# Jeffrey Deslisle-former RCN, convicted of spying



## Scott

Shared with the usual caveats:



> *Bedford man faces espionage charges*
> 
> January 16, 2012 - 2:05pm BY STEVE BRUCE COURT REPORTER
> 
> A member of the Canadian Armed Forces is in custody on charges of passing secret government information to a foreign entity.
> 
> Jeffrey Paul Delisle, 40, of Bedford was arrested Saturday and charged with a Criminal Code offence of breach of trust by a public officer.
> 
> By the time the Lewis Drive resident appeared before a judge in Halifax provincial court Monday, two new charges under the federal Security of Information Act had been added.
> 
> The Crown was opposed to Delisle's release. He was remanded to the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Dartmouth until Tuesday, when a bail hearing is scheduled.
> 
> According to court documents sworn Monday by an RCMP officer from Montreal, investigators allege that between July 6, 2007, and Jan. 13, 2012, Delisle committed a breach of trust and communicated “to a foreign entity information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard.”
> 
> Those offences are alleged to have been committed in Ottawa, Kingston, Ont., Halifax and Bedford.
> 
> The RCMP officer also alleges that between Jan. 10 and Jan. 13 of this year in Halifax and Bedford, Delisle attempted to communicate secret information to a foreign entity.
> 
> The security act charges carry a maximum penalty of life in prison. The maximum punishment for breach of trust by a public officer is five years.
> 
> (sbruce@herald.ca)



http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/52663-bedford-man-faces-espionage-charges


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## The Bread Guy

It'll be interesting to find out the "foreign power" in question.


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## jollyjacktar

op:  This will get interesting down the road I'll wager.


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## Eye In The Sky




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## Scott

This is the latest update to the article:



> Bedford man faces espionage charges
> 
> January 16, 2012 - 2:05pm BY STEVE BRUCE COURT REPORTER AND EVA HOARE STAFF REPORTER
> 
> A member of the Canadian Armed Forces is in custody on charges of passing secret government information to a foreign entity.
> 
> Jeffrey Paul Delisle, 40, of Bedford was arrested Saturday and charged with a Criminal Code offence of breach of trust. He is reportedly a member of the navy.
> 
> By the time the Lewis Drive resident appeared before a judge in Halifax provincial court Monday, two new charges under the federal Security of Information Act had been added.
> 
> The Crown was opposed to Delisle's release. He was remanded to the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Dartmouth until Tuesday, when a bail hearing is scheduled.
> 
> According to court documents sworn Monday by an RCMP officer from Montreal, investigators allege that between July 6, 2007, and Jan. 13, 2012, Delisle committed a breach of trust and communicated “to a foreign entity information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard.”
> 
> Those offences are alleged to have been committed in Ottawa, Kingston, Ont., Halifax and Bedford.
> 
> The RCMP officer also alleges that between Jan. 10 and Jan. 13 of this year in Halifax and Bedford, Delisle attempted to communicate secret information to a foreign entity.
> 
> The Department of National Defence was mum on the case when contacted Monday, saying all calls were to be directed to the RCMP.
> 
> “They’ve asked us to cede to them,” said a spokesman in Ottawa.
> 
> By early afternoon, the RCMP had yet to respond.
> 
> According to the Security of Information Act which Delisle is alleged to have breached, a “foreign entity” could mean a foreign power, a “group or association of foreign powers,” or “one or more foreign powers and one or more terrorist groups.”
> 
> The Criminal Code also defines foreign entity as a “person acting at the direction of, for the benefit of or in association with a foreign power or a group or association.”
> 
> And a foreign power could be recognized as a state that exercises as a government acting on behalf of a territory outside Canada, regardless of whether “Canada acts as a state or authority” over that entity, the Act states.
> 
> Or, it could even mean a “political faction” operating inside a state, it states.
> 
> The security act charges carry a maximum penalty of life in prison. The maximum punishment for breach of trust by a public officer is five years.
> 
> The act outlays a host of dangers to the country, ranging from everything to damaging property, threatening the safety or “capability” of Canada’s Armed Forces, or involves the theft or interference of designs of structures for the military, including software.
> 
> It also includes threatening diplomatic relations or negotiations, or doing anything that could cause death by toxins, explosions, radiation or radioactivity, the act says.
> 
> According to property records, Delisle reportedly lives in a home appraised at $240,000, with a mortgage owned by a woman, not himself. Calls to the Lewis Drive residence were not answered Monday.
> 
> The first mortgage was taken out in 2005 and lists a bank in Ontario, while the second mortgage is listed as having been recorded at a bank in Lower Sackville, property records state.
> 
> (sbruce@herald.ca)
> 
> (ehoare@herald.ca)



Same link.


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## TN2IC

Disgusting.. that is all I can or shall say.

Regards,
TN


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## armyvern

Fuck. My mom just called me to see if I heard about his arrest yet. I am in shock.


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## dogger1936

If found guilty I'll be very interested in the punishment and where he will serve said punishment.

Up to Life for espionage; this will be interesting.


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## Journeyman

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> If found guilty I'll be very interested in the punishment and where he will serve said punishment.
> 
> Up to Life for espionage; this will be interesting.


According to the current Globe & Mail version, the RCMP is saying that the SLt Int O's actions resulted in "no evidence of a threat to Canada -- no threat to public safety," at this time.

While his actions may be despicable, I doubt if he'll serve anywhere near a life sentence.


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## Retired AF Guy

This is going to get very interesting, to say the least! Especially the fact that he was an intelligence officer. It will also be interesting to see if there will be a publication ban on the allegations.

Two comments; as always, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and that the SIA is pretty all encompassing and just about anyone could be caught up in it.


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## jollyjacktar

Possibly not too much Int in this O.


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## tabernac

Edit: That info doesn't belong here.


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## kstart

From CBC:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/01/16/ns-security-charges-halifax.html?cmp=rss

Link: Provincial Court Document
http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/78445103

. . . charged with S.122 of the _Criminal Code of Canada_. . .
and S. 16 (1) of the _Security of Information Act_

(Link to Legislation: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/O-5/page-8.html)

I am curious as well as to the definitions of "foreign entity or terrorist group", since there is room within the act for fluctuating definitions. . . and whether we will know that specifically or would it be protected by the Privacy Acts, and other less-tested legislation. . .?

Could it be serious, vs. the case of a senior member within the Government of Canada and the journalist from China, no charges were pursued despite potential appearance of potential conflicts of interests (re: economic intel or whatever).  Are the standards similar for military personelle as they are for higher ups within our civilian government?  Curious to know what are the boundaries aside from the more obvious ones?  Where does one go to get current definitions of "foreign enitity or terrorist group"?  The Patriot Act stateside, had "Food not Bombs" at one time listed as a "terrorist group" (I recall, I'd need to search for that article to confirm).


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## jollyjacktar

Reading this I could not help but have "The Game of Thrones" theme music come unbidden to my head.


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## Eye In The Sky

He worked at Trinity.  When the story broke, it hadn't id'd his rank or unit, but we went to the GAL and figured it out PDQ.  It was only a matter of time before they got his rank/unit, which CBC now has.

Interesting conversations in the Wardroom tonight no doubt.


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## Retired AF Guy

According to the SIA here is the definition of a "foreign entity:"



> “foreign entity” means
> 
> (a) a foreign power,
> 
> (b) a group or association of foreign powers, or of one or more foreign powers and one or more terrorist groups, or
> 
> (c) a person acting at the direction of, for the benefit of or in association with a foreign power or a group or association referred to in paragraph (b);
> 
> “foreign power”
> 
> “foreign power” means
> 
> (a) the government of a foreign state,
> 
> (b) an entity exercising or purporting to exercise the functions of a government in relation to a territory outside Canada regardless of whether Canada recognizes the territory as a state or the authority of that entity over the territory, or
> 
> (c) a political faction or party operating within a foreign state whose stated purpose is to assume the role of government of a foreign state;
> 
> “foreign state”
> 
> “foreign state” means
> 
> (a) a state other than Canada,
> 
> (b) a province, state or other political subdivision of a state other than Canada, or
> 
> (c) a colony, dependency, possession, protectorate, condominium, trust territory or any territory falling under the jurisdiction of a state other than Canada;



The Section 83, of the Criminal Code of Canada defines a  terrorist activity and terrorist group.


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## cupper

So I guess the Criminal Code definition of Foreign Power rules out a Wiki-Leaks situation then.


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## Snakedoc

wow...he was apparently a reservist before transferring reg too.  The Navy Int community is not that big, I'm sure I'll be hearing about this in the wardroom too..


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## Fishbone Jones

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> wow...he was apparently a reservist before transferring reg too.  The Navy Int community is not that big, I'm sure I'll be hearing about this in the wardroom..





			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> He worked at Trinity.  When the story broke, it hadn't id'd his rank or unit, but we went to the GAL and figured it out PDQ.  It was only a matter of time before they got his rank/unit, which CBC now has.
> 
> Interesting conversations in the Wardroom tonight no doubt.



........and what happens in the Mess, stays in the Mess.

Everyone remember. He has his day in court to be tried, and has the right to do that unencumbered without personal tidbits or second hand info and rumour mucking it up.

We won't be trying him here in a court of public opinion, heresay or barrack room justice.

There will be plenty of time to discuss things after the judge renders his decision. Let's all remember that.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> Everyone remember. *He has his day in court to be tried, and has the right to do that unencumbered without personal tidbits or second hand info and rumour mucking it up.
> 
> We won't be trying him here in a court of public opinion, heresay or barrack room justice.*
> 
> There will be plenty of time to discuss things after the judge renders his decision. Let's all remember that.
> 
> Milnet.ca Staff


 :goodpost:

A statement from the RCMP's Commissioner on the arrest:


> The RCMP has charged a Canadian Forces employee in Halifax, Nova Scotia with offences under the Criminal Code and the Security of Information Act - including breach of trust and communicating safeguarded information to a foreign entity without lawful authority.
> 
> This is the first time that an individual has been charged under section 16. (1)  of the Security of Information Act.
> 
> As this case is before the Court and because this investigation is ongoing, there is little detail that the RCMP can disclose at this time and it will not provide further comment on it.
> 
> Notwithstanding the seriousness of these charges, the RCMP is not aware of any threat to public safety at this time from this situation
> 
> This investigation demonstrates that Canada is not immune to threats posed by foreign entities wishing to undermine Canadian sovereignty.
> 
> We must be ever vigilant to the real threat of foreign espionage, and continue investing time and resources into the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of such acts.
> 
> The RCMP has received excellent collaboration from its domestic law enforcement, security and defence partners, specifically the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canadian Forces and the Canada Border Services Agency.
> 
> Through their dedication and commitment, the men and women of the RCMP who worked diligently on this investigation, have made a difference in the safety and security of Canadians and the protection of our nation's sovereignty.
> 
> Bob Paulson



Statements from the CF as of this post?
 :crickets:


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## Retired AF Guy

cupper said:
			
		

> So I guess the Criminal Code definition of Foreign Power rules out a Wiki-Leaks situation then.



The definition I posted was from the  Security Information Act, not the CCC; sorry for the confusion. However, you have a good point, if it was a wiki-leaks scenario, then he would have been charged under a different section of the SIA (Section 4, I think??).


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## Strike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Statements from the CF as of this post?
> :crickets:



In a case where the CF is not the lead it will usually take a couple of days to put out a statement that contains more than stating that media should talk to the lead agency.


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## Snakedoc

recceguy said:
			
		

> ........and what happens in the Mess, stays in the Mess.
> 
> Everyone remember. He has his day in court to be tried, and has the right to do that unencumbered without personal tidbits or second hand info and rumour mucking it up.
> 
> We won't be trying him here in a court of public opinion, heresay or barrack room justice.
> 
> There will be plenty of time to discuss things after the judge renders his decision. Let's all remember that.
> 
> Milnet.ca Staff



Oh agreed wholeheartedly


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## Nemo888

The story I read suggests he sent his information electonically. Didn't he learn anything in INT  school? I suspect it is just some reporters embellishment.


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## Eye In The Sky

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Oh agreed wholeheartedly



And I'll second that.  For the record, I didn't post the mbr's rank/unit prior to it be being released.  You won't see any "what if's" from me.


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## Fishbone Jones

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And I'll second that.  For the record, I didn't post the mbr's rank/unit prior to it be being released.  You won't see any "what if's" from me.





			
				Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Oh agreed wholeheartedly



None of it was personal or pointed at any individual. 

Simply restating our usual caveat(s).


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## Boxkicker

Well is this not a sticky wicket, yes this person will get his day in court and if guilty there can only be one penalty and unfortunately it is not death. Charges must be treason we cannot have anything less. Dismissal with disgrace and life, an example must be set. The spy masters must be exposed the media reported the Russians if so expel them all.


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## Journeyman

*WTF??*


			
				Boxkicker said:
			
		

> Well is this not a sticky wicket, yes this person will get his day in court and if guilty there can only be one penalty and unfortunately it is not death. Charges must be treason we cannot have anything less. Dismissal with disgrace and life, an example must be set. The spy masters must be exposed the media reported the Russians  if so expel them all.


I'm sorry. Did you not read those word thingees associated with this story? He has been charged under the provisions of the "Security of Information Act," not "Treason." There are specific conditions associated with that charge; he obviously does not fit.


As for your belief that it's "the Russians" -- the hypotheses of a civie academic (notwithstanding somewhat respected in this area), given as the story is breaking, to a media that lives for 10-second sound-bytes, is not quite enough for me to launch Tom Clancy into the breach.
Article


> As for the recipients of the information, Wark said the Chinese would be the “obvious suspects  . . . . They do a lot of foreign information collection.”
> 
> But he also wouldn’t rule out the Russians or even a Middle East country as the recipients of the alleged information sharing.


What he said there was, "I don't know."

Sorry you missed the Cold War.


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## jollyjacktar

On the radio on the way in this morning they said that secrets were allegedly being "sold".  There will be all sorts of intrigue, mystery, drama and possibly Machiavellian turns as this plays out.  Regardless of how it finishes, this man's career is not going to do well from this.


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## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> As for your belief that it's "the Russians" -- the hypotheses of a civie academic (notwithstanding somewhat respected in this area), given as the story is breaking, to a media that lives for 10-second sound-bytes, is not quite enough for me to launch Tom Clancy into the breach ....


How about the unnamed sources of a breathless-sounding CTV.ca reporter, then?   ;D


> An intelligence officer with the Canadian military has been arrested for allegedly sharing classified information with Russia, CTV News has learned .... Sources told CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife that the foreign entity in question is Russia, and that Delisle was allegedly caught in the act last week .... "Sources say that Russian espionage in this country is as extensive and aggressive as it was during the Cold War," Fife reported ....


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## jollyjacktar

In my old trade one of my partners had come back to patrols from CFNCIU in Ottawa.  He said that everyone has the impression that when the wall came down, espionage stopped as the cold war was finished.  He said that things actually got worse and there was more activity not less.  This turn of events comes as no surprise to me.


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## Richard.Donafeld

Not really suprising at all the it may have been Russians buying this information. Neverthless let the suby burn, this will continue to be an interesting subject as it unfolds.


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## Sub_Guy

What was this guy's job prior to becoming an INT O in 2008? 

Now I know how the Russians took it to us at the WJC, this guy gave up our goods.


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## dogger1936

Russia.....

An intelligence officer with the Canadian military has been arrested for allegedly sharing classified information with Russia, CTV News has learned.

Jeffrey Paul Delisle, 40, was in courtroom in Halifax on Monday facing two charges that fall under the Security of Information Act.

It's alleged that Delisle had been illegally passing on secret information to a foreign entity since July of 2007.

Sources told CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife that the foreign entity in question is Russia, and that Delisle was allegedly caught in the act last week.

The arrest and the allegations lend some credence to recent reports that Canada is increasingly becoming a target of espionage.

"Sources say that Russian espionage in this country is as extensive and aggressive as it was during the Cold War," Fife reported.

While the exact nature of the documents in question remains a closely-guarded secret among security officials, sources said that the information could deal with ship movements and data about Canada's allies, Fife said.

None of the allegations against Delisle have been proven in court.

He was an intelligence officer and a navy sub-lieutenant, the Defence Department said. He had been working out of CFB Stadacona's Trinity section, which is a naval communications and intelligence operational centre in Halifax. It's believed that the base is a multi-national one, meaning officers have access to secret data from other NATO countries.

The military is conducting a probe to find out the extent of the leaks.

"Notwithstanding the seriousness of these charges, the RCMP is not aware of any threat to public safety at this time from this situation," RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson told The Canadian Press.

"This investigation demonstrates that Canada is not immune to threats posed by foreign entities wishing to undermine Canadian sovereignty.

"We must be ever vigilant to the real threat of foreign espionage, and continue investing time and resources into the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of such acts."

Sources told CTV News that due to the sensitivity of the case, legal proceedings could be subject to a sweeping publication ban. It's also believed that a plea deal could be offered, meaning that none of the particulars of the case would be replayed in open court.

A breach of trust charge has also been filed, and that the alleged offences occurred in or near Halifax, Ottawa and Kingston, Ont.

According to the Security of Information Act, anyone convicted of the Act's most serious offences can be subject to life in prison.

Delisle came to the navy as reservist in 1996 and became a member in 2001. He was promoted to the rank of office in 2008.

Delisle will remains in police custody and will appear in court on Tuesday.

CSIS Director Richard Fadden noted in lengthy 2010 memo that Canada should be concerned about foreign interference.

"Canada is a target for foreign interference due to our natural resources, scientific and technological sectors, our role and influence in the international community, and our close relations with powerful allies," said the memo, which was written to the Public Safety ministry.



Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120116/canadian-forces-military-security-leak-information-foreign-entity-120116/#ixzz1jjKQ8qoV


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## Scott

And even in light of this we're going to keep speculation to a minimum. The media are here and they are looking at this thread. 

And to the members of the media: we won't tolerate any PMing on the sly to our membership to try and mine them for source material. Normally we have a decent and respectful relationship but we have had one or two who have really tested our patience. Please do not find yourself in the latter.

Staff


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## armyvern

Reproduced under the fairdealings provision of the copyright act ...

Charged with espionage, naval officer seeks delay in bail hearing



> A navy intelligence officer accused of spying stayed in the cells Tuesday morning, his appearance in a civilian court in Halifax put over until next week. Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Paul Delisle was to have a bail hearing but his lawyer asked that it be rescheduled. The suspect opted not to appear in court.
> 
> “He doesn't want to come up,” defence lawyer Cameron MacKeen told the judge, seeking a delay.
> 
> Mr. MacKeen suggested setting aside three-quarters of a day for the hearing, which could be an indication of the complexity of the case, and Madam Justice Barbara Beach of Nova Scotia Provincial Court agreed to reserve all of Wednesday, Jan. 25.
> 
> The 40-year-old naval officer, whose unit is a nerve centre for information that is collected and then shared among allies including the United States, has been charged with breach of trust and passing on restricted information.
> 
> He is accused of passing government secrets to foreign interests over the span of four and a half years – working with the Russian, according to CTV – a case that threatens this country’s reputation among its closest allies.
> 
> The charge is the first ever laid under Canada’s rarely used Security of Information Act, passed after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The offence carries a maximum penalty of life in prison.
> 
> Sources say that SLT. Delisle, 40, joined the reserves in 1996 and the regular forces in 2001. He worked in Halifax until 2005 and then transferred to the Chief of Defence Intelligence group in Ottawa in 2006. He spent 2007 at the Strategic Joint Staff offices, also in Ottawa, and then 2008 at the Royal Military College in Kingston. He later moved to the Canadian Forces Joint Headquarters, also in Kingston, before returning to Halifax in 2010.
> 
> Last Friday afternoon his career exploded as investigators descended on the home in a Halifax suburb he shared with his partner and three children. Neighbours said that authorities arrived in unmarked cars and spent hours photographing and searching the house. They carried out boxes and bags.
> 
> On Tuesday, SLt. Delisle, who has been in custody since the weekend, was to appear in Halifax provincial court for a bail hearing. The proceeding attracted a horde of media but not the suspect .
> 
> Mr. MacKeen told reporters on the way out that he asked for the delay because he had received disclosure just that morning. He would not say how his client would plead nor the extent of the disclosure package.
> 
> “All I can say is, one thing that I’ll... it’s the only comment I’m going to say, is people have to realize there’s a presumption of innocence in this country and that’s something that we’ll be looking at going forward,” he said.
> 
> Peter Chisholm, chief federal prosecutor in the Atlantic office of the Public Prosecution Service, was even more tightlipped. He explained to reporters the matter had been put over and then walked silently through a flurry of questions. He declined to answer whether the alleged behaviour of SLT. Delisle was tantamount to treason and hesitated before offering even his name.
> 
> As recently as last week, RCMP allege, the sailor tried to leak confidential government information. In court documents, the force alleges that, between Jan. 10 and Jan. 13, SLt. Delisle attempted “to communicate with a foreign entity information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard.”
> 
> The RCMP further allege that the alleged espionage took place over a 4½-year period, beginning on July 6, 2007 and including locations “at or near” Ottawa, Kingston, Halifax, Bedford “and elsewhere.”
> 
> The RCMP said the alleged offences have not placed Canada in danger.
> ...



More at link.


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## Eye In The Sky

CBC updated story

Navy officer accused of spying forgoes bail bid

Jeffrey Paul Delisle of Halifax area in custody until Jan. 25 court appearance.

A Canadian navy intelligence officer charged with communicating information to a foreign entity or terrorist group has agreed to stay in custody for now and not make a bail application, his lawyer says.

Jeffrey Paul Delisle was arrested in the Halifax area over the weekend and had been due to appear in court for a bail hearing Tuesday morning. His next court date is scheduled for Jan. 25.


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## Boxkicker

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *WTF??*I'm sorry. Did you not read those word thingees associated with this story? He has been charged under the provisions of the "Security of Information Act," not "Treason." There are specific conditions associated with that charge; he obviously does not fit.



  Let me clarify the charges should be treason!! He swore an oath of duty and honour he broke that oath. As someone in his postion he would have had access to highly sensitive material. 

 As well I did read and I know what he was charged with espionage against his own, to me know matter how someone else looks at it is treason.

 ON a different note I do remember when Chretien had the death penalty removed from the NDA, and when we used to train for the big bad Russians.

_Edited by staff to correct quote box._


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## The Bread Guy

For those wanting to discuss "treason vs. unauthorized release of information", here's how the Criminal Code of Canada defines "treason"....


> High treason
> 
> 46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
> 
> (b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
> 
> (c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
> 
> Treason
> 
> (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
> 
> (b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
> 
> (c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
> 
> (d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
> 
> (e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act ....


As others have said, the RCMP laid the charges they did for a reason, and the reason(s) will become clear as the court process unfolds.


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## ltmaverick25

A quick note for situational awareness...

Not all cases like this are a result of a desire for personal gain.  It could have been an act of duress.

If you should ever find yourself compromised by a foreign entity, which is to say, they are threatening to blackmail you, harm you in any way, show pictures to your wife ect... contact your local NCIU rep immediately.  They WILL help you, not burn you.  

These foreign entities are constantly laying traps to compromise people and force them to cooperate.  Dont! Follow the steps above for gods sake.

If you are compromised you are guilty of being an idiot with poor judgement, if you comply to demands you are guilty of being a traitor.  Please never chose the latter.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Boxkicker said:
			
		

> Let me clarify the charges should be treason!! He swore an oath of duty and honour he broke that oath. As someone in his postion he would have had access to highly sensitive material.
> 
> As well I did read and I know what he was charged with espionage against his own, to me know matter how someone else looks at it is treason.
> 
> ON a different note I do remember when Chretien had the death penalty removed from the NDA, and when we used to train for the big bad Russians.





As was stated by recceguy wait to this individual has his day in Court before spouting off about treason etc. This is your last warning.



_Edited to correct quote box_


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## OldSolduer

This should prove to be very interesting. And it could have been ANY country - or group - that was _*allegedly*_ buying info from the accused.

We may never know the true details though.


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## Tow Tripod

Does this mean he is right side justified on his next PER for leading change??
Do the crime do the time but when the lawyers get involved this case will take a very long time.


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## Fishbone Jones

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Does this mean he is right side justified on his next PER for leading change??
> Do the crime do the time but when the lawyers get involved this case will take a very long time.



By not taking bail, he's banking up time for a 'two for one' at sentencing. Not saying that's his plan, just an observation.


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## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> By not taking bail, he's banking up time for a 'two for one' at sentencing. Not saying that's his plan, just an observation.



That's gone out the window recently.  He's SOL in that respect I believe.


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## PMedMoe

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That's gone out the window recently.



Indeed it has.  It's now capped at 1 to 1.  1.5 to 1 if circumstances justify, but I bet that's pretty rare.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-nouv/nr-cp/2010/doc_32485.html


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## Sig_Des

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> This should prove to be very interesting. And it could have been ANY country - or group - that was _*allegedly*_ buying info from the accused.
> 
> We may never know the true details though.



Interesting indeed. Regardless of guilt or innocence, I'm pretty sure that this is the first instance of prosecution of espionage in Canada. If anything, it should be a wake-up as to foreign interest and activities in this country


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## ltmaverick25

Its definitly not the first.

The first took place shortly after the 2nd world war.  Russia was caught conducting massive espionage ops in Canada although the King govt at the time tried very very hard to ignore it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Let's also remember, the likes of "Wikileaks" could also be considered a foreign entity.  There are many other organization chomping at the bit to be the new information source, with a lot more to offer than some nations.

dileas

tess


----------



## riggermade

So just listening to CBC Ottawa and they refer to him as a "high level Navy officer"...typical CBC reporting


----------



## jollyjacktar

riggermade said:
			
		

> So just listening to CBC Ottawa and they refer to him as a "high level Navy officer"...typical CBC reporting



I heard Scott Taylor  on News Talk Radio 95.7 FM describe, Sub Lieutenant, as the lowest commissioned rank in the Navy.  But of course we all know the depths of his knowledge... :rofl:


----------



## Jarnhamar

If there are any gorgeous FEMALE Russian spies with a backpack full of money I am a very high ranking Navy official and my PM function is turned on.

I can tell you about our fleet of Submarines, our destroys and cruisers and their bigger cousins our frigates.


----------



## GAP

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> If there are any gorgeous FEMALE Russian spies with a backpack full of money I am a very high ranking Navy official and my PM function is turned on.
> 
> I can tell you about our fleet of Submarines, our destroys and cruisers and their bigger cousins our frigates.



This is all pillow talk....correct?  :nod:


----------



## cupper

recceguy said:
			
		

> By not taking bail, he's banking up time for a 'two for one' at sentencing. Not saying that's his plan, just an observation.



There is another possibility, that he (or others) may be thinking that being held in custody may be safer than being out where persons of ill intent may attempt to bring harm to him.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oh, you mean the packs of reporters who would be baying for blood I mean a story.


----------



## cupper

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Oh, you mean the packs of reporters who would be baying for blood I mean a story.



Actually, I was thinking about misguided persons who felt they needed to exact their own form of justice.

Or unnamed co-conspirators who may wish to send a message to STFU.

But, then again, keeping the press at bay would also be a big side benefit.


----------



## jollyjacktar

cupper said:
			
		

> Actually, I was thinking about misguided persons who felt they needed to exact their own form of justice.


Yes, yes.  That's who I meant, "The Press Corps",  CBC in particular.   ;D


----------



## Retired AF Guy

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Let's also remember, the likes of "Wikileaks" could also be considered a foreign entity.  There are many other organization chomping at the bit to be the new information source, with a lot more to offer than some nations.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Actually, I don't think so. Its kind of convoluted but according to the  Security of Information Act, a foreign entity is defined as a _"foreign power/group or an association of foreign powers_ or _a person acting at the direction .... of a foreign power_;" a foreign power in turn means "_a government of a foreign state/ an entity exercising or purporting act in the behalf of a foreign state_" or "_a political faction or party operating within a foreign state ...._;" a foreign state in turn is defined as "_a state other than Canada/ a province, state or other political subdivision_" or "_a colony, dependency, possession, protectorate, etc falling under the jurisdiction of a state other than Canada_."  

In other words, a foreign entity is a political organization (eg country) or some group acting in the behalf of of a foreign government (eg spy agency). 

Nothing to it ... clear as mud.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't think so. Its kind of convoluted but according to the  Security of Information Act, a foreign entity is defined as a _"foreign power/group or an association of foreign powers_ or _a person acting at the direction .... of a foreign power_;" a foreign power in turn means "_a government of a foreign state/ an entity exercising or purporting act in the behalf of a foreign state_" or "_a political faction or party operating within a foreign state ...._;" a foreign state in turn is defined as "_a state other than Canada/ a province, state or other political subdivision_" or "_a colony, dependency, possession, protectorate, etc falling under the jurisdiction of a state other than Canada_."
> 
> In other words, a foreign entity is a political organization (eg country) or some group acting in the behalf of of a foreign government (eg spy agency).
> 
> Nothing to it ... clear as mud.



Ahh roger that.

I was thinking it can also be the same as US's Pte Bradley Manning's case.

dileas

tess


----------



## cupper

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Ahh roger that.
> 
> I was thinking it can also be the same as US's Pte Bradley Manning's case.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



So he's a gay member protesting the Harper Administration's lack of movement on DADT? ;D


----------



## Jimmy_D

but what about:

(b) a group or association of foreign powers, or of one or more foreign powers and one or more terrorist groups, or

(c) a person acting at the direction of, for the benefit of or in association with a foreign power or a group or association referred to in paragraph (b);





'Cause technically, it is a person or persons, which may not be at the direction of, but any enity can see that site. So therefore it makes it a benefit to anyone. Does it not?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> If there are any gorgeous FEMALE Russian spies with a backpack full of money I am a very high ranking Navy official and my PM function *is turned on*.


Among other things, right?


----------



## Edward Campbell

More on this, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/intelligence-officer-facing-espionage-charge-had-top-level-clearance/article2305116/


> Intelligence officer facing espionage charge had top-level clearance
> 
> STEVEN CHASE  AND OLIVER MOORE
> 
> OTTAWA AND HALIFAX— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
> Last updated Wednesday, Jan. 18, 2012
> 
> The man at the centre of an alleged espionage scandal worked in a military communications nerve centre where sources say Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Paul Delisle would have had top-level clearance to peruse Canada’s defence secrets.
> 
> Sources say SLt. Delisle’s most recent posting, the ultra-secure HMCS Trinity communications centre in Halifax, is surrounded by barbed wire and protected by an electronic shield that blocks unauthorized transmissions.
> 
> On Tuesday, the naval intelligence officer accused of spying had his bail hearing in a Halifax court delayed until next week at the request of his lawyer, who wanted more time to prepare. SLt. Delisle opted not to appear in court. “He doesn’t want to come up,” defence lawyer Cameron MacKeen told the judge, referring to the jail cells used by prisoners due in court.
> 
> What may be the biggest spy scandal in Canada in more than half a century exploded Monday after SLt. Delisle was charged with passing secrets to a “foreign entity” under Canada’s Information Security Act. It’s the first charge of its kind ever laid and one where the maximum penalty is the toughest possible under this country’s justice system: life in prison.
> 
> Details are slowly emerging about the Canadian Forces officer, despite a curtain of silence that’s been lowered by tight-lipped authorities, including the fact he declared bankruptcy in 1998.
> 
> The RCMP, Canadian military and the government refused to discuss the case but Defence Minister Peter MacKay took pains to insist the espionage allegations had not hurt the country’s relations with its foreign partners. “Let me assure you that our allies have full confidence in Canada.”
> 
> Sources say the Trinity communications centre was also privy to intelligence from Canada’s allies including the United States, Britain and Australia.
> 
> Officials at the U.S. and British embassies in Canada were not available for comment Tuesday.
> 
> Mr. MacKay on Tuesday refused to identify which country SLt. Delisle is alleged to have been spying for. “I’m not denying or confirming anything,” he said when asked to comment on news reports saying the recipient of the secrets was Russia.
> 
> “I am not going to play Clue,” he said.
> 
> A woman at Russia’s embassy in Ottawa said the embassy had no comment at this time on the Delisle story.
> 
> Sources said the Canadian government is currently conducting a damage assessment to discern how much national security has been compromised.
> 
> CTV reported Tuesday night that Canada is preparing a “measured response” to Russia that could include either summoning the Russian ambassador or expelling Russian diplomats.
> 
> However, the network said, the Harper government is leery of poisoning relations with Moscow and causing a public spat because the Prime Minister is headed to Russia later this year for a APEC summit.
> 
> Little is known about SLt. Delisle, 40, other than he most recently resided in Bedford, N.S., a suburb of Halifax, with a woman and three children.
> 
> His myspace.com page lists him as single as of 2008 and filings show a man with the same name and date of birth as the espionage suspect declared bankruptcy in Nova Scotia in February 1998 – less than two years after Jeffrey Delisle joined the Canadian Forces reserves.
> 
> It was barely a month before his 27th birthday, according to the record of the proceeding, and he owed $18,587 while declaring assets of $1,000.
> 
> He received a discharge from bankruptcy in November of 1998, filings show. The address given during the proceeding is currently assigned to a lower-level apartment at the back of a small house in Beaver Bank, a different suburb of Halifax.
> 
> Michael Hennessy, a professor of history and war studies at Royal Military College in Kingston, said the case is really unmatched in Canadian history – if the charges are proven. “For an officer and intelligence officer in particular to be involved in such behaviour is a massive betrayal of trust. It really is unprecedented.”
> 
> SLt. Delisle originally joined the Forces as a reservist in 1996 and later became an officer in 2008 after completing a bachelor of arts at Royal Military College.




I have no opinions re: SLt Delisle's guilt or innocence, a judge and jury will decide that, nor the nature of the charges preferred against him, I'm not a lawyer.

I am a bit dismayed by the somewhat "breathless" reporting; consider the first two paragraphs:

1. As those of you who hold security clearances know, no one, not even the CDS and MND are free _"to peruse Canada’s defence secrets."_ DND's systems of information management and control ensure that information is compartmentalized and is "perused" on an often very, very strict "need to know" basis; and

2. It is normal for communications facilities to be _"surrounded by barbed wire and protected by an electronic shield that blocks unauthorized transmissions."_ The wire is absent if the communications facility is, as is often the case, housed within a secure area - like a HQ building. The "electronic shield," often called a _Faraday cage_ is a common thing - there are many inside some buildings - used to both protect information and prevent harmful radiation/interference.

It is hard enough for Canadians to comprehend what has happened without the unnecessary, uninformed _sensationalism_.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Another topic altogether, but how, and why, would you declare bankruptcy at $18,000?
That's barely a decent car.............


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Here is a  video of an interview  between David Atkin (Sun News TV) and  Christian Leuprecht, a professor at the Department of Political Science and Economics at RMC and the School of Policy Studies at Queen's University. 

Edit: Added proper identification.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Here is a  video of an interview  between Brian Lilley (Sun News TV) and  Christian Leuprecht, a professor at the Department of Political Science and Economics at RMC and the School of Policy Studies at Queen's University.




Nitpicking, to be sure, but, that looked a lot like David Akin (an Army.ca member) to me.






David Akin


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Jimmy_D said:
			
		

> but what about:
> 
> (b) a group or association of foreign powers, or of one or more foreign powers and one or more terrorist groups, or
> 
> (c) a person acting at the direction of, for the benefit of or in association with a foreign power or a group or association referred to in paragraph (b);
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cause technically, it is a person or persons, which may not be at the direction of, but any enity can see that site. So therefore it makes it a benefit to anyone. Does it not?



The original start of this discussion was whether this might a "Wiki-leaks" type of thing. Remember that Julian Assange, the man behind Wiki-leaks was acting on his own, not at the behest of any government. That's why SLt. Delisle was charged under  Sections 16(1) and (2), and Section 17, of the Security Information Act. If it had been a wiki-leaks scenario, then he would have been charged under a different section of the SIA, probably Section 4.(1)(a). 

Just my two cents.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Nitpicking, to be sure, but, that looked a lot like David Akin (an Army.ca member) to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David Akin



You're exactly right, it is Mr Akin, my apologies to Mr. Akin.


----------



## Jarnhamar

GAP said:
			
		

> This is all pillow talk....correct?  :nod:



ha!

Does Canada have any spies over in Russia?


----------



## ltmaverick25

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> More on this, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/intelligence-officer-facing-espionage-charge-had-top-level-clearance/article2305116/
> 
> I have no opinions re: SLt Delisle's guilt or innocence, a judge and jury will decide that, nor the nature of the charges preferred against him, I'm not a lawyer.
> 
> I am a bit dismayed by the somewhat "breathless" reporting; consider the first two paragraphs:
> 
> 1. As those of you who hold security clearances know, no one, not even the CDS and MND are free _"to peruse Canada’s defence secrets."_ DND's systems of information management and control ensure that information is compartmentalized and is "perused" on an often very, very strict "need to know" basis; and
> 
> 2. It is normal for communications facilities to be _"surrounded by barbed wire and protected by an electronic shield that blocks unauthorized transmissions."_ The wire is absent if the communications facility is, as is often the case, housed within a secure area - like a HQ building. The "electronic shield," often called a _Faraday cage_ is a common thing - there are many inside some buildings - used to both protect information and prevent harmful radiation/interference.
> 
> It is hard enough for Canadians to comprehend what has happened without the unnecessary, uninformed _sensationalism_.



Unfortunately, if this member had an SA clearance, he would indeed be free to peruse alot of information.  This very act of course would be in contravention to the "need to know" regulation, but there would be nothing stopping the member from doing this.

However, based on what I have read, I beleive this to be unlikely.  It would appear that he was serving as an Intelligence Watch Officer (IWO).  As part of that job he would have had access to level 2 information.  In order to view higher levels he would have had to spend alot of time in a different area.  Allowing something like this to happen would be a gross act of negligence by many others.  Again very unlikely.


----------



## Edward Campbell

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, if this member had an SA clearance, he would indeed be free to peruse alot of information ...




Then I guess things have changed a great deal since I retired, because that was certainly not the case a few years ago. Each file, physical or electronic, had control of access rules and access registers so that supervisory and security personnel could see who was working on what.


----------



## dapaterson

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Then I guess things have changed a great deal since I retired, because that was certainly not the case a few years ago. Each file, physical or electronic, had control of access rules and access registers so that supervisory and security personnel could see who was working on what.



To my knowledge, there are access registers (electronic and otherwise) and systems that are segregated (air gaps).  But "Need to know" is too often an obstacle to efficient functioning - as it can be very difficult to assess who needs information.  Thus, sometimes, workarounds are crafted.

Right now I suspect acess logs are being reviewed in detail to discover what all he did have access to.  They will also conduct interviews to discover if password sharing was going on ; evaluate whether or not proper document handling was practiced... in short, conduct a comprehensive security audit.


Management of designated and classified information is always a challenge.  I seem to recall reading about the US Embassy in Iran having massive quantities of paper documents on hand and being physically incapable of destroying even the most sensitive items within the timeline they were mandated to do so (and even that much time wa snot available to them).


----------



## ltmaverick25

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Then I guess things have changed a great deal since I retired, because that was certainly not the case a few years ago. Each file, physical or electronic, had control of access rules and access registers so that supervisory and security personnel could see who was working on what.



I beleive, but am not certain, that they can determine all of the material he would have accessed electronically.  However, this is something they would now be doing after the fact.

As far as a paper registry, absolutely, there are controls applied to that IF done properly.  
Again though, I think in this case, the worst case scenario would be unlikely.  If I am wrong, I think there will be more then one person in hot water over this.


----------



## The Bread Guy

.... on the arrest & charges:


> Following a comprehensive investigation by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), with assistance provided by the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service (CFNIS) and other Canadian Forces (CF) assets, the RCMP has charged a CF officer, Sub-Lieutenant (SLt) Jeffrey Paul Delisle, with offences under the Criminal Code of Canada and the Security of Information Act, including breach of trust and communicating safeguarded information to a foreign entity without lawful authority. This is the first time that an individual has been charged under Section 16(1) of the Security of Information Act.
> 
> SLt Delisle is an Intelligence Officer, currently serving in Halifax, Nova Scotia. He joined the Canadian Forces Reserves in 1996 and transferred to the Regular Force in 2001.
> 
> The CF takes the security of sensitive information very seriously, and we are ever mindful of the potentially adverse operational and strategic effects that can be created by unauthorized disclosure. For this reason, all CF personnel handling such material are required to observe stringent procedures to protect its security, and are expected to comport themselves ethically, and in a manner consistent with core military values of honour and loyalty.
> 
> I would like to take this opportunity to thank the RCMP, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canada Border Services Agency and all other agencies involved for their hard work and diligence in pursuing this investigation.
> 
> While the CF remains fully committed to assisting the RCMP and cooperating in this investigation I will not be providing further details on this matter as the investigation is ongoing and the matter is now before the courts.


CF Info-machine, 18 Jan 11


----------



## JesseWZ

I was just sent a link to CTV's coverage of the event (through my COC no less) and I made the dire mistake of reading the comments.  Angry Face.


----------



## Occam

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> I beleive, but am not certain, that they can determine all of the material he would have accessed electronically.  However, this is something they would now be doing after the fact.
> 
> As far as a paper registry, absolutely, there are controls applied to that IF done properly.
> Again though, I think in this case, the worst case scenario would be unlikely.  If I am wrong, I think there will be more then one person in hot water over this.



He would only have been given sufficient privileges on the computer networks to access data needed to do his job.  Network permissions are usually granted based on the member's role, and access to data outside his own organization would have been severely restricted.  Very few people get widespread access to information, and they're system administrators, not users.  That said, access to data within his own organization is usually not restricted unless the owner of the data wants it locked down.

It would be very easy for system admins to determine what data he had access to, and security logs would reveal if he tried to access data to which he did not have sufficient privileges to access.


----------



## 57Chevy

Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act


Natynczyk says military knows how to keep secrets safe
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120118/navy-spy-case-120118/#ixzz1jrFuDsM9

The Canadian Press

Date: Wednesday Jan. 18, 2012 3:09 PM ET

OTTAWA — The country's top military commander is trying to scrub away some of the tarnish created by an unfolding spy scandal involving a junior naval intelligence officer. 

In his first public comment on the case, Gen. Walt Natynczyk says the military takes the security of sensitive information very seriously and is always mindful of the effects of leaks. 

In a written statement, the chief of the defence staff says everyone handling secrets is required to not only observe stringent procedures, but expected to conduct themselves ethically and in a manner consistent with military values. 

Natynczyk, who is in Brussels at a NATO defence chiefs meeting, wouldn't comment directly on the case of Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle, who was charged this week with communicating information to a foreign entity without authorization. 

The charges are the first ever laid under revised national security legislation passed in the wake of 9/11. 

It's been suggested that Delisle was spying for Russia -- something Defence Minister Peter MacKay refuses to confirm or deny.


----------



## cupper

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> I was just sent a link to CTV's coverage of the event (through my COC no less) and I made the dire mistake of reading the comments.  Angry Face.



First rule of reading news sites ...

NEVER READ THE COMMENTS SECTION!


----------



## Edward Campbell

According to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, we are now expelling some Russians:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-expels-russian-diplomats-in-wake-of-charges-against-canadian/article2308879/


> Ottawa expels Russian diplomats in wake of charges against Canadian
> 
> STEVEN CHASE , OLIVER MOORE  AND TAMARA BALUJA
> 
> OTTAWA, HALIFAX AND TORONTO— From Friday's Globe and Mail
> Published Thursday, Jan. 19, 2012
> 
> The Harper government has expelled staff at Russia’s embassy in the wake of charges filed against a Canadian military intelligence officer for allegedly passing secrets to a foreign power, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> The names of two Russian diplomats – including a defence attaché – and two technical staff at the embassy have been dropped from the Department of Foreign Affairs’ official list of diplomatic, consular and foreign government representatives recognized by Ottawa.
> 
> The Canadian government has not officially confirmed news reports that Russia was the recipient of secret information that Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Paul Delisle now stands accused of giving to a “foreign entity.”
> 
> He was charged under Canada’s Security of Information Act on Monday and is now in custody in Halifax awaiting a bail hearing on Jan. 25.
> 
> The matter risks casting a chill over Canada-Russia relations as the two nations jockey for position in the race for Arctic resources. The accusation that there was a spy in the ranks of the Canadian military has the potential to damage this country’s standing among defence allies.
> 
> The Russian embassy in Canada dismissed the suggestion that its diplomats or staff were expelled in reprisal for the Delisle case, saying any departures were part of a normal rotation of employees on foreign postings. They say the staffers in question returned home at the end of 2011.
> 
> “Their term of contract has expired. That’s all,” a Russian embassy official said. “It’s a planned shift of the diplomatic staff.”
> 
> The Globe and Mail has learned, however, that a number of Russian embassy staff – more than one – have left Canada in connection with the alleged spy affair.
> 
> A Russian embassy official acknowledged the following three staffers have recently left Canada, saying, however, that all departures were routine:
> 
> - Lieutenant Colonel Dmitry V. Fedorchatenko, assistant defence attaché.
> 
> - Konstantin Kolpakov, attaché.
> 
> - Mikhail Nikiforov, with the administrative and technical staff.
> 
> The embassy did not provide a clear explanation for the fourth name now gone from Canada’s official list of diplomatic, consular and foreign government representatives: Tatiana Steklova, who had been described as “administrative and technical staff.”
> 
> All four of these names were part of the official Foreign Affairs daily list as of Jan. 18 and were also part of a monthly January, 2012, list the department recently published.
> 
> The four names disappeared from the daily list as of Jan. 19.
> 
> Christian Leuprecht, an associate professor of political science at Royal Military College, said Canada has tremendous incentive to keep any expulsions low key and avoid reprisals and diplomatic spats that might escalate.
> 
> “The Canadian government does not want to get into the sort of tit-for-tat that the British and the Russian governments have been in for the last almost three years with constantly expelling each other’s diplomats in retaliation,” he said.
> 
> “Likely what the government is trying to do here is have a quiet resolution to this matter and chances are the Russian Foreign Minister would have been given a head’s up ... that the Canadian government will be asking the Russians to withdraw these individuals but that the Canadian government would do so without making public that request in order to safeguard the political relationship and not turn it into any more of an embarrassment.”
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird declined comment when asked if Canada had any hand in the fact four Russian embassy staffers were dropped from Ottawa’s official list of diplomatic, consular and foreign government representatives.
> 
> “The matter is before the courts and on a national security file; I am just not inclined to comment at this time,” he said in an interview.
> 
> Geoffrey O’Brian, a former director-general of counterintelligence at CSIS, said operatives pay close attention to military attachés at Russian embassies, trying to discern who is a member of the GRU, Russia’s largest foreign intelligence agency.
> 
> “The military attachés are classically the group from which GRU officers come, so part of the spy game – the equivalent of Where’s Waldo? – is to find out which of the military attaché staff are GRU officers and which aren’t,” Mr. O’Brian said.
> 
> SLt. Delisle – now the centre of what could be Canada’s biggest spy scandal in more than half a century – had started to bounce back in the years after declaring bankruptcy in his late 20s, moving from the reserves to the regular forces and starting his climb up the ranks of enlisted men.
> 
> But starting late in 2004 the serviceman suffered a series of new setbacks.
> 
> Two young daughters aged 10 and 11 were hit by an SUV while walking near their home in suburban Halifax, an incident that put one in the hospital and sparked a years-long battle for money. The serviceman dealt with the fallout of his girls’ injuries with his wife at his side. But court documents filed in the last 13 months indicate their union had since broken down and that they were now living in separate provinces.
> 
> It was in this period, the RCMP allege, that the serviceman started spying for a “foreign entity.”
> 
> The charges came after another attempt to rebuild his life. When arrested, he was living with a different woman, maintaining shared custody of his two daughters and had graduated from Royal Military College and moved to a job at an important intelligence unit in Halifax. But even then the echoes of his former problems continued to reverberate.
> 
> Court documents show that he was continuing to have difficulties securing money – a total of $10,500 that was to be held in trust for his daughters – from the man who hit his children. It’s not revealed in the documents, the most recent of which was filed at the end of November, whether he was able to get any money at all.
> 
> _With reports from Jennifer MacMillan and Daniel Leblanc_




Official Ottawa is still be commendably reticent about this case.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Surely some of the Tom Clancy "Cardinal of The Kremlin/Hunt for Red October educated" experts will be crying louder now with the mention of GRU.


----------



## Edward Campbell

The _Globe and Mail_ has published a photo of SLt Delisle:






SLt Paul Delisle
Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/military-releases-first-photo-of-officer-accused-of-espionage/article2308592/

The news story says the photo is from the RMC yearbook; it says Delisle graduated from RMC (presumably UTPNCM) in 2009 with a degree in political science.


----------



## Hawk

Just want to follow the thread.


----------



## 57Chevy

I guess it's safe to say bye-bye to the CD.


----------



## Scott

Media is now mining internet forums for blurbs to put into stories.

I remind everyone again to watch what they say and who they PM with.

Scott

Staff


----------



## Robert0288

Scott said:
			
		

> Media is now mining internet forums for blurbs to put into stories.



You know you are grasping at straws to make your article when....


----------



## Scott

I'm not so concerned with them grabbing quotes from here or elsewhere...but I know for a fact that some of them lack the scruples to post publicly asking for info - they'll stoop to sending mass PMs out to members, and that ain't right and it ain't tolerated. 

That's got nothing to do with the rule abiding and respectful members of the media we have here.

And already I can literally hear the salivating of certain columnists who profess to be "in the know". I imagine one or two might be upset at the timing of this news, as their article was already gone to edits and prepped for release.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I guess it's safe to say bye-bye to the CD.



You don't "lose" a CD.  You can have your clasp deferred as of the day of the charge (IF found guilty).  For example, a memberwas charged with something on 1 Jan 2010 and was due for his CD clasp in 2014, upon being found guilty of said offence, his clasp is now to be given to him in 2018, 8 years after the offence occured.


----------



## Jimmy_D

Yes but medals have been relinquished in the past, and if found guilty could be the case.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Media is now mining internet forums for blurbs to put into stories.
> 
> 
> 
> You know you are grasping at straws to make your article when....
Click to expand...

Agreed - according to one story, this is how media see the role of int via forums :


> .... 3 Intelligence Company focuses on information gathering and its staff are trained to be proficient in information technology and mapping. Members are tasked with providing guidance to help their superiors at home or abroad, some online reports suggest ....


Yup, this certainly gives the public a truly textured feel for the work >>eyeroll<<


			
				Scott said:
			
		

> *I remind everyone again to watch what they say and who they PM with.*
> 
> Scott
> 
> Staff


Good advice, this - even when there's NOT a hot story being chased.


----------



## Scott

Hey, it's been shotgun or gotcha reporting for some of them for a while now.

Like I said, I can't wait for certain columnists to get their teeth sunk into this.

If anyone has received unsolicited PMs from someone they suspect is working for the media please report it to the Staff immediately.

Thanks


----------



## Robert0288

> this is how media see the role of int via forums :
> 
> 
> 
> stuff
Click to expand...


I for one am ok with this.


----------



## aesop081

57Chevy said:
			
		

> I guess it's safe to say bye-bye to the CD.



Wrong.


----------



## TN2IC

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Yes, yes.  That's who I meant, "The Press Corps",  CBC in particular.   ;D



CBC = Communist  Broadcasting Corporation 

Regards Comrade,
TN


----------



## jollyjacktar

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> You know you are grasping at straws to make your article when....


Such as his going bankrupt years ago?  WTF does that have to do with the issue today?  I was shaking my head in dismay/disgust at this sort of BS reporting.


----------



## Scott

Lack of official info being released equals a quick read of whatever spy novel is hanging around - voila - story material.


----------



## PMedMoe

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Such as his going bankrupt years ago?  WTF does that have to do with the issue today?



You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?

IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.


----------



## jollyjacktar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?
> 
> IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.


That is always a possibility, but then everyone has an Achilles heel.  Still, his bankruptcy happened many years before this incident.  They are digging up any dirt they can find.  I know that is their job, but it's hack reporting.


----------



## Scott

I've been put through the financial checks a couple of times for different projects, one of which was AECL, which is kind of a no-brainer. 

Don't kid yourself, finances is likely one of the easiest compelling reasons for someone to slip up. Not that this makes it right...


----------



## Occam

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That is always a possibility, but then everyone has an Achilles heel.  Still, his bankruptcy happened many years before this incident.  They are digging up any dirt they can find.  I know that is their job, but it's hack reporting.



The problem is that the money problems didn't end there.  See reply #78 in this thread.


----------



## George Wallace

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?
> 
> IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.



....and that is only one of many reasons that a "Change of Circumstances" may occur.  

The CF is much more thorough in granting a Clearance than any other Dept of Government, and rightfully so.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Scott said:
			
		

> I've been put through the financial checks a couple of times for different projects, one of which was AECL, which is kind of a no-brainer.
> 
> Don't kid yourself, finances is likely one of the easiest compelling reasons for someone to slip up. Not that this makes it right...


Certainly, usually these cases are for $$$$.  And if that all does come to pass, I'll not say "Wow, I never saw it coming".  But I absolutely despise hack reporting, and this smacks of it.


----------



## Scott

But it's an easy thing to run off of.

George is also right...I never faced "change of circumstance" when I went through my breakup and subsequent financial issues. Then again, I wasn't doing my job full time so maybe the risk was deemed lesser than normal...or they didn't care...hell, I could have used a trap from a Babushka at about that time!


----------



## mariomike

Scott said:
			
		

> ...hell, I could have used a trap from a Babushka at about that time!



Or even better, her Devushka.


----------



## dogger1936

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?
> 
> IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.



They sure did.


----------



## GAP

Alleged spy Jeffrey Delisle fed misinformation to fool Russians: source
Postmedia News  Jan 20, 2012 
Article Link

By Ian MacLeod

OTTAWA — Authorities fed an alleged and unwitting Canadian naval spy fabricated information as part of a classic “sour milk” counter-intelligence ploy to taint the credibility of secrets the man is suspected of passing to Russia, Postmedia News has learned.

“This was done by the book — sour the milk so that you confuse the other side,” Michel Juneau-Katsuya, a former spy service counter-intelligence officer with sources close to the Halifax case, revealed in an interview Friday.

Once naval officials suspected there was a spy in their midst, deliberately flawed information was baited and designed to eventually be discovered by its foreign recipients, casting doubt the usefulness of any other classified data related to the case.
More on link


----------



## Edward Campbell

GAP said:
			
		

> Alleged spy Jeffrey Delisle fed misinformation to fool Russians: source
> Postmedia News  Jan 20, 2012
> Article Link
> 
> By Ian MacLeod
> 
> OTTAWA — Authorities fed an alleged and unwitting Canadian naval spy fabricated information as part of a classic “sour milk” counter-intelligence ploy to taint the credibility of secrets the man is suspected of passing to Russia, Postmedia News has learned.
> 
> “This was done by the book — sour the milk so that you confuse the other side,” Michel Juneau-Katsuya, a former spy service counter-intelligence officer with sources close to the Halifax case, revealed in an interview Friday.
> 
> Once naval officials suspected there was a spy in their midst, deliberately flawed information was baited and designed to eventually be discovered by its foreign recipients, casting doubt the usefulness of any other classified data related to the case.
> More on link




From the same article:



> Military and government officials are saying little about the case ...



And they are setting a good example by so doing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

GAP said:
			
		

> Alleged spy Jeffrey Delisle fed misinformation to fool Russians: source
> Postmedia News  Jan 20, 2012
> Article Link


Or then again, did they?  Ah, that wilderness of mirrors.....


----------



## Eye In The Sky

....where saying misinformation being planted IS the misinformation, which was more misinformation because of the previous DISinformation that lead to the discovery of the misinformation being passed, in an effort to detect disinformation on the misinformation that started it all in the first place!!!  

Said in British accent:  "Its really quite simple, by jove"


----------



## The Bread Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ....where saying misinformation being planted IS the misinformation, which was more misinformation because of the previous DISinformation that lead to the discovery of the misinformation being passed, in an effort to detect disinformation on the misinformation that started it all in the first place!!!
> 
> Said in British accent:  "Its really quite simple, by jove"


ZACKLY!


----------



## Nemo888

mariomike said:
			
		

> Or even better, her Devushka.


Note;
Do not google image search Devushka at work.


----------



## Scott

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Note;
> Do not google image search Devushka at work.



This thread is meant as a resource to all kinds! :nod:


----------



## observor 69

Slight change of topic. Last night on CBC the thought was dropped that Delisle may be given a plea bargain in order to learn what and how information was passed.


----------



## GAP

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Slight change of topic. Last night on CBC the thought was dropped that Delisle may be given a plea bargain in order to learn what and how information was passed.



You compile what he had access to and assume all of it compromised....


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I think what they are saying is "plea bargain if he exposes the network and how it worked".


----------



## Retired AF Guy

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?
> 
> IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.



I think declaring bankruptcy is only held against someone for five years. After five years, if you have kept yourself on the up-and-up, your record is restored.


----------



## PMedMoe

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I think declaring bankruptcy is only held against someone for five years. After five years, if you have kept yourself on the up-and-up, your record is restored.



Maybe with the banks.  I'd think the CF might take a different view.


----------



## Occam

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I think declaring bankruptcy is only held against someone for five years. After five years, if you have kept yourself on the up-and-up, your record is restored.



The bankruptcy itself is discharged (normally) in nine months.  The record of it remains on your credit file for six years.  You're free to apply for credit after the bankruptcy is discharged, although it's difficult (but not impossible) to get it.  Your record doesn't get "restored" at the end of the six years, but it is wiped of any creditor records associated with the bankruptcy and the bankruptcy itself wiped from the record.

A bankruptcy, for the most part, doesn't have the negative implications it used to have on your CF career.  Lots of people retain Level III (or higher) clearances after bankruptcy.  You may be asked about it during a clearance upgrade, but my guess is that if you don't raise any red flags with the interviewer, it's not a concern.


----------



## Journeyman

From CBC (with my amendment):


> Just what a potential spy might have been after and for whom has been the subject of frenzied [media-driven]  speculation.


         :


----------



## Jarnhamar




----------



## Scott

That's brilliant.


----------



## GAP

Military conducts security sweep at naval base after alleged spy affair
steven chase , oliver moore  AND and tamara baluja
OTTAWA, HALIFAX AND TORONTO— Globe and Mail Update
Published Monday, Jan. 23, 2012
Article Link

The Canadian military has evacuated staff from the ultra-secure naval nerve centre in Halifax where a sailor accused of espionage was working before his arrest.

The Department of National Defence said authorities are conducting a security sweep of HMCS Trinity to see whether this confidential communication centre has been compromised.

Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Paul Delisle was charged January 16 under Canada’s Security of Information Act and faces the possibility of life in prison if convicted.

Experts are scanning Trinity, a naval communications and surveillance centre, for evidence of espionage or mechanisms designed to leak information to outsiders.

“The place is being investigated .... [for] software, hardware, bugs, the works,” a military source said.

Trinity staff have been temporarily moved a few kilometres.

“As part of a normal and prudent business contingency plan, personnel belonging to elements of HMCS Trinity have been relocated to 12 Wing Shearwater for an undetermined period of time as a security precaution,” Captain Karina Holder, spokeswoman for the military’s Provost Marshal, who commands the military police, said.

The military declined to say how many people work at Trinity, a unit that gathers and analyzes information for warships. It receives intelligence collected by unmanned aerial drones operated from vessels. And perhaps most critically in the eyes of Canada's international partners, it receives confidential defence information from allies.
More on link


----------



## Jarnhamar

Maybe the HMCS Trinity is a numbers station...


----------



## Scott

They're running Norton.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Scott said:
			
		

> They're running Norton.



I thought they were running Deslile...


----------



## ltmaverick25

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You don't think that someone with potential financial problems might be a bit more at risk to sell secrets?
> 
> IIRC, the 291ers got their security clearances lowered temporarily if they had financial issues.



When someone declares bankrupcy, all their debt is erased for the most part, therefore solving the issues.  The real problem cases are the ones who do not declare bankrupcy that should.  They dont want the stigma that goes with it, and are desperate to try and avoid it and continue to struggle to keep their heads above water.  Those are the ones that can be "compromised" by comrade Ivan!


----------



## Jarnhamar

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> When someone declares bankrupcy, all their debt is erased for the most part, therefore solving the issues.



Not exactly. Depending on your surplus you still need to pay certain things. For example a friend of mine declared bankruptcy and thought he'd be scott free.  He still needed to pay $900 to whatever.


----------



## Occam

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Not exactly. Depending on your surplus you still need to pay certain things. For example a friend of mine declared bankruptcy and thought he'd be scott free.  He still needed to pay $900 to whatever.



I think that's why ltmaverick25 said "for the most part".   

Between filing and discharge of the bankruptcy, if you have surplus income (income above a certain level), you pay the trustee a monthly amount which goes to the creditors.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Must be the Russian posting season.....


> Another Russian diplomat, a defence attaché with the rank of colonel, is leaving Canada in a departure that his embassy says is a routine posting change – one under way in the midst of a spy scandal that’s rocked the Canadian military.
> 
> Colonel Sergey Zhukov, the defence attaché for the Russian government in Ottawa, has been accredited as a foreign representative with the embassy in Canada for years.
> 
> A Russian embassy official described the move back to Moscow as a “normal rotation” and referred further questions to Canada’s Department of Foreign Affairs ....


_Globe & Mail_, 25 Jan 12


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Must be the Russian posting season....._Globe & Mail_, 25 Jan 12



Now, if this were the Stalin Years, it could mean a posting to a location in a very frigid Gulag....... or perhaps an early death by "heart attack"....... or perhaps a fall from a sixth floor window.


----------



## Journeyman

Pretty prominent name; I wonder if he's related to Georgy Konstantinovich?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Occam said:
			
		

> I think that's why ltmaverick25 said "for the most part".



Ahh, just seemed like he made it sound like a get out of jail free card.

I'm not that upset by the whole thing.  We do it to them they do it to us.  I'm out of my lane obviously but it seems like a big game. He was stupid and got caught so hammer him with the maximum punishment, set something up to protect his kids and wife from reprisals and reissue his kit to new recruits.


----------



## Nemo888

Burn his kit. I wouldn't want it. It's got traitor cooties. Bad enough we reuse weapons from soldiers who died in battle.  This is worse.


----------



## George Wallace

So Nemo888, even without a fair trial, you are declaring him guilty.  

Should you be charged someday, shall we all automatically deem you guilty and have cooties?   ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Ahh, just seemed like he made it sound like a get out of jail free card.



That is a good point:  CLARITY

If a person is communicating, especially in some jobs, particularly in the CF, lack of clarity could cause the loss of lives.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Burn his kit. I wouldn't want it. It's got traitor cooties. Bad enough we reuse weapons from soldiers who died in battle.  This is worse.


A reminder:  The Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and Canada's constitution, guarantees the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Bad enough we reuse weapons from soldiers who died in battle.  This is worse.



While recycling this navy dudes underwear may be different (if found guilty of course)   I can't think of a higher honour than carrying the weapon of a fallen brother or sister into battle.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest from the Russian Ambassador:  Wait for it....


> Russian Ambassador Georgiy Mamedov says Moscow has a deal with the Canadian government to "keep quiet" about his country's involvement in the case of a naval intelligence officer accused of spying. Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Delisle is in custody on charges of passing secret military information to a foreign entity. CTV has reported Delisle passed on secrets to the Russians and Canada retaliated by expelling several Russian diplomats. "I have a deal with your people to keep quiet," Mamedov told CTV during a brief conversation at a Russian embassy event. "But after this seal of silence is lifted, I will tell you and you will be very red-faced." Asked directly if Delisle was spying for the Russians, Mamedov said: "I don't know because I am not the guy who controls Humint (human intelligence). But I can tell you what you said about some people in my embassy are dead wrong." CTV reported that six Russian diplomats have left Canada since Delisle was arrested in mid-January, including two military attachés. Sources say some of those diplomats were asked to leave as a result of the spy scandal. Mamedov declined to say which of the six Russians were asked to leave by the Canadian government. "I am not at liberty to discuss because I don't want to influence your judicial process," he said ....


CTV.ca, 9 Feb 12


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If all found to be true, money might not have been the only motivator, perhaps love (or assumed love) or blackmail. Know the Russians it could have been a mix of all 3. It might have also been a "god complex" where the spy is groomed into the role by careful stroking their ego and addicted to the thrill of breaking all the rules without being caught.


----------



## Jarnhamar

You figure being a spy pays more than $4923 a month?


----------



## brihard

Is it wrong that I was amused to see his job up on REO two days after this broke?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brihard said:
			
		

> Is it wrong that I was amused to see his job up on REO two days after this broke?



Thought I seen that too. That's pretty funny actually.


----------



## jollyjacktar

REO?


----------



## aesop081

Reserve Employment Oportunity


----------



## cupper

Brihard said:
			
		

> Is it wrong that I was amused to see his job up on REO two days after this broke?



Not a job you'd want to be too eager to apply for, lest it draw suspicion. :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## jollyjacktar

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Reserve Employment Oportunity


Hmm, but he was not a Shad?


----------



## blacktriangle

Maybe they were just going to backfill it for a while until they could post in a RegF?

...or maybe they figured the new person would find a way to add the other 15% to their salary  ;D


----------



## jollyjacktar

Spectrum said:
			
		

> ...or maybe they figured the new person would find a way to add the other 15% to their salary  ;D


Ouch  ;D


----------



## brihard

Spectrum said:
			
		

> ...or maybe they figured the new person would find a way to add the other 15% to their salary  ;D



Zing!


----------



## The Bread Guy

> The case of a Canadian navy intelligence officer accused of passing information to a foreign entity is scheduled to resume today.
> 
> Sub.-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle faces two charges of violating the Security of Information Act that deal with communicating information that could harm national interests.
> 
> Court documents say one of the alleged offences happened between July 6, 2007, and Jan. 13, 2012, while the other offence is alleged to have happened between Jan. 10 and Jan. 13 of this year.
> 
> The Halifax man also faces a breach of trust charge under the Criminal Code that is alleged to have happened between July 6, 2007, and Jan. 13, 2012.
> 
> All the offences are alleged to have happened in or near Halifax, Ottawa and Kingston, Ont.
> 
> Delisle's case is due in Halifax provincial court, where a bail hearing date is expected to be set ....


The Canadian Press, 28 Feb 12


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A Canadian navy intelligence officer charged with passing classified information to a foreign entity has been given an earlier date for a bail hearing.
> 
> Defence lawyer Mike Taylor appeared in Halifax provincial court Monday on behalf of Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle.
> 
> Taylor asked that Delisle’s bail hearing be moved ahead to March 28 from April 13.
> 
> Delisle, 40, of Bedford, faces two counts of violating the Security of Information Act and one Criminal Code count of breach of trust by a public officer.
> 
> He was arrested Jan. 13 and is being held at the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility in Dartmouth.
> 
> Delisle was not present for Monday’s proceeding, which was handled by Judge Barbara Beach in less than 30 seconds.
> 
> Outside court, Taylor said his client is "eager" to have a bail hearing and get out of jail ....


_Halifax Chronicle-Herald_, 13 Mar 12


----------



## Edward Campbell

A new report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/espionage-case-may-have-done-grave-injury-to-ties-with-allies/article2369678/


> Espionage case may have done ‘grave injury’ to ties with allies
> 
> COLIN FREEZE
> 
> From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> Published Wednesday, Mar. 14, 2012
> 
> The case of a naval intelligence officer accused of leaking classified military documents to a foreign adversary has done significant damage to Ottawa's treasured intelligence-sharing relationships with key allies, sources say.
> 
> The fallout has been an extraordinarily sensitive topic for the federal government since January, when a Canadian Forces sailor was arrested for espionage and reports surfaced that some Russian diplomats were asked to go back to Moscow.
> 
> No officials in Ottawa have been cleared to speak publicly about the damage, but some government sources say the strain on relations with allies cannot be fully gauged until damage assessments determine exactly what has been lost. Problem is, no one seems to know the extent – the leaks of military information are alleged to date back years, while the accused is understood to have been put under surveillance for only a matter of months.
> 
> Some sources characterize the damage – particularly to relations with the United States – as grave, while others say they hope bad feelings will blow over. Defence Minister Peter MacKay has said key allies retain “full confidence in Canada.”
> 
> In mid-January, Canadian Forces Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle was arrested and charged with spying. The 40-year-old worked at HMCS Trinity in Halifax, a naval intelligence hub. There, military surveillance gleaned by NATO and English-speaking allies are collated into a real-time picture of global security for Canadian policy makers.
> 
> The espionage case is a nightmare for federal security agencies, which benefit disproportionately from sharing state secrets with big players such as the United States and the United Kingdom despite the fact that Canada gives relatively little in return. Various federal officials have openly attested over the years that being a “net importer” of intelligence breeds fears that allies could cut off the information flow should Canada ever be seen as an untrustworthy junior partner.
> 
> The first person criminally charged with violating Canada’s Security of Information Act, SLt. Delisle is accused of multiple counts of leaking secrets to a “foreign entity” starting in July, 2007.
> 
> No evidence has been disclosed publicly. Prosecutors are even keeping portions of the criminal dossier under wraps from SLt. Delisle and his lawyer. “There is quite a bit of stuff that is blacked out. That will present some challenges down the road,” attorney Mike Taylor said in an interview on Tuesday, adding that, for now, he is focused on his client’s March 28 bail hearing.
> 
> There is no suggestion that the accused was part of a larger spy network. In fact, some government sources say they believe SLt. Delisle took the initiative to sell state secrets to foreigners and that only modest amounts of cash were involved.
> 
> Government insiders and allies are now asking how the accused got security clearance from government screeners despite some obvious red flags. The father of four had declared bankruptcy in 1998, and went through a painful separation from his wife a decade later. Both life-altering events are laid out in public court documents.
> 
> SLt. Delisle had been cleared to handle top-secret information – which, by definition, causes “exceptionally grave injury” to the national interest if compromised.
> 
> The federal agency that assesses the suitability of civil servants to handle secret and top-secret information now screens three times as many people as it used to: The Canadian Security Intelligence Service screened 40,000 employees in 2005-2006 and more than 120,000 in 2009-2010. (This number does not include 200,000 additional people who were looked at that year to work at the Vancouver Olympics.)
> 
> Canadian history has no obvious parallels to the Delisle case. Most allegations of spying involve foreign nationals, and trials are rare in all countries, given how they highlight security vulnerabilities and cause profound embarrassment.
> 
> In such cases, expulsions, and not prosecutions, are the norm. When U.S. authorities rounded up a 10-member spy ring two years ago, the accused were quietly deported to Russia in exchange for the release of prisoners overseas. No such exchange or deportation is possible in the case at hand – SLt. Delisle is a Canadian citizen who was apprehended in his hometown of Halifax.
> 
> In Canada, different federal departments screen to different standards. For example, federal spy services routinely polygraph their employees to gauge their reliability, but the Canadian Forces is averse to subjecting soldiers to the lie-detection machines.
> 
> Rarely do documented examples of frayed intelligence relationships among English-speaking countries surface, but some examples are known. In 2004, U.S. president George Bush was briefed by his advisers that prime minister Paul Martin was about to beseech him to allow Canada into an intelligence channel that was created for English-speaking countries – the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia – fighting together in the Iraq invasion even though Canada had refused to join the military action.
> 
> “The [Canadian] government has expressed concern at multiple levels that their exclusion from a traditional 'four-eyes' construct is 'punishment' for Canada's s non-participation in Iraq,” reads the leaked State Department briefing note released last year via WikiLeaks. “And they fear that the Iraq-related channel may evolve into a more permanent 'three-eyes' only structure. …”




I have no comments.


----------



## GAP

Uh....guys...he was a gamer.......so?


Delisle led second life online
steven chase, tamara baluja  AND jane taber
OTTAWA AND HALIFAX— From Saturday's Globe and Mail Friday, Mar. 30, 2012 
Article Link

The Canadian naval intelligence officer accused of spying led a rich second life as “Baron Mordegan,” an avid Internet gamer and a collector of medieval fantasy gear, his ex-wife says.

Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle, who was arrested in January, remains in custody after a provincial court judge in Halifax denied him bail on Friday. He’s charged with passing state secrets to a foreign country. 

In an interview with The Globe and Mail on Friday, Jennifer Delisle said her former husband, 41, was an excessive computer user.

“He admitted he had a computer addiction problem,” she said.

SLt. Delisle used the Internet screen handle “Baron Mordegan” during their 13 years of marriage, his ex-wife remembers. They divorced in 2010.

She said he once explained that it came from a 1988 fantasy movie titled Willow.

The George Lucas film, which hit theatres two years before SLt. Delisle graduated from high school, is a sword-and-sorcery tale. There’s no character named “Baron Mordegan” in the script, but there is one named “Madmartigan,” a renegade warrior who redeems himself.

Ms. Delisle said her ex-husband was already hooked on medieval and military history when she met him at age 15.

The Canadian Forces member devoted hours of free time to the immersive online fare, she recalled. 
More on link


----------



## blacktriangle

And you guys thought WoW was just a game...

Better find out who all the Comm Rsch and LCIS guys have been talking to...


----------



## PMedMoe

Bail denied for naval officer charged with spying

A Nova Scotia judge has denied bail to a Canadian naval officer charged with spying. 

Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle, 40, faces two charges under the Security of Information Act and a criminal charge of breach of trust. 

Delisle appeared in a Halifax court for a bail hearing Wednesday, when the decision was put over until Friday morning. 

There is a publication ban on the proceedings. 

More at link


----------



## Journeyman

GAP said:
			
		

> Uh....guys...he was a gamer.......so?
> More on link


From further on in the article, he seems to have bought a "Central Intelligence Agency-theme coffee mug" and "a challenge coin – bearing the symbols of the U.S. Defence Intelligence Agency." He _appears_ to be a poser within the Int Community as well as any other 'negative attributes' -- you know, computer gaming (but medieval fantasy   ; not a cool war-fighting game), and that whole spying and betraying your country thing.


----------



## Robert0288

Spectrum said:
			
		

> And you guys thought WoW was just a game...
> 
> Better find out who all the Comm Rsch and LCIS guys have been talking to...



They already do that.  Also WoW is terrible, internet spaceships are much better.


----------



## cupper

Journeyman said:
			
		

> From further on in the article, he seems to have bought a "Central Intelligence Agency-theme coffee mug" and "a challenge coin – bearing the symbols of the U.S. Defence Intelligence Agency." He _appears_ to be a poser within the Int Community as well as any other 'negative attributes' -- you know, computer gaming (but medieval fantasy   ; not a cool war-fighting game), and that whole spying and betraying your country thing.



Don't forget that the Navy does all of their war fighting on computer, so they play medieval fantasy because their personal weapons skills are limited to swinging a sword. >


----------



## jollyjacktar

cupper said:
			
		

> Don't forget that the Navy does all of their war fighting on computer, so they play medieval fantasy because their personal weapons skills are limited to swinging a sword. >


Oh yeah?  My second CO in 1 MP PL received Dungeons and Dragons Monthly.  Dweebs are not only in the Navy.


----------



## Journeyman

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Oh yeah?....


So _that's_ the internet equivalent of 'clutching at straws'   op:


----------



## old medic

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20120508/jeffrey-delisle-halifax-naval-intelligence-spying-case-returns-to-court-120508/

The Canadian Press
08 May 2012 



> HALIFAX — The case of a Halifax navy intelligence officer accused in a case of espionage has been adjourned until next month.
> 
> Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Delisle is charged with communicating information to a foreign entity that could harm national interests.
> 
> His lawyer, Mike Taylor, told provincial court he hasn't received full disclosure and the case was adjourned until June 13.
> 
> Delisle was denied bail during his last court appearance in March, and he has been in custody at the Central Nova Scotia Correctional Facility since his arrest in January.
> 
> He was charged under a section of the Security of Information Act that was passed by the House of Commons after the terrorist attacks on the United States on Sept. 11, 2001.
> 
> The RCMP say the charges against Delisle mark the first time that anyone has been charged under that section of the act.


----------



## bravohit

hi all, 

Maybe someone already answered - but why is he not charged and court martialed under the QR&O's - I know the civi system makes sense in this case, but its almost like CF washed their hands of this guy. Didnt he just comit treason? Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??


----------



## dapaterson

bravohit said:
			
		

> hi all,
> 
> Maybe someone already answered - but why is he not charged and court martialed under the QR&O's - I know the civi system makes sense in this case, but its almost like CF washed their hands of this guy. Didnt he just comit treason? Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??



1.  Depending on the nature of the charges, there may be solid reasons for proceeding under the criminal vs military justice systems.  In addition, having been charged under one system, he cannot be charged for the same offence under the other.

2.  Captial punishment was abolished in the NDA roughly 20 years ago.


----------



## Journeyman

bravohit said:
			
		

> ...but why is he not charged and court martialed under the QR&O's - I know the civi system makes sense  in this case, but its almost like CF washed their hands of this guy. Didnt he just comit treason?


So if you understand and agree with why the civilian justice system is the sensible route, why invoke QR&Os?



> Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??


    :



> Maybe someone already answered...


And on a personal note, the analytic effort in this whole post, and that particular comment, demonstrates _exactly_ why the Intelligence branch is considered a dumping ground.   :not-again: 



Edit: grammatical self-nitpicking.


----------



## aesop081

bravohit said:
			
		

> Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??



 :

No, we can't.


----------



## dapaterson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And on a personal note, the analytic effort in this whole post, and that particular comment, demonstrates _exactly_ why the Intelligence branch is considered a dumping ground.   :not-again:



Wow.  I didn't stop to check the user profile - from the writing, I assumed it was just another 15 year-old igh school drop-out wannabe.


----------



## jollyjacktar

bravohit said:
			
		

> Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??


Had a peek at the profile too.  I am thunderstruck, what IS it with Squirrels?  I have rubbed shoulders with them many times in the past and to a man they've all been a little "off" somehow, but bloody hell, you should know better than to post things like this.   :facepalm:


----------



## garb811

bravohit said:
			
		

> hi all,
> 
> Maybe someone already answered - but why is he not charged and court martialed under the QR&O's - I know the civi system makes sense in this case, but its almost like CF washed their hands of this guy. Didnt he just comit treason? Cant we just shoot him and be done with it..??


For the Military Justice system, you don't charge someone pursuant to QR&Os, you charge them pursuant to the applicable section of the NDA.  

As to why the civilian charges, look at who conducted the investigation and laid the charges.  RCMP do not have the authority to lay charges pursuant to the NDA.  QR&O 107.02 IAW Sect 161, NDA, states:



> The following persons may lay charges under the Code of Service Discipline:
> 
> a.  a commanding officer;
> b.  an officer or non-commissioned member authorized by a commanding officer to lay charges; and
> c.  an officer or non-commissioned member of the Military Police assigned to investigative duties with the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service.


----------



## bravohit

Hey all,

Wow... I think I hit a couple of nerves with some of you – and the big guns came out with the secret squirrel jokes...good job guys did not hear those...

I really don’t appreciate the one about “Int dumping ground..." 

So let me explain one thing – I know we cannot shoot the guy. I get that part. I realize we also gave up the privilege a long time ago to prosecute our own for treason. I am not a lawyer, however, I found it peculiar how little involvement there appears to be from the Military on this case. That is what I was going after – by asking the question. 

I appreciate some of the responses. Some I do not.  

The best one was -  "No we can't"....I think he got the sarcasm.


----------



## Journeyman

bravohit said:
			
		

> .... and the big guns came out with the secret squirrel jokes...


You saw jest in _anything_ posted after yours?   :


> I really don’t appreciate the one about “Int dumping ground..."


So you can imagine how little we appreciate the quality of intelligence support we get from such people.

No......on second thought, I doubt if you can.



But at the risk of dragging more inane comments out, you find it "peculiar how little involvement there appears to be from the Military on this case." While I presume that they're quietly supporting the legal teams as required, what pray tell, would _you_ have the CF doing? Daily press conferences? Selling t-shirts? Preemptively burning Int geeks at the stake?
       op:


----------



## vonGarvin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> 2.  Captial punishment was abolished in the NDA roughly 20 years ago.


September 1999 was when it was removed from the scale of punishments.

But even then, we never just "...shot people and be done with it..."  (That's not for you, dapaterson, it's for that person advocating murder dressed up as capital punishment)


----------



## bravohit

Gents or ladies.
First not advocating murder – get that through your brains - however I am for capital punishment. The gentlemen in question sold out his nation, unless someone disagrees with this statement please enlighten me. 

Second, remember he caused grave injury to Canada – while wearing a uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces – so do tell me and explain this to me so a simple and stupid man like me can understand? 

Anyone feel free to pipe in to what the punishment to this should be? Everyone is entitled to an opinion? 5 years? 10 years? Maybe mr Journeyman in his wisdom can come up with a suitable punishment for selling out his country?  For me it is quite simple. 
Lets put this scenario to you – if I sell out members or the military (your brothers and sisters), and through my actions they come to harm – what is the punishment??  

As for military involvement – no I was not expecting them to sell shirts and pins like a good regimental kit shop (however it would be a great idea to make some money), however I was expecting something more....


----------



## vonGarvin

bravohit said:
			
		

> I realize we also gave up the privilege a long time ago to prosecute our own for treason.


Incorrect.

Check out section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada.



> High treason
> 
> 46. (1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
> 
> (b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
> 
> (c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
> 
> Treason
> (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
> 
> (a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
> 
> (b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
> 
> (c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
> 
> (d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
> 
> (e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act.


----------



## vonGarvin

bravohit said:
			
		

> Gents or ladies.
> First not advocating murder – get that through your brains - however I am for capital punishment. The gentlemen in question sold out his nation, unless someone disagrees with this statement please enlighten me.
> 
> Second, remember he caused grave injury to Canada – while wearing a uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces – so do tell me and explain this to me so a simple and stupid man like me can understand?
> 
> Anyone feel free to pipe in to what the punishment to this should be? Everyone is entitled to an opinion? 5 years? 10 years? Maybe mr Journeyman in his wisdom can come up with a suitable punishment for selling out his country?  For me it is quite simple.
> Lets put this scenario to you – if I sell out members or the military (your brothers and sisters), and through my actions they come to harm – what is the punishment??
> 
> As for military involvement – no I was not expecting them to sell shirts and pins like a good regimental kit shop (however it would be a great idea to make some money), however I was expecting something more....



You advocating killing him and "...being done with it."


			
				bravohit said:
			
		

> hi all,
> 
> Maybe someone already answered - but why is he not charged and court martialed under the QR&O's - I know the civi system makes sense in this case, but its almost like CF washed their hands of this guy. Didnt he just comit treason? *Cant we just shoot him and be done with it*..??



As for what he did, he is only alleged to have broken the law.  He has not been convicted of anything.

So, if he were charged and convicted of high treason or treason, how should he be punished?



> Punishment for high treason
> 47. (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.
> 
> Marginal noteunishment for treason
> (2) Every one who commits treason is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
> 
> (a) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(a), (c) or (d);
> 
> (b) to be sentenced to imprisonment for life if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while a state of war exists between Canada and another country; or
> 
> (c) to be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years if he is guilty of an offence under paragraph 46(2)(b) or (e) committed while no state of war exists between Canada and another country.



Pretty much the above. 

But it's all hypothetical.


----------



## Journeyman

bravohit said:
			
		

> Second, remember he caused grave injury to Canada – while wearing a uniform of the Canadian Armed Forces – so do tell me and explain this to me so a simple and stupid man like me can understand?


The question mark suggests that you believe this to be a question of some sort. It's not, and I hesitate to ask what "this" is that you need explained for fear it will merely cause you to post more of the same.



> Maybe mr Journeyman in his wisdom can come up with a suitable punishment for selling out his country?


Not for me to say, even if I had any particular interest or expertise. 



> As for military involvement – no I was not expecting them to sell shirts and pins like a good regimental kit shop (however it would be a great idea to make some money), however I was expecting something more....


So, at the end of your rambling diatribe, you get to the crux of the question asked of you. You completely ignore the jurisdictional mandate being a non-CF responsibility, and respond with a deeply thought-out expectation of "something more" from the military.


Analytic acumen at its finest -- nope, not a dumping ground at all.


----------



## Good2Golf

Bravohit, since communication clarity in on-line venues can be difficult, and the writer's intent is often misconstrued, on-line sarcasm is traditionally implied with the use of smilies ( : ) or mock BBS tags, such as [sarcasm]..._insert sarcastic comment here_...[/sarcasm].

Since you added neither element to indicate sarcasm, those reading inferred that you may in fact have meant exactly what your words said.

Perhaps if you had been more clear in electronically indicating your sarcasm, you might not have garnered as much "interest" to your original statement as you did.

Food for thought.


Regards
G2G


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Whatever the case, bravohit, you'll stop trying and convicting this guy in the open forums. 

That's what we have courts for and he's entitled to his days there, without your armchair quarterbacking of the case.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## observor 69

As I don't see this article mentioned:

Navy spy scandal a dilemma for Canada-Russia relations

"The New York-based publication recently quoted U.S. intelligence sources saying Delisle's breach in communications secrets was roughly as big in volume as the notorious U.S. data loss to WikiLeaks."


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/05/22/pol-cp-delisle-navy-spy-russia.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Computer problems are being blamed for the most recent adjournment in the case of a Canadian naval intelligence officer accused of spying for Russia.
> 
> On (13 Jun 12), Mike Taylor, the lawyer for Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Delisle, was granted a three-week postponement. Taylor asked for the adjournment so he could continue his review of the hundreds of documents making up the Crown’s case against his client.
> 
> “A lot of the disclosure I received was on an ... external hard drive and I had a difficult time getting it open because of the software that was being used,” Taylor said after the brief court appearance.
> 
> “I just had to get the assistance of the technical people with the federal crown in Ottawa and locally. We’ve got it sorted out but ... it’s just going to take some more time to get through it.”
> 
> Besides the information on the hard drive, Taylor said the Crown is still releasing more documents to him and many of those documents were vetted for security reasons by the various agencies involved in investigating the case ....


Halifax _Chronicle-Herald_, 13 Jun 12


----------



## cupper

Here's a question for any legal staff out there:

At what point would the defendant's lawyer have to be read into or cleared for access to some of the information he would need to receive in preparation for his client's defense. 

And how would they go about dealing with those portions that even his own lawyers could not be cleared for?


----------



## PMedMoe

Naval officer accused of espionage opts for jury trial

Article Link

A Canadian naval officer charged with spying has elected to be tried by jury in the Nova Scotia Supreme Court. 

Sub.-Lt. Jeffrey Delisle appeared in court Tuesday morning. He also asked for a preliminary hearing. 

Lawyers are to return to court Wednesday to determine a date. 

Earlier this month, Delisle had been expected to enter a plea on two charges under the Security of Information Act and a criminal charge of breach of trust, but his court appearance was put off in one of the many delays in his case. 

Delisle was working at Trinity, the navy's intelligence centre in Halifax, when he was arrested Jan. 13. He was denied bail and has remained in custody. 

More at link


----------



## The Bread Guy

CAVEAT:  The reporter doesn't appear to share the obtained documents, so we can't tell what else may be in them. 





> AN ALLEGED Canadian spy has compromised Australian intelligence information in an international espionage case that has sent shock waves through Western security agencies.
> 
> Jeffrey Paul Delisle, a naval officer, is alleged to have disclosed a vast trove of classified information to Russian agents on a scale comparable to the alleged handover to WikiLeaks of United States military and diplomatic reports by US Army private Bradley Manning.
> 
> Sub-Lieutenant Delisle's activities have been the subject of high-level consultation between the Australian and Canadian governments and were discussed at a secret international conference in New Zealand earlier this year.
> 
> Much of the information allegedly sold to the Russians was more highly classified than the disclosures attributed to private Manning, and included signals intelligence collected by the ''Five Eyes'' intelligence community of the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
> 
> Australian security sources have privately acknowledged that the security breach compromised intelligence information and capabilities across Western intelligence agencies, especially in the US and Canada but also including Australia's top secret Defence Signals Directorate and the Defence Intelligence Organisation.
> 
> Australia's High Commissioner to Canada, Louise Hand, was briefed by the Canadian government on the case shortly after Delisle's arrest on January 14.
> 
> Information released under Australian freedom of information laws shows Ms Hand discussed the case with Stephen Rigby, National Security Adviser to Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper. But her cabled report, classified ''secret - sensitive'' and sent to Canberra on January 30, has been withheld in full on national security grounds.
> 
> The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation was also briefed on the Delisle case through liaison with its counterpart, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, which also discussed the matter at a security conference attended by ASIO in NZ in February.
> 
> Another Australian diplomatic cable dated February 1 that refers to the case has also been withheld in its entirety.
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> An Australian security source told The Age that Delisle's access was ''apparently very wide'' and that ''Australian reporting was inevitably compromised''.
> 
> ''The signals intelligence community is very close, we share our intelligence overwhelmingly with the US, UK and Canada,'' one former Defence Signals Directorate officer said.
> 
> A former Australian Defence Intelligence Organisation officer and now adjunct professor at Macquarie University, Clive Williams, said: ''Close intelligence relations inevitably result in some overlap in espionage cases, because of the very extensive sharing of information.''
> 
> An Australian Defence Department spokesperson said that ''consistent with long-standing practices, the Australian government does not comment on intelligence matters'' ....


_Sydney Morning-Herald_, 25 Jul 12


----------



## Journeyman

> ...ALLEGED...
> ...is alleged to have...
> ...allegedly...
> 
> ... been withheld in full...
> ...has also been withheld in its entirety.
> 
> ....Sydney Morning-Herald, 25 Jul 12


So, the article is saying that the "Sydney Morning-Herald" is just as reliable as our CBC for providing well-researched and analyzed  journalism.


----------



## fraserdw

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So, the article is saying that the "Sydney Morning-Herald" is just as reliable as our CBC for providing well-researched and analyzed  journalism.



Not sure what you are looking for.  Alleged is appropriate until he is convicted.  The fact is that this Aussie report goes far more in depth than any CBC report because DND is holding their cards really close to their chest.  We can speculate that ship movements was not the target based on this report which was previously the speculation on here.


----------



## dapaterson

The #1 Australian secret?  "Yes, we know Vegemite tastes like ass."


----------



## Journeyman

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Not sure what you are looking for.


I'm not looking for anything; I'm simply suggesting that this is nothing more than a rehash of previously published allegations, accusations, and background info, which provides nothing new -- the key component of "news." 

Adding nothing to our knowledge of the case, this article has the analytic depth of an afternoon talk show; to be fair, some may consider that newsworthy.

Perhaps that is because I cannot see how the potential targetting of ship movements can be dismissed based on what is rehashed here.


----------



## Occam

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for anything; I'm simply suggesting that this is nothing more than a rehash of previously published allegations, accusations, and background info, which provides nothing new -- the key component of "news."
> 
> Adding nothing to our knowledge of the case, this article has the analytic depth of an afternoon talk show; to be fair, some may consider that newsworthy.
> 
> Perhaps that is because I cannot see how the potential targetting of ship movements can be dismissed based on what is rehashed here.



Oh, I don't know...prior to this _Sydney Morning-Herald report_, Canadian news stories played up the fact that he worked at Trinity, which (amongst other things) is responsible for tracking ship movements.  That information is classified Confidential, or Secret at best.  

The _Sydney Morning-Herald_ story is the first that I've seen that suggests that our AUSCANZUKUS wingers are now concerned that Delisle worked/was working with access to SIGINT, which is about as sensitive as classified material gets.  Extremely sensitive stuff.  The material Private Bradley Manning had access to pales in comparison to SIGINT.


----------



## Sub_Guy

http://www.seawaves.com/portvisits.asp

Ship movements!  Looks like the Pro and Cal could be headed to Sydney (nice trip there)


----------



## Occam

....Confidential or Secret at best, unless Command deliberately announces scheduled visits, that is...


----------



## Monsoon

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> http://www.seawaves.com/portvisits.asp
> 
> Ship movements!  Looks like the Pro and Cal could be headed to Sydney (nice trip there)


Or - gasp - real-time data: http://marinetraffic.com/ais/


----------



## Journeyman

Occam said:
			
		

> Oh, I don't know...prior to this _Sydney Morning-Herald report_, Canadian news stories played up the fact that he worked at Trinity, which (amongst other things) is responsible for tracking ship movements.  That information is classified Confidential, or Secret at best.
> 
> The _Sydney Morning-Herald_ story is the first that I've seen that suggests that our AUSCANZUKUS wingers are now concerned that Delisle worked/was working with access to SIGINT, which is about as sensitive as classified material gets.  Extremely sensitive stuff.  The material Private Bradley Manning had access to pales in comparison to SIGINT.


The classification level is irrelevant to the suppositions being bandied about. Because SIGINT_ is_, however, relevant to ship tracking, I'd not dismiss any options based on a not-particularly informative newspaper story. 


Personally, I'm not too interested either way; as such, I'll let the judicial system play out without any further Agony Aunt input on my part.


----------



## Occam

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The classification level is irrelevant to the suppositions being bandied about.



But it is relevant to the level of damage done to the 5-Eyes community, hence why the _Sydney Morning-Herald_ brings something that other media outlets had not yet picked up on.  If all Delisle had access to was Secret and below information, then that's serious but not earth-shattering.  If he had access to SIGINT at the TS level and above...then I can certainly understand why AUSCANZUKUS would be very, very concerned, as the story describes.  

It's a fairly safe bet that if he had higher access, then whoever he was (allegedly) passing the info to was probably not interested in the slightest in our five-year Opsked or periodic Maritime Intelligence Summaries.  That's all I think anyone is trying to say.


----------



## PMedMoe

Accused spy pleads guilty in Halifax court

Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle pleaded guilty this morning to spy charges, a surprise move made before his preliminary hearing in a Halifax court.

The intelligence officer with the Canadian Forces was charged with breach of trust and two counts of passing information to a foreign entity.

Delisle's preliminary hearing was scheduled to start Wednesday morning, but the lawyer told the judge his client would plead guilty to all three charges.

The judge asked Delisle, "Do you understand the charges?" and he nodded yes, reports the CBC's Stephen Puddicombe.

He wore the same grey-blue hoodie and jeans he has worn to all his court appearances since his arrest.

Court proceedings have halted as the officials decide on sentencing dates.

More at link


----------



## Journeyman

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> He wore the same grey-blue hoodie and jeans he has worn to all his court appearances since his arrest.


Tough economic times/personnel cuts when the CBC's Fashion Editor is sent out to cover courtroom proceedings.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I did not see that one coming.  The disclosure must have shown him that they had him dead to rights.  Will be interesting to see what sort of sentence is passed.  I wonder how much his career was worth as I'm sure he wasn't doing it for free.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I did not see that one coming.  The disclosure must have shown him that they had him dead to rights ....


Maybe the system would be happier with a touch less disclosure, given the sensitivity of the info in question?  That said, it'll be interesting to hear how much will be said in court for sentencing.



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Will be interesting to see what sort of sentence is passed.


Indeed ....


----------



## Old Sweat

Tony,

You beat me to it. He may have been offered a deal in return for a guilty plea in order to keep certain facts off the table. However, who is the Crown trying to keep out of the loop? Presumably the bad guys know what he sold/gave them, and our Allies were supposed to have been informed. Could there be a weakness somewhere else that is being masked until it can be fixed? 

All questions, and none based on any real information. To paraphrase what Mr. S Holmes said a long time ago, once you have discarded all the things that could not have happened, then what you are left with is the truth.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> You beat me to it. He may have been offered a deal in return for a guilty plea in order to keep certain facts off the table. However, who is the Crown trying to keep out of the loop? Presumably the bad guys know what he sold/gave them, and our Allies were supposed to have been informed. *Could there be a weakness somewhere else that is being masked until it can be fixed?*


I'm thinking the same thing re:  what they _don't _ want out there, and what we won't hear much about at sentencing.  Never thought of the point in yellow, though.



			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> All questions, and none based on any real information. To paraphrase what Mr. S Holmes said a long time ago, once you have discarded all the things that could not have happened, then what you are left with is the truth.


 :nod:


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Maybe the system would be happier with a touch less disclosure, given the sensitivity of the info in question?  That said, it'll be interesting to hear how much will be said in court for sentencing.


R vs Stinchcomb requires the Crown to give full disclosure to the accused pre-trial.  In a case like this involving intelligence subject matter I don't know how that would pan out or if there's any redaction.  I wasn't involved in the NCIU when I was active so this is out of my field.  

For regular court stuff I had to cough up all my notes, files and reports to the defence as per.  It did give the accused and his lawyer(s) an idea of what they were facing and they could decide how to proceed from there.  Maybe Deslile knew he stood a snowballs chance in hell.  Or maybe he struck a deal as per Old Sweat.  That will of course come out.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> R vs Stinchcomb requires the Crown to give full disclosure to the accused pre-trial.  In a case like this involving intelligence subject matter I don't know how that would pan out or if there's any redaction.  I wasn't involved in the NCIU when I was active so this is out of my field.
> 
> For regular court stuff I had to cough up all my notes, files and reports to the defence as per.  It did give the accused and his lawyer(s) an idea of what they were facing and they could decide how to proceed from there.  Maybe Deslile knew he stood a snowballs chance in hell.  Or maybe he struck a deal as per Old Sweat.  That will of course come out.


Good point - I stand corrected for using the term "disclosure", when I meant "PUBLIC disclosure", or information sharing, in the more general sense, _not_ in the legal definition.


----------



## jollyjacktar

From the CBC website.  Guess it answers my questions on what his career was worth.  Hope they throw the book at him.



> Navy spy sold secrets to Russia
> Canadian intelligence officer Jeffrey Delisle smuggled data on U.S., U.K. operations on thumb drive
> CBC News Posted: Oct 10, 2012 8:06 AM AT Last Updated: Oct 10, 2012 12:57 PM AT
> 
> Canadian Forces Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle walked into the Russian Embassy in Ottawa in 2007 and offered to sell secrets to that country's military intelligence agency, beginning an espionage career that lasted almost four years, according to court material published by CBC News after the naval officer pleaded guilty to spying today.
> 
> Delisle, 41, pleaded guilty in a Halifax court Wednesday to breach of trust and two counts of passing information to a foreign entity between July 2007 and Jan. 13, 2011, in Ottawa and Kingston, Ont., and Halifax and Bedford, N.S., where he lived.
> 
> According to previously unpublished material from a bail hearing, Delisle walked into the embassy wearing a red ball cap and civilian clothes. He flashed his Canadian military identification and asked to meet with someone from GRU, the Russian military intelligence.
> 
> Delisle was posted to the security unit HMCS Trinity, an intelligence facility at the naval dockyard in Halifax. It tracks vessels entering and exiting Canadian waters via satellites, drones and underwater devices.
> 
> While there he worked on a system called the Stone Ghost, said CBC reporter Rob Gordon.
> 
> "It's a computer system that links the five eyes. The five eyes are the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. All their information is shared on the Stone Ghost computer.
> 
> "He would go to work every time with a thumb drive and download reams of information, which he would then send to the Russians on a monthly basis. And this went on for years and years and years."
> 
> He was paid about $3,000 a month for the information.
> 
> In 2009 when Delisle wanted to stop dealing with the Russians, they sent him a picture of his daughter walking to school in Halifax.
> 
> Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle covers his face leaving a Halifax court Wednesday where he pleaded guilty to breach of trust and two counts of passing information. (Steven Puddicombe/CBC)Shortly thereafter, the navy officer was told to meet his GRU handler in Brazil.
> 
> The Russians told Delisle they wanted him to be a pigeon, a spy term for a person who deals with all the secret operatives in an area. In this case it was Canada.
> 
> Delisle agreed and was handed $50,000 in cash. But when he couldn't get the money through Canadian security, the GRU gave him four $10,000 debit cards and $10,000 in cash.
> 
> When he landed at the Halifax airport, customs agents wanted to know why he was in Brazil, why he only spent a few days there and why he had thousands of dollars in cash.
> 
> Delisle told him he was on vacation, that he only spent a few days there because he didn't have much time and that he always liked to travel with cash.
> 
> Guards allowed him to enter Canada, but were suspicious and notified the military that they suspected some kind of wrongdoing.
> 
> It was then the military and RCMP began an investigation, which resulted in a raid on Delisle's house in December 2011.
> 
> Preliminary hearing cut short
> Delisle's preliminary hearing was scheduled to start Wednesday morning, but the lawyer told the judge his client would plead guilty to all three charges.
> 
> The judge asked Delisle, "Do you understand the charges?" and he nodded yes, reported the CBC's Stephen Puddicombe.
> 
> He wore the same grey-blue hoodie and jeans he has worn to all his court appearances since his arrest.
> 
> After Delisle entered his plea, it was determined that his sentencing hearing will be Jan. 10 and 11.
> 
> He's the first Canadian to face charges under the country's Security of Information Act.
> 
> That act lays out an array of breaches, ranging from threatening the safety of the Forces to selling software and the technical details of operations.
> 
> The Criminal Code charge can net a five-year prison sentence, and convictions under the Security of Information Act can lead to life in prison.
> 
> Delisle was posted to the security unit HMCS Trinity, an intelligence facility at the naval dockyard in Halifax. It tracks vessels entering and exiting Canadian waters via satellites, drones and underwater devices. The centre is a multinational base with access to secret data from NATO countries.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/10/10/ns-delisle-spy-hearing.html


----------



## observor 69

More on the same theme from  G&M.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/how-canadian-spy-jeffrey-delisle-betrayed-his-country-for-cash/article4601092/


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> From the CBC website.  Guess it answers my questions on what his career was worth.  Hope they throw the book at him.
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> While there he worked on a system called the Stone Ghost, said CBC reporter Rob Gordon.
> 
> "It's a computer system that links the five eyes. The five eyes are the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. All their information is shared on the Stone Ghost computer.
> 
> "He would go to work every time with a thumb drive and download reams of information, which he would then send to the Russians on a monthly basis. And this went on for years and years and years."
> 
> He was paid about $3,000 a month for the information ....
Click to expand...

*Ouch!  *Quite the bargain for the Russians, indeed - not so much for him, though.

It WILL be interesting to see sentencing on this one.


----------



## Allgunzblazing

Wow, I'm in total disbelief! 

In my mind, this man committed a crime similar to mass murder because he's breached the security of an entire nation. 

I have a few questions, if someone can please enlighten me - 

a. Are CF Intelligence personnel (officers, NCM and civilians if there are any) polygraphed during the recruiting process, and subsequently afterwards on a periodic basis? 

b. This is a Service Offence, so why is this individual being tried at a civil court? Shouldn't this individual be subject to the Code of Service Discipline? http://www.dnd.ca/somalia/vol1/v1c7e.htm

c. The above mentioned link also clearly states that the death penalty is possible for an act of treason. Why can't the Crown ask for the death sentence rather than life imprisonment?


----------



## dapaterson

a.  Polygraphs may be used during security screenings - I'm not in the business, so I can't say how the decision to conduct / not conduct a polygraph are made.  (And if I was, I probably wouldn't be allowed to say).

b.  In a case like this, the military and civilian authorities would determine where to conduct the trial.  Someone thought a civilian court was a more apporpriate location; not having all the information, I'm not in a place to second-guess that decision.

c.  The death penalty was removed from the code of service discipline a number of years ago.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Given his alleged access to a system that shared pretty secret stuff coming from other countries.... 


			
				Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> .... this man committed a crime similar to mass murder because he's breached the security of an entire several nations ....


FTFY


----------



## Allgunzblazing

Thanks for the info dapaterson. 

It seems to me that a number of scum bags could have been nipped in that bud if polygraphs were routinely administered - Russell Williams, Jeffery Delisle, Christopher Chaulk, etc. 

This is only my opinion, I think polygraphs should be made a part of the recruiting process for applicants of all occupations. Yes, there will be cost to this, but the benefits outweigh the cost. Then again, the CF has its own Police Academy, so I'm guessing that they will also have polygraphists. So the resource is (or rather might already be there), unlike some law enforcement agencies which have to rely on contractors for polygraphing their applicants.


----------



## Allgunzblazing

Thanks milnews. 

I had forgotten the NATO/ UN/ etc angle.


----------



## Journeyman

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> ..... I think polygraphs should be made a part of the recruiting process for applicants of all occupations. Yes, there will be cost to this, but the benefits outweigh the cost.


Unlike what you see on crime TV shows, polygraphs are far from simple, 100% accurate procedures. Often, their utility lay more in cuing investigators to dig deeper in a particular direction based on the operator's interpretation of the data. 

Even in a scenario involving a single suspect, this adds time and cost to any investigation. You want to do this with every CF applicant?

Now, I mention this only because you apparently believe that "the benefits outweigh the cost." I'm not sure what benefits would accrue from polygraphing each and every CF applicant, nor do I believe that you are aware of the costs inherent in your scheme -- not merely financial, but time and opportunity costs.


----------



## Allgunzblazing

I've been polygraphed for employment purposes. 

You're absolutely correct about the investigators being cued to dig deeper in a certain direction (when they're interviewing suspects). 

However, in employment interviews, the polygraphist digs deeper based on the reactions he gets from the person being interviewed. For example, an applicant may be asked - have you ever committed X offence? The applicant replies "no". Ten unrelated questions later, he's asked - have you ever thought of committing X offence? The candidate again replies "no", but this time the polygraphist sees a slightly different reading. So now, he knows where he must investigate further. 

Polygraphs are certainly not fool proof, otherwise findings could be used in a court of law. That being said they are definitely effective. Hundreds of PDs across the globe use this tool. 

I think every CF candidate should be polygraphed. At the very least all regular force and officer candidates. But then again - this is just wishful thinking.


----------



## Journeyman

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> I think every CF candidate should be polygraphed.


Yes, so you've said. To what end, given the inevitable implosion of the recruiting system on several different fronts (timelines, backlogs, # of specialist personnel required, "innocent until proven guilty" issues......)? 

What particular crimes are you looking for?


----------



## Allgunzblazing

I'm not looking for any particular crimes. Rather what kind of criminal behaviour particular person may be drawn towards. 

Law enforcement agencies polygraph their potential members, and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to. 

As for the issue of "innocent until proven guilty" - if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about. Secondly, being interviewed by a polygraphist can't be equated as being tried for a crime. It is simply part of the selection process and a condition of employment (in the agencies where it is used). 

Coming back to the case of Sub-Lt Jeffrey Paul Delisle - this guy had been selling secrets since 2007. Now, I don't know if Intelligence personnel are polygraphed, and if they are then how often during their career. I can say, just purely based on statistics, that if the polygraphing was done routinely (assuming its done when an Intelligence Officer/ Member is first recruited), the chances of such a crime to be committed would have been minimized. Yes, as you've correctly pointed out - polygraphing is not a fool proof method.


----------



## George Wallace

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for any particular crimes. Rather what kind of criminal behaviour particular person may be drawn towards.
> 
> Law enforcement agencies polygraph their potential members, and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to.
> 
> As for the issue of "innocent until proven guilty" - if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about. Secondly, being interviewed by a polygraphist can't be equated as being tried for a crime. It is simply part of the selection process and a condition of employment (in the agencies where it is used).
> 
> Coming back to the case of Sub-Lt Jeffrey Paul Delisle - this guy had been selling secrets since 2007. Now, I don't know if Intelligence personnel are polygraphed, and if they are then how often during their career. I can say, just purely based on statistics, that if the polygraphing was done routinely (assuming its done when an Intelligence Officer/ Member is first recruited), the chances of such a crime to be committed would have been minimized. Yes, as you've correctly pointed out - polygraphing is not a fool proof method.



Are you sure that you have a complete and comprehensive knowledge of how polygraphs really work?  Do you also have any idea of how time consuming it is to polygraph just one person, let alone 60k?

Polygraphs make, even a honest person nervous which can then lead to all kinds of negative reactions and readings.  As for some of your examples of people who should have been polygraphed, if they were pathological liars or psychopaths, they could easily fool a polygraph.   Then where does that leave you?  You are no safer then, than you are now.


----------



## Neolithium

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Then where does that leave you?  You are no safer then, than you are now.


Not safer just a little more broke due to having to pay for the polygraphs and the personnel to administer the tests.


----------



## Journeyman

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> ......and these agencies don't even have access to the vast classified info that DND personnel have access to.


Ah yes, all those recruit truckers, infanteers, airplane propeller-changers.....who are already overwhelmed swimming upstream to get to St Jean as it is.

I think that you are proposing an unnecessary and not remotely foolproof solution to a virtually non-existent problem, which if implemented will cause many more problems than it could ever potentially solve.

Oh, and "if a person has got nothing to hide, then he/ she has got nothing to be afraid about," kind of flies in the face of constitutional ethics here in Canada...notwithstanding the wrongful accusations from false positives that are statistically inevitable, which would climb dramatically in your system. I suspect if suspended because of a mistaken interpretation, you'd be less likely to shrug and say, "hey, if you've got nothing to hide...."


Anyway, feel free to have the last word; any further attempt at making a point would be repetitious.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Loads of polygraph pros and cons already bashed about here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/65788.0/all.html


----------



## fraserdw

There is no way to protect the system from this, this guy was in a trade that goes to great pains to ensure it gets secure stable people for this very reason.  The fact is that greed, ambition and un-patriotic behavior are hard to qualify in personnel selection.  What can be put in place is the systems to limit this.  In banks, they system remote systems that are data loaded centrally, no one has access to a USB port to down load data.  It is long past time that the GoC consider installing such dumb terminals.  This guy walked around a high security area with an outside USB stick, here we are not allowed to bring USB sticks in high security areas and the sticks we use in HS areas are marked very obiviously for use only in that area.


----------



## dapaterson

Our neighbours to the south saw someone bring in "music DVDs" that were blanks, which he in turn filled with classified data (the WikiLeaks incident).  We are not alone in failing to properly secure data and systems.


----------



## George Wallace

fraserdw said:
			
		

> ..........  This guy walked around a high security area with an outside USB stick, here we are not allowed to bring USB sticks in high security areas and the sticks we use in HS areas are marked very obiviously for use only in that area.




Those rules are in place.  He flaunted those rules if he did bring in a USB stick, or any other electronic or non-electronic recording device.  

I suppose that would bring us to the next illogical suggestion; everyone requiring access to a "Secure environment" must enter and leave naked.  Then we would also have to hire persons to stand there and conduct "Body Searches" of body cavities.  Time to invest in a company that produces surgical gloves.


----------



## Occam

fraserdw said:
			
		

> It is long past time that the GoC consider installing such dumb terminals.



The GoC is way ahead of you.  Go onto DWAN and search for "Virtual Hosted Desktop".


----------



## jollyjacktar

Not being a IT genius, how could he bring in an outside stick and download.  On ship, hell even in the shore office if we to stick an outside stick in a work station the CCR is onto us like gangbusters and you're in for a righteous shitkicking.  I would think that at numpties work, Trinity or elsewhere the work stations there would have screamed blue bloody murder at some outside gear  being introduced.  But then, as this did happen, apparently I am very mistaken.   ???


----------



## Edward Campbell

Sadly, people who work in very secure areas think that the _normal_ security rules don't apply to them.

When I still served, many, many years ago, I learned that having a high security clearance does not mean one has a high IQ. I know, I had a very high security clearance.


----------



## Maxadia

I would also agree that removing the USB ports/ providing dumb terminals would be a good idea.  Otherwise, it's like leaving a secure area locked in a case where everyone could potentially have the key to the secure room....and we just TRUST them not to use one of those easily accessible keys.


----------



## PJGary

I'm sure this has already been said but HOLY CRAP did I find it funny how bad the Russians took this idiot for a ride.

I just pictured a bunch of people watching him in the security camera in his super secret hoody ballcap and sunglasses walking into the embassy, flashing his CF ID. All of them pause and then burst out laughing, "Eh! getta load 'a this f***ing guy over here!" (except in Russian).


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> Wow, I'm in total disbelief!
> 
> In my mind, this man committed a crime similar to mass murder because he's breached the security of an entire nation.
> 
> I have a few questions, if someone can please enlighten me -
> 
> a. Are CF Intelligence personnel (officers, NCM and civilians if there are any) polygraphed during the recruiting process, and subsequently afterwards on a periodic basis?



Unless they have changed the procedure in the last few years, you are not polygraphed at anytime when joining the CF Int Branch or at a later date. CSIS, on the other hand, I believe does. 

As other posters have mentioned polygraphs are not 100% accurate and can give false readings, which is probably why their findings are not allowed in a court. In fact, there is a lot of evidence out there that puts polygraphs in the junk science category. as for their usefullness, both the CIA and FBI use polygraphs (CIA personnel are tested on a yearly basis) and they have had personnel who passed with flying colours only to discover they were spying for foreign agencies (if my memory serves me correctly, one, possibly two for Russia and one for Israel). 

So, polygraph tests does not necessarily mean you are going to catch a spy and in any case, this guy became a spy _*after*_ joining the Int Branch. There are much better ways of catching spies, for example, by keeping an eye on foreign embassies and members of hostile int agencies; monitoring your members for any marital problems or financial irregularities (e.g. unexplained deposits of cash), if they are associating with criminal elements, etc, to name just a couple of examples.


----------



## cupper

What I find frightening about this is how easily this could have continued, if either Delisle or his so-called handlers had even a little bit of common sense.

According to the news reports of the evidence presented, he was busted because a Canadian Customs agent was good at his/her job and realized that something just didn't seem right about his explanations for carrying a large sum of money, or the short duration of his trip to Brazil.

First, you would think that the handlers would at least realize that carrying that much cash over international borders would raise flags all over the place.

If they gave him pre-paid credit cards of $10,000 each, why the additional cash? No one would question the cards if you left them in your wallet, it would just look like another credit or gift card. 

Why meet in Brazil? Unless he had planned a vacation trip there in the first place, it makes no sense and would only raise suspicions. At the very least either he or his handlers could have come up with a better story as to why he was only in country for a short period of time. Hell, if there was a need to meet outside the country, trip to Maine could easily have been a better option, easily explained as a short shopping or camping trip. And driving across the border would bring much less scrutiny than at an international arrivals area of an airport.

Sometimes I wonder about the quality of today's criminal or traitor person working for foreign powers  :facepalm:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

cupper said:
			
		

> What I find frightening about this is how easily this could have continued, if either Delisle or his so-called handlers had even a little bit of common sense.
> 
> According to the news reports of the evidence presented, he was busted because a Canadian Customs agent was good at his/her job and realized that something just didn't seem right about his explanations for carrying a large sum of money, or the short duration of his trip to Brazil.
> 
> First, you would think that the handlers would at least realize that carrying that much cash over international borders would raise flags all over the place.
> 
> If they gave him pre-paid credit cards of $10,000 each, why the additional cash? No one would question the cards if you left them in your wallet, it would just look like another credit or gift card.
> 
> Why meet in Brazil? Unless he had planned a vacation trip there in the first place, it makes no sense and would only raise suspicions. At the very least either he or his handlers could have come up with a better story as to why he was only in country for a short period of time. Hell, if there was a need to meet outside the country, trip to Maine could easily have been a better option, easily explained as a short shopping or camping trip. And driving across the border would bring much less scrutiny than at an international arrivals area of an airport.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder about the quality of today's criminal or traitor person working for foreign powers  :facepalm:



Ever think maybe the Russians wanted to get rid of him?


----------



## jollyjacktar

cupper said:
			
		

> Sometimes I wonder about the quality of today's criminal or traitor person working for foreign powers  :facepalm:


Oh, you can call him a traitor now.  He's plead guilty.  Named and shamed.


----------



## PJGary

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Ever think maybe the Russians wanted to get rid of him?



 :+1:

You would think a country with a fairly extensive crop of experience in international espionage would think before setting up an almost comically elaborate meeting and giving him a ton of cash and then sending him right back through customs. I wonder if he even wrote the cash down on his customs declaration hahaha.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> I think every CF candidate should be polygraphed.


What kind of questions should they be asked?



> At the very least all regular force and officer candidates. But then again - this is just wishful thinking.



Why regular force only?

Reservists work in NDHQ, Dwyer Hill, etc..


----------



## cupper

PJGary said:
			
		

> :+1:
> 
> You would think a country with a fairly extensive crop of experience in international espionage would think before setting up an almost comically elaborate meeting and giving him a ton of cash and then sending him right back through customs. I wonder if he even wrote the cash down on his customs declaration hahaha.





			
				RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Ever think maybe the Russians wanted to get rid of him?



There are much easier and cheaper ways of burning an asset, and less trackable as well.


----------



## The Bread Guy

cupper said:
			
		

> There are much easier and cheaper ways of burning an asset, and less trackable as well.


My WAG is that _any_ bureaucracy sometimes comes up a less-than-ideal way to do things - which are allowed to slide if the thing they're hoping to do gets done.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

cupper said:
			
		

> First, you would think that the handlers would at least realize that carrying that much cash over international borders would raise flags all over the place.
> 
> If they gave him pre-paid credit cards of $10,000 each, why the additional cash? No one would question the cards if you left them in your wallet, it would just look like another credit or gift card.



You are absolutely right, carrying large sums of cash these days is sure to get the interest of Custom/security agencies.  Another possibility is that that's what he wanted from his handlers to continue working for the Russians. His handlers they may have thought that he would just sail through Customs with no problem. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. 



> Why meet in Brazil? Unless he had planned a vacation trip there in the first place, it makes no sense and would only raise suspicions. At the very least either he or his handlers could have come up with a better story as to why he was only in country for a short period of time. Hell, if there was a need to meet outside the country, trip to Maine could easily have been a better option, easily explained as a short shopping or camping trip. And driving across the border would bring much less scrutiny than at an international arrivals area of an airport.



Remember, his Canadian handlers would have had very little chance to talk to him in-depth. Taking a trip to a foreign country would give his handlers that chance. They don't want to do it in a western country (especially a NATO country) because they all have pretty good counter-intelligence units. Therefore, no trip to Maine. A trip to a country like Brazil, where their CI capabilities may not be as robust as a western/NATO country. It would give the Russians a chance to gather more information on his motivations, his fears/strengths, any concerns he may have had, info on further contacts, priority info the Russians are interested, etc. It would also give the Russians a chance to determine whether he was the real thing and not a double agent. 

I'm sure that over the next few days we will be hearing more details from Canadian and foreign CI experts.


----------



## cupper

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Remember, his Canadian handlers would have had very little chance to talk to him in-depth. Taking a trip to a foreign country would give his handlers that chance. They don't want to do it in a western country (especially a NATO country) because they all have pretty good counter-intelligence units. Therefore, no trip to Maine. A trip to a country like Brazil, where their CI capabilities may not be as robust as a western/NATO country. It would give the Russians a chance to gather more information on his motivations, his fears/strengths, any concerns he may have had, info on further contacts, priority info the Russians are interested, etc. It would also give the Russians a chance to determine whether he was the real thing and not a double agent.



I thought about that too, and it's a very good argument.

I've read too many cold-war spy thrillers so perhaps I'm setting the bar too high. 

Maybe I'll wait for the book to come out.


----------



## Robert0288

People are stupid and get complacent.  Last year around this time the US burned more than a dozen guys in Iran and Lebanon because their handler dropped the ball.


----------



## Monsoon

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> You are absolutely right, carrying large sums of cash these days is sure to get the interest of Custom/security agencies.  Another possibility is that that's what he wanted from his handlers to continue working for the Russians. His handlers they may have thought that he would just sail through Customs with no problem. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.


Don't think for a minute his pull-over at Customs was a coincidence: they've got their guys and we've got ours. The Globe story mentions that the service actually had access to the email account he was using to swap the information for months before they arrested him. That suggests to me that someone on the other side was helping us out at some point, but I don't think it was because it was in their government's interest to do so. The shift to cash-and-carry does look like a set-up to me; if they don't like wire transfers into Canada, why not just deposit the money into a foreign account and give him a debit card with access to it?


----------



## Journeyman

I can't help but notice that in every thread where government operations and bureaucracies are involved -- CF recruiting, aircraft acquisition, veterans' payments -- it's a complete and utter goat rodeo. But if it's a set-up or conspiracy, damn those various agencies pull together in an _amazing_ fashion.   :nod:

Me? I'm content to spectate as it plays out.  op:


Oh, and I _suspect_ that large, repetitive draws on foreign bank holdings get noticed too, so the foreign account/debit card plan may not work quite so well either.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can't help but notice that in every thread where government operations and bureaucracies are involved -- CF recruiting, aircraft acquisition, veterans' payments -- it's a complete and utter goat rodeo. But if it's a set-up or conspiracy, damn those various agencies pull together in an _amazing_ fashion.   :nod:


Milpoints inbound.....


----------



## Good2Golf

The Russians should have paid him in large shipments of forged Timmies Roll-up-the-Rim winning cups...then he could have slowly extracted large amounts of cash and prizes in a very Canadian way without any agency noticing.

Amatures...


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The Russians should have paid him in large shipments of forged Timmies Roll-up-the-Rim winning cups...then he could have slowly extracted large amounts of cash and prizes in a very Canadian way without any agency noticing.
> 
> Amatures...



Is that a nice new car in your driveway, with a free cup of coffee in the cupholder, comrade?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

The only silver lining in this sordid affair is that Canadian (oh no! Not us! Everybody likes us in the world!) are being reminded once again that espionage is still going on between countries even in this era of globalization and that we ARE a target. Ever vigilance is a cost we must continue to bear.

This said however, you could multiply the rules, regulations and systems to protect our secrets and it would ultimately always fail at some point: Counterespionage is a human task by definition and it involves trying to get into someone else's mind. No easy task. That is why the people counterspies watch are those with access, not everyone at large (which is why a large ongoing spying activity is to penetrate your equivalent agency in the other camp). I must therefore disagree with the suggestion that all CF officers be "polygraphed". First of all, as has been pointed out, it is far from fool proof; second, most of our people - including officers - do not have access to sensitive secrets (there are documents I had never been allowed to see until I became a ship's captain - and only the yeoman had seen them other than I); and third, but most important in my mind, unlike the shadowy world of mistrust that exist in the spy/counterspy world, we in the operation side of the military rely on TRUST and I'll be damned if I do anything to make any of my officer think for one second I don't trust them.

Someone mentioned he may have been burned. That is a definite possibility - and one potential reason for such turn is that the handling country wanted to affect that trust that must exist in the military. It would not be the first time. Another reason might also be to let us know that they now know what we know about them (think about it!). All of this, however is sheer speculation and we probably will never known for sure.

A small P.S. for those who raised the death penalty: It still exists in Canada, but only for one crime: High Treason, which is only for attempts on the life of the sovereign or a member of the Royal family.


----------



## dapaterson

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> A small P.S. for those who raised the death penalty: It still exists in Canada, but only for one crime: High Treason, which is only for attempts on the life of the sovereign or a member of the Royal family.



No, there is no death penalty in Canada, not even for high treason.

Or for photographing young Royals as they prance about in the nude in Vegas or on a friend's balcony.


EDIT: Per the Criminal Code of Canada:

*47.* (1) Every one who commits high treason is guilty of an indictable offence and shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life.


----------



## observor 69

Just an extra thought here ....  The war on drugs and terrorism in today's world has raised the bar on surreptitious activities. Large money transfers, short trips to drug exporting countries in South America and carrying large physical amounts of cash past customs  are red flags to the authorties. And of course the abilities of various government branches to monitor the internet. 
All these measures must be taken into account if one is to avoid detection.


----------



## Monsoon

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I can't help but notice that in every thread where government operations and bureaucracies are involved -- CF recruiting, aircraft acquisition, veterans' payments -- it's a complete and utter goat rodeo. But if it's a set-up or conspiracy, damn those various agencies pull together in an _amazing_ fashion.   :nod:


In this case, I would suggest that there was really only one agency that did the leg-work on all of this... and it wasn't the RCMP or DND. Customs will pull over anyone with a red flag on their file, and any agency in Public Safety can place one.



> Oh, and I _suspect_ that large, repetitive draws on foreign bank holdings get noticed too, so the foreign account/debit card plan may not work quite so well either.


You can get anonymous (i.e. no name associated with them) debit cards drawn on foreign banks quite easily - these guys used to issue them, until some recent unpleasantness involving a Russian oligarch looting their deposits: www.snoras.com. Obviously this will raise red flags somewhere... but used carefully it's the closest thing to untraceable you can get. Only wire transfers over $10K get routinely examined, unless originating from suspicious locations.


----------



## fraserdw

On another note we really need a system to make these guys forfeit their pay, allowances and pension on conviction.


----------



## The Bread Guy

fraserdw said:
			
		

> On another note we really need a system to make these guys forfeit their pay, allowances and pension on conviction.


Pension has been paid into, so that might be tricky not to give back, but in a fairly recent, ugly case, they have docked pay/benefits collected between arrest & dismissal, and no severance, either.


----------



## Journeyman

Among the comments to today's CBC report, "Delisle spy story elicits shrugs from allies"



> DeweyOxberger
> 2012/10/12 at 6:39 AM ET
> 
> "Five Eyes" is designed to facilitate domestic spying on the participant countries own citizens, Britain spies on Canadians and reports the result to Canada's spy agency, Canada spies on Americans and reports the results to the Americans, there by skirting the ban on domestic spying, it's a clever end run around the law. As long as it's main task domestic spying isn't challenged, and the status quo is maintained it sees no cause for alarm..



With a like:dislike ratio of 3:1 from readers, tinfoil stocks are apparently still trading well.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## jollyjacktar

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Among the comments to today's CBC report, "Delisle spy story elicits shrugs from allies"
> 
> With a like:dislike ratio of 3:1 from readers, tinfoil stocks are apparently still trading well.   :Tin-Foil-Hat:


Consider the source of the comment.  That poster has a history of heavy tin foil usage.  Everything's a conspiracy with that one, especially if it involves the Harper administration.   :


----------



## jollyjacktar

The traitor keeps his pay and rank till Jan.   



> Navy spy to keep rank, salary until sentencing
> Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle to be sentenced in January for selling military secrets
> CBC News Posted: Oct 15, 2012 1:01 PM AT Last Updated: Oct 15, 2012 12:54 PM AT
> 
> Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle, who has pleaded guilty to selling military secrets to Russia, will keep his pay, rank and benefits until he is sentenced in January, the Department of National Defence confirmed to CBC News.
> 
> "The Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces provide for the forfeiture of pay for the period during which a member is in civil custody awaiting trial by a civil tribunal, if the civil tribunal subsequently finds the member guilty of an offence," a spokesman for the department said in an email.
> 
> "As the matter is still before the court, it would be inappropriate to further comment on matters relating to his service at this time."
> 
> Delisle, 41, pleaded guilty in a Halifax court last week to breach of trust and two counts of passing information to a foreign entity between July 2007 and Jan. 13, 2011. The offences happened in Ottawa and Kingston, Ont., and Halifax and Bedford, N.S., where he lived.
> 
> Although Delisle entered the guilty pleas and the pleas were accepted by Justice Patrick Curran, the Department of National Defence said the court "has not yet found him guilty of the offences." It's possible the defence department will attempt to recover back pay once Delisle is sentenced.
> 
> Delisle's sentencing has been set for Jan. 10 and Jan. 12.
> 
> The only time a Canadian Forces member was stripped of his Queen's commission was in the case of convicted murderer Russell Williams, who was stripped of his rank as colonel and denied severance pay.
> 
> Williams was also stripped of his medals, with his pay terminated and recovered from the date of his arrest. That did not happen until after he was sentenced for his crimes.
> 
> Only the Queen or her representative in Canada, the Governor General, can strip an officer of his or her commission.
> 
> Delisle walked into the Russian Embassy in Ottawa in 2007 and offered to sell secrets to that country's military intelligence agency, beginning an espionage career that lasted almost four years.
> 
> Delisle was posted to the security unit HMCS Trinity, an intelligence facility at the naval dockyard in Halifax. It tracks vessels entering and exiting Canadian waters via satellites, drones and underwater devices.
> 
> While there, he worked on a system called the Stone Ghost linking the "Five Eyes" allies: the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Delisle downloaded information onto a floppy disk and uploaded it to an email address for his Russian handlers.
> 
> He was paid between $2,800 and $3,000 a month by the Russians for the information.
> 
> The maximum sentence for communicating information to a foreign entity is life in prison.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/10/15/ns-delisle-pay-rank.html


----------



## Remius

Given that he plead guilty, he likely got a bargain.  But I hope it is as severe as possible. not so much to punish him but to set a strong precedent and example.


----------



## Wookilar

Given the brazen way it all started, I can't see the crown going for anything but close to the max. I see his lawyer has already started the "it wasn't for the money" spiel to mitigate that.

WRT the pay/rank issues, until he is found guilty and sentenced, the CF's hands are pretty much tied. Given that we have a start date for his second career it will be interesting to see just how much pay we will try and recover. After all, he never asked his CO for permission to have a second job did he?

Like to see that memo.  ;D


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Article on the ipolotics webpage by a "Mr. Black" who "[W]orked in the intelligence and security sector for more than 20 years prior to his retirement from active service. His government service included time as a liaison officer in international postings." Mr Black gives his views on the Delisle case. Re-produced under usual caveats of the Copyright Act.



> Spy case raises troubling questions for Canada’s security community
> By Mr. Black | Oct 16, 2012 5:05 am | 0 Comments
> 
> The case of Sub Lt Jeffrey Delisle, the Canadian Naval Intelligence Officer who pleaded guilty in a Nova Scotia provincial court last week to selling Canadian and NATO intelligence to Russia for $3,000 a month, raises several issues for the government and it’s security staff.
> 
> The first issue will be the effect of this case on Canada’s relations with its intelligence partners. Canada is one of the “Five Eyes” Community, along with the U.S., the UK, Australia and New Zealand. Although, rightly, exactly what Delisle sold to the Russians will never be revealed to the general public, it is likely that it included material which one or all of the partners would have considered sensitive.
> 
> However, this is unlikely to cause any major rift. The truth is that no one can get very sanctimonious about this kind of case. To name just the most famous, the U.S. have recently had the Wikileaks scandal and before that the Robert Hanson and Aldridge Ames cases. In the 1980s two UK intelligence officers, Michael Bettany and Geoffrey Prime were separately convicted of selling secrets to the Russians.
> 
> Delisle was caught after only a four year spying career, Hanson’s duplicity lasted 22 years and he was paid over a million dollars. The West’s intelligence agencies know that no security system is perfect and, to mix metaphors, sooner or later a bad apple slips through every net.
> 
> It is also unlikely that any lasting damage will have been done to Canada’s relations with Russia. Sometimes these events are ritually ended with a diplomat being expelled by the aggrieved country, which is usually followed by a tit-for-tat response by the second party. The most extreme form of this came in 1971 when the British expelled 105 Russian Diplomats in one fell swoop.
> 
> These events are usually just minor bumps in the diplomatic road. Every country spies and, occasionally, someone gets caught. C’est la vie.
> 
> The second issue which Canada will have been addressing is the practical aspects of how Delisle accessed the information and how he passed it to the Russians. As a vetted Naval Intelligence officer he presumably had a legitimate right to access the intelligence in the first place. That he then managed to pass it on to the Russians so easily will have raised concerns about the physical security of the systems to which he had access.
> 
> The sort of systems on which Delisle was working will have been on either a stand alone PC or an intranet. They will not have been connected to the Internet. This creates an “air gap” between the sensitive information and the outside world. This means that it is impossible for the material to be sent to someone by accident. Any leak of the information will therefore require deliberate action.
> 
> Delisle reportedly copied the material on to a thumb drive which he then passed to the Russians. This is a clear weakness in the system. It is common practice for both private companies and government departments to disable disc drives and USB ports on PCs in sensitive areas. If an employee has a valid reason to copy some classified material on to a disc or any external drive, this is done by a central IT unit and the action is recorded, together with the contents of the disc and reason why it has been copied. This provides an audit trail for IT security to follow. When the disc or drive is finished with, it is returned to the central point for either wiping or destruction. As well as information security, this also provides a defense against computer viruses invading the internal systems.
> 
> It is very surprising that the USB port on Delisle’s computer was not disabled and that he was able to copy it so easily. Once the material was on the thumb drive it would have been easy for him to get it out of the building. Thumb drives are very small, and, even in buildings where random exit searches are carried out these are normally perfunctory.
> 
> Delisle was reportedly caught after he returned from a short trip to Brazil to meet his Russian handler. He then apparently flashed large amounts of cash and this came to the attention of the security authorities. We don’t yet know how they caught on to him, whether it was one of his colleagues who noticed something unusual or whether it was the security authorities themselves. (If it was the latter, then kudos to them.) As an aside, this seems remarkably stupid on his part, $3,000 a month is not exactly a lottery-winning amount and if he had just carried on his normal life just paying for bits here and there with cash, I suspect no-one would have noticed.
> 
> Which brings us to the subject of vetting. When a case like this occurs, someone always puts it down to a failure of the vetting system. And to some extent it is. Vetting systems are designed to do three things, firstly to establish that the person is who they say they are, by checking ID, looking at recent employment history and addresses over the last 10 years. Secondly, to find any personal weaknesses that might open them to blackmail or duress, such as a gambling problems, debts, sexual peccadilloes, lack of discretion etc. Lastly, it attempts to try and gauge their loyalty to their country.
> 
> There is also the polygraph, or lie detector. There are major doubts in the scientific community about their efficacy. In a 1998 U.S. Supreme Court case (United States vs Scheffer) the majority commented, “There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable.”  Aldrich Ames passed two polygraphs whilst spying for the Russians, and, from his prison cell, described it as “junk science”.
> 
> Delisle seems to have decided to become a spy on a whim. All other things being equal, it is difficult to see how any vetting system could cope with that. People are extremely unpredictable and no vetting system will be infallible. Which makes it all the more important that the physical security precautions are right.



Apart from a couple of minor quibbles, I think, Mr. Black, whoever he is, has pretty well covered all the bases.


----------



## cupper

I was going back over the time line that CBC put out based on the court documents and there seems to be some inconsistencies somewhere (yes I know CBC and inconsistencies go hand in in hand).

Two things jump out. It was assumed that Delisle had access to information from his first contact in 2007 to the time of his arrest in 2012. But during that time, he was studying at RMC from 2008 to 2010. Would he have continued to have access to sensitive material during this period aside from non-academic summer sessions?

What is even less clear is that the CBC timeline seems to indicate that the trip to Brazil was in 2009, so he was on the radar for more than a year prior to his arrest. If that was the case, it's quite possible that the information was passing never reached its final desination, or at least in a form that would result in an actual breach in security.

Also, the broad focus by the media seems to be on his time at HMCS Trinity, which according to the time line started in August 2011 roughly 5 months before his arrest. From Sept 2010 to Aug 2011 he was posted to LFAA. It would seem that his time at Trinity would fall under the period of investigation. His arrest in January 2012 would have brought things to an end regardless. But it is also interesting that they didn't lock down Trinity for at least a week after Delisle's arrest.

So, having said all of that, it wouldn't be surprising that the other allies aren't overly concerned, as perhaps the breach of security may not have been as serious as it has been portrayed, and may well in fact have been allowed to run to see how much they info they could gain on methods, means, people and extent of the situation. And maybe send a little disinformation for good measure.

Hopefully the traitorous bastard is given a life 25 year vacation, preferably not the segregation unit but rather in general population.


----------



## Journeyman

cupper said:
			
		

> But it is also interesting that they didn't lock down Trinity for at least a week after Delisle's arrest.


Can you credibly say what actions were taken within Trinity before/during/after this event?

Me neither.


----------



## cupper

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Can you credibly say what actions were taken within Trinity before/during/after this event?
> 
> Me neither.



As I pointed out, there are inconsistencies in the time line. And it could well have been screwed up on dates and such.

I also pointed out that it seems that they had control over the info coming out for at least the period he was at Trinity.

Just speculation on my part. Not much to do when you are stuck in a hotel north of Philadelphia and all that is on the TV is the 5 hour pre debate punditry  :boring:

 (they don't even have this much pre game for the superbowl  :facepalm: ).


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> So, having said all of that, it wouldn't be surprising that the other allies aren't overly concerned, as perhaps the breach of security may not have been as serious as it has been portrayed, and may well in fact have been allowed to run to see how much they info they could gain on methods, means, people and extent of the situation. And maybe send a little disinformation for good measure.



If as some say, he was already watched, then one could presume that his handlers and contacts were being watched as well.  At the same time, intelligence does not have to always be sensitive information.  The enemy may already have that sensitive information, and are only looking for bits of unclassified information to confirm what they already know.

For instance; they know that a Canadian Battle Group from Edmonton's 1 VP is going to Afghanistan.  Some soldiers, spouses, girl/boyfriend posts a "I'll say goodbye at the airport on Tuesday 31 Feb" and they have a tidbit more to fill in gaps.  Then they simply check Flight times, and other mundane things to paint the larger picture.  Remember this:   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/71137/post-678628.html#msg678628  

Spying does not always entail the Nation's/NATO's/whatever alliance's most secret information.


----------



## cupper

:goodpost:


----------



## blacktriangle

Totally agree with George. Open source is invaluable.  A curious and patient researcher can yield a treasure trove of information from the internet and social media. You may try to practice good PERSEC while utilizing the internet/social media, but there is a good chance that someone within your social network does not. Their poor practices can give up your own information. 

Sometimes all you need is one piece of information to lead you to the rest, and conversely as George said, sometimes all you need is that piece to complete the picture. 

Anyone who would ignore the power of open source is foolish IMHO.


----------



## cupper

INCOMING!!!!!!!!!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just cleaned up some polygraph back & forth so we can keep the thread dealing with the court case - the polygraph chat can continue here:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/65788.0/all.html

Thanks.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Retired AF Guy

CTV is reporting that U.S. Ambassador to Canada, David Jacobson, has confirmed that Delisle not only sold Canadian secrets but also American secrets. Re-produced under the usual caveats of the Copyright Act.



> Ambassador says Canadian spy sold Russia U.S. secrets too
> 
> Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ambassador-says-canadian-spy-sold-russia-u-s-secrets-too-1.1004250#ixzz29yH6NDI0
> 
> CTVNews.ca Staff
> Published Sunday, Oct. 21, 2012 7:40AM EDT
> Last Updated Sunday, Oct. 21, 2012 11:35AM EDT
> 
> U.S. Ambassador to Canada David Jacobson is revealing for the first time that Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle sold both American and Canadian secrets to Russia. In comments during an interview to be broadcast on CTV's Question Period Sunday, Jacobson said Delisle sold confidential U.S. government information as well as Canadian secrets.
> 
> "We don't talk a lot about national security information like this, for obvious reasons," Jacobson told host Kevin Newman.
> 
> "I will say this: he pleaded guilty to selling secrets of the United States and secrets of Canada to the Russians. That is obviously not good. We've had these problems in the past and we want to make sure and the Canadians want to make sure that nothing like this is going to happen again."
> 
> When pressed to explain further what U.S. secrets were passed on, Jacobson refused to reveal details.
> 
> "Well, I'm not going to get into exactly what he passed. But there was a lot of highly classified material," Jacobson said.
> 
> Earlier this month, Delisle admitted he had regularly passed military secrets to Russia over a five-year period in exchange for payments of approximately $3,000 a month.
> But he didn't apologize. Instead he said people need to move beyond their ideas drawn from Cold War 'spy novels.'
> 
> In his Question Period interview with Newman, Jacobson said that, after the Delisle case, the U.S. stands behind the Canadian intelligence system.
> 
> "And we have confidence that Canada is a trusted ally and that we can continue to work with them," he said.
> 
> Delisle, who was arrested last January, stunned observers on Oct. 10 when he pleaded guilty to three espionage-related charges.
> 
> The 41-year-old had been employed as a threat assessment analyst at Trinity, a highly-secretive military facility in Halifax. His position gave him access to intelligence shared by the "Five Eyes"group, which includes Canada, Great Britain, the United States, New Zealand and Australia.
> 
> Delisle is due to be sentenced in January, 2013.
> 
> So far, the Canadian government has not publicly condemned Russia for the incident.




 Article Link   Link also includes an video interview with the Ambassador.

I figured the fact that Delisle sold U.S. secrets was pretty obvious considering that one of the systems he comprised was a "Five Eyes" system. He also, in all probability, sold U.K., Australian, N.Z. and NATO secrets.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Poor baby.    :sarcasm:



> ‘So dead inside’: How the Mounties cracked Jeffrey Delisle Add to ...
> COLIN FREEZE and JANE TABER
> 
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Monday, Oct. 22 2012, 9:35 PM EDT
> Last updated Tuesday, Oct. 23 2012, 10:45 AM EDT
> 
> 
> It took more than an hour of patient questioning before RCMP Sergeant Jimmy Moffat tipped his hand.  “Jeff, we have you. Okay? You’re caught. You’re so caught,” the police interrogator said, showing printouts of e-mails to Russian spies.  It was around 9 p.m. on Jan. 13, in the police interview room. Just a few hours after the arrest.
> 
> For almost five years, Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle had lived a double life. But he broke down and confessed in no time, according to a 63-page interrogation transcript obtained by The Globe and Mail.  “Jim. I’ve been so dead. So dead inside,” he said, before sobbing. “It wasn’t for the money.”
> 
> SLt. Delisle recalled the moment he betrayed his country. “I walked right into the Russian embassy and said, ‘Here I am. …’ ”  It was 2007. He didn’t specify the date beyond that it was “the day my wife cheated.”  The 41-year-old divorced father of four admitted that he had spied. And that he done it for the most banal of reasons.  He had a broken heart.
> 
> The naval officer’s hemorrhaging of state secrets has caused “astronomical” damage to national security, federal officials have said. On Monday in the House of Commons, interim Liberal leader Bob Rae pressed for a judicial inquiry into the Delisle debacle. The Conservative government is playing down the problem.
> 
> Earlier this month, SLt. Delisle pleaded guilty to espionage-related charges. A sentencing hearing is scheduled for January.  The naval intelligence officer had never been a riser in the Canadian Forces. In fact, his 16-year career never really got off the ground.  “I can’t deploy because I’m diabetic,’ he told police. “I never sailed.”
> 
> But he was put into a virtual crow’s nest from which he could see very far: the Trinity naval intelligence centre inside CFB Halifax. Trinity bursts with state secrets collected from all corners of the Earth. Secrets that are lent in confidence to Canada by its allies.
> 
> Trinity is exactly where an aggressive, non-allied spy service such as Russia’s GRU would want to be. And, through a proxy, it was.
> 
> No one noticed SLt. Delisle scouring intelligence databases for references to Russia. No one noticed him cutting and pasting text into files. No one cared that his secure computer had – against most military protocols – a floppy disk drive.  Sgt. Moffat asked the suspect how he moved data out of a secure facility.  “Disk – floppy,” SLt. Delisle replied.  “Floppy disk?”  “Yeah – I know,” he said, adding that his computer was “ancient.”
> 
> After SLt. Delisle downloaded material onto a disk, he used a second computer to transfer the data to a USB memory stick, which he pocketed before leaving. At home, he plugged the stick into his laptop to send files to the GRU. (And, after the stick was wiped clean, he said it usually ended up in his son’s Xbox.)
> 
> The Mounties were tipped to Sgt. Delisle’s treachery by intelligence partners in December, 2011. Once looped in, detectives rushed to get warrants to spy on the spy.  The surveillance meant there was zero chance SLt. Delisle could lie his way out of trouble. Police had seen his every keystroke. “You type, ‘I love you,’ I see, ‘I love you,’ ” Sgt. Moffat made a point of saying during the interview. “You erase, ‘I love you,’ – I still see, ‘I love you.’ ”
> 
> “Love” was used hypothetically. But, as it turned out, love was the key to cracking the psyche of SLt. Delisle, who had tried to be cagey for as long as he could in the interrogation.  Police knew he was not paid a princely sum for the secrets. Money transfers showed he got only $3,000 a month. And while the GRU had issued veiled threats to keep SLt. Delisle working, that wouldn’t explain why he had turned in the first place.
> 
> Sgt. Moffat applied a classic interrogation technique, probing to see if a bruised ego could have been the trigger.  “Something went wrong Jeff. You went through a lot of pain,” Sgt. Moffat said.  “A lot of pain,” he replied.  The word “pain” triggered memories of his wife cheating. The intelligence officer confided to Sgt. Moffat that the infidelity had made him suicidal.
> 
> “I wanted to die, but I can’t leave my children,” SLt. Delisle said. So he settled on the next best thing.  “I committed professional suicide. That’s what I did.”  And that was why, he said, on a day in 2007, he put on his civilian clothes, went to Charlotte Street in Ottawa, and entered the Russian embassy to offer his services.  “I was devastated,” he said. “Crushed to no end.”
> 
> Somehow, in the muddled mind of the mole, his indiscretions were the lesser betrayal. Yet, he knew full well the global consequences.  “This is going to blow up like a powder keg,” SLt. Delisle said as the RCMP interview wrapped up.
> 
> More Related to this Story
> espionage The Delisle case an intelligence breach Ottawa would rather just forget
> 
> Russian ambassador dismisses importance of confessed Canadian spy
> 
> MILITARY SCANDAL Bankruptcy kept Delisle’s spy activity a secret from ex-wife
> 
> How Canadian spy Jeffrey Delisle betrayed his country for cash
> 
> HISTORY An echo of espionage from more than 20 years ago
> 
> NATIONAL SECURITY Naval intelligence officer sold military secrets to Russia for $3,000 a month
> 
> Confessed spy Jeffrey Delisle will keep rank and pay, for now
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/so-dead-inside-how-the-mounties-cracked-jeffrey-delisle/article4630144/


----------



## Journeyman

The article just reaffirms where "sympathy" lies in the dictionary.   :


----------



## Jarnhamar

> “I wanted to die, but I can’t leave my children,” SLt. Delisle said. So he settled on the next best thing.  “I committed professional suicide. That’s what I did.”



I wonder if assholes who do this kinda stuff realize the fall out that happens to their families and especially kids.

What a legacy to leave his kids. Getting bullied in school, called traitor, harassed.

I hope his kids don't kill themselves because of it.


----------



## cupper

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I wonder if assholes who do this kinda stuff realize the fall out that happens to their families and especially kids.
> 
> What a legacy to leave his kids. Getting bullied in school, called traitor, harassed.
> 
> I hope his kids don't kill themselves because of it.



 :goodpost:

Hopefully the family will take steps to minimize the effects of the travesty that has been unleashed upon them. Legal name change, relocation, and therapy for starters.

Suicide is a selfish act in and of itself, but somehow this goes beyond. Wouldn't seeking help or psychological treatment have been a better option? Fear of risking your security clearance and career by seeking help seems to be a little ironic, don't you think?


----------



## Remius

When my wife cheated on me, betraying my country and fellow soldiers wasn't even on the radar.  In fact it was the opposite.  I found support through shared experience, humour, comeraderie and support amongst my peers.  The kind of support I couldn't find anywhere else.  He could have had that as well but scum does not get alomg with most things.

While i can empathise with his experience, I cannot sympathise with his actions or his current situation.  His excuses are weak and frankly stupid.  He had so many options yet chose to do what he did.  Besides, he's using that as an excuse but I truly doubt that is what drove him to do what he did.  He's scum and that is what scum does.


----------



## Maxadia

> Canada's most active spy might have been caught almost a year sooner if the military and CSIS had followed their own mandatory security check rules, documents obtained by CBC News show.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/11/29/spy-delisle-warrants.html

CBC witch hunt, anyone?


----------



## busconductor

If you had researched in open source, the damage assessment by all security agencies like the RCMP, CSIS, CSE was categorized to be GRAVE. They include CF codes and cipher keys. Which means that the Russians were reading our minds. Well, hopefully CF learned a lesson. My file application for Intelligence Analyst has been sitting for 5 years and I have security clearance. Any speculations from people out there?


----------



## PuckChaser

Especially considering if they saw the government was putting more money into personnel to conduct the security clearance checks faster, they'd be up in arms about wasting money.


----------



## busconductor

Crantor said:
			
		

> When my wife cheated on me, betraying my country and fellow soldiers wasn't even on the radar.  In fact it was the opposite.  I found support through shared experience, humour, comeraderie and support amongst my peers.  The kind of support I couldn't find anywhere else.  He could have had that as well but scum does not get alomg with most things.
> 
> While i can empathise with his experience, I cannot sympathise with his actions or his current situation.  His excuses are weak and frankly stupid.  He had so many options yet chose to do what he did.  Besides, he's using that as an excuse but I truly doubt that is what drove him to do what he did.  He's scum and that is what scum does.



Putting the law on one's hands is the work of the mob whom communist and terrorist leaders encourage to do violent acts. I admire the way you were able to control yourself. Philippine laws used to allow the murder of man with whom a wife cheats in flagrante delicto which means "caught in the act". Alienating somebody's spouse can be grounds for torts and damages lawsuit which according to the latest Supreme Court reports awarded  at least 200 thousand dollars to the victim. I am not fomenting you to do this. But to show how sensible and logical I am, so many ladies invite me to cheat on their husbands. I don't bite..I cannot afford 200 thousand dollars.


----------



## George Wallace

busconductor said:
			
		

> ........ My file application for Intelligence Analyst has been sitting for 5 years and I have security clearance.



I'll bite.

Out of curiousity, what Clearance do you hold and with whom?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

op:


----------



## Journeyman

busconductor said:
			
		

> .... the Russians were reading our minds.


 Well _that_ should give Yuri and Ivan a whole shit-load of WTF-moments!   :nod:




			
				busconductor said:
			
		

> Any speculations from people out there?


I normally wouldn't offer conjecture, but since *you* requested speculation.....

I _believe_ that you're massively delusional, spend a lot of time surfing conspiracy websites, live with your mother, and have _at least_ two windows covered with tinfoil.

But again, that's merely speculation.   :dunno:


----------



## cupper

It does clear up  somewhat some of the discrepancies I noted earlier with the timeline, and how some it may have been missed.


----------



## jollyjacktar

:rofl:   :Tin-Foil-Hat:  300+ inbound Journeyman


----------



## Scott

doubts concur,

contact me immediately for work in remote north.

you can call mum from there

nanu nanu


----------



## Maxadia

busconductor said:
			
		

> My file application for Intelligence Analyst has been sitting for 5 years and I have security clearance. Any speculations from people out there?



Speculation is that no...the Russians will not hire you yet.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Oh, man my sides are hurting.  JM's post and the _Nanu Nanu_ from Scott.

 :rofl:


----------



## busconductor

Mr. Bristow brags about his credentials. I don't. Even if my reputation is at stake. Delisle who is one of yours, is on the witness stand. Not I.  Yes, I f***dled a Russian but does that implicate me? Due process, journeymen..


----------



## GAP

> Quote from: busconductor on Today at 10:14:47
> 
> ........ My file application for Intelligence Analyst has been sitting for 5 years and I have security clearance.



minor comparison, but it only took 3 months for my level 2


oh, a WTF moment....what if that only clears me for being a busconductor? anyone....bueller?


----------



## busconductor

I would not argue my case with you. You are high ranking officers in the Canadian Army and all I want is to be in the reserves. I also hope I pass medical and the interview. I don't even wanted to be Intelligence Analyst. I just want to know if what I did in my workplace works too in Canadian Forces: putting a Russian spy as Manager of Human Resources.


----------



## The Bread Guy

busconductor said:
			
		

> Putting the law on one's hands is the work of the mob whom communist and terrorist leaders encourage to do violent acts. I admire the way you were able to control yourself. Philippine laws used to allow the murder of man with whom a wife cheats in flagrante delicto which means "caught in the act". Alienating somebody's spouse can be grounds for torts and damages lawsuit which according to the latest Supreme Court reports awarded  at least 200 thousand dollars to the victim. I am not fomenting you to do this. But to show how sensible and logical I am, so many ladies invite me to cheat on their husbands. I don't bite..I cannot afford 200 thousand dollars.


busconductor - more reading, less posting for you for a bit.

Everyone else, back to the topic at hand, please, and thanks.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Maxadia

> Navy struggles to explain deleted intelligence slides
> 
> Electronic records detailing the planned overhaul of Canadian naval intelligence — created when admitted Russian spy Jeffrey Delisle was at the height of his treachery — were deleted from a National Defence database.
> 
> Two PowerPoint slide presentations, aimed at explaining the overhaul to intelligence analysts on both the east and west coasts, were reported destroyed when copies were requested earlier this year by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> Military officials described the deletions as a clerical error.
> 
> But when the news agency asked why both the electronic and paper copies had been expunged, and whether that violated access-to-information law, the navy eventually reversed itself and claimed some copies of the presentations had survived in email accounts of officers serving overseas.
> 
> The confusion over the handling of the records alarms defence and intelligence experts.
> 
> "We should be asking questions, absolutely," said retired colonel and military law expert Michel Drapeau.
> 
> "I mean, naval intelligence goes to the security of the country, security of people, of our Armed Forces. They are issues of national interest."
> 
> Questions about the deletion of the PowerPoint presentations come at time when the military's entire handling of sensitive data is under scrutiny.
> 
> Last week, court records released in the Delisle case showed the naval officer retained top secret access even though his security clearance had lapsed and that prior screenings had failed to pick up red flags in his personal life.
> 
> Delisle had been working at HMCS Trinity, a top secret intelligence centre in Halifax, when he was arrested last January for passing highly classified information over to Russia over a five year period. He pleaded guilty in October.
> 
> Deletion raises concerns, say experts
> The deletion of the electronic briefings on changes to naval intelligence adds to concerns raised by the Delisle case.
> 
> "You would want all intelligence documents and briefings to be handled carefully," said Wesley Wark, an intelligence expert at the University of Toronto.
> 
> "It's not just handling, but archiving and preservation of sensitive documents. It goes to the heart of what an intelligence system does. An intelligence system doesn't deal with just current information. It deals with memory and (institutional) capacity."
> 
> Delisle would most certainly have had access to the briefings — which, among other things, compare Canada's naval intelligence capability with its allies, lays out the division of responsibilities under the new system, as well as the number, disposition and function of staff within the beefed-up branch.
> 
> Wark said the navy's actions become even more serious in light of the spy case. While he's prepared to accept it may have been a mistake, the absence of those records from the database might have significance in assessing Delisle's actions.
> 
> "You have a security breach of significant consequence on your hands, you want to be able to discover just what a person conducting a security breach might have had access to in order to be able to assess the damage, and that's a tricky business, but it's absolutely crucial," he said.
> 
> The navy has given several contradictory explanations as to why staff initially destroyed the records and whether they had authority to do so.
> 
> Exceptions made for draft records
> At first, officials said informally it was allowed because the documents were not signed and therefore not considered "official" — something Drapeau dismissed as a "silly" explanation.
> 
> "You have to ask what was the compelling reason for you to destroy — whether it was authorized or not — these documents which would very clearly have an historic value," he said.
> 
> Federal law, under the Library and Archives Act, requires departments to hold on to such briefing material because of its historical value and mandates officials to seek permission from the chief archivist if the materials are to be destroyed. Exceptions are made for draft records that do not leave the custody of the person who wrote it.
> 
> Similarly, the federal Treasury Board has a policy that requires briefing materials to be maintained. The Access to Information and Privacy Act requires documents to be retained, as well.
> 
> When The Canadian Press started asking questions last March, an internal National Defence email trail shows the navy's information manager justified the destruction by saying "they were draft documents never communicated beyond the author."
> 
> In fact, the presentations were given to the Acoustic Data Analysis Centre at Canadian Forces Base Esquimalt, B.C. and HMCS Trinity, the all-source fusion intelligence centre in Halifax where Delisle was caught spying.
> 
> The March 13, 2012 email also said the material in the briefing was pulled from a "master document that was approved and presented to (Commander Royal Canadian Navy)."
> 
> Document eventually recovered
> Asked about the contradiction last week, the navy acknowledged the explanation was wrong.
> 
> "The briefing deck provided to Trinity, drafted by multiple authors, was written to facilitate staff level discussion, which provided input to a Commander Royal Canadian Navy decision brief," Lt.-Cmdr. Hubert Genest said in an email statement.
> 
> "As a result of a misunderstanding of the Treasury Board policy & Library and Archives Canada rules by a member of Naval Staff Headquarters, the document was removed from the document management system, but when the error was discovered, the document was recovered and put back on the system."
> 
> Extensively censored copies of the presentations, and the overall Naval Intelligence Roadmap, were released to The Canadian Press on Nov. 19.
> 
> Had the navy not restored the briefings, Drapeau said it would have broken both the archives law as well as Treasury Board policy. And had it not eventually released them, the navy could have been accused of obstruction under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> Wark said the contents of the briefings would have been of particular interest to the Russians because, while they didn't expose potential sources, they did provide an organizational framework and insight into how Canada was beefing up its intelligence apparatus.
> 
> The government has refused to discuss what sort of information Delisle siphoned off.
> 
> Previously released court documents show the Harper government is still trying to assess how badly Delisle compromised the country's intelligence apparatus. But the country's international electronic eavesdropping service, the Communications Security Establishment, has acknowledged the damage was high.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2012/12/03/ns-delisle-deleted-documents.html


----------



## jollyjacktar

Bruce McKinnon cartoon Halifax Chronicle Herald 2 Dec 2012


----------



## Maxadia

I miss Bruce's daily cartoons.  Have to save a link somewhere sometime.   ;D


----------



## 57Chevy

Shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Apart from sentencing I suspect he'll be stripped (of not much) also.


Judge to determine fate of Halifax navy spy who sold secrets to Russia
08 Feb

The Canadian Press 

HALIFAX - A Halifax navy intelligence officer will be sentenced later today for selling secrets to Russia.

Sub-Lt. Jeffrey Paul Delisle pleaded guilty last year to breach of trust and communicating information to a foreign entity that could harm Canada's interests.

The Crown is seeking a prison sentence of at least 20 years, while the defence is asking for nine to 10 years.

Both agreed that Delisle should be fined $111,817, which was based on the amount of money Delisle collected from his Russian bosses over nearly five years.

The 41-year-old Delisle was arrested in January 2012 and became the first person to be charged under the Security of Information Act.

That law was passed following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.

Mike Taylor, Delisle's lawyer, has said he is surprised that intelligence officials haven't tried to learn more about what type of information he leaked to Russia.

But intelligence experts suggest that Delisle's lawyer wasn't approached because government insiders already know much of what he released after walking into Russia's embassy in Ottawa in July 2007 to offer his services.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Aside from the actual sentence, I think it would also be appropriate for the individual to be stripped of his Commission.   :2c:


----------



## Monsoon

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Mike Taylor, Delisle's lawyer, has said he is surprised that intelligence officials haven't tried to learn more about what type of information he leaked to Russia.


I.e. he's surprised that he wasn't able to strike a plea-bargain in exchange for his client's "cooperation". Fortunately for the crown, his client made it amply clear in his initial interview with the police that he didn't have the slightest idea what information he passed to the Russians - he just mass-downloaded some stuff and handed it over. I suspect the Russians are still trying to comb through it themselves.


----------



## Journeyman

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I.e. he's surprised that he wasn't able to strike a plea-bargain in exchange for his client's "cooperation".


Good call.


----------



## observor 69

The Globe and Mail

Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle has been sentenced to 20 years in prison for spying.

Nova Scotia’s Chief Judge of the Provincial Court, Patrick Curran, handed down the sentence this afternoon.

SLt. Delisle will serve 18 years, five months, accounting for time served.

The naval officer will also be fined about $111,000, the amount of money he received from the Russians since 2007.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/navy-spy-sentenced-to-20-years/article8390425/


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

So, based on my calculations, as long as he says he's sorry to the parole board, he'll be out on day parole is just over a year.
The only thing working againsnt him is "fame",....parole board doesn't like that pesky media caring about whom they let out.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> So, based on my calculations, as long as he says he's sorry to the parole board, he'll be out on day parole is just over a year.
> The only thing working againsnt him is "fame",....parole board doesn't like that pesky media caring about whom they let out.



I thought you had to serve a certain number of years ( e.g. one-third of your sentence) before you were eligible for parole?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

1/3 is provincial....


----------



## The Bread Guy

What the CDS says.....


> “Today, the Canadian Armed Forces have entered one of the final stages in the process dealing with the odious behaviour of Sub-Lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle.
> 
> “A critical foundation of our intelligence mission is the mutual trust we have forged with our allies, and other intergovernmental and international partners. This is the bedrock of our mutual defence and security. Through his own admission, Sub-Lieutenant Delisle violated that trust, not only with our partners, but also with the people with whom he worked on a daily basis, and with the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole. The protection of our sources and our methods is critical to their effectiveness in the utilization of intelligence as a means of protecting our country and Canadians. Moreover, the unauthorized and unlawful disclosure of allied intelligence products has the potential to adversely impact Canada’s access to intelligence and other sensitive information. As such, through the activities in which he wilfully and deliberately engaged, Sub-Lieutenant Delisle could have placed this country’s security at higher risk. This cannot be overlooked.
> 
> “Sub-Lieutenant Delisle failed each and every Canadian. With that said, I want to assure Canadians that we are actively pursuing measures to improve and enhance all facets of our security procedures. This includes undertaking a complete functional review and rewrite of the defence security policy suite, a realignment of all aspects of security in the Department, and working with other government departments to discuss, synchronize, and adopt best practices.
> 
> “The Canadian Armed Forces hold their members to a very high standard of conduct and performance, in Canada or abroad, on or off military duty. All personnel handling sensitive information are expected to observe stringent security procedures and are held to the highest ethical standards, consistent with the core military values of loyalty, integrity and honour. Clearly, Sub-Lieutenant Delisle’s actions failed to meet this standard. With the sentencing complete, we can now finalize the administrative review which will determine resultant administrative actions for Sub-Lieutenant Delisle. Given the serious nature of the crimes to which he has pled guilty, and for which he has now been sentenced, a rapid completion of the administrative review has been ordered while still allowing sufficient time for procedural fairness to occur.
> 
> “I have every confidence that this incident is not reflective of the characteristically impeccable performance and dedication of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces, and Canadians can be assured that Sub-Lieutenant Delisle’s actions are, in no way, indicative of the values, ethics, and actions of our members as a whole, or of our commitment to safeguarding their national interests.”


----------



## Tank Troll

Wouldn't 2 years less a day of that sentence be spent in Club Ed?


----------



## jollyjacktar

No it's all civilian jail for him.  Two years in ClubEd would be nice to think of though.


----------



## Tank Troll

Didn't Kyle Brown do 2 less a day on his sentence in Club Ed?


----------



## Pandora114

Doesn't he lose his pension as well?  I thought I read that somewhere...

I hope he does...sucks he's not going to ClubEd.  I think ClubEd is too good for him and needs to be hanged for high treason (sucks we dont' have that anymore)


----------



## Cansky

Tank Troll said:
			
		

> Didn't Kyle Brown do 2 less a day on his sentence in Club Ed?



Yes Kylie did 2 years at DB Edmonton but the difference is that Kylie Brown was court martialed and this idiot was charged in the civilian justice system.  I don't think the civilian judge can send someone to DB .  Any JAG's know for sure?


----------



## OldSolduer

He'll be  PC case.


----------



## garb811

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> Yes Kylie did 2 years at DB Edmonton but the difference is that Kylie Brown was court martialed and this idiot was charged in the civilian justice system.  I don't think the civilian judge can send someone to DB .  Any JAG's know for sure?


You're right, civilian courts do not have the capacity to sentence anyone to the DB.  

QR&Os: Volume II - Chapter 114 General Provisions Respecting Imprisonment And Detention:



> 114.03 – COMMITTING AUTHORITIES
> 
> (1) Subsection 219(1) of the National Defence Act provides:
> 
> "219. (1) The Minister may prescribe or appoint authorities for the purposes of this section and section 220 and, in this section and section 220, an authority prescribed or appointed under this subsection is referred to as a "committing authority"."
> 
> (2) The following authorities may act as committing authorities for the purposes of sections 219 and 220 of the National Defence Act:
> 
> the Minister;
> the Chief of the Defence Staff;
> an officer commanding a command;
> an officer commanding a formation;
> a commanding officer; and
> a military judge.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

He''ll be home before 90% of you guys a new posting.....


----------



## kratz

and after CRA gets ahold of the court documents and "readjusts" his taxes years for that income, plus fines and penalties
Delisle will owe almost 2.3million. 

My math says it will take him 125 years at a minimum wage job, paying 100% of his pay for 35 hours per week to pay this court order off.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Ref: what the CDS said, are we not the "Canadian Forces"?  I thought we dropped the "armed" part a while back?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Ref: what the CDS said, are we not the "Canadian Forces"?  I thought we dropped the "armed" part a while back?


_National Defence Act_ says ....


> .... 14. The Canadian Forces are the armed forces of Her Majesty raised by Canada and consist of one Service called the Canadian Armed Forces ....


Mind you, it refers to the "Canadian Forces" in the rest of the describing the different components bits.  Sounds like "legal name" vs. "everyday" name.


----------



## CombatDoc

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Ref: what the CDS said, are we not the "Canadian Forces"?  I thought we dropped the "armed" part a while back?


The "Armed" is apparently back in vogue, and I have noticed increasing references to CAF vice CF.  I have not yet seen anything official regarding a name change, however.


----------



## garb811

I saw an email to that effect last week.  Trying to recall the originator, might have been the VCDS shop...


----------



## old medic

The Canadian Press
13 Feb 2013
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/navy-spy-who-sold-secrets-to-russia-stripped-of-rank-pay-1.1155543



> OTTAWA - Former naval officer Jeffrey Delisle, who spied for the Russians, has been stripped of his commission and his military service decorations.
> 
> National Defence also announced the former intelligence officer will forfeit his severance pay, and the federal government will move immediately to recover the salary paid to him since his arrest in January 2012.
> 
> Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the actions of Delisle, a former sub-lieutenant, are intolerable and inexcusable.
> 
> Last week, Delisle was sentenced to 20 years in prison after pleading guilty to charges under security-of-information laws for passing top secret information to the Russians over a five-year period.
> 
> It's the second time in just over two years that the Governor General has been asked to revoke the commission of a serving officer.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It's a good start.  I hope they burn his uniforms too.


----------



## jeffb

The real winner here is the guy who took over his job. Pretty hard to screw up that one. "Well, at least you didn't sell secrets to the Russians."


----------



## cupper

jeffb said:
			
		

> The real winner here is the guy who took over his job. Pretty hard to screw up that one. "Well, at least you didn't sell secrets to the Russians."



But he probably has to go to and from his workspace naked. And the daily cavity search would hell.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Info-machine version of the announcement ....


> Upon the recommendation of General Tom Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff, His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada, has approved the release of Jeffery Paul Delisle from the Canadian Armed Forces and has revoked his commission.
> 
> “The unauthorized disclosure of national and allied intelligence is both unconscionable and intolerable.  Mr. Delisle’s actions were clearly not consistent with the high degree of integrity and loyalty to Canada that we, as Canadians, expect from our sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen,” said the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence.  “Following the sentencing on Friday, the Canadian Armed Forces immediately undertook the required and appropriate action to review his file and ensure that all appropriate administrative measures are taken.”
> 
> “Mr. Delisle’s actions were neither excusable nor defensible. He broke the law, violated our core values of integrity and honour, and his actions were reprehensible,” said General Lawson. “He has demonstrated that he is neither worthy of the trust and confidence of the Crown, nor of his country. As a result of his misconduct Mr. Delisle has been released from the Canadian Armed Forces and his commission has been revoked.”
> 
> Mr. Delisle’s release for reasons of “service misconduct” will result in the following additional consequences:
> 
> •Mr. Delisle forfeits his Canadian Forces Decoration (a medal);
> •Mr. Delisle forfeits his entitlement to severance pay; and
> •Action will be taken to recover his pay from the date of his being arrested and taken into custody.
> On behalf of Her Majesty The Queen, the Governor General grants commissions to all officers of the Canadian Armed Forces. These commissions are held at the pleasure of and can be revoked by the Crown.



.... and what the Minister had to say:


> “National and allied intelligence is fundamental in ensuring the safety of Canadians and our Government remains committed to its protection.
> 
> “Mr. Delisle’s unauthorized disclosure of secret information is intolerable, inexcusable and inconsistent with the integrity and loyalty that Canadians expect from their men and women in uniform.
> 
> “Last Friday’s sentencing confirmed that Mr. Delisle not only violated Canadians’ trust, but also broke our laws, and the Canadian Armed Forces undertook an immediate review to determine appropriate consequences to his actions.
> 
> “This review is now finalized and its results are known to Mr. Delisle.
> 
> “Upon the recommendation of General Tom Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff, His Excellency the Right Honourable David Johnston, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada, has approved the release of Jeffrey Paul Delisle from the Canadian Armed Forces and has revoked his commission.
> 
> “In addition, Mr. Delisle will forfeit his Canadian Forces Decoration, and his entitlement to severance pay. The Department of National Defence will also take the appropriate action to recover Mr. Delisle’s pay from the date of his arrest to the current day.
> 
> “I assure Canadians that our Government continues to enhance our security procedures. In recent years, the Department of National Defence has undertaken a complete functional review and rewrite of our security policy suite and has been working with other department bodies to synchronize and adopt best practices.  In October 2012, we established a Director General Security Transformation organization aimed at charting the future for defence security policy."


----------



## agc

Navy spy eligible for conditional release in 3 years



> The Parole Board of Canada says a former Halifax naval officer convicted of spying for Russia is eligible for conditional release in three years.
> 
> Jeffrey Paul Delisle was sentenced to 20 years in prison after pleading guilty to charges under security-of-information laws for passing top secret information to Russia over a five-year period..
> 
> But the judge presiding over his case ruled that when time already served is taken into account, Delisle's sentence is 18 years and five months.
> 
> The parole board said Delisle becomes eligible for unescorted temporary leaves in March 2016 and day parole in September 2018.
> 
> He is eligible for full parole a year later.
> 
> A decision on whether Delisle would be granted parole is made by the board after a review of his case or a hearing.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Jeffrey Delisle, the former Halifax naval officer who sold secrets to Russia, will not appeal his sentence.
> 
> He is serving 20 years in prison. He received credit for the 1½ years he spent in custody after his arrest.
> 
> Now, his lawyer, Mike Taylor, says his client will not appeal.
> 
> He said it would be difficult to convince an appeal court the judge made an error in law.
> 
> "It's not essentially another kick at the can. It's something where you have to point out a mistake has been made. I think the chances would be remote. Based on a number of discussions about those reasons, Mr. Delisle has instructed me he doesn't want to appeal," said Taylor ....


CBC.ca, 8 Mar 13


----------



## GAP

CSIS knew of convicted navy spy’s activity but held file back from RCMP
Jim Bronskill and Murray Brewster  The Canadian Press  Sunday, May. 26 2013
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/csis-knew-of-convicted-navy-spys-activity-but-held-file-back-from-rcmp/article12158482/

Canada’s spy agency clandestinely watched a navy officer pass top secret information to Russia for months without briefing the RCMP – a previously unknown operation that raises questions about whether Jeffrey Delisle could have been arrested sooner.

The Canadian Press has learned that the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation alerted the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to Delisle’s illicit dealings with Moscow well before the Mounties took on the file in December, 2011, and later brought him into custody.

CSIS ultimately decided not to transfer its thick Delisle dossier to the RCMP. The spy agency, acting on legal advice, opted to keep its investigation sealed for fear of exposing a trove of Canadian and U.S. secrets of the intelligence trade in open court proceedings.

In a bizarre twist, it fell to the FBI – not CSIS – to send a letter to the RCMP spelling out how a Canadian was pilfering extremely sensitive information, including highly classified U.S. material.

The RCMP had to start its own investigation of Delisle almost from scratch. The delay alarmed and frustrated Washington as the geyser of secrets continued to spew.

At one point the Americans, eager to see Delisle in handcuffs, sketched out a Plan B: luring the Canadian officer to the U.S. and arresting him themselves, perhaps during a stop-over en route to a Caribbean vacation.

The RCMP and CSIS are supposed to be able to “seamlessly hand off cases back and forth between them,” said intelligence historian Wesley Wark, a visiting professor at the University of Ottawa’s graduate school of public and international affairs.

He said “it is deeply troubling” if the system indeed broke down in the Delisle case over CSIS’s refusal to share its files or to bring the RCMP in at an early stage.

“I think that’s scandalous, in fact,” said Wark, who served as an expert witness at Delisle’s sentencing. “And it would be a matter, I think, for a judicial inquiry or certainly a serious parliamentary investigation.”
more on link


----------



## jollyjacktar

Bunch of friggin wankers.  At least the ones I had dealings with were wankers...  we're our own worst enemy sometimes.


----------



## Edward Campbell

More on the Jeffrey Delisle case, especially regarding CSIS/RCMP non-cooperation in this report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/csis-knew-of-convicted-navy-spys-activity-but-held-file-back-from-rcmp/article12158482/#dashboard/follows/


> CSIS knew of convicted navy spy’s activity but held file back from RCMP
> 
> JIM BRONSKILL AND MURRAY BREWSTER
> OTTAWA — The Canadian Press
> 
> Published Sunday, May. 26 2013
> 
> Canada’s spy agency clandestinely watched a navy officer pass top secret information to Russia for months without briefing the RCMP – a previously unknown operation that raises questions about whether Jeffrey Delisle could have been arrested sooner.
> 
> The Canadian Press has learned that the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation alerted the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to Delisle’s illicit dealings with Moscow well before the Mounties took on the file in December, 2011, and later brought him into custody.
> 
> CSIS ultimately decided not to transfer its thick Delisle dossier to the RCMP. The spy agency, acting on legal advice, opted to keep its investigation sealed for fear of exposing a trove of Canadian and U.S. secrets of the intelligence trade in open court proceedings.
> 
> In a bizarre twist, it fell to the FBI – not CSIS – to send a letter to the RCMP spelling out how a Canadian was pilfering extremely sensitive information, including highly classified U.S. material.
> 
> The RCMP had to start its own investigation of Delisle almost from scratch. The delay alarmed and frustrated Washington as the geyser of secrets continued to spew.
> 
> At one point the Americans, eager to see Delisle in handcuffs, sketched out a Plan B: luring the Canadian officer to the U.S. and arresting him themselves, perhaps during a stop-over en route to a Caribbean vacation.
> 
> The RCMP and CSIS are supposed to be able to “seamlessly hand off cases back and forth between them,” said intelligence historian Wesley Wark, a visiting professor at the University of Ottawa’s graduate school of public and international affairs.
> 
> He said “it is deeply troubling” if the system indeed broke down in the Delisle case over CSIS’s refusal to share its files or to bring the RCMP in at an early stage.
> 
> “I think that’s scandalous, in fact,” said Wark, who served as an expert witness at Delisle’s sentencing. “And it would be a matter, I think, for a judicial inquiry or certainly a serious parliamentary investigation.”
> 
> According to Delisle’s lawyer, it also flags important legal concerns about the government’s obligation to disclose all of the evidence against someone charged with breaching national security.
> 
> An investigation by The Canadian Press, drawing on multiple sources familiar with the Delisle case, reveals that CSIS was deeply involved in the file before the Mounties entered the picture. Several sources spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case publicly.
> 
> The RCMP arrested Delisle, now 42, on Jan. 13, 2012, for violating the Security of Information Act. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 20 years in prison last February. Delisle had given secret material to Russia in exchange for upward of $110,000 over a period of more than four years.
> 
> Until now the official story – as revealed through the court record – has suggested the FBI first tipped Canadian authorities to Delisle’s relationship with the Russians on Dec. 2, 2011, via the letter to the RCMP.
> 
> But the story actually begins months earlier.
> 
> Senior CSIS officials were called to Washington where U.S. security personnel told them a navy officer in Halifax was receiving cash transfers from Russian agents. One of the paymasters was Mary Larkin, a known pseudonym used by Russian intelligence in running a U.S. spy ring – busted by the FBI in 2010 – that included the glamorous Anna Chapman and several others.
> 
> CSIS soon obtained court approval to begin electronic surveillance of Delisle.
> 
> Despondent over his failed marriage and nursing financial woes, Delisle decided in 2007 to commit “professional suicide,” as he would later put it, by walking into the Russian embassy in Ottawa and volunteering to offer up some of western intelligence’s most valuable secrets.
> 
> He spied for the Russians while working in sensitive posts at National Defence headquarters, including the military’s nerve centre, the Strategic Joint Staff, and at the office of the Chief of Defence Intelligence.
> 
> As a sub-lieutenant at the Trinity intelligence centre in Halifax, Delisle had access to a data bank of classified secrets shared by the Five Eyes community – Canada, the United States, Britain, Australia and New Zealand.
> 
> It soon became clear to CSIS that Delisle was handing over a great deal of highly sensitive material originating from the United States.
> 
> “The information he gave up caused grave damage – grave damage – to the U.S.,” said one source.
> 
> “We’re getting into the category of sources, techniques and methods of the most sensitive nature.”
> 
> Pressure on the Canadians began to build as American patience eroded. The FBI director and senior U.S. justice officials called counterparts in Canada.
> 
> “There was a very small subset of information provided by Delisle that impacted a couple of other of the Five Eyes, but it paled in comparison to the volume and gravity of the U.S. information he gave up,” said the source.
> 
> In mid-September, 2011, Delisle was summoned to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to meet one of his Russian handlers.
> 
> But it wasn’t Delisle’s obvious lack of a vacation tan that prompted Canada Border Services Agency officials to submit him to a secondary search upon his return. CSIS had tipped the border agency to Delisle’s pending arrival at the Halifax airport in a bid to gather more evidence for the case against him.
> 
> During its search, the border agency discovered a Rio hotel receipt, more than $6,500 in cash – most of it new $100 American bills – and pre-paid credit cards.
> 
> After reviewing the case, CSIS lawyers said handing the spy service’s file to the RCMP would pose the risk that both U.S. and Canadian secrets – investigative sources and methods – might be disclosed in criminal court as part of the requirement to ensure a fair trial.
> 
> During a meeting in Ottawa, CSIS, the FBI and RCMP discussed the possibility of arresting Delisle in the United States during an airport stopover, or by arranging a U.S. military secondment or training course for him. However, it was decided jointly that the FBI would send a letter to the RCMP about the case.
> 
> It almost “shocks the conscience” that an American agency had to formally notify the Mounties, said a source who spoke out of concern about what they see as systemic flaws in Canada’s intelligence apparatus that allowed Delisle to peddle secrets longer than necessary.
> 
> “CSIS had already made the case. But RCMP had to do it again.”
> 
> As the Mounties investigated, the junior intelligence officer continued to pass information to the Russians that was “as damaging or more damaging” than earlier packages uncovered during the CSIS probe, one source said.
> 
> Another source with knowledge of the investigation said ideally the Canadian Forces would have detected Delisle’s actions and told CSIS.
> 
> “CSIS should have helped them [the Forces] to investigate a little bit more,” said the source. “Eventually when they collected enough evidence, we say, ‘We’ve got a criminal case here,’ then we go to the RCMP and we let the RCMP prepare the criminal case from the investigation.”
> 
> Delisle’s lawyer, Mike Taylor, said he knew nothing of a prequel investigation by CSIS and found the revelation “disturbing,” adding that it raises serious questions about whether his client’s charter rights were violated, and how the Canadian government pursues national security investigations.
> 
> “I’ve always had concerns about what was going on behind the scenes,” Taylor said in an interview.
> 
> The existence of the spy service investigation and the resulting document trail should have been part of the court record, Taylor said, and had he known about them it would have affected the advice given to his client.
> 
> In the end, Delisle might still have pleaded guilty, Taylor said, but nevertheless he should have been given the “opportunity to chase back and determine whether information was obtained unlawfully.”
> 
> For example, the search conducted by border agents upon Delisle’s return from Brazil could have been deemed “tainted,” unreasonable and “subject to exclusion” in light of the CSIS investigation, he said.
> 
> “It certainly could have changed the timing [of Delisle’s response] because he might not have been so quick to go ahead and say, ‘OK, look, I’m done.’” There is no possibility of an appeal and Taylor said he understands there’s little public sympathy for someone who has admitted to selling out his country, but he argues the government has a legal obligation to disclose everything it knows to an accused.
> 
> “They cannot be allowed to operate under that kind of a covert veil,” Taylor said. “The potential for civil rights violations is huge.”
> 
> CSIS was created in 1984 from the ashes of the old RCMP Security Service, which was disbanded following a series of headline-grabbing scandals. The new spy service would gather information and advise the federal government of security threats, but have no arrest powers.
> 
> It has meant that CSIS must hand over a case to the RCMP or work in parallel with the Mounties, then pass along the file when it comes time to take suspected spies or terrorists into custody.
> 
> But it hasn’t always gone smoothly.
> 
> The infamous case of the 1985 Air India airliner bombing is often cited as the most obvious failure to forge a well-oiled working relationship between the agencies.
> 
> Steps have been taken in recent years to encourage closer co-operation between CSIS and the RCMP.
> 
> In response to recommendations of a 2010 federal inquiry report on the Air India attack, the Conservative government began reviewing the process of disclosure in court proceedings involving national security.
> 
> The RCMP and CSIS are “developing best practices to ensure that the disclosure of intelligence in the context of criminal investigations occurs in the most expeditious and efficient manner,” said a federal update on the process last July.
> 
> At a Senate committee hearing in February, then-CSIS director Dick Fadden expressed confidence in the procedures.
> 
> “With the RCMP, we have developed a policy and practice called ‘one vision,’” Fadden said. “We put all this in a document with illustrations from case law that the courts have developed. My sense is that it is working pretty well.”
> 
> Both CSIS and the RCMP had no comment on the spy service’s involvement in the Delisle file. The FBI did not respond to a request to discuss the case, and it would not release any information in response to a Freedom of Information Act application, citing Delisle’s privacy rights.
> 
> The Canadian Press asked Fadden after the February committee hearing about the timing of CSIS’s awareness of the Delisle case, but he declined to answer. Fadden recently became deputy minister of defence.
> 
> Michel Coulombe, CSIS’s deputy director of operations, refused to speak with the news agency. He has since become the spy agency’s interim director.




I'll wait for the legal and security/intelligence experts to comment.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Does CSIS not have power of arrest?


----------



## PuckChaser

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Does CSIS not have power of arrest?



I don't think they're the Secret Police. They appear to be strictly investigative, and the RCMP does the handcuffing.


----------



## Sig_Des

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Does CSIS not have power of arrest?



Nope

http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/bts/fq-eng.asp#bm10b



> While life at CSIS has its moments, the work of intelligence officers bears little resemblance to how it is portrayed on television. The Border, for example, *suggests that CSIS can arrest or detain people. CSIS, in fact, does not have the power to do either*. The same show suggests CSIS can arbitrarily raid or seize material. CSIS requires warrants to conduct any such intrusive activities. Likewise, CSIS has extremely strict protocols governing how it shares information with other countries and how that information can be used. These protocols have been reviewed by both the SIRC and the Arar Commission of Inquiry.


----------



## cupper

When the Government broke up the so called "Dirty Tricks" squad back in the 70's and the subsequent separation of the Espionage /  Counter Espionage functions from the RCMP mandate, it was determined that the new entity that was to become CSIS should not be given powers of arrest. 

When CSIS had developed a case sufficiently for carrying out an arrest, the file would be given or shared with the RCMP in order to carry out the arrest.

The other thing to remember is that not all of CSIS's investigative work will end in an arrest.


----------



## The Bread Guy

What jumps out at me is this bit ....


> .... CSIS ultimately decided not to transfer its thick Delisle dossier to the RCMP. The spy agency, *acting on legal advice*, opted to keep its investigation sealed for fear of exposing a trove of Canadian and U.S. secrets of the intelligence trade in open court proceedings ....


Gotta wonder how the lawyers weighed the risks of revelation via open court vs. letting buddy continue - assuming those were the only other options available.


----------



## George Wallace

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> More on the Jeffrey Delisle case, especially regarding CSIS/RCMP non-cooperation in this report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/csis-knew-of-convicted-navy-spys-activity-but-held-file-back-from-rcmp/article12158482/#dashboard/follows/
> 
> I'll wait for the legal and security/intelligence experts to comment.



That article reeks of incompetence on the part of CSIS.  There should have been NO excuse why they could not pass information on to the RCMP.  Is just shows shoddy and lazy practice on the part of the CSIS agents.  That, or even worse, perhaps they are not properly trained and qualified to perform their duties as members of Canada's civilian intelligence agency.  Intelligence products are edited versions of the information collected, designed to protect their sources.  There is absolutely no reason that CSIS could not provide the RCMP an Intelligence package that would warrant the arrest of Delisle.


----------



## Jed

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That article reeks of incompetence on the part of CSIS.  There should have been NO excuse why they could not pass information on to the RCMP.  Is just shows shoddy and lazy practice on the part of the CSIS agents.  That, or even worse, perhaps they are not properly trained and qualified to perform their duties as members of Canada's civilian intelligence agency.  Intelligence products are edited versions of the information collected, designed to protect their sources.  There is absolutely no reason that CSIS could not provide the RCMP an Intelligence package that would warrant the arrest of Delisle.



The only thing good I have ever heard about CSIS was on the fictional TV shows. Things have been pretty frigged up ever since its conception after the RCMP lost this part of their erstwhile mandate.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> .... There is absolutely no reason that CSIS could not provide the RCMP an Intelligence package that would warrant the arrest of Delisle.


Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if _that's_ ATIP'able?


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> George Wallace said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... There is absolutely no reason that CSIS could not provide the RCMP an Intelligence package that would warrant the arrest of Delisle.
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if _that's_ ATIP'able?
Click to expand...


There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk adverse" legal advisors.  A competent intelligence analyst could have easily written an "Intelligence Product" that had the necessary facts for those that needed to know (RCMP), in order for them make an arrest.  There is no need to 'specifically' identify sources.  There is no need to divulge large amounts of information collected, some, or a lot of it, irrelevant.   Not to have passed on information/intelligence to the RSMP defeats the whole existence of this organization.  It means that they are a "toothless" agency of the government, and a waste of taxpayer's dollars.   Someone has to really get their shyte together.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> .... There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk averse" legal advisors .... *Someone has to really get their shyte together.*


Agreed - big time.


----------



## J.J

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if _that's_ ATIP'able?
> 
> 
> There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk adverse" legal advisors.  A competent intelligence analyst could have easily written an "Intelligence Product" that had the necessary facts for those that needed to know (RCMP), in order for them make an arrest.  There is no need to 'specifically' identify sources.  There is no need to divulge large amounts of information collected, some, or a lot of it, irrelevant.   Not to have passed on information/intelligence to the RSMP defeats the whole existence of this organization.  It means that they are a "toothless" agency of the government, and a waste of taxpayer's dollars.   Someone has to really get their shyte together.



George,
I think you are failing to recognize CSIS's role, they are not peace officers and do not follow the Canada Evidence Act in the collection of information. CSIS collects information "differently" than traditional law enforcement agencies, example in that they gather information from foreign sources and governments that do not follow the same rules as we do. A lot of information gathered by CSIS would not be admissible in court. When CSIS refers something to the RCMP, it has to follow very strict protocols, without giving evidence or direction to the RCMP.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-spikes-child-porn-case-against-muslim-preacher-targeted-by-csis/article4328332/

What CSIS does is to identify and disrupt organizations that are of national security concerns. I don't know why they didn't notify the RCMP earlier, but I believe identifying foreign intelligence operatives and their network might have been a mitigating factor.


----------



## George Wallace

WR said:
			
		

> .............. When CSIS refers something to the RCMP, it has to follow very strict protocols, without giving evidence or direction to the RCMP.
> 
> ............... I don't know why they didn't notify the RCMP earlier, but I believe identifying foreign intelligence operatives and their network might have been a mitigating factor.




All intelligence gathering organizations have to follow strict protocols to protect their 'sources'.   That is a given.  They can still produce an Intelligence Product that can be disseminated to those that need to know, ie. the RCMP.  They failed to do so.  Saying that they did not want to identify foreign intelligence operators and their network is a red herring.  They would not have done so in the first place, as that would not have been in any way, shape or form protecting a source(s).


----------



## J.J

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Have you read any of this yet?  As already stated several times; there is no need for them to have revealed a "trove of Canadian and U.S. secrets of the intelligence trade".  Competent Intelligence Operators/Analysts are quite capable of protecting their "sources" and craft.  An intelligence product passed to the RCMP should have been a very simple matter.  As stated, there is no requirement to give the RCMP a mountain of paper.  Only the relevant information needed to be shared.  This was an "Epic Fail".



There is something in the collection of evidence call the "fruit of the poisonous tree", if the courts believe the information was collected not according to the law, all information, evidence etc that benefited from that information is not admissible. Many cases have fallen because of this issue. 
I don't disagree that it is a common practice for agencies to disclose their human source information, but you must "source it back". Meaning you have to explain how your source came to know this information, if the information was collected illegally or would identify your source, you don't use it. An example would be, if CSIS was talking to country X and country X does not need legislative authorities for wiretaps or has a history of torture etc, that information cannot be used as evidence in a Canadian court. 




(Edited to reflect correct person who is quoted.)


----------



## cupper

On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.

Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?


----------



## Retired AF Guy

cupper said:
			
		

> On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.
> 
> Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?



Remember this was the first time anyone has been charged under the SIA. I would suspect that the legal-beagles wanted to have all their ducks-in-a-role before they proceeded with the case. 

Still, it doesn't explain why they didn't bring the RCMP in right-away.  After all, if this guy was selling secrets like everyone says he was, you don't want to waste any time before arresting him.


----------



## dapaterson

cupper said:
			
		

> On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.
> 
> Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?



Hmm... not quite the way I'd describe the CSIS personnel I've known.  Or, in other words, You don't know Jack.

Given the folks I know, it would not surprise me at all if CSIS verbally requested the FBI to tip off the RCMP.  Very non-ATIP-able (if that's a word); meets the need; and protects what they've done from a defence attorney requesting disclosure.

I suspect CSIS exploited the knowledge of the spy to identify Russian handlers, then use them to identify and track other agents.

Games within games...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

cupper said:
			
		

> On the other side of the coin, Organizations like CSIS do have a tendency to be very risk adverse and can be overly cautious when it comes to revealing information to outside agencies, even when it serves national interests.
> 
> Sometimes it can be rather comical, sometimes they end up tripping over their own ... feet?





			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hmm... not quite the way I'd describe the CSIS personnel I've known.  Or, in other words, You don't know Jack.
> 
> Given the folks I know, it would not surprise me at all if CSIS verbally requested the FBI to tip off the RCMP.  Very non-ATIP-able (if that's a word); meets the need; and protects what they've done from a defence attorney requesting disclosure.
> 
> I suspect CSIS exploited the knowledge of the spy to identify Russian handlers, then use them to identify and track other agents.
> 
> Games within games...



Yeah, I was kinda wondering where cupper came by his amazing insight into the inner workings of these organizations and what qualifies him to make these statements also.


----------



## Haggis

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was kinda wondering where cupper came by his amazing insight into the inner workings of these organizations and what qualifies him to make these statements also.



The Internet, of course!  ;D

Like any piece of current affairs journalism these days, this article only shows one side of the story.  The other side we may never see, unfortunately, due to OPSEC.


----------



## Sig_Des

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Apart from the mysterious legal advice mentioned in the article - wonder if _that's_ ATIP'able?
> 
> 
> There is no reason that information/intelligence could not be passed to the RCMP, other than "Empire building" and "risk adverse" legal advisors.  A competent intelligence analyst could have easily written an "Intelligence Product" that had the necessary facts for those that needed to know (RCMP), in order for them make an arrest.  There is no need to 'specifically' identify sources.  There is no need to divulge large amounts of information collected, some, or a lot of it, irrelevant.   Not to have passed on information/intelligence to the RSMP defeats the whole existence of this organization.  It means that they are a "toothless" agency of the government, and a waste of taxpayer's dollars.   Someone has to really get their shyte together.



What I'm curious about, is why the CFNCIU wasn't involved ( I'm just assuming, but I can't remember any reference to it at all in anything I've seen on the Delisle affair). From reading their mandate, it seems to me like it would have been the obvious choice. Unless I'm missing something.

Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?


----------



## George Wallace

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> What I'm curious about, is why the CFNCIU wasn't involved ( I'm just assuming, but I can't remember any reference to it at all in anything I've seen on the Delisle affair). From reading their mandate, it seems to me like it would have been the obvious choice. Unless I'm missing something.
> 
> Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?



I guess not.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps they were involved and are flying under the radar to avoid the spotlight.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Wouldn't CSIS and the NCIU have some sort of relationship?



There is. The NCIU's mandate is investigate and counter threats to the Canadian Forces. That includes liaising with civilian police/security agencies to help identify any threats. See  Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit, and  Security Intelligence Liaison Program ,


----------



## CougarKing

Edited to add: Thanks to the mods for the thread name change.  

A related update for Sept. 2013:

link



> *Military was steamed about not being able to court martial navy spy*
> The Canadian Press
> 
> OTTAWA - *The Canadian military was privately furious the Harper government did not allow it to court-martial a naval intelligence officer who sold top-secret allied information to the Russians.*
> 
> And the decision could well have far-reaching implications and potentially compound the damage done by former sub-lieutenant Jeffrey Delisle, says an intelligence expert who followed the case.
> 
> The 42-year-old Delisle was sentenced to 20 years in prison earlier this year after pleading guilty to selling classified Western intelligence to Russia during a four-year period which began in 2007.
> 
> *He was arrested in January 2012 after the FBI tipped off the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, which after months of surveillance brought in the RCMP to build a criminal case.
> 
> The military was brought into the loop only after the investigation was well on its way towards a civilian prosecution.*
> 
> "All senior government authorities involved in security and intelligence matters should be made aware of the alternatives available to pursue suspects subject to the Code of Service discipline, so that automatic defaults to mechanisms more applicable to civilians do not occur," said a newly declassified military assessment of the damage wrought by the spy scandal.
> 
> "Little or no discussion concerning the advantages of employing the military police to lead the criminal investigation, the (Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit) to lead the counter-intelligence investigation and laying the charges under the Military Justice Systems appears to have occurred and/or fully informed decisions made with regard to the way ahead."
> 
> *When someone joins the Forces, they are subject to a totally separate justice system while in uniform and on base. Infractions committed off-base can be dealt with in civilian courts, such as in the case of the sex murder charges against former air force colonel Russell Williams.
> 
> The rules for courts martial give the military wide latitude on what evidence is presented in public and what is kept secret.
> 
> It would have been in the country's best interest to prosecute Delisle by court martial because the public disclosure of details through the civilian system has laid bare weaknesses in the intelligence community, said Michel Juneau-Katsuya, a former CSIS agent*.
> 
> (...)


----------



## The Bread Guy

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Shouldn't this thread be updated/retitled to "The Lt. (N) Jeffrey Delisle espionage case" to prevent confusion?


Good call.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well maybe since light has been shone on the weakness it will compel the Intelligence community to get their shit together sooner then later.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There are, at the highest level of "the Harper government," _sectretariats_ (staff branches) that are very well aware of "the alternatives available to pursue suspects subject to the Code of Service discipline" and who are equally aware of the capabilities and limitations of the military police, the Canadian Forces National Counter-Intelligence Unit, and the Military Justice Systems.

My guess would be that the people at the very top of the national intelligence business ~ none of whom wear uniforms and all of whom work in PCO* ~ decided, after consulting with similarly highly placed people in e.g. America, Australia, Britain, New Zealand, etc, that they wanted the best shot at a proper, professional investigation and a solid, appeal proof conviction so they went with real police, professional CI folks and civil courts.


Edit to add:
_____
* There is a commodore/brigadier general assigned to the Privy Council Office, as an advisor, but (s)he is NOT "at the very top" of any of the policy/security/defence/intelligence secretariats.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

As long as he gets nailed to the wall as hard as possible, I am happy with the end result regardless of the method.


----------



## Emilio

Colin P said:
			
		

> As long as he gets nailed to the wall as hard as possible, I am happy with the end result regardless of the method.


 My thoughts exactly.  :nod:


----------



## kratz

Reference: CBC.ca



> Convicted spy released on parole less than halfway into sentence
> Former Canadian navy officer, 47, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for sharing secrets with Russia
> Gabrielle Fahmy · CBC News · Posted: Aug 21, 2018 4:32 PM AT
> 
> 
> The Parole Board of Canada decided Tuesday to release convicted spy Jeffrey Delisle on day parole, after a two-hour hearing at Dorchester Penitentiary in New Brunswick.
> 
> Delisle, 47, a former Canadian naval intelligence officer, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for, in the words of the  sentencing judge, "coldly and rationally" selling secrets to Russia.
> 
> It was considered Canada's biggest spy scandal in more than half a century.
> 
> The RCMP arrested Delisle in January 2012, charging him with two counts of communicating information to a foreign entity without lawful authority and with breach of trust.
> 
> He was sent to prison in February 2013.




More at link


----------



## dapaterson

And in the "Before you knew it" department, Navy spy Jeffrey Delisle granted full parole

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/03/08/jailed-navy-spy-jeffrey-delisle-granted-full-parole-federal-board/#.XILYrihKi71


----------



## Czech_pivo

In a number of countries around the world this person would have been executed or never be let of prison.  

Here in Canada, being a spy (traitor) while in the service of your countries armed forces results in only 6yrs in prison and then some parole.....

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEHP3jPEcgiAbXr_4soCVAd4qGQgEKhAIACoHCAow6f-ICzDjj4gDMK2RnwY


----------



## Remius

I'm probably picking fly crap out of pepper but the topic thread seems to indicate that he was spy that worked for the Navy.


----------



## kratz

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> He''ll be home before 90% of you guys a new posting.....



Bruce,

What are the winning Lotto 6/49 numbers this week?    ;D


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Russian spy case had its documents lost, destroyed: Canada’s information watchdog*
> 
> _By Jim Bronskill
> The Canadian Press_
> 
> Federal officials lost or possibly destroyed sensitive records about the case of a naval officer convicted of selling secrets to Russia, an investigation by Canada’s information commissioner has found.
> 
> The commissioner’s probe, which involved the country’s top public servant and the prime minister’s national-security adviser, left key questions unanswered because the classified records about the spy case could not be located.
> 
> The episode began seven years ago when The Canadian Press filed an Access to Information Act request with the Privy Council Office for briefing notes, emails and reports about the case of Jeffrey Delisle from a three-week period in the spring of 2013.
> 
> Delisle, a troubled junior naval officer, had been sentenced to 20 years in prison after pleading guilty to passing classified western intelligence to Russia in exchange for cash on a regular basis for more than four years.
> 
> The access law, intended to ensure government transparency, allows people who pay a $5 fee to ask for a wide array of federal documents, with some specific exceptions.
> 
> The Privy Council Office, the apex of the federal bureaucracy, responded in August 2013 that the records concerning Delisle would be entirely withheld from release because they dealt with matters such as investigations, international relations and detection of subversive or hostile activities.
> 
> The Canadian Press complained the following month to the information commissioner, an ombudsman for users of the law who has the power to review documents and decide whether they have been properly withheld.
> 
> The events that followed were detailed this month in a letter to the news agency from information commissioner Caroline Maynard.
> 
> The commissioner’s office asked in 2013 for an uncensored copy of the files to examine and the Privy Council Office said arrangements would be made for an investigator to view the sensitive records on site.
> 
> However, it appears more than five years passed before the commissioner’s office followed up.
> 
> In July 2019, the deputy director of the Privy Council Office corporate-services branch told one of the commissioner’s investigators the documents had “most likely” been inadvertently destroyed.
> 
> Maynard then issued an order to Greta Bossenmaier, the national security and intelligence adviser to the prime minister at the time, to produce the records — a move aimed at determining whether they had indeed been purged.
> 
> In late November, the Privy Council Office’s director of Access to Information replied on Bossenmaier’s behalf that the Privy Council Office could neither locate the records nor confirm if they had been destroyed.
> 
> The director provided a few more clues: in 2013, an access analyst viewed the records in a secure area of the office’s security and intelligence secretariat. They were then placed in a folder that appears to have been returned to a different cabinet.
> 
> “Should the documents be located, PCO will inform your office,” he wrote.
> 
> As the PCO had still not confirmed the status of the documents, Maynard asked Privy Council clerk Ian Shugart in a Dec. 30, 2019, letter to provide any existing records by Jan. 20.
> 
> “I also urged the clerk to ensure that PCO take the necessary steps to guarantee that all records relevant to ongoing (Access to Information) complaints are properly stored,” says Maynard’s letter to The Canadian Press.
> 
> The Privy Council Office’s assistant deputy minister replied to Maynard last month that the records could not be found and called the matter “an isolated incident.”
> 
> Since the incident, the PCO “has committed to ensuring a more rigorous approach” is taken with such requests, said Pierre-Alain Bujold, a Privy Council Office spokesman.
> 
> The PCO says it now directs officials to make copies of sensitive documents, ensure the request number is prominently displayed, and place the file in a centralized vault for safekeeping and future reference.
> 
> Natalie Bartlett, a spokeswoman for Maynard, declined to comment, saying the access law doesn’t allow the office to discuss an investigation unless and until it is published in a report.
> 
> In her letter to The Canadian Press, Maynard, who became commissioner in March 2018, apologized for the delay in investigating the complaint.
> 
> “Your complaint has brought to the fore both the importance of institutions’ proper identification and preservation of responsive records, as well as the importance of conducting timely investigations.”
> 
> Maynard said that upon her appointment she instituted measures to ensure older complaints “continue to be actively pursued and that files do not remain unassigned for lengthy periods of time.”
> 
> She added that in this case, without the records, “I cannot effectively assess whether PCO was justified in refusing access, in whole or in part, under the act, nor can I prospectively recommend that information, incapable of being located, be disclosed.”
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6585417/jeffrey-delisle-watchdog-russia-spy/


----------

