# Re: The West



## army

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:40:58 -0600*
Well, Alberta at least. I‘m tempted to give you a three page history
lesson, but if you really want to know I suspect you are capable of
doing your own research, or should have done it in grade school.
Suffice to say that the original settlers of Alberta, of any
technological sophistication ie. non-native and number were American
cowboys and ranch owners. From there, like Topsy, "things just grew‘d".
Ian Edwards
>From a town just
outside "Redmonton"
Jay Digital wrote:
> 
> I wonder why the west has a reputation of being right-wing?
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Bounce backs
> 
> > Haven‘t had any trouble since I‘ve not tried to use command words. The
> > "traffic" on this bulletin board tends to ebb and flow as the weeks go
> > by. At least we are not being jammed any more touch wood by foul
> > mouthed teens not that I‘m implying that all/most teens are this way,
> > just that the language of some clearly indicated their age level.
> >
> > However, not ALL of us mourn the death of Trudeau. Some of us,
> > particularly out West, feel that a lot of this is just hype put out by
> > those, such as the Liberals and the CBC, who strongly favour:
> > a a very strong central government at the expense of regional needs
> > b a powerful government at the expense of individual economic and
> > social initiatives
> >
> > I am amazed, but not surprised, at the outpouring of emotion by those
> > who were at best in elementary school when Trudeau left office. Reminds
> > me of the short term hype over the death of Princess Di who dat?.
> > Forgotten in all this brouhaha is that Trudeau wasn‘t very popular when
> > he left office.
> >
> > I may well be alone, but I will continue to vote Tory provided they can
> > field a suitable candidate in my riding. I‘m obviously not about to jump
> > on any bandwagon.
> >
> > Now, perhaps we can have someone comment on the recent speech of Art
> > Egglington annoucing increased spending for the PRes for increased
> > strength levels how will more recruits be attracted?, training and
> > equipment and reorganization of roles of units. What are the practical
> > results going to be? I‘ve just read 4-5 lines in my local paper so far
> > and IIRC the additional funding doesn‘t buy very much.
> >
> > "Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> > >
> > > Has anyone else had problems of late posting messages that contain words
> > > identical to/similar to the "command words" used in operating this list?
> > >
> > > I‘ve had a couple of messages bounced back to me by the list
> administrator
> > > as "unpostable" because of this glitch in recent weeks and this has, I
> must
> > > say, cooled my ardour for participating in the various discussions.
> > >
> > > I notice the volume of posts to the list seems to have dropped recently.
> Is
> > > this perhaps because other people are having similar problems with
> bounce
> > > backs, or because we‘ve all been too busy mourning the death of Trudeau,
> or
> > > just a fluke?
> > >
> > > BTW, I‘m still trying to track down data on Canadian military spending
> since
> > > the end of WWII. Any leads anyone can provide on where this information
> > > might be easily found without having to submit complicated queries to
> DND,
> > > for instance! would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Joan
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >
> > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:51:01 -0600*
I sent out a copy of the LFRR Land Force Reserve Restructure papers just a
while ago.  For whatever its worth, love or hate Trudeau, I think that he
did change the face of politics in Canada.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: The West
> Well, Alberta at least. I‘m tempted to give you a three page history
> lesson, but if you really want to know I suspect you are capable of
> doing your own research, or should have done it in grade school.
>
> Suffice to say that the original settlers of Alberta, of any
> technological sophistication ie. non-native and number were American
> cowboys and ranch owners. From there, like Topsy, "things just grew‘d".
>
> Ian Edwards
> From a town just
> outside "Redmonton"
>
> Jay Digital wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why the west has a reputation of being right-wing?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bounce backs
> >
> > > Haven‘t had any trouble since I‘ve not tried to use command words. The
> > > "traffic" on this bulletin board tends to ebb and flow as the weeks go
> > > by. At least we are not being jammed any more touch wood by foul
> > > mouthed teens not that I‘m implying that all/most teens are this way,
> > > just that the language of some clearly indicated their age level.
> > >
> > > However, not ALL of us mourn the death of Trudeau. Some of us,
> > > particularly out West, feel that a lot of this is just hype put out by
> > > those, such as the Liberals and the CBC, who strongly favour:
> > > a a very strong central government at the expense of regional needs
> > > b a powerful government at the expense of individual economic and
> > > social initiatives
> > >
> > > I am amazed, but not surprised, at the outpouring of emotion by those
> > > who were at best in elementary school when Trudeau left office.
Reminds
> > > me of the short term hype over the death of Princess Di who dat?.
> > > Forgotten in all this brouhaha is that Trudeau wasn‘t very popular
when
> > > he left office.
> > >
> > > I may well be alone, but I will continue to vote Tory provided they
can
> > > field a suitable candidate in my riding. I‘m obviously not about to
jump
> > > on any bandwagon.
> > >
> > > Now, perhaps we can have someone comment on the recent speech of Art
> > > Egglington annoucing increased spending for the PRes for increased
> > > strength levels how will more recruits be attracted?, training and
> > > equipment and reorganization of roles of units. What are the practical
> > > results going to be? I‘ve just read 4-5 lines in my local paper so far
> > > and IIRC the additional funding doesn‘t buy very much.
> > >
> > > "Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone else had problems of late posting messages that contain
words
> > > > identical to/similar to the "command words" used in operating this
list?
> > > >
> > > > I‘ve had a couple of messages bounced back to me by the list
> > administrator
> > > > as "unpostable" because of this glitch in recent weeks and this has,
I
> > must
> > > > say, cooled my ardour for participating in the various discussions.
> > > >
> > > > I notice the volume of posts to the list seems to have dropped
recently.
> > Is
> > > > this perhaps because other people are having similar problems with
> > bounce
> > > > backs, or because we‘ve all been too busy mourning the death of
Trudeau,
> > or
> > > > just a fluke?
> > > >
> > > > BTW, I‘m still trying to track down data on Canadian military
spending
> > since
> > > > the end of WWII. Any leads anyone can provide on where this
information
> > > > might be easily found without having to submit complicated queries
to
> > DND,
> > > > for instance! would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > > >
> > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 06:58:46 -0600*
Yes and Hitler changed the face of Europe, I see no reason to rame mountains
after fools, tools or people who negatively affect my and my childrens life.
"Donald Schepens"  on 10/09/2000 01:51:01 PM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
I sent out a copy of the LFRR Land Force Reserve Restructure papers just a
while ago.  For whatever its worth, love or hate Trudeau, I think that he
did change the face of politics in Canada.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: The West
> Well, Alberta at least. I‘m tempted to give you a three page history
> lesson, but if you really want to know I suspect you are capable of
> doing your own research, or should have done it in grade school.
>
> Suffice to say that the original settlers of Alberta, of any
> technological sophistication ie. non-native and number were American
> cowboys and ranch owners. From there, like Topsy, "things just grew‘d".
>
> Ian Edwards
> From a town just
> outside "Redmonton"
>
> Jay Digital wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why the west has a reputation of being right-wing?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bounce backs
> >
> > > Haven‘t had any trouble since I‘ve not tried to use command words. The
> > > "traffic" on this bulletin board tends to ebb and flow as the weeks go
> > > by. At least we are not being jammed any more touch wood by foul
> > > mouthed teens not that I‘m implying that all/most teens are this way,
> > > just that the language of some clearly indicated their age level.
> > >
> > > However, not ALL of us mourn the death of Trudeau. Some of us,
> > > particularly out West, feel that a lot of this is just hype put out by
> > > those, such as the Liberals and the CBC, who strongly favour:
> > > a a very strong central government at the expense of regional needs
> > > b a powerful government at the expense of individual economic and
> > > social initiatives
> > >
> > > I am amazed, but not surprised, at the outpouring of emotion by those
> > > who were at best in elementary school when Trudeau left office.
Reminds
> > > me of the short term hype over the death of Princess Di who dat?.
> > > Forgotten in all this brouhaha is that Trudeau wasn‘t very popular
when
> > > he left office.
> > >
> > > I may well be alone, but I will continue to vote Tory provided they
can
> > > field a suitable candidate in my riding. I‘m obviously not about to
jump
> > > on any bandwagon.
> > >
> > > Now, perhaps we can have someone comment on the recent speech of Art
> > > Egglington annoucing increased spending for the PRes for increased
> > > strength levels how will more recruits be attracted?, training and
> > > equipment and reorganization of roles of units. What are the practical
> > > results going to be? I‘ve just read 4-5 lines in my local paper so far
> > > and IIRC the additional funding doesn‘t buy very much.
> > >
> > > "Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone else had problems of late posting messages that contain
words
> > > > identical to/similar to the "command words" used in operating this
list?
> > > >
> > > > I‘ve had a couple of messages bounced back to me by the list
> > administrator
> > > > as "unpostable" because of this glitch in recent weeks and this has,
I
> > must
> > > > say, cooled my ardour for participating in the various discussions.
> > > >
> > > > I notice the volume of posts to the list seems to have dropped
recently.
> > Is
> > > > this perhaps because other people are having similar problems with
> > bounce
> > > > backs, or because we‘ve all been too busy mourning the death of
Trudeau,
> > or
> > > > just a fluke?
> > > >
> > > > BTW, I‘m still trying to track down data on Canadian military
spending
> > since
> > > > the end of WWII. Any leads anyone can provide on where this
information
> > > > might be easily found without having to submit complicated queries
to
> > DND,
> > > > for instance! would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > > >
> > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:12:26 -0600*
Look, give it a break.  Lets get off of politics and return to military.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> Yes and Hitler changed the face of Europe, I see no reason to rame
mountains
> after fools, tools or people who negatively affect my and my childrens
life.
>
>
>
>
> "Donald Schepens"  on 10/09/2000 01:51:01 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> I sent out a copy of the LFRR Land Force Reserve Restructure papers just
a
> while ago.  For whatever its worth, love or hate Trudeau, I think that he
> did change the face of politics in Canada.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ian Edwards 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: The West
>
>
> > Well, Alberta at least. I‘m tempted to give you a three page history
> > lesson, but if you really want to know I suspect you are capable of
> > doing your own research, or should have done it in grade school.
> >
> > Suffice to say that the original settlers of Alberta, of any
> > technological sophistication ie. non-native and number were American
> > cowboys and ranch owners. From there, like Topsy, "things just grew‘d".
> >
> > Ian Edwards
> > From a town just
> > outside "Redmonton"
> >
> > Jay Digital wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder why the west has a reputation of being right-wing?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 5:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Bounce backs
> > >
> > > > Haven‘t had any trouble since I‘ve not tried to use command words.
The
> > > > "traffic" on this bulletin board tends to ebb and flow as the weeks
go
> > > > by. At least we are not being jammed any more touch wood by foul
> > > > mouthed teens not that I‘m implying that all/most teens are this
way,
> > > > just that the language of some clearly indicated their age level.
> > > >
> > > > However, not ALL of us mourn the death of Trudeau. Some of us,
> > > > particularly out West, feel that a lot of this is just hype put out
by
> > > > those, such as the Liberals and the CBC, who strongly favour:
> > > > a a very strong central government at the expense of regional
needs
> > > > b a powerful government at the expense of individual economic and
> > > > social initiatives
> > > >
> > > > I am amazed, but not surprised, at the outpouring of emotion by
those
> > > > who were at best in elementary school when Trudeau left office.
> Reminds
> > > > me of the short term hype over the death of Princess Di who dat?.
> > > > Forgotten in all this brouhaha is that Trudeau wasn‘t very popular
> when
> > > > he left office.
> > > >
> > > > I may well be alone, but I will continue to vote Tory provided they
> can
> > > > field a suitable candidate in my riding. I‘m obviously not about to
> jump
> > > > on any bandwagon.
> > > >
> > > > Now, perhaps we can have someone comment on the recent speech of Art
> > > > Egglington annoucing increased spending for the PRes for increased
> > > > strength levels how will more recruits be attracted?, training and
> > > > equipment and reorganization of roles of units. What are the
practical
> > > > results going to be? I‘ve just read 4-5 lines in my local paper so
far
> > > > and IIRC the additional funding doesn‘t buy very much.
> > > >
> > > > "Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Has anyone else had problems of late posting messages that contain
> words
> > > > > identical to/similar to the "command words" used in operating this
> list?
> > > > >
> > > > > I‘ve had a couple of messages bounced back to me by the list
> > > administrator
> > > > > as "unpostable" because of this glitch in recent weeks and this
has,
> I
> > > must
> > > > > say, cooled my ardour for participating in the various
discussions.
> > > > >
> > > > > I notice the volume of posts to the list seems to have dropped
> recently.
> > > Is
> > > > > this perhaps because other people are having similar problems with
> > > bounce
> > > > > backs, or because we‘ve all been too busy mourning the death of
> Trudeau,
> > > or
> > > > > just a fluke?
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, I‘m still trying to track down data on Canadian military
> spending
> > > since
> > > > > the end of WWII. Any leads anyone can provide on where this
> information
> > > > > might be easily found without having to submit complicated
queries
> to
> > > DND,
> > > > > for instance! would be appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Joan
> > > > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
> > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > > > >
> > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile
at
> > > > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:25:08 -0700*
You pay more taxes than you feel you should.  You resent official
bilingualism, you feel your children will have to pay for the social
benefits you enjoy.  That makes him Hitler in your book?
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## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:27:34 -0700*
How do we separate the Military from politics in this country.
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## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:44:41 -0600*
I wondered how long it would be before someone tried to make that link.
I hardly see any link between the character of Hitler and Trudeau.  I however
see a strong link between the two of them as poor leaders  For Trudeau failed
bilingualism strategy, failed attempt to address separatist issues, failed
fiscal responsibility huge debt for many generations, failed regional issues
management, complete disregard and disrespect for those who did not agree with
his social experiments and above all invoking the war measures act and allowing
a police state to be instigated in Canada.  Comments that he made a mark on
Canadian Society and  should be rewarded I completely disagree with.  By that
definition, any "leader" who makes an impact should get mountains named after
them,   Hence Hilter Mountain in Germany why not??
Failed leadership should not be rewarded.   A mark on society should not
automatically be candidate for reward.  Maybe we in the forces should pay a
little more attention to that statement.
That should get some anry responses........
"dave"  on 10/10/2000 08:25:08 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
You pay more taxes than you feel you should.  You resent official
bilingualism, you feel your children will have to pay for the social
benefits you enjoy.  That makes him Hitler in your book?
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:45:55 -0600*
Very good question.  Since our highest morale authority is the Queen here in
Canada, how about having her take a more active part in Armed Forces?
"dave"  on 10/10/2000 08:27:34 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
How do we separate the Military from politics in this country.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:52:06 -0600*
Short answer:
you don‘t
> How do we separate the Military from politics in this country.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:05:48 -0600*
Wow, can not disagree more.  That is how dictators emerge, you have to have the
military separate from the Govt like we do in Canada if not what is to stop
the Govt from using the military against the citizens.  That is why we have the
highest morale authority as the Queen and we swear oath to her god bless her
and not a short sighted politician.
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 08:52:06 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
     Short answer:
     you don‘t
> How do we separate the Military from politics in this country.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:16:45 -0600*
Troy:
Wake up
The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for $300
- I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to be
in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  It‘s not going to
get better, Queen or no Queen, until that view changes
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:34:14 -0600*
First of all, play nice, your tone of "WAKE UP" is hardley appropriate for a
discussion group.
I am awake thank you and the discussion is about the command authority not the
political funding of the army.  As I stated before I believe that if we ever
lose complete moral authority to the politicians we will be in even worse shape
then we are in now.  Everyone is in complete agreement that the politicians run
the day to day show, However with the ultimate morale authority being with the
Queen, we have one out, that is a petition to the crown not to obey the orders
given us by short term thinkers.   It would be a hard sell to me to change the
oath to Jean Cretian and the boys from her Majesty.
As for how to change / lessen the impact of the govt, on the forces why would
we?  We are in a democratic country where they have every right to do with us
what the voters tell them to do.  If you do not like the way they are handling
the forces then vote against them ie Canadian Alliance.  That is how this
democratic process thing works if they want to disband regiment after regiment
then they have the right and must answer to the Canadian public who quite
frankley could care less about us.
However, they have no right to send us against international laws and must
answer to a higher morale authority.  This check and balance seems appropriate
to me and I am not sure why we would want to change it.
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:16:45 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Troy:
Wake up
The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for $300
- I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to be
in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  It‘s not going to
get better, Queen or no Queen, until that view changes
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:55:18 -0400*
Gentlemen, we the military, and more specifically, the contributors of this
group are a relatively select group of citizens and, statistically, an
insignificant and biased portion of the populace of Canada. Or of the world
for that matter, for the world was Trudeau‘s stage. Who among us can claim
the authority or knowledge to condemn Trudeau or any other PM for their
handling of the military without equally detailed consideration of every
other factor influencing their governments‘ decisions. Certainly, we each
have our opinions and have the right and privilege to express them in our
society, whether that be done here or in a more open forum. As soldier we
tend to focus, perhaps too narrowly, on what we think is good for the
military. Philosophically, our mandate is to support our nation in all
respects, Trudeau, as with any other national leader, had concerns of
nationhood that far outweighs our minor desires for money, equipment, etc. I
suppose we could march on Ottawa and demand what we consider our due, but
that would, of course undermine the very fabric of the society our own
predecessors were willing to die to protect. As are we by virtue of our
choice of profession. These are perhaps, not the best of days for the CF,
they are neither the worst.
My comments are not meant to either shield Trudeau or to object to the
comments made, only to state that all things must be considered in
perspective.
Just one grunt‘s opinion.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> I wondered how long it would be before someone tried to make that link.
>
> I hardly see any link between the character of Hitler and Trudeau.  I
however
> see a strong link between the two of them as poor leaders  For Trudeau
failed
> bilingualism strategy, failed attempt to address separatist issues, failed
> fiscal responsibility huge debt for many generations, failed regional
issues
> management, complete disregard and disrespect for those who did not agree
with
> his social experiments and above all invoking the war measures act and
allowing
> a police state to be instigated in Canada.  Comments that he made a mark
on
> Canadian Society and  should be rewarded I completely disagree with.  By
that
> definition, any "leader" who makes an impact should get mountains named
after
> them,   Hence Hilter Mountain in Germany why not??
>
> Failed leadership should not be rewarded.   A mark on society should not
> automatically be candidate for reward.  Maybe we in the forces should pay
a
> little more attention to that statement.
>
> That should get some anry responses........
> "dave"  on 10/10/2000 08:25:08 AM
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
> You pay more taxes than you feel you should.  You resent official
> bilingualism, you feel your children will have to pay for the social
> benefits you enjoy.  That makes him Hitler in your book?
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## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:49:11 -0600*
Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority, that
has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:01:03 -0400*
We must be careful when quoting cost per item for major projects. If we had
bought our rifles "off the rack" they would not have come with guaranteed
sets of spares, training for the necessary techs, full bi-lang
documentation, factory training for initial military cadres when
applicable, guaranteed remediation of faults identified up to final
acceptance, etc. If you check the "replacement cost" for that rifle now, I
think you‘ll find a significantly lower value. The other aspects of these
programs, of which most of us were less than delighted, can be summarized by
one or two if someone needs a synopsis.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Forsythe 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:16 AM
>
> The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
> would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for
$300
> - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
> the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:21:19 GMT*
Good question.
One way, if not to separate the military from politics, then at least to 
make the point that some sort of firewall is needed between the two i.e. - 
You guys shouldn‘t be used as pawns by politicians every time they‘re 
looking for an issue that‘ll let them sound fiscally responsible, or "groovy 
and sensitive" about international issues, or whatever. might be to restore 
public awareness of our miltary tradition and accomplishments, so ordinary 
Canadians - and, by extension, politicians - realize the military is one of 
the core institutions on which our society depends and is not "just another 
government agency".
Any thoughts on what the best ways to do this might be? It seems to me that 
post-the-50th-anniversary of the end of WWII there was a real spike in 
public consciousness on Canada‘s proud military tradition, but that still 
more is needed to keep the issue "front of mind".
This is one issue I hope to tackle at least to a small extent in my work 
some day, so suggestions are welcome.
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "dave" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: The West
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:27:34 -0700
How do we separate the Military from politics in this country.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600*
> The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
> would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for
$300
> - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
> the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
>
> or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to
be
> in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
>
> in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
> Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  >
>
Several points come to mind as I read this:
1. The military serves the country through the democratically elected
government. We may not like the decisions and if enough people object the
government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the mess that happens
when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars internally. Not only does it
create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so that GNP and GDP
increase. There is also the important idea that in the case of national
emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of production there
exists a production base and an experience base to build upon.
3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the Ontario/Quebec
would be the manufacturing base of the country and the west would provide
raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and enhance the base.
The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western Canada have for many
years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of economies of scale
for manufactured goods than if they were important.
These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t like them. There
are historical and economic reasons. While they may not be the best model
are what exists and that is the framework within which we operate.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:28:59 GMT*
Excellent points, all. The organic parliamentary tradition has many 
strenghts to recommend it - including this one - and just as I think 
Trudeau‘s attempts to monkey with it by repatriating the Constitution was 
not a great idea, so, too, do I think that while the Alliance is "right on" 
on many issues, their talk of bringing in "populist" mechanisms such as 
"recall" and referenda-a-go-go have not been clearly thought through.
Heaven help us if decisions about military spending and deployment are ever 
made by referendum!
----Original Message Follows----
From: Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: RE: The West
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:34:14 -0600
First of all, play nice, your tone of "WAKE UP" is hardley appropriate for a
discussion group.
I am awake thank you and the discussion is about the command authority not 
the
political funding of the army.  As I stated before I believe that if we ever
lose complete moral authority to the politicians we will be in even worse 
shape
then we are in now.  Everyone is in complete agreement that the politicians 
run
the day to day show, However with the ultimate morale authority being with 
the
Queen, we have one out, that is a petition to the crown not to obey the 
orders
given us by short term thinkers.   It would be a hard sell to me to change 
the
oath to Jean Cretian and the boys from her Majesty.
As for how to change / lessen the impact of the govt, on the forces why 
would
we?  We are in a democratic country where they have every right to do with 
us
what the voters tell them to do.  If you do not like the way they are 
handling
the forces then vote against them ie Canadian Alliance.  That is how this
democratic process thing works if they want to disband regiment after 
regiment
then they have the right and must answer to the Canadian public who quite
frankley could care less about us.
However, they have no right to send us against international laws and must
answer to a higher morale authority.  This check and balance seems 
appropriate
to me and I am not sure why we would want to change it.
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:16:45 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Troy:
Wake up
The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for $300
- I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to be
in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  It‘s not going to
get better, Queen or no Queen, until that view changes
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:31:39 -0600*
My my your tone keeps getting more excited, calm down this is a discussion.
You may not know this but we are a Parliamentary Monarchy not a Republic and our
ultimate morale authority is the Queen.  Check out your oath of allegiance some
time.   Notice who you swear devotion to.   I did not notice the PM / Political
Type mentioned, only the ultimate morale authority, the Queen.  You may not like
it, but that is the way it is.  A figurehead is exactly what she is until she is
needed, then the Queen of Canada has the ability to exert her authority and as
you have sworn allegiance to her you sir are expected to follow your oath and
obey her orders.
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:49:11 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority, that
has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:52:26 -0600*
Really interesting thought about the Alliance "grass root" policy towards the
military, never thought of that.
"Joan O. Arc"  on 10/10/2000 10:28:59 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Excellent points, all. The organic parliamentary tradition has many
strenghts to recommend it - including this one - and just as I think
Trudeau‘s attempts to monkey with it by repatriating the Constitution was
not a great idea, so, too, do I think that while the Alliance is "right on"
on many issues, their talk of bringing in "populist" mechanisms such as
"recall" and referenda-a-go-go have not been clearly thought through.
Heaven help us if decisions about military spending and deployment are ever
made by referendum!
----Original Message Follows----
From: Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: RE: The West
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:34:14 -0600
First of all, play nice, your tone of "WAKE UP" is hardley appropriate for a
discussion group.
I am awake thank you and the discussion is about the command authority not
the
political funding of the army.  As I stated before I believe that if we ever
lose complete moral authority to the politicians we will be in even worse
shape
then we are in now.  Everyone is in complete agreement that the politicians
run
the day to day show, However with the ultimate morale authority being with
the
Queen, we have one out, that is a petition to the crown not to obey the
orders
given us by short term thinkers.   It would be a hard sell to me to change
the
oath to Jean Cretian and the boys from her Majesty.
As for how to change / lessen the impact of the govt, on the forces why
would
we?  We are in a democratic country where they have every right to do with
us
what the voters tell them to do.  If you do not like the way they are
handling
the forces then vote against them ie Canadian Alliance.  That is how this
democratic process thing works if they want to disband regiment after
regiment
then they have the right and must answer to the Canadian public who quite
frankley could care less about us.
However, they have no right to send us against international laws and must
answer to a higher morale authority.  This check and balance seems
appropriate
to me and I am not sure why we would want to change it.
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:16:45 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Troy:
Wake up
The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for $300
- I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to be
in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  It‘s not going to
get better, Queen or no Queen, until that view changes
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:52:58 -0600*
I have no problem with the Queen - but I‘m looking forward. Swearing to the
Queen or Mickey Mouse makes no difference - we serve the government and by
extension people of Canada who put them there.  I find it difficult to
believe a situation could arise where the Crown would feel it necessary to
exert it‘s authority, and less plausible that anyone would bother to pay
attention. I, for one, prefer to remain focused on the de facto power
structure.
Parliamentary Democracy has its strengths and weaknesses - the Queen
represents an important link with our past, but let‘s be real - it has no
place in our day-to-day operations - remove it from the existing structures
and there would be scarcely a ripple through government and even less so
with most Canadians the Monarchist league excepted.
I don‘t advocate such a change - merely recognize the Crown in Canada is an
institution that has, practically, come and gone.
Time to turn our eyes forward.    
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com [SMTP:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com]
> Sent:Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:32 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:RE: The West
> 
> My my your tone keeps getting more excited, calm down this is a
> discussion.
> 
> You may not know this but we are a Parliamentary Monarchy not a Republic
> and our
> ultimate morale authority is the Queen.  Check out your oath of allegiance
> some
> time.   Notice who you swear devotion to.   I did not notice the PM /
> Political
> Type mentioned, only the ultimate morale authority, the Queen.  You may
> not like
> it, but that is the way it is.  A figurehead is exactly what she is until
> she is
> needed, then the Queen of Canada has the ability to exert her authority
> and as
> you have sworn allegiance to her you sir are expected to follow your oath
> and
> obey her orders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:49:11 AM
> 
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> 
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
> 
> 
> 
> Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
> good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> 
> The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> that
> has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
> the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:15:12 GMT*
Post-Free Trade, your latter point - about Central Canada exploiting the 
"outlying regions" as captive markets for its goods - simply doesn‘t hold 
water.
It‘s time for the West to stop nursing old grudges, realize that by any 
objective measure they live under incredibly propitious circumstances and 
are now being given a fair deal by Confederation, and get over it.
As an ex-pat Maritimer, I have no patience with people "Down East" when they 
whine on about their various historical regional grievances, and still less 
when folks in the far more prosperous West indulge in this kind of infantile 
and inaccurate whinging.
Mistakes were made that have now been corrected - that‘s the way history 
works - and perpetuating old grievances is hardly a constructive way to move 
forward as a country.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Bruce Williams" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: The West
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600
 > The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
 > would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for
$300
 > - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to possess
 > the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
 >
 > or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came to
be
 > in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
 >
 > in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many in
 > Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  >
 >
Several points come to mind as I read this:
1. The military serves the country through the democratically elected
government. We may not like the decisions and if enough people object the
government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the mess that happens
when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars internally. Not only does it
create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so that GNP and GDP
increase. There is also the important idea that in the case of national
emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of production there
exists a production base and an experience base to build upon.
3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the Ontario/Quebec
would be the manufacturing base of the country and the west would provide
raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and enhance the base.
The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western Canada have for many
years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of economies of scale
for manufactured goods than if they were important.
These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t like them. There
are historical and economic reasons. While they may not be the best model
are what exists and that is the framework within which we operate.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
 http://profiles.msn.com. 
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:18:17 -0600*
Interesting, my concern in looking forward I see no better system.  A republic
holds no appeal at all the Auzzis rightly voted that out as you are replacing
the monarch with a politician, not good.  Of the two, the monarchy is stable and
has no "master" to serve, in my view the much better deal.    As for swearing an
oath to "mickey" or whoever, I will let that go without debate heh heh, suffice
to say that I take my oath very serious and I would not swear to defend a
politician who has proven over the last 100 years to be interested only in their
own short sighted self interests.  The oath is everything, or should be in my
opinion.  If I believed that the politician represented the views of the "grass
roots" I might consider it but look at the current political structure and you
see that this country is run by 12-18 cabinet ministers.  MP‘s are TOLD how to
vote by this group and no riding in this country gets to tell the MP how to
vote.  So we have a close circle of "old boys" running the show and I am
supposed to lay down my life for them?  Hardly.  The Queen however has
demonstrated over hundreds of years that the country and the crown is what is
important to survive.  Hence their decisions are based on the long term and
something larger then themselves.  Hence my loyalty is protected and in good
hands I figure.  My .02 cents worth
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 10:52:58 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
I have no problem with the Queen - but I‘m looking forward. Swearing to the
Queen or Mickey Mouse makes no difference - we serve the government and by
extension people of Canada who put them there.  I find it difficult to
believe a situation could arise where the Crown would feel it necessary to
exert it‘s authority, and less plausible that anyone would bother to pay
attention. I, for one, prefer to remain focused on the de facto power
structure.
Parliamentary Democracy has its strengths and weaknesses - the Queen
represents an important link with our past, but let‘s be real - it has no
place in our day-to-day operations - remove it from the existing structures
and there would be scarcely a ripple through government and even less so
with most Canadians the Monarchist league excepted.
I don‘t advocate such a change - merely recognize the Crown in Canada is an
institution that has, practically, come and gone.
Time to turn our eyes forward.
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com [SMTP:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com]
> Sent:   Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:32 AM
> To:     army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:     RE: The West
>
> My my your tone keeps getting more excited, calm down this is a
> discussion.
>
> You may not know this but we are a Parliamentary Monarchy not a Republic
> and our
> ultimate morale authority is the Queen.  Check out your oath of allegiance
> some
> time.   Notice who you swear devotion to.   I did not notice the PM /
> Political
> Type mentioned, only the ultimate morale authority, the Queen.  You may
> not like
> it, but that is the way it is.  A figurehead is exactly what she is until
> she is
> needed, then the Queen of Canada has the ability to exert her authority
> and as
> you have sworn allegiance to her you sir are expected to follow your oath
> and
> obey her orders.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:49:11 AM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
>
>
>
> Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
> good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
>
> The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> that
> has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
> the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:33:27 -0600*
Speaking as a fellow ex-pat Maritimer I‘ve always thought it odd that people
who, by by some twist of fate, find themselves in a province blessed with
resources are so quick to turn their red necks on the rest of the country -
the same country that 70 years ago was loading freight cars with pickled
herring, potatos, clothes and whatever else they could spare because
depression-era Albertans found the dirt they were farming made not so good
eating.
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia were the two richest provinces at the time of
Condeferation and with Maritime Union being discussed in Charlottetown in
1864 we would have been a strong position economically moving into the 20th
century.
But we got hood-winked by those Upper and Lower Canadians and the rest is,
as they say, history.
Thank God Brian Mulroney had the foresight to propose and bring into being a
free trade agreement with the Excited States of America.  Maritimer business
leaders can now return to our old North-South trading patterns that served
us so well in the years before Canada. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Joan O. Arc [SMTP:joan_o_arc@hotmail.com]
> Sent:Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:15 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Re: The West
> 
> Post-Free Trade, your latter point - about Central Canada exploiting the 
> "outlying regions" as captive markets for its goods - simply doesn‘t hold 
> water.
> 
> It‘s time for the West to stop nursing old grudges, realize that by any 
> objective measure they live under incredibly propitious circumstances and 
> are now being given a fair deal by Confederation, and get over it.
> 
> As an ex-pat Maritimer, I have no patience with people "Down East" when
> they 
> whine on about their various historical regional grievances, and still
> less 
> when folks in the far more prosperous West indulge in this kind of
> infantile 
> and inaccurate whinging.
> 
> Mistakes were made that have now been corrected - that‘s the way history 
> works - and perpetuating old grievances is hardly a constructive way to
> move 
> forward as a country.
> 
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Bruce Williams" 
> Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: The West
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600
> 
> 
> 
>  > The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
>  > would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for
> $300
>  > - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to
> possess
>  > the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
>  >
>  > or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came
> to
> be
>  > in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
>  >
>  > in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many
> in
>  > Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  >
>  >
> 
> Several points come to mind as I read this:
> 
> 1. The military serves the country through the democratically elected
> government. We may not like the decisions and if enough people object the
> government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the mess that happens
> when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
> 
> 2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars internally. Not only does
> it
> create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so that GNP and GDP
> increase. There is also the important idea that in the case of national
> emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of production there
> exists a production base and an experience base to build upon.
> 
> 3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the Ontario/Quebec
> would be the manufacturing base of the country and the west would provide
> raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and enhance the base.
> The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western Canada have for many
> years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of economies of
> scale
> for manufactured goods than if they were important.
> 
> These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t like them. There
> are historical and economic reasons. While they may not be the best model
> are what exists and that is the framework within which we operate.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
>  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:49:22 -0600*
I take it then that you oppose an elected, equal seante that would - if
implemented - create a bi-cameral form of government far closer in structure
to that of our neighbours to the South.
Perhaps we should restore provincial senates as a means of strengthening our
ties to Mother England  -
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com [SMTP:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com]
> Sent:Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:18 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:RE: The West
> 
> Interesting, my concern in looking forward I see no better system.  A
> republic
> holds no appeal at all the Auzzis rightly voted that out as you are
> replacing
> the monarch with a politician, not good.  Of the two, the monarchy is
> stable and
> has no "master" to serve, in my view the much better deal.    As for
> swearing an
> oath to "mickey" or whoever, I will let that go without debate heh heh,
> suffice
> to say that I take my oath very serious and I would not swear to defend a
> politician who has proven over the last 100 years to be interested only in
> their
> own short sighted self interests.  The oath is everything, or should be in
> my
> opinion.  If I believed that the politician represented the views of the
> "grass
> roots" I might consider it but look at the current political structure and
> you
> see that this country is run by 12-18 cabinet ministers.  MP‘s are TOLD
> how to
> vote by this group and no riding in this country gets to tell the MP how
> to
> vote.  So we have a close circle of "old boys" running the show and I am
> supposed to lay down my life for them?  Hardly.  The Queen however has
> demonstrated over hundreds of years that the country and the crown is what
> is
> important to survive.  Hence their decisions are based on the long term
> and
> something larger then themselves.  Hence my loyalty is protected and in
> good
> hands I figure.  My .02 cents worth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 10:52:58 AM
> 
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> 
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem with the Queen - but I‘m looking forward. Swearing to
> the
> Queen or Mickey Mouse makes no difference - we serve the government and by
> extension people of Canada who put them there.  I find it difficult to
> believe a situation could arise where the Crown would feel it necessary to
> exert it‘s authority, and less plausible that anyone would bother to pay
> attention. I, for one, prefer to remain focused on the de facto power
> structure.
> 
> Parliamentary Democracy has its strengths and weaknesses - the Queen
> represents an important link with our past, but let‘s be real - it has no
> place in our day-to-day operations - remove it from the existing
> structures
> and there would be scarcely a ripple through government and even less so
> with most Canadians the Monarchist league excepted.
> 
> I don‘t advocate such a change - merely recognize the Crown in Canada is
> an
> institution that has, practically, come and gone.
> 
> Time to turn our eyes forward.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com
> [SMTP:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com]
> > Sent:   Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:32 AM
> > To:     army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:     RE: The West
> >
> > My my your tone keeps getting more excited, calm down this is a
> > discussion.
> >
> > You may not know this but we are a Parliamentary Monarchy not a Republic
> > and our
> > ultimate morale authority is the Queen.  Check out your oath of
> allegiance
> > some
> > time.   Notice who you swear devotion to.   I did not notice the PM /
> > Political
> > Type mentioned, only the ultimate morale authority, the Queen.  You may
> > not like
> > it, but that is the way it is.  A figurehead is exactly what she is
> until
> > she is
> > needed, then the Queen of Canada has the ability to exert her authority
> > and as
> > you have sworn allegiance to her you sir are expected to follow your
> oath
> > and
> > obey her orders.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Derrick Forsythe  on 10/10/2000 09:49:11 AM
> >
> > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >
> > To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > Subject:  RE: The West
> >
> >
> >
> > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well
> and
> > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> >
> > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> > that
> > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they
> are
> > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:40:03 -0600*
I agree with Derrick. Some of those "old" grievances are still around.
Why do I have to suffer the extra price to buy a Canadian or at worst
North American made Honda/Toyauto because of the Auto Pact?
Democracy only works when the majority respects the rights of the
minority. It seems to have been OK for Central Canada to exploit the
West/East with higher priced domestic manufactured goods but when energy
becomes a major factor of production costs then the NEP is legislated
for the good of the majority at the expense of the minority, who are
what arrogance! supposed to remain hewers of wood and drawers of water
well, as long as the prices of wood and water don‘t get too high.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
> 
> Speaking as a fellow ex-pat Maritimer I‘ve always thought it odd that people
> who, by by some twist of fate, find themselves in a province blessed with
> resources are so quick to turn their red necks on the rest of the country -
> the same country that 70 years ago was loading freight cars with pickled
> herring, potatos, clothes and whatever else they could spare because
> depression-era Albertans found the dirt they were farming made not so good
> eating.
> 
> New Brunswick and Nova Scotia were the two richest provinces at the time of
> Condeferation and with Maritime Union being discussed in Charlottetown in
> 1864 we would have been a strong position economically moving into the 20th
> century.
> 
> But we got hood-winked by those Upper and Lower Canadians and the rest is,
> as they say, history.
> 
> Thank God Brian Mulroney had the foresight to propose and bring into being a
> free trade agreement with the Excited States of America.  Maritimer business
> leaders can now return to our old North-South trading patterns that served
> us so well in the years before Canada.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joan O. Arc [SMTP:joan_o_arc@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:15 AM
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:      Re: The West
> >
> > Post-Free Trade, your latter point - about Central Canada exploiting the
> > "outlying regions" as captive markets for its goods - simply doesn‘t hold
> > water.
> >
> > It‘s time for the West to stop nursing old grudges, realize that by any
> > objective measure they live under incredibly propitious circumstances and
> > are now being given a fair deal by Confederation, and get over it.
> >
> > As an ex-pat Maritimer, I have no patience with people "Down East" when
> > they
> > whine on about their various historical regional grievances, and still
> > less
> > when folks in the far more prosperous West indulge in this kind of
> > infantile
> > and inaccurate whinging.
> >
> > Mistakes were made that have now been corrected - that‘s the way history
> > works - and perpetuating old grievances is hardly a constructive way to
> > move
> > forward as a country.
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Bruce Williams" 
> > Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: The West
> > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600
> >
> >
> >
> >  > The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why else
> >  > would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack for
> > $300
> >  > - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to
> > possess
> >  > the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
> >  >
> >  > or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base came
> > to
> > be
> >  > in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
> >  >
> >  > in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by many
> > in
> >  > Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  >
> >  >
> >
> > Several points come to mind as I read this:
> >
> > 1. The military serves the country through the democratically elected
> > government. We may not like the decisions and if enough people object the
> > government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the mess that happens
> > when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
> >
> > 2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars internally. Not only does
> > it
> > create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so that GNP and GDP
> > increase. There is also the important idea that in the case of national
> > emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of production there
> > exists a production base and an experience base to build upon.
> >
> > 3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the Ontario/Quebec
> > would be the manufacturing base of the country and the west would provide
> > raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and enhance the base.
> > The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western Canada have for many
> > years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of economies of
> > scale
> > for manufactured goods than if they were important.
> >
> > These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t like them. There
> > are historical and economic reasons. While they may not be the best model
> > are what exists and that is the framework within which we operate.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:53:01 -0700 (PDT)*
--- Donald Schepens  wrote:
> Look, give it a break.  Lets get off of politics and
> return to military.
> 
Yeah!!!!  Let‘s talk shop!!!  oh...wait...I thought we
were.  I‘m curious...how do you guys talk about the State
of the Military w/o groaning about military spending?  I
can‘t.
mike
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: The West
> 
> 
> > Yes and Hitler changed the face of Europe, I see no
> reason to rame
> mountains
> > after fools, tools or people who negatively affect my
> and my childrens
> life.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/09/2000
> 01:51:01 PM
> >
> > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > Subject:  Re: The West
> >
> >
> >
> > I sent out a copy of the LFRR Land Force Reserve
> Restructure papers just
> a
> > while ago.  For whatever its worth, love or hate
> Trudeau, I think that he
> > did change the face of politics in Canada.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ian Edwards 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: The West
> >
> >
> > > Well, Alberta at least. I‘m tempted to give you a
> three page history
> > > lesson, but if you really want to know I suspect you
> are capable of
> > > doing your own research, or should have done it in
> grade school.
> > >
> > > Suffice to say that the original settlers of Alberta,
> of any
> > > technological sophistication ie. non-native and
> number were American
> > > cowboys and ranch owners. From there, like Topsy,
> "things just grew‘d".
> > >
> > > Ian Edwards
> > > From a town just
> > > outside "Redmonton"
> > >
> > > Jay Digital wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I wonder why the west has a reputation of being
> right-wing?
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 5:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Bounce backs
> > > >
> > > > > Haven‘t had any trouble since I‘ve not tried to
> use command words.
> The
> > > > > "traffic" on this bulletin board tends to ebb and
> flow as the weeks
> go
> > > > > by. At least we are not being jammed any more
> touch wood by foul
> > > > > mouthed teens not that I‘m implying that
> all/most teens are this
> way,
> > > > > just that the language of some clearly indicated
> their age level.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, not ALL of us mourn the death of
> Trudeau. Some of us,
> > > > > particularly out West, feel that a lot of this is
> just hype put out
> by
> > > > > those, such as the Liberals and the CBC, who
> strongly favour:
> > > > > a a very strong central government at the
> expense of regional
> needs
> > > > > b a powerful government at the expense of
> individual economic and
> > > > > social initiatives
> > > > >
> > > > > I am amazed, but not surprised, at the outpouring
> of emotion by
> those
> > > > > who were at best in elementary school when
> Trudeau left office.
> > Reminds
> > > > > me of the short term hype over the death of
> Princess Di who dat?.
> > > > > Forgotten in all this brouhaha is that Trudeau
> wasn‘t very popular
> > when
> > > > > he left office.
> > > > >
> > > > > I may well be alone, but I will continue to vote
> Tory provided they
> > can
> > > > > field a suitable candidate in my riding. I‘m
> obviously not about to
> > jump
> > > > > on any bandwagon.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, perhaps we can have someone comment on the
> recent speech of Art
> > > > > Egglington annoucing increased spending for the
> PRes for increased
> > > > > strength levels how will more recruits be
> attracted?, training and
> > > > > equipment and reorganization of roles of units.
> What are the
> practical
> > > > > results going to be? I‘ve just read 4-5 lines in
> my local paper so
> far
> > > > > and IIRC the additional funding doesn‘t buy very
> much.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Joan O. Arc" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has anyone else had problems of late posting
> messages that contain
> > words
> > > > > > identical to/similar to the "command words"
> used in operating this
> > list?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I‘ve had a couple of messages bounced back to
> me by the list
> > > > administrator
> > > > > > as "unpostable" because of this glitch in
> recent weeks and this
> has,
> > I
> > > > must
> > > > > > say, cooled my ardour for participating in the
> various
> discussions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I notice the volume of posts to the list seems
> to have dropped
> > recently.
> > > > Is
> > > > > > this perhaps because other people are having
> similar problems with
> > > > bounce
> > > > > > backs, or because we‘ve all been too busy
> mourning the death of
> > Trudeau,
> > > > or
> > > > > > just a fluke?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, I‘m still trying to track down data on
> Canadian military
> > spending
> > > > since
> > > > > > the end of WWII. Any leads anyone can provide
> on where this
> > information
> > > > > > might be easily found without having to submit
> complicated
> queries
> > to
> > > > DND,
> > > > > > for instance! would be appreciated.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joan
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail
> at
> > > >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your
> own public profile
> at
> > > > > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send
> a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account
> you wish
> > > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in
> the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account
> you wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in
> the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > >
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> wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
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> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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> >
> >
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
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> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT)*
--- dave  wrote:
> How do we separate the Military from politics in this
> country.
> 
Yeah!!! 
mike
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:57:19 -0700 (PDT)*
--- Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com wrote:
> I wondered how long it would be before someone tried to
> make that link.
> 
> I hardly see any link between the character of Hitler and
> Trudeau.  I however
> see a strong link between the two of them as poor leaders
>  For Trudeau failed
> bilingualism strategy, failed attempt to address
> separatist issues, failed
> fiscal responsibility huge debt for many generations,
> failed regional issues
> management, complete disregard and disrespect for those
> who did not agree with
> his social experiments and above all invoking the war
> measures act and allowing
> a police state to be instigated in Canada.  Comments that
> he made a mark on
> Canadian Society and  should be rewarded I completely
> disagree with.  By that
> definition, any "leader" who makes an impact should get
> mountains named after
> them,   Hence Hilter Mountain in Germany why not??
> 
> Failed leadership should not be rewarded.   A mark on
> society should not
> automatically be candidate for reward.  Maybe we in the
> forces should pay a
> little more attention to that statement.
> 
> 
> That should get some anry responses........
> 
> 
Troy,
Hitler was a speed-freak.  Trudeau might, or might not,
have been.  Huge differences abound, to say the least.
mike
> 
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:02:25 -0700 (PDT)*
--- Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com wrote:
> Wow, can not disagree more.  That is how dictators
> emerge, you have to have the
> military separate from the Govt like we do in Canada if
> not what is to stop
> the Govt from using the military against the citizens. 
> That is why we have the
> highest morale authority as the Queen and we swear oath
> to her god bless her
> and not a short sighted politician.
Troy,
The military is a wholly futile entity that exists to wage
war on targets designated by people w/o any accountability
for their actions.  Only in the military any military can
the possibility exist that Officers will waste the living
to save the dead.  In a perfect world, the grunt gets what
he deserves.  or maybe, I‘m naive...
mike
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:09:19 -0700 (PDT)*
Can I have some cheese with my whine???
mike
--- "Joan O. Arc"  wrote:
> Post-Free Trade, your latter point - about Central Canada
> exploiting the 
> "outlying regions" as captive markets for its goods -
> simply doesn‘t hold 
> water.
> 
> It‘s time for the West to stop nursing old grudges,
> realize that by any 
> objective measure they live under incredibly propitious
> circumstances and 
> are now being given a fair deal by Confederation, and get
> over it.
> 
> As an ex-pat Maritimer, I have no patience with people
> "Down East" when they 
> whine on about their various historical regional
> grievances, and still less 
> when folks in the far more prosperous West indulge in
> this kind of infantile 
> and inaccurate whinging.
> 
> Mistakes were made that have now been corrected - that‘s
> the way history 
> works - and perpetuating old grievances is hardly a
> constructive way to move 
> forward as a country.
> 
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Bruce Williams" 
> Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: The West
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600
> 
> 
> 
>  > The Military has, in recent times, always been tied
> politics - why else
>  > would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy
> off the rack for
> $300
>  > - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how
> we came to possess
>  > the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
>  >
>  > or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern
> supply base came to
> be
>  > in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
>  >
>  > in the end defence and defence spending are and have
> been seen by many in
>  > Ottawa as an extension of regional development
> spending.  >
>  >
> 
> Several points come to mind as I read this:
> 
> 1. The military serves the country through the
> democratically elected
> government. We may not like the decisions and if enough
> people object the
> government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the
> mess that happens
> when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
> 
> 2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars
> internally. Not only does it
> create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so
> that GNP and GDP
> increase. There is also the important idea that in the
> case of national
> emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of
> production there
> exists a production base and an experience base to build
> upon.
> 
> 3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the
> Ontario/Quebec
> would be the manufacturing base of the country and the
> west would provide
> raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and
> enhance the base.
> The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western
> Canada have for many
> years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of
> economies of scale
> for manufactured goods than if they were important.
> 
> These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t
> like them. There
> are historical and economic reasons. While they may not
> be the best model
> are what exists and that is the framework within which we
> operate.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public
> profile at 
>  http://profiles.msn.com. 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:06:54 -0600*
Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The Queen
is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a figurehead.
I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up against the
PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War Measures
Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada to do
something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Forsythe 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: The West
> Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
> good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
>
> The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
that
> has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
> the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:30:38 GMT*
1  The NEP was repealed years ago.
2 Alberta‘s oil industry was developed largely on the back of subsidies 
provided by central Canada for many years prior to the passage of the NEP. 
This is a phenomenon known as "tit for tat" and is the sort of thing good 
neighbours do for each other from time to time.
3 If you follow the news, you will note that last week the WTO ruled the 
Auto Pact off-side and it, like the NEP, is now about to go the way of the 
dinosaur.
4 Yes, some policies towards the West and my native Maritimes have been 
unfair. As have some towards central Canada particularly Ontario. But 
overall we are a blessed people in a blessed country and regional sniping 
and grudge-bearing do none of us any credit, or, for that matter, once the 
offending policies are off the books, good.
----Original Message Follows----
From: Ian Edwards 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: The West
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:40:03 -0600
I agree with Derrick. Some of those "old" grievances are still around.
Why do I have to suffer the extra price to buy a Canadian or at worst
North American made Honda/Toyauto because of the Auto Pact?
Democracy only works when the majority respects the rights of the
minority. It seems to have been OK for Central Canada to exploit the
West/East with higher priced domestic manufactured goods but when energy
becomes a major factor of production costs then the NEP is legislated
for the good of the majority at the expense of the minority, who are
what arrogance! supposed to remain hewers of wood and drawers of water
well, as long as the prices of wood and water don‘t get too high.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
 >
 > Speaking as a fellow ex-pat Maritimer I‘ve always thought it odd that 
people
 > who, by by some twist of fate, find themselves in a province blessed with
 > resources are so quick to turn their red necks on the rest of the country 
-
 > the same country that 70 years ago was loading freight cars with pickled
 > herring, potatos, clothes and whatever else they could spare because
 > depression-era Albertans found the dirt they were farming made not so 
good
 > eating.
 >
 > New Brunswick and Nova Scotia were the two richest provinces at the time 
of
 > Condeferation and with Maritime Union being discussed in Charlottetown in
 > 1864 we would have been a strong position economically moving into the 
20th
 > century.
 >
 > But we got hood-winked by those Upper and Lower Canadians and the rest 
is,
 > as they say, history.
 >
 > Thank God Brian Mulroney had the foresight to propose and bring into 
being a
 > free trade agreement with the Excited States of America.  Maritimer 
business
 > leaders can now return to our old North-South trading patterns that 
served
 > us so well in the years before Canada.
 >
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Joan O. Arc [SMTP:joan_o_arc@hotmail.com]
 > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:15 AM
 > > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
 > > Subject:      Re: The West
 > >
 > > Post-Free Trade, your latter point - about Central Canada exploiting 
the
 > > "outlying regions" as captive markets for its goods - simply doesn‘t 
hold
 > > water.
 > >
 > > It‘s time for the West to stop nursing old grudges, realize that by any
 > > objective measure they live under incredibly propitious circumstances 
and
 > > are now being given a fair deal by Confederation, and get over it.
 > >
 > > As an ex-pat Maritimer, I have no patience with people "Down East" when
 > > they
 > > whine on about their various historical regional grievances, and still
 > > less
 > > when folks in the far more prosperous West indulge in this kind of
 > > infantile
 > > and inaccurate whinging.
 > >
 > > Mistakes were made that have now been corrected - that‘s the way 
history
 > > works - and perpetuating old grievances is hardly a constructive way to
 > > move
 > > forward as a country.
 > >
 > > ----Original Message Follows----
 > > From: "Bruce Williams" 
 > > Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
 > > To: 
 > > Subject: Re: The West
 > > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:20:46 -0600
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >  > The Military has, in recent times, always been tied politics - why 
else
 > >  > would we pay $3,000 for a personal weapon we could buy off the rack 
for
 > > $300
 > >  > - I don‘t even want to get into CF18 contracts and how we came to
 > > possess
 > >  > the Little ****ty Vehicle Wheeled.
 > >  >
 > >  > or do you want to discuss, in detail, how the eastern supply base 
came
 > > to
 > > be
 > >  > in Montreal - not Kingston as recommended by the army.
 > >  >
 > >  > in the end defence and defence spending are and have been seen by 
many
 > > in
 > >  > Ottawa as an extension of regional development spending.  >
 > >  >
 > >
 > > Several points come to mind as I read this:
 > >
 > > 1. The military serves the country through the democratically elected
 > > government. We may not like the decisions and if enough people object 
the
 > > government will change at election time. I‘ve seen the mess that 
happens
 > > when the military tries to run a country...NO THANKS!
 > >
 > > 2. Every country attempts to spend tax dollars internally. Not only 
does
 > > it
 > > create jobs but in theory enhances the economic base so that GNP and 
GDP
 > > increase. There is also the important idea that in the case of national
 > > emergency when we may be cut of from foreign sources of production 
there
 > > exists a production base and an experience base to build upon.
 > >
 > > 3. It has been Canadian policy since the 1870‘s that the Ontario/Quebec
 > > would be the manufacturing base of the country and the west would 
provide
 > > raw material agricultural and resources to sustain and enhance the 
base.
 > > The side effect of this is that  Atlantic and Western Canada have for 
many
 > > years paid more due to transportation costs and lack of economies of
 > > scale
 > > for manufactured goods than if they were important.
 > >
 > > These facts are not going to change just because we don‘t like them. 
There
 > > are historical and economic reasons. While they may not be the best 
model
 > > are what exists and that is the framework within which we operate.
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > message body.
 > >
 > > 
_________________________________________________________________________
 > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
 > >
 > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
 > >  http://profiles.msn.com. 
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > > message body.
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:19:57 -0700 (PDT)*
Based on the question, Troy has the right idea.  How do you
DO that?
mike
--- Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com wrote:
> Very good question.  Since our highest morale authority
> is the Queen here in
> Canada, how about having her take a more active part in
> Armed Forces?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "dave"  on 10/10/2000 08:27:34 AM
> 
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> 
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
> 
> 
> 
> How do we separate the Military from politics in this
> country.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:15:04 -0600*
I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something, rather
preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law etc.  That
is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?  Very easy,
The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army would be
ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we would be
obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
"Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The Queen
is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a figurehead.
I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up against the
PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War Measures
Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada to do
something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
----- Original Message -----
From: Derrick Forsythe 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: The West
> Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well and
> good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
>
> The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
that
> has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they are
> the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:07:52 -0600*
Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
legislation
2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat acquianted
with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate were to
hold the country hostage.
Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking and
blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
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## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:27:51 -0600*
You never played well with the other kids when you were young right?  Just a
guess... heh heh
to respond, yes that specific time limitation is FOREVER so out to you on that
one,,,,, The reform of the senate would be a welcome change that is for sure.
However, the intent of the senate remains the same, from a higher authority to
stop power crazy politicians from doing acts against the law international and
to ensure that the people are not lead down the garden path.  As for your blow
and suck comment, I assume that your are aware that it is ok now in your armed
forces to do that so unless you are commenting from personal experience, I would
appreciate leaving any sexual reference out of the discussion group thanks.....
unless it involves Steve Kervers butt kissing to the CO of Svc Btn.  heh heh heh
Derrick Forsythe  on 10/11/2000 11:07:52 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  RE: The West
Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
legislation
2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat acquianted
with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate were to
hold the country hostage.
Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking and
blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:40:51 -0600*
the sucking and blowing reference had nothing to do with a sexual reference
- but my, my you takers.
double check your sources on the Senate‘s ability to hold up bills - you‘ve
been reading from bad data
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com [SMTP:Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com]
> Sent:Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:28 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:RE: The West
> 
> You never played well with the other kids when you were young right?  Just
> a
> guess... heh heh
> 
> to respond, yes that specific time limitation is FOREVER so out to you on
> that
> one,,,,, The reform of the senate would be a welcome change that is for
> sure.
> However, the intent of the senate remains the same, from a higher
> authority to
> stop power crazy politicians from doing acts against the law
> international and
> to ensure that the people are not lead down the garden path.  As for your
> blow
> and suck comment, I assume that your are aware that it is ok now in your
> armed
> forces to do that so unless you are commenting from personal experience, I
> would
> appreciate leaving any sexual reference out of the discussion group
> thanks.....
> unless it involves Steve Kervers butt kissing to the CO of Svc Btn.  heh
> heh heh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derrick Forsythe  on 10/11/2000 11:07:52 AM
> 
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> 
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
> 
> 1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
> legislation
> 
> 2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat acquianted
> with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate were
> to
> hold the country hostage.
> 
> Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking and
> blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:39:03 -0700 (PDT)*
I find it interesting that by definition, politics is the
study of group dynamics beyond the family level.  In
conjunction with that, it‘s easier to imagine a political
role for the military.  That notion already exists, but it
isn‘t very clear for most people.  Is it just me, or do
most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel persecuted
from time to time as a result of failures within the
political system?
mike
--- Derrick Forsythe  wrote:
> Short answer:
> 
> you don‘t
> 
> 
> > How do we separate the Military from politics in this
> country.
> > 
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:48:29 -0700 (PDT)*
The heat in the kitchen is almost too much to bear!
I somewhat agree with Mr. Forsythe, but I also want to
remind him that bureacracies ALWAYS follow the path of
least resistance. This doesn‘t apply to all, I‘m sure.  But
it does apply to most.
The military‘s most basic of goals is to overwhelm the
enemy with superior resources with reduced expenditures of
resources resources:  land, labor, and capital.  However,
it has a responsibility to evolve into an entity that is
more apt to contain and reduce enemy obstacles.  This might
explain why senior-ranking members of the Service seem to
be concerned with political correctness.  Or is it just me?
mike
--- Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com wrote:
> My my your tone keeps getting more excited, calm down
> this is a discussion.
> 
> You may not know this but we are a Parliamentary Monarchy
> not a Republic and our
> ultimate morale authority is the Queen.  Check out your
> oath of allegiance some
> time.   Notice who you swear devotion to.   I did not
> notice the PM / Political
> Type mentioned, only the ultimate morale authority, the
> Queen.  You may not like
> it, but that is the way it is.  A figurehead is exactly
> what she is until she is
> needed, then the Queen of Canada has the ability to exert
> her authority and as
> you have sworn allegiance to her you sir are expected to
> follow your oath and
> obey her orders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Derrick Forsythe  on
> 10/10/2000 09:49:11 AM
> 
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> 
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
> 
> 
> 
> Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor
> should it -
> prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen
> is all well and
> good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked
> we brought our
> Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks
> very much.
> 
> The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be
> no more that a
> figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate
> moral authority, that
> has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in
> Ottawa - they are
> the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our
> troops overseas -
> shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
__________________________________________________
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:00:41 -0600*
Hey, leave me out of this.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: The West
> You never played well with the other kids when you were young right?  Just
a
> guess... heh heh
>
> to respond, yes that specific time limitation is FOREVER so out to you on
that
> one,,,,, The reform of the senate would be a welcome change that is for
sure.
> However, the intent of the senate remains the same, from a higher
authority to
> stop power crazy politicians from doing acts against the law
international and
> to ensure that the people are not lead down the garden path.  As for your
blow
> and suck comment, I assume that your are aware that it is ok now in your
armed
> forces to do that so unless you are commenting from personal experience, I
would
> appreciate leaving any sexual reference out of the discussion group
thanks.....
> unless it involves Steve Kervers butt kissing to the CO of Svc Btn.  heh
heh heh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Derrick Forsythe  on 10/11/2000 11:07:52 AM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  RE: The West
>
>
>
> Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
>
> 1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
> legislation
>
> 2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat acquianted
> with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate were
to
> hold the country hostage.
>
> Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking and
> blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:05:04 -0600*
Do you really believe that would happen the Senate not authorizing the
Legislation or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something,
rather
> preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law etc.
That
> is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?  Very
easy,
> The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army would be
> ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we
would be
> obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
>
>
>
>
> "Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The
Queen
> is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a figurehead.
> I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up against
the
> PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War
Measures
> Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada to do
> something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derrick Forsythe 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
> Subject: RE: The West
>
>
> > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well
and
> > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> >
> > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> that
> > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they
are
> > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:52:41 GMT*
Re: the comments on Senate reform below.
While fairer regional representation and greater effectiveness would be two 
very desireable things for our august Senate, I‘m not so sure about the 
elected bit. Once you start electing Senators, all you have is another bunch 
of pols fixated on short-term gain and their own re-electability who will be 
susceptible to all the same vanities, foolishness and corruption that plague 
the Commons.
The idea of an unelected Senate as with the Brit House of Lords that was 
is that there are members of the "elites" in our society who are willing and 
able to take responsiblity for the country‘s *long-term* well-being and to 
put the national interest ahead of partisan bickering OK, so we don‘t 
always do so well on that one under our current system! and playing to the 
press gallery.
While the idea that we might actually need some sort of enlightened - and 
unelected - elite looking out for us by, for instance, providing "sober 
second thought" on deployment of the military, is an uncomfortable one in a 
society as fixated on the democratic ideal as ours, I have yet to be 
persuaded that Canada would benefit from following the US example of having 
*two* houses of greedy, elected nincompoops passing judgment on the nation‘s 
laws and policies. One is, it seems to me, quite enough.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: The West
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:00:41 -0600
Hey, leave me out of this.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:27 AM
Subject: RE: The West
 > You never played well with the other kids when you were young right?  
Just
a
 > guess... heh heh
 >
 > to respond, yes that specific time limitation is FOREVER so out to you on
that
 > one,,,,, The reform of the senate would be a welcome change that is for
sure.
 > However, the intent of the senate remains the same, from a higher
authority to
 > stop power crazy politicians from doing acts against the law
international and
 > to ensure that the people are not lead down the garden path.  As for your
blow
 > and suck comment, I assume that your are aware that it is ok now in your
armed
 > forces to do that so unless you are commenting from personal experience, 
I
would
 > appreciate leaving any sexual reference out of the discussion group
thanks.....
 > unless it involves Steve Kervers butt kissing to the CO of Svc Btn.  heh
heh heh
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Derrick Forsythe  on 10/11/2000 11:07:52 AM
 >
 > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
 >
 > To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
 > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
 > Subject:  RE: The West
 >
 >
 >
 > Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
 >
 > 1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
 > legislation
 >
 > 2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat 
acquianted
 > with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate were
to
 > hold the country hostage.
 >
 > Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking and
 > blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > message body.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
 > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
 > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:09:49 -0400*
I don‘t think persecution is an apt descriptor, for that implies an overt
intention to destroy or restrict. Inadvertent neglect through the higher
prioritization of other social needs is, perhaps, a better description. Then
again, care and feeding of the military has never been a peacetime hobby of
Canadian governments.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael McDermott 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: The West
> Is it just me, or do
> most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel persecuted
> from time to time as a result of failures within the
> political system?
>
> mike
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----------



## army

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:34:45 -0600*
On the contrary: politics is the art of the possible PolySci 101, first
day‘s lecture notes.
A political role for the military smells like a junta in the making. One
soldier talking to one civilian at a time is different. And that‘s what
we must do, convince one civy at a time, that our foreign policy is
wrong and that our military is there to carry out some of the polices of
our foreign policy. Lloyd Axworthy, our Foreign Minister, is about to
leave lets hope he doesn‘t pass on his rose tinted glasses. O‘Leary
said it well a few days ago, we must ensure that we don‘t look for an
increased military budget/strength just because it either boosts our own
ego or our own self interests hope I‘m not putting words in your mouth
Mike O‘L.
Michael McDermott wrote:
> 
> I find it interesting that by definition, politics is the
> study of group dynamics beyond the family level.  In
> conjunction with that, it‘s easier to imagine a political
> role for the military.  That notion already exists, but it
> isn‘t very clear for most people.  Is it just me, or do
> most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel persecuted
> from time to time as a result of failures within the
> political system?
> 
> mike
> 
> --- Derrick Forsythe  wrote:
> >       Short answer:
> >
> >       you don‘t
> >
> >
> > > How do we separate the Military from politics in this
> > country.
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>  http://mail.yahoo.com/ 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:08:59 -0400*
Essentially, we‘re on the same page. The requisite subordination of the
military to the government in a democracy dictates that we must make do with
the share apportioned to us. Our right to free speech allows us to express
individual disagreement, but expectations that such opinions, collectively,
should dictate the decision making of a legally elected government
undermines the entire concept of our society. Of course, if a majority of
the public began to express sufficient support for a stronger military, then
perhaps it could occur. But I cannot visualize, at this time, a situation
which would create that support in sufficient strength or duration to
realize significant increases to military funding. The bottom line is,
increasing taxation to increase military funding is unpalatable at best, and
we‘re not likely to see other programs cut to spend more on a military that
most Canadians are unaware of its roles and employment in the world.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: The West
> On the contrary: politics is the art of the possible PolySci 101, first
> day‘s lecture notes.
>
> A political role for the military smells like a junta in the making. One
> soldier talking to one civilian at a time is different. And that‘s what
> we must do, convince one civy at a time, that our foreign policy is
> wrong and that our military is there to carry out some of the polices of
> our foreign policy. Lloyd Axworthy, our Foreign Minister, is about to
> leave lets hope he doesn‘t pass on his rose tinted glasses. O‘Leary
> said it well a few days ago, we must ensure that we don‘t look for an
> increased military budget/strength just because it either boosts our own
> ego or our own self interests hope I‘m not putting words in your mouth
> Mike O‘L.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:21:24 -0600*
I have to believe it would happen in the case where the leaders of the nation
have lost track of reality and are steering the country on a collision course
with international law.
If I did not believe that the ultimate morale authority was viable and would be
invoked I would not be in the forces.  It is my safety net, my only option for
not committing / being ordered to commit crimes against humanity and the only
grounds for not obeying an illegal order.
As for the oath, I am deeply troubled by a couple of responses from members who
feel the oath is just a couple of words to be uttered when you sign up.  There
should be nothing more concrete in our system then adherence to our oath, meere
words?  maybe, but the foundation of our entire ethos.  Much like what keeps a
marriage together, I wonder how those who believe oaths are just words justify
that to their spouses....
"Donald Schepens"  on 10/11/2000 05:05:04 PM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
Do you really believe that would happen the Senate not authorizing the
Legislation or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something,
rather
> preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law etc.
That
> is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?  Very
easy,
> The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army would be
> ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we
would be
> obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
>
>
>
>
> "Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The
Queen
> is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a figurehead.
> I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up against
the
> PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War
Measures
> Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada to do
> something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derrick Forsythe 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
> Subject: RE: The West
>
>
> > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well
and
> > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> >
> > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that a
> > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> that
> > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they
are
> > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:31:19 -0600*
An interesting comment, and I must assure you that I take jy oath seriously.
But the question still stands.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> I have to believe it would happen in the case where the leaders of the
nation
> have lost track of reality and are steering the country on a collision
course
> with international law.
>
> If I did not believe that the ultimate morale authority was viable and
would be
> invoked I would not be in the forces.  It is my safety net, my only option
for
> not committing / being ordered to commit crimes against humanity and the
only
> grounds for not obeying an illegal order.
>
> As for the oath, I am deeply troubled by a couple of responses from
members who
> feel the oath is just a couple of words to be uttered when you sign up.
There
> should be nothing more concrete in our system then adherence to our oath,
meere
> words?  maybe, but the foundation of our entire ethos.  Much like what
keeps a
> marriage together, I wonder how those who believe oaths are just words
justify
> that to their spouses....
>
>
>
>
> "Donald Schepens"  on 10/11/2000 05:05:04 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> Do you really believe that would happen the Senate not authorizing the
> Legislation or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:15 AM
> Subject: Re: The West
>
>
> > I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something,
> rather
> > preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law
etc.
> That
> > is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?  Very
> easy,
> > The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army would
be
> > ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we
> would be
> > obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
> >
> > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > Subject:  Re: The West
> >
> >
> >
> > Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The
> Queen
> > is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a
figurehead.
> > I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up against
> the
> > PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War
> Measures
> > Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada to
do
> > something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
> > Subject: RE: The West
> >
> >
> > > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all well
> and
> > > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought our
> > > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> > >
> > > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more that
a
> > > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral authority,
> > that
> > > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa - they
> are
> > > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops overseas -
> > > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <davidwillard@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:02:16 -0400*
Interesting exchange. I can remember when Schreyer was the Gov Gen of Canada
and we had a parliamentary crisis. The Conservatives, then under Joe Who?
refused to sit and the bells continued to ring. During this boondoggle the
nation was essentially without government. Unbeknownst to most people the
Gov Gen was about to dissolve parliament and call an election. Given the
political climate especially in "La Belle Province" the parties got back to
work. Here just the threat of unleashing Regal authority got things back on
track.
The value of ultimate power above partisan politics cannot be loudly enough
stated. While it‘s true we did repat our constitution and are quite capable
of standing on our own two feet, you will notice that clearly stated within
that constitution is the fact that the whole system is based on the monarchy
with it‘s head "The Queen of Canada." Yes, it‘s normally as a figurehead,
but, and it‘s a big BUT, the Queen has the ultimate authority. She is the
Commander in Chief of the armed forces. I personally find this fact rather
reassuring given the ongoing performances of all politicians.
Dave Willard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> An interesting comment, and I must assure you that I take jy oath
seriously.
> But the question still stands.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: The West
>
>
> > I have to believe it would happen in the case where the leaders of the
> nation
> > have lost track of reality and are steering the country on a collision
> course
> > with international law.
> >
> > If I did not believe that the ultimate morale authority was viable and
> would be
> > invoked I would not be in the forces.  It is my safety net, my only
option
> for
> > not committing / being ordered to commit crimes against humanity and the
> only
> > grounds for not obeying an illegal order.
> >
> > As for the oath, I am deeply troubled by a couple of responses from
> members who
> > feel the oath is just a couple of words to be uttered when you sign up.
> There
> > should be nothing more concrete in our system then adherence to our
oath,
> meere
> > words?  maybe, but the foundation of our entire ethos.  Much like what
> keeps a
> > marriage together, I wonder how those who believe oaths are just words
> justify
> > that to their spouses....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/11/2000 05:05:04 PM
> >
> > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > Subject:  Re: The West
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you really believe that would happen the Senate not authorizing the
> > Legislation or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: The West
> >
> >
> > > I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something,
> > rather
> > > preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law
> etc.
> > That
> > > is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?
Very
> > easy,
> > > The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army
would
> be
> > > ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we
> > would be
> > > obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
> > >
> > > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >
> > > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > > Subject:  Re: The West
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The
> > Queen
> > > is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a
> figurehead.
> > > I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up
against
> > the
> > > PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War
> > Measures
> > > Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada
to
> do
> > > something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: RE: The West
> > >
> > >
> > > > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > > > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all
well
> > and
> > > > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought
our
> > > > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> > > >
> > > > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more
that
> a
> > > > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral
authority,
> > > that
> > > > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa -
they
> > are
> > > > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops
overseas -
> > > > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:17:12 -0600*
Well said Dave.  GBTQ.
"dave"  on 10/12/2000 09:02:16 AM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
Interesting exchange. I can remember when Schreyer was the Gov Gen of Canada
and we had a parliamentary crisis. The Conservatives, then under Joe Who?
refused to sit and the bells continued to ring. During this boondoggle the
nation was essentially without government. Unbeknownst to most people the
Gov Gen was about to dissolve parliament and call an election. Given the
political climate especially in "La Belle Province" the parties got back to
work. Here just the threat of unleashing Regal authority got things back on
track.
The value of ultimate power above partisan politics cannot be loudly enough
stated. While it‘s true we did repat our constitution and are quite capable
of standing on our own two feet, you will notice that clearly stated within
that constitution is the fact that the whole system is based on the monarchy
with it‘s head "The Queen of Canada." Yes, it‘s normally as a figurehead,
but, and it‘s a big BUT, the Queen has the ultimate authority. She is the
Commander in Chief of the armed forces. I personally find this fact rather
reassuring given the ongoing performances of all politicians.
Dave Willard
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> An interesting comment, and I must assure you that I take jy oath
seriously.
> But the question still stands.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: The West
>
>
> > I have to believe it would happen in the case where the leaders of the
> nation
> > have lost track of reality and are steering the country on a collision
> course
> > with international law.
> >
> > If I did not believe that the ultimate morale authority was viable and
> would be
> > invoked I would not be in the forces.  It is my safety net, my only
option
> for
> > not committing / being ordered to commit crimes against humanity and the
> only
> > grounds for not obeying an illegal order.
> >
> > As for the oath, I am deeply troubled by a couple of responses from
> members who
> > feel the oath is just a couple of words to be uttered when you sign up.
> There
> > should be nothing more concrete in our system then adherence to our
oath,
> meere
> > words?  maybe, but the foundation of our entire ethos.  Much like what
> keeps a
> > marriage together, I wonder how those who believe oaths are just words
> justify
> > that to their spouses....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/11/2000 05:05:04 PM
> >
> > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > Subject:  Re: The West
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you really believe that would happen the Senate not authorizing the
> > Legislation or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: The West
> >
> >
> > > I do not think it is an issue of the Queen telling us to do something,
> > rather
> > > preventing us from doing something that would breach internation law
> etc.
> > That
> > > is her role, the highest morale authority.  How would she do that?
Very
> > easy,
> > > The senate would not pass non-financial legislation, and the army
would
> be
> > > ordered to stand down,  As our oath is to her, not the politician, we
> > would be
> > > obligied to stand down.  Seems quite simple.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Donald Schepens"  on 10/10/2000 06:06:54 PM
> > >
> > > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >
> > > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> > > Subject:  Re: The West
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Whether you like to believe it or not, this is the "real" truth.  The
> > Queen
> > > is irrelevant to the Canadian Military as anything more than a
> figurehead.
> > > I can think of no circumstance where the Gov-Gen would stand up
against
> > the
> > > PM.  As for the Queen, with all of the talk of Trudeau and the War
> > Measures
> > > Act what would be the Canadian reaction to the Queen telling Canada
to
> do
> > > something like DeGaulle in Quebec?
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Derrick Forsythe 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:49 AM
> > > Subject: RE: The West
> > >
> > >
> > > > Command authority extends no further than the PMO - nor should it -
> > > > prattling on about moral authority resting with the Queen is all
well
> > and
> > > > good, but it‘s the 21st century and last time I checked we brought
our
> > > > Constitution home and are standing on our two feet thanks very much.
> > > >
> > > > The Queen and her representative here in Canada should be no more
that
> a
> > > > figurehead - a link to our past - but as for ultimate moral
authority,
> > > that
> > > > has to rest with the elected representatives sitting in Ottawa -
they
> > are
> > > > the ones afterall, signing the orders deploying our troops
overseas -
> > > > shoveling snow - fighting forest fires etc, etc, etc,
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <davidwillard@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:14:09 -0400*
But then there was LLoyd Axworthy the naive dove of the west. He believes if
we as Canadians just act like nice guys the rest of the world will follow
suit and no one would need soldiers or armies. Why he never joined the NDP
beats me. But alas, there is a God, LLoyd is leaving politics Without a
Nobel Peace Prize and will now try to teach his ostrich-like ways Bury his
head in the sand to university students. You‘re right in your description
Mike. Perhaps we could throw in the idea of Canada being a masochist society
when it comes to it‘s treatment of it‘s military.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: The West
> I don‘t think persecution is an apt descriptor, for that implies an overt
> intention to destroy or restrict. Inadvertent neglect through the higher
> prioritization of other social needs is, perhaps, a better description.
Then
> again, care and feeding of the military has never been a peacetime hobby
of
> Canadian governments.
>
> Mike
>
> The Regimental Rogue
> 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael McDermott 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 5:39 PM
> Subject: RE: The West
>
>
> > Is it just me, or do
> > most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel persecuted
> > from time to time as a result of failures within the
> > political system?
> >
> > mike
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:40:59 -0700*
How prey tell do we do that?
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## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:50:21 -0700*
The centralizing of manufacturing in central canada, has more to do with
geography than politics.  It was american companies, wanting access to
British Empire markets, that established factories along the U.S./Canada
border.  It was never an "Policy" of our gorvernment to locate private
corporations anywhere.  The agricultural base of the Praries was also due to
private companies sponsoring imigration to that area.  There is nothing
stopping corporations from openning up factories in outlying areas, except
good old economics.
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## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:01:47 -0700*
By what method does she "exert" her legal authority.  Is this oath as
binding as the one that is taken at a marraige ceremony.  Please define
"moral "authority.
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## army

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:39:18 -0600*
What you say sounds good, except that 
a stated government policy and what governments actually do/promote
are not always the same. The mere fact that high tariff walls protected
central manufacturers at the expense of the Western buyers, and until
Dief came along "why should I sell your wheat" was a reality actually,
PET was quoted out of context to be fair, he was asking a rhetorical
question he went on to explain why he should and was selling Western
grains.
b more important: traditionally, freight rates made it more economical
to ship raw product to Central Canada than to process the goods in the
West and ship finished product eastward. Again, Gawd Damn the CPR
actually, rail rates have and still are permitted to be set by an
official oligopolistic board created and staffed only by CN and CP by
and large not talking about the old Crow rates. Oh, well, at least
"Super B Trains" truck are often competitive with rail on many long
hauls. One could make a similar case for petroleum feedstocks, but,
well, we‘re getting far off the army focus.
dave wrote:
> 
> The centralizing of manufacturing in central canada, has more to do with
> geography than politics.  It was american companies, wanting access to
> British Empire markets, that established factories along the U.S./Canada
> border.  It was never an "Policy" of our gorvernment to locate private
> corporations anywhere.  The agricultural base of the Praries was also due to
> private companies sponsoring imigration to that area.  There is nothing
> stopping corporations from openning up factories in outlying areas, except
> good old economics.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:05:50 -0400*
Well Said!
I agree entirely!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: The West
> Re: the comments on Senate reform below.
>
> While fairer regional representation and greater effectiveness would be
two
> very desireable things for our august Senate, I‘m not so sure about the
> elected bit. Once you start electing Senators, all you have is another
bunch
> of pols fixated on short-term gain and their own re-electability who will
be
> susceptible to all the same vanities, foolishness and corruption that
plague
> the Commons.
>
> The idea of an unelected Senate as with the Brit House of Lords that was
> is that there are members of the "elites" in our society who are willing
and
> able to take responsiblity for the country‘s *long-term* well-being and to
> put the national interest ahead of partisan bickering OK, so we don‘t
> always do so well on that one under our current system! and playing to
the
> press gallery.
>
> While the idea that we might actually need some sort of enlightened - and
> unelected - elite looking out for us by, for instance, providing "sober
> second thought" on deployment of the military, is an uncomfortable one in
a
> society as fixated on the democratic ideal as ours, I have yet to be
> persuaded that Canada would benefit from following the US example of
having
> *two* houses of greedy, elected nincompoops passing judgment on the
nation‘s
> laws and policies. One is, it seems to me, quite enough.
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: The West
> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 17:00:41 -0600
>
> Hey, leave me out of this.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:27 AM
> Subject: RE: The West
>
>
>  > You never played well with the other kids when you were young right?
> Just
> a
>  > guess... heh heh
>  >
>  > to respond, yes that specific time limitation is FOREVER so out to you
on
> that
>  > one,,,,, The reform of the senate would be a welcome change that is for
> sure.
>  > However, the intent of the senate remains the same, from a higher
> authority to
>  > stop power crazy politicians from doing acts against the law
> international and
>  > to ensure that the people are not lead down the garden path.  As for
your
> blow
>  > and suck comment, I assume that your are aware that it is ok now in
your
> armed
>  > forces to do that so unless you are commenting from personal
experience,
> I
> would
>  > appreciate leaving any sexual reference out of the discussion group
> thanks.....
>  > unless it involves Steve Kervers butt kissing to the CO of Svc Btn.
heh
> heh heh
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Derrick Forsythe  on 10/11/2000 11:07:52 AM
>  >
>  > Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>  >
>  > To:   "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>  > cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
>  > Subject:  RE: The West
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Nice try my friend, but you forget two important factors:
>  >
>  > 1. There are specific limitations on how long the Senate can stall
>  > legislation
>  >
>  > 2. There‘s a certain political partty I beleive you‘re somewhat
> acquianted
>  > with who would be leading the charge if an unelected, unequal Senate
were
> to
>  > hold the country hostage.
>  >
>  > Full marks for learning that all important political skill of sucking
and
>  > blowing at the same time - you should run for office -
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>  > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>  > message body.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>  > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>  > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>  http://profiles.msn.com. 
>
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----------



## army

Posted by *Troy.Steele@cnpl.enbridge.com* on *Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:13:10 -0600*
She is able to exert her authority through the Gov. General and the Senate.  She
is able to stop any non financial bill from becoming law, able to disolve
parliment, and since she is the commander in chief of the armed forces it seems
pretty clear where the "real" orders would come from during a time of conflict.
The term ultimate moral authority" comes from the post that every country has a
top level of authority that is charged with keeping the military in line with
international law, global conventions and decisions from the Hauge.  sp   For
us this is the Queen thank goodness.  GBTQ
"dave"  on 10/12/2000 05:01:47 PM
Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
Subject:  Re: The West
By what method does she "exert" her legal authority.  Is this oath as
binding as the one that is taken at a marraige ceremony.  Please define
"moral "authority.
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <davidwillard@home.com>* on *Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:22:01 -0400*
Looks like there are still some of us around. Hear! Hear!
"God Save the Queen"
Dave Willard
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> She is able to exert her authority through the Gov. General and the
Senate.  She
> is able to stop any non financial bill from becoming law, able to disolve
> parliment, and since she is the commander in chief of the armed forces it
seems
> pretty clear where the "real" orders would come from during a time of
conflict.
>
> The term ultimate moral authority" comes from the post that every country
has a
> top level of authority that is charged with keeping the military in line
with
> international law, global conventions and decisions from the Hauge.  sp
For
> us this is the Queen thank goodness.  GBTQ
>
>
>
>
> "dave"  on 10/12/2000 05:01:47 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> By what method does she "exert" her legal authority.  Is this oath as
> binding as the one that is taken at a marraige ceremony.  Please define
> "moral "authority.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:52:40 -0700 (PDT)*
Whew!  That‘s a load of my shoulders.  Logisitical Snafus
ARE an international dilemna!
mike 
--- Mike Oleary  wrote:
> I don‘t think persecution is an apt descriptor, for that
> implies an overt
> intention to destroy or restrict. Inadvertent neglect
> through the higher
> prioritization of other social needs is, perhaps, a
> better description. Then
> again, care and feeding of the military has never been a
> peacetime hobby of
> Canadian governments.
> 
> Mike
> 
> The Regimental Rogue
> 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael McDermott 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 5:39 PM
> Subject: RE: The West
> 
> 
> > Is it just me, or do
> > most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel
> persecuted
> > from time to time as a result of failures within the
> > political system?
> >
> > mike
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
__________________________________________________
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 http://im.yahoo.com/ 
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----------



## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:01:01 -0700 (PDT)*
Ian,
True, there is a fine line between love and hate re: the
military-civilian, but I don‘t believe convincing the
populace of the tragic state of the military UNION is a bad
thing.  
On a seperate note, reading Starship Troopers by Robert
Heinlein can offer an older perspective in a new light did
that make any sense?.
mike
--- Ian Edwards  wrote:
> On the contrary: politics is the art of the possible
> PolySci 101, first
> day‘s lecture notes.
> 
> A political role for the military smells like a junta in
> the making. One
> soldier talking to one civilian at a time is different.
> And that‘s what
> we must do, convince one civy at a time, that our foreign
> policy is
> wrong and that our military is there to carry out some of
> the polices of
> our foreign policy. Lloyd Axworthy, our Foreign Minister,
> is about to
> leave lets hope he doesn‘t pass on his rose tinted
> glasses. O‘Leary
> said it well a few days ago, we must ensure that we don‘t
> look for an
> increased military budget/strength just because it either
> boosts our own
> ego or our own self interests hope I‘m not putting words
> in your mouth
> Mike O‘L.
> 
> Michael McDermott wrote:
> > 
> > I find it interesting that by definition, politics is
> the
> > study of group dynamics beyond the family level.  In
> > conjunction with that, it‘s easier to imagine a
> political
> > role for the military.  That notion already exists, but
> it
> > isn‘t very clear for most people.  Is it just me, or do
> > most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel
> persecuted
> > from time to time as a result of failures within the
> > political system?
> > 
> > mike
> > 
> > --- Derrick Forsythe 
> wrote:
> > >       Short answer:
> > >
> > >       you don‘t
> > >
> > >
> > > > How do we separate the Military from politics in
> this
> > > country.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > > message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > > wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > > message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > > wish
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> > >
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> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
> anywhere!
> >  http://mail.yahoo.com/ 
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *Michael McDermott <apache501@yahoo.com>* on *Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:53:00 -0700 (PDT)*
Wow, for a second, i thought he said she excreted
authority.  That would be pretty disgusting...
mike
--- dave  wrote:
> By what method does she "exert" her legal authority.  Is
> this oath as
> binding as the one that is taken at a marraige ceremony. 
> Please define
> "moral "authority.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:49:06 -0600*
I understand what you are saying.  do you think it would ever actually
"really" happen if the government wanted to prevent it.  We‘d be a republic
tomorrow.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> She is able to exert her authority through the Gov. General and the
Senate.  She
> is able to stop any non financial bill from becoming law, able to disolve
> parliment, and since she is the commander in chief of the armed forces it
seems
> pretty clear where the "real" orders would come from during a time of
conflict.
>
> The term ultimate moral authority" comes from the post that every country
has a
> top level of authority that is charged with keeping the military in line
with
> international law, global conventions and decisions from the Hauge.  sp
For
> us this is the Queen thank goodness.  GBTQ
>
>
>
>
> "dave"  on 10/12/2000 05:01:47 PM
>
> Please respond to army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>
> To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> cc:    bcc: Troy Steele/IPL
> Subject:  Re: The West
>
>
>
> By what method does she "exert" her legal authority.  Is this oath as
> binding as the one that is taken at a marraige ceremony.  Please define
> "moral "authority.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:02:22 -0600*
Just jumping into the middle of this, Starship Troopers makes a lot of
sense.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael McDermott 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: The West
> Ian,
> True, there is a fine line between love and hate re: the
> military-civilian, but I don‘t believe convincing the
> populace of the tragic state of the military UNION is a bad
> thing.
> On a seperate note, reading Starship Troopers by Robert
> Heinlein can offer an older perspective in a new light did
> that make any sense?.
>
> mike
>
>
> --- Ian Edwards  wrote:
> > On the contrary: politics is the art of the possible
> > PolySci 101, first
> > day‘s lecture notes.
> >
> > A political role for the military smells like a junta in
> > the making. One
> > soldier talking to one civilian at a time is different.
> > And that‘s what
> > we must do, convince one civy at a time, that our foreign
> > policy is
> > wrong and that our military is there to carry out some of
> > the polices of
> > our foreign policy. Lloyd Axworthy, our Foreign Minister,
> > is about to
> > leave lets hope he doesn‘t pass on his rose tinted
> > glasses. O‘Leary
> > said it well a few days ago, we must ensure that we don‘t
> > look for an
> > increased military budget/strength just because it either
> > boosts our own
> > ego or our own self interests hope I‘m not putting words
> > in your mouth
> > Mike O‘L.
> >
> > Michael McDermott wrote:
> > >
> > > I find it interesting that by definition, politics is
> > the
> > > study of group dynamics beyond the family level.  In
> > > conjunction with that, it‘s easier to imagine a
> > political
> > > role for the military.  That notion already exists, but
> > it
> > > isn‘t very clear for most people.  Is it just me, or do
> > > most members of the Canadian Armed Forces feel
> > persecuted
> > > from time to time as a result of failures within the
> > > political system?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > --- Derrick Forsythe 
> > wrote:
> > > >       Short answer:
> > > >
> > > >       you don‘t
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > How do we separate the Military from politics in
> > this
> > > > country.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > > > message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > > > wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > > > message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > > > wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from
> > anywhere!
> > >  http://mail.yahoo.com/ 
> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a
> > message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you
> > wish
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