# Article: "America Could Have Been One Giant Sweden "



## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

Interesting article, taking the long view of history. Really puts the triumph of corporate power over state power and civil society in perspective. The place we are collectively going is not good.

http://www.alternet.org/america-could-have-been-one-giant-sweden-instead-it-looks-lot-soviet-union



> [/These days, it’s usually just right-wing nuts who sound like old-fashioned convergence theorists. They’re the ones who label President Obama a secret agent of European socialism and believe that his health care plan will pollute the country’s precious bodily fluids, much as Dr. Strangelove’s General Jack D. Ripper worried about fluoridation. Despite the ornate fantasies of such figures, the United States has clearly moved in the opposite direction. Today’s Democrats are considerably more conservative economically than the Republicans of the 1970s and the Republicans have effectively purged all moderates from their ranks in their surge rightward.
> 
> Instead of converging toward Scandinavian socialism, the U.S. has been slouching toward illiberalism for some time now. The Tea Party bemoans the “nanny” and “gun-control” state, _*but misses the deeply sinister ways in which that state has been captured by the forces of illiberality.*_ The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth. Our political system has been taken over by a club of the rich -- our own nomenklatura -- with corruption so embedded that no one dares call it by that name and critics instead speak of the “revolving door” and “voter suppression” and the “influence of money in politics.” The deterioration of public infrastructure has, as in the Soviet Union in the 1970s, turned the country into an embarrassment of falling bridges, exploding gas lines, bursting pipelines, backward railroads, unsecured power plants, and potential ecological catastrophes.
> quote]


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2015)

The problem with all these statements is that the US is really 51 countries struggling to travel the same general direction. While some of the Federal issues remain consistent across the board, most of the issues are generally within the powers of the States which guard them jealously.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2015)

*The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth.*

Yup......gotta hate a place where criminals actually get caught and punished instead of actually running the country.
If some folks only had a clue..........


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## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> *The United States has expanded its archipelago of incarceration, our homegrown gulag, so dramatically that we have more people in prison -- in total and by percentage of population -- than any developed country on Earth.*
> 
> Yup......gotta hate a place where criminals actually get caught and punished instead of actually running the country.
> If some folks only had a clue..........



Well seeing as the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world, we can infer a few things. Americans are more prone to crime than other nationalities, or the justice system isn't effective when it comes to rates of recidivism. OR, the US justice system jails people for minor offenses, such as possession, traffic offenses etc (African-Americans are disproportionately represented here). Any way you slice it, this is clearly a systemic problem and unique to the US. So yeah, GOTTA hate that place. It's falling apart.


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## Kirkhill (27 May 2015)

I love Sweden and Swedes.

But.

There is an argument to be made that Sweden is an Illiberal State.  There is a strong Oligarchy in Sweden based around a small group of families that share the directorships of Sweden's companies.   This situation gave rise to a string of conspiracy theories on the death of Olaf Palme who was challenging the status quo.

Sweden can be seen as a kindler, gentler corporatist state where the oligarchs have fully understood the benefits of enlightened benevolence.


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## pbi (27 May 2015)

Maybe it's just my nasty left-wing "progressiveness" showing, but is there some kind of correlation between how loudly people yell about "state control" and "nanny state" and "freedom", and their seemingly unquestioning support for ever more laws about taking away peoples' freedom and rights, based on less and less evidence? How do you balance those two things?

Oh, sorry, I forgot...it won't be "them" that gets scooped up, will it. Of course not.

The problem with saying "yes, but _*I*_ haven't done anything wrong, so _*I*_ have nothing to hide", is that _*you *_don't get to decide what "wrong" is. The government does. That might work for you today, but governments and agendas change: the " party base" of today may be the "outliers" of tomorrow. But governments are always reluctant to shed powers.

So, let's have laws, but let's have bloody good safeguards too: "sunset" provisions, elected oversight, a boisterous, aggressive Opposition, a free media, and a truly independent judiciary.


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## YZT580 (27 May 2015)

The rate of incarceration in the States is directly proportional to the breakdown in family values and the two parent family system.


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## Ostrozac (27 May 2015)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The rate of incarceration in the States is directly proportional to the breakdown in family values and the two parent family system.



I don't know about that. While the US has a high rate of birth outside marriage (41%), western countries that have even higher rates of birth outside marriage, like the UK, Sweden and France have low rates of incarceration. Actually, western countries that still do the birth in marriage thing to a greater degree than the US (like Canada, Australia, and Italy) also have low rates of incarceration -- roughly comparable to that of the UK, Sweden and France.

The rate of incarceration in the US is unique among nations -- nobody locks people up like the United States does. It's the ultimate American exceptionalism. It is arguable that the number one cause that leads to incarceration is being an American.

http://worldfamilymap.org/2014/e-ppendix/figure5

http://www.prisonstudies.org/research-publications?shs_term_node_tid_depth=27


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2015)

But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> traffic offenses



Yea, well when you have someone get killed from an asshole that should have stayed in jail maybe you'll shut your gob a little.....or go to a place where traffic rules don't matter and getting killed/injured is just part of expectations.


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## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.



If you're suggesting that the high rate of incarceration in the US is due to illegal immigration, there is zero data to back that up. The reasons are quite easy to track. I would argue the rise of the "moral majority" in the US and the steeper minimum sentences for minor crimes like drug possession are to blame. But why let data get in the way? 

The root of this problem is what is categorized these days as "_*conservative thinking*_. Punishment is better than rehabilitation, corporate rights (private prisons) are more important than individual rights and civil society, damn the evidence (Long Form Census anyone?), these polices FEEL good. We should probably have a thread on this site entitled "The problem with Conservative thinking", because it's that approach that has put us on the road to corporate despotism and an illiberal government acting on it's behalf.

[urlhttp://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/incarceration.aspx][/url]



> For decades, the United States had a relatively stable prison population. That changed in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Some factors included a rise in crime from the 1960s to 1980s; rising concerns over crack cocaine and other drugs, resulting in huge increases in drug penalties; a move to mandatory minimum sentences; and the implementation of other tough-on-crime policies, such as "three-strikes" laws and policies to ensure prisoners served at least 85 percent of their sentences. These harsher sentencing laws coupled with the dramatic increase in drug penalties added up to a state and federal prison population of 1.5 million, up from 200,000 in 1973. And that's not including nearly 750,000 Americans in jails on a daily basis (as well as an annual jail population of close to 13 million, says Tangney).
> 
> This growth is "historically unprecedented" in the United States and "internationally unique," the report concludes.
> 
> What's more, the movement toward broad, punitive crime control and prison policies wasn't based on any scientific rationale, says Haney, who studies the psychological effects of incarceration. "Rather, it was largely the product of a series of policy decisions made for largely political reasons," he says. "For whatever reason, legislators and other politicians have found it politically advantageous and expedient to continue to pursue a strategy of punitive crime control policies irrespective of the cost of that policy."



The US "tough on crime" approach has failed. So it's just the right time for Canada to hop on that train right? Because that's what our current government would have us think.


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## ModlrMike (27 May 2015)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I don't know about that. While the US has a high rate of birth outside marriage (41%), western countries that have even higher rates of birth outside marriage, like the UK, Sweden and France have low rates of incarceration. Actually, western countries that still do the birth in marriage thing to a greater degree than the US (like Canada, Australia, and Italy) also have low rates of incarceration -- roughly comparable to that of the UK, Sweden and France.
> 
> The rate of incarceration in the US is unique among nations -- nobody locks people up like the United States does. It's the ultimate American exceptionalism. It is arguable that the number one cause that leads to incarceration is being an American.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure that birth outside of marriage matters, rather that absentee fathers matters more. I think the difference between western Europe and America has more to do with lack of a quality male role model in America, where in Europe it's more a rejection of a religious obligation to have a church sanctioned joining.

Since the early 1980s we have seen the demise of the traditional male roll model in favour of the metrosexual who has no idea of which end of a spanner to use, let alone what a spanner looks like for example. I'm not going to descend into a "poor males" diatribe here, but if you watch just a little television, ask yourself what kind of father figure is being displayed. 

Good, strong parenting that teaches children right from wrong, and provides a positive model for functioning in society contributes more to a good, productive adulthood than whether or not your parents tied the knot.

I'll leave you with this quote from the Daily Mail:

'Academic studies repeatedly show that children with involved fathers do far better at school, have a much lower chance of getting involved in crime and have better mental health. So shouldn't we be celebrating and encouraging what dads do, instead of mocking them?'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2340677/Why-does-TV-portray-dad-dimwit.html#ixzz3bMVwM25x


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## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yea, well when you have someone get killed from an ******* that should have stayed in jail maybe you'll shut your gob a little.....or go to a place where traffic rules don't matter and getting killed/injured is just part of expectations.




Why am I not surprised that I have to explain I was referring to things like a busted tail light or not signaling? 





			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that birth outside of marriage matters, rather that absentee fathers matters more. I think the difference between western Europe and America has more to do with lack of a quality male role model in America, where in Europe it's more a rejection of a religious obligation to have a church sanctioned joining.
> 
> Since the early 1980s we have seen the demise of the traditional male roll model in favour of the metrosexual who has no idea of which end of a spanner to use, let alone what a spanner looks like for example. I'm not going to descend into a "poor males" diatribe here, but if you watch just a little television, ask yourself what kind of father figure is being displayed.
> 
> ...



These are exactly the emotional arguments in place of reason based arguments I am referring to in my above post. The APA article I posted above points to clear policy shifts and corresponding rises in incarceration rates. Again, this is easily tracked. Your notion of "metrosexuals" not being able to fix your car is irrelevant, even though it might fit your particular vision of the world.

The original article is unique in that it picks out the desirable traits in socialism (and dare I say it, communism) as well as the desirable traits of capitalism (economic productivity, innovation etc). Of course, to understand the overall thrust of the article, we have to accept our current system is broken, not because of the left, but because of the *right*. 

We have swung hard to the right in terms of economic policy while simultaneously giving governments far more power solely in the military and security sphere.  Things are not getting better, they are getting worse. We have governments with unprecedented power acting on behalf of the corporate world. This is the reality the original article is describing. Getting out of this mess requires nuanced and reasoned policies, maybe even (shock horror) things like increasing revenue (taxes!), more government controls on the economy and a revitalized social safety net.


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## George Wallace (27 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> If you're suggesting that the high rate of incarceration in the US is due to illegal immigration,




Ummmmm?  Please pay attention to detail:



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> But their crime rate is falling from a remarkable high rate. Let see how some of these countries handle a proportional influx of 11 million illegal immigrants as well.



Referring to the large numbers of migrants entering Europe from North Africa, which likely have radical Muslims in the mix.


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## ModlrMike (27 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Your notion of "metrosexuals" not being able to fix your car is irrelevant, even though it might fit your particular vision of the world.



It's completely relevant because it's not about fixing my car, it's about fixing your own. Being able to perform basic maintenance and repair serves to demonstrate to your children a sense of self reliance, and that they don't have to be dependent on other people for everything.



			
				Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> The original article is unique in that it picks out the desirable traits in socialism (and dare I say it, communism) as well as the desirable traits of capitalism (economic productivity, innovation etc). Of course, to understand the overall thrust of the article, we have to accept our current system is broken, not because of the left, but because of the *right*.



You're entitled to you opinion, but I contend that the removal of people's obligation to look after themselves first has been more damaging.


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## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> It's completely relevant because it's not about fixing my car, it's about fixing your own. Being able to perform basic maintenance and repair serves to demonstrate to your children a sense of self reliance, and that they don't have to be dependent on other people for everything.
> 
> You're entitled to you opinion, but I contend that the removal of people's obligation to look after themselves first has been more damaging.



Haha it doesn't matter whose car we're talking about or what you contend. Look I'm all up for a debate, but the simple fact is nothing you've said is backed up by any data or verifiable study on crime rates. There's also the fact that they are *FALLING.*  It's the *incarceration* rates that are rising. :facepalm: So by your logic, falling crime rates can be attributed to kids NOT learning to take care of themselves.  I don't know about you, but putting people in jail for minor crimes is the epitome of the so-called "nanny state".


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2015)

The high incarnation rate were a direct response to the very high crime rates and imposition of the "3 strikes your out rule" 

One can argue that the possession laws for small quantities of pot are pointless and pot should be legalized. This would likely reduce the rate of minor crime incarceration, you would eventually see a minor increase in the more major crimes as the possession charges are often a tactic used to take career criminals off the street as there is not enough evidence to successfully charge them for the greater crimes.

The majority of of the population is in State/county prisons and only around 8% in "for profit prisons"

The issue of "fatherless households" is one that can be directly linked to the liberalization of the concept of family, the hippy era and has been particularly destructive to the Black community which previously had been fairly robust up to that point despite social pressures from outside.


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## Kirkhill (27 May 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The high incarnation incarceration rate were a direct response to the very high crime rates and imposition of the "3 strikes your out rule"
> 
> .....



FTFY  

Or did you really mean the increased birth rate?  Or perhaps there has been a spike in reincarnations of which I am unaware?


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## dapaterson (27 May 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The issue of "fatherless households" is one that can be directly linked to the liberalization of the concept of family, the hippy era and has been particularly destructive to the Black community which previously had been fairly robust up to that point despite social pressures from outside.



The "fatherless household" issue is also influenced by the incarceration rate; there are large intedependencies between these issues.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 May 2015)

I knew I shouldn't have looked in here  :facepalm:


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## Kilo_302 (27 May 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I knew I shouldn't have looked in here  :facepalm:



Here's an article just for you.

[/http://www.salon.com/2013/09/15/inside_the_conservative_brain_what_explains_their_wiring/url]


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## Kirkhill (27 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Here's an article just for you.
> 
> [/http://www.salon.com/2013/09/15/i..._their_wiring/url]
> [/quote]
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (27 May 2015)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> FTFY
> 
> Or did you really mean the increased birth rate?  Or perhaps there has been a spike in reincarnations of which I am unaware?



Guilty of spell check stupidity and to many things cluttering my brain   :surrender:


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## pbi (27 May 2015)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The rate of incarceration in the States is directly proportional to the breakdown in family values and the two parent family system.



Really? Or are they related symptoms of something else? Or is there actually no relation at all?  Are the children of all  single moms condemned to lives of crime? Or just single moms of a particular slice of society?


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## pbi (27 May 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> ...The issue of "fatherless households" is one that can be directly linked to the liberalization of the concept of family, the hippy era and has been particularly destructive to the Black community which previously had been fairly robust up to that point despite social pressures from outside.



I doubt very much that any of these things had much impact on the black community in the US in the 1960's, which is (my guess) roughly when things really started to come unbolted for that group. I would look at generational poverty, bad (or non-existent) education, and the rise of the "gangsta" as the role model for young black men.


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## a_majoor (29 May 2015)

While America, like any nation, has its share of issues, it must be galling to Kilo that America is still the number one destination of all the world's nations for immigrants, rather than Sweden.

And since Kilo is always fending off any counterargument by saying there is no "evidence", I suppose he can sort us out by pointing to the high numbers of immigrants to socialist nations. I am curious to see what his research says about the DPRK, for example. While he is researching that, he might also look into the incarceration policies of that nation as well...


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## Colin Parkinson (29 May 2015)

good luck finding anything on their policies, it's the whim of the day it seem.

As I pointed out, the prison population issue is a State by State issue, not a USA Federal Government issue. Since the State legislatures are democratically elected, it would appear that the voters in the majority of the States appear to be content with the status quo.


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## Kilo_302 (29 May 2015)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While America, like any nation, has its share of issues, it must be galling to Kilo that America is still the number one destination of all the world's nations for immigrants, rather than Sweden.
> 
> And since Kilo is always fending off any counterargument by saying there is no "evidence", I suppose he can sort us out by pointing to the high numbers of immigrants to socialist nations. I am curious to see what his research says about the DPRK, for example. While he is researching that, he might also look into the incarceration policies of that nation as well...



America has great marketing, what can I say? New immigrants to the US have it far worse off than new immigrants to say, Canada, or most European countries. Why you ask? Because we have social safety nets, healthcare etc etc. Flat taxes, lack of government spending/investment, "austerity" lead us to a new feudal age where the wealthy few literally buy power and run politics. This is America now, and we're headed there too. Is this what you are arguing in favour of? Does inherited wealth really translate into "I worked hard to get where I am?" Are you really this eager to be a serf?  I am not.

You're a smart and seemingly well read person. If you're actually calling the DPRK "socialist" and comparing it to socialist democracies (there are not many) then I don't know what to say. That's like calling China communist.


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## a_majoor (29 May 2015)

Wow, you must be really good at "escape and evasion" exercises....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 May 2015)

Actually he's Brian The Dog on Family Guy........comes across as the spokesman for the downtrodden yet in reality is an absolute racist.
Obviously "new immigrants" are just too stupid to tell the rest of their countrymen not to come also........


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## tomahawk6 (29 May 2015)

I suppose in hindsight its a good thing for Canada,that the Americans were unable to make Canada part of the United States.Because Canada is an attractive alternative to gulag America. ;D


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## a_majoor (29 May 2015)

I know. Look at the vast flood of American "Progressives" and Hollywood figures who have renounced their US citizenship and fled to Canada over the last two decades. Shortages of Volvo's, personal valets and mineral water have plagued many of these overcrowded B&B resorts... ;D


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## Underway (29 May 2015)

I would argue the larger rates of incarceration are a direct result of a lack of a social saftey net.  Compare the states in the US that have a robust social safety net rates of incarceration to those that do not.  It could be argued that the same states that implement social programs are more progressive than those that do not and therefore have laws that use alternative modes of rehabilitation, or you could argue that if you are on welfare you don't need to sell drugs, steal to get money for your purchases of whatever (be that drugs, medical help, rent, iPhone etc... etc.. I'm not trying to label welfare ppl as good or bad here).  

Also the US has a horrible education system in many places and education reduces poverty.  Poverty is very high in many places of the US and perhaps the highest in the developed world.  Poverty often leads to crime or at least the kind that gets you incarcerated at a high rate.  Look at the Canadian situation of First Nations in northern reserves, where the poverty, crime and incarceration rates are all extremely high.  You can quickly compare and contrast reserves that have a higher income for whatever reason with those that don't and see that poverty changes things not for the better.

Finally in the US there is a strong individual freedom streak.  Anything that is percieved to impinge individuals rights is dealt with very very harshly.  Combined with a strong fundamentalist religious basis it leads to a strong eye for an eye mentality.

Lots of factors in the US having a high rate of incarceration.  Its a societal thing more than a crime and punishment thing though.


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## tomahawk6 (29 May 2015)

Nobody throws more money at education than does the US- with mixed results, which I blame on the teachers unions.Nobody spends more on welfare than the US as well.Again we do a poor job.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/08/22/study-welfare-recipients-in-md-dc-make-more-than-twice-minimum-wage/


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## Kilo_302 (29 May 2015)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Actually he's Brian The Dog on Family Guy........comes across as the spokesman for the downtrodden yet in reality is an absolute racist.
> Obviously "new immigrants" are just too stupid to tell the rest of their countrymen not to come also........




You have a truly dizzying intellect.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> You have a truly dizzying intellect.



I appreciate that....thank you.


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## cupper (29 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> America has great marketing, what can I say? New immigrants to the US have it far worse off than new immigrants to say, Canada, or most European countries. Why you ask? Because we have social safety nets, healthcare etc etc. Flat taxes, lack of government spending/investment, "austerity" lead us to a new feudal age where the wealthy few literally buy power and run politics. This is America now, and we're headed there too. Is this what you are arguing in favour of? Does inherited wealth really translate into "I worked hard to get where I am?" Are you really this eager to be a serf?  I am not.



That hurt just reading it.


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## Jungle (30 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Why am I not surprised that I have to explain I was referring to things like a busted tail light or not signaling?



Like other members of this forum, I live in the USA. I live, shop, bank in the local community, and travel to other states regularly. I have never seen or heard of someone being jailed for the reasons mentionned above, and I have seen busted tail lights, countless turns without a signal and other traffic offences on a regular basis, just like in Canada.
I suspect if people are jailed following these, and other very minor infractions, it has more to do with past offenses, or what they did or said when they were stopped for the infraction.

I think you just like to hate the USA, but I have no evidence to prove that...


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## tomahawk6 (30 May 2015)

Recently while traveling at night I was pulled over by a trooper.He explained that my license plate light was out and he asked me several questions.He then sent me on my way.I later  recounted the incident to a friend thats a judge.He explained that the trooper was looking for drunken drivers and used the license plate light as the means to justify a stop.Had I been drinking the night may have gone very differently.


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## George Wallace (30 May 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Recently while traveling at night I was pulled over by a trooper.He explained that my license plate light was out and he asked me several questions.He then sent me on my way.I later  recounted the incident to a friend thats a judge.He explained that the trooper was looking for drunken drivers and used the license plate light as the means to justify a stop.Had I been drinking the night may have gone very differently.



Did you double check your light?


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## George Wallace (30 May 2015)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I think you just like to hate the USA, but I have no evidence to prove that...



Not to mention "hate Harper".  (But that is for another thread.)   >


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## tomahawk6 (30 May 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Did you double check your light?



I never gave it a thought.I do now !!  ;D


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## jollyjacktar (30 May 2015)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Well seeing as the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world, we can infer a few things. Americans are more prone to crime than other nationalities, or the justice system isn't effective when it comes to rates of recidivism. OR, the US justice system jails people for minor offenses, such as possession, traffic offenses etc (African-Americans are disproportionately represented here). Any way you slice it, this is clearly a systemic problem and unique to the US. So yeah, GOTTA hate that place. It's falling apart.


Wow, I am having a hard time believing the BS you're spouting in many of these threads.  What a wanker...  you're a first for me.  You're going on ignore.


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## George Wallace (30 May 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wow, I am having a hard time believing the BS you're spouting in many of these threads.  What a wanker...  you're a first for me.  You're going on ignore.



The laughable thing about his stats on what nation has the highest incarceration rates is the obvious disregard as to why they may and other nations may not.  Of course the fact that nations like North Korea, China (at times), Middle Eastern and Southwest Asian nations may have lower incarceration rates could be due to the fact that instead of incarcerating people, they execute them.  I wonder what Kilo_302 can dig up for us there?  After all: "Stats don't lie."  >


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## a_majoor (30 May 2015)

I also notice that Kilo fails to mention that the GDP per capita is quite a bit lower in Sweden. For comparison:

IMF
USA        Rank 10   GDP/Capita  55,597
Sweden   Rank 17   GDP/Capita  45,986

World Bank
USA       Rank 10    GDP/Capita  53,042
Sweden  Rank 15    GDP/Capita  44,658

CIA
USA        Rank 19   GDP/Capita 55,800
Swenden Rank 26   GDP/Capita 44,700

Making allowances for different methodologies, it seems being a "giant Sweden" would make America and Americans significantly poorer. Or is the real goal to force everyone to live an impoverished existence? Of the nations which have higher per capita GDP than the United States, I can quickly discount places like Qatar, since they are single source resource driven figures, and focus on replicating the success of places like Hong Kong or Singapore by examining the reasons for _their_ success.


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## pbi (1 Jun 2015)

It isn't much wonder why the US gets more immigrants than, say, Denmark or Finland. Based on what the average immigrant likely understands about the US, it's a no-brainer.  (Not to mention the fact that a goodly number of "developed Western nations") seem to be struggling with the whole concept of having any immigrants at all, and not very happy with the ones they've got...)

And, as far as I can see, tons of immigrants continue to do well in the US, just as they do in Canada.  And, of course, some immigrant groups don't do well at all, again just like Canada.

But I don't think that allows anybody to deny that America has some very serious social problems, and has had them for a while. In 1997 I visited the FBI Academy at Quantico. The FBI official who spoke with us made the point that (at that time) the biggest single cause of death for young black American males was gunshot wounds. If I understand correctly, US prisons at both Federal and State levels are disproportionately full of blacks and Hispanics. Not, I think, because the US justice system is inherently racist, (most of the inmates are probably guilty) but because of the ancient truth that poverty and hopelessness breed crime.

I'm not sure how much blame lies on the US education system, although no doubt it has a role. My experience with the US education system was limited to having two kids in it for a year, in suburban Virginia. While I was very impressed with the standards in the county we lived in, I understood from others (both Canadians living in the US, and Americans) that there were large variances between states, and perhaps even between counties.

I doubt very much whether this could simply be blamed on "teachers unions" as Tomahawk suggests. I think you would need to cross-check academic results in a given state with the level of teacher labour activism before you could say that. In my opinion it's probably more about how much money the state/county is willing to spend on education, and how important voters think education really is. Pretty much like Canada.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jun 2015)

The education system is the root of the problem.  The US has problems with failed urban school systems the same way Canada has failed systems on - or serving - some reserves.  There are places in both countries where few give a hoot about attendance, let alone achievement.  Kids graduate with courtesy passes, which the real world recognizes as worthless.  Teacher unions, and by association Democratic politicians and groups, come under fire for resistance to reform.  Chicago and Washington DC are examples (horrible warnings).

A deficient education essentially closes nearly all other doors and thereby fuels nearly all social problems.

Lack of money isn't the explanation.  Inflation-adjusted per-pupil funding in the US, as in Canada, is generally at all-time highs.  And this shouldn't simply be shuffled off as "overpaid teachers", either.  In the US, teacher remuneration is probably too low, while in Canada it is probably too high.  Regardless, a lot of funding has been consumed by non-teaching functions.  What needs to change is allocation, not total amount.

To paraphrase what I've written earlier: every year the rice bowl holders spend pursuing their own political interests and demanding political self-abasement from their political foes, another cohort of young people is lost.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Jun 2015)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Like other members of this forum, I live in the USA. I live, shop, bank in the local community, and travel to other states regularly. I have never seen or heard of someone being jailed for the reasons mentionned above, and I have seen busted tail lights, countless turns without a signal and other traffic offences on a regular basis, just like in Canada.
> I suspect if people are jailed following these, and other very minor infractions, it has more to do with past offenses, or what they did or said when they were stopped for the infraction.
> 
> I think you just like to hate the USA, but I have no evidence to prove that...



He hates everything contrary to his opinion.


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## cupper (2 Jun 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> He hates everything contrary to his opinion.



And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate
Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake
I shake it off, I shake it off

- Taylor Swift

 >


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## a_majoor (9 Jun 2015)

Economics commentator Megan McArdle suggests that if America were to become a giant Sweden, Sweden could not afford to _be_ Sweden. This is simply another example of PM Margaret Thatcher's observation that eventually Socialists run out of other people's money. So long as the Americans are vastly larger and wealthier than the Swedes, there is enough "other people's money" in trade, innovation and so on to support Socialist nations like Sweden:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-08/u-s-can-t-import-the-scandinavian-model



> *U.S. Can't Import the Scandinavian Model*
> Jun 8, 2015 9:00 AM EDT
> by Megan McArdle
> 
> ...


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## Danjanou (9 Jun 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I knew I shouldn't have looked in here  :facepalm:



Yeah me too. Next time warn a guy will ya. :


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