# Reserve Infantry Officer - Rank potential and timelines?



## Mr. Ted (30 Mar 2005)

A question I've been pondering as I plan for the future:

As an officer in the reserves in an infantry unit, I'm curious what the highest rank one might attain over, say, a 15 to 20 year career.   I'm also interested in timelines, expectations, etc.  I'm sure this varies from militia unit to unit and certainly individual to individual but in general terms, let me see if I've got this straight:

An officer cadet may take a year to make 2nd L.T. after CAP.  Two years after that, if all progresses well, L.T.  Three years or so as a platoon commander may make one Captain and senior platoon commander.

Is it another four years or so on average before one may take command of a company as a Major?  Are there more than the two or three majors needed to run the company or two most militia units field?  Or are you more likely to end up in an administrative position or two instead of commanding a coy?

Five years later, Lt.Col?  Is that the average?  I assume most units are being run by Lt. Cols with an "honourary" colonel as more of a figurehead.

If I'm way off on the above, please advise.

Now, how many general officers exist in Ontario in the Army Reserves and if so, are their positions purely administrative in nature or do they still "get out in the field?"  I'm assuming there must be at least a senior colonel, or possible a Brig. General reservist overseeing the army reserve in Ontario.  Or do these rare birds only exist in the hallowed halls of DND HQ in Ottawa?

Any info would be appreciated. 

Mr. Ted


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## COBRA-6 (30 Mar 2005)

More or less correct, a few points...

1. You get promoted to 2Lt right after CAP, or on enrolement if you have a degree. One year as a 2Lt, plus platoon comd's crse = LT.

2. After that your timelines are about right, but they are the minimum. It all depends how many officers are in your unit, as you can't be promoted unless there is an open spot. Most units have 3 Major's posns, OC Rifle, OC Admin, DCO. 

3. After 3 yrs as a CO, most retire. Some go on to Bde HQ as an assistant COS, or Deputy Bde Comd. After that you may get the chance to command a brigade at the rank of Col. After that, maybe promoted to BGen as an area DComd, or a job at NDHQ/LFDTS, but those are exceptions, not the rule.

4.  Reserve CO's and Comd's go to the field, but mostly to visit training, or to run exercises etc... you won't be leading battalion or brigade attacks... the highest level reserves train at is company.


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## pbi (31 Mar 2005)

Your proposed timelines are pretty close, but they are "textbook". What I have seen in our Res CBG is that most Res officers take much longer to qualify, simply because as they get older, their life style changes and they have less and less time to dedicate to taking the required courses. The brand new 2Lt who is basically a young college kid with few responsibilities gradually becomes a person with a job, a family (that usually grows...) and other outside demands that compete with his Army Reserve service. 

Cheers


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## Mr. Ted (31 Mar 2005)

Thank you for your replies.  I appreciate the info as I am trying to plan long-term here around a few career changes, a possible family expansion and some serious motorcycling, he he he.

I understand the Reserve Platoon Commander's course is a hurdle and a half.  Any input from those who have survived it?

What is the course required to move from junior officer to senior officer, i.e. Capt to Major?  Is it a true "Company Commander's Course?" or some such animal and if so, what's it like?

Progression to Lt. Col in the reserves - another course or time in as Major?

Mr. Ted


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## Jarnhamar (31 Mar 2005)

Assuming your question is not just idle curiosity, your going to make a horrible officer if your only intention is to rise through the ranks as fast as possible.

Shitty platoon commanders make for shitty company and battalion commanders.

If your simply curious though, then I appologize for the assumption.


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## Mr. Ted (1 Apr 2005)

Ghost, you are a bit of an ass.

As I stated several times, I am looking at long-term planning and have posted several intelligent questions and replies on this board over the last year.

Replies like yours drag the validity of discussion boards down.  

I could go on and on about your junior rank mess discussion style, but what's the point.  You won't get it.

You succesfully brought this thread down 50 IQ points in about three sentences.  That's quite an accomplishment.

You should be very proud.

Mr. Ted


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Apr 2005)

Actually "Mr Ted", I thought his post was bang-on, I don't think any Jr. Ranks wish to follow a leader who has their "long-term planning" in mind, they wish to know the guy they are following is thinking in the very-short term, like this patrol/ attack/ training/ etc.

Quote,
_I could go on and on about your junior rank mess discussion style_

....just a touch pompous don't ya think?


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## Trinity (1 Apr 2005)

Bruce beat me to it...

also....

Diplomacy is a good skill to learn as an officer.  If you are to react that quickly
and that harsh to one person you perceive as an idiot, you won't last long as an officer.

Pointing out someone else's flaws(such as the jr. ranks mess thread), instead of addressing the issue 
of being negative is a "red herring"... it has no validity in the argument at hand.  You are trying to 
make him look bad to win the argument instead of arguing fact.

To me, your post only serves to bolster his.


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## Mr. Ted (1 Apr 2005)

The lack of logic in this psuedo-argument is stunning.

A comissioned member is supposed to do no research about his long-term time in the army as that's too "long-term"?   What kind of ridiculous supposition is that?   That someone who is concerned with where he may be and what he might be doing means he isn't thinking about the men in his platoon?

It would seem to me that the time to determine all of this is exactly now - before entering - so that one's attention can be properly spent on those in your platoon once in uniform.

Talk about your typical stereotypes and anti-officer grumbling being applied here.

If a future NCM came on and said, "I don't care what or where I'll be once I join as long as I'm in an infantry platoon" you would probably be the first to jump all over him and say, "Do a little research, plan your decisions carefully, blah blah blah."

I am trying to determine what the future holds and how long one can expect to be doing certain jobs and in what rank.   Not once did I say, "I'm trying to make general in four years and I wanna know...."

How do you know I don't want to be a career captain and my questions were to ascertain whether or not that would be commonplace?

Maybe you just want a convenient excuse to bash a potential officer while you can?

Mr. Ted


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Apr 2005)

Quote,
_If a future NCM came on and said, "I don't care what or where I'll be once I join as long as I'm in an infantry platoon" you would probably be the first to jump all over him and say, "Do a little research, plan your decisions carefully, blah blah blah_."

...no I would just wish him good luck, sorry lad, but you are barking up the wrong tree with that one.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Apr 2005)

The next CDS ladies and gentlemen.   I hope you become an Infantry officer because the platoon will have fun sorting you out.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Apr 2005)

P.S.  how does one retire from the reserves as a Pte.


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## Trinity (1 Apr 2005)

Mr. Ted.

Please look at my Avatar and figure out what trade I am in.

I am not in the habit of bashing people, insulting people, or flaming people.

I did not submit a pseudo argument, nor do i like bashing potential officers.

I have, however, served as a MCpl before being an officer.  I have enough leadership
experience to realize that your rash and quick behavior, now in BOTH posts show poor
restraint (if only for a moment).  I am sure that you are only acting at the moment to save
face and protect yourself, which I understand and have made the same mistake.

The original offending post did not mean to insult you if you read it.  He did appologize
ahead of time if he took you wrong.  You then proceeded to flame him.

I am suggesting that such a public display is not only a poor reflect upon yourself, you have
already noticed the troops will eat you alive if you try that.  Maybe a more diplomatic approach
to a distainfull post would be in order. I post this not to insult you, but to help you see that 
being an officer is a totally new world.  What you want to say vs. what you do say will be
two totally different things.

Best of luck in your enrollment.

Regards

Trinity


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## Mr. Ted (1 Apr 2005)

Trinity - I appreciate your post.  Well stated.

However, you make a point earlier about logic and the flow of logic in an argument.  The point you make is specifically the lack of logic in attacking a personal fault and applying that to the argument.

That's exactly what's going on here in all the negative posting so far on this thread. 

I will state again exactly what I hoped to determine by making this post:  What an officer in a reserve reg't can expect in terms of a 15 or 20 year career - what happens when, what rank occurs when, what job one might be assigned(i.e. coy commander or admin pos) and at what point.  The question around how many general officers in the reserves are running around is simple curiosity.  

I state again - what's wrong with investigating the future impact and course your life may take if you enter into an entirely new profession?  When I discuss rank progression I think of training time - balancing home and work.  I also think about responsibility.  I think about pressure, I think about nerves and I think about the potential for screwing up at a higher pay grade.  These are real concerns of mine - they should be of any potential officer. 

If you are familiar with me I've stated in many threads before that in my opinion commanding a platoon is what appeals to me most - certainly more than this unsatisfying job on civvy street.

So when a disproportionate negative response is hurled at what I felt to be a very appropriate question, I get my back up.  Anyone would.  If someone enrols as a private, it's natural to wonder if in 15 or 20 years, he may end up a master warrant.  It's normal to question how long it may take, what courses are there to be passed, what expectations are there.  

My junior ranks line was simple - in my junior ranks mess the most frequent topic of conversation was an ongoing argument regarding which Monty Python movie to watch.  His comment was at that level.  Not much of value there.  Just a rash judgement and rapid condemnation.

So I stand by my original post.

Instead of reading it, some people chose to "read into" it.

They read into it wrong.

Mr. Ted


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

What is a Pvt. anyway?   The Canadian Army abbreviates Private as "Pte."  - always has and always will.

I get the giggles when I see the Americans abbreviate it that way, cause all I can think of is "Pervert."  ;D


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## bossi (1 Apr 2005)

Mr. Ted said:
			
		

> Ghost, you are a bit of an ***.
> 
> As I stated several times, I am looking at long-term planning and have posted several intelligent questions and replies on this board over the last year.
> 
> ...



Wow ...
Mr. Ted, you should be ashamed.
Certainly, you can argue that you haven't yet received any formal leadership/military etiquette training, however ... there is no excuse for your behaviour - "two wrongs do not make a right", and I'll give you a little hint:  Talking down to any soldier is a barrier to mutual respect (so don't be surprised if they don't respect you, if you don't respect them).



			
				Mr. Ted said:
			
		

> ... I state again - what's wrong with investigating the future impact and course your life may take if you enter into an entirely new profession?   When I discuss rank progression I think of training time - balancing home and work.   I also think about responsibility.   I think about pressure, I think about nerves and I think about the potential for screwing up at a higher pay grade.   These are real concerns of mine - they should be of any potential officer.
> 
> If you are familiar with me I've stated in many threads before that in my opinion commanding a platoon is what appeals to me most - certainly more than this unsatisfying job on civvy street.
> 
> So when a disproportionate negative response is hurled at what I felt to be a very appropriate question, I get my back up.   Anyone would.   If someone enrols as a private, it's natural to wonder if in 15 or 20 years, he may end up a master warrant.   It's normal to question how long it may take, what courses are there to be passed, what expectations are there.   ...



Frankly, I disagree with your pseudo argument.
I view your "reasoning" as being rife with all the wrong reasons, motivation, and considerations with respect to being an officer (e.g. "... commanding a platoon is what appeals to me most ..." - Why?  You come across as if it's an ego trip, not a "calling".

As for "normal expectations, etc." - sorry, but have to also disagree with you there - I can't tell you how many excellent/superb soldiers and officers I've met who joined as a private or officer cadet, who had absolutely no expectations of making it further than private trained, maybe corporal, or simply obtaining their commission - and their humility has stood them in good stead throughout their long and successful careers.

No, sorry - from what I've seen of you so far, you don't have the right stuff.
Not sure what your unsatisfying job is on civvie street, but ... it's worrisome if your motivation for taking your commission is because you're a failure in whatever your civvie career is.


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## Mr. Ted (1 Apr 2005)

Well this seems to have struck a chord. Maybe an out-of-key one, but a chord all right.

I responded at the same level to an off-colour comment, that's all.  I find it funny no one has chastised the first negative reply for making assumptions at various levels.  As well as the language.  Military etiquette?  Didn't see much.  In terms of professionalism in that comment, I didn't see much either.  

I also find it odd that anyone would be so horrible offended at the notion that someone investigating career paths would like to know where the hell they might be in 5 years, 10, 15, and what they'll be doing when they get there.  Any officer who doesn't have a pretty clear vision of what they want to do when they join(i.e. command a platoon and eventually maybe the next step) would strike me as odd.  You had no vision of the future when you entered basic?  Everyone I can remember in my basic coy did.  We all had dreams.  Something to do with the optimism of youth, I suppose.  I also remember everyone discussing the future and where they saw themselves.  Never admired the professionalism of a warrant and thought to yourself, "I'd like to shoot for that one day.  Wonder how I can find out how he did it? "  

If I alluded that the military calls as something potentially much more fufulling than a civvy job - my God man, what's wrong with that?  Did I say failure once?  What's with all the assumptions?  This is what I'm getting at!  People are reading into what I'm saying - not reading what I'm saying.  I'm doing just fine on civvy street - but it's hardly a calling. Is the whole thrust of military recruiting not based on that theme?  Here's something more fulfiling than civvy life! 

I will retire my argument with this - don't condemn a man for looking down the road before he gets on it.  There is so much change inherent in our military system that I feel any info I can get before making a decision is the smart thing to do, including what my job might be 10 years from now.  That's all, through and through.  It seems an awful lot of supposition and innuendo has occured.  None of it terribly on target.

It seems to me those opposed to that question are projecting what they dislike of officers onto an unrelated argument here and attacking it.  

Mr. Ted


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## Island Ryhno (1 Apr 2005)

I believe that Bossi is an officer, so any "projection of dislike to officers" would be upon himself. I think what really got everyone danders up was two things, 1) Your statement made you look like a careerist, most military types are not in it to become a general or to see how much money or prestige they can gather and it upsets people when they think that they may have to follow you into combat. As an example of thought...would you do something stupid to endanger your men for the sake of career progression. It becomes a dangerous game on the backs of NCM's etc. 2) Talking down to NCO's/NCM's with your "junior ranks mess" comment shows that you have little regard for the men that would be potentially serving beneath you. No one wants to be talked down to and any assumption (perceived or not) that you are better than your men is not taken lightly by anyone. A good leader has good restraint and knows how to deal with issues as they arise, if a minor comment likes Ghost's caused a flare well then what would some really hairy situation do to you. So I don't think that anyone is really burning you for looking into your future but, go about it properly is what they are saying I think. Remember this is a small army, you may find yourself teamed up with someone on here one day.


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## Trinity (1 Apr 2005)

Yes, he replied a little harshly....

But I believe he has learned from it.  Show me a young officer who
hasn't screwed up big time and not been punished for it (myself included)

I don't think its fair to say he's not officer material.  Other than a two posts
from which he acted in his defense (which caused him to post and display an improper attitude)
I know nothing of this man. I'm not defending his posts as we both know I think they
went overboard and that he should of used diplomacy.

IF he is to become an officer... isn't it best that we have helped him here where he
can learn from his mistake?  I'm not sure if bashing him (correcting him) anymore is going to help
the situation.

Hopefully we can summarize by saying

Mr. Ted - irregardless of your original motives in the thread, by calling someon an (alpha sierrea sierra), you
failed to show respect where as an officer diplomacy would be a better tactic.  Troops will see through
this and eat you alive.  You may have even offended a troop or two by doing so in this thread.  It is important
as an officer to seek responsiblity (which you were to find out what the job is like), but in accepting it also recognize
where you have made mistakes (your post to Ghost) and rectifiying it (an appology?).  We hope this acts
as a good lesson in leadership as the military will hammer many more lessons home as others here have learned.

Blessings

Trinity

(hey, I believe in mercy....  I think he understands.  Lock the thread?)

I think the court of public opinion has crucified him, so lets hope he uses this as a leadership
example.


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## bossi (1 Apr 2005)

Trinity said:
			
		

> ... I don't think its fair to say he's not officer material.   ...



Let's just say "the shot has been fired across his bow", and he can chose to learn from this discussion ... or not.

As for mercy, "spare the rod and spoil the child" - his response was un-officerlike and demonstrated a lack of "firm, fair, and friendly" (which I'm quite certain was noticed by many, and to their credit ... they held their tongues rather than launch into a retaliation of like kind ... hmmmm ... I seem to recall somebody saying "he did it first" ... but, I digress ... I'm not soliciting an insincere apology from anybody ...).

Everybody makes mistakes - whether they chose to learn from this, and whether they learn the correct lessons will determine whether they eventually will, or deserve to be cruxified ... (no religious slight intended - just some trench humour).

Yes, young officers should learn from their mistakes ... before they get somebody killed, regardless of whether it's themselves or their troops (the latter being the greater evil).


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## Meridian (1 Apr 2005)

This is plain idle curiosity. I do not have a pending application to the forces; actually I would be applying ARMD rather than infantry anyway probably (since I was a 21 wannabe in an earlier debacle  ) 

Regardng these questions:

"I understand the Reserve Platoon Commander's course is a hurdle and a half.  Any input from those who have survived it?

What is the course required to move from junior officer to senior officer, i.e. Capt to Major?  Is it a true "Company Commander's Course?" or some such animal and if so, what's it like?

Progression to Lt. Col in the reserves - another course or time in as Major?"


I am curious what the Reserve Plt Cmds course is like, and if there is one for Company OCs, or if it is staff courses that makes the man/woman here?

Lt.Col in the RegF I believe (could be very wrong) is heavily tied to completing staff tours and Staff College courses...  

I guess by question is how different is the reserves than the regf for training.
(I could care less about timelines, Im more interested in what kind of formal, non-ojt requirements exist for progression in the officer ranks).


Thanks!


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## bossi (1 Apr 2005)

Meridian said:
			
		

> What is the course required to move from junior officer to senior officer, i.e. Capt to Major?   Is it a true "Company Commander's Course?" or some such animal and if so, what's it like?



ACT = Advanced Classification Training, either Squadron Comd crse, Dismounted Inf Coy Comd crse, or for old geezers like me the Cbt Tm Comd crse (which was a combined armd/inf crse)



			
				Meridian said:
			
		

> Progression to Lt. Col in the reserves - another course or time in as Major?"



Time in rank plus MCSC, and then the CO's crse if you're selected to comd (and, one would hope that the only prom to LCol in the reserves is to comd ... and not just a pay raise whilst serving ERE ...)



			
				Meridian said:
			
		

> I am curious what the Reserve Plt Cmds course is like, and if there is one for Company OCs, or if it is staff courses that makes the man/woman here?



Already answered, and no - staff crses do not make the man/woman, but MCSC is a Command and Staff crse (i.e. there's more to it than just "staffwork" ...)



			
				Meridian said:
			
		

> Lt.Col in the RegF I believe (could be very wrong) is heavily tied to completing staff tours and Staff College courses...



Only after progressing through coy/sqn comd, and other significant appts
(i.e. staff tours are not the vital pre-requisite to comd ... and again, it's "Command and Staff College")



			
				Meridian said:
			
		

> I guess by question is how different is the reserves than the regf for training.
> (I could care less about timelines, Im more interested in what kind of formal, non-ojt requirements exist for progression in the officer ranks).



The Reserves work part-time, and therefore can sometimes only "skim the top" of various experiences.
The Regular Force do it full-time, and therefore can sometimes get more practice ...
(however, it's important not to paint with too broad a brush ... and I won't get into slagging here ...)

As for "formal non-OJT reqts", there's also the promotion reqt for reservists to participate and be assessed during large ex or ops (e.g. including but not restricted to what used to be called MILCON, or actually going on an op).

Like many pursuits, the more you practice ... the more you've practiced.
At a certain point in time there's no substitute for experience ...


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## Meridian (1 Apr 2005)

Muchos Gracias, Bossi.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Apr 2005)

> I could go on and on about your junior rank mess discussion style, but what's the point.   You won't get it.
> 
> You succesfully brought this thread down 50 IQ points in about three sentences.   That's quite an accomplishment.
> 
> You should be very proud.



One of the best points about this board,   I believe, is that JR Ranks, SNCOs and Officers are all treated as equals with each bringing a unique perspective and point of view to the debates.



> Maybe you just want a convenient excuse to bash a potential officer while you can?



ya you got me. I'm all about bashing future officers because thats just what us jr ranks type do. 

You know what Ted? I do look at things from a jr ranks popint of view because thats exactly what I am.   
Platoon commanders who don't give two shits about the troops they are in charge of irk me. They see their command of a infantry platoon as a little stepping stone, thats it. I see the infantry platoon as something a little more important than a rung in someones carreer ladder. The same can be said for Reserve commanding officers who "suck up" having to do 3 years as a battalion CO before they can "move on to bigger and better things". Regiments spend 3 years with lack luster interest by their CO. Not very professional when it happens.   

Am I saying you are this type of character? Nope not at all. I don't know you. 
I am saying that the tone and direction of your post painted you as quite possibly being one of these types.(To me) You say your not? Well great. I already appologized if I read into your post wrong.

You've stated your a retired private so you've obviously served.   Reading your following posts it looks like you have a real negitive attitude towards the JR Ranks.   I'm not sure if you mean Privates, Corporals and Master Corporals in general or the actual JR ranks mess. 

Your comming across as having a real superority complex and a hate on for the JR Ranks.   Honest question Ted, was your time in Jr Ranks so shitty that you choose to quit as a private? What happened to you as a JR Rank?   Most officers who started out as a private seem to look at their time as a troop as a real lesson learned. I get the feeling you felt it as a waste of time? 

You were a private. You know troops can tell when an officer doesn't respect or like them. In the future, should you become an officer, I hope you show a little more restraint and choose your words well, else you'll probably spend considerable time looking for things you "lost".
Earn the troops respect and they will do their best to make you look good which of course will get you promoted faster   

I don't think people are that concerned over your question about how long it will take to become a CO, It looks to me like people are more focused on how you carried yourself afterwards.


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Apr 2005)

There is a tongue in cheek saying, which sometimes turns out to be prophetic.

"We couldn't make a man out of him, so we made him an officer."

In general I like the officers I work with, and for, and being in a trade that puts me in close contact with them, I have gained an appreciation for some of the stresses they undergo and issues they face.  But there are one or two examples that I am sure most experienced troops could turn to and identify as someone who couldn't cut it with the troops and so decided to go the officer route - and did just as poorly.

Let's hope, Ghost, that Mr. Ted is not one of them.  I'd be loathe to judge him based on some silly remarks on the internet, but what you suggest is not entirely out of the realm of possibility either.  I guess the rest is up to him out in the "real world."


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