# Switching "Wrong" Element Wait Time?



## SarahRad (4 Sep 2014)

So I went for my swearing in this morning and realized that on all of my paperwork it said I was joining the Army when I had applied for the Navy.  Everyone I had spoken to, from my phone call with the job offer to the Career Manager who made sure nothing about my situation had changed this morning said Navy, so seeing Army on the paper was like being blindsided.

This happened to another girl who was swearing in with my today, but she noticed earlier and got it straightened out in two weeks.  I'm waiting for mine to be straightened out as well and to see if there are any more spots open for Navy Clerks, so that I can be offered the job again, but the Career Manager made sure to say that they've had it take up to a month before.  If there aren't anymore Navy spots open this year, I'll have to wait back on the merit list until April and the new fiscal year comes around.

I _was_ set to leave for BMQ in 9 days, so I guess i'm just wondering if this has happened to many people before, and if so, how long did it take for it to be sorted out and for you to have an offer with the element you wanted??


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## George Wallace (4 Sep 2014)

SarahRad said:
			
		

> So I went for my swearing in this morning and realized that on all of my paperwork it said I was joining the Army when I had applied for the Navy.  Everyone I had spoken to, from my phone call with the job offer to the Career Manager who made sure nothing about my situation had changed this morning said Navy, so seeing Army on the paper was like being blindsided.
> 
> This happened to another girl who was swearing in with my today, but she noticed earlier and got it straightened out in two weeks.  I'm waiting for mine to be straightened out as well and to see if there are any more spots open for Navy Clerks, so that I can be offered the job again, but the Career Manager made sure to say that they've had it take up to a month before.  If there aren't anymore Navy spots open this year, I'll have to wait back on the merit list until April and the new fiscal year comes around.
> 
> I _was_ set to leave for BMQ in 9 days, so I guess i'm just wondering if this has happened to many people before, and if so, how long did it take for it to be sorted out and for you to have an offer with the element you wanted??



 :

Clerk is a Purple Trade.  It doesn't matter what uniform you wear, the job is the same.  If you want to give up the job, just because of the colour of the uniform, you should really shake your head and see if you can hear anything.


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## AmmoTech90 (4 Sep 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Clerk is a Purple Trade.  It doesn't matter what uniform you wear, the job is the same.  If you want to give up the job, just because of the colour of the uniform, you should really shake your head and see if you can hear anything.



George, this is incorrect.  Please stay in your lanes.

If you want to have a career as a Navy clerk then you have to wear a Navy uniform.  Within the Log Branch element is strongly considered in posting and succession planning.  If want to end up as a Cox'n rather than a RSM then don't go Army or Air Force and make sure you get your ticket punched as a CHOD rather than a CSM.  Same with the Army, don't expect to go from being a CHOD to 2 Svc RSM.
And before there are any comments about just getting through BMQ first and worrying about what someone wants to do as a CPO1, that as big a consideration as telling someone to join as a Combat Engineer when they want to be a Fire Fighter, after all they are all Engineers.


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## George Wallace (4 Sep 2014)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> George, this is incorrect.  Please stay in your lanes.
> 
> If you want to have a career as a Navy clerk then you have to wear a Navy uniform.  Within the Log Branch element is strongly considered in posting and succession planning.  If want to end up as a Cox'n rather than a RSM then don't go Army or Air Force and make sure you get your ticket punched as a CHOD rather than a CSM.  Same with the Army, don't expect to go from being a CHOD to 2 Svc RSM.
> And before there are any comments about just getting through BMQ first and worrying about what someone wants to do as a CPO1, that as big a consideration as telling someone to join as a Combat Engineer when they want to be a Fire Fighter, after all they are all Engineers.



Really now.  I call BS.

To the "Clerk":

You can turn down the offer if you want.  You can ask the CAFRC if they can change your Environment uniform.  You can accept the offer as is.  The choices are all yours.  

If you accept, you will do BMQ just like everyone else, no matter the Environment.  From there you will go to Borden to be trained along with all the Clerks, who will be wearing uniforms of all three Environments.  There you will have many lessons on military writing, administration, how to find information in the various Canadian Armed Forces publications, etc.  That training will give you a good insight as to how to write a memo requesting a change of Environment should you wish.  As a Clerk, no matter your Environmental uniform, you can be posted anywhere.

There are people on this site who have actually changed Environmental uniforms three times in their careers, without changing Trades.  They were/are in what we call "Purple Trades"; Trades that can work in any Environment.


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## DAA (4 Sep 2014)

SarahRad said:
			
		

> So I went for my swearing in this morning and realized that on all of my paperwork it said I was joining the Army  when I had applied for the Navy.  Everyone I had spoken to, from my phone call with the job offer to the Career Manager who made sure nothing about my situation had changed this morning said Navy, so seeing Army on the paper was like being blindsided.
> 
> This happened to another girl who was swearing in with my today, but she noticed earlier and got it straightened out in two weeks.  I'm waiting for mine to be straightened out as well and to see if there are any more spots open for Navy Clerks, so that I can be offered the job again, but the Career Manager made sure to say that they've had it take up to a month before.  If there aren't anymore Navy spots open this year, I'll have to wait back on the merit list until April and the new fiscal year comes around.
> 
> I _was_ set to leave for BMQ in 9 days, so I guess i'm just wondering if this has happened to many people before, and if so, how long did it take for it to be sorted out and for you to have an offer with the element you wanted??



Was there something that escaped your sight in the PM that I sent you back in early Jul where I specifically made mention and clearly said "Hope you like the ARMY."?



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really now.  I call BS.
> 
> To the "Clerk":
> 
> ...



You're right, you can either accept or refuse the offer.  But don't think a change in environmental assignment after enrolment is going to happen anytime soon, especially in the RMS Clk occupation.  On top of that, you can pretty much guarantee that your "first" posting in the RMS Clk occupation will be based on your environmental assignment.

Army units don't want RMS Clks who wear Air/Sea Uniforms, just like Navy units don't want Land/Air Clks, etc, etc, etc.  The job specs might be the same, but the way it get's done, is like night and day.


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## SarahRad (4 Sep 2014)

I understand it's a purple trade, but it's a purple trade I have my heart set on doing while wearing black. I want to serve on a ship. Seems a bit silly to accept an army offer if I want to be on a ship. 

Just like people say don't accept an offer of a trade if you're heart is set on another one, I'm not going to accept an element that I don't want. I've asked them if there are any Navy positions available, and my question here is really just if anyone has experience with this sort of thing. The other girl there today also experienced this with a 2-week wait, so I'm just looking for more data so I know what is reasonable to expect.


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## George Wallace (4 Sep 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Army units don't want RMS Clks who wear Air/Sea Uniforms, just like Navy units don't want Land/Air Clks, etc, etc, etc.  The job specs might be the same, but the way it get's done, is like night and day.



The majority of Clerks I ran into in the Combat Arms and other Army postings wore Air Force uniforms.   ;D

The majority of Medics I ran into early in my career, were Navy.   ;D

The colour of the uniform will not guarantee that you get posted to that Environment only.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Sep 2014)

If you're a purple trade, it won't matter what element you enroll into.

You could be Land and posted to an AF billet or AF posted to a ship. There are a lot of RCN purple trade people that have never been posted to either coast or seen a ship in their entire career. That's why they're called purple trades. Not green, light blue or black.

I don't know if they still do it, but there was a time, on graduating your three's that they put all the available postings on the blackboard then the top student got to pick first for the one they wanted to go to. Then down the line til the lowest student got whatever was left on the board.

If they still do it, top your class and take a posting to the RCN, if available, even if your green or light blue .


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## AmmoTech90 (4 Sep 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really now.  I call BS.
> 
> To the "Clerk":
> 
> ...



Please expand on your knowledge and experience in the Log Branch, it's postings and career planning policies.  If you were a clerk for a month 38 years ago it doesn't count

Would <crickets> be premature?

Recceguy, please, throw in your recent experience as well.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Sep 2014)

Tell me the part about being posted to any environment no matter your element is wrong? However, give us the proper explanation instead of leaving everyone hanging with, maybe, a wrong impression. Matter of fact, our Chief Clerk was a PO that's never had a sea billet in his entire career. Nor had my AF RQ ever been to an AF base except to fly out for taskings. Or any number of purple trade, professional, servicepersons I've had the pleasure to work with.

I've only been out a year, so I don't think what I witnessed is too far out of date.

If you're talking about my second point about selection, what part of "I don't know if they still do it, but there was a time," don't you understand? Or perhaps you were blinded with rage that someone other than LOG answered a question that you didn't see that part. 

Try to help out instead of being smug and condescending.

 :crickets: back at'cha 8)


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## SarahRad (4 Sep 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Was there something that escaped your sight in the PM that I sent you back in early Jul where I specifically made mention and clearly said "Hope you like the ARMY."?



I did see that and I thought it was strange, because I'd only specified Navy on my application. But I assumed you were using it as a colloquial synonym to "military" that a lot of people use. Obviously I'm kicking myself for not asking for clarification now.


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## Tibbson (4 Sep 2014)

This here army dude did a cruise on the VdQ a few years ago and there were two "army" clerks and even an "army" cook so I really dont see what difference a uniform makes other then style.  In fact I was at the CFSU(O) orderly room today and many of the clerks there are navy.

Seems to me your biggest choice is if you want to start your career now or some unknown time in the future.


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## AmmoTech90 (5 Sep 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Tell me the part about being posted to any environment no matter your element is wrong? However, give us the proper explanation instead of leaving everyone hanging with, maybe, a wrong impression. Matter of fact, our Chief Clerk was a PO that's never had a sea billet in his entire career. Nor had my AF RQ ever been to an AF base except to fly out for taskings. Or any number of purple trade, professional, servicepersons I've had the pleasure to work with.
> 
> I've only been out a year, so I don't think what I witnessed is too far out of date.
> 
> ...


And that PO will not get succession planned, their career will be limited.  Same with your AF RQ.
The chances of finding an AF RQ in an Army unit in the next five to ten years will be almost nil, as compared to 10 years ago when that it was rank/trade in a position.  Now it's rank/trade/element.  There will always be exceptions, especially when you get someone who has dead ended their career, either voluntarily or due to ability, and then you have to move them to positions where they can be effectively employed until release and that might mean out of element postings.  The same goes for people identified to progress, they'll be exposed to other elements.

Not blinded by rage or condescending, just correcting people don't know the full deal.  If a pilot chimed in with the correct information I wouldn't have said anything, but George provided incorrect information and then you did so I corrected both of you.  

I have no current information on how RMS postings are done off QL3 so I didn't comment on that, you could be correct for all I know.  That's why I didn't say anything.  My comment about postings was in regard to career progression positions not initial positions.  Chill out, why the yelling about Log?

Apologies if anyone's sensitive sensibilities were hurt <wait for self-righteous response to that in 3, 2, 1>...not being condescending, I've just been around here enough to be good in predicting responses.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Sep 2014)

Gentlemen, please!!


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2014)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Please expand on your knowledge and experience in the Log Branch, it's postings and career planning policies.



And as a 291'er, you are no more in the LOG Branch than I, so get down off your high horse.

Every Chief Clerk we have had in my last unit since 2005 has been Air Force; NOT Army.  

Almost every Clerk I have known has been Air Force, with the odd Navy one thrown in here and there.  The Clerk who screwed around my Movement Claim in Petawawa, far, far, away from salt water, was a PO.  

As has been stated several times, the colour of your uniform in a Purple Trade will not guarantee where you will be posted.


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## McG (5 Sep 2014)

Ammo Techs are Log branch.


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Sep 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> Ammo Techs are Log branch.



 :nod:


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Sep 2014)

So really, what you're saying is that only people that want to reach the top rung, need to be employed in element.

That would leave an awful lot of people to be employed outside their element wouldn't it?



> The chances of finding an AF RQ in an Army unit in the next five to ten years will be almost nil, as compared to 10 years ago when that it was rank/trade in a position.



...and you came by this info, how? There must be a directive that you can quote, or first hand info from someone who is placed highly enough and will be for the next ten years to make this work, or...or... I guess I'm looking for an official decision on this, instead of taking as gospel, because someone stated it or it was their WAG\ hope. :dunno:



> <wait for self-righteous response to that in 3, 2, 1>...not being condescending, I've just been around here enough to be good in predicting responses.



.......but not long or good enough to figure what smilies mean. You know what they say about 'assuming'.;D


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## Halifax Tar (5 Sep 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> Ammo Techs are Log branch.



:nod:  X 2 



> So really, what you're saying is that only people that want to reach the top rung, need to be employed in element.
> 
> That would leave an awful lot of people to be employed outside their element wouldn't it?



You are correct. 

Its the sad part about succession planning.  I know people who will probably top out at PO1/WO because they have yet to serve in their element up to that rank.  The other avenue of course, and I have seen the Navy do this many times,  is they tell a member who has lots of sea and Navy time to change uniform to Navy or they pretty well put a stopper on their career. 

Its funny the Log Branch is only purple for some people, others not so much. 



> ...and you came by this info, how? There must be a directive that you can quote, or first hand info from someone who is placed highly enough and will be for the next ten years to make this work, or...or... I guess I'm looking for an official decision on this, instead of taking as gospel, because someone stated it or it was their WAG\ hope



Its in the Log Branch home page buried in career progression NCM, help yourself.  Hes right.


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## DAA (5 Sep 2014)

SarahRad said:
			
		

> I did see that and I thought it was strange, because I'd only specified Navy on my application. But I assumed you were using it as a colloquial synonym to "military" that a lot of people use. Obviously I'm kicking myself for not asking for clarification now.



That's okay.  I'm sure the situation will somehow manage to work itself out much to your satisfaction.   

When it comes to postings, as an RMS Clk you are liable to serve in all three elements.  However, upon completion of your RMS Clk QL3 training, personnel will be posted according to their DEU, when possible.  Exceptions occur when there are significant vacancies in non-EC units.  Nevertheless, service requirements always come first.  The general career pattern/trend for RMS Clks is normally your first two postings within your DEU, then to either another element or non-EC unit, then it's a coin toss depending on your rank level at that time.  But once you reach the rank of WO, they tend to send you back to your DEU environment.  This has been my experience and also what I have discussed with the CM's.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

DEU change in the Log branch have been requested and approved.  It is not guaranteed to happen if requested, but it has - buddy of mine's wife is a Cook, enrolled in the Nav DEU and after her QL5, requested a change to AF.  She is now a Cpl with a blue lid.  IIRC there are time requirements to be met before you can request DEU change after you are enrolled.  Can't recall the #s, 36 or 48 months or something.

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but don't purple trades have an "allotment" of sorts; i.e. if Widget Tech is a purple trade with a total of 1000 Pte/Cpls in the trade, 300 are Army DEU, 300 are Air Force DEU and 400 Navy DEU?

Maybe the OP was offered Army DEU because the Navy DEU slots were full?


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## DAA (5 Sep 2014)

It can be done and has been done.  Prior to completion of occupation training, the deciding authority is CFRG in consulation with the respective Branch MA.  After occupation training, the auth is the respective Branch.  General rule of thumb is "must have completed Basic Training must have served five years beyond the successful completion of MOC training".

See CANFORGEN 029/02 for details.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

Holy &(@#@, I am a bit of a Rolodex memory type...but recalling a 2002 CANFORGEN??   

 ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (5 Sep 2014)

Are there still different PLQ's by element within the purple trades?  For example a. AF supply tech vs navy supply tech.


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## DAA (5 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Holy &(@#@, I am a bit of a Rolodex memory type...but recalling a 2002 CANFORGEN??
> 
> ;D



I have seen quite a few of these requests over the years.  You get pretty tired of seeing the reason for submission as "I identify more with the XXX element."     :facepalm:

Most requests are to facilitate future co-location postings with a svc spouse.  Nothing like having a spouse who is Inf (hard Land) and the other party is Sea.  Ouch!

At one time, you attended PLQ based on the environment of your current unit but today, I do believe it is now based on your environmental assignment.  So someone in a purple trade who is assigned the Land environment, is going to do the Land PLQ.  Same for Air and Sea.


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## AmmoTech90 (5 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but don't purple trades have an "allotment" of sorts; i.e. if Widget Tech is a purple trade with a total of 1000 Pte/Cpls in the trade, 300 are Army DEU, 300 are Air Force DEU and 400 Navy DEU?



Last AMOR put RMS intake at 25% RCN, 50% CA, 25% RCAF DEU allocation.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

Tks, I thought there was a breakdown, IIRC I saw something about it when ImagenTech switched from Air Ops to PA and when Met Teh switched to the Int cap badge.  X amount of people had to give up the AF deu in each trade.


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## Treemoss (12 Sep 2014)

Putting my 2 cents in.


Had my interview the other day, recruiter asked me which element I signed up for, I said Army. He said my file said Navy and was pondering why I wanted army as the only difference for med techs is the uniform. I explained to him I'd prefer it, and he jumped on the computer, and changed it within 30 seconds. Done.


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