# Queston re:' 'vested rights to pay'



## Rad (17 May 2006)

Would any former reservists who are currently ROTP students please PM me or leave an e-mail address here.  This is in reference to "vested rights" of your former reserve pay and how it is affecting your current ROTP pay.  I would like to speak to as many of you as possible so I know some possible scenarios as I will be in that position very soon and would like to be aware of what I will be, or should be, getting.  I appreciate all the help anyone can offer.

R.


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## AmphibousAssult (18 May 2006)

I would also be interested in this information, any e-mails or PM's would be appreciated.


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## HCA123 (18 May 2006)

From what I gather from the recruiting centre, vested rights is not something you ask for, it's given automatically. I got it last year from my jump from the reserves to a DEO officer (Sgt to SLt) and my buddy who just got his ROTP civie U acceptance is keeping his MCpl reserve pay while he finishes university as an Ocdt. To state it simply (from my experience and talking with others that have made the jump), with the new rules you can't go down in pay from the reserves to the regs, even if you are going to an Ocdt rank.


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## Rad (18 May 2006)

I was just wondering because I've been getting conflicting stories, and if I know what I'm entitled to then I'll be able to inquire about it if I find that it's not what I'm getting.  Mistakes are known to be made.  What I was looking for was an example, like your buddy, who is keeping his pay.  Ideally I was looking for a situation exactly like mine to see what they got, but I assume he got picked up partway through his degree so I still don't know what to expect :-\.  Thanks for your input, every bit helps.  

R.


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## scholesy (9 Jun 2006)

I was a reservist for a year before I signed up for RMC.  I'm on the ROTP program and as far as I know, and as far as all of my ex-reservist fellow cadets go, we're all just on straight OCdt pay.  CPSS (our clerks and such) were looking into changing that.  

The reason why I (and thus, the rest of teh ex-reserves) won't qualify for the pay thing is because you have to clear out completely and re-enroll as an officer.  I had to essentially VR out of the reserves because I could sign up for ROTP.  I tried to do a component transfer, but they wouldnt' let me do it that way.  

Anyways, moral of the story is: cut your losses, and enjoy RMC and all the benefits of living on OCDT pay.


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## andpro (19 Jun 2006)

I just got a phone call today from the CFRC and they just informed me that I will be getting  a higher pay incentive because I had been in the reserves. I didn't think I was entitled to anything special, because I only finished BMQ before I was accepted into ROTP.


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## andpro (18 Jul 2006)

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I was on vacation in Quebec without internet. I have found out that I will not be paid as ROTP but as CEOTP because I was in the reserves, but my terms of enrollment will still be the same as any other person in ROTP.


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## TDV-Arte-et-Marte (31 Jul 2006)

What date is this retroactive to?


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2006)

Besides reading the above, try SEARCHing for "Vested Rights" as it has been covered before.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> (since apparently I am entitled since others with the same prev. exp. as me are getting this increased pay).



Do you know that the above statement means absolutely "Jack S----", unless on your Enrollment Message it is identical to theirs.  It is off of your Enrollment Message, that your Pay Scale is decided.  It is what Ottawa offered you, and you accepted.  Perhaps they got better offers than you.  You did keep a copy of that Message didn't you?  That is what dictates what your Pay is.

There are other factors involved to, such as Marital Status, Education, etc. that may have affected their entry levels of Pay. 

If you read some of the other Posts in this and other topics, it has all been discussed before.  If you can't show some initiative now, what are you going to do later.......listen to your Cpl for the rest of your career/life?


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## old man neri (19 Dec 2006)

You could also try reading all of CBI 204. It's all in there and it explains all the different reasons for different rates of pay. Particularly 204.211.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> Can anyone help (maybe someone with access to the DIN)?



As others have said, all these cases are dealt with individually - there is no correct "DS Solution" to cover all cases.  I cannot help you (I'm out of date).

As a former Chief Clerk, however, I can perhaps suggest a plan of action.

Ask your Chief Clerk (on paper or email - don't just march into his office or phone him) if he can look into your situation, and fill you in on the nuances.  Give him as much information as you can - info the Adjt on your written/emailed request.

WAIT.  Chief Clerks (like RQs, ETs, Chief Cooks, and just about every other Sr NCO appt I could name) are EXTREMELY busy men.  Give him time to do the research, ask the questions higher, and get the answers back.  He'll call YOU when he's ready to brief you.

LISTEN to what he has to say.  Ask intelligent questions - chances are he's already asked those questions higher, and has their answers.  If you are not happy with what you're hearing (and you may not be), DON'T take it out on the Chief Clerk.  Ask his advice as to how to proceed to grieve.  LISTEN to what he has to say.  Chances are, if he agrees that you have been wronged he will have researched that as well.  If you're STILL not happy - take it to the Adjt.  He will (most likely) have been briefed by the CC already, and may have other options for you, or may just tell you to STFU, that's up to him.

Good luck to you.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> Thanks. But I don't have a chief clerk. I have a civvie clerk in the SEM office at CFB London. He does not respond to emails, loses paperwork and generally does not get much done. Seriously.
> 
> So my idea is to go to the pay office at NDHQ (since I am in Ottawa) and ask someone there. My be easier in person then playing email tag with someone who does not want to help. All I want is either yes or no, and an explanation of why some get it and others dont (I'm not the only one in my sit).



I hear you, and I feel your pain.

However - I can almost guarantee that no matter who you pose the question to, research will be involved.  In other words, you cannot simply call someone and expect an answer during that conversation.  AND, the answer to YOUR query will not necessarily be relevant to your buddy who is in the (apparently) same situation.

Having spent my career happily avoiding HQs (with one minor one-year discretion), I am not aware of the hierarchy involved.  I DO suggest, however, that a reasonable approach through the Administrative Support Chain is probably the best way to go - IFF that fails, then approach the Chain of Command.  

If that means asking the Chief Clerk at the NDHQ Pay Office (info his Adjt or reasonable facsimile thereof), then so be it.  

It was my experience that most sp types loathed injustices of all kinds, and were quite willing to be of assistance to correct them, when they, in fact, existed.

Good luck to you - don't lose sleep over this, take the required steps and have a Merry Christmas.


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## George Wallace (19 Dec 2006)

Unless you have the message that states what you have been granted for pay on enrollment they will most likely not be able to do anything for you.  As I said before, your friends and sister may have been given better offers than you.  

You stated that you all did BMQ, which really isn't much, and usually doesn't even rate Vested Rights.  You have left out a lot of important information, such as:  What Trades did you all get accepted in?  What is the Marital Status of all of your group of merry travellers?  Where are you living?  Are you all paying Rations and Quarters?  Did any get offered a Signing Bonus?  What Plans were you all enrolled under?  No one here can tell you anything without all this information.  

We have already told you that everyone is treated differently, individually, on entry.  What they got offered may not be what you got offered.  Sure you are all entered into the CF, but that is where all similarities end.

If you want to rant on like a spoiled child, you will get nowhere fast.

Oh!  On a side note.....will anyone even be in the NDHQ Pay Office over Christmas Leave?  Like you they may all be gone.


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## Infanteer (19 Dec 2006)

I've known guys who've submitted memos regarding the pay level they were given by CFRC - but these were guys who were Corporals with tours and what not.  You might be told to take a hike if you have a few months and a BMQ reserve course.


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## andpro (20 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Oh!  On a side note.....will anyone even be in the NDHQ Pay Office over Christmas Leave?  Like you they may all be gone.



Even if they're not on leave don't hold your breath. Don't call them go in there yourself because it's difficult to reach them by phone, but when you go in they'll probably tell you to book an appointment and I'm guessing that they're probably all booked up, as people probably want to get pay issues settled before the holidays. good luck.


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## old man neri (20 Dec 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> So my idea is to go to the pay office at NDHQ (since I am in Ottawa for X-mas leave) and ask someone there.



I would strongly advise against this. Firstly of all, good luck finding the pay people at NDHQ. Second of all, it is not their job to answer your questions. You are suppose to go through your chain of command, not circumvent everyone just so you get your way. Lastly, if you do find someone and you do start asking all sorts of questions.....well, they will probably tell you to go through your chain of command and will not be very impressed with you. 

What are you doing to do, walk in to the ADM(fin-cs)'s office and demand an answer? That would probably be a painful experience, certainly not one you will forget. 

Recommendation: Go through your chain of command, don't jump over people's heads.


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## shadow (20 Dec 2006)

Piper said:
			
		

> We're all single, civvie-u students living on the economy at civilian university. Most of them (minus my sister, who just started ROTP) were enrolled at the same time I was, same qualifications etc etc.



First Question:
Are you all at the same University?

Secondly:
If you find the appropriate references, submit a memo.  Now's a better time than ever to start practicing your military writing skills.  Memos can be traced and have to be actioned.  If you feel you are owed more money, then submit it to your ULO, and let them take care of it.  They are your administration point of contact.  I would be cautious about comparing your rate of pay to other people's though.  Everyone is entitled to different things, and who knows, maybe they made a mistake on your buddies pay, and they will have to pay it back eventually.


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## Rad (20 Dec 2006)

Here's what happened for me:

Enlisted as a Pte. in Nov '05 and completed BMQ from Dec-Mar.   Did not work again until I applied and got accepted to ROTP civie-u.  Enrolled on Aug 10 and began work on Aug 25.  I am being paid on the CEOTP pay scale, it came through automatically in my offer.  If you have any questions, feel free to PM me and I will try to help as much as I can.

R.


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## maniac779 (25 Dec 2006)

This is a topic I have, lucky for some of you in this thread, have had to become a SME on, as I was in a similar situation and managed to solve it, using the methods that, surprisingly enough, the older, wiser members of the forum have been suggesting. Funny how that works...

First, brief history of my case. I was a reservist for 4 years plus. (I know that doesn't apply to many of you, but time in doesn't seem to be a huge factor for whatever reason.) I had plenty of courses and a bit of full time under my belt. When I CT'ed to the RegF, I was granted Pay Table A, Level B and then was subsequently promoted into Pay Table B, Level B. I was recieving the same rate of pay as those who enrolled in my entry program off the street with no prior service. Combined with my educational qualifications that by passes me through a phase of my training, I believed I was entitled to pay that reflected my previous service and possession of qualifications in my new trade.

Now, the DS solution... which has already been suggested. A Memo. They are surprisingly POWERFUL things. Learn how to write them.

Gather all the references you can find. I referenced CBI 204.211, ADM-HR MIL Adminitrative Instructions, Grievance Board Cases, my Statement of Reserve Force Service (CF1007), My MPRR... anything I could get my hands on to illustrate my point. As someone said, the people who deal with this type of thing are busy, and they don't have time to wade through alot of crap. So, get out a highlighter, highlight the important stuff in your references, and attach them properly to a short, concise and complete memo, outlining your case.

After you have complied your case, submit the memo through your CoC and request a "File review" both verbally on submission and in the memo. What should happen is the memo, after being reviewed an minuted by your supervisor, will go to the OR. The OR will make a copy of your Pers file and send it, along with a letter to G3 Enrollment Inquires at CFRG in Borden, requesting that your entitlements on enrollment be reviewed and any required changes be made.

Each file is then reviewed on a case by case basis by Borden. It takes around a month or so. After the file review is complete, G3 will either issue a ETP message ammendment, stating your new pay details, or a letter stating that your file has been reviewed and you get what you got.

This isn't a short process. Expect at least a month for Borden to review the file and another 3 months from the date on the message ammendment to seeing a change in your pay. My message was recieved by Ottawa on Oct 20th and I am still waiting to see the money on a pay statement. I am hoping for January, but like everything, this takes time.

I would not normally claim anything I say is gospel, but from my experiance and those of others, this is the way you do this. And let me add that your pay is YOUR business. Don't expect someone to do the legwork for you. You need to put together a case that is easy to review in order for your request to be actioned in a timely manner.

Cheers.


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## old man neri (25 Dec 2006)

Good stuff maniac


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## HCA123 (30 Jan 2007)

I too had a joining message that had to be amended. Anyone that DEO'd from the ranks (I went res NCM to reg O) is eligible to be paid at level D of the officer pay scale (CBI 204.211 para 9.1). I was offered/paid on level C upon enrolment and that's what I've been paid at since. I know at least 5 others that are in the same boat and didn't realize it until I told them all about it.

Borden cut a new message for me with an amendment to my joining message last month when I looked into it. Unfortunately I've been told that Ottawa is busy with pension restructuring in the pay system and that the pay system cannot yet make the amendments to my pay with the CBI's that apply to me (don't really understand it - it clearly states in the new message that I'll be paid level D not C - can't be too hard to change)... so I am in hurry up and wait mode until I finally get my new pay rate and back pay.


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## HCA123 (31 Jan 2007)

I was told that he had to go to Ottawa for the changes to be made with respect to my joining message (joining message said pay at level C - new message states pay in level D). Perhaps it has something to do with adjusting the level with respect to the CBI that applies to my case (maybe para 9.1 of 204.211 is new - I'm not sure). I've seen the email traffic between the person in charge of pay for in the west and my clerk - however it isn't any clearer for me why they can't action something like that immediately. It's all good though - the pay increase and backpay will be worth the wait.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Jan 2007)

Piper said:
			
		

> (although in this case, I get 20 months worth of back pay...at an extra 1000 a month...after taxes = new car  ;D)



Good, no more whining about having RV's in Guelph anymore................... :cheers:


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## maniac779 (3 Feb 2007)

HCA123,

I am sort of in the same situation. I had an ammendment message issued from Borden back in October adjusting my pay from Level B to Level D. I have still seen no action in my pay.

From the information I have gathered from numerous reliable resources, in theory, changing one's pay level like this is as simple as a transaction in HRMS. However, as this is not exactly an every day transaction, the vast majority of clerks are unfamiliar with the details of completing this action in HRMS and sometimes things go a little awry.

Such is the case with me right now. I managed to talk to the person in Ottawa working on my file (don't ask me how I managed that) and they basically told me my OR wasn't given enough information to do the transaction properly and as a result, it got all screwed up when they tried to take action. Now the guys who are working on this in Ottawa have to contact Borden to detirmine the EXACT CBI 204.211 Para that I am to be paid under before they can make the change. 

As long as they get the ''Level D'' part right, I am happy.

Its a mess. To make matters worse, I get posted in a month and need to buy furniture for an apartment among other things... I wonder where I am going to get this money from.  :-\

I have my fingers crossed for the March pay run.


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## HCA123 (3 Feb 2007)

I reread a lot of the email traffic and it seems that the adjustment (like you said, not an everyday one) wrt to the changes in the CBI's has not been done yet in the pay system. They should be changing it shortly, but I guess with all the pension restructuring they've gotten side tracked. 

I too could use the level D and backpay... brand new Mazda RX-8 I bought a couple of weeks ago is making a dent in the credit line


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## maniac779 (4 Feb 2007)

HCA123,

When did you get your ammendment message issued?


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## HCA123 (4 Feb 2007)

Somewhere between 5-10 Dec 06 is when the amendment message was cut (print off is in my office at work). I waited until after Christmas leave to bug them about actioning it and from what I gather it will be march/april by the time it's actioned by Ottawa. The message was pretty simple - something to the effect 'amend line X of message X (my enrollment message) to read pay at level D of table B or C, etc, etc' as before it had read pay at level C.


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## sadie_x (7 Oct 2009)

Anyone here have a problem with there pay when they went from Table A level D to table B/C level D?


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## PMedMoe (7 Oct 2009)

sadie_x said:
			
		

> Anyone here have a problem with there pay when they went from Table A level D to table B/C level D?



Didn't you start a thread with that question already?? 

They frown on "double" posting here.


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## sadie_x (7 Oct 2009)

Yes I did, because I put it in the admin section due to it being a pay thing.  Then i was reading this post and noticed it was very simular to my situation so I asked it here hoping i would get a response.


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