# Unfair Treatment



## RMCStudent (26 Nov 2004)

Currently, I am enrolled as a civilian in the MA program in War Studies at the Royal Military College (an established field dedicated to an examination of the phenomenon of war and peace, bringing scholarly insight and academic discipline to bear on the practical issues of defense policy, peacekeeping, strategic planning, as well as the operational aspects of modern warfare).

In November 2003, I visited the Recruitment Centre in Kingston hoping to enroll as an officer in the Canadian Forces. After filling all the paperwork and providing the official documentation, the sergeant in charge of recruitment has told me that it is a matter of days or weeks before I will be called for the physical and psychological exams. 

Having no news from the Recruitment Centre, six weeks later, I went back to inquire as to my application. There, I spoke with the head of the office, Captain McBean. He explained to me that although I am a Canadian citizen, the army cannot accept my application since I was not born in Canada. Moreover, he added, I was born in the Soviet Union, and Canadians born in the Soviet Union will not be accepted in the CF. I tried to explain that I was not born in the Soviet Union, but Romania, which is now part of the same military alliance as Canada, but to no avail. He seemed adamant in asserting that â Å“Canadians originally from the Soviet block will not and should not be accepted in the armyâ ?. Naturally, I tried to explain to him that all Canadians are equal in rights and I should not be treated discriminatorily. â Å“In this case, he replied, we are going to accept your application, but you're going to be subjected to an in-depth inquiry that will go on for two years or moreâ ?.

Ever since, I haven't got any news from the Recruitment Centre, no tests were performed, I don't even know if they still have my file or they threw it away.


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## Greywolf (26 Nov 2004)

This sounds strange.  It's true that people who were born in certain countries may have to go through a more lengthy security clearance process, but I do not think anyone's application should be subjected deliberately to unneccesary delays.  See if you can talk to someone else other than this captain at the recruiting centre.


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## Tracker (26 Nov 2004)

RMCStudent

How long have you resided in Canada?


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## Gouki (26 Nov 2004)

This is something you should really take to the ombudsman, especially with the trying to hire 5000 more members and such. He is aware of unfair treatment to recruits - don't hesitate to bring this up to him.


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## 48Highlander (26 Nov 2004)

I heard a rumour that within the last few years the requirements had been changed so that, if you weren't born in Canada, you must have lived here for at least 10 years before you can join.  That's just a rumour, and the DND website doesn't say anything about it, so it's probably wrong.
The requirements can be found here:
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/howtojoin/eligibility_e.aspx

I was born in a communist country in europe and lived in canada for 6 years before I applied.  My background check took roughly a month.  The entire proccess from my application to being sworn in took less than 2 months.  I know that things have gotten worse recently due to concerns over immigration and terrorism, but there's no reason why your background check should take years.


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## koach (26 Nov 2004)

RMCStudent,

Greywolf is right. Try talking to someone else at the CFRC and if that does not work, write a letter and address it to the Commanding Officer requesting an explanation on your situation.  I have never seen a situation like yours happen in that mannor, however; because you have not resided in Canada for at least 10 years, you will have go through a security pre-assessment which can take some time to complete.

Are you applying ROTP?


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## StormTrooper (26 Nov 2004)

I was born in Azerbaijan, which used to be part of the soviet union. I've lived in Canada for 6 years now, and have applied for the army on April 2004. I did my aptitude test on June, and right after the test this guy called me into a room and told me that they have to run a background check on me, since I was born in a "scheduled" country, and have lived in Canada for less than 10 years. He also told me that the background checks can take anywhere from 1 to 3 years. I agreed to go ahead with it. Since then I was called one time, which was on August, and they told me to go to my local recruiting centre (Toronto), and sign some additional papers. When I got there, they told me that they already ran a criminal record check on me, and now they were going to send my papers to a background checking agency, and that the waiting time may vary depending on the country you are from. Never once have I been told that I can't join the army because I am from a country that was part of the former Soviet Union. In a diverse country like Canada I can't believe that the captain actually told you that. I have 7 Russian friends that are currently in the army, and 3 of them got sworn in just last year after they graduated from high school. 

48Highlander,   If you lived in Canada for less than 10 years, it doesn't mean that you can't join. It just means that they are going to have to run a background check on you. 

RMCStudent, Clearly, you should go and talk to somebody else at the recruiting centre..


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## Boydfish (27 Nov 2004)

Strange.  My dad was born in the Soviet Union and was able to join the RCMP in the 1960's.  He rose to the rank of S/Sgt and did a great deal of international liasion and federal work.  It was never once held him back.

Considering the paranoia was a fair amount higher in the 1960's than today towards the Soviets, for obvious reasons, I'm curious why the CF would still have a "concern" about citizens born there.


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## NavyGrunt (27 Nov 2004)

I have served with multiple members who were from Romania and the Soviet block. New and members who were in 10 years ago.


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## BDTyre (27 Nov 2004)

One of the recruiting Lieutenants in the Seaforths was born in Russia itself, obviously while it was still the largest province in the Soviet Union and he obviously got in.


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## Thaedes (27 Nov 2004)

Very strange, Captain McBean recommended me for Service, and was very good with me.  Granted, I'm not from the Soviet Block, but from my experince, the man is in every way respectable.  

However, the whole process at CFRC Kingston was far from enjoyable for me, I have to admit it was extrodinarily beaurocractic and extremely agitating at the time.  Took me about 10 months all told to get into the Canadian forces, and I have no criminal record, and I've lived here all my life.  Persistence is key, and you know what, even once your past that part, persistence throughout your career will be integral as well.   They're will be many more trying times during your trainning as well.


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## R031button (28 Nov 2004)

I don't buy that at all. On coure my officer, Lt Wassak from the Seaforths, was Polish, and had defected with his family in the 80's. His dad had been KGB and his mother a chemicle warfare technician; if that didn't screw him on his application, I can hardly see Romanian decent being a big deal.


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## Bobby147 (28 Nov 2004)

Hi RMCStudent,

If you were not a part of Romanian defense forces....  It should be OK with you....  keep calling them every month and ask about status of your file.... Immigrants also pay taxes so they also have right to join Govt. jobs....  have patience....  your education is good....  hopefully you will get it....

Good luck....

Bobby


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## Morpheus32 (28 Nov 2004)

As having been a OC and DCO of a recruiting centre in the past I can offer you this advice.   It is normal that persons from scheduled countries will require a more thorough background check as noted by others above.   Officer applicants have to have the ability to gain a secret clearance so the requirements of the screening can be more indepth.   This is normal and can take a significant amount of time.

As far as the Captain's comments, I suggest you call him and clarify what he meant by his comments.   If he meant that people from scheduled countries can't join up directly in the army nor are they allowed to, he is correct.   The requirement for the security clearance is a federal requirement not something the army dreamed up.   Now, if you took this to mean he has a problem with people of East European or Soviet background joining the army, ie personal bias, then there is an issue to be addressed which is outside the recruiting process.

Threatening to call the ombudsman is a little premature and poor advice.   This is more likely a misscommunication than bias.   In my experience, new recruits, often unfamilar with military terminology sometimes missinterpret what was said.   Often recruiters, use to military terminology use it too often when speaking to recruit and cause confusion.   In many cases I would make the recruit repeat back in their own words to ensure they understood what I was saying.   In this case I recommend that you call back and get him to say again what he meant to ensure you have a full understanding.   If at the end of the day, he says that he hates Romanians or something bizarre like that, please drop me a line by email and I will assist you in how to proceed.

The whole recruiting process takes time unfortunately.   Many of the delays are paperwork demanded by Treasurary Board or other Federal departments.   Call the Captain back, have a chat and make sure you have the right data.   Remember he is correct when he said that you will require a thorough background check before your processing continues.   If you are serious, but in the paperwork for the background check and hopefully it will not take too long.   Also don't hesitate to contact me if you feel there is bias, or a concern outside of the administrative requirement to have the background screening.   Good luck

Jeff


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## humint (28 Nov 2004)

You state above that you applied in Nov 2003. 

My advice is to get back in there and apply (as it is Nov 2004). 

Be determined and don't take 'no' for an answer. 

You, as a CANADIAN CITIZEN, have the right to apply for a job in the CF. 

And, make sure you book your tests when you go in there to apply, don't let them give you the old "don't call us, we'll call you" as you'll be sitting by the phone for years to come.

Also, try to the ResF route first, and then transfer to RegF -- this route is often much quicker. 

Check out the PWOR or the Comms Squad. But, seeing as I'm in the Inf, my advice is to go to the PWOR.


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## Morpheus32 (28 Nov 2004)

He is a Canadian citizen and has the right to apply to join the CF which he has done already.  So there is no issue here.  The issue is to clarify what is the problem with his application as briefed to the applicant from the MCC.  If you are going to have an argument, it is best to know what you are arguing about.  Going off half cocked will not help anyone.

Jeff


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## humint (29 Nov 2004)

Well, to me, it appears as though they didn't even process his application. 

Simply saying, "Hey bud, you are from Russia -- too bad, so sad," does not appear to be much of a process. If they put the kybosh on your application, make sure you get their reason in wiriting -- it's the least they can do!

Again, you may want to go the route of ResF first, and then RegF, and see if this permits for the timely processing of your file.

So, all that said, I'm sticking by my first response!


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## NavyGrunt (29 Nov 2004)

argylls_recruiting said:
			
		

> Also, try to the ResF route first, and then transfer to RegF -- this route is often much quicker.



In what sense? Most recruiting horror stories come from this "transfer". Ive been trying to transfer for 11 mos now.....they've "lost" my file once, forgotten to call.....Im still waiting to do my medical......another 6 mos I should be in...Id like to know how thats faster


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## Gouki (29 Nov 2004)

From every source I have heard -- going from Reserve to Regular force is *much* longer than walking off the street and applying.

For starters, my own father, a WO chief clerk has told me this, as well as both of his friends in recruiting (a sgt. and a cpt.) my mothers captain who she reports her university marks to etc (I forget the term but she's doing ROTP) said that res to reg is also much longer. One 2VP Sgt. and one 2VP Cpl. said the same thing.

On top of that, our neighbor went from Reserve to Regular force, and it took him 2 years for the entire process to complete. And, I am basically doing the same now. Although I left the reserves, my old documents are being called up, and it's taking darn near forever. They lost my medical documents and that slowed me down by 2 months. Recalling any other pertinent documents (course reports etc) are also taking even more time.

Simply put, I know for 100% that it's not faster, because I am experiencing it and the aforementioned people, mostly high ranking and 3 of them in the recruiting trade itself all told me that (unfortunately) it is much faster to simply walk in off the street and apply.

The recruiting Sgt. outright told me that the system is totally broken, and that it's ridiculous that someone already in the system will have to wait longer to go where they want as opposed to a totally untrained civilian applying.


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## humint (29 Nov 2004)

Three points:

1.	It may be quicker in that the processing time to get into the ResF is shorter than RegF. Rather than standing around with his dick in his hand waiting for board selection and training, he should be able to get into a ResF unit within a couple of months. 

2.	Apparently, they (CFRC) had expedited the processing for transfers from ResF to RegF. Now, I'm not saying this is a quick process for everyone, everywhere â â€œ but, many of our unit's members going RegF have been processed and employed within 6-9 months.

3.	That said, it's not as if that 6-9 months is totally wasted, as you are still in the unit and doing training, ex's, etc.


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## trajectomologist (30 Nov 2004)

As every one else has said... it is total BS that someone at a recruiting centre has said something like that.
If you find no resolve with the recruiting centre in Kingston... come up to Ottawa.
I guarantee you that as Long gas you are a Canadian Citizen, there should be NO problems with you joining the CF.
granted to pass all the testing, checks and so-on.

Don't give up...  :bullet:


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## NavyGrunt (30 Nov 2004)

So I got a call from the recruiting centre today regarding my transfer- It is exactly 11mos today. The Cpl was a very nice guy who seemed keen to help me out- unfortunately he had only bad news. Seems one of the forms in application is an old version. So he MAILED me a new one(as opposed to me just driving over and signing the new one) and we cant book my medical until he gets ahold of my old medical file....so thats another month before I can go to BOOK my medical....so Ill book it in a month.....so in 2 mos Ill do my medical...and 3 mos it will come back.....and then in 2 more I might be in....so in total at the earliest my transfer will have taken 16mos.This system REALLY needs to be fixed.


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## RMCStudent (1 Dec 2004)

Is there like a Recruiting Zone Headquarters? I mean, the Recruitment Centre in Kingston has to be responsible to someone...


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## Morpheus32 (1 Dec 2004)

RMC Student,

Have you contacted the Captain directly to clarify his comments and the status of your file?  Do that first, if he says you can not join, drop me a line and I will help you resolve this but without know exactly what the issues is it is hard to offer advice.  Make sure you are clear what he is saying to you and make note of the points about the requirement for the security check.  Don't get lost in the "your a Canadian you have the right to apply" stuff.  It is emotion until we have facts to determine exactly what is at issue.  Like I said in my previous post, call him, confirm exactly what he said and ensure you have a clear understanding.  If at the end of the day he says he hates you, then drop me a line.  First clarify that it is not a misscommunication.  Remember he is correct if he told you that you require an extensive background check before you can join.  Citizenship has nothing to do with it and the requirements are mandated federally not by the CF.

If you have any questions, contact me directly.  Cheers

Jeff


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## 043 (1 Dec 2004)

Patience everyone. You are all reacting to second or third hand information. He will get in, I am sure of that. Heck, join the Engineers, we need hard working officers!

CHIMO


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## gozonuts (3 Dec 2004)

Horsesh1t!!! I personally knew a guy who was from Russia (then USSR) and he applied, and wrote the test the same time as I did and we were in the same unit that summer for training. This McBean guy is in the moc, and you should push this issue - the CAF expects people to roll over and not bother complaining and they usually get away with crap like this. Good luck commrade!


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## Morpheus32 (3 Dec 2004)

If a person is going officer, they have to be able to gain a secret clearance on recruitment.  A person going NCM is required to be able to gain a confidential clearance on recruitment.  The administrative requirements are different as noted in my other posts.  As I have said before, make sure it is not a misscommunication.  Very simple issue her so everyone relax with the emotions.  Work with facts not emotions.

Jeff


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## RMCStudent (4 Dec 2004)

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for your supportive message. Frankly, I need all the help I can get. Although I don't want to unnecessarily burden you with my problems, I will nevertheless explain in detail the way the Army is stonewalling my application. 

Facts.
Captain McBean: 
- He tried to stop me from applying by saying that Canadians born in countries that were formerly part of the Warsaw Pact cannot join the CF;
- It is only after I mentioned filing a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission that he panicked and accepted my application. He, nonetheless, said that the inquiry into my past will take two years or more;
- At the Recruitment Centre, he was abrupt, abrasive and verbally abusive (he kept calling me Soviet Union and stuff like that);

CDS:
- After I filed a complaint with the Human Rights Commission on the grounds of discrimination (since Canadians are treated differently according to their ethnic background) the CDS refused any negotiation and kept procrastinating by regularly changing their legal team every three months, by that indefinitely delaying a conclusion to my case;
- It is only after I wrote to Graham, in desperation, that things started to move. Suddenly, the Recruitment Centre began to take interest in my case, while the CDS sent their rebuttal to my accusations.

Captain McBean:
- He lied to the Commission and to the CDS by saying that he was desperately trying to contact me. 
- Although the inquiry might be justified (though I don't see why I have to be responsible for the political actions of a country I left) the Recruitment Centre he is running should have called me for a physical, psychological and medical exam.
- After one year, and because of Graham's interest in my case, the Kingston Recruitment Centre called asking for fingerprints. The fact that they asked me for a second set of fingerprints led me to believe that they discarded the first set along with my file.
- Because Romania (the country I was born in) is now part of NATO, and chiefly because the Romanians have an intelligence agreement with the Canadians, the inquiry should take 2-4 months not two years or more as McBean said it will.

Thank you.


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## Thaedes (4 Dec 2004)

Frankly, I find that hard to swallow.  I don't mean to be rude RMCStudent, but I've talked in depth with Captain McBean before, and the accusations of his conduct being anything less then whats expected of our officers in todays military is bizarre.

From reading your posts you appear to be livid with the whole process of recruitment so far.  I'll be completely forward with you; If you are going to let Red Tape make you pissed off, to the point where you appear to be letting it cloud your mind, then your going to have a helluva time getting into your MOC. I'm not saying you were not unfairly treated, but what I am saying is that Captain McBean is far to professional, far to honourable to have done, verbatim, what you have claimed.  Especially in the manner you have claimed he has.  

Best of luck to you, but remember simply that it is an honour and a priviledge to serve this country, not a right.


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## Mike Bobbitt (4 Dec 2004)

Just a quick reminder that it's OK to complain about someone here, and it's OK to use names, but not OK to do both. This thread has turned from a Recruiting question to a "Discussion of Capt. McBean's Character" and that's not appropriate for these means.

Let's keep it on track and hopefully the issue can be resolved.


Cheers
Mike


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Dec 2004)

Have to love it when a future officer resorts to character bashing whether the person deserves it or not. Stay away from the navy please.


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## Infanteer (4 Dec 2004)

...especially on an public forum with an anonymous username and an empty profile.  Real classy.

Perhaps this should just be chucked into the bin.


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## RMCStudent (4 Dec 2004)

Future officer? you gotta be kidding me, right... Not if McBean got a say in it...


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## RMCStudent (4 Dec 2004)

Oh, believe me, I'll stay away from the Navy...i wouldn't wanna end up on the Beatles' Yellow submarine


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## Infanteer (4 Dec 2004)

Sounds like the Recruiting Officer was on the right track....


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## Mike Bobbitt (4 Dec 2004)

We're completely off track now...


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Dec 2004)

Exactly...and who says the Recruiting System does not work?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Dec 2004)

Thread Locked
I think thats about enough, there lad. 
I think the good Capt. called this one right, sounds like he saw right though the kind of whiney person you are when the chips are down.
Good on him 
If you wish to fully identify yourself, maybe this could be opened again for a fair debate.

EDIT: 3 posts while I typed, I am slow


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