OPs question specifically referenced being enrolled in Cadets, and being enrolled in the reserve at the same time.



And I was speaking to that specific point, as being a member of both at the same time. Guess I wasn't being clear enough.

As rwgill pointed out, I guess the rules have changed since the 80s.

Regards


----------

