# Reserve B to C Pay P%#@-OFF



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

So I'm a Class B Reservist Lt Pilot and I'm outta the country on training so they stick me on Class C.
First Pay comes in and its less than what I was getting on Class B. Ever since I joined I was always told
"if you go class C you get Reg force pay and its always 15% more" I looked at the pay tables online and sure 
enough Reg force Lt Pilots make less than Res Lt Pilots. Probably an oversight because 99.99% of all Res Pilots 
are ex Reg and therefore at least Capt rank. This sucks, I'm deploying for many reasons but one of them isn't
to make less salary. Whats the deal with Advance promotions ---- anybody ??? I was a cadet WO for three years 
including 4 months as chief at a gliding school, I've heard that can actualy knock off a year for your Capt's. ?


Don't get me wrong I would've researched this and broght it up before leaving but i was called in from leave and given 
48 hrs to get my s@#t together.

Cheers


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Think you forgot about all the added deductions while on Class C PAY.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

I understand that, but the Reg Force pay tables themselves are less to begin with. Theres one Lt pay table that makes more but for a different entry plan


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> I understand that, but the Reg Force pay tables themselves are less to begin with.



So ?


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

So, i was told that they would always be 15 % more.


----------



## Shamrock (6 Sep 2008)

You've spent (x) amout of years in the CF without ever once comparing pay scales, instead relying on the Mysterious Organisation of Them?


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> So, i was told that they would always be 15 % more.



No. You heard someone tell you that without looking for yourself if it was true or not. Theres a difference there. Show me, in official documents, where it says that pay is always 15% higher for RegF.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

oyie, remember Reg Force pay scale is based on a MONTHLY SCALE where as Res Force is on a DAILY SCALE.


----------



## Shamrock (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> oyie, remember Reg Force pay scale is based on a MONTHLY SCALE where as Res Force is on a DAILY SCALE.



Does that mean that in January a reservist will make 14% less pay than I do, in February he'll make 16% less pay, and in April he'll make 15%?!

This clearly flies in the face of what They have been telling Us.


----------



## Loachman (6 Sep 2008)

"They" obviously spent as much time comparing pay scales as you did...

I am surprised that the difference that you describe exists.

About a decade ago, as part of the Pilot Get Well Programme, pay rates were adjusted to reduce the pay of Lieutenant Pilots in order to increase the pay of the more senior Captains. This was because we were paying inexperienced pilots much more than their commercial counterparts while grossly underpaying our experienced pilots by comparison.

It is possible that an error was made in the Res Lieutenant Pilot rate and it was not adjusted, I suppose. You might ask about this - but expect the Res Lieutenant pay rate to be adjusted down accordingly. Waiting until after promotion to bring that up might be wise.

Cadet time does not count towards anything.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Cadet time just counts for IPC increase not Rank increase for NCM's. Not sure how it works for Officers.

EDITED TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Sep 2008)

Sigh.  For Ptes, 2Lts and Lts the pay differential is less that 15% - it's intended as an incentive to retain people in their early years of service.  There are certain conditions where the calculation of IPC for class C service may result in a lower rate of pay (classic example is a CFR'd CWO; until a few years ago, they often found themselves in the same position).

However, if you had less than 5 days notice, loot at CBI 204.015(3) and request a review of your file - it may apply and move you to a higher IPC>  Not having all the nit-noid details, I can't give any better advice.


----------



## Loachman (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Cadet time just counts for IPC increase not Rank increase.



Not, unless things have changed, at the commissioned level.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

Thanks a bunch.

dapaterson


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

and I found this

From CFAO 49-12 -- PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -PRIMARY RESERVE 
 ANNEX A -- MINIMUM QUALIFYING TIME IN RANK FOR ENTRY TO PROMOTION ZONE FOR NEXT HIGHER RANK 

2.             Qualifying time for entry to the promotion zone for the next higher rank is reckoned from the date of seniority in the present rank, except that: 




cadets who have served a minimum of two years in the rank of warrant officer and above may be granted one year qualifying time in the rank of lieutenant for promotion to the rank of captain.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Does that mean that in January a reservist will make 14% less pay than I do, in February he'll make 16% less pay, and in April he'll make 15%?!
> 
> This clearly flies in the face of what They have been telling Us.



When you're on Cl B svc, you will find your 'end month' pay changes from month to month.  Feb obviously is the worst one.  Your mid-month pay is always (meaning usually  ) for 15 days and then the end of the month, well you just watch what month you're in and go from there.  I based my monthly budget on a 30-day month, and the months there are 31 days, I just had some 'extra' pay end-month.

But yes Cl A reservists get paid half day for 6 hours of less, full day for over 6 hours and on Class B you get your full day pay for each day of the month.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> cadets who have served a minimum of two years in the rank of warrant officer and above *may* be granted one year qualifying time in the rank of lieutenant for promotion to the rank of captain.




may.......may.........may........

not "shall"


----------



## 1feral1 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy, just be thankful you are getting paid to do what you love, A  - be  CF Mbr (FT Reservist at that), and B - to FLY!

Many can only dream of what you do.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy,

So....to clarify, you went on Class C service (which you volunteer for or atleast agree to) so you can train outside of Canada, you aren't making the same pay and want to approach your chain of command to get an early promo to Capt based on being a Cadet WO so that you can make more money??  You would have had to sign something for your Class C contract at which time you agreed to those terms within...

 :

I don't know your CoC but...

I know people (myself included) that trained outside of Canada and didn't go on Class C...thats a new one to me.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

I am thankfull, very much so. 

though sometimes 'Beware what you wish for' rings true.


yeah, i havent signed anything. they put me class C because I'm training for deployment, I think they were under the impression
that they were doing me a favour, maybe they were with benifits and stuff.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

If you have not signed anything, how can you be on class C service ?

If you are indeed on class C service, you had to have signed a class C contract.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Something smells here..... heck you have to sign for a Class B Contract


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

yeah, I'm FT class B. Whipped outta the country and they put the C together after I left.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> yeah, I'm FT class B. Whipped outta the country and they put the C together after I left.



You still have to sign it.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

yeah I'm gonna try and get ahold of my O.R. on monday.


----------



## Monsoon (6 Sep 2008)

The class C IPC given you in your employment message is based on your actual days served in rank, and not on years of class A service. You may have been a class A Lt for three years, but if you only served 134 days in those years, your class C IPC will be 0 with a 134 day incentive credit. This is likely why your class C pay is less than the class B equivalent (in addition to the extra deductions mentioned above).

I'm just surprised they're giving you class C for training employment.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> yeah I'm gonna try and get ahold of my O.R. on monday.



Point is that you still have to sign it. If you dont like the terms ( i.e. PAY) then dont sign it and go home.


----------



## blacktriangle (6 Sep 2008)

Seems sketchy, I didn't think that was possible. If something god forbid happens to you, do you have any proof that you are actually on Class C? From my limited experience, unless you have things documented...you are possibly in for a world of hurt. If they have indeed "switched" you over following your departure, could you not have something forwarded to your loc to confirm everything? 

EDITED to add- I guess you have the pay records with your new pay as proof, but I'd still check into it.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

And also RPSR doesn't talk to the Reg Force system so there would have been a period of time that you didn't get paid.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

well yeah, if I saw the contract [the pay] i certainly wouln't have signed it. I think i might be on its way to me.


As for years in rank, i've been an Lt for 10 months and all of it's been FT. but thats good to know about the B to C IPC


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> well yeah, if I saw the contract [the pay] i certainly wouln't have signed it.



So pack your bags and head home then. No harm no foul. I understand.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

no i like it here, pretty sure i can do what i'm doing on a B aswell.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> no i like it here, pretty sure i can do what i'm doing on a B aswell.



Well then, we're done here. No need to complain about your pay.


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

we're done here, realy. shame, I'd kinda like to read more of your useless responses


----------



## dimsum (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> So I'm a Class B Reservist Lt Pilot and I'm outta the country on training so they stick me on Class C.



Just a question...given the length of time you need for the pilot training system, don't pilots go from 2Lt directly to Capt?


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

typicaly yes. I joined under a skilled entry program. Been In 17 months, did the Helicopter sylabus [wings]in portage and Edmonton, griffon OTU, and lots of little courses 
i.e. aero med, SERE, Sea survival. My Boss tells me i was the fastest from date of enrollment to operational pilot he's ever seen [reg or res]. 

and of course BOTC


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Sep 2008)

So aren't you trained then?  C Class is normally used for reservists undertaking operations, such as deplying with a task force or the like.  It seems rather strange that you haven't signed your C Class paperwork, are you sure you're on C Class?

G2G


----------



## Huddy (6 Sep 2008)

yes I'm a MOC qualified pilot who's getting trained on Chinooks with the Americans so that I can deploy.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Sep 2008)

Then you need to confirm and sort out your C Class paperwork ASAP.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Sep 2008)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> The class C IPC given you in your employment message is based on your actual days served in rank, and not on years of class A service. You may have been a class A Lt for three years, but if you only served 134 days in those years, your class C IPC will be 0 with a 134 day incentive credit. This is likely why your class C pay is less than the class B equivalent (in addition to the extra deductions mentioned above).
> 
> I'm just surprised they're giving you class C for training employment.



If you are on pre-deployment training you will generally be put on class C (a long list of caveats goes here).  Depending on the circumstances, it is possible to administer certain periods of class C through RPSR vice CCPS, leading to no interruption of pay.

However, no one here has access to your pay guide or to the specifics of your situation, so you'll have to work this one through your OR.


(And one pedantic point: they're Class B or Class C periods of service, not contracts.  A key differentiation)


----------



## 1feral1 (6 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> well yeah, if I saw the contract [the pay] i certainly wouln't have signed it.
> As for years in rank, i've been an Lt for 10 months and all of it's been FT.



Great attitude Huddy!

10 months - wow!

Plenty more people out there who'll fill your boots should you leave. If you are strictly doing this for the $$, maybe you need a career change. As for deploying, that should all be on Cl C anyways. I have never heard of anyone deploying into war on a Cl B 'A' callout. 

Frowns,

OWDU


----------



## Huddy (7 Sep 2008)

let me clarify. 

and please read this with an chilled out voice in your head, i'm not going after anyone here.

I wouldn't have signed it because I probably could have come here on class B. this class C only takes 
me to end Nov [current course]. I just find it priceless [pardon the punn] that after being told by everyone
in my sqn including OR staff [I'd asked briefly about the pay rate seeing it could be from $4100-$4900] that 
this was the one and only way to make more, it turns out that it certainly isn't.  : I'm not trying to impress anyone saying 
I've been an Lt for 10 months, i was replying to a guy on here that it wasn't a B to C IPC difference. Do you honestly think though
that a guy should take a pay cut for going class C of all things ?

I'm not doing this for the money, I took a $30k a year pay cut to do this. It's just these little things that piss me off,
and it these little things that make life on a guy that much harder financialy. Yeah I get it "read the fine print".

Don't think that i go to work with a chip on my shoulder bud, I'm a high time experianced aviator, and I joined for one
thing, to deploy. Maybe some day I'll casevac your sorry butt, and you can tell me what I'm worth then


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Sep 2008)

> Don't think that i go to work with a chip on my shoulder bud, I'm a high time experianced aviator, and I joined for one
> thing, to deploy. Maybe some day I'll casevac your sorry butt, and you can tell me what I'm worth then



Dude- word to the wise- shut up while you are ahead.  You are not making friends amongst the BTDT crowd.  And you are making the Air Force look bad.  Really bad.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> Maybe some day I'll casevac your sorry butt,



Thankfully for me, i will never have the pleasure of seeing your sorry butt in one of my airplanes.


----------



## Huddy (7 Sep 2008)

I thought we were done here


----------



## Towards_the_gap (7 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> Maybe some day I'll casevac your sorry butt, and you can tell me what I'm worth then



That's a great attitude. Maybe someday I'll extract your 'sorry butt' from a minefield and you'll realise you're just a cog in the machine like the rest of us, 4 years cadets or not. Calm down on the 'I've got wings and therefore sit at the right hand of god!' 


Everyone knows that spot belongs to a combat engineer.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Sep 2008)

> Everyone knows that spot belongs to a combat engineer.



Yes, yes. But it is on the other side of the MH Tacco  

edit- fix quote box


----------



## Huddy (7 Sep 2008)

actualy i think that spot belongs to CDN Aviator. he's got a whopping 1700hrs in the back of a Aurora


----------



## Towards_the_gap (7 Sep 2008)

And you've got how much operational experience, at all? 

Seriously, watch the attitude. You are impressing no one.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> actualy i think that spot belongs to CDN Aviator. he's got a whopping 1700hrs in the back of a Aurora



and alot more operational experience than you........but eh, you da man buddy.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (7 Sep 2008)

Hey...are we flopping out logbooks now?  This is going to be great!  I love logbook time! 

Huddy...you are the new guy on Army.ca...you go first.  Tell us about yourself.


----------



## Huddy (7 Sep 2008)

please, i grew up in the Maritime community. And I've got bags more hours than you [5000], more if like you I were 
to count the hours where I just sat in the back. This aint about operational experiance its about something being unfair, 
it'll get sorted, i just love how ex-army guys like CDN Aviator think it normal to get scr#@ed.


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> please, i grew up in the Maritime community. And I've got bags more hours than you [5000], more if like you I were
> to count the hours where I just sat in the back. This aint about operational experiance its about something being unfair,
> it'll get sorted, i just love how ex-army guys like CDN Aviator think it normal to get scr#@ed.



Alright Tom Cruise,

I think this Top Gun Thread is done.

dileas

tess

army.ca staff


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> This aint about operational experiance its about something being unfair,
> it'll get sorted, i just love how ex-army guys like CDN Aviator think it normal to get scr#@ed.



Actually, "normal" for a junior officer is to get into the references, research the issue fully and document the problem to support a properly staffed memo to your chain of command seeking resolution.  Just like you would be expected to do to support any similar claim of "unfairness" from one of your subordinates.  The issue may actually be much bigger than your own pay problem, and your chain of command cannot pursue a solution without the facts being properly presented and prepared for forwarding under a cover letter.


----------



## Franko (8 Sep 2008)

Huddy said:
			
		

> Don't think that i go to work with a chip on my shoulder bud, I'm a high time experianced aviator, and I joined for one
> thing, to deploy. Maybe some day I'll casevac your sorry butt, and you can tell me what I'm worth then



Now let me tell you something there lips....

If I ever hear you say that nice one liner to one of my troops if he's wounded or worse in this AO......you'll be the one to get CASEVAC'd.

Drop the ego, this ain't a game.

Regards


----------

