# Victoria Rifles of Canada



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Wyn van der Schee <vandersw@cadvision.com>* on *Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:33:15 -0600*
Just to set the record straight, I want to correct a few errors that have
appeared in postings from John Hill and Rhett Lawson. The 3rd Victoria
Rifles did indeed raise a company for 14th Infantry Battalion CEF, but
later raised three battalions on their own, the 24th, 60th and 214th. Both
the 24th and the 60th were combatant battalions, and the 244th was broken
up for reinforcements in England.
As stated by another correspondent, the 58th Westmount Rifles was raised on
2 November 1914 as a Militia unit and was redesignated The Royal Montreal
Regiment on 1 April 1920 it perpetuates 14th Battalion CEF. The reasons
for the perpetuation are baffling, as the 14th Battalion CEF was raised by
1st Canadian Grenadier Guards, 3rd Victoria Rifles of Canada, and 65th
Carabiniers de Montreal, and should have been perpetuated by one or all of
those. The 14th Bn CEF had already arrived in England by the time the 58th
Westmount Rifles was raised.
The point to be made is that the RMR did not replace the Vics in the
militia order of battle, and it does the Vics a disservice to imply that
their battalions did not see active service in the First World War.
Additionally, the 14th Battalion CEF did not amalgamate with the 58th
Westmount Rifles to form The Royal Montreal Regiment. It is a fine
distinction, but the 58th were renamed the RMR and allowed to perpetuate
the 14th Bn CEF. In the larger picture, CEF battalions were not amalgamated
with Militia units, but were disbanded and then perpetuated.
The basic textbook for all of this is still The Regiments and Corps of the
Canadian Army, published in 1965, and if the self-proclaimed experts on
regimental histories would read it first, a great deal less misinformation
would appear in this newsgroup.
Wyn van der Schee
Calgary, Alberta
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 08 Apr 2000 21:23:46 -0600*
You speak of misinformation...you‘re with R2000 aren‘t you?  And you‘re
chatising members of this newgroup for misinformation...get a life
buddy!  There‘s nothing wrong with this newsgroup or the so called
experts.  Let the reader beware of the information they recieve and let
them decide.  You are more then welcome to post your version and if it‘s
correct, well done to you. Hold your snide comments to yourself.  
Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> 
> Just to set the record straight, I want to correct a few errors that have
> appeared in postings from John Hill and Rhett Lawson. The 3rd Victoria
> Rifles did indeed raise a company for 14th Infantry Battalion CEF, but
> later raised three battalions on their own, the 24th, 60th and 214th. Both
> the 24th and the 60th were combatant battalions, and the 244th was broken
> up for reinforcements in England.
> As stated by another correspondent, the 58th Westmount Rifles was raised on
> 2 November 1914 as a Militia unit and was redesignated The Royal Montreal
> Regiment on 1 April 1920 it perpetuates 14th Battalion CEF. The reasons
> for the perpetuation are baffling, as the 14th Battalion CEF was raised by
> 1st Canadian Grenadier Guards, 3rd Victoria Rifles of Canada, and 65th
> Carabiniers de Montreal, and should have been perpetuated by one or all of
> those. The 14th Bn CEF had already arrived in England by the time the 58th
> Westmount Rifles was raised.
> The point to be made is that the RMR did not replace the Vics in the
> militia order of battle, and it does the Vics a disservice to imply that
> their battalions did not see active service in the First World War.
> Additionally, the 14th Battalion CEF did not amalgamate with the 58th
> Westmount Rifles to form The Royal Montreal Regiment. It is a fine
> distinction, but the 58th were renamed the RMR and allowed to perpetuate
> the 14th Bn CEF. In the larger picture, CEF battalions were not amalgamated
> with Militia units, but were disbanded and then perpetuated.
> The basic textbook for all of this is still The Regiments and Corps of the
> Canadian Army, published in 1965, and if the self-proclaimed experts on
> regimental histories would read it first, a great deal less misinformation
> would appear in this newsgroup.
> Wyn van der Schee
> Calgary, Alberta
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Lawson" <kplawson@csolve.net>* on *Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:48:45 -0400*
Wyn:
         Regarding Your DND Official publication I agree it has the
authority of NDHQ and the Old Army,  I have used it for years but always
cross check as inaccurate information is now being quoted as gospel of the
highest source.
  Example Royal Canadian Army service Corps date of origin in Regiments and
Corps indicates 1906  order in council as senior Canadian Service Corps as
1901, Corps history has photo copy of orders,  Medical Corps followed,
Corps history also indicates first enlistment were six cooks followed by
various Waggoner trades.
 So that would indicate that senior non arms trades of Canadian Military is
Cook. Corps History as taught in Pamphlets issued by RCASCS in late 1950s
7 early 60s reports reasons for regular cooks was that Militia  Reserve
Units in central Canada had indicated they would not attend summer training
unless rations and preparations of such improved. Previous British ASC Cooks
had of course been withdrawn with British support presence and contracting
to local civilian food sources had replaced,  sound familiar with normal
political favoritism and poor quality as result.
  Canada must have achieved a good expertise in this area as by early years
of WW II a Canadian RCASC Colonel was responsible for designing various
commonwealth national army ration scales. These scales were still in use
until mid 1960s.
  It was always suggested that error in Regiments and  Corps had originated
with Photograph of 1906 kitchens in Petawawa summer concentration.
  Such errors are wide spread and becoming more noticeable. I would strongly
suggest as reference "Wait For The Wagon  RCASC History published 1961 for
the occasion of the Corps Silver Jubilee and upcoming "The Last Wagon"
being prepared by various members of RCASC Associations for the hundred year
celebrations
 The RCASC had by far the largest strength of any single Canadian Military
Corps, it was an extremely diverse logistics field support organization,
with trades from Food to Air Resupply. For instance unlike our British
counter parts during WW II we had no Glider Pilot Regiment our Glider pilots
were Senior NCOs of the RCASC as were all kickers and load masters in the
European theatre.
 Remember the since of logistics is the most widely misunderstood of the
military arts, more battles and wars have been lost over this simple fact
then bad leadership or faulty tactics.
Keith Lawson
NIL SINE LABORE
----- Original Message -----
From: Gunner 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: Victoria Rifles of Canada
> You speak of misinformation...you‘re with R2000 aren‘t you?  And you‘re
> chatising members of this newgroup for misinformation...get a life
> buddy!  There‘s nothing wrong with this newsgroup or the so called
> experts.  Let the reader beware of the information they recieve and let
> them decide.  You are more then welcome to post your version and if it‘s
> correct, well done to you. Hold your snide comments to yourself.
>
> Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> >
> > Just to set the record straight, I want to correct a few errors that
have
> > appeared in postings from John Hill and Rhett Lawson. The 3rd Victoria
> > Rifles did indeed raise a company for 14th Infantry Battalion CEF, but
> > later raised three battalions on their own, the 24th, 60th and 214th.
Both
> > the 24th and the 60th were combatant battalions, and the 244th was
broken
> > up for reinforcements in England.
> > As stated by another correspondent, the 58th Westmount Rifles was raised
on
> > 2 November 1914 as a Militia unit and was redesignated The Royal
Montreal
> > Regiment on 1 April 1920 it perpetuates 14th Battalion CEF. The reasons
> > for the perpetuation are baffling, as the 14th Battalion CEF was raised
by
> > 1st Canadian Grenadier Guards, 3rd Victoria Rifles of Canada, and 65th
> > Carabiniers de Montreal, and should have been perpetuated by one or all
of
> > those. The 14th Bn CEF had already arrived in England by the time the
58th
> > Westmount Rifles was raised.
> > The point to be made is that the RMR did not replace the Vics in the
> > militia order of battle, and it does the Vics a disservice to imply that
> > their battalions did not see active service in the First World War.
> > Additionally, the 14th Battalion CEF did not amalgamate with the 58th
> > Westmount Rifles to form The Royal Montreal Regiment. It is a fine
> > distinction, but the 58th were renamed the RMR and allowed to perpetuate
> > the 14th Bn CEF. In the larger picture, CEF battalions were not
amalgamated
> > with Militia units, but were disbanded and then perpetuated.
> > The basic textbook for all of this is still The Regiments and Corps of
the
> > Canadian Army, published in 1965, and if the self-proclaimed experts on
> > regimental histories would read it first, a great deal less
misinformation
> > would appear in this newsgroup.
> > Wyn van der Schee
> > Calgary, Alberta
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Hill" <jhill66@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:08:11 PDT*
Thank you for the correction!  As I said, my memory was fuzzy on the 
details.
>Just to set the record straight, I want to correct a few errors that have
>appeared in postings from John Hill and Rhett Lawson. The 3rd Victoria
>Rifles did indeed raise a company for 14th Infantry Battalion CEF, but
>later raised three battalions on their own, the 24th, 60th and 214th. Both
>the 24th and the 60th were combatant battalions, and the 244th was broken
>up for reinforcements in England.
>As stated by another correspondent, the 58th Westmount Rifles was raised on
>2 November 1914 as a Militia unit and was redesignated The Royal Montreal
>Regiment on 1 April 1920 it perpetuates 14th Battalion CEF. The reasons
>for the perpetuation are baffling, as the 14th Battalion CEF was raised by
>1st Canadian Grenadier Guards, 3rd Victoria Rifles of Canada, and 65th
>Carabiniers de Montreal, and should have been perpetuated by one or all of
>those. The 14th Bn CEF had already arrived in England by the time the 58th
>Westmount Rifles was raised.
>The point to be made is that the RMR did not replace the Vics in the
>militia order of battle, and it does the Vics a disservice to imply that
>their battalions did not see active service in the First World War.
>Additionally, the 14th Battalion CEF did not amalgamate with the 58th
>Westmount Rifles to form The Royal Montreal Regiment. It is a fine
>distinction, but the 58th were renamed the RMR and allowed to perpetuate
>the 14th Bn CEF. In the larger picture, CEF battalions were not amalgamated
>with Militia units, but were disbanded and then perpetuated.
>The basic textbook for all of this is still The Regiments and Corps of the
>Canadian Army, published in 1965, and if the self-proclaimed experts on
>regimental histories would read it first, a great deal less misinformation
>would appear in this newsgroup.
>Wyn van der Schee
>Calgary, Alberta
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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