# Canadian Tank Aces



## X-mo-1979 (24 Dec 2008)

We have all heard of such wonderful tank aces as Kinspel,Wittman(woll) from the German army.And American tank ace Lafayette Pool.However I was wondering if anyone had any info on Canadian tank aces.From the info I have found most people say we did not keep records of such things.I find it kind of sad we have airforce heros (Bishop) however no tank aces.

I'm sure there were many amasing tank aces,but alas we tend never to toot our own horns.The Canadian way I guess.

Does anyone have any info regarding Canadian tank aces?


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## Old Sweat (24 Dec 2008)

BGen (ret) SV Radley-Walters, who was a sqn comd and then the CO of the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment, told me he had knocked out 18 German AFVs. He also had three tanks shot out from under him and was wounded twice. I think you are right in that we didn't keep score.


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## Shec (24 Dec 2008)

Sgt. Samuel Moses Hurwitz DCM, MM, Canadian Grenadier Guards.  Not technically a "tank ace" as he won both medals when he dismounted on two occasions during 1944 to eliminate enemy positions with small arms.  Nevertheless,  according to Marteinson & McNorgan's  2000 The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps, An Illustrated History  he is one of the most decorated men in the Corps.  (pp.267, 298).  

http://www.cjccc.ca/archives/casualtyinfo.php?info=345


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## hammond (24 Dec 2008)

I just recently watched a television show on the History Channel, "Battlefield Mysteries", That accredited the  Sherbrookes with putting an end to The "Black Baron" Wittman's destructive path. I would also be interested in hearing about some Tanker Aces.


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## Good2Golf (24 Dec 2008)

IslandTrooper said:
			
		

> I just recently watched a television show on the History Channel, "Battlefield Mysteries", That accredited the  Sherbrookes with putting an end to The "Black Baron" Wittman's destructive path. I would also be interested in hearing about some Tanker Aces.



Saw that too.  Very interesting.  I wonder if Radley-Walters was in that action?


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## Old Sweat (24 Dec 2008)

Duey,

It was his squadron at the chateau in Gauemesnil that got Wittmann. Rad did not claim Wittmann himself but he did tell me he got a Panzerjager in the action.


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## Good2Golf (24 Dec 2008)

Brian, very cool.  It looked like Wittmann was an incredibly capable foe.  That the Rad and the Sherbrookes were decisively involved in Wittmann's last action was something.

Cheers


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## X-mo-1979 (24 Dec 2008)

Wittman was an awesome tanker.However I tend to lean towards Kurt Knispel myself.He would never argue if someone else tried to claim the kill,yet managed more tank kills than Wittman and his gunner Bobby.Very modest guy who gunned and crewcommanded every vehicle in the Reich arsenal.

I know its wilki.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Knispel#Awards


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## Old Sweat (24 Dec 2008)

I could start a long discussion but suffice to say Wittmann was formidable because he was in a Tiger. The bottom line is that on 8 August 1944 he drove into an ambush that a prudent tank commander would have avoided. The result was that he and most of the crews of his seven Tigers died without the loss of a tank on the Allied side.


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## X-mo-1979 (24 Dec 2008)

And Knispel looks like they guys who trained me at the Panzertruppen schule.


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## TangoTwoBravo (25 Dec 2008)

Lieutenant Green, Trooper Chapman (Gunner) and Trooper Sass (Loader) of the 1st Hussars killed five Panthers with their Firefly in one engagement on 9 June 1944. They added three more kills on 11 June 1944. The Allies did not seem to make "aces" of their tankers in the same manner as the Germans.


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## Infanteer (25 Dec 2008)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I could start a long discussion but suffice to say Wittmann was formidable because he was in a Tiger. The bottom line is that on 8 August 1944 he drove into an ambush that a prudent tank commander would have avoided. The result was that he and most of the crews of his seven Tigers died without the loss of a tank on the Allied side.



Sounds like a case of placing too much faith in your equipment - or simple victory disease....


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## Danjanou (25 Dec 2008)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Sounds like a case of placing too much faith in your equipment - or simple victory disease....



Add a lively dose of cockiness to the mix. Remember a month earlier he had almost single handed knocked out a column of the 7th Armoured Division at Villers Bocage.


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## Old Sweat (25 Dec 2008)

There were less than 1500 Tiger 1s built in total and most fought on the Eastern Front. Only three battalions were deployed in Normandy - about 135 Tigers - and most were knocked out or destroyed by their crews after breaking down. Very few, if any, actually escaped from Normandy.

There were a number of reasons for both the low numbers and the casualty rate. It was a horribly expensive tank to build in terms of both man hours and cost. Moreover the Tiger was mechanically unreliable and almost impossible to recover with the resources the Germans had available for the task. However it was potent and nearly indestructible under normal circumstances. In modern speak it was a force multiplier. The Germans often employed in singly for this very reason, and its potency resulted in a tendency to label any tank sighted as a Tiger. In this case Wittmann, who was very much an agressive sort, led his men into a trap and paid the price.


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## geo (25 Dec 2008)

From what I have been made to understand, German tanks in NW Europe, Panthers & Tigers were designed to be serviced & repaired in EME shops & not in a field expedient manner... When they broke down, they almost always had to be put to the torch as the crews bailed....


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## Genetk44 (26 Dec 2008)

For those interested... a link to a pretty comprehensive list in order, of German tank aces
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=1454


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## Good2Golf (27 Dec 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> And Knispel looks like they guys who trained me at the Panzertruppen schule.



Actually, the first thing I thought when I was saw Knispel's photo was U-boat Kapitan.






_*edit* darned dyslexia_


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## geo (27 Dec 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Actually, the first thing I thought when I was Knispel's photo was U-boat Kapitan.



WOW! You were a photo of a U-Boat Kapitan ?   >


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## Dog Walker (27 Dec 2008)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Lieutenant Green, Trooper Chapman (Gunner) and Trooper Sass (Loader) of the 1st Hussars killed five Panthers with their Firefly in one engagement on 9 June 1944. They added three more kills on 11 June 1944. The Allies did not seem to make "aces" of their tankers in the same manner as the Germans.



Just to get things right. It was a Firefly ( Contesse de Feu) commanded by Lt Gordon K. Henry which killed the five Panthers from 3rd Company 12th SS Pz. Div. on the 9th of June 1944. The loader/operator was Trooper “Sass” Seaman, the gunner Trooper Archie Chapman and Lance-Corporal Tom Reeves the Driver. Captain Cyril Tweedale accounted for another Panther while Sgt Art Boyle killed a seventh one. On the 11th of June Lt Henry’s tank killed two Panzer IVs from 8th Company 12th SS. Sgt Boyle accounted for the third Panzer IV.  (Ref: “The Gallant Hussars: a History of the 1st Hussars Regiment 1856 – 2004” by Michael R. McNorgan). 

Two things are needed to rack up high scores like the German Aces did. The first is time in combat. The Germans had years of experience. The Second is abundant targets. The tank battles on the Eastern front were huge involving hundreds of tanks. It was only in Normandy that the Canadians encountered German Armour in large numbers. The Normandy battle lasted only 76 days.  In Italy, Holland and Germany the Canadians only encountered small numbers of German tanks and SPGs. Canadian tank crews couldn’t run up high kill numbers because the German tanks simply were not there to be killed.


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## TangoTwoBravo (27 Dec 2008)

LOL, I don't know how I wrote Green since I used the same book!


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## Old Sweat (27 Dec 2008)

Dog Walker said:
			
		

> Two things are needed to rack up high scores like the German Aces did. The first is time in combat. The Germans had years of experience. The Second is abundant targets. The tank battles on the Eastern front were huge involving hundreds of tanks. It was only in Normandy that the Canadians encountered German Armour in large numbers. The Normandy battle lasted only 76 days.  In Italy, Holland and Germany the Canadians only encountered small numbers of German tanks and SPGs. Canadian tank crews couldn’t run up high kill numbers because the German tanks simply were not there to be killed.



Excellent summary, Dog Walker. It should also be remembered that most Allied Shermans were outmatched by German tanks and SPs. See the chart on p. 374 of No Holding Back for a graphical comparison of effective ranges of German tank and anti-tank guns versus the Sherman's 75mm.


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## Genetk44 (27 Dec 2008)

I saw an interesting program a few weeks ago, I forget the name but I think it was on History Channel Canada, hosted by that fellow from King and Country...Norm Christie....that purported to prove that the British tanks were too far away from the Tigers to have killed them...and that the Canadian tanks were not only well within range to do the job but were in perfect killing spots.  
Anybody else see that particuler program?

Cheers
Gene


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## Old Sweat (27 Dec 2008)

A number of us saw the program which was hosted by Norm Christie. It is discussed on the first page of this thread. The Wittmann affair is also discussed in Appendix E of No Holding Back. This is the second time I have referred to it on this thread, but I am prejudiced as it is by my favourite author, me.


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## Genetk44 (27 Dec 2008)

Apologies for haveing repeated, in my previous post, something that was already discussed at the start of the thread. Actually I read the thread right from the beginning....yesterday...my memory must be going to s**t  

And unfortunately I don't have the book...No Holding Back...is it available at Chapters/indigo???

Cheers
Gene


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## TangoTwoBravo (27 Dec 2008)

My oblique comment was that the German propaganda machine appeared inclined to create tanker "aces", while the Allies did not seem to have the same inclination. This is not to say that the German aces did not have an impressive number of destroyed AFVs to their credit, but that the level of propaganda may have some bearing on why German tanker names are well know and Allied ones are not.


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## Old Sweat (27 Dec 2008)

Genetk44 said:
			
		

> And unfortunately I don't have the book...No Holding Back...is it available at Chapters/indigo???



I learned a few weeks ago from my publisher that the initial printing is sold out. The best place to try is Amazon.com which may have some copies in their stock. Failing that, Stackpole Press in the States is coming out with a soft cover edition this summer. And the public library is always worth a try.


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## TangoTwoBravo (27 Dec 2008)

Any word on a Tractable sequel?


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## larry Strong (27 Dec 2008)

Abe Books has a bunch of them for sale. The first one listed is even autographed:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Brian+A+Reid&sts=t&tn=No+Holding+Back&x=81&y=12


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