# Are We Wasting Our Effort?



## rounder (12 Jan 2006)

I am going to go one a bit of a rant here so please excuse me. My pressing question is what is the CF doing in Afghan? Are we "hunting the TB?" Are we providing humanitarian assistance in Kandahar? Are they patrolling the streets looking for "bad guys"? Are we actively providing training for the ANA in Kandahar? Why are there more Captains than Corporals? With so many Capt's running around I would figure they could at least figure out when our troops are coming home. Or maybe (and I think this is most likely" they are all there just absorbing time and tax dollars so they can go back to their respective messes and say they were there... they've got a star on their chest. Well I say to them "how many times did you leave the camp you fat bastard"? Thanks for F@#K all! I also find it funny how the HQ has a brandnew beautiful building to work out of but everyone else still has tents. So all in all we are spending millions of dollars so a few wankers can say they were there... thats what it seems like to me. I am open to people arguing the point, in fact I lookforward to it, it may just make me a little less bitter.

Thanks for listening to my rant!


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## CBH99 (12 Jan 2006)

Okay, a few things...

1.  Your a moron.

2.  The CF are doing all of those things in Afghanistan.  We have a detachment training the ANA.  We have forces that will be hunting down and carrying out offensive operations against the Taliban and other insurgents.  CF will also be patrolling the Kandahar area.  We will be intelligence gathering, using forces on the ground and assets in the air.  We'll also be doing humanitarian and development work in the form of our PRT.

3.  The reason there are so many officer staff is because:  a)  a majority of the training detachment is comprised of officers (Correct me if I am wrong),  and b) the task force is being commanded by Canada, which is why they have a new C2 dedicated building and staff.

Other than reading various other threads on this forum, not to mention the mass amounts of newspaper articles and online news articles;  any questions you'd like to include in your rant before one of the mods hopefully locks this up?


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## Good2Golf (12 Jan 2006)

Well, okay, I try and be kind here  : ....the guys are doing all you state and more...in less than a month there will be no less than 7 RTC's that folks will be living in...do you figure that you should have been in an RTC first and have the JOC working out of mod tent?  Perhaps you might ask some engr types to gain a greater appreciation for what a huge task it is getting Roto-0 infrastructure set up, especially given all the delays the US imposed on the guys in KAF?

BTW, when you say "more Captains than Corporals" are you stating a known fact (i.e. you have the Roto-0 TO&E in front of you) or are you saying this because you see a bunch of Captains beetling around doing stuff?

May I ask, is there something that is driving this rant in particular?  Do you feel as though you have been less supported in the TF than anyone else?  ???

Duey

_*edit* - ahhhhhhh....unless you have forgotten to update your profile, I see you are not even over here!  Perhaps you could inform yourself a little bit more before you make such an arse of yourself.

*edit 2* - OK, I will take Armyrick's post as proof you are at KAF...then my last two questions above my sig still stand.  Is there perhaps something you would like to suggest or propose through your chain to improve things that you think aren't happening correctly?  If you were sitting in the Comd's OGp this Sunday and saw the huge amount of work it is taking to not only continue setting the conditions for future ops but to ensure that folks are looked after as best as possible and the relief-in-place is run as effectively as possible, you might not be so quick to go off on the CoC!  You can either complain or contribute to the solution...your choice!
_


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## ArmyRick (12 Jan 2006)

Rounder is in afghanistan right now. CBH99, watch who your calling a moron. Stick to your weekend exercise expiriences. When people pass along what they see, then shut your yack and listen, don't insult the people who have been in theater.


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## Sf2 (12 Jan 2006)

I'm not over there, nor have I ever been.

you're allowed to rant - its an open forum.  And I could only imagine frustrations of those being forced away from their families.  But I think its a bit beyond the line to start attacking other ranks, specifically what you refer to as the fat **** captains.  Your resentment is only going to rub off on those around you, which will severely affect cohesion in your team, which degrades your ability to do the job.

Talk to your peers, talk to your supervisors about your thoughts, but in a professional manner, and not a whining child.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Jan 2006)

There's already REASONED discussion on the forum about this. As with anything military, and as most experienced supervisors are aware, if you come with a problem, you should have a workable solution.

Go to the other threads with this.


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## Cannonfodder (20 Jan 2006)

This is a very tragic waste , nothing was gained by this ,now one family has lost a father and 3 other lives have been destroyed.The Canadian Army must realize  that there is no defence against IEDs and now they are sending more to this area ,a fools folly .More vehicle traffic more potential for fatalities .  No amount of training will prevent these accidents they will just happen and there is very little one can do .However the current leadership is rather arrogant and aggressive ,a recipe for disaster . I feel extremely sorry for the families of the soldiers and the soldiers themselves.There lives have been ruined so a current government can gain favor in the international community.
  Afghanistan is an unconventional country , the Red Army could not tame it, are we arrogant enough to think that we will fair any better ?.Optimism and idealism   will only go so far, leave Afghanistan to the JTF they are the only unit equipped ,trained and suitable for this theater.


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## Acorn (20 Jan 2006)

Yep Cannonfodder. We can do so much more without risk. Afghanistan is going to be the rock on which our colonial ship founders.  :


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## Cannonfodder (20 Jan 2006)

Hey Piper , typical response from a Rupert  , explain unlimited liabity to these men when they have to deal with there injuries for the rest of there lives.This is a misguided mission  by incompetant leadership ,the only ones who benifit from these deployments are the commanders who recieve promotions at completion for mismanagement.We will fail where every other army that entered this theater.Unconventional situations demand unconventional solutions ,monies would be far better put to use  by purchasing weapons from the combatants.If the big RED machine could not straighten this one our prospects are bleak.God  , I can only imagine what the families are going through ,truely a waste  with nothing gained.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

:blotto:


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

> The Canadian Army must realize  that there is no defence against IEDs and now they are sending more to this area ,a fools folly



Yeaaaaa fuck it, lets go home.
And if they attack Canada we should surrender to them too.

If your going to call someone on being a "rupert" you should probably throw up your own military experience so people can critique you in turn. Other wise you should probably do some more reading and less posting.



> I can only imagine what the families are going through ,truely a waste  with nothing gained.



To  sound a little cliche ish, freedom isn't free.
This man gave his life. 3 other soldiers are injured.  Nothing gained?  Says you?
These guys were killed/injured doing something they believed in.  You're doing a good job at dishonouring them.



> the only ones who benifit from these deployments are the commanders who recieve promotions at completion for mismanagement.


You forgot the afghans whobennifit from our sacrifices.


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## Acorn (20 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Hey Piper , typical response from a Rupert  , explain unlimited liabity to these men when they have to deal with there injuries for the rest of there lives.This is a misguided mission  by incompetant leadership ,the only ones who benifit from these deployments are the commanders who recieve promotions at completion for mismanagement.We will fail where every other army that entered this theater.Unconventional situations demand unconventional solutions ,monies would be far better put to use  by purchasing weapons from the combatants.If the big RED machine could not straighten this one our prospects are bleak.God  , I can only imagine what the families are going through ,truely a waste  with nothing gained.



Jeez, three posts and a clear expert (unable to use the spacebar, but still an expert - clearly).

Son, your head is firmly in a box of preconceptions. Fair enough - you are neither alone, nor on the side most locked to those preconceived notions. Piper is a young Rupert, in need of guidance, but not "typical" at all.

You, however, are showing all the traits of a "typical" bitter ex infanteer. Also a selective use of history - a tip: you need to look at everything in context and stich it together into a coherent product. Thus far you've confined yourself to slander. If you have the miracle solution to Afghanistan you'd best get it in the public domain quickly.


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## career_radio-checker (20 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> No amount of training will prevent these accidents they will just happen and there is very little one can do .*However the current leadership is rather arrogant and aggressive ,a recipe for disaster* . I feel extremely sorry for the families of the soldiers and the soldiers themselves.*There lives have been ruined so a current government can gain favor in the international community.*
> Afghanistan is an unconventional country, the Red Army could not tame it, are we arrogant enough to think that we will fair any better ?.Optimism and idealism   will only go so far, leave Afghanistan to the JTF they are the only unit equipped ,trained and suitable for this theater.





> Hey Piper , typical response from a Rupert  , explain unlimited liabity to these men when they have to deal with there injuries for the rest of there lives.This is a misguided mission  by incompetant leadership ,the only ones who benifit from these deployments are the commanders who recieve promotions at completion for mismanagement.We will fail where every other army that entered this theater.*Unconventional situations demand unconventional solutions ,monies would be far better put to use  by purchasing weapons from the combatants*.*If the big RED machine could not straighten this one our prospects are bleak*.God  , I can only imagine what the families are going through ,truely a waste  with nothing gained.



Are you working for a political party trying to solicit soldiers' votes on an online forum? Or better yet, are you working for Al-Qaida?


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## vonGarvin (20 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Afghanistan is an unconventional country , the Red Army could not tame it, are we arrogant enough to think that we will fair any better ?.Optimism and idealism   will only go so far, leave Afghanistan to the JTF they are the only unit equipped ,trained and suitable for this theater.


The Red Army could not tame Afghanistan for a number of reasons.  They were there in a belligerent role.  We are not.  By this I mean that the USSR invaded the nation and attempted to suppress Afghanis.  NATO is not doing that.  As well, the Afghanis are not being armed by the US (as they were vs. the USSR).  So, let's not compare apples to oranges.  I mean, I highly doubt that the USSR had CIMIC teams, worked on infrastructure, or even health.  Brezhnev and the rest could not have cared less about Afghanis.  So, this is not 1980, this is some 26 years later, a different mindset, and we are not trying to occupy Afghanis: we are after "those in the mountains".
Now, to set the conditions for long-term peace in Afghanistan (or elsewhere, for that matter) requires much more than "JTF-2" or any other military action.  Political action is required.  Social action.  And, FYI, the JTF is NOT "...the only unit equipped, trained and suitable" for Afghanistan.  Heck, our Citizen Soldiers of WWII fought against the hardline fanatic 12 SS Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" from 7 June onward near Caen, and they gave better than we got.  The "pre-war permanent force regiments" were busy fighting Fallschirmjäger  _et al_in Italy.  So, "high speed commandoes" do of course have a role, but they are NOT the only ones to fight to win.  We need an effort across the spectrum, from CIMIC to mechanised infantry to health care professionals to RCMP ("CivPol") to JTF 2.
Just my $0.02 worth, and you get what you paid for.


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## Cannonfodder (20 Jan 2006)

Death and dismemberment are permanent , let that sink in for a while . When all the cameras are gone  and these soldiers get on with there daily lives , ask them if it was worth it  . Were  doing a good job over there but let us qaulify and qauntify what we are doing . Clear objectives and timelines need to be in place before you take on any project . Exposing your men to unspecified threat for for an unspecified time is irresponsible and unacceptable . The fact of the matter is that these incidents will continue because of mis guided leadership . 
  I feel no need to put my military experiance on the table  but I will tell you this , when the first  bullet  goes  by  your head , mortar round falls near you ,ask your self is this worth it ? . Remember the people that have the most to gain  , have the least  to lose .


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2006)

Quote,
_Clear objectives and timelines need to be in place before you take on any project ._

All respect to you about where you have been, however, by your statement above I guess my father and his comrades should have never got involved in that stupid World War 2 mess........


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## Armymedic (20 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

The risk is not unknown to us who serve. Incidents such as Sunday's reinforce them.

Thank you for your well thought out opposing view. Unfortunately, I feel this is not the appropriate place for your discussion. Perhaps the mods could put your opposition up on a different thread so we a discuss it further.


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## Cannonfodder (20 Jan 2006)

Non taken , but Afghanistan is an international experiment in nation building  not the Third Reich . Our ideals of how a society should run has  no relevance  in Afghanistan .


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jan 2006)

On Armymedics good advice, this has been split off from the original thread. I agree it was bad form to argue the merits of our mission there.
Thanks, Bruce


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## Cannonfodder (20 Jan 2006)

Sorry , I do not want to distress anybody , my opinion  differs from many on this board  . These families are going through hell with no end in sight . The media and the public will forget  and where does that leave these individuals , a disability check from VA and lifetime to be reminded of what happened . Iam sure some Politician or Military Officer will have a photo op with them at there expense."Good job troop , your doing alot of good over there, we are truely saddened by your loss " , kind of adding insult to injury . Mark my words  some members will make there careers on this , at these guys expense . What is NDHQ doing to remeady this situation ? .


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## Mike Bobbitt (20 Jan 2006)

What's adding insult to injury, I would imagine, is people questioning the mission and suggesting that a lack of leadership is to blame for these casualties. Think of how your comments affect the families and friends of those involved, or even the wounded themselves. Please stick to the facts and steer clear of laying blame based on speculation.

I think your suggestion that members of the CF will try to "make their career" out of this is reprehensible and irresponsible.


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## Armymedic (20 Jan 2006)

C/ M.Bdr. Banks said:
			
		

> I am also wondering how effective is the ballistic armour of the G-wagon (i.e. IED, mines, 7.62 rounds etc..). Would a Nyla have been safer? Thanks for any feedback



If you watch the briefings by Maj Withers, he gives up to date comprehensive briefings as to their conditions. doesn't get any better then those.

As for the armour protection of the LUVW, it is NATO level 3 which is designed to stop 7.62 rounds. It is not mine resistant, but will dissipate the blast better then an unarmoured veh.

Explosions cause damage from blast, heat, and fragmentation (causing burns and penetrations). Also there is secondary injury from fragments of surrounding items being tossed (penetrations), and tertiary injuries from the body being thrown (blunt force trauma like the 2 severely injured soldiers).

As for the Nyala...I am not an engineer, but in my opinion the fact that the veh was thrown 30+ ft shows that the veh rolling from the blast, and concussion did the damage (tertiary injuries) not the explosion itself, suggests anything less then a tank would have not prevented injury.


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## Jarnhamar (20 Jan 2006)

> I feel no need to put my military experience on the table



Military experience isn't a requirement to post here and having military experience doesn't mean someones opinion is more or less valued than someone who doesn't.

That said unless you decide to put YOUR experience out in the publics eye don't call people out on their own experience whether their an reserve officer, career NCM or recruit with 4 months time in.


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## combatcamera (20 Jan 2006)

> As for the Nyala...I am not an engineer, but in my opinion the fact that the veh was thrown 30+ ft shows that the veh rolling from the blast, and concussion did the damage (tertiary injuries) not the explosion itself, suggests anything less then a tank would have not prevented injury.



Gotta wonder why they're now sending 43 Nyala's over there Mach Schnell!  On ROTO 0, I think they only had one Nyala in theatre along with a sh*tload  of Iltis's.  I'm not an expert on sustained injuries or anything, but the latest attack was VERY effective. The bad guys will just add a few more rounds, or pounds of explosives next time.  That's pretty obvious.


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## Armymedic (20 Jan 2006)

combatcamera said:
			
		

> Gotta wonder why they're now sending 43 Nyala's over there Mach Schnell!



Because of the Ground Designation rules. Remeber, you can't move over ground that is not designated without a mine resistant veh. Nor can you drive, walk or anything else until it is designated...kind hard on a cbt patrol. The Nyala is the only mine resistant veh in our fleet in Afghanistan. 

Stick with pictures, Frank.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Post in poor taste at this time removed by Moderator.


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## Michael OLeary (21 Jan 2006)

cannonfodder, if you have nothing more than rhetoric to post than please at least have some respect and post it elsewhere while we are waiting to see three wounded Canadians repatriated to Canada.

If you wish to present yourself with any credibility here, please add some detail to your profile. Further posts in this vein will also be purged.

This is your warning, please see the Conduct Guidelines.


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## Mike Bobbitt (21 Jan 2006)

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there. For the record, Officers are soldiers too. You seem to have a pretty black and white view that all Officers are career yes men. While I can't deny that's the case in some situations, to make generalizations like this just shows a sad ignorance of how the CF operates.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Pretty much somes it up , the good get run out and I will not comment  on what you are left with .


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## Michael OLeary (21 Jan 2006)

Well, *we* seem to be left with about 9000 members who are trying to make this place a useful exchange of information, rather than a personal soapbox for bitter rhetoric. Stick around, read for a while, you might find the place has a use in that big picture of yours.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

waste of time


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Censorship is in effect


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## muskrat89 (21 Jan 2006)

> Censorship is in effect



Nooo.... a private site, with guidelines enforced per the owner's wishes is in effect   :   Knock it off or you will be cluttering up someone else's site


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## armyvern (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Censorship is in effect


Perhaps you'd call it censorship. I call it complying with the conduct guidelines (which isn't about what you post but rather how you post it). It's called respect for others and posting appropriately.

You'd do well to learn when and where to make appropriate comments to the thread. IMHO your going off on a tangent in a thread relating to injured soldiers is neither appropriate or called for.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

I only posted a differing opinion , a mind is like a parachute it works better when it is open . Members takes snipes , then you respond  and who wears it ?. Is this a discussion forum or a cheer leading section ? . Contrary to popular belief sometimes people have differant opinions and will express them from time to time .


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## armyvern (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> I only posted a differing opinion , a mind is like a parachute it works better when it is open . Members takes snipes , then you respond  and who wears it ?. Is this a discussion forum or a cheer leading section ? . Contrary to popular belief sometimes people have differant opinions and will express them from time to time .


You didn't just express an opinion. That's not the problem. You berated Officer's for no just reason with an assinine comment about them making careers of injured soldiers. Ergo the comments to you about broad brush strokes. Perhaps you should just take the lesson for what it's worth. If I had a bad experience with whatever(insert trade/rank of your choice here)...I don't slam them all and paint them all with the same brush, I'm bigger than that, and perhaps as a self-admitted unbiased individual...you should be to.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Unfortunately I think some have misinterpreted what I was saying . I only was commenting on the pain that families must be going through , Canadas role in Afghanistan and the qaulity of leadership in the military , nothing more . Any diegressions  were purely in response to snipes . Funny how for a democratic society we are so intollerant of opposing viewpoints.


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## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> .  I feel no need to put my military experiance on the table  but I will tell you this , when the first  bullet  goes  by  your head , mortar round falls near you ,ask your self is this worth it ? . Remember the people that have the most to gain  , have the least  to lose .



Yep,

I was all worth it for me, and I would do it again.  There does that answer your question.

You obviously post with experience that you speak about.  Would be nice to hear about it.  Opposing view points, on a military site.  For those that have served.  Are you angry at the system that serves us while we serve or the treatment afterwards??

dileas

tess


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## Mike Bobbitt (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Funny how for a democratic society we are so intollerant of opposing viewpoints.



Yes it is... you've refused to acknowledge any viewpoint but your own, while simultaneously providing nothing to back up your claims. So I'm puzzled as to why you are so intolerant of the experiences of those who have done the job.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Iam not intolerant  of those who serve , rather Iam frustrated that our military is involved in yet another not clearly defined mission .  I think this shows the little regard the government has for the military when you place someone in a situation without giving them the proper equipment and a clear goal . It appears we are being  used as window dressing to gain favor with the americans . Hell they were a route cause  of the problems that plague Afghanistan  but yet now it is our problem . If you make a mess clean it up.


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## big bad john (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Iam not intolerant  of those who serve , rather Iam frustrated that our military is involved in yet another not clearly defined mission .  I think this shows the little regard the government has for the military when you place someone in a situation without giving them the proper equipment and a clear goal . It appears we are being  used as window dressing to gain favor with the americans . Hell they were a route cause  of the problems that plague Afghanistan  but yet now it is our problem . If you make a mess clean it up.


I could better understand where you are speaking from if you filled out your profile a little more fully.


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## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2006)

How is it not clearly defined?  What would be proper equipment?  And the goal you speak of, what would you suggest we should do with Afghanistan?

And I would like to know, as a former soldier that was injured, how do you feel that you are speaking on behalf of people like me?  Or my Family?

This could be interesting if you elaborate, as opposed to throwing out caustic statements.

dileas

tess


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## Armymatters (21 Jan 2006)

Hiller did warn us that we will take casualties with this mission, as it isn't Kabul anymore; we are now heading into the heart of where the Taliban got their support from. And we have to do this mission in order for Afghanistan's stability, and world stability. We are giving our troops in Afghanistan the best equipment we can afford for them, but unfortunately, there is a point where all the money in the world will not prevent a casualty.


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## a_majoor (21 Jan 2006)

Censorship? Not really. This is what Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) has posted:



> ANOTHER UPDATE: Mister Snitch asks: "At what point did we become obliged to put up with obnoxious houseguests? Why would anyone care whether some ass thinks they are "engaging in censorship" because someone's attempt to derail a train of thought was moved off a blog? If the argument's good, the commenter can start his/her own blog for free, and do the work needed to get the word out. *If the argument stinks, why is it smelling up our blog?* Don't our other readers have ofalctory rights?"
> 
> posted at 01:27 PM by Glenn Reynolds Permalink



Sounds like a fine way to run a Blog or Forum to me.


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## from darkness lite (21 Jan 2006)

I am only going to enter this "debate" once. Cannonfodder, I am on the ground NOW in Kandahar City and have been for the last 6 months.  I know/knew everyone of our casualties, and I've run the same roads.  We all know the dangers (we don't like them, but we know them) but we do our job.  I'm not sure what kind of officers you've served under, but a good number of them here have actually impressed me, particularly when I compare them with some I've served with in the distant past.
Do I feel like I'm wasting my time over here, and that I wonder what my purpose is?  Absolutely not!!!!  Would I, and the majority of my colleagues come back?  Absolutely!!  I've seen remarkable progress here and I'm not about to let a few (and it is a few!) f**k heads screw this country up again.  Bottom line, I didn't sign up to be a "peacekeeper".

Cutting and running now would be a complete waste of the blood already shed for this country.

FDL

PS.  As for your American comments, I have a lot of respect for the US folks I've met here.  Hope to serve with them again


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

> Because of the Ground Designation rules. Remeber, you can't move over ground that is not designated without a mine resistant veh. Nor can you drive, walk or anything else until it is designated...kind hard on a cbt patrol. The Nyala is the only mine resistant veh in our fleet in Afghanistan.
> 
> Stick with pictures, Frank.



Armymedic,

I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.  I was in Afghanistan for the TAT in 2003.  I was there in 2004, in 2005, and I'm going again in March, 2006 - so I have a pretty good idea of the place.  Even driven through the "badlands" behind the Russian Officer's Mess in Kabul in "Toyota 11" when civvy pattern vehicles were an accepted way of getting around in 2003.  I felt safest in the Nyala though.  Too bad we only had one back then.

Stick with handing out the Cepacol.


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## vonGarvin (21 Jan 2006)

combatcamera said:
			
		

> Armymedic,
> 
> I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.  I was in Afghanistan for the TAT in 2003.  I was there in 2004, in 2005, and I'm going again in March, 2006 - so I have a pretty good idea of the place.  Even driven through the "badlands" behind the Russian Officer's Mess in Kabul in "Toyota 11" when civvy pattern vehicles were an accepted way of getting around in 2003.  I felt safest in the Nyala though.  Too bad we only had one back then.
> 
> Stick with handing out the Cepacol.


Hi Combatcamera
I too was on the TAT in 2003: with the D and S Coy.  Anyway, I digress.
The "new" nyalas have been in the works for some time, and it's probably coming to light moreso now due to last week's attack.  Anyway, the Nyala will have a Kongsberg RWS with a .50 cal on it, so it's more than a mine proofing vehicle, but rather a mine resisitant patrol vehicle.  I think it's being called an "Armoured Patrol Vehicle".  And fastball ain't the word!  VERY fast ball?  
Anyway, best of luck in March: keep your head up and watch your six
Hauptmann out.


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## Jungle (21 Jan 2006)

> I'm talking about the "timing" of the Nyala announcement here, and the fact that they are sending over so many (43) after the incident.


So, according to your logic, we should cancel the order ?? Yeah, it is very negative if it looks like the Nyala order is in reaction to suicide attacks...  :
It is sad that we are finally using those "lessons-learned" and getting mission-adapted eqpt.
About the censorship comment, do you also think that speed limits on highways are restricting your freedoms ?? There are rules on this site, as with everything else. Read them. If you don't agree with them, you are free to go away...  8)


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## Armymedic (21 Jan 2006)

combatcamera said:
			
		

> Stick with handing out the Cepacol.



Touche, Frank, Touche, :argument:

But you do know that current (last 3 months) events have nothing to do with the aquisition of these vehs (as opposed to the iltis/LUVW fiasco). Don't suggest otherwise as people here may just take that as gospel.


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## Armymedic (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Iam not intolerant  of those who serve , rather Iam frustrated that our military is involved in yet another not clearly defined mission .  I think this shows the little regard the government has for the military when you place someone in a situation without giving them the proper equipment and a clear goal .


Then on Monday when you vote, do not vote for the party that sends us on such missions without the equipment we need. They have only been doing for 13 yrs. That my friend is how democracy works.




> It appears we are being  used as window dressing to gain favor with the americans . Hell they were a route cause  of the problems that plague Afghanistan  but yet now it is our problem . If you make a mess clean it up.


While the window dressign comment might just be correct, it was not the USA who is the root cause of  those problems. Afghanistan has been a speed bump on the roads for invading armies since the time of Alexander. The current problems are mostly rooted in the British occupations in the 1800 when they arbitrarily drew the countries boundies lines in agreement with the Russians without considering ethinic diversity of the region. Those problems continued up thru the mid 1900's and continued past the loss of the King...then it all went bad.

Blaming the US for the world problems is the short sighted, populist, TV watching view, many of the issues we are still dealing with today are reprecussions of decisions made 1 or 2 centuries ago.


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2006)

:tsktsk:
Cannonfodder due to the code of conduct here I wont offer what I think of you.

But


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

Armymedic,

I'm glad you took that as the joke it was intended to be. Love the animated Gif ..... Good one!  

All I'm saying is maybe these purchases should be thought about ahead of time - before bad stuff happens.


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

> So, according to your logic, we should cancel the order ?? Yeah, it is very negative if it looks like the Nyala order is in reaction to suicide attacks...
> It is sad that we are finally using those "lessons-learned" and getting mission-adapted eqpt.
> About the censorship comment, do you also think that speed limits on highways are restricting your freedoms ?? There are rules on this site, as with everything else. Read them. If you don't agree with them, you are free to go away...



No, not at all.  What I AM questioning is why we are making these purchase announcements so late in the game?  If you saw the Reuters pics of the incident - the G-Wagon was opened up like using a can-opener.  I'm really surprised anybody survived at all.  It's the same scenario with the Sgt Short/Cpl Berenfinger incident.  Geez, didn't we get the friggin' G-Wagon's right after that, eh?


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## Sandbag (21 Jan 2006)

combatcamera

Please don't confuse PAFF "spin-doctoring" for the media with when and why we purchased these vehicles.  These vehs were identified well before this event, specifically to get them into theatre based on recces by commanders and their recommendations/needs.  What you should be lobbying for is more money so we can buy more of them or a replacement armoured patrol vehicle.  The bottom line is that it takes time to build, and they are not built in Canada, nor are we necessarily the most important customer.  (Money drives IMHO) In this case the NYALA are going right from factory to theatre, a first I believe and a good thing.  Can we use more?  Of Course (for those of you listening that can influence our budget!)


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## TangoTwoBravo (21 Jan 2006)

We have been studying the IED threat very hard for some time now and will continue to do so.  Armoured vehicles are certainly part of the solution, and we can expect to see continual improvements in that area.  Bear in mind, however, that the enemy is adaptive and nothing offers absolute protection.  Tactics, techniques and procedures must also be studied and employed as well.


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## Meatpuppet (21 Jan 2006)

Alright...Last time i was on here i was bitching about swearing to the queen...but the bottom line is..they are there..so they gots to cover oneanother....but here its a diff story...Cannon is right about one thing...we have our own issues here we need to deal with...not hide them with sum forgien hero thing.This is anglo against the world...same old crap..diff decade.But dont get me wrong...Ill back up my own...but IED's have no orders nor do they get scared...the world doesnt fight convent anymore...they fight dirty...cause its all about winning isnt it?....I belive Canada has been to isolated for far to long...we need our asses kicked big time or maybe not....but in need of sum serious experiance in wars...not enough veterns leading these guys....also..remember if britian is involved in something...we must also be involved...Like Iraq if the conservatives win..ahahaha...then you can be all small town frozzen heros you wanna be....To the families of those soldeirs that had to get fked up like that cause a IED....i,m truly sorry..."your son was a inspiration to all of us and a fine soldier"......man Canada needs it vietnam...wake up time...cheers.... God bless Canada..may she shine once again.


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

Sandbag,

Again, my point is the actual "purchases" should have been made WELL before any mission of this type.  Of course they take time and money.  Try selling your argument to the families of the injured soldiers or dead diplomat and see how far it flies.


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## TangoTwoBravo (21 Jan 2006)

All armies have difficulties against the IED threat.  Not to be an apologist, but new equipment takes time.  I rode around Kabul in an SUV, but we had made adjustments to our TTPs based on the attack on the Germans right before our roto.  The next roto had armoured GWagons.  The upcoming rotos will have the new patrol vehicles.  To be fair, we actually have comparatively good equipment for this threat when you look at other Western armies.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

More  Nyalas is a start but it is treating the symptoms not the source of the problem . Has anyone thought about purchasing weapons from the combatants ? . Kind of goes against  military logic but these are desperate acts conducted by desperate people . If you give them hope and a means to provide for there families they are less likely to become terrorists . Becoming an aggressor will only make you appear as a source of there problems . Yeah you are kind of rewarding the beligerants  but you can rapidly stabilize the situation . Say a hundred US dollars for an assault rifle or 15 for a grenade, hell you dont even have to give money commodities will due  a goat , clothing  ,firewood , heating fuel . Any sort of commodity that will alleviate suffering and will help the people regain there independance and dignity.


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

Methinks you misidentify the root cause of the problem.  IMHO, purchasing weapons will not solve the problem of IEDs and attacks, because the root of the problem is not one of poverty- it is one of ideology.  A suicide bomber is demonstrably not looking for a monetary payout.

I seem to recall that this "weapons purchase" program was tried in the Balkans.  I also seem to recall that all kinds of useless, obsolete and broken weapons were turned in for cash- without reducing one act of violence.

I prefer a program where we stabilize the situation, protect the decent humble folks from the wolves while local government gets on it's feet and begins to provide services and a vibrant economy begins to take shape- hey wait a minute!  That's what we are doing!

Cheers,


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Terrorism is an act of desperation , not ideology . People only succomb to the preposturous when they are faced with no other alternatives . People that have there needs taken care and prospects for a future  do not become terrorists . This is where the war  on terror is mis guided ,  terrorism thrives in areas where people see little other options . Poverty and a perception of injustice , is the true route of terrorism . Northern Ireland , Palestine  , Saudi  Arabia , Nigeria , Egypt etc... , are examples of this , to paint it with an ideology brush  is  over simplifying the situation .


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

> Say a hundred US dollars for an assault rifle or 15 for a grenade



So if these guys can get an AK from some supplier in Pakistan for $7 and we buy them at $100 what are the chances that everyone and their 16 brothers are going to flock to these black market arms dealers and buy everything they can get their hands on because when they sell them to the us they make a $93 profit?

Arms dealers get rich.  every day civilians start carrying weapons to try and sell. Weapons FLOOD Afghanistan. We wast money on resources.

In the end the people who benefit most are the guys illegally bringing weapons into the country.

Just consider what would happen if police agencies buy drugs off people at inflated prices.  Is it going to remove drugs from the street or increase them by 1000%

Bad idea.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

> Terrorism is an act of desperation , not ideology . People only succomb to the preposturous when they are faced with no other alternatives . People that have there needs taken care and prospects for a future  do not become terrorists



Disagree with this. 
I just watched a program on TV about a white woman from a well to do family who started dating an islamic zealot type guy.  She had everything going for her. Long story short he brainwashed her into blowing herself up as a suicide bomber. I think it said she was the first white female suicide bomber in iraq or something.   Sounds more like someone following an ideal than an act of starving desperation.

Aren't you getting a bit ahead of yourself telling us what exactly terrorists are and how exactly they are made?


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## Haggis (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Northern Ireland , Palestine  , Saudi  Arabia , Nigeria , Egypt etc... , are examples of this , to paint it with an ideology brush  is  over simplifying the situation .



The IRA, a Christian terrorist organisation, never employed sucide bombers (not deliberately anyways.  Some IRA "operatives" inadvertently blew themselves up.)  All the other locales you identlfy are Islamic.  Does that not undermine your "not ideology" argument?  OBL is a very wealthy man, so are many of his followers.  Where's the desperation angle with them?



			
				Ghost778 said:
			
		

> In the end the people who benefit most are the guys illegally bringing weapons into the country.



Quite true.  Following the weapons "buy back" in the Balkans, succesive rotos saw an increase in the quality and sophisitcation of weapoins being seized (as opposed to turned in) from folks, some of whom participated in the "buy back" program.  Clearly, the "buy back" money was reinvested in new weapons.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Ghost ,take a look at the situation , Afghanistan is awash in weapons . Pay the going rate for the weapons it will have more results in less time than any other actions . Unconvential  situations demand unconvential solutions this is a radical departure from traditional military mind set . More  weapons will be pulled out of circulation  ,  you will be able to identify  Arms dealers and  shut them down .


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## Meatpuppet (21 Jan 2006)

Ok...I,m not deffending Cannon...he can do it himself...but we are talking about women!!!!.....Men can convince women to preety much do anything...I for 1 know this..GULIT is a powerfull tool!....so it doesnt surprise me....as a matter of fact..we will probably see more of it....(caucasian women)....remember Ghost they had suicide bombers in korea...vietnam...and on....male and females...Remeber Islam is like every other religion or organized Ideal...its a brainwasher...when used properly.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

I still think it's a bad idea.  It's a matter of supply and demand.
People will go out of their way to find weapons in order to selll this increasing the demand for them. Suppliers will react and dump even MORE weapons into theater.

In bosnia some of us had the bright idea of rewarding kids with box lunches when they would turn in grenades. The higher ups shut us down fast.  The last thing they wanted were children trying to find UXOs and grenades and carrying them to us to trade for food.   Way too dangerous for the kids.

Your idea is the same. You would have children digging around for bombs and grenades putting them at SERIOUS risk in order to turn them in for money.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

A mind is like a parachute , it works better when it is open . Unfortunately if we succomb to this ideology arguement we will never solve the problem . Western nations send the message everyday to the islamic world  that the human rights of your people are not as important our standard of living . Do what you want but just keep sending us oil so we can live in luxury at your peoples expense . No ideology there , just  a distribution of wealth problem . People that have reasonible qaulity of life simply do not become terrorists.


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## Meatpuppet (21 Jan 2006)

It will only get worse before it gets better!


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

Hmmm?  Didn't know Afghanistan had any oil?  Thanks for enlightening us.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

Meatpuppet it's neat how you and cannonfodder agree but have *obvious* different posting styles and personalities.  Kinda same names too and joined around the same time.  Now when have I seen that before?  :

Replying to your message where you're not defending cannon but agreeing with him,
Men can convince women to do anything and women can convince men.  Both are equally stupid when it comes to the other sex.  The comment was that terrorism wasn't an ideal but an act of desperation.  My post reflected that this woman didn't have a hard life leaving her desperate a la some dirt farmer with no way left to feed his family so out of desperation he blows himself up so his family gets $50.  This woman wasn't desperate in the traditional sense. Sure you can beg the question and say maybe she was desperate for his love or approval or some garbage but thats arguing semantics.

It's a little lofty saying terrorism is only carried out by individuals and not by someone with ideals.   You mean to tell me these terrorists are traveling to Iraq from all over the world because they are desperate for food or money or whatever?
Nope.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

> People that have reasonible qaulity of life simply do not become terrorists.



And what are you basing this statement off of?

Can the american soldier who fragged his own officers be considered a terrorist? Did he commit the act out of religious ideas or desperation because he wanted a better quality of life?
The girl who came from a well do to family? She gave up her quality of life to follow her boyfriend around.
Hundreds of other examples you can dig up of wealthy people both supporting and carrying out acts of terrorisim. Turning their back on their quality of life to follow an idea.

Cannonfodder, you commented on how poor the leadership in the Canadian forces is without stating any military experience.  Thats like saying a car is a piece of shit without ever having drove it.

You're commenting on who terrorists are and their motives behind terrorisim without any practical backround on the subject.  I'm assuming you've never been in a theater since you suggested we pay children to pick up grenades or it's okay to line the pockets of arms dealers.

You're WAY out of your lane dude.


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Religion is a tool used by some to manipulate the masses . Religions generally recruit followers when they are a low state in there life  , they  give them hope of a better future . Being that they are at rock bottm in there lives they are susceptable to mind control , they generally approach disaffected young men . Desperate acts being carried out by desperate people , give them an alternative and hopefully they will take it .  Of course Afghanistan has no oil  but in general The Muslim world is rich in oil reserves , and that was were my previous arguement lies .


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

Ghost778 is right.  What grade are you in?


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Ghost , it is obvious that you do not listen a half as much as you speak . Let the forum know that I did at no time advocate that childern turn in hand grenades .  Being that I was in the Infantry for seven years  , twice  to Yugoslavia  [ 2 PPCLI C Coy 1993 , 1PPCLI C Coy 1994 ] , have travelled extensively through the third world as civilian  ,  I feel that  allows me to comment on the  Military . Perspective  is a some of your experiances it appears  that you seem resolute to name calling  and jumping to conclusions . Read my posts again I only state a differring opinion  that is in controvention to yours  , you offer no solutions , care to elaborate ? .


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## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2006)

> 1PPCLI C Coy 1994



Get out!  What camp were you in on that tour?

dileas

tess


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

> [ 2 PPCLI C Coy 1993 , 1PPCLI C Coy 1994 ]



Now that's weird?  Were you in the reserves?


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## the 48th regulator (21 Jan 2006)

combatcamera said:
			
		

> Now that's weird?  Were you in the reserves?



What does that have to do with anything?

dileas

tess


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

> What does that have to do with anything?



The bad spelling kinda tipped me off!


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## Mike Bobbitt (21 Jan 2006)

Let's not turn this into a Reg vs. Reserve bashing thread. There's no need to be ignorant, let's get back on topic folks.


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

That's what the smiley faces are for Mike.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder, I didn't offer any solutions because I don't have any.  Fixing Afghanistan isn't in my lane. 

Agreed you did not specifically "advocate that children turn in hand grenades" however as a soldier who has been there you ought to realise that a very large portion of people who would turn in munitions as per your example would infact be children.  Aside from the negative supply and demand issue that would result, people playing around with explosives is just bad all around. No doubt you would also be paying $100 for antique weapons from before the Russians were there- it just doesn't seem like a very effective solution.   Like I said I don't have a solution. I think Canadians in Afghanistan doing what they are doing right now is going to 'fix' it for lack of a better word.

Use common sense. You came on a military forum and started sharing your perspective about shitty leadership in the CF without giving us a credible backround.  As a former soldier you should well know that you need to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to this. You might as well have been a 13 year old who regurgitates what he's read on forums.

Your military experience allows you to rightly comment on leadership in the CF, though depending on when you got out your perspective might be a little dated. Traveling the world gives you a good perspective about terrorism though what's going on in Afghanistan and Iraq is probably different than 'terrorism' in Africa or such so it depends where you've been.

I'd even say the terrorism found in Afghanistan is different than whats found in Iraq.  I still think it's impossible to say exactly what causes terrorism in a single word IE desperation.


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## gnplummer421 (21 Jan 2006)

My 2 cents,

I'm sure that the soldiers of today realize the risks that they are asked to take. They probably don't care about the politics of things, only that they look out for each other as they take on missions, and do the best they can do with what they are given. There were quite a few Canadian killed in the 911 blasts, and so we are there to seek out those responsible for this heinous act and all who follow that philosophy, with the hope of eradicating these so called "terrorist" (cowards) We will take casualties and some will die, but that is the nature of war, and that is what this is...war. 

Gnplummer421


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

gnplummer421 said:
			
		

> My 2 cents,
> 
> I'm sure that the soldiers of today realize the risks that they are asked to take. They probably don't care about the politics of things, only that they look out for each other as they take on missions, and do the best they can do with what they are given. There were quite a few Canadian killed in the 911 blasts, and so we are there to seek out those responsible for this heinous act and all who follow that philosophy, with the hope of eradicating these so called "terrorist" (cowards) We will take casualties and some will die, but that is the nature of war, and that is what this is...war.
> 
> Gnplummer421



Jeezus, you should work for Public Affairs with lines like that!


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

What I dont want to see is a prolonged deployment that see our troops static and vulnerable . It is a slippery slope when you start taking an offensive role . We will need to increasingly rely on Americans for our intelligence , our military does not have soldier translators  , this reliance on Americans for information can be the cause of some severe mistakes . We want to play ball but unfortunately we lack the proper equipment to make well informed decisions , leadership should recognize this and remedy the situation .
  The frontline soldiers will bear the effects of this eagernous to get involved in a situation that we may not fully comprehend  and are fully equipped to deal with . An adequate concensus needs to be taken of how we should approach this situation. A dialogue needs to be established with Iran and there participation however scary to the US  is pivotal in securing the security of Afghanistan . By the way , I have been to Iran and it is not as scary a place as the US media would  portray . Muslim participation is fundemental to any solution .


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2006)

FWIW - to add some fact to this discussion...

The UN has DDR folk (Disarmament, Demobilization, Reintergration) - local Afghanis, and from ones I have seen typically older Mujahadeen who fought the soviets - out in the territories/provinces that are buying up weapons from the populace.  This is workign in a lot of areas (some folk here will know where my experience with this issue comes from...)

 However there are BRAND NEW Iranian made AK-47/AKM rifles that are being supplies to the insurgent populace for FREE.  Given that some will obviously be mercenary, and have sold these weapons on the market (hint I've seen them still in packing grease).  However there are tons more and readily available new ones get delivered regularily.  Some are Chinese but most ones I have seen recvently are Iranian (not just AK's but larger more sophisticated systems too - some even "alledge" MANPADS...).


Naturally any top down approach forced upon the populace will not work - however the US ARG (Afghan Reconstruction Group) is working in concert with many NGO's, the UN, and coalition military to provide a safe and secure environment so that reconstruction can take place.
   This is a parallel the the CF/Cdn Gov't Triple D concept.

Cannonfodder - your arguments wrt what happend in Crotia/Bosnia are not relevant in this issue.


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## gnplummer421 (21 Jan 2006)

I don't want to offend or anything, but I'm under the understanding that our JTF2 operators and CSIS field officers are gathering quite a bit of intelligence over in A-stan. In addition, our surveillance equipment is state of the art, and I don't believe we rely on the yanks as much as you indicate. Sure we don't have as many resources as our friends to the South, but I'm pretty sure we do ok with intel. and our responce to that intel. To sum up, I think that as Canadians we are a multicultural society and I'm betting we probably have a few people in uniform who can get by with regards to translation.

Gnplummer421


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## 3rd Herd (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder, I have been reading you posts of this thread since you first began. My initial reaction was to tear you a new fifth point of contact but I realized that would be an emotional response not a rational one. In keeping with the guidelines of this site I have held my breath, gone for several long walks and have had a few late nights thinking of a way to properly respond So here it is..........

Death and dismemberment are permanent , let that sink in for a while . Yes you are right it has been a daily part of my life for the last twenty five years. I also recall one of my early battleschool lectures about being adaptive and using one's initiative. To this end I have received two degrees and am about to commence on a third. Besides, the academics I have about twenty years experience working in both the public and private sectors. In a varriety of occupations including  some TI with a major IHO. When all the cameras are gone  and these soldiers get on with there daily lives , ask them if it was worth it  . Speaking from twenty five years worth of experience You Bet.This based on twenty five years worth of experience and it seems this has been the most asked question over these last twenty five years. In responding to the question  most of my audiences have walked away with a new enlightenment on the out look of life, several have out right admitted that they could not have done it .Hey when your the best of the best 'the tough get going' Were doing a good job over there but let us qaulify and qauntify what we are doing .To this I do not have have enough first hand experience on but based on my experience (in country vs out country) my training and expertise saved the lives of four children, one adult and I lost two adults which in the intervening years I have finally realized yes there was nothing I could do to prevent there loss, a little more closure  Clear objectives and timelines need to be in place before you take on any project . Ever heard the term over planning, you can arm chair quarter back almost anything to death or try and plan for every proverbial IF. A waste of time better spent trying to achieve ration goals based on the best intelligence at hand. Exposing your men to unspecified threat for for an unspecified time is irresponsible and unacceptable. No that is what most us understood when we accepted the Queen's shilling. Afterall Keegan describes battle as being a confrotation on a constantly fluid and changing environment. And for some of us the uncertain nature is addictive as drug, wrong no just a facet of human nature. The fact of the matter is that these incidents will continue because of mis guided leadership . Depends on who you are talking about. In the military purview there are numerous checks and balances some based on performance standards others per based. Occasionally as with any system the odd unsuitable will slip through. The USMC does have a term for this in which I believe they refer to the individual as a 'slimy basta*d' and as with the Canadian CF once discovered are sent packing.
  I feel no need to put my military experience on the table[this I have to question, with some of us on the site it is done to establish their mark the same as a dog pissing on a tree a purly again human response, with me I like to see it so I can use it to properly frame a response to an inquiry]   but I will tell you this , when the first  bullet  goes  by  your head , mortar round falls near you ,ask your self is this worth it ? Again here I am not based on experience to render an accurate opinion but from what I have learnt on this site and from taking the time to ask well thought out questions from various members, yes unaquivilby yes. Remember the people that have the most to gain  , have the least  to lose . As to this statement of yours I put it down to an emotional not rational thought response. 

Now in regard to your last posts you are showing some rationality verses emotion well done. That is what I have come to find this site is about, rational well thought out debate rather than an emotional verbiage. You are right in expressing an opinion but base it on fact rather than a computation of 'old wives tales and second hand gossip'.

To another new member 'Meatpuppet' thank you for shorting your post to one syllable words and basic sentences. Your grammer spelling  and punctuation was killing me. But it is not going to get you any further as I believe the guidelines state constructive posts.

My apologies to the site owner and the mod's for taking up more than my two cents. I will endeavor to be less eloquent in the future

Edit: spelling and grammer


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## combatcamera (21 Jan 2006)

> gnplummer42I don't want to offend or anything, but I'm under the understanding that our JTF2 operators and CSIS field officers are gathering quite a bit of intelligence over in A-stan. In addition, our surveillance equipment is state of the art, and I don't believe we rely on the yanks as much as you indicate. Sure we don't have as many resources as our friends to the South, but I'm pretty sure we do ok with intel. and our responce to that intel. To sum up, I think that as Canadians we are a multicultural society and I'm betting we probably have a few people in uniform who can get by with regards to translation.



Gnplummer421, 

This is too good!  What planet did you beam down from?


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2006)

GP421 -- I'm not sure if that comment was aimed at me, but for all intensive purposes the Afghan gov't in conjunction with US ARG directs what is going on in Afghan.
 The CF has members in similar postions (to ARG positioning) just tons less in the SAT (the members can expand on that if they wish).

 The Coaltion has numerous avenues open to it.   Keep in mind that the active Cdn AOR is tiny in respect to Afghan as a whole -


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## gnplummer421 (21 Jan 2006)

Why from the one beside Uranus called Myanus, but I think my molecules got scrambled when I materialized here on Earth, which hopefully explains my ramblings.. ;D

Gnplummer421


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## gnplummer421 (21 Jan 2006)

Nope sorry it was response to Cannonfodder...don't mean any disrespect..I'm just opinionated, which gets me in trouble sometimes.

Cheers,

Gnplummer421


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## Cannonfodder (21 Jan 2006)

Kevin B , obviously you have never read what I wrote  and are jumping to conclusions . At no time did I draw parallels between the Balkan wars and Afghanistan . I only stated my background  upon being asked what my experiences were . There is  no sure fire solution to Afghanistans problems however the only time we hear about Afghanistan is when something horrendous happens  . Unfortunately  it appears now that Afghanistan has some stability  the international community feels no need to finish the job . The situation has been contained on to some where else . Conflicts may change  , reasons  why , background information , the end game is always  to get the country back up and running .


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## NL_engineer (21 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,
 If money was the only problem in Afghanistan and Iraq, they would have been solved. Terrorism is not about money; look at the IRA, they are not all poor: FYI what do you think the Germins called the Resistance fighters during the second world war? If you look at any definition of terrorism money is not there. It will include oppression and maybe religion. If you look at some of the extream Islamic people they see us as infidels, if we gave them money they would probably throw it on the ground and spit on us.

Take a look at terrorism through out history, on all sides.

just to help here are some definitions: from Thorndike & Barnhart second edition.


> Terrorism
> 1. the use of terror
> 2. Condition of fear and submission produced by fighting people
> 3. method of opposing a government internally through the use of terror
> ...



just my 2 cents


edited because it posted before I was finished


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## pbi (22 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> This is a very tragic waste , nothing was gained by this ,now one family has lost a father and 3 other lives have been destroyed.
> 
> Thanks for passing your judgement on the sacrifices made by these people: diplomat and soldiers alike. I'm sure the families appreciate it. (In fact, I heard one of the mothers express the exact opposite sentiments...) How typical of the negative side of the  Canadian psyche: nothing is worth a sacrifice; if things get difficult, let's quit, etc, etc.
> 
> ...



There is no ultimate defence against every kind of IED: that is true. However, there are many different defenses against different types of IEDs. They are as effective as the training, equipment and professionalism of the troops who apply the measures. I can assure you if conditions in Afgh are anything like when I was there in 2004/05, as many IEDs are caught or fail, as actually kill anybody. The more effective the intelligence, the more active the patrolling, the closer the relationship with locals, the higher the chances of detecting and stopping the people who plan these things. Will we stop them all? No. But then, we couldn't stop all the Korean bullets in the 1950's, nor all the German bombs in the 1940's. In fact we've never been able to take away all the risk (or even most of the risk...) in alot of places we've served/ That's why it takes soldiers to carry out these tasks: they're dangerous. And that observation in no way cheapens the risks, sacrifices and losses we've taken in Afgh.



> .However the current leadership is rather arrogant and aggressive ,a recipe for disaster . I feel extremely sorry for the families of the soldiers and the soldiers themselves.There lives have been ruined so a current government can gain favor in the international community.
> Afghanistan is an unconventional country , the Red Army could not tame it, are we arrogant enough to think that we will fair any better ?.Optimism and idealism   will only go so far, leave Afghanistan to the JTF they are the only unit equipped ,trained and suitable for this theater.



I suspect you have very little useful idea of what you are talking about: most of this last paragraph is, IMHO, just rubbish.

Cheers


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## Cannonfodder (22 Jan 2006)

PBI , what do you think will be achieved in the near , mid-term and long term future ? . Instead of running down others ideas offer some solutions .  Defend the statusquoe no matter how screwed up , these IED incidents are unacceptable  if the current leadership wants to increase its numbers while becoming more aggressive your  building more pretexts for further incidents . Keep doing the same things and getting the same results ,  really smart . More  training ? ,why dont you give the troops safety blankets ? , for all the good it will do . Irregulars are highly dangerous because of there unpredictable nature , training will help to a point but will only slightly reduce the risk .
    There is no gameplan in the Canadian public for Afghanistan , if there was  losses would be more easily accepted . I will get back to my previous statements that it appears our mission no matter how ambitious is mearly window dressing to gain favor with the US . In fact  the will by the international community  to finish the job in Afghanistan is waning , containment seems to be the end game . 
   Posturing in the media by the CDS  is  alarming  , if you want to go to war , go to war   , he just seems  to be trying to score points with his troops . Exposure to risks with out clearly lined objectives is inherantly foolish , and yes a recipe for disaster. Funny how those who have never expierianced combat are so willing to commit others to the fray . Iam sure he will write a book about leadership after he retires , comment on military  affairs on the CBC . How are you going to fight  a ghost ? , no army has ever defeated a guerilla force , ever ... . 
  To say soldiers are aware of the risks after these incidents  is condecending ,  a slap in the face . Risk awareness is one thing dealing with the results is another . I respect our soldiers  as I was once one , they deal with some horrendous situations , they place there faith in the leadership  and on this one I think the leadership is leading them into an ambush . Reason and logic  are never involved in military decision making  , we shall see the results .
  Fortunately now that  Iam no longer  in the army  I do not have to listen to the leadership of our military . The system rewards those that obey ,and punishes those that disobey . There in lies the conflict  , a person will be reprimanded for making judgement  calls that are in controvention to orders . Who suffers  not the commanders they get posted to Ottawa and come back a bigger fish .


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## SeaKingTacco (22 Jan 2006)

> How are you going to fight  a ghost ? , no army has ever defeated a guerilla force , ever ... .



Umm, you may wish to do some reading about the British in Malaysia in the 1950's, dude.

Not that I expect you will, because you seem to have pretty much everything figured out and don't need any of us telling you how things are. Pretty much all that you want to do is argue.  You are clearly not interested in thinking intelligently about anything that many of the posters on this board have to say.  And many of them are actually, or have recently been on the ground, in Afghanistan.  Most of them have been more polite to you than you deserve as you continue to rant about I'm not exactly sure what, except that IEDs are bad, the CDS is incompetent and if everyone in Afghanistan had a million dollars tomorrow, the world would be a safer place.  Oh yeah, and guns are bad.

Have I about summed up your arguments, so far?

Good day to you, sir.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,
Well smart guy, give us your game plan.[ and not that stupid weapons buy-back thing, hell that can't work in TO for Pete's sake]
...and since I have no tours and was an NCO [therefore not tainted by ambition in your mind] my perception is WIDE open.


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## Acorn (22 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

Something you should consider doing is a study of terrorists and terrorism. You are patently wrong if you think economic disadvantage creates terrorists - the 19 who conducted the 9/11 attacks are instructive. A terrorist is made by a grievance and an *ideology*. 

The soldiers are more aware of the risks than you think, and most are well aware of the reasons why we are there. That the Canadian public aren't aware (as you've amply demonstrated) of either the risks or the reasons is a reflection of the government - and it should be no surprise given the election.

Your broken record of insulting the CF leadership isn't impressing anyone here. "Reason and logic are never involved in military decision making...?" From where I sit the "reason and logic" deficit is more in your court. 

I'm well to the north of 20 years service (in the Ranks, not as an officer) including as an Infantryman. I've seen most of the good and bad of CF leadership, commissioned and non-, up to some pretty high levels. I think your characterization is not only insulting, but wrong.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> ...There is  no sure fire solution to Afghanistans problems however the only time we hear about Afghanistan is when something horrendous happens  . Unfortunately  it appears now that Afghanistan has some stability  the international community feels no need to finish the job . The situation has been contained on to some where else . Conflicts may change  , reasons  why , background information , the end game is always  to get the country back up and running .



Cannonfodder...the only bit of your missive that is correct is the last bit about getting the country back up and running. 

Read the news now and you will see that your earlier statement about the international community feeling no need to finish the job is ABSOLUTELY WRONG!  

In seven days, Tony Blair will host President Karzai and Koffi Anan along with other world leaders in London to set out the future development path of Afghanistan.  I have been working the last five months embedded directly into the Afghan government working on a project to develop Afghanistan, over the next 15 years, into a prosperous, contributing member of the global community.  We have worked with Afghans developing a National Development Strategy ( see http://www.ands.gov.af ) to address both the short term development issues (the next five years), and the long term (by 2020) through aiming to achieve the UN Millennium Development Goals, MDGs.

3rd herd and others have more than adequately addressed your critique, so I won't go there.

It is through your own ignorance that you risk being placed on others "ignore list".....

Duey


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2006)

Civilians, career ncm's, officers, serving soldiers and retired ones.   Soldiers who have been to Afghanistan, soldiers who haven't.  Even soldiers who have been injured over there ("Ask them if it was it worth it?") all seem to feel your in the wrong Cannonfodder. Not in a small way either it seems.
You've accused a few of us of not even reading your posts and basically just ignoring anything that's not our own perspective.

Have you considered taking a look at your own argument and re-evaluating your own perspective?

Could it be a case of johnny being the only one in step because of something happening to you while you served? Something caused you to go from one extreme to the other?


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## pbi (23 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder: the points I would have made have largely been put forward by the other posters below, so I won't plough them over again.

I will grant you an additional point: that the Canadian public, despite a high mission profile, a number of very clear statements by the CDS (and other military leaders) and by the Govt, and fairly close media coverage (for Canada...) are still not as well informed about the situation in Aghanistan, what we have been doing there, or why we continue to hold a stake in that country, as they should be. I don't blame the military (or really even the Govt, this time) for this: people pay attention to whatever they want to, and interpret it however they wish. You (apparently) are in the group that doesn't really care about the facts, but merely puts a negative interpretation on everything, citing spurious comparisons to the failed Soviet campaign in Afghanistan, etc.

Will Afghanistan ultimately be a success? Who knows: that is up to the Afghans. Will it be free of terrorists? Probably not. But Spain, France, Greece and (for a long time...) the UK have all lived with domestic terrorism-countries can do it. If our interests include a secure and stable West Asia (and I believe that they do), then doing our part to bring stability to that region is far from a wasted effort. In area where five (and, potentially, six...) nuclear powers have interests, stability is a valuable quantity. Is the Army the only answer to Afghanistan's problems? : no-and all soldiers realize that. But we are a key part of the solution, because without security and stability the answer to my first question becomes much dimmer.

Finally, it seems to me that what really motivates much of your comment is not a real desire to understand Afghanistan, or our role there, or what the campaign plan goals are, but rather to peddle some very bitter opinions about the Canadian military, leadership in particular. I wonder if you have met, or served under, any of the current crop of senior leaders the Army has today? Are they all supermen or angels? No, but they are a whole hell of a lot better than much of what I have seen throughout my service, and a goodly number have already served in Afghanistan and other operations. BGen Devlin, for example, was wounded in Bosnia.

My guess is that your past experiences have totally soured you on the Army.

Cheers


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## regulator12 (23 Jan 2006)

This is a good discussion, i just wanted to add something about stability and security in Afganistan. I know its one mans voice but on the news last night(ctv) they interviewed a afgan man, whos son was killed in the last suicide attack. He of course cant see why the Canadians are there and thinks that security is bad over there. I know this is one mans view, i dont know what the peoples views are over there. I just wonder what  the peoples views of Canadian troops are over there. Do they feel safe, has security tightened, reports say that violence in that region is at its highest since 2002, is this true? Anyone with experiance over there can ellaborate would be great.


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## KevinB (23 Jan 2006)

???

Have you been reading all our comments?  Several of us are over here.

WRT to the CTV interview - I did not see it (our TV is kinda limited) however everyone I have met while wearing a Cdn flag has had something positive to say about us - from our friendlyness to our willingness to help those in need etc.   

YES attacks are up, there are two main reasons for this 1) the Opium Erradication Programs are underway, this is driving the Warlords and other assholes a wee bit angry as their cash is taking a hit.  2) Coalition Forces are pushing the OMF (Outlaw Militia Factions - what we called them here last year apparently this year we have a new name  :) from some of their favourite rocks.  

Now either the Coalition will weather the storm and resultant casualties (I have no doubt the US will), or some countries will pack their bags and leave - abandoning the Afghans to civil war.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jan 2006)

Kev, latest term is ACM, anti-coalition militia...same stuff, different pile.

It certainly seems as though some folks are not taking the time to read what some of us over here are saying.  

I've had no less than four guys in the office I work in say they want to come to Canada to get an education and come back here because Canadians are so helpful over here...that's good enough for me that we're doing the right thing!

Cheers, 
Duey


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## regulator12 (23 Jan 2006)

You summed it up good KevinB. With regards to the news broadcast, that sort of broadcast paints a picture in Canadians head i am sure. Its hard for us sometimes to see the truth when the media focuses on just one aspect. We never hear on the news the good things that do happen over there. It s unfortunate as it misleads the public. But i guess thats what the news does, controversy, never the whole picture. 
Keep up the good work over there.
Pete


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## Jarnhamar (23 Jan 2006)

A suicide bomber killed his son.  In my books that leaves one person responsible. Not a country who is spending tons of cash to improve their quality of life.  Not to mention our own soldiers dying there as well. Or the community projects our soldiers do or the doctors we have over there doing their magic.

Canadians don't murder people in public executions.  We don't blow ourselves up in crowds of men women and children.  We don't kill people who refuse to help us. 

Lets keep the 'why are Canadians even here!' comments from a father who just lost his son in perspective.


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## regulator12 (23 Jan 2006)

I wasnt using what that guy said to ask why canadian are there. I asked people who are over there if what he said is a general feeling over there or if its one mans view. I had asked a question and got an answer from Kevin. I wasnt questioning the reasons Canada is over there. 
Pete


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## Cannonfodder (23 Jan 2006)

Okay , my prejudices or observations of the qaulity of leadership will cease . I will limit my self to questions , How do you identify the terrorists ? , What type of training did the units going there to do prepare  for operating in a mountain environment ? , How do you protect your troops from IEDs ? , What  type of intelligence gathering techniques are being employed ?  . What will qauntify a mission success ? . How long will  a deployment at these numbers be maintained ? . What is the end game plan  for Afghanistan ? .  Did the troops get a chance to vote ?.


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## PPCLI MCpl (23 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Okay , my prejudices or observations of the qaulity of leadership will cease . I will limit my self to questions , How do you identify the terrorists ? , What type of training did the units going there to do prepare  for operating in a mountain environment ? , How do you protect your troops from IEDs ? , What  type of intelligence gathering techniques are being employed ?  . What will qauntify a mission success ? . How long will  a deployment at these numbers be maintained ? . What is the end game plan  for Afghanistan ? .  Did the troops get a chance to vote ?.



Yes, the troops got a chance to vote.

The answers to the rest of your questions can be found on this site with a little research.


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## gnplummer421 (23 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

I was reading a post of yours in the Medak pocket thread and I was wondering whether you had an experience there that made you bitter, and made you hold animosity towards parts of the military. I am curious about the emotional state of the folks that were there, and whether or not their experiences there profoundly changed their personalities/social behavior etc. 

Gnplummer421


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## Scoobie Newbie (24 Jan 2006)

Maybe he didn't get his Governor General Citation.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Jan 2006)




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## Cannonfodder (24 Jan 2006)

Gnplummer421 , some peoples personalities have been  changed  myself  Iam just the regular  abrasive person that I have always been . Aside all that crap the main reason I find this situation troubling  is that the general concensus is that there is no long term plan out there in the media . As a soldier you sign up to defend Canada you put great faith in your leaders to make the right decisions but unforunately from my expieriance is that when the sheet hits the fan the leaders do not know what to do  , have no plan  generally leave things at an impasse . That is fine when your out in Wainwright or Suffield but when T 72s are firing into the house 300 meters up the road and your sustaining heavy shelling , you better have some contingency plans . So when I see soldiers getting injured and killed under similar circumstances  I feel we need to reevaluate or mission and mandate .
  Afghanistan is a  differant situation , but I think we are marching into this one with our heads down . I have come to this conclusion  by watching International sentiment wane . Countries are scaling back there prescence , not meeting there financial obligations , the global institutions [UN] that are suppose to assist in these situations are neutered . This would tell me that the will to prevail is not there , making a precence  not fixing the situation . 
  Afghanistan is a land of shifting alliances , I think this war on terror is a failure to diagnos world problems objectively  . The way to stop terrorism is to listen . Scrape off all the labels  and angry rhetoric and listen .You will see that all these desperate and  calculated acts of terror are based on legitimate and often misunderstood rarely addressed grievances . It dosent take long for criminal , political  or religous groups  to capitalise on these grievances . 
   Any solution  made with western involvement will be seen as an imposed  solution . A regional solution involving neighbouring states would be seen as more legitimate . As Canadians we are  often mistaken for Americans  in Europe , to the average Afghan we must appear to be American . This is a problem , that I dont think we will soon overcome . When rage is through the Muslim world and any muslim that has beef with America is flocking to Afghanistan and Iraq to fight the infidel , our prospects  of being mistaken  are good .
   I do not hate Americans but they have made a bad situation worse since 9/11 , they used Afghanistan as a battleground in the cold war , left it to the Taliban , invaded it again to route out Alqaeda and now they are pulling back there commitments , leaving others to pickup the pieces . It is fairly easy to tear down a house but it is a lot harder to rebuild it . When the going gets tough the tough get going .


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## Cannonfodder (24 Jan 2006)

CFL , actually I did not recieve The Governer General Citation  ,  no big deal.


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## KevinB (24 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder -- IMHO you are not listening to those of us who have been here / are still here / are here again.

 This is NOT FYR.   

The Coaltition is prepared to see the day -- but the issue is that the US has to draw down (and the UK) its troops due to comittments in Iraq.  Many of the so called Coalition of the willing had better step up to the plate rather than the token forces they have so far.  The avg deployment for US troops at last count (regular) is IIRC 12 months in Afghan and 24 Months in Iraq since Jan 1 2002 --- thats the equivalent of five Cdn tours -- so yeah I woudl say that Canada and several other nations are shirking troop comittments.

Second the ISAF "players" seem very content to hang about Kabul where is is (relatively) nice and safe rather than spred law into the provinces.

Thirdly the ETT's are turning out a professional Afghan National Army which is used more and more to allow Afghan to ensure their own destiny and peace and tranquility.  This is the most important issue for it allows the Afghan people to chart their future - not require foreign armies to enforce decrees from Kabul.

 Cheers
Kevin


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## Good2Golf (24 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> ...
> Afghanistan is a  differant situation , but I think we are marching into this one with our heads down . I have come to this conclusion  by watching International sentiment wane . Countries are scaling back there presence , not meeting there financial obligations , the global institutions [UN] that are suppose to assist in these situations are neutered . This would tell me that the will to prevail is not there , making a presence  not fixing the situation .
> Afghanistan is a land of shifting alliances , I think this war on terror is a failure to diagnos world problems objectively  . The way to stop terrorism is to listen . Scrape off all the labels  and angry rhetoric and listen .You will see that all these desperate and  calculated acts of terror are based on legitimate and often misunderstood rarely addressed grievances . It dosent take long for criminal , political  or religous groups  to capitalise on these grievances .
> Any solution  made with western involvement will be seen as an imposed  solution . A regional solution involving neighbouring states would be seen as more legitimate
> ....



I assume from the portion of your previous post above that you are not going to look into any of the information reference provided in this thread to further inform yourself.

Had you bothered to do so...like look at http://www.ands.gov.af, you would now have a reasonable idea about Afghan and international community cooperative efforts to rebuild the nation.

Regarding Afghans' perceptions regarding such support, as someone who works with the Afghan government on a daily basis, and having just had a 10-minute chat with President Karzai's Senior Economic Advisor this afternoon, I will categorically say...

YOU ARE WRONG!

Frankly, any more posts of "what are we doing there?", "Afghans really don't want us there!", "The international support is waning!" that originate from your keyboard will certainly earn you a place on my ignore list.

Duey


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## GO!!! (24 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

In regards to your service with two PPCLI Bns in two years, your claim of being in the Medak pocket, and your lack of CIC, I have to wonder.... 

Also, a problem without a solution is just a bitch. The only solution you have offered in the 12 pages or so of posts is to buy weapons from the locals. This has been proven to only remove the bottom five percent of the available firearms, and that has been alluded to here by others.

Terrorism is not an act of desperation, many of the foreign fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq today are middle class arab youth, undertaking a "right of passage" just like frosh week or spring break here. Our best interest is to ensure that any act of violence against us is responded to in such a manner that the perpetrator is himself killed, or captured. We (the western world) have been doing this so well that the bad guys now use suicide attacks or IED's because they know a classic ambush or attack is suicide. This proves that they really don't want to die, they just want to kill us. If they have to pump some young man up with drugs, delusions of grandeur and sleep deprivation to get him to do it - oh well.

You come off as a former infanteer with some hazy, unsubstantiated claims, a big chip on your shoulder towards the US, Ottawa and Canadian Generals, and no clue about what is going on in the world beyond what you read in the Globe and Mail. You had a bad experience in the CF, and you pulled pole and left - that was your choice. Now you are spouting off telling me that guys from my unit are being maimed and dying for nothing?

You may have done nothing important with your military career (if you really had one) but don't make the mistake of thinking that we are in the same boat. Everyone in Afghanistan right now is a volunteer. It is easy to shirk your duty and get off the tours right now, there is alot of interest in going. 

I'll be leaving (again) in Feb 07, and it is nice to know that you think we are all wasting our time.


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## gnplummer421 (24 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder;

I agree with you on one topic at least, which is that when I wore my Canadian flag on my jacket, the Dutch in Amsterdam bought me lots of beer  and they weren't buying the Americans any.

I have to say though, that you seem to be pi**ing off a lot of posters here. I never had to go to a dangerous mission or even a UN tour during my time in. The tank Regiment I worked with in Germany was put on stand by for the first Gulf war, but we were cancelled out, so I cannot speak from experience. I strongly believe though, that I would not have hesitated to go anywhere with my Regiment. I felt a strong pride of belonging to my unit, and still think about my old army mates often. Would I have been bitter if my Officer/leader was weak under pressure? Not sure since I was never in that situation. The situation you were in is a long time ago, is that what made you abrasive or were you always like that. 

Gnplummer421


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## Cannonfodder (24 Jan 2006)

I never said that we should not be in Afghanistan Iam just voicing my displeasure  with the way the situation has and is  developing .


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## gnplummer421 (24 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

I think our involvement in A-stan is getting better all the time...more assets moving in to place, some really good Special Ops guys, and our Coyotes and LAV's are very effective in the environment. This is the only way an army improves it's skills..in live situations where split second decisions are made, leaders are formed and boys become men. Maybe this analogy sounds cold, but in essence it is a cold fact. Why do you think the Israeli army is so effective...experience through continuous warfare. I'm probably going off topic, but I'm feeling a bit cranky tonite 

I am patriotic and I strongly support our troops, I want to know how you feel about the army of today, do you strongly support them? and tell me what , in your opinion, some solutions are for the questions you asked before about A-stan. 

** I'm having a few brew tonite, so if I get unpolitical, just tell me


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## Cannonfodder (24 Jan 2006)

If any of you have built on swamp  or marsh this process sounds familiar.To build on a swamp you must first fill it with gravel , drain it , compact it  and repeat this process until you obtain satisfactory compaction . Bringing Afghanistan out of the dark ages is alot like building on a swamp but in the middle of the everglades . Neighbouring countries Pakistan with all its madrassas and oppresive government , Iran  a  soon to be nuclear capable  nemesis of the USA  are going to make  draining this swamp very difficult . Everytime you think that your starting to get a leg up on the problem the pumps will break taking you back to square one . In order to effectively drain the swamp you need to extend your perimeter this means you need to deal with problems outside your borders . 
  Iran needs to be dealt with effectively  , Pakistan needs to improve its relations with its people of course  dealing with these countries will enevitably  lead to the Israel situation . Western invovlement in the middle east will also be up for discussion leading me to conclude that unless thes issues are addressed Afghanistan will enjoy a tedious peace amongest in some urban areas . Lasting peace will only be achieved through negotiations with the marginalised ,  rogue states . Not to sound pesimistic the current political process is myopic , a pan middle east solution is required  to stabilise the region as a whole . Stabilzing the region as a whole is key to securing a lasting peace in Afghanistan .
  Foreign economic investment will give opportunities to the Afghan peoples , but what type of investment ? , this is where Afghanistans neighbours come into play . Iran is rich in oil and China needs oil , a  Pan Afghanistan  pipeline to  China  could be financed  with out IMF or World bank monies . Afghanistan could recieve royalties from delivery charges. Increased electrical production capability through hydro electric generation  and mineral exploration  for export to China will give the Afghan economy a kick start . Mineral exploration has been asleep in Afghanistan for sometime and she will awake to  record high commodity prices . Mineral Exploration companies do not need a secure environment they bring there own [Sandline] and regularly operate in these type of environments[Congo , Liberia , Sierre Leone ] . Finding and proving reserves will bring in foreign investment . China and Iran can have a pivotal role in contributing to the rebuilding of Afghanistan but thus far have been neglected.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Jan 2006)

...and without securing hard-fought peace [ ie. killing the baddies] those are just wonderful whimsical ideas.........and mean nothing.


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## Kat Stevens (24 Jan 2006)

From an Engineering standpoint, when draining a swamp, job one is to kill all the snakes and alligators.  :warstory:


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## Cannonfodder (25 Jan 2006)

Bruce   , myopia   pervades  your sentiments how are you going to kill the " Baddies " if you can not identify them ? and  porous borders will bring more to the fray . Accelerating your offensive will only exponentially compound your problems . Lets not get to over confident here sure we have a modern army that is fairly well trained but your adversary is unknown , has been brought up in conflict  , has never known peace , to say your going to kill him is presumptuous  . Placing fill in the swamp kills the environment that sustains  the snakes and alligators .
     Heavy handed tactics bring more losses entrench the conflict , set pretexts for further bombings  and are regressive to conflict resolution . Aim sure the Israelis can testify to that , it seems that any beliefs that you can remove a couple of baddies and solve the problem is thoroughly short sighted . Our troops have to play a game by rules that there adversaries has no respect of . I wish the troops luck  , but dint expect any miracles until attitudes to solving the problems change . 
     Before you make any responses  try and come up with some original solutions and Dependant thought instead of  cave man solutions , kill , smash , and destroy . This isn't SOCOM  Navy Seals  there are long reaching effects that will be reaped if we go out playing Wyatt Earp without a larger concensus for the whole . 
    Sure I support the troops but Aim not going to get  sticker or a ribbon . Ive always found that ribbon BS ,well intentioned  none the less  to be an empty gesture save the lip service get them the right kit , troops see through that  crap . The government and leadership has let them down they intially put them in theater without the proper kit  we see the results  . Its like they wanted to see how cheap they could be and provide  minimal protection .Thankfully they are getting some more suitable vehicles but it was a steep learning curve  and now they want to  attend another course  where the tution is very high .The general sentiment  Aim getting is that we are right and thats it . Blind faith and obedience gets you into ambushes it always good to be a tad bit cynical.


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## big bad john (25 Jan 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> After reading the post by big bod john, best wishes to the wounded and may they get well soon. I can't imagine the pain they have and still will go through.
> 
> All that despite disrespectful comments like those of Cannonfodder, questioning the mission that they gave so much (their physical body) for. I'm sure the anti-CF movements are recruiting these days, maybe you'd like to join Cannonfodder.



Tsk Tsk, now don't feed the troll.  lol


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## Cannonfodder (25 Jan 2006)

Man you guys are brain washed nothing I have said is  Anti CF , if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF  . Individuals get severly injured in a mission that has no defined boundaries or objectives  give me a break . This is not the first time this has happened and certainly will not be the last  . These poor guy s are going to be disabled for the rest of there lives for what ? . Well I guess there getting Nyalas now , how did we get the G wagons ? ,  vehicles bought and paid for in soldiers blood . Why  is there a lack of resolve in NDHQ to lobby for proper equipment  aggressively  , they either dont have a clue or they dont have the spine to speak up . They send troops to one of the worst sheet holes on earth with soft skin vehicles ,  what do they expect ? . It s a bad situation when your leadership has to use its own soldier blood in order to shame your government to get the proper equipment .


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## Walrus (25 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder:

I would LOVE to meet you sometime and give you my response in person pal !


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jan 2006)

yep definitely didn't get his Governor General Citation for the Medak.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jan 2006)

Brainwashed huh.
I think you might have picked up some conditioning when you were in Iran 



> These poor guy s are going to be disabled for the rest of there lives for what ?


You're trying to over think the matter.
Why? Because they are soldiers and they were carrying out a job ordered by the government whom the Canadian citizens voted into power.  How'd you vote last year and the election before? Hummm

It's obvious your beef is with the goverment but your comments about how our soldiers are getting wounded/dying for nothing probably isn't comming out like you want it to. Maybe you should rethink your angle and choose your words to better suit the enviroment you're in.


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## regulator12 (25 Jan 2006)

This board is very criticle of people who critisise the military. Cannonfodder has an opinion and is voicing it. To some degree he has a point.
I know i am going to get flammed for defending him to a point. I dont agree with everything he says, but i do think that he is right when he says that our government has no spine. The liberal government had no spine, hopefully that will change now that the Conservatives are in power. Just my 2 cents bring on the flames...
pete


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## Michael OLeary (25 Jan 2006)

regulator12, this board is not overly critical of those who criticize the military or many other things. It is, however, intolerant of posters who repeatedly post nothing but poorly expressed attitude. Any opinion can be expressed in a calm and rational manner that promotes clear debate and avoids inciting equally strong responses. Unfortunately, cannonfodder chose a poor tactical approach and has suffered the slings and arrows of others for it. He also had bad timing, hinging his comments on the recent death and injuries sustained by Canadians in theatre, a time when he should have known better than to wrap their sacrifice up in his own bitterness.


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## regulator12 (25 Jan 2006)

your right mike, and i agree with you. There is a time a place to post opinions and when to hold those thoughts for later. I agree that this board is not overly criticle i take that back. 
Pete


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## 48Highlander (25 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> Man you guys are brain washed nothing I have said is  Anti CF , if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF



So let's see, so far you have insulted all of our leadership, claiming that they're incompetent.
you've insinuated that our officers don't care about the soldiers.
you've suggested that we have no idea wtf we're doing in Afghanistan.
you've flat out stated that we're wasting our time, and have no hope of success.
you've insulted the average soldier by suggesting that we're just mindlessly following orders.

I'm sure there's a lot more, but I'm going to stop here because that's more than enough to show what a goddamn coward you are.  You spend countless posts criticizing us, insulting us, and questioning our motives, and then claim that "if a person does not like what he is seeing and voices  an opinion it should no way be construed as Anti CF".  Well, you're right, simply voicing ones opinion on one matter does not make you anti-CF.  YOU on the other hand have undertaken a dedicated campaign to discredit us and everything we do.  That DOES make you anti-CF.  At least have the balls to admit it.


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## Forgotten_Hero (25 Jan 2006)

> Why? Because they are soldiers and they were carrying out a job ordered by the government whom the Canadian citizens voted into power.



Who volunteered and knew all the risks, by the way.



> This board is very criticle of people who critisise the military.



Really? Thats odd... the name of the website is only army.ca... who would have thought...?


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## NL_engineer (25 Jan 2006)

Cannonfodder,

Your pipeline idea being an ok one has only one fatall flaw: insergants will target it, for example look at Iraq, the pipe lines over there are nice targets. :threat: With mention of the Chinese, NATO should try to get there army to help in Afghanistan; not just try to get fuel from Iran, and protect the pipeline for them.

BTW please leave more white space in your posts ;D


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## GO!!! (25 Jan 2006)

Cannon fodder
WHAT IS YOUR GREAT IDEA FOR SUCCESS IN AFGHANISTAN - WE KNOW THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH EVERYTHING WE SAY, DO AND HAVE, SO TELL US HOW TO FIX IT OR STFU!!

Just answer the question, you are so smart, it must be great, you are just trolling here to get our attention - right?


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## Jaxson (26 Jan 2006)

:argument:

And im gonna agree with GO!!! on this one.


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## JCof (26 Jan 2006)

After reading these last nine pages I'm thinking that cannonfodder really is just here to try and argue with people. I bet if everyone started agreeing with him he would do a 180 just to be belligerant. The big irony here is that the thread is called "Are We Wasting  Our Effort"  I think the answer is yes.


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## Haggis (26 Jan 2006)

JCof said:
			
		

> The big irony here is that the thread is called "Are We Wasting  Our Effort"  I think the answer is yes.



As far as this thread is concerned, I agree with you.

GO!!!:  BZ.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Jan 2006)

If anyone wants to add a substantial point, rather than another arc in the same old circle, contact a Mod.


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## 3rd Herd (29 Jan 2006)

Here is the best answer I have found to date:

Why Was It My Son Had to Die? 

Why was it my son had to die, 

To preserve some truth? To hide a lie? 

Why did my country ask of me, 

To sacrifice my hopes so totally? 

Why must one home give up so much, 

Among the few to feel death’s touch? 

Why was it my son had to die? 

Please let me know, please tell me why. 

Your son died in a valiant cause, 

To save our way of rights and laws, 

To keep the light of freedom glowing, 

To keep the rights of freemen flowing, 

To keep our tall torch burning bright 

Against the terror, against its night. 

Your son gave up his valiant best, 

To save our ways, preserve the rest. 

True, politics is a darkened art, 

Devouring lives of those with heart, 

The heart to give their very best, 

To serve, protect we helpless rest. 

But, Lord, we’re thankful some will serve 

We multitudes, who lack their nerve. 

They take up arms and fight our foes, 

Bearing bloody burdens for our woes. 

Why was it my son had to die? 

Why must I be the one to cry? 

Because you are one of the few, 

Who raised a son who truly knew, 

Our freedom’s price is paid in blood, 

Young men must die to stay the flood, 

To keep the terror wolves at bay, 

To save us all, preserve our way. 

Why was it my son had to die? 

Because your son was one fine guy. 

Russ Vaughn 

2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment 

101st Airborne Division 

Vietnam 65-66


Choo


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