# Why don't we point?



## Jarnhamar (10 Dec 2011)

Bit of an odd ball question.

Since being a recruit I've always been told that instructors can't point with their finger towards a student (or whoever).

If an instructor wants to single someone out they "point" with their whole hand, like a big 5 fingered point.

What's the difference between pointing at someone with their finger and pointing at them with your whole hand, aside from the latter looking silly.


----------



## aesop081 (10 Dec 2011)

I've never done that....i've always pointed at students with one finger........

WTF did you get that from ?


----------



## cupper (10 Dec 2011)

Does playing poke-chest count?


----------



## dangerboy (10 Dec 2011)

I have never heard that.  I usually use my pace stick to point but have used my finger..


----------



## the 48th regulator (10 Dec 2011)

I Have heard that, and used to see people do the full hand point.  I hated it, it looked oh so "keener instructor" looking.

I think it was just a habit formed from the old saying never point as it is not polite.  It is also an old concept used by public speakers.  Watch politicians speak, they never point.  The one I see a lot looks like they are holding a want in their hand, almost like a fist.

dileas

tess


----------



## MikeL (10 Dec 2011)

Kinda related to the 5 finger point aka Knife Hand  


http://terminallance.com/2010/08/27/terminal-lance-59-knife-hand-anger-gauge/


----------



## ekpiper (10 Dec 2011)

I've always heard that referred to as 'indicating'.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (10 Dec 2011)

I was always told to, "POINT WITH YOUR WHOLE HAND!".
Always wondered why.

Now it's habit.

And it's too bad, 'cause my "pointing finger" is sexy as f_ck.


----------



## TN2IC (10 Dec 2011)

One finger is very powerful for the instructor,  but a whole hand gesture means the power of God! So fear me now before I teach a drill class!


----------



## Gunner98 (13 Dec 2011)

I was always taught that it was OK to point at an object but not at a person.  In the military setting, the long fickle, finger of fate was usually used to indicate someone doing something wrong and was accompanied by a "Hey you *#$%".  I seem to recall it was seen in bad taste to point in the mid-90s (in Cornwallis anyways) much like swearing at individual recruits was deemed as inappropriate (the whole section, platoon - OK).  I seem to recall that instructors were told that unless that something that someone was doing was dangerous that a  "Stop" was just as effective as a "Hey you".  Getting to know and using your recruits last names was emphasized.


----------



## Scott (13 Dec 2011)

My Pl WO on QL2 always did the five fingered point while chopping his palm when emphasizing a point. Drove me fucking batty.

I've been pointed at. I have had the aforementioned hand of God chopping the palm (for ten weeks). I always remembered that first I had to unfuck whatever it was that got me pointed at, in whatever fashion you wish, before having hurt feelings about it. I never found it to be a problem, but that's just me.


----------



## lethalLemon (13 Dec 2011)

I don't know the reason, I just used to have old men (mainly Patricia's... teehee) yell at me for it as a cadet


----------



## Jungle (13 Dec 2011)

One possible explanation comes from Para training; when doing aircraft drill, after the "Sound Off For Eqpt Check", the number one jumper signals OK to the Jumpmaster by yelling and pointing with his open hand. If the candidate points with his finger, he is told to point with his full hand; not sure why, but it may have to do with doing the drill with mits, where pointing the finger is difficult.


----------



## Robert0288 (13 Dec 2011)

I know in as a hockey ref we're told the same thing.  I checked the standards guide and the answer isn't a very good one.  Its along the lines of; 'When calling a penalty, the referee should use an open hand to indicate the player, not a single finger'.  Amongst the justifications I've heard is that it appears 'too aggressive' and may antangonize the player.  Although that player usually just finished smacking somone upside the head with a stick, so I would say he's pretty antagonized prior to being kicked out.


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Dec 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Bit of an odd ball question.
> 
> Since being a recruit I've always been told that instructors can't point with their finger towards a student (or whoever).
> 
> ...



I've never heard of that. Are you from the East Coast?  

Out west we point with our drill canes or pace sticks, fingers, hands  and sometimes we just yell "HEY YOU". That gets everyones attention.....some of it not good attention either...


----------



## cupper (13 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I've never heard of that. Are you from the East Coast?
> 
> Out west we point with our drill canes or pace sticks, fingers, hands  and sometimes we just yell "HEY YOU". That gets everyones attention.....some of it not good attention either...



But out west where you can see your dog running away from home for days, I would suspect that you would want to use the whole hand for better resolution at farther distances. 

It could be for safety reasons, in case you have an ND with your finger, no one gets hurt.


----------



## SupersonicMax (13 Dec 2011)

No problem with that here...  I point with my elbow.


----------



## brihard (13 Dec 2011)

I'm thinking the 'ten monkeys in a cage' banana-electrocution experiment is at play here...


----------



## daftandbarmy (13 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I've never heard of that. Are you from the East Coast?
> 
> Out west we point with our drill canes or pace sticks, fingers, hands  and sometimes we just yell "HEY YOU". That gets everyones attention.....some of it not good attention either...



You should try the finger pointing gesture used in the Phillipines for a change. If nothing else, you'll get extra marks for seeming 'worldly', if not downright friendly....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZdCxMafdFg


----------



## McG (13 Dec 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> If an instructor wants to single someone out they "point" with their whole hand, like a big 5 fingered point.


Go with a two finger point (index & middle).  It is more aggressive than either one finger or open hand.
rly:



			
				Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I know in as a hockey ref we're told the same thing.  I checked the standards guide and the answer isn't a very good one.


The full open hand is probably easier to see from the perspective of the spectators - as a standard it would work in a small town rink or for an NHL game.  Could this be it?


----------



## jasonf6 (13 Dec 2011)

Man, I wish the worst thing they did was point at me during my basic years and years ago.  Much better than barrack box punishment or going 'round the smoking area on your hands and knees picking weeds up all the while mooing like cows.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (13 Dec 2011)

Oh...screw it....Im'a just point like this from now on;


----------



## brihard (13 Dec 2011)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Oh...screw it....Im'a just point like this from now on;



I've seen a weird variation where the index finger is curled into the thumb, the second, middle, and little finger extended fully. Bizarre.

I find yours simply shocking though.


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> Man, I wish the worst thing they did was point at me during my basic years and years ago.  Much better than barrack box punishment or going 'round the smoking area on your hands and knees picking weeds up all the while mooing like cows.



Darn, nw you've gone and made me all nostalgic about the suff we used to do to recruits to build character. Snif... :'(


----------



## medicineman (14 Dec 2011)

I always remember this Brit math teacher I had in Grade 10 (the first time around) - he always pointed with his middle finger, which alot of us found funny, unless it was being directed at ourselves, when it wasn't anymore...took him the whole year he was on exchange to figure that out.  It could very well be a manners thing...having one finger pointed directly at you in our culture is considered kind of threatening and rude, escpecially if coupled with a "Wake the (add your own series of colourful expletives) up you (add again) dummy"...we are supposed to be a kinder gentler bunch now  ;D.  An open hand shows there is nothing threatening in it and still gets the "point" across that said person indicated is being  singled out.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Robert0288 (14 Dec 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've seen a weird variation where the index finger is curled into the thumb, the second, middle, and little finger extended fully. Bizarre.



The 3 fingered point?  Yes that one is definitely special.



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> The full open hand is probably easier to see from the perspective of the spectators - as a standard it would work in a small town rink or for an NHL game.  Could this be it?


I don't think so as you use a full arm arm extension so that it is parallel to the ice.  I think I'm going to agree with Brihard on this one.  This is the way its always been done, therefore you shall do it as well.

My course staff did the one finger point once.  As the MCpl was walking past about 10m out, he suddenly stopped in front of me and turned.  Arm raised slowly, and pointing at me.  Then he slowly advanced one step at a time over the course of 20 seconds.  Needless to say, that MCpl was extremely good at finding faults and communicating them to us.

Tangent to random stuff.  After consultation with the PAM the staff found that the only way to scare away the kit monster was to run around the shacks with rifles over our heads yelling.. stuff.  Good times.


----------



## jasonf6 (14 Dec 2011)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Darn, nw you've gone and made me all nostalgic about the suff we used to do to recruits to build character. Snif... :'(



Hehe, the best part was having a MBdr sitting in the instuctor's office, window open, yelling at us the whole time.  And he wasn't even with my course.


----------



## Swingline1984 (14 Dec 2011)

Is pointing not considered an insult in some areas of the middle east?  I know as part of a deployment brief we were told to indicate with the full hand vice pointing with a single digit.  We were told this along with never point the bottom of your foot at someone.


----------



## jasonf6 (14 Dec 2011)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> Is pointing not considered an insult in some areas of the middle east?  I know as part of a deployment brief we were told to indicate with the full hand vice pointing with a single digit.  We were told this along with never point the bottom of your foot at someone.


It may be but we aren't in the middle east. 

And yes, showing the bottom of your foot in that area, and others I'm sure, is very insulting.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (14 Dec 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I find yours simply shocking though.



Well played, sir.....


----------



## Swingline1984 (14 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> It may be but we aren't in the middle east.



rly:  Reeaallllly?


----------



## dimsum (14 Dec 2011)

Pointing is considered an insult not just in the ME.  It's the same (probably not with the same....reaction) in parts of Asia, especially Japan.  When we were visited by a detachment from the JMSDF, part of our host briefings were specifically to "point" using an open hand.

Of course, those same briefings told us that Smoked Salmon was a prized gift when the local sushi chef (recently-ish moved from Japan) started belly-laughing when I asked if it was still the case.   :facepalm:


----------



## Maxadia (14 Dec 2011)

It's a non-agressive gesture.  Pointing with one finger is singling you out as someone who has done something stupid, whereas one full hand is more like "explaining" the situation to you instead of blaming.

Kind of like using the right or left side to defuse an agressive situation with your hands up.  Leaning left says "whoa, whoa...let's all calm down"......while leaning in with the right says "Okay now, look here, if you DON'T calm down..."


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Dec 2011)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> You should try the finger pointing gesture used in the Phillipines for a change. If nothing else, you'll get extra marks for seeming 'worldly', if not downright friendly....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZdCxMafdFg



In Malaysia you point with a loose fist with the thumb on top aligned with the item/person being pointed at, the thumb should not extend beyond the knurlled up knuckles.


----------



## jasonf6 (14 Dec 2011)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> rly:  Reeaallllly?


I know it was stating the obvious but I don't see why we need to worry about what someone does in another part of the world here.  If pointing at someone insults them because they are from a part of the world where it's a massive insult to their honor so what, we aren't there right now but they are here.  

My point is that no matter where you go something that you consider a non-issue may send someone into a speed-wobble somewhere else.  If we walk around praying that the next thing we do or say doesn't land us in front of the H.R.C. it's going to suck.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> I know it was stating the obvious but I don't see why we need to worry about what someone does in another part of the world here.  If pointing at someone insults them because they are from a part of the world where it's a massive insult to their honor so what, we aren't there right now but they are here.
> 
> My point is that no matter where you go something that you consider a non-issue may send someone into a speed-wobble somewhere else.  If we walk around praying that the next thing we do or say doesn't land us in front of the H.R.C. it's going to suck.



My wife does some cashier work. Her right hand is on the cash register. She scans the products with her left. There are some customers that absolutely lose their minds when she hands them their change with her left hand. They will drop the change and refuse to pick it up.

At least until she starts the conveyor and it starts going away. 


_edit - grammar_


----------



## Swingline1984 (14 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> I know it was stating the obvious but I don't see why we need to worry about what someone does in another part of the world here.  If pointing at someone insults them because they are from a part of the world where it's a massive insult to their honor so what, we aren't there right now but they are here.
> 
> My point is that no matter where you go something that you consider a non-issue may send someone into a speed-wobble somewhere else.  If we walk around praying that the next thing we do or say doesn't land us in front of the H.R.C. it's going to suck.



"My point" (no, not the one on top of my head) was simply that some may have started teaching the full hand indication vice finger point as it was taught for the last 10 years on pre-deployment training.


----------



## Swingline1984 (14 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> My wife does some cashier work. Her right hand is on the cash register. She scans the products with her left. There are some customers that absolutely lose their minds when she hands them their change with her left hand. They will drop the change and refuse to pick it up.
> 
> At least until she starts the conveyor it it starts going away.



A strategically placed tip bucket ought to solve that problem


----------



## cupper (14 Dec 2011)

Pointing with an open hand does have an advantage in that you can transition to a dope slap upside the head without them even seeing it coming. ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Dec 2011)

SloMo Bitchslap


----------



## daftandbarmy (14 Dec 2011)

Snipers shoot 'pointers':

During the stalking phase of his attack a sniper will, if time allows, try to identify high-value targets such as senior officers or senior NCOs. He will do this by closely observing the behavior of the people in front of him. His intention is to identify who is in charge and then prepare to fire at them. It naturally follows that leaders should attempt to blend into the background by avoiding anything that distinguishes them from the most junior soldiers and attracts the interest of a sniper. In order to reduce a sniper's ability to damage the chain of command, doctrine and equipment need to prevent any observable "leadership" behaviors and signs. Insignia, e.g. rank insignia, should be subdued (dark/black as opposed to bright colors), camouflage colors on camouflage, battle-dress identical for all ranks, military servants and rank-based luxuries (like saluting) avoided in forward areas, and commands and instruction should be given discreetly. 

Additionally, other acts such as looking at maps, using a radio, _*pointing authoritatively*_, abstaining from menial tasks and other forms of body language can betray an officer's rank. However, it is important to emphasize that if a sniper cannot identify an officer or NCO, he may then select any person that he has a good chance of hitting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-sniper_tactics


----------



## jasonf6 (14 Dec 2011)

Swingline1984 said:
			
		

> "My point" (no, not the one on top of my head) was simply that some may have started teaching the full hand indication vice finger point as it was taught for the last 10 years on pre-deployment training.


Ah, gotcha.


----------



## jasonf6 (14 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> SloMo Bitchslap


 ;D


----------



## Scott (15 Dec 2011)

If you're at CFLRS just point your iPhone at the thud, that should be fine now.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (15 Dec 2011)

Scott said:
			
		

> If you're at CFLRS just point your iPhone at the thud, that should be fine now.



:rofl:


----------



## Maxadia (15 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> At least until she starts the conveyor it it starts going away.



Atta girl.   ;D

So, in order to keep from bein a sniper target, you're supposed to point UNauthoritatively? 

Prob easier for them to simply take out the guys that are obivously making an effort to NOT point with a finger.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Dec 2011)

I'm glad I'm not the only one to see the weirdo 5 finger point.  I think it looks ridiculous and since there isn't an official reason to do it, I won't.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> My wife does some cashier work. Her right hand is on the cash register. She scans the products with her left. There are some customers that absolutely lose their minds when she hands them their change with her left hand. They will drop the change and refuse to pick it up.
> 
> At least until she starts the conveyor and it starts going away.
> 
> ...



That's hilarious. I would love to see that happen, a customer drop the change then see it roll away.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (15 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> .....There are some customers that absolutely lose their minds when she hands them their change with her left hand.....



I'd just wink and say, "_don't worry, I wipe my ass with my right hand, too_".
 >


----------



## Greymatters (16 Dec 2011)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I know in as a hockey ref we're told the same thing.  I checked the standards guide and the answer isn't a very good one.  Its along the lines of; 'When calling a penalty, the referee should use an open hand to indicate the player, not a single finger'.  Amongst the justifications I've heard is that it appears 'too aggressive' and may antangonize the player.  Although that player usually just finished smacking somone upside the head with a stick, so I would say he's pretty antagonized prior to being kicked out.



In regard to sports, the use of the whole hand by a hockey ref is the same as for soccer refs and other sports (i.e. volleyball, tennis, football, etc) - the reason being that it is much easier for spectators and others persons at a distance to see a full open hand than to see a single pointed finger...


----------



## Greymatters (16 Dec 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> My wife does some cashier work. Her right hand is on the cash register. She scans the products with her left. There are some customers that absolutely lose their minds when she hands them their change with her left hand. They will drop the change and refuse to pick it up.
> At least until she starts the conveyor and it starts going away.



On foreign deployments, pointing is a no-no due to potential cultural faux pas, as some have already pointed out.

But back in Canada, I was given to understand that the current emphasis on use of the whole hand rather than a pointed finger is due to a sexcual harassment case in... I think the early 90's?  A senior NCO pointed with a single forefinger at a female soldier's chest area, refering to an improperly buttoned tunic, which the female soldier interpretted as pointing at her breasts, hence the harassment charge.  

Been a while so cant recall exactly when but wasnt this also part of the 'I'm going to touch you now' training for NCO's for use in correcting the behaviour, action or dress of soldiers?


----------

