# Civi protesters, repect and the CDS's speech merged topics



## jwsteele (20 Sep 2005)

I'm an ROTP civi-u student at Carleton and I am absolutely fuming at the moment.  I just thought everyone here might want to hear what all of our highly knowledgable first and second year university students think of the CDS and the CF.  Here's the deal...my school INVITED the CDS to come and make a speech about Canada's military in today's world.  This is a big honor for the school and I am pumped to see what he has to say.  Just yesterday I passed by a group of left winged, wishy washy losers all trying to gather a mass group to disrupt the speech claiming the CDS and CF are killers and that we are becoming too American.  I wanted to one punch the first piece of shit I saw.  These stupid granola eaters have no friggin idea what they are talking about.  I hope the CDS has an ex-JTF security detail or something that would gladly smash some of their teeth in.  What the hell is wrong with these people?  They are absolutely clueless about what is really going on.  They should all be shot on sight if you ask me.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

wrong attitude.
We fight, kill, and die so that these morons can continue to be morons. 

"People like me do the things I do, so that people like you can continue to do the things you do."
- Johnny Michael Spann, Killed in Action (Afghanistan) 25 November, 2001

"It is the Soldier..."


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2005)

;D   Humourous the way such people of "Higher Learning" are so naive of what the World is really like.   Just a suggestion....find a couple of other CF types (Reg or Res - it doesn't matter), go to a nice little pub, quaff a few ale and laugh at their stupidity.   It can be an entertaining evening.    ;D


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## jwsteele (20 Sep 2005)

Well said...I absolutely agree...but honestly...what the hell is wrong with these people?   Always making accusations and speaking about shit they don't know about.   Bugs the fuck outta me.   Sometimes I think I should have just enlisted so I could be away from all these hopeless people.   I don't know how I'm going to make it through 3 more years of these dorks.


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## NMPeters (20 Sep 2005)

Don't sweat it. The CDS can hold his own against a group of ignorant 17 - 19 year olds. My guess is that he'll even take the time to try to educate them.


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## x-grunt (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele  
I feel your pain, but put it in perspective. What about the thousands of other students who aren't protesting? Betcha a lot of them share your views. Many won't, some will. Don't paint all the students with the "looney left" brush because some people feel strongly about this. There will always be a vocal minority - both left AND right. And thank gawd for that, it proves we are a free society after all.

Never been to Carleton, but at U of T I found a great many students who were willing to listen and learn what the CF was doing. Truth is many people aren't really clued in to what's happening with us, or why. So my .02 is educate them when you can.


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## Gayson (20 Sep 2005)

It is a strong belief of mine that anti-war, anti-government, anti-theman sentiment is nothing more than a fashion statement.   It's all you see on MTV and hear in a lot of "punk" music today.

It's like all those kids who dress like punks but aren't, or the kids who walk around with skateboards but don't.   I honestly think that most of the people who are anti military don't even know why they are that way.   It's nothing more than a social trend I guess.

I find this belief of mine to be strongly supported by the amount of questions I get from people asking me such things as "Have you been to Iraq yet?" or "What it's like to be in iraq?"

How can anyone who considers themselves to be educated believe we are being to American when we aren't even in Iraq.   People need to come to grips with the fact that Canadian culture isn't being invaded by the US (which I think is the source of some of this ill-content) because there really isn't much culture to invade.   When you share a border with a country that has 8x the population you have and trade with them as much as we do, your going to see some striking similarities between both cultures.


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## Gramps (20 Sep 2005)

To reitterate paracowboy's post here. That form you signed upon enrolment and the oath you gave means that you are bound to protect their right to protest. I got into the same argument a few years ago about a peace rally. A coworker of mine at the time had mentioned how angry and annoyed he was because of this little peace rally and march until I reminded him that he is bound to protect that right. What a boring place this would be if we all thought the same or wre gagged and prevented from the "Freedom of Expression" that is covered in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Now, as for the " It's all you see on MTV and hear in a lot of "punk" music today." remark from J. Gayson . I would suggest you listen to some old school punk, you will find the attitude was the same in the 70's and 80's with this type of music. Try listening to some Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Exploited, Dead Kennedys, and the list goes on. Hell, if you want, I can even send you some because it seems to be all I am listening to lately. Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I'm an ROTP civi-u student at Carleton ...   I wanted to one punch the first piece of crap I saw.   ...I hope the CDS has an ex-JTF security detail or something that would gladly smash some of their teeth in.   ... They should all be shot on sight if you ask me.



Sounds like you would have fit right in with the *****.   Word to the wise....coffee stains are hard to get out of a brown shirt.

I hope you don't wander the halls muttering stuff like that out loud.   Or is that what you think an Army officer is supposed to be thinking about?




MOD Edit
Inapropriate use of a derogatory term.
Lets leave that part of history in its place and not refer to other members that way

Slim
STAFF


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## jmackenzie_15 (20 Sep 2005)

I agree with paracowboys' trend idea.

95% of the people like that ive ever gotten into a debate about the CF with, have absolutely no supporting arguments or any reason whatsoever to hate the military, besides ridiculuous accusations like "well they kill people".

You don't get any more ignorant than that.

Simply point them to the grave of Cpl.Murphy, refer to all of good progress made in Afghanistan already, and tell them to pick up a book.

I often attempt to just ignore them now though, because it usually isnt worth the headache, especially trying to convert crowds of them.
Theyre just doing it for the sake of it, and the rest are sheep.They are almost 100% of the time, people between 15-25, and are indeed the minority.Just let them live in their own ignorance.

Not as satisfying as having them all lynched , but hey, its Canada, not the third reich =p




> wrong attitude.
> We fight, kill, and die so that these morons can continue to be morons.
> 
> "People like me do the things I do, so that people like you can continue to do the things you do."
> - Johnny Michael Spann, Killed in Action (Afghanistan) 25 November, 2001


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

jmackenzie_15 said:
			
		

> I agree with paracowboys' trend idea.


while I agree with it, it's not my idea.


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## jmackenzie_15 (20 Sep 2005)

I'll rephrase that... I agree with that thought process.  ;D


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## Pikache (20 Sep 2005)

NMPeters said:
			
		

> Don't sweat it. The CDS can hold his own against a group of ignorant 17 - 19 year olds. My guess is that he'll even take the time to try to educate them.


That would be really interesting to see. CDS laying the intellectual smackdown on university hoohas who think they know a little bit.


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## DOOG (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele..
I play defence when I play ball hockey. The best part of playing defence is screwing up some show off jocks whole day when I take the ball away from him while he is all concentrated up on scoring a goal.

What does this have to do with protesters? 
You have the same rights they do, and they are so intent on their protest, they won't see a counter protest coming until it knocks their stick out of their hands.
Investigate, Infiltrate, Disrupt, and then go for those beers and a good laugh.

Just a thought.


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## blacktriangle (20 Sep 2005)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> It is a strong belief of mine that anti-war, anti-government, anti-theman sentiment is nothing more than a fashion statement.   It's all you see on MTV and hear in a lot of "punk" music today.
> 
> It's like all those kids who dress like punks but aren't, or the kids who walk around with skateboards but don't.   I honestly think that most of the people who are anti military don't even know why they are that way.   It's nothing more than a social trend I guess.
> 
> ...



You're 100% right. Many kids at my school "hate" bush. Why? They don't know either. They'd prefer to wear thier slogans and leave it at that. 

It's even worse when you bring up Canada. Most of them can't even name the prime minister. Once again, they do not care.

 :


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## jmackenzie_15 (20 Sep 2005)

RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> That would be really interesting to see. CDS laying the intellectual smackdown on university hoohas who think they know a little bit.



I would quite honestly, pay to see that happen.


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

Well, first of all, immature attitudes like the ones indicated by these guys at the University are not uncommon, and I tend to think they are part of the maturing process that a lot of young men and women go through. Keep in mind that most university students tend to lack the life experience of their 'worker' peers. Most don't live in the same 'world' that 'normal' people do. For most, their life revolves around ideas, learning, drinking, scraping together pizza money, and getting laid (sounds like being a private). Most don't have bosses, most usually don't have wives or kids, and most are surrounded almost exclusively by other young people in exactly the same situation. This doesn't lend itself to being exposed to a variety of viewpoints. Huge generalizations here, and there are exceptions (probably some members here), but you get the idea.

Whereas most people between the ages of 18 and say, 24 learn a whole lot about the real world, how it works, and how to get around in it, University students don't get that 'education' until they leave. In many ways, their maturation process halts at 18. Puts their views in perspective, no?

I am by no means trying to belittle students, or University education. I believe that, in short, they're just too darn busy doing the things I mentioned earlier to get this 'real world' education, but they eventually DO get it.

Punching them in the mouth for being narrow minded sheep is completely counter productive. Use your brain, not your fists, and you might actually accomplish something. By beating the snot out of them, you'll just reinforce their misconceptions of the CF and it's members. 

Steal their girlfriend, it's way more rewarding.  ;D


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## Jed (20 Sep 2005)

Roger that, Ceasar. I wish my university attending son would hoist this bit of wisdom aboard !


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## Cloud Cover (20 Sep 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Steal their girlfriend, it's way more rewarding.   ;D



Then dump her and send her back with a nice military tatoo.


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## jwsteele (20 Sep 2005)

I like the responses here.  99% of the time I do my very best to keep the fact that I am in the military a secret at university, but it just pisses me off to no end.  I grew up in a military family, none of which were officers, so I know how hard the bulk of CF members work and the sacrifices they make.  My decision to join the CF was based upon this knowledge.  I liked the fact that I would be protecting Canada and Canadians and upholding their rights and freedoms.  However, these ignorant dumb shits always have to take it that extra step further.  I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to "fight, kill, and die" for these people but they really need to wake the fuck up.


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to "fight, kill, and die" for these people but they really need to wake the frig up.



For the most part they will, in time.


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## Gayson (20 Sep 2005)

Gramps said:
			
		

> To reitterate paracowboy's post here. That form you signed upon enrolment and the oath you gave means that you are bound to protect their right to protest. I got into the same argument a few years ago about a peace rally. A coworker of mine at the time had mentioned how angry and annoyed he was because of this little peace rally and march until I reminded him that he is bound to protect that right. What a boring place this would be if we all thought the same or wre gagged and prevented from the "Freedom of Expression" that is covered in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
> 
> Now, as for the " It's all you see on MTV and hear in a lot of "punk" music today." remark from J. Gayson . I would suggest you listen to some old school punk, you will find the attitude was the same in the 70's and 80's with this type of music. Try listening to some Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Exploited, Dead Kennedys, and the list goes on. heck, if you want, I can even send you some because it seems to be all I am listening to lately. Cheers.



Gramps, I believe you have misinterpreted my post.

I'm not saying that punk artists are writting anti-war music because it's the cool thing to do.   I know a lot of "true" punks who know a thing or too about Canada in the world.   

What I was trying to point out was many kids follow the anti-war movement because they percieve it to be the "cool" thing to do.   The media is saturated with many such things and I believe that a lot of kids follow the "movement" because it is what they see.

When I mentioned punks who aren't, or skater who don't.   These people see punks and skaters and follow these trends because it is what they percieve to be the social norm, afterall, everybody wants to fit in right?


This sort of reminds me what my Course Warrant told me during my basic when I asked him why he joined the Army

"When I joined everyone was trying to be different, they didn't want to follow the system or the man.  I to wanted to be different, so I decided not to follow the common trend of the day and joined the Army."


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## x-grunt (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I grew up in a military family, none of which were officers, so I know how hard the bulk of CF members work



A little dig at the officers, eh?   

[quote author=2332piper]although its more often anti-americanism and anti-bushism. [/quote] 

Yes, that's been my experience too.


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## Infanteer (20 Sep 2005)

As well, I'd say the attitude of "shoot them all" is about as immature as the "CF are a bunch of killers" one - playing right into their stereotypes aren't you, Mr Steele?

This thread was a gongshow from the start....


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## jwsteele (20 Sep 2005)

In response to the officer/NCM comment...I was referring to the BULK of the CF and that they work very hard for little reward.  By the way, I realize we can't shoot them all nor do I want that...they pay my salary...it would be foolish  .  I just don't get where they're coming from.  If you heard the stuff this girl was spouting off, I guarantee it would infuriate any CF member.  She was the dumbest, most irrational moron I have ever heard and she was actually getting support.  I mean....holy shit.


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## Freddy Chef (20 Sep 2005)

Agree with the point that _some_ young university students, 17-25 years old, do not have any real life experience, do not know any better, and feel the need to prove themselves by taking up an antagonizing cause. [The War in Iraq, why the university administration called in the police during their last protest, etc.] This group of _individuals_ may be loud in their protests, but they are a minority, albeit an overzealous, and obnoxious one. But the remainder of the student body only need to listen to their soap-box-podium-debate/rant, for a few stanzas, to figure out that it is all unproductive rhetoric.

*"Actions speak louder than words"*

If all of these left-winged-radicals can do is b*tch and complain about an issue, no one will listen to them for long. Talk, the only thing they can do. The rest of the student body have the sense to figure that out.

When I went back to school, it didn't take long for people to figure out that I was ex-CF. [Didn't mention it until I was asked; odd bits of kit gave me away.] Most of the student body didn't have any qualms with it. Thus, I didn't feel the need to get into a long winded, public debate in defence of the military, whenever the odious protestors began to talk. 

Let the protestors say what they want, and only get physical with them if they get in your face.


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## Thirstyson (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> In response to the officer/NCM comment...I was referring to the BULK of the CF and that they work very hard for little reward.  By the way, I realize we can't shoot them all nor do I want that...they pay my salary...it would be foolish  .  I just don't get where they're coming from.  If you heard the stuff this girl was spouting off, I guarantee it would infuriate any CF member.  She was the dumbest, most irrational moron I have ever heard and she was actually getting support.  I mean....holy crap.



I think you'll find that there's more than a few of those at Carleton. 

If you'd been sensible you'd have picked a school a bit further north along the canal.  :dontpanic:


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## 2 Cdo (20 Sep 2005)

Mr Steele if I got upset and angry every time someone said something that upset me I would probably end up in the bell tower with a high powered rifle and really losing it. Life is way to short to get upset by the idiotic ramblings of some obviously immature people. You are going to have to learn to just ignore these types and carry on doing the job that they pay you to do. ;D


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Mr Steele if I got upset and angry every time someone said something that upset me I would probably end up in the bell tower with a high powered rifle and really losing it. Life is way to short to get upset by the idiotic ramblings of some obviously immature people. You are going to have to learn to just ignore these types and carry on doing the job that they pay you to do. ;D



That's some pretty good advice.


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## 2 Cdo (20 Sep 2005)

Thanks Caesar, if anyone else needs any problem solved feel free to ask. ;D


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Thanks Caesar, if anyone else needs any problem solved feel free to ask. ;D



Why does my Daddy drink so much?

Why does my Mommy go on so many 'dates'?

Why does it hurt when I pee?


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## 2 Cdo (20 Sep 2005)

Daddy drinks too much because mommy is going on dates! Mommy is going out on dates because daddy drinks too much! You, Caesar, will have to leave the sheep alone in the future and take this ten day cycle of tetracycline. 
That will be $75.00 please. You can't get this high level of treatment for free! ;D :blotto:


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

Thanks 2Cdo! Do you take PayPal?

I didn't know that about sheep. Dirty bastards. My friend tells me you can get wool from them too! 

Tetracycline, eh? So, no foot powder? Must be the new Army.


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## reccecrewman (20 Sep 2005)

Surprisingly, this little factoid hasn't been raised thus far, so I will say it.  You attend Carleton U jwsteel?  Well, surely you must have read in their broshures that they are quite proud of their Communist Club.  A "Little USSR" right on Campus, complete with huge portraits of Lenin & Stalin.  Surely you must have realized that there was going to be some odd balls in this school?


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## Part-Timer (20 Sep 2005)

Way back when George Bush (Senior) was getting ready to move on Kuwait, the same thing happened on every campus in Canada. Drove me crazy, but what can you do? Logic doesn't mean as much as emotion to a lot of people. Maybe these jokers at Carleton are the sons and daughters of those Birkenstock-wearing goofs(?) Which just goes to show you that these protests aren't going away any time soon.


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## dutchie (20 Sep 2005)

Part-Timer said:
			
		

> Way back when George Bush (Senior) was getting ready to move on Kuwait, the same thing happened on every campus in Canada. Drove me crazy, but what can you do? Logic doesn't mean as much as emotion to a lot of people. Maybe these jokers at Carleton are the sons and daughters of those Birkenstock-wearing goofs(?) Which just goes to show you that these protests aren't going away any time soon.



They're on every campus I've ever seen (ok, admitidly not very many, but I assume). They're also in virtually every 'ethical' coffee shop, vegan restarant, and even in the sub-urbs! They're everywhere!

Life would be pretty boring if we didn't have losers to point and laugh at, eh? 

I don't know about you, but I don't want everyone to agree with me (no danger here), or have the same view as me. That'd be like talking to yourself, (which is fun in it's own right).


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## North Star (20 Sep 2005)

Ah, university students.

Speaking as someone who joined the CF at 17 and did a BA and MA, once my university peers graduated and started paying taxes, their views shifted very quickly from the political left to the centre right. Those who stayed in to do their PhDs are still on the left, and very rapidly becoming nothing more than Chomsky-quoting chatterboxes.

As an OCdt, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Or, if they get pushy, ask for their GPA. I think you'll find you're not dealing with the A team here.


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> ......   If you heard the stuff this girl was spouting off, I guarantee it would infuriate any CF member.   She was the dumbest, most irrational moron I have ever heard and she was actually getting support.   I mean....holy crap.



I could use a good chuckle this evening......what kind of crap was she spewing?


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## Steel Badger (20 Sep 2005)

I remember being at McMaster during Gulf War 1......

I remember clearly the "mass protest movement", the chanting , singing parades and the "peace-ins" not to mention the totally narrow minded viewpoint held by "open minded" anti war types...

There was ONE count 'em ONE violent incident.........and it occurred when a group of ferverent anti-war types took it upon themselves to rough up a lone pro-war guy......As I recall they sought to inform said "misguided fool" that they were on the side of peace....and righteousness......then proceeded to pummel him.,....


I also recall that they had a big "peace camp" on the Campus...chock full of folks doing their bit for peace and free-love....of course only on the campus where they couldnt be prosecuted.....

Funnily enough, a former member of my unit, then a long haired member of a rock band;  chose to hang out at the peace camp  for three reasons:

1. Free Beer

2. Free Love

3. Free Beer

And he said as much to the pro-activist CBC reporter that interviewed him.....

"naw man, I'm not here cause of the War..I'm just here for the Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll just like the rest of these guys"

Trouble is..he was exactly right....the whole thing was a sham........just a bunch of posers....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Sep 2005)

_1. Free Beer

2. Free Love

3. Free Beer_

Wow, I could protest just about anything for that line-up.......


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## Armymedic (20 Sep 2005)

NMPeters said:
			
		

> Don't sweat it. The CDS can hold his own against a group of ignorant 17 - 19 year olds. My guess is that he'll even take the time to try to educate them.



Heck, if they closed thier mouths for 5 mins to listen to him, it wouldn't even be a fair debate....


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## wongskc (21 Sep 2005)

George,

For your personal entertainment (or motivation to bash one's head against a convenient cinder block wall :warstory, here's a conversation I had today with a 'friend' of mine that goes to said university in question:


**WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS _IM_MATURE SUBJECT MATTER.**​
*Her:*	Uh ohh.  The military is in trouble
*Me:*	Over what?
*Her:*	Killing ppl
*Me:*	Um... In case you haven't heard... that's kinda why we have an army
*Her:*	You're bad
*Me:*	It's not like the army kills for fun and games
*Her:*	(sarcastic) Sure
*Me:*	Okay, explain your position
*Her:*	...
*Me:*	I'm still waiting
*Her:*	Paul Martin came on the news and it said he was in Gatineau, Quebec and I got so excited, and i was like OMG THATS NEAR ME.  But then i remember the PM lives a few blocks over from me.
*Me:*	Ah well isn't that swell.  So anyway, stop stalling and explain
*Her:*	No
*Me:*	Then you lose.  Thanks for playing.


I wouldn't take the hippie peace crowd too seriously over there.


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## FormerHorseGuard (21 Sep 2005)

during gulf war 1 way back in the 90s i was on a long term callout with lfca hq, had a friend going to thru  Humber for Photography. it was wonderful day  in toronto, freezing cold and they had a peace march at city  hall down town toronto. my  friend wanted to go to take pictures for class, i went along because i thought it might be interesting to see and i like taking pictures of funny  stuff downtown. 

here is what  i remember of the peace march

1) all the people wearing army  surplus winter clothes so they  could be warm.....various countries and canada's winter kit on so they  could be kept warm.
2) they  were passing around large buckets to toss money into and this was to fund the anti war movement. we could of bought a few new c7 s and bullets, and shot and buried the key  protesters with those buckets of money
3) watching guys i worked with from one of the HQ units running around taking pictures of the peace march, they  were all G2 people using it as a training exercise. learning to be uncover operators i guess or something
4) learned fast not to speak my  mind for fear of being targeted by  them as war loving freak of nature
5) most of them were followers and had no clue as to why  the world was upset and why  the US led forces were there to free the country  from Saddam the hero of the anti us movement
6) hotdogs went up in price for that  day  as it was the only  source of close and hot food 

but most all i remember my  friend william saying to me, this was more fun then going to shoot the nude female models the school were having in for the class to take pictures of.
7) next time I will go to the nude model event over a peace protest march because at least at the model shoot you know the subject might not be the smartest person in the room but she is there for a reason


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## ArmyRick (21 Sep 2005)

Ho hee ha. Talking to your average left wing protestor is like having an intelligent conversation with my youngest mini-schnauzer. I could talk to her all day long and at the end she will still bark at nothing and pointless things.

Protestors come in various breeds

(1) Protestor War-hate-ris; This species protest any military action taken by any NATO country but usually targets USA or UK and here in Canada the northern breed takes offence to any CF operation that is not the DART being deployed.

(2) Protestor Welfare-us; This species is probably a dying breed. The are usually recognized by long lives spent in collecting welfare and throw protest when told to do something like get a job because welfare cuts are coming soon.

(3) Protestor Globilization-is; This is a unique breed that usually appears at G7 summits and although they do not understand globalization they protest it anyways, this breed has a specific taste for OC (pepper) spray.

(4) Protestor Bush-eus and Protestor Harper-is; These two species of protestors are similar and sometimes overlap. They are characterized by their beleif that anything at all to do with Bush, Harper, Alberta or anything remotely conservative is automatically bad, bigotted, racist, pro-nazi and will turn their nation into the something akin to Emporer Palpatine's empire.

(5) Protestor Ridicolus; This breed is interesting. It could be some that feel someone is wrongfully convicted such as being associated with Al Queda and (How could that be bad?) or it could be some loving member of a criminal gunned by police fire and wonders why the police had to shoot because after all he only had a 12 inch knife... This species is not as frequently observed as the others.

(6) Protestor Poverty-is; This breed is known by its lead alpha male, John Clark, who comes to us from lovely old england to butt his nose in our affairs and wants VIOLENT demonstrations because each homeless bum is not entitled to $300,000 a year. How cruel of society to withold that money.


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## reccecrewman (21 Sep 2005)

You also have to take into account of this; these people are young snot nosed punks in college or university and have this grand notion that they're so smart and have a complete grasp on all matters in the world.  They're young, and probably out on their own for the first time and I think they feel that this is the "in" thing to do.  They've heard all the old stories of Berkeley in the '60's, the Kent State massacre by the US National Guard and dozens of other stories of protests in the 60's & 70's at colleges and universities all over N. America.  Get it?  This is something you HAVE to do when at an institution of higher learning!  :  When I went to College, I got a chuckle out of all the losers who were trying so hard to be "individuals", finding themsleves and breaking out of the "trendy" way they used to be in High School.  All of a sudden, GAP, Levi's & Billabong etc. etc. are no longer cool.  The name brand trend that you needed in high school to fit in and be cool is now uncool.  Value Village retro 70's clothes are now cool, domestic beer is not good enough, now they need to drink Heineken & Corona because Canadian & Blue are standard "normal" beers.  It's just a phase that they have to go through so they can grow up (hopefully) and have some stories for the grandkids about how they tried to change the world and make a difference.  :  It's been said before, I'll say it again.  Those of us in uniform took an oath to give these poor ignorant oafs the right to protest whatever the hell they want.  

It does irk me however, that good men have paid in blood and with their lives to give these imbeciles the right to protest against us.  We all know the risk that comes with being in the Military and yet still we go - without question.  These granola-munching morons go stand on parliament hill and cry out that they don't want to see our boys coming home in coffins draped in a Canadian Flag. (They actually think they're helping!)  Do these tree-hugging idiots actually believe that if we disbanded the Army and no longer sent troops overseas that all will be well in the world?  As if the whole ostrich-head-in-the-sand approach is going to work? Wake up fools and thank your stars that you have men & women willing to put the uniform on and go defend your rights.


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## George Wallace (22 Sep 2005)

So...today is 22 Sep 2005, and who is going to see Gen Hillier's presentation at Carlton U this evening?


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## jwsteele (22 Sep 2005)

You can bet I'm going...and I asked permission to wear uniform which I am going to wear with the pride, dignity, and the conduct of a CF officer.  I also wouldn't mind a chance to meet the CDS if possible and I wanted to present myself appropriately.  If those losers actually do disrupt his presentation...I think I might make like Superman, go and change into civvys and disrsupt the disruption.  Anyway, I'll let you all know about the presentation later this evening.

Jordan


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## Gramps (22 Sep 2005)

Yeah, thats a great idea. Charge into a group of civilians while in uniform. I am sure that at the very least you would leave a lasting impression on the CDS. Let us know how that all works out for you. Ha. That would be fine conduct for an Officer indeed.


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## paracowboy (22 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I think I might make like Superman, go and change into civvys and disrsupt the disruption.


I sincerely hope that's a joke.


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## dutchie (22 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I think I might make like Superman, go and change into civvys and disrsupt the disruption.   Anyway, I'll let you all know about the presentation later this evening.



Before attending, choose one of the following categories:

1-Civie - come dressed as such.

2-Soldier (ok, well, Officer Cadet) - act as such.

DO NOT CHANGE HALF WAY THROUGH!

EDIT: actually, you are bound by the CF Code of Service Discipline, which means you have to act like a soldier (or someone worthy of a Commission) whether in uniform or not. Don't make an arse of yourself.


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## George Wallace (22 Sep 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> _1. Free Beer
> 
> 2. Free Love
> 
> ...



But if any of this is happening...post photos    ;D


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## jwsteele (22 Sep 2005)

Tough crowd...obviously I'm not going to change clothes half way through a CDS speech to make an ass of myself.  Just joking around guys.  Seriously though...what do you guys think of wearing CF's to the speech?  If there is a chance to meet him I'd like to present myself properly.  Your thoughts?


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## dutchie (22 Sep 2005)

jwsteele said:
			
		

> Tough crowd...obviously I'm not going to change clothes half way through a CDS speech to make an *** of myself.   Just joking around guys.   Seriously though...what do you guys think of wearing CF's to the speech?   If there is a chance to meet him I'd like to present myself properly.   Your thoughts?



There's a good chance you'll look like a tool, but hey, have at 'er if you really want.

Wear a suit instead.


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## paracowboy (22 Sep 2005)

I wouldn't for the above reasons. Chances of meeting him are slim. Chances of getting involved in some sort of stupidity forced on you by an idiot are far greater. It's not worth it for you, or the CF. Go in appropriate civilian attire, and if you get an opportunity, shake the man's hand.


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## jwsteele (22 Sep 2005)

Agreed...I'll tell you guys how it goes.


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## jwsteele (22 Sep 2005)

It was a great presentation...90% of the attendees were in support although there were some very rude disturbances.  The CDS handled himself well.  Some moron asked him if he would resign...CDS response="No...next question (with a big grin)."  Some other dumbass asked how the CDS planned on handling the defense of Canada from the biggest WMD of all...American foreign policy.  His speech talked about the new threats, how we intended on handling them, and the priorities of the CF.  He received a standing ovation twice.  It was nice to see all the support.  The protestors lost this battle...they all looked like fools and I'm pretty sure they knew it too.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Sep 2005)

Perfect.....


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## Bomber (22 Sep 2005)

This was in my junk mail, don't even know why I pulled it out

<< please distribute to all your contacts, e-mail listservs, friends 
and lovers... thanks! GO GENERALS! >> 


Generals Against Democracy Who Want To Shoot All The Terrorist 
Scumbags (GADWWTSATTS) will be at Carleton University Thurs. Sept. 22 
to ask Gen. Rick Hillier to be our new leader. 

Why: because the head of Canada's military is giving a speech there at 
7:30 on "Canada's Military in a Dangerous New World" 

Please come out and support us... Hillier's talk is free and we need 
to (non-violently) confront him and his dangerous way of thinking. 
Canadians will not stand silently by while this Master of War spouts 
off at the mouth. We're going to be there to ask him some tough 
questions, and following that we're hoping to show a brilliant 
documentary in a room nearby. The documentary is called The Power of 
Nightmares (more info below). 

Please plan to attend this important event, and tell all your friends! 


brought to you by members of SCAW (see more details below) 



info about Hillier's talk at Carleton: 

Thursday Sept 22 
7:30 p.m. 
Alumni Theatre, Southam Hall 
Carleton University 
Admission is free 
Parking: pay and display, Lots 1, 2, 6 and the Library 
Garage 





GADWWTSATTS is going to be at Hillier's talk in order to invite him to 
be our leader... he'd be the perfect spokesperson. In fact, you could 
say we're almost like his fanclub. Go Generals! 




<< original e-mail sent to people about the idea for the event >> 

(Backgrounder for those who weren't out for beers Tuesday 
night: Gen. Hillier is speaking at Carleton Sept. 22 
about "Canada's military in a dangerous new world"... 
a few of us were thinking we should try to shut his 
talk down with non-violent civil disobedience, but 
we've changed our minds/hearts). 

We believe he has the right to free speech... 

But that doesn't mean we can't take the momentum away 
from him or his ideas. 

We are attempting to book a room nearby to where his talk is 
taking place. Our event will be organized/hosted by 
Generals Against Democracy Who Want To Shoot All The 
Terrorist Scumbags (GADWWTSATTS). We will dress up in 
army fatigues and then talk briefly about how we want to kill all the 
terrorist scumbags 
and that democracy is for weaklings, in reference to Canada's 
destruction of democracy in Haiti, for example. 

We will march around before Hillier starts talking 
and shout orders like "Shoot the terrorist scumbags" 
or "We love George W. Bush and his doctrine of illegal 
preemptive war". 

We will do this while handing out flyers telling 
people to come to our documentary screening which 
will begin at 10 p.m. 

The spoof event will be followed by a screening of 
the documentary "The Power of Nightmares" (which I 
will be getting a copy of, see info below), where we 
can hand out information about Canada's role in Haiti 
and the Bush Administration's new doctrine of 
preemptive nuclear weapon use. We will 
also have copies of the following article: 

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0806-25.htm 

And we will pose the question to people in 
attendance: who are the real terrorists in the world 
today, who is a bigger threat to world security? (The 
obvious answer is George W.). And the follow-up 
question is, why isn't Canada, or Hillier, or Allan 
Rock our rep. at the UN, working harder to stop the 
Bush Administration's insane policies and 
military-industrial-complex. 

Even Robert McNamara believes the U.S. is currently 
going too far: 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? context=viewArticle&code=MCN20050506&articleId=149 

We will ask Hillier what he thinks of McNamara's 
article, or at least hand out copies of it to people 
who listen to him talk. 

We will use the event to flyer/handbill and build momentum for the 
Sept. 24 action, "No To Bush's Wars" 

All war is terrorism... if we going to arrest the 
terrorists, we should arrest the generals and the 
heads of state, like Bush, who have dropped or have 
authorized the dropping of more bombs that have killed 
more people than any terrorists ever will. 

What about Bush's war crimes in Fallujah, what does 
Hillier have to say about them? 

***************************************

Pretty good story, I missed how Canada destroyed the Democratic process in Haiti though, I thought they did that themselves?  Must have been sleeping when it happened

Bomber tired, Bomber now watch Nanny 911*

*reference "equipment, what you carry" thread if this sounds like a strange ending to a post


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## Sabre1918 (23 Sep 2005)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> You also have to take into account of this; these people are young snot nosed punks in college or university and have this grand notion that they're so smart and have a complete grasp on all matters in the world.   They're young, and probably out on their own for the first time and I think they feel that this is the "in" thing to do.   They've heard all the old stories of Berkeley in the '60's, the Kent State massacre by the US National Guard and dozens of other stories of protests in the 60's & 70's at colleges and universities all over N. America.   Get it?   This is something you HAVE to do when at an institution of higher learning!   :   When I went to College, I got a chuckle out of all the losers who were trying so hard to be "individuals", finding themsleves and breaking out of the "trendy" way they used to be in High School.   All of a sudden, GAP, Levi's & Billabong etc. etc. are no longer cool.   The name brand trend that you needed in high school to fit in and be cool is now uncool.   Value Village retro 70's clothes are now cool, domestic beer is not good enough, now they need to drink Heineken & Corona because Canadian & Blue are standard "normal" beers.   It's just a phase that they have to go through so they can grow up (hopefully) and have some stories for the grandkids about how they tried to change the world and make a difference.   :   It's been said before, I'll say it again.   Those of us in uniform took an oath to give these poor ignorant oafs the right to protest whatever the heck they want.
> 
> It does irk me however, that good men have paid in blood and with their lives to give these imbeciles the right to protest against us.   We all know the risk that comes with being in the Military and yet still we go - without question.   These granola-munching morons go stand on parliament hill and cry out that they don't want to see our boys coming home in coffins draped in a Canadian Flag. (They actually think they're helping!)   Do these tree-hugging idiots actually believe that if we disbanded the Army and no longer sent troops overseas that all will be well in the world?   As if the whole ostrich-head-in-the-sand approach is going to work? Wake up fools and thank your stars that you have men & women willing to put the uniform on and go defend your rights.




Well said......Reccecrewman !


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## a_majoor (23 Sep 2005)

I'm sorry I missed the speech, but was at a higher prioraty function  

No matter what is said or done, many of these "protesters" are in the grip of some alternative view of reality and nothing, not even slamming airplanes into tall office towers, will make them change their minds. Horrifying as it seems, these events actually seem to have hardened the world views of many of these people.

Since they are inpervious to logic, facts or hard proof, short of dropping them into Jihadi controlled areas in the Sunni Triangle (where they can meet their heros on an up close and personal basis, and discover how they are REALLY viewed in that part of the world), there is nothing any of us can say or do to change their minds. They will either fall into the holes in their own logic, or eventually grow up and grow out of it.

BTW, they can't have Gen Hillier as leader of their organization, he is already leading mine!


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## Gdsm Chris (23 Sep 2005)

Hey all,
I'm just joining this site. I'm working on a Ph.D. at Carleton University in Ottawa. I'm a former member of the CGG.
Yesterday evening, the CDS, Gen Hillier came to deliver a lecture here at Carleton. I'm sure he was looking to give the lecture to a group of mature students seeking to learn something new. Instead, a small group of radicals came to disrupt the lecture, suggesting the CF is in league with the US policy of killing everything they see. Would you believe one student actually went up to a microphone during the Q&A period following the lecture, and his 'question' was to ask Gen Hillier to resign?
Why do people not seem to respect young men and women putting their own lives on the line to try and help rebuild countries like Afghanistan?
Are civilians with no military experience growing more disrespectful than they have in the past?
Glad to be here, hope to meet all of you on this site.
Take care,
Chris


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## 2 Cdo (23 Sep 2005)

I don't think kids on campus, or any civvies out there are any more or less respectful then years gone by. But what they might get, due to the internet and camcorders, is more coverage. It's been mentioned on another thread that with the university crowd it is a rite of passage to show disdain for anything construed as "right wing". It is only later after getting married, having kids and carrying a mortgage that they turn into that which they held in disdain. :'(
Just a lifelong maturing process.


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## armyvern (23 Sep 2005)

Gdsman Chris!!

Welcome aboard. Glad to have you!!


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## GO!!! (23 Sep 2005)

I agree with 2Cdo. 

As a regular visitor to several University campuses, and a former full time student, I see it all the time. I think that it is mostly because the right wing, and especially the military is such an easy target. It is simple to find fault with what the army is or is not doing, and simpler still to make flags, throw garbage and chant and yell in opposition to globalisation, logging, the war in Iraq etc. When you offer nothing but mindless, screaming opposition though, you can expect to be marginalised and ignored, as these fools were. 

My personal favorite is the video (available on Kazaa) of G8 protestors with "no blood for oil" signs being dropped off by their parents - in a Ford Excursion and a Denali. 

The flip side of the coin is that in a freedom based democracy (which we enjoy) soldiers exist to protect the rights of all the citizens of this nation, be they idiotic left wing peaceniks or the someone who has neglected to ever vote. They are exercising their constitutional rights, which we exist to protect, even when it is distasteful.

Look on the bright side, US troops returning from Vietnam were spat upon, war amps were laughed at etc. We pay Gen Hillier the big bucks, and he is a smart dude, so  he can handle some clown who could'nt summarise foreign policy with a copy of the economist in front of  him asking for his job!


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## North Star (23 Sep 2005)

Welcome to the forum Chris,

I have to agree with 2 Cdo... I was a grad student at UofT and spent probably way too much time there then is healthy, but noticed that trend. As an undergrad, it's hip to be "against the establishment" and to revel in dying/dead Marxist or neo-Marxist ideology. The minute they graduate, start paying taxes, and worry about their kids being blown up they begin to swing the other way... 

I found there were many students, however, who made an effort despite the crushingly left-wing atmosphere to learn about the military. They just don't show up in the protestor mob that student "leaders" mobilize to try and harass people.  Quite frankly, I always viewed those student "leaders" as dudes trying to get laid by hippie-chicks and not anywhere close to the intellectual "A-Team" of the university in question. 

I bet you that General Hillier had fun with it. From my limited experience with him, he doesn't seem to be someone easily intimidated by anyone.


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## EW (23 Sep 2005)

I think the increased positive media coverage -I consider positive media coverage to be anything that at least reminds Canadians of where their troops are working on their behalf- has resulted in a much increased positive profile for the CF.   Especially when compared to 10-years ago.

As for some folks at an university campus asking our CDS to resign.   Good on them for exercising their right to speak freely without fear of retribution.   I don't agree with them of course, but I certainly think that we live in a society where things should be questioned, even if I don't agree with the question.

Today's Ottawa Citizen made mention of the CDS' visit, and the direct questions put to the CDS, by that small group.   The Citizen also noted that when the CDS was asked if he would resign, he walked back to the mike and simply said "NO..." which was met by a loud and sustained applause from the audience.   

Good on him.  What a great country we live in.


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## North Star (23 Sep 2005)

Lol...don't worry Piper. Most of the left-wingers at the protest are nowhere near being "leaders of tomorrow". The minute they graduate they'll get crappy-paying retail/bottom-of-the-heap-information-age  data processing jobs. That's all I was offered on civvy-street with my BA (lol...in History granted). What got me jobs wasn't my education but the extracurricular student political stuff (nope, not organizing protests) and my CF accomplishments. Most of my buddies with BAs are still un or under-employed, while I came to my senses and joined the Reg F (or maybe lost them, but I don't think I can stand civvy-street anymore).

If I ever had to hire somebody, I'd quite frankly completely ignore the University stuff and concentrate on everything else. I've met more dynamic, strong-willed, and generally "with-it" people in the CF than I did at University, and the UofT had more people....


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## x-grunt (23 Sep 2005)

North Star said:
			
		

> Welcome to the forum Chris,
> 
> I found there were many students, however, who made an effort despite the crushingly left-wing atmosphere to learn about the military. They just don't show up in the protestor mob that student "leaders" mobilize to try and harass people.



Yep, that's my experience too. Many were interested and willing to be educated. There are always left wing (and right wing) party-line types who are inflexible morons, but most students will dialogue and listen, if approached with respect for their starting viewpoint. At U of T anyways. As another poster said on another thread, most students are more anti-bush, vs. anti-CF.

And I work in a social service environment with many decidedly left-leaning types, and most of them are quite okay with the military. No one is really anti-CF, just anti-violence. 

I was in in the late 70's early 80's, and I have to say that people seem to have a bit more respect now. We've never had a military-aware culture, except in wartime, so I'd say that we are doing okay.


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## Cpl.Banks (23 Sep 2005)

Welcome aboard, anyways I saw the lecture and it was pretty interesting to see them actually ask Gen. Hillier to resign, they were met by a cheer once the CDS said very simply...No.HA! But anyways it was pretty interesting to watch and it looked like he was having fun telling a few jokes here and there.And who knew he was a Leafs fan?!   
UBIQUE!!!


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## CADPAT SOLDIER (23 Sep 2005)

Is Hiller coming through Winnipeg to speak anytime soon?


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## Cloud Cover (23 Sep 2005)

I think its a mistake to confuse "civilians" with the radicalized left in universities, especially eastern Canadian universities. Most Canadians are far more honest than them...

My 0.02, FWIW.


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## mainerjohnthomas (23 Sep 2005)

I had the interesting experence of being a soldier and student at the same time.  Getting back from an ex days late due to being detatched from my own unit to help some poor sig-less PPCLI out, I had to go straight from Base to class to write an exam, having secured the OK from my OC to go in uniform (SOP was you required permission to go in public in uniform) as my civvies were still on their way back from Wainwright.  To wear a uniform on a (just) pre Gulf-War Canadian campus is to know how the first black students felt.  Every eye was upon me, and the looks ranging from dissaproval to outright horror were somewhat comical.  The idea that any soldier would be seen in a place of higher learning, seemed mind blowing.  It is interesting that this attitude was in place at a University who owes half of its buildings to WWII expansion.


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## Meridian (23 Sep 2005)

Im seeing it all the time in my (undergrad) third year International Human Rights class here in Montreal already, and its week 3.   People just don't have a clue.  They approach the sessions and explanations of the workings of all the IGOs as being worthless because they have zero power to enforce... they argue constantly that the western world doesnt care, and they constantly debate the value of anything organized and official in the international political realm as being worthless because it has allowed things to pass.

People have stated that they dont understand why we have a UDHR if Sudan has been allowed to happen... they claim they feel the "UDHR" is bankrupt if these things dont happen... When you try to explain to them that Sudan wouldn't mean anything if you didnt have a common understanding of what was "good and bad" such as the UN Declaration on Human Rights, they get defensive and clearly are lost.


The problem is that many of the students in today's campuses are so worked up about getting worked up that they fail to take a broader look at the picture. Not enough people can argue both sides of any issue anymore - people are too used to focussing solely on what they feel in their hearts, without stopping to consider the other side. Essentially, logic has failed.

I was a Carleton student last year, and watched the lecture on CPAC today, and noted teh conspicuous cutoff of the Q&A period....    that said, it just goes to show you the general feelings of  so-called educated youth in this country as to the value of our military.


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## ArmyRick (24 Sep 2005)

North Star, good point. Although we see these university protest, I guess we must remember that it doesn't represent 100% of the student body and their will always be good men and women who will take a stand for whats right and beleive in our Forces.


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## teddy49 (24 Sep 2005)

I've gotta say, that I subscribe to David Grossman's theory of Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves.  Generally the sheep don't like to be reminded that there is a requirement for sheepdogs.  Until the wolves come along.

Just my $0.02


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## Springroll (24 Sep 2005)

I think it depends on the persons upbringing in many cases. My children, for instance, have a huge amount of respect for those that serve in the CF, both past and present. I have taken it upon myself to raise them to be respectful to all. When you have parents that do not care, you have kids that don't either. It all comes down to leading by example. If you are respectful when talking to others and in the way you treat others, your kids will see this and do the same. When you have parents that don't even take the time with their kids, that is when you have the little punks running around in wannabe gangs causing problems.

A prime example is when I was working with an elderly lady privately. I brought my kids along one day(she loved kids) and they sat there, called her mam(until she told them to call her by her name), chatted with her about her roots and even got her a cup of tea. They were shown by me(and my husband) on how to treat people, and they continue to be that way. My little old lady that i was taking care of had nothing but great thigns to say about them and she even went so far to say that it is nice to see parents raising their kids properly.

I respect the right of citizens to be angry, but many of them are angry at the wrong people. The military is out there doing a job and helping another country, but they forget that. All they seeon the tv and in the papers is people cammed up and carrying rifles. They do not hear about the dangers these people are having to deal with while also trying to help rebuild a country. What would these same people say if Canada ended up being like Afghanistan?


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## Barek (24 Sep 2005)

I just wanted to echo Springroll's comments.

My parents immigrated from Holland when they were 3 and 4. They were born shortly after WWII. But they raised me well and Remembrance Day always held a big place in my heart and it does even more so now that I was sworn in this past friday. I was always raised to respect others and now that value, among others, carries me into service for this great country.  

But something I have noticed growing up in a mostly Dutch community of immigrants and the next generation or two after. Holland still remembers, they will always remember what was done for them by Canada. They still send tulips for the tulip festival to Ottawa (i believe, didn't research this but i know they did previous years), they provided money to build part of the NAC in Ottawa, and the little things that I find out reading books of a lady in Holland that still brings flowers 60 years after the war to the graves of some of the Canadian Soldiers she knew or the man who still maintains the graves of the Canadians in Holland because he remembers them liberating him when he was a boy. Or my girlfriends grandfather who remembers the Canadians meeting with the local German commander to be allowed to fly food in for the Dutch. 

It is nice that I have a heritage of people that remember and are still grateful 60 years later for what was done for them in this day and age where I find that most young folk and middle-aged folk have no interest or care at all for history.


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## BDTyre (24 Sep 2005)

Last time I walked past the booths at the annual career day the school I attended sets-up, there were lots of people seemingly interested in the CF (and CSIS too).


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## career_radio-checker (24 Sep 2005)

I did a google search and found the protestors website

http://ottawa.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/1526.shtml


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## Fry (24 Sep 2005)

Gdsm Chris said:
			
		

> Why do people not seem to respect young men and women putting their own lives on the line to try and help rebuild countries like Afghanistan?



I agree totally with you had to say. I do agree that many civillians are very disrespectful as well as.... uneducated about the total situation. Many tend to believe what CNN tells them. 

Rebuild Afghanistan? It was never built, lol.


A good thread nevertheless. Thanks for informing us on that talk!


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## Spr.Earl (24 Sep 2005)

Gdsm Chris said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> I'm just joining this site. I'm working on a Ph.D. at Carleton University in Ottawa. I'm a former member of the CGG.
> Yesterday evening, the CDS, Gen Hillier came to deliver a lecture here at Carleton. I'm sure he was looking to give the lecture to a group of mature students seeking to learn something new. Instead, a small group of radicals came to disrupt the lecture, suggesting the CF is in league with the US policy of killing everything they see. Would you believe one student actually went up to a microphone during the Q&A period following the lecture, and his 'question' was to ask Gen Hillier to resign?
> Why do people not seem to respect young men and women putting their own lives on the line to try and help rebuild countries like Afghanistan?
> ...



Some of us here are old enough to remember Viet Nam and there are some here who served there and the same happened back in the 60's and 70's.Nothing new.


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## ChopperHead (25 Sep 2005)

Ya I totally agree with everything in this thread alot of the disrespect comes from HighSchool Where people are rebelious and Left wing because It's seen as being cool. Ie all the "BAD BOY" characters in movies are always fighting against the Government and The Establishment. Another Big thing that alot kids talk about is Anarchy for the most part they dont even understand they just think it's cool to say that and wear the sybol and whatever else. this is behaviour is deveoped in highschool and carries on to college if you were to show up at an elemantry school and talk to the kids hell even just walk in there in uniform to pick up your kids all you would get are kids who are interested and think that it's the coolest thing and want to join the army and have a zillion questions. At my highschool when the military showed up to give out info and stuff at lunch time there was like 15 people that whent to the booth to check it out. there was 1800 kids at my school just to kinda give some references but I talked to people after and they said they thought it was cool so I ask them why didnt they go check it out then and they just kinda shruged it off but I know why It's because they dont want to be seen as being interested in the army. Cause they dont want to be made fun of. At my grade 8 grad when they tell everyone what you want to do and everything people laughed at me when I said I wanted to join the military. It's just all messed up but it goes the same for everything like girls starving themselves because of cosmo girls and teen magazine or whatever else but I wont get into that. Adults are respecting the military more these days and thats why I voted  that the military is getting more respected these days as apossed to a few years ago simply because the public is getting more aware and starting to relise what is going on out there A perfect reflection of this is the increase in defense funding by LIBERALS and TV shows being devoted to the Canadian military and they are in the news things are starting to get better alittle anyway but we still got along way to go. My wrists are getting sore ya thats my 2 cents.

Kyle


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## Spr.Earl (25 Sep 2005)

Kyle it's good the hear from some one in Gr. 8 and from all of places Prince George.
You are what 13,14?
I commend you on your open and hounest post.
I have the same replies at where I work even today and I'm just going on 30yrs in the Militia.
It's a certain way of life that only a few like and are suited for that even includes the Militia.

Thanks for your open and hounest thoughts and just go for it if you feel it's right for you.


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## ChopperHead (25 Sep 2005)

Actually im 17 Im in Grade 12 right now so next summer Im hoping to join up. i just noticed I didnt do to much grammer so If it bothers anyone I'll modify my post and put into paragraphs I was just kinda talking in my head when I wrote so I wasnt really even thinking about punctuation. 



Kyle


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## Springroll (25 Sep 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> they just kinda shruged it off but I know why It's because they dont want to be seen as being interested in the army. Cause they dont want to be made fun of.
> Kyle



This is so true Kyle!!
My husband wanted to join the military before he even finished high school, and many "bullies" harassed him for it. When you look at his graduating class, there are very few that are successful, and there are one or two people that are making what he makes, or more. The one bully that really used to get to him is a gas jockey now...and he got to fill up our rental SUV a couple years ago ;D My hubby said that was the best "revenge" he could ever have asked for. Karma is a biatch sometimes.

Moral of the story..who cares what others think. If it is something you want to do, do it.


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## DG-41 (25 Sep 2005)

Small world there Kyle. My hometown is Quesnel, 70 km south of you.

Anyway, this sort of behaviour is nothing new, and is pretty much par for the course at most universities. Kids think they know pretty much everything, they have an answer for every question, and they tend to think in absolutes. This is independant of political stripe; I was pretty hardcore right-wing when I was younger, and now I'm a touch left of centre.

Espousing a cause and defending it vigourously is part of growing up, and a good sign. Far better that they live a little and get involved in the world than just tune out and coast through.

The other thing to consider is this - I've never met Gen Hillier, but I've known a few generals, and you don't make general if you can't speak in public and hold your own in debate. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of those radicals came out of that meeting with aspects of their worldview challenged when the person they expected to be a warmongering Phillistine turned out to be someting else entirely.

DG


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## George Wallace (25 Sep 2005)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I did a google search and found the protestors website
> 
> http://ottawa.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/1526.shtml



Pretty sh*tty fonts on that site.   Hard to read.   I did like the comment at the bottom in their " Make a quick comment on this article >>" slot.   





> holy f*@k you're stupid people
> 24.09.2005 - 09:42
> Welcome to the federal socialist union of norther canuckistan, eh.
> bob>


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## Fry (25 Sep 2005)

ChopperHead said:
			
		

> Ya I totally agree with everything in this thread alot of the disrespect comes from HighSchool Where people are rebelious and Left wing because It's seen as being cool. Ie all the "BAD BOY" characters in movies are always fighting against the Government and The Establishment. Another Big thing that alot kids talk about is Anarchy for the most part they dont even understand they just think it's cool to say that and wear the sybol and whatever else. this is behaviour is deveoped in highschool and carries on to college if you were to show up at an elemantry school and talk to the kids heck even just walk in there in uniform to pick up your kids all you would get are kids who are interested and think that it's the coolest thing and want to join the army and have a zillion questions. At my highschool when the military showed up to give out info and stuff at lunch time there was like 15 people that whent to the booth to check it out. there was 1800 kids at my school just to kinda give some references but I talked to people after and they said they thought it was cool so I ask them why didnt they go check it out then and they just kinda shruged it off but I know why It's because they dont want to be seen as being interested in the army. Cause they dont want to be made fun of. At my grade 8 grad when they tell everyone what you want to do and everything people laughed at me when I said I wanted to join the military. It's just all messed up but it goes the same for everything like girls starving themselves because of cosmo girls and teen magazine or whatever else but I wont get into that. Adults are respecting the military more these days and thats why I voted   that the military is getting more respected these days as apossed to a few years ago simply because the public is getting more aware and starting to relise what is going on out there A perfect reflection of this is the increase in defense funding by LIBERALS and TV shows being devoted to the Canadian military and they are in the news things are starting to get better alittle anyway but we still got along way to go. My wrists are getting sore ya thats my 2 cents.
> 
> Kyle



I agree that it IS becomming more respected to a point... but kids in school still show great disrespect and dishonor for the military and the events surrounding it. This is what I have noticed. Our school had about 120kids when I went there a few years back. The CF showed up and there were 3 people that went to the booth at lunchtime. 2 of them wanted to know 'all about their assault rifles and grenades, and if they had any in the back of their truck so they could get their weapons in advance'. I was the other one, who's interest solely was on how do I join, what do I have to do to join. That's it. So, the guys there seemed very interested in giving me advice, and when class started, I decided to skip half an hour to talk to the guys as they were packing up, etc. They seemed like a great bunch of knowledgable, disciplined people. After I shook hands with them all, they told me that the choice I was going to make.... I wouldn't regret it.

A few years passed and I graduated highschool. The guidance counsellor kinda sold my parents the idea of college and university, and those choices being decent ones, I knew it wasn't really for me. After 2 years of pissing around in university, I said, enough is enough, I'm joining the CF like I should have from the start.

Point being, I'm very surprised that even for smaller numbers of students, the turnout's very small, like 1 or 2 percent of the whole school attending the booth.


As for the disrespect I previously mentioned, NONE of the students really supported Remembrance Day. During the assembly, the old, kind war veterans would get up and speak, people would be talking, not paying attention... picking at each other. To many of the vets, I could see that this saddened them, somewhat. No one would buy poppies, no one really wants to support the local Legion anymore(we have to do a big load of fundraisers on a constant basis)... and this is kind of sad.

I think that the adults of today are STARTING to respect the military more, because more adults tend to watch the news and keep up with events that are currently happening, unlike the majority of the kids in school. During the services held by our honorable war vets at the war memorial a few commmunities down, there are very few people who turn up. The last Remembrance Day ceremony, despite the fog and cold drizzle, the old war veterans still held the service, just as proud as they were when they joined the military many years ago. We had about 20 people attend the ceremony, myself and the verterans included. The only factor that stopped some of the vets was sickness. The turnout for civillians...this is just unacceptable.

Why do I think this is happening? For a few reasons. Canada hasn't been really involved in a MAJOR conflict in quite some time. There aren't many members in the CF as it is(It should be bigger, but I'm not gonna open another can of worms). Less families (well around here anyway) have members that serve in the CF and well... they just don't really care about what's happening. More and more parents are advising their children that joining the CF isn't logical... That the sense of pride is worth nothing because apparently, you will most likely end up dead.

To elaborate on the reason that we haven't been involved in a MAJOR conflict... or any conflict direct to our country. Even today, we haven't had any major terrorist attack against us, like bombings or plane hi-jackings. Many people that I know think we're 100% safe, because we are a 'peaceful country that doesn't kill people'.  Therefore they go about their daily business, thinking that nothing will ever happen... Uneducated about what our CF does, and what it does to make this country a safe place to live in.

/end rant


All I know is that the youngsters, 19 and younger pretty much just don't care about the CF... past, current, or possible future conflicts. And many of those interested, just want the guns, grenades, tanks, and to kill people. 

This is what I've noticed anywho. Totally opinion.

If ya don't believe me, prehaps I should take a video of the next Remembrance Day assembly at the school. Y'all can see for yourself! Oh wait.. I'll be in BMQ! ;D


----------



## steve-o (25 Sep 2005)

That really burns my ass! Ever since I was a university student and at the same time, a reservist, there was that same element of un-enlightened fools who tried to disrupt things and ruin them for others. The Israely prime-minister came to speak at my school and the Arab population put a stop to it even though 90% of the students wanted to hear him whether they agreed with his countries policies or not. That is a whole other ball game I suppose. These jack-asses whom you speak of do not have deeply rooted issues such as those who broke up the speech by the Israely prime-minister, these people, I feel, have no genuine beliefs and feel it mandatory to be against something, and the military is a good and easy target. I suppose one has the luxury of having all these 'ideas' in university, but when they join the real world, it's funny who quickly they change. Classless and ignorant, and yet they probably feel high-minded and in the know in a world sense.
'


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## ArmyRick (25 Sep 2005)

Common war slogans and my responses.

"Make babies, not war" The world is over populated.

"1,2,3,4 we don't want your stinking war" And how else do you get rid of bad people (not just in fairy tales, they do exist.

"War, what is it good for?" If you have shares in any defence industry, well you do the math and again bad people go bye bye.

"All we are saying is give peace a chance" We did. We tried. Many times. Al Queda was the ones to smash planes into towers. Not us. Just responding in an appropriate fashion.


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## Gdsm Chris (25 Sep 2005)

Steve-o, are you from Concordia and a reservist? Do we know each other?
Chris


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## Reccesoldier (25 Sep 2005)

Working shifts at NDHQ and taking courses at Carleton at the same time meant that on several occasions I'd show up for class in CadPat. The thing that got me was the absolute ignorance of the vast majority about the CF.

I had one girl ask me if the GGFG, (who use Carleton U grounds as a training spot during the summer) were there because of the Iraq war, in case there were protests at the University.    I laughed and assured her that "we" would keep our jack-boots to ourselves.  :

The ignorance realy doesn't surprise me all that much though to tell you the truth. The crse I was taking was called "Global Political Issues" but I began to refer to it as "The Leftist diatribes". From Fannon to Chomsky and Warring almost every single reading assignment came from the far left of the spectrum. The authors made statements like "The UN has designed a system to kill people" (Waring--- talking about the UN System of National Accounts). These falsehoods were passed off as the gospel and many of the students swallowed it, hook, line sinker, rod, reel and boat.

Another thing to remember is that critical analysis is not the strong point of most people. They believe what they are told, what they read or what they are spoon fed by the media. This is doubly true for people right out of high school who have been fed one diet or the other both at home and at school for their entire lives.

To be fair though I was never treated with outright hostility.

One thing I did notice though was that Immigrant students were much less standoffish than Canadian born students. Weird.


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## career_radio-checker (25 Sep 2005)

Now in all fairness its important to look at all sides of an arguement. I took the pleasure to google a couple of these protest groups and see what facts they bring to the table.

http://www.yayacanada.com/hillier.html

If these students and their inability to research information which is readily available, are going to graduate from Carleton University, then I vote Carleton be redubed "Last chance U"


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## Gdsm Chris (25 Sep 2005)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> Now in all fairness its important to look at all sides of an arguement. I took the pleasure to google a couple of these protest groups and see what facts they bring to the table.
> 
> http://www.yayacanada.com/hillier.html
> 
> If these students and their inability to research information which is readily available, are going to graduate from Carleton University, then I vote Carleton be redubed "Last chance U"



It's true. It's just a shame that all of us are going to suffer for it, including the troops that attend Carleton as well.

As for what Reccesoldier said, that made me smile. My introduction to Carleton was back in the summer of 2001, not through academics, but because I was a member of the Canadian Grenadier Guards at the time, doing Ceremonial Guard. So you might say I got to know Carleton as a soldier before I got to know it as a student. Now, being back here four years later, doing my Ph.D., it was a special treat (and a ton of nostalgia) to see people here over the summer that still remained from back in my day. And yet, even though they're in plain sight, people don't take the time to do the proper research or ask the right questions. They still think that Ceremonial Guard is comprised of people who are not 'real' soldiers, and that their weapons are not real. Let alone that a ton of the troops from CG have been on tour, and that our weapons on parade are the same ones we bring to the ranges or on an FTX.

2332Piper, good on you. Keep it up!

It's hard to judge, because you can't hold it against people who don't know to begin with. You'd just think that people would do research or ask questions before coming to ridiculous conclusions of their own. It just goes back to that matter of respect.


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## Gayson (25 Sep 2005)

At my school I've never really seen a lot of left wing people protest the CF or generally act stupid.  Everyone at my school knows what I do and yet none of the arrogant questions or remarks I've received over my career came from anyone at my College.

I suppose it's a University thing, or perhaps varies from campus to campus.


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## sam (26 Sep 2005)

This is so strange reading this stuff.   I'm an ex soldier and happened on to your site and this talk is so familiar.   Who ever edits this took out another word for national socialist, but it is ok, to threaten to kill hippies.

Look, almost the moment I left the military   - I was in six really fun years - I went directly into activists circles.   That was...20 years ago.

Man, you guys would get much more interesting conversations with "Rabble.ca"

I saw some pretty disgusting things in the military by soldiers.   Somalia didn't surprise me.The murder of a homeless .MODERATOR EDIT: From what I read of you in those Trenton Newspapers, you would be the first to scream   "innocent untill proven guilty"..I notice when the men involved are not of your ilk that theory goes out the window. Do us a favour and keep your predjuces to yourself.

My point is that I know that their are solid working class families in the military who sincerely believe in what the Canadian Forces stand for.   Just as their are people like me who blockade NDHQ or ARM-X or something...remember guys, you arn't a threat to us activists.   Do you really want to be?   Scary.

Canada is kinda like the Polish contingent in the Iraq "Co-alition of the Willing" for christ's sake...

Now Quebec City...that was blast, eh?


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## 48Highlander (26 Sep 2005)

...

what the hell WAS that?

kinda like a drive-by heckling.  "your mother wears army boots!" yelled out of a car window.


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## GO!!! (26 Sep 2005)

Someone was speaking about the bottom third earlier, this guy sounds like someone who could'nt hack it in the reserves, and then changed units twice (see profile) as his c o c and peers figured out what a clown he was.

Well sammy boy, you just keep doing what your doing, and at the end of the day (or your life) try to quantify what you've accomplished. 

Did you implement any measures to solve the problems you live in opposition to? or did you just live in mindless, screaming opposition to them?

Would you be able to identify yourself without something to protest against?

I laugh, knowing that while I settle down with my family to enjoy the fruits of my labour and wise investments, you are sleeping in a dingy housing collective, wearing a "black spot" wardrobe and reading copies of Adbusters stolen from the local Chapters.

But hey, thats why I'm going to to Wainwright for a month - in an hour - so you can oppose me and my "disgusting things" that I do.

Rock On!


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## George Wallace (26 Sep 2005)

A few people have posted this already...... This post by Sig_Des in "A Canadian Soldier-Good Poems" http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/20094.0.html
should make the statement many of us feel about this matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the soldier, not the reporter
who has given us the freedom of press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us the freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
whose coffin is draped by the flag,
and who allows the protester to burn the flag.

"The Soldier"~ by Charles M. Province


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## from darkness lite (26 Sep 2005)

I'm sitting here in Afghanistan, having THE TOUR OF MY LIFE, and what do I do, read a post by Sam.  Well Sam you have the right to protest however I hope you're not deluding yourself by thinking your protests are in MY best interest.  I, along with 99% of us here, want to be here.  And you know what, I sleep well at night because I KNOW we're doing the right thing.

As for your comments that Somalia and the Moss Park murder didn't surprise you, you're definitely in the minority on this forum.  Those crimes sickened and surprised most, if not all, current serving members of the Armed Forces.

Have a nice day (brought to you by those who help you sleep safely at night because we're ready to visit violence on those who would do you harm!!!!)

FDL


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

Sam - thanks for the drive by trolling 

 So by your admission you got out 20 years ago - served 6 years (3 of which was reserve) in at least three units...
Even IF you had insightings into the military ethos 1985 is a way back too far to have any current perspective 

Thanks for coming out
 :


That said I am rather unimpressed with the professionalism of some of my serving brothers here.  
As far as protestors go, just Dial I for Ignore, and reaction will be the wrong one.


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## NavComm (26 Sep 2005)

Hmmm I visited that link to indymedia that was posted here and it seems to me that some people from this site have taken it upon themselves to post some very nasty comments over there.

I thought that was grounds for getting 'verbal warnings' on army.ca? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that once that link was posted here, several comments were made over there that reflect badly on this site.

As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Sep 2005)

NavComm said:
			
		

> Hmmm I visited that link to indymedia that was posted here and it seems to me that some people from this site have taken it upon themselves to post some very nasty comments over there.
> 
> I thought that was grounds for getting 'verbal warnings' on army.ca? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that once that link was posted here, several comments were made over there that reflect badly on this site.
> 
> As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.



i took the opportunity to post what I thought as a polite post, though I think that is a "third party' site is it not - not actually run by the Generals For Shooting Hillier or whatever?  Anyway, I didn't mention army.ca.  Just wanted to put something up there that didn't look it was written by a mental defective, as some of the other "fuck you civvie" posts seemed to do.


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## 48Highlander (26 Sep 2005)

NavComm said:
			
		

> As it's been stated on this thread, they have the right to protest and it's us that defends that right. Whether we agree with their politics or not, they aren't worth beating up and they sure aren't worth posting reactionary comments on their website that just make us look like a bunch of thugs IMHO.



So...they have the right to protest...but we don't?

I dunno about you, but I'm not interested in fighting for their freedom of speech if it means I have to loose all right to mine.


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## bridges (26 Sep 2005)

It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.  The post that started this whole thread was unfortunate in its virulence, but the discussion itself is important!

I think it's great that people protest - noone among us can claim a perfectly balanced knowledge of society and all its ills, and people expressing themselves from their various perspectives makes our country stronger in the long run, IMO.


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## Kyle (26 Sep 2005)

bridges said:
			
		

> It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.  The post that started this whole thread was unfortunate in its virulence, but the discussion itself is important!
> 
> I think it's great that people protest - noone among us can claim a perfectly balanced knowledge of society and all its ills, and people expressing themselves from their various perspectives makes our country stronger in the long run, IMO.



I agree. We may not necessarily share the opinions of those who protest what we do (though I believe that there is a degree of validity to what they say, even if they say it in a distasteful way), but dissidence is a sign of a healthy democracy. If ever Canada came to a point where people felt that they couldn't protest (such as is happening in the US, where protestors are being labelled "unpatriotic"), I would feel that I had failed as a soldier. Failed to uphold one of the fundamental freedoms that our society holds most valuable. Failed to prevent Canada from becoming a nation of repression.


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2005)

Kyle said:
			
		

> I agree. We may not necessarily share the opinions of those who protest what we do (though I believe that there is a degree of validity to what they say, even if they say it in a distasteful way), but dissidence is a sign of a healthy democracy. If ever Canada came to a point where people felt that they couldn't protest (such as is happening in the US, where protestors are being labelled "unpatriotic"), I would feel that I had failed as a soldier. Failed to uphold one of the fundamental freedoms that our society holds most valuable. Failed to prevent Canada from becoming a nation of repression.



Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...   and somewhat subversive -- it takes away from the troops, erodes their resolve and makes them second guess - a surefire way to kill them even if you do not press the trigger yourself.

 Once a nation takes a fateful steup into war their is only victory or defeat -- the nation requires solidarity.  It is a Time for action not for words.


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## reccecrewman (27 Sep 2005)

Sam, sam, sam........................ You and your kind just don't get it do you? You really don't!  You and everyone like you goes to the protests and the rallies, trying to urge our politicians to take a spot sitting on the fence being spineless and indecisive.  The hippies and tree-huggers paint us war mongers who only want to go kill, loot and raze.  Guess what? These extremist groups want YOU and all your protesting buddies just as dead as they'd like to see us!!!!!  How many soldiers were in the World Trade Centre towers????  Get this much straight, they brought the fight to North American soil, they attack CIVILIAN targets all across the globe.  WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!!!


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## Sabre1918 (27 Sep 2005)

A few good quotes to think about... 

A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety,
is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free,
unless made and kept so by the exertions and blood of better
men than himself.

John Stuart Mill


The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the
people who are evil, but because of the people who don't
do anything about it.

Albert Einstein


There is no record in history of a nation that ever gained
anything valuable by not being able to defend itself.

H.L. Mencken


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## Fraser.g (27 Sep 2005)

I came across this site a while back and thought it fit with the current discussion

GF

http://www.protestwarrior.com/


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## bridges (5 Oct 2005)

Just a philosophical reflection on KevinB's comment, and how it fits into this thread:



> Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...



So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?  If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?  I sure hope not.  That's not the country I signed up to defend.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2005)

bridges said:
			
		

> Just a philosophical reflection on KevinB's comment, and how it fits into this thread:





			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...





			
				bridges said:
			
		

> So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?   If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?   I sure hope not.   That's not the country I signed up to defend.



Are you sure you are an officer in the Canadian Forces?   In time of war you are bound by your Oath as a member of the CF.   I highly doubt that any form of protest made by a member of the CF would be considered anything else than one of several things; all bad.   Worse case scenario would be Treason, followed by Desertion and Insubordination, and by Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the CF.   Then there is "Prejudice to the Good Order and Discipline.   If those are your true feelings, please hand in your Commission now.


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## bridges (5 Oct 2005)

George Wallace, that response is based on several incorrect assumptions.   Furthermore, it comes across as an attack against my professionalism and an insult to NCMs - although I'm sure you didn't mean it that way.



> Are you sure you are an officer in the Canadian Forces?   In time of war you are bound by your Oath as a member of the CF.   I highly doubt that any form of protest made by a member of the CF would be considered anything else than one of several things; all bad.   Worse case scenario would be Treason, followed by Desertion and Insubordination, and by Conduct Unbecoming a Member of the CF.   Then there is "Prejudice to the Good Order and Discipline.   If those are your true feelings, please hand in your Commission now.



_*IF*_ you had read my previous posts on this topic, you would know that I am supporting the right of Canadian citizens in general to protest what the government is doing, _*AND*_ that I maintain that as members of the CF *we* are obliged to act with restraint and impartiality.   I didn't say that _*I*_ wanted to protest or that CF members should be protesting - I said that _*OTHER CANADIANS*_ should be allowed to.     

As for handing in my commission, well... I was a Senior NCO before becoming an officer, and during that part of my career I was also subject to the same high standards of conduct and professionalism that are expected of all in uniform.   To say otherwise is an insult to all of our fine NCMs. 

As far as the topic at hand goes, I still think that Canadian citizens, _except those in the CF_, should not be considered any less patriotic if they feel it's their civic duty to protest what their government is doing, even if their government is at war.   The US is full of people who don't support the war in Iraq, but vocally support the troops - it's not that hard a concept.     If Canada turned into a country that tried to silence its protestors, I would find that far more ominous than any threat from outside our borders.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2005)

Perhaps you would like to reread your own post; as that is the impression I got from your comments, expressing your views on KevinB's post.     :


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## bridges (5 Oct 2005)

Okay, it's a good point to raise because sometimes people don't realize how they come across, and I am as guilty of that as the next person.  Let's take a look at it.

Here's what KevinB said:



> Protesting once you are in a War is unpatriotic...   and somewhat subversive -- it takes away from the troops



And, here's what I said:



> So ... is this the "either you're with us or your against us" school of thought?  If you disagree with the government and are exercising what you feel is your duty as a citizen to say so, does that make you any less Canadian?  I sure hope not.  That's not the country I signed up to defend.



Could that be read as meaning that I thought CF members should be allowed to protest?  Hmmm....possibly.   let's check a couple of earlier posts in this thread.

48Highlander said:


> So...they have the right to protest...but we don't?
> 
> I dunno about you, but I'm not interested in fighting for their freedom of speech if it means I have to loose all right to mine.



To which I responded...


> It's not that we as CF mbrs don't have freedom of speech, but simply that we are obliged to conduct ourselves with a certain sense of restraint and impartiality.



Was I saying that CF members should be allowed to protest?  Hmmm....NO.   I guess anything can be read however the reader wants.   Obviously CF members don't have the right to protest, nor should we IMO.  _*BUT*_ - if civilian Canadians don't have the right either, regardless of whether we're at war or not, then that would definitely not be the kind of country I signed up to defend, I don't know about you.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2005)

No arguements to your full picture.   (I do agree)


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## Pieman (14 Oct 2005)

I caught the lecture General Hillier gave to Carleton University, and it is something worth watching. He gave a great lecture and outlined the role of the Canadian military's role in the world.

You can find times for the show on the website below:


> http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index.asp?dsp=template&act=view3&template_id=107&lang=e
> On September 22, 2005, General R.J. Hillier, Canadian Forces Chief of Defence Staff, delivered the annual Dick, Ruth and Judy Bell Lecture at Carleton University in Ottawa.



The most entertaining part of the lecture was the question period. One guy got up as asked the General: 
"You are not doing anything to protect Canada from an aggressive United States. Will you resign?"   ??? (A couple of them asked a question to that effect)

To which the General responded: "No."

Upon which the audience booed the guy giving the question and gave the General a standing ovation. Pretty entertaining.

There were a couple of good questions though.


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## Cyr (15 Oct 2005)

Yeah I saw that speach also, and I agree wit hyou that the General gave a great speach. However the part that I found myself getting off the couch and wanting to give those idiots during the question period a good old shot in the head. I just thought that there were much more MATURE students attending university now. Oh well guess I was wrong.I did however how the general did not play into some of the stupid questions and how the teacher clamped down on those stupid questions. Or should I say the cries for attention.

Oh well..


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## career_radio-checker (15 Oct 2005)

I've been looking for the full story of how this evening went down (I know its been a month). 
It was the best and least biased report I could find. I will also post it at the other thread regarding Hiller's speach.

http://www.charlatan.ca/articles/2005/09/29/stories/50812.html

"Hillier protesters draw dissent

Audience heckles activists during General's speech on campus

by Philippe Morin

  The first "boos" of the lecture came when Gen. Rick Hillier pulled out a Toronto Maple Leafs notebook.

It was a joke meant to tease an Ottawa crowd of around 350 people who gathered at Carleton to watch Canada's chief of the defence staff speak Sept. 22.

The loudest boos came from the Student Coalition Against War group, which protested the speech beforehand and gave out flyers depicting Canada's top soldier as a nuclear-powered monster. 

The Raging Grannies held a sing-along outside the theatre, singing anti-war songs to the tune of "The Ants Go Marching."

At the speech, young people wearing anti-war buttons sat next to ex-military officers.

Hillier's speech, "Canada's military in a dangerous new world," addressed the issue of Canadian participation in Afghanistan.

He said Canada's upcoming contingent would be on a mission of peace, looking to build "psychological security" and protect Afghan efforts to rebuild one of the most destitute regions of the world.

"There are four million people in Kabul," Hillier said. "My estimate is that 25 to 50 of those would gladly work to kill Canadian soldiers on any given day. 

"But four million people in Kabul are absolutely delighted and ecstatic that our soldiers are there."

Citing the Sept. 18 Afghan elections, Hillier called Canada's presence a "beacon of hope in Afghanistan."

He also recommended sweeping changes to the military, so "Canadian values" can be backed by "Canadian toughness," if necessary.

At the question period that followed the speech, several students lined up at the provided microphones and accused Hillier of promoting imperialism, Americanism and capitalist empire-building.

Trevor Haché of the Student Coalition Against War was first to take the microphone.

"I'd first like to commend Mr. Hillier on his public service, but there is an elephant in the room no one is talking about," Haché said.

He then held up a copy of Embassy magazine, which featured a quote from outspoken British MP George Galloway.

In the magazine, Galloway is quoted as saying Canada is making "strategic mistakes" in Afghanistan and jeopardizing its "fine reputation" as a peacekeeper in the Muslim world by being allied with the United States.

Wearing a green military-style jacket, Haché embarked on a speech of his own. 

He raised objections about the United States' "affection" for nuclear arms and what he called its recent move toward approving potential pre-emptive nuclear strikes against rogue nations.

Crowd noise increased as Haché pulled out another article citing Robert McNamara, former American secretary of defence, who now says the American nuclear policy is immoral and illegal.

"What is your question, please?" asked Katherine Graham, moderator of the question period, as Haché reached for a third article.

"My question is simple," Haché said. 

"What are the Canadian forces doing to protect the rest of the world from the United States, which is increasingly belligerent, ignoring international law, conducting illegal wars . . ."

At that moment, the crowd roared and Haché was drowned out. Audience members booed, yelled "get off the mic" and told Haché to sit down. 

Some clapped in approval while others whistled and banged notebooks.

Another student, who spoke after Haché, challenged Hillier to resign.

Immediately, boos and heckles shot from the audience.

Hillier's one-word reply, "No," received a standing ovation.

As questions kept coming, Hillier seemed to keep his composure. 

He repeated his view that Canada was "not building an empire" in Afghanistan as three more students accused him of participating in capitalist empire-building.

"We work with many nations, including, sometimes, the United States," Hillier said.

With six people left standing in line for questions, Graham stopped the show.

Hillier addressed a few more comments to the audience and left for an informal reception in the Loeb Building.

Gary Dalby, a former air force pilot officer from Nepean, said he was angered by the protesters. He said the audience heckling was clearly in favour of Hillier.

"The crowd showed where their emphasis was," he said.

Carleton president David Atkinson was at the speech and called the night a success.

"The general's views are very impassioned," Atkinson said. "He obviously feels very committed. He's very single-minded and driven. And whenever you have someone [like him] you'll always have people who are equally impassioned and equally committed, but see the world in a different way."

Atkinson said the raucous atmosphere in the lecture hall was "predictable" considering the controversial nature of the speech. 

Though things "got pretty animated," he said, the night was an example of free speech and democracy.

"I think it's useful," he said. "I think it's what universities are for. We exist for every point of view to be heard and that's what happened tonight. If we didn't exist to allow that to happen, society would be worse off."


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## Slim (15 Oct 2005)

at about 2 this morning I pulled down several posts by a kid out west someplace who depicted the CF as a bunch of murderers and...well I'm sure you get the idea.

My point is twofold.

First: He obviously believed what he was saying as there was too much effort oput into his posts for me to think otherwise.

Second: There wasn't one thing even remotely right in his tirades against the CF (or anything else. The JTF2 also featured prominently in this kid's abusive post) yet he had a whole conspirecy written down and firmly believed that we are in the midst of some criminal operatins in a'stan and other plaes.

 I personally would like to know wherre this kid is getting his info from?! And who are the real ones behind the disinformation (which is working as well as any int psyop could be expected to) that is floating around out there.

Do we dare to belive that the Taliban and A.Q. supporters are behind all this?


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## Pieman (16 Oct 2005)

> I personally would like to know wherre this kid is getting his info from?! And who are the real ones behind the disinformation (which is working as well as any int psyop could be expected to) that is floating around out there.
> 
> Do we dare to belive that the Taliban and A.Q. supporters are behind all this?


I noticed those posts before you took them down. The language he was using was pretty typical of an * extream *   leftist activist. Some of them view the war in Iraq and Afghanistan to be illegal and morally corrupt, and often use language referring to the military and politicians as murderers and criminals. The language they use is meant to hammer in a emotional reaction to what they are protesting, the real issues and facts probably don't matter to a person like that. So either the guy hasn't a clue about what is really going on, or simply will not consider any other view than his own. You can't reason with people so irrational and emotionally charged. 

Hitting the delete button was the best thing you could do, as it was not like he was trying to discuss the issue with anyone here. That's my take on the kid.   Anyway, I would not read too much into his post.


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## Infanteer (16 Oct 2005)

Well, having heard the truth about how Michael Moore got his story on those Marine recruiters for Fugginstupid 911, I wouldn't be surprised about what Pieman said; Michael Moore runs a Psyops organization that rivals that of the US Military....


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## Slim (16 Oct 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well, having heard the truth about how Michael Moore got his story on those Marine recruiters for Fugginstupid 911, I wouldn't be surprised about what Pieman said; Michael Moore runs a Psyops organization that rivals that of the US Military....



Agreed with both you and Piedude...

My thoughts (and questin) is where is this all coming from...is it so far fetched that there couldn't be members of the other sdide behind all this retoric?


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## Pieman (16 Oct 2005)

> My thoughts (and questin) is where is this all coming from...is it so far fetched that there couldn't be members of the other sdide behind all this retoric?


AQ is not without a voice through their use of the internet, so people are taking the effort to track down and read this stuff. If they believe it, they may spread the misinformation. The question is how much of the misinformation can be attributed to leftist rantings seeded by Micheal Moore types,   as opposed to 'information' seeded by the AQ? 

As for the post in question that was deleted, my personal take is that it was more simply a Moore/Chomsky drunken blurb by a extream leftist.

Been reading up on how AQ is utilizing the web to spread their word through their 'Global Islamic Media Front' organization. Don't know if it was posted before, but I found this to be an eye opening website: 

http://www.clandestineradio.com
(check out the videos too)

Here in North America, I suspect the AQ voice goes almost unnoticed. In other countries though...the prospect of how many people may be listening to their propaganda, and believing it, is a scary thought.


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## ArmyRick (16 Oct 2005)

Here is what strikes me as a typical conversation at between a CF or logical minded person and the modern anti-anything military

Logical Person "We are working to help re-build a nation that has been hampered for several years, the CF will provide the safe and secure enviroment that keeps thugs, terrorist and others at bay..."

Protestor "Murderor ! Get out of Iraq, leave Afghanistan!"

Logical Person "We are not in Iraq and why should we leave A-stan?"

Protestor "Because we are puppets of the imperial amercan war machine, thats why!"

Logical Person "Please explain? Elaborate."

Protestor "Because you are! You just want to build an american empire!"

Logical Person "What about protecting CIDA assets that aid in reconstruction? What about ROEs designed to protect the innocent from being gun downed? What about helping the afghani rebuild their own army so that some day, they can do this all on their own?"

Protestor "War Monger! War Monger..."

At this point the typical conversation degrades to the childish name calling and BS accusations of the modern day Hippy.

To the war protestor or more realistically anti-american protestor, GET A LIFE and learn a thing or two about the real world.


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## Slim (16 Oct 2005)

Armyrick

I find your above post both accurate and timely.

Please stay.

Slim


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## Haggis (18 Oct 2005)

Although I beleive the majority of "grown up| Canadians support the CF more now than, say, pre- 9/11 my personal experience is that those who openly "dis" us are simply seeking attention.


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## nd.07 (18 Oct 2005)

For alot of the young, anti-military, disestablishement new age hippies (those at my school...) its a fad. They are completely oblivious to any facts, screeming OIL ITS FOR OIL and AMERICAN PUPPET as well as citing that 9/11 was orchestrated by the governement..... : of course... Being pro-Bush, conservative and supportive of the military, I'm regularly insulted, and then when I decide to engage them in inteligent debate, they cant stand up to the facts.


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## RangerRay (18 Oct 2005)

They are Lenin's, Mao's and Bin Laden's Fifth Column of Useful Idiots to bring down the West.


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## Gdsm Chris (19 Oct 2005)

This is awesome... I guess I've been pretty busy and away from Army.ca for awhile, because I had no idea that a thread I started had been merged along with others into somewhat of a larger-scale topic.
Like someone said a few posts back, it's been almost a month since Hillier's speech here at Carleton, and it's virtually been forgotten; the protestors have gone back to whatever little corner they came from, probably to work on their next challenge of preventing tuition increases, spending money that could be invested into potential new scholarships into funding trips to futile rallies... oh well.
I think the message still remains, however, of how we (as past, present, and future members of the CF), are not getting the respect we should be getting. It's even more obvious that this is a hot topic, as evidenced by the merging of these threads into one. I'd like to thank whoever was responsible for this, for consolidating these conversations, and also for keeping the poll above, which I started, intact.
So who else is still keeping an eye on this thread, is from Carleton, and would like to input their 'One Month Later' two cents?


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