# Flags at half mast outside CFB Gagetown.



## Bzzliteyr (6 Dec 2005)

On my way out for lunch I noticed the main flag at half mast, anyone know why?

As I type this I remember it is the anniversary of the Ecole Polytechnique, hence the half masting.

My ignorance, sorry.


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Dec 2005)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> On my way out for lunch I noticed the main flag at half mast, anyone know why?
> 
> As I type this I remember it is the anniversary of the Ecole Polytechnique, hence the half masting.
> 
> My ignorance, sorry.



Correct expression is half-staff; masts are used by the Navy.

Ours were at half staff on Saturday; I still don't know why.  Pte Woodfield maybe?


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## winchable (6 Dec 2005)

Anniversary of the Halifax Explosion is also today.


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## Bzzliteyr (6 Dec 2005)

Funny thing is I was going to write half-staff, as it has come up in discussion here before.. two brainfarts in one!! Yay me!


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## PteCamp (6 Dec 2005)

It is also the anniversary of the Montreal Massacre... that could be another reason.


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## Phillman (6 Dec 2005)

CplKec said:
			
		

> It is also the anniversary of the Montreal Massacre... that could be another reason.


Not trying to be too much of a jerk here, but the Ecole Polytechnique is the Montreal Massacre.


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## HADES 1962 (6 Dec 2005)

CplKec said:
			
		

> It is also the anniversary of the Montreal Massacre... that could be another reason.



Yes and this would be the directive we recieved today,


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## PteCamp (6 Dec 2005)

Sorry I read the post this morning, didn't realize it was edited before I posted.. My apologies.


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## Black Watch (6 Dec 2005)

December 6, 1989. A Student of L'école polytechnique de Montréal opens fire on feamale students.


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## greydak (7 Dec 2005)

How many died in Montrea for it to be a massacre? It must have be lots, but i never heard of it?


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## TCBF (7 Dec 2005)

So Ghamil Gharbi (Marc Lepine's name before he changed it so he could 'fit in') wins again.  How long must men in this country pay for his crime?  Two billion dollars and no end in sight.

In memory to the 2000 dead and 7000 wounded of the Halifax Explosion - may you all rest in peace.

Tom


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## thorbahn (7 Dec 2005)

I believe 14 women were killed at L'ecole polytechnique.


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## hugh19 (7 Dec 2005)

There where men killed at the school as well. I believe three.


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Dec 2005)

sledge said:
			
		

> There where men killed at the school as well. I believe three.



Four men were injured but not killed.


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## Black Watch (7 Dec 2005)

6 peopole injured, 15 deaths (the shooter killed himself)


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## mover1 (8 Dec 2005)

http://www.trentu.ca/arthur/archive/34/34-12/letters01.html

Read this....its another side of a complex story


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> http://www.trentu.ca/arthur/archive/34/34-12/letters01.html
> 
> Read this....its another side of a complex story



_There is no doubt that the anniversary of the Montreal massacre should be commemorated, and while I appreciate the articles on increasing awareness of gender equality and feminist issues, I think we need to explore other motives behind the slayings. Sometimes we get far too caught up in the labeling of people -sexist, racist, homophobe- that we fail to examine the reasons behind why people turn into these hate and anger driven individuals. Arthur failed to provide articles which addressed Marc Lapine as a victim just as any of the fourteen women he killed. The hatred of women was not the root cause of the murders. Perhaps it was witnessing his father bash his mothers' head off the brick wall of their suburban bungalow, or maybe it was the repeated beatings his father meted out on Lapine and his sister that caused it. Or could we possibly conceive that it was being locked in a room while daddy, dressed in his Sunday best (starched collar and cufflinks) sat for morning brunch free of his irritating children. Lapine's aunt stated in an interview that the children were never seen without the look of fear in their eyes. These experiences, left to fester, transformed Lapine into an unemotional and detached individual, so vulnerable that he latched on to women hating as a vehicle to vent all his pain.

I am not trying to excuse Lapine's behaviour or to suggest that he is somehow less guilty because of his disturbing childhood. What I am saying, at the risk of becoming redundant, is that by labeling people we tend to dismiss them as irrelevant and we sweep away the need to examine the fundamental problems of society, which perhaps is simply a lack of genuine human interaction. Yes, Lapine hated women and that is unfortunate, but all the lectures on the evils of misogyny and the oppression caused by gender roles would not have altered Lapine's state of mind. Intensive therapy dealing with the abuse itself would have had more of an impact. So instead of writing someone off as racist, homophobe, or sexist, ask what has led this person to these beliefs. Showing compassion and sincerity would be far more effective in preventing all the potential Lapines in the world from blowing people to bits in a final desperate attempt to be heard and express their pain.

Jenn Lynch_

I hope this goes without saying.  I think there are a lot of guys who at some point might have known what was inside Lepine's head even if just briefly.  The answer is not violence, and there is no justification for what he did.  Sadly, had Lepine been able to get a date, or keep a steady job he enjoyed, all the other stuff he ranted about would have likely shrank to insignificance in his mind.  

How do you legislate against loneliness and despair? You can't.  I think it speaks to the idea that no matter what laws you enact, there will never be some utopia where everyone is happy and feeling well-done-by.  Lepine had issues that magnified over the years; he wasn't mentally ill, he was a product of his cumulative life experiences.  Everybody's life sucks a little bit.  I think it's a reason why we can't ever expect society to completely disarm itself.  Some people are just going to snap.


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## hockeysgal (11 Dec 2005)

I was quite surprised to see the some companies with their flags at half-staff to commemorate the Montreal massacre.  Now normally I wouldn't be surprise as it is something to be remembered, and I certainly don't mean to downplay the significance of the event.  But I mean yes 15 people were killed that day in Montreal, but how many people were killed in the war?  Several thousand more!  And yet I was quite disappointed to see no flags at half-staff on Nov 11th 2005, or at least between my house and my unit (which is 40 km of highway going through the west island for those who know Montreal).

Don't get me wrong I think it is important to remember events like the Montreal massacre and all other tragedies of the sort.  I simply felt disappointed, but mostly insulted that these companies who put their flags at half-staff for the Montreal massacre did not feel compelled to do so on Nov 11.

Apologies if this brings the thread a bit off topic.  I simply felt it was an important point to cover.


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## TCBF (11 Dec 2005)

What means more politically in Canada? 14 dead in Montreal on 6 Dec 19__, or 2000 dead and 7000 wounded in Halifax on 6 Dec 1917?

But if you REALLY want to be ignored, how about the guy who was wounded by Ghamil Gharbi (Marc Lepine).  He isn't even a statistic!

Tom


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## eliminator (13 Dec 2005)

NATIONAL DAY OF REMEMBRANCE AND ACTION ON VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN 

December 6, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you know that December 6 is the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women in Canada? Established in 1991 by the Parliament of Canada, this day coincides with the sad anniversary of the death of fourteen young women who were tragically killed on December 6, 1989 at l'École Polytechnique de Montréal because of their gender.

Beyond commemorating the loss of these fourteen young lives, this day represents a time to pause and reflect on the phenomenon of violence against women in our society. It is also a time to have a special thought for all the women and girls who live daily with the threat of violence or who have died as a result of deliberate acts of gender-based violence. Last but not least, it is a day for communities to reflect on concrete actions that each Canadian can take to prevent and eliminate all forms of violence against women and girls.

Flags were half mast and half staff (we have both) here at RMC.


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## Glorified Ape (14 Dec 2005)

Commemorate all you want but the whole "awareness of violence against women" thing is getting old... really old. All of a sudden, if something happens to a woman it's of more concern. Well, sorry, but not to me and not to anyone that considers themselves an egalitarian. Violence is violence, I couldn't care less whether the victim has a penis (which is usually the case) or not.


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## Ralph (14 Dec 2005)

Gosh, it's a shame Lepine didn't consider himself an egalitarian as well... :


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## Glorified Ape (15 Dec 2005)

Ralph said:
			
		

> Gosh, it's a shame Lepine didn't consider himself an egalitarian as well... :



Indeed, then he may not have committed his crimes.


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## JSR OP (19 Dec 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Correct expression is half-staff; masts are used by the Navy.
> 
> Ours were at half staff on Saturday; I still don't know why.   Pte Woodfield maybe?



You are mistaken Mr Dorosh.  The correct term is not "Half Staff" as you say. Half Staff is a US Term, and Half Mast is a Commonwealth term.  In fact, the Canadian government website on The National Flag of Canada uses the term "Half-mast"

Check this site out from the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/flagflap.html


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Dec 2005)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> You are mistaken Mr Dorosh.   The correct term is not "Half Staff" as you say. Half Staff is a US Term, and Half Mast is a Commonwealth term.   In fact, the Canadian government website on The National Flag of Canada uses the term "Half-mast"
> 
> Check this site out from the CBC:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/flagflap.html



The Canadian Press has been adopted American spelling and syntax as a matter of policy for over a decade now - notice the lack of words like "colour", "honour", "valour" in favour of the US spelling - colour, valor, honor.  It surprises me not that they would insist that we likewise adopt US terms for flag etiquette...


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Dec 2005)

> Half-mast was chosen by the CBC years ago. It is also the official wording used by Parliament. (The White House prefers color and half-staff.)
> 
> The selection of half-mast isn't so much a matter of being right. It's more a case of style â â€œ staying consistent, and Canadian.



...nor does it surprise me that the CBC would ignore what represents decades of Army tradition (nor should it surprise anyone that Mr. Trudeau would do so either) and decide that it and it alone should dictate how Canadians think.

I suggest we call it half-freedom-stick and do away with any connotation of those nasty Americans once and for all.


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Dec 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The Canadian Press has been adopted American spelling and syntax as a matter of policy for over a decade now - notice the lack of words like "colour", "honour", "valour" in favour of the US spelling - *colour*,  valor, honor.   It surprises me not that they would insist that we likewise adopt US terms for flag etiquette...



Whoops - i don't have the ability to edit while on VW, so pardon the instinct to spell it correctly - apologies for any confusion.

In all seriousness, an interesting link, thanks.  I'm not convinced, though - the Canadian Press and CBC should not be viewed as the arbiters of what good tradition in the military should be, nor should *shudder* The Right Honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau...


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## RCA (19 Dec 2005)

It is half mast as per A-AD-200/000 (old CFP 200) Honours, Heritage manual which I don't have in front of me for the specific reference.


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## RCA (19 Dec 2005)

A-AD-200-000/AG-000 (old CFP 200) The Honours Flags,  and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces - Chapter 4. Section 2

  All flags at Federal buildings (of which the CF is a part) are to be at half mast from sunrise to sunset on Dec 6 for the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women

http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/berne-halfmasting/index_e.cfm is the link for when flags are to be flown at half-mast in Canada.


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## AmmoTech90 (20 Dec 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The Canadian Press has been adopted American spelling and syntax as a matter of policy for over a decade now - notice the lack of words like "colour", "honour", "valour" in favour of the US spelling - colour, valor, honor.  It surprises me not that they would insist that we likewise adopt US terms for flag etiquette...



Actually when it was first pointed out in this thread that the expression was half-staff not half-mast that struck me as being incorrect.  So the next day at work I looked in the British Army equivalent of Drill and Ceremonial and there is no reference in there of half-staff, just half mast.

I highly doubt the British Army has adopted that single expression from the Americans, so I come down on the side of half mast.  No one is insisting we adopt anything, instead, theya are, surprisingly, using the correct term.

D


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