# Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF



## FSTO (28 Apr 2022)

*FROM THE CAF INFO MACHINE

Majority of Canadians have no interest in joining the military, DND poll shows*

Not interested - RCAF 58%, CA 57%, RCN 61%
Not likely interested - RCAF 21%, CA 22%, RCN 22%

Poll done in Jan and Feb - 3,075 polled 

My edit - The sexual scandals have really hurt, but our advertising attempts are shyte as well.


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## Good2Golf (28 Apr 2022)

Fortunately, the way math works, we don’t need a majority of Canadians joining the CAF.  We only need about 0.0158% a year…


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## Quirky (28 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> Not interested - RCAF 58%, CA 57%, RCN 61%
> 
> Poll done in Jan and Feb - 3,075 polled



So we still have 42%, 43% and 39% who ARE interested. Those are good numbers. 

Now do police, firefighters, airline pilots and truck drivers as a comparison.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> *FROM THE CAF INFO MACHINE
> 
> Majority of Canadians have no interest in joining the military, DND poll shows*
> 
> ...



All these people are actually _aware _of the CAF... at all? 

I'd call that a victory


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## Kirkhill (28 Apr 2022)

Quirky said:


> So we still have 42%, 43% and 39% who ARE interested. Those are good numbers.
> 
> Now do police, firefighters, airline pilots and truck drivers as a comparison.



Unfortunately that is not quite correct.   In addition to the half the population that was not at all interested there was another quarter (25%) that wasn't very interested.

So the pool of talent is down to less that 25% of all Canadians - micnus those too young, too old and otherwise ineligible.   We start moving to G2G's number.


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## JLB50 (28 Apr 2022)

I think the mainstream media is as much the problem as it is the solution.  Certainly sexual exploitation and racism should be addressed, but the take-away message I get from the media coverage is that the CAF is a bad place to be.  On top of that the politicians from pretty much all political parties never seem to show much enthusiasm for the job of defending one’s country.  It seems better to leave most of our defence to the Americans, much the same as we left it to the Brits in the last century.

So do you blame most people when they don’t have a particularly high opinion of the CAF?  One of these days Canada will wake up to what’s happening (or not happening, depending on your viewpoint).  But will it be too late?


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## mariomike (28 Apr 2022)

Quirky said:


> Now do police, firefighters, airline pilots and truck drivers as a comparison.



I would guess the first three have relatively high retention rates, compared to the CAF.

As for truck drivers, I have read the industry has a poor retention rate, and many are searching for jobs that offer better pay, benefits and working conditions.

That years ago it was considered a better job than now.

The Truck Driver Shortage – The Dirty Truth No One Talks About​








						The Truck Driver Shortage in 2021 - The Dirty Truth No One Talks About
					

The REAL reasons there is a truck driver shortage. What steps are being taken to end it? Do they intend to EVER do what it takes to end it?




					www.smart-trucking.com
				




On the other hand, ( at least in the U.S. )








						Walmart starting pay range for new truck drivers is between $95,000 and $110,000 after wage increase
					

Walmart is driving up pay for its truck drivers. The retailer announced a driver pay increase and a training program to certify employees as drivers.



					www.usatoday.com


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## dimsum (28 Apr 2022)

A response:


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/udsorj/_/i6itsc2


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## Good2Golf (28 Apr 2022)

Pretty sure most Canadians don’t want to be a politician…for example.


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## FSTO (28 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> A response:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/udsorj/_/i6itsc2


Embrace what we are, the nation's rapid reaction team. Its open to all and you'll be challenged in unbelievable ways but you'll have a rewarding experience no matter how long you serve.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Apr 2022)

And 99% want to be a pop singing sensation.....

And that means as much as the survey.


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## rmc_wannabe (28 Apr 2022)

Same thing with sanitation workers, janitorial staff, contractors, pipefitters, electricians, etc. Our school systems are often the biggest proponents of avoiding anything blue collar. My son doesn't want to go to university, but has been bandied about the head by his school administration with it as his only option for success in life. 

Like most blue collar industries have done, we should open up recruiting to Permanent Residents and Commonwealth applicants. Screen them, employ them, have them take a chunk of money and send it home, or offer citizenship after their first 5 years.


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## Bluebulldog (28 Apr 2022)

Given that 34% of Canadians plan to retire by winning the lottery....

A steady, growth based career, which offers unique opportunity, pension and benefits...I'd say many of those who weren't in favour don't generally know much about the CAF.


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## Bluebulldog (28 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Same thing with sanitation workers, janitorial staff, contractors, pipefitters, electricians, etc. Our school systems are often the biggest proponents of avoiding anything blue collar. My son doesn't want to go to university, but has been bandied about the head by his school administration with it as his only option for success in life.
> 
> Like most blue collar industries have done, we should open up recruiting to Permanent Residents and Commonwealth applicants. Screen them, employ them, have them take a chunk of money and send it home, or offer citizenship after their first 5 years.


I once had a conversation with a bunch of teachers at a dinner party....( Longest 3 hours of my life).

Several had a hard time grasping how I made more than them, without benefit of a Uni Degree....


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## mariomike (28 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> I once had a conversation with a bunch of teachers at a dinner party....( Longest 3 hours of my life).
> 
> Several had a hard time grasping how I made more than them, without benefit of a Uni Degree....



Regarding teachers,









						Number of Ontario teachers on Sunshine List doubles
					

The number of Ontario teachers on the Sunshine List more than doubled last year.




					torontosun.com
				






rmc_wannabe said:


> Same thing with sanitation workers, janitorial staff, contractors, pipefitters, electricians, etc. Our school systems are often the biggest proponents of avoiding anything blue collar.



Some prefer clean, inside work with no heavy lifting and a thermostat on the wall.


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## Bluebulldog (28 Apr 2022)

Oh, Mike, let's not digress down that particular rabbit hole....

We'd be here all day.

Suffice it to say: Years ago many came to the teaching profession after successful careers in other fields. Often taking the year of Teachers College, and then moving into the profession, with a ton of world view knowledge, gained from actually being out in the world. 
Now, "Teacher" is a profession unto itself, with many in the role moving from high school, to post secondary, to teachers college, all prior to the age of 25, and many without ever having developed a callus from doing other work. 

it is a self perpetuating animal. How can a guidance counselor actually speak to a young adult about options, if they really only have experience with one? The idea of a trade, or the CAF is foreign, despite being highly rewarding, and often resulting in pay scales far above white collar work.


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## mariomike (28 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Like most blue collar industries have done, we should open up recruiting to Permanent Residents and Commonwealth applicants. Screen them, employ them, have them take a chunk of money and send it home, or offer citizenship after their first 5 years.



Looks like Permanent Residents can become citizens without serving five years in the military.






						Apply for Canadian citizenship - Canada.ca
					

Apply for Canadian citizenship




					www.canada.ca
				







> To become a Canadian citizen, most applicants must




be a permanent resident
have lived in Canada for at least 3 out of the last 5 years (1,095 days)
have filed their taxes
pass a citizenship test
prove their language skills in English or French
Although, it has been discussed,









						Enroll Permanent Resident / Naturalized Citizen
					

If you are not born a Canadian citizen, you need to become "naturalized" to become one.  The certificate they give you when you become a Canadian would be your naturalization certificate.  It's also known as a "Certificate of Canadian Citizenship."  It should be the same documentation you gave...




					army.ca
				



12 pages.



> accepting commonwealth citizens as the UK does.



Don't quote me on this, but I have a vague memory of reading that somewhere many years ago.


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## rmc_wannabe (28 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> Some prefer clean, inside work with no heavy lifting and a thermostat on the wall.


And all the power to them. We do have to remember that other facets of our society need to be in place as well.


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## Underway (28 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> Looks like Permanent Residents can become citizens without serving five years in the military.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep,  I mentioned this on the other thread but it bears repeating here:



> There are fixes for recruitment issues on this. But it requires a whole of government approach that I don't think the Treasury Board or Immigration are willing to change.
> 
> accepting security clearances from Immigration Canada as valid for Basic Training and certain trades, if better security clearances are needed then initiate them at recruiting group and delay their trades training until its valid (Treasury Board Policy)
> accepting non-citizens through a "gain your citizenship program" similar to the USMC or French Foreign Legion (Immigration and Treasury Board Policy)
> ...



This would plug recruiting gaps in one year as 1/2 million people come to Canada and need work every year.  It would also put us on the very forefront of welcoming new Immigrants.  What's more Canadian then that?


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## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

JLB50 said:


> I think the mainstream media is as much the problem as it is the solution.  Certainly sexual exploitation and racism should be addressed, but the take-away message I get from the media coverage is that the CAF is a bad place to be.  On top of that the politicians from pretty much all political parties never seem to show much enthusiasm for the job of defending one’s country.  It seems better to leave most of our defence to the Americans, much the same as we left it to the Brits in the last century.
> 
> So do you blame most people when they don’t have a particularly high opinion of the CAF?  One of these days Canada will wake up to what’s happening (or not happening, depending on your viewpoint).  But will it be too late?



I think the heart of the issue might be this:

_"There is a great deal of advertising that is much better than the product. When that happens, all that the good advertising will do is put you out of business faster." - Jerry Della Femina_


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## RangerRay (28 Apr 2022)

Is there a profession that would get a majority saying they want to be?


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## JLB50 (28 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I think the heart of the issue might be this:
> 
> _"There is a great deal of advertising that is much better than the product. When that happens, all that the good advertising will do is put you out of business faster." - Jerry Della Femina_


The problem is, I don’t think there has been much good advertising to put them out of business.  Or even any advertising to speak of.  Just a few dribs and drabs.  Death by a thousand cuts.  I hate to think what would happen if patriotism in Canada were really put to the test.


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## Quirky (28 Apr 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Is there a profession that would get a majority saying they want to be?


In Canada? NHL hockey player.


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## mariomike (28 Apr 2022)

Underway said:


> This would plug recruiting gaps in one year as 1/2 million people come to Canada and need work every year.



Good idea.

Also, some good ideas for retention of those already in,

OP:


> I feel that the CAF need to do more to retain our members.











						Retention vs Recruiting
					

I always thought these ads covered all the bases:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYeEMRXt2o   Doing awesome shit while drinking on Fridays? This would not hit any of the kinder and gentler metrics we are trying to target!




					army.ca


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

*"Majority of Canadians have no interest in dirty, strenuous, frequently outdoor, occasionally hazardous work."

Film at 11.*


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## dimsum (28 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Same thing with sanitation workers, janitorial staff, contractors, pipefitters, electricians, etc. Our school systems are often the biggest proponents of avoiding anything blue collar. My son doesn't want to go to university, but has been bandied about the head by his school administration with it as his only option for success in life.
> 
> Like most blue collar industries have done, we should open up recruiting to Permanent Residents and Commonwealth applicants. Screen them, employ them, have them take a chunk of money and send it home, or offer citizenship after their first 5 years.


Now that I've had some time to think about it, I don't think the military is purely blue-collar.  There are plenty of white collar jobs in the CAF but when people think "military", most people think "infantry" or "jet pilot".

What the CAF should also publicize is that there are tons of other jobs, and some really interesting ones that you generally need to transfer into.  



mariomike said:


> Some prefer clean, inside work with no heavy lifting and a thermostat on the wall.


So, AERE, PAO, TDO, Physiotherapist, Social Worker, Legal...


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## RangerRay (28 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> *"Majority of Canadians have no interest in dirty, strenuous, frequently outdoor, occasionally hazardous work."
> 
> Film at 11.*


Nor do they like being told how to dress, how to cut their hair, how to walk, being confined to barracks, waking up at 0 dark 30, getting yelled at, being called “f’ing hemorrhoids”…

Did I miss anything? 🙂


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## dimsum (28 Apr 2022)

RangerRay said:


> how to cut their hair


Soon to be a thing of the past.


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## Bluebulldog (28 Apr 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Nor do they like being told how to dress, how to cut their hair, how to walk, being confined to barracks, waking up at 0 dark 30, getting yelled at, being called “f’ing hemorrhoids”…
> 
> Did I miss anything? 🙂


That's page 1....


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## FSTO (28 Apr 2022)

Our advertising are crap. Being beside the US and inundated 24/7 by US Culture, I would hazard that most Canadians know all about "ARMY, AIRFORCE, NAVY MARINES!" meanwhile we have this milktoast obscure message that doesn't say a damn thing


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

Well, we carry briefcases.   Life in the CAF is basically a uniformed middle management job!


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## Grimey (28 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Same thing with sanitation workers, janitorial staff, contractors, pipefitters, electricians, etc. Our school systems are often the biggest proponents of avoiding anything blue collar. My son doesn't want to go to university, but has been bandied about the head by his school administration with it as his only option for success in life.
> 
> Like most blue collar industries have done, we should open up recruiting to Permanent Residents and Commonwealth applicants. Screen them, employ them, have them take a chunk of money and send it home, or offer citizenship after their first 5 years.


Although they didn't implicitly state it, the feeling you got from early 80s HS Guidance Councilors wasn't much different.  Uni was the preference, Community College was a somewhat acceptable alternative, the trades were sneered at and if by chance you showed an inkling of interest in the CF, you were pretty much written off.  I doubt their approach has changed much.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

For those sneering at trades, the older houses (c. 1990) in the neighbourhood I live in now routinely list above $1M.  (I bought "older" in 2007 under $500K).  Lots of RVs, a few boats on trailers, typically every 2- (and 3-) car garage either full of recreational stuff and/or some kind of classic/hobby car.

Parked in many driveways come end of day: tradesmen's vans and pickups.


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## rmc_wannabe (28 Apr 2022)

Grimey said:


> Although they didn't implicitly state it, the feeling you got from early 80s HS Guidance Councilors wasn't much different.  Uni was the preference, Community College was a somewhat acceptable alternative, the trades were sneered at and if by chance you showed an inkling of interest in the CF, you were pretty much written off.  I doubt their approach has changed much.


Same approach as 2006 when I graduated. Same as what my kid is going through in 2022. 
You're thought a fool if you wish to work with your hands and not advance to "higher education."


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## OldSolduer (28 Apr 2022)

Its not just the crappy ads, nor the sexual crap or even the toxic crap.

Canadians have been taught they are "entitled to their entitlements" AND want nothing to do with anything that might inconvenience them. Especially anything "military" unless of course a blue beret goes with it. 

Having said that droves of people were signing up like crazy to get to Afghanistan.


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## IKnowNothing (28 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> For those sneering at trades, the older houses (c. 1990) in the neighbourhood I live in now routinely list above $1M.  (I bought "older" in 2007 under $500K).  Lots of RVs, a few boats on trailers, typically every 2- (and 3-) car garage either full of recreational stuff and/or some kind of classic/hobby car.
> 
> Parked in many driveways come end of day: tradesmen's vans and pickups.


 A lot of inherent advantages to the trades, especially in a real estate driven economy
-skills to use your trade on your own property (and also tangential skills to do other work outside of your trade)
-connections to have skills you don't have completed by buddies for cash
-connections to materials at cost/wholesale
-4 years of earnings vs. 4 years of tuition cost
-likely go rent free longer
-likely buy younger

The interaction compounds pretty fast.  You have to do pretty damn well for yourself post graduation to catch up.

Couple that with the runaway housing market since ~11 making each year of delay costlier and it's quite the recipe for success relative to higher education.


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## btrudy (28 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Its not just the crappy ads, nor the sexual crap or even the toxic crap.
> 
> Canadians have been taught they are "entitled to their entitlements" AND want nothing to do with anything that might inconvenience them. Especially anything "military" unless of course a blue beret goes with it.
> 
> Having said that droves of people were signing up like crazy to get to Afghanistan.



Ultimately, if the CAF is having problems recruiting and retaining personnel because of the changing attitudes and tolerance for various working conditions of the general public, it's up to the CAF to change their working conditions to adapt. Whinging about how kids these days are soft or whatnot isn't going to fix anything.

This isn't to say that we need to abandon the actual job entirely, but at least stop making it suck as badly. People join the Navy understanding that they're going to have to sail, but that doesn't mean that you need to make people hop from jetty to jetty because you've got more ships going to sea than you have personnel to sail it. 

Burning people out to support a brutal opsched is unsustainable. All you're doing is making the problem worse. But god forbid anyone suggests cutting back on the amount of going to sea we have the fleet do. God forbid we let our actual capacity determine what we are able to do, and plan accordingly.


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## OldSolduer (28 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> Ultimately, if the CAF is having problems recruiting and retaining personnel because of the changing attitudes and tolerance for various working conditions of the general public, it's up to the CAF to change their working conditions to adapt. Whinging about how kids these days are soft or whatnot isn't going to fix anything.
> 
> This isn't to say that we need to abandon the actual job entirely, but at least stop making it suck as badly. People join the Navy understanding that they're going to have to sail, but that doesn't mean that you need to make people hop from jetty to jetty because you've got more ships going to sea than you have personnel to sail it.
> 
> Burning people out to support a brutal opsched is unsustainable. All you're doing is making the problem worse. But god forbid anyone suggests cutting back on the amount of going to sea we have the fleet do. God forbid we let our actual capacity determine what we are able to do, and plan accordingly.


I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.

My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.


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## btrudy (28 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.
> 
> My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.


Honestly, I don't think that's really all that accurate.

I think it's more so that "the nation" is made up of people who are unwilling to undergo hardship for the sake of hardship. For example: training exercises where the exercise is intentionally made harder and more uncomfortable and unpleasant than you'd actually ever see on operations.

Aside from the fact that it's abandoning the notion of train as you fight, it's going to be largely viewed by those "kids now-a-days" as pointless misery, and not as what I suspect "older generations" of CAF members would view it as, character building.

If you're going to expect people to endure suffering, _they're_ going to expect it to be for a good reason. If you want people to sacrifice, then it needs a good reason.


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## dimsum (28 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> Our advertising are crap. Being beside the US and inundated 24/7 by US Culture, I would hazard that most Canadians know all about "ARMY, AIRFORCE, NAVY MARINES!" meanwhile we have this milktoast obscure message that doesn't say a damn thing


I've posted this before but we can (and sometimes do) post really good PR things, like below.  

Just that no one watches them, because reasons.


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## rmc_wannabe (28 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.
> 
> My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.


Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig.

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people.


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## Prairie canuck (28 Apr 2022)

In speaking with my son's buddies (early 20's) it's all about the money and learning a trade that they can use later. One is in the reserves and lives on the wages he makes from that so the pay seems pretty good.. They suggest focusing on the wages and trades/skills.


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## Weinie (28 Apr 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.
> 
> Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.
> 
> ...


Feel better now?


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## Halifax Tar (28 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Feel better now?



Do you ? 



rmc_wannabe said:


> Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig.
> 
> Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig.
> 
> ...



I think you hit the nail on the head.  People don't mind hardship and sacrifice but it has to be for a well articulated and understood reason. 

Because because doesn't fly anymore.


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## Quirky (28 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> God forbid we let our actual capacity determine what we are able to do, and plan accordingly.



There in lies the problem, we are operating as if we're 100% manned. Every mission and tasking is a no-fail. 



OldSolduer said:


> Having said that droves of people were signing up like crazy to get to Afghanistan.


"There are four types of people who join the military. For some, it's family trade. Others are patriots, eager to serve. Next you have those who just need a job. Than there's the kind who want the legal means of killing other people."

I joined 2 years after 9/11 and half of our basic was infantry. I'd say the quote above is very accurate from what I saw.


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## IKnowNothing (28 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I agree with you for the most part. As I am sure you know the "working conditions" might be getting shot at, freezing your ass off in an assembly area, being soaked to the skin and hypothermic or extreme heat. Never mind getting yelled at to "move up on the left" as you try to attack an objective.
> 
> My point being is that the nation has forgotten what sacrifice is.


Honestly I think both you and @btrudy are missing the mark.  It's not combat, but full-time police and firefighting gigs are extremely competitive to get into, both carry the risk.  All kinds of fully staffed jobs carry physical hardship, institutional BS, etc.

In my eyes (speaking as someone who has decided against myself) bigger factors are
-place.  drawing a commute radius around every CAF base and duty station, assume that a significant % of the population outside of those circles have no interest in coming within (or leaving where they are)
-lifestyle.  tonnes of Canadians will move mountains for their jobs and careers, work stupid hours, etc. But they want to leave it there and have a home and family life outside of that, that is their own.
-family. Combination of the two above, + having a significant other on board

That's threading a needle. Narrow pool on board with all of: the danger, the hardship, the institutional bs, the geography, the lifestyle, and has their family on board.  Then that pool does their due diligence, reads about Hornets almost ready to fall out the sky, leadership scandals, Battalions that haven't been equipped to modern standards for doctrine in (a) decade(s)(? )....   then they go up north. Or to the oilpatch, etc


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## Infanteer (28 Apr 2022)

_Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF_

Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF.  I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.

Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.


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## Good2Golf (28 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, *we carry briefcases*.   Life in the CAF is basically a uniformed middle management job!



There's no life like it!


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

> training exercises where the exercise is intentionally made harder and more uncomfortable and unpleasant than you'd actually ever see on operations



Training harder than you expect to fight is always worthwhile; it's also unlikely that any kind of training will approach the worst days of operations (war).  Permissive or non-permissive peacekeeping, and low intensity operations, aren't good yardsticks for "train as you fight".

Some of the mental/physical/financial stresses can be mitigated by the CAF alone; ultimately the important drivers are the requirements imposed by government and resources provided by government.  Those are political factors and can only be fixed in the political arena.  Laying all of that sh!t at the feet of DND/CAF is awesome for the politicians - they love it when people carry that water - but fruitless for fixing problems at the source.

This is part of the same bag of propaganda as the notion that CAF has to reflect the population and has racism problems of crisis magnitude.  Armed forces in most countries have rarely reflected a population; but lo, they have successfully fought wars.  The US has always experienced much more severe racism than Canada, but somehow it manages.  It's high time people started grabbing the politicians and talking heads by the snout (figuratively) and challenging them on the happy horsesh!t they parade as premises for their arguments.  Force them to articulate rational arguments and divide what can/should be fixed by the CAF from the honey-do lists of people who are unhappy with status quo Canadian society.


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## Weinie (28 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Do you ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.

*When someone posts:*

Sacrifice in on operations are totally part of the gig. CHECK

Sacrificing your family's financial well-being to be posted arbitrarily ever 2 years isn't part of the gig. GET OVER IT. IT ACTUALLY IS PART OF THE GIG. WHAT GIG DID YOU THINK YOU WERE GETTING GIGGED INTO?

Sacrificing mental and physical health due to toxic leadership and unsafe work conditions, in Canada, is not part of the gig. I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN MANY TOXIC LEADERS OR UNSAFE WORK CONDITIONS. YOU CAN ALWAYS VOTE WITH YOUR FEET.

Sacrificing your mental and physical health because Capt McFuckknucles can't keep it in his pants after a few beers isn't part of the gig. NOT EXCUSING IT, BUT WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. HAVE YOU WATCHED TV/SURFED THE INTERNET LATELY? IT IS NOT A CAF EXCLUSIVE PROBLEM. SOME PEOPLE ARE A-HOLES.

Sacrificing your physical health by living in a condemned, asbestos riddled, building for 3 years isn't part of the gig. IF IT WAS CONDEMNED, YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO LIVE IN IT. IF YOU WERE, CONTACT VAC

Sacrifice and hardship are part of the gig; but it has been used as a catch all for piss poor management of resources, maintenance, and looking after the well-being of our people. THROUGHOUT MY GIG, SACRIFICE AND HARDSHIP CAME ON OPS, SUPPORTING OPS, AND LOOKING AFTER THE WELL BEING OF MY PEOPLE. IT WAS A CATCH ALL, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WAS EXPECTED/REQUIRED.


----------



## JLB50 (28 Apr 2022)

All of what I’m hearing makes for a strong case in favour of, yes, you guessed it…conscription...especially Swiss-style conscription like they have for every able-bodied male (or able-bodied whatever).  Not saying we’ll ever get it though. Mr. Fancy Sox himself would never have the balls to do it.  Oh, I forgot, he never did seem to have any balls In the first place.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

1. Conscription is an illiberal imposition on the people conscripted.
2. We don't need that many people.  As I wrote once before, divide half (assume half are unsuitable for one reason or another, a ridiculously generous overestimate) of the number of annual high school graduates in Canada by the maximum number of people in a training platoon and explain how that many courses could be run each year.
3. It's another drain on effectiveness to impose upon leaders the burden of leading people who don't really want to be there.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Training harder than you expect to fight is always worthwhile; it's also unlikely that any kind of training will approach the worst days of operations (war).  Permissive or non-permissive peacekeeping, and low intensity operations, aren't good yardsticks for "train as you fight".



In my experience most soldiers and Junior Officers want to do this, to push themselves and 'train as we fight', because they know that the real thing is really hard.

Many Senior Officers and NCOs are of the opposite opinion, and will not entertain really tough training for a variety of reasons related to overall risk aversion.

And also because alot of them are just pussies


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.
> 
> *When someone posts:*
> 
> ...



Thank you for your service and I hope you get the most out of retirement.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (28 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.
> 
> *When someone posts:*
> 
> ...


This is part of the culture we are trying to shift away from. 

#TYFYS.


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Apr 2022)

Infanteer said:


> _Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF_
> 
> Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF.  I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.
> 
> Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.


I think you‘ve nailed it, 👍🏻


----------



## MilEME09 (28 Apr 2022)

Infanteer said:


> _Majority of Canadians not interested in joining the CAF_
> 
> Good, I don't want nor need a majority of Canadians in the CAF.  I want the best Canadians, and want them to look at the CAF as either a good short term experience or long term career.
> 
> Now its up to leaders (like me, I guess?) to make the institution a place where the best want to be.


I agree, but what it shows is less and less consider it a career, meaning less volume going to recruiting centers, and even less candidates to select.


----------



## btrudy (28 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> Let me give you my perspective. I have been in more than 39 years. Started out in the ranks, and am now a Sr officer. Served both Reg and Reserve.
> 
> *When someone posts:*
> 
> ...


Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.

It's like some people forget that loyalty is a two-way street. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it worth their while. Berating them about how "IT"S PART OF THE GIG WHY DID YOU SIGN UP" when they express displeasure about aspects of the job which are destroying their finances, relationships, etc will result in "You're right, why the hell did I sign up, I'm out of here".

If we want to keep people, we need to _be a better employer_ than the alternatives. Stop telling people that they "can always vote with their feet", BECAUSE THEY ARE AND THAT'S THE BLOODY PROBLEM.

Or, you know, instead you can yell at people when they tell you why they're leaving. That'll improve morale.


----------



## dimsum (28 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> I agree, but what it shows is less and less consider it a career, meaning less volume going to recruiting centers, and even less candidates to select.


I wouldn't say that less people considering it a 25-year career would mean that fewer people are going to recruiting centres.

There are plenty of articles saying that the current generation aren't tied to lifetime careers.  So, maybe offering it as one is the wrong approach.  What do our allies in Australia, New Zealand, etc do?

I'm sure others have said it here but offer it as something different when you're in your early 20s.  If you want to continue, then make it a career.

On the other hand, we're one of the few employers to offer a pension you can collect before age 65.  That won't appeal to an 18-year old, but probably will to a 25 or 30-year old.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

No point arguing over (guessing) why people are leaving without numbers.  CAF needs to face facts, but they have to be facts (empirical), not conjecture based on stories and people who've been able to tell them.


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> I wouldn't say that less people considering it a 25-year career would mean that fewer people are going to recruiting centres.


The issue is that the CAF sold itself for years as a career with a pension as a carrot. With new demographic for whom a long career or a pension is not what drives them, we’re not attracting as many people as we could. We need to market ourselves in many different ways to appeal for many different types of people, not just those that want a full 25-year career.  Once people are in, we need progressively better incentives to keep them in.


----------



## mariomike (28 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> It's not combat, but full-time police and firefighting gigs are extremely competitive to get into, both carry the risk.



One thing about that type of job, they don't transfer you from your station, schedule or partner / crew. 

Unless you bid for one. Even if you do, your new station or HQ, would be within city limits - so, no need to sell your home.

That may, or may not be, inportant for some.. That's for them to decide.


----------



## btrudy (28 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> I agree, but what it shows is less and less consider it a career, meaning less volume going to recruiting centers, and even less candidates to select.





dimsum said:


> I wouldn't say that less people considering it a 25-year career would mean that fewer people are going to recruiting centres.
> 
> There are plenty of articles saying that the current generation aren't tied to lifetime careers.  So, maybe offering it as one is the wrong approach.  What do our allies in Australia, New Zealand, etc do?
> 
> ...


I think this makes the future even more bleak for the organization. Workers now-a-days are used to the notion of job-hopping. Get a job, work there for a little bit, leave for a better paying job. In a very real way that's often the only way to get ahead in one's career.

We, on the other hand, are hamstrung. Because we only ever hire at the ground level, we'll get the people in the door, we'll spend money to train them up, and then they'll leave for better positions. We don't ever gain the benefit of hiring people who had been trained elsewhere, because no matter what we only take people in as 2Lts or Privates. We're not recruiting majors or CPOs. 

So the only real way to combat that would be to make sure that people who we do have in aren't able to find better positions, by making the positions they do have better than what they could get elsewhere. This will require significant changes in both compensation and the way we go about doing business. Especially the whole "you're posted, I don't give a shit if you can't afford to buy a place there" part.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.



He's not wrong. It _is_ part of the gig, but that's not to say it should be, or that we shouldn't try to do better. 

People joining need to accept that there will be lots of hardships and sacrifice, the onus is on the CAF to do their best to mitigate it and not use people like they're an easily replaceable resource. 

I'm not sure if our recruiters are just lying to people or what's going on but there's been a serious lack of managing people's expectations. I kid you not a few weeks ago I seen a memo where a new soldier wanted to get out of going to Wainwright because they didn't have anyone to watch their dog and (new buzz phrase) it would negatively impact their mental health.


----------



## IKnowNothing (28 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> One thing about that type of job, they don't transfer you from your station, schedule or partner / crew.
> 
> Unless you bid for one. Even if you do, your new station or HQ, would be within city limits - so, no need to sell your home.
> 
> That may, or may not be, inportant for some.. That's for them to decide.


Exactly.  That ties into the rest of the post.   I don't buy the "Canadian's today are soft" reasoning.  Plenty of dangerous jobs are filled. Plenty of hard jobs are filled.   In my opinion the issue isn't that people don't want the jobs-it's that people don't want the employment structure, and I don't have an answer for that, except for maybe reserve reform (which only really helps the Army).

And related to that.  10+ million Canadians live in Southwestern Ontario and the Golden Horseshoe.  Assuming proportional distribution of Canadian's willing to do the "job", fully 1/4 of the pool has to be willing to move away from the their lives, friends, families (with limited to no chance of returning full time in their professional lives) before they even consider the rest.   Like you said,  important to some, and for them to decide.


----------



## dangerboy (28 Apr 2022)

Does the RCMP have issues with their people not liking being posted around and living in remote areas?


----------



## Infanteer (28 Apr 2022)




----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2022)

dangerboy said:


> Does the RCMP have issues with their people not liking being posted around and living in remote areas?


Yes they do.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> I would guess the first three have relatively high retention rates, compared to the CAF.
> 
> As for truck drivers, I have read the industry has a poor retention rate, and many are searching for jobs that offer better pay, benefits and working conditions.
> 
> ...


See also:


----------



## Booter (28 Apr 2022)

dangerboy said:


> Does the RCMP have issues with their people not liking being posted around and living in remote areas?


Yes. Constantly. And it’s actually not enforceable if a person fights it hard enough.


----------



## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

Well, we're not going to hire in people above ground level unless we start headhunting other countries' militaries, which they might resent, or hire from the Golden Company or Second Sons.

The pension (and pretty much any DB plan) is a pretty good deal.  People are free to leave and job hop as much as they wish.  They might not be thinking too much about retirement, but there are plenty of horrible examples out there of people who failed to plan for it.  Pinning hopes on inheritance?  Maybe, if governments don't get so starved for cash that they take most of it away.

The number of people needed relative to the number of people not thoroughly disinterested still works in the CAF's favour.  The correct answer to "survey shows X% of people not interested in CAF" is not "we will change", but rather should be "their commitment factor is obviously not high enough anyways".


----------



## Navy_Pete (28 Apr 2022)

We poached a few LCdrs on exchange from the RN and that billet stopped getting filled. May have just been a coincidence, but it was a no brainer for them. They had a better QoL here, got a pay raise, etc and had better chances for promotion.

Might be easier for the navy side, as the RN, RAN and RNZN operate a similar watch and trade system, so for engineers it's not much of a transition, other than figuring out a different bureaucracy. Know a few people that switched over the other way as well from the RCN, so if you bring something to the table they will be happy to take you on.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Apr 2022)

Why not bring in qualified personnel at higher ranks?  The CAF has announced that they'll be buying Airbus air to air refuellers, which are based on the Airbus A330 platform.  Why not hire an instructor pilot with 1000+ hours on type from Air Canada and bring them in directly as a senior major?

Why not bring an experienced Nurse Practitioner as a Capt IPC 7?

In military occupation with direct or near-direct correlations with the civilian workforce, entry level recruiting is an obstacle to getting an effective workforce.


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> He's not wrong. It _is_ part of the gig, but that's not to say it should be, or that we shouldn't try to do better.
> 
> People joining need to accept that there will be lots of hardships and sacrifice, the onus is on the CAF to do their best to mitigate it and not use people like they're an easily replaceable resource.
> 
> I'm not sure if our recruiters are just lying to people or what's going on but there's been a serious lack of managing people's expectations. I kid you not a few weeks ago I seen a memo where a new soldier wanted to get out of going to Wainwright because they didn't have anyone to watch their dog and (new buzz phrase) it would negatively impact their mental health.



Back in the day, a canny lad would have figured out how to have the dog adopted at the Regimental Mascot


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Well, we're not going to hire in people above ground level unless we start headhunting other countries' militaries, which they might resent, or hire from the Golden Company or Second Sons.
> 
> The pension (and pretty much any DB plan) is a pretty good deal.  People are free to leave and job hop as much as they wish.  They might not be thinking too much about retirement, but there are plenty of horrible examples out there of people who failed to plan for it.  Pinning hopes on inheritance?  Maybe, if governments don't get so starved for cash that they take most of it away.
> 
> The number of people needed relative to the number of people not thoroughly disinterested still works in the CAF's favour.  The correct answer to "survey shows X% of people not interested in CAF" is not "we will change", but rather should be* "their commitment factor is obviously not high enough anyways".*



Or we haven't done our homework with respect to Gen Z, especially re: that flexibility thing:

How To Meet Gen Z’s Workplace Expectations​
Like the Millennials who came before them, the Gen Z cohort — which is starting to graduate from high school or college and get their first adult jobs — have grown up with technology literally at their fingertips. This generation has never known life without the internet — or, for some, without smartphones. Their worldview has been profoundly shaped not only by the ability to broadcast far and wide their opinions, frustrations and perceived injustices but also by events like the Great Recession, in which many of their parents lost jobs and older Millennial siblings were forced to move back home. Then came the pandemic. 

Gen Z’s pre-pandemic expectations of flexibility in the workplace are more likely to be met given the changed reality in the past 18 months of most non-essential workers working from home. Recognizing that every individual will have their own preferences, here are a few ways Gen Z could impact the way we work in the years to come.
*
Values-Based Careers *

On top of pandemic-related health concerns, Gen Z faces some of the greatest environmental, social and economic crises in history. And, as noted earlier, this is a generation that has no hesitation in confronting an issue, raising their voice and calling for change. As consumers, they support brands that align with their values and rely on those values when making their career choices. According to “The Deloitte Global 2021 Millennial and Gen Z Survey,” nearly half (49%) of the respondents said they have made choices on their career path and potential employers they’d like to work for based on the organization’s values and ethics.

Gen Z, along with Millennials, is the generation leading the Great Resignation, leaving careers and companies that they feel are not working in society’s best interest or in alignment with their own moral code. This could leave industries and organizations that are slow or resistant to change facing a long-term talent shortage as Baby Boomers and Gen X employees retire. 

The Gen Z and Millennial generations, in particular, want to work with a company that stands for a purpose beyond simply making a profit and want to feel their work is making a positive societal or environmental impact. Employers can empower these workers, leveraging their passion and determination to create a better future through activities and policies such as establishing employee support groups (ESGs), supporting community activities and offering volunteer time off (VTO).

*Flexible Schedules *

Gen Z is no longer unique in demanding work-life balance, especially now that many of the employees who have worked productively out of the office for nearly two years have grown accustomed to the new flexibility of a remote work structure. Despite this, according to the Deloitte study, Gen Z expects to spend more time working in an office setting once pandemic restrictions are lifted, and many have expressed excitement at the prospect of experiencing a formal work environment, although not necessarily full-time. Perhaps this is not surprising, given that this is the

The 40-hour, 9-to-5 workweek is not as appealing to most Gen Z workers, who prefer space to pursue personal and professional fulfillment on their own terms. At Wonolo, we recently published data that showed many Gen Z’ers are gravitating toward gig work as a flexible way to pay off student loans and focus on other entrepreneurial endeavors and personal passions. Enabling employees to work from other offices, or remotely from a location they have aspired to live, or providing the flexibility to pursue a graduate degree part-time gives Gen Z the opportunity to grow both professionally and personally. 

When Deloitte asked which employee characteristics have become most critical to the success of their company, 40% of Gen Z respondents cited flexibility and adaptability; this sentiment was notably higher than those who listed “expertise and proficiency in the roles for which employees were hired” (24%) and having “values that align with our organization” (14%). The promising news is the same survey found that more than 60% of Gen Z respondents said their companies had developed policies to support flexible working hours and personal and sick leaves. 

*Benefits And Perks  *

Today’s recent graduates are looking for employee benefit packages that not only offer the basics, but also help with non-professional parts of their lives.

For recent graduates — many of whom have hefty college loans to repay — saving for retirement takes a low priority. While some employers go as far as assisting with student loans directly, there are other ways to ensure Gen Z is fiscally fit, including providing financial planners to help with consolidating loans and show them how to save for an emergency.

Lifestyle benefits also are becoming popular. Gym memberships or subsidies are common perks offered by employers. In the age of Covid, ensuring mental wellness has taken center stage, and many employers have begun offering free access to meditation apps and other benefits to keep employees’ minds fit. New lifestyle perks such as flexible spending accounts for items or activities that keep employees healthy and well-rounded have also emerged as a popular perk. These allow employees to expense anything within a specific dollar limit — from a once-in-a-lifetime ski experience to art supplies to a subscription to the opera — that helps them to unwind, expand their horizons and let off steam. 

And, while five years might seem like an eternity to a new grad just starting out in the workplace, sabbaticals are making a comeback, with companies offering a month’s paid time off — on top of the earned PTO — to travel, kick back or otherwise recharge as a reward for longevity. 
Just like the Millennials before them, Gen Z’ers bring new perspectives and new expectations to the working world. Companies that remain flexible and open to doing things differently in a way that resonates with this group will remain top of the list as new grads hit the job market. 









						Council Post: How To Meet Gen Z’s Workplace Expectations
					

Today’s recent graduates are looking for employee benefit packages that not only offer the basics, but also help with non-professional parts of their lives.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Weinie (28 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.
> 
> It's like some people forget that loyalty is a two-way street. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it worth their while. Berating them about how "IT"S PART OF THE GIG WHY DID YOU SIGN UP" when they express displeasure about aspects of the job which are destroying their finances, relationships, etc will result in "You're right, why the hell did I sign up, I'm out of here".
> 
> ...


Me and people like me are the reason we are bleeding personnel?

Sigh........................

Congrats btrudy. You have cracked the code. BONUS:  In 32 days I will be retired, and you will have one less person to push back on your incessant whinging. I will anxiously study the next recruiting stats to see the impact of my retirement.

Who told you, or others, that a career in the CAF would not have challenges? If some are voting with their feet because they don't like it , GOOD. I would suggest that choosing a  job in the CAF does not give one license to say we need to be a "better employer"  because circumstances placed one in a position they didn't like. Again, welcome to the real world.

The BLOODY PROBLEM is that some CAF pers demand that the CAF cater to their demands, instead of understanding the demands of the CAF.  A  "me" vs "we" approach is incongruent.


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Why not bring in qualified personnel at higher ranks?  The CAF has announced that they'll be buying Airbus air to air refuellers, which are based on the Airbus A330 platform.  Why not hire an instructor pilot with 1000+ hours on type from Air Canada and bring them in directly as a senior major?


Because that experienced Air Canada pilot probably makes 250K+ a year, working 8 days a month, and will refuse to work for 140K busting his ass off with non-flying duties.


----------



## FJAG (28 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Exactly.  That ties into the rest of the post.   I don't buy the "Canadian's today are soft" reasoning.  Plenty of dangerous jobs are filled. Plenty of hard jobs are filled.   In my opinion the issue isn't that people don't want the jobs-it's that people don't want the employment structure, and I don't have an answer for that, except for maybe reserve reform (which only really helps the Army).
> 
> And related to that.  10+ million Canadians live in Southwestern Ontario and the Golden Horseshoe.  Assuming proportional distribution of Canadian's willing to do the "job", fully 1/4 of the pool has to be willing to move away from the their lives, friends, families (with limited to no chance of returning full time in their professional lives) before they even consider the rest.   Like you said,  important to some, and for them to decide.


I think you can add to that the two-earner family factor. If I'm reading these stats right Canada has around two million couple families where only one member is a wage earner and 5 million couple families where both members are wage earners. That shows just how important having a second wage earner is to a family and how much stability for them in their employment is to their lives. Note particulalry how much higher the median income is for double earner families - nearly three times for male single earner families and nearly four times for female single earner families.

Our bases are generally not conducive to jobs (especially well paying jobs) for the spouse wage earner. That earning loss really becomes a factor as children come along as the member's career progresses.

Lets not mince words. I loved my military career but I saw a tremendous increase in my earning potential as a civilian. Being able to stay as a reservist was a bonus.

🍻


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Why not bring in qualified personnel at higher ranks?  The CAF has announced that they'll be buying Airbus air to air refuellers, which are based on the Airbus A330 platform.  Why not hire an instructor pilot with 1000+ hours on type from Air Canada and bring them in directly as a senior major?
> 
> Why not bring an experienced Nurse Practitioner as a Capt IPC 7?
> 
> In military occupation with direct or near-direct correlations with the civilian workforce, entry level recruiting is an obstacle to getting an effective workforce.


So an Air Canada AC is now going to be an instant flight commander, writing PERS, managing sec 32/34 and teaching tactics?

Yeah, that should work.

Hey- I have an idea. Let’s poach warehouse managers from Amazon and make them Log O Majs in a Service Battalion. Same thing, right?


----------



## dapaterson (28 Apr 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> So an Air Canada AC is now going to be an instant flight commander, writing PERS, managing sec 32/34 and teaching tactics?
> 
> Yeah, that should work.
> 
> Hey- I have an idea. Let’s poach warehouse managers from Amazon and make them Log O Majs in a Service Battalion. Same thing, right?


Put them into the depots or ADM Mat?  Certainly.  Makes perfect sense.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Apr 2022)

Not everybody needs to stay full 25 year ride, either.

You can contribute if you do BE or two as an NCM or an Officer, then move on.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Put them into the depots or ADM Mat?  Certainly.  Makes perfect sense.


But that is not the comparison you made. You stipulated tactical employment at the pointy end, not me.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Apr 2022)

I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (28 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.


Right. And airline pilots know all about AAR, right?


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I specified an instructor - implying that we would employ them as such to introduce new equipment.


Training will be contracted like we do for the A310s now.


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## dapaterson (28 Apr 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Training will be contracted like we do for the A310s now.


...except we won't be competing for slots with Iranian airlines any more...


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Apr 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Right. And airline pilots know all about AAR, right?


To be fair, we had a program for reservists that we hired off the street, did a small conversion course and received their wings (I met one Griffon pilot and one Gonzo pilot that were under that program). Direct as Captains with about 6 months military experience.


----------



## lenaitch (28 Apr 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> And 99% want to be a pop singing sensation.....
> 
> And that means as much as the survey.


Social media influencer.


----------



## Weinie (28 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Social media influencer.


That is my 15 year old son's stated future. My advice falls on deaf ears.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

I'm sure there are all sorts of non-deployable positions that can be filled, particularly as DND positions.

Doesn't help much with the op tempo of the next roto, though.


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## Brad Sallows (28 Apr 2022)

> The Gen Z and Millennial generations, in particular, want to work with a company that stands for a purpose beyond simply making a profit and want to feel their work is making a positive societal or environmental impact.



The more of those there are, the better the compensation the people willing to do all the non-fulfilling jobs will command.



> Lifestyle benefits also are becoming popular.



It's all just money, but dressed up to sound different.  I pity folks who can be seduced by a gym membership or a "life balance account" rather than the equivalent amount of money to spend as they please.

Every generation manages, somehow.  Buying into a house was easier for me than it will be for them.  Still, I couldn't have done it if I hadn't been using max RRSP contributions as a savings target from "go".


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## lenaitch (28 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> One thing about that type of job, they don't transfer you from your station, schedule or partner / crew.
> 
> Unless you bid for one. Even if you do, your new station or HQ, would be within city limits - so, no need to sell your home.
> 
> That may, or may not be, inportant for some.. That's for them to decide.


Urbanly speaking, of course.  


dangerboy said:


> Does the RCMP have issues with their people not liking being posted around and living in remote areas?


The OPP gets around this in a couple of ways.  A lot of the staffing at northern Ontario detachments is recruits.  Their training officer might have a year or two on (at that location), the Sgt., if there is one onsite, might have 5 or 6 years on, possibly as a constable at that same detachment.  Most northern detachments are fixed duration.  In an effort to get people to stay beyond their term, 'posting incentives' can be in the five figures for another full terms.  Even with that, most do their duration then transfer south.  Gone are the days of arbitrary 'administrative' transfers; I'll bet there hasn't been one for 30 years.  Unless you volunteer for a transfer (paid or unpaid) or enter the promotional process, you can potentially spend your career in one location.

Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF.  I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities.  I'm not saying it should be done at the advertising or attracting stage, but it needs to covered at some point.  In policing, 'your can be (chief), you can help people', needs to tempered with you get to do a lot of that at night and a lot of people you encounter don't want your help - or actively don't like you.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.


Not always true. Several of us on here showed that loyalty is a two way street - and sometimes were unjustly sanctioned for it.


----------



## Booter (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Urbanly speaking, of course.
> 
> The OPP gets around this in a couple of ways.  A lot of the staffing at northern Ontario detachments is recruits.  Their training officer might have a year or two on (at that location), the Sgt., if there is one onsite, might have 5 or 6 years on, possibly as a constable at that same detachment.  Most northern detachments are fixed duration.  In an effort to get people to stay beyond their term, 'posting incentives' can be in the five figures for another full terms.  Even with that, most do their duration then transfer south.  Gone are the days of arbitrary 'administrative' transfers; I'll bet there hasn't been one for 30 years.  Unless you volunteer for a transfer (paid or unpaid) or enter the promotional process, you can potentially spend your career in one location.
> 
> Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF.  I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities.  I'm not saying it should be done at the advertising or attracting stage, but it needs to covered at some point.  In policing, 'your can be (chief), you can help people', needs to tempered with you get to do a lot of that at night and a lot of people you encounter don't want your help - or actively don't like you.


I remember a brand new guy had a prisoner trying to drag him through the meal slot on a cell door. He couldn’t believe he was hated by a stranger.

Or the usual where a brand new cop is shocked at the things said to them, it adds up. Shine comes off fast.


----------



## btrudy (29 Apr 2022)

Weinie said:


> The BLOODY PROBLEM is that some CAF pers demand that the CAF cater to their demands, instead of understanding the demands of the CAF.  A  "me" vs "we" approach is incongruent.


When it is the CAF that has is having chronic personnel issues, then it's the CAF that needs to change to fix those problems.

Expecting the people in the CAF to stop wanting a better employer isn't going to happen. We need to be the better employer.

Honestly, I feel a bit dumber just for for having to explain this. When what the CAF is doing isn't working to meet its own requirements, the CAF needs to fix what it's doing.



Weinie said:


> Who told you, or others, that a career in the CAF would not have challenges? If some are voting with their feet because they don't like it , GOOD. I would suggest that choosing a  job in the CAF does not give one license to say we need to be a "better employer"  because circumstances placed one in a position they didn't like. Again, welcome to the real world.



No one told me that a career in the CAF would not have challenges. But I do, at the least, have an expectation that the challenges not be self-inflicted by the organization. I understand that the job we do has some inherent challenges. What I don't understand is why people don't seem to have a problem with leadership at various levels intentionally or inadvertently making things worse, and then just expecting everyone to "suck it up".

Choosing a job in the CAF does absolutely give anyone a license to expect that they at least be treated well by their employer (literally everyone has that right of any employer). And if those expectations aren't met, to leave. When one person makes this choice, that's a them problem, but when it's happening at the rate we're seeing if happen, that is absolutely an institutional crisis, and I'm quite glad you're getting out because you seem completely blind to that fact.

We need to stem the flow of people, as otherwise it's just going to get worse, and we'll be burning out those people we have left at an every faster rate.

It's not the CAF members leaving that needs to "welcome to the real world". Hell, I'd say they're leaving for "the real world".

It's the CAF. The organization needs to take off its blinders and accept the reality of the HR landscape it's trying to operate in. Because trying to pretend like the same policies that we've had in place since Nelson was a subbie are still a reasonable way to go about running things simply isn't going to cut it. People in the CAF aren't baby boomers any more, so using policies that worked to attract and retain them isn't going to work.


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## Humphrey Bogart (29 Apr 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> The issue is that the CAF sold itself for years as a career with a pension as a carrot. With new demographic for whom a long career or a pension is not what drives them, we’re not attracting as many people as we could. We need to market ourselves in many different ways to appeal for many different types of people, not just those that want a full 25-year career.  Once people are in, we need progressively better incentives to keep them in.



To me, this is the crux of the issue.  I would be more than happy to remain a Reservist, keep myself physically fit and keep my "oars in the water" should something come up that interests me.  A war or actual Expeditionary operation would be that that thing but I wouldn't want to deal with our BS training system again.

I think the entire "career + pension for life" is the wrong  selling point for many of the trades in the Armed Forces.  

The reality, is many/most never make it to 25 and few make a "career" out of it.  I wonder how many people that join the CAF actually end up collecting a full pension?

Certain trades also have a real and legitimate "best before" date for people.  

The CAF should be advertising the opportunity to shoot guns, operate dangerous and expensive equipment and push it to the limit while occasionally getting the odd adrenaline rush with the opportunity to maybe..... if the stars align.... do some actual operations.


----------



## Dana381 (29 Apr 2022)

I would like to share some observations from an outsider, things I think are causing the recruitment problem. 

The guidance counselor point is true and a big one. Same goes for trades, white collar people look down on trades people and non-intellectuals. They believe to be successful you must pass through a university.
Recruitment time, why does it take so long? We live in an instant society. No one wants to take two years to find out if they got the job. They can use those 2 years productively on another career. I remember the movie "In the army now" he walked into a recruitment office, signed a paper and began being yelled at inside 5 minutes.
Government interference, cons=good times, libs=bad times, is the perception of the masses. When I was in high school, during Cretien the CAF was trying to get people to quit. Some people think they are still doing that. The CAF experience needs to be more stable of changing governments.
Patriotism, severely lacking in Canada. There are a number of reasons but the media is to blame for most of it. They make money off of division so they can't push patriotism because that brings people together
A general feeling our military is inept and underfunded. While this is true to some degree the opinion is much worse then reality I believe. This is also largely the fault of the media. The only news surrounding the CAF they will "print" is negative. During Afghanistan they criticized the CAF for not having the right equipment to protect the soldiers, equipment they made it impossible for the CAF to purchase, tanks with A/C for example. In the 90's buying new tanks would have been political suicide.
Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

I think the survey is also quite subjective. 

In a boom / bust economy, things like stability, pension and benefits are either desirable, or not so much. 

Sure, a 22 year old in the current job climate can afford to be a bit "picky", because there is a high demand for workers, even those with little or no skill. The economy will ebb and flow however, and some of those private sector employers may find that perks aren't easy to maintain, or offer quite as readily. 

I think the CAF does a poor job of promoting the fact that an unskilled worker ( PTE-R), will not only be trained at no cost, but will also be paid and fed while that occurs. Pay rates have grown substantially in the recent past, and qualified candidates are certainly offered compensation that is competitive. 

We're likely going to see a shift to candidates coming in the way they used to...from rural areas, and those who don't have the opportunities available to them either due to geography, or economic circumstance.


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## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2022)

btrudy said:


> Congratulations. You and people like you are the reason we're bleeding personnel.
> 
> It's like some people forget that loyalty is a two-way street. If we want people to stick around, we need to make it worth their while. Berating them about how "IT"S PART OF THE GIG WHY DID YOU SIGN UP" when they express displeasure about aspects of the job which are destroying their finances, relationships, etc will result in "You're right, why the hell did I sign up, I'm out of here".
> 
> ...


If you took Weinie’s post as a Four Yorkshiremen suck-it-up thing, I think you missed his point.  The major takeaways should have been ‘informed decision making’ on the part of the prospective member and the CAF’s responsibility to properly inform said prospects while working to address the institutional issues that, for many people who have both served and worked privately, aren’t limited to military service alone.


----------



## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

FJAG said:


> I think you can add to that the two-earner family factor. If I'm reading these stats right Canada has around two million couple families where only one member is a wage earner and 5 million couple families where both members are wage earners. That shows just how important having a second wage earner is to a family and how much stability for them in their employment is to their lives. Note particulalry how much higher the median income is for double earner families - nearly three times for male single earner families and nearly four times for female single earner families.
> 
> Our bases are generally not conducive to jobs (especially well paying jobs) for the spouse wage earner. That earning loss really becomes a factor as children come along as the member's career progresses.
> 
> ...


I think that ties well to the geography component, as well as (correct me if I'm wrong) another issue of being both officer (and senior officer) heavy.

Would I be wrong in the assumption that #'s issue isn't in having enough officers and warrants willing to "play the game" that comes with having a military career, but with having enough other ranks to fill the remainder of the positions?

If I'm correct, then wouldn't the approach be to provide stability to those other ranks?  I don't know how feasible it is, but if we/you could make every effort to reduce non-volunteer posting below WO it could make for a very attractive, stable, 8-13(?) year job option for people.  Still have exercises,  potential for deployment, maybe the odd short course, but (danger aside) that's little different than people that travel for work sometimes.

And in terms of geography- up the number of RegF opportunities for those now stable jobs in Southwestern Ontario/ Golden Horseshoe. 10 million people. Obviously certain things (Navy on the coast, Cold and Bagotville, Wainwright) need to be where they are in Canada, but certain things don't need to. Put them where people are.


----------



## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Dana381 said:


> A general feeling our military is inept and underfunded. While this is true to some degree the opinion is much worse then reality I believe. This is also largely the fault of the media. The only news surrounding the CAF they will "print" is negative. During Afghanistan they criticized the CAF for not having the right equipment to protect the soldiers, equipment they made it impossible for the CAF to purchase, tanks with A/C for example. In the 90's buying new tanks would have been political suicide.


Yes.  And now, people are talking about the Afghan era as when we got everything we wanted.  

From reading various posts, people (even in the CAF) treat it like a monolith.

Sure, some parts are inept and underfunded, but the Cpl's view of their Army combat arms unit's issues doesn't necessarily translate into an Air Force project or a Navy training establishment.

I understand that the articles have a max word count so they tend to condense (and maybe oversimplify) things, but the nuance gets missed.  And that may skew the reader's opinions on the subject.




IKnowNothing said:


> And in terms of geography- up the number of RegF opportunities for those now stable jobs in Southwestern Ontario/ Golden Horseshoe. 10 million people.


Hmm, if CFB/ASU London didn't get essentially demolished...  

Although you'd just hear more people complaining about housing prices in SW ON.  Houses 30 min north of London are going for $1.5m


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Hmm, if CFB/ASU London didn't get essentially demolished...
> 
> Although you'd just hear more people complaining about housing prices in SW ON.  Houses 30 min north of London are going for $1.5m


Honestly I was thinking more about Borden/Meaford.  Living in Grey I know we've had the price shock over the last 2-3 years but it's not quite as bad yet.  And moving _within_ SW Ontario is not the same thing as moving to Petewawa, or Gagetown, or Edmonton.  The whole point would be to recruit people already living in SW Ontario to fill stable SW Ontario positions, leaving those willing/wanting to be elsewhere to be elsewhere.  So the people that would be dealing with those housing prices already are.


----------



## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Honestly I was thinking more about Borden/Meaford.  Living in Grey I know we've had the price shock over the last 2-3 years but it's not quite as bad yet.  And moving _within_ SW Ontario is not the same thing as moving to Petewawa, or Gagetown, or Edmonton.  The whole point would be to recruit people already living in SW Ontario to fill stable SW Ontario positions, leaving those willing/wanting to be elsewhere to be elsewhere.  So the people that would be dealing with those housing prices already are.



However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting. 

Speaking from the area...the sticker shock is rolling up through the Ottawa Valley as well. Yes, Pet is still affordable ( relatively), but being within 2 hours of Ottawa.....its getting there.


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting.


For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.

For others, maybe not.  

As an aside, I've mentioned this before but the Australians keep their Army and Air Force bases within their cities.  They have vast training areas but like MR, they truck/train/airlift everything there for that time, then they go home.  

I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same?  Or, keep the equipment out in Gagetown/Wainwright/etc but have the people in Edmonton/Calgary/London/etc?  For daily maintenance, have a rotation of crews out there from the closest base do the work (like a 1-month TD or so).


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## OldSolduer (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.
> 
> For others, maybe not.
> 
> ...


When we still used M113s we sent them by rail to Wainwright, Suffield etc. When we would go on ex in Shilo we would drive everything we could. I think the TUAs were flatbedded to Shilo as were the CP M577s.


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> However, the CAF is quite unlike a lot of employers, *where support actually needs to be with, or at least adjacent to the units it's supporting.*
> 
> Speaking from the area...the sticker shock is rolling up through the Ottawa Valley as well. Yes, Pet is still affordable ( relatively), but being within 2 hours of Ottawa.....its getting there.


Like 2RCR being in Gagetown?  Borden to Pet is a hell of a lot closer than Gagetown to Pet.

Son was restless so I had some rocking chair time in the night, I was thinking that if the Asymmetrical Army proposal goes through and 2CMBG drops the "M" and gets 2RCR back from Gagetown, why couldn't a Bn plus attachments be relocated to Borden/Meaford.  Strip it down to a cadre (to get the units remaining in Pet to authorized strength) and recruit amongst 31,32, and 33 CBG to bring it back to strength.  When the SHORAD project delivers and another battery needs stood up, recruit in SW Ontario, etc.


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## Quirky (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'm not Army so I don't know how often one needs to keep current driving a tank or a LAV, but can we not do the same?


We can do a lot of things like that, including basing our Air Force in major airports like Edmonton or Calgary and deploying to FOBs like Cold lake or Comox for a few weeks. The political will to spend for such things isn't there. Plus the locals don't like loud noises from aircraft or scary people in military uniforms running around their cities.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> For some things like first-line maintenance, sure.
> 
> For others, maybe not.
> 
> ...



This is a feature of most European armies as well.

In North America we seem to be fine condemning our troops to life as an internal exile, not unlike Siberia for some


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## OldSolduer (29 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> This is a feature of most European armies as well.
> 
> In North America we seem to be fine condemning our troops to life as an internal exile, not unlike Siberia for some


Wainwright I liked. Gagetown not so much.

I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.


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## Underway (29 Apr 2022)

There are still a number of "urban" bases within easy driving distance of major centres.  Halifax, Esquimalt, Shearwater, Gagetown (that might be a stretch), Borden, Quebec City, Valcartier, Ottawa (counts as, because of the plethora of jobs in the city).

Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's?  Do the Van Doo's have higher retention than the PPCLI because of their "urban" bases?  Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?


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## Quirky (29 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake.



There are people who like cold lake (crazy I know). I know a lot of people who have been there for 15+ years and don't want to leave as it's their first posting. There are enough units and positions where they can bounce around the base for 25 years then get a civy job with L3. Ironically enough, there aren't too many openings for Snr NCMs as the ones there don't want to leave for family reasons. I'd consider going back as I found the job very rewarding and interesting, if it wasn't for my wife hating it there and losing her extremely well paying job now.


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## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Like 2RCR being in Gagetown? Borden to Pet is a hell of a lot closer than Gagetown to Pet.
> 
> Son was restless so I had some rocking chair time in the night, I was thinking that if the Asymmetrical Army proposal goes through and 2CMBG drops the "M" and gets 2RCR back from Gagetown, why couldn't a Bn plus attachments be relocated to Borden/Meaford. Strip it down to a cadre (to get the units remaining in Pet to authorized strength) and recruit amongst 31,32, and 33 CBG to bring it back to strength. When the SHORAD project delivers and another battery needs stood up, recruit in SW Ontario, etc.


All good if the mandate is to only deliver a functional Army unit. However the ability to have a defense presence other than Central Canada I'm sure is a factor as well.


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## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.


The only good part to being in Butt F7%K nowhere, is the Butt F7%king....


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.


Having techs on 10-year contracts and not posting them out despite repeated requests, so they quit?  



Underway said:


> Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's?


I'd say so.  If your spouse has pretty much zero prospects for employment outside of the Canex or MLMs (or fully remote work), AND it's in the middle of nowhere, it would be a problem for retention.



Underway said:


> Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?


I guess, but then it has the housing cost problem.  I'm not sure what is worse.


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## Underway (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> I guess, but then it has the housing cost problem.  I'm not sure what is worse.


So damned if you do and damned if you don't? Has our complaining become reflexive?

I pointed out a lot of urban bases that don't seem to have better retention numbers than rural bases.  I don't think bases are the problem, I think we have structural issues and other problems that are far more pressing than where the bases are.  Particularly now that former rural bases are becoming more urban as cities expand outwards.


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## mariomike (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Unrealistic career expectations aren't unique to the CAF.  I partially blame recruiting, but in the desire to make a job seem fulfilling, exciting, glamorous, etc., they fail to mention the a lot of the realities.



Know what you are getting into. "That wasn't in the brochure!"


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Underway said:


> So damned if you do and damned if you don't? Has our complaining become reflexive?
> 
> I pointed out a lot of urban bases that don't seem to have better retention numbers than rural bases.  I don't think bases are the problem, I think we have structural issues and other problems that are far more pressing than where the bases are.  Particularly now that former rural bases are becoming more urban as cities expand outwards.


Sure, but the trend in demographics (both cultural and age) would suggest that the status quo is not a viable situation. 

We should definitely improve the other problems, but I'd say basing location isn't something to drop due to sunk cost.  This will definitely influence the number of people coming through the door to CFRC.

If you tell an 18-year old from Vancouver or Toronto that they're living in Gagetown or Shilo, even if you had the best culture possible they'd probably laugh in your face and leave.


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

Underway said:


> There are still a number of "urban" bases within easy driving distance of major centres.  Halifax, Esquimalt, Shearwater, Gagetown (that might be a stretch), Borden, Quebec City, Valcartier, Ottawa (counts as, because of the plethora of jobs in the city).
> 
> Is retention higher in those locations than in the Cold Lakes or Shilo's?  Do the Van Doo's have higher retention than the PPCLI because of their "urban" bases?  Is the Navy just laughing its way past these problems because all of its major bases are located in the middle of cities?



Personally I wasn't talking about rural/urban as the geographical issue, moreso the simple proximity to "home."  The vast majority of the Quebec population is within 3 hours of Valcartier.  What percentage of Ontarians are within 3 hours of Pet?

CAF is short 10k, how many could be filled if the applicable % of 10m people had the option to serve without the guarantee of being posted no where near their friends and family


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## mariomike (29 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I don't know how the RCAF manages to staff Cold Lake. The middle of nowhere is just down the road from there.



My sister loved that posting so much she retired there.

The military turned her from a hard pavement case into a real countrywoman.

Sometimes, you have to give new places and people a chance. You'll get that in the CAF. 
Not all jobs offer a change of scenery. Sometimes, it does a person good.


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> Sometimes, you have to give new places and people a chance. You'll get that in the CAF.
> Not all jobs offer a change of scenery. Sometimes, it does a person good.


You can do both.  Have someone posted near friends/family but have long-ish TDs (a month or two, maybe longer).


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## daftandbarmy (29 Apr 2022)

mariomike said:


> My sister loved that posting so much she retired there.
> 
> The military turned her from a hard pavement case into a real countrywoman.
> 
> ...



Sounds kind of like Stockholm syndrome


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## Quirky (29 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> CAF is short 10k, how many could be filled if the applicable % of 10m people had the option to serve without the guarantee of being posted no where near their friends and family



We are short way more than 10k.


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## btrudy (29 Apr 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> I think the survey is also quite subjective.
> 
> In a boom / bust economy, things like stability, pension and benefits are either desirable, or not so much.
> 
> ...


The problem with focusing on messaging like this is that it really only hits the recruitment side, but doesn't help us keep people once they're in.

Especially in a boom / bust cycle, what happens then is that we get a lot of people during the "bust" part of the cycle, we spend a lot of money to train them up, and then they all leave for people who'll pay better and won't force them to go bankrupt trying to live in Ottawa or Kingston or Victoria on a Cpl's salary once we swing back to the "boom" portion of the cycle.



IKnowNothing said:


> Personally I wasn't talking about rural/urban as the geographical issue, moreso the simple proximity to "home."  The vast majority of the Quebec population is within 3 hours of Valcartier.  What percentage of Ontarians are within 3 hours of Pet?
> 
> CAF is short 10k, how many could be filled if the applicable % of 10m people had the option to serve without the guarantee of being posted no where near their friends and family


I do like this approach, although implementation would require a bit basically spreading people thinner. A larger number of smaller bases scattered around.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Apr 2022)

Then there's this 'Elephant in the Room', of course


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## Bluebulldog (29 Apr 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Then there's this 'Elephant in the Room', of course


Not wrong...


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

Quirky said:


> We are short way more than 10k.


I suppose a January article is 4 months out of date now, and it did say "more than 10k"... my bad


btrudy said:


> I do like this approach, although implementation would require a bit basically spreading people thinner. *A larger number of smaller bases scattered* around.


Not even.

Make more even use of the bases that already exist
balance need for training space against background population to redistribute units (in a functional manner) to have more opportunities close to people
lengthen the time that someone can serve without being posted out
run subordinate regionalized recruiting campaigns based on regional needs
Career members willing to live the military life and post throughout the country are still going to be the backbone of the CAF,  but would it be so terrible to enable more Canadians to be the meat on those bones in a manner that they are willing?


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## Brad Sallows (29 Apr 2022)

CAF is too small to be spreading stuff around.  A three-brigade army only needs about 3 bases.  Our navy only needs 1 major port on each coast.  Air force - 3?  Maybe add a few (very few) more establishments as training centres, including Res F support.  Those numbers will be stretched (stuff will be parceled out) to suit political exigencies, but it's a starting point.

Cost of housing outweighs "I'd like to live closer to X".  The people who say that are unlikely to have other employment prospects that would allow them to live closer to "X" anyways.  Best we can hope for is outskirts of cities and major metropolitan areas.  Some stuff has to be well away from populated areas.  These days, people will move in next to a railway and bitch about the noise.


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Air force - 3?


Not if we want to maintain SAR posture. 



Brad Sallows said:


> These days, people will move in next to a railway and bitch about the noise.


That's not a new thing.  Ask anyone who has had to field angry phone calls to Wing Ops about aircraft noise, when the airport has been there longer than most of those houses.


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Cost of housing outweighs "I'd like to live closer to X".  *The people who say that are unlikely to have other employment prospects that would allow them to live closer to "X" anyways.*  Best we can hope for is outskirts of cities and major metropolitan areas.  Some stuff has to be well away from populated areas.  These days, people will move in next to a railway and bitch about the noise.


The currently employed, currently living in Southwestern Ontario population of Southwestern Ontario that have no desire to move out East, or to the Prairies, despite the clearly beneficial Delta in cost of housing begs to differ.  

25-30% of the Canadian population already lives in X.


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## Brad Sallows (29 Apr 2022)

So we lost the British mantra of "join, see the world" and substituted "join, see more of your own backyard".  Can't even manage "join, see more of your own country".


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## IKnowNothing (29 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So we lost the British mantra of "join, see the world" and substituted "join, see more of your own backyard".  Can't even manage "join, see more of your own country".



 "See the world/country"  =/= "move to Petawawa, seeing family and friends is reserved for special occasions"


> Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford


People from the GTA are flocking to Dundalk of all places


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## Halifax Tar (29 Apr 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> So we lost the British mantra of "join, see the world" and substituted "join, see more of your own backyard".  Can't even manage "join, see more of your own country".



Travel and deployments are one thing.  

Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another. 

We need to recruit for the time period we're in not the one that it used to be.  Adapt or die mon ami.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Not if we want to maintain SAR posture.



Which can be contracted out.... just sayin'


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## dapaterson (29 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.


I'll agree with two of three; Quebec City is magnificent.


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## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.


Haven't been to Meaford itself in many decades, but friends from GTA moved to Collingwood (30 min drive away).  From what I can tell they really like it.

And I'll agree with @dapaterson about Quebec City.  It is amazing - yes you have to learn French, but is that really all that different than a first-generation immigrant* coming from a country where English/French aren't first languages?   

* My parents had to improve their English pretty drastically when they moved to Canada


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## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> The issue is that the CAF sold itself for years as a career with a pension as a carrot. With new demographic for whom a long career or a pension is not what drives them, we’re not attracting as many people as we could. We need to market ourselves in many different ways to appeal for many different types of people, not just those that want a full 25-year career.  Once people are in, we need progressively better incentives to keep them in.


Even reverting back to 20 year immediate annuity would be an improvement. The 25-year change was even then a day late and a dollar short for a trend well passed. ADM(HR)Mil/CMP for the un-win…


----------



## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Even reverting back to 20 year immediate annuity would be an improvement. The 25-year change was even then a day late and a dollar short for a trend well passed. ADM(HR)Mil/CMP for the un-win…


Why was it changed to 25?


----------



## dapaterson (29 Apr 2022)

(A) Retention

(B) Cost

(C) Both


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> (A) Retention
> 
> (B) Cost
> 
> (C) Both


A) statistically proven to have failed

B) false savings trying spread out service-life cycle pers costs at unrealistically low assumed release rates…only ‘saving grace’ is that because the CAF is >10% short, there are unintended cost savings with not having a large as force as is required

C) yup, double-barreled miss…


----------



## Blackadder1916 (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Why was it changed to 25?



If you can believe . . .

From the Minister (actually, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence)





						Debates (Hansard) No. 128 - September 26, 2003 (37-2) - House of Commons of Canada
					

Debates (Hansard) No. 128 - September 26, 2003 (37-2) - House of Commons of Canada



					www.ourcommons.ca
				




From DGCB





						Evidence - NDVA (37-2) - No. 37 - House of Commons of Canada
					

Evidence - NDVA (37-2) - No. 37 - House of Commons of Canada



					www.ourcommons.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Apr 2022)

> Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.



Close out the older, less-used locations, then.  Don't assume government will pay any price to put new facilities closer to where people would like to live, though.

There are still probably enough people willing to put up with what some people are complaining about.  The CAF would have to grow a heckuva lot to change that.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Apr 2022)

Training areas in Shilo, Suffield and Wainwright need people to run them. Therefore someone will need to live there.


----------



## Halifax Tar (29 Apr 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Training areas in Shilo, Suffield and Wainwright need people to run them. Therefore someone will need to live there.



Civilians ?


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> If you can believe . . .
> 
> From the Minister (actually, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence)
> 
> ...



“For example, some of the changes being proposed in this bill would For example, some of the changes being proposed in this bill would *shorten the period of time required to qualify for a pension benefit from 10 years to 2 years*, improve pension portability, provide greater flexibility for members of the forces in building their pension incomes by basing calculations on total pensionable service rather than on completing a precise term of engagement, offer entitlement to an immediate unreduced pension after 25 *[extended from 20]* years of service, and improve pension benefits for survivors. And a final but important point, the new bill would provide pension coverage for reservists.er flexibility for members of the forces in building their pension incomes by basing calculations on total pensionable service rather than on completing a precise term of engagement, offer entitlement to an immediate unreduced pension after 25 years of service, and improve pension benefits for survivors. And a final but important point, the new bill would provide pension coverage for reservists.”

Briefs well, especially this attractive nugget…

“…The chief actuary of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions estimated that the other changes contained in Bill C-37 *would not result in cost increases and might, in fact, result in modest savings*.”

…happens differently in real life.  How do you think the Department realizes ‘modest savings?’ Hint: give less pension benefits. 😉 


Blackadder1916 said:


> From DGCB
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See how well the then Project Director of Pension Modernization worked out for DND?


----------



## dimsum (29 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Civilians ?


That is basically how the Aussies do it, with a small team of ADF members.  Entire RAAF "base bases" (like our FOLs) up north with 2-3 members keeping the lights on if needed.

From what I understand, if you do those postings, you have the choice for your next one.


----------



## btrudy (29 Apr 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Civilians ?


Another alternative could be along the same lines, staff them primarily with a number of Class B reservists.

The primary benefit of both approaches being that everyone who ends up there will do so because they deliberately applied for a position there. They knew what they were getting into when they made the choice to go for the job. 

They're not just getting shafted by getting posted in the middle of nowhere, forced to chose between, for example, leaving their spouse behind or said spouse not being able to get work.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> See how well the then Project Director of Pension Modernization worked out for DND?


I have all the feels.


----------



## lenaitch (29 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Sure, but the trend in demographics (both cultural and age) would suggest that the status quo is not a viable situation.
> 
> We should definitely improve the other problems, but I'd say basing location isn't something to drop due to sunk cost.  This will definitely influence the number of people coming through the door to CFRC.
> 
> If you tell an 18-year old from Vancouver or Toronto that they're living in Gagetown or Shilo, even if you had the best culture possible they'd probably laugh in your face and leave.


I would suggest that if you tell a lot of 18-year old Torontonians that they would have to move pretty much anywhere you'd get much the same reaction.

I suppose you could turn Borden into a garrison but the locals would complain about all the bangy-boomy stuff, because a lot of the locals are former city folks.

If they create bases near urban areas where people seem to want to live, but people have to continually deploy to the boonies for training or operational needs, are you trading living in a place you don't like for living in a place you do, but are never there? 


Halifax Tar said:


> Travel and deployments are one thing.
> 
> Stationing people in god foresaken places like Meaford, Quebec or Shilo is another.
> 
> We need to recruit for the time period we're in not the one that it used to be.  Adapt or die mon ami.


I guess you  have to separate the condition of the facilities (or what goes on there) from the vicinity.  Calling the Meaford area "god-forsaken" seems to fly in the face of the number of people moving there and the resultant rise in housing costs.

It's highly subject.  Where is not considered 'god-forsaken'?  Anywhere near a population centre is going to suffer from costs to create and maintain, costs to live, and distance to training areas.


----------



## Furniture (29 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I guess you  have to separate the condition of the facilities (or what goes on there) from the vicinity.  *Calling the Meaford area "god-forsaken" seems to fly in the face of the number of people moving there and the resultant rise in housing costs.*
> 
> It's highly subject.  Where is not considered 'god-forsaken'?  Anywhere near a population centre is going to suffer from costs to create and maintain, costs to live, and distance to training areas.


Who is moving there, 18 year old's, or 55 year old's who sold a house in Toronto and want a slower pace of life? 

We need to find a way to make being in less "boring" for city folks, or we we be stuck recruiting from a dwindling pool of undesirable white males looking for work.


----------



## lenaitch (29 Apr 2022)

Furniture said:


> Who is moving there, 18 year old's, or 55 year old's who sold a house in Toronto and want a slower pace of life?
> 
> We need to find a way to make being in less "boring" for city folks, or we we be stuck recruiting from a dwindling pool of undesirable white males looking for work.


You're right, it does skew older.  I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city.   I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.


----------



## FSTO (30 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I'll agree with two of three; Quebec City is magnificent.


Being from SW Manitoba I’m sending a big middle finger to all you pussies! If you love the concrete jungle the it’s not for you but the hunting, camping, and fishing is off the charts.

I’m 2 scotches, a G&T and a beer into the evening.


----------



## Furniture (30 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You're right, it does skew older.  I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city.   I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure


Bear in mind that crappy little podunk towns like Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec, Halifax, Victoria, Ottawa, etc.. exist outside the three main urban areas as well. 

There is a world of difference between Edmonton, and Oromocto when it comes to employment opportunities for a spouse. The Ontario idea of a "small town" like Belleville with 50K population, is different than the second largest population center in MB, which is Brandon at 51K...


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You're right, it does skew older.  I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city.   I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.



In the UK most people could get home on a weekend if they wanted to from most bases, usually by train, which helped make life a little less of a PITA.

However if you lived in the south, and were posted to Scotland, it made things a little more challenging. I recall an intrepid band of 'family men' from the Marines regularly departing Arbroath Friday afternoon to get to Plymouth by oh dark hundred that night, then being back by first parade Monday.

it's about a 9+hour one way drive. Pretty normal for Canadians, and a Homerian epic for the British 









						Arbroath to Plymouth
					






					www.google.com


----------



## Maxman1 (30 Apr 2022)

Quirky said:


> So we still have 42%, 43% and 39% who ARE interested. Those are good numbers.
> 
> Now do police, firefighters, airline pilots and truck drivers as a comparison.


----------



## dimsum (30 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> If they create bases near urban areas where people seem to want to live, but people have to continually deploy to the boonies for training or operational needs, are you trading living in a place you don't like for living in a place you do, but are never there?


Given that a major dissatisfier is that members' spouses do not have gainful employment, then I would 100% support living in a good place for their employment/schooling/family life, and you travelling.

Given the op tempo for some RCAF fleets, right now they're not in urban areas AND they're frequently deployed.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Apr 2022)

Yeah, not gonna happen.  Who has a louder voice, DND or the voters in the NIMBYhood?

(Hint: think of RCAF Station Downsview and its F-86 and CF-100 fighter jets)


----------



## IKnowNothing (30 Apr 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You're right, it does skew older.  I'm just not too sure how you attract, in terms of lifestyle, a significant segment of city kids, or kids who are desirous to live in urban area, unless you are actually located in a city.   I don't think all is lost - 2/3 of the population is still outside of the three main urban areas, but the urban migration is trending for sure.





Furniture said:


> Bear in mind that crappy little podunk towns like Edmonton, Calgary, Quebec, Halifax, Victoria, Ottawa, etc.. exist outside the three main urban areas as well.
> 
> There is a world of difference between Edmonton, and Oromocto when it comes to employment opportunities for a spouse. The Ontario idea of a "small town" like Belleville with 50K population, is different than the second largest population center in MB, which is Brandon at 51K...


Falling into the trap of associating Southern Ontario and the GTA.  Yes the GTA/Golden Horseshoe has the majority of the population, but that overshadows that the non-GH part of Southwestern Ontario is more than 2.5 million.  Higher than Manitoba and Saskatchewan combined, a lot of it Belleville type small towns, actual small towns, and rural, a lot of it skewing conservative.

Narrowing the view somewhat here to look at Meaford/Borden.  There's ~400k people living in rural Grey/Dufferin/Simcoe/Wellington, a lot of them people with multigenerational roots, strong family ties, no desire to leave, a manufacturing sector getting hammered and an agricultural sector going commercial/robotic.  Open the scope a little to include Barrie and Guelph and you're just shy of a million people.

I may completely off base here (and I'd love if anyone could point me in the direction of enlistment info that I could take a look at) but I get the feeling that Quebec and the Prairies punch above their weight in terms of proportional recruitment, and I'd hypothesize that being able to serve "at home" plays a part in that.


----------



## dimsum (30 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> completely off base here


Pun intended?   



IKnowNothing said:


> but I get the feeling that Quebec and the Prairies punch above their weight in terms of proportional recruitment, and I'd hypothesize that being able to serve "at home" plays a part in that.


Or because they want to GTFO from those areas.  Or jobs.


----------



## Booter (30 Apr 2022)

In the past decade, since we stopped in Afghanistan- what is the REAL thing that we are selling? There have been Ops and I’m not saying otherwise. 

But for the 80 thousand uniforms- what has been the “adventure” and getting to do your job part? 

Maybe I’m way out of ‘er. But we aren’t selling much beyond government service and a pension. Why would I leave home for that?


----------



## IKnowNothing (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> Pun intended?
> 
> 
> Or because they want to GTFO from those areas.  Or jobs.


That's why 1 CMBG has so many Westerner's, and 5 so many Quebecois?


----------



## dimsum (30 Apr 2022)

Booter said:


> In the past decade, since we stopped in Afghanistan- what is the REAL thing that we are selling? There have been Ops and I’m not saying otherwise.
> 
> But for the 80 thousand uniforms- what has been the “adventure” and getting to do your job part?
> 
> Maybe I’m way out of ‘er. But we aren’t selling much beyond government service and a pension. Why would I leave home for that?


That is a very Army-centric view.  I get it - the majority of the CAF is Army.

However, the RCN and RCAF haven't stopped travelling, if you think about it.  Some fleets are even more busy than before.  

So, I'd say the hard sea (and air) proportion, and the ones supporting them, have had the "adventure" boxes ticked off - I know I have.


----------



## kev994 (30 Apr 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I may completely off base here (and I'd love if anyone could point me in the direction of enlistment info that I could take a look at) but I get the feeling that Quebec and the Prairies punch above their weight in terms of proportional recruitment, and I'd hypothesize that being able to serve "at home" plays a part in that.


When I was at 435 the portion of the unit that grew up in the Winnipeg and surrounding area was astounding. Nobody in Winnipeg wants to go to Trenton and nobody in Trenton wants to go to Winnipeg.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Apr 2022)

kev994 said:


> When I was at 435 the portion of the unit that grew up in the Winnipeg and surrounding area was astounding. Nobody in Winnipeg wants to go to Trenton and nobody in Trenton wants to go to Winnipeg.


If the numbers work out, then that shouldn’t be a problem, should it @kev994?  I understood that the AMAG and SAR folks generally liked their own niches.


----------



## kev994 (30 Apr 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> If the numbers work out, then that shouldn’t be a problem, should it @kev994?  I understood that the AMAG and SAR folks generally liked their own niches.


That’s pretty much how they got there, it’s not a highly sought after place unless you’re from there, so the community pretty much jumps at the opportunity to send someone there who wants to go.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Apr 2022)

Booter said:


> In the past decade, since we stopped in Afghanistan- what is the REAL thing that we are selling? There have been Ops and I’m not saying otherwise.
> 
> But for the 80 thousand uniforms- what has been the “adventure” and getting to do your job part?
> 
> Maybe I’m way out of ‘er. But we aren’t selling much beyond government service and a pension. Why would I leave home for that?



Great sales programs enlist their employees in the effort, and equip them with the knowledge and tools required to attract/recruit people to the organization without any special help from HR etc.

The fact that you have to ask that question speaks volumes.

Everyone in the CAF should have access to current data that identifies what we are 'selling' (the product), to whom (the target audiences and their behaviour and preferences) and a range of other supporting information (pay, benefits, career opportunities, an authentic articulation of the challenges involved).

And then there's the reality that engaged employees are sometimes your best sales force:

Engage Your Employees and Boost Your Sales

Employee engagement is most commonly associated with employee motivation, increasing morale, aiding employees to give their best each day, and boosting productivity in the workplace. However, engaged employees also strengthen brand. They become brand advocates, helping to engage customers not because of process, but because of belief in the brand. This boosts sales. To achieve this, an organization must develop an internal comms strategy aimed at creating the culture in which employees are engaged with its brand.









						Engage your employees and boost your sales
					

Employee engagement is most commonly associated with employee motivation, increasing morale, aiding employees to give their best each day, and boosting productivity in the workplace. However, engaged employees also strengthen brand. They become brand advocates, helping to engage customers not...



					www.forwardfocusinc.com


----------



## FJAG (30 Apr 2022)

It would be an interesting experiment to have a unit in the GTA (let's say a cyber unit or a UAV unit or logistics unit - something that doesn't need vast training areas - maybe even something paired with a reserve unit) and recruit people in the GTA with a contract that expressly states that they will not be posted out of the unit or the GTA for the term of their contract. 

It may very well result in attracting people who already have a home and family in the area and do not wish to leave or people in other areas willing to move into the region.

It would be interesting to see how sustainable such a unit is. If it works that experiment can move to other urban areas.

🍻


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> That is a very Army-centric view.  I get it - the majority of the CAF is Army.
> 
> However, the RCN and RCAF haven't stopped travelling, if you think about it.  Some fleets are even more busy than before.
> 
> So, I'd say the hard sea (and air) proportion, and the ones supporting them, have had the "adventure" boxes ticked off - I know I have.


Current CAF operations have lacked focus for the most part or a real clear intent.  Contrast 2015 and after to before 2015.

Most current Navy Ops could be called Op COCKTAIL because pre-COVID, that's all that really happens.

A lot of issues with perception are very much down to the current Government and it's messaging WRT the CAF and what it wants.


----------



## Quirky (30 Apr 2022)

FJAG said:


> It would be an interesting experiment to have a unit in the GTA (let's say a cyber unit or a UAV unit or logistics unit - something that doesn't need vast training areas - maybe even something paired with a reserve unit) and recruit people in the GTA with a contract that expressly states that they will not be posted out of the unit or the GTA for the term of their contract.
> 
> It may very well result in attracting people who already have a home and family in the area and do not wish to leave or people in other areas willing to move into the region.
> 
> ...


How would that unit work with promotions and available positions? You'd need a promotion freeze in those units. Many postings are a result of members being promoted out of their unit/base because there isn't a position for them. That unit would need some sort of financial incentive, unless the members working there are okay with salary raises every 4-5 years based on inflation.


----------



## IKnowNothing (30 Apr 2022)

FJAG said:


> It would be an interesting experiment to have a unit in the GTA (let's say a cyber unit or a UAV unit or logistics unit - something that doesn't need vast training areas - maybe even something paired with a reserve unit) and recruit people in the GTA with a contract that expressly states that they will not be posted out of the unit or the GTA for the term of their contract.
> 
> *It may very well result in attracting people who already have a home and family in the area and do not wish to leave or people in other areas willing to move into the region.*
> 
> ...



What about using that contract to build a light battlegroup at Borden/Meaford? 
Move down elements of 4th division support group as well.
Build upon the bolded concept, augmented by the pre-existing pool of 31 & 32 CBG.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Current CAF operations have lacked focus for the most part or a real clear intent.  Contrast 2015 and after to before 2015.
> 
> Most current Navy Ops could be called Op COCKTAIL because pre-COVID, that's all that really happens.
> 
> A lot of issues with perception are very much down to the current Government and it's messaging WRT the CAF and what it wants.



I think for the Navy side we have to remember alot of the reasoning for our NATO and PAC Rim trips are diplomatic and showing the flag.  

Yes those cocktail parties arent full of glory and action but there is a fair about of commerce and diplomatic ties created or strengthened on those flight decks. 

The CAF is also an extremely Army centric organization.  We either change that or learn to use it and manipulate it.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Apr 2022)

If I had a dollar for every time a sailor claims sending a single clapped out unsafe sea frigate to a foreign port for a booze up on the flight deck is the underlying foundation of all Canadian foreign policy, I could pay for the CSC project with enough left over for the F35s.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Current CAF operations have lacked focus for the most part or a real clear intent.  Contrast 2015 and after to before 2015.
> 
> Most current Navy Ops could be called Op COCKTAIL because pre-COVID, that's all that really happens.
> 
> A lot of issues with perception are very much down to the current Government and it's messaging WRT the CAF and what it wants.



How about 'OP CONVENE'... that sounds on mission 

Joly rightly called Canada a convener, and it’s time to put her words into action​Foreign policy is not about transactional politics, but about advancing interests by maneuvering through the maze of international pushes and pulls. That maze has become increasingly complex.​








						Joly rightly called Canada a convener, and it's time to put her words into action
					

Foreign policy is not about transactional politics, but about advancing interests by maneuvering through the maze of international pushes and pulls. That maze has become increasingly complex.




					www.hilltimes.com


----------



## FSTO (30 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If I had a dollar for every time a sailor claims sending a single clapped out unsafe sea frigate to a foreign port for a booze up on the flight deck is the underlying foundation of all Canadian foreign policy, I could pay for the CSC project with enough left over for the F35s.


I think you're being somewhat over the top my good chap!

Hiccup!!1


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Apr 2022)

dapaterson said:


> If I had a dollar for every time a sailor claims sending a single clapped out unsafe sea frigate to a foreign port for a booze up on the flight deck is the underlying foundation of all Canadian foreign policy, I could pay for the CSC project with enough left over for the F35s.



You can be critical of it all you want.  I've been to more than one port that was at the direction/request of Foreign Affairs and not DND or the CAF. 

It's been a role of Navies since Jesus was an OD. 

As for the state of the ships, that's a whole other ball of nuts and bolts.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Apr 2022)

FSTO said:


> I think you're being somewhat over the top my good chap!
> 
> Hiccup!!1


Ok, maybe not the F35s as well


----------



## Booter (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> That is a very Army-centric view.  I get it - the majority of the CAF is Army.
> 
> However, the RCN and RCAF haven't stopped travelling, if you think about it.  Some fleets are even more busy than before.
> 
> So, I'd say the hard sea (and air) proportion, and the ones supporting them, have had the "adventure" boxes ticked off - I know I have.


Things are a higher tempo than when I was navy.

But I think we may be talking about two different things. Travel and adventure vs having a mission and doing work.

I suppose I am thinking of what was told about recruiting when we had a war, I’m not suggesting picking fights for recruiting but the appeal for some is to do the work.

I just took a took a look at the op sizes over the last few years. 15 here, couple hundred there.

Training missions. I do think my motivations are at odds with the reason those Canadians polled aren’t interested.

I think wanting a certain demographic is a luxury of a well staffed and agile organization…sooooooo

I’m also an outlier. I’ve had 11 physical moves, 5 provinces, international work, in 15 years.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Apr 2022)

Booter said:


> Things are a higher tempo than when I was navy.
> 
> But I think we may be talking about two different things. Travel and adventure vs having a mission and doing work.
> 
> ...


Yep, big difference in what we were up to a decade + ago vs what we are doing today.

15 years ago we had the CDS on TV talking about how "the Taliban were detestable scumbags and murderers and we were gonna kill em all".

Now members who participated in those operations are getting in trouble for their tattoos from said Ops.....



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/navy-infidel-tattoo-halifax-tweet-sailor-1.5206521
		


The mixed messaging and sudden arc change is what's causing the chaos 😉


----------



## MilEME09 (30 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Yep, big difference in what we were up to a decade + ago vs what we are doing today.
> 
> 15 years ago we had the CDS on TV talking about how "the Taliban were detestable scumbags and murderers and we were gonna kill em all".
> 
> ...


To me it's a lack of strategic priorities at the upper levels. By strategic, I mean I the business sense of setting long term goals, then using tactical (short term) planning to make it. Why we fall short on that is the high turn over rate we have unfortunately suffered in our most senior positions. As people change, so do their priorities, things get refocused, projects get priority, others are shelved. This constant Flux does us no favors in creating an image that portrays us as a desirable career choice.


----------



## kev994 (30 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> To me it's a lack of strategic priorities at the upper levels. By strategic, I mean I the business sense of setting long term goals, then using tactical (short term) planning to make it. Why we fall short on that is the high turn over rate we have unfortunately suffered in our most senior positions. As people change, so do their priorities, things get refocused, projects get priority, others are shelved. This constant Flux does us no favors in creating an image that portrays us as a desirable career choice.


Our promotion system doesn’t reward “laid the groundwork for someone else to accomplish something in 10 years…” and people will do exactly what you reward them for.


----------



## dimsum (30 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Now members who participated in those operations are getting in trouble for their tattoos from said Ops.....


That is not just us though.  US, UK, Australia, etc have had similar orders.



Halifax Tar said:


> I think for the Navy side we have to remember alot of the reasoning for our NATO and PAC Rim trips are diplomatic and showing the flag.


There is also the air side, which is less diplomatic (except for the party).  



FJAG said:


> It would be an interesting experiment to have a unit in the GTA (let's say a cyber unit or a UAV unit or logistics unit - something that doesn't need vast training areas - maybe even something paired with a reserve unit) and recruit people in the GTA with a contract that expressly states that they will not be posted out of the unit or the GTA for the term of their contract.


RPAS will have its operators all in the NCR.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> That is not just us though.  US, UK, Australia, etc have had similar orders.


Oh totally, I'm just saying the CAF shouldn't be surprised when you indoctrinate people a certain way and then completely try and shift their world view LOL.


----------



## MilEME09 (30 Apr 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Oh totally, I'm just saying the CAF shouldn't be surprised when you indoctrinate people a certain way and then completely try and shift their world view LOL.


Almost as if the mantra of our political class and our education system isn't preparing people for how the world actually is.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Almost as if the mantra of our political class and our education system isn't preparing people for how the world actually is.


Almost like social engineering never works as intended because.... people are inherently complex and unpredictable.


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Apr 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Almost as if the mantra of our political class and our education system isn't preparing people for how the world actually is.



Say it isn’t so!!!


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Apr 2022)

Today at Fleet weekend, the RCN did a damm fine job, although I think they were overwhelmed with the response. At 2:00pm the line to get onto HMCS Vancouver was this long


----------



## dimsum (30 Apr 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Today at Fleet weekend, the RCN did a damm fine job, although I think they were overwhelmed with the response. At 2:00pm the line to get onto HMCS Vancouver was this long


Was anyone complaining about that?


----------



## FJAG (30 Apr 2022)

Quirky said:


> How would that unit work with promotions and available positions? You'd need a promotion freeze in those units. Many postings are a result of members being promoted out of their unit/base because there isn't a position for them. That unit would need some sort of financial incentive, unless the members working there are okay with salary raises every 4-5 years based on inflation.


I'd say if the promotion is within the unit, then promote. If there is a promotion available outside the contract area then make an offer for the individual to take the promotion and move or alternatively stay where he/she is at and decline the promotion.

If I understand the RCMP individuals who are eligible for promotion bid for promotions in areas they desire. Not exactly the same but shows different ways of handling promotions than we do now.

🍻


----------



## FJAG (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> RPAS will have its operators all in the NCR.


Exactly. There are already tens of thousands of members in urban areas (see for example 1 CMBG which is chiefly in Edmonton). The concept here is to make service even more attractive for people who do not want to leave large S Ontario and Quebec urban areas like Toronto and Montreal.

🍻


----------



## MilEME09 (30 Apr 2022)

FJAG said:


> Exactly. There are already tens of thousands of members in urban areas (see for example 1 CMBG which is chiefly in Edmonton). The concept here is to make service even more attractive for people who do not want to leave large S Ontario and Quebec urban areas like Toronto and Montreal.
> 
> 🍻


I'm sure if CFB uplands was rebuilt, you would see a happier air force world, or other locations. Realistically though the CAF needs to increase quality of life on and around bases.

More entertainment, family friendly, better offsets for the cost of living, if the CAF wants people to stay, it is the CAF that needs to make people want to stay.


----------



## Ostrozac (30 Apr 2022)

dimsum said:


> RPAS will have its operators all in the NCR.


If they don’t first sort out PLD/compensation/housing in the NCR, there is a real chance that they won’t be building a capability, they’ll be building a release factory, particularly for all the JNCOs they will need. But to be fair, at the pace that RPAS is progressing, that may be a problem for the next century.


----------



## lenaitch (1 May 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> What about using that contract to build a light battlegroup at Borden/Meaford?
> Move down elements of 4th division support group as well.
> Build upon the bolded concept, augmented by the pre-existing pool of 31 & 32 CBG.


Be careful what you wish for.  Average house prices:

Barrie:  $942.8K
Angus:  $912.3K
Alliston:  $1Mn


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Was anyone complaining about that?


I didn't hear any complaints, most people were as shocked by the turnout as were the navy people. A lot of Asians were there. We were the only Cadet corp that showed up in uniform, don't know why the Sea Cadets weren't involved or at least there. going to arrange next year to have a recruiting booth as well. A few pic of pics


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I didn't hear any complaints, most people were as shocked by the turnout as were the navy people. A lot of Asians were there. We were the only Cadet corp that showed up in uniform, don't know why the Sea Cadets weren't involved or at least there. going to arrange next year to have a recruiting booth as well. A few pic of pics



That's awesome!  Might be worth while to looking at having the East Coast do that say in Toronto or Montreal or Quebec city. 

Granted schedules are pretty packed right now.


----------



## Gunplumber (1 May 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> If they don’t first sort out PLD/compensation/housing in the NCR, there is a real chance that they won’t be building a capability, they’ll be building a release factory, particularly for all the JNCOs they will need. But to be fair, at the pace that RPAS is progressing, that may be a problem for the next century.


Uplands has a few PMQs left. It is a big base so not hard to build more. They can replace the Single Quarters that they tore down easily. Why cant they just rebuild housing and keep PSP out of the loop so prices can stay cheap.  Presto, people ok with staying in a big city without the headaches. DND has the money!


----------



## dangerboy (1 May 2022)

Gunplumber said:


> Uplands has a few PMQs left. It is a big base so not hard to build more. They can replace the Single Quarters that they tore down easily. Why cant they just rebuild housing and keep PSP out of the loop so prices can stay cheap.  Presto, people ok with staying in a big city without the headaches. DND has the money!


From what I understand PSP has little control over the rent.  It is due to Treasury Board rules. 

In keeping with Treasury Board policies, the Agency must set rents for PMQs that are comparable to those in the housing market around the base, as determined by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CHMC). CMHC appraises the rental value of PMQs as if they were houses outside the base leased by private landlords, but since they are in such poor condition, their assessed value and thus the rents charged can be slightly less than for similar homes in better condition on the private market. Committee Report No. 3 - NDVA (36-1) - House of Commons of Canada


----------



## Gunplumber (1 May 2022)

dangerboy said:


> From what I understand PSP has little control over the rent.  It is due to Treasury Board rules.
> 
> In keeping with Treasury Board policies, the Agency must set rents for PMQs that are comparable to those in the housing market around the base, as determined by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CHMC). CMHC appraises the rental value of PMQs as if they were houses outside the base leased by private landlords, but since they are in such poor condition, their assessed value and thus the rents charged can be slightly less than for similar homes in better condition on the private market. Committee Report No. 3 - NDVA (36-1) - House of Commons of Canada


So we should tell the Treasury Board to F off or we will bleed people off until there are no one left in the military.  Or pay everyone a politicians salary then it will be fine. Why is it that there are always impediments in the way of getting ahead? Its like the elites dont give a flying f*ck about the rest....


----------



## Booter (1 May 2022)

Gunplumber said:


> So we should tell the Treasury Board to F off or we will bleed people off until there are no one left in the military.  Or pay everyone a politicians salary then it will be fine. Why is it that there are always impediments in the way of getting ahead? Its like the elites dont give a flying f*ck about the rest....


Good luck- if you figure it out let me know so we can ape your lol. We have places without running potable water that the members still pay rent for government owned housing. Of course no one will go so some of those houses are empty.

Thanks treasury board!

I got a fairly substantial increase one year because I was reassessed because of the “ocean view” that you could see two months a year…through the hole in my house from being attacked at night with an axe.


----------



## lenaitch (1 May 2022)

If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.


----------



## dimsum (1 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's awesome! Might be worth while to looking at having the East Coast do that say in Toronto or Montreal or Quebec city.


Is the Great Lakes Deployment not a thing anymore?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I didn't hear any complaints, most people were as shocked by the turnout as were the navy people. A lot of Asians were there. We were the only Cadet corp that showed up in uniform, don't know why the Sea Cadets weren't involved or at least there. going to arrange next year to have a recruiting booth as well. A few pic of pics


So, Canadians actually are interested in the CAF. And in large numbers. That was Vancouver- supposedly the most military unfriendly  place in Canada….


----------



## Booter (1 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.


The whole machinery of these things makes them require large changes by multiple levels and orgs to have changes to these treasury board tied things- I don’t think there is a will to do those things. 

I chimed in on the rent/pld treasury board thing because it was something the RCMPs association had tried to start to deal with,


----------



## btrudy (1 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.



That is of course still better than actually charging market rates, because then the member only ends up paying the taxes on that amount, rather than the full amount. So about 40% of the difference (depending upon your income bracket).


----------



## Quirky (1 May 2022)

Those ideas are all great but would require the TB to actually give a f*ck.


----------



## Halifax Tar (1 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Is the Great Lakes Deployment not a thing anymore?



I'm thinking a GLD with multiple ships... Like a Toronto fleet week.  Maybe invite some allied nations.


----------



## Ostrozac (1 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> If rents were below market value, the CRA would considered them to be subsidized by the employer and the difference would show up as a taxable benefit on your paystub.


For whatever reason, we are allowed to have national rates for single quarters. So one possible solution is vast numbers of brand new single quarters, built to the new accommodation standard, and a CAF workforce that is almost entirely either single or on IR. This allows families to buy houses, seek spousal employment, and put down roots anywhere they want, and children can go to the same school without having to move every few years. And cuts down on the expense of cost moves. Basically, the model used by mines and the oil patch. This model is also used widely by the British Army, the UK having the advantage of England being the exact same size as the Maritimes and weekend commuting being very easy. 

It has the disadvantage that service members will almost never see their families. It does have the advantage of being within Treasury Board policy.


----------



## MilEME09 (1 May 2022)

dangerboy said:


> From what I understand PSP has little control over the rent.  It is due to Treasury Board rules.
> 
> In keeping with Treasury Board policies, the Agency must set rents for PMQs that are comparable to those in the housing market around the base, as determined by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CHMC). CMHC appraises the rental value of PMQs as if they were houses outside the base leased by private landlords, but since they are in such poor condition, their assessed value and thus the rents charged can be slightly less than for similar homes in better condition on the private market. Committee Report No. 3 - NDVA (36-1) - House of Commons of Canada


This makes no sense to me, it's not like base housing and PMQs are being rented to anyone so why should it be tied to the local economy? They should be a flat rate for the department, that's it. Point is to house our troops, not make money off them. We should build more condo/ apartment style buildings on bases as single/couples quarters, and row style Town houses as PMQs. Most bases have tons of space to do it, and easily house an entire bases population, and nor have to charge an arm and a leg.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (1 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> This makes no sense to me, it's not like base housing and PMQs are being rented to anyone so* why should it be tied to the local economy*? They should be a flat rate for the department, that's it. Point is to house our troops, not make money off them. We should build more condo/ apartment style buildings on bases as single/couples quarters, and row style Town houses as PMQs. Most bases have tons of space to do it, and easily house an entire bases population, and nor have to charge an arm and a leg.



The simple explanation is "because the rules say so".






						Part VI - Government Housing
					






					www.njc-cnm.gc.ca
				





> 6.1.3 It is the policy of the government that occupants of government housing be accorded treatment equivalent to that accorded to persons renting similar accommodation from private or commercial sources. Rents for government housing must be fair and equitable and be based on the following principles:
> 
> *they should not form part of an employee's compensation*; and
> they should reflect any factors which affect the quiet enjoyment or the privacy of the occupant and thus the value of the accommodation.



That "not form part of an employee's compensation" follows on from the Income Tax Act which says;



> Employer-provided housing subsidies
> 
> (23) For greater certainty, an amount paid or *the value of assistance* provided by any person in respect of, in the course of or because of, an individual’s office or employment in respect of the cost of, the financing of, the use of or the right to use, a residence *is, for the purposes of this section, a benefit received by the individual because of the office or employment.*



There are costs to providing housing (whether family housing or single quarters) and I doubt that the department "makes money" from it.  Granted, a lot of the housing stock is still likely crap and while the consolidation of all PMQs under a single agency probably contributes to a sense of profiteering, the expense of providing that service was mostly hidden (masked?) when PMQ operations were decentralized to the base level.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

The only CAF group immediately eligible for housing relief under current federal income tax rules would be padres.






						Clergy residence - Canada.ca
					

Taxable Benefits; Board and Lodging; Housing; Clergy residence deduction;




					www.canada.ca


----------



## kev994 (1 May 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> For whatever reason, we are allowed to have national rates for single quarters. So one possible solution is vast numbers of brand new single quarters, built to the new accommodation standard, and a CAF workforce that is almost entirely either single or on IR. This allows families to buy houses, seek spousal employment, and put down roots anywhere they want, and children can go to the same school without having to move every few years. And cuts down on the expense of cost moves. Basically, the model used by mines and the oil patch. This model is also used widely by the British Army, the UK having the advantage of England being the exact same size as the Maritimes and weekend commuting being very easy.
> 
> It has the disadvantage that service members will almost never see their families. It does have the advantage of being within Treasury Board policy.


I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.


----------



## MilEME09 (1 May 2022)

kev994 said:


> I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.


It's a case of policy not matching reality


----------



## rmc_wannabe (1 May 2022)

kev994 said:


> I don’t think the ‘abandon your family’ COA is going to be very good for morale.


Or recruitment, retention, job satisfaction, marriages, or PR


----------



## Ostrozac (1 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> It's a case of policy not matching reality


As an organization we’ve been unsuccessfully lobbying Treasury Board about PLD for well over ten years, under both Conservative and Liberal governments. With nothing to show for the effort. At some point we have to stop tilting at windmills and design something that works within policy.


----------



## btrudy (1 May 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> As an organization we’ve been unsuccessfully lobbying Treasury Board about PLD for well over ten years, under both Conservative and Liberal governments. With nothing to show for the effort. At some point we have to stop tilting at windmills and design something that works within policy.



This is the crux of the issue. 

The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.

The military is largely unwilling to do things to fix retention that actually change the way we go about doing our business. 

Between those two restrictions, we're largely left with anemic half-measures that don't really do much.


----------



## FJAG (1 May 2022)

Blackadder1916 said:


> ...That "not form part of an employee's compensation" follows on from the Income Tax Act which says;
> 
> Employer-provided housing subsidies
> 
> (23) For greater certainty, an amount paid or *the value of assistance* provided by any person in respect of, in the course of or because of, an individual’s office or employment in respect of the cost of, the financing of, the use of or the right to use, a residence *is, for the purposes of this section, a benefit received by the individual because of the office or employment.*


All of which can be taken care of with one sentence being added.



> This section does not apply residences being provided by the Government of Canada to members of the Canadian Armed Forces.



Where there is a will ...

🍻


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

Why?  Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?

Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or  SAR tech.


----------



## Booter (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Why?  Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?
> 
> Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or  SAR tech.


Doesn’t that create the issue where no one will take the posting again since they can be a major somewhere and have more money in their pocket, it reduces the incentive to serve across Canada. 

No one thing is going to fix the forces. I feel like we always search for a magic bullet. Some easy out. “Money” “missions!” “Material” but it’s more a mix of small things.

I would suggest two scotch’s in that the issue is that no one in government cares because to Canadians it’s good enough to have the fiction of function.

And because no one cares- all the other issues facing the CF exists. Actually being symptoms of “meh”


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> This is the crux of the issue.
> 
> The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, did you say TDBGs? 






						600 reservists of the Montreal Territorial Battalion Group to train in Laval from January 22 to 24, 2016 - Canada.ca
					

Exercise QUORUM NORDIQUE 2016 (Ex QN 16) is urban winter warfare training involving 600 reservists of the Montreal Territorial Battalion Group from January 22 to 24, 2016. The exercise will take place in an urban setting, in Laval, Quebec.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

Explain to Canadian taxpayers why a CAF member earning in the top 10% of incomes (before accounting for spousal income) needs subsidized housing.

Any CAF measures to address housing costs must be means tested.  And since the central gatekeepers for the CAF are those who'd not benefit from such restrictions, the circle will never be squared.


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Why?  Should a Maj paid in excess of $100K get subsidized housing?
> 
> Means testing might be unpopular, but there's no valid reason to treat a Pte 3 the same as a senior officer, or the same as a SOF Op or  SAR tech.


One difference between a military family (with a civilian spouse) and a civilian family is that our spouses are forced to leave their jobs as we are posted, significantly reducing a family’s income.  With the daycare crisis in the country, some spouse aren’t able to work for sometimes a fairly long time.  Yes, a Major making 120K a year is doing well.  But when their spouse, who made often more than 50-60K a year, stops working to care for kids because they are posted, the family suddenly makes less than a service couple of two corporals.  With that in mind, subsidized housing should be available to all CAF members, NCMs and Officers.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

And that is why nothing will change.  Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.

After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time).  After getting paid career training.  After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO).  Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And that is why nothing will change.  Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.
> 
> After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time).  After getting paid career training.  After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO).  Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.


Perhaps not but at least make it based on family income.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> One difference between a military family (with a civilian spouse) and a civilian family is that our spouses are forced to leave their jobs as we are posted, significantly reducing a family’s income.  With the daycare crisis in the country, some spouse aren’t able to work for sometimes a fairly long time.  Yes, a Major making 120K a year is doing well.  But when their spouse, who made often more than 50-60K a year, stops working to care for kids because they are posted, the family suddenly makes less than a service couple of two corporals.  With that in mind, subsidized housing should be available to all CAF members, NCMs and Officers.



Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another. 

Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.

Also, they aren't in government jobs that are pretty much guaranteed for life with excellent pay, a juicy family healthcare/ benefits package and a gold plated pension at the end.

Just sayin'...


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another.
> 
> Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.
> 
> ...


They are not forced to move. They refuse to move and they’ll probably stall their career but they’ll keep their job. And they can talk to their employer and have a conversation about the move and other potential positions. We are obligated to move. The other options are being charged or release. For most, there isn’t even a discussion possible.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> They are not forced to move. We are.


"Move or you don't have a job" is a pretty compelling reason to move.

And CAF leadership embraces moves for less than valid reasons.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> They are not forced to move. We are.



If they want to get promoted and/or keep their jobs, most of them have to move. That's how the private sector works.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Perhaps not but at least make it based on family income.


So, 100K in income = Capt 6 GSO and above / MWO Spec 2 IPC 4 and above.  Start adding in environmental allowances and those drop rapidly.


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> So, 100K in income = Capt 6 GSO and above / MWO Spec 2 IPC 4 and above.  Start adding in environmental allowances and those drop rapidly.


Or two Cpls….  There are many scenarios possible.


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> If they want to get promoted and/or keep their jobs, most of them have to move. That's how the private sector works.


Lose a promotion, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal in many/most cases.


----------



## GR66 (1 May 2022)

Unit prices could be set at a rate that is the average of prices across the range of CF bases.  That way there would be some certainty in knowing what your housing costs will be when you move.  When posted to a base where the CF housing cost is less than the local average cost then the difference could be treated as a taxable benefit.  If the CF cost is higher than the local average then the difference could be made up as PLD.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Promoted, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal.



Not at all. 

If part of the requirement for the job is for you to run the branch office in Winnipeg, you'd better move to Winnipeg or they'll wave you goodbye while they fill that spot with someone else.

Welcome to the world of big business (that generates the revenue, through taxes etc, that pays for things like the CAF)


----------



## Booter (1 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Most of my management level clients move several times during their careers, sometimes from one side of Canada to another.
> 
> Their companies, and shareholders, don't compensate them with subsidized housing. Their spouses, as many male as female, have to figure out their careers ... and childcare (without family nearby) as well.
> 
> ...


those sound like terrible companies.

A very quick google search has all types of Canadian hits discussing how relocation in the private sector has to address cost of
Living and address spousal employment in some way.

I’m sure you can’t mention the specifics of these companies. I’m quite certain what you’re saying IS true however.

Just when this was being examined through the lens of benefits for other federal agencies there were lots of private sector examples that had quite generous assistance to their people to put the right person in the right job.

Perhaps the issue is- some people believe that if you serve in the CF and there is a benefit that’s okay, others believe that we should try and make everything as even with the private sector as possible.

I guess the proof of just how crazy this benefit is will the incredible number of people in the recruiting centre 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Booter (1 May 2022)

i was involved in some work that put me in touch with some mid and higher managers of a large tech/everything company- I was quite shocked at the expectation of their work and their compensation. Well paid- but their work schedule and benefits were quite surprising- in the way you describe DB. 

So I suppose it’s not universal. Thinking on my own post.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> This is the crux of the issue.
> 
> The government is unwilling to do things to fix retention that will actually cost money.
> 
> ...


Haven't always agreed with all your points but I think you've pointed your guns at the correct targets here.

Retention has multiple components to it and neither the Govt nor the CAF can fix it individually.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

Booter said:


> those sound like terrible companies.
> 
> A very quick google search has all types of Canadian hits discussing how relocation in the private sector has to address cost of
> Living and address spousal employment in some way.
> ...



This is not 'terrible', it's the way that highly successful organizations survive in a tremendously competitive global environment.

This article gives some insight into what it can be like for someone on an upwards career path, including regular moves internationally, with no 'career manager' apart from yourself - and no guarantee that they'll 'make it' either:

The CEO Succession Difference​How is top-level succession unique? To answer that question, take the case of Dennis (names in examples throughout this article have been changed). Dennis was on the fast track from the start. An Ivy League graduate, he spent three years in an industry leader’s sales-training program, got his MBA at a top school, and completed a finance-training program in another industry-leading company. After 18 months, he moved to the marketing department there, then to a branch manager job for a few years. Next, he jumped to a competitor to become a country manager (“I had to get my international ticket punched”); sales records were set in his market. Five years later, he was named senior vice president for emerging markets.

Not long after that, Dennis left to become the designated CEO successor at a company in a different industry, where he was unfamiliar with the products and technology. “I wasn’t looking,” he said, “but I knew I could run something bigger. I was ready. I was 44 years old, and [the COO and CEO of the company I had left] were in their mid fifties…and there were some talented people between me and them. Leaving there was the way to be a CEO faster.” In business school, he had set a goal to become a CEO by age 50. “As I got closer to the top, I became more confident that I’d reach that goal. I had been in four successful companies where I’d seen CEOs up close. I’m not saying that I’m better than they were, but I knew I could do their job.”

The succession plan approved by the board was for Dennis to enter as COO, with marketing, sales, manufacturing, engineering, and service reporting to him while the senior staff people (the head of HR, the CFO, and the general counsel) plus R&D stayed under Harvey, the chairman and CEO. The role of president remained unfilled. If things went well over the first 18 months, Dennis would take on that title. In another year, he would become CEO, and six months after that, Harvey would retire.









						Almost Ready: How Leaders Move Up
					

Reprint: R0501D Most designated CEO successors are talented, hardworking, and smart enough to go all the way—yet fail to land the top job. What they don’t realize is, the qualities that helped them in their climb to the number two position aren’t enough to boost them to number one. In addition...




					hbr.org


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> This is not 'terrible', it's the way that highly successful organizations survive in a tremendously competitive global environment.
> 
> This article gives some insight into what it can be like for someone on an upwards career path, including regular moves internationally, with no 'career manager' apart from yourself and no guarantee that they'll 'make it' either:
> 
> ...


Got it, so basically a minority of worker.


----------



## dapaterson (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Got it, so basically a minority of worker.


Like senior officers - a minority of the CAF.


----------



## SupersonicMax (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Like senior officers - a minority of the CAF.


Senior officers part of succession planning.  Many don’t want to progress.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Got it, so basically a minority of worker.



This Darwinian experience probably applies to most senior managers in big corporations who operate at a level equivalent to the rank of Maj/LCol in the CAF so yes, that would be a minority of those in a corporation of several thousand people.

It's even tougher for those in big consulting firms, or professional services organizations that track their time by the hour - like law firms.


----------



## lenaitch (1 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Lose a promotion, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal in many/most cases.


I'm not so sure that can be a blanket statement, but I'm not an employment lawyer.  It seems there are numerous factors that have to be considered, such as the existence of a bargaining unit, existence/terms of employment contract, position within the company, so-called 'legitimate business needs, etc.

The employer could also simply offer a severance package.  Depending on your age, length of service, etc. it could be a legal and relatively inexpensive way to rid themselves of a recalcitrant employee.

A friend was middle management at IBM and the inside joke used to be IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'.  Banks used to be notorious for moving their management-track people but I don't know if they still are.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And that is why nothing will change.  Senior officers feeling that they are entitled to their entitlements.
> 
> After getting a paid university degree (all pensionable time).  After getting paid career training.  After getting automatic promotion to a rank that starts at $84K and goes to $110K in their mid 20s (GSO).  Yet somehow, they feel they are owed subsidized housing.


The CAF needs to pay well because the conditions certain members are sometimes subjected to, are pretty bad.

Generally, crappy conditions = more pay.

I made a 140k last year, but that was including FSP, Danger Pay, Hazard Pay, etc.  Given what I was subjected to at times, pretty cheap all things considered in comparison to other lines of work.

My future employer also offers a nice compensation package but the compensation is also to make up for crappy conditions that also exist in that particular industry.

Canadians aren't going to do difficult and dangerous work if they aren't compensated appropriately, that's the reality.


----------



## Fabius (2 May 2022)

The housing issue isn’t about entitlements of one rank over another. Nor is it a desire for housing to be subsidized because CAF personnel are special. 
It’s about ensuring CAF personnel are able to move around the country and not experience large swings in their financial situations due to the vagaries of regional, provincial or municipal economics. That helps retention and recruitment. 

CAF personnel can’t and don’t have the ability to move of their own will to an area that is cheaper to live or has more amenities etc.  Nor do salaries differ depending on if you work in Toronto, Vancouver or Dundurn or Yellow Knife. 

Whether it’s PLD or something akin to the US services where their are large stores CONUS and across the globe with harmonized prices and a plethora of on base housing at a harmonized rate that may or may not have any relevance to the local market, they are all aimed at the same thing. 
Ensuring the quality of life across the country is as similar as possible so as to permit and promote ease of mobility. 
Right now the CAF is failing, and I agree the government isn’t willing to spend money to fix it and the military isn’t willing to imagine HR changes to mitigate it so here we are. 
🤔


----------



## btrudy (2 May 2022)

Looking at it from the perspective of whether or not members at certain rank (read: income) levels deserve subsidization to offset housing costs is IMHO a bit backwards. 

The government's imperative here is to stem the flood of personnel leaving the CAF. If we're still losing too many majors due to excessive housing costs when they're posted to places they wouldn't otherwise choose to live, then we're going to keep losing too many of them if the proposed solution to high housing costs doesn't include majors. 

If they're not leaving because of high housing costs, if retention at that rank level isn't an issue, then sure, exclude them from it. 

I rather suspect that retention at that level is absolutely an issue that needs to be fixed (along with basically all ranks below them).


----------



## lenaitch (2 May 2022)

I'm not sure they could craft public policy that is somehow drills down to rank or even trade levels.  Those parameters seem to be too fluid or dynamic to wrap national policy around.  As well, I'm not sure that the issue of housing costs and places people would otherwise want to live are necessarily connected. 

*****

I don't hope to understand CAF promotion and transfer policy, and this example likely has nothing to do with housing costs, but I was chatting with a member at a bike shop on the weekend.  CWO, 30 years in, and they wanted to transfer him halfway across the country.  He respectfully declined and retired; but, because of staffing shortages, he flipped over to the reserves, doing the same thing for it sounds like damned near full time hours.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## MilEME09 (2 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The CAF needs to pay well because the conditions certain members are sometimes subjected to, are pretty bad.
> 
> Generally, crappy conditions = more pay.
> 
> ...


Inflation has to be factored into this situation as well, housing costs alone are up an average of 30% nation wide. In just one year, your 140k isn't going as far as it did last year I imagine. 


Especially in Urban centers like Vancouver or Toronto, PLD from my understanding, barely scratches the surface for members. When was the last time any one this was reviewed?


While the liberal government is patting it self on the back for its national housing strategy, the strategy forgets about the housing of its own employees


----------



## OldSolduer (2 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> While the liberal government is patting it self on the back for its national housing strategy, the strategy forgets about the housing of its own employees



It’s no different provincially as well. Governments here of both parties love to tell private industry how to treat employees but continually roadblock their  own.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 May 2022)

The Forest industry in BC is suffering from similar issues, resulting in recruiting problems.

Some government staff lived in subsidized housing in townsites with their families, like PMQs, based in remote locations. When people started quitting, or not joining in the first place, because of this type of internal exile government sold off the properties and serviced the areas remotely.

Industry has always run camps, where workers rotate in and out every couple of weeks. This is proving less appealing too, as is living and working in mills based in remote parts of the Province. The town of Mackenzie, for example, is dying because people don't want to live there even though there are alot of high paying jobs available. This all adds to costs as turn over is high, and servicing remote areas is far more expensive.

From a conference in Vancouver last week:

B.C. forest sector grapples with attracting workers amid regulatory overhaul, image problem: industry panel​Bromley spoke as part of a panel on Friday at the annual convention of B.C. Council of Forest Industries (COFI), which discussed how to attract a new generation of workers to the sector, which directly employs 50,000 workers but is facing uncertainty as the province overhauls regulatory policies and civil unrest continues over logging old-growth trees.

"We have an image problem," said Bromely. "And that's something we have to deal with."

The panel, which included the heads of post-secondary institutions and a recent forestry graduate, said working against the sector were not just negative headlines in the media, but a lack of understanding over how the industry is moving toward modernity by incorporating new technologies and Indigenous land stewardship, as well as simpler things such as how workers can get to job sites due to the price of fuel, and work-life balance for new hires.

"From a young person's standpoint, how do we bridge that gap?" asked Bromley, who has two sons, one of whom is working in the film industry, while the other is considering working at a mill this summer.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/forestry-workers-british-columbia-new-generation-1.6437379


----------



## btrudy (2 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I'm not sure they could craft public policy that is somehow drills down to rank or even trade levels.  Those parameters seem to be too fluid or dynamic to wrap national policy around.  As well, I'm not sure that the issue of housing costs and places people would otherwise want to live are necessarily connected.
> 
> *****
> 
> I don't hope to understand CAF promotion and transfer policy, and this example likely has nothing to do with housing costs, but I was chatting with a member at a bike shop on the weekend.  CWO, 30 years in, and they wanted to transfer him halfway across the country.  He respectfully declined and retired; but, because of staffing shortages, he flipped over to the reserves, doing the same thing for it sounds like damned near full time hours.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


I definitely agree that managing such a policy to such a granular level would be troublesome at best. 

The simplest solution would be to ensure that the benefits of the policy are available to all.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I definitely agree that managing such a policy to such a granular level would be troublesome at best.
> 
> The simplest solution would be to ensure that the benefits of the policy are available to all.


It could be pro-rated by pay level. Perhaps set to a certain fixed percentage of income?


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

There are already parts of compensation and benefits that change at the “EX” level with federal government and not always towards their best interest, If a person wanted to draw a Line you could.


----------



## lenaitch (2 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> It’s no different provincially as well. Governments here of both parties love to tell private industry how to treat employees but continually roadblock their  own.


Yup.  Ontario moved the cost of employer-provided housing to local market value in the mid-1980s.  Things like meal costs when you're travelling have always lagged the market, especially in urban remote areas which are more expensive for different reasons.  I believe you folks can claim 'per diem' whether or not the money is spent, so at least you can baloney sandwich your way around. 😁

In terms of resource harvesting, historically a townsite would emerge near a mine, but the government hasn't allowed a new one in at least 50 years, because they know they are stuck servicing or supporting it once the mine shuts down.  Better transportation options and changing lifestyle expectations allow crews to cycle in and out of temporary bunk camps on extended cycles.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2022)

Malaysia offers housing to all it's Public Service and military. Quality of said housing is dependent on rank. Problem has been that government sees Federal land as a piggy bank and why to balance the present budget with no thought to the future and the Canadian government will always take the cheapest way forward, regardless of how much it costs.


----------



## dimsum (2 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Especially in Urban centers like Vancouver or Toronto, PLD from my understanding, barely scratches the surface for members. When was the last time any one this was reviewed?


2009 or earlier.


----------



## RangerRay (2 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The Forest industry in BC is suffering from similar issues, resulting in recruiting problems.
> 
> Some government staff lived in subsidized housing in townsites with their families, like PMQs, based in remote locations. When people started quitting, or not joining in the first place, because of this type of internal exile government sold off the properties and serviced the areas remotely.
> 
> ...


A lot of forestry students want to work in the bush but not move to a mill town to do it. 

To be honest, not all mill towns are created equally…


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

RangerRay said:


> A lot of forestry students want to work in the bush but not move to a mill town to do it.
> 
> To be honest, not all mill towns are created equally…


Plus the uncertainty of what you’ll be trying to move from. Enough collapsed mill towns that a person would appropriately be concerned about starting any roots- especially financially.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> Plus the uncertainty of what you’ll be trying to move from. Enough collapsed mill towns that a person would appropriately be concerned about starting any roots- especially financially.



The traditional career pathing for the sector - in BC anyways - was that the 'new people' would earn their spurs in the Boonies, then migrate through various other positions around the sector and finally end up in either the Okanagan, Kootenays or Vancouver Island for retirement.

Spiking house prices in those 'retirement' communities have pretty much canned that idea, I would think.


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The traditional career pathing for the sector - in BC anyways - was that the 'new people' would earn their spurs in the Boonies, then migrate through various other positions around the sector and finally end up in either the Okanagan, Kootenays or Vancouver Island for retirement.
> 
> Spiking house prices in those 'retirement' communities have pretty much canned that idea, I would think.


That’s similar to a few industries- even with EMS. Cut your teeth in the boonies- but reality has changed that like you’re saying


----------



## mariomike (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> That’s similar to a few industries- even with EMS. Cut your teeth in the boonies- but reality has changed that like you’re saying



Where was that?


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

Bc. Breaking into the industry you went into the woods and worked on call for a pittance to build the hours to get a job in the southern half of the province.


----------



## mariomike (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> Bc. Breaking into the industry you went into the woods and worked on call for a pittance to build the hours to get a job in the southern half of the province.



Their brochure sounds nice,



> Choose an urban, small-town, or remote lifestyle in beautiful British Columbia.
> Fraser, Interior, Northern, Vancouver Coastal and Vancouver Island; there is a lifestyle to suit you! The mountains and ocean provide an amazing backdrop for outdoor sports and recreation, and each region has its own perks such as downtown shopping and entertainment, wineries, and family-friendly communities.
> Flexibility in taking your career anywhere in BC


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

My knowledge is pretty dated. Really a guy had to have a couple jobs and be on call to really get ahead. 

They’ve been trying to change it for a while. But yeah- it’s beautiful country…when I was a young firefighter/EMR decades ago they almost got me…


----------



## Good2Golf (2 May 2022)

SupersonicMax said:


> Lose a promotion, yes. Lose your job? That would be illegal in many/most cases.


In Ontario, the ESA requires only a week pay per year of employment.  Executives can use common law to support more if they didn’t (like they wouldn’t) have additional clauses, but companies don’t have to continue employment if they don’t want to. Even worse if you work for a US subsidiary that translates ‘At Will’ employment into Canada in exchange for the ‘bank.’


----------



## Halifax Tar (2 May 2022)

I can't understand why Firefighters and Police make what they do but EMTs are second class citizens.  

Out here it's criminal how we treat out EMTs, but a firefighter will sleep for a few days a month and make a 6 figure salary.


----------



## mariomike (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> My knowledge is pretty dated. Really a guy had to have a couple jobs and be on call to really get ahead.
> 
> They’ve been trying to change it for a while. But yeah- it’s beautiful country…when I was a young firefighter/EMR decades ago they almost got me…



Collective agreements vary from province to province, and city to city.  I'm only familiar with one.

One of our paramedics made $241,119 last year according to the Sunshine List.

Then you get into the supervisors, managers, deputy chiefs and the chief.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 May 2022)

Are the ‘clock stoppers’ considered management?


----------



## lenaitch (2 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I can't understand why Firefighters and Police make what they do but EMTs are second class citizens.
> 
> Out here it's criminal how we treat out EMTs, but a firefighter will sleep for a few days a month and make a 6 figure salary.


Until I see them playing with water at -20*C, or wearing bunker gear at +30.   There is probably a risk/reward imbalance in a lot of professions, but I agree, paramedics are generally underpaid, as are conservation officers in Ontario.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2022)

Same with DFO Fisheries Officers take a look at this, the suck is strong, but they know people come for the outdoor lifestyle Training and recruitment for fishery officers

Associated salary scales are: 

GT-02 ($52,864 to $59,754)
GT-03 ($59,118 to $67,035)
GT-04 ($66,610 to $75,733)
My friend in the RCMP and his wife working as a Emergency Room Nurse, could not afford a two bedroom apartment in North Vancouver.


----------



## mariomike (2 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> There is probably a risk/reward imbalance in a lot of professions, but I agree, paramedics are generally underpaid, as are conservation officers in Ontario.



True.

This is from 2011 to 2016,








						Salary disclosure for AEMCA applicants
					

The 2011 Sunshine List was released today.   Salary disclosure may be of interest to Ontario Paramedic program applicants, and out-of-province AEMCA equivalency applicants.  City of Toronto: Paramedic Level 1: $138,097.54    ( $515.37 ) Paramedic Level 2: $138,807.39    ( $570.06 ) Paramedic...




					army.ca


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Same with DFO Fisheries Officers take a look at this, the suck is strong, but they know people come for the outdoor lifestyle Training and recruitment for fishery officers
> 
> Associated salary scales are:
> 
> ...


I did train a DFO recruit class- while in training one bought a house where he was posted for 40 thousand dollars

So you’re right. But I was just like daaaaaaaamn. He ll never sell it, but if it’s where you want to be….


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> I did train a DFO recruit class- while in training one bought a house where he was posted for 40 thousand dollars
> 
> So you’re right. But I was just like daaaaaaaamn. He ll never sell it, but if it’s where you want to be….


For $40k, he could burn it down and walk away….


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> For $40k, he could burn it down and walk away….


A real transfer party. Burn the house down and off to the next post.

DFO is a bit of a hidden gem in fed agencies. The Parks Canada wardens job is pretty phenomenal as well- their issue being it’s lots of half and three quarter positions. It’s golden once you have a FULL time gig.

There’s actually some incredible opportunity out there- in the CF as well. I think I take it for granted a lot when I’m down in the weeds of “what’s wrong with everything”


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 May 2022)

> what we are 'selling' (the product),



The profession of arms.  If not that, then what?


----------



## Weinie (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> A real transfer party. Burn the house down and off to the next post.
> 
> DFO is a bit of a hidden gem in fed agencies. The Parks Canada wardens job is pretty phenomenal as well- their issue being it’s lots of half and three quarter positions. It’s golden once you have a FULL time gig.
> 
> There’s actually some incredible opportunity out there- in the CF as well. I think I take it for granted a lot when I’m down in the weeds of “what’s wrong with everything”


A buddy of mine left the CAF and went to Parks Canada. His beat is around the Rideau Canal from Ottawa to about 50 clicks west. He has never been happier.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2022)

Booter said:


> A real transfer party. Burn the house down and off to the next post.
> 
> DFO is a bit of a hidden gem in fed agencies. The Parks Canada wardens job is pretty phenomenal as well- their issue being it’s lots of half and three quarter positions. It’s golden once you have a FULL time gig.
> 
> There’s actually some incredible opportunity out there- in the CF as well. I think I take it for granted a lot when I’m down in the weeds of “what’s wrong with everything”


DFO has some truly awesome employees they don't deserve. They also have some of the worse and slimiest managers I have met, with a some notably exceptions.


----------



## Booter (2 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> DFO has some truly awesome employees they don't deserve. They also have some of the worse and slimiest managers I have met, with a some notably exceptions.


Prolly all ex Mounties.

I agree with your first sentence. I really liked them- I was disappointed that I couldn’t have them as police officers. But from staying in touch with them- they are better off.

Some of those fisheries officers went to some TINY places. They didn’t seem to have an issue getting someone to go…


----------



## MilEME09 (2 May 2022)

Canadian Armed Forces’ ‘compassionate posting’ process needs overhaul: watchdog - National | Globalnews.ca
					

While around one in four Canadian Armed Forces members are required to relocate every year, those with special family needs are allowed to apply for exemptions.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Until I see them playing with water at -20*C, or wearing bunker gear at +30.   There is probably a risk/reward imbalance in a lot of professions, but I agree, paramedics are generally underpaid, as are conservation officers in Ontario.



I've spent oodles of time in bunker gear putting wet stuff on hot stuff.  It's not that bad.  And the other 29 days month of sleeping make up for the temporary hardship.

While volunteers do the same thing for a bargain price.  

I see FF organizations pricing themselves out of jobs in the future.  Much like Mounties, 
whos services, incidentally, are now under review in various communities in NS as the pricing model is beyond the means of most.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Canadian Armed Forces’ ‘compassionate posting’ process needs overhaul: watchdog - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> While around one in four Canadian Armed Forces members are required to relocate every year, those with special family needs are allowed to apply for exemptions.
> ...



Again we need balance.  We can not provide one family permanent geographic security at the expense of everyone else.

Great quote:

“CAF members reported instances where their chain of command was unaware of the steps involved in the process and unable to identify the decision-making authority,”

That's our leadership training in action right there.


----------



## Bluebulldog (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I can't understand why Firefighters and Police make what they do but EMTs are second class citizens.
> 
> Out here it's criminal how we treat out EMTs, but a firefighter will sleep for a few days a month and make a 6 figure salary.


It depends. In ON Paramedics aren't "Essential services". ( Yes, I know how stupid that sounds, but in fact, they can strike. 

I guess if the Ambulance Drivers go out, 911 then routes Fire....



lenaitch said:


> Until I see them playing with water at -20*C, or wearing bunker gear at +30. There is probably a risk/reward imbalance in a lot of professions, but I agree, paramedics are generally underpaid, as are conservation officers in Ontario.



Have to agree. The risk reward matrix in Fire, and Police vs paramedics is a bit imbalanced.

I've been a Volunteer FF, in Ottawa, and seen my counterparts driving the Ambulances....I won't cast aspersions on their trade, but the level of risk is not the same. 

"Why does Fire always charge a hose line at MVCs?"
"So the paramedics have something to walk on."


----------



## brihard (3 May 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


> It depends. In ON Paramedics aren't "Essential services". ( Yes, I know how stupid that sounds, but in fact, they can strike.
> 
> I guess if the Ambulance Drivers go out, 911 then routes Fire....
> 
> ...


Are the ‘ambulance drivers’ the ones who have, at a minimum, a college deplorable in primary care paramedic, plus a fair bit of on the road clinical training before they ever go live?

I dunno, I’ve got plenty of experience waiting for both fire and paramedics who are staging while we deal with the first ten minutes of a call, and then supporting them when they’re doing their part. I’ve seen firefighters go into some super sketchy situations to keep people safe. I’ve seen paramedics deal with the worst people imaginable while those victims are in acute distress, with medics getting kicked, punched, bit, and spat on. And I shudder to imagine the biological hazards they’re constantly exposed to. I also have a soft spot for the one medic who helped dive in when I was in a scrap with a suspect once.

Particularly when the impacts of operational trauma are added to the picture, I don’t think it’s fair to undersell the risks paramedics face. I wouldn’t want their job.


----------



## lenaitch (3 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Same with DFO Fisheries Officers take a look at this, the suck is strong, but they know people come for the outdoor lifestyle Training and recruitment for fishery officers
> 
> Associated salary scales are:
> 
> ...


No doubt (I have had virtually no exposure to the DFO).  COs, game wardens, etc. are mostly self-identified 'bush pigs' and are typically quite happy living in many of the places they do.


Halifax Tar said:


> I've spent oodles of time in bunker gear putting wet stuff on hot stuff.  It's not that bad.  And the other 29 days month of sleeping make up for the temporary hardship.
> 
> While volunteers do the same thing for a bargain price.
> 
> ...


My neighbour is a city firefighter for a department that uses 24-hour shifts, so, what, 7 days a month?  He's waiting for his second shoulder to be replaced, both job-based, and one hip on the way out, partially job-based.

Totally agree on volunteers.  Recruiting is becoming a problem around here.  The rural demographic is aging and the younger folks that are still around often travel farther to work.

I was in Scottsdale AZ and good number of years ago and their fire service was a private company under contract.  I don't know if they still are or how enduring that model is.

It seems BC is making some noise, again, about returning to a provincial police service.  I don't know if the economics are there, but I've never quite understood how the lower mainland and greater Victoria area have not seen amalgamation, but I don't follow the politics.  Local police services sound great until you realize to have to also provide service to the Dease Lakes, Hornpaynes or Ingonishs of the world.  Small municipal services can get by on a typical day basis . . . until you get a complex homicide, need specialized investigators, or simply a whole lotta bodies.  I suppose one answer could be the US model with an uncountable number of municipal services, counties and state agencies.


----------



## lenaitch (3 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Are the ‘ambulance drivers’ the ones who have, at a minimum, a college *deplorable* in primary care paramedic, plus a fair bit of on the road clinical training before they ever go live?
> 
> I dunno, I’ve got plenty of experience waiting for both fire and paramedics who are staging while we deal with the first ten minutes of a call, and then supporting them when they’re doing their part. I’ve seen firefighters go into some super sketchy situations to keep people safe. I’ve seen paramedics deal with the worst people imaginable while those victims are in acute distress, with medics getting kicked, punched, bit, and spat on. And I shudder to imagine the biological hazards they’re constantly exposed to. I also have a soft spot for the one medic who helped dive in when I was in a scrap with a suspect once.
> 
> Particularly when the impacts of operational trauma are added to the picture, I don’t think it’s fair to undersell the risks paramedics face. I wouldn’t want their job.


Autocorrect or not a fan of the community college system?  😁


----------



## Bluebulldog (3 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Are the ‘ambulance drivers’ the ones who have, at a minimum, a college deplorable in primary care paramedic, plus a fair bit of on the road clinical training before they ever go live?



Not to digress in the thread too much.

I'm not saying the job doesn't have its hazards. I was in a relationship with a paramedic for quite a long time. For every "hero moment" there were a ton of bad calls, but there was also a lot of slackassery as well. PCP is a baseline for Paramedics, and currently it can be obtained with less than a year of career college, and a couple of months preceptorship. There also isn't a governing body for PCPs in ON. So if you somehow manage to get in, and you're lousy, it takes a lot to get you out. ACP...different story. 



brihard said:


> Particularly when the impacts of operational trauma are added to the picture, I don’t think it’s fair to undersell the risks paramedics face. I wouldn’t want their job.




Saw it firsthand. 

IMHO, Paramedics get a crummy shake in ON ( I can only speak for my own province / experience). As most services have PCPs start on a call-in / casual basis, often for up to 10 years. During that time, they have no benefits, and no sick days. Full time? Yes, absolutely, but the journey to get there often chews up decent folks, and spits them out.


----------



## Quirky (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again we need balance. We can not provide one family permanent geographic security at the expense of everyone else.



I wonder if civilian employers would give so much leniency to their employers who have these kinds of issues. While there are plenty of areas where we can improve, I don't think anyone should complain about paid time off for medical appointments for themselves and their families.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> I wonder if civilian employers would give so much leniency to their employers who have these kinds of issues. While there are plenty of areas where we can improve, I don't think anyone should complain about paid time off for medical appointments for themselves and their families.



I agree we are very open to partial days off.  I think that had more to do with our antiquated leave system though. 

I took the article be more along the lines of geographic postings and ops tempo.  I know of a person in my trade in Halifax right now who has never sailed because they have a child with special needs.  Their spouse is also military.  They've been here for close to 10 years.  

How many families have had to endure extra hardship and what impact has that had on the other families ?  At what point have we been fair and now it's time for the member to give some ?

I agree we should help where we can, but what's the total cost ?  And when has the accomodation started to cost more than is feasible ?


----------



## Quirky (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I know of a person in my trade in Halifax right now who has never sailed because they have a child with special needs. Their spouse is also military. They've been here for close to 10 years.



That's not fair to everyone else. While we need to take care of our people, I think the CAF regularly steers towards being a very expensive social welfare safety net. Medical releases take way too long for example, paying people to sit at home for months and years is unacceptable.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> That's not fair to everyone else. While we need to take care of our people, I think the CAF regularly steers towards being a very expensive social welfare safety net. Medical releases take way too long for example, paying people to sit at home for months and years is unacceptable.


I'm retired and to a point I agree with you. There are regulations governing "Compassionate" postings and the like and I have no idea how vigorously they are enforced.

The issue as I see it is the Cpl Bloggins who has a special needs child being told "take the posting to sea/field unit etc or be released".  Then the spouse runs to the nearest media outlet with this latest outrage. And the CAF will not say a thing due to "privacy" issues.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I agree we are very open to partial days off.  I think that had more to do with our antiquated leave system though.
> 
> I took the article be more along the lines of geographic postings and ops tempo.  I know of a person in my trade in Halifax right now who has never sailed because they have a child with special needs.  Their spouse is also military.  They've been here for close to 10 years.
> 
> ...



Based on my observation of the quality of the RSS pool over the past few decades, I'm pretty sure that's why the CAF keeps the Reserves in operation: so they have somewhere to post their 'people with issues' to


----------



## OldSolduer (3 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Based on my observation of the quality of the RSS pool over the past few decades, I'm pretty sure that's why the CAF keeps the Reserves in operation: so they have somewhere to post their 'people with issues' to


Some yes - We had an RSS staff who showed up about three times then disappeared.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Some yes - We had an RSS staff who showed up about three times then disappeared.



I wasn't concerned with those types as much as the ones who should have disappeared, but didn't


----------



## Booter (3 May 2022)

The compassionate system federally is a mess- that doesn’t serve anyone consistently, 

But years of accommodation is no good for anyone- that’s a place where the compassionate part should be transitioning to a PS job where it’s not feasible for you to deploy for 15-20 years.

We actually do both sides badly. Weird.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 May 2022)

> a college deplorable in primary care paramedic



I do love automated features...


----------



## lenaitch (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I took the article be more along the lines of geographic postings and ops tempo.  I know of a person in my trade in Halifax right now who has never sailed because they have a child with special needs.  Their spouse is also military.  They've been here for close to 10 years.
> 
> How many families have had to endure extra hardship and what impact has that had on the other families ?  At what point have we been fair and now it's time for the member to give some ?
> 
> I agree we should help where we can, but what's the total cost ?  And when has the accomodation started to cost more than is feasible ?


Agree, and it' not restricted to the CAF.  I don't know what your rules are but the civilian legislation uses terms like 'reasonable accommodation' and 'undo hardship', but employers often avoid wanting to find out what the practical manifestations of those are.  Both have different meanings at the personal, local and organizational levels.  I know of one police member, uniformed patrol, who does not work nights because it has been determined that driving at night is too stressful (I don't know any details beyond that).  So in a small-ish office, other members are obviously working more nights.


----------



## brihard (3 May 2022)

Dammit, autocorrect got me good on that one, lol.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Based on my observation of the quality of the RSS pool over the past few decades, I'm pretty sure that's why the CAF keeps the Reserves in operation: so they have somewhere to post their 'people with issues' to


Funny most of my interactions with RSS staff has always been positive, that was between 1977-86. I deeply appreciate the council and advice from the RSS Warrant Officers I got.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 May 2022)

> Dammit, autocorrect got me good on that one, lol.



However, it means people are reading what you write...


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Funny most of my interactions with RSS staff has always been positive, that was between 1977-86. I deeply appreciate the council and advice from the RSS Warrant Officers I got.



I know what you mean about the 70s and 80s as we generally got good people then.

Things changed in the 90s, based on my experience, and became a little less 'consistent'.


----------



## Furniture (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I agree we are very open to partial days off.  I think that had more to do with our antiquated leave system though.
> 
> *I took the article be more along the lines of geographic postings and ops tempo.  I know of a person in my trade in Halifax right now who has never sailed because they have a child with special needs.  Their spouse is also military.  They've been here for close to 10 years. *
> 
> ...


I suspect you'll find that the member has never actually been on compassionate status, and has just been accommodated based on the "he's a good guy", or "I've known him for years" system... I know of people in my trade who held up positions wasting space simply because their supervisors wouldn't push for compassionate status, so their accommodation was officially tracked, and the clock would start ticking. 

While I think the CAF should be looking to do more to support people, and take people's wishes into consideration, it can't be at the expense of other members.


----------



## OldSolduer (3 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> While I think the CAF should be looking to do more to support people, and take people's wishes into consideration, it can't be at the expense of other members.


I agree. When soldiers are serving multiple deployments to wherever but there are some that have never deployed on an overseas operation. The soldier that needs the break can't get it because "so and so can't go because of _____"


----------



## mariomike (3 May 2022)

Bluebulldog said:


>


Lenaitch said,


> I know of one police member, uniformed patrol, who does not work nights because it has been determined that driving at night is too stressful (I don't know any details beyond that).  So in a small-ish office, other members are obviously working more nights.



I imagine that must raise a few eyebrows with the old-timers.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

Furniture said:


> I suspect you'll find that the member has never actually been on compassionate status, and has just been accommodated based on the "he's a good guy", or "I've known him for years" system... I know of people in my trade who held up positions wasting space simply because their supervisors wouldn't push for compassionate status, so their accommodation was officially tracked, and the clock would start ticking.
> 
> While I think the CAF should be looking to do more to support people, and take people's wishes into consideration, it can't be at the expense of other members.



I am well aware of the games and administrative gymnastics we will play, especially for specific segments of our demographics. 



OldSolduer said:


> I agree. When soldiers are serving multiple deployments to wherever but there are some that have never deployed on an overseas operation. The soldier that needs the break can't get it because "so and so can't go because of _____"



Bingo.  I always wonder when I see fellow CPO2/MWO with a CD, "Where in the sweet mother of god have you been for the last 10 - 15 years ?"


----------



## dapaterson (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am well aware of the games and administrative gymnastics we will play, especially for specific segments of our demographics.


Hockey players?


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Hockey players?



Segments is plural lol but you're in the ball park.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Bingo.  I always wonder when I see fellow CPO2/MWO with a CD, "Where in the sweet mother of god have you been for the last 10 - 15 years ?"



Well, he's got a clasp...





			https://tridentnewspaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/new-fleet-chief-HS06-2019-0306-017.jpg


----------



## dapaterson (3 May 2022)

Some fought and failed to get deployments; some were held back by their CoC "'til next roto".

And some (a smaller number) actively avoided deployments.


----------



## Weinie (3 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some fought and failed to get deployments; some were held back by their CoC "'til next roto".
> 
> And some (a smaller number) actively avoided deployments.


He is really good, or really shyte but thought of as really good. Hope it is the former.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Some fought and failed to get deployments; some were held back by their CoC "'til next roto".
> 
> And some (a smaller number) actively avoided deployments.



With respect, I call BS.  No one in the Reg Force has an excuse.  Unless you're a bandsmen I suppose.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, he's got a clasp...
> 
> View attachment 70513
> 
> ...



No comment.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> No comment.


----------



## btrudy (3 May 2022)

I mean, if we're talking navy folks, there's those out there that spent a hell of a lot of time sailing, and just happened to end up racking up a shitload of sea time on stuff that didn't count towards any medals. Especially when you get stuff like East Coasters getting medals for their "NATO" tours, but West Coasters getting nothing for their RIMPAC tours, despite there being no real functional difference in what the ships are doing.


----------



## Weinie (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> With respect, I call BS.  No one in the Reg Force has an excuse.  Unless you're a bandsmen I suppose.


I tried from 2002 til 2008 to get a deployment to Afghanistan. I was fit, had no Med excuses, and was rarin to go. My CoC turned down all my memos.  BTW, I am not a thudfuck: apparently, I was crucial to the orgs that I was in. So, no BS, but some context.


----------



## Grimey (3 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, he's got a clasp...
> 
> View attachment 70513
> 
> ...


I know Tim personally.  He’s been on multiple deployments, they just weren’t ‘operational’ and didn‘t end up with a gong.  He spent time as Fleet Chief in Halifax.  The east coasters must have found his lack of salad interesting.


----------



## dapaterson (3 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> With respect, I call BS.  No one in the Reg Force has an excuse.  Unless you're a bandsmen I suppose.


I have a non zero number of conflicting experiences with peers and subordinates.  Including such classic comments from the CoC as "I didn't want to deploy ,so I figured no one else would want to, so I sent a nil return".  Or the self-fulfilling prophecy of "We want to send someone with experience deployed" resulting in no one getting experience, and the individual always tasked getting fed up and releasing.

Never underestimate the ability of the institution to go full stupid.


EDIT: To say nothing of someone DAGing red when the MPs want someone to be available for an interview once their CO has been relieved of command - and the MP interview only (finally) happening after the predeployment training, initial deployment, HLTA, return to deployment, return from deployment, and post-deployment leave being complete.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I mean, if we're talking navy folks, there's those out there that spent a hell of a lot of time sailing, and just happened to end up racking up a shitload of sea time on stuff that didn't count towards any medals. Especially when you get stuff like East Coasters getting medals for their "NATO" tours, but West Coasters getting nothing for their RIMPAC tours, despite there being no real functional difference in what the ships are doing.



Sine 9/11 the East coast has been flat out.  And I'm sure it's the same on the west coast. It's a pretty rare sight to see a Chief with only a CD now.  Which is very counter to when I joined.  And which is also why it raises eye brows, mine included. 



Weinie said:


> I tried from 2002 til 2008 to get a deployment to Afghanistan. I was fit, had no Med excuses, and was rarin to go. My CoC turned down all my memos.  BTW, I am not a thudfuck: apparently, I was crucial to the orgs that I was in. So, no BS, but some context.



Thank you for your service.  I hope you get the most out of your retirement.


----------



## FSTO (4 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sine 9/11 the East coast has been flat out. And I'm sure it's the same on the west coast. It's a pretty rare sight to see a Chief with only a CD now. Which is very counter to when I joined. And which is also why it raises eye brows, mine included.


When I joined the CD was the only gong you saw on a naval uniform. Now, everyone has a rack that’ll make Nelson blush.


----------



## Furniture (4 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Sine 9/11 the East coast has been flat out.  And I'm sure it's the same on the west coast. It's a pretty rare sight to see a Chief with only a CD now.  Which is very counter to when I joined.  And which is also why it raises eye brows, mine included.


The West coast has been going hard as well, but even with that some people end up not deploying through no fault of their own. While I was out West I deployed multiple times, while during the same period a buddy of mine posted to a different ship sailed a lot, but never left the West coast of North America apart from one trip to Hawaii. 

My last "deployment" was a 5 month Asia trip that only turned into a deployment after we had been home for a year. I know "Westploys", and "Southploys" months in duration were the norm out West for a long time, before the CAF started treating them properly as deployments.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> When I joined the CD was the only gong you saw on a naval uniform. Now, everyone has a rack that’ll make Nelson blush.



It makes a lot of folks blush.....way back when it was a source of pride that we didn't look like 'Mericans with camp fire medals and I shot a target patches.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 May 2022)

Grimey said:


> I know Tim personally.  He’s been on multiple deployments, they just weren’t ‘operational’ and didn‘t end up with a gong.  He spent time as Fleet Chief in Halifax.  The east coasters must have found his lack of salad interesting.


So he hasn't been on any deployment, he's just done a bunch of training/force generation sails allegedly 😁

Wait for it:

'Navy People getting angry and saying "every time we leave the wall" we are deployed!'

🤣


----------



## Quirky (4 May 2022)

If they gave out medals every time I left base to do my job outside the country, I'd need counter weights. Since it's not a "named operation" even though the job is the essentially the same, you don't get the same recognition. In the end who cares how many pieces of flair you may or may not have, its more-so indicative of how little the CAF deploys, not so much an individual persons accomplishments. Troops with no medals just means the government has little interest in the CAF doing anything.


----------



## Grimey (4 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So he hasn't been on any deployment, he's just done a bunch of training/force generation sails allegedly 😁
> 
> Wait for it:
> 
> ...


Harrumph…..

It’s all in the interpretation 😜


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 May 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> It makes a lot of folks blush.....way back when it was a source of pride that we didn't look like 'Mericans with camp fire medals and I shot a target patches.



I enjoy watching the new kids, with a rack and a half, standing next to Old Cold War farts my age with a 'sports rack'.

Talk about a paradox


----------



## FSTO (4 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I enjoy watching the new kids, with a rack and a half, standing next to Old Cold War farts my age with a 'sports rack'.
> 
> Talk about a paradox


Rack envy is rife!

I remember at the CoC for ALG and the new CO's wife came up to me (We were all just presented the SWASM and that made 4 for me) and said that her husband was likely jealous of all my decorations, he only had a CD at the time. I said I was just fortunate for being at the right place at the right time and that the number of decorations in no way denigrate his service to Canada.

Small world note: Her uncle and my dad had a partnership in a herd bull back in the 70's.


----------



## Underway (4 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I mean, if we're talking navy folks, there's those out there that spent a hell of a lot of time sailing, and just happened to end up racking up a shitload of sea time on stuff that didn't count towards any medals. Especially when you get stuff like East Coasters getting medals for their "NATO" tours, but West Coasters getting nothing for their RIMPAC tours, despite there being no real functional difference in what the ships are doing.


Looking on the wrong side of the Uniform. This is the reason they added the Sea Service Insignia.  His looks silver, might be gold.  Good enough for me.  3-4 years at sea (not just posted to a sea-going unit).  If it's gold then it's 4+ years.

A lot of the older PRes sailors had a gong and gold.   All those days at sea on MCDV's doing the MARS 4 training, exercises, and fishpats without any overseas operation.

RIMPAC is an exercise.  A NATO is not.  The current equivalent is OP REASSURANCE (east) and OP PROJECTION (west).  OP REASSURANCE is not a twofer, its one medal. 



Humphrey Bogart said:


> 'Navy People getting angry and saying "every time we leave the wall" we are deployed!'



I like correcting people when they say that.  Properly it's "Every time we leave the wall we're operational".  Same as for aircraft.  

Deployments (shorthand for Operational Deployment outside of Canada), operations, and operational always get confused with each other and are not the same things, as evidenced by the West Coast's historical inequity in the "bling" distribution category.  I'm very glad that they brought in OP PROJECTION for the West Coast.  It recognizes what is essentially a Deployment but was always viewed as a nice port visit tour around Asia.  Which it certainly is not.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (4 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I enjoy watching the new kids, with a rack and a half, standing next to Old Cold War farts my age with a 'sports rack'.
> 
> Talk about a paradox



Comparing quality of "racks" is always impetus to resurrect an old post.



Blackadder1916 said:


> One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  I was able therefore to drive to Normandy and spend 6 June 94 (50th Anniversary of D-Day) visiting some of the memorials and events there; take the ferry across to England; turn my car over to Cunard for loading onto the ship and then relax for several days on the North Atlantic.  The voyage was billed as a “D-Day Memorial” cruise.  Many of the passengers were WW II veterans, mostly American, some Brits, and at least one Canadian.
> 
> One of the events that occurred on the ship was the Captain’s Welcome Party.  Dressed in finest bib and tucker, you go through the receiving line, have your photo taken and then proceed to the most important part of the soiree… getting a drink.  Some of the other passengers were wearing medals, ribbons or devices that showed that they had served.  I was in mess kit as were a few of the other passengers including a Van Doo LCol and a husband & wife who were both pilots in the USAF.   It was particularly easy for the Van Doo and me to be noticed in the scarlet monkey jackets.
> 
> ...


----------



## Grimey (4 May 2022)

FSTO said:


> Rack envy is rife!
> 
> I remember at the CoC for ALG and the new CO's wife came up to me (We were all just presented the SWASM and that made 4 for me) and said that her husband was likely jealous of all my decorations, he only had a CD at the time. I said I was just fortunate for being at the right place at the right time and that the number of decorations in no way denigrate his service to Canada.
> 
> Small world note: Her uncle and my dad had a partnership in a herd bull back in the 70's.


I remember that presentation.  A certain PO2 stoker‘s tunic was so tight the back of it was near horizontal and a button would have taken an eye out at 50 paces.  Let’s just say he didn’t take advantage of that trips’ SWOAD status to hit the gym.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 May 2022)

Obligatory article about using AI in HR practises included here for interest. The CAF does all this stuff, right? 

How Can Managers Use AI to Find the Right People?​Eight recommendations to help firms win the war for talent.


Long gone are the days where candidates had to go to a job centre or a company to turn in a job application. The internet has vaporised most of the frictions related to candidates finding companies and companies finding candidates.

Beginning in the mid-2000s, the launch of multi-platform aggregators, such as Indeed, kickstarted the digital recruiting revolution. The advent of digital social media and professional networks, such as Facebook and LinkedIn, also contributed. These platforms provide a space where firms could advertise their job opportunities and supply information that could be used to identify millions of passive job candidates. As a consequence, the number of applicants per job skyrocketed. For example, in 2017, L’Oréal received two million résumés for only 5,000 positions – a stunning 400 applicants per job.

*However, when participation is free and frictionless, the quality of participants typically goes down. Different studies and surveys have found that between 75 and 88 percent of all job applicants are actually unqualified for the job to which they apply.* In this sense, we are reminded of the famous line in “The Rime of the Ancient Mariner” by Samuel Taylor Coleridge: “Water, water everywhere / Nor any drop to drink.” In other words, without AI-enabled screening tools, companies risk drowning in a sea of low-quality candidates.

So, what can AI-enabled recruiting tools do to help firms generate broad and deep pools of talent, intelligently screen them, thoroughly evaluate them, and ultimately help them select and hire the right people? The short answer is, “a lot.” Here are our top eight recommendations.









						How Can Managers Use AI to Find the Right People?
					

Eight recommendations to help firms win the war for talent.




					knowledge.insead.edu


----------



## Navy_Pete (4 May 2022)

Underway said:


> RIMPAC is an exercise.  A NATO is not.  The current equivalent is OP REASSURANCE (east) and OP PROJECTION (west).  OP REASSURANCE is not a twofer, its one medal.


Bit of a funny story, deploy on Reassurance circa 2015 (or 16?), and was told to expect a swan around from NATO port to port doing flight deck parties etc. (eveything below was publically reported on with NATO tweeting about it etc)

A few months before we left Syria was accused of using chemical weapons on it's populace. We spent a bunch of time off Syria, including a whack of time shadowing the Russian fleet that was launching missiles and air strikes.

We also transitted into the Black Sea right around the attempted coup in Turkey, so was interesting not really being sure who was in control of the country we were allies with. Mad props to their AOR though for RASing with us anyway!

When we weren't doing that, we were bobbing around in the migrant corridor between Africa and the closest points in the EU (Italy, Greece etc) where there were overloaded boats getting rescued all the time.

There was some other stuff, but in general it was definitely not a drinking tour of the UK and friendly EU ports (in fact, CJOC gave us a hard 2 drink maximum when on shore leave, with other restrictions).

...Unless you asked the N37 for support, and they kept telling us we didn't need things like search lights, and other handy high readiness . Mind still blown, and there were a few people I wanted to fight on sight for a few years afterwards from the 'support' they provided over emails and messages.

Just venting now, but the disconnect between our actual operations and what MARLANT thought we were doing was huge.


----------



## dapaterson (4 May 2022)

I spent my honeymoon in Hawaii.  It happened to be at the same time as RIMPAC.  And I must salute the fine, hardworking CAF intelligence staff who strategically avoided booking accommodation until after nothing was available on base, so they booked at the boutique hotel we were staying at...


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> I spent my honeymoon in Hawaii.  It happened to be at the same time as RIMPAC.  And I must salute the fine, hardworking CAF intelligence staff who strategically avoided booking accommodation until after nothing was available on base, so they booked at the boutique hotel we were staying at...


Well trained admin officers I see!


----------



## Good2Golf (4 May 2022)

Majority of Canadians aren’t interested in doing ANYTHING!!!


----------



## FJAG (5 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> So, what can AI-enabled recruiting tools do to help firms generate broad and deep pools of talent, intelligently screen them, thoroughly evaluate them, and ultimately help them select and hire the right people? The short answer is, “a lot.” Here are our top eight recommendations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its only a matter of time (if not already) where there will be commercial AI programs for job seekers that game the AI programs that employers run.

Sigh.

Nothing beats the short-list personal interview - which I presume are more and more done by way of Zoom.

🍻


----------



## Halifax Tar (5 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Bit of a funny story, deploy on Reassurance circa 2015 (or 16?), and was told to expect a swan around from NATO port to port doing flight deck parties etc. (eveything below was publically reported on with NATO tweeting about it etc)
> 
> A few months before we left Syria was accused of using chemical weapons on it's populace. We spent a bunch of time off Syria, including a whack of time shadowing the Russian fleet that was launching missiles and air strikes.
> 
> ...



Ya I burnt a few bridges that trip and FRE '20.  The support we received was horrendous.


----------



## Underway (5 May 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Bit of a funny story, deploy on Reassurance circa 2015 (or 16?), and was told to expect a swan around from NATO port to port doing flight deck parties etc. (eveything below was publically reported on with NATO tweeting about it etc)
> 
> A few months before we left Syria was accused of using chemical weapons on it's populace. We spent a bunch of time off Syria, including a whack of time shadowing the Russian fleet that was launching missiles and air strikes.
> 
> ...


Sounds about right.  OP REASSURANCE, part amazing port visits (Sicily, Rome, Athens, Odessa, Constanta, etc... ) part super serious because the Russians were buzzing us or shooting missiles over us into Syria.


----------



## Remius (5 May 2022)

FJAG said:


> Its only a matter of time (if not already) where there will be commercial AI programs for job seekers that game the AI programs that employers run.
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> ...


My group is currently looking at AI as part of the initial screening process.  We are hoping it lets us cast a a wider net for talent.  Right now, hiring managers limit areas of selection to smaller populations not because they don’t want external talent but because they don’t have to ressources to take on large processes.  We are hoping that this use of AI can help with that.


----------



## GR66 (5 May 2022)

Would there be any benefit (for Army trades at least) to giving a degree of geographic posting certainty by concentrating like units together rather than spreading them out among the Brigades.  For language reasons 5 Brigade would remain as is, but for example could you co-locate the Strathconas and the RCD together in Edmonton so that for the majority of Anglo Armoured pers they would spend most of their career in one physical posting location.  Similarly, 1 RCHA and 2 RCHA could be in Shilo, 1 & 2 CER in Petawawa, etc.

Infantry would be a bit tougher, but if we were to stream between Mech Infantry (Anglo in Edmonton, Franco in Valcartier) and Light Infantry (Anglo in Petawawa and Franco in Valcartier) it could possibly work?

Curious what members think the potential plusses and minuses could be.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 May 2022)

Remius said:


> My group is currently looking at AI as part of the initial screening process.  We are hoping it lets us cast a a wider net for talent.  Right now, hiring managers limit areas of selection to smaller populations not because they don’t want external talent but because they don’t have to ressources to take on large processes.  We are hoping that this use of AI can help with that.



.... and then crash into the obsolete/analogue PER, and other HR, processes from the 19th century once they've enlisted


----------



## Remius (5 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> .... and then crash into the obsolete/analogue PER, and other HR, processes from the 19th century once they've enlisted


I’m with a PS organisation so can’t speak to that.  What I can say is we are concurrently developing an employee engagement plan.  We have a relatively high retention rate where I am and we are trying to leverage best practices to solidify that.  Talent retention is tied into what we are trying to achieve.  So attraction, recruitment and hiring, development and retention are all under the same umbrella.  But it’s a work in process.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 May 2022)

Remius said:


> I’m with a PS organisation so can’t speak to that.  What I can say is we are concurrently developing an employee engagement plan.  We have a relatively high retention rate where I am and we are trying to leverage best practices to solidify that.  Talent retention is tied into what we are trying to achieve.  So attraction, recruitment and hiring, development and retention are all under the same umbrella.  But it’s a work in process.



Excellent. Sounds like you are leading the way! Seriously...


----------



## mariomike (18 May 2022)

The CAF ranks high on the 2022 list of,  "Most respected occupations in Canada".









						Paramedics top list of most respected occupations in Canada: Poll
					

A new survey suggests Canadians hold emergency responders and health-care workers in high esteem compared to most other professions.




					ottawa.citynews.ca
				





_*2022 Respect score by profession*_

Paramedics – 92.0
Firefighters – 91.4
Nurses – 89.6
Farmers – 88.7
Medical Doctors – 86.5
Pharmacists – 85.1
Members of Armed Forces – 84.2
Scientists – 82.9
Airline pilots – 82.4
Grocery store workers – 80.8
Transit workers – 80.6
Teachers – 80.1
Veterinarians – 79.9
Engineers – 79.8
Police officers – 70.5
Judges – 68.8
Private sector long-term care home operators – 62.7
Journalists – 58.4
Lawyers – 55.8
Radio/TV talk show hosts – 54.0
Bankers – 53.8
Clergy – 52.9
Professional athletes – 50.6
Business executives – 48.6
Union leaders – 46.7
Elected members of parliament – 46.3
Advertising practitioners – 41.6
Car salespeople – 40.3
Owners of social media platforms – 33.9


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

mariomike said:


> The CAF ranks high on the 2022 list of,  "Most respected occupations in Canada".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No love for the Lawyers and Bankers?!  What gives!


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> No love for the Lawyers and Bankers?!  What gives!



At least 'Actors' didn't even make the list, which shows an unnerving degree of wisdom


----------



## Booter (18 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> At least 'Actors' didn't even make the list, which shows an unnerving degree of wisdom


You missed them because they’re referred to as elected members of parliament


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> At least 'Actors' didn't even make the list, which shows an unnerving degree of wisdom


I mean my SO is a Banker.  She tries to help people all the time but.....

She can't help them if they don't want to help themselves.

Interest Rates have made her job reeeaaaalllll interesting lately.  Some people didn't account for the end of free money.😉


----------



## OldSolduer (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Interest Rates have made her job reeeaaaalllll interesting lately.  Some people didn't account for the end of free money.😉


Speaking of which the Winnipeg Sun cannot for the life of them find reliable delivery people. Thank you Mr Trudeau for paying people to sit on their fat asses for two years - now they don't want a job.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Speaking of which the Winnipeg Sun cannot for the life of them find reliable delivery people. Thank you Mr Trudeau for paying people to sit on their fat asses for two years - now they don't want a job.


I haven't deep dived in to the exact causes but my understanding from what I have read is it's a combination of:

1.  People taking early retirement;
2.  People who were at retirement age deciding to take retirement instead of continuing to work;
3.  People who were already past retirement age but were still working, opting to retire;
4.  Lack of immigration during Pandemic Border controls being in effect.

Combine this with our declining birth rates and you begin to see why there are shortages.  Now we need to fill the gaps 😎


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I haven't deep dived in to the exact causes but my understanding from what I have read is it's a combination of:
> 
> 1.  People taking early retirement;
> 2.  People who were at retirement age deciding to take retirement instead of continuing to work;
> ...



A US article, but with similar patterns observed in Canada. 

Subtitle: 'the CAF is probably screwed for years to come' 

TOP HIRING CHALLENGES FOR 2022: WHY IT’S SO HARD TO FILL JOBS RIGHT NOW​
As we move past disruptive Covid-19-related restrictions, new hiring challenges have emerged. With a record number of job openings and a large pool of qualified candidates who are, or should be, eager to accept job offers, many employers are struggling to fill positions. Why?

AN UNPRECEDENTED U.S. LABOR MARKET​Demand for labor is historically high. The U.S. had 11.3 million job openings in January 2022, slightly down from a record 11.5 million in December 2021, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported. A whopping 678,000 jobs were created in February.

So far, the economy has recovered 18.8 million of the 22.4 million jobs lost during the early days of the pandemic, when temporary closures and stay-at-home orders forced companies to lay off or furlough millions of workers. Service industries, such as retail, hotels, restaurants, healthcare and professional services, which were the hardest hit at the beginning of the pandemic, have posted the most gains.

The result is a very tight job market in which job openings outnumber job seekers. For every 100 job openings in January, there were only 60 unemployed workers available, significantly tighter than 84 per 100 job openings in 2019. At the start of the pandemic, in April 2020, there were 490 unemployed people for every 100 jobs.

Although expanded federal unemployment programs expired Sep. 6, there has been no rush of workers into the labor force. Covid-19 concerns, childcare issues (even after schools re-opened), and larger-than-usual financial cushions have dampened job seeker interest. In addition, wages are rising but not enough to offset inflation and temp passive job seekers.

6 TOUGHEST HIRING CHALLENGES FOR 2022​As employers strive to rebuild capacity lost during the pandemic lockdowns, they’re running into some new hiring challenges.

1. THE GREAT RESIGNATION​The Great Resignation, a trend that took off in 2020 and continued throughout 2021, is still in full swing, with 4.3 million people quitting their jobs in January 2022, according BLS data. Last year, almost 48 million workers quit their jobs, an annual record. The hiring rate is higher than the quits rate, indicating that most workers are moving to other jobs rather than quitting the labor force.

2. A GROWING DIVIDE​Despite a record number of job openings and shortage of workers, employers continue to favor candidates with several years of experience and those who are available to work odd hours and willing to work on-site.

Workers, on the other hand, are seeking higher salaries, more flexibility (including flexible schedules and remote work options) and safe work environments. About 55% of job seekers on ZipRecruiter are seeking jobs that allow them to work from home, citing workplace safety concerns and childcare or family care needs.

This mismatch in priorities has created yet another post-Covid hiring challenge. Employers can’t fill their open positions, and job seekers can’t find jobs despite applying to numerous positions online.

So while the unemployment rate has gradually dropped to 3.8% in February 2022 from a 72-year high of 14.8% in April 2020, the number of long-term unemployed people (out of work more than six months) stands at about 2 million, BLS reported.

3. GREAT CHANGES AND GREAT EXPECTATIONS​Job duties and work procedures in certain jobs and industries have changed considerably since pre-pandemic times. For example, to cope with staff shortages, some bars and night clubs have resorted to pre-mixing cocktails in batches to save time. This trend works against experienced bartenders.

Ironically, however desperate employers are to find workers, many are unwilling to adjust their ways and expectations, refusing to raise wages to competitive levels and placing additional demands on employees, such as new on-call schedules.

Nevertheless, the tables have turned. Before the labor market shifted, employers would ask job candidates, “What makes you a good fit for this company?” Now, it’s the other way around: “Let me tell you why our company is a good fit for you.”

4. ROBOTS SNUB PROMISING CANDIDATES​In spite of it being a job seeker’s labor market, many candidates cannot find a job. Blame the robots.

Seeking to streamline their job application processes, more companies are using automated screening systems that exclude candidates who are not a near perfect fit “on paper.” According to a Harvard Business School study, nearly half of employers say they automatically reject candidates who have not worked in more than six months, regardless of the circumstances.

Job seekers apply to job postings assuming that a human being will read their applications and resumes. That’s usually not the case these days. More than 90% of major employers are using automated screening systems to process job applications, Harvard Business School reported.

These systems use algorithms that can weed out unqualified and qualified candidates. Even using a wrong word or not using the exact right ones can eliminate a promising candidate. Consequently, despite having college degrees and decades of experience in suitable roles, many candidates are getting rejected within hours of filling out online job applications.

5. RETAINING TOP PERFORMERS​At a time when hiring has become so difficult, employers should focus a bit more on retaining their good employees. This requires examining their corporate culture, compensation packages, perks and company policies from the perspective of retaining, rather than just attracting, employees.

One popular retention effort is to conduct “stay” interviews as a preventative step to stop their best talent from quitting. These informal check-in conversations take place every few months to discuss anything that could prevent employees from thriving at work.

6. LOW WAGES TURN OFF JOB SEEKERS​The No. 1 reason businesses struggle to fill open jobs is that wages are too low, according to a survey of more than 3,000 hourly workers conducted by employer payment platform Branch. Fear of exposure to Covid-19 at work came in second with 46% of the vote.

Sixty-eight percent of the employees surveyed agreed that people can earn more from unemployment benefits and stimulus checks than from working for the retailers, hotels and restaurants that are desperate for workers.

WORKERS LIKELY TO HAVE UPPER HAND IN 2022​How long can this superheated job market last? The short-term outlook for the labor market suggests that workers are likely to continue to have considerable bargaining power in 2022. Even when more job candidates enter the labor market as Covid-19 concerns subside and childcare options increase, demand for workers seems likely to continue to outpace supply for the rest of the year, Indeed Hiring Lab reported.










						Top hiring challenges for 2022: why it's so hard to fill jobs right now
					

As we move past disruptive Covid-19-related restrictions, new hiring challenges have emerged. With a record number of job openings and a la...




					brendamarreropr.com


----------



## Quirky (18 May 2022)

How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?


I'm really curious how many people actually make it to pension age in the CAF?  I imagine a substantial portion never actually collect a pension due to many reasons.

As for the benefits, I can't even get a bloody back massage. I have to deal with absolute garbage like BGRS every few years and I can't get timely preventative medical care.  The benefits are over-rated and are being continuously watered down.


----------



## Quirky (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> As for the benefits, I can't even get a bloody back massage.



Get a wife with massage benefits. 😝


----------



## daftandbarmy (18 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm really curious how many people actually make it to pension age in the CAF?  I imagine a substantial portion never actually collect a pension due to many reasons.
> 
> As for the benefits, I can't even get a bloody back massage. I have to deal with absolute garbage like BGRS every few years and I can't get timely preventative medical care.  The benefits are over-rated and are being continuously watered down.



'Benefits' and 'job security' are a part of the scam they run so they can treat you poorly, and pay you chump change, without having to worry as much about you quitting for another job.

Independence and self-agency are the best cure for that


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?



About as many that will fine you for not having a haircut or send you to jail for telling your boss to **** off 😎


----------



## lenaitch (18 May 2022)

mariomike said:


> The CAF ranks high on the 2022 list of,  "Most respected occupations in Canada".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a retired police officer, it always hurts to loose out the firefighters.  Our profession needs to start rescuing more kittens in trees.  I suppose there is some cold comfort in beating out car salespersons.

This has an obvious Covid angle to it.  It would me interesting to compare it to a pre-Covid survey.


Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?


In terms of recruiting or being attractive to the workforce, how many of hiring age are even thinking about pension or benefits?  I know in my 20s I wasn't.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (18 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Benefits' and 'job security' are a part of the scam they run so they can treat you poorly, and pay you chump change, without having to worry as much about you quitting for another job.
> 
> Independence and self-agency are the best cure for that


Pretty much!


----------



## RangerRay (18 May 2022)

It’s not just the military suffering recruiting problems. 20 years ago in my profession there would be 300 candidates for one position opening and hopefuls would work seasonally for 10 years before that elusive full-time position opened up. Potential recruits relished the chance for adventure in a remote part of the province. Now, we can’t hire enough recruits to make up for retirements, we can’t hire enough seasonal staff to fill seasonal vacancies. Add to that no one wants to go to remote postings and where once you could offer adventure in lieu of high pay, we now offer increased work load and chronic understaffing to go with the relative low pay.  And we wonder why no one wants to work for us. 🤔


----------



## Grimey (18 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Benefits' and 'job security' are a part of the scam they run so they can treat you poorly, and pay you chump change, without having to worry as much about you quitting for another job.


Not so much a scam as a sop from my current employer to appear attractive against private (and tbh) better paying public sector wage scales.  The problem is, and it maybe finally dawning on the brain trust, a young person starting out and who needs to pay rent or for the lucky few, put money down on a home, could give a flying fcuk about a defined benefit pension plan.  Twenty-five years down the road maybe, or when kids are in the picture.  Right now I have good people voting with their feet, and it’s increasingly difficult to back-fill.


----------



## RocketRichard (18 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> At least 'Actors' didn't even make the list, which shows an unnerving degree of wisdom


Yes, but teachers are quite high on the list this countering the narrative and attitudes of many in this august forum.


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> About as many that will fine you for not having a haircut or send you to jail for telling your boss to **** off 😎


----------



## Good2Golf (19 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Ironically, however desperate employers are to find workers, many are unwilling to adjust their ways and expectations, refusing to raise wages to competitive levels and placing additional demands on employees, such as new on-call schedules.



CAF, thinking this is an honorable and worthy maintenance of tradition, takes a self-congratulatory bow…as the true issue sails by overhead.




Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?





Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm really curious how many people actually make it to pension age in the CAF?  I imagine a substantial portion never actually collect a pension due to many reasons.



Even Japanese work ethic has changed from the ‘live your life in one company and that golden egg pension’ to a more varied career.

Whatever makes the CAF think that a 25-year DB pension is either desired by the target demographics, or even competitive with the developing workforce mindset makes one wonder.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> As for the benefits, I can't even get a bloody back massage. I have to deal with absolute garbage like BGRS every few years and I can't get timely preventative medical care.  The benefits are over-rated and are being continuously watered down.


…which compounds the ‘loosing/lost touch’ factor with the CAF’s HR mindset…’expect more, give less’ is not the marque of an ‘employer of choice.’ 🙄


----------



## Weinie (19 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> CAF, thinking this is an honorable and worthy maintenance of tradition, takes a self-congratulatory bow…as the true issue sails by overhead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see what you did there.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> …which compounds the ‘loosing/lost touch’ factor with the CAF’s HR mindset…’expect more, give less’ is not the marque of an ‘employer of choice.’ 🙄



And that's the kicker.  I don't think people mind hard work and sacrifice.  They just expect a fair remuneration for the effort. 

Correct me if my wrong but does the TBS not set our pay and benefits ?  For some reason I feel like it's really not in our control.


----------



## btrudy (19 May 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> And that's the kicker.  I don't think people mind hard work and sacrifice.  They just expect a fair remuneration for the effort.
> 
> Correct me if my wrong but does the TBS not set our pay and benefits ?  For some reason I feel like it's really not in our control.



People need to stop pretending like Treasury Board is some sort of immutable force of nature. Or, anything other than another branch of the government.  We're employed by the government. 

Like... if you go ask Dad for something, him telling you that Mom won't let him doesn't lead to a satisfying answer. If we're having retention issues because of pay and PLD, that's a problem for the government to solve. I, as a service member, aren't going to nod my head and accept the fact that the CAF can't talk TBS into helping to fix the problem any more than I'd accept that, I dunno, that the Engineers can't talk the Log guys into getting that part we need. 

It's a problem that the organization as a whole needs to fix, or we'll keep bleeding people. The fact that we've seen no movement whatsoever on the issue is a very clear sign that the organization as a whole doesn't really care about the fact that we are bleeding people. 

And every service member should be taking that lesson to heart: loyalty is a two way street, and if your employer doesn't appear to be giving a shit about you, then you sure as hell shouldn't be giving a shit about them.


----------



## Booter (19 May 2022)

TB has acted disconnected from the public stance of the government. I think it’s an oversimplification to think that it’s a matter of telling the government that TB isn’t listening- I can think of several areas where the government has made one comment, with regards to the need for compensation, and the follow on with TB isn’t in step.

Maybe you’re suggesting something else and I didn’t sleep enough.

I will agree that the first steps to doing something is honesty on our part. Instead of play nice and maybe next year it’ll get dealt with,

But really…is
PLD why you’re hemorrhaging?


----------



## Quirky (19 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> In terms of recruiting or being attractive to the workforce, how many of hiring age are even thinking about pension or benefits?  I know in my 20s I wasn't.



I did, the recruiter told me I could "retire" at 43 and not pay for school. My parents were ecstatic that I joined, they reinvested my college money into property in BC. This was in the early 2000s, you can only imagine how much values have gone up. Basic training was a joke and I didn't find it particularly challenging, maybe living with billet families playing hockey in my late teens helped. Most kids these days can't see or plan past their day, nevermind 25 years. The military was different back then too, so I don't know if I'd join in 2022.



btrudy said:


> It's a problem that the organization as a whole needs to fix, or we'll keep bleeding people. The fact that we've seen no movement whatsoever on the issue is a very clear sign that the organization as a whole doesn't really care about the fact that we are bleeding people.



The military saves appox $1.3B annually on salary alone because we are understaffed. (figure 20k people x $65k/y) Where is that money going?


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 May 2022)

It's a hot job market out there and most government jobs find it hard to compete, like in the US military too apparently.

Oh, and some of the people I talk to - Canadians - think their kids are all going to be drafted and sent to war against Russia so there's that (ridiculous) perception:


Military Recruiting Is Increasingly AWOL. Can We Fix It?​

But the larger issue with recruiting is that fewer and fewer Americans now see value in joining the armed forces. Young people typically join for either economic or patriotic reasons, or a combination of the two.

For those motivated by pay and benefits, companies like Amazon are offering packages that include pay of at least $15 an hour, fully funded college tuition, health care, and 20 weeks of fully paid parental leave.

Conversely, a brand new Army private, assuming he or she works a 40-hour week (which is unlikely; most work 60+) earns about $11 an hour.

Those who might normally be inspired to serve anyway are likely deterred by the messages they are receiving today (or not receiving) from American society.

A recent Gallup poll showed that between 2017 and 2022, Americans who believe military officers possess “high ethics” declined by a full 10 points, down to 61 percent, the lowest since they began measuring.

The very public disaster that took place with the Afghanistan withdrawal further contributed to the public’s loss in confidence in the military and its leaders.

For those who watch TV, young people can easily find fundraising commercials featuring veterans tragically wounded, but little in the way of the virtues of military service.









						Military Recruiting Is Increasingly AWOL. Can We Fix It?
					

It’s national budget time in Washington, so the conversation on Capitol Hill is focused on numbers. But an important number is being overlooked, one that affects our ability to defend ourselves. At a time when threats abroad are growing, America’s ability to recruit the volunteers needed to...




					www.heritage.org


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It's a hot job market out there and most government jobs find it hard to compete, like in the US military too apparently.
> 
> Oh, and some of the people I talk to - Canadians - think their kids are all going to be drafted and sent to war against Russia so there's that (ridiculous) perception:
> 
> ...


The 40% pension after 20 years (in my case) was a drawing card when I joined at 17 (YMMV). More important was the ability to do cool and adventurous stuff. An employer can get away with a lot in terms of poor pay and benefits if the job is fun and interesting. Just saying….


----------



## SupersonicMax (19 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> People need to stop pretending like Treasury Board is some sort of immutable force of nature. Or, anything other than another branch of the government.  We're employed by the government.
> 
> Like... if you go ask Dad for something, him telling you that Mom won't let him doesn't lead to a satisfying answer. If we're having retention issues because of pay and PLD, that's a problem for the government to solve. I, as a service member, aren't going to nod my head and accept the fact that the CAF can't talk TBS into helping to fix the problem any more than I'd accept that, I dunno, that the Engineers can't talk the Log guys into getting that part we need.
> 
> ...


DND and the CAF are talking with the TBS (at fairly high levels) about those issues. But the TBS needs to be convinced.  And that’s the difficult part.


----------



## Furniture (19 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> I did, the recruiter told me I could "retire" at 43 and not pay for school. My parents were ecstatic that I joined, they reinvested my college money into property in BC. This was in the early 2000s, you can only imagine how much values have gone up. Basic training was a joke and I didn't find it particularly challenging, maybe living with billet families playing hockey in my late teens helped. Most kids these days can't see or plan past their day, nevermind 25 years. The military was different back then too, so I don't know if I'd join in 2022.


It is a similar story for me, I joined knowing that a pension was the end goal. I didn't want to be like the people I saw around my local area who worked into their 70s, not because they loved the work, but because they couldn't afford to retire. 



Booter said:


> I will agree that the first steps to doing something is honesty on our part. Instead of play nice and maybe next year it’ll get dealt with,
> 
> But really…is
> PLD why you’re hemorrhaging?



I get the impression that the CAF has tried the "leak" to the press method of getting something through TB, and it has backfired, so now they are trying playing nice.

PLD isn't the only issue, but it is important. When I moved from Esquimalt to Trenton I lost $13K a year in benefits. My cost of living decreased slightly, but definitely not by $13K a year... The difference in lifestyle based on the whims of a posting plot/plugging holes, is an issue that needs to be resolved. 

A friend of mine is releasing because he simply can't justify the expense, and hassle of living in Ottawa, when he can afford a better lifestyle back on the East coast with his pension, and a part time job.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 May 2022)

Have all TB staff pegged to fill in the missing ranks of the CF if needed, that might give them some incentive to ensure that there are enough troops. TB and their polices are the cause of much grief and not just for the CF.


----------



## dimsum (19 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Have all TB staff pegged to fill in the missing ranks of the CF if needed, that might give them some incentive to ensure that there are enough troops. TB and their polices are the cause of much grief and not just for the CF.


Are you suggesting conscription?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> Are you suggesting conscription?


Selective conscription, it could solve a lot of issues, they and the politicians can do mine clearance, to make it safe for the children and the environment.


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## Good2Golf (19 May 2022)

TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President.  So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP.  TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.





__





						About the Treasury Board of Canada - Canada.ca
					

Information on the mandate, mission and members of the Treasury Board.




					www.canada.ca


----------



## OldSolduer (19 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President.  So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP.  TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And is the preeminent board. In the USA SecDef and SecState are the POTUS chief advisors.

Here in Canada is Chrystia advising the young whelp......tis to weep.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (19 May 2022)

The fact 40% of the population would consider the CAF is actually outstanding considering how many I have met who have questioned why I would want to even be part of the CAF.

Instead of focusing on pensions, or pay, focus on the things that the CAF can offer that no one else can. Bring back a work hard, play hard lifestyle, focus on creating camaraderie instead of basically trying to make the CAF a other civilian job without the benefits of being a civilian job.

As a organization we should be seeking out young individuals. War is a unfriendly business and being physically fit is a large part of it. The older you get the harder that becomes. Our military is old, it recruits a lot of older people. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can mean those joining later in life are only doing so because they can't find better civvy side. Not because they want to be there, rather they have to be there.

We are currently trying to build a organization focused on families when the military isn’t a good fit for families as a job and nothing we do shall change that. Just like how being a fly-in maintainer isn’t a good fit for families either. This is another advantage of trying to focus on young people is they don’t have these strings attached to them. Not saying you can't have a family but as many find out, it is hard to balance a military career with one.

The Americans and British both do well with their systems which are designed mainly for people to do 3-12 years in then have a nice life. Instead we see everyone who leaves as a personal insult and a failure in the system. Maybe its worth exploring the idea that we don't need everyone to stay in 25 years, and having short term sign ups aren't a bad thing.

Some things we could do to encourage people to join/stay are: Give anyone who serves 4 years a paid education if they choose to leave. Give anyone who signs up a write off on their student loans (likely would get a bunch of mid 20s recruits who have realized their degree qualifies them to work minimum wage but have 80k of debt). Put shacks in on base and encourage troops to live in them rent free or for a much reduced standard rate (solves base location problems for housing costs, could also get rid of PLD, I don't care what the treasury board policy is, policy can be changed). Let sailors live on ship again.

Cut the pension years down to 20 again, 25 makes people leave sooner, many are willing to suffer through it for 20 years though. Speed up recruitment, you wait you lose out (this is a government job problem, no I am not looking for a job two years after I applied and if I was, it is questionable the quality of candidate I would be).

Young people want a party/experiences, doesn’t matter which generation it is. The more we move away from that, the less younger people will join/be retained and the worse it shall be.


----------



## lenaitch (19 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President.  So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP.  TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



With the concentration of power in the PMO, TB and Cabinet will only really care if the PMP cares, and the PMO will only really care if the 'votes calculus' makes it worthwhile and/or they get embarrassed.  Telford et al likely figure 'we've announced gobs of money for the military - there is no pleasing you people'.  Even at the Ministerial level, I doubt this is on her radar.

Assuming similarities between the federal and Ontario provincial system, I have worked on projects that arose from the Premier making a public announcement of $X million for a new initiative, then having our sweated over, detailed a fully-costed submission to Management Board (TB) turned down because they didn't feel the business case was strong enough.  Apparently 'cuz the Premier said so', isn't sufficient.  By then, the Premier has got the media and has moved on.  What was worthy of an announcement is now yesterday's news.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 May 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> TB is quite literally a standing committee of cabinet — several senior MPs, one of whom is the Board’s President.  So the Board directly executes the will of the PM/PMO managing spending, issuing delegated Orders in Council and managing the operation of the federal public service, including pay rates and agreements with federal public servants, the CAF and RCMP.  TBS per se, is the bureaucratic staff stricture that supports the Board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The TBS staff looks down upon everyone, PS, DND, citizens. They are the keepers of the pursue and they answer only to their masters. They come in, eff things up, then leave, repeat as required. Adherence to policy is the only thing they care about, regardless of the outcome.


----------



## Good2Golf (19 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The TBS staff looks down upon everyone, PS, DND, citizens. They are the keepers of the pursue and they answer only to their masters. They come in, eff things up, then leave, repeat as required. Adherence to policy is the only thing they care about, regardless of the outcome.


To be fair, there are some really smart folks in TBS and for the most part, I think at the lower to mid-levels, they’re altruistically trying to ensure the GoC gets value for money. Higher levels are well into the influence-sphere of the PM/PMO.  Can they play red light, green light?  Oh yeah.  Is it vindictive?  No, I don’t think so.  DND had had some real «bêtises» in the past that have really put a strain in the Department’s credibility, so it’s not a one-way street for why things don’t seem to advance the way most folks think they should.   I’ve seen cases where DND folks thought that an argumentative approach was warranted…hint: “Alex, I’ll take ‘Things you should never do’ for $1000”


----------



## CountDC (20 May 2022)

Pension and job security was a factor for me.    Most of the new members I talk to only have short term goals - job experience, cheap/free education and work experience so they can move on to the civilian career they really want.


----------



## Quirky (20 May 2022)

With Covid sorta behind us and seeing how willing governments are to shut down societies, having a pandemic-proof salary should be on everyone's mind.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 May 2022)

Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years.  Not sure exactly how.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (20 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years.  Not sure exactly how.


The CAF seems to be the only military on the planet that can make going fast, blowing things up and shooting automatic weapons unattractive to teenagers…


----------



## YZT580 (20 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Should be a way to sell how service can help a person grow from teenage high school graduate to mature confident competent adult capable of leading other adults (small teams) in a few years.  Not sure exactly how.


first off is by selling the notion to school guidance people as a viable alternative to 4 years to a B.A. in humanities.  Many have drunk of the society owes me Kool-Aid and look down upon the military as right wing bigots.  Teachers have a significant influence over young minds.  The press doesn't help in that regard either.  That is a steep uphill climb to overcome.


----------



## Remius (20 May 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> The CAF seems to be the only military on the planet that can make going fast, blowing things up and shooting automatic weapons unattractive to teenagers…


We aren’t the only country in the world struggling to recruit.









						The Army Keeps Boosting Recruiting Bonuses as It Struggles to Find New Soldiers
					

The Army has become more aggressive with major recruitment bonuses, especially for recruits who elect to ship out to basic training right away.




					www.military.com
				












						Army offers $50k to new recruits as it struggles to find numbers
					

The Army didn’t hit its recruiting targets in 2021




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).

Due to what society is giving us to work with we may have to slash standards and expectations if we want to get our numbers up.


----------



## Booter (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).
> 
> Due to what society is giving us to work with we may have to slash standards and expectations if we want to get our numbers up.


This can be seen in almost every recruit program I can think of currently. It’s a society thing- and it’s not me as an old man shaking my fist at the clouds. The data of three programs I’m familiar with shows we re at the height of training failure/attrition while at the lowest threshold to get TO the course.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 May 2022)

> There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).



An alternative to reducing standards/expectations is to increase close supervision, austerity, and training designed to improve the raw material.  Might mean more staff, more time, different location.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).
> 
> Due to what society is giving us to work with we may have to slash standards and expectations if we want to get our numbers up.


That is squarely on all of us. WE - us - have spoiled a few generations with "entitlements" and allowing them to sit in the basement playing COD when they should have been playing a sport of some sort. We have taught people they have rights but no mention of responsibilities a citizen has - like just being a good person. Our TV shows reflect it - the Kardashians come to mind -but they are just a symptom. 

So we take these sullen spoilt brats and try to train them to undergo some  deprivation and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).
> 
> Due to what society is giving us to work with we may have to slash standards and expectations if we want to get our numbers up.



One of the key issues is that this used to be a pyramid, now it's a 'Beer Belly' 

And, FWIW, recent feedback I've received from serving Infantry types is that people are leaving in droves because the training is boring, not personally challenging, under resourced and over-hyped.



This


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> One of the key issues is that this used to be a pyramid, now it's a 'Beer Belly'
> 
> And, FWIW, recent feedback I've received from serving Infantry types is that people are leaving in droves because the training is boring, not personally challenging, under resourced and over-hyped.
> 
> ...


Less DLN.... More Gunfighting

There are some good things happening in small places.  I personally like what one of my pals has done at RMC with their Sandhurst and Combat Skills Teams:



One of the OCdts won first place at the SIG Sauer Sponsored International Combat Skills Tournament.  Of course you'll never hear the CAF brag that up, they are too busy putting out this stuff to bother noticing:





__ https://www.facebook.com/100069386191814/posts/302829255373279


----------



## lenaitch (20 May 2022)

Maybe a medal for graduating basic training.  It is the demographic that has grown up with Participation awards for simply showing up.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Maybe a medal for graduating basic training.  It is the demographic that has grown up with Participation awards for simply showing up.



You might be on a great track here. 

People will play the shit out of video games to unlock various achievements in the game which get added to their gamer profile.

Having trackable achievements (c7 range, gas hut, marches, first OCs inspeftion) that can be tracked in some kind of app or data base might be a huge hit.


----------



## lenaitch (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You might be on a great track here.
> 
> People will play the shit out of video games to unlock various achievements in the game which get added to their gamer profile.
> 
> Having trackable achievements (c7 range, gas hut, marches, first OCs inspeftion) that can be tracked in some kind of app or data base might be a huge hit.


Instant (or at least halfways timely) gratification seems to be a hallmark of the current generations.

I'm a bit of financial idiot and the best I can figure, Bitcoin et al are simply a high-value digital prizes; you solve a complex problem and get the digital prize in the digital Crackerjack box.  If we had to slog for years to do it with pen and paper, nobody would do it.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> You might be on a great track here.
> 
> People will play the shit out of video games to unlock various achievements in the game which get added to their gamer profile.
> 
> Having trackable achievements (c7 range, gas hut, marches, first OCs inspeftion) that can be tracked in some kind of app or data base might be a huge hit.


LMAO we should give unlockables for IBTS.... like a real crap version of rocket league or call of duty 🤣


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> LMAO we should give unlockables for IBTS.... like a real crap version of rocket league or call of duty 🤣



They can unlock pieces of civilian kit, vertical grips, and paint their rifles.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> They can unlock pieces of civilian kit, vertical grips, and paint their rifles.


Some would refer to that as going "Full Chechen"  🤣


----------



## kev994 (20 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Having trackable achievements (c7 range, gas hut, marches, first OCs inspeftion) that can be tracked in some kind of app or data base might be a huge hit.


We could call that app something like Monitor Mass?


----------



## kev994 (20 May 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Adherence to policy is the only thing they care about, regardless of the outcome.


This reminds me of the lady who had to head a press conference on how we ended up with the F35 15 years and a ton of money after cancelling the sole source. All she could say was PROCESS!!! PROCESS!!! We had to do the PROCESS!!!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 May 2022)

Or stop thinking spoiled brat high school and Uni grads have something over the dropout who would give anything to have a chance of a future......oh wait, that kind of thinking went out in the early 80's.  Fortunately I was in that boat in the late 70's.....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (20 May 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Or stop thinking spoiled brat high school and Uni grads have something over the dropout who would give anything to have a chance of a future......oh wait, that kind of thinking went out in the early 80's.  Fortunately I was in that boat in the late 70's.....


Most of my NCMs are more educated than I am.  The entire, "NCMs are uneducated narrative" is so bloody outdated it isn't even funny.


----------



## brihard (21 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?


300k federal public servants, 400k teachers, 300k nurses, 70k police, lots of other public sector at municipal and provincial levels with reasonably comparable pensions and benefits packages… many of these have pension transfer agreements between various funds.


----------



## mariomike (21 May 2022)

Quirky said:


> How many jobs in Canada offer the pension and benefit package that the CF offers?



I've been an OMERS member for 50 years, come September.





						Supplemental Plan
					

The OMERS Supplemental Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics offers optional benefits for members of the police sector, firefighters and paramedics. As an OMERS employer, you may offer a benefit to a specific class or classes of employees.




					www.omers.com
				




Nine month Retirement Gratuity.
70% defined benefit pension.
Full extended health and dental benefits when you retire, until age 65. The city pays 100% of the premiums.
After you turn 65, a Health Care Spending Account ( HCSA ) of $3,500 per year, payable until age 75.
Group Life Insurance – 2 x annual salary ends at age 65.
The city provides a $5,000 lifetime insurance policy after that for burial.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 May 2022)

Training always did have unlockable things.  "If you achieve X, you get to leave barracks this Saturday."


----------



## btrudy (21 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> There are some disheartening stories coming out of basic training and BMOQ regarding recruits behavior, sense of entitlement, and physical prowess (or lack there of).
> 
> Due to what society is giving us to work with we may have to slash standards and expectations if we want to get our numbers up.



Or we can make the job better, in order to entice more people to join (allowing us to be picky about who makes it through), and keep those that we do have.


----------



## Furniture (21 May 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Or stop thinking spoiled brat high school and Uni grads have something over the dropout who would give anything to have a chance of a future......oh wait, that kind of thinking went out in the early 80's.  Fortunately I was in that boat in the late 70's.....


I agree 100%, we need to spend less time chasing the top 10% of each grad class, and start courting the middle 50%. The kids not quite at scholarship level, but smart, and capable... just lacking direction. 



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Most of my NCMs are more educated than I am.  The entire, "NCMs are uneducated narrative" is so bloody outdated it isn't even funny.



I don't qualify to join my current occupation. I've been in 21 years, and been promoted to PO1, but I couldn't walk into a recruiting centre and be recruited as a Met Tech.... Part of the CAFs problem is we got greedy in 2008-20011 when everybody wanted to be in the CAF, and failed to realize we couldn't be so picky anymore.


----------



## dimsum (21 May 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> That is squarely on all of us. WE - us - have spoiled a few generations with "entitlements" and allowing them to sit in the basement playing COD when they should have been playing a sport of some sort.


I'll disagree there.  

I would have been one of those kids if COD was a thing when I was younger.  I didn't play sports until I was in my 20s/30s when I actually found one I really liked.  I don't play much myself, but ESports is definitely a thing and it's to our detriment if we (as the CAF trying to recruit from society) don't acknowledge that.  

Speaking of outdated stereotypes, the "fat neckbeard gamer living in mom's basement" is also due for the bin.  Folks like Henry Cavill (of The Witcher fame) have changed the public's perception of "gamer" in the past few years.




lenaitch said:


> Maybe a medal for graduating basic training.  It is the demographic that has grown up with Participation awards for simply showing up.


We already have that.  It's called "being able to wear your uniform and not getting called out for Stolen Valour".


----------



## Remius (21 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'll disagree there.
> 
> I would have been one of those kids if COD was a thing when I was younger.  I didn't play sports until I was in my 20s/30s when I actually found one I really liked.  I don't play much myself, but ESports is definitely a thing and it's to our detriment if we (as the CAF trying to recruit from society) don't acknowledge that.
> 
> ...


Your argument highlights exactly what one of the problems being demonstrated by some here. 

Older people don’t understand younger people.  They don’t know what motivates them, they don’t know how to speak their language and can’t fathom why none of them think like they do. 

It’s worse now because there has likely never been a tech disparity as wide between generations than there is now. 

The CAF hasn’t caught up on how to harness and develop new and emerging talent.  By the time we actually figure out how to really use cyber operators and drone operators the real talent will be working civy side making three times the salary we will offer. 

The issue isn’t them.  It’s us.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (21 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Your argument highlights exactly what one of the problems being demonstrated by some here.
> 
> Older people don’t understand younger people.  They don’t know what motivates them, they don’t know how to speak their language and can’t fathom why none of them think like they do.
> 
> ...


Having been on forefront of this technological disparity, I totally agree. 

The amount of senior officers and NCMs that are technophobic, even in 2022, is a lot higher than you think. Now have these folks setting policy, working on projects, and developing strategy/doctrine for how we employ the latest cutting edge technology.

It's a depressing scene.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (21 May 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'll disagree there.
> 
> I would have been one of those kids if COD was a thing when I was younger.  I didn't play sports until I was in my 20s/30s when I actually found one I really liked.  I don't play much myself, but ESports is definitely a thing and it's to our detriment if we (as the CAF trying to recruit from society) don't acknowledge that.
> 
> ...


I am a sports guy, but.....

I'm also a pretty big NERD when it comes to gaming.  I play a lot of strategy games and was, until fairly recently, a pretty prolific Rocket League player.

Rocket League is great for hand-eye coordination... I'd probably make a great mini-UAV pilot.  Strap a bomb to it and I'd be popping tank turrets in no time 😁


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 May 2022)

> I agree 100%, we need to spend less time chasing the top 10% of each grad class, and start courting the middle 50%.



Part of what the Forces must absolutely be able to do is train nearly any person above the fifth percentile (or so) to do a useful military job.  While it's reasonable to chase the best prospects available in peacetime, the risk is forgetting how to work with all of the people available.


----------



## Booter (21 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Your argument highlights exactly what one of the problems being demonstrated by some here.
> 
> Older people don’t understand younger people.  They don’t know what motivates them, they don’t know how to speak their language and can’t fathom why none of them think like they do.
> 
> ...


This is why we keep trying to sell the CF and it’s pension to a generation that does a job for a couple years and then does something else.

I remember my dad telling me I “had” to get a job with a pension. We were coal mining east coast people- federal service was the lottery. You do your twenty, take your pension, move home, and live like a king.

When I talk to the boy he isn’t motivated by my statements about pensions. He also doesn’t believe there will be anywhere you can live like a king in twenty years 🤷‍♀️


----------



## btrudy (21 May 2022)

Remius said:


> Your argument highlights exactly what one of the problems being demonstrated by some here.
> 
> Older people don’t understand younger people.  They don’t know what motivates them, they don’t know how to speak their language and can’t fathom why none of them think like they do.
> 
> ...





OldSolduer said:


> That is squarely on all of us. WE - us - have spoiled a few generations with "entitlements" and allowing them to sit in the basement playing COD when they should have been playing a sport of some sort. We have taught people they have rights but no mention of responsibilities a citizen has - like just being a good person. Our TV shows reflect it - the Kardashians come to mind -but they are just a symptom.
> 
> So we take these sullen spoilt brats and try to train them to undergo some  deprivation and sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.


Even if the "problem" was with younger people, which is not a premise that I even remotely accept (Heck, in matters of condoning or perpetrating bigotry or sexual harassment, the Gen Z is leaps and bounds better than even the Millenials, let alone Gen X and Boomers), the issue is always going to be us, because a military needs to work with the population it's got.

Are Gen Z recruits less likely to want to blindly follow orders without any reasonable explanation for why those orders are being issued? Absolutely. Are they less willing to tolerate being told to do things for no particular reason? Toque and Glove flowchart anyone? Yes.

Do basically all Gen Z feel "entitled" to being treated with dignity and respect at all times? Yes. 

Is any of this a bad thing? No.

Tolerating petty bullshit might be something that is required based upon the manner in which the CAF has operated and currently operates, but it's not actually something that is required in order to conduct operations effectively. We don't actually want a top-down approach without any input from the people actually carrying out the orders in question; we all see how well that's working with Russia's military after all. 

The CAF as an institution is going to have to pivot the manner in which it operates in order to more effectively engage with its personnel at all levels. But when we do, we'll be more effective as a result.


----------



## brihard (21 May 2022)

Booter said:


> This is why we keep trying to sell the CF and it’s pension to a generation that does a job for a couple years and then does something else.


Ah, but _why_ do they do a job for a couple years and then move to something else?

I’ll suggest it might be because pay is probably not great to begin with, the only way to see meaningful pay increases is to negotiate them with a new employer, and when you’re living paycheck to paycheck it’s hard to wrap your head around drawing a pension 30 years from now. You’re too busy doing what you’ve got to do to get by now. Add to that that few of these jobs are likely ‘callings’ that inspire anyone to look at them as a career.

There are things CAF can and should offer to draw people into a meaningful _career_ that they can grow in for their working life. CAF at least offers that- decent salary growth if you keep showing up and advance from time to time. And if you pursue the option of commissioning down the road, you’re set. Most Canadians can’t wrap their heads around the notion of earning what even a Captain makes.

If CAF can modernize attitudes within the institution and get better at treating adult volunteers like, well… adults who volunteered to serve their country, then there’s no reason it cannot be a damned attractive employer of choice for the whole-career cadre that the institution needs. And at the same time, better advertising of benefits like the Education and Training Benefit and Career Transition Services could help to attract more ‘short timers’ to fill the ranks while they figure out what they want to do when they grow up. Some of them will decide to stick around, too.


----------



## btrudy (21 May 2022)

brihard said:


> Ah, but _why_ do they do a job for a couple years and then move to something else?
> 
> I’ll suggest it might be because pay is probably not great to begin with, the only way to see meaningful pay increases is to negotiate them with a new employer, and when you’re living paycheck to paycheck it’s hard to wrap your head around drawing a pension 30 years from now. You’re too busy doing what you’ve got to do to get by now. Add to that that few of these jobs are likely ‘callings’ that inspire anyone to look at them as a career.
> 
> ...


The entire Gen Z cohort and most millenials are well aware that, in general, the best way to advance your career is to jump ship when there's a better opportunity presented, since companies are slow and reluctant to promote and/or give raises; you need to leave your employer for that.

This _isn't terrible _for most employers, as they're largely able to capture highly skilled and trained workers by simply offering them a reasonably better deal than what their current employers were underpaying them with.

The CAF on the other hand, can't take advantage of that, because we only ever hire at the entry level.

But we're also not doing anything to stem the flow of people leaving. We get people in, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training them up, and then watch as they leave for an employer (well, a series of employers) who'll treat and pay them better.

Now, I'm not advocating that we start hiring Cpls and Sgts and Majors. But we need to stem the revolving door; otherwise all we're doing is subsidizing private industry by handing them a bunch of people who we spent a lot of money to develop.

And we need to do this by ensuring that at all rank levels, our compensation and benefits are competitive enough that people would find it hard to find a better offer from other employers.


----------



## kev994 (21 May 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Most of my NCMs are more educated than I am.  The entire, "NCMs are uneducated narrative" is so bloody outdated it isn't even funny.


I know a Sgt Flight Engineer who has 2 Masters Degrees. He just likes what he’s doing.


----------



## dapaterson (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> *Now, I'm not advocating that we start hiring Cpls and Sgts and Majors.* But we need to stem the revolving door; otherwise all we're doing is subsidizing private industry by handing them a bunch of people who we spent a lot of money to develop.


In certain occupations, in certain positions, we certainly should be doing that.  Lateral entry with real world experience should be A Thing, beyond the "instant Cpl on BMQ grad" for certain entry plans / "lawyer or Dr with no training is an insta-Capt".


----------



## TacticalTea (21 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> One of the key issues is that this used to be a pyramid, now it's a 'Beer Belly'
> 
> And, FWIW, recent feedback I've received from serving Infantry types is that people are leaving in droves because the training is boring, not personally challenging, under resourced and over-hyped.
> 
> ...


Not too sure what your pyramid/beer belly point is, care to elaborate?

On this part, though, I think you're touching on something important: 


> the training is boring, not personally challenging, under resourced and over-hyped.


2 years from walking in to the recruitment office to marching onto boot camp is ridiculous. Nobody has that much time to waste and we're losing many people to that. Then, having to spend not weeks but several MONTHS in-between courses, just sitting on your ass is unacceptable. And as you say, even when you do get to the training, the lack of a real challenge can be a significant letdown for many. Over a three year period, I did BMQ, BMOQ, then watched my brother do his BMOQ. The decline in difficulty was appallingly precipitous.

This lack of engagement is driving out a lot of people, young people, who feel like they're wasting away their best years.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 May 2022)

dapaterson said:


> In certain occupations, in certain positions, we certainly should be doing that.  Lateral entry with real world experience should be A Thing, beyond the "instant Cpl on BMQ grad" for certain entry plans / "lawyer or Dr with no training is an insta-Capt".



Like for the sexist job in the world: data science

More than anything, what data scientists do is make discoveries while swimming in data. It’s their preferred method of navigating the world around them. At ease in the digital realm, they are able to bring structure to large quantities of formless data and make analysis possible. They identify rich data sources, join them with other, potentially incomplete data sources, and clean the resulting set. In a competitive landscape where challenges keep changing and data never stops flowing, data scientists help decision-makers shift from ad hoc analysis to an ongoing conversation with data.










						Data Scientist: The Sexiest Job of the 21st Century
					

Back in the 1990s, computer engineer and Wall Street “quant” were the hot occupations in business. Today data scientists are the hires firms are competing to make. As companies wrestle with unprecedented volumes and types of information, demand for these experts has raced well ahead of supply...




					hbr.org


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Not too sure what your pyramid/beer belly point is, care to elaborate?
> 
> On this part, though, I think you're touching on something important:
> 
> ...



Like many big organizations the military is hunting for a fast shrinking pool of young people. 20-50 years ago there were far more young people and it was easier to find them and attract them to jobs with relatively unsophisticated tools, like posters and mall displays. The bottom of the pyramid was much bigger than the middle or top so it was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Now, there are just not enough bodies for all the jobs set up for younger people like, you know, #2 rifleman.

Data scientists know how to do that because it's all about understanding, and managing the behaviours and motivations of, a large number of micro-demographic groups for recruiting as well as for longer term retention, which is more important in many ways as an employee has had alot of time and money invested in them by the organization. Talking about the behaviours of 'Gen Z' as if millions of people in that generation will all act the same way is a huge mistake.

If the height of our analytics driven activities include continuing to send recruiters to high schools because it's what we've always done, the CAF is probably doomed to lose the competition for fresh meat.


----------



## YZT580 (21 May 2022)

kev994 said:


> I know a Sgt Flight Engineer who has 2 Masters Degrees. He just likes what he’s doing.


and that says it all.  I was employed for 30 plus years by TC and it was a rare day that I started considering doing anything else.  Except during contract time it was a joy to go in to work.  People don't change jobs because X offers more than Y unless that person is dissatisfied with what he is doing in X. People are exiting the military in droves because their employer shows very little respect for what they do and consistently treats them like crap.  When it takes decades to decide on a pair of boots or a new pistol, when you see people promoted because they have learned to play the system instead of mastering their profession, when your parts supply for your supposedly state of the art combat system is the local wrecking yard it doesn't take much to lose interest.  Couple that with the callous manner in which family is treated or rather time with family is routinely abused and regardless of how much you increase salaries you are still going to bleed bodies.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Or we can make the job better, in order to entice more people to join (allowing us to be picky about who makes it through), and keep those that we do have.



Better how? And why are people not joining?

We already have applicants joining who are shocked that they have to be physically fit/physically active. Shocked that they're not just left alone for the first 6 months to a year after joining. Shocked that the needs of the institution are put above what they feel like doing.


----------



## btrudy (21 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Better how? And why are people not joining?


Honestly, I don't think "people not joining" is the problem. Or at least it's not "people not wanting to join". But the application process takes an entire year to get in _if you're lucky_.

Our problem isn't getting people interested in the CAF; it's actually getting them enrolled, and then keeping them once they are. 



Jarnhamar said:


> We already have applicants joining who are shocked that they have to be physically fit/physically active.



Eh, that hasn't been my experience. People aren't shocked about having to be physically fit / active. Hell, the FORCE test is simple enough that _it's hard to argue that we actually expect them to be physically fit / active_. What they might be legitimately shocked / annoyed at is that they're forced to do some useless PSP-led bottom-common-denominator group PT, rather than allowing them time to work on achieving their own personal fitness goals.



Jarnhamar said:


> Shocked that they're not just left alone for the first 6 months to a year after joining.



I don't think people are shocked that they're not just left alone after joining. They're frustrated that they're getting in, and then expected to sit around on PAT platoon doing nothing all day because there's a 14 month backlog to get them on their occupational training.

And yes, I would certainly say that if you don't actually have something constructive to do with people who are sitting around doing nothing, then at least let them "work from home". I'd rather they be wasting time playing video games because they like playing video games than wasting time sitting around twiddling their thumbs and growing increasingly resentful to the CAF.



Jarnhamar said:


> Shocked that the needs of the institution are put above what they feel like doing.



I would posit that if we were actually putting the needs of the institution above, well, anything, then we'd be doing more to keep people, as retention is the most serious ongoing crisis the CAF has.

Unfortunately, the CAF exemplifies "can't see the forest for the trees", in the manner in which we tend to treat every small piddly useless make-work tasking as if it's the only thing keeping the Soviets from storming over the north pole. Meanwhile, managing people like this is only strengthening their resolve to get out as soon as they can possibly find better employment.


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## Booter (21 May 2022)

Applications are down across all federal services outside the PS, I’m not exposed to that and quite frankly it looks like witchcraft when I am included.

People aren’t applying- and I think that is true though- the application process is stupid.

Again- giving it resources would help. It’s either a priority or it’s not.

Perhaps a restructuring of the reserves is in order. Like turning the supp reserve into a real thing that means- you go do two days of recerts a year or something.

Canadas reserve forces system, and this is NOT a slight on the incredible work done by the people in it, were a way for individuals to increase their political power- by having a rank, and access to politicians and that life- or by financing the regiments itself.

Eventually it turned into a life support system to fill gaps in an overburdened reg force.

Do three or four years in reg, transition to reserves- then when your life situation isn’t working with it anymore. Transition again to supp with Two days a year in case you’re needed in an emergency. Then you have all these people actually connected to the organization today.

Give resources or priority to getting recruiting into a slick pipe.

Stop telling kids the training is exciting…when the reality is they won’t snap a round off before the new fiscal because money wasn’t planned .


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## daftandbarmy (21 May 2022)

Booter said:


> Stop telling kids the training is exciting…when the reality is they won’t snap a round off before the new fiscal because money wasn’t planned .



No one 'tells' them, they expect to experience what they see in the media. And they should be able to get the toughest kind of training, of course, because we need them to be able to handle the toughest situations in combat.

The fact that the CAF, based on recent conversations with serving members, continually fails to do this to the point that people leave because they are bored/ unchallenged is an appalling failure on various levels.


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## TacticalTea (21 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Talking about the behaviours of 'Gen Z' as if millions of people in that generation will all act the same way is a huge mistake.


I agree. As I've alluded to, I think there's still a large amount of Gen Z's that are active, switched on, and driven individuals, looking for a challenge. No reason we can't convince those kids to get in.


btrudy said:


> Honestly, I don't think "people not joining" is the problem. Or at least it's not "people not wanting to join". But the application process takes an entire year to get in _if you're lucky_.
> 
> Our problem isn't getting people interested in the CAF; it's actually getting them enrolled, and then keeping them once they are.


This.


btrudy said:


> Eh, that hasn't been my experience. People aren't shocked about having to be physically fit / active. Hell, the FORCE test is simple enough that _it's hard to argue that we actually expect them to be physically fit / active_. What they might be legitimately shocked / annoyed at is that they're forced to do some useless PSP-led bottom-common-denominator group PT, rather than allowing them time to work on achieving their own personal fitness goals.


This!


btrudy said:


> I don't think people are shocked that they're not just left alone after joining. They're frustrated that they're getting in, and then expected to sit around on PAT platoon doing nothing all day because there's a 14 month backlog to get them on their occupational training.


Oh yeah. The government is asking for more than we can give. We're in peacetime, there's no reason for operations to be such a detriment to training.


btrudy said:


> And yes, I would certainly say that if you don't actually have something constructive to do with people who are sitting around doing nothing, then at least let them "work from home". I'd rather they be wasting time playing video games because they like playing video games than wasting time sitting around twiddling their thumbs and growing increasingly resentful to the CAF.


I can't describe how much I hate this sort of BS. I'd much rather go home and not collect that day's salary than to waste it doing nothing productive. When my people don't have anything to do, I send them home. If they chronically don't have anything to do, the failure is mine and the organization's, not theirs.


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## Booter (21 May 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> No one 'tells' them, they expect to experience what they see in the media. And they should be able to get the toughest kind of training, of course, because we need them to be able to handle the toughest situations in combat.
> 
> The fact that the CAF, based on recent conversations with serving members, continually fails to do this to the point that people leave because they are bored/ unchallenged is an appalling failure on various levels.


I know what I was told in the recruiting process twice. I also know what the commercials for recruiting look like, they aren’t playing cards hiding from their leaders in them,


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## Jarnhamar (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> Honestly, I don't think "people not joining" is the problem. Or at least it's not "people not wanting to join". But the application process takes an entire year to get in _if you're lucky_.
> 
> Our problem isn't getting people interested in the CAF; it's actually getting them enrolled, and then keeping them once they are.


Couldn't agree more about the application process.



btrudy said:


> Eh, that hasn't been my experience. People aren't shocked about having to be physically fit / active. Hell, the FORCE test is simple enough that _it's hard to argue that we actually expect them to be physically fit / active_. What they might be legitimately shocked / annoyed at is that they're forced to do some useless PSP-led bottom-common-denominator group PT, rather than allowing them time to work on achieving their own personal fitness goals.


Lots of students showing up for course who aren't physically fit or prepared for marching, running, marching with rucksacks. Then it's a quick left turn to the MIR to get no rucking/no marching chits.



btrudy said:


> I don't think people are shocked that they're not just left alone after joining. They're frustrated that they're getting in, and then expected to sit around on PAT platoon doing nothing all day because there's a 14 month backlog to get them on their occupational training.


I'm refering to comments I see on reddit where members pass their training then getting upset for being tasked away for summer training, or sent on exercises etc..



btrudy said:


> I'd rather they be wasting time playing video games because they like playing video games than wasting time sitting around twiddling their thumbs and growing increasingly resentful to the CAF.


This might be a hard sell for tax payers. 

Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.



btrudy said:


> I would posit that if we were actually putting the needs of the institution above, well, anything, then we'd be doing more to keep people, as retention is the most serious ongoing crisis the CAF has.


Quite the tight rope to walk.


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## TacticalTea (21 May 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'm refering to comments I see on reddit where members pass their training then getting upset for being tasked away for summer training, or sent on exercises etc..


I don't think Reddit is a good barometer of general opinion and attitude. It's much more of an echochamber for a certain political demographic.

Just compare the average top comment with the general sentiment on here, there's often a vast difference.



Jarnhamar said:


> Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.



That's a very interesting point. On ship, you'll often hear the MarTechs (for the retirees, that's the trade that replaces all the technical trades, like hull tech, ET, stoker) complaining that they're always the ones staying late cause they have so much to do while the Bosuns sit in the JRs and the NavComms hide behind their ''Encrypting, Entry prohibited'' door sign.

Sending people home is not my preferred situation, just what I'd do in the absence of things to do. But I think there's a LOT of training that can be done for Bosuns especially (Small arms and small boats are good examples), but you need to direct the resources towards that.


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## btrudy (21 May 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I agree. As I've alluded to, I think there's still a large amount of Gen Z's that are active, switched on, and driven individuals, looking for a challenge. No reason we can't convince those kids to get in.



I find a majority of them are; our problem is we don't really offer meaningful, quite a lot of them are active, switched on, and looking for a challenging, meaningful, intellectually stimulating work. The problem being that to a large degree we don't actually offer challenging, meaningful, intellectually stimulating work. 



Jarnhamar said:


> This might be a hard sell for tax payers.



I don't think the tax payers are micromanaging whether or the privates who are doing nothing all day are doing nothing all day in some office or in their barracks room. 



Jarnhamar said:


> Also a major complaint I've seen from section commanders is that they don't have enough time to do their own training and mentoring. I've seen support trades argue they should be left alone from all the parades and stuff so they can get their actual jobs done (maintenance and such) because they're swamped. I could fill a month with training easily.



I'd be a big fan of getting rid of parades so that we can instead focus on doing our actual jobs. 




TacticalTea said:


> I don't think Reddit is a good barometer of general opinion and attitude. It's much more of an echochamber for a certain political demographic.
> 
> Just compare the average top comment with the general sentiment on here, there's often a vast difference.



For what it's worth, the sentiment I see there seems like it more closely closely tracks with the actual sentiments of junior personnel than here does. Wanna find out what Lts and Cpls are thinking? Ask reddit; wanna find out what WOs and LCols are thinking? Ask here.


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## Jarnhamar (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> I don't think the tax payers are micromanaging whether or the privates who are doing nothing all day are doing nothing all day in some office or in their barracks room.



A slow news day could fix that. 

*Soldiers paid to play video games* 
_ While sexual misconduct continues to rip through the Canadian Forces, senior leadership sends soldiers home to play video games instead of conducting much needed ethical training. 

These ultra violent videogames, where the protagonist is often invading other countries with assault rifles, are breeding grounds for white supremacist groups looking to recruit young and impressionable youth._


I'm being facetious of course but I wouldn't be surprised one bit by something like this.


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## Grimey (21 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Training always did have unlockable things.  "If you achieve X, you get to leave barracks this Saturday."


“You’ll get to go the Green and Gold if you pass your saluting test.”


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## Brad Sallows (21 May 2022)

Today's recruits are unlikely to be better than yesterday's.  But they are likely to have led much more comfortable home lives growing up.


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## TacticalTea (21 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Today's recruits are unlikely to be better than yesterday's.  But they are likely to have led much more comfortable home lives growing up.


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## Brad Sallows (21 May 2022)

The thing about old folks disconnected from how young people experience things differently is that young folks are equally disconnected from how old people experienced things differently.

What's the same across time is that people whine about the way things are; what's different across time is the way things are.


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## lenaitch (21 May 2022)

Every preceding generation has probably whined disparagingly about the ones that followed.  My brother spent his career in the hospitality industry and, at one point about 25 years ago (so, pre-dating the current entry workforce cohort) oversaw a chain of restaurants in the GTA.  What drove managers nuts was the unreliability of the staff.  So long as rent and groceries were covered, if a quick cheap vacation, concert or some other immediate gratification came up, they simply didn't show and never seen again.  The money wasn't good enough for any kind of loyalty and they knew they could get same job some place else.  I'm sure that was, and perhaps still is, reflective of a downtown urban youth demographic.  It is unfair and unrealistic to paint an entire swath with the same brush, but they are a large and growing segment.

I agree that the demographic number show that the applicant pool is much smaller than previous cycles, so it's a 'seeker's market'.  From outside looking in, law enforcement doesn't seem to have a significant turn-over rate.  The money is good and I suppose once you get into a family and mortgage you tend to be more stable.

I have noticed that younger members (granted, a relative statement) tend to be less deferential to authority, which reflects a general social attitude, but I find it interesting that they get quite pissy when others don't respect _their_ authority.  I think in ye olden days, we often exercised our authority in a more nuanced manner. 

Everyone wants to be consulted, and respected.  It seems everyone expects their opinion and viewpoint to be acknowledged.  Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand.  It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan.  The challenge is to create a workforce that understands the difference and can make the shift.  It's not deferring to authority as much as it is understand roles, responsibilities and accountabilities.  I've seen done well and I've seen done very poorly and I can only imagine in the military the potential stakes are that much higher.  Good leadership also requires good followership.


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## dimsum (21 May 2022)

btrudy said:


> For what it's worth, the sentiment I see there seems like it more closely closely tracks with the actual sentiments of junior personnel than here does. Wanna find out what Lts and Cpls are thinking? Ask reddit; wanna find out what WOs and LCols are thinking? Ask here.


Bingo.


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## btrudy (22 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I have noticed that younger members (granted, a relative statement) tend to be less deferential to authority, which reflects a general social attitude, but I find it interesting that they get quite pissy when others don't respect _their_ authority.  I think in ye olden days, we often exercised our authority in a more nuanced manner.
> 
> Everyone wants to be consulted, and respected.  It seems everyone expects their opinion and viewpoint to be acknowledged.  Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand.  It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan.  The challenge is to create a workforce that understands the difference and can make the shift.  It's not deferring to authority as much as it is understand roles, responsibilities and accountabilities.  I've seen done well and I've seen done very poorly and I can only imagine in the military the potential stakes are that much higher.  Good leadership also requires good followership.



Let's face it, it's always been important to build a team that functions well, and follows your orders because they trust in your competence when giving said, orders. Relying on authority only is a good way to get people to hesitate at critical moments, or maybe even just get the ole Neidermeyer. Not only that, but it's also pretty important that they're likewise involved enough in the process that they can understand why you'd issue said orders, since if you take a bullet to the chest one of them's going to have to fill in for you. 

The consultative leadership model, when used in training and non-operational situations, can be very effective in building that trust and expertise.


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## Brad Sallows (22 May 2022)

Nothing wrong with consultation as long as everyone remembers that not everyone should be consulted on everything all of the time.


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## mariomike (22 May 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Consultive leadership might be okay on a normal day-to-day basis when there is little at stake except the task at hand.  It can't work in an operational setting when the poo hits the fan.



Thankfully, on 9-1-1 operations, the only "consultation" was with your partner over which TV show to watch, while resting between the tones going off.

I think probationary   employees used to be more "moldable". Especially under the watchful eyes of the  '46ers". Post-war era vets who valued loyalty to the organization.

Candidates were younger, less educated, with less "life experience" than in more recent years.


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## MilEME09 (23 May 2022)

Looks like the news finally picked this up









						Military members urged to contact Habitat for Humanity amid housing crisis
					

An email encouraging members of the Canadian Armed Forces to consider contacting Habitat for Humanity if they can't find affordable housing is casting a spotlight on a growing challenge facing many military personnel and their families.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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## OldSolduer (23 May 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Nothing wrong with consultation as long as everyone remembers that not everyone should be consulted on everything all of the time.


Correct. Tactical situations are not a good place to discuss and consult on COAs.


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## daftandbarmy (23 May 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Looks like the news finally picked this up
> 
> 
> 
> ...



CDS be like....


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