# Victimization of Veterans



## Humphrey Bogart (26 Mar 2018)

> *Former soldier killed partner, then himself in Springhill fire deaths, RCMP say*
> 
> Family and friends say Marc Poulin, 42, suffered from PTSD and a brain injury following 3 tours in Afghanistan
> 
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486


Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim.  This article disgusts me, I mentions his partner only in name and then goes in to a monologue on how "hard done by this murderer was" because of his PTSD.

Sorry, just getting sick of this.


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## DonaldMcL (26 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486
> 
> 
> Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim.  This article disgusts me, I mentions his partner only in name and then goes in to a monologue on how "hard done by this murderer was" because of his PTSD.
> ...



We in the military, especially the combat arms, have a huge mental health issue that's not being addressed. Sure there's programs out there, but the stigma of getting help is still very real. This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to. Attitudes like yours only help to fuel that stigma.


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## jollyjacktar (26 Mar 2018)

There are guys who are falling between the cracks, it shouldn't be happening and I would hope those around them can help them towards help, it's out there.  Things have come a long way with mental health support in the system which is a good thing and great progress from 20 years ago.  But now, I worry too that anyone who has been suffering from PTSD will henceforth be looked upon as a lit fuse waiting to go off.  A different type of stigmatization that wouldn't be correct or fair either.


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## Teager (26 Mar 2018)

PTSD possibly mixed with a TBI untreated is not a good combination. If the brain has been damaged mixed with mental health you have to ask can that person be held accountable for what happened especially when that person tried to reach out for help but didn't get it?

It is never an easy thing to even understand how someone could take another life especially when that person cares about the other person. I think what the article tries to get at is could this have been avoided if the veteran had the proper help provided to him? I think advocates have been warning about this type of thing for years and have been saying the system needs to get serious about mental health and get a grip on it.


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to.





			
				Teager said:
			
		

> I think advocates have been warning about this type of thing for years and have been saying the system needs to get serious about mental health and get a grip on it.



For reference to the discussion,

The war doesn’t end when soldiers return home  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124950.0
OP: "When I learned the news last week about the Canadian veteran suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder who unsuccessfully sought help and then, overcome by his operational injury, apparently killed his family and himself-"

Vet found dead w/wife, child and mother in N.S.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124917.0
OP: "A Canadian Forces veteran who was seeking treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder has been identified as one of four people found dead Tuesday evening in an apparent murder-suicide in a rural Nova Scotia home."

Not helping veterans could turn into national security problem: Military Ombudsm  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124947.0
2 pages.


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## Humphrey Bogart (26 Mar 2018)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> We in the military, especially the combat arms, have a huge mental health issue that's not being addressed. Sure there's programs out there, but the stigma of getting help is still very real. This guy didn't get the help he obviously needed and that's a shame, we've lost two lives that obviously didn't need to. Attitudes like yours only help to fuel that stigma.



I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (26 Mar 2018)

You are in the military and the combat arms? Good for you, HB - go kill some of our enemies, but please leave psychiatry and law to the professionals in those fields.

You actually CAN and DO have cases where mental illness absolves someone from responsibility for a crime, and not just ex-military with PTSD but any Canadian with the required lack of mental ability at the time of the crime from all sorts of mental illnesses. So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.

Mental illnesses can and do make some people do some pretty abhorrent things - for which they may or may not be responsible. This potentially affects members of the military just as much as civilians at large and failing to provide proper support CAN have consequences. And people in charge in the CAF have been brushing off mental illnesses in the past - and some apparently still are if your attitude is an indication - which is not a good approach.

You call this person "scumbag" and "'piece of garbage", but you don't even know him or his circumstances. To quote a president: Sad!


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## winnipegoo7 (26 Mar 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.



The accused is dead, so there probably won't be a trial...


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## Humphrey Bogart (26 Mar 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> You are in the military and the combat arms? Good for you, HB - go kill some of our enemies, but please leave psychiatry and law to the professionals in those fields.
> 
> You actually CAN and DO have cases where mental illness absolves someone from responsibility for a crime, and not just ex-military with PTSD but any Canadian with the required lack of mental ability at the time of the crime from all sorts of mental illnesses. So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter how you cut it, a murderer is a murderer.  We should not be victimizing people who commit heinous acts just because they happened to be Veterans.  It actually hurts every other Veteran out there.  I say this because you know what the General Public thinks:

"Just another FUBARed soldier!"


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

QUOTE

Afghan vet's friend says anti-malarial drug may have sparked violence.

Various sources
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&tbs=qdr%3Am&ei=2ha5WpyAMsTBjwT5iKDwCA&q=Marc+Poulin+anti-malarial&oq=Marc+Poulin+anti-malarial&gs_l=psy-ab.3...83345.85021.0.86377.2.2.0.0.0.0.126.198.1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.KdtGVbpGSOo

END QUOTE


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## Humphrey Bogart (26 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Afghan vet's friend says anti-malarial drug may have sparked violence.



Just like Marilyn Manson and Video games were responsible for Columbine  :nod:


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## DonaldMcL (26 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.



He's being treated as someone who feel through the cracks and didn't get the treatment he required, not a victim. Your attitude absolutely disgusts me and you're actually part of the problem.


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## jollyjacktar (26 Mar 2018)

HB, what he did was wrong, without question, and I am not condoning it in any manner but I can understand to some degree.  Mental health isn't a black and white issue, there is plenty of grey. You get sucked down into the vortex and it's difficult to get back to the surface.  Some are able to come up for air like myself, I came home somewhat broken after the first and second visit to the sandbox.  It was not good times for the next couple of years.  Unfortunately some of us don't make it back to the surface and they take down those nearest to them when they go down for the final time.  There's no easy answers or quick solutions for that matter.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Mar 2018)

I know where HB is coming from. .....everyone of you reads about a gang related shooting and think "scumbags", even though the family is saying "they were good boys", but the second it's an ex -military, the excuses just fly out for them.


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## jollyjacktar (26 Mar 2018)

I don't believe that anyone here is excusing what happened, Bruce.  I'm not.  Your example though, being a gangbanger is a choice and lifestyle.  Mental health or lack thereof is neither a lifestyle or choice.  What I am saying is I can appreciate to some degree why it happened, that's the difference.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Mar 2018)

But you just gave him the "mental health" excuse by way of "family and friends" while not extending that courtesy to the family and friends  of a potential  mental health issue with a young man in downtown Toronto.  "Lifestyle and choice".....well this guy picked his, and took an innocent with him.   Just sayin. .......


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> So please leave such determination where it belongs: In courts, decided by jury of twelve good and true Canadian citizens after hearing ALL the evidence from properly trained psychiatrists who have examined the accused.



Not sure of the similarities and differences between Canadian and American criminal justice systems on the subject, but I read this,

"More veterans are using PTSD as defense in criminal cases"
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/14/nation/la-na-ptsd-20110915

PTSD as a Criminal Defense
http://jaapl.org/content/40/4/509

Having PTSD from military service can help you get a plea agreement or can be be used as a defense at trial.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/help-veterans-with-ptsd-who-are-accused-crimes.html

From Canada,

'Broken' soldier with PTSD not criminally responsible for killing wife, defence argues
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/1118-richmond


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## Oldgateboatdriver (26 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter how you cut it, a murderer is a murderer.  We should not be victimizing people who commit heinous acts just because they happened to be Veterans.  It actually hurts every other Veteran out there.  I say this because you know what the General Public thinks:
> 
> "Just another FUBARed soldier!"



There you go again: You are starting from the point of view that it is a heinous - planned - executed in cold blood murder.

I take it you served in the sandbox, and as a combat soldier, so you likely killed some enemies. Are you a murderer? No, that is not what a murder is. Did Gerald Stanley kill Colten Bushie? Yes, he even admitted so. Was it murder? No, a court who heard ALL the evidence decided it was not.

So you are jumping to conclusion without knowing all the facts. And what is your basis to do so? Apparently it is because you believe that we both know that the General Public thinks "just another FUBARed soldier!"  Well, this event took place around New Year's day (BTW, this is of some significance to people in the medical field - perhaps Mariomike can confirm from personal experience - but the Holiday Season seem to actually see a peek in suicides and grave depressions in Northern latitudes countries) and so far you are the only person and place where I have seen anyone take that attitude of "scumbag/piece of shit/FUBARed soldier. 

And BTW, we (the military) are not special in that way. There are a lot more events unfortunately called "murder-suicides" in the public at large than in the military/retired military community. These event create sadness in the General Public, even anger or feelings of helplessness in the said public as they usually have to do with some form of mental breakdown or uncontrolled anger/depression by the suicidal person - but very, very seldom if ever are these people considered by the public as "scumbags or pieces of shit". That is not the case for  gang members shooting one another in large crowds downtown TO without any regards for bystanders: Those are appropriately called by those monikers.

What you have in this case, and many other similar ones, is not victimization, it is an attempt by the population to reconcile what happened with society's norms in a way they can understand, and to to both bereave and come to terms with how to avoid repeats. I, for one, firmly believes that our human nature makes it very difficult for those of us who never suffered from mental illness to understand mental illnesses and their effects. We can all understand how someone who lost an arm cannot grab something on that side of him, but it is near impossible to figure out how someone with all limbs in perfect condition can be paralyzed from using these limbs by depression, or how one can actually fail to find the courage to go on living.

All kindly submitted for your consideration. 

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

From a Canadian legal source,

QUOTE

The Defence of "Not Criminally Responsible" Under s.16 of the Criminal Code (Formerly Referred to as the "Insanity" Defence)

A “mental disorder” is an umbrella classification of a number of mental health conditions and diseases that negatively impact a person’s mood, way of thinking, actions and ability to cope with everyday life. A few examples of these are schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, personality and anxiety and dissociative disorders, suicidal behavior, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder."
https://www.kruselaw.ca/blogpost/not-criminally-responsible

END QUOTE


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## Petard (26 Mar 2018)

A lot is being said about this former soldier, but not much about his murder victim, and there's no debating that she was a murder victim 

She sounds like she was a person of immense compassion, she was certainly brave to of entered into such a relationship 

Her sister's response to this tragedy is one of incredible grace in such terrible sadness. What a remarkable family Jennifer Lynne Semenec came from

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1555527-sister-of-springhill-fire-victim-blames-deaths-on-ptsd


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## Oldgateboatdriver (26 Mar 2018)

Apologies to you, HB. I was under the impression that this related to the events of January 4, 2018, also in Nova Scotia. They relate to another event of a day or two ago.

However, I still don't see any sign anywhere by the Public of laying this on "another FUBARed soldier", not even the family of the victim of the killing sees it that way, but rather with compassion, and it does not change my underlying argument.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Mar 2018)

This attitude has been flying around here since people started getting diagnosed and I'm getting tired of it.

I have Mod status, Subscriber status and more. 

I also have PTSD.

Now, if you've got it, and physically and mentally know your condition(s) and their effects on you, you're doing better than most out there.

I don't begrudge opinions, everyone is entitled to them. If your guessing, say so. If you want to state fact, back it up.

Keep them civil and keep them informative.

He's the caveat. If you DON"t have PTSD, or TBI, if your going to make inflammatory, unfounded statements on what you THINK is the cause someone, that's diagnosed, did something, maybe you should just shut the fuck up.

*That is the true picture of Victimization of Veterans. The ignorant opinion of posters, especially from other military members.
*
Every single case is different. We're not all deranged killers waiting for an opportunity, then there's the other extreme. The fire team partner you have or yourself may be affected without either of you knowing, but you trust each other with your lives.

I'm not trying to stifle conversation. On the contrary, I want INFORMED discussion, without the melodrama of Frankenstein's villagers.

If you want this thread to continue, sort yourselves out and watch what your saying.


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## Cloud Cover (26 Mar 2018)

I wonder how much pressure Ontario's fucked up family law system brought him even further down the sewer of unending despair that it causes. I have met many people who are homeless, suicidal and desperate because they lost everything they had, or once were. Mostly men, more frequently veterans.


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## OldSolduer (26 Mar 2018)

I'm not an expert but sometimes people aren't in their right minds. TBI etc will have an effect on a person's personality and how they cope with life in general.


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## FJAG (26 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> From a Canadian legal source,
> 
> QUOTE
> 
> ...



MM

You left out a very critical part of the definition of what constitutes the "not criminally responsible" defence. From the prior para of the same source:



> In very extreme cases an accused who suffers from mental illness may have a defence to the crime they are charged with as their mental health issue prevented them from understanding the nature and quality of their actions or prevented them from knowing their actions were wrong.



There are numerous mental health issues which could underlie or motivate a person's actions but in only very limited circumstances do those issues prevent the individual from understanding that the nature and quality of their actions were wrong. Where the person does understand that what he is doing is wrong, he has no insanity defence regardless of how severe his mental health issue may be.

In respect of this most recent incident, I have no idea as to whether or not the individual was or was not in the requisite state of mind. I doubt that we'll ever really know now. I'll withhold judgement one way or the other.

 :cheers:


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> MM
> 
> You left out a very critical part of the definition of what constitutes the "not criminally responsible" defence.



Some legal advice I remember from years ago, "Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is the best defence."


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## brihard (26 Mar 2018)

I have tried without success to find a successful PTSD based Not Criminally Reponsible defense in a murder case in Canada. I'm not saying it's never happened, just that I cannot find it. There has been at least one instance of a Canadian soldier who murdered his wife, claimed PTSD, and was convicted. There have certainly been a number of cases of soldiers with PTSD who have been involved in some serious domestic violence and have been held to account in criminal court.

I have yet to find any accepted medical literature linking PTSD to an inability to refrain from murdering someone. Psychosis - a sustained break with reality - is not a characteristic of PTSD, though brief dissociative flashbacks can be. A verdict of NCRMD requires someone to be unable to appreciate the nature of quality of their actions, and that is not something Canadian courts have tended to grant in PTSD cases even for lesser offences. PTSD may be a mitigating factor in sentencing, like other mental health conditions may be. It may have significant impact on treatment as a part of sentencing. I've yet to see PTSD succesfully argued anywhere as giving you a freebie for slaughtering your family, murdering your wife, etc. Call me an arsehole I guess, but I draw a huge line. PTSD can absolutely have a huge impact on impulse control, anger, etc, but it does not strip one of one's understanding of right and wrong. 

I will cut people a lot of slack for the crap they go through on account of mental illness. I understand first hand the impact that mental illness can have on family members. I know how dismally dark and awful things can get. I also know that some things also stay wrong, no matter what.

My family has been directly impacted by a domestic murder-suicide. Call me callous- but I've earned it the hard way. To hell with the perpetrator in such a case. They have still, at that last, awful moment, made a choice. It may not have been premeditated, it may not have been in cold blood, but it was a choice that ended an innocent life and undoubtedly wrecked several others. Nothing excuses that, and nothing short of an absolute psychotic break with reality would mitigate culpability. Until and unless I see a convincing indication of that psychosis, I'm going to stand firm on this.


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## Staff Weenie (26 Mar 2018)

I spent seven weeks as an Attending Officer in a First Degree Murder trial of a WO who killed his wife. His defense was based upon an attempt to prove that he was Not Criminally Responsible (NCR) by virtue of PTSD. While FJAG is far more capable than I to comment on this, he did note clearly that for this defense to work, it must be proven that the defendant had absolutely no understanding that their actions were wrong, and had no conscious control over their actions. That is an extremely difficult thing to prove, and there is not a high probability for success. In the case I observed, I got to know the Crown prosecutors, and the Detectives involved. They told me that even if a schizophrenic hears voices telling them to kill, if they still were capable of understanding it is a crime, they are not going to be found NCR should they act upon the voices. None of us can know if Marc Poulin was in such a state that he had absolutely no control over his actions. None of us, aside from possibly his clinicians, will know his state of mind, his full diagnosis, and the effects it had on his ability to form intent.

At this moment, I'm not happy, for as somebody diagnosed with PTSD, I know that it does impact the way others view us and I'm tired of that - I'm tired of trying to prove I'm able to contribute, and I'm not a risk. I'm not happy because some people are trying to find every excuse possible, and heap blame upon the system (are we all so sure that he went to appointments, followed treatment diligently, and did everything possible for his recovery? Is there concrete proof that the system was truly negligent?). But most of all, I'm not happy because two lives have been lost, and others are forever overshadowed by this tragedy.


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## brihard (26 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Brihard,
> 
> Your PMs are full.



Fixed, thanks.


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## brihard (26 Mar 2018)

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> I spent seven weeks as an Attending Officer in a First Degree Murder trial of a WO who killed his wife. His defense was based upon an attempt to prove that he was Not Criminally Responsible (NCR) by virtue of PTSD. While FJAG is far more capable than I to comment on this, he did note clearly that for this defense to work, it must be proven that the defendant had absolutely no understanding that their actions were wrong, and had no conscious control over their actions. That is an extremely difficult thing to prove, and there is not a high probability for success. In the case I observed, I got to know the Crown prosecutors, and the Detectives involved. They told me that even if a schizophrenic hears voices telling them to kill, if they still were capable of understanding it is a crime, they are not going to be found NCR should they act upon the voices. None of us can know if Marc Poulin was in such a state that he had absolutely no control over his actions. None of us, aside from possibly his clinicians, will know his state of mind, his full diagnosis, and the effects it had on his ability to form intent.
> 
> At this moment, I'm not happy, for as somebody diagnosed with PTSD, I know that it does impact the way others view us and I'm tired of that - I'm tired of trying to prove I'm able to contribute, and I'm not a risk. I'm not happy because some people are trying to find every excuse possible, and heap blame upon the system (are we all so sure that he went to appointments, followed treatment diligently, and did everything possible for his recovery? Is there concrete proof that the system was truly negligent?). But most of all, I'm not happy because two lives have been lost, and others are forever overshadowed by this tragedy.



I am always very leery when these stories come out about the impact they have on the continued stigmatization of the mentally ill. The contribution to the 'damaged vet' or Rambo narrative is particularly concerning. Veterans, especially those dealing with mental health issues, already have an uphill battle to face. The last thing we need is anything reinforcing the prejudice they face in the rest of society.

If a court of law, after proper consideration of medical evidence, finds someone not criminally responsible, I will accept that. I shy away from the assumption that mental illness mitigates, never mind excuses the more heinous crimes against persons. I know and am friends with many people with mental illnesses, and though there have been some bleak and ugly days, I have not seen that these individuals don't know right from wrong, nor are their abilities to decide and act so compromised that they find themselves uncontrollably doing serious physical harm.

Show me solid evidence otherwise and I will adjust my thinking- but I'm no dummy on this stuff, I understand how the law operates in these cases and where a person is considered responsible. The onus is still on the accused and their defense to show that they are not criminally responsible by reason of mental disorder for actions they have committed.


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## Staff Weenie (26 Mar 2018)

Brihard, we are in agreement. From what I am aware of, PTSD has rarely ever been accepted as a cause for an NCR defense in Canada (I've heard of one case from Western Canada), because it's so difficult to prove the defendant had absolutely no awareness or control over their actions. 

As I was told when I was a patient, the statistics Health Services had showed that a person with PTSD is overwhelmingly more likely to be the victim of violence, or to commit self harm, than to hurt others. We're not potential killers, but cases like this lead people with minimal awareness to jump to conclusions.


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## mariomike (26 Mar 2018)

I have read that PTSD can be taken into consideration when sentencing veterans in the US. 
https://www.google.ca/search?q=ptsd+%22mitigating+factor%22+sentencing+veterans&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDh4LuvYvaAhWky4MKHeemAKEQpwUIIA&biw=1280&bih=603

"In certain states, there are some limited opportunities to obtain a reduced sentence based on post-traumatic stress disorder. Having PTSD from military service can be a mitigating factor."

Perhaps our lawyers would know if PTSD is also a mitigating factor in Canadian sentencing?


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## brihard (27 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I have read that PTSD can be taken into consideration when sentencing veterans in the US.
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=ptsd+%22mitigating+factor%22+sentencing+veterans&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiDh4LuvYvaAhWky4MKHeemAKEQpwUIIA&biw=1280&bih=603
> 
> "In certain states, there are some limited opportunities to obtain a reduced sentence based on post-traumatic stress disorder. Having PTSD from military service can be a mitigating factor."
> ...



Mental illness can absolutely be a mitigating factor in our sentencing. Sentencing in Canada is pretty complex- I've seen judges describe it in their decisions as the hardest part of their jobs. Mental illness absolutely comes into play. Sometimes it'll mean shorter sentences coupled with treatments. Other times it may mean longer sentences to help an offender get access to treatment and counselling. Other times, mental illness may be disregarded as insufficiently relevant or significant in the facts of the case. Now, this is following a finding of criminal guilt. Mental health can come into play at every step. As a police officer I have apprehended many people under the relevant jurisdictional Mental Health Act for involuntary assessment because they're a danger to themselves or others. I have laid charges in situations where I had discretion not to specifically because I knew that laying a charge (appropriately, and with facts that fit) would also allow me to recommend to crown that they seek mental health assessment for the offender. I have submitted bail packages that strongly urged that a person be held in custody longer for the purposes of such assessment. I have charged someone for assaulting me, and in doing so I impressed upon crown my belief that the behaviour stemmed from mental health disorder and that treatment was the appropriate course of action, but that only the court could ensure it happened. I've put in reports and evidence that helped offenders get diverted from jail to treatment because that was the right approach to reduce their danger to the public. I've also dealt with people who were quite clearly mentally disordered, but who just as clearly understood what they were doing and understood the wrongness of their acts. I've always done my best in cases where mental health is involved to get as full a picture as I'm able to, and to communicate it to crown and the court- something I think I can fairly say I'm more attentive to than most in my profession.


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## Cloud Cover (27 Mar 2018)

The case of R v Small in 2017 gives a short readable summary of the requirements of the defence of NCR based on mental disorder. Not a lot of recent cases discuss in much detail the precise diagnosis of an accused, but tend to focus on whether the accused was morally blameworthy if the science supports the defence. I suppose one would have to look at cases in the consent/ capacity to stand trial board reviews to see if PTSD alone has been a contributor to the defence. PTSD has been on the scale of recognized disorders since 1980’s so it would be surprising if it has not worked its way into one or two defences for murder. 

Insofar as my own personal experience PTSD goes, it is tied to depression, anxiety and dissociation and self harm, never about harming others. That part-harming others- is what has me confused. Nobody in the vet groups I attended in London showed or expressed inclination for that, although angry outbursts and sudden high amplitudeso of rage followed by long bouts of really awful self loathing and soul destroying sorrow usually followed. And then, of course, pulling back and away from anyone and everyone. VAC helping me with the working dog was so helpful, he saved me but above all my girl Tara pulls me through after I lost everything and I hope Iwill always have her with me and that I hope I never let her down.  

That’s my 0.02, but read the Small case. The judge is alluding to something more than a passing state of mental disorder. Again, I am not personally able to reconcile PTSD with harming someone, it’s the farthest thing from my mind at those times and in those awful moments. 
I think James Taylor nailed it 48 years ago with Fire and Rain. “ my body’ s aching and my time is at hand, and I won’t make it any other way. ...but I always thought that I would se you again”.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2018)

To those who are going with the 'murdering scumbag' crowd;

- if you have PTSD or any mental health issues, you should know, first off, that not everyone responds to, reacts to the same incidents the same ways.  If you've managed to get by, BZ to you but don't look down your nose at people less resilient.  

- if 'all murders were the same' in Canada, the guy who beheaded that kid on the bus and ate some of him wouldn't be free now, would he?  https://nypost.com/2017/02/11/man-who-beheaded-bus-passenger-granted-total-freedom/

It is tragic that another one of our vets has taken his own life, and even more tragic he took an innocent person with him;  but I'm not going to give the guy the trial he'll never get because of things I think that I can never prove to be facts.   Maybe you can consider him a victim also, of 'himself'.  Suicides aren't victimless actions, right?  

Careful with your tar and feather parties.


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## brihard (27 Mar 2018)

I have considered all of that and I remain completely comfortable with everything I have said. Guy went through some awful stuff. Got it. Then he killed his wife. PTSD doesn’t make you do that, or at least medical science and the courts have not found it to, and I’m satisfied with the body of knowledge on that. I will allow for the possibility of TBI induced psychosis, and if decent evidence comes out of same, alright. But working off what is known and has been said, that has not been introduced. A woman was murdered and a family destroyed. And yes, there was a suicide too.


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## jollyjacktar (28 Mar 2018)

I just saw this story on CBC. Very hard to watch as that Easter in 07 was the start of problems for me too.  I'm sick at heart to see these two brothers were swallowed up.



> Brothers in arms: Ron and Ryan Anderson both survived tours in Afghanistan — but not PTSD
> In a Canadian military family, parents watched their sons die slowly, unable to conquer the trauma of war
> 
> Ron and Ryan Anderson were soldiers — good ones, too, according to their friends — but they didn't die on the battlefield. They died at home in Canada, unable to deal with what they saw and did during war.
> ...


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## Strike (29 Mar 2018)

Echoing EITS, the attitude against this soldier are pretty shocking.

Yes, murder is wrong.  Yes, he murdered his partner and killed himself.

But unless you've ever had to deal with a major depressive disorder, really, who are you to judge?  Judge the action, not the person.  When a person is in a depressive state all they are looking for is a way to get out - get out of the pain, get out of the trouble they feel they are causing everyone, stop the surge of emotion, or even lack of emotions.  You do things that are extreme and more often than not, end up hurting the people you love the most.  It's very hard to explain and harder still to understand unless you've been there personally**.  No, this doesn't excuse the man's actions.  But focussing only on the actions of the man is not going to prevent this from happening again in the future.  You need to work backwards and try to understand why he was in that state and then find ways to reduce the chances of people reaching that state again.

**Yes, I've been there and am now constantly focussed on when my mood drops, as is my spouse.


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## brihard (29 Mar 2018)

Strike said:
			
		

> Echoing EITS, the attitude against this soldier are pretty shocking.
> 
> Yes, murder is wrong.  Yes, he murdered his partner and killed himself.
> 
> ...



I want it to be understood that I'm saying this as respectfully as I can, because I have nothing but sympathy and empathy for anyone who has to live with the hell of depression. It's awful, and what it does to the individual and to their relationship with others is awful. I respect that for years you've had to deal with it. I cannot accept though that in this case, one cannot have a meaningful or correct opinion without personally suffering the mental health disorder in question (or others, for that matter). The increasingly huge body of knowledge on mental health comes from a lot of sources, and the scholarly and legal ones are just as in play as the qualitative lived experiences.

We *are* judging the action. To murder someone is awful and wrong. And that action was committed by a person. I absolutely accept and agree that depression and PTSD can have an impact on suicide. That, I think, is a no-brainer at this point. What is in question here though is whether PTSD removes from a person the element of choice when they murder someone- whether that person is incapable of controlling their actions through some sort of automatism or through a psychosis that removes their understanding of the actions they're taking. Show me the predictive or causative, not correlative relationship between PTSD and murder. Until proven otherwise, murdering someone is a choice. And yes, some people with PTSD or depression or other disorders have made that choice. There's absolutely a lot of overlap between violent offending and mental health disorders. There are established correlates showing that veterans with PTSD linked to combat exposure are more likely to be violent and to show antisocial behaviours. But that's not the threshold we're looking at here- we need more than that, we need a mental health condition to have removed from a person choice in whether they kill their spouse.

If someone has a mental health disorder so profound that they cannot control their violence or cannot perceive reality accurately and as a result end up harming someone, then that's where a person may be absolved of criminal responsibly. Anything short of that, tragic as it still genuinely is, remains a domestic partner being killed by someone who became a violent *******, and who still bears accountability for their actions and choices.

This is a really, really hot button for me due to some stuff within the immediate family. I've been taking this as slowly and methodically as I'm able to, and going back and doing a bunch of edits to make sure I'm keeping my tone in check. Please don't think I'm just firing off without thinking here. Unfortunately it's something that has consumed all too much of my thought for some years now.

I wish that we did not have people coming back sick and hurting and broken. I wish we didn't have people so desperate for the pain to stop that they take their own lives - I think I have enough credibility established in that regard. I really, really want all of our people to be OK, and for there to be the right help when they're not. But even my friends and colleagues who have been at their absolute worst have consistently showed some things and not shown others- they are most destructive to themselves and to relationships, and not in the sense of directly and physically harming others. The few exceptions to that even at that are usually much more on the lower end (in terms pf tangible physiological harm) of assaultive behaviour. A murder is so far beyond what is normally seen that it's going to take some solid research showing loss of autonomy or perceptions of reality in PTSD sufferers for me to be able to see the condition excuse the crimes. I trust that should such evidence begin to show itself, the psychological research community, and in turn appropriately informed criminal courts will recognize that.


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## Petard (30 Mar 2018)

What seems to be the emerging narrative in these kind of extreme cases, is the idea that the actual murderer is exempt from blame because they were overwhelmed by their mental health situation
I think that's a reasonable thing to discuss 

To me, it sounds self righteousness to limit that discussion to only those contending with PTSD. 
But if somehow "qualifying" one's opinion is needed here: soldiers I was responsible for, and myself, were physically attacked by an ex-soldier diagnosed with PTSD, on more than one occasion. I didn't know that individual, they had been released long before I was posted to their former unit. Yet in their reasoning they were doing what was desperately needed to draw attention to the situation they were in, and to him I had not personally done enough to reach out to ex-soldiers of the unit. During court proceedings, his former spouse made it known she feared for her life. The ex-solder remained unremorseful throughout the court proceedings. That he was suffering with PTSD was a prominent factor considered by the court. Upon his release for time served, he attacked family members again and was incarcerated again. 

I've counseled soldiers that have fought with mental health issues, and were able to return to full duty, I've seen some that were not able to and were unfortunately medically released. 
Sadly, I don't believe my experience is all that unique, but am I allowed then to at least state an observation?


It sounds like the OP was implying that they don't agree with the expectation, that those diagnosed with PTSD are somehow exempt from accountability for their actions, and not just in the horrific extreme case of murder-suicide. To that degree, from my experience, he has a valid point, and that does not mean I'm tarring everyone diagnosed with PTSD as a grenade with the pin pulled, far from it
I get the "just leave me alone" mindset, and I frequently seen it come up even in lesser matters such as remedial measures (and is discussed on a thread elsewhere on this site)
But those suffering with PTSD do need to be held to account when their behavior threatens others, or when their behavior is clearly becoming detrimental to themselves and/or those around them. Whether it's in criminal court, family court, summary trial or acknowledging a performance or conduct shortcoming, it is necessary. I don't see that as being a bad thing, and to do otherwise would not necessarily help that person recover either. Those incidents that they are being held to account for, tend to be the ever more alarming uh-oh lights, that those providing support and care need to know about. Giving them a free pass in hopes it won't escalate a bad situation, I think, can very well have the opposite effect, and put innocents at greater risk


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## TCM621 (30 Mar 2018)

Some people in this thread seem to be mistaking reason for excuse. Unless this was a case of psychotic break, or something similar, where he didn't know what he was doing, he was responsible for his actions. That doesn't mean that mental illness,TBI, the lack of resources from Veterans affairs, etc. did not contribute to the situation. At this point people are dead. The murderer in this case already paid the ultimate price at his own hand, perhaps to balance the scale (in his mind at least) for what he had done. We will never know.  All we can do at this point is to do all we can to prevent this from happening to anyone else in this situation. That involves finding the reasons it happened.

Earlier the Colton Bushie trial was brought up. There were a lot of lesson to be learned from that incident. Like don't get drunk and attempt to steal a car from a rural property owner. Or if you plan to own a gun or protection, ensure it is in working condition and you have serviceable ammunition.

We can lament the fact that one our brothers in arms fell so far. We can lament the fact that it may have been preventable had our Veterans services not been so poor. We can lament the fact that some one who cared enough to attempt to help him paid the ultimate sacrifice.


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## Journeyman (30 Mar 2018)

Strike said:
			
		

> But unless you've ever had to deal with a major depressive disorder, really, who are you to judge?


       :stars:

I've mulled over my response for a day now, trying to avoid contravening the site's personal attack regulations.  Were it not for the solemn nature of the topic, your comment would be laugh-in-your-face... irrational.  << not my first choice word

In your mind, to be 'qualified' to make any sort of judgement here, one must have dealt with a major depressive disorder;  I assume you mean wrestling with such demons personally, and not _merely_  dealing with it through close friends and associates.  I must therefore presume that my involvement with soldier suicide Boards of Inquiry, time working with the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, and personally dealing with friends and troops just isn't enough for me to have thoughts on the matter. 

But that isn't how society learns and evolves.  While I wasn't a German prison camp guard in 1943 Poland. I didn't participate in the Selma-to-Montgomery marches in 1965, or more recently, I've never been a Saskatchewan farmer or an indigenous kid with skewed sensibilities... yet through reading and thinking I _somehow_  have opinions on all of them -- maybe even somewhat informed.


As for judging the action, not the person, it's murder.  Not judging the person, but judging the PTSD apologists, I don't think the overwhelming number of personnel (regardless of PTSD or not) need people presuming that we're all murdering psychopaths-in-waiting because some individuals will blithely dismiss these events as "well, he had PTSD; who are you to judge?" 

Really.   :2c:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Mar 2018)

http://calgarysun.com/news/crime/marlborough-park-murder-suspect-shot-by-police-west-of-edmonton

Is anyone here going to argue on his behalf or just state that it's good that he's dead??  Yup, that's what I thought.....


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2018)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Unless this was a case of psychotic break, or something similar, where he didn't know what he was doing, he was responsible for his actions. That doesn't mean that mental illness,TBI, the lack of resources from Veterans affairs, etc. did not contribute to the situation. At this point people are dead. The murderer in this case already paid the ultimate price at his own hand, perhaps to balance the scale (in his mind at least) for what he had done.



I think those are good points.



> We will never know.



This is the second most important fact in this case, IMO.  This is, at this time, the most important point in the thread.  Everything else other than 'he committed murder then suicide' is subjective.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Mar 2018)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://calgarysun.com/news/crime/marlborough-park-murder-suspect-shot-by-police-west-of-edmonton
> 
> Is anyone here going to argue on his behalf or just state that it's good that he's dead??  Yup, that's what I thought.....



And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????



Comparing apples to bowling balls


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## Kat Stevens (30 Mar 2018)

Must have had MH issues, did you _see_ that hairdo?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Mar 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And, l see no mention of mental health problems... so, your point is????



Peoples reactions.....which would include your assumption of none.


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This is the second most important fact in this case, IMO.  This is, at this time, the most important point in the thread.  Everything else other than 'he committed murder then suicide' is subjective.



Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Mar 2018)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Peoples reactions.....which would include your assumption of none.



Sorry, still not following you???

None, what???


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.



I agree, mostly because, well let's be honest here;  you are far more educated and experienced on this subj in more than one way than I am or likely ever will be - there's no argument on that, from me.

I'm just trying to point out that no one will ever truly know what happened leading up to the murder/suicide.  I'm just not going to throw the "he's a POS!" towel in the ring.  

Ref 'current medical knowledge of PTSD', we don't know what we don't know about it, we only know what we know about it 'at this time'.  Medical professionals years ago used to drill holes in people's head to 'let out the demons'.  They don't do it now because medical science has advanced;  who knows what medical, science and the legal system will know and how much it will change WRT PTSD, TBI, etc over the next decade or two.  Shell shock was called cowardice once and people were executed for it.


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## TCM621 (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Right, but it’s not like PTSD is a total mystery. Symptomology and diagnosis is quite well established. Our sample here is not limited to PTSD sufferers who then commit murder and then suicide- many, many people have suffered and have been studied. Across all the many studies of PTSD, psychosis and automatism are not in there as established symptoms. So while in absolute terms there’s some subjectivity, there is a pretty good degree of confidence that PTSD does not do to a person what it would need to do to absolve them of responsibility. Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here.



You circled right around to my main point.  "Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here." PTSD is likely not an excuse but it may be one of the reasons that lead to this. Maybe without the PTSD, he never heads down this road which leads to two dead people. Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street. That is the point of this discussion, not wether or not he should be absolved of responsibility.


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> You circled right around to my main point.  "Enough so that I’m not close to comfortable saying murder can be excused by mental illness here." PTSD is likely not an excuse but it may be one of the reasons that lead to this. Maybe without the PTSD, he never heads down this road which leads to two dead people. Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street. That is the point of this discussion, not wether or not he should be absolved of responsibility.



There are a few things being discussed here and a couple parallel threads of conversation. I don’t disagree with any of what you just said, but it’s also not the discussion all of us are having. A few other members have been throwing out straw men suggesting I and others are saying things like “POS” or “scumbag” that we have not uttered. I and I think a few others are fighting back against the notion that a person is not blameworthy for domestic violence or murder because of PTSD. There’s huge risk in general to the population of mentally ill veterans that comes from a normalizing of the “dangerous PTSD vet” narrative. Anything falsely contributing to that needs to be challenged- and that includes splitting the quite thick hair between ‘contributes’, ‘causes’, and ‘excuses’.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> There are a few things being discussed here and a couple parallel threads of conversation. I don’t disagree with any of what you just said, but it’s also not the discussion all of us are having. A few other members have been throwing out straw men suggesting I and others are saying things like “POS” or “scumbag” that we have not uttered.



Let's back up a little then...



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/springhill-house-fire-death-suspicious-fire-1.4590486
> 
> 
> Only in Canada would a piece of garbage who murders his partner be labelled a victim.





			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I am in the military and I am in the combat arms.  I'm also not happy because a murderer is being treated as a victim.  Call him what he is, a murdering scumbag.  Having a mental illness doesn't absolve someone from responsibility for a crime. I'll save the pity party for someone who is actually deserving.



Ok, so it wasn't literally "POS" but may as well of been.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> It may not have been premeditated, it may not have been in cold blood, but it was a choice that ended an innocent life and undoubtedly wrecked several others. Nothing excuses that, and nothing short of an absolute psychotic break with reality would mitigate culpability. Until and unless I see a convincing indication of that psychosis, I'm going to stand firm on this.



The part in yellow;  it is quite impossible to prove a psychotic break did/did not happen, yet you've decided and judged in absence of something that it is, literally, never going to be possible to prove one way or the other.  

Just something to consider...


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## Jarnhamar (30 Mar 2018)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Maybe if he had gotten the appropriate intervention early on, he makes a U turn or a least turns on to a less dangerous street.



One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the phone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.   People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.

Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.

I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

I'm going to wait for the Coroner's Report before I try figure out what happened and why. I'll use that as a professional diagnosis of where to start. A Coroner's Investigation will wind through the intricacies of the problems.

All I'm going to say is that many mental illnesses, of the same diagnosis, have wildly different effects on people, who on outward appearances are the same. 

No one case is the same as another.

Certainly, at this point, by simply looking at the layman's speculation of the causes, diseases, outcomes wished for, denied or stated you can see the disparity of positions. And none of those speculations have any connection whatsoever to this case, until proven in court.

So I will wait for that. 8)


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## jollyjacktar (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> There’s huge risk in general to the population of mentally ill veterans that comes from a normalizing of the “dangerous PTSD vet” narrative. Anything falsely contributing to that needs to be challenged- and that includes splitting the quite thick hair between ‘contributes’, ‘causes’, and ‘excuses’.



This.  As someone who has that on their medfile, l too am alarmed at the thought of huge brushes being applied to all of us.  The new PAL initiatives being spun up by the GoC, for instance.  Even though my wings are for the most part steady and level will that make a difference to some segments of "the system" out there?  I don't know.  But too, l don't trust the current PM for that matter either to not have a knee jerk response as he seems to like to do.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the ohone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.   People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.
> 
> Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.
> 
> I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.



And that, is exactly what I mean. If people, in physical contact find barriers to treatment from their charge, they should pass the person to someone more qualified.

It's alright for peers to help, if they wish. However, when it starts to overwhelm the supporter, it's time for them to seek a higher level care for their buddy. We don't need the supporters getting mental problems by osmosis.

Every single person serving should be given the ASIST training and other mental health training available to help them understand. A weeks worth of lectures and practice. Then EVERYONE knows what to look for and how to handle it. Instead of a precious few per unit. It's not like we don't waste at least that much time on CYA mandated training anyway. Some have a single incident that wounded them, sometimes it's cumulative and you won't see it coming. That's what they determined for mine. They figure it started with a couple of highly traumatic incidents in the '70's and kept getting worse until I was almost full blown PTSD before deploying to Afghanistan. After return to Canada, it took a professional to spot it. Explains a lot of things in my career. Mine was so smooth and long term that the effects weren't noticeable as out of place or alarming.

So please, in your discussions, remember that there is a human on the other end of your conversation, with severe problems whatever they may be. People are and will continue to traumatized over this. While we can wildly speculate and spitball, no one here is qualified to judge any case, whether in the news or in the unit by what a newspaper or TV station says. And no one here is an expert on mental health, treatment or knock ons of any particular case.

Tone down your indignation please and try stick to the facts as known.


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

Ah, my mistake, I hadn’t closet read HB’s initial posts in a couple days now.

To dismiss “here is what a particular disorder is well known to do” as “wild speculation” and such is disingenuous. Again, PTSD is not at all a new disorder. What it does to people is well documented and understood.

I’m gonna try to sum this up to make sure my view is extremely clear:
- A person with PTSD murdered his girlfriend and then took his own life.
- The event is unquestionably a tragedy.
- The person happens to have been a veteran.
- The veteran likely would have benefitted from accessing more resources and services than they did, for whatever reasons may have been.
- PTSD is a well researched disorder with known symptomology.
- That known symptomology, again from extensive research, does not include anything that will typically result in a person not being criminally responsible for murder.
- Canadian courts have heard arguments and have not found PTSD to absolve someone of criminal responsibility for murder.
- Medical literature does not appear to lean this way either.

Therefore, to my mind, a person with PTSD who murders someone else remains responsible for that murder. To claim otherwise, against current medical evidence and legal precedent, will require that claim to be proven by anyone making it. It is possible, but nothing at all convincing to me has come up yet.

I am prepared to separately consider whether traumatic brain injury - briefly mentioned in his story - may separately be in play in stripping a person of control over their behaviour. That’s less understood at this point. It would also be dependent on his case history to prove. In any case, a murder in the context of domestic violence isn’t something I will loosely cast off a perpetrator’s responsibility for unless there is something exceptional in play.

I’m not saying the situation doesn’t suck. I’m not saying his death isn’t tragic. I’m saying that despite his medical condition, he remains responsible for killing another person until and unless some wildly new knowledge about PTSD should emerge to prove otherwise, and that his case history as known supports same. If this opinion offends or is unpopular, I am not troubled by that. Killing one’s domestic partner is offensive and unpopular too.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

I'm not disputing a single thing in your post. I'm not familiar with the guy or his family. I was never inside his head. I don't know what his diagnoses is. I don't know what brought him to that place, that day.

I cannot speculate based on news report and statistics of PTSD from the internet. You know what they say about statistics and only a medical professional or educated layman can truly understand them. I'm sure they have a basis in fact, but those stats should be questioned, possibly updated, especially with new information coming in daily. I won't discount them, but depending, they might not get that much weight either.

General statements in discussions of what we know is fine, like the stats. We could discuss them. I think we need more of that so people can start understanding something most of them don't, regardless. So long as it sticks to a non personal bent.

I find the discussion of a Brother, the condemnation and the wild accusations of ignorant laymen disgusting. Not one single person should be saying anything about his mental illness until the final determination, nor should they be drawing ill guided, unfounded verdicts about the incident.

If you knew them, celebrate their lives, the times you had, maybe your closeness on deployment.

I didn't know them but will wish them godspeed just the same.

Again, a general discussion of all things PTSD would be welcome.

Piling on of an individual, without understanding any of the outliers is immoral and revolting to the Brotherhood we belong to. And even if we matched every statistic to him, we'd still be guessing, and that's something we shouldn't be doing.


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

What wild accusations? Is it in dispute that he murdered his girlfriend and lit the house on fire before killing himself? It does not appear to be. I don’t see guessing here. I’m not sure what other ‘accusations’, wild or not, are in play here. I’m not sure when it became wrong to level condemnation at murder, but if it has, then that’s a point we’ll have to disagree on.

A person who does this is no brother of mine. He was once. His choices changed that. There are many other things he could have done instead of what he did.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2018)

I took some time to let what I said percolate.  

For the record, I never once said PTSD isn't a serious illness or thay I do not have any empathy for those who suffer from it.  My OP was made after being generally pissed off that the media turned this man in to some sort of victim.  

The ex-soldier in question is a murderer and I'm pissed that they are using PTSD as an underlying cause for his actions is stupid.  PTSD doesn't make someone a murderer.   

So yah, I am condemning him for it and no he isn't my brother, he killed an innocent woman.  

There is nothing different from this man than from a guy like Basil Borutski.  Both are cowards.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> What wild accusations? Is it in dispute that he murdered his girlfriend and lit the house on fire before killing himself? It does not appear to be. I don’t see guessing here. I’m not sure what other ‘accusations’, wild or not, are in play here. I’m not sure when it became wrong to level condemnation at murder, but if it has, then that’s a point we’ll have to disagree on.
> 
> A person who does this is no brother of mine. He was once. His choices changed that. There are many other things he could have done instead of what he did.



Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I will not condemn or comment on any case like this where the information is from a newspaper. Wild accusations? Yelling to all to see that he's a cold blooded murderer? I'll grant, he did the deed. But I will not take your's or anyone else's word here that he's a murderer, until the coroner rules it so. Never mind your statistics, gut feelings, personal experience or your particular line of work. You have no authority to call him a murderer until everything is in and concluded. I mean, rules of evidence right? You, nor anyone hear knows exactly what happened. How about you just wait for the real professionals to deduce what the causes were. He did something horrendous, let's stay calm and figure it out., not run out and start building a scaffold. People can continue to repeat their 'wild accusations' until we really find out, from those that really know what they are talking about. But anyone rushing to judgement on this guy, doesn't have the facts. But if you say he's a murderer, and you sleep fine, don't let me impede on your sense of fair play. Don't let me turn your monster into just a sick and mentally unfit person, undeserving of any consideration. 

Reading medical stats from a book and trying to fit them to a person is exactly, one of the reasons, why VAC is so fucked up. Because all stats do not fit all situations. Especially if you're talking mental health issues, but you appear cemented to yours as gospel. Meh, I can get my measure of people here and know when the discussion has passed a certain point of knowledge.

Reply if you wish. You and me are done with this. You're not changing and neither am I, but it was interesting getting your perspective.

Thanks.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I took some time to let what I said percolate.
> 
> For the record, I never once said PTSD isn't a serious illness or thay I do not have any empathy for those who suffer from it.  My OP was made after being generally pissed off that the media turned this man in to some sort of victim.
> 
> ...



He didn't commit murder. Quit calling him a murderer Perry Mason. He committed a homicide. It will be murder if and when they prove he had the mental capacity to know that he was committing murder, intentional or not. So just knock that shit off. That's what I'm mad at. Not that he did the deed, but that all of you have already pigeon holed him with your unfounded allegations. You've never met him but call him a coward. You have no idea what he's done, previously, or what he's suffered.

It's 100% your fault for going off and condemning this guy on the say so of a fucking news article written by an journalist. You are free to judge now, with no facts other than a homicide/ suicide occurred as described by Jimmy Olsen. Or you can wait for ALL the facts. It may not change your mind, but at least it's a fair and knowledgeable judgement instead of tar and feathering on a whim.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Unless I think of something else, you guys can keep up with the hypothetical causes. Me, I'll wait for more input from a professional investigation.

Thanks for the discussion.


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## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> He didn't commit murder. Quit calling him a murderer Perry Mason. He committed a homicide. It will be murder if and when they prove he had the mental capacity to know that he was committing murder, intentional or not. So just knock that crap off. That's what I'm mad at. Not that he did the deed, but that all of you have already pigeon holed him with your unfounded allegations. You've never met him but call him a coward. You have no idea what he's done, previously, or what he's suffered.
> 
> It's 100% your fault for going off and condemning this guy on the say so of a ******* news article written by an journalist. You are free to judge now, with no facts other than a homicide/ suicide occurred as described by Jimmy Olsen. Or you can wait for ALL the facts. It may not change your mind, but at least it's a fair and knowledgeable judgement instead of tar and feathering on a whim.
> 
> ...



Murder is a synonym of homicide.  

Feel free to put me on ignore if you wish.  You'll never agree with what I have to say anyways and even if you did, you would never admit it


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

It was the investigating police that said it was a homicide - suicide. Had it appeared to be a tragic accident they would have said so. That would be the professionals doing their work, I believe. Such things would not be stated without input from the coroner. I also did not say “cold blooded”. I in fact already pointed out that I wasn’t saying that elsewhere in the thread. Nor have I called anyone a monster. Best not to put words in my mouth when I’ve been exceedingly clear about what I am and am not saying.

Do I feel his mental health was a factor? Absolutely. I just see absolutely nothing saying a choice wasn’t made by him. That’s not statistical quibbling- that’s based on a damned firm understanding that PTSD doesn’t make people kill other people. If that were not the case, we would see PTSD immediately resulting in MELs to not have weapons, revocation of firearms licenses, discharge from police services, etc.

I am not cemented in anything- merely very convinced by a lot of evidence about what this disorder does and doesn’t do to people. I am open to having my mind changed if the evidence supports it. There are and have been enough people out there with PTSD that if loss of control to the point of murder were a symptom, it would be well documented. I invite anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

Someone being not criminally responsible as a result of mental disorder is a defense that needs to be raised and proven. It is never presumed that a person is incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of their actions.

I am sure that everything around this and all of the circumstances were truly awful, and that this could have been avoided. I am not heartless and I’m not saying anyone else is or was either.


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## brihard (30 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Murder is a synonym of homicide.



Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.


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## Humphrey Bogart (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.



Yes, but it is used synonymously in common speech by non-legal/law enforcement common folk, a group which I am part of.  

I'll end by saying I think you have made the most well reasoned argument in this entire thread Brihard.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not precisely. Homicide is one person killing another. It includes justified killing, such as in self defense or defense of another, or in combat for that matter. Murder is homicide without legal justification.





			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Murder is a synonym of homicide.
> 
> Feel free to put me on ignore if you wish.  You'll never agree with what I have to say anyways and even if you did, you would never admit it



Thanks for finally admitting my point. You stopped short on what might be considered other circumstances though. Most importantly, mental capacity. I'll wait for a doctor's diagnoses for that from the Coroner's Investigation, they'll have access to all his med docs, and I will not wildly speculate on someone's condition. No matter what a journalist or someone diagnosing with a list of symptoms tells me. It may not have been PTSD at all, maybe he did do it on purpose. No one here knows, so no one should be making judgement on him, until they do. You guys always hammer me for facts, gotta have facts or it's bullshit. None of you have facts, other than what has been reported, if it was factual, and whatever supports your biases but you decided he was a murderer and crow it at every opportunity.

He's not a murderer until it's proven. Got that? So everyone can stop calling him that until it is proven. Whether PTSD had anything to do with it, will be determined later by professionals. And nobody here is qualified to judge. Nobody here knows the facts but you've all decided anyway, by trying to read into the story what fits your narrative from the news. I am not defending his actions, nor the reasons. If you're going to call someone a murderer, you better be damn sure he is, and right now you can't. You can guess and surmise, but it doesn't make anyone right.

Quit vilifying him until you know what you're talking about. There's a shattered family and community out there, don't make it worse for them with your crass, unproven theories and name calling.

Disagree with everything you say? Would never admit it? Short memory there HB. I said nothing of ignore, other than not being drawn into this. Something I failed at miserably and immediately but intend to correct right now. I don't care your feelings on the subject or motivation. The only judgement of yours bothering me is your calling him a murderer without cause.

What I do find odd is the ruckus and vindictiveness of this case. I don't recall similar when the last similar incident happened down east a few months back. Maybe my memory is going.

I'm sorry guys. Maybe I'm not being clear or maybe I'm missing something. All I'm asking for is some patience, without resorting to mayhem and to stop using such jarring and incorrect (at this point) monikers as "Murderer". I'll not defend one way or another at this point whether it was the PTSD or not. I don't have a clue, but it does deserve to be raised. As does every other possible known cause. Even if I had the facts, I'm not sure as a layman, whether I would be able to draw out the nuances of the words like a physician might.

"He's a murderer, and his PTSD defence (as forwarded by a journalist) is bullshit" (paraphrasing a general feeling here guys, not calling anyone out), is not the way to investigate nor is it truthful, until proven. Please remember that. If it turn's out that he is a cold blooded killer, I have no problem as long as we did our best to understand why it happened, without the baggage of preconceived stigmas.

Hopefully, I'm done now.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Murder is a synonym of homicide.



Funny memory:

Sandhurst, Welsh Guards Colour Sergeant extremely annoyed at one OCdt who couldn't master saluting:

'Sir, if you do that again I could murder you but, because I am a professional, I will commit homicide.'  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Mar 2018)

I've nothing of value to add at this point, but I did just want to say, quickly, that this thread is, IMO, another good example of a discussion on the site where people kept their cool and colored inside the lines, despite some very different opinions, especially about a few sensitive subjects that touch many of the site members closely in different ways.  

BZ


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## Strike (30 Mar 2018)

Sorry for the late jump back in.  It was a busy couple of days.

I certainly didn't want people to think that I was accusing everyone here of not reflecting on the MH situation of the subject in question without compassion.  It was very much directed at HB's comments.  Such as:



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> There is nothing different from this man than from a guy like Basil Borutski.  Both are cowards.



It's comments like that which negatively affect those who are dealing with serious issues of MDD, associated with whatever situation, be it PTSD, PDD or some other MH illness.  It shows a complete lack of understanding of severe MH issues and is why I made the reference of having to have been there to really understand what it means to have a MH issue and reach such depths.  I certainly didn't mean to poo-pooh your views on the subject at hand in the original article.

But thanks to all for the measured responses.

I'm certainly not saying that I see mental illness as an excuse to commit any crime, but it does need to be considered as an extenuating circumstance.


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## Humphrey Bogart (31 Mar 2018)

Strike said:
			
		

> Sorry for the late jump back in.  It was a busy couple of days.
> 
> I certainly didn't want people to think that I was accusing everyone here of not reflecting on the MH situation of the subject in question without compassion.  It was very much directed at HB's comments.  Such as:
> 
> ...



Well how is it any different?  A number of people seem to be focusing purely on the PTSD aspect of this case.  You seem to be taking my posts as an attack on you or an attack on people with PTSD when that's simply not the case.  

You also seem to mostly not acknowledge that a woman is dead.  You also choose to ignore the main reason I started this thread, to call out the narrative of "this man killed a woman because he was a poor traumatized veteran".  I vehemently disagree with this narrative and believe it actually does a disservice to people who do suffer from mental health issues.

Brihard said it, there is no correlation between PTSD and murdering killing someone, if there was we would see a heck of a lot more killings and from Police Officers, EMS workers, firefighters or basically anyone who has ever suffered any sort of traumatic event.

A man killing a woman in cold blood is about the lowest thing.  Sits right beside killing a child on my moral compass.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> One problem that sometimes occurs is that some people don't want help.  You can drive them to appointments, skip PT to sit in their closet with them, pay their bills, make excuses for their behaviour,  sit on the phone for hours with them but if they don't want to really get better they won't.   People invest time, money and sanity to help but the member doesn't want to help themselves. I don't know its due to some facet of their mental illness  but in some causes I think people do actually enjoy being a victim and the attention that comes with it.
> 
> Im sorry if that's insulting and in no way  shape or form am I accusing members here of that but I think we would be disingenuous to act like it doesn't happen.
> 
> I know we'll often say people fall through the cracks and say they didn't get the help they needed, and lean towards blaming the system (which in many causes IS at fault) but sometimes someone had access to a ton of help, a ton of  programs and peer support  but they don't take it.  And the slap in the face comes when they get in front of a camera or screen and start talking about how no one is helping them.



This right here.

I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........

And RG, certainly not a slag, but 'professionals' are not the end all be all.  Within the last 2 weeks I have spent a couple of 12 hour shifts watching a remanded psych inmate and I'm still always shocked at how little attention anyone gets at these facilities.  There is seriously more human contact in seg at your average jail then what I've seen at  these facilities.  
Nothing can beat the plain good old 'humans who care' contact.


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## Humphrey Bogart (31 Mar 2018)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> This right here.
> 
> I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........
> 
> ...



 :nod: And all the schooling in the world won't help someone develop interpersonal skills.


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## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> And all the schooling in the world won't help someone develop interpersonal skills.



Personality. If you don't have it, you might as well quit.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Brihard said it, there is no correlation between PTSD and murdering killing someone, if there was we would see a heck of a lot more killings and from Police Officers, EMS workers, firefighters or basically anyone who has ever suffered any sort of traumatic event.



Maybe people are more resilient than some would think?

eg: In the wake of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, more than 9,000 counselors went to New York City to offer aid to rescue workers, families, and direct victims of the violence of September 11, 2001. 

"Although psychological debriefing is widely used throughout the world to prevent PTSD, there is no convincing evidence that it does so. Some evidence suggests that it may impede natural recovery."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26151755


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## TCM621 (31 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> A man killing a woman in cold blood is about the lowest thing.  Sits right beside killing a child on my moral compass.



I know people keep homing in on your word choice but words have meanings and with those mean vs come connotation. I doubt very much this killing was done in cold blood, very few killings are. To kill in cold blood means to kill without remorse or emotion. People who kill in cold blood rarely commit suicide.

Homicide-suicides are committed by people with diagnosed mental health issues <60% of the time. It is reasonable to assume a significant portion of the remainder had undiagnosed MH issues. There is also the issue on TBIs and while the data is sparse, evidence is growing linking TBIs and violent behaviour such as this.
Edit:
It was pointed out to me that I didn't provide a reference for the percentage of peony with MH issues. Here is my source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4889623/

It is only one study but it gave me an overall number whereas most of the others were focused on a single issue such as depression.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> This right here.
> 
> I know it was suggested that then you pass to 'someone more qualified' but that's simply just justifying words.  Its a fact that some people, no matter what, will follow the destructive path iregardless of the help given, offered, or paid for.  Go down the list of celebrities who could have afforded 24/7 help, and were probably making enough money for someone else that they did, and yet still went off the tracks........
> 
> ...



No problem Bruce! Please don't take this as a slag either.  So your suggesting forget the professionals and just hug the inmate? I don't ever recall saying that 'professionals' are the end all to be all. Humans who care? Lock em up when you go home from shift.  :rofl:

I've had a bunch of the courses also for people like this. I am not an expert, but I will tell you, that if you have someone like this, you will have an exceedingly rough time keeping up, mentally and physically. Your inmates don't call you at home, or drop by and you aren't going to come in, even for OT, to sit in his cell and listen for the hundredth time about the same incident. These people do. If you don't pass them off, you will become a casualty yourself.


I'm not interested in talking about inmates that can be locked down when you're tired of listening. Our charges walk the street, come to your house, share meals and some want to make you their 24 hr/day listening post. And these people are not criminals, living in jail exasperating the condition. The only crime they have committed is that they are sick

The layman is not equipped for that, even with all the neat training we can get. Perhaps we should lock them all up, go with your method and get some voluntary 'huggers' from the university to sit with them. 

Cheers.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Well how is it any different?  A number of people seem to be focusing purely on the PTSD aspect of this case.  You seem to be taking my posts as an attack on you or an attack on people with PTSD when that's simply not the case.
> 
> You also seem to mostly not acknowledge that a woman is dead.  You also choose to ignore the main reason I started this thread, to call out the narrative of "this man killed a woman because he was a poor traumatized veteran".  I vehemently disagree with this narrative and believe it actually does a disservice to people who do suffer from mental health issues.
> 
> ...



I have used the term PTSD in this discussion. I've also used the term, 'mental illness a number of times. I am not talking exclusive to PTSD. I am not a Dr, nor a clinical psychologist. I've done reading on both conditions, some I understand, some I don't. The discussion originally focused on one person and PTSD. It has morphed. Nothing to be done about that. I don't typically believe much on the internet unless it can be placed, by me, as real. I've seen all kinds of professional lists posted on the internet that have no backing at all. No correlation between PTSD and homicide/ suicide. Hmmm, Brihard does some good research and I'm not saying his info is wrong, which seems a crux of what you are both saying, to me, but I would need a little more professional and peer reviewed research (and likely a shrink willing to explain it all) before I made a definitive statement like that. I also won't class murder based on the sex or age of the victim or killer. All loss of human life, by taking it, is equally reprehensible. If the Coroner's investigation finds no correlation, I am absolutely fine with that. Maybe it was his meds that did it. 

I'm simply saying, until the proof is all in, properly investigated by the right people, "a homicide/suicide occurred that may, or may not have had to do with PTSD or other mental illness or.... or......" Not "an ex soldier murdered his girlfriend an killed himself because he had PTSD, but I don't believe it because I read PTSD won't do that to you, he's just a murderer."

Is it possible to see the difference? I think it is.

If that doesn't make sense to you, I can't do anything about that.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Mar 2018)

RG....actually when I'm at the hospital with one he's a 'patient'*.......and I can, 100% without a moments hesitation, state that every single shift he/she [done some Vanier ones] got more personal interaction from myself an my partner then from ANYONE on shift at the hospital that day or night.
And yes, they do call back to work sometimes.......though I will admit they don't come to my house. ;D

All I was stating is 'professionals' aren't always that.......IMO of course.

* EDIT: and where I work now they are called 'residents'.  Not everyplace is a DC.


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## Blackadder1916 (31 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Maybe people are more resilient than some would think?
> 
> eg: In the wake of the terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center, more than 9,000 counselors went to New York City to offer aid to rescue workers, families, and direct victims of the violence of September 11, 2001.
> 
> ...



I was hesitant in wading into this discussion, however being the pedant than I am, I am also somewhat quick to point out the flaws in citing individual studies/abstracts/reports as proof/indication of anything.  Therefore, I would be wary of Mario's quoted reference since the work is nearing 15 years old.  With the incidence of military service related stress disorders on the increase since that time, it may have been more appropriate to quote something more recent and more (military) relevant.  However, I think that the passage quoted by Mario, while supporting the theorem that "debriefing" may be counterproductive, it doesn't distinguish between debriefing (immediately after an event for everyone) and "early intervention" (shortly after an event when participants "may" be displaying warning signs). Perhaps it would have been better to quote (especially for those who don't bother to read the item linked) the following from the same abstract.



> Some researchers have developed early interventions to treat individuals who are already showing marked stress symptoms, and have tested methods of identifying those at risk for chronic PTSD. The single most important indicator of subsequent risk for chronic PTSD appears to be the severity or number of posttrauma symptoms from about 1 to 2 weeks after the event onward (provided that the event is over and that there is no ongoing threat). Cognitive-behavioral treatments differ from crisis intervention (e.g., debriefing) in that they are delivered weeks or months after the trauma, and therefore constitute a form of psychotherapy, not immediate emotional first aid. Several controlled trials suggest that certain cognitive-behavioral therapy methods may reduce the incidence of PTSD among people exposed to traumatic events. These methods are more effective than either supportive counseling or no intervention. In this monograph, we review risk factors for PTSD, research on psychological debriefing, recent recommendations for crisis intervention and the identification of individuals at risk of chronic PTSD, and research on early interventions based on cognitive-behavioral therapy. We close by placing the controversy regarding early aid for trauma survivors in its social, political, and economic context.



Something more recent (2017) that posits a similar position on "debriefing" is

The Air Force Deployment Transition Center: Assessment of Program Structure, Process, and Outcomes.


> Abstract
> 
> It is often accepted as common knowledge that military personnel benefit from decompression time between a war zone and the home station. To capitalize on the potential benefits of a decompression period paired with support services, the U.S. Air Force established the Deployment Transition Center (DTC) at Ramstein Air Base in Germany in July 2010. The DTC provides airmen returning from combat missions with an opportunity to decompress and share lessons learned before returning to their home stations. The authors of this study evaluate the structure, processes, and outcomes of the DTC program. They find that, although a majority of participants found the DTC program worthwhile, a comparison of DTC participants and similar airmen who did not participate the program shows no evidence that the program helps reduce posttraumatic stress disorder symptoms, depressive symptoms, binge drinking, or social conflicts with family and coworkers. In addition, one of the DTC program elements appears to be similar to posttraumatic debriefing interventions, which several studies have found to be either ineffective or harmful. For these reasons, if the main goals of the DTC program are to improve behavioral health and social conflict outcomes, the authors recommend that the DTC program be discontinued or redesigned and Air Force resources invested in alternative programs. However, if the DTC program has other goals, such as providing rest and relaxation to airmen after a difficult deployment or capturing after-action information, then the authors recommend that these goals be documented and the DTC program be more specifically tailored to them.



But the discussion of whether or not intervention is helpful (or even welcome) for all who may suffer from PTSD is straying a bit from the OP which has  certainly unleashed some varying opinions about the personal qualities of the individuals involved in murder/suicide or even about the definition of murder.

To start, I would suggest that instead of speculating about the relationship between PTSD and "murder", change the terminology to "Intimate Partner Violence" (IPV) and you may find a few more studies that may challenge some of the statements made here that there is no correlation.  After all, IPV may be considered a continuum of behaviours/action that range from the mild to the ultimate violent action, homicide.  Thus, I offer this link as a discussion point.

The Role of PTSD in Bi-directional Intimate Partner Violence in Military and Veteran Populations: A Research Review.


> Abstract
> 
> Evidence supporting the higher prevalence of PTSD linked to combat-related trauma in military personnel and veteran populations is well-established. Consequently, much research has explored the effects that combat related trauma and the subsequent PTSD may have on different aspects of relationship functioning and adjustment. In particular, PTSD in military and veterans has been linked with perpetrating intimate partner violence (IPV). New research and theoretical perspectives suggest that in order to respond effectively to IPV, a more accurate understanding of the direction of the violence experienced within each relationship is critical. In both civilian and military populations, research that has examined the direction of IPV's, bi-directional violence have been found to be highly prevalent. Evidence is also emerging as to how these bi-directional violence differ in relation to severity, motivation, physical and psychological consequences and risk factors. Of particular importance within military IPV research is the need to deepen understanding about the role of PTSD in bi-directional IPV not only as a risk factor for perpetration but also as a vulnerability risk factor for victimization, as findings from recent research suggest. This paper provides a timely, critical review of emergent literature to disentangle what is known about bi-directional IPV patterns in military and veteran populations and the roles that military or veterans' PTSD may play within these patterns. Although, this review aimed to identify global research on the topic, the majority of research meeting the inclusion criteria was from US, with only one study identified from outside, from Canada. Strengths and limitations in the extant research are identified. Directions for future research are proposed with a particular focus on the kinds of instruments and designs needed to better capture the complex interplay of PTSD and bi-directional IPV in military populations and further the development of effective interventions.



The full article is available (see below abstract at link) and the Canadian study is also on-line Cross-sectional prevalence survey of intimate partner violence perpetration and victimization in Canadian military personnel


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## a_majoor (6 Apr 2018)

Changing direction a bit, I got a strange missive from the Rebel. (The Rebel is interesting SA for what passes for the Canadian "right" these days). According to them, their charitable fundraising for CF members has been rejected by both CFB Borden (the initial cause for their fundraising drive) and by another charitable organization. Is anyone aware of this from the other direction (i.e. from the POV of Base Borden or the Canada Company?) I'd like to get a better view of this because the story is so strange:

https://www.therebel.media/liberal_meddlers_and_interlopers_hate_rebel_more_than_they_love_our_veterans?utm_campaign=rr_04_06_18&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel


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