# OLD REGULATION ON RED TUNIC UNIFORM



## WLSC (14 May 2006)

I would like to know were I can find pre-unification dress regulations on the red tunic uniform.

Thank


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## Trinity (14 May 2006)

RED TUNIC?

sounds like a regimental uniform??


Any more description you can give?


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## Michael Dorosh (14 May 2006)

Service Publications has reprinted many older sets of dress regs - see http://www.servicepub.com

I don't know that regimental ceremonial dress is covered in them; as Trinity suggests, this may be a regimental thing and most regiments have never worn red tunics. Some Highland regiments adopted a green coatee in lieu sometime in the 1950s, for example. They probably exist in regimental dress regulations as a theoretical full dress uniform, but most regiments have never had the money for them.


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## WLSC (16 May 2006)

The unit is the Fusiliers Mont-Royal.  We still have some old uniformes but we want to make new one.  We are missing details about the accroutrement for ranks


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## Michael Dorosh (16 May 2006)

FusMR said:
			
		

> The unit is the Fusiliers Mont-Royal.  We still have some old uniformes but we want to make new one.  We are missing details about the accroutrement for ranks



Why wouldn't your regimental museum have that information in the archives?


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## George Wallace (16 May 2006)

Check with DHH (Directorate of History and Heritage).  They may still have "Sealed Patterns" for those uniforms.  

You should get a copy of Canadian Forces Dress Regulations, A-AD-265-000/AG-001

Look in that book, Chapter 5, Full Dress And Band Full Dress Uniforms

Appendix 2, Annex A, Chapter 5, para 26. Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal.  Fusiliers.  White Facings.

In this Appendix 2, Annex A, you will find diagrams of the uniforms.

Infantry Trousers have a 1/4" scarlet trouser stripe.  The trousers are Dark Blue.

The Scarlet Tunic Facings being White, would mean that the collar, cuffs and shoulder boards would be white.  The trefoil is usually Gold.


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## Gunplumber (16 May 2006)

I have the Dress Regs at home and I will bring it in tommorow, I also have older Dress Regs and will check out what the FMR wore in the past. I collect pre WW1 uniforms and I have tons of info on them. I will get back to you asap.


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## WLSC (16 May 2006)

As for what the 265 says, it's fine.  The facing, the trefoil, that's ok.  We need the detail differences between, and we know there is, NCO,s and jr NCO's.  We have some old old jr rank and officers uniform plus some old photo but strangly no NCO's uniform.


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## George Wallace (16 May 2006)

Ref: the trefoil; it usually gets more elaborate as the rank of the individual increases.  You may have to rely on old photos to get a better idea for each rank, if that is your worry.  

Another source of information may be Parks Canada and their establishments at some of the Forts that are National Historic sites.  

CATALOGUING MILITARY UNIFORMS, by David Ross and Rene Chartrand is a book that may help you with some of your questions.  It is a publication of the New Brunswick Museum.


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## Gunplumber (16 May 2006)

There wasnt a lot of differences on ORs/NCOs uniforms. Around 1900 RSMs and a few CQMS would have gold braid on their tunics and they would have been a better quality but later on they did not have the gold lace. Officers did have differing quantities of lace/trefoil but in 1902 that was also standerized so that all officers from Lt to Maj would have the same lace. A trefoil was not common on British NCOs uniforms. They were mostly a plain pointed cuff. More tommorow.


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## Michael Dorosh (16 May 2006)

Gunplumber said:
			
		

> There wasnt a lot of differences on ORs/NCOs uniforms. Around 1900 RSMs and a few CQMS would have gold braid on their tunics and they would have been a better quality but later on they did not have the gold lace. Officers did have differing quantities of lace/trefoil but in 1902 that was also standerized so that all officers from Lt to Maj would have the same lace. A trefoil was not common on British NCOs uniforms. They were mostly a plain pointed cuff. More tommorow.



Incidentally, I've sent you a PM. No rush to reply, I just mention it as it is easy to miss the new messages symbol.


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## geo (16 May 2006)

Hmmm....
Your Regimental museum should have a copy of the old CAMT dress manual
ALSO
it is most likely that the uniform was based on a British pattern - so you mght find some information with your "alied regiment"
ALSO
with respect to ceremonial scarlets, you should talk to the "ceremonial guard" in Ottawa or the Adjt at the CGG who continue to wear scarlets... considering that the CG has retained "pips & crows" AND added Maple leafs to the NCO ranks, they should be yor best source of information.... and they also have contacts for the tailoring issues you might have.


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## George Wallace (16 May 2006)

Or you could try the Grenadier Guards in Montreal.


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## geo (16 May 2006)

(aka CGG)


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## Gunplumber (17 May 2006)

The Guards wear a different pattern to line infantry so it wont do much good. 
Dress regs (A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Annex B para 25) say for the FMR: Fusiliers. White plume white facings; "flechee" officer waist sash.
I can fax these to you, also with the illistrations if you need them.


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## geo (17 May 2006)

think we all know about the white facings.
The FMR appear to be looking at having a batch of ceremonial red tunics.  Excluding the facings (which is more of a mes kit issue) the tunics should be similar to the CGGs and tailoring specs should be similar.


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## RRCMWO (17 May 2006)

Another source is The Royal Regiment of Canada, they still wear the ceremonia; scarlets.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 May 2006)

Finally found it!  This is an old website that has been kicking around for awhile, with pictures of the various patterns. I can't speak to its accuracy.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/dctiegs/2002/regiment.html







And no details on rank distinctions but never hurts to have another source; I emailed the webmaster a year ago or so and don't think he got back to me. Seems like you have a few leads in any event.


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## WLSC (21 May 2006)

Thank to all

   My regimental allied regiment in UK is disband sine 1968, I am in contact with their museum but it's a long process.  As for modern CDN references, I've got them.  Somewere, into time and space, in a forth dimension, my unit kept one of those NCO's uniform...!!!

  An other easy question for you.  Except for William Scully, what company built Canadian military metallic buttons ?

Thank again


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## geo (21 May 2006)

You might want to try Penny's of Thunder Bay.
http://pennys.ca/
The Owner, Myles Penny has been supplying Regimental Kit Shops and the CF in general for a long time.  His prices are competitive and his network of foreign manufacturers is extensive.... and he usually delivers on schedule - though dealing with small foreign contractors does cause the occasional Quality Control problem.


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## geo (21 May 2006)

Also found "sheba imports" of London Ont............

http://www.sheba-imports.com/mainsite.html


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## George Wallace (21 May 2006)

Another company is Canadian Buttons Limited.  (Sorry for the poor photo - hard to scan a button  ;D )

The biggest competition for William Scully and company is JR Guant (or is it Gualt? - Michael can correct me if I am off)


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## geo (21 May 2006)

JR Gaunt......... and sons

Gaunt was a Montreal business........... dissapeared from the face of the earth some time ago. They may have set up shop elsewhere but have not seen any accoutrements with their name on it for many a year......


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## army outfitters (21 May 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> You might want to try Penny's of Thunder Bay.
> http://pennys.ca/
> The Owner, Myles Penny has been supplying Regimental Kit Shops and the CF in general for a long time.  His prices are competitive and his network of foreign manufacturers is extensive.... and he usually delivers on schedule - though dealing with small foreign contractors does cause the occasional Quality Control problem.


You must be joking? Really? I think that you should check around some more before going this route. But hey try it and you will see what you end up with. Don't say I didn't warn you. Or better yet send your money to the government so that they can give it away to some third world country. The end result will be the same


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## GGHG_Cadet (21 May 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> JR Gaunt......... and sons
> 
> Gaunt was a Montreal business........... dissapeared from the face of the earth some time ago. They may have set up shop elsewhere but have not seen any accoutrements with their name on it for many a year......



JR Gaunt and sons were purchased by William Scully. I found that out when looking for some ceremonial buttons. I believe it says something on William Scully's website as well.


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## Michael Dorosh (21 May 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> You might want to try Penny's of Thunder Bay.
> http://pennys.ca/
> The Owner, Myles Penny has been supplying Regimental Kit Shops and the CF in general for a long time.  His prices are competitive and his network of foreign manufacturers is extensive.... and he usually delivers on schedule - though dealing with small foreign contractors does cause the occasional Quality Control problem.



Or just go straight to the same Pakistani sources Penny's uses and cut out the middle man.

(JR Gaunt it is.)


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## Black Watch (21 May 2006)

there's a new surplus in Beloeil...They sale red tunic, but GGFG pattern...


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## Michael Dorosh (21 May 2006)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> there's a new surplus in Beloeil...They sale red tunic, but GGFG pattern...



You can get brand new ones out of Pakistan for less than 200 dollars Canadian; quality may not be as high as a Guards jacket, but if you are only wearing them once or twice a year, why not? Some of our regimental pipers doublets were made up in Pakistan almost 15 years ago and are still standing up well. On the other hand, a custom made doublet here in Canada costs 600 dollars or more. Lots of options - buying second hand, off the rack, and a uniform of completely the wrong pattern, makes little sense.


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## Black Watch (21 May 2006)

those jackets are in good shape and are 75$ea...


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## army outfitters (21 May 2006)

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> JR Gaunt and sons were purchased by William Scully. I found that out when looking for some ceremonial buttons. I believe it says something on William Scully's website as well.


Sorry you are incorrect. Gaunt still exists in the UK. Just finding them is the problem. The 48th still buy buttons from them as they do not like the quality of the CF issue ones. These are worn on the full dress uniforms.


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## GGHG_Cadet (21 May 2006)

Sgt Bilko Surplus said:
			
		

> Sorry you are incorrect. Gaunt still exists in the UK. Just finding them is the problem. The 48th still buy buttons from them as they do not like the quality of the CF issue ones. These are worn on the full dress uniforms.


Oh really? Do you know how to contact them?


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## Michael Dorosh (21 May 2006)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> those jackets are in good shape and are 75$ea...



What good is it if they are the wrong pattern, and don't fit?

GGFG Tunic - 






FMR Tunic -





By the time you found a tailor to rip off the shoulder straps, collar, and completely redo the sleeves, I suspect any savings you may have made are nil....

Not to mention the number of buttons down the front is different...the GGFG are the only Canadian regiment to wear buttons in twos rather than singly.


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## geo (23 May 2006)

Michael..... the CGG & GGFG follow the traditions of the Brigade of Guards in the UK. In Canada as in the UK, thte Grenadiers buttons are done singly. Not in pairs.

Given that new jackets are tailored for the CG each summer, there might very well be lightly worn jackets that most base tailor shops could modify at very little expense.


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## Michael Dorosh (23 May 2006)

From a GGFG websbite



> REGIMENTAL FULL DRESS
> 
> The scarlet tunic and bearskin cap worn as Full Dress are patterned after our allied Regiment, the Coldstream Guards. The uniform has been modified to distinguish the GGFG from the Coldstream. The red plume is worn on the left side of the cap and, the badges are Regimental. *The buttons are in pairs like the Coldstream Guards *who are the Second Regiment of Foot Guards.



My point was that if jackets are being sold surplus with buttons in pairs, they are worthless to the FMR. The original poster said "there's a new surplus in Beloeil...They sale red tunic, but *GGFG *pattern..."

I stand to be corrected on the matter of the buttons, if you have a better source than I do?


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## George Wallace (23 May 2006)

Just to add to this little discusion on buttons.  The buttons are positioned as per the Regiment of Guards.  If they are for the 1st Regiment, the buttons are singly spaced.  If they are for the 2nd Regiment, then they are in twos.  The Third Regiment in threes and the Fourth in fours.


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## Kendrick (23 May 2006)

I concur.  We, 1st Regiment, CGG, have singles.  GGFGs (we work with them every summer) have pairs, as mentionned earlier.


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## Kendrick (23 May 2006)

I should also add that perhaps you should contact the CG organization in Ottawa, they should have set up shop by now.  They get plenty of new tunics, and could most likely direct you to the suppliers and tailors.


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## geo (23 May 2006)

hehe.... which was my original point.... some 3 pages ago


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## Jungle (23 May 2006)

Have you considered contacting the R22eR kit shop at the Citadelle ?? They have hundreds of red tunics, and I believe they have some made every year. I am inclined to believe they would have historical info on the different Regt'l dresses.

The R22eR website (In French only): http://www.r22er.com/
The R22eR museum website (bilingual): http://www.lacitadelle.qc.ca/

Here's an e-mail adress:
magasin@r22er.com

Bonne chance !!


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## Black Watch (23 May 2006)

I was just trying to help


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## seanus (13 Jun 2006)

;D
Gidday,
I'm new to the forum but was very interested in this particular topic.
I love to research British Commonwealth uniforms from 1855 to the Second World War.
I'm trying to get hold of dress regs for this period and have been marginally successful.
I have the 1907 regs and a copy of the 1932 regs (without the Infantry).
Can anyone help with other regs?
Happy to pay for anything I can get.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Jun 2006)

seanus said:
			
		

> ;D
> Gidday,
> I'm new to the forum but was very interested in this particular topic.
> I love to research British Commonwealth uniforms from 1855 to the Second World War.
> ...



There are no other official regs - Service Publications (http://www.servicepub.com) has reprinted the 1907 and 1932 regs as well as the 1943 War Dress Regulations and sells them in bound form. Other than that, you'd probably need to look at regimental archives for individual unit regs. Officially, army wide, there were no others that I'm aware of.

The archives in Ottawa will yield lots of correspondence and orders, though; I used a whole stack of such for my next book on Second World War officers' uniforms.

Books are good too and easier to synthesize than original dress regs, which don't always tell the whole story.

One good book you might like if you don't have it yet is Grant Tyler's book http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Drab_Serge_and_Khaki_Drill  Drab Serge and Khaki Drill which benefits from original research.

I'd also recommend my own book Dressed to Kill http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Dressed_to_Kill for Second World War stuff, and Clive Law's Khaki http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Khaki_%28book%29

Both of the latter are available from Service Publications.


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## Black Watch (14 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> From a GGFG websbite
> 
> My point was that if jackets are being sold surplus with buttons in pairs, they are worthless to the FMR. The original poster said "there's a new surplus in Beloeil...They sale red tunic, but *GGFG *pattern..."
> 
> I stand to be corrected on the matter of the buttons, if you have a better source than I do?


I was worng, it's CGG patt.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Jun 2006)

As far as I know, there are no other dress regs for that era. The next set came out in 1943, though a long letter from the Master General of the Ordnance did come out in 1939 as a form of dress regs for officers. I've researched my next book in part from that letter, and a fistful of other period documents - but no formal dress regs were laid down til the middle of the war. Canadian  Army Routine Orders do have a lot of info on dress though, as do Canadian Army (Overseas) Routine Orders.  

Anything specific you wanted to know?


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