# Why does the Government/DND not have insurance?



## ACS_Tech (22 May 2006)

Is there someone that can explain why DND/the Canadian government does not carry insurance on its' buildings, vehicles, machinery, etc.?  Is it simply a matter of high liability or is it a legal matter?  I mean, it would seem crazy that an organization of this size would not carry insurance, regardless of the cost, unless there were some other factors involved.


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## Daidalous (22 May 2006)

We insure ourselves. (Meaning we have money set aside).  No insurance company would  offer coverage to any military.  Can you imagine how much it would cost to insure a multi milllion dollar Herc.  For, Theft, and a $300 dub ductable.  wait.......   

Some one shoots down a Herc in combat and we pay $300 for a new one. >


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## GAP (22 May 2006)

Like most municipalities, provinces, cities etc. it is cheaper to self insure


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## George Wallace (22 May 2006)

It is insured.  It is insured by the Crown.


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## DBA (22 May 2006)

Insurance at it's basic form spreads risk around so for example 100 policy holders pay 1.5% of a total write off in premiums instead of one non-policy holder paying 100%. Soon as you have so many assets that your paying over 100% to insure them all due to insurance company overhead and profits it's no longer cost effective. Your better off to self insure for those items and only insure against large liabilities or rare occurrences. For a government or company with a huge payroll even more things are more cost effective self insured.


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## reccecrewman (26 May 2006)

What kind of insurance company would insure a vehicle that's sole purpose is to go into a warzone? Insurance companies are in the business of MAKING money, not throwing it away.  Just like being in the Forces is a sure fire way to get rejected by virtually all insurance companies for personal life insurance.  If you do have personal life insurance, you better damn well go over your policy to make sure that you are actually covered if you get killed in an operational theatre because the insurance company won't hesitate to say that your policy was null and void if you died overseas leaving your family with nothing.  God bless SISIP.


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## pronto (26 May 2006)

Here's a chuckle - the Government (and by extension the Military) don't insure assets because we supposedly life-cycle manage better and our insurance needs for capital is less than industry because we are such a smaller risk (every time I read that one, I laugh my arse off - they really think that). 

But really? We just vote a replacement for ourselves!

Mainframe was under a water pipe which burst? Hey - Just buy a new one!
Don't have the money? Emergency grab from the ol' revolving fund! 
Don't have a revolving fund? Grab from the G&C programme!
Don't have a grant or contribution programme? Just get the Deputy to go to the board for a wee uplift on your vote!

Anyway you look at it - it comes out of our pockets, but those're the facts. George is right - the Crown insures the Crown.


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## couchcommander (26 May 2006)

pronto said:
			
		

> Mainframe was under a water pipe which burst? Hey - Just buy a new one!



Is this an example from experience (not asking maliciously, just wondering if there was another person in government who needs yet another whack on the head)?


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## William Webb Ellis (26 May 2006)

I have done some work for a federal agency on insurance related matters.  The instructions were "Tell them We are the Federal government.  Do they really want to start a fight?"


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## Britney Spears (26 May 2006)

> Just like being in the Forces is a sure fire way to get rejected by virtually all insurance companies for personal life insurance.



Let me just clarify here. Most life insurance policies will not pay out if the insured is killed in an act of war. Whether one is in the CF or not has no bearing on the matter. Same thing with property insurance.


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## couchcommander (26 May 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Let me just clarify here. Most life insurance policies will not pay out if the insured is killed in an act of war. Whether one is in the CF or not has no bearing on the matter. Same thing with property insurance.



With them unilateraly deciding what is or isn't an act of war....


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## Trinity (26 May 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Let me just clarify here. Most life insurance policies will not pay out if the insured is killed in an act of war.



I would like to disagree with that.

I consulted my life insurance manager (my father, 35 years CLU and other designations and in the business; now recently retired).

Many companies will pay out if the insured is killed in an act of war.  However, it will
not be considered accidental.

Now, depends obviously on which company, there may be one or two that throw in an act of
war clause.  For property and vehicles, there is an act of war clause and good luck getting your
money back.


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## FormerHorseGuard (27 May 2006)

life insurance all depends on your policy if concerned ask your policy provider for what  you are covered for in writing and get it dated and mailed to you. that  way  you know for sure what  you are covered for and not covered for.

as for auto and other types of insurance nothing owned by the government is covered by an insurance company.  how to do insurance a 1 of a kind building such as the Prime Ministers house, the parliment buildings , let alone a something that is deisgned to go into a war zone and not come back.  
I can just see the insurance adjuster going out to some cross road when LAV III was blown in place because it was cheaper then towing it back or easier. asking the driver, so where was the IED or rocket guy, how much damage did they cause? how much damage did your own guys cause when they blew it up?  any witnesses to your damage? 

You lost a C130 to icy runway at alert, what did you do to make sure it was not icy?
 insurance companies would make a killing off the army because they  would claim it was all not covered due to driver fault.

just my thoughts


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## pronto (27 May 2006)

Couch Commander:
Sadly. amusingly. Yes. It is a real example.


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## DBA (27 May 2006)

You can get insurance for high priced and risky assets. It's not sold retail style like most consumer insurance because each policy is usually more tailored to the specific asset. More risk just means higher prices and usually spread across more underwriters. Deciding wether or not to get it still comes down to a cost vs benefit analysis. 

For a small company losing their main computer system could ruin them and insuring it brings stability. For a large company with 200 such systems it makes no sense to pay 2% of the value of each system in insurance premiums if only 0 or 1 get destroyed by floods or fires each year. They can replace the destroyed equipment using the money they saved by not paying insurance premiums and still have money left over.


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## couchcommander (27 May 2006)

DBA said:
			
		

> You can get insurance for high priced and risky assets. It's not sold retail style like most consumer insurance because each policy is usually more tailored to the specific asset. More risk just means higher prices and usually spread across more underwriters. Deciding wether or not to get it still comes down to a cost vs benefit analysis.
> 
> For a small company losing their main computer system could ruin them and insuring it brings stability. For a large company with 200 such systems it makes no sense to pay 2% of the value of each system in insurance premiums if only 0 or 1 get destroyed by floods or fires each year. They can replace the destroyed equipment using the money they saved by not paying insurance premiums and still have money left over.



Mainframes and IT systems deemed "mission critical" can get very, VERY expensive very quickly - insuring them, and their backups at hot sites, is in the best interest of all but the biggest entities.


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## CallOfDuty (25 Feb 2011)

Sorry to bump and old post, but since we aren't inusred, what happens if someone is seriously injured in a DND vehicle and is looking to make claims for travel expenses, incidentals, etc?
  How would one go about figuring out how to make claims?
Thanks
Steve-O-


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## dapaterson (25 Feb 2011)

Steve-O- said:
			
		

> Sorry to bump and old post, but since we aren't inusred, what happens if someone is seriously injured in a DND vehicle and is looking to make claims for travel expenses, incidentals, etc?
> How would one go about figuring out how to make claims?
> Thanks
> Steve-O-


CF member, public servant, or member of the public?

Different rules all around.


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## kratz (25 Feb 2011)

Steve-O-,

I'm at home, so I do not have access but I know there is a CFAO for claims against the Crown if the injury is to a civilian.  If the injury is to a member, they are covered 24/7 or while so employed (if a class A reservist). The military coverage is through a CF 98.


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## Pusser (25 Feb 2011)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Let me just clarify here. Most life insurance policies will not pay out if the insured is killed in an act of war. Whether one is in the CF or not has no bearing on the matter. Same thing with property insurance.



However, SISIP has no war clause, so it doesn't matter where you die, SISIP pays.  In fact, SISIP even pays for self-destruction (suicide), provided you've had the policy for two years.  SISIP also has a living benefit where you can receive partial payment before you die if you've been diagnosed with a terminal condition.  In short, SISIP is one fo the best deals going - and I'm not paid to say that.


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## CallOfDuty (25 Feb 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys. ......I'm reg force, and was injured on duty.


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## Navalsnpr (25 Feb 2011)

Steve-O- said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies guys. ......I'm reg force, and was injured on duty.



I hope that a CF-98 was submitted.


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## aesop081 (25 Feb 2011)

Steve-O- said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies guys. ......I'm reg force, and was injured on duty.



The care for your injuries is done through the military medical system and all claims relate to off-base medical appointments ( transport, meals...etc..) are handled just like regular travel claims and done through the orderly room at your base's CDU.


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## CallOfDuty (25 Feb 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The care for your injuries is done through the military medical system and all claims relate to off-base medical appointments ( transport, meals...etc..) are handled just like regular travel claims and done through the orderly room at your base's CDU.


  Awesome, thanks alot.  I had been accumulating bridge fare and Km's etc all this time thinking my own insurance company would cover it, but just found out today that since I wasn't in my own vehicle they don't cover anything.  I have 6000 kms to claim!
  As for the CF98, I had my back broken and will be getting medically released....damn skippy I got a CF98  :nod:


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