# Would you enlist in the US Marines if it were open to Canadians?



## PJ D-Dog

Hello All:

In an attempt at gathering some non-scientific data as part of my research, I have created this new poll.  Please answer the following question in your reply.  Thanks.  PJ.


*If the US Military were to begin accepting applications from natural born Canadian citizens, what would be your reasons for joining the US Military?  Please elaborate.*


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## scm77

First a question.  Are we talking about the entire US Military or just USMC?  The poll says US Marines but your question says US Military.

Now an answer. The US military offers many oppourtunities that the Canadian forces don't.  Things like working on an aircrafy carrier, flying many different kinds of aircraft (different types of fighters, bombers, attack helicopters, transport planes and transport helicopters etc), driving tanks (well I guess Canada will still have tanks for a few more years) there is alot more, but you get the picture.  

For the US Army, if you visit the website that lists all the different jobs you can have, you can see there is much more variety then in the Canadian Forces.
http://goarmy.com/JobCatList.do?fw=careerindex

As well, in my opinion, the US Military has alot more support both from the people and from the government,  though some may dispute that.  I'm sure it varies from province to province, city to city etc.

I personally would join the US Miltary (either the US Army or Marine Corps) if it was mad easier for Canadians to enlist.  If it isn't done then  I will still serve for Canada and have great pride while doing so.


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## PJ D-Dog

scm77 said:
			
		

> First a question.   Are we talking about the entire US Military or just USMC?   The poll says US Marines but your question says US Military.



I meant the US Marine Corps but I accidentally wrote the US Military.  You can answer with your comments both ways.  Thanks for the input.

PJ D-Dog


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## jonsey

I'd consider it.  The CF would still be my main choice, but if something happens that would make the CF less desirable to join, or more difficult (budget cutbacks, personel reductions, etc.), then yes, I'd consider the USMC.


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## Pte. Bloggins

No. I'm Canadian, therefore I serve in Canada's army.

Plain and simple, end of story.


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## chrisf

Agreed with bloggins, my motives are more then purely mercenary, as such, I have no desire to be in the armed forces of another country.


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## patrick666

There is no way in hell I would serve for another country and I don't care how many better opportunities or weapons/vehicles they have. 

 , eh!

Cheers


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## kincanucks

No, because despite the idiots that sometime govern her, this great country is the country of my birth and I am proud to serve her in whatever capacity I can.


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## Tpr.Orange

As a dual citizen, 

I still prefer to serve the country i was born in !


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## R031button

Sig Bloggins said:
			
		

> No. I'm Canadian, therefore I serve in Canada's army.
> 
> Plain and simple, end of story.



Seen.


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## Britney Spears

Well, my questions would be:

1) What's the USMC health plan out look wrt gender reassignment proceedures?

and

2) Is there going to be a lot of drill? I don't like drill.....



Not sure what you mean by "Natural born", it would rule me out if it means what I think it does. Also, what kind of deal would there be wrt obtaining citizenship and/or a pension after one's contract is complete? What about access to funding for education a la GI bill or whatever it is you call it? Presumably if one is serious about joining there would have to be some long term stability, since I doubt you're looking for guys who join just to "shoot ragheads"? I suppose it would all depend on the terms of service, I wouldn't consider it unless I was offered at least the full set of benefits that US citizens enjoy (I don't think anyone's going to put their ass on the line without getting access to the good stuff  at the end), but I personally wouldn't rule it out on principle alone.


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## Michael Dorosh

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Well, my questions would be:
> 
> 1) What's the USMC health plan out look wrt gender reassignment proceedures?



You want to know if the Marines can make a man out of you?

If the Canadian Army couldn't do it, Britney, what makes you think the Marines could? ;D


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## TCBF

I'm a little old to be changing horses in mid stream...   But I think of a book called "Dual Allegience" by Ben Dunkelman.   A company commander in the QOR in WW2, he went to Isreal and was their first Armd Bde Commander.   I could see Canadians joining the US military to accomplish goals necessary to the defence of democracy and western civilization, if they felt they could contribute more outside of Canada.

The large number of Americans who fought with the Canadians in WW1 ("Generals Die in Bed", by an American in the Royal Montreal Regt is one example) and WW2 (read "Terror in the Starboard Seat" by a Canadian Mosquito Nav flying with an American Pilot) joined up to fight a war their country had not yet figured out how to enter. They knew it needed fighting, and they went.   I see a similarity today, with traffic moving in the other direction.

Iit was easy when I joined - the "front" was the Inner German Border.   Now, if a young person asked me where best to contribute in the fight for democracy and liberty... well, I would say,   go South. 

Tom


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## Britney Spears

> If the Canadian Army couldn't do it, Britney, what makes you think the Marines could? Grin



We ARE ahead of the game in that department. Perhaps that is a good reason to jump ship?


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## Sc011y

I was born in Canada, love Canada, and want to serve, yup, you guessed it, Canada.  But in circumstances such as the first and second world wars, when Americans joined up to fight for the greater good of man, I can see the logic.  But right now, I dont see any reason to go south.  So at this moment in time, no, I think I will stay here, trusting that my country will do the right thing.


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## TCBF

At the risk of adding fuel to this digression, I find it odd that the Canadian Taxpayers would give me a larger set of teats faster than they would give a female soldier a larger set of teats.   Mind you, I would no doubt be optioned for the whole package....

Naw, my wife likes me just the way I yam.    ;D

Tom


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## Pieman

Would be interesting to see the other side of the coin on this question: 

Would the American tax payers and politicians want/accept a foreign legion?

Perhaps someone here has more insight to the American perspective that says different, but my personal inclination is that it would never happen. Especially in this post 9/11 era with security issues being one of their top concerns.


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## TCBF

I don't think they need a separate force, just seemless policies that encourage specific foriegn nationals to go to the USA, enlist for five years or so, and get citizenship as a result.  If they did that, it would blow our recruiting efforts right out of the water here in Canada.  No way could we compete with those wages or benefits.  

So why don't they?  We compete for Doctors, Engineers, Entertainers (yechhh) and others, why not fr soldiers?

Tom


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## Love793

As much as I have thought about it in the past, even as I stood on the flight line at FT Hood, waiting for 31 CBG to arrive and watching 1 Cav deploy to Iraq to relieve 4 ID, I would have to say no.   I am a Canadian, and bear allegence to Canada and ERII.   On the same note, if the oppurtunity to serve in Brit Army came up, my answer would probabaly be different.


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## McG

Pieman said:
			
		

> Would the American tax payers and politicians want/accept a foreign legion?


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28732.0/all.html


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## TCBF

"even as I stood on the flight line at FT Hood"

I was in Ft Hood for five weeks in the Spring of 1978.  We did an exchange, and I went from an M113A1 driver in Petawawa, with the 8CH(PL), to an M60A1 driver in Fort Hood, with 3/10 Cav.

They have come a LONG way, and good for them. I bet they could get 5,000 recruits a year out of Canada EASY.

Tom


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## Pieman

> Insert Quote
> Quote from: Pieman on Today at 02:30:13
> Would the American tax payers and politicians want/accept a foreign legion?
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28732.0/all.html



Doh! Thanks MCG, missed that thread.


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## PJ D-Dog

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Well, my questions would be:
> 
> 1) What's the USMC health plan out look wrt gender reassignment proceedures?



Gender reassignment would not be part of the health care plan...sorry.

and

2) Is there going to be a lot of drill? I don't like drill.....

Not sure what you mean by "Natural born", it would rule me out if it means what I think it does. Also, what kind of deal would there be wrt obtaining citizenship and/or a pension after one's contract is complete? What about access to funding for education a la GI bill or whatever it is you call it? Presumably if one is serious about joining there would have to be some long term stability, since I doubt you're looking for guys who join just to "shoot ragheads"? I suppose it would all depend on the terms of service, I wouldn't consider it unless I was offered at least the full set of benefits that US citizens enjoy (I don't think anyone's going to put their *** on the line without getting access to the good stuff   at the end), but I personally wouldn't rule it out on principle alone.

There is  a lot of drill in Marine Corps boot camp.  It is used for many reasons.

Natural born Canadians means born in Canada.  Obviously, all members serving from Canada would have access to all the same benefits that any American joining up would.  As for citizenship, the current law would apply provided the US gives you a green card (which would be part of the idea).  As for pension, if one does 20 years, they would be entitled to the same pension plan as available to all other service members in the same boat.  Education benefits now include 100 per cent in service tuition assistance and the GI bill when you get out.  Curently, the GI bill is set up where you contribute $1000 when you get in (taken out at $100 per month) with a return of $36,000 to bu used when you get out for college.  You can also use the GI bill in service if you need extra money for college that the in service tuition assistance program does not cover.

Health care is 100 per cent while in service for both you and your family.  If you do 20 years and retire,  you still get that medical coverage.  I currently pay 20$ per month for full dental coverage and $19 per month for family health care.  This is a drop in the bucket considering the cost of civilian medical insurance available for civilians.

PJ


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## Da_man

Since i dont even agree with the way Bush breaths, theres no way i would join the marines


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## Michael Dorosh

Da_man said:
			
		

> Since i dont even agree with the way Bush breaths, theres no way i would join the marines



Gee, and yet you joined the Canadian Army with the Liberal party at the helm.  Glad to see you make a stand, man.  We're proud of you.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Well you have to look at it this way...even with the Liberals at least he wants to serve _his_ country and not someone elses.


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## jmackenzie_15

"On the same note, if the oppurtunity to serve in Brit Army came up, my answer would probabaly be different."

You realize that as commonwealth citizens, you /can/ join the UK Military right?

I looked into it before.If you are applying from overseas, you need a sponsor in the UK who is a citizen OR
you can simply move to the UK on your own, and apply the next day as a commonwealth citizen.
This was for regular soldiers, not 100% on how it works for officers.


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## Infanteer

Would it be "someone else's"?   Anyone who would go South would become a naturalized American citizen and have an equal share in the United States of America.

I don't think the Birth Certificate per se should constrain ones freedom of movement, ability to take their professional abilities elsewhere or necessarily garner their immediate and undying loyalty.   We have plenty of good Canadians with birth certificates from other countries and plenty of "Canadians", born and raised, who don't rate the shoes their standing in.


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## Ex-Dragoon

I guess my citizenship means more to me then. I am not saying this to diss the Americans but I would prefer to serve Canada and her needs first. I do not always agree with the decisions made or the choices Canada decides on but right or wrong this is my country.


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## Meridian

jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> "On the same note, if the oppurtunity to serve in Brit Army came up, my answer would probabaly be different."
> 
> You realize that as commonwealth citizens, you /can/ join the UK Military right?
> 
> I looked into it before.If you are applying from overseas, you need a sponsor in the UK who is a citizen OR
> you can simply move to the UK on your own, and apply the next day as a commonwealth citizen.
> This was for regular soldiers, not 100% on how it works for officers.



No longer works that way for officers.


At any rate, Im a no. I've often wondered why people would do it, besides feeling like the US values match ones own.


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## Infanteer

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I guess my citizenship means more to me then. I am not saying this to diss the Americans but I would prefer to serve Canada and her needs first. I do not always agree with the decisions made or the choices Canada decides on but right or wrong this is my country.



No, you're right - and this is a perfectly reasonable opinion.  I just think that citizenship is far more then a birth certificate.

Let's put it this way; I'm sure we would be happy to see someone leave Rwanda or Indonesia to avoid violence and come to Canada, perhaps choosing to serve in the Forces when he arrives.  Is this any different then seeing a Canadian move South - are these people not also free individuals going to where they perceive the greatest opportunity to be?


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## Ex-Dragoon

> Let's put it this way; I'm sure we would be happy to see someone leave Rwanda or Indonesia to avoid violence and come to Canada, perhaps choosing to serve in the Forces when he arrives.


Agreed. I think we both see it as someone trying to leave a bad situation to improve their lives and possibily that of their family.



> Is this any different then seeing a Canadian move South - are these people not also free individuals going to where they perceive the greatest opportunity to be?


I disagree here though. In your above example, the hypothetical person is leaving to avoid violence or maybe some other factor( faminie, natural disaster, rebirth of the Smurfs). Although the above can happen here and will most likely will in the future, to do so IMO makes one no better then a mercenary. You want to serve in another nations military, all the power to you but in my opinion you should lose your citzenship. Hypothetical situation for those that would consider this. What happens if the day ever comes when/if relations get so bad between our country and one you are serving. Would you continue to serve in that countrys military even though relations have soured so much that trade sanctions have occured and there is tension or would you violate your contract to come home?


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## TCBF

If a Canadian entertainer, doctor, professor, scientist or nurse can move South for a better career, why can't a Canadian Tank Commander or Herc Pilot?

If the fact that fighting for democracy and liberty is best done - at the moment - in a uniform other than ours makes you uncomfortable, just answer the paragraph above by itself.

Tom


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## B.McTeer

Canadian Born and Canadian raised, I hope to serve in the *Canadian* army soon


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## canadianblue

I might consider joining the US Marine Corps, but I doubt I ever would. First of all, my main goal is to become an MP, and from what I've heard the Canadian MP's here are more sophisticated, better trained, and better equiped then our American counterparts. Plus I would like to get on to CFNIS one day, so thats the route I'd like to take. Plus even though I hate the Federal Liberals, I still want to serve this country I was born in.


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## civvy3840

I was born in Canada. Live in Canada. And I will be serving Canada as soon as I'm 16 (hopefully).


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## winchable

Serve where your interests are best represented and you feel most comfortable and where you believe you'll perform your best I say, when it comes down to it some people people (a sizeable number I would wager) would opt to join the USMC for whatever reason. 

Any altruistic notion of serving the country I was born in (not even born here either which I realised as I typed that) took a back seat at some point to other things in my life, and when it boils down to it, yeah it's about me, me me me.. sorry I suppose I'm selfish, but it's my career, my life and my arse.

It won't be the US for me because of my already Dual status (and it wouldn't be anyway because as I said, you should serve that which represents you) but I would opt to serve elsewhere. (The UK)
Not for any Rambo-like reason or high notion of super cool fun stuff (The grass certainly ain't greener) but when it comes down to it, it's about where I feel at home and where I feel myself best represented by the ethos and ideals of the people above me.
So in that sense, yeah, I guess I should have my citizenship taken away, I'd give it up if it would make everyone here sleep a little better.

We're all on the same team (or we're supposed to be), and the USMC/RM whathaveyou represent a step/level in the combat arms that's been taken away from Canadians willing to serve and who want that extra bit of umph from the getgo.

So..yes I wouild/am but not exactly.


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## I_am_John_Galt

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Also, what kind of deal would there be wrt obtaining citizenship and/or a pension after one's contract is complete? What about access to funding for education a la GI bill or whatever it is you call it? Presumably if one is serious about joining there would have to be some long term stability, since I doubt you're looking for guys who join just to "shoot ragheads"? I suppose it would all depend on the terms of service, I wouldn't consider it unless I was offered at least the full set of benefits that US citizens enjoy (I don't think anyone's going to put their *** on the line without getting access to the good stuff  at the end), but I personally wouldn't rule it out on principle alone.



IIRC, as it stands now "Enlisted" recruits require only Resident Alien status, and time in can be used for naturalization: sometime recently (post 9/11, anyway) Bush granted Citizen status to all(?) (then) currently-serving Aliens ...


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## PJ D-Dog

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> IIRC, as it stands now "Enlisted" recruits require only Resident Alien status, and time in can be used for naturalization: sometime recently (post 9/11, anyway) Bush granted Citizen status to all(?) (then) currently-serving Aliens ...



Just to clear the terminology up (because it confused me when I first came here), the resident alien status card is actully the infamous green card (no longer the color green).  The official name of the visa is the I-551 legal permanent resident.

This visa is a requirement when it comes to naturalization.  President Bush, in 2002, signed an executive order authorizing any member of the US armed services to be naturalized through a steam line process without requiring the minimum three year residency that the law stated.  In short, if you have a green card and join the US military, you can be naturalized within six months from the time you apply for naturalization.  It is still not automatic, you have to apply for it, if you want to be a citizen.

The big difference between a permanent resident and a naturalized citizen, is that you can vote as a citizen but you can't vote if you have a green card.  There are some other obscure rights you get through citizenship but the biggie is the right to vote.  Hope this helps.

PJ D-Dog


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## SHELLDRAKE!!

The entire idea of "joining foreign militaries" is kind of a sticky point with me.When I was 14 , I bugged american recruiters endlessly to figure out a way to get me into the marines when I was of age.Why marines?What else does a canadian kid see in movies and shows?I didn't have a clue what the CF was like but I didnt care about my birthplace as long as I could be like them guys on tv.

  A quick search of this forum and you will see a lot of examples of canadian youth looking for the quick fix.SAS,JTF,SEALS.Everyone has goals and should strive for them but IMHO the proudest part of my dress uniform is the word CANADA.

  Should Canada ever dissolve I dont think I could be in any other millitary, for the simple fact you then become a fighter for the best job offer and not a fighter for your birthplace and famillys home.

  Just my opinion that is.


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## TCBF

What if one's vision of the "big picture" differs with current policy?  We had Americans join our forces in two world wars because their's wasn't going just yet.  If a Canadian believed that the real front line of our defence was in Iraq, or Syria, why should he not join the US forces?  

Tom


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## winchable

Americans also went and fought in the Spanish civil war even though their government would not, which had it been won by the republicans would have changed WW2 for the better (correct me if I'm wrong that's what I've always thought) if only we had interceded there when we could have. (Monday morning quarterback)

Alternately if we believe that our generation's war is in Iraq and our own government won't (or can't) send us there, are we supposed to simply accept the fact that while our cousins to the south die for something we believe in. 10 years from now we'll have to say that we did nothing because our government was opposed, and did nothing when we could have actually done something?

Your right though shelldrake, if someone wants to be like the guys on tv they really have no business leaving and the majority of responses seem to say that even the youth, those wasted healthy bodies and organs (the ones who probably will make it in) would stay.

Simply saying Yes, or no, doesn't really do it for this question I suppose.


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## CBH99

In my case, it would really depend on the current political atmosphere of the world, more particularily - the United States.

Overall, I would have to say no - I'm Canadian, through and through.  Like TCBF said, the proudest part of my uniform (Back when I was in one) - was the word CANADA on my shoulders.  Canadian soldiers have a stellar reputation throughout the world as being polite, and extremely effective.  Too bad the Canadian media turns around and does such a negative number on the CF, reporting the negative but not the positive.  Ah well, isn't that always the case these days?

Back on topic - if I were to join the US Marines, it would have to be for a purpose I completely believed in - and the only organization in which I could seize the opportunity.  I would have to have complete, total faith in the political and military leadership of the United States, and be able to rest assured that should I be ordered to fight and kill - it would be to make this world a better place, not to further the political agenda of the United States unilaterally.

In today's world, I would say no to joining the US Marines.  They are a proud organization, and they have earned respect throughout all corners of the world.  However, I do not have confidence in the honesty and integrity of the US political or military leadership - in my mind, today's America is much different than the America of olden days.  I would not join the US Marines in today's world.  The ONLY way I would join a foreign military force is if I believed their fight to be noble and necessary to the improvement of the world as a whole.  And in today's world, that list of countries does not include the US.

(I'm not anti-American, for those of you waiting in the shadows to pounce on this response and chew into me.  Just being honest - I'm proud to be Canadian, and it would take a noble fight to get me to join a foreign military service).


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## TCBF

S. Baker, the Great Silent Majority of Canadians are with you.  There is not a single Cdn Doctor, Nurse, or Bricklayer working in the US - or who would like to be - who would deny a Cdn Tk Comd or Herc Pilot the ability to also work in the US.

Tom


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## TCBF

This may change.  I am 50, with 28 years Regular, so a bit late for me, but I think in five years or so, the young folks may have another option.

Tom


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## winchable

Does anyone know of any political movements aimed at working on this?


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## TCBF

This would be a hot potato on both sides of the border.  

Tom


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## Cliff

Following WW2 right up to the 1970s, most Cdns stopped caring about the military. Sad, but true. Many of us can do a lot more by helping America by being south of the border. For those of us who have made this decision, there's nothing to justify. Besides, there are a lot more gigs in the close protection and security field.


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## USSRsovietsnake

I would only join if a war was going on that effect me. Why join a foreign military? What is the point? Joining your own military is fine because you might feel defending your country is a great honor but i dont see why you would want to join a foreign military unless you really want to shoot people.


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## 1feral1

It is a personal decision, and I reckon its up to the individual for such a giant leap in repsonsibility, and changing one's allegance to a new land and government. I did it,( and not for the reason the CLOWN in the above post says either) but down here, not up in the north, and my allegance is now to Australia, and everything it stands for, but I NEVER forget where I come from and what that stands for too, but my heart and mind is now here, and has been for some time. I still love Canada very much, its my homeland and where I grew up, but thats as far as it goes now.

If someone is up to living the adventure to go off and join a foreign county's Defence Force, all the power to them,   but living the dream, might not be what you thought it would be.

Its not an easy decision to make, and if I have any regrets, I should have come out here when I was 21, not 35.

Do what ya gotta do, but think of both the pros and cons of going south. The USMC is a proud and great organistaion to be in, and remember this once a Marine, always an Marine, there is no such thing as an ex-Marine, but there are former Marines.

I knew a bloke Geoff Cook, from the Camerons (CPL) out of the 'Peg, back in the early 80's he went to the USMC, and I beleive he did at least 5 yrs, but I lost contact with him. He had always talked about doing it, and ole Grandma' as we called him, bloody well did it, and it was not easy, and good on him for giving it a go.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1

USSRsovietsnake said:
			
		

> but i dont see why you would want to join a foreign military unless you really want to shoot people.



I was not even going respond to such crap, but I cannot help myself, as being a foreigner serving in another country's Defence Force.

With an attitude and brain capacity like you appear to have, I am sure you'll go far in life. I suggest you ammend your post before you get eaten alive on here, and loose any respect you have left.

Being new, you should now better.

Take a moment or three to see what nonsense you have actually wrote.


Shaking head,

Wes


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## USSRsovietsnake

Would it make you happy if i said i wouldn't join? Maybe i could have worded it differently but who knew you would take offense. Also don't attack my character since i wasn't the one who seems to be angry over an internet post. Ill agree with Just a Sig op and Bloggins for lack of a better statement.


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## 1feral1

Read your post PAL, and I don't give a fat rats arse if you join or don't. What gets me is your comment at the end of your post. You are the one who is preaching anyone who joins a foreign DF wants to shoot people, thats pretty stupid, and I take GREAT offence to it!

End of lesson SON.


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## USSRsovietsnake

"I didnt say everyone who joins a foregn military wants to shoot people,I said" i dont see why you would want to join a foreign military unless you really want to shoot people." which is more or less sarcastic.


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## 1feral1

Either way, the wording is improper, and I took it as it is read. There was nothing in your post about sarcasim. Don't go on waffling trying to change what you have said, as its in black and white for all to see. Besides what military experience do you have anyways?


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## USSRsovietsnake

Black and white for all to see? Ever think that im just trying to be the better person by trying to tell you what i ment.


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## 1feral1

:

If ya wanna play the troll or shyte disturber, go somewhere else.


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## Britney Spears

Never pass a fault eh, Wes?  

You know what they say about mud wrestling with pigs, sometimes it's better to just sit back and let the mods handle things.


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## 1feral1

Too right mate, he's has showed us the calibre he is. Damage done.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Ghost

Yes I would join.

I don't have any problem with leaving Canada,  I've done my part here and submitted an application and if the Canadian Forces don't want to hire me than we have got a problem and I will be heading to the US to join the US Army.

Some people may not like it but too bad I am not here to please you.


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## cgyflames01

Ghost; please, by all means don't let any of us stop you.


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## USSRsovietsnake

Since i don't want you all to be upset with me ill say I'm sorry for causing a missunderstanding that sounded more like in insult than a sarcastic stupid remark.


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## muskrat89

USSR - Maybe you should just lay low for awhile, and read as many different topics as possible. Kind of get a "feel" for the attitude, flavour, and tone of the more seasoned posters. New users are always encouraged to read more, and post less, until they get the hang of things. We'd like the boards to be a positive experience for everybody, including you.

If you would like more explanation, or have any questions, please feel free to PM me directly.

Thanks in advance....


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## KevinB

Unfortunately as I turn 35 this month, it is not an opinion for me or I'd be gone ina  heart beat.

 Down to country,gov't and military more in tune with my own personal convictions.


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## TCBF

Agreed.

Tom


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## Infanteer

Seems like the Aussies have no problems with shopping for outside talents:

----

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/caree...eaInfoBody.html


Overseas Recruitment

Overseas recruitment is designed to supplement, but not replace, Australian domestic recruiting efforts. Overseas recruitment will permit the Australian Army's sponsorship of ex serving or serving foreign military personnel for service in the Army. Individuals will be recruited on the basis of their experience and/or skills in order to relieve shortfalls in Australian Regular Army personnel capability.

Army will only sponsor the recruitment of ex serving or serving foreign military personnel for service in the Army. Foreign nationals who do not have prior military experience must apply for enlistment in Army through Defence Force Recruiting once they have satisfied normal Australian permanent residency requirements.

Army has nominated a series of appointments and trades as occupations that are considered suitable for sponsorship. Occupations have been broadly grouped into Officer and Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) categories. The NCO category includes personnel of Warrant Officer rank. Personnel recruited from overseas under the auspices of the Labour Agreement must be recruited to an occupation as defined in the Agreement.

An individual who is of a rank appropriate to the Agreement, but who has not completed the required minimum level of formal study or who is below the rank specified, but has operational experience, skills or formal training sufficient to warrant recruitment, action may be considered under the Employer Nominated Scheme (ENS). The ENS is a separate provision and is not part of the Labour Agreement.

Officer Selection Criteria

Army may recruit an officer deemed suitable for service in the Australian Army, providing that the following key criteria are met:


The individual possesses a recognised tertiary qualification requiring at least three years full-time study in an appropriate discipline;


The individual possesses experience and/or training assessed as being equivalent to an Australian tertiary qualification requiring a minimum of three years full-time study;


The individual possesses experience and/or training that can be readily assessed by Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (DIMA) to be equivalent to an Australian tertiary qualification requiring at least three years full-time study. In military terms, the individual must have completed the following minimum equivalent full-time study;


Successful completion of a level of education equivalent to an Australian Higher School Certificate;


Successful completion of a level of military commissioning training equivalent to the Royal Military College Duntroon;


Successful completion of a level of military education equivalent to a Regular Officer Basic Course;


Successful completion of a level of military education equivalent to the Intermediate Staff Course.

Successful completion of specialised training and experience so that the officer is fully qualified for employment in the appointment that the officer is to be allocated to;


If from a non-English speaking background, the individual has a minimum vocational proficiency in English (as defined by DIMA); and

The officer possesses a rank of at least Captain.

Non-Commissioned Officer Selection Criteria

Army may recruit a soldier deemed suitable for service in the Australian Army, providing that the following key criteria are met:


As a minimum, have successfully completed a level of education equivalent to an Australian Secondary School certificate (year 10) and have completed relevant specialist Defence Force training courses and experience equivalent to at least 3 years full-time study, so that the nominee is fully qualified for employment in the occupation in which they have been nominated within Army (see below under the heading 'Education').


Possess a minimum of three years relevant post-qualification experience.


If from a non-English speaking background, the individual has a minimum vocational proficiency in English (as defined by DIMA).


The soldier possesses a rank of at least Sergeant.

Education

All overseas qualifications submitted must be accompanied by an assessment of Australian equivalencies. This is to be undertaken at the applicant's cost.

The body that assesses overseas trade and education qualifications is AEI (Australian Education International). AEI, through the National Office of Overseas Skills Recognition (AEI-NOOSR), provides official information and advice on the comparability of overseas qualifications with Australian qualifications. This aims to help overseas qualified people work and study in Australia.


----------



## wack-in-iraq

i think this is a pretty interesting post, especially to someone like myself.  i toyed with the idea of joining the australian, NZ and american armies, as well as the royal marines and the FFL before finally ending up here in iraq with a private organization..... and no, i didnt come here to kill people, i came because i support the cause and i wanted to feel the rush of being in a place like this... of course the action was a draw as well.
  after being over here i will say this, i would join the marines in a second if i could. when i look at a marine and then a normal US Army soldier the difference is evident, your average marine looks fitter, and more confident than any bread of soldier i have ever seen, it never fails to impress me whenever i see them. dont get me wrong the army fellas are doing a great job as well, but there is just something about the USMC that makes me give them that extra bit of respect.
  more than anything, i wish that canada had a better military, one where questions like this didnt need to be asked. almost any person ive met in the canadian army has at one point thought of what it would be like to be in an army with more money, more numbers, more equipment, more deployments, and most important, more public support.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

"almost any person ive met in the canadian army has at one point thought of what it would be like to be in an army with more money, more numbers, more equipment, more deployments, and most important, more public support."

yeah   :-\


----------



## Infanteer

Bah - America, Canada, Britain or Australia; you're basically on the same team.


----------



## civvy3840

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Bah - America, Canada, Britain or Australia; you're basically on the same team.



That is true.


----------



## Canuck_25

Well, the thought of serving for a Yankee president, for a Yankee foreign policy, and with Yankees and not Canadians is rather unappealing to me.


----------



## Infanteer

But living under the aegis of "Yankee" upheld prosperity does?

If you're just here to troll or be ignorant, I'll simply delete your posts.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Down with yankee imperialism!!!!
> 
> :
> 
> As Infanteer pointed out, we're all fighting on the same side. It's just that in a foreign military like the US/UK/Aussie ones, their political leaders actually back up their rhetoric with action. It must get frustrating for many of the troops here to know that there is a war to be fought, that they want to do their part and are able to do their part and yet our political leadership has neither the courage or stones to do what has to be done.
> 
> And at least in my case (if I were to go down), is that the US's values and how they do things is more in tune with my beliefs then what we have here.



Amen


----------



## ArmyRick

Our country is as corrupt as any can get...
We have several generations of liberal leadership who spend and refuse to be held accountable for their inexcusable actions...
We have people who have distorted views of reality fed to them by previous generations of politicians...
Same smug people who complain and bash the americans more as a trend than anything...
What do we really have left that is so freakin great anymore?

I would join the USMC in a heart beat. Honour and duty probably still mean something down there?


----------



## D-n-A

I'd join the US Army or USMC  if I could, I looked into it awhile ago, I tried to join the US Army awhile ago, but because its very hard to get a green card, I coulden't. To bad the US Military doesn't sponser green cards anymore, thats how my father was able to join the US Army in the '60s.


----------



## McAllister

I'm with you rick. Marines are awesome. Not as well trained as us, but that warrior spirit coupled with their record makes them a unit I'd proudly serve with. I also like how they have inflicted the highest kill ratio in history against the Chinese at the Chosin Reservoir in Korea.


----------



## D-n-A

McAllister said:
			
		

> .. Not as well trained as us...



Um.. what facts do you have to back that statement up.


----------



## McAllister

Allow me to rephrase: I HEARD from both a Marine and a CF soldier that the basic Marine was not as well trained in the broader sense, like advanced fieldcraft, nav, AT, AA, etc. However there are Recon Marines, and also so many marines have combat experience, which is worth so much. Both the Marine corps and the CF can bring so much hurt to an enemy force. I don't know, man.  Hey. Forget everything I said.


----------



## DogOfWar

McAllister said:
			
		

> Allow me to rephrase: I HEARD from both a Marine and a CF soldier that the basic Marine was not as well trained in the broader sense, like advanced fieldcraft, nav, AT, AA, etc. However there are Recon Marines, and also so many marines have combat experience, which is worth so much. Both the Marine corps and the CF can bring so much hurt to an enemy force. I don't know, man.   Hey. Forget everything I said.



Heresay is crap. My cousins are all Marines and there bootcamp is a true warrior school. You can say that about the other branches- they're booties arent up to mustard(Navy and Air Force) or the Army(pretty much our bmq)But the Marines beat them into Marines from the moment they step on the field. They might not be the brightest lot but Id fight along with 'em anyday. The change in my cousins was tremendous.


----------



## McAllister

Yeah. thats another thing I love about the Marine Corps. Every Marine's a rifleman first. 

Thats good news about your cousins. I read a book called Making the Corps. It was pretty much an author spending every day with a Marine boot platoon from start to grad. The transformation they would make in these kids who just came of the streets and were involved in gangs and violent crimes was crazy. They'd go from drinking a 40 oz on the corner to standing rigid as a stature guarding embassies.


----------



## DogOfWar

McAllister said:
			
		

> Yeah. thats another thing I love about the Marine Corps. Every Marine's a rifleman first.
> 
> Thats good news about your cousins. I read a book called Making the Corps. It was pretty much an author spending every day with a Marine boot platoon from start to grad. The transformation they would make in these kids who just came of the streets and were involved in gangs and violent crimes was crazy. They'd go from drinking a 40 oz on the corner to standing rigid as a stature guarding embassies.



Thats my cousin! The court actually ordered him in......and Ive never seen a bigger change in someone. I dont mind him now LOL. He was top of his class. Quite the turn from his coke habit for sure.


----------



## McAllister

Top of his class?? Holy S***! Out of how many people?


----------



## DogOfWar

McAllister said:
			
		

> Top of his class?? Holy S***! Out of how many people?



no idea. I wouldnt hesitate to guess. 5 or 100 I was impressed none the less.


----------



## McAllister

yeah. I think only the Marine Corps boot is hardcore enough to make THAT much of a transformation in such troubled youth. It must be tough s***. At one point in this book I mentioned earlier, the Marine boot platoon was doing a combat training exercise against an opfor of a US Army boot platoon. The Marines would fix bayonets, charge bunkers, and scream war cries, while the army performance was sad at best. The author wrote about how during the ex he saw one US Army recruit fall into a trench during the firefight, hurting her ankle. The recruit took her helmet off, dropped her rifle in the dirt, and started crying. The marines war cries, base of fire and dummy grenade blasts could be herad in the distance as they rolled em back. Nothing against the US army, but the USMC is not for everyone.


----------



## jmackenzie_15

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Bah - America, Canada, Britain or Australia; you're basically on the same team.



Exactly.
We all defend and die in the name of the same interests.
Odds are pretty good that if any of the above countries get into a situation where they need armed soldiers, so will we.
Afghanistan is a good example.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

McAllister said:
			
		

> Allow me to rephrase: I HEARD from both a Marine and a CF soldier that the basic Marine was not as well trained in the broader sense, like advanced fieldcraft, nav, AT, AA, etc.



I think I am more than qualified to answer this post.  I'm not trying to flame you, I just want to set the record straight in case there are others with the same misconception, maybe through no fault of their own.

Marine recruits will attend three schools before they get to their first duty station.  They will go to boot camp, School of Infantry and then on to their trade school or what we call MOS school.  On average, it takes roughly eight months to fully train a Marine for the fleet.  I am speaking of the enlisted side here.  For aviation Marines, their schools are longer and therefore it takes them nearly a year to get trained.

To train a CF soldier (regular or reserve) to the same level as an entry level Marine, it takes roughly two years.  Having said this, the CF soldier will still not do everything an entry level Marine will do i.e. rappelling, fast roping, martial arts, hand to hand combat etc.

Where the Marine Corps falls down a bit is in the professional development area (what we call a PME or Professional Military Education).  Although we have leadership schools, they are not all mandatory attendance schools such as the CLC and SLC in the CF.  The Marine Corps is moving toward this but at a slower pace.  We do have something called the Marine Corps Institute (MCI) courses which are correspondance courses that are mandatory for completion at different rank levels.

In addition to all the training the Marines goes through, many of the couses are college accredited.  A Marine leaves boot camp and has three college credits.  As he takes more training, more college credits are accumulated.  MCI courses also count toward college credits.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## McAllister

I planned on trying to get into the MArine Corps if the Canadian Forces wouldn't take me, but it's hard to do. My friend from high school got into the Corps but that's because he was born in texas. The USMC recruiter told me I needed to get a green card from the dept of homeland Security, but their 1-800 number can only be accessed from within the US. Odd.

How difficult would it be for a law abiding, clean criminal record Canadian citizen to join the Marines?


----------



## D-n-A

McAllister said:
			
		

> I planned on trying to get into the MArine Corps if the Canadian Forces wouldn't take me, but it's hard to do. My friend from high school got into the Corps but that's because he was born in texas. The USMC recruiter told me I needed to get a green card from the dept of homeland Security, but their 1-800 number can only be accessed from within the US. Odd.
> 
> How difficult would it be for a law abiding, clean criminal record Canadian citizen to join the Marines?



Impossible without a family member(who is either a US citisen who a US green card holder) to sponser you. Also, I believe you talk to US Immigration(INS) to get a green card or citisenship, etc not homeland secruity.


----------



## DogOfWar

McAllister said:
			
		

> I planned on trying to get into the MArine Corps if the Canadian Forces wouldn't take me, but it's hard to do. My friend from high school got into the Corps but that's because he was born in texas. The USMC recruiter told me I needed to get a green card from the dept of homeland Security, but their 1-800 number can only be accessed from within the US. Odd.
> 
> How difficult would it be for a law abiding, clean criminal record Canadian citizen to join the Marines?



Yup impossible. I cant get in even witrh all my family being in the states, it has to be either a mother/father/brother or sister to sponser you. My mother gave up hers so i am ineligible.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

That is absolutely right.  You can only be sponsored for a green card (I-551 visa) by a mother, father, sister, brother, spouse in order to obtain one.  The time lines are up to 24 months waiting time from when you apply and receive your receipt from immigration.  All the info you need is at www.immigration.gov.

Another route would be to claim 50 per cent native status.  That will get you in under the J-treaty for natives.  You don't necessarily need to have proof of native status from Canada.  If your recruiter has the connections, he can get you the status letter that will in turn get you a social security number and then the processing can begin.  You have to be a natural born Canadian for this to take place.  It does not give you a green card but you don't need one using this process.  Some recruiters know how to do this, while others don't have the connections.  It's hit or miss.

Again, this should be changed to pre-1968 immigration laws that would allow Canadians to join.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## DogOfWar

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> That is absolutely right.   You can only be sponsored for a green card (I-551 visa) by a mother, father, sister, brother, spouse in order to obtain one.   The time lines are up to 24 months waiting time from when you apply and receive your receipt from immigration.   All the info you need is at www.immigration.gov.
> 
> Another route would be to claim 50 per cent native status.   That will get you in under the J-treaty for natives.   You don't necessarily need to have proof of native status from Canada.   If your recruiter has the connections, he can get you the status letter that will in turn get you a social security number and then the processing can begin.   You have to be a natural born Canadian for this to take place.   It does not give you a green card but you don't need one using this process.   Some recruiters know how to do this, while others don't have the connections.   It's hit or miss.
> 
> Again, this should be changed to pre-1968 immigration laws that would allow Canadians to join.
> 
> PJ D-Dog



reeeeealllllyyy  >


----------



## JBP

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> In addition to all the training the Marines goes through, many of the couses are college accredited.  A Marine leaves boot camp and has three college credits.  As he takes more training, more college credits are accumulated.  MCI courses also count toward college credits.
> 
> I hope this clarifies things for you.
> 
> PJ D-Dog



Wow, I think that is a fantastic idea, another recruiting incentive and something else to think about while your on course. Even if it's just a "gimme" credit, it might help someone make the decision to try and go to college/school again which is great! The higher the education level in general, the better. GREAT incentive/stepping stone to want to go to college. Out of EVERYTHING I've heard about the US Marines, that and thier ability to kill I like best!

We need something like THAT in Canada...


----------



## Infanteer

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Now I'm going to cry. Because I really was considering going south, a country with values more akin to mine. Oh well, back to square one.



As I said before, we are all on the same team.  I am trying to figure out what difference in values there is - rule of law, elected democracy, political egalitarianism, sanctity of life, enshrined rights - they all seem to be shared by both us and the Americans.


----------



## McAllister

It's a fine team we're on. Doesn't get any better than this.


----------



## jyn

Don't you know that is a law in Canada about that; a canadian citizen can't joint another military forces. They must serve in Canada because we have a military forces too. An y think it's the same for any of those country who have military forces.


----------



## DogOfWar

jyn said:
			
		

> Don't you know that is a law in Canada about that; a canadian citizen can't joint another military forces. They must serve in Canada because we have a military forces too. An y think it's the same for any of those country who have military forces.



show us that law. I guarantee you are wrong.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Infanteer said:
			
		

> As I said before, we are all on the same team.   I am trying to figure out what difference in values there is - rule of law, elected democracy, political egalitarianism, sanctity of life, enshrined rights - they all seem to be shared by both us and the Americans.



Interesting. What about survival of the richest and/or most privileged? I would argue this is where the US blows us away ... brilliant, hard work really does pay off more handsomely in the states than in Canada as long as one keeps their nose clean. On the other hand, in Canada the rich and privileged [and only the rich and privileged]have the ability to negotiate with the government wrt to their fortunes and privileges as "equals", whereas in the US this does not appear to be the case. Look at Martha Stewart, Enron etc.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

jyn said:
			
		

> Don't you know that is a law in Canada about that; a canadian citizen can't joint another military forces. They must serve in Canada because we have a military forces too. An y think it's the same for any of those country who have military forces.



You need to provide substantiation on this statement.  What is your reference?  Which law states this?

I'd like to point out that I am a Canadian and I am serving in another nation's military and I've never even heard of this.  Please make sure your statements are accurate either through personal experience, reliable sources (more than one) or a legal written reference.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## jyn

Ok guys, i'll try to reach the information asap.
If i can, i would like to give you my opinion about that: You must have a good reason for prefere to serve another country than yours. If you didn't have permanent résidence in US for a while, and if its just for see  more action then in the CF, i think this reason is not very patriotic.
In CF we didn't see the same action but we are good in another kind. Keep peace, reconstruction. US forces need also peoples like us and we have to be proud to be Canadian. 
I evently not understand why Canadian  peoples would serve in US country ??.
Thats my opinion.


----------



## Infanteer

Read the posts in this thread and you'll find the answers to your question.  Don't feel that your opinions on service and motivation are shared by everybody else.


----------



## 1feral1

jyn said:
			
		

> Don't you know that is a law in Canada about that; a canadian citizen can't joint another military forces. They must serve in Canada because we have a military forces too. An y think it's the same for any of those country who have military forces.



Mate, who ever told you this does not have a single clue about reality. I am Canadian and a former member of the CF (served from 1976 to 1995), and I have over 10 yrs service here in Australia where I have met other Canadians, Britains, Americans, Newzealanders, South Africans, Fijians, and others who are proudly serving here in Australia. All citizens from other countries.

There is so such law as you seem to suggest.

However one must apply for citizenship within 90 days of being elegible, thats all. Yes and you can keep your citizenship from your country of origin too.


Regards,

Wes


----------



## Gunner

Sorry, I don't have a reference (US DoD statistics).

The number of foreign nationals enlisting in the U.S. military is dropping, even though service now provides a fast track to American citizenship, an Associated Press review of military data shows.  The decrease in non-citizen enlistees, who hail from countries such as the Philippines, Mexico, Nigeria and Germany, has hit all branches of the armed services, which are struggling with recruitment as the U.S. presence in Iraq passes the two-year mark.  The decline surprised immigration and military experts, who had expected that green-card-holders who might otherwise wait years to become Americans would have jumped at the citizenship offer President Bush extended nearly three years ago.  The annual number of non-citizen enlistees has fallen 20 percent from fiscal year 2001 - the last full year before the changes - to fiscal year 2004, according to military data. Much of the decline, from 11,829 to 9,477 recruits, came last year.  By comparison, annual enlistments among citizens dropped 12 percent, from 264,832 to 232,957 recruits.  President Bush pitched citizenship not as a selling point but as a reward for service. Last year, more than 7,500 people (already in uniform) gained citizenship through the military.  In July 2002, President Bush ordered automatic citizenship eligibility for foreign nationals on active duty who joined on or after Sept. 11, 2001 (citizenship also was granted to those who died in war and their families). In November 2003, President Bush signed legislation that let all non-citizens apply for citizenship after one year of service, rather than three.


----------



## PJ D-Dog

Just to shed some light on your statement, you still need to have a green card to be able to join the US military.  You can't just walk into the country and join the military.  The Dept of defense or the immigration service will not sponsor people for a green card just to join the military.  The executive order signed by President Bush to naturalize all resident aliens in the military doesn't change this fact.  The order was actually signed in July 2002.  This order provides a fast track to citizenship and waives the formerly required three years of residency for active duty military personnel.  Currently, you need only serve for one year before one becomes eligible for citizenship using the fast track.  Just thought I'd make the point.

PJ D-Dog


----------



## Hack

NO NO NO NO   -------------     Are the values espoused by the US Armed Forces the same as those of Canadians ??????????   -- NO NO NO NO

Although I understand the devotion that American's would have to their own great nation, I cannot see why a Canadian citizen, especially one who truly believes he/she epitomises the common values of the Canadian forces and Canadian people, would want to serve in the USA.

If you're truly committed to the ideals of defending freedom of choice, democracy, equality, and legitimacy, why would you want to serve for the US War Machine

I certainly do not assert that all members of the US Armed Forces or that all members of the American public are in support of war or the current directive of the US Armed Forces - but I no one can disagree that the United States has failed to(especially recently) follow international law.  America once proudly served the cause of freedom and championed a world where every nation would work to be free from imperialistic threat. Why then can they afford to so callously act as part of a narrow coalition based on fraudulent evidence, torture and humiliate captives who they refuse to call POW's, and still attempt to force other countries (North Korea) by threat of force, to follow international arms treaties.  America has refused to listen to the world and yet makes the same demands of many other nations.

I'm not here to USA bash, but I am here to say that our values are not represented by their forces.   If thats your idea of freedom, then by all means defend it. But I think we stand for something different in Canada,  and we've established that time and time again.
The US Military is a tool of the American government, and a tool can be made to do whatever its owner wants it do do


The question is,  who is your owner, and how will they put you to work


----------



## Infanteer

Hack said:
			
		

> I'm not here to USA bash



Really, you are not doing a good job of presenting it.  Keep it up and you'll find the door quickly.



> but I am here to say that our values are not represented by their forces.     If thats your idea of freedom, then by all means defend it. But I think we stand for something different in Canada,   and we've established that time and time again.



I'll say again, when it comes to the basics, you aren't going to find two countries closer together than the US and Canada - and I'm not talking about specific policies (which don't define "values" - if that was the case, what would the Gomery Commission make us?)


----------



## Hack

Neo-Socialist?          wtf?!

I'm not a socialist just because I believe in peace.    War should be the last step,  not the first one.


Do you remember what the justification for war in Iraq was?  GW Bush did NOT say "we're going to save the Kurds,  we're going to instill democracy"   He said 'Osama and Saddam are linked' and that 'Iraq has thousands of tonnes of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons' The UN weapons inspector had cleared Iraq before the invasion,   but he attacked nonetheless.
The supposed evidence of the US Gov didnt even exist!!!

So NOW the war is about democracy, NOW the war is about 'legitimate government'????         
Would congress have authorized hundreds of billions of dollars if that was the point?   Of course not      GW Bush created a threat to America,  and attacked that threat.    

If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,   why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.

The point of my post was this:   America's armed forces have been used for goals that are not in tune with the ideals that Canada has long stood for. Canada was not born of a revolution, we dont have a violent past, we dont have the need to constantly be at war.
Do you want to see the CF in the role that the American armed forces are in?     Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
No-one wants to attack us,   because we dont attack them.   
Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.

We can still be close friends and disagree on things,  and that IS where Canada presently stands.


If you alloted the 300 billion spent on the war thus far to internatonal aide and social programs, to peacekeeping and truly taking care of the world, then America's Social Insurance wouldnt be tanking, and there would be many less US flags going up in smoke right now.

And lastly, of course the US Gov does not have an official policy of 'torture' But that doesnt mean it wasnt authorized from the highest levels of government.  But if we lower ourselves to their level,  are we not terrorists, are these not crimes against humanity?

Grow Up Boys,    The world is both a beautiful and horrible place and we can't fix it by dropping bombs on people.

Look at the Marshall Plan after WWII,       America REBUILT all of Europe.    Money that is used for war can also be used for peace.
American soldiers are more often than not used for war,            I hope Canadian soldiers remain entrusted in the cause of peace.
And when we HAVE to,                we will fight like hell,  with pride, with honour, and for a justified end.


----------



## Infanteer

> Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
> No-one wants to attack us,   because we dont attack them.



Yep. head in the sand - just as I thought.



> Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.



...and nobody here with real-world experience is really listening to you.


----------



## scm77

Hack said:
			
		

> If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,   why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.



One of my favourite arguments of the anti-war crowd.  "War should be the last option, but if we gonna attack one country we should attack alot of other countries too."



> Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada? No-one wants to attack us, because we dont attack them.



Typical Canadian "head in the sand" "everybody loves us" thought.  Osama Bin Laden has named Canada as a target for Al Qaeda in atleast one of his messages.  SEE HERE
 ALSO MENTIONED HERE



> "No-one wants to attack us, because we don't attack them?"


  What about Operation Apollo Tthat was Canada (as part of US led coalition) attacking Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.  

Make no mistake there are plenty of people in the world who would love to kill each and every one of us.

That's about all of your nonsense I feel like commenting on for now. I'm sure someone else will sort the rest of your post out (I'm guessing Infanteer )

*Edit*: 2 replies when I was typing.  I got to learn to type faster. :blotto:


----------



## winchable

> America's armed forces have been used for goals that are not in tune with the ideals that Canada has long stood for



Apart from this, you're argument is entirely uneccessary anyway and most certainly is "US bashing."

If a Canadian doesn't feel their ideals are in tune with Canada and perhaps are more in tune with those of the US than shouldn't they serve the "tool" which most closely represents their ideals?

Now if Canadians were being pressed into service your argument may have some merit....



And just in general "wow"


----------



## Horse_Soldier

Hack said:
			
		

> Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
> No-one wants to attack us,     because we dont attack them.


You've hit 1 out of 3 - they don't want to attack us _for now_, but not because we're not an attractive target or because we don't attack them.   Remember that the jihadists despise everything a western democracy like Canada stands for.   We can go hand out chocolate bars and good-will all we want, it won't make them like us or even ignore us.   It has nothing to do with our lack of aggressivity.

Fact is, Canada, with it's open-arm refugee and immigration policies, its porous borders, its habit of handing out passports like candy and allowing the financing of terrorist groups (see Tamil Tigers), we are far more useful to the international terrorist set as a safe haven and supply base than as a target.   The day we stop being useful, they will target Canada and Canadians.


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## winchable

> handing out passports like candy



They won't give me one..


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## scm77

Perhaps if you had connections to Al Qaeda you could get Ottawa to give you an emergency passport like they did for these wonderful people.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/09/canada/khadr_20040409

 :rage:


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## Northern Touch

Got to this convo late, but I can't see a why someone would look down upon someone who wishes to go south and join the American Army.  

Their reasons are their reasons alone, and who are we to say they should or shouldn't?  Maybe they do want to see some action (what is the point in training as an infanteer and never using the training), maybe they like the faster promotion system, maybe they have personal (family) ties to the states, or maybe they want the greater chance to be "high speed" (that is very arguable of course, but Infanteer can comment on his friend who is getting that chance down south).  It all starts with the recruiting, bottom up.  People see the aura (sp?) created around the US armed forces and it attracts any young, physical, determined young man, American, Canadian, even possibly world wide.

Saying that we have different values doesn't really hold up.  Our values are very much the same, freedom of speech, freedom to make a living, live in peace, and all the rest of the stuff.  These are not just American or Canadian values but more towards NORTH AMERICAN values.  Even if our values are different, maybe people seem to forget that our older brother across the ocean, Britian, with very much the same values, especially since Canada was practically concieved from them, sent troops into Iraq, not just the US.  

People may see it differently, but I see us all on the same team.  Those planes could have easily headed a little farther north and hit Toronto or Ottawa.

Hey, if someone wants to go serve down south, all the power to them.  I don't know if I would, but I might seriously ponder it.


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## canadianblue

> Has there been a significant terror threat to Canada?
> No-one wants to attack us,   because we dont attack them.
> Im trying to argue that the US and Canadian ARMED FORCES have different ENDS, different goals.



Did anybody want to attack us in World War 2, or the Korean War, no. The reason why we went was because we thought that morally we had to go and intervene. As for the whole they don't want to attack us because we don't attack them, well I'm sure that more then a few dictators and people who ethnically clease others are happy about that, especially if the US adopted the same policy. 

We intervened in Afganistan, Kosovo, Korea, Europe, etc. So we have fought in war and taken a combat role.


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## ROTP Applicant

I truly believe that it is someone's choice whether or not to join the Marines. Nevertheless, the majority of Canadian people do not support this war and since these people fund the CF, we have to reflect their views through our actions (i.e. not going to war) whether we like it or not. However, I am genuinely curious to find out what some of your rebuttals to Hack's argument below may be.



			
				Hack said:
			
		

> Do you remember what the justification for war in Iraq was?  GW Bush did NOT say "we're going to save the Kurds,  we're going to instill democracy"   He said 'Osama and Saddam are linked' and that 'Iraq has thousands of tonnes of chemical, nuclear, and biological weapons' The UN weapons inspector had cleared Iraq before the invasion,   but he attacked nonetheless.
> The supposed evidence of the US Gov didnt even exist!!!
> 
> So NOW the war is about democracy, NOW the war is about 'legitimate government'????
> Would congress have authorized hundreds of billions of dollars if that was the point?   Of course not      GW Bush created a threat to America,  and attacked that threat.
> 
> If the war in Iraq is justified on the idea of instilling democracy,   why dont we attack Israel AND Palestine, Saudi, China, N. Korea, Iran, Sudan, Zimbabwe  etc etc.


  

So why has the US switched from the "we're going to eliminate the threat to the US national security" justification of the war, to the "we're going to bring democracy to Iraq" stance on the war??


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## DogOfWar

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Step one: grab back of head.
> Step two: pull hard to remove head from rear.
> 
> Your arguments are those of the mouthy, annoying anti-Bush protestor (like the many I encountered here when Bush came to town) who repeats what he has been spoon-fead from Michael Moore, the anti-war crowd, the CBC. I'm sorry, your arguments hold no water with me, or anyone else here. Bye bye.



Oh Piper you just dont understand. 

We are supposed to have an intervention with Osama. We just wait at his house until he comes home and then we'll say "Osama- all your friends and family are here and we care about you- but we are concerned about the direction your life is taking". See ? War isnt the answer. More talk is.

 :


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## canadianblue

> Oh Piper you just dont understand.
> 
> We are supposed to have an intervention with Osama. We just wait at his house until he comes home and then we'll say "Osama- all your friends and family are here and we care about you- but we are concerned about the direction your life is taking". See ? War isnt the answer. More talk is.



Yeah no doubt, that worked really well during the late 30's eh.


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## ROTP Applicant

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Because the 'US War Machine' actually gets sent to do its work. The 'Canadian War Machine' sits around gathering dust (with some notable exceptions, and the new CDS gives me hope



2332 Piper Just from that statement alone it seems as if you are bitter that the 'Canadian War Machine' is gathering dust while the US is â Å“doing its workâ ? (whatever it may be) and that you don't give a crap about the reasons for the war, but as long as you fight you are happy. Do you actually care about bringing democracy to the Iraqi people? If you answer yes, then why aren't you currently there helping out as a civilian contractor?



			
				2332Piper said:
			
		

> Step one: grab back of head.
> Step two: pull hard to remove head from rear.
> 
> Your arguments are those of the mouthy, annoying anti-Bush protestor (like the many I encountered here when Bush came to town) who repeats what he has been spoon-fead from Michael Moore, the anti-war crowd, the CBC. I'm sorry, your arguments hold no water with me, or anyone else here. Bye bye.



Hack provided a rebuttal to the counter-arguments you made yesterday in reply to his post, so the best you could do to rebut his statement is â Å“Step one:..... Step two:.......â ?? Very mature. Since you have such strong views on this issue, please provide an educated response to the request I have made earlier today. Thanks in advance.


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## Infanteer

ROTP Civi U said:
			
		

> Since you have such strong views on this issue, please provide an educated response to the request I have made earlier today. Thanks in advance.



I've got friends who've been to and/or are preparing to go to the Sandbox (in both the US and the CF) and I've spoken with a quite a few guys who've been their and done that - Hack's comments are out to lunch.

We're pretty much fed up with the "US War Machine" line of debate here.   Most of us don't feel the need to repeat ourselves everytime some armchair General comes in here ranting about how "Bush Sux", especially when the arguments are as naive as some of Mr "Hack"s.

But, since you asked, here is thoughts on general strategy in Southwest Asia:



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> I am not to sure exactly what you're asking me here, but I'll try to answer it.
> 
> With regards to Iraq, I think going in was a good strategy....



Here is a discussion that pretty much shoots the "unilateral imperialism" idea to pieces (something Mr CIVU never even bothered to respond to):



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> So, what is the level of consensus required to not be "unilateral" - it seems to get broader everytime it gets brought up....



And finally, here is a discussion about the silliness of the title "War on Terror" and trying to apply it to what is really happening, both in Iraq and the Middle East in general:



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Agree here as well, but in part.   I'm not so sure it is a conflict with an "extreme fringe" of Islamic (Arab?   Middle Eastern?) culture....



Happy Reading,

Infanteer


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## ROTP Applicant

Steve99 said:
			
		

> That's a pretty big accusation to make on someone you don't know.   You may as well accuse everyone who wants to serve in the U.S. military as just "wanting to go to war" because they have a different opinion than you.   Your argument is weak because if everyone became a civilian contractor, to avoid a negative image by some, who would be left to be a soldier? Edit: I should mention Piper is good friend of mine from school.
> 
> -Steve
> Just a civilian finishing high school, for now.



What accusation? I made it clear that that's the image of himself he was portraying through his statement (notice the phrase "it seems" that I used). I did not accuse him of anything. Secondly, when you stated "...because they have a different opinion than you", which of my opinions are you referring to? As far as I know, none of my opinions related to any of Piper's arguments and/or opinions. Finally, I did not provide any of my arguments; I merely asked him a straight-forward question which asks him if he is so passionate in helping bring democracy to Iraq, why doesn't he become a civilian contractor (assuming he can't be a Canadian/US soldier serving there).


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## ROTP Applicant

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Finally, read my profile. Maybye you will then realise why I'm not a civvie contractor. Keep this thread un-stupid.



If you look at my posts in this thread, you will notice that I have not expressed ANY of personal opinions on OIF. So your statement that confidently articulates how I totally agree with Hack's opinion was pulled out of your a*s, and that is a fact. As to reading your profile and you not being a civi-contractor, well maybe you should read what I have previously written ("assuming he can't be a Canadian/US soldier serving there"). I'm truly hoping you weren't directing the "Keep this thread un-stupid" advice towards me, but if you are, then maybe you should take you own advice. My discussion with you is over as it does not relate to the thread's topic, but if you want to continue, feel free to PM me.


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## DogOfWar

ROTP Civi U said:
			
		

> If you look at my posts in this thread, you will notice that I have not expressed ANY of personal opinions on OIF. So your statement that confidently articulates how I totally agree with Hack's opinion was pulled out of your a*s, and that is a fact. As to reading your profile and you not being a civi-contractor, well maybe you should read what I have previously written ("assuming he can't be a Canadian/US soldier serving there"). I'm truly hoping you weren't directing the "Keep this thread un-stupid" advice towards me, but if you are, then maybe you should take you own advice. My discussion with you is over as it does not relate to the thread's topic, but if you want to continue, feel free to PM me.



Its not as easy as just becoming a civi contractor. If I knew where to stat I would.


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## Infanteer

PJ D-Dog is going to kick all your asses for wrecking his thread....


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## scm77

Split it off to a new thread?


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## I_am_John_Galt

ROTP Civi U said:
			
		

> So why has the US switched from the "we're going to eliminate the threat to the US national security" justification of the war, to the "we're going to bring democracy to Iraq" stance on the war??



Um, there were 3 reasons he gave on March 19, 2003 (you know, when Bush outlines his justification of the war, at the beginning of the speech in which the war was declared)?


> *President Bush Addresses the Nation*
> The Oval Office
> 
> 10:16 P.M. EST
> 
> THE PRESIDENT: My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to *disarm Iraq*_ {Reason #1 (enforce various UN Resolutions)}_, *to free its people*_ {Reason #2 (democracy)}_ and *to defend the world from grave danger*_ {Reason #3 (unreported status of WMD programs)}_. ...
> 
> We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people.


 (etc., etc., etc.)  http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html



> Hack provided a rebuttal to the counter-arguments you made yesterday in reply to his post, so the best you could do to rebut his statement is â Å“Step one:..... Step two:.......â ?? Very mature.


There's a difference between "rebuttal" and ad hominem accusations!


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## DogOfWar

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Could I ask why?



Because I believe the whole world has a responsibilty to rebuild Iraq and the Afghan. i want to do my part and the Canadian government wont let me go under there flag so id go under my own.


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## 48Highlander

ROTP Civi U said:
			
		

> So why has the US switched from the "we're going to eliminate the threat to the US national security" justification of the war, to the "we're going to bring democracy to Iraq" stance on the war??



Just to add to John's explanation (not that yours wasn't good enough John! just adding a few more examples), take a look at this:

Excert from President Bush's speech to the UN on 12 September 2002:



> Twelve years ago, Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation. To suspend hostilities, to spare himself, Iraq's dictator accepted a series of commitments. The terms were clear, to him and to all. And he agreed to prove he is complying with every one of those obligations.
> In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities -- which the Council said, threatened international peace and security in the region. This demand goes ignored. Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights found that Iraq continues to commit extremely grave violations of human rights, and that the regime's repression is all pervasive.
> In 1991, the U.N. Security Council, through Resolutions 686 and 687, demanded that Iraq return all prisoners from Kuwait and other lands. Iraq's regime agreed. It broke its promise.



Obviously, unlike you, president Bush understands that the 1991 war nver really ended.  Iraq was "on parole", a parole which Sadam continuously violated.

Moreover, if you take the time to do a few searches, you will see that the US administration listed multiple reasons for invading Iraq, and they did it before any soldiers hit the ground.  "WMD" were a convinient rallying-cry, which they fed to the media, and which the media happily bleeted on about for the next few months.  I'm sure it sold a lot of papers, and gave newscasters a lot to get excited about.  At the same time, Bush was talking about freedom for the Iraqi people, stability of the region, eliminating a source of funding for terrorist groups, reducing or at least focusing terrorism, etc, et al.  The media generaly ignored these things because they weren't very exciting; your average citizen is much more likely to tune in to a newscast featuring 3D full colour CGI graphics of cruise missiles and mushroom clouds, than they are for the president talking about democratic elections and tactics for curbing terrorism.  Those of us who actually bothered to listen knew that the motivations behind going into Iraq were quite complex, and could hardly be named in one sentence.  Those who only paid attention to short blurbs on CNN thought it was only about WMD.  And those who had no intention of listening to anything except Michael Moore are still convinced the whole thing is about oil.  So be it.  But before you go accusing Bush of flip-flopping, try doing a bit of research.  The man clearly stated his reasons; that you weren't listening is your own damn problem.


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## PJ D-Dog

This thread is intended to discuss whether or not you would join the US Marines if it were open to Canadians.  It is not here to debate the pros and cons of the war in Iraq.  Start a new topic is you want to discuss it but keep to the subject at hand.

A Canadian wanting to join the US military in order to have a better career and life opportunities should not be shat upon because of his choices.  Going south of the border to join the military does not make one less of a Canadian.  Those who do go south for these reasons should not be painted with the wide "war monger" brush as this is not the case.  I would hope that those contributing on this forum will show some respect to those of us who have made the move south and not just make outlandish statements of "the US war machine" etc...

Let's all dog gone get a dog gone grip and dog gone stick to the dog gone topic at hand.

PJ D-Dog


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## Infanteer

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> Let's all dog gone get a dog gone grip and dog gone stick to the dog gone topic at hand.





Prepping for Parris Island I see....  ;D


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## danielbouchard

I'm canadian, i serv canadians.


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## I_am_John_Galt

danielbouchard said:
			
		

> I'm canadian, i serv canadians.



I"m Canadian; I serve Canadian _values_.


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## 48Highlander

The sad thing is that these days you can much more effectively "serve canadians" by being part of the US military.  It's one of the reasons I'd sign up in a second if given the opportunity.


----------



## ROTP Applicant

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> I"m Canadian; I serve Canadian _values_.





			
				48Highlander said:
			
		

> The sad thing is that these days you can much more effectively "serve canadians" by being part of the US military.  It's one of the reasons I'd sign up in a second if given the opportunity.





			
				2332Piper said:
			
		

> Because the 'US War Machine' actually gets sent to do its work. The 'Canadian War Machine' sits around gathering dust (with some notable exceptions, and the new CDS gives me hope...). And oh by the way, thats what the US is defending right now. If you have any idea as to what you think they are up to, don't hesitate to tell us.
> 
> Yeah, these days we [Canadians] stand for doing nothing.



   I've said this earlier and I'll say it again; I completely support anyone who joins the Marines as it is their choice, and freedom of choice is one of our greatest values. Nevertheless, I've noticed a few trends from reading this thread. It appears to me that many of you believe that in order to serve Canadian values one must be in the military and serve abroad so these values could be implemented to the citizens of another nation (i.e. bring democracy, free speech, freedom to a trial, etc). It is very easy to SAY that we as Canadians are not defending our values and that "these days we stand for doing nothing", but what have you DONE to defend these values? And if you have done something, then I thank you and please keep on doing it. This is very cliché, but actions speak louder than words.
   If you want to defend these Canadian values then go do something about it. Volunteer for an organization that supports bringing democracy to Iraq, Nigeria, etc.; donate money to a NGO/charity that supports the Canadian values by helping others around the world; go as a civilian to a nation that you feel needs the support of Canada and its values, etc. etc. etc. 
     And yes many of you may think, what does he know, he's just some 19 year-old OCdt. But, what I do know is that a person does not need a rifle and a cap badge to serve the Canadian values and to serve the Canadian people.


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## Sh0rtbUs

Well, if you're a soldier and good at it, why not offer your expertise to those who need it? 

As far as Volunteering goes, Volunteer work is nice but it doesnt put food on the table for your family. Slightly ironic how you used the term "actions speak louder than words". Maybe we should send that up the line and see if our Politicians and brass catch wind...

I believe that a line needs to be drawn here. I'm not flaming the Canadian Military, i have the utmost respect for it and it's members. It's the beurocratic bench warmers and "live under a rock" citizens that get me hot under the collar.


----------



## Tpr Parsons

I for one, being Canadian, would consider the possibility of joining the USMC if I wereallowed. Even though the arguments at hand (that were in response to the original question/poll) were well thought out and expressed (in most cases), I would consider the USMC as a career choice. As it was once stated, the Marines physical conditioning is outstanding and well-known, plus the pride that is achieved and retained by a Marine is also outstanding. Don't get me wrong, being in the CF I am extremely proud to say I am a Soldier serving this country, and am very honoured by it.

 The physical fitness or PT I believe should be raised a level or 2, and done more often if possible. Some people don't have the motivation to go to the gym or go out for a run, if it was in a days schedule more or done at a higher level, I believe the CF as a whole would benefit from it. I would, thats for sure!  

 Back to the question at hand, Yes I would join the USMC if I were allowed to. As Sh0rtbUs said, "if you're a soldier and good at it, why not offer your expertise to those who need it?" I totally agree with you on that.   

 Either way I'm proud to serve, we are on the same team anyways? And who knows... maybe in a few years we will be under new leadership that we voted on, and we could find ourselves over fighting along side the US Soldiers for the cause of freedom and anti-terrorism acts. They have aided us and we have aided them, time and time again... I say, why stop now?


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## PJ D-Dog

I think it can work both ways.  There are some things about the CF the Marines could take a lesson from and vice versa.

In the CF, the professional development at the individual soldier level is far better than what you have in the Marines.  Marines focus on individual skills in relation to collective training.  Professional development outside MOS training is secondary although that is changing quickly.  Up until recently, there were no formal schools requirement for promotion from Staff Sgt to Gunny.  Now they are begining to make it mandatory.  It is starting at the top and slowly flowing down to the bottom.  In the coming years, we will see many more PME requirements for promotions (professional military education).

PJ D-Dog


----------

