# Mess Dress



## Waldo (5 May 2004)

I acquired a mess dress before I retired and I am trying to find the regulation as to where and what insignia is required.

Any help would be appreciated


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## Michael OLeary (5 May 2004)

The exact details will depend on the trade, and the best place to start is the applicable Corps/Unit kit shop for accoutrements and details for wear.


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## Yes Man (5 May 2004)

Kind of off topic: but does anyone have a picture of someone in mess dress?  I would like to see what it looks like.


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## MedCorps (5 May 2004)

Near the bottom of the page.

 http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/lincoln_&_welland_regt.htm 

Lieutenant Colonel Arnott Hume Stevens wearing his ‘mess kit‘ of the Lincoln & Welland Regt

MC


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## Brad Sallows (6 May 2004)

A pair of cloth collar dogs.  Miniatures of medals, if any.  Regimental/branch studs and cuff links for the shirt are optional.


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## John Nayduk (7 May 2004)

Here‘s a picture of mess kit.
 http://www.windsorregt.ca/srnco.html


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## Sailing Instructor (8 Sep 2004)

I've read in the CF Dress Instructions that a member can have his service dress or ceremonial dress made by a civilian tailor (as opposed to the CF supply system) if that tailor is using 'official' CF tailoring patterns.  

Now, I must mention that I am very interested in tailoring and men's suits and all of those clothing particulars you used to find in Esquire magazine.  So I expect a good fit when it comes to my reefer jacket (that's the navy's double-breasted service dress coat) and matching trousers.  Needless to say I was too rushed during IAP to bother taking my reefer jacket back to the tailor to get the last wrinkles in the back to dissapear.

So I went to my base tailor today--not to alter my service dress, which is still in CMTT--and I asked about the CF patterns that one is supposed to get through the supply system in order to give to one's (civy) tailor.  And the base tailor had no idea about what I was talking.  Fair enough, I'll bet most people don't have 'their own' tailor, after all this isn't the 1930s.  So I asked the tailor if she would make a custom service dress for me (didn't think of asking for mess dress, by the way) and she said something like, 'Why would I make a uniform from scratch when I have ones from stock?'  

At this point, I reaffirmed my position to go to my own tailor who can appreciate the confort and look of a custom made suit/uniform.  After all, if one is expected to have a mirror shine on their parade boots, or their caps completely level on their head, then why are members not encouraged to have thier uniforms custom made to improve their look while in public and on parade?  Admittedly, not everyone can afford a custom made suit, but I felt that the base tailor was jacking me up for wanting a good-looking uniform.

This brings up a few questions: 

Where can I get these CF patterns?  Or is it enough to show a competent tailor your current stock uniform and have him pattern his after it?

Also, as per fabrics: I know the CF tends to favour polyester mixes, but I, as a sort of a cloth afficcionado, favour the pure wool suits and pure cotton shirts.  Of course, in cases like the white tunic of the navy, the pure cotton drill will wrinkle more easily than polyester twill, but are the materials strictly regulated--will anyone notice if I have a pure wool reefer jacket rather than a wool/poly one?

Thanks if anyone can answer me...hopefully someone else here shares my love of fine clothing! ;D


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## Inch (8 Sep 2004)

Mess kit is always done "off base". I have never heard of getting a custom made DEU. For the amount you actually wear it, it's a colossal waste of money. Just take your issued DEU to your tailor and have them alter it to fit you. Guys do it all the time with used mess kits bought off a retiring member and you can't tell the difference. By the way, DEUs are 65% wool and 35% polyester as read off my DEU tag.

Invest in some mutual funds if the money is burning a hole in your pocket.

Cheers


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2004)

When it comes to DEUs I think you will find that you will be left with no choice but to take the "issue" uniform.   I know General grade officers of old used to get custom tailoring done, but even they now are likely to use the issue uniforms.

Mess Kit is a whole different story and there are numerous tailors around the country that have the patterns and various choices or grades of fabric that one may want to choose from.

You may have better luck, waiting to get to your first posting and asking around there as to what their policies are and if there are any tailors that they deal with.   The cost may be considerably less if a tailor were to be brought in to do measurements on several people, as opposed to one.   That happened years ago when I was at the Armour School in Gagetown and they flew in a tailor from Vancouver to take measurements.   There was even a person there that was selling Wellingtons at half price.   It was "One Stop Shopping" and even with the discount of a large order like that, they were able to pay a tailor to fly from one end of the country to the other.   

Just a thought.....

GW


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## pbi (8 Sep 2004)

I think you should follow George Wallace's advice here. Wait until you get posted, then sort it out.

To answer your question a bit more broadly, the Canadian military long ago abandoned the idea of officers having a different quality uniform than the troops. While UK officers and (I believe) US officers still buy their service dress, we are much more egalitarian (as is our country in general) And, as Inch pointed out, the DEU is worn so rarely (at least in the Army, anyway...) that spending money to have a tailor build a set of DEU, at today's rates, is a terribly expensive way to go.

If you are Navy, you should find good military tailors in Victoria, Vancouver and Halifax without too much difficulty. Cheers.


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Sep 2004)

Thanks for the replies.  Yeah, I never thought about the fact that service dress is rarely worn, so I guess I'll just have my reefer jacket altered.

But just to confirm: I can get mess dress made at any tailor (who knows what it looks like) and it'll conform to dress instructions?  I just don't want to pay hundreds of dollars for some wonderfully-fitting garment of beautiful cloth and then have a cox'n or WCWO tell me that I cannot wear it.


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## Inch (9 Sep 2004)

For the mess kit, just ask at your unit. There's usually a tailor near most major military bases that does mess kits. If they know how to make a mess kit, I don't think you'll find too much variation. Just ask around when you get to your unit, I think you've got a year after your commission to get the mess kit, though I'm not sure how solid that time frame is, and save your money, Navy mess kits run up around $1000, it's the most expensive of the 3 elements.

Cheers


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## pbi (10 Sep 2004)

> But just to confirm: I can get mess dress made at any tailor (who knows what it looks like) and it'll conform to dress instructions?




Ahhh-you really _must_ be a Naval person! In my regiment, we would think it a dreadful lack of originality if any two officers were to do anything so pedestrian as to look the same in messkit.    Cheers


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## Sailing Instructor (10 Sep 2004)

Ahh, so mess dress is _intended_ to be slightly different?  I mean, of course not officially, but traditionally?


In which case I am happy. ;D


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Sep 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> I think you should follow George Wallace's advice here. Wait until you get posted, then sort it out.
> 
> To answer your question a bit more broadly, the Canadian military long ago abandoned the idea of officers having a different quality uniform than the troops. While UK officers and (I believe) US officers still buy their service dress, we are much more egalitarian (as is our country in general) And, as Inch pointed out, the DEU is worn so rarely (at least in the Army, anyway...) that spending money to have a tailor build a set of DEU, at today's rates, is a terribly expensive way to go.



Wasn't that long ago, really, - early 1970s for reserve units, possibly late 60s for the regs who were adopting the CF uniform.  Certainly within the lifetimes of most people posting here.

The regulations permitted different materials for officers' service dress, so if one wanted pure wool, gabardine, barathea, whipcord, or whatever, it was officially sanctioned.  Unification and CF Green changed all that for good.


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## hiv (10 Sep 2004)

Just to clarify, the dress regs do indeed say you can get any non-operational uniform custom made as long as it adheres to published CF guidelines. Unfortunately, I have no idea where you'll be able to find these.


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## Matt_Fisher (11 Sep 2004)

If you really want a custom tailored uniform and are prepared to pay the costs associated with such, you may want to have a look on the web for naval tailors in the UK who do custom made uniforms for officer's in the Royal Navy.  Since the Royal Navy officer's uniform is pretty much the same as the CF Naval uniform (black double breasted jacket and trousers) that NCMs and officer's wear, you'd probably to have your uniform made from the RN Officer's pattern in a suitable material.

For maker's of custom uniforms I was able to find these two in a quick yahoo search:
G.D Goldings (Tailors) Ltd.
http://www.custom-tailor.co.uk/

Garry Beverly Tailoring
http://www.gbeverleytailors.co.uk/default.asp

Cheers!

Matt


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## MedCorps (24 Sep 2004)

When the Army got rid of tans as the summer dress and had us wear winter weight dark green DEU pants I had two sets of summer DEU weight dark green DEU pants made in the correct material / pattern.  I also had my dark green DEU jacket custom made.  

The person that did it was Mario "The Master Tailor" in Ottawa on Gladstone Street.  Great guy, excellent work, has all of the CF patterns and CF fabrics (in fact he drafted some of the CF patterns for the CF on contract, and is the tailor for the Governor General).   Cannot say enough good things about this guy. 

Was it worth it?  Well when I was posted in Ottawa I wore the DEU pants (as part of 3B/C) every bloody day.  Yep it was worth it.  When I am out on parade in the summer heat and people are sweating their balls off... I am just that much cooler.  The jacket fits great also.  He also did my Mess Kit and White Mess Kit Jacket.  Again, well made. 

Hope that helps and good luck.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## hockeysgal (30 Jan 2005)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if their is a difference between the men's and the women's mess dress?


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## DaveK (31 Jan 2005)

Yes there is.  However,women may wear the trousers/overalls, men's shirt and bow tie etc.  Usually each regiment has a standard for female mess dress, i.e. the style of the dress and jacket.  Try to find the regulation for your unit, if possible.


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## Recce41 (31 Jan 2005)

John
 Nice mess, damn nicer than the old one. Might try to drop by if in town.


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## Sailing Instructor (1 Feb 2005)

The CF dress instructions contain this information.  Although I suppose what with all the nuances of each army unit's dress, it would be simpler to just ask your QM.


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## Big Bad John (1 Feb 2005)

A link below to a photo of a few of the lads and myself at a Mess Dinner with the Army Air Corps.

http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Members/messaac.jpg


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## John Nayduk (1 Feb 2005)

Thanks, Dave.  We like it.  Don't forget our annual mess dinner on the first Saturday of December, every year.  If you're home visiting, come by.


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## Armymedic (2 Feb 2005)

So, for this new Sgt, 

Where can I grab the white shirt and bow tie for mess dress? (at Canex I presume, but is there as certain style?)

And is there anywhere where they show the "pattern" so that I can get proper mess dress tailored?


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## Inch (2 Feb 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> So, for this new Sgt,
> 
> Where can I grab the white shirt and bow tie for mess dress? (at Canex I presume, but is there as certain style?)
> 
> And is there anywhere where they show the "pattern" so that I can get proper mess dress tailored?



I bought my shirt and a black bow tie at Moore's. I've seen both styles of shirt, french tips (is that what they're called?) and full collared which I have. Most shirts I've seen have the pleats down the front and the holes for button studs and cuff links.

As for the pattern, talk to the guys that have them and find out where they got them done (you may have to ask, oh I don't want to say it, a junior officer that just had one made   ;D ), most tailors have the patterns already. I had my AF one made in Kingston, ON at Andrei's and he had all 3 elemental patterns and probably even the little differences like for the PPCLI and their grey lapels and cuffs. I can't remember off hand where you're located, but I know there's a guy in Ottawa that a few buddies of mine had make theirs.


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## Sailing Instructor (2 Feb 2005)

Patterns can be gotten at your base tailor.   Simply take them to any civilian tailor (preferably one who has made these things before, if you don't exactly know what the finished product will look like) & he will laugh at the amount of detail NDHQ puts into what sort of shoulder padding they allow.   (True story, but I've digressed.   Just get the pattern and take it you your tailor.)   

My tailor also made my bowtie as it seems no store sells ready-made bow ties--they do sell those clip on ones, but they aren't really 'ties' if they don't tie, are they?  As for shirts, I had mine made at a shirtmaker, but any shirt store ought to have bib-fronted shirts (either stiff or pleated).   To quote the CF dress instructions:


> 13. Shirt white (M) (1) Shall be worn with No. 2B order of mess
> dress.
> a. Plain, long-sleeved, standard
> cuff design, with turned down
> ...



Regarding Big Bad John's posted photo: what are those mess jackets with the stand-up collar & open front called?   Is there a blue vest under them or what?   I've seen a scarlet one of these before but I couldn't figure out it's components.   (I think they look nicer than the modern, dinner-suit-ish mess dress.)


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## my72jeep (2 Feb 2005)

Believe it or not there is a office in NDHQ that only deals with mess kits Call it tell them what type of mess kit you want your size and 5 days later a set of patterns arrive at your door.

C. Cracknell 613-994-9472 

but if your in Borden go to the cannex they will let you have one for 0% intrest two years to pay no payments for 6 months.


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## John Nayduk (2 Feb 2005)

While not officially mess dress, I was wondering if anybody knows where I can get my hands on a pattern forPatrol Dress?  Different Regiments have slight differences in it but it is all basically the same.  Can anyone help?


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## Big Bad John (2 Feb 2005)

Royal Marines still wear Blues!   

http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Operations/going_home.jpg


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## DaveK (3 Feb 2005)

Another Recce Guy said:
			
		

> While not officially mess dress, I was wondering if anybody knows where I can get my hands on a pattern forPatrol Dress?   Different Regiments have slight differences in it but it is all basically the same.   Can anyone help?



The trousers/overalls would be the same as your normal regimental pattern for full and mess dress.  The tunics are standard less highland regiments.  Unfortunately you would have to find an older dress reg that has your regt/corps in it.  From my research, viewing, etc. they were quite standard less badges, sashes, mail etc.

P.S.  They make midnight blue doeskin.  I think it runs over 300 bux a metre.


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## hockeysgal (18 Feb 2005)

I've looked at a few of the photos posted on this thread and the mess kit is nice...  But does anyone have photos of women in mess dress, I would like to see what the differences are (if any)

thanks


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## my72jeep (19 Feb 2005)

infantry officer said:
			
		

> I've looked at a few of the photos posted on this thread and the mess kit is nice...   But does anyone have photos of women in mess dress, I would like to see what the differences are (if any)
> 
> thanks



replace the pants with a floor lenght skirt


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## DaveK (19 Feb 2005)

The jackets are different as well if you decide to wear the skirt.


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## Riobeard (31 Mar 2005)

I know that things differ from branch to branch, but does any one know the definitive answer to who wears the waist coat and who wears a cummerbund with mess kit?  I've seen them both on NCM's and Officers but does anyone know / have access to the actual regulations, appendix and  annex to same?


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## dangerboy (1 Apr 2005)

I can only speak for the PPCLI, from our Regimental Manual: Waistcoat will be reservered for officer and CWO wear only.  Cummerbund will be worn by all MWO's and bellow and may be worn by officers and CWO's.


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## Horse_Soldier (1 Apr 2005)

Mess kit configuration is a regimental/branch thing, since a mess kit is not a uniform, so there is no set rule that applies army-wide,i.e no definitive answer on cummberbund vs waistcoat.


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## Acorn (2 Apr 2005)

Sorry, mess kit is a uniform, though not issue. There are regulations governing the design, cut and wear of mess kit. In any case, I believe most Regiments/Branches limit waistcoat to CWO/Officer with other NCMs restricted to cummerbund. Which only goes to show that there is still no definitive answer.

Acorn


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2005)

The general rule for the Armoured Corps is both waistcoat or cumberbund are allowed for all ranks. Each Regiment however has it's options. These mostly have to do with, but are not limited to, the type and colour of stripe on the overalls and colour variations for the jacket.

The rules and standards for Mess Kit are found in the CF Dress Regs and are broken down by Element, then Corps, then Regiment where applicable.


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## rifleman (2 Apr 2005)

If a unit is authorized both, cummerbunds are normally summer wear and vests are for winter wear. Some units that are authorized both choose to ignore the dress manual and stick with their own tradition.


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## PViddy (5 Apr 2005)

On the topic of mess kit.  Can anyone fill me in on Airforce Officer mess dress?  Do you typically wear an Airforce tartan cumberbund ? and how much does AF mess dress cost...typically.  I know most Army O's sit around a grand.  Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

cheers,

PV


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## X-Rigger (5 Apr 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> On the topic of mess kit.   Can anyone fill me in on Airforce Officer mess dress?   Do you typically wear an Airforce tartan cumberbund ? and how much does AF mess dress cost...typically.   I know most Army O's sit around a grand.   Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> PV



You can expect to pay around $600 to $700, including the accoutrements that you'll have to buy separately (cummerbund, bowtie, white shirt, cufflinks, buttons, etc).

Cheers,

X-Rigger


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## medicineman (5 Apr 2005)

Here's the link for the Dress Regs for Mess uniforms - ftp://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/Downloads/Dhh/CFPs/cfp265.pdf.  Go to Chap 6, Appendix 1, Annex B for mess uniforms.

PS - For medical, waistcoats are CWO and above.

MM


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## PViddy (5 Apr 2005)

The link didn't work.  Is it DIN ? i heard AF mess kit was significantly cheaper, but then agan that is why i am posting.

thanks for the info.

cheers


PV


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## Inch (6 Apr 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> On the topic of mess kit.   Can anyone fill me in on Airforce Officer mess dress?   Do you typically wear an Airforce tartan cucummerbund and how much does AF mess dress cost...typically.   I know most Army O's sit around a grand.   Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> PV



There is a CIC (Air) cumberbund, my understanding of it is that only air ops wear the tartan, other branches (EME, Log, CE, etc) have their own cumberbund even though they wear the Air Force DEU. IE, have a look at your cap badge and if it doesn't say "per ardua ad astra" then you're not air ops. Though that said, I've seen all kinds of people wearing it so I don't think anyone really cares.

I paid $500 for my mess kit, Andrei's in Kingston Ontario.


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## medicineman (6 Apr 2005)

The link is on the DIN - you may need to actually look just for the Dress Regs online if it isn't working or see if there's a hard copy lying around at work.

Good Luck.

MM


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## PViddy (6 Apr 2005)

That was some of the clarification i was looking for.  Thanks Inch.  Any other info would be helpful.

MM, i think i can probably track down the dress regs on the web somwhere, thanks for your help.


cheers gentleman,

PV


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## EW (30 Jun 2005)

Question on mess kit.  Finally broke down and bought a set of mess dress.  I know that the Regimental/Branch traditions vary on a few of the finer points, but does anyone know what type of tuxedo shirt is worn with the standard CF mess dress pattern?  I know it is a laydown collar, with french cuffs, what I'm specifically wondering is whether it is pleats or no pleats (the folds in front of some tuxedo shirts)?  ??? 

Any help appreciated ..... Cheers .... and have a Happy Canada Day


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## Michael OLeary (30 Jun 2005)

Most regiments/corps go with the pleated front. Full collar or wingtip collar should be specified in the applicable regimental/corps standing orders. It is, however, one area where you will find individual variances (selection of shirt collar, cufflinks and button studs, watchchain on waistcoat ....)..


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## EW (30 Jun 2005)

Thanks very much RCR.

That is what I thought, but it is always good to hear it from another.  I'm in a 'purple' trade, and while there are plenty of traditions upheld, it can be a hodge podge at times.

Regards .... vvv ...


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## 1feral1 (30 Jun 2005)

When I was in the CF, I had a CF Navy 'issue' white long sleeve shirt, and I still use that shirt here with my Aussie Mess Kit. Just got to bleach it every so often, as its seen a few too many mess dinners. Still   crsip and sharp as ever though.

As for Mess Kit here in Australia, its issued, so you don't have to buy it like in Canada. I wonder if it will ever be on the issue scale for SNCOs WOs and Officers?

Issue as fol:

- trousers w/suspenders - black w/red stripe (suspenders are white)
- tunic - white
- shirt - white
- bow tie - black
- cumberbun - different colours = different corps - example red RAAOC, navy blue RAEME
- corps and army embellishments - collar dogs, shoulder titles, etc

Cheers,

Wes


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## EW (30 Jun 2005)

Thanks Wesley,

I don't think we'll see issued Mess Dress anytime soon in the CF.   I'm still a little surprised that officers can be forced to purchase it, since it is not issued - hmmmm - maybe that is why the ADF issues it, at least for the officers, because in today's age they can't be made to purchase it.   Whatever the reason it's a good deal.

Hope you are enjoying your time in Oz.   I've served with mbrs of 7 Sigs Regt (EW) who were on exchange in Canada, and I've visited their unit in Toowoomba - when travelling on leave a few years ago.   It was quite a good time.   If you are ever up near Adelaide River (a bit out of the way I know) there is a Canadian Lieutentant buried in the Commonwealth War Cemetery there.   He was serving with about 291 other Canadians near Darwin during WWII, as part of No.1 Canadian Special Wireless Group (nowadays we call it Signals Intelligence), when he died of a tropical disease.

Cheers .... and have a happy Canada Day ... one thing I've learned from the Aussies is that they are never ones to shy away from patriotic pride, and I'm sure they understand your love for all things with a Maple Leaf


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## 1feral1 (1 Jul 2005)

To celebrate Canada Day, tomorrow morning its pancakes ( and bacon) with genine Canadian maple syrup (Camps), plus I have a Molson's Canadian Tshirt for tomorrow too.

Seems I have a pic of that grave in the NT, taken by some friends who pased thru back in 96 while on duty. Sadly even now there is plenty of tropical bugs which still can be picked up easily.

I passed thru Toowoomba in April, also thru Roma, Charleville, ending up in Winton some 20 hrs later, but that is another story.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## Strike (1 Jul 2005)

My mess kit shirt has a white front, white collar, and white cuffs.  Of course the sleeves and the back panel are made of completely different materials with some funky pattern.  Unfortunately the neck is getting a little too small and I will be forced to find some new, extreme patterns when I have to get a new shirt.


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