# Psychology and the Soldier



## HItorMiss (17 Aug 2008)

I have been having this discussion for a fairly long time and there really isn't a definitive answer to it but I thought I would put it out for public consumtion.

What is it that drives Soldiers (Police, Fireman to a lesser extant and you will see later as to why lesser) to what it is we do. How is that people such as us are willing to pay the price we do for such little reward. What I mean by this is we readily without fail sacrifice so very much for an almost ungrateful public. Shunned and cast aside until such time as the boggie man comes knocking and they need us. And then like whipped dogs we come running to deffend the abusive master with voraciousness and then when all is said and done we get smacked on the nose and sent back to the corner like a rabid beast that has done wrong. Perhaps my analogy is flawed but I am sure you can all see where it is I am going. I am well aware of the Wolf/Sheep/Sheepdog analogy and I agree whole hearted with it. But what is it that makes us Sheepdogs. Are we genetic throw backs predisposed to violence (protective not offensive). The simple answer I have heard before is Patriotism, but I ask you how can one love such an esoteric concept as country so so much that they are willing to be maimed or give their life for a flag?. I love Canada but I cannot rightly say  I love the concept of Canada so much as to say it was worth losing personal body parts for.  And yet as boggling as it all is We will do it time after tome generation after generation and the vast "majority" of the public will shun us will pay lip service to' Support the troops" But we will continually march foreward into the unknown danger for those very same people.

Think of the non physical price we pay,  The nightmares, the flashbacks the failed relationships over and over the missed holidays and birthday's of loved ones all again for those that could careless less or abhor us (Perhaps abhor is to strong a word but you get my drift)  Months away, added up over a career into years.... And we do it sometimes even with a shrug and a smile but we do it.


So why? why is it can anyone answer it? I am sure of course there is no one right answer to it all, and each answer will be a very personal thing. Maybe you'll be like me and not have one, no I don't have one I really don't. But there is a common thread to all of us so there must be perhaps a common theme to the answers.

Floors open.


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## aesop081 (17 Aug 2008)

I would like to be able to give you a big explanation of why *I* do this but i cant......

I do it because someone has to and since i'm pretty good at it, it might as well be me.


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## HItorMiss (17 Aug 2008)

CDN

You see what I mean, Might as well be you because you are good at it....Aren't you good at something else some other employable skill? There is no "NEED" for you to do it yet you still do. Therein lies my question.


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## aesop081 (17 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Aren't you good at something else some other employable skill?



Actualy, if i am good at something else, i have not discovered it yet.

I guess i also do it for purely personal reasons. I love flying and i love travelling. The AF provides me with both in spades. I'm sure that deep down i also do it because of the people i wirk with and dont wont to let any of them down ( they are making sacrifices for their own resons as well i'm sure).

What i do know is that i'm not here for the money. While my pay is very, very good, it is not what is keeping me here.


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## whitey (17 Aug 2008)

I'm not sure If I am the correct person to answer this question, as I am not a soldier yet. But I can tell you what fuels my desire to be a soldier.  Patriotism does play a role in it for me to some extent that much is true, but I like to look at the bigger picture.  Many people go there entire lives working a meaningless job, I mean i know somebody has to be the garbage man, somebody has to be the bartender at your local bar and grill. But for me being or in my case becoming a soldier means knowing that you are making a difference in the world. The best part about it is your seeing the changes your making first hand and up close.  Many people go their whole lives wondering if they did something to change the world or change the lives of others. Soldiers don't, they know.


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## aesop081 (17 Aug 2008)

whitey said:
			
		

> Many people go their whole lives wondering if they did something to change the world or change the lives of others. Soldiers don't, they know.



If only it was that simple......but its not.


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## whitey (17 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If only it was that simple......but its not.



I haven't gotten my date for BMQ yet, maybe my expectations are unrealistic then.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Aug 2008)

whitey said:
			
		

> I haven't gotten my date for BMQ yet, maybe my expectations are unrealistic then.



it will be something that you can answer again thought upon completion of your training and when you do your first deployment.


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## blacktriangle (17 Aug 2008)

I've only been in the CF two years but I guess I can add my two cents. I'm not overly patriotic, and I don't personally agree with many aspects of Canadian society. I do this job because I want too, and its what I enjoy and am good at. The army isn't some super moral organization being the only thing holding the world together, but it is a VERY necessary evil. 

I think there are a few types of people in the CF that are simply drawn to it and destined to serve, regardless of the sacrifice and hardships. The actual reason for joining may differ slightly, but they are still cut from the same metal in my opinion. There are also those who like to pretend they are like that, but you can see through them, and they are here for other reasons. 

Like it or not we are at the whims of our political masters to deploy (or not) for whatever reasons they decide, good or bad. We don't get to choose our fights but are expected to perform well regardless. Time away, lost relationships and personal sacrifice are all part of it I guess and probably always will be. Some people (and you know who you are) are meant to do this sort of thing. Sacrifice after sacrifice and and still going forward and wanting to be back in the action even without any true recognition. While supporting the troops is all well and good, most of these individuals who give up everything for the CF will never be understood by joe public, that's just life and they deal with it and keep on going...because it is an intrinsic part of who they are.

As an outsider looking in, that's how I see it.


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## Sig_Des (17 Aug 2008)

I don't think there's any simple answers. And there definitely isn't just one.

I think you have to look at several different things.

You should look first at someones reasons for joining. What attracted them to the military? Why did they choose to commit themselves to armed service? Do they look at it as a career, or as a stepping-stone to another career? There's 17 pages of under this topic here, and the different answers are diverse:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/31273.0.html


Next, you should look at a person's reasons for staying in service. What events have they encountered while they served (and once again, never the same for everyone), and how did it affect them? Were career decisions based on this.

I can think of many reasons as to why, but are they the right answers, or a combination of answers?

*Stability*

I wouldn't say money is any single motivator. Like CDN Aviator said, it's not that great, and a lot of people could to the same thing on civvy street, and make more money. However, the military does offer varying degrees of stability. You know you'll get your paycheck. You know you'll have benefits. You know that there is a set career progression. This could be especially appealing to people who aren't HS Graduates, or just High School Graduates. Even with post-secondary education, it's hard to find the same kind of stability in any profession.

But is this enough for someone to risk life and limb?

*Patriotism*

Surely this is something that touches on most people who join the military. Love of country. But I don't think you'll find many people who have this as a sole reason for joining. And what if suddenly you find yourself not agreeing with things going on in the country, and then having to perform actions that you may not personally agree or believe in. Would you stay? And would you still be willing to risk life and limb for Queen and Country?

*Adventure*

I think this one is a big reason for people to serve. They seek adventure. Excitement. They don't want the 9-5 hustle and bustle of the rat race. They want to do things with High velocity, danger, get the adrenaline going. Many will find some of that, but also be disappointed when they realize how many long periods of boredom or low-intensity accompany said adventure.

And then of course, does this adrenaline high you get when faced with some of the danger of adventure outway self-preservation, or a lot of the BS that comes with the lifestyle?

*Tradition*

Some people join out of a sense of loyalty to family tradition. They've been influenced by members of their family who have joined, or are comfortable with the army lifestyle because they've grown up with it always in the background. They've heard the stories, seen pictures, and what to be part of it. Maybe to bring them closer to other family members, maybe out of a sense of pride.

*Pride*

This in itself could also be a reason. Pride in what you do. Pride in doing and being something that most people can't fathom. Doing things that many are incapable or unwilling to do themselves.

This is such a difficult question, because you can have so many factors that influence you when it comes to military service. Especially once that service changes from peacetime to wartime service. Many people will change their minds. Many get jaded. Many just thrive, no matter what.

What would you do if you got out of the military? A completely different career path, or something along the same lines?

Do you love what you do? And what if you stop loving it?

I know this isn't an answer, but just some thoughts to throw in the mix.


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## HItorMiss (17 Aug 2008)

Some good thoughts to add into the thought process...But not a personal answer.


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## Run away gun (17 Aug 2008)

whitey said:
			
		

> I'm not sure If I am the correct person to answer this question, as I am not a soldier yet. But I can tell you what fuels my desire to be a soldier.  Patriotism does play a role in it for me to some extent that much is true, but I like to look at the bigger picture.  Many people go there entire lives working a meaningless job, I mean i know somebody has to be the garbage man, somebody has to be the bartender at your local bar and grill. But for me being or in my case becoming a soldier means knowing that you are making a difference in the world. The best part about it is your seeing the changes your making first hand and up close.  Many people go their whole lives wondering if they did something to change the world or change the lives of others. Soldiers don't, they know.



A lot of people in the beginning may join up for these reasons, and even continue to serve for these reasons, however eventually, in my experience, there comes a point where you are doing the job for nothing else other than your love of what you do and your duty to your fellow comrades. And there will be points in time, when things are not all roses, that your buddies will be the only thing that drives you on, along with the knowing that it is really what you want to do, that it is your true passion.


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## Greymatters (17 Aug 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> I don't think there's any simple answers. And there definitely isn't just one.



You may join up for one reason, then stay in for another...


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## danchapps (17 Aug 2008)

Part of why I joined was feeling the need to "back up" my brother-in-law. He was overseas and getting shot at all the time. It was sort of a urban gang mentality I had when I thought of it "I want to go over and have his back". That was a small part. Another part came after realizing that the job I had wasn't paying the bills, as well, at the end off the day there was nothing left to show for the work I had done. I was back to a blank stage. In the end, I wanted to do something for people where I could help in a small way, to support those that are doing more than I know I can give. I love doing what I'm doing, I feel as though I'm being productive, and people are getting what they need. I don't think I can pin-point any defining moment that makes me want to do this job. I guess someone has to supply people, why not me? It's not that bad of a job I think.


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## armyvern (17 Aug 2008)

I've still got nothing ...  :-\

Still pondering; perhaps the answer to this is also the answer to that question about eternal youth ... and while I sit here & ponder - they are both escaping me.


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## HItorMiss (17 Aug 2008)

Personally I think everyone is going for the easy answer...I'm good at it...someone has to do it....etc etc

There is more to it then that, there has to be or we are very very sad creatures indeed. I mean I cannot see "I am good at it" and "it's a job" "and it's stable" being sufficient reason to pay the price that we do. Or at the very least I know it doesn't cut it as reasons enough for me.


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## aesop081 (17 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Personally I think everyone is going for the easy answer...I'm good at it...someone has to do it....etc etc
> 
> There is more to it then that, there has to be or we are very very sad creatures indeed. I mean I cannot see "I am good at it" and "it's a job" "and it's stable" being sufficient reason to pay the price that we do. Or at the very least I know it doesn't cut it as reasons enough for me.



I understand that you are looking for something more meaningful. I was born into this. I never once given thought to doing anything else than the military. I was bit by the flying bug well before i knew how to talk. I grew up a military brat. I walked into a CFRC but stroke on coincidence one day on the way to school. It was just meant to be. I didnt chose this life, it chose me.


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## HItorMiss (17 Aug 2008)

Now that is at least an answer I can understand the life chose you. Yeah I am looking for more meaningful but maybe people just aren't willing to exaime it past that answer there. Or maybe really that is the only answer there is.


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## aesop081 (17 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Now that is at least an answer I can understand the life chose you. Yeah I am looking for more meaningful but maybe people just aren't willing to exaime it past that answer there. Or maybe really that is the only answer there is.



I wish i had better for you. Its a question that is well worth examining. I stopped thinking about it when i figured out it was just meant to be and that it is who i am.


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## George Wallace (17 Aug 2008)

This is like an assignment in a Philosophy Crse.  You could have just as easily, started a thread on "What is the meaning of Life?"  You'd probably land up with just as many wide and varied dissertations.  Is there an answer this question, or is a different answer for each individual?


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Aug 2008)

I think the reasons each individual gives should not be treated so lightly. If one person joins for patriotism and another joins for the travel, the most important aspect is that they are in and putting the nation's interests ahead of their own.


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## danchapps (17 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Personally I think everyone is going for the easy answer...I'm good at it...someone has to do it....etc etc
> 
> There is more to it then that, there has to be or we are very very sad creatures indeed. I mean I cannot see "I am good at it" and "it's a job" "and it's stable" being sufficient reason to pay the price that we do. Or at the very least I know it doesn't cut it as reasons enough for me.



I'll admit it, I can be a sad sad individual. I look at it this way, and maybe it will help make my previous reply make a little more sense. I used to work as a lighting tech in theatre. I would spend my days at great heights working. I was risking myself for peoples entertainment in a way. I know that in my previous career I could have been killed any number of ways, electrocution, falling from heights (even though I wore the stupid harness), being crushed. There were many ways for me to go there, I feel that if I'm putting myself on the line, it might as well be for a greater good than a few audience members. At least my work will be of a greater benefit in the army. Hope that clears my post up a bit, however I fear I made it a little more clouded.


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## Lune (18 Aug 2008)

I think the media (war movies, etc.) might've brainwashed me when I was a kid.  :rage:  

No but seriously, I've always gravitated towards tactics and war for as far back as I can remember. I don't know why.


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## Rishi (18 Aug 2008)

It's a bug, it will eat at you until you satisfy it. You all know deep down in your hearts, in the very essence of your being that had you chosen a civvy life...that bug would have eaten away at you. The decision not to go into the forces would be your only regret. 

But what do I know.Only my two cents.


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## HItorMiss (18 Aug 2008)

Lune said:
			
		

> I think the media (war movies, etc.) might've brainwashed me when I was a kid.  :rage:
> 
> No but seriously, I've always gravitated towards tactics and war for as far back as I can remember. I don't know why.





			
				Rishi said:
			
		

> It's a bug, it will eat at you until you satisfy it. You all know deep down in your hearts, in the very essence of your being that had you chosen a civvy life...that bug would have eaten away at you. The decision not to go into the forces would be your only regret.
> 
> But what do I know.Only my two cents.




No so seriously someone willing to put in some effort into an answer or will this thread just fill up with wanna be's and recruits.....


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## aesop081 (18 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> will this thread just fill up with wanna be's and recruits.....



I certainly hope not as it is a valid question. I have stayed in the CF despite some serious frustrations and put up with alot that most people wouldnt ( getting more money than me). If anything BM, you made me take another look at things.

I would venture to say that somedays, it is the people i'm with who keep me in. The sense of pride in shared hardships. The sense of accomplishement in having done things most people cannot imagine......

I dont know but maybe thats the start of an answer.


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## HItorMiss (18 Aug 2008)

Ok so here an answer or a theory behind an answer...No these are not my words I am nowhere near smart enough to come up with this.

The Author will remain nameless until they decide to reveal themselves

"The theory of cognitive dissonance is that people will change their cognitions to match the already conducted actions; this has been tested time again and generally, it's held true.  The reasoning is that we've already done something, and we can't change it, but we have to cope with doing it, so we instead convince ourselves we enjoyed doing it.

The military takes advantage of this all the time.  Some of the most enjoyable courses out there are some of the biggest **** courses.  Expanded to a sociological scale, it's possible that we're incorporating this dissonance into a social facilitative environment -- and that's why we do what we do."


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## aesop081 (18 Aug 2008)

Thats one explanation but ive never been one for that kind of mombojumbo....... ;D


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## Michael OLeary (18 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet,

The reasons people join the military are as varied as the individuals.  Many probably do not even know why they join, because what they believe, or use to convince themselves or others, may not truly align with their underling personal motivations for their decision to enrol.

Worthy references range from Grossman's On Killing and On Combat to Dixon's On the Psychology of Military Incompetence. In some cases, a desire to fit the perceived models of certain stereotypes in such works (both facts and fictional representations of soldiers, sailors and airmen) become the personal motivation to join.

It may seem like a simple question, but there are no simple answers.


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## HItorMiss (18 Aug 2008)

Hmmm I think people are straying a bit, I am not asking why people join...that is though varied a much simpler answer then the one I am asking

What I asked was knowing the pricewe pay (from exposure) why is it we do what we do so willingly.. Of course thats a nutshell paraphrase I was much more eloquent in my original post.


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## aesop081 (18 Aug 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> What I asked was knowing the pricewe pay (from exposure) why is it we do what we do so willingly..



The it begs to question why people stay. If people are willing to pay a high price, what are they getting in return ?


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## HItorMiss (18 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The it begs to question why people stay. If people are willing to pay a high price, what are thet getting in return ?



Distilled to a pure form right there...What do we get in return for such a high cost paid, what is it about us that makes us willing pay that price and get what we get in return. Where as the majoriy of normal people would never even contemplate it.


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## adaminc (18 Aug 2008)

Fortitude, Humility, Empathy, Courage... People in the Military seem to have a stronger disposition to these traits and are the kind of people who put others before themselves, otherwise I doubt they would be risking their lives. 

I would go further as to say as this is some sort of evolutionary response to "Put the good of the herd before yourself" to promote the continuation of your herd/species. In this case, our "herd" or "species" is much much larger, it is Canada, it is our Allies, and in a general sense anyone who needs and wants our help.

I've always wanted to help people live their lives better. Even if its going to be indirectly, by fixing a radio for a SigOp so he can do his job.

As members of the Military, we get the satisfaction that we are making a difference in the world, even if it's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

Just my two cents.


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## time expired (18 Aug 2008)

I think the question of why one joins and why one is willing
to die are two very separate issues.There are as many reasons
why one joined as there are people in the CAF,I, for instance ,was
born in England at the beginning of WW2, all my role models were
in uniform,it follows that I saw my future in the the military.This
did not change with my families emigration to Canada, although
I must admit my decision had little to do with any feeling of
patriotism for Canada,it was more of a desire to experience
military life as my forebearers had.
The decision to put ones life in danger has everthing to do with
the feeling of belonging to something that is bigger and more
important than oneself,the platoon,company or regiment.This
is the thing, that most civilians have difficulty understanding,that
the soldier is willing to bury and even sacrifice his own individuality
for the good of his group,the further we get into the 21 cent.,a very
difficult concept for most people to understand.
To sum it up soldiers are willing to die rather than let their "brothers"
in the next foxhole down.
                                  Regards


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## aesop081 (18 Aug 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> As members of the Military, we get the satisfaction that we are making a difference in the world, even if it's just a tiny piece of the puzzle.



1- We ? I was not aware that you were in the CF already.

2- Satisfaction ? I've done alot of things since i joined and i still dont know if those things made a difference. Only many, many more years will pass before that jury is out.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Aug 2008)

adaminc said:
			
		

> Fortitude, *Humility, Empathy*, Courage... People in the Military seem to have a stronger disposition to these traits and are the kind of people who put others before themselves, otherwise I doubt they would be risking their lives.



Oh yeah, I've seen the days when this forum simply oozed humility and empathy all over the interweb's tubes.


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## muffin (18 Aug 2008)

Interesting BM...  

Having never deployed, and only having spent 4 years as PRes... my thoughts are "outside the box"  - more or less ramblings for thought ... 

This reminds me of another discussion I had once: (looking from the other side...)

How does the suicide bomber bring him/herself to detonate?
How did the Kamikaze Pilot intentionally fly his plane down into enemy ships? 

Could the answer be altruism? A genuine desire to put the needs of others before yourself? 
Is someone who is willing to put themselves in harms way and possibly die in combat just as likely to step in front of a bus to save a child? Is someone who would step in front of a bus to save a child, likely willing to die in combat?  

I have heard a counter theroy to Congnative dissonance based on Reductionism that argues a simpler motivation - incorporating altrusim and it's affect on choices made in the past influencing choices made in the future, such as selfless physical actions being praised, causing chemical reactions that lead to a "warm fuzzy" feeling, leading to a further seeking of praise.  Too me, this sounds too animalistic - too primal. I think it must be more complex than that.

Howard Rachlin of the Psychology Dept of the state university of New York published in the Cambridge University Press:
http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/21/35/bbs00002135-00/bbs.rachlin.html

_ How are patterns of behavior learned and how are they maintained?  Consider the following set of cases.  Four soldiers are ordered to advance on the enemy.  The first and second advance; the third and fourth do not.  Of the two who advance, the first is just obeying orders; he advances because he fears the consequences of disobedience more than he fears the enemy.  The second is not just obeying orders; he advances because he believes it is his patriotic duty to advance.  Of the two who do not advance, the third soldier remains in his foxhole out of fear of the enemy; he weighs the aversive consequences of disobeying orders less than the aversive consequences of advancing.  The fourth soldier does not advance because he believes that the orders are immoral.

            No one, neither the biologist, the cognitivist, the Skinnerian behaviorist, nor the teleological behaviorist, denies that there are important differences between the two soldiers who advance and between the two soldiers who do not advance.  But the biologist and cognitivist alike see all the differences in thought, feeling, moral sentiment of the soldiers, as contemporary with their current behavior.  Behaviorists do not disagree that internal differences exist but their focus is rather on non-contemporary events; the Skinnerian behaviorist is concerned to discover crucial differences in the soldiers’ extrinsic reinforcement histories.  The teleological behaviorist is concerned to discover the patterns of behavior of which each soldiers’ present act forms a part (intrinsic reinforcement). Note, however, that even the concept of extrinsic reinforcement must rely at some point on intrinsic reinforcement.  According to Premack’s theory, for example, eating reinforces lever pressing because eating is (intrinsically) of high value and lever pressing is (intrinsically) of lower value.  I am claiming here that an abstract pattern of behavior may be (intrinsically) of high value while the sum of the values of its particular components are of (intrinsically) lower value.  Value, in either case, would be determined by a choice test.

            Let us first consider extrinsic reinforcement.  By careful selection, with humans, it is possible to reinforce members of a set of particular acts belonging to a wide or abstractly defined class of acts (a rule) so that particular acts that have never been reinforced, but that obey the rule, are performed. That is, humans are able to generalize across instances of complex rules and, with simple rules, nonhumans are also able to do so.  Behavior thus learned is said to be rule-governed.  Imitation (of certain people) and following orders (in certain circumstances) are two such kinds of rules. There is no space here to discuss the several techniques developed for generating rule-governed behavior with extrinsic reinforcement  (see Hayes, 1989, for a collection of articles on the subject), nor to discuss current disputes about whether language precedes complex rule-following or whether rule-following precedes language (Sidman, 1997).

            The behavior of the first soldier, who advances because he fears the consequences of disobeying orders more than he fears the enemy, and that of the third soldier, who fails to advance because he fears the enemy more than the consequences of disobeying orders, may be explained in terms of conflicting rules.  Regardless of the complexity of the relation between the consequences of the present act and those of past acts, it is the weighting of the extrinsic consequences of the present act (the magnitudes, probabilities, and delays of enemy fire versus those of punishment for disobedience) that determines the behavior of these two soldiers.

            Moreover, it may be possible to account for the initial learning of ethical rules and principles, such as those that govern the altruistic behavior of the second and fourth soldiers, in terms of extrinsic social reinforcement at home or school or church. But extrinsic reinforcement cannot account for the maintenance of altruistic behavior.  An altruistic act may never be reinforced.  The second and fourth soldiers (as well as the woman who runs into the burning building to save someone else’s child) are as capable of weighing the immediate consequences of their acts as are the first and third soldiers.  But those consequences are ignored by these two soldiers.  The second and fourth soldiers, both of whose behavior has been brought under the control of highly abstract principles (we are assuming), are surely capable of discriminating between the extrinsic consequences of their present acts and the extrinsic social approval or disapproval of their past behavior at home, school or church where the principles were learned.  A person capable of bringing his or her behavior into conformance with an abstract principle by means of extrinsic reinforcement, and of transferring the application of that rule across situations, could not fail to discriminate the present context (where social approval is dwarfed by the possibility of death) from situations where the rule-governance may have been initially learned.  Yet the altruistic act is performed anyway.

            Such acts must be maintained not by extrinsic reinforcement but by intrinsic reinforcement.  The patterns of those acts (patriotic, ethical, altruistic), perhaps supported during their formation by a scaffold of extrinsic reinforcement, must be highly valuable in themselves.  If they depended on extrinsic reinforcement for maintenance they would not be maintained.

            In Premack’s terms, valuable patterns would be chosen if offered as whole patterns in a free choice situation.  In cases such as the patriotic and ethical soldiers and the woman saving a child, imagine a giant concurrent-chain schedule with years-long terminal link alternatives: heroism versus timidity, reverence for life versus toleration of killing, kindness versus cruelty.  Because of their intrinsic value the chosen patterns are final causes of their component acts and may themselves be effects of still wider final causes: a coherent concept of self; living a happier life, living a better life.

            Most of us would indeed choose to be heros rather than cowards, to revere life rather than to kill, to be kind rather than cruel.  We realize that the former alternatives of each pair are actually patterns of happy lives and the latter, of unhappy lives.  But these alternatives are rarely offered to us as wholes.  Rather, we are faced with a series of particular choices with outcomes of limited temporal extent.  The altruists among us, however, have chosen such more extended patterns as wholes; they are the patterns most of us would choose if we could choose them as wholes.  But to do this we would need to evaluate particular alternatives not by their particular consequences but rather by whether or not they fit into the larger patterns.  This of course is a problem of self-control.

_


Cognitive dissonance ... a sort of self brain washing...  a higher cognative theory, and somewhat of a survival instinct. As I understand it, your mind's attempt to make sense of conflicting beliefs and actions - "developping an aquired taste"

The problem I have with cognative dissonance is that personally, I know that I don't enjoy my job - but won't leave because of the responsability I have to my family to help put a roof over their head, and food on the table. Following the cognative dissonance theroy - by now I should have convinced myself that I love my job completely! If someone were to tell me (true or not) that all other jobs in my field were much worse, and other people envied my position... would I enjoy it more? 

I don't think cognative dissonance could exist without some sort of outside influence - no one is going to do something they don't want to unless someone else says they should, or they must. 
In the case of something like the military would this create "groupthink".
http://choo.fis.utoronto.ca/FIS/Courses/LIS2149/Groupthink.html

You certianly got me thinking BulletMagnet! There are many theories on why you do what you do... but who's to say which one is right, or if there is one answer for all.

muffin


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## Fusaki (18 Aug 2008)

Chicks dig soldiers and I wanna kill terrorists. There's just something about the sex and violence that appeals to me...


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## Wookilar (19 Aug 2008)

Well now....my synapses are burning up pretty good trying to puzzle this out and put it into words...

Why do I put up with it? (the sweats, the lack of sleep some nights, the looks from certain people, etc etc) Why, after 15+ years, do I still do it (especially when I can make a 

Well, I guess, for me, it comes down to a little bit of what a lot of other people have already said.

I still remember the 3 reasons I wrote down in Cornwallis when they asked us why we joined. They've changed slightly, but mostly hold true. 

Patriotism is in there; altruism a bit; also because I am good at what I do; to protect the sheeple; a belief there is "evil" in the world....
I guess the biggest thing it comes down to "Why I still do it?" well..... that has to be because I believe that what I do (what WE ALL do) DOES make a difference, in the grand scheme of things. If I didn't have that, I couldn't do it anymore.

Maybe it'as a bit self-delusional, maybe a bit of brain washing (where's my tinfoil helmet again?  :warstory, but I'm ok with that.

Wook


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