# Can they do this to us???



## wern32 (28 Sep 2005)

:threat:
Ok hear is the situation.
Ive got 8 yrs in and  on POET in Kingston which is 9 months for us, and 4 of us live off base with families.  We have a month left and are passed the most difficult parts.
Today we did a quiz (which is not included in our final mark) and it was a little difficult resulting in 10 out of 12 getting a mark under 60%
They came in around 1330 and told us that the 10 pers had to come in everynight remaining in this week for 2hrs of group study from 1800 to 2000.

My real bitch is, can the 4 pers living off base claim travel expense and or refuse to come in because of prior family commitments???
Im looking for CFAO documentation or any proof that they cant do this to us.

Oh ya and on Wed we start class at 1630 to 2330 because of a schedule conflict until end Nov.  BEND OVER TROOPS!!!


----------



## Michael OLeary (28 Sep 2005)

Since you're on course, they own you. You won't find any regulation that stops the staff from changing the schedule to meet training requirements.

While the quiz may not be part of your final mark, it has obviously been used by the staff as a measure of your progress. Perhaps they have determined that if you have that much trouble as a group over the quiz now, then you may not be ready for an upcoming major test, which will be part of the final grade, and failure of that may have career implications rather than just scheduling conflicts.


----------



## Gunnar (28 Sep 2005)

Look at it this way....Can you afford not to support your buddies by not turning up?


----------



## armyvern (28 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> :threat:
> We have a month left and are passed the most difficult parts.
> Today we did a quiz (which is not included in our final mark) and it was a little difficult resulting in 10 out of 12 getting a mark under 60%
> They came in around 1330 and told us that the 10 pers had to come in everynight remaining in this week for 2hrs of group study from 1800 to 2000.
> ...



Short and sweet....perhaps you may be past the most difficult part but apparently about 10 pers have more to learn about the "difficult parts." Sad fact of the matter is....the instructor's are aware of what WILL be on your future tests and WILL count towards the final mark...and apparently 10 people don't know the answers.

So some remedial is in order. NO you can't claim any travel expenses as you are on course. I'm pretty sure that none of you has a signed authorized leave pass for any of the evenings that you will required to be in the classroom. No you are out nothing. Period. The course is (should be) the priority (and probably would be if your families were not present with you). The 4 pers who do have their families in the area should be thankful for that as it doesn't happen very often. Count your blessings. You won't find anything in the CFAOs to back you up.

PS....I gather from your demeanour that you are one of the 10? Correct? Perhaps instead of %#$#ing, some study may be in order. JMHO.


----------



## wern32 (28 Sep 2005)

I passed with a good mark.  One of the members lives in the area and has to travel quite a distance to get to base and his wife had to reschedual her work to watch his kids.  The pers that live in the barracks are new personnel and live 30 seconds away, no big deal for them, but for 4 of us its a posting that is over a year long.


----------



## aesop081 (28 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> I passed with a good mark.   One of the members lives in the area and has to travel quite a distance to get to base and his wife had to reschedual her work to watch his kids.   The pers that live in the barracks are new personnel and live 30 seconds away, no big deal for them, but for 4 of us its a posting that is over a year long.



Stop bi***ing and get the job done as instructed.  Alot of us have year long courses without the benefit of families being there.  With 8 years in the military you should know how the game is played.


----------



## wern32 (29 Sep 2005)

Im fully aware of how the game is played, Ive spend alot of time in OPS & Trg and know how most courses are run.  The "game" has rules not just for one side.  If they wish to play they have to play by the rules as well.
Coming in to study is understandable to me but what the issue is, at 1300 they told us to come in that night for 2hrs.  If it was everyday starting tommorrow, there would be no complaint from me.
I feel your missing the point


----------



## TCBF (29 Sep 2005)

The rules they have to play by are outlined in the National Defence Act, and Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces, as well as various and sundry command, base, and school orders and instructions.  None of which, however, offer any statute or garuntee for the provision of good leadership, common sense, or adequate man-management in the day to day life of a serviceman. 

You have eight years in, so it is a bit late for me to say "Welcome to Radio station Kay - AY - Double-U - Kay.

All KAWK, All day."

Tough luck.  Hope things get better for you.   This too will pass.

Tom


----------



## aesop081 (29 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> I feel your missing the point



No...i know what you were getting at and i just dissmissed it.   You are on course and things like that will happen.   Thats why if you have a family it is *YOUR* responsability to have a plan in place in case of situations like these.   It is because of people not fullfiling that responsability that the military has resorted to making people fill out those damned family care plan forms. When you decided to remuster and go on course with your family you should have porepared yourself for that very situation.   Readiness doesn't stop once you leave the combat arms.


----------



## armyvern (29 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> at 1300 they told us to come in that night for 2hrs.   If it was everyday starting tommorrow, there would be no complaint from me.
> I feel your missing the point



I think you're missing the point. This afternoon I kitted 4 guys who found out this morning that they they are leaving for Afghan Friday. They won't be home til December. And you know what? They were smiling. Get over it. 
Remember the 24/7 rule? Your friend is required to have a childcare form on his file. Perhaps it would have been easier to call whomever he has listed on that instead of re-arranging the wife's schedule?    ???


----------



## George Wallace (29 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> I feel your missing the point



No.   You have missed the point.   A short coming has been found in your educations, and the Instructors are doing everything they can to remedy it.   Don't forget, they have lives too, so they also have to give up things to come in at night to give you remedial instruction.   

End result; if the extra instruction helps, all will pass the test.   More important on the weak student's minds, should be the consequences of what should happen if they don't take the remedial instruction and then as a result fail the Crse.   Will they now find themselves as HFCs and joining the ranks of the unemployed.

You are on Crse and not entitled to Travel Expense from you home/Quarters if you are called in at night for extra instruction.   Thinking of all the money the Government would then have to pay me for all the times I have been called in from home for a Bug Out/Snowball, all the times I had to come in to give extra instruction/drill/councilling to Crse members, etc. puts a smile on my face.   I could really have a great Bank Acct if only that had happened.


----------



## geo (29 Sep 2005)

As has been pointed out by other............
Believe it when I say that the instructors have lots of other things to do with their time than giving remedial training to candidates that are experiencing difficulties....
Between their own family life and having to prepare for all the lectures they'll have to give the next day - they need it like they need a hole in the head 

BUT

They want you guys to come thru
They want you guys to do more than just "pass" - they want you guys to be good at what you do so they will bend over backwards to ensure you get the best training they can give.

Remember - once you guys go home.... the instructor is still working.

Chimo!


----------



## Erborn (29 Sep 2005)

As has been pointed out by other............
(Believe it when I say that the instructors have lots of other things to do with their time than giving remedial training to candidates that are experiencing difficulties....
Between their own family life and having to prepare for all the lectures they'll have to give the next day - they need it like they need a hole in the head

BUT

They want you guys to come thru
They want you guys to do more than just "pass" - they want you guys to be good at what you do so they will bend over backwards to ensure you get the best training they can give.

Remember - once you guys go home.... the instructor is still working.)


Well said


----------



## beach_bum (29 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Coming in to study is understandable to me but what the issue is, at 1300 they told us to come in that night for 2hrs.   If it was everyday starting tommorrow, there would be no complaint from me.
> I feel your missing the point



I do feel for you, as does everyone really.  No one likes getting their plans changed at the last minute.  At the same time, this is the military and at times  it happens.  No one likes it, but it's the nature of the business.  
As for being told that afternoon....you aren't the only one that has ever happened to.  When we had the forest fires out here, I was told at 1600 that I had to be back that night at 1800 to DAG troops.  I'm a single parent, but, I still had to run around and make arrangements and be back at 1800 with a smile on my face.  Nope.....didn't get anything extra out of it either, nor did I expect to.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (29 Sep 2005)

i hope they never have national crisis you and your buddies are needed on 15 minute notice.  
you are lucky  to be able to live off base and have your family nearby  while on course.  some courses you live in barracks and have stand by the bed inspections everyday. have curfews added to your life style while on course.  giving up a few hours to help your course mates and maybe yourselves get better grades, career advancement, team spirit, and all around following orders  does not sound too bad tome. get off the pot, if youa re going to wear the uniform and whine that  you had to work a few extra hours on your course, go put on the other uniform ask the next person in line " DO YOU WANT  FRIES WITH THAT?"  
i think it is an lawful order and you have to follow it, not like you are going to be peeling carrots and potatoes you are doing course work.
tell him to hire the kid next door for 20 bucks for a few hours of babysitting


----------



## Unknown C/S (29 Sep 2005)

As you stated 10 of 12 pers did not do well on the test. You were one of the two who passed. You think that it is unfair that those ten people will have to "endure" 2 hours of remedial training. 
   Now you think that this is unfair to the married pers as they will be forced to make alternate plans for child care.
   Here is a cunning plan........you look after the kids. After all, you are the consumate course mate worried about the welfare of your buds. You are free it seems and what could display coursemanship better?

   I figure you have received approx 100+ years of cumulative advice here. I strongly urge you to take it.Time to buck up pal and get on with it. Stop looking at ways to take the easy way out. Get off the internet, shine your shoes and get a haircut.

   Yes  they can do it to you. "They" are trying to have all of you pass the course. Even if it means dragging students through.


----------



## Haggis (29 Sep 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Ive got 8 yrs in and   on POET in Kingston which is 9 months for us.....We have a month left.....



.....and you're profile says you're ex 2VP to boot.  Remember Battle School?  Can you seriously be asking this question????

Yep, you'll make RSM some day.


----------



## geo (30 Sep 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Yep, you'll make RSM some day.



If it wasn't for the fact that I figure you're trying to be sacrastic.... I'd resent that statement 

BTW.... there was a time,  in the old army, where instructors thought a course was no good and too soft, if there wasn't a 50% attrition rate. You should be grateful that your instrucors are a dedicated lot that are doing everything in their power to ensure everyone has a chance to pass the course.


----------



## Haggis (30 Sep 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Yep, you'll make RSM some day.



*Geo*: Maybe I will, too!  ;D


----------



## wern32 (1 Oct 2005)

Wow alot of 60's mentallity in the responses.
The instructors are civilian and they did not think we needed remedial, it was the military personnel that said we had to come in.


They had no instructor present during this time, it was mearly a forced study time

For those who are stating the "suck it up mentality" you are wrong.  The individual could have refused to come in but no compensation will or can we given for him coming in.


----------



## wern32 (1 Oct 2005)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> As you stated 10 of 12 pers did not do well on the test. You were one of the two who passed. You think that it is unfair that those ten people will have to "endure" 2 hours of remedial training.
> Now you think that this is unfair to the married pers as they will be forced to make alternate plans for child care.
> Here is a cunning plan........you look after the kids. After all, you are the consumate course mate worried about the welfare of your buds. You are free it seems and what could display coursemanship better?
> 
> ...





Wow, that is a ridiculous thing to say


----------



## aesop081 (1 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Wow, that is a ridiculous thing to say



Whats so ridiculous about it ? the fact that instructors want you to pass or the fact that your kids are your problem ?


i think you have lost sight of what you are doing for a living............wake the **** up !!


----------



## wern32 (1 Oct 2005)

Attention to detail...
I dont have kids and as I stated they needed to give us more notice before impossing this type of punishment.  This course does not fall in the same catagory as a battle shcool course because it is over 9 months, it is a posting.  It follows much like a battalion course, where you need to give pers an alotted time to prepare.  In a battalion course this is usually 24hrs notice.

As I mentioned this problem has been solved and in fact we were required more notice.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Wow alot of 60's mentallity in the responses.


 You know.....that mentality got many of us through tough courses and tougher situations.       





			
				wern32 said:
			
		

> The instructors are civilian and they did not think we needed remedial, it was the military personnel that said we had to come in.
> 
> They had no instructor present during this time, it was mearly a forced study time



So!   The Government doesn't want to waste money on paying a Civie overtime due to your Coursemates shortcomings.   The reasons you have this "Study Period" have already been stated to you.   



			
				wern32 said:
			
		

> For those who are stating the "suck it up mentality" you are wrong.   The individual could have refused to come in but no compensation will or can we given for him coming in.


True!   That 'Individual' could have taken it upon him/herself and refused to come in.   However, there are serious repercussions for acts of insubordination.

Your posts have me wonding if you have learned anything at all in eight years of military service.   I am having doubts as to your worth to the CF if you continue to whine about having to learn and do extra studies to achieve a pass.   Are you the people the CF wants?

Attention to Detail.  Every Course in the CF has the same Methods of Instruction, the same pressures to achieve high marks and pass, be it in a Battalion, at Battle School, at RMC, at Language School......don't think any are going to let you carry on as you think by your statements.  The more you post, the more we are likely to ask you if you would like some cheese to go with you whine.  

 :'(


----------



## aesop081 (1 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Attention to detail...
> I dont have kids and as I stated they needed to give us more notice before impossing this type of punishment.   This course does not fall in the same catagory as a battle shcool course because it is over 9 months, it is a posting.   It follows much like a battalion course, where you need to give pers an alotted time to prepare.   In a battalion course this is usually 24hrs notice.
> 
> As I mentioned this problem has been solved and in fact we were required more notice.



 i was generalizing the situation when i mentioned the kids.

As for your course being a posting.  Listen here, my aesop course was over a year long...  We had to deal with having to come in on an irregular schedule all the time as flights changed and airplanes broke.  Even here at sqn i have to call in on days off ( and days off arent realy days off)  to make sure that i am not flying due to changes. I lived attached to a cell phone  Things change daily.  If my kids lived with me i would have to be prepared for that now wouldnt i ? " I cant find a babysitter" isnt an excuse for me not to fly for a SAR call or a counter-drug op !!

So you had top come in extra time.....bohoohoo...thats what you are paied for.

"if you dont like it get the f*** out"


----------



## NCRCrow (2 Oct 2005)

AESOP said it right...

If u dont like it , get out. 

Spoiled kids. 

Duty above self.


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

We already have been apologized too and were told that it wouldnt happen again.   Because of it we were taken off extra studies and were even given a later timing following morning. (Which I was hung over for after drinking and eating my cheese and wine)

If it wernt for people complaining our military would be filled with mindless drones.

We were wronged, we complained, it was rectified and now we carry on.

For those that dont agree, should redo their leadership training or better yet consult the "Principles of leadership" which very few follow.


----------



## aesop081 (2 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> We already have been apologized too and were told that it wouldnt happen again.   Because of it we were taken off extra studies and were even given a later timing following morning. (Which I was hung over for after drinking and eating my cheese and wine)
> 
> If it wernt for people complaining our military would be filled with mindless drones.
> 
> ...



I'm quite sure i dont need leadership lessons from you.

maybe YOU should read this and reflect on your shortcomings....    http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33510.0.html


----------



## NCRCrow (2 Oct 2005)

Wern:

as a retread yourself , these junior people look up to u especially being combat arms. (ex VP)

Being a retread myself from the Royals for 3 years, fellow course members look up to u as a defacto leader. ( I was there myself)

Instead of finding faults and researching outdated CFAO's etc.

Take charge, make an action plan for your instructors to rectify the fault and assure them of your course's ability to pass.

Leadership................AESOP is capable and able...........

concentrate on your own team's goals vice complaining


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

Im a little confussed at all the animosity of my post.

I originally wanted to find some reference material to find out if we were wronged and found out through work we were but pers still insist that Im whinning.

I feel I am a leader and plan on advancing futher in the military.  I take the principles of leadership extremely seriously and would like to be the* fist * leader to actually follow them.  I love the military but just dont like what I see sometimes


----------



## aesop081 (2 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Im a little confussed at all the animosity of my post.
> 
> I originally wanted to find some reference material to find out if we were wronged and found out through work we were but pers still insist that Im whinning.
> 
> I feel I am a leader and plan on advancing futher in the military.   I take the principles of leadership extremely seriously and would like to be the* fist * leader to actually follow them.   I love the military but just dont like what I see sometimes



I take them very seriously as well......were you impying that i dont ?

I love the military too and the whining that comes out of you is what i dont like these days...i see alot of guys like you.   You have a job to do no matter what it takes to get done.   Do you think that my boss comes and apologise when he tells me i cant have my days off as there are a shortage of guys to fly ?   Do you think i feel wronged by that ?

Service before thy self.....

You consider yourself a leader ?   leadership isnt just following the principles written out...those are nice but you can follow them to the letter and still not be a leader.   Thats the difference between PLQ leadership and real ledership.

Your original point is still bullocks.   Always has been and always will be.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> Im a little confussed at all the animosity of my post.
> 
> I originally wanted to find some reference material to find out if we were wronged and found out through work we were ...........



Could you elaborate a bit more as to what you found out at work or who told you that you had been wronged?   Perhaps a Directive/Routine Order/QR&O/DADO/CFAO or some reference to how you were wronged?   Most of us don't see that you were wronged at all.   If your Staff want to admit they wronged you, without giving any references, then perhaps they were "weak" leaders (not the first time that has happened at that School).


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

"Wow alot of 60's mentallity in the responses."

- Ah, yes, the 60s.. When Canada had Nukes on Starfighters, Voodoos, Bomarcs and Honest Johns..

So, WTF?  You joined the army with the condos, right?

Tom


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

Basically because the school is consider purly acedemic with a set schedual, and they post your family with, you by not giving us time to adequetly prepare they are in fact effecting your family.   Proper time is required to, either rearange your wife's schedule or find a child care provider.   The personnel living in the shacks are sh!@ out of luck but living off pers fall into a different catagory because your family is considered part of the military family.   By not giving adequet prep time (usually 24hrs notice) your family has to make sacrifices to compensate.   This can put a strain on a family and eventually lead to personnel problems which in turn will affect the members ability to do his or her job.   So the school directives are quite clear on the working hours of day to day activities but they are allowed to ammend these with proper notification.

We found this out through our staff, which no offence to some, but are reservist for the most part and are trying to run the school like something they saw in a movie.


----------



## George Wallace (2 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> We found this out through our staff, which no offence to some, but are reservist for the most part and are trying to run the school like something they saw in a movie.


Ah! Yes!   The civilianization of the CF.   I had a couple of friends who OT'd to LCIS a couple of years ago.   Their Crse WO was a Female Sgt who didn't have the abilities to organize a party in a Brewery.   No doubt she filled several Visible Minority slots, including being paralysed from the neck up and was promoted.   ;D  And we wonder where all our problems come from.  (I have heard a lot more stories of goings on down there, but those are for another time and place.)


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

Okay.   

In my first post in this thread, I alluded to no garuntee of command exercising common sense and good judgement.   Any course or unit is only as effective as the people leading it.   Lions cannot be led by sheep, but lions also have to understand that there are certain accepted protocols we generally follow when leading our pride.   Understanding the broader military family and adequate notice and information are considered standard these days, and generally always have been.

Exigencies of the service are one thing, disorganization another.   Although no formal regulation may exist that says "They can't" , good judgement may well suggest "They shouldn't."

So, they may have flinched, got called on it, and have wised up.

A happy ending.

But why, pray tell, do you have reserve instructors on a Reg F POET course?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Tom


----------



## aesop081 (2 Oct 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> But why, pray tell, do you have reserve instructors on a Reg F POET course?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> 
> Tom



Tom,

i think that its besides the point.


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

"i think that its besides the point."

- Yeah, yer prob'ly right.

Tom


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

civilians teach and course directors are military


----------



## meni0n (2 Oct 2005)

Whatever happend to people taking responsability for their own actions? You fuck up, you do the punishement.


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Whatever happend to people taking responsability for their own actions? You frig up, you do the punishement.




thats why THEY got in Sh!@.


----------



## Bintheredunthat (2 Oct 2005)

I just have to jump in here with 2.......take it or leave it.

1)  Wern32 - you are pretty _______ for one.  (Please insert your choice of word in the blank - stupid, ignorant, brave, or naive)   With all the information you have in your profile and all of your "opinions" on this whole situation, you might as well just have posted your name, rank, and svc #.  You've insulted people much more experienced than you for bascially giving you the facts, dismissed their ideas because they may have come from a different time than you have, and have made a pretty strong remark against your course directors.  I'm not sure if your goal was to bring attention to what happened to you and your course (last I checked, you weren't in a union), but I'm quite sure that with the CF being a very small world, the word is out and your course directors likely have pegged you.  Believe me, I KNOW who these course directors are.  And I'm very sure when I say they (course directors) agree with every bit of advice everyone here has shared with you.

2)  The way I see it, you were going with the old, "Well that's the way I learned it was supposed to be - so it must be the way it is" routine.  Then you come up looking for a reference in search of some backing for your "defence".  But alas, you come up short.  And in the end, you give everyone the "in your face" like statement telling everyone that the decision was re-thought to meet your liking......or at least the way you thought it was to be done.  I personally think that with the way the military is so over sensitive nowadays, that the decision was probably adjusted to avoid any potential harassmant complaints (I said the H word) or possible trips to see the Base Padre.  We wouldn't want to upset the students now would we?  It could jeopardize our careers.  Good people have unfortunately been forced to walk on eggshells because of people like you.

3)  Your seach for help was a very big mistake.  I hope I never get so desparate to find info that I ruin my integrity as you have in order to fight a battle like this.  I also wonder if the others who this situation directly affected, were even as brave so as to try and argue this fact.  Perhaps they complained (as we sometimes do as a way of venting) but picked up and carried on.  You play yourself as a great leader, as someone who tries to follow the written rules by the books.  Too bad you forgot who you work for.  You don't work for your troops/co-workers, you work for the Crown.  When you eventually put your leaf up, I suspect you may change your tune.  You may want to always do what is right, but right now, I don't think you know what right is.  Right is not taking care of your troops when it comes at the expense of the mission.  "Sorry Sir, I know I have a mission - but I just don't want my guys to be unhappy right now."  Thousands of dollars are being spent to get you trained up for a job - and minor sacrafices may have to be made.  

4)  Your comments about Reservists and running the show like a movie are such a joke to me.  The school doesn't really tolerate too much crap, and just like any other full time training site, CFSCE keeps it's students in line with some regular inspections, parades, and chin ups.  Sorry you have to put up with calling a Reservist a Master Corporal when you probably don't respect him.  Must be tough having those 8 years in the Reg Force and having to put up with that.  I've seen guys with 20 years (16 as a Corporal) and they still maintained their professionalism day in - day out.  But it's the world you're in - and with all the shortages in the CF now, you may bump into a lot of Part-Timers doing the full time thing.  I think you should change your attitude towards the individual themselves, not whether they are Reg or Res Force. Sounds to me like you may have a pretty close knit group there on course and that you don't really agree with some things that are happening.  You've been on courses so you should know the one thing you all have in common is sometimes not liking what your instructors/course directors do.  Sometimes your opinions get the best of you and you feel mad.  You should also know how to work through it properly with some integrity while accomplishing the mission.  I would direct you to some of the principles of leadership and how you've failed to practice them, but I'll let everyone else point out which ones you've missed the figure 11 on completely, for my post is getting far too long.

I choose to end this by wishing you luck on your course.  Hopefully you gain the trade knowledge you need to do your job as a 227.  As for being in charge of others, I really hope you learn a lot more before you are put in that position.  It seems to me that you have a lot to learn.  But what do I know?  I only have 8 years under MY belt.

Bin


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

Bintheredunthat said:
			
		

> I just have to jump in here with 2.......take it or leave it.
> 
> 1)   Wern32 - you are pretty _______ for one.   (Please insert your choice of word in the blank - stupid, ignorant, brave, or naive)     With all the information you have in your profile and all of your "opinions" on this whole situation, you might as well just have posted your name, rank, and svc #.   You've insulted people much more experienced than you for bascially giving you the facts, dismissed their ideas because they may have come from a different time than you have, and have made a pretty strong remark against your course directors.   I'm not sure if your goal was to bring attention to what happened to you and your course (last I checked, you weren't in a union), but I'm quite sure that with the CF being a very small world, the word is out and your course directors likely have pegged you.   Believe me, I KNOW who these course directors are.   And I'm very sure when I say they (course directors) agree with every bit of advice everyone here has shared with you.
> 
> ...



All that bitching, I truely beleive you have no place in the military.


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

I have spent 8 years in the infantry, which is the front line.  This is were most of you !@cks pretend you are.
I have almost died because of hypothermia, dehidration and enemy fire as well as friendly fire.  I am a true veteren,(but I do not brag about it ) not like these clowns I see with the poppy's on their plate.  I was one of the first pesr to participe in combat missions since the Koreon war(OP Apollo).  F!@#k all of you that question me. 
 I am an expert when it comes to military doctrin and if you dont agree you are out right wrong.
Im sure some may disagree but this is a new army, my army and if YOU dont like it then get the F!@k out.
How many of you posting are past your retirement and are doing extentions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leave us so we can carry on


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

I have witnessed an afghan kill a sheep and was about to open up on us simply because we saw him do it.  I dont care if your an CSM or not but you have no idea how the military really works.  In the infantry you need to common sense and all I have seen in all these post are ignorant old men stating their feelings.  I have sent many of these post to my co-workers and they are shocked at what they have seen.

You old timers need to realize that it is 2005 NOT 1895.  I respect my elders but you folks question that.


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

"you need to common sense and all I have seen in all these post are ignorant old men stating their feelings."

- Well, this IS the internet, after all.

Tom (also was on OP APOLLO)


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

TCBF 

have a statement or dont bother me.
You sound old as well


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

My statements are above.  Read them in the order I wrote them, then tell me what an ignorant old (50) man I am.

Tom


----------



## wern32 (2 Oct 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> My statements are above.   Read them in the order I wrote them, then tell me what an ignorant old (50) man I am.
> 
> Tom



\WO 
Unit:  CMTC 
you know very little about how the real military works.  Im sure you tell your friends at party's how it is but come om you know nothing about the dangous patrts of the military


----------



## TCBF (2 Oct 2005)

PM on the way.

 ;D

Tom


----------



## armyvern (2 Oct 2005)

Oh Wern,

Too too bad for you. My heart bleeds. Too bad also that you aren't coming over to my trade. Because the first time I told your butt to be in at work that evening and you failed to show....I would charge your ass. I would win. You would lose. Period. Plain and simple. AWOA. Thank god that you are no longer a member of the infantry because with "leader's" such as yourself none of them would need any enemies.
Do not presume to call me a bad leader, dinosaur or any other of your self-serving comments and notions that you have used in this forum. You my dear, do not know where I have been and with whom I have served. I can guarantee that I have more field time than yourself and have been on more Ops.
I know that my personnel respect me. They know that I do not bring them into work (sometimes with as little as 1 hour notice) unless it is necessary. When I do call them in they understand it is for a reason and they don't whine about it. They actually have excellent morale, which apparently you lack. Morale is a leader's responsibility....you should retake all those 'leadership' courses that ONLY YOU have apparently absorbed and learned so well...and figure out that DISCIPLINE is a factor in it.
You think you'll be a good leader...(I'm rolling on the floor laughing now!!)? Well then, I have some advice for you (coming from an ignorant old woman please when you choose to rebuff me)...
With such a piss-poor attitude and condescending demeanour such as that you posess (PS...I wouldn't brag about being a 'good' leader if I was yourself either), you should seriously do the CF a favour and get the hell out...if not...

Take a good hard look in the mirror and sort yourself the %&$@ out.  Because it is only a matter of time before someone does it for you and I hope to god it's one of those old men with 60s mentality. And YOU truly are deserving of it. Thank god as well that I do not have such an insubordinate, insolent, mindless, the 'world owes me everything' little Gen Xer working for me. I really hate recommending pers for release, but it your case, I would be honoured. Enough said. 

PS...I think the suggestion earlier was that you should offer to look after the kids (they didn't say your kids) so as such a consumate professional leader why didn't you jump right in there and offer to babysit so that your apparently lacking course-mates could benefit from your initiative, ethos and leadership?

 :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby: :crybaby:


----------



## armyvern (2 Oct 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> PM on the way.
> 
> ;D
> 
> Tom



 ;D I hope it was a good one Tom. It was truly deserved.  ;D


----------



## COBRA-6 (2 Oct 2005)

The CF went to a 37.5hr, 0800 - 1630 hrs workweek? And they have to give 24 hrs notice to change the hours?? Must have missed that memo... 

Wern, sure you're not in the Danish military? They run on union rules and everything!


----------



## Cansky (2 Oct 2005)

Well as an OP Apollo vet myself I must defend some of the person (wern excluded) Most on that tour were professional and great soldiers. TCBF included.  Its easy to hide behind a pseudo name and slag someone else abilities just based on their age and era they joined the military.  But alas it is a new military and the last 10 years have taken a dive in regards to the "suck it up" and soldier on mentality.  I have been in for 18 years and watch us go from getting our A_____ kick behind the barracks in Cornwallis to now being asked to polish your boots.  Ptes telling MCpl's that they don't know how to do their jobs and nothing gets done about it.  IMHO we need the old days and that old mentality its the threat of harassment is ruining the army.  Wern I have no idea who you really are but I think the infantry is grateful to get rid of you that one less disrespecting soldier they have to deal with.  Just my rant to a thread that shouldn't have every been started.


----------



## ZipperHead (2 Oct 2005)

My wife, Kirsten ^^^^^^, told me about the gist of this thread over breakfast, and I nearly spit my food out of my mouth. "Can they do this to us????" Indeed.....

I think wern is an example of a pure shite combat arms soldier going on to becoming a pure shite tradesman. I've seen more than my share of deadwood leave the Armour Corps go on to be deadwood in their new trade. I've also seen a lot of good soldiers go on to be good MPs, firefighters, bin-rats, etc, so this isn't a slag against those that OT or the trades they go to.

You are an expert on military doctrine, hmmm????!!!! What lofty education do you have in that?? Doing endless section-attacks and combat team attacks. I smell bullsh!t here.... I was on Op Palladium with 2VP in 97 and 00-01, do tell what tactical genius you were, working out of CS 8.

And yes, I am an old dinosaur (18 years in, 37 years old), and I know TCBF, and there is something to be said for the old days and the old ways. Not that I agree with all of those things, but they did allow real soldiers to overcome real adversities, not just having to scramble for a baby-sitter, or cancel social plans. If you want us oldtimers to get out so you can run the military in a Club Med style setting, don't worry: a lot of good guys from the old days ARE getting out, mainly because of the jam-tart mentality of pseudo-soldiers like wern, who keep harping on about their rights but keep forgetting about one thing that trumps rights: responsibilities.

Oh yeah wern, you techno-wonder, stop wasting bandwidth by copying an entire post and putting something lame under it: just copy the pertinent bits. You can do that, can't you?!?!?! It might be on your PO check......

Al


----------



## DG-41 (2 Oct 2005)

> ou old timers need to realize that it is 2005 NOT 1895.



Professionalism, integrity, courage, and the ability to rise to any challenge (rather than whine and whinge) never goes out of fashion.

DG


----------



## George Wallace (2 Oct 2005)

Wern

Perhaps you ought to look in your own mirror, with your remarks on how you respect people, especially those ahead of you.


			
				wern32 said:
			
		

> Reply # 43
> I have spent 8 years in the infantry, which is the front line.   This is were most of you !@cks pretend you are.
> I have almost died because of hypothermia, dehidration and enemy fire as well as friendly fire.  I am a true veteren,(but I do not brag about it ) not like these clowns I see with the poppy's on their plate.  I was one of the first pesr to participe  in combat missions since the Koreon war(OP Apollo).  F!@#k all of you that question me.
> I am an expert  when it comes to military doctrin and if you dont agree you are out right wrong.
> ...






			
				wern32 said:
			
		

> Reply # 44     I dont care if your an CSM or not but you have no idea how the military really works.   In the infantry you need to common sense and all I have seen in all these post are ignorant old men stating their feelings.   I have sent many of these post to my co-workers and they are shocked at what they have seen.
> 
> You old timers need to realize that it is 2005 NOT 1895.   I respect my elders  but you folks question that.





			
				wern32 said:
			
		

> Reply # 47
> TCBF
> 
> have a statement or dont bother me.
> You sound old as well



You've dug yourself a fine deep hole.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Oct 2005)

MODERATOR NOTE
Not that he hasn't earned the kicks to the groin but I think we should slide this one back to the original question and the way he says it played out.
Anyone here familiar with the school and/or course that could shed some light from the other side?
I really would like to know if apologies[ and if so, why] were made to the students of a military course for making them do forced study time.
Thanks


----------



## meni0n (2 Oct 2005)

wern32 said:
			
		

> thats why THEY got in Sh!@.



I was actually talking about the 10 guys who failed. You fail the test, you suffer the consequences.


----------



## Sgt. Toms-Cadets (2 Oct 2005)

Hello:

I find Wern's statements to be extremely rude and disrespecful to those who are older and more experienced than him. I have read this entire post with fresh eyes and have seen that this person has no ability to respect the foundations of tradition or experience. I believe the military can only be operated upon principles of respect, team work and knowledge.

What am I to say anyway? I am not even in the military yet so I _obviously _ have no experience, wisdom or intellect. 

Take it or leave it,


----------



## kincanucks (2 Oct 2005)

Personally, I believe everyone should be given a forum to air their gripes and complaints about service life but this thread disintegrates to attacks on others from the get go.  To allow this person to continuously insult others is not on and should be stopped.  Forums like this are perfect for gripes about how hard we have it sometimes in the CF but it is not the place to freely slag others and get away with it.  Any reasonable person could have seen where this was going and a moderator should have taken action much earlier.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Oct 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Any reasonable person could have seen where this was going *and a moderator should have taken action much earlier.*



Sorry we have lives. Pay us $40.00/ hr to sit and monitor 24/7 and we'll alleviate your problem.


----------

