# pilot vacation time and OJT



## snyper21 (31 Jul 2008)

I'm sure these questions have been answered before.. I just can't seem to find them and I've checked for quite a while. My question is, is a pilot trainee posted to do OJT right after BOTC? Also, while on OJT (not on course), how much vacation time does one have? How often would I be able to go back home in MTL while on OJT per year for year for example?

Thanks,

SNyper


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Jul 2008)

With less than 5 years in, you have 20 Annual Leave days per year, plus all applicable Stat holidays, and throw in the applicable provincial days as well.


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## George Wallace (31 Jul 2008)

snyper21 said:
			
		

> I'm sure these questions have been answered before.. I just can't seem to find them and I've checked for quite a while. My question is, is a pilot trainee posted to do OJT right after BOTC? Also, while on OJT (not on course), how much vacation time does one have? How often would I be able to go back home in MTL while on OJT per year for year for example?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SNyper



Depends on where you do OJT, how much money you have in your Bank account, and how much Lve you have left in the Fiscal Year.


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## snyper21 (31 Jul 2008)

Thanks for the quick replys. The thing is I know someone right now in Trenton who works very few hours per week on his OJT. If someone is posted in Trenton for example, with such few working hours, are you on your own and can do what you please when not actually on the job? If your posted in Trenton would you be able to rent a place (not actually on the base), and possibly fly home on your spare time (i.e. weekend) if you'd like?


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Jul 2008)

If you are off duty and you have a leave pass (weekend) submitted (if required by your unit),  you should be able to go home.  If you know someone in Trenton, why didn't you just ask him/her?   ;D

Oh and...Trenton is within reasonable driving time to Mtl IMO.

And yes, you can live off-base (aka on the economy) if you want.


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## snyper21 (31 Jul 2008)

because I've been bothering him with way too many questions recently so I'd figure I would bother you guys ;D


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## TheCheez (31 Jul 2008)

snyper21 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick replys. The thing is I know someone right now in Trenton who works very few hours per week on his OJT. If someone is posted in Trenton for example, with such few working hours, are you on your own and can do what you please when not actually on the job? If your posted in Trenton would you be able to rent a place (not actually on the base), and possibly fly home on your spare time (i.e. weekend) if you'd like?



Generally you need a leave pass to leave the local area. If you go without and end up getting sick or crashing your car or something in Montreal you're going to have a fun time explaining why you're there.

Whether or not you have to take annual days if you're unofficially not expected to be at work is another matter and will depend highly on your boss and your situation. Once you're done basic and on OJT it is like a regular, civy job. Usually you have regular hours or shifts you have to be at work and the rest of the time is yours.

If being in Montreal is that important to you, try to OJT at 438 or the recruiting centre. It doesn't mean you've signed up for rotary.


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## George Wallace (31 Jul 2008)

TheCheez said:
			
		

> Whether or not you have to take annual days if you're unofficially not expected to be at work is another matter and will depend highly on your boss and your situation. Once you're done basic and on OJT it is like a regular, civy job. Usually you have regular hours or shifts you have to be at work and the rest of the time is yours.



This advice is only good if you remain withing the geographic area of your workplace.  It is still good to have a Lve Pass in your hands for insurance reasons.

If you don't have a Lve Pass and you leave the geographic area, then you are setting yourself up for AWOL Charges.


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## SupersonicMax (31 Jul 2008)

What most units do is make you sign a blank leave pass in case you do something stupid like going away without a leave pass on a week end.  Don't count on it to go away without a leave pass.  It's actually really easy to get a leave pass for a week end...  As Someone else said, why not go to 438?

Max


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## snyper21 (31 Jul 2008)

The thing is I've grown up in Montreal and I'm 21 so I'd be happy to leave this city/province. It's not that I'd prefer to be located as close as possible, it's just I'd like to know that I'm not stuck for months on end without visiting friends/friends for some time. I don't really care how far from my hometown I'm located, it's just a comfort thing knowing that if I wanted to I can visit Mtl. for a weekend if need be.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Jul 2008)

snyper21 said:
			
		

> The thing is I've grown up in Montreal and I'm 21 so I'd be happy to leave this city/province. It's not that I'd prefer to be located as close as possible, it's just I'd like to know that I'm not stuck for months on end without visiting friends/friends for some time. I don't really care how far from my hometown I'm located, it's just a comfort thing knowing that if I wanted to I can visit Mtl. for a weekend if need be.



Yes you can go home, if not working/on duty/on call/in crap etc, and as Supersonic Max has said, a weekend leave pass is no big deal.  I use them for weekends that have a Stat at the end of them (like this weekend coming, Thanksgiving, etc).


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## snyper21 (31 Jul 2008)

great thanks for answering to a newb. I got another question about OJT, what do pilot trainees awaiting courses do to for fun or with their past time if located in a rural airforce base? I'm guessing theres a good social scene with guys and gals  ?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jul 2008)

Yup, they sit around and stroke each other with compliments waiting for the day when they are strong enough to carry their ego's around all by themselves.....


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## Good2Golf (31 Jul 2008)

snyper21 said:
			
		

> great thanks for answering to a newb. I got another question about OJT, what do pilot trainees awaiting courses do to for fun or with their past time *if located in a rural airforce base?* I'm guessing theres a good social scene with guys and gals  ?




...cow tipping...


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## PMedMoe (31 Jul 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...cow tipping...



Mail box baseball.....


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yes you can go home, if not working/on duty/on call/in crap etc, and as Supersonic Max has said, a weekend leave pass is no big deal.  I use them for weekends that have a Stat at the end of them (like this weekend coming, Thanksgiving, etc).




Sorry to necro, but it fits the thread.

    Does this mean that for weekends NOT including a stat holiday, leave passes generally aren't used? I know all about leave passes and entitlement and how technically they are required, but in my limited experience I've seen many things like that, which I was taught to the letter of the law but which are lax in the real world.
    Don't jump on me, I know the rules, I'm not trying to cut corners. This is just one of those things I could see people giving the old wink to (like the example giving of signing a blank pass) but which I haven't been in long enough to find out for myself.
     For example, I am at school in London, my family is in Kitchener (outside 50 km, for those not from Ontario). But since my ULO (essentially a civilian clerk who liaison with ROTP members) has my cell phone number he says I'm good to go back and forth at my discretion (usually once a month or so) without any formal correspondence. Is this the way it would work for most units for similar distances? (Ie, going to a cottage or something on weekends close by, not travelling across the country)

Thanks.


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2009)

I really don't know how many times we have to answer these same questions.  Have you taken the time to read any of your Leave Passes; or is just a matter that you stick it in your room and take off?  On your CF 100, in all that black lettering, is instructions to the holder (you) as to what you are to do in the case of accident, illness, or other catastrophe that may befall you.  It gives you, or the person giving you aid, clear instructions as to what you must do if something should happen to you.

The Leave Pass is a sort of "Insurance Policy" to cover your ass, should you be outside of the Unit Area and get into an accident or injured/ill.

If you want the answers to your "Conditional" questions, it is best to visit your OR and find out what the current Unit policy is.


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I really don't know how many times we have to answer these same questions.  Have you taken the time to read any of your Leave Passes; or is just a matter that you stick it in your room and take off?  On your CF 100, in all that black lettering, is instructions to the holder (you) as to what you are to do in the case of accident, illness, or other catastrophe that may befall you.  It gives you, or the person giving you aid, clear instructions as to what you must do if something should happen to you.
> 
> The Leave Pass is a sort of "Insurance Policy" to cover your ass, should you be outside of the Unit Area and get into an accident or injured/ill.



   I said in my post I knew the letter of the law and why leave passes are used. I also said that not everything happens exactly by the book like I've been taught, and I was unsure if this was one of those things. I had/have reason to believe it's not, because, right or wrong, my ULO tells me I can travel outside of 50 km without one. So this spiel isn't really helpful or informative.
    If every single time you go outside of 50km you take a leave pass, fine. Like I said, I'm not looking to cut corners. But it's not a stupid question to ask when I have precedent to show that some ORs operate like that. Now here's the part where some of you will give me crap because "ROTP is not reflective of how things operate in the real CF" blah blah. And to that I say: Exactly. Which is why I'm asking the question in the first place. If my ULO is right out of it, I just want to know so I can adjust to the way things will be after I graduate. No need to throw the book at me.


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## MJP (24 Apr 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Sorry to necro, but it fits the thread.
> 
> Does this mean that for weekends NOT including a stat holiday, leave passes generally aren't used? I know all about leave passes and entitlement and how technically they are required, but in my limited experience I've seen many things like that, which I was taught to the letter of the law but which are lax in the real world.
> Don't jump on me, I know the rules, I'm not trying to cut corners. This is just one of those things I could see people giving the old wink to (like the example giving of signing a blank pass) but which I haven't been in long enough to find out for myself.
> ...



Yes it happens quite a bit in the units that I have worked with.  I will qualify it with the fact that within a sect or Pl you would tell someone where you are going, so they can reach you if something happens.  That and it has to be reasonable in the distance that you will be.  Going fishing overnight an hour or two away fine.......skiing in Kamloops while posted in Edmonton not so good


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2009)

MJP said:
			
		

> Yes it happens quite a bit in the units that I have worked with.  I will qualify it with the fact that within a sect or Pl you would tell someone where you are going, so they can reach you if something happens.  That and it has to be reasonable in the distance that you will be.  Going fishing overnight an hour or two away fine.......skiing in Kamloops while posted in Edmonton not so good



That's exactly what I was looking for, thanks MJP. I understand it varies from unit to unit, but thanks for giving a general picture.


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> I said in my post I knew the letter of the law and why leave passes are used. I also said that not everything happens exactly by the book like I've been taught, and I was unsure if this was one of those things. I had/have reason to believe it's not, because, right or wrong, my ULO tells me I can travel outside of 50 km without one. So this spiel isn't really helpful or informative.
> If every single time you go outside of 50km you take a leave pass, fine. Like I said, I'm not looking to cut corners. But it's not a stupid question to ask when I have precedent to show that some ORs operate like that. Now here's the part where some of you will give me crap because "ROTP is not reflective of how things operate in the real CF" blah blah. And to that I say: Exactly. Which is why I'm asking the question in the first place. If my ULO is right out of it, I just want to know so I can adjust to the way things will be after I graduate. No need to throw the book at me.



You know if you only RTFP you would have seen the last line:


If you want the answers to your "Conditional" questions, it is best to visit your OR and find out what the current Unit policy is.


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You know if you only RTFP you would have seen the last line:
> 
> 
> If you want the answers to your "Conditional" questions, it is best to visit your OR and find out what the current Unit policy is.



    The reason that's not applicable right now for me is because I haven't been posted yet, I should have said as much. I understand that the example MJP gave is not an overarching policy, I was just looking for some examples of what to expect. I have some now, so you can put away your big font.


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## George Wallace (24 Apr 2009)

The big font was just for you.

Leave Passes serve a purpose.  Unit Policies regarding their use will change from time to time and Unit to Unit.  

For instance: some Units have their members fill out a CF 100, leaving the Address and dates blank, and keep them on file to cover these short weekend sorties, and then keep them on file to safeguard their members.

However, should you be in an accident or such, outside your Unit Area, then some "Bean Counter" may stick by the Rules, Black and White/NO shades of Gray, and tell you that you ARE NOT entitled to any form of compensation or benefits.  That is why you are encouraged to have one.

That is why there is large font for you.  Other than saying that this does happen, we can not give you a conditional answer to your questions; only your supporting Unit can.


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## benny88 (24 Apr 2009)

We're going in circles. All I wanted to know is whether it _EVER_ happens the way that MJP and now you have described, where the red tape is circumvented for things like local, weekend trips, not how it always happens. I understand and have never implied otherwise that it could and will be different from unit to unit, so we can stop rehashing that. And I don't need the purposes of a CF 100 explained to me, I understand its use and purpose, but I know enough to know that the way it's written is not always the way it's done, hence my original question.

     I think we're on the same page now, thanks for the information. Understand that I'm floating in a limbo in my career because I know (or at least know how to find) much of the relevant information, but lack the experience to put it in context, which I think you're taking for granted. 

Cheers


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Apr 2009)

Simply put.....

When in doubt fill out a Lve Pass.


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## SupersonicMax (24 Apr 2009)

It depends on the Unit, as it has been said already.  From Cold Lake, we don't need week end leave passes to go to Edmonton (300+ km).


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Apr 2009)

To echo previous posts, my last unit considered a pre-signed, blank address and date Leave Pass 'illegal', however at my current one I had to supply one of them to my CoC.  Now, instead of putting in a leave pass to go to NB, PEI, etc for a weekend, I just send my CoC an email letting them know where I will be and the phone number.

Also, in terms of 'being covered' by a Wknd Lve Pass, just last winter I was in NB (reside/posted to NS) and my starter went on me Sunday night when I went to drive back.  When I called my CoC to let them know, I sure was glad I had a leave pass authoring me to be out of province.  A copy of the repair bill from the VW dealer with the date/time stamp on it was all that was required to negate an AWOL charge.


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## benny88 (28 Apr 2009)

Before you skim over and see OJT and scoff, please note this isn't another "Where should I go for OJT" post. I know where I'd like to go, just need some advice please!


   My situation: Due to the flight training portion of my ROTP program, I am required to stay in London after the academic year is finished to finish off my PPL. This prevented me from doing the SLT I was slated for. Unfortunately, I cannot get a firm date of when I will be done due to weather, and shifting availability of aircraft and instructors. The best estimate I have gotten is late May- early June.


    Originally I was told by my CoC that when I was nearing completion to inform them, and they would find me a trade related OJT. Now, however, I'm being told that it's my responsibility to set-up my own. I have a standing offer to return to the CFRC where I worked for a few weeks last summer, so I'll keep that in my back pocket, but I would like to do something more related to my trade. (I know I will be a coffee boy anywhere, but I'd rather do it around aircraft)

    My question(s) is(are): 

1) Is it even worth it to start trying to make calls about an OJT posting when I can't give a firm date on which I can start? 

2) It was implied to me that because my OJT would be relatively short (from the estimated early June date until block leave starts on 10 Aug) it would be unlikely that a unit would bother to move me there for that short of a time. Can anyone comment on that?

3) And finally, who should I be attempting to contact? My ULO is new and appears to be swamped and unable to offer much assistance with this. I'm not looking for specific contacts, but rather general advice. I have almost no knowledge of the setup of a squadron or wing. I've found lots of phone numbers, but none that stand out as being the obvious choice to call. Who should I be asking for? If anyone WOULD like to offer specific contacts, please PM me. I'm most interested in Borden or Trenton.


I know none of you can give me all the answers, but some educated guesses are better than what I have now: bupkiss.


Thanks


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## aesop081 (28 Apr 2009)

benny88 said:
			
		

> 1) Is it even worth it to start trying to make calls about an OJT posting when I can't give a firm date on which I can start?



IMHO only, its not worth it. You are just going to burden an operational unit that has (most likely) enough SLJOs kicking around to begin with. Adding another one with an uncertain arrival date is just a pain in the rear. But thats just in my experience. A better time would be when you have something more firm as far as dates.




> it would be unlikely that a unit would bother to move me there for that short of a time. Can anyone comment on that?



No unit i have been around will pay to have a body moved over that is not operationaly employable. Again, thats just based on what i have seen over the years.



> I'm most interested in Borden or Trenton.



Try contacting the Operations officer at the Sqn you are interested in.


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## benny88 (28 Apr 2009)

Thanks for the post CDN Aviator, helpful.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> No unit i have been around will pay to have a body moved over that is not operationaly employable. Again, thats just based on what i have seen over the years.



    I didn't mean that they would pay for my move, sorry I was unclear about that. I'm living in Kitchener/London and wouldn't need anything I couldn't fit in my car, especially if remaining in Ontario and for this short length of time. Rather I meant would they make room for me in the BOQ or wherever.


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