# Re: Victoria Rifles



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sat, 08 Apr 2000 16:46:45 -0700*
Rhett Lawson from Ian Edwards
It would be like trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs now
there‘s an expression no one has heard for decades for me to try to
counter what a former 2ic of the RMR has to say about his own Regiment‘s
ancestry - so I won‘t. But the 14th Battalion is perpetuated by ONLY the
RMR, although the units he mentioned are given credit for "raising" the
14th.
Interesting to me at least that I was one of the last members of the
CF to wear the uniform of the Victoria Rifles! I know this is stretching
things more than a little, but in 1967 members of The Loyal Edmonton
Regiment mounted a ceremonial guard at Fort Edmonton in La Rounde at
Expo 67 in Montreal. We wore replicas of the uniform, badges, buttons,
etc. of the Victoria Rifles of 1870 actually then they were the 3rd
Battlion Victoria Rifles of Canada complete with old Martini Enfield
IIRC? rifles and the drill of the period. the rifles may have been
circa 1890 out of expendiency, I can‘t recall. I was the guard sergeant
for a week or more and had a ****  of a good time in Montreal, raising
and lowering the Flag, changing the old and new guards, posting the
guard, drinking beer at Your Father‘s Moustache, "dating" La Ronde tour
guides, drinking at the Club Parisienne in East Montreal but not
alone, quartered at the Black Watch armoury, etc, etc!
Rhett wrote:
> 
> Hello Ian and John
> 
> Just to let you know Ian that the reference to the RMR formation is in fact the
> following:
> 
> The 14th Canadian Infantry Battalion, later designated by special warrant as the
> "Royal Montreal Regiment", was quickly raised in September 1914.  The RMR
> Battalion was formed from cadres coy strength presented by three Montreal
> Regiments the 1st Regiment Canadian Grenadier Guards, the 3rd Regiment Victoria
> Rifles of Canada and the 65th Regiment Les Carabiniers MontRoyal later to be
> known as the Fusiliars de MontRoyal.  The Minister of Militia and Defence ordered
> the amalgamation to expedite the departure of the 1st Canadian Contingent to
> Europe.  The 14th Battalion became one of four units comprising the 3rd Infantry
> Brigade.
> 
> After demobilization and the reorganization of the Canadian Militia, the 14th
> Canadian Battalion Royal Montreal Regiment C.E.F. and the 58th Westmount Rifles
> were amalgamated into one unit - The Royal Montreal Regiment on July 2, 1920.
> 
> The RMR proudly displays its origins in the armoury and its association with the
> Vics, CGG, and the FMR as well as with the 58th and the 23rd Bns.
> 
> And that‘s the way it was.
> 
> Rhett Lawson
> former RMR SunRay
> 
> Ian Edwards wrote:
> 
> > To John Hill from Ian Edwards:
> >
> > I‘m not sure if we are agreeing with each other or not. Perhaps the
> > question is rather moot. The facts ARE that the Victoria Rifles of
> > Canada were offically "reduced to nil strength" and "placed upon the
> > Supplementary Order of Battle List March 5, 1965." Nearly all of the
> > many 252 infantry battalions Mounted Rifles, etc. of WW1 were
> > actually, officially, disbanded in 1920 according to various General
> > Orders published that year.
> >
> > I‘m not sure of your tense "the RMR was placed in the Militia".
> > Actually, the RMR began, officially, as the 58th Westmount Rifles in
> > 1914 and in its present designation acquired in 1920 still going
> > strong. It has never had any connection with the Victoria Rifles, at
> > least on paper.
> >
> > As to why certain regiments were disbanded in 1964/65 or 1968 almost all
> > bit the dust because they were either "rural" or didn‘t have any
> > significant WW2 overseas service or because there were too many units in
> > one location and someone had to go, usually the one with the least
> > significant service. There are exceptions for eg. 4PLDG, I would argue,
> > went while RdeHull nearby stayed - you can guess the reason for that
> > choice
> >
> > I don‘t think there was any shame in any of them being disbanded call
> > it what you want. Clearly, the Cdn Abn Regt disbanded under a great
> > cloud - one can argue until the cows come home whether it was bound to
> > happen, Somalia or not. I‘ve nothing to add to that debate - all the
> > points have been made several times.
> >
> > John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > Those Regiments were never for the most part disbanded, but placed on the
> > > inactive list.  Their were exceptions and decisions, for example the Royal
> > > Montreal Regiment was placed in the Militia.  While its sister regiment, The
> > > Victoria Rifles, was disbanded.  In this case because there were too many
> > > units in a geographical area.  No shame was attached, in fact the unit
> > > served honourably in WWI.
> > >
> > > >From: Ian Edwards 
> > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >Subject: Re: Disbandment Not Shame
> > > >Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 16:46:01 -0700
> > > >
> > > >With the possible exception of the Cdn Abn Regt: not true!!!
> > > >Consider all the units disbanded in 1920 and 1946.
> > > >
> > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > >   Disbandment also connotates shame suppositly.
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> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:17:12 -0700*
Yes, your memory is a little inaccurate. See my posting to Rhett for
example. In WW1 the Victoria Rifles, besides contributing to the 14th,
raised the 24th and 60th Battalions which fought in France and Flanders
as such. The Victoria Rifles also raised the 244th Battalion which was
broken up in England to provide reinforcements to other units. As I
mentioned, the Victoria Rifles carried on again from 1920 to 1965. In
WW2 the unit moblized a battalion that was stationed in Newfoundland as
part of the 7th Canadian Infantry Division and in 1944 made it to
England where it was broken up for reinforcements. Because its WW2
mobilized battalion had less "dramatic" service as others that fought in
NW Europe/Italy I suggest that the Victoria Rifles was disbanded in 1965
the troops were all gone by late 1964 rather than other units in
Montreal that had "better" records. Some units had to go, it was felt,
so disband the units with fewer vets.
John Hill wrote:
snip
 I believe that during
> WWI the Victoria Rifles accepted status as a replacement battalion which was
> broken up for replacements upon reaching the UK.  After the war they defered
> to the RMR for status as the Militia regiment for the Westmount area and the
> personnel.  remaining were absorbed into the RMR.  Please correct me if I am
> wrong here.
> 
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter Sharpe" <psharpe@freenet.co.uk>* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:29:23 -0000*
Please can anyone tell me if the Victoria Rifles of Canada served 
overseas 1939-45 ?
thanks
Pete

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Please can anyone tell me if the 
Victoria Rifles of
Canada served overseas 1939-45 ?
thanks
Pete
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:14:00 -0500*
>From "The Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army" prepared by the Army 
Historical Section, 1964:
Victoria Rifles of Canada
"Second World War, 1939-1945. Details of the Regiment were placed on 
active service on 1 Sep 1939 for local protection duty. The Regiment 
mobilized "The Victoria Rifles of Canada C.A.S.F." on 24 May 1940. This 
battalion served in Newfoundland from November 1940 to September 1941. 
It embarked for the United Kingdom on 20 Nov 1944 and was disbanded with 
effect from 21 Nov 1944. A 2nd Battalion served in the Reserve Army."
The Regiment has no Second World War Battle Honours.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Peter Sharpe
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 11:29 AM
  Subject: Victoria Rifles of Canada - did it serve Overseas 1939-45 ??
  Please can anyone tell me if the Victoria Rifles of Canada served 
overseas 1939-45 ?
  thanks
  Pete

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
From "The Regiments and Corps of the 
Canadian Army"
prepared by the Army Historical Section, 1964:
Victoria Rifles of Canada
"Second World War, 1939-1945. Details 
of the
Regiment were placed on active service on 1 Sep 1939 for local 
protection duty.
The Regiment mobilized "The Victoria Rifles of Canada C.A.S.F." on 24 
May 1940.
This battalion served in Newfoundland from November 1940 to September 
1941. It
embarked for the United Kingdom on 20 Nov 1944 and was disbanded with 
effect
from 21 Nov 1944. A 2nd Battalion served in the Reserve 
Army."
The Regiment has no Second World War 
Battle
Honours.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod. 
com
2001 Canadian Military History
Calendar
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Peter
  Sharpe 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 
11:29
  AM
  Subject: Victoria Rifles of 
Canada - did
  it serve Overseas 1939-45 ??

  Please can anyone tell me if the 
Victoria Rifles
  of Canada served overseas 1939-45 ?
  thanks
  Pete

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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Rhett Lawson <lawson@cclacbrome.qc.ca>* on *Sun, 03 Dec 2000 12:49:16 -0500*
--------------7FDB205861DC561BDD878621
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--------------A034897E6C86252FB29A971C
Hello Peter Sharpe
Straight from the book "Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army"
Victoria Rifles of Canada, Second World War, 1939-1945:
Details of the Regiment were placed on active service on 1 Sep 1939 for
local protective duty.  The Regiment mobilized "The Victoria Rifles of
Canada CASF" on 24 May 1940.  This battalion served in Newfoundland from
November 1940 to September 1941.  It embarked for the United Kingdom on
20 Nov 1944 and was disbanded with effect from 21 Nov 1944.  The second
battalion served in the Reserved Army.
Peter Sharpe wrote:
> Please can anyone tell me if the Victoria Rifles of Canada served
> overseas 1939-45 ?thanksPete
--------------A034897E6C86252FB29A971C
Hello Peter Sharpe
Straight from the book "Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army"
Victoria Rifles of Canada, Second World War, 1939-1945:
Details of the Regiment were placed on active service on 1 Sep 1939
for local protective duty. The Regiment mobilized "The Victoria Rifles
of Canada CASF" on 24 May 1940. This battalion served in Newfoundland
from November 1940 to September 1941. It embarked for the United
Kingdom on 20 Nov 1944 and was disbanded with effect from 21 Nov 1944.
The second battalion served in the Reserved Army.
Peter Sharpe wrote:
Please
can anyone tell me if the Victoria Rifles of Canada served overseas 1939-45
?thanksPete
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