# Religious/Extremist Terrorism:  Non-Muslim edition



## The Bread Guy

This from the _Washington Post_:


> The “Crusaders” knew they wanted to kill Muslims — and with luck, use the “bloodbath” to ignite a religious war — but for months they couldn’t settle on a plan.
> 
> The easiest way would be to grab guns, go to the predominantly Somali-Muslim apartment complex they’d been surveilling and start kicking in doors, court documents said. They would spare no one, not even babies.
> 
> In the end, they decided to set off bombs similar to the one Timothy McVeigh used in 1995 to kill 168 people in Oklahoma City. They planned to strike after the Nov. 8 election, investigators said ...


More from the U.S. Dep't of Justice:


> Curtis Allen and Gavin Wright, both 49, and of Liberal, Kansas, and Patrick Eugene Stein, 47, of Wright, Kansas, appeared in federal court to face a charge of conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction (explosives), in connection with their plot to detonate bombs at an apartment complex in Garden City, Kansas where Somali immigrants live and worship.
> 
> The announcement was made by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John P. Carlin and Acting U.S. Attorney Tom Beall of the District of Kansas.
> 
> “According to the complaint, these three defendants conspired to conduct a bombing attack against an apartment complex occupied by men, women and children in the Garden City, Kansas community,” said Assistant Attorney General Carlin. “Protecting our nation from such attacks, whether they are rooted in domestic or international terrorism, is our highest priority.”
> 
> “These charges are based on eight months of investigation by the FBI that is alleged to have taken the investigators deep into a hidden culture of hatred and violence,” said Acting U.S. Attorney Beall. “Many Kansans may find it as startling as I do that such things could happen here.”
> 
> The complaint alleges that since February the FBI has been investigating the defendants’ activities, including their plans to carry out a violent attack against Muslims in southwestern Kansas.  The defendants were key members of a militia group that referred to itself as the Crusaders.  A confidential source attended meetings of the group and provided the FBI with information about the defendants’ activities.
> 
> The criminal complaint alleges that the men conducted surveillance to identify potential targets, stockpiled firearms, ammunition and explosive components, and planned to issue a manifesto in conjunction with the planned bombing. The attack, the defendants said, would be intended to “wake people up.”
> 
> After considering possible targets, the defendants decided to conduct the attack on a Garden City, Kansas apartment complex that houses a mosque and a large number of members of the Somali community. They discussed obtaining four vehicles, filling them with explosives and parking them at the four corners of the apartment complex to create a large explosion.
> 
> On Oct.12, Stein met with an undercover FBI employee in rural Finney County, Kansas.  After examining and test firing automatic weapons, Stein took the source to see the apartment building that the defendants were targeting in Garden City, Kansas. Stein said he would provide ammonium nitrate for the bomb and contribute $200 to $300 for other materials.
> 
> Stein also talked with the undercover employee about defendant Allen’s arrest in a domestic violence case in Liberal, Kansas the previous day, Oct. 11. Stein said he was concerned that Allen’s girlfriend would give the Liberal Police Department in Kansas information about the defendants’ plans.
> 
> If convicted, the defendants face a maximum sentence of life in federal prison.
> 
> A criminal complaint is merely an allegation, and the defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. The maximum statutory sentence is prescribed by Congress and is provided here for informational purposes. If convicted of any offense, the sentencing of the defendant will be determined by the court based on the advisory Sentencing Guidelines and other statutory factors.
> 
> Investigating agencies included the FBI, the Liberal Police Department, the Seward County Sheriff’s Office, the Ford County Sheriff’s Office, the Garden City Police Department, the Dodge City Police Department, the Finney County Sheriff’s Office, and Kansas Highway Patrol, and the Kansas Bureau of Investigation. Assistant U.S. Attorney Tony Mattivi for the District of Kansas and Counterterrorism Section Trial Attorney David Cora are prosecuting this case.



_*- OP edit to broaden the title category a bit -*_


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## jollyjacktar

Good to read they were stopped in time.


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## daftandbarmy

It's also been done before within the same religion, of course, usually in a spectacular fashion: 

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius


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## The Bread Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius


Ah, the original "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out" - thanks for sharing that.


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## Colin Parkinson

We can't allow a non-Muslim terrorist gap to form.......


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## Brad Sallows

So we have one discussion for Muslim religious terrorism, and one for all other known religions.  Anyone want to take bets which one will have the shorter list of outrages?


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## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> So we have one discussion for Muslim religious terrorism, and one for all other known religions.  Anyone want to take bets which one will have the shorter list of outrages?



To be fair to the Muslims, they only got started in earnest about a couple of hundred years ago, so have quite a bit of ground to make up, especially to catch up with characters like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles


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## Colin Parkinson

Well the nastiest non-Islamic group would be the Lords Resistance Army, their leader claimed a religious connection, but I think he is/was just outright bonkers and don’t recall them every really claiming any religious motivation.


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## AbdullahD

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well the nastiest non-Islamic group would be the Lords Resistance Army, their leader claimed a religious connection, but I think he is/was just outright bonkers and don’t recall them every really claiming any religious motivation.



Well considering Christian extremists still consider witch burning a thing... I am not so sure. Africa has quite a bit of 'Christian Extremists' but they are called 'militia's'

Burn witches
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/centralafricanrepublic/12018588/Christian-militias-in-Central-African-Republic-burnt-witches-at-stake-says-UN-report.html

Convert or die
http://www.mintpressnews.com/christian-militias-in-the-car-give-muslims-a-choice-convert-or-die/208491/

Etc etc I don't have the time to show how idiots around the world murder innocents. Just because some people do something claiming xyz religion, it doesnt mean squat.


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## cupper

It seems that the FBI didn't do the takedown in the typical manner as they have with Islamic radicals in the US. In the majority of those cases they have used undercover operatives to act as fellow supporters and provided access to "explosives" and materials to make a bomb, then carefully lead them down the path. In many of those cases, the defendants would not have had the means or ability to get the plot any further without the help of the FBI. One or two cases have been thrown out because of that.

But with this one, the people were fully capable, and had progressed to the point of getting ready to move on their plans. That makes this a very worrisome case indeed.


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## Colin Parkinson

from the Guardian 2013 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/22/central-african-republic-verge-of-genocide

_What started as a political movement against the corrupt and autocratic Bozizé is now taking on an ominously religious character. Nearly all the Seleka are Muslim, including mercenaries from neighbouring Chad and the notorious Janjaweed from Sudan's Darfur region. An "us and them" mentality of mutual distrust and paranoia is taking root, with some Christians taking up arms in vigilante militias known as "anti-balaka" — meaning anti-sword or anti-machete — and committing atrocities of their own, giving the Seleka a pretext for yet more aggression. The spiral of violence has become a recruiting sergeant for thousands of child soldiers._


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## cupper

Colin P said:
			
		

> ... *with some Christians taking up arms in vigilante militias known as "anti-balaka" — meaning anti-sword or anti-machete* — and committing atrocities of their own, giving the Seleka a pretext for yet more aggression.



I wonder if they see the irony in this.


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## The Bread Guy

U.S. DOJ news release archives are making for interesting reading - this tidbit, from earlier this week:


> Missouri Man Who Set Fire to Mosque and Who Attempted Arson at Planned Parenthood Sentenced to 63 Months in Prison
> 
> Jedediah Stout, 32, of Joplin, Missouri, was sentenced today in the Western District of Missouri to 63 months in prison for setting fire to the Islamic Society of Joplin mosque as well as for two attempted arsons of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Joplin, announced Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General Vanita Gupta, head of the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division, and U.S. Attorney Tammy Dickinson of the Western District of Missouri.
> 
> Stout pleaded guilty on April 18, 2016, to a four-count information that charged him with one count of damage to the Islamic Society of Joplin mosque, two counts of arson at a Planned Parenthood facility in Joplin and one count of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.  Stout was also ordered to pay $701,971 in restitution.
> 
> Stout, who told investigators that he did not like Islam as a religion, admitted in his guilty plea to setting a fire that destroyed the mosque on Aug. 6, 2012.  The mosque served families from neighboring states, many of whom provided funding for the operation of the mosque.  As a direct result of the fire, many donations made during the Muslim holy period of Ramadan were destroyed.
> 
> In his guilty plea, Stout also admitted to two arson attempts on Oct. 3 and Oct. 4, 2013, against the Planned Parenthood of Joplin.  In both attempts, Stout threw items containing an accelerant onto the roof of the Planned Parenthood facility and then ignited material attached to the accelerant.  Surveillance video captured his consecutive attempts to set the fires and Stout was apprehended soon after those attempts.  Stout admitted to investigators that he was responsible for both Planned Parenthood arson attempts and for the mosque arson, and that he had committed the mosque arson using the same kind of incendiary device as in the Planned Parenthood arson attempts.  Stout further admitted that he targeted Planned Parenthood because they provide reproductive health care services ...


So, playing the Devil's Advocate, if we treat this the same way as other extremist violence with links/hints of religious involvement, one has to wonder what his influences were - especially since hometown media say he identifies as "conservative Christian".  Did he own any religious literature?  Who was he hanging around with?  Did his church do anything about this if they knew?  Have anti-Muslim or anti-abortion groups spoken out against such violence?  Or is this just a case of someone mentally ill?


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## Colin Parkinson

The big difference is that you don’t have Vatican telling to kill and suppress the Muslims, nor does the Vatican or other religious authorities issue death threats for drawing cartoons of Christ.


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## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> The big difference is that you don’t have Vatican telling to kill and suppress the Muslims, nor does the Vatican or other religious authorities issue death threats for drawing cartoons of Christ.


You're right, but I haven't read anything saying he's _Roman Catholic_ (which has a lot more centralized and agreed-to locus of control than other religions), so at that level, the Pope has nothing to uncondone here.  But there _have_ been examples of clergy advocating extreme measures in the case of people doing abortions.  

That said, and I stand to be educated, but I'm guessing the Christian religions in the U.S. have a spectrum of "how much head office/head dude-dudette dictates what happens in the pews."


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## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, overseas ...


> A British neo-Nazi movement is to become the first far-right group to be banned under terrorism laws in the UK.
> 
> Home Secretary Amber Rudd said National Action was "a racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic organisation".
> 
> An order laid in Parliament to proscribe the group - making it a criminal offence to join or support it - is due to come into effect on Friday.
> 
> It will be the first time a group engaged in extreme right-wing activities has been proscribed.
> 
> Under the Terrorism Act 2000, the home secretary can proscribe an organisation if it is believed to be "concerned in terrorism".
> 
> The growing problem of far-right radicalisation
> 
> National Action describes itself as a "National Socialist youth organisation" and says its movement is aimed at the "broken right-wing".
> 
> Ms Rudd said the group had "no place" in Britain.
> 
> She said: "National Action is a racist, anti-Semitic and homophobic organisation which stirs up hatred, glorifies violence and promotes a vile ideology, and I will not stand for it."
> 
> Proscription makes it a criminal offence to belong to the organisation, arrange meetings in support of the group or wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion.
> 
> Penalties for proscription offences can be a maximum of 10 years in prison and an unlimited fine.
> 
> There are currently 70 international organisations that are proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000 - the majority of which are Islamist groups. A further 14 organisations in Northern Ireland were proscribed under previous legislation ...


More on the group here (usual Wikipedia caveats apply).


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## The Bread Guy

Guilty  (highlights mine) ...


> The *federal jury**1* of 10 women and two men who found Dylann Roof guilty of federal hate crimes Thursday in the killings of nine African-Americans at a historic Charleston church now must wait more than two weeks for the trial’s next phase.
> 
> Jurors on Jan. 3 will begin to hear evidence about whether to give the death penalty or life without parole to the 22-year-old self-avowed white supremacist from Columbia.
> 
> Jurors took two hours Thursday to find him guilty. Evidence in the case had been overwhelming, including a video confession.
> 
> Federal Judge Richard Gergel told jurors that during the holiday recess, they may not look at any news accounts of one of the most sensational South Carolina trials in decades. Nor can they discuss the case with anyone — including other jurors.
> 
> The killings shook South Carolina and the nation because they happened in a church, because Roof’s white supremacist motivations were so blatant and because survivors were so quick to express forgiveness.
> 
> “These nine people exemplified a goodness that was greater than this message of hate,” prosecutor Nathan Williams told jurors earlier in closing arguments, urging them to find Roof guilty.
> 
> After the verdict, Gergel put Roof under oath and asked him one more time if he wants to represent himself in the death penalty phase. Roof said “yes.” His legal team of top defense lawyers will be classified as “stand-by” and be able only to offer him advice.
> 
> Gergel warned Roof, a ninth-grade dropout with a GED, that he should not try to handle such a task. But Roof was firm. Gergel told him he had until Jan. 3 to change his mind ...


*1* -- These are the _federal_ charges he's been found guilty of - there could be more:


> ... The jury will return Jan. 3 to decide whether to impose death, or sentence Roof to life imprisonment.
> 
> After that, Roof is scheduled to be tried on murder charges in state court, where he also faces the prospect of a death sentence ...


More on this guy here (usual Wikipedia GIGO caveats apply).


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## jollyjacktar

Death is what he deserves.


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## tomahawk6

He still must face State charges which carry the death penalty.


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## mariomike

"The federal jury..."



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Death is what he deserves.



Could take a while,

On federal cases, "As of 2015 only three federal death row prisoners had been executed since 1988."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/federal-sentences-death-row/



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He still must face State charges which carry the death penalty.



Checked out South Carolina's averages. They certainly kept "Old Sparky's" seat filled in the first half of the 20th Century.  
http://www.doc.sc.gov/pubweb/news/deathrow.jsp#execution


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## The Bread Guy

_*"White supremacist gets 30 years prison for his plot to kill Muslims and Obama"*_


> A self-proclaimed white supremacist convicted on charges he planned to use a “death ray” to kill Muslims and Barack Obama was sentenced on Monday to 30 years in prison, federal prosecutors in New York said.
> 
> Glendon Scott Crawford, 52, a Navy veteran and a member of the Ku Klux Klan, was found guilty in August 2015 of conspiring with another man to build a radiation dispersal device, dubbed a “death ray” by tabloids.
> 
> Crawford is the first person to be convicted under a law barring attempts to acquire or use a radiological dispersal device, which combines conventional explosives, such as dynamite, with radioactive material. Congress passed the statute in 2004 to punish individuals who try to set off a so-called “dirty bomb.”
> 
> US district judge Gary Sharpe imposed the sentence at a hearing in Albany, prosecutors said in a statement. He was convicted on three counts, including conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction.
> 
> Crawford, who is from upstate New York, plans to appeal the conviction as well as his sentence, his attorney Danielle Neroni said in a statement. His lawyers argued unsuccessfully at trial that he was entrapped by the government.
> 
> Crawford’s co-conspirator, Eric Feight, pleaded guilty in connection with the case and was sentenced to eight years and one month in prison.***
> 
> US prosecutors had sought life in prison for Crawford. He faced a mandatory minimum of 25 years. After his release, he will be supervised for life.
> 
> “His plot to murder people he did not know was designed to, in his oft-repeated words, ‘take his country back’ from government leaders by forcing them to change government conduct he perceived as favoring Muslims,” prosecutors wrote in a pre-sentencing court filing ...


More via Google News here.

*** - Last year's FBI/DOJ statement on Crawford's sidekick:


> Eric J. Feight, 55, of Hudson, New York, was sentenced today to serve 97 months in prison for providing material support to terrorists.
> 
> The sentence was announced by Assistant Attorney General for National Security John P. Carlin, U.S. Attorney Richard S. Hartunian of the Northern District of New York, and Special Agent in Charge Andrew W. Vale of the FBI’s Albany, New York, Division.
> 
> Feight pleaded guilty on January 22, 2014, and admitted to helping Glendon Scott Crawford modify an industrial-grade radiation device intended to be used to kill Muslims in the Albany area. Feight also admitted he assisted Crawford by designing and building a remote initiation unit to allow the radiation device to be activated from a distance. Both men were arrested following an extensive federal investigation. Crawford, a self-proclaimed Ku Klux Klan (KKK) member, sought financial support for his plot from the KKK, and he and Feight later met with individuals they believed to be KKK financiers to advance their scheme to kill innocent Americans. Those individuals were actually FBI agents posing as businessmen connected to the KKK who were willing to support the scheme.
> 
> “Eric Feight aided Glendon Scott Crawford in altering a dispersal device to target unsuspecting Muslim Americans with lethal doses of radiation,” said Assistant Attorney General Carlin. “Feight and Crawford’s abominable plot to harm innocent Americans was thwarted thanks to the tireless efforts of law enforcement. The National Security Division’s highest priority continues to be combatting terrorism, and we remain ready to identify, disrupt and prevent terrorist threats, both domestically and internationally.”
> 
> “The sentence today highlights both the dangers we face when hatred and bigotry beget domestic terrorism and violent extremism, and our commitment to holding those who commit such crimes accountable,” said U.S. Attorney Hartunian. “No American—of any background—should have to live in fear of this kind of attack. This case illustrates the importance of vigilance by community members and an immediate, comprehensive investigation by our Albany FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force, which thwarted the diabolical plan Feight supported. We must continue to counter messages of hate by empowering communities and emphasizing the inclusion on which our nation was founded—with local, state and federal law enforcement ready to stop any who refuse to heed that call.”
> 
> “Today’s sentencing is the result of the incredible efforts of our Joint Terrorism Task Force and the U.S. Attorney’s Office,” said Special Agent in Charge Vale. “While we enjoy today’s success, it is important that we continue to gain the strongest possible understanding to allow us to better assess the terrorism threat and identify those who would go beyond hateful rhetoric and extremist views to commit violent, criminal acts.”
> 
> This case was investigated by the Albany FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. The case is being prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorneys Stephen C. Green and Richard Belliss of the Northern District of New York, and Trial Attorney Joseph Kaster of the National Security Division’s Counterterrorism Section.



_- mod edit to fix links -_


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## The Bread Guy

The latest on the Charleston church shooter from June 2015 ....

_*"Dylann Roof Tells (Federal) Jury: 'I Still Feel Like I Had to Do It' "*_
_*"Facing death, South Carolina church gunman stands by killings"*_
_*"In final argument, Roof does not ask jury to spare life"*_
P.S. -- Roof is also facing a state trial for the killings, which appears to be on hold while the federal proceedings unfold.


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## The Bread Guy

And the jury decides ....
_*"Dylann Roof sentenced to death for church slayings"*_


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## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And the jury decides ....
> _*"Dylann Roof sentenced to death for church slayings"*_



That's nice, but "In 2010, a death row inmate waited an average of 178 months (roughly 15 years) between sentencing and execution."
https://www.google.ca/search?q=average+time+on+deth+row&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=b311WODrD4eN8Qe2gb7oDA&gws_rd=ssl#q=average+time+on+death+row

Assuming they don't commute it to life, like they did with Manson and Winston Moseley etc...

Not like the old days. Zangara spent 10 days on death row!


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## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And the jury decides ....
> _*"Dylann Roof sentenced to death for church slayings"*_



What he deserves, hopefully he'll get it applied.  And if the drugs are defective like in other executions...meh.


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## The Bread Guy

DHS & FBI compare & contrast American & European anarchist extremists ...


> ...  DHS and FBI assess the primary factor explaining the difference in targets between foreign and US anarchist extremists is foreign anarchist extremists’ focus on specific economic and governance issues relative to their geographic area, while US anarchist extremists tend to focus on symbols of capitalism. We assess the likely primary factor explaining foreign anarchist extremists’ greater willingness to use more violent tactics than their US counterparts is that these foreign anarchist extremist movements are often more organized—allowing for more complex attacks—and have a well-established tradition of lethal violence not currently seen in the United States.
> 
> The vast majority of US anarchist extremist attacks targeted property likely due to the location’s accessibility and as a symbol of capitalism and globalization. Most foreign anarchist extremist attacks targeted persons likely because of the cohesiveness of the movement and greater emphasis on issues that can be blamed on local, individual targets. US anarchist extremists targeted the banking/finance sector most often, as these perceived soft targets of capitalism are possible to attack with tactics that are non-lethal yet cause significant economic damage and pose significant public safety risks. Foreign anarchist extremists most often targeted government entities, likely due to the emphasis placed on local domestic issues by foreign anarchist extremists and their capabilities to commit attacks against hardened targets.
> 
> Arson was the most common violent tactic used by US anarchist extremists—approximately 70 percent (19 of 27) of attacks—while foreign anarchist extremists used arson in only a third of their attacks. US anarchist extremists likely use this tactic based on their intention to cause economic and property damage, which can be accomplished by arson with relatively limited resources and specialized skills. Unlike US anarchist extremists, foreign anarchist extremists frequently used explosives, likely due to their capability to develop more advanced explosive devices as a result of their more organized structure, having a history of using such tactics, and because their targets are hardened.
> 
> …
> 
> Social Justice
> 
> Social justice issues––specifically opposition to gentrification and opposition to perceived racism and fascism––were the second most common driver of violence for US anarchist extremists, as they accounted for 26 percent (7 of 27) of attacks. Social justice issues accounted for 12 percent of violent foreign anarchist extremist attacks, although these incidents occurred only in Greece and were all against perceived fascism. Although social justice issues can motivate anarchist extremists to violence, they are often a driver for violence if a social justice issue occurs within a location that also has an anarchist extremist presence.
> 
> Social justice issues often result in legal protest activities, and historically, in both the United States and abroad, anarchist extremists have been known to co-opt legal protests as a cover to commit violence against their targets. However, a review of data in this study indicated in the seven social-justice motivated violent incidents committed by US anarchist extremists, only one of those incidents exploited otherwise legal protest activity. The reasons for this finding are currently a reporting gap ...


_- mod edit to fix link -_


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## Jarnhamar

Toronto police arrest a home grown terrorist. 
Good thing too,  that sign would have caused a lot of death and destruction. 

https://m.liveleak.com/view?i=108_1486253318


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## George Wallace

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Toronto police arrest a home grown terrorist.
> Good thing too,  that sign would have caused a lot of death and destruction.
> 
> https://m.liveleak.com/view?i=108_1486253318



Let's see.....The guy was a known activist.  He was told not to go down the street that the protest was on.  He was told not to show his sign to incite the protest.  He intentionally went to a location where he pulled out his sign and with the intent to incite the protesters.  He was arrested peacefully and taken away.  The whole matter had nothing to do with the protest, nor Sharia, but of one idiot who was out to make a scene and got arrested.  Actually a case of sensationalizing a non-event, to incite people.  The police handled him in a respectful manner, even in the arrest, and no violence happened.


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## Jarnhamar

I still find it weird the police can order someone not to walk down a street or hold up a sign which "intices people".  The sign seems hardly vitorlic.    So much for being held accountable for your own actions. 

I'm sure I'm just being grumpy and melodramatic though.


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## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I still find it weird the police can order someone not to walk down a street or hold up a sign which "intices people".  The sign seems hardly vitorlic.    So much for being held accountable for your own actions.


There have also been cases where people carrying Canadian flags have been told, "don't go there - you'll only make things worse."


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let's see.....The guy was a known activist.  He was told not to go down the street that the protest was on.  He was told not to show his sign to incite the protest.  He intentionally went to a location where he pulled out his sign and with the intent to incite the protesters.  He was arrested peacefully and taken away.  The whole matter had nothing to do with the protest, nor Sharia, but of one idiot who was out to make a scene and got arrested.


 :nod:


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## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> There have also been cases where people carrying Canadian flags have been told, "don't go there - you'll only make things worse."


Editing to head back on topic but want to say if Canadians are being told not to carry a Canadian flag for safety reasons (in Canada) then there is a big problem.


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## Colin Parkinson

My wife and I were just discussing how sh*thead in Quebec just handed the Islamists a free pass for the next while and tossed legal gun owners under the bus as well. I wish these guys when they get a bright idea of killing someone, they would practice on themselves first.


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## The Bread Guy

From earlier this week:


> A 29-year-old white supremacist from South Carolina allegedly plotting an attack inspired by Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof was arrested by federal agents in an FBI sting this week.
> 
> His plan ran into some other logistical problems along the way: his mother wouldn’t let him use her cellphone, and he had to borrow money from his grandfather to buy a weapon from the undercover FBI agent he thought was a member of the Aryan Nations.
> 
> The FBI on Wednesday arrested Benjamin Thomas Samuel McDowell of Conway, South Carolina, in the parking lot of a Hampton Inn in Myrtle Beach after he purchased a disabled Glock and hollow point ammunition from an undercover federal agent for $109 ...


More from the U.S. DOJ:


> *Conway Man Arrested by the FBI on Federal Gun Charge*
> 
> Columbia, South Carolina ---- United States Attorney Beth Drake stated today that Benjamin Thomas Samuel McDowell, age 29, of Conway, South Carolina, appeared before a federal magistrate judge this morning in Florence, South Carolina, for an initial appearance following his arrest last night in Myrtle Beach by the FBI. McDowell was arrested for a violation of possession of a firearm and ammunition by a prohibited person, a violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 922(g)(1).
> 
> A preliminary hearing and a detention hearing for McDowell have been calendared for Tuesday, February 21, 2017 at 2:30pm at the McMillan Federal Building in Florence, South Carolina. McDowell remains in custody. The case is being investigated by the FBI, the Horry County Police Department, and the Myrtle Beach Police Department.
> 
> U.S. Attorney Drake stated that all charges are merely accusations and all defendants are presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty.
> 
> #####​


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## Jarnhamar

I'll be honest, this thread sorta feels like a tit for tat kind of argument. So with that in mind,  do you think it's at all telling that examples of _Religious/Extremist Terrorism:  Non-Muslim edition_ pop up in ones and twos yet in the last 4 days we see numbers like this from Islamic attacks?



> 2 hours ago - Officials in Pakistan say they have killed at least 39 suspected militants in a sweeping security crackdown a day after a massive bombing *claimed by Islamic State killed 88 people and injured hundreds more at a crowded shrine*





> 20 hours ago - *At least 48 people have been killed *in a car bombing in Baghdad that has been claimed by Isis



and just in general



> (CNN)Since declaring its caliphate in June 2014, the self-proclaimed Islamic State has conducted or inspired *more than 140 terrorist attacks in 29 countries other than Iraq and Syria,* where its carnage has taken a much deadlier toll. Those attacks have *killed at least 2,043 people and injured thousands more*.



Apologize if I'm off the mark with this.


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## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'll be honest, this thread sorta feels like a tit for tat kind of argument.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Apologize if I'm off the mark with this.


I think we have the jihadi terror discussion pretty well covered (at least 50 pages here, with more on specific incidents here, here and here, to show just a few).  

Just showin' 1)  it's not just one group/creed/affiliation/whatever being nasty, and 2)  trying to let people see how other bad guys do things (remember the Taliban propaganda threads?).


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... do you think it's at all telling that examples of _Religious/Extremist Terrorism:  Non-Muslim edition_ pop up in ones and twos ...


Zackly what this kind of thread shows (2 pages vs. how many pages elsewhere on the forums) - not much, but it's not zero, either.


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## Jarnhamar

Fair enough!  It's important not to concentrate on one and ignore the other for sure.  I think I'll give my lamenting a rest for a while


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## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Fair enough!  It's important not to concentrate on one and ignore the other for sure.  I think I'll give my lamenting a rest for a while


That's a pretty soft lament, bud  ;D

Thanks for asking - it's good for me to consider my motivations from time to time, esp. with the kind of passion-fanning stuff we & others sometimes discuss around these parts.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Regardless of which flavour terrorist/asshole ideology they spring from, I'm glad that they're catching those they can before they act upon their plans.  My gratitude goes out to all those labouring behind the scenes at the various intelligence/security/law enforcement agencies to this end.  I can well imagine the unpaid debt of gratitude I rack up on a daily basis.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

One can argue that M-103 will just create more of these Non-Muslim radical terrorists.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> One can argue that M-103 will just create more of these Non-Muslim radical terrorists.


I really wish I could discount this completely, but ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin P said:
			
		

> One can argue that M-103 will just create more of these Non-Muslim radical terrorists.



Agreed very much so.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the New York County District Attorney's office ...


> *DA VANCE: JAMES JACKSON INDICTED ON CHARGES OF MURDER IN THE FIRST AND SECOND DEGREES, AMONG OTHER CHARGES*
> 
> _Defendant Charged With Murder in the First and Second Degrees As an Act of Terrorism, Murder in the Second Degree As a Hate Crime, Among Other Charges, For Fatally Stabbing Timothy Caughman_
> 
> Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., today announced the indictment of JAMES JACKSON, 28, for fatally stabbing 66-year-old Timothy Caughman on March 20, 2017. JACKSON is charged in New York State Supreme Court with Murder in the First and Second Degrees as an Act of Terrorism, Murder in the Second Degree as a Hate Crime, as well as three counts of Criminal Possession of a Weapon.[1]
> 
> “James Jackson prowled the streets of New York for three days in search of a black person to assassinate in order to launch a campaign of terrorism against our Manhattan community and the values we celebrate,” said District Attorney Vance. “Last week, with total presence of mind, he acted on his plan, randomly selecting a beloved New Yorker solely on the basis of his skin color, and stabbing him repeatedly and publicly on a Midtown street corner. James Jackson wanted to kill black men, planned to kill black men, and then did kill a black man. He chose Midtown as his crime scene because Manhattan is the media capital of the world, and a place where people of different races live together and love one another. We must never take for granted New York’s remarkable diversity. We must celebrate it, protect it, and refuse to let violence and hate undermine the progress we have made as a city, a state, and a nation.”
> 
> Assistant District Attorney Joan Illuzzi, Special Counsel to the District Attorney, is handling the prosecution of this case, with the assistance of Assistant District Attorneys Nicholas Penfold and Juan Abreu of Trial Bureau 80, under the supervision of Executive Assistant District Attorney John Irwin, Chief of the Trial Division.
> 
> [1] The charges contained in the indictment are merely allegations, and the defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty. All factual recitations are derived from documents filed in court and statements made on the record in court.
> 
> Defendant Information:
> 
> JAMES JACKSON, D.O.B. 5/26/1988
> Baltimore, MD
> 
> Charges:
> 
> Murder in the First Degree (in furtherance of an act of terrorism), a class A-I felony, one count
> Murder in the Second Degree as a Crime of Terrorism, a class A-I felony, one count
> Murder in the Second Degree as a Hate Crime, a class A-I felony, one count
> Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Fourth Degree, a class A misdemeanor, three counts


More on this one from Google News here.
_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## Lightguns

Hope he rots in hell and I hope the dozens of New Yorkers who watched a bleed black man pass them on the sidewalk join him in hell.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jewish kid arrested for hoax threats against Jewish centers world wide. 

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.779087?v=B5A3983820BE90A38603F587C04433A8

I saw a post about an idiot Muslim doing this, I am posting this to show that particular idiocy is not stuck to one religion or ideology only.

Also.. i saw this right before i saw the other post and it has stuck together for a few days so needed to get it out 😂

Abdullah


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The latest on the Charleston church shooter from June 2015 ....
> (...)
> P.S. -- Roof is also facing a state trial for the killings, which appears to be on hold while the federal proceedings unfold.


The latest:  Roof pleads guilty to state charges, gets 9 life sentences:
_*"Dylann Roof's 9 life sentences on state murder charges 'surest' route to federal execution, prosecutor says"*_ (_Charleston Post-Courier_)


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from an interesting Q&A with a former FBI undercover cop on radicalization ...


> ... Q)  When you look at these kinds of white nationalist groups and you look at a group like ISIS or al Qaeda, their ideologies are very different but many of their tactics are the same. When you look at these groups, what are the biggest similarities and what are the biggest differences?
> 
> A)  Absolutely. When I left the FBI I wrote a book about this called “Thinking Like a Terrorist” in which I tried to explain that terrorism is a methodology and that all the groups that use terrorism tend to follow the same strategies.
> 
> One of the things that surprised me when I went undercover was how much these groups published about their methods and motives. I expected aimless violence, anger, and hatred. Instead, they were handing me pamphlets and literature, and signing me up for newsletters. And all this stuff was open-source, partly because these organizations are clandestine. They can’t directly communicate with one another so the way they communicate is through publication. They promote broadly the methodologies they expect people to use.
> 
> A former Klansman named Louis Beam published a piece arguing that groups could no longer afford to be hierarchical because police had gotten good at tracing those hierarchies, no matter what secret methods they tried to use. Instead, people should follow a model of leaderless resistance where groups of likeminded people just come together without direct orders and participate in attacks that they expect would help further the cause.
> 
> After 9/11, when there was a focus on al Qaeda, everyone was pretending these things were brand new, but if you knew the tactics you could predict exactly each step they were going to make. And again, all this is published. If you look at the al Qaeda manual it’s really not that different from the Irish Republican Army green book or a lot of the white supremacist documents. There’s even a Brazilian Communist, Carlos Marighella, who was one of the first to put all of this on paper in the Minimanual of the Urban Guerilla.
> 
> So it was very frustrating to me in the three years after 9/11 before I left the FBI that we weren’t paying attention to those manuals, paying attention to what those tactics were, and trying to get in front of their tactics. Instead, we did what they wanted us to, which was respond emotionally in a very broad way. This helped them to expand the conflict and, as we can see almost 16 years later, we are continuing to expand that conflict across the globe, where it would have been better to respond in a much more narrowly focused way.


#RadicalizationConvergence?

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

Stretching the thread definition envelope a touch - not extremist, but certainly (eventually discovered to be) non-Muslim - shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ ...


> *Borussia Dortmund bombs: 'Speculator' charged with bus attack*
> 
> Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.
> 
> Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.
> 
> The suspect has been charged with attempted murder, triggering explosions and causing serious physical injury.
> 
> He has been identified only as Sergej W, and was staying in the team's hotel overlooking the scene of the attack.
> 
> Two people needed medical help after three bombs exploded near the bus.
> 
> Spanish footballer Marc Bartra underwent wrist surgery and a police officer was treated for shock.
> 
> Following the attack on 11 April, Borussia Dortmund's home Champions League match against Monaco was rescheduled a day later, which led Dortmund fans to open their doors to stranded away supporters.
> 
> Police initially treated the blast as a terrorist attack.
> 
> However, the following week, investigators cast "significant doubt" on jihadist motivations being behind it.
> 
> They now say the attack was in fact motivated by financial greed.
> 
> Sergej W, 28, would have made about €3.9m euros ($4.2m; £3.2m) from his actions, Germany's Bild newspaper reported.
> 
> In a statement on Friday (in German), the German federal prosecutor's office said he has German and Russian nationality.
> 
> He was arrested on Friday near Tubingen in Rottenburg, south-west Germany.
> 
> The suspect had allegedly bought 15,000 put options on Borussia Dortmund shares - reportedly priced at €78,000 (£65,000; $83,600) - betting that they would drop sharply after the attack.
> 
> He would have made large profits if the team's share price collapsed.
> 
> Experts have likened the alleged plot to a sophisticated form of insider trading - because he tried to use information not widely available to the public to make money quickly.
> 
> He was staying at the team's L'Arrivée hotel in Dortmund on the day of the attack and had moved to a room on the top floor, overlooking the street where it took place, prosecutors say.
> 
> The suspect placed the bet on 11 April using an IP address traced to the hotel, after taking out a loan for the money.
> 
> 
> _*What are put options?*_
> 
> A put option on a share or other asset is a contract, which allows an investor to sell the asset at an agreed price, on an agreed day in the future
> If the market price falls before then, the investor can then buy the asset more cheaply on the open market and sell it at the higher, option price to whoever sold the option. The investor pockets the price difference
> 
> 
> Investigators believe three explosive devices packed with metal pins were hidden in a hedge and set off as the bus passed.
> 
> The bus was damaged about six miles from the Westfalenstadion - officially called Signal Iduna Park - in Dortmund about 90 minutes before kick-off.
> 
> Pictures from the scene showed its windows broken and its tyres burst.



_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

False flag averted?


> Police have arrested a German soldier who had posed as a Syrian refugee on suspicion he was planning an attack, apparently motivated by anti-foreigner sentiment, in a case that prosecutors said Thursday was “more than strange.”
> 
> The 28-year-old lieutenant, whose name wasn’t released, faces charges of preparing an act of violence, said Frankfurt prosecutor’s spokeswoman Nadja Niesen.
> 
> The officer, who was “of German background” and stationed in France, allegedly stashed a loaded pistol in a bathroom at the Vienna airport that was discovered, leading Austrian authorities to take him into temporary custody when he went to retrieve it in February, Niesen said.
> 
> Though under investigation in Austria, authorities there did not keep him in custody and he was arrested in southern Germany on Wednesday.
> 
> A 24-year-old student from the soldier’s hometown of Offenbach was also arrested ...



_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

From Oregon ...

_*"Man hurling racial slurs at Muslim women kills 2, injures 1 on Oregon train, police say"*_ (Associated Press, via _Toronto Sun_)
_*"A man fatally stabbed two passengers aboard a Portland, Oregon, commuter train after they tried to stop him from harassing two young women who appeared to be Muslim, police said on Saturday.  Police identified the assailant, who was arrested soon after the Friday afternoon attack, as Jeremy Joseph Christian of Portland, a 35-year-old convicted felon ..."*_ (Reuters)
_*"Portland stabbing: Jeremy Joseph Christian appears in court"*_ (BBC)
_*" Portland man accused of fatal train stabbing has outburst in court* -- Jeremy Joseph Christian, accused of killing two men as they shielded a woman from his anti-Muslim tirade, shouted: ‘You call it terrorism, I call it patriotism!’ ..."_ (UK's _The Guardian_)


----------



## The Bread Guy

An interesting case from Sweden ...

(*I stand to be corrected, based on better reading of the source material than just Google Translate, but ...*) Swedish media report that some men charged with the bombing of a refugee shelter in February (as well as several other attempted bombings) reportedly received para-military training in Russia by Russian far-rightists alleged to be Russian reserve military officers.  The public prosecutor says there's no indication that the nationalist/white supremecist group the three were associated with -- the Nordic Resistance Movement (NRM)*** -- was involved in the bombing (in fact, it looks like the three acted on their own because the group wasn't militant enough).  Although a statement from the public prosecutor's office says the crime was "politically motivated", the media story says it's not being treated as a terror crime because of the lack of NRM involvement.

Original source material here (media story in Swedish) and here (public prosecutor's statement in Swedish) - both attached w/Google English translations.

*** - Usual Wikipedia caveats apply.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Next it'll be the Judean People's Front getting militant.  Or is that the People's Front of Judea?  I can never get those splitters straight.  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Next it'll be the Judean People's Front getting militant.  Or is that the People's Front of Judea?  I can never get those splitters straight.  ;D


Some of these group names DO have that feel, don't they?

Meanwhile, two more open source updates from New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security ...

_*"Anti-fascist groups, or “Antifa,” are a subset of the anarchist movement and focus on issues involving racism, sexism, and anti-Semitism, as well as other perceived injustices ..."*_
_*"To appeal to new audiences susceptible to its radical messaging, the national white supremacist movement has tried to deemphasize hate symbols and attacks against non-white communities ..."*_

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

_*NOTE:*_  Not found guilty of terror offences, but the US Attorney's Office statement does say _"The defendant solicited people to commit acts of violence in an effort to terrorize a community ..."_


> On Wednesday, June 14, 2017, Robert Doggart, 65, of Signal Mountain, Tennessee, was sentenced by the Honorable Curtis L. Collier, Senior U.S. District Judge, to serve 235 months in prison for soliciting another person to violate federal civil rights laws by burning down a mosque in Islamberg, a hamlet outside Hancock, New York. Upon his release from prison, he will be supervised by the U.S. Probation Office for three years. Doggart was also found guilty of soliciting another person to commit arson.
> 
> Evidence presented at trial established that, in February 2015, the FBI learned through a confidential source that Doggart was recruiting people online to carry out an armed attack on Islamberg, a community that is home to a large Muslim population. Doggart arranged to meet with the confidential source in Nashville, where he discussed details of his plan to burn down a mosque, a school, and a cafeteria in Islamberg. He showed the confidential source maps of Islamberg, laid out the number of guns and types of ammunition they would need to destroy the community, and discussed different ways to burn down a mosque and other buildings. Through a court order, the FBI also began intercepting Doggart’s phone calls, during which he solicited and recruited people to join him in his attack on Islamberg.
> 
> Doggart specifically targeted the mosque because it was a religious building and he discussed burning it down or blowing it up with a Molotov cocktail or other explosive device. At trial, the jury heard recorded conversations in which Doggart repeatedly discussed killing people, including one in which Doggart said, “I don’t want to have to kill children, but there’s always collateral damage.”
> 
> “People of all faiths have the fundamental right to worship freely, and this administration will not tolerate attempts to violate that right,” said Attorney General Jeff Sessions. “The defendant solicited people to commit acts of violence in an effort to terrorize a community simply because of its Islamic faith. The Justice Department will continue to aggressively investigate and prosecute attacks against our faith-based communities.”
> 
> “The people of the Eastern District of Tennessee will not tolerate the type of threats and actions perpetrated by Doggart. The United States Attorney’s Office will aggressively prosecute those who seek to disrupt the safety of our community and others,” said U.S. Attorney Nancy Stallard Harr.
> 
> Special Agent in Charge Renae McDermott of the Knoxville Division of the Federal Bureau of Investigation states that, “We are committed to investigating violations of federal civil rights statues. We prioritize civil rights investigations which are designed to protect all persons.”
> 
> The case was investigated by the FBI, Knoxville Division. Trial Attorney Saeed A. Mody of the Civil Rights Division, Assistant U.S. Attorney Perry H. Piper of the Eastern District of Tennessee, and Trial Attorney Clement McGovern of the National Security Division’s Counterterrorism Section, represented the United States at trial.


A bit more on this case from local (Chattanooga, TN) media:

_*"Tennessee man who planned attack against Muslim community sentenced to 20 years in prison"*_
_*"Signal Mountain man sentenced after plot to burn mosque"*_
_*"Doggart Gets Almost 20 Years For Plot To Attack Islamic Community In New York"*_

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## Jarnhamar

https://www.google.ca/amp/globalnews.ca/news/3538083/london-vehicle-driven-into-pedestrians/amp/


----------



## jollyjacktar

If this wasn't a genuine accident, I'm surprised it took this long for an incident that mirrors previous attacks to occur.


----------



## The Bread Guy

More on the latest from London here via Google News.


----------



## brihard

Looks like a white dude drove a car into a crowd of worshippers exiting a mosque. The mosque in question has a history, about twelve + years back, of having been identified as a hotbed of extremism, and carries a certain notoriety as a result. It looks like the governance of the mosque changed over completely in 2005, though I cannot speak to how it is currently. That said it would have been an obvious target for someone doing a surface Google search of a way to target Muslims in London.

At first glance, and obviously subject to all the normal breaking news caveats, it appears that we have an 'eye for an eye' reprisal- a terror attack against innocent civilians in reprisal for terrorist attacks against innocent civilians. This is of course as despicable and evil as any other such attack.

Sadly, disappointingly, and unsurprisingly I'm already seeing some real sacks of crap spouting off about 'karma' and 'reap what you sow' and such. As someone whose life is dedicated to protecting the innocent, that disgusts me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I saw the report on the news. I'm not going to bother in the least, including reading about it until the police investigation is ended and he is charged or freed. There's so much bullshit in the news today. When even CNN is flat out caught staging lies for the cameras, journalism is no longer something to pay attention to. Editorial or journalisic opinion is just that, opinion. Just like mine. Might be true, but increasingly it appears not to be. They've moved from being news reporters and journalists to storytellers and entertainers.

We don't even get it right here on Milnet. A guy hit pedestrians and because it 'appears' similar to attacks carried out by muslim terrorists, it automatically goes here in a terrorism thread. What if he had a medical problem or was texting. Nope, just like know it all journalists, we've already decided it was a planned attack. Like I've said, I'm not concerning myself until I hear it from sources I think I trust. YMMV.


----------



## AbdullahD

Let's face it, a lot of people are getting that sinking feeling in our hearts that this is a targeted attack.

I haven't been posting here much to be honest, because I can not seem to reliably connect to the site via my phone.. and my time frame seems to get forever extended regarding joining.

But I will be one of the most relieved people in the world if this turns out to have happened due to a medical reason or even if the guy was driving drunk and it was an accident. Because that will mean that we will not have to worry about reprisal attacks etc, because i think once that gate opens it will be hard to close. But, I have reservations.. for good reasons.

Such as a teen being murdered. But it is not counted as terrorism.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/fairfax-loudoun-police-searching-for-missing-17-year-old-reported-to-have-been-assaulted/2017/06/18/02e379ac-5466-11e7-a204-ad706461fa4f_story.html

Or the Portland event, Quebec event etc etc etc a list from the oh so reliable wikipedia.. has a suprising amount of instances of attacks against Muslims.. which sadly makes me think this was intentional.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobic_incidents

But one thing I am noticing is.. we make these idiots sound far more glorious then they deserve. Terrorist and extremist are pejorative terms to us.. but it seems the label 'terrorist' is desired to the idiots attracted to these things. So I hope the media stops using the term and refers to them as 'Mentally Handicapped Individuals' or some other demeaning term. Woops i got off on a tangent sorry. 

An online friend of mine is a cop in London allegedly and I have no reason not to believe him.. but hearing about Greenfell tower, the idiotic isis inspired fools and now this.. them poor boys are having it rough lately. My friend told me the day after the fire happened you could smell burnt flesh in the air.. 

Sorry I will stop now, the medication I am on has me extremely loopy. But basically I can't wait for mankind to collectively grow the heck up and stop killing ourselves.. it is about dang time.

Abdullah

P.s I try to stay out of this thread and not turn it into a tit for tat thread. That is not my intention with my post.. it is just my heart breaks because of what these poor lads in england have been going through.


----------



## McG

We are not immune in Canada, with a 5% increase in hate crimes seemingly being driven by a 12% increase in hate crime against Muslims.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40252489


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> I saw the report on the news. I'm not going to bother in the least, including reading about it until the police investigation is ended and he is charged or freed. There's so much bullshit in the news today. When even CNN is flat out caught staging lies for the cameras, journalism is no longer something to pay attention to. Editorial or journalisic opinion is just that, opinion. Just like mine. Might be true, but increasingly it appears not to be. They've moved from being news reporters and journalists to storytellers and entertainers.
> 
> We don't even get it right here on Milnet. A guy hit pedestrians and because it 'appears' similar to attacks carried out by muslim terrorists, it automatically goes here in a terrorism thread. What if he had a medical problem or was texting. Nope, just like know it all journalists, we've already decided it was a planned attack. Like I've said, I'm not concerning myself until I hear it from sources I think I trust. YMMV.



The police declared it a terror attack eight minutes after the incident.  The country's counter terrorism unit has taken over the investigation.  In their opinion they declared it as such.  If the sources you trust didn't report that, then I would question your sources...


----------



## The Bread Guy

recceguy said:
			
		

> ... A guy hit pedestrians and because it 'appears' similar to attacks carried out by muslim terrorists, it automatically goes here in a terrorism thread. *What if he had a medical problem or was texting*.  Nope, just like know it all journalists, we've already decided it was a planned attack ...


London's Metro Police had this to say:


> ... No matter what the motivation proves to be, and we are keeping an open mind, this is being treated as a terrorist attack and the Counter Terrorism Command is investigating ...


You're right that it hasn't been proven to be a terrorist attack yet, but if your theory in yellow turns out to be the case, I'm pretty certain that information'll be shared here, too.


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> ... I'm not concerning myself until I hear it from sources I think I trust ...


I know the sources I look at (all with varying sizes of grains of salt) - what sources do you think you trust, then?  I'm always looking to expand my range of sources - who do you trust these days?


----------



## jollyjacktar

As I said, I'm surprised to some degree that a reciprocal attack hasn't happened before this as no doubt there are elements from society who are equally as sick and twisted.  I suspect the only reason it's not come to this until now is I expect they aren't as willing to die in the act as their end motivations are different and leaving pigs heads or paint was enough up to now.   I agree with Brihard and Abdullah, attacking innocent people is disgusting.  I hope this doesn't encourage more of the same tit for tat shit should this be a genuine attack and not another cause.


----------



## brihard

It appears our questions earlier have been put to be. That was indeed a retaliatory terror attack against Muslims by a white Briton. The BBC article has quite a bit of detail. The PM and the Met Police commissioner have clearly identified this as terrorism and an attack on Muslims. Witnesses on scene report that after the driver was detained he said he wanted to kill Muslims, and said he 'did his bit', and told them to kill him. Police will be getting a mental health assessment on him. Somewhat confusingly, it looks like there was already first aid being provided on a man who was in medical distress on scene, and then the van hit them. That is believed to be the lone fatality, and police are investigating whether the collision was part of the cause of death.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40322960

I suspect that like many other attacks, we will find that this individual fits into my 'radicalized loser' theory- he's probably a failure in his own right, quite likely not all there upstairs, and probably sought meaning in an otherwise meaningless life.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> ... Witnesses on scene report that after the driver was detained he said he wanted to kill Muslims, and said he 'did his bit', and told them to kill him ...
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40322960


Meanwhile, elsewhere on the interwebs, the "false flag" allegation has _already_ been raised (more on YouTube here) ...  :facepalm:



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> ... I suspect that like many other attacks, we will find that this individual fits into my 'radicalized loser' theory- he's probably a failure in his own right, quite likely not all there upstairs, and probably sought meaning in an otherwise meaningless life.


:nod: #TheOtherRadicalization


----------



## George Wallace

Judge for yourself his state of mind and social bearing:

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/finsbury-park-attacker-named-as-cardiff-resident-darren-osborne/ar-BBCTBz2?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartandhp


----------



## brihard

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Judge for yourself his state of mind and social bearing:
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/finsbury-park-attacker-named-as-cardiff-resident-darren-osborne/ar-BBCTBz2?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartandhp



That article gives us practically nothing to go on to make those assessments. White dude, middle aged, from Wales. It doesn't establish with any degree of confidence his state of mind, his sanity, or how he may have been radicalized. It tries to draw an inference based on their being racist nationalist groups in the same area, but of course all of the U.K. is quite small with significant population density. You'll find nationalist groups close to anywhere.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> That article gives us practically nothing to go on to make those assessments. White dude, middle aged, from Wales. It doesn't establish with any degree of confidence his state of mind, his sanity, or how he may have been radicalized. It tries to draw an inference based on their being racist nationalist groups in the same area, but of course all of the U.K. is quite small with significant population density. You'll find nationalist groups close to anywhere.



Definitely not enough info to go on to make any judgement on state of mind or even social bearing. 

MTF I guess as it becomes known.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Judge for yourself his state of mind and social bearing:
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/finsbury-park-attacker-named-as-cardiff-resident-darren-osborne/ar-BBCTBz2?li=AAadgLE&ocid=spartandhp


There's no evidence in the piece connecting the individual with any group, but there's still an interesting narrative tidbit to stay tuned for in the coming days ...


> ... Several far right groups are active in south Wales, in the vicinity of Pontyclun where Osborne is believed to have hired the van used in the attack. They include the South Wales National Front. Its leader, Adam Lloyd, is based in Bridgend, but it has denied any connection to the attacker.
> 
> Lloyd, the SWNF organiser, denied any connection to the attacker.
> 
> “The man in question is not known to any of us here in South Wales National Front, and to our knowledge is not and never has been a member,” he said.
> 
> “Although we will never condone or accept this kind of violent attacks here in SWNF, anyone with a right mind can see this is not a terrorist attack but a revenge attack.” ...


Definition of "revenge":  _"the act of doing something to hurt someone because that person did something that hurt you"_


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Wow. I rest my case.


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> Wow. I rest my case.



You're resting your case on the opinion of a white supremist?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

No, I'm resting my case that even the MSM isn't sure of what's going on, but it's not stopping them from trying to be first with the headline. So much so, that their speculation and reporting is doing nothing but muddying the waters. And the readers of their fluff are falling all over themselves agreeing/ denying/ going off on their own wild tangents and arguments.

I don't even know how you twisted what I said into support for the person responsible for what happened or what anyone else in the press has to say. I am on no side. Not the driver's or the muslims' or the white supremacists' or any here. I have my own thoughts, but I'll keep them to myself until I decide I have enough for a solid assessment.

There is still too much unexplained and uncorroborated 'evidence' to be drawing conclusions at this point. Until the veracity of _everything_ that took place is known, there is no reasonable or probable grounds to form an opinion of what happened beyond a white guy drove a truck into a group of muslims.


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> No, I'm resting my case that even the MSM isn't sure of what's going on, but it's not stopping them from trying to be first with the headline. So much so, that their speculation and reporting is doing nothing but muddying the waters. And the readers of their fluff are falling all over themselves agreeing/ denying/ going off on their own wild tangents and arguments.
> 
> I don't even know how you twisted what I said into support for the person responsible for what happened or what anyone else in the press has to say. I am on no side. Not the driver's or the muslims' or the white supremacists' or any here. I have my own thoughts, but I'll keep them to myself until I decide I have enough for a solid assessment.
> 
> There is still too much unexplained and uncorroborated 'evidence' to be drawing conclusions at this point. Until the veracity of _everything_ that took place is known, there is no reasonable or probable grounds to form an opinion of what happened beyond a white guy drove a truck into a group of muslims.



To be honest I don't blame your skepticism.  But the media is going with what they are being told.  If the London police says "we are treating this as a terrorist attack" what do you expect the narrative to be? That part, the part that states what the police said is a fact whether you believe it or not.  Fake news is indeed fake news.  News that gets it wrong doesn't always equate to fake.  No one here is running wild with anything despite you thinking that opinions are being formed based on what the media is saying. 

I also didn't twist anything you said.  You rested your case after someone posted the opinion of a white supremacist. I thought that was odd.  

You said you have trusted sources that someone else here was curious about that you were waiting on.  I'd also like to know what those trusted sources are. If anything I do like to expand the various forums and less sources I go to.  I'm legitimately asking, it's not to call you out or anything but I'd like to know what a skeptic's trusted news sources are.


----------



## Jarnhamar

White people can be Muslim too.  Some of the most vitriolic dudes I've came across on youtube were white converts. 

It's interesting to see side by side pictures of comments from twitter comparing what people say when it's a terrorist attack committed by Muslims against when one is carried out by a non-Muslim.


----------



## George Wallace

[


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> White people can be Muslim too.  Some of the most vitriolic dudes I've came across on youtube were white converts.
> 
> It's interesting to see side by side pictures of comments from twitter comparing what people say when it's a terrorist attack committed by Muslims against when one is carried out by a non-Muslim.



White people are what anthropologists call "Caucasians".  Quite a few Muslims, particularly in the Middle East, Eurasia, Northern Africa and Southwest Asia are "Caucasians".  It is quite humourous when it comes to people using "racism" in their argument on this subject.

Back on topic.  What we have is a nut job, just like the one who shot the Republican members of Congress practicing at the ballpark.  There are thousands out there, in every nation.  I am not sure if I would label this case as one of terrorism over a case of assault.  I look at it as a case where someone wanted to retaliate to "terrorism" at the first target they saw.  More of an case of assault with a deadly weapon than a terrorist act.  We shall see what comes out in Court, when that day comes, as to what his motives really were, and whether they were planned or just spur of the moment.

I also think that there is a great difference between terrorism and terrorizing.  Our concept of "terrorists" is that they conduct "terrorism"; but "criminals" have also been known to "terrorize".  For example: the Hells Angels have not been branded as a "terrorist group", yet they have been known to "terrorize" segments of our society.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Treating it as a terrorist incident and knowing it is are two different things. Police can treat near anything as a terrorist incident. It allows for special powers when someone is suspected of it. No time limit to hold them, legal privileges suspended etc. It's actually pretty common IIRC. They can always downgrade the charges later when they know more about what's going on. Treating it as a terrorism act allows them to hold the suspect where he'd normally be freed on bail. That's what I see. YMMV.

At any rate, that's as far as I'm going, with this, until I see something concrete.


----------



## Remius

No argument there.

But your statement about this reads as though you blamed the media for the narrative when in fact it is the police who started it.  The media went with what the police told them.  You can't blame them for that. 

I'm all for calling out the media when they are wrong but maybe you should blame the police for starting this.

 Not the media and certainly not the people here.


----------



## brihard

recceguy said:
			
		

> Until the veracity of _everything_ that took place is known, there is no reasonable or probable grounds to form an opinion of what happened beyond a white guy drove a truck into a group of muslims.



The Brits have a similar threshold for charging criminal offences as us- in our case we quite literlaly use the term 'reasonable and probable grounds'. In this case the attacker has been charged with at least one terrorism offense. So it appears that yes, actually, there ARE reasonable and probable grounds to form the opinion that a terrorism act took place - at least in the mind of British police and crown prosecutors. I don't know what weight you give to their opinion in this matter, but in my mind it ought to be a lot. You don't just slap terrorism charges willy nilly on top of already very solid criminal cases.

The guy attacked Muslims, stated his desire to kill Muslims, and claimed to have 'done his bit'. He was attacking a whole people based on their religious views in an apparent tit for tat. If this doesn't fit your concept of 'terrorism', you need to revise. I am saddened but not surprised at the contortions some people are going to to call this something other than what it appears to be, who otherwise if the attacker were Muslim would be very quickly on that particular train.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:
			
		

> No argument there.
> 
> But your statement about this reads as though you blamed the media for the narrative when in fact it is the police who started it.  The media went with what the police told them.  You can't blame them for that.
> 
> I'm all for calling out the media when they are wrong but maybe you should blame the police for starting this.
> 
> Not the media and certainly not the people here.



Not blaming anyone here, whatever you meant by that. I don't care what they write or perceive, didn't even read most of it. Do whatever you want. Think whatever you want. I'll do likewise. Nobody says you have to listen to me or even agree. As far as what I should or shouldn't do, you don't get to decide any of that. Again, unless there's new info, the police said they were TREATING as a terrorist attack, not that it was a terrorist act, for the reasons I already stated. As far as I know, they haven't come out and made that point definite yet. It's an easily missed point but a valid one and it's not picking flyshit out of pepper. The police are usually very picky and particular about the way they word things for the public. Journalists, not so much. You'll have to live with this answer as I'm not discussing my POV until I have better info. You can do as you wish. Just because I may not agree with you or someone else, doesn't mean I'm wrong or my perceptions are skewed. It means I can think for myself and not worry what anyone else thinks or says, unless I wish to.
You should try it.  
eaceut


----------



## Jarnhamar

He should have traveled to Syria and  blew himself up in an Isis strong point. What a loser.


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not blaming anyone here, whatever you meant by that. I don't care what they write or perceive, didn't even read most of it. Do whatever you want. Think whatever you want. I'll do likewise. Nobody says you have to listen to me or even agree. As far as what I should or shouldn't do, you don't get to decide any of that. Again, unless there's new info, the police said they were TREATING as a terrorist attack, not that it was a terrorist act, for the reasons I already stated. As far as I know, they haven't come out and made that point definite yet. It's an easily missed point but a valid one and it's not picking flyshit out of pepper. The police are usually very picky and particular about the way they word things for the public. Journalists, not so much. You'll have to live with this answer as I'm not discussing my POV until I have better info. You can do as you wish. Just because I may not agree with you or someone else, doesn't mean I'm wrong or my perceptions are skewed. It means I can think for myself and not worry what anyone else thinks or says, unless I wish to.
> You should try it.
> eaceut



Hey fill your boots.  I haven't made any claims lol.  You admitted to not reading anything about it so I get that you thought the narrative was started by the media and not the police.  I'll let your last swipe at me there pass as it just proves what I was saying.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Brits have a similar threshold for charging criminal offences as us- in our case we quite literlaly use the term 'reasonable and probable grounds'. In this case the attacker has been charged with at least one terrorism offense. So it appears that yes, actually, there ARE reasonable and probable grounds to form the opinion that a terrorism act took place - at least in the mind of British police and crown prosecutors. I don't know what weight you give to their opinion in this matter, but in my mind it ought to be a lot. You don't just slap terrorism charges willy nilly on top of already very solid criminal cases.
> 
> The guy attacked Muslims, stated his desire to kill Muslims, and claimed to have 'done his bit'. He was attacking a whole people based on their religious views in an apparent tit for tat. If this doesn't fit your concept of 'terrorism', you need to revise. I am saddened but not surprised at the contortions some people are going to to call this something other than what it appears to be, who otherwise if the attacker were Muslim would be very quickly on that particular train.



 :goodpost:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Brits have a similar threshold for charging criminal offences as us- in our case we quite literlaly use the term 'reasonable and probable grounds'. In this case the attacker has been charged with at least one terrorism offense. So it appears that yes, actually, there ARE reasonable and probable grounds to form the opinion that a terrorism act took place - at least in the mind of British police and crown prosecutors. I don't know what weight you give to their opinion in this matter, but in my mind it ought to be a lot. You don't just slap terrorism charges willy nilly on top of already very solid criminal cases.
> 
> The guy attacked Muslims, stated his desire to kill Muslims, and claimed to have 'done his bit'. He was attacking a whole people based on their religious views in an apparent tit for tat. If this doesn't fit your concept of 'terrorism', you need to revise. I am saddened but not surprised at the contortions some people are going to to call this something other than what it appears to be, who otherwise if the attacker were Muslim would be very quickly on that particular train.


 I resent the fact that you imply that I'm going through contortions to excuse the guy for what he did. That's asinine and idiotic and well beneath you. You spoke directly to me in your post, for all of your post, so I have to believe your last comment was also made to me. I want you to show me where I defended his actions. All I said was to wait for the police and trial for the real facts and not believe everything you hear or read from the news. Nice prejudging though, which is my whole point and has been all along. Thanks much for proving it for me. 

I also don't spend all day going through newspaper and newscast to stay intimate in my timing with released facts. I'm more than aware of what reasonable and probable grounds are. I was investigating for them, before you became a Queen's Cowboy. 

I simply wasn't aware they'd laid a charge on him for terrorism. Like I say, I'm not glued to the story like others are. So, if that's what they did, I'm OK with that, so I'm not the one getting twisted around the axle over this.  If it turns out he's judged a terrorist, I'm fine with that too and if he gets a maximum sentence, I'm also ok with that. I'm just saying, we've got a live one finally, let's make sure he's given his chance at reasonable doubt and that all his rights are afforded. All the bases need covering on this one. Can't afford a mistrial on a stupid, forgotten rule of some sort. Or because a press leak compromises something. He doesn't need to be tried by journalistic perception. No different than any other of the bombers or truck attacks. The only difference is the others always die before we can get to them. This one didn't and it can't be fucked up with rumours, innuendo or leaks. It needs to be air tight. What is the fault in that?

In MOST cases I believe what the police tell me and I'll take it at face value. Journalists, editors and owners of newspaper and electronic news media, not so much. That's a personal preference and one that I'll stick to until I see otherwise. You are free to think what you wish and I won't attempt to dissuade you. Please respect my choice to not believe the media. And really that's what started all this, I said I don't trust the media to get it right. Somehow, it's turned, falsely, into that I'm a cheerleader for the guy. None of us, except for a few, are journalists or reporters or whatever and look how all this turned on its head with this little group. Imagine millions of people getting it wrong because of the way a news outlet reported it. THAT is what I've been saying. Sorry to disappoint. You'll have to find another punching bag.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:
			
		

> Hey fill your boots.  I haven't made any claims lol.  You admitted to not reading anything about it so I get that you thought the narrative was started by the media and not the police.  I'll let your last swipe at me there pass as it just proves what I was saying.



Again, you are twisting facts to suit your narrative. I never said I didn't read anything about it. I said I didn't read most of the responses here. Nice try though. See you later.


----------



## brihard

recceguy said:
			
		

> I resent the fact that you imply that I'm going through contortions to excuse the guy for what he did. That's asinine and idiotic and well beneath you. You spoke directly to me in your post, for all of your post, so I have to believe your last comment was also made to me. I want you to show me where I defended his actions. All I said was to wait for the police and trial for the real facts and not believe everything you hear or read from the news. Nice prejudging though, which is my whole point and has been all along. Thanks much for proving it for me.
> 
> I also don't spend all day going through newspaper and newscast to stay intimate in my timing with released facts. I'm more than aware of what reasonable and probable grounds are. I was investigating for them, before you became a Queen's Cowboy.
> 
> I simply wasn't aware they'd laid a charge on him for terrorism. Like I say, I'm not glued to the story like others are. So, if that's what they did, I'm OK with that, so I'm not the one getting twisted around the axle over this.  If it turns out he's judged a terrorist, I'm fine with that too and if he gets a maximum sentence, I'm also ok with that. I'm just saying, we've got a live one finally, let's make sure he's given his chance at reasonable doubt and that all his rights are afforded. All the bases need covering on this one. Can't afford a mistrial on a stupid, forgotten rule of some sort. Or because a press leak compromises something. He doesn't need to be tried by journalistic perception. No different than any other of the bombers or truck attacks. The only difference is the others always die before we can get to them. This one didn't and it can't be ****ed up with rumours, innuendo or leaks. It needs to be air tight. What is the fault in that?
> 
> In MOST cases I believe what the police tell me and I'll take it at face value. Journalists, editors and owners of newspaper and electronic news media, not so much. That's a personal preference and one that I'll stick to until I see otherwise. You are free to think what you wish and I won't attempt to dissuade you. Please respect my choice to not believe the media. And really that's what started all this, I said I don't trust the media to get it right. Somehow, it's turned, falsely, into that I'm a cheerleader for the guy. None of us, except for a few, are journalists or reporters or whatever and look how all this turned on its head with this little group. Imagine millions of people getting it wrong because of the way a news outlet reported it. THAT is what I've been saying. Sorry to disappoint. You'll have to find another punching bag.



I didn't spend all day following the story either. I spent about five minutes on Google to catch up with the day's events- less time than it would have taken you to write your last couple posts expressing your vehement non-commital on this one. The stories about him being charged with a terrorism offense appear to have come out this morning.

At no point did I claim you defended his actions. Don't be silly. I would never accuse you or another member of this board of something like that. I also should have made sure my post clearly took a step back from addressing you directly to reference the contortions people are going through to avoid calling this terrorism, and for that I apologize. I have seen that all over the place though, where there isn't simply a marked silence, and I fin that noteworthy- a lot of those who are first in the 'kick 'em all out' crowd are quiet on this one. While I find you surprisingly and uncharacteristically vocal on not committing to a point of view on this one at this stage, I wasn't aiming that part of my post squarely at you. I'm still surprised by the lengths you went to to make sure we all knew that you weren't comfortable seeing this called terrorism yet- I've never seen you push that angle that hard on any prior attacks. It's not an accusation, just an observation.


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> Again, you are twisting facts to suit your narrative. I never said I didn't read anything about it. I said I didn't read most of the responses here. Nice try though. See you later.



I believe you said this in reply 57:  _I'm not going to bother in the least, including reading about it until the police investigation is ended and he is charged or freed. _

 :dunno:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:
			
		

> I believe you said this in reply 57:  _I'm not going to bother in the least, including reading about it until the police investigation is ended and he is charged or freed. _
> 
> :dunno:



OK, you win. Game over.

I'm not putting you on ignore but I'm finished conversing with you.

Yup, taking my ball and going home. Better things to do that spar back and forth with someone that wants to parse every sentence looking for ways I`ve slipped up. I am not required to answer every question posed to me on these boards. I`ll enter and exit threads and conversations as I see fit. Right now, my time is too limited to bother explaining my every word to you. Don`t take it personal, you are not the only one in the boat.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Brihard said:
			
		

> I didn't spend all day following the story either. I spent about five minutes on Google to catch up with the day's events- less time than it would have taken you to write your last couple posts expressing your vehement non-commital on this one. The stories about him being charged with a terrorism offense appear to have come out this morning.
> 
> At no point did I claim you defended his actions. Don't be silly. I would never accuse you or another member of this board of something like that. I also should have made sure my post clearly took a step back from addressing you directly to reference the contortions people are going through to avoid calling this terrorism, and for that I apologize. I have seen that all over the place though, where there isn't simply a marked silence, and I fin that noteworthy- a lot of those who are first in the 'kick 'em all out' crowd are quiet on this one. While I find you surprisingly and uncharacteristically vocal on not committing to a point of view on this one at this stage, I wasn't aiming that part of my post squarely at you. I'm still surprised by the lengths you went to to make sure we all knew that you weren't comfortable seeing this called terrorism yet- I've never seen you push that angle that hard on any prior attacks. It's not an accusation, just an observation.



Here`s another observation, and why I`m pushing for his rights.

This one is ALIVE. How many times do we get that chance. Who cares about the dead ones, whatever their beliefs and religious convictions. We can say whatever we want about them. This one is alive and it has to be done properly. Flip side, I`m surprised that you are considering him guilty as charged without seeing the evidence and deciding he`s a terrorist based on what you`ve heard. Because he was charged with a terror offence, doesnt mean he`s going to be convicted as one, and you know that. Capture one of the muslim truckers alive and I`ll say the same thing. If he died, too bad, call him whatever you want. As to me pushing _my angle_ I`ve been far less vocal on the threads about muslim terrorists than others have, so Im not putting that mantle on even if you want me to wear it.

I just want the guy to have a fair trial as I would for anyone that goes before the bench. Muslim terrorists included. And all I`m hoping for is that we can learn something thatll serve us down the road. All Im asking for is a clean trial without all the journalistic sensationalism and guessing.

I`m not trying to be an asshole, but I`m done with this. I don`t need to defend my position to anyone here. The MSM is biased and not beyond stretching the truth to further their own agenda. I dont care what Jimmy Olsen thinks. I want him to give me the facts, clinically, and keep his opinion to himself.

And just so everyone is clear, I don`t give a fuck if the guy is a purple skinned worshiper of the sun god Ra. He`s, because alive and charged, entitled to all the fairness we can provide, without the speculation of the media. I wouldn`t be surprised if the Judge puts a blackout on media coverage. I`ve simply decided, that because he`s *alive* and being brought before justice, I would rather wait and hear what is said at trial, instead of what CNN decides to say. I don`t know how else to put it. Save your breath if you still think I`m wrong, because that is the last I`m speaking of my personal decision. It`s all there, nothing else to say on it.

And if you think I`m being racist because the guy is white and I want him to have a fair trial, I am the moderator that has kicked white supremacists and racially prejudiced people off of this site, when no one else would, so don`t even consider going down that road.


----------



## YZT580

I tend to agree that this is not a terrorist act.  Now before you start flaming, consider this: the purpose of a terrorist act is to terrorise, that is to instil fear in a group or a person in order to either dominate or drive them away.  This chap does not appear to have any such motives.  From what little I have been able to gather from the press, he simply wanted to murder and his murderous rage was targeted at a particular group of people i.e. Muslims which would make this, imho a racist attack motivated by bigotry.  The term terrorist is vastly overused and needs to be reserved for those who are trying to terrorise otherwise its import is lessened significantly and that is perhaps not so good


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Everyone chill out and have a beer,  nobody needs to flame anyone   8)

We especially shouldn't be getting worked up with each other over a whack job


----------



## CEDE NULLIS

YZT580 said:
			
		

> I tend to agree that this is not a terrorist act.  Now before you start flaming, consider this: the purpose of a terrorist act is to terrorise, that is to instil fear in a group or a person in order to either dominate or drive them away. * This chap does not appear to have any such motives.*



Not sure I agree here. He went out of his way to rent a vehicle, and drive 150 miles in the middle of the night from Cardiff to London in order to attack one of the most "iconic" mosques in the UK to carry out this crime. See info r.e. Finsbury Park mosque: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/finsbury-park-mosque-terror-attack-latest-abu-hamza-changed-since-won-awards-for-community-relations-a7798171.html

What I think we can all agree on is the use of the term "terrorism" is problematic in many cases - and this applies to attacks carried out by radicals of all stripes.


----------



## Jarnhamar

YZT580 said:
			
		

> was targeted at a particular group of people i.e. Muslims which would make this, imho a *racist attack* motivated by bigotry.


Muslim (devout followers of Islam) isn't a race.



> The term terrorist is vastly overused and needs to be reserved for those who are trying to terrorise otherwise its import is lessened significantly and that is perhaps not so good


Terrorism usually seems to be (or is made out to be?) synonymous with middle eastern/muslim attack when I'm sure we can agree anyone can be a terrorist. In this guys case I too wonder if it would fit the (or a) definition or terrorist. If he wanted to terrorize a specific community then he probably succeeded but was it on behalf of some political/religious/anti-government bigger picture or did he just want to kill people because he was angry.


----------



## jmt18325

Can we all at least agree that it was a hate crime?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

I agree with that jmt.  My biggest problem with the use of terrorist/terrorism is that terrorism is a tactic not an actual enemy.  

By calling someone a terrorist we basically dehumanize them and act as if the organizations they represent aren't rational actors.

Some people who carry out these attacks aren't rational but the brainpower behind ISIS/Al Qaeda, etc is.


----------



## Infant_Tree

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> Can we all at least agree that it was a hate crime?



Definitely. Osborne attempted to kill innocent people just because of their faith.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... If he wanted to terrorize a specific community then he probably succeeded but was it on behalf of some political/religious/anti-government bigger picture or did he just want to kill people because he was angry.


Good point - apart from the fact that being angry doesn't excuse killing  ;D  *All the evidence is not in, by any means*, but if we look at radicalization for one group of bad guys/actors as a source of anger & momentum, how about with other bad guys/actors?  Don't know what this guy read/was exposed to, but it might be a factor - it appears to have been in at least some non-Muslim attacks.  It helps to know the why to figure out ways to prevent more from sprouting.

Another potential source of anger for idiots going full idiot discussed in other threads is government action.  Could that be seen as "radicalizing"?  Is that any mitigation?  Not to me, but there may be a range of opinion on that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I agree with that jmt.  My biggest problem with the use of terrorist/terrorism is that terrorism is a tactic not an actual enemy.
> 
> By calling someone a terrorist we basically dehumanize them and act as if the organizations they represent aren't rational actors.
> 
> Some people who carry out these attacks aren't rational but the brainpower behind ISIS/Al Qaeda, etc is.



The term and current connotation has been around for awhile. If you were around then, we considered and called Carlos the Jackal, the Red Brigade, the Baader-Meinhof gang and Black September terrorists and terrorist organizations. And yes, there was some pretty smart cookies in those groups also. I'm wondering if there is much difference between a self radicalized guy in his mom's basement with a mid level ISIS fighter. Both are bombing for allah and using terror as their weapon. Both are radicalized to the same end, armed the same and have the same goal. I'm sure we would look at mental capacity if we could get one alive, but until such time, if it walks like a duck............ 

Ooopps, just about forgot the FLQ.


----------



## Old Sweat

recceguy said:
			
		

> The term and current connotation has been around for awhile. If you were around then, we considered and called Carlos the Jackal, the Red Brigade, the Baader-Meinhof gang and Black September terrorists and terrorist organizations. And yes, there was some pretty smart cookies in those groups also. I'm wondering if there is much difference between a self radicalized guy in his mom's basement with a mid level ISIS fighter. Both are bombing for allah and using terror as their weapon. Both are radicalized to the same end, armed the same and have the same goal. I'm sure we would look at mental capacity if we could get one alive, but until such time, if it walks like a duck............
> 
> Ooopps, just about forgot the FLQ.



The terrorists of the sixties, seventies and eighties were motivated more by political beliefs of the far left variety rather than religion. Many had cut their teeth on liberation ideology and had a "radical chic" upper middle class background. While some of the modern genre's western recruits also were from the same social base, their motivation and that of their hosts/sponsors was much more religious than political. 

Perhaps that makes it more difficult to deprogram the modern variety. On the other hand, the home grown variety tend towards ideology rather than religion as a motivator. In some cases is is difficult to draw the line between criminal and terrorist.


----------



## Brad Sallows

My loose working definition of "terrorism" has always been "criminal violence to effect political pressure (in service of political ends)".


----------



## Infant_Tree

Terrorism is a term used in its broadest sense to describe the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim.

Source: Wikipedia


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> My loose working definition of "terrorism" has always been "criminal violence to effect political pressure (in service of political ends)".





			
				Infant_Tree said:
			
		

> Terrorism is a term used in its broadest sense to describe the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim.
> 
> Source: Wikipedia



Both useful ways to see it, and both are more or less on the mark, though we could haggle a bit over what we mean by 'indiscriminate'. I view 'indiscriminate' as a failure to discriminate, e.g. a carpet bombing in a military campaign that goes after military targets but wilfully disregards the disproportionate presence of civilians in the effected area. Conversely, a lot of terrorist operations are very discriminate indeed. They don't care which particular civilians they kill or harm, but they ARE specifically targeting civilian targets in general in order to achieve the desired political effect of their fires.



			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The terrorists of the sixties, seventies and eighties were motivated more by political beliefs of the far left variety rather than religion. Many had cut their teeth on liberation ideology and had a "radical chic" upper middle class background. While some of the modern genre's western recruits also were from the same social base, their motivation and that of their hosts/sponsors was much more religious than political.
> 
> Perhaps that makes it more difficult to deprogram the modern variety. On the other hand, the home grown variety tend towards ideology rather than religion as a motivator. In some cases is is difficult to draw the line between criminal and terrorist.



Terrorism will almost always be also inherently criminal; I struggle to think of where those would not overlap. It is that intent to exert political/ideological/economic influence through that unlawful use of force that pushes acts that are criminal anyway into the more narrow criminal realm of terrorism. As for the home-grown ones, it's hard to tell where religion and ideology start and end and blend in to each other... A lot of discussions could be had about the doctrinal legitimacy of religious justifications for violence/terror; that's outside I think almost all of our arcs here- I'm not aware of anyone on the site who professes theological expertise sufficient to this. Suffice to say a lot of lines are blurred.

It has been my observation both from what has made the news and from what I see at work that many of our 'home growns' do not come from backgrounds that necessarily lend themselves obviously to radicalization. Aaron Driver, the Ontario suicide bomber last year, was the son of an RCAF member. Tevis Gonyou-McLean, who has been in the public eye here in Ottawa as the subject of a terrorist peace bond, is another red headed white kid. who seems to have descended into a combination of drug abuse/mental illness, and then at some point in recent years slid into self-radicalization online. Michael Zehaf-Bibeau (Parliament shooter) was the son of a Canadian bureaucrat and a Libyan businessman, and was Roman Catholic for 22 years before converting and subsequently radicalizing. Martin Couture-Rouleau (St. Jean attack that killed WO Vincent) was a young adult, had recently failed in small business and undergone a religious conversion and brisk self-radicalization.

There are plenty of others who have been reported on, and many more who have not. A lot of them would very easily slip into the current on any major city's streets- living out of the shelters, in and out of drug abuse, uttering paranoid / anti-government rantings that seem more attributable to mental illness than anything. Most will never present a genuine security threat, but of course that cannot necessarily be known at the point of risk assessment. And that switch may flip abruptly and with little warning. We were lucky Aaron driver was an idiot and posted a YouTube video that got the U.S. to alert Canadian authorities. Several of the others, obviously, we did not learn about sufficiently until they acted.

So is there a clear line between criminality, ideology, mental illness, and terrorism? No. I would contend that while mental illness is not a necessary cause i acts of individualized terrorism, it is often present. The ideology in such terrorism is usually linked to at least the perpetrators interpretation of a religion, usually Islam- though this is not always the case; Anders Breivik comes to mind, and the most recent ramming in London looks initially to have been an attack against a religious population but not likely motivated by the attacker's own religious beliefs.

How useful is it truly to have a working definition of terrorism? I would say very, and this is for pragmatic purposes- it gives police and intelligence agencies something to hang their hat on with regards to identified potential threats to the state/society that exist outside the normal rationality of criminal behaviour. I believe there *is* something distinct about someone or a group who want to specifically harm our society, vice those who act criminally for acquisitive purposes, or due to more run of the mill human idiocy- those who target individuals, or satisfy their own sick urges, versus those who deliberately attack the social fabric itself. I believe more steps are justified on the part of the state to combat the latter, and we see that in certain investigative and enforcement powers that put a bit more weight against terrorism offences.

I do not believe we can have a perfect operational definition of terrorism that will be both inclusive and exclusive flawlessly and precisely. I believe we have erred on the side of not including things in terrorism, versus erring on the side of including things that we shouldn't. I believe this is the correct decision to err, because there is still quite a bit that can be done once a risk is identified, even if they don't outright commit terrorist offences. However the legitimacy of such an enhanced security approach rests on us being cautious in its application. I think we mostly get it right.

I believe, unfortunately, that there is no way we can get this 100% right, and that as a result we (the collective Western 'we', inclusive of Canada) will take the odd hit and will suffer losses. Canada has barely seen this yet- we will eventually have major attacks on our soil that will test our resolve and probably make my week very crappy. There is a diminishing rate of return on added security measures, and I think other than certain target hardening there's not a great deal more we can achieve simply by putting more police on the streets (or troops, for that matter, if it came to it). Though I am cognizant that in the past couple of days police and soldiers have interrupted attempted attacks in both Paris and Brussels, resulting in the deaths of two separate suicide bombers who both launched their attacks poorly. So I don't dismiss the utility of the 'boots on the ground' approach in major urban centres at all. Some target areas are reasonably predictable. But that's a decision well above my level.

I don't see a way out of this. We will simply have to keep doing the best we can to be vigilant, flexible, adaptable, and at times promptly ruthless when an imminent threat is identified. And we will have to keep learning from each new attack. I can assure you that a lot of information and training is now flowing to those of us on the front lines in our communities. We'll do our best.


----------



## Jarnhamar

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> Can we all at least agree that it was a hate crime?


if he was targeting Muslims for the sake of being Muslims then I think that would fall under the definition of hate crime for sure.

It's essentially an attack committed by an identifiable group right?

Let me ask you this. Should we consider attacks against non-Muslims by Muslims hate crimes? An almost crate-Blanche if you will?  The term Muslim denotes someone who is a devout follower of Islam. I'd say the Quran has some pretty clear cut views on what to do with non-Muslims. So anyone who identifies as a follower of Islam falls under hate crime laws when committing any violent act against a non-Muslim/s?


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few more pieces of the jigsaw puzzle from the U.S. ...


> Domestic extremists tend to be much older, better educated, more affluent, more religious, and are more likely to be white than street gang members, according to a sweeping new University of Colorado Boulder study that systematically compares the groups for the first time.
> 
> The study, funded by the U.S. Department of Justice and published in the journal Justice Quarterly, also found that contrary to popular belief, U.S. gang members seldom go on to become radicalized and commit acts of terrorism.
> 
> The findings come as the Trump administration has named the large U.S. street gang MS 13 “one of the gravest threats to American public safety,” and ideologically motivated extremism remains a national concern. The authors hope the paper, and related studies, will be used to help inform policies to counter both domestic terrorism and gang participation.
> 
> "Both criminal gangs, like MS-13, and domestic extremist groups, like neo-Nazis, pose great risks for crime and violence in the United States,” said lead author David Pyrooz, an assistant professor of sociology. “This study gives us a much better statistical portrait of what such groups look like in relation to each other.”
> 
> (...)
> 
> In all, the groups showed similarities in only 10 out of 27 measures.
> 
> “Overall, these preliminary findings suggest that, on an individual level, policies and programs designed to prevent and intervene in gang membership might not translate very well to domestic extremism,” Pyrooz said. “The jury is still out for group- and community-level approaches.”
> 
> That said, the researchers did find a few compelling commonalities that draw people to both types of groups, including strong attachments to like-minded peers and poor employment history ...



_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

Only just spotted this from the NJ Department of Homeland Security & Prearedness - Google Cache version here -- also attached if link doesn't work for you...


> *Anarchist Extremists: Antifa*
> 
> Anti-fascist groups, or “Antifa,” are a subset of the anarchist movement and focus on issues involving racism, sexism, and anti-Semitism, as well as other perceived injustices.
> 
> Self-described Antifa groups have been established across the United States and in several major cities, including New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, and San Francisco. A majority of New Jersey-based anarchist groups are affiliated with the Antifa movement and are opposed to “fascism,” racism, and law enforcement. Antifa groups coordinate regionally and have participated in protests in New York City and Philadelphia. There are three loosely organized chapters in New Jersey, known as the North Jersey Antifa, the South Jersey Antifa, and the HubCity Antifa New Brunswick (Middlesex County).
> 
> In December 2016, a group known as the Antifascist Action-Nebraska engaged in a doxing campaign against a prominent member of American Vanguard, a white supremacist organization. The group published his personal information on several social media platforms and posted fliers on the University of Nebraska Omaha campus, calling for his expulsion ...



_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the U.S. justice department ...


> *Man Arrested for Trying to Detonate What He Thought was a Vehicle Bomb at Downtown Oklahoma City Bank*
> Department of Justice, U.S. Attorney’s Office, Western District of Oklahoma, Monday, August 14, 2017
> 
> Oklahoma City, Oklahoma — Jerry Drake Varnell, 23, of Sayre, Oklahoma, was arrested early Saturday morning in connection with a plot to detonate a vehicle bomb at BancFirst, 101 N. Broadway, in downtown Oklahoma City, announced Mark A. Yancey, United States Attorney for the Western District of Oklahoma.
> 
> According to a criminal complaint filed in the Western District of Oklahoma yesterday, the FBI arrested Varnell at approximately 1:00 am on August 12, 2017, after he attempted to detonate what he believed to be an explosives-laden van he had parked in an alley next to BancFirst. The complaint alleges that Varnell initially wanted to blow up the Federal Reserve Building in Washington, D.C., with a device similar to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing because he was upset with the government.
> 
> The complaint explains that after Varnell’s intentions came to the attention of law enforcement, an undercover FBI agent posed as a person who could assist him. According to the complaint, Varnell took a series of actions to advance his plot. He identified BancFirst as the target, prepared a statement to be posted on social media after the explosion, helped assemble the device, helped load it into what he believed was a stolen van, drove the van by himself from El Reno to BancFirst in downtown Oklahoma City, and dialed a number on a cellular telephone that he believed would trigger the explosion.
> 
> Varnell is charged with attempting to use explosives to destroy a building in interstate commerce. If convicted, he would face a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of five years’ imprisonment. He is expected to make his initial appearance in federal court in Oklahoma City today (14 Aug 2017) at 3:00 pm.
> 
> This arrest is the culmination of a long-term domestic terrorism investigation involving an undercover operation, during which Varnell had been monitored closely for months as the alleged bomb plot developed. The device was actually inert, and the public was not in danger. "There was never a concern that our community’s safety or security was at risk during this investigation," said Kathryn Peterson, Special Agent in Charge of the FBI in Oklahoma. "I can assure the public, without hesitation, that we had Varnell’s actions monitored every step of the way."
> 
> U.S. Attorney Yancey said: "I commend the devoted work of the FBI and our state law enforcement partners in ensuring that violent plots of this kind never succeed."
> 
> The investigation was conducted by the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force, including members from the Oklahoma City FBI; Homeland Security Investigations, part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security; the Oklahoma City Police Department; the Edmond Police Department; the Oklahoma Highway Patrol; the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs; and the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. The FBI worked in conjunction with BancFirst during the investigation. Oklahoma District Attorney Angela Marsee, of District 2, also provided assistance. The case is being prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Matt Dillon, with assistance from the Justice Department’s Counterterrorism Section.
> 
> Reference is made to court records for further information. The public is reminded that this complaint is only an allegation and that Varnell is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


More here (FOX News), here (Breitbart), here (_Toronto Sun_), here (PDF of criminal complaint filed via scribd.com) and here (Google News "Jerry Varnell FBI").


----------



## jollyjacktar

I hope he doesn't see the sun and sky outside of an jail exercise yard for many, many decades.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Only just spotted this from the NJ Department of Homeland Security & Prearedness - also attached if link doesn't work for you...
> 
> 
> 
> *Anarchist Extremists: Antifa*
> 
> Anti-fascist groups, or “Antifa,” are a subset of the anarchist movement and focus on issues involving racism, sexism, and anti-Semitism, as well as other perceived injustices ...
Click to expand...

And now, for the other side of the coin, also from NJ DHS - copy also attached in case link doesn't work for you ...


> *The Face of White Supremacy in 2017*
> _Traditional White Supremacist Organizations Attempt to “Rebrand”_
> 
> To appeal to new audiences susceptible to its radical messaging, the national white supremacist movement has tried to deemphasize hate symbols and attacks against non-white communities. These organizations have “rebranded” since at least last year, when they took a more high-profile role with conferences and rallies, official statements, and recruitment efforts ...



_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

QC keeping an eye on right-wing militias.  original in French - Google Translation below:


> *Coiteux says watch closely armed militias of extreme right*
> Pierre Saint-Arnaud, The Canadian Press, MONTREAL, 12 Sept 2017
> 
> The Minister of Public Security, Martin Coiteux, is very aware of the emergence of armed militias of far right in Quebec.
> 
> Recent reports have highlighted the presence of these groups, including the organization of the "Three Percenters", an overtly Islamophobic and anti-state group that is particularly active in Alberta and whose members are heavily armed.
> 
> This organization is beginning to manifest itself in Quebec as well, a situation that "challenges" the Government of Quebec, according to the Minister of Public Security.
> 
> Coiteux said Tuesday at a press conference announcing new flood relief measures last spring that these groups are under police surveillance, as "any group that could potentially pose a risk to the safety of citizens ".
> 
> The minister added that, beyond this police reality, his government would be "always intolerant" against these groups "who advocate the exclusion of certain people and who have messages of hatred towards groups ".
> 
> According to him, these groups are a direct threat to democracy, diversity and inclusion.
> 
> Mr. Coiteux warned that the state will not hesitate to "use the police" if illegal actions are taken, but that besides security issues, its government will defend the common values ​​of Quebec society.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The Face of White Supremacy in 2017
> Traditional White Supremacist Organizations Attempt to “Rebrand”



This summer, in Toronto, white supremacists were allowed to congregate at a public library.

In an email to the library, Auschwitz survivor Nathan Leipciger, whose entire family was killed by the Nazis, wrote "it is unimaginable that the Toronto Public Library should provide a platform for hatred and bigotry in our wonderful multicultural city." 

Mayor John Tory and city councillors also called for the event to be cancelled.

The media showed up. CP24 gave a Holocaust denier more than 5 unbroken minutes of live airtime.

There was no violence, but it was much reported in the news,
https://www.google.ca/search?rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&q=toronto+library+%22white+supremacist%22&oq=toronto+library+%22white+supremacist%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...4280.4280.0.4601.1.1.0.0.0.0.108.108.0j1.1.0.foo%2Cersl%3D1%2Cfett%3D1%2Cewh%3D0%2Cnso-enksa%3D0%2Cnso-enfk%3D1%2Cnso-usnt%3D1%2Cnso-qnt-npqp%3D0-1%2Cnso-qnt-npdq%3D0-45%2Cnso-qnt-npt%3D0-09%2Cnso-qnt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mnp%3D0-045%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mxp%3D0-1125%2Cnso-unt-npqp%3D0-15%2Cnso-unt-npdq%3D0-25%2Cnso-unt-npt%3D0-06%2Cnso-unt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mnp%3D0-0075%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mxp%3D0-0525.1..0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0.vxqgXS7VXaM

Also,

Signs in Toronto urge white people to join ‘alt-right’
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/11/14/signs-in-toronto-urge-white-people-to-join-alt-right.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from the _Washington Post_:
> 
> 
> 
> The “Crusaders” knew they wanted to kill Muslims — and with luck, use the “bloodbath” to ignite a religious war — but for months they couldn’t settle on a plan.
> 
> The easiest way would be to grab guns, go to the predominantly Somali-Muslim apartment complex they’d been surveilling and start kicking in doors, court documents said. They would spare no one, not even babies.
> 
> In the end, they decided to set off bombs similar to the one Timothy McVeigh used in 1995 to kill 168 people in Oklahoma City. They planned to strike after the Nov. 8 election, investigators said ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


[url=https://www.stripes.com/news/us/transcripts-detail-plot-to-bomb-somali-refugees-in-kansas-1.490555#.WdI_DLjwmi5]Some of the latest on this one via AP...


> Three men accused of conspiring to bomb a Kansas mosque and an apartment complex housing Somali refugees also allegedly discussed killing the refugees' white landlord because he rented to Muslims, a move prosecutors say was meant to ensure the attack fully conveyed their anti-Muslim message.
> 
> Details of the alleged plot emerged in government filings in advance of an upcoming detention hearing Wednesday for Gavin Wright. His attorney has argued that Wright was unaware his co-defendants intended to actually carry out the attack, portraying him as a lonely man desperate to find friends after moving to Liberal, a city along southwestern Kansas' border with the Oklahoma Panhandle.
> 
> But prosecutors countered Wednesday with court filings that include transcripts of profanity-laced recordings that paint a more damning picture of Wright and a splinter group of the militia Kansas Security Force that came to be known as "the Crusaders" — based on the name "Crusaders 2.0" that they gave to themselves on a phone messaging app.
> 
> Prosecutors say the defense mischaracterizes the danger Wright presents if freed before trial. They allege that he manufactured and tested the homemade explosives and hosted group meetings at his business, G&G Mobile Home Center, where authorities later found explosives ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Guilty  (highlights mine) ...*1* -- These are the _federal_ charges he's been found guilty of - there could be more:More on this guy here (usual Wikipedia GIGO caveats apply).
> 
> 
> 
> The federal jury1 of 10 women and two men who found Dylann Roof guilty of federal hate crimes Thursday in the killings of nine African-Americans at a historic Charleston church now must wait more than two weeks for the trial’s next phase.
> 
> Jurors on Jan. 3 will begin to hear evidence about whether to give the death penalty or life without parole to the 22-year-old self-avowed white supremacist from Columbia ...
Click to expand...




			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Death is what he deserves.


 :nod: ...


> *Charleston church shooter sentenced to death*
> _Roof was convicted last month on 33 federal charges, including hate crimes_
> The Associated Press Posted: Jan 10, 2017 4:50 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 10, 2017 4:55 PM ET
> 
> Dylann Roof has been sentenced to death for killing nine black church members in Charleston, S.C.
> 
> He is the first person to get the death penalty for federal hate crimes.
> 
> The jury reached a decision after about three hours of deliberations.
> 
> Earlier Tuesday, Roof threw away a chance to plead for his life, telling jurors: "I still feel like I had to do it."
> 
> Roof walked to the podium less than three metres from the jury box with a yellow sheet of paper. He put it down and looked past jurors for about 30 seconds before beginning to read off the page ...


----------



## mariomike

Adding to the Newsroom. 

If interested in the article, click on the link.

QUOTE

Jan. 27, 2018

Prosecutors say a terror suspect was ‘brainwashed’ by far-right voices online. Can you blame the people he read? 
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2018/01/27/prosecutors-say-a-terror-suspect-was-brainwashed-by-far-right-voices-online-can-you-blame-the-people-he-read.html
A series of recent criminal cases are again raising the question of how the spread of hateful or radical views can lead to violence. If the debate sounds familiar, it is. 

U.K. prosecutors on Tuesday said a London terror suspect was “brainwashed” by right-wing personalities and online material — including from a Canadian outlet — in the weeks before he allegedly drove a van into Muslim worshippers, killing one.

Earlier this month, a man threatened to shoot CNN employees to fight the network his president mercilessly targets — “Fake news. I’m coming to gun you all down,” a male voice said in a telephone call, according to documents unsealed this week. 

And in Canada, a country will on Monday mark the one-year anniversary of a mass shooting at a Quebec City mosque that killed six — an attack in which the suspect was reportedly a fan of French Front National leader Marine Le Pen’s xenophobic views. 

END QUOTE


----------



## AbdullahD

I guess these times will be known as the time of "echo chambers and ignorance", even though we have access to all the information we could ever want.

Brainwashing? In today's age that takes work imo with so much info and counter arguments available to become that hateful it takes dedication.

Heartbreaking


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I wonder if it is coincidental that, while information seems to be unlimited today, knowledge and wisdom also seem to be in the shortest supply in human history.

Is there an inverse relationship, I wonder?


----------



## Jarnhamar

UK dodged a bullet (or car?) by banning this Canadian Christian right wing extremist terrorist from entering the UK. 

Good catch gentlemen.

Lauren Southern Breaks Silence On Her Arrest" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9Kzkgd-GLrk


----------



## jollyjacktar

What bullshit.


----------



## AbdullahD

Markuz ul-Islam recieved hate message from a fringe group.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/hate-mail-sent-edmonton-mosque-183308597.html


----------



## Jarnhamar

Did they happen to rip a girls hajib off and cut her hair as well?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Pretty nice of them to put the UCP logo on their anonymous threatening letter, just to narrow down the suspect pool.


----------



## AbdullahD

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Pretty nice of them to put the UCP logo on their anonymous threatening letter, just to narrow down the suspect pool.



I was more intrigued by "The Clann"

https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/2019/01/31/whats-in-a-name-albertas-extremist-groups-splinter-over-how-they-should-spread-their-message.html

Their Facebook group
https://www.facebook.com/odinsheathens/



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Did they happen to rip a girls hajib off and cut her hair as well?



Had to look up the Hijab thing, just because one person cries wolf does not mean an issue does not exist. Anecdotally I can tell you and swear to the truth of it, because it happened to me, that things such as this letter happen in Canada. 

Unless I missed a different reference for the hijab comment? I was and am alarmed by this alleged offence and before posting it I did some small due diligence to see if any legitimacy could be found for it. Now maybe it hit closer to home because not more then three months ago I had someone direct comments to me about "how my kind are not welcome here and I should leave".

So maybe it is me, but it feels legitimate to me. If it isn't, then it is a serious problem of another kind. But ignoring radicalization and extremism in certain communities, simply because some members of targeted communities cry wolf is not wise.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I was more intrigued by "The Clann"



They all sure do seem obsessed with wolves. Nerds. 




> Had to look up the Hijab thing, just because one person cries wolf does not mean an issue does not exist.



You're right. Fake stories about hate crimes, assault, racisim, rape, doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. 

What it means is that people need to learn the facts before launching, like our pm did with the hajib girl. 

Is THIS story real? You seem to believe it is, maybe you're right too. Personally it seems a little fishy to me. Falls in that "too perfect to be true". The only thing missing was someone's signature.  Did the (convieniently) named group also post about this on their social media? Since they went  to the trouble of making a letter and using their own name you'd expect them to want credit for it and brag about it on their FB page and such, right? 



This could be from the hate group. 
Or it could be from whomever the letter targeted in an attempt to set up the hate group and play the victim. 
It could be Liberals trying to fan 'Conservatives are racist' flames (a favorite insult for them) close to election time. 
It could be Conservatives trying to implicate Liberals behind it suggesting the Liberals are framing the Conservatives because its close to election time.
Could be a kid screwing around.


----------



## AbdullahD

Before I posted it, I took a tour of the page I listed here and perused other similar pages.

I found comments such as;
-**** Islam
-**** fake news (in regards to good acts down by a Syrian refugee)
-**** the UN

I also found the expected rhetoric regarding Islam, that would very easily lead to the demonization of Islam and Muslims etc etc etc. 

Now I will admit yes, it does seem a touch odd but given the Facebook page I do not think it is outside the realm of reality. Maybe not all members of their movement feel like those who allegedly posted this as well.

Any rate I guess we wait and see what the RCMP find and we will know the truth of it.

Abdullah


----------



## The Bread Guy

For the record, here's what the party is saying ...


> ... “The UCP and Jason Kenney have been clear in denouncing this hatred and bigotry,” it reads. “This hateful note is in no way authorized or associated with the UCP (anyone can unfortunately paste an image into a document).” ...


More in attached screen capture from Twitter.  Barring evidence to the contrary, I don't believe the party would be dumb enough to even THINK of this kind of thing.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... This could be from the hate group.
> Or it could be from whomever the letter targeted in an attempt to set up the hate group and play the victim.
> It could be Liberals trying to fan 'Conservatives are racist' flames (a favorite insult for them) close to election time.
> It could be Conservatives trying to implicate Liberals behind it suggesting the Liberals are framing the Conservatives because its close to election time.
> Could be a kid screwing around.


Another option:  it could be an angry lone wolf (politics:  who knows?) radicalized by _something_ out there.

I look forward to what the cop shop has to say ...


----------



## CBH99

I have a gut feeling this letter is connected to the group of young white men that went to a Mosque last week, in Edmonton also.  5 of them stood outside taunting and insulting people coming and going, while some of them went inside to "observe" and "only use the washroom" - despite several gas stations and restaurants in the same immediate vicinity.  

Just speculation is all.  Funny how a group of men (calling themselves some ridiculous name, can't remember) - show up, stand outside and cause trouble, go inside to intimidate and threaten, then tell the police they were 'just using the washroom' and 'there to learn about Islam'.... while wearing their white supremacy crap clothing.

Then less than a week later, a letter appears at another Mosque in the same city.  A city that, for the most part, isn't prone to these sorts of things.  


Just a gut feeling is all.   :2c:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just out today from the NJ Office of Homeland Security & Preparedness ...


> *Background*
> 
> Anarchism is the belief that society should exist absent of “oppressive” governments, laws, police, or any other authority. Anarchist extremists advocate violence in furtherance of this idea, typically focusing on sub-movements such as anti-racism, anti-capitalism, anti-globalism, and environmental extremism.
> 
> Anarchist extremists, or those subscribing to the ideology that condones violence and the use of force, do not have a central leadership and lack organizational hierarchy. These extremists are event-driven and often take advantage of otherwise legal protests to conduct violent counter-protests, destroy public and private property, and attack law enforcement.
> 
> Common attack targets, chosen for their symbols of capitalism and government, include commercial infrastructure and the financial sector. Vandalism and arson are the most common attack types.
> 
> A majority of New Jersey-based anarchist extremists are affiliated with Antifa and focus on issues of racism, immigration, and other perceived social injustices. There are three loosely organized chapters in New Jersey, known as North Jersey Antifa, South Jersey Antifa, and HubCity Antifa based in New Brunswick (Middlesex County).
> 
> *Threat to New Jersey: Moderate*
> 
> Anarchist extremists will mobilize in response to issues they believe are unjust, carry out criminal and violent acts during otherwise First Amendment-protected events and protests, and target perceived enemies. Throughout 2018, anarchist extremists were actively engaged in criminal activities in the tri-state region, resulting in at least 20 arrests ...


More @ link or in attached PDF of full summary.

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some new analysis from the NJ Office of Homeland Security & Preparedness ...


> *Militia Extremists*
> 
> Background
> 
> Militia extremists view the federal government as an existential threat to the rights and freedoms of Americans. They judge armed resistance as necessary to preserve these rights and justify the use of violence to counter perceived threats or violations to the US Constitution.
> 
> The movement gained national attention following standoffs with federal agents in the early 1990s at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, and Waco, Texas. These confrontations provided the inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 that killed 168 individuals and injured more than 680 others.
> 
> Since 2017, militia extremists have shifted focus from anti-government issues, including standoffs with the federal government, to confronting illegal immigration and perceived threats. While the militia movement has historically been decentralized, several groups have formed in recent years with a structured hierarchy and national leadership.
> 
> (...)
> 
> *Threat to New Jersey: Moderate
> 
> There is currently a limited amount of militia extremist activity within New Jersey; however, militia extremists continue to participate in violent protests across the United States and threaten Muslim populations throughout the region.* ...


More @ link or in attached NJDHSP one-pager

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

More open-source info from the analysts @ NJ's DHS & Preparedness ...


> *Sovereign Citizen Extremists*
> 
> Background
> 
> Sovereign citizen extremists throughout the United States view federal, state, and local governments as illegitimate. They also assert they are not subject to questioning or arrest by law enforcement, paying taxes or fines, complying with summonses, or possessing official licenses. Sovereign citizen extremists have engaged in counterfeiting, verbal and written harassment, unlawful property occupation scams, and financial fraud.
> 
> The Moorish Nation, a sovereign citizen extremist group that splintered from the black nationalist movement, asserts that it is the original inhabitant of the United States and is entitled to self-governing status, giving its members rights that predate the Constitution.
> 
> In 2018, sovereign citizen extremists accounted for three of the six ideologically motivated attacks against law enforcement nationwide. Two incidents occurred during routine policing activities and did not demonstrate indicators of preplanning; the third attack was the result of booby traps set in anticipation of visits from law enforcement.
> 
> *Threat to New Jersey: Moderate
> 
> Sovereign citizen extremists in New Jersey often rely on “paper terrorism,” such as filing fraudulent liens against public officials or self-identifying in court paperwork, but can resort to violence when challenged by law enforcement ...*


More @ link or in attached one-pager

_- mod edit to fix link -_


----------



## The Bread Guy

More from the NJ DHS ...


> *White Supremacist Extremists*
> 
> Background
> 
> White supremacist extremists believe in the inherent superiority of the white race and seek to establish dominance over non-whites through violence.
> 
> There are five major subgroups within the white supremacist extremist movement: neo-Nazis, racist skinheads, groups that emerged countering African-American civil and equal rights, Christian Identity members, and prison gangs.
> 
> White supremacist extremists employ a variety of recruitment tactics, including leafleting, leveraging social media, and participating in social events. Additionally, over the last three years, white supremacist extremists have hosted conferences, organized rallies, and established think tanks to forward their agenda.
> 
> _*Threat to New Jersey: Moderate
> 
> White supremacist extremists in New Jersey are actively spreading their ideologies, attempting to intimidate minorities, and committing low-level crimes. *_In 2018, at least six different white supremacist extremist organizations were actively operating in New Jersey ...


More @ link or in attached one-pager.


----------



## RangerRay

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Sovereign Citizen Extremists



These guys scare me more than any other extremist group out there.


----------



## Jarnhamar

RangerRay said:
			
		

> These guys scare me more than any other extremist group out there.



Why?


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More open-source info from the analysts @ NJ's DHS & Preparedness ...More @ link or in attached one-pager





			
				RangerRay said:
			
		

> These guys scare me more than any other extremist group out there.





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why?





> July 30, 2014
> National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism
> 
> Sovereign citizen movement perceived as top terrorist threat
> https://www.start.umd.edu/news/sovereign-citizen-movement-perceived-top-terrorist-threat



_- mod edit to fix one of the links -_


----------



## Jarnhamar

Some of the FBI's recent successes against them.



> -In Sacramento, two sovereign citizens were *convicted of running a fraudulent insurance scheme*. Operating outside state insurance regulatory guidelines, the men set up their own company and sold “lifetime memberships” to customers, promising to pay any accident claims against their “members.” The company collected millions of dollars, but paid out very few claims. More
> -In Kansas City, three sovereign citizens were *convicted of taking part in a conspiracy using phony diplomatic credentials.* They charged customers between $450 and $2,000 for a diplomatic identification card, which would bestow upon the holder “sovereign” status—meaning they would enjoy diplomatic immunity from paying taxes and from being stopped or arrested by law enforcement. More
> -In Las Vegas, four men affiliated with the sovereign citizen movement were *arrested by the Nevada Joint Terrorism Task Force on federal money laundering, tax evasion, and weapons charges. *The investigation involved an undercover operation, with two of the suspects allegedly laundering more than a million dollars from what they believed was a bank fraud scheme



Guess the weapons charges could be dangerous, especially if they're being sold to dudes like this.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/man-arrested-at-extremist-muslim-new-mexico-compound-was-training-kids-to-commit-school-shootings-documents


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Some of the FBI's recent successes against them ...


Good catch that - thanks for sharing.  Here's some more from the applicable NJ DHS report from earlier this year ...


> - Gregory Rodvelt, a sovereign citizen, *set booby traps throughout his Oregon property in September, injuring an FBI agent*. While searching the property, the agent activated a trap connected to a pre-positioned shotgun that discharged, shooting the agent in the leg. In April, authorities arrested Rodvelt in Arizona after he reportedly brandished a handgun. He initially refused to cooperate with police, leading to a three-hour standoff.
> - In June, Matthew Wright *used an armored vehicle to block traffic on a bridge near the Hoover Dam in Nevada*. Following his arrest, police found weapons, ammunition, and explosives in the vehicle. Wright used sovereign citizen rhetoric in letters mailed to several federal agencies, including the FBI and CIA.
> - In May, David Wolosin *opened fire on two police officers, critically injuring one*, after they responded to a complaint of a man teaching his 3-year-old child how to drive. Wolosin, a self-identified sovereign citizen, was killed in the shootout.
> - Tierre Guthrie, a Moorish sovereign citizen, *shot three police officers, killing one*, while being served a warrant for his arrest in February 2018. Guthrie was killed in the shootout, and his friends and family reported he had espoused anti-government ideas in the weeks preceding the shooting.


----------



## Jarnhamar

That's pretty crazy. More dangerous than I thought for sure, I didn't see that.

I was watching something on Net flicks called Doomsday preppers and the way some of these people think is pretty wacky.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I was watching something on Net flicks called Doomsday preppers and the way some of these people think is pretty wacky.


Even if you allow for reality shows showing the _*most*_ extreme cases, have to agree.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I was watching something on Net flicks called Doomsday preppers and the way some of these people think is pretty wacky.



John Goodman played a prepper, "I have a collection of films on DVD and VHS cassette... make sure you put 'em back when you're done with 'em. We're gonna be down here for a very long time."  

See also,

Survival and Prepping  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123966.0
4 pages.


----------



## RangerRay

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why?



Probably because in my line of work, I am more likely to run into these clowns than any other extremist out there.

Because of their twisted ideology based on legal fiction sold to them by sophisticated grifters, these guys believe that the laws of our society do not apply them and do not recognise the authority of law enforcement and the courts.  As such, encounters with these guys are at best difficult; at worst very deadly.  Law enforcement officer in Canada and the US have been assaulted and murdered by these guys during traffic stops and even by-law incidents.  When encounters do not turn violent, sovereigns (or freemen) usually engage in harassment and "paper terrorism" against any official they feel slighted by.  Good luck selling your house in a timely fashion if one of these assholes puts a lien on your house because you gave them a ticket.

A lot of people are drawn to this ideology because to the uneducated and the paranoid, it looks like a legit way to get out of paying taxes, debts and alimony.  Why pay for a driver's license and registering your vehicle when you can declare yourself "sovereign" or a "freeman on the land" and get out from under the thumb of "the man"?  And since "the man" can't hassle you, you can fight back if he does.  Or so the gurus tell the gullible.

These guys are far more common than you would think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement


----------



## FJAG

This is a key decision out of the Alberta QB which deals with this movement and it's nonsense.

It's a hundred and fifty some odd pages of heavy reading but is the most comprehensive case in Canada dealing with these very problematic issues.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy

FJAG said:
			
		

> This is a key decision out of the Alberta QB which deals with this movement and it's nonsense.
> 
> It's a hundred and fifty some odd pages of heavy reading but is the most comprehensive case in Canada dealing with these very problematic issues.
> 
> https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html
> 
> :cheers:


Thanks for sharing the Canadian angle on this - much appreciated!


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in another discussion, will reply here,



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Attacks on house of worships have effected not only mosques, but churches as well.



And synagogues and Jewish communal organizations,

The deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the United States was only four months ago, in Pittsburgh, PA,

Referring to Central American migrant caravans and immigrants, the alleged killer posted on Gab * shortly before the attack that, "HIAS ** likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I can't sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I'm going in."

* "Gab has been described as "extremist friendly" to neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right."

** The Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society ( HIAS ) is a Jewish American non-profit organization that provides humanitarian aid and assistance to refugees.

Regarding the suspect,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting#Suspect
"started out as staunch conservatism transitioned into white nationalism"

That massacre came a year after the "Unite the Right" tiki-torch and swastika rally, 

“Jews will not replace us”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12sjwk9FBE


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Adding to the Newsroom.
> 
> If interested in the article, click on the link.
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> Jan. 27, 2018
> 
> Prosecutors say a terror suspect was ‘brainwashed’ by far-right voices online. Can you blame the people he read?
> https://www.thestar.com/news/world/analysis/2018/01/27/prosecutors-say-a-terror-suspect-was-brainwashed-by-far-right-voices-online-can-you-blame-the-people-he-read.html
> A series of recent criminal cases are again raising the question of how the spread of hateful or radical views can lead to violence. If the debate sounds familiar, it is.
> 
> U.K. prosecutors on Tuesday said a London terror suspect was “brainwashed” by right-wing personalities and online material — including from a Canadian outlet — in the weeks before he allegedly drove a van into Muslim worshippers, killing one.
> 
> Earlier this month, a man threatened to shoot CNN employees to fight the network his president mercilessly targets — “Fake news. I’m coming to gun you all down,” a male voice said in a telephone call, according to documents unsealed this week.
> 
> And in Canada, a country will on Monday mark the one-year anniversary of a mass shooting at a Quebec City mosque that killed six — an attack in which the suspect was reportedly a fan of French Front National leader Marine Le Pen’s xenophobic views.
> 
> END QUOTE



Sorry to be digging up a necro post, but I realized the results of this particular trial were never posted here. The man who drove the van into the worshippers exiting a mosque in London was convicted of both murder and attempted murder, and the matter was treated by the courts as a terrorist offense for purpose of sentencing. Its similar to how in Canadian law a violent offense can be considered a 'terrorist activity' for sentencing purposes if it meets certain criteria. The judge's written reasons for sentencing are pretty clear and blistering. Four and a half pages, so it's a pretty quick read. It includes a succinct summary of the attacker's background, and his rapid path to radicalization. There's also a hint in there to how the sort of 'target hardening' that has become routine at major public events probably preventing him from mounting a much worse attack based on his original plan earlier that same day.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/r-v-osborne-sentencing-remarks.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/01/finsbury-park-van-attacker-darren-osborne-found-guilty-murder-makram-ali


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Sorry to be digging up a necro post, but I realized the results of this particular trial were never posted here. The man who drove the van into the worshippers exiting a mosque in London was convicted of both murder and attempted murder, and the matter was treated by the courts as a terrorist offense for purpose of sentencing. Its similar to how in Canadian law a violent offense can be considered a 'terrorist activity' for sentencing purposes if it meets certain criteria. The judge's written reasons for sentencing are pretty clear and blistering. Four and a half pages, so it's a pretty quick read. It includes a succinct summary of the attacker's background, and his rapid path to radicalization. There's also a hint in there to how the sort of 'target hardening' that has become routine at major public events probably preventing him from mounting a much worse attack based on his original plan earlier that same day.
> 
> https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/r-v-osborne-sentencing-remarks.pdf
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/01/finsbury-park-van-attacker-darren-osborne-found-guilty-murder-makram-ali


Thanks for the update -- here's the decision in case the link doesn't work.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some more analysis from New Jersey's DHS ...


> *Black Separatist Extremists
> 
> Background*
> 
> Black separatist extremists are individuals or groups that seek to establish an independent nation for people of African descent through force or violence. They claim superiority over whites, are typically anti-Semitic, and oppose integration and interracial marriage.
> 
> The intent and capability of black separatist groups vary by chapter and region. At least two groups are active in New Jersey: the New Black Panther Party (NBPP) and the Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ (ICGJC). The NBPP portrays itself as a militant modern expression of the original Black Panther Party; however, representatives of the original group have denounced the “exploitation of the party’s name and history” and have called the organization “a black racist hate group.” The ICGJC justifies its rhetoric with religious ideology and believes its members are the true Hebrew descendants. NBPP and ICGJC promote violent and hate-based rhetoric against law enforcement, government officials, Jews, and whites.
> 
> _*Threat to New Jersey: Low
> 
> Black separatist extremist organizations in New Jersey are disorganized and continue to focus on activities related to narcotics, illegal weapons, and financial crimes*_ ...


More @ link or attached one-pager if link doesn't work for you.


----------



## Cloud Cover

??? ... organizations in xxxx are disorganized .... 

They are ready to govern!!


----------



## The Bread Guy

From NJ's DHS ...


> Domestic Terrorism in 2018
> 
> There were 32 domestic terrorist attacks, disrupted plots, threats of violence, and weapons stockpiling by individuals with a radical political or social agenda who lack direction or influence from foreign terrorist organizations (across the U.S.) in 2018. NJOHSP defines domestic terrorism as violence committed by individuals or groups—including anti-government, race-based, religious, and single-issue extremist ideologies—associated primarily with US-based movements.
> 
> All information was derived from publicly available sources.


Map/breakdown in attached visuals & one-page PDF here.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Alberta:

https://globalnews.ca/news/5197423/new-report-combating-hate-crime-alberta/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/alberta-study-extremism-radicalism-online-hate-terrorism-1.5108262

https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.4393171


----------



## Colin Parkinson

RangerRay said:
			
		

> Probably because in my line of work, I am more likely to run into these clowns than any other extremist out there.
> 
> Because of their twisted ideology based on legal fiction sold to them by sophisticated grifters, these guys believe that the laws of our society do not apply them and do not recognise the authority of law enforcement and the courts.  As such, encounters with these guys are at best difficult; at worst very deadly.  Law enforcement officer in Canada and the US have been assaulted and murdered by these guys during traffic stops and even by-law incidents.  When encounters do not turn violent, sovereigns (or freemen) usually engage in harassment and "paper terrorism" against any official they feel slighted by.  Good luck selling your house in a timely fashion if one of these assholes puts a lien on your house because you gave them a ticket.
> 
> A lot of people are drawn to this ideology because to the uneducated and the paranoid, it looks like a legit way to get out of paying taxes, debts and alimony.  Why pay for a driver's license and registering your vehicle when you can declare yourself "sovereign" or a "freeman on the land" and get out from under the thumb of "the man"?  And since "the man" can't hassle you, you can fight back if he does.  Or so the gurus tell the gullible.
> 
> These guys are far more common than you would think.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement



Let them be free, but all the government services aren't, so they pay a toll everytime to use a government built road, bridge, etc


----------



## The Bread Guy

From Jersey's DHS - also attached as PDF if link doesn't work for you ...


> *Conspiracy Theory Likely Leads to Extremist Violence *
> 
> White supremacist extremists will likely cite “white genocide” as justification for violence against certain religious communities being the only option to save the white race. Since 2018, there have been no New Jersey-based white supremacist extremist attacks; however, groups and individuals within the State continue to promote the conspiracy in person and online.
> 
> On April 27, John Earnest attacked a synagogue in Poway, California, resulting in one death and three injuries. Prior to the shooting, Earnest stated online that Jewish people are responsible for the planned genocide of the European race, that he is willing to “sacrifice [his] future…for the sake of  people,” and that he “would die a thousand times over to prevent the doomed fate that the Jews have planned for the  race.”
> 
> On March 15, Brenton Tarrant attacked two mosques in New Zealand, resulting in 51 deaths and 49 injuries. Throughout his manifesto, Tarrant referenced his beliefs that mass immigration from non-European countries and cultural assimilation will result in the racial and cultural replacement of European people. Additionally, Tarrant stated he carried out the attacks against the mosques because he viewed them as a “large group of invaders…that seek to occupy  peoples land and ethnically replace  people.”
> 
> On October 27, Robert Bowers shot and killed 11 people and injured six others at a synagogue in Pittsburgh after allegedly yelling, “all Jews must die.” Hours prior to the shooting, Bowers posted online that a Jewish organization “likes to bring invaders in that kill  people” and that he “can’t sit by and watch  people get slaughtered.”


----------



## mariomike

Quoted from Reply #147,


> The white genocide conspiracy theory is the belief that there is a Jewish plot to promote cultural assimilation, immigration, and interracial marriage between European and non-European countries that will result in the extinction of the white race.



That may explain the "Jews will not replace us" chant.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Let them be free, but all the government services aren't, so they pay a toll everytime to use a government built road, bridge, etc.


 :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from NJ's DHS on Friday …


> On July 6, counter-protest groups, including anarchist extremists, plan to mobilize against a “Demand Free Speech” rally the Proud Boys and several alt-right personalities are attending in Washington, DC. At this time, there are no overt calls for violence from either side; however, physical altercations have occurred at similar events in the past …


More @ link and in attached if link doesn't work.

… and what unfolded …

_"Antifa tries to disrupt ‘Demand Free Speech’ event in DC, reports say"_ (Fox News)
_"Far-right extremists Proud Boys outnumbered by counter-protesters at Washington, DC, rally"_ (USA Today)
_"Antifa clash with police, harass Trump supporters outside Demand Free Speech rally"_ (Washington Times)
_"Antifa Unleashed: Black-Clad Protesters Clash With Proud Boys, Attack Newspaper Boxes In D.C. Demonstration"_ (Daily Wire)
_"Right, left wing groups conduct competing D.C. rallies"_ (United Press International wire service)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Usual "initial report" caveats apply ...

_*"Armed 69-year-old ‘antifascist’ shot dead after firebombing immigration centre"*_ (_The Independent_, UK)
_*"Man killed at Tacoma immigrant detention center jumped on cop in 2018 protest"*_ (_Tacoma News-Tribune_)
_*"Vashon Island man sent manifesto* before he was killed at detention center"*_ (KIRO-TV, Seatte)
*** - Copy of what appears to be attacker's "final statement" attached (source)

- op edit to fix KIRO link -


----------



## The Bread Guy

_*"El Paso shooting leaves 20 dead, 26 injured; investigators probing potential 'nexus to hate crime' "*_ (FOX News)
_*"El Paso Walmart shooting: Suspect could face hate crime prosecution"*_ (_El Paso Times_)
_*"Horror in El Paso another in a long list of mass killings plaguing the nation"*_ (NBC News)
_*"Minutes Before El Paso Killing, Hate-Filled Manifesto Appears Online"*_*** (_New York Times_)
_*"The El Paso Shooting and the Gamification of Terror"*_ (bellingcat, OSINT site)
_*"2019 El Paso shooting"*_ (Wikipedia - usual caveats apply)
More via Google News
*** - Attached (source:  archive.org)


----------



## Retired AF Guy

As if the El Paso shooting wasn't enough: At least 9 dead, 26 injured in mass shooting in downtown Dayton, Ohio


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Here is a link to a FBI Intelligence Bulletin on how fringe conspiracy theories may motivate extremists to commit acts of violence.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> _*"The El Paso Shooting and the Gamification of Terror"*_   (bellingcat, OSINT site)


As Evans notes in his final paragraph, "Until law enforcement, and the media, treat these shooters as part of a terrorist movement no less organized, or deadly, than ISIS or Al Qaeda, the violence will continue. There will be more killers, more gleeful celebration of body counts on 8chan, and more bloody attempts to beat the last killer’s 'high score'." 

Bringing that perception about will be a virtually impossible challenge when a large segment of society dismissively accepts that "there's good people on both sides" of radicalized violence.  :brickwall:




			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Here is a link to a FBI Intelligence Bulletin on how fringe conspiracy theories may motivate extremists to commit acts of violence.


For anyone interested, Ghayda Hassan (L'Université du Québec à Montréal -- UQAM) is leading some very comprehensive research on the prevention of radicalization and violent extremism.


----------



## observor 69

Dayton and El Paso gun rampages: 251 mass shootings in the US in 216 days

As gunfire ripped through America in an unprecedented 24 hours, a bleak milestone in a nation pocked by gun violence was marked: There have been 251 mass shootings in 2019.

A shooting spree early Sunday at an entertainment district in Dayton, Ohio – which left at least nine dead and 16 hurt – notched an even darker statistic: It occurred on the 216th day of the year, meaning there have been more mass shootings than days so far this year. 

That incident followed a rampage Saturday at a Walmart jammed with back-to-school shoppers in El Paso, Texas, which left 20 dead and 26 injured. 

The two massacres became the nation's latest mass shootings as defined by the Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organization that provides online public access to information about gun-related violence.

The archive categorizes mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people were shot or killed, not including the shooters. So far this year, more than 520 people have died in mass shootings and at least 2,000 have been injured, according to the data.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/03/el-paso-walmart-shooting-250th-mass-shooting-this-year/1913486001/


----------



## brihard

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Dayton and El Paso gun rampages: 251 mass shootings in the US in 216 days
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/03/el-paso-walmart-shooting-250th-mass-shooting-this-year/1913486001/



Once you wrap your head around one simple thing, this makes more sense:

America is ok with mass shootings.

That’s not to say that an individual American is ok with them - though logically, many must be. It’s not to say that particular individual legislators, justices, activists, or leadership figures in public life are ok with mass shootings. Many are. But in aggregate, America as a society, as a political and judicial system, and as a public policy machine has collectively decided that regular mass shootings are an acceptable cost to their way of life.

The slight risk any given individual runs of being in the wrong time and wrong place is an acceptable one. It’s deemed to be better than a generational- and national-scale strategy for such things as mental health, gang violence, violent radicalization and, yes, gun control,

America remains the only country in the developed world where this not just regularly but constantly happens. Anywhere else in the developed world, these events are terrifyingly exceptional, and generally lead to things being done. In America we get the same vacuous platitudes, the same ‘thoughts and prayers’, and the same ‘it’s too soon to talk about...’, trusting that a fresh stack of warm and bloodied bodies will perpetually reset that clock.

It’s disgusting and pathetic. And in the grand scheme of things, it’s a choice they made.


----------



## dapaterson

If ISIS members had shot up Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton the discussion would be very different.


----------



## RocketRichard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If ISIS members had shot up Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton the discussion would be very different.


Hear hear. I will state the obvious and there are very, very serious problems with mass shootings and gun violence in the USA. As others have stated here if Sandy Hook did not change anything I don’t know what will...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Journeyman

If a White guy is pulling the trigger, they're a "lone wolf," or misunderstood, or have some extremely rare mental disorder.
If a Black or Hispanic is the shooter, they must have a Democrat mayor.   op:


----------



## brihard

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If a White guy is pulling the trigger, they're a "lone wolf," or misunderstood, or have some extremely rare mental disorder.
> If a Black or Hispanic is the shooter, they must have a Democrat mayor.   op:



The manifesto allegedly published by the El Paso shooter makes it explicitly clear what his political grievances are. And much of the language is very recognizable, and awkwardly attributable. Kind of uncomfortable when he lights up a Wal Mart, apparently targeting as many hispanics as possible, and has published a shrill screed on the ‘Hispanic invasion’ of Texas, and the evils of mixed-race breeding. Again, if the manifesto is in fact attributable to him (which seems to be the working LEO theory right now), then every aspect of that shooting was generally predictable. Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.



			
				RomeoJuliet said:
			
		

> Hear hear. I will state the obvious and there are very, very serious problems with mass shootings and gun violence in the USA. As others have stated here if Sandy Hook did not change anything I don’t know what will...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



An unfortunate logical extension of what I wrote a bit earlier about America being ok with mass shootings is unfortunately that, yes, America is ok with a bunch of dead kids. It’s the cost of freedom or something.


----------



## RocketRichard

Brihard said:
			
		

> The manifesto allegedly published by the El Paso shooter makes it explicitly clear what his political grievances are. And much of the language is very recognizable, and awkwardly attributable. Kind of uncomfortable when he lights up a Wal Mart, apparently targeting as many hispanics as possible, and has published a shrill screed on the ‘Hispanic invasion’ of Texas, and the evils of mixed-race breeding. Again, if the manifesto is in fact attributable to him (which seems to be the working LEO theory right now), then every aspect of that shooting was generally predictable. Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.
> 
> An unfortunate logical extension of what I wrote a bit earlier about America being ok with mass shootings is unfortunately that, yes, America is ok with a bunch of dead kids. It’s the cost of freedom or something.


Concur with all that you’ve said. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomahawk6

The rhetoric here is unnecessary. These tragedies did not happen in Canada. The Texas shooter WAS NOT a religious extremist but a guy who hated Mexicans. I guess his manifests still available online but it should be taken down. As yet we have not been informed what triggered the Ohio shooter, maybe a copycat.El Paso and Dayton are home to large military communities. Sadly the Democrats are calling for the banning of assault type weapons. We used to have a ban now many places limit magazine capacity. There has been alot of discussion about mental health awareness and these troubled folks post online on facebook or twitter. If they are a threat then someone should notify police. Sorry for the rant.


----------



## tomahawk6

The shooter has been identified as 24 year old Connor Betts. There are alot of images online but his motives are unknown. Thankfully police got to him in a minute or so.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9649965/ohio-shooting-dayton-connor-bretts/


----------



## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The shooter has been identified as 24 year old Connor Betts. There are alot of images online but his motives are unknown. Thankfully police got to him in a minute or so.
> 
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9649965/ohio-shooting-dayton-connor-bretts/



Think about that for a second. Trained and equipped officers got to and stopped the threat in about a minute- they were already on the ground.

He was STILL able to kill nine and wound more than twenty, some of whom will have life altering physical injuries. Then there’s the undoubtably pathological injuries to victims, responders, and their families.

And that was from being able to unload a gun into a crowd for less than a minute.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.

Maybe.  All of those have been around for a long time.  What sets our time apart is publication.  The words that matter most are the ones that grant publicity to killers.

I doubt Americans are OK with mass shootings.  In the past 25 years the old political centre has emptied out, so it's difficult to agree on a mix of solutions.  The resulting lack of []action might be mistaken for indifference.


----------



## YZT580

Perhaps getting rid of the publicity would help.   |If no one wrote about it other than as a simple statement with no names, I wonder if it would reduce the number of thrill seekers.  Simple question, no hidden agenda


----------



## The Bread Guy

I'll go a step further in some cases ...


			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> If ISIS members people with certain foreign-sounding names had shot up Gilroy, El Paso and Dayton the discussion would be very different.





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> If a White guy is pulling the trigger, they're a "lone wolf," or misunderstood, or have some extremely rare mental disorder.
> If a Black or Hispanic is the shooter, they must have a Democrat mayor.   op:


Or, put in more graphic format ...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.



If what you're trying to underhandedly say is this is Mr. Trumps fault, then its a fail...…I don't believe this just started 3 years ago.

Media is the number one problem.....even the most pathetic loser gets to think he can have his face plastered all over the TV like some kind of star.  If you're cute maybe even the cover of People.  Second is some parts of the Constitution is tired, old, and frail.   Written when it took everybody a minute or so to reload, not when you can fire off hundreds of bullets in a minute.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If it matters, I quoted "Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter."; I did not first write it.


----------



## Brad Sallows

This suggestion is worth considering, thus:

"there are now SEVERAL KINDS of mass attacks these days:
1) political terrorists
2) crazy people
3) shitposting nihilists"

How they break down across racial or ethnic boundaries isn't the most important factor.  And the best solutions for each are unlikely to be equally useful for all.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If it matters, I quoted "Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter."; I did not first write it.



Sorry quoted wrong post


----------



## tomahawk6

The El Paso shooter is looking at the death penalty if Texas prosecutes. Federally we and State level we now have hate crime laws. This incident has me re-evaluating my own safety when I am out and about. I have a firearm carry license but rarely go out in public armed. That will change because if you run into one of these nuts you come to the fight as you are without the time to run to the car.


----------



## RocketRichard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The El Paso shooter is looking at the death penalty if Texas prosecutes. Federally we and State level we now have hate crime laws. This incident has me re-evaluating my own safety when I am out and about. I have a firearm carry license but rarely go out in public armed. That will change because if you run into one of these nuts you come to the fight as you are without the time to run to the car.


This exactly what I don’t want to happen in Canada. People fearing so much for their own safety that they feel compelled to carry a gun in public. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dapaterson

When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Yeah.  That happens all the time in the US.  Shoot-on-sight is the prevailing doctrine.


----------



## tomahawk6

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Yeah.  That happens all the time in the US.  Shoot-on-sight is the prevailing doctrine.



In some places you might be right but I don't show off my weapon. I have been stopped by police and they have asked if I had anything that might hurt them.I reply no officer. On those occaisions I wasnt armed and the police didnt ask to search my vehicle or my person they just took me at my word. I think having the right attitude is best if you have to deal with the police.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.



I'd like to see your stats on that. I've held concealed carry, for a few states and your assertions don't square with the occurrences.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> In some places you might be right but I don't show off my weapon. I have been stopped by police and they have asked if I had anything that might hurt them.I reply no officer. On those occaisions I wasnt armed and the police didnt ask to search my vehicle or my person they just took me at my word. I think having the right attitude is best if you have to deal with the police.



I think Brad was being sarcastic :dunno: but I agree with you.


----------



## Remius

dapaterson said:
			
		

> When police come out to respond to these incidents, having a weapon in your hand means the cops will assume you are an active shooter and neutralize you.



It probably does not help the situation. But there are other factors that can lead to that happening.  

There were two high profile cases in 2018 where that’s happened.  In the mall shooting case the police cite the fact that so many people had their gun shots out as to the reason they shot a black man who had a legal permit and had his gun out.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46350307


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> The manifesto allegedly published by the El Paso shooter makes it explicitly clear what his political grievances. Words matter. Political discourse matters. The things people say to gain and hold power matter.



One republican agrees with that sentiment.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/nebraska-state-gop-senator-republican-party-is-complicit-in-enabling-white-supremacy/


----------



## Journeyman

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The rhetoric here is unnecessary. These tragedies did not happen in Canada. The Texas shooter WAS NOT a religious extremist but a guy who hated Mexicans.


       ???

a.  Much of what's posted on this site is unnecessary.
b.  Equally, when did there have to be a Canadian nexus for any post (other than those specifically discussing Canadian military, politics, etc)?
c.  To explain the thread's title, "Religious/Extremist Terrorism," the slash routinely means "and/or" -- there's no requirement to post only on religious terrorism.  

/explaining the obvious


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If what you're trying to underhandedly say is this is Mr. Trumps fault, then its a fail...…I don't believe this just started 3 years ago.
> 
> Media is the number one problem.....even the most pathetic loser gets to think he can have his face plastered all over the TV like some kind of star.  If you're cute maybe even the cover of People.  Second is some parts of the Constitution is tired, old, and frail.   Written when it took everybody a minute or so to reload, not when you can fire off hundreds of bullets in a minute.



No Bruce, a ‘fail’ is when it has become quite routine for kids to get shot and killed in these sorts of massacres. A ‘fail’ is when any arsehole with a nurtured grudge and an easily acquired semiautomatic rifle can lay waste to a Wal Mart, or a school, or a garlic festival, or what have you. A ‘fail’ is when a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings, chooses not to really do anything about it.

The responsibility is always with the person pulling the trigger. They are the directly culpable party. However there is nothing innate or biological about hatred. That’s learned and cultivated behaviour. A couple days ago a guy went hunting Hispanics. His alleged manifesto characterized them as ‘invaders’. While his views were likely formed before the current presidency, we nonetheless have in Mr. Trump a figure who emboldens and incites this kind of rhetoric. He has made it ok in some circles to hate again, and has normalized it. He and his sycophants absolutely wear some responsibility for the social and political trends that we see. America almost had white supremacy beat in most practical terms. In the past couple years we’ve seen a resurgence and an emboldening- and then get told there are ‘good people on both sides’.

We’ve had the white nationalism discussion on this group before and there’s been some loud and angry denial of the problem from some circles. Well, here it is, starkly in our faces, with a mass murder and resultant terrorism/hate crimes investigation. Absolutely, politicians that deliberately stoke those flames bear some responsibility.



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> One republican agrees with that sentiment.
> 
> https://www.mediaite.com/news/nebraska-state-gop-senator-republican-party-is-complicit-in-enabling-white-supremacy/



See also this op-Ed published by George W. Bush’s former speechwriter on the dangers of racism being trotted out by the administration: 

https://lacrossetribune.com/opinion/columnists/michael-gerson-the-return-of-america-s-cruelest-passion/article_0d1c3d53-9054-5725-b9eb-946e5ff5eeed.html

(Disclosure- yes, I know Gerson is now a columnist and often publishes for the Washington Post. Those who are so inclined may spare the effort of reading it and considering the opinions presented, and just do the fingers-in-the-ears ‘fake news’ thing.)


----------



## Eaglelord17

A couple points to bring some facts into the discussion instead of emotion

Firstly, the USA has roughly the same long gun death rate per capita as Canada despite the difference in our laws. You are more likely to be beaten to death by someones fists in the USA than shot by a AR-15.

Secondly, gun control would likely not have made much of a difference. If they had Canada's laws odds are those same people would have been able to get the same firearms or very similar firearms as the ones used in the attacks. If you don't have a criminal background or a history of recorded mental illness then there's no issue in getting a licence.

Thirdly, for the '251' mass shootings in the USA most of those are gang violence, done to other gangs with handguns. Handguns also by a significant majority the preferred weapon of murder as it is easily concealed, cheaper, and easy to dispose of. If you want the actual number for real mass shooting of this type I prefer the 110 since 1982 that Mother Jones has tabulated. 

Fourthly, its interesting to note that all the proposed controls target long guns which ultimately aren't very practical for criminals. They are effective at resisting governments though. The only criminal that prefers them is these mass shooters, who ultimately aren't seeking to survive the confrontations, hence the choice in weapon. 

Fifthly, it is arguable the 2nd Amendment is more important now than ever. Countries can very quickly slide into a dictatorship with unprecedented powers thanks to all the technology around. Citizens that are armed prevent dictatorships. Yes there are people killed by firearms every year, but when firearms are banned the murder rate doesn't magically drop to nothing, just the method of murder changes. It doesn't even have to be the government which brings in gun control to have it abused. In the 1920s the Weimar governments of Germany instuted gun control, fast forward to the 1930s and one of the first things the Nazis did was ban ownership completely and go door to door collecting firearms preventing the people from resisting. Russia, China, Cambodia, etc. Venezuela in 2014 banned firearms ownership, now they under a dictatorship and starving unable to resist. 

Look at all the horrible things done in the last century without the technology that is available now. The stuff the Stazi used to do in East Germany is absolutely terror inducing and that was without even having anything close to modern tech. And you can say well the USA had never had a dictatorship, and that is true. The reason for that could very well be because they are armed to prevent it. 

Its a sad situation, technology hasn't changed for firearms in about 70 years (the AR-15 is a 50s design), yet within the last 20 citizens have. I personally will blame social media, increased intolerance in society, and technology for these events. I have my theories as to why these people become so disillusioned, but I haven't fully formulated them so I am not going to speak of them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world/us_and_canada&link_location=live-reporting-story
^ BBC charts on US firearms
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007201
^ Canada's homicides by firearms
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
^USA homicide by type

So conclusion is you are actually pretty safe in the USA, as long as you keep out of the gang areas your just as safe as Canada. Its actually the safest its ever been in the USA, crime rates have been dropping just like the rest of the Western world. You need to address why people are killing others, not how. Remove the reasons and you end up with a pretty peaceful society even if everyone is armed (look at the Swiss for a example of that).


----------



## Brad Sallows

>a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings

That is unlikely to be true (ie. it's a very low-odds hypothesis).  John Lott (who is strongly pro-gun-rights) has found that the US is not at the front of the pack, even among developed countries, for rates of deaths, or rates of incidents.  Specifically, he found that the research by Adam Lankford severely under-counted mass shootings outside the US.  (Lankford's research was widely cited for years, and probably still is.)  It is true that the rate of incidents (by any measure, and there are several) in the US has risen sharply in the past three years.  And to further confound the theories some hold to, the correlation between ownership and incidents is weak.

It is unlikely that Trump is significantly responsible.  Everyone one who contributes some heat to boil the pot bears responsibility, and there are many more stressors than Trump.

Suppose we had a political map (1, 2, N dimensions - doesn't matter) and mapped everyone into it.  Some people will be further from the centre than others (hold extreme positions); some will be more easily destabilized to more extreme positions (moving further outward); some will be more easily destabilized to violence.  (Being "extremist" is not synonymous with "bad" - for example, libertarians would hold an extreme position, but I doubt we would find either that libertarians are easily swayed from their beliefs or that they are violence prone.)

Now consider the people who are extreme, prone to becoming more extreme when things don't go their way, and have a low "black flag" threshold.  (HL Mencken - Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.")

In the case of white supremacists, Trump must have some influence, but I think it is tiny.  There are so many other provocations - cities declaring themselves sanctuaries, calls for ICE to be abolished, various public statements by politicians and candidates that amount to something close to calls for open or practically unenforced borders, ditto calls for welfare benefits, malcontents focusing only on the shortcomings of the US, etc.  All of these are likely to make the angry people angrier.  Good luck measuring the relative contributions of the stressors.

So, yes, Trump should STFU.  But so should so very many other people, if the aim is to turn down the heat.  And note that this is not a moral judgement; it is recognition that everything in public discourse can contribute to radicalization regardless of what is intended.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >a country that, pretty uniquely in the developed world, has an epidemic of mass shootings
> 
> That is unlikely to be true (ie. it's a very low-odds hypothesis).  John Lott (who is strongly pro-gun-rights) has found that the US is not at the front of the pack, even among developed countries, for rates of deaths, or rates of incidents.  Specifically, he found that the research by Adam Lankford severely under-counted mass shootings outside the US.  (Lankford's research was widely cited for years, and probably still is.)  It is true that the rate of incidents (by any measure, and there are several) in the US has risen sharply in the past three years.  And to further confound the theories some hold to, the correlation between ownership and incidents is weak.
> 
> It is unlikely that Trump is significantly responsible.  Everyone one who contributes some heat to boil the pot bears responsibility, and there are many more stressors than Trump.
> 
> Suppose we had a political map (1, 2, N dimensions - doesn't matter) and mapped everyone into it.  Some people will be further from the centre than others (hold extreme positions); some will be more easily destabilized to more extreme positions (moving further outward); some will be more easily destabilized to violence.  (Being "extremist" is not synonymous with "bad" - for example, libertarians would hold an extreme position, but I doubt we would find either that libertarians are easily swayed from their beliefs or that they are violence prone.)
> 
> Now consider the people who are extreme, prone to becoming more extreme when things don't go their way, and have a low "black flag" threshold.  (HL Mencken - Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.")
> 
> In the case of white supremacists, Trump must have some influence, but I think it is tiny.  There are so many other provocations - cities declaring themselves sanctuaries, calls for ICE to be abolished, various public statements by politicians and candidates that amount to something close to calls for open or practically unenforced borders, ditto calls for welfare benefits, malcontents focusing only on the shortcomings of the US, etc.  All of these are likely to make the angry people angrier.  Good luck measuring the relative contributions of the stressors.
> 
> So, yes, Trump should STFU.  But so should so very many other people, if the aim is to turn down the heat.  And note that this is not a moral judgement; it is recognition that everything in public discourse can contribute to radicalization regardless of what is intended.



I agree that there are many ‘sources of heat’ on this, no doubt there. I don’t agree with underselling Trump’s influence; he’s the president, and he is an ideological leadership figure. Do I think he entered the presidency intending to stoke these particular flames? No, I do not. Do I think he saw quickly that it works, and that he is self centered enough to make use of it and the consequences be damned? Absolutely. That’s the most logical explanation for the blatant pandering to the far right that we’ve seen.

Certainly, there are many others that need to pipe down too. Equally certainly, this is just one form of extremism that contributes to major acts of violence. El Paso is the most graphic and recent, though in the past year or two there have been other mass shootings that can be laid firmly at the feet of white nationalists with very conventional far right views.

I absolutely cannot agree with your suggestion that America doesn’t have an exceptional problem with mass shootings. If we exclude all the gang and domestic violence and stick strictly to situations where someone is trying to rack up a high score, anywhere else this happens is hugely exceptional. I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples. In America there are several a year. Mainland Europe can obfuscate this a bit with some of their incidents- but that’s generally a case of Islamist terrorism, and this thread is the non-Musim edition of terrorism/extremism.

Does extremism with equal vitriol exist elsewhere? Sure, to an extent it does. But nowhere else in the developed world is it fuelling mass killings with this regularity. I’m not going to go down the gun control rabbit hole, there are other threads and that would be a huge waste of our time here. Suffice it to say that America is exceptional, bordering on unique, in the magnitude and manifestation of this problem.

Remembering that this is a discussion of extremism and terrorism, I’ll go back to what I said: racist, white supremacist / white nationalist extremism is a growing problem. A bunch of us have been saying this for a while, now it’s just damned hard to ignore unless you pretend those hispanic kids didn’t just get shot up in El Paso.

A number of the recent mass killings have been more ‘nihilist’ in flavour, as someone alluded to above- usually white male in his teens or early 20s, single, socioeconomically an underachiever, and mad at the world. In El Paso, though, we see some of these same factors buttressed with blatant and explicit white supremacy. His manifesto (I just found and read it) is short and to the point. He cites the racist screed ‘The Great Replacement’ as an ideological inspiration. He views himself as contributing to ‘an incentive’ for hispanics to leave. He deplores race mixing... It’s a blatantly racist screen. He disclaims being called a ‘white supremacist’, but his actions and words obviously belie that. He states his views were formed pre-Trump (which I believe), and then disclaims as ‘fake news’ what he correctly anticipated many of us would say about drawing that link. That, I don’t buy. Views formed before adulthood still don’t lead to mass murder unless they’re reinforced and enabled by a permissive cultural environment.

The scary part? Near the end he gives advice on seeking soft targets, not wasting one’s life an effort hitting heavily protected targets, and very much posits his actions as the start of a fight against the Hispanic replacement of whites, and the (in his mind) inevitable resultant swing of Texas and other states to the democrats. This is going to be compelling to some. I fear we’re going to see this happen again.


----------



## Journeyman

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> A couple points to bring some facts into the discussion instead of emotion


Some _very_  cherry-picked 'facts'  -- from being more likely beaten to death than shot with an AR-15;  conveniently ignoring the total firearm deaths in your source (just over 11,000 shooting deaths vs 656 beating deaths)... to arguing that gang-related mass shootings should be discounted... to suggesting that everyone need be armed to avoid some inevitable dictatorship.

I'd hate to see you argue from emotion.    op:


----------



## Brad Sallows

>I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples.

US: ~330M people.
NO: ~5.3M
NZ: ~5M

Absolute numbers are almost without meaning.  Use rates, preferably per capita.  The US is not exceptional; it isn't even at the top of the lists.

I doubt Trump makes conscious use of whatever white supremacists want to hear.  Trump's remarks of all types are purely opportunistic based on who he is trying to score points against at a particular moment in time - he doesn't switch between shooting from the lip and cunningly deployed rhetoric.  And, many of his remarks are repeated badly out of context, which doesn't help.

White supremacist groups in the US may be increasing right now; in the longer term, they have clearly declined over decades.  Are they more active, or is that a mistaken impression fed by media exposure in the internet age?  It's imprudent to conclude that these problems exist because of Trump rather than some of the factors which helped lead to Trump's election.

Why is a clear understanding of Trump's degree of influence important?  Because we can't solve a problem if we don't correctly identify the source.  Examples: if extremists care more about Democratic policy statements and/or opinion writers opining that the day of majority-white America is over than they do about Trump's trolling/insults, reforming Trump doesn't solve the problem.

If Trump reforms tomorrow and becomes a gracious and wise leader, the mad-hatters will do what they always do: move him into the part-of-the-conspiracy column.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The El Paso shooter was a right wing racist who killed 22 and injured 20+ more. Lots of people will argue obviously _somehow _Trumps fault.

The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others. The Dayton shooter was also a self-proclaimed leftist and socialist who hated Trump, praised the man who attacked the U.S. immigration detention centre, condemed Trumps immigration policies, expressed support for ANTIFA groups retweeting their tweets and expressed support for Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

Also Trumps fault?


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others.



The El Paso shooter made his motive clear. 

Toledo  Dayton police have not yet established a motive. He killed his sister. Was she the intended target, and the others simply "collateral damage"?


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >I think of the mass shooting on the Norwegian island; or the Christchurch shooting, or a similarly rare few overseas examples.
> 
> US: ~330M people.
> NO: ~5.3M
> NZ: ~5M
> 
> Absolute numbers are almost without meaning.  Use rates, preferably per capita.  The US is not exceptional; it isn't even at the top of the lists.
> 
> I doubt Trump makes conscious use of whatever white supremacists want to hear.  Trump's remarks of all types are purely opportunistic based on who he is trying to score points against at a particular moment in time - he doesn't switch between shooting from the lip and cunningly deployed rhetoric.  And, many of his remarks are repeated badly out of context, which doesn't help.
> 
> White supremacist groups in the US may be increasing right now; in the longer term, they have clearly declined over decades.  Are they more active, or is that a mistaken impression fed by media exposure in the internet age?  It's imprudent to conclude that these problems exist because of Trump rather than some of the factors which helped lead to Trump's election.
> 
> Why is a clear understanding of Trump's degree of influence important?  Because we can't solve a problem if we don't correctly identify the source.  Examples: if extremists care more about Democratic policy statements and/or opinion writers opining that the day of majority-white America is over than they do about Trump's trolling/insults, reforming Trump doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> If Trump reforms tomorrow and becomes a gracious and wise leader, the mad-hatters will do what they always do: move him into the part-of-the-conspiracy column.



Yes, I'm aware of rates-based statistics as used in criminology/epidemiology. Generally we use rates per 100,000 population.

Problem is, to compare rates you need meaningful sample sizes. When a given country generally only has one of such instances in a multi-year span, there's insufficient sample for any decent statistical comparison. The U.S. of course does not have this problem. A very non-exhaustive list on Wiki actually does a pretty good job of filtering out the bulk of shootings that are gang violence related; most of what's on here is what we typically are speaking of when we refer to 'mass shootings' by someone with a grudge, outside of the gang violence context. It's surprising how many happen that barely make the national/international news- again, a stinging indictment of just how common these are. The fact that no other developed country has such prevalence of mass shootings relative to population as to allow for a meaningful comparison doesn't help paint a brighter picture for the U.S. at all.

It's easy to say 'absolute numbers are almost meaningless'. Probably a bit harder to look the families of the victims in the eyes and say the same thing. The absolute numbers, coarse and difficult to compare as they may be, are still atrocious. The raw 'absolute numbers' still paint a picture of a mass shooting problem in the U.S. that's unparalleled in other developed countries. While the bulk are not politically motivated, certainly some of them are- two problems finding overlap, with a lot of blood being shed as a result.

These are, of course, just the individuals who make it to the point of pulling a trigger. The current FBI director testified before the Senate judiciary committee back in late July. One of the interesting facts that dropped was that as of about that time, FBI had arrested nearly a hundred "domestic terrorists", which he characterized as residents motivated to terrorism NOT in the context of either foreign terrorist organizations, or homegrown violent extremists who were radicalized along Islamist ideology. He also said that the number of domestic terrorists arrested was about the same as those motivated by overseas terror networks, and that the bulk of the domestic terrorists were along white supremacist ideological lines. To get to the point of arrests and charges, credible acts of violence had to be pretty far along in the planning/preparation stage. Understandably, most of these cases won't make the news simply because police catch someone in the course of plotting something, and nothing graphic or sensational enough occurs to command the air time. But it again highlights that this problem exists and that violent manifestations of white nationalist/supremacist ideology are thriving in some circles.

We obviously disagree about the ideological clout of the president, and his influence in inspiring/inciting actual action. I'm by no means claiming that he is a sole cause or even a necessary cause for this kind of violence. I am saying that he's normalizing the sentiments and making the situation worse. When you talk about 'hispanic invaders', and then someone parroting those same words goes hunting hispanics, that's not something you can easily walk back. An individual act of violence is not 'Trump's fault', nor have I ever claimed it to be. The shooter retains responsibility. The president, however, remains accountable for his words and his actions. Both are contributing to increased hate in America, which in turn is contributing in some cases to ideologically motivated violence.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The Dayton shooter killed 9 and injured 26 others. The Dayton shooter was also a self-proclaimed leftist and socialist who hated Trump, praised the man who attacked the U.S. immigration detention centre, condemed Trumps immigration policies, expressed support for ANTIFA groups retweeting their tweets and expressed support for Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.



The latest from Canadian Press: 



> Classmates: Ohio shooter kept a 'hit list' and a 'rape list'
> 
> 15 hrs ago
> 
> DAYTON, Ohio — High school classmates of the gunman who killed nine people early Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, say he was suspended for compiling a "hit list" of those he wanted to kill and a "rape list" of girls he wanted to sexually assault.
> 
> This undated photo provided by the Dayton Police Department shows Connor Betts.
> The accounts by two former classmates emerged after police said there was nothing in the background of 24-year-old Connor Betts that would have prevented him from purchasing the .223-calibre rifle with extended ammunition magazines that he used to open fire outside a crowded bar. Police on patrol in the entertainment district fatally shot him less than a minute later.
> 
> Both former classmates told The Associated Press that Betts was suspended during their junior year at suburban Bellbrook High School after a hit list was found scrawled in a school bathroom. That followed an earlier suspension after Betts came to school with a list of female students he wanted to sexually assault, according to the two classmates, a man and a woman who are both now 24 and spoke on condition of anonymity out of concern they might face harassment.
> 
> "There was a kill list and a rape list, and my name was on the rape list," said the female classmate.
> 
> A former cheerleader, the woman said she didn't really know Betts and was surprised when a police officer called her cellphone during her freshman year to tell her that her name was included on a list of potential targets.
> 
> "The officer said he wouldn't be at school for a while," she said. "But after some time passed he was back, walking the halls. They didn't give us any warning that he was returning to school."
> 
> Bellbrook-Sugarcreek Schools officials declined to comment on those accounts, only confirming that Betts attended schools in the district.
> 
> The discovery of the hit list early in 2012 sparked a police investigation, and roughly one-third of Bellbrook students skipped school out of fear, according to an article in the Dayton Daily News.
> 
> It's not clear what became of that investigation. Chief Michael Brown in Sugarcreek Township, which has jurisdiction over the Bellbrook school, did not return calls Sunday about whether his agency investigated the hit list.
> 
> Though Betts, who was 17 at the time, was not named publicly by authorities at the time as the author of the list, the former classmates said it was common knowledge within the school he was the one suspended over the incident.
> 
> Drew Gainey was among those who went on social media Sunday to say red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.
> 
> "There was an incident in high school with this shooter that should have prevented him from ever getting his hands on a weapon. This was a tragedy that was 100% avoidable," he wrote on in a Twitter post on Sunday.
> 
> Gainey did not respond to messages from AP seeking further comment, but the name on his account matches that of a former Bellbrook student who was on the track team with Betts.
> 
> Former Bellbrook Principal Chris Baker said he "would not dispute that information" when the Daily News asked him Sunday about the hit list suspension. He declined to comment further to the newspaper and the AP was unable to reach him.
> 
> Betts had no apparent criminal record as an adult, though if he had been charged as a juvenile that would typically be sealed under state law.
> 
> "There's nothing in this individual's record that would have precluded him from getting these weapons," Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl said Sunday.
> 
> Not everyone who went to school with Betts had bad things to say. Brad Howard told reporters in Bellbrook on Sunday that he was friends with Betts from preschool through their high school graduation.
> 
> "Connor Betts that I knew was a nice kid. The Connor Betts that I talked to, I always got along with well," Howard said.
> 
> Mike Kern, a customer at the gas station where Betts used to work in Bellbrook, said he hasn't seen Betts in about a year.
> 
> "He was the nicest kid you could imagine," always friendly, Kern said. "I never heard him talk about violence, say a racist word, or anything like that."
> 
> He said they sometimes played trivia at a bar near the gas station, and Betts often knew the answers on questions about current events and pop culture. "He was real smart," Kern said. "He knew all the answers."
> ___
> Biesecker reported from Washington. AP reporters Reese Dunklin in Dallas, John Seewer in Bellbrook and Michael Kunzelman in Silver Spring, Maryland, contributed to this report.
> Michael Biesecker And Julie Carr Smyth, The Associated Press



This is initial reporting on the shooter. More info will become available as time progresses. 

Link contains photos, including weapon (AR-15) and drum magazines used in shooting.


----------



## mariomike

Sometimes a shooting spree is simply a shooting spree. They're not always political.

eg: A disgruntled employee. 

A sniper in a university clock-tower. Or Las Vegas.

I'm old enough to remember when "Going postal" was a popular term. But, I guess "the day of the gun toting disgruntled postman shooting up the place went out with the Macarena."


----------



## dimsum

Former President Obama's response.







https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/1158453079035002881/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1158453079035002881&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatlantic.com%2Fideas%2Farchive%2F2019%2F08%2Fobama-is-still-acting-like-hes-the-president%2F595540%2F


----------



## The Bread Guy

1)  New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security's first take on the El Paso shooting attached.

2)  What #POTUS45 had to say about both shootings (text also attached in case link doesn't work) ...


> *REMARKS BY PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THE MASS SHOOTINGS IN TEXAS AND OHIO*
> Diplomatic Reception Room
> 10:08 A.M. EDT
> 
> THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. My fellow Americans, this morning, our nation is overcome with shock, horror, and sorrow. This weekend, more than 80 people were killed or wounded in two evil attacks.
> 
> On Saturday morning, in El Paso, Texas, a wicked man went to a Walmart store, where families were shopping with their loved ones. He shot and murdered 20 people, and injured 26 others, including precious little children.
> 
> Then, in the early hours of Sunday morning in Dayton, Ohio, another twisted monster opened fire on a crowded downtown street. He murdered 9 people, including his own sister, and injured 27 others.
> 
> The First Lady and I join all Americans in praying and grieving for the victims, their families, and the survivors. We will stand by their side forever. We will never forget.
> 
> These barbaric slaughters are an assault upon our communities, an attack upon our nation, and a crime against all of humanity. We are outraged and sickened by this monstrous evil, the cruelty, the hatred, the malice, the bloodshed, and the terror. Our hearts are shattered for every family whose parents, children, husbands, and wives were ripped from their arms and their lives. America weeps for the fallen.
> 
> We are a loving nation, and our children are entitled to grow up in a just, peaceful, and loving society. Together, we lock arms to shoulder the grief, we ask God in Heaven to ease the anguish of those who suffer, and we vow to act with urgent resolve.
> 
> I want to thank the many law enforcement personnel who responded to these atrocities with the extraordinary grace and courage of American heroes.
> 
> I have spoken with Texas Governor Greg Abbott and Ohio Governor Mike DeWine, as well as Mayor Dee Margo of El Paso, Texas, and Mayor Nan Whaley of Dayton, Ohio, to express our profound sadness and unfailing support.
> 
> Today, we also send the condolences of our nation to President Obrador of Mexico, and all the people of Mexico, for the loss of their citizens in the El Paso shooting. Terrible, terrible thing.
> 
> I have also been in close contact with Attorney General Barr and FBI Director Wray. Federal authorities are on the ground, and I have directed them to provide any and all assistance required -- whatever is needed.
> 
> The shooter in El Paso posted a manifesto online consumed by racist hate. In one voice, our nation must condemn racism, bigotry, and white supremacy. These sinister ideologies must be defeated. Hate has no place in America. Hatred warps the mind, ravages the heart, and devours the soul. We have asked the FBI to identify all further resources they need to investigate and disrupt hate crimes and domestic terrorism -- whatever they need.
> 
> We must recognize that the Internet has provided a dangerous avenue to radicalize disturbed minds and perform demented acts. We must shine light on the dark recesses of the Internet, and stop mass murders before they start. The Internet, likewise, is used for human trafficking, illegal drug distribution, and so many other heinous crimes. The perils of the Internet and social media cannot be ignored, and they will not be ignored.
> 
> In the two decades since Columbine, our nation has watched with rising horror and dread as one mass shooting has followed another -- over and over again, decade after decade.
> 
> We cannot allow ourselves to feel powerless. We can and will stop this evil contagion. In that task, we must honor the sacred memory of those we have lost by acting as one people. Open wounds cannot heal if we are divided. We must seek real, bipartisan solutions. We have to do that in a bipartisan manner. That will truly make America safer and better for all.
> 
> First, we must do a better job of identifying and acting on early warning signs. I am directing the Department of Justice to work in partisan -- partnership with local, state, and federal agencies, as well as social media companies, to develop tools that can detect mass shooters before they strike.
> 
> As an example, the monster in the Parkland high school in Florida had many red flags against him, and yet nobody took decisive action. Nobody did anything. Why not?
> 
> Second, we must stop the glorification of violence in our society. This includes the gruesome and grisly video games that are now commonplace. It is too easy today for troubled youth to surround themselves with a culture that celebrates violence. We must stop or substantially reduce this, and it has to begin immediately. Cultural change is hard, but each of us can choose to build a culture that celebrates the inherent worth and dignity of every human life. That’s what we have to do.
> 
> Third, we must reform our mental health laws to better identify mentally disturbed individuals who may commit acts of violence and make sure those people not only get treatment, but, when necessary, involuntary confinement. Mental illness and hatred pulls the trigger, not the gun.
> 
> Fourth, we must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety do not have access to firearms, and that, if they do, those firearms can be taken through rapid due process. That is why I have called for red flag laws, also known as extreme risk protection orders.
> 
> Today, I am also directing the Department of Justice to propose legislation ensuring that those who commit hate crimes and mass murders face the death penalty, and that this capital punishment be delivered quickly, decisively, and without years of needless delay.
> 
> These are just a few of the areas of cooperation that we can pursue. I am open and ready to listen and discuss all ideas that will actually work and make a very big difference.
> 
> Republicans and Democrats have proven that we can join together in a bipartisan fashion to address this plague. Last year, we enacted the STOP School Violence and Fix NICS Acts into law, providing grants to improve school safety and strengthening critical background checks for firearm purchases. At my direction, the Department of Justice banned bump stocks. Last year, we prosecuted a record number of firearms offenses. But there is so much more that we have to do.
> 
> Now is the time to set destructive partisanship aside -- so destructive -- and find the courage to answer hatred with unity, devotion, and love. Our future is in our control. America will rise to the challenge. We will always have and we always will win. The choice is ours and ours alone. It is not up to mentally ill monsters; it is up to us.
> 
> If we are able to pass great legislation after all of these years, we will ensure that those who were attacked will not have died in vain.
> 
> May God bless the memory of those who perished [DEL: in Toledo EL] . May God protect them. May God protect all of those from Texas to Ohio. May God bless the victims and their families. May God bless America.
> 
> Thank you very much. Thank you.
> 
> END 10:18 A.M. EDT


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Retired AF Guy]

Link contains photos, including weapon (AR-15) and drum magazines used in shooting.
[/quote]

Good article. Just to highlight a few things.

_Police said there was nothing in the background of 24-year-old Connor Betts that would have prevented him from purchasing an AR 15-style rifle_

Really? I wonder why that is.

-suspended years ago for compiling a "hit list" and a "rape list,"
-suspended / hit list was found scrawled in a school bathroom.
-followed an earlier suspension after Betts came to school with a list of female students he wanted to sexually assault
-Betts routinely threatened violence toward other students.
-Most people avoided him
-He would say shocking things just to get a reaction. He enjoyed making people feel scared.
-roughly a third of 900 Bellbrook students skipped school one day out of fear of a planned attack.
-on a school bus when a uniformed police officer came on board, asked for Betts by name and then escorted him off.
-red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.
-Connor seriously threatened to hurt women who rejected him, myself included



How many times have we seen this play out after a school/work/mass shooting? Shooter has a laundry list of psychopath behavior and they seem to continuously fall through the cracks.

Is this another example of the school officials and police being pressured not to lay charges because they don't want to put a kid "in the system"? Like it was alleged with Broward County?  Maybe it's time to revamp the various young offenders acts and take psycho behavior like this more seriously- as if a freaking rape list and hit list isn't serious  :facepalm:


----------



## RocketRichard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> 1)  New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security's first take on the El Paso shooting attached.
> 
> 2)  What #POTUS45 had to say about both shootings (text also attached in case link doesn't work) ...


‘May God bless those who died in TOLEDO’. sigh...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> -red flags were raised about Betts' behaviour years ago.





> Even 31 Dead Might Not Get “Red Flag” Gun Laws Passed in Ohio and Texas
> https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/7x5zmx/even-31-dead-might-not-get-red-flag-gun-laws-passed-in-ohio-and-texas
> But neither Ohio nor Texas, where 22 people died after a separate shooting in an El Paso Walmart Saturday, have what are known as “red flag” laws, which essentially allow police or relatives to ask a court to temporarily confiscate guns from people who may be dangerous to themselves or others. The shooters in both massacres, police have said, appear to have obtained their guns legally.


----------



## MarkOttawa

As for Toledo, a wonderful book set in the 1920s--_Half Magic_:



> CHILDREN'S BOOKS: Magic That Endures: Two Classic Children's Spellbinders Turn 40 [1993]
> https://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/14/books/childrens-books-magic-that-endures-two-classic-childrens-spellbinders.html













Full text of the book:
https://gutenberg.ca/ebooks/eagere-halfmagic/eagere-halfmagic-00-h.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## mariomike

Remembering the MAGA bomber ( sentenced to 20 years today ). 



> The MAGA Bomber Planned His Morning Routine Around “Fox & Friends”
> https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/wjvvzw/the-maga-bomber-planned-his-morning-routine-around-fox-and-friends





> MAGA Bomber’s Lawyers Blame Trump, Sean Hannity
> https://www.thedailybeast.com/maga-bomber-cesar-sayocs-lawyers-blame-trump-sean-hannity-for-his-radicalization


----------



## RocketRichard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some do,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States#Weapons_used
> 
> See also for weapons used,
> 
> List of mass shootings in the United States
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States#Weapons_used


Not one of the shootings on this list used a shotgun exclusively. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## YZT580

Meanwhile, while all attention was focused on these two incidents, seven people were killed and 46 others were wounded in shootings since Friday evening in Chicago.  There were two incidents of multiple shootings in that total.  So why aren't flags flying at half staff for them?  Answer:  that is a normal weekend in the summer.

That's Obama's home town yet nary a peep out of him.


----------



## mariomike

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, while all attention was focused on these two incidents, seven people were killed and 46 others were wounded in shootings since Friday evening in Chicago.



Killed in gang retaliation attacks. Not extremist terrorism.

Next weekend, it will be their gang's turn to retaliate. And so on, and so on, and so on...



Looks like Chicago's homicide rate is decreasing. Maybe the gangs are running out of enemies to kill?



> Chicago murder rate drops for second year in a row
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/31/us/chicago-murders-drop-2018/index.html





Gangs don't ussually shoot everybody all in one place, all at the same time. More spread out. Not as dramatic.

Gang shootings are not hate crimes. It's their turf war. Business related.


----------



## RocketRichard

mariomike said:
			
		

> Excuse me. Maybe you should have used that word when you asked?


Excuuuuuuuuse me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> Remembering the MAGA bomber ( sentenced to 20 years today ).


Another negative chit for Trump?


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:
			
		

> Another negative chit for Trump?



Most people would not consider it a positive. It certainly fits into the category of Extremist Terrorism.

At any rate, he starts serving his 20 years today.

Looks like he could be described as a "fervent supporter".


----------



## mariomike

FBI: 



> Anti-Government, Identity Based, and Fringe Political Conspiracy Theories Very Likely Motivate Some Domestic Extremists to Commit Criminal, Sometimes Violent Activity.
> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/local-fbi-field-office-warns-conspiracy-theory-driven-domestic-extremists-n1038441
> The assessment noted that the document is the first from the FBI to analyze conspiracies and their connection to violent acts.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the garlic festival,



> 6 Aug., 2019
> 
> FBI will open domestic terrorism investigation into Gilroy Garlic Festival shooting
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/fbi-open-domestic-terrorism-investigation-gilroy-garlic-festival/story?id=64810428


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding the garlic festival,



More info on this at this LA Times article.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-06/gilroy-garlic-festival-shooting-domestic-terrorism-probe


----------



## AbdullahD

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/norway-mosque-1.5243092

Shooting Mosques up is becoming a thing, I guess.


Abdullah


----------



## mariomike

If everything they own now and in the future can be jeopardized, it makes it much more difficult to recruit followers,



> NBC
> Aug. 12, 2019
> 
> White supremacists are being targeted by a law that took down the KKK
> https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/charlottesville-s-white-supremacists-are-being-targeted-law-took-down-ncna1041246
> Suing those responsible for hate crimes has the potential to bankrupt and dismantle the groups at the center of this violent movement.


----------



## Journeyman

mariomike said:
			
		

> If everything they own now and in the future can be jeopardized, it makes it much more difficult to recruit followers,


Sorry, but this assumes that possible recruits actually think about personal responsibility and/or consequences of their actions, whether immediate or long-term.

While even the authors acknowledge that "suing those responsible for hate crimes has the _potential_  to bankrupt and dismantle the groups," I have less faith in those embracing such hate;  if you're stupid enough to be a neo-Nazi, you're unlikely smart enough to picture future bankruptcy for your behaviour.*


* Or, clutching at their non-reality and denying responsibility, they'll whine "I wouldn't be bankrupt if those lesser non-whites had gone back to where they came from."  :


----------



## kkwd

Shots fired at an ICE office in San Antonio Texas. Possible charges are assault of a federal official.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/457265-FBI-investigating-shooting-ice-office-in-san-antonio

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/13/politics/fbi-investigating-shots-fired-ice-offices-san-antonio/index.html

It didn't turn out as bad for the shooter as the Tacoma incident. 
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/13/us/armed-man-killed-tacoma-immigration-facility/index.html


----------



## Singh47

I wanted to address the warning I received for allegedly insulting an Islamic member. I want to say that while I respect all religions, it's a patent fact that many Christian and Islamic sites are built upon those which were forcibly confiscated from others. This is not only acknowledged but many times celebrated as a victory over the heathens. Until the two most genocidal faiths in human history fess up for their crimes and the majority of the rest stop covering for them under the guise of secularism or human rights, I think it is perfectly reasonable to be wary. 

          Jews don't trust Nazis after all but the Nazi persecution ends in this lifetime, these genocidal faiths encourage and guarantee persecution to their enemies for all eternity.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Until the two most genocidal faiths in human history fess up for their crimes 

Who is competent to make that apology, and will it close the issue?


----------



## OldSolduer

Singh47 said:
			
		

> I wanted to address the warning I received for allegedly insulting an Islamic member. I want to say that while I respect all religions, it's a patent fact that many Christian and Islamic sites are built upon those which were forcibly confiscated from others. This is not only acknowledged but many times celebrated as a victory over the heathens. Until the two most genocidal faiths in human history fess up for their crimes and the majority of the rest stop covering for them under the guise of secularism or human rights, I think it is perfectly reasonable to be wary.
> 
> Jews don't trust Nazis after all but the Nazi persecution ends in this lifetime, these genocidal faiths encourage and guarantee persecution to their enemies for all eternity.



Excuse me, but your diatribe is getting old. "Poor me" 

Victimhood is counter productive.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Until the two most genocidal faiths in human history fess up for their crimes
> 
> * Who is competent to make that apology* , and will it close the issue?



Canadas prime minister comes to mind.


----------



## Singh47

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but your diatribe is getting old. "Poor me"
> 
> Victimhood is counter productive.


So is sanctimonious claptrap.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the U.S. government's Voice of America ...


> In June, Canada labeled the white supremacist group Blood & Honor and its armed branch, Combat 18, as terrorist organizations.
> 
> In announcing the move, Canada's public safety department said Blood & Honor derives its ideology from "the National Socialist doctrine of Nazi Germany" and, through Combat 18,  has carried out murders and bombings.
> 
> The designation of a white supremacist group as a terrorist organization, the latest of several by Western nations, comes as U.S. allies respond to a recent rise in violence committed by right-wing groups. But the U.S. government is powerless to take such action because of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment protections, even though it would strengthen the hand of law enforcement agencies in cracking down on extremist groups.
> 
> "A white supremacist organization is an ideology, it's a belief," assistant FBI Director Michael McGarrity testified before the House Homeland Security Committee in May. "But they're not designated as a terrorist organization."
> 
> *Charging white nationalists*
> 
> While prosecutors have successfully charged dozens of Islamic State sympathizers with providing "material support" to a foreign terrorist organization included on a government watch list, they can't bring similar charges against individual white nationalists.
> 
> But that could change if the U.S. starts adding groups such as Blood & Honor to its Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) list, experts and some lawmakers say. There are currently 68 groups on the U.S. watch list. Most are Islamist groups such as IS and al-Qaida. Not one is a white nationalist group.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Democratic Congressman Max Rose of New York is one of the proposed designation's congressional champions.
> 
> "Terrorism is terrorism, and we have to fix that," Rose said at the hearing. "And the first step, I believe, is to start establishing some of these organizations as true foreign terrorist organizations."
> 
> Some Republican members also support the idea.
> 
> "It's absolutely clear that white supremacism is the biggest problem, and we've got to go after that, and we have to address it," said Republican Congressman John Katko of New York.
> 
> ( ... )
> 
> While designating foreign white supremacist groups as FTOs would allow the FBI to use additional investigative tools, there are limits to its benefits, cautioned retired FBI agent and national security expert David Gomez.
> 
> "While I don't know if the FBI has any active investigations against organizations like Blood & Honor, it is an interesting question to ask, i.e., are the U.S. organizations taking direction from the potential [foreign terrorist organizations], or are they merely subscribing to their ideology?" Gomez said.
> 
> Labeling a group a terrorist organization for simply subscribing to a white supremacist ideology would run afoul of the First Amendment, Gomez said.
> 
> "That is the slippery slope that you have to worry about sliding down, because one man's terrorist is another man's patriotic nationalist," he said.


A bit more @ link


----------



## OldSolduer

Singh47 said:
			
		

> So is sanctimonious claptrap.


Roger . Got it.

I shall learn in time to ignore trolls like you.

Good day sir.


----------



## Singh47

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Roger . Got it.
> 
> I shall learn in time to ignore trolls like you.
> 
> Good day sir.


I'm not trolling at all pointing out a crime that is regularly ignored or washed over is not victimhood.

Too often the problems of today can be traced to the past, and the people facing those problems are derided as inferior or pushed farther away from the cultures and traditions that once held them together. 

In other words, the cultural imperialism that victimized them continues unabated sometimes under different names many times not. 

That I speak in a belligerent tone is one thing, but I do not lie. 

I also do not expect many to understand this whether due to age, disposition or ignorance. I believe they are the true victims of this imperialism of which I speak. 

It is far better to realize you are oppressed and be able to fight it than lose connection with a majority of humanity under the guise of protecting some non-existant privilege. 

I think ignorance many times arises out of fear. Fear that humanity is not as naive and good hearted as the comfortable would like to believe. Admitting a problem would somewhat become a call to action. 

This is fine let those who act for justice reap the benefits and those who stay behind enjoy the emptiness of a material existence without morality.


----------



## mariomike

FYI



> U.S. Military Issues Warning to Troops About Incel Violence at Joker Screenings
> https://io9.gizmodo.com/u-s-military-issues-warning-to-troops-about-incel-viol-1838412331
> The U.S. Army confirmed on Tuesday that the warning was widely distributed after social media posts related to extremists classified as “incels,” were uncovered by intelligence officials at the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
> 
> 'When entering theaters, identify two escape routes, remain aware of your surroundings, and remember the phrase “run, hide, fight.'


----------



## The Bread Guy

This out from a think tank - interesting bit:  lotsa these guys seem to head to Ukraine to fight for the Ukrainians …


> From Pittsburgh to Poway and Charleston to El Paso, white supremacist extremists (WSEs) pose a clear terrorist threat to the United States. And while extremist groups operating on American soil are often labeled or categorized as domestic terrorist organizations, this report will demonstrate that they maintain links to transnational networks of like-minded organizations and individuals, from Australia, Canada, Russia, South Africa, and elsewhere. The danger of terrorism is growing in the United States, just as it is elsewhere in the world, with white supremacist extremists strengthening transnational networks and even imitating the tactics, techniques, and procedures of groups like al-Qaeda and the Islamic State (IS). These networks share approaches to recruitment, financing, and propaganda, with Ukraine emerging as a hub in the broader network of transnational white supremacy extremism, attracting foreign recruits from all over the world ...


According to the study, less than 10 Canadians have headed to UKR to fight for UKR and 4 for the pro-RUS rebel side between 2014 and June 1, 2019.  This is a different ratio than some countries (Germany, Belarus, Russia, Serbia, Moldova, etc.), who've seen more heading over to fight for the pro-RUS side than the UKR side.  More on who's from where in attached map.

Key findings:


> • White supremacy extremism (WSE) is a transnational challenge—its tentacles reach from Canada to Australia, and the United States to Ukraine—but it has evolved at a different pace in different parts of the world.
> 
> • To make serious progress, the United States should consider building upon Canada and the United Kingdom’s leadership by sanctioning transnational WSE groups as foreign terrorist organizations. U.S. Departments of State and Treasury terrorist designations could hinder the travel of terrorists into the United States; criminalize support to designated individuals and groups; block the movement of assets to those designated; and allow for the Department of Justice (DOJ) to prosecute individuals for providing material support to designated groups.
> 
> • While there are crucial differences between jihadis and white supremacy extremists, there are also important similarities and particular ways these groups feed off of each other, including:  the utility and cycle of violence; use of the internet; propaganda; recruitment; financing; and the transnational nature of the networks.
> 
> • White supremacy extremist groups and individuals accrue wealth through both licit and illicit sources of finance. WSEs also accrue, move, and store their wealth through various means but as payment processors curb access to their platforms, these groups have relied on cryptocurrency or other alternatives to fiat currency.
> 
> • WSE operational tradecraft has not significantly evolved over time and remains rooted in the use of conventional weapons, especially light arms. What has changed is the speed in which social media allows for the amplification and glorification of attacks.
> 
> • The rapid expanse of social media facilitates radicalization and recruitment within the white supremacy extremist domain. Spaces in which radicalized individuals can communicate and share content enable the development of a worldwide, rapidly expanding network of white supremacy extremists.
> 
> • Recruitment and radicalization goals within white supremacy extremism remain consistent over time, despite traditional methods of spreading propaganda diverging from more modern ones. Extremists intend to expand their influence and power through a variety of recruitment tactics, new and old.
> 
> • U.S. government efforts to combat the WSE threat remain lacking. The international community has also lagged in developing policies to counter white supremacy extremism. More resources, both financial and human, need to be directed at white supremacy extremism to curb its rise. Governments should review their terrorism laws to ensure that they are sufficiently updated to prosecute individuals who carry out acts of domestic terror.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> An armed gunman in Halle, Germany attacked people outside of a synagogue on Yom Kippur, killing two and injuring at least two others in the process. He livestreamed his attack on Twitch, during which he referred to himself as “Anon” (likely referencing 4chan or 8chan) and espoused far-right talking points. Now, the livestream platform has released a statement explaining how such an egregious violation slipped through its net.
> 
> On Twitter, Twitch outlined what happened from its perspective, opening with an acknowledgement that while it has a “a zero-tolerance policy against hateful conduct,” the stream nonetheless lasted 35 minutes, was viewed by five people while it was live, and was passed around to 2,200 people in the additional 30 minutes after it ended, before Twitch took it down. The issue, according to Twitch, is that the stream generated most of its heat off-platform.
> 
> “This account was created about two months prior to streaming the shooting and had attempted to stream only once before,” said Twitch. “This video was not surfaced in any recommendations or directories; instead, our investigation suggests that people were coordinating and sharing the video via other online messaging services.”
> 
> The company has since shared a version of the recording with an “industry consortium” to help stop it from spreading further.



https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/police-believed-killed-shooting-eastern-germany-66155503

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-synagogue-shooting-halle-grenade-reportedly-thrown-jewish-cemetery-today-2019-10-09/

https://twitter.com/Twitch/status/1182036266344271873


----------



## OceanBonfire

Follow up:



> German Halle gunman admits far-right synagogue attack
> 
> 
> A man has confessed to an attack on a synagogue in Germany in which two people died, and admitted a far-right, anti-Semitic motive, during a hearing with an investigating judge.
> 
> Stephan Balliet, 27, spent several hours giving evidence before a federal court judge about the attack in the eastern city of Halle.
> 
> He was arrested on Wednesday after a 40-year-old woman was shot dead in front of Halle's synagogue.
> 
> A man aged 20 was also fatally shot.
> 
> He was attacked inside a kebab shop after the gunman tried unsuccessfully to storm the synagogue, firing on the door several times.
> 
> Inside the synagogue, 51 people were marking Yom Kippur, the holiest day in Judaism. Investigators believe his intention was to carry out a massacre and have revealed that 4kg (9lb) of explosives were found in his car.
> 
> Stephan Balliet faces a double murder charge as well as seven counts of attempted murder. Before he was captured, he also wounded a man and a woman. He is now being held in pre-trial detention.
> 
> His lawyer Hans-Dieter Weber told Germany's public broadcaster, Südwestrundfunk, that his client stood by his actions.
> 
> "It would be nonsensical to deny it, and he didn't do that. In his view of the world, he blames others for his own misery and that's what ultimately triggered his action," the lawyer said.
> 
> The gunman streamed his attack online for 35 minutes and published a far-right manifesto. Prosecutors say it is too early to say if he had accomplices and whether he was part of any far-right group.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50011898

https://www.apnews.com/8bc138c14b054eb1b4640e94755a82e2


----------



## The Bread Guy

Different ideologies, similar approaches ...


> An NJOHSP (New Jersey Office of Homeland Security & Preparedness) review of white supremacist tactics indicates members are adopting strategies similar to those employed by foreign terrorist organizations, including strict membership guidelines, online propaganda, and inspiring lone offenders. Both the European neo-Nazi group, Feuerkrieg Division (FKD), and its similar American counterpart, Atomwaffen Division (AWD), have co-opted social networks and media arms to further spread their ideologies and gain followers ...


More @ link & in attached one-pager.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Interesting Lawfare article by terrorism expert Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware on the terrorist threat posed by the "incel" movement.



> Incels: America’s Newest Domestic Terrorism Threat
> 
> By Bruce Hoffman, Jacob Ware
> 
> Sunday, January 12, 2020, 10:00 AM
> 
> Editor’s Note: The involuntary celibate (incel) movement might seem to be just another sad online community, but strands of it have turned violent, committing repeated attacks that are best described as terrorism. Bruce Hoffman and Jacob Ware of the Council on Foreign Relations provide an overview of the incel movement as it stands today and argue that it has numerous characteristics that make it especially dangerous.
> 
> Daniel Byman
> 
> ***
> 
> Shortly after the May 2014 Isla Vista shooting, in which a gunman opened fire outside a University of California, Santa Barbara, sorority house, a chilling video circulated on social media. The attacker, 22-year-old former student Elliot Rodger, bluntly declared his motivation: “If I can’t have you girls,” he said, “I will destroy you.”
> 
> As has now become a fixture of mass shootings both in the United States and abroad, the gunman emailed his 107,000-word manifesto, titled My Twisted World, to 34 addresses in order to both presage and publicize the attack. The manifesto, which was widely quoted in news reports, revealed the existence of an aggressive, hateful and rapidly proliferating online community of young men frustrated at their inability to find sexual partners. They call themselves “incels”—a portmanteau for “involuntary celibate.”
> 
> The term is derived from a website created by a female undergraduate student at Canada’s Carleton University in 1993, eponymously named Alana’s Involuntary Celibacy Project. Although it was originally conceived as a site where lonely individuals of both sexes could meet, exchange experiences, and provide support, both the concept and its online manifestation were taken over by men complaining about their own involuntary celibacy and debating the causes behind their frustrations. Rodger was among those who adopted the “incel” label. Indeed, he is now considered by fellow incels to be their movement’s “patron saint”—a cultural touchstone and inspirational figure—to be imitated and emulated.
> 
> The incel ideology, as such, rails against “Stacys,” the idealized women they desire but believe deny them sex, as well as “Chads,” the similarly idealized males who are assailed for corralling all the apparently best women for themselves. Five years ago, these incels congregated on websites including PUAHate.com (“PUA” stands for pick-up artist); now, they trawl Reddit, 8chan and its replacement 8kun, and have also created their own forums and moved to the dark web.
> 
> The incel ideology is real—and lethal. In the deadliest incel-linked attack to date, in April 2018, 10 pedestrians were killed in a vehicle-ramming attack on Toronto’s busy Yonge Street. Other deadly attacks that have cited incel ideology or inspiration have occurred at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon, in October 2015; Aztec High School in Aztec, New Mexico, in December 2017; Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, in February 2018; and the Tallahassee Hot Yoga studio in Tallahassee, Florida, in November 2019. The death toll in the United States and Canada now stands at nearly 50 people. And incel ideology has spread to Europe, although it has yet to inspire, at least directly, any deadly attacks.
> 
> Accordingly, there are reasons to believe that the incel movement, and the terrorism threat it poses, are both here to stay and a matter to be taken seriously. First, this violence is indisputably terroristic in that it seeks to repress and subjugate women as part of the incels’ vision of a paternalistic, genderized society. As J.M. Berger argues, statements issued by incels showcase “all the standard components of extremist belief, including an in-group (the group to which an extremist belongs, in this case, the sexually deprived incels) and an out-group (the group targeted by the extremist group, in this case, Chads and Stacys, which translates from incelspeak as people with normal sex lives).” Berger also disputes the dismissal of incel violence as perpetrated by “obviously troubled” or mentally ill young men—even in cases where mental health issues are confirmed, ideology plays a role and the terrorism label is still applicable. By advocating bloodshed as a means of broader societal intimidation, incel ideology conforms to the core definition of terrorism as violence designed to have far-reaching psychological effects.
> 
> Second, the incel movement has benefited from the same social mobilization and online communication tools that have propelled the Islamic State and violent far-right extremists to increasing prominence and attention. With just a Google search, curious outsiders can discover an entire online world populated by incels, complete with their own sites, language and culture. Once there, initiates are exposed to a variegated menu of extremist topics, propagated by forum dwellers eager to radicalize newcomers.
> 
> Relatedly, the threat posed by incels is growing harder to ascertain, because increased law enforcement and media attention has forced the movement into darker and more private online locales. Public forums today, while still unambiguously misogynistic in their rhetoric, now rarely advocate violence as brazenly as they once did; they are relatively effectively self-policed by site administrators. Fringes of the movement have migrated to smaller, less-policed sites, including Telegram, the encrypted app favored by the Islamic State and other terrorist groups, and Discord, the popular gaming site.
> 
> Third, the fact that incel violence has come from breakaway lone actors rather than organized groups represents a formidable challenge to law enforcement efforts to interdict and prevent the violence espoused by the ideology’s proponents. Like most violent far-right and modern jihadist terrorism, incel violence has not been dictated by leaders of an identifiable network who design a plot and finance and train the attackers. Without any kind of traditional command-and-control apparatus, these incel attacks have instead been conceived by individuals who design and execute their plots alone. In this lone actor model, it becomes nearly impossible for law enforcement agencies to interdict would-be attackers and stop the violence before it occurs—as we have seen with terrorists inspired by the Islamic State. In most cases, the perpetrators leave no traceable footprint online until they post their manifestos or digital attack advertisements—and when they do, they are easily drowned out or overwhelmed by an army of “shitposters,” who enjoy spreading increasingly extreme and often violent rhetoric through their anonymous online profiles but rarely have any intention of committing attacks in the real world.
> 
> Fourth, the incel movement should be of grave concern because of its increasing intermingling with violent far-right extremists and their own bedrock talking points of hatred and intolerance. Rodger’s manifesto was not only virulently misogynistic; it was also racially charged. Since its publication in 2014, the incel movement has been infiltrated by far-right extremists, who see so-called “men’s rights activism” as a common ground. Male supremacy thus has gone hand-in-glove with white supremacy. As such, the increasing spread of extremist far-right views online and the success of far-right terrorists in launching major attacks from El Paso to Pittsburgh will likely continue to embolden incels.
> 
> In addition, like their far-right counterparts, some incels may have benefited from prior military service. Indeed, four of the six incel attackers cited here had some degree of military experience, and at least one other incel attack (in which only the gunman was killed) involved a U.S. Army veteran who opened fire outside a Dallas courthouse. In this respect, even those who left military service prematurely may nonetheless have used the weapons training they received in their attacks.
> 
> Finally, the incel movement’s rise is concerning because of its accessibility. This is not an ideology that requires training in arcane religious doctrine or indoctrination through complex political texts. Instead, it plays off emotions and frustrations experienced daily by young men around the world, and it appeals more effectively to individuals who are simply angry or lonely than to those with preexisting extremist tendencies. The incel ideology co-opts these feelings of isolation and sexual frustration and then weaponizes them into a hateful ideology that attacks women, men, and, in some instances, minorities and individuals with mental illness. And, with its online presence, a catalog of incel chatrooms is only a few clicks away for anyone with an internet connection. Compared to Islamism or white supremacism, inceldom is an ideology that any young man, in any community, could fall into—and become deeply enmeshed.
> 
> Perhaps the most challenging aspect of the incel movement’s mobilization to violence is that there are no obvious legal measures or counterterrorism intelligence initiatives available. The movement is completely decentralized, without any hierarchy or leaders, and therefore no targetable offline organizing or funding streams. It is also difficult to identify and enlist persons with similarly extremist views but who eschew violence to serve as interlocutors, as is done with other programs to counter violent extremism—although Alana, the Canadian female founder of the early involuntary celibate communities, is trying. Domestic law enforcement agencies cannot of course legally track online speech or police language—and, even so, incels pride themselves on their aforementioned penchant for “shitposting.” Policing social media forums and their content might potentially risk creating new monitoring problems by forcing incels into the darker web, where oversight is more difficult and violent rhetoric can more safely be propagated.
> 
> Moreover, the fact that, as Berger notes, many incels themselves claim to be suffering from psychological issues such as depression or evidence some degree of autism suggests the need for more proactive intervention from therapists and other mental health professionals. But, this is more easily said than done, as journalist Aja Romano, who has studied incels, notes. “Outreach for incels shouldn’t start with enabling the community’s violent misogyny or its collective sense of entitlement to the bodies and emotional support of women,” Romano argues. “It should start with improving men’s access to mental health treatment—and, crucially, their faith that it can do them any good.”
> 
> Alongside the far-right and Islamist homegrown violent extremists, incels conform to an increasingly pervasive trend of terrorist attacks perpetrated by individuals without any connection to an existing organization with known leaders and an identifiable command-and-control structure. It is part of a broader rise of domestic terrorism threats—and needs to be taken equally seriously by law enforcement and the counterterrorism community before the movement continues to grow in size and threat.



Link


----------



## Brad Sallows

One of the sources of pressure for those in the dating market.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit more about The Base, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act_ ....


> News reports say an American man who has been linked to a neo-Nazi group that allegedly plotted violent attacks in the United States now lives in Russia.
> 
> The Guardian newspaper and the BBC reported on January 24 that the leader of the group that calls itself The Base is a man who has used the aliases of Norman Spear and Roman Wolf.
> 
> They said the man is in fact named Rinaldo Nazzaro, who moved to St. Petersburg sometime in 2018.
> 
> Russian social media and other open source information point to a man living in St. Petersburg who taught English to foreigners there.
> 
> There was no response to multiple phone calls made by RFE/RL to a number affiliated with the man’s online advertisement for English lessons. Public records searches and other open source media show a man with the name Rinaldo Nazzaro living in New York, New Jersey, and suburban Washington, D.C. in recent years. He reportedly married a Russian woman in 2012.
> 
> A white supremacist group whose members espouse a radical racist ideology calling for a race war to cause anarchy, The Base has been around since 2018, according to U.S. court records.
> 
> It gained wide public attention earlier this month when U.S. law enforcement arrested two Americans and one Canadian in Maryland, just days before a major gun-rights rally held in the capital city of the U.S. state of Virginia.
> 
> According to documents filed in U.S. federal court, the men were accused of plotting to spark violence at the January 19 rally, which attracted tens of thousands of protesters and ended peacefully with no violence and only a few arrests.
> 
> Authorities arrested four other men linked to the group in two other U.S. states.
> 
> According to the news reports, Nazarro, using his aliases, was a frequent participant in white supremacist and racist chat rooms, often recruiting people with military backgrounds to join the group.
> 
> A company he was affiliated with in the early 2010s was called Omega Solutions International, which said “its associates worked with various government and military agencies, and had “experience conducting intelligence analysis for government agencies, military organizations, and private businesses.”
> 
> The website was shuttered sometime after August 19.


----------



## The Bread Guy

New Jersey's DHS on The Base ...


> _*Neo-Nazi Group Remains Committed to Spreading Ideology*_
> 
> In 2020, the neo-Nazi organization, The Base, will likely attempt to recruit new members in the region, rely on members with military expertise and training, and use intimidation tactics to terrorize its victims and spread its white supremacist ideology. The Base formed in 2018 as an organization that seeks to defend the European race while establishing a network of supporters willing to use violence to overthrow the current social and political order for a perceived impending race war ...


More @ link & in attachment.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From south of the border here ....


> The FBI has arrested four people described by the agency as “violent extremists,” believed to have ties to the neo-Nazi group Atomwaffen Division, after an investigation that included threats mailed to Western Washington journalists and racial and religious minorities.
> 
> The FBI and the U.S. Attorney’s Office was holding a news conference with details of the arrests Wednesday.
> 
> In a news release, the agency said four men in four states had been arrested and charged in the case: Cameron Brandon Shea, 24, of Redmond; Kaleb Cole, 24, of Montgomery, Texas; Taylor Ashley Parker-Dipeppe, 20, of Spring Hill, Florida; and Johnny Roman Garza, 20, of Queen Creek, Arizona.
> 
> The Seattle Times has obtained an FBI “Situational Information Report” sent to law enforcement earlier this month that details the threats and contains copies of racist and anti-Semitic posters mailed to individuals on Mercer Island and residents of Edmonds and Seattle.
> 
> The posters contain imagery such as swastikas and a hooded figure in a skull mask, with language such as “We know where you live” and “Your actions have consequences.”
> 
> The identities of the journalists or other recipients of the letters were not released. The FBI report states that some had been involved in “doxxing” members of the group, a reference to the harassing practice of posting someone’s personal information on social media ...


... and here:


> A former leader of the white supremacist group Atomwaffen Division was arrested today on charges related to his alleged role in a conspiracy that conducted multiple swatting events that occurred here in the Eastern District of Virginia.
> 
> John Cameron Denton, 26, of Montgomery, Texas, is allegedly a former leader of the Atomwaffen Division in Texas. Denton was arrested this morning in Montgomery and will make his initial appearance at 2 p.m. CST before U.S. Magistrate Judge Nancy K. Johnson at the federal courthouse in Houston.
> 
> According to court documents, from November 2018 to at least April 2019, Denton and several co-conspirators, including John William Kirby Kelley, allegedly conspired together to conduct “swatting” calls. Swatting is a harassment tactic that involves deceiving dispatchers into believing that a person or persons are in imminent danger of death or bodily harm and causing the dispatchers to send police and emergency services to an unwitting third party’s address.
> 
> According to court documents, Denton allegedly participated in a conspiracy that conducted three swatting calls that occurred here in the Eastern District of Virginia: a Cabinet official living in Northern Virginia on Jan. 27, 2019; Old Dominion University on Nov. 29, 2018; and Alfred Street Baptist Church on Nov. 3, 2018.
> 
> Additionally, Denton allegedly chose at least two other targets to “swat”: the New York City office of ProPublica, a non-profit newsroom that produces investigative journalism; and an investigative journalist that produced materials for ProPublica. Denton allegedly chose the two targets because he was furious with ProPublica and the investigative journalist for publishing his true identity and discussing his role in Atomwaffen Division ...


As usual, presumed innocent until proven guilty via due process.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> From south of the border here ....
> 
> 
> 
> The FBI has arrested four people described by the agency as “violent extremists,” believed to have ties to the neo-Nazi group Atomwaffen Division, after an investigation that included threats mailed to Western Washington journalists and racial and religious minorities.
> 
> The FBI and the U.S. Attorney’s Office was holding a news conference with details of the arrests Wednesday.
> 
> In a news release, the agency said four men in four states had been arrested and charged in the case: Cameron Brandon Shea, 24, of Redmond; Kaleb Cole, 24, of Montgomery, Texas; Taylor Ashley Parker-Dipeppe, 20, of Spring Hill, Florida; and Johnny Roman Garza, 20, of Queen Creek, Arizona.
> 
> The Seattle Times has obtained an FBI “Situational Information Report” sent to law enforcement earlier this month that details the threats and contains copies of racist and anti-Semitic posters mailed to individuals on Mercer Island and residents of Edmonds and Seattle.
> 
> The posters contain imagery such as swastikas and a hooded figure in a skull mask, with language such as “We know where you live” and “Your actions have consequences.”
> 
> The identities of the journalists or other recipients of the letters were not released. The FBI report states that some had been involved in “doxxing” members of the group, a reference to the harassing practice of posting someone’s personal information on social media ...
Click to expand...

More from the USA DoJ:


> Four racially motivated violent extremists from across the U.S. were arrested and charged today in U.S District Court in Seattle with a conspiracy to threaten and intimidate journalists and activists, the Department of Justice announced. Today’s arrests and searches by the FBI and local law enforcement are being coordinated by the Department of Justice’s National Security Division and the U.S. Attorney’s Offices in Seattle, Tampa, Houston, and Phoenix.
> 
> “These defendants from across the country allegedly conspired on the internet to intimidate journalists and activists with whom they disagreed,” said Assistant Attorney General for National Security John C. Demers.  “This is not how America works. The Department of Justice will not tolerate this type of behavior.”
> 
> “These defendants sought to spread fear and terror with threats delivered to the doorstep of those who are critical of their activities,” said U.S. Attorney Brian T. Moran for the Western District of Washington.  “As Attorney General William Barr has made clear, rooting out anti-Semitic hate and threats of violence and vigorously prosecuting those responsible are top priorities for the Department of Justice.”
> 
> “The United States Attorney’s Office for the Middle District of Florida and FBI-Tampa have been focused on identifying and eradicating the threat posed by the Atomwaffen Division both locally and nationally,” said U.S. Attorney Maria Chapa Lopez for the Middle District of Florida.  “Today’s arrests send a powerful message that the Department of Justice will not tolerate criminal conduct based on hateful ideology.  We will continue to work with our partners here in the Middle District of Florida, and elsewhere, to devote our resources to investigate and prosecute those who aim to threaten and terrorize our communities.”
> 
> The defendants charged in the conspiracy include:
> 
> Cameron Brandon Shea, 24, of Redmond, Washington;
> 
> Kaleb Cole, 24, of Montgomery, Texas;
> 
> Taylor Ashley Parker-Dipeppe, 20, of Spring Hill, Florida, and
> 
> Johnny Roman Garza, 20, of Queen Creek, Arizona.
> 
> According to the criminal complaint, the defendants conspired via an encrypted online chat group to identify journalists and others they wanted to intimidate.  The group focused primarily on those who are Jewish or journalists of color.  Defendants Cole and Shea created the posters, which included Nazi symbols, masked figures with guns and Molotov cocktails, and threatening language.  The posters were delivered to Atomwaffen members electronically and the coconspirators printed and delivered or mailed the posters to journalists or activists the group was targeting.  In the Seattle area, the posters were mailed to a TV journalist who had reported on Atomwaffen and to two individuals associated with the Anti-Defamation League (ADL).  In Tampa, the group targeted a journalist,but delivered the poster to the wrong address.  In Phoenix, the poster was delivered to a magazine journalist ...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *In first, U.S. brands white supremacists as foreign terrorists*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The United States on Monday branded a Russian far-right group as a foreign terrorist organization, the first time it has targeted white supremacists with tools regularly used against jihadist groups.
> 
> The State Department said that the Russian Imperial Movement runs two paramilitary training camps in Saint Petersburg and has pulled in neo-Nazis from across the Western world.
> 
> "This is the first time the United States has ever designated white supremacist terrorists, illustrating how seriously this administration takes the threat," said Nathan Sales, the State Department counterterrorism coordinator.
> 
> The Russian Imperial Movement and three of its leaders were blacklisted as Specially Designated Global Terrorists, meaning that they will not be admitted to the United States and that any US assets they hold will be blocked.
> 
> Sales said that the United States was alarmed by the rise in white supremacist violence around the world, including attacks on Muslims in Christchurch, New Zealand, and against Hispanics in El Paso, Texas.
> 
> President Donald Trump has faced widespread criticism for his uncritical treatment of white supremacists as well as his rhetoric that demonizes non-white immigrants as criminals.
> 
> Most notoriously, Trump said that neo-Nazis whose 2017 march in Charlottesville, Virginia devolved into violence included "very fine people."
> 
> Sales insisted that the administration was targeting white supremacists.
> 
> He said that the designation was made possible by an order by Trump that allows designation of terrorists based on their training, not necessarily participation in violence.
> 
> But he said that two extremists from Sweden, known for its generosity toward refugees, traveled in August 2016 to Saint Petersburg to undergo 11 days of paramilitary training.
> 
> They returned to Sweden and carried out a series of attacks including a bombing outside a migrant center in Gothenburg that gravely injured one person, the State Department said.
> 
> "This group has innocent blood on its hands," Sales said.
> 
> "Today's designations send an unmistakable message that the United States will not hesitate to use our sanctions authorities aggressively, and that we are prepared to target any foreign terrorist group, regardless of ideology, that threatens our citizens, our interests abroad, or our allies," he said.
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/in-first-u-s-brands-white-supremacists-as-foreign-terrorists-1.4884551
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/state-dept-labels-white-supremacist-group-terrorists-1st/story?id=69998908
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-designation/u-s-designates-russian-ultra-nationalist-group-as-terrorist-organization-idUSKBN21O1UQ


----------



## PuckChaser

I'll be impressed when Anti-Fa makes it onto the terrorist list. I guess it'll take them blowing up a pipeline before they do something, smashing people with bike locks during riots isn't good enough.


----------



## Journeyman

> "This is the first time the United States has ever designated white supremacist terrorists, illustrating how seriously this administration takes the threat," said Nathan Sales, the State Department counterterrorism coordinator.



Ooohh…. designating white supremacists as terrorists in _someone else's country_.  What a bold move.    :boring:

Sure, the Southern Poverty Law Center managed to document 940 active hate groups in the United States over the past 12 months;  I guess not one of them was 'hateful' enough.   :


Yes, I'm well aware that not all are white supremacists


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Violent extremists may exploit coronavirus pandemic, target hospitals, threat report warns*
> 
> Violent extremists may try to take advantage of the coronavirus pandemic by attacking hospitals and supermarkets, according to a U.S. threat assessment circulated in Canada by the RCMP.
> 
> “Pandemics and other natural crises create unprecedented challenges that terrorists could exploit to conduct attacks against and already stressed society, and strained government and public safety system,” it said.
> 
> “While most citizens isolate in their homes, public safety personnel, hospitals and establishments, such as supermarkets and pharmacies, serve the largest number of co-located individuals, making them potentially attractive targets.”
> 
> The April 1 warning was written by the U.S. National Counterterrorism Centre (NCTC) but was included in a security advisory prepared by the U.S. rail industry.
> 
> According to two sources who did not want to be publicly identified, they industry advisory was distributed in this country by the RCMP’s First Responder Terrorism Awareness Program.
> 
> A copy was obtained by Global News.
> 
> The report also included an April 1 Department of Homeland Security (DHS) assessment of attempts by extremists to encourage supporters to spread COVID-19 to law enforcement members and minority communities, as well as at places of worship and on public transit.
> 
> “The RCMP is aware of this report and receives a number of COVID-19 related intelligence reports daily from a variety of sources,” said Catherine Fortin, an RCMP spokesperson.
> 
> “The COVID-19 crisis is bringing uncertainty and financial insecurity to a large portion of the population. However, the frustrations created by this situation in no case justify hatred, threats, and inciting violence.”
> 
> Prof. Stephanie Carvin said nobody should be surprised that extremists would want to exploit the pandemic to advance their goals.
> 
> “At the end of the day, violent extremists are opportunistic,” she said.
> 
> Two attacks in the U.S. have already been linked to extremists, the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs national security expert said.
> 
> On April 1, U.S. authorities said they had arrested a 44-year-old conspiracy theorist for running a locomotive off the end of its tracks near a navy hospital ship treating COVID-19 patients in the port of Los Angeles.
> 
> A March 24 incident in which a Missouri follower of white supremacist ideology was shot dead following an attempted attack at a Kansas City medical centre.
> 
> The report said the Kansas City plot “lends support” to the view that extremists may strike during the crisis. The attacker, Timothy Wilson, 36, had allegedly accelerated the timing of his bomb plot because the medical centre “offered more casualties” due to COVID-19.
> 
> As efforts to contain the new coronavirus have largely emptied places where people typically gather in large numbers, security officials have speculated that terrorists may respond by shifting targets.
> 
> At the same time, there are concerns that violent extremist movements may view the pandemic as an opportunity to strike at societies as they are already struggling to cope with the health crisis.
> 
> On Telegram, extremists have advocated infecting rabbis and business owners “of Indian descent,” the report said, while those infected were urged to visit mosques, synagogues and diverse neighbourhoods.
> 
> “A related concern is propaganda calling on ‘believers,’ adherents, and supporters to exploit the prevailing duress on law enforcement and security professionals to attempt to execute attacks,” the report said.
> 
> But the report also said medical facilities may not be a “favorable environment” for violent extremists, and they lack experience with such targets. They may also fear contracting the virus themselves.
> 
> “Whether violent extremists are willing to risk personal health without measurable success is unknown,” the Railway Alert Network report said, quoting the DHS analysis.
> 
> “The lack of quantifiable success and possible violent extremist actors’ concerns for their own health may feed into the decision calculus to seek out exposure to infect others.”
> 
> It also noted that since those with COVID-19 do not always develop symptoms, violent extremists would not necessarily know they were infected, making it impossible for them to attempt to intentionally infect others.
> 
> Terrorism expert Prof. Amarnath Amarasingam, author of an article on the topic, said he had not seen any evidence that either Islamist or right-wing extremists were serious about such attacks.
> 
> “Accelerationists and ecofascist chats initially talked about spreading fake rumours about individuals weaponizing COVID-19,” the Queen’s University professor said.
> 
> “This included memes joking about spitting and sneezing and licking public places and other posts suggesting spitting in a spray bottle and spraying it at people they didn’t like.”
> 
> But these extremists did not seem to be serious, and it was “mostly trolling,” although they might inspire a lone individual to take action, Amarasingam said.
> 
> The Association of American Railroads Railway Alert Network, which wrote the report, referred a reporter to the DHS, which did not respond to questions by deadline.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6795248/extremists-may-exploit-coronavirus-pandemic-threat-report/


----------



## FJAG

Time to bring back drawing and quartering.

op:


----------



## OldSolduer

FJAG said:
			
		

> Time to bring back drawing and quartering.
> 
> op:



Funny you should mention that. For  minor crimes can we bring back the stocks and pillories? Rotten fruit and tomatoes thrown at the accused/convicted? Maybe get a major corporation to back it? (Ram Trucks?)


----------



## FJAG

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Funny you should mention that. For  minor crimes can we bring back the stocks and pillories? Rotten fruit and tomatoes thrown at the accused/convicted? Maybe get a major corporation to back it? (Ram Trucks?)



I think society is ready for it again. Extreme cage fighting is so tame.

op:


----------



## OldSolduer

FJAG said:
			
		

> I think society is ready for it again. Extreme cage fighting is so tame.
> 
> op:



Maybe some witch trials too??


----------



## FJAG

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Maybe some witch trials too??



No. No! That could get you in trouble in so many ways.

op:


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few highlights from NJ Homeland Security ...


> ... *Pandemic in NJ Brings Charges in Threat Against Religious Community, Summonses for Gatherings*
> 
> The coronavirus pandemic in New Jersey has led to charges against a man accused of threatening the Orthodox Jewish community in Lakewood (Ocean County), where police have also issued summonses to some members of the community for violating the State’s ban on public gatherings. Anthony Lodespoto (pictured), 43, of Howell (Monmouth County), was arrested on March 27 after Lakewood police learned of an online “bias terroristic threat” from the New Jersey State Police. The Ocean County Prosecutor’s Office said Lodespoto threatened “to travel to Lakewood with the purpose of assaulting members of the Jewish community with a baseball bat.” State Police told Lakewood Police that Lodespoto sent a similar message to Governor Phil Murphy’s Facebook account, said Ocean County Prosecutor Bradley D. Billhimer and Lakewood Police Chief Gregory Meyer. The threats came after police broke up Orthodox gatherings that included a bar mitzvah, an engagement party, and an adult religious school. On April 1, police issued summonses to 15 people and dispersed a funeral in Lakewood that attracted 60-70 people to a street corner near a temple and cemetery, authorities said.
> 
> *Terror Squad Examines Why Engineer Derailed Train in Bid to Ram Navy Hospital Ship*
> 
> The FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating what prompted a train engineer to purposely run his train off the tracks on March 31 in an attempt to ram a Navy hospital ship sent to the Port of Los Angeles to relieve hospitals straining from an influx of coronavirus patients, federal prosecutors said. Eduardo Moreno, 44, admitted derailing the train, which slammed through a steel barrier, a chain-link fence, a parking lot, a lot filled with gravel, and a second chain-link fence before coming to rest 250 yards from the USNS Mercy, prosecutors said. Moreno told police, “You only get this chance once. The whole world is watching. I had to. People don’t know what’s going on here. Now they will.” Moreno, of nearby San Pedro, California, told investigators he was “suspicious” of the ship and believed it “had an alternate purpose related to COVID-19 or a government takeover.” Moreno faces one count of train wrecking, which carries up to 20 years in federal prison.
> 
> *Analysis Finds White Supremacist Hospital Bomb Plotter Also Looked at Power Grid, Schools*
> 
> An analysis of a white supremacist bomb plot against a Missouri hospital coping with the coronavirus pandemic revealed the suspect also discussed using balloons to attack electricity infrastructure and shooting up schools in minority neighborhoods. According to a bulletin from the FBI and US Department of Homeland Security issued on March 30, Timothy Wilson’s plot reflects a trend among white supremacists who are “seeking to maximize their audience and the dissemination of their message” and illustrates the persistent threat posed by racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists (RMVEs) and the “potential for world events to influence the timing and location of an attack.” Wilson, 36, of Missouri, died in a shootout with the FBI on March 24 when he was taking delivery of what he thought was an improvised explosive device from an undercover agent. The bulletin said Wilson came under investigation in September, when the FBI arrested Jarrett William Smith, a soldier at Fort Riley in Kansas. He and Wilson talked about how to make explosive devices, authorities said. Smith pleaded guilty in February to distributing bomb-making instructions and will be sentenced in May. ...


PDF also attached in case link doesn't work for you.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Neo-Nazi ‘commander’ unmasked as 13-year-old kid in Estonia*
> 
> Online, he was known as HeilHitler8814, the so-called “commander” of a neo-Nazi group with plans to bomb CNN and attack a U.S. synagogue in hopes of starting a race war.
> 
> In real life, he was a 13-year-old keyboard warrior flirting with racism and terrorism from his parents’ home in Estonia, according to officials and reports from the tiny eastern European country.
> 
> The Estonian Internal Security Service (EISS) says it struck a damaging blow to an international hate group called the Feuerkrieg Division earlier this year when it showed up at the kid’s house and told his parents what he’d been up to.
> 
> Authorities couldn’t charge the boy because he was too young, but they worked with his parents to get him to “suspend” his activities with the hate group, according to Harrys Puusepp, a spokesperson for the EISS.
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6831754/neo-nazi-commander-13/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Facebook removes accounts linked to QAnon conspiracy theory*
> 
> Facebook says it has removed several groups, accounts and pages linked to QAnon, taking action for the first time against the far-right U.S. conspiracy theory circulated among supporters of President Donald Trump.
> 
> The social-media giant made the announcement Tuesday as part of its monthly briefing on “coordinated inauthentic behavior” on its platforms. That’s Facebook’s term for fake accounts run with the intent of disrupting politics elections and society.
> 
> In addition to the QAnon accounts, Facebook also removed accounts linked to VDARE, a U.S. website known for posting anti-immigration content, as well as accounts in Russia, Iran, Mauritania, Myanmar and the country of Georgia.
> 
> QAnon is a right-wing conspiracy theory centered on the baseless belief that Trump is waging a secret campaign against enemies in the “deep state” and a child sex trafficking ring run by satanic pedophiles and cannibals. For more than two years, followers have pored over a tangled set of clues purportedly posted online by a high-ranking government official known only as “Q.”
> 
> The conspiracy theory first emerged in a dark corner of the internet but has been creeping into the mainstream political arena. Trump has retweeted QAnon-promoting accounts and its followers flock to the president’s rallies wearing clothes and hats with QAnon symbols and slogans.
> 
> Facebook says it found the QAnon activity as part of its investigations into suspected coordinated inauthentic behavior ahead of the 2020 presidential election.
> 
> “We are making progress rooting out this abuse, but as we’ve said before, it’s an ongoing effort,” the company said in its April report on coordinated activity. “That means building better technology, hiring more people and working more closely with law enforcement, security experts and other companies.”
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://apnews.com/0fdbc9ae690c64c0e3e9d26f9d93aab0


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Deadly attack at Toronto erotic spa was incel terrorism, police allege*
> 
> A deadly attack at a Toronto erotic massage parlour three months ago is now being treated as an act of terrorism after police allegedly uncovered evidence it was inspired by misogynist incel ideology.
> 
> Charges against the suspect accused of carrying out the Feb. 24 stabbing attack, which killed a woman and injured another, were updated in court on Tuesday to “murder - terrorist activity.”
> 
> The suspect, who cannot be named because he is a minor, was already facing first-degree and attempted murder charges, but the development means police believe the incident was terrorism-related.
> 
> Global News has learned police are alleging the attack was inspired by the incel movement made up of men unable to attract sexual partners who promote violence against women on internet forums.
> 
> Experts said it was the first time a terrorism charge had been laid over violence tied to incels, a term that refers to self-described “involuntary celibates.”
> 
> It is also believed to be the first time Canada’s anti-terrorism laws have been used to prosecute an act of violence by a suspect who was not an Islamist extremist.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6910670/toronto-spa-terrorism-incel/


----------



## PuckChaser

If they're using terrorism laws to prosecute "Incels", "Antifa" better be next.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Threat of ‘incel’ terrorism continues to grow, attract younger followers: experts*
> 
> Two years after the Toronto van attack that killed 10, the misogynist incel subculture allegedly behind the mass killing is part of an evolving threat that intersects with far right extremism, according to experts.
> 
> Those who self-identify as incels number in the “tens of thousands” and are a major challenge for law enforcement, said Colin Clarke, a senior research fellow at the Soufan Center, a U.S. think-tank.
> 
> “Part of the challenge, is to wrap our heads around this, that it’s terrorism,” he said.
> 
> Governments should be dedicating more resources and expertise to help police and security officials track the incel movement the same way they analyze other terrorist networks, according to Clarke.
> 
> Clarke warns of a growing overlap between so-called incels and far-right extremism, like white supremacists, that is helping to indoctrinate young men online at an earlier age with a media diet of racist, misogynist and hateful propaganda.
> 
> He said the first six months of 2020 will be a “watershed” moment for these movements of angry young men as they are spending more time online amid lockdowns to fight the spread of the new coronavirus.
> 
> “More people than ever are online and more people than ever are accessing propaganda and white supremacist content,” he said. “We’re seeing kids as young as nine, 10, 11 years old that are engaging with white supremacists online. This is a huge concern.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6956735/incel-violence-far-right-extremism-expert/


----------



## Navy_Pete

These lone wolf type of attacks must be a nightmare for law enforcement; unless they are boasting about it or otherwise reported, must be hard to track/predict.

Interesting to see what they do to Minassin, who had basically the same kind of logic.

Aside from the charge, does it add any extra to how they are jailed/paroled, or does it just increase sentencing length?  I don't mind a harsher punishment, but if there is no kind of deradicalization for extremists, seems stupid to ever plan to let them out again as you did nothing to make them not a threat.


----------



## Journeyman

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> These lone wolf _stray mutt_  type of attacks ….


The term does wolves a disservice.


----------



## brihard

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> These lone wolf type of attacks must be a nightmare for law enforcement; unless they are boasting about it or otherwise reported, must be hard to track/predict.
> 
> Interesting to see what they do to Minassin, who had basically the same kind of logic.
> 
> Aside from the charge, does it add any extra to how they are jailed/paroled, or does it just increase sentencing length?  I don't mind a harsher punishment, but if there is no kind of deradicalization for extremists, seems stupid to ever plan to let them out again as you did nothing to make them not a threat.



If someone's already up on multiple cases of murder, there's little value added for a terrorism charge. There's no change in the accused's jeopardy.

In the case of a youth charged with a single count of murder, I can see the reasoning- they want to get the matter taken as seriously as possible by the courts, ideally with adult sentencing. The terrorism aspect of it may bring a sentencing enhancement with it, though I'd have to check to see how that works... And the fact that the matter will proceed under the Youth Criminal Justice Act adds further variables.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Incels labelled violent extremists in latest CSIS annual report*
> 
> Violent misogyny is recognized as a form of ideological extremism in the latest annual report of Canada’s intelligence service, released on Wednesday following the arrest of an alleged incel in Toronto.
> 
> The Canadian Security Intelligence Service report specifically names incels as an example of violent misogyny, and cites two attacks in Ontario by suspected followers of the ideology.
> 
> The classification of gender-based violence as violent extremism is part of the new terminology that CSIS said it would now use to describe the "violent extremist terrorist threat landscape."
> 
> "We take very seriously threats posed by individuals who hold extremist beliefs, including male supremacy and misogyny," Public Safety Minister Bill Blair's office said in a statement Thursday.
> 
> "Our government is committed to countering the threats to public safety and national security posed by ideologically motivated violent extremists, such as individuals motivated by incel ideologies."
> 
> The report comes a day after police charged a youth with terrorism offences over a deadly Feb. 24 attack at a Toronto massage parlour. Police alleged Tuesday the attacker was inspired by incel ideology.
> 
> Prof. Stephanie Carvin of the Norman Paterson School of International Affairs said the report was a sign that CSIS "has put some thought into how it handles violent extremism - that it is all not the same."
> 
> Under the new terminology, CSIS divided violent extremists and terrorists into three categories: religiously-motivated, politically-motivated and ideologically-motivated.
> 
> Gender-driven violence is one of four types of what are classified as "ideologically motivated violent extremism," along with xenophobic, anti-authority and "other" violence.
> 
> It defines gender-driven violence as "the hatred of those of a different gender and or sexual orientation which can lead to violent misogyny.
> 
> "The 2018 Toronto van attack is an example of gender-driven violence."
> 
> Almost 50 killings in Canada and the United States have been linked to incels, self-described "involuntary celibates" who frequent online forums that promote violence against women.
> 
> A terrorism and national security expert, Carvin said the examples provided by the intelligence agency in the report showed its thinking on where ideology and extremist violence come together.
> 
> "In this way, there is a maturing of CSIS' understanding of terrorist violence," she said.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6965806/incels-violent-extremism-csis-report/
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/csis-scrs/documents/publications/2018-PUBLIC_REPORT_ENGLISH_Digital.pdf


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Report: FBI found weapons, booby traps after arrest of 3 Nevada men with military experience*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI agents found rags, gasoline, aerosol cans and weapons along with booby traps, fireworks and handwritten notes of military and survival tactics while serving search warrants on three Nevada men who authorities say sought to spark violence during recent Las Vegas protests, according to police reports obtained Monday.
> 
> U.S. prosecutors say Stephen T. Parshall, 35, Andrew T. Lynam Jr., 23, and William L. Loomis, 40, have ties to a loose movement of right-wing extremists advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government. Authorities said the men hoped to carry out a plan to create civic unrest by capitalizing on protests over businesses closed due to the coronavirus and later, the death of George Floyd, a black man who died in Minneapolis after a white officer pressed his knee into his neck for several minutes.
> 
> Parshall, Lynam and Loomis, all white men with U.S. military experience, each currently face two federal charges: conspiracy to damage and destroy by fire and explosive, and possession of unregistered firearms. They also face charges of felony conspiracy, terrorism and explosives possession in state court.
> 
> ...
> 
> The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Las Vegas last week said the men self-identified as part of the anti-government “boogaloo” movement, a loose, internet-rooted network of gun enthusiasts who often express support for overthrowing the U.S. government. Its name, a reference to a 1984 movie sequel called “Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo,” is a code word for a second civil war.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/09/report-fbi-found-weapons-booby-traps-after-arrest-of-3-nevada-men/


----------



## mariomike

> June 10, 2020
> 
> White supremacists and racist terrorists pose greatest risk of violence, FBI warns
> https://nypost.com/2020/06/10/supremacists-racist-terrorists-greatest-risk-of-violence-fbi-memo/
> 
> White supremacists and racist domestic terrorists pose the largest threat of violence in the United States amid nationwide protests across the country, according to a new intelligence bulletin.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Amid nationwide protests, most of the violence is by plain old people.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Report: Airman suspected of killing deputy wrote violent extremist messages in blood*
> 
> Staff Sgt. Steven Carrillo, the Travis Air Force Base security forces airman charged with murdering a California sheriff’s deputy and multiple other crimes last Saturday, wrote phrases associated with a far-right extremist movement in blood on a car before his arrest, NBC News reported Thursday.
> 
> Citing prosecutors from Santa Cruz County, NBC reported that Carrillo wrote the words “boog” and “I became unreasonable” in blood on the hood of a car shortly before he was arrested. NBC said “boog” is short for “boogaloo,” which is a term for an online anti-government movement that seeks to provoke a second civil war in America.
> 
> “I became unreasonable” refers to a quote from anti-government extremist Marvin Heemeyer, which has become a meme on boogaloo-related social media sites, NBC said. Heemeyer bulldozed 13 buildings in Colorado in June 2004 over a zoning dispute and then killed himself. He has become known by the nickname “Killdozer” in extremist circles online.
> 
> Carrillo also wrote “stop the duopoly” in blood, NBC said, referencing a desire to break the system of two main political parties in the United States.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2020/06/12/report-airman-suspected-of-killing-deputy-wrote-violent-extremist-messages-in-blood/


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Searches for extremist content spiked after Canada’s coronavirus lockdown: report*
> 
> Engagement with violent, far-right extremist content online jumped in Canada during lockdowns imposed to stop the spread of the novel coronavirus, according to a group of researchers.
> 
> Moonshot CVE, a U.K.-based organization specializing in counter-extremism work, analyzed search data for six major Canadian cities between the end of January and the end of April, according to a report published this week.
> 
> Researchers found a “statistically significant increase in searches for violent far-right extremist content” in four regions: Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and the Montréal-Laval area. The analysis found that search traffic also increased in Toronto and Vancouver “but not to a statistically significant degree.”
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7054410/coronavirus-extremist-content-searches-canada/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Should we look at changing the two terrorism threads names to be a bit more ambiguous in terms of who they single out?

Perhaps 
Terrorism: Domestic/Extremist
Terrosism: Religious

or something along those lines?


----------



## Weinie

https://globalnews.ca/news/7054410/coronavirus-extremist-content-searches-canada/

Hmm. Up 34+ % in Ottawa. I wonder how much of the spike in searching out extremist content is from GoC agencies. With heightened concern about malign influence, I am sure that CSIS, CSE, RCMP, GAC, PMO, and countless other orgs we are not aware of, plus a host of media agencies seeking an exclusive, ratcheted up the numbers of scraping/searches they conducted.  Occams Razor
#self-licking ice cream cone.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *More than 6,000 Canadian online channels involved in spreading right-wing extremism, study finds*
> 
> A new study has identified more than 6,600 online channels, pages, groups and accounts across several social media platforms where Canadians were involved in spreading white supremacist, misogynistic or other extremist views.
> 
> The research, led by the U.K.-based Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD) and published Friday, found a variety of Canadian right-wing extremist communities across online platforms including Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Iron March, Fascist Forge, 4chan and Gab.
> 
> The study reported that these channels, pages, groups and accounts collectively have reached more than 11 million users across their platforms.
> 
> On one particular message board called "politically incorrect" on the fringe site 4chan, researchers found that Canadian users created more than 1.6 million posts, representing nearly six per cent of posts from all countries, according to the study.
> 
> "We found that Canadians are highly active on forums associated with white supremacy, representing the third largest nationality using 4chan's 'politically incorrect' board after the U.S. and U.K., and were the third largest community on Iron March when the platform was active," according to the report.
> 
> Jacob Davey, ISD senior research manager and one of the authors of the study, told CTVNews.ca on Friday that after considering population size, Canada actually had a larger proportion of users compared to other countries.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/more-than-6-000-canadian-online-channels-involved-in-spreading-right-wing-extremism-study-finds-1.4991473


----------



## Kat Stevens

https://www.isdglobal.org/programmes/research-insight/

Click on the "issues" tab. Far right prominently displayed. Nothing about far left. Nothing. Weird, huh?


----------



## Weinie

Target Up said:
			
		

> https://www.isdglobal.org/programmes/research-insight/
> 
> Click on the "issues" tab. Far right prominently displayed. Nothing about far left. Nothing. Weird, huh?


It's called situating and controlling the narrative. The far left is a myth, the far right is legion.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *US soldier plotted with Satanic neo-Nazis to ambush his own unit overseas, feds say*
> 
> A U.S. soldier assigned to an installation in Europe has been charged with trying to plan a deadly ambush on members of his own unit during an upcoming deployment with the help of an “occult-based neo-Nazi” group known as the “Order of the Nine Angles,” according to an indictment unsealed Monday.
> 
> Pvt. Ethan P. Melzer, 22, confessed to plotting what he intended to be a mass casualty attack during an interview with U.S. agents on May 30, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York.
> 
> Melzer was arrested on June 10 by the FBI. During the interview, Melzer called himself a traitor against the United States and admitted that he intended to cause as many deaths among his fellow service members as possible, according to the indictment.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/06/22/us-soldier-plotted-with-satanic-neo-nazis-to-ambush-his-own-unit-overseas-feds-say/


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> It's called situating and controlling the narrative. The far left is a myth, the far right is legion.



Probably more a matter of who's actually dropping bodies and who isn't. The death toll in North America is fairly heavily stacked towards far right terrorism versus far left in the past few decades.


----------



## Brad Sallows

That which is seen, and that which is unseen.

We can only count the bodies resulting from direct, manifest attacks.  There is nothing wrong with utilitarian calculations - very fashionable, these days - but those making them don't get to ignore the parts they find hard to calculate.

Right-wing extremism mostly has to hide in the shadows and is almost universally denounced when it emerges (even if the denunciations are insufficiently emphatic to satisfy some).  Left-wing extremism is out there in the open, causing a lot of damage and ruining a lot of lives, often receiving favourable mainstream political and media coverage.

Right-wing extremism might be more harmful/costly, but we don't "know" it.

I'm confident that right-wing extremism passed its high watermark long ago and is on its way down.  Left-wing extremism is not under control.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *German police raid banned far-right group in 4 states*
> 
> German police conducted raids Tuesday on sites linked to a far-right group after the country's top security official deemed it extremist
> 
> Interior Minister Horst Seehofer banned the group Nordadler, which means ‘Northern Eagle,’ early Tuesday. His office said the police raids were carried out in four German states.
> 
> It said the group acted mainly online, spreading far-right extremist ideology and anti-Semitism.
> 
> Authorities say Northern Eagle members see themselves as adherents of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler and had planned to establish a rural community with people who shared their views.
> 
> The group uses social media channels such as Telegram, Instagram and Discord to promote its ideology, win new members and condone attacks such as the anti-Semitic shooting at a synagogue in Halle last year.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-police-raid-banned-group-states-71398201
> 
> https://apnews.com/10a2111027787d02b54ffafa3ccf44c9


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *Far-right groups like the “Boogaloo” and “O9A” continue to attract troops and veterans*
> 
> ...
> 
> Though largely brushed off by veterans and service members as a group of has-beens and wannabes, the Boogaloo archetype that emerged in memes in the past decade has taken hold in the violent-extremist corners of the internet.
> 
> ...
> 
> As for whether or why those ideas appeal to service members or veterans, at least compared to the general public or to other professional backgrounds, Jones was not ready to make a determination.
> 
> "Veterans do pose a potential threat if and when they radicalize, because they oftentimes have access to - whether it’s weapons, or particularly the know-how to use them," including firearms and improvised explosive devices, he said.
> 
> ...
> 
> https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/23/far-right-groups-like-the-boogaloo-and-o9a-continue-to-attract-troops-and-veterans/


----------



## Weinie

Brihard said:
			
		

> Probably more a matter of who's actually dropping bodies and who isn't. The death toll in North America is fairly heavily stacked towards far right terrorism versus far left in the past few decades.



You are missing the point.


----------



## brihard

Weinie said:
			
		

> You are missing the point.



I dunno, from where I sit professionally, it's a highly relevant consideration when quantifying danger.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *'Escalating' far-right violence in U.S. to pose greatest terrorist threat: experts*
> 
> Far-right extremism is by far the most common ideology behind terrorist incidents in the United States, according to a new analysis
> 
> In a report released last week, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) analyzed 25 years of domestic terrorism incidents, finding that "right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994," outpacing terrorist acts by all other sources such as "far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda."
> 
> Furthermore, the report found that occurrences of these right-wing attacks have since grown significantly in the past six years, with far-right extremists perpetrating two-thirds of attacks and plots in 2019, and 90 per cent of all incidents between Jan. 1 and May 8 in 2020.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/7116354/far-right-violence-america-terrorism-threat/


----------



## Jarnhamar

Has there been any Far-right extremists in the US who have managed to successfully drive off local police forces from government property, set up defensive perimeters with armed guards and declare the territory a sovereign state?


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Has there been any Far-right extremists in the US who have managed to successfully drive off local police forces from government property, set up defensive perimeters with armed guards and declare the territory a sovereign state?



Lots. You're just being a tad narrow when you say sovereign state. Most simply say that the US has no jurisdiction over them and whatever they want to do which is pretty much the same thing as declaring a sovereign state. It's just that Lefties revel on putting labels on things and making fancy slogans while Righties worry more about where there next bottle of Hoppe's is coming from.

Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen

And Ruby Ridge and Waco and ... and 

and then follow the various links. There are too many to list.

Don't forget. Seattle isn't over yet.

 :worms:


----------



## Jarnhamar

FJAG said:
			
		

> Lots. You're just being a tad narrow when you say sovereign state. Most simply say that the US has no jurisdiction over them and whatever they want to do which is pretty much the same thing as declaring a sovereign state. It's just that Lefties revel on putting labels on things and making fancy slogans while Righties worry more about where there next bottle of Hoppe's is coming from.
> 
> Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
> 
> and here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen
> 
> And Ruby Ridge and Waco and ... and
> 
> and then follow the various links. There are too many to list.
> 
> Don't forget. Seattle isn't over yet.
> 
> :worms:



I immediately thought about those. I don't believe in any of those examples police officers were essentially pushed out of their own police stations and the groups in question set up shop in the middle of an American city on public property. In all of those examples it was on their own private property, or am I wrong?

I feel like there's a difference between private property and government/public property.


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I immediately thought about those. I don't believe in any of those examples police officers were essentially pushed out of their own police stations and the groups in question set up shop in the middle of an American city on public property. In all of those examples it was on their own private property, or am I wrong?
> 
> I feel like there's a difference between private property and government/public property.



Bundy was Federal Land. He'd been renting it for grazing then fees were changed and he decided that he could use "public land" as if it were his own. As part of this clown show they also "occupied" the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters near Burns, Oregon.

I say it again. You're splitting hairs on minor issues here. What you are looking at in general are people who defy legal authorities in order to have things their own way. IMHO there is very little difference between left-wing morons and right-wing morons. They both insist that the world revolve around them and whatever beliefs they may have notwithstanding the established order of things. Up to this point in time in America, right-wing morons are seen as a much greater threat to society and law-enforcement than left-wing ones. According to the FBI domestic terrorism is on the rise in the US:



> Terror attacks carried out by white supremacists and other domestic extremists have been on the rise in recent years. ... Its underlying drivers range from white supremacy to anti-Semitism to Islamophobia.



https://www.voanews.com/usa/2019-deadliest-year-domestic-terrorism-says-fbi-director

So far, Antifa and its ilk are a mere inconvenience to law enforcement albeit a definite trigger for the right. Let's face it, Antifa will have to go a long way to beat Timothy McVeigh's body count in Oklahoma.

 :stirpot:


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=FJAG]You're splitting hairs on minor issues here.[/quote]
That could very well be the case. 

I agree there's very little difference between left-wing and right-right with the right wing as having a higher "kill count" than the left.
They're equally shit in my books.

Right wing morons are seen as a greater threat, that's fair. 

I think the ability to cordon off a section of down town Ottawa and remain largely uncontested (so far) by police as more significant than cordoning off a farm or tract of land west of Wainwright Alberta. (parallels of course to Seattle vs rural Nevada)

What would have happened if a neo-nazi group condoned off a half dozen city blocks in a major US city?


----------



## FJAG

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That could very well be the case.
> 
> I agree there's very little difference between left-wing and right-right with the right wing as having a higher "kill count" than the left.
> They're equally crap in my books.
> 
> Right wing morons are seen as a greater threat, that's fair.
> 
> I think the ability to cordon off a section of down town Ottawa and remain largely uncontested (so far) by police as more significant than cordoning off a farm or tract of land west of Wainwright Alberta. (parallels of course to Seattle vs rural Nevada)
> 
> What would have happened if a neo-nazi group condoned off a half dozen city blocks in a major US city?



We're very much on the same page on almost everything here. 

Where we diverge a bit is on the tactics that the City of Seattle is using in simply letting this thing burn itself out or down before stepping in. I know similar tactics are used in other areas: for example British police when dealing/not dealing with Gypsy Travellers squatting on public and private lands; German police dealing/not dealing with squatters and anarchists in abandoned apartment buildings and the like. Those actually bother me more than Seattle because they seem to be systemic and could use some making of examples _pour encourager les autres_ while Seattle is more a one-of at this point.

So far Seattle is far from a storming of the Bastille or Winter Palace type of socialist revolution. I can afford to chill over this one.

 :cheers:


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What would have happened if a neo-nazi group condoned off a half dozen city blocks in a major US city?



When have Nazis ever marched "in a major US city" without getting their asses kicked?  

Last time that happened was 1939.


----------



## Blackadder1916

mariomike said:
			
		

> When have Nazis ever paraded "in a major US city" without getting their asses kicked?



East 86th St. New York City, October 30, 1939









Or Madison Square Gardens February 20, 1939









It's not all wishful thinking like . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCtvuIWvnEw


----------



## Brad Sallows

>I can afford to chill over this one.

The people who live and work in the "occupied" zones, not so much.  It's easy to be cavalier with someone else's rights and livelihood.


----------



## ModlrMike

Winnipegger trying to buy chemical weapon is caught by undercover FBI agent

Sijie Liu, 37, used the dark web to order toxin, tried to pick it up in Pembina, N.D.

A Winnipeg woman has been sentenced to six years in jail after entering the United States to purchase a chemical weapon. 
Sijie Liu, 37, pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court earlier this month to a charge of knowingly obtaining a chemical weapon and threatening to use it.

More at LINK


----------



## FJAG

The following is a translation from the original German in Stern Magazine:



> Restructuring in the Bundeswehr
> *As a result of right-wing extremist incidents: Kramp-Karrenbauer wants to partially dissolve KSK elite troops*
> Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer wants to fundamentally restructure the Bundeswehr special forces command following a series of right-wing extremist incidents. Part of the elite force is to be completely dissolved for this.
> 
> Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer wants to partially dissolve the KSK elite force after a series of right-wing extremist incidents. According to information from the "Welt" and the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung", 70 soldiers are affected. The elite unit should also be deprived of sovereignty over training. The second company, which is considered the starting point for right-wing activities, will be dissolved without replacement, the minister said on Tuesday of the "Süddeutsche Zeitung". This left the KSK with only three operational companies.
> 
> The CDU minister drew a critical conclusion about the situation at the KSK. The elite association had "become independent in part, also because there was a toxic leadership culture for individuals - it follows that the KSK cannot remain in its current state". Kramp-Karrenbauer wants to present the concept at a press conference on Wednesday.
> 
> *No international exercises and assignments*
> 
> Until a fresh start is achieved, the Bundeswehr special unit will not take part in international exercises and missions. The minister described the latest findings as "disturbing" and "alarming", according to which 48,000 rounds of ammunition and 62 kilograms of explosives had disappeared from the KSK. Now it is urgent to clarify whether sloppy records have been kept for years or whether war material has been stolen on a large scale, she said. Commander Markus Kreitmayr, who has led the association since 2018 and has clearly addressed the problems, should accompany the KSK through the reform process. "The wall of silence breaks," said Kramp-Karrenbauer. Kramp-Karrenbauer announced that a first balance should be drawn at the end of October. It is now a "probation opportunity" she told the newspaper. If the members of the KSK "did not hear this shot now, the question of reorganizing the KSK will inevitably arise," she added.
> 
> *Again and again extremism cases at the KSK *
> 
> The KSK has repeatedly made headlines with right-wing extremist incidents since 2017. It all started in April 2017 with a farewell party for a KSK commander, at which pig-heads were thrown, right-wing rocket played and the Hitler salute was shown. The Saxon police later found a weapon stash with ammunition and explosives at one of the party guests.
> 
> In January, the Military Shield Service (MAD) announced that 20 soldiers were suspected of being right-wing extremists. In relation to the number of troops, the proportion at that time was five times that of the Bundeswehr as a whole. In May, Kramp-Karrenbauer set up a working group to develop a concept to prevent right-wing extremist tendencies in the KSK, which she has now decided on.
> 
> According to a report by "Der Spiegel", an officer most recently addressed Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer with a sometimes dramatic cry for help. In the twelve-page letter , the captain complained that right-wing extremist tendencies were tolerated and covered up within the unit. References to right-wing extremist comrades within the elite association, which is around a thousand strong, would "be noticed internally, but collectively ignored or even tolerated for different motives".



https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/ksk--kramp-karrenbauer-will-elitetruppe-der-bundeswehr-zum-teil-aufloesen-9320512.html

See also: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8475425/Germanys-elite-KSK-commando-unit-partially-dissolved.html

(As a totally self-serving aside, back in 2012 when I published my first novel, _Allies: The Inquiry_, I included one character, a company commander (albeit of the 1st Company) in the KSK, Hauptmann Dieter Schäfer, who wore clothing and insignia indicative of one with Neo-Nazi leanings. Prescient or what?)

 :cheers:


----------



## Retired AF Guy

While surfing the internet came upon this FBI report about identifying individual terrorists and while it is four years old, I still thought some people might be interesting. And because the author uses both Islamic and non-Islamic terrorists as examples, I decided to post it here rather then over in the Islamic terrorist forum.  



> Identifying Warning Behaviors of the Individual Terrorist
> 
> April 8, 2016
> 
> By J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D.
> 
> Tactical and often strategic, terrorist actions also are attention-seeking; the audience can be as important as the target. These acts are intentional, instrumental, and predatory, as well as planned, purposeful, and offensive.1 But, they may be rationalized as defensive. For instance, young ISIS recruits may believe falsely that the West is at war with Islam and that all Muslims must engage in violent jihad against unbelievers everywhere.
> 
> Traditional violence risk factors—history of such behavior, psychiatric disorder, or drug abuse—are somewhat useless in predicting the risk of lone terrorist acts. Most individuals identified as terrorists by such risk factors would be false positives, wrongly labeled as such.
> 
> For the past six years, I have worked with my colleagues to identify patterns of behavior closely related in time to acts of targeted violence, such as terrorism.2 Targeted violence differs from typical violence—emotionally charged, impulsive, and reactive—encountered by law enforcement.3 It entails a decision to act violently against a particular person, group, or institution. Persons carry it out in a planned manner as illustrated by such acts as the San Bernardino, California, terrorist attack, which killed 14 people on December 2, 2015.4
> 
> We believe these patterns of conduct—warning behaviors—can provide an investigative template to help law enforcement agencies focus their attention on subjects of concern previously identified through intelligence gathering or other counterterrorism efforts. These behavior patterns can help the investigator step back and see the bigger picture, rather than focus on just one variable, such as the purchase of a firearm or one visit to a Mosque where a particular Salafist imam preaches violent jihad.
> 
> However, these warning behaviors do not predict violence. Officers should not use them as a risk-assessment tool, only as an investigative template. In fact, the rare occurrence of terrorist violence makes its prediction seemingly impossible. But, prevention does not require prediction. The purpose of identifying these behaviors is to detect proximal indicators of concern for law enforcement that can narrow the focus of an investigation, prioritize cases, and help plan a timely risk-management intervention.
> 
> WARNING BEHAVIORS
> 
> Pathway
> 
> _Subjects engage in various behaviors that encompass part of research, planning, or preparation for a terrorist act or implementation of such an attack.5
> _
> On June 5, 1968, on the first anniversary of the Six Day War, Sirhan Sirhan carried out the meticulously planned assassination of Senator Robert F. Kennedy. After months of preparation, he conducted the attack following Kennedy’s vote to sell 50 Phantom jet fighter-bombers to Israel in January 1968. Although not Muslim Sirhan identified closely with the Palestinians and viewed Kennedy’s vote as a betrayal of his people.6
> 
> In the 5 months leading up to the date, he secured a .22-caliber revolver, practiced at a shooting range, made at least four approaches—perhaps failed attempts or efforts to see how close he could get—to Kennedy in a public venue and, finally, shot him multiple times while hiding in the pantry at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, California, as Kennedy walked past him.7 There were 77 people in the pantry at the time, but there also was no U.S. Secret Service policy in place to protect aspiring presidential candidates until after this assassination.8
> 
> Fixation
> _
> Certain behaviors indicate someone’s increasingly pathological preoccupation with a person or cause.9 There is an accompanying deterioration in relationships or occupational performance.
> _
> Malik Hasan, the U.S. Army major who conducted a mass murder at Ft. Hood, Texas, on November 5, 2009, became increasingly fixated by his belief that the United States was at war with Islam. During his residency and fellowship at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C., he openly articulated his beliefs to other psychiatric residents, fellows, and supervisors.10 Hasan gave two presentations entitled “The Koranic Worldview as It Relates to Muslims in the Military” and “Why the War on Terror Is a War on Islam.”11
> 
> In the months preceding the killings, the fixation continued with efforts to avoid deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan by retaining an attorney; he also communicated via e-mail with Anwar al-Awlaki, an American spiritual sanctioner and recruiter for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) in Yemen.12 He inquired whether killing American soldiers and officers was a religiously legitimate act.13 The arguing and preaching stopped during this period, but clandestine operational planning likely continued.14 His fixation was a cause, but also was deeply personal because his grievance against the wars in the Middle East went unheeded.15
> 
> Identification
> 
> _Persons have a psychological desire to be a “pseudocommando” or have a “warrior mentality.” This includes closely associating with weapons or other military or law enforcement paraphernalia, identifying with previous attackers or assassins, or proclaiming themselves as agents to advance a particular cause or belief system.16_
> 
> Anders Breivik carried out the July 22, 2011, bombings on several Norwegian government buildings and, within hours, killed another 69 people—mostly adolescents—on the island of Utoya. He identified himself as a contemporary reincarnation of the Knights Templar, the militant spear of the 12th-century Christian Crusades against the Muslims.17
> 
> Breivik designed homemade uniforms, emblematic of his identification, to wear in photographs and also found an affinity for U.S. terrorists Ted Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh.18 He plagiarized the writings of Kaczynski in his own “2083—A European Declaration of Independence” and wrote that McVeigh probably felt as he did while constructing his bombs.19 Breivik considered himself a soldier fighting to free his people from multiculturalism and the Islamic immigration into Europe.20
> 
> Novel Aggression
> _
> For the first time, subjects commit an act of violence that appears unrelated to any pathway behavior. They do so to test their ability to become violent._
> 
> On October 22, 2014, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau murdered Corporal Nathan Cirillo, a Canadian soldier, and injured three others. Then, he attacked the Canadian Parliament, wherein he was killed by law enforcement. Three years earlier, in December 2011, he had walked into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) field office in Burnaby, British Columbia, and said he wanted to be arrested for an armed robbery he committed a decade earlier; no such recorded crime existed.21 The next night, he tried to rob a McDonald’s restaurant with a pencil, then waited for the police to arrive.22 He told them, “I’m a crack addict and at the same time a religious person, and I want to sacrifice freedom and good things for a year maybe, so when I come out I’ll appreciate things in life more and be clean.”23
> 
> Energy Burst
> 
> _An increase in the frequency or variety of noted activities—even if relatively innocuous—related to the target occurs, usually in the hours or days before the attack._
> 
> On January 8, 2011, in Tucson, Arizona, Jared Loughner tried to assassinate U.S. Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and committed mass murder.24 In the 12 hours before the attack, beginning before midnight, he dropped off a roll of 35-mm film to be developed at a local drug store and later picked up the photos, checked into a motel, and intermittently searched the Internet, using the key words “assassin” and “lethal injection.”25 He left a telephone message for a friend and, at 4:12 a.m., posted to his social media page a photo of his Glock pistol with the words “goodbye friends….”26
> 
> At 7:27 a.m., he visited two department stores and purchased 9-mm full metal jacket ammunition and a diaper bag.27 Later, police stopped him for running a red light; he was released with a warning after crying and apologizing.28 Loughner went home, then ran away from his father when confronted.29 He returned to a department store, then took a cab to the shopping center where Congresswoman Giffords was speaking, insisting on getting correct change for the cab driver because he only had a $20 bill.30 A few minutes later at 10:10 a.m., he opened fire, killing 6 people and wounding 13. He had taken the time to put his driver’s license, credit card, and money in a small plastic baggie.31
> 
> Leakage
> _
> When planning to harm a target through an attack, persons communicate such intent to a third party.32_
> 
> On August 8, 2014, Abdurasul Juraboev, a resident of Brooklyn, New York, and a citizen of Uzbekistan, wrote on a website, “Greetings! I am in U.S. right now, but we don’t have any arms. But, is it possible to commit ourselves as dedicated martyrs anyway while here? What I’m saying is to shoot Obama and get shot ourselves, will it do? That will strike fear in the hearts of infidels.”33 In February 2015 he was indicted with two other individuals and currently awaits federal prosecution for attempt and conspiracy to provide material support to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).34
> 
> Last Resort
> _
> Subjects demonstrate through word or deed a violent action or time imperative or display increasing desperation or distress.35 To such individuals, there is no alternative other than violence, and the consequences are justified.
> _
> On June 17, 2015, 21-year-old Dylann Storm Roof committed mass murder at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He killed nine African-Americans during a Bible study meeting, including the senior pastor and Senator Clementa Pinckney, and wounded several others.
> 
> Days after the shooting, his website, The Last Rhodesian, was discovered, including a manifesto.36 Roof had written, “I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the Internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.”37
> 
> Directly Communicated Threat
> _
> Individuals communicate a direct threat to the target or law enforcement before a violent action._
> 
> On December 11, 2010, Taimour al-Abdaly, a 28-year-old Iraqi Sunni living in Sweden since age 10, carried out a car bombing and then prematurely detonated his own suicide vest in downtown Stockholm, killing no one else. He sent an audiotaped message in several different languages to Swedish broadcast media shortly before his targeted violence.
> 
> "You have Lars Vilks—the pig Lars Vilks—to blame, and yourselves for these actions. Your quietness for the painting and your support for your soldiers, now understand, brought you to this unpleasant situation.
> 
> The Islamic state, may Allah protect it, and its people have now begun to fulfill its promises. And do know one thing: we are not—we are not a lie or imagination, we are for real and do now exist among you, Europeans. So stop your drawings and—stop your drawings of our prophet Muhammad [Arabic], withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and no more oppression against Islam or Muslims will be tolerated in any way or any means.
> 
> Last but not least, I say to all mujahedeen: please do not forgive [sic] me in your prayers, may Allah accept me as a martyr and my request from you is to pray [Arabic phrase] for me as the Muslims are so humiliated here in Sweden and other places in Europe that they sometimes pray for non-Muslims. And to all hidden mujahedeen in Europe, and especially in Sweden: it’s now the time to strike, even if you only have a knife to strike with, and I do know you that have more than that."38
> 
> INVESTIGATIVE USEFULNESS
> 
> Although these warning behaviors appear to be proximal indicators of accelerating risk in individual terrorists, further scientific testing is necessary. Some efforts already have begun. In a small study comparing German school shooters with other students of concern, five of the warning behaviors—pathway, fixation, identification, novel aggression, and last resort—significantly discriminated the shooters from the other students who had no intent to act.39 These differences showed a large effect size, indicating a strong relationship between the shooter’s violence and the five warning behaviors. Recent research has demonstrated striking similarities between individual terrorists, mass murderers, and active shooters.40
> 
> In two other studies, the Swedish Defence Research Agency recommended and outlined a method to employ three of the warning behaviors—fixation, identification, and leakage—to potentially identify “lone wolves” through the use of forensic linguistic analysis and data mining on the Internet.41 The warning behaviors also appear to have ecological validity—a real-world fit—across several different domains of targeted violence perpetrators, including German school shooters, German and American public figure attackers or assassins, and spousal homicide malefactors.42
> 
> The author and his colleagues are in the process of analyzing data concerning individual terrorists—religious and secular motivations—in North America and Europe. In a study of 22 European terrorists, five warning behaviors (pathway, fixation, identification, energy burst, and last resort) were found in more than 90 percent of the cases. In another larger study of 111 lone-actor terrorists in the United States and Europe, pathway, fixation, identification, and leakage were present in 77 to 96 percent of all subjects. Such efforts will demonstrate whether these behaviors have value as part of an instrument for risk-assessment efforts.
> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> These proximal warning behaviors can be used to make decisions concerning whether a case should be monitored or mitigated for risk management. The absence of all warning behaviors following a detailed investigation—always remembering that insufficient information does not mean absent information—would suggest that monitoring and intelligence gathering continue, but that active risk management for targeted violence is unnecessary. The presence of one warning behavior could indicate that active risk management should be pursued and specific interventions developed within the fact pattern of the individual case. Although these warning behaviors were developed to identify indicators for targeted violence, they appear to complement specific interactive patterns recently promulgated by the National Counterterrorism Center concerning ISIL- or al Qaeda-inspired violence and can function best as another investigative tool as further operational research accumulates.43
> 
> For additional information the author may be contacted at reidmeloy@gmail.com.
> 
> Dr. Meloy is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego, and a consulting forensic psychologist to the FBI.



Note because its length made it to large to post (including the Large Post forum) I deleted the endnotes. They can be found in the original article by clicking on the link.


Link


----------



## brihard

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> While surfing the internet came upon this FBI report about identifying individual terrorists and while it is four years old, I still thought some people might be interesting. And because the author uses both Islamic and non-Islamic terrorists as examples, I decided to post it here rather then over in the Islamic terrorist forum.
> 
> Note because its length made it to large to post (including the Large Post forum) I deleted the endnotes. They can be found in the original article by clicking on the link.
> 
> 
> Link



Interesting and useful. Thank you.


----------



## Donald H

In the photo of Madison Square Garden which was posted by Blackadder, there are two banners hung both sides of the stage. Can anyone read just exactly what they say? 
The reason for wanting to know is because it just may ring a few bells on a similarity to Trump's agenda. Or maybe not?

.... Americans ..... ... the free America

and

... .... ....... of Christian America


----------



## kkwd

Donald H said:
			
		

> In the photo of Madison Square Garden which was posted by Blackadder, there are two banners hung both sides of the stage. Can anyone read just exactly what they say?
> The reason for wanting to know is because it just may ring a few bells on a similarity to Trump's agenda. Or maybe not?
> 
> .... Americans ..... ... the free America
> 
> and
> 
> ... .... ....... of Christian America



The one on the left says "Read America's Fearless Press "The Free American"" an ad for the American Bund propaganda rag. It stopped publishing on December 11th 1941, things got kind of hot for them about that time.
The one on the right reads "Stop Jewish Domination Of Christian Americans!"
Do with that info what you will.


----------



## Donald H

kkwd said:
			
		

> The one on the left says "Read America's Fearless Press "The Free American"" an ad for the American Bund propaganda rag. It stopped publishing on December 11th 1941, things got kind of hot for them about that time.
> The one on the right reads "Stop Jewish Domination Of Christian Americans!"
> Do with that info what you will.



Thanks for that kkwd! Were you able to read them or were you familiar with the slogans?

So I'll give it some thought, but offhand "Stop Jewish Domination Of Christian Americans!", rings the bell for me.


"Stop Immigrant Domination of Christian Americans!"

I think I may not be able to do anything with the other one without reading their ad. If you have it, it would be appreciated.


----------



## OceanBonfire

3 years is a way too light of a sentence with what's been described:



> *'Antifa hunter' gets 3 years for online racist threats*
> 
> https://apnews.com/bae21d9b066e5469c0a914a283a0235b


----------



## OldSolduer

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> 3 years is a way too light of a sentence with what's been described:


In Canada he'd get three months and have to attend a program.


----------



## OceanBonfire

White nationalism/supremacy is resurging and now among the biggest threats:



> *White nationalism upsurge in U.S. echoes historical pattern, say scholars*
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-usa-extremism-analysis/white-nationalism-upsurge-in-u-s-echoes-historical-pattern-say-scholars-idUSKBN25V2QH





> *DHS draft document: White supremacists are greatest terror threat*
> 
> https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/white-supremacists-terror-threat-dhs-409236


----------



## mariomike

shawn5o said:
			
		

> *How an overload of riot porn is driving conflict in the streets*
> _Weak organization forced right-wing agitators to rely on video and social media. _
> 
> Joan Donovan
> September 3, 2020
> https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/09/03/1007931/riot-porn-right-wing-vigilante-propaganda-social-media/



This is in the news today. "Media bias"? Readers can form their own opinions.

"White supremacy is 'most lethal threat' to the US, DHS says",
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk01quEY60ugzIp611JqUJy5DNQTgWg%3A1599612965869&ei=JShYX7nKNPmsytMPsaqL4Ak&q=%22most+lethal+threat%22&oq=%22most+lethal+threat%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAE6BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOgQIABBDOgUIABCxAzoICAAQsQMQgwE6AggAOgYIABAWEB46BwghEAoQoAFQ5F5Y5YwBYIeQAWgAcAB4AIABnAGIAZsTkgEEMy4xN5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj58O7U7trrAhV5lnIEHTHVApwQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1599612987805


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> This is in the news today. "Media bias"? Readers can form their own opinions.
> 
> "White supremacy is 'most lethal threat' to the US, DHS says",
> https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk01quEY60ugzIp611JqUJy5DNQTgWg%3A1599612965869&ei=JShYX7nKNPmsytMPsaqL4Ak&q=%22most+lethal+threat%22&oq=%22most+lethal+threat%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIFCCEQoAE6BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOgQIABBDOgUIABCxAzoICAAQsQMQgwE6AggAOgYIABAWEB46BwghEAoQoAFQ5F5Y5YwBYIeQAWgAcAB4AIABnAGIAZsTkgEEMy4xN5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj58O7U7trrAhV5lnIEHTHVApwQ4dUDCAw&uact=5#spf=1599612987805


Do you personally endorse the 24,000 links presented in your post? The second one is revolt.tv, never heard of it, is it reliable? Another is hollywoodunlocked.com, a trusted source? I found more dealing with a site selling face masks called https://www.motorcyclegearexpress.com/face-mask-lethal-threat-girl-skull.html, but the mask has a snazzy name, Face Mask - Lethal Threat Girl Skull.


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:
			
		

> Do you personally endorse the 24,000 links presented in your post?



I endorse nothing. Don't want to be accused of posting "Fake News - Enemy of the People".


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:
			
		

> I endorse nothing. Don't want to be accused of posting "Fake News - Enemy of the People".


That's OK, that a specialty of the first link in your post, CNN. The Most Trusted Name In News. I spit coffee all over my keyboard when I read that and I don't even drink coffee.  :rofl:


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:
			
		

> That's OK, that a specialty of the first link in your post, CNN. The Most Trusted Name In News.



Isn't that what they chant at their rallies, "CNN Sucks!"  :rofl:


----------



## OceanBonfire

Simply not condemning says a lot:



> *Proud Boys are "emboldened" by President Trump's language, former member says*
> 
> ...
> 
> "When you hear the president of the United States saying things like that they should ... stand by, that type of signaling to be ready for violent clashes does nothing but empower hate groups," said Charlottesville Police Chief Dr. Rashall Brackney.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/proud-boys-trump-stand-back-stand-by-emboldened/


----------



## Jarnhamar

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Simply not condemning says a lot:






> Wallace: — but are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacist and militia groups —
> Trump: Sure
> Wallace: — and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha, and as we’ve seen in Portland?
> Trump: Sure, I’m willing to do that but —



https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-condemn-white-supremacists/


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, at the Department of Homeland Security....


DHS draft document: White supremacists are greatest terror threat

The documents are slightly different drafts of the same annual threat assessment, which is not yet published.

White supremacists present the gravest terror threat to the United States, according to a draft report from the Department of Homeland Security.

Two later draft versions of the same document — all of which were reviewed by POLITICO — describe the threat from white supremacists in slightly different language. But all three drafts describe the threat from white supremacists as the deadliest domestic terror threat facing the U.S., listed above the immediate danger from foreign terrorist groups.

“Foreign terrorist organizations will continue to call for Homeland attacks but probably will remain constrained in their ability to direct such plots over the next year,” all three documents say.


Russia “probably will be the primary covert foreign influence actor and purveyor of disinformation and misinformation in the Homeland,” the documents also say.

Former acting DHS Sec. Kevin McAleenan last year directed the department to start producing annual homeland threat assessments. POLITICO reviewed three drafts of this year’s report — titled DHS’s State of the Homeland Threat Assessment 2020 — all of which were produced in August. Ben Wittes, the editor in chief of the national security site Lawfare, obtained the documents and shared them with POLITICO. The first such assessment has not been released publicly, and a DHS spokesperson declined to comment on “allegedly leaked documents,” and on when the document will be made public.

None of the drafts POLITICO reviewed referred to a threat from Antifa, the loose cohort of militant left-leaning agitators who senior Trump administration officials have described as domestic terrorists. Two of the drafts refer to extremists trying to exploit the “social grievances” driving lawful protests.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/04/white-supremacists-terror-threat-dhs-409236


----------



## The Bread Guy

Michigan governor kidnap plot material moved to stand-alone thread here:
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/133096/post-1631265

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## OceanBonfire

With the Proud Boys emboldened by Trump, they and the alt-rights are trying to join any work related to elections:



> *Neo-Nazi and Proud Boys groups push Trump campaign poll watching operation online: Reports*
> 
> Officials in multiple states are taking aggressive steps to protect voters from efforts by militias or other armed groups seeking to congregate near polling places on Election Day, as simmering online activity indicates that some groups are trying to register as campaign poll watchers for Donald Trump's campaign.
> 
> In Michigan, an open carry state, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson on Friday announced a ban on open carry firearms at and near polls.
> 
> ...
> 
> The measures come as online accounts tied to neo-Nazi sympathizers and "alt-right" groups such as the Proud Boys have been generating posts that encourage supporters to join the campaign's Election Day operations, according to two new reports this week. That includes sending out links to poll-watching registration sites for the Trump campaign's so-called Army for Trump, an effort working to recruit thousands of supports to sign up as poll watchers for the campaign on Election Day.
> 
> In one instance, a Proud Boys-affiliated user, in a group that claimed to circulate to 1,800 people affiliated with the Proud Boys, shared the link to sign up, writing that Democrats "don't want us Republicans to be in their polls," according to the report from SITE Intelligence Group, a non-governmental agency group that tracks potential security threats online, that was released on Tuesday. A separate SITE report released on Thursday said a link was shared within a neo-Nazi channel that claims to have about 5,000 members.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/neo-nazi-proud-boys-groups-push-trump-campaign/story?id=73663331


----------



## daftandbarmy

Uh oh....

More Americans Supported Hitler Than You May Think. Here's Why One Expert Thinks That History Isn't Better Known

“They weren’t trying to push the U.S. into an alliance with Nazi Germany. They see that as outlandish, though they would have loved it. What they want to do is confuse American public opinion. That’s what we’re seeing coming back in the era of social media,” he explains. “Confusion means there’s no public will to do anything and in a democracy we rely on the public will to take action.”

But perhaps the biggest reason why it’s possible for the U.S. to have forgotten about this history is that its worst potential — a sympathetic politician reaching the highest levels of power on an isolationist platform — was never realized.

https://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/


----------



## Edward Campbell

There was, also, a substantizal anti-British sentiment in America, including in the US military.

Admiral Ernest King, for example, the Chief of Naval Operations, was a died-in-the-wool Anglophobe and, in 1941, because the Anglo-Canadian command recommended coastal blackouts he told state governors and mayors than they were unnecessary.

The Germans had a hard time believing their good fortune and some U-boats we taken away from the mid-Atlantic "black-hole" and sent to the US coast which became the new "happy hunting ground." Many, likely hundreds of US ships were sunk and, probably, thousands of American merchant mariners were killed because of his near criminal stupidity.

All becaus he hated Brits, ostensibly because of the Revolutionary War.


----------



## FJAG

Don't forget Charles Lindbergh.



> In the years before the United States entered World War II, his non-interventionist stance and statements about Jews led some to suspect he was a Nazi sympathizer, although Lindbergh never publicly stated support for Nazi Germany. He opposed not only the intervention of the United States, but also the provision of aid to the United Kingdom.[3] He supported the anti-war America First Committee and resigned his commission in the U.S. Army Air Forces in April 1941 after President Franklin Roosevelt publicly rebuked him for his views. In September 1941, Lindbergh gave an address stating that the British, the Jews and the Roosevelt administration were the "three most important groups" pressing for greater American involvement in the war. He also said capitalists, intellectuals, American Anglophiles, and Communists were all agitating for war.[4]
> 
> Lindbergh publicly supported the U.S. war effort after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the subsequent German declaration of war against the United States. He flew 50 missions in the Pacific Theater of World War II as a civilian consultant,[5] but did not take up arms against Germany, and Roosevelt refused to reinstate his Air Corps colonel's commission.
> 
> ...
> 
> In late 1940 Lindbergh became spokesman of the non-interventionist America First Committee,[155] soon speaking to overflow crowds at Madison Square Garden and Chicago's Soldier Field, with millions listening by radio. He argued emphatically that America had no business attacking Germany. Lindbergh justified this stance in writings that were only published posthumously:
> 
> "I was deeply concerned that the potentially gigantic power of America, guided by uninformed and impractical idealism, might crusade into Europe to destroy Hitler without realizing that Hitler's destruction would lay Europe open to the rape, loot and barbarism of Soviet Russia's forces, causing possibly the fatal wounding of Western civilization."[156]
> 
> In April of 1941, argued before 30,000 members of the America First Committee that "the British government has one last desperate plan... to persuade us to send another American Expeditionary Force to Europe and to share with England militarily, as well as financially, the fiasco of this war."[157] ...



See also here.

 :cheers:


----------



## Brad Sallows

There were some different sympathies in play leading up to the war.  For a time, Roosevelt admired Mussolini and some of what Mussolini was doing.  Walter Duranty gave Stalin some pretty good press, and was not the only American sympathetic to the USSR.  It isn't hard to find apologists for any distasteful regime, left or right, past or present.

I suppose that every person in the Middle East not killed or ruined by a new war today would, if he could know this to be the case, have something good to say about isolationists.


----------



## FJAG

> The Marines And The Racist Porn Actor Who Tried To Start A ‘Modern Day SS’
> Four neo-Nazis arrested on gun charges wanted to spark a race war, prosecutors said, and their potential targets included Black Lives Matter protesters.
> By Christopher Mathias Ryan J. Reilly, HuffPost US 12/07/2020
> 
> In 2016, Liam Collins, then just a teenager living in New Jersey, had a very specific vision for his life. He was going to join the U.S. Marines, get the training he needed, and then form a fascist paramilitary group that would use violence and terror to create a whites-only ethnostate.
> 
> “It takes a man’s willpower and heart to make a commitment like this,” Collins wrote at the time on a since-shuttered neo-Nazi web forum called Iron March.
> 
> Four years later, in early October of 2020, Collins was discharged from the Marines and moved to Idaho, where he settled down with a crew of fellow self-described fascists. The group was allegedly heavily armed, had conducted weapons training, and had even produced their own propaganda videos in which they displayed support for the violent neo-Nazi Atomwaffen Division.
> 
> But one day in late October, federal agents arrived. HuffPost first reported that three men — including Collins, another former Marine, and a porn actor — were arrested for a conspiracy to ship illegally altered guns across state lines. Although initial court documents offered no details of the men’s white supremacist activity, a superseding indictment recently filed in federal court (which adds new charges and a new defendant to the existing case) lays out horrifying details of their alleged racism and bloodlust.
> 
> ...



Read rest of article here.

 :cheers:


----------



## brihard

Yup, nothing surprising there. Violently radicalized white nationalists remain the greatest real terrorism threat, and unfortunately they have an easy and dangerous inroads into the military. This is going to be an ongoing danger that will not go away in our lifetimes.


----------



## ModlrMike

What makes it easy for them is that for the most part, they look, sound, and act like us. They just don't think like us, and that's the hardest nut for us to crack.


----------



## OceanBonfire

The differences between our southern neighbour's access to information and abilities to handle right-wing extremists compared to ours and where they're at with the current probes:



> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/myggland-rangers-armed-forces-far-right-soldiers-odin-1.5831273


----------



## CBH99

I remember one of the only heated arguments I ever had with my dad and his wife (Not my mom) was years ago, back when Islamic extremism was a constant focus of the news.  (I'm not part of the family anymore, so this really is bygones)

My # 1 pet peeve is people who allow their thoughts and opinions to not just be influenced, but completely dictacted, by the mainstream media.  And as they get older, I've realized it's not a hill worth dying on.  Mainstream media will tell them what to be scared of, and what to think - and to suggest otherwise makes me the odd one out.   :facepalm:


There was a news blurb about some car bombing or some nonsense, and the conversation focused around Islamic terrorism.  I was very much on the opposing side, pointing out numerous examples of terrorist incidents - or acts of extreme violence against innocent people (since apparently the world terrorism only applied to who the news said was a terrorist) - about how terrorism really doesn't have a race.

The conversation went back & forth, and was pretty heated.  Decent argument.

And at one point, one of them said "Not every Muslim is a terrorist.  But every terrorist is a Muslim."



WTF did I just hear a family member say?  Excuse me?  That - to this day - is literally one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.  

Right wing extremism is a real threat.  As are active shooters in schools, malls, etc.  As are folks who bomb abortion clinics & government buildings.  Extreme beliefs that allow one to feel justified in hurting others is dangerous & crazy.




On the other hand, how do we feel about Canadian authorities not having as much leeway in terms of investigating these kinds of things as our US friends?

On the one hand, it could be viewed as a good thing that our government is restricted in being able to investigate / spy on citizens.  On the other hand, it could put us at a real tactical disadvantage in terms of detecting/preventing threats.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=CBH99] back when Islamic extremism was a constant focus of the news.  
[/quote]

It's not a constant focus in the news anymore but it doesn't look like it's for lack of activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2020


----------



## Cloud Cover

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's not a constant focus in the news anymore but it doesn't look like it's for lack of activity.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2020



It’s been a shitty year.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The enemy of my enemy ....


> Benjamin Ryan Teeter, a member of the ‘Boogaloo Bois’ movement, pleaded guilty Wednesday to a charge of conspiracy to provide material support and resources, namely property, services and weapons to Hamas’ al-Qassam Brigades, a U.S. Department of State designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO).
> 
> As previously covered on FDD’s Long War Journal, Teeter, along with another ‘Boogaloo Bois’ member, Michael Robert Solomon, were arrested and charged by the U.S. Department of Justice on Sept. 4.
> 
> Teeter and Solomon were initially investigated by the FBI in May after a witness who interacted with the pair alleged Solomon carried firearms openly in a Minneapolis neighborhood during the nationwide protests that were sparked by the killing of George Floyd.
> 
> In June, the FBI received information from a confidential source who Solomon and Teeter believed was a member of Hamas. In audio recordings, the pair conveyed their support for Hamas’ anti-U.S. government view – which closely aligned with the view of their own movement.
> 
> According to the DOJ publication, the pair communicated the idea of becoming “mercenaries” for Hamas as a way to raise funds for the ‘Boogaloo Bois’ movement, which included funding for recruitment and the purchase of land for a training compound.
> 
> Additionally, the two also negotiated the sale of gun suppressors and a “drop in auto sear” — a device that converts semi-automatic weapons into illegal machine guns.
> 
> Teeter acknowledged during his court hearing on Wednesday that he believed the suppressors were intended for Hamas’ military wing, al-Qassam Brigades ...



The latest, via Google News:  pleads guilty to "conspiracy to provide material support and resources, namely property, services and weapons, to Hamas, a designated foreign terrorist organization".


----------



## OceanBonfire

The investigation was started with the Canadian who got arrested when he tried to visit the Ohio teen:



> FBI: White supremacists plotted attack on US power grid​White supremacists plotted to attack power stations in the southeastern U.S., and an Ohio teenager who allegedly shared the plan said he wanted the group to be “operational” on a fast-tracked timeline if President Donald Trump were to lose his re-election bid, the FBI alleges in an affidavit that was mistakenly unsealed.
> 
> The teen was in a text group with more than a dozen people in the fall of 2019 when he introduced the idea of saving money to buy a ranch where they could participate in militant training, according to the affidavit, which was filed under seal along with a search warrant application in Wisconsin’s Eastern U.S. District Court in March. The documents were inadvertently unsealed last week before the mistake was discovered and they were quickly sealed again.
> 
> The teenager wanted the group to be “operational” by the 2024 election because he believed it was likely a Democrat would win, but “the timeline for being operational would accelerate if President Trump lost the 2020 election,” according to the affidavit. An informant told investigators that the teen “definitely wanted to be operational for violence, but also activism.”
> 
> ...
> 
> This investigation apparently began after a fourth man, from Canada, was stopped while trying to enter the U.S. The man told border agents that he was going to visit the Ohio teen, whom he had recently met over an encrypted app, according to the affidavit. Agents found Nazi and white supremacist images on his phone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FBI: White supremacists plotted attack on US power grid
> 
> 
> MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — White supremacists plotted to attack power stations in the southeastern U.S., and an Ohio teenager who allegedly shared the plan said he wanted the group to be “operational” on a fast-tracked timeline if President Donald Trump were to lose his re-election bid, the FBI alleges...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


----------



## MilEME09

'Intentional attack' on CO gas lines leaves thousands without heat
					

Thousands of Aspen, Colo. residents and businesses are without heat or hot water amid freezing temperatures due to an attack on gas service lines over the




					americanmilitarynews.com
				




Eco terrorism strikes in the dead of winter in Colorado


----------



## dapaterson

Apparently local police and the FBI were tipped off more than a year ago that Anthony Quinn Warner was building a bomb in his RV.



> On Aug. 21, 2019, the girlfriend told Nashville police that Warner "was building bombs in the RV trailer at his residence," the MNPD report states. Nashville police then forwarded the information to the FBI.











						Girlfriend warned Nashville police Anthony Warner was building bomb a year ago, report shows
					

Nashville police got a report 16 months before a bomb exploded in the city on Christmas that a man named in the blast was building a device in his RV.



					www.tennessean.com


----------



## sher_singh

Franco A was a lieutenant in the German army. He posed as a Syrian refugee – and got away with it. For 16 months he lived a double life. Prosecutors say he planned a terror attack that would be blamed on his refugee alter ego and unleash a national crisis

Franco A’s arrest was a wake-up call for the German authorities long blind to far-right infiltration of their institutions. His superiors promoted him even after he detailed his views in a master’s thesis. He spoke publicly at least once at a far-right event


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1343843989695438848


----------



## FM07

sher_singh said:


> Franco A was a lieutenant in the German army. He posed as a Syrian refugee – and got away with it. For 16 months he lived a double life. Prosecutors say he planned a terror attack that would be blamed on his refugee alter ego and unleash a national crisis
> 
> Franco A’s arrest was a wake-up call for the German authorities long blind to far-right infiltration of their institutions. His superiors promoted him even after he detailed his views in a master’s thesis. He spoke publicly at least once at a far-right event
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1343843989695438848


The *bundeswehr* has a  not so secret problem with far-right extremists and anti-semitism in their ranks. (Concerning given their history) Ursula Von Der Leyen was the defense minister who presided over the dismantling of some of the more nefarious elements in their special forces during her tenure a few years back.

Francos cases is not surprising given the underbelly of hate that is still very alive in European culture today.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Always thought we should be more strict to contain this pandemic:









						Long pandemic could add to extremism, decline in democracy: report
					

A new research report by the Department of National Defence suggests the longer the COVID-19 pandemic rages, the stronger right-wing extremism and other threats in Canada and around the world are likely to become.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Coronavirus pandemic may cause decline in democracy, rise in extremist groups: report - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The longer the COVID-19 pandemic rages, the stronger right-wing extremism and other threats in Canada and around the world are likely to become, a new report says.




					globalnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dnd-defence-report-extremism-pandemic-1.5862945


----------



## Jarnhamar

Upcoming courts martial - Canada.ca
					

List of upcoming courts martial by date and/or by province.




					www.canada.ca
				




Looking at the list of up coming courts martial a certain pattern of behavior sticks out.


----------



## dapaterson

Yeah... the military judges are still using Leading Seaman / Master Seaman because the table of ranks has never been properly amended.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the White House press office yesterday ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

dapaterson said:


> Yeah... the military judges are still using Leading Seaman / Master Seaman because the table of ranks has never been properly amended.


Thinking hate speech?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Thinking hate speech?


I'm seeing way more sexual assault & assault (as well as the 129 catch-all), other than "used provoking speeches toward a person subject to the Code of Service Discipline, tending to cause a quarrel" on the version I'm looking at - unless you know more details than the record I'm looking at shows.


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnewstbay said:


> I'm seeing way more sexual assault & assault (as well as the 129 catch-all), other than "used provoking speeches toward a person subject to the Code of Service Discipline, tending to cause a quarrel" on the version I'm looking at - unless you know more details than the record I'm looking at shows.


Exactly my observation. We still seem to be struggling with this whole don't sexually assault people thing. 

If there's this big extremism problem in the CAF that we keep hearing about it's either not being taken seriously enough to investigate and punish, or they extremists are hiding it really well (both possible..)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> If there's this big extremism problem in the CAF that we keep hearing about it's either not being taken seriously enough to investigate and punish, or they extremists are hiding it really well (both possible..)


True dat -- some might say if it took as long as it has to deal with sexual assault, with some saying "it's just a rotten few" or "latest flavour of the month" all along the way, flicking _other_ switches may not happen overnight either.


----------



## OceanBonfire

I hope we can quash them before they become more powerful:



> Farber said he was worried about the long-term impact of the assault on the U.S. Capitol.
> 
> “This is probably the most significant victory for the far right in modern history,” he said. “This is a serious moment.”
> 
> He said the incident could be used to radicalize a new generation with a narrative about how the far right almost succeeded in seizing state power.
> 
> “This will be one of those legacy far-right stories that will be used for recruitment,” he said.
> 
> NDP leader Jagmeet Singh called for the Proud Boys to be listed as a terrorist group in Canada, saying the group had “helped execute” the Capitol attack.
> 
> According to a Canadian military report, the Proud Boys are “an extremist conservative group that uses confrontational and at times violent tactics to promote its goals.”
> 
> It is “openly Islamophobic and misogynistic” and “has an active and physical presence” in the U.S. and Canada, the Canadian Armed Forces report on hate and racist groups said.











						Prominent far-right groups were part of U.S. Capitol mob - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and Three Percenters were among the right-wing extremist groups represented at Wednesday's events in Washington, D.C.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## FJAG

OceanBonfire said:


> I hope we can quash them before they become more powerful:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prominent far-right groups were part of U.S. Capitol mob - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and Three Percenters were among the right-wing extremist groups represented at Wednesday's events in Washington, D.C.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Not really possible IMHO.

The US believes in individual freedom to think as you wish regardless as to how repugnant your thoughts may be to society. The crossover point is taking actions (or conspiring to take such actions) which are illegal. It's virtually impossible to eradicate a belief system.

The standard practice is surveillance and police action once they cross over to conspiring to take illegal actions.

🍻


----------



## PuckChaser

If you're posting about the 6 Jan 2020 events, there's a thread for that. We don't need that discussion spilling into 15 other areas on the board.

- Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:


> Not really possible IMHO.
> 
> The US believes in individual freedom to think as you wish regardless as to how repugnant your thoughts may be to society. The crossover point is taking actions (or conspiring to take such actions) which are illegal. It's virtually impossible to eradicate a belief system.
> 
> The standard practice is surveillance and police action once they cross over to conspiring to take illegal actions.
> 
> 🍻


Or counselling or inciting others, for that matter. Which is where the really challenging discourse around the role of companies that host third party content will continue to come up - and will become increasingly partisanised.

I think we’ll see hard-right social media ‘shrink’ as they face deplatforming, as we’re now seeing. There will be less of an open space for the ‘keyboard warriors’ who may be radicalized but not sufficiently motivated to learn new things or act. Unfortunately there’s already a well established network of those willing to be (or at least actively prepare to be) violent and already accustomed to having to communicate surreptitiously. The very small proportion of the mass of currently angry hard-right types who are willing to take those next steps will find others willing to teach them how to use encrypted messaging, or dark web fora less prone to being taken down.


----------



## FJAG

brihard said:


> Or counselling or inciting others, for that matter. Which is where the really challenging discourse around the role of companies that host third party content will continue to come up - and will become increasingly partisanised.
> 
> I think we’ll see hard-right social media ‘shrink’ as they face deplatforming, as we’re now seeing. There will be less of an open space for the ‘keyboard warriors’ who may be radicalized but not sufficiently motivated to learn new things or act. Unfortunately there’s already a well established network of those willing to be (or at least actively prepare to be) violent and already accustomed to having to communicate surreptitiously. The very small proportion of the mass of currently angry hard-right types who are willing to take those next steps will find others willing to teach them how to use encrypted messaging, or dark web fora less prone to being taken down.


Well the FBI has been warning everyone for years about the security threat that these various groups are. Now folks are listening and there will be a much more receptive audience working at DoJ, Homeland etc. 

I've always felt that these radical sites are a good source of intelligence. Maybe now there will be more resources thrown at collating and analysis and the ever popular FBI SWAT teams.

🍻


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The far-right in the West (not just America either) is becoming more organized, politically and economically.  Some of these movements are basically mainstream now, at least in the US. 

It also transcends race at this point in time.  The leader of the Proud Boys in the US for instance, is a brown guy. 

I personally think doing things like banning people from social media and limiting freedom of speech is going to have the opposite effect of what is intended.  Strategically, banning Trump works in the far right's favour, especially when we consider that 75 million Americans just voted for him. 

You want to polarize society even more?  That's a very good way to do it.  Also, the Police aren't necessarily able to do their jobs effectively either. As we saw on Capitol Hill, many Police probably sympathize/support right-wing movements themselves.


----------



## OceanBonfire

FJAG said:


> Well the FBI has been warning everyone for years about the security threat that these various groups are. Now folks are listening and there will be a much more receptive audience working at DoJ, Homeland etc.
> 
> I've always felt that these radical sites are a good source of intelligence. Maybe now there will be more resources thrown at collating and analysis and the ever popular FBI SWAT teams.
> 
> 🍻



It's only 3 years ago that the FBI acknowledged the far right threat and that it poses a significantly greater terror danger than Islamic jihadists:









						US struggles to confront far right threat
					

The violent assault on the US Capitol by supporters of President Donald Trump underscored how unready the United States is to confront its growing right-wing extremist threat, despite years of warnings.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## FJAG

The FBI has been tracking this for years going back to KKK days in the very early 1900s. McVeigh did a lot to bring the dangers of this type of extremism to the fore and various reports back from 2008 and 2011 highlighted the dangers.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/domestic-threat

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2008/fbi-reports-extremists-military

🍻


----------



## Jarnhamar

OceanBonfire said:


> It's only 3 years ago that the FBI acknowledged the far right threat and that it poses a significantly greater terror danger than Islamic jihadists:


I bet a certain someone probably surfing Linkedin right now would give credit to Executive Order 13769 for that


----------



## CBH99

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The far-right in the West (not just America either) is becoming more organized, politically and economically.  Some of these movements are basically mainstream now, at least in the US.
> 
> It also transcends race at this point in time.  The leader of the Proud Boys in the US for instance, is a brown guy.
> 
> I personally think doing things like banning people from social media and limiting freedom of speech is going to have the opposite effect of what is intended.  Strategically, banning Trump works in the far right's favour, especially when we consider that 75 million Americans just voted for him.
> 
> You want to polarize society even more?  That's a very good way to do it.  Also, the Police aren't necessarily able to do their jobs effectively either. As we saw on Capitol Hill, many Police probably sympathize/support right-wing movements themselves.


Very well said.

Banning people from social media isn't going to be 'the' solution.  And if nothing else, it limits the police's ability to monitor what they are saying/planning, if they aren't announcing their nonsense on social media.  Monitoring a potential threat's social media activity is more helpful to law enforcement than just banning the person.

I'm not sure what the right call on Trump was, to be honest.


On the one hand, you make a very good point.  On the other hand, their fear that he would use Twitter to possibly influence or encourage similar situations elsewhere was valid.


----------



## brihard

OceanBonfire said:


> It's only 3 years ago that the FBI acknowledged the far right threat and that it poses a significantly greater terror danger than Islamic jihadists:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US struggles to confront far right threat
> 
> 
> The violent assault on the US Capitol by supporters of President Donald Trump underscored how unready the United States is to confront its growing right-wing extremist threat, despite years of warnings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.yahoo.com


I can assure you that the law enforcement/intelligence works has been live to this threat for years. While the US has indeed been inordinately distracted by fear of the Muslims hiding under the bed, this has still had eyes on and attention paid to it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> I can assure you that the law enforcement/intelligence works has been live to this threat for years. While the US has indeed been inordinately distracted by fear of the Muslims hiding under the bed, this has still had eyes on and attention paid to it.


They're also alot easier for intelligence agencies to penetrate. Hopefully that will mean it will be easier to bring them to justice.


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> I can assure you that the law enforcement/intelligence works has been live to this threat for years. While the US has indeed been inordinately distracted by fear of the Muslims hiding under the bed, this has still had eyes on and attention paid to it.


And ironically the radical right was able to achieve what the radical Muslims never could.  Shake the foundations of democracy in the US.  But hey,  take your shoes off at the airport before getting on a plane.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Something timely ...

(Source)


> DHS-FBI-USSS Joint Threat Assessment: 59th Presidential Inauguration​(....)
> 
> *Domestic Violent Extremists*
> 
> (U//FOUO) We assess that DVEs pose the most likely threat to the Presidential Inauguration or associated events, particularly those who believe the incoming administration is illegitimate. Recent ideologically -motivated violence in Washington, DC, underscores the symbolic nature of the NCR and DVEs willingness to travel to events and violently engage law enforcement and their perceived adversaries. Recent violent interactions between law enforcement and DVEs at these events will likely exacerbate DVE grievances, particularly militia extremists. The known standing date of Inauguration Day conceivably offers DVEs more time to plan acts of violence and open source reports indicate calls to violent action ahead of or on Inauguration Day. In particular, we are concerned about racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists (RMVEs), anti-government or anti-authority violent extremists, specifically militia extremists, and anarchist extremists targeting the events or perceived ideological opponents ...



Alternate site for 15-page PDF


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> And ironically the* radical right was able to achieve what the radical Muslims never could.*  Shake the foundations of democracy in the US.  But hey,  take your shoes off at the airport before getting on a plane.



Radical Islamists shook the foundations of democracy in the US on 9/11 and the US responded by a 20 year war on terrorism and almost a million dead because of it.  Bad as it was I don't feel that the Capitol Hill riot had the same impact in the US.


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> Shake the foundations of democracy in the US.


On Sept. 11, 2001, Members of Congress came together that evening on the steps of the Capitol. After a moment of silence, they broke into an impromptu rendition of “God Bless America.”

Senators stood by Representatives, Democrats next to Republicans, and the leadership of both houses gathered as a symbol of strength and solidarity. Unity.

I think it would have been comforting for Americans to see something similar on 6 Jan.

Not to argue the politics. Just an observation based on what Remius said.


----------



## Weinie

Remius said:


> *And ironically the radical right was able to achieve what the radical Muslims never could.  Shake the foundations of democracy in the US.  But hey,  take your shoes off at the airport before getting on a plane.*


And ironically the U.S. went through a similar spasm 50 years ago in 1950 when the term McCarthyism was coined and his ideology was widespread. Indigenous communists, as identified by McCarthy, were far more insidious than actual threats from the USSR and his obssesion caused massive upheavals, legal actions, and convolutions. But hey, who cares if your life is ruined by an ideologue.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:


> Radical Islamists shook the foundations of democracy in the US on 9/11 and the US responded by a 20 year war on terrorism and almost a million dead because of it.  Bad as it was I don't feel that the Capitol Hill riot had the same impact in the US.


That action had the opposite effect and actually united the country.  I mentioned nothing of what had a greater impact.  One was an attack by foreigners directed at Americans.    The insurrection on Jan 6th was an attack on America by Americans.   Crazy foreigners that hate the US I can understand.  Crazy home grown radicals less so.


----------



## brihard

The Bread Guy said:


> Something timely ...
> 
> (Source)
> 
> 
> Alternate site for 15-page PDF


Yup, that was posted previously either in this thread or another one.

Personally I'm a bit jaded towards UNCLASS threat assessments anymore.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Remius said:


> And ironically the radical right was able to achieve what the radical Muslims never could.  Shake the foundations of democracy in the US.  But hey,  take your shoes off at the airport before getting on a plane.


I think this comment does a real big disservice to just how much damage Radical Islam has done to the United States.





I also think that the rise of Right-wing extremism is a direct result of the United States inability to bring the "War on terror" to a conclusion.  It's essentially a counter-culture movement that exists due to what the United States has become in the post 9/11 World.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> That action had the opposite effect and actually united the country.  I mentioned nothing of what had a greater impact.  One was an attack by foreigners directed at Americans.    The insurrection on Jan 6th was an attack on America by Americans.   Crazy foreigners that hate the US I can understand.  Crazy home grown radicals less so.


We see it differently. I think the 9/11 attack shook the foundations of democracy in so far as the US thinking they're invincible and unassailable.  The 6 million Muslim Americans probably didn't feel too united with their fellow Americans either.

I get the jist of what you're saying though. To that I'd argue there's probably still a sizable chuck of the US that doesn't think it's a big deal, along side the ones who think it's justified. Some will say it's an all out attack on democracy, but I bet a lot of those said the same thing November 2016. And again January 2017. And anytime Trump Tweeted.


----------



## Brad Sallows

A big crisis is always welcome for the consolidation and exercise of power; a small crisis sometimes can usefully be pumped up to look like a big one.


----------



## Remius

Many of you are missing the point.  911 was an attack on America.  Like pearl Harbour was.  No one is arguing the level of Impact of 911 on Americans.  By foreigners.   19 of them to be exact.

the Jan 6th insurrection was an attack on a democratic institution and process. By its own people.
Again, I’m not discussing which had a greater impact.  

if you think the current crisis in the US is small and being pumped up Brad , lol, I don’t know what to say.


----------



## Remius

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I think this comment does a real big disservice to just how much damage Radical Islam has done to the United States.
> 
> View attachment 64406
> 
> View attachment 64407
> 
> I also think that the rise of Right-wing extremism is a direct result of the United States inability to bring the "War on terror" to a conclusion.  It's essentially a counter-culture movement that exists due to what the United States has become in the post 9/11 World.


Right wing extremism existed before 911.  The KKK wasn’t just a blip, the Oklahoma City bombing wasn’t just some one off.  

There has always been right wing extremism in th US. There is a history of groups, large groups of the population who don’t trust the gvt and feel it’s their duty to take action against it.

911 just gave them a reason to come out of the shadows more and more. I’m reading a really good book right now by Fareed Zakaria. His first chapter goes I to good detail about what has led to where the US is right now and the rise of populism and the far right coming out of the shadows.

911 as you say is one of those reasons but the economic fall of 2008 and now the Pandemic.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> if you think the current crisis in the US is small and being pumped up Brad , lol, I don’t know what to say.



It's overblown.  Some of the people doing the overblowing contribute here.  There are too many soldiers and too many barricades up in DC right now.  Too many people are agitating in the opinion pages for unnecessary and illiberal measures.


----------



## YZT580

This string started as an alternative to the fear of the islamic jihad that was dominating the news at the time.  Curiously enough, when the BLM riots started last year no one initiated a left-wing extremist-terrorism edition although it garnered plenty of comments at the time.  We seemed reluctant to tack the title of extremist upon them yet their actions were just as reprehensible as those of this past week or so.  So the question becomes: why do we differentiate?  Regardless of political or religious persuasion, any "terrorist" action is a declaration of war against our society as accepted by the majority of the society in which it occurs and, rather than lash out indignantly it might be worth exploring the common elements.  If we don't, we will never be able to identify the precursors that start a new group on its way and stop it before it becomes criminal.  

One common denominator is a charismatic leader who takes a sore point with that particular group i.e. the appearance of prejudgism is law enforcement and stirs up the group to protest.  But there has to be that leader.
A second one is attention.  Those involved in the group are given some degree of notoriety by the rest of the village, tribe, neighbourhood, newspapers and like it.  There are others but that is enough for the moment.
What is your reaction?


----------



## FJAG

YZT580 said:


> ...  Curiously enough, when the BLM riots started last year no one initiated a left-wing extremist-terrorism edition although it garnered plenty of comments at the time.  We seemed reluctant to tack the title of extremist upon them yet their actions were just as reprehensible as those of this past week or so.  So the question becomes: why do we differentiate?  Regardless of political or religious persuasion, any "terrorist" action is a declaration of war against our society as accepted by the majority of the society in which it occurs and, rather than lash out indignantly it might be worth exploring the common elements. ...



I don't know about others but for me the difference is this:

The BLM movement is essentially one focused on protesting for social justice. There are idiots and morons who hijacked the protests for their own reasons and benefits who I do consider terrorists but I do not blame the entire movement for that.

The folks we saw on the 6th  were deluded idiots and morons egged on by corrupt individuals to try to disrupt the proper work of Congress to ratify a democratic election. No matter how much some people try to rationalize it, these people were insurrectionists and coincidentally terrorists. I do not blame the mass of Republicans and even many Trump supporters for the actions of the mob at the Capitol any more than I blame the BLM movement for the actions of some outliers.

The point here is that I blame those who commit violent actions, regardless of their political persuasion, for their actions. I do not try to generalize that violent activity on the movement as a whole. 

🍻


----------



## dapaterson

FJAG said:


> The point here is that I blame those who commit *and incite *violent actions, regardless of their political persuasion, for their actions. I do not try to generalize that violent activity on the movement as a whole.
> 
> 🍻



Minor edit from someone who read The Caine Mutiny many years ago...


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said:


> The folks we saw on the 6th  were deluded idiots and morons egged on by corrupt individuals to try to disrupt the proper work of Congress to ratify a democratic election.


"Egged on" as in "provoked"?









						McConnell says mob that attacked Capitol was "provoked by the president"
					

McConnell said that the rioters who overran the Capitol were "provoked by the president and other powerful people."




					www.cbsnews.com
				












						McConnell says Trump 'provoked' Capitol assault, 'fed lies' to mob
					

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is placing blame on President Donald Trump for inciting the mob of his supporters who attacked the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

YZT580 said:


> This string started as an alternative to the fear of the islamic jihad that was dominating the news at the time.  Curiously enough, when the BLM riots started last year no one initiated a left-wing extremist-terrorism edition although it garnered plenty of comments at the time.  We seemed reluctant to tack the title of extremist upon them yet their actions were just as reprehensible as those of this past week or so.  So the question becomes: why do we differentiate?


On a strictly literal level, since the thread is "non-Muslim", anyone can post material on Antifa or anarchists here.  Mainstream agencies have also been tracking these guys and anarchists wanting to cause trouble, so more than fair to include here. As for your question, I'll leave it to those wiser than myself.


YZT580 said:


> Regardless of political or religious persuasion, any "terrorist" action is a declaration of war against our society as accepted by the majority of the society in which it occurs and, rather than lash out indignantly it might be worth exploring the common elements.  If we don't, we will never be able to identify the precursors that start a new group on its way and stop it before it becomes criminal.


Bang on - as well as what draws people to such actions.  The ideologies differ, but I suspect there's a lot of commonalities in how people get radicalized.


YZT580 said:


> One common denominator is a charismatic leader who takes a sore point with that particular group i.e. the appearance of prejudgism is law enforcement and stirs up the group to protest.  But there has to be that leader.
> A second one is attention.  Those involved in the group are given some degree of notoriety by the rest of the village, tribe, neighbourhood, newspapers and like it.  There are others but that is enough for the moment.


One more element to consider:  people vulnerable/alienated enough that they can be convinced that working outside the system (or trying to break it up) is an option.


----------



## FJAG

> Pentagon report reveals disturbing details about White supremacists in the ranks​
> https://www.cnn.com/profiles/oren-liebermann
> By Ellie Kaufman and Oren Liebermann, CNN
> 
> Updated 10:10 PM ET, Wed February 24, 2021





> (CNN)A Pentagon report on extremism obtained by CNN gives disturbing insight into how White supremacists are active in the military and offers recommendations to better identify domestic extremists and prevent them from serving.





> It details an instance of a former National Guardsman who is a member of a dangerous neo-Nazi group bragging about openly discussing extremist views while serving and separately describes service members describing how they recognize fellow White supremacists by their fascist tattoos and T-shirt logos.





> While the report, commissioned by Congress and dated October 2020, concluded that extremist views were not widespread and identified "a low number of cases in absolute terms," it underlines the urgency of the problem because "individuals with extremist affiliations and military experience are a concern to U.S. national security because of their proven ability to execute high-impact events." ....



See whole article here: https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/24/politics/pentagon-report-white-supremacists/index.html

🍻


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Remius said:


> Right wing extremism existed before 911.  The KKK wasn’t just a blip, the Oklahoma City bombing wasn’t just some one off.
> 
> There has always been right wing extremism in th US. There is a history of groups, large groups of the population who don’t trust the gvt and feel it’s their duty to take action against it.



Arguably, the very founders of the United States were one such group -- a group of men who didn't trust the government and took concrete action in the form of armed revolution against their lawful ruler. It seems to me that "right wing extremism" is baked right into the United States culture and even their constitution since the 2nd amendment was for the purpose of opposing the federal government (see, for example, Madison's comments Federalist No. 46).


----------



## FJAG

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Arguably, the very founders of the United States were one such group -- a group of men who didn't trust the government and took concrete action in the form of armed revolution against their lawful ruler. It seems to me that "right wing extremism" is baked right into the United States culture and even their constitution since the 2nd amendment was for the purpose of opposing the federal government (see, for example, Madison's comments Federalist No. 46).


I'm not so sure that I would agree that the founders of the US were distrustful of government per se. That they were revolutionaries is a given. That they sought to overthrow the British monarchy is as well. 

Once that was done, however, they were very much challenged in interpreting an enduring system of government which would always be one of the people and which would not be easily co-opted by some form of tyranny. One can almost read elements of communism and definitely libertarianism into their fundamental beliefs. In many ways the structure of their government was one of competing governments which kept checks and balances on each other (with the States having the larger power). It wasn't so much that the 2nd amendment was for the purpose of opposing the federal government as it was to aid the states' governments in keeping the very necessary federal government within its lanes. Remember the key words in Federalist 46 "But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force ...". It's not the armed rabble that has the power, but the people in arms under the authority of their local governments that have the power. Those who espouse the 2nd amendment (including the USSC) gloss over that element.

While the history of the US is one of caution towards their governments and keeping them controlled through frequent elections where the public can express its will, I wouldn't call it one founded by groups of right wing extremists. Right Wing Extremists have very specific and narrow views and while they put their focus on various local governments as if they exist in a vacuum, in reality what they're revolting against is the majority of the electorate who have voted that government into office. 

There is a world of difference between patriots who oppose a corrupt government that is oppressing the majority of the population and individuals with perceived grievances against a society in general which isn't conforming to the standards that the individual insists should apply to all. The latter often cloak themselves as patriots, like they attempted at the Capitol, but in reality they stand closer to the anarchists than patriots.

🍻


----------



## OldSolduer

Empires are not destroyed by outside forces, they are destroyed by internal forces.


----------



## CBH99

The problem with the situation at the Capitol is it wasn’t just anarchists & misguided patriots storming the building and committing all the nonsense.

I’m guessing a decent chunk of those people were just there because they could be.  “Trump just said to storm the building and he will join us?  Damn, don’t get to do this every day!”    Combine that with an incredibly toxic mainstream media, and it’s a recipe for stupidity.  

Are there extremists on both sides?  You bet.  But I’m willing to bet a good chunk of those folks were either stupid, or so brainwashed from their daily media they just showed up.  I would say extremely bad judgement, and an extremely bad political environment.


----------



## CBH99

The problem with the situation at the Capitol is it wasn’t just anarchists & misguided patriots storming the building and committing all the nonsense.

I’m guessing a decent chunk of those people were just there because they could be.  “Trump just said to storm the building and he will join us?  Damn, don’t get to do this every day!”    Combine that with an incredibly toxic mainstream media, and it’s a recipe for stupidity.  

Are there extremists on both sides?  You bet.  But I’m willing to bet a good chunk of those folks were either stupid, or so brainwashed from their daily media


----------



## CBH99

The problem with the situation at the Capitol is it wasn’t just anarchists & misguided patriots storming the building and committing all the nonsense.

I’m guessing a decent chunk of those people were just there because they could be.  “Trump just said to storm the building and he will join us?  Damn, don’t get to do this every day!”    Combine that with an incredibly toxic mainstream media, and it’s a recipe for stupidity.  

Are there extremists on both sides?  You bet.  But I’m willing to bet a good chunk of those folks were either stupid, or so brainwashed from their daily media


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:


> ... Are there extremists on both sides?  You bet.  But I’m willing to bet a good chunk of those folks were either stupid, or _*so brainwashed from their daily media*_


... which is one way extremists of all kinds get radicalized, for sure.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Combine that with an incredibly toxic mainstream media, and it’s a recipe for stupidity.


My understanding is he calls MSM he considers negative to him "Fake News",  because it is "the enemy of the people".  

One of the popular maga rally chants is "CNN sucks".

The former president and Fox News seem to have one of the strongest marriages in political show-business. 

But, he also approves of One America News ( OAN ), described as a "Fox News wannabe". He also endorsed Newsmax. 

Now that the election circus is finally over, there is speculation of a Trump-TV network for his fans. 

His followers can also listen to talk-radio shows like the late Medal of Freedom winner Rush Limbaugh, and maga-friendly internet bloggers.

Since he got kicked off Twitter, Parler seems a popular alternative with the far-right. 

NBC News had this to say about Trump TV:


> Trump TV would presumably sit to the right of Fox News, but be far more skilled at fear-mongering and race-baiting. Above all, it would be unwavering in its devotion to Trump. That is, it would _be_ Trump. In addition to threatening to lure viewers away from Fox News, keeping Trumpism alive through round-the-clock programming could help fuel a rumored 2024 reelection bid. It’s clear that the network would represent a way to capitalize on Trump’s popularity and finally properly monetize it as voters, viewers, and cable subscribers become one and the same.











						Opinion | Trump TV could deliver fear-mongering to millions — and fuel a 2024 run
					

The majority of America is ready to tune Trump out in 2021. But he still has millions of fans eagerly awaiting a new MAGA "season," whether it’s filmed at the White House or not.




					www.nbcnews.com


----------



## CBH99

I find the MSM pretty toxic both in the US and here in Canada.  Most likely Europe also (although I haven’t watched it)

Biased.  Twisted.  Fear mongering.  Either caters to the right or caters to the left.   Only reports short “sound bites” of stories with zero context or background info, which leads the general population to believe all kinds of things without knowing what they are actually talking about.  

And blatantly lying.  Even if by omission.   Honestly, I have no idea how what they do is even legal...

I wish the “news” was just that.  News.  Facts.

Don’t show 5 seconds of a video to create the optic the want.  Show the whole video and allow people to decide for themselves.

Stop creating huge racial tensions with headlines like “black man shot by white police officer.”    How about “armed robbery suspect dies after pulling gun on the police” - and leave race out of it.

I just wish they would present the facts.  Almost like bullet form.  Show videos accurately, rather than short clips.  

What they do now is painful to anybody intellectual.  (No disrespect intended to anybody specific)

0.02


----------



## CBH99

Random rant continued 😉🤷🏼‍♂️

When that RCMP officer was accused of “beating up an elderly native man for expired plates” - most MSM only showed like 5 seconds of them tackling him to the ground.  The physical part.

The Edmonton Journal, to their credit, posted the entire 10 minute video.  No narration.  

Let the public see for themselves what happened.  Which was very different than what the talking heads were claiming.  

Again... I don’t know how what they do is even legal sometimes 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## mariomike

Reswor said:


> msm is more than toxic


If you don't mind me asking, what is your source for news?

I guess because I am a "Baby Boomer", my news sources are relatively primitive compared to some.

I've always subscribed to our city newspaper. I also enjoy buying a copythe Sunday New York Times to read throughout the week. Although since the pandemic, I have fallen out of the habit.

Growing up in the pre-cable TV era, I occasionally watched the CBS News broadcast from Buffalo, N.Y., for American news. Especially during the Vietnam era.

CBC-TV for Canadian  news.

I don't watch it now that  I am retired, but "back in the day", CITY-TV was my favorite because sometimes they beat our emergency services to scenes! 

Any political news they covered had to do with City Hall,  our employer,  where thankfully party politics was not a factor.

I've always supported politicians who support better wages, benefits, working conditions and improved safety for us, and other working people.
Being municipal, the politics was non-partisan.

It wasn't until after I retired and read political comments on the internet that I realized party loyalty was so important to some.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> I find the MSM pretty toxic both in the US and here in Canada.


Enemy of the people?

In today's news,

CNN’s Jim Acosta surrounded by the crowd at  Conservative Political Action Conference ( CPAC ). “Get him. Get him,” one woman says.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365326749836402690


----------



## RangerRay

Much of the distrust conservatives have for the MSM was brought by the MSM. While largely factual (especially compared to the right-wing media ecosystem in the US and their imitators here), the bias usually leaked out in story selection, pursuing scandals affecting right-of-centre politicians harder than those affecting left-of-centre ones and shutting down debate in unsettled matters. Add to this, most journalists are typically from urban/suburban upper middle class backgrounds attending the same j-schools, much of this bias is unintended. It’s just the ecosystem they grew up and live in.  However, the conservative reaction has been to embrace fake news, conspiracy theories and ignoring anything that goes against their worldview, instead of fair and balanced reporting that they purport to desire.


----------



## mariomike

RangerRay said:


> Much of the distrust conservatives have for the MSM was brought by the MSM. While largely factual (especially compared to the right-wing media ecosystem in the US and their imitators here), the bias usually leaked out in story selection, pursuing scandals affecting right-of-centre politicians harder than those affecting left-of-centre ones and shutting down debate in unsettled matters. Add to this, most journalists are typically from urban/suburban upper middle class backgrounds attending the same j-schools, much of this bias is unintended. It’s just the ecosystem they grew up and live in.  However, the conservative reaction has been to embrace fake news, conspiracy theories and ignoring anything that goes against their worldview, instead of fair and balanced reporting that they purport to desire.



Media bias is always a popular topic of conversation,









						Media Bias [Merged]
					

As everyone who visits this site is by now well aware, monumental changes are about to beset the Canadian Forces. So far, only the print media has carried this story, with perhaps the exception of Canwest media [not sure about them - too Toronto centric for me to watch!!!]  The CBC in particular...




					army.ca
				



70 pages.


----------



## CBH99

MarioMike,

Just a quick response to what you mentioned above.

When I’m thinking MSM, I’m thinking CBC, CTV here in Canada.  CNN & Fox in the US.

I don’t mind the local news, I find it pretty decent.  But they have the advantage of only needing to fill 30 mins to an hour at most, whereas the MSM usually has to fill their 24hr network with “something”.

And that something isn’t usually great in my opinion.  And in the case of the US, it’s created a real divide & fuelled some pretty dangerous developments in society.  (Just my opinion)

Both right wing and left wing.  

I’m actually with you on some newspapers. I find them as unbiased as can be expected, and usually pretty good.  (For you younger guys - a newspaper is this big collection of paper that you hold with your hands and read.  No screen included.  For us well seasoned older folks 😉)


----------



## FJAG

I guess this is as good a place as others to post this:



> CPAC Organizer Denounces Critics Spotting What Looks Like Nazi SS Symbol On Stage​CPAC head Matt Schlapp angrily denied any resemblance, and touted the organization’s excellent relationship with the Jewish community.










> Critics on Twitter have been chilled by a major design element of the stage at the Conservative Political Action Conference that eerily resembles the insignia of a volunteer unit of Adolf Hitler’s notorious Waffen SS.





> A square whose corner juts out from the CPAC stage from connected back-to-back “check marks” bears a striking resemblance to the ancient Norse Odal Rune adopted by the SS unit, which would be particularly apparent from the stage side.





> The Anti-Defamation League has noted that after World War II the Odal (or Othala) Rune became commonly used by white supremacists in Europe and North America.





> In response to some 100,000 tweets about the issue and climbing, CPAC organizer Matt Schlapp angrily blasted the “stage design conspiracies” as “outrageous and slanderous.” He touted CPAC’s “long standing commitment to the Jewish community.”





> CPAC was forced earlier this week to cancel scheduled speaker Young Pharaoh after his anti-Semitic rants calling Judaism a “complete lie” (and worse) were revealed in the media.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cpac-waffen-ss-twitter-stage-matt-schlapp_n_603aee30c5b601179ebdf902

🤔


----------



## Kat Stevens

.


----------



## PL90

Interesting reads. 

The first article... They wanted to combat those they perceived as terrorists by becoming terrorists themselves... The irony.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Different Capitol, different threat ...

*"FBI: Florida man plotted attack on pro-Trump protesters"*

More on his indictment, this time of someone threatening to do something different at a different Capitol ...


> In a case arising from anticipated protests at the Florida Capitol last month, a federal grand jury returned an indictment today charging Daniel A. Baker, of Tallahassee, with two counts of transmitting a communication in interstate commerce containing a threat to kidnap or injure. Lawrence Keefe, United States Attorney for the Northern District of Florida, announced the indictment.
> 
> Baker was arrested by FBI agents on January 15 after he issued a “Call to Arms” for like-minded individuals to violently confront protestors gathered at the Florida Capitol in the wake of the January 6 riots at the U.S. Capitol. He specifically called for others to join him in encircling any protestors and confining them at the state Capitol complex using firearms ...


More from a local media outlet ...


> ... Baker posted an 18-second video on his YouTube channel showing him print out fliers with the headline, “CALL TO ARMS JANUARY 20TH!”   The flier said “armed racists” planted the Confederate flag in the U.S. Capitol and that they would continue to wage an armed coup of every statehouse in the country, including the Capitol in Tallahassee.  “We need ALL FLORIDA RESIDENTS to RISE UP!” the flier said. “Here in Florida we must circle the terrorists who attack the Capitol! Let them take the capitol and fight with the cops. SURROUND THEM AND TRAP THEM INSIDE.” ...


----------



## Navy_Pete

Putting this here under the banner of incel terrorism;
Judge finds Toronto van attack killer guilty of murder​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/van-attack-trial-decision-1.5933687

Glad they threw his defence in the garbage; what a load of BS. Also like how the judgement refers to him as 'John Doe' to undercut his desire to be famous.


----------



## mariomike

Navy_Pete said:


> Putting this here under the banner of incel terrorism;
> Judge finds Toronto van attack killer guilty of murder​https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/van-attack-trial-decision-1.5933687
> 
> Glad they threw his defence in the garbage; what a load of BS. Also like how the judgement refers to him as 'John Doe' to undercut his desire to be famous.


See also,









						Van attack in Toronto [Merged]
					

We could give her some useful information, like the fact that it was apparent to recruits that he should not have been there, and he had the presence of mind to ask to be released.  And we all know the first 3-4 weeks of Basic are a pretty intense period. So here is a guy that pulls back under...




					army.ca
				



5 pages.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sharing this latest Predictive Threat Assessment from New Jersey's DHS (4 pg PDF) mostly to share one agency's terminology for assessing various threats:

Anarchist  Extremists
Animal Rights  Extremists
Anti-Abortion Extremists
Anti-Government Extremists
Black Racially Motivated Extremists (BRMEs)
Environmental Extremists
Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs)
Homegrown Violent Extremists (HVEs)
Militia Extremists
Sovereign Citizen Extremists
White Racially Motivated Extremists (WRMEs)


----------



## FJAG

The Bread Guy said:


> Sharing this latest Predictive Threat Assessment from New Jersey's DHS (4 pg PDF) mostly to share one agency's terminology for assessing various threats:
> 
> Anarchist  Extremists
> Animal Rights  Extremists
> Anti-Abortion Extremists
> Anti-Government Extremists
> Black Racially Motivated Extremists (BRMEs)
> Environmental Extremists
> Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs)
> Homegrown Violent Extremists (HVEs)
> Militia Extremists
> Sovereign Citizen Extremists
> White Racially Motivated Extremists (WRMEs)



Just a small point. These threats are listed in alphabetical order and not in order of threat.

Based on Homeland security's Oct 2020 report:



> , racially and ethnically motivated violent extremists—specifically white supremacist extremists9 (WSEs)—will remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the Homeland.



https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/2020_10_06_homeland-threat-assessment.pdf

🍻


----------



## The Bread Guy

Something out in the past few weeks from NYPD (source)


----------



## mariomike

The Bread Guy said:


> Something out in the past few weeks from NYPD








						(U//LES) NYPD Domestic Violent Extremist Imagery Awareness Guide January 2021 | Public Intelligence
					






					publicintelligence.net
				




I had read of Proud Boys, but had no idea there were so many others.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:


> I had read of Proud Boys, but had no idea there were so many others.


Need to watch more CNN, they're currently burning/looting Portland and Minneapolis. Oh wait, that's Antifa.


----------



## mariomike

Never an excuse for property damage or personal injury.

As far as the political finger pointing goes, this is from the FBI. Prior to 6 Jan., 2021.









						FBI’s Wray says most domestic terrorism arrests this year involve white supremacy
					

FBI Director Christopher Wray said Tuesday that the agency has made about 100 domestic terrorism-related arrests since October, and the majority were tied to white supremacy.”I will say that a majo…




					thehill.com
				




My reply was regarding the NYPD source provided by Bread Guy.


The Bread Guy said:


> Something out in the past few weeks from NYPD (source)





> Recent high-profile mass-casualty attacks in the West have demonstrated the enduring threat posed by a wide range of racially/ethnically motivated violent extremists and conspiracy-driven malicious actors, including those inspired by far-right, neo-Nazi, and white supremacist worldviews. Due to this concerning trend, the NYPD Intelligence Bureau advises law enforcement to maintain awareness of key symbols, icons, and graphics associated with or appropriated by domestic violent extremist movements that- in some cases were observed during the January 6 deadly and destructive riot at the U.S. Capitol.


I have read of Proud Boys. Was not aware there were so many others.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

mariomike said:


> (U//LES) NYPD Domestic Violent Extremist Imagery Awareness Guide January 2021 | Public Intelligence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> publicintelligence.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had read of Proud Boys, but had no idea there were so many others.


In the age of the internet and social media, it's pretty easy to "create a group" with some imagery. I seriously doubt any of these groups have any large numbers.


----------



## Weinie

LittleBlackDevil said:


> In the age of the internet and social media, it's pretty easy to "create a group" with some imagery. *I seriously doubt any of these groups have any large numbers.*


Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured more than 600 others. Scale/scope does not matter when intent is evil.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured more than 600 others. Scale/scope does not matter when intent is evil.



FWIW, this FBI site is kind of interesting. At the bottom it also lists some recent events that are considered to be acts of terrorism:

The Current Threat​The FBI is committed to remaining agile in its approach to the terrorism threat, which has continued to evolve since the September 11, 2001 terror attacks. Years after these attacks, the threat landscape has expanded considerably, and international terrorism remains a serious threat. The threat of domestic terrorism also remains persistent overall, with actors crossing the line from exercising First Amendment-protected rights to committing crimes in furtherance of violent agendas.

Many factors have contributed to the evolution of the terrorism threat on both the international and domestic fronts, such as:


*Lone offenders*: Terrorist threats have evolved from large-group conspiracies toward lone-offender attacks. These individuals often radicalize online and mobilize to violence quickly. Without a clear group affiliation or guidance, lone offenders are challenging to identify, investigate, and disrupt. The FBI relies on partnerships and tips from the public to identify and thwart these attacks.


*The Internet and social media*: International and domestic violent extremists have developed an extensive presence on the Internet through messaging platforms and online images, videos, and publications. These facilitate the groups’ ability to radicalize and recruit individuals who are receptive to extremist messaging. Social media has also allowed both international and domestic terrorists to gain unprecedented, virtual access to people living in the United States in an effort to enable homeland attacks. The Islamic State of Iraq and ash-Sham (ISIS), in particular, encourages sympathizers to carry out simple attacks wherever they are located—or to travel to ISIS-held territory in Iraq and Syria and join its ranks as foreign fighters. This message has resonated with supporters in the United States and abroad.









						Terrorism | Federal Bureau of Investigation
					

To counter terrorism, the FBI's top investigative priority, we use our investigative and intelligence capabilities to neutralize domestic extremists and help dismantle terrorist networks worldwide.




					www.fbi.gov


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:


> Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured more than 600 others. Scale/scope does not matter when intent is evil.


Lone wolf attacks are quite catastrophic - the terrorist doesn't confide to anyone what his plans are and when they strike its a surprise. When the investigators look into the background its generally found these individuals were a bit "Off".


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

Weinie said:


> Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people and injured more than 600 others. Scale/scope does not matter when intent is evil.


I was solely commenting on why there might be so many groups, in response to MarioMike's surprise at how many there were.

I made no commentary on whether scale/scope mattered or not.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I was solely commenting on why there might be so many groups, in response to MarioMike's surprise at how many there were.
> 
> I made no commentary on whether scale/scope mattered or not.



This is illustrative of the current situation


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> This is illustrative of the current situation


Wait a minute - no Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects those guys...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

OldSolduer said:


> Lone wolf attacks are quite catastrophic - the terrorist doesn't confide to anyone what his plans are and when they strike its a surprise. When the investigators look into the background its generally found these individuals were a bit "Off".


So if someone on the far right goes off, they are far more competent and dangerous then their lesser learned counterparts on the far Left?


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> So if someone on the far right goes off, they are far more competent and dangerous then their lesser learned counterparts on the far Left?


I would suggest there’s an increased likelihood that someone of far right persuasion may have served in the military and learned some skills conducive to the execution of political violence. Those with far left views are probably less likely to have military service. The entire raisin d’être of a military is to kill people and break their shit in the defense of the national interest, under the lawful direction of the civil authority. So, if one has learned those skills, and then ditches the ‘lawful direction of the civil authority’ constraint in order to serve some other imagined ‘national interest’ (however ‘nation’ ends up being defined), then yeah, far right extremists may present a greater real threat.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Meh.  No-one can beat the lefties when they get worked up enough.  FLQ, RAF, Red Brigades.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Meh.  No-one can beat the lefties when they get worked up enough.  FLQ, RAF, Red Brigades.



I dunno... these maniacs were a good (bad) example of psychopathic right wingers:


The *Shankill Butchers* were an Ulster loyalist gang—many of whom were members of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)—that was active between 1975 and 1982 in Belfast, Northern Ireland. It was based in the Shankill area and was responsible for the deaths of at least 23 people, most of whom were killed in sectarian attacks. The gang was notorious for kidnapping, torturing and murdering random Catholic and suspected Catholic civilians; each was beaten ferociously and had his throat hacked with a butcher's knife. Some were also tortured and attacked with a hatchet. The gang also killed six Ulster Protestants over personal disputes, and two other Protestants mistaken for Catholics.

Most of the gang were eventually caught and, in February 1979, received the longest combined prison sentences in United Kingdom legal history. However, gang leader Lenny Murphy and his two chief "lieutenants" escaped prosecution. Murphy was murdered in November 1982 by the Provisional IRA, likely acting with loyalist paramilitaries who perceived him as a threat.[1] The Butchers brought a new level of paramilitary violence to a country already hardened by death and destruction.[2] The judge who oversaw the 1979 trial described their crimes as "a lasting monument to blind sectarian bigotry".






						Shankill Butchers - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Blackadder1916

Brad Sallows said:


> Meh.  No-one can beat the lefties when they get worked up enough.  FLQ, RAF, Red Brigades.



You give them too much credit.  But then, particularly over here in insulated (_from day to day European news_) North America, we don't didn't regularly hear about right wing (fascist, neo-fascist, good old fashioned NAZI . . .) murder and mayhem in Germany, Italy, France et al from the 60s onward.  The RAF and Red Brigades were real threats to us, the cold warriors who lived over there, so when they made the news (or int and counter-int summaries) we noticed them and cursed the "fucking commies".  However, some of the more horrendous politically (or racially) motivated murders and bombings were from the far right.  But they didn't usually pay much attention to foreign (NATO) militaries; after all, we fit into their image of conservatism.

The FLQ, as troublesome as they were in Canada, were amateurs compared to European terrorists (of any stripe) of the same vintage.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:


> You give them too much credit.  But then, particularly over here in insulated (_from day to day European news_) North America, we don't didn't regularly hear about right wing (fascist, neo-fascist, good old fashioned NAZI . . .) murder and mayhem in Germany, Italy, France et al from the 60s onward.  The RAF and Red Brigades were real threats to us, the cold warriors who lived over there, so when they made the news (or int and counter-int summaries) we noticed them and cursed the "fucking commies".  However, some of the more horrendous politically (or racially) motivated murders and bombings were from the far right.  But they didn't usually pay much attention to foreign (NATO) militaries; after all, we fit into their image of conservatism.
> 
> The FLQ, as troublesome as they were in Canada, were amateurs compared to European terrorists (of any stripe) of the same vintage.



Having lived in the UK during the 80s you were never really considered 'safe', especially if you were in the military, as the IRA had a healthy bombing campaign going on in mainland Britain. Looking under your car was a pretty routine 'drill'.

Compared with today, though, it seems a relatively less chaotic time given the rise of militant Islam and the random knifing outbreaks, and other random attacks. Those guys don't call in warnings to the police. I also see armed sentries accompanying marching troops in public occasionally, on the news etc, which is a good indication of the threat levels.


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Having lived in the UK during the 80s you were never really considered 'safe', especially if you were in the military, as the IRA had a healthy bombing campaign going on in mainland Britain. Looking under your car was a pretty routine 'drill'.
> 
> Compared with today, though, it seems a relatively less chaotic time given the rise of militant Islam and the random knifing outbreaks, and other random attacks. Those guys don't call in warnings to the police. *I also see armed sentries accompanying marching troops in public occasionally, on the news etc, which is a good indication of the threat levels.*


Yup. And check out Belgium and France.


----------



## Blackadder1916

daftandbarmy said:


> Having lived in the UK during the 80s you were never really considered 'safe', especially if you were in the military . . .



I was responding to the reference made about the most noted *European* terrorist organizations during that time when we were stationed in Germany.  I didn't then and probably still don't think of *the Britons* as European.  If they were proper Europeans they would drive on the right side of the road.

There were quite different attitudes about security among the different NATO forces.  We were probably the most relaxed (with some exceptions when the world situation or local activities dictated a more robust response), but then "we're Canadians, we're inoffensive and everybody likes us".  The Brits, having been attacked on the continent a few times by the IRA, had a healthy respect to man front gates and perimeter fences with armed soldiers.  The Americans, well, they're Americans and their military were an easily identifiable target anywhere in the world.


----------



## Weinie

Blackadder1916 said:


> I was responding to the reference made about the most noted *European* terrorist organizations during that time when we were stationed in Germany.  I didn't then and probably still don't think of *the Britons* as European.  *If they were proper Europeans they would drive on the right side of the road.*
> 
> There were quite different attitudes about security among the different NATO forces.  We were probably the most relaxed (with some exceptions when the world situation or local activities dictated a more robust response), but then "we're Canadians, we're inoffensive and everybody likes us".  The Brits, having been attacked on the continent a few times by the IRA, had a healthy respect to man front gates and perimeter fences with armed soldiers.  The Americans, well, they're Americans and their military were an easily identifiable target anywhere in the world.


Well played sir!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:


> I was responding to the reference made about the most noted *European* terrorist organizations during that time when we were stationed in Germany.  I didn't then and probably still don't think of *the Britons* as European.  If they were proper Europeans they would drive on the right side of the road.
> 
> There were quite different attitudes about security among the different NATO forces.  We were probably the most relaxed (with some exceptions when the world situation or local activities dictated a more robust response), but then "we're Canadians, we're inoffensive and everybody likes us".  The Brits, having been attacked on the continent a few times by the IRA, had a healthy respect to man front gates and perimeter fences with armed soldiers.  *The Americans, well, they're Americans and their military were an easily identifiable target anywhere in the world.*



Short (someone else's) war story: I knew a RM Officer who was attached to the US Marine HQ in Beirut, you know, the one that got blown up in '83. 

He arrived in the building and was amazed to discover virtually no standard security measures/ physical barriers were in place apart from, apparently, 'they wouldn't dare take us on because we're the US Marines'. He tried to make some suggestions, but they fell on deaf ears.

Shortly after he was posted out, they got blown up by a giant truck bomb. No coincidence 

Having said that, alot of UK bases were amazingly 'porous' too, and didn't even have a simple perimeter fence in place like you might see with any comparable CAF establishment, even after years of being targeted by the IRA. Cost trumps safety!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

One of the safest places to attack is a military base


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> One of the safest places to attack is a military base airfield of any kind



There, FTFY.

Navy bases are harder... you need to bring along a steward's rig in your bergen


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## Weinie

Colin Parkinson said:


> One of the safest places to attack is a military base


On Friday afternoon at 1630.


----------



## OldSolduer

Weinie said:


> On Friday afternoon at 1630.


Too late. No targets.


----------



## Weinie

OldSolduer said:


> Too late. No targets.


3 Messes full of targets


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## Loachman

Not for those bases where Happy Hour is on Thursday afternoons/evenings.


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## Weinie

Loachman said:


> Not for those bases where Happy Hour is on Thursday afternoons/evenings.


Advance your attack 24 hours.


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## RangerRay

Colin Parkinson said:


> One of the safest places to attack is a military base


One of the running jokes we had was that a van full of Libyan terrorists (a la Back to the Future) could drive through the front gate and the Commissionaires would wave as they drove by.

Edited for spelling.


----------



## daftandbarmy

RangerRay said:


> One of the running jokes we had was that a van full of Libyan terrorists (a la Back to the Future) could drive through the front gate and the Commissionaires would wave as they drove by.
> 
> Edited for spelling.



Or thousands of lesbians.... it only took a reinforced Brigade a couple of years to make sure they didn't get in (too much) at Greenham Common.

An important lesson learned by me when I was deployed there a couple of times was that it's safer to be in the 1 PARA protected area as most of the break-ins, and subsequent violence, occurred at the RAF Regiment controlled parts of the fence. 

Like all good predators, even rabidly fanatical protesters could suss out the weakest members of the herd 












						Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest from the U.S. Director of National Intelligence attached ....


> (U) The IC assesses that domestic violent extremists (DVEs) who are motivated by a range of ideologies and galvanized by recent political and societal events in the United States pose an elevated threat to the Homeland in 2021. Enduring DVE motivations pertaining to biases against minority populations and perceived government overreach will almost certainly continue to drive DVE radicalization and mobilization to violence. Newer sociopolitical developments—such as narratives of fraud in the recent general election, the emboldening impact of the violent breach of the US Capitol,conditions related to the COVID-19 pandemic, and conspiracy theories promoting violence—will almost certainly spur some DVEs to try to engage in violence this year.  The IC assesses that lone offendersor small cells of DVEs adhering to a diverse set ofviolentextremist ideologies are more likely to carry out violent attacks in the Homelandthan organizations that allegedly advocate a DVE ideology. DVE attackers often radicalize independently by consuming violent extremist material online and mobilize without direction from a violent extremist organization, making detection and disruption difficult.  The IC assesses thatracially or ethnically motivated violent extremists (RMVEs) and militia violent extremists (MVEs) present the most lethal DVE threats, with RMVEs most likely to conduct mass-casualty attacks against civilians and MVEs typically targeting law enforcement and government personnel and facilities. The IC assessesthat the MVE threat increased last year and that it will almost certainly continue to be elevated throughout 2021 because of contentious sociopolitical factors that motivate MVEs to commit violence ...


"Who's who?" rubric chart from the 4-pager also attached.


----------



## Blackadder1916

And in breaking news from London, Ontario










						Police say driver 'intentionally' crashed into Muslim family in London, Ont., killing 4
					

Police in London, Ont. have charged a suspect with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder after he allegedly hit five pedestrians because of their Islamic faith, killing four members of the same family.




					london.ctvnews.ca
				



Police say driver 'intentionally' crashed into Muslim family in London, Ont., killing 4​LONDON, ONT. -- Police in London, Ont. have charged a suspect with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder after he allegedly hit five pedestrians because of their Islamic faith, killing four members of the same family.

Deceased are a 74-year-old woman, a 46-year-old man, a 44-year-old woman and a 15-year-old girl. A nine-year-old boy is recovering in hospital from serious but non-life-threatening injuries.

The crash occurred around 8:40 p.m. Sunday when the driver of a pickup truck, Nathaniel Veltman, 20, of London, allegedly struck five people walking on Hyde Park Road near South Carriage Road.

During a news conference Monday afternoon, London police confirmed that there was evidence that the incident was hate-motivated and premeditated but didn't go into specifics as to why.

"There is evidence that this was a planned, premeditated act and that the family was targeted because of their Muslim faith," said Detective-Inspector. Paul Waight during the briefing.

Police also confirmed that the suspect wore a vest similar to body armor during the incident Sunday and that *potential terrorism charges are being considered*.  . . . 

(_more at link_)


----------



## mariomike

Blackadder1916 said:


> LONDON, ONT. -- Police in London, Ont. have charged a suspect with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder after he allegedly hit five pedestrians because of their Islamic faith, killing four members of the same family.​


My God.


----------



## FJAG

Un-effin' believable.


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:


> Un-effin' believable.


No. No it’s not, unfortunately. Why would it not happen here too?

I wish all the best to the police who will be turning over every stone to rip this little shit’s life apart right now, and I hope they get sufficient evidence of the ideological element necessary to support terrorism charges on this. I hope their family and community see real justice.


----------



## Loachman

The loss of life and injury saddens me, and the act disgusts me.


----------



## Loachman

daftandbarmy said:


> Or thousands of lesbians.... it only took a reinforced Brigade a couple of years to make sure they didn't get in (too much) at Greenham Common.



They weren't _all_ lesbians.

I knew a chap who used to go to lots of those, but not to protest.

It seems that a day of vigorous protesting works up certain other appetites that demand satisfying later in the evening.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Loachman said:


> They weren't _all_ lesbians.



I thought he was referring to 1 Para when he used the L word. 



daftandbarmy said:


> Or thousands of lesbians....
> 
> . . .  it's safer to be in the 1 PARA . . .


----------



## Loachman

Blackadder1916 said:


> I thought he was referring to 1 Para when he used the L word.


He might have been.

I don't know him *that* well.


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said,


> Un-effin' believable.





brihard said:


> No. No it’s not, unfortunately. Why would it not happen here too?


Brihard, I consider you an SME.  For someone my age, it really is hard to believe.

Not to suggest the 20 year-olds of today are any better, or worse, than my generation was at that age. Just different.

We were not exposed to alt-right social media.

We got our information from newspapers. And Walter Cronkite on CBS.

Only exposure I had to the far-right was some of our older guys at work were John Birchers. They liked to hand out their pamphlets,  bend your ear about how great the JBS was, and try to talk you into going to meetings in their living rooms. No thanks.


----------



## FSTO

These guys were all around when we were kids in the 60's and 70's. The only thing was they likely thought they were alone and didn't have a platform that they could talk and organize and have their view validated by other idiots. 
Today, well................


----------



## mariomike

Cranks only had "Letters to the Editor" of newspapers back then. Or hand out their pamphlets on street corners. Now they can get together online on Parler.


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> No. No it’s not, unfortunately. Why would it not happen here too?
> 
> I wish all the best to the police who will be turning over every stone to rip this little shit’s life apart right now, and I hope they get sufficient evidence of the ideological element necessary to support terrorism charges on this. I hope their family and community see real justice.


And I agree with you.


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:


> Cranks only had "Letters to the Editor" of newspapers back then. Or hand out their pamphlets on street corners. Now they can get together online on Parler.



I'm not sure if Parler is back in operation, still.

But they can, and do, use facebook and twitter as well.

So do left-leaning elements such as Antifa and BLM - which is an openly and self-declared Marxist organization that has caused well over a billion dollars of insurable damage and led to at least two dozen deaths.

Overall, leftist ideology has caused more death, destruction, and misery than any other around the planet.


----------



## mariomike

If you want to argue Domestic Extremism in 2021,


> ( FBI Director ) Wray reemphasized the growing threat of domestic extremism in his remarks, noting that white supremacy was the largest chunk of "racially motivated" violent extremism, which makes up the largest subset of domestic extremism overall.











						Wray Stresses Role Of Right-Wing Extremism In Hearing About Jan. 6 Riot
					

Lawmakers press the FBI director about the threat of domestic terrorism overall and what steps the bureau took to share intelligence with security officials ahead of the Capitol attack.




					www.npr.org
				




Top law enforcement officials say the biggest domestic terror threat comes from white supremacists.​








						Top law enforcement officials say the biggest domestic terror threat comes from white supremacists. (Published 2021)
					

“The department is taking a new approach to addressing domestic violent extremism, both internally and externally,” Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro N. Mayorkas told senators.




					www.nytimes.com
				






> FBI Director Christopher Wray says there's no question violent white supremacy is behind most of domestic terror attacks in the U.S.











						Domestic terrorism is 'metastasizing' across the country, FBI director says in Capitol riot testimony
					

FBI Director Christopher Wray says there's no question violent white supremacy is behind most of domestic terror attacks in the U.S.




					www.wusa9.com


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Blackadder1916 said:


> And in breaking news from London, Ontario
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police say driver 'intentionally' crashed into Muslim family in London, Ont., killing 4
> 
> 
> Police in London, Ont. have charged a suspect with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder after he allegedly hit five pedestrians because of their Islamic faith, killing four members of the same family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> london.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police say driver 'intentionally' crashed into Muslim family in London, Ont., killing 4​LONDON, ONT. -- Police in London, Ont. have charged a suspect with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder after he allegedly hit five pedestrians because of their Islamic faith, killing four members of the same family.
> 
> Deceased are a 74-year-old woman, a 46-year-old man, a 44-year-old woman and a 15-year-old girl. A nine-year-old boy is recovering in hospital from serious but non-life-threatening injuries.
> 
> The crash occurred around 8:40 p.m. Sunday when the driver of a pickup truck, Nathaniel Veltman, 20, of London, allegedly struck five people walking on Hyde Park Road near South Carriage Road.
> 
> During a news conference Monday afternoon, London police confirmed that there was evidence that the incident was hate-motivated and premeditated but didn't go into specifics as to why.
> 
> "There is evidence that this was a planned, premeditated act and that the family was targeted because of their Muslim faith," said Detective-Inspector. Paul Waight during the briefing.
> 
> Police also confirmed that the suspect wore a vest similar to body armor during the incident Sunday and that *potential terrorism charges are being considered*.  . . .
> 
> (_more at link_)


I am assuming he was wearing some sort of tactical vest, you would think the police would know the difference? Odd that he had that and no other weapons mentioned? I am also assuming this family had a regular schedule which he could plan around, otherwise it would be hard to prove the premeditated bit.


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> I am assuming he was wearing some sort of tactical vest, you would think the police would know the difference? Odd that he had that and no other weapons mentioned? I am also assuming this family had a regular schedule which he could plan around, otherwise it would be hard to prove the premeditated bit.


Not really. 

Just need to prove he wanted to mow down the first Muslim looking group of people he saw and that's all they need. 

The Toronto van attacker didn't need to know the schedules of all the women he ran over, just needed a gathering of women.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> The point I was trying to make was how different generations received information.



Yes.  Prior generations and people who limit their intake to "establishment" media receive curated information, plus whatever the employees think people should hear/read.  People with access to the web receive uncurated information and are exposed to better information, misinformation, and disinformation.


----------



## mariomike

Yes. Personally, I put more trust in Walter Cronkite ( for those old enough to remember him ) than some of the "uncurated" information on social media. YMMV.


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:


> Yes. Personally, I put more trust in Walter Cronkite ( for those old enough to remember him ) than some of the "uncurated" information on social media. YMMV.


The media back then lied and pushed their own agendae as much as as today's media do. There was just no competition from independent media to show the other side of things, cover those stories that they did not wish to, go into much more detail, or expose their lies.

The explosion of cell phones in concert with online video sites such as Youtube (unfortunately growing more and more censorious), Rumble, Odyssee, and Bitchute etcetera has been a news and analysis revolution. It's also helped to improving policing, both for the benefit of good police and detriment of bad ones.

That's why a look as widely as I can afford to rather than accepting what some corporation whose primary goal is to sell advertising wants me to see, read, or hear. I want as many different viewpoints as I can get.

The dinosaur media are failing economically because fewer and fewer people trust them, and because better coverage, especially of local events, is available from interested and motivated amateurs.


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:


> The media back then lied and pushed their own agendae as much as as today's media do.


Which brings us back to,









						Media Bias [Merged]
					

As everyone who visits this site is by now well aware, monumental changes are about to beset the Canadian Forces. So far, only the print media has carried this story, with perhaps the exception of Canwest media [not sure about them - too Toronto centric for me to watch!!!]  The CBC in particular...




					www.milnet.ca
				



70 pages.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

mariomike said:


> Yes. Personally, I put more trust in Walter Cronkite ( for those old enough to remember him ) than some of the "uncurated" information on social media. YMMV.


The man that single handily saved the NVA/VC from their Tet debacle.


----------



## mariomike

But, haven't we been through this already in our 70-page "Media Bias" super-thread?


----------



## lenaitch

Colin Parkinson said:


> I am assuming he was wearing some sort of tactical vest, you would think the police would know the difference? Odd that he had that and no other weapons mentioned? I am also assuming this family had a regular schedule which he could plan around, otherwise it would be hard to prove the premeditated bit.


Using the phrase "a vest similar to body armour" might be simply 'hedging of words' which is very common these days.  Investigators are very cautious and very cognizant of the future trial and there is a good chance a Det. Supt. has only been briefed on the investigation and not up on all the finer details.   Everything said or done is subject to disclosure and/or potentially usable by the defence.  Making conclusive statements of things not yet in evidence, regardless of how seemingly minor, can spark allegations of tunnel vision.  A defence that gets witnesses to walk back inconsistencies can try to play on the credibility of the overall investigation.  They only have to get a jury to think about reasonable doubt.  'From little seeds grow . . . '

We also don't know if he targeted these specific victims.  The area might simply be an immigrant-heavy neighbourhood.

Much multi-agency investigation will no doubt continue, but if this turns out to be an unaffiliated lone wolf who crawled out of his parents' basement, I'm not sure the addition of terrorism-related charges will do much for the prosecution.  First degree murder already carries a life sentence with the potential for consecutive sentencing (depending on how the SCOC rules on the case before it), and you don't have to prove motive - just that it was intentional.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> But, haven't we been through this already in our 70-page "Media Bias" super-thread?



Stop bringing up the false premise that "what we read/see in the news" is credible in other threads, and people will stop pointing out all the ways in which it is not?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Canada’s Trudeau vows to fight far-right groups after Muslim family slain​








						Canada’s Trudeau vows to fight far-right groups after Muslim family slain
					

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Tuesday promised to redouble efforts to fight far-right groups two days after a hate-motivated attack that killed four members of a Muslim family in the city of London, Ontario.




					www.reuters.com
				






> "We'll continue to fight hate online and offline ... (including) taking more action to dismantle far-right hate groups, like we did with the Proud Boys by adding them to Canada's terror listing," said Trudeau, due to attend a vigil outside the mosque later on Tuesday.





> Veltman appears to have had little social media footprint.




Sounds like someone might be situating the estimate.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Canada’s Trudeau vows to fight far-right groups after Muslim family slain​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canada’s Trudeau vows to fight far-right groups after Muslim family slain
> 
> 
> Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Tuesday promised to redouble efforts to fight far-right groups two days after a hate-motivated attack that killed four members of a Muslim family in the city of London, Ontario.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like someone might be situating the estimate.


Or maybe the suspect simply proudly stated what he did and why he did it to the police already.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Yea maybe. 
Trudeau definitely hasn't set a precedent where he uses a tragedy to smash through something very tenuously related right?


----------



## OldSolduer

Never let a catastrophe go to waste. I’m certain this is what JT is hearing from his voices in the PMO


----------



## Loachman

Do Muslims tend to fall into either left or right wings?

They seem to be more conservative/traditionalist than the average Westerner. As a group (and I realize that no group is monolithic), they tend to be more, and more seriously, religious.

Would what we normally consider to be terrorist activities committed by Islamists then, also, be considered "far right"?

I stumbled across something a few weeks ago that mentioned that such acts are also listed as "far-right" by some US agencies but did not investigate further and cannot remember the source.

I keep seeing "far-right hate groups" and "white supremacists" being held up as the ultimate boogeymen by certain politicians and media types, but little evidence of actual dangerous activity. I am far more concerned about the left-wing violence that I see - Antifa and BLM in particular.

I am also rather sceptical about rising rates of anti-semitism being attributed to "far-right"/"white supremacist" groups, when this rise seems to coincide with increasing numbers of Muslim immigrants in many areas - they are not exactly fans of Judaism.

There are violent extremists in any identifiable group, but it is only fashionable to go after one.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

According to this article it appears that the alleged killer lived alone, played loud computer games and got into arguments with his neighbours:



> *Nathaniel Veltman lived alone, neighbors say he 'played video games very loud'*
> 
> One neighbor, who identified herself as Chelsea, said that she had had arguments with Nathaniel Veltman over the 'constant noise' from his home
> 
> By Pathikrit Sanyal
> 
> Updated On : 06:14 PST, Jun 8, 2021
> 
> 
> [IMG alt="
> Nathaniel Veltman lived alone, neighbors say he 'played video games very loud'"]https://cheesecake.articleassets.me...9-11eb-9ba0-6bcee7db4fea_800_420.png[/IMG]The Muslim family of five targetted by Nathaniel Veltman in Ontario, Canada (Twitter/Anna Arbonheim)
> 
> LONDON, ONTARIO: The incident where 20-year-old Nathaniel Veltman, a White man, ran over and killed four members of a Canadian Muslim family, is being seen as a hate crime. Police in London, Ontario, said that Veltman, who was arrested after the incident, has been charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.
> 
> While cops have not released the victims' names officially, the dead have been reported to be Syed Afzaal, 46, his wife, Madiha Salman, 44, and their 15-year-old daughter, Yumnah Afzaal. Syed Afzaal’s 74-year-old mother, whose name has not been confirmed, also died. Their nine-year-old son, Faez Afzaal, is in the hospital with serious but non-life-threatening injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hyde Park, where the attack took place in London, Ontario. (Google Maps)
> "There is evidence that this was a planned, premeditated act, motivated by hate," Detective Superintendent Paul Waight of the London police department said. "We believe the victims were targeted because of their Islamic faith.” Waight also said that there is no known connection between Veltman and the family.
> 
> While the suspect does not have a criminal record and is not known to be a member of any hate group, his neighbors have said that he was an odd person. Speaking to the London Free Press on Monday night, June 7, some neighbors at his apartment building described Veltman as a person who rarely interacted with others.
> 
> One neighbor, who only identified herself as Chelsea, said that she had had arguments with him over “constant noise” from his home, where he allegedly lived alone. “I had a lot of fights with him and had to bang on his door and ask him to stop because I have a four-year-old and it was just constant, even, like, at 3 am,” she said.
> 
> Another neighbor, on condition of anonymity, said that Veltman, who had lived at the address for about a year, “just looked like a nerdy white kid, I guess, who played video games very loud.”
> 
> In the March 2019 mosque attacks in Christchurch, New Zealand, Brenton Tarrant, the man who carried out the deadly assault, was found to have expressed racist views. He was also found to be an avid Internet user and online gamer, who had few childhood friends. Aside from that, as an adult, he reportedly rarely made long-lasting relationships with people outside of his immediate family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Muslim man adjusts flowers at the entrance of the Masjid An-Nur mosque on March 15, 2020 in Christchurch, New Zealand. 51 people were killed and dozens were injured following the worst mass shooting in New Zealand's history after a man opened fire at Masjid An-Nur (also referred to as Al Noor Mosque) and the Linwood Islamic Centre in Christchurch on 15 March 2019 (Photo by Lisa Maree Williams/Getty Images)
> 
> Alexandre Bissonnette, who opened gunfire at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Quebec City, a mosque in the Sainte-Foy neighborhood of Quebec City in January 2017, was unknown to police and had not been on any watch lists prior to the attack. He too was described by friends as a “xenophobe”, and as someone who was “enthralled by a borderline racist nationalist movement.” He was also described by acquaintances as a “gamer type.”
> 
> The similarities between the profiles of the three men are significant. Veltman was arrested in a mall parking lot without incident while wearing a body-armor-type vest, police said. There is no evidence he had any accomplices. Besides Veltman, the other famous Canadian 'van killer' is "incel" Alek Minassian, who drove a white rental van into multiple pedestrians, killing 10 people and injuring another 16 in 2018.
> 
> London Mayor Ed Holder said it was the worst mass murder his city had ever seen. "We grieve for the family, three generations of whom are now deceased," Holder told reporters. "This was an act of mass murder, perpetrated against Muslims, against Londoners, and rooted in unspeakable hatred." Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said that he was "horrified" by the news, adding that "Islamophobia has no place in any of our communities. This hate is insidious and despicable -- and it must stop."



Link


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:


> I keep seeing "far-right hate groups" and "white supremacists" being held up as the ultimate boogeymen by certain politicians and media types,


And the FBI,








						Religious/Extremist Terrorism:  Non-Muslim edition
					

No. No it’s not, unfortunately. Why would it not happen here too?  I wish all the best to the police who will be turning over every stone to rip this little shit’s life apart right now, and I hope they get sufficient evidence of the ideological element necessary to support terrorism charges on...




					army.ca


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea maybe.
> Trudeau definitely hasn't set a precedent where he uses a tragedy to smash through something very tenuously related right?











						Man suspected of killing Canadian Muslim family was motivated by hate -police
					

A man accused of killing four members of a Canadian Muslim family by running them over in his pickup truck, targeted them in an attack motivated by hate, police said on Monday.




					www.reuters.com
				






> "There is evidence that this was a planned, premeditated act, motivated by hate," Detective Superintendent Paul Waight of the London police department told reporters.


I don't know, does this sound like PM Trudeau talking out of his ass, or does this sound like the police themselves stating what they have evidence of?

I watched the Alec Minassian interrogation, he didn't beat around the bush when questioned by police about his motives and whether he did it, he was up front if not proud of what he had done. One wouldn't have needed a full forensic investigation of his social media to figure out what was what in that case, it might be the same here. Or maybe he left a note about what he was going to do in case he died in the attempt. 

I don't think the police would be saying it was a premeditated act motivated by hate if there wasn't evidence of that, and I don't think PM Trudeau would be going out on a limb saying this was a terrorist act if there was any ambiguity about it


----------



## OldSolduer

Retired AF Guy said:


> According to this article it appears that the alleged killer lived alone, played loud computer games and got into arguments with his neighbours:
> 
> 
> 
> Link


If Islamic terrorists can be inspired by Islamic Imams preaching hate then our far right csm be inspired by neo Nazis etc.
I’d love to see the psych profile on this guy, I can imagine his coworkers said he was a bit off and got in heated arguments with him.

and FYI the PM is after votes.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> Never let a catastrophe go to waste. I’m certain this is what JT is hearing from his voices in the PMO


4 Muslim Canadians died on a walk because one POS hates Muslims. 

I personally don't see any attempt by the gov to push any agenda. There is a serious problem in Canada regarding targeted attacks on Muslim Canadians. We are not that far removed from the mosque shooting in Quebec City in 2017.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Loachman said:


> Do Muslims tend to fall into either left or right wings?
> 
> They seem to be more conservative/traditionalist than the average Westerner. As a group (and I realize that no group is monolithic), they tend to be more, and more seriously, religious.
> 
> Would what we normally consider to be terrorist activities committed by Islamists then, also, be considered "far right"?
> 
> I stumbled across something a few weeks ago that mentioned that such acts are also listed as "far-right" by some US agencies but did not investigate further and cannot remember the source.
> 
> I keep seeing "far-right hate groups" and "white supremacists" being held up as the ultimate boogeymen by certain politicians and media types, but little evidence of actual dangerous activity. I am far more concerned about the left-wing violence that I see - Antifa and BLM in particular.
> 
> I am also rather sceptical about rising rates of anti-semitism being attributed to "far-right"/"white supremacist" groups, when this rise seems to coincide with increasing numbers of Muslim immigrants in many areas - they are not exactly fans of Judaism.
> 
> There are violent extremists in any identifiable group, but it is only fashionable to go after one.


The radical Islamist's play the victim card until they are strong enough to throw their weight around, their first target is always the Muslims who don't want to follow their rules. It's later on the LGBTQ will realize they are a target, but only after it's to late. The disconnect from the Left about the Islamists stated objectives is mind boggling.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Altair said:


> 4 Muslim Canadians died on a walk because one POS hates Muslims.
> 
> I personally don't see any attempt by the gov to push any agenda. There is a serious problem in Canada regarding targeted attacks on Muslim Canadians. We are not that far removed from the mosque shooting in Quebec City in 2017.


Yet I witnessed their non-Muslim neighbours in tears about the event and most of the people leaving flowers are not Muslims. Your going to get POS everywhere you go and in every culture and country.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Dealing with crime and terrorism isn't an either/or proposition.  All the bad apples merit attention and, when appropriate, consequences.


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> Yet I witnessed their non-Muslim neighbours in tears about the event and most of the people leaving flowers are not Muslims.


Yes, because the large majority of people are good decent people. But lets not ignore that there is a segment of the population, in this case those amongst the far right, who are targeting Muslims. The shooter in Quebec city and the shooter in New Zealand were both influenced by the far right.


Colin Parkinson said:


> Your going to get POS everywhere you go and in every culture and country.


Yes, but if they are congregating in a certain community I see no problem calling a spade a spade.

Post 9-11 people said that the Muslim community had to report on the extremists, and I don't think that was a issue. And the Muslim community largely responded and did just that.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Man suspected of killing Canadian Muslim family was motivated by hate -police
> 
> 
> A man accused of killing four members of a Canadian Muslim family by running them over in his pickup truck, targeted them in an attack motivated by hate, police said on Monday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, does this sound like PM Trudeau talking out of his ass, or does this sound like the police themselves stating what they have evidence of?


Not to appear like I'm deflecting here but I remember not too long ago a certain Toronto detective talking about how most guns used in crimes in Toronto were sourced from break and enters into lawful gun owner's homes. That was challenged and "the detective" quickly disapeared...

Within 24 hours the police had proof this guy, who apparently "does not have a criminal record and is not known to be a member of any hate groups, but was odd", made this attack was motivate by hate. Anti-muslim.

Okay.

Within 48 hours the PM was launching with promises to combat online (and offline) hate-groups (even though this guy had little online footprint)

Yea. I'm not defending this POS in the least but I'm also very curious about all this proof that enabled the PM to move quickly. I guess it's been already decided he wasn't just _mentally ill_ right?


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:


> And the FBI,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religious/Extremist Terrorism:  Non-Muslim edition
> 
> 
> No. No it’s not, unfortunately. Why would it not happen here too?  I wish all the best to the police who will be turning over every stone to rip this little shit’s life apart right now, and I hope they get sufficient evidence of the ideological element necessary to support terrorism charges on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> army.ca



I do not trust Wray or Mayorkas at all, and I still see no "far-right" violence that compares to even a tiny fraction of the violence committed by Antifa and BLM supporters.

I don't see any remotely-comparable Islamist violence in the US of late, either.

And there were leftist elements in the crowd at the US Capitol on 6 January as well. It was not a one-sided mob, and there are political interests at play so I do not expect to see a whole lot of truth any time soon.

My first thought when it occurred was "Reichstag Fire". It had an all-too-convenient ring to it.

I am slowly working my way through the 128-page US Senate "Examining the U.S. Capitol Attack" report, but it'll take me a bit of time to finish.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> Not to appear like I'm deflecting here but I remember not too long ago a certain Toronto detective talking about how most guns used in crimes in Toronto were sourced from break and enters into lawful gun owner's homes. That was challenged and "the detective" quickly disapeared...


Yes, bad apples everywhere. But after the Toronto van attack the police were similarly confident within a few hours.


Jarnhamar said:


> Within 24 hours the police had proof this guy, who apparently "does not have a criminal record and is not known to be a member of any hate groups, but was odd", made this attack was motivate dby hate. Anti-muslim.


Alec Minassian didn't have a criminal record record, but he spilled his guts within minutes of being interrogated. If this current suspect did the same, or left a note, are the police supposed to ignore it?


Jarnhamar said:


> Okay.
> 
> Within 48 hours the PM was launching with promises to combat online (and offline) hate-groups (even though this guy had little online footprint)
> 
> Yea. I'm not defending this POS in the least but I'm also very curious about all this proof that enabled the PM to move quickly. I guess it's been already decided he wasn't just _mentally ill_ right?


If he has no history of mental health and isn't presenting as someone with mental health issues causing this, then yeah, it could be rapidly determined.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> 4 Muslim Canadians died on a walk because one POS hates Muslims.
> 
> I personally don't see any attempt by the gov to push any agenda. There is a serious problem in Canada regarding targeted attacks on Muslim Canadians. We are not that far removed from the mosque shooting in Quebec City in 2017.



Yes. "One POS". No sign of *group* activity, though, yet Trudeau launched off wildly again as is his custom.

He had *exactly* the same reaction when a Muslim girl claimed that a bunch of Islamophobic boys tore off her hijab a few years ago. It eventually turned out to be a hoax, yet he did not apologize for his over-reaction.

A *responsible* leader - and I really, really wish that we had one - would offer condolences to the family (what remains of it) and community and promise to determine exactly what happened, see what could be done to reduce the chances of recurrence, and punish the attacker to the maximum extent possible (a court's decision, ultimately, I know).

But he chooses to posture, and signal his virtue (sadly lacking in reality), stir a pot that needs no more stirring, and incite division.

And he'll probably find some way to use it to ban more guns, as well.


----------



## lenaitch

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea. I'm not defending this POS in the least but I'm also very curious about all this proof that enabled the PM to move quickly. I guess it's been already decided he wasn't just _mentally ill_ right?


Which will likely be his defence angle, like Mennasian.

I doubt the PM has any inside knowledge; he will be going off public feeds.  The police would be nuts to take a call from the PMO and disclose evidence.

The dude may well have bared his soul while he was assisting the police in their inquiries (as the British say) but they can't call it a win and head for a beer.

The police have to say something credible that isn't incorrect.  "Evidence of" is a good response.


----------



## Underway

Jarnhamar said:


> Yea. I'm not defending this POS in the least but I'm also very curious about all this proof that enabled the PM to move quickly. I guess it's been already decided he wasn't just _mentally ill_ right?


Doesn't really matter does it.  Mentally ill can also be motivated by hate.  The police have evidence the deed was planned and the family itself was targeted according to that plan.  I have confidence that the police were able to figure out what was going on here.  

I'm also not going to use this to create some sort of twisted confirmation bias to justify or denounce a political party/ stance/ media.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> I do not trust Wray or Mayorkas at all, and I still see no "far-right" violence that compares to even a tiny fraction of the violence committed by Antifa and BLM supporters.


Really?

23 dead in El Paso walmart shooting targeting immigrants

8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.

Please show me the body count of antifa in the same time frame


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> Yes. "One POS". No sign of *group* activity, though, yet Trudeau launched off wildly again as is his custom.
> 
> He had *exactly* the same reaction when a Muslim girl claimed that a bunch of Islamophobic boys tore off her hijab a few years ago. It eventually turned out to be a hoax, yet he did not apologize for his over-reaction.
> 
> A *responsible* leader - and I really, really wish that we had one - would offer condolences to the family (what remains of it) and community and promise to determine exactly what happened, see what could be done to reduce the chances of recurrence, and punish the attacker to the maximum extent possible (a court's decision, ultimately, I know).
> 
> But he chooses to posture, and signal his virtue (sadly lacking in reality), stir a pot that needs no more stirring, and incite division.
> 
> And he'll probably find some way to use it to ban more guns, as well.


I dunno,I think your bias is showing at this point.

ISIL had a period of lone wolf attacks and that was just called Islamic terrorism.  Nobody had any qualms about politicians describing it as such.

Now we have a wave of lone wolf attacks by those who frequent the far right. I have no issue with calling a spade a spade.


----------



## lenaitch

Altair said:


> Yes, bad apples everywhere. But after the Toronto van attack the police were similarly confident within a few hours.
> 
> Alec Minassian didn't have a criminal record record, but he spilled his guts within minutes of being interrogated. If this current suspect did the same, or left a note, are the police supposed to ignore it?
> 
> If he has no history of mental health and isn't presenting as someone with mental health issues causing this, then yeah, it could be rapidly determined.



Menassian did have a history of mental health issues, just not to the extent that the court considered to be Not Criminally Responsible.

History always starts somewhere.  Are you saying that there is 'a look' to mental illness'?  A rapid roadside test?  Cool.  Funny how the courts usually remand an accused to a team of professionals for a month or more.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> Really?
> 
> 23 dead in El Paso walmart shooting targeting immigrants
> 
> 8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.
> 
> Please show me the body count of antifa in the same time frame



At least a couple of dozen people died in BLM/Antifa riots in major cities in the US last year, and many police were seriously injured. Insured damages exceeded a billion dollars. I've seen no estimate on uninsured damage, but would imagine it to be far higher.

There are always going to be lone extremist nutbars, but individual and herd dynamics are not the same.

The subhuman who murdered those eight people - six of whom, not eight, were Asian women also stated his reason, which was his "sex addiction".


----------



## Altair

lenaitch said:


> Menassian did have a history of mental health issues, just not to the extent that the court considered to be Not Criminally Responsible.
> 
> History always starts somewhere.  Are you saying that there is 'a look' to mental illness'?  A rapid roadside test?  Cool.  Funny how the courts usually remand an accused to a team of professionals for a month or more.


There is a community in mourning, feeling attacked, fearing to do things a basic as going for a walk, going to a place of religious worship for the sole reason that they are Muslim.

Do you really think this community needs the PM to wait a damn month to hear what they know to be self evident?


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> At least a couple of dozen people died in BLM/Antifa riots in major cities in the US last year, and many police were seriously injured. Insured damages exceeded a billion dollars. I've seen no estimate on uninsured damage, but would imagine it to be far higher.
> 
> There are always going to be lone extremist nutbars, but individual and herd dynamics are not the same.
> 
> The subhuman who murdered those eight people - six of whom, not eight, were Asian women also stated his reason, which was his "sex addiction".


While I have every sympathy for lives lost to any group, let's not start to equate people being killed to property damage.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> I dunno,I think your bias is showing at this point.
> 
> ISIL had a period of lone wolf attacks and that was just called Islamic terrorism.  Nobody had any qualms about politicians describing it as such.
> 
> Now we have a wave of lone wolf attacks by those who frequent the far right. I have no issue with calling a spade a spade.



They also had the tendency to claim responsibility when there was no proven direct affiliation or membership, just to puff themselves up.

And I am not sure where the "right" label comes from, other than as a purely prejudicial term.

I consider myself to be right-leaning in many ways, yet have a deep aversion to any form of extremism. So-called "far-right" extremists are not merely extensions of true conservatives, but off in a world of their own.

White supremacists are oft claimed to be "far-right", yet groups such as the KKK originated within what is now the Democrat party, which is on the left side of the spectrum.

Democrat Senator Robert Byrd, who remained a Senator until his death in 2010, was a prominent Klan supporter in his younger days, and there is some doubt that he ever fully ceased to support the KKK.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> While I have every sympathy for lives lost to any group, let's not start to equate people being killed to property damage.


The property damage was in addition to at least two dozen lives lost while the damage was being done, along with a large number of injuries. Regardless, there has still been far more violence from self-described Marxists and anarchists than those who would be considered to be rightists, and, as previously stated, much white supremacy originated from within what is now the Democrat party.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> There is a community in mourning, feeling attacked, fearing to do things a basic as going for a walk, going to a place of religious worship for the sole reason that they are Muslim.
> 
> Do you really think this community needs the PM to wait a damn month to hear what they know to be self evident?


He can - and should - sympathize and offer condolences as a normal person would. That is right and proper and supportive.

Ejaculating prematurely is unhelpful.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Yes, bad apples everywhere.


Yes, those bad apples. Some take 24 hours to investigate, some take 12 years.

Either way, I'm curious about the proof that prompted the PM to launch so quickly. So asuredly.



Altair said:


> Alec Minassian didn't have a criminal record record, but he spilled his guts within minutes of being interrogated.


It seems like there's a real push to associate this guy with Minassian. Maybe he spilled his guts within minutes too.


----------



## Altair

And in acanadian context, as


Loachman said:


> They also had the tendency to claim responsibility when there was no proven direct affiliation or membership, just to puff themselves up.


Questionable.


Loachman said:


> And I am not sure where the "right" label comes from, other than as a purely prejudicial term.
> 
> I consider myself to be right-leaning in many ways, yet have a deep aversion to any form of extremism. So-called "far-right" extremists are not merely extensions of true conservatives, but off in a world of their own.


Same as any far left.


Loachman said:


> White supremacists are oft claimed to be "far-right", yet groups such as the KKK originated within what is now the Democrat party, which is on the left side of the spectrum.


The Democrats used to be the right wing party of the USA, party of the southern conservative. We both know this  can we stop being cute here?


Loachman said:


> Democrat Senator Robert Byrd, who remained a Senator until his death in 2010, was a prominent Klan supporter in his younger days, and there is some doubt that he ever fully ceased to support the KKK.


Sure, whatever.

The fact remains that those on the far right, as repulsive as those in the normal right find them, are more similar to those on the right than the left.

You don't see these people on the far right calling for abortion rights, gay marriage, lgbtq rights, you see the opposite.

The reason I think they are called far right is because they are so far outside the norms of normal conservatism that they are in their own world. But the fact remains that their closest affiliation would be to the right wing of the political spectrum.

This is not to blame conservatives for the far right. Far from it.

But there has to come a point where we realize that these groups have their own niche , where these extremist views are spreading, where these people are being radicalized by others in this niche and where there are some of them who are taking action.

The same thing that was and is happening in Islamic circles is now happening in these right wing groups.

The sooner we accept that, the sooner we deal with the problem. And it is a problem.

Because for all the USA this and USA that talk you are going on about, look to Canada. Think of the largest attacks on people in the last decade and realize that the perpetrators are coming from one distinct demographic.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> 8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.


That's the shooting where the shooter had a sex addiction and wasn't targeting Asian women specifically, except the narrative being pushed tried to make it out like he was. Right?


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> 4 Muslim Canadians died on a walk because one POS hates Muslims.
> 
> I personally don't see any attempt by the gov to push any agenda. There is a serious problem in Canada regarding targeted attacks on Muslim Canadians. We are not that far removed from the mosque shooting in Quebec City in 2017.


I see the great and wonderful JT preparing to push an agenda. We will never agree on JT and the Liberal party


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> I see the great and wonderful JT preparing to push an agenda. We will never agree on JT and the Liberal party


I find it sad that 4 Muslim Canadians get killed in what the police are calling a premeditated attack,which would fall under terrorism plain and simple and you see a political agenda.

I hope I never become that jaded.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> That's the shooting where the shooter had a sex addiction and wasn't targeting Asian women specifically, except the narrative being pushed tried to make it out like he was. Right?


Wait, he isn't being charged with hate crimes?

I was under the impression he was.


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> The Democrats used to be the right wing party of the USA, party of the southern conservative. We both know this  can we stop being cute here?


It is cute.     But,


> Black Americans overwhelmingly backed President-elect Joe Biden in the 2020 election,


Wall Street Journal








						Black Americans Largely Rebuked Trump’s Overtures, Helped Lift Biden
					

Black Americans overwhelmingly backed President-elect Joe Biden in last week’s election, largely rejecting years of work by President Trump to siphon support from one of the Democrats’ critical voting blocs.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## YZT580

Altair said:


> Really?
> 
> 23 dead in El Paso walmart shooting targeting immigrants
> 
> 8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.
> 
> Please show me the body count of antifa in the same time frame


Burkina Faso - Up to 160 people were killed in the attack on Solhan - the UN says nearly 40 are seriously injured and in hospital.  Nuff said


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Wait, he isn't being charged with hate crimes?
> 
> I was under the impression he was.


No. The prosecutor is going to seek hate crime charges and the death penalty, but he wasn't charged with hate crimes.


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> I find it sad that 4 Muslim Canadians get killed in what the police are calling a premeditated attack,which would fall under terrorism plain and simple and you see a political agenda.
> 
> I hope I never become that jaded.


Well I’ve seen a lot in my 64 years. The Trudeau’s ALWAYS have an agenda


----------



## Altair

YZT580 said:


> Burkina Faso - Up to 160 people were killed in the attack on Solhan - the UN says nearly 40 are seriously injured and in hospital.  Nuff said


Yes, we both agree that some places in the world are more subject to Islamic extremist violence.

But the fact that you are trying to equate what is happening in Burkina Faso with El Paso Texas is telling.

Since 911, depending on which source you want to believe,far right wing terror and Islamic terror have been neck in neck in terms of body count, with incels in third, BLM in fourth, and left wing extremists in last.

So I think it's fair to say far right terror is a problem.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> Well I’ve seen a lot in my 64 years. The Trudeau’s ALWAYS have an agenda


I wasn't a fan of PM Harper.

I didn't once think, at the time or anytime since, that the parliament hill attack being called an act of terrorism was part of his agenda in any way shape or form.

To do so would be to think so lowly of a individual that I can no longer view them as a fellow citizen, a human being with normal emotions,and a normal human reaction to a tragedy. 

At that point they are more akin to a enemy,someone to be defeated in every way. 

And while thats just my personal view on the matter, and in no way a rule to be followed, I have not in all my years disliked anyone enough in a political sense to view them as an enemy.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> It is cute.     But,
> 
> Wall Street Journal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Americans Largely Rebuked Trump’s Overtures, Helped Lift Biden
> 
> 
> Black Americans overwhelmingly backed President-elect Joe Biden in last week’s election, largely rejecting years of work by President Trump to siphon support from one of the Democrats’ critical voting blocs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wsj.com


I see this and raise you









						2020 Presidential Election exit polls: share of votes by ethnicity U.S. 2020 | Statista
					

According to exit polling in the 2020 Presidential Election in the United States, 87 percent of surveyed Black voters reported voting for former Vice President Joe Biden.




					www.statista.com


----------



## mariomike

Lets not forget Jewish voters.

Times of Israel 
Jewish voters favored Biden over Trump 77-21​78% of Jewish respondents back Democrats in congressional races​








						Poll: Jewish voters favored Biden over Trump 77-21
					

Support higher than for Clinton in 2016, J Street poll indicates; 78% of Jewish respondents back Democrats in congressional races




					www.timesofisrael.com


----------



## YZT580

Altair said:


> Yes, we both agree that some places in the world are more subject to Islamic extremist violence.
> 
> But the fact that you are trying to equate what is happening in Burkina Faso with El Paso Texas is telling.
> 
> Since 911, depending on which source you want to believe,far right wing terror and Islamic terror have been neck in neck in terms of body count, with incels in third, BLM in fourth, and left wing extremists in last.
> 
> So I think it's fair to say far right terror is a problem.


agreed but my question would be is there a common reason for people from both sides of the spectrum to hate to the point of killing others that don't believe as they do


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Yes, we both agree that some places in the world are more subject to Islamic extremist violence.



You mean most places





						List of terrorist incidents in 2021 - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				









						List of terrorist incidents in 2020 - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> Lets not forget Jewish voters.
> 
> Times of Israel
> Jewish voters favored Biden over Trump 77-21​78% of Jewish respondents back Democrats in congressional races​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Jewish voters favored Biden over Trump 77-21
> 
> 
> Support higher than for Clinton in 2016, J Street poll indicates; 78% of Jewish respondents back Democrats in congressional races
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timesofisrael.com


yup, it's almost as if the two parties swapped sides of the political spectrum between 1912 and 1932


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> You mean most places
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of terrorist incidents in 2021 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of terrorist incidents in 2020 - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org


Yet in America, statistically, since September 12 2001, one is more likely to die due to far right terror than Islamic terror.

Although the numbers are close depending on the source you believe.

Regardless, I have no problems calling a spade a spade. Islamic terrorism is terrorism,far right terrorism is terrorism.

Yet people seem to be getting all up in arms because a POS purposely targeted a Muslim family out for a peaceful walk outside due to to their religion accord to Police, being called a act of terrorism.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:


> Yet people seem to be getting all up in arms



It must be because the victims are Muslim and everyone is secretly defending this guy.


----------



## Altair

Jarnhamar said:


> It must be because the victims are Muslim and everyone is secretly defending this guy.


I don't know why, frankly, I don't care why.

If this POS targeted Muslims as the police alleged he did, that's terrorism in my book, full stop.


----------



## Jarnhamar

If he targeted a family on purpose he should be locked up and the key thrown away IMO. Personally I don't care what he's charged with as long as it punishes him and keeps him off the street.

It seems terrorism charges are some kind of a-ha! thing in Canada that quickly becomes a focal point. Justice can only be done if there's a terrorism charge attached.


----------



## CBH99

I’m very much staying out of the politics that may be involved at some point.  But a family was murdered while out for a walk, on purpose, by a stranger motivated by extreme hate.  

Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism. 

If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism?  (Food for thought)


Regardless - this POS deserves the best the system can do.  Lock him up.  Such a sad and needless thing to have happened 😔


----------



## Remius

CBH99 said:


> I’m very much staying out of the politics that may be involved at some point.  But a family was murdered while out for a walk, on purpose, by a stranger motivated by extreme hate.
> 
> Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism.
> 
> If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism?  (Food for thought)
> 
> 
> Regardless - this POS deserves the best the system can do.  Lock him up.  Such a sad and needless thing to have happened 😔


The issue is whenever something like this happens some of  those on the right who claim the far left is far more dangerous than the far right get up in arms about how this gets labelled and those on the far left say the far right is more dangerous than the far left because both sides are entrenched in their own politics and whether they know it or not are actually taking sides.   It’s freaking weird to see this sort of debate here.    So many “yeah buts…” in both sides.

Your post is spot on.


----------



## Jarnhamar

CBH99 said:


> Personally, I feel like it’s an act of terrorism.


Me too. I'm curious what leads the police to come to this conclusion so quickly but if it fits the bill for terrorism then it's terrorism, on top of murder.


CBH99 said:


> If a Muslim man who hated White people did the exact same thing, in the exact same scenario, would that affect whether it’s viewed or prosecuted as terrorism?  (Food for thought)


Absolutely.
Personally, I think there's an unfair biased towards Muslims where they're still more inclined to get accused of terrorism than non-muslims. We know anyone can commit terrorism and as Altair and others pointed out right-wing extremist violence is statistically more deadly in North America in the last 20 years than Islamic violence. 100%.

I think the rush to label attacks (and the attackers), and the politiking involved, means the loss of life loses the attention it deserves.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> It’s freaking weird to see this sort of debate here.


For myself as someone who's probably wrong more than they're right, it's nice to be able to have opinions and those opinions challenged here without being attacked or ganged-up on.


----------



## Edward Campbell

It IS an act of terrorism and, arguably, a successful one in that some media outlets say that some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public. The aim of the terrorist is to shake people's faith in their government and even in their community.

Is Nathaniel Veltman a terrorist? Not, I suspect, in the way most of us generally use that term. Was Timothy McVeigh a real terrorist or was he just a crazy man who believed in some baseless conspiracy theories about Waco and Ruby Ridge? Let's say they are/were both terrorists in the legal sense; they are/were, it appears, both "lone wolf" terrorists ~ à la Canada's own Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. What motivated them? Does Nathaniel Veltman have any core political beliefs? When I Googled him I found, near the top of the list, a Pro-Palestine/Anti-Israel/Anti-Semitic (they are three different things but they are, more often as not, often found together) source that declared the Mr Veltman is a "Zio-Nazi" which is how the author of the piece (I Googled him, too) appears to describe any Jew who supports Israel's right to exist.

I agree with Jarnhamer, "the rush to label attacks (and the attackers), and the politiking involved, means the loss of life loses the attention it deserves."


----------



## dimsum

Edward Campbell said:


> It IS an act of terrorism and, arguably, a successful one in that some media outlets say that some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public. The aim of the terrorist is to shake people's faith in their government and even in their community.



From our Dept of Justice:  


> In Canada, section 83.01 of the _Criminal Code_[1] defines terrorism as an act committed "in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" *with the intention of intimidating the public "…with regard to its security*, including its economic security, *or compelling a person,* a government or a domestic or an international organization *to do or to refrain from doing any act*."


If some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public as EC states, then that seems to fit the definition.


----------



## Underway

+1

There's really no doubt terror was involved here.  The definition is broad enough.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> I see the great and wonderful JT preparing to push an agenda. We will never agree on JT and the Liberal party


PMJT seems to do ok with Canadian Muslims.



			https://www.environicsinstitute.org/docs/default-source/project-documents/survey-of-muslims-in-canada-2016/final-report.pdf?sfvrsn=fbb85533_2
		




Voting results of Canadian Muslims, 2015Liberal Party65%New Democratic Party10%Conservative Party2%Other party2%Did not vote16%Not eligible to vote5%


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm just getting pissed off at all the "we're going to do something" yakking from the pointy heads.

Whatcha' going to do to stop hatred?  Kill haters?  Who decides which hate we kill?  Humans will hate and there is nothing you can do about it.

Some of you have been on "peacekeeping mission's"  where the hatred was from a century ago......how'd that work out?  Everytime someone  says we're going to stomp out hate they make assholes like this guy hate even more, and gives them a platform.  I wonder how many other wannabees see the coverage this guy is getting and go "hmmmm, I can have a cool terrorist tag also". Media and politicians are fanning flames for personal and financial gain using tragedies like this.

It's taking so much away from the fact that an innocent family was murdered because he's an asshole, nothing more but certainly something less.

I hope the friends and remaining family can somehow find peace.   Instead they are being followed, filmed, and badgered for our sick need to know....


----------



## CBH99

The philosophical discussion - which i anticipate will be quite enjoyable - should probably go in a different thread.  

I agree with you Jarn.  I quite enjoy stating my opinion or perspective on something, and being able to have a good discussion about it, even if I’m more wrong than right.  

I LOVE IT when I can have a good, rational conversation/debate with someone knowledgeable about something and be proven completely wrong — realizing I was missing a piece of something and being forced to change my opinion on it due to someone making valid points is something I value when it happens.  

The only path (for me anyway) so far in my life that has led me to be a more grounded, accepting, loving person & to grow - is when someone more knowledgeable about something uses good, rational talk to help me realize I am mistaken about something.

Discussions with people who DON’T see eye to eye, yet can exchange perspectives civilly, is way more beneficial to them both.




Early morning coffee thoughts here... but it’s interesting how on the one hand, society is very focused on doing everything possible to ‘fight racism’.  Yet our own media & judicial system do use race as a factor when deciding how to report a story, or pending charges (Rightfully so if it’s relevant.)


It must be a tricky line at times, deciding when something is a hate crime & something is terrorism.  Not always, but sometimes.  In my mind, they overlap each other in so many ways.  


Either way, he’s charged with some serious charges.  In custody.  Caught & ID’d.  Etc etc.  I haven’t prayed in a while, I’ve become quite lazy when it comes to daily, thoughtful prayer.  But today I am going to, and really focus on that family.  

I don’t use the word tragic very often - I find it’s overused.  But this really is tragic.  Poor kid who survived 😔🙏🏻


----------



## CBH99

I think this thread somehow got mixed with another.  Mods?

We went from talking about the family in London, Ont - then the few posts after that have been about Unions.  Or is that just on my end?


----------



## lenaitch

dimsum said:


> From our Dept of Justice:
> 
> If some Canadian Muslims are now afraid to go out in public as EC states, then that seems to fit the definition.



And if the evidence is there no doubt additional terrorism charges will be laid, if for no other reason that there is a compelling public policy need to condemn the actions under the appropriate light.  But he is currently charged with First Degree Murder x 4 where they will have to prove his actions were deliberate, but not why.  For terrorism, they have go beyond what seems to be publicly apparent and prove the why.

We can assume they have enough for the murder charges and that he wasn't just some numpty who was driving erratically while surfing his phone and jumped the curb then took off.

We didn't leap to the label when a driver from a visible minority group blew a stop sign and killed a bus load of people in Saskatchewan.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:


> Which unions endorsed Trump?


Could we stay on topic? It's literally like everytime someone mentions the US Federal politics you jump in to quote 4 irrelevant words and turn them into a tangent.


----------



## Altair

lenaitch said:


> And if the evidence is there no doubt additional terrorism charges will be laid, if for no other reason that there is a compelling public policy need to condemn the actions under the appropriate light.  But he is currently charged with First Degree Murder x 4 where they will have to prove his actions were deliberate, but not why.  For terrorism, they have go beyond what seems to be publicly apparent and prove the why.
> 
> We can assume they have enough for the murder charges and that he wasn't just some numpty who was driving erratically while surfing his phone and jumped the curb then took off.
> 
> We didn't leap to the label when a driver from a visible minority group blew a stop sign and killed a bus load of people in Saskatchewan.


Context matters.

If there was evidence that the Humboldt broncos truck driver purposely targeted people because of their religion or ethnicity, I think most would call that an act of terror as opposed to a terrible accident.

If there was evidence that this guy arrested in London was just a a careless driver who ran over this family by accident, most would chalk that up as a very sad tragedy and move on.

But the police are saying there is evidence that this family was targeted because they were Muslim and in that context, labeling it as an act of terror seems appropriate. I don't care if he gets charged with terrorism specifically,  with 4 premeditated murders he likely doesn't get out of jail either way.


----------



## YZT580

It could also be nothing more than "road rage" brought about by his having been denied some activity because of Covid and being unable to join with his group and then seeing this family walking down the road to/from prayer at the mosque and flipping out because they were meeting and he couldn't.  Hopefully, rather than rampant speculation the evidence will point at cause and enable corrective measures before someone else pulls the same act.


----------



## Altair

YZT580 said:


> It could also be nothing more than "road rage" brought about by his having been denied some activity because of Covid and being unable to join with his group and then seeing this family walking down the road to/from prayer at the mosque and flipping out because they were meeting and he couldn't.  Hopefully, rather than rampant speculation the evidence will point at cause and enable corrective measures before someone else pulls the same act.











						Suspect in alleged London hate killings laughed during arrest: witness
					

The pickup driver told a cabbie, who was out of his vehicle lighting a cigarette in a mall parking lot, to call police, saying he’d just killed someone




					nationalpost.com
				






> The driver arrested in an alleged hate-motivated attack that killed four family members in London laughed as police took him into custody in a mall parking lot, a traumatized taxi driver who witnessed the arrest told his boss.
> 
> The cabbie was parked outside Cherryhill Village Mall on Oxford Street for a coffee break shortly before 9 p.m. Sunday when a black pickup truck entered the nearly deserted lot and parked behind him, Yellow Taxi London president Hassan Savehilaghi told The Free Press, speaking for the taxi driver.
> 
> A veteran cabbie and father of two, he asked that Savehilaghi speak on his behalf because he’s still too traumatized to speak publicly about what he witnessed.
> 
> The pickup driver was wearing what appeared to be a bullet-proof vest, a military-style helmet and clothing that perhaps had swastikas on it, Savehilaghi said he was told by the cabbie.
> 
> The pickup driver told the cabbie, who was out of his vehicle lighting a cigarette, to call police, saying he’d just killed someone.
> 
> “It was damaged with blood,” Savehilaghi said of the pickup’s front end, adding the cab driver said he thought the vehicle was involved in a hit-and-run and called 911.
> 
> John Dennett, a maintenance worker at the mall, said he also spoke with the cabbie and corroborated the details Savehilaghi provided.
> 
> While on the phone with a police dispatcher, the cabbie saw a cruiser heading est on Oxford Street and ran to flag it down.
> 
> The officer pulled into the parking lot and reinforcements quickly arrived before the arrest.
> 
> “When they got him out of the vehicle, he was laughing,” Savehilaghi said, adding the suspect asked the cabbie to record his arrest.



Road rage in a military style helmet, vest, and potentially wearing swastikas. 

Laughing while being arrested.

Yeah, that sounds like a typical case of road rage to me.


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> Suspect in alleged London hate killings laughed during arrest: witness
> 
> 
> The pickup driver told a cabbie, who was out of his vehicle lighting a cigarette in a mall parking lot, to call police, saying he’d just killed someone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Road rage in a military style helmet, vest, and potentially wearing swastikas.
> 
> Laughing while being arrested.
> 
> Yeah, that sounds like a typical case of road rage to me.


I think you missed the point t he was trying to make.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I think you missed the point t he was trying to make.


If I were to guess, it could have been this, it could have been that, it could have been any number of things that lead up to this, so let's not speculate on what it could have been.

I simply wonder if we went through this when Michael Zehaf-Bibeau attacked the national war memorial and parliament hill.

Disgruntled former employee?

Lovers spat?

Gang hit?


----------



## Remius

Altair said:


> If I were to guess, it could have been this, it could have been that, it could have been any number of things that lead up to this, so let's not speculate on what it could have been.
> 
> I simply wonder if we went through this when Michael Zehaf-Bibeau attacked the national war memorial and parliament hill.
> 
> Disgruntled former employee?
> 
> Lovers spat?
> 
> Gang hit?


I think what was different with that is that just before he did what he did another CAF member had been run down in another targeted attack. Couple that with other similar situations it was hard not make that link.  Or assume that it might have been a terrorist or ideological attack.


----------



## Altair

Remius said:


> I think what was different with that is that just before he did what he did another CAF member had been run down in another targeted attack. Couple that with other similar situations it was hard not make that link.  Or assume that it might have been a terrorist or ideological attack.


And that previous attack, did we start thinking it was road rage?

Personal vendetta?

I don't think we did, it was obviously a targeted attack on soldiers.

And it was called terrorism.

So a Muslim man uses vehicle to target and kill a soldier, terror attack. No problems.

Muslim man shoots and kills a soldier in a targeted attack, and then runs to the hill. Terror attack, no problem.

Non Muslim man uses vehicle to target Muslims out on a walk...

Maybe it was road rage?

This isn't terrorism, why call it terrorism?

Virtue signaling!

Wait for a investigation!

Too soon to say!


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Altair said:


> Really?
> 
> 23 dead in El Paso walmart shooting targeting immigrants
> 
> 8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.
> 
> Please show me the body count of antifa in the same time frame



The Asian women was not about Asian, but about sexual inadequacies.


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> The Asian women was not about Asian, but about sexual inadequacies.


And  El paso?


----------



## CBH99

Altair said:


> And that previous attack, did we start thinking it was road rage?
> 
> Personal vendetta?
> 
> I don't think we did, it was obviously a targeted attack on soldiers.
> 
> And it was called terrorism.
> 
> So a Muslim man uses vehicle to target and kill a soldier, terror attack. No problems.
> 
> Muslim man shoots and kills a soldier in a targeted attack, and then runs to the hill. Terror attack, no problem.
> 
> Non Muslim man uses vehicle to target Muslims out on a walk...
> 
> Maybe it was road rage?
> 
> This isn't terrorism, why call it terrorism?
> 
> Virtue signaling!
> 
> Wait for a investigation!
> 
> Too soon to say!


I understand where you're coming from Altair, genuinely.  But respectfully, I think you might be jumping the gun a bit?  


In the case of Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the entire situation seemed clearly pre-meditated from the very beginning.  Attacking and killing a soldier at the National War Memorial, and then proceeding to Parliament Hill where he was engaged in a firefight with police.  

His actions, which included killing someone in cold blood, and then quickly leaving the scene to go to Parliament Hill & ended up in a shoot out with the police -- I don't think anybody could look at that and question whether it was pre-meditated, planned, etc.  It clearly was.

It was an act of terrorism, and I believe this is too.  No doubt in my mind now, as I read up today on further details of the accused.



I THINK the only distinction was that in THIS CASE, while everything indicated it was a brutal hate crime/terrorism, it wasn't completely confirmed.  It was 99% confirmed, but not 100%.  As of today, the speculation regarding "Well, maybe this, or maybe that" - is no longer required, as that remaining 1% seems to have been filled in.


I can only speak for myself here...

I was _hoping_ that maybe it was something else.  I really was.  With the suspect being 20yrs old, I was hoping maybe it was actually some hit & run scenario where he didn't mean to kill them.  Or stole the truck and hit them while fleeing.  The body armour was because he just robbed a 7-11, and this happened during his getaway.  Something.  I was just HOPING that the 1% was something else.  He seemed to have friends that have ethnic backgrounds, no interactions with law enforcement, no known connections to hate groups, etc.  I hoped that meant this wasn't what it appeared to be.

Race doesn't factor into it for me, regardless of what skin colour the attackers/victims are.  School shootings are acts of terrorism too, in my eyes anyways.  Skin pigment doesn't matter in the slightest.  (It matters about as much as the pigment in someone's hair.)



However, turns out this POS is even worse than I thought.  Asking the cabbie to call the police, laughing as he's taken into custody, basically bragging about what he had just done.  

On the one hand, I try to be a practical minded person.  With him laughing about it, wearing body armour, bloody truck, etc - a big part of me is instinctively saying "I don't want to waste any more taxpayer money on this a****** than needed.  Take him out back, end it, and carry on with the day."   But, under the circumstances of hearing him laugh about it - I actually do want him to suffer & be locked up for the remainder of his life.  (I don't know if it's wrong for me to think that way?  But death is too kind for some people.)


----------



## Remius

Again the situation in the world was a bit different at that time would you not agree?    And that guy was already being watched by the RCMP.  They knew he had been radicalized so the info was pretty quick about what this was.  He was one of 90 guys being watched since he was trying to make his way to ISIL to fight for them and had been denied a passport before hand.  So why would anyone debate that?


----------



## PMedMoe

Altair said:


> Non Muslim man uses vehicle to target Muslims out on a walk...
> 
> Maybe it was road rage?
> 
> This isn't terrorism, why call it terrorism?
> 
> Virtue signaling!
> 
> Wait for a investigation!
> 
> Too soon to say!


Turns out the suspect was wearing body armor.  Terrorism? Maybe not.  Hate crime? Probably.  Premeditated? Definitely.

Man suspected of killing Canadian Muslim family was motivated by hate


----------



## Remius

I guess that’s what we will try and find out in due course.  Was this guy doing this to make a statement or was he just trying to kill some brown people he really hated.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You don't see these people on the far right calling for abortion rights, gay marriage, lgbtq rights, you see the opposite.



The "far right" has vile elements, but don't try to dress up the left, in which the mainstream has people who openly and repeatedly advocate censorship, disemployment, physical assault, and criminal punishment up to and including imprisonment for those who hold contrary views (eg. catastrophic climate change skepticism).


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I find it sad that 4 Muslim Canadians get killed in what the police are calling a premeditated attack,which would fall under terrorism plain and simple and you see a political agenda.



It is sad, but it's prudent to assume that a political agenda is being served.  What crisis or tragedy has happened in the past few years that was not leveraged by politicians to either gain political advantage or as a pretext to open up a couple of items on their honey-do list?


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:


> 8 of Asian American women dead in Atlanta recently.


Reminded me of one closer to home ( Dufferin and Wilson ) last year. Incel machete attack at a spa. Two wounded with serious injuries. A third woman was found fatally wounded and died on scene. Left behind a five-year old daughter.

Apparently the first time in Canada that someone was charged with terrorism because of a misogynist ideology.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> The "far right" has vile elements, but don't try to dress up the left, in which the mainstream has people who openly and repeatedly advocate censorship, disemployment, physical assault, and criminal punishment up to and including imprisonment for those who hold contrary views (eg. catastrophic climate change skepticism).


The left is fine.

You're talking about the far left.

Both sides of the spectrum has extremists and extremist views.( though I have yet to see a radical centralist)

And you won't see me dressing up either extreme. I will say that the far right has had a much higher body count, and thus are the more deadly of the two extremes but you won't see me apologizing for either.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:


> It is sad, but it's prudent to assume that a political agenda is being served.  What crisis or tragedy has happened in the past few years that was not leveraged by politicians to either gain political advantage or as a* pretext to open up a couple of items on their honey-do list?*


Maybe like reading our texts or emails or open mail without warrant? More seizures of legally owned firearms?


----------



## Brad Sallows

An act of hatred isn't necessarily an act of terrorism, especially if it lacks a political aim.  Note that the definition cited above includes "*with the intention..."*. 

While objectively "the far right" may be directly responsible for more terrorism deaths than the "far left", a proper measure of the risk to a society has to also account for the indirect effects of activism.  The risk of being a victim of white supremacists is far less than the risk of being a victim of common criminals.  To the extent that the contemporary movements and causes of the "far left" are responsible for increases in violent crime, the "far left" is likely a greater threat than the "far right".  It's just that the deaths and other victims are invisible.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> An act of hatred isn't necessarily an act of terrorism, especially if it lacks a political aim.  Note that the definition cited above includes "*with the intention..."*.


Well that's good.

Every lone wolf attack in the past 20 years aren't terrorism then, good.

The parliament hill attack was simply a act of hatred.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> You're talking about the far left.



I meant what I wrote - mainstream.


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> Well that's good.
> 
> Every lone wolf attack in the past 20 years aren't terrorism then, good.
> 
> The parliament hill attack was simply a act of hatred.


Hypothetically if I hate my neighbour and beat the crap out of him is that terrorism? No - its assault cause bodily harm. 

I think you're missing his point.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Every lone wolf attack in the past 20 years aren't terrorism then, good.



Why would you conclude that?  A person acting alone can be acting for reasons that do or do not fit the definition.

And for those who wish to cling to the attribute "liberal", what a "lone wolf" does is not an excuse to go after others.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> I meant what I wrote - mainstream.


I don't care if you meant what you wrote, you're wrong plain and simple.

The left encompasses a large segment of society, in Canada for example you can say that 65 percent of people voted for a left leaning party,  so its fair to say that 6 out of 10 Canadians can be described as left leaning

to dump all of those in the category as those extremists on the far right is wrong. Whether you can see that or not is up to you, but its wrong none the less.


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> I don't care if you meant what you wrote, you're wrong plain and simple.


How judgemental of you.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> Hypothetically if I hate my neighbour and beat the crap out of him is that terrorism? No - its assault cause bodily harm.
> 
> I think you're missing his point.


If there were personal reasons I would say that it wasn't terrorism.

But if you hate jews and beat the crap out of random jews, or hate christians and beat the crap out out of random christians, thats a hate crime.

If you are hate jews, muslims, christians, blacks, whites, native americans, and are out to cause mass casualties amongst their number, I call that terrorism


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> How judgemental of you.


If someone wanted to say all black people are illiterate dumb savages who are only good for picking cotton, do I need to entertain that point of view or can I just call it wrong?


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> The Asian women was not about Asian, but about sexual inadequacies.


I just know what I read in the papers.






						Motive in Georgia spa shootings uncertain, but Asian Americans fearful
					

ATLANTA — Georgia authorities charged a man with the fatal shootings of eight people, including six Asian women, at Atlanta-area spas, and the violence…




					nationalpost.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

> don't care if you meant what you wrote, you're wrong plain and simple.



When people write articles for mainstream media advocating illiberal treatment on the bases of ideological and policy differences, and those opinions are published by said media, and there is almost no objection and actually quite a bit of expressed solidarity and agreement, that is mainstream.  The moderate left and centre left can not define away the excesses of their zeal of the past few years.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> When people write articles for mainstream media advocating illiberal treatment on the bases of ideological and policy differences, and those opinions are published by said media, and there is almost no objection and actually quite a bit of expressed solidarity and agreement, that is mainstream.  The moderate left and centre left can not define away the excesses of their zeal of the past few years.


what you are alluding to is the same far right idiots marching around chanting you will not replace us, shooting up walmarts because of immigration, shooting up mosques full of muslims and churches full of black people, have a equal partner in everyone in the mainstream left wing of the political spectrum.

A LGBTQ activist, same as a far right terrorist.

Someone who believe in more social programs, same as a far right terrorist. 

someone who wants more gun control, same as a far right terrorist.

Its ridiculous, its nonsense. 

I separate the extremists on the right, whos opinions sometimes make their way into fox news which is mainstream media, from the run of the mill conservative. They are not the same.

You need to realize the same thing. There are extremists, anarchists, radicals, communists who have more in common with the mainstream left than the right, but they are not the same thing. You should take the time to figure out who is who and not just label everyone on the center left as the same as the people who you cognitively seperate yourself from on the right,


----------



## Brad Sallows

> someone who wants more gun control, same as a far right terrorist.



Not "same"; "vile".  The examples I enumerated: "censorship, disemployment, physical assault, and criminal punishment".


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Not "same"; "vile".  The examples I enumerated: "censorship, disemployment, physical assault, and criminal punishment".


So I identify as center left. Am I vile?


----------



## QV

mariomike said:


> I just know what I read in the papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motive in Georgia spa shootings uncertain, but Asian Americans fearful
> 
> 
> ATLANTA — Georgia authorities charged a man with the fatal shootings of eight people, including six Asian women, at Atlanta-area spas, and the violence…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


*“If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed.”― Mark Twain*​“Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.”― Edgar Allan Poe

Time to start thinking for yourself.


----------



## mariomike

QV said:


> Time to start thinking for yourself.


I've checked out some of the links you post on here. I'll stick with The National Post, thank you very much.  

>>“Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see.”― Edgar Allan Poe

And believe only one quarter of what you see on social media.


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:


> I've checked out some of the links you post on here. I'll stick with The National Post, thank you very much.


I like the NP. They do decent factchecking and while their slant is to the right nobody can accuse them of being bias left wing media.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I don't like Islam, it is a highly political movement with the express aim of putting one group above all others and suppress freedom of expression, women rights and personal liberties. It is highly organized and able to use our guilt to its advantage. What this POS did is reprehensible and what the idiot did is to hand a gift to the radical Islamists to further their agenda. The radicals like these type of attacks as it pushes the more moderates into their area of influence. 
I support people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who work to deconstruct radical Islams messaging and expose their methodology. Until Islam goes through it's own reformation, I cannot support it here in Canada, because it's primary messaging is against the core values of Canada.


----------



## Good2Golf

Islam, or Islamism?  One’s a religion, while the other is a political ideology/movement.  Numerous references, so won’t pick one specifically, but I would say that you have identified your concern regarding Islamism, not the religion itself.  None of my Muslim friends who follow Islam are anything other than respectful members of our society who peacefully follow a particular religion.

No?

Regards
G2G


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> I don't like Islam,


You say you don't like Islam but then go on to specifically talk about radical Islam.


Colin Parkinson said:


> it is a highly political movement with the express aim of putting one group above all others and suppress freedom of expression, women rights and personal liberties.


I do not believe this to be the case in Canada. There are a few fringe mosques with controversial Imans, but they are just that, fringe. Widespread, you do not hear Muslims in Canada calling for suppression of freedoms, rolling back womens rights or curtailing personal freedoms. 

If all Muslims globally followed the Canadian Muslims example, I think we would have a much more peaceful world. Mayor Sadiq Khan of London and Mayor Nenshi of Calgary are both muslims, and they are amongst the most inclusive and respectful people you could ever meet. I met Nenshi and I would rank him higher than most politicians in Canada.


Colin Parkinson said:


> It is highly organized and able to use our guilt to its advantage.


Most organized religions are just that, organized. But to what end? To overtake Canadian society? We don't have signs of that. 


Colin Parkinson said:


> What this POS did is reprehensible and what the idiot did is to hand a gift to the radical Islamists to further their agenda. The radicals like these type of attacks as it pushes the more moderates into their area of influence.
> I support people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who work to deconstruct radical Islams messaging and expose their methodology. Until Islam goes through it's own reformation, I cannot support it here in Canada, because it's primary messaging is against the core values of Canada.


I agree that radicals of every type are horrible for society, but people, again, need to learn to separate the average run of the mill person who represents the majority of every group who just wants to live their lives in peace, and those who would do us harm.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> So I identify as center left. Am I vile?



I suppose it depends on how you feel about censorship, criminalization of policy differences, etc.

But that's irrelevant.  "the mainstream has people" is not synonymous with "everyone".


----------



## Brad Sallows

Strictly understood, Islam is a political movement.  Most religions are to some extent (in laying down rules and laws and whatnot), but the core of Islam has not really gotten to the separation of church and state yet.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> I suppose it depends on how you feel about censorship, criminalization of policy differences, etc.
> 
> But that's irrelevant.  "the mainstream has people" is not synonymous with "everyone".


The mainstream leads to the suggestion that the majority in a certain group identify that way. The dominant or conventional thinking of most being that way.

So not everyone, but most. 

Which of course leads to dangerous assumptions. Most on the left are vile would be the next logical leap if you believe that the mainstream of the left is vile.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Unless you plan to read academia, most entertainers and artists, and the left-supporting media out of the mainstream, there's no escaping from the reality that the mainstream is quite happy with manipulating and suppressing information to tell all stories a certain way and to punish those who express other views.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Strictly understood, Islam is a political movement.  Most religions are to some extent (in laying down rules and laws and whatnot), but the core of Islam has not really gotten to the separation of church and state yet.


Yet in Canada Islam isn't trying to put in place any of their laws or doctrines. 

They mostly preach to their followers and leave well enough alone. There is no Islamic party with any large following of muslims. Muslim Canadians vote more for the LPC which is the party of abortion, Gay and LGBTQ rights, legal weed and countless other ideals that do not square with islam.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Altair said:


> Yet in Canada Islam isn't trying to put in place any of their laws or doctrines.
> 
> They mostly preach to their followers and leave well enough alone. There is no Islamic party with any large following of muslims. Muslim Canadians vote more for the LPC which is the party of abortion, Gay and LGBTQ rights, legal weed and countless other ideals that do not square with islam.


When the Sunni Muslim population reaches a critical mass, then the radicals begin to exert their pressure on the rest, they take the long view.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Unless you plan to read academia, most entertainers and artists, and the left-supporting media out of the mainstream, there's no escaping from the reality that the mainstream is quite happy with manipulating and suppressing information to tell all stories a certain way and to punish those who express other views.


While this belongs in it the other thread, this does not change the fact that you would believe that most left leaners are vile. 

Which would be akin to me believing all those on the right are racists or those with white supremacist views because of what Tucker Carlson says on Fox. 

That would be nonsense though, and I obviously wouldn't do that. 

And it detracts from the logical conclusion we should be coming to. 

There exists a segment of society, in this case the far right, who are radicalizing people and some, not all, but some of those people are seeking to do harm to others. There are others on the far left who are radicalizing people as well, but to date they do not have a comparable documented body count that the far right has racked up. 

One can look at the far right and radical islam in the same light.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Good2Golf said:


> Islam, or Islamism?  One’s a religion, while the other is a political ideology/movement.  Numerous references, so won’t pick one specifically, but I would say that you have identified your concern regarding Islamism, not the religion itself.  None of my Muslim friends who follow Islam are anything other than respectful members of our society who peacefully follow a particular religion.
> 
> No?
> 
> Regards
> G2G


The Muslim population is the sea the fish swim in. We are specifically talking about Sunni Muslims who are at the highest risk of been coerced by the radical element. To a lesser extent you see the same thing in the Shia community by the 12th Imaners or IRGC types, although that is by far more of a political agenda wrapped in a religious blanket. I will exclude devout Sufi's and Ismaili from this equation. Sunni Islam as currently preached by most schools of thought is tightly interwoven with political and religious aims. In fact if you look at the Meccan vs Medina verses, you can see the evolution of Muhammad's political thinking. Also by Islamic jurisprudence, the latter verses abrogate the earlier verses whenever there is a conflict in messaging. (Most of the peaceful Islam is in the Meccan and most of the war like is in the Medina era)


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Yet in Canada Islam isn't trying to put in place any of their laws or doctrines.



They don't speak with much authority.  When I want to know about Catholicism, I look to the Vatican.


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> When the Sunni Muslim population reaches a critical mass, then the radicals begin to exert their pressure on the rest, they take the long view.


Yet I look to Europe, and places with large Muslim populations, and while there are tensions in places, the large majority of Muslims work within a countries framework and are not seeking to curtail rights of other muslims or native born Europeans.

So this is completely false to me. I think you need to separate political islam and islam as the religion. Some despots are using the religion as the cover to do the stupid stuff they do, and there are the people who just worship their god, and follow their customs and do not do anything beyond that.

In Canada we have Islam the religion. Same as we have Christianity the religion. And Judaism the religion. Our politics are secular, again, Muslims vote in large part for the party of gay rights, LGBTQ rights, women's equality, more so than the general population who vote for a party that doesn't have those issues as far up in their list of priorities.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> While this belongs in it the other thread, this does not change the fact that you would believe that most left leaners are vile.



You keep trying to shift my assertion that the left mainstream has deeply illiberal people into an assertion that "most" must be so.  I'm not taking the bait, so stop trying to rake together enough straw for that scarecrow.

I can find plenty of dissent and contrary opinion on the right, which is not notorious for calling for people to be exiled and silenced and punished for opinions, policy, and politics.  And the small group of left-liberal outcasts at SubStack, and how they are treated by the people who cast them out, illustrates concretely a problem the left has that the right simply doesn't come close to matching.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> They don't speak with much authority.  When I want to know about Catholicism, I look to the Vatican.


And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.

Islam is made up of sects, and sects within sects, much closer to the gazillion denominations of Protestantism. 

One can even look at western Islam as the reformation Islam has long needed, secular politically, and devout spiritually.  

Canadian and western Muslims are the ideal we want to show towards the world. People, Muslims included want to get away from the unstable nations with no separation of church and state. Here we have it. There is no them and us, there are Canadians.

Christian Canadians. 

Jewish Canadians.

Muslim Canadians.

First Nation Canadians. 

All who can belong to any political party, be friends with anyone else, who live in harmony unless the FIFA world cup is going on or the all Canadian Division of the stanley cup playoffs are going on. 

So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem. 

How much further does it take for the wrong individual to go from "I don't like Islam" to I must kill Islam?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> the large majority of Muslims work within a countries framework and are not seeking to curtail rights of other muslims or native born Europeans.



Yet where they have critical masses - the banlieus of France, Gothenburg in Sweden, neighbourhoods in Britain - we are treated to stories of assaults and rape gangs, and of police who either refrain from treading or are instructed not to tread.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> Strictly understood, Islam is a political movement.  Most religions are to some extent (in laying down rules and laws and whatnot), but the core of Islam has not really gotten to the separation of church and state yet.


Ah, like Anglicanism... 😉


----------



## Brad Sallows

> And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.



Islam has a head; he just happens to be dead.  His book is where you'd look.



> So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like "X" ARE the problem.



When all you can do is demonize ("wrong side of history", "you are the problem") you're exactly what you are railing against.  People have cultural distinctions, and some of the things in which some groups have widespread belief (expressed or not) are illiberal.  There's a whole strain of popular political thought in Canada, highly active right now, devoted to maintaining "them and us".  It gives the lie to any suggestion that no such divisions can or should be tolerated.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Yet where they have critical masses - the banlieus of France, Gothenburg in Sweden, neighbourhoods in Britain - we are treated to stories of assaults and rape gangs, and of police who either refrain from treading or are instructed not to tread.


Yes, if there are neighborhoods of poor, underprivileged, poorly integrated individuals you hear these stories. 

I hear the same stories, I've read the same stories. 

The Jamaicans gangs in Toronto. 

Haitian Gangs in Montreal. 

The Irish were vilified throughout a period of American history. 

So were the Italians. 

A common them versus us that is resolved when a group of people are properly integrated within a society.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Ah, like Anglicanism...



Yeah, but there's a long spectrum between fundamental evangelism and the United Church.  Protestantism is whatever people want it to be.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Altair said:


> So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem.


Now I can say you are wrong.......and know I'm right.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Islam has a head; he just happens to be dead.  His book is where you'd look.


Don't go there. The Bible is a bloody document as well.


Brad Sallows said:


> When all you can do is demonize ("wrong side of history", "you are the problem") you're exactly what you are railing against.  People have cultural distinctions, and some of the things in which some groups have widespread belief (expressed or not) are illiberal.  There's a whole strain of popular political thought in Canada, highly active right now, devoted to maintaining "them and us".  It gives the lie to any suggestion that no such divisions can or should be tolerated.


I'm not vilifying a entire group of people for things they haven't done. 

I'm telling a specific individual that they need to do better. 

I don't like Islam is a problematic statement. There are those who are taking this line of thought and running with it. They go to far but they are starting somewhere. 

I don't like Islam to me is the same as I don't like black people. 

Or I don't like First nations. 

Or I don't like Asians. 

While nothing illegal about the statement, its a problematic statement none the less. And what happens when someone who starts with I don't like (insert here) goes to the next step, and the next step after that? 

Shit like what happened in London happens.


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Now I can say you are wrong.......and know I'm right.


I don't like White people.

I don't like Black people.

I don't like Asians.

| don't like Jews.

Would I be able to get away with saying any of these in the Canadian Armed Forces?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Don't go there. The Bible is a bloody document as well.



Yes it is.  And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I don't like Islam is a problematic statement.



Islam is problematic.  I don't like the parts of it which result in the executions of people for their sexuality, or being women who did the wrong thing.  I don't like the people who defend the countries in which the religion is practiced that way, using the perverted doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Perhaps you are right and western Muslims will reform it.  Once they've done, I'll change my mind.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes it is.  And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.


And Muslims in the west are largely ignoring the bloody bits as well. 

Model citizens most of them. 

They are exactly what we wish the rest of the Muslim world would be, politically secular, spiritually devout. Yet here we are talking about critical mass. 

This after 4 peaceful muslims are attacked by some idiot who hates them simply because they were muslim. 

Its gross.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I don't like Islam to me is the same as I don't like black people.



Perhaps you mean "I don't like Muslims to me is the same as I don't like black people"?

Islam is a system of beliefs, not a people.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Islam is problematic.  I don't like the parts of it which result in the executions of people for their sexuality, or being women who did the wrong thing.


Where is this happening in the west? Where? Canada has a Muslim population of over 1 million people, where is this happening?

And why are Muslims in Canada voting for the party of Gay rights, abortion, LGBTQ rights, women's equality, that, ironically, people who are not Muslims tend to call virtue signaling?


Brad Sallows said:


> I don't like the people who defend the countries in which the religion is practiced that way, using the perverted doctrine of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".  Perhaps you are right and western Muslims will reform it.  Once they've done, I'll change my mind.


You may need to understand, that as secular politically, and devout spiritually, Muslims in the west have largely reformed it locally. Can they do it globally? No, there are political powers that will prevent this from happening in those countries, and I don't feel like sending peaceful Canadian Muslims to their deaths.

But what bone can you possible have to pick with Canadian Muslims? They work hard, they pay their taxes, they don't let their religion influence their vote, when in a position of power they don't use their religion to oppress others, they are pretty much the same as any Jewish family, any Christian family, any atheist family.

They are not Muslims in that sense, they are Canadians.


----------



## OldSolduer

Altair said:


> Yes, if there are neighborhoods of poor, underprivileged, poorly integrated individuals you hear these stories.
> 
> I hear the same stories, I've read the same stories.
> 
> The Jamaicans gangs in Toronto.
> 
> Haitian Gangs in Montreal.
> 
> The Irish were vilified throughout a period of American history.
> 
> So were the Italians.
> 
> A common them versus us that is resolved when a group of people are properly integrated within a society.


And given time most will integrate.

However when they segregate themselves and refuse to at least obey the laws of the land they have emigrated to then its a problem.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Altair said:


> And when you want to know about protestants, where do you look? That is a much closer comparison than the Catholicism, one of the few religions with a official head of the religion.
> 
> Islam is made up of sects, and sects within sects, much closer to the gazillion denominations of Protestantism.
> 
> One can even look at western Islam as the reformation Islam has long needed, secular politically, and devout spiritually.
> 
> Canadian and western Muslims are the ideal we want to show towards the world. People, Muslims included want to get away from the unstable nations with no separation of church and state. Here we have it. There is no them and us, there are Canadians.
> 
> Christian Canadians.
> 
> Jewish Canadians.
> 
> Muslim Canadians.
> 
> First Nation Canadians.
> 
> All who can belong to any political party, be friends with anyone else, who live in harmony unless the FIFA world cup is going on or the all Canadian Division of the stanley cup playoffs are going on.
> 
> So this talk of them and us, and whatever else, that IS the problem. Guys like @Colin Parkinson ARE the problem.
> 
> How much further does it take for the wrong individual to go from "I don't like Islam" to I must kill Islam?


Altair, I know Colin’s backstory and bonifide’s rather better than you do, and I can say, without a doubt, that he has more personal experience with Islam than you or just about anyone else on Army.ca. I would, perhaps, listen carefully to what he has to say. Perhaps he has phrased things inelegantly for your tastes, but he has personally experienced political Islamism.

To be very, very clear, none of what I have just posted is in anyway a defence/endorsement of some dude who decided to run down 4 innocent people. This thread has taken a tangent that is detracting from that tragedy.


----------



## Altair

OldSolduer said:


> And given time most will integrate.
> 
> However when they segregate themselves and refuse to at least obey the laws of the land they have emigrated to then its a problem.


Okay, and in large part, most Muslims in the west have integrated. So we need to realize the reality on the ground.


SeaKingTacco said:


> Altair, I know Colin’s backstory and bonifide’s rather better than you do, and I can say, without a doubt, that he has more personal experience with Islam than you or just about anyone else on Army.ca. I would, perhaps, listen carefully to what he has to say. Perhaps he has phrased things inelegantly for your tastes, but he has personally experienced political Islamism.
> 
> To be very, very clear, none of what I have just posted is in anyway a defence/endorsement of some dude who decided to run down 4 innocent people. This thread has taken a tangent that is detracting from that tragedy.


I don't accept that one can simply issue a blanket statement like "I don't like Islam" after 4 Muslims are targeted by a POS who targeted them because they were Muslim.

I don't accept it any more than someone who says I don't like Jews, I don't like Hindus, I don't like Buddhists.

Those 4 people are dead because someone didn't like Islam/Muslims.

If on 9-11 2001 I said I don't like Americans, these POS went too far, but I don't like Americans, you would be reaming me out, and rightly so. 

If someone was talking about the holocausts and I said I don't like jews, Nazis took it too far, but I don't like jews, it wouldn't be any more right.

So I will say it now until I get a ban or whatever, saying I don't like Islam is wrong. Again, 4 people out for a walk are dead because someone didn't like Islam.

Be better.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Where is this happening in the west? Where? Canada has a Muslim population of over 1 million people, where is this happening?



State executions?  None.  Murders and other abuses (rape, assault).  Some.  Are you able to grasp that it is reasonable to simultaneously:

be intolerant of Islam as a belief system
be intolerant of people who practice the parts of Islam I dislike
be indifferent to the people who ignore the parts of Islam I dislike
assess Islam as problematic, until such time it is reformed

For what it's worth, I feel the same about the Westboro Baptists and whatever they hold to be their canon.  The fact that there are many quiet, peaceful, evangelists doesn't mean I can't be critical.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> saying I don't like Islam is wrong.



"saying I don't like Fascism is wrong".

I should be obvious that a system of belief is subject to criticism and dislike.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> State executions?  None.


Exactly


Brad Sallows said:


> Murders and other abuses (rape, assault).  Some.


As with every other religion or non religion.


Brad Sallows said:


> Are you able to grasp that it is reasonable to simultaneously:
> 
> be intolerant of Islam as a belief system


No, I cannot. No more than I can be intolerant of Judaism as a belief system.


Brad Sallows said:


> be intolerant of people who practice the parts of Islam I dislike


This is fine.


Brad Sallows said:


> be indifferent to the people who ignore the parts of Islam I dislike


Also fine.


Brad Sallows said:


> assess Islam as problematic, until such time it is reformed


This is dumb, as Islam is wide reaching and practiced differently everywhere, as you could compare with evangelists.


Brad Sallows said:


> For what it's worth, I feel the same about the Westboro Baptists and whatever they hold to be their canon.  The fact that there are many quiet, peaceful, evangelists doesn't mean I can't be critical.


Yet you specifically said westboro baptists, and not I dislike evangelists. Why not give islam the same luxury?


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> "saying I don't like Fascism is wrong".
> 
> I should be obvious that a system of belief is subject to criticism and dislike.


Fascism is political.

Islam is a religion.

There are some who make Islam political, but again, in the west, that is not the norm. Same as there are some who make Christianity political, and Judaism political, but those are not the norm, and you would not be going around saying I don't like Judaism or I don't like Christianity.

Everyone in Canada is allowed to practice whatever religion they choose, and so long as it remain spiritual and not political, you, me, anyone should butt the hell out and leave people to believe what they please.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Why not give islam the same luxury?



Because they exist on two radically different scales.  Westboro Baptists and like groups are a tiny minority.

Political ideas and religious ideas are just subsets of ideas.  Ideas are not out of bounds to criticism.  The fact that Islam is a religion doesn't prevent me from taking the secular view that it was deliberately constructed with political aims in mind.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Because they exist on two radically different scales.  Westboro Baptists and like groups are a tiny minority.


There are 1m Muslim Canadians, how many do you think are radicals, or followers of political islam?


----------



## Brad Sallows

There are 1.9B Muslims worldwide; in some cases, entire countries are essentially Muslim and of those some are not particularly enlightened.  I suppose Canadian Muslims must pretty much all practice something different - call it Reform Islam.  My beef is with Islam, the kind the Saudis and Iranians officially practice.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> There are 1.9B Muslims worldwide; in some cases, entire countries are essentially Muslim and of those some are not particularly enlightened.  I suppose Canadian Muslims must pretty much all practice something different - call it Reform Islam.  My beef is with Islam, the kind the Saudis and Iranians officially practice.


Then maybe, just maybe, you can allow yourself to think of them as separate entities and say as much.

I don't like Islam  I don't like Political Islam, Radical Islam

There is nothing wrong with Islam as it is practiced in the west. Lets not lump it in with what Saudi Arabia and Iran have bastardized it into.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Altair said:


> So I will say it now until I get a ban or whatever, saying I don't like Islam is wrong. Again, 4 people out for a walk are dead because someone didn't like Islam.


Wrong......I'll bet he didn't know any Muslims. He's probably never opened the Quran.  He just needed to hate someone/something for his sad-sack life, and unfortunately, these poor souls were an easy target for that hatred.   

People like you push an agenda that right wing people must hate, so guess what, he did hate.  Blame this tragedy on those like yourself who push this " right-wing must equal hate" agenda to make you feel like a virtuous woke person.


----------



## Altair

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Wrong......I'll bet he didn't know any Muslims. He's probably never opened the Quran.  He just needed to hate someone/something for his sad-sack life, and unfortunately, these poor souls were an easy target for that hatred.











						Suspect in alleged London hate killings laughed during arrest: Witness
					

The man charged in an alleged hate-motivated attack that killed four family members in London laughed as police arrested him in a mall parking lot, a…




					lfpress.com
				






> “Nate is not a radical terrorist. He is nothing like that. He is not an Islamophobe. That’s not who this kid is,” said one friend.
> 
> The friend, who hails from the Middle East, said he never heard Veltman say a bad thing about the Middle East or Muslims. “Nate was a very close friend and never said anything bad to me,” the man said.


What did you bet, I'm interested about my winnings.


Bruce Monkhouse said:


> People like you push an agenda that right wing people must hate, so guess what, he did hate.  Blame this tragedy on those like yourself who push this " right-wing must equal hate" agenda to make you feel like a virtuous woke person.


Yes, I made him drive into a Muslim family out for a walk.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> There are 1m Muslim Canadians, how many do you think are radicals, or followers of political islam?


Islam is a *combined* religion and political system. There is no separation between the two.

Individual Muslims, like others, may or may not adhere to the whole package. We are/have been fortunate here, so far at least.

But, just in Kingston, there have been two cases of note. In one, three teenage girls and a former wife were murdered by their father/former husband and at least one brother for family "honour". I lived in the motel (on IR) wherein they were killed for three years, albeit some time afterwards, and learned quite a few details that were not published directly from the manager.

There was a Muslim youth arrested and charged with terrorism here a few years ago. No details have been released. As this case has only seen sporadic mention in the media of late, I cannot remember if he has gone to court, been convicted, or been sentenced. The case was considered serious enough to hold him without bail.

I have also watched a lot of footage of recent pro-Hamas rallies in Toronto and elsewhere lately, and Quds Day marches in Toronto over the last couple of years. There are those who support violence, even if only in word so far.

I have a few Muslim neighbours. The two Syrian families who lived on both sides of me moved out into larger houses, much to my regret. I have never had better neighbours, and I have mentioned them several times in the past.

I've also had interesting conversations with Iraqi Christians who were forced to leave and come here. When once they got along quite well with their Muslim neighbours, the situation deteriorated over time to the point where they were concerned for their lives. They had little charitable to say about their former neighbours.

I can separate Muslims and Islam in my mind quite easily. Islam represents a potential threat here, eventually, and a very real and current one elsewhere. This threat should not be underestimated. The onset of problems seems to occur at about the ten-percent-of-population point. We have yet to reach that. Immigration has also been much slower here than in Europe, Britain, and Scandinavia, which were suddenly overrun en masse. A large proportion of the "refugees"/"migrants" who flooded into Europe, Britain, and Scandinavia were military-age young men rather than family groups as we have received here and they have very much ben a problem. Both time and the nature of the Muslims that have come here have enabled better integration, and I hope that that persists.

I can still view Islam as a potential threat, or not like much of its teachings, and welcome Muslims.

I can also respect Mohammed as a great and accomplished warlord. Whether he was God's ultimate prophet, to whom God directly dictated the Qu'ran, or a cunning opportunist who grafted a political philosophy onto the two pre-existing Abrahamic religions purely to unite Arabs and lead/inspire them to conquer the middle east and much of southern Europe, I cannot say. I can neither prove nor disprove either theory, and have no interest in attempting either one.

Christianity was once spread largely largely by the sword, but more latterly by persuasion. Islam is still spread by the sword in many places.

But all of that aside, I despise every form of unjustifiable and immoral violence to anybody, for any excuse.

And the victims of this vile attack were *good people*, and much better people than their attacker.

We all lost.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> And that previous attack, did we start thinking it was road rage?
> 
> Personal vendetta?
> 
> I don't think we did, it was obviously a targeted attack on soldiers.
> 
> And it was called terrorism.
> 
> So a Muslim man uses vehicle to target and kill a soldier, terror attack. No problems.


WO Patrice Vincent was a member of 1 Wing.

I was at work when he was deliberately struck and killed, and his companion, also a CF member, injured in a strip mall parking lot.

We followed the story closely as it developed, through a police chase to the point when the attacker - a recent convert to Islam, "known to police", and very much radicalized - lost control of and rolled his weapon, got out, and lunged at a policewoman with a knife and was shot dead. He'd actually called 911 during the chase and clearly stated that he had carried out the attack for Allah.

There was little doubt that this was a terrorist attack.


----------



## Loachman

PMedMoe said:


> Turns out the suspect was wearing body armor.  Terrorism? Maybe not.  Hate crime? Probably.  Premeditated? Definitely.
> 
> Man suspected of killing Canadian Muslim family was motivated by hate


Maybe. That has not been confirmed, at least not by this morning. He was apparently an airsofter, which could well account for items that "looked like" body armour and military helmet but would lack any protective capability.

But I agree with your assessment. I don't see any political aspect, so no terrorism, and I don't think that he just drove at the first random family that he saw crossing the road, and it was not an accident.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> The left is fine.
> 
> You're talking about the far left.
> 
> Both sides of the spectrum has extremists and extremist views.( though I have yet to see a radical centralist)
> 
> And you won't see me dressing up either extreme. I will say that the far right has had a much higher body count, and thus are the more deadly of the two extremes but you won't see me apologizing for either.


If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.

In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.

So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...

Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?

I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.

I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, *and* all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.


----------



## Good2Golf

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes it is.  And most of the bloody bits are pretty much entirely ignored by contemporary Christians and Jews, throughout the world.


Pretty much but not entirely...same as the Qur’an and most contemporary Muslims.

Is there a definitive source for what percentage of each contemporary religion around the world is extremized?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Good2Golf said:


> Pretty much but not entirely...same as the Qur’an and most contemporary Muslims.
> 
> Is there a definitive source for what percentage of each contemporary religion around the world is extremized?


Depends on who decides what is “extreme”, doesn’t it?

I am sure that a significant portion of Canadian First Nations people view the entirety of Catholicism as “extreme”…


----------



## CBH99

Loachman said:


> If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.
> 
> In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.
> 
> So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...
> 
> Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?
> 
> I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.
> 
> I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, *and* all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.


I just wrote a lengthy, rambling post - only to find you posted a much more elegantly worded version.  

Extremism on either side is bad.  I think we can all agree... "Extremism.  Is.  Bad."  



We should also remember that a majority of people throughout the world, regardless of their religion, all want the same thing.  They want to live somewhere safe and peaceful, to work at something they find meaningful, for their kids to be safe and be able to obtain an education/future options, and to love and be loved by their family and friends.  

Extremists on either side of the spectrum are separate from the majority.  Extreme anything is bad, not just religion.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> If we consider the global body count, the far left is w - a - y out in front. Communism has killed many millions in many places.


I don't disagree,  but we are talking local.


Loachman said:


> In the US alone, Muslim terrorists won the trophy on 11 September 2001. I got back home from dropping my boys off at school to see smoke trailing from the first tower struck but didn't think too much of it until I saw the first replay of the first airliner sink into it, followed by the fireball - and then over and over until the second struck. And then everything else through that whole day.


Yet since September 12th, one is more likely to die to far right terror, followed by radical Islam.


Loachman said:


> So are Muslim terrorists far-left, or far-right? Religion is not associated with the far-left...


Religion doesn't fall on the political spectrum. So call it what it is, religious based terror, not political based terror.


Loachman said:


> Far-left violence is relatively easy to identify, especially when they identify themselves as Marxists, but what makes a violent/hate-filled person "far-right"?


extreme nationalist, xenophobic, racist,  fundamentalist.

That's the straight and narrow of it. A conservative may be of the opinion that immigration control and secure borders are a good thing(those on the left being more open to more immigration)

A far right individual would be of the opinion that new immigrants are invading their country, raping the women, are a nuisance that needs to be eliminated.

in other words, closer to the right wing of the political spectrum, but a extreme and dangerous version of it.

In this example of London ON, someone may have the opinion that political Islam is problematic, and that we need to ensure that everyone is integrating into Canadian society and not bringing the troubles of the middle east here.

A far right individual would be of the impression that Muslims are invading Canada, putting in sharia law, he'll bent on oppression and subjugation of the Canadian population, and as such, must be eliminated.



Loachman said:


> I seriously believe that that term is an invention of the far-left to smear conservatives. It is consistent with their historical tactics.


I have not, and I don't think anyone here is equating a run of the mill conservative with a far right individual who is of the opinion that one must kill all the Muslims to save Canada from sharia law.


Loachman said:


> I don't mind dropping the left/right labels too much. Extremism is extremism, whatever motivates it, *and* all forms of extremism need to be neutralized.


We must also be cognizant of where it is coming from.

If it's the radicalized left,it's the radicalizedleft, if it's the radicalized right, it's the radicalized right, if it's radical Islam, it's radical Islam.

But we need to call a spade a spade. It does nobody any damn good to sugar coat it.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> I agree that radicals of every type are horrible for society, but people, again, need to learn to separate the average run of the mill person who represents the majority of every group who just wants to live their lives in peace, and those who would do us harm.



Yes, yes, and yes.

One thing that I have learned from meeting people during various travels and here at home over many years, and through historical studies, is that, at our cores, we are all - aberrant few aside - the same, with a few relatively minor cultural differences (which make such interactions much more interesting).

All reasonable people want to live their lives in safety and security as they see fit, with a decent standard of living and minimum interference from their government, and provide better lives for their children.

But Islam teaches things that are inconsistent with modern western society and our concepts of individual freedom.

Muslims that accept and follow our laws - as the vast majority do, as individual freedom is attractive to most people - are fine. I have enjoyed good chats and discussions - including discussions about religion - and some excellent food with many whom I have known. We can all - and should - learn from each other.

But a relative yet significant few interpret the Qu'ran and Hadiths literally, and can cause problems.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> Yes, yes, and yes.
> 
> One thing that I have learned from meeting people during various travels and here at home over many years, and through historical studies, is that, at our cores, we are all - aberrant few aside - the same, with a few relatively minor cultural differences (which make such interactions much more interesting).
> 
> All reasonable people want to live their lives in safety and security as they see fit, with a decent standard of living and minimum interference from their government, and provide better lives for their children.
> 
> But Islam teaches things that are inconsistent with modern western society and our concepts of individual freedom.


So does Christianity. Stone the gays, stone the adulterous women, many wives, owning slaves, all that jazz.

But there are the teachings of religions dating back over 1000 years and what is actually done.

Christianity doesn't follow the Bible as law, nor do Jews follow the Torah as law, and Muslims do not follow the Koran as law, at least not in the west.

So maybe don't say Islam teaches things that are inconsistent with modern western society. Every religion does. And if Islam is no different, then it doesn't need to be brought up.


Loachman said:


> Muslims that accept and follow our laws - as the vast majority do, as individual freedom is attractive to most people - are fine. I have enjoyed good chats and discussions - including discussions about religion - and some excellent food with many whom I have known. We can all - and should - learn from each other.


So you already unconsciously separate political Islam and spiritual Islam. Don't lump them together and you realize that one doesn't need to make blanket statements about Islam.


Loachman said:


> But a relative yet significant few interpret the Qu'ran and Hadiths literally, and can cause problems.


It's so few as to be almost a statistical  anomaly as opposed to any great problem.

The NS shooter killed more people in Canada than radical Islamists have in 20 years.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Meanwhile in the Muslim countries and in the name of Muslim Brotherhood.......









						Uyghurs are being deported from Muslim countries, raising concerns about China's growing reach | CNN
					

After reports of Uyghur disappearances in some major Arab countries, such as the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, some of China's ethnic Muslims fear they are no longer safe in parts of the Islamic world.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

> There is nothing wrong with Islam as it is practiced in the west. Lets not lump it in with what Saudi Arabia and Iran have bastardized it into.



Let's do it the other way.  What Saudi Arabia and Iran have is Islam; what is practiced in the west is something different.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> Yet since September 12th, one is more likely to die to far right terror, followed by radical Islam.



I remain unconvinced about "far right terror", or deaths being the only unit of measurement.

I think that media are all to willing to ascribe attacks to the "far-right" due to ignorance or to push an agenda.

They often lose interest when a tragedy does not match their purpose.

The number of injuries, especially major ones, receive too little interest.

Property destruction and damage are also important, as they destroy local economies and communities. Most of that happens in local neighbourhoods, often poor ones, wherein small businesses cannot recover from even small losses. That not only destroys the income of the business owner(s), but their employees as well, and deprives communities - the residents of which often have no means of shopping elsewhere - of sources of necessary products.



Altair said:


> Religion doesn't fall on the political spectrum. So call it what it is, religious based terror, not political based terror.



I'm content with that.



Altair said:


> extreme nationalist, xenophobic, racist,  fundamentalist.



I can accept that, although I don't see most of it as a continuation of the right spectrum. Conservatives tend not to prioritize race or country of origin, but personal character. People on the extreme left are also racist, but more subtly so with outward racism while simultaneously blatantly racist inwardly - as in professing hatred towards members of their own race. "Racism" seems to have supplanted the older concept of classism.



Altair said:


> That's the straight and narrow of it. A conservative may be of the opinion that immigration control and secure borders are a good thing(those on the left being more open to more immigration)
> 
> A far right individual would be of the opinion that new immigrants are invading their country, raping the women, are a nuisance that needs to be eliminated.
> 
> in other words, closer to the right wing of the political spectrum, but a extreme and dangerous version of it.



The key difference is the means of immigration.

Legal and controlled immigration is fine.

Illegal and uncontrolled immigration is not.

A sizeable portion of the Hispanic community in the US are very vehemently opposed to illegal immigration for several reasons - resentment against those that cheated while they followed the rules, waited patiently to be admitted, and paid the costs of admission for one, and because they do not appreciate being assumed to have arrived illegally by some. Drugs flooding in with illegal aliens also affect their communities and they do not like that.



Altair said:


> In this example of London ON, someone may have the opinion that political Islam is problematic, and that we need to ensure that everyone is integrating into Canadian society and not bringing the troubles of the middle east here.
> 
> A far right individual would be of the impression that Muslims are invading Canada, putting in sharia law, he'll bent on oppression and subjugation of the Canadian population, and as such, must be eliminated.



I see the difference, but, again, not a link to "rightism".



Altair said:


> I have not, and I don't think anyone here is equating a run of the mill conservative with a far right individual who is of the opinion that one must kill all the Muslims to save Canada from sharia law.



I do not take what you have said that way.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Altair said:


> Yet I look to Europe, and places with large Muslim populations, and while there are tensions in places, the large majority of Muslims work within a countries framework and are not seeking to curtail rights of other muslims or native born Europeans.
> 
> So this is completely false to me. I think you need to separate political islam and islam as the religion. Some despots are using the religion as the cover to do the stupid stuff they do, and there are the people who just worship their god, and follow their customs and do not do anything beyond that.
> 
> In Canada we have Islam the religion. Same as we have Christianity the religion. And Judaism the religion. Our politics are secular, again, Muslims vote in large part for the party of gay rights, LGBTQ rights, women's equality, more so than the general population who vote for a party that doesn't have those issues as far up in their list of priorities.


There is no separating political and religious Islam, they are one and the same. Now there are Muslims that do not follow the Quran word for word, and want to live in peace, but there are a lot that also want the world to be more Islamic and many of them live here.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Let's do it the other way.  What Saudi Arabia and Iran have is Islam; what is practiced in the west is something different.


Well, you should make the onus to separate the two and not issue blanket statements about Islam.


----------



## Altair

Colin Parkinson said:


> There is no separating political and religious Islam, they are one and the same.



Except that Canadian Muslims are politically secular and spiritually devout. What problems do you have with this? Is this not what we want muslims everywhere to be like?

Someone who practices their religion in peace and doesn't engage in political islam, how is that not separate? Is mayor Nenshi a example of political Islam? 


Colin Parkinson said:


> Now there are Muslims that do not follow the Quran word for word, and want to live in peace, but there are a lot that also want the world to be more Islamic and many of them live here.


There are 1 million Canadian muslims. How many are a lot?


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Well, you should make the onus to separate the two and not issue blanket statements about Islam.



Saudi- and Iranian style Islam is the problem.  Whatever you want to call westernized Islam is the other thing you keep returning to.

Whatever threat levels the spooks want to guess at is fine; I suppose all the artists and humourists who readily treat Christianity and crazy right-extremists with disrespect and irreverence and refrain from doing the same to Islam are all wrong.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> I remain unconvinced about "far right terror", or deaths being the only unit of measurement.
> 
> I think that media are all to willing to ascribe attacks to the "far-right" due to ignorance or to push an agenda.


If someone is part of a group like the proud boys or KKK and they kill someone, or are parts of online groups that are like minded, what do you call them?


Loachman said:


> Property destruction and damage are also important, as they destroy local economies and communities. Most of that happens in local neighbourhoods, often poor ones, wherein small businesses cannot recover from even small losses. That not only destroys the income of the business owner(s), but their employees as well, and deprives communities - the residents of which often have no means of shopping elsewhere - of sources of necessary products.


Property may be repaired, recovered. Lives? Lost forever. Lets not equate the two.


Loachman said:


> I can accept that, although I don't see most of it as a continuation of the right spectrum. Conservatives tend not to prioritize race or country of origin, but personal character. People on the extreme left are also racist, but more subtly so with outward racism while simultaneously blatantly racist inwardly - as in professing hatred towards members of their own race. "Racism" seems to have supplanted the older concept of classism.


Conservatives no. Far right? Yes. Which is why I separate the two.


Loachman said:


> The key difference is the means of immigration.
> 
> Legal and controlled immigration is fine.
> 
> Illegal and uncontrolled immigration is not.
> 
> A sizeable portion of the Hispanic community in the US are very vehemently opposed to illegal immigration for several reasons - resentment against those that cheated while they followed the rules, waited patiently to be admitted, and paid the costs of admission for one, and because they do not appreciate being assumed to have arrived illegally by some. Drugs flooding in with illegal aliens also affect their communities and they do not like that.


You're right. But you wont find that sizeable portion of the Hispanic community in the US mowing down immigrants in a Walmart in El Paso Texas. 

Again, most run of the mill people on both sides are fine. Its the extremists. Stop getting defensive over me saying the extremists on the right are a problem.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> So does Christianity. Stone the gays, stone the adulterous women, many wives, owning slaves, all that jazz.



I am no biblical scholar, but I am pretty sure that that changed with the New Testament, with Jesus saying such things as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Love the sinner but hate the sin".

Islam has yet to make that change.



Altair said:


> Christianity doesn't follow the Bible as law, nor do Jews follow the Torah as law, and Muslims do not follow the Koran as law, at least not in the west.
> 
> So maybe don't say Islam teaches things that are inconsistent with modern western society. Every religion does. And if Islam is no different, then it doesn't need to be brought up.



Christianity is not a combined religious and political system. It *is* different.



Altair said:


> So you already unconsciously separate political Islam and spiritual Islam.



No. I do not.

I do, however - and consciously - make a distinction between individual Muslims and Islam.



Altair said:


> It's so few as to be almost a statistical  anomaly as opposed to any great problem.



As are many things. That does not mean that they, too, should not be considered seriously.



Altair said:


> The NS shooter killed more people in Canada than radical Islamists have in 20 years.



Sikh extremists outdid him by far, if you're willing to go back a few years further, although while the crime was initiated within Canadian borders, the deaths occurred over open ocean.

Who picks the starting point, and on what basis?


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Saudi- and Iranian style Islam is the problem.


Yes.


Brad Sallows said:


> Whatever you want to call westernized Islam is the other thing you keep returning to.


I call it Islam. Its the Islam I run into every day in Canada. Its the norm. Its the beautiful ideal of Islam that I wish every country could adopt. Its the Islam that doesn't deserve to be lumped in to what those backward nutjobs have tried to make it seem like.


Brad Sallows said:


> Whatever threat levels the spooks want to guess at is fine; I suppose all the artists and humourists who readily treat Christianity and crazy right-extremists with disrespect and irreverence and refrain from doing the same to Islam are all wrong.


The spooks were all over radical Islam for a generation post 9-11. 

Those same spooks are sounding the alarm over far right threats. That should be telling.


----------



## Good2Golf

SeaKingTacco said:


> Depends on who decides what is “extreme”, doesn’t it?
> 
> I am sure that a significant portion of Canadian First Nations people view the entirety of Catholicism as “extreme”…


Exactly (and Protestants too).  

We (non-Muslim) can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) say “they (Muslims) have extremes, we don’t” and expect to hold the high moral ground...


----------



## lenaitch

Loachman said:


> Maybe. That has not been confirmed, at least not by this morning. He was apparently an airsofter, which could well account for items that "looked like" body armour and military helmet but would lack any protective capability.
> 
> But I agree with your assessment*. I don't see any political aspect, so no terrorism*, and I don't think that he just drove at the first random family that he saw crossing the road, and it was not an accident.




It's a little broader than that:

CC Sec 83.01(1), in part

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,


(i) that is committed
(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and


(B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada . . .


Note that clause A and B are connected by the word "and".


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> Except that Canadian Muslims are politically secular and spiritually devout.



The majority, and many are not particularly devout - which is what got those three girls here in Kingston killed a little over a decade ago. They weren't "devout" enough to satisfy their father and brother.



Altair said:


> Is this not what we want muslims everywhere to be like?



Yes. Other Muslims, however, do not.



Altair said:


> Someone who practices their religion in peace and doesn't engage in political islam, how is that not separate?



Islam is not purely a religion, like Christianity, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or Pastafarianism.

It is *also* and *simultaneously* a political system.


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Don't go there. The Bible is a bloody document as well.
> 
> I'm not vilifying a entire group of people for things they haven't done.
> 
> I'm telling a specific individual that they need to do better.
> 
> I don't like Islam is a problematic statement. There are those who are taking this line of thought and running with it. They go to far but they are starting somewhere.
> 
> I don't like Islam to me is the same as I don't like black people.
> 
> Or I don't like First nations.
> 
> Or I don't like Asians.
> 
> While nothing illegal about the statement, its a problematic statement none the less. And what happens when someone who starts with I don't like (insert here) goes to the next step, and the next step after that?
> 
> Shit like what happened in London happens.


Uh, Islam isn’t a race... it would be the same as saying you don’t like the Mormon way of life.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> I am no biblical scholar, but I am pretty sure that that changed with the New Testament, with Jesus saying such things as "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "Love the sinner but hate the sin".


Heh. My Pastor told me the bible was the word of God and we cannot question Gods word. 

That seems incompatible with western society now that I think about it.


Loachman said:


> Islam has yet to make that change.


Yet....western Muslims have. Again, unless you can explain how Canadian Muslims vote en masse for the LPC, who love gays, LGBTQ, women's equality, all stuff that political Islam rails against. Can you make sense of that?


Loachman said:


> Christianity is not a combined religious and political system. It *is* different.


Neither is Islam. Is Mayor Nenshi a example of Political Islam?


Loachman said:


> No. I do not.
> 
> I do, however - and consciously - make a distinction between individual Muslims and Islam.


Yes so all the individuals are not practicing political Islam....makes one think Islam in the west Muslims do not practice political Islam...

Its almost like they are politically secular and spiritually devout...like every other religion....

Go figure.


Loachman said:


> As are many things. That does not mean that they, too, should not be considered seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> Sikh extremists outdid him by far, if you're willing to go back a few years further, although while the crime was initiated within Canadian borders, the deaths occurred over open ocean.
> 
> Who picks the starting point, and on what basis?


20 years is a generation, lets go with that.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> Uh, Islam isn’t a race... it would be the same as saying you don’t like the Mormon way of life.


Fine, I don't Jews. Better? Explain that away.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> If someone is part of a group like the proud boys or KKK and they kill someone, or are parts of online groups that are like minded, what do you call them?



I am unaware of the Proud Boys killing anybody. If I remember correctly, their current or last leader is/was Hispanic. They began as a joke, and I do not see them as a real threat. The KKK, as I have said, are a creation of the Democrat party, which is not "far-right".



Altair said:


> Property may be repaired, recovered. Lives? Lost forever. Lets not equate the two.





Altair said:


> Stop getting defensive over me saying the extremists on the right are a problem.



Property may not always be rebuilt. Many of those who lost property cannot afford to replace it, ever. Their lives and livelihoods are shattered.

That cannot be simply waved away.

And I'm not defensive, nor am I saying that extremists are not a problem. I merely disagree with terminology.


----------



## Loachman

lenaitch said:


> It's a little broader than that:
> 
> CC Sec 83.01(1), in part
> 
> (b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,
> 
> 
> (i) that is committed
> (A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and
> 
> 
> (B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada . . .
> 
> 
> Note that clause A and B are connected by the word "and".



So what, then, differentiates a hate crime from a terrorist attack?


----------



## QV

Altair said:


> Fine, I don't Jews. Better? Explain that away.


I’m not racist, I’d never say I hate a specific race.  But there are ideologies I don’t agree with.


----------



## Altair

Loachman said:


> I am unaware of the Proud Boys killing anybody. If I remember correctly, they current or last leader is/was Hispanic. They began as a joke, and I do not see them as a real threat. The KKK, as I have said, are a creation of the Democrat party, which is not "far-right".



You are aware that the Democratic Party was the conservative party until sometime between Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt at which point it became the left leaning party and the KKK was founded in 1865?


Loachman said:


> Property may not always be rebuilt. Many of those who lost property cannot afford to replace it, ever. Their lives and livelihoods are shattered.


But they are not DEAD. Its hard to reverse death. Death is a very permanent thing. 


Loachman said:


> That cannot be simply waved away.


I would rather be completely and utterly broke, than dead.


Loachman said:


> And I'm not defensive, nor am I saying that extremists are not a problem. I merely disagree with terminology.


Far right should not be a controversial terminology.


----------



## Altair

QV said:


> I’m not racist, I’d never say I hate a specific race.  But there are ideologies I don’t agree with.


Okay, so its okay for someone to go around saying they do not like jews?

Could I say that in the CAF?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Altair said:


> You are aware that the Democratic Party was the conservative party until sometime between Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt at which point it became the left leaning party and the KKK was founded in 1865?



The Democrats were rarely a conservative party unless you're using the American media's definitions ~ and they don't understand what liberal and conservative really mean. The Southern Flip, the slow death of the Dixiecrats and the move of the South away from the Democrats and towards the Republicans, started in the 1960s and '70s ... long, long after FDR, even after LBJ. It wasn't complete until after the Reagan Era. Some suggest that the Dixiecrats are rising again ~ Biden won Georgia, after all.


----------



## lenaitch

Loachman said:


> So what, then, differentiates a hate crime from a terrorist attack?


I stand to be corrected as I have been out for a very long time, but my understanding is the only hate 'crime' in Canada under the Criminal Code is 'willfully promoting hatred' ('hate speech').  All other aspects are sentencing guidelines for the court, after conviction of course, if they determine the substantive offence was motivated by hate, bias or prejudice on certain named grounds.  There are also a myriad of provincial human rights legislations, but they aren't criminal law.


----------



## Loachman

lenaitch said:


> I stand to be corrected as I have been out for a very long time, but my understanding is the only hate 'crime' in Canada under the Criminal Code is 'willfully promoting hatred' ('hate speech').  All other aspects are sentencing guidelines for the court, after conviction of course, if they determine the substantive offence was motivated by hate, bias or prejudice on certain named grounds.  There are also a myriad of provincial human rights legislations, but they aren't criminal law.


Thanks.

It seems that the distinction can be subtle.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:


> You are aware that the Democratic Party was the conservative party until sometime between Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt at which point it became the left leaning party and the KKK was founded in 1865?



I don't see supporting slavery as a particularly conservative value - and Britain and Canada had already abolished slavery by the time of the US Civil War.



Altair said:


> But they are not DEAD. Its hard to reverse death. Death is a very permanent thing.
> 
> I would rather be completely and utterly broke, than dead.



Yet many people choose death over economic devastation.









						Around one in five suicides linked to unemployment
					

Claire Niedzwiedz summarises the Lancet Psychiatry longitudinal modelling study of suicide and unemployment.




					www.nationalelfservice.net
				






Altair said:


> Far right should not be a controversial terminology.



To some, perhaps.


----------



## Altair

Edward Campbell said:


> The Democrats were rarely a conservative party unless you're using the American media's definitions ~ and they don't understand what liberal and conservative really mean. The Southern Flip, the slow death of the Dixiecrats and the move of the South away from the Democrats and towards the Republicans, started in the 1960s and '70s ... long, long after FDR, even after LBJ.


Barry Goldwater only won in the south, no?


Edward Campbell said:


> It wasn't complete until after the Reagan Era. Some suggest that the Dixiecrats are rising again ~ Biden won Georgia, after all.


FDR was the start of the progressive and left agenda, would you not say?


----------



## Loachman

Edward Campbell said:


> Some suggest that the Dixiecrats are rising again ~ Biden won Georgia, after all.



Yet many states, including Georgia, are following Arizona's lead and initiating forensic investigations into the conduct of the last election and cleaning up their election laws.

But that's another topic, and I also have things to do that I have been ignoring for too long tonight.


----------



## Weinie

Altair said:


> Heh. My Pastor told me the bible was the word of God and we cannot question Gods word.
> 
> That seems incompatible with western society now that I think about it.
> 
> Yet....western Muslims have. *Again, unless you can explain how Canadian Muslims vote en masse for the LPC, who love gays, LGBTQ, women's equality, all stuff that political Islam rails against. Can you make sense of that?*
> 
> Neither is Islam. Is Mayor Nenshi a example of Political Islam?
> 
> Yes so all the individuals are not practicing political Islam....makes one think Islam in the west Muslims do not practice political Islam...
> 
> Its almost like they are politically secular and spiritually devout...like every other religion....
> 
> Go figure.
> 
> 20 years is a generation, lets go with that.


There are only two real viable political alternatives within Canada, Liberal or Conservative. So do Canadian Muslims vote for a political imperative that encourages immigration and liberal approaches on policy, or an imperative that espouses less immigration and conservative approaches. Methinks the former. Realpolitik is rampant. Liberals views on a variety of topics, many of which are anathema to Islam,  is irrelevant in this context.


----------



## lenaitch

London Police Chief on holding back releasing information to protect the investigation.  Item 5 in the story reflects how much we are affected by US laws and media.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-muslim-family-attack-police-chief-explains-1.6059198


----------



## mariomike

Weinie said:


> So do Canadian Muslims vote for a political imperative that encourages immigration and liberal approaches on policy, or an imperative that espouses less immigration and conservative approaches. Methinks the former.


Methinks this is how Canadian Muslims vote.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-environics-muslims-politics-1.3555216


----------



## Brad Sallows

> FDR was the start of the progressive and left agenda, would you not say?



Earlier.   Woodrow Wilson.


----------



## Altair

Brad Sallows said:


> Earlier.   Woodrow Wilson.


i agree, it why I originally said between the two Roosevelts.


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:


> Could we stay on topic? It's literally like everytime someone mentions the US Federal politics you jump in to quote 4 irrelevant words and turn them into a tangent.


Message: "If you want to talk about the US election there is a thread for that."

Thanks. That's a nice suggestion.  I tried to reply there. But, the "thread for that" is locked.


----------



## OldSolduer

QV said:


> I’m not racist, I’d never say I hate a specific race.  But there are ideologies I don’t agree with.


There's quite a few I disagree with.


----------



## PuckChaser

mariomike said:


> Message: "If you want to talk about the US election there is a thread for that."
> 
> Thanks. That's a nice suggestion.  I tried to reply there. But, the "thread for that" is locked.


I'm not one to tell people how to suck eggs, but maybe take the hint with it being locked?


----------



## mariomike

PuckChaser said:


> , but maybe take the hint with it being locked?


Hope it stays locked. He's gone.

Which is why I was amused by your suggestion: "If you want to talk about the US election there is a thread for that."


----------



## Remius

So an interesting article why the killer in London might not actually face terrorism charges and how hard it is due to the way the law is designed.  



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/terrorism-charges-london-muslim-1.6057483
		


Also so we are having a decent discussion on terrorism vs hate crimes.  This happened in Toronto.  



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/hanlans-point-toronto-beating-1.6059091
		


so a hate crime but not  necessary terrorism despite the fact that a gay person might now feel unsafe walking at night because of this.


----------



## brihard

I know the admins have a room to hash this stuff out. I also know we have a ‘Muslim’ edition of this thread too; I think a couple of the past few pages can probably be moved or split.

Aaaanyway, lots of interesting discussion. I guess from my perspective I’d be interested to know if we’re concerned about writing history or writing Ops plans.

On the occasions where my employer feels it necessary to yank me from behind my desk to throw me out on the road and pretending I’m a real cop again, there are a few things I worry a bit more or a bit less about.

If the ‘far left’ is out in numbers, (which in our context is generally gonna be what could loosely be described as people who identify with antifa, black bloc, etc, I’ll worry that some windows are gonna get smashed and I might be getting some piss bottles thrown at me.

If my fear is a vehicle trying to become one with a crowd, or an active shooter, trends in radical violence suggest the greatest likelihood will be someone of a radicalized Islamist bent (Islamist versus merely being Muslim), or potentially a far right radical (this iverlaps, or someone of the ‘incel’ persuasion who is displeased with women not being attracted to his casual misogyny. These last few categories will likely have some overlap, probably an angry, young, single man who feels he is not where he should be romantically, socially, or economically.

In terms of formed plots with more than one perpetrator, with some sort of violent and ideological intent including loss of human life, odds are very good that you’re looking at either some hard right anti-government types, or radical islamists... the latter can overlap with the lone actors. Daesh’s ideology is still a threat.

The things that have actually happened in Canada recently lean heavily hard right / incel/anti Muslim. Minassian wanted to slaughter women. Bossi eye wanted to slaughter Muslims. Burden intended harm to the Prime Minister. Patrick Matthews, though he did his stupidity on the other side of the border, is hard right. Parliament Hill and Quebec were both radical islamist ideology, though also mentally ill lone Wolf actors. Similarly, the guy who went rogue in a U haul in Edmonton after stabbing a cop.

Canada does not have one universally applicable definition of ‘terrorism’. The Criminal Code defines it quite specifically, and to get those charges tight elements must be hit. A case may be factually, politically, and academically terrorism, but the evidence to achieve a viable prosecution either may not exist, may not be accessible (e.g., encrypted communications) or may not be admissible in court (e.g., national security intelligence). It’s a hell of a lot easier to write a search warrant for straight murder than for terrorism. In these cases, such mundane charges as ‘uttering threats’ and ‘murder’ may need to suffice, judicially. They may not suffice politically, but the latter system can only go so far in pushing the former. In this latest case, we’ll see if police have what they need.


----------



## Jarnhamar

lenaitch said:


> London Police Chief on holding back releasing information to protect the investigation.  Item 5 in the story reflects how much we are affected by US laws and media.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-muslim-family-attack-police-chief-explains-1.6059198


(I'm clearly biased against Trudeau and the LPC so it's undoubtedly colouring my views)

I'm curious about this. 
The police had enough evidence to release this attack was *planned, premeditated and motivated by hate* within the first 24 hours. 
Within 48 hours the prime minister was calling it an act of terrorism and promising to redouble efforts against online and offline hate. (did he promise new initiatives or something?)

With such a clear cut case of a hate-motivated attack and terrorism, the police are worried about protecting the investigation now? It seems like the jury is already out.

For arguments sake say this guy had mental health illness and "just" a murderer and not a terrorist who stalked this family and singled them out murderer. 
Is the whole hate-crime terrorism thing going to be easy to walk back? How would the PM prematurely calling this terrorism impact his trial? Would there be pressure to make the charges fit? We know what happened with JWR and the PM trying to make the rules fit his beliefs with SNC.
​


----------



## mariomike

Remius said:


> This happened in Toronto.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/hanlans-point-toronto-beating-1.6059091
> 
> 
> 
> so a hate crime but not  necessary terrorism despite the fact that a gay person might now feel unsafe walking at night because of this.


If interested in the subject,

Murder Village​Stories of Murder in Toronto's Gay Village





						Murder Village – Stories of Murder in Toronto's Gay Village
					






					murdervillage.com


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> If the ‘far left’ is out in numbers, (which in our context is generally gonna be what could loosely be described as people who identify with antifa, black bloc, etc, I’ll worry that some windows are gonna get smashed and I might be getting some piss bottles thrown at me.


IMO Truly far left TRUE BELIEVERS  don't smash windows, riot etc. They sew the seeds and let the blooming idiots who are "down for this, stick it to the man" do their dirty work for them.


----------



## lenaitch

Jarnhamar said:


> (I'm clearly biased against Trudeau and the LPC so it's undoubtedly colouring my views)
> 
> I'm curious about this.
> The police had enough evidence to release this attack was *planned, premeditated and motivated by hate* within the first 24 hours.
> Within 48 hours the prime minister was calling it an act of terrorism and promising to redouble efforts against online and offline hate. (did he promise new initiatives or something?)
> 
> With such a clear cut case of a hate-motivated attack and terrorism, the police are worried about protecting the investigation now? It seems like the jury is already out.
> 
> For arguments sake say this guy had mental health illness and "just" a murderer and not a terrorist who stalked this family and singled them out murderer.
> Is the whole hate-crime terrorism thing going to be easy to walk back? How would the PM prematurely calling this terrorism impact his trial? Would there be pressure to make the charges fit? We know what happened with JWR and the PM trying to make the rules fit his beliefs with SNC.
> ​



Lots of things are said in the media and public forum.  What puts the puck in the net in court is the evidence tendered under oath.  The police apparently have reasonable grounds to believe (a) that homicide was committed and (b) that it was motivated by hate.  Other than 'inciting hatred' ('hate speech'), the hate motivation will only come into play when the court, hopefully, considers sentencing; although with an automatic life sentence, the only real impact would be consecutive sentences if that remains open, and possibly future parole hearings.  There's really nothing to walk back - the court either buys it or not.

As Brihard mentions, some information the police may have or will have might not be admissible.

Have the police said this was an act of terrorism?  I don't know, I haven't parsed all of the media.  They have said they were investigating it, which is fair ball.  One problem is many people, including sometimes the police, conflate the two terms.

Politicians say all sorts of stuff all the time.  If erroneous information goes out, best that it not come from the folks who are in possession of the actual evidence and responsible for presenting it to the court in an untainted manner.

Was their political pressure?  I highly doubt it; charges were laid the next day I believe, and no homicide investigator that I know would willing carry a case into court they didn't think they could win, and accomplished major crime investigators protect their evidence like their child, and the investigation is not truly complete until the gavel comes down (knowing that we don't use gavels in Canada).

Will public pronouncements and the notoriety impact on the trial?  If it goes to jury, it will impact jury selection, but this is nothing new.  It's all become part of the evolving 'open criminal justice system'.


----------



## QV

brihard said:


> I know the admins have a room to hash this stuff out. I also know we have a ‘Muslim’ edition of this thread too; I think a couple of the past few pages can probably be moved or split.
> 
> Aaaanyway, lots of interesting discussion. I guess from my perspective I’d be interested to know if we’re concerned about writing history or writing Ops plans.
> 
> On the occasions where my employer feels it necessary to yank me from behind my desk to throw me out on the road and pretending I’m a real cop again, there are a few things I worry a bit more or a bit less about.
> 
> If the ‘far left’ is out in numbers, (which in our context is generally gonna be what could loosely be described as people who identify with antifa, black bloc, etc, I’ll worry that some windows are gonna get smashed and I might be getting some piss bottles thrown at me.
> 
> If my fear is a vehicle trying to become one with a crowd, or an active shooter, trends in radical violence suggest the greatest likelihood will be someone of a radicalized Islamist bent (Islamist versus merely being Muslim), or potentially a far right radical (this iverlaps, or someone of the ‘incel’ persuasion who is displeased with women not being attracted to his casual misogyny. These last few categories will likely have some overlap, probably an angry, young, single man who feels he is not where he should be romantically, socially, or economically.
> 
> In terms of formed plots with more than one perpetrator, with some sort of violent and ideological intent including loss of human life, odds are very good that you’re looking at either some hard right anti-government types, or radical islamists... the latter can overlap with the lone actors. Daesh’s ideology is still a threat.
> 
> The things that have actually happened in Canada recently lean heavily hard right / incel/anti Muslim. Minassian wanted to slaughter women. Bossi eye wanted to slaughter Muslims. Burden intended harm to the Prime Minister. Patrick Matthews, though he did his stupidity on the other side of the border, is hard right. Parliament Hill and Quebec were both radical islamist ideology, though also mentally ill lone Wolf actors. Similarly, the guy who went rogue in a U haul in Edmonton after stabbing a cop.
> 
> Canada does not have one universally applicable definition of ‘terrorism’. The Criminal Code defines it quite specifically, and to get those charges tight elements must be hit. A case may be factually, politically, and academically terrorism, but the evidence to achieve a viable prosecution either may not exist, may not be accessible (e.g., encrypted communications) or may not be admissible in court (e.g., national security intelligence). It’s a hell of a lot easier to write a search warrant for straight murder than for terrorism. In these cases, such mundane charges as ‘uttering threats’ and ‘murder’ may need to suffice, judicially. They may not suffice politically, but the latter system can only go so far in pushing the former. In this latest case, we’ll see if police have what they need.


The "sovereign citizens" would be a good example


----------



## brihard

QV said:


> The "sovereign citizens" would be a good example


They’re nearly all complete idiots - you have to be to believe that nonsense - but that combination of malignant stupidity, hatred of government, and genuine, ideological belief that the rules don’t apply to them is a dangerous combination for us.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Most are idiots who want to scam the system for free, however I have met a few up in the Yukon, who were polite, but made it clear they had no interest in taking part in society or depending upon it. They went to so effort to physically distance themselves from society to to avoid encounter as much as possible, those people I can respect as they do it at a cost to themselves.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Most are idiots who want to scam the system for free, however I have met a few up in the Yukon, who were polite, but made it clear they had no interest in taking part in society or depending upon it. They went to so effort to physically distance themselves from society to to avoid encounter as much as possible, those people I can respect as they do it at a cost to themselves.


Like any group, though, it's the 1% of idiots who cause some to paint EVERYONE in the group with the same brush, including those who just want to carry on carrying on.


----------



## Pelorus

I would say there's a distinct difference between wanting to exist away from society/survivalist types and the things that "Sovereign Citizens" are notorious for, which hold all sorts of nutty ideas (mostly encouraged from what I can tell by a small group of charlatans who sell books or other materials giving advice on one's special rights as an S.C.).

Probably the best official summary of the movement is contained in an Albertan court decision, as it was relevant to I believe a family court case which required the judge to do his research:



			https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html
		




> 3. Sovereign Men or Sovereign Citizens
> 
> 
> 
> [176] The Sovereign Man / Sovereign Citizen movement is the chief U.S. OPCA community. Several reported Ontario decisions document court interactions with self-identified Sovereign Men. This court has had a limited exposure to Sovereign Men, most notably being a lawsuit advanced by Glenn Winningham [“Winningham”] (usually self-styled as “Glenn Winningham: House of Fearn”): *Winningham v. Canada *(30 November 2010) Lethbridge 1006 00907 (Alta. Q.B.), leave to appeal denied (Alta. C.A.).
> 
> 
> [177] I was a defendant in this action, along with Canada, Alberta, many police officers, the Prime Minister, government ministers, the Lieutenant and Governor Generals, and Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench Chief Justice Wittmann. The action alleged broad conspiracy and misconduct by Canadian state actors. A chief complaint by Winningham, who is a self-declared member of the “Republic of Texas”, is that Canada Customs had refused to admit him into Canada with his firearms. This was followed by a number of confrontations with Lethbridge area peace officers, particularly at traffic stops.
> 
> 
> [178] Winningham’s documents claim he is not subject to Canadian law on ‘everything is a contract’ and ‘courts apply admiralty law’ bases. He also claimed ‘governments’ are only corporations. The allegations and rhetoric in his court submissions express a perspective that is alarming:
> 
> 
> 1 have tried to use administrative procedure against these criminals, but they don’t get the message, so this is the message. If they want to perjure their oaths of office and engage in TREASON and SEDITION, and BREACH OF TRUST, and other crimes to numerous to list, against Me, that they BETTER be prepared to go *ALL THE WAY*, and *MURDER* Me as well, because by the time I am done with them, *(I will do it all within the law)*, they will wish they had MURDERED Me. It is My patriotic duty to come after them to My last dying breath, and I will file commercial liens against them, I will liquidate their bonds, I will file criminal complaints against them and their bosses, I will seize their assets, and I will not rest until I see them do that little dance they do at the end of a common law rope, and even then, in the next life, I will be DEMANDING Justice before the judgment BAR of God, to make sure they get to spend the rest of eternity receiving their just reward. Also, after I am dead and gone on to the next life, because this is on the record, these criminals will be hunted down, just like the NAZI war criminals that are still hunted down this day.
> 
> 
> 
> Furthermore, these criminals are hereby put on NOTICE that with criminals like them in this world, I have a DEATH wish, because this world is NOT big enough for both of us, so go ahead and make MY day, the sooner I am out of here the better, and I shall exercise My God given RIGHT to resist their unlawful arrest with lethal fource, if necessary, and then they will have an excuse to *MURDER* Me, so go ahead criminals, *MAKE MY DAY!*
> 
> 
> 
> [179] My part in the conspiracy was to “... shove ... foreign martial law jurisdiction down the throats of all of the people ...” as an excuse to “... bring out [my] martial law shock troops and really "kick some ass!"” This would alienate the populace from the Queen and trigger a _coup d’etat_.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The family in London killed in the truck attack was laid to rest yesterday.









						CTV National News: Final goodbye for London family
					

Thousands gather in London, Ont. to say a final farewell to the family killed in an alleged hate-motivated attack. Omar Sachedina reports.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Fishbone Jones

brihard said:


> They’re nearly all complete idiots - you have to be to believe that nonsense - but that combination of malignant stupidity, hatred of government, and genuine, ideological belief that the rules don’t apply to them is a dangerous combination for us.


Soveriegn citizens or government?


----------



## brihard

Fishbone Jones said:


> Soveriegn citizens or government?


SovCits.

News stories notwithstanding, government is so horrendously rule bound that getting anything done at all in anything close to an expedient manner is a minor miracle.


----------



## brihard

A terrorism charge has been laid.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-court-truck-attack-nathaniel-veltman-muslims-four-dead-1.6064720


----------



## Remius

brihard said:


> A terrorism charge has been laid.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/london-court-truck-attack-nathaniel-veltman-muslims-four-dead-1.6064720


Two charges apparently.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the police service's info machine ....


> The London Police Service and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET) are sharing new information following the homicide of four members of one family, and the attempted homicide of a fifth member of the same family.
> 
> On June 6, 2021, a lone male (later identified as Nathaniel Veltman, 20) driving a black pickup truck, allegedly drove into the five victims at the intersection of Hyde Park Road and South Carriage Road in London, Ontario.
> 
> On June 7, 2021, Veltman was charged by the London Police Service with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder.
> 
> The London Police Service worked in conjunction with RCMP INSET, the Ministry of the Attorney General (MAG) and the Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC), determining that the murders constitute terrorist activity.  As a result, the Federal and Provincial Attorneys General provided their consent to commence terrorism proceedings, alleging that the murders and the attempted murder also constitute terrorist activity.
> 
> Today, Nathaniel Veltman appeared at the London Courthouse, 80 Dundas Street, to answer to the following charges:
> 
> First-Degree murder, contrary to s.235 of the _Criminal Code_ (4 counts) which, in addition to being planned and deliberate murders pursuant to s.231(2) of the _Criminal Code_, also constitute terrorism offences pursuant to sections 2, 83.01(1)(b) and 231 (6.01) of the _Criminal Code; _and
> Attempt to commit murder, contrary to section 239(1) of the _Criminal Code_ (1 count) which, in addition to being an attempted murder, also constitutes a terrorism offence pursuant to sections 2, 83.01(1)(b) and 83.27 of the _Criminal Code._
> The London Police Service and RCMP INSET wish to re-assure the public that there is no further known or suspected threat to the public associated to the accused at this time. The investigation is ongoing and will continue to be a collaborative effort between the London Police Service and RCMP INSET ...


Text also attached in case the link doesn't work for you.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> ...
> 
> Public Safety Minister Bill Blair announced Friday that the Three Percenters and Aryan Strikeforce will join the list alongside the Proud Boys, who were added in February after the storming of Capitol Hill in Washington on Jan. 6.
> 
> A 69-year-old white supremacist named James Mason, who senior intelligence officials describe as a lifelong neo-Nazi whose writings laid an ideological foundation for multiple terrorist groups, has also been placed on the proscriptive list.
> 
> ...











						Two more extreme right-wing groups join Proud Boys on Canada's terror list
					

The Trudeau government has added two more right-wing extremist groups and an American neo-Nazi to its list of terrorist entities as it tries to counter the rise of white nationalist violence.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Canada adds 3 groups including Three Percenters, to terrorist list - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Canadian officials cited the Jan. 6 riot and said members of the Three Percenters had been linked to a 2020 plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan.




					globalnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/terrorist-list-three-percenters-1.6079984
		










						Canada puts U.S. Three Percenters militia on terror list, cites risk of violent extremism
					

Canada officially named the U.S. right-wing militia group Three Percenters a terrorist entity on Friday, saying it posed a "significant threat" to Canadian domestic security.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another flavour of "sovereign citizen" recently in the news ...

*"What we know so far about the ‘Rise of the Moors’ members arrested on I-95"* (boston.com, 6 Jul 2021)
*"Group in armed standoff with police say they're the 'aboriginal people' of America"* (FOX News, 3 Jul 2021)
_*"A refusal to acknowledge US laws, belief in UFOs and selling fake passports to pay for their abandoned house HQ: The inside story of the 'Rise of the Moors' militia who hit the headlines after stand-off with Massachusetts cops"*_ (UK Daily Mail, 5 Jul 2021)
*"Sovereign citizens now consist of all colors and creeds" *(Kansas City Star, 29 Aug *2015*)
*"Moorish Movement"* (Anti-Defamation League, undated)
*"Moorish Sovereign Citizens"* (Southern Poverty Law Centre, undated)


----------



## OldSolduer

Pardon my ignorance but weren’t the original Moors followers of Islam ??


----------



## dimsum

OldSolduer said:


> Pardon my ignorance but weren’t the original Moors followers of Islam ??


Wiki:

The term *Moor* is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim inhabitants of the Maghreb, the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages. The Moors initially were the indigenous Maghrebine Berbers.[1] The name was later also applied to Arabs and Arabized Iberians.[2]

Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people.[3] The 1911 _Encyclopædia Britannica_ observed that the term had "no real ethnological value."[4] Europeans of the Middle Ages and the early modern period variously applied the name to Arabs, North African Berbers, as well as Muslim Europeans.[5]


----------



## Kilted

I got in an argument over Facebook with a freeman-on-the-land/sovereign citizen who said that an article of the Magna Carta that had been repealed in 1225 said that he didn't have to wear a mask in stores.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Pig-wrestling, the sport of kings...never pass up an opportunity.


----------



## Remius

Kilted said:


> I got in an argument over Facebook with a freeman-on-the-land/sovereign citizen who said that an article of the Magna Carta that had been repealed in 1225 said that he didn't have to wear a mask in stores.


Lol.  Awesome.


----------



## Haggis

Freemen/Sov Cits are a most dangerous and unpredictable brand of domestic terrorist.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Longish piece about one U.S. antifa-ite by Reuters (also attached in case link doesn't work, for the purpose of research, private study and education IAW the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act_.).  Pretty up front about "see a fascist, punch him/her".


> In Donald Trump’s presidency, the Antifa movement achieved a mythical status, portrayed by the former president and his supporters as terrorists. One Antifa activist’s journey, from college honors student to on-the-ground combatant, offers rare insight into this far-left movement and its motivations ...


----------



## Brad Sallows

If only the people being assaulted were fascists.


----------



## OldSolduer

Haggis said:


> Freemen/Sov Cits are a most dangerous and unpredictable brand of domestic terrorist.


I think we might have one in custody here. He's a real piece of work.


----------



## RangerRay

OldSolduer said:


> I think we might have one in custody here. He's a real piece of work.


I take it that his stay at the crowbar hotel hasn’t disabused him of being suckered into that ideology?


----------



## Weinie

RangerRay said:


> I take it that his stay at the crowbar hotel hasn’t disabused him of being suckered into that ideology?


Nor will it. It will likely give him some sense of credibility for his tirade against "The Man." 

There is a simple solution to these folks and their ilk, unfortunately we abandoned it decades ago.


----------



## Remius

Weinie said:


> Nor will it. It will likely give him some sense of credibility for his tirade against "The Man."
> 
> There is a simple solution to these folks and their ilk, unfortunately we abandoned it decades ago.


edit. Wrong thread


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from GWB @ a 9/11 commemorative event today ....


> "On the 20th anniversary of the deadliest attack on U.S. soil, George W. Bush, who was president at the time, warned of a new danger coming from within the country.
> 
> “We have seen growing evidence that the dangers to our country can come, not only across borders, but from violence that gathers within,” Bush said on Saturday at the 9/11 memorial site in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, during a ceremony to mark the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
> 
> “There is little cultural overlaps between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home ... they are children of the same foul spirit, and it is our continuing duty to confront them.”
> 
> (...)
> 
> Bush, recalling the unity of the American people after the (9/11) attacks, appealed for a return to that spirit amid growing political division in the country.
> 
> “When it comes to unity of America, those days seem distant from our own,” the Republican former president said. “Malign force seems at work in our common life ... so much of our politics has become a naked appeal to anger, fear and resentment.” ...


Text of full speech (from CNN) also attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the FBI on the Minnesota mosque bombing of 2017 ...


> Emily Claire Hari, 50, f/k/a Michael Hari, was sentenced to 53 years in prison for the August 5, 2017, bombing of the Dar al-Farooq (DAF) Islamic Center in Bloomington, Minnesota.
> 
> On December 9, 2020, following a five-week trial, Hari was convicted by a federal jury on all five counts of the indictment, including intentionally defacing, damaging, and destroying religious property because of the religious character of that property; intentionally obstructing, and attempting to obstruct, by force and the threat of force, the free exercise of religious beliefs; conspiracy to commit federal felonies by means of fire and explosives; carrying and using a destructive device during and in relation to crimes of violence; and possession of an unregistered destructive device.
> 
> In handing down the sentence, United States District Judge Donovan W. Frank described the attack orchestrated by Hari as a highly sophisticated and premeditated act of domestic terrorism ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Bread Guy said:


> And the jury decides ....
> _*"Dylann Roof sentenced to death for church slayings"*_


The latest on this ...


> A federal appellate court has refused to have its full panel of judges hear the appeal of his death sentence for the murder of nine people at a Charleston, S.C., in 2015.
> 
> The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied the en banc review in a one-page order Friday.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Roof petitioned the court earlier this month after a three-judge panel voted unanimously in August*** to affirm the sentence for the 2017 conviction on federal hate crime charges. The court said he killed the Black congregants with the "express intent of terrorizing, not just his immediate victims at the historically important Mother Emanuel Church, but as many similar people as would hear of the mass murder."
> 
> He sought to have the full court of 15 judges rehear the case in what's known as an en banc session. Roof's lawyers said their client's death sentence violated Supreme Court precedent because prosecutors emphasized the goodness of the nine victims ...


** *- link to Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals August decision (PDF)


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> The latest on this ...
> 
> ** *- link to Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals August decision (PDF)


Good. Tall trees and short ropes do have their uses.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Far-right uses cryptocurrency to easily get funding:









						Far-right cryptocurrency follows ideology across borders
					

BRUSSELS (AP) — The Daily Stormer website advocates for the purity of the white race, posts hate-filled, conspiratorial screeds against Blacks, Jews and women and has helped inspire at least three racially motivated murders.




					apnews.com


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> Good. Tall trees and short ropes do have their uses.


And a short prayer.


----------



## OceanBonfire

DND says they'll review how they vet people they train which is most likely no improvement like everywhere else:









						National Defence to investigate extremism in Canadian-trained foreign troops - National | Globalnews.ca
					

National Defence will review how the Canadian Armed Forces checks for extremist views in its trained foreign troops after a report ID'd an incident involving the Ukrainian army.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Far-right extremists in Ukrainian military bragged about Canadian training, report says
					

A report exploring the far-right in Ukraine’s military found that neo-Nazis and supporters of far-right groups in the ranks bragged online about receiving training from Canada and other NATO nations.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## brihard

Prosecutors in the US are seeking a 'terrorism enhancement' and a 25 year sentence for convicted CAF reservist, and violent white supremacist Patrik Matthews.









						Manitoba reservist didn’t ‘intend to promote terrorism’: defence lawyers  | Globalnews.ca
					

Defence lawyers for a former Canadian Armed Forces reservist from Manitoba say he should be sentenced to 33 months and argue he never intended to promote terrorism in the US.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

Meanwhile, the US have far-right Q-Anon politicians slowly creeping up without barriers:









						Frenchman tied to far-right abduction charged with terrorism
					

A former politician who called for the overthrow of the French government has been charged with terrorism in connection with what authorities have said was an extreme-right plot to attack vaccination centers, a masonic lodge and other targets.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				












						Frenchman tied to far-right abduction charged with terrorism
					

PARIS (AP) — A former politician who called for the overthrow of the French government has been charged with terrorism in connection with what authorities have said was an extreme-right plot to attack vaccination centers, a masonic lodge and other targets.




					apnews.com


----------



## brihard

Patrik Mathews just got sentenced to nine years prison in the US, plus three years supervised release.

Hope he enjoys prison.


----------



## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> Patrik Mathews just got sentenced to nine years prison in the US, plus three years supervised release.
> 
> Hope he enjoys prison.


Good catch - this from the Associated Press ....


> A neo-Nazi group member was sentenced on Thursday to nine years in prison in a case that highlighted a broader federal crackdown on far-right extremists.
> 
> FBI agents arrested former Canadian Armed Forces reservist Patrik Jordan Mathews and two other members of a group called The Base four days before a pro-gun rally in Virginia in January 2020. Surveillance equipment installed in their Delaware apartment captured Mathews and fellow Base member Brian Mark Lemley Jr. discussing an attack at the rally at Virginia’s Capitol in Richmond.
> 
> The judge who sentenced Mathews to prison concluded that he and Lemley intended to engage in terrorist activity. U.S. District Judge Theodore Chuang’s decision to apply a “terrorism enhancement” to their sentences significantly increased their recommended prison terms under federal guidelines.
> 
> Chuang said recorded conversations between Mathews and Lemley captured the “virulence” and “passion” in their willingness to kill people and bring down the U.S. government ...


Nothing at the FBI or U.S. DOJ sites yet.


----------



## mariomike

The Bread Guy said:


> The latest on this ...
> 
> ** *- link to Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals August decision (PDF)


Update today on the financial settlement.

Justice Department announces $88 million settlement in 2015 Charleston church shooting​








						Justice Department announces $88 million settlement in 2015 Charleston church shooting
					

A botched FBI background check enabled Dylann Roof to buy the gun he used to kill nine people and injure three.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

Busted ...


> A New Jersey man was sentenced today to one year and one day in prison for his role in conspiring with members of a white supremacist hate group to threaten and intimidate African-Americans and Jewish Americans by vandalizing minority-owned properties throughout the country in September 2019.
> 
> Richard Tobin, 20, of Brooklawn, New Jersey, previously pleaded guilty before U.S. District Judge Robert B. Kugler to an information charging him with conspiracy against rights. Judge Kugler imposed the sentence today in Camden federal court.
> 
> “The defendant conspired with a white supremacist hate group to vandalize and destroy property owned by Jewish and Black Americans, intending to instill fear into those communities across the country,” said Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clarke for the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division. “This sentence makes clear that targeting persons owning and using property simply based on their race or religion will not be tolerated. The Department of Justice will continue to prosecute civil rights conspiracies and vindicate the rights of victims of bias motivated crimes.”
> 
> “Richard Tobin encouraged hateful acts of violence against individuals and their houses of worship, based on their religion or the color of their skin,” said Acting U.S. Attorney Rachael A. Honig of the District of New Jersey. “Justice demanded that he be held accountable for these racist and anti-Semitic actions, and we are proud to have joined with our colleagues in the Civil Rights Division and the Joint Terrorism Task Force in doing so in this case. Our commitment to protecting the civil rights of all in New Jersey is steadfast.” ...


----------



## OceanBonfire

Well, it embolden them:



> In the minutes after a jury acquitted 18-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse on all counts, jubilation lit up on social media spaces where far-right extremists gather.











						For far-right groups, Rittenhouse's acquittal is a cause for celebration
					

One expert fears that the acquittal of Kyle Rittenhouse will embolden people to seek out altercations where it could be possible to make claims of self-defense.




					www.npr.org


----------



## brihard

OceanBonfire said:


> Well, it embolden them:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For far-right groups, Rittenhouse's acquittal is a cause for celebration
> 
> 
> One expert fears that the acquittal of Kyle Rittenhouse will embolden people to seek out altercations where it could be possible to make claims of self-defense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org


Yup.

The verdict itself is a straightforward and narrow one of self defense, the ugly larger context aside.

Unfortunately, Rittenhouse became a cause célèbre among a lot of _really _shitty human beings, and the abject celebration of this verdict goes well beyond the legal consequence of it. Him posing for photos with a group of Proud Boys in a bar certainly doesn’t help that. He’s this week’s bug lamp for the far right.

That’s mostly not his fault. It’s just an ugly reality that must be accepted and contended with.

There will be other ramifications. Expect to see more of the far left arming themselves at protests and demonstrations. I’ve seen a lot of potentially credible rhetoric to that effect. There will be more dangerous flashpoints coming.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Ziminski and Grosskreutz already brought pistols to their fight.  No-one else knows what the latter really meant to do when he made that final lunge and dropped his pistol arm down from "raised hands".


----------



## FJAG

brihard said:


> Him posing for photos with a group of Proud Boys in a bar certainly doesn’t help that.


Not only posing but grinning from ear-to-ear and flashing a white power hand sign several times.

I guess POTUS was right all along.

😉


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Unfortunately, Rittenhouse became a cause célèbre among a lot of _really _shitty human beings, and the abject celebration of this verdict goes well beyond the legal consequence of it.



I wonder how police officers feel about armed civilians showing up to "help" ?



> In the minutes after a jury acquitted 18-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse on all counts, jubilation lit up on social media spaces where far-right extremists gather.



Sounds like the social media equivalent of winning the Super Bowl.


----------



## kkwd

FJAG said:


> Not only posing but grinning from ear-to-ear and flashing a white power hand sign several times.
> 
> I guess POTUS was right all along.
> 
> 😉


It is not always as it seems.
White Power Symbol?


----------



## FJAG

Sometimes it is


----------



## kkwd

FJAG said:


> Sometimes it is


This symbol hoax courtesy of 4chan sure has taken on a life of it's own.
Okay Hand Gesture
How the “OK” Symbol Became a Popular Trolling Gesture


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:


> It is not always as it seems.
> White Power Symbol?


Some people seem obsessed with AOC.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Simpler theory is that extremists took advantage of Rittenhouse.


----------



## kkwd

mariomike said:


> Some people seem obsessed with AOC.


It was the first image in the article. Sometimes things are not as they seem.


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:


> Some people seem obsessed with AOC.


What's your criteria for being obsessed with something?


----------



## mariomike

kkwd said:


>



Like The Head said.


----------



## TheHead

I'd say posting anime clips of elected officials killing AOC or Marjorie-Taylor-Greene the Q-Anon Karens constant twitter outbursts and harassment border on obsession.


----------



## kkwd

TheHead said:


> I'd say posting anime clips of elected officials killing AOC or Marjorie-Taylor-Greene the Q-Anon Karens constant twitter outbursts and harassment border on obsession.


Well I just drew a breath of relief, that excludes me then. I take no responsibility for someone else's actions.


----------



## brihard

Tentatively posting this here. Vehicle ramming attack through a Christmas parade in Waukesha, Wisconsin (not far up the highway from Kenosha).

Lots of video. Red Ford Escape entered the parade at speed from the rear, struck numerous adults and kids and drove through at least one marching band and at least one girls’ dance troupe. At least 23 victims, at least one fatality and probably more. Police shot at it as it exited the parade route. Dispatch scanner audio called it a black male driver. No word yet on motive. Vehicle and a “person of interest” are in custody. This one is awful.









						Driver plows into Waukesha Christmas Parade crowd, leaving five dead, more than 40 injured
					

Five people were reported dead and more than 40 injured after an SUV plowed through a holiday parade in a Milwaukee suburb.



					amp.jsonline.com


----------



## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> Tentatively posting this here. Vehicle ramming attack through a Christmas parade in Waukesha, Wisconsin (not far up the highway from Kenosha).
> 
> Lots of video. Red Ford Escape entered the parade at speed from the rear, struck numerous adults and kids and drove through at least one marching band and at least one girls’ dance troupe. At least 23 victims, at least one fatality and probably more. Police shot at it as it exited the parade route. Dispatch scanner audio called it a black male driver. No word yet on motive. Vehicle and a “person of interest” are in custody. This one is awful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver plows into Waukesha Christmas Parade crowd, leaving five dead, more than 40 injured
> 
> 
> Five people were reported dead and more than 40 injured after an SUV plowed through a holiday parade in a Milwaukee suburb.
> 
> 
> 
> amp.jsonline.com


Jezus H Christ - that is freakin awful.


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> Jezus H Christ - that is freakin awful.


Details this morning seem to indicate the perpetrator may have been fleeing a different crime scene.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

brihard said:


> Tentatively posting this here. Vehicle ramming attack through a Christmas parade in Waukesha, Wisconsin (not far up the highway from Kenosha).
> 
> Lots of video. Red Ford Escape entered the parade at speed from the rear, struck numerous adults and kids and drove through at least one marching band and at least one girls’ dance troupe. At least 23 victims, at least one fatality and probably more. Police shot at it as it exited the parade route. Dispatch scanner audio called it a black male driver. No word yet on motive. Vehicle and a “person of interest” are in custody. This one is awful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Driver plows into Waukesha Christmas Parade crowd, leaving five dead, more than 40 injured
> 
> 
> Five people were reported dead and more than 40 injured after an SUV plowed through a holiday parade in a Milwaukee suburb.
> 
> 
> 
> amp.jsonline.com



That is horrific, but at this point what are the indications that this had anything to do with extremism or some ideological motivation, versus being a mentally disturbed individual, or something other unrelated to political/religious ideology?

The mayor called it a "horrible and senseless act." suggesting there is no known motive at this time.


----------



## Remius

LittleBlackDevil said:


> That is horrific, but at this point what are the indications that this had anything to do with extremism or some ideological motivation, versus being a mentally disturbed individual, or something other unrelated to political/religious ideology?
> 
> The mayor called it a "horrible and senseless act." suggesting there is no known motive at this time.


None.  All indications are that the perpetrator may have been fleeing another crime scene.  This may just be collateral to that. Details are still vague.


----------



## brihard

LittleBlackDevil said:


> That is horrific, but at this point what are the indications that this had anything to do with extremism or some ideological motivation, versus being a mentally disturbed individual, or something other unrelated to political/religious ideology?
> 
> The mayor called it a "horrible and senseless act." suggesting there is no known motive at this time.


I posted it here, as I said “tentatively”, because of the nature of the event, and the video I watched in which he very definitely intentionally drove into a large group of people, hit the gas, and kept pushing through, and then did it again when he reached the dance troupe. It is, of course, entirely possible that this is something else, that there isn’t an ideological or political motivation to this mass murder. Should the evidence lead in that direction, this post and replies can easily be split from the thread. Given the initial info I made the decision with, I stand by it.


----------



## Kilted

kkwd said:


> This symbol hoax courtesy of 4chan sure has taken on a life of it's own.
> Okay Hand Gesture
> How the “OK” Symbol Became a Popular Trolling Gesture


It's kind of disappointing how many random symbols and sometimes people are used as symbols by the far right.  If it wasn't for cancel culture, it might not be as big a deal.  Fortunately, some things such as the Detriot Red Wings and Taylor Swift have survived being used as a white supremacist symbol, but I'll never underestimate cancel culture.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

brihard said:


> I posted it here, as I said “tentatively”, because of the nature of the event, and the video I watched in which he very definitely intentionally drove into a large group of people, hit the gas, and kept pushing through, and then did it again when he reached the dance troupe. It is, of course, entirely possible that this is something else, that there isn’t an ideological or political motivation to this mass murder. Should the evidence lead in that direction, this post and replies can easily be split from the thread. Given the initial info I made the decision with, I stand by it.



Early indications seem to be that he was fleeing a crime according to the Globe and Mail: Waukesha parade crash driver may have been fleeing a crime


----------



## brihard

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Early indications seem to be that he was fleeing a crime according to the Globe and Mail: Waukesha parade crash driver may have been fleeing a crime


Horrible as that is, I hope you’re right and that this turns out not to have an ideological aspect to it, for fear of the further inflammatory impact of that if in fact it did. Believe me, I’d be very happy to see this event moved out of this thread. Sadly, vehicle vs crowd in the past several years has usually had a terrorism angle to it, hence my first inclination on this.


----------



## The Bread Guy

In court later today according to the DA ....


> The Waukesha County District Attorney’s Office expresses its sincere condolences to the crime victims and everyone affected by the events at the Waukesha Christmas Parade on November 21, 2021. This tragedy has affected our entire community. We would like to acknowledge the work of the men and women in law enforcement who have done a tremendous job to save lives and protect our community. Further, thank you to all the other First Responders, medical personnel and citizens who rendered aid.
> 
> Law enforcement is continuing its investigation into this matter. We are working closely with the City of Waukesha Police Department to review the matter and decide what criminal charges will be issued. Initial charges are expected to be filed tomorrow (23 Nov) during a court appearance at 4 p.m. (Central Time) at the Waukesha County Courthouse, room 215. Additional charges will be considered at a later time, as the investigation unfolds and the full extent of injuries is known. The court appearance is expected to be live-streamed.
> Please find details at Waukesha County - Circuit Courts
> 
> (...)
> 
> Please be mindful that at this stage, any charges that may be issued are allegations and that anyone charged with a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty.


More on the accused via Reuters here, Associated Press here, FOX News here & CNN here - some tidbits from the AP account (with the usual "initial reports caveats" applying as always):


> ... *One pending case against Darrell Brooks Jr. included an allegation that he deliberately hit a woman with his car in early November after a fight*. Prosecutors in Milwaukee County on Monday called their bail recommendation “inappropriately low” given the facts of that case and the Sunday crash, and said they would review it ...





> ... Thompson, the police chief, said that *there was no evidence the bloodshed Sunday was a terrorist attack or that Brooks knew anyone in the parade*. Brooks acted alone, the chief said. Brooks had left the site of the domestic disturbance before officers arrived, and was not being chased by police at the time of the crash, according to the chief, who gave no further details on the dispute ...


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

brihard said:


> Horrible as that is, I hope you’re right and that this turns out not to have an ideological aspect to it, for fear of the further inflammatory impact of that if in fact it did. Believe me, I’d be very happy to see this event moved out of this thread. Sadly, vehicle vs crowd in the past several years has usually had a terrorism angle to it, hence my first inclination on this.



Well, it may have an extremism link after all, but probably not the kind of non-Muslim extremism you had in mind ...









						Accused killer Waukesha parade driver posted toxic anti-white rhetoric
					

Darrell Brooks Jr., 39, let his vitriol rip in the wake of the murder of George Floyd




					torontosun.com


----------



## brihard

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Well, it may have an extremism link after all, but probably not the kind of non-Muslim extremism you had in mind ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accused killer Waukesha parade driver posted toxic anti-white rhetoric
> 
> 
> Darrell Brooks Jr., 39, let his vitriol rip in the wake of the murder of George Floyd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


I didn’t have anything in particular in mind. Like I said, the nature of the event pointed to terrorism as a more-likely-than-not factor. The very initial description of the suspect (which proved accurate) had me leaning towards less likely Islamist, more likely something other than that. None of it more than supposition; just a place to post the story.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It can be both.  He could have been fleeing, and decided to go all-in and fulfill some political desires.


----------



## OceanBonfire

In the US Armed Forces:



> ... The Army reported 33 allegations of “racially motivated violent extremism,” while the Navy had 30, the Marine Corps had seven and the Air Force reported none.
> 
> In the anti-government/anti-authority category, there were 34 Army reports, 14 Navy reports, 25 Marine Corps reports — despite Marines making up about 10% of the total force ― and none from the Air Force.
> 
> The Air Force reported 102 allegations of “domestic violence extremism participation,” which is not clearly defined.
> 
> The Air Force was also the only service to report “trespassing at the U.S. Capitol,” of which they had 10 allegations.
> 
> Anti-government extremism was much more common in the Marine Corps.
> 
> ...











						Army reports the most racist extremism cases, Marines the most anti-government
					

The services fielded hundreds of reports of extremism in the first nine months of this year.




					www.militarytimes.com
				












						How extremist groups target veterans, and what can be done about it
					

Extremist groups might offer some familiar rhetoric to veterans.




					www.militarytimes.com
				












						‘We just feel it’: Racism plagues US military academies
					

Some students of color have spotlighted what they see as systemic racism and discrimination at the academies by creating Instagram accounts to relate their personal experiences.




					www.militarytimes.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Well, it may have an extremism link after all, but probably not the kind of non-Muslim extremism you had in mind ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Accused killer Waukesha parade driver posted toxic anti-white rhetoric
> 
> 
> Darrell Brooks Jr., 39, let his vitriol rip in the wake of the murder of George Floyd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


Still non-Muslim, so still qualifies as #OneOfTheOtherRadicalizations if it pans out in the bought-and-paid-for media.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> While the “responsibility for addressing this threat cannot fall uniquely” on the Forces’ counter-intelligence unit, NSIRA said, the agency reported concern the unit “may not be fully utilized to proactively identify white supremacist across” the Department of National Defence.











						White supremacists in Canada’s military pose ‘active counter-intelligence threat’: watchdog - National | Globalnews.ca
					

National security watchdog found the Canadian Armed Forces was not prepared to 'proactively identify' threat of white supremacists in the ranks.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## OceanBonfire

New research indicates that far-right extremists and white supremacists are gaining new followers and influence by co-opting conspiracy theories about COVID-19:









						Far-right using COVID-19 theories to grow reach, study shows
					

PARIS (AP) — The mugshot-style photos are posted on online message boards in black and white and look a little like old-fashioned “wanted” posters. “The Jews own COVID just like all of Hollywood,” the accompanying text says.




					apnews.com


----------



## brihard

OceanBonfire said:


> New research indicates that far-right extremists and white supremacists are gaining new followers and influence by co-opting conspiracy theories about COVID-19:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Far-right using COVID-19 theories to grow reach, study shows
> 
> 
> PARIS (AP) — The mugshot-style photos are posted on online message boards in black and white and look a little like old-fashioned “wanted” posters. “The Jews own COVID just like all of Hollywood,” the accompanying text says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


That’s kind of a ‘no shit’ for anyone who’s paid any critical mind to Facebook, Twitter or other large social media over the past year…


----------



## OceanBonfire

Pentagon to issue rules aimed at curbing rise in extremism among troops. The new guidelines come nearly a year after some current and former service members took part in the U.S. Capitol riot:









						Pentagon issues rules aimed at stopping rise of extremism
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Warning that extremism in the ranks is increasing, Pentagon officials issued detailed new rules Monday prohibiting service members from actively engaging in extremist activities. The new guidelines come nearly a year after some current and former service members participated in...




					apnews.com


----------



## OldSolduer

OceanBonfire said:


> Pentagon to issue rules aimed at curbing rise in extremism among troops. The new guidelines come nearly a year after some current and former service members took part in the U.S. Capitol riot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pentagon issues rules aimed at stopping rise of extremism
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON (AP) — Warning that extremism in the ranks is increasing, Pentagon officials issued detailed new rules Monday prohibiting service members from actively engaging in extremist activities. The new guidelines come nearly a year after some current and former service members participated in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apnews.com


First thing is ban Fox News - the more extreme right wingers.


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> First thing is ban Fox News - the more extreme right wingers.


Just ban the comment section.


----------



## OldSolduer

Remius said:


> Just ban the comment section.


Good point. We have friends that watch Fox News - and they are rabid pro Trump despite being Canadian. And refuse to take the vaccine.


----------



## dimsum

OldSolduer said:


> First thing is ban Fox News - the more extreme right wingers.


Years ago I was on a US ship on a tour.  I noticed that all of the TVs in the mess, etc were showing Fox news.  

Years later, I was in the Naval Exchange (USN version of the PX) and guess what, the TVs were also showing Fox news.


----------



## Remius

OldSolduer said:


> Good point. We have friends that watch Fox News - and they are rabid pro Trump despite being Canadian. And refuse to take the vaccine.


Sounds like my brother in law.


----------



## OceanBonfire

OldSolduer said:


> First thing is ban Fox News - the more extreme right wingers.





Remius said:


> Just ban the comment section.



With this new policy, a simple Like or retweet of an extremist content gets an investigation right away:









						Likes, shares and posts now prohibited in Pentagon’s new anti-extremism policy
					

The Pentagon's extremism working group released its report on Monday.




					www.militarytimes.com


----------



## OceanBonfire

An FBI informant infiltrated the KKK in Florida, helped foil 2 murder plots, and said white supremacist groups infiltrated law enforcement at the state, county, and city levels.



> "It is more prevalent and consequential than any of them are willing to admit."











						He wore a wire, risked his life to expose who was in the KKK
					

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) — For nearly 10 years, Joseph Moore lived a secret double life. At times the U.S. Army veteran donned a white robe and hood as a hit man for the Ku Klux Klan in North Florida.




					apnews.com


----------



## Journeyman

OldSolduer said:


> First thing is ban Fox News - the more extreme right wingers.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Generals Warn Of Divided Military And Possible Civil War In Next U.S. Coup Attempt​


> Mary Papenfuss
> December 18, 2021, 6:28 am
> 
> 
> Three retired U.S. generals warned in a chilling column Friday that another coup attempt in America in 2024 could divide the military and plunge an unprepared nation into civil war.





> “With the country still as divided as ever, we must take steps to prepare for the worst,” wrote former Army Major Gen. Paul Eaton, former Brigadier Gen. Steven Anderson and former Army Major Gen. Antonio Taguba.
> As the nation nears the first anniversary of the Capitol riot, the generals are “increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military, which would put all Americans at severe risk,” they wrote in The Washington Post.



More at link:  Generals Warn Of Divided Military And Possible Civil War In Next U.S. Coup Attempt


----------



## OldSolduer

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Generals Warn Of Divided Military And Possible Civil War In Next U.S. Coup Attempt​
> 
> 
> 
> More at link:  Generals Warn Of Divided Military And Possible Civil War In Next U.S. Coup Attempt


This does not bode well.


----------



## Brad Sallows

What is it about that stuff that prompts some people to take it seriously?


----------



## dimsum

Brad Sallows said:


> What is it about that stuff that prompts some people to take it seriously?


Take what seriously?  The potential of US Civil War II?

Maybe the hyper-politicization of everything in the US - everything is through the lens of "Dems this, so GOP that"?  Even something seemingly bipartisan as vaccines (Covid or otherwise) is politicized.

Also, maybe that Americans in general love to have a "team".  In Canada, an alumni of X University rarely, if ever, wears school merch - maybe while at the school for Homecoming or whatever, but otherwise no.  Think of how many school bumper stickers you normally see aside from the university areas.  In the US, university merch (clothing, bumper stickers, etc) is common - they're showing off that 10, 20, 30 years ago, they went to Cal State or wherever.  Even more so with sports teams.

The last election has shown that there _is_ a divide in the US, and some people with guns think they've been cheated (rightly or wrongly).  Other civil wars have started from similar causes.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Read the op-ed.  It is a bunch of "what if this really unlikely bad thing, along with a lot of other really bad things, were to happen"?

If it were a screed posted at Infowars written by three unrecognizable names retired from the CIA/FBI, alleging that after a close loss to the Republican candidate the Democrats would again roll out a series of allegations designed to cripple the incoming administration with endless investigations, citing all the things done by Democrats after the 2016 election, would you accept it?

Have the US armed services, which have been pretty active the past couple of decades, failed so completely at teaching basic LoAC and RoE stuff, and is their chain of command so wobbly, that a series of civics and LoAC refreshers are needed because of some sky-is-falling tinfoil-hat predictions?

Are the misfits who quit after one term of enlistment, or the Mountain Man Militia types who also do a minimum term so they can spend the rest of their lives walting commando because they once caught a sniff of exhaust from a 160th SOAR bird, in a position to cause entire formations to declare rebel allegiances?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Journeyman said:


> View attachment 67783


Yes lets celebrate censorship......


----------



## RangerRay

Colin Parkinson said:


> Yes lets celebrate censorship......


There was a time I liked Fox. It was nice to hear news from a different, more conservative, editorial slant. Something different from the centre-left pablum other outlets offered. 

However, when they traffic in propaganda, fake news and white nationalism that leads to the radicalization of millions of people, it leads to scary things.


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> Yes lets celebrate censorship......


That would probably be a short and boring debate. Journeyman’s done a fair bit of stuff, but I’m not sure he brings much to the table on extremism and radicalization…


----------



## Journeyman

Brad Sallows said:


> What is it about that stuff that prompts some people to take it seriously?


Gen. Mike Hayden, former head of the NSA and the CIA, seems to take it seriously.  Some people's opinions tend to carry more weight than others.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If only people with weighty opinions had any sort of useful track record predicting future crises.  Appeal to authority is useful for physics and plumbing, but not for politics.


----------



## Jarnhamar

There are elements on both sides of the US government that would benefit from Civil War 2 hysteria. 

Things like Twitter don't help either. From Trumps garbage to this recentl trash by Bette Midler.
Bette Midler apologizes to West Virginia residents for 'poor, illiterate, strung out' tweet

You can accuse loser white supremacist groups of wanting a civil war and you wouldn't be wrong but I'm willing to bet celebrities (and others) want one too just as bad.  To justify their beliefs that "the other side" are sub human.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Very few want a civil war, but many like to talk about one.  Angry and frustrated people often talk a lot of nonsense about what they'd like to see happen.  I doubt the people who thought "WMD in Iraq", or "Russian collusion", or "Biden's laptop could be Russian disinformation" were among things that "sounded about right" are to be relied upon.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:


> Very few want a civil war, but many like to talk about one ...


One side, "civil war," the other, "revolution."


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:


> Things like Twitter don't help either. From Trumps garbage to this recentl trash by Bette Midler.
> Bette Midler apologizes to West Virginia residents for 'poor, illiterate, strung out' tweet


Twitter is just that - twitter. Its garbage.

ALL politicians from local council on up should have their Twitter accounts deactivated. It's no way to run a country.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:


> Very few want a civil war, but many like to talk about one.  Angry and frustrated people often talk a lot of nonsense about what they'd like to see happen.  I doubt the people who thought "WMD in Iraq", or "Russian collusion", or "Biden's laptop could be Russian disinformation" were among things that "sounded about right" are to be relied upon.


Agreed on the want.  But I think it’s a matter of feeling as well.  How many on either side actually believe or think that a civil war could or would happen soon or in their lifetime? 

Given the division that exists in US politics and even in the cultural makeup of the US, one can see why many would think that it could happen.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:


> Given the division that exists in US politics and even in the cultural makeup of the US, one can see why many would think that it could happen.



I bet a lot of people would like the entertainment of a civil war on their 85" TV's from the comfort of their gated communities. Real life hunger games. 

And can you imagine the traffic twitter would get? Not hard to imagine why they may be a little slow to clamp down on inflammatory comments and posts.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

Psychologists/sociologists must have a name for the way in which people will believe oddball stuff on not very much evidence, but I don't know what it is.  I assume it has something to do with reinforcing political/social prior beliefs.  Not sure how else people can flip from being sober skeptics of claims of widespread orchestrated election fraud to being gullible fools about worries of imminent civil war with US armed services taking sides during the legal wrangling after a close presidential election three years from now.

There is going to be more in this vein.  Follow the politics.  BBB is dead.  Midterms in less than 11 months.  A lesser BBB and/or a bill to limit states' options for election controls ("voting rights") have been cited as two leading objectives for next year.  To support the latter, expect the "democracy in danger" propaganda theme to resume in the media.  (It already has.)


----------



## Remius

The perceived threat of another civil war stared the moment the last one ended. “The South shall rise again!” slogan has morphed into whatever suits the moment.  But the sentiment has always remained in the back of the US cultural psyche.  

Jan 6th certainly helped cement the possibility on both sides.  Sometimes a small thing can make things seem bigger than they really are and some think it can accelerate the process.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Don't forget swag.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brad Sallows said:


> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
> 
> Psychologists/sociologists must have a name for the way in which people will believe oddball stuff on not very much evidence, but I don't know what it is.  I assume it has something to do with reinforcing political/social prior beliefs.  Not sure how else people can flip from being sober skeptics of claims of widespread orchestrated election fraud to being gullible fools about worries of imminent civil war with US armed services taking sides during the legal wrangling after a close presidential election three years from now.
> 
> There is going to be more in this vein.  Follow the politics.  BBB is dead.  Midterms in less than 11 months.  A lesser BBB and/or a bill to limit states' options for election controls ("voting rights") have been cited as two leading objectives for next year.  To support the latter, expect the "democracy in danger" propaganda theme to resume in the media.  (It already has.)


It astounds me that seemingly normal intelligent humanoids will believe the most outlandish things on social media with absolutely no proof, but a "wet paint" sign requires empirical evidence as to it's veracity


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> One side, "civil war," the other, "revolution."


Let’s not forget civil wars aren’t civil and are often bloodier than nation vs nation wars.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Don't forget swag.
> 
> 
> View attachment 67801


And don't forget stickers and morale patches, either ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

OldSolduer said:


> Let’s not forget civil wars aren’t civil and are often bloodier than nation vs nation wars.


... and revolutions can be more revolting than some advocating for it think, too.


----------



## dimsum

The Bread Guy said:


> ... and revolutions can be more revolting than some advocating for it think, too.


Because people wanting them think they'll win.


----------



## kkwd




----------



## The Bread Guy

dimsum said:


> Because people wanting them think they'll win.


On all sides - and that includes the civil-war-ites.


----------



## OldSolduer

dimsum said:


> Because people wanting them think they'll win.


Those that desire civil war don't realize how bloody they can be. Rwanda, FRY, the US Civil War - and I'm sure there are others - were horribly bloody. Its not neat and tidy - it pits families against their kin, neighbour against neighbour.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> Starting this month, the office will work with the military departments, as well as the defense under secretary for personnel and readiness, to study whether current recruit screening mirrors what’s written down in policy.











						Inspector general investigating whether services are screening recruits for extremism
					

The Pentagon inspector general's audit follows new Pentagon recruiting guidelines on extremism.




					www.militarytimes.com


----------



## The Bread Guy

From U.S. DOJ:  Another one in the U.S. getting jail time ...


> Cameron Shea, 25, a leader of the neo-Nazi group Atomwaffen Division, was sentenced today in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Washington to three years in prison for federal conspiracy and hate crime charges for threatening journalists and advocates who worked to expose anti-Semitism, announced Acting U.S. Attorney Tessa M. Gorman. At the sentencing hearing, U.S. District Judge John C. Coughenour said, “This conduct cannot be tolerated. This kind of conduct has consequences…It is so serious that it requires a serious sentence.” ...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> At Tuesday's hearing, Jill Sanborn, the head of the FBI's National Security Branch, told lawmakers that the threat posed by domestic violent extremists is "persistent and evolving." The "most lethal threat" from domestic violent extremists, she said, is posed by white supremacists and anti-government militias.
> 
> "Racially or ethnically motivated violent extremists are most likely to conduct mass casualty attacks against civilians, and militia violent extremists typically target law enforcement and government personnel and facilities," she said.











						The Justice Department will create domestic terrorism unit to counter rising threats
					

The announcement was made Tuesday by Matthew Olsen, the head of the department's National Security Division, and comes as the nation faces a constellation of extremist threats on the home front.




					www.npr.org


----------



## dimsum

Leaked Oath Keepers list names 20 current military members
					

USA TODAY confirmed with all five branches of the U.S. military that 81 people signed up for the Oath Keepers while in uniform. The names are from a hacked list that a watchdog group shared with journalists last fall.




					www.stripes.com


----------



## Kat Stevens

So, just so I've got this right, an infinitesimally small percentage of people in uniform across all branches of the military signed up for the Loony Toons fan club, and this is headline news? Shock! Gasp! Horror!  Wasn't there a snowstorm or something going on somewhere they could report on?


----------



## Remius

Kat Stevens said:


> So, just so I've got this right, an infinitesimally small percentage of people in uniform across all branches of the military signed up for the Loony Toons fan club, and this is headline news? Shock! Gasp! Horror!  Wasn't there a snowstorm or something going on somewhere they could report on?


I don’t think that sort of thing should be minimized. 

Active service members in fringe or terrorist organisations is going to make news.  A section’s worth of trained soldiers properly equipped could make one hell of a mess.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:


> I don’t think that sort of thing should be minimized.
> 
> Active service members in fringe or terrorist organisations is going to make news.  A section’s worth of trained soldiers properly equipped could make one hell of a mess.


Active service members are recruited from the populace, not germinated in conformity farms. If it's out there, it's in the military, and apparently in miniscule numbers.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Kat Stevens said:


> Active service members are recruited from the populace, not germinated in conformity farms. If it's out there, it's in the military, *and apparently in miniscule numbers*.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Blackadder1916 said:


>


Deeeep...


----------



## Brad Sallows

By all means let's take counsel of the irrational fears of a few to stir up a tempest of anxiety.


----------



## dimsum

Leaked Chats Reveal Evidence of Hate Crimes by U.S. Fascists
					

Patriot Front members confessed to destroying numerous works of art in private messages.




					gizmodo.com


----------



## OceanBonfire

RCMP seize firearms in B.C. following probe into video by self-described militia  | Globalnews.ca
					

The charges stem from an investigation that began on Sept. 14 'as a result of several videos posted to social media, in the interest of public safety,' the RCMP said.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Man who attended Ottawa protest convoy arrested on firearms charges  | Globalnews.ca
					

The investigation began Jan. 10 after a video was posted on social media showing a man pointing a gun at another man's head.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy

Odd bedfellows????


> Russian neofascist groups have attempted to recruit and provide paramilitary training to North American and European extremists in order to “expand their reach into the West, increase membership, and raise money,” according to the unclassified July 2021 intelligence report.
> 
> The support of Western neofascists by Russian extremists “poses a potential threat to Western security by encouraging and enabling attacks on ethnic minorities and government facilities,” states the report, which is titled “Russian Federation Support of Racially and Ethnically Motivated Violent Extremists.”
> 
> But the report, which was prepared by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence with input from the CIA and the FBI, also says the U.S. government lacks “indications of direct Russian government support” for foreign white nationalist groups ...


ODNI report attached


----------



## Brad Sallows

And sometimes, "let's you and him fight" is backed by governments once you get past all the cut-outs.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> “The people who organized -that protest, and there were several factions there, there’s no doubt (they) came to overthrow the government,” Thomas said.
> 
> “Whether their ability to do that was there, whether their intent, an understanding of how to do that was realistic is actually irrelevant to what they wanted to do.”
> 
> ...
> 
> A strong mistrust — if not outright anger — toward mainstream media was evident among the protesters that occupied downtown for weeks, along with widespread anti-government sentiment. Conspiracy theories, including one about the World Economic Forum think tank “infiltrating” governments around the world, were referenced by some protest organizers.
> 
> “If you live in this echo chamber you believe this is true, you believe that the government is restricting your freedom in a way that probably is not quite valid or accurate,” Thomas said.
> 
> Global News’ Rachel Gilmore reported this week that some users on the online platforms used to organize the convoy protests and push their message — predominantly encrypted messaging app Telegram — have moved on to push Russian propaganda about the ongoing invasion of Ukraine.











						Domestic extremism ‘here to stay’ in Canada, Trudeau’s security advisor says - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Jody Thomas, Trudeau’s national security advisor, said the 'Freedom Convoy' meant to overthrow the federal government and warranted emergency measures.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Kirkhill

Domestic extremism ‘here to stay’ in Canada, Trudeau’s security advisor says - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Jody Thomas, Trudeau’s national security advisor, said the 'Freedom Convoy' meant to overthrow the federal government and warranted emergency measures.




					globalnews.ca
				







> Canadians have lived in a “splendid, naïve sort of superiority” that domestic extremism is not an issue in the country, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s national security advisor says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only is that “simply not true,” Jody Thomas told an Ottawa security conference Thursday, the issue is also “here, and it is here to stay.”



It has always been here.



> “We have a lot to unpack in this country in terms of understanding what’s going on and its impact on democracy, our institutions and our society,” Thomas said during a panel of the Ottawa Conference on Security and Defence.
> 
> “This is a problem that is not going away,” Thomas said, and it will require “significant” effort to “try and understand and resolve.”



Agreed.  Good plan.


> Thomas, who moved from the Department of National Defence to the National Security and Intelligence Advisor role in January, was responding to questions about the government’s use of emergency powers to address the convoy protests that paralyzed Ottawa and blockaded border crossings in February.
> 
> Even if international border crossings — and the billions in cross-border trade that depends on them — were not blocked, Thomas said she believed the Ottawa protest was significant enough to warrant the use of the Emergencies Act.



I will choose to disagree.  One might say "dissent".



> While styled as a protest against mandatory vaccinations for cross-border truckers, protest organizers’ overriding goal — stated publicly — was to force democratically elected governments to remove all COVID-19 public health measures or be replaced.



If not that issue then another issue.



> “The people who organized -that protest, and there were several factions there, there’s no doubt (they) came to overthrow the government,” Thomas said.
> 
> “Whether their ability to do that was there, whether their intent, an understanding of how to do that was realistic is actually irrelevant to what they wanted to do.”



Remove the government

By election
By appeal to the Courts
By petition of the Crown
By publicity campaign
By civil disobedience

By recall legislation?

A lot of routes available to "overthrow the government".  And they are all perfectly legitimate.

Our system is predicated on the ability of the people to "overthrow the government".  
The people are always right, even when they are wrong.

Armed Insurrection?  In Canada?  Why bother?  



> Online ‘echo chambers’ fueling extremism​Thomas suggested that online “echo chambers”  (dissenting churches) — where people can find whatever information source that suits their existing or desired worldview — (have historically) partially fueled the events (like those) in Ottawa last month.
> 
> A strong mistrust — if not outright anger — toward mainstream media  (establishment pulpits) was evident among the protesters that occupied downtown for weeks, along with widespread anti-government sentiment. Conspiracy theories, including one about the World Economic Forum think tank  (naming the church of your choice)  “infiltrating” governments around the world, were referenced by some protest organizers.
> 
> “If you live in this echo chamber (your church) you believe this is true, you believe that the government  (other) is restricting your freedom in a way that probably is not quite valid or accurate   (to your taste),” Thomas said.
> ....



We've been here before.

We got here because of it.

That is both the good news and the bad news.

We're still here and I believe we will still be here tomorrow.


----------



## OceanBonfire

> “Ideologically” motivated violent extremism (IMVE) — the service’s catch-all term, which includes far-right and white supremacist-motivated violence — is “fast approaching parity with the threat from religiously-motivated violent extremism in terms of investigative resources deployed” in Canada, CSIS Director David Vigneault wrote in late 2021.
> 
> ...
> 
> Despite the renewed attention to right-wing extremism — in the past CSIS devoted resources to tracking far-right groups before the 9/11 attacks dramatically shifted Western intelligence priorities — Vigneault warned Mendicino the agency’s ability to keep up with the “evolving” threat is at risk.
> 
> ...
> 
> Barbara Perry, one of Canada’s foremost researchers on far-right and white supremacist movements, questioned whether CSIS truly needs new powers to track domestic extremism — something an increasingly large group of open source researchers have had little trouble doing in recent years without the resources of a modern intelligence service.
> 
> ...
> 
> Carvin agreed with Perry’s broader point, but argued the nature of the threat from modern far-right extremism, and their methods of organization, are different than the kind of extremism that previously preoccupied the service.
> 
> ...











						Threats Within: Canada’s spy service boosts attention to ‘ideological’ domestic extremism - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In 2016, CSIS shut down its investigation into right-wing extremism. In 2022, they spent almost as much watching domestic extremists as religiously-motivated terror.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## OldSolduer

Are we worrying about the far left?.....

Or are they already here.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They already control .....and don't want to lose any of that.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Today's radical is tomorrow's elder activist/academic/lobbyist/influencer.


----------



## FJAG

Brad Sallows said:


> Today's radical is tomorrow's elder activist/academic/lobbyist/influencer.


Nah. The Baader-Meinhoff gang are still criminals.

Its a matter of degree.

🍻


----------



## dimsum

Brad Sallows said:


> Today's radical is tomorrow's elder activist/academic/lobbyist/influencer.


MLK Jr. was considered a radical back then...


----------



## OceanBonfire

> ... the Windsor case was the first time prosecutors had charged an alleged right wing extremist with participating in terrorist group activity.
> 
> “That is a big deal for a few reasons. Perhaps most importantly, our criminal terrorism offences were intended first and foremost to be preventive, that is to capture activity before a serious attack occurs,” said Nesbitt, a University of Calgary law professor.
> 
> “This is what was intended by our legislation, yet for whatever reason, we had not seen the preemption of far-right activity with terrorism charges until now,” he said.
> 
> “This is an indication that the RCMP is indeed putting resources towards the investigation of far-right actors and that they believe, along with Canadian prosecutors, that Canadian terrorism laws are equally capable of capturing activities of the far right that they believe rises to the level of terrorism”











						RCMP lay terrorism charge against Ontario man over alleged links to Atomwaffen neo-Nazi group  | Globalnews.ca
					

Seth Bertrand faces a charge of participating in the activity of a terrorist group.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Extremism, hateful rhetoric becoming ‘normalized’ in Canada, spy agency head warns - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Canadian Security Intelligence Service director David Vigneault said the spread of disinformation, misinformation, propaganda and hate continues to increase and accelerate.




					globalnews.ca


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## brihard

OceanBonfire said:


> RCMP lay terrorism charge against Ontario man over alleged links to Atomwaffen neo-Nazi group  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Seth Bertrand faces a charge of participating in the activity of a terrorist group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Extremism, hateful rhetoric becoming ‘normalized’ in Canada, spy agency head warns - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Canadian Security Intelligence Service director David Vigneault said the spread of disinformation, misinformation, propaganda and hate continues to increase and accelerate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


According to reporting on this, it sounds like he literally filled out an application form on their website. He applied to join a listen terrorist entity. That’s magnificent.


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## OldSolduer

brihard said:


> According to reporting on this, it sounds like he literally filled out an application form on their website. He applied to join a listen terrorist entity. That’s magnificent.


You failed to mention the obvious - not a very smart boy is he?


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## The Bread Guy

The Bread Guy said:


> Odd bedfellows????
> 
> ODNI report attached


A bit of a variation on the "Team USSR 2.0 links to the extreme right  elsewhere" theme.  Not so much terrorist _activity_, but an interesting potential channel for #TheOtherRadicalization ...








						Why White Nationalists Identify With A Russian Church — And Vladimir Putin : Consider This from NPR
					

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is gaining followers in the U.S. — not Russian immigrants, but American converts drawn to its emphasis on "traditional values." NPR's Odette Yousef reports some new converts are using the religion to spread white nationalist views. More from her...




					www.npr.org
				











						Orthodox Christian churches are drawing in far-right American converts
					

When Sarah Riccardi-Swartz moved from New York City to a small Appalachian town in West Virginia in the fall of 2017, she was searching for an answer to a puzzling question. Why had a group of conservative American Christians converted to Russian Orthodoxy?




					www.wgbh.org
				











						The American far-right and the Orthodox Church | eKathimerini.com
					

Dr. Sarah Riccardi-Swartz and Dr. Aram Sariksian join Thanos Davelis to look at why far-right Americans are joining Orthodox churches in the US, and explore what the broader implications are not only for these churches and communities, but also for US democracy.




					www.ekathimerini.com


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## The Bread Guy

Just to show how some see the categories, here's how New Jersey's DHS "pigeonholes" types of domestic terrorism ...

... versus the "usual  suspect rogue's gallery" variety




I'm guessing Antifa'll end up in the "Anarchist Extremists" pigeonhole, but we'll see what happens.


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## brihard

The Bread Guy said:


> Just to show how some see the categories, here's how New Jersey's DHS "pigeonholes" types of domestic terrorism ...
> View attachment 70743
> ... versus the "usual  suspect rogue's gallery" variety
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Antifa'll end up in the "Anarchist Extremists" pigeonhole, but we'll see what happens.


I don’t think ‘Antifa’ (which as always is more an ideological label than any coherent organization) should be pidgeonholed as ‘anarchist’. There’s overlap, but ‘antifa’ types are not necessarily anti-government as a whole, which anarchists by definition must be. Rather they tend to be against conservative governments, or other essentially mainstream neoliberal parties.


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## The Bread Guy

brihard said:


> I don’t think ‘Antifa’ (which as always is more an ideological label *than any coherent organization*) should be pidgeonholed as ‘anarchist’. There’s overlap, but ‘antifa’ types are not necessarily anti-government as a whole, which anarchists by definition must be. Rather they tend to be against conservative governments, or other essentially mainstream neoliberal parties.


I was leaning in that direction mostly because of the bit in yellow.


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## The Bread Guy

From 2021, but still interesting on the use of literature to help radicalize -- this from Central Florida's Intelligence exchange, via publicintelligence.net


> This bulletin was created by the Central Florida Intelligence Exchange (CFIX) to provide situational awareness regarding the use of literary propaganda used to drive black racially and ethnically motivated extremist (BRMVE) narratives in present-day America ... The CFIX recognizes that Americans have constitutionally protect ed rights to assemble, speak, and petition the government . The CFIX safeguards these first amendment rights, and reports on only those activities where the potential use of rhetoric and/or propaganda could be used to incite individuals to carry out violent or criminal acts ... Literary propaganda utilized for ideological references by subscribers of racially motivated black extremism continues to be a driving motivator seen on social media platforms live-st reams. As a result, BRMVEs have turned to literary authors from years past and present-day America to use writings as a blueprint for today’s ideological responses to the nation’s plight as seen through network television lenses ...


More at link or in attached PDF version (5 pages)


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## OceanBonfire

EXPLAINER: White 'replacement theory' fuels racist attacks
					

NEW YORK (AP) — A racist ideology seeping from the internet's fringes into the mainstream is being investigated as a motivating factor in the supermarket shooting  that killed 10 people in Buffalo, New York.




					apnews.com
				












						What is the 'great replacement' and how is it tied to the Buffalo shooting suspect?
					

The suspect allegedly wrote a 180-page document filled with hateful rants about race and ties to the conspiracy theory, "great replacement."




					www.npr.org
				












						How is the 'Great Replacement' theory tied to the Buffalo shooting suspect?
					

Included in a document published online outlining ideology behind Saturday's mass shooting at a Buffalo supermarket, is a conspiracy known as the "Great Replacement." What is replacement theory?




					www.npr.org
				












						How the 'replacement' theory went mainstream on the political right
					

The theory began in white supremacist circles and has slowly integrated into the mainstream of Republican politics.




					www.npr.org


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## Journeyman




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## kkwd

Link


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## brihard

kkwd said:


> Link


Certainly not just youth- but yes. Ready access to self-reinforcing echo chambers is not doing public discourse any favours.


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## OceanBonfire

Senate GOP blocks domestic terrorism bill, gun policy debate
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democrats’ first attempt at responding to the back-to-back mass shootings in Buffalo, New York,  and Uvalde, Texas,  failed in the Senate as Republicans blocked a domestic terrorism bill that would have opened debate on difficult questions surrounding hate crimes and gun safety.




					apnews.com
				












						U.S. Senate Republicans block bill to battle white supremacy
					

U.S. Senate Republicans on Thursday blocked debate on a bill that represented the first effort by Congress to address mass shootings since a white supremacist's killing of 10 Black people in New York and a gunman's massacre of 19 pupils and two teachers in Texas.




					www.reuters.com


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## Brad Sallows

Posting links to news agency articles about contentious US domestic political issues is close to worthless.

Republicans blocked the Democrats' "domestic terrorism bill" and Democrats blocked the Republicans' "school safety bill".  It helps to understand the politics, and also to look into what the bills actually propose (ie. the inevitably present "poison pill" long-term agenda points) instead of what the headlines describe.


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## GK .Dundas

Unfortunately just about every Bill these days continue to have  these poison poll riders. 
The reason the You can't kick puppies Bill failed to pass was because of the rider authorizing live babies as pistol targets Bill was tacked on.


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## The Bread Guy

GK .Dundas said:


> Unfortunately just about every Bill these days continue to have  these poison poll riders.
> The reason the You can't kick puppies Bill failed to pass was because of the rider authorizing live babies as pistol targets Bill was tacked on.


Like Canada's omnibus bills ...


Brad Sallows said:


> Posting links to news agency articles about contentious US domestic political issues is close to worthless.
> 
> Republicans blocked the Democrats' "domestic terrorism bill" and Democrats blocked the Republicans' "school safety bill".  It helps to understand the politics, and also to look into what the bills actually propose (ie. the inevitably present "poison pill" long-term agenda points) instead of what the headlines describe.


... bang on - gotta spot the "what was it they were voting AGAINST?" bit.  Again, like omnibus bills here.


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## OceanBonfire

Buffalo supermarket gunman indicted on terror, hate charge
					

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — The white man accused of killing 10 Black people in a racist attack on a Buffalo supermarket was indicted by a grand jury Wednesday on a state domestic terrorism and hate crime charge that would carry a mandatory sentence of life in prison.




					apnews.com
				












						Buffalo shooting suspect is indicted on a domestic terrorism charge
					

The suspect is charged with domestic terrorism motivated by hate and 10 counts of first-degree murder.




					www.npr.org


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## OceanBonfire

Quebec RCMP searching properties allegedly connected to neo-Nazi terrorist group  | Globalnews.ca
					

The police say on Twitter that the investigation targets individuals with suspected ties to the Atomwaffen Division, which is listed by the federal government as a terror group.




					globalnews.ca
				












						Quebec Mounties raid two rural locations in hunt for neo-Nazi terrorist group
					

Quebec RCMP announced Thursday they had raided two locations in rural Quebec, saying they expected to find members of the neo-Nazi group Division Atomwaffen. The Canadian government has classified it as a terrorist organization.




					montreal.ctvnews.ca


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## The Bread Guy

Key findings from new think tank report:  Canada can do better on designating far-right terrorist groups ....


> As of July 2022, Canada has listed nine entities in Canada as terrorists, all of which can be broadly categorized as belonging to the violent far-right movement.
> Canada’s listings process has three levels of effect in Canada: operational effects (and largely financial); support effects (such as enabling investigations and analysis); and signaling effects that inform the Canadian public about shifts in terrorism threats.
> Canada’s process also has potential unintended consequences, such as the possibility of individuals being “de-risked” by their bank and to serve as a catalyst for action for a radicalized individual suddenly cut off from the financial system.
> Canada’s listings were unilateral, although some countries have subsequently listed, designated or proscribed similar groups.
> 
> In Canada, as elsewhere, there is little concrete evidence of the effectiveness and outcomes of listing terrorist entities or information suggesting that these listings are useful for law enforcement.


Recommendations


> Canada should work with partner countries to coordinate the designation or listing of entities. While unilateral listings have some desired outcomes (such as signaling) that will be of interest to policy makers, they should work with partner countries to coordinate proscription for reater impact. This will help prevent groups, movements, individuals, and entities from engaging in jurisdictional arbitrage, essentially taking advantage of states with weaker or non-existent proscriptions.
> Canada should share information on Canadian listed entities with partner states, and in particular the United States, to facilitate the designation process.  Canada should be open to supporting the United States, should it choose to designate foreign branches of US-domiciled terrorist entities, such as the “Canadian Proud Boys” or the “Canadian Three Percenters”.
> Canada should increase transparency around how it chooses groups for listing, how it prioritizes them within its listing process, and share more information in the public designation. These improvements would help reduce the appearance of politicization of these decisions and enhance the signaling effects of the listings regime.
> All states should establish metrics to assess the implementation and impact of sanctions or designations and encourage international sanctions regimes to also establish these metrics.
> When financial entities in Canada continue to provide financial services to listed terrorist entities, or websites providing services to terrorist entities, Canadian law enforcement should liaise with the companies in question, consider terrorist financing criminal charges, and if or when those services are disrupted by these initiatives, issue a public statement to encourage greater adoption and compliance with the law.


Paper also attached if link above doesn't work.


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## Kat Stevens

The Bread Guy said:


> Key findings from new think tank report:  Canada can do better on designating far-right terrorist groups ....
> 
> Recommendations
> 
> Paper also attached if link above doesn't work.


So "can do better" translates to "widen the net and make the holes much smaller"?  How are we doing identifying left wing extremist groups? Nothing to improve on there, I'd warrant.


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