# Subsidized Education - ROTP



## jwsteele

I was recently sworn in for ROTP Civi U but I still have no idea how the financial end of things work.  I leave for IAP in two weeks and spend the rest of the summer there.  At some point my school will be sending info regarding fees and registration etc.  Do I have to come up with the $5000+ and pay the school and then get reimbursed or is this being handled and they just haven't told me about it?  How does the process of payment for tuition and books work?


----------



## kincanucks

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I was recently sworn in for ROTP Civi U but I still have no idea how the financial end of things work.   I leave for IAP in two weeks and spend the rest of the summer there.   At some point my school will be sending info regarding fees and registration etc.   Do I have to come up with the $5000+ and pay the school and then get reimbursed or is this being handled and they just haven't told me about it?   How does the process of payment for tuition and books work?



Your University Liaison Officer (ULO) will assist you with aspect.  Their name should be on the ETP message that you were given during the signing of the enrollment paperwork before you were enrolled.  If you were not sure of what happens with regards to this aspect of your subsidization why did you leave the recruiting centre without knowing the answer?


----------



## aesop081

Kincanuck.....

* hands out a cup of earl gray*


----------



## kincanucks

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Kincanuck.....
> 
> * hands out a cup of earl gray*



 ;D  What can I say?  I am what I am. Tea?


----------



## tree hugger

I was given a big ass check from my ULO.  I deposited it into my account, then paid for school.  And before you ask, yes you have to pay for the complete school year in one shot.


----------



## beach_bum

When you get sworn in, you fill out a ton of paperwork with a clerk (if not a couple of clerks), ask them any questions you have.  They will not bite you, think you are stupid for asking questions etc.  That is their job!  They have the answers, and if you do come up with one they don't have an answer to, they will find it.  This will make your life much easier.  You shouldn't be leaving with a pile of questions...you should be leaving that day with the anwers.   ;D


----------



## Glorified Ape

jwsteele said:
			
		

> I was recently sworn in for ROTP Civi U but I still have no idea how the financial end of things work.   I leave for IAP in two weeks and spend the rest of the summer there.   At some point my school will be sending info regarding fees and registration etc.   Do I have to come up with the $5000+ and pay the school and then get reimbursed or is this being handled and they just haven't told me about it?   How does the process of payment for tuition and books work?



They'll give you the money first, then you pay tuition. You can pay your tuition yourself and then get the money from your ULO but you don't have to.


----------



## Infanteer101

What Glorified Ape said...


----------



## vangemeren

I have already completed 2 years of university out of my own pocket. What are the advantages/disadvantages of applying for ROTP Civy U now for the last 2 years of school. (and no, money in not a main reason for asking this question).


----------



## denisottawa

when should i apply for subsidize education. i am going into my third year in electrical engineering. I have an option to do two years at lakehead university or 3 semester at cape breton uni and then i would receive my degree in engineering. just wondering when i should apply and how long would i have to be in the military to complete my required service doing it this way.

thanks


----------



## Glorified Ape

van Gemeren said:
			
		

> I have already completed 2 years of university out of my own pocket. What are the advantages/disadvantages of applying for ROTP Civy U now for the last 2 years of school. (and no, money in not a main reason for asking this question).



The first reason is money, even if it's not a main reason. You'll be paid your salary, tuition, books, and materials, and PLD if you qualify for it. You'll owe them the minimum of time, which is 3 years. You'll get the benefits (medical/dental/etc). I only had 2 years left on my degree when I applied and I don't regret it. What it works out to is that you live like a civilian student 8-9 months out of the year but get paid a salary for going to school and don't have to pay any of the associated costs. The pay isn't a fortune, but it's more than civi students get paid to go to school (which is to say nothing). On top of that, you can work a part-time job while you're at school and in the forces, depending on whether your ULO authorizes it (which they usually do unless you've got bad grades). 

The disadvantages are very slight. The most glaring one is that if you change your mind after you've been funded for a certain amount of time, you owe them everything back (that includes your salary, tuition, books, materials, PLD, etc.). If you stay in, you'll owe them 3 years, as I said. 



			
				denisottawa said:
			
		

> when should i apply for subsidize education. i am going into my third year in electrical engineering. I have an option to do two years at lakehead university or 3 semester at cape breton uni and then i would receive my degree in engineering. just wondering when i should apply and how long would i have to be in the military to complete my required service doing it this way.
> 
> thanks



The minimum amount of time you're allowed to have left on your degree is 2 years (for ROTP civi U). I'm not sure what the regs are, but certain trades qualify for signing bonuses. If you qualify for a trade which entails a signing bonus, you may end up making more money by finishing your degree and THEN applying to the CF as a DEO... but I have no idea, aside from medical/dental/lawyer, which trades qualify for a bonus or how much it is. You should talk to the recruiting centre.


----------



## kolkol

Hello All, 

I am currently in my first year at a university college here in Vancouver. I was wondering, is it possible to transfer into RMC after my first year of college (into ROTP). Further, will they look at just college marks, or high school as well (in addition to the usual volunteer, work stuff etc.)? Thanks for your input!


----------



## George Wallace

Welcome to Army.ca. Here are some reading references that are core to how Army.ca operates. I strongly recommend you take a moment to read through these to give you a better sense for the environment here. It will help you avoid the common pitfalls which can result in miscommunication and confusion. For those that choose not to read, their actions often lead to warnings being issued or even permanent bans.

*Army.ca Conduct Guidelines*: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions


Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)

Army.ca wiki pages  - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


----------



## Perfect_Clark

I've looked around and haven't found anything on this, there don't seem to be a lot of people like me. I'm in the application process for ROTP at a civilian University (Wilfrid Laurier), but I'm already in my 3rd year. Basically, the CF would only be funding my final year. Does anyone know whether that affects things, basically are they more leniant or stringent on handing out spots when I wouldn't be anywhere near the same timeline as those applying out of High School? I'm not really looking for false hope or anything because I know it's strict as it is, just wondering if it makes a lick of difference.


----------



## Lumber

There are a lot of people, many who have posted their stories here, who have gone through the ROTP program having applied while already enrolled in civi-U.


----------



## mhawk

It shouldn't be a problem, I have a few friends that did ROTP for their final year.  I myself got into ROTP after completing my second, although I'm doing a 5 year program.  Some things to consider are though, depending on your degree and trade choice, they're some joining incentives, for doctors, dentists and engineers.  But you really be talking with a recruiter.


----------



## benny88

Clark,

    I too know people who applied when already in university. Who knows, they might even prefer it, as the CF gets a trained officer faster. 
    If I remember correctly, the CF won't just fund your final year, they will back pay you for your first three years as well.
    Also, are you applying through the CFRC detachment in Kitchener? The staff there is great! Good luck.




			
				mhawk said:
			
		

> I'm doing a 5 year program.



  No kidding, I thought you could only get four years of subsidization. If it's not too personal mhawk, what program at what school?


----------



## mhawk

I'm only getting subsidized for 3 years.  My program is Mechanical Engineering with the Aerospace Option at the U of Manitoba.  It takes 5 years to do the program.


----------



## George Wallace

benny88 said:
			
		

> .........................................................
> If I remember correctly, the CF won't just fund your final year, they will back pay you for your first three years as well.
> Also, are you applying through the CFRC detachment in Kitchener? The staff there is great! Good luck.



If I remember correctly, that information is wrong.  There are different programs by which one can join the CF.  Only one is ROTP.  They are all different, with different requirements, different financial benefits and different Terms of Service.  For the correct information, follow benny88's advice to see the CFRC and find out which one you may fall into.


----------



## benny88

The CF will pay an OCdt back for schooling already obtained (but only if they approve the degree, I think,) but granted, just under ROTP. Apologies for not mentioning the other ones.


----------



## Perfect_Clark

Benny,

Yes I am applying through CFRC Kitchener. I really enjoy the people that work there, they've been really good all around. I was told by my interviewer that they'd only pay for my last year of schooling, which is really all I expect. Also mentioned was that unlike those that go to RMC, I don't get a grace year. If I decide it's not for me after any length of time in ROTP funded time, I have to pay it back (not that I will change my mind).

Some of the people at that office are real characters


----------



## George Wallace

So.  This doesn't fit into this topic as you are under a different Plan.  You are CEOTP, or more likely DEO.


----------



## benny88

Yeah, from what he says it's CEOTP, I believe.

Good luck, regardless.


----------



## IntlBr

Perfect_Clark said:
			
		

> Benny,
> 
> Yes I am applying through CFRC Kitchener. I really enjoy the people that work there, they've been really good all around. I was told by my interviewer that they'd only pay for my last year of schooling, which is really all I expect. Also mentioned was that unlike those that go to RMC, I don't get a grace year. If I decide it's not for me after any length of time in ROTP funded time, I have to pay it back (not that I will change my mind).
> 
> Some of the people at that office are real characters



Fantastic staff there - I've already promised a few people that if the board selects me for ROTP a case of beer might appear at Kitchener!

Captain T is a great great guy, and Bombadier O as well - very helpful.

Good Luck Clark!


----------



## Gunner98

Perfect_Clark said:
			
		

> I've looked around and haven't found anything on this, there don't seem to be a lot of people like me. I'm in the application process for ROTP at a civilian University (Wilfrid Laurier), but I'm already in my 3rd year. Basically, the CF would only be funding my final year. Does anyone know whether that affects things, basically are they more leniant or stringent on handing out spots when I wouldn't be anywhere near the same timeline as those applying out of High School? I'm not really looking for false hope or anything because I know it's strict as it is, just wondering if it makes a lick of difference.



I was enrolled ROTP after 2nd year of (H)BBA at WLU.  That was 24+ years ago (1983).  Later, I sat in Gagetown waiting to start Phase II Artillery while my cohort was promenading down the aisle at WLU sporting mortar board and tassel.  My obligatory service was 4 years, although one year of that was spent on OJT and Phase training. First posting was Germany and I think my arrival was the first step toward the wall coming down. ;D


----------



## trentonmilwife

Hi There, I'm actually in the same boat (well I've actually left university after I finished my 3rd year) and I've applied to the ROTP civi -u program for this year to get my final year to get my hon. bach. However in order to apply for ROTP you MUST have atleast 12 months of school left (ie 3 semesters, not 2) because you are not obliged to stay in the forces and owe them money should you leave until you start the 1st day of your second year (ie. your 3rd semester) of subsidization. So the forces won't sponsor people who can walk away for free in a year it would be rather foolish. So I had to find a transfer program that would take me 12 months (well 3 sememsters)  of courses to complete just to apply to ROTP.

Many people join at the start of 3rd year and it just means you might not be at the same spot in the training system when you graduate uni as those who started in first year. But that doesnt' mean you can't catch up. You will most likely do your IAP and BOTC with younger students but that's nothing significant. Also now they have started to only do second language training for officers who need it (and usually this is later in your career, where as before DEO's would get 6-12 months of training), so that can save you one summer and then  you will just go straight into doing your phase trainings with everyone else.

If you don't want to go to school longer you can always get a pass degree and go in as a DEO (you don't need Honors for a degree to get in, mind you you may have to do some extra courses later on so that you can do a post grad once you are in the forces, as that is a big plus for promotions past Major now) or you can see if they are willing to subsidize you on condition of a obligatory service agreement from the get go.

Good Luck!


----------



## Perfect_Clark

I just got my acceptance last week for ROTP even though I only have 8 months of school left (2 terms), so I'm not sure what happened with your CFRC... In fact I was specifically told that because I only have a year left I can walk away at the job offer time and won't have to repay the money at all (not that I'll do that). Are you sure you heard correctly about the 12 months?


----------



## Gunner98

According to QR&O 15.07, the minimum obligatory service period is 12 months.  If you join after 2nd year of univ it is normally 36 months.  Maximum is nromally 60 months, except for Health Service professionals who could have up to 9 years of oblig svc, depending on recruitment allowance, course of study, etc.


----------



## Perfect_Clark

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> According to QR&O 15.07, the minimum obligatory service period is 12 months.  If you join after 2nd year of univ it is normally 36 months.  Maximum is nromally 60 months, except for Health Service professionals who could have up to 9 years of oblig svc, depending on recruitment allowance, course of study, etc.



Well I'm in my third year, so I guess either:

a) the term I'm currently in, Jan-April counts (I did my interview and all that back in November),
b) the summer in which I'm doing BOTQ counts,
c) for some reason the actual 8 months of school is all that counts and it's ok with them.


----------



## Gunner98

Your obligatory service normally begins once you graduate from univ.  I would check with the recruiting centre or your ULO/Orderly Room, if it is an issue.  In my 24-years in uniform I seldom rely on memory of a conversation, I prefer written documents and policy manuals to resolve conflicting information.  If it ain't written down you can't always be sure.  Your enrollment paperwork should include the Obligatory Service period and/or date.  This date will appear on your electronic MPRR - Military Personnel Record Resume.


----------



## checkmate_ca

I am just wondering if anyone is in the same category as me. I am doing first year engineering at university of toronto and applied of ROTP. They offer me education at RMC. Anyone?


----------



## Welshy

I say offer them back ROTP at U of T. That way you don't have to redo first year. I was in the same situation, but they gave me a choice to stay or do RMC.


----------



## checkmate_ca

i ask them and they say the offer is only for RMC so i am not sure whats going on


----------



## Welshy

Its your call. You can go to RMC or you can stay at U of T, finish your degree and go DEO later on. Ultimately it is which ever you think will be in your best interest.


----------



## Wookilar

Find out from the Registrar which (if any) of your courses are transferable towards an engineering degree at RMC. RMC has a very rigid course structure for 1st and 2nd year, after that it gets more into your specialization.
They may accept your marks and courses for acceptance, but not for transfer (happened to me on the Arts side. I got advanced 9 credits out of 11 courses). If they are only offering RMC, then make sure you get as many transfer credits as you can, it'll make life easier (spares are very rare for my engineer friends).

Wook


----------



## checkmate_ca

so does if i get transferable credit to RMC does that mean i wont have to take some of the course at RMC?


----------



## SupersonicMax

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> so does if i get transferable credit to RMC does that mean i wont have to take some of the course at RMC?



Yes but don't expect to have many courses credited.

Max


----------



## checkmate_ca

Can u skip class at RMC?? just wondering lol


----------



## SupersonicMax

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can u skip class at RMC?? just wondering lol



Hmmm that would be no...


----------



## dwalter

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can u skip class at RMC?? just wondering lol



This is what I always wonder: Why do people still feel the need to skip class when they get to post secondary? Maybe I'm cynical because I had to pay for my first year, but in general post secondary is there for people who want to be there. That means people shouldn't be skipping because the classes are actually interesting right?


----------



## Corey Darling

I was told that although i might be able to transfer my credits over to RMC, i would have to start from year one. Im currently in second year, and taking english and computer science over again really didnt appeal to me lol. Although I'm sure my grades would have been pretty good  So I've opted for civey university to get the degree out of the way. Cheaper for the government that way also  ;D


----------



## checkmate_ca

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> This is what I always wonder: Why do people still feel the need to skip class when they get to post secondary? Maybe I'm cynical because I had to pay for my first year, but in general post secondary is there for people who want to be there. That means people shouldn't be skipping because the classes are actually interesting right?



Cause sometimes the lecture isn't really useful and I learn nothing from them, even if I go I wouldn't get much out of it so why go and waste time.


----------



## checkmate_ca

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> I was told that although i might be able to transfer my credits over to RMC, i would have to start from year one. Im currently in second year, and taking english and computer science over again really didnt appeal to me lol. Although I'm sure my grades would have been pretty good  So I've opted for civey university to get the degree out of the way. Cheaper for the government that way also  ;D



yea i am planning to reject my RMC offer and stay with U of T cause repeating first year doesn't sound that appealing either.


----------



## Lumber

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Cause sometimes the lecture isn't really useful and I learn nothing from them, even if I go I wouldn't get much out of it so why go and waste time.



Amen.

Many (not a majority) of my lectures amount to no more than the prof. reading out a power point presentation. Sometimes the prof elaborates or goes into details not given in the power point, but often you could learn just as much by printing off the slides and reading them yourself. Since I can read the slides faster than the prof can give a power point presentation, not going to class can be more economical use of ones time.

That being said, I wouldn't skip class to go back to my room to read the slides, so it's better for me to just go to class.

Besides, most of my profs do a great job of elaborating on the points in the presentation, and write things on the board that aren't provided in the notes.



			
				Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> ...in general post secondary is there for people who want to be there. That means people shouldn't be skipping because the classes are actually interesting right?



True, but as adults we should be able to decide what is the best use of our time. 

One teacher told my class this year, "There are many legitimate reasons to be absent from class, but if you skip class to go study for an exam in some other course, that just won't fly. This course is MANDATORY!"

I'm sorry, that's just BS.

If I am passing course A with flying colours, and have no doubt that I will pass, but in course B I am honestly worried about not passing, then skipping the course A to go study for an exam in B is just good sense! 

I actually have a prof., by the way, who is a military prof and flat out did not want to take attendance, but the mil wing wouldn't let him/her.


----------



## infamous_p

For the most part, the majority of Civvie-U professors (I don't know about military professors) post their notes/lecture slides online after the class... so if you find that it may be a better use of your time to skip one class to say, work on an assignment for another (as I've found I've had to do on more than one occasion), that would be a fair reason to skip class - in my opinion. 

There are those who skip class because they are lazy, want to sleep, just plain don't feel like going, etc., and there are others who skip class scurrying around desperately trying to finish a thousand other things for his or her other classes. The former REALLY bugs me (as I'm sure other Civvie-U students can attest to) when it comes to the professor posting his or her lecture notes. Those who are lazy or couldn't be bothered are, in this sense, given the same opportunities for staying caught up than those who cannot attend the class for legitimate reasons. Not much you can do about that, though.


----------



## Corey Darling

> yea i am planning to reject my RMC offer and stay with U of T cause repeating first year doesn't sound that appealing either.



I would jump at the chance for RMC personally.. If I could simply transfer over from where I'm at now, and if I wasn't in a long term relationship, with a new car im trying to pay off....

The flexibility of civey at that point is why I've chosen that route. Otherwise, I'd be all over RMC. Its unfortunate, because I'd get alot more out of RMC then I ever will out of Uvic.

Oh well  :

The real kicker is that 4 years ago when i started this process, the recruiter said I could start Civey university and transfer right into RMC the following year if I turned down the current job offer - which I did - didn't get pilot due to vision. So, i kept trying every year for 3 more years, and the finally changed the standards  but now its too late to go to RMC.


----------



## George Wallace

Lumber said:
			
		

> Amen.
> 
> Many (not a majority) of my lectures amount to no more than the prof. reading out a power point presentation. Sometimes the prof elaborates or goes into details not given in the power point, but often you could learn just as much by printing off the slides and reading them yourself. Since I can read the slides faster than the prof can give a power point presentation, not going to class can be more economical use of ones time.
> 
> That being said, I wouldn't skip class to go back to my room to read the slides, so it's better for me to just go to class.
> 
> Besides, most of my profs do a great job of elaborating on the points in the presentation, and write things on the board that aren't provided in the notes.
> 
> True, but as adults we should be able to decide what is the best use of our time.
> 
> One teacher told my class this year, "There are many legitimate reasons to be absent from class, but if you skip class to go study for an exam in some other course, that just won't fly. This course is MANDATORY!"
> 
> I'm sorry, that's just BS.
> 
> If I am passing course A with flying colours, and have no doubt that I will pass, but in course B I am honestly worried about not passing, then skipping the course A to go study for an exam in B is just good sense!
> 
> I actually have a prof., by the way, who is a military prof and flat out did not want to take attendance, but the mil wing wouldn't let him/her.



So?  After reading this.  I get the distinct impression that you feel that just the mere fact that you have registered for a Crse, means that you should pass it.  Forget all the attending lectures and participation in class discussions, you just need the PowerPoint Slides to study and you are good to go.  Frankly, I think that this attitude is going to cause you serious problems in the future, beginning with a pisspoor work ethic.  You do realize that you do have to do some work in order to earn your wages; right?  A job isn't just a paycheque; it actually requires some labour.


----------



## Lumber

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  After reading this.  I get the distinct impression that you feel that just the mere fact that you have registered for a Crse, means that you should pass it.  Forget all the attending lectures and participation in class discussions, you just need the PowerPoint Slides to study and you are good to go.  Frankly, I think that this attitude is going to cause you serious problems in the future, beginning with a pisspoor work ethic.  You do realize that you do have to do some work in order to earn your wages; right?  A job isn't just a paycheque; it actually requires some labour.



Don't read too much into it, now!

I didn't say I skip class, just that you shouldn't be blinded by the mentality that every class has some intrinsic value. We should be mature enough to know that if we do skip a class, that it had better be for a good reason and that you better be prepared to make up for it (i.e. getting the notes, consulting with classmates and/or the prof). The point of contention is on just what a "good reason" is. As infamous_p says, "there are others who skip class scurrying around desperately trying to finish a thousand other things for his or her other classes." That is not a "legitimate" reason as per the college orders, but I feel it's completely acceptable, maybe you disagree?

As for having a poor work ethic, I respect your opinion that that would cause a person to have trouble in the future, because I totally agree. But you don't know me very well, I have a very good work ethic. Sure, that me talking and I'm obviously biased, but you don't know me enough to say other wise. I go to lectures and discussions, and if I don't its for a good reason. I get seriously "bugged" to use infamous_p's term, at those who skip because they are lazy, want to sleep, just plain don't feel like going, and boy are there a lot of those around here. I take notes in all those lectures and am one of the only people that actually participates in class discussions; most people, my friends included, won't speak up even if they have an answer to a teachers questions, because according to them, they just don't care enough. I do.


----------



## checkmate_ca

Corey Darling said:
			
		

> I would jump at the chance for RMC personally.. If I could simply transfer over from where I'm at now, and if I wasn't in a long term relationship, with a new car im trying to pay off....
> 
> The flexibility of civey at that point is why I've chosen that route. Otherwise, I'd be all over RMC. Its unfortunate, because I'd get alot more out of RMC then I ever will out of Uvic.
> 
> Oh well  :
> 
> The real kicker is that 4 years ago when i started this process, the recruiter said I could start Civey university and transfer right into RMC the following year if I turned down the current job offer - which I did - didn't get pilot due to vision. So, i kept trying every year for 3 more years, and the finally changed the standards  but now its too late to go to RMC.



I would go RMC if I could just transfer over


----------



## George Wallace

Your post was just in addition to several others that were advocating skipping classes.  Perhaps your work ethic is good, but several others are very lacking as witnessed in their posts.  It makes many Serving Members and many members of the Press who read these comments wonder why the heck the CF and Canadian Government should pay a lazy sluff artist to go to RMC and then reward him with a Commission and tenure in the CF as an officer?  What is being posted here reflects very poorly on RMC, the Professors at RMC and some of the people selected to attend RMC.  This is perhaps the decline of the Officer Corps as a "Class" and raises questions as to why we even need them, if we have more highly trained and motivated personnel in the NCM ranks, who are more proficient at their jobs and in leadership.  I have Cpls working in my Trade who hold Masters and PhDs.  I often ask a young first year BA student, why we should accept them as an officer cadet, when we have Cpls with much higher educations.  There seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst this generation that is just entering the Universities and Job Force, that they can start immediately at the Top and not have to put any effort into what they do.  It is rampant and will cause us to see a great deal of problems in the very near future.


----------



## checkmate_ca

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Your post was just in addition to several others that were advocating skipping classes.  Perhaps your work ethic is good, but several others are very lacking as witnessed in their posts.  It makes many Serving Members and many members of the Press who read these comments wonder why the heck the CF and Canadian Government should pay a lazy sluff artist to go to RMC and then reward him with a Commission and tenure in the CF as an officer?  What is being posted here reflects very poorly on RMC, the Professors at RMC and some of the people selected to attend RMC.  This is perhaps the decline of the Officer Corps as a "Class" and raises questions as to why we even need them, if we have more highly trained and motivated personnel in the NCM ranks, who are more proficient at their jobs and in leadership.  I have Cpls working in my Trade who hold Masters and PhDs.  I often ask a young first year BA student, why we should accept them as an officer cadet, when we have Cpls with much higher educations.  There seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst this generation that is just entering the Universities and Job Force, that they can start immediately at the Top and not have to put any effort into what they do.  It is rampant and will cause us to see a great deal of problems in the very near future.



Can I ask, a PhD in what field? And what trade are you in? I don't know I just realize in your post you mention lazy artist and BA student. I have to say being a first year engineering student I take more course then the average first year arts student.


----------



## Lumber

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Your post was just in addition to several others that were advocating skipping classes.  Perhaps your work ethic is good, but several others are very lacking as witnessed in their posts.  It makes many Serving Members and many members of the Press who read these comments wonder why the heck the CF and Canadian Government should pay a lazy sluff artist to go to RMC and then reward him with a Commission and tenure in the CF as an officer?  What is being posted here reflects very poorly on RMC, the Professors at RMC and some of the people selected to attend RMC.  This is perhaps the decline of the Officer Corps as a "Class" and raises questions as to why we even need them, if we have more highly trained and motivated personnel in the NCM ranks, who are more proficient at their jobs and in leadership.  I have Cpls working in my Trade who hold Masters and PhDs.  I often ask a young first year BA student, why we should accept them as an officer cadet, when we have Cpls with much higher educations.  There seems to be a sense of entitlement amongst this generation that is just entering the Universities and Job Force, that they can start immediately at the Top and not have to put any effort into what they do.  It is rampant and will cause us to see a great deal of problems in the very near future.



There are always slackers. The distinction was made, by, once again, infamous_p, that there are those who skip because the are lazy (slackers), and those with more legitimate reason. Again, those reasons are acceptable in the eyes of some of us, but to the institution, "class is mandatory, no ifs and/or buts." Here's something you may find highly debateable: school is not the same as work. Work ethic often translates from one to the other. A slacker in school can translate to a slacker on the job. I firmly believe that your job is completely mandatory (no ifs and/or buts), but I believe that as firmly that I believe school is the exact opposite. For some people school comes naturally; they learn very quickly and don't need to work at it as hard to get the education (note* education and a degree are two different things. You can BS your way to a degree without having learned anything). Those with the strong work ethic, whether they chose to skip or not, will (should) make good Officers and well me a credit to the CF and to RMC. 

"I often ask a young first year BA student, why we should accept them as an officer cadet, when we have Cpls with much higher educations." 

A degree does not an officer make. There are officers without any degrees at all. An officer has intrinsic qualities of leadership, charisma, etc. I'm sure there are many educated NCMs who would make great Officers, but not simply because they have degrees, but then the whole issue of Officers requiring a degree is a whole other discussion, and lets NOT go there!


----------



## infamous_p

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can I ask, a PhD in what field? And what trade are you in? I don't know I just realize in your post you mention lazy artist and BA student. I have to say being a first year engineering student I take more course then the average first year arts student.



Your third and fourth sentence here really did not make much sense - what's the point you are trying to make here? Don't take my tone the wrong way here, I was just very confused by your two last sentences.

However, you cannot compare being a "first year engineering student" to a "first year arts student" - you might as well be comparing apples and oranges; both degrees require very, VERY different types of work. An unfortunate number of people tend to "look down" on arts students as, for whatever reason, arts is considered to be an "easy" degree program (defined as "easy" by some mysterious, invisible physical entity). In comparison to one another, engineering appeals to more of a mathematical, scientific, and problem-solving oriented population, while arts programs present students with an overwhelming amount of reading, interpretation, memorization, and verbal/written communication (hence people being either left-brained or right-brained). Now, there are many arts students out there who would look at a math equation and absolutely panic (as I would myself). On the other hand, there are many engineering students who would be assigned an essay on the Sociological Theory of Ervin Goffman and do the same - absolutely panic. Like I said - you cannot compare apples and oranges, girls and boys, or hot and cold. It all depends on the individual skill set. This mindset that exists all too predominantly among students everywhere that "such degree program is harder than such and such degree program" gets quite tiring. 

Judging from the third and fourth sentences of your post (again, like I said, I was confused by them but going off of what it <i><b>sounds</i></b> like you are saying) you are putting yourself, as an engineering student, essentially <i>above</i> an arts student. That is precisely the attitude that should not and cannot exist within a good officer. As Mr. Wallace was saying, there are a large number of people out there who unfortunately (due to their degree, level of education, home environment, the way they were raised, etc.) believe they should, under all circumstances, "start at the top". This statement made by you appears to <i>me</i> like this type of attitude.

Correct me if I am way out of left field here regarding what you were trying to say.


----------



## George Wallace

Lumber

You have to remember, and some others have to realize, what kind of Institution you are in.  Remember your motto.  You are in a Military Institution and being trained and educated to be in the Military.  In the Military it is a chargable offence to be AWOL.  You are in essence in a military training establishment and learning to be part of the military.  Skipping classes, as some feel is a right to do, goes against the training that the military is trying to instill in you, and not what they are paying you for.  What is to say that said students, habitually skipping classes at RMC, are not going to conduct themselves in the exact same manner when posted to a CF Base, Unit or Installation?

This reflects on the individuals lack to fully analyse a problem and a incomplete thought process in those who feel that skipping classes really is nothing to fret about.  Everything leads to something further down the road, and this development of a lack of responsibility on some students parts is not a characteristic we want in officers in the CF.


----------



## George Wallace

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can I ask, a PhD in what field? And what trade are you in? I don't know I just realize in your post you mention lazy artist and BA student. I have to say being a first year engineering student I take more course then the average first year arts student.



Lazy sluff artist could refer to anyone.  It is not refering to a BA.


----------



## dwalter

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can I ask, a PhD in what field? And what trade are you in? I don't know I just realize in your post you mention lazy artist and BA student. I have to say being a first year engineering student I take more course then the average first year arts student.



Now we shouldn't really be turning this into a debate about which degrees do more work. I am in arts, and I don't appreciate it when people assume we do less work. Engineers and Science students end up taking courses that are intensive in math, and communication of scientific ideas, but arts courses can have just as much work. We write essays on a weekly basis remember! 

Also generally everyone takes the same amount of courses... At least where I go to university it doesn't matter what faculty you are in, you can't take more than 34 credits in one year. 30 credits is a full course load, and the extra 4 are for people who take labs in addition to their normal courses. I am taking 29 credits, and some of the engineers I know are taking between 28 and 32. We all roughly take the same amount of courses.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter what faculty you belong to, the fact is that there are slackers in each one. Even if a prof posts his or her notes online, if you think that is enough, you might as well do a distance education. I guess it depends on learning style too. Some people can do fine just reading, but personally I need to hear it as well to get the most out of a topic. Technically seminars are even better, being able to talk about it.


----------



## Wookilar

To get back on track a little here....

Checkmate: Do not confuse which "year" you are in at RMC and the courses you will be doing. If you get a transfer credit for 1st year Calc, you will not do 1st year Calc again, same with the rest (that's IF you get a transfer credit). RMC does require more, and different, core courses than most university's do.

Myself for example: I was a 1st year, then a 2nd year, then a 4th year. Yes, I am a UT, not an RO, but there are many RO's at RMC that do not fit into the standard 4 year mold either. My advice, do a little more homework and examine the options before you dismiss the offer out of hand.

Wook


----------



## airman87

The best thing to do IMO would be to contact the registrar at RMC or ask the CFRC to, and ask which credits you may transfer. 



			
				Wookilar said:
			
		

> My advice, do a little more homework and examine the options before you dismiss the offer out of hand.



Agreed. Ask the CFRC staff, that's what they're there for.


----------



## checkmate_ca

Can someone tell me an average day for a first year student at RMC, like your timetable and how much free time you get. How many courses do you take in first year?


----------



## infamous_p

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me an average day for a first year student at RMC, like your timetable and how much free time you get. How many courses do you take in first year?



Click <a href="http://www.rmc.ca/military/ji/ji_e.html#life"><b><i>here</b></i></a> and read through.

...or <a href="http://www.rmc.ca"><b><i>here</b></i></a>.


----------



## checkmate_ca

Thanks. Does anyone know if there is any change for first year at RMC since most cadets won't be going to IAP this summer?


----------



## airman87

checkmate_ca said:
			
		

> Thanks. Does anyone know if there is any change for first year at RMC since most cadets won't be going to IAP this summer?



A 4-week FYOP starting early August at Kingston..I think..


----------



## Wookilar

As far as that one goes, there are so many rumours it's not even funny. If I hear anything from a reputable source (I'll check with the CI and see if she will tell me anything), I'll post here.

Wook


----------



## ballz

Well the thread's been dead for a while but I have to get my 2 cents in, I just have to.

On the topic of skipping classes, I'm probably the guy you all hate, and I'm positive I'm going to get ripped apart. I'm a business student in my first year(btw, why is business considered an arts degree at RMC?), and I would probably say I've missed more classes than I've attended (not in a bragging sense, I'm just stating it for discussions sake). Many times, its because I'm sleeping or whatever.

Pretty easy to explain my thoughts. My english course requires me to write 4 essays for the entire course. That's it, thats all there is to it. So I have the essay topics for say short fiction, and I decide I'm going to pick the topic about one of the 10 short stories I could do. During class, our prof will stand up there and read the short story to us, spelling out a bunch of stuff for people that just aren't very good at english. 

Well, why would I attend the 9 classes about the 9 stories that I don't need to know about (and I don't go to the class about the story I am doing either. I read the story myself and interpret it myself. That is what your supposed to be able to do, not just repeat back the prof's opinion to her). I can think of things I could be doing for that 50 minutes that are a lot more productive than listening to those stories that I will never need to know existed, and yes, that includes sleeping. I have an A in that class, I'm sitting somewhere above 90 for sure. 

In fact, the only class I have (out of English, Folklore, 2 Business classes, and Economics) that I can say is truly worth attending 100% of the time is Economics. Every day I learn something new. Everyday I learn something that will be on the next assignment. Everyday I learn something that will be on a test or final exam. And everyday I actually learn something that I might actually need outside that classroom door. 

I happen to be a very rational thinker, I look at things much like an economist. It comes down to the product, the result, and that's all that matters (that's the way the prof's look at it too). You do whatever it needs to be done to come up with the best product, and nothing less, and nothing more. If you owned a business, you wouldn't spend $500 dollars creating the exact same product that could be created for $300, no, you'd spend $300. If I'm writing an essay about Rothschild's Fiddle, I'm not going to waste my time getting "enlightened" about The Blue Hotel. Maybe I would if it was something that I was interested in, but as a first-year student, those kind of classes seem few and far between until I get into the real material in my later years.

Now, please enlighten me about the way I view these things, because that is of interest to me.


----------



## dwalter

There's not much to say. That's your view, and I'm sure your work ethics will continue to reflect these habits in later life. My first year English program has had me writing 13 essays over the course of the year on about 20 books. I have to read all of them, I have to attend all my lectures, seminars, and tutorials in order to do well on them. I'm in a special first year foundations program that is English, Philosophy, and History all rolled into one course, and I get 18 credits for it, which is why it is all the work, however it serves the dual purpose of keeping me on task.

I don't skip any of my classes, because I am not in the habit of doing it, which means down the road I will maintain the same style of work ethic.

You can continue going about your university education in the manner you see fit. The university doesn't care, you have already paid your tuition, the rest is up to you.


----------



## benny88

I will say that it's nice to have the OPTION to miss class at Civvy-U, as it's helpful once in a while to prioritize, such as when theres a big assignment due I will miss a class to finish it up if need be, or miss one on a friday afternoon if a friend is in town, but I wouldn't take it to that extent ballz.
   I'm envious that your marks remain high even without attending, and agree that the upper-year courses (I, too, am first year) appear far more stimulating and that it's prudent to use your time efficiently, but I can't figure out why you were bursting to tell us that you skip classes. You know people are going to come in here all: "That's not behaving like an officer." 
   I'll leave you with this: you never know where you will meet your new best friend, your future spouse, or start your next great adventure. Don't waste lightly the opportunity of those classes, even if they are boring. You're paying for them, after all.


----------



## KMJAB

Ballz,

I have some experience with economics myself. I also have some experience with the rash and overconfident thinking of first year students.   Take it from a guy who knows; the course that has the greater value to your life, and the lectures that make you the critical and capable thinker that you just might, might, become one day, those are the English courses. 

Economics you can learn from a book. Understanding literature and history, and the philosophical insight that *should* define a university career, those come from the lectures, the debates and vibrant discussion of the classroom. An "A" doesn't mean nearly as much as learning to see the rich texture of a well written play, story or poem. 

You won't really understand this until 3rd or 4th year. The courses you take now are the foundations for the good stuff that comes later. Give literature another shot, ask around about the really good instructors and take their classes. Try history, philosophy or any of the other arts if they pique the interest more. I don't know what courses are available, but ask around, and I am sure you will find a couple of gems. The point is that these "boring" first year classes set the stage for whether you really understand the "good" senior classes. By the way, one of my favourite and most valuable courses was my required first year English course. 

But don't drop the economics, and stop skipping classes, it can become a very hard habit to break.  ;D

edit for clarity


----------



## Lumber

This is going to get ugly REALLY fast...

Ballz are you at RMC or civi-U?

Benny, you're right. If I was at civi-U I would go to every class just so I could meet cute girls  ;D, or maybe thats just being stuck in an all male school that's talking. Oh wait sorry, ya there's actually girls (cough) here.


----------



## ChaosTheory

I go to civvy-u, and I do my best to attend every lecture.  Stuff happens that causes me to miss a class occasionally but I absolutely hate it because then I feel like I am not going to understand any of the material for the final.  I end up sitting down with the textbook and the professor's powerpoint slides for a few hours that night to go over what  I should have learnt in that 50 minutes of class.  My civvy friends at this university often feel that they should not show up to lectures, tutorials or labs because they don't need to, they can just learn the material at home.  This is also why after two years they have around 40 credit hours and I am at 60 and I don't do summer semesters.  Point being ballz (and every other civvy-u member), whether you feel you need to go to class or not, you should really be going.  You will learn a lot more from just your lecture, the military is paying for you to go you have an obligation to go and it is not good for your work ethics.  Past that I am not going to "rip you apart" because you should be old enough to realize you should be going.


----------



## ballz

benny88 said:
			
		

> but I can't figure out why you were bursting to tell us that you skip classes. You know people are going to come in here all: "That's not behaving like an officer."



I had to say it for the sake of the discussion and my point. I'm on the same side of the fence as you: we're big and ugly enough to decide whats important and when. Like I said, I don't miss an economics class cause I know it will affect my performance. That's just not the case in my other classes.

kmjab: The stuff she goes over in the lecture is stuff I can already see. I'm sure she could dive a hell of a lot deeper into, but then the rest of the class would be left going "wtf." The stuff she points out is just clear as day to me, so yeah... kinda hard to get enlightened. Anyway, I have 2 electives next semester which will be French and German, and then after next semester I won't have to do anymore god damn electives anyway (seriously, they're just to steal our money anyway).


----------



## Strike

So, if I was to follow that method of thinking, (using the example of my being at a flying unit as opposed to the HQ I'm at now) I should only go to work when I'm scheduled to fly or we have mandatory briefings.

If everyone at the Sqn were to do that then there would be no maintenance flights, since they are scheduled the day of.  It's very rare to have them scheduled ahead of time.  There would also be a lot more cancellations of assigned missions to support the Army.  Imagine one of the pilots in a crew being grounded and there are no replacements available, since they weren't scheduled.

This is the point being brought up.  Just because you may find some of these lectures useless, you may very well end up missing something important.

I'm not saying some of Lumber's points don't make sense.  Let's say you miss a class because you have an assignment due and your computer picked up a virus and killed the essay.  I'd say that's legitimate.  But sloughing off a class simply because you want to sleep in?  God, you'd never last in my office with that attitude.


----------



## dwalter

ballz said:
			
		

> Anyway, I have 2 electives next semester which will be French and German, and then after next semester I won't have to do anymore god damn electives anyway (seriously, they're just to steal our money anyway).



You realize electives are there so that you can expand your horizons, not staying locked rigidly into your program of choice? Trust me, you will be thankful to take a break from your program and getting to take another course that interests you. I took anthropology and archaeology this year and LOVED them! I'm not majoring in Anthro, but the courses are just amazing. 

So what if you pay for them? Everyone has to take elective credits, everyone pays for them. Don't complain, just take the opportunity and enjoy it. University is there to be taken advantage of. You should be taking lots of interesting classes, meeting all kinds of people, joining clubs and teams, and having fun!


----------



## ballz

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> You realize electives are there so that you can expand your horizons, not staying locked rigidly into your program of choice? Trust me, you will be thankful to take a break from your program and getting to take another course that interests you. I took anthropology and archaeology this year and LOVED them! I'm not majoring in Anthro, but the courses are just amazing.
> 
> So what if you pay for them? Everyone has to take elective credits, everyone pays for them. Don't complain, just take the opportunity and enjoy it. University is there to be taken advantage of. You should be taking lots of interesting classes, meeting all kinds of people, joining clubs and teams, and having fun!



The way I see it, I am paying to study business. Making "*non-business* electives" a requirement to get a business degree is forcing me to pay extra money for something that I do not want. If I didn't have to take 3 electives in my first year, I could pretty well be finished my degree a full semester earlier. It should be my choice to decide whether I want study Athropology or Art History or Folklore or whatever, and whether I want to pay them money to teach me about it. I don't want to pay them money to teach me about those things, I want to pay them money to teach me about business. Hence why I'm trying to obtain a business degree and not a folklore degree.

I do not disagree that it is good to expand your horizons, and not be limited to knowing everything about one thing and nothing about anything. I happen to be interested in a lot of other things, and if I had the choice I'd probably learn French and German on my own, I would just like to have that choice, because I'd probably wouldn't do them while I'm doing my degree. I'd also like to take a few physics classes, but no, I'm not allowed to do physics, somehow thats less mind-expanding than folklore.

Anyway, like I said, it's just my two cents worth.


----------



## PMedMoe

I believe this may sum it all up:


----------



## PAT-Platoon

Be careful with skipping however. After completing the worst semester of schooling in my life (in university no less) I still am having trouble rebuilding a work ethic. You'd think an infantryman would be able to suck it up and soldier on and get his work done, and go to classes but you'd be surprised how hard it is to apply things you already know on different work. I highly suggest minimizing skipping, even if it's for good reasons. What happens is that, you start talking yourself into skipping and giving yourself excuses, reasons or way to work your way around it. This then moves itself into assignments themselves (oh, this essay is only worth %10, w/e I can make it up in the next assignment...) and then you're are sorely wondering how you could be such a lazy sob. So watch yourself....


----------



## dbouls

Alright, here's my situation:

I'm a second year university student at University of Ontario IT. I've applied for ROTP, filled out my paperwork, passed the aptitude test and have my interview and medical next Friday morning. These are the questions I want to know:

1. Has anyone been in this same situation? (Being in 2nd year and trying to get into ROTP). If so, what's your story?

2. If you haven't been in my same situation, what are your thoughts on my chances of being accepted?

I assume that if I'm accepted to the ROTP, I will still have to serve 5 years (Which is okay, I plan to serve longer anyways). I have already taken care of 2 of the 4 years of my degree, so would I be seen as "half-price"? since they would only have to subsidize the remaining 2 years of my program? Just a thought. 

The recruiter has told me that I would stay at my university and going to RMC is only an option if you start at the very beginning, so I already know about all that stuff.


----------



## ringer98

Not sure about the university questions, but I know that the contract length for officer is 13 years not 5


----------



## George Wallace

As it took me only a few minutes, (less than 5), to find a topic that had most of the information to answer these questions and then merge them to this topic, I would like to suggest that people do a little more "research" before asking for answers to questions that have already been asked.   We have a SEARCH function.  We have separated the site into various categories of forums.  We have given Topics appropriate titles in as many cases as possible to facilitate easy browsing.  What more can we do, without having to spoonfeed people?  It is especially essential for those joining the CF, at any rank, to learn initiative and research skills to advance.  Lack of initiative and laziness will mean failure and administrative burden on the CF.  

In my Trade the lack of initiative, research skills, writting skills, computer skills, and lack of the ability to be trusted and get a Security Clearance means immediate release from the Trade.

If you aspire to be an officer in the CF, be expected to be held to a high standard.  Be expected to know how to do your research.  You will be the one who your subordinates will come to expecting this of you.


----------



## dbouls

I'll try not to take the last post personally because I know you get a lot of redundant posts, but with that said - it's not exactly the welcome I expected after my first post.  However, I'd like to justify my laziness by saying that I'm not very familiar with forums and this topic wasn't addressed in "Recruiting Forum Introduction and FAQ" thread on the main Recruiting page. I thought the topic hadn't been touched on before. I honestly didn't think these forums are as massive as they are and I thought that the FAQ served as some kind of an index. I was wrong. I apologize for making your job more frustrating that it should be, I'll try my best to search for the thread that answers my questions before I post something of my own. Lesson learned, and thanks for letting me know what I'm getting into.


----------



## ballz

Atta kid, don't take it personally, because if you do the military isn't for you haha.

Anyway, to answer part of your question, you will NOT have an obligatory service period of 5 years. The method is, 2 months of service for every 1 month of tuition paid. Seeing as how you have 2 years left, each with 8 months of schooling I'm assuming, you'll be required to serve 32 months.

That being said, I think there is a maximum amount of schooling your allowed to be completed, and you may be passed that maximum, since you wouldn't even be a captain before your obligatory service would be complete.


----------



## checkmate_ca

Well I applied last year when I was in my first year, I think they look at your marks more then anything. If you are getting good marks then your chance should be pretty high. Well good luck and study hard and do well in school.


----------



## SupersonicMax

ballz said:
			
		

> That being said, I think there is a maximum amount of schooling your allowed to be completed, and you may be passed that maximum, since you wouldn't even be a captain before your obligatory service would be complete.



???


----------



## ballz

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> ???



I am pretty sure I read SOMEWHERE that if you have "x" amount of your degree complete, you are not elligible for ROTP. I mean think about it, what if someone were to apply with one semester left? They subsidize your last semester, pay you a salary the entire time. In 4 months you get your commission, and then you leave in 8 months as a 2nd LT? Not to take anything away from a 2ndLT's importance, but I don't think they would consider that a useful investment.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Oh gotcha, I just didn't understand what you meant by that.


----------



## IntlBr

dbouls said:
			
		

> Alright, here's my situation:
> 
> I'm a second year university student at University of Ontario IT. I've applied for ROTP, filled out my paperwork, passed the aptitude test and have my interview and medical next Friday morning. These are the questions I want to know:
> 
> 1. Has anyone been in this same situation? (Being in 2nd year and trying to get into ROTP). If so, what's your story?
> 
> 2. If you haven't been in my same situation, what are your thoughts on my chances of being accepted?
> 
> I assume that if I'm accepted to the ROTP, I will still have to serve 5 years (Which is okay, I plan to serve longer anyways). I have already taken care of 2 of the 4 years of my degree, so would I be seen as "half-price"? since they would only have to subsidize the remaining 2 years of my program? Just a thought.
> 
> The recruiter has told me that I would stay at my university and going to RMC is only an option if you start at the very beginning, so I already know about all that stuff.



I was in this position last year - mind you I was already in the PRes, not that it meant anything really aside from making me a slightly more attractive candidate.

I applied during my second year, and was picked up in relatively short order - word came back well before I received my actual offer to complete my degree at the University of Guelph that I could accept a position at RMC this year.  The only condition would be that I would start back in first year, and do four years at RMC - with some credits accredited, making for a lighter work load while at RMC, but also slightly frustrating as it would mean the past two years of university were anulled.  

I waited to see if a CivvyU offer would come out when they actually started calling about ROTP positions (somehow I'd been accepted to RMC at least a month before the actual ROTP offers came out) and when my actual offer came (I had already tactfully declined the RMC position if I could finish at CivvyU), I received my choice of CivvyU or RMC - and I chose CivvyU.

As for minimum amount of schooling, you cannot apply after the end of your second year of education at a Civilian University - unless you intend to go to RMC and start back in first year, and do more or less what I had been offered to do, transfer some credits, and go for another four years.  So, if you had waited until next year, you'd more or less be out of luck.

Good luck with the process!


----------



## George Wallace

ballz said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure I read SOMEWHERE that if you have "x" amount of your degree complete, you are not elligible for ROTP. I mean think about it, what if someone were to apply with one semester left? They subsidize your last semester, pay you a salary the entire time. In 4 months you get your commission, and then you leave in 8 months as a 2nd LT? Not to take anything away from a 2ndLT's importance, but I don't think they would consider that a useful investment.



ballz

You have to realize that ROTP involves more than just CMR/RMC or Civi U studies.  It also includes a minimum of four Phases of Officer Training in the Trade that the candidate has been selected for.  For instance, someone going in as an Armour Officer, would still be required to complete their Degree as well as four Phases of Armour Officer Training at the Armour School at the Combat Training Center in CFB Gagetown.


----------



## ballz

I do understand this?

What is it that you're getting at...?


----------



## George Wallace

ballz said:
			
		

> I do understand this?
> 
> What is it that you're getting at...?



OK.  You are totally outside of your lanes.

What I am getting at, is that it will not be four months of schooling and then 8 months as a 2 LT for anyone.  Each of the four Phases is a minimum of three months long.  That is at least a year of back to back courses to make an Armour Officer, and the School doesn't schedule courses like that, so the time taken will be longer.

All Officers entering the CF, will have different Terms of Service due to the different Entry Plans, the different Trades, etc.  Unless one knows all the details of this person, one CAN NOT say precisely how long they will have to serve after completing their Degree.  Terms of Service are different for officers who enter through ROTP, DEO, CEOTP, one of the Medical Programs, one of the Legal Programs, Chaplaincy, or Pilot, or any of the other programs.

Best advice is to sit down with someone at the CFRC and discuss what Plan best suits you.  Then you will know what Terms of Service you will be employed as, and what obligatory service you will be expected to do.


----------



## ballz

Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.

But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.

That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.


----------



## dbouls

ballz said:
			
		

> Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.
> 
> But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.
> 
> That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.



Yep same here, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## chris_log

ballz said:
			
		

> Ah, now I see where you are coming from. And yes, I agree with you, and it's just more of a reason for them to have a minimum amount of school subsidized. Train you for a year so you can work for 8 months, not very economical is it.
> 
> But the obligatory service for *most* trades is 2 months per 1 month of tuition. You get into stuff like Law and whatnot and yeah, there's a few more details, but for *most* trades its pretty straight forward. 2 months per 1 month of tuition, and a minimum of 2 years of subsidized education.
> 
> That is a regurgitation of what I've been told by recruiters during my whole ROTP fiasco.



You are confusing obligatory service (paying back your schooling) and you Terms of Service (the contract you sign when you join). So, regardless of how long you are subsidised for you will still have a contract you have to serve out (various between 9-13 years on average for ROTP types). 

I don't understand what you guys are told at the recruiting centre but you will sign a VIE when you join up for ROTP which is a contract you must serve out. The obligatory service is merely what you have to serve out to pay back for school unless you wish to incurr financial obligations. 

See here for the new Reg F TOS http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp


----------



## SupersonicMax

Piper, MUST is a big word.  You may release if the CF agrees after you compulsory service...


----------



## chris_log

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Piper, MUST is a big word.  You may release if the CF agrees after you compulsory service...



Yes, yes we've been over this. It is possible to release after you've served enough to pay back your schooling. This is a real bone of contention for you isn't it...backing out of contracts.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I just don't want people seeing themselve stuck for 13 years (and backing off from enrolment) when they aren't really stuck for 13 years.  It IS possible to release, however not guaranteed.  And for the interested, it WON'T put a black mark on your file.  

In 5, 10, 15 years, your life can change... A lot.  The engagements you took 10 years ago may not still be best for and/or the CF anymore.  Plus, how many young ROTP candidates REALLY understand the terms of the contract they sign?  I sure didn't understand all of them.  I do now, but at 16, I don't think I had the maturity and knowledge to understand all that...


----------



## chris_log

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I just don't want people seeing themselve stuck for 13 years (and backing off from enrolment) when they aren't really stuck for 13 years.  It IS possible to release, however not guaranteed.  And for the interested, it WON'T put a black mark on your file.



People who aren't ready to commit to the full terms of a contract shouldn't sign it, full stop. Better they don't enroll and waste time and money if they are not willing to be 'stuck' for 9-13 years. If you don't want to be 'stuck', pay for your own degree and join as a DEO with a far shorter contract. 



> In 5, 10, 15 years, your life can change... A lot.  The engagements you took 10 years ago may not still be best for and/or the CF anymore.  Plus, how many young ROTP candidates REALLY understand the terms of the contract they sign?  I sure didn't understand all of them.  I do now, but at 16, I don't think I had the maturity and knowledge to understand all that...



Again, if someone isn't ready to sign, then don't sign (there's a reason that parents have to sign off on kids under 18 joining). So just because someone may not have fully read the contract they signed we have to say 'ok, poor you, go on your way'? No. If you don't understand, don't sign. 

I REALLY take issue when people feel that its ok to back out on their CF commitments after they've gotten the free school and paid back their obligatory service. 

Your VIE is however long it is, and you have to serve it out. If you want to leave, you can ask...nicely. BUT, it's not a guarantee. Theres no guarantee at all.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Nope, no guarantee.  However, it is an option.  As I said, many many things can happen in 13 years.  You cannot predict the future and if the CF wasn't ready to loose people before the end of their engagement, they wouldn't allow people to apply for release.  Somehow, someone with a bigger bar than us thinks it's a good idea to allow the request of a release.  Personally, I don't see anyting wrong with someone that request a release after his Compulsory Service as he already "paid back" his education.  The extra X years don't pay for the education.  Is it a good thing to plan for that?  Absolutely not.  Is it bad if someone asks for a release before his contract comes to term?  Absolutely not.  Once you get a little older (a few more years, finish RMC first), you'll see that a lot of things can happen in a short period of time that may affect your initial decision to serve for 13 years.  You cannot, for 13 years, dedicated entirely your life to the military.  You have a personnal life, your priorities change, and yes, shit happens.  Actually you can dedicate your 100% to the military.  But you won't have anything besides the military...


----------



## dbouls

I agree with Piper about contractual obligations, If you don't know what you're getting into - don't give your word.

Right now I'm 19 and I've made the choice regarding to career in the Canadian Forces. I've been trying to understand the subculture of the forces by reading as much as I can on these message boards, but so far I'm getting the impression of slight bitterness from people when the ROTP program comes up. Do a lot of people just join for the free school then get out when they've done their time? I find that cheap. 

I think the idea of "free school" shouldn't be the motivator to join the Forces, the motivators should be the obvious reasons like serving your country, rewarding career etc.. 

Regardless of the ROTP program I would still join the Forces because I want this to be my career, I see the program as a good way to be ready for when you're done University (You do all the training in the summers and then by the end, you're ready to serve).

Should I bring this up in my interview? because I don't want them to think that I'm just doing the ROTP program to get a free ride, I just want to train for my career while in University.


----------



## ballz

Piper said:
			
		

> You are confusing obligatory service (paying back your schooling) and you Terms of Service (the contract you sign when you join). So, regardless of how long you are subsidised for you will still have a contract you have to serve out (various between 9-13 years on average for ROTP types).
> 
> I don't understand what you guys are told at the recruiting centre but you will sign a VIE when you join up for ROTP which is a contract you must serve out. *The obligatory service is merely what you have to serve out to pay back for school unless you wish to incurr financial obligations.*
> 
> See here for the new Reg F TOS http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnA1_e.asp



I was not confusing obligatory service with the actual contract. What you just said is your "obligatory service" is exactly what I was talking about it, and exactly what I referred to as "obligatory service."

On the topic of the contracts, I plan on doing a full career in the CF. That being said, if there was no way of getting out of a 13 year contract, I would not have signed up. I was 18 years old when I signed up, 13 years is almost as long as my frickin lifetime. How can ANYBODY be expected to KNOW where they will sit in 13 years? I have full intentions of fullfilling my "contract," but if I were not able to get out of that contract, I sure as hell wouldn't sign it.

If the terms of the contract were fixed, then I could possibly seeing it. If pay were garunteed under the contract, benefits, living conditions, etc, then yes. But as long as pay and all that stuff is allowed to change, then I shoudl be able to 'change my mind" so to speak. It's not like a normal contract where its "13 years @ this much for year 1,2,3, and this much for year 4,5,6, etc." And so its not even a real contract in my opinion.

What happens if in 8 years the green party has power of Canada and a 5th year captain is making 10k a year and forced to live in the barracks even though he's got a wife and kids, and his wife is out of work cause she worked in an oil-related field. He should have to fullfill his next 5 years at 10k a year, even though when he signed up he should have been making 70-80k a year at this point?

F**k that noise!


----------



## SupersonicMax

dbouls said:
			
		

> I think the idea of "free school" shouldn't be the motivator to join the Forces, the motivators should be the obvious reasons like serving your country, rewarding career etc..



It's not right to join for these reasons, however, as I said, the life around you will change, and you may find a few years after your compulsory service is over that other factors may come to your life (that you will develop after you're done University, like a significant other, kids, parents getting older, financial situations, opportunities). 

Again, if the CF wouldn't want you to be able to leave, they wouldn't make the release program available to us...  

BTW Piper, Compulsory Service isn't merely paying back for your education, it IS paying back for you education (to the eyes of the CFs).


----------



## chris_log

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Nope, no guarantee.  However, it is an option.  As I said, many many things can happen in 13 years.  You cannot predict the future and if the CF wasn't ready to loose people before the end of their engagement, they wouldn't allow people to apply for release.  Somehow, someone with a bigger bar than us thinks it's a good idea to allow the request of a release.  Personally, I don't see anyting wrong with someone that request a release after his Compulsory Service as he already "paid back" his education.  The extra X years don't pay for the education.  Is it a good thing to plan for that?  Absolutely not.  Is it bad if someone asks for a release before his contract comes to term?  Absolutely not.  Once you get a little older (a few more years, finish RMC first), you'll see that a lot of things can happen in a short period of time that may affect your initial decision to serve for 13 years.  You cannot, for 13 years, dedicated entirely your life to the military.  You have a personnal life, your priorities change, and yes, crap happens.  Actually you can dedicate your 100% to the military.  But you won't have anything besides the military...



First off, I don't go to RMC (I'm pretty serious about making that distinction). 

Secondly, I know full well how 'things change'. You're not much older (and not much more experienced) then I am, so don't try to be patronising. If you sign a contract you should be held to it. EVERYONE knows that military life is hard, especially if you have a family and if you are not prepared for that then either don't join or don't knock someone up and end up with a family until your contract is up (an example of how things change). I'm not sure how things work in your job, but if you talk to junior officers in my field of work you DO dedicate yourself 100% to the military as a junior officer. There are lots of secondary jobs, odd jobs, duty etc to be done and if you aren't ready for that, don't sign. One of the best lines I was told (when discussing apartments) was 'live in the shacks, you'll never be home anyways except for a change of clothes'. 



> I was not confusing obligatory service with the actual contract. What you just said is your "obligatory service" is exactly what I was talking about it, and exactly what I referred to as "obligatory service."
> 
> On the topic of the contracts, I plan on doing a full career in the CF. That being said, if there was no way of getting out of a 13 year contract, I would not have signed up. I was 18 years old when I signed up, 13 years is almost as long as my frickin lifetime. How can ANYBODY be expected to KNOW where they will sit in 13 years? I have full intentions of fullfilling my "contract," but if I were not able to get out of that contract, I sure as hell wouldn't sign it.
> 
> If the terms of the contract were fixed, then I could possibly seeing it. If pay were garunteed under the contract, benefits, living conditions, etc, then yes. But as long as pay and all that stuff is allowed to change, then I shoudl be able to 'change my mind" so to speak. It's not like a normal contract where its "13 years @ this much for year 1,2,3, and this much for year 4,5,6, etc." And so its not even a real contract in my opinion.
> 
> What happens if in 8 years the green party has power of Canada and a 5th year captain is making 10k a year and forced to live in the barracks even though he's got a wife and kids, and his wife is out of work cause she worked in an oil-related field. He should have to fullfill his next 5 years at 10k a year, even though when he signed up he should have been making 70-80k a year at this point?
> 
> F**k that noise!



So you want all the benefits of a CF career (education, training, work experience) but want that 'out' just in case? In other words, have your cake and eat it too. Your example is silly, they won't pay Capt's a salary that puts them below the poverty line...they'll retire you early. If you are going to use an example, at least pick one that is plausible. 

Finally, your line "who knows where people will sit in 13 years" really bugs me. If you don't want to have your life controlled by the CF for 13 years then DON'T JOIN ROTP. Pay for YOUR OWN degree and join as a DEO (if you are serious about serving) so that you aren't 'unfairly' tied down.

Ugh.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Piper, the CF accepts it.  If you can't accept it, too bad for you.  Some people have a life outside the military.

Yes, my job is demanding and during the week, I spend 95% of my time towards my job.  When I'm on days off however, I spend time with my family.  

What you suggest is absurd.  If you sign up at let's say, 17.  That means that until 30, an officer shouldn't have a family, a wife, kids?  What if the kid becomes sick?  What if the wife just can't do it anymore?  You suck it up, break your relationship?  It all depends on priorities I guess...  

I don't agree that the CF "controls" you.  That's the most idiotic thing I've heard.  It's supposed to be a win-win situation between you and the CF.  The day you, or the CF become unhappy (and I'm not talking superficial unhappiness) with how things are going, then it's better for you and the CF to release.  THAT'S WHY THERE IS A RELEASE SYSTEM.


----------



## ballz

How would that change anything? I would sign a 9 year "contract" at the end of a 4 year degree. That still doesn't change the fact that, if 3 or 4 years down the road the gov't starts making all kinds of cuts and completely changes everything and you went from a good job with a decent living to a job where you are under-equipped with your life on the line, and can no longer feed and cloth your dependants, you are stuck.

Look, my beef is with the word "contract" right from the get-go. It's not a proper "contract," its a load of f**kery. If a bank or a sports team or whatever wants to put me on a contract that I am obliged to complete without no chance of release, then you can be sure I won't sign it if they're allowed to sign me to that contract and drop my wage and standard of workplace the next day. And the same works with the CF. 

Those are not the terms of the contract that I signed. The contract I signed says I *may* be able to release. So if the gov't does decides that I'm not valuable to them, then I can possibly leave.

What you're saying is we should all go sign contracts with fixed terms but not fixed incomes. Would you recommend an athlete, no matter how sure he was that he wanted to play professional for his club, sign a contract that says "you will have to play for us for 13 years but we get to pay you whatever we want and we get to equip you with whatever we want."? Probably not, so why is it any different for military personnel?

Again, it should never even be called a contract.

As for something plausible, it is plausible under the contract you're suggesting. There is no garuntee they would say "well that just wouldn't be nice, so we'll give you early retirement." Why would they? If they've got you by the balls and can take advantage of you? Why would they?


----------



## Lumber

ballz said:
			
		

> Look, my beef is with the word "contract" right from the get-go. It's not a proper "contract," its a load of f**kery. If a bank or a sports team or whatever wants to put me on a contract that I am obliged to complete without no chance of release, then you can be sure I won't sign it if they're allowed to sign me to that contract and drop my wage and standard of workplace the next day.



ballz,

No contract is one hundred percent concrete. Contracts are broken all the time. Most contract have clauses in them that explain the procedure and penalties incurred resulting from the cancellation of the contract. Brian McCabe was on a 7 year contract for the Maple Leafs, but is he still there now? No.

...

Piper,



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> First off, I don't go to RMC (I'm *pretty serious* about making that distinction).



Why?



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how things work in your job, but if you talk to junior officers in my field of work you DO dedicate yourself 100% to the military as a junior officer. There are lots of secondary jobs, odd jobs, duty etc to be done and if you aren't ready for that, don't sign. One of the best lines I was told (when discussing apartments) was 'live in the shacks, you'll never be home anyways except for a change of clothes'.



You think that for the months and years that you're not on deployment. where you'll be sitting in an officer working 0800-1530 and 0800-1300 on Fridays in battalion that you'll have to more time than to go home to change your clothes? I'm sure you think that you're exaggerating just a little, but in reality this is a gross error. You'll have plenty of time at home, out in town with your friends (if you have any), at the gym etc. And I'm not talking on weekends either. 

In your field of work, eh? Go to talk to a sailor who spends 50% of his year, every year, at sea, away from his, his family, his friends.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> So you want all the benefits of a CF career (education, training, work experience) but want that 'out' just in case? In other words, have your cake and eat it too.



Yes, yes I do. Just like with any job. My dad is a fireman. He has an awesome pension plan, amazing hours, 8 weeks of vacation and benefits coming out of his wazoo. Could he up and quit tomorrow? Sure could.

Do you think, for some reason, that *unless* you put yourself in tunnel vision and say "there is nothing else but my job," that you won't be an effective leader? I would argue the exact opposite, actually. I would argue that unless you have a life, with friends, and a family, and hobbies, then you will not be as effective leader as possible. For one, as the CF, we work hard to protect these things; they are what we hold dear. Second, they make your life more pleasant, which is a strong motivator in job performance. The problem is, sometimes these things can conflict with your career. What if your wife or child needs to be on dialysis? Maybe you would think that taking care of them is more important than your continuing your career in the CF.  Personally, I don't know myself what I would do in this situation, but I feel comfortable knowing that should it arise, I have the option of terminating my contract to be with them should I choose to.


----------



## ballz

Lumber said:
			
		

> ballz,
> 
> No contract is one hundred percent concrete. Contracts are broken all the time. Most contract have clauses in them that explain the procedure and penalties incurred resulting from the cancellation of the contract. Brian McCabe was on a 7 year contract for the Maple Leafs, but is he still there now? No.



McCabe's contract was paid out to him, so it was fullfilled... Besides why are you arguing with me? We're on the same side of the fence for this one.


----------



## chris_log

Lumber said:
			
		

> You think that for the months and years that you're not on deployment. where you'll be sitting in an officer working 0800-1530 and 0800-1300 on Fridays in battalion that you'll have to more time than to go home to change your clothes? I'm sure you think that you're exaggerating just a little, but in reality this is a gross error. You'll have plenty of time at home, out in town with your friends (if you have any), at the gym etc. And I'm not talking on weekends either.
> 
> In your field of work, eh? Go to talk to a sailor who spends 50% of his year, every year, at sea, away from his, his family, his friends.



 : You havn't been in long enough to start anything with the whole "well in the navy we..." subject. Its a stupid argument used by amateurs. 

Yes, in my field of work. Junior officers (Lt-Capt) who have been at this for years. To use your example, you think you get off at 1300 on Friday eh? WRONG. Maybe your out of the office, then you've got sports...mandatory TGIF etc. It's not a gross error. I'll tell people I know at a certain unit in Pet that you think they get off at 1300 on Friday...they'll be happy to hear that. 

I (and anyone else with half a brain) will listen to people who have been there, not you (who hasn't been anywhere). Your basing your comments on what again (keep mind I've worked with a battalion before for a bit, so I DO have a basic working knowledge of what they get up to).......? 



> Do you think, for some reason, that unless you put yourself in tunnel vision and say "there is nothing else but my job," that you won't be an effective leader? I would argue the exact opposite, actually. I would argue that unless you have a life, with friends, and a family, and hobbies, then you will not be as effective leader as possible. For one, as the CF, we work hard to protect these things; they are what we hold dear. Second, they make your life more pleasant, which is a strong motivator in job performance. The problem is, sometimes these things can conflict with your career. What if your wife or child needs to be on dialysis? Maybe you would think that taking care of them is more important than your continuing your career in the CF.  Personally, I don't know myself what I would do in this situation, but I feel comfortable knowing that should it arise, I have the option of terminating my contract to be with them should I choose to.



I never said there shouldn't be an out. Just that people shouldn't go in with the thought that they can quit whenever the want with no problem. And for your information, there are many people in the CF who can handle far more desperate family situations and remain in the service. 

Still putting your foot in your mouth I see? Sigh.


----------



## ballz

Why are you arguing then? I'm sure not suggesting people go ahead and sign the contract because "there is an out." Like I said, you should have *full intentions* of fulfilling it. But to say that "if you wouldn't sign it if there weren't an out, then you shouldn't sign it at all" is quite simply stupid.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Piper, you don't have much experience eighter, and I doubt you have very much (if any) experience in a real unit in a real position (ok, maybe in the reserves). Have you experienced life outside school (ie: university)?  If not (and this is my guess since you're 21, and you're an Ocdt), then you'll realize after you get out of that "sterile" environment that real situations occur outside work, especially as you get older, the people around you get older and you get more and more responsibilities outside work.  It never happenned to me that I had to reconsider my decision to serve, however, I can see how a situation leading to that may develop. Different person, different priorities.  You can't expect EVERY member of the CF to be 1000% dedicated to the job, at all cost.  If we only enrolled that kind of candidate, we would have a very small army.  And yes, for some people, this is just an other job.

Again, you may have all the good intentions you want when you sign, however down the road (and 13 years is a LONG road), you may be confronted with a situation that will (and should) make you reconsider your initial decision.  For the 100th time, this is why we have a release system. This doesn't only come from me, but also from the chains of command I served under, which made it clear that there is nothing wrong with someone leaving at the end of their compulsory service if they so wish then.  If the military was to keep everyone after their compulsory service, it could lead to demographic problems.  Not everybody can be promoted past Captains and you can only have so many "old" Captains.  You need room for the brand new, full of piss and vinegar Captains.  The system is made that way.  As the years go, so does the number of people you started with.

I don't understand why you make such a big deal of it when the CF are totally onboard with the release program and make it available to the members...


----------



## chris_log

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Piper, you don't have much experience eighter, and I doubt you have very much (if any) experience in a real unit in a real position (ok, maybe in the reserves). *Have you experienced life outside school *  (ie: university)?  *If not (and this is my guess since you're 21, and you're an Ocdt), *  then you'll realize after you get out of that "sterile" environment that real situations occur outside work, especially as you get older, the people around you get older and you get more and more responsibilities outside work.  It never happenned to me that I had to reconsider my decision to serve, however, I can see how a situation leading to that may develop. Different person, different priorities.  You can't expect EVERY member of the CF to be 1000% dedicated to the job, at all cost.  If we only enrolled that kind of candidate, we would have a very small army.  And yes, for some people, this is just an other job



Yes, I have.  :

Well, I've made my point. And I'm tired of aruging this over and over. I'll leave you with one more thought, since you like to aruge that 'its what people with more bars think is right'....it has been proven time and time again that what the 'big guys' think is right is not necessarily the best idea.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Piper, so you have a house, a spouse/wife/husband, animals, kids? 

I doubt that 5 different chain of commands would all be terriblly wrong on their end.  They have a broader picture that you and I have.  As a counter question, what problems has the release system brought to the CF?


----------



## aesop081

Piper said:
			
		

> it has been proven time and time again that what the 'big guys' think is right is not necessarily the best idea.



Be that as it may, when someone with more bars tells you to do something.......stfu and do it regardless of what you think. I'm pretty sure that this also has been proven time and time again.


----------



## PMedMoe

This may be slightly off topic, but if anyone thinks 13 years is a long road for a career, don't bother getting married or having children.

If someone had offered me an education for signing a contract, I would have stayed in university.


----------



## Drag

I completely agree with you Max in that if we only recruited, the gung-ho, Rambo, " if the army wanted you to have a wife and a life outside of work they would issue them to you" types, we would be in serious trouble.   I like military life and plan on sticking with it, but you never know what could happen when life happens.  Once your obligatory service is done, unless there is a service necessity, you should be free to release.  That is why people who VR before completing theircontacts do not get severance and IRP moves.


----------



## Lumber

Piper said:
			
		

> : You havn't been in long enough to start anything with the whole "well in the navy we..." subject. Its a stupid argument used by amateurs.



You don't even need to be in the navy to know they spend a lot of time at sea away from families. It's not a stupid argument at all; I use the example because I relate to the navy.

And YOU haven't been in long enough either. I'm sorry, but at 21, and being in civilian university, there's no way you've spent enough time "in Battalion" to claim anything.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:


----------



## aesop081

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:



The blind leading the blind again........its an awesome leadership skill.


----------



## ballz

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:



Never sir, has my naiveness been put into such great context. Thank you haha.


----------



## x_EN

I'm finishing my 11th year of high school, so this is a far off concern. I'm interested in the direct-entry to the officer corps, and I have read through various sources including this website that a university degree is practically a requirement for candidacy. This is good, because I was planning to take a bachelor's degree in chemistry, and I have also read that the CF will subsidize your continuing education if you sign on for an extended tour of duty (5 years I believe). 

What I'm slightly confused about are the specifics. Does this mean that immediately after high school you are paid to attend RMC in Kingston? Or does it go beyond this? For example, if I wanted to get a B.Sc. in chemistry at the University of British Columbia, would the CF pay for my education there in part or in its entirety? If this is an option, how many years would I attend the RMC after completing a bachelor's degree? Would I enlist immediately after high school, halfway through my university education, or at its conclusion?

One final question was to do with vision - I am slightly nearsighted, so I wear contact lenses. There have been many threads to do with vision problems and laser eye surgery in the air force (where anything less than natural 20/20 vision is unacceptable), but I have not found the answer to this question. The vision impairment is so slight that I am legally allowed to drive without glasses (though my vision has probably deteriorated since I got my licence), but I'm thinking of getting laser eye surgery at some point to correct it. Would this be a problem or cause me to have some restrictions on my service if this is the case?

Thanks in advance for answering the load of questions I threw down.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I would suggest your start by searching for "ROTP" and "Pilot Vision" on the forum.  If you have further questions after reading, fire away.


----------



## Brasidas

x_EN said:
			
		

> I'm finishing my 11th year of high school, so this is a far off concern. I'm interested in the direct-entry to the officer corps, and I have read through various sources including this website that a university degree is practically a requirement for candidacy. This is good, because I was planning to take a bachelor's degree in chemistry, and I have also read that the CF will subsidize your continuing education if you sign on for an extended tour of duty (5 years I believe).



The CF will (partially) subsidize a lot of post secondary education programs for simply being in the reserves. Look for references to ILP. Full subsidy of undergraduate programs is available through ROTP, which does mean an obligation of years of service.



> One final question was to do with vision - I am slightly nearsighted, so I wear contact lenses. There have been many threads to do with vision problems and laser eye surgery in the air force (where anything less than natural 20/20 vision is unacceptable), but I have not found the answer to this question. The vision impairment is so slight that I am legally allowed to drive without glasses (though my vision has probably deteriorated since I got my licence), but I'm thinking of getting laser eye surgery at some point to correct it. Would this be a problem or cause me to have some restrictions on my service if this is the case?



You no longer have to be born (and keep) 20/20 vision to be a pilot anymore. It's possible to get laser surgery these days. Check with your CFRC to confirm what surgeries they have concerns about and what restrictions you'll have (eg. needing to wait six months before your application goes any further after surgery).


----------



## x_EN

I did do a fair bit of reading around these forums, not sure how I missed the entire forum dedicated to RMC and ROTP though. Thanks for the quick reply in any case. I can also see how you misunderstood my question about vision, it was badly worded. What I meant was that I had seen the threads to do with vision in the air force branch, but none for general service in the army (which I would like to go into). I take it if the air force has loosened their standards in that area, the army certainly has the same or more relaxed vision requirements.

 I'll definitely go to the recruitment center to get more details on the education options.


----------



## Nantook

A couple years ago I had to drop out of University due to financial reasons and a lack of motivation on my part. Things are a lot better now but i'm curious if I would still be considered for RMC having already gone to university? I've only completed 10 courses (equivalent of a full year). Thanks in advance


----------



## George Wallace

As long as you have a minimum of two years remaining, as stated in other topics on this subject, you will still be eligible for subsidized education through ROTP.  That being said, your previous marks in High School and University will be looked at and will be a huge factor in whether or not you will be competitive enough to be accepted into the Plan.


----------



## 097004610

I too have previously dropped out of college (10 years ago) and am applying to ROTP.  My highschool marks weren't the best nor were my previous college marks.  However, I have been accepted into the Bachelor of Science in Nursing program at my current school.  Previous to this acceptance I took a certificate program in Pre-Health sciences.  My avg in my most recent program was 90%.  I was told that they would only look at my current marks (the 90%) as it was a long time ago since highschool.  I don't know how long you have been out of school however, I would assume they would take your most recent marks from university from what I am to understand.

Am I wrong?


----------



## breezie

As far as I know, they will want to see everything. I graduated from high school in 1990, and they still wanted to see my transcripts when I applied in 2007! Good luck! Do whatever you can to make yourself a good candidate now (fitness, knowledge of your trade, etc), and hopefully that will counterbalance any bad grades you had in the past.


----------



## chris_log

You'll never know unless you apply.


----------



## tyciol

About that minimum 2 years remaining thing: if one enters RMC, do you think it'd be possible after completing RMC degrees to go back and finish the remaining 2 years through part-time education while serving in one's occupation, or barring that, take a leave of absence after the mandatory 5 years to complete it (and have 2 degrees) before signing on for another term of enlistment?


----------



## chris_log

tyciol said:
			
		

> About that minimum 2 years remaining thing: if one enters RMC, do you think it'd be possible after completing RMC degrees to go back and finish the remaining 2 years through part-time education while serving in one's occupation, or barring that, take a leave of absence after the mandatory 5 years to complete it (and have 2 degrees) before signing on for another term of enlistment?



If you want to complete a degree on your own time while you're working, you can. It depends on how busy you are at work etc, and junior officers often have 'professional development' courses etc that you have to complete. 

You can also release after your contract, go back to school then re-apply to the CF...if you want (although the CF won't normally, if ever, subsidise you for a second undergrad degree).


----------



## Engineer79

Hey again everyone,

First let me assure you two thing: 1. I did about 6 hours of searching on these forums looking for a DEFINATIVE answer to my question. 2. This morning i took a trip to the CFRC (which is where my confusion initially rose)

I sat with a recruiter, and i told him i have everything filled out, but instead of the reserves i wanted to join the regular force (ROTP was my first choice entry plan). He said that might be a problem since i have already finished 2 years of my degree (and its too late to subsidize for the 3rd year since it starts within a month). That leaves the ROTP subsidization for only one year. He wasn't too sure if this was allowed, so he asked another recruiter B who was behind him, recruiter B first said that it was allowed, then he asked recruiter C who said it wasn't allowed, then recruiter B decided to change his mind, until recruiter D came along and changed recruiter C's mind  :crybaby: . And no, im not joking around with you guys/gals, this really happend - in the end, the recruiter said OK, and gave me a ROTP form to fill out. But i still didn't get a definative answer from them (i.e. i don't want to fill out these forums only to go back and be told that i can't apply anymore.

So i read more then enough share of threads with people in similar position as i am. To be honest, there is no definative answer to my question - some people claim that they only got 1 year of ROTP, while others claim that its not allowed.

Does anyone have a DEFINATIVE answer, preferably with a official link/reference? I just can't rely on words or conversation anymore (no offence to anyone), i want to reply on official definative information.

Also, has first hand experience/story of people in similar situation should be shared


----------



## Jayson Wonder

Hey,

Althought I don't have a definitive answer to your question, after reading the post I thought I would mention CEOTP as it seem you might meet that criteria. I am sure you have come across it in your research already.

The other thing I did when I was given information that was not clear or required a more definitive answer I went on the forces.ca site and logged into the online chat to recruiter feature. On some occasions they had the latest or more accutate information for me. This might help you too.

Good luck,


----------



## Quag

I don't have a reference but I can tell you that I know of at least 3 people off hand that were only subsidized one year.  Hope that helps.


----------



## George Wallace

For Subsidized Education under ROTP you require a minimum of two years left towards your Degree.  If you have one year left, why don't you just finish it and apply as DEO?


As for your six hours of searching, I can positively say, you failed as I have already answered this question before; as recently as within the past 20 days.  To prove it I will merge this topic into the appropriate topic in the ROTP forum (NOT RECRUITING) for you.


----------



## Engineer79

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For Subsidized Education under ROTP you require a minimum of two years left towards your Degree.  If you have one year left, why don't you just finish it and apply as DEO?
> 
> 
> As for your six hours of searching, I can positively say, you failed as I have already answered this question before; as recently as within the past 20 days.  To prove it I will merge this topic into the appropriate topic in the ROTP forum (NOT RECRUITING) for you.



Hi Wallace,

As i mentioned in my previous post, i was looking for a DEFINITIVE answer. Please try to remember i am new to this forum, so i am still not sure who to trust, which is exactly why i stated i need documented information rather then mere words (Don't get me wrong, its not that i don't trust you or anyone else on these forums, rather, i would like to make an informed decision). Now, this may come as a surprise to you, but i DID read your posts about ROTP (not only those 20 days ago, but those going back many months ago  ). However, some members disagree with you, either due to first hand experience or through a friend who has been in a similar situation.

Now, as you said, subsidized education under ROTP require a minimum of two years left towards my degree, however, a couple recruiters at the CFRC disagree with you (as i mentioned in my original post). I hope you understand why my 6 hours of searching (and reading, i wasn't just searching words for those six hours ;D) led to no DEFINITIVE answers.

Also, Wallace, i have two more years left to my degree, not one year. But since one of those two years is about to start in less then a month, ROTP is not possible for the upcoming year (according to the CFRC). But yes, DEO was my second option, but i wanted some definitive answers about ROTP before i go through that path.

Lastly, i saw MANY posts, such as the one above by 'Quag', that some people they know have recieved subsidized education for only one year - any explanation to that?


----------



## George Wallace

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> As i mentioned in my previous post, i was looking for a DEFINITIVE answer. Please try to remember i am new to this forum, so i am still not sure who to trust, which is exactly why i stated i need documented information rather then mere words (Don't get me wrong, its not that i don't trust you or anyone else in these forums, but i would like to make an informed decision). Now, as this may come as a surprise to you i DID read your posts about ROTP (not only those 20 days ago, but those going back many months ago  ).
> 
> Now, as you said, subsidized education under ROTP require a minimum of two years left towards my degree, however, a couple recruiters at the CFRC disagree with you (as i mentioned in my original post). I hope you understand why my 6 hours of searching (and reading, i wasn't just searching words for those six hours ;D) led to no DEFINITIVE answers.
> 
> Also, Wallace, i have two more years left to my degree, not one year. But since one of those two years is about to start in less then a month, ROTP is not possible for the upcoming year (according to the CFRC). But yes, DEO was my second option, but i wanted some definitive answers about ROTP before i go through that path.
> 
> Lastly, i saw MANY posts, such as the one above by 'Quag', that some people they know have recieved subsidized education for only one year - any explanation to that?



 :

If you really want "a DEFINITIVE answer" and you "need documented information rather then mere words", then you have come to the wrong place.  You will only get that at the CFRC.  This is an UNOFFICIAL Canadian Forces Site, that happens to be privately owned.  

I also am finding it hard to believe that you have two years of education at an institution of higher learning, if you don't know the proper use of capitalization of the word "I".  

The current rules at the CFRC for persons applying for ROTP are that they must have a minimum of two years left towards their Degree.  If you do not meet that criteria, then you are not eligible.  You have two choices: 
1. Try to apply under another Entry Plan; or
2. Walk away.

Is that clear enough for you?


----------



## Engineer79

George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> 
> If you really want "a DEFINITIVE answer" and you "need documented information rather then mere words", then you have come to the wrong place.  You will only get that at the CFRC.  This is an UNOFFICIAL Canadian Forces Site, that happens to be privately owned.
> 
> I also am finding it hard to believe that you have two years of education at an institution of higher learning, if you don't know the proper use of capitalization of the word "I".
> 
> The current rules at the CFRC for persons applying for ROTP are that they must have a minimum of two years left towards their Degree.  If you do not meet that criteria, then you are not eligible.  You have two choices:
> 1. Try to apply under another Entry Plan; or
> 2. Walk away.
> 
> Is that clear enough for you?



First of all, If I was rude in my previous post, I apologize, because I really wasn't trying to be. I would also like to apologize for this post, because it will sound rude.

I noticed that you always have a problem with two thing, grammar and people that have a higher level of education. Lets face it, most people on here would agree that I used sufficiently good grammar for an unofficial forum :2c:. Also, why do you have to bring up my educational background? Engineers are known for bad grammar and spelling . Regardless, I've noticed that you have some superiority issues with people that have attended an institution of higher learning. Finally, don't judge, for all you know, i could have learned English a few years back, and Engineering at U of T doesn't necessarily teach you good grammar and spelling. I found that ignorant and just needed to get it off my chest.

Back to topic. For the third time, CFRC did not have a documented answer. In fact, they sent me home with a ROTP form to fill out. So they think that I am allowed to join ROTP, and you think otherwise. Was that clear enough for you? Because it really isn't for me 

P.S. If you really want to play the grammar game with me, then you might want to back back and check this sentence of yours "If you do not meet that criteria, then you are not eligible."  :


----------



## Franko

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> First of all, If I was rude in my previous post, I apologize, because I really wasn't trying to be.
> 
> 
> P.S. If you really want to play the grammar game with me, then you might want to back back and check this sentence of yours "If you do not meet that criteria, then you are not eligible."  :




George Wallace is trying to help out and you literally went from apologizing for possibly coming across as rude to smacking him in the face.

Sort yourself out.
*
The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## Engineer79

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> George Wallace is trying to help out and you literally went from apologizing for possibly coming across as rude to smacking him in the face.
> 
> Sort yourself out.
> *
> The Army.ca Staff*



If Wallace had said "Capitalize your I's" then that would have been a polite suggestion. But, he managed to go through the trouble of combining my educational background and lack of perfect grammar on an unofficial forum to make himself feel superior. Never once did I say anything rude before that comment, so excuse me if I am being a little self-defensive.


----------



## dbouls

If you take the constructive comments of George Wallace personal enough that you feel you must write a novel to retort, you should rethink the career choice you're about to make.

Not the way I would respond to someone that has over 30 years of experience and knowledge about how members (including possible future Ocdts) should conduct themselves.


----------



## aesop081

Where is that "not this shit again" picture when you need it........

Must be "newbie with an attitude week" or something !


----------



## George Wallace

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> First of all, If I was rude in my previous post, I apologize, because I really wasn't trying to be. I would also like to apologize for this post, because it will sound rude.
> 
> I noticed that you always have a problem with two thing, grammar and people that have a higher level of education. Lets face it, most people on here would agree that I used sufficiently good grammar for an unofficial forum :2c:. Also, why do you have to bring up my educational background? Engineers are known for bad grammar and spelling . Regardless, I've noticed that you have some superiority issues with people that have attended an institution of higher learning. Finally, don't judge, for all you know, i could have learned English a few years back, and Engineering at U of T doesn't necessarily teach you good grammar and spelling. I found that ignorant and just needed to get it off my chest.
> 
> Back to topic. For the third time, CFRC did not have a documented answer. In fact, they sent me home with a ROTP form to fill out. So they think that I am allowed to join ROTP, and you think otherwise. Was that clear enough for you? Because it really isn't for me
> 
> P.S. If you really want to play the grammar game with me, then you might want to back back and check this sentence of yours "If you do not meet that criteria, then you are not eligible."  :



While you compiled this, I wandered off to have a shower.  I find it interesting that you go to U of T.  That just happened to be what I was thinking as I shampooed.  Seems U of T does not have as high a standard as that held by U of S (A note I have made of many other students who have posted here from that institution.).  ;D  Good English, Grammar, etc. were drilled into students at other Universities.  They are also deemed qualities that one would look for in young officers.  It is also something that I would assume would be a quality in any "Professional" profession.  

As I said, and the members on this site who are working in CFRCs or the CFRG will tell you; and as you quoted me:  If you do not meet those criteria; then you are not eligible.  

I have noticed some who have replied to responses from site members who happen to be actual Recruiters with snide remarks, not bothering to check the profile of the person posting, only to become the brunt of less than polite comments from yet other site members.

If you are not happy with the CFRC, try the online Chat that the CF Recruiting site offers for short periods of the day.  They may have more up to date info, or just tell you the same as you have heard here.  That still leaves you with two choices:  Pick another Entry Plan; or go somewhere else for employment or perhaps try for a Scholarship.


----------



## Engineer79

Even Wallace would agree that 30 years of experience and knowledge doesn’t equate to perfection. Never once did I say I didn’t respect his comments regarding the Canadian force. And all I did was write back two sentences defending myself, not retaliating! 

Guys/Gals, I know most of you are older than I am, and there are the younger ones, either way please recognize that it is important to distinguish between a suggestion and a rude comment. Regardless of what other people tell you, regardless of your level of education, background, ethnicity or religion – keep an open mind about what other people feel. Being in the Military isn’t always about being strict, it’s about being a good quality officer/ good solider/good NCO. When you are an officer or a senior NCO you will get more than enough share of your opportunities to “yell” at those below your ranks. You will get a chance to be straight forward with them and tell them what they did wrong, or you can be an ass about it and use their personal agenda to give yourself self esteem and superiority complex a boost. The choice is up to you, but let me assure you, the former will have far greater results! How do I know this?? :

Wallace,
Nice try, but its still not right, I’ll give you a couple more chances  
Also, your right U of T Engineering doesn’t advocate grammar and spelling too much. But I think the other departments do a very good job at it – especially the English department  . On the other hand, most good engineering university try not to advocate English too much– it’s just how engineering is setup. English is a language, Numbers is a language – So they teach us Numbers instead  

Finally, thank you for all your comments/suggestions. Was very helpful.


----------



## George Wallace

On the subject of grammar and correct spelling and such, as it has shot off in that direction a bit; it is much easier to SEARCH for info on this site, if members attempt to use correct English in their posts.  MSN Speak, misspelled words, and other misuses of the English Language are not always easily SEARCHED if the Search Engine can not recognize the words, either being used to Search, or in archived posts.

For those truly interested in becoming members of the CF, the written and spoken word are very important.  Lives will literally depend on your having correct communication skills.

It is also the intent of this site to be as "professional" as possible in our content.  What you may interpret as a minor lapse, may become compounded into a major degradation of the site's quality.  We are not MilPhotos.com.   ;D


----------



## mariomike

dbouls said:
			
		

> Not the way I would respond to someone that has over 30 years of experience and knowledge about how members (including possible future Ocdts) should conduct themselves.



Very well said.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Though I am not able to point Engineer79 to a reference that will unequivocally state "thou shalt not enroll dickweed under ROTP if he has only one academic year remaining in his degree programme", I may, however, be able to explain some of the thinking behind the policy (or at least repeat how it was explained to me some years ago).

It has to with obligatory service.  See DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service.  Here are some excerpts from that order.



> Calculation of Obligatory Service
> The duration of a course of study is counted in calendar months to the nearest half-month. Obligatory service will normally be incurred when a course of study is six months or longer, and will be *calculated on the basis of two months' service for each month of education* or training, using the start and end dates of the course of study.
> 
> Education
> The following table identifies the education for which periods of obligatory service are incurred and the duration of those periods.
> 
> Who?    Service Required  Officers enrolled under the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP)  minimum 36 months to 60 months maximum
> 
> Note - Under the ROTP, the member is subject to obligatory service on commencement of the second academic year



If someone is subsidized for only one academic year (say 9 months, as it is only calculated for the months that you actually attend university) they cannot incur the minimum obligatory service (36 months) required for ROTP.

_I will refrain from adding any additional comment about grammar, punctuation, capitalization or the general decline in civilization attributed to younger generations._

_Damn, I had to come back in and correct some grammar.  I hate it when that happens._


----------



## SupersonicMax

My take on it is that even if he's subsidized for 9 months, he'd owe 36.  Same way Prep Year doesn't count towards obligatory service (max 60 months)


----------



## aesop081

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> it’s about being a good quality officer/ good solider/good NCO.



One day, maybe, you will know what that is. Until then, please, refrain from commenting.



> When you are an officer or a senior NCO



I am a Senior NCO.



> let me assure you, the former will have far greater results!, then i will ask you



You may not assure me of anything. My experience has taught me what leadership style to use in what situations so i will go with that. if i have any engineering-type questions i can answer myself ( as an ex combat engineer) , then i will ask you.



> How do I know this?? :



I have 17 years of military experience .......what about you ?

I'm going to stay out of your little drama there but i just hate it when people like you start lecturing on what a good officer/NCO is. You have no freaking idea.


----------



## Engineer79

I did look at the profile of all those who posted here, which is exactly why I stated that many of you are much older then I am (should have had added older/experienced). But never be ignorant to other people's (younger and older) comments. If you disagree with my comments, that is fine, if you agree with my comments, that is also fine, but try not to be ignorant. I am not trying to start a war here but make peace.


Blackadder and Max,

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I would have no problem if 1 year of subsidization would incur a 36 month obligatory service. I was actually looking forward to that idea.


----------



## aesop081

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> But never be ignorant to other people's (younger and older) comments.



Glad you missed the point.

:


----------



## Engineer79

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Glad you missed the point.
> 
> :



 Come on, lets be honest, I didn't ignore anyone's comments - neither yours or Wallace's. You know I took the comments/suggestions gladly but hated the added retaliation.


----------



## Drag

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> Even Wallace would agree that 30 years of experience and knowledge doesn’t equate to perfection. Never once did I say I didn’t respect his comments regarding the Canadian force. And all I did was write back two sentences defending myself, not retaliating!
> 
> Guys/Gals, I know most of you are older than I am, and there are the younger ones, either way please recognize that it is important to distinguish between a suggestion and a rude comment. Regardless of what other people tell you, regardless of your level of education, background, ethnicity or religion – keep an open mind about what other people feel. Being in the Military isn’t always about being strict, it’s about being a good quality officer/ good solider/good NCO. When you are an officer or a senior NCO you will get more than enough share of your opportunities to “yell” at those below your ranks. You will get a chance to be straight forward with them and tell them what they did wrong, or you can be an *** about it and use their personal agenda to give yourself self esteem and superiority complex a boost. The choice is up to you, but let me assure you, the former will have far greater results! How do I know this?? :
> 
> Wallace,
> Nice try, but its still not right, I’ll give you a couple more chances
> Also, your right U of T Engineering doesn’t advocate grammar and spelling too much. But I think the other departments do a very good job at it – especially the English department  . On the other hand, most good engineering university try not to advocate English too much– it’s just how engineering is setup. English is a language, Numbers is a language – So they teach us Numbers instead
> 
> Finally, thank you for all your comments/suggestions. Was very helpful.



That is a terrible attitude for an aspiring officer.  What exactly do you know about how Sr NCOs and Officers in the CF act?  A deficiency was pointed out, and instead of correcting it you responded with attitude. 
I am also a recent engineering grad who has not taken an English course since high school.  As an officer in the Canadian Forces, proper communications skills are crucial.  If your supervisor has to return a PER you wrote a dozen times for corrections it will be reflected negatively on your PER.


----------



## aesop081

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> but hated the added retaliation.



It was not "retaliation", it had nothing to do with the little argument you have going with other members.

It was about you talking abut things of which you have no knowledge of. it was about you telling members here ( quite a few of them being or having been officers & senior NCOs) what a good officer/ Snr. NCO should do.

You can comment when yo have some time in, until then STFU.


----------



## Engineer79

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It was not "retaliation", it had nothing to do with the little argument you have going with other members.
> 
> It was about you talking abut things of which you have no knowledge of. it was about you telling members here ( quite a few of them being or having been officers & senior NCOs) what a good officer/ Snr. NCO should do.
> 
> You can comment when yo have some time in, until then STFU.



It was a comment, all you have to do is take it or leave it. Comment: "A statement (of fact or opinion), *especially a remark that expresses a personal reaction *or attitude." I wasn't trying to portray that i knew more then you, but rather, just stating my personal opinion. I hope this settles things between us.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Engineer79,

Advice.  Take it or leave it.

1.  Shut up.
2.  Stop talking about things you have no idea about (read *anything to do with the CF*).
3.  If you are about to say something stupid (kind of becoming a pattern here...), refer to #1.

I think my post is still is within the rules on this forum, so I'll stop there.


----------



## Otis

Funny enough ... I work at CFRC Toronto, where this gentleman claims he got five different answers from different recruiters, and I know for a FACT that no one here would have questioned whether or not he could be subsidized less than 2 years (assuming of course that as a UofT student he went in to the Toronto office and not Mississauga or somewhere else).

ALSO funny enough ... working at CFRC Toronto, I HAVE the definitive answer AND reference for said gentleman.

*Tab B to Annex 4 of Annex A of the ROTP Op Order states that Category Field "ROTP/Ug" is for Applicants continuing study at a Civilian University that will require less than four years of subsidy. It also states that NO LESS THAN 1.5 YEARS OF SUBSIDY WILL BE GRANTED UNLESS APPLICANT IS A BOTP BYPASS.*

There, that should solve THAT argument. I'll respectfully stay out of the remainder of the discussions.

Otis


----------



## Engineer79

Thank you very much Otis, you were of great help, as was everyone else. One last question if you don't mind, if i wanted the second term (Jan 2010- April 2010) of my upcoming year to be subsidized, when would you say the deadline to submit my application be?


----------



## Otis

Engineer79 said:
			
		

> Thank you very much Otis, you were of great help, as was everyone else. And No, i went to the Barrie CFRC. One last question if you don't mind, if i wanted the second term of my upcoming year to be subsidized, when would you say the deadline to submit my application be?



You will not get your second term subsidized.

Selection for the ROTP program happens between Oct and Feb every year. The next set of selections will start Oct 09 for the school year commencing September 2010.


----------



## Engineer79

Otis said:
			
		

> You will not get your second term subsidized.
> 
> Selection for the ROTP program happens between Oct and Feb every year. The next set of selections will start Oct 09 for the school year commencing September 2010.



Fair enough, I think i will go with reserves in the meantime to finish my training. Thanks again everyone!


----------



## Blackadder1916

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> My take on it is that even if he's subsidized for 9 months, he'd owe 36.  Same way Prep Year doesn't count towards obligatory service (max 60 months)



My interpretation was obviously different than yours, however in light of Otis's definitive answer with ref it is moot.  But in viewing some of the advertising material about ROTP, I noted that there seemed to be a standard message of "two months obligatory service for each month of academic subsidization to a maximum of 60 months obligatory service".  There was no mention of any "minimum" amount of obligatory service.  

And there was this post from MKO (who used to post here as ComdCFRG until he no longer filled that position) in another thread that deals with this subject. 



			
				MKO said:
			
		

> Dkim and SUPERficialHERO: it is never too late to either go on the website  and chat with a recruiter online or GO INTO a centre.  Make sure that you explain your circumstances fully and what you are interested in doing in the CF and then let them explain what occupations and entry programmes are available that might make that a reality.  If they don't mention ROTP, MOTP etc, bring it up as a specific question to find out why they didn't mention them, why it might not apply to you and then what you might be able to do to become eligible.
> 
> *There ARE limits to how late in an undergraduate degree we accept into ROTP because of the obligatory service aspects* however the process for students who have already completed more than one year in a degree programme is slightly different for those coming out of high school or in their first year.
> 
> PuffinFresh hit it on the nose: you still have until this Thurs to start the processing - nothing ventured, nothing gained.
> 
> MKO



Therefore, I'll continue to believe that my interpretation was closer to the mark.

MKO's response to that query (similar to many of the other posts he made when the info was not favourable to the potential recruit) also included the suggestion to go to the recruiting centre and see what else they could for him.  In that way he is a good representation of a recruiter as a "salesman" of careers in the CF.  Just like a car salesman - the shiny new red Corvette may attract a customer into the showroom but you don't let him leave because he can't afford it or was simply looking.  You try to find something else that he qualifies for.


----------



## Otis

I'm sure you didn't mean it in this way Blackadder, but comparing us to Car Salesman is a negative connotation that I'd like to avoid.

I don't know about anywhere else (or anyWHEN else, I've heard stories of people being mis-lead) but here we don't try to 'sell' any trade or job or entry plan. We ensure that people are informed of options and let them make a decision about what they want to do. i.e.:I will not tell someone to be an Aerospace Controller rather than a Pilot, but I will let them know that we're hiring AEC's right now and we're not hiring Pilots ...

Most dis-satisfied people have heard what they WANT to hear rather than what was actually said ... so we're usually very careful about how we say things in order to avoid confusion.

OK, I'm done - rant over!


----------



## mathabos

Otis said:
			
		

> *Tab B to Annex 4 of Annex A of the ROTP Op Order states that Category Field "ROTP/Ug" is for Applicants continuing study at a Civilian University that will require less than four years of subsidy. It also states that NO LESS THAN 1.5 YEARS OF SUBSIDY WILL BE GRANTED UNLESS APPLICANT IS A BOTP BYPASS.*



I just came upon this thread and was wondering where I could get this document in its entirety. Reason being is I have applied for ROTP at a civi university and I am waiting for board selection in early December. In January I will have only a year and a half left to complete my degree. So if I am selected in December I am fine. However, if I am not selected would I have to wait to complete my degree and go DEO ?


----------



## Otis

You cannot have this document as it is an internal document of CFRC.

In fact, I don't even have this document. The UPSO did and showed it to me so that I could originally answer this question with reference.

Otis


----------

