# NE Tech, ATIS, LCIS - SEP vs Direct Entry  Experience and info please...



## RedMan (5 Feb 2010)

I recently lost my job as an Electronics Technician. I had this job for 14 years. We repaired all things electronic in Chrysler vehicles. (radios, cd players, tape players, instrument clusters, computers, all our test epuipment,etc) We repaired them inside and out down to the component level for everything.

Here where I live (Windsor), jobs are VERY hard to find, especially in this trade. Even minimum wage jobs are tough to get. Not much to pay a mortgage with. I am also married with 2 children (7 and 10).

So now i m seriously considering being a TECH for the CF. I have been on these forums for weeks, and doing a lot of research... talking to the recruiters, etc.

Here are my options. I was considering the SAP entry option (Subsidized Education Plan) as detailed below by RCC Institue: (in Ontario)




> --------------------
> If you are interested in a Canadian Armed Forces technical trade, but are worried about the cost of tuition, you may be interested in checking out the rewarding option of joining the Canadian Forces (CF) under our Non-Commissioned Member - Subsidized Education Plan (NCM-SEP).
> 
> This program is in high demand and limited seats are available. Please contact us as soon as possible if you are interested in exploring this option.
> ...



My other option would be to go Direct Entry for ATIS or LCIS. What I want to know is how does the pay work for this way in terms on years. I know you have to be in the CF for about 4 years to be Corporal (around $52000), and to get SPEC pay you need your QL3. Do you get paid around $45000 after 2 years or does it take longer???

My choices are either:

NE Techs (only though the SEP) and make around $52000 after 2 years of school at RCC (instead of 4 through direct entry),  or

LCIS/ATIS SEP(has very limited positions available) or Direct Entry (has a lot available). But I'm not sure of the pay rate after 2 years...

My current College Diploma (2 years Electronic technician  St Clair College) is not recognised by the CF.

I need to know this as I need to make sure that if I have to be away from my family from the time of BMQ to posting, I need to know if we can make if work financially with them still at the house (wife has job) or nearby wherever my military trade training will take place (after selling the house, wife would have no job). I am very familiar with the CF. I was in Army Cadets for years and my brother is in the Reserves. This would not just be a job to me, but I have to consider how if affects my family. 

My recruiter did tell me that all trades all locked until April, EXCEPT for LCIS and the NE Tech trades. Those are being processed now...


The NE Tech jobs seem to be more about board swapping (correct me please if I'm wrong). LCIS/ATIS seems to ba a better fit for me as I am a computer nut in all aspects possible, and also my 14 years experince. Any info on pay and experience on all these trades would be GREATLY appreciated, as I have not seen much on the SEP entry options on the board. I would like some responses that are more up to date from poeple actually doing it, and not just those from a recruiter.


Thank you for your time...


----------



## Occam (5 Feb 2010)

RedMan said:
			
		

> Here are my options. I was considering the SAP entry option (Subsidized Education Plan) as detailed below by RCC Institue: (in Ontario)



The details of the SEP program are the same regardless of institution (so long as it's an approved institution).




> My other option would be to go Direct Entry for ATIS or LCIS. What I want to know is how does the pay work for this way in terms on years. I know you have to be in the CF for about 4 years to be Corporal (around $52000), and to get SPEC pay you need your QL3. Do you get paid around $45000 after 2 years or does it take longer???
> 
> My choices are either:
> 
> ...



If by direct entry, you mean enrolling as a skilled entrant, you would likely be enrolled as an Acting Cpl/LS.



> My current College Diploma (2 years Electronic technician  St Clair College) is not recognised by the CF.



Are you sure about that?  If you are eligible for certification by OACETT as a Certified Electronics Technician (C.Tech), then the CF would recognize your training.  Even without that, you might still be granted skilled entrant status - have you asked?  Do a search on "PLA" (Prior Learning Assessment) on this site for more details.



> The NE Tech jobs seem to be more about board swapping (correct me please if I'm wrong). LCIS/ATIS seems to ba a better fit for me as I am a computer nut in all aspects possible, and also my 14 years experince.



You'd still have lots of jobs that are not just "board swapping" as a NE Tech.  For ATIS/LCIS, IT work is only a small portion of the overall job - but there is lots of opportunity to get into it if you wish.



> Any info on pay and experience on all these trades would be GREATLY appreciated, as I have not seen much on the SEP entry options on the board. I would like some responses that are more up to date from poeple actually doing it, and not just those from a recruiter.



I can't explain the differences in pay that RCC gives for the various trades.  Unless something changed, the general rule for NCM-SEP was that the member was promoted to Acting Lacking Cpl/LS upon graduation from college.  Once fully QL5 trained, they would then be eligible to move to the Spec 1 pay field.  Skilled entrants normally are enrolled as Cpl/LS upon graduation of BMQ.


----------



## FDO (5 Feb 2010)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and recommend that you print off your questions and take them down to the Recruiting Centre in Windsor. That way you will get the information you want from a QUALIFIED Recruiter not some hack 17 year old that is half way through his process. (not talking about you Occam). That way you can ask the questions and any other that come up during the conversation. They are there to spend as much time with you as is needed.


----------



## RedMan (5 Feb 2010)

After reading your helpful answers, I called up my recruiter again to clarify some things.

When I said Direct Entry I always meant Normal enrolment, not "skilled".

NE Techs are being processed but are not open.

To put it simply he described the pay for normal enrolment, the same as the Pay Scale Chart here, though it could be a little less:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

So after two years of enrolment in LCIS I should be at about $46236 a year. Does that sound right?

After about 4 years I would be Corporal (if all goes well), and if I get QL5 I would get Spec Pay...


Now I could have them do a PLA, and maybe I would get entry as "skilled". Hopefully my work experience and College subjects would help. So would a skilled entry skip past the POET course? After looking at what POET has, I'm sure I could skip most of it, though a refresher of some of it would be good.

Right now I'm just taking a few weeks to brush up on my Math before taking my CFAT.

Living in Windsor, also makes having my trade training in Kingston a bit better for the family.

I would only consider NE Tech if I did it through SEP. I am assuming they pay more for NE Techs (through SEP)because they have a harder time keeping recruits in that trade??? This would be an incentive I assume...


----------



## Occam (5 Feb 2010)

RedMan said:
			
		

> After reading your helpful answers, I called up my recruiter again to clarify some things.
> 
> When I said Direct Entry I always meant Normal enrolment, not "skilled".
> 
> ...



Yes.



> After about 4 years I would be Corporal (if all goes well), and if I get QL5 I would get Spec Pay...



The promotion to Corporal is virtually automatic.  You'd have to be a complete screwup to not get your CO's recommendation.  The other requirements are a pulse and 48 months service.  Attainment of QL5 status gets you into the Cpl, Spec 1 pay field.



> Now I could have them do a PLA, and maybe I would get entry as "skilled". Hopefully my work experience and College subjects would help. So would a skilled entry skip past the POET course? After looking at what POET has, I'm sure I could skip most of it, though a refresher of some of it would be good.



If the PLA reveals sufficient training, you could skip part or all of POET.  The only way to know for sure is to have the PLA done.  Certification from OACETT as a C.Tech would almost certainly guarantee skilled entrant status (and potentially a recruitment allowance of $10K/$20K, if the trade you apply for is eligible at the time) - that's why I mentioned it.  Search this site for "recruitment allowance" for more info on it, but check with the recruiting centre for the most up-to-date list of eligible trades.  Don't take anyone's word here about eligible trades, unless they're a recruiter giving you current info.



> Right now I'm just taking a few weeks to brush up on my Math before taking my CFAT.
> 
> Living in Windsor, also makes having my trade training in Kingston a bit better for the family.
> 
> I would only consider NE Tech if I did it through SEP. I am assuming they pay more for NE Techs (through SEP)because they have a harder time keeping recruits in that trade??? This would be an incentive I assume...



I'm still not convinced that there is a difference in the rate of pay between a NE Tech student or a LCIS/ATIS Tech student in the NCM-SEP program.  I can't guarantee that the RCC webpage is out to lunch, but I'm pretty sure it is.  For example, Conestoga College has a webpage for NCM-SEP, and they don't make a distinction between the trades, salary-wise.  I'm pretty sure the intent of NCM-SEP was, and has always been, to produce Cpl/LS technicians at the end of two years of college.  The rate of pay should be the same, regardless of trade.

Check with a recruiter to be sure.

Something else you may want to ask a recruiter is whether skilled entrants are subject to the same "closed" status as regular applicants.  A lot of times recruiting stops in a trade because the training system can only handle so many people.  If training isn't necessary, you may not be subject to the wait.  I'm just tossing that out there as something you would want to check on, considering you do have skills and many trades are frozen until April.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Feb 2010)

I'll add my 2 beans for the ATIS side (as a former 226r).

1.  I think you would be more likely to get a *semi-skilled* entry as opposed to *skilled*.  With no previous CF time, you'd do BMQ for sure.  Also, skilled usually means "no MOC training required".  For applicants right off the street, that means they can be employed after completing BMQ.  

2.  You *may* get a POET bypass, but I would suggest it is highly unlikely you will get a MOC training bypass of any kind.  The QL3 course is the first "equipment" course for ATIS, run out of Kingston.  It would cover many things that you've never seen before, i.e. equipment specific to airfields (RADAR, etc).

3.  Following the completion of the QL3 apprentice course, ATIS Techs are then posted to their first unit, and then have to complete a QL3 Apprentice OJT package.  Its not overly in depth, but expands on everything you'd of learned up to date.  The package requires X amount of time on "system x", with there being 6 areas IIRC, that must be signed off by a journeymen level tech (Cpl with QL5 as a minimum).

4.  After completing the QL3 OJTP, it is sent off to AF C & E Trg in Winnipeg.  The CWO shop there would then course load you on the QL5 course, ran in Trenton.  Its about 3 months long.  After that you would likely go to Kingston again for a 3 week High Reliability Soldering course.

5.  After that, you'd go back to your unit/Wing and get plugged in to one of the sections and then you'd be a Spec 1 Journeymen Tech.

A few years ago, there was a loophole where a few people had PLARs completed that didn't make it to the right desk for equivalencies.  The file was supposed to go to CFCSE in Kingston, but didn't.  Since then, all equivalancies have to go thru AF C & E Trg at 1CAD before a bypass is granted.  Or, that was what I was told by the ATIS career manager a few years back.

Hope this info helps some.  Someone who is still living and breathing the 226 world might know of more current info on direct entry folks, PLARs and the like.


----------



## RedMan (5 Feb 2010)

Is getting a PLAR a way of getting Certification from OACETT as a C.Tech? Or is that something I have to do on my own?

I would assume I "could" be considered semi-skilled, since I've been doing this for 14 years. I wouldn't think I could bypass ALL of POET, but definetly some of it!  Anything besides that I know I would have to (re)learn, as it is very specific to Military equipment.



> After that you would likely go to Kingston again for a 3 week High Reliability Soldering course.



What does this entail? I've removed(desoldered) and replaced (soldered) almost any kind of component and IC/chip/processor there is out there everyday for years... except for Ball Grid Array ICs. I lost my job before we started changing those...


Thank you guys... you are very informative. I always check all info I get with the Recruiter, so don't worry.


----------



## Occam (5 Feb 2010)

RedMan said:
			
		

> Is getting a PLAR a way of getting Certification from OACETT as a C.Tech? Or is that something I have to do on my own?



Other way around.  Applying for and receiving certification from OACETT would ensure that your PLA results in (semi-) skilled entrant status.  OACETT certification makes you a "card-carrying" electronics tech.



> I would assume I "could" be considered semi-skilled, since I've been doing this for 14 years. I wouldn't think I could bypass ALL of POET, but definetly some of it!  Anything besides that I know I would have to (re)learn, as it is very specific to Military equipment.



Only a PLA will tell you for sure how much your prior training/experience will count towards POET.  EITS is correct in that you'll have to go through the TQ3 equipment phase, regardless of the results of your PLA. 



> What does this entail? I've removed(desoldered) and replaced (soldered) almost any kind of component and IC/chip/processor there is out there everyday for years... except for Ball Grid Array ICs. I lost my job before we started changing those...



If that's the case, the HRS course will be a relaxing three weeks for you.   ;D


----------

