# New Helicopters: Griffon/ Griffon Varient?



## CADPAT SOLDIER

I go to flight college in Ontario,
Someone told me today that the government has recently agreed to buy new helicopters of the Griffon variety, 
He told me that his cousin was in acquisitions and the deal hadn't been made public yet. 
This deal would surprise the hell out of me and the whole story kinda set off my BS alarm because what would be the point of a helicopter that cannot operate in our current area of operations. Plus there most be a better design of helicopter since we bought the griffons, plus i mean something would have probably been said on this site that I would have seen.
I'm not trying to start another discussion about the Griffons. I just wanna know if anyone heard anything about new helicopters.

PS thanks to the cf-18 pilot who did the burner takeoff for those of us in the tower today, that was neat.


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

ps: I know about the proposed griffon refit to take care of the Chinooks, he ment real life brand new aircraft from the factory with new plane smell still about them.


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## geo

rumors, rumors and more rumors.
We own CH146 Griffons.
We own EH 101s for SAR
We own Sea King helicopters for SAR
We have ordered some Sikorsky S92s for the Frigates
We have placed orders for Chinooks - though the AF now want to make changes - to make em more pertinent to what they want to do with them (hope that ties in with what the Army wants to do with them)

If we posess Chinooks, a gun ship of sorts (eg:AH-1W super cobra) might be advisable.....

Other than that..... don't think we have anything else that has been released to the public.


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## Strike

Future Unknown said:
			
		

> I go to flight college in Ontario,
> Someone told me today that the government has recently agreed to buy new helicopters of the Griffon variety,
> He told me that his cousin was in acquisitions and the deal hadn't been made public yet.
> This deal would surprise the hell out of me and the whole story kinda set off my BS alarm because *what would be the point of a helicopter that cannot operate in our current area of operations.* Plus there most be a better design of helicopter since we bought the griffons, plus i mean something would have probably been said on this site that I would have seen.
> *I'm not trying to start another discussion about the Griffons.* I just wanna know if anyone heard anything about new helicopters.
> 
> PS thanks to the cf-18 pilot who did the burner takeoff for those of us in the tower today, that was neat.



With a remark like that, you may end up getting just that.  PLEASE read other posts about the Grif before saying stuff like that.

As to the chances of getting more Grifs, the closest thing is the refit of the ones being used for training in Portage.  And that's OLD news.


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## Inch

geo said:
			
		

> rumors, rumors and more rumors.
> We own CH146 Griffons.
> We own EH 101s for SAR
> We own Sea King helicopters for SAR
> We have ordered some Sikorsky S92s for the Frigates
> We have placed orders for Chinooks - though the AF now want to make changes - to make em more pertinent to what they want to do with them (hope that ties in with what the Army wants to do with them)
> 
> If we posess Chinooks, a gun ship of sorts (eg:AH-1W super cobra) might be advisable.....
> 
> Other than that..... don't think we have anything else that has been released to the public.



Sea Kings are not used for SAR primarily, trust me. We do secondary SAR when the Cormorants are down, but our primary role is support to the navy which the H92's will take over when they come online in 2 years.


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

ok, I'll try to stay in my lane.... anyone wanna talk about cessna's lol?  

so is the definitive answer no?


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## geo

Ok inch... only intended to point out the range of what we had and what we we have on order.  Speculating on acquiring more utility helicopters didn't make much sense.


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## h3tacco

Just another note we have not purchased CH-47's. We have signed an advanced contract award notice, which essentially means we have indicated to boeing that they are the only supplier who can meet our requirements. We are currently in negotiations with boeing. When we officially sign a contract it will be made public. This is the same situation as the C-130J/Lockheed Martin.


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## childs56

Who knows. You may be right about the purchasing of new 412's. From my understanding what numbers  we have already are stretched out doing the mission it does now. Adding a few specific airframes to the fleet may not be a unplasuable thing. 

Remember just cause the guys on here are in the military, former military does not make them the expert. They are passed on alot of info via their Chain of Command, but not all the info. 
If you happen to know a person who works for the Company who is responsible for the bidding of such aircraft or other equipment then you may know sooner then the general military does. 
This isnt a slight agaisnt any of you, but this may mean a new step in the equipment purchase. 

If you hear anything else about this subject keep us posted. This may turn out like the Were going to buy Chinooks, (told by the expierance in the know people no way in heck that would happen) 3 years later the deal is going through.


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## Loachman

Right. We're clueless.

We currently have more airframes than people to fly them and maintain them.

The "stretched out" bit is a people problem, not an airframe one.

There is no need to add airframes that we can neither fly nor maintain.

There is no need to buy more of something that is inadequate for its job.

Due to the lack of people, there will have to be a reduction in the CH146 fleet in order to fly and maintain Chinook when it appears.


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

how come its alright when loachman says it but not me?  ;D 



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> There is no need to buy more of something that is inadequate for its job.


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## Loachman

There could be some interesting answers to that.

I hope that you get off lightly.

What college? Seneca?


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

I was just kidding around, Confederation. 
Its a good program, I'm liking it.


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## Loachman

Where is that?


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## Sparkplugs

It's in Thunder Bay, Loachman...  ask him about Cessnas, hehe, I spent a few years in Thunder Bay.

As far as the Griffons not being suitable for overseas flying, that's no one's fault but our own.  We put so much stuff in them that they're now just too heavy to fly in the heat.

However, the Bell 412, which is what the Griffon is before we load it up, is more than capable of flying overseas, and does so constantly.  I know personally 2 civvie pilots who spent a couple of summers in Abu Dhabi and Afghanistan flying 412s in all kinds of weather, and never had any problems with them.  But add in all the radar, tons of avs stuff, armour, and you've overloaded it for its purpose.  That's why ours aren't over there.  It's not the 412, it's that we bought a machine too small to handle all the add-ons we needed for it.


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## Loachman

Abu Dhabi's elevation is 88 feet.

What were these guys lifting, and for how long were they flying on one fuel load? Were they operating into and out of large, flat surfaces with no obstructions? Were they able to conduct leisurely take-offs and landings, or did they have to arrive and depart hurriedly due to the threat of being shot at?

There are considerable differences between military and civilian flying.

What radar do you think that we have? There's a radar altimeter and Doppler, and they're not that heavy. There is no "tons of avs stuff". We have three radios, one GPS, a cheapy three-axis autopilot, and standard navaids. No unusual weight there.

Yes, it's our fault - we bought a helicopter completely unsuitable for the role.

The role includes flying eight troops with combat equipment. Not too much to ask. It's underpowered for that for the conditions found in this country, even without armour kits.

It's also not particularly robust or reliable. When I left yesterday, we didn't have a single one serviceable.


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## dapaterson

Loachman:

The Griffon was selected because it met all the key operational characteristics required:

(1) Built in Quebec.


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## Loachman

It was built in Marcel Masse's home riding - one of the last PC defence ministers.

The Twin Hueys were showing their age and did in fact need replacement.

It looked like a Twin Huey.

Commonly heard buzzphrases when the contract was announced: "It's an off-the-shelf purchase - it will work", and "We don't need to do a user trial".


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## CADPAT SOLDIER

There was a sea king flying out Thunder Bay today? any word on why that was there?


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## Loachman

Luck?

Sorry, Sea King Guys...


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## Inch

Future Unknown said:
			
		

> There was a sea king flying out Thunder Bay today? any word on why that was there?



It's on an East to West aircraft rotation. All 3rd line maintenance is done in Halifax so when they're done with them, they're trucked out here for periodic inspection and then flown back. Flying it back takes less time than stripping it down for transport, driving across the country and then putting it all back together to fly again.


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## newfin

Loachman said:
			
		

> Luck?
> 
> Sorry, Sea King Guys...



LMAO!!

You are going to take heat for that one.  But I did get a chuckle.


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## aesop081

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> But add in all the radar



Radar ? On  a 146 ?

Methinks not !!!


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## Loachman

newfin said:
			
		

> LMAO!!
> 
> You are going to take heat for that one.  But I did get a chuckle.



Actually (but don't tell any of them that I said so) I have considerable respect for the Sea King community.

Not for what they fly, but for some of the stuff that they do with it, and some of the conditions in which they do it.


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## Inch

Loachman said:
			
		

> Actually (but don't tell any of them that I said so) I have considerable respect for the Sea King community.
> 
> Not for what they fly, but for some of the stuff that they do with it, and some of the conditions in which they do it.



Hovering is a whole new ball game when the landing pad is pitching 4 degrees and rolling 20 degrees!  ;D


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## Loachman

Inch said:
			
		

> Hovering is a whole new ball game when the landing pad is pitching 4 degrees and rolling 20 degrees!  ;D



That's part of the "stuff".

My only experience with that was helping DCIEM/DRDC Toronto developing a simulator for deck landings. Granted, we had no peripheral vision and that horizon bar thingy on top of the hangar didn't move, but still - no thank you.


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## Inch

Well you're going to be happy you're not on the Montreal. I'm not sure when they're doing it, but they'll be sailing shortly and actively looking for sea state to test the limits of the new RAST system for the Cyclone.


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## Good2Golf

Inch said:
			
		

> It's on an East to West aircraft rotation. All 3rd line maintenance is done in Halifax so when they're done with them, they're trucked out here for periodic inspection and then flown back. Flying it back takes less time than stripping it down for transport, driving across the country and then putting it all back together to fly again.



N45 57.9  W077 19.2


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## hippie

Inch said:
			
		

> Well you're going to be happy you're not on the Montreal. I'm not sure when they're doing it, but they'll be sailing shortly and actively looking for sea state to test the limits of the new RAST system for the Cyclone.



Inch, Is that bad oscar installed in the Montreal now?  I remember seeing that it was going to be the first ship to have it put in.


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## h3tacco

Bad Oscar?? The Montreal is the official Cyclone trial ship. I believe right now they have the new trap installed or they should shortly but there are still some engineer changes to be completed. The Montreal is scheduled to sail in the new year (winter/spring) with the DLTV (Dead Load Test Vehicle) to work out all the limitations and procedures for traversing, straighting, etc. basically the non-flying portion of SHOPs.


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## geo

Dead load test vehicle?
H3T... is that something like sailing with a big honking rock on the flight deck?
To test the ship's stability?


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## h3tacco

The DLTV is basically a big metal structure with the landing gear arrangement, weight, and size of the CH148. It will be used to verify some of the ship-helo issues prior to actually embarking the Cyclone. But yeah it is pretty much a big honking rock on the back of the ship.


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## geo

«Ahhh... a rock on wheels... I can relate to that


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## Armageddon

Now the fun part about all that is not only are they sailing around with the DLTV bu they also get to have the "fun" of doing it when they are looking to sail into any of the arger storms that they can find.  I definately do not envy that tasking.


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## geo

Winter in the North Atlantic?
Finding angry storms shouldn't be trouble at all..... 

Safe Harbour!


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## Kirkhill

If "they" are seriously considering revamping the Griffon (see all previous discussions about engines, transmissions and assorted locknuts) is there any value/need/possibility in for or of those weird looking BERP paddles at the end of the EH-101 rotors?  I believe they are also used on the Super Lynx.

Transferred from Loachman's thread on INGRESS


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## Sf2

no


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## Kirkhill

Thanx


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## Sf2

lol,
no problem....

Its not like changing tires.  Changing to different blades would require an entire drivetrain overhaul - as they (BERPs) probably operate at a different efficient rotor RPM.  So now you'd have to change the combining gearbox and transmission to ensure the blades spin at the proper rpm - and they'd also produce different levels of torque at different power settings, so you'd need to change the tail rotor system as well.

By that time, you might as well switch to a Y model anyway.


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## Kirkhill

Thanx again.  ;D

I take your point.  Its just that I have noted in the past a tendency to duck under procurement bars by using a strategy I've come to think of as "My Grandfather's Axe".  Others here have heard this before but just for clarity....My Grandfather bought an ax.  My Father replaced the handle. I replaced the head.  But it is still "My Grandfather's Axe".  The Military/Governmental/Commercial equivalent is replacing everything except the serial number.  The department then buys an upgrade from "operations and maintenance" as opposed to new kit from "capital" and doesn't upset the shareholders.

In this talk about "upgrading" the Griffon or its capabilities there has been previous discussion about replacing the drive-train and/or the power pack to something like the Y, if not the Y.  It was just as I saw Loachman's post this morning about I-BRUH-INGRESS (sounds like a beer ad) that I started wondering about what other "wonder" technologies could be piggy-backed to improve performance and got to wondering about those BERPs and whether they would make any difference at all.

Cheers


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