# Ruck Advice



## DirtyDog (6 Oct 2009)

I've recently come to the conclusion after several exercises and talks with my CoC that I intend to not deploy with the CTS ruck and instead will use a jump ruck.

Although quite comfortable to wear my current setup isn't all that rugged, versatile or practical.  Saying that, I recently decided I'd buy a CP gear Gen III '64 complete setup.  I would really rather go with the modular pack as I like the added versatility and capability.  However, even after shopping around for decent prices on various modular add-on pouches, this ruck setup would come up to well over $500.  That is a_ substantial _ amount of money for something in the end that is simply a modualr jump ruck.  That's also getting dangerously close to Kifaru territory.

My question(s) is, should I go ahead and spend the money on a ruck ('64) that I know and am comfortable with but with some added features (like the GenIII improvements and being modular) or take that money and go for a well respected and well spoken of rig like a Kifaru, which is unknown and untested to me?  Or there is the third option which is to just get the regular GenIII ruck minus the modular capability.

Thanks for any advice.


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## DirtyDog (6 Oct 2009)

I should add that I'm a big fan of a lot of CP Gear's products and my concern here is that I'm spending over $500 on what is basically a '64 pattern ruck.  No concerns over the quality with the CP Gear products themselves.


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Oct 2009)

Maybe if you ask Matt Fisher/Mark Wheeler they might be able to cut you a deal (just throwing an idea out there)


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## HItorMiss (6 Oct 2009)

DD

Having used the Kifaru, I and the people I work with are not fans... However there are some good packs such as the Low Apline and the Arc'Teryx Echo which float in and around your price range you should look into them as well.

However in my mind your biggest concern should be delivery as day one of a 15 day patrol in the mountains is not the time to be getting to know your ruck. IF you can get the pack you like in a timely manner and can get some time with it in the field this would allow you to sort out how you like whichever pack you buy rigged.


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## DirtyDog (6 Oct 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Maybe if you ask Matt Fisher/Mark Wheeler they might be able to cut you a deal (just throwing an idea out there)


I didn't do anything special to deserve one and I'm already getting an $80 discount due to last month's photo contest.


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## DirtyDog (6 Oct 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> DD
> 
> Having used the Kifaru, I and the people I work with are not fans... However there are some good packs such as the Low Apline and the Arc'Teryx Echo which float in and around your price range you should look into them as well.
> 
> However in my mind your biggest concern should be delivery as day one of a 15 day patrol in the mountains is not the time to be getting to know your ruck. IF you can get the pack you like in a timely manner and can get some time with it in the field this would allow you to sort out how you like whichever pack you buy rigged.


Yeah, I heard, today in fact, that you and some of your buddies were actually fairly fond of the Lowe Alpine and I will look into it.  Getting it soon isn't a real concern.  Or rather, the sooner the better, but deployment is still some 6 months away.

I recently put my jerry rigged jump ruck through what i thought was a pretty good test and I was more then happy with the way it carried.  My first real big test with plates and nearly full kit and it performed great.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2009)

I'm in the same boat, I don't like the new rucksack to the point where I'm going to drop a few hundred on a lowe alpine one.


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## Fusaki (6 Oct 2009)

BM,

Have you had any exposure to those rucks on that market that are designed for use with body armour?  I'm specifically referring to Mystery Ranch's BVS and Kifaru's Armor Grip.

What are your thoughts on rucking in armour in general?

As well, this isn't the first time you've advised against Kifaru.  Can you be more specific about their failing points and say why the Low Alpine and Arc'teryx rucks are a better choice?

DD,

The jump ruck has been around for a long time and has demonstrated itself to be a better design then the 82 pattern and some would even say the new ruck.  But really, all that says is that the Jump Ruck performs better when compared to garbage.  I don't have any experience with rucks outside of the "big 3" you usually see in the CF, but if I were in your boots I'd be taking this opportunity to try out something new.  Just don't forget BM's point here:



> However in my mind your biggest concern should be delivery as day one of a 15 day patrol in the mountains is not the time to be getting to know your ruck. IF you can get the pack you like in a timely manner and can get some time with it in the field this would allow you to sort out how you like whichever pack you buy rigged.


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## DirtyDog (6 Oct 2009)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> The jump ruck has been around for a long time and has demonstrated itself to be a better design then the 82 pattern and some would even say the new ruck.  But really, all that says is that the Jump Ruck performs better when compared to garbage.  I don't have any experience with rucks outside of the "big 3" you usually see in the CF, but if I were in your boots I'd be taking this opportunity to try out something new.  Just don't forget BM's point here:


That's why I'm here.


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Oct 2009)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> I've recently come to the conclusion after several exercises and talks with my CoC that I intend to not deploy with the CTS ruck and instead will use a jump ruck.
> 
> Although quite comfortable to wear my current setup isn't all that rugged, versatile or practical.  Saying that, I recently decided I'd buy a CP gear Gen III '64 complete setup.  I would really rather go with the modular pack as I like the added versatility and capability.  However, even after shopping around for decent prices on various modular add-on pouches, this ruck setup would come up to well over $500.  That is a_ substantial _ amount of money for something in the end that is simply a modualr jump ruck.  That's also getting dangerously close to Kifaru territory.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the kind words.  Whilst Kifaru is a great manufacturer (I own an EMR and Scout from when I was in the Marines...both privately purchased), I'll just offer out that generally you get what you pay for.  Also, bear in mind that if you get a base model Kifaru, you'll likely want a few extras such as modular pockets, etc. so it isn't really fair to compare a base model pack with the other one (i.e. CPGear Gen III Modular 64) that you've added all the extras to (i.e. exterior pouches), as the price of the Kifaru will likely still be substantially higher.

Regarding BulletMagnet's comments on the Kifaru, I'm interested as well.


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## HItorMiss (8 Oct 2009)

I have nothing bad to say about Kifaru in terms of quality etc etc, They made a decent product for sure. However that being said both the Lowe and Arc'teryx are much more comfortable. One of the biggest draw backs to the Kifaru IMO is the lack of internal space they make up for this by using add on pouch systems. The problem there is that the narrow design of the pack I and those I have spoken too means it is wobbly on your back and this is without plates on. The exterior pouch's add to the unbalanced feel of the ruck in general. Also we have found that the under arm straps loosen with heavy weight. All of this was the factor which steered myself and others away from Kifaru and towards the other two packs mentioned.

I hope this helps, I would like to say that all this is of course just mine and others opinions and that does not mean that others have had a different view or experience no two persons are alike and so the fit and feel will always differ from individual to individual.


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## Matt_Fisher (8 Oct 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I have nothing bad to say about Kifaru in terms of quality etc etc, They made a decent product for sure. However that being said both the Lowe and Arc'teryx are much more comfortable. One of the biggest draw backs to the Kifaru IMO is the lack of internal space they make up for this by using add on pouch systems. The problem there is that the narrow design of the pack I and those I have spoken too means it is wobbly on your back and this is without plates on. The exterior pouch's add to the unbalanced feel of the ruck in general. Also we have found that the under arm straps loosen with heavy weight. All of this was the factor which steered myself and others away from Kifaru and towards the other two packs mentioned.
> 
> I hope this helps, I would like to say that all this is of course just mine and others opinions and that does not mean that others have had a different view or experience no two persons are alike and so the fit and feel will always differ from individual to individual.



...Interesting observations.  
Re: Internalspace, I've had no problems with the EMR, and must say that almost the opposite is true, in that because the thing iso massive, I've had a tendency to overload it.  Which Kifaru model were you using and comparing to which Arc'Teryx and Lowe rucks?
Re:  Comfort vs. other packs.  I was issued the Marine Corps' ILBE pack, which is a license built Arc'Teryx Tango pack, built by Propper.  I found my Kifaru to be more comfortable than the ILBE, as the Kifaru's hip belt tended to contour better to my body than the ILBE, but comfort is largely subjetive, and will vary from person to person.
Re:  Exterior pockets comigng loose.  This is probably the biggest problem I've got with Kifaru is their 'Dock & Lock' pouch attachment method.  Whilst easier to add or remove pockets than MOLLE/PALS woven attachments, the pouches do tend to become loose with the motion of the pack when you're using it.  Users of the CF Smallpack and Rucksack have mentioned this as well (check out PhilB's description of this problem in the New Rucksack thread).  Mystery Ranch has largely addressed this issue with the use of a new cam-locking side release buckle from Duraflex/National Molding, which CPGear will be offering in the near future as a retrofit replacement for the daisy chain buckles on the issued Smallpack and Utility Pouches, to stop the loosening and subsequent bouncing/swaying that occurs.

As BulletMagnet mentioned, you'll rarely get two users to have identical opinions, but if you can get some decent user feedback out of them, it helps making purchase decisions a bit less painful.


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## ballz (24 Apr 2010)

Since the 64 stuff is on sale at CP Gear I figure I might as well buy now since it seems inevitable.

To start, I realize I won't be using it on CAP this summer, and probably not on Phase III or IV, but I know I'm not going to use the 82 for the long haul and I can make use of the 64 pack between now and the time that (if all works out) I actually get out of the training system and into the real world. I have considered all this and am still leaning towards the buy anyway, so feel free to mention something I probably haven't considered, or explain to me why this is a stupid idea.

As some of you know, I've only done BMOQ, so I don't have any experience with any rucks besides the 82 and it was very limited experience with that (I've done one BFT...), so I have a few questions, one main one.

My biggest beef with the 82 is that there's no room in it... This might be because of all the extra's that we *had* to take because we were on BMOQ, but I figure that was probably because in the real world, that "extra crap" is going to get replaced with something (heavier) anyway. So I've been looking at the Gen III and it looks huge and very appealing, but I was wondering what most people thought of the 64 vs the 64 Gen III in the way of "the bigger it is, the more useless stuff you are going to pack."

Also, I've never used the 64 but it seems pretty apparent since it's been around since 1964 and people still love it, and still prefer it over the 82 and a lot of people seem to prefer it over the CTS ruck, that it is way better for distributing weight and pretty much everything else required of a ruck.

I have a 64 frame already so at the very worst I might just buy the yoke, yoke pad, hip pad, etc... come to think of it I don't even know what the whole set-up entails... Well... please add your thoughts, comments, questions, etc, I am all ears.


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## PPCLI Guy (24 Apr 2010)

I swear by my jury rigged system - 82 bag , yoke etc on a 64 frame with a large padded civ waist belt.


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## ballz (24 Apr 2010)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I swear by my jury rigged system - 82 bag , yoke etc on a 64 frame with a large padded civ waist belt.



That's encouraging, maybe I can just buy the 64 yoke and stuff and rig my 82 bag on the frame i already have... I think that would be allowed for CAP too...

Do you like the 82 because it's got less room in it? Have you ever had an issue with not being able to take everything you need? 

What stuff do you normally pack? I ask this because on BMOQ they made us take an extra pair of boots, 2 sets of combats, and sleeping stuff that wasn't necessary at all during the summer (outter sleeping bag, liner, air mattress, etc... I only used my inner and bivy bag (slept on top of my inner, inside the bivy bag).

I noticed you were in 3VP... was this in a light infantry role and did it make a difference to you (was the 82 bag adequate?)?


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## PPCLI Guy (24 Apr 2010)

My rucking days these days are...infrequent - every Sunday on a ruck run / march through the streets of DC with my two German Shepherds, and of course the BFT.

I adopted the system while in 3 VP, and it was sufficient onto the cause - for training.  

As to what to pack - that is a personal choice that is often restricted by your course instructors or your chain of command.  Not very helpful, I realize.  I have always tended to have a minimalist approach in order to allow for task specific and common loads.


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## phil_jones (26 Apr 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Since the 64 stuff is on sale at CP Gear I figure I might as well buy now since it seems inevitable.
> 
> To start, I realize I won't be using it on CAP this summer, and probably not on Phase III or IV, but I know I'm not going to use the 82 for the long haul and I can make use of the 64 pack between now and the time that (if all works out) I actually get out of the training system and into the real world. I have considered all this and am still leaning towards the buy anyway, so feel free to mention something I probably haven't considered, or explain to me why this is a stupid idea.



From what I have seen at the Inf Sch in the past 2-3 years, you will not need to worry about humping a ruck around, except for PT. In fact, during my Ph III we did 99% of our fighting patrols with FFO (as it should be), with only a few "long range" patrols to get us familiarized with the concept. 

Other courses will be another consideration, i.e. recce, adv winter warfare, mountain ops, CSOR, but you are not at that point yet. 

From talking to the young Lts, apparently they do not patrol as extensively on course as we used to. So your ruck will probably be sitting in the MLVW while you are contemplating the scenery on and around Day Hill.

This is not to say that the latest CF ruck is a good choice for real operations. I sent my jump ruck overseas in my UAB, and used my giant heavy clothe-the-soldier ruck for baggage on the airplane.

If you are really serious about buying new ruck, make sure you can rig it to carry your 522/117. Because an officer carries his radio.


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## ballz (26 Apr 2010)

phil_jones said:
			
		

> If you are really serious about buying new ruck, make sure you can rig it to carry your 522/117. Because an officer carries his radio.



Well that is something I hadn't considered, but with the A7A compression panel you would be able to do just that (it would enable you do put pouches, ie for a radio, on top of your valise on a jump ruck).

Do you mean to tell me all the rucking that I have been warned about for CAP are during the PT sessions? I thought it was all during the field ex's, and that PT while back at the base was primarily running and crossfit... thought the rucking was just part of the field ex.


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## George Wallace (26 Apr 2010)

If you are going with the 64 Pattern Ruck, try and find the metal Radio Tray that snaps onto it.  Everyone used to have one and 99 per cent of them were thrown away.  They did come in handy for mounting the radio securely, or carrying Jerry Cans.  

If you find more than one, drop me a line, as I am looking for one.   :nod:


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## phil_jones (26 Apr 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Well that is something I hadn't considered, but with the A7A compression panel you would be able to do just that (it would enable you do put pouches, ie for a radio, on top of your valise on a jump ruck).
> 
> Do you mean to tell me all the rucking that I have been warned about for CAP are during the PT sessions? I thought it was all during the field ex's, and that PT while back at the base was primarily running and crossfit... thought the rucking was just part of the field ex.



With the 64 ruck, you strap the radio to the high portion of the frame before you slam your valise on. That makes the radio somewhat more accessible if you have to, for example, transfer the radio to your guy in the ORV before you leave to recce the obj (especially when you are attempting to do this in the pitch black with your crap MNVG that won't focus correctly).

But yes, like I said, such an exchange will be very unlikely during a CAP or Phase III course. Normally when you patrol on course, it will be in fighting order (i.e. no rucks). But your daypack will still be overloaded with ammo, water, and the radio.

Anyway, my expert response is, "No, you will not patrol with a ruck often, if ever, on CAP/Ph III." Don't sweat it.


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