# Questions about CF vehicles - design and operation



## RHFC_piper (19 May 2009)

SITUATION:

I am currently working with a defence production company (which will remain nameless, for now) for my first co-op term for Mechanical Engineering Technology, Design and Analysis (Conestoga College). The company designs, develops and produces "holistic survivability" upgrades/products for military vehicles from various countries, including Canada.  Don't ask me what "holistic survivability" upgrades are; there are too many to go into, and the info is sensitive…. I don’t want to risk my co-op (too much).

Anyway, since I’m one of the few people here who have military experience, the only one (as far as I know) who has operational experience, and am working in the engineering department, I am asked questions about our vehicles, equipment and tactics on a daily basis.  I can answer most of the questions effectively, but there have been a few situations where, due to my lack of experience with LAVs (as driver, gunner, CC, maintenance), I have not been able to answer the questions effectively. 
In these situations, I have referred them to someone who may have the answer, or have done my best to find the answer (including citation)… If worse comes to worse, they’re able to contact the DND or the parent company to get answers… it just takes longer.

I’m not looking to be the “answer guy”, I’ve just found myself equally interested in knowing the answers to some of the questions asked… The engineers here have some interesting questions.

Anyway, what I’m looking for is answers to simple questions about obscure features of our LAVs and other vehicles… preferably from maintenance crews, drivers and operators (aka. People with lots of “hands on” time).  I would prefer the “official” answers, but the unofficial answers (eg. What you use the feature for besides it’s design intent) are just as helpful.

So, without further ado;

Question the first:
On the attached photo, you will notice a red circle around an object.  The object appears to be a tube, designed to mount something. The tube does not have a pin or a hole to secure a fastener, so whatever gets mounted will move freely within this tube (or fall out).  It is also positioned directly in front of the drivers hatch, so I’m guessing it’s not intended for a range flag (at least while the vehicle is moving).  My question is; what is this thing, and what is it used for?… and if it’s not used for it’s intended purpose; what do you use it for?

Question 2: 
RE: Wire cutters on the LAV III; is it ever lowered, and if so, why/when? I’ve never seen it lowered, but you can lower it… I’m just wondering why… I’m guessing for transportation / maintenance.

Question C:
Is the winch, in your opinion, useful? Is it positioned well?  What have you used it on (vehicles, trees, people)?

That’s all I have for now… any information on these features would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Teflon (19 May 2009)

In answer to the first question that tube is a mount for one end of the tow cable (although I have rarely ever left the tow cable stowed in that manner prefering to have it stowed in a more quick to deploy manner much like in the picture you posted) There is no pin or fastener because there is a strap that holds that end in place.

Heres a link to a picture on the web that has the cable secured in that manner:

http://data3.primeportal.net/apc/dan_hay/lav/images/lav_016_of_241.jpg

Question 2 - Yes they both can be lowered but unless you are passing under something or stowing the vehicle, the turret one is meant to stay up. As to the driver's one, if you are driving hatches up, you leave it up, if your driving hatches down then lower it as it is possible to shoot it accidently with the turret weapons systems.

Question 3 I can't speak of too much as I have only rarely had a LAV with a winch and have never used it, In most cases I have used the direct tow cable approach to freeing another vehicle or dragging something I've needed moved.

Hope this helps


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 May 2009)

If the winch is the same as the one in the Bison, it can be a real PITA. If you don't know what you're doing, it's real easy to screw up the cable and drum if you don't wind it in under tension. No one should touch it unless they are completely trained on it by a recovery specialist, like a heavy track RCEME type. I've used the Bison one once to extract a cougar and once for self recovery. Most times though a one to one pull with a tow cable and a similar vehicle suffices, and is easier to set up. I'd say it's just an expensive add on that's not used enough to justify having one on every vehicle.


----------



## RCR Grunt (19 May 2009)

Teflon said:
			
		

> Question 2 - Yes they both can be lowered ... it is possible to shoot it accidently with the turret weapons systems.



And how!!  Did this on Op MEDUSA, didn't realize it at the time until we returned to the "friendly" side of the river.  Figured it was a one-in-a-million type of shot.  

The cutter is also lowered when driving using he driver's windshield.



			
				Teflon said:
			
		

> Question 3 I can't speak of too much as I have only rarely had a LAV with a winch and have never used it, In most cases I have used the direct tow cable approach to freeing another vehicle or dragging something I've needed moved.



As an instructor on LAV driver courses, I have become more familiar with the winch.  As long as you follow procedure, it's quite simple and easy to use.  It does take practice, and the only way to practice is to go get stuck.

Although it only has a 12 tonne max pull, it can easily drag a downed LAV through various tree stumps and mole hills, even when the disabled vehicle is less one road wheel and dragging it's suspension through the mud.  Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.  

As for configuration and placement... once set up for either a front or rear pull, switching on the fly becomes a bit of a process.  Most commander's of vehicles equipped with a winch prefer to set it up for one or the other for field exercises, similar to the way the tow cable is configured for quick access and use in the picture you attached to the OP.  Should a switch be required in the field (due to the winch vehicle conducting a self recovery or due to the disabled vehicle's position) there is a bit of work that must be done.  

The only real gripe I have with the winch is the remote control and the outside connection to the vehicle.  Although there is a way to connect the control box in the driver's hatch, the intended connection is through the PEP on the port side of the vehicle.  Enough cable is provided to allow the operator to find suitable cover somewhere outside or run the cable up and into the vehicle.  The smarter way, and better IMO, is to train up your driver to be comfortable and confident with the winch control box, then hook it up internally into the driver's hole (as he shouldn't be getting out anyways) and give verbal commands through ICS or hand signals through periscopes.  As all pers should be hatches down during any kind of pull, this way makes sense in my mind.

During a recent all night recovery marathon, I saw the winch used on a dead vehicle less one road wheel and a large diameter fallen pine.  Good results were had and the young Bombardier running the winch controls was a pro by midnight.  

I've never seen the winch used on people, although it doesn't strike me as a very efficient rescue winch.  Sure, it has the pull to yank the portliest of pers from whatever they have gotten themselves into, but the ride would be painfully slow.  A nylon rope with some dismounts tugging on it would be quicker I think.

Any other questions feel free to PM or whatever.  I can email you my Crew Commander / Gunner / Driver notes, as well as all the MLP's for LAV Dvr if you would like.

Death before dismount!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 May 2009)

Well, that's a better more current explanation than mine


----------



## RHFC_piper (20 May 2009)

Awesome answers!!  Thanks for all the information... it will be put to good use... very good use.  

Thanks again, and be prepared for more questions.

iper:


----------



## RHFC_piper (27 May 2009)

More help needed!!

I'm looking for some pictures;
- Top of front deck of LAVIII (around drivers & engine hatch)
- All angles of LAVIII body (pics from all around the vehicle)
- Inside with and without gear fully loaded (operational pics would be best for loaded)
- Around the turret cage/area on the inside. Specifically the storage area on both sides.
- Same kind of pictures of the TLAV/M113 and the Coyote would also be appreciated.

Stipulations:
- Try not to include members in the pictures (for PERSEC reasons).


These pics will be used to aid in designing stowage systems for mine/blast protection, blast-proof seating systems and other such assemblies.

If you have these types of photos available, or are willing to take them, please PM/IM me and we'll sort out the details.  As well, if you have any direct complaints or ideas regarding stowage, etc.; take a picture of the area of issue and send it to me with a detailed explination of the issue and I will pass it on to the engineers here (IM/PM me for an e-mail addy.)

Thanks again for all the help.


----------



## RHFC_piper (27 May 2009)

Yet another question for those in the know;

WRT the stowage of razor wire, tow cables and the spare tire;

The engineers here are trying to improve the stowage of these items; what are your thoughts on the current positions of these items.

eg; 

Spare tire stored on ramp (covering hatch): good/bad, why?

Tow cables; which is better: stored along side or stored rolled up on front deck?

Razor wire; which is better: stored on top of front deck or under the front of the hull?

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## RCR Grunt (27 May 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Yet another question for those in the know;
> 
> WRT the stowage of razor wire, tow cables and the spare tire;
> 
> ...



Good - Ramp comes down quicker.  
Bad - Can't use the door, therefore air pressure must be maintained in order to drop the ramp without going manual.  A loss of engine power still allows you to drop ramp as long as there is enough air in the secondary tank, the loss of that air forces you to use the manual ramp release or get out some other way.  With the spare in place that leaves you with the air sentry hatches, which may not be an option if you were upside down after a roll over.



> Tow cables; which is better: stored along side or stored rolled up on front deck?



I prefer to keep mine rolled on the engine hatch in the field.  However, some prefer to keep it stowed alongside.  Personal preference.  Stowing rolled on the engine hatch is less secure but quicker to deploy.  It could also be blown apart and shredded by things like RPG's, adding to the shrapnel cloud.  That could also happen while stowed alongside, but at least then it wouldn't be right in the CC's face.  Stowing alongside is a little more secure as it won't be bounced around as much, but is slower to deploy and re-stow.



> Razor wire; which is better: stored on top of front deck or under the front of the hull?



The lesson plans indicate that for highway travel, wire is strapped underneath to allow for a better field of view, and strapped to the engine hatch for field use to prevent it from snagging on brush and whatnot passing under the vehicle possibly causing you to lose your wire.  I can't remember the last time I had wire on my vehicle, possibly for workup for 3-06.  Honestly, wire can be strapped anywhere you see fit and there is room.  It could be strapped tight to the side or even on top of the admin box or if one was so inclined onto the ramp like a spare tire would be.  Again, this is personal preference.



> Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.



I'll try to remember to take those pics for you this afternoon.


----------



## RHFC_piper (27 May 2009)

In regards to the wire and cable stowage; would it be useful/advisable/reasonable to store both on the front deck, one on top of another. 
This is one of the options being explored and would involve a storage system (not just loosely laid and strapped).  The idea would be to store the tow cable on top of the wire over the engine hatch. The reason being; if the tow cable is needed, it is needed quickly. Where as, when the wire is needed, there is time to set it up.  Thoughts?


----------



## Bzzliteyr (27 May 2009)

On the Coyote during training we had an L shaped bracket placed on the front of the vehicle in one of the "nubs" for add on armour.  We hung it off of that and strapped it down.

On Ops.. someone, somewhere along the way invented a rack that was fitted to the front of the trucks that stored a spare tire and with straps, some barbed/razor wire.  I will send you pics when my hamster starts to run again and I am home.

(I think I just offered to send you pics of my rack.. bet you weren't expecting that kind of response to this topic!!)


----------



## MJP (27 May 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Yet another question for those in the know;
> 
> WRT the stowage of razor wire, tow cables and the spare tire;
> 
> ...



Another way to carry the tire is up above the ramp, where the admin box usually sits  Usually laying it on a stretcher or a piece of wood you cut out for that purpose.  It takes some effort to get up and you strap the crap out of it but it sure is great for getting in and out of the door.  Problems with it are the fact that it can add to the moving parts in an explosion if it isn't strapped down really tight.  But if it is done good it doesn't budge much.

Tow cable and wire like Bzz said are CC and/or Pl dependant.  Plus there is always the option to move it around to suit it better for different missions.


----------



## RHFC_piper (27 May 2009)

Again; thanks for all the info... it is, again, being put to good use.

But, I have yet another question... this time, I may need a hand from a maintainer. 
The attached image is a CAD drawing of a set of 4 tap pads right beside the drivers hatch. In the other attached picture (out of assemby manual), it shows 2 of the 4 being used for a guide for the winch cable... and there are two circled... what are they for? There is no other reference to them.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## RCR Grunt (27 May 2009)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> On the Coyote during training we had an L shaped bracket placed on the front of the vehicle in one of the "nubs" for add on armour.  We hung it off of that and strapped it down.
> 
> On Ops.. someone, somewhere along the way invented a rack that was fitted to the front of the trucks that stored a spare tire and with straps, some barbed/razor wire.  I will send you pics when my hamster starts to run again and I am home.
> 
> (I think I just offered to send you pics of my rack.. bet you weren't expecting that kind of response to this topic!!)



You can't do that with a LAV III.  The suspension is too weak up front.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> Another way to carry the tire is up above the ramp, where the admin box usually sits  Usually laying it on a stretcher or a piece of wood you cut out for that purpose.  It takes some effort to get up and you strap the crap out of it but it sure is great for getting in and out of the door.  Problems with it are the fact that it can add to the moving parts in an explosion if it isn't strapped down really tight.  But if it is done good it doesn't budge much.



That's ... interesting?  Seems like it would take an awful lot of effort to get it up there, and be quite dangerous to get down.  I've never seen that done, and personally don't advise anyone to do so for the reasons stated.



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> In regards to the wire and cable stowage; would it be useful/advisable/reasonable to store both on the front deck, one on top of another.
> This is one of the options being explored and would involve a storage system (not just loosely laid and strapped).  The idea would be to store the tow cable on top of the wire over the engine hatch. The reason being; if the tow cable is needed, it is needed quickly. Where as, when the wire is needed, there is time to set it up.  Thoughts?



Stowing things like wire or tow cable or drip pans on the engine hatch, as convenient as it is, interferes with the driver's view out of his right hand periscope.  A stack of wire and tow cable would almost completely block any useful field of view for the driver.


----------



## MJP (27 May 2009)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> That's ... interesting?  Seems like it would take an awful lot of effort to get it up there, and be quite dangerous to get down.  I've never seen that done, and personally don't advise anyone to do so for the reasons stated.



Meh it worked for us.  Getting the tire down up with practice is easy and getting it down easier yet (think of your ramp like a lever or in a emergency gravity is your friend).  We did it after a close call where we almost flipped upside down into river/creek.  The GIB were a whole lot happier having another way to escape the vehicle if we flipped.


----------



## RHFC_piper (28 May 2009)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> Stowing things like wire or tow cable or drip pans on the engine hatch, as convenient as it is, interferes with the driver's view out of his right hand periscope.  A stack of wire and tow cable would almost completely block any useful field of view for the driver.



I figured that was the case, but would this not be a better option than having the wire stowed under the front of the deck where it could be knocked off, and the cable stowed along the side where it is difficult to deploy.  As well, I seem to recall a few issues of the tow cables falling off the side of the vehicle and wrapping around the axle, bring the vehicle to a halt (happend twice in the two weeks I was in country).
We're just looking for potential solutions, ways to improve what's there and more options for those using the vehicle... 'cause in the end, it's up to the CC and CoC to decide the placement of extra kit like that (from what I gather).
The other argument for the placement of the wire and cable, in regards to limiting the drivers view; does the driver not already have a limited view, thus needing direction from the CC anyway? I know we've place wire and cable there before, is it that much of an issue?


----------



## RCR Grunt (28 May 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> But, I have yet another question... this time, I may need a hand from a maintainer.
> The attached image is a CAD drawing of a set of 4 tap pads right beside the drivers hatch. In the other attached picture (out of assemby manual), it shows 2 of the 4 being used for a guide for the winch cable... and there are two circled... what are they for? There is no other reference to them.



Although it looks from your pictures like only two bolts hold the pulley to the chassis, in reality all four tap pads are used to bolt it down.  I checked today for you.



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> The other argument for the placement of the wire and cable, in regards to limiting the drivers view; does the driver not already have a limited view, thus needing direction from the CC anyway? I know we've place wire and cable there before, is it that much of an issue?



The view from the driver's hatch is limited, yes, but the limitation is relative.  Can he see less than if he were hatches up and using the glass windshield?  Of course.  Can he see more than driver's in earlier generations of armoured vehicles when buttoned up?  Absolutely.  The more a driver can see, the less direction is required from the CC, the more he (the CC) can concentrate on fighting the vehicle.  A wide and unobstructed field of view for the driver thus leads to a more efficient and effective crew.



			
				Anyone's Grunt said:
			
		

> You can't do that with a LAV III.  The suspension is too weak up front.



Further to that point, as brought to my attention by a colleague at work today.  Strapping a tire under the front deck or adding a spare tire in a rack to the ramp decreases the max angle of approach and angle of departure with regards to obstacles.  A normally climbable hill may become impassable terrain due to the tire hanging down and digging into the earth and vice versa with the spare tire rack on the ramp.


----------



## c4th (28 May 2009)

MJP said:
			
		

> Another way to carry the tire is up above the ramp, where the admin box usually sits  Usually laying it on a stretcher or a piece of wood you cut out for that purpose.



I would think that if an admin box is not to be mounted during cross-country operations mounting a spare tire via the admin brackets should be out of the question.  

Even though HESCO has come in handy, I wish the originator luck with improving on cargo strap technology.


----------



## MJP (29 May 2009)

Trust No One said:
			
		

> I would think that if an admin box is not to be mounted during cross-country operations mounting a spare tire via the admin brackets should be out of the question.



I don't see the reasoning for what you are saying care to elaborate?

 A spare tire isn't an admin box.  For us at that time it worked well.  The GIB felt safer with the door unblocked, and they were still able to cover their arcs if they were up in the sentry hatches.  I was just offering up an alt solution to RFHC that we found to carry the tire, that didn't block the rear door.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 May 2009)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> Strapping a tire under the front deck or adding a spare tire in a rack to the ramp decreases the max angle of approach and angle of departure with regards to obstacles.  A normally climbable hill may become impassable terrain due to the tire hanging down and digging into the earth and vice versa with the spare tire rack on the ramp.



I can confirm, that was a huge issue in sandy areas and not fun when trying to recover a vehicle stuck up to the hubs in clay(in Afghanistan!).. I have pictures of that to share as well.  I will NOT admit being the CC though it may have been the case.


----------



## MJP (29 May 2009)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I can confirm, that was a huge issue in sandy areas and not fun when trying to recover a vehicle stuck up to the hubs in clay(in Afghanistan!).. I have pictures of that to share as well.  I will NOT admit being the CC though it may have been the case.



Ouch I feel your pain.  We had to use a civvie crane to get a LAV up to it's hubs out of the mud/clay when all other recovery methods failed.  Luckily the same crane had earlier that day lifted my LAV off of the bridge and embankment that we were stuck on so they were in the area.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (29 May 2009)

But my recovery was about 2 hours from the FOB on a presence patrol.  Calling the QRF was an option, but thanks to an incredibly persistent interpreter (who wouldn't let us take the shovel from him!!) we dug ourselves out and using two tow cables, gave it enough love to extract it.


----------



## RHFC_piper (23 Jun 2009)

PHOTOs NEEDED!!

Here's one for the maintainers/VTECHs; I need some pics of the troop area, particularly the floor, of the LAVIII with the benches out and the panels off the floor... The engineers here want to see what's under the floor boards (dirt and grime included). 
Shoot me a message if you can provide some pictures.

Cheers.   iper:


----------



## George Wallace (23 Jun 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> PHOTOs NEEDED!!
> 
> Here's one for the maintainers/VTECHs; I need some pics of the troop area, particularly the floor, of the LAVIII with the benches out and the panels off the floor... The engineers here want to see what's under the floor boards (dirt and grime included).
> Shoot me a message if you can provide some pictures.
> ...




For Security reasons I would say that this is not a good idea.


----------



## RHFC_piper (23 Jun 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For Security reasons I would say that this is not a good idea.



I'm not asking to have these photos posted here... And they are being used to improve the vehicles (specifically, Canadian vehicles).  

If this is an issue to the mods here, then I will cease posting these questions here and rely solely on the few contacts I have to gain the same information...  Or, alternatively; then engineers here will just have to wait (an increadibly long time) for photos from DND/GDLS directly.

Either way, thanks for all the input thus far.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Jun 2009)

Not necessarily that you would post, but someone else may without thinking.

I would figure that with what you are attempting, you would approach GD in London and work with them on solutions, as opposed to privately, and no guarantees that it would be accepted.


----------



## Bzzliteyr (23 Jun 2009)

It's quite the job pulling off the floor.  I have only seen it done once and it was on my driver's course.

Are you sure this company you are working for is really a "big player"? I would think that if they are looking to improve our vehicles and it is in the interest of the CF, pictures should be readily available to them.

Maybe the wait is due to security checks to verify the legitimacy of this business?

I am trying to play devil's advocate with my questions but at the same time I have some concerns.

And a suggestion to help them expedite things would be maybe to contact someone that could get them to 202 workshop here in Montreal and let them run rampant with a camera?


----------



## RHFC_piper (23 Jun 2009)

I understand the concern in both respects. 

This company does get photos from both GDLS and DND, but they're of stock vehicles which have never been used.  Which may sound great, but not when the goal is a refit of vehicles currently in service.  Another relating issue is that GDLS doesn't exactly keep photos of old vehicles kicking around, and the current incarnation of the LAVIII in the CF is years behind what GDLS is producing.

In regards to the wait time; it's not an issue of "security checks"; this company has been around a while. It's an issue of competition. Most companies don't make a habbit of helping the competition... GDLS is no exception.

Anyway, it is of no consequence; the engineers asked if I could get my hands on the pics, as just another resource available to them, and I said I would ask and see what happens.  I've recieved quite a few pics already, and they've helped a lot.  But, the concerns which have been raised are legitimate, so I'll just leave it be.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Jun 2009)

For those interested, the Security of Information Act may be applicable:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cs/O-5//20090623/en?command=home&caller=SI&search_type=all&shorttitle=security&day=23&month=6&year=2009&search_domain=cs&showall=L&statuteyear=all&lengthannual=50&length=50


----------



## c4th (2 Jul 2009)

RHFC_piper, stop asking for photos of the troop compartment!    You would have received the the OPSEC brief prior to 3-06.  It still applies.  Think nato secret.

If you need access to photos, blueprints, codes, and passwords you would already have them.

If it were me, I would have locked this thread as soon as you asked for information you are not entitled to, and chucked a warning at you for good measure.


----------



## RHFC_piper (2 Jul 2009)

Trust No One said:
			
		

> RHFC_piper, stop asking for photos of the troop compartment!    You would have received the the OPSEC brief prior to 3-06.  It still applies.  Think nato secret.
> 
> If you need access to photos, blueprints, codes, and passwords you would already have them.
> 
> If it were me, I would have locked this thread as soon as you asked for information you are not entitled to, and chucked a warning at you for good measure.



This has already been addressed.  As far as I'm concerned, this thread can be lock/deleted/whatever.  

All I was looking for is what is already available online with a simple google search (just saves me a search)... of course, with the exception of the last request, which I have subsequently withdrawn.  

As well, I would never ask for these pictures to be posted here. And as for where they end up; I don't even keep copies.  They're passed on to those who requested them (here at work).

But, I digress; I'll realize the fault in asking for this info on an open forum, and, thus, I'll find another resource and direct my co-workers to do the same.



Edit;  Just a thought though; wouldn't posting "lessons learned in Afghanistan" and any other threads regarding issued kit, vehicles, etc, be no different/ no less of a threat?


----------

