# Canada's First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, etc. (merged)



## UberCree (7 Nov 2005)

Excellent article on the whole Kesheshewan story.  It hits rez life square on the nose!

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=d45d2afe-86e6-48de-8a72-cdc8bb6a3b12


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## GO!!! (7 Nov 2005)

One thing about the whole Kashechewan thing still makes me wonder.

Why, during the whole period during which the community was under a boil water advisory, did the Band not act to fix the water treatment plant? I understand it is INA responsibility, but when people are getting sick and dying, where are the local leaders?

The guy who eventually fixed the plant stated that it could be done for 3000$ - where was the Chief? Why did he not use his discretion (and budget) to remedy the situation a long time ago?


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## kincanucks (7 Nov 2005)

A very good question perhaps it wasn't done to bring attention to other problems such as not getting enough gas for the trucks.  I saw a photo in the National Post a couple of weeks that showed a woman and her son in their laundry room and the floor was covered in garbage with an empty garbage pail against the wall.  Perhaps they need the government to pick it up too.


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## UberCree (8 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> One thing about the whole Kashechewan thing still makes me wonder.
> 
> Why, during the whole period during which the community was under a boil water advisory, did the Band not act to fix the water treatment plant? I understand it is INA responsibility, but when people are getting sick and dying, where are the local leaders?
> 
> The guy who eventually fixed the plant stated that it could be done for 3000$ - where was the Chief? Why did he not use his discretion (and budget) to remedy the situation a long time ago?


It was $30 to fix the part not 3000.00


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## GO!!! (8 Nov 2005)

UberCree said:
			
		

> It was $30 to fix the part not 3000.00



That was with labour transport etc included.

It just seems to me ( I grew up a white kid on a res) that everyone who lives on reservations is so willing to point fingers and demand solutions, but they never take a proactive approach to solving their own problems.

From this article - "graffiti scrawled walls" who put it there? People from outside the community?

"broken windows... garbage strewn about" I suppose that the members of the "tightly knit" community would'nt do these types of things to their own homes - so who was it? 

Why is it always the government's responsibility to solve all of the problems of aboriginals?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here - I really want to know!?


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## a_majoor (8 Nov 2005)

GO!!!!!! makes a valid obsergvation, and I will add one of my own:

Way back when I was with One Brigade, we would often go for road moves into the more obscure corners of Alberta. Often, we would end up driving down some road with the horrifying third world looking "Res" on one side, and beautiful ranches or farms on the other. Weirdly enough, when we got to a town or villiage and asked about this, we would be told the farms and ranches were owned by natives who had moved off the reservation, and no longer had anything to do with it.

The corrosive living conditions on the Res are due in a very large part to the idea that "someone else" is responsible to do things, provide things or generally make things better. BZ to the people who took it upon themselves to get off the "Res" and take responsibility for their own lives. Until we get the parts to pull the plug on the welfare ghettos we created on the reservations (which will probably require a "cold turkey" withdrawl of all welfare and special privilages) stories like Kashechewan will continue to happen.


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## UberCree (9 Nov 2005)

It's too easy to say the problems could be solved by any one approach.  As the article above implies, there are many factors involved.  You gotta remember as well that there are many many First Nations communities that do not make the news, because things are going well.  My community is one of them.  We have a thriving economy, growing economic development, people buy their own houses through an agreement with BMO (Otherwise you cannot finance your own house on reserve, if you do the terms are severely punishing), and we have a large number of vets in the community.  We take responsibility for where we are.
Now other communities, I'll name Garden Hill Manitoba as one (effectionately known as Garbage Hill) the complete opposite is true.  Dependance is encouraged.  The newly elected chief, every two years, picks a house he likes and takes it over.  Incest is rampant.  No one owns anything, the band owns everything.  No one takes responsibility for anything, even miniscule things like changing lightbulbs and doorhandles.  
The newly elected Grand Chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs (Ron Evans) says pretty much the same thing a_majoor says.  He is telling the feds to stop putting more money into social assistance and more into economic dev.  Ron Evans is a liberal party member, as is Phil Fontaine.  These guys regularly donate money from band coffers to the liberal party so you would think that they may have some influence... we'll see at the first ministers conference comming up I suppose.  My guess is it is no coincidence that the Aboriginal leaders are invited to this one, but that their long term payments to the liberal party are finally paying off.


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2005)

UberCree said:
			
		

> These guys regularly donate money from band coffers to the liberal party so you would think that they may have some influence... we'll see at the first ministers conference comming up I suppose.   My guess is it is no coincidence that the Aboriginal leaders are invited to this one, but that their long term payments to the liberal party are finally paying off.



Anyone else see a problem with those statements or is it just me ?  Didnt we just go trough a "small situation" about money going to the liberal party ?


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## kincanucks (9 Nov 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Anyone else see a problem with those statements or is it just me ?   Didnt we just go trough a "small situation" about money going to the liberal party ?



Unless the monies are from band generated revenues oil and gas for example) and not from federally allocated funds there shouldn't be an issue but you never know.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Nov 2005)

This is a topic I wanted to start long ago but thought it would just be a flame war, well done so far for a good discussion.
I must admit I was rather sickened by a picture I saw where blame was being tossed around at everyone else while just above in the photo a stream, or culvert, was shown FILLED with household garbage and stuff.......IMO, its hard to cry foul if you won't swing a bat.


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## armyvern (16 Nov 2005)

Very very interesting Article in the Globe and Mail yesterday:

By MARGARET WENTE 

Tuesday, November 15, 2005 Page A27

_"What caused the water crisis at Kashechewan? In the official version of the story, the one the politicians and the band endorse, the crisis was caused by years of underfunding and neglect of water treatment plants on remote reserves. Only billions of dollars in new government spending can bring the water systems up to scratch and prevent the native population from being poisoned.

There's another version of the story. In this version, the water crisis at Kashechewan was caused by a broken $30 part.

The man who fixed it was Chris LeBlanc. He works for Northern Waterworks, a small firm in Red Lake, three hours away by air. He flew to Kashechewan on Oct. 15 -- one day after federal health officials discovered E. coli in the water. It didn't take him long to find the problem. The chlorine dosing pump was stuck. He couldn't fix the broken part, so he got the spare pump working and hooked it up to the chlorinator. Meantime, he dumped a lot of chlorine bleach into the reservoir to kill the germs.

It took him six hours to fix the problem. Within a few days, the water was clean again.

 Everything that happened after that -- the barrage of hysterical publicity from the band leaders' media team, the dramatic evacuation, the airlift of a 20,000-pound water purifier by Hercules transport planes, and the army detachment that went with it -- was mere political theatre. By the time the Rangers got their water unit up and running, the local water had been safe for two weeks.

Before Mr. LeBlanc was summoned by the feds, the water plant had been run by two local men. "Nobody really trained us," one of them complained. But that wasn't the real problem. The real problem was their failure to follow a few simple procedures that would have prevented the water from being contaminated in the first place.

Remember the sewage lagoon? The one that overflowed into the water supply and turned it brown? As the Toronto Star found in a damning report, the problem wasn't caused by faulty engineering. The problem was caused by beaver dams, which blocked the sewage discharge outlet and forced the sewage back up into the creek. Three years ago, an engineering firm told the band to destroy the beaver dams. It did. But the beavers built new dams, and no one bothered to get rid of them again.

There was also an alarm system that was supposed to go off when the water was bad. But it didn't work properly. It went off all the time, and annoyed people. So five years ago, said one of the water operators, "we just shut it off." After the chlorination pump broke down, the operators started guessing how much chlorine to add manually. When people complained they'd added too much, they cut back. "The community doesn't like the smell of chlorine in the water," said Chris LeBlanc.

It's easy to say that local water operators need better equipment and more training. Indeed they do. But not all the training in the world will help if they can't follow instructions, and don't know how to problem-solve, and can't get the beaver dams cleared away, and aren't held accountable for their job performance.

Not everyone in Kashechewan is mad at the water operators, who are among the tiny handful of those on the reserve with salaried jobs. Also, a lot of people are related to them. "They are incredible people," said a member of the band executive. When things go wrong at the reserve, well, it's easier to blame Ottawa.

Nobody can guess the final cost of the broken $30 part. The government spent $500,000 to fly people out; it's costing another $10,000 or so a day to put them up. Paul Martin has pledged to move the whole community upstream, at a possible cost of $100-million. He has also promised $3-billion or $4-billion more to bring all 600 first nations water systems up to scratch, on top of the $2-billion we've already spent in the past decade.

Meantime, back in Kashechewan, the Rangers have produced 300,000 litres of drinking water no one needs. They have entered into protracted negotiations with the band about where to store the stuff."_

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20051115/COWENT15/TPComment/TopStories


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## Infanteer (16 Nov 2005)

What did the people of Kashechewan do before European government came?  I'm seriously asking, since Native self-government is considered the "Third Order" or something - how is it that they are totally dependent on somebody else to provide them with drinking water?  ???


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## UberCree (16 Nov 2005)

In that region they probably dispursed in the winter months out to family areas (later traplines) then gathered in settlements in the summer near a fishing / food source.  
Back in the day you could drink the water in most of the rivers in Canada remember.  I don't think I would now.  The whole decline culturally and economically IMO began with settlements that could not support populations.  This was encouraged because the gov't of the day wanted Native people to assimilate and it was thought we would assimilate faster in communities (access to churches and schools etc.).  The catch was people had to give up their traditional means of land based subsistance to do this and ended up losing the skills in many cases.  Welfare was encouraged because it made people stay in one area.  Up north the gov't / RCMP went so far as to kill off dog teams so that people couldn't move around on the land.
These are background factors... not excuses for what is happeneing in this community and others today.


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## pbi (16 Nov 2005)

The Rangers are running a ROWPU? Really? Sure it isn't the water supply troop from 2 CER?

I'm afraid that Wente's article only scratches the surface of the sad tale of mismanagement in too many band administrations. I believe that many aboriginal people would like to see their governance system overhauled, and their officials made more accountable, but I suspect that there are too many vested interests, both Govt and aboriginal, who do not want that to happen. Until our First Nations can get governance in place that approximates the bare minimum standards of  competence and capability that we would expect from the average Canadian municipality, there will be more Kashechawans, all on the backs of native people.

Cheers


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## TCBF (16 Nov 2005)

There are good bands and bad bands.  In a bad band, even if the guys did their jobs at the water plant, once a new chief gets elected, he could fire them, hire his relatives, use the trauining and upgrading money to build his relatives new houses, sit back, and blame Ottawa.  And the feds and the media don't dare rock the boat by figuring out the truth - that you can't trust semi-litterate drunken hillbillies in Walkerton to run a water plant, so you might want to take some HR precautions elsewhere as well.

Tom


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## missing1 (19 Nov 2005)

"City officials in both Peterborough and Sudbury say the federal government's offer was clear: provide a home for some of the displaced Kashechewan residents and we'll pay all the bills.
So why did Ottawa later send around an agreement that would have municipalities sharing some costs?
And why are the cities involved still negotiating a deal for 100 per cent funding nearly a month after that commitment was made?
The answer, unfortunately, is that governments do this all the time. They say yes, they support the program and the money will flow. But the final agreement always seems to take more time, become more complicated and â â€œ in many cases â â€œ deliver less than was promised. "
----
The Feds still won't pay up.


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## armyvern (19 Nov 2005)

teufel said:
			
		

> The answer, unfortunately, is that governments do this all the time. They say yes, they support the program and the money will flow. But the final agreement always seems to take more time, become more complicated and â â€œ in many cases â â€œ deliver less than was promised. "
> ----
> The Feds still won't pay up.


Which is also the reason that the Feds must themselves, be overhauled.


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## UberCree (19 Nov 2005)

News is now saying that the feds plan a 4 billion package to address Native poverty issues.  Let's see if they have listened to the Native leaders and direct this at economic development and NOT social assistance.  We can only hope.


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## Slim (19 Nov 2005)

armyvern said:
			
		

> Which is also the reason that the Feds must themselves, be overhauled.



I'd personally prefer KEEL-HAULED as oppose to overhauled...But that's just me.


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## Edward Campbell (24 Nov 2005)

Here is an interesting piece by John  Ibbitson in today's _Globe and Mail_.  It is reproduced below under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20051124.IBBITSON24/TPStory


> Third World rules will gauge success of native summit
> 
> By JOHN IBBITSON
> 
> ...



I would argue that the key problem is *leadership* or, more precisely, lack of leadership.

I suggest that the *blame* for the lack of leadership problem lies about 2/3 with aboriginals themselves and 1/3 with the federal government - which consists of politicians devoid of ideas, ever since Trudeau's failed attempt at assimilation (again), and an inept and often corrupt bureaucracy - which is too often _excused_ for both failings because it has an _aboriginal preference_ affirmative action programme.  (Giving preference to aboriginals is not a problem - not holding them to the same high standard which ought to be required of all public servants is.  Such a policy _infantilizes_ aboriginals and perpetuates the myth that, somehow or other, aboriginals are not quite as good as us white folks.  The policy is, in fact, _racist_ because it assumes that aboriginals cannot or will not adhere to the high standards we ought to expect but we must not blame them for that.)

In fairness to aboriginals we - Canadian society at large, the values of which are, and have been for 135 years, reflected in the laws and policies our elected 'leaders' enact - have *trained them to fail*.  Our policies have actually rewarded venality, corruption, paternalism and nepotism.  Why are we surprised that some - and _some is too many_ in this case - aboriginal 'leaders' reflect back what we have indicated is _*right*_?  Our federal government has, consistently, rewarded failure and ignored or even punished success - is it so surprising that many aboriginal communities have endured generations of inept, venal 'leadership'?

I do not pretend to have any, much less some or all, of the answers to the aboriginal communities' problems - they are many and varied and not, I suspect, amenable to simple, one-size-fits-all solutions.  I am certain that nothing much is possible until the leadership void is filled: in Ottawa and in some (many?) of the communities.


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## TCBF (24 Nov 2005)

Mr. Campbell,

I think your post makes a lot more sense than the pap that passes for high-priced editorial comment in Canada today.

Tom


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## geo (24 Nov 2005)

Kash....
Uhhh... shudder, remember the place from my days with the HBC northern stores.
The place was always a little bit crazy. Locals taking pot shots at the Staff house in broad daylight... chopping up the store's wooden sidewalks, all sorts of other sillyness. 

glad I left that area a long, long time ago & no one ever made me go back.


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## Reccesoldier (15 Jun 2007)

Shared with all the normal disclaimers.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=3f4a7d6f-6646-4a47-a8ed-4053e5269058



> This week, a Cree living on the Pooundmaker Reserve in Saskatchewan, Floyd Favel, wrote an article published in a Toronto-based newspaper calling for "a Buckskin Revolution."
> 
> "Within first nations communities, we need a re-evaluation of where we are going as a people and how we can further contribute to this great country."
> 
> Favel laments that the aboriginal leadership lives so indulgently, "driving their big trucks and collecting huge salaries." He complains of *"unaccountable leadership that administers its people without any rules and leaves no avenues with which to protest unjust leadership."*



Canada as a nation and Canadians as a people fret about such injustices in the world (the highlighted portion) .  We collectively believe in democratic principals and assisting emerging democracies but somehow we find it impossible to enforce a modicum of democracy right in our very own backyards?

In contrast to the articles author I say that there is one more thing that the Canadian Government must do...  

This evolving trainwreck that is Canada's aboriginal experiment should be stopped forthwith and modern liberal democratic ideals must not only be established on reserves but must be enforced and respected uniformly.  

No more useless quasi-tribal regressive historical governance but open, free and fair elections with transparent decision making processes, accountable officials, modern financial accounting practices and legitimacy at all levels of aboriginal government. 

How ironic that we currently have people in Afghanistan teaching the principals of democracy but we don't even adhere to those same principals on native reserves here in Canada.


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## Yrys (15 Jun 2007)

Good point, but I'm not sure that the canadian government has the legal right to ask
for certains rules and way of doing  thinks in reserves. But they could ask for the leaders to clarified on paper
theirs rules, budget, how they spend money etc, and let the first nations people vote accordingly .


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## GAP (15 Jun 2007)

Yeah, they do have the right under the Indian Act....in addition they supply 9-10 Billion $ per year in funding....if they had the gonads to enforce the rules, they could.


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## Yrys (15 Jun 2007)

I think I may have a bit of reading to do...


http://www.bloorstreet.com/200block/sindact.htm

Henderson's Annotated Indian Act
The Indian Act is the main piece of federal legislation governing Status Indians and the Reserve system in Canada.
 Annotated with comments by legal scholar Henderson.


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## Benny (27 Jun 2007)

On a related issue, our govt has just requested 30 patrols from NorForce (northern surveillance units) to help keep alcohol out of aboriginal communities, to make sure kids go to school and to stop child abuse. An interesting use of the military...


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## The Bread Guy (27 Jun 2007)

Yrys said:
			
		

> I think I may have a bit of reading to do...
> 
> 
> http://www.bloorstreet.com/200block/sindact.htm
> ...



Not to mention things like The First Nations Reporting Guide (FNRG) National Template (en francais ici).

Also, when you consider the _Indian Act_ (DOJ version here), take a look at the bottom of the page for all the regulations governing all sorts of things, like _Indian Act_ elections, Band Council Procedures, and estates, to name just a few.


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## Yrys (27 Jun 2007)

Be prepare for longer transportation time the 29th June...

Quebec aboriginal chiefs to skip day of action protests

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/06/27/ot-day-of-action-070627.html



> The Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador has persuaded Quebec's aboriginal leaders not to organize protests for a day of action designated by its national sister organization.
> 
> 'The Oka crisis 17 years ago taught us a lot about how something simple can turn into a major confrontation.'— Chief Stephen McGregor, Kitigan Zibi
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2007)

Don't know about "blockades" in Quebec, but it doesn't look like protests there will be zero, either....

http://www.nationtalk.ca/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2072

*The First Nations of Quebec Will Take Part in the "National Day of Action"*
Posted 2007/6/28 11:34:02 

QUEBEC, June 28 - Contrary to the information broadcasted yesterday on RDI and on CBC's Website, the Chiefs of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador wish to specify that they will participate fully in the "National Day of Action" on June 29th. As stated in the June 21st Press Release, the Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador (AFNQL) wish to remind the population that it supports wholeheartedly this day which is intended to raise public awareness in Quebec and across Canada, on the key issues which the First Nations are confronted with.

The Assembly of First Nations of Quebec and Labrador is the regional organization representing the Chiefs of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador.

For further information: Alain Garon, Communication and Information Officer, AFNQL, (418) 842-5020, Cell.: (418) 956-5720


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## midget-boyd91 (28 Jun 2007)

Benny said:
			
		

> On a related issue, our govt has just requested 30 patrols from NorForce (northern surveillance units) to help keep alcohol out of aboriginal communities, to make sure kids go to school and to stop child abuse. An interesting use of the military...



And it has had an interesting kick back already: I have heard within the last day or two that an aborigine tribe may/is boycotting travellers from climbing Uluru.


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## DualCore (28 Jun 2007)

We need a government with the spine of a pre-political-Trudeau or a Preston Manning, or ... to strongly correct an uncompleted aspect of the Enlightenment:

*Indians are Human Beings and Canadian Citizens*

Jim Prentice made a tiny step in that direction that human rights and modern Canadian divorce rights would also apply to Indians.  
But we need the full-court-press on this: no more barbarian privileges, no more crappy but free housing, no more free but stinky water, no more discount liquor, no more monopoly on gambling, smuggling, etc.

Phil Fontaine will certainly cry "Genocide" on a proposal of "Indians are People", but 50 years from now, Indians will celebrate a National Holiday "The Day We Became Human Beings"

Canada is seething with opportunity, particularly if you can pass the first couple of hurdles on the Affirmative-Action principle, but the notion that you can get free- heart-transplant, insulin, Viagra, hi-def-wide-screen, 3000 sq-ft ranch-style, annual Jamaican Cruise, ... from a traditional economic activity of seal hunting ...  Well No!  Seal-hunting might have fed the kids in 1600, but if you want a rum-cocktail in Bermuda, then learn how to read, multiply, and use a computer just like the rest of us.  Otherwise, get used to a spot in the zoo beside the Polar Bears.


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## larry Strong (28 Jun 2007)

The houses *may* be free, however having built some and stuccoed others, they are not crappy at the start.


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## Harris (29 Jun 2007)

Agreed.  Friends of mine lived in homes I would gladly have moved into.


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## Yrys (29 Jun 2007)

Tribal police break up Indian reservation's beer blockade

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/28/beer.blockade.ap/index.html


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## Rowshambow (29 Jun 2007)

If they are Canadian citizens, then why are they not held to the same laws as the rest of us, and put in jail when they put up a blockade, I know if I or any other non native did that, we would be hit with a batton and spend a night or two in the can! What if an Asian (say Chinese) were to put up a blockade (on a railroad that some of there kin might have died working on) just to get a more money or recognition for their part in building this nation? I am sorry for what has happened to the natives in the past, but to say you want to do this blockade to bring your plight to the eyes of Canadians, C'mon you are tresspassing on Federal land and should be dealt with accordingly! You are not opening our eyes, you are just Pi$$ing us off!! I had a friend that was a cadet in Ipperwash (what he told me, and maybe some of you can confirm this) but he was saying that while at camp one summer, a group of Natives was driving around shooting guns, "protesting" saying it was there land etc.. Now what if one of them had shot a kid? I know in the end an OPP member shot a native, but you never do hear about when they were shooting!
Rant over!, beging beasting....


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## The_Falcon (29 Jun 2007)

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/06/17/4268111-cp.html



> DESERONTO, Ont. (CP) - *Armed * and angry Mohawk protesters prematurely opened a national Aboriginal day of action, leaving the country's busiest travel corridor eerily barren early today on the first day of one of the season's business travel weekends.
> 
> The protesters delivered on threats to seriously snarl transportation in eastern Ontario, effectively having two major highways as well as the CN Rail main line closed. Just before midnight, Ontario Provincial Police said they had closed a stretch of the busy Highway 401 between Shannonville and Marysville in advance of a planned native blockade.
> 
> ...



Highlights are mine, to show plain and simple these are the actions of a TERRORIST, and this IS DOMESTIC TERRORSIM.  This sob Brant is agitating for a violent confrontation, and is taking steps to ensure it happens.  Why is this scumbag still free? We have thrown people in the clink on terrorsim charges, and they haven't done half the crap this asshole has done (not to say they are innocent or guilty, but to show, the huge double standard out there).  This is sickening and pathetic, that our governments allow this crap to continue on.  So far Fantino's all bark and no bite.  And so much for equal rule of law.


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## LakeSup (29 Jun 2007)

10 Biliion a year SHOULD pay for all the clean water and sanitation required.  Problem is waste and corruption in the FN biz.  Has Sheila Fraser ever been turned loose on this ministry?  FN need some honest leaders with courage and vision, not the same bunch of entitled crooks and bagmen.


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## observor 69 (29 Jun 2007)

http://ago.mobile.globeandmail.com/generated/archive/RTGAM/html/20070628/wxcowent28.html

Thursday, June 28

Trapped in the aboriginal narrative
Margaret Wente
From Thursday's Globe and Mail

All across the land, native leaders are beating the drums for tomorrow's National Day of Action. The point of the protests, they claim, is to "educate" the rest of us about the terrible conditions endured by aboriginals. "Poverty among Canada's first nations peoples rivals Third World conditions," explains Phil Fontaine, national chief of the Assembly of First Nations. "It's this country's dirty little secret."

If so, it's the worst-kept secret in the world. You'd have to be brain dead not to be aware of the poverty of the reserves, the awful housing, the bad water, the sickness, the suicides, the hopelessness. People have grown weary of this story because it never changes. Kashechewan and Davis Inlet and Pikangikum all blur together. Those poor children, they say. And then they change the channel.

Everyone is trapped in the narrative we've constructed to explain it. The Europeans arrived, wiped out most of the natives, stole their land and tried to stamp out their culture. All the dysfunction of aboriginal communities stems from the original sins of the conquerors. Only the restoration of their land and culture (plus more money) will restore their dignity and fortunes.

We now have a vast Indian industry of chiefs, government bureaucrats, lawyers, consultants and academics that is heavily invested in this narrative. Many of these people are well-meaning. They are also the chief obstacles to change, because their remedies make the problems worse.

"Dependency spending programs don't work," says Clarence Louie, chief of the Osoyoos band in B.C. "The only real solution is the economy, stupid." Chief Louie is a rare voice of dissent. Instead of talking about tradition and spirituality, he talks about economic development. The Osoyoos band used to be like the others - dependent on government handouts, crippled by social problems and nepotism. Today, it owns nine businesses, including the award-winning winery Nk'Mip Cellars.

Calvin Helin, from the Tsimshian Nation in B.C., is another unpopular guy. He wrote Dances with Dependency, a call for native self-reliance. Aboriginal communities don't need ancient wisdom and more handouts, he says. They need entrepreneurs. "We don't live in a bubble, and we have to become economically integrated into the system to look after ourselves."

Unfortunately, these voices of reason are all but drowned out by those who insist that participating in the free-market economy is a sellout to the white man's ways. Nowhere is this "sellout" message stronger than among the academic elites who peddle fuzzy visions of a communal, egalitarian, back-to-the-land utopia where first nations peoples will be healed and once again live in harmony with the land and each other.

Whether you're in Canada, Australia or New Zealand, the dominant narrative is always the same - and so is the dysfunction and degradation of aboriginal communities. Last month, a Maori named Alan Duff came to Canada to blow up that narrative. He wrote the book that formed the basis for Once Were Warriors, the heartbreaking movie about the dark side of modern Maori life.

"Political correctness is your enemy! White academic liberals are your enemy!" he told a Winnipeg audience. "They tell us indigenous people that we ought to go back and live as our ancestors lived. They want you to return to your past. But they're not going to do that. They're teaching their children your ceremonies. They're teaching them the modern tools of technology, and how to get mortgages."

The so-called wisdom of the elders is another problem. "Our elders often suggest we go back to how things were. They have no notion or concept of what the modern world is about, nor of what young peoples' aspirations are."

Mr. Duff knows that native kids are doomed unless they acquire the two essential keys to modern life: literacy and an education. That's why he founded the program Books in Homes, which has placed millions of books in the hands of Maori children. He also refuses to soft-pedal, excuse or explain away the familiar pathologies that afflict many of his people - the drunkenness, the wife-beating, the child abuse. To the men, he says: Stop strutting! Stop giving us endless speeches about yourselves! Start doing something for your families and your children!

It's called self-empowerment. And nobody can give it to you.

mwente@globeandmail.com


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## Exarecr (29 Jun 2007)

Well I was going to bitch and complain with the rest of you but all the good stuff has been said already. Take a gander at the "warriors". The only thing bigger than their numbers is the girth of their considerable paunch's. This rag tag group of wannabe,s are an insult to law abiding citizens and again we let these people break the law at their pleasure. Enough. I'm so pissed my hands are shaking.


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## formerarmybrat23 (29 Jun 2007)

Armed native protesters block Ontario highway, railway line
Warrant issued for leader     


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=80f830b1-f459-4b54-a9d5-50d281784ec5
Published: Friday, June 29, 2007 Article tools
DESERONTO, Ont. -- The Ontario Provincial Police took action early this morning against Mohawk protesters with blockades at major provincial highways and a railway line by issuing an arrest warrant for the protest's leader.

A warrant was issued for Shawn Brant, 43, of the Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory, for mischief and breach of recognizance relating to blockades at Highways 401 and 2. Three Via Rail passenger trains were also turned away near Deseronto as part of a "national day of action."

Const. Sandra Barr said this morning that Brant was not in custody, and could not say when the warrant would be executed.

"We're assessing the situation continually, and if something new comes to light in regards to the warrant, it will be acted on," Barr told CanWest News Service. "Things to this point have been peaceful, which is appreciated both by us, and I'm sure, the demonstrators as well. We're hoping it will remain peaceful.

"We respect lawful, peaceful protests, but we're not going to tolerate criminal activity, and that's where the arrest warrant stems from," she said, noting the warrant was based on a bonfire at Highway 2.

Protesters warned they had guns at the ready as they blocked the highways and trains Thursday night.

Just before midnight, protesters dressed in army gear moved in on Highway 401, Canada's busiest highway that connects Montreal and Toronto, hours after nearby Highway 2 was also blocked.

Four lanes of Highway 401 - two eastbound and two westbound - were closed after police confirmed the protesters' intentions and addressed the situation.

"The 401 was shut down simultaneously between OPP and natives," Brant said.

"It was OPP who shut it down in a pre-emptive manner in anticipation of a move we were making towards the 401. We're the type of people who do what we're going to say and they took it seriously and decided to pre-empt that." Protesters also forced the three trains - two from Ottawa, one from Montreal - to stay in Kingston, Ont. All trains were en route to Toronto.

A Via Rail official said the Crown corporation was arranging buses to transport the more than 400 stranded passengers.

Via had already announced it was cancelling its Toronto-Montreal and Toronto-Ottawa routes today, affecting 5,000 passengers booked on 24 different trains.

Earlier Thursday, Brant headed the procession as members turned away traffic on Highway 2 - an alternate route to Highway 401.

Several men and women dressed in army gear, some with bandannas covering their faces, accompanied a white rusted-out school bus down the highway.

One angry motorist was confronted by several protesters as he turned around at the blockade. "Move your f---ing car," a protester yelled at the motorist through a loudspeaker.

"You won't see any photos of us waving guns around, but it's certainly something we have access to," said Brant.

The protests had been set to begin at midnight today, with OPP advising motorists throughout the early morning hours of road closures related to the protest in more rural areas of Wahta and Alderville.

The Assembly of First Nations' plea for public support will see more than 100 events planned from coast to coast.

The Tyendinaga Mohawk administration has not officially sanctioned the blockade. About 2,100 of the band's 7,600 members live on the reserve. Many protesters are expected from other First Nations communities and non-native organizations.

"It certainly won't be the overwhelming majority of our people," said R. Donald Maracle, chief of the Bay of Quinte Mohawks.

"There's the risk of backlash. The danger is there could be a lack of support for First Nations issues if the public is inconvenienced."

Maracle said he doesn't expect violence, expressing surprise at reports the blockade members plan to arm themselves for possible confrontations with police.

He added the council planned to distribute information pamphlets to re-routed highway traffic, detailing their disputes over claims and program funding.

Brant, meanwhile, said he expects to incur the wrath of angry motorists as the Mohawks block the two key highways on the first day of a long weekend.

But he pointed out the group's rotating series of protests targeting the economy do far more to raise awareness about poverty and the slow pace of land claims than rallies and marches.

"I'm not being cold and callous, but I think that this whole situation should be seen as a disgrace on the Canadian public, certainly over the past number of years. We actually have more (community) support than last time. We're excited about it."

The Canadian Pacific Railway has agreed to bring 300 trains to a stop for one minute at 2 p.m. ET today in a symbolic act of solidarity with First Nations.

Meanwhile, OPP commissioner Julian Fantino said native people have the constitutional right to protest and he doesn't want police actions to escalate demonstrations into confrontations.

"We're certainly in a position where we want to demonstrate goodwill," he said. "We certainly do not want to become the cause of conflict."

Fantino's conciliatory tone suggested, however, that the OPP is not about to storm any barricades to immediately attempt to dislodge demonstrators.

"There's always a time when enough is enough. We will certainly negotiate diligently, we'll talk to the extent that we can. But we will also deal with lawbreaking for what it is. It may not be immediate," said Fantino.

"We're very mindful of what can happen and so our response will be measured. It will be thought out. And it will be one that under the circumstances will be justifiable."

As Mohawks took a hard-line approach, Phil Fontaine, the national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, pleaded for peaceful protests.

"The only way we can get the government to act in a responsible and appropriate way is to reach out to Canadians and we are trying to do it in the most respectful and peaceful way possible," Fontaine said earlier. "That is what June 29 is about.''

Fontaine met with RCMP officials prior to the demonstrations to sign a protocol intended to make sure things stayed calm during the protest. He said the pact would help keep a good relation between police and protesters.

"If they so wish to engage in civil disobedience, they can - as long as they are prepared to accept the consequences. I think we have to be very careful that those rights are not denied to one segment of the Canadian population.''

In April, tensions over unresolved land claim issues prompted Mohawk protesters to blockade one of Canada's busiest rail lines between Montreal and Toronto. Protesters parked an old school bus on a stretch of CN-owned rail, located near Deseronto, in the two-day standoff just west of Kingston.

The standoff paralyzed rail traffic between the country's two most populous cities, and resulted in a lawsuit worth millions filed by CN against the organizers.

The protest also disrupted thousands of weekend travellers driving on Highway 401, Ontario's busiest highway. The highway is also one of Canada's main trucking routes.

While the demonstrations were non-violent, event organizers hoped the economic consequences would force the provincial government to resolve ongoing land claims in the region. Mohawk tribes claim substantial parcels of land around Lake Ontario are their ancestral home lands. An ongoing dispute in nearby Caledonia, Ont., over a planned housing development erupted into violence between protesters and police late last year.


The OPP have closed the 401 between Highway 41 and Highway 37 in Napanee. Both east and westbound lanes are closed due to the blockade.

Travelers traveling westbound to Toronto are being directed by police to exit at Highway 41 north to Highway 7, west to Highway 37 and travel south.

Travelers eastbound to Montreal or Ottawa are being directed by police to exit at Highway 37 north to Highway 7 and south on Highway 41.

With files from the National Post, Winnipeg Free Press and Ottawa Citizen


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## formerarmybrat23 (29 Jun 2007)

theres nothing i can say about this situation that won't violate the paper I just signed upon completing my enrollment interview. That being said, they as a goup have never had my support, and contiuing with these antics, I seriously doubt they will get anyones. 

Imagine the police reaction if any other group did this. Lets say the marijuana party halted the 401 and demanded that the government legalize pot? how fast would the cops start busting heads then? I'm for rallys and protests, as long as they do not interfer with another persons freewill rights.

Honestly, I've driven the 401 and it can be brutal in the regualr traffic jam. I am surprised that people have not mowed down the protesters with their cars. Toronto drivers aren't exactly peaceful. they are intolerant and ready to road rage! I only hope that the police actually do what they are supposed to, and get these people out of the way of traffic before someone gets injured or killed. 

I'm done with the whole subject. Over and over we see the same comments made on this matter. Nothing ever gets accomplished and at the end of the day we are exactly the same. I have a feeling that even if we granted all land claims, and kept throwing money at them, there would still be something else. Just like a spoiled child, it would never be enough. Argh I'm done :deadhorse:


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## nowhere_man (29 Jun 2007)

Couldn't we fix the whole problem if we dismantled the reserve system and made everyone go out and get a job like every non native person has to?

There wouldn't be water problems, housing problems, or suicide problems and then we wouldn't have a bunch of yahoo's blocking the bustiest highway in the country.


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## The_Falcon (29 Jun 2007)

formerarmybrat23 said:
			
		

> Imagine the police reaction if any other group did this. Lets say the marijuana party halted the 401 and demanded that the government legalize pot? how fast would the cops start busting heads then? I'm for rallys and protests, as long as they do not interfer with another persons freewill rights.



No need to imagine, all one has to do as look at all the confrontations between Toronto Police and OCAP.  Anytime OCAP has tried squating, protesting etc in the last few year, they were shutdown immediately.  This was mostly during Fantino's tenure as TPS chief.  Now as OPP head honcho he does nothing except help the terrorists, and mouth platitudes about enforcing the law.  His actions both past and present confirm that, if your non-native you will have dozens up dozens of police officers descend upon them to break up your little occupations/protests/squats.  If your Native you get a warrant for "mischief" isssued for your arrest (that will be excuted at a mutually convient time I am sure), at the worst  :  Wow, way to show the terrorist your serious Fantino. Pathetic!


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## kratz (29 Jun 2007)

The public is aware:

Instead of going to work on my normal route, we are all taking the other bridge.
Instead of taking the fast route to our long weekend vacation, we are all taking the ferry.
Instead of heading out, we are staying home and enjoying the company of our local friends and family.

The protest, as stated is meant to be a disruptive / economic protest and the public is responding in kind by not letting it affect them.


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/06/17/4268111-cp.html
> Highlights are mine, to show plain and simple these are the actions of a TERRORIST, and this IS DOMESTIC TERRORSIM.  This sob Brant is agitating for a violent confrontation, and is taking steps to ensure it happens.  Why is this scumbag still free? We have thrown people in the clink on terrorsim charges, and they haven't done half the crap this ******* has done (not to say they are innocent or guilty, but to show, the huge double standard out there).  This is sickening and pathetic, that our governments allow this crap to continue on.  So far Fantino's all bark and no bite.  And so much for equal rule of law.



We already have a significant problem in this country with people speaking in public venues and getting the definitions of criminal acts and terrorist acts mixed up.  Dont add to it.


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## The_Falcon (30 Jun 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> We already have a significant problem in this country with people speaking in public venues and getting the definitions of criminal acts and terrorist acts mixed up.  Dont add to it.



I am not getting anything mixed up, here are the terrorist activity laws straight from the criminal code


http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_II_1-gb:s_83_18//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II_1-gb:s_83_18 



> 83.01(1)
> "terrorist activity" means
> 
> (b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
> ...



I don't know about you greymatter, but to me, their actions fit perfectly with the areas I bolded.  They (Brant and his followers) caused serious interference/serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system when they blockaded the 401, Highway 2, and the CN Rail line,  they have endagered peoples lives, had the potential to cause serious risk to public safety, by openly declaring they were ARMED and threatening the use of violence should the police attempt to disperse them, as well these tactics can very be seen as intimitated the public (army clothes, face masks, weapons), and the publics economic security (VIA rail cancelling train service, CN stopping frieght, transport trucks unable to deliver good, because the main highways are shut down).

Thanks for the lecture but do your homework first, they have committed CRIMINAL TERRORIST ACTS, whether people want to acknowledge it or not. And it will continue and get worse so long as our governement and their respective law enforcement agencies pussy foot about, and not hold them to accout for their actions.


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Jun 2007)

Hachetman,

So what would you have us do, then- call in airstrikes from Bagotville?  Or turn JTF-2 loose on them?  Just because a highway and a rail line got blocked for 24 hrs (and no one was hurt)? How, exactly, do you think that would play out?  Do you think it would:

a) escalate a touchy situation? or
b) deescalate a touchy situation?

Take your time in answering...

Look- sometimes, the right thing to do is nothing.  While I do not support violence in getting your political message across, I do think the First Nations have (in general) some justification to be unhappy with the land claims settlement system in Canada (that said, I also think Shawn Brant is a publicity seeking hothead).  Going off half-cocked and rushing in guns blazing makes the Natives victims and creates the conditions for a rallying point that could lead to an armed insurrection the likes of which North America has not seen since the end of the 1800s- All because your sense of "justice" is upset.  Not to put too fine a point on it but- Grow up and think strategic, not tactical.


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## GAP (30 Jun 2007)

What seems to be missed here is that there has been a massive drawback by the natives regarding this day of protest. Rather than focus on  an idiot, focus on what was done by Fontaine and others to minimize ill will by the public....bet that took a lot of arm twisting!!


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Jun 2007)

Gap-
I think the Government announcement earlier this month about appointing a binding Land Claims board had something to do with that, too.

In my mind, if we can sort out the majority of the land claims relatively quickly, even if it costs a fair bit of money, it gets the Natives on the road to self-sufficiency and off of the teat- which should have been the goal all along.


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## observor 69 (30 Jun 2007)

JEFFREY SIMPSON  had a good column in the Friday G&M. His basic point was how can Indians expect to sustain modern services, health education etc, when they insist in living in small numbers in remote locations (see water treatment story of late).
Fighting over claims is one matter but as a people wouldn't it make sense to move near larger communities to be able to take advantage of municipal services,say clean water, good medical serves etc etc.


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Jun 2007)

Baden Guy-

There is certainly something to what you are saying, but imagine how difficult it would be to abandon everything you have ever known and leave your community (disfunctional as it may be) to move someplace totally foreign.

This is a bit off topic, but, I am always struck by a certain element of the "intellectual" community (for lack of a better label), when they exhort Natives to remain on their reserves, return to nature and turn their backs on the 21st century- I guess so they can be a living museum to amuse others.  

The Buffalo ain't coming back; the Europeans ain't going away.  Many native communities are only 2-3 generations out of a pre-industrial way of life, but they must adapt to modern Canadian life or die (in cultural sense, not literally).  Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to suggest many solutions.


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I am not getting anything mixed up, here are the terrorist activity laws straight from the criminal code
> 
> Thanks for the lecture but do your homework first, they have committed CRIMINAL TERRORIST ACTS, whether people want to acknowledge it or not. And it will continue and get worse so long as our governement and their respective law enforcement agencies ***** foot about, and not hold them to accout for their actions.



Just because a law is written poorly doesnt mean you can apply it willy-nilly to any situation.  According to your interpretation any person who waves a gun around, or belongs to a motorcycle gang, or says he intends to do a person harm, can be charged with terrorism.  There are definite differences between criminal and terrorist acts, and before you criticize others you should learn to discern the difference yourself.


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## youravatar (30 Jun 2007)

The Akwesasne Mohawk Reserve near Cornwall Ontario is a hot bed of criminal activity, namely smuggling of drugs, firearms and contraband cigarettes. If this is the typical way most natives want to help themselves then maybe they shouldn't. I'm not saying all natives down there are smugglers, just not enough is being done to stop them because the RCMP and the Cornwall Community Police don't have the legislation, and resources to do so. 

...

I don't have time to finish this rant. But the long and short of it is they're committing borderline terrorist acts.


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## The_Falcon (30 Jun 2007)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Hachetman,
> 
> So what would you have us do, then- call in airstrikes from Bagotville?  Or turn JTF-2 loose on them?  Just because a highway and a rail line got blocked for 24 hrs (and no one was hurt)? How, exactly, do you think that would play out?  Do you think it would:



Now your just getting silly, I would let the police handle it, if they wanted to up the ante, that would be their decision.  It was 2 Highways and a rail line, and being from BC, you might not realize that the 401 is THE major highway in southern Ontario, and shutting it down completely in any section can have sever economic ramifications (same goes for the rail line, reports were CN rail had to stop/reroute over $100million worth of goods, not to mention all the VIA passengers).  So it may have only got blocked for 24hrs, who's to say it wouldn't have been blocked for longer?  Or that next time they pull this stunt (And I guarantee there will be a next time) they block it longer.  And again no one was hurt this time, but that doesn't negate that there could been a very large potential for people to get hurt.  All it takes is one person who is fed up with this to try and run the blockade, or a native with an itchy trigger finger to do something stupid. So would my actions possible escalate the situation, sure. But they would definetly think twice before doing anything like this again.  And its a whole lot better than appeasement, and letting them carry on with no fear of the consequences of their actions




> Look- sometimes, the right thing to do is nothing.


 Right... : because that always works. In the last 18 months of doing nothing, we have seen more and more "occupations" and "blockades", and every time, the tone and the actions of those involved has been increasingly beligerent ("we have no weapons, we are being peaceful" Caledonia 18 months ago - "We have/have access to guns, and we will use them if you try and stop us" 401/Rail Blockade 2 days ago).  Sorry the bury your head in the sand, and hope the nice protestors play nice approach, is cleary not working.  There have been no police interventions since they botched caledonia, and yet, these "protestors" (terrorists) are still increasing their hostility.



> While I do not support violence in getting your political message across, I do think the First Nations have (in general) some justification to be unhappy with the land claims settlement system in Canada


I don't disagree, but in that case to the protests to the government, and leave the rest of us out it.




> (that said, I also think Shawn Brant is a publicity seeking hothead).  Going off half-cocked and rushing in guns blazing makes the Natives victims and creates the conditions for a rallying point that could lead to an armed insurrection the likes of which North America has not seen since the end of the 1800s- All because your sense of "justice" is upset.  Not to put too fine a point on it but- Grow up and think strategic, not tactical.



They (brant and his people) are itching do that regardless.  And its not just MY sense of justice, there are lots of people who are getting fed up with this lawlessness, and these appeasment tactics and bury your head in the sand approaches. ANY other group/faction/ what have you, that tried pulling this crap would have been dealt with swiftly a long time ago.  



			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Just because a law is written poorly doesnt mean you can apply it willy-nilly to any situation.  According to your interpretation any person who waves a gun around, or belongs to a motorcycle gang, or says he intends to do a person harm, can be charged with terrorism.


Not my interpretation, thats the way the law was written (and if you don't like they the law is worded, go lobby your MP), and if the situation fits and cops want to use it in any of those circumstances, so be it.



> There are definite differences between criminal and terrorist acts, and before you criticize others you should learn to discern the difference yourself.



Alright then, you said their are differences between criminal acts and terrorists acts, twice now what are those differences?.  Considering what I posted is taken directly from the CRMINAL CODE OF CANADA (Part II.1), explain to me how these are seperate entities (criminal vs terrorist)?


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Alright then, you said their are differences between criminal acts and terrorists acts, twice now what are those differences?.  Considering what I posted is taken directly from the CRMINAL CODE OF CANADA (Part II.1), explain to me how these are seperate entities (criminal vs terrorist)?



Well, now that you ask...  

The purpose of the law on terrorist acts was to recognize that certain acts were held in great abhorence by society due to their tremendous physical and pyschological effects on society, and that any persons who commit (or planned to commit) such acts needed to receive punishment (if found guilty) much more severe than was already in place in the criminal code.  Now you end up with an addition to our structure of more and more unacceptable behaviour with appropriate levels of stricter and stricter punishments. 

     Socially accepted behaviour   
     Unaceptable social behaviour that requires correction
     Unacceptable acts for which a person or group can be held civially liable for
     Unacceptable acts for which a person or group can be prosecuted criminally for, and
     Unacceptable acts that a person or group commits classified as terrorism or terrorist acts.

In the case of the Native group, yes their actions are unacceptable to parts of society, yes they can be held civilly liable for disrupting traffic and causing economic losses to local businesses, or any damage they cause, yes, their threats of using guns against others is a criminal offense, but this is not terrorism, nor are they commiting terrorist acts (but they are awfully close!) 

Consider the following:

A 14 year old on an airplane pulls out a plastic water pistol, points it at the stewardess, and says 'Bang your dead'.
A gang of Grade 10 students extort money from a group of grade 9 students using threats of physical violence. 
Union members of a bike gang on a picket line threaten truck drivers by telling them 'we know where you live'. 
A 16 year old hacker gets into the city database and shuts down the traffic management system. 
A mentally disturbed man enters a university and shoots 16 women.     
A postal worker walks into his workplace and shoots the manager and several colleages then himself. 
A man deliberately drives his car into the front entrance of a military orderly room. 
A man with an explosive strapped to his body enters a bank and demands all the cash or he will detonate himself.     
A gang of Hispanic youth threaten to torch a mans house if he doesnt give them money, and threaten to shoot police when they arrive at the scene. 
Anarchists start an anti-government protest, with some masked members carrying weapons so they can attack police officers. 

Compared with:

A 26 year old man belonging to an organization remotely explodes a vehicle in front of an office building, destroying the building and killing many of the occupants. 


See the difference?  Everyone of these events could be classified as 'terrorist' acts according the definitions in the law given, which would demand the utmost penalty that the law could deliver 9as it should).  But these are not all terrorist acts.  Only the last is a true terrorist act, all the others are criminal acts.


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

The second difference is in the use of the words 'criminal' and 'terrorist'.  Criminals are not terrorists or we would call them all terrorists.  Terrorists are not criminals or we would call them all criminals.  (Edit - thats why its called the 'War on Terror' and not the 'War on Crime')

There is also a difference in goals.   The ultimate goal for Criminals is to acquire money.  The ultimate goal for Terrorists is to seek power and inlfuence.


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## The_Falcon (30 Jun 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> See the difference?  Everyone of these events could be classified as 'terrorist' acts according the definitions in the law given, which would demand the utmost penalty that the law could deliver 9as it should).  But these are not all terrorist acts.  Only the last is a true terrorist act, all the others are criminal acts.



No most of those examples would not qualify as "terrorist activity" (which is the actual offence under the law) under the law because they do not meet this section "(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause,".  Some could fit, and if they do, I'd say charge them. 

You may not like the fact the law for terrorist activity can include actions that don't fit neatly into your little world of "only these actions and these actions only, constitute terrorist activity" but tough ****, thats the way the law is written.   Some Terrorist "Acts" maybe more severe than others, but thats why the law prohibits various acts that can be considered terroristic and not specific acts (such as blowing up a building).  




			
				GreyMatter said:
			
		

> The second difference is in the use of the words 'criminal' and 'terrorist'.  Criminals are not terrorists or we would call them all terrorists.  Terrorists are not criminals or we would call them all criminals.  (Edit - thats why its called the 'War on Terror' and not the 'War on Crime')




Hmm last time I checked there were a bunch of people in the Toronto area, who are currently in the CRIMINAL justice system, facing CRIMINAL trial, on CRIMINAL charges of TERRORISM.  Sorry in this country you can be a terrorist and a criminal.



> There is also a difference in goals.   The ultimate goal for Criminals is to acquire money.


Really.... :  So rapists, child molesters, child porn producers/collectors, murderers like bernardo and olson, vandals, wife/child abusers, are all in it for the money huh?  And none of them ever do any of their crimes becaue it gives them power and influence over people, and makes them feel like they are in control?



> The ultimate goal for Terrorists is to seek power and inlfuence.



And terrorists and terror groups have never done anything for monetary gain?  Also what do you think all these native group are trying to get every time they occupy something, and they don't ask for more money like two days ago.  They get some power and influence (over some people anyways), because they were able to control the situation and dictate how things were going to go.


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## Greymatters (30 Jun 2007)

If you didnt agree with it, all you had to say was, "I dont agree".  There are always exceptions that can be pointed out, and I can do the same thing too: 

Thieves = money, extortion = money, robbery = money, fraud = money, tax evasion = money, kidnapping = money, Mafia = money, Yakuza = money, OMG = money, etc.

Hamas = power/influence, Fatah = power/influence, Taliban = power/influence, AQ = power/influence, etc.

But back to the Native issue - Do you still see them as terrorists?  If so, then you have a right to your opinion, but dont expect everyone else to agree with you.


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## The_Falcon (30 Jun 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> If you didnt agree with it, all you had to say was, "I dont agree".  There are always exceptions that can be pointed out, and I can do the same thing too:



Why, when it is so much more fun to poke holes in your generalist statements.



> But back to the Native issue - Do you still see them as terrorists?  If so, then you have a right to your opinion, but dont expect everyone else to agree with you.




Do I see all natives as terrorists? No.  Just the same as I don't see all Irish, Tamil, Arabs as terrorists.  Do I see David Brant, and his band of hooligans and thugs as terrorists?  Absolutely.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2007)

> I would let the police handle it, if they wanted to up the ante, that would be their decision.



Ahh- but the OPP made a decision, didn't they? It just wasn't the one you wanted, was it?  

The OPP, the Province and the Feds all seemed to agree that the stakes were too high to up the ante this past weekend.

Just for the sake of argument, Hatchet Man, let's pretend that the provisions of the Terrorist Act were applied on the Day of Action to those blocking highways and rail lines.  Now what?  It kind of compells the Feds to take some pretty extreme action- after all- we don't generally bargain with terrorists, do we?  And we don't let them walk around free, either.  Now, I'm pretty sure that the OPP tactical team and the regional RCMP ERT guys could take down Brant and his followers, but who really knows- it might require a JTF2 assist.  Now that Brant and his gang are in custody (or dead) following a take down that is sure to have been covered nationally and even internationally, just what do you suppose will be the reaction of every hot head from Oka to Caledonia to Hobema:

a) Do nothing, thinking, "wow, I better not mess with the Feds, I might get hurt or go to jail"
b) Immediately start blowing expensive things up, like rail lines, pipelines and telecommunications towers, all in solidarity for their fallen Native Brethren.

I personally think that situations like this, if handled too carelessly and roughly, are more likely to spawn more violence and chaos- and we will run out of Police and Military waayyy before we run out of angry young Natives in this country.  You are of course entitled to your own opinion, I am firmly on the side that the Terrorism Act is too blunt an instrument for this type of situation.  Now, if Brant and his boys go around kidnapping, planting IEDs and blowing things up- bring on the Terrorism Act- but save it as the last act, not as your opener.


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## Old Sweat (1 Jul 2007)

SeaKing Tacco is right. The OPP may have lost a battle (and that is debatable) but they scored a strategic victory. The blockades were lifted; nobody was hurt; and Brant and associates lost in the court of public opinion, if not in the eyes of the media. If anything, they deflected media attention from the main event of the day - a peaceful demonstration by the AFN - and left an overwhelming impression that (not all) natives have no respect for the law.


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## civmick (9 Jul 2007)

The blockade has shown two things though - 

1.  The CN railway line is a single point of failure which would have disastrous economic consequences if closed for *any* reason for an extended period.  The closed parts of the CP line between Ottawa and Toronto should be acquired by Ontario and reopened.

2.  The willingness of the media to promote the fact that Brant et al sabotaged railway signals and that it's not hard to do.  All it needs now is for a few bored louts in suburbia to start googling how to do it rather than do their usual chucking rocks off overpasses or whatever.


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## Rowshambow (9 Jul 2007)

When first reading this, I was prob like most Canadians, tired of hearing about this crap, if I did it their way I would be locked up for quite awhile, I did like Seakingtacos input, and I do have to agree with it, even though it wasn't the desired effect that I wanted (throw them all in jail) he is right, it was a good way not to spark more drastic measure by the offending people. We are talking mainly about the east (401 and the rail line) and seaking did mention Hobema, now if they did the same thing on HWY2 Out here in Alberta, there would be even more economic crisis, it is pretty much the only  North-South road for Alberta (and we all know the rest of Canada wants its money) So by letting them do their "peaceful protest" it prob deflected allot of would be havoc. I am sure that's what the "hardlined" natives wanted, for us to go in guns blazing, so they could have the anarchy that some of them disire.


----------



## a_majoor (24 Oct 2007)

You can hear the howls of outrage now:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=08ef1454-987a-423a-b6b7-102e6a2c37ee&p=2



> *Off the reservation*
> The reserve system is Canada's worst moral failing. Let's do the right thing and get rid of it
> 
> Jonathan Kay
> ...


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## medaid (24 Oct 2007)

Thread hijack!!

Since the MSM is always such sticklers for PC, I believe that they should start addressing the First Nations people as what they are, NOT as 'Indians'. Indians as we ALL should know are from yup, you guessed it INDIA! The people of India are not East Indians, but just Indians. Now I say this because my better half corrects me when I make the occasional mistake since she's IndoCanadian she feels that it's her duty to correct my mistake.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## geo (24 Oct 2007)

In french we refer to native americans as "Amerindiens" (American Indians)
We will use the term "Autochtone" when refering to all native people - be they Amerindiens, Innu or Inuit.


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## UberCree (24 Oct 2007)

That is a good article.  People on my side of the 'fence' (the Native side) need to be more open to views that may be contrary to theirs.  Argueing that anyone that believes in dismantling the reserve system is racist serves no one any benefit.

I disagree with Jonathan Kay however.  I feel the best approach would be for the federal government to take the same approach the IMF is taking with third world development.  Money shoud be tied to good governance practices.  There should be a sliding scale of federal support for reserves.  If a community practices good governance, accountability, transparency, economic development, etc. (developed in their own way as long as it meets a minimum standard) then their funding should reflect their success.  If a community fails to develop any good governance structures then their funding should reflect their lack of willingness to move forward.  As an example if a band were to collect income taxes (no such thing as 'sovereignty' without taxation) then match the amount collected and slowly phase out the amount until the community could support itself. 

The IMF program was described by Colin Powell in a past issue of Foreign Policy, but I cannot remember what it was called. 

In some cases all it would take is for a chief and council to ratify provincial legislation through a Band Council Resolution (BCR) - such as Provincial human rights acts which are non-applicable on reserve.  In other cases communities could develop their own legislative practices that promote good governance (what we are TRYING to do in my community).  

The approach taken by the federal government currently promotes dysfunctional leadership.  They encourage 'negotiations' that involve flying chiefs around and spending money on modern day trinkets.  Some chiefs are rarely if ever in their communities ... they are away negotiating with the feds.  The next chief comes in full of piss and vinegar, then the travel bennies begin again.  As an example education funding has not been adjusted since 1996 - yet representatives from the AFN have been 'negotiating' to increase the base education funding level since 1997 ... usually in nice hotels in Ottawa of course.   No one wants to fix the problem, they just want their turn at the perks of 'leadership'.


----------



## Greymatters (24 Oct 2007)

A very honest opinion, Ubercree, didnt know that that was happening withthe Chiefs...


----------



## UberCree (24 Oct 2007)

Here are the IMF Standards.

http://www.imf.org/external/standards/scnew.htm


List of Standards, Codes and Prinicples
Useful for Bank and Fund Operational Work and for which Reports on the Observance of Standards and Codes Are Produced 
November 2002

Transparency standards: the standards in these areas were developed and are assessed by the Fund. They cover issues of data and policy transparency.

Data Transparency: The Fund's Special Data Dissemination Standard/General Data Dissemination System (SDDS/GDDS).

Fiscal Transparency: the Fund's Code of Good Practices on Fiscal Transparency.

Monetary and Financial Policy Transparency: the Fund's Code of Good Practices on Transparency in Monetary and Financial Policies (usually assessed by the Fund and the Bank under the Joint Fund-Bank Financial Sector Assessment Program (FSAP)).

Financial sector standards: the standards in these areas have been developed by other institutions and are generally assessed under the FSAP.

Banking Supervision: Basel Committee's Core Principles for Effective Banking Supervision (BCP).

Securities: International Organization of Securities Commissions' (IOSCO) Objectives and Principles for Securities Regulation.

Insurance: International Association of Insurance Supervisors' (IAIS) Insurance Supervisory Principles.

Payments and Securitites Settlement Systems: Committee on Payments and Settlements Systems (CPSS) Core Principles for Systemically Important Payments Systems and CPSS-IOSCO Joint Task Force's Recommendations for Securities Setttlement Systems.

Anti-Money Laundering and Combating the Financing of Terrorism: Financial Action Task Force's (FATF's) 40+8 Recommendations. 

Standards concerned with market integrity: standards in these areas have been developed by relevant institutions and the Bank is in the lead in undertaking assessments. Some of these areas may be assessed under the FSAP.

Corporate Governance: OECD's Principles of Corporate Governance.

Accounting: International Accounting Standards Board's International Accounting Standards (IAS).

Auditing: International Federation of Accountants' International Standards on Auditing.

Insolvency and creditor rights1/:


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## a_majoor (24 Oct 2007)

UberCree, while I agree that good governance is the key issue, the real question is what sets the conditions for "good governance"?

Looking around, I see patently idiotic decisions by my local city council, or the record of scandles the Federal Government compiled from 1993 to 2005, yet in theory, these institutions are well defined and run by supposedly rational people. What drives things is incentives, and when given access to virtually unlimited monies and power without checks and transparency, people have perverse incentives to do things for their own self benefit rather than the taxpayer's benefit.

Jonathan Kay is essentially proposing that the "perverse incentives" be cut off at the root, so native self governance is indeed local, transparent and effective. Essentially, band councils will be forced to take the steps you propose since they are directly accountable to the people and no one will be there to bail them out when they make self serving decisions. As you pointed out, the Cheifs are far better off with the system as it stands today, and have every reason to drag their feet on an incrimental approach. Of course, they have every reason to fight Jonathan Kay's proposal tooth and nail as well.


----------



## Strike (24 Oct 2007)

UberCree,

Nice to see you back.

Completely agree with you.  It would also be a benifit to have those Bands who have a proven track record of success (there are several on both the East and West coasts and I'm sure a smattering elsewhere) get involved with those Bands looking to improve their situation by building a business plan.  Maybe even involve Aboriginals from other nations who have had successes of their own (many Maori tribes in NZ run some GREAT tourist businesses.

I believe it was the Chief from the Membertou (sp?) band down east who tried this...with little success though.  Ran into a brick wall when he told various councils they had to get off their collective behinds and work if they wanted to see improvements in their communities.

http://www.membertou.ca/community_news_article.asp?ID=20


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (2 Dec 2011)

> Taken from CBC News Posted: Dec 2, 2011 11:23 AM ET
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/02/attawapiskat-chief-friday.html
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper says that First Nations communities must develop "strong, accountable" systems of self-government in the long run, as Ottawa grapples with a housing crisis in the remote First Nations community of Attawapiskat.
> ...


I fully agree with accountability required for the First Nations leaders needing to be accountable for the funds they're given.  As it is there is little to no accountability when money is transferred to these communities, and in some cases you have rampant corruption.  I will not name names or lable communities, but there are some Council leaders that live in homes worth over $1million dollars in Thunder Bay while their communities suffer.  In other cases money is simply mismanaged and not used in the way it should be to help the community.  While this is not the case in all places, it is a systemic problem as every two years a new leader and council is voted in and it turns into a popularity contest.  It's commonly referred to as the "two year cash grab".

The last line sparks some outrage as many in the local communities have benefitted heavily from the mines being in existence.  They are given jobs and the communities do receive benefits from the mines being there, one of which is having their winter roads fully maintained by the company's that use them on a regular basis which is a large cost saver.

As for the housing issue, there have been incidents where a new home was given to residents in communities and they didn't like it for whatever reason so they refused to move in until given a better one more to their liking.  I wish I could provide you with concrete examples, but I don't want to implicate names and specific communities as it is a rather touchy subject.

Moving forward on fiscal responsibility is the way to go in the end so that the communities can receive the funding they require, and the government can have transparency with Canadians as a whole on how their taxes are spent.  All Canadians regardless of geographic location are entitled to certain rights.

_- Mod edit to better reflect the overall subject of the thread -_


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## Bass ackwards (2 Dec 2011)

First of all, this should probably be in _Canadian Politics_ or some other such thread.
Secondly, this may well turn into a bun fight and get locked before very long.

Having said all that, you're absolutely right, Trucker. 
In my experience, no one -absolutely _no one_- can screw over Indians better than other Indians. Custer, Sheridan et al would be envious.

Accountability ain't gonna happen though. They can freeze, starve, die of disease, commit suicide en masse, or just fade off the radar... the compassionate crowd in Ottawa Just. Doesn't. Care.
They care about not being accused of racism. They care about being in power. And if a bunch of sad, sorry, perpetually f*cked over people have to suffer for that..well, the ends justifies the means -doesn't it ? 

I'll be blunt and admit that a decade and a half of living in places like Sioux Lookout and Thompson has seriously whittled away my sympathy for aboriginals, but yeah, they're getting screwed. They will continued to get screwed -by their own- and nothing will be done about it. Mr. Harper and his party may try - but they'll be hauled down by the CBC, the Libs, the NDP and the band chiefs. 
More of yours and my tax dollars will be sent -that's the solution after all, isn't it ? And the cycle will continue.

Cynical, I know, but hey, there it is.


----------



## dapaterson (2 Dec 2011)

The very existence of a department of "Aboriginal Affairs" is representative of the great national failing.  (I once read a rather telling suggestion:  compare the homes of the senior ADMs in that department with the average homes of those their department is intended to help.)


Indeed, the needs and concerns of first nations / Métis / Innu and other groups vary widely - the needs of the Dene differ from those of the Sto Lo which differ from the concerns of the Mohawks; within the Mohawks there are significant differences between largely urban Kanewake and trans-national Akwesasne.  There is no "one size fits all" solution.


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## MJP (2 Dec 2011)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> They care about not being accused of racism. They care about being in power. And if a bunch of sad, sorry, perpetually ****** over people have to suffer for that..well, the ends justifies the means -doesn't it ?


Bang-on

I was bored at work and decided to see what our friends at Rabble.ca had to say about the issue.  I was reading this topic here.  There were some good bad, some bad and a bunch of itsharpersfault posts.  Nothing out of the norm for a rabid left forum.  Then came reply #44 which basically said that some residents are glad of the audit and 3rd party control (which I also heard via interviews).

That somehow was racist posting that and the next 10-20 posts where nothing but dogpile on the poster.  It was disgusting how fast they trip over themselves to accuse folks of racism when it comes to sensitive matters like this.  It seems that making people accountable for taxpayer money if they are not of the predominant "race" in this country is racist.  

My thought is that a large part of the problem is apathy within the native community at large to demand change from their people in how they are managed and governed.  The governments at all levels have made mistakes, I fully admit but to continue to play the "woe is me card" is starting to get tired.  Start making your people work for you rather than blaming the rest of Canada for all your problems.


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## vonGarvin (2 Dec 2011)

Because we treat them differently from other human beings we call Canadians, they will suffer.

Fuck the entire racist policy of the department of *whatever the current politically correct term for the various tribes of Canada is* affairs, and disband it.  Treat them exactly as they treat me, you, and every other Canadian.  And hold them equally accountable.  Problem solved.


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## Staff Weenie (2 Dec 2011)

So, approx $90 million in funding provided over the last six years, for a pop of 1,800. That comes to approx $8,333 per person per year. I wonder how that equates to the provision of federal funding per person in other locations.

That said, I really have little to no sympathy at all - how many generations of welfare do we have to pay for? Their honoured ancestors were never, ever, so pathetically foolish and unmotivated - if there were no resources in a region, they moved. They didn't wait for somebody to fix their problems, they looked after themselves perfectly well. I refuse to accept any personal responsibility for their condition, neither myself or my family have done them any wrong, and I'm tired of them trying to blame every other Canadian for events generations in the past - get over it and make something of yourselves.


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## Danjanou (2 Dec 2011)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> First of all, this should probably be in _Canadian Politics_ or some other such thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (2 Dec 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Because we treat them differently from other human beings we call Canadians, they will suffer.
> 
> frig the entire racist policy of the department of *whatever the current politically correct term for the various tribes of Canada is* affairs, and disband it.  Treat them exactly as they treat me, you, and every other Canadian.  And hold them equally accountable.  Problem solved.



Hear, Hear!!


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## Brad Sallows (2 Dec 2011)

At cbc.ca/news, I found this gem:



> In a statement issued Thursday, Chief Theresa Spence said, “It is incredible that the Harper government’s decision is that instead of offering aid and assistance to Canada’s First Peoples, their solution is to blame the victim."



Translation: It pisses us off that the Harper government’s decision is that instead of offering more funds without strings, their solution is to demand and enforce accountability.


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## Haggis (3 Dec 2011)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Translation: It pisses us off that the Harper government’s decision is that instead of offering more funds without strings, their solution is to demand and enforce accountability.



That can't be a Google translation.. Google isn't that astute.


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## DBA (3 Dec 2011)

Natives want the trappings of modern and native societies without being part of modern society. That hasn't worked in the past and won't work in the future. They have to find some middle ground where they assimilate enough to get what they desire of modern society while retaining a lot of the native culture they value. In the past forced assimilation had others making the choices for them. Now they are free to make the choices themselves but make them they must. Some reserves have made the choices and a lot have been successful, others haven't and are not.


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## Rifleman62 (3 Dec 2011)

Has anyone reported, (the CBC, Angus, et al), the results of visiting the Chief, former Chief or Band Councillors residences (both on and off the reserve) or did they look for tents/shacks and visit thoes?


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## Michael OLeary (5 Dec 2011)

*Warmington: Send the army to help Attawapiskat*

By Joe Warmington ,Toronto Sun



> Military compassion has proudly assisted other countries in crisis and is now urgently needed in our own.
> 
> When it comes to troubled Attawapiskat there will be plenty of time for investigations, accounting of misused taxpayers’ money and political score settling.
> 
> ...



More at link.


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## ballz (5 Dec 2011)

I used to be part of a non-status band, but now that they've gotten status and all of a sudden everybody wants to be part of the band so they can milk the benefits (and they are milking the tits off the cow, let me tell ya), I've reneged on that. More importantly, I always grew up proud of my roots and loved the cultural aspects of being Mi'kmaq. Anyway, a lot of aboriginal issues hit close to home for me.

I don't know whether Attawapiskat needs military intervention, but what sticks out to me is the idea of sending the Canadian Rangers so that there is an "aboriginal face" showing up.

Why? If we're going to send in the Canadian Forces, why can't we send in the the Canadian Forces and all it's white, brown, black, red, male, female, heterosexual, homosexual, transexual, transgendered, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Athiest people.

We are all Canadians aren't we? Why not show that to the First Nations people in Attawapiskat, and let them know that they are, too.


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## Swingline1984 (5 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I used to be part of a non-status band, but now that they've gotten status and all of a sudden everybody wants to be part of the band so they can milk the benefits (and they are milking the tits off the cow, let me tell ya), I've reneged on that. More importantly, I always grew up proud of my roots and loved the cultural aspects of being Mi'kmaq. Anyway, a lot of aboriginal issues hit close to home for me.
> 
> I don't know whether Attawapiskat needs military intervention, but what sticks out to me is the idea of sending the Canadian Rangers so that there is an "aboriginal face" showing up.
> 
> ...



Best post ever.


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## medicineman (5 Dec 2011)

I'm still trying to figure out what the Rangers will able to bring to bear in way of logistics and such...beyond an Aboriginal face.  Sounds like what they need is engineer support to help sort out infratructure issues as well as folks to distribute supplies.

Please don't get me going about hyphenated Canadianism stuff...

MM


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## Scott (5 Dec 2011)

ballz, sometimes I think you tread jump up and down on yours. But that was a great post, thanks.


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## PanaEng (5 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I used to be part of a non-status band, but now that they've gotten status and all of a sudden everybody wants to be part of the band so they can milk the benefits (and they are milking the tits off the cow, let me tell ya), I've reneged on that. More importantly, I always grew up proud of my roots and loved the cultural aspects of being Mi'kmaq. Anyway, a lot of aboriginal issues hit close to home for me.
> 
> I don't know whether Attawapiskat needs military intervention, but what sticks out to me is the idea of sending the Canadian Rangers so that there is an "aboriginal face" showing up.
> 
> ...



CHIMO!


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## a_majoor (5 Dec 2011)

Sending in the engineers is applying a pressure dressing rather than a band aid, but still will do little to resolve the issues of corruption and mismanagment that the band is suffering under. No one can sit there and claim that $80-90 million dollars was "spent" on the people in the reservation; a cheque was sent but where did the money go afterwards?

Ballz has it right about the milking of the cow...


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## jasonf6 (5 Dec 2011)

I'll agree with sending in the Canadian Rangers as an aboriginal face to the operation but maybe some Engineers to shore up/build a proper water & sewer system.  But what they really need is an accounting firm to find out where that $90-million over 6-yrs has gone. I'm not math whiz but that much money should be more than enough to provide the services they require.  And the money hasn't stopped as Im sure they get annual payments.  

It's been reported that there are A LOT of First Nations Chiefs making in excess of $300,000.00/year which is FAR too much seeing as the PM doesn't even make that much and he runs the country (though some may disagree ).  

I don't think we can sit idly by but there is a much larger picture to look at also.


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## GAP (5 Dec 2011)

The major trouble I see with this is the precedent that would be set....kinda like clearing Toronto's snow......


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## Rifleman62 (5 Dec 2011)

All salary is tax free.


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## jasonf6 (5 Dec 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> The major trouble I see with this is the precedent that would be set....kinda like clearing Toronto's snow......


That's what I am thinking as well.  Although, the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic.


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## aesop081 (5 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> Although, the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic.



That does not mean that everything is an operation for the military.


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## jasonf6 (5 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That does not mean that everything is an operation for the military.


True enough, maybe operation isn't the word to use.  What would you call it?


----------



## aesop081 (5 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> What would you call it?



It does not matter what i, or you, call it. This is not a task for the military. Call it whatever you want but saying that "the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic" is wrong.

In Canada, we have releif agencies who are qualified and capable of dealing with this. It is for them do to it, not the CF.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> That's what I am thinking as well.  Although, the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic.





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It does not matter what i, or you, call it. This is not a task for the military. Call it whatever you want but saying that "the military is there for operations, both foreign and domestic" is wrong.
> 
> In Canada, we have releif agencies who are qualified and capable of dealing with this. It is for them do to it, not the CF.



That being said there are certain instances where we can do more than those agencies, in this case NO. Natural Disasters YES.

My  :2c:


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## OldSolduer (5 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> True enough, maybe operation isn't the word to use.  What would you call it?



In order for the CF to go in and assist, I beleive the Premier of Ontario has to call the PM and make the case for the deployment of troops, like the Premier of Manitoba did in May, and has done in the past. IF  this were to be done, then I beleive the CDS (and staff at CANCOM) would give the required orders. It indeed would be an operation.


Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?





.


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## Strike (5 Dec 2011)

Jim -- On top of that, such a request has to go through Public Safety, IIRC, who will also determine whether there is a more appropriate agency available to take on the task.


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## foresterab (5 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?



Emergency events are covered off via MOU with the provincies.  Costs associated with provincial response agencies are then billed back to the FN who in turn passes them on to INAC for re-imbursment assuming all costs are found valid.

In terms of deploying the Armed Forces the Federal Government does have the jurisdiction to enter and act on the reserve lands only but given the issues involved I highly doubt that this would happen absent of Ontario's consent.  i.e. drinking water and flooding issues involving upstream water supplies off reserve (Ont.), health care dollars (Ont. and Federal $$), health care facilities and standards (Ont.), building codes (Ont. standard although the Fed. gov't can ignore if desire IIRC).  "Little crown" Ontario does not have the right to enter and artibtrarily start changing things as treaty is with "big crown" Canada.

Honestly I've had to deal with this some for fires on Metis settlements and Reservations here in Alberta which is the basis of my comments above but not 100% on issues like health care, and building codes.  There's also some vague clauses in INAC on crown representatives showing up and how the role of the Indian Agent (I belive that is still the formal term) would administer rights but now you're into lawyer-ese I don't deal with.


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## Journeyman (5 Dec 2011)

_Personally_, I suspect that the question of jurisdiction and funding is a bit of a tangent; I believe it's more important to note that what the CF can do is not remotely the same as what it should do.

Can we mobilize all kinds of Construction Engineering people, strap them onto pallets, and LAPES them into Attawapiskat (their whininess at this mode of delivery notwithstanding)? Yes.

Should we? I've seen nothing yet to justify it; no.


----------



## Rifleman62 (5 Dec 2011)

I believe we do not do LAPES anymore, and have not for a decade so that option will be removed. Possibly the runway will take a Herc though.


----------



## a_majoor (5 Dec 2011)

The precident has been set; we sent a ROWPU to another reservation when they were having an infrastructure breakdown. 

Like I said, we can apply splints, pressure dressings and TCCC to the problem, and probably better than anyone else, but unless the underlying problems of corruption and mismanagment are addressed and resolved then there will be no real solution.


----------



## Journeyman (5 Dec 2011)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I believe we do not do LAPES anymore, and have not for a decade so that option will be removed. Possibly the runway will take a Herc though.


I know that we no longer have a LAPES capability; that was the plan's _only_ snag.    

The runway's only 3,495 ft; you'll see Cessna Caravans and DASH-8s, but no Hercs.


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## medicineman (5 Dec 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I know that we no longer have a LAPES capability; that was the plan's _only_ snag.
> 
> The runway's only 3,495 ft; you'll see Cessna Caravans and DASH-8s, but no Hercs.



Twin Otters too...though watching those guys getting LAPES'ed on their pallets would have been funny just to hear the crying and screaming.

MM


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## OldSolduer (5 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Like I said, we can apply splints, pressure dressings and TCCC to the problem, and probably better than anyone else, but unless the underlying problems of corruption and mismanagment are addressed and resolved then there will be no real solution.



Concur and well said. When some of the leaders of the First Nations are held accountable for their actions _thing_s might change.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> In order for the CF to go in and assist, I beleive the Premier of Ontario has to call the PM and make the case for the deployment of troops, like the Premier of Manitoba did in May, and has done in the past. IF  this were to be done, then I beleive the CDS (and staff at CANCOM) would give the required orders. It indeed would be an operation.
> 
> 
> Now, Attawapiskat being a First Nation that is funded by the Federal government, for the most part, and administered through INAC - the question is: Who has jurisdiction? Ontario or the Federal government?





			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Jim -- On top of that, such a request has to go through Public Safety, IIRC, who will also determine whether there is a more appropriate agency available to take on the task.



All partially right,

The way it goes is that the municipality must call a state of emergency and ask for help from the Provincial EMO, Provincial EMO must exhaust all possible avenues of approach. Then Provincial EMO must delcare a state of emergency and ask for formal help from the Federal Government through Public Safety Canada. Federal Government will then decide what resources are needed and will send them to the area. The CF's is usually the last line of defence for an emergency like this.


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## ballz (5 Dec 2011)

Yeah, my blood is boiling... shared with the usual caveats... yellow font is my emphasis

Attawapiskat asks third-party manager to leave
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/05/attawapiskat-manager-response.html?cmp=rss



> The third-party manager sent by the federal government to handle the desperate housing situation in Attawapiskat in northern Ontario has been asked by the band to leave, CBC News has confirmed.
> 
> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence told CBC News that she had informed the band manager of her decision.
> 
> ...



Sounds like she doesn't want anybody to find out how much dough she's making...


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## Rifleman62 (5 Dec 2011)

Just the opportunity for _*some*_ to continue to abuse the  taxpayers.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/05/ottawa-to-introduce-legislation-to-create-a-modern-and-transparent-election-system-for-native-reserves/

*Ottawa to introduce legislation to ‘create a modern and transparent election system’ for native reserves*

NP - John Ivison - Dec 5, 2011

The Harper government will introduce new legislation Tuesday aimed at building a stronger election system on native reserves across Canada.

Senior government sources said the biggest change will be to *extend the length of term in office for chiefs and band council members to four years from two, in order to create more stability on reserves.* The source stressed that the new legislation will operate in tandem with the Financial Transparency Act, introduced last month, which requires chiefs and councillors to publish their salaries and expenses. The move is being taken in response to pressure from native organizations such as the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, who have called for reforms that would remove their elections from under the Indian Act system.

Native groups have argued that this system has weaknesses that destabilize First Nations governments. “With the two year term of office, our community research has shown that newly elected chiefs and councils have little time to learn their responsibilities before it’s time for another election,” said the Manitoba chiefs. “If a new chief and council are elected the cycle starts all over again. This political instability does not make First Nations very attractive to long-term investment and economic development.”


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## Strike (5 Dec 2011)

The way I read the previous article about the third party getting the boot from the town...it's like dealing with a village where everyone has dysentery, but the council would rather the government deal with the sickness only, instead of also looking at what is causing the sickness.


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## GAP (5 Dec 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> The way I read the previous article about the third party getting the boot from the town...it's like dealing with a village where everyone has dysentery, but the council would rather the government deal with the sickness only, instead of also looking at what is causing the sickness.



 :+1: The chiefs and councils don't want transparent accountability.....they can't cover up their scams.....


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## jasonf6 (6 Dec 2011)

> The decision last week to appoint a third-party manager angered Spence, who described the move as "very shameful." Spence has said the government has focused too much attention on the band's finances instead of working to solve the housing crisis.



Ummm, the band's finances are THE reason for the housing crisis in my opinion.  

That's it, time for a complete overhaul and investigation into EVERY band's finances, regardless of how much the Liberal Party cries racism.  The above quote should be the final straw.

The band's all across the country always complain that they want to self-govern, self-police and self-manage yet when there is a "crisis" they come running to us.


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## Robert0288 (6 Dec 2011)

Government: Here is 90 million, go self govern and run things for yourself
Band: Sweet, 90 million

*few years later*

Band: Help we need houses, we're living out of tents
Government:  What did you do with the 90 million?
Band: I said we need houses! Why are you oppressing us?  This is proof of the systematic abuses of our people and yet another failure of the federal government.
Government:  What did you think the 90 million was for?  That can build a lot of houses
Band: ...... racists....


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (6 Dec 2011)

You know, democracy can work anywhere.

If you watched the various newscasts, the almost unanimous answer of residents to the question "what happened to the 90 Millions?" was "I don't know". But the tone meant: "I didn't know we got 90 millions".

So here's my 2C worth: Every time the Federal government sends money to a band council, they should also mail a notice to all the resident on reserve that would say: "Hi, we just provided your band council with  XXX $ - here is a copy of the draft or transfer confirmation - Just FYI."

I bet internal questions would start to fly real soon and the band members would not stand for deflections in the council's or chief's answer.


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## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> :+1: The chiefs and councils don't want transparent accountability.....they can't cover up their scams.....


I read this morning they did not allow the third party manager on the reserve.

Fine.

If were to become insolvent and the bank sent the Sheriffs to seize my stuff and I refused them entry - how long do you think it would be before I was face down in the snow with a few of WPS finest counselling me about my behavior? Not long I reckon.

Maybe a forensic audit of the finances are in order - then arrest the theives.

Oh sorry now I'm being "oppressive and racist"

My apologies.  :facepalm:


----------



## a_majoor (6 Dec 2011)

Maybe the short term answer is to tell the bands: "No transparency, no money"

Having the third party manager deliver the cheque and bank account papers (with him/herself as the cosigning authority) would send a strong message, and the idea of informing eveyone on the band as to haow much money is being delivered would also be a great game changer.


----------



## X2012 (6 Dec 2011)

I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the well-run Bands could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.

I think another issue is that a problem years in the making isn't going to be solved in a day. Yeah, there needs to be some band-aid solutions to get people into something safe, but like everyone is saying, there needs to be long-term solutions that actually solve the problem (looking at where the money is going, if funding is adequate/appropriately earmarked, etc.).

There is clearly a need for greater transparency and accountability. And this isn't just important for First Nations communities, I mean there's a town in NS that had the whole town council disbanded and is now getting a forensic audit.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2011)

X2012 said:
			
		

> I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the *well-run Bands * could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.
> 
> I think another issue is that a problem years in the making *isn't going to be solved in a day*. Yeah, there needs to be some band-aid solutions to get people into something safe, but like everyone is saying, there needs to be long-term solutions that actually solve the problem (looking at where the money is going, if funding is adequate/appropriately earmarked, etc.).
> 
> There is clearly a need for greater transparency and accountability. And this isn't just important for First Nations communities, I mean there's a town in NS that had the whole town council disbanded and is now getting a forensic audit.



Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.

94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.


----------



## GAP (6 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Maybe the short term answer is to tell the bands: "No transparency, no money"
> 
> Having the third party manager deliver the cheque and bank account papers (with him/herself as the cosigning authority) would send a strong message, and the idea of informing eveyone on the band as to how much money is being delivered would also be a great game changer.



You think that would work? Strange, it hasn't worked for provincial and federal governments.....oh, they will give you transparency, then feather their own nests through a variety of schemes.....think Quebec and gazebos' for instance....


----------



## Bluebulldog (6 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
> You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.
> 
> 94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.



I couldn't agree more.

CBC radio did a piece on Attiwapiskat just the other day. When the 3rd party manager was mentioned in an interview with one of the residents, the person became irate, and went off on a tangent about how they weren't children, and could handle their own affairs. Not exactly what's been shown however.

When one is under debt management, or bankruptcy, they typically have a lot of their affairs handled by a 3rd party. I fail to see why that isn't applicable in this case.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2011)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> When one is under debt management, or bankruptcy, they typically have a lot of their affairs handled by a 3rd party. I fail to see why that isn't applicable in this case.



Why that is an oppressive and racist attitude!! My oh my!!  

No one says anything because when we "white folk" say something, the "R" word is trotted out by the chiefs and their political stooges - the NDP and Liberals for the most part.


----------



## Strike (6 Dec 2011)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> So here's my 2C worth: Every time the Federal government sends money to a band council, they should also mail a notice to all the resident on reserve that would say: "Hi, we just provided your band council with  XXX $ - here is a copy of the draft or transfer confirmation - Just FYI."



Awesome idea!



			
				X2012 said:
			
		

> I have no idea if this is already happening or what, but I think it would be good if the well-run Bands could provide guidance/assistance/expertise to ones that are having a hard time. There is no reason why the good ideas can't be used for the benefit of everyone, and I imagine that there are some issues that would be quite similar across the board.



Membertou band tried that several years ago without much luck.  It's a shame really, since this is a fairly rich band that makes their income through means that don't involve casinos or the government. (Well, not the government directly.  They've won a few government contracts, but this money certainly wasn't a hand-out.)


----------



## jasonf6 (6 Dec 2011)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> CBC radio did a piece on Attiwapiskat just the other day. When the 3rd party manager was mentioned in an interview with one of the residents, the person became irate, and went off on a tangent about how they weren't children, and could handle their own affairs. Not exactly what's been shown however.



Ya, my next question would have been, "If you can handle your own affairs, where did the $90-million go and why are you asking for help?"  Okay boys, pack it up.  No story here.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (6 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Well run bands? There aren't that many.  Besides, from what I've seen the First Nations IMO are xenophobic - they resist what others suggest. It might be worth a shot but I wouldn't hold my breath.
> You are right.....it will take years to change the attitude  from "you owe us" to "we can do this ourselves thank you" without the need for our "oppressive racist" rule. Education would be a good start.
> 
> 94 million dollars was p!ssed away - no accountability - and the thieves should be jailed.



I don't know if I would call them xenophobic, but there is still a lot of hostilities between different tribes; (e.g) someone from tribe "X" runs into someone from tribe "Y" who in historical times was the enemy, expect a dust-up. So, even if some successful band did try to provide assistance, there is a good chance it would be rejected because they're from a different tribe.

You make a good point about education, it would be interesting to see the educational background of band/tribal councils and how much experience they have in leadership and financial dealings.


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## ballz (6 Dec 2011)

I think education of the general populace would go a lot further than better education of the leaders.

In my opinion, it's educating a generation or two of motivated youths that will turn things around. I saw an episode of Dragons Den where a young native woman's business was selling hand-made, high-quality moccasins. She used this business to employ women on reserves. Charity is never a long-term solution, but once again, opportunity is.

Warning: Armchair Leadership coming up...
If I were a band chief, I would be looking at guided hunting / fishing tours, trapping, creating quality hand-made products that people will want to buy such as a mocassins, gloves, hats, coats, etc... These could be sold off the reserve, and generate income for the people living on the reserve, and allow them to continue their way of life while being self-sustaining. They have a lot to offer people with unique skill-sets in these areas and other areas. There's no way, with some proper leadership and guidance, they couldn't be self-sustaining. They were self-sustaining long before they had any technology, there's no way they can't do it now.

EDIT: Of course, it would take some educated, motivated young entrepreneurs with the will to see that happen because they love their communities. Entrepreneurship, of course, is a form of a leadership in my opinion.

Here's the Dragons Den thing http://www.ammsa.com/publications/windspeaker/entrepreneur-gets-hand-dragons


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## Strike (6 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Warning: Armchair Leadership coming up...
> If I were a band chief, I would be looking at guided hunting / fishing tours, trapping, creating quality hand-made products that people will want to buy such as a mocassins, gloves, hats, coats, etc... These could be sold off the reserve, and generate income for the people living on the reserve, and allow them to continue their way of life while being self-sustaining. They have a lot to offer people with unique skill-sets in these areas and other areas. There's no way, with some proper leadership and guidance, they couldn't be self-sustaining. They were self-sustaining long before they had any technology, there's no way they can't do it now.



Tack on to that a strong branding campaign (I don't know.  Turtle Parka company or some such thing) that emphasizes the quality of the workmanship using local textiles and all parts being made in Canada, and you could have yourself a pretty promising little business.


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## dapaterson (6 Dec 2011)

Or look at Kanewake, just off the island of Montreal.  They've become one of the world's premier sites for online gambling, exploiting the infrastructure they have available.  Islands in the carribean have made significant income from financial services.  Why couldn't Kanesatake offer similar services?

There are many options First Nations, Métis and Innu can examine; no need to limit themselves to moccasins and hunting.


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## foresterab (6 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I think education of the general populace would go a lot further than better education of the leaders.
> 
> In my opinion, it's educating a generation or two of motivated youths that will turn things around. I saw an episode of Dragons Den where a young native woman's business was selling hand-made, high-quality moccasins. She used this business to employ women on reserves. Charity is never a long-term solution, but once again, opportunity is.



I work in the natural resources field and have spent many years in aboriginal communities/reserves.  The best description was dealing with a group of First Nations in northern Alberta.
1st band - Crown owed us everything, we live in shacks, gimme gimme gimme.  To be fair this band had not signed treaty originally but had also turned down several other additional treaty offers from Canada.  Currently spends alot of money on lawyers.

2nd band - multi-million buisness empire based orignally off of on-reserve buisnesses and expanded off reserve.  Very xenophonbic and currently challanging court cases which forced them to accept members that previously lost native rights due to marrying europeans.  But buisnesses are run as buisnesses and band members, while offered jobs, are held to the same accountability as all other employees.

3rd band. - Didn't sign treaty 8 through the treaty commission running late and skipping them.  Administered for years under another First Nation and many fights over who gets what share of the pie...just recently became an independent reserve and signed treaty.  What's important here is that this band was closely related to the first two cases with infrastrurce similar to the first case...but the attitude was different.  Elders and band leadership had realized that the oldest members were dieing out but their own children were not potenially ready or qualified to take over..this is due to a whole mix of social failures, external experiences, and cultural breakdown.  As a result they were looking for grandchildren who had promise...not 20 year olds but grandkids in their 30's who a) worked b) had kids c) were responsible.  These have become the role models for the community as they are showing you can work like a "moonias (white guy)" and have respect for doing a job well on time yet still have kids in the community and speak the language/keep the culture.

Although geography has not blessed the 3rd band with the best location or available resources/infrastruce the attitude difference means that they are taking advantage of opportunities and have greatly expanded their economy.  Their not up to case #2 yet but left case #1 in the dust.  Education is part but attitude is equally important to have small buisnesses succeed.


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## ballz (6 Dec 2011)

foresterab said:
			
		

> Education is part but attitude is equally important to have small buisnesses succeed.



Absolutely... unfortunately we can't provide motivation, commitment, positive attitude, and a host of other qualities, all things that are very important to being a successful entrepreneur, but unfortunately can't be taught... something I've been trying to tell the Faculty of Business Administration for four years :not-again:


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## TN2IC (6 Dec 2011)

jasonf6 said:
			
		

> True enough, maybe operation isn't the word to use.  What would you call it?



COIN...  ;D


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## GAP (6 Dec 2011)

Wait a minute.....whoa.....

We are talking about communities located where? in the forest dummy.......

They are surrounded by trees, bunches and bunches of trees.......

simply use Stackwall Housing.

Cordwood construction (also called "cordwood masonry," "stackwall construction" or "stackwood construction") is a term used for a natural building method in which "cordwood" or short pieces of debarked tree are laid up crosswise with masonry or cob mixtures to build a wall.

Walls are usually constructed such that the pieces of wood are "proud" of (protrude from) the mortar by a small amount (an inch or less). Walls typically range between 12 and 24 inches thick, though in northern Canada, some walls are as much as 36 inches thick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwood_construction

Frequently Asked Questions About Cordwood Masonry (a.k.a Stackwall)
http://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/faqs.htm

They have the materials, they have the labour...most of them are unemployed, now all they need is the will and some effort.....


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## foresterab (6 Dec 2011)

In regards to cordwood housing:

taken from the same page as GAP used.

Although cordwood homes have been tested in -40F locations like Alberta, their thermal efficiency in any climate is below that of a purely cob house of comparable dimensions.[1] In frigid areas it is appropriate to either build a thicker 24-36 inch wall, or two separate super insulated walls. In predominantly wet areas, the outside walls can be plastered, smothering the cordwood ends from air and moisture, but this hides cordwood's attractive log ends. The quantity of labor relative to gaining a specific R value for cordwood is higher when compared to straw bale and stick frame construction. Funds saved in construction may need to be allocated for heating costs or longterm exterior maintenance.[citation needed] An organic, mortar-like cob creates less of an environmental impact because of the use of readily available mud and straw, whereas toxins emitted during the production of Portland cement are very harmful, albeit less tangible in the final product. Like many alternative building styles, the sustainability of cordwood construction is dependent upon materials and construction variables.

Following the Cordwood Conference in 2005 at Merrill, Wisconsin, a document was published to address best practices in cordwood construction and building code compliance.The document entitled Cordwood and the Code: A Building Permit Guide assists cordwood builders get the necessary code permits.[12]


So a couple of issues...more labour needed than for stick frame construction and needs to be expanded thicker than normal to account for the temperatures.  Extreme cold and masonary will be an issue due to heat differences if things are not done right.  It can be done but keep in mind we're dealing with an area of Ontario that has very small diameter trees so convential sawlog/log home local production isn't always possible hence flying in all materials or alternatives like you've proposed.  Not sure what would be needed for foundations on the houses either..

Something to consider from when I was working in N.Ontario.  Got told it's only been in the last 10? 15? years that bands have actually be allowed to harvest wood off their reserves and keep the funds locally instead of having them go to Ottawa.  For the more southern bands nearer to sawmills this has been an economic boom where they've traded raw logs for finished timber/OSB/$$$ but is not always an option.  

From what I remember of Ontario as well there is little provincial policy regarding wood harvest in that area as it is so hard to reforest/small wood/long growning times.  There may be a way to approve the reserve a harvesting permit but my fuzzy memory can't recall how offhand.  That being said a reasonable request for volume for a reasonable use would most likely be entertained especially given all the environmental background and inventory work done for the nearby diamond mines which would address much of the management issues.


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## ballz (6 Dec 2011)

Sounds like the Assembly of First Nations feels the same way as Spence WRT getting caught scamming people... shared with the usual caveats...

Attawapiskat chief says 'enough is enough'
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/12/06/attawapiskat-martin-afn.html?cmp=rss


> The chief of the troubled Attawapiskat First Nation received a standing ovation at an Assembly of First Nations meeting in Ottawa Tuesday, telling her fellow leaders, "We’re not going to take it no more.”



A much longer article at the link.

Oh my f**k just watch the video.... this is ridiculous... these people have con-artist written all over them.

According to one of the journalists asking questions, the "elders" want third-party management back... at which point the Chief and the dude from the band council (I believe) decided no more comments were warranted.


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## a_majoor (6 Dec 2011)

On one of the other threads there was a discussion of a shelter made of prepreg concrete fabric; simply raise the form, wet the concrete paper and wait @ 24 hours for it to harden and cure. For that matter, a Mongolian Yurt is also inexpensive, protble and warm.

No, the problem isn't building materials or what sort of shelter is or is not possible (for $90 million, you could probably build an apartment building or a small suburban neighbourhood), but rather making sure the money is actually managed and spent in an open and effective manner. Maybe instead of giving the money to the band council, the cheques could be delivered to each person individually. Getting @ $8000/ year (according to the breakdown given in an earlier news story) would make each individual much better off than the situation today.


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## Rifleman62 (6 Dec 2011)

This is funny. The dysfunctional Indian chiefs calling in the dysfunctional UN to monitor the waste of a sovereign countries taxpayers dollars.

More BS at link.


*Chiefs ask UN to weigh in on Attawapiskat*

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/chiefs_ask_un_to_weigh_in_on_attawapiskat/1d550dfa

06/12/2011 6:39:33 PM
Andrea Janus
The Assembly of First Nations waded into the political firestorm over Attawapiskat on Tuesday, passing a unanimous resolution to ask the United Nations to monitor the federal government's response to a housing emergency on the reserve.


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## PMedMoe (6 Dec 2011)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> The Assembly of First Nations waded into the political firestorm over Attawapiskat on Tuesday, passing a unanimous resolution to ask the United Nations to monitor the federal government's response to a housing emergency on the reserve.



 :not-again:


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## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2011)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> This is funny. The dysfunctional Indian chiefs calling in the dysfunctional UN to monitor the waste of a sovereign countries taxpayers dollars.
> 
> More BS at link.
> 
> ...



Does this mean we'll get UN observers deployed to the reserve from such progressive nations as ...oh.....North Korea? or Iran? Nigeria? Rwanda? DRC? just to name a few...


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## Swingline1984 (6 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Does this mean we'll get UN observers deployed to the reserve from such progressive nations as ...oh.....North Korea? or Iran? Nigeria? Rwanda? DRC? just to name a few...



They just want someone to shoot at that can't shoot back.


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## Strike (6 Dec 2011)

What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.


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## ballz (6 Dec 2011)

According to their auditted financial statements Theresa Spence makes almost 70k a year
http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Salaries-Honouraria-and-Travel-Expenditures.pdf

I'd say that would buy one hell of a tent in that neighbourhood...


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## Danjanou (6 Dec 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.



Care to guess

http://maps.google.ca/maps?rlz=1T4RNRN_enCA434CA434&q=Attawapiskat&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=qOHeTqqqDYX40gHV8o2cBw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CB8Q_AUoAg


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## Canadian.Trucker (7 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> No, the problem isn't building materials or what sort of shelter is or is not possible (for $90 million, you could probably build an apartment building or a small suburban neighbourhood), but rather making sure the money is actually managed and spent in an open and effective manner. Maybe instead of giving the money to the band council, the cheques could be delivered to each person individually. Getting @ $8000/ year (according to the breakdown given in an earlier news story) would make each individual much better off than the situation today.


For some in the community you might be right, but there is a large drug problem currently in this community to include alcohol among other things.  I fear giving them a surge of $8,000 would just make things worse in the community because it's not enough money to buy a home, but it's more than enough to make yourself not feel any pain for a while.



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> What I would like to see is what types of houses the council and band chief are living in.  Haven't heard anything about that yet.


The council quite often live within the community, but you would throw up in your hat if you found out out that some Chiefs in Northern communities *cough* Pikangikum *cough*, own homes in Thunder Bay worth $1million+.  Not to say this Chief is of the same cloth, but I understand they don't live in meagre places.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> According to their auditted financial statements Theresa Spence makes almost 70k a year
> http://www.attawapiskat.org/content/uploads/2011-Consolidated-Schedule-of-Salaries-Honouraria-and-Travel-Expenditures.pdf
> 
> I'd say that would buy one hell of a tent in that neighbourhood...


If that's all she makes a year I'll eat my boots.  What is a listed salary and what they actually take in are two different things.  Corruption is rampant, because once again there is no accountability.

Overall you guys have brought up some good points, but you have to realize in many of these communities the feeling of "white man law doesn't apply to me" is felt.  They think we are responsible to take care of them and provide them with whatever they want, but they don't want us looking over their shoulder making sure they are being accountable with what they have.  There is still a deep feeling of "you stole our lands" and it permeates everything within their life.  Has the situation become dire and is there assistance needed?  Yes.  But it is not only the fault of the Chief and council of Attawapiskat, it's also the fault of the government for not realizing sooner that accountability was needed and that they should have been following up all along on the expenditure of money.

In the end this is a **** storm politically and it needs to be dealt with in a manner that might hurt and leave a bruise, but in the end we have to move forward instead of allowing this to carry on.  Regardless of the backlash happening from the media/opposition, the government has to see that if we let this go unchecked it's a cycle that is doomed to be repeated.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Dec 2011)

Down here in Manitoba, the First Nation of Lake St Martin has been housed in various hotels in Winnipeg since their land flooded in May. 

The site of the old radar station at Gypsumville was offered, but now concerns were raised about the amount of garter snakes that frequent the area.

PLUS - the chief didn't like who the government contracted to build the houses - the company the chief has a 60% interest in was not selected to build the houses.....

Am I missing something here? Anywhere else we call that a conflict of interest....don't we?


----------



## Danjanou (7 Dec 2011)

Well garter snakes are dangerous Jim :


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## ballz (7 Dec 2011)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> If that's all she makes a year I'll eat my boots.  What is a listed salary and what they actually take in are two different things.  Corruption is rampant, because once again there is no accountability.



I agree, but I can't prove that (hopefully the government will). But I can prove 70k/year alone is a ridiculously high amount for leading a town of <2000 people.

As seen here, she's making way more money than the mayor's of towns with 20,000+ people, about 2.5 times as much as the mayor of Corner Brook, NL (Corner Brook, Newfoundland, has 20,083 people, but its mayor only makes $27,032.)

http://www.yukon-news.com/news/14433/


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## Sigs Pig (7 Dec 2011)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Well garter snakes are dangerous Jim :


Here is another Keystone Kop type story similar to this fiasco at Indian Affairs...

Snipped from the 'net:

*GARTER SNAKES CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS*

Garter Snakes also known as Garden Grass Snakes (Thamnophissirtalis ) can be dangerous. Yes, grass snakes, not rattlesnakes.

Here's why: A couple in Sweetwater, Texas, had a lot of potted plants. During a recent cold spell, the wife was bringing a lot of them indoors to protect them from a possible freeze.

It turned out that a little green garden grass snake was hidden in one of the plants and when it had warmed up, it slithered out and the wife saw it go under the sofa. She let out a very loud scream.

The husband (who was taking a shower) ran out into the living room naked to see what the problem was. She told him there was a snake under the sofa.

He got down on the floor on his hands and knees to look for it. About that time the family dog came and cold-nosed him on the behind. He thought the snake had bitten him, so he screamed and fell over on the floor.

His wife thought he had a heart attack, so she covered him up, told him to lie still and called an ambulance.

The attendants rushed in, wouldn't listen to his protests and loaded him on the stretcher and started carrying him out.

About that time the snake came out from under the sofa and the Emergency Medical Technician saw it and dropped his end of the stretcher. That's when the man broke his leg and why he is still in the hospital.

The wife still had the problem of the snake in the house, so she called on a neighbour man. He volunteered to capture the snake. 

He armed himself with a rolled-up newspaper and began poking under the couch. Soon he decided it was gone and told the woman, who sat down on the sofa in relief.

But while relaxing, her hand dangled in between the cushions, where she felt the snake wriggling around. She screamed and fainted, the snake rushed back under the sofa. The neighbour man, seeing her lying there passed out, tried to use CPR to revive her.

The neighbour?s wife, who had just returned from shopping at the grocery store, saw her husband's mouth on the woman's mouth and slammed her husband in the back of the head with a bag of canned goods, knocking him out and cutting his scalp to a point where it needed stitches.

The noise woke the woman from her dead faint and she saw her neighbour lying on the floor with his wife bending over him, so she assumed that he had been bitten by the snake. She went to the kitchen and got a small bottle of whiskey, and began pouring it down the man's throat.

By now the police had arrived. They saw the unconscious man, smelled the whiskey, and assumed that a drunken fight had occurred. They were about to arrest them all, when the women tried to explain how it all happened over a little green snake.

The police called an ambulance, which took away the neighbour and his sobbing wife.

The little snake again crawled out from under the sofa. One of the policemen drew his gun and fired at it. He missed the snake and hit the leg of the end table. The table fell over and the lamp on it shattered and as the bulb broke it started a fire in the drapes.

The other policeman tried to beat out the flames, and fell through the window into the yard on top of the family dog who, startled, jumped out and raced into the street, where an oncoming car swerved to avoid it and smashed into the parked police car.

Meanwhile, the burning drapes, were seen by the neighbours who called the fire department.

The firemen had started raising the fire truck ladder when they were halfway down the street. The rising ladder tore out the overhead wires and put out the electricity and disconnected the telephones in a ten-square city block area (but they did get the house fire out).

Time passed... Both men were discharged from the hospital, the house was repaired, the dog came home, the police acquired a new car, and all was right with their world.

A while later they were watching TV and the weatherman announced a cold snap for that night. The wife asked her husband if he thought they should bring in their plants for the night. That's when he shot her. 


ME


----------



## Robert0288 (7 Dec 2011)

I never knew snakes were so dangerous.  Thank you for that important lesson.  I will now kill snakes on sight


----------



## GAP (7 Dec 2011)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I never knew snakes were so dangerous.  Thank you for that important lesson.  I will now kill snakes on sight



Don't....only ones under couches.....the rest are neat!!


----------



## camouflauge (8 Dec 2011)

Having been involved with some of the First Nations people, I truly believe it's high time that there was some accountability of the funds that are provided to them. The Chief and Band Council should be audited like every other agency that receives funds from our tax dollars. There's a lot more to this story than what has appeared in the media to date


----------



## a_majoor (8 Dec 2011)

In her own words. No explnation as to where the money really went, though:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/02/attawapiskat-chief-theresa-spence-help-the-first-nations-move-forward/



> *Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence: Help the First Nations move forward*
> National Post  Dec 2, 2011 – 6:18 PM ET
> 
> By Theresa Spence
> ...



Smashing the Status Quo is a fine idea; convert reservations to municipalities or counties under the various provincial laws and regulations of that jurisdiction, close down the Ottawa Bureaucracy and end the transfer payments and let them run the communities just like all the other communities in the provinces they are in.

But the letter is pretty clear the desired solution is more of the handouts and transfers, but less questions asked...


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2011)

camouflage said:
			
		

> Having been involved with some of the First Nations people, I truly believe it's high time that there was some accountability of the funds that are provided to them. The Chief and Band Council should be audited like every other agency that receives funds from our tax dollars. There's a lot more to this story than what has appeared in the media to date



Oh that's so racist and oppressive!! How dare you question the cheifs?    I'm joking of course.

I agree fully. 

The NDP didn't help matters when their interim leader said the solution is to throw   p!ss away more money trying to solve the problem.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Dec 2011)

Government unrolls plan for Attawapiskat

Federal funds will be used to purchase 15 winterized portables to help tackle the housing crisis at a northern Ontario reserve. 

Aboriginal and Northern Development Minster John Duncan penned a letter to the chief of Attawapiskat First Nation Wednesday to relay the government's plan for the remote community. 

In the note, Duncan said a third-party manager will be tasked with purchasing the units, but materials won't be delivered until winter ice roads are opened in mid-January. There are a number of logistical complexities associated with moving resources in and out of the northern area along the coast of James Bay. 

In the short-term, the government says the community can work to retrofit its healing lodge or sports centre, or it can evacuate families currently living in tents and shacks without electricity, heat, or running water. The band says about 62 people are living in these conditions. 

More at link

I'm at work, so I can't watch the video that accompanies this article, but I love the caption: "Keep out... but keep sending cash"


----------



## ReneeClaude (8 Dec 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I'm at work, so I can't watch the video that accompanies this article, but I love the caption: "Keep out... but keep sending cash"



Just watched it. I believe it express what a lot of us are thinking. It's a 3:31 minutes worth watching.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (8 Dec 2011)

FYI, we need to be careful with the information posted and view/opinions expressed since this may be monitored closely since CF assistance is now being heavily reviewed.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2011)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> FYI, we need to be careful with the information posted and view/opinions expressed since this may be monitored closely since CF assistance is now being heavily reviewed.



And not to be disrespectful, but how do you know this?


----------



## MJP (8 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And not to be disrespectful, but how do you know this?



We have always seen a steady stream of journalists browsing and posting on these boards.  Posts from this sites have shown up in the MSM.  Mike has been threatened with lawsuits from those that can't be named (to save a kitten's life).  We should always post under the assumption that our words can be used by the MSM and therefore give careful consideration to what we post.


----------



## Strike (8 Dec 2011)

According to this link:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/12/07/attawapiskat-ndp-military.html

There has been no request made, just suggestions from the opposition.  Reading more into the article, the community itself has not asked for military involvement.  That is a big indicator right there.

That's not to say that someone somewhere isn't drawing up a plan "just in case" but the chances of it being used are likely extremely slim.


----------



## aesop081 (8 Dec 2011)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> FYI, we need to be careful with the information posted and view/opinions expressed since this may be monitored closely since CF assistance is now being heavily reviewed.



We were all talking about Libya before the CF went.......we made out just fine.


----------



## GAP (8 Dec 2011)

While I agree with the sentiments on watching your language....I don't think a lot of opinions on this thread differ much from what the general
public is expressing.  In a lot of cases, some of the chiefs are their own worst enemies.....


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (8 Dec 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> And not to be disrespectful, but how do you know this?


That our opinions may be used somewhere?  I don't.
That the involvement of the CF is potentially being reviewed?  I work with the Canadian Rangers.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We were all talking about Libya before the CF went.......we made out just fine.


Okay.  All I was doing was just saying we should be cautious, that's all.  No big deal.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Dec 2011)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> That the involvement of the CF is potentially being reviewed?  I work with the Canadian Rangers.
> Okay.  All I was doing was just saying we should be cautious, that's all.  No big deal.



I should have been clearer in my intent. My apologies.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2011)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> That our opinions may be used somewhere?  I don't.
> That the involvement of the CF is potentially being reviewed?  I work with the Canadian Rangers.
> Okay.  All I was doing was just saying we should be cautious, that's all.  No big deal.



Thanks for your concern.

We've been through these situations before.

The board is composed of, mostly, intelligent adults.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Dec 2011)

I'm so sick and tired about hearing about the plight of First Nations in Canada.

Everyone laughs, it's like a big joke. We're firing off millions of dollars at First nations and it goes up in smoke. They ask for more money, SOMEONE has the inkling to ask where the last batch of money went. They get upset start throwing around the usual accusations of "the man" trying to muddle in their affairs, then ask when they are getting more money.

We're a month away from 2012, we need to start acting like it's 2012AD and not 1220AD (ie clueless).
Why do we even waste time with this?
Wheres the money? You don't want to tell us? Okay you're not getting another penny-problem solved.

The CF has much better things to do than get involved with this stuff. There are people in the world that not only want our help but need it. People that haven't put themselves in the position they're in.
Again the big joke is that the chiefs have million dollar houses and 90% of the community lives in shacks- no one seems inclined to do anything about it let alone mention it.   

If you want to use the CF for anything send out a few battalions to search for illegal weapons, confiscate them and remove the capability for armed stand offs with police on Canadian soil.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2011)

Just to be clear, as far as I can tell, the only ones that have asked specifically for the CF to intervene are the NDP.

No one else, including First Nations representatives have asked for us.


The local MP, Charlie Angus (NDP) has had seven full years as the representative for this riding, to do something or watch out for these constituents.

He waits til now to start mewing about it and trying blame the Feds?

 Pffftt.


----------



## Journeyman (8 Dec 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> ...that the chiefs have million dollar houses and 90% of the community lives in shacks...


Maybe that 90% should 'Occupy the Reserves' and live in tents to protest the inequality.


----------



## CountDC (9 Dec 2011)

Interesting look through the Financial reports, specifically the Consolidated Schedule of Salaries. 

Keep in mind that in Dec 2010 the population of the tribe was listed as over 2800 but only 1929 actually lived on the reserve.    The report reflect Elected officials at 21 - Chief, Deputy Chief and 19 Councillors.  That is approx 1 councillor for every 100 reserve members.  Wages range from $22k to a high of $73k for full year.  As this was apparently a transitiion year hopefully the number of councillors is actually around half, 10, but even then it gives 1 for every 200 population.  Toss in unelected officials - Band Manager ($74.8k), Tech Svcs($87.3k), Day Care Mgr($45.2), Soc Serv Mgr($65.8k). One of my fav entries is the Acting Band Mgr for 2 months Salary and Honouraria of $12.3k and travel expenses of $68.4k.  For 2 months he cost almost as much as the regular guy cost them for 12 months who had $8.8 in travel.

Can't forget the Education Authority

12 Members (2 of them are also listed as councillors so perhaps it is actually 10 members?) - $113.5k and 2 Administration - $43.4k and $58k.  This actually seems to be a resonable dollar figure but do they really need 12 members?  Seems to me with the population they could get by with a 3 or 5 member Authority and save about $50k.

Going off the Salaries schedule the Elected and Unelected Officials totaled $846.5 k added to the Education and Admin this is $1,061,400 in wages to run a community of 1929.  

Now the Consolidated Financial Statement shows Wages and Employee Benefits of over $11 million and Admin of $3.3 million for 2011 (Admin dropped by approx a mil but w&e went up approx a mil from 2010 so most likely an accounting shuffle).


----------



## a_majoor (10 Dec 2011)

Good find! Now where is the rest of the money?


----------



## ballz (10 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Good find! Now where is the rest of the money?



http://www.attawapiskat.org/financial-statements/

It's all there somewhere. The problem is you would actually have to look at their books to see exactly how the various expenditures came to be. I mean, sure, Theresa Spence made 70k a year but how much did she write off as an expense under various things that really wasn't justified as an administration expense ($3,290,047 for FY 10/11) or as a part of "program delivery" ($12,229,769 for FY 10/11) that really benefited her instead?  If you dug up the books you might find receipts for things not even related that are being written down as an administration expense.

An auditor's job isn't to justify every expense, it's to say they are accurately reported. The person who's job it is to make sure these expenses are legit is the co-manager, who's salary is paid by the band and who is currently in a relationship with the chief, Theresa Spence.


----------



## a_majoor (11 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> The person who's job it is to make sure these expenses are legit is the co-manager, who's salary is paid by the band and who is currently in a relationship with the chief, Theresa Spence.



No conflict of interest there...


----------



## Scott (11 Dec 2011)

Posted with the usual caveats:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/41262-new-chief-valley-first-nation-wants-members-set-her-wage



> New chief of Valley First Nation wants members to set her wage
> 
> December 10, 2011 - 4:37am BY GORDON DELANEY VALLEY BUREAU
> 
> ...


----------



## Bass ackwards (11 Dec 2011)

From the article posted by Scott:

"Peterson had 63 votes to Toney’s 26. There were 199 eligible voters among the 300 band members."

89 votes from 199 eligible voters. Wow.


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Dec 2011)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> From the article posted by Scott:
> 
> "Peterson had 63 votes to Toney’s 26. There were 199 eligible voters among the 300 band members."
> 
> 89 votes from 199 eligible voters. Wow.




Yeah, that's terrible. Aboriginals vote for their local governments with about the same enthusiasm as people in Halifax, Winnipeg and Vancouver - 44.7% voter turnout.


----------



## Bass ackwards (11 Dec 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's terrible. Aboriginals vote for their local governments with about the same enthusiasm as people in Halifax, Winnipeg and Vancouver - 44.7% voter turnout.



True enough. What gets me is that the folks in Halifax, Winnipeg and Vancouver -regardless of _who_ gets elected- still have solid walls, roofs, heating, running water, etc etc... They sure as hell never have to worry about the R factor of a _tarp_.

A couple of months ago, an aboriginal co-worker of mine (Cree) was telling me about young people on the reserves who wanted schooling but were denied the opportunity because they were not in the local Chief's good graces. 
I pointed out that if Joe Anglosaxon like me said anything about that, I'd be shouted down as a racist, and I asked why those young people weren't hollering about it.
His response:
"Well...I guess they're too beaten down to do anything about it." 

How do you deal with something like that ?
Without being imperialistic, paternalistic, or any of the other bad "istics"...


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> No conflict of interest there...



Of course not! How dare you place your white man's values on the First Nations!!! :rage:


----------



## ballz (11 Dec 2011)

CBC won't show this... I'm even more surprised CTV did...

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111130/attawapiskat-help-arriving-111130/

EDIT: A very revealing video of the corruption at the link.


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> CBC won't show this... I'm even more surprised CTV did...
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111130/attawapiskat-help-arriving-111130/
> 
> EDIT: A very revealing video of the corruption at the link.



Good.....well done CTV - 

NDP won't listen to this....


----------



## ballz (11 Dec 2011)

New zamboni bought with the education fund, undocumented salaries, $8400 chartered plane to Toronto Island (wasn't it the NDP kicking up the huge fuss about needless flying in the recent months?).

Like I said before, this woman has con-artist written all over her.

And the reporter indicated that the people on the reserve are more than happy to have her held accountable by a third-party.


----------



## a_majoor (11 Dec 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> CBC won't show this... I'm even more surprised CTV did...
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111130/attawapiskat-help-arriving-111130/
> 
> EDIT: A very revealing video of the corruption at the link.



And on Sun News: http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/12/20111211-131007.html


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Dec 2011)

An *excellent* opinion pice for Liberal magnate Gordon Gibson, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/the-greatest-moral-challenge-in-canadian-politics/article2266343/


> The greatest moral challenge in Canadian politics
> 
> GORDON GIBSON
> 
> ...




Now I don't know for sure that the *Indian* problem is THE greatest moral challenge facing government but it is a HUGE challenge and it has a major moral component.

One key factor: our Supreme Court regularly finds that the _honour of the crown_ has been besmirched by successive governments in their dealing, on our behalf, with Canadian *Indians*. The _honour of the crown_ is legalize for a *promise* that we - all Canadians living a dead - made and which we fail, again and again and again to keep. The _Supremes_ tell us that all we _ordinary_ Canadians living in Victoria, Regina, Toronto and St John's are liars and cheats - or, at least, that the people we elect lie and cheat with our *active* support and approval.

I don't know what the _right_ answer is but it seems to me that we must most *Indians* out of the traps of reserves and into the 21st century mainstream. I know that some *Indians* will protest and say that their land is sacred and so on and so forth. In my personal opinion that is rubbish - it is made up history and traditions created on the fly to justify the status quo.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Dec 2011)

The _Globe and Mail_ published its list of _"Canada's top 10 most momerable quotes of 2011"_. Number 1 is from Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence.







She said: _“We must go together and tell the government: This is our land, this is our life. We need to say enough is enough.” _

Maybe the government needs to answer: _"You're right, it is your land, but it's our money and we need to say enough is enough, too. It's your land but we don't need to pay you to live on it. We are prepared to invest millions, even billions of dollars to help aboriginal Canadians break the welfare cycle and the stranglehold of the reserve system. People of Attawapiskat: move to places with jobs and a future - we'll help you; move to a place where your kids can get good educations - we'll help you; break free! - we'll help you. Chief Spence: you're cut off - get a real job."
_


----------



## a_majoor (12 Dec 2011)

:goodpost:

As a secondary comment, someone noted upthread that the people dwelling in cities usually don't have to consider the R value of a tarp. This is because most buildings are owned by either the occupants or the landlords, who have a vital interest in ensuring the accomodation is livable and maintains its economic value. The "housing" and land in most reservations is not owned by the occupants, and the responsibility of ownership is not practiced by the band councils either (acting as landlords).

This can actually be seen in a smaller scale in most cities by looking at subsidized or city owned housing in your city; compare the standards of the dwellings and grounds to the private residences and apartment units nearby.

If we can't or won't help the people on the reservations evacuate as per Edward's post, then we can at lest change the various laws and acts to allow private ownership of property on the reservations. Even if we grant the current corrupt system will allow people to game the new system and achieve majority ownership of the land, they will now have positive incentives to actually provide decent accomodations if only to protect and enhance the value of their property.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Dec 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> An *excellent* opinion pice for Liberal magnate Gordon Gibson, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/the-greatest-moral-challenge-in-canadian-politics/article2266343/
> 
> ...




And yet more, this time reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_ by the same Gordon Gibson:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Treat+natives+individuals/5846790/story.html


> Treat natives as individuals
> 
> By Gordon Gibson, The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> ...




Once again, I don't know the answer, but Gibson is making more sense than anyone else I am reading/hearing.


----------



## foresterab (12 Dec 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> If we can't or won't help the people on the reservations evacuate as per Edward's post, then we can at lest change the various laws and acts to allow private ownership of property on the reservations. Even if we grant the current corrupt system will allow people to game the new system and achieve majority ownership of the land, they will now have positive incentives to actually provide decent accomodations if only to protect and enhance the value of their property.



The issue as I understand it is that under  the Indian Act individuals can not own land as it is held in trust to the reserve.  There is however a very clumbersome and intensive workaround that does allow for the issuance of long term leases to band members.

A long term lease provides sufficent collateral that an individual can then apply for and recieve a convential mortgage for their home which does a couple of things:
1) provides a basis for credit rating and long term credit risk
2) provides a sense of personal ownership in the dwelling
3) removes the power of the chief in council to re-allocate the home to someone else.
4) forces construction to a standard required to meet mortgage needs

It is my understanding that the 6 nations of the Ottawa Valley have used this process to great success and have really kick-started their economy as a result.  Other communities are running into issues with the paperwork or have a lack of interest in the process due to effective local leadership.  But the simple fact that credit history is a major barrier to employement and financing from non-government sources can be changed through steps like this.

Think about it..you live in an area with little to no employment, the only source of funds are regular payments from the crown, and banking facilities are remote.  With internet these days the banking situation is largely resolved but being able to show that you are a productive, responsible economic risk is often enough to allow for the ambitious to take the next step...leverage the house against a new bulldozer for road construction contracts or even basic tools to fix the neighbors house+ trade school.  The only issue I've heard is that many have regular income but don't have the down payment to start the process of buying a new home so the band was loaning, in a legal formal agreement, the monies for the down payment while the member was on the hook for any mortgage arrangements.

Maybe this is a possible long term partial fix to creating an easier way of self control through homes if the documentation and regulations were clearer and easier to work through.

Anywho..my  :2c:


----------



## GR66 (12 Dec 2011)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> From the article posted by Scott:
> 
> "Peterson had 63 votes to Toney’s 26. There were 199 eligible voters among the 300 band members."
> 
> 89 votes from 199 eligible voters. Wow.



To be fair we don't knot that 89 votes is the total number cast by the band members.  We only know that those two candidates received 63 and 26 votes respectively.  There may have been other candidates that received fewer votes and were not mentioned since that information wasn't central to the article.


----------



## Bass ackwards (12 Dec 2011)

GR66 said:
			
		

> To be fair we don't knot that 89 votes is the total number cast by the band members.  We only know that those two candidates received 63 and 26 votes respectively.  There may have been other candidates that received fewer votes and were not mentioned since that information wasn't central to the article.



Good point. And one that I did not even think about.
Thanks.


----------



## PMedMoe (13 Dec 2011)

Some Attawapiskat residents at odds with chief

Some residents of Attawapiskat First Nations support the government's plan to put the reserve under third-party management, a move strongly opposed by the chief and band council.

"I think it would be a good thing. We need to clean up our financial crisis here in Attawapiskat because it's been like this too long now," Greg Shisheesh, a former deputy chief of the reserve, told CBC News in a phone interview.

"I was happy to hear the federal government was stepping in to clean the mess up."

Shisheesh, who said he has lived on the reserve all his life, said he believes a forensic audit should be conducted on a number of organizations on the reserve, including the band office and economic development office.

"If our leaders have nothing to hide, by all means do it."

More at link

Exactly.  If there's nothing to hide, why is Chief Spence so against third-party management?


----------



## OldSolduer (13 Dec 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Some Attawapiskat residents at odds with chief
> 
> Some residents of Attawapiskat First Nations support the government's plan to put the reserve under third-party management, a move strongly opposed by the chief and band council.
> 
> ...



Counterpoint (Devils advocate)  or what might be said by his opposition - Its obvious that Shisheesh is part of the problem. He's jealous because he no longer has access to the band funds. AND Shisheesh is on the side of the oppressive white Harper government.

Just sayin.... >


----------



## a_majoor (15 Dec 2011)

While the article is written from the perspective of the poor urban youth of the United States, I think it also applies to the problems of our own poor youth (native and urban). If anyone can "crack the code" and teach people new skils and habits (change the culture) then the problem will be reduced to more manageable proportions:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/if-i-were-a-poor-black-kid/249996/



> *If I Were a Poor Black Kid*
> DEC 14 2011, 10:58 AM ET 688
> 
> Gene Marks has been taking some entirely justified twitting for outlining what he'd do if he were a poor black kid. Like most of the people making fun of him, I assume that if I had been a poor black kid, I would have made the same choices that poor black kids make in those circumstances.  I was as easily led as any other sixteen year old--I wanted to be liked, and I preferred hanging out with my friends to doing schoolwork.  The main differences, as I see them, are that I grew up knowing a lot of people who had achieved enjoyable and remunerative careers via college degrees; and the peer group available to me at the Riverdale Country School all thought that it was really, really important to graduate high school and get into a good college.  I was willing to work much harder to impress my friends than for a nebulous shot at a future job that was, from my perspective, a half a lifetime away.
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (15 Dec 2011)

The latest news courtesy of SUN NEWS TV is that Chief Spence is seeking an injunction against the appointment of a  third-party manager.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Dec 2011)

OK, maybe I'm just not understanding some of the nuance here, but given:
A) Additional funds are tied to the appointment of a third-party manager;
B) Chief Spence is seeking an injunction against the appointment of a  third-party manager;

Therefore, no additional funds are forthcoming.

Yet, C) the people of Attawapiskat, being aware of this, are not rising up to punt Chief Spence. This suggests that they are not as destitute, in their minds, as we believe (or conventional wisdom would have us to believe).

You'll forgive me if I continue not losing any sleep over this.
Have a nice winter; see you in the spring.




I can't believe spell-check doesn't recognize "Attawapiskat."     

Yes kids, that button in the bottom right corner checks for your typos before you hit <send>.  It's FREE!    :nod:


----------



## vonGarvin (17 Dec 2011)

Interesting article from the Frasier Institute:

Here's a sample, shared in accordance with the fair use laws:



> What’s additionally curious is where the money is spent. According to Attawapiskat’s latest budget documents, $11.2 million went to salaries, wages and employee benefits. That equates to $7,249 per reserve resident on just compensation-related expenditures.
> In contrast, according to the latest available estimates from Atikokan, that town spends just under $3-million on salaries and benefits, or $904 per person.



Complete article here


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Dec 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Interesting article from the Frasier Institute:
> 
> Here's a sample, shared in accordance with the fair use laws:
> 
> Complete article here




That ought to be required reading on Parliament Hill ... especially in the wholly uncritical press gallery.


----------



## a_majoor (19 Dec 2011)

The nuclear option:

http://jnarvey.com/2011/12/06/disband-the-first-nations-reserves-start-with-attawapiskat/



> *Disband the First Nations Reserves. Start with Attawapiskat*
> 
> Published by jnarvey at 9:36 pm under Canada,downtown eastside,politics,united nations,Vancouver
> 
> ...


----------



## foresterab (19 Dec 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Interesting article from the Frasier Institute:
> 
> Here's a sample, shared in accordance with the fair use laws:
> 
> Complete article here



What's interesting is that they used Atikoken as the counter point to the situation in Attawapiskat.  From my memories of working in and around Atikoken it's probably the most intergrated community I've ever been in from a racial point of view...mixed native/european/metis marrigies are extremly common and race by and large is a non-issue.  Although it does have good road access there is limited employment with many youth eventually ending up in Thunder Bay to chase oportunities...

For comparison's sake 10 years ago when getting out of school a buddy bought a truck and put the downpayment on a $76,000 house to work there...and the truck was the bigger portion of the loan. when the time came to sell due to a transfer he ended up walking away from the house because there was no buyers...that's a depressed economy.


----------



## vonGarvin (19 Dec 2011)

To be fair to Attawapiskat and Atikoken, the comparisions are superficial; however, when the wages and benefits (etc) of Attawapiskat are more than the entire operating budget of an entire community, one can only go "Hmmmm....."


----------



## Tow Tripod (19 Dec 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Act

We and the Native People of Canada signed this little agreement in 1867. We will never "close" Native Reserves in this country. Do the Chiefs have to be responsible to their own people? Absolutely! 

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-5/

What I can see in the future is an endless series of negotiations on replacing the Indian Act with another document that could in fact cost taxpayers even more.

My final point would be that we have spent billions of dollars on Afghanistan for example at a cost of 158 Canadian soldiers with poor to minimal results. We have also spent billions on Aboriginal Affairs with the same overall result. 

Their has to be a solution to this problem because I do not wish too see Canadian children playing near their own fecal matter on the CBC again.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Dec 2011)

What provokes my skepticism is the notion that in the internet age, the young people are interested in living out their lives in the remote communities which have no particular employment drivers except governance.  I find it hard to believe many of those people would not prefer to suffer the agonies of city living.


----------



## Strike (19 Dec 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> My final point would be that we have spent billions of dollars on Afghanistan for example at a cost of 158 Canadian soldiers with poor to minimal results.



what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?   ???


----------



## vonGarvin (19 Dec 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> My final point would be that we have spent billions of dollars on Afghanistan for example at a cost of 158 Canadian soldiers with poor to minimal results. We have also spent billions on Aboriginal Affairs with the same overall result.


----------



## Tow Tripod (19 Dec 2011)

Techno,
It's an opinion. Not an argument! I'm not arguing with anybody but as a Canadian I want a viable solution to what seems like a hopeless situation. Thank you for time.


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## Tow Tripod (19 Dec 2011)

Strike,
I was in China last year. What type of tea would you like? All I'm saying is that we should come up with some type solution to this domestic problem and attempt to sort our own house out first. 

Like Techno, Thank you for your time.


----------



## GAP (19 Dec 2011)

I've always been under the impression that we have been in a long term (generational) plan to educate the new generation to allow that generation to solve the dilemma the reserves are in. There's probably been great leaps, but the converse is that educated natives tend to see the possibilities outside the reserves and move on

 :2c:


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## OldSolduer (20 Dec 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Strike,
> I was in China last year. What type of tea would you like? All I'm saying is that we should come up with some type solution to this domestic problem and attempt to sort our own house out first.
> 
> Like Techno, Thank you for your time.



And any solution we (the "white" community) will offer will be met with derision and name calling by the current crop of aborginal leaders.


----------



## Strike (20 Dec 2011)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> All I'm saying is that we should come up with some type solution to this domestic problem and attempt to sort our own house out first.



Unfortunately we live in a global community where we are expected to help out other nations when asked and/or required, so trying to sort out our own problems before even considering going somewhere else is not an option.  Imagine if we had that attitude during earthquakes in Turkey or Haiti or after hurricanes down south.


----------



## a_majoor (20 Dec 2011)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but so long as *we* alow the "Indian Industry" to exist and provide the perverse incentive of billions of dollars for nothing in particular to continue to flow, the people who benefit the most will do everything possible (media, cries of racism, occupations, court battles, etc.) to continue to get their hands on our money. (In a similar context, Jerry Pournelle points out there will be poor and unemployed people so long as we pay them to be poor and unemployed, and so long as we pay people to "take care of" poor and unemployed people. In fact, the more we spend "hiring" people to be poor, the more people will apply for the job.)

Tough love will have to come in stages.

Stage one is to account for the money we provide, using third party managers if necessary. IF there is a refusal to be accountable, then we should simply shut off the money. We are halfway there now.

Stage two is to decouple moneies to the native people from the band council. $8,000+/year may not buy a house, but it sure beats having to suckhole to the current crop of reservation leaders in order to get a home or education, or even a few scraps from the table. Frankly, the late and unlamented Kim Jong Il raised that sort of "leadership" to an art form; hardly the sort of example we want to emulate.

Stage three is to provide easy means to evacutate from the reservations, so native people are not trapped in places with no prospects. Functioning reservations will keep their people, but non functional ones should see an exodus (along with money from the "per head" payments).

Stage four is to scrap as much of the laws and regulations as possible that maintain segregation between Canadians based on ethnic background; Apartheid wasn't pretty in ancient Sparta nor 20th century South Africa. Everyone should have the opportunity to own and have unfettered use of their own property as a minimum. If that means annulling ancient treaties, then so be it, we no longer need help against New France or the manifest destiny crowd of the James Madison Administration, and the railway right of ways have been in place for more than a century. Time to move into the 21rst century.

The status quo is unsustainable and no amount of new money will make things better; time to change tracks and go in a different direction.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Dec 2011)

Give 'em some "Rae days" Bobby, because paying me and my co-workers overtime to work our normal shifts to save money made about as much sense as some of the funding schemes in this thread.



  http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/19/rae-ignores-history-of-neglect

Great Canadian explorer Bob Rae journeys up to the deep north of Ontario over the weekend and discovers a Native community called Attawapiskat living in squalor on the shores of a mammoth bay named James.
"This is a Third World," he cries, as if his eyes are the first to bear witness. "And it is right here. Right here at home."

We are uncertain if he also cried, "Eureka!"
But perhaps he did.
We remind him, therefore, that this should not have been a Jacques Cartier moment.

We remind him, in fact, that he was premier of Ontario at the time former Attawapiskat chief Ignace Gull appeared before a royal commission to talk about appalling living conditions on his northern Cree reserve -- about scores being crammed into poorly-heated huts, about lack of water, about abuse both sexual and physical, about rampant alcoholism, and about how the reserve's youth were killing themselves huffing gasoline fumes.

And it was "right there," right in his own backyard, 20 years ago when he was not only the NDP premier of Ontario but the provincial overlord of Attawapiskat's provincial money.
So spare us if his cries over the weekend don't move us.

Bob Rae did nothing 20 years ago when he could have, and should have.
He ignored Ignace Gull's pleas.
And he is doing nothing now but lay blame at other doorsteps, namely the Harper government's, even though it was largely a Liberal government that did nothing for over the last two decades to alleviate the hell that remains the frozen septic tank of Attawapiskat.

No, to Bob Rae, now interim leader of the Liberal party that failed Attawapiskat so miserably, it is all Stephen Harper's fault.
It was one quote in particular from Rae over the weekend, however, that left us cold.
"We can't go on like this for the next decade or the next 20 years without some real improvements," he said about Attawapiskat.

Why not? He let it go 20 years ago. The Chretien Liberals let it go for 20 years.
If Rae wants to play the blame game, he can start with himself, and then move up the line.

Just don't feign ignorance or innocence.


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## Rifleman62 (20 Dec 2011)

> I've always been under the impression that we have been in a long term (generational) plan to educate the new generation to allow that generation to solve the dilemma the reserves are in. There's probably been great leaps, but the converse is that educated natives tend to see the possibilities outside the reserves and move on



Didn't various organizations including churches attempt to educate Indian children in order that they could have the same opportunities as every other child? What happened? Every one of them was abused, and because of that abuse they lost the ability to be parents to the children they conceived. Or should that be the children they reproduced. Children that grew up with the same values and inabilities.

I believe Indians get all their education for free. They can go to university forever if they want.

There are exceptions, individuals and Bands. The West Kelowna and Osoyoos, BC are very, very well off. 

What do Canadian taxpayers and the Indians themselves get for at least 8 billion, plus, plus, plus from various sources? The Bands do not operate ships, tanks or planes.


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## dapaterson (20 Dec 2011)

Thucydides :  Clay Chirky put it best:

Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Dec 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Thucydides :  Clay Chirky put it best:
> 
> Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution.



That sums up the whole problem.


This reminds me of the Jews during WW2 in a way.

Watching documentaries and movies I always wondered how Jews were exterminated by the thousands and often didn't seem to put up a fight. Sure I saw a movie with that douchebag from friends about jewish resistance fighters in some slum area but for the most part it always seemed like the Jews would put up no resistance and just go along with being exterminated.  


It seems like this is sort of the case with the reserves and band council and money. Not that anyone is being exterminated (though death is caused indirectly) but it's pretty apparent to EVERYONE what is going on.  Why aren't the average reserve joe blow's standing up and saying what the f$%* is going on, where is the money?  Natives in my experience pride themselves on being warriors, a warrior nation, warrior spirit etc..  Threaten to arm border guards and they're going to take up arms, block roads, make scary faces and use violence.  So where are these same warriors. Is not the average native American on one of these reserves willing to stand up for themselves?  Why do they seem like passive sheep allowing themselves to be starved to death while their shepherds are rolling around in $50'000 SUVs living in mansions?


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## GAP (20 Dec 2011)

> Why aren't the average reserve joe blow's standing up and saying what the f$%* is going on, where is the money?



Because they are literally waiting their turn. Most reserves are divided into familial factions. When "your" chief gets elected, it's your faction's turn at the trough....


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## dapaterson (20 Dec 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> Because they are literally waiting their turn. Most reserves are divided into familial factions. When "your" chief gets elected, it's your faction's turn at the trough....



... which is the case in many political systems.  You used to be able to tell which way an area had voted in Nova Scotia by the quality of the roads.  New ashphalt = voted for the government.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Dec 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ... which is the case in many political systems.  You used to be able to tell which way an area had voted in Nova Scotia by the quality of the roads.  New ashphalt = voted for the government.



Now they get a new regiment!!


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## Edward Campbell (20 Dec 2011)

Now a senior UN official, an American professor from New Mexico named James Anaya weighs in, according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawas-handling-of-attawapiskat-crisis-draws-un-rebuke/article2278146/


> Ottawa’s handling of Attawapiskat crisis draws UN rebuke
> 
> KIM MACKRAEL
> 
> ...




As stated, _"Mr. Anaya noted that aboriginal communities face higher rates of poverty, and poorer health, education and employment outcomes ..."_ which is, by and large, true. But the article also states that _"[My Anaya] said he has received reports indicating that first nations communities are systematically under-funded in Canada_ [and] _it does not appear that the government is responding adequately to requests for assistance"_ which is very highly debatable.

Despite my somewhat jaded views on government communications, I am glad to see the Minister's office is fighting back. Now is the time for some _political *persuasion*_; Canadians - to hell with the UN and the world - have to *know* how much of their money is being spent and how it is being used, or abused.

I repeat: I do not know the right answers, but ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


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## a_majoor (20 Dec 2011)

More about dealing with poverty. It is cultural rather than financial:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/286242/when-16-trillion-not-enough-david-french



> *When Is $16 Trillion Not Enough?*
> December 19, 2011 5:03 P.M.
> By David French
> 
> ...


----------



## ballz (20 Dec 2011)

I am glad this issue came up the way it did when the Conservatives have a majority. This may be the turning point where Canadians come down hard and stop getting scammed.

I think PM Harper's approach, demanding more accountability and insisting it is required if there are ever to be any improvements, not to mention the clearly corrupt Theresa Spence and friends being the "face" of the problem, is resonating well with Canadians. I *hope* it doesn't just go away, I *hope* it's finally dealt with.


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## Strike (20 Dec 2011)

I find it interesting that no other 'Individual' bands have come out in defence of Attawapiskat and been crying foul.  Perhaps because they:
A) don't want to the attention brought to their own band leadership, or
B) they agree with the government's decision to include an independent third party but, due to cultural sensitivities, can't vocalize this.


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## George Wallace (21 Dec 2011)

Look at this.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act 




> * Sympatico News*
> 
> *UN envoy criticizes government over Attawapiskat
> *
> ...


LINK 





Perhaps the UN should take over the financial caregiving of the people in Attawapiskat and then they can revisit their comments.


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## Edward Campbell (21 Dec 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Look at this.
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act
> 
> ...




See  my comments on the same story from about 18 hours ago.


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## ballz (22 Dec 2011)

Something interesting about these First Nations democracies... it appears there's a chance that not everyone can vote...

To satisfy my own curiosity, I dug up the numbers when the Qalipu Mi'kmaq band was being officially formed (originally 10,000 members... then when they were going to get status, 24,000 applications... anyway...), and I was reading about the First Founding members / Second Founding members controversy that was going on when this band was being formed. I couldn't recall why being on the First Founding members list was such a big deal at the time...

Anywho, here it is http://www.thewesternstar.com/Sports/Football/2009-11-27/article-1480272/Application-numbers-high-Qalipu-Mikmaq-First-Nation-Band-will-be-reality%3A-Brendan-Sheppard/1



> The second phase
> Once the first founding members list is completed early next week, the second phase will begin immediately for the second founding members list.
> 
> Members on that list will not be able to vote and enjoy some of the privileges members of the first founding members will have access to at first, however, there are some programs being delivered they will be entitled to.



I don't know if that means they can't vote in the short-term only, or what the whole deal is... but it appears some of these agreements with the federal government might leave some members as second-class Status Indians... That would help explain why the cronies have been getting away with the corruption for so long. And much like you would expect, those that were selected as "first founding members" were selected on a "who you know" criteria when it comes to this Qalipu example.


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## PuckChaser (24 Dec 2011)

Here's an interesting article from C-News:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2011/12/23/19164496.html



> *First Nations should help ailing reserves: Akwesasne chief*
> By Greg Peerenboom, QMI Agency
> 
> Akwesasne Grand Chief Mike Mitchell says it’s time for more prosperous First Nations to step up, and not let struggling bands rely on solely on the federal government.
> ...



What a great idea, First Nations groups helping each other, pooling the Federal money and distributing it where it is most needed.


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## GAP (24 Dec 2011)

hmmmmm......that just makes it one big, long line, and guess who's in the front.....the chiefs' and friends. Right now we have 100 shorter lines, and even there, guess who's in the front.....the chiefs' and friends .........................


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## Jarnhamar (25 Dec 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> hmmmmm......that just makes it one big, long line, and guess who's in the front.....the chiefs' and friends. Right now we have 100 shorter lines, and even there, guess who's in the front.....the chiefs' and friends .........................



I guess troops don't 'eat first' up there


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## GAP (5 Jan 2012)

This is not new....in the same vein.....your friend and mentor.....P.E.T.............................

Trudeau's words about aboriginals resonate
 BY ROBERT HEAD, CALGARY HERALD JANUARY 3, 2012
Article Link

As one who has had the good fortune of visiting the majority of First Nations Indian Reserves in Canada and also having spent some time on the Navajo Nation in Window Rock, Ariz., while doing a year-long study into policing, I find the recent media frenzy concerning the Attawapiskat housing situation overblown and rather frustrating.

To begin, please bear with me while I record an excerpt from a speech given by a prominent Canadian, to an assembly of aboriginal people many years ago:

"So this year we came up with a proposal. It's a policy paper on the Indian problem. It proposes a set of solutions. It doesn't impose them on anybody. It proposes them - not only to the Indians, but to all Canadians - not only to their federal representatives, but to the provincial representatives, too, and it says we're at the crossroads. We can go on treating the Indians as having a special status. We can go on adding bricks of discrimination around the ghetto in which they live and at the same time perhaps helping them preserve certain cultural traits and certain ancestral rights. Or we can say you're at a crossroad - the time is now to decide whether the Indians will be a race apart in Canada or whether it will be Canadians of full status."

Those words were spoken back on Aug. 8, 1969, by then-prime minister Pierre Trudeau at the Aboriginal and Treaty Rights meeting in Vancouver.

Trudeau continued: "And this is a difficult choice. It must be a very agonizing choice to the Indian peoples themselves because, on the one hand, they realize that if they come into the society as total citizens, they will be equal under the law, but they risk losing certain of their traditions, certain aspect of a culture and perhaps even certain of their basic rights, and this is a very difficult choice for them to make and I don't think we want to try to force the pace on them any more than we can force it on the rest of Canadians. (But) here again is a choice which is, in our minds, whether outside, a group of Canadians with (whom) we have treaties, a group of Canadians who have ...many of them claim, aboriginal rights or whether we will say we'll forget the past and begin today and this is a tremendously difficult choice because, if - well one of the things the Indian bands often refer to are their aboriginal rights," Trudeau said.

"We will recognize treaty rights," continued Trudeau, those 42 years ago. "We will recognize forms of contract which have been made with the Indian people by the Crown and we will try to bring justice in that area and this will mean that perhaps the treaties shouldn't go on forever. It's inconceivable, I think, that in a given society one section of the society have a treaty with the other section of the society. We must be all equal under the laws and we must not sign treaties among ourselves. And many of these treaties, indeed, would have less and less significance in the future anyhow, but things that in the past were covered by the treaties...things like so much twine, or so much gun powder and which haven't been paid, this must be paid. But I don't think that we should encourage the Indians to feel that their treaties should last forever within Canada so that they be able to receive their twine or their gun powder.

"They should become Canadians as all other Canadians and if they were prosperous and wealthy, they will be treated like prosperous and wealthy and they will be paying taxes for the other Canadians, who are not so prosperous and not so wealthy, whether they be Indians or English Canadians or French or Maritim-ers. (This) is the only basis on which I see our society can develop as equals," said Trudeau. "But aboriginal rights, this really means saying, 'We were here before you. You came and took the land from us and perhaps you cheated us by giving us some worthless things in return for vast expanses of land and we want to reopen this question. We want you to preserve our aboriginal rights and to re-store them to us.'

"And our answer - it may not be the right one and may not be one which is accepted, but it will be up to all you people to make your minds up and to choose for or against it and to discuss with the Indians - our answer is 'no' . . ."
More on link


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## Good2Golf (5 Jan 2012)

...and P.E.T.'s right hand man was......as viewed in the context from the eyes of the First Nations:
(interesting historical forensic trail of promises to address the issue)



> *Resolution no. 32*
> 
> *Special Chiefs Assembly*
> 
> ...





"...Will the Honourable Interim Leader of the 'No-Longer-the-Opposition' please tell us how his party would like to see the Government take action in the Attiwapiskat situation as well as that of the larger issue of the First Nations and their place within Canadian Socitey, such that the broken promises over decades of past Governments are not repeated, and so that the issue is resolved once and for all?"


----------



## Rifleman62 (5 Jan 2012)

Lets go up there in May to see the condition of the housing that was moved there just recently, as well as the sweat lodge.


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## GAP (5 Jan 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Lets go up there in May to see the condition of the housing that was moved there just recently, as well as the sweat lodge.



More importantly....let's take pictures of the people presently without housing or within the tents, and once the housing is built, take pictures of the residents...................wanna bet they won't be one and the same......


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## GAP (6 Jan 2012)

read the comments.....

Attawapiskat chief says reserve can’t pay bills under third-party management
Postmedia News  Jan 5, 2012
Article Link

By Linda Nguyen

TORONTO — Essential services and operations in the troubled Attawapiskat First Nation may stop this month if the federal government does not relax its control over the community’s finances, its chief warned Thursday.

Chief Theresa Spence says the northern Ontario reserve is at risk of not making its January payroll if Ottawa does not release funds currently overseen by a recently installed third-party manager.

“Chief Spence and her council continue to feel as if they are being punished by the minister for the crisis that exists in her community,” according to a statement by Mushkegowuk Council, which manages Attawapiskat and other neighbouring communities.

The manager was appointed in December amid outcry from Attawapiskat leaders, who say it was an unnecessary expense that will cost $20,000 a month.
More on link

Lorne Gunter: Fixing First Nation reserves is an inside job
Lorne Gunter  Jan 5, 2012
Article Link

Jeanette Peterson and Kirk Buffalo live more than 3,600 kilometres apart, almost on opposite ends of the country. Yet the two are connected by their desire to improve their respective First Nations communities.

Ms. Peterson is the newly elected Chief of Nova Scotia’s Annapolis Valley reserve, while Mr. Buffalo is a new Councillor at the Samson Cree band on central Alberta’s Hobbema reserve. Chief Peterson wants to bring financial accountability to her tiny community of 112 people, while Councillor Buffalo is attempting to clean up his community of 3,000, which has been plagued by murders, drive-by shootings, gang activity and drug dealing.

If Canada’s First Nations citizens are ever to lift themselves out of squalor, addiction, corruption and violence, the Petersons and Buffalos in their midst have to succeed.

More on link


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## GAP (7 Jan 2012)

Q&A: Stephen Harper’s record on First Nations
Kathryn Blaze Carlson  Dec 10, 2011
Article Link

A decade has passed since former Liberal Indian and Northern Affairs minister Robert Nault tried to overhaul the Indian Act with his First Nations Governance Act. Now a consultant still firmly plugged into the aboriginal community, Mr. Nault spoke with the National Post’s Kathryn Blaze Carlson about the lessons he learned as minister and his views on the current prime minister’s approach to First Nations policy. An edited transcript:

Q How is Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s approach different from that of former prime minister Jean Chrétien? Paul Martin?
A There’s no doubt in my mind that the strategy of the current government — which is different from the strategy when I was there — is to go very slowly, very carefully down the road to incremental change without causing too much ruckus.

Q What ideas has the Harper government borrowed from your First Nations Governance Act, which never passed?
A If you look at what they’ve started to implement, they were all in the First Nations Governance bill. Maybe they’re wiser than I was by doing it piece by piece, which seems to be allowing them to get these things through.

Q Do you think Mr. Harper has been more successful in advancing the First Nations file than the prime ministers before him?
A I think he’s doing as much, if not more, than most prime ministers. Most prime ministers — the Liberals in particular — did everything with money. They didn’t do a lot of work on structural, legislative change. Harper is moving more on the incremental change of institutions that in my view may perhaps in the future have an impact. I don’t believe any of this is near good enough, though, to make a serious difference in the lives of the people you’re seeing on TV.

Q What do you make of National Chief Shawn Atleo’s relationship with Mr. Harper? Do you think Mr. Harper puts as much power in the Assembly of First Nations’ hands as Mr. Chrétien or Mr. Martin did?
A I think [Chief Atleo’s] relationship with Mr. Harper is a much more professional one — it’s not as cozy as the other national chiefs tried to have with previous prime ministers. The relationship is different. The clout is not the same. 
More on link


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## ballz (24 Jan 2012)

"Harper sees jobs as key to better future for first nations"
BILL CURRY AND GLORIA GALLOWAY
OTTAWA— From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-sees-jobs-as-key-to-better-future-for-first-nations/article2312916/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Politics&utm_content=2312916



> Stephen Harper is pushing ahead with an agenda focused on practical steps to boost the economies of Canada’s reserves, pointing to a promising new generation of native leaders and entrepreneurs as examples of a brighter future.
> 
> More than 400 native chiefs from across the country arrived in Ottawa with wide-ranging demands for the one-day Crown-First Nations Gathering, but the Prime Minister quickly made clear that his priority was the economy.
> 
> ...



A second page is at the link.


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## GAP (24 Feb 2012)

Well, they're there....now to see how long it takes the band to set them up......I figure....Oct, maybe Nov.................

(watch how long it takes for "someone" to pinch appliances and other such removables included in the homes.....)

Attawapiskat gets final shipment of modular homes, government says
Postmedia News  Feb 23, 2012
Article Link
 By Teresa Smith

Trucks bearing the last of 22 long-awaited new homes rolled into the Attawapiskat First Nation in northern Ontario on Thursday morning, according to a statement from the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Nothern Development.

The government said the homes will be ready for families to move into once the community completes the necessary foundation work and installation of the modular homes on lots; electrical, sewer and water hookups are completed; and inspections are performed.

It was not immediately clear who would hook up power and water lines or perform the inspections, or when the homes would be ready to house families.

Many families in Attawapiskat have been living in tents and overcrowded sheds or houses, some of which have black mould growing on the walls and ceiling.

Without running water, many families use pails or buckets as toilets and have to haul their drinking water from a central community tap.

“They’re very small, very narrow,” Attawapiskat resident Martha Sutherland said of the new homes. “But, they’ll be great for a small family, maybe with one or two kids.”

Sutherland hadn’t confirmed for herself that all the new homes had arrived Thursday — she said she’d been too busy making pancakes for 12 kids, some hers, and some she was looking after while their parents were away. But, Sutherland said she had seen some of the homes that were placed nearby.
More on link


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## alocin (24 Feb 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> (watch how long it takes for "someone" to pinch appliances and other such removables included in the homes.....)



Does this not fall under the same oft-repeated mantra of "innocent until proven guilty"... ?


----------



## my72jeep (24 Feb 2012)

“They’re very small, very narrow,”


Yep. let the complaints about the freebies start.


----------



## Remius (24 Feb 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> “They’re very small, very narrow,”
> 
> 
> Yep. let the complaints about the freebies start.



Lets not be guilty of what we accuse the mainstream media and various journalists of doing.

"They're very small, very narrow," "But, they’ll be great for a small family, maybe with one or two kids.”

If you are going to quote what she said quote the whole thing.

Have you seen them?  They are narrow.  She stated a fact.  I didn't see a complaint.


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## my72jeep (24 Feb 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Lets not be guilty of what we accuse the mainstream media and various journalists of doing.
> 
> "They're very small, very narrow," "But, they’ll be great for a small family, maybe with one or two kids.”
> 
> ...


Sorry I see a complaint, as most families up there have 2-4 kids. I have seen them and yes they are narrow they were delivered on a truck then a train then an Ice road. All I'm saying is yet again its a freebie and the first quoted thing is that there very narrow, not Ah gee thanks Canada this will be a great start at re building my life,
My$0.2


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## Strike (24 Feb 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Have you seen them?  They are narrow.  She stated a fact.  I didn't see a complaint.



I also see that as a complaint.

Are they small by North American I-Must-Have-the-Largest-and-Most-Expensive-House-in-the-Neighbourhood status?  You bet.  But will they be good enough for a family of 4-6?  Well, My Aunt and Uncle raised their 2 in the same sized house and never had any issues when my family (5 of us) came to visit over Christmas or for several weeks in the summer.  So, yes, they will be fine.


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## lethalLemon (24 Feb 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Sorry I see a complaint, as most families up there have 2-4 kids. I have seen them and yes they are narrow they were delivered on a truck then a train then an Ice road. All I'm saying is yet again its a freebie and the first quoted thing is that there very narrow, not Ah gee thanks Canada this will be a great start at re building my life,
> My$0.2



Quite precisely.

Not even a thank you. Never a thank you. It's always "we're in a crisis, we demand X Y Z, and NOW!" The government could have easily said, "No, get off your fat salary and do it yourself." but instead they were generous enough to being the process of rebuilding a community and the lives within it.

Never a single, thank you.

(Or the CBC is trying to hide those too now?)


----------



## Remius (24 Feb 2012)

I don't know.  I saw it as a matter of fact statement.  First Nations' people tend to talk that way.  If it had been "why didn't they send us something bigger with a tv in it?" then maybe.  I don't blame the little woman who bakes pancakes on the reserve for kids for the town's predicament.  I also don't expect her to thank the government either.


----------



## Sythen (6 Apr 2012)

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20120405/attawapiskat-students-120405/



> OTTAWA — The federal government is pulling the third-party manager who had been handling the finances of the troubled northern Ontario reserve of Attawapiskat after the community improved health and safety conditions for its residents.
> 
> Jason MacDonald, a spokesman for aboriginal affairs minister John Duncan, confirmed Thursday evening that third-party manager Jacques Marion is being withdrawn because of progress in reserve management.
> 
> ...



More on link. Slight update to the story.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Apr 2012)

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/attawapiskat-keeps-court-date-federal-government-over-housing-023212973.html



> ATTAWAPISKAT, Ont. - The Attawapiskat First Nation says it won't drop legal action against the federal government over the appointment of a third-party manager to handle the band's finances.
> 
> That's despite the fact the government announced on Thursday that Jacques Marion is being withdrawn by April 19.
> 
> ...



Humm, ok chief, whatever you say !


----------



## Rifleman62 (9 Apr 2012)

You can take this anyway you want. A bit long, but interesting take.

From Small Dead Animals (some of the comments are very funny). http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/019790.html

The history lesson: How the Whites Took over America (Canada) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tacvR87FzBU#!


----------



## fraserdw (9 Apr 2012)

As an Indian, I take it as a bit of white supremacist BS.  Judging by the comments that go with on Youtube I would be right.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Apr 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> As an Indian,



"Call center" Indian or "come to our casino" Indian ?

I kid, i kid........ ;D


----------



## fraserdw (9 Apr 2012)

Miq Maq Indian.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (11 Jul 2012)

I was just up in Attawapiskat in March.  Let me just say the homes they received are your standard mobile home.  Nothing super or fancy, but they'll keep you warm and comfortable.

In the end this whole situation was a farce and quite honestly just brought a few larger and systemic problems to the front page that have to be resolved.  Will they?  Probably not any time soon, but hopefully it's going down that road.


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jul 2012)

Happen to see 90 million laying around?


----------



## a_majoor (13 Jul 2012)

More scandal. We really should insist on transparency and accountability since we, the taxpayers of Canada, are providing the monies. Don't want to open the books? Fine, we don't want to send you the money until you do:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/13/innu-nation-angry-as-former-chief-paid-1m-in-two-years/



> *Innu nation angry as former chief paid $1M in two years*
> 
> Joe O'Connor  Jul 13, 2012 – 9:31 PM ET
> 
> ...


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (17 Jul 2012)

I agree 100% with the above statement and article.  I believe I said this before, but I know of a Chief of a First Nation community in Northern Ontario that owns a home in Thunder Bay that is worth over $1,000,000.  This community in Labrador is not alone in what it's going through.

Why is accountability being fought so hard?  If everything is above board and decisions are being made the right way with the money, then leaders should have no issues being transparent.  Fighting being transparent and honest should always send up red flags.


----------



## ArmyRick (17 Jul 2012)

Greed is a nasty disease that can corrupt those in power. Too bad their is no immunization for it!


----------



## a_majoor (17 Jul 2012)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Greed is a nasty disease that can corrupt those in power. Too bad their is no immunization for it!



The ancient Greeks (no jokes about my first hand experience) had one solution, what we would call "term limits".

Members of the Jury were selected at random for each case or sitting.

Members of higher level juries (which debated policy questions or audited senior figures like the Strategoi or Polemarch) were also selected by lot, in many cities they were excluded for subsequent drawings for the remainder of the year.

Members of the Boule were selected for a one year term and never eligable for selection during the remainder of their lives.

No system is perfect, and by the time the real Thucydides writes about demagogues were skilled at swaying the Juries to vote on whatever they could whip up passion for (in one case the Jury voted to kill and enslave the entire population of an allied city that had risen in revolt, the very next day they were persuaded to reverse the vote and send a recall notice to the punative expedition). As well there were no term limits to Strategoi or Polmarch appointments, once elected to the post you could attempt to have the Jury reconfirm you every time your term ran out.

Since the current system of governance on the reserves is based (in a practical sense) on patronage between family and clan members, then current laws and institutions are not really equipped to deal with this. Realistically, dramatically limiting the powers of "cheifs" and other elected officials will remove a lot of the incentive to game the system, so that is the solution I would favour.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jul 2012)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Greed is a nasty disease that can corrupt those in power. Too bad their is no immunization for it!


Sure there is.  It's called  integrity and honour.


----------



## GAP (17 Jul 2012)

Having worked on Reserves, I found that the moment one family/power group gets elected out and another in, the new ones feed at the trough quickly because the others did, and they want to before they get kicked out. It's a self-licking ice cream cone cycle.....


----------



## Old Sweat (17 Jul 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Having worked on Reserves, I found that the moment one family/power group gets elected out and another in, the new ones feed at the trough quickly because the others did, and they want to before they get kicked out. It's a self-licking ice cream cone cycle.....



It wasn't all that long ago - less than half a century - that that sort of thing was fairly common in municipal and provincial politics.


----------



## Bass ackwards (17 Jul 2012)

Since it falls in line with the last couple of pages of discussion here, I'll add this article from the Thompson Citizen, reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act. (highlights mine)

*Split Lake walkers hope to build homes step by step*
BY IAN GRAHAM

Multiple generations of one Tataskweyak Cree Nation family were among a group of walkers who arrived from the Northern Manitoba community in Thompson on July 6 near the beginning of a journey – by foot – to Winnipeg, which they hope will raise awareness of the housing crisis on their First Nation as well as pledges that will go toward the construction of new homes.

"We started off in Split Lake on Tuesday morning, 11 o'clock, we did a prayer. members from chief and council and the housing authority attended that. and then they started walking - Roma [Spence], Greta [Clipping] and Sarah [Garson] - three of them started," said Lavern Spence, the spokesman for the group and also the husband of Roma. "Others have joined along the way and we are expecting more people to join us, a couple more from Nelson House and we'll see how it progresses as the public becomes more aware this is happening."

Several youth were also among the walkers who arrived in Thompson, including Christina Garson, Justice Spence, Jaylin Spence and Ginny Spence

In a meeting with Thompson MLA Steve Ashton, Churchill NDP MP Niki Ashton, Keewatin Tribal Council Grand Chief Irvin Sinclair and representatives of other organizations at Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak's office in Thompson, Lavern Spence outlined the housing situation in Tataskweyak Cree Nation, noting that there only 322 homes for a population of approximately 2,800 people, about half the number that are needed.

"You divide that, how many per house, how many in a house?" he said. "Sometimes we have two or three families living in a home. They take shifts to sleep. Families are big enough, they're taking shifts. Some will sleep during the night, they're all rested they get up and go and the next people that stayed up all night will go to bed. That's the reality. These are things that we're trying to find solutions for."

One of the walkers, Roma Spence, said the journey was already taking a toll on her body.

"That first day was really hard," she said. "Our feet were getting blistered. Right now I need medical attention because my feet are infected. Why am I going through this? For my people because I care for them. There's hardly any resources in Spit Lake."

In addition to creating awareness, the walkers hoped to collect donations and pledges that would be used to build 10 new houses at Tataskweyak Cree Nation using local contractors and labour.

"We're asking for help," said Roma Spence. "We need new homes."

Another participant, Greta Clipping, said her community couldn't rely on the chief and council to solve the housing crisis.

"I'm known as a, I can say bad, the bad one, mainly because I was against the dam because I knew that in the future our land was going to be destroyed, our land and water," she said. "Our chief [Duke Beardy] lives here [in Thompson] in comfort while his people are over there suffering. He is never around when we need him. That's not what I call a chief. I'm sorry to say but he's a businessman and he calls himself a chief."

Clipping also said band members were not informed about decisions that affect their lives.

"Even the elders who sit around like this in Winnipeg, they don't even want to acknowledge their people's voices," she said. "I'm sorry to say that but it's true. They spend $20,000 a week when they go to Winnipeg. That could be one two-bedroom house right there. They don't even bring anything back, 'Ok, come here people, this is what was going on. This is what we've gone to talk about.' Not once. That's not how you treat people. Being mistreated, it's not something you do to your people."

Alberteen Spence, Lavern's sister, who isn't one of the walkers but has taken part in other other actions, including a protest outside the TCN band office in May, and a blockade of the road to the Keeyask Dam site that began on Tuesday evening, said that while she had mixed feelings about the walk, the fact that TCN has a housing crisis couldn't be denied.

"The living condition and the standards are pretty low," she said. "They're usually called fourth world conditions because we live in a country that is one of the most affluent countries in the word and yet these conditions are right here in Canada with the economy that's doing much better than most countries in the world."

Full article:
http://www.thompsoncitizen.net/article/20120713/THOMPSON0101/307139923/-1/thompson01/split-lake-walkers-hope-to-build-homes-step-by-step

*************************************************************************

This is up in my neck of the woods. 

I have to commend these folks for at least trying to do something about it rather than just sitting around whining. I would not care to walk from Split Lake to Thompson -it's a 125 km down a gravel road cut through the bush and the bugs are large enough to pose a hazard to aviation.
Plus they still have the 750 km walk to Winnipeg. 

I don't hold out much hope for their cause, though. We know the chiefs are corrupt as hell. They know the chiefs are corrupt as hell. Even the chiefs likely know they're corrupt as hell. But no one is willing to do anything about it. 
Steve Ashton (MPP) and Nikki Ashton (MP) will most likely (based on past performance) use this as a platform to shoot at conservatives from, but that's all they'll do.

I doubt many private citizens will pony up much cash -unless they're bullied into it. No one wants to throw good, hard-earned, money after bad.
And the beat goes on...


----------



## GAP (17 Jul 2012)

And yet, while most know about them, not a one will build a stack-wall house. FFS they are sitting in the middle of hundreds of miles of forest, but they don't want to use the resourses right outside their own front doors.

They are warmer than anything the south can ship up, last longer, are sturdier and easily added to.


----------



## Bass ackwards (17 Jul 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> And yet, while most know about them, not a one will build a stack-wall house. FFS they are sitting in the middle of hundreds of miles of forest, but they don't want to use the resourses right outside their own front doors.
> 
> They are warmer than anything the south can ship up, last longer, are sturdier and easily added to.



I don't know if building a house out of stove-length logs is really a good idea on a reserve... 
I hear what you're saying, though.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jul 2012)

Here's an idea. Abolish the Indian Act.


----------



## LineJumper (17 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Here's an idea. Abolish the Indian Act.



Sadly, doing something like that would draw a hard line. A line many serving members would have to look at. I am personaly loyal to the crown, today.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jul 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> Sadly, doing something like that would draw a hard line. A line many serving members would have to look at. I am personaly loyal to the crown, today.



Why would serving members have to look at this line?


----------



## LineJumper (17 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Why would serving members have to look at this line?



Skin colour?


----------



## aesop081 (17 Jul 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> Skin colour?



 :facepalm:


----------



## GAP (17 Jul 2012)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> I don't know if building a house out of stove-length logs is really a good idea on a reserve...
> I hear what you're saying, though.



Hell, they burn them down anyway...the southern type construction just burns easier...and faster. ...but, with the fire engine frozen up full of water they don't have anything to fight the fire except throw snowballs at it. 

The natives used to be a proud, hardworking people. Some still are. The generational growth of us lying to them and giving them handouts because they demand it without accountability is doing them no favors. 

It's gonna hurt when the tap get shut off. 

 :2c:


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jul 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> Skin colour?



Allow me to explain my context.  Throwing millions and millions of dollars at people/organizations with no accountability isn't fixing the problem.

I'm suggesting the current Indian act plays a big part in enabling this problem to grow and prosper.  By abolishing the Indian Act Canada would be begin to stop the problem of a few individuals getting all the money and everyone else suffering, to put it bluntly.Treat Native Americans (Canadians)  like Chinese Canadians, Italian Canadians, French Canadians, Hindu Canadians et el.  Those groups manage to maintain their culture in Canada with out the equivalent of the indian act.


----------



## GAP (2 Aug 2012)

‘Unreasonable’ for government to send third-party manager to Attawapiskat: Federal Court
Terry Pedwell, The Canadian Press  Aug 1, 2012
Article Link

OTTAWA — It was “unreasonable in all circumstances” for the federal government to appoint a third-party manager for the financially troubled First Nations community of Attawapiskat, the Federal Court ruled Wednesday.

But there was no political malice at play in the decision — on the part of either Prime Minister Stephen Harper or members of his cabinet — nor any intent to embarrass the northern Ontario reserve or its members, the court concluded.

The decision in November 2011 to send in Jacques Marion to take over the band’s finances was the wrong way to deal with the housing crisis on the northern Ontario reserve, the court said in its written ruling.

“The decision to appoint (Marion) did not respond in a reasonable way to the root of the problems at Attawapiskat nor to the remedies available,” the ruling said.

“The (government) invoked a financial management remedy without considering more reasonable, more responsive or less invasive remedies available.”

But the court took pains to point out that it found no evidence that Ottawa was playing politics with the community when Marion was appointed.

“Those allegations were largely withdrawn, and to the extent that they linger, the court finds that there is no evidence that the prime minister or the cabinet engaged in such reprehensible conduct,” the decision said.

“The problem in this case does not lie at the feet of the political masters but in the hands of the bureaucracy.”

The James Bay community of 2,000 declared a state of emergency in October 2011 after a severe housing shortage forced more than two dozen families to live in temporary shelters, some without insulation or plumbing.

The Conservative government appointed a third-party manager amid suggestions from Prime Minister Stephen Harper that the band had been mismanaging federal funds in the face of the housing crisis.

Marion was withdrawn in April, but the Attawapiskat First Nation refused to drop its lawsuit against the government.

The band said it wanted to proceed to get the courts to “refute” Harper’s suggestion that the band had been mismanaging federal money and to have Marion’s appointment declared unlawful.

When Marion was pulled, government officials insisted it was due to the fact the band had done a good job in improving the health and safety conditions that had required the outside control in the first place.

They said the 25 families affected by the housing crisis were now living in better conditions.
end


----------



## a_majoor (2 Aug 2012)

I read the same story in the National Post, and the comments section has lit up like a pinball machine, with an almost universal negative reaction to the ruling.

The fact that this ruling effectively whitewashes the issue of $90 million dollars being received by the band over the previous five years (which should have prevented the crisis many times over), and perpetuates a system lacking in accountability and suffering from corruption because of the lack of accountability. I personally would hope the Government tells the judge to get stuffed, or better still, uses the ruling to overhaul the system to insert accountability (i.e. you don't get government money unless we have a clean, audited set of books in our hands and can do spot checks to see where our money is going).


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Aug 2012)

For those wanting to know more of the story, attached find the judgement in question.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Oct 2012)

A sensible solution. Oddly this was suggested by another Liberal decades ago (Jean Chreitien), but shot down pretty quickly. I would hope that the current government gives this due consideration, and maybe even is willing to expend the political capital needed to end the "Indian Industry".

http://www.danieldickin.ca/2012/10/its-time-to-abolish-indian-act.html



> I*t's time to abolish the Indian Act*
> 
> Every once-in-a-while political parties, regardless of their position on the spectrum, propose policies that are long overdue and just make sense.
> 
> ...


----------



## Infanteer (23 Oct 2012)

Pretty good blog post, actually.

The Indian Act and DAANDC is an embarrassment to a 21st century liberal democracy.  Let's resolve treaty issues and get on with things.

Cutting this act (or severely curtailing it) and emptying this department would save the government 7.8 billion dollars a year.  How's that for deficit action plan?


----------



## GAP (23 Oct 2012)

So....like, you tell the reserves "the cheque is in the mail" ? 

What about all the treaties, agreements, et al. Are they actually going to hold the reserves financially accountable? Treat them like muncipalities? 

It is certainly doable, just wondering if we are not going to created one boondoggle out the other boondoggle....


----------



## a_majoor (11 Dec 2012)

Reading the comments section in the National Post below the article, I can say that very few people are being taken by this....

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/11/idle-no-more-hunger-striking-attawapiskat-chief-vows-to-die-for-her-people-as-aboriginal-protests-spread/



> *‘Idle No More’: Hunger-striking Attawapiskat chief vows to ‘die’ for her people as aboriginal protests spread*
> 
> Canadian Press | Dec 11, 2012 11:23 AM ET
> More from Canadian Press
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Dec 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/events/418359484903366/

Too funny.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Dec 2012)

It's about time the taxpayers found out where their money was going. 

It'll probably be a big eye opener to most band members also. :


Hmmm. I didn't get a Facebook invite :dunno:


----------



## GAP (11 Dec 2012)

Why is she not doing her hunger strike on her own reserve rather than Ottawa?  If you are gonna be hungry, its at least nice to be comfortable....  :


----------



## Journeyman (11 Dec 2012)

From the FB page


> REQUEST URGENT!! We are seeking an *army bed* for Chief Theresa Spense so she will not have to sleep on the ground


 Hmm.....my "army bed" is like a yoga mat -- non-inflatable -- only olive drab. Probably not as posh as she's hoping for.


----------



## Scott (11 Dec 2012)

Yeahhhh, I'm not going to be all broken up over this.

One of the first times I have ever been really impressed with the comments following a Globe article though!


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2012)

More funnies from the FB page.








Chief Spence - the equivalent of nelson Mandela


----------



## Danjanou (12 Dec 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Chief Spence is the female equivalent of nelson Mandela apparently.



well you're half right.  8)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (12 Dec 2012)

Seriously, a part of _In Flanders Fields_ too?   :facepalm:

Judging by her double-chin in the picture, she hasn't done any hunger strike workup training...


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Dec 2012)

Uh oh...


http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2012/12/16/first-nations-war-drums-will-ring-loudly-if-spence-dies-nepinak/


> PTN National News
> OTTAWA–The “long silent war drums” of First Nations people will pound again if Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence dies from her hunger strike, says the head of Manitoba’s largest chiefs organization.
> 
> Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Grand Chief Derek Nepinak issued the statement Sunday, the same day Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo released an open letter calling on Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Gov. Gen. David Johnston to agree to Spence’s demand and meet with First Nations leaders to discuss the treaties.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Dec 2012)

> PTN National News
> OTTAWA–The “long silent war drums” of First Nations people will pound again if Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence dies from her hunger strike, says the head of Manitoba’s largest chiefs organization.
> 
> Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs Grand Chief Derek Nepinak issued the statement Sunday, the same day Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo released an open letter calling on *Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Gov. Gen. David Johnston to agree to Spence’s demand* and meet with First Nations leaders to discuss the treaties.



I see this as a large part of the problem whenever natives want to talk.

She, of course, is in a position to *request* anything she wishes.

She is in absolutely no position to *demand* anything of the PM, the GG or anyone else for that matter.

The fastest way to short circuit any negotiation or discussion is to *demand* that the other side acquiesce to your wants. Especially straight out of the gate.

War drums?? Pfffft. Empty threats and a road I don't think they seriously want to consider as an alternative. The Canadian public has long run out of patience with occupations, roadblocks and threats to our well being created by domestic terrorists. People like McGuinty won't have sheeple constituents that are willing to roll over and take it up the ass again for the sake of non-confrontation.


----------



## OldSolduer (19 Dec 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> More funnies from the FB page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whoever made this one up failed miserably. It wasn't intended to be used to promote greed and selfishness.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Dec 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I see this as a large part of the problem whenever natives want to talk.
> 
> She, of course, is in a position to *request* anything she wishes.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly.  The minute you start demanding something people are inclined to reply GFYS.

"Beating war drums" is a typical asinine comment I've come to expect and a great way to alienate many Canadians who may be sympathetic to the issue. I was genuinely interested to hear what the chiefs had to say on this issue up to that point. Now they just sound like domestic terrorists.



Under the mental health act if I threaten to harm myself I can get arrested and brought to a hospital to be checked out right?
Wouldn't actively partaking in a hungerstrike (while making comments if I die then I am okay with it) something that would fall under willingly injuring yourself and subject to the MHA?

I can't say I will hang myself or shoot myself but I can say I will starve myself to death?


----------



## Good2Golf (19 Dec 2012)

While they may say that such words ("war drums") were used figuratively, the word "war" has a very clear connotation to the rest of Canadians, and risks alienating Canadians from the fundamental nature of First Nations people's concerns.

My greatest concern as a Canadian who wants to see First Nations treated equitably and fairly is the well-known issue of inequality and systemic unfair treatment WITHIN A number of First Nations communities.  The concerns by a number of members of the Attawapiskat Nation regarding alleged inequitable distributions to members of Federally-provided funding are troubling, particularly in light of Chief Spences' refusal to provide openness of internal Band records to the distribution of monies to all Attawapiskat community members.

Perhaps in the spirit of open dialogue, if the PM and Minister did agree to meet with First Nations representatives, they could be met with a provision of records that Federally monies given to communities had in fact been distributed equitably (as it appears may not have been the case at Attawapiskat).

Regards
G2G


----------



## GAP (19 Dec 2012)

Simple. Defund the Band Council, pay each bandmember a proportional share of the $$ available to that band. If they want to do something collectively, then pitch your share in, or not.


----------



## George Wallace (19 Dec 2012)

GAP said:
			
		

> Simple. Defund the Band Council, pay each bandmember a proportional share of the $$ available to that band. If they want to do something collectively, then pitch your share in, or not.



Pay the Band members and let the Band Council levee Municipal Taxes on them, like the rest of us folks.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Dec 2012)

This is the type of shit that REALLY pisses me off.  Why, why, why are they allowed to pull this kind of crap?  If I shut down a highway, will the police stand by and watch?  Nope, no double standards in play here.  Wonder what would happen if a bunch of people protested their protesting and blocked them from getting back home.   

Any little smidge of sympathy I may have felt for these 'protesters', if they had done things the way everyone else in Canada is expected to, is gone.  I am one Canadian who is beyond tired of this BS happening, and nothing being done about it because "we wouldn't want to offend anyone".   :

It wasn't 'dozens, more like 200 of them and they pretty much shut the 102 down.   

Article Link

Idle No More protests begin in Nova Scotia

Dozens of aboriginal people in Nova Scotia are joining a national day of action and protesting in two parts of the province.

They gathered Friday in Millbrook and on the Canso Causeway to speak out against the federal government's omnibus budget Bill C-45 and its effect on the Aboriginal community.

In a release, the organizers of the Nova Scotia events say they're concerned about the "imposition of water boil orders, prohibited hunting and fishing, community land rights and hindered traditional ideals which would remove importance of culture from generations to come."

Meanwhile, the RCMP are warning people about possible traffic delays along Highway 102 between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m.

Police are putting up safety barriers that will reduce the north and southbound lanes to one lane at the Truro Power Center near Exit 13A.

The CBC's Paul Palmeter reported a 30 minute delay for drivers trying to get through the area.


----------



## Kat Stevens (21 Dec 2012)

Water boil order imposition?  Fuck em, don't warn them, they can drink water traditionally and have everything from the lungs down fall out their assholes, fucking idiots.  They're given money to make their water drinkable, because they'd rather spend it on a new snow machine every other year is not my problem.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Dec 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Wonder what would happen if a bunch of people protested their protesting and blocked them from getting back home.



You'd be branded a racist by the media and thrown under the proverbial bus.


----------



## my72jeep (21 Dec 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You'd be branded a racist by the media and thrown under the proverbial bus.



Just like OPP Sgt Ken Dean was.


----------



## a_majoor (22 Dec 2012)

A good blog comment on the situation. IF enough taxpayers were to pressure their MP's and MPPs in this direction, there might be some more political will to keep moving in the direction of accountability

http://www.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?TimePeriod=current:

http://cruxofthematterblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/idle-no-more-first-nations-campaign-about-entitlements-vs-responsibilities/



> *“Idle No More” First Nations campaign about entitlements vs responsibilities*
> 
> While I don’t usually write about federal politics anymore, I could not ignore the current “Idle No More“ campaign by Canada’s Aboriginal peoples and what used to be the Occupy movement.
> 
> ...


----------



## Scott (22 Dec 2012)

Fucking arseholes sure didn't advance their cause much by blocking the highways in Truro and Cape Breton - that's according to the outrage I see on Facebook. 

Last night I had someone telling me that civil disobedience is a way to get others to put pressure on their elected officials. Because we'll eventually get sick of highway holdups. As Thucydides aryicle points out, and as I mentioned to this dolt last night, that could backfire in a big way. I hope it does.

This isn't the first highway blockade in the last while. About six months ago they were pissed off about fracking a well that hadn't even been frigging drilled yet. Real bunch of geniuses there.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Dec 2012)

We enable them to blockade roads by our police forces standing by watching instead of arresting them.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Dec 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> Fucking arseholes sure didn't advance their cause much by blocking the highways in Truro and Cape Breton - that's according to the outrage I see on Facebook.
> 
> Last night I had someone telling me that civil disobedience is a way to get others to put pressure on their elected officials. Because we'll eventually get sick of highway holdups. As Thucydides aryicle points out, and as I mentioned to this dolt last night, that could backfire in a big way. I hope it does.
> 
> This isn't the first highway blockade in the last while. About six months ago they were pissed off about fracking a well that hadn't even been frigging drilled yet. Real bunch of geniuses there.



Finally New Brunswick did something right.  The Reserve near Mactaquac used to always block the Trans Canada Hwy there when they wanted attention.  The new Trans Canada now goes around the Reserve.


----------



## teabag (22 Dec 2012)

The point of a protest, like a strike, is to be seen and heard so I imagine they were running low on options.  At least, in their point of view.  It would convenient if they would start destroying private property.  I agree there should be accountability in the money the government spends on First Nations.  What I'm confused about is, if it is widely accepted knowledge that their Chiefs are corrupt, why does nobody just tell them so?  Direct payment to band members sounds like a good idea.  

If a group of people decided to stage a counter protest I do not believe the media will label them racist.  I also doubt they will be thrown under a proverbial bus.  The question is, who will carry out this kind of protest?  It is probably because most people are too busy trying to make a living.  Or maybe they're afraid they will be proven wrong. 

Acting Sergeant Kenneth Deane was convicted of criminal negligence causing death.  He was not a protester but a police officer.  I do not think he was being racist; just that his actions resulted in the loss of life.  The judge, who may or may not have been biased, also accused him of dishonesty.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Dec 2012)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> The point of a protest, like a strike, is to be seen and heard so I imagine they were running low on options.  At least, in their point of view.  It would convenient if they would start destroying private property.  I agree there should be accountability in the money the government spends on First Nations.  What I'm confused about is, if it is widely accepted knowledge that their Chiefs are corrupt, why does nobody just tell them so?  Direct payment to band members sounds like a good idea.
> 
> If a group of people decided to stage a counter protest I do not believe the media will label them racist.  I also doubt they will be thrown under a proverbial bus.  The question is, who will carry out this kind of protest?  It is probably because most people are too busy trying to make a living.  Or maybe they're afraid they will be proven wrong.
> 
> Acting Sergeant Kenneth Deane was convicted of criminal negligence causing death.  He was not a protester but a police officer.  I do not think he was being racist; just that his actions resulted in the loss of life.  The judge, who may or may not have been biased, also accused him of dishonesty.



You mean like Caledonia or the area around Ipperwash\ Grand Bend?


----------



## George Wallace (22 Dec 2012)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> If a group of people decided to stage a counter protest I do not believe the media will label them racist.  I also doubt they will be thrown under a proverbial bus.  The question is, who will carry out this kind of protest?  It is probably because most people are too busy trying to make a living.  Or maybe they're afraid they will be proven wrong.



Do you have any knowledge of what has been happening in Caledonia?  The locals, especially those whose property is in the disputed lands, have counter protested.  They have been thrown under the "proverbial bus" by the Ontario Government and Justices System.


----------



## Journeyman (22 Dec 2012)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> ...... I imagine they were running low on options.


Interesting phraseology -- one can almost picture the poor martyrs with their backs to the wall. 

With the consensus here being the key issue is tribal leaders' lack of accountability in the misuse of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Canadian taxpayers' dollars, I'm not feeling that Joan of Arc-style "my cause is just" compassion towards them. Sorry.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Dec 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Do you have any knowledge of what has been happening in Caledonia?  The locals, especially those whose property is in the disputed lands, have counter protested.  They have been thrown under the "proverbial bus" by the Ontario Government and Justices System.



How true. The OPP did nothing and the media portrayed the "protestors" as misunderstood oppressed aboriginal people.....while some of the "protestors" were wearing "Warrior" vests.

Where I come from, those that wear "Warrior" vests are criminals and tend to run at the first sign of trouble, unless they out gun and outnumber their opponents. They are nothing but cowards, drug dealers and thieves.


----------



## a_majoor (23 Dec 2012)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> I agree there should be accountability in the money the government spends on First Nations.  What I'm confused about is, if it is widely accepted knowledge that their Chiefs are corrupt, why does nobody just tell them so?



Because there is a multi billion dollar "Indian Industry" which feeds lawyers, politicians, Band cheifs and councils, media and a huge bureaucracy, and they all have a huge vested interest in keeping things the way they are. (One side effect not mentioned about the Bill C-27 is that accountability might also illuminate the subculture of "middlemen" who also get a slice of the pie).

In economics this is known as a perverse incentive.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Dec 2012)

Interesting article on Mcleans.

If anyone wants to donate money to Chief Spence they can send it, specifically per her wishes, to Clay.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/12/27/the-hunger-artist/


----------



## Scott (29 Dec 2012)

I had a feeling when this BS started that they'd be their own undoing and I am glad to see that they appear to be. No doubt the sympathetic to their plight stupid will find some way to justify this... :


----------



## my72jeep (29 Dec 2012)

Yep All hell is about to break lose. they are holding an Idle no more protest in wawa today. They plan to Peacefully blockade the Goose. Hell what is to be gained here in wawa.


----------



## Jarnhamar (29 Dec 2012)

If you follow any social groups there seems to be 2 camps. The moderates who want to find solutions and others who seem hardly able to contain themselves with anger and are just itching for a chance to fight something, anything. The latter are acting like a bunch of bullies to the former.


First nations people who disagree with blockading border crossings for selfish reasons such as needing to bring children to daycare or not being able to afford missing even 1 day of work are shouted down by others who have accepted that blocking off a road will end first nations problems.  It's sad seeing parents worried about feeding their children being treated like 'traitors' and accused of being spies for the Harper government. Called cowards, accused of betraying their ancestors etc..

Really peaceful group that is.


----------



## ballz (29 Dec 2012)

What the hell does she need monetary donations for? It's cheap to starve.


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Dec 2012)

There is a criminal/rabble rousing element at work as well. Caledonia has seen "warriors" from the aboriginal community at their worst.


----------



## Scott (30 Dec 2012)

I just looked at a couple of the Facebook pages and things are getting downright idiotic. From challenges to Stephen Harper's manhood to calling out whites, they appear to thrive on bully tactics. I have no doubt that if I registered on one of the groups and voiced my disagreement that I'd be attacked or muzzled - and therefore find it funny that these dolts are claiming that government trolls are responsible for asking for money.

Personally, Chief Spence has done nothing but convince me that she is a spotlight hound and a bully.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Dec 2012)

Sounds like elements of racism and a lean towards support of hate crimes IMO.  Time for someone to call a spade a spade WRT their actions and intentions.


----------



## jollyjacktar (30 Dec 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> I just looked at a couple of the Facebook pages and things are getting downright idiotic. From challenges to Stephen Harper's manhood to calling out whites, they appear to thrive on bully tactics. I have no doubt that if I registered on one of the groups and voiced my disagreement that I'd be attacked or muzzled - and therefore find it funny that these dolts are claiming that government trolls are responsible for asking for money.
> 
> Personally, Chief Spence has done nothing but convince me that she is a spotlight hound and a bully.



That's not surprising if the Warrior Society and American Indian Movement types are sniffing around in person and on line.  We would have AIM come around the area I grew up from time to time with the intent to stir up trouble.  They're a worthless bunch of shyte.


----------



## Scott (30 Dec 2012)

I have zero doubt that they are. Each subgroup with an agenda of their own to advance, each with methods of their own. Idiots: pretty much the entire works.

Fully agree with your last.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Dec 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Sounds like elements of racism and a lean towards support of hate crimes IMO.  Time for someone to call a spade a spade WRT their actions and intentions.



Only white people are racists, dontcha know?


----------



## teabag (30 Dec 2012)

Some of the more recent replies seem to be expressions of frustration with the actions of certain Aboriginal groups or of the inaction on the part of the provincial police.  I'll be the first to admit that I do not know much about the First Nations but I think it is important to keep in mind that there are at least two sides to every issue.  There are also replies that are resentful, perhaps outright hateful, of the demands, behavior and attitudes of the First Nations but I have trouble understanding the origins of such hostility.  

I did read up a little bit about Caledonia and am aware of other past or current land claim disputes between First Nations and the Crown.  Are we unhappy because those designated with Indian status receive certain entitlements that other Canadians do not?  Is there anger because of the way they choose to stage their protests?  If the opinion is that members of First Nations are being treated with different standards, why do you think this is so?  Mismanagement of public funds is a concern for all Canadians, but it is a bit of a jump to start suggesting that the Indian Act and other related acts be removed.  How many of us know how governments funds are spent, in detail, on an annual basis and, how come the same concern does not apply?  

Is it because we resent their current way of living?  In instances, to spend recklessly or to misappropriate taxpayer money?  There are those who argue that the First Nations should try harder to integrate with the rest of Canadian society, but what does that entail?  Many of us are aware of abuses on Reserves, related to women, drugs or gambling.  What sort of steps would you propose to improve their lot, or, in your opinion, that is something they need to figure out for themselves because they have no one to blame but themselves? 

Would we suggest that they go into agriculture and try to start a farm?  Anyone who owns or works on a farm knows how difficult that can be without proper investment.  I'll also be the first to say that yes, Aboriginal people can be racist.  They can be violent, greedy and in general unfriendly or biased against non-natives.  I think it is important for Canadians to have a better understanding of the Crown's relationship with the First Nations community and the history when discussing contemporary issues.  The key is to locate the facts amid the sensational fluff that finds it course on the internet or in your local bar.  

One thing I am thankful for is that, for the most part, lawyers do have the time and resources to pull that information and make an objective decision on these matters.  

Regarding Caledonia, the property development company had already reached a settlement with the government of Canada for all current and future damages.  The residents of Caledonia had also reached a similar agreement with the province of Ontario, although it did not come until much later and does not make up for the poor handling of the issue.  As for the OPP, why would they deliberately throw people under a bus?  That makes no sense to me.  I think the OPP were doing their job based on the decision of others who had a much more thorough knowledge of the legal implications surrounding the dispute.   

Anyhow, consider this an attempt to steer this discussion back on track.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Dec 2012)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Only white people are racists, dontcha know?



That actually seems to be a common held belief among the left that only white people are racist and "reverse racisim" is a phrase coined by the whites to try and shift blame away from their misogynist racist settler privileged ways.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Dec 2012)

Now, the _Globe and Mail_ reports, protesters, assumed to be _Idle No More_ have blocked the main rail line between Toronto and Montreal at a location near Belleville, ON. The report, time stamped at 1923 Hrs, quotes a CN Rail spokesman as saying the rail line has been blocked for a couple of hours and a number of passenger and freight trains have been held up.

According to the same CN spokesman: it’s believed rail officials and police are trying to determine their (the protesters') intentions.


Edit: format


----------



## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Now, the _Globe and Mail reports, protesters, assumed to be Idle No More have blocked the main rail line between Toronto and Montreal at a location near Belleville, ON. The reports, time stamped at 1923 Hrs, quotes a CN Rail spokesman as saying the rail line has been blocked for a couple of hours and a number of passenger and freight trains have been held up.
> 
> According to the same CN spokesman: it’s believed rail officials and police are trying to determine their (the protesters') intentions.
> _


_
Isn't blocking a vital rail line an act of Domestic Terrorism?_


----------



## Scott (30 Dec 2012)

Of course not! Just ask them.


----------



## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

Hell I'm just spitballing ideas that the OPP can use to get off their asses and do their jobs.


----------



## larry Strong (30 Dec 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Hell I'm just spitballing ideas that the OPP can use to get off their asses and do their jobs.



Stick a Timmies out there, they would be there in a heartbeat..........


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Dec 2012)

:  Why we are forced to tolerate this crap is beyond me.


----------



## jollyjacktar (30 Dec 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Hell I'm just spitballing ideas that the OPP can use to get off their asses and do their jobs.



Ipperwash part deux?


----------



## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

Yes after the Ipperwash Debacle and the which hunt for a scapegoat that followed the OPP have no balls to deal with the native issue.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Dec 2012)

Rather, the political leadership has no desire for confrontation, and the OPP take their direction from the political leadership.

Fun to watch the VIA Rail twitter feed right now...

https://twitter.com/VIA_Rail


----------



## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Rather, the political leadership has no desire for confrontation, and the OPP take their direction from the political leadership.
> 
> Fun to watch the VIA Rail twitter feed right now...
> 
> https://twitter.com/VIA_Rail


OK Ill buy that.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Dec 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Rather, the political leadership has no desire for confrontation, and the OPP take their direction from the political leadership.
> 
> Fun to watch the VIA Rail twitter feed right now...
> 
> https://twitter.com/VIA_Rail



So...if ViaRail calls for help because someone is illegally blocking their route....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Dec 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Hell I'm just spitballing ideas that the OPP can use to get off their asses and do their jobs.



Not under McGuinty's stewardship. He has no guts for confrontation. He'd rather give in and buy a native solution with taxpayer money.


----------



## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not under McGuinty's stewardship. He has no guts for confrontation. He'd rather give in and buy a native solution with taxpayer money.


I know that and you know that and the Natives really know that.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Dec 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> :  Why we are forced to tolerate this crap is beyond me.


because we have been burned by the lifting bleeding heart a$$clowns


----------



## Journeyman (31 Dec 2012)

From CBC:





> Attawapiskat chief 'willing to die' to force Harper meeting


Fine by me.  But then the same asshats would be complaining when the PM _did_ show up at her funeral.


----------



## larry Strong (31 Dec 2012)

These make for some interesting reading........

http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Management-Letter.pdf

http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Financial-Statements-Attawapiskat-Trust.pdf


Larry


----------



## jollyjacktar (31 Dec 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> From CBC:Fine by me.  But then the same asshats would be complaining when the PM _did_ show up at her funeral.



Looking at the photos, she has plenty of BMI to burn off first.  Might take a while.


----------



## Journeyman (31 Dec 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Looking at the photos, she has plenty of BMI to burn off first.  Might take a while.


  :dunno:  
Bobby Sands hung on for three months; she'd probably last until a summer funeral, which suits me since there's more chance I'd miss the news while vacationing.  

But since she's pounding back the BoostTM I doubt there's any funerals to be worried about soon.



Although, does _anyone_ believe the attention-whore would carry on if her weight dropped below a critical 250lb mark?  Me neither


----------



## larry Strong (31 Dec 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> But since she's pounding back the BoostTM I doubt there's any funerals to be worried about soon.



I have seen that mentioned numerous times, yet I can't find any reference! Where is that coming from?


Thanks
Larry


----------



## Journeyman (31 Dec 2012)

My initial post (with all the gravity Chief Spencer and this thread warrant) said "if" but I changed it to "since" -- perhaps I should have left it; I too have seen multiple references to the Boost, but nothing in hindsight I would deem credible. (Again, a dubious term, given the topic)

Given that this is posted in "The Mess," and even those with a Germanic sense of humour should see as mocking, I'll let my post stand.


----------



## larry Strong (31 Dec 2012)

Thanks JM, I was just trying to nail it down. I have seen this mentioned on different sites as well, and has tweaked my curiosity.


Happy New Year
Larry


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Dec 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :dunno:
> Bobby Sands hung on for three months; she'd probably last until a summer funeral, which suits me since there's more chance I'd miss the news while vacationing.
> 
> But since she's pounding back the BoostTM I doubt there's any funerals to be worried about soon.
> ...



If she is pounding back boost, it's not a hunger strike.


----------



## Stoker (31 Dec 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> If she is pounding back boost, it's not a hunger strike.



Hell she's drinking Fish and Moose Broth as well, highly nutritious.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Dec 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Hell she's drink Fish and Moose Broth as well, highly nutritious.



I see the media is doing its job.....where are the "medical experts" who can debunk this BS being fed to us? Ph to do that would be......

Racist, right? :facepalm:


----------



## Stoker (31 Dec 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I see the media is doing its job.....where are the "medical experts" who can debunk this BS being fed to us? Ph to do that would be......
> 
> Racist, right? :facepalm:



Posted some comments on the idle no more face book site about the fact she's drinking broths and how can they call it a "hunger strike", immediately deleted of course.


----------



## my72jeep (31 Dec 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Posted some comments on the idle no more face book site about the fact she's drinking broths and how can they call it a "hunger strike", immediately deleted of course.


Of course can't have the whiteman derail the train.


----------



## PJGary (31 Dec 2012)

I'm on a hunger strike! buuuut...I'm kinda eating.... SEE ME HARPER I'M HUNGRY. 

Complete BS. And the comment she made to CBC about how (either one of two things cause she's not the most articulate flower in the garden).

#1: If she was the leader of another country and asked to see the PM he would see her quickly. (But you're not, even close)
#2: If it was another country and she asked to see the leader, she would be met with hastily. (Also no, and in some countries they'd probably just have you executed.)

Life sucks when you realize you're just a whiny nobody on a hunger strike diet.


----------



## Old Sweat (1 Jan 2013)

I just picked this up form APTN.ca via National Newswatch. The story, or maybe a press release disguised as a story, is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act. 



First Nations chiefs contemplate “breach of treaty” declarations, indefinite economic disruptions

National News | 01. Jan, 2013 by APTN National News 

By Jorge Barrera
APTN National News

 First Nations leaders have discussed plans to launch country-wide economic disruptions by the middle of January if Prime Minister Stephen Harper doesn’t agree to hunger-striking Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence’s demand for a treaty meeting, APTN National News has learned.

During three days of meetings and teleconferences, chiefs from across the country discussed a plan setting Jan. 16 as the day to launch a campaign of indefinite economic disruptions, including railway and highway blockades, according to two chiefs who were involved in the talks who requested anonymity.

“The people are restless, they are saying enough is enough,” said one chief, who was involved in the discussions. “Economic impacts are imminent if there is no response.”

Chiefs were still finalizing details of their plans Monday evening and it remained unclear to what extent their discussed options would translate into the official position.

Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo is expected to write Harper a letter outlining the chiefs’ position.

Spence launched her hunger strike on Dec. 11 to force a meeting between Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Governor General David Johnston and First Nations leaders to discuss the state of the treaties. Spence said in a statement issued Monday that the aim of the meeting was to “re-establish” the treaty relationship and finally put First Nations people in their “rightful place back here in our homelands that we all call Canada.”

The plan of action comes as the Idle No More movement continues to sweep across the country through round dances, rallies along with highway and rail blockades.

The Tyendinaga Mohawks briefly blockaded a main CN rail line between Toronto and Montreal Sunday, stranding about 2,000 Via Rail passengers. The Mi’kmaq from the Listuguj First Nation, Que., continue to hold a rail blockade on a CN line along with members of the Aamjiwnaang First Nation who have shut a CN line in Sarnia, Ont. In British Columbia, the Seton Lake Indian Band ended a rail blockade on Sunday.

How the chiefs’ action plan will mesh with the Idle No More movement remains to be seen. Idle No More organizers issued a statement Monday that distanced the movement from the chiefs.

“The chiefs have called for action and anyone who chooses can join with them, however, this is not part of the Idle No More movement as the vision of this grassroots movement does not coincide with the visions of the leadership,” said the statement, posted on the Idle No More Facebook page. “While we appreciate the individual support we have received from chiefs and councillors, we have been given a clear mandate by the grassroots to work outside the systems of government and that is what we will continue to do.”

One of the chiefs involved in action plan discussion said the leadership wanted to be sensitive to the grassroots-driven movement and make clear that their plans are being developed in support and as a response to Idle No More.

“Chiefs are standing firm in support of Idle No More and grassroots citizens,” said the chief. “We now need to unify.”

The meetings and teleconferences included between 50 to 60 chiefs from British Columbia to the Maritimes, according to the sources.

During the discussions, some First Nations leaders suggested individual communities and treaty regions issue “breach of treaty” declarations beginning Jan. 1 and leading up to Jan. 16. Aside from blockades, chiefs discussed stepping up rallies at MP’s offices, continuing letter campaigns and launching Twitter bombs.

“All we are doing is reasserting our own sovereign right and inherent right within this treaty,” said a second chief, who was also involved in the discussions. “The time has come that they need to see we are a sovereign entity, we have and always will be because of the relationship of treaty that was entered into by the Crown and numerous nations.”

There are also plans to hold ceremonies and vigils in Ottawa between Jan. 10 and 13 in support of Spence, who entered into day 21 of her hunger strike on New Year’s Eve.

“Those are going to be in response, either to a response from the prime minister, or to prepare for a potential and imminent impact on Canada’s economy as a result,” said one of the chiefs.

The chief, however, stressed that the leadership is taking their direction from grassroots citizens who are tired of the state of things.

“Our people are growing frustrated, they are tired of the impoverished conditions and mining companies coming to our treaty territories to take what is left,” said the chief. “What we are now seeing is our grassroots citizens are saying enough is enough.”


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Jan 2013)

When one of our inmates declares he is n a hung strike, we place him in medical in a suicide smock on suicide watch. Why should she be any different? 

EDIT: Let's not get too personal.
Bruce


----------



## Journeyman (1 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> press release disguised as a story


 "Journalism" at its finest.   :nod:


----------



## George Wallace (1 Jan 2013)

What exactly is she protesting in the Bill?  It covers a wide range of topics, affecting all Canadians, including members of the CF

Bill C-45:   http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521

Portion of Bill C-45 pertaining to the Indian Act:  http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521&File=194

Portion of Bill C-45 pertaining to Fisheries:   http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521&File=125

Portion of Bill C-45 pertaining to Navigable Waters Protection Act:   http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521&File=344

Does she even know what exactly she is protesting?


















(Portion of Bill C-45 pertaining to the CF:  http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521&File=539)


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What exactly is she protesting in the Bill?  It covers a wide range of topics, affecting all Canadians, including members of the CF
> 
> Bill C-45:   http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=5942521
> 
> ...



What does this mean in layman's terms for CF members?


I've seen a lot of talk about the environment and "selling out to China".  How accurate is that? Is it just Hyperbole?
What's up with China and mining companies up north?


----------



## George Wallace (1 Jan 2013)

"Idle No More"

Interesting PR gaffe.  It suggests that they were idle to begin with.  Quite a negative connotation.  






 >


----------



## GAP (1 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I've seen a lot of talk about the environment and "selling out to China".  How accurate is that? Is it just Hyperbole?
> What's up with China and mining companies up north?


.
Investment Capital.....we don't have enough, they have lots.....


----------



## Stoker (1 Jan 2013)

I see now that the "movement" are distancing themselves from the Chiefs now because they say the Chiefs are out of touch with the people.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/01/idle-no-more-founders-distance-themselves-from-chiefs/


----------



## Bluebulldog (2 Jan 2013)

Interesting.

Theresa Spence is on a hunger strike, in protest to omnibus bill C45, which really doesn't do much on the Indian Act except cut out red tape should a Band want to lease to outside interests....something that has mired any development for years. DeBeers has entered into contracts with Attiwapiskat to the tune of around $40M, but it took years to broker.

She's on a hunger strike, yet is documented as drinking medicinal teas, fish and moose broth. ( No docs could be found that she's drinking boost)....so in fact, she's on a diet?....there are a lot of people who do what she's doing at this time of the year...it's called cleansing.....but ok. Another poster had it right, at the rate she's going, the so-called "hunger strike" could last for years.........and yet some people are calling her a modern day Ghandi?

Ms. Spence conveniently went on her protest at a time when she was in the centre of a growing controversy over where her band has spent millions in transfer payments since 2006. Which as of Dec 2012 amounted to $131,000,000.00 for a community of 1549. Her own people were afraid to speak out to the press, fearing repercussions. After viewing her bands financials as they have been reported for the last 6 years, I can safely say that if this were a Municipality, someone would be charged under the Municipal Act. 

Hunger Strike = Misdirection. The fact that so many other bleeding hearts buy it hook line and sinker is a sad commentary on the state of peoples awareness.


----------



## Scott (2 Jan 2013)

Best synopsis I have read yet.

Like a true bully, she feels she has to be gobbing off to cover her own BS. She does it well and, sadly, others have bought into her rhetoric.


----------



## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

There's definitely a lot of mismanagement going on in Attiwapiskat. Just before they declared the housing crisis they shipped in a brand new Zamboni for their brand new arena : That and Chief Spence drives a Cadillac Escalade in a community with no roads to the outside.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Jan 2013)

Are you effin serious??  a Caddy??


----------



## George Wallace (2 Jan 2013)

There is a road to the De Beers mine.  Perhaps it if for "appearances"?


----------



## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Are you effin serious??  a Caddy??



It does have 4x4


----------



## my72jeep (2 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> That and Chief Spence drives a Cadillac Escalade in a community with no roads to the outside.


There is the Ice road 2.5 months out of the year she can drive to Moosnee or to Kesashit.


----------



## Bluebulldog (2 Jan 2013)

Let's not even get into the fact that she appointed her common law husband as Band Manager.........nepotism at it's finest......but just a wee bit of conflict of interest. I wonder what he drives?

So many of her band mates are living 3 families to a constructon trailer, or in shacks that are tarped....and she's drving an Escalade.....


----------



## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Let's not even get into the fact that she appointed her common law husband as Band Manager.........nepotism at it's finest......but just a wee bit of conflict of interest. I wonder what he drives?
> 
> So many of her band mates are living 3 families to a constructon trailer, or in shacks that are tarped....and she's drving an Escalade.....



I guess from the interviews I have seen with some of the residents from the reserve, it is common that members of the band council look after their family's first with the best jobs, best housing and the other no so lucky get the scraps. This is unfortunately happening on other reserves as well. 

They do have a lot of problems, but most of them are their own making with mismanagement. They need to take responsibility for their own actions.


----------



## Scott (2 Jan 2013)

Stupid question then: why have they not voted her out? Is it a case of her having more numbers on her side? I'm serious. If enough families are supposedly living 2-3 to a construction trailer while she drives her Caddy then voting her out would be a no brainer. 

Or do we go back to the fact that she's a bully and trust that she coerces and threatens those that do not tow the line?


----------



## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Stupid question then: why have they not voted her out? Is it a case of her having more numbers on her side? I'm serious. If enough families are supposedly living 2-3 to a construction trailer while she drives her Caddy then voting her out would be a no brainer.
> 
> Or do we go back to the fact that she's a bully and trust that she coerces and threatens those that do not tow the line?



Who knows, I suspect in some cases its a matter if you don't vote for me you don't get band funds for your house or whatever.  The communities in Labrador are famous for that, people get their votes bought. You're right though, vote her out.


----------



## Jed (2 Jan 2013)

Another stupid question: Why hasn't the Mainstream media brought the interesting and relavent, conflict of interest, information to light?


----------



## Stoker (2 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Another stupid question: Why hasn't the Mainstream media brought the interesting and relavent, conflict of interest, information to light?



Its out there to a certain extent. The problem is that its been happening for so long its accepted. The fact that its an Aboriginal problem makes it a sensitive issue politically and no one wants to deal with it.


----------



## larry Strong (2 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Its out there to a certain extent. The problem is that its been happening for so long its accepted. The fact that its an Aboriginal issue its a very sensitive politically and no one has the intestinal fortitude to deal with it.




TFTFY

Larry


----------



## Scott (2 Jan 2013)

I think it's because the INM proponents have figured out that bluster sells quicker than clear and quiet facts. Chief Spence seems to have that one down pat as well.


----------



## Bluebulldog (2 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Another stupid question: Why hasn't the Mainstream media brought the interesting and relavent, conflict of interest, information to light?



They have. Including the deal made with the DeBeers mine. However mainstream media seems to also be influenced heavily by public opinion. So far the only non-partisan national paper I've seen has been the G&M. The Star, is obviously so far left that they are indeed the ones holding Chief Spence up like the next Ghandi, and have indicated that the bands financial issues are the Federal Govts fault. The National Post has gone so far as to print articles that are authored by a non-practicing lawyer named Chelsea Vowel, who is not only a native rights blogger, but has her own interpretation of the Indain Act.

The band website has published everything with transparency, but they have been reprimanded by their auditor for questionable entries, incomplete entries, on their financials. The Govt is at a loss to explain where the taxpayer dollars went because the statements reconcile everything under broad based account lines like "Community Development, Administration, etc" 

Over the past 6 years, the band has received $131 million from the Feds, and $40 million from DeBeers. $171M adds up to just over $110,000 per person on the reserve. But obvioulsy it isn't making its way down.

The current "protest" is just a smoke and mirrors job to divert public attention from the quagmire that is Attiwapiskat. 

The sad irony is that Chief Spence is living in the Ottawa region in a Teepee, so she may be able to empathize with her people left on the reserve whenever she makes her way back. Perhaps it's convenient that Chief Spence went on her "Hunger Strike" diet, just as the cold weather hit, and her band mates were faced with yet another winter with inadequate housing.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> They have. Including the deal made with the DeBeers mine.



If I remember correctly, this was featured on CBC (or was it CTV) last year where a whole documentary was done on the housing shortage and the number of houses that DeBeers donated to the town/Reserve, as well as the building of a sewer system and other infrastructure, also built/donated to the Reserve by DeBeers.  Also documented on that program was the building of community facilities that were built and the problems associated with them.


----------



## Bluebulldog (2 Jan 2013)

Indeed it was.

Funny, what my civvy career is, i actively scanned their financials for any monies earmarked for capital renewal projects, or maintenance repair work.....and found none. Evidently responsible management practices, and planning is a task better suited to other communities. What it appears to be is that they simply build facilities, and then do nothing in the way of maintenance / repair, until they become unfit to occupy, then declare an emergency so you can get more Provincial / Federal dollars.


----------



## Old Sweat (2 Jan 2013)

The link to the Chelsea Vowel oped in the National Post referred to above is here.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/12/31/chelsea-vowel-assimilation-is-not-the-answer-to-the-aboriginal-problem/#comment-752015247

What is interesting is the range of comments, which are well above the standard we usually see in the G&M and the Star. The opinions expressed cover a wide specturm. In my opinion, the first comment has captured the crux of the dilemma.


----------



## Bluebulldog (2 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The link to the Chelsea Vowel oped in the National Post referred to above is here.
> 
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/12/31/chelsea-vowel-assimilation-is-not-the-answer-to-the-aboriginal-problem/#comment-752015247
> 
> What is interesting is the range of comments, which are well above the standard we usually see in the G&M and the Star. The opinions expressed cover a wide specturm. In my opinion, the first comment has captured the crux of the dilemma.



Actually Miss Vowel has authored several pieces used by the National Post. The one directly speaking to Attiwapiskat was a year ago, and was mistakenly published by another of their writers under the letters / full comment section. But this one is interesting as well.

I find it galling that a national paper would be giving copy space to a person who basically is a professional "pot stirrer". Miss Vowel is a native rights blogger who lives in Montreal. She is also an admitted member of the idle no more movement. Yet none of this is published by the paper as a byline, it would help the reader make more informed decisions if they knew where the source.


----------



## Robert0288 (2 Jan 2013)

Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.

http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html



Now there's a pile of stuff I didn't know. If the media followed up on even three of the allegations, if true, the wheels would fly right off of the _Audit No More  _ movement. However, I feel E Levant is correct. The media would rather crucify PM Harper than find the truth.

And yes, the signatures do look identical, IMO.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html



Wow


----------



## JorgSlice (3 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html



Oh this is golden. If only more people across the country would care to watch this and see what a farce this whole ordeal is.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html



So?  According to Treaty #9, Chief Theresa Spence is the one breaking the Treaty.


----------



## Armymedic (3 Jan 2013)

There is a reason why the "real" INM movement organizers want to distance themselves from the Chiefs, and specifically "Mayor" Spence.

The people realise that the Chiefs are just politicians of a different stripe and part of the problem.


----------



## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Here is a video from Ezra Levant in case anyone wants to watch it.
> 
> http://ezralevant.com/2013/01/fact-checking-a-hunger-strike.html



Wow, watched all 29:15 minutes of it.

This segment needs to go viral, fast....


----------



## Scott (3 Jan 2013)

That's one of the best segments Levant has ever done. Cue the catcalls of him being a racist.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

Interesting his linking the Idle No More movement to the Occupy movement along with Unions and other "professional" protesters.


----------



## Strike (3 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> That's one of the best segments Levant has ever done. Cue the catcalls of him being a racist.



Were you reading my Facebook thread? Already had one of my friends posting that!

Mind you, as far as I know, Idle No More and Chief Spence are not associated, even if the timing suggests they are.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (3 Jan 2013)

Well, hopefully this is a start.....

Article Link

First Nation blockade in Sarnia coming down

A nearly two-week long First Nation blockade of a railway line in Sarnia, Ont., was being dismantled Wednesday night just hours after an Ontario judge ruled that it must come down.

Lawyers for CN Rail launched court action against Ron Plain, a member of the Aamjiwnaang First Nation, alleging that he was in contempt of an injunction to disband the protests on the railway tracks.

The court injunctions were issued on Dec. 21 and 27 and granted police the power to end the blockade to their discretion.

CN also filed a motion for Sarnia Police Chief Phil Nelson to appear Wednesday before a judge to explain what the force was doing about the protest.

Protesters with the Aamjiwnaang First Nation set up the blockade last month to denounce the federal government's omnibus Bill C-45, which they claim eliminates treaty and aboriginal rights set out in the Constitution.

CN spokesman Jim Feeny said Wednesday night that the blockade was being removed and once that was complete, railway crews would go in to inspect the track and signals.

Following his court appearance, Plain had said that there were no plans to disband the blockade, but Wednesday night he said the group was leaving after holding a ceremony.

The group alleges the railway tracks were not laid down legitimately.

The Sarnia blockade is one of several actions being taken across the country as part of an aboriginal movement known as Idle No More.

The blockade was in support of Attiwapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, who has been on a hunger strike in Ottawa since Dec. 11 demanding a meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

Spence hopes that her strike will bring attention to aboriginal issues and secure her a meeting with Harper and the Governor General.

Sarnia Mayor Mike Bradley had said he was concerned that there might not be a peaceful resolution to the blockade, admitting he was worried patience for the blockade was running out.

"As every day goes by, concern about tensions is rising because there is an economic impact. It's having a negative impact here on industry," said Bradley.

The Sarnia police had said its officers would not disband the blockade unless it posed a safety risk.
-----------------------

Part of the problem is the last sentence; safety risk?  FML, if I go and block the local railroad with some buddies, how long will it take for me to be arrested?  Fuck I hate double standards.  I liked the part in the article that says CN filed a motion to have teh Sarnia Police Chief up in front of the judge to explain where his nads are.

I almost laugh every time I see a picture of these Idle No More groups, who are sitting around...blocking traffic and trains and whatnot.  How about being Idle No More literally, and going to work like most Canadians do?  Fucktards.

 :


----------



## Scott (3 Jan 2013)

That's what is hilarious - the efforts of Chief Spence might just be the undoing of any advances INM could make. I'm sure there are more than a few within the movement who aren't happy with her right now. 

INM seems to be a movement of many. The "hunger strike" focuses on one...I wonder why? 

I saw those comments, Strike, but refuse to debate anything on Facebook because it's utterly fucking useless. At least when the trolls make their way from rabble.ca over to here we have some pretty keen folks who can tear them apart. Not that I didn't enjoy the commentary of one semi famous army.ca member... >


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2013)

I went on youtube and searched for Sarnia police. 3rd video hit  highlights why the Sarnia police didn't remove the illegal roadblock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLUVzZ2qL0E


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

In anyone wants to help out :



Items/donations needed for Chief Spence's camp on Victoria Island
by IPSMO on Wednesday, January 2, 2013 at 9:52pm ·

Below is a list of items needed at Chief Spence’s camp on Victoria Island, Ottawa, Algonquin Territory.



Chief Theresa Spence of the Attawapiskat First Nation, has been on a hunger strike since December 11th to bring to the awareness of Canadians and especially the Prime Minister and the Queens representative, the Governor General, the violations and ignoring of Treaties signed with First Nations which have led to the poverty of First Nations Peoples and exploitation of their land for the benefit of a few. To date, Prime Minister Stephen Harper has not responded to Chief Theresa Spence's demand.



    Bottled water.

    Clear Garbage Bags for clothes.

    long-johns, skirts, socks, hats, scarfs.

    WOOD!

    tobacco.

    Eggs.

    Canned Goods.

    Moose, Deer, or Fish.

    Stove Pipe coming out of top of Tipi catching Fire need a modification.

    Cooler.

    blankets.

    stapler.

    flags.

    Canvas for shelter.

    gloves.

    Boots (Size 12)

    Toothpaste.

    Money for gas.

    SHOW OF SUPPORT!



You can donate and delivery these items directly to Victoria Island, if you live in Ottawa.

Or you can drop items off at Venus Envy (320 Lisgar St, 613-789-4646) and they will deliver everything to the camp this Friday evening.



If you can't make it to Victoria Island:



We asked the helpers at the camp for a bank account where people can donate gas money to. But there is none. So, we set up a temporary Paypal account for people who would like to donate money. This is the link:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=3LSAV8AFQST6W



We (IPSMO) will then issue a cheque to one of the responsible people at the camp. If you don't have a credit card to make a paypal donation, you can make a cheque payable to IPSMO with "to go to Chief Theresa Spence Camp" in the memo line and send it to

    IPSMO

    c/o OPIRG-GRIPO Ottawa
    631 King Edward Ave. (3rd floor / 3ieme étage)
    Ottawa, ON K1N 7N8
    Algonquin Territory


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

Ummm?

Chief/Mayor Spence makes more in a month than I do in a year.  Why would I need to donate to her cause?

And why would she want the following during a hunger strike:



> Eggs.
> 
> Canned Goods.
> 
> Moose, Deer, or Fish.




???


----------



## Eye In The Sky (3 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ummm?
> 
> Chief/Mayor Spence makes more in a month than I do in a year.  Why would I need to donate to her cause?



To draw attention away from how much she actually makes?  Appearance is everything!


----------



## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2013)

Her and her husband make more than 200K why are they looking for so much in the way of support?

In particular, why does somone on a hunger strike need eggs, canned goods, moose, deer, or fish?

Good grief....not only is she still fat after 21 days of hunger strike, but her feet are huge and swollen to size 12?

Why does this not jive?


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

Someone should go down there and hand out copies of her Band Payroll to passersby.


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Her and her husband make more than 200K why are they looking for so much in the way of support?
> 
> In particular, why does somone on a hunger strike need eggs, canned goods, moose, deer, or fish?
> 
> ...



I would say its all for her entourage.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

I would suggest that her "entourage" use their own funds (likely have more than most, or are otherwise subsidized anyway) and go to Mickey D's.  I am sure that they are probably regulars at a local brasserie in Gatineau already.




			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I would say its all for her entourage.



And they all wear: 





> Boots (Size 12)



(Here comes the Bill Cosby as Noah talking to God voice   RIGHT!?!


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would suggest that her "entourage" use their own funds (likely have more than most, or are otherwise subsidized anyway) and go to Mickey D's.  I am sure that they are probably regulars at a local brasserie in Gatineau already.



I wonder what the area will look like when they move out, I bet it won't look pretty.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2013)

Not much on that list that jives with their ancestral\ traditional way of life.

Shouldn't they be hunting and fishing for their food? Making their own clothing?

Christ, they can't even set up a teepee without setting it on fire :

And how many more donation bank accounts are going to get opened that can't be scrutinized? So far this will make two, I think, just for Spence's group alone.


----------



## The_Falcon (3 Jan 2013)

I posted Ezra's video, with my own commentary, and links to some of the stuff he highlighted (the treaty, band financials) on my FB.  Some people have already begun to repost (so far the financials).  Here's hoping the attention she wanted backfires in her face.


----------



## Journeyman (3 Jan 2013)

The Ezra Levant video is excellent. I generally have only marginal time for him, because he tends to be merely the opposite side of the "media party" coin he lambastes. But in this case, he's done some very informative research. Shame few Canadians will likely see this.

For those with short attention spans, fast-forward to the 20 minute mark and just listen to the final 10 minutes.


----------



## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1JWTotEc_XA

A buddy just sent me another one of Ezra Lavant's opinion pieces.

I have to admit, before today, I never watched the guy....but his stock is rising with me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2013)

Now we're getting to the crux, and more info backing up E Levant's Idle\Occupy link.

http://www.genuinewitty.com/2013/01/03/idlenomore-the-soros-anarchists-behind-the-scene-at-the-sarnia-rail-blockade/


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Now we're getting to the crux, and more info backing up E Levant's Idle\Occupy link.
> 
> http://www.genuinewitty.com/2013/01/03/idlenomore-the-soros-anarchists-behind-the-scene-at-the-sarnia-rail-blockade/



Was coming here to post that very link but was beat to it.  Interesting times we live in...


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Jan 2013)

Question:

Are we going to see an insurgency here? 

According to insurgency doctrine (from the 90s) we are seeing a rise in civil disobedience with traffic blockades etc.

The next phase is actively attacking police stations etc to show that the government is weak and cannot protect the public.

Are we there yet?

Edited - I am deeply disappointed in the Idle No More Movement. I thought they might seek gainful employment, alas this is not happening. :facepalm:


----------



## George Wallace (3 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Now we're getting to the crux, and more info backing up E Levant's Idle\Occupy link.
> 
> http://www.genuinewitty.com/2013/01/03/idlenomore-the-soros-anarchists-behind-the-scene-at-the-sarnia-rail-blockade/



If this were a movie, the Link Diagram at the bottom of this article would be a targetting list that one would send to Jason Statham as "The Mechanic".    >


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Question:
> 
> Are we going to see an insurgency here?
> 
> ...



I don't know if the government has the political will to really do anything aggressive against the protesters. We seen it many times with road blocks and the like, usually started by the Mohawks. If the roadblocks continue will the government do something? It will be interesting to see.


----------



## kratz (3 Jan 2013)

I do not read SUN media articles often, but this one does publicize more information than most MSM reagrding the Chief's diet.



> 'Idle No More' protests sparked by chief's 'diet.' It's not a hunger strike
> By Lorne Gunter ,QMI Agency
> First posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 07:37 PM MST | Updated: Thursday, January 03, 2013 10:39 AM MST
> 
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2013)

Another chart showing the web these anarchist people belong to.

http://www.genuinewitty.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/flagpole-alex-relationships-5.png

Mohawk Warriors, Unions and media. Hmmmmm


----------



## Remius (3 Jan 2013)

I believe that there are valid concerns that need addressing but, these groups and these people distract from it all.  just like at the G20, G8, Occupy etc.  Some legitimate beefs and people using legitimate forms of protest but they get drowned out by louder dolts that muddle the message and end up smashing stuff.


----------



## Jed (3 Jan 2013)

So when will the Mainstream Media wake up and see the obvious and get off their pet hobby horse 'Anything against the current Harper Government' meme? So many everyday folks are duped by all this 'unethical and unprofessional journalism.


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

I honestly think until they leave the reserves behind they'll always be on the fringes of Canadian society. Throwing millions of dollars at them is not going to fix their problems and we can't give them back their land.


----------



## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I honestly think until they leave the reserves behind they'll always be on the fringes of Canadian society. Throwing millions of dollars at them is not going to fix their problems and we can't give them back their land.



 :goodpost:

I agree.   :nod:


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jan 2013)

They should integrate with the rest of Canadian Society. Leave the reserves behind. That doesn't mean get rid of their traditional way of life if they choose.

Places like attawapiskat are unsustainable though.


----------



## ModlrMike (3 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> So when will the Mainstream Media wake up and see the obvious and get off their pet hobby horse 'Anything against the current Harper Government' meme? So many everyday folks are duped by all this 'unethical and unprofessional journalism.



The day after the government changes hands?


----------



## my72jeep (3 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> They should integrate with the rest of Canadian Society. Leave the reserves behind. That doesn't mean get rid of their traditional way of life if they choose.
> 
> Places like attawapiskat are unsustainable though.


Attawapiskat in not their native lands they were moved there by the Fur Company's.
1. As cheep labour.
2. As hunters.
3. As a way to keep other fur company's away from there.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (3 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I honestly think until they leave the reserves behind they'll always be on the fringes of Canadian society. Throwing millions of dollars at them is not going to fix their problems and we can't give them back their land.



You're not the first one to say it, and you won't be the last. But, that would mean all those chiefs would find themselves out of a job, hence, it will never happen.


----------



## my72jeep (3 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> You're not the first one to say it, and you won't be the last. But, that would mean all those chiefs would find themselves out of a job, hence, it will never happen.


And the Majority of the band will need to find Jobs also.


----------



## Stoker (3 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> You're not the first one to say it, and you won't be the last. But, that would mean all those chiefs would find themselves out of a job, hence, it will never happen.



I have a few good friends that are in the military who are aboriginals. They are level headed people who have integrated well into society off the reserve. They still have their beliefs and even practice them on the ship IE smudging, pow wows. It boggles my mind when people would rather live in squalor in some unheated shack somewhere instead of taking responsibility for themselves and succeed. A few take advantage of free/subsidized education, preferential hiring but many don't, its a crying shame.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I have a few good friends that are in the military who are aboriginals. They are level headed people who have integrated well into society off the reserve. They still have their beliefs and even practice them on the ship IE smudging, pow wows. It boggles my mind when people would rather live in squalor in some unheated shack somewhere instead of taking responsibility for themselves and succeed. A few take advantage of free/subsidized education, preferential hiring but many don't, its a crying shame.




 It boggles my mind when people would rather live on the pogey in a small town somewhere instead of taking responsibility for themselves and succeed.


There are plenty of folks outside the first nations communities who are doing exactly the same thing - I recall reading about some communities in the Maritimes where foreign workers are brought in to do things like work at Timmies- since none of the locals are willing to do it.


----------



## ballz (4 Jan 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are plenty of folks outside the first nations communities who are doing exactly the same thing - I recall reading about some communities in the Maritimes where foreign workers are brought in to do things like work at Timmies- since none of the locals are willing to do it.



That's the reason it's all Filipinos working at the Timmies in Corner Brook, NL haha... not cause there's not enough people unemployed to do the job that's for sure.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Jan 2013)

Which makes the new EI rules sensible and prudent. 

Don't want to work? You don't get paid.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I have a few good friends that are in the military who are aboriginals. They are level headed people who have integrated well into society off the reserve. They still have their beliefs and even practice them on the ship IE smudging, pow wows.



I'll second that.  I'm sure this sounds racist but if I was filling out a section and I had a choice from a variety of races I would pick a aboriginal first based solely off my experience.  Loyal to a fault, ultra hard working, mature, dependable, driven, honourable. Amazing soldiers.

I think the culture they are brought up in is that everyone is against them and they need to meet and exceed the perceived choler.

Just two examples I came across this week.
1. I was reading a fellows facebook page. He went to get some medication and his indian card would not work. he was convinced that the government was doing it on purpose. Like REALLY convinced. Him AND the other dozen plus posters who's card wouldn't work at the pharmacy for medication either. Harper wanted to kill them!  A day and a half of hatered later the system was back up and working and everything was fine.

2. A first nation woman was allegedly kidnapped in Thunderbay brought out to the woods sexually assaulted by two white guys and told that it was happening because of the blockades happening, it would happen again and native's do not deserve treaty rights or some shit like that.

In very short order accusations were leveled at the government for basically hiring thugs to kidnap this girl rape her and threaten her. Not a political entitiy- a 30 year old single mother.  The people making the accusations sounded like they whole hardheartedly believed this.

How can you heal the rift between cultures when THIS is the first reaction?


----------



## Bluebulldog (4 Jan 2013)

"I'm sure this sounds racist"

No, it sounds objective. Something missing from many peoples perspectives on things these days. Just point out a few of the facts about the whole INM movement, or Theresa Spence's convenient Hunger strike / diet / misdirection, and there will be no shortage of people out there calling you a racist. However, I have often been of the opinon that you should stick by your guns ( funny....me formerly in an Arty Rgt).

"How can you heal the rift between cultures when THIS is the first reaction?"

You cant. People who spend their lives mired in the past, and re-hashing past mis-deeds, or perceived slights never build a successful future. The Indian Act is greatly flawed, but it represents a way of life to those in power on the First Nations side, that would be disasterous to them should any real change occur. So most of what they do is simply political posturing.

It's tragic, almost to the point of comedy that the first reaction is almost conspiracy theory-esque. Yes the Harper Govt is trying to kill off sick Indians....good grief....how someone comes up with that while actually being allowed to walk around society is scary......unless their meds were anti-psychotics....in which case...carry on. Or that a crime against a woman, native or no, was perpetuated by the govt.....but wait and see what shakes out on that investigation.



Interesting story. My boss also instructs in building code, and was invited up to Moose Factory / Moosonee a few years back. He met some very nice reserve folks, and non reserve folks. He also got into construction costs while there, because they were so skewed. Here is what he was told.

The Feds will give say $3M in funding for housing. But being the Govt they typically will give it out over a period of time, say 3 years. The band then goes and gets financing from a bank or trust for the full amount to facilitate the projects. The finance company ( remember, it's a small area) then gives the loan, but dictates to the band who they will use for trades, transport, etc. All of this results in a house, that is essentially a pre-fab, built in say North Bay, and shipped flat packed. We worked out costs. Typically these homes are on concrete block pillars, and are a one level 24'x36' bungalow. Costs of actual construction? Around $120,000. Shipping? By flatbed semi, and then barge, including crane rental to put up the trusses $40,000. So $160,000. Yet by the time everyone in the chain has had their hand in the purse for their "share" that house is upwards of $250,000. So on one home, there is $90K of value not realized.........wonder where all that goes?

The Indian Act, and the reserve system needs an overhaul in the worst way possible. Real change needs to occur. I have been an advocate for years that they should be registered as Municipalities, and then much of the governance, and checks and balances would be in place.


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## Scott (4 Jan 2013)

Umm, then how could they have their cake and eat it, too? That seems to be point number one in all of these treaties.


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## Danjanou (4 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> That's the reason it's all Filipinos working at the Timmies in Corner Brook, NL haha... not cause there's not enough people unemployed to do the job that's for sure.



As I found out at Christmas same thing at the Timmies at Halifax International Airport. No locals were interested in commuting out there for "service industry minimum wage jobs" so they've imported  Filipinos who seem to have no issues with the wages or commute.


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## Rifleman62 (4 Jan 2013)

http://digital.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

National Post - 4 Jan 2013
    
*Chief gives Ottawa 72 hours 2*3

Misguided hunger strike is manufacturing dissent

PETER FOSTER Nobody would deny the desperate conditions on many native reserves. Most Canadians are genuinely concerned and frustrated at how little improvement has been brought by the billions spent. However, to imagine that problems of poverty, ill health and poor education are best addressed — let alone solved — by histrionic threats, social-mediated mob scenes or blocked roads or rail lines is dangerous delusion.

Chief Theresa Spence, who was previously best known for declaring states of emergency — arguably rooted in her own mismanagement — at her Attawapiskat reserve, is suddenly being treated as some combination of Martin Luther King and Aung San Suu Kyi. Celebrity moths, bleeding hearts and clamberers up the greasy political pole have sought to invest her “hunger strike,” which is now into its fourth week, with noble purpose.

In fact, her initial threat to starve herself to death failing a meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Governor General David Johnston suggested either a bizarre degree of narcissism, or revealed her as a witless puppet. Perhaps both.

Nevertheless, Chief Spence has obviously proved an embarrassment to mainstream native leadership, as has the recently unleashed Idle No More movement, with its dancing, drumming and transport blockades. On Thursday morning, Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo — in what appeared to be an attempt to seize back the “initiative” from Ms. Spence and the Idlers No More — revealed that he had sent an “urgent invitation” to the Prime Minister and the GG to meet with him on Jan. 24, the anniversary of last year’s Crown-First Nations gathering.

Although an urgent invitation obviously comes somewhere down the DEFCON scale from a hunger-strike-backed ultimatum, it is uncertain why the Prime Minister would want to commemorate a meeting that was so obviously a failure.

As for Idle No More, the title is profoundly ironic. One of the main problems for native people is the idleness that comes with living on remote reserves such as Attawapiskat in Northern Ontario. However, the Idle No More movement is not aimed at attracting more jobs. In fact, it opposes the very legal changes — contained in Bill C-45 — that would facilitate development, such as making the leasing of reserve land easier, and loosening draconian environmental regulation (a process started last year with Bill C-38). Thus the movement might more appropriately be named “Idle Some More.”

Chief Spence’s handlers have recently had her invoking the fact that “precious diamonds from my land grace the fingers and necklaces of Hollywood celebrities.” Presumably, her scriptwriters were aiming at dramatic contrast (and perhaps angling for a visit from James Cameron), but in fact development of such resources represents the only route out of dependence (and Attawapiskat has benefitted from the diamond developments to which Chief Spence referred).

The roots of aboriginal plight are not lack of goodwill on the part of Canadians, or even of political will on the part of the federal government. That plight is the legacy of failed policies past, and of resistance from native leaders to changes in accountability, transparency, education and property rights that would inevitably undermine their own power.

Mr. Harper has inevitably drawn opprobrium for his failure to respond personally to Chief Spence’s manufactured dissent. However, Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan has offered to meet with Chief Spence, which might be considered a significant score for anybody but an egomaniac.

Nevertheless, as the Post’s John Ivison noted on Thursday, the government should have done a better job of explaining that it has hardly been neglecting the aboriginal file. Merely to point out how many tens of millions have been shovelled into Attawapiskat since Mr. Harper came to power may suggest that money is neither the problem nor the answer, and seems intended to highlight inept local management, but more selling sizzle is needed in an age when the anti-development movement has proved so skillful at media and political manipulation.

It is also critical to temper aboriginal expectations. Consultation is essential, but the idea that First Nations can be “full partners” in resource development in the immediate future is patronizing nonsense for the simple reason that they lack what wonks like to call “capacity.” Similarly patronizing is the claim that native people may be able to bring some unique, spiritual input to environmental issues that are in fact matters of science and technology. Education is the answer to both problems, but the AFN walked out on negotiations over a new First Nations Education Act last October.

Unfortunately, there remain too many lawyers, consultants and academics in the “Aboriginal Industry” with a vested interest in what amounts — under the guise of preserving culture — to keeping natives in a kind of run-down Hunter Gatherer club. This industry claims that land-claims settlements and self-government are the cure, when in fact they are more like the main problem. But they will not simply go away.

The one power that frustrated aboriginals do have is to stop development, at the extreme with violence. That power is being eagerly cultivated by radical environmental NGOs of the type on which Prime Minister Harper and Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver drew a bead early in 2012.

Chief Atleo, when issuing his “urgent invitation,” noted that the First Nations were ready to do the “hard work” needed to achieve a better future. But the main task is how to bring real work to the reserves, or ease passage away from them. Any “dialogue” that doesn’t address those issues is going nowhere, as many may secretly wish.

Trending on Twitter is hardly a substitute for getting down to genuinely “hard work.” Meanwhile, if you want to see what ENGO anti-development Utopia looks like, go to any remote native reserve. Then imagine all transfers being withdrawn because there is no economy to pay for them.

_Vote for this story Well Written (33) Not Well Written (0)_

Photo Caption: SEAN KILPATRICK / THE CANADIAN PRESS Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, centre, is helped back to her teepee after meeting supporters in Ottawa Thursday, the 24th day of her hunger strike. (Whatever diet she is on is not working!)


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## Stoker (4 Jan 2013)

What a good article, hopefully more newspapers will report the truth on the "idle no more" BS.


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## jollyjacktar (4 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> As I found out at Christmas same thing at the Timmies at Halifax International Airport. No locals were interested in commuting out there for "service industry minimum wage jobs" so they've imported  Filipinos who seem to have no issues with the wages or commute.


That's because they've joined forces as a group and live/commute together to make it possible with the minimum wage job.


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## Edward Campbell (4 Jan 2013)

The _Globe and Mail_ is reporting that:

          _Mr. Harper will attend a meeting on Jan. 11 with Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan and a delegation of first nations leaders co-ordinated by the Assembly of First Nations.

          “This working meeting will focus on two areas flowing from [last year's] gathering: the treaty relationship and aboriginal rights, and economic development,” Mr. Harper said in a statement Friday morning._

My guess is that Chief Spence will not be "selected" by the AFN to attend that meeting and that the communiqué, already written by the PMO Communications (PR) staff I also guess, will not say very much.


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## Stoker (4 Jan 2013)

Well they're celebrating it as a victory over Harper on the idle no more face book page. If Chief Spence was smart she'll end the "hunger strike" now.

This the typical post over there.

"This is one step on the beginning of our movement. It makes me sick to see Harper taking all this time airing live on TV for Ford Auto Industry and announcing automobile innovation funding....but he can't take time to meet with Chief Spence and wait Til January 11th....this shows his support for big corporations that are ruining and destroying our lands, waters, resources,etc! He is a joke....he best wake up because we have just started!!!"


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## Bluebulldog (4 Jan 2013)

The Post's article was very good, and uncharacteristic for them, I'm impressed. IMO, it appears as if the swell of information and public outrage over the last few days, has begun to actually permeate the media, and they may be listening. Of course a media portraying a 4 week hunger strike, and a woman who remains rubenesque despite same.....may just call for some pointed questions.

Is it any wonder that when the PMs office announces on 4 Jan that it will meet in 7 days with the AFN, then drama-queen Spence issues a 72 hour ultimatum to the Federal Government?

She can sit quietly in her teepee downriver from where the grown ups are having their conversation. And when complete.....she'll have lost not only her already waning 15 minutes of fame, but public support as well. She can then pack up and go home and deal with the 3rd party management, and the ongoing f_^k ups that she has created.


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## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2013)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Well they're celebrating it as a victory over Harper on the idle no more face book page. If Chief Spence was smart she'll end the "hunger strike" now.
> 
> This the typical post over there.
> 
> "This is one step on the beginning of our movement. It makes me sick to see Harper taking all this time airing live on TV for Ford Auto Industry and announcing automobile innovation funding....but he can't take time to meet with Chief Spence and wait Til January 11th....this shows his support for big corporations that are ruining and destroying our lands, waters, resources,etc! He is a joke....he best wake up because we have just started!!!"



Sounds a bit threatening to me.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2013)

What was Spence's 72 hour ultimatum? I missed it.


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## Journeyman (4 Jan 2013)

:dunno:

I think maybe she was demanding that it better be three days from now in 72 hours....._or else_...

...or else...she'll wear *spandex*!!


She's a clown. The Liberals and NDP got their photo op and have moved on. The government is meeting with a First Nations' delegation -- pointedly, not her. If even the mainstream media is starting to dismiss her, you know this latest moment of fame is done -- for now, anyway.


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## larry Strong (4 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> What was Spence's 72 hour ultimatum? I missed it.



Basically amounted to "72 hours *or else*" 


Larry


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## Jungle (4 Jan 2013)

Another interesting development:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/03/documents-show-plenty-of-money-flowing-through-spences-reserve



> Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence's household made as much as $250,000 in the fiscal year ending March 2011.
> 
> As the leader of the remote northern Ontario reserve stages a hunger strike in Ottawa, demanding that Prime Minister Stephen Harper meet with her to discuss the third-world conditions in her community, documents show that plenty of cash is moving through the settlement.
> 
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2013)

> Financial audits show that while Spence was paid $71,377 as current chief, her partner, Clayton Kennedy, was also employed as the reserve's co-manager. Kennedy's consulting company, Moo Shum Enterprises Inc, charges $850 per day - working out to $221,000 per year.



lol
Donations are required eh 
You'd think at 71K tax free a year Spence could afford to buy her helpers some size 12 shoes.


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## Remius (4 Jan 2013)

Hmn, i don't know too many day care managers that make the equivalent of over 100K a year....

Maybe, just maybe, all this attention grabbing will shed some light on mismanagement etc on reserves and a REAL fix can be made.


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## Bluebulldog (4 Jan 2013)

I think the outcome of this will be quite more exposure than what Ms. Spence wants.

I have a vision of a burned out Escalade with a lovely snow scene in the background..........


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## Jed (4 Jan 2013)

Modern tribal warfare in its finest light.  >


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## dapaterson (4 Jan 2013)

And once we get transparency from first nations, we can see about getting the House of Commons and Senate to reveal their expenses to public scrutiny.


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## Rethink (4 Jan 2013)

In many ways Spence is like the typical corrupt politician or bureaucrat who preaches one thing, does the opposite and then throws up a sanctimonious smoke screen when the terrible truth starts seeping out.  The thing about Spence’s antics and those of her counterparts in the Native community that puts them in a class of their own is that their position at the trough depends on not only syphoning money that is badly needed in their communities but promoting a particularly harmful brand of segregation that ultimately is keeping people in Third World conditions even though they live in a sophisticated and relatively stable economy where opportunities to improve their situation are all around.   This myth that if they just believe fervently enough in the power of protest and put their faith in the leaders, they will be delivered to some kind of pre-industrial utopia is foolishness that is almost cult-like.   I’ve been a big advocate of integration into the mainstream economy for Canadian Natives.  It’s the only way that you can achieve stability and a decent standard of living.  I don’t think I’ve yet seen a movement that has succeeded in improving the conditions of its people by segregation.  It’s the reason, by the way, that conspiracy theories are running rampant.  I think someone mentioned this a little earlier in this thread – people thinking that Steven Harper is messing with their health cards or orchestrating assaults or similar things.  When you are isolated in your own corner, you lose the ability to objectively assess what’s going on around you and become more and more inclined to believe whatever stories you are fed.   I’m hoping that exposure of Spence’s adventures at the trough may lead to some rethinking on the part of people of who have been following her (and her counterparts’) dictates.  It will be interesting to see where this goes.


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## DBA (4 Jan 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And once we get transparency from first nations, we can see about getting the House of Commons and Senate to reveal their expenses to public scrutiny.



What specifically do you think is missing and should be disclosed? There is a fair bit already available.

Parliament of Canada - Board of Internal Economy - Member's Expenditures Reports
Parliament of Canada - Board of Internal Economy - Financial Statements of the House of Commons 
Senate of Canada - Financial Reports


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2013)

DBA said:
			
		

> What specifically do you think is missing and should be disclosed? There is a fair bit already available.



Why a town of 1500 needs a council of 21 members? Why people in that town are pulling in as administrators more than some doctors make in a year? You know, little details like that.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jan 2013)

I think DBA is talking about DAPatterson's comments about Fed Gov spending.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think DBA is talking about DAPatterson's comments about Fed Gov spending.



Misread, gotcha. Thanks.


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## Rifleman62 (4 Jan 2013)

http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/chief-spence-heads-to-hotel-to-shower-and-nap-is-that-where-shes-really-been-staying/

*Chief Spence heads to hotel “to shower and nap” – Is that where she’s really been staying?*

January 4, 2013 — BC Blue

On CBC’s The National, Adrienne Arsenault tried her best to spin after catching Chief Theresa Spence leaving  for a hotel yesterday:

“She’s sworn off solid foods but she’s far from allowing herself to being trapped on the island” –

Audio asking Spence:

“Just going to have a shower and a little lie down?” (see here 2:20 mark http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/watch/)

No questions about how much time Spence is really spending on the island in the tipi that we have been told many, many times  by the media she is staying (see here) nor does Arsenault follow her to see which hotel she went to and interview the hotel staff to find out how often they see her like a real investigative reporter would do.

The Media Party have their anti-Harper hero and are not going to do anything to ruin it.

h/t Nick Waters


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## a_majoor (4 Jan 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Another interesting development:
> 
> http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/03/documents-show-plenty-of-money-flowing-through-spences-reserve



Perhaps Spense and her partner might change their diet from broth to healthy, nutritious, prison food. While I doubt the well deserved criminal charges will ever be laid it is nice to contemplate....

As for the fact that Spense is staying in a hotel, why is anyone surprised? Many of the OWS leaders did that as well (a hilarious video exists of a crew filming an OWS encampment at night using an IR camera; most of the tents were empty), it is all about show and setting a "narrative", not reporting on the facts.


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## ModlrMike (4 Jan 2013)

So as I understand it, the crux of the problem is the deplorable state of housing on the reserve. That being the case, can someone explain to me how a housing program that has 2,031,000 in revenue manages only 60,512 in programme delivery? It wouldn't have anything to do with the 403,302 in administration or the 1,374,128 in wages?

Source: Consolidated Schedule of Programs


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## Strike (4 Jan 2013)

Guess we know what they need the donations for.


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## uptheglens (5 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Perhaps Spense and her partner might change their diet from broth to healthy, nutritious, prison food. While I doubt the well deserved criminal charges will ever be laid it is nice to contemplate....
> 
> As for the fact that Spense is staying in a hotel, why is anyone surprised? Many of the OWS leaders did that as well (a hilarious video exists of a crew filming an OWS encampment at night using an IR camera; most of the tents were empty), it is all about show and setting a "narrative", not reporting on the facts.



It used to be "All the news that's fit to print". Nowadays it's "All the news that fits our narrative, we print"


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## The_Falcon (5 Jan 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So as I understand it, the crux of the problem is the deplorable state of housing on the reserve. That being the case, can someone explain to me how a housing program that has 2,031,000 in revenue manages only 60,512 in programme delivery? It wouldn't have anything to do with the 403,302 in administration or the 1,374,128 in wages?
> 
> Source: Consolidated Schedule of Programs



Even better question, why are they spending $11 Million in total wages/Benefits across all programs, $5.5 Million in the Education Coloumn alone, PLUS another $4.8 Million in welfare payments.  And unless I am reading this wrong, according to schedule M, at the end of 2011 there was $57 Million sitting in a Capital Fund, and strangely enough, very little spent on infrastructure.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2013)

This article makes it sound like Spence's 'diet plan' (which appears to not be working if the picture is accurate  :blotto is the reason behind the 11 Jan meeting and while it says she is attending, it doesn't say she was invited.  

* Perhaps the PM should postpone the meeting several months, 25 days of hunger strike hotels and soup hasn't resulted in much loss of that unhealthy excessive weight Spence is carrying around.  We went with 'unschedules meals' for the 10 days of our BSERE course when I did it and I lost weight, in a hurry.  

Article Link

Spence to join Harper meeting with chiefs Jan. 11

Attawapiskat chief says she'll continue her hunger strike, now in its 25th day

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence says she will join a "working meeting" between Prime Minister Stephen Harper and a delegation of First Nations chiefs, but is not ready to give up her hunger strike.

Spence made the announcement from Victoria Island just north of Ottawa, where she has been conducting a hunger strike that is now in its 25th day.

"To all the supporters and the helpers, I'm really grateful today. I'm just really overjoyed .... to hear that the Crown and the prime minister and the governments, that they're going to meet with us Jan. 11th, but I'll still be here on my hunger strike until that meeting takes place," Spence said.

Spence said she would attend the meeting, but when asked whether it would be enough to end her hunger strike, she said she would wait to see the outcome.

"We'll see what the results are, if there's really a positive result, because there are a lot of issues that we need to discuss," Spence said.

Spence's spokesman, Danny Metatawabin, said Spence and her supporters want Gov. Gen. David Johnston and Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty at the meeting as well, and said the hunger strike could continue after Jan. 11.

The prime minister's office announced the meeting earlier Friday.

"This working meeting will focus on two areas flowing from the [2012 Crown-First Nations] Gathering: the treaty relationship and aboriginal rights and economic development," said a release issued Friday morning by the Prime Minister's Office. "While some progress has been made, there is more that must be done to improve outcomes for First Nations communities across Canada."

Speaking Friday near Toronto, Harper said the AFN will "determine the composition of their own delegation."

Asked about whether he's worried the Idle No More protests could get worse, Harper said Canadians expect everyone to obey the law while protesting. 

"People have the right in our country to demonstrate and express their points of view peacefully as long as they obey the law," he said.

Cornwall police issued a statement Friday saying they were closing the Seaway International Bridge crossing to the United States due to planned protests on Saturday morning that could cause possible disruptions and traffic delays. Sarnia police issued a similar warning for the Blue Water Bridge international crossing near Sarnia Saturday afternoon.

Spence calls situation 'a crisis'
Metatawabin said he cried when he heard the news of the meeting.      :boke:

"Tears started to come down my eyes and I had to hold off my tears because I wanted to share my tears with Chief Theresa and all the helpers that came to support her," Metatawabin told reporters at an Ottawa press conference earlier Friday.

Early Friday morning, a news release issued by Spence — who, despite frigid temperatures, remains camped out with her supporters on Victoria Island in the Ottawa River between downtown Ottawa and Gatineau, Que. — says that as the 25th day of her hunger strike begins, "her message is becoming more crucial."

"This is a crisis, and we cannot continue on this path of social indifference," Spence says in the release, reiterating her call for an "urgent" meeting on the implementation of treaties between First Nations and the Crown.

On Thursday, Spence's camp said a meeting needs to happen within 72 hours and suggested protests across Canada sympathetic to her cause could escalate.

Friday's statement quoted Metatawabin as saying the chief "cannot physically sustain her hunger strike" until Jan. 24, a meeting date proposed earlier by the AFN, which had been calling for Harper and Gov. Gen. David Johnston to meet with chiefs from across Canada on the first anniversary of their 2012 Crown-First Nations gathering.

Metatawabin says he visited Spence on Friday morning and "she's well, but you can tell her body is weak."

AFN National Chief Shawn Atleo and other regional chiefs from northern Ontario were on Victoria Island on Thursday, meeting with Spence in an apparent effort to broker some sort of compromise solution that could respond to demands without further endangering anyone's physical well-being. Atleo said little as he left, however, apparently unsuccessful in his efforts.

Resource-sharing at issue

Atleo has been meeting with officials from the prime minister's office behind the scenes in an effort to address not only Spence's hunger strike but the concerns of the Idle No More protest movement more generally.

Some involved with the movement have suggested theirs is a grassroots protest and the elected national chiefs cannot represent their interests because they are part of the system that has failed them in the past.

First Nations leaders are calling for resource-sharing arrangements so that they can share in profits from development around their land.

"If they're opening up a mine near your town, they have a duty under Ontario law, in this case, to be able to talk to your mayor and council ... no such thing for First Nations," Grand Chief Stan Louttit said.

"We can't just rely on impact benefit agreements that we're forced to negotiate. There needs to be a process in place where we get a piece of the pie, just like Ontario does, just like Canada does... we need to get part of that as well so that we can begin to prosper, so that we can get out of the poverty that we're in."

Results of audit expected soon

Asked about criticism over the salaries of Spence and the rest of the band council that in 2010-11 totalled $304,364, Louttit said the Attawapiskat council agreed to a comprehensive audit looking at all the funding that goes into the community and how it's spent.

The salaries that year ranged from $22,980 to $69,579 for Spence and covered 22 people who sat on the council for anywhere from one month to a full year.

Louttit says the audit is done and being reviewed by the Aboriginal Affairs Department and Health Canada, which provide the funding.

"If a comprehensive audit or an offer for a forensic audit is not sufficient for people, then I don't know what is. There's just that perception out there: 'There's little old Attawapiskat, 2,000 people, they get $60 million over five years, wow, I can't fathom that. That's a problem,'" Louttit said.

In reality, he said, everything in the North costs up to 20 times more and as much as half of the government funding goes to education.

"I've worked in that system for many, years and I can vouch for the fact that it is very, very difficult to do business in a remote community. Not like it is in Ottawa, not like it is in Timmins or anywhere else... but the average Canadian out there, they see millions and millions and they just get concerned and said, 'Hey, there's something going on there.' But I challenge those people, come to the community and look at the books and come and live there for a couple of weeks and you'll see," Louttit said.

Harper wouldn't say when the audit will be released.

Protests escalate

Spence is not alone on her hunger strike. Cross Lake, Man., elder Raymond Robinson has also gone without food since Dec. 11.

The CBC's Adrienne Arsenault reported that while Spence is weak and reporting some pain, she remains upbeat and takes a daily walk with her friends and supporters.

Arsenault said Robinson is not faring as well, telling her yesterday that he's lost more than 30 pounds and is having trouble standing up straight because of his pain. 

In a separate development, a release issued Friday morning by the Sikniktuk Mi'kmaq Rights Coalition in New Brunswick said the group has notified the RCMP that it plans to block CN Rail trains from transporting goods along the Highway 126 rail line in Adamsville, N.B., between now and Monday.

The release says the chosen location is a historical trading post where Mi'kmaq people bartered their handmade baskets for goods with local settlers.

Previously, Mi'kmaq protesters from Elsipogtog held a four-day traffic slow down along Highway 11. The group is calling for recent federal legislation to be abolished or stopped, saying it infringes on their treaty rights and human rights. 
------------------------------------

Weak?  In pain?  From what, the water was too hot in her shower at the hotel the other day??

 :  What a load of shyte, I am beyond tired of the CBC agenda-style reporting.


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## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

You should have heard Evan Solomon on CBC Radio this morning...

I'm not as worried as I might have been a week or more ago. Mainstream media (I do not consider the CBC a member of that group) is catching on and the CBC is going to look the same as they did with Vote Compass and their stance on videos shot at parties in Greenwood - like raving fucking idiots.

Beyond that, if INM isn't careful they are going to get dragged into Hurricane Spence which is nothing more than a self serving :trainwreck:


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## my72jeep (5 Jan 2013)

* Perhaps the PM should postpone the meeting several months, 25 days of hunger strike hotels and soup hasn't resulted in much loss of that unhealthy excessive weight Spence is carrying around.  We went with 'unschedules meals' for the 10 days of our BSERE course when I did it and I lost weight, in a hurry.

Yes Funny that I spent 15 days in the hospital in June was on Solid Food only 5 days rest was jello and IV fluids I lost 62lbs, 10lb of it was a body part, so the math says 50lb/10days=5lb per day. spence 25 days/5lb perday=125 lb lost Does she look like shes lost 125lb? Now I was laying in a bed doing nadda, Spence is active going for showers beating the drums chasing reporters. so really she should be losing 7lb a day.


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## Strike (5 Jan 2013)

My dad recently spent 3 weeks in hospital and lost 20 lbs while on solid food.  He's already mentioned that chief Spence doesn't look like she's lost any weight.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jan 2013)

Rethink said:
			
		

> I think someone mentioned this a little earlier in this thread – people thinking that Steven Harper is messing with their health cards or orchestrating assaults or similar things.  When you are isolated in your own corner, you lose the ability to objectively assess what’s going on around you and become more and more inclined to believe whatever stories you are fed.



Hi Rethink welcome to army.ca
That was myself.  I'm confident that if it was a Liberal leader as PM or NDP or whoever else we have available these people would still feel the same way. I understand what you mean by being isolated leads someone to loosing being able to be objective but I've seen the very same mentality from people who appeared connected socially (Involved in mainstream media, social media) that seem like smart people.  Maybe it could be more by rote.



> I’m hoping that exposure of Spence’s adventures at the trough may lead to some rethinking on the part of people of who have been following her (and her counterparts’) dictates.  It will be interesting to see where this goes.


It does seem like people are coming around.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jan 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> My dad recently spent 3 weeks in hospital and lost 20 lbs while on solid food.  He's already mentioned that chief Spence doesn't look like she's lost any weight.



Speaking from personal experience too the first place someone looses weight is in their face. I dropped 40 pounds in a very short amount of time and at one point it was a pound a day and that was just doing without pasta sugar and starch.  I was still eating (a lot of) meat protein shakes and a few other things.  She does not look like she lost a single pound. I'm no expert but shes been at this 20+ days? It's easy to see why people have doubts about her fasting.

I'm expecting proof in the form of a video or picture of her eating surfacing soon- where of course there will be a convenient excuse from her camp.
The same way the president of PETA explained she used insulin (derived from animal testing) so she could better protect the animals.


----------



## Jed (5 Jan 2013)

It is really unfortunate that Chief Spence, and to some extent the agenda driven media, have derailed the INM movement started by 4 women in Saskatchewan. This is similar to the way the Muslim Brotherhood morphed the Arab Spring grassroots movement in Eygpt.


----------



## Sythen (5 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm expecting proof in the form of a video or picture of her eating surfacing soon- where of course there will be a convenient excuse from her camp.



Isn't there already a video of her leaving a hotel? Where she was apparently just napping and taking a shower? Nothing like 5 star accommodations to bring attention to the housing crisis on her reserve!

http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/chief-spence-heads-to-hotel-to-shower-and-nap-is-that-where-shes-really-been-staying/

yea here it is.


----------



## GAP (5 Jan 2013)

And I am sure the room service bill will be for her followers, not her......


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

> She’s sworn off solid foods but she’s far from allowing herself to being trapped on the island



That's the biggest bunch of fucking garbage I have ever read. 

Next come the excuses about Chief Spence helping some aboriginal youth she just happened to see working behind the counter at KFC by ramming a bucket down her neck. It's still a hunger strike _in principal_ though.


----------



## Bass ackwards (5 Jan 2013)

On an Idle No More related thought, there's a bit of a kerfuffle brewing in central Manitoba over the slaughter of a dozen elk by natives. One of the hunters posted a video on Facebook and added that he was "doing his share to Idle No More".

Most of the news agencies are mentioning the slaughter and the investigation into it but are careful to not say that Indians did the shooting. 

The link here is to a sportsman's blog; I used it because it has a screen cap of the Facebook comments:

http://albertasportsman.com/alberta-big-game-hunting/elk-slaughter-duck-mountain-manitoba-december-2012/msg20532/#msg20532

If true, this is definitely not good PR for the INM movement...


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jan 2013)

YUP!

Facebook.   

Brilliant people who failed to enter the Darwin Awards post things like this.


----------



## 57Chevy (5 Jan 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Even better question, why are they spending $11 Million in total wages/Benefits across all programs, $5.5 Million in the Education Coloumn alone, PLUS another $4.8 Million in welfare payments.  And unless I am reading this wrong, according to schedule M, at the end of 2011 there was $57 Million sitting in a Capital Fund, and strangely enough, very little spent on infrastructure.



Think guns, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, and very expensive cars and trucks to get to the Casinos and Bingos.




			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> there are a lot of issues that we need to discuss," Spence said.



like guns, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, tobacco addiction, gambling problems, and all the crap that goes with it.


Chief-ettes       :facepalm:


----------



## dapaterson (5 Jan 2013)

Jeffrey Simpson of the good grey Globe pins it down pretty well in his column today:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/too-many-first-nations-people-live-in-a-dream-palace/article6929035/

"To imagine that isolated communities of a thousand or so people can be vibrant and self-sustaining, capable of discharging the panoply of responsibilities of “sovereignty,” is to live within the dream palace of memory."


----------



## Rifleman62 (5 Jan 2013)

Is he taking about Quebec? 

Isolated community in North America, or isolated Indian communities.


----------



## DBA (6 Jan 2013)

Idle no more reminds me of a cranky child at dinnertime who declines all offered food and complains they aren't being fed while asking to eat candy instead. They want 'something done' or 'changes' then proceed to shutdown any and all changes that aren't just wheelbarrows of cash then complain that nothing is being done or things never change.

While real nations negotiate trade deals and cooperate to enhance economic development too many native nations are unwilling to do either.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Jan 2013)

:goodpost:
DBA....I stole that for my FB page.


----------



## Strike (6 Jan 2013)

I noticed on CTV News last night they referred to Chief Spence's actions as a "liquid diet."


----------



## Sythen (6 Jan 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> DBA....I stole that for my FB page.



Ditto!


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jan 2013)

Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM  movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible. 

In my mind tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief.

It's terrorism .


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> In my mind tampering with rail signals thus endangering lives is more than mischief.
> 
> It's terrorism .



Ding! We have a winner. We'll never see the charges though. No one with enough balls to weather the left-wing media firestorm.


----------



## senorito (6 Jan 2013)

alias Lazlo, busconductor, overthefence :


----------



## Rethink (6 Jan 2013)

The law enforcement agencies tend to stand back and do nothing because their leaders don't want to make tough decisions because confrontation will bring out the media and, if anyone gets hurt (which there's always the potentila for that to happen), the fingerpointing, blame-laying and public inquiries will go on forever.  There's also a lot of political pressure from the province and whatever municipalities are involved, to do nothing because no one is more squeamish about making tough decisions than politicians.  So the strategy tends to default to hanging back and hoping the thing fizzles out.  There's actually a good chance that it will.  I'd give these protests another two weeks maybe.  By then the media will be tired of covering small groups of people hanging around burning trash barrels in below zero weather.  The politicians will have paid lip service and promised to study the mattter and everyone will go home.  Alternatively, if the public starts to get fed up with the disruptions to their daily lives, you'll start to see a more aggressive approach by police to push the protesters to the sidelines.  At that point they'll get bored and go home.    It's pretty predictable with these kinds of things.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It's terrorism .



I agree but short of flying a jet into the CN tower I can't see the Canadian government labeling any Canadian citizens _terrorists_ regardless what they do.


----------



## my72jeep (6 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I agree but short of flying a jet into the CN tower I can't see the Canadian government labeling any Canadian citizens _terrorists_ regardless what they do.


True Look what they did with the last one caught in the act, they welcomed him home and let him go.


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I agree but short of flying a jet into the CN tower I can't see the Canadian government labeling any Canadian citizens _terrorists_ regardless what they do.



A believe a few of the "Toronto 18" were Canadian citizens and were charged with terrorism-related offenses.


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any  form of Native protest in this issue.

That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being _inconvenienced_. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action. 

Let's not start comparing anything that has happened so far with the 'Toronto 18' or incidents of ecology-related arson.

Now, whether or not they should be allowed to do so, without consequence, is another matter entirely.


----------



## my72jeep (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any  form of Native protest in this issue.
> 
> That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being _inconvenienced_. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
> 
> ...





Winnipeg Free Press reported this morning that the INM  movement had blocked a rail line and someone was tampering with the rail signals, which is illegal. VIA said they would investigate and prosecute those responsible.

Are you saying Fucking with the Signals on a rail line so fright train Y has no idea passenger train X is Stopped 1 mile ahead due to protesters on the line is not an act of Domestic terrorism?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any  form of Native protest in this issue.
> 
> That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being _inconvenienced_. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
> 
> ...



So, I guess that the alleged disruption of train signals doesn't put anyone's life at risk in your books?


----------



## PuckChaser (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Let's not start comparing anything that has happened so far with the 'Toronto 18' or incidents of ecology-related arson.



Tampering with train signals has no other effect than to try to cause massive bodily harm be it on train passengers or vehicles at a train crossing, and these INM pers are tampering with the signals to push a political goal. Is that not the very essence of the terrorism laws in Canada?


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Jan 2013)

See how that song changes when a few dozen cars full of caustic soda overturn into a wetland.


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

Let's get this out of the way, before it goes any farther.

Yes, it is an offence, for justified reasons, to tamper with a railway signal. Yes, this could in theory endanger people's lives. This will go against my generalization of "any sort of conceivable danger," as a whole. I will not debate that, nor was that my intent. I am not sloughing it off as simple carelessness or "whattaya gonna do?" But let us put this into perspective.

As we all know, we can 'what if' this all to death. We can assume that the train was going to be diverted into Reactor B at Chalk River, or we can assume that the lines were going to be stopped to emphasize the shutting down of rail services, as there were protesters on the tracks. Either way, it doesn't matter. No-one here, unless more information has been divulged since, has any clarification on the statement made by the Winnipeg Free Press, or the subsequent investigation by VIA Rail.

There is nothing here, to remotely suggest 'domestic terrorism.' Period. What, we're going to wantonly throw out that term against a movement that none of us agree with, because of a vague, but potentially serious, alleged incident? I maintain that this isn't the same thing as the Toronto case.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Jan 2013)

I think we can all agree that at the very least, it is a CRIMINAL activity.

The thing is, the saboteurs likely don't understand the complex and interconnected nature of railway signals and controls.  To sabotage a "local signal arm" does not effect just a single location.  The is a cascade effect than can affect other portions of automated signals and switch controls in different locations, so it's not just a case of causing a train to stop at a particular location.

In the end, this will likely serve to harm the INM movement's efforts than to help. 

Regards
G2G


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Let's get this out of the way, before it goes any farther.
> 
> Yes, it is an offence, for justified reasons, to tamper with a railway signal. Yes, this could in theory endanger people's lives. This will go against my generalization of "any sort of conceivable danger," as a whole. I will not debate that, nor was that my intent. I am not sloughing it off as simple carelessness or "whattaya gonna do?" But let us put this into perspective.
> 
> ...



"The definition of “terrorist activity” in section 83.01 of the Criminal Code has two components. The first component incorporates a series of offences enacted to implement international legal instruments against terrorism. The second, more general, stand-alone component, states that a “terrorist activity” is an act or omission undertaken “in whole or in part for a political, religious, or ideological purpose, objective or cause” that is intended to intimidate the public or compel a person, government or organization to do or refrain from doing any act, if the act or omission intentionally causes a specified serious harm. Specified harms include causing death or serious bodily harm, endangering life, causing a serious risk to health or safety, causing substantial property damage where it would also cause one of the above listed harms and, in certain circumstances, *causing serious interference or disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private*."

 http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3066235&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&File=15


----------



## my72jeep (6 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> "The definition of “terrorist activity” in section 83.01 of the Criminal Code has two components. The first component incorporates a series of offences enacted to implement international legal instruments against terrorism. The second, more general, stand-alone component, states that a “terrorist activity” is an act or omission undertaken “in whole or in part for a political, religious, or ideological purpose, objective or cause” that is intended to intimidate the public or compel a person, government or organization to do or refrain from doing any act, if the act or omission intentionally causes a specified serious harm. Specified harms include causing death or serious bodily harm, endangering life, causing a serious risk to health or safety, causing substantial property damage where it would also cause one of the above listed harms and, in certain circumstances, *causing serious interference or disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private*."
> 
> http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=3066235&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&File=15



Nail on the head. MP inbound. :goodpost:


----------



## teabag (6 Jan 2013)

Please do not neglect the paragraph that follows from that same reference:

"Some hold the view that the stand-alone definition is overboard and that the reference to motive of political, religious or ideological purpose may invite “profiling” on the basis of politics, religion or ideology. This issue of the motive requirement is currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja. [2] There are also some concerns that the elements which relate to seriously interfering with or disrupting an essential service might extend anti-terrorism measures to unlawful but peaceful labour strikes or other protests. These concerns were also raised in 2001 and, in response, Parliament included in the section an exception for advocacy, protest, dissent and stoppage of work, provided these activities are not intended to cause any of the other serious forms of harm referred to in the definition."


----------



## larry Strong (6 Jan 2013)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> Please do not neglect the paragraph that follows from that same reference:
> 
> "Some hold the view that the stand-alone definition is overboard and that the reference to motive of political, religious or ideological purpose may invite “profiling” on the basis of politics, religion or ideology. This issue of the motive requirement is_* currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja*_. [2] There are also some concerns that the elements which relate to seriously interfering with or disrupting an essential service might extend anti-terrorism measures to unlawful but peaceful labour strikes or other protests. These concerns were also raised in 2001 and, in response, Parliament included in the section an exception for advocacy, protest, dissent and stoppage of work, provided these activities are not intended to cause any of the other serious forms of harm referred to in the definition."



Actually the court has issued a ruling.....in favor of the legislation:


> The Court ruled that the terrorism offences set out in sections 83.03, 83.18, 83.19 and 83.21 of the Criminal Code are constitutional



http://scc.lexum.org/decisia-scc-csc/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/12768/1/document.do

Larry


----------



## Journeyman (6 Jan 2013)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> This issue of the motive requirement is currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja.


Nice attempt at clouding the issue Urmimu, but to elaborate on the previous response, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously, upholding the motive clause and concluding that threats of violence are not constitutionally protected.

There is further detail in the _Ottawa Citizen_, here, which outlines not only additional aspects of the constitutionality, but also upholds the expansion of Khawaja's initial 10-year sentence to life, no chance of parole for 10 years plus 24 consecutive years, which was  imposed by the Ontario Court of Appeal.


For an interesting, if somewhat dated, perspective on the Anti-Terrorism Act, the Justice Department has a copy of _The Views of Canadian Scholars on the Impact of the Anti-Terrorism Act_ (2004) here.  

I find it interesting, in that Canadian academics are often pre-supposed to be tree-hugging leftists, yet their views are echoed in this Supreme Court ruling that even in the "rush to legislate in the face of a great catastrophe, the government did not go too far in drafting the Anti-terrorism Act amendments to the Criminal Code."


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Urmimu said:
			
		

> Please do not neglect the paragraph that follows from that same reference:
> 
> "Some hold the view that the stand-alone definition is overboard and that the reference to motive of political, religious or ideological purpose may invite “profiling” on the basis of politics, religion or ideology. This issue of the motive requirement is currently before the courts in R. v. Khawaja. [2] There are also some concerns that the elements which relate to seriously interfering with or disrupting an essential service might extend anti-terrorism measures to unlawful but peaceful labour strikes or other protests. These concerns were also raised in 2001 and, in response, Parliament included in the section an exception for advocacy, protest, dissent and stoppage of work, provided these activities are not intended to cause any of the other serious forms of harm referred to in the definition."



Please do not neglect the highlighted, last sentence.

Standing in a park, holding signs and chanting is not the same as blocking a railroad or interferring with the safety equipment.


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> *causing serious interference or disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private*."



In order to meet that definition, you would need to clarify "serious interference or disruption" and "essential service, facility or system." 

Several hours of travel disruption, perhaps even days, is not going to constitute a 'serious' disruption. If it was, then VIA and CN would be screaming to high heaven for someone to do something about the Natives on the tracks, or perhaps they would trot out some ramming bars to the front of their engines. Are people going to be pissed off? Yes. Is money going to be lost? Undoubtedly, yes. But is it a serious threat to the national, or even local, infrastructure? Hardly.

And again, let's put this into perspective. Do we honestly think, with the information provided and this being wholly in the realm of "just a wild hunch," that this was a concentrated effort to derail trains, plow them into canals, or otherwise jeopardize national commerce or hundreds of lives? I doubt it, I truly do. It was more than likely a bunch of protesters trying to affect a railway crossing arm or light at one intersection. I am not condoning their behaviour. As Good2Golf said, it would have far reaching consequences. But we are taking about 'Mischief' and 'Criminal Negligence,' not quite 'Terrorism.'


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> In order to meet that definition, you would need to clarify "serious interference or disruption" and "essential service, facility or system."
> 
> Several hours of travel disruption, perhaps even days, is not going to constitute a 'serious' disruption. If it was, then VIA and CN would be screaming to high heaven for someone to do something about the Natives on the tracks, or perhaps they would trot out some ramming bars to the front of their engines. Are people going to be pissed off? Yes. Is money going to be lost? Undoubtedly, yes. But is it a serious threat to the national, or even local, infrastructure? Hardly.
> 
> And again, let's put this into perspective. Do we honestly think, with the information provided and this being wholly in the realm of "just a wild hunch," that this was a concentrated effort to derail trains, plow them into canals, or otherwise jeopardize national commerce or hundreds of lives? I doubt it, I truly do. It was more than likely a bunch of protesters trying to affect a railway crossing arm or light at one intersection. I am not condoning their behaviour. As Good2Golf said, it would have far reaching consequences. But we are taking about 'Mischief' and 'Criminal Negligence,' not quite 'Terrorism.'



Just because you, a layman citizen, do not believe it is a serious interference or disruption to an essential service, facility or system, does not make it so.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> It was more than likely a bunch of protesters trying to affect a railway crossing arm or light at one intersection.



Or a certain small group of people hiding in the shadow of the larger movement who's intention is to either derail a train (which some boneheads will claim is the work of paid Harper agents trying to frame them) or simply cause fear and _terror_ in daily commuters.


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

Fair enough, and vice versa. 

Can we just agree to disagree over titles and share disgust over the elk slaughter?


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Or a certain small group of people hiding in the shadow of the larger movement who's intention is to either derail a train (which some boneheads will claim is the work of paid Harper agents trying to frame them) or simply cause fear and _terror_ in daily commuters.



Ah, Black Bloc-esque tactics, eh? 

I have no doubt that those elements exist, especially inside the 'Mohawk Warrior' elements. I also believe that many members of the movement, dedicated or casual, will continue to push the limits of not only the government, but Canadian society as a whole. Where the foot gets put down and batons come a-flyin' I can't wager. But it will be farther down the road from highway and railway traffic disruptions, I can pretty much guarantee.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Fair enough, and vice versa.
> 
> Can we just agree to disagree over titles and share disgust over the elk slaughter?



I'm more disgusted by people with jobs loosing money because of blockades (or the racism and bullying leveled at FN people who don't support blockades) but shooting a family of elk is bad too.  Oddly enough I don't even think the guy who posted that IS a part of INM. Sounded like he was being sarcastic to me.  



			
				Baloo said:
			
		

> Ah, Black Bloc-esque tactics, eh?


Interesting you should mention that, brother...
Perhaps you should enlighten us as to what else you know of this "black block" you speak of out of the blue?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Ah, Black Bloc-esque tactics, eh?
> 
> I have no doubt that those elements exist, especially inside the 'Mohawk Warrior' elements. I also believe that many members of the movement, dedicated or casual, will continue to push the limits of not only the government, but Canadian society as a whole. Where the foot gets put down and batons come a-flyin' I can't wager. But it will be farther down the road from highway and railway traffic disruptions, I can pretty much guarantee.



Not just in the Warrior Society. You must have missed the discussion upthread where proven, non-native anarchists are participating in the INM protests.


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Jan 2013)

Strictly speaking, unless you know exactly what is in the cargo of a tractor/trailer, railway car, or aircraft, how can you possibly know whether disruption of delivery is of trivial or grave importance?

The operative rule should be: don't fuck with things you don't understand when common sense tells you it's wrong.


----------



## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not just in the Warrior Society. You must have missed the discussion upthread where proven, non-native anarchists are participating in the INM protests.



Right, post #321.
http://www.genuinewitty.com/2013/01/03/idlenomore-the-soros-anarchists-behind-the-scene-at-the-sarnia-rail-blockade/


----------



## Kat Stevens (6 Jan 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Strictly speaking, unless you know exactly what is in the cargo of a tractor/trailer, railway car, or aircraft, how can you possibly know whether disruption of delivery is of trivial or grave importance?
> 
> The operative rule should be: don't fuck with things you don't understand when_* common sense*_ tells you it's wrong.



He spoke the words!  He spoke the words!  Stone him!!


----------



## Remius (6 Jan 2013)

Ever since Greg renouf posted a link to his blog denouncing Rememberance day protesters, I've been impressed by his way of doing business with anarchists.  He is left wing, but you can't help but respect the way he goes after the hypocrisy of the left wing extremists.  You might not agree with his politics but you can respect the way he presents his views.

http://www.genuinewitty.com/2013/01/06/attawapiskats-problematic-investment-portfolio-and-how-it-conflicts-with-idlenomores-values/

Great post by him at the link above that shows the hypocrisy of this whole situation.


----------



## Rifleman62 (6 Jan 2013)

*Checking in on Attawapiskat*

CBC The National

*From January 2012:*  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1ynaC8f5ues#!

Also: *CBC quietly changes BS story about doctor’s diagnose of Chief Spence*

January 6, 2013 — BC Blue   http://bcblue.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/cbc-quietly-changes-bs-story-about-doctors-diagnose-of-chief-spence/


----------



## Baloo (6 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm more disgusted by people with jobs loosing money because of blockades (or the racism and bullying leveled at FN people who don't support blockades) but shooting a family of elk is bad too.  Oddly enough I don't even think the guy who posted that IS a part of INM. Sounded like he was being sarcastic to me.



Whether or not it is a part of the larger movement, is personally irrelevant. If it starts a discussion on the deplorable state of Native hunting rights, great. If not, it at least outed one individual and showed people unfamiliar with the situation, what occurs. Sustenance harvest, right. As a hunter myself, the situation disgusts me. But I digress.



> Interesting you should mention that, brother...
> Perhaps you should enlighten us as to what else you know of this "black block" you speak of out of the blue?



I'm not sure why I sense a condescending tone, but again, I was agreeing with you. Referencing the 'Black Bloc' of anarchist protest fame, a heterogeneous rabble of thugs, generally situated within a larger, peaceful movement. During the course of said protest, the unaffiliated, or affiliated out of convenience, group breaks off from the main body to wage war on the bank windows and newspaper boxes in the streets. Refer to the G20, as an example. Outrage and chaos for its own sake.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Not just in the Warrior Society. You must have missed the discussion upthread where proven, non-native anarchists are participating in the INM protests.



I'm not sure why you're implying that I am ignorant on the matter. I was agreeing with the fact that there are agitating elements and factions within the greater movement. 

I pointed out the 'Warriors' as but one variable.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any  form of Native protest in this issue.
> 
> That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being _inconvenienced_. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
> 
> ...



Messing with rail signals on a VIA rail line is not mischief. It's terrorism, period.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why you're implying that I am ignorant on the matter. I was agreeing with the fact that there are agitating elements and factions within the greater movement.
> 
> I pointed out the 'Warriors' as but one variable.



I wasn't implying anything. Just pointing out the obvious. That you seemed to have missed the previous part of the thread concerning your subject.


----------



## Scott (6 Jan 2013)

Stewiacke, Nova Scotia. Good Friday, 2001. Via Rail's "Ocean" derails with dozens of injuries and, miraculously, no loss of life though some are still feeling the after affects. The train wiped out a feed mill where patrons had mere seconds to escape. 

Cause: a kid fucked with an old switch sending the train down a barely used side track and into the feed mill.

Is that cause and effect enough?


----------



## Retired AF Guy (6 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> Trust me, in no way shape or form, am I coming to the defence of 'Idle No More,' or any  form of Native protest in this issue.
> 
> That being said, I think some people are being slightly hyperbolic when they label anything that has taken place so far as 'terrorism.' No-one, from the government to the Canadian public, is being harmed, threatened or otherwise put in any sort of conceivable danger, at this point. I say at this point, because things can always change. No, people are being _inconvenienced_. Shutting down a passenger railway, highway, or border crossing for several hours cannot, nor should it be, considered 'terrorism.' Really, every protest is in some form an attempt to coerce a group of people into action.
> 
> Let's not start comparing anything that has happened so far with the 'Toronto 18' or incidents of ecology-related arson.



Things can spiral out of control very quickly. Remember, Oka started with a dispute over a golf course.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jan 2013)

Army.ca member and journalist David Akin has got a better idea upon which he expounds in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Sun_:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/03/akin-more-teachers-not-warriors-solution-to-first-nations-crisis


> More teachers, not warriors, solution to First Nations crisis
> 
> BY DAVID AKIN, PARLIAMENTARY BUREAU CHIEF
> 
> ...




Of course education is not the (whole) answer for first nations peoples living on remote reserves. There have to be jobs there - something of value about which young people can learn - or the young people have to leave. The _status quo_ produces hopelessness which leads to substance abuse and shocking rates of suicide.

But David Akin is right: _idle No More_ is obscuring the problem, not highlighting it.


----------



## Baloo (7 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I wasn't implying anything. Just pointing out the obvious. That you seemed to have missed the previous part of the thread concerning your subject.



I guess in all my ignorance, I missed the part where you were right and I made no connection towards aggressive sects within the protest movement.



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Is that cause and effect enough?



I don't think that anyone is claiming that unlawfully interfering with railway signals is either good, or that it can't result in grave damage.



			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Things can spiral out of control very quickly. Remember, Oka started with a dispute over a golf course.



Of course it can. I've been deployed to several demonstrations or events in this province and seen it first hand. 

All I have said, is that SO FAR, with the _best available information_, there has been criminality, but no overt acts that would constitute domestic terrorism.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jan 2013)

Baloo said:
			
		

> I guess in all my ignorance, I missed the part where you were right and I made no connection towards aggressive sects within the protest movement.



How condescending of you. I try to play nice and you try make me feel guilty.  8) 

You almost sound like you could give lessons to the protesters yourself.


----------



## 57Chevy (7 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Army.ca member and journalist David Akin has got a better idea upon which he expounds in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Sun_:
> 
> http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/03/akin-more-teachers-not-warriors-solution-to-first-nations-crisis
> 
> ...



Excellent article and post.
If we were bowling, that would be a strike.
Knowledge Inspires Change.


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Jan 2013)

>domestic terrorism

Fundamentally, there is crime for personal gain, and there is crime for political gain.  The latter is essentially all "terrorism".  It doesn't have to be more than an inconvenience to be terrorism.


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

And after a sympathetic show of support for Chief Spence, the CBC changes gears, and actually decides to report some real news on the subject of Attiwapiskat.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/01/07/pol-attawapiskat-audit-monday.html

Gee, it would be nice if criminal charges were filed.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jan 2013)

CBC News is reporting that a recent audit of the $100M in emergency assistance provided to Chief Spence's Attawapiskat First Nation between 2005 and 2011 finds _"no evidence of due diligence"_. Over 60% of transactions (payments) had no supporting documents at all. 

When I worked in the private sector one of my duties, as the senior manager, was to authorize payments. I can assure you that every single payment was supported by documentation reflection why, how and who. Had they not been properly documented my employers (the board of directors) would have been duty bound to call the police because undocumented payments are, generally, an indicator of fraud, a crime.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jan 2013)

The star has a similar report, though the emphasis is on the political fallout.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1311314--federal-government-audit-severely-critical-of-attawapiskat-chief-theresa-spence


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> When I worked in the private sector one of my duties, as the senior manager, was to authorize payments. I can assure you that every single payment was supported by documentation reflection why, how and who. Had they not been properly documented my employers (the board of directors) would have been duty bound to call the police because undocumented payments are, generally, an indicator of fraud, a crime.



I work in the Municipal sector, same thing on this side. If we had the same poor accounting practices where millions of dollars were unaccounted for, not only would heads roll, but someone would be in handcuffs by the end of the business day.....

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Whether charges will be laid or not due to political climate, and perceptions. It is interesting to see the media switch gears and start spinning.


----------



## Scott (7 Jan 2013)

Not so fast. When Spence shows up at the meeting and collapses due to "weakness" the CBC will be banging the drum for her once again.

Wait for it.


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Not so fast. When Spence shows up at the meeting and collapses due to "weakness" the CBC will be banging the drum for her once again.
> 
> Wait for it.



Sadly, as humourous as your post is......you might just be right.

Or she's going to be admitted to hospital for stress related issues, so she can conveniently duck any of the tough questions that will be asked.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (7 Jan 2013)

Just did some research as this 110 million being given to just over 1500 people and very little of it accounted for has me concerned.
Canada gives about 10 billion dollars each year to the Native communities through grants assistance etc. The military is given about 22.3 billion. The total budget for the country is about 276 billion. So we give 10 billion away to the native communities and we receive no benefit from it besides having protests and such against us. On top of this they do not even pay taxes so this is completely funded out of everyone elses pocket. Just some info I picked up quickly from google searches. Its kinda nice to put this in perspective though.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jan 2013)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Just did some research as this 110 million being given to just over 1500 people and very little of it accounted for has me concerned.
> Canada gives about 10 billion dollars each year to the Native communities through grants assistance etc. The military is given about 22.3 billion. The total budget for the country is about 276 billion. So we give 10 billion away to the native communities and we receive no benefit from it besides having protests and such against us. On top of this they do not even pay taxes so this is completely funded out of everyone elses pocket. Just some info I picked up quickly from google searches. Its kinda nice to put this in perspective though.



I hope you are being sarcastic.  110 million, given to 1500 people who don't pay taxes, not being accounted for, has me extremely concerned.  My taxes keep going up.  I have worked hard for what little I am able to save.  Why am I working hard in the hope of a descent living in my later years, while my taxes are being freely given away to people who do not pay taxes, who do not want to work, who do not respect what is given to them and who complain when more is not done for them?  I would say that the numpty who started the topic on Male Haircuts being against the Charter of Human Rights, instead fight that NO Canadians pay taxes and those on the Reserves, Welfare, etc. get NO freebies.   How is that for discrimination?  Harm is being done to us Tax Paying Canadians, as we are emptying out our wallets to support Aboriginals, Welfare Recipients, etc.  My quality of life is gravely affected supporting none taxpaying idle people who demand handouts.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Not so fast. When Spence shows up at the meeting and collapses due to "weakness" the CBC will be banging the drum for her once again.
> 
> Wait for it.



Thanks for making that suggestion.  I am sure that one of her many followers, parusing topics on her, will soon make that very suggestion to her.  (No conspiracy here.)


----------



## Scott (7 Jan 2013)

Then I'll have made the call, eh? MSM can peruse the same topics as her handlers can.


----------



## Journeyman (7 Jan 2013)

Either way -- MSM or handlers -- you're losing the MilPoints if she does.


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Jan 2013)

I am reluctant to say too much about the whole FN thing because I am: 

1. Ignorant; and

2. Devoid of anything like a useful, much less good idea.

But, this report in the _National Post_ makes for sad, head shaking reading.

I have no idea what the right answers (and I'm pretty sure there's more than one, mor than ten, probably even more than 100 answers) might be, but I'm pretty sure that firm, steady, *leadership*, in Ottawa and in First Nations, is part of them.


----------



## a_majoor (7 Jan 2013)

Beat me to posting the article. One thing that struck me is that this was over a year old, yet received nothing like the frenzied, day in/day out coverage the CBC gives to the various faux "scandals" allegedly perpetrated by the current government.

There is one fault I can attach to the government, based on that report. Since the various facts were known or at least knowable to bureaucrats in Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, why didn't they spring into action with forensic audits and third party management much, much sooner? Perhaps _this_ is the real lesson of the entire affair.


----------



## Scott (7 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I am reluctant to say too much about the whole FN thing because I am:
> 
> 1. Ignorant; and
> 
> ...



That is AWESOME!



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Either way -- MSM or handlers -- you're losing the MilPoints if she does.



Ah, but my hope is that some of the smart media (everyone at CBC excluded) might see right through the ruse, if it comes to pass.


----------



## Sadukar09 (7 Jan 2013)

I'm now stuck in a class, with a professor that had a bobble head when someone mentioned Spence's 'hunger strike'.

It might be a long semester.


----------



## Old Sweat (7 Jan 2013)

And Christie Blatchford reports in the National Post that a judge who issued injunctions lifting blockades of rail lines expressed dismay that the OPP refuses to enforce the law. The story is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.

Judge slams Ontario police for not breaking up Idle No More protests

Christie Blatchford | Jan 7, 2013 12:03 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 7, 2013 12:09 PM ET

TORONTO — Saying “I do not get it,” an Ontario Superior Court judge Monday bemoaned the passivity of Ontario police forces on illegal native barricades and issued a lament for the state of law-and-order in the nation.

“…no person in Canada stands above or outside of the law,” Judge David Brown said in a decision that was alternately bewildered and plaintive.

“Although that principle of the rule of law is simple, at the same time it is fragile. Without Canadians sharing a public expectation of obeying the law, the rule of law will shatter.”

Judge Brown was formally giving his reasons for having granted CN Rail an emergency injunction last Saturday night, when the railway rushed to court when Idle No More protesters blocked the Wymans Road crossing on the main line between Toronto and Montreal.

That protest ended about midnight the same night, but as Judge Brown noted dryly, “not, as it turns out, because the police had assisted in enforcing the order” he granted.

When the judge read in the media Sunday morning that the blockade had ended, he asked CN to submit an affidavit how it had happened.

As the same judge who last month watched — “shocked,” he said later, at “such disrespect” — as Sarnia Police ignored his court orders to end another Idle No More blockade on a CN spur line, he was right to be skeptical.

And sure enough, what Judge Brown learned was that once the local sheriff got a copy of his order, by about 10:30 p.m. Saturday, she contacted the Ontario Provincial Police on scene.

The staff-sergeant there told her “it was too dangerous” to attempt to serve the order – on all of 15 protesters.

But, the judge said, he’d made “a time-sensitive order” precisely because the evidence showed that the railway suffered “from each hour the blockade remained in place, yet the OPP would not assist the local sheriff to ensure the order was served…

“Such an approach by the OPP was most disappointing,” Judge Brown said, “because it undercut the practical effect of the injunction order.

“That kind of passivity by the police leads me to doubt that a future exists in this province for the use of court injunctions in cases of public demonstrations.”

Judge Brown said that while he appreciates that Ontario Court of Appeal has said the rule of law can be applied in a “highly textured” or “nuanced” way when protesters are aboriginals involved in a land claim dispute, that doesn’t apply “to 15 people standing on the CN Main Line saying they were showing support for First Nations Chiefs in a forthcoming meeting with the Prime Minister.

“Such conduct had nothing to do with the process involved in sorting out land or usage claims…” the judge said.

“…it was straight-forward political protest, pure and simple. Just as 15 persons from some other group would have no right to stand in the middle of the Main Line tracks blocking rail traffic in order to espouse a political cause close to their hearts, neither do 15 persons from a First Nation.”

The judge expressed “astonishment” that Sarnia Police failed to enforce court orders for almost two weeks, and then that protesters again blocked the Main Line for five hours, just a week after another demonstration in the same area.

He already had concerns, he said, stemming out of what occurred in Sarnia, about the willingness of police forces to enforce injunctions involving native protesters, but issued the order Saturday night because CN lawyers showed how serious were the effects of the blockade of the main line.

Furthermore, Judge Brown said, police already have sufficient tools under the Criminal Code to remove illegal protests. “In light of those powers of arrest enjoyed by police officers,” he wondered, “why does the operator of a critical railway have to run off to court to secure an injunction when a small group of protesters park themselves on the rail line bringing operations to a grinding halt?

“I do not get it,” he said.

As a member of one part of the law-and-order equation, Judge Brown said, “I remain puzzled why another part – our police agencies and their civilian overseers – does not make use of the tools given to it by our laws to ‘ensure the safety and security of all persons and property in Ontario’,” which he said is the first principle governing police services.

He warned “we seem to be drifting into dangerous waters in the life of the public affairs of this province when the courts cannot predict, with any practical degree of certainty, whether police agencies” will assist in enforcing court orders.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (7 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I hope you are being sarcastic.  110 million, given to 1500 people who don't pay taxes, not being accounted for, has me extremely concerned.  My taxes keep going up.  I have worked hard for what little I am able to save.  Why am I working hard in the hope of a descent living in my later years, while my taxes are being freely given away to people who do not pay taxes, who do not want to work, who do not respect what is given to them and who complain when more is not done for them?  I would say that the numpty who started the topic on Male Haircuts being against the Charter of Human Rights, instead fight that NO Canadians pay taxes and those on the Reserves, Welfare, etc. get NO freebies.   How is that for discrimination?  Harm is being done to us Tax Paying Canadians, as we are emptying out our wallets to support Aboriginals, Welfare Recipients, etc.  My quality of life is gravely affected supporting none taxpaying idle people who demand handouts.



I think that we should just abolish the Indian Act altogether. It is a Racist and discriminatory document that says only if you are born to a native family may you get this special status which is above what a regular Canadian citizen has. Its basically apartheid, and is a stupid and racist practice supporting a few lazy people who refuse to do anything to try to improve there own situation.


----------



## Rifleman62 (7 Jan 2013)

ERC's previous post: Army.ca member and journalist David Akin has got a better idea upon which he expounds in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Sun:

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/01/03/akin-more-teachers-not-warriors-solution-to-first-nations-crisis



> Though he won re-election as AFN national chief last summer, Atleo had to overcome a strong challenge from *Pam Palmeter*, who wanted a more radical, militant, warrior-like AFN. As she launched her campaign to unseat Atleo last summer, she quite specifically accused him of being too "nice" to Harper's Conservatives and made the bizarre claim that Atleo was taking Canada's First Nations down the path to assimilation.
> 
> *Palmeter then - and now - would have First Nations go to the barricades as if that is all that it would take to fix the Crown-First Nation relationship*.



IMHO Pam didn't get elected as AFN National Chief, but is determined to be the Indian rabble rouser of Canada  (IRRC) including undermining everything/everybody to achieve her aim of self importance. Sore loser.
*
Idle No More spokesperson Pam Palmater* appears on CTV’s Canada AM in Toronto, Monday, Jan. 7, 2013.

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/attawapiskat-audit-scrutinizes-reserve-s-record-keeping-on-millions-spent-1.1103496#ixzz2HK5PwTQH

Pamela Palmater (born 1970) is a Mi'kmaq lawyer, professor, activist and politician from Mi'kma'ki, New Brunswick, Canada. Her family is from Eel River. Palmater is a media political commentator, frequently appearing for Aboriginal Peoples Television Network, InFocus, CTV, and the Canadian Broadcasting Company.

Biography

In 2009, Palmater obtained a Doctorate in Aboriginal Law from Dalhousie University Law School. Her undergraduate degree, from Saint Thomas University in 1994, is in Native Studies and History. In 2012, Palmater was the runner up in the Assembly of First Nations leadership elections for national chief.

She is active in the Assembly of First Nations and is head of the Centre for Indigenous Governance. She is a professor in the Department of Politics and Public Administration at Ryerson University and was formerly Director at Indian and Northern Affairs.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Ah, but my hope is that some of the smart media (everyone at CBC excluded) might see right through the ruse, if it comes to pass.



Scott

You really are an optimist, aren't you?


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jan 2013)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Its basically apartheid, and is a stupid and racist practice supporting a few lazy people who refuse to do anything to try to improve there own situation.





There are plenty of Native Americans (Canadians?) who fall under the indian act who are not lazy, looking for handouts or who refuse to do anything to improve their own situation.


----------



## Scott (7 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Scott
> 
> You really are an optimist, aren't you?



Not so long ago we were wondering why the media hadn't caught on, now they have.

If Chief Tubby tries to pull a fast one with any theatrics it might make headlines but I am reasonably certain that it'll be uncovered as a ruse later and make her look even worse.


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> You realize you're condemning it as racist only to make a racist comment 3 words later right?
> 
> There are plenty of Native Americans (Canadians?)   First Nations peoples who fall under the indian act who are not lazy, looking for handouts or who refuse to do anything to improve their own situation.



There, fixed that for you...


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> There, fixed that for you...


Thanks!


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Not so long ago we were wondering why the media hadn't caught on, now they have.



What I can't understand, is why on earth, when we were sourcing all the pertinent info that was readily available, and posting days ago, did the mainstream media still participate in the farce that was going on? 

It will be interesting to see what transpires with Mayor ( Chief) Spence as Friday draws near. 

What I have yet to see is any comment from her band mates on the Hunger Strike, mis-spent funds, etc. One individual was quoted briefly in the Posts article, but you'd think in a town of 1549 there would be someone who'd be willing to come forward and speak their mind on the whole thing.


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Thanks!



 anytime chum.


----------



## jollyjacktar (7 Jan 2013)

CBC was reporting on the radio that Spence's handlers were not in a good mood towards the media once the report of the audit hit the streets today.  They were refusing all access to the great and wonderful Oz.  Nice to see that the jig is up and some clarity is beginning to come to the MSM drones out there.

Just waiting for some little kid to point and exclaim that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes.   Hopefully someone will eventually wear some new bracelets...


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Jan 2013)

Only white males can be racist. Sorry.


----------



## 57Chevy (7 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> ... someone who'd be willing to come forward and speak their mind on the whole thing.



Not quite.
from ERs' reply #444 (Article) quote "Local reserve resident Lindy Mudd, interviewed at length by Ms. Arsenault, states quite clearly that he is ashamed by the manner in which Ms. Spence has made Attawapiskat a poster-child of native poverty."

Who's he ?

Some interesting reading here: 
From Attawapiskat to a Mexican Jail Cell
dated January 23, 2012
http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/blog/2012/01/from-attawapiskat-to-a-mexican-jail-cell.html

Cynthia Vanier ?   Who's she ?

One year later, Cynthia Vanier awaits final decision 
dated  5 November 2012
http://lapoliticaeslapolitica.blogspot.ca/2012/11/one-year-later-cynthia-vanier-awaits_9495.html

IMO, I think there is much more to the Idle-no-more agenda than meets the eye.
One  big  :worms:

                 Articles shared with provisions of The Copyright Act


----------



## Bluebulldog (7 Jan 2013)

Interesting ties.

Still, Lindy Mudd was interviewed a year ago. You'd expect that with the information that's been flying around, and the circus surrounding Spence, that someone on the reserve would have been interviewed.

Or maybe they're laying low, and just waiting for the Mighty Chief Spence to come home.....


----------



## a_majoor (7 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> What I can't understand, is why on earth, when we were sourcing all the pertinent info that was readily available, and posting days ago, did the mainstream media still participate in the farce that was going on?



Because that is the "Narrative", built up over a generation of propaganda, greivance and pandering. Stories and facts that don't fit into the "narrative" are ignored. excluded or quickly passed over. George Orwell understood the idea back when he coined the term "memory hole" in the novel 1984...

Perhaps luckily for us, Orwell had never imagined that the people would also get their hands on power similar to States; "we" can run parallel news services through blogs, pull up and re post incoveinient facts, employ armies of crowdsourced fact checkers to examine data and run rings around the previous generations of gate keepers who decided what products, services and ideas were going to be available to the _Hoi polloi_. Think of it as the "small furry mammal" revolution that is going to eat dinosaurs like the Legacy Media and Cheif Spence.


----------



## The_Falcon (7 Jan 2013)

I am kind of curious, given the obvious refusal by local/provincial police services, to carry out court injunctions at the behest of the railways, if this will prompt the railways to beef up their own police services, so they don't have to go through this process, every single time their lines get blocked.


----------



## Bass ackwards (7 Jan 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I am kind of curious, given the obvious refusal by local/provincial police services, to carry out court injunctions at the behest of the railways, if this will prompt the railways to beef up their own police services, so they don't have to go through this process, every single time their lines get blocked.



Sounds like a can of worms in the making if they do.
The last time I checked, private police forces services are on the list of "bad things" -similar to private military contractors- except that the private police services have been flying under the radar these last several years.
That could change in one hell of a hurry if there was a confrontation between them and the poor, oppressed natives. 

Edited for a really dumb spelling mistake.


----------



## Container (7 Jan 2013)

CN and CP police are no more likely to interfere in a strike than any other force. It comes down to the will of the Canadian people- people have died during breaking strikes and demonstrations in Canada.

A judge will just as quickly say the police had no right to use force to dismantle a protest as he did to sign the injunction or cease order. They should have "backed out" and started negotiating or some other nonsense- given that if they would leave when asked....they would have already left. There is no public stomach for what it takes to take apart a native blockade, thus there is no political will, and then that means police brass, politicians of a type, have no stomach for the risks associated to it either. Judges seem to think that if they sign something and a police officer shows up holding it mob mentality means everyone complies.

The truth is the opposite especially when as soon as you do everyone washes their hands of you- from the judge to the public.


----------



## MedCorps (7 Jan 2013)

It would be interesting if the Canadian National / Canadian Pacific police services increased their presence and exercised the full force of their authority under section 44.1 of the Railway Safety Act (as well as any other special provincial appointments which have often, outside of Quebec, been granted). 

It could change things up and CN / CP would not need to worry about the inability of the Sarina Police Service or the OPP (or whoever) to carry out the legal order of a judge.  

It might raise some eyebrows, but the cost of raising tactical division of their respective police services would be minor compared to the lost revenue per day due to illegal rail line blockage and the unseen cost of lack of customer confidence in the rail system.  

Interesting thought. Enjoy the running commentary / debate here. 

MC


----------



## Container (7 Jan 2013)

There are around 100 police officers in each of the CN and CP police- across the US and Canada. They are not going to be equipped to handle these types of duties. Dets of 3 or 4 officers for thousands of KM's of rail line. And their brass are just as weary of demonstrations and liability.

They call the police force of local jurisdiction when a train accident occurs. If they dont investigate major train incidents- which would seem like a logical extension of their duties....a tac troop to break up blockades seems....unlikely.


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (7 Jan 2013)

Happy Reading everyone,

Shared with all the usual caveats etc, etc etc.....  

Got the first link from the CBC Article here -> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/01/07/pol-attawapiskat-audit-monday.html

The second from the Band's Official Web Page

It's heavily redacted in a lot of places, but it raises some eyebrows - >   http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/551444-deloitte-audit.html

Especially when read after this one -> http://www.attawapiskat.org/wp-content/uploads/2011-Management-Letter.pdf

Gotta love the information super highway.


----------



## GAP (7 Jan 2013)

Condemnation by auditor.....


----------



## The_Falcon (8 Jan 2013)

Container said:
			
		

> There are around 100 police officers in each of the CN and CP police- across the US and Canada. They are not going to be equipped to handle these types of duties. Dets of 3 or 4 officers for thousands of KM's of rail line. And their brass are just as weary of demonstrations and liability.
> 
> They call the police force of local jurisdiction when a train accident occurs. If they dont investigate major train incidents- which would seem like a logical extension of their duties....a tac troop to break up blockades seems....unlikely.



All true but only because they significantly downsized the scale and scope of their operations, through the 80s and 90s, because it was a significant cost for them.  Who's to say that if these kinds of blockades become more and more frequent and local police forces continue to show an unwilliness to enforce court injunctions, that someone within CP/CN might do a CBA and perhaps it might show that the expense of expanding is more than justified.  CP has actually been on a bit of a hiring spree for the last two to three years.  And remember both companies ultimately answer to their shareholders, if they start making a stink about loss of profits and revenue I am quite certain they will start looking at ways to address those losses.


----------



## Container (8 Jan 2013)

We re on the same page and I agree. But I believe we may actually witness a strong armed blockade dismantling in the coming months- we'll see if the courts back up their talk. 

If I was a wagering man Id bet against it- and that will cement the limp wristed responses as the only response. But thats just my guts talking


----------



## GR66 (8 Jan 2013)

In my opinion there will be no solution to these problems unless we basically make a fresh start and start from scratch in negotiating the place of First Nations people in Canada.  We're trying to implement 19th Century treaties in the 21st Century.  The world has simply changed too much for this to work to the satisfaction of the bulk of either First Nations peoples or the rest of Canada (excluding of course those _individuals _ who manage to profit from the current system).  Unfortunately a real solution will likely require much more leadership than we have available on either side.  

There are certain similarities to the Israeli-Palestinian situation in as much as for a true, lasting and just settlement to take place one side must accept the fact that their world has fundamentally changed and that there is no going back in time to a situation that simply does not (and will not) exist any more.  The other side meanwhile must realize that the current situation is unhealthy, counterproductive and unsustainable in the long run and that ultimately real sacrifices will have to be made to secure a long term solution.

Certain things were promised to the First Nations peoples in the historical treaties.  Many of those things no longer have the same value in today's society as they did when the treaties were negotiated.  Perhaps we need to find "things" (rights, resources, access, etc) that are of similar comparative value in today's society to replace the original treaty rights.  I think the "rest of Canada" must come to the understanding that the treaties were more than just land-swap "transactions" but also an accommodation between different peoples that had very different cultures and values seeking to share the land and resources in peace.  First Nations peoples on the other hand I think have to come to accept that the idea of having a separate group of people in Canada that have different fundamental rights than the rest of Canadians is unacceptable.  It may not be a pleasant truth for them to accept, but the Europeans were on the winning side of history in North America.  We are all Canadians now and all should have the same rights and freedoms under the law.  

I think we're still (on both sides) far from reaching this point of understanding, but it's my opinion that this is where we need to be before a real solution can be found.


----------



## ModlrMike (8 Jan 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> In my opinion there will be no solution to these problems unless we basically make a fresh start and start from scratch in negotiating the place of First Nations people in Canada.  We're trying to implement 19th Century treaties in the 21st Century.  The world has simply changed too much for this to work to the satisfaction of the bulk of either First Nations peoples or the rest of Canada (excluding of course those _individuals _ who manage to profit from the current system).  Unfortunately a real solution will likely require much more leadership than we have available on either side.
> 
> There are certain similarities to the Israeli-Palestinian situation in as much as for a true, lasting and just settlement to take place one side must accept the fact that their world has fundamentally changed and that there is no going back in time to a situation that simply does not (and will not) exist any more.  The other side meanwhile must realize that the current situation is unhealthy, counterproductive and unsustainable in the long run and that ultimately real sacrifices will have to be made to secure a long term solution.
> 
> ...



As much as I would hope your suggestions are carried forward, I wouldn't bet on it. Activist FN leaders have no interest in changing anything. The victim industry is too invested in the dysfunctional systems to risk losing the gravy train. When you look at almost every grievance aired by FN spokespeople, they all come down to "give us more money". The real problem is that more money isn't the issue... better spending of current money is. Why are there well run bands in one part of the country and not in others? Why aren't the well off communities mentoring the less well off? I can't help but point out the example of the housing crisis where a $3M programme delivers 70K in services and has 2M in administration and salaries. Not exactly well run, and if done off reserve would lead to serious questions. I don't begrudge people earning a living, but the excess is, in a word, excessive.


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## a_majoor (8 Jan 2013)

Andre Coyne suggests the real issue is a split between factions of the Native community; between people who are working to modernize and adapt to the 21rst century (as suggested above) and those who have a vested interest in the grievance industry and will fight to the last taxpayer to secure their personal access to perques and power. 

While I suspect the Prime Minister and the Government are broadly in support of the reformers, perhaps the Prime Minister's style of "planting wedges" (to borrow from Kirkhill) and slowly moving up the trail created constrains him from more openly supporting the reformers; if they are seen to "win" on their own it makes their (and thus his) position that much stronger. I only wish I was blessed by such patience:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/07/andrew-coyne-idle-no-more-movement-is-a-dispute-between-rival-factions-in-the-aboriginal-community/



> *Andrew Coyne: Meeting with Harper won’t settle aboriginal people’s problems*
> 
> Andrew Coyne | Jan 7, 2013 8:56 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 8, 2013 8:54 AM ET
> More from Andrew Coyne | @acoyne
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2013)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> The second from the Band's Official Web Page
> 
> It's heavily redacted in a lot of places, but it raises some eyebrows - >   http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/551444-deloitte-audit.html
> 
> ...



sample #239
Purchases-Other
Description blacked out.
$1.79 million.
conclusion- no supporting documents.

Awesome.

I'm less mad at Mayor Spence and more mad at the government for not stopping this.


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Jan 2013)

You may remember that the government appointed an administrator to run the band's finances, but the band took the Feds to court and a judge ruled that there was no evidence of financial mismanagement and overruled the government.


----------



## Pandora114 (8 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> sample #239
> Purchases-Other
> Description blacked out.
> $1.79 million.
> ...



IMO, the government was afraid of the whole "ERMAHGERD RACIST" hue and cry if they did stop it, look at what's going on now.  Damned if they do, damned if they don't.  

I have a friend who lives pretty close to that reserve.  She says there's absolutely nothing wrong with any of the houses on that land, and it confuses her as to why the ones in the shanties refuse to live in them.  They're all pretty much empty.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> You may remember that the government appointed an administrator to run the band's finances, but the band took the Feds to court and a judge ruled that there was no evidence of financial mismanagement and overruled the government.



Wasn't that just very recently?  This has been an issue for a while.  

I wonder if the judge seen the audit that was just published. 400 out of 500 transactions having no documentation? Seems crazy.  I think Ottawa should hire administrators to go to these money sinkholes and make sure the money is being used appropriately.  If people refuse then stop sending money.


----------



## Bluebulldog (8 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> sample #239
> Purchases-Other
> Description blacked out.
> $1.79 million.
> ...



Sure, and the spin doctors would have just said, they cut our funding, and our people are forced to live in poverty - cut to scenes of shacks, shanties, and dilapadated houses, which they have lots of. This was a chief that was largely supported by the media until the bands finances, and her colossal mismanagement came to light recently. Had she not gone on a diet, called it a hunger strike, and chose to erect a teepee on Victoria Island, yet sleep in a hotel........the media at large would probably have still given her every support.

In a way, the INM movement, and her theatrics have been a benefit, it provided very little cover for her once the SH1t storm began, and the layers of BS were pulled back....now the mainstream media cannot refute what's being said, and neither can her or her handlers.......just what the Feds need to reign in what was obviously beyond their control before....and the public at large will then support it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2013)

I just don't understand why it took this long to come to light.  Why it took so long to even send an administrator up there.

I'd like to take a look at the Attawapiskat councils bank accounts or under their mattresses.


----------



## GAP (8 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Wasn't that just very recently?  This has been an issue for a while.
> 
> I wonder if the judge seen the audit that was just published. 400 out of 500 transactions having no documentation? Seems crazy.  I think Ottawa should hire administrators to go to these money sinkholes and make sure the money is being used appropriately.  If people refuse then stop sending money.



But....but...that means you don't trust them to handle their own money.....that's demeaning... :


----------



## Scott (8 Jan 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> But....but...that means you don't trust them to handle their own money.....that's demeaning... :



Nooooooooo, it's _racist_.


----------



## a_majoor (8 Jan 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> But....but...that means you don't trust them to handle their own money.....that's demeaning... :





			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Nooooooooo, it's _racist_.



And that is exactly the sort of objective and unbiased reporting you would get from most of the Legacy media, ObedientiaZelum, the very second you had brought up this issue before now.

This government is run by strategists, and since the revelationsabout Chief Spense's financial conduct have come to light the issue is now clearly tilted away from these memes. The Prime Minister, his cabinet the PMO and PCO can move forward with that threat neutralized. Look for some relatively simple "fixes" to come from this week's meeting with the AFN, in order to demonstrate real progress and build some momentum that further deflates the protesters and marginalizes them both on the reserves and in the media.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jan 2013)

>Perhaps we need to find "things" (rights, resources, access, etc) that are of similar comparative value in today's society to replace the original treaty rights. 

We already have it.  It's called "citizenship".  To each person, an identical set of responsibilities/duties and rights/entitlements.


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## jeffb (8 Jan 2013)

In my view there are two COAs here. 

COA 1: Give the First Nations whatever money they are entitled to under Treaties and have them self-administer. That way, when schools don't get built, drinking water isn't available and health problems abound they have no one to look at but themselves. 

COA 2: The federal government demands full accountability for financial transactions and takes full responsibility for the provision of services that in any other community are provided by local and provincial authorities. 

I suspect that many of the problems on reserves, and the tensions between First Nations people (as a distinct group from the chiefs) and the rest of society result from the blending of these two COAs. The problem is that money flows into these communities in addition to services. Thus, the band councils can always point back to Ottawa and say "yes they gave us some money but it wasn't for what you are mad about. They are supposed to provide that directly." In return, the people of the communities do not DEMAND accountability because it is much easier for them to be mad at faceless "Ottawa" rather then their neighbor on band council who is someone they probably have known their own life. Remember that most native communities are relatively small towns.  

One of the worst structures that an organization can find itself in is one where there are multiple lines of responsibility without clear delineation. If First Nations want to be treated as sovereign then the Federal government should do a lot more of option 1 and none of option 2 besides those services (such as defense, air accident investigation, etc) that it provides to any other province or municipality. 

My  :2c:


----------



## brihard (8 Jan 2013)

jeffb said:
			
		

> In my view there are two COAs here.
> 
> COA 1: Give the First Nations whatever money they are entitled to under Treaties and have them self-administer. That way, when schools don't get built, drinking water isn't available and health problems abound they have no one to look at but themselves.
> 
> ...



My vote's on number 2. Directly deliver education, healthcare, etc. Pay for it out of government coffers. That's the most accountable solution in my mind. Some may object because it leaves little scope for creative use of funds...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jan 2013)

I saw on Global news tonight that their news crew were ordered off the reserve or be arrested for tresspassing.....


----------



## GAP (8 Jan 2013)

Don't corrupt dictators in Africa and elsewhere do the same thing?


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## Pandora114 (8 Jan 2013)

http://www.oktlaw.com/blog/taking-a-second-look-at-those-attawapiskat-numbers/  where's that tiny violin smiley...

I need an advil after reading that.

 :brickwall: :stars:

All I have to say about Ms. Spence and her lackeys



> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (8 Jan 2013)

Here's my  :2c:

I think that we are at a cross roads in our Nation's History.  There is still lots of room for a peaceful solution to this.  However, if just one person from either side, makes a mistake, whether it is a leader or someone else there could be a tragedy.  

Saying this, though, the judge who ruled on the Sarnia Rail blockade was correct.  The rule of law must apply to everyone equally regardless of who they are.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/judge-slams-ontario-police-for-not-ending-first-nations-rail-blockade-1.1103669     <---- Here's the link


Still waiting for the response from Spence et al on where over $100M went since 2005.  And that audit was only a snap shot.  60 transaction from each year I believe.  So that's just the tip of the ice berg.

Well that's MHO for today.  Lets see what shenanigans shows up tomorrow.


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Jan 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I saw on Global news tonight that their news crew were ordered off the reserve or be arrested for tresspassing.....



Here is the report.

It's hard to imagine a worse PR blunder.

But I agree with MedTech32: this is a tense situation; as Andrew Coyne posited in the _National Post_ it might have more to do with tensions within the First Nations communities than between FNs and the Government of Canada. 

We, the Canadian mainstream, want to apply our _liberal_ (individual equality, etc) to a society that still, at some levels, anyway, harbours very _illiberal_ social values ~ collectivism and all that.

If Chief Spence forms part of the AFN delegation then I predict that the forthcoming 'conference' with Prime Minister Harper will be a disastrous failure for all concerned.


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Jan 2013)

And further, in a report, the _Globe and Mail_ says:

"Governor-General David Johnston announced on Tuesday that he would not be at Mr. Harper’s working meeting with key Assembly of First Nations leaders. As a result, Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, who called for the meeting in first place, said she might not go either."

Now that would actually be actually good news because Chief Spence is not, in any way, in this FOR First Nations, she's not even in it for the Attawapiskat First Nation, she's in it for Theresa Spence.

The GG will, very properly, not attend because his government ministers are there on his behalf but Chief Spence and most journalists are too ill educated to understand his role in all this. 

The _Globe and Mail_ report is headlined: Hopes fade that talks with PM will end Idle No More protests. The "hopes" are not "fading," there never were any hopes for any useful outcome, other than to pacify the media. This is meaningless media driven pap ~ all of it: Spence, Idle No More and the conference.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here is the report.
> 
> It's hard to imagine a worse PR blunder.
> 
> ...



Indeed.  Shades of a Third World Dictatorship, where the "great leader" decides everyone's fate in community. Act against her, and you lose your job, your house and may even be asked to leave the community (maybe the only community that you have ever known) forever- assuming that you don't end up dead in the bush first.

Of course, doing detailed investigative journalism about that type of scandal (a real human rights tragedy- not a trumped up one in Vancouver or Ottawa or Toronto) would take a type courage noticeably absent amongst Canadian journalist. Shame.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jan 2013)

This is the latest one making the rounds on Facebook.  I really hope this one gets exposed as a photoshop job most rikki tik.who would be stupid enough to make a sign like that in the iphone age?


----------



## Journeyman (9 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I really hope this one gets exposed as a photoshop job .....


 Pathetic. Obviously they don't have any 15 year old's working for them; pretty much any kid can navigate a computer program better than that.   :not-again:


The latest news update says that Chief Spence will definitely not attend the 'working group.'  For someone who was "willing to die" to meet with Harper, this sounds like "was told not to attend (ie - you're an embarrassment/you've done the cause enough damage)"

OK, the latest_ latest _news update says that Chief Spence _will_ attend the 'working group'...."provided her health is not an issue that day."   :


----------



## The_Falcon (9 Jan 2013)

I am still trying to fathom how there can be any meaningful consensus among 630 "Chiefs", or how people actually believe that is even remotely possible.  Hell the 10 Premeirs can barely agree on most things when making demands from the Feds


----------



## Pandora114 (9 Jan 2013)

I could do a better job than that, in MS Paint.

OY   :facepalm:


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (9 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> This is the latest one making the rounds on Facebook.  I really hope this one gets exposed as a photoshop job most rikki tik.who would be stupid enough to make a sign like that in the iphone age?



Worst photoshop ever;

1. A very quick Google search shows nothing
2. A Very quick search of CTVNews.ca shows nothing
3. Nation is not spelled NATHAN    :facepalm:
4. If you zoom in you can tell the image was altered


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2013)

Christie Blatchford provides sone background on the audit story which indicates the band had a less than stellar record of poor accounting procedures and that Chief Spence's boyfriend seems to be an accomplished spinmeister. The story, which is on the front page of today's National Post, is reproduced under the fair dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Attawapiskat audit reveals reserve finances in complete disarray

Christie Blatchford | Jan 8, 2013 6:39 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 8, 2013 7:09 PM ET

Reading the newly released Attawapiskat audit, coupled with the affidavit sworn last year by Clayton Kennedy, Chief Theresa Spence’s boyfriend and co-manager of the beleaguered reserve, I am reminded of one of my favourite episodes of the old Seinfeld series.

Kramer is pitching a scam to Jerry, whereby he wants Jerry to claim his broken stereo, which Kramer has conveniently insured, was damaged in transit, and thus get the post office to pay for it.

Jerry objects, albeit feebly, and Kramer protests that “It’s a write-off for them.”

“How is it a write-off?” Jerry asks.

“They just write it off,” Kramer replies.

“Write off what?” Jerry says, then snorts, “You don’t even know what a write-off is, do you?”

“Do you?” Kramer asks.

“No, I don’t,” says Jerry.

“But they do,” Kramer explains slowly. “And they’re the ones writing it off.”

I was put to mind of this by a couple of the regularly occurring “account descriptions” in the Deloitte and Touche audit so much in the news — “write-offs,” to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars in some cases, and “writedowns” — all with the regularly occurring descriptors, vendor “unknown” and “incomplete documentation” or “No supporting documentation.”

In these instances, the auditors could find little or nothing to support the expenditures, apparently not even the name of the firm or person who was paid.

At bottom, the auditors found completely inadequate policies and practices in place and poor oversight of the $104-million in taxpayer funding that has flowed to Attawapiskat between April of 2005 and November of 2011.

And yet, in the affidavit he swore in December of 2011 — this in support of the band’s successful fight to overturn Ottawa’s moving it from co-management status to third-party management — Mr. Kennedy modestly sang his own praises as the steady financial hand.

He was in charge for the last two years the auditors examined, as was Chief Spence for most of the same time. She was elected Aug. 27, 2010, but for the previous three years, was deputy chief.

As Attawapiskat’s chief financial guy, Mr. Kennedy told the court, he’d brought in bank reconciliation procedures, reformed sketchy accounting practices and generally done a bang-up job.

He even referred to the band’s last regular audit, dated July 31, 2011, noting it was filed on time and complied with various policies, a claim that seems on a par with those hotels which brag of “high-speed elevators.”

It doesn’t appear, alas, that Mr. Kennedy mentioned the standard “management letter” the band’s Timmins-based accountants, Ross, Pope and Company, sent along with that audit, or the big fat red flag the local firm raised in the audit itself.

In the letter, the accountants identified “matters that may be of interest to management,” which is putting it kindly.

What they told Mr. Kennedy, who by then had been on the job for a year, was that the records were still in terrible shape — invoices weren’t being properly recorded; band assets such as the water plant and healing lodge had no insurance; rent arrears and welfare payments weren’t being respectively collected or documented; accounts payable records were out of whack and “many general journal entries had no supporting documents. When asked for explanations of the entries, often, none could be provided.”

Oh, and the Timmins auditors said, — the band had done no, ah, budget.

“We believe that the First Nation has an urgent need for a budget,” the letter said, with masterful understatement.

But apparently, in auditor-world, what was much more unusual and a much more important warning bell was what’s called the “going concern” note the Timmins firm included in its notes to the band’s consolidated financial statements.

This note pointed out that Attawapiskat’s objectives “are to continue as a going concern,” pointed out that at year end it had both a working capital deficiency of almost $4-million and a net debt of $11-million, and concluded that “the ability of the First Nation to continue as a going concern” was rather up in the air.

In other words, if the band wasn’t careful, it was going to be bankrupt — surely prima facie evidence of lousy financial management at the very least.

This, and of course the larger, multi-year audit done by Deloitte and Touche, surely cast a different light on Ottawa’s efforts last year — after the reserve’s desperate housing situation first came to light and Chief Spence declared an emergency and the story was all over the news — to put the band under independent third-party management, the most severe remedy available to the government.

Ottawa did that — managing to appoint as the third party a company that had earlier been fired by council — in November of 2011. The First Nation went to Federal Court and had the takeover ruled “unreasonable” in August of 2012, by which point Ottawa already had removed the designation.

Given what both the local auditors had found before the case was heard, and what Deloitte and Touche found afterwards, it is nothing short of astonishing that, as the Federal Court judge noted, the government didn’t produce “evidence of mismanagement or incorrect spending.”

It was as part of that court case that Mr. Kennedy and Chief Spence both swore affidavits, available online on the Attawapiskat website.

Mr. Kennedy thoughtfully included a copy of his latest contract between Attawapiskat and his company, Moo Shum Enterprises Inc., which pays him $850 a day plus expenses.

The document, dated July of 2011, begins with a preamble that incudes a statement of principles, one of which reads as follows: “Both parties [the band and Mr. Kennedy] are not aware of any past or present relationship between the First Nation and the Co-Manager that may be thought to be a conflict of interest.”

Gee: The Chief and Mr. Kennedy were already common-law partners, or life partners as they prefer, and presumably sleeping together. But no one was aware that could “be thought to be a conflict of interest”?

To borrow from Kramer, well, they know what it is, and they’re the ones agreeing it isn’t, or something.


----------



## Container (9 Jan 2013)

Heres the original sign:

http://www.firstnations.eu/img/06-3-2-no-indians.jpg

Youll note it isnt a mountie holding it. And its written in the same style and font as this one:

http://www.firstnations.eu/img/06-3-2-centre.jpg

Also from the same protest

From 2004:

http://www.firstnations.eu/development/secwepemc-skwelkwekwelt.htm

Youll note the same people and video cameras recording the serving of the injunctions etc.


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Jan 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/08/pol-governor-general-first-nations-friday-meeting.html

So Spence, being faced with what she asked for, indicates that she wont attend unless the GG is there, as he's integral to the process.

Sounds to me like she has no clue what she wants, and / or how to go about extricating herself from the quagmire she has created. She of course should have been told by her more educated "handlers" that the GG is pretty well a ceremonial position, and bears no impact whatsoever on any policy in this Country.

In a laughable show, they say that she'll attend, then wont. And then indicate that they've sent a letter to Buckingham Palace asking the Queen to send her representative.

I don't know whether it's sheer gall that Spence has, or abject ignorance, either way, it's making her show on the Rideau look more ridiculous with each passing hour.

Still waiting for Scott's prediction to come true........sadly she is probably now, more than ever trying to avoid going home......where the other sh!tstorm awaits......


----------



## a_majoor (9 Jan 2013)

Like many third world dictators, she could get on a plane to exile in a "friendly" country. Iran apparently expressed support for the First Nations causes, and would certainly extend an invitation for Spence, her boyfriend and their bank accounts to take up residence, at least so long as they could supply embarrassing shows of support for Iran against the actions of the Canadian Government....


----------



## krustyrl (9 Jan 2013)

In "exile" anywhere but here is just fine by me.!     :nod:


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Jan 2013)

Really? Good grief......

I wonder how long they'd be allowed to remain when the bank account ran dry, and the 15 minutes of fame were up.........


----------



## a_majoor (9 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Really? Good grief......
> 
> I wonder how long they'd be allowed to remain when the bank account ran dry, and the 15 minutes of fame were up.........



Not my problem at that point. Perhaps Al Jezeera could hire them on as financial affairs correspondents.... >


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Not my problem at that point. Perhaps Al Jezeera could hire them on as financial affairs correspondents.... >



...perfect......


----------



## The_Falcon (9 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/01/08/pol-governor-general-first-nations-friday-meeting.html
> 
> So Spence, being faced with what she asked for, indicates that she wont attend unless the GG is there, as he's integral to the process.
> 
> ...



Anyone else catch this part "The key demand of Spence, who has been declining solid food since Dec.11 as a form of protest, ", sifted through the rest of the article and their is only one mention of the phrase "hunger strike".  That's what actually impressed me the most about this article considering its length and its from the CBC.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2013)

Lawrence Martin demonstrates in this column that the Liberals and perhaps much of the media knew about but were unwilling to address the issue of mismanagement of resources on many reserves. He then comes very close to accusing the [hated by him] Harper government of deliberately derailing the struggle for aboriginal rights by releasing the results of the audit. The piece from the Globe and Mail is reproduced under the Fair Comment provisions of the Copyright Act.


Another tragic chapter in Canada’s aboriginal saga? 

LAWRENCE MARTIN 

Special to The Globe and Mail

Published Tuesday, Jan. 08 2013, 7:00 AM EST 

Last updated Tuesday, Jan. 08 2013, 7:00 AM EST 

Back in the days of Jean Chrétien’s government, I recall talking to a very senior player about the issue of accountability on first nation reserves. The Canadian Alliance was probing the matter, and there were allegations, nothing too specific, about spending abuses. Money disappearing down a black hole, that kind of thing.

Raising it with the Chrétien official, I recall being surprised when he said there was a basis for many of the allegations. It was a potentially a major scandal, he said. So why, I asked, was no one probing it? Too sensitive, he said. “We’d be accused of racism.”

Given the abject conditions faced by native people, it wasn’t an issue the government – or many journalists, for that matter – wished to investigate. It was politically incorrect to go there.

Now with the revelation – did a member of the Harper circle leak the story? – of no documentation for millions spent at Chief Theresa Spence’s Attawapiskat First Nation, the potentially explosive issue is on the table. A broiling controversy on first nations spending, one that could be broadened to include many reserves, would spell disaster. It’s the last thing the first nations need at this time.

It’s a different era. Native people don’t have the ear of the government the way they did before. Mr. Chrétien always had a big place in his heart for them. He was the minister of Indian affairs and northern development in Pierre Trudeau’s government in the late 1960s and early 1970s. He and his wife, Aline, adopted a native son, Michel, at that time. Michel careened from one crisis to another – with the law, with alcohol, with employment. The Chrétiens saw the sorrows first-hand.

In the landmark 1995 budget that broke the back of the huge federal deficit, Mr. Chrétien and his finance minister, Paul Martin, spared one department from the draconian cuts: Indian affairs.

When Mr. Martin became prime minister, first nations were one of his priorities. He negotiated the Kelowna Accord, which provided major new investments for education, housing, health services, clean water and more. Although he was criticized by some as just throwing more money at the problem – the standard Liberal methodology, Conservatives charged – it was Mr. Martin’s pride and joy. To his dismay, one of the first things Stephen Harper’s government did was scrap the accord. But in his post-prime ministerial years, Mr. Martin, who visited the hunger-striking Chief Spence on the weekend, has devoted great amounts of time and energy to aboriginal causes.

The approaches of Mr. Chrétien and Mr. Martin are noted because, if leaders with such sympathies couldn’t make much progress on aboriginal problems, it gives us an idea how intractable those problems are.

Mr. Harper came out of the Reform movement, which was known to take a less compassionate approach. He has been low profile on native issues, a major exception being his emotional 2008 apology for abuses suffered at residential schools. It was the NDP’s Jack Layton who had prodded him on the file, eventually getting his agreement to make the move.

Under the Conservatives, first nations have not been spared budget cuts. They say the cuts have hurt badly. But even if there’s more money and it’s wisely spent, money isn’t the solution to what ails native people. The problems, the controversies – on housing, health care, alcoholism, land claims, resource revenue, resource exploitation – are too many to count.

The Idle No More movement and Chief Spence’s hunger strike have served the purpose of bringing the issues to the forefront with a Conservative government they claim has been hostile to their interests. It’s hoped that a meeting with the Prime Minister on Friday will set a new working agenda for action. If that agenda is compromised or derailed by revelations of a spending scandal on the reserves, another tragic chapter in our aboriginal saga is upon us.


----------



## George Wallace (9 Jan 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Anyone else catch this part "The key demand of Spence, who has been declining solid food since Dec.11 as a form of protest, ", sifted through the rest of the article and their is only one mention of the phrase "hunger strike".  That's what actually impressed me the most about this article considering its length and its from the CBC.



Perhaps her "Key demand" is that people actually believe she is on a hunger strike.


----------



## Jed (9 Jan 2013)

Maybe Chief Spence should be like Puss 'n Boots and go to London and visit the Queen.


----------



## Robert0288 (9 Jan 2013)

I don't know if I should have posted this in 'Dumbest things I've heard today thread'  But I figured it was more relevant here.



> *Chief Theresa Spence's Heroism Already Eclipses Nelson Mandela's *
> Obert Madondo
> 
> Hunger-striking Attawapiskat First Nation Chief Theresa Spence is the reincarnation of Mahatma Ghandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. She is becoming the greatest moral and political leader of our time. In fact, Chief Theresa Spence's courage and sacrifice already eclipses that of South Africa's globally-celebrated anti-apartheid icon, Nelson Mandela.
> ...


----------



## Scott (9 Jan 2013)

I've said it a couple of times now on Fascebook: I could never understand it when people tried to tell me what being high is like. After reading that waste of space I now do.


----------



## Remius (9 Jan 2013)

So let's see.  Now they are minimising Nelson Mandela to prop up Hotel dwelling, solid food striker/failed diet attempt Chief Spence?

I am officially done with this farce.  I really need Walking Dead to return soon so I can get some real drama...


----------



## medicineman (9 Jan 2013)

We sure this wasn't written for Duffleblog or national Lampoon?

MM


----------



## my72jeep (9 Jan 2013)

This just in. reproduced under the Fair Comment provisions of the Copyright Act.

Chief Theresa Spence pulls out of meeting with Harper.
That's it. Call off the hunger strike, Chief Theresa Spence is refusing to meet with Stephen Harper.
 The Attawapiskat First Nations chief, who launched a hunger strike 29 days ago to force the prime minister into a meeting with First Nation leaders, is now refusing to attend that very meeting.
More at link


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/chief-theresa-spence-pulls-meeting-harper-spokesperson-says-170941464.html


----------



## Remius (9 Jan 2013)

Her bluff has been called.  This thing is over.  I hope they crucify her in the media.


----------



## my72jeep (9 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Her bluff has been called.  This thing is over.  I hope they crucify her in the media.


I hope her own counsel crucify her she has exposed their cushy jobs and fat bank accounts.


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Her bluff has been called.  This thing is over.  I hope they crucify her in the media.



I hope that once the cameras stop rolling, there is a concerned group of Federal Govt. auditors, RCMP, and a very lengthy inquiry into Empress Spence's spending and use of Federal funds.........ok.....and crucify her.....maybe even literally.


----------



## Robert0288 (9 Jan 2013)

medicineman said:
			
		

> We sure this wasn't written for Duffleblog or national Lampoon?
> 
> MM



That was my initial thought.  I'm still not sure if  it there was a punchline and was just obscured by overt stupidity.


----------



## Danjanou (9 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I don't know if I should have posted this in 'Dumbest things I've heard today thread'  But I figured it was more relevant here.
> 
> *Chief Theresa Spence's Heroism Already Eclipses Nelson Mandela's *
> Obert Madondo
> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/obert-madondo/chief-theresa-spences-her_b_2408049.html



Gee check His bio out:



> Obert is the founder and publisher of the Canadian Progressive. Fearless and passionate activist, progressive political blogger, writer, journalist, publisher. Former speechwriter to Margaret Dongo, a former Independent Zimbabwean MP. Former senior international development executive with the Konrad Adenauer Foundation, a Germany international development agency, and CAP AIDS, a Canadian charity. Accomplished public speaker.
> 
> Published or quoted here: The Huffington Post, CBC News, Ottawa Citizen, The Canadian Progressive, Toronto Sun, *Rabble.ca*, Metro News, The Charlatan, EMC Kanata, The Dominion, Ground Report, AfricaFiles & New Zimbabwe
> Canadian Progressive. Obert is driven by these issues: social justice, equality, progressive politics, immigration, war on drugs, homelessness, criminal justice system, public policy, foreign policy and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.



 :


----------



## Pandora114 (9 Jan 2013)

> She can demand Harper and Johnson dance Gangnam-style, up to the front of her tent on Ottawa's Victoria Island for all it matters now.



Best...One liner..evar.

I hope they do that.  I really do.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2013)

Chief Spence is now calling for the cancellation of the Friday meeting because the GG will not be there, according to this CTV report reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act. 


Spence calls for cancellation of First Nations meeting over GG's absence

Published Wednesday, Jan. 9, 2013 11:01AM EST 
Last Updated Wednesday, Jan. 9, 2013 1:40PM EST 

Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence is calling on the Assembly of First Nations to cancel Friday’s summit with the federal government unless the governor general agrees to attend, CTV News has learned.

Spence says she will not participate in the upcoming First Nations meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper after learning that Governor General David Johnston will not attend the meeting. But she went a step further Wednesday, asking that the AFN outright cancel the meeting due to the vice-regal’s absence.

Spence has become the de facto face of the growing aboriginal rights’ protests – collectively known as Idle No More -- taking place across the country after launching a liquids-only diet nearly a month ago. Spence’s campaign was an effort to secure a face-to-face meeting with both Prime Minister Harper and Johnston, and she earlier said she would continue the hunger strike until the meeting takes place.

Harper announced last week that he would meet with First Nations leaders on Jan. 11 as part of a working meeting co-ordinated by the AFN. However, a spokesperson for the Governor General said Tuesday Johnston wouldn’t attend the meeting, calling into question Spence’s attendance.

“We have sent a letter to Buckingham Palace and requesting that Queen Elizabeth II send forth her representative which is the Governor General of Canada,” said Spence in a statement released Wednesday. “I will not be attending Friday’s meeting with the Prime Minister, as the Governor General’s attendance is integral when discussing inherent and treaty rights,” she said.

It is not clear if Spence will continue her hunger strike, even if the meeting goes ahead as planned Friday.

Spence has kept a low-profile this week after a critical federal audit of finances of her northern Ontario reserve was released Monday. The independent audit – ordered last year by the federal government -- highlighted a lack of documentation for tens of millions of dollars in spending.

“Theresa Spence is really not in the strong position she was in last week, or even earlier this week, before that audit was released,” CTV’s Mercedes Stephenson told CTV News Channel on Wednesday. “It seems that everything has collapsed in from there.”

After the audit was released, a number of journalists were turned away from Spence’s camp on Victoria Island on the Ottawa River.

Spence's spokespeople said the release of the Attawapiskat audit was an attempt to distract the public from the bigger issues at hand.

First Nations leaders are expected to discuss the federal government’s omnibus budget bill and its effect on treaty rights during Friday’s meeting.

Assembly of First Nations National Chief Shawn Atleo is holding a news conference Thursday where he is expected to outline what he hopes to see accomplished at Friday’s highly-publicized meeting.

The press conference was originally planned for Wednesday, but was later postponed.

Meanwhile, a newly-released Angus Reid public opinion poll shows the majority of Canadians don’t believe the upcoming meeting will be successful in improving the relationship between the country’s First Nations peoples and the federal government.

The poll, released Wednesday, showed that 55 per cent of more than 1,000 respondents say the meeting will be ineffective, while 43 per cent found that the relationship between the federal government and Aboriginal Peoples has worsened since 2006.


----------



## Journeyman (9 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> CTV:
> ...Spence has become the *de facto face* of the growing aboriginal rights’ protests...


I believe that typo should read ..."de facto farce"...    :nod:


----------



## my72jeep (9 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I believe that typo should read ..."de facto farce"...    :nod:


 :nod: MP's inbound.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Jan 2013)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> :nod: MP's inbound.



You sent the cops after JM?  Wow, that's harsh....


----------



## my72jeep (9 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You sent the cops after JM?  Wow, that's harsh....



 :facepalm:


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Jan 2013)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> :facepalm:



Never mind.....   :


----------



## Remius (9 Jan 2013)

Spence and her handlers had a plan.  but it has been completely derailed.  She never expected for second that the PM would meet with her.  which is why she made the demand to start with.  It played to her base and to the media.  After all she's up against big bad Harper.  She was going to keep up her diet until it was convieniant to collapse or some other theatrical show and solidify her name.  But with the release of the well timed audit and the PM agreeing to meet with her now, everything is screwed up.  It's too early for the fake collapse and she certainly can't stop her new year's resolution diet.  She can't meet with Harper because she never thought she would have to and likely, truly has nothing real or constructive to say or ask for other than whatever platitudes about dialogue she's been vomitting from her tee-pee.  No, now the plan is to use the convienient excuse about the GG to continue with her original plan, collapse or be taken "forcefully" againts her will by her handlers to some aboriginal healing centre where they will declare how close she came but is recovering.  No actual real doctor will confirm anything.  the media will be shooed away citing her health and hopefully the questions about her incompetence will go away.  Her mouthpiece will declare whatever meeting that happens without her a failure.  

I'm calling this.


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Jan 2013)

No one who's been following this thread would take that bet. You sir, have pretty well got it spot on as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Spence and her handlers had a plan.  but it has been completely derailed.  She never expected for second that the PM would meet with her.  which is why she made the demand to start with.  It played to her base and to the media.  After all she's up against big bad Harper.  She was going to keep up her diet until it was convieniant to collapse or some other theatrical show and solidify her name.  But with the release of the well timed audit and the PM agreeing to meet with her now, everything is screwed up.  It's too early for the fake collapse and she certainly can't stop her new year's resolution diet.  She can't meet with Harper because she never thought she would have to and likely, truly has nothing real or constructive to say or ask for other than whatever platitudes about dialogue she's been vomitting from her tee-pee.  No, now the plan is to use the convienient excuse about the GG to continue with her original plan, collapse or be taken "forcefully" againts her will by her handlers to some aboriginal healing centre where they will declare how close she came but is recovering.  No actual real doctor will confirm anything.  the media will be shooed away citing her health and hopefully the questions about her incompetence will go away.  Her mouthpiece will declare whatever meeting that happens without her a failure.
> 
> I'm calling this.




 :goodpost:

You've nailed it Cranton. This was a PR stunt, timed, by a media savvy lady, for the "slow news" Xmas holiday period ~ but she bumped into some media pros: the boys and girls from the Conservative Party "news management" team and they have washed the floor with her.


----------



## my72jeep (9 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> You've nailed it Cranton. This was a PR stunt, timed, by a media savvy lady, for the "slow news" Xmas holiday period ~ but she bumped into some media pros: the boys and girls from the Conservative Party "news management" team and they have washed the floor with her.


Washed the floor with her.........Ew that sounds messy.


----------



## jeffb (9 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> You've nailed it Cranton. This was a PR stunt, timed, by a media savvy lady, for the "slow news" Xmas holiday period ~ but she bumped into some media pros: the boys and girls from the Conservative Party "news management" team and they have washed the floor with her.



Agreed that Crantor has nailed it but there is still significant sympathy for her on the left. Most people do not understand the difference between the Idle no More protests and her media stunt. This is part of a wider media story of the victimization of natives at the hands of the rest of Canada. The details of an audit that clearly shows how "innovative" a manager she is, to put it in a way that will not get me sued, or the fact that her hunger strike is not actually a diet is probably not well known to most people. Anyone who is paying attention realizes that Crantor is right but I suspect that the vast majority are not.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jan 2013)

Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?


----------



## Pandora114 (9 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?



Tasty steak and beef jerky treats?


----------



## Infanteer (9 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Spence and her handlers had a plan.  but it has been completely derailed.  She never expected for second that the PM would meet with her.  which is why she made the demand to start with.  It played to her base and to the media.  After all she's up against big bad Harper.  She was going to keep up her diet until it was convieniant to collapse or some other theatrical show and solidify her name.  But with the release of the well timed audit and the PM agreeing to meet with her now, everything is screwed up.  It's too early for the fake collapse and she certainly can't stop her new year's resolution diet.  She can't meet with Harper because she never thought she would have to and likely, truly has nothing real or constructive to say or ask for other than whatever platitudes about dialogue she's been vomitting from her tee-pee.  No, now the plan is to use the convienient excuse about the GG to continue with her original plan, collapse or be taken "forcefully" againts her will by her handlers to some aboriginal healing centre where they will declare how close she came but is recovering.  No actual real doctor will confirm anything.  the media will be shooed away citing her health and hopefully the questions about her incompetence will go away.  Her mouthpiece will declare whatever meeting that happens without her a failure.
> 
> I'm calling this.



I like the cut of your jib.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (9 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Gee check His bio out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (9 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You've nailed it Cranton. This was a PR stunt, timed, by a media savvy lady, for the "slow news" Xmas holiday period ~ but she bumped into some media pros: the boys and girls from the Conservative Party "news management" team and they have washed the floor with her.



I wonder how much of this was of her doing, or whether she had some help in the background. We've already had reports that the blockade in Sarnia had outside, non-native help; may be some that was also present with Chief Spence.


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Jan 2013)

Anyone want to take a bet that the GG may actually drop by informally, on short notice, to chat briefly with the meeting attendees?


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jan 2013)

Go Christie  

Christie Blatchford: Attawapiskat audit reveals reserve finances in complete disarray


Reading the newly released Attawapiskat audit, coupled with the affidavit sworn last year by Clayton Kennedy, Chief Theresa Spence’s boyfriend and co-manager of the beleaguered reserve, I am reminded of one of my favourite episodes of the old Seinfeld series.

Kramer is pitching a scam to Jerry, whereby he wants Jerry to claim his broken stereo, which Kramer has conveniently insured, was damaged in transit, and thus get the post office to pay for it.

Jerry objects, albeit feebly, and Kramer protests that “It’s a write-off for them.”

“How is it a write-off?” Jerry asks.

“They just write it off,” Kramer replies.

“Write off what?” Jerry says, then snorts, “You don’t even know what a write-off is, do you?”

“Do you?” Kramer asks.

“No, I don’t,” says Jerry.

“But they do,” Kramer explains slowly. “And they’re the ones writing it off.”

I was put to mind of this by a couple of the regularly occurring “account descriptions” in the Deloitte and Touche audit so much in the news — “write-offs,” to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars in some cases, and “writedowns” — all with the regularly occurring descriptors, vendor “unknown” and “incomplete documentation” or “No supporting documentation.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/08/christie-blatchford-attawapiskat-audit-reveals-reserve-finances-in-complete-disarray/


----------



## a_majoor (10 Jan 2013)

More trouble from the court system. Expect thousands of people to suddenly "discover" their Indian heritage thanks to this ruling. Anyone who watched the antics in Nfld a while back when a tribe was legaly resurrected there (despite the fact the native population had been exterminated long in the past) would have seen what was coming at once:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/10/tasha-kheiriddin-the-problems-with-the-daniels-decision/



> *Tasha Kheiriddin: The problems with the Daniels decision*
> 
> Tasha Kheiriddin | Jan 10, 2013 12:01 AM ET | Last Updated: Jan 9, 2013 6:28 PM ET
> More from Tasha Kheiriddin
> ...


----------



## GAP (10 Jan 2013)

This actually may be the way to do away with the reserve system. If there is no impact on leaving the reserves, there's no reason to sustain them to the lengths we do.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?



Nigerian Scam Artist comes to mind.  A Canadian version.


----------



## Old Sweat (10 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?



Chinese takeout?


----------



## my72jeep (10 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?


Cree- Moo Shum   English- Fuck the white Government


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2013)

I've looked and I can't find what they do anywhere. One of Spencer defenders made a post about how inaccurate the $850 a day claim is. This guy went on to say his contract is only for 3weeks a month, at $850 a day. Not 4 weeks. Now it makes total sense  :

I'm still curious what this consulting company actually does. 



http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/blog.html?b=fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/08/john-ivison-theresa-spences-hunger-strike-obscures-the-key-first-nations-issue-resource-revenue-sharing



> There is hope for the future of relations between natives and non-natives in Canada.It is embodied in leaders like Glen Nolan, a former Cree chief from Northern Ontario, who is the president of the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada.He doesn’t support the Idle No More movement because he says he’s never been idle. “There are too many examples of [native] individuals and communities who have broken away from the notion that government is there to look out for them,” he said.Attempting to get at the truth involves abandoning stereotypes and clichés. That is hard when the subject matter conforms to easily attached labels, like Theresa Spence, the chief of another Cree community in Attawapiskat, who points the finger of blame at Ottawa with one hand, while extending the other for more handouts.It is a welcome reminder when more sober voices like Mr. Nolan point out that many First Nations reject dependency on transfers from the federal government.


----------



## Teflon (10 Jan 2013)

> Agreed that Crantor has nailed it but there is still significant sympathy for her on the left.



I believe that as far as the "Left" is concerned, it is more of significant "Anything Against Harper" then significant sympathy for her


----------



## GR66 (10 Jan 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> This actually may be the way to do away with the reserve system. If there is no impact on leaving the reserves, there's no reason to sustain them to the lengths we do.



Not that I think it would actually happen, but in my opinion it would be nice to break the direct link between the Reservations and residency for First Nations peoples.  Have the Reserve lands owned in some type of trust for the members and allow them to use the resources there for income or lease use of the property for development, etc with the income from the Trust put to use by the members as they decide.  The band members would then have the freedom to live wherever they wish without losing their rights by moving off the Reserve.  

Other rights such as education and healthcare could be handled in a way more similar to transfer payments to the Provinces.  Give a base per capita amount to the First Nations and allow them to set up and deliver the programs for those members that elect to remain resident on the Reserves.  I'd be willing to allow the Reserves (collectively) to elect member(s) to Parliament based on their numbers and have a Senate seat in return for paying Federal Taxes...and the Reserves in return could be granted the power to collect taxes similar to Provincial and Municipal governments.

So long as First Nations peoples have to stay on Reserves (which are for the most part economically unviable for the numbers of people that reside there in relation to their ability to generate income from the resources present) in order to obtain their treaty benefits they will continue to be reliant on benefits and handouts.  We need to give up some control and accept that in doing so there will be mistakes made in the process.  We'll also have to pay more in the short term to help them make the transition away from dependence but it would be worth it in the long term in my opinion. 

Like I said though...can't see it happening in my lifetime.   :-[


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> ....................  I'd be willing to allow the Reserves (collectively) to elect member(s) to Parliament based on their numbers and ...................




They are not disenfranchised from electing members of Parliament.  First Nations peoples are just equal as any other Canadian to vote.  They do have representation in Parliament.  There are even First Nations members in most, if not all, the sitting Parties in the House.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

Holy FLASHBACK time! 

From the Sun Editorial/Comment section:

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/09/first-nations-ill-served-by-media-darlings-like-chief-theresa-spence







> *First Nations ill-served by media darlings like Chief Theresa Spence *
> QMI Agency
> 
> First posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 08:00 PM EST | Updated: Thursday, January 10, 2013 07:34 AM EST
> ...


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what exactly Moo Shum Enterprises Inc is about?



Found it here:



> Kennedy went to work as an accountant in 1979, managing the George Jeffrey Children's Centre in Thunder Bay, Ont., for about 15 years, the court document says.
> 
> According to the affidavit, he also holds a two-year certificate in health-care administration from Ottawa-based Certified Health Services Executives, which he says he completed around 1997.
> 
> ...



More at link

Why, oh why am I not surprised??   :


----------



## newwifey (10 Jan 2013)

It was announced that the GG will be meeting with the Chiefs during a press conference that was held in Manitoba earlier today.


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Jan 2013)

newwifey said:
			
		

> It was announced that the GG will be meeting with the Chiefs during a press conference that was held in Manitoba earlier today.




Yes, but it will, properly, be a purely ceremonial event, after and very separate from the working meeting with ministers.

There are some important _Constitutional conventions_ that need to be observed and the Government (GG+Cabinet) has reached an elegant and Constitutionally acceptable solution with a separate, purely ceremonial meeting.


----------



## newwifey (10 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Yes, but it will, properly, be a purely ceremonial event, after and very separate from the working meeting with ministers.
> 
> There are some important _Constitutional conventions_ that need to be observed and the Government (GG+Cabinet) has reached an elegant and Constitutionally acceptable solution with a separate, purely ceremonial meeting.



It was unclear at the time, just an announcement, but you are probably right.

If you can find a recording of the live news conference, I recommend.  In a nutshell they are supporting Chief Spence (as well as the others on hunger strikes), demanding an end to Colonial rule (not a request) and that if the GG did not take part they would not be present at the meeting and that we'd likely see more Chiefs from other areas making the same type of announcements.  It was interesting listening.


----------



## Journeyman (10 Jan 2013)

newwifey said:
			
		

> In a nutshell they are supporting Chief Spence (as well as the others on hunger strikes), demanding an end to Colonial rule (not a request) and that if the GG did not take part, we'd likely see more Chiefs from other areas making the same type of announcements.


Was the announcement drafted by Shakespeare?  

As in: 
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. 
And then is heard no more: it is a tale. 
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, 
Signifying nothing.  


 :  <---  me, finding it more and more difficult to care. Their political capital is increasingly spent.


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Jan 2013)

newwifey said:
			
		

> It was unclear at the time, just an announcement, but you are probably right.
> 
> If you can find a recording of the live news conference, I recommend.  In a nutshell they are supporting Chief Spence (as well as the others on hunger strikes), demanding an end to Colonial rule (not a request) and that if the GG did not take part they would not be present at the meeting and that we'd likely see more Chiefs from other areas making the same type of announcements.  It was interesting listening.




I think it is important to read a lot. I am anything but knowledgable but my reading says that some Chiefs support Spence, others are somewhere between embarrassed and furious at her cheap theatrics.

My opinion: this is a win for the Prime Minister ~ he will spend an hour or two with the Chiefs, outlining his his agenda; then he and the most of the media will depart and he will then leave with the Minister and the bureaucrats to discuss their agenda. No new money will be committed to anything, except for some new audits. In the evening the GG will give the Chiefs coffee and cakes on the everyday china and refuse to hear a single substantive word anyone might want to say.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2013/01/20130110-122239.html


I am tired of this "BLACKMAIL".

I think that this BS will only further alienate the Taxpayers who are "supporting" them and further radicalize non-FN members of the population.  Will we see armed citizens in the streets attacking the barricades that the INM movement set up?  I doubt it.  Not with legally acquired weapons, anyway.  We cater to their every wish.  I think that those days will slowly be coming to an end.  People are getting fed up with this BS, and the more BS like this they pull, the quicker the day of reckoning will come.


----------



## Rifleman62 (10 Jan 2013)

I am tired of it also, but there is little hope that 1.2 million Indians will stop blackmailing 33 million Canadians. After all they learned from the very best: Quebec. It is the Canadian way.

From SDA  http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/

*News Shaping vs. News Reporting*

The following should be a primer for all Journalism 101 students:


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

Funny.   I see some family resemblance there.  Could it be?    >


----------



## larry Strong (10 Jan 2013)

Just had to post that on FB


Larry


----------



## PuckChaser (10 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Funny.   I see some family resemblance there.  Could it be?    >



Rob Ford for mayor of Attawapiskat?  8)


----------



## Remius (10 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Rob Ford for mayor of Attawapiskat?  8)



Chief Spence for mayor of Toronto?   ;D


----------



## uptheglens (10 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Chief Spence for mayor of Toronto?   ;D



If it wouldn't be so damned heavy on my wallet, I'd say that that is two groups who absolutely deserve each other, as they both disappear up their own respective a**holes.


----------



## newwifey (10 Jan 2013)

Theresa Spence will still not be attending the meeting tomorrow.  Because the PM and GG are to attend the meeting together, not separately.

Further to that, if the GG and PM don't stay for the full meeting, there may not be a meeting.

video attached in case I missed something else in the details.
http://www.cbc.ca/video/watch/News/Politics/Power & Politics/ID=2324468297

I'm curious, when will it be enough??  
I've appreciated the dialogue here, without the racial bashing and constant racist slinging as there is elsewhere.


----------



## krustyrl (10 Jan 2013)

She seems to be making a mockery of the PM, GG and the Gov't of Canada.!  I, for one am fed up hearing her name. Somebody please toss in a few BK Whoppers  into her lodging and maybe add a "diet coke" to wash them down and call it a day.!!!  

Theresa Spence....your 15 mins are now up.!    

Note:  Wonder if there will be any sort of inquiry to the lack of paper trail of the money and its purpose.?


----------



## mikeninercharlie (10 Jan 2013)

I'm betting the Boss ain't buying her story either...


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2013)

Diet Coke?....Diet Coke only has a minimal amount less of calories than regular Coke, but way more carcinogens..... >


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## krustyrl (10 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Diet Coke?....Diet Coke only has a minimal amount less of calories than regular Coke, but way more carcinogens..... >



Either way George, it's making me   :boke:

(but mikeninercharlie's post is spot on.!!!)


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2013)

Yes, but it makes us fatties feel like we're doing something to mitigate the 9 piece family meal and quart of slaw from KFC.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2013)

They sound like children.  It looks like the care more about making the government loose face with this concession and that concession,  than helping anyone.

It's vital that a mayor the size of a small village attends because she mismanaged millions of dollars and committed a HUGE fuck off conflict of interest hiring her boyfriend to get his hands dirty with the money mismanagement? We totally need her at that meeting I'm sure she has LOTS to contribute. She's clearly worried about her people.

Pay no attention to how fast they closed the castle gates and bullied away the media (who previously they couldn't speak to enough) when that audit was published. 

I hope Canadians read between the lines with all the bullshit threats about attacking the economy and warriors rising up and the guy from the CBC link above blatantly saying violence is an option.

Hopefully if violence erupts our police forces won't take their cue from the Sarnia police.


----------



## a_majoor (11 Jan 2013)

I think the PM has outsmarted everyone yet again. He has gauged the situation nd allowed the protesters and Cheif Spence to beclown themselves enough to neutralize anyone who wants to play the "race" card before moving in to undercut INM and strengthen the native reformers. He and the GG have set up a meeting in such a style that everyone (who counts) will get something (Edward has the entire scenario laid out upthread) and go home with a much better position to work from.

Oddly, Thomas Mulcair has also shown some good political instincts. Being perceptive enough to recognize Chief Spense and the INM for what they are, he has allowed some members of his caucus to weigh in, but has been relatively mute himself, staying well clear of the splatter and so will not have spent political capital on a worthless cause. The Liberals have shown no such restraint, including both Mr Dithers and the Young Dauphin in a parade of useful idiots. More fun filled sound bites ready and waiting for the CPC attack machine....


----------



## Pandora114 (11 Jan 2013)

:violin: For Spency Boo Boo.  

the First Nations attack the economy?  With what?    "We won't let you buy our tobacco or our gas and alcohol anymore eh, oh and no casino's either"

They've already been "attacking" our economy for a very long time with the extortion.  They're like leeches, or ticks.  Thing is once a leech or a tick get full they drop off and go on their merry way.    

In a way I hope the Harper government tells them "No more money to the reservations,  Get out, you're Canadian like everyone else.  Assimilate into society like every other Canadian, immigrant or born here" and that's that.  They want "Equality" they need to give up their little pie in the sky view on things and the reservations.  

I really hope this wakes the general Canadian public up.  The Natives want to be the Pigs in the barnyard.  I don't think that is able to happen.


----------



## Remius (11 Jan 2013)

Pandora, I get the jist of what you are saying.  But...

Assimilate is really the wrong word to use.  I assume you meant integrate.  

Not trying to patronise you or anything.


----------



## Pandora114 (11 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Pandora, I get the jist of what you are saying.  But...
> 
> Assimilate is really the wrong word to use.  I assume you meant integrate.
> 
> Not trying to patronise you or anything.



Yeah that.  Sorry.


----------



## Scott (11 Jan 2013)

Chief Thud and company are seeing more and more bad press. Just today the CP did a story about the boyfriend's financial woes and the fact that he has zero education to back up his claims of being a financial manager mangler. 

Speaking of Ford, was it not one solitary complaint that got the wheels rolling to unass him from office? Then why in the fuck won't legions of complaints about Thud get something done? Perhaps those wheels are turning already. They should be.


----------



## Pandora114 (11 Jan 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/03/14/ns-shubenacadie-first-nation-election-report-108.html

It took that story for

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/161812-ex-council-member-elected-as-shubenacadie-band-chief  This to happen.

It can be done...this bad press is exactly what they need.


----------



## Scott (11 Jan 2013)

Funny, I went to high school with Tommy. He's a good guy and is really concerned for his band members. I also know a few of the others named in the stories and there are one or two who I wouldn't piss on were they on fire.


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## Strike (11 Jan 2013)

The banner image for today's issue of the Kingston Whig Standard was an INM protest. Then, above the fold, is a photo of a new A/SLt and one of the first to participate in the ALOY program at RMC with an article.  Thankfully the Whig did not sully this woman's accomplishments by throwing in comparisons or comments on the current political unrest.

Supposedly there were 8 grads in this first group by the way.


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## PMedMoe (11 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Just today the CP did a story about the boyfriend's financial woes and the fact that he has zero education to back up his claims of being a financial manager mangler.



Check the article I posted (reply #550).  Not quite zero education, but not quite up to snuff, either...


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## Rifleman62 (11 Jan 2013)

Part 1

_*From Dec 2011.*_

Interesting to say the least. I have previously read several reports of contracts between De Beers and the community. Contrarily, reports speak of unemployment, no opportunities/businesses (although Global News got kicked out of the "Hotel"). 

So what are these contracts for, who's businesses are these, how many are employed? Where is the money? Who got it? Tax free I am presuming. 

The guy who wrote this is currently listed in the Toronto office of De Beers.

http://www.netnewsledger.com/2011/12/01/attawapiskat-what-is-de-beers-doing-to-help/
*
Attawapiskat – What is De Beers doing to help?*

in Aboriginal News / by James Murray / on December 1, 2011 

ATTAWAPISKAT – Many have questioned what De Beers, who are operating the Victor Diamond Mine near Attawapiskat are doing in the community to help out during the crisis. A NetNewsledger.com reader has shared an email received from the company.

Here is the contents of that message:

Like you – we have concerns about the housing situation in Attawapiskat First Nation, as the largest portion of our workforce comes from the community, which is a fly-in/fly-out community located 90 kilometres from the mine. Our company maintains a presence in the community with a two-person office (where I’m currently working from) and a training facility where we fly our training team in to conduct regular training programs with community members.

To help with some background on our activities in the community, the Victor Mine was originally discovered in 1987. Since then, we have been working with the community through the various stages of exploration, advanced exploration, the feasibility study, the environmental assessment, construction starting in 2006 then operations starting in July 2008. At each stage of that development, a variety of agreements were put in place with the community to ensure their participation and local benefits.

In November 2005 after three years of negotiation, a comprehensive Impact Benefit Agreement (IBA) was reached between De Beers Canada and Attawapiskat First Nation. That agreement includes specific compensation and protocols to ensure Attawapiskat First Nation is the primary beneficiary of benefits available during the construction, operation and closure of the Victor Mine. Compensation includes items such as training, employment, business opportunities and direct financial compensation.

The agreement also outlines our requirements and commitments in non-financial areas such as the environment and local cultural activities and practices. This agreement was voted on and ratified by the community in November 2005 before we began the construction of the Victor Mine.

Under the IBA, a series of joint management committees were established to oversee the execution of the agreement.

In 2009, a sewage backup in Attawapiskat displaced nearly 100 people. Although we had only been in operation for one year, we flew crews and project managers into the community at our expense to reconfigure previously donated multi-unit trailers into emergency housing for those displaced by the situation. These trailers are the same type still being used today by a number of our own employees at our mine, which is also fly-in/fly-out.

Working with the community over a period of a couple of weeks, we were able to complete that project just before the first snow. The value of the trailers combined with the costs to deliver them to the community, redesign and install them totaled more than $3 million – a cost covered by De Beers Canada.In 2009/2010, De Beers Canada funded consultant work on behalf of Attawapiskat First Nation so the community could undertake a comprehensive study into their housing situation.

This work included identifying the housing needs and deficiencies as well as the development of a plan for the community to address its housing shortage.

Our understanding is that this was later submitted by Attawapiskat First Nation to the federal government.These two major activities were over and above the formal commitments we have in our IBA.

De Beers Canada is continuing to work with the community through the IBA to ensure we maximize benefits to the community.

*Since the start of construction, over $325 million in contracts have been awarded to solely owned or joint venture companies run by the community.*

*Just this year alone, contracts awarded to the community total $51 million. Earlier in this note I referred to the training facility we are operating in the community.
*
In fact, this was the second training facility that we constructed and donated to the community at a combined cost of almost $2 million. The community runs the other facility.* Every year for more than five years, we have been purchasing and delivering new books to every child in the community from kindergarten to Grade 12 as part of a program to grow literacy and education levels in the community.
*
We also have in place a scholarship program. In support of the efforts for a new school, we donated project trailers, helped the community review a design proposal and offered our project management expertise.

These efforts can help reduce some of the key start-up costs in the construction of a new school. Although the Victor Mine is a small mine by both physical size and production (in fact it is the smallest diamond mine in Canada with the shortest life-of-mine of the four existing diamond mines in Canada), we are proud of the commitment of our team to all of our community partners – including Attawapiskat First Nation – in just three years of operation.

I hope this information is helpful to you and provides you some assurance that De Beers Canada is committed to maximizing the benefits for our community partners in Attawapiskat First Nation and across the country in our other areas of operation.

Since the earliest stages of our relationship, the community has made it quite clear to us that our role is not to become involved in matters that are under the jurisdiction of the community and other levels of government. When community issues arise outside the IBA or our direct responsibility such as housing, we will continue to work with our partners to play whatever support role our resources and expertise allow.

Tom Ormsby
Director, External & Corporate Affairs
De Beers Canada


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## Rifleman62 (11 Jan 2013)

Part 2

_*From Dec 2011*_

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/in-attawapiskat-deep-rooted-problems-wont-disappear-in-an-instant/article4201581/?page=all

Exerts from the above article:


> Band co-manager Clayton Kennedy managed Attawapiskat's finances from 2001 through 2004, and was rehired in July, 2010.
> 
> In the five years he was not with the band, he said, things became “a financial nightmare.” He believes the first nation was in over its head.
> 
> ...





> Ms. Tomagatik struggled with English, continually breaking into Cree then catching herself and searching for words. She said De Beers officials met with her family three times, long before the company cut a deal with Attawapiskat. She claimed that the company offered her and her four siblings $10,000 a year while the mine was in operation and that she has the paperwork to prove it. For the first few years, the money materialized. Ms. Tomagatik used it to support her daughter, living down south in Timmins. But several years ago, the payments stopped.
> 
> Tom Ormsby, the company's director of corporate affairs, explained that the rules changed when De Beers signed a deal with Attawapiskat to develop the land. Instead of making payments to individual band members, the money goes to chief and council.
> 
> “We don't compensate individuals,” said Mr. Ormsby, who began working for De Beers after the meetings with the Tomagatiks took place. “We have no way of knowing people's traditional hunting grounds and things like that. And we don't designate what the money's for, whether it's for the Tomagatiks or anybody. That's for the chief and council to decide.”


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## Edward Campbell (11 Jan 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> The banner image for today's issue of the Kingston Whig Standard was an INM protest. Then, above the fold, is a photo of a new A/SLt and one of the first to participate in the ALOY program at RMC with an article.  Thankfully the Whig did not sully this woman's accomplishments by throwing in comparisons or comments on the current political unrest.
> 
> Supposedly there were 8 grads in this first group by the way.




That's a great story, Strike; thanks for sharing it. She is, certainly, a good example of what young aboriginals can accomplish with only a wee bit of help from the _system_.

It's also the first I've heard of ALOY.

Good catch on both counts.


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## Strike (11 Jan 2013)

Was able to find an online version.

http://www.thewhig.com/2013/01/10/new-officer-a-first-for-canadian-forces

And then something to temper the good news in town.  :

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/01/20130111-091643.html


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## GAP (11 Jan 2013)

Former AFN chief Mercredi on last-ditch effort to broaden First Nations meeting
By: Mike Blanchfield, The Canadian Press 
Article Link

 4:39 PM

OTTAWA - A serene hope enveloped Ovide Mercredi as he led two fellow aboriginal chiefs to the office of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's right-hand man on Wednesday night.

Less than 48 hours later, however, Mercredi would be filled with bitter disappointment at a government that he says was lacking the simple common sense to avoid embittering aboriginal people from coast to coast.

Mercredi, the former national chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Metis activist Perry Bellegarde and British Columbia Regional Chief Jody Wilson-Raybould met for more than an hour with Harper's chief of staff Nigel Wright in an effort to open the meeting up.

They were unsuccessful.

Mercredi offered details Friday of the behind-the-scenes wrangling that led to the meeting between Harper and a much smaller than envisioned group of native leaders, behind the closed doors of his Langevin Block office.

Mercredi said Friday's demonstrations and the outrage that underlies them all could have been avoided had Harper simply agreed to a modest proposal to open the meeting, and allow Gov.-Gen. David Johnston to attend at least part of it.

"If they cannot make a compromise on the logistics of a meeting, what faith do we have in them responding to the issues facing aboriginal people in Canada?" he told The Canadian Press.

"It's a reflection of what we can expect from this government."

Shortly after their arrival Monday in Ottawa, the three chiefs were tasked by AFN leadership with approaching the Prime Minister's Office and getting a workable agenda for the meeting.

They were mindful of the demands of Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence, but as Mercredi recalled it, the three chiefs were intent on finding common ground with Harper's PMO and arranging a meeting that their membership could live with.

"There was a lot of opposition to attending a meeting where not all the chiefs would be included, also where the agenda was predetermined," he said.

"So we had a big discussion about crafting our agenda, together with the government and getting a process that would be inclusive, but also the governor general would be present."

At 9 p.m. on Wednesday night, the three chiefs started their meeting in Wright's office with that hope still burning.

The government side did make some concessions, said Grand Chief Doug Kelly of the First Nations Summit in British Columbia. They agreed to open up the agenda beyond treaty negotiations and economic development, as originally proposed, and entertain discussion about housing, murdered and missing women and the impact on the environment of Harper's budget bills.

But the PMO wouldn't budge on the structure of the meeting — a crucial point for many of the bands from central Ontario and Manitoba whose treaties were signed by a representative of the Queen.

"We were trying to impress upon the government to include the Governor General in the meeting. And also to make it more open by having it televised. And but also we expressed for it to be inclusive," Mercredi recalled.

Wright listened attentively in what was a cordial, respectful discussion that wrapped at 10:15 p.m.

"We were told this would be taken to the prime minister and we would know the results the next day," Mercredi said.

But when Thursday came, the full contingent of AFN chiefs was stunned. A separate meeting with the Governor General — at his residence and in the evening after the meeting with Harper — was not what they had in mind.

"So, I was given a mandate to go back and try to secure a meeting with Nigel and a few other people."

At 2 p.m. Thursday, Mercredi picked up the phone.

"I placed a call to Nigel. He didn't take it. I left a message with his secretary to call me. He didn't call me back."

They waited two hours, and Mercredi called back.

This time, Wright came on the line.

"I had a discussion with him about how it is important for them to open up the meeting. And if they didn't, it would not be very positive. Likely many people wouldn't attend. It would create a real bad feeling across the country," said Mercredi.

"He said, 'No, the government has agreed to this and we're going to proceed as planned. We agreed to have the Governor General meet separately. And the other meeting will stay as it is.'"

A few hours later, early Thursday evening, Mercredi took the podium for 10 minutes at the AFN's hotel in downtown Ottawa. He broke the news to the chiefs behind closed doors.

The room erupted in outrage.

"They weren't mad at me. They tried to send me to get a better meeting. They were mad at the government (for) not listening," said Mercredi.

"That's the reason why people are out there protesting, because the government is not listening."
More on link


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## Rifleman62 (12 Jan 2013)

Explaining the mess:  http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/2088643359001

Six minutes warning of the trouble ahead with the full support of the media party.

And a couple more from Ezra Levant:   http://jr2020.blogspot.com/search/label/Ezra%20Levant

Including some of the audit details.


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## brihard (12 Jan 2013)

Too many chiefs, not enough indians?


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## The_Falcon (12 Jan 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Too many chiefs, not enough indians?



Well played, well played.


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## GAP (12 Jan 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Too many chiefs, not enough indians?



I would think most indians on and off reserves just want to get on with their lives without being ripped by these so called "Leaders" either intellectually nor financially....


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## Journeyman (12 Jan 2013)

Well, now that Chief Spence has declared her intention to go on with her government-funded, hotel-living cleansing diet, I offer up a rounding cheer of  "who f*cking cares."

    :boring:


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2013)

Does each reserve (say of 1000 +/- people) consider themselves a Nation? So in essence there are 600 or so separate nations in Canada and they each want to be treated separately?


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## Old Sweat (12 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Does each reserve (say of 1000 +/- people) consider themselves a Nation? So in essence there are 600 or so separate nations in Canada and they each want to be treated separately?



From what I have read, a large number encouraged by some left wing academics and activitists certainly do. They don't let petty details like the constitution and reality get in the way. That that approach is certainly close to apartheid also really is just of no importance.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Explaining the mess:  http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/2088643359001
> 
> Six minutes warning of the trouble ahead with the full support of the media party.
> 
> ...



I just watched these and found them very interesting thanks for posting it.

I can't believe Derek Nepinak is talking about bloodshed like he is.


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## Jed (12 Jan 2013)

It appears that some battles seem to get fought over and over again. If these buttons keep getting pushed by FN Chiefs it will just take down the whole country.

I don't think it will end similar to the Oka crisis.

The issues are too wide spread and the focus is too misdirected to be met by anything but resistance by the average Canadian who is represented by the average politician.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Jan 2013)

I wonder how fast anyone else would get hammered by the authorities if they started claiming there's going to be bloodshed if something doesn't happen..


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## Container (12 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I wonder how fast anyone else would get hammered by the authorities if they started claiming there's going to be bloodshed if something doesn't happen..




Yup. Its very tiring.

I used to police on a reserve that had a large "sovereign" Indian movement. Watching the wishy washy noncommital when coming to deal with them was amazing.

It actually, in my opinion, made things worse- when I finally stepped in on the routine things that we were being excused to avoid the hassle it became a significant series of struggles. Time and their believing their  own hype had made monsters. But hey- im no learned politician.


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## Jed (12 Jan 2013)

I have a minor revelation to make: I have some FN heritage in my background, I also some Quebecois in the mix too, but that is a different subject.

In my great grandparents' day it was not on to claim your native heritage: they became 'Apples' (Red on the outside and white on the inside) For successive generations the family clan embraced the WASP side of the family genealogy. Easy to do when you have blue eyes and relatively white skin.

Now we have this latest lawful ruling that Metis are considered FN. Can't you just predict the flood of folks such as myself taking out applications to put themselves on the latest  government gravy train to accept the government dole?


There is only one true solution to this issue and that is the integration of the FN communities into the larger Canadian community.  For true justice all Canadians must be treated with equality. Will it be painful and disruptive?  You bet.


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## Rifleman62 (12 Jan 2013)

In light of the last few posts, you may be interested in Christie's take:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/11/christie-blatchford-government-has-allowed-police-to-operate-in-vacuum-of-accountability-with-aboriginals/

*Christie Blatchford: Government has allowed police to operate in vacuum of accountability with aboriginal protesters*

National Post - Jan 11, 2013 

    “The lack of accountability for the overall policy of the OPP with respect to Caledonia is inexcusable in a country and province that is simultaneously committed both to enforcing the rule of law and to reaching just land settlements with Indigenous people.”
    — University of Western Ontario political science professor Andrew Sancton

In the news business, you often feel thick as a plank, or at least I do.

But I wrote an entire book about the breakdown of law-and-order in Caledonia, Ont., and yet, until Andrew Sancton’s note of this week, I’d managed to miss perhaps the most important lesson that Sidney Linden, the judge who headed the lengthy inquiry into the police-aboriginal standoff at Ipperwash in 1995, had to teach.

It appears my thickness is of particular density.

The quote above is from a piece Professor Sancton wrote and was published last year in the journal Canadian Public Administration.

The piece is called “Democratic policing”: Lessons from Ipperwash and Caledonia, and the quotes are around the first two words because it was Justice Linden who to virtually no public attention and sadly to little effect in government, recommended this model of policing.

Justice Linden, of course, was concerned with the events at Ipperwash Provincial Park in 1995, where a native protester named Dudley George was fatally shot when the Ontario Provincial Police moved in, and in general with issues of how police in Ontario handle aboriginal blockades.

A more intelligent and sympathetic view of aboriginal and Canadian history would be hard to find.

And the Linden report, and the hearings which led to it and which were still going on when protesters from Six Nations first moved onto a development site called Douglas Creek Estates in 2006, got scads of media attention.

But in the black-and-white way that comes naturally to the news business, the Ipperwash dispute was reduced to this: The Mike Harris Conservative government, impatient for action, had inappropriately influenced the OPP, with tragedy the result; Ontario must be vigilant to see that such a thing never happened again; thus police “independence” must be ferociously guarded.

Yet Justice Linden specifically found that though certainly mistakes had been made at Ipperwash, the Harris government had not unduly influenced the OPP, or, as Professor Sancton put it, “the government was perfectly entitled to do so as long as it followed procedures that were clear, transparent and respected established lines of authority.”

That’s because there’s a proper place for government to set policies for the police, just as it does in other spheres, and that includes decisions, as the professor wrote, on “how the police are to respond to specific challenges in the real world, such as protests and occupations.”

As Mr. Sancton pointed out, while Justice Linden agrees that in “the core area of law enforcement (who should be investigated, arrested and/or charged)” police need to be independent of government direction, that doesn’t mean the minister responsible for policing should adopt a “hands off” posture.

In fact, as Mr. Sancton noted – and he’s the first person I’ve read to say it – Justice Linden did not recommend the “police independence” model, but rather the “democratic policing” one. The judge’s analysis, Mr. Sancton said, “effectively repudiates the hands-off position taken by the [Dalton] McGuinty government concerning Caledonia.”

While most of the witnesses who either appeared before the judge or have spoken publicly — including the premier, various government ministers and senior OPP leaders — duly parroted “the nostrum that government ministers have no right to interfere in police ‘operational’ decisions,” Justice Linden didn’t accept this view of police independence.

The difficulty, Mr. Sancton concluded, is that this model doesn’t give sufficient authority to the responsible minister — or accountability.

That was Justice Linden’s end game — not that government policy shouldn’t inform the police, but rather that the government be transparent about the policy and answerable to Ontarians for it, and for any consequences.

As Mr. Sancton wrote, the judge’s real concern was not to insulate the police from government control but to protect them from “informal influence by an unspecified array of governmental operatives” ranging from the premier on down — the very thing that happened at Ipperwash.

What Justice Linden’s recommendations in this regard emphasize are focusing “responsibility for the OPP on a single minister,” making him or her answerable for policing policy, and seeing that the minister’s directives are fully public.

As Professor Sancton said, had the Linden scheme been in place when the Caledonia occupation began, “the minister responsible for the OPP would have had a decision to make: does he issue a policy directive to the OPP or not?” If the answer was yes, he would have had to make the directive public; if the answer was no, “the minister would have had to have been publicly responsible for not having issued a policy.”

(I emphasize here that none of us — the judge, the professor or me the plank — is talking about the government telling the police whom to arrest.)

In the end, nothing has changed, despite the Linden report. Mr. Sancton said that undoubtedly, such a vacuum of accountability suits some. They might prefer the OPP commissioners be left to do whatever they wish, as indeed has happened, with OPP boss Chris Lewis recently deciding that during an Idle No More rail blockade last weekend, his officers would not assist the local sheriff in enforcing a court injunction, and being unrepentant when criticized by the judge for the force’s “passivity.”

At the very minimum, Mr. Sancton said, commissioners should be “required to defend their own policy decisions publicly.”

Finally, the professor concluded in his article, “Commanders in the Canadian Armed Forces are given considerable leeway by their political masters in determining how personnel are trained and deployed, especially when they are actually in a field of conflict.

”But no one suggests that they should be given a general mandate to ‘keep Canada secure’ and then be left alone to decide what to do.”

That’s precisely the situation in Ontario – where native chiefs are threatening more rail and road blockades next week – right now: The government mantra is hands off the police, the police are accountable to no one, including the courts, and no one is answerable to the people.

National Post
cblatchford@postmedia.com


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## Brad Sallows (12 Jan 2013)

>So in essence there are 600 or so separate nations in Canada and they each want to be treated separately?

There are 600 or so separate communities (some are really districts of communities, but nevertheless not heavily populated) who want to be exempt from the jurisdiction of provinces and other districts/municipalities, and much of federal jurisdiction.  In exchange for allowing the government of Canada to grant them these extraordinary freedoms and to be the scapegoat whenever the exercise of freedom results in suboptimal outcomes, they are willing to accept financial tribute and cultural boot-licking (eg. "First Nations").


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## Old Sweat (12 Jan 2013)

This article in the National Post which is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act discusses the indigenism theory, which in my opinion is based on wishful thinking and activism.

Separate and equal nations: The academic theory behind Idle No More

Joseph Brean | Jan 12, 2013 12:18 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 12, 2013 12:58 PM ET


For all the noise about hunger strikes, boycott threats, railway disruptions and an audit leak, Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s historic meeting with Indian chiefs was nearly derailed by a quirk of constitutional theory — the notion that Canada and its aboriginal groups are separate and equal nations.

Controversial but commonly held, this idea seemed to require the presence of the Queen, Canada’s head of state, or at least her representative Governor-General David Johnston, who refused because it was a working policy summit.

A dinner with Mr. Johnston at Rideau Hall made for a compromise, but the knife-edged climax to Idle No More — at which Mr. Harper agreed to the need for greater oversight and to future high-level meetings, but which was still boycotted by several chiefs who threatened economic disruption until Ottawa agreed to meet on their terms, nation to nation — revealed the prominence of a theory known as indigenism, according to which the land of Canada was stolen from self-governing peoples first by France, then by England, and lastly by the millions of immigrant “settlers” who have arrived since.

Though sparked by the housing crisis in Attawapiskat, Ont., and some controversial legislation, the Idle No More movement has drawn upon the rich vein of this theory that runs through academia in Canada, from social theorists to geographers.

It is a realm in which it is uncontroversial to call Canada an illegitimate, racist, colonial power, or to claim its government is now engaged in the genocide of its native peoples, or that non-native Canadians, especially those of European descent, are “colonizers,” at best blind to their own bigotry and privilege.

In describing goals of Idle No More, Assembly of First Nations Chief Shawn Atleo vowed to “drive the final stake in the heart of colonialism,” and Manitoba Chief Derek Nepinak denounced “140 years of colonial rule in our territory.” Likewise, on Friday in Kingston, Ont., a statue of its most famous son and Canada’s first prime minister, Sir John A. Macdonald was defaced with red paint and graffiti reading “colonizer,” “murderer,” and “this is stolen land.”

Even such major cities as Toronto and Vancouver are said to have been wrongly imposed on unceded land, just as European colonizers imposed themselves on “Turtle Island,” or North America.


A key voice in this academic field is Pamela Palmater, an Idle No More spokeswoman and chair of the centre for indigenous governance at Ryerson University in Toronto. As a Mi’kmaq from New Brunswick who was once denied Indian status based on the impurity of her bloodline, Prof. Palmater compares herself to a survivor of residential schools, and claims Indians are in a race against “legislative extinction” imposed by the majority of Canadians.

“If we do not act now, there will be no status Indians left to maintain our communities and culture into the future,” writes Prof. Palmater in Beyond Blood, her PhD thesis that is now used in university aboriginal studies courses.

“It’s supposed to be nation to nation,” she told reporters in advance of the meeting, saying Canada no longer gets to dictate the terms of its relationship with its indigenous people. “What we’re going to do is show you how to be a respectful partner… If they refuse, that’s their choice, but there will be consequences.”

“The word ‘nation’ gets played with in the same way the word ‘genocide’ does,” said John Borrows, chair of law, public policy and society at the University of Minnesota and an expert on Canadian indigenous governance.

Taiaiake Alfred, a professor of indigenous governance at the University of Victoria, said the word genocide is a “powerful emotional trigger,” but that it nevertheless applies to Canadian Indians, now and in the past. He cited United Nations criteria for the crime, which include committing any of the following with intent to destroy a group, in whole or in part: killing their members, causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s physical destruction, imposing measures intended to prevent births, or forcibly transferring children to another group.”

“Our genocide, even if we accept that it’s historical and ended technically with the residential schools, there’s been no adequate reparations. There’s been no reparations at all, really. The individuals themselves have been compensated to some degree, but when it comes down to it, the collectivities, the communities that were affected in terms of their ability to sustain themselves into the future, are not being provided with any kind of adequate redress,” Prof. Taiaiake said.

‘What we’re going to do is show you how to be a respectful partner… If they refuse, that’s their choice, but there will be consequences’
Among activists, such as the Occupy protesters, this theory of indigenism has also provided a basis for alliances between indigenous groups and anarchist or environmental groups, all of which tend to view the Canadian government as malicious and illegitimate. At the extremes, it has even seen First Nations chiefs welcomed by Iran’s dictatorship as representative victims of Canadian genocide.

Tom Flanagan, a professor of political science at the University of Calgary and former advisor to Mr. Harper, said the theory that Canada was stolen from pre-existing nations is “standard fare among the academic left.” He has seen it bubble up from law schools, where professors like Prof. Palmater have constructed elaborate arguments to validate the view that Indians were never conquered, and “paid in advance” by agreeing to share the land.

“The ideas are influential,” he said, even though some of it might be “trash talk for the cameras.”

“That’s what’s driving Idle No More. It’s not new. This whole vision was widely articulated during the hearings on the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples,” Mr. Flanagan said.


If First Nations were truly nations, he said, then Mr. Harper’s behaviour would be fairly called heavy-handed, for example making changes to the Indian Act without their consent. But on this analysis, the same would be true of amending the criminal code, which also applies to Indians, or any other similar legislation.

“Personally, I think this is utterly impossible to implement. There wouldn’t be any resource revenues if you implemented this political vision because nothing would ever get done. How would stuff get approved? How would pipelines get approved? How would railways function, crossing all these sovereign territories, having to get approval from 600 sovereign nations?”

Just as exposing white privilege is a key strategy of anti-racist campaigners, so is exposing settler guilt a key strategy of decolonization theory.

But whereas “white guilt” leads to moral paralysis, and is no help to anyone, Prof. Alfred said the concept of “settler guilt” contains an implicit recognition of inherited privilege, which implies a responsibility to address it and make amends.

“It’s the opposite of guilt, which paralyzes. This is the creation of a sense of responsibility for action,” he said.

He said many Indians identify as Canadians, though not to the degree that American Indians identify as Americans, which he sees as a regrettable, cautionary tale. He said that whether an Indian identifies as Canadian is largely determined by whether his nation is satisfied with its treaty, and that the idea of Canada as a “colonial” power stems from a recognition that the historical autonomy of Indians has been undervalued.

“From that perspective, you have an injustice that occurs when our existence as autonomous people … is disrespected,” Prof. Alfred said. “That’s where the colonialism comes in, when our resources are used against our ownership, when our rights are ignored, when our ability to make laws and to run our affairs in the way that we always have been running them, on our own authority, when that’s all disrespected in favour of an idea that we are under the authority of a people who came here after us, to which we never agreed.”

Prof. Borrows compared the rancorous situation in Canada to the U.S. debate between constitutional originalism, which seeks answers only in the foundational documents, and so-called living constitutionalism, which takes into account the subsequent amendments, history and current context.

“We have two guilty parties on that [originalism] front in Canada,” he said. “We have the Supreme Court of Canada, which says that aboriginal rights are only those things which were integral to the distinctive culture of aboriginal peoples prior to the arrival of Europeans… And then we also have some indigenous people who will make a similar kind of originalist claim, that we were here before others came, we had this governance and resources, and we have to return to that moment.”

“Politics is never final,” he added.


----------



## Container (12 Jan 2013)

Generally speaking- OPP officers, that I speak to, will always bring up the fact that when they did use force and it escalated to gun fire- during the resulting fight Sgt. Ken 'Tex' Deane was "hung out to dry" for an operational mistake during a tense and active fight where he mistook a dark stick as a firearm.

The courts called him a liar and sentenced him for criminal neg causing death. Because the courts say one thing, like they have again, and then condemn the police actions it is not in their interest to be another political scapegoat.

I would suggest that where there is an injunction and the judge has ordered it dismantled it isnt really discretionary. The method might be but the rule of law needs to be followed- especially by the police


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## Kat Stevens (12 Jan 2013)

The whole "stolen land" thing has had me thinking, and I really hate doing that,  so I'm a little cranky.  Are we to believe that before the white devils arrived, all indigenous persons in North America lived in peace and harmony with each other?  There were no tribal migrations and conquests?  There was no tribal genocide in a very real sense, not just a melodramatic headline grabbing way?  Nobody took his neighbours lands and took them into very real slavery?  Every culture has stolen land from, or lost land to, it's neighbours.  It sucks to be the losing party in those exchanges, of that there is no doubt, and mistakes have been made in dealing with aboriginal issues, but to accuse Canada of genocide is way offside, at least in my limited understanding of the word.


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## Infanteer (12 Jan 2013)

From what I understand, archeological evidence suggests three waves of migration across the Bearing Straight, and each successive wave brought societies into contact with each other.  Some cultures were wiped right off the map.  The history of the Americas prior to the arrival of the Europeans was no different than any other area of the globe - people traded, moved, fought and displaced eachother.  To suggest that we could somehow put the genie of 1492 back into bottle is pure silliness.


----------



## armyvern (12 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> ...
> Now we have this latest lawful ruling that Metis are considered FN. Can't you just predict the flood of folks such as myself taking out applications to put themselves on the latest  government gravy train to accept the government dole?
> ...



When on my Christmas block leave, I went home and was buying some new jeans for my 9er Domestic (old man / fiance / whatever is the term du jour these days), who is Metis, and had to upsize on the waist-size by an inch from his normal size.  I advised him when he opened them Christmas morning that he too had to become "idle no more."  He called me a bitch.

Last night when he arrived at my apartment for the weekend, his first words upon entering through the door were, "now that the court ruling is out, do not expect me to be accompanying you while shopping so that I can toss any tax-exempt status onto the register for you and essentially upsize your shopping budget."

What an asshole.   

I'd like to think that this is the common attitude amongst all Canadians.  I really am hopeful that most Canadians, including all of our aboriginal peoples, want only to have dignity, respect and contribute to an equal and just society for us all.


----------



## Container (12 Jan 2013)

Sorry Vern- I dont share your optimism. Not unusual though- scowley is my default setting:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2013/01/09/f-metis-non-status-decision-costs.html

Im not sure how to quote- but its from the article:



			
				Container said:
			
		

> The decision could also prompt a spike in Métis membership applications. Randy Ranville, a genealogist with the Métis Culture and Heritage Resource Centre in Winnipeg, told The Canadian Press the centre will likely be swamped following the court decision.
> 
> According to the 2006 census, nearly 400,000 Canadians self-identified as Métis, although only about half are officially recognized. Each province has a Métis organization which registers members and outlines its own requirements for status.
> 
> Typically, proof lies in an official family tree, accompanied by birth certificates and other documentation with ties to the historic Métis homeland."



Im inclined to suspect the same.


----------



## armyvern (12 Jan 2013)

Container said:
			
		

> Sorry Vern- I dont share your optimism. Not unusual though- scowley is my default setting:
> ...



Oh I am positive there will be a spike.  I'd never bet against that!

I am more positive though that the ruling regarding "off-reserve" will see an exodus of aboriginal Canadians from those isolated communities, such as Attawapiskat, where they are held hostage to the likes of Ms. Spence who *is* literally the hand that feeds and houses them.  I would dearly love to see her community uprise against her and her cronyism and demand accountability and proper management of monies that they should be benefiting from.

If they now have the _real_ ability to go elsewhere _and_ maintain their recognized status, I am hopeful that like most people, they want to work and contribute rather than solely ride upon a gravy train.  

We will always have those types in our society - life-sucking parasites who feed off of others and believe it is their right to do so indefinitely --- welfare etc.   We have nice WASPy guys and gals doing this in urban areas of Canada every single day of their lives; some of those types form a large part of the "occupy" movement (huge surprise that is!!).  They've never looked for, let alone held, a job a single day of their existence, nor do they ever intend to.  I do believe that they are a minority; vocal and right the fuck out of 'er, but a minority none the less.

I also believe that the same "minority" would hold true in our aboriginal populace.  For each who attempts to now claim status ... I'm wagering we'll see 2+ depart the Rez.  Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but one can hope.


----------



## Jed (12 Jan 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I also believe that the same "minority" would hold true in our aboriginal populace.  For each who attempts to now claim status ... I'm wagering we'll see 2+ depart the Rez.  Perhaps it is wishful thinking, but one can hope.



I hope you are right AV. I have no burning desire to fight the good fight that I think will be coming if the average Canadian and their average politicians can not shut down these anti establishment anarchistic movements.


----------



## Old Sweat (12 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> I hope you are right AV. I have no burning desire to fight the good fight that I think will be coming if the average Canadian and their average politicians can not shut down these anti establishment anarchistic movements.



That may be an unintended consequence. In the meantime I feel that this will be appealed to the Supreme Court, which will tie it up for a few years at least. In the meantime, I hope everybody steps back and takes a deep breath before doing much more than sprouting sound bites to the media. That is probably wishful thinking, because there are a number of people, not all of them aboriginal, who want to remake or even destroy what they see as an evil, capitalistic, anti-environmental, racist, colonial society.


----------



## Rifleman62 (12 Jan 2013)

Both radicals, Pamela Palmater, chair of the centre for indigenous governance at Ryerson University in Toronto and Taiaiake Alfred, a professor of indigenous governance at the University of Victoria have been/are being supported by the taxpayer.

These are their demands:

Pamela Palmater 





> “It’s supposed to be nation to nation,” she told reporters in advance of the meeting, saying Canada no longer gets to dictate the terms of its relationship with its indigenous people. “What we’re going to do is show you how to be a respectful partner… If they refuse, that’s their choice, but there will be consequences.”



Taiaiake Alfred:  





> But whereas “white guilt” leads to moral paralysis, and is no help to anyone, Prof. Alfred said the concept of “settler guilt” contains an implicit recognition of inherited privilege, which implies a responsibility to address it and make amends.
> 
> “It’s the opposite of guilt, which paralyzes. This is the creation of a sense of responsibility for action,” he said.
> 
> “From that perspective, you have an injustice that occurs when our existence as autonomous people … is disrespected,” Prof. Alfred said. “That’s where the colonialism comes in, when our resources are used against our ownership, when our rights are ignored, when our ability to make laws and to run our affairs in the way that we always have been running them, on our own authority, when that’s all disrespected in favour of an idea that we are under the authority of a people who came here after us, to which we never agreed.”



The government of Canada with the support of all parties and the taxpayers must stop this dead now. It cannot go on. Either that or the ROC assimilates and becomes the captive slaves of the Indians

I understand we who are not Indians are "Newcomers".


----------



## skyhigh10 (12 Jan 2013)

A variety of good posts written, many of which I agree with. A sensitive subject to be sure. Lots of different opinions!  From Ezra Levant stating that it's the first time he's ever seen someone gain weight during a hunger strike to Mr. Martins apologetic sermon. Quite the mess.  

Something I can't seem to understand.... why doesn't the CBC, Toronto Star and so on take a trip up to Attawapiskat and interview the community? Wouldn't it be nice to see if they support all of these claims by Ms. Spence?

Members of her own band were heckling her yesterday questioning where the money went. Her response was "consultants"! 

I don't think it's too much to ask for this investigation to continue instead of being distracted by unreasonable threats which would land most of us in a jail cell.  

Ms. Spence has failed to communicate to me how "we" inhibit first nations ability to succeed. She has failed to communicate how I am responsible for the issues plaguing aboriginal youth.  She has also failed her transparency test. 

I think the political high ground needs to be bypassed in order to put these recurring issues to rest.


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## ModlrMike (12 Jan 2013)

skyhigh10 said:
			
		

> Something I can't seem to understand.... why doesn't the CBC, Toronto Star and so on take a trip up to Attawapiskat and interview the community? Wouldn't it be nice to see if they support all of these claims by Ms. Spence?



Global News did just that... and were thrown off the reserve at the insistence of Ms Spence.


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## Rifleman62 (12 Jan 2013)

I forgot to add that since they are "sovereign nations" the Supreme Court of Canada is meaningless to them. 

Nothing will ever satisfy them. Give them every breathe of air and they will argue about that.


----------



## brihard (12 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I understand we who are not Indians are "Newcomers".



This pisses me off more than the rest. I do not use the term 'natives' to refer to aboriginals. I was born in Canada. I am as 'native' as anyone else who was.

_Aboriginal_ conveys the proper ethnic and political nuances. But I reject this notion that somehow those of us who cannot claim that ethnicity owe anything to those who can any more than we owe to all Canadians equally. I do not believe in two-tier citizenship.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Jan 2013)

Ezra Levant _tweeted_ this:

It's a Miracle?






Levant is not, I think, the originator but I cannot trace the source.


----------



## ArmyGuy99 (12 Jan 2013)

[Begin Delusion  :stars:]  What has been done has been done.  What is, is.  Wake up, smell the coffee, move on with life.  We're all Canadian end of story :cdnsalute:.  My wife is German/Canadian on both sides.  Our Children will learn about both the paternal and maternal sides.  But they will be taught that they are Canadian first, no matter what.  Let's just all agree that we live in the best country in the world, shake hands be friends and go grab a  :cheers: and some fishing poles. 
 [Delusion ends  k:]


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## Remius (12 Jan 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/01/12/pol-the-house-matthew-coon-come-calls-on-theresa-spence-to-end-hunger-strike.html

Some common sense.


----------



## Dissident (12 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Ezra Levant _tweeted_ this:
> 
> It's a Miracle?
> 
> ...



To be fair Ghandhi started out pretty thin. A month ago Chief Spence was asking for Solo and the Wookie.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Jan 2013)

If there is a flood of people trying to get on the train I know exactly where some of the money can come from to pay the ticket.


----------



## The_Falcon (13 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Ezra Levant _tweeted_ this:
> 
> It's a Miracle?
> 
> ...



I made a similar one for my FB wall.


----------



## George Wallace (13 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I forgot to add that since they are "sovereign nations" the Supreme Court of Canada is meaningless to them.




But they are not.  They gave away the "sovereign nation" status with Treaties # 5 and # 9.  If they want to conveniently forget this "sin of their forefathers" then we should not be held accountable of any of the "sins of our forefathers" (which they (all visible minorities) so often remind us of and hold us accountable for), and we are left with this:




			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Nothing will ever satisfy them. Give them every breathe of air and they will argue about that.



From Treaty No. 5, 20 September 1875: 



> The Saulteaux and Swampy Cree Tribes of Indians and all other the Indians inhabiting the district hereinafter described and defined, do hereby cede, release, surrender and yield up to the Government of the Dominion of Canada, for Her Majesty the Queen and Her successors for ever, all their rights, titles and privileges whatsoever to the lands included within the following limits, that is to say:


http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028699/1100100028700

From Treaty No 9, 18 June 1931:



> Copy of an Order In Council
> 
> 
> Copy of an Order in Council, approved by the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor, dated the 18th day of June, A. D. 1931
> ...


  http://www.aadnc-aandc.gc.ca/eng/1100100028863/1100100028864


----------



## Rifleman62 (13 Jan 2013)

Thought I read that Chief Spence signed a do not resuscitate order yesterday, but I cannot find the link today. 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Column+Idle+More+Demon+Harper+There+another+choice/7797913/story.html#ixzz2HmrIsWUU
*
 Idle No More or the Demon Harper? There’s another choice*

By Terry Glavin - Ottawa Citizen - January 10, 2013

It all sounds so wonderfully simple. On the one side, we have Canada, a genocidal, racist, colonial settler state that just wants to rape the land and poison the water. On the other, we have sacred indigenous nations that just want to protect Turtle Island and be spiritual about everything. Now, pick a side.

Thank you, Idle No More. Joining a “revolution” has never been so easy, and already, the ramparts are being breached. Prime Minister Stephen Harper hosts a delegation from the leadership of the Assembly of First Nations on Friday. It’s actually a meeting the AFN was supposed to have had with Harper some time ago, but never mind that.

Don’t spoil the excitement.

This is not to say that there’s been nothing worthwhile about the impromptu flash-mobbing and the aboriginal-themed block parties that have been breaking out randomly all over the place in recent weeks.

Nobody’s in charge. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. Wow!

What will happen next? Besides, it’s been almost wholly peaceful and lawful and fun.

But to imagine this as a progressive “movement” requires a certain suspension of disbelief. There are just too many bothersome little contradictions that have to be kept off camera or the whole thing falls apart.

Like last year’s so-called Occupy movement, Idle No More offers nothing remotely resembling any achievable and identifiable demands.

Sorry, but calling for the immediate repeal of the ruling Conservatives’ entire legislative agenda doesn’t count. And while Idle No More is supposed to be a function of social media and the emergence of new forms of “horizontal” political organization, it’s now almost entirely a function of the “old” media’s news cycles.

This has meant endless opportunities for journalists and activists who’ve never set foot inside an Indian reserve to declaim gravely and loudly in the matter of what Indians want, what Indians think and how Indians feel. So much for “awareness-raising.” And never mind that Kahnewake Mohawks have about as much in common with Kwakwaka’wakw people as with Corsicans or Marsh Arabs. The contradictions just keep piling up.

It’s true that Chief Theresa Spence’s home community of Attawapiskat was in the grips of a scandalous housing crisis last winter, and that she and NDP MP Charlie Angus deftly handled the serious journalism that Global TV and the CBC put into it all. But it’s also true that Chief Spence’s boyfriend is on the Attawapiskat payroll at $850 a day, the CBC now stands accused of collaborating with shadowy Conservative propagandists in disclosing the contents of a “leaked” financial audit and Chief Spence had a Global TV crew strong-armed out of Attawapiskat only this week.

The contradictions are plentiful and shy-making. Attawapiskat’s own investment portfolio, for instance, includes holdings in oilsands majors like the Chinese National Offshore Oil Corp., the pipeline-builder Enbridge and other such water poisoners and land rapers.

Here’s another thing you’re not supposed to know: The aging hipster activists who are providing so much of the oxygen for Idle No More are the very same “social movement” activists who actively engineered the defeat of the historic aboriginal self-government provisions of the Charlottetown accord in 1992. Hey, thanks for the help, white friends.

But these are “distractions.” There are eagle feather rituals and sacred fires to attend to. Everyone’s in buckskin and colourful headgear, and while most of this stuff is really just powwow performance art that can’t claim even the most tenuous connection to any real aboriginal traditions in Canada, journalists just love this stuff. It means you don’t actually have to do any work.

The phenomenon has reaffirmed that there is an enormous reservoir of goodwill among ordinary working Canadians, and the breathless awe with which we are all exhorted to behold the recent parades has whetted a political appetite that might be slaked only by radical change in Indian Country. This is good. But Idle No More’s wholly unaccountable non-leadership remains fixated on assertions of aboriginal hyper-authenticity and a sweetgrass-clouded rejectionism that guarantees the persistence of a bleak and grotesque status quo. Not so good.

Here’s how that works.

Rob Clarke of the Muskeg Lake Cree First Nation in Saskatchewan would very much like to get rid of the Indian Act (and so say we all). It’s a decrepit, burdensome and unutterably stupid law that is far and away the heaviest of all the statutory millstones around the necks of Canada’s aboriginal peoples. Clarke is now the popular MP for Desnethé-Missinippi-Churchill River. His riding takes in most of the land mass of Saskatchewan, and his voters are mostly Cree and Métis people.

Clarke’s private members’ bill, C-428, is a modest thing that proposes a handful of immediate amendments, one of which would lift the Byzantine rigmaroles governing the sale of potatoes cultivated on Indian reserves (yes, really). More importantly, C-428 would require the Indian Affairs minister to report regularly and meticulously on the government’s progress as the department consults and collaborates with First Nations leadership on the long-overdue repeal and replacement of the Indian Act.

For his trouble, Clarke has been blasted by the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations for failing to adequately consult with them about his proposal for consultations, and Idle No More’s founding grievance list identifies Bill C-428 as a violation of the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Idle No More’s founders have similarly traduced Innuit Senator Charlie Watt’s proposed law, in Bill S-207, which would explicitly prohibit all federal statues from abrogating or derogating from the aboriginal and treaty rights enshrined in Section 35 of the Constitution. Like that would be a bad thing.

Another thing we’re supposed to avoid mentioning is that Idle No More constitutes a failed style and a hackneyed polemics that has been percolating mainly at the margins since the 1970s, and it’s precisely the thing the Assembly of First Nations itself resoundingly rejected last summer in its landslide re-election of the eminently competent and dynamic national chief Shawn Atleo.

There had been remarkable progress underway under Atleo’s leadership, on a variety of fronts, until only a few months ago.

The only serious question about Idle No More now is whether it will mobilize public support for the AFN agenda under its brand or undermine Shawn Atleo’s leadership altogether. Sorry, but the choice isn’t between the Folk Devil Stephen Harper and those graceful blue creatures from Avatar. It’s between play-acting in period costume and actual and real political engagement. Unless it’s the latter, Idle No More will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.

We’ll see.

Terry Glavin is an author and journalist  (+ blogger) whose most recent book is Come From the Shadows.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


----------



## 57Chevy (13 Jan 2013)

Quebec Grand Chief calls on Spence to end hunger strike
 From CBC NEWS.ca (link) 

A top aboriginal chief, Matthew Coon Come, who was among a delegation of chiefs that met with Prime Minister Stephen Harper in Ottawa on Friday, says it's time for Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence to save face and end her hunger strike — now on its 33rd day.

Spence, who attended a ceremonial event with the Governor General at Rideau Hall in Ottawa on Friday evening, along with about 100 other chiefs, has since vowed to continue her hunger strike until the prime minister and Governor General meet with First Nations together, in the same room.

In an interview airing Saturday on CBC Radio's The House, Coon Come, Grand Chief of the Grand Council of the Crees, acknowledged that Spence's efforts had "an influence" on the resulting meetings but also questioned the wisdom of her decision to continue her diet of fish broth and medicinal tea beyond four weeks.

"I'm not sure who is advising her," Coon Come told host Evan Solomon.

Coon Come, who also served as former National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations (AFN) from 2000 to 2003, went on to question Spence's rationale for wanting the prime minister and the Governor General to meet with First Nations in the same room.

He explained that while the Canadian Constitution Act places executive powers in the Queen, in practice this power is exercised by the prime minister.

"The prime minister is not going to relinquish his executive powers to the Governor General. That's the reality," said Coon Come.

"I don't know who is advising her. I don't know who she has surrounded herself with," said Coon Come adding "but I think if one is to make statements, they have to be credible based on at least some facts, on some knowledge, and hopefully be able to compromise."

Speaking from his own experience, Coon Come said "when you ask for something in this country, in my experience in negotiations, it's a give and take. There has to be a save-face, for both sides."

Coon Come, a long-time advocate for the rights of indigenous peoples in Canada, is also best known for his fight against the Quebec government's James Bay hydroelectric project.

"I chose to be part of the process, and I think I've done something for my nation that others only dream of," he said.

Coon Come told Solomon he thinks Spence has been successful in her demands, and that it's time to put her health first.

"I would hope that she would [end her hunger strike], for her health. I think she has succeeded. The Governor General responded by saying I will meet. Maybe not the way she wanted it. The prime minister said he was going to meet with First Nations. I think both have been done."

Shared article with provisions of The Copyright Act continues at link above.


----------



## Rifleman62 (15 Jan 2013)

http://www.globalnews.ca/spence+lacks+support+of+most+canadians+poll/6442789231/story.html
*
Spence lacks support of most Canadians: poll*
Most Canadians believe First Nations receive too much federal funding, and Aboriginals' problems are 'brought on by themselves'

More than a month into her much-publicized protest, Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence is not garnering much support from Canadians, according to a new survey.

The chief received an approval rating of 29 per cent in a new Ipsos Reid poll conducted exclusively for Global News and Postmedia News.

The survey suggests the Idle No More movement hasn't garnered much sympathy for Canada's First Nations, but rather, raised awareness about financial accountability on the reserves.

Nearly two-thirds (64 per cent) of poll respondents believe Canada's First Nations receive too much federal funding. About the same number (62 per cent) believe Ottawa treats Aboriginals well.

But Aboriginals are also creating problems for themselves, according to more than half (60 per cent) of respondents. Idle No More spokesperson Pam Palmater insists that simply isn't the case.

In an interview over the phone with Global News, she puts the blame squarely on Ottawa. "First Nations are not to blame for the situation they're in. Indian Affairs controls every single aspect of our lives."

"Our problem is we have more kids in care today because of government policies than we ever did in residential schools. So nothing's changed for us, they just use different policies to accomplish the same thing."

Until auditors are appointed to ensure financial accountability, Ottawa should not hand out additional taxpayer dollars to any reserve, according to most Canadians (81 per cent).

Twenty-seven per cent of Canadians believe much of the federal money is managed well by First Nations leaders. Out of all Canadian provinces, Quebec agreed the most with this (36 per cent), while Saskatchewan and Manitoba agreed the least (8 per cent).

The question was asked just days after an independent audit of Attawapiskat First Nation, commissioned by Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan, detailed how the band council had not properly tracked how it spent $104 million earmarked for housing, sewage, and education.

Deloitte and Touche LLP's study showed 81 per cent of the 505 financial transactions reviewed lacked proper documentation. Sixty per cent had no documentation for the reason for payment, the auditors noted.

Chief Lloyd Phillips of the Mohawk Council of Kahnawà:ke says one reserve's bad audit reflects poorly on all the reserves. "By far, 90 per cent-plus of the communities are above board in terms – they've always been accounted for. The audit reports are requirements of the federal government every year."

"The vast majority are more than adequate in what they provide. You know, it's unfortunate there are a few – and no one will deny that – that are mismanaging, but those are the ones who make the headlines."

Global National Ottawa Bureau Chief Jacques Bourbeau approached Spence on Tuesday for her reaction to the poll, but she offered no comment, deferring Bourbeau to her spokesperson, Danny Metatawabin.

Metatawabin says many Canadians just don't understand the issues facing First Nations. "We are not money-grabbers. We just get limited funding."


While Spence suffered relatively low approval ratings, First Nations national leaders scored the highest, at 51 per cent.

Harper came in second at 46 per cent. Ipsos Reid points out that when the Conservatives were elected to a majority government in 2011, the party received 40 per cent of the vote.

The Idle No More movement placed third, at 38 per cent, ahead of Spence. But only 51 per cent of Canadians say they've been paying "close attention" to details of the recent First Nations protests.

*A lack of knowledge is contributing to Aboriginals' negative reputation, according to Palmater. "These people participating in polls – for the most part – don't have that historical, legal, political, social, factual context. They're giving opinions based on what they hear in the media – and not based on fact."* (The media party, led by the CBC, was fully in support against the devil, Harper, so I don't know what she is smoking)

Phillips echoes Palmater's sentiment. "The movement certainly needs to send a much clearer message to the Canadian public through the media... (I'm) not being critical of (all) the media, but I've witnessed some media outlets who have not shown the best light on the whole issue."

To Phillips, the message is simple: First Nations want a better life in Canada. "We want to assert our jurisdictions, and have a new relationship – you know, respective of our historical relationship with Canada."

Palmater is urging Canadians to give the Idle No More movement "a chance. Ask questions. Self-educate. Start understanding what are the root causes of these problems."

In the meantime, Spence insists she will remain on a liquids-only diet until she is granted a meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Gov. Gen. David Johnston, and other First Nations leaders.


'Legitimate protest' and cooperation

The views on what constitutes a "legitimate protest" varied across Canada. Nationally, 31 per cent believed shutting down roads and railways was appropriate. Forty-three per cent of Atlantic Canadians agreed, but only 21 per cent in Saskatchewan and Manitoba concurred.

As for cooperation, a majority (56 per cent) of Canadians believe neither Canada's First Nations nor the Harper government is being fair. When the results were dissected by political party support, 56 per cent of Conservative supporters thought the Harper government has been reasonable during this dispute. Twenty-eight per cent of Bloc Quebecois supporters believed First Nations were more fair.

An equal number of NDP and Liberal supporters (58 per cent) agreed that neither side was more reasonable.

Almost two-thirds (63 per cent) of Canadians believe Ottawa should be helping to raise the quality of life for Aboriginal Canadians. Support on this issue was the greatest in Atlantic Canada (68 per cent), while less than half (49 per cent) of respondents in Saskatchewan and Manitoba agreed.

From Friday to Monday, 1,023 Canadian adults were interviewed online for this survey, which was weighted to bring it in line with Canadian demographics, and has a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points.

With files from Jacques Bourbeau and Rebecca Lindell

See a breakdown of the results based on respondents' sex and age: http://www.scribd.com/doc/120545070/Ipsos-Reid-poll-for-Global-News-on-First-Nations-issues


----------



## Jungle (15 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Metatawabin says many Canadians just don't understand the issues facing First Nations. "We are not money-grabbers. We just get limited funding."



Yeah... and we're swimming in cash... this is fucking insulting.


----------



## a_majoor (16 Jan 2013)

More on how Canadians are reacting to the INM and other aspects of the "Indian Industry":

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/15/majority-of-canadians-concerned-about-financial-accountability-on-first-nations-reserves-poll/



> *Majority of Canadians concerned about financial accountability on First Nations reserves: poll*
> 
> Michael Woods, Postmedia News | Jan 15, 2013 6:29 PM ET
> More from Postmedia News
> ...



This level of support should give the Prime Minister, the AFN reformers and the government room to move, and negate those idiots who try to use the race card to block change, and those who feed off the current status quo in the so called "Indian Industry". Time to move


----------



## Pandora114 (16 Jan 2013)

Milkshakes are still considered a "liquid"


----------



## Journeyman (16 Jan 2013)

Pandora114 said:
			
		

> Milkshakes are still considered a "liquid"


So is Jack Daniels.    :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So is Jack Daniels.    :nod:



Now that is a liquid diet I could get into!


----------



## medicineman (16 Jan 2013)

Pandora114 said:
			
		

> Milkshakes are still considered a "liquid"



And I put six pounds on as a teenager living off of them when I had my jaw wired shut for 8 weeks...

MM


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Jan 2013)

And the Kitchen Ninja could liquefy pretty much anything else available at the drive through, too...  ;D


----------



## Bluebulldog (16 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And the Kitchen Ninja could liquefy pretty much anything else available at the drive through, too...  ;D



mmmmm.........pureed Big Mac and fries........


----------



## Pandora114 (16 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And the Kitchen Ninja could liquefy pretty much anything else available at the drive through, too...  ;D



Yup, that's how my husband's sgt is eating after his jaw surgery.

Christmas Dinner was funny, a maj brought her ninja blender so the poor guy could enjoy the roast beef dinner he wanted.


----------



## The_Falcon (16 Jan 2013)

That last article brings up an interesting concept, one I don't think has been discussed here, or been taken into account by many in the INM and their associated hangers on.  And that is the whole concept of a higher non-WASP immigrant population that has no history or connection to any of this mess, and despite what some naysayers say and think, work their butts off to eek out a barely middle class existence.  I can see how they might not look to favourably on handing out billions (of their money) without proper accounting of it, and see it is being pissed away.  They might even start voicing their displeasure to their elected officials, and as their numbers grow, those officials might actually start listening since their prospects of re-election could very well depend on it.

Thoughts ?


----------



## larry Strong (16 Jan 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> But they are not.  They gave away the "sovereign nation" status with _*Treaties # 5 and # 9.*_  If they want to conveniently forget this "sin of their forefathers" then we should not be held accountable of any of the "sins of our forefathers" (which they (all visible minorities) so often remind us of and hold us accountable for), and we are left with this:
> 
> 
> From Treaty No. 5, 20 September 1875:
> ...



Treaty #5 and #9 deal with the James Bay area and Manitoba with small bits of Ontario and Saskatchewan respectively. Have the Alberta natives ceded their lands as well? If so what Treaties were they?

My Google-fu does not seem to be working for me today and I can't find any answers.



Thanks
Larry


----------



## Retired AF Guy (16 Jan 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> That last article brings up an interesting concept, one I don't think has been discussed here, or been taken into account by many in the INM and their associated hangers on.  And that is the whole concept of a higher non-WASP immigrant population that has no history or connection to any of this mess, and despite what some naysayers say and think, work their butts off to eek out a barely middle class existence.  I can see how they might not look to favourably on handing out billions (of their money) without proper accounting of it, and see it is being pissed away.  They might even start voicing their displeasure to their elected officials, and as their numbers grow, those officials might actually start listening since their prospects of re-election could very well depend on it.
> 
> Thoughts ?



Excellent point. Sixty per cent of people living in Toronto are of immigrant background, so when they see their lives being disrupted by native protests they are, like you state, will voice their displeasure. Not good news for Liberal's/NDP who are supportive of the native protests.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Excellent point. Sixty per cent of people living in Toronto are of immigrant background, so when they see their lives being disrupted by native protests they are, like you state, will voice their displeasure. Not good news for Liberal's/NDP who are supportive of the native protests.



It doesn't matter. They're all infidels settlers.  (sounds familiar)


----------



## Retired AF Guy (16 Jan 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Treaty #5 and #9 deal with the James Bay area and Manitoba with small bits of Ontario and Saskatchewan respectively. Have the Alberta natives ceded their lands as well? If so what Treaties were they?
> 
> My Google-fu does not seem to be working for me today and I can't find any answers.
> 
> ...



A map of the different treaties as they pertain to the prairie provinces. 
Source: _Loyal till Death: Indians and the North-West Rebellion. By Blair Stonechild and Bill Waiser_


----------



## uptheglens (16 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter. Their all infidels settlers.  (sounds familiar)



But will still be called white.


----------



## larry Strong (16 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> A map of the different treaties as they pertain to the prairie provinces.
> Source: _Loyal till Death: Indians and the North-West Rebellion. By Blair Stonechild and Bill Waiser_



Many thanks. Gonna have too figure out how to make the map bigger. Might have to buy the book



Larry


----------



## ballz (16 Jan 2013)

An Edmonton woman drove through the blockade (today I think). Yeah, real peaceful crowd...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid868989705001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAybGjzqk~,6NfTc6c241GVQxOh-GBHNHu5Cuhlf-y9&bctid=2098845632001

"You're gonna kill someone" No shit, then get the fuck off the road.


----------



## larry Strong (16 Jan 2013)

An ordinary citizen also went to counter protest:

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/01/20130116-170014.html

Larry


----------



## ballz (17 Jan 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> An ordinary citizen also went to counter protest:
> 
> http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/01/20130116-170014.html
> 
> Larry



They really make it sound like he needs their permission to stand there peacefully with his sign. Unbelievable.

EDIT to add: He wasn't exactly making the most compelling argument either ("the Jews got over it") but as soon as they started with their nonsense they just embarrass themselves without his help.


----------



## larry Strong (17 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> They really make it sound like he needs their permission to stand there peacefully with his sign. Unbelievable.
> 
> EDIT to add: He wasn't exactly making the most compelling argument either ("the Jews got over it") but as soon as they started with their nonsense they just embarrass themselves without his help.



Yeah that's why I was asking above, about treaties out west here! As the chief keeps mentioning that the road was theirs. He - the civie - should have had all his counter points ready before he showed up in my view.



Larry


----------



## ballz (17 Jan 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> He - the civie - should have had all his counter points ready before he showed up in my view.



For sure, but unfortunately I don't think a reasoned, intelligent debate would have transpired regardless :-\


----------



## Old Sweat (17 Jan 2013)

This piece by Terry Glavin from the 16 January Ottawa Citizen, reproducded under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act, does a pretty good job of putting the various pieces in perspective. It does little in raise my comfort level as it demonstrates that the AFN is badly divided.


AFN obstructionists will stop at nothing

By Terry Glavin, Ottawa Citizen January 16, 2013 


Let’s say that somehow, the eruption we’ve all agreed to call Idle No More results in a historic breakthrough between Ottawa and Canada’s diverse and deeply troubled First Nations.

Let’s say the covenant recognizes and affirms aboriginal and treaty rights and contains a specific, collaborative action plan to deal with the urgent challenges of aboriginal childhood education, economic development, First Nations governance and accountability. Plus it comes with a startup $275 million just to be sure the rubber hits the road. And it’s announced at a historic gathering in Ottawa with the senior First Nations chiefs, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and even Governor-General David Johnston.

Now let’s say along comes an obstructionist “movement” that masquerades as militant but is really a minority faction of eccentric and reactionary Indian band chiefs who are hopelessly devoted to the status quo. They set out to methodically undermine the agreement. They hijack the work plan. Within a year they’ve pretty well sabotaged the whole thing.

You would not know it for all the pageantry and the rhetoric about genocide and treaties and insurrection, but that’s just one untold story of Idle No More so far. There was such an agreement. It was called the Joint Action Plan, dated June 9, 2011. It was systematically derailed, piece by piece, and its saboteurs are now among the loudest and most theatrical characters in the Idle No More drama.

It’s what British Columbia regional chief Jody Wilson-Raybould was talking about when she told the CBC last Sunday: “No one should use those movements as political opportunities to play power politics within the AFN.” But the opportunities have been taken, the power politics have been played, and for all the unhinged activist denunciations of the ruling Conservatives, it is the Assembly of First Nations that has been nearly riven asunder by all this.

It is not our sinister genius of a prime minister who’s in sick bay on doctor’s orders this week (pollster Ipsos-Reid reported Tuesday that the prime minister’s approval ratings are just fine). It’s Shawn Atleo, the visionary 46-year-old AFN national chief and co-author of the 2011 Joint Action Plan. Chief Atleo is expected to be off work pulling knives out of his back for perhaps two weeks.

This is not to traduce those four Saskatoon women whose earnest if unhelpfully paranoid reading of the 457-page parliamentary indignity packaged as Bill C-45 set off the Idle No More flash mobs in the first place. And great tribute is owed those thousands of aboriginal people who have marched in the snow, jingle danced at the mall and paraded down Main Street.

But to regard every harmless sidewalk gathering of drummers and singers as somehow ominously newsworthy is tolerable only until actual “news” occurs and it isn’t even noticed. Like last Sunday, when Aboriginal Affairs Minister John Duncan unveiled a $330.8-million investment in water and sewer systems in First Nations communities across the country, along with a long-term strategy to fix the drinking-water mess that afflicts so many Indian reserves.


Maybe it wasn’t that big a deal, but perhaps if Duncan had dressed up like Sir Isaac Brock, shuttle-bused the Ottawa press gallery down to Queenston Heights and acted out the lines of the announcement in interpretive dance, you might have at least heard about it.

Not that “social media” have helped to clarify much.

Everyone from James Bay Cree Grand Chief Matthew Coon Come to New Democratic Party Leader Thomas Mulcair has expressed the wish that Attawapiskat Chief Theresa “willing to die for my people” Spence would just knock it off and go home. Even the Aboriginal People’s Television Network calls Chief Spence’s hunger strike at the Victoria Island aboriginal folk park merely a “liquids-only fast.”

But here’s what you get from the activist webzine The Canadian Progressive: “Hunger-striking Attawapiskat First Nation Chief Theresa Spence is the reincarnation of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. She is becoming the greatest moral and political leader of our time. In fact, Chief Theresa Spence’s courage and sacrifice already eclipses that of South Africa’s globally celebrated anti-apartheid icon, Nelson Mandela.”

It took only two months for an Internet meme to morph into a national news obsession. Now it’s the main alibi available to the bullying, anti-democratic minority that’s been paralyzing the AFN all along. Among the faction’s most prominent personalities are Manitoba Chief Derek Nepinak, Onion Lake Cree Chief Wally Fox and Serpent River Chief Isadore Day. These are the stout lads who came to Parliament Hill Dec. 4 intending to make a scene, purportedly about Bill C-45, and immediately resorted to roughhousing with House of Commons security guards for the television cameras.

Last February, only a month after the historic Crown-First Nations gathering in Ottawa, Chief Fox scored his first direct hit when he convinced the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations to reject the Crown-First Nations joint action plan in its entirety. The plan’s centrepiece was its far-reaching overhaul of and investment in aboriginal education.

The obstructionists boycotted the AFN’s own internal education task force and then had the gall to protest a lack of consultation when Atleo and Minister Duncan hammered out the beginning of a legislative strategy.

By last October, after a three-day session led mainly by Chief Nepinak, Atleo emerged to announce grimly that even his beloved education plan was history.

Then there’s Pam Palmater, the Rabble.ca columnist and Mi’kmaq academic whom Atleo thrashed in a 341-141 vote in last summer’s AFN elections. Palmater campaigned on the nasty claim that Atleo had “gone rogue” and was quietly collaborating with the incorrigibly right-wing Stephen Harper to transform the AFN into “the Assimilation of First Nations.” By late December, Palmater had emerged as the most prominent official spokesperson and organizer for Idle No More.

By last week, Nepinak, Fox and the rest were forming up in entourage behind Chief Spence in a grotesquely staged fiasco that was aimed solely at bullying the AFN executive to boycott the meeting Chief Atleo and Prime Minister Harper had managed to arrange in the Langevin Block. The obstructionists failed. But they haven’t stopped.


Last Sunday, Ernie Crey, the former United Native Nations vice-president who was the first aboriginal leader to openly question the motives of certain of Idle No More’s slickest champions, told me: Just watch, these demagogues have already insinuated themselves into Idle No More’s national spotlight and they’ll soon be busy “hounding the national chief from office.”

Two days later, APTN National News’s Jorge Barrera, on agreement that he wouldn’t name names, acquired a string of emails circulating in the obstructionist camp. One chief said Chief Atleo’s sudden medical leave had the “stench of seeking pity” about it. Another joked that Chief Atleo might prefer to take up some “less stressful position” in British Columbia. Another wrote that Chief Atleo should take “permanent leave.”

After losing to Atleo in last summer’s AFN elections, Pam Palmater declared: “We’re going to keep going. This is a movement that won’t stop now.” This isn’t the note one strikes in a graceful concession speech. Palmater wasn’t talking about Idle No More, either, when she said, “Our movement is strong.”

It certainly is. It’s just not quite the same “movement” we’ve all been hearing about.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (17 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> An Edmonton woman drove through the blockade (today I think). Yeah, real peaceful crowd...
> 
> http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid868989705001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAybGjzqk~,6NfTc6c241GVQxOh-GBHNHu5Cuhlf-y9&bctid=2098845632001
> 
> "You're gonna kill someone" No shit, then get the fuck off the road.



This type of stuff will likely happen more and more as people say "F-off" to illegal action by INM.  I say well done.  They've no right to block traffic.  Someone finally had the 'nads to say "pftttttttt whatever".


----------



## larry Strong (17 Jan 2013)

Apparantly the Chief that stated it was their land was correct.......sort of.....if this was pre-1889......reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act 

*Alberta's Papaschase grievances are largely illusory *   




> The first thing to remember about the Idle No More blockade that kinda, sorta happened on the QEII highway just south of town on Wednesday is that the group behind it - the Papaschase First Nation - isn't even a real aboriginal band.
> 
> If anything, Papaschase is an air band - existing only in thin air. It has a chief, but no reserve. Even the Supreme Court of Canada has rejected its attempt to file a land claim. Yet there they were disrupting the busiest highway in the province.
> 
> ...



The remainder of the article which deals more with the INM can be found here;

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2013/01/20130117-075439.html


Larry


----------



## a_majoor (17 Jan 2013)

It seems to me that if an agreement has been worked out with the AFN, then the government should carry on regardless, with one significant addition: any band or group which "opts out" will be ignored by the GoC, while bands which work with the AFN and GoC get the funding and assistance offered. It is quite clear that the government's communications strategy is off; they should not only be pushing these announcements forward wherever and whenever they can, but also using the existence of these agreements and programs as the lead in counterattacking the narrative of the INM, the legacy media and the Indian Industry and its apologists.

The damning audit of Chief Spence and the support of the majority of Canadians for real reform of the system is a golden opportunity to neutralize the race card and bypass the obstructionists, the GoC should be moving much faster and more forcefully in my opinion.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (17 Jan 2013)

Blockade's of rail lines and roads a terrorist act?

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/2096467291001


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jan 2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkmsMjxhZqc

I hope the government doesn't call in the army to pick up the OPPs slack.


----------



## medicineman (17 Jan 2013)

Driving home from work alst night and I saw a pile of RCMP cruisers blocking alot of north bound traffic off the Trans-Canada near Highway 16...turns out the CN line was being blockaded.  Wonder what's going to happen when someone just decides that "OMG, my brakes just failed!!" or "The train was going too fast to stop in time officer"?

People are starting to say enough is enough already...

MM


----------



## Retired AF Guy (17 Jan 2013)

medicineman said:
			
		

> People are starting to say enough is enough already...
> 
> MM



A couple of polls out in the last few days say the same thing; people are getting fed up and are saying no more tax money to the natives.


----------



## ballz (17 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkmsMjxhZqc
> 
> I hope the government doesn't call in the army to pick up the OPPs slack.



I'd like to know exactly what response people are complaining about? It seems there hasn't been one to criticize.



			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> A couple of polls out in the last few days say the same thing; people are getting fed up and are saying no more tax money to the natives.



I said this from the start. If the Gov't shut down these protesters right off the bat it be portrayed as muzzling and abusing the First Nations. All they had to do was wait for INM to piss off enough people and then they would have full support in drawing a hard line. Every protest is a PR campaign at the end of the day, and pissing off your every day Joe and stopping him from getting work or getting to medical appointments, etc, is a sure way to lose that campaign.


----------



## ModlrMike (17 Jan 2013)

Seems even HM is not amused:

Queen declines to intervene in Chief Spence's protest


----------



## Jed (17 Jan 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Seems even HM is not amused:
> 
> Queen declines to intervene in Chief Spence's protest



 Whaaaa? Even Puss'n Boots got to see the Queen.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Even Puss'n Boots got to see the Queen.


Speaks volumes about credibility -- Puss'n Boots obviously hadn't squandered his.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Jan 2013)

Sad thing is there are probably a lot of people out there int he INM/AFN camp just PRAYING that Spence miraculously starves herself to death just so they can go berserk and cause a scene.

Spence is a 16 year old kid who was caught cheating on boyfriend and is saying if you break up with me I'll kill myself.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (17 Jan 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Many thanks. Gonna have too figure out how to make the map bigger. Might have to buy the book
> 
> 
> 
> Larry



Try this.


----------



## Robert0288 (17 Jan 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Seems even HM is not amused:
> 
> Queen declines to intervene in Chief Spence's protest



I must not have been paying attention to what I was doing, but I read the comments on that CBC article, and for the first time in a long while I started to have a little hope in humanity again.


----------



## larry Strong (17 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Try this.




Thank you. 


Larry


----------



## kratz (17 Jan 2013)

It's been two whole days since we heard from Mayor Spence in the news. 

For a moment there, I thought we broke that winning streak.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

CBC and Weight Watchers lost interest about the same time.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (18 Jan 2013)

I don't think you will see Spence get an offer to endorse Slim-Fast or those type of products.

"Look at me, after only 3 months on *insert product name*, I lost....the respect of pretty much everyone in Canada!  If you take *insert product name*, and make a fool of yourself on a national level...you TOO have ability to affect people in a way that I have;  when they hear my name THEY lose their appetites!".

Or...they'd have to invent a new product called _Slim-SLOW_.   >


----------



## jollyjacktar (18 Jan 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Treaty #5 and #9 deal with the James Bay area and Manitoba with small bits of Ontario and Saskatchewan respectively. Have the Alberta natives ceded their lands as well? If so what Treaties were they?
> 
> My Google-fu does not seem to be working for me today and I can't find any answers.
> 
> ...



Treaty #7 is what was signed in Southern Alberta.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Jan 2013)

FYI, zoomable Treaty map:
http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/historical/indiantreaties/historicaltreaties

More detailed maps of individual Treaty areas:
http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/historical/indiantreaties/historicaltreaties/8


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 Jan 2013)

Here is an interesting and helpful perspective (from ten days ago) on the _Crown_ : _First Nations_ relationship. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _MacLean's_:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/01/11/on-idle-no-more-the-governor-general-should-remain-idle/


> On the power of the Governor General
> *A debate about the role of the David Johnston may seem arcane, but it’s also revealing*
> 
> by Emmett Macfarlane on Friday, January 11, 2013
> ...




Sadly, I think the government's "attempt at reconciliation" did fail because too many First Nation leaders and people simply refuse to recognize that the Constitution of Canada is not a static, 19th century, thing.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2013)

Saw this today in my FB Newsfeed.   ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 Jan 2013)

In fact the _Globe and Mail_ is reporting that the AFN leadership has grown tired of Chief Spence's antics (only slightly later than Journeyman suggests happened with both the CBC and _Weight Watchers_   ) and they, too, see them as counterproductive. 

But the AFN, like the many and varied First Nations peoples themselves, are deeply divided - not just about what they want the government to do but, more important, *WHY* they want the government to do much of anything.


----------



## Bluebulldog (21 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In fact the _Globe and Mail_ is reporting that the AFN leadership has grown tired of Chief Spence's antics (only slightly later than Journeyman suggests happened with both the CBC and _Weight Watchers_   ) and they, too, see them as counterproductive.
> 
> But the AFN, like the many and varied First Nations peoples themselves, are deeply divided - not just about what they want the government to do but, more important, *WHY* they want the government to do much of anything.



Makes it very hard to say to the people of Canada that they are united in their "struggle"...when quite frankly very few on their so-called movement can agree what exactly it is they're struggling for.

Chief Spence's sideshow in the Rideau ( catchy title...Ezra...borrow if you like), represents the First Nations people and their concerns, much in the same way reality TV represents "real life".


----------



## krustyrl (21 Jan 2013)

Is Spence still hunger-striking dieting.?  Seems that the TV news has her dropped off their radar. Maybe her 15 mins are coming up.


----------



## Old Sweat (21 Jan 2013)

She apparently was on Question Period yesterday where she claimed (a) she was being smeared; and (b) she had lost 30 pounds. I got this second hand reports this morning. She also demanded a formal meeting with the GG and the PM on a nation-to-nation basis.


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## Scott (21 Jan 2013)

Smoke and mirrors.


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## Kat Stevens (21 Jan 2013)

Smokin' something, anyway...


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## Scott (21 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Smokin' something, anyway...



That *increases* appetite. She doesn't need that additional problem.


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## Bluebulldog (21 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> She apparently was on Question Period yesterday where she claimed (a) she was being smeared; and (b) she had lost 30 pounds. I got this second hand reports this morning. She also demanded a formal meeting with the GG and the PM on a nation-to-nation basis.



Dropping your furs, buckskin, and down filled garments at the door must count as the better part of the 30 lbs she's speaking of.


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## Robert0288 (21 Jan 2013)

So she hasn't eaten in a month+ and only lost 30 pounds?  I've seen adds for diet programs promise at least double that amount.


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## Scott (21 Jan 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> So she hasn't eaten in a month+ and only lost 30 pounds?  I've seen adds for diet programs promise at least double that amount.



According to her, or the boyfriend, she's lost 30 pounds.

Remember that.


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## Jed (21 Jan 2013)

I suggest that she put all this speculation to rest and she has a CBC monitored and CTV / Opposition supervised weigh-in every morning. Then we could display a Power Point Bar graph, maybe impose Ghandi's weight data on a slide in the background.


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## Pandora114 (21 Jan 2013)

She doesn't look like she lost 30lbs.

She still looks like a walrus.  No offense to walruses...

_apologies to the walrus. img removed_

*nodnod*


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2013)

Has this been posted?

I don't think the #occupyINM crowd could look worse if they tried.
It's painful to watch how stupid they come across.  A great example of disregarding facts by shouting mantras.


'Idle No More' Protesters Confront Ezra Levant Over Alleged Racism

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/20/idle-no-more-toronto-sun-protest_n_2516125.html?utm_hp_ref=tw


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## JorgSlice (21 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Has this been posted?
> 
> I don't think the #occupyINM crowd could look worse if they tried.
> It's painful to watch how stupid they come across.  A great example of disregarding facts by shouting mantras.
> ...



What a bunch of morons. Ezra is the only one with his head on right... they can't even give a good argument.


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## Jed (21 Jan 2013)

Wow! That was quite a shameful display of the the basic nature of the people supporting the INM movement in TO.

Such great role models for the Canadian youth.  :facepalm:


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## Remius (21 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Wow! That was quite a shameful display of the the basic nature of the people supporting the INM movement in TO.
> 
> Such great role models for the Canadian youth.  :facepalm:



As opposed to the awesome role models here posting pics of Spence and comparing her to a walrus...just saying.


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## JorgSlice (21 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> As opposed to the awesome role models here posting pics of Spence and comparing her to a walrus...just saying.



Yes. Because frauds deserve to be humiliated in any and every capacity.


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## Pandora114 (21 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> As opposed to the awesome role models here posting pics of Spence and comparing her to a walrus...just saying.


My apologies to the Walrus, I'll remove the pic


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## Robert0288 (21 Jan 2013)

Idle no more protesting at sun media because they do not moderate open comments on their website. :facepalm:



> She told CBC News she believes that Sun Media in general is biased in its reporting, but she says that isn't the worst part.
> "The comment boards, [on the newspaper's website] they refuse to mediate in any meaningful way," said Woroniak.



source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2013/01/12/mb-idle-no-more-protesters-winnipeg-sun-office.html


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Yes. Because frauds deserve to be humiliated in any and every capacity.



Frauds humiliate themselves. In the video I posted Ezra asked simple logical  questions and let the speakers do the rest. Some couldn't even articulate why they were there.

It looks like at points some of the people speaking to Ezra wanted to punch the other INM members in the face.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Yes. Because frauds deserve to be humiliated in any and every capacity.



Yes, but posting things like that or Jabba the Hutt etc lowers the level of discussion.  I think she`s a fraud and really a joke at all levels.  But it`s no different than a lefty activist posting pics of Hitler and Harper.


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## Jed (21 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Yes, but posting things like that or Jabba the Hutt etc lowers the level of discussion.  I think she`s a fraud and really a joke at all levels.  But it`s no different than a lefty activist posting pics of Hitler and Harper.



Good on you, Crantor, for holding the completely unbiased moral high ground. Although I do think in life we have to have a little give and take otherwise life becomes exceedingly dull and run by the PC police.


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## Remius (21 Jan 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Good on you, Crantor, for holding the completely unbiased moral high ground. Although I do think in life we have to have a little give and take otherwise life becomes exceedingly dull and run by the PC police.



I can`t claim to be completely unbiased or having the moral high ground.  I just found it ironic that on the same page we decry how the other side (yes I am calling them that) acts and we do the same thing.  That being said, I did smile at the comparasion.

At any rate.  The problem is that the INM is being overrun by professional activists.  They did it to occupy, they did it to the student movement and they are doing it here.  I heard more about palastine, and  corporate greed on that video than anything that adresses the INM issues.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> At any rate.  The problem is that the INM is being overrun by professional activists.  They did it to occupy, they did it to the student movement and they are doing it here.  I heard more about palastine, and  corporate greed on that video than anything that adresses the INM issues.



I heard that and was confused. Since when was INM about palastine and jews and nazi's and corporations?


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## Rifleman62 (21 Jan 2013)

http://jr2020.blogspot.com/2013/01/ezra-greets-idlenomores-pathetic-anti.html 

Second video Ezra explains that it was him who the Police removed because it was the easy way out, not the right thing to do.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jan 2013)

The root of the problem is found in and article in the _National Post_ headlined: Harper leaves no doubt: Governor-General will not be included in any future First Nations policy discussions.

The article says: "Ms. Spence ... maintains that First Nations bands signed nation-to-nation treaties with the Crown — not Canada."

The problem is that Ms. Spence and the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people, FNs and others alike, who agree with her are *Constitutionally illiterate*.

The Crown and Canada are one: the Crown, as I have said several times in these pages, has three _natures_: on the bench, in parliament and in council. It is in that third _nature_, the Governor General in Council, that the Crown and Canada are one and same in so far as dealings with First Nations is concerned. Governor General David Johnston has _inherited_ ALL of Queen Victoria's rights, duties and obligations (see King George VI's letters patent from 1947) and, like Queen Victoria, he delegates ALL policy issues to his Privy Council - to his cabinet. If Ms. Spence, or anyone else, is unable to grasp that simple concept then she cannot negotiate with any adult, much less the GG.


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## Scott (22 Jan 2013)

You know that Spence and her ilk aren't going to let something like that get in their way. Besides, they're too busy yelling to engage in rational discussion anyway. As far as the crowd that went to find Ezra Levant - same applies. Too busy screaming to hear what their own counterparts are saying.

 :boring:


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## Bluebulldog (22 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> You know that Spence and her ilk aren't going to let something like that get in their way. Besides, they're too busy yelling to engage in rational discussion anyway. As far as the crowd that went to find Ezra Levant - same applies. Too busy screaming to hear what their own counterparts are saying.
> 
> :boring:



Found it interesting that at the beginning, most of the folks who confronted Ezra were not able to effectively articulate what exactly their complaints were, and instead simply fell back on the old nugget "racism"...as their main argument. Of course when prodded by an educated individual like Mr. Levant as to some of the more salient points of their position, they simply fell apart. So much so that at the end of the informal "gab session" their own handlers were trying to get most of them to simply shut up, realizing that most of them were in fact doing more damage than good.

The unfortunate part of all of this, is that there were probably people who were there ( the young guy in the white snowboard jacket) who were mislead, and lied to about a "cause" and the reasons for the whole show in the first place. But with woeful track record of reserves educating their people, he actually in fact indirectly served the argument for scrapping the Indian Act. 

....and nothing in the news about Chief / Mayor Spence for over 24 hours now.......  ;D


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## ArmyGuy99 (22 Jan 2013)

Here's the link to the interview with CTV Question Period

http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=847501&binId=1.810401

I watched this and I'm even more convinced that she hasn't got a clue.  I'm even more convinced that she needs someone, a lawyer or Canadian History teacher, to teach her and her people/handlers etc, about our Charter and the various acts both here and in England that created our country, and what defines the crown exactly.  

I shake my head at this.  Even the host seemed bewildered at times.  

Has it been 15 min yet?


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## Scott (22 Jan 2013)

Label, denounce, repeat.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Jan 2013)

http://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/oily-chiefs-idle-no-more-and-the-afn/



> by Zig Zag, Warrior Publications, January 17, 2013Idle No More protect enviro sign
> 
> To fully understand the phenomenon of Idle No More, you must imagine two parallel universes. In one, INM is comprised of good-hearted grassroots Native people responding to a call to oppose Bill C-45 and to protect the land and water of their traditional territories. In the other, however, are chiefs using the mobilization to achieve their political & economic agenda, an agenda that includes partnering with corporations seeking to exploit oil and gas resources on reserve lands.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Jan 2013)

This might help explain the Crown's responsibilities towards First Nations. When we say Crown we mean, explicitly, the Government of Canada ~ Her Majesty's Government ~ the prime minister and cabinet. The _Supremes_ have, fairly consistently, held that Canada a) has been less than fair and honest in its dealing with First Nations, sullying the "honour of the Crown" (disgracing ourselves, in other words) and b) must be ready to interpret treaties in the spirit in which they were entered into rather that insisting that we can simply conform the letter of the text.


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## ModlrMike (23 Jan 2013)

The irony is, I think, that THIS government actually wants to improve things, wants to renovate the Indian Act. The "industry" just won't let them do so.


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## ballz (23 Jan 2013)

I thought it was interesting that a few of the Liberal leadership candidates have proposed to get rid of the Indian Act as well.

IMO there can be no solution without the First Nations governments being forced to abide by some system of accountability. People are weak and are easily corrupted by greed and power, there is no shortage of historical evidence of that. No matter what we try to do, the results will never make it through the filter of corrupt leadership. Our modern day systems have evolved to a point that yes, they may be full of expensive red tape, but it is hard for someone to be corrupted without at least being caught. In the accounting world its always said along the lines of "You can't stop collusion, but you can make it a pain in the ass." In other words, make it so complicated and require so many people that it's just not worth the squeeze.

I think if the Conservatives can make that happen, either through negotation or forcing it through legislation (if that's even possible), they'll have done more for the First Nations than any government to date.


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## Bluebulldog (23 Jan 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/01/23/attawapiskat-spence-hunger-strike.html

"_A delegation that includes interim Liberal leader Bob Rae and northern Ontario deputy grand chief Alvin Fiddler has been working closely with Spence to hash out a dignified solution._"



Translation....."I've used up my 15 minutes of fame, made a complete a$$ of myself, probably set back the First Nations cause, and need a way to get back home under the radar."


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## Journeyman (23 Jan 2013)

You forgot the bit about "nursing herself back to health."    :


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## GAP (23 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You forgot the bit about "nursing herself back to health."    :



That's what Burger King is for.....


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## Scott (23 Jan 2013)

Shared with the usual caveats: http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/507481-spence-to-lay-out-conditions-to-end-hunger-strike



> Spence to lay out conditions to end hunger strike
> 
> January 23, 2013 - 8:46am By The Canadian Press
> 
> ...



 :


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## Remius (23 Jan 2013)

That article sums it up when it states that Spence's hunger strike has thrown the relations between Ottawa and FNs into disarray.

I can't even begin to figure out how disjointed this entire thing has become.

Idle No More had (and I say had because I think it has lost its legitimacy because of people like Spence, professional activists that hoped on the band wagon and other attention seeking chiefs) the oportunity to bring valid issues and concerns to the fore and raise awareness of FN concerns.

Unfortunately it has been drowned out for several reasons.  Spence's hunger strike, likely designed to distract, did quite the opposite.  It shined a light and a microscope on financial mismanagement on some reserves.  And I say some because some are quite successful.  But if you want to get Canadians' attention tell them how mispent their tax money is.  I will not go so far as saying that what was done was criminal but I am positive that gross incompetance played a part.

Add to the mix what seems to be political infighting and posturing from the AFN and things start to spin.  

To make matters worse, actvists are highjacking the whole thing.  Palestine?  jews?  Corporate greed?  Really?  Thanks for coming out.

When it comes to FNs, they are a proud people (or peoples is more appropriate).  But so are Canadians (I realise FN are Canadians but I use this here in the non-FN context for contrast, so please forgive the slight).  Making threats and ultimatums don't work.  You see, Canadians are mostly moderates.  Extreme actions and extreme language kind of turns them off. 

The problem lies in the fact that we have a plethora of FN tribes, bands etc accross the country and defining each issue takes a different approach.  I very much believe that multi lateral approaches are needed.  I think at the federal level, the Government should set the tone.  Scrap the Indian Act and find something more suitable and with the times.  Maybe an Aboriginal Charter or whatever that clearly defines FNs place in Canada as a whole.  But, there should be more negociations at the provincial, territorial and quite possibly municipal level.  i would like to think that some, like the Cree in Quebec with the James Bay treaty or the Inuit in Nunavut are examples of where this can work.   What's good for the Cree may not be good for the Haida of BC etc etc.  by giving the provinces more power to negotiate and deal, I believe we'll see better and more creative solution.

But at the same time FNs have to be willing to do so. Tantrums, pouting and posturing isn't going to get them what they want or need.  There has to be some give and take from both sides to make this work.

And don't kid yourself.  FN communities, while having perhaps more connection to the land because of their heritage, are also out to profit.  like anyone else.  Historically FNs have been very adaptable to new technolgies and tactics to their benefit.  Trading with Europeans to gain advantage over rivals was quite common.  The same can be said today.  And in our type of society today there is nothing wrong with that.  Ultimately they (FNs) will need to integrate fully into the system.  this does not mean sacrificing values and culture.  I said this before.  It's about bringing what they have to benefit themselves and our country as whole.  And the rest of Canada should leverage that to its benefit as well.  FNs are the fastest growing demographic in Canada.  We need to harness that.  The alternative is a powder keg of dissallusioned people all in their prime with nothing to lose.  

The world changes and I think that both sides, all sides, should change their approaches with it.


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## Jed (23 Jan 2013)

Good post Crantor. I for one have this same point of view. My  :2c:


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## Infanteer (23 Jan 2013)

Well said Crantor.


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## ModlrMike (23 Jan 2013)

The real problem is that folks like Pam Palmater and her ilk conflate integration with assimilation. I think that most people, indeed most FN, would welcome the former over the later, were the rhetoric dialed down.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Jan 2013)

The Gov't of Canada and the people of Canada (including FN), are under no obligation whatsoever, to listen or give credence to Mayor Spence. She needs to be told that she doesn't speak for anyone but herself and has to go through the proper channels like any other plain Jane citizen. 

Even with Bob Rae and Charlie Angus ready to tie up Parliament and the Legislature while professing her martyrdom and demanding her saintdom. She should realize they only want talking time, a chance to theatrically berate the PM and don't really give a fiddler's fart about her demands. Simple vote pandering and eye poking is what they are all about.

She can't play to the 'white man's guilt' anymore. It was gone a long time ago and no longer exists for intelligent and educated people. She's only making a mockery of other FN peoples.

BTW, who's mismanaging Attawapiskat while she's on holiday at her all inclusive resort on the Ottawa river?


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## Remius (23 Jan 2013)

Just heard that tomorrow she'll be ending her hunger strike.


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## Journeyman (23 Jan 2013)

:boring:


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## Scott (23 Jan 2013)

:boring: Can't wait to see the spin and her lies.  :boring:


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## Kat Stevens (23 Jan 2013)

She would have gone longer, but her Kitchen Ninja dropped it's transmission trying to liquefy pizza and KFC big crunch combos.


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## MARS (23 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> She would have gone longer, but her Kitchen Ninja dropped it's transmission trying to liquefy pizza and KFC big crunch combos.



 :rofl:


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## Scott (23 Jan 2013)

That man deserves milpoints.


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## Bluebulldog (23 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> She would have gone longer, but her Kitchen Ninja dropped it's transmission trying to liquefy pizza and KFC big crunch combos.



Best post of the day! Milpoints inbound!


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## uptheglens (23 Jan 2013)




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## Remius (24 Jan 2013)

Well my predictions weren't too far off the mark.  She's in hospital and won't be at the press conference.

In an interesting twist.  Her own people (of Atawapiskat), were on their way to tell her to stop her hunger strike or quit as their chief.  

Link to article here from APTN news.  http://aptn.ca/pages/news/2013/01/23/spence-camp-waits-for-chiefs-opposition-leaders-to-sign-declaration-before-ending-fast/

So you have to wonder (abd not very hard I might add) how much of her ending her strike is attributable to her trying to save her job.  I guess her willing to die is limited by her risk of getting fired.  The irony of being given an ultimatum by her own people is not lost on me.


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## Rifleman62 (24 Jan 2013)

I like reading "A Bear's Rant". but then I agree with a lot of it.

http://abearsrant.com/2013/01/yesterday-was-a-busy-day-for-progressive-hypocrisy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ABearsRant+%28A+Bear%27s+Rant%29

*Yesterday Was A Busy Day For Progressive Hypocrisy*

Published January 24, 2013

_Hypocrite: (1) A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for. (2) A person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to them. (3) A person who holds other people to higher standards than he holds himself._

If you were ever looking for examples of hypocrisy and hypocrites hard at work, you wouldn’t have had to go much farther than the disgraceful display put on yesterday by Canada’s three opposition parties.

It started with Interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae, aided by NDP MP Charlie Angus ‘negotiating’ an end to the hunger strike charade by Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence. It was further augmented by the whining of Green Party Leader Elizabeth May about the refusal of her fellow progressives in other parties joining forces with her to defeat the Harper Conservatives in the next election.

Let’s recap a bit so we’re all on the same page.

Theresa Spence first came to national prominence when she went before the media to highlight the appalling poverty on her reserve. It was, to hear her tell it, all the fault of the Government of Canada and the opposition, the media and progressives in general were very quick to get all over that wicked Stephen Harper and his heartless Conservative Government. The self-righteous and sanctimonious anger was so thick, we almost choked on it.

And then the truth started to leak out.

It started with a follow-up report last January by CBC’s Adrienne Arsenault who visited Attawapiskat where she discovered Theresa Spence living large and toodling about the reserve in her Cadillac Escalade. Then Sun Media published the band’s own audited financial statements and that wasn’t pretty either.

In 2011, the band had an operating budget of $34 million for a community of only 1500 people, hardly starvation wages. While many on the reserve were living in desperate circumstance, the band had more than $8 million in investments including investments in the oils sands and pipelines.

Despite the amount of money available, only $12 million of the annual budget went to programs for the welfare of the community while an almost equivalent amount went to Theresa Spence, her boyfriend and members of band council and the band office for salaries and other compensation. Fewer than 100 people were carving up over $11 million.

A subsequent independent audit revealed that Chief Spence and her band council could not account for 81% of the expenditure on her reserve. To put that into a clearer perspective, the expenditure of $27 million was not properly documented or accounted for.

Chief Spence was given the results of the audit in August and put on notice that it would be made public at some point after she and the Government had time to review it and the Minister had signed it off. Not long afterwards, she made the decision to come to Ottawa and began her hunger strike demanding a meeting with the Prime Minister.

Since starting her melodrama on Victoria Island, the audit has been made public as required by law and Chief Spence has changed her demands continuously as she dfragged her sorry hunger strike charade through six weeks.

While nobody in the aboriginal progressive communities will admit it publicly, she had become an embarrassment. She had also become a pawn to be used by cynical politicians both aboriginal and no-aboriginal alike.

The CBC referred to Bob Rae’s efforts to negotiate an end to Theresa Spence grandstanding as ‘statesman like’. Give it a rest. This was no nation to nation negotiation. First and foremost, Bob Rae does not speak for Canada; he speaks for a decimated Liberal Party and only for a couple of more months. Attawapiskat is not an independent nation. Its residents are Canadian citizens and the band is financed primarily by the Government of Canada. Let’s get back to some basic truths and take our heads out of asses folks. Evan Solomon of the CBC’s Power & Politics with Evan Solomon can dress it up any way he likes but a pig in a silk suit is still just a pig in a silk suit.

If the Conservative Government were to be unable to document properly or account for 81% of its annual budget, the Opposition Parties would be storming the barricades not negotiating an honourable resolution to something with Stephen Harper.

And that, my friends, is nothing less than hypocrisy hard at work.

People like Charlie Angus and Bob Rae are very selective in who and what they criticize. What they consider a sin for one is not necessarily a sin for another. That isn’t adherence to a set of principles, it is political expediency; nothing more than an opportunity to provide the illusion of caring while not really caring about or standing for anything much at all.

They certainly don’t seem to care very much about the Canadian taxpayer who has tossed almost $100 million into Attawapiskat over the past five years. They’d rather grandstand with the woman who has no record of what she did with the money we provided than protect our interest so that we don’t end up continuing to make the same wasteful mistakes.

It’s enough to make you shudder at the thought of any of them being part of a government with its hands on the public purse – but then we’ve already seen in Ontario what Bob Rae is capable of doing when he is in control of public money and that was just plain ugly. It made Chief Spence’s spending habits look positively responsible.

Perhaps the greatest hypocrisy of all was the fact that Chief Spence’s own band (Remember them? They’re the people everyone claims to be concerned about but never mention) had decided they had had enough. The acting chief and a member of the band council announced they would be arriving in Ottawa yesterday with an ultimatum to be delivered to Theresa Spence; end the hunger strike and return home to attend to her duties or she would be removed as band chief.

There would be no ceremony honouring her ‘brave’ stand, no statues built in her honour and no speeches given in praise of her sacrifice. Basically it was going to be, get your ass back home or get fired.

That is what gave the Rae negotiations a sense of urgency. If progressives were to maintain any illusion of dignity for having supported this woman in her self-serving charade, they needed to get her to end it quickly and with some kind of claim of victory.

Enter the Declaration of Commitment, a 13-point declaration of stated objectives that is as meaningless and pointless as this entire affair has been. None of it is binding on the Government and the provinces are already signaling they aren’t going to play either when it comes to increased resource sharing.

Well isn’t that just one major accomplishment for six weeks of fish broth and a whole of lot of hypocritical hyperbole from the progressive Opposition Parties?

And so it will end today with a ceremony that will celebrate the accomplishment of absolutely nothing beyond a meaningless declaration. It will be just  more sanctimonious orgy of self-serving progressive hypocrisy.

The only good thing to be said is that after we suffer through the hypocrisy of today’s ceremony to honour this ridiculous woman, we won’t have to listen to daily reports about her any more.

And then there’s Green Party Leader Elizabeth May or the Queen of Green as some of us think her.

Ms May is greatly perturbed that her fellow progressives are not responding to her request to unite in a common, work-together strategy to defeat the Harper Conservatives in the next election. She accuses them of hyper-partisanship. Excuse me?

Ms May, who represents a party with one seat in Parliament, seems to feel that she’s a serious player in Canadian politics. She isn’t and the fact that those parties which are don’t see her as a player doesn’t make them hyper-partisan, just pragmatic. What advantage is there to them to get involved with a united strategy with her? She has nothing to bring to the table.

If anything, she would be the only one to possibly gain anything and only at the disadvantage of the other parties.

Her party represents less than 6% of the electorate and I would suggest the only reason it has even the one seat – hers – is because it threw all of its resources behind getting her elected in her own riding. So cynical is her hypocrisy that she moved from the east coast of Canada to the west coast in order to run in a riding that offered any real chance to win a seat. Her former supporters in the east were no longer relevant to her – she has new friends now.

What Elizabeth May fails to realize is that she is exactly what she condemns, a self-serving and hypocritical politician trying to feather her own nest. She is partisan, aligning herself only with those parties that come close to matching her own environmental fanaticism. She thought she was a leader and could unite the progressive left but she was wrong about that too. She mistook hubris for reality.

Her constant accusations of ideology against the current Prime Minister and her new accusation of partisanship against the opposition parties once again proves the old adage that the thing we fear in others is the thing we most fear in ourselves.

The Queen of Green is more like a yapping terrier than the queen of much of anything at all, especially principle.

All of this nonsense is wearying. It is gamesmanship rather than effective opposition with principled positions that benefit the country. It is hypocrisy where one group forgives their own sins and those whom they can use for their own purposes while condemning the same sins in someone else.

I have no issue with criticism of the government, in fact I encourage it. What I resent is the lack of principle behind what pretends to be informed government criticism these days. It is nothing less than hyper-partisan, petty politics. Issues are irrelevant, integrity is irrelevant; all that matters is scoring cheap political points at the expense of others. It is nothing but hypocrisy to condemn in others what you yourself do and quite frankly, nobody does that better than progressives these days.

I keep thinking that it would be nice to see politicians, especially progressive politicians who like to claim the moral high ground, return to simple concepts like consistently practicing the principle and morality they preach but it isn’t going to happen. It’s part of the DNA now and the only good thing coming out of it is that support for the Harper Government is increasing according to the latest polls.

You would have thought that might be a bit of a head-up for the left but apparently once hypocrisy gets into the political DNA – it’s not only a bugger to remove; it apparently is even more difficult to recognize.

————————————————————————————————————-

© 2012 Maggie’s Bear all rights reserved

The written content of this article is the sole property of Maggie’s Bear but a link to it may be shared by those who think it may be of interest to others

Read more at http://abearsrant.com/2013/01/yesterday-was-a-busy-day-for-progressive-hypocrisy.html#XCtjjuiBE2bVEpAz.99


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## Remius (24 Jan 2013)

Forgot to add:

END EX


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## Scott (24 Jan 2013)

More like: Checkmate.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Jan 2013)

Thinking positively, something always comes out of no good:

In a move to end world hunger the UN has officially requested access to Chief Spence’s fish broth recipe. 

Reasoning that if the Chief can survive for over 6 weeks on this soup without noticeably losing any of her considerable bulk, the World Health Organization has resolved to actually do something useful. In the future fish broth will replace food donations.

World harmony and health for all may be possible in our lifetime.


----------



## Journeyman (26 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> ...... the UN has officially requested access to Chief Spence’s fish broth recipe.


Considering the amount of money pissed away on her Reserve to no effect, it seems like a typical UN move.


----------



## Pandora114 (26 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Considering the amount of money pissed away on her Reserve to no effect, it seems like a typical UN move.



8 quarts of water,  the bones of 6 or 7 salmon, a tub of Crisco...boil for 3 hours then strain.  Voila


----------



## my72jeep (26 Jan 2013)

Pandora114 said:
			
		

> 8 quarts of water,  the bones of 6 or 7 salmon, a tub of Crisco...boil for 3 hours then strain.  Voila


Crisco or Lard?


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2013)

It's still quite sad that Spence managed to paint herself as a martyr with the IDM movement with her smoke and mirrors hunger strike.

Now that that phase of the plan is out of the way she managed to involve herself in talks on how to improve living conditions for all aboriginals despite the glaring bed shitting she did in her own little reserve. 

at least all of this exposed the "reservation chief" industry.


----------



## Pandora114 (26 Jan 2013)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Crisco or Lard?



Crisco.  Nothing beats partially hydrogenated crap to fatten someone up.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Jan 2013)

Okay okay I got some.

What's funnier than a dead fat person?
A dead fat person in a clown costume! 



What's the difference between a fat woman and a trampoline?
When you jump on a trampoline, you take your boots off.


LOL right?


----------



## ballz (26 Jan 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's still quite sad that Spence managed to paint herself as a martyr with the IDM movement with her smoke and mirrors hunger strike.



I'm happy to say that I don't think this is the case. She has certainly tricked some very naive people, but for the most part I think Canadians saw right through this by the end (even if they didn't at the beginning), and the INM leaders are probably sitting there thinking she is to blame for the death of the INM movement, which was headed off of the cliff anyway, but she probably helped push it off the edge before it could put a fight and actually cause a scene.

Mind you, I'm still a bit worried that in 30 years they will put her on a stamp or a coin or something. But not nearly as much as I was.


----------



## 57Chevy (26 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> in 30 years they will put her on a stamp or a coin or something.



Maybe a Totem pole with 6 other heads for 6 weeks of liquid shame.  ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jan 2013)

...and to try and get this back on some sort of decent footing.  What can happen with good leadership.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/01/24/quebec-reserve-an-education-success-story


----------



## Remius (27 Jan 2013)

This is a good opinion piece about how feel good lefty environmentalists are pushing their agenda at the expense of FN peoples.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/idle-no-more-left_b_2546243.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-politics


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Jan 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> This is a good opinion piece about how feel good lefty environmentalists are pushing their agenda at the expense of FN peoples.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/idle-no-more-left_b_2546243.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-politics



I'm surprised something intelligent actually came out of the Huffington Post, but then I saw a "hot topic" title stating it was Harper's fault Chief Spence stole all of her band's money....  :facepalm:


----------



## ModlrMike (27 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I'm surprised something intelligent actually came out of the Huffington Post, but then I saw a "hot topic" title stating it was Harper's fault Chief Spence stole all of her band's money....  :facepalm:



Written by none other than Carolyn Bennet of the $2Bn boondoggle fame. Can you spell irony?


----------



## Rifleman62 (27 Jan 2013)

I have heard news reports that some of the missing funds were used to purchase real estate. The real estate was not purchased on the reserve of course, so where, who, and how much? Believe it was comments from Ezra Levant, who seems to be the only one investigating.

The media party should do it's job and go after the Spence mess with half the vigor the go after the PM. How hard would it had been to follow the Spence vehicle every day, get a room on the same floor of the hotel and observe?

Speaking of education, how much and what training does Spence have to run a multi million dollar operation? What are the government's standards when they turn over millions of taxpayers dollars to people who do not have the education, training, or experience to do the job? Not every Band, but probably hundreds.

Racist questions, I know.


----------



## a_majoor (29 Jan 2013)

The NDP goes into pandering mode. As the article suggests, passing this bill would come back to bite any government quickly and badly, so this is not a particularly well thought out piece of legislation. If this really describes the mindset of the NDP, then they are still not ready for prime time:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/28/john-ivison-ndp-first-nations-bill-shows-the-partys-struggle-to-appear-credible/



> *John Ivison: NDP First Nations bill shows the party’s struggle to appear credible*
> 
> John Ivison | Jan 28, 2013 8:26 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 28, 2013 8:37 PM ET
> More from John Ivison
> ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (29 Jan 2013)

>Mind you, I'm still a bit worried that in 30 years they will put her on a stamp or a coin or something.

Fear naught; no-one will carry anything that large in a wallet.


----------



## ballz (29 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Speaking of education, how much and what training does Spence have to run a multi million dollar operation? What are the government's standards when they turn over millions of taxpayers dollars to people who do not have the education, training, or experience to do the job? Not every Band, but probably hundreds.



To be fair, we don't have these kind of standards for a lot of politicians and if we did, most would never be eligible for senior leadership. The nice thing about democracy is for better or worse, the people elect the kind of leader they deserve.

When it's a very corrupted democracy, however, like the democracies a lot of the First Nations have in place, the same cannot be said.


----------



## The_Falcon (29 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> To be fair, we don't have these kind of standards for a lot of politicians and if we did, most would never be eligible for senior leadership. The nice thing about democracy is for better or worse, the people elect the kind of leader they deserve.
> 
> When it's a very corrupted democracy, however, like the democracies a lot of the First Nations have in place, the same cannot be said.



Practically every other level of government does have a bureaucracy in place which takes care of the actual day to day running of said government.  The people working there tend to have a some sort of education to do their jobs.  The problem is their is no competent bureaucracy in place in places like Attiwapiskat, as the locals are the bureaucracy/elected officials.  I think that was what Rifleman is getting at.


----------



## ballz (29 Jan 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Practically every other level of government does have a bureaucracy in place which takes care of the actual day to day running of said government.  The people working there tend to have a some sort of education to do their jobs.  The problem is their is no competent bureaucracy in place in places like Attiwapiskat, as the locals are the bureaucracy/elected officials.  I think that was what Rifleman is getting at.



Rog. He said Spence specifically, so I was thinking of an elected official. Of course, there is no way that Attawapiskat or any reserve as isolated could possibly have people with the levels of education and experience to qualify them to handle millions of dollars (those ambitious people would have left the reserve to get that, and they ain't coming back). The best that could be done is for Aboriginal Affairs to work pretty damn closely with them and provide lots of training and guidance, to assure they know how to do their books properly (this is not as hard as it sounds...), keep them maintained to a high standard, and not accept them until they're good to go. But, that is the kind of thing most would outright refuse...

Consider this. Most people in the CF that hit a certain level of leadership deal with a lot of money, most of them without any or much formal accounting or financial management training. But if they were ever unable to account for certain expenditures of Public Funds (or for that matter Non-Public Funds), what would happen to them? Serious consequences of course, charges, a release, and having our face all over the news, are all pretty good guesses I think. If it happened in a private sector job, fired, charged, and perhaps sued. 

This is all pretty good incentive for us to make sure we don't lose any receipts, especially big ones, despite the fact that not all of us are accountants, financial managers, or really have much actual training for this kind of work, we learn as we progress to get the administration side of the job down.

What are the consequence for the Attawapiskat mayor and council? And therefore, what is their incentive to give a f**k? Perhaps if some existed, they might call for help (from Aboriginal Affairs) in doing these sort of things more diligently, just like the rest of us do when we come across a job that we're just out to lunch on.



			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> competent bureaucracy



Oxymoron of the day ;D


----------



## a_majoor (29 Jan 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> Rog. He said Spence specifically, so I was thinking of an elected official. Of course, there is no way that Attawapiskat or any reserve as isolated could possibly have people with the levels of education and experience to qualify them to handle millions of dollars (those ambitious people would have left the reserve to get that, and they ain't coming back). The best that could be done is for Aboriginal Affairs to work pretty damn closely with them and provide lots of training and guidance, to assure they know how to do their books properly (this is not as hard as it sounds...), keep them maintained to a high standard, and not accept them until they're good to go.



The solution was called a third party manager, but I think we all remember what happened there.



> But, that is the kind of thing most would outright refuse...


----------



## Rifleman62 (30 Jan 2013)

> What are the consequence for the Attawapiskat mayor and council?



The taxpayer, if informed, should be outraged at what is going on. 

Not all Reserves, but there are stories of new fire engines rusting on Reserves because of no volunteers to get the training to operate and maintain. Everyone is otherwise occupied. 

AANDC hands over millions with not a hope of responsible management and accountability. What is wrong with this decade wrong practice? It is probably because the government is afraid of being  labeled racists by all the usual suspects.

Meanwhile, the Media party is after the PM, the evil spending spiteful Harper, for personally spending a million bucks to protect his own *** during a visit to India. The colossal gall of the bugger. That million could have been advantageously spent on (fill in whatever) to better advantage. Now if Bobby Rae was PM, this security requirement would never have been necessary.

Additionally, the CBC continues to hold their torch high for the Indians, with "The Current" going on about *all* the Indian hospitals, where *everyone*, like the residential schools, was subject to racists acts, mistreated, and on and on.

Fricken useless media. Cut all funding to the CBC.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Now if Bobby Rae was PM, this security requirement would never have been necessary.



If Mr Rae was PM, he'd need that full on security here at home, as we'd likely be in the throes of a full on apocalyptic event of biblical proportions before he ever gained that seat.


----------



## my72jeep (30 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If Mr Rae was PM, he'd need that full on security here at home, as we'd likely be in the throes of a full on apocalyptic event of biblical proportions before he ever gained that seat.


A few years back when they opened the new interpretation Center in Algonquin park, Bobby was then in the waning days of his Fiefdom, but at the height of the RAE DAYS. He had 4 plain clothed OPP, 6 -10 uniformed OPP, an OPP chopper, and I saw 2 guys in OPP green in the trees, one with a ruger and the other had a scoped bolt action. All so he could open cut the ribbon in the middle of nowhere.


Wonder if the OPP were on Payed days?


----------



## ballz (30 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> The taxpayer, if informed, should be outraged at what is going on.



That's not a consequence, Spence and company don't care about the taxpayers or what they think. If they were told "you don't get this year's 'x' grant without the receipts for what last year's was spent on," that would be a consequence. 

That's what I meant. That's exactly what happens to the Physical Fitness Maintenance Grant when we lose the receipt for the $1000 treadmill we purchased with it, it wouldn't get topped up the next year. It would probably get topped up by the NPF committee out of their own pocket since they would not want to deal with the possible fraud charges they'd be facing since that $1000 wouldn't reconcile with the figure shown on the bank account.

Those are real consequences, but for some reason that seems to not apply to Attawapiskat. Apply those consequences and anyone will learn how to maintain the books.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Not all Reserves, but there are stories of new fire engines rusting on Reserves because of no volunteers to get the training to operate and maintain. Everyone is otherwise occupied.
> 
> AANDC hands over millions with not a hope of responsible management and accountability. What is wrong with this decade wrong practice? It is probably because the government is afraid of being  labeled racists by all the usual suspects.
> 
> ...



I share your frustration.


----------



## Danjanou (30 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If Mr Rae was PM, he'd need that full on security here at home, as we'd likely be in the throes of a full on apocalyptic event of biblical proportions before he ever gained that seat.



Yes but we'd be blessed with his courageous calm professional and intelligent leadership during this Mayan Zombie revelation like Apocalypse. ;D


----------



## Pandora114 (30 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yes but we'd be blessed with his courageous calm professional and intelligent leadership during this Mayan Zombie revelation like Apocalypse. ;D



>.>  

Someone else here plays The Secret World? 0_0


----------



## Journeyman (30 Jan 2013)

Pandora114 said:
			
		

> Someone else here plays The Secret World? 0_0


Play it?   Danjanou owns land there.   

(He probably still has a _red_ Star Trek shirt too)   ;D


----------



## Pandora114 (30 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Play it?   Danjanou owns land there.
> 
> (He probably still has a _red_ Star Trek shirt too)   ;D



So awesome


----------



## Danjanou (4 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Play it?   Danjanou owns land there.
> 
> (He probably still has a _red_ Star Trek shirt too)   ;D



Yup JM put his spare shirt on eBay and I got the winning bid. Hey he needed the cash, that Magic the Gathering expansion pack was just too irresistable  8)


----------



## foresterab (18 Feb 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/story/2013/02/15/sby-attawapiskat-debeers-road-block-injunction.html

While not on the first page it does illustrate some of the ongoing issues over sharing of revenues...in this case non-government monies.

De Beers wants Attawapiskat blockade injunction
DeBeers officials were to be in court Friday in an effort to end a road block to the Victor mine near Attawapiskat
CBC News Posted: Feb 15, 2013 3:05 PM ET Last Updated: Feb 15, 2013 3:30 PM 



Attawapiskat unrest continues, despite De Beers investment
External Links
Canadian Business Ethics Research Network | First Nation Relationships with De Beers Canada
(Note:CBC does not endorse and is not responsible for the content of external links.)
The impact of the De Beers diamond mine on Attawapiskat8:48
DeBeers is taking legal action in an effort to end a road block to its diamond mine in northern Ontario.

The company has served blockaders with papers informing them of the legal action, said Tom Orsmby, director of external and corporate affairs with De Beers.

The company was to go to court Friday to request an injunction. Ormsby said the people involved in the blockade are named in the application.

A group of Attawapiskat residents have pulled down their blockade of the winter road leading to De Beers diamond mine. (idlenomore.tumblr.com)
The legal action follows a community meeting Thursday with the protestors and band council. Ormsby said De Beers informed everyone in attendance it would pursue legal options if the road block remained.

“To date, we have lost all or part of 10 days for our critical re-supply program for our Victor Mine,” Ormsby said in an e-mail to CBC News.

“A prolonged disruption to the program could jeopardize the health and safety of our employees and the future of the mine.”

The current blockade is the second demonstration in just over a week on the winter road between Attawapiskat and the mine.

"There are daily standby costs that we are now accumulating because the crews that are waiting to transport our freight and our fuel still have to be compensated and paid,” Ormsby said.

“We still have standby costs for those who are waiting to continue the maintenance of the road. Those are starting to pile up."

Attawapiskat signed an Impact Benefit Agreement with De Beers in 2005, but some band members have raised concerns the community isn't benefitting enough from the mining project.

The Victor mine will soon mark five years of production — roughly the halfway point in the projected lifespan of the mine.

No one at the band office in Attawapiskat was available for comment.


----------



## 57Chevy (18 Feb 2013)

foresterab said:
			
		

> “To date, we have lost all or part of 10 days for our critical re-supply program for our Victor Mine,” Ormsby said in an e-mail to CBC News.
> 
> “A prolonged disruption to the program could jeopardize the health and safety of our employees and the future of the mine.”



Solution= DeBeers investing some diamond money here  



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> It's time to rethink the blimp...
> ...
> there's room for certain kinds of them to play a new role in Canada, especially when it comes to reaching remote communities in the North, the transportation committee recommended in a recently released report.
> 
> ...



DeBeers Blimp  ;D


----------



## a_majoor (24 Feb 2013)

Some changes in government, but will changing the minister actually change the outcomes? I suspect the last line about regional deals rather than pan Canadian "deals" might actually make a lot more sense.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/22/john-ivison-bernard-valcourt-part-of-new-conservative-strategy-for-dealing-with-aboriginals/



> *John Ivison: Bernard Valcourt part of new Conservative strategy for dealing with aboriginals*
> 
> John Ivison | Feb 22, 2013 7:48 PM ET
> More from John Ivison
> ...


----------



## larry Strong (25 Feb 2013)

So her bluff was called in Ottawa, now according to a statement released, the International Indian Treaty Council along with Spence and the Mushkegowuk People of Attawapiskat First Nation have filed an 'Urgent Action' with the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).

*Chief Spence asks UN to interfere with Parliament*

http://blogs.canoe.ca/lilleyspad/general/chief-spence-asks-un-to-interfere-with-parliament/



> Think what you will of Parliament and the Harper government, the fact is, Canadians had a say in who represents them in that big building overlooking the Ottawa river.
> 
> At the UN, we have no say.
> 
> ...





Larry


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> So her bluff was called in Ottawa, now according to a statement released, the International Indian Treaty Council along with Spence and the Mushkegowuk People of Attawapiskat First Nation have filed an 'Urgent Action' with the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD).
> 
> [size=12pt]*Chief Spence asks UN to interfere with Parliament[/
> 
> ...


*

I smell desperation on the part of Cheif Spence, however given that the UN allows champions of human rights to chair some commitees I have no doubt where the UN will stand on this.

*


----------



## Remius (25 Feb 2013)

More attention seeking. 

Can't wait to hear from the UN on this.... :


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Feb 2013)

So an overfed, corrupt, buffoon, being denied lucre by Ottawa, goes to beg at "top table" where the real fat, really corrupt, murderously dangerous buffoons hold power: the United Nations.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So an overfed, corrupt, buffoon, being denied lucre by Ottawa, goes to beg at "top table" where the real fat, really corrupt, murderously dangerous buffoons hold power: the United Nations.



Well that about sums it up nicely. Dollars to donuts that the UN will side with an over fed corrupt buffoon.


----------



## dapaterson (25 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So *an overfed, corrupt, buffoon, being denied lucre by Ottawa*, goes to beg at "top table" where the real fat, really corrupt, murderously dangerous buffoons hold power: the United Nations.



Mike Duffy's going to the UN?


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Feb 2013)

:goodpost:  :rofl:


----------



## Remius (25 Feb 2013)

He hasn't been on a hunger strike yet.  You guys are skipping a few steps here.


----------



## my72jeep (25 Feb 2013)

Now now at least, Mike said he will repay the money.


----------



## larry Strong (25 Feb 2013)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Now now at least, Mike said he will repay the money.



Seeings how the peasants were storming the walls, screaming for his blood his options were somewhat limited.



Larry


----------



## dapaterson (25 Feb 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Seeings how the peasants were storming the walls, screaming for his blood his options were somewhat limited.
> 
> 
> 
> Larry



...especially since the driveway to the house in PEI hasn't been plowed all winter...


----------



## GAP (25 Feb 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ...especially since the driveway to the house in PEI hasn't been plowed all winter...



But the one to his apt in Charlottetown was..... :nod:


----------



## Scott (25 Feb 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Seeings how the peasants were storming the walls, screaming for his blood his options were somewhat limited.
> 
> 
> 
> Larry



Still makes him smarter than Spence.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Feb 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> But the one to his apt in Charlottetown was..... :nod:


Yet, as of last Christmas, he still didn't have a health card for the province he "lived" in....


----------



## dapaterson (25 Feb 2013)

"There's no whore like an old whore." - B. Mulroney


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Feb 2013)

Drifting further off the topic of First Nations but remaining seized with the issue of fat, idle buffoons (Theresa Spence, meet Mike Duffy) we should look at S.23 (5) of the Constitution which says that to be qualified to be a Senator a person "shall be resident in the Province for which he is appointed." (He includes she.) The whole thing is likely to turn on whether or not "resident in" means, "lives there" (nearly) full time or simply "has a residence in," such as Sen Duffy's cottage or Sen Wallin's occasional use of her family home.

It is likely that the Speaker will rule in favour of the second, less onerous, condition and that the courts, even the _Supremes_, will be loath to challenge a ruling of the Speaker of the Senate.


----------



## The_Falcon (26 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Drifting further off the topic of First Nations but remaining seized with the issue of fat, idle buffoons (Theresa Spence, meet Mike Duffy) we should look at S.23 (5) of the Constitution which says that to be qualified to be a Senator a person "shall be resident in the Province for which he is appointed." (He includes she.) The whole thing is likely to turn on whether or not "resident in" means, "lives there" (nearly) full time or simply "has a residence in," such as Sen Duffy's cottage or Sen Wallin's occasional use of her family home.
> 
> It is likely that the Speaker will rule in favour of the second, less onerous, condition and that the courts, even the _Supremes_, will be loath to challenge a ruling of the Speaker of the Senate.



Hasn't this issue come up before, regarding a senator who basically lived in Mexico and showed up like twice a year?


----------



## dapaterson (26 Feb 2013)

Ideally we would see a single standard for residency for all members of Parliament, whether senators or members of the house of commons.

In my imperfect world, Senators and MPs would be resident in and pay taxes to the provice they represent.  It helps align their interests with those that they notionally represent.  And any elective relocation by the Senator would not result in any increase of entitlements - we'll call that "The Harb Clause".

...my imperfect world would also see MPs prosecuted to the full extent of the law for forgery, right, Mr Fox?


----------



## Edward Campbell (3 Apr 2013)

This is a bit of a topical stretch, but I always associate noted lawyer Tony Merchant with First Nations issues and now he and his wife, Senator Pana Merchant (Liberals, Saskatchewan) are, or appear to be, caught up in a potential tax evasion scandal according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _iPolitics_:

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2013/04/03/liberal-senator-husband-face-possible-tax-investigation/


> Liberal senator, husband face possible tax investigation
> 
> By Elizabeth Thompson
> 
> ...




An awful lot of money passed through Tony Merchant's hands in, especially, the residential schools lawsuits. And both he and his wife are widely and deeply connected to the Liberal Party of Canada.


----------



## Old Sweat (2 May 2013)

Here is a fairly depressing analysis of the prospects for unrest among our First Nations by John Ivison of the National Post. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

John Ivison: Grim report warns Canada vulnerable to an aboriginal insurrection

Mankind is at a crossroads, Woody Allen once quipped: “One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”

Canada’s relations with its aboriginal people are also at a crossroads but, fortunately, one of the potential paths forward promises a more auspicious outcome than Mr. Allen’s doomsday scenario.

The Macdonald-Laurier Institute think-tank laid out the options in two important essays released Wednesday. One paper, by Ken Coates and Brian Lee Crowley, outlines an optimistic vision where aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians find ways to collaborate on natural resource development, to the benefit of all.

A more pessimistic report, by Douglas Bland, suggests that Canada has all the necessary “feasibility” conditions for a violent native uprising — social fault lines; a large “warrior cohort”; an economy vulnerable to sabotage; a reluctance on the part of governments and security forces to confront aboriginal protests; and a sparsely populated country reliant on poorly defended key infrastructure like rail and electricity lines.

Mr. Coates and Mr. Lee Crowley suggested that aboriginal people are in a “sweet spot” when it comes to natural resource development — the result of treaty agreements, court settlements and Supreme Court decisions.

Mr. Coates said many First Nations have made it clear they want to work within the structure of Canada by taking their grievances to court, a process that culminated with a landmark Supreme Court decision in 2004 that said companies who want to develop resources on traditional native land have a “duty to consult and accommodate.” This gives aboriginal people substantial influence over resource decisions, if not a legal veto, and has led to the emergence of well-funded community development corporations, impact-benefit agreements, indigenous collaboration and resource revenue sharing. (British Columbia has led the way with a new mineral tax.)

The authors point out these kinds of deals are not a panacea — the troubled Attawapiskat reserve has a royalty-sharing agreement with De Beers over its Victor diamond mine, yet has recently seen a state of emergency declared again.

But their conclusion is that even such movements as Idle No More —“overwhelmingly peaceful and culturally rich” — suggest accommodation is possible, if native Canadians receive a “fair” share of the country’s wealth.

That’s the good news. There’s precious little sunshine in Douglas Bland’s paper, Co-operation or Conflict?

He took the accepted “feasibility” hypothesis, developed by researchers at Oxford University, as the basis for predicting civil unrest and applied it to Canada. The findings are scary enough to make you stock up on canned food and start digging your bunker.

The Oxford research suggests that “feasibility,” rather than root causes, is the foundation for challenging civil authority. In Canada, it seems, unrest is very feasibile. “Social fractionalization” along native and non-native fault lines is obvious. There is a growing warrior cohort — by 2017, 42% of First Nations population on the Prairies will be under 30 — many disadvantaged, poorly educated, unemployed and angry. The economy is dependent on moving resources over long, hard-to-defend transportation routes. Finally, the security forces are limited by capacity and the will of their leaders to confront aboriginal protesters who break the law.

While the Oxford hypothesis suggests feasibility is the determinant and predictor of insurgency, it does not dismiss that grievances do provide motive. And Mr. Bland’s paper reels off some particularly damning statistics: a homicide rate of 8.8/100,000 compared with 1.3/100,000 in the non-aboriginal population; a stratospheric incarceration rate that means 80% of prisoners in Alberta are aboriginal (out of 11% of the population); a high school graduation rate of 24% of 15 to 24-year-olds, compared with 84% in the non-native population; a 40% youth unemployment rate and on and on.

Mr. Bland argues that, in some respects, an uprising has and is occurring, “as a quick head count of the Warrior Cohort inside our penal colonies will demonstrate.”

In the event of an insurgency, the Canadian economy could be shut down in weeks. The 2012 CP Rail strike cost an estimated $540-million a week, as it hit industries including coal, grain, potash, nickel, lumber and autos. Some First Nations leaders like Terry Nelson in Manitoba have already concluded that a covert operation involving burning cars on every railway line would be impossible to stop.

Mr. Bland cites Manitoba, with its vulnerable transportation hub, as a province with a large native population and a relatively small police presence that would be unable to guarantee security in the event of even a modest protest. “The reality is that the security of Manitoba now and in the future is whatever the First Nations allow it to be,” he quotes one security specialist as saying. “[And] as the security guarantee drifts lower, the feasibility of confrontation climbs higher.”

It makes for grim reading, but Mr. Bland suggests there are ways to diminish the feasibility factor and create conditions for the happier outcome put forward by Messrs. Coates and Lee Crowley.

He suggested resource revenue-sharing; a Marshall Plan style reconstruction package that acknowledges some sort of native sovereignty; programs aimed at dealing with aboriginal incarceration; comprehensive resettlement of remote communities; and a well-funded First Nations leadership institution as ways to address some of the frustrations felt by natives on reserves.

But the logic of the feasibility hypothesis means the most effective way to prevent an insurrection is to make one less feasible. Hence, he concludes Ottawa must reinforce the security guarantee in and near First Nations by safeguarding critical transportation infrastructure, beefing up policing on reserves and cracking down on illegal drugs.

In his conclusion, Mr. Lee Crowley said that, on balance, there are strong reasons for optimism. “The feeling that this is an intractable problem where progress can never be made is not true,” he said.

But, having read both papers, I tend to side with Mr. Allen’s (and perhaps Mr. Bland’s) more gloomy world view.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (2 May 2013)

I have to be careful sharing opinions on this subject due to my current position, so I'll put my statements with the normal caveat that it is only my opinion (however I am not alone in what I think.)

The issue with First Nations communities goes way beyond resource development and sharing.  There is a systematic flaw in the overall concept of the reserve system within Canada that has helped to create a welfare state within Canada and it's truly coming to head.  Some Chiefs and Councils do have a vested interest in seeing their communities grow and change for the better, and have a real heart for the youth to see them succeed.  Unfortunately this focus is not shared across the board and instead the hand is constantly out or the finger is being pointed everywhere they can to blame the government and everyone else for any and all predicaments they are currently in.  There is little to no accountability for the success or failure of their communities right from the top down, and the sense that as First Nations people the government owes them everything.  There are many individuals that seek to better themselves and realise that their future within their community is potentially limited for jobs, education etc so they move out and try to fit within society to in fact contribute in a meaningful way.  Don't get me wrong I fully support maintaining traditions and culture and a sense of pride in where you came from, but when living in a fly in only community that has an unemployment rate of 85%+ and you expect the band and the government to support you in every way imaginable, things need to change.  I firmly believe that no matter your background if you are a Canadian citizen you are entitled to certain rights that every other Canadian is as well, but to set a certain class above one another and then financially support them above and beyond every other municipal government throughout Canada without financial accountability or a proper economic plan in place, then how are any of us surprised when situations such as the Attawapiskat housing crises or the "ring of fire" ongoing issues exist.

I don't even know where to start, but when the above article talks about a population of youth is disenfranchised with their future, how is anyone sitting back with a look of shock on their face when there isn't much of a future to be had in some of these communities.  High unemployment, a lack-luster education system and little to no sense of drive for accomplishment within the community at large due to the government providing for every facet of life, it's no wonder things are coming to a head.

I truly believe that if the Canadian public personally visited these communities and truly saw how bands are operated and how disfunctional many of these communities were, there would be hell to pay.  It's one thing to talk about what happens or read about it from the slant of whatever news agency is providing you the information, it's another thing entirely to be there in person when you walk into a community and see how First Nations people live.  I have seen the success stories and I have seen the failures, and quite often the key ingredient that either exists or is missing is a willingness to accept responsibility for your own personal actions and then move forward with a drive to better yourself and those around you in your day to day actions.


----------



## GAP (2 May 2013)

:goodpost:


----------



## The_Falcon (2 May 2013)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> I truly believe that if the Canadian public personally visited these communities and truly saw how bands are operated and how disfunctional many of these communities were, there would be hell to pay.



Unfortunately wishful thinking.  Even after mayor spence had her little show, there were plenty of people who were and still are willfuly blind to the corruption and ineptitude that is rife across bands around the country, and in alot of  cases pretty much self inflicted.   The feds need to have the RCMP investigate the fraud and corruption in these communities and start charging them, and they need to start doing a better job of conducting psyops/info ops whatever you want to call it, in these remote and hermit like reserves.   Sure the lib/left/agitator brigade is going to whine and complain, but the current practice of throwing more money at the problem and  ignoring blatant corruption sure hasn't worked.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (2 May 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Unfortunately wishful thinking.  Even after mayor spence had her little show, there were plenty of people who were and still are willfuly blind to the corruption and ineptitude that is rife across bands around the country, and in alot of  cases pretty much self inflicted.   The feds need to have the RCMP investigate the fraud and corruption in these communities and start charging them, and they need to start doing a better job of conduction psyops/info ops whatever you want to call it, in these remote and hermit like reserves.   Sure the lib/left/agitator brigade is going to whine and complain, but the current practice of throwing more money at the problem and  ignoring blatant corruption sure hasn't worked.


I disagree with it being wishful thinking.  Sure there are always going to be those with the blinders on to reality, but for the most part of general joe-blow Canuck personally saw how things were by phsically standing in some First Nations communities, eyes would be open.

I agree with the investigations, but until there is the political will to move forward with the hard changes that are needed, we're going to be left with the same dysfunctional system we have in place.


----------



## Edward Campbell (26 Sep 2013)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, is a *real* _idle no more_ story, and a good news story at that:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/25/matt-gurney-how-a-first-nations-band-is-fixing-its-big-welfare-problem-with-a-small-solution/


> How a First Nations band is fixing its big welfare problem with a small solution
> 
> Matt Gurney
> 
> ...




Isn't it amazing what a little leadership can do?

Hello, Chief Spence up there in Attawapiskat, can you read? Can you talk with a fellow chief? Can you manage to follow a good example? Or is cheap publicity and welfare all there is to your _vision_ for your First Nation?


----------



## Remius (26 Sep 2013)

Amazing that something as simple as "minor logistics" like a shuttle bus and work boots can solve a community's problems.  

Many communities like this have addressed some "root causes" if you'll forgive the use of the term.  

I witnessed this in a Northern (ie arctic) community where they increased their high school completion rates by simply having an open door welcome back policy.  Kids at 15, 16 and 17 woudl drop out to either hunt or provide for their families.  many wanted to go back to school years later at 22-23-24 years of age but couldn't get back into the school system (age).   But letting them back into the high school proper gave them that chance.  The school system adapted to a way of life and they can boast one of the highest HS completion rate in the northern regions.

Sometimes simple and obvious works.


----------



## Lightguns (26 Sep 2013)

A long time ago in the 90s, CFB Shilo used to bus FN men and women in and supply all work clothing and equipment.  It seemed to work pretty well for a 15 folks, I wonder if they still do it.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (15 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, is a *real* _idle no more_ story, and a good news story at that:
> 
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/25/matt-gurney-how-a-first-nations-band-is-fixing-its-big-welfare-problem-with-a-small-solution/
> 
> ...


Attawapiskat is in an even better position having the De Beers mine so close.  Many in the community already work there in fact, but if you read in the news picketing has been going on recently against the mine because the band wants more money.  It's a gong show to say the least.


----------



## Haletown (15 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, is a *real* _idle no more_ story, and a good news story at that:
> 
> http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/25/matt-gurney-how-a-first-nations-band-is-fixing-its-big-welfare-problem-with-a-small-solution/
> 
> ...



She was probably too busy driving around in her Escalade, checking out the very expensive Zamboni ice resurfacing machine at the community rinkthat they bought instead of doing basic housing repairs, planning her next  publicity diet stunt (don't forget to make reservations at the local five star hotel so you can get a good night's sleep - TeePees are so uncomfortable) or hanging out with her big plasma TV and satellite service to worry about the little people of her Band.

I was recently in Kelowna and witnessed the entrepreneurial expertise of the  Westbank band.  Very impressive. The Feds should just hire them to run Aboriginal  Affairs on a contract basis.  Chief Spence wouldn't last five minutes under Westbank leadership.  The first time she whined on about something and tried to blame anyone/everyone else for her band's problems they would boot her butt down the road  and replace her with someone who gets things done.

And they would sell her Escalade and force her to get some much needed exercise by walking.


----------



## Lightguns (15 Oct 2013)

Gong show is here in NB too.  They (mix group of Natives and rarely employed Acadians) are blocking the highway into Rexton, NB.  Everyone has to go through Richibuto (Sic) an Acadian town to get to Rexton on the back road.  They want all seismic testing to stop, they want no shale gas production AND here is the funny one, the local War Chief was on the radio claiming that sound waves from seismic testing make trees and pregnant moose sick.  

Anyway, the Premier, two days after saying he would not meet with lawbreakers, met with lawbreakers.  The outcome: a working group to study the issue while the blockade continues.  There should be a penalty in the transfer payments that says if you do not develop it, the Feds deduct dollar for dollar from the transfer payment.  Most people up there seem to believe that they should be given EI forever to do nothing.

The blockade was partially lifted when a drunk fell into one of the fires they lit in the middle of the asphalt and the ambulance could not get to him quickly!  Of course the highways folks collected over time on a weekend to remove the blockade.  The natives told the RCMP how they wanted the blockade to be restructured and the RCMP came along set up traffic cones just as they wanted them.  They are acting like the "Knights who neat" (Monty Python and the Holy Grail); "A shrubbery and perhaps a little picket fence and nice stone way, NEAT".  Imagine, RCMP, "purveyors to fine protests everywhere".

The big concern I find is the amount on non-native support they get, it seems every EI'er in the province wants to fight a great revolution to remove the nasty Tories.  It seems that it is OK to shut down a town to get your way, as long as it is someone elses town.


----------



## Lightguns (15 Oct 2013)

According to the UN we are not living up to our obligations and continuing to oppress these folks. Perhaps the UN will be supplying a peace keeping force from Europe.


----------



## a_majoor (15 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> According to the UN we are not living up to our obligations and continuing to oppress these folks. Perhaps the UN will be supplying a peace keeping force from Europe.



Just saw this on CTV. Money quote (paraphrease) was that Canadians have health and life expectancies of a developed nation, while natives have the outcomes of less developed nations.

Well, perhaps if they dropped the fiction of being separate "nations" and adopted the culture and values that make Canada a "developed nation" they might get the same outcomes as a "developed nation". Too much to hope for, I guess.


----------



## Haletown (15 Oct 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Just saw this on CTV. Money quote (paraphrease) was that Canadians have health and life expectancies of a developed nation, while natives have the outcomes of less developed nations.
> 
> Well, perhaps if they dropped the fiction of being separate "nations" and adopted the culture and values that make Canada a "developed nation" they might get the same outcomes as a "developed nation". Too much to hope for, I guess.



So whatever money we send to fund the UN  should be diverted to pay for our aboriginal policy sins.

The UN will understand.  People are the priority after all.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Oct 2013)

>while natives have the outcomes of less developed nations.

White men are stupid, you see.  When the resource of a resource-based town taps out, the people move out.


----------



## CougarKing (19 Oct 2013)

When a group gets so dependent on the status quo that they don't even want something better...

National Post



> *N.B. First Nation’s violent protesters fight jobs to preserve band's 85% welfare status quo*
> 
> Christie Blatchford: First Nation band behind anti-fracking protest fights for 85% welfare status quo
> 
> ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (19 Oct 2013)

Haletown said:
			
		

> She was probably too busy driving around in her Escalade, checking out the very expensive Zamboni ice resurfacing machine at the community rinkthat they bought instead of doing basic housing repairs, planning her next  publicity diet stunt (don't forget to make reservations at the local five star hotel so you can get a good night's sleep - TeePees are so uncomfortable) or hanging out with her big plasma TV and satellite service to worry about the little people of her Band.
> 
> I was recently in Kelowna and witnessed the entrepreneurial expertise of the  Westbank band.  Very impressive. The Feds should just hire them to run Aboriginal  Affairs on a contract basis.  Chief Spence wouldn't last five minutes under Westbank leadership.  The first time she whined on about something and tried to blame anyone/everyone else for her band's problems they would boot her butt down the road  and replace her with someone who gets things done.
> 
> And they would sell her Escalade and force her to get some much needed exercise by walking.



There are some good bands with strong and dynamic leadership all over the country.  Pabineau First Nation, near my hometown of Bathurst, NB is one such community.  They own a number of commercial fishing boats which provide employment and income to the community.  They also fish within season, follow all rules and regulations and maintain very good relationships with other fisherman in the area.  They also own their own fish market and store where they sell their catch.  They, along with many other First Nations are good people but their hard work is over-shadowed by the "1%er's" who would rather live by a code of "corruption, extortion, bribery and mis-information".


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Oct 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> They, along with many other First Nations are good people but their hard work is over-shadowed by the "1%er's" who would rather live by a code of "corruption, extortion, bribery and mis-information".



Whom the press give 99% of their attention too.........


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Whom the press give 99% of their attention too.........




In fairness to the media, people going about their lawful business, in a lawful manner, doing an honest day's work for an honest wage is hardly "news," is it?


----------



## cupper (19 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In fairness to the media, people going about their lawful business, in a lawful manner, doing an honest day's work for an honest wage is hardly "news," is it?



It would be a pleasant change though. ;D


----------



## a_majoor (19 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In fairness to the media, people going about their lawful business, in a lawful manner, doing an honest day's work for an honest wage is hardly "news," is it?



But it's getting to the point that it soon will be "news" </rant>


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In fairness to the media, people going about their lawful business, in a lawful manner, doing an honest day's work for an honest wage is hardly "news," is it?



I don't know,.....I enjoyed reading 'Royal Drew's" account of a First nations success story more than reading about this latest protest.

Maybe it's because way too many people want and crave the lowest common denominator as their "news"?


----------



## George Wallace (19 Oct 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I don't know,.....I enjoyed reading 'Royal Drew's" account of a First nations success story more than reading about this latest protest.
> 
> Maybe it's because way too many people want and crave the lowest common denominator as their "news"?



I agree with Bruce.  Those "Success Stories" should be more broadly broadcast and perhaps they will help to kick start others to follow suit.


----------



## ModlrMike (19 Oct 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> They, along with many other First Nations are good people but their hard work is over-shadowed by the "1%er's" who would rather live by a code of "corruption, extortion, bribery and mis-information".



You forgot nepotism and clanism...


----------



## CougarKing (26 Oct 2013)

Attawapiskat in the news again...

CBC News



> *Winnipeg’s Muslim community donates meat to Attawapiskat*
> 
> *Over 1,800 kilograms of meat will soon be on its way to an impoverished Ontario reserve, after Winnipeg’s Muslim community donated a massive amount of food and boxes of supplies to Attawapiskat First Nation as part of their annual Eid-al-Adha celebration.*
> 
> ...


----------



## GAP (26 Oct 2013)

It would be interesting to see how and to whom it is finally distributed to..... :


----------



## George Wallace (26 Oct 2013)

I didn't think that there were starving anorexic inhabitants up there.


----------



## Robert0288 (26 Oct 2013)

I also remember some public figurehead of theirs who was rather large despite not 'eating' for a month+


----------



## larry Strong (26 Oct 2013)

Have they given up hunting?




Larry


----------



## George Wallace (26 Oct 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Have they given up hunting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not for handouts.   >


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not for handouts.   >



Hunting?  The last time they hunted it cost the tax payer 20,000 for a long weekend of goose hunting.


----------



## my72jeep (27 Oct 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I also remember some public figurehead of theirs who was rather large despite not 'eating' for a month+



Plus 1


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2013)

The Green in Fredericton is now occupied. They have constructed a traditional long house with traditional blue poly tarp. The whole place is already a pit of thrown away fast food wraps and the odd empty booze bottle. All this protected by the FPD. They are holding shale gas environmental review and want white folks to come and express their opinion. Can you imagine walking in there and agreeing with the gas company. 

Just waiting now for the moose soup sucking tub a lard to lead them to the promise land. An ADT sale guy I know facebooked that he has been busy all weekend uping customer coverage in the mansions around the Green.


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2013)

A friend drove the war memorial has a warrior flag hung off it. There will be no service there this year.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Oct 2013)

They really are starting to wear out their welcome and try people's patience.  Bad things may start to happen.   It can't go on forever.  People will finally have had enough and react in less than a positive manner.


----------



## pbi (4 Nov 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-s-nisga-a-becomes-only-first-nation-to-privatize-land-1.2355794

To me, this measure is actually a positive one. I say give them all the same degree of individual ownership and responsibility that they have when they choose to move off-reserve (as most have done, anyway...). A sense of ownership and the ability to profit (and the accompnying risk of loss) from the individual posession of land would, IMHO, go far to address some of the hapless dependency and despondency of so many FN bands.

 I realize that the treaty system in BC is different than in the rest of Canada, but the principle should still apply.

 I disregard the fear of "assimilation": simply because you adapt to a changing world does not mean you abandon your culture. Failure to adapt is the mark of a dying culture.


----------



## jollyjacktar (5 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-s-nisga-a-becomes-only-first-nation-to-privatize-land-1.2355794
> 
> To me, this measure is actually a positive one. I say give them all the same degree of individual ownership and responsibility that they have when they choose to move off-reserve (as most have done, anyway...). A sense of ownership and the ability to profit (and the accompnying risk of loss) from the individual posession of land would, IMHO, go far to address some of the hapless dependency and despondency of so many FN bands.
> 
> ...



I agree.  Then those that do can pay property taxes and a mortgage like the rest of us too.


----------



## Bluebulldog (25 Mar 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-s-nisga-a-becomes-only-first-nation-to-privatize-land-1.2355794
> 
> To me, this measure is actually a positive one. I say give them all the same degree of individual ownership and responsibility that they have when they choose to move off-reserve (as most have done, anyway...). A sense of ownership and the ability to profit (and the accompnying risk of loss) from the individual posession of land would, IMHO, go far to address some of the hapless dependency and despondency of so many FN bands.
> 
> ...



Until First Nations, band councils, and reserves are placed under a set of rules and regs like the Municipal Act ( let's be honest here, most reserves are in fact Municipalities), giving "ownership" will not account to much, unless they are held to account for its management.


----------



## Lightguns (25 Mar 2014)

Completely meaningless.  You buy a piece of land and some faction of the band does not like what you do with it or does not get the necessary graff, they will occupy it and you will never see, feel, touch or smell anything you own on that land ever again.  There is no rule of law beyond the rule of the most popular loud-mouth and there is no police force in Canada that will help you.


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Mar 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Completely meaningless.  You buy a piece of land and some faction of the band does not like what you do with it or does not get the necessary graff, they will occupy it and you will never see, feel, touch or smell anything you own on that land ever again.  There is no rule of law beyond the rule of the most popular loud-mouth and there is no police force in Canada that will help you.



I don't think there's going to be a line up of non-aboriginal people buying up all the land, but what its going to allow is some autonomy of the people living on the reserve. They'll be able to own land, build equity, and cut the dependance on social programs and the tribal council for handouts.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2014)

You can't help people that don't want help or won't help themselves.

However, don't equate 'don't want help' with 'don't send me more money'.


----------



## Bluebulldog (25 Mar 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I don't think there's going to be a line up of non-aboriginal people buying up all the land, but what its going to allow is some autonomy of the people living on the reserve. They'll be able to own land, build equity, and cut the dependance on social programs and the tribal council for handouts.



Sadly, it won't.

No one is going to guarantee a mortgage on Native land without checks and balances in place. I doubt CMHC would touch it with a 10' pole, unless they were compelled under an act of parliament to do so. 

Let's just look at the reserves as a total different geography, shall we? Akin to a Banana Republic, where the governance and accountability ebbs and flows with the whim of those in control. Are you, as a lender, going to issue a loan or mortgage on any land within that boundary? 

The last time I checked, the people living on the reserve have tons of autonomy.....If you genuinely believe that they will not continue to rely on social programs, and hand outs, just because the title of the land can be registered......well, I'll just say you're an extreme optimist, and leave it at that.


----------



## brihard (25 Mar 2014)

The whole concept of 'reserves' is part of the problem. We have two tiers of Canadian citizenship- those registered under the Indian Act, and everyone else. To me its unconscionable.

Scrap the indian act and the reserve system. Will there be an uproar? Absolutely. Will there be a big vacuum needing filling? Yup. But at least whatever gets built in its place to deal with out first nations will be predicated first and foremost on them being treated as equal citizens and being provided with equal services. It's easy to talk about how first nations need to build capacity and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Much harder when funding for things like education falls short of what other students receive through the provinces.


----------



## GAP (25 Mar 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Sadly, it won't.
> 
> No one is going to guarantee a mortgage on Native land without checks and balances in place. I doubt CMHC would touch it with a 10' pole, unless they were compelled under an act of parliament to do so.



CMHC backs reservation housing so long as it is built to standards...


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Mar 2014)

GAP said:
			
		

> CMHC backs reservation housing so long as it is built to standards...



How long it remains at that standard is questionable.


----------



## Bluebulldog (26 Mar 2014)

GAP said:
			
		

> CMHC backs reservation housing so long as it is built to standards...



I stand corrected.

However if you read the language, the only way CMHC will issue loan on reserve lands is if it is in fact guaranteed by the First Nation, and backed by a fund set up for just that purpose.

Seems to me by reading the language set out, that they are not actually guaranteeing any property financing if it's on reserve lands, they're simply acting as a facilitator in the financing of same, as long as someone else is on the hook. 

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/hoficlincl/moloin/rean/upload/LoanInsuranceOn-Reserve.pdf

I also find it amusing that the first part of the CMHC site referring to First nations is all about home maintenance, and mould remediation.....


----------



## GAP (26 Mar 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> I also find it amusing that the first part of the CMHC site referring to First nations is all about home maintenance, and mould remediation.....



Oh, it's, mould remediation, is well taken care of....if it's mouldy, they just burn the house down...mould remediated.....


----------



## Bluebulldog (26 Mar 2014)

GAP said:
			
		

> Oh, it's, mould remediation, is well taken care of....if it's mouldy, they just burn the house down...mould remediated.....



Not quite what the book says...but then again...I guess they have more experience at it....


----------



## The_Falcon (8 Apr 2014)

Someone check the temperature in hell it may have dropped several degrees.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2014/04/20140408-100239.html



> Clayton Kennedy, the former co-manager of northern Ontario's Attawapiskat First Nation, has been charged with theft and fraud.
> 
> Kennedy, 62, was co-manager of the band's finances between July 2010 and the end of the summer of 2012.
> 
> ...


----------



## Journeyman (8 Apr 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Kennedy is the partner of Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence.


     :


----------



## Canadian.Trucker (8 Apr 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Someone check the temperature in hell it may have dropped several degrees.
> 
> http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2014/04/20140408-100239.html


No one should be shocked by this article at all.


----------



## The_Falcon (8 Apr 2014)

More from the National Post

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/08/clayton-kennedy-former-attawapiskat-co-manager-and-partner-of-chief-theresa-spence-charged-with-fraud/



> Clayton Kennedy, former Attawapiskat co-manager and partner of Chief Theresa Spence, charged with fraud
> Republish ReprintRepublish OnlineRepublish OfflineReprintJosh Visser | April 8, 2014 | Last Updated: Apr 8 11:47 AM ET
> More from Josh Visser | @joshvisser
> 
> ...


----------



## Rifleman62 (8 Apr 2014)

> Kennedy is the partner of Attawapiskat Chief Theresa Spence.



Possibly he is the former partner and that's why he is being charged.


----------



## Remius (8 Apr 2014)

Come come now.  This is obviously a witch hunt.


----------



## Bluebulldog (8 Apr 2014)

Let's not ignore that in the face of obvious financial mis-management, and possibly inappropriate accounting practices...another band gave the boob a job doing the exact same thing.  :facepalm:


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Apr 2014)

Let's also remember that while he has been charged, he has not been convicted of anything and is considered innocent until proven guilty in court.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Apr 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Come come now.  This is obviously a witch hunt.



Funny thing about witch hunts... sometimes they actually bag a witch.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Apr 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Funny thing about witch hunts... sometimes they actually bag a witch.



She'll turn you into a newt!


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Apr 2014)

I'll get better.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Apr 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I'll get better.



But cannot bridges be also made out of stone?


----------



## Remius (9 Apr 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Funny thing about witch hunts... sometimes they actually bag a witch.



Only if the witch floats.  Then you burn it.   ;D


----------



## my72jeep (9 Apr 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Only if the witch floats.  Then you burn it.   ;D


Oh my she will burn for days.......


----------



## George Wallace (9 Apr 2014)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Oh my she will burn for days.......



Yup....Only need a good wick.


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Apr 2014)

Someone I was speaking with asked where he could apply for a job like that.

I asked him if he saw who he had to sleep with the get the job........

......There just isn't enough alcohol or therapy to reconcile that image in a damaged brain.


----------



## The_Falcon (9 Apr 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Someone I was speaking with asked where he could apply for a job like that.
> 
> I asked him if he saw who he had to sleep with the get the job........
> 
> ......There just isn't enough alcohol or therapy to reconcile that image in a damaged brain.



Roofies and GHB


----------



## George Wallace (9 Apr 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Roofies and GHB



Where is the 'shudder' epicon?


----------



## Bluebulldog (9 Apr 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Roofies and GHB



That might explain why the guy was lousy at accounting.


----------



## Remius (9 Apr 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> That might explain why the guy was lousy at accounting.



Bah, he was probably very good at accounting.  Just not good at covering it up.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 May 2014)

It is a crying shame that what is probably the best hope for First Nations - a good education for young people - has fallen by the wayside because some (most?) First Nations are playing politics with the issue.

This _infographic_ compares black and white Americans, but it probably holds true (with more extreme numbers) for First Nations and whites in Canada:







The one thing that 70+ years of living and working on five continents has taught me is that race is totally meaningless, but: culture matters.

Some (man? most?) First Nations leaders are trying to _create_ a cultural narrative that _excuses_ them and their predecessors for generations, even centuries of inadequate leadership. Part of that _creative_ process involves teaching First Nations youth that they are victims and that the big, bad Western/_settler_ society owes them something and must be made to pay. There's some truth in all that - our society did lie, cheat and steal and First Nations do have many, many legitimate grievances for which some redress is due. But redress in the form of a land base and cash will, in many cases, be wasted, frittered away by leaders who are not held to account because the people are too ill-informed to hold them to account. Education - a good solid, _Three Rs_ type education, is the best way out of the enduring trap of ignorance and poverty for First Nations.

It is a crying shame that they don't have enough good leaders ...


----------



## Good2Golf (10 May 2014)

*clink*  Mr. Campbell, that was the sound of you hitting the proverbial nail on the head.  :nod:

A close family member worked for decades with First Nations people and he lamented that the leadership was most often self-interested and that this reinforced the belief by many (the majority of First Nations members who receive a disproportionately small amount of the money provided as well as many non-First Nations Canadians who don't know the detail behind the front-page stories) that the First Nations on the whole are deliberately underfunded and neglected.  He noted that most Canadians don't appreciate the power and wealth that may band seniors accumulate at the cost of the general band membership.

As you noted, a crying shame that standout communities, with equitable sharing of wealth and true prosperity are in the minority.

Regards
G2G


----------



## The_Falcon (10 May 2014)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> As you noted, a crying shame that standout communities, with equitable sharing of wealth and true prosperity are in the minority.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



And these communities also don't receive as much attention in the media (mainstream or otherwise) or are summarily dismissed as being outliers, as their stories/success upset the narrative.  Heaven forbid they be used as examples/blueprints for other communities to become successful, and thus no longer be outliers.  Of course like most things in life, success takes actual hard work and perseverance, much easier to bitch, whine, moan, and block rail lines.  And what about all the professional non-native sh*t disturbers?  If the majority of Native communities did start becoming successful and less reliant on government hand-outs, what will those people do for a living?  Putting those people out of work, what cruelty.


----------



## George Wallace (10 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> ............  And what about all the professional non-native sh*t disturbers?  If the majority of Native communities did start becoming successful and less reliant on government hand-outs, what will those people do for a living?  Putting those people out of work, what cruelty.



No need to worry.  They are unemployed, for the most part, professional protesters.  The will flock from one cause to another at the drop of a hat.  They are professional "Migrant Protesters".


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 May 2014)

>It is a crying shame that what is probably the best hope for First Nations - a good education for young people - has fallen by the wayside because some (most?) First Nations are playing politics with the issue.

It is worse than that.  Consider economist Tyler Cowen's thesis in Average is Over - that prosperity will tend to accrue to those with education and aptitude to work in automated and computerized environments.  If he is correct, people deprived of a solid basic education have fewer future prospects than most people currently imagine.

Disadvantaged kids do and will pay a heck of a high lifetime opportunity tax as the cost of providing professional whiners and progressives with occasions to embellish their perceived moral advantage.  Another opportunity for reform goes by, another year goes by, and the barrier of under-education ratchets up another notch.


----------



## Old Sweat (10 May 2014)

And discontent and militancy grow fuelled by frustration and by certain factions who see more merit in their claims than exists in law and practice.


----------



## my72jeep (21 May 2014)

The 2014 flood season is here and my Broke assed Town has taken in 87 people from Attawapiskat with more coming, Monday after noon I got a call to have a school bus ready to go to all the hotels to pick up any Attawapiskat people and take them to Bingo. The farthest hotel from the bingo hall is less then a half a km. when asked 1, why they need a buss. 2. why are we taking them to bingo. I was told Cultural Necessity.  You don't want to hear the answer to question #3 Who's paying for Bingo.


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 May 2014)

Members may want to take a look at Jeffrey Simpson's latest column in the _Globe amd Mail_. Mr Simpson asks a very pertinent question: "These First Nations communities, Mr. Anaya correctly observed, wish to be treated and to act as “self-governing nations,” based on treaties, historic occupation and culture, without enough of their people asking where is the capacity and revenue going to come from to provide the full range of services expected of “self-governing nations” with populations smaller than that of most towns? Who is kidding whom about the ability, given these numbers, to provide health, welfare, education, justice, policing and the other services rightly demanded by any population of its own government?"

OK, that's two questions, but they are both pertinent.

When dealing with First Nations governance issues we, all of us, are a bit like these guys:





The blind leading the blind


----------



## OldSolduer (21 May 2014)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> The 2014 flood season is here and my Broke assed Town has taken in 87 people from Attawapiskat with more coming, Monday after noon I got a call to have a school bus ready to go to all the hotels to pick up any Attawapiskat people and take them to Bingo. The farthest hotel from the bingo hall is less then a half a km. when asked 1, why they need a buss. 2. why are we taking them to bingo. I was told Cultural Necessity.  You don't want to hear the answer to question #3 Who's paying for Bingo.



And don't ask them to smoke outside like the rest of us.


----------



## CougarKing (1 Aug 2014)

Just appalling. A First Nations Chief earning  nearly a million dollars after taxes for leading a band of just 80 people, when his actual salary should only be around $84,000.

VanCity Buzz



> COQUITLAM FIRST NATION CHIEF EARNED $914,219 TAX FREE SALARY IN 2013
> BY VANCITY BUZZ STAFF | 12 HOURS AGO
> 
> Kwikwetlem First Nation chief Ron Giesbrecht makes nearly three times more than Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Aug 2014)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A bit more detail, presented without comment:


> In an exclusive interview with the Tri-Cities NOW, the chief of the Kwikwetlem First Nation is defending the whopping salary he took home last year.
> 
> Chief Ron Giesbrecht told the Tri-Cities NOW he made about $800,000 as a bonus last year after taking over the role of economic development officer for the band.
> 
> ...


----------



## RedcapCrusader (1 Aug 2014)

Calgary region Tsuu T'ina chief publically announced today that he will not disclose any of his figures or any of those in his council.

Tsuu T'ina has 1500 people registered (who knows how many actually reside there) and received $1.8mil last year in just "economic development" funds


----------



## CougarKing (22 Sep 2014)

Rio Tinto again in the news:

Reuters



> *Court rules Canadian aboriginal lawsuit vs Rio Tinto can go ahead*
> Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:13pm EDT
> 
> VANCOUVER (Reuters) - A Quebec court has ruled that a C$900 million ($815 million) lawsuit by two Canadian aboriginal communities against a subsidiary of Rio Tinto (RIO.L: Quote)(RIO.AX: Quote) can proceed.
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Sep 2014)

That is an "inherited case" from the Alcan days. Having dealt with the Alcan senior management I can imagine the claim has some substance.


----------



## CougarKing (17 Nov 2014)

Not sure if some First Nations groups in Alberta might echo similar sentiments to this...

One only wonders what groups on either side of the border will do if the Keystone bill does pass the US Senate... (and if Obama doesn't use his veto...)

SUN NEWS



> *Keystone approval an ‘act of war,’ says Native American tribe*
> 4:26 pm, November 15th, 2014
> 
> The Rosebud Sioux Tribe of South Dakota has called the U.S. House of Representatives' authorization of Keystone XL an “act of war” and vowed to close its borders to stop the pipeline.
> ...


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2014)

Not too sure about the routing of pipelines but could Keystone be routed around this reservation?


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Nov 2014)

...and then not hire any of those citizens of a sovereign nation to work on it.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> ...and then not hire any of those citizens of a sovereign nation to work on it.



That thought went through my mind just after I hit post.....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That thought went through my mind just after I hit post.....



Typically, when we see this kind of rhetoric and posturing, it's simply the band councils that are making noise in order to extort more money from the principals. The rest of the band fall in line so they won't be blackballed, cut out of the meager profits, left over after the council has its share first.

Everyone has their price, and the aboriginals learned a long time ago that if the white man wants something bad enough, there's no limit to what he'll pay.


----------



## Rocky Mountains (18 Nov 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Typically, when we see this kind of rhetoric and posturing, it's simply the band councils that are making noise in order to extort more money from the principals. The rest of the band fall in line so they won't be blackballed



I am old enough to remember the days when you would hear Indians say they liked the residential schools.  You never hear that anymore.  Doesn't fit the narrative.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Nov 2014)

I have heard the same, some schools were good, others were bad and the people in charge failed those that went to the badly run ones.


----------



## Rifleman62 (24 Nov 2014)

All these different organizations, tribes, and now Ontario/Quebec who are against economic development/pipelines don't seem to realize where their provincial welfare comes from.  

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/flurry-of-bc-court-battles-threatens-to-drive-away-investment/article21717760/

*Flurry of B.C. court battles threaten to drive away investment*

VANCOUVER — The Globe and Mail- Mark Hume - Published Saturday, Nov. 22 2014, 2:38 PM EST

A flurry of court cases has tied up more than $25-billion worth of resource projects this year as First Nations, environmental groups and others battle pipelines, mines, a dam and a coal port – a situation that some observers fear will drive away investment.

“Well, it’s not new, but arguably it’s intensified,” Jock Finlayson, executive vice-president and chief policy officer for the Business Council of B.C., said of the legal roadblocks.

Mr. Finlayson said the province has a long history of court battles over resource developments, but he worries British Columbia’s reputation could suffer if the wave of litigation continues.

“Even though it’s not a new phenomenon . . . it is getting more complex and costly over time – so it does hurt us,” he said.

First Nations that say they were not adequately consulted on developments, and non-governmental organizations challenging federal or provincial environmental permits, make up the bulk of the 38 cases, a review of court records by The Globe and Mail has shown. But municipal governments are also bringing cases, and resource companies are using the courts too, to get injunctions against protesters.

Mr. Finlayson said he is not critical of groups that take action to protect their legal rights, but too many projects could be entangled in court for too long.

“People outside the province, whether they are investors, institutional money managers or actual corporations . . . might look at B.C. and say it’s too difficult to do business there,” he said. “We’re not there yet, because as I look at the amount of investment under way, clearly we’re continuing to attract our share, but I do think there’s some risk around it.”

Ravina Bains, associate director of aboriginal policy at the Fraser Institute, said a recent survey of mining companies shows executives in that industry are already wary of B.C.

“The No. 1 reason why investors are reluctant to invest in B.C. is because of the First Nations land-uncertainty question,” she said. “It’s clearly having an impact because this is an issue that’s top of mind for potential mining developers.”

Ms. Bains said a Supreme Court of Canada decision this summer that confirmed the Tsilhqot’in First Nation have title over a sprawling territory in central B.C. has spurred more court action from others.

“I think that judgment was a real game-changer. It was historic . . . it provided an example for different First Nation communities to use the court system versus actually negotiating with different levels of government,” she said.

Gwen Barlee, policy director of the environmental group, the Wilderness Committee, said one of the reasons for all the legal action is that the government is not doing enough to protect the environment.

“I think people are losing faith in the system and they don’t think there’s appropriate checks and balances with provincial environmental laws or federal environmental laws,” she said. “So when those [resource project] decisions come down, people are saying, ‘We don’t think that those were measured and appropriate decisions and we’re going to go to court because of that.’”

Chris Tollefson, executive director of the Environmental Law Centre at the University of Victoria, said one way to restore public confidence and cut down on the litigation would be for the province to get out of the agreement that authorizes the National Energy Board, a federal agency, to approve projects such as the Northern Gateway and Trans Mountain pipeline proposals. Prior to 2010, B.C. held its own environmental hearings, but in seeking to streamline the process, the province handed off authority for environmental reviews to Ottawa on some big energy projects. This limited the province’s option to block projects it objected to.

Mr. Tollefson, who is representing the conservation group BC Nature in two Federal Court of Appeal cases related to the Northern Gateway proposal, said NGOs and First Nations think hard before deciding to go to court because it is so expensive.

“It depends on the number of days it is in court and how much work is involved in bringing the matter forward, but . . . I would say in the average case you are looking at a liability of between $25,000 and $100,000 easily,” he said. If the groups win, they can recover costs – but if they lose they can get stuck not only with their own legal bills, but a significant portion of the costs incurred by companies or governments to defend the suits.

“It’s a very serious commitment,” Mr. Tollefson said of the decision to go to court.


----------



## Rifleman62 (24 Nov 2014)

http://arizonarepublic.az.newsmemory.com/?fod=1111111&cnum=3952677&token=54033fd2033c04bbcdc54544361e07b1&selDate=20141124&licenseType=paid_subscriber


----------



## a_majoor (25 Nov 2014)

It seems like the various anti capitalist protestors and movements have read  of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" in reverse. Their actions are creating a huge sea of "Dead Capital" where British Columbia used to be.

One can only wonder what the _real_ motives behind this evidently self defeating program is.


----------



## ModlrMike (25 Nov 2014)

Ask Tides US, the Packard Foundation etc...


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Nov 2014)

"one way to ... cut down on the litigation would be..."

...to put funding of anything which serves obstructionist organizations at the bottom of a list contingent on targets for resource-driven revenues being achieved.  Let them pay the price first and see how strong their resolve is to make the sacrifices for which they call.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Jan 2015)

BC is wary of the mining industry after stuff like this 






The main problem with mining is that almost all the "easy" deposits have been depleted and the up front capital costs to start a new project are staggering. One project is proposing a 14km long tunnel under a mountain just to get access to the deposit and that tunnel would have to support truck traffic, slurry pipelines and power lines. http://www.novagold.com/section.asp?pageid=22238  KSM just was approved by sort of in the same boat, the upfront cost are crazy http://seabridgegold.net/ksm_engineer.php
  
Most of the bands are opposed to the oil sands pipelines, Coastal FN's generally support the LNG export projects http://www.thenorthernview.com/news/286227721.html

But bands like the Fort Nelson FN have significant issues with the extraction side http://www.legassembly.gov.yk.ca/pdf/rbhf_FNFN-Presentation.pdf

I would say that the majority of bands in BC want development, but the current pace of development is overwhelming them and even the bands that want to be engaged can't meet the demand for their time to consult. I seen with my own eyes one bands very committed team walking around like zombies because at least 7 different LNG export companies all want to meet with them at the same time.

The BC Liberals pushing Site C right now was a very poor strategic decision as it pushed the FN's into a confrontation they weren't looking for. The Federal government in Ottawa has been ignoring FN consultation in BC for the most part despite warnings from the regional departments heads and the panicked response sending out he Ministers at the last minute just showed how unaware Ottawa is. the Legal ground is very different here then other parts of Canada. The FN's don't agree on their own boundaries, very little of BC is covered by Treaties and those that are can be ambiguous and badly worded.
What the natives don't see coming is that the population of BC is changing and the new immigrants will not care about FN issues and when the politicians sense that their is no political capital in pursuing Treaties, the issue will grind to a halt on the government side. The bands are challenged by many being to small to be economically viable and to remote to sustain economic livelihoods for the young. While the demographic i generally young, there is a schism forming between the 'purebloods" and the "mixed Indians" which is going to eventually upset the grip on power that certain families in each band have. Toss in the animosity between hereditary chiefs, Elder councils , elected back councils, FN development corporations and the warrior society (plus gang issues) and things can really get weird.


----------



## Rifleman62 (6 Apr 2015)

The WFN pretty well own all the malls (lots of malls) in West Kelowna, BC

*WFN celebrates success*

by Ragnar Haagen - Mar 31, 2015

While many First Nations across Canada continue to face significant hardships, Westbank First Nation continues to buck that trend.

WFN celebrates 10 years of self-governance this week.

But it was only through a long process of negotiation and community consultation that the possibility became law on May 6, 2004, and came into force on April 1, 2005.

Many First Nation reserves, especially in Canada's North, lack proper infrastructure, everyday services and the quality of life most Canadians take for granted. Not so in Westbank, where the band has developed lucrative residential, commercial and recreation properties, making it one of the most prosperous First Nations in Canada.

“I am proud of how far our community has come over the past 10 years,” Chief Robert Louie said Tuesday.

“Self-government has opened doors to opportunities that the community would not have seen if we were still governed by Canada. Not only has self-government increased the accountability and transparency of the WFN government as well as bringing a great sense of pride to our community, but it has also resulted in increased opportunities for our members, increased property values and an improved standard of living.”

In fact, property values have skyrocketed over the past 10 years, with the Westbank First Nation now ranked 61st in the province for assessed value, out of 162 B.C. municipalities.

The value of band land has nearly quadrupled during that time, from $398 million to more than $1.4 billion, according to the WFN.

The band says they've also contributed $80 million of annual fiscal revenue to the federal and provincial governments through the generation of sales tax, personal income tax and corporate tax on Westbank First Nation Lands, $500 million annually to the local economy, and remains one of the largest employers on the Westside.

And down the road, South:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-magazine/clarence-louie-feature/article18913980/
*
How a B.C. native band went from poverty to prosperity*

Jake MacDonald- 29 May 14

The Osoyoos Indian Band is arguably the most business-minded First Nation in Canada.
So what’s the secret to their success?


----------



## CougarKing (2 Oct 2015)

Pipeline opponents begin to gather:

Reuters



> *Canada's native chiefs reviewing treaty to block oil industry expansion*
> Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:26pm EDT
> By Mike De Souza
> 
> ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (2 Oct 2015)

Apparently not all First Nations are against pipelines. Re-produced under the usual provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Eagle Spirit Energy’s pipeline plan in northern B.C. gets backing of First Nations chiefs
> 
> Geoffrey Morgan | September 30, 2015 | Last Updated: Sep 30 12:01 AM ET
> 
> ...



 Article Link


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Oct 2015)

Ho-hum.  It's never about the "land".  It's always about the money.


----------



## CougarKing (10 Feb 2016)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> It's always about the money.



And speaking of which...

CBC



> *Oil producing Sask. First Nations sue Canadian Government for billions*
> CBC
> February 9, 2016
> 
> ...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Feb 2016)

Let me see if I get this straight:

First Nations, who are almost always the first to object to any form of project they are offered for oil exploration/exploitation on their territory because of their "sacred" relation to the land, their "respect for the environment" and the need for the land for their "traditional" way of life are now complaining the government didn't do enough to support that type of development?

This ought to be interesting to watch.  op:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Feb 2016)

So we have FNs in the west bitching about non development and FN east against the pipleine. Perhaps we could just sit back and watch them deal with each other for a change. :


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Feb 2016)

Chief Clarence Louie sounds like a great leader.
http://www.thereminder.ca/news/local-news/get-a-damn-job-chief-offers-blunt-remedy-for-what-ails-first-nations-1.2171595

His advice for young members;


> Get a damn job, be a man. It should be embarrassing for you to raise your kids on welfare.”
> 
> Looking to succeed in the workplace? “Be punctual. Be on time. Indian time doesn’t cut it.”
> 
> Deciding what to read? “Too many times I go into Indian people’s houses, even on my own rez, I see tabloids.



The article also mentions now not only 80% of the members are employed but how they've hired from 30 other reserves.  Pretty impressive.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Feb 2016)

In BC I would say the changes at most Reserves is for the most part in the positive. Often the want and will is there, just not the jobs or the knowledge.


----------



## CougarKing (15 Sep 2016)

No doubt the press will bring up the 1990 Oka crisis again:

Canadian Press



> *Indigenous communities should have power to call in the military: chief*
> [The Canadian Press]
> September 14, 2016
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2016)

DefMin tones down expectations in an interview with the _Winnipeg Free Press_:


> Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan threw a reality check on the notion he is considering giving direct power to First Nations to call in the military when they feel their rights or communities are being threatened.
> 
> Sajjan met with indigenous leadership in Winnipeg Wednesday as part of his national defence policy review. At that meeting Ron Swain, vice-chief of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, which represents all off-reserve status and non-status First Nations, Métis and Southern Inuit, raised the issue of needing the military to come to the aid of indigenous peoples trying to defend their rights or territories.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bass ackwards (4 Jul 2017)

I'll put this here for now rather than starting yet another white versus red topic.

This is from the CBC and reproduced here under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/city-advocates-defend-anti-racism-billboards-1.4188754

*City of Saskatoon, advocates defend anti-racism billboards*
'It's not staged actors, nor did the city make up those quotes'
By Charles Hamilton, CBC News Posted: Jul 04, 2017 3:00 AM CT Last Updated: Jul 04, 2017 3:00 AM CT

A billboard that drew the ire of some Saskatoon residents online is being heralded as a much-needed conversation starter about racism. 

The sign on Circle Drive is part of the city's campaign called "I am the Bridge" — a multimedia effort designed to share people's stories and insights on their experiences with racism.

One particular billboard shows a photo of a man who appears to be white and a quote that reads "I have to acknowledge my own privilege and racist attitudes." 

Sheelah Mclean, a co-founder of Idle No More and an anti-opression educator, says she understands why billboards about white privilege and racism make some people uncomfortable.

'There are going to be people who feel guilt'
- Sheelah McLean 
"There are going to be people who feel guilt, there are going to be people who are going to feel sadness that they didn't know this information, they had never been taught it. There are going to be people who feel anger. It's all called backlashing," McLean said. 

Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations Chief Bobby Cameron agrees. He says the billboard is part of ongoing and important conversations concerning race and prejudice around the province. 

"It's a good thing if it's generating discussion. There will always be some negative comments and everything else. But we can pray for them and we certainly do," Cameron said.

Cameron pointed to commitments and agreements the FSIN has made in recent months with several Saskatchewan municipalities as evidence that things are moving in the right direction. 

"We cannot change the attitudes or opinions of the 50-year-olds or the 60-year-olds who have always hated people for their skin colour. We cannot change them. But we can start focusing and educating those children to understand that we are in the province, this world together," Cameron said. 

The City of Saskatoon spearheaded the campaign. 

During the launch, Mayor Charlie Clark said the campaign was about "building relationships and a shared understanding."


Backlash part of the 'myth of meritocracy'

McLean says decades of research and experiences of aboriginal and other visible minority Canadians has shown that white privilege is real. 

"The idea that white privilege doesn't exist or that not everybody benefits from it who is light skinned is actually false, it's a fallacy," McLean said.

She says as a white person she understands how being confronted with that knowledge can be upsetting for some. McLean herself participated in the campaign by offering her own thoughts on racism.   

She says the "myth of meritocracy" — the idea that light skinned people get to where they are solely because of things like hard work — is simply not true. 

While she says many light skinned or white people may have felt oppression in one form or another, they have not felt racial oppression. Educating people about privilege and racism, she says, is what the campaign is all about. . 

City defends billboards 

The project asked citizens to submit videos sharing their experiences, and the most powerful quotes were used to create the campaign.

"It's real people who live in Saskatoon. It's not staged actors, nor did the city make up those quotes," said Lynne Lacroix, the city's director of community development.

"These billboards were not intended to suggest that all people have to do the same thing or that all people are racist."

The city's website points out the fact that racism exists in Saskatoon. One cited example is the fact a large majority of Aboriginal people in Saskatoon agree with the statement  "I think others behave in an unfair/negative way towards Aboriginal people." That came from a research project called 'Urban Aboriginal Peoples Study: Saskatoon Report' done back in 2011. 

Lacroix said she is pleased the campaign is creating discussion around racism in Saskatoon. 

"Also encouraging the rest of the community to gain a broader understanding of the nature of racism because that is what is really critical for us all to recognize, to know what racism is, in order to address it," she said. 

************************************************

The article has a photo of the offending billboard with the racist bastard earnest-looking middle-aged white male confessing his guilt.


----------



## gryphonv (4 Jul 2017)

Another example of Socially Acceptable Racism. As long as it is directed to White people.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jul 2017)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> *City of Saskatoon, advocates defend anti-racism billboards*
> 'It's not staged actors, nor did the city make up those quotes'
> By Charles Hamilton, CBC News Posted: Jul 04, 2017 3:00 AM CT Last Updated: Jul 04, 2017 3:00 AM CT
> 
> ...



I really can't stand that narrative. 
What you're feeling is guilt. 
You're uncomfortable. 
You need to acknowledge your privilege. 

The worst are white people with a holier than thou attitude trying to enlighten the misguided masses.  

I have zero guilt and I'm not uncomfortable.


----------



## Kat Stevens (4 Jul 2017)

I personally can only be held responsible for all the bad things that happened to anyone who isn't me since 1968, when I emigrated from England. This is typical immigrant bashing, and I'm starting to feel repressed.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2017)

My English side is feeling guilty for oppressing my Scottish side.


----------



## gryphonv (4 Jul 2017)

Colin P said:
			
		

> My English side is feeling guilty for oppressing my Scottish side.



Thats ok, the Scottish got a better deal than the Irish.


----------



## Remius (4 Jul 2017)

A recent article that I happen to agree with and explain my sentiments on this particular issue. 

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-robson-canadians-feel-for-aboriginals-but-our-patience-for-too-many-insults-has-limits/wcm/0ceac263-d2b2-4619-a8af-1ac4f9fa60ee


----------



## Lightguns (4 Jul 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I really can't stand that narrative.
> What you're feeling is guilt.
> You're uncomfortable.
> You need to acknowledge your privilege.
> ...



Propaganda, it doesn't care how you feel as an individual the attempt is to effect a society elite and it's working.  Ask a South African army veteran about giving your all and being screwed by your own elites.


----------



## Loachman (4 Jul 2017)

I want my ancient lands restored to me by, and an apology from, those f&*#ing Normans.

It's been almost a thousand years, and still nothing.


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Jul 2017)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I want my ancient lands restored to me by, and an apology from, those f&*#ing Normans.
> 
> It's been almost a thousand years, and still nothing.



Hey, hey!!  Don't go blaming my great great ......  he was just another economic migrant, going where his employer posted him.  It's not his fault that he worked directly for the big boss as his Cup Bearer. Sheesh!


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Jul 2017)

Remius said:
			
		

> A recent article that I happen to agree with and explain my sentiments on this particular issue.
> 
> http://nationalpost.com/opinion/john-robson-canadians-feel-for-aboriginals-but-our-patience-for-too-many-insults-has-limits/wcm/0ceac263-d2b2-4619-a8af-1ac4f9fa60ee



 :goodpost:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2017)

gryphonv said:
			
		

> Thats ok, the Scottish got a better deal than the Irish.



Apparently after failing in an attempt to take the Scottish Crown, some of my ancestors went to Ireland to shag the lasses there, the name "McWilliam" starts to pop up in the family tree of the Irish female pirate Grainne.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Jul 2017)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I personally can only be held responsible for all the bad things that happened to anyone who isn't me since 1968, when I emigrated from England. This is typical immigrant bashing, and I'm starting to feel repressed.



WAIT!  Trudeau says that "you, as an immigrant are more Canadian that the rest of us.  We take it for granted.  You actually value it."


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jul 2017)

Where did he say that?


----------



## ModlrMike (5 Jul 2017)

http://globalnews.ca/news/3567893/justin-trudeau-jealous-immigrants-ctv-interview/


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Jul 2017)

F**-ing  hell. You just gotta love that guy eh?


----------



## Lightguns (5 Jul 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> F**-ing  hell. You just gotta love that guy eh?



But that hair............ :facepalm:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Jul 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> WAIT!  Trudeau says that "you, as an immigrant are more Canadian that the rest of us.  We take it for granted.  You actually value it."



Cool!  Because my mothers side is from Noddingham (her father immigrated) and my fathers family came over from Scotland.   ;D

That means I am _also_ special!   eace:


----------



## Kat Stevens (5 Jul 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Cool!  Because my mothers side is from Noddingham (her father immigrated) and my fathers family came over from Scotland.   ;D
> 
> That means I am _also_ special!   eace:



Ahem, "Nottingham ". And it's pronounced NOTTING-um, not notting-HAM. Just a public service announcement.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jul 2017)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Cool!  Because my mothers side is from Noddingham (her father immigrated) and my fathers family came over from Scotland.   ;D
> 
> That means I am _also_ special!   eace:



Actually NO.....Your mother is special......You are one of those who takes everything Canadian for granted.   [Xp


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Jul 2017)

>WAIT!  Trudeau says that "you, as an immigrant are more Canadian that the rest of us.  We take it for granted.  You actually value it."

Relax.  Trudeau only speaks for himself and the federal government of Canada; he does not speak for you or me or anyone else who does not expressly consent to him doing so.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Jul 2017)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Relax.  Trudeau only speaks for himself and the federal government of Canada; he does not speak for you or me or anyone else who does not expressly consent to him doing so.



So you are saying that he is only a "talking head".


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Jul 2017)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Ahem, "Nottingham ". And it's pronounced NOTTING-um, not notting-HAM. Just a public service announcement.



Good catch. Showing off my PEI education again...


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Jul 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually NO.....Your mother is special......You are one of those who takes everything Canadian for granted.   [Xp



Dammit.  I am offended.  Where are my lawyers, Keyboard Commandos and SJW supporters!!


----------



## Loachman (28 Jul 2017)

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/07/25/the-mmiw-is-stuck-in-a-politically-correct-limbo

The MMIW is stuck in a politically correct limbo 

By Lorne Gunter , Edmonton Sun 
First posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 05:32 PM EDT | Updated: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 05:36 PM EDT 

The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, better known as the MMIW, is nearly a year old. It would be fair, though, to say it has been derailed before even leaving the station.

In it’s 11 months, the MMIW has managed to hold one - yes, one - hearing. That was in Whitehorse in June and a week before testimony was to begin, no one had a clue who would be relating their stories or when.

Despite a budget of nearly $54 million (which will almost certainly climb higher) and a timetable of two-and-a-half years (which commissioners have already said will need to be extended), the inquiry has achieved little other than driving employees away and angering First Nations groups.

Earlier this month, one of the MMIW’s five commissioners, law professor Marilyn Poitras, resigned. Before that, the executive director quit, as did a communications advisor, the director of operations and the manager of community relations.
Its first communications director was fired earlier this year.

The explanation for all this dysfunctionality may be that the MMIW seems to have a preconceived notion of what it wants to find – that white racism is the cause of most cases of murdered and disappeared indigenous women and girls. Yet it cannot reconcile that pre-made conclusion with the truth.

The truth is most First Nations women who suffer violence and sexual violence are victims of spouses, partners, ex-husbands, boyfriends, neighbours, relatives, or criminal accomplices.

And the majority of those abusers are indigenous men.

It was puzzling last summer when the Liberal government released a list of goals for the MMIW. Not on the list was an examination of just who was murdering all of these indigenous women and why.

So from the start, neither the Trudeau government nor the MMIW was truly interested in getting to the bottom of the problem. And if you refuse to identify the source you will never find a solution.

But there clearly is a problem.

First Nations women are as many as six times as likely as non-indigenous women to suffer violence, such as domestic abuse, assault, sexual assault and murder.

The Liberals and the commissioners seem to want to find that this is the result of rampant racism, in much the same way the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (2008-2015) was eager from its outset to blame residential schools for all the problems with broken indigenous culture.

The Liberals and the MMIW inquiry seem keen to find that racism infects our police forces and courts, who because of that bigotry turn a blind eye to violence against indigenous women. That would “prove” the violence itself and the perceived lack of institutional and societal concern are by-products of racism, not of broken indigenous culture.

But here are a few facts to mull over.

Indigenous men are even more likely to be victims of violence than indigenous women. So indigenous women aren’t more victimized and more ignored.

Furthermore, the rate at which crimes are solved and prosecuted is the same for crimes against missing and murdered indigenous women as it is for similar crimes against non-indigenous women. The “clearance rate” is about 90 per cent for both.

In other words, there is no systemic bias or blindness that ignores the plight of female indigenous victims.

White society can’t be blamed mostly, nor an indifferent court system, nor the RCMP and local police.

But since the commission was designed not to blame First Nations culture or indigenous men, it is stuck in a politically correct limbo.

It is tasked with finding the truth, unless the truth it finds is politically incorrect, at which point the MMIW’s mission becomes ignoring the truth.


----------



## jollyjacktar (28 Jul 2017)

Oooooo, that article could catch more flack than a Lancaster over Berlin.  I can imagine the outrage that could come from that one.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Jul 2017)

Its in the Sun, Liberals and SJWs don't read it anyway. Put it in Maclean's, the National Post or Globe and watch the chaos ensue.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (29 Jul 2017)

Unfortunately the article does address the rout cause of violence against aboriginal women, but it isn't what people want to hear.

I have family living up north, and the stories they have of the area say a lot. Here is a article from one of the papers in Nunavut, where a man raped a women at gun point.

http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/article/65674gun-toting_cape_dorset_rapist_gets_lifetime_firearm_ban/


----------



## gryphonv (29 Jul 2017)

As heinous as this is... it flew under the radar nationally... if it wasn't a native guy commiting the crime I'm sure a lot more news originizations would of picked it up.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2017)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately the article does address the rout cause of violence against aboriginal women, but it isn't what people want to hear ...


... not to mention not easy to solve all in one go.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2019)

Well, Canada just paid $92 million dollars to establish that there's a female genocide going on.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2019)

From the justice thread.



[quote author=Kyle Burrows] 

 That may be your individual belief, but it is not something that you, as an individual, can assert universally.[/QUOTE] 
No, you're right it's not. I'm basing it off what I've read and heard in person from. FN members, military and civilian, who grew up on the reserves. I didn't see it first hand or work in the field like yourself. 



> As stated above, systemic abuse is not something that is limited to reserves.  Tying this back to the reserves is ignorant and a straw man argument.  Moving the same family unit off a reserve would not address the cause.


I'm not saying it's limited to the reserves. Are you suggesting there isn't a higher amount of abuse that happens on reserves compared to similar sized towns off reserve? 




> Discussing the financial management of the reserve system is not the purpose of this thread.


I know but I think they're all components that come together which enables successive generations where abuse isn't addressed, and, as you say is passed on from generation to generation. 

By getting rid of the reserve system we would slowly but steadily begin to address the generation after generation of systemic abuse. 

Hence my belief no reserve system would mean FN, after time, wouldn't need to have special considerations given during sentencing due to systemic abuse. 



> We tried forced integration before.  It resulted in systemic abuse that Canada still wears the blame for.


Be that as it may, I've still never read anything positive about the reserve system, or, heard something positive about it from FN members I've spoke with. 

But... 


> Then you haven't looked.  The news is about as non-partisan to the reserve system as it is to the CAF.


Perhaps. Could you give me some examples?


----------



## Burrows (9 Jul 2019)

Jarnhamar,

You are welcome to your beliefs.  I found your initial post in the original thread to appear ignorant and generalizing in nature. It spoke to a lack of understanding of a much broader picture. Such assertions can reflect negatively upon the individual as well as the institution, particularly given the means we are on.

The fact of the matter is that there are hundreds of reserves in Canada and some are better off than others.  The same is true for non-reserve communities.  It isn't a perfect system - far from it.  There are many things we could do to improve things across the board.  The same way we can do many things to improve conditions in our cities, towns, and elsewhere.

We all have an obligation to educate ourselves and continue our education.  Particularly in areas we feel strongly enough about to make assertions.

So, instead of continuing here, I think this is a great opportunity for you to provide some rhetoric to support your original statement in the original thread.  I'd be happy to discuss those points with you.  We may both learn something new.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2019)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Jarnhamar,
> 
> You are welcome to your beliefs.


When I see statements like this I always think of a drunk guy telling me he doesn't want to fight (and what happens next) 
  

But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I _really_ think I'm right, but, you have one of those informed opinions I've heard about where mine is just an opinion. So maybe  I'm totally wrong, in which case that's great news to become better informed right?




> I found your initial post in the original thread to appear ignorant and generalizing in nature. It spoke to a lack of understanding of a much broader picture. Such assertions can reflect negatively upon the individual as well as the institution, particularly given the means we are on.



Well if someone decides to quote me and paint it to reflect negatively on me as an individual or this institution I hope they also quote where I've said (a few times) FN soldiers are the best I've had the pleasure of working with and would be biased about picking them 'for my team' before someone else. 

Moving on to my initial post. I looked back at my initial comment. If we got rid of the reserve system then after a while maybe we wouldn't need special considerations when sentencing FN people. Without evidence to the contrary I believe a significant amount of the problems FN face is due to the reserve system.

Why? Well where to begin. This very thread I believe has a number of examples where the reserve system fails while enabling continued abuse. 

Money. The government throws it at reserves and what do we hear happens? It disappears. Chiefs get rich and the people with dirt floors and broken ceptic systems continue to suffer. We can't track where the money goes because it's racist to question them.
Likewise money gets earmarked to be put towards infrastructure, let's say fixing up some kind of public Works building. A million dollars later the building is a shit pit, $10'000 was spent fixing a couple of things and the rest is gone. But that's not our business. 

Does the same thing happen with money designated for helping abused members or paying for services? I suspect it does but I may be wrong. 

I think the whole culture of giving away money but not holding anyone accountable enables generation after generation of suffering to continue. Abusers don't get the help they need. Abused people don't get the help they need. Abused people who become abusers don't get the help they need. It's a big cycle. No? 

What I've heard from FN members really impacted my beliefs about the reserve system. To a person they've all said it's horrible and needs to be scrapped. These are all solid soldiers or successful adults.
I'm pretty certain I've read about successful FN businesses and bands and, unless I'm mistaken, they spoke about moving away from reserves and things like "Indian time". 

I took a quick look (I'll go more in depth later) but I didn't see any websites speaking to positive aspects about reserve life. Maybe the positive successful ones just don't make the news?  

Do you have any ideas or suggestions that would stop the repeated cycles of abuse? And what the causes are?


----------



## Burrows (9 Jul 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Post



I am actually all for accountability when it comes to spending.  I think that if a reserve is going to be using government funding, then the government has a vested interest in ensuring effectiveness of that spending.  I agree, we have all seen the horror stories of misspending.  I just think it is very important to note that not all reserves are in the same position or receive the same funding.  Opening the books and preventing mismanagement would definitely help the system work better.  I would be most suspicious of those that would cry racism on that - but that in itself is a political game. And the media doesn't care about a well managed reserve, only ones that sell stories.

I don't think we have done enough historically with regards to paying for services or providing them.  It is only in the last few years that we have started investing funds in this area.  As a matter of interest, I am watching this closely.  The state of medical care, particularly in the far north, is quite a far cry from even a basic hospital down here.  Many communities only have a nursing station if they are lucky.  There are so many things that we can do better, and doing them better can only contribute to strengthening the ties between our community and those of the first nations.

There are many reserves that have a subsistence economy.  There are many that have integrated and many that have also innovated to their benefit.  At the end of the day, we may very well see the end of the reserve system.  The last estimate that I saw was that 70% of first nation members live off reserve.  Integration may very well be an eventuality, but letting it happen on the terms of the reserve members will hands down be more effective than forcing it.  And the fact of the matter is that so much of the culture is so rich, that it is in the interests of all of us to seek the preservation of it. (But hey, I love history).

IMO, the best way to stop the cycles of abuse will come from within the first nations communities.  We are still only a few generations away from some very real damage that was done at the hands of Canada.  With time, and with the right support, change will come.  It just needs to come through support, which means we need to align our practices with making a difference instead of headlines.  The CAF is definitely helping to create the leaders that will make this change through the summer training programs, ALOY, and CFAEP are all steps in a very positive direction.  The fact that many First Nations policing services are seeing more first nations recruits joining the ranks is a good sign as well.  The people that have broken the cycle will be the solution to helping those that need it.


Still want to have a barfight?


----------



## Throwaway987 (9 Jul 2019)

> I don't think we have done enough historically with regards to paying for services or providing them.  It is only in the last few years that we have started investing funds in this area.  As a matter of interest, I am watching this closely.  The state of medical care, particularly in the far north, is quite a far cry from even a basic hospital down here.  Many communities only have a nursing station if they are lucky.



Why is it unreasonable for there to be reduced health services in isolated locations? 

The argument for the equality of human life doesn’t magically make money appear out of thin air to pay for services. The local financial output/labour productivity/tax base of the area determines what services are available/affordable to that community. 

It shouldn’t be taboo to say that a small community in an isolated location only has access to limited services (and has reduced health outcomes as a result). i.e. Not every community can have their own hospital. Why can’t a nursing station be a reasonable service standard?

Edit: Included relevant quote


----------



## mariomike (9 Jul 2019)

Throwaway987 said:
			
		

> Why is it unreasonable for there to be reduced health services in isolated locations?



Unreasonable? Not for me to say.

But, from what I have read, I suspect ( all, most, some? ) taxpayers in rural Ontario feel entitled to similar paramedic response times as Toronto.


----------



## Brad Sallows (9 Jul 2019)

Isolated aboriginal communities should be no different from isolated non-aboriginal communities - all should receive the same levels of support for infrastructure, education, etc.  For that to work efficiently and effectively, all communities should be integrated the same way into Canada's federal and provincial governance structure.

The key problem for reserve communities is the same problem faced by non-reserve communities - being a company town without a company.  There's a solution for that, but the reserve "system" militates against it.

The key problem with the "system" is that it discourages mobility.


----------



## Cloud Cover (10 Jul 2019)

“The key problem with the system is that it discourages mobility”

Correct. If moving away results in some comparative disadvantage or loss of a benefit, why take the risk?


----------



## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> “The key problem with the system is that it discourages mobility”
> 
> Correct. If moving away results in some comparative disadvantage or loss of a benefit, why take the risk?



The reward for that the risk is access to increased opportunities for education/employment at another location.

People everywhere else in the country (if not the planet) move or change themselves to adapt to where there is employment. There is no obligation for people to move if they value their culture but they must also accept the responsibility and opportunity cost of that decision.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jul 2019)

The point is that the incentives and disincentives established by the reserve (and "status") system have adverse consequences unlike those facing people not subject to those policies.  I would say "really, really adverse consequences" but the degree is in the eye of the beholder.  If those ("unique") consequences were erased, we'd at least be dealing only with the customary ones.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jul 2019)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Still want to have a barfight?



Naw. Usually when someone says that they swing at you next.
I meant  "you're entitled to your opinion" always like the person saying it means something entirely else, but I'm just being my funny self 

We definitely agree about accountability.

Throwaway987 mentioned exactly the points I was going to bring up regarding not doing enough for communities.

How much is enough, how much is too much?

Seen a story today a out Attawapiskat and their on going water problems.
[ https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/now-we-can-t-even-bathe-in-it-state-of-emergency-in-attawapiskat-over-water-quality-1.4501396]



> “In this country there are thousands of Indigenous people that don’t have access to clean drinking water. Now we can’t even bathe in it? This is ridiculous,” said Attawapiskat resident Adrian Sutherland on CTV News Channel Tuesday.
> 
> NDP MP Charlie Angus, whose riding includes Attawapiskat, said the community is suffering from a failure by the federal government to provide long-term infrastructure.



Why does the federal government need to provide long term infrastructure? There isn't a lot going on for people in these remote places - which fuels high rates of addiction and suicide. At what point is it financially irresponsible to keep throwing money at remote settlements of 3000 people that can't sustain themselves?




As far as change coming from FN communities a friend of mine said something sad. "We can't be trusted to manage ourselves".

It's a contentious question but what if he was right? We know there is a lack of accountability with millions of dollars being given to reserves, there's corruption, there's members complaining about corruption and being ignored, nepotism and so on. 

What if in order to fix the reserve systems that are broke the Canadian government will need to step in and force financial accountability, fire corrupt band/council members and take over running things to get it back on track. Do you think we have a stomach for it?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2019)

A completely First Nation Federal Police force, with constables and eventually investigators and forensic auditors would be a start, formed under the wing of the RCMP, but separate. They would have the authority to step into any Reserve invited or not to investigate and police as required. That would remove the whole 'White boot on the throat" stuff and give young kids on remote reserve a role model to aspire to.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jul 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Naw. Usually when someone says that they swing at you next.
> I meant  "you're entitled to your opinion" always like the person saying it means something entirely else, but I'm just being my funny self
> 
> We definitely agree about accountability.
> ...



The Federal Government needs to provide long term infrastructure because it's the Federal Government's responsibility to do so as the land belongs to the Crown.  

The reason the Federal Government needs to fix the water system in Attawapiskat is because it is they who created the problem in the first place.



> Attawapiskat has long struggled with THM and HAA levels due to the *high level of naturally occurring organic material in the lake where the community draws its water*.
> 
> Gull said *the issue goes back to the 1970s when Ottawa decided use the lake water, which was originally intended to only feed the school, homes for teachers and the nursing station, to supply the whole community.*



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/attawapiskat-water-quality-emergency-1.5204652&ved=0ahUKEwjgrqbmyavjAhWhgFQKHYmaBCMQqQIIOygBMAI&usg=AOvVaw1VJh2veaSBKwdf0rUDso7U

Yep, the Federal Government knew
the 1970s the water situation wasn't adequate and they went and did it anyways, why?  

So what exactly have they done about it?  Commissioned two studies in 2008 and 2011 that both recommended water be drawn from the Attawapiskat River instead of the stagnant lake they presently draw it from. 

What action has been taken?  In typical Canadian Government fashion?  None!


----------



## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> The Federal Government needs to provide long term infrastructure because it's the Federal Government's responsibility to do so as the land belongs to the Crown.



What level of infrastructure does the government need to provide? If there wasn’t running water or electricity when they took over the land, why are they suddenly responsible for providing it now?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jul 2019)

This is a crisis, we live in one of the richest countries in the world yet we have people living in absolute squalor with no access to clean water.  

Children should not suffer kidney failure, cancer and other illnesses due to lack of access to clean water.

There is only one organization in Canada capable of responding with the necessary speed and precision to deal with this emergency, that is the Canadian Armed Forces.

The Federal Government should be IMMEDIATELY deploying Army Engineers to the town of Attawapiskat to stabilize the water situation in the town and buy time for Aboriginal Affairs and the rest of the Federal Government to get its act together.


----------



## dimsum (10 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> The Federal Government should be IMMEDIATELY deploying Army Engineers to the town of Attawapiskat to stabilize the water situation in the town and buy time for Aboriginal Affairs and the rest of the Federal Government to get its act together.



It would be funny (and very sad) if DART ends up being sent.  

Either way, the ON govt must request aid, no?  We (the CAF) can't just decide to show up.


----------



## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

I wholeheartedly disagree. Not all areas of Canada that are inhabited can have access to modern water distribution systems and modern water quality standards because it isn’t practical or cost effective to do so. There should be a reasonable balance between a community’s long term self-sufficiency and government intervention. 

The government should immediately halt any previous plans to deploy army engineers :2c:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jul 2019)

Throwaway987 said:
			
		

> What level of infrastructure does the government need to provide? If there wasn’t running water or electricity when they took over the land, why are they suddenly responsible for providing it now?



It's called basic human dignity, the minute you take it away from someone, you get this:









			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> It would be funny (and very sad) if DART ends up being sent.
> 
> Either way, the ON govt must request aid, no?  We (the CAF) can't just decide to show up.



That is a good question, my understanding is Reserves are Federal Land, administered by Aboriginal Affairs.


----------



## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

How does the desire for human dignity magically create financial resources to achieve this goal? Is that a “might makes right” argument?

The CBC article you linked suggested some pretty staggering costs. Don’t get me wrong, it would be incredible to be able to provide the best modern amenities at every desired location in Canada. How do we actually accomplish the grand ideas that we have? Seems like a lot of whimsical fantasy without a business plan or financial case for making this a reality.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jul 2019)

Throwaway987 said:
			
		

> How does the desire for human dignity magically create financial resources to achieve this goal?
> 
> The CBC article you linked suggested some pretty staggering costs. Don’t get me wrong, it would be incredible to be able to provide the best modern amenities at every desired location in Canada. How do we actually accomplish the grand ideas that we have? Seems like a lot of whimsical fantasy without a business plan or financial case for making this a reality.



The real reason we are required to do this is because we have these agreements called treaties, military, economic, political or otherwise which were relationships that developed between the First Nations and the Crown going back hundreds of years.  

These relationships were based on the principles of mutual respect and cooperation.  Principles that have been eroded by paternalistic and colonial policies enacted by many successive governments and the people of Canada writ large.

You talk about business cases but how can we make a business case when we have been conducting our business in bad faith?

It's time for this country to accept its transgressions, find some sort of truth and reconciliation, and pay the piper.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Jul 2019)

[quote author=Humphrey Bogart]
The Federal Government needs to provide long term infrastructure because it's the Federal Government's responsibility to do so as the land belongs to the Crown.  
[/quote]

I was surprised to read land on a reserve doesn't belong to the natives but to the crown. Maybe step 1 should be giving property on reserves over to the people living on them.


[quote author=Humphrey Bogart]The reason the Federal Government needs to fix the water system in Attawapiskat is because it is they who created the problem in the first place.[/quote]



> Gull said he asked officials with Indigenous Services Canada during a teleconference call on Monday to provide free bottled water to the community of 2,000, because many can't afford to purchase supplies from the local Northern Store.





> The cost of the expansion is estimated at about $300 million to $400 million over 20 years.



20 million dollars a year for a community of 2000 people. A community that can't support itself. Does that seem reasonable? It doesn't seem sustainable to me.







> What action has been taken?  In typical Canadian Government fashion?  None!




Audit investigation (2005–2011)


> *The audit "shows an unacceptable level of expenditures for which proper documentation was not provided."*[32] Aboriginal and Northern Affairs representative revealed that of the 316 homes, 85% are "unfit for human habitation".(CBC 2013-01-07).[31] The total amount of all AANDC funding to Attawapiskat First Nation which includes health, education, infrastructure, housing and administration, [notes 2] etc. was approximately $104M over that time (Deloitte and Touche 2012-09-28 p. 6).[29] The area under scrutiny by the audit, was the c. $8.3M for "housing-related activities through the Capital Facilities and Maintenance (CFM) program, which included $6.85M for housing maintenance; $1M for immediate housing needs; and, $450K for housing renovations under Canada's Economic Action Plan." One of the positive outcomes was the observation that AANDC, CMHC, and Attawapiskat First Nation, "worked in partnership at the regional level to determine allocations of housing funds for the Attawapiskat First Nation."
> 
> It was revealed in the audit[29] that Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) only conducted one physical condition review of Attawapiskat First Nation housing units during the period from April 1, 2005, to November 2011. The April 2009 review was conducted on a very small sample in a single 27-unit housing project built in 1990 and 1994. These units had "poor indoor air quality, high water table and overcrowding." CMHC did not share this report with Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development (Indian Affairs and Northern Development).[33] Recommendations included changes regarding loan eligibility, improvements in reporting, book-keeping, for example, CMHC Physical Condition Reviews must be shared with AANDC. It was noted that there is a chronic problem with collection of rent in arrears which impedes loan payments to CMHC and the challenges of evicting tenants [54] in this impoverished, remote northern community already plagued by overcrowding.* In it the auditors found "an average of 81 per cent of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60 per cent had no documentation of the reason for payment." Additionally, the letter delivered to Chief Spence stated the audit revealed "no evidence of due diligence on the part of Attawapiskat of funding provided by Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada for housing projects and Health Canada for health-related projects.*




I think maybe if the government was more diligent with where all this allocated money was being spent the settlement wouldn't be in such dire condition.


----------



## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You talk about business cases but how can we make a business case when we have been conducting our business in bad faith?



Could our very discussion be an example of the business case for bad faith bargaining throughout all these years? If the FN people do not have any true power/leverage over the GoC, isn’t the least cost option to provide the illusion of action to minimize the risk of conflict? It’s morbid and disturbing to say but it seems like continued bad faith bargaining is still cheaper than that $200 million for 2000 people... 

The US or China would not be having these difficulties with the GoC. The thinly veiled threat of one’s true power would be sufficient to accomplish real change.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jul 2019)

If I read this correctly, the City of Kamloops (pop. a little > 100,000) had just under $200M expenses in 2018 ($2,000 per resident).  $20M per 2000 would be $10,000 per person.  (Kamloops has a state-of-the-art water treatment system.)  Basic municipal infrastructure provision and maintenance should be achievable for less than $10K/person, even given the cost premiums associated with remote locations.  The main question is how much the provision of housing adds to costs.

If we persist with this 18th/19th century apartheid scheme in which some people pay rent to other people based on ancestry, problems will only magnify.  As progressives are often fond of saying, it's time to move on and adapt to the modern world; as progressives always insist, we should not have hereditary castes; as the Liberals and NDP declared during the last federal election, we should have exactly one class of citizenship.


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jul 2019)

>Maybe step 1 should be giving property on reserves over to the people living on them.

One of the flaws of the reserve system is that the people generally (some? many? most?) can't own land as individuals.  That limits their ability to build up equity, or to secure loans.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2019)

Some of the bands have opted for private ownership, much opposed by many bands. To much power is concentrated in the various power structures, which almost everyone has a dog in the fight and no good reason to change.


----------



## FSTO (10 Jul 2019)

I was recently at my high school reunion and one of my classmates is a 60's scoop participant. She refuses to say she was a survivor because to her it was the best thing that ever happened. 
Anyway, she was adopted to loving parents and had a normal middle class SW Manitoba upbringing. She always knew her native family but it was so disfunctional that she rather stay in the world outside of the reserve. She is now married to a former US Marine, has a successful trucking business in Nebraska and fully reconnected with her native family.

Now the odd part. Her grandfather was able to retain title to 75 acres that adjoined the reserve (located near Grandview MB) and she has been given 7 acres. Her husband loves the region so they are going to build a house on the property and she is planning to run for Chief of the tribe. She wants to shake things up and feels that since she is independently wealthy she will be able to use the federal funding for the betterment of the entire tribe vice lining her own pocket.

As for the 60's scoop, she was approached by advocates to talk about her experience but her story did not fit the victim narrative and she was not going to lie so they parted company.


----------



## garb811 (11 Jul 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If I read this correctly, the City of Kamloops (pop. a little > 100,000) had just under $200M expenses in 2018 ($2,000 per resident).  $20M per 2000 would be $10,000 per person.  (Kamloops has a state-of-the-art water treatment system.)  Basic municipal infrastructure provision and maintenance should be achievable for less than $10K/person, even given the cost premiums associated with remote locations.  The main question is how much the provision of housing adds to costs.
> 
> If we persist with this 18th/19th century apartheid scheme in which some people pay rent to other people based on ancestry, problems will only magnify.  As progressives are often fond of saying, it's time to move on and adapt to the modern world; as progressives always insist, we should not have hereditary castes; as the Liberals and NDP declared during the last federal election, we should have exactly one class of citizenship.


And missing from the discussion is the fact that no major project in Canada is completed without there being extensive negotiations about funding splits between the various levels of government and the water treatment plant cited is a stellar example of that. It looks like the residents of Kamloops paid less than 50% of the cost directly, if this archived document is valid:


> The original BCF application included a cost estimate of $35.5 million for the major wastewater treatment upgrade initiated by the City of Kamloops. This request was modified to focus on the core components of the project, estimated at $21.3 million and reflecting a provincial-federal funding commitment of $14.2 million.


If Kamloops, at a population of 90,000 give or take, can't afford to build and/or upgrade critical infrastructure on its own, how do you think any community of 2,000 people is pulling that off without the vast majority of the funding coming from provincial and/or federal sources?

The reality is every community in Canada has its hand out at one time or another to get or maintain the basic services, it's the Canadian way...


----------



## Kat Stevens (11 Jul 2019)

I hope everyone understands that you can build a 47 jillion dollar state of the art purification system on any reserve. Building infrastructure is not the problem. it's acquiring, training, and retaining enough people who actually give a fuck about operating and maintaining those systems that matters. I've been to three reserves with perfectly adequate treatment systems in Manitoba to install purification and bottling systems as a stopgap measure because their government provided treatment plants have been allowed to rot.


----------



## Jed (11 Jul 2019)

Target Up said:
			
		

> I hope everyone understands that you can build a 47 jillion dollar state of the art purification system on any reserve. Building infrastructure is not the problem. it's acquiring, training, and retaining enough people who actually give a fuck about operating and maintaining those systems that matters. I've been to three reserves with perfectly adequate treatment systems in Manitoba to install purification and bottling systems as a stopgap measure because their government provided treatment plants have been allowed to rot.



And others have been mysteriously burnt to the ground.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jul 2019)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Maybe step 1 should be giving property on reserves over to the people living on them.
> 
> One of the flaws of the reserve system is that the people generally (some? many? most?) can't own land as individuals.  That limits their ability to build up equity, or to secure loans.



I assume you've had some experience with first nations that give you the confidence to suggest that as a viable option?


----------



## Jarnhamar (11 Jul 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I assume you've had some experience with first nations that give you the confidence to suggest that as a viable option?



Me? No not exactly. But I'm guessing that someone is going to take better care of something when they own it. Like a house or land. 

Some of what I'm reading indicates reserves leadership don't want members owning land because then they could choose to sell it to non-FN members. 

I guess that sorta makes sense, but then again you have guys like Chief Ron Giesbrecht of the Kwikwetlem First Nation.

Chief to about 120 members where he made a salary of $4800 as chief. Plus his salary of $80,000 as economic development officer and an $800,000 bonus for a land(?)deal he worked out with the government of BC. A deal his band members said they weren't consulted on (nor did they know about his 80K salary and 800K bonus).

I wouldn't want people owning land either. But I don't understand how the crown can technically own the reserves but then buy parts of it?


----------



## YZT580 (11 Jul 2019)

When Maggie started divesting HM government of council flats she did so by giving ownership to long-term residents.  People swore that the neighbourhoods would descend into anarchy.  They were wrong.  People do take pride in ownership.  Give a kid his first car and he'll drive it into the ground or run it dry of oil like as not.  When he has to pay for it, he'll be out there on sundays polishing it.  As for the water problem, I can buy an RO system capable of purifying the water for less than 800 dollars and install it within a couple of hours.  Filters are 120 a year.  There is no excuse for people to not have good water with 20 million a year to spend.  Someone is making large deposits towards their retirement fund IMHO>


----------



## Brad Sallows (11 Jul 2019)

>I assume you've had some experience with first nations that give you the confidence to suggest that as a viable option?

I stated a flaw that limits advancement; I'm not sure it has a solution acceptable by all concerned.

It is viable (as in, could be done): parcel out lots and grant title in fee simple.  Owner sells lot; does what he wishes with the money.  New owner does what he wishes with the lot.  Or, owner keeps lot and takes out a loan secured by the property; does what he wishes with the money.  Etc.

But then the (obvious) concerns: over time, transfer of ownership to people without reserve membership, accompanied by permanent migration of reserve members to wherever they saw greener pastures.  The question of whether all property owners should have a right to stand for elected office and vote in local elections.  All the usual things remarked upon as illiberal xenophobia in other contexts.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Jul 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> When Maggie started divesting HM government of council flats she did so by giving ownership to long-term residents.  People swore that the neighbourhoods would descend into anarchy.  They were wrong.  People do take pride in ownership.  Give a kid his first car and he'll drive it into the ground or run it dry of oil like as not.  When he has to pay for it, he'll be out there on sundays polishing it.  As for the water problem, I can buy an RO system capable of purifying the water for less than 800 dollars and install it within a couple of hours.  Filters are 120 a year.  There is no excuse for people to not have good water with 20 million a year to spend.  Someone is making large deposits towards their retirement fund IMHO>



UV water purifiers work with solar systems, that's what I am putting in my cabin. Still needs filters to strain organic material out.


----------



## QV (12 Jul 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> ... There is no excuse for people to not have good water with 20 million a year to spend.  Someone is making large deposits towards their retirement fund IMHO>



Well, Trudeau did make it easier for that to happen.  What a good idea!  :

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/first-nations-fiscal-accountability-dropped-after-liberals-cut-enforcement-measure-at-end-of-2015


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Jul 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> When Maggie started divesting HM government of council flats she did so by giving ownership to long-term residents.  People swore that the neighbourhoods would descend into anarchy.  They were wrong.  People do take pride in ownership.  Give a kid his first car and he'll drive it into the ground or run it dry of oil like as not.  When he has to pay for it, he'll be out there on sundays polishing it.  As for the water problem, I can buy an RO system capable of purifying the water for less than 800 dollars and install it within a couple of hours.  Filters are 120 a year.  There is no excuse for people to not have good water with 20 million a year to spend.  Someone is making large deposits towards their retirement fund IMHO>



From what I read, the issue is the lake they are drawing it from isn't suitable for the size of the town, really isn't clean. A long term solution is to run the collection out the the river (see https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/attawapiskat-water-quality-emergency-1.5204652).  Sounds like they also have issues with the sewage system being undersized, so it's the entire infrastructure from start to finish.

Giving them ownership of an undersized system that sounds like it was kludged in and not suited for purpose isn't really a fix. You need a proper water source with a sufficiently sized collection treatment system and the safe distribution system. Doesn't sound like they have any of those, nor the expertise to design, build, or operate one. This is the culmination of decades of neglect and piecemeal fixes, and what happens when you spend decades bandaiding things.

n RO system is just a microfilter so doesn't actually purify anything. UV systems are good, but you normally use chlorine or something else to make sure there is no contamination in the distribution end (but in lower levels). Some of the other reserves are drawing from water sources that have been massively contaminated by industrial pollution (approved by the Fed govt of the past) that needs special treatment, so it's a complicated issue and you need bespoke solutions tailored to the site and population.

Long term they need to give them the tools to be self sufficient, but the water and housing crises are going to cost billions to sort out after being left to fall apart for so long.  Think this would be a good opportunity for some of the successful bands to start pooling together their expertise (and maybe start some companies to be able to compete for the contracts).  There is enough work you could train and employ a whole generation on working on basic infrastructure projects on the reserves.  There is a lot of distrust in the fed govt (justified and understandable IMHO), so these kind of initiatives may be more successful.  There is something similar for the fire services, but it's ad hoc and limited by the very small resources they have access to to do outreach to other communities.


----------



## YZT580 (12 Jul 2019)

I may be being naive, but if DART can airlift, assemble and have a 60,000 litre potable water system in use within a day or two this really should not be a serious problem, even if the system is only temporary while a more permanent fix is installed.


----------



## Kat Stevens (12 Jul 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> UV water purifiers work with solar systems, that's what I am putting in my cabin. Still needs filters to strain organic material out.



UV sterilizes water, not purifies it. The problem with UV is that it's effectiveness degrades over time as lamp intensity drops and bio slime builds up on the quartz sleeve. UV is a barrier kill, not an all system kill. Any failure of the lamp contaminates everything downstream from the lamp. If I were drawing from a surface water source, I'd be looking at chlorine injection with a carbon filter farther downstream to neutralize it after it's done it's job.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (12 Jul 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> I may be being naive, but if DART can airlift, assemble and have a 60,000 litre potable water system in use within a day or two this really should not be a serious problem, even if the system is only temporary while a more permanent fix is installed.



How far does that 60,000 litres of water go?

To quote from a report about water useage at FOBs, the WHO considers 50 litres per person per day the "minimum" sustainment requirement (that to keep someone alive and healthy) in the "developing world" (those places described by someone as "******* countries").


> World Health Organization
> The World Health Organization (WHO) has also developed planning factors for water use. The availability of clean potable water is a major concern in the developing world, and WHO has dedicated much effort to determining minimal sustainment requirements. WHO guidelines consider many options, and the availability of water weighs heavily on the usage. However, they recommend 50 liters per capita-day (13.2 gpcd) as a basic human right (Gleick 1996). This would meet the minimal needs of sustainment based on their analysis. This is very close to 13 gpcd as recommended by CASCOM.



So if we take that 50 litres as an acceptable goal for the residents of a reserve to meet the standard of someone living in a mud and grass hut then that ROWPU would have to pump out 77,500 litres of potable water to meet the needs of the 1550 persons living on the Attawapiskat First Nation.  But there are limitations on what that 77,500 litres would provide.  If we would like them to have the luxurious standards that someone (say like a soldier on ops in a FOB) in a more advantageous situation receives, then the 13.2 gallons (US measure) would have to be increased to approx. 34 gallons (the figure the US Army uses for planning purposes) so that one could get a shower twice a week and have a small load of laundry done once a week; of course sanitation needs would have to be centralized latrines,  and food preparation and hygiene (showers, laundry, etc) would also need to be centralized.


----------



## YZT580 (12 Jul 2019)

Which is why I said a temporary fix.  77,000 litres is easily covered by 60,000 times 2.  Beats boiling and in the long run is cheaper than airlift.  You need to think of the requirement in the same manner as if you were responding to a disaster.  First requirement of any group is clean water, the rest comes later.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (13 Jul 2019)

Target Up said:
			
		

> UV sterilizes water, not purifies it. The problem with UV is that it's effectiveness degrades over time as lamp intensity drops and bio slime builds up on the quartz sleeve. UV is a barrier kill, not an all system kill. Any failure of the lamp contaminates everything downstream from the lamp. If I were drawing from a surface water source, I'd be looking at chlorine injection with a carbon filter farther downstream to neutralize it after it's done it's job.



Running on solar with a gravity fed system in a cabin limits options. The nice thing about a filtered and UV system is you can fly the stuff in, train the locals to look after it and let them take some responsibility for it.

I shook my head at one BC Reserve, they complained they had no fire department. Yet I knew they were getting significant funds for the Oil and Gas companies to buy equipment. So I suggested setting up a volunteer one, they gave me the evil eye. The Oil and Gas companies would have fallen over themselves to help equip such a department, even if it starts small with a couple of large pickup trucks. Sadly what is missing in many reserves is a desire to help themselves. That is changing, but a lot slower than it should.


----------



## ModlrMike (14 Feb 2020)

Maybe instead of traipsing around the world he should be home dealing with what's happening out west. Something prime ministerial perhaps?


----------



## Altair (14 Feb 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> And now our glorious leader has stated he will not step in, in any way with current wave of protests against the coastal gas link pipeline. So much for national leadership, guess the rule of law dies in our country.


many leaders are not wanting to touch this. 

In Ontario this is the job for the OPP,  and they aren't moving.


----------



## mariomike (14 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> In Ontario this is the job for the OPP,  and they aren't moving.



According to Metro Toronto Police, there was a blockade at Yonge and Dundas during the evening commute. 



> https://twitter.com/TPSOperations/status/1228458948384169984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
> 
> - information that demo is regarding 'Solidarity w. Wet'suwet'en'
> - group is going to protest at the intersection of Yonge/Dundas


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> many leaders are not wanting to touch this.
> 
> In Ontario this is the job for the OPP,  and they aren't moving.


Might be all the bonfires the protestors are starting then claiming they're sacred fires. OPP probably doesn't want to deal with destroying a religious and cultural symbol on camera.   Pretty clever of the protestors when you think of it.


----------



## Haggis (15 Feb 2020)

Regarding the blockades, the PM stated that "We are not a country where politicians can order the police to do something,...".  My, how times have changed since he gave an implied order to the RCMP to charge VADM (retd) Norman.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> In Ontario this is the job for the OPP,  and they aren't moving.


In fact, Ontario's Indigenous affairs minister says _the feds_ should be sitting down & talking to the protesters ASAP.  

I haven't seen media ask him or the Premier why the OPP haven't gone in yet, but even with a Team Blue government, I _suspect_ Ontario & the OPP may be thinking carefully given previous events.


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Feb 2020)

Are railways not the jurisdiction of the CP Police and RCMP as they're federal? OPP would be responsible for highway blockades.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I haven't seen media ask him or the Premier why the OPP haven't gone in yet, but even with a Team Blue government, I _suspect_ Ontario & the OPP may be thinking carefully given previous events.





> National Post
> 
> 14 Feb., 2020
> 
> ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are railways not the jurisdiction of the CP Police and RCMP as they're federal? OPP would be responsible for highway blockades.



I have been asking the same question.  CN and CP Railway Police have jurisdiction within 500m of railroad property, so why aren't the railway police taking the lead on this with significant OPP support?

What's CN's angle in all of this?  My take is CN doesn't want a pipeline built as that will take away business from their railroad.


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2020)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I have been asking the same question.  CN and CP Railway Police have jurisdiction within 500m of railroad property, so why aren't the railway police taking the lead on this with significant OPP support?
> 
> What's CN's angle in all of this?  My take is CN doesn't want a pipeline built as that will take away business from their railroad.



You may be on to something.  

CN police threatened to arrest a journalist for trespassing while letting protesters stay there, weird world.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/watch-police-officer-threatens-to-arrest-journalist-covering-anti-pipeline-blockade/

But I doubt CN is happy about losing the amount of money they are losing daily because of these protests.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> But I doubt CN is happy about losing the amount of money they are losing daily because of these protests.



Probably not. Considering how quickly they settled the 8-day strike in late November last year.

CNR Strike 2019  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/131528.0
2 pages.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Feb 2020)

Ahh... if only the ghost of Sir Percy Girouard was around.

(Google him;  I'll wait.  He did OK running railroads... for an RMC guy  ;D )


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Ahh... if only the ghost of Sir Percy Girouard was around.
> 
> (Google him;  I'll wait.  He did OK running railroads... for an RMC guy  ;D )



An amazing Canadian,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Girouard


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2020)

>"We are not a country where politicians can order the police to do something,...". 

All this buck-passing is degrading the images of the politicians or police.  Police have powers of arrest without the say-so of politicians.  People expect to see laws enforced, without the fancy decoration of court orders and other declarations.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are railways not the jurisdiction of the CP Police and RCMP as they're federal? OPP would be responsible for highway blockades.


If that's the case, I can see them being quite pleased to be out of it.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

In Ontario,



> Despite Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) delivering an injunction obtained by CN to protesters at the Tyendinaga site over the weekend, no action has been taken to step in and arrest the protesters.
> 
> On Thursday, OPP East Region spokesperson Bill Dickson said there were no imminent plans for arrests.
> 
> ...



In Toronto,



> Protesters in Toronto disrupted rail traffic in the northwest end of the city to show support for the Wet’suwet’en First Nation in northern British Columbia.
> 
> The group met in Dovercourt Park on Saturday morning and marched north to the tracks near Dupont Street and Bartlett Avenue.
> 
> ...


----------



## Remius (15 Feb 2020)

I can’t remember who brought up the point but the example used was “what if gun owners blocked trains to stop gun legislation?”  I agree that it would be over in a matter of hours.


----------



## Brad Sallows (15 Feb 2020)

I doubt that it will, though, because there are potentially too many firearm owners for government to intervene without declaring a public order emergency.  Firearms owners should be paying attention, taking notes, and counting heads.   For the sake of short-term political benefit, governments of the day are setting a new long-term standard: holding the economy hostage will be permitted.  Protests are most effective (economy of effort) at points of pressure: railroads, ports, airports, and the assorted major traffic defiles (bridges, tunnels, major intersections).  A guess: if firearms owners demonstrate that they understand what is happening right now and can muster a much larger protest base, governments will do the smart thing and not poke the nest in the first place.

Or, governments can restore public order now and deliver the message that they can and will do so in future.


----------



## brihard (15 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Are railways not the jurisdiction of the CP Police and RCMP as they're federal? OPP would be responsible for highway blockades.



CN, CP, and Via Rail each have their own police services that enforce the Railway Act and other statutes (including criminal code) on their property. That said, to the best of my knowledge they aren't at all equipped for a public order situation. Actually enforcement of injunctions, clearing blockades etc would be the responsibility of the police of jurisdiction, which defaults to either the provincial police, or municipal if it's within the boundaries of a municipality. Land being owned by federal agencies or crown corporations doesn't default it to being an RCMP problem. Even Parliament Hill is being transitioned to Ottawa Police's responsibility for actually responding to crimes, and things like embassies and such that are an RCMP _protective_ responsibility will still go to the local police of jurisdiction for straight criminal matters. if there's not a National Security / Vienna Convention nexus.

So- the blockade in Ontario is an OPP problem.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2020)

Since discussion's zeroing in on the technical/jurisdictional bits of the current protests, moved those bits here.

Friendly reminder that the same rules apply here as elsewhere in the Canadian Politics threads.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2020)

As much as it pisses me off that the protestors are being left alone to disrupt transport and travel I can empathize with the OPP for not wanting to get involved. The fact that they're enforcing the law is moot because they'll be painted as the badguys regardless. Will the government have their back if things go pear shape? Doubt it. Trudeau already distanced himself with the police by saying the government doesn't tell the police what to do and how to do it.


----------



## Sub_Guy (15 Feb 2020)

Didn’t the government influence RCMP and their pursuit of two white guys last summer?

Or did the military just show up?  Surely there were a few high level conversations that happened behind closed doors.


----------



## brihard (15 Feb 2020)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Didn’t the government influence RCMP and their pursuit of two white guys last summer?
> 
> Or did the military just show up?  Surely there were a few high level conversations that happened behind closed doors.



Rather different set of circumstances when the military is being asked to support with a specific *capability*. That wasn’t political direction of law enforcement.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

The MacMillan Yard is the 2nd largest rail classification yard in Canada,



> TORONTO, ON- FEBRUARY 15 2020.Shut Down Canada protesters head to the rail lines to occupy the Macmillan Yard in Vaughan, Ontario in solidarity with Wet'suwet'en land defenders. All trains going west to Hamilton, London, New York and Michigan are now blocked as of 10 a.m. on Saturday.
> 
> The protesters gathered at Bloor and Spadina Sts. and took the subway north to Pioneer Village subway station, then proceeded to Macmillan Yard.



Vaughan, ON would be York Regional Police.

Protesters took the subway up from Bloor and Spadina.

GO trains were also affected.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2020)

> TORONTO, ON- FEBRUARY 15 2020.Shut Down Canada protesters head to the rail lines to occupy the Macmillan Yard in Vaughan, Ontario in solidarity with Wet'suwet'en land defenders. All trains going west to Hamilton, London, New York and Michigan are now blocked as of 10 a.m. on Saturday.
> 
> The protesters gathered at Bloor and Spadina Sts. and took the subway north to Pioneer Village subway station, then proceeded to Macmillan Yard.



Yes, shut it all down. In solidarity with land and water defenders. Nothing comes in and out of the GTA  ;D


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Nothing comes in and out of the GTA  ;D



Are you obsessed with the GTA?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Feb 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> I can’t remember who brought up the point but the example used was “what if gun owners blocked trains to stop gun legislation?”  I agree that it would be over in a matter of hours.



Arresting a bunch of older whites would mean extra PC brownie points for a "Woke politician" People forget that the stuff our PM has apoligized for was all done legally and was the PC thought for the day.


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Feb 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are you obsessed with the GTA?



Not too ****ing impressed with the politician all ya'all are responsible for voting in lol 

But also, I'm supporting land defenders. Getting two birds stone at once.


----------



## mariomike (15 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Nothing comes in and out of the GTA  ;D





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not too ****ing impressed with the politician all ya'all are responsible for voting in lol



Does this have anything to do with Gun Politics?

You keep going on about the GTA. 

Do you understand the GTA is 25 incorporated municipalities, and five Regions? 

Each have separate governments.


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Feb 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Do you understand the GTA is 25 incorporated municipalities, and five Regions?
> 
> Each have separate governments.



But they're equally clueless.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You keep going on about the GTA.


I imagine that must be frustrating.


----------



## mariomike (16 Feb 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> But they're equally clueless.



I'll take that over this,



> Winnipeg Sun
> 
> Good reason Winnipeg considered most unsafe city in Canada - because it is
> 
> https://winnipegsun.com/2017/08/22/good-reason-winnipeg-considered-most-unsafe-city-in-canada---because-it-is/wcm/965ad8fe-a78d-4767-9077-cc765263a237


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I'll take that over this,



Who's responsible for the numbers making Winnipeg so unsafe? Is it all random or is there a pattern somewhere?


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Feb 2020)

Meth.


----------



## medicineman (16 Feb 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Meth.



Yup...

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Feb 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Meth.



Maybe the protests will slow down the amount of meth coming in to Winnipeg.


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Feb 2020)

Interesting, and ironic in the case of Eby 

Les Leyne: Remarkable organizing prowess fuels protests

The motives and validity of the protest shutdowns are up for debate, but the organizational prowess is beyond dispute. It’s a remarkable achievement to co-ordinate thousands of people in massive civil disobedience across Canada.

And it confirms what’s already obvious — the B.C. and federal governments are dealing with something significant and ongoing.

Two years ago, there was a brief glimpse of the strategic thinking that’s going into the demonstrations. It was a small political story that passed quickly, but this week suggests the concepts that came to light then are still in play.

It was about “the hive.”

The reference was in a planning document that leaked after Environment Minister George Heyman attended a meeting at a Bowen Island retreat with some people who were dedicated to blocking the Kinder Morgan oil pipeline proposal.

The opposition Liberals landed on the outline and accused Heyman of consorting with activists and agitators.

He said he was just doing his job, meeting everyone. The rest of the cabinet just rolled their eyes and laughed off the opposition’s dark suspicions.

But nobody’s laughing today. Because the hive looks to be alive and well, and buzzing around the NDP government’s head.

It was described at the time as a lift-off for “ongoing coordination of organizational support for mass action.” The outline described a coalition of grassroots groups that would support and share information about mass, creative and non-violent direct actions.

“The Hive brings resources, money, action experience and technical know-how, capacity and co-ordination experience.”

It described regular meetings where decisions are made by consensus, but groups are free to act independently as their work requires.

Flowing from that was “the Swarm.” It brings energy, creative, hard-hitting plans and momentum,” said the outline.

It gave various examples of how an opportunity for mass action might be identified and how sponsors of specific protest actions could tap into the hive and get support to make it a success.

“This group is about inspiring and supporting action on a mass scale … This group is an organizing structure, not a brand. We will not have a brand or presence in public beyond what is necessary to achieve our goals.”

It committed to non-violent direct action and avoid harm to individuals and “unnecessary damage to property.”

It also recommended digital security protocols to maintain a low profile — discuss tactics in person wherever possible, prevent documents from being publicly viewable, use encrypted message apps and ensure phone calls are private.

It’s not known if the specific hive referred to is still functional.

The Kinder Morgan pipeline project collapsed before mass protests were called.

But the outline is a perfect model for how to accomplish exactly what unfolded this week — coordinated, mass action on a grand scale.

It doesn’t just happen spontaneously. It needs a lot of careful thinking, and big pool of volunteers.

Just So You Know: Another document from even further back came to light this week. It is much more obviously in play today and it’s more than a little ironic.

A message circulating widely refers to how “legal observers” were trained by the protesters to monitor the response of police and authorities to the disruptions.

The co-author of the handbook being used?

It was David Eby, now B.C.’s attorney general, who wrote it for protesters active during the 2010 Vancouver-Whistler Olympics while he was with the B.C. Civil Liberties Association.

The same Eby whose Vancouver-Point Grey constituency office was occupied this week by protesters who traumatized office staff.

Legal observers following the Eby handbook were on hand at the legislature blockades.

He described their role in the guide as “calm, independent objective witnesses to the activities of security forces.”

They are considered separate from protesters and their main job is to collect evidence that protesters later pursuing complaints against police might use.

He recommended against providing legal advice, interfering, or speaking to the media.

The tactics are bewildering. How antagonizing tens of thousands of taxpayers by shutting down Metro Vancouver transportation links constitutes a win is hard to figure.

But demonstrators are following a comprehensive and thorough game plan as they raise the stakes.
https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/columnists/les-leyne-remarkable-organizing-prowess-fuels-protests-1.24077299


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## Good2Golf (16 Feb 2020)

...and yet those in The Hive and close to them are no doubt also clamoring over the high gasoline prices and increasing energy costs. :

*sniff, sniff*

...not...


----------



## FSTO (16 Feb 2020)

I wonder how much involvement the Internet Research Agency has in all of this?  

Because they must be rubbing their hands in glee at how easy it is to grind Canada's economy to a halt. Especially with the vast amounts of useful idiots plodding about our country.


----------



## mariomike (16 Feb 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> how easy it is to grind Canada's economy to a halt.



Protestors have already targeted MacMillan Yard. If they also target Symington Yard, that will take out the two largest rail classification yards in Canada.


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Feb 2020)

If I were in charge I'd roll a locomotive up to 200 yds of the protest line, and start making a very big show of bolting up cow catchers.


----------



## Cloud Cover (16 Feb 2020)

Rock and a hard place. Any state action to forcibly remove them transforms dissidents engaging in anarchy for any cause into victims. And that we don’t need....


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Feb 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> ... they must be rubbing their hands in glee at how easy it is to grind Canada's economy to a halt ...


A former CAF officer wrote about exactly how vulnerable Canada's economy is to such actions -- as well as how to head such things off at the pass -- in 2013 (links to PDF).  All I'll say is that it's interesting reading, with a quite few controversial ideas.


			
				CloudCover said:
			
		

> Rock and a hard place. Any state action to forcibly remove them transforms dissidents engaging in anarchy for any cause into victims. And that we don’t need....


 :nod:


----------



## mariomike (16 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A former CAF officer wrote about exactly how vulnerable Canada's economy is to such actions -- as well as how to head such things off at the pass -- in 2013 (links to PDF).  All I'll say is that it's interesting reading, with a quite few controversial ideas. :nod:





> Although these revenues are significant, the true value of Canada’s railway freight systems lies in its role as the indispensable economic enabler, linking national producers to domestic and foreign buyers.


----------



## YZT580 (16 Feb 2020)

Perhaps if our government had encouraged nationalism i.e. pride in our country of Canada instead of catering to multi-nationalism and pandering to complainers we would be hearing people speaking out loudly against this type of action.  This is not a rant against multi-nationalism by the way but an encouragement for nationalism.  People need to learn to take pride in Canada and not look back at the past.  The same concept applies to first nations.  They need to believe that they are Canadians with a rich heritage and not (insert tribe) and go from there.  Sadly, the police are doing the right thing.  But only because Canadians won't stand with them and say enough.  We are allowing ourselves to be bullied by what is, when all is said and done, a small minority of people with an axe to grind.


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## Remius (17 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Perhaps if our government had encouraged nationalism i.e. pride in our country of Canada instead of catering to multi-nationalism and pandering to complainers we would be hearing people speaking out loudly against this type of action.  This is not a rant against multi-nationalism by the way but an encouragement for nationalism.  People need to learn to take pride in Canada and not look back at the past.  The same concept applies to first nations.  They need to believe that they are Canadians with a rich heritage and not (insert tribe) and go from there.  Sadly, the police are doing the right thing.  But only because Canadians won't stand with them and say enough.  We are allowing ourselves to be bullied by what is, when all is said and done, a small minority of people with an axe to grind.



Depends on what you define as nationalism. As well as how you define "multinationalism".

I would argue that the First Nations are practising the form of nationalism (albeit their own nationalism) I think you are trying to explain.  Did they ever define themselves or believe themselves as Canadian first?  Or was that definition imposed on them?  Many Quebecers and Newfoundlanders have the same mentality.  I think they absolutely believe they have a rich heritage, but many I suspect they don't see it in a Canadian context as much as they see it as a First Nations context.  

If we adopt a nationalist approach, would that not run counter to broker deals and relationships with other nations and get oil to tidewater? 

I do however agree with your last statement about being bullied.


----------



## brihard (17 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Perhaps if our government had encouraged nationalism i.e. pride in our country of Canada instead of catering to multi-nationalism and pandering to complainers we would be hearing people speaking out loudly against this type of action.  This is not a rant against multi-nationalism by the way but an encouragement for nationalism.  People need to learn to take pride in Canada and not look back at the past.  The same concept applies to first nations.  They need to believe that they are Canadians with a rich heritage and not (insert tribe) and go from there.  Sadly, the police are doing the right thing.  But only because Canadians won't stand with them and say enough.  We are allowing ourselves to be bullied by what is, when all is said and done, a small minority of people with an axe to grind.



'Patriotism' probably fits what you're saying better than 'nationalism'. The latter has an exclusionary self-interest element that is the exact opposite of what we want to achieve with FNs. 

The relationship between Canada and many of the first nations is, in a literal legal sense, a nation-to-nation relationship. In a lot of cases there isn't much of a Canadian identity there to nurture, and little for them to feel patriotic about. God knows we've given them little reason to over the last century. A couple decades of economic development (when it suits our own interests, of course) does not wave away many more decades of exploitation and abuse. We have a ton to work on.

The thing is, if 99% of Canadians were loudly standing up and voicing their opposition to thee protests, that would be a *political* matter, but it still wouldn't much change the calculus of the crisis. If it led to a forceful resolution, it would immediately - and pretty accurately - get chalked up as just more oppression.

Flip side to that, clearly the blockage of critical economic infrastructure is not something that can stand. Something's gotta give here. Negotiation may not achieve that. It looks pretty likely at this point that Coastal Gas Link's pipeline is gonna go into the ground, of course in accordance with the agreement with the majority of FNs impacted, including most of the Wet'sut'wen. The Mohawks are saying they won't end the blockade til RCMP are off Wet'sut'wen land; it doesn't seem likely that that can happen any time soon without this going back to square one.

So yeah, I don't know where that leaves us, and I don't envy those who make the decisions. I hope this can all get settled without anyone getting hurt.


----------



## YZT580 (17 Feb 2020)

Thank you.  Patriotism is the right word but the time for people to stand up and say I am Canadian was a long time ago.  The attitude needs to have been in place BEFORE.  The multi-national concept that Pierre encouraged is counter-productive.  It encourages a me-first attitude and with the high rate of immigration we need to start encouraging the change in attitude now.  Immigration is needed but those who come must come with the notion that they have left their old country behind and are now part of a new nation called Canada and that requires different loyalties.  That is one reason why some countries do not allow dual citizenship.  First nations are a prime example of dual citizenship at its worst.  They have been walled off from Canada by treaty and by history and never allowed to join in as equal citizens.  They are always Canadian AND.  But how to change it, I have no idea.  But change it we must or someone is going to get hurt and all of us are going to be less well off as a result and I am not thinking of finances but well off as a people.


----------



## Remius (17 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Thank you.  Patriotism is the right word but the time for people to stand up and say I am Canadian was a long time ago.  The attitude needs to have been in place BEFORE.  The multi-national concept that Pierre encouraged is counter-productive.  It encourages a me-first attitude and with the high rate of immigration we need to start encouraging the change in attitude now.  Immigration is needed but those who come must come with the notion that they have left their old country behind and are now part of a new nation called Canada and that requires different loyalties.  That is one reason why some countries do not allow dual citizenship.  First nations are a prime example of dual citizenship at its worst.  They have been walled off from Canada by treaty and by history and never allowed to join in as equal citizens.  They are always Canadian AND.  But how to change it, I have no idea.  But change it we must or someone is going to get hurt and all of us are going to be less well off as a result and I am not thinking of finances but well off as a people.



One can still be patriotic and hold true to their heritage.  Canada has the same issues any "New world" country has.  Go to Australia, New Zealand, the US and you see the same phenomenon.  All of those countries have had waves of immigrants come in and help shape the country for what it is.  I think the issue is that the hyphen before or after "Canadian" is more a reference to culture than to citizenship.  Family and culture are intertwined.  A lot of people will be far more loyal to their family than to their country.  

It isn't something they just can easily drop and forget.

Canada tried to "canadianize" first nations before.  It didn't go so well and a lot of today's issues are a result of those attempts.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Feb 2020)

The thing is first nations can't even agree on what land belongs to who. They're constantly fighting among themselves about borders and rights.  I'm pretty sure the Wet'suwet'en land claims are being claimed by another first nation who says it's actually their land.

600 nations arguing about borders when a hell of a lot of money in the form of natural resources are at stake isn't going to end well. Surely the Canadian settler government won't be the deciding factor on what belongs to who.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The thing is first nations can't even agree on what land belongs to who. They're constantly fighting among themselves about borders and rights.  I'm pretty sure the Wet'suwet'en land claims are being claimed by another first nation who says it's actually their land.
> 
> 600 nations arguing about borders when a hell of a lot of money in the form of natural resources are at stake isn't going to end well. Surely the Canadian settler government won't be the deciding factor on what belongs to who.



So, kind of like Europe then, right?


----------



## dapaterson (17 Feb 2020)

And now a border crossing.  Protesters are blocking access to the Thousand Islands bridge near Kingston, Ontario.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/protesters-block-access-road-to-thousand-islands-bridge-opp-1.4815369


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## mariomike (17 Feb 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And now a border crossing.  Protesters are blocking access to the Thousand Islands bridge near Kingston, Ontario.



Also the International Bridge at Niagara Falls.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/anti-pipeline-protesters-block-international-bridge-in-niagara-falls-in-support-of-wet-suwet-en-1.4814447


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Feb 2020)

A FB post I did:

130% of BC is claimed, Unless your planning a 1300km HDD drill your going to cross them. What bugs me is none of these "warriors" have bothered to read any of the Environmental Assessment report, where they would find that the company changed the route numerous times. Also telling is that the West Moberly First Nations agreed to this pipeline. I can tell you from personal experience that band is afraid of no one and will fight tooth and nail over something they disagree with. So you have one of the most likley bands to go court (see Site C) and they want this pipeline. Also ask the Haisla what it means to their future and the number of marine jobs their people will get. In fact if this project goes ahead, it is likley we will see at least 1-2 Haisla member as Ships Pilots within 20 years. Hope I am around to see such a thing.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Feb 2020)

Question here - who's cutting the cheques of the protestors? How do they manage to survive?


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Feb 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And now a border crossing.  Protesters are blocking access to the Thousand Islands bridge near Kingston, Ontario.
> 
> https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/protesters-block-access-road-to-thousand-islands-bridge-opp-1.4815369


Done ...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/thousand-islands-bridge-canada-us-protests-1.5466440


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Feb 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Question here - who's cutting the cheques of the protestors? How do they manage to survive?



The taxpayer, one way or another, as per SOP.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2020)

Some funny videos of conversations with protestors out there. 
Not quite sure what's in the pipes, where it comes from or where it's going but they sure are standing in solidarity.


----------



## Cloud Cover (19 Feb 2020)

This whole thing has become a farce. The blockade at the CGL site that started all this came down 4 days ago and work has resumed.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (19 Feb 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> This whole thing has become a farce. The blockade at the CGL site that started all this came down 4 days ago and work has resumed.



That is interesting. Is there any media reporting this development, or is this being kept quiet in the whole "never waste a crisis" line of thinking?


----------



## Cloud Cover (19 Feb 2020)

Yes: https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/rcmp-remove-exclusion-zone-from-wet-suwet-en-territory-1.4808553

CGL (mostly FN workers from WetSuweten) moved back in almost immediately after the RCMP exclusion zone was released.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2020)

It's almost like there is a cadre of FN members in places of power who benefit from chaos, turmoil, continuing victim-hood and not seeing FN members at large getting jobs and being self-sufficient.


----------



## Remius (20 Feb 2020)

Some movement on the Government's part.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-withdraw-bc-1.5469669


----------



## YZT580 (20 Feb 2020)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wet-suwet-en-coastal-gas-link-pipeline-lng-1.5469401

And the other side of the protests.  There are a lot of FN folks who simply don't want the attention: they want the jobs and prosperity that go with the pipeline and refinery.  It is the comments about the nature of the protesters that I find most interesting. Here is just one clipped from the article "They're very pugnacious and overbearing. They're professional protesters,".  

The chiefs have attached a condition of the RCMP leaving.  Sounds fair provided the road remains open and that was a reasonable condition to attach to the agreement.  The response of the hereditary chiefs will tell whether they are actually interested in a solution or simply want to stop progress so they can maintain control of their bands. It appears that there is a lot of band politics.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The chiefs have attached a condition of the RCMP leaving.  Sounds fair provided the road remains open and that was a reasonable condition to attach to the agreement.  The response of the hereditary chiefs will tell whether they are actually interested in a solution or simply want to stop progress so they can maintain control of their bands. It appears that there is a lot of band politics.



This is not fair... it's a thinly veiled opportunity to pull a kind of 'Louis Riel' moment. 

You do no one any favours by removing the federal rule of law from those on the reserves as the opportunity for intimidation and other 'illegal influences' blossoms...


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Feb 2020)

Whatever Canada's duties are to its citizens, those duties are owed equally to those who hold some sort of aboriginal status.  Their interests are not necessarily well-served by activists who claim to act in those interests.


----------



## CountDC (20 Feb 2020)

what a mess.   Elected representatives of the communities with a lot of support from their members agreed to the pipelines while a few hereditary chiefs protest.  Seems to me that the real issue is those few are more interested in trying to regain control of the tribe and it's money rather than help their people.  

In BC there are several FN disputes over land stewardship as several groups claim rights to the same lands found to be valuable areas.


----------



## Rifleman62 (20 Feb 2020)

https://www.jlsreport.com/2020/02/16/wolves-in-fancy-blankets  _Letters to Editor _

*Wolves in Fancy Blankets* - 16 Feb 20

I see all these posts supporting a few OW Hereditary Chiefs but what I don’t see is the Wetsuweten people speaking up about how this office operates. I get it though, I live on Westbank First Nation (as I do), I see exactly how opportunities are disbursed based on whether you are “one of them” or “one of us”. Luckily, I also lived up in Houston BC and know first hand about the motives of some of the OW Hereditary Chiefs.

 My husband is the late Larry Tiljoe, a member of the Witset Band, Gilseyhu Clan and Unistoten “family” line. The Tiljoe family have lived and worked, off reserve, in the Houston area their entire lives. Larry’s father is Russell Tiljoe, Russell’s father was Alex Tiljoe, the late Chief Namox. Larry’s mother Elsie, is the granddaughter of Christine Holland, the late Chief Knedebeas. Elsie and Larry both hold trapline rights along the pipeline within Knedebeas territory and the family has a long standing and significant connection to the land in and around Houston and the Knedebeas territories.

In 1993, we started a silviculture business, Nadina Mountain Contracting, located within the Morice Forest District. Our goal was to become a sustainable First Nation contractor who harvested, replanted and rejuvenated the areas we harvested. We managed our contracts and ensured their successful completion and established solid working relationships with local forestry industry key players. We were employing people from Moricetown to Burns Lake, both Native and non-Native. We were employed full time managing the land in forest health, building our business. Then the Office of the Wetsuweten of the Hereditary Chiefs came along.

 The OW, situated an hour east of Houston, took over ALL the forest related activities earmarked as First Nations. We were forced us to work under the OW for contracts within our own forests; the OW took a portion of the contract value for the “service”. The OW’s lack of knowledge in forest health and neglect in their financial responsibilities continually caused our business to suffer hardship which rippled to our banker, our employees, and our suppliers. Logging has been acceptable to the OW within their territory and during our time under the OW we noticed the work was cornered by individual OW hereditary chiefs like Chief Kloun Khun – Alphose Gagnon, Chief Knedebeas – Warner William, and Chief ? Adam Gagnon.  They established their own companies and or employed down their own family lines. The OW chiefs negotiated contracts including the values and awarded contracts to themselves. The OW wanted ALL the work for the OW. We were forced out of our own forest district to the forest district an hour east of Houston.

 In the end the OW took their own member’s livelihood, pushed him out of his own territory, blocked access to his trapline and forced him into bankruptcy. His final words to them warned that their greed would become cancerous.

 I personally question the integrity of some of the chiefs, especially the 3 are mentioned above. I wonder if it’s the same case with CGL; that the OW wants to control ALL the negotiations, ALL the monies, ALL the contracts and ALL benefits and administer it back to the Bands in the territory? As it stands the individual bands will receive the monies and benefits and not the OW. If they can’t have it ALL then NO one will have anything.

 Except the Province of BC in 2019 gave the OW over $1.1 million, 2019 GoFundMe organized by Jennifer Wickham raised $239,507 for beneficiary, Cody Thomas Merriman and 2020 GoFundMe organized by France Maybe has raised $171,279 YTD for beneficiary, Molly Wickham. The Unistoten GoFundMe Legal fund to benefit Tse Wedi Eltlh raised $385,000 and on and on. The OW protest family has plenty of economic benefit, it’s a multi million dollar business.  The Wetsuweten are still left with nothing.

 The cause is honourable, we need to protect the planet and I respect people’s right protest but when I see and hear millions of dollars raised to individuals under fake names, images showing “protesters” in $800.00 jackets driving brand new trucks, vans, snowmobiles with top of the line cell phones for live video broadcast, “protesters” with unlimited funds to forage for food at the local restuarants and stores, access to dry heated shelter and $500.00 honorariums paid to Chiefs to show up and protest, I can’t help but question what is really going on.

I’m curious does the OW have a plan to replace the economic loss to ALL the communites affected, if NO? or Is GoFundMe going to become the new way of living off the land for them as well?

Thank you for providing a place to share this and for what you do for the Wetsuweten, ALL the Wetsuweten.


_*About JLS*

JLS is temporarily on an altered course from its origins, we used to be a blog covering mostly Canadian stories, until the day came when we had to focus on protecting our back yard from outside intrusion. Its staggering how other peoples hate for oil can so badly destroy truth and fracture a First Nation, exploiting those who hate this country.

We love our country and we will take our community back.

Written by a local for the local people.

JLS – Dec 31st 2018

_


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Whatever Canada's duties are to its citizens, those duties are owed equally to those who hold some sort of aboriginal status.  Their interests are not necessarily well-served by activists who claim to act in those interests.



Most social justice warriors are less interested in the causes they purport to defend than that they are seen to be defending a cause, any cause, as long as it's one that will garner individual or collective publicity for them or their "advocacy group". Coupled with the "we know what's best for you" mindset, they often alienate those they claim to defend.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Feb 2020)

* A day after demanding the RCMP remove a mobile detachment along the route of the proposed pipeline, hereditary chiefs who oppose the project say it’s not good enough now that the Mounties have agreed.* 
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/02/20/federal-minister-pledges-to-meet-chiefs-in-b-c-over-natural-gas-pipeline/


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2020)

Tangent here

Property rights.

What would happen if the property rights that Canada recognizes under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were enacted into Canadian charter law? Wouldn't that not only appeal to "the settlers" but also the First Nations?  Wouldn't it clarify land claims if the members of the First Nations, jointly and severally, had the same clear title to their lands as the settlers desire?

I recognize that borders and jurisdiction would still be an issue but the basis of discussion would be uniform.

Each individual status native would hold title jointly with their band.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Feb 2020)

The Nisga treaty does give property rights to the members, most Band Councils oppose such concepts.


----------



## Haggis (20 Feb 2020)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> What would happen if the property rights that Canada recognizes under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights were enacted into Canadian charter law? Wouldn't that not only appeal to "the settlers" but also the First Nations?



Reply deleted because I was wrong.


----------



## garb811 (20 Feb 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Trudeau senior ensured that individual property rights were not enshrined in our constitution.  This is key to the governments assertion that the ownership of any property in Canada, particularly that property where the crown requires you to have a licence to own/operate (e.g. guns), is a privilege.


You've made the assertion that it was PET who kept property rights out a few times, yet never provide a source. So...here's the actual answer from the Fraser Institute:

Lacking constitutional protection, governments routinely trample property rights


> Back when Canadas premiers and then-Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau debated what to put into what later became the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, property rights were one possibility and on the table.
> 
> Trudeau had pushed for property rights as justice minister in 1968, again as prime minister in 1969, and in 1980 during constitutional talks. But property rights never made it into the final 1982 Charter *because Trudeau and Bill Bennett, then-Premier of British Columbia, were the lone advocates.*
> 
> ...


Lots of people to point that particular finger at, but PET isn't one of them.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (20 Feb 2020)

Back on topic:

I have a question for any lawyers in the crowd.

It seems to me that CN and CP Rail have really nothing to do with this CGL dispute, but are nonetheless being used as a hostage and racking up serious business losses in the process (along with lots of other businesses). Could those that block rail lines and those who counsel blocking rail lines find themselves at the wrong end of a civil suit for damages? Could they be successfully sued?


----------



## Cloud Cover (21 Feb 2020)

Trespass is a provincial offence, in some cases a federal offence and is also a civil action ( a tort). So in theory, yes.  There are complete defences to the civil action. The right to civil dissent does not usually trump private property rights.

Edit: I would also note that in order to obtain the injunctions ( which in this case are also civil injunctions)  the companies would have to establish that the harm being suffered resulting from the blockades is “ irreparable harm”. That type of harm seems self evident in this case and the costs and losses incurred are the measure of damages. 
Who gets sued? Who pays? How?  In what court? 
Ultimately, we can expect very little restitution in this matter.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Feb 2020)

The railways are on ROW granted by the Federal crown for the most part and regulated by the Crown. Now it would get messy where CN took over from BCR, but those rails are on a ROW issued originally by the government of BC, not sure who has ownership now?


----------



## Haggis (21 Feb 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> You've made the assertion that it was PET who kept property rights out a few times, yet never provide a source. So...here's the actual answer from the Fraser Institute:
> 
> Lacking constitutional protection, governments routinely trample property rights[/url]Lots of people to point that particular finger at, but PET isn't one of them.



Then, I stand corrected, apologize and retract my assertion.


----------



## Lumber (21 Feb 2020)

An oldy, but a goodie. 

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/rethinkingthereserve/week+problems+governance/280526/story.html


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A former CAF officer wrote about exactly how vulnerable Canada's economy is to such actions -- as well as how to head such things off at the pass -- in 2013 (links to PDF).  All I'll say is that it's interesting reading, with a quite few controversial ideas. :nod:


What this guy is quoted saying to the CBC ...


> ... Calls to send in the army, particularly at this stage, are "ludicrous," said Bland, who added he believes that kind of solution is "way beyond anything we need to do now, or in the future."
> 
> The military is — and should be — the federal response "of last resort," he said.
> 
> ...


... with a bit of interesting backstory on the current Indigenous affairs minister ...


> ... Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller recently raised the spectre of that two-and-a-half-month standoff near Montreal. Thirty years ago, Miller told the House of Commons, he was a young army reservist serving alongside "four Mohawk brothers." When the unit was ordered to Oka, the four Mohawk brothers left their unit.
> 
> "They were asked to make a difficult choice ... between the country that they would lay down their life for and their families. For them, the choice was clear," Miller said.
> 
> ...


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Feb 2020)

They talk like the CDS or MND can just send in the troops on a whim


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2020)

Haggis - here's something that you might be familiar with.

I don't know what the comparable Canadian cases might be but I "suspect" that our situation is not too dissimilar from that of the Brits.



> A female serial offender with 390 previous convictions and a man with 291 previous convictions were spared jail sentences last year (2019) , official figures have revealed.
> 
> The woman was given a sentence of one-day detention and the male offender was given an absolute discharge.





> In 2018 a woman with 376 previous convictions was given a conditional discharge, a man with 285 convictions was ordered to pay a fine and a man with 285 convictions was given a conditional discharge.



And one more thought - If there are privately funded Railway Police with Federal Powers, why aren't there privately funded Pipeline (or Powerline) Police with Federal Powers?



> in 2017 a woman with 366 previous convictions was given a one-day detention and a man with 284 convictions was ordered to pay compensation.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/02/20/offender-390-previous-convictions-spared-jail-prosecutions/

How do I tie this into the Civil Disobedience debate?

It seems to me that when the policing forces have more work than they can handle they opt for a quiet life - like any other rational sentient being.   What is the point of policing if you receive no support,  are constantly crlticized when you do it, and you still get to pick up your pay check if you don't?

It seems to me that we have created reactive forces more focused on Investigations after the fact than proactive forces focused on creating a secure, Policed environment before the fact.   And in my view, maintaining lines of communication, removing blockades is a clear Policing matter.

In the same sense that we used to police up our barracks, armouries, parade squares and ranges.  We removed that which was superfluous and unwanted and restored order.

Do we actually have Police forces any more (outside of the traffic control beat) or do we simply have an Investigative department for crimes?

My suspicion is that the Railway Police of old would not have countenanced the current situation.  Their methods might have been less than the modern world would tolerate but can we argue that the need for their intervention is any less now than it was?

Canadian Pacific Police Service



> Canadian Pacific Police Service are responsible for all aspects of railway security. They are duly appointed and armed federal police officers that gather their authority in Canada via the Railway Safety Act as well as other acts.[citation needed]
> 
> The Railway Safety Act is a federal act that allows for any federal railway to appoint officers as police constables. These police constables have all the powers of a regular police officer as it relates to the protection of property owned, possessed or administered by a railway company and the protection of persons and property on that property.[1] Railway police are unique in Canada as they are essentially a private company that employs sworn police officers. CPPS are "a fully authorized federal force, bound to uphold Canada's laws" and licensed to carry arms.[2]
> 
> The main duties of a railway police officer are to protect the public using the company facilities, the employees and its assets. This includes public education on trespassing, school awareness programs, investigating crimes against the railway, assist the local police services, issuing tickets and many other duties including security of property and buildings. CP Rail assigns individual officers large sections of railway tracks to patrol and conduct active enforcement and public safety initiatives.[citation needed]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_Police_Service

Canadian National Police Service



> In Canada, members are federally sworn in under section 44.1 of the Railway Safety Act granting powers as police constables and have the same powers of arrest as any police officer in Canada anywhere in Canada as 'Peace Officers' under Section 2 of the Criminal Code. Police constables are employed by Canadian National and are also considered public servants, sworn to the Crown to uphold the law and protect
> 
> The CN Police federal oath of office primarily directs their duties 'on and along' CN infrastructure, protecting properties owned and administered by CN. CN Police have additional provincial appointments which allow them to extend provincial enforcement such as the Highway Traffic Act outside the boundaries set under the Railway Safety Act of Canada.
> 
> Under section 26.1 of the Railway Safety Act, it is an offence for any person to "enter on land on which a line work is situated". Offenders can be dealt with in multiple ways such as being compelled to Federal Court by means of a promise to appear or can simply be issued a ticket through the relevant provincial Contravention Act and released. Maximum penalties for contravention of the act for any offence can be up to a $10,000 fine and imprisonment in the case of a private person. A company can also face up to a $200,000 fine for contravention of this act.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_National_Police_Service

Are the protesters private persons? Or are they agents of an organization (or organizations)?


And another thought, if there are privately funded Railway Police with federal powers why aren't there privately funded Pipeline (or Powerline) Police with federal powers?


----------



## Good2Golf (21 Feb 2020)

Recalling that CAF Aid to the Civil Power remains entirely conditional on a request from a Province, as effected through its Attorney General or Minister of Justice (depending on a Province’s judicial structure), to the CAF Chief of Defence Staff.

From the National Defence Act of Canada:


> NDA §277. Where a riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur, the attorney general of the province in which the place where the riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur is situated, on the initiative of the attorney general or on the receipt of notification from a judge of a superior, county or district court having jurisdiction in the place that the services of the Canadian Forces are required in aid of the civil power, may, by requisition in writing addressed to the Chief of the Defence Staff, require the Canadian Forces, or such part thereof as the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate considers necessary, to be called out on service in aid of the civil power.



The Federal government has no direct control in use of the CAF except possible the case where the MND directed the CDS to refuse a Province’s request for ACP.

Regards
G2G


----------



## brihard (21 Feb 2020)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> And another thought, if there are privately funded Railway Police with federal powers why aren't there privately funded Pipeline (or Powerline) Police with federal powers?



I’m not sure we want to go down the American path of niche police services all over the place. I’m bloody sure I don’t want police powers in the hand of agencies entirely answerable to corporations. We’ve already seen recently that CN might have unduly influences an investigation by their police into a triple fatal train wreck.


----------



## Cloud Cover (21 Feb 2020)

I guess that’s because the current police services are so effective?


----------



## brihard (21 Feb 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> I guess that’s because the current police services are so effective?



Depends how you measure efficacy, and whether you’re looking purely in the short term tactically, or long term strategically.

This particular situation is a really, really ugly overlap of quite a few things with long term political ramifications at both levels of government. Nobody wants a repeat of Oka or Gustafsen Lake.


----------



## GAP (21 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Depends how you measure efficacy, and whether you’re looking purely in the short term tactically, or long term strategically.
> 
> This particular situation is a really, really ugly overlap of quite a few things with long term political ramifications at both levels of government. Nobody wants a repeat of Oka or Gustafsen Lake.



Well.....after Oka or Gustafsen Lake, things settled down a lot....just say'n.... :


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’m not sure we want to go down the American path of niche police services all over the place. I’m bloody sure I don’t want police powers in the hand of agencies entirely answerable to corporations. We’ve already seen recently that CN might have unduly influences an investigation by their police into a triple fatal train wreck.



Washington DC as something like 27 different law enforcement agencies.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_agencies_in_the_District_of_Columbia


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> An oldy, but a goodie.
> 
> http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/rethinkingthereserve/week+problems+governance/280526/story.html



Holy hell.
That's brutal.


----------



## daftandbarmy (21 Feb 2020)

One way to deal with the issue is to change legislation to recognize (some types of extreme protester activity) as terrorism:

'Protesters as terrorists': growing number of states turn anti-pipeline activism into a crime 

Conservative lawmakers have put forward laws criminalizing protests in at least 18 states since 2017 that civil liberties advocates say are unconstitutional

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/08/wave-of-new-laws-aim-to-stifle-anti-pipeline-protests-activists-say



Oil Companies Persuade States to Make Pipeline Protests a Felony

States criminalize demonstrations near energy infrastructure 

Alliance of chemical makers and oil refiners pushing measures 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-19/oil-companies-persuade-states-to-make-pipeline-protests-a-felony


----------



## Remius (21 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Holy hell.
> That's brutal.



They mentioned Membertou.  I've been there and it is a good example of what can be when done right.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Feb 2020)

>One way to deal with the issue is to change legislation to recognize (some types of extreme protester activity) as terrorism:

I was turning that over in my mind - using the colloquial definitions of terrorism we sometimes toss around here (violence, or maybe merely criminal action, in pursuit of political aims, etc), wondering if protests which include theft writ large should be called terrorism.

A few protestors and supporters, following the advice of contemporary and prior activists, have explicitly declared that the point of blockades is to create economic harm, or, in plain terms, to steal.  The idea is to steal from parties with no power to directly meet demands in the hopes that they will indirectly assist by applying pressure to those with power to meet demands.  That's why they're not confining their gatherings to what most people would think of as "public spaces" - the lawn of Parliament, or of a legislature, etc.  Are some people really so protected that they can be responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars of theft and suffer no consequences?

That is also why the representatives of police who have taken to talk radio to proclaim their "neutrality", or bemoan being caught in the middle, are destroying the credibility of police.  You can be neutral if you are there to keep the peace between a group of protestors and a group of counter-protestors.  You can not really claim to be neutral if your chosen inaction gives one party everything it wants (the protestors, who want the theft to continue) and the other party nothing it wants (the freedom to get to work on time, or deliver goods, or not have to forfeit a day's pay for entirely failing to get to work).  From a "citizens" point of view, the "police" are there to serve a public need - to maintain order which allows "citizens" to go about their business - at the expense of "rats".  That's the job, and that's why the authority is delegated (from the "citizens", because we have consensual government).  Most people won't express it that way, but that's why they're calling in and writing letters wondering why the authorities aren't solidly on-side for public order, right now.

The more we tolerate, the further the boundaries will be pushed.


----------



## Strike (21 Feb 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> They mentioned Membertou.  I've been there and it is a good example of what can be when done right.



There seems to have been a turning point with the new guard of FN leaders.  There is a big push now to become less reliant on government funding and become self-sustaining. But it seems with the OW, they are led by the old guard.

I recall reading an article written by a past Chief of Membertou, about a speaking tour he'd done once the band had gone into the black, and the push-back he received from so many, especially on the west coast, was shocking.


----------



## The Bread Guy (21 Feb 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> ... A few protestors and supporters, following the advice of contemporary and prior activists, have explicitly declared that the point of blockades is to create economic harm, or, in plain terms, to steal.  The idea is to steal from parties with no power to directly meet demands in the hopes that they will indirectly assist by applying pressure to those with power to meet demands ...


When you phrase it that way, sounds an awful lot like a strike could fit into that rubric, too.  "Stealing" vs. "Denying".  That may be tough to differentiate ...


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I’m not sure we want to go down the American path of niche police services all over the place. I’m bloody sure I don’t want police powers in the hand of agencies entirely answerable to corporations. We’ve already seen recently that CN might have unduly influences an investigation by their police into a triple fatal train wreck.



Maybe not, but I thought we already had "niche" police services.  The Canadian Pacific police (1881) are older than the OPP (1909) and many others.  And they are federally authorized.

Would the problems go away if pipelines and powerlines were built on CN/CP rights of way as common, federally authorized rights of way?  Policed by the existing federally authorized police?


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Feb 2020)

>When you phrase it that way, sounds an awful lot like a strike could fit into that rubric, too.  "Stealing" vs. "Denying".  That may be tough to differentiate ...

Strikes and lockouts usually occur after an exhausted sequence of other measures taken to negotiate a contract, and may be avoided entirely if one particular measure - binding arbitration - is accepted by the parties.

Strikers, and companies which lock out workers, are also stealing from themselves.

Workers and companies are the parties directly concerned, and each is the other's primary target.

Job actions mostly occur within the boundaries of well-established laws and rules.  Protests can also do so, but at least some of the current protestors jumped outside that framework immediately.

I suppose we could say that the people who broke into my garden shed and removed my chainsaw are "denying" me its use?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Feb 2020)

After poll results came in with a vast majority not supporting the protesters, JT apparently has borrowed a spine, perhaps from Butts?


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2020)

I don't knoow if this has been posted yet - but here is the alternative to the Belleville method of managing the situation.

A CN Policeman, Edmonton city police and well-mannered concerned citizens assisting the lawful authorities in the performance of their duties.



> ‘Not in our backyard’: Alberta Wet’suwet’en rail blockade meets stiff opposition and shuts down after injunction granted
> 
> By Kieran Leavitt
> Edmonton Bureau
> ...



And, in fairness to the protesters, they also appeared to control their behaviour.

_- Mod edit to add link to article -_


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2020)

Editing


----------



## ModlrMike (21 Feb 2020)

> Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs have said they will do everything they can to stop Coastal GasLink from building the pipeline, claiming they hold the title and right to determine what happens in their traditional territory, not the elected band councils responsible for decisions on reserves.



And there, for anyone paying attention, is the kernel of the issue. This isn't about CGL, or even the RCMP. It's about who gets to run the show.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Feb 2020)

Some of the latest for the record from the PM's info-machine ...


> Today (Friday 21 Feb 2020), Prime Minister Justin Trudeau convened the Incident Response Group to discuss work underway to end the blockades and restore rail service across the country, and updates on the Ukraine International Airlines tragedy and the novel coronavirus (COVID-19).
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (22 Feb 2020)

Well! One Down, No Violence:

https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2020/02/22/fin-de-siege-a-saint-lambert

Basically, the police (local suburban force) surrounded the area and cut all access to further supporters and more importantly to further supplies. It also made clear to those on the barricade that they could not escape. Then they moved in crowd control group to an ostensible location - to be clearly seen by the protesters - and sent in regular cops to have a "final" little chat with them. Within an hour, they had moved everything out and peacefully dispersed.

The snow was cleared from the tracks starting 20 minutes later. VIA will resume Montreal-Quebec service Monday morning, as will EXO (Montreal's equivalent to GO trains) service. Also, this means all train supply for Eastern points, including the Atlantic provinces, from the Port of Montreal will resume.

I thought we should start the day with some good news.  :nod:


----------



## brihard (22 Feb 2020)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well! One Down, No Violence:
> 
> https://www.tvanouvelles.ca/2020/02/22/fin-de-siege-a-saint-lambert
> 
> ...



Good.

I’m concerned we might start seeing smaller, dispersed pop-up blockades that hit and fade in such a manner as to present the rail companies from being able to safely run trains. Alternatively we may see outright minor sabotage.

The vulnerability of our economy to a couple arterial rail links has been demonstrated. That vulnerability remains, spending on how dedicated the other wise is / how stupid a few might be willing to get.


----------



## AbdullahD (22 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Good.
> 
> I’m concerned we might start seeing smaller, dispersed pop-up blockades that hit and fade in such a manner as to present the rail companies from being able to safely run trains. Alternatively we may see outright minor sabotage.
> 
> The vulnerability of our economy to a couple arterial rail links has been demonstrated. That vulnerability remains, spending on how dedicated the other wise is / how stupid a few might be willing to get.



You are spot on, we have had pop up blockades on the northline here outside of what has been shown on the news. Since we employ a LOT of natives and/or people related to natives, we get to hear the rumors. Right now the rumors are Moricetown will be getting another Blockade.. the first one that happened after the Hazelton one came down was a fellow blocking the rail with his snowplow (a suicidal act in my opinion).

They also had some closer to Prince Rupert but the port and related businesses employ around 3,800 natives and those natives shut it down.. quickly. 

I do find it extremely interesting how those protesting, have been able to miss so much work, especially in an area were 100k+/yr jobs are being handed out to anyone who can breathe.. so yeah the time to protest and the lack of anything more important or pressing to do, is quite.. interesting. Not to mention were they have been putting up blockades.. in areas that take more work to blockade.. but are closer to certain communities and demographics.

But I think my viewpoints are well understood. So I will let this lay.
Abdullah


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Feb 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> You are spot on, we have had pop up blockades on the northline here outside of what has been shown on the news. Since we employ a LOT of natives and/or people related to natives, we get to hear the rumors. Right now the rumors are Moricetown will be getting another Blockade.. the first one that happened after the Hazelton one came down was a fellow blocking the rail with his snowplow (a suicidal act in my opinion).
> 
> They also had some closer to Prince Rupert but the port and related businesses employ around 3,800 natives and those natives shut it down.. quickly.
> 
> ...



Abdullah,

Thanks for the Northwestern BC update, from somebody who knows the area and its people.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2020)

*Planned meeting between feds, Wet’suwet’en now delayed due to Trudeau’s comments: chief*
https://globalnews.ca/news/6581735/wetsuweten-meeting-delayed-chief/amp/


 :


----------



## SeaKingTacco (22 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Planned meeting between feds, Wet’suwet’en now delayed due to Trudeau’s comments: chief*
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6581735/wetsuweten-meeting-delayed-chief/amp/
> 
> 
> :



Did these guys go to a school in North Korea to learn negotiating?

They have a federal government that is terrified of bad press on this file. Nearly no reasonable will be refused. And they won't talk. Because, reasons....


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2020)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Did these guys go to a school in North Korea to learn negotiating?
> 
> They have a federal government that is terrified of bad press on this file. Nearly no reasonable will be refused. And they won't talk. Because, reasons....



If they ended up talking and were offered some kind of fair deal or compromise then they would be the bad guys if they refused. This way they don't have to worry about being put in that situation, tI'm sure they'll continue to keep finding reasons to stall. I don't think their goal here is to find a solution.


----------



## Brad Sallows (22 Feb 2020)

If the position is "no pipeline", what is it that is being negotiated, exactly?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2020)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If the position is "no pipeline", what is it that is being negotiated, exactly?



The price of "Yes"


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Feb 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The price of "Yes"



👍

Follow the money.


----------



## brihard (24 Feb 2020)

OPP are breaking up the blockade near Belleville as I type this. Already at least one arrest. There’s a protest scheduled for Parliament Hill this morning, and probably we’ll see more activity as the prairies and B.C. wake up... I hope this stays as peaceful as circumstances allow.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> OPP are breaking up the blockade near Belleville as I type this. Already at least one arrest. There’s a protest scheduled for Parliament Hill this morning, and probably we’ll see more activity as the prairies and B.C. wake up... I hope this stays as peaceful as circumstances allow.



I have to say that I hope everyone comes through this with no serious injuries or deaths. Also, I hope the police are painted in a positive light. It seems they are tarred with the "bad guy" brush no matter what they do.


----------



## YZT580 (24 Feb 2020)

Whoever or whatever organisation is behind these protests is winning.  Teck's has announced that they will not be pursuing their northern Alberta development.  The reason given being that even if the cabinet were to approve it, the political climate would make sure that the shovels in the ground stage would cost more money than the project could hope to make.  More jobs gone.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> ... Teck's has announced that they will not be pursuing their northern Alberta development.  The reason given being that even if the cabinet were to approve it, the political climate would make sure that the shovels in the ground stage would cost more money than the project could hope to make ...


This from the horse's mouth (full Teck letter to Canada's environment minister attached) ...


> ...  global capital markets are changing rapidly and investors and customers are increasingly looking for jurisdictions to have a framework in place that reconciles resource development and climate change, in order to produce the cleanest possible products. This does not yet exist here today and, unfortunately, the growing debate around this issue has placed Frontier and our company squarely at the nexus of much broader issues that need to be resolved. In that context, it is now evident that there is no constructive path forward for the project. Questions about the societal implications of energy development, climate change and Indigenous rights are critically important ones for Canada, its provinces and Indigenous governments to work through ...


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Whoever or whatever organisation is behind these protests is winning.  Teck's has announced that they will not be pursuing their northern Alberta development.  The reason given being that even if the cabinet were to approve it, the political climate would make sure that the shovels in the ground stage would cost more money than the project could hope to make.  More jobs gone.



You can thank JT and his gang of amateurs for this. Its unfortunate that the locals will not be getting decent paying jobs. 

Its an utter disgrace - the current GoC is the very worst I have ever seen, and that includes PET's Liberal governments.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> OPP are breaking up the blockade near Belleville as I type this. Already at least one arrest. There’s a protest scheduled for Parliament Hill this morning, and probably we’ll see more activity as the prairies and B.C. wake up... I hope this stays as peaceful as circumstances allow.


This from the OPP info-machine (statement attached) ...


> FROM/DE: East Region Headquarters DATE: February 24, 2020
> 
> ENFORCEMENT TO RESOLVE PROTEST ACTIVITY IN ONTARIO
> 
> ...


... and this from MSM

_*"OPP move in on Tyendinaga protesters"*_ (inquinte.ca, closest local  media)
_*"OPP arrest multiple protesters at Tyendinaga Mohawk rail blockade"*_ (Global)
_*"OPP move in on rail blockade by Mohawks of Tyendinaga"*_ (CBC)
_*"Police clear rail protest near Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory"*_ (APTN)


----------



## Retired AF Guy (24 Feb 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Whoever or whatever organisation is behind these protests is winning.  Teck's has announced that they will not be pursuing their northern Alberta development.  The reason given being that even if the cabinet were to approve it, the political climate would make sure that the shovels in the ground stage would cost more money than the project could hope to make.  More jobs gone.



Actually not surprised about this happening. They were saying two-three weeks ago that the project might not go through even if approved. Also, to make a profit oil crude prices must be around $65 USD per barrel and stay there. Right now its around $58 USD, so no profit.


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Feb 2020)

An oldie but goodie - as a reminder that this is not new. We have been doing this to ourselves for quite a while.



> The prospect of a pipeline bringing the natural gas to North American energy markets was originally analyzed in the 1970s with the *Mackenzie Valley Pipeline* Inquiry. During that inquiry, Justice Berger heard testimony from diverse groups with an interest in the pipeline. The inquiry was notable for the voice it gave to the First Peoples whose traditional territory the pipeline would traverse. Berger stated that a pipeline should be postponed for 10 years, estimating that it would take this long for land claims to be settled and for First Peoples to be ready for the impact of such a project.[3] Before the Trudeau government could act on Berger's report, it was defeated at the polls in 1979. The short-lived government of Joe Clark also failed to act on the report. When the Liberal government was re-elected in 1980, it approved construction of an oil pipeline from Norman Wells to Zama, Alberta, through Dehcho territory where land claims have yet to be settled.
> 
> Exploration continued at a steady pace and by 1995 there were over 1,900 wells above the 60th parallel. In addition, aboriginal groups settled numerous land claims. The Inuvialuit settled the first land claim in 1984, followed by the Sahtu and Gwichʼin. By the late 1990s, companies once again seriously considered a pipeline. The Canadian government sold mineral claim rights, leading to C$400 million in bids and over C$1 billion in work commitments.
> 
> ...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_Valley_Pipeline

I was discussing the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline in class in High School.

I was facing retirement when it was approved.

Surprisingly the world had changed. 

Canada, apparently, does not know how to make decisions.  We never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  (The downside of Presbyterianism - typified by fractious debate).


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Feb 2020)

My Dad ran on a Provincial NDP ticket with Tom Berger in the 60's, they have been family friends ever since.


----------



## AbdullahD (24 Feb 2020)

For those following this closely, blockade is up at new hazelton again lol.

This time I am stuck at the away from home terminal not at home haha. So these darn protestors are making me $50/hr on excessive heldaway bahaha. Last time I was getting time with the family and got to make my kids breakfast, baked french toast, pancakes etc.

I can suffer through these downturns.. but a lot of people affected can't. So while I enjoy the down time, other people are having financial issues due to it and are starting to really resent the protestors.

I think the blockades are backfiring as far as public sentiment goes.
Abdullah


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Feb 2020)

Let the whack a mole begin ...

_*"Wet'suwet'en supporters blocking West Coast Express, Vancouver port, B.C. Legislature"*_
_*"Rail blockades add to existing backlog at B.C. ports"*_
_*"More blockades, protests in Quebec as First Nations respond to Tyendinaga arrests"*_
_*"Indigenous solidarity protests block Highway 6 in Caledonia, delay Hamilton GO trains"*_
_*"GO trains halted between Aldershot and Hamilton due to Wet’suwet’en protest on tracks"*_
... while the Trotskyist International Marxist Tendency offers up its support/suggestions/lessons to be learned ...


> ... Working-class Canadians and Indigenous land defenders have the same enemy, who has the whole power of the state behind them. Our strongest weapon is solidarity. An attack against one is an attack against all. Rather than calling on the federal government to intervene, organized labour needs to take action and join the blockades in support of the Wet’suwet’en and struggle together against our common enemy. The railway workers should be joining blockades and shut down the rail network in defence of their jobs and Indigenous rights. This is the best way to defend ourselves and have our demands met.
> 
> The Ontario Federation of Labour, the BC Teachers’ Federation, CUPW, CUPE national, CUPE Ontario, UFCW and other unions have issued statements in solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en. This is an excellent step in the right direction. However, more needs to be done. The leadership of the unions could learn a thing or two from these blockades. More has been achieved in two weeks of blockades – breaking the unjust laws of Canadian capitalism – than 20 years of “reconciliation”.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cloud Cover (24 Feb 2020)

The blockade to the CN tracks by the mill here lasted about 10 minutes before the reserve chief told the kids from Vancouver to fuck off and go home.


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Feb 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> The blockade to the CN tracks by the mill here lasted about 10 minutes before the reserve chief told the kids from Vancouver to frig off and go home.



 :rofl:


----------



## mariomike (25 Feb 2020)

Today,



> Wet’suwet’en solidarity rail blockade setup in Toronto, Milton GO train service suspended
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6595220/toronto-rail-blockade/
> 
> Toronto police could be seen at the rail site and some protesters could be seen being escorted off the tracks as several others remained.


----------



## Cloud Cover (25 Feb 2020)

Can dogs be used by police to end some of these? Sorry, they slipped off the leash ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Feb 2020)

If one believes polls these days, public support seems to be slipping ....


> A growing proportion of Canadians are turning sour on the blockade of key transportation corridors in solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en Nation and support police intervention to end the blockades, according to a new Ipsos poll conducted on behalf of Global News.
> 
> Hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en Nation in British Columbia oppose the construction of the Coastal GasLink natural gas pipeline in British Columbia, despite the project being approved by the local band councils whose territory the pipeline passes through. Protests by Indigenous peoples and their supporters have blocked project construction in BC and have also spread to other regions of the country, including blocking main rail lines that move freight and passengers. On Monday the Ontario Provincial Police moved in to end the blockade near Belleville, Ontario, but new blockades are continuing to sprout. This poll was in field ahead of that intervention.
> 
> ...


More from Ipsos @ link


----------



## ModlrMike (26 Feb 2020)

Those that stand to lose the most are the Wet’suwet’en and by extension, FN in general. The latte drinking, Range Rover driving, merino wool slipper wearing professional protester will go back to their McMansion secure in the belief that they singlehandedly saved the planet. Meanwhile the FN who desperately need these development opportunities will continue to suffer the ills of socioeconomic stagnation, substance abuse and suicide. Well done self-appointed pseudo-environmental neocolonialists.


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Feb 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Can dogs be used by police to end some of these? Sorry, they slipped off the leash ...



I think our usual response to these types of things will suffice: everyone will ignore it after all the hype dies down... in about a week.


----------



## mariomike (26 Feb 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Can dogs be used by police to end some of these? Sorry, they slipped off the leash ...



I'm not a lawyer. But, there might / or might not, be potential lawsuits against the taxpayers to consider, 
( Depending on the circumstances, of course. )



> What's a bite from an OPP police dog worth?
> https://www.toronto.com/news-story/6498233-what-s-a-bite-from-an-opp-police-dog-worth-40-000/






			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I think our usual response to these types of things will suffice: everyone will ignore it after all the hype dies down... in about a week.



Except the lawyers, maybe. ( Depending on the circumstances, of course. )


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If one believes polls these days, public support seems to be slipping ....More from Ipsos @ link


And here we have the more ...  sunshine-y read of the same numbers ...


> A new Ipsos poll has found that 39% of Canadians are supportive of the blockades of key transportation corridors in solidarity with Wet’suwet’en Nation. While some commentators have said this shows a lack of support for protestors, others have pointed out the blockades received a higher percentage of support than any federal party received in the past election ...


----------



## Kirkhill (26 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And here we have the more ...  sunshine-y read of the same numbers ...



40/60 split is enough if following Queensbury rules.

But if you are playing by Lancashire rules (Lancashire wrestling is a historic wrestling style from Lancashire in England known for its "Catch-as-catch-can", or no wrestling holds barred, style)

Then



> An RUC report of 1986 estimated that the IRA had 300 or so members in Active Service Units and up to 750 active members in total in Northern Ireland.[41] This does not take into consideration the IRA units in the Republic of Ireland or those in Great Britain, continental Europe, and throughout the world. In 2005, the then Irish Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Michael McDowell told the Dáil that the organisation had "between 1,000 and 1,500" active members.[203]
> 
> According to the book The Provisional IRA (by Eamon Mallie and Patrick Bishop), roughly 8,000 people passed through the ranks of the IRA in the first 20 years of its existence, many of them leaving after arrest, "retirement" or disillusionment.[204] In later years, the IRA's strength has been somewhat weakened by members leaving the organisation to join hardline splinter groups such as the Continuity IRA and the Real IRA. According to former Irish Minister for Justice Michael McDowell, these organisations have little more than 150 members each.[203]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#Strength_and_support

Particularly true if, after 150 years you can count the number of each of the railways, highways, ports, pipelines, canals, powerlines on the figures of one hand.


----------



## Czech_pivo (26 Feb 2020)

Question - does the lighting of fires (with our without tires) on the main east-west train lines constitute as act of 'Terrorism' as defined under current Federal legislation?

Under the 2013 Via Rail Canada terrorism trial I bring forth the following: " a conspiracy to commit terrorist acts in and against Canada in the form of disruption, destruction or derailment of trains operated by Canada's national passenger railway service, Via Rail Canada."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Via_Rail_Canada_terrorism_plot

The part about 'in the form of disruption, destruction....of trains' - one could argue that the lighting of fires on the tracks is a form 'disruption, destruction....of trains'

Thoughts?  

It would certainly fan the flames across Canada, but I'm not certain how a ISIS supporter taking a few 50 litre containers of gas, pouring it over the CN rail lines WEST of Belleville and planting an ISIS flag is much different than a bunch of guys doing the same thing EAST of Belleville and planing a Mohawk Warrior flag.  The result is the exact same - the 'disruption, destruction....of trains'


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Feb 2020)

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Question - does the lighting of fires (with our without tires) on the main east-west train lines constitute as act of 'Terrorism' as defined under current Federal legislation?
> 
> Under the 2013 Via Rail Canada terrorism trial I bring forth the following: " a conspiracy to commit terrorist acts in and against Canada in the form of disruption, destruction or derailment of trains operated by Canada's national passenger railway service, Via Rail Canada." ...


Not a lawyer, but is the fire in question itself _destroying_ or _damaging_ track infrastructure?  That to me would be a clear case of "destruction" if that was happening.  "Derailment" sounds like it would be easy to see/prove, too.

"Disruption"?  Is the company cancelling a train because there's a fire _next to_ the track a fire-precipitated disruption?  That I'll leave to legal beagles.


----------



## brihard (26 Feb 2020)

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Question - does the lighting of fires (with our without tires) on the main east-west train lines constitute as act of 'Terrorism' as defined under current Federal legislation?
> 
> Under the 2013 Via Rail Canada terrorism trial I bring forth the following: " a conspiracy to commit terrorist acts in and against Canada in the form of disruption, destruction or derailment of trains operated by Canada's national passenger railway service, Via Rail Canada."
> 
> ...



Not at all. Not even close. “Terrorism” has a very high threshold, and with good reason. Stunts like that are routine criminal mischief. There’s nothing inadequate about the laws covering such things. We don’t want to fall into the American trap of throwing the ‘Terrorism’ term around too willy nilly, lest it lose its significance.


----------



## Czech_pivo (26 Feb 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not at all. Not even close. “Terrorism” has a very high threshold, and with good reason. Stunts like that are routine criminal mischief. There’s nothing inadequate about the laws covering such things. We don’t want to fall into the American trap of throwing the ‘Terrorism’ term around too willy nilly, lest it lose its significance.



Straight from the Government of Canada website - 

"In Canada, section 83.01 of the Criminal Code[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or _ideological purpose_, objective or cause" _with the intention of intimidating the public_ "…with regard to its security, _including its economic security,_ or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act." _Activities recognized as criminal within this context_ include death and bodily harm with the use of violence; endangering a person’s life; risks posed to the health and_ safety of the public;_ significant property damage; and interference or disruption of essential services, facilities or systems."

The italics I have added to highlight areas where this argument can be made.


----------



## AbdullahD (26 Feb 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Not a lawyer, but is the fire in question itself _destroying_ or _damaging_ track infrastructure?  That to me would be a clear case of "destruction" if that was happening.  "Derailment" sounds like it would be easy to see/prove, too.
> 
> "Disruption"?  Is the company cancelling a train because there's a fire _next to_ the track a fire-precipitated disruption?  That I'll leave to legal beagles.



I'll preface an answer as to track damage, with my experience. I have spent last two summers on work trains, working with engineering to maintain and build track. We also have quite regular fires up here intentional or not and fires that trains start themselves, either by using air brakes in the summer or from the weight creating friction on the ties.

Now depending on the track speed, location  etc they could be using concrete ties, if so fires have 0% chance of affecting anything. If they are wood ties, even if the fires burn for long enough to do damage, a 25 mph slow would mitigate all of it. Also if the fire is to the outside of rail the damage it does to the integrity of the rail is reduced. Fires to the outside of the rail take a lot longer to cause damage. Also since it is a known problem foreman are either riding trains or using highrails to inspect for damages I imagine.

A derailment risk does exist, sure. I just do not think it is realistic. We also ship hydrochloric acid, diesel, propane, butane and other interesting products.. so trying to cause a derailment and sticking around to watch is idiotic in my opinion. As far as charges go as well, certain interest groups are alway trying to burn rails in the summer and I have never seen charges being laid up here.. I suspect the railways will avoid it so that they remain a byproduct of the protests not the target.

Abdullah


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Feb 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I'll preface an answer as to track damage, with my experience. I have spent last two summers on work trains, working with engineering to maintain and build track. We also have quite regular fires up here intentional or not and fires that trains start themselves, either by using air brakes in the summer or from the weight creating friction on the ties.
> 
> Now depending on the track speed, location  etc they could be using concrete ties, if so fires have 0% chance of affecting anything. If they are wood ties, even if the fires burn for long enough to do damage, a 25 mph slow would mitigate all of it. Also if the fire is to the outside of rail the damage it does to the integrity of the rail is reduced. Fires to the outside of the rail take a lot longer to cause damage. Also since it is a known problem foreman are either riding trains or using highrails to inspect for damages I imagine.
> 
> ...



That's reassuring!

I'm also assuming that the train people will have a good look a the tracks before putting a train over them....


----------



## AbdullahD (26 Feb 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That's reassuring!
> 
> I'm also assuming that the train people will have a good look a the tracks before putting a train over them....



Usually yep, not going to risk that amount of money for nothing. Plus slow orders, restricting speed etc. If we know we have to watch out for something we can usually stop before it.

I have personally ran a train over skeletonized track and all was ok, so I would rest easy (I can be wrong though lol)

Abdullah


----------



## Haggis (26 Feb 2020)

Québec french language media are reporting that Premier Legault has confirmed that illegal blockaders at Kahanawke have AK-47's, which is why the SQ will not immediately enforce the injunction to open the rail lines.  Of course, the Mohawk leadership strongly denies this claim, calling it "dangerous and inflammatory".

In other news, it's snowing again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2020)

* Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train* 

https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/

Standing infront of the train trying to stop it. Appear to be throwing logs on the tracks. Throwing rocks at the train engine windows. 

How much are we going to let them get away with?


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> * Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/
> 
> ...



Oka has this GoC running scared. A total abdication of leadership. At least Father T had a pair- “just watch me”


----------



## Czech_pivo (26 Feb 2020)

Hmmm, that second video looks close to be related to the definitions I listed above.


----------



## AbdullahD (26 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> * Tyendinaga protesters stand on tracks attempting to block oncoming CN freight train*
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/video/6599326/tyendinaga-protesters-stand-on-tracks-to-block-oncoming-cn-freight-train/
> 
> ...



Bahaha those twigs and pebbles won't do jack. Hell you could be firing a .223 AR at us and I would only duck down out of prudence for safety haha.

We routinely go through trees and split them in half, those twigs would not even slow a train down. Heck one year there was a full grown fir tree that hit our windshield, only spider cracked the window. Called the diesel doc and he said he had taken an old window home and tried shooting through it.. any rate the smaller calibres had no effect at all.

Albeit that train may have been in emergency, I saw the unit brakes did not appear to be set up which generally happens when you put a train into emergency you bail off the units brakes in order to reduce derailment risks.

So they could have effectively stopped that train by being idiots on the rail, to many people commit suicide via trains and it is a very real fear when we go to work, that we may kill someone who just wants to end their life. So I suspect the crew had that train in emergency for sure.

Funny thing though much more effective means of hurting the rail industry in canada exist. Yet they do not do it.. kind of interesting.

Abdullah

P.s I am hoping the blockade up here starts again so I can stay home on pay and go to the science fair with son this friday ^^ so w00t go blockaders! Hahaha


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Bahaha those twigs and pebbles won't do jack. Hell you could be firing a .223 AR at us and I would only duck down out of prudence for safety haha.



Certainly an agressive view to take which I can appreciate. Trains are pretty badass. 

But I feel that's missing the point. 

"Peaceful" protestors are evolving from standing on tracks trying to stop trains from passing to standing infront of moving trains. Lighting fires under trains and beside the tracks. Putting debris infront of moving trains and pelting them with rocks. Yea it's not damaging much now. 

When do we start taking this more seriously? When they move derelict vehicles infront of trains? Damage the tracks infront of moving trains? 



Random train porn


----------



## Quirky (27 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When do we start taking this more seriously? When they move derelict vehicles infront of trains? Damage the tracks infront of moving trains?



Trains and tracks are easy targets because they are essentially out in the open and unguarded. These terrorists wouldn't get within a meter of an airport runway, they'd get arrested immediately. Nor would they dare get in the way of fully loaded oil tankers in Vancouver Harbour. Why is the government allowing blatant acts of terrorism on our transportation infrastructure? I hate to say this, but its time for authorities to use lethal force on these imbeciles. Send the trains through the blockades, then we will see just how dedicated they are to their cause.


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Trains and tracks are easy targets because they are essentially out in the open and unguarded. These terrorists wouldn't get within a meter of an airport runway, they'd get arrested immediately. Nor would they dare get in the way of fully loaded oil tankers in Vancouver Harbour. Why is the government allowing blatant acts of terrorism on our transportation infrastructure? I hate to say this, but its time for authorities to use lethal force on these imbeciles. Send the trains through the blockades, then we will see just how dedicated they are to their cause.


There are a million first nations individuals in our country. 

Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with. 

So how about no.


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> There are a million first nations individuals in our country.
> 
> Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with.



You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.


----------



## Good2Golf (27 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.



...perhaps it is, but only for non-Canadian citizens?

2013 VIA Rail terrorism plot

Regards
G2G


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You don't need lethal force. Just lawful arrest. Attempting to derail a moving train to further a political goal is domestic terrorism. Fill the jails up. I'm willing to bet only a minority of the radicals are actually First Nations anyways.


considering that those first nations have little in the terms of means to derail a train (trains are big metal beasts and will make short work for any wooden pallet) and every arrest only inspiring more activists,  a strategy of starving the movement of oxygen may be the best one. 

Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> considering that those first nations have little in the terms of means to derail a train (trains are big metal beasts and will make short work for any wooden pallet) and every arrest only inspiring more activists,  a strategy of starving the movement of oxygen may be the best one.
> 
> Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die



So your solution is we just let them do whatever they want? Or give in to their demands and make this an acceptable means of public policy discourse?  :facepalm:


----------



## MilEME09 (27 Feb 2020)

The other slightly less extreme is the Emergency act, which replaced the war measure's act, start arrests, and preemptive arrests, and hold them, no release on conditions, starve their man power, and blockade the roadblocks, prevent their resupply.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Feb 2020)

No need to be overwrought, with schemes to harm protestors or derive them of public benefits without due process.  Just enforce the law.  That means arrest, detention, and charges.  It's one thing to wear a conviction because you were an environmental extremist supporting someone whose position is "no pipeline".  It's another thing to be a useful idiot and go to jail for someone who later decides the price is right.

The lawful authorities should start working on some convictions now, and if the chiefs are really just holding out for a price ("no pipeline" is just an opening negotiating position), then all prospective future supporters of similar causes will have to seriously ask whether they are willing to risk jail time and a record on behalf of someone who has a dollar figure in his head.  I doubt the chiefs are going to make your bail or pay your lawyers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2020)

[quote author=Altair] 

Arrest them,  and 2 more blockades pop up. Arrest those and two more pop up for each one. Suddenly you've gone from 1 economically disruptive protest to 4. Again,  there are close to a million first nations in this country,  engaging in whack a mole will drag this out and eventually someone is going to get hurt/die
[/quote]
A million first nations protestors, that could be trouble.

Good thing most First Nations seem to be in support of the pipelines. Because it gives them jobs, security and independence (from begging for handouts from crooked chiefs) 
And most protestors seem to be of design.


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So your solution is we just let them do whatever they want? Or give in to their demands and make this an acceptable means of public policy discourse?  :facepalm:


Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them. 

But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them.
> 
> But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.



In case you haven't been paying attention, they've been doing all those things. Pallets are the mildest thing that's been done.


----------



## Quirky (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> There are a million first nations individuals in our country.
> 
> Lethal force on them will radicalize a good amount of them.  If even 1 percent become violent radicals,  that's 10 000 who would need to be dealt with.
> 
> So how about no.



The violent radicals are not native, they don't put face masks on and go on camera. The huge majority of the vigilantes are white dudes that are paid off by interest groups wanting to destabilise the Canadian energy industry. Most of the FN I've seen, on TV anyway, sit next to or on the tracks in their protests. 



			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Whatever they want?  No. If they start doing really dangerous things like putting cars on rails,  firing weapons,  trying to damage or destroy tracks,  naturally stop and arrest them.
> 
> But if they are doing relatively harmless(to a train)  things like putting flimsy pallets and lighting then on fire,  I dont see that as being worth the headache it would cause to arrest them.



That's a stupid argument. The ends does not justify the means. So by your logic, I can fly a small drone into an airliner on takeoff or approach, but since it won't really do any damage, it's not worth the headache to stop me?  :facepalm:

The media hasn't helped this situation at all either. Every time they run a story on this crap it just fuels the fire. Ignore the protests, stop giving them coverage and let the authorities handle it properly without everything being scrutinized on a camera. The woke unemployed college grads will move on and concentrate their efforts elsewhere.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2020)

I'll take a big pass on enforcing laws only when it's convenient or PC.


----------



## mariomike (27 Feb 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> P.s I am hoping the blockade up here starts again so I can stay home on pay and go to the science fair with son this friday ^^ so w00t go blockaders! Hahaha



Hope it ends soon. I would love to ride 100 miles with you, Abdullah.  

This blockade would have driven my old man nuts.


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> In case you haven't been paying attention, they've been doing all those things. Pallets are the mildest thing that's been done.


Which is why I say just let them throw pallets until the situation is over. If they escalate beyond that and actually stop rail traffic,  arrest them. 

But as long as rail traffic is actually moving what's the point in escalating the situation?


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> The violent radicals are not native, they don't put face masks on and go on camera. The huge majority of the vigilantes are white dudes that are paid off by interest groups wanting to destabilise the Canadian energy industry. Most of the FN I've seen, on TV anyway, sit next to or on the tracks in their protests.


 I have yet to see any violent radicals to date. I have seen people peacefully, but illegally stop trains. I've seen other FN block the BC legislature. Some others distrupting a highway near oka. 





> That's a stupid argument. The ends does not justify the means. So by your logic, I can fly a small drone into an airliner on takeoff or approach, but since it won't really do any damage, it's not worth the headache to stop me?  :facepalm:


 not what I'm saying. Planes are a lot more fragile than trains. A more comparable analogy in the case of planes is having a group of protestors throwing paper airplanes at planes taking off. If that was the case,  I would say let them. 





> The media hasn't helped this situation at all either. Every time they run a story on this crap it just fuels the fire. Ignore the protests, stop giving them coverage and let the authorities handle it properly without everything being scrutinized on a camera. The woke unemployed college grads will move on and concentrate their efforts elsewhere.


To not realize how many first nations are not happy with what is happening in BC (while recognizing a lot of them are) would be a critical error. 

As for telling the media what to cover,  that is some authoritarian level nonsense. France had a year of protests,  and they didn't limit the press in doing their job. They arrested who needed to be arrested and eventually the protestors ran out of steam.


----------



## MilEME09 (27 Feb 2020)

Was reading a good article today about the labeling of some of these more radical actions as terrorism, and while most of the boxes are ticked, a key one isnt, the intent to harm or kill people. Arguement could be made trying to derail a train is that intent but that's a legal grey area


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'll take a big pass on enforcing laws only when it's convenient or PC.


Shame. 

Canadian police forces don't seem eager to antagonize first nations if they don't absolutely need to. Even gung ho Francois legault has the SQ taking a very patience and deliberately approach to dealing with potentially armed first nations south of montreal.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Feb 2020)

MOAR polling tea leaves to read - highlights mine ...


> As mass arrests and burning tires along rail lines define the state of developments in a country-wide series of blockades in protest against a $6.6 billion natural gas pipeline being built by Coastal Gaslink in northern BC, Canadians are profoundly divided over how to handle the situation.
> 
> *A new study from the non-profit Angus Reid Institute, conducted February 25-26, finds nearly half (47%) say patience and dialogue with those opposed to the project is the best way to resolution. The other half (53%), however, say that these blockades should be brought down using whatever force is necessary.*
> 
> ...


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> But as long as rail traffic is actually moving what's the point in escalating the situation?



Until someone is killed or a massive ecological disaster happens because a train is derailed? There's a reason why its illegal to trespass on railways.


----------



## YZT580 (27 Feb 2020)

And have a care for the fellow sitting in the cab of the diesel barrelling down on the protesters.  If they don't jump in time, he has to live with it so it isn't theoretical he doesn't deserve PTSD counselling for simply trying to do his job.  The trains are running so clear the tracks.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Feb 2020)

Protests are a classic example of "what is seen" versus "what is unseen".  All the comments regarding concerns for safety and security are focused only on the direct protest.  No-one attempts to measure all the second-hand harm.


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> Shame.
> 
> Canadian police forces don't seem eager to antagonize first nations if they don't absolutely need to. Even gung ho Francois legault has the SQ taking a very patience and deliberately approach to dealing with potentially armed first nations south of montreal.



Was that the argument where they said they wouldn't go near the protestors because they have prohibited illegally owned AK47 assault rifles?

If so, do you see anytning wrong with that whole situation?


----------



## Altair (27 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Was that the argument where they said they wouldn't go near the protestors because they have prohibited illegally owned AK47 assault rifles?
> 
> If so, do you see anytning wrong with that whole situation?


yes


----------



## mariomike (27 Feb 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> So they could have effectively stopped that train by being idiots on the rail, to many people commit suicide via trains and it is a very real fear when we go to work, that we may kill someone who just wants to end their life.



My dad was a CNR / VIA Rail locomotive engineer from 1946 - 1991. So I guess you know the same truth he did: If you drive trains, you kill people.


----------



## Czech_pivo (27 Feb 2020)

A great article in my humble opinion. 

This is the level-headed approach that is needed.

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMidWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvctIBeWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvci9hbXA?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA%3Aen


----------



## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> yes



How embrassing for Quebec's government and police.


----------



## Weinie (27 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> I have yet to see any violent radicals to date. I have seen people peacefully, but illegally stop trains. I've seen other FN block the BC legislature. Some others distrupting a highway near oka.  not what I'm saying. Planes are a lot more fragile than trains. A more comparable analogy in the case of planes is having a group of protestors throwing paper airplanes at planes taking off. If that was the case,  I would say let them. To not realize how many first nations are not happy with what is happening in BC (while recognizing a lot of them are) would be a critical error.
> 
> As for telling the media what to cover,  that is some authoritarian level nonsense. France had a year of protests,  and they didn't limit the press in doing their job. They arrested who needed to be arrested and eventually the protestors ran out of steam.




You have struck a balance between Gandhi and Neville Chamberlain. Hope this works out well for all of us.


----------



## Lumber (27 Feb 2020)

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> A great article in my humble opinion.
> 
> This is the level-headed approach that is needed.
> 
> https://news.google.com/articles/CBMidWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvctIBeWh0dHBzOi8vbmF0aW9uYWxwb3N0LmNvbS9vcGluaW9uL2RhdmlkLWNoYXJ0cmFuZC10aGUtd2V0c3V3ZXRlbi1ibG9ja2FkZXMtZG9lcy1ldmVyeW9uZS1rbm93LXdoYXQtdGhleXJlLWZpZ2h0aW5nLWZvci9hbXA?hl=en-CA&gl=CA&ceid=CA%3Aen



It's almost like their is a civil _cold _war going on within many first nations communities. On the one hand, you have those who are happy with the "municipal-republic" form of democracy (elected chiefs and councils) instilled both legally by the Indian Act and culturally by virtue of growing up and living in Canada, and on the other hand you have those who want to hold on to the old ways of a quasi monarchy in the form hereditary chiefs and councils of elders. The latter group want this (IMO) either because a. they think retaining ones culture should always have primacy over western/colonial ways of doing things, regardless of which way may actually be better, b. they really think their old ways are better than modern democratic ways, or, c. those in line to be hereditary chiefs, and their friends/families, stand to personally gain from this method.  They need to sort themselves out, but it also doesn't help that there are over 600 different first nations in Canada, and they all have the potential to choose their own unique "traditional" way of governing themselves. Can you imagine if we got rid of the federal and provincial levels of government, and had every town/city over 5000 people on Canada choosing whatever form of government they felt was most culturally appropriate to the inhabitants of those towns/cities? 

It's a damn mess, I tell you.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Feb 2020)

It was interesting to see that no one back East was paying much attention until the Mohawks took up the cause and started inconveniencing people there. That's when Trudeau decided it was time to cut his self-promotion trip short.

Now I'm wondering if Alberta and BC put the Mohawks up to it just so Eastern Canada would finally pay attention to the West


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> It's almost like their is a civil _cold _war going on within many first nations communities. On the one hand, you have those who are happy with the "municipal-republic" form of democracy (elected chiefs and councils) instilled both legally by the Indian Act and culturally by virtue of growing up and living in Canada, and on the other hand you have those who want to hold on to the old ways of a quasi monarchy in the form hereditary chiefs and councils of elders. The latter group want this (IMO) either because a. they think retaining ones culture should always have primacy over western/colonial ways of doing things, regardless of which way may actually be better, b. they really think their old ways are better than modern democratic ways, or, c. those in line to be hereditary chiefs, and their friends/families, stand to personally gain from this method.  They need to sort themselves out, but it also doesn't help that there are over 600 different first nations in Canada, and they all have the potential to choose their own unique "traditional" way of governing themselves. Can you imagine if we got rid of the federal and provincial levels of government, and had every town/city over 5000 people on Canada choosing whatever form of government they felt was most culturally appropriate to the inhabitants of those towns/cities?
> 
> It's a damn mess, I tell you.



My impression is that the current crop of leaders in the communities grew up with the Right and title fights, very much a David vs Goliath thing. Except now the young people on the Reserve want jobs and a future that allows them to escape the poverty their parent suffered and the leaders for the most part are unprepared for that shift.


----------



## Remius (28 Feb 2020)

“Meanwhile, protesters in solidarity with the pipeline protests decide against blocking the Ottawa light rail as they realized that blocking it would have no significant impact whatsoever on the daily commute in Ottawa.”




* made up news btw.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2020)

Remius said:
			
		

> “Meanwhile, protesters in solidarity with the pipeline protests decide against blocking the Ottawa light rail as they realized that blocking it would have no significant impact whatsoever on the daily commute in Ottawa.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Organizers say the snow had already blocked the light rail system too much for their protest to make any realistic difference." 


> My impression is that the current crop of leaders in the communities grew up with the Right and title fights, very much a David vs Goliath thing. Except now the young people on the Reserve want jobs and a future that allows them to escape the poverty their parent suffered and the leaders for the most part are unprepared for that shift.


Lotta truth there ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (28 Feb 2020)

Comment: Last thing First Nations need is foreign groups hijacking our future 

By: Ellis Ross

Most Canadians are becoming painfully aware that there is a distinct movement underway to undermine our resource economy and with it, undo the achievements of Aboriginal community leaders who have been successfully reconciling Aboriginal rights and title with the Crown for the past 15 years.

Many of those lining up against the Coastal GasLink pipeline are non-Aboriginal, while some are even from south of the border.
Foreign influence is nothing new, but what we are seeing today is a well-executed campaign financed by the likes of Tides Canada and the U.S.-based Rockefeller Foundation.

Researcher Vivian Krause has well documented the source of these funds and has followed the distribution of money to environmental activist groups here in Canada. If she wasn’t taken seriously before, I’m sure Canadians will take another look at her research today.

Caught in the middle are First Nations such as the Wet’suwet’en, whose people are being divided by a question of authority between the elected band council members and hereditary chiefs. The other group that’s caught in the middle are everyday British Columbians — including fellow Aboriginals who just want to get home, to work or to the hospital.

The fact of the matter is that all 203 First Nations in British Columbia have different approaches to governance. The last thing any of us need is intervention from foreign groups that want to hijack our future for their own objectives.

Unfortunately, that’s what’s happening right now. I can assure you that most Aboriginal people, their elected band councils and even their hereditary chiefs are far more interested in ending poverty, suicide and the hopelessness we inherited from the past than in pleasing some environmental activist group.

We appreciate the concern that most Canadians have for the well-being of our Aboriginal peoples. But we want reconciliation on our own terms.

It might make you feel better to stand in front of a bridge or stop a railway crossing, but what you are really doing is turning public opinion against First Nations who never asked for your “help” in the first place.

We are lucky that no one has been seriously hurt or killed so far. Most Aboriginal leaders want to keep it that way.

That being said, I do take offence when fellow Aboriginals stick their nose where it doesn’t belong. Grand Chief Stewart Phillip, who has been president of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs since 1998, is a prime example by recently declaring that “reconciliation cannot be achieved at gunpoint.”

Police wouldn’t have to get involved if we didn’t have outsiders like Phillip stirring up the pot and dividing us, instead of supporting all First Nations equally.

Many First Nations have invested years into establishing their own rights and title, only to have inflammatory comments and actions attempt to set back genuine efforts at reconciliation.

Time and again, self-appointed “Aboriginal spokespeople” try to push their own agenda at the expense of those living both on- and off-reserve.

However, as an elected chief councillor of the Haisla Nation for a number of years, I learned a few things along the way.

First, work from the ground up — meaning do what you can for anybody in need an opportunity at a good life — regardless of ethnicity.

Second, we are not always talking about Aboriginal people. If we pull First Nations out of poverty, we in turn strengthen all other communities, provinces and the country as a whole.

Last of all, stick to the facts. In this case, read all of the case law delivered by the courts and understand the principles that each case provides, and then use these principles to build the future you want.

The bottom line is First Nations want to be independent from the Indian Act funding, and we definitely want to break the cycle of poverty that was passed down to us.

There are very brave Aboriginal leaders out there who are not swayed by distraction politics and they always do what’s best for their communities.

Many of our matriarchs, elders and chiefs have been waiting for decades to see the day when we could see our children and our grandchildren succeed. That day came 15 years ago in my community.

It will be more than just a shame if those people who want to see us fail achieve their goals. I, for one, think that fighting for a future for the next generation of Aboriginals is a worthwhile fight.

For that simple reason, I will continue to oppose those who want to keep us poor and under the Indian Act.

This includes foreign money that has no business interfering with reconciliation.

https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/op-ed/comment-last-thing-first-nations-need-is-foreign-groups-hijacking-our-future-1.24085282


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2020)

Latest from the OPP (attached) ....


> FROM/DE: East Region Headquarters FROM: February 27, 2020
> 
> -UPDATE #1-
> 
> ...


----------



## Altair (28 Feb 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> You have struck a balance between Gandhi and Neville Chamberlain. Hope this works out well for all of us.


I hope you notice that the blockade near Belleville is starting to wind down. 

Maybe I was right.


----------



## MilEME09 (28 Feb 2020)

Notice only a couple of the arrested are local


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Feb 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Notice only a couple of the arrested are local


... and at least six are from Aboriginal communities, and no obvious foreigners.


----------



## Czech_pivo (28 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> I hope you notice that the blockade near Belleville is starting to wind down.
> 
> Maybe I was right.



Possibly - but I'd be willing to bet that the weather over the last 2 days has alot to do with it.  Wait until Monday-Tuesday when its above 0c again.


----------



## Weinie (28 Feb 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> I hope you notice that the blockade near Belleville is starting to wind down.
> 
> Maybe I was right.



Altair,

I sincerely hope that you are right, for a host of reasons.

Perhaps the blockade is winding down because police arrested 10 people and demonstrated resolve. Perhaps the recent polling that suggested about three quarters of Canadians felt that protesters/blockades had gone too far caused native leadership to reassess. Perhaps it was the weather, as a previous poster has suggested. 

Whatever the reason(s) "jaw jaw is better than war war" but you need someone to jaw jaw with.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (29 Feb 2020)

The official EA started early 2014, but the Company started FN engagement around 2012 as I recall. That's 8 years to resolve things and they did with 20 FN, some of them very litigious. These chiefs didn't get the deal they wanted and had lots of time to resolve things, zero, zero sympathy for them or their cause.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Feb 2020)

Meanwhile ...


> CN Rail has started calling back some of the 450 workers the company laid off in Eastern Canada earlier this month due to blockades set up on the company’s rail lines.
> 
> The company confirmed to Global that an email was sent to its customers Friday announcing the news, but would not share additional details ...


----------



## Czech_pivo (29 Feb 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The official EA started early 2014, but the Company started FN engagement around 2012 as I recall. That's 8 years to resolve things and they did with 20 FN, some of them very litigious. These chiefs didn't get the deal they wanted and had lots of time to resolve things, zero, zero sympathy for them or their cause.



I agree.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Mar 2020)

'I once toured an Indigenous community with a B.C. premier that had never been visited by any premier in our history, which is quite shocking when you think about it. After many hours of hearing a litany of concerns and complaints, the premier told me he was surprised how many issues the community had with the government.

“When you only come around every hundred years, they kind of pile up,” I told him.'

https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/op-ed/island-voices-ex-bureaucrat-s-attack-on-premier-was-offensive-and-wrong-1.24087167


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Mar 2020)

_*"Wet'suwet'en chiefs, ministers reach tentative arrangement over land title but debate over pipeline continues"*_

For the record, from the GoC ...


> Wet'suwet'en Hereditary Chief Woos, B.C. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation Scott Fraser and Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Carolyn Bennett, issued the following statement today:
> 
> "Over the past three days, we have had frank and substantive discussions, guided by Wiggus (respect), on issues around Wet'suwet'en rights and title.
> 
> ...



... and the company:


> Following the conclusion of discussions between the Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chiefs and representatives of the federal and provincial governments, Coastal GasLink President David Pfeiffer has issued the following statement:
> 
> “Coastal GasLink appreciates the dialogue that has occurred over the past several days and the fact that significant progress has been made to address the concerns of the Wet’suwet’en Hereditary Chiefs.
> 
> ...


op:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Mar 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 'I once toured an Indigenous community with a B.C. premier that had never been visited by any premier in our history, which is quite shocking when you think about it. After many hours of hearing a litany of concerns and complaints, the premier told me he was surprised how many issues the community had with the government.
> 
> “When you only come around every hundred years, they kind of pile up,” I told him.'
> 
> https://www.timescolonist.com/opinion/op-ed/island-voices-ex-bureaucrat-s-attack-on-premier-was-offensive-and-wrong-1.24087167



I suspect there is a few non-native places no premier has been as well. Since a reserve is Federal land it's not that surprising.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Mar 2020)

I laughed when I read that bit about places premiers in BC have been.  I've traveled many of the backroads of BC south of Williams Lake and west of the Okanagan, and there are a lot of small places that have probably never been graced by the presence of a premier other than for the 30 seconds it took to drive through.


----------



## The Bread Guy (3 Mar 2020)

This from Aboriginal media ...


> Stephen Buffalo feels there is a lot of misrepresentation around the resource sector and Indigenous people’s opposition to it.
> 
> Buffalo is the CEO and president of the Indian Resource Council, representing roughly 130 First Nation communities that are producing or have the potential to produce oil and gas.
> 
> ...


A bit more @ link


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Mar 2020)

Kingston Police ask residents to stay away from scene of train derailment 
https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/kingston-police-ask-residents-to-stay-away-from-scene-of-train-derailment-1.4838385

Coincidence?



Gotta be careful with those chemical train cars.

A TC-111 type train car can transport 131,000L of product.  Chlorine in it's liquid state (how it's transported) converts to a gaseous state when it's exposed to air. 1 cup of liquid chlorine coverts to about 300 square feet of gas.

Crack open a train car full of chlorine and that's some 553 000 x 300 square feet of area filled with a substance that turns the moist surface of eyes, throats, and lungs into acid.


----------



## mariomike (4 Mar 2020)

> 1:00 PM - 4 Mar 2020
> 
> Kingston Police
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Mar 2020)

> There is no indication whatsoever that this derailment has anything to do with Wet’suwet’en solidarity demonstrations at this time.



That's good news


----------



## mariomike (4 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's good news



Good news indeed. Would you mind posting your news source for the quote?


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Mar 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Good news indeed. Would you mind posting your news source for the quote?



Sure  



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> 1:00 PM - 4 Mar 2020
> 
> Kingston Police
> 
> ...


----------



## mariomike (4 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sure



The quote you posted in Reply #1217 on: Today at 17:00:03


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Mar 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> The quote you posted in Reply #1217 on: Today at 17:00:03



The quote is from the link you posted. 2nd Twitter post on the page, from the Kingstonist.


----------



## mariomike (4 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The quote is from the link you posted. 2nd Twitter post on the page, from the Kingstonist.



Thank-you. I was quoting Kingston Police. 

Did not realise you were quoting the Kingstonist.
https://twitter.com/kingstonist


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... A TC-111 type train car can transport 131,000L of product.  Chlorine in it's liquid state (how it's transported) converts to a gaseous state when it's exposed to air. 1 cup of liquid chlorine coverts to about 300 square feet of gas ...


As the situation was/is unfolding, here's an update on what _was_ in the cars in question ...


> ... An update from CN says the product was adipic acid, “a solid industrial product commonly used in food and to make everyday household items such as nylon.” Only a minimal amount of the substance spilled. It was contained in a small area on CN property and did not contaminate any water supply, according to CN ...


As of this post, still no links to any protests.

Meanwhile, in Quebec ...


> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is ruling out military intervention when it comes to dismantling rail blockades as the union president for Quebec provincial police asks for assistance.
> 
> “Our focus is very much on resolving this peacefully for the long term,” Trudeau told reporters in Saint-Jérôme, Que., on Wednesday. “But, as I’ve said many times, I do not think it is ever appropriate to send in the military against Canadian citizens.”
> 
> His remarks come on the heels of a letter from Pierre Veilleux, the president of the union representing 5,400 Sûreté du Québec police officers, to Quebec Premier François Legault ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Mar 2020)

And survey says ....


> A new poll suggests Canadians weren’t happy with Justin Trudeau’s handling of the natural-gas pipeline dispute in British Columbia that led to nationwide rail and road blockades mounted in solidarity with Indigenous leaders who oppose the project.
> 
> According to the Leger Marketing survey, 61 per cent of respondents said they were dissatisfied with the way the prime minister has handled the  blockade file.
> 
> The numbers also suggest most Canadians blame the federal government for the crisis that erupted after supporters of Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs were arrested in B.C. while trying to block the Coastal GasLink pipeline project in early February — even though the project was approved by the province ...


More @ link, here @ the Leger poll page and in attached excerpt from the Leger results on the blockade/protest issue and on who's people feel is responsible - most of the rest of the survey deals with Canada's record on Indigenous issues, including how people feel on whether "Indigenous peoples should have a veto
the right to say no when it comes to large infrastructure projects that need to be built on land, they claim to be their own."  Spoiler alert: almost evenly split yes and no, with 17% don't know/don't answer.


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Mar 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> As the situation was/is unfolding, here's an update on what _was_ in the cars in question ...As of this post, still no links to any protests.
> 
> Meanwhile, in Quebec ...



The PM needs to brush up on his Constitutional Law and National Defence Act.  He can’t stop a province’s Attorney General from requesting the Canadian Armed Forces to provide Aid to the Civil Power.  He could of course tell the MND to order the CDS to refuse the request. Then the comparisons will start that at least his Old Man had a pair of balls on him.  It seems that Junior keeps his in his wife’s purse.

:2c:
G2G


----------



## Weinie (4 Mar 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The PM needs to brush up on his Constitutional Law and National Defence Act.  He can’t stop a province’s Attorney General from requesting the Canadian Armed Forces to provide Aid to the Civil Power. _* He could of course tell the MND to order the CDS to refuse the request*_. Then the comparisons will start that at least his Old Man had a pair of balls on him.  It seems that Junior keeps his in his wife’s purse.
> 
> :2c:
> G2G



Though this might have been superseded, don't believe that the MND has the authority to "order" the CDS to do anything. Although the link below is dated (and marked Secret, released through ATI), I haven't seen any changes to the NDA or Act ITO authorities of MND

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/dnd-mdn/migration/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/transition-books.pdf

Not trying to pick a fight here GTG. We all know how Ottawa can (and often) works.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Mar 2020)

Weinie, no slight taken, my friend. It’s both in §18 of the NDA:


> Appointment, rank and duties of Chief of Defence Staff
> 
> 18 (1) The Governor in Council may appoint an officer to be the Chief of the Defence Staff, who shall hold such rank as the Governor in Council may prescribe and who shall, subject to the regulations and *under the direction of the Minister*, be charged with the control and administration of the Canadian Forces.
> 
> ...



And specifically for ACP, the fourth bullet on page 4 of the ATI’d ref (nice one, BTW  ).  MND can direct.

I would not be at all surprised if Quebec asked the CDS for ACP, that there’d be some flopping. Either Sajjan would direct Vance to stand down on the request while the PM ’keeps the dialogue going’, or Vance would take one for Team Red and would find a way for the Minister to not even have to tell him (Vance) to refuse the request. 



Regards
G2G


----------



## Haggis (5 Mar 2020)

My union asks for unreasonable stuff all the time. 

In that the request for ALEA/ACP is to be based on circumstances where the situation is clearly beyond the ability of _law enforcement _ (and not their union) to address, I wonder if the Commander(s) of the SQ are ready to admit defeat?

Secondly, QR&O 23.08(c) gives the CDS the leeway to reject the request oif he deems is to not be valid.  No MND direction required.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Mar 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The PM needs to brush up on his Constitutional Law and National Defence Act.  He can’t stop a province’s Attorney General from requesting the Canadian Armed Forces to provide Aid to the Civil Power.


IF he was quoted correctly, he said it's "inappropriate", not that he _couldn't_.



			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> He could of course tell the MND to order the CDS to refuse the request. Then the comparisons will start that at least his Old Man had a pair of balls on him.


1000 times  :nod:


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Mar 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> My union asks for unreasonable stuff all the time.
> 
> In that the request for ALEA/ACP is to be based on circumstances where the situation is clearly beyond the ability of _law enforcement _ (and not their union) to address, I wonder if the Commander(s) of the SQ are ready to admit defeat?
> 
> Secondly, QR&O 23.08(c) gives the CDS the leeway to reject the request oif he deems is to not be valid.  No MND direction required.



Good point for #1...seems “they’re not there yet...”

#2 is how it would likely go down, and there will be ‘no influence’ from PM/MND...

Regards
G2G


----------



## captloadie (5 Mar 2020)

Just so it is clear, the CDS does not get asked directly for support. Nor can he offer support directly. Requests come in from provinces normally get filtered through to the Minister of Public safety, who sends a Request for Assistance to the MND. The MND will then make a decision to authorize the assistance and task the CDS to provide said assistance. There is usually a lot of back and forth between the MPS, MND, and the provinces (with advice from the CDS) to ensure the scope of the assistance is precise. There are often things that are asked for that are not provided because they were not authorized by the MND.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Mar 2020)

Even some traditionally left o' centre media are underwhelmed by the PM ...


> Is the curtain coming down on the Justin Trudeau era in Canadian politics?
> 
> When the next election rolls around, both the Conservative and Green parties will have new leaders. Even NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh is newish.
> 
> ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Mar 2020)

First Nation wants anti-pipeline group to apologize for protest outside premier’s home

The Beecher Bay band says an anti-pipeline group breached protocol in not asking permission to enter the band’s territory when it protested outside the premier’s home, and it wants an apology.

Early on Feb. 18, members of Extinction Rebellion, claiming solidarity with the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs who oppose the Coastal GasLink pipeline in northern B.C., planned to blockade Premier John Horgan’s driveway to prevent him from getting to the B.C. legislature for delivery of the budget.

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/first-nation-wants-anti-pipeline-group-to-apologize-for-protest-outside-premier-s-home-1.24090716


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Mar 2020)

As much as I enjoy the protesters being hoisted on their petard, I am not going to support having to "request permission from anyone" to protest, a dangerous path that is.


----------



## Haggis (5 Mar 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Even some traditionally left o' centre media are underwhelmed by the PM ...



Trudeau survived SNC, JWR, blackface, India and Norman and still won the last election.  He'll survive this and look decisive in the end.  Remember, today's Liberal party is more of a personality cult that a political organization.  They will tank the next election without Trudeau.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Mar 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Trudeau survived SNC, JWR, blackface, India and Norman and still won the last election.  He'll survive this and look decisive in the end.  Remember, today's Liberal party is more of a personality cult that a political organization.  _*They will tank the next election without Trudeau*_.


While I don't think the incumbent is for the axe before the next election, right this second, I think that bit in yellow _may_ still depend on who's running on the other teams (mostly Team Blue), even with JT.


----------



## Brad Sallows (5 Mar 2020)

>Remember, today's Liberal party is more of a personality cult that a political organization.

That might seem true, but only for now.  The LPC has a long history of being a party that coalesces around whatever it takes to win and retain power.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Mar 2020)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Just so it is clear, the CDS does not get asked directly for support. Nor can he offer support directly. Requests come in from provinces normally get filtered through to the Minister of Public safety, who sends a Request for Assistance to the MND. The MND will then make a decision to authorize the assistance and task the CDS to provide said assistance. There is usually a lot of back and forth between the MPS, MND, and the provinces (with advice from the CDS) to ensure the scope of the assistance is precise. There are often things that are asked for that are not provided because they were not authorized by the MND.



The NDA (specifically Sect. 277) and QR&O (23.04) disagree with you.



> NDA §277. Where a riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur, the *attorney general of the province* in which the place where the riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur is situated, on the initiative of the attorney general or on the receipt of notification from a judge of a superior, county or district court having jurisdiction in the place that the services of the Canadian Forces are required in aid of the civil power, may, *by requisition in writing addressed to the Chief of the Defence Staff*, require the Canadian Forces, or such part thereof as the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate considers necessary, to be called out on service in aid of the civil power.



Curious as to what legislation counters this Direct request from AG to CDS? 

Regards
G2G


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## Haggis (5 Mar 2020)

Before a request for ALEA/ACP gets to this level, it must be shown that the substantial resources of the SQ and the RCMP have been deemed insufficient to deal with the situation and the only remaining recourse is to deploy those elements of the CAF which the CDS deems appropriate, and authorized by the minister.  In this case, railroads fall under the category of critical infrastructure so the RCMP would have the jurisdiction to assist the SQ when asked, long before the CAF would get involved. 

We are still a long, long way from a Trudeau Sr. style "just watch me" moment from this PM.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Mar 2020)

Just posting here since this is the most train related thread?

Another train derailment. 2nd in 2 days, this one's. In BC (I've read that a "source" claimed something was put on the track but it's unconfirmed) 

12 train derailments since December. Are train derailments that common?


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## MilEME09 (6 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Just posting here since this is the most train related thread?
> 
> Another train derailment. 2nd in 2 days, this one's. In BC (I've read that a "source" claimed something was put on the track but it's unconfirmed)
> 
> 12 train derailments since December. Are train derailments that common?



https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2018/sser-ssro-2018.html

Only 8% result in derailment


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## AbdullahD (6 Mar 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2018/sser-ssro-2018.html
> 
> Only 8% result in derailment



Very interesting.. 



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Just posting here since this is the most train related thread?
> 
> Another train derailment. 2nd in 2 days, this one's. In BC (I've read that a "source" claimed something was put on the track but it's unconfirmed)
> 
> 12 train derailments since December. Are train derailments that common?



Were did you get that figure from? 12 derailments since december in BC alone??? If you count non-main track and private industries that have yard goats or use cables.. then 12 since December in BC north makes sense (yes exaggerating a little).

In my 3 years of being employed by CNR... in the 219.20 miles from smithers to Prince rupert. Counting DP Intermodal port, Prince rupert grain, RTI coal, pinnacle pellets and the multiple different mills...

I have heard of, been involved in or seen.. one sec need to count.. 
2 in 2017 from nov to end of year.. 
3 from DP world
2 from RTI
2 from the port (Alaska barge, pinnacle, raymont etc)
1 from 2020
PRG had an incident too while kicking too
so 11 derailments just off the top of my head... just on our west run only including industries and port. So fourty percent? Chance of seeing a derailment each month on our west run? This only counting what I remember of the top of my head or have heard of.. very good chance I've missed a bunch of minor ones like a car derailing, but able to re-rail using a unit etc.

Again this is no way an authoritative list and should not be used as fact (in fact if CN is watching ^^ none of these were CNs fault lol)
Abdullah


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## Jarnhamar (6 Mar 2020)

Thanks I was hoping you would chime in.

It looked like 12 derailments Canada wide since December, 3 in BC.


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## AbdullahD (6 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Thanks I was hoping you would chime in.
> 
> It looked like 12 derailments Canada wide since December, 3 in BC.



Yeah, I have severe reservations regarding the honesty of those statistics. I personally feel.. however rightly or wrongly the number of derailments is much higher.

I can only speak to CN and CP.. brother in law is a track maintenance foreman for CP. BNSF, SRY and a wack load of other short lines or class ones that do not have a lot of track in Canada.. I know nothing about. 

I personally suspect, that reporting of derailments is not always.. shall I say "required". So transport Canada has a very.. limited view of the situation. My time and my chats with my brother in law, who has much more seniority on railroads then I do, has led me to this belief. Take as you will, I could be wrong.

But as a neat aside, transport Canada has been showing up and doing random ride alongs this year.. quite interesting occurence I think.

Abdullah


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## Altair (6 Mar 2020)

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> Possibly - but I'd be willing to bet that the weather over the last 2 days has alot to do with it.  Wait until Monday-Tuesday when its above 0c again.


And the last blockade is down, no bloodshed.  These thing tend to run out of steam when denied oxygen.


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## captloadie (6 Mar 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The NDA (specifically Sect. 277) and QR&O (23.04) disagree with you.
> 
> Curious as to what legislation counters this Direct request from AG to CDS?
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing with what the regulations may say, I'm only putting it out there on how things actually occur. There were two occurrences this summer in which we assisted law enforcement officials, and the process used was as I stated. As mentioned by Haggis, the RCMP is the organization responsible to respond before the CAF. When they can't fulfill a request, their Minister (MPS) makes the request to us. And, let us not forget, that in this day and age, every response is a political response first and foremost. Even when a request is within his lanes as per regulation, there must always be a review by those organizations that are concerned about the political and legal ramifications of acting.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Mar 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> And the *last* blockade is down ...


Don't want to be jinxing it by using absolutes like that  ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Mar 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Y
> But as a neat aside, transport Canada has been showing up and doing random ride alongs this year.. quite interesting occurence I think.
> 
> Abdullah



Yea I found Surface group was just a tad to "close" to the rail companies, that was changing near the end of my career, i think some more forceful leadership was needed.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Mar 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> And the last blockade is down, no bloodshed.  These thing tend to run out of steam when denied oxygen.



You rekon the RCMP are going to go after those AK47 assault rifles on the reserve/s in Quebec now?


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## YZT580 (6 Mar 2020)

not likely.  They are too busy confiscating 22's from farmers that have them tucked up behind the stove


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## mariomike (6 Mar 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> In my 3 years of being employed by CNR... in the 219.20 miles from smithers to Prince rupert. Counting DP Intermodal port, Prince rupert grain, RTI coal, pinnacle pellets and the multiple different mills...
> 
> I have heard of, been involved in or seen.. one sec need to count..
> 2 in 2017 from nov to end of year..
> ...



Derailment. I bet when the crew calls it in over the radio it's, "We're on the ground!!!"

Abdullah, I hope you stay safe, and enjoy your career.


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## my72jeep (6 Mar 2020)

I was contracting to CP a few years back on a weed sprayer. I was siting on a track in the main Winnipeg yard when the cars on the next track being moved for me derailed. I sat there for  20 seconds watching as the cars jumped the tracks and took out both the north and south CP tracks through Winnipeg cutting the country in half. Took them 2 hours to get trains moving as only other options was sending trains through Chicago. It’s very humbling to watch a derailment happen 3 feet away.


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## Good2Golf (6 Mar 2020)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I'm not arguing with what the regulations may say, I'm only putting it out there on how things actually occur. There were two occurrences this summer in which we assisted law enforcement officials, and the process used was as I stated. As mentioned by Haggis, the RCMP is the organization responsible to respond before the CAF. When they can't fulfill a request, their Minister (MPS) makes the request to us. And, let us not forget, that in this day and age, every response is a political response first and foremost. Even when a request is within his lanes as per regulation, there must always be a review by those organizations that are concerned about the political and legal ramifications of acting.



I get, trust me. Past CDS SA and I have more than a few coffees together in 101’s cafeteria and muse about how life would be so much better I f it was so simpler...

#TheoryVsPractice

:nod:


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## Altair (6 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You rekon the RCMP are going to go after those AK47 assault rifles on the reserve/s in Quebec now?


No.


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## Haggis (6 Mar 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You reckon the RCMP are going to go after those AK47 assault rifles on the reserve/s in Quebec now?



First, the RCMP are not the police of criminal jurisdiction on those reserves.  It's either the local police (i.e. Kahnawake Peacekeepers, Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service) or OPP/SQ, if summoned.

Second, they didn't go after them in 1990 - 1994, so why now?

Third, are you going to execute a raid based on the word of a politician? Last time that happened, there were no WMDs found in Iraq.


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## Kat Stevens (6 Mar 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> First, the RCMP are not the police of criminal jurisdiction on those reserves.  It's either the local police (i.e. Kahnawake Peacekeepers, Akwesasne Mohawk Police Service) or OPP/SQ, if summoned.
> 
> Second, they didn't go after them in 1990 - 1994, so why now?
> 
> Third, are you going to execute a raid based on the word of a politician? Last time that happened, there were no WMDs found in Iraq.



Fourth, if there were AK-47s on site, they're already back across the river on the New York side.


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## Altair (7 Mar 2020)

I get the feeling like the focus on the supposed AK47s was a trap/deflection. 

One of those times that Altair correctly predicts the course of events and the conversations immediately switches to assault rifles as opposed to the peaceful end of the rail blockades across canada.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> I get the feeling like the focus on the supposed AK47s was a trap/deflection.
> 
> One of those times that Altair correctly predicts the course of events and the conversations immediately switches to assault rifles as opposed to the peaceful end of the rail blockades across canada.



Less of a deflection and more using you as a soundboard to point out hypocrisy among the governments anti-gun platform. 

So all the blockaids are down now?


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## The Bread Guy (7 Mar 2020)

Altair said:
			
		

> And the *last* blockade is down, no bloodshed ...





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... So all the blockaids are down now?


About those absolutes like "last" ... 

_*"In Caledonia, Ontario, one of the lesser-known Wet’suwet’en solidarity blockades has no end in sight yet.  APTN’s Allana McDougall has this update from Six Nations territory ..."*_

Granted, it's not a _rail_ blockade, but still ...


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## The Bread Guy (7 Mar 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/stats/rail/2018/sser-ssro-2018.html
> 
> Only 8% result in derailment


... on _main_ lines - +50% on _non_-main lines according to the same source.  I'll leave those more expert to explain the difference between the types of lines.


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## AbdullahD (7 Mar 2020)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... on _main_ lines - +50% on _non_-main lines according to the same source.  I'll leave those more expert to explain the difference between the types of lines.



I am in no way an authoritative figure on railways.. my hire on date was September 2017. So please keep that in mind, I can and do make mistakes and I am continually learning intricacies of the rules I did not know before. Any rate I will try to explain.

Main track is basically anywhere the RTC (Rail traffic Controller) can tell you what to do. Either through OCS, ABS or CTC authorities.

Non-Main Track is 105 territory, that includes yards, dark sidings and industries. 

If you follow this link, click on definitions and it will better explain Main track and non-main track. https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/railsafety/rules-tco167.htm

Also I may have missed this earlier if it is 12 derailments in Canada since December on Main track only.. that could be correct. Non-Main track is were the majority of derailments happen (in my experience as well as by these statistics to apparently).

Any rate that link is to the authoritative source for railway rules in Canada. So if anything there contradicts me, I am wrong.

Abdullah


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## The Bread Guy (7 Mar 2020)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I am in no way an authoritative figure on railways.. my hire on date was September 2017. So please keep that in mind, I can and do make mistakes and I am continually learning intricacies of the rules I did not know before. Any rate I will try to explain.
> 
> Main track is basically anywhere the RTC (Rail traffic Controller) can tell you what to do. Either through OCS, ABS or CTC authorities.
> 
> ...


Thanks for more of the rest of the story - much appreciated!


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## mariomike (12 Jun 2021)

From reading our residential school discussion, I was curious to know how First Nations voters cast their ballots in Canadian federal elections.

Saw this from 2016, if anyone is interested.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-on-reserve-voting-2015-1.3677098
		


( Not sure what impact - if any - it will have on the next election.  I have read, "A week is a long time in politics." Also, not sure if it was previously posted in these 64 pages. My apologies in advance if it was. )



> 2015 On-Reserve Election Results
> Polling divisions entirely on-reserve only
> The New Democrats won the largest share of the vote in these polling divisions. But their share dropped dramatically from 2011, to 46.4 per cent from 58.4 per cent. The Liberals saw an increase of almost 28 points to 40.5 per cent, while the Conservatives dropped precipitously to just 9.3 per cent.





> 2015 On-Reserve Election Results
> Includes polling divisions partially and entirely on reserve
> At 39.2 per cent, the New Democrats took the largest share of the vote in on-reserve polling divisions. The Liberals finished second with 35.4 per cent, followed by the Conservatives at 20 per cent.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Oct 2021)

Interesting story about someone claiming to be First Nations.



> Indigenous or pretender?





> Carrie Bourassa, one of the country’s most-esteemed Indigenous health experts, claims to be Métis, Anishinaabe and Tlinglit. Some of her colleagues say there’s no evidence of that.



Generally when these stories pop up it seems muddled when trying to decypher if someone is what they claim to be. Less so much with this one.



> Bourassa didn’t offer any genealogical evidence that she is Métis, Anishnaabe or Tlingit.* Instead, she said she became Métis in her 20s, when she was adopted into the community by a Métis friend of her grandfather*, Clifford Laroque, who has since died.


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## mariomike (27 Oct 2021)

Naive, but sincere question. Can't they do a DNA test?


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Interesting story about someone claiming to be First Nations.
> 
> ​
> Generally when these stories pop up it seems muddled when trying to decypher if someone is what they claim to be. Less so much with this one.



Indigenous Walt!


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## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2021)

Forgot the link to the story


			https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/preview/carrie-bourassa-indigenous


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## Remius (28 Oct 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Forgot the link to the story
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/newsinteractives/preview/carrie-bourassa-indigenous


This is like stolen valour.


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## Booter (28 Oct 2021)

The various bands are against DNA testing. Quite strongly. Googling it- there’s scores of articles on it. They won’t let it be used for membership or determining status. There’s lots of theories on why- but since it’s made to be this very loose thing of adoptions and being in the culture they have thousands of stories like this one.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

Booter said:


> The various bands are against DNA testing. Quite strongly. Googling it- there’s scores of articles on it. They won’t let it be used for membership or determining status. There’s lots of theories on why- but since it’s made to be this very loose thing of adoptions and being in the culture they have thousands of stories like this one.



So what you're saying is 'Indian Status' (and all the free stuff that designation entails) is a 'fluid' thing?

Wow, I had no idea


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## Booter (28 Oct 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> So what you're saying is 'Indian Status' (and all the free stuff that designation entails) is a 'fluid' thing?
> 
> Wow, I had no idea


I think the way it’s phrased is it’s up to the “Nation”. And it can be quite…fluid


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## Eaglelord17 (28 Oct 2021)

I know a person who is Status Indian without being even 1% native. Their Grandmother married a Native man and she already had kids before the marriage. He adopted the kids and they then gained Native status, which in turn was passed on to their kids. If they don't make a kid with someone who is Status Indian though their kids won't have status.


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## Dale Denton (28 Oct 2021)

New to this thread, so correct me if this has been discussed before.

Why not make all 3 territories into provinces? This would add additional ridings as well to beef up indigenous federal representation in the HoC no?


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## Weinie (28 Oct 2021)

LoboCanada said:


> New to this thread, so correct me if this has been discussed before.
> 
> Why not make all 3 territories into provinces? This would add additional ridings as well to beef up indigenous federal representation in the HoC no?


Ridings are based on population, not provinces. (with some legacy aberrations)


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## daftandbarmy (28 Oct 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I know a person who is Status Indian without being even 1% native. Their Grandmother married a Native man and she already had kids before the marriage. He adopted the kids and they then gained Native status, which in turn was passed on to their kids. If they don't make a kid with someone who is Status Indian though their kids won't have status.



Which reminds me of...


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## The Bread Guy (27 Oct 2022)

Bumped with the latest ....


> Canada's civilian spy service assessed whether First Nations land rights activists who disrupt trains should be classed as a "terrorist threat" to national security alongside the likes of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, according to declassified documents.
> 
> But the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) eventually decided the label wouldn't stick after probing the issue in secret, internal studies whose findings were shared with government officials in an unclassified March 2021 counterterror briefing.
> 
> ...


If link doesn't work, text also attached for purposes of research, private study or education under the Fair Dealing provisions of Canada's Copyright Act.


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