# TF-08 Bison Drivers



## HCA

Well it has finally happened.  We have asked for it for the last decade and 1 HSG came through.  We have 3 Medics (2 others on standby)  going off on the 15th of Jan to start the Bison training for Afghanistan.  Now we just need to follow through on what we have asked for and make sure our 3 represent the unit and the medical reserve well.  Talk about pressure.  

Gotta say 1HSG has really been doing a fine job of looking out for Reserve interests so far.


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## Franko

Let me get this straight....

They are getting medics to drive and CC Bisons?

Regards


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## aesop081

HSO said:
			
		

> looking out for Reserve interests so far.



Empire building at its best..........How about looking out for the *CF*s interests !


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## MED_BCMC

HSO said:
			
		

> Well it has finally happened.  We have asked for it for the last decade and 1 HSG came through.  We have 3 Medics (2 others on standby)  going off on the 15th of Jan to start the Bison training for Afghanistan.  Now we just need to follow through on what we have asked for and make sure our 3 represent the unit and the medical reserve well.  Talk about pressure.
> 
> Gotta say 1HSG has really been doing a fine job of looking out for Reserve interests so far.



I'm sure that I have a few pers in my unit that would be interested in this training and the subsquent deployments. Are there other positions avail, or was it just the 3? This is the first I've seen of this being offered to Reserve Medics in a long time. 

Thanks,
BCM


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## geo

Hmmm.... wouldn't if be better to train the medics as medics so they can be used as medics ........ instead of using em as bus drivers / mechanics / etc...........


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## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... wouldn't if be better to train the medics as medics so they can be used as medics ........ instead of using em as bus drivers / mechanics / etc...........



My point exactly.  I have no doubt of the ability of thse individulas to serve in Afghanistan.  But i question the motivation behind employing them as drivers.  Is this in the CFs best interest or is this a case of the HS reserves trying to snag a part of the action just to say it did ? If those guys are medics, shouldnt  1HSG seek employement as medics for these people ?


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## geo

Reservists?.... even a Reg medic can be better used as a medic than as a driver.... but that's just me 8)


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## MED_BCMC

These folks are the ones that do not have the PCP Course (Reg F QL3). Without Reg F QL3, Res F medics cannot deploy as medics, and as a Senior HS Officer so gracefully put a few years ago, are "nothing more than glorified ambulance drivers".



			
				cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Is this in the CFs best interest or is this a case of the HS reserves trying to snag a part of the action just to say it did ? If those guys are medics, shouldnt  1HSG seek employement as medics for these people ?


This is the Reserve Force member trying to make sure they are useful.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

A rhetorical question:  if you have SQ qualified soldiers awaiting training as medics, but who don't have a course, what's the better course of action - give them a relatively short driver's course or let them wait until they're trained and deployable as medics?

Stop second guessing when you don't have all the facts.


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## geo

(breaking up their trade course and train them to QL5 (TQ level for DP2))


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## Trinity

Think about it

Medics that drive Bisons.

You have the medic who works in the back... and you
have a second person medic trained to assist (the driver)

You double your man power for medics.  Better to have
the driver a medic (even if not reg force standard) because
a reserve medic still has significantly more medic training and
experience with the equipment (I know, I've trained enough Res Medics)
than the infantry or others.

This is a win / win situation for the army.  The army gets more
people who drive and can serve, the wounded get more medics 
on the field.


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## Gunner98

Trinity said:
			
		

> Think about it
> 
> Medics that drive Bisons.
> 
> You have the medic who works in the back... and you
> have a second person medic trained to assist (the driver)
> 
> You double your man power for medics.  Better to have
> the driver a medic (even if not reg force standard) because
> a reserve medic still has significantly more medic training and
> experience with the equipment (I know, I've trained enough Res Medics)
> than the infantry or others.
> 
> This is a win / win situation for the army.  The army gets more
> people who drive and can serve, the wounded get more medics
> on the field.



IMHO - just because the TO&E position says 'Bison Driver' that Res Medic could end up doing KP or digging D&S trenches once in theatre.  It is not the qualification it is the soldier that does the task.  I have trained Reg Force QL3 Med Techs as Bison Driver who deployed for 6 months to KAF and never stepped into a Bison once.

IMHO - in a war zone I want a Bison driver who has a little experience and not just off his driver's course.

IMHO - going to a war zone to say you went does not mean guarantee you or your mates are coming back
alive.

A little knowledge is dangerous - drivers drive; Medics treat the injured and sick.  If the driver is a Medic which is skill is more important - think carefully, your life may depend on it -  whether you are a crew member or a casualties enroute to life-saving care.


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## MED_BCMC

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> A little knowledge is dangerous - drivers drive; Medics treat the injured and sick.  If the driver is a Medic which is skill is more important - think carefully, your life may depend on it -  whether you are a crew member or a casualties enroute to life-saving care.



Very true, but the Reserve Force medics in question CANNOT serve as medics in theatre, because they do not have the minimum required qualifications (PCP - Reg F QL3). It's not a matter of mis-employing a medic as a driver, it's a matter of employing a willing reservist. The individual soldier's motivations for deployment are for a different thread at a different time.


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## Trinity

Gunner

In principle  I agree with you.

I would love to have people who are fully trained in their specific
role FILLING those roles.

Sadly... with the squeeze we are placing upon troops the military is
going to explore every option possible.  Right now it's 5 reservist.
This is most likely an test by the system to see if this is one of the
many ways to help fill roles by the reserve.  I'm also sure it won't
simply be a drivers course and then being sent into theatre. There
would have to be a 6 month work up minimum.  

Is it an ideal situation.. no.  Will it work.. probably.


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## Gunner98

"It's not a matter of mis-employing a medic as a driver, it's a matter of employing a willing reservist. The individual soldier's motivations for deployment are for a different thread at a different time."

 ;D Is that a let's take this outside - to another thread I hear. 

It is nice to say "employ a willing Reservist", if he is so willing to serve and die for his country perhaps he should join an Infantry Reserve unit or a Transport Unit, otherwise he should wait his turn to face the music when he can be fully employable as a Medic.

Edit: Smileys added to designate humor!


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## MED_BCMC

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> It is nice to say "employ a willing Reservist", if he is so willing to serve and die for his country perhaps he should join an Infantry Reserve unit or a Transport Unit, otherwise he should wait his turn to face the music when he can be fully employable as a Medic.



Agreed, but until such time as Res F medics receive the same training as our Regular Force counterparts, I see no reason why a medic can't fill other "non-medic medical" (Amb Driver) type positions. Also, if the medic in question is slated to drive a Bison Amb (and actually does end up driving a Bison Amb), then he/she will be picking up some skills via OJT. 

Also: No intent to "take this outside", but the member's motivations for deployment would be the same as any reservist seeking deployment.  

Edit for Clarity


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## Franko

Trinity said:
			
		

> Think about it
> 
> Medics that drive Bisons.
> 
> You have the medic who works in the back... and you
> have a second person medic trained to assist (the driver)



Ummm no. The driver drives the vehicle period. Doesn't matter what trade they are...even if they are a medic.

If that call sign comes under attack and said medic is helping treat the wounded instead of in their hole ready to punch....well you can put the rest together.

Same as the crew commander....he's not going to help in the back when the vehicle is under way either. Air sentries have their job as well.

The crew must work together to ensure a safe extraction, from pickup to drop off. Close protection remember.

Medics in the back (hopefully 2 _at least_) have to do the dirty work until the evac is complete, then the crew can help....at the field hosp.

Now I know that the amb drivers for roto 1 Archer were black hatters.....don't tell me that they can't find someone from any other trade besides the medical branch to do the job.

My 2 duram worth.....

Regards


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## Gunner98

One round left in my magazine for today.  :threat:

Let's be clear, even the Bison Ambulances now travel outside the wire with Red Crosses turned in and C-6 MG mounted, loaded and ready to defend.  

I wish them (willing Reservists of any variety) well, hope they enjoy the ride.  The TO&Es have vacancies so let's get them filled.  It would defintely be invaluable experience for their future endeavors.


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## Trinity

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Ummm no. The driver drives the vehicle period. Doesn't matter what trade they are...even if they are a medic.



If so.. then the entire idea of employing medics in bison ambs.. is stupid.
Might as well employ any trade in that position, not just medics.

Then the question to be asked and verified is are we employing res medics
in this role because of their extra medical knowledge or not.... guess the
original Major who posted would have more info.


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## Gunner98

Trinity - I just love your thinking process -"wait their reasoning makes sense, as the light bulb grows slowly brighter".

From 
"Gunner
In principle  I agree with you."

A little brighter now...

"If so.. then the entire idea of employing medics in bison ambs.. is stupid."

Tracking... target identified...Engage...right to the point.  Attaboy!! :warstory:


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## Trinity

It's two sides of a coin

if employing a medic in a bison amb is to allow them to also treat
casualties...  it's a great idea.

if, as it has been said, they wouldn't be allowed to do anything else
but drive...  then wtf  :

I was a medic for 10 years... and begged for my bison quals because that
was exactly what I wanted to do..  drive and be able to provide extra skills.
I was told I could get a tour for Bosnia if I could drive and have extra usefull skills.  

I'm assuming that is the intent of what they're thinking here.  (seemed like it from the first post)

But as its been stated, if the driver isn't allowed to assist... then this idea is a waste of time.


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## Fishbone Jones

I'm still trying to figure out why we're spending money and time to train and send brand new inexperienced CC's and drivers to a theater of war, when we have a large pool of TRAINED & EXPERIENCED, black hat Reservist CC's and drivers, ready and willing to go.

As a matter of fact, the experts in echelon movement are the Armoured Corp. The bison ambs within that org are CC'd by a crewman MCpl and the driver is a crewman Cpl/ Tpr. The Medic sits in the back to give his undivided attention to the casualties. It's tried and proven, there's no need to change it.


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## Trinity

Medic do need to be able to drive *SOME *of their vehicles... maybe not Bison

An ambulance crew LSVW is crewed by 2...  both medics. Someone has to drive  ;D

Both medics work on the casualty and then load up.. and someone drives and someone
tends to the cas.

I'm left to assume they're trying to apply this to the Bison.
But as discussed.. we know the issues about this.


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## Fishbone Jones

Trinity said:
			
		

> Medic do need to be able to drive *SOME *of their vehicles... maybe not Bison
> 
> An ambulance crew LSVW is crewed by 2...  both medics. Someone has to drive  ;D
> 
> Both medics work on the casualty and then load up.. and someone drives and someone
> tends to the cas.
> 
> I'm left to assume they're trying to apply this to the Bison.
> But as discussed.. we know the issues about this.



OK, let's quit being the devil's advocate and move our thinking into THE REAL WORLD! There's won't be any LSVW ambs outside the wire. Let's stick to what we know and are trained to know. Not touchy feely, everyone get along BS.


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## medic269

It seems like another one of those situations that looks good on paper but in reality could've been thought through better, like Communism   Looking at it from one end, it's a good way to extend the scope of training and skills for Res medics and get some real experience under their belts, and at the same time puts them to work.  Then the other end is what everyone else has been saying, what happens to the P. Res Combat Arms guys who are now out of a job?  It'll be interesting to see how it pieces together once all said and done.  Anyone know if this is a permanent change or an attempt to phase in more medics on the Bisons?  I can't see when the extra medical skills will come in handy when your pounding of C6 rounds on the move.  God forbid someone else gets hit and you need another helping hand, you won't be able to take a gunner or driver off to help out.

Edited for spelling.


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## Trinity

There is nothing wrong with that example.

It would apply in other situations... otherwise WHY do we train for it.

I was simply pointing out, contrary to what 105 said.. there IS a need
for medics to drive their own vehicles in designated situations.

You call that semantics.. I call that army doctrine.

I've already accepted that bison amb drivers if not allowed to
do anything else but drive.. is a stupid idea.


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## George Wallace

I don't think this could have been said any better.  Each has their job to do, and must be proficient in doing their job.  Although it is great that some Medics are getting on a D&M Course, I do not expect them to be slotted on Tour as Drivers.  That would only come back to bite us in the ass.  A medic cannot drive, and attend to casualties at the same time in combat.


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## Fishbone Jones

Trinity said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with that example.
> 
> It would apply in other situations... otherwise WHY do we train for it.
> 
> I was simply pointing out, contrary to what 105 said.. there IS a need
> for medics to drive their own vehicles in designated situations.
> 
> You call that semantics.. I call that army doctrine.
> 
> I've already accepted that bison amb drivers if not allowed to
> do anything else but drive.. is a stupid idea.



We're talking about tours here. Not CAC. A place where lives depend on the training, and skills,  of the crews. There is NO place for a Medic in the CC or driver's hatch of a Bison Amb. If they want that training, they can remuster. Give them the training they're required to have in order to save lives. We'll try and ensure they get there and back, with their charges, safely. If you want to talk about LSVW amb crews in a Utopian setting, start another thread. This one pertains to Operations.


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## Trinity

Yes...

I'm a former medic...  who agrees with the idea
of a black hat driving a bison amb.

See, there must be a god if even I can see the light ;D


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## ModlrMike

If Res medics are in driver positions it is because the Army gave those positions away. Up to TF1-08, they were "Black Hat" positions, but with the tank and other armd tasks, they probably can't do the amb tasking. Ask the army why the medics are driving, don't ask the medics why the army isn't.


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## Fishbone Jones

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> If Res medics are in driver positions it is because the Army gave those positions away. Up to TF1-08, they were "Black Hat" positions, but with the tank and other armd tasks, they probably can't do the amb tasking. Ask the army why the medics are driving, don't ask the medics why the army isn't.



This is not necessarily true. People have become very proficient as of late, building empires. As far as the Armoured not being able to fill positions, due to current taskings, there's lots of qualified black hat  Reservists chomping at the bit to go on tour right now.


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## ModlrMike

recceguy said:
			
		

> This is not necessarily true. People have become very proficient as of late, building empires. As far as the Armoured not being able to fill positions, due to current taskings, there's lots of qualified black hat  Reservists chomping at the bit to go on tour right now.



While I agree that there are plenty of Res Armd available, what I intended to say was that the Army may have given those positions away. I'm talking strictly about position sourcing, not who is best qual for the job.


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## Armymedic

Gee here we go again. Medics driving their own ambs in not a new discussion. The ONLY reason medics don't drive the Bisons overseas now is that there is not enough of the to do the job (not just not enough qualified but not enough of them). The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops. Not a single statement above gives me a good reason why a medic can not drive a Bison in Afghanistan.

Being a former black hat myself, I chuckle heartedly every time I hear one saying that the ONLY people who can drive and command an armoured veh is a Armoured soldier. Too bad this is just not true and hasn't been for quite some time.

3 short yrs ago, Reg force QL 3s could not serve overseas. If one did go over, it was the exception. To get these young, keen soldiers some deployment experience, we would qualify a few as drivers and have them fill those roles in the UMS and HSS. Now we have them in the back of each and every Bison Amb in theater.

Every Amb Coy of each Reg F Fd Amb is supposed to have (IIRC) 10 Bisons ambulances, manned completely by Med Techs.

Currently there are no roles for reserve medics in HSS. Learning to drive a Bison amb sounds like a damn fine place for them to be.

ps- I don't go around saying where cbt arms soilders would be better employed (What, not enough CIMIC AND HUMINT jobs to go around?), so why do you all feel so comfortable talking about my capbadges employment?


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## George Wallace

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Gee here we go again. Medics driving their own ambs in not a new discussion. The ONLY reason medics don't drive the Bisons overseas now is that there is not enough of the to do the job (not just not enough qualified but not enough of them). The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops. Not a single statement above gives me a good reason why a medic can not drive a Bison in Afghanistan.



Frankly, that is not what this discussion has turned into.  No one here really gives a damn who drives, as long as it isn't a Medic who should be in the back doing "THEIR JOB".  

I don't care what you do in Petawawa with 'notional casualties' in training with no one shooting at you.  I do care who is driving in Theatre, when there are REAL casualties in the back.


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## Armymedic

I am sick and grouchy tonight....so all thoughts going thru my head are nasty. I will reply tomorrow


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## Gunner98

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Gee here we go again...
> Every Amb Coy of each Reg F Fd Amb is supposed to have (IIRC) 10 Bisons ambulances, manned completely by Med Techs...The initial tour to Kabul, ISAF Roto 0 even had 6 medics on the TO&E as drivers. 2 Fd Amb did not have enough, so they gave those positions to MSE Ops.
> 
> ps- I don't go around saying where cbt arms soilders (sic) would be better employed (What, not enough CIMIC AND HUMINT jobs to go around?), so why do you all feel so comfortable talking about* my capbadges (sic) employment*?



St. Mike:

Get off your pedestal, it is a capbadge that I wear as well it is not just yours.  So you think a QL3 Med Tech should be riding in the back of a Bison amb - I agree.  When they start going out on patrols as the only Medic I get concerned, as should you.  The adults don't really understand the risk involved and are not aware that the CF has/had QL3 Med Techs on deployments... until recently anyways.

The Fd Ambs may have 10 Bison in each Amb Coy on the books, but please share with everyone else, how many you do really have, hmm?

The Field Hosp has 5 Bison in the Evac Coy/Pl on the books, as well and it has none in reality.


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## Armymedic

Gunner98, 
You've been away for so long...I forgot who you were.  

as for my pedestal:


			
				St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> I am sick and grouchy tonight....so all thoughts going thru my head are nasty. I will reply tomorrow



And I will reread the entire thread again when I am not sneezing my brains out.


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## Gunner98

St. Mike,

Not away, just lurking and smirking.  :


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## MED_BCMC

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> St. Mike:
> 
> Get off your pedestal, it is a capbadge that I wear as well it is not just yours.  So you think a QL3 Med Tech should be riding in the back of a Bison amb - I agree.  When they start going out on patrols as the only Medic I get concerned, as should you.  The adults don't really understand the risk involved and are not aware that the CF has/had QL3 Med Techs on deployments... until recently anyways.



Ok... I understand the fact that yes, a Medic would be much better employed in the back of the ambulance, but if I can refresh everyone's memories for just a moment, this discussion started with having RESERVE medics taking their bison course. So as much as they would be better employed in the back of the ambulance, RESERVE Medics that haven't taken their PCP cannot serve in the back of the ambulance as they are not qualified.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Frankly, that is not what this discussion has turned into.  No one here really gives a damn who drives, as long as it isn't a Medic who should be in the back doing "THEIR JOB".


Agreed, but for the member to be able to do "THEIR JOB", they must be qualified. 

Edited for grammar.


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## geo

Med BMCM... as you stated, Res Medics who do not have their PCP can't work in the back....
Can you please extrapolate as to why, in pre-predeployment trg, same said medics can't get their qualification on the Reg force's nickle?
Can't the PCP be broken down into modules to make em shorter but the sum of all being equal to the whole.

The same way as I can use an untrained soldier in a GD position, I have no problem employing em in "other" tasks if I am in deep need and there is no one else but, would think that training em up to PCP standard would be a better alternative.

:warstory: Just my view from the trenches.  :warstory:


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## MED_BCMC

geo said:
			
		

> Med BMCM... as you stated, Res Medics who do not have their PCP can't work in the back....
> Can you please extrapolate as to why, in pre-predeployment trg, same said medics can't get their qualification on the Reg force's nickle?
> Can't the PCP be broken down into modules to make em shorter but the sum of all being equal to the whole.
> 
> The same way as I can use an untrained soldier in a GD position, I have no problem employing em in "other" tasks if I am in deep need and there is no one else but, would think that training em up to PCP standard would be a better alternative.
> 
> :warstory: Just my view from the trenches.  :warstory:



I'll do my best. 
There was a plan discussed a little while ago, that would take a Reserve Force Medic, put them on a PCP course, send them on deployment and use them to instruct afterwards. (A Class C contract for 3 years). That plan didn't end up coming into effect because.... ? I don't know why actually. This problem is being thought about at the highest level within the Reserve Force Advisor Shop, but I don't think there has been any developments yet. 

The PCP courses being offered to reservists (as part of the new PCP initiative) are being run by a civilian training institutions and cannot be broken down into modules.


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## geo

Uhhh... how long is the PCP course?


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## medic269

Which one? If you look in Ontario it's 2 years.  JIBC I believe has it down to 4 months for the Reg force now.  Different courses have different "added" content which will shorten or lengthen the course. Another factor is the amount of preceptorship required to complete the course.


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## geo

.... well... what does it take to train a reserve medic to a level where he is employable on deployment?

1 month, 12 months, 24 months? 

The CME took a decision that reservists would take the very same course QL3 & QL5 as their Reg force counterpart.... Reservists stating in 2006 have had their DP1 (QL3) course stretched out over two summers..... 

What has the medical branch been doing?

Employing Medics as bus drivers isn't my idea of creative employment of a scarce resource (but that's just me).


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## ModlrMike

Let's put this in real terms. On average, the RegF MedTech has 2.5 to 3 years full time experience, which includes PCP, Comms, driver, and any number of BTLS etc type courses, and clinical experience before they deploy. It would therefore be only prudent to ensure that our ResF brethren have an equivalent amount of training and experience behind them before they deploy. The end goal is the same... it's lives at stake if we make a mistake and rush MedTechs into battle regardless of which component they serve in.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105

x


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## Roy Harding

+1

For the record - I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm a retired CSS WOG.


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## Armymedic

I should know better than to post when I am tired, sick and under the effects of mulitple medications.

Perhaps I am slightly out of my lane IRT CC AFVs as I did not complete an Armour 6A or Ph3...I am aware of what I do not know. What I do know though is if you are a "fighting" a Bison Amb regardless of your MOC, then it is a very bad day for everyone except the enemy. But we are not talking about crew commanding...but drivers (and I apologize for my post last night if I pulled it in that way). 

For drivers of Bison ambulances on deployments.

I believe that the use of Res F medics who are not PCP qualified as bison drivers is a good use of a resource that previously has not been employed overseas. Our TFs are hurting for pers, and Res F medics are hurting for employment opportunities overseas. Sounds like a good plan to me. It is a workable plan.  And the bonus is that these less experienced Res F medics can watch and learn from thier more experienced Reg F peers.


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## Bigmac

St Michael's you and I have worked together before but I do not necessarily agree with you on this topic. I believe the drivers of the bison ambs should have good solid driving experience ie certain amount qualifying hours driving a bison before being deployed into a driver position overseas. The driver must be capable of quickly interpreting CC directions and be able to competently employ evasive manouvers when required. You and I both know that the Res Med techs getting basic Bison driver course do not fit into this category.
       Wouldn't you rather have a bison driver who knows the vehicle inside and out and has hundreds of hours of driving experience? When we went to Bosnia you qualified a few medics as bison drivers. Did you feel totally confident in their skills for deployment to theatre of operations? Be honest.


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## tank recce

[quote/] Saith St. Micheal's Medical Team:

I should know better than to post when I am tired, sick and under the effects of mulitple medications.

Perhaps I am slightly out of my lane IRT CC AFVs as I did not complete an Armour 6A or Ph3...I am aware of what I do not know. What I do know though is if you are a "fighting" a Bison Amb regardless of your MOC, then it is a very bad day for everyone except the enemy. But we are not talking about crew commanding...but drivers (and I apologize for my post last night if I pulled it in that way). 

For drivers of Bison ambulances on deployments.

I believe that the use of Res F medics who are not PCP qualified as bison drivers is a good use of a resource that previously has not been employed overseas. Our TFs are hurting for pers, and Res F medics are hurting for employment opportunities overseas. Sounds like a good plan to me. It is a workable plan.  And the bonus is that these less experienced Res F medics can watch and learn from thier more experienced Reg F peers.
[/quote]

As a Bison/Cougar pusher with many years in both hatches:

First, your ResMedA is going to get SFA OJT on a live patient. When you're in the front hatch, you are aware of NOTHING going on in the trunk behind you. Your keen learner will get more experience at the aid station back at the FOB.

Second (Mods chop this if it violates OpSec)

YMMV


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## Franko

tank recce said:
			
		

> Second (Mods chop this if it violates OpSec)



You're out of date.....and we'll leave it at that.         

Regards


*MOD Note: Any discussions on tactical deployment/ SOPs being used in theater will not be tollerated. You have been warned.*


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## HCA

Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion.  

To clarify.  
1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.
2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure.  
3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year.  
4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.
5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.

Guess I should check my posts a little more often to keep them on track.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

HSO said:
			
		

> Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion.
> 
> To clarify.
> 
> 1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.



Exactly.  If there are any LFWA crewmen lurking out there wanting to Bison drive, they'd better step up now.  There's no shortage of positions.



> 2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure.



+1  Who said medics would be crew commanding?



> 3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year.



And that's the answer.



> 4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.
> 
> 5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.



Again, exactly right.  These will be fully-qualified Regular Force PCF-trained drivers.  How are these guys any different than the PPCLI soldiers about to start the same training?  We have a bunch of guys firing sabot without knowing all the facts/background.  The tiny number of drivers we're talking about are in positions currently no-filled.  LFWA has been directed to single source all positions.  HSG said they could fill, had people willing to become _fully qualified_ that couldn't be employed elsewhere, and these positions had _already been bounced as no-fills._

Again, pointless pontificating without the required background isn't helpful.


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## Armymedic

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Who said medics would be crew commanding?



I did, cause Reg F 5B medics are.


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## Groucho

There are personal from my TA unit (Scottish Transport Regiment RLC (V) ) currently in Iraq driving armoured Landrovers for an infantry unit! The idea behind this is allows more infantrymen to be in the bricks! so if a medic is willing to drive a Bison amb then its ok by me! Before anybody I do not know what I am talking about I spent 10 years in the 48th Highlanders before I moved to Scotland !


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## Teddy Ruxpin

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> I did, cause Reg F 5B medics are.



Roger, but I was referring to this specific instance.


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## GINge!

HSO said:
			
		

> Wow.  Send off a little missive and it turns into a full on discussion.
> 
> To clarify.
> 1) I believe the DRIVER positions were given to HSG as the Army said they could not fill them. I can confirm this after the break if anyone is dying to know.



Correct, and here's some background info. There were 4 key issues to employing PRes MedTechs as Bison drivers:

1. In 1 CMBG, the posns have traditionally gone to LdSH(RC), however given the Leopard C2 tasks, manpower at their Regt is at a premium. The Strathcona's indicated that they would likely no-fill these positions - keep in mind that on the Trg TO&E, these are NOT 021 (Armd), but are rather 971 (Any) MOC. Furthermore, there were no PRes Armour units that submitted nominations which made it to the CFTPO for those positions. 

2. As has been discussed, we have had a number of interested PRes medics in 1 HSG who want to go on tour, but are not qualified to go as medics. The only non-clinical positions they could fill in the HSS TF are the 6 x Bison driver ones. 

3. Coincidentally, 1 Fd Amb was able to get positions on a 1 Svc Bn Bison Dvr crse in Jan 07. 

4. And, CFMG approved 1 HSG's plan to use of PRes Bison drivers

As a result, I asked that LFWA source those positions to CFMG with the logical recommendation that 1 HSG fill them. This is in keeping with the 'single source' TF that is coming on line with 1-08. This will give those soldiers 1 full year of driving experience prior to deployment. Six of those positions will be going to PRes soldiers (already identified). Those soldiers will be on Cl B until 2 Apr, at which time they will be given Cl C contracts. Provided all gateway trg is successful, the soldier DAGs Green, and the HSTF Comd approves, they will be going to war as Bison Amb drivers. I believe 2 of the RegF soldiers are MSE Op Dvr Examiner qualified. I am not certain of the other 2 MOC, though I suspect they are MedTech and will provide Bison Dvr backfill during HLTA or Op Repl pool capability.

I have been assured by key staff at 1 Fd Amb, that these PRes Bison dvrs will be given the maximum amount of wheel time possible. This includes supporting several crew comd crses, sp to TF 1-08 Lvl 3.5 Trg, and of course all the CMTC work ups & FTX. 

I am aware that as a driver, they will not participate in what goes on 'in the back' of the amb. However, one cannot deny that they will recieve a far greater degree of HSS exposure than any other non-clinical position within the TF. They will return to their Res Fd Ambs with this knowledge & experience, and CFMG on the whole will be better for it. I hardly think getting 6 reservists qualified as Bison drivers is considered 'empire building'. We are, however, trying to add another dimension of experience to our Res Fd Ambs which I believe is lacking. 



> 2) I have no idea who will be crew commanding.  Certainly not reserve Medics I am sure.



Correct, it will be RegF MedTechs.



> 3) They are trained ambulance drivers.  One is an MSE Op.  The other 2 are Medics who lack PCP training as the system is not yet in place yet for large numbers of Res Medics to take the PCP training.  I believe in all of the Medical Reserve their are 4-6 members who will get this training this year.



The plan is to have all 6 PRes as the TF Bison drivers. Between now and the execution is some 13 months, so I am almost certain there will be some changes to follow.



> 4) They are being put on Class B contracts vice class C, as if they do not pass muster they will be RTU.  I am sure the people that make these decisions will not send people over to do the job unless they can do it right.  If they can't cut it, send them back to unit rather than endanger anyone. I wouldn't want anything else.



Correct. Just to amplify, the 'passing muster' is applicable to all TF 1-08 HSS soldiers, not just PRes. There will be one standard. 



> 5) They are starting this training In January of 2007.  This is a full year of driving and preparing to do the job.  Not bad at all in my books, but I could be wrong.



I too believe that one year of solid driver training, plus the whole CMTC environment will be enough for the HSS TF Comd to make a successful Opred declaration wrt PRes Bison dvrs. I'm basing that on my previous experiences in a mechanized Regt and my assurances from the PRes Fd Amb staff that the soldiers they have selected will be successful. I also have every confidence in our Med Tech Crew comds that any driver issues will be identified and solved before deployment.


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## Gunner98

Just because CF H Svcs Gp HQ has said this is a good idea, that does mean that the Task Force Comd or HSS Coy Comd will concur when the wheels hit the road in 'Gstan.  

These pers have a long road ahead of them once they are selected for the taskings and I wish them good luck in making it to departure date.  I am sure they are up to the challenge and I wish them well.


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## GINge!

> Provided all gateway trg is successful...and the HSTF Comd approves, they will be going to war as Bison Amb drivers.



As stated. Though if he or she does not approve, finding new Amb drivers after TOCA will be an interesting prospect.


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## medaid

I just want to say that I wish my troops well. They are hard working individuals who will do my unit proud, as well as the rest of the HSG in their roles as a ResMed Tech Amb Driver. Now, like many of you said, this may or may not happen. But I think the important part right at this moment, is to wish them luck and all the best during their endeavors in the Sand Box. That's just me.


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## geo

Wish all the troops "all the luck of the Irish!"


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## HCA

n update.  As of the 19th of January we now have 5 personnel from 12 Fd Amb training up to be Bison drivers for TF 1-08.  It also looks like we might be sending two PCP medics as well for the Role 3 facility and our Adjt as a CIMIC officer. ;D  

Now if we can just get them to take a new snapshot for the Reserve Restructure study....


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## medaid

Indeed!  ;D


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## bisonmedic

Getting the bison course is a great thing for bothe Reg and Res type medics, however for the current ops in Afghanistan the drivers at least should be non med pers. When I was in Bosnia I was the driver for the Bison only because the Coy I was with had no qualified drivers to give up. Right now in Kandahar our drivers are RCD. The crew commander is still a medic for the simple reason that they can control the medical end of the call properly as well as back up the junior medic if required. It would be nice to have a crew commander that was not a medic and have two med techs in the back. We simply do not have the manpower to do that. Our medic crew commanders have shown they up to the task and are not afraid to fight back when needed, but in the future a combat arms crew commander should be in the hole and that other mediccould be put where he/she is needed.


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## Love793

I agree with Bisonmedic on this one.  The driving and commanding of AFV should be left to the people whom have the most experience with them.  I understand the problem with not having enough avail crew commanders around to command, and therefore causing Medics to be commanders taking them away from their primary role, and have a small solution to it.  Take the Reserve Armd MCpls who have applied for positions and place them as Bison Amb CC's.  Instead of having them sit in J1/J3/J4 positions.  Just a thought.


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## George Wallace

Love793 said:
			
		

> .......  Just a thought.



After all these pages, that has been the gist of the discusion.


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## Howie

Time for an ex amb pusher to step in and add opinion..

This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.

I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.

Having an MSE op driving, a medic MCpl crew commanding and a medic as an air sentry would be ideal. In the event of injury, the air sentry can dive down with the patient, and do what he needs to to assist the patient. Should a more severe case happen, the crew commander can assist if needed, while the driver can drive the amb and focus solely on that. The CC has the advantage of being truly in command of the boat, and the overall command of coms with zero and 83. This is essential as the CC has to relay the patient information to 83 as we come in, so that 83 can prepare for the incoming. 

So why use truckers as drivers? Experience is one thing. Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them.  We drive for a living. Its what we do, medical magic is not part of the equation, nor should it be. 

Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice? The medic is busy enough doing his job as is. And if he is really that busy, he might have the crew commander trying to help. They don't need your distraction, or input. You need to focus on what your job is, getting everyone safely and quickly back to 83. And in places like Afghan, you need all the concentration you have, and even more so when the CC is down assisting, as your 2nd set of eyes are now gone.

To obtain a bison qualification, you need training on the bison specifically, the amb specifically, and the general training of air brakes. If your a medic, thats closer to 10 weeks of training, easily. As a trucker, you only need the bison, and the amb which can be done in 3 weeks as were already qualified air brakes. Not trying ot make a stab, just a general statement. Why waste a medics time?

Just my two cents.


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## Donut

Hmmm, I've never felt the urge to stop the car, crawl in back, and tell my partner what to do, except when it's a cute little ski bunny who might benefit from some more, uhm, personal attention   ;D

[quote 

author=Howie link=topic=54676/post-537527#msg537527 date=1173203045]
Time for an ex amb pusher to step in and add opinion..

This is just that, my opinion, nothing more. Nothing less. Just my 2c.

I am an MSE op who has driven the Bison Amb overseas in Kabul, Roto 3. For whatever reason, we were selected to drive HSS's ambs. This is what I take away from the experience and what I have learned from it, as we had lots of discussion in the smoking pit regarding this topic.
...
 Also with our lack of medical knowledge, we would be less likely to interfere with the action going on in the back and get the patient to 83 as soon as possible. All we should need to know is where the kit is in the boat, so if it is needed we can get it for them
...
Having a medic driving a bison is not a bad thing, just about anyone can drive a bison. They really are not a difficult vehicle to operate, however, could you imagine yourself driving a bison, hearing through the intercom what is going on 5 feet behind you and then trying to resist the urge of not trying to put in some helpful advice? 

[/quote]

BUT, I agree, having an MSE Op drive isn't a bad thing, it is what they do, after all.  Thanks for that, Howie.


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## Howie

MMM.. Ski bunny.. Akk.. Anyhow..

Yeah, I can speak for all medics of course, but I know if I had the ability, It would be hard for me to resist.. 

Especially if it happened to be one of those.. Ski Bunnies... *daydream goes here* ;D


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## RatCatcher

I hate to ruin the thread, but apparently (from what I have heard), the bisons don't leave the camps! In addition, the air sentry is also no more, more risk than good. Keep in mind that this is third party news we received during roto 4 training to date. All I know is apparently my position switches camps every month!! Apparently using chopper tpt. However, I would prefer an MSE Driver, an infantry CC, and 2 medics in the back. That being said, I am no longer a medic. 

The training for Roto 4 in Texas was very educational in what to expect for IEDs and was an eye opener for all the members of the tour!


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## bisonmedic

Just for your info, the Bison Ambs do leave the camps and are out everywhere you could imagine and have taken quite the beatings. The boats have to be up with the fighting troops so they can act as the CCP and evac to the fobs,etc.


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## GINge!

Howie said:
			
		

> Why waste a medics time?



Howie, in this particular case, we aren't wasting a medics time.

The Bison dvr positions on 1-08 are MOC 971 (Any) positions that happen to be filled with 'unqualified'* medics. Ie, if these 8 x PRes Medtechs were not filling the dvr positions, they would not be going over on Roto 5 in any other capacity. 

That being said, I have nothing against an MSE Op (or other MOC) filling a driver position, particularly if they can bring those skills back to the Fd Amb and help instruct on Amb driver courses. 

*meaning they don't have PCP qual and as such cannot deploy as medics on Roto 5.


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## Fdtrucker

Howie- your reply #69 there are some inconsistently with about medical knowledge and veh quals. Try reading CFP 158.5 TD 556 about Amb qualifications which req 1 yr on the veh, certain medical qualifications before you get a Amb qual ( C17, G16, G17 C71).  Bison AVGP do not require a Airbrake course either. Only Spec for 121 system, HLVW, LAV 3 and the nyala are Airbrakes endorsements. You can check with Adm Coy tpt or your Sect Comd. If you have access to the Intranet try D Tn 3 under publications


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## Howie

Well. There you have it I guess. I'm not SME of the Tn gods. I'll take your word for it, and stand corrected.


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## Fdtrucker

If you were Roto 3 in Kabul you would have seem me there, as i was on Roto 2 out of Edmonton. The Roto 3 Tpt WO had a beard looking for like a PO1 Now he is a MWO.


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## Howie

Pm'ed, Lets not hijack the forum lol


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