# BMQ to BMOQ - is it necessary?



## CB123 (24 Nov 2008)

Hey,

I'm was an NCM, did my BMQ (Reg Force), a bunch of stuff, my QL3, and made it LS. Then I released a few months ago. Now I have re-applied for ROTP. Do I really have to do my BMOQ... I know there is a large leadership component, but is there a way to just do that instead of the whole 'get treated like crap' part again.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> I know there is a large leadership component, but is there a way to just do that instead of the whole 'get treated like crap' part again.



Good practice for being an officer cadet, no?   ;D

Seriously, though, would you have had to take BMOQ if you'd stayed in as an LS and applied?  I'm guessing if that's the case, you're in for the full monty....


----------



## CB123 (24 Nov 2008)

Well, for any one else wondering, here is a useful link:

http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/DLI/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/botp_e.asp

Appartly you can bypass it, but its a case by case situation. However, this only applies to members till active. I just realesed, so does nayone know what I can do?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (24 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> *I'm was an NCM, did my BMQ (Reg Force), a bunch of stuff, my QL3, and made it LS.* Then I released a few months ago. Now I have re-applied for ROTP. Do I really have to do my BMOQ... I know there is a large leadership component, but is there a way to just do that instead of the whole 'get treated like crap' part again.



and from that site,



> CDA has the authority to grant equivalency to the Basic Military Officer Qualification – AIPB to Officer candidates and NCMs who initially took other leadership courses with the Regular Force and/or Reserve Force.
> 
> The following documents are required to submit a request for BMOQ Equivalency:
> 
> ...



Note my highlighted points.


----------



## CB123 (24 Nov 2008)

Yhea, I just called. Apparently I can get a bypass for my IAP, but not my BOTP - but the IAP is 8 weeks, so that good. 

6 weeks of BOTP isn't so bad


----------



## xmarcx (24 Nov 2008)

You might want to confirm your confirmation. PLQ has generally been the equivalency required for IAP bypass.


----------



## CB123 (24 Nov 2008)

Well, its case by case. I called directly and that's the answer I recived, but I guess I'll have to wait until official documents come through.


----------



## Sly@CDA (24 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> Yhea, I just called. Apparently I can get a bypass for my IAP, but not my BOTP - but the IAP is 8 weeks, so that good.
> 
> 6 weeks of BOTP isn't so bad



Equivalency are granted on a case by case. When you re-enrolled your PLAR will be reviewed by CFRG HQ in Borden and you may be granted a waiver to the IAP. It's all in the hand of CFRG. Good luck


----------



## Drag (25 Nov 2008)

I did IAP with 30+ UTPNCMs who had between 6 and 14 years in, quite a few acting-lacking MCpls among the crew.  If they did not get IAP bypass I  do not see a QL3 getting it.  As far as I know Sly is right, PLARs are awarded after enrolment by Borden


----------



## CB123 (25 Nov 2008)

There's a lot of negativity here. Let me clarify something:

- I did not mention that my BMQ was quite recent, and on the phone I was told that that does have an effect.

- As for the IAP exemption I mentioned, I recieved that information from someone who actually works on them, so chill out ppl. I am also aware its cases by case.

- I know there have been plenty of people who were better qualitifed and whatnot who did not get exemption, so please stop bringing that up, its been established already.


Obviously, I am ready to do both IAP and BOTP, but as the forum title states, I was wondering why it is really necessary. If you have something constructive to add, be my guest, otherwise, don't say anything.


----------



## George Wallace (25 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> ....., I was wondering why it is really necessary.



Well, if you want to bring up the Initial Assessment Phase, then you must admit that that is exactly what it is; an INITIL assessment of your potential to continue further.  Perhaps you don't have what it takes, and by bypassing this stage, you become a waste of Taxpayers' dollars.  We couldn't have that; could we?


----------



## Gunnar (25 Nov 2008)

> There's a lot of negativity here. Let me clarify something:



Dude, I'm looking for the dogpile, but I'm not seeing one.



> If you have something constructive to add, be my guest, otherwise, don't say anything.



Did you have breakfast this morning?  You're coming across as snarky.  I've just been seeing people providing information in a relatively non-confrontational way.  A leader needs to consider what effect his words (and the tone in which they are conveyed) will have on his colleagues.

It sounds like you have the majority of the information you seek however.


----------



## CB123 (25 Nov 2008)

Then I retract my comments and apologise. 


Goerge Wallace -

I completly agree, and no, there is no harm done in doing IAP. I guess there is little more to say, and we just need to the CF do its job in deciding.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> There's a lot of negativity here. Let me clarify something:
> 
> - I did not mention that my BMQ was quite recent, and on the phone I was told that that does have an effect.
> 
> ...



I'll answer your question simply.  IAP and BMQ are not the same courses,  the training is not the same, not is the desired output the same.  Regardless of if you were a AB or a A/L LS when you released, the real question is what leadership training or experience  do you have?  Also, there are other differences in the BMQ and BMOQ coursing that is taken into consideration.

Performance Objectives (BMQ)

PO 101 - Contribute as a member of a military team; 
PO 102 - Adhere to CF regulations and orders; 
PO 103 - Operate the service rifle; 
PO 104 - Develop physical fitness proficiency; 
PO 105 - Perform drill; 
PO 106 - Administer first aid; 
PO 107 - Operate in a field environment; 
PO 108 - Participate in force protection; 
PO 109 - Survive under CBRN conditions;  (CBRN is covered in BOTP for Officer Cadets)
PO 110 - Maintain a safe working environment; 
PO 111 - Communicate verbally and in writing; 
EdO 101 - Canadian domestic and international military relationships 
EdO 102 - History, heritage, traditions of the profession of arms in Canada 
EdO 103 - CF well-being programs and initiatives 
EdO 104 - Personal management and administrative procedu

Performance Objectives (IAP)

PO 101: Demonstrate military leadership 
PO 102: Adhere to CF regulations and orders 
PO 103: Operate the service rifle 
PO 104: Develop physical fitness proficiency 
PO 105: Perform drill 
PO 106: Administer First Aid 
PO 107: Operate in a field environment 
PO 110: Maintain a safe working environment 
PO 111: Communicate verbally and in writing 
EDO 101: Canadian domestic / international military relationships 
EDO 102: History, heritage, traditions of the profession of arms in Canada 
EDO 103: CF well-being programs and initiatives 
EDO 104: Personal management and administrative procedures 

* info as of 2008-02-05


----------



## CB123 (25 Nov 2008)

Cool! Thanks for the chart! 

I see that the leadership issue is there, but you m ust admit its really, really similar


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> Cool! Thanks for the chart!
> 
> I see that the leadership issue is there, but you m ust admit its really, really similar



The content is extremely similar (by POs atleast).  The conduct is different as well as the goal of the training.

The deciding factor, as it should be, for determining a mbr's IAP/BOTP requirement who is, in your case, a former NCM going Officer, is the mb'rs training and experience, hence no 'cookie cutter' solutions.


----------



## aesop081 (25 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> I see that the leadership issue is there, but you m ust admit its really, really similar



You want to go officer or not ?

You were given plenty of advice on the process to be evaluated for equivalency, either get on with that or stay an NCM. You can argue and use the word "similar" until you are blue in the face, it doesnt matter.

Its not that freakin hard.........


----------



## Eye In The Sky (25 Nov 2008)

CB123 said:
			
		

> Yhea, I just called. Apparently I can get a bypass for my IAP, but not my BOTP - but the IAP is 8 weeks, so that good.
> 
> 6 weeks of BOTP isn't so bad



I knew there was something else I saw in this thread I wanted to comment on, based on your bypassing IAP.  Here are some things to consider:

1)  You will be coming in cold.  Everyone else in the platoon will be 'known commodities', to both the staff and the candidates.  You, however, will be an unknown.  
2)  You will not likely be in the same physical condition as the rest of the platoon.  Example, their blisters from boots, etc will no longer be a factor.  BOTP is field-heavy.  Nuff said.
3)  You will have to ramp-up on battle procedure, mission analysis, and a long list of other things that the rest of the platoon will already ready, for the most part, be good-to-go with.  I am curious, being that you were a LS before, how ramped up you are on 'army stuff' that is VITALLY IMPORTANT to passing BOTP.
4)  Your kit and quarters will be expected to be up to standard with the rest of the course, who have been working on theirs for 8 weeks.  As well as their drill.  Low-level leadership.  I could make a list of things that they will have 'at the standard' that you will have to ramp up on rickity-f**kin-tick.  Or not.  And start getting swipes.  And then seeing the Div OC (likely not good for a BOTP candidate).

Do Ocdts come into the BOTP course and and complete the training, in some cases with ease?  Sure...when I was around that neck of the woods, a former Sgt (PPCLI) showed up for BOTP:  fit, switched on, up on BP, tactics, all that stuff.  Just back off tour, as a matter of fact.  So you put yourself in that same level of ability?

You might want, personally, to avoid 8 weeks of IAP as "a waste of time and BS".  Personally, I think you are playing with fire and might find yourself wishing you would have done IAP, if you get a bypass, and you show up for BOTP.  If you were coming from an operationally oriented, field going unit as a NCM and had leadership training and experience, I would think IAP would be what you *think* it might be to you.

Again, all my opinion...but from having seen this kind of stuff before once or twice.


----------



## CB123 (25 Nov 2008)

Thanks, Eye In The Sky


----------



## SupersonicMax (25 Nov 2008)

It used to be IAP one summer, BOTP the next, for ROTP candidates.  I did my BOTP with people that started IAP right before their BOTP.  I did not feel out of place or I didn't find it any harder than any of the other people.  The field aspect of BOTP isn't that hard.  What's the real "challenge" are the leadership tasks...


----------



## ltmaverick25 (26 Nov 2008)

I have a few questions pertaining to my own situation.

I have been an NCM for 14 years, 10 years artillery, 4 years Int Op.  In that time I completed the old QL2 Basic and all the funky add ons that came along with it, QL3 Artillery, QL4 Arty Comms.  Then I went on to do the JLC when it was still called that.  I did the JNCO right afterwards but got injurded in the last week and had to be recoursed.  The system then changed to the PLQ method.  So I completed MOD 3 and 5, then did the MOD 6 to complete my PLQ qualification at Leadership Coy in Pet.  Also did QL3, then QL5 Int Op.  Ive worked as an instructor on BMQs and Int Op courses as well.

Anyway, I now a MARS Officer and was granted an IAP bypass but was surprised that the BOTC had not been written off as well.  Back when I was still army I was told the BOTC would be written off for sure, but apparently Navy land not so much.  I would very much like not to have to do a 3rd PLQ style course all over again 

Does anyone have any insight on this?  How exactly do I go about this PLAR procedure?  Is it worth a shot in my case or is it a waste of time?


----------



## MJP (26 Nov 2008)

Here is the link of the documents required when submitting an equivalency to the BMOQ: http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/DLI/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/botp_e.asp

Try it as the worse they can say is no.


----------



## AD (26 Nov 2008)

I have a similar situation, though I am an O'cdt. I completed IAP in the summer of 2007. This past summer I was injured on BOTP an recoursed for this summer. Now that the system has changed, I may have to complete the entire BMOQ course. I have discussed with my SEM possibly getting a bypass of IAP, and slipping into the course when BOTP starts, but he does not have any information for me other than, "maybe you'll do it, maybe you won't have to."

I am going to take matters into my own hands and write the memos and complete the forms necessary. However, if I do have to complete the 15 week BMOQ course, I am fine. There's nothing wrong with a refreshment of information you've already received. Yes, it's time consuming, and not very cost-effective, and you will be treated as a piece of dirt, but c'est la vie! There are many pros and cons to the situation. The best we can do is try to get a bypass, and if they say no, suck it up and do the course. You've already done it, so it shouldn't be too hard. 

Lots-a-luck!


----------



## ltmaverick25 (26 Nov 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Here is the link of the documents required when submitting an equivalency to the BMOQ: http://www.cda-acd.forces.gc.ca/DLI/engraph/services/accred/milequiv/botp_e.asp
> 
> Try it as the worse they can say is no.



Thanks, I was just reading in the other thread that pertains directly to this and it seems like at least one person had some success with this so I will give it a try.  Sadly Im not at a DIN right now so I will have to wait until tomorrow.


----------



## ltmaverick25 (26 Nov 2008)

Delmonte said:
			
		

> I have a similar situation, though I am an O'cdt. I completed IAP in the summer of 2007. This past summer I was injured on BOTP an recoursed for this summer. Now that the system has changed, I may have to complete the entire BMOQ course. I have discussed with my SEM possibly getting a bypass of IAP, and slipping into the course when BOTP starts, but he does not have any information for me other than, "maybe you'll do it, maybe you won't have to."
> 
> I am going to take matters into my own hands and write the memos and complete the forms necessary. However, if I do have to complete the 15 week BMOQ course, I am fine. There's nothing wrong with a refreshment of information you've already received. Yes, it's time consuming, and not very cost-effective, and you will be treated as a piece of dirt, but c'est la vie! There are many pros and cons to the situation. The best we can do is try to get a bypass, and if they say no, suck it up and do the course. You've already done it, so it shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> Lots-a-luck!



You are a much more patient man that I am.  After 14 years of that BS the last thing I want to do is do it again!!


----------



## AD (26 Nov 2008)

Haha well I've only been in for 3, so I'm not really used to anything else!! I think I would feel a lot different if I were in your situation.
But, as I've learned in the short time I've been a member, the army loves to spend time and money. As much as it can.

Allie! (yes, I am a female) I think i'll change my display name now haha


----------



## Sly@CDA (26 Nov 2008)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> I have a few questions pertaining to my own situation.
> 
> I have been an NCM for 14 years, 10 years artillery, 4 years Int Op.  In that time I completed the old QL2 Basic and all the funky add ons that came along with it, QL3 Artillery, QL4 Arty Comms.  Then I went on to do the JLC when it was still called that.  I did the JNCO right afterwards but got injurded in the last week and had to be recoursed.  The system then changed to the PLQ method.  So I completed MOD 3 and 5, then did the MOD 6 to complete my PLQ qualification at Leadership Coy in Pet.  Also did QL3, then QL5 Int Op.  Ive worked as an instructor on BMQs and Int Op courses as well.
> 
> ...



You are eligible for an equivalency. The Canadian Defence Academy has been granting equivalencies to the BOTP to members who have completed a PLQ, JLC, PRes Jnr NCO etc...follow the link that MJP provided.  Don't forget to include a letter of recommendations from your CO (very important).

MJP: I'm still waiting for your paperwork!


----------



## MJP (26 Nov 2008)

Sly20 said:
			
		

> MJP: I'm still waiting for your paperwork!



I have emailed my ULO with the memo and what not...hopefully it doesn't take forever to get to the CDA.


----------



## ltmaverick25 (27 Nov 2008)

Sly20 are you one of the people that processes this paperwork?

I just spoke to my DIV O about the situation today and he fully supports the idea and is confident the CO will write a good letter for me so I am hoping it will work out.  Im going to get all this stuff filled out and sent off tomorrow.  I really hope this works, not only will I not have to do this type of course AGAIN, but I will have 6 extra weeks to work on my thesis before NETP-O starts.


----------

