# No more blue berets at Remembrance Day



## John Nayduk (29 Oct 2004)

I hear that we are not allowed to wear our blue berets this year.   Anyone else hear that?


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Oct 2004)

No


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## Spr.Earl (29 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> No



Yup I received a email stating no more U.N. Beret on Nov.11.


Remembrance Day Celebrations

9 Nov 2004 

Practice at 0900hrs on the 9 Nov 04 for all AEF members with the following assigned positions:         


10 Nov 2004

Killarney Secondary School 0830hrs to 1500hrs. The following members will participate in the celebrations on the 10 Nov: 
   Dress is DEU 1A with medals.


CTC Celebrations 1015 hrs at the school Gym. All AEF members not tasked elsewhere will participate. Dress will be DEU 1A with medals.


11 Nov 2004

Chilliwack celebrations   The following members will participate in the celebrations at chilliwack.



Form up with ASU Chilliwack at 1000hrs 11 Nov 04 behind the Vedder Legion. Dress is 1A with medals. 

Vancouver HQ celebrations The following members will participate in the celebrations in Vancouver:



Thurs 28 October 2004 @ 1900; and
Thurs 4 November 2004 @ 1900.
Please have the volunteers report to the BD HQ bldg, room 155B on the aforementioned dates. Dress for the practices will be dress of the day with a coat. When selecting your volunteers please inform them they will be required to attend both practices, and should expect to be in position on the 11th for approx. an hour. All logistics will be handled form this location, and are booked. Please inform the volunteers that we will meet at the BD Blg room 155B at 0800 on the 11th of November. Any questions pertaining this message can be addressed to the undersigned. Thank you for your time.

Hope   The following personnel will report to Hope to participate in celebrations there.


Abbottsford Cenotaph All remainder of 192AEF personal not assigned for celebrations elsewhere will report to MWO Arsenault at the Abbottsford Cenotaph.   You will form in to a flight and participate in the Remembrance Day celebrations. Dress will be DEU 1A with medals.


Note:   -   UN Beret is no longer authorized to be worn on Remembrance Day.

	-   All 192 AEF members will be wearing a Poppy.

Updated 21 Oct 04


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## Gunner (29 Oct 2004)

Considering 99.999 per cent of the 110,000 canadians killed while wearing the Maple Leaf, I think a better question is why you would want to take off your regimental beret and badge in order to wear foreign headgear.  The medals on your chest denote where, when and with who you served as a Canadian soldier.

If I recall correctly the "honour" or distininction of wearing the blue beret was a result of "Peacekeepers" winning the Nobel Prize in 1988.  We were allowed to wear the blue beret the next Remembrance Day in honour of this and the CPSM was also as an outcome of this distinction.  However, the wearing of the blue beret was only for that year but it continued on year after year but we were not authorized to do so.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Oct 2004)

In my own opinion I think it should be worn in recognition of those who were killed on U.N. Missions.


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## Gunner (29 Oct 2004)

And those Canadians killedewhile wearing the engineer cap badge?


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## Spr.Earl (29 Oct 2004)

Gunner said:
			
		

> And those Canadians killedewhile wearing the engineer cap badge?


All trades!!


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

I am completely with Gunner on this. Wear Canadian kit on a day to honour Canadian dead. The UN blue beret is not an item of Canadian dress. The medals tell the story: if you were there you've got one.  Most of our guys who have died overseas in the last three or four years were not wearing the blue beret anyway: they were on NATO or coalition ops.
Cheers.


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

In a discussion at the HQ it was mentioned there's now a "Peacekeepers' Day" in the summer, and the understanding was that would be the day for acknowledging the blue beret.

Please - let's also remember - we're dealing with a huge problem of public perception vis-a-vis the Canadian Army being combat capable warfighters first, with peacekeeping simply being one of the gazillion things we're tasked to do ... (i.e. there are also lesser lights out there who'd be in favour of transforming the Army into a "peacekeeping constabulary" ... but then, who'd defend Canada ... ?)

So, let's not allow this to deteriorate into a "blue on blue" (NO pun intended!)
We all know what Remembrance Day is for:  Fallen Comrades, who aren't there to wear their campaign stars and medals on parade - we have to ensure the rest of Canada doesn't lose sight of that.


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## Lance Wiebe (29 Oct 2004)

All those parades, I have always refused to wear the blue beret on Remembrance Day.  (Unless I was on a UN op)  I could give a rats a** about the blue beret.

Remembrance Day is held in Canada for Canadians to remember those who have served.  While many paid with their lives, many more paid with injuries.  The theatre, the war (declared or not) doesn't matter.  None of those who died joined our military to serve in the UN.  They joined to serve Canada, they wore the Canadian uniform.  And, darn it, so should we!


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> I could give a rats a** about the blue beret.



So, don't hold back - tell us how you really feel ... (chuckle - just kidding - you're loud and clear)


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> All those parades, I have always refused to wear the blue beret on Remembrance Day. (Unless I was on a UN op) I could give a rats a** about the blue beret.
> 
> Remembrance Day is held in Canada for Canadians to remember those who have served. While many paid with their lives, many more paid with injuries. The theatre, the war (declared or not) doesn't matter. None of those who died joined our military to serve in the UN. They joined to serve Canada, they wore the Canadian uniform. And, darn it, so should we!



Right on Lance Wiebe. And right on, bossi: we need to get rid of this constant reference to soldiers as "peacekeepers". It's like calling firefighters "cat rescuers". The term "peacekeeping" is fast becoming so ambiguous that it is almost meaningless. Cheers.


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## bossi (29 Oct 2004)

Cats?  Cats???  CATS BAD.  DOGS GOOD.

Who ever heard of a seeing eye cat, or a police cat, or a bomb-sniffing cat?
No!  While St. Bernards are out there with flasks of brandy rescuing people in the Alps, and those great big goofy Newfs are swimming in the coldest waters to rescue people from drowning ... where are the cats?
They're smothering babies in their cribs!
The only reason cats ever wake anybody up when the house is on fire is in order to save their selfish little hides (which are too small for any good use as a pelt ...)
Grrrr ... cats ...

(oh, sorry - did I say any of that out loud ... ?)


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## Teddy Ruxpin (29 Oct 2004)

I tend to agree with everyone above regarding the blue beret.  I see red (no pun intended) whenever I see it on parade, especially if it's on a younger guy who obviously didn't participate in one of the "hairier" UN missions of days gone by.

I also agree 100% with the comments about public perception.  Unfortunately (IMHO), we still have a constituency within the military that revels in the title "peacekeeper" and will put on the blue beret at every opportunity.  This is rapidly shrinking, but it is still a reality.  God knows why...


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## Gunner (29 Oct 2004)

> Unfortunately (IMHO), we still have a constituency within the military that revels in the title "peacekeeper" and will put on the blue beret at every opportunity


  A couple of links to make you see red!   

http://www.peacekeeper.ca/cavunp.html

http://www.peacekeeper.ca/


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## axeman (29 Oct 2004)

Hey Bossi eventually everything gets retired even the St. Bernard dog.   http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/WeirdNews/2004/10/12/666063-ap.html  as to the Blue beret i know that i wear mine with pride but now the UN day is separate from the remembrance day  ceremony.
As the world turns   ,,, i now wear my green beret thinking of the comrades i have lost , ppl I knew and did not . One of my school teachers went over the wall at Vimy , its taken a bit for what hes done to sink in now on days like Nov.11 i remember him and THOUSANDS like him . WHAT WE DO IS TO HONOR THEM  NOT US .


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## Teddy Ruxpin (29 Oct 2004)

> A couple of links to make you see red!



The killer is, with three tours, I don't qualify for full membership in this august organization! 

Just before we left Canada, we went through a huge panic as they tried to organize a "Peacekeeper's" parade in Winnipeg...time and money well spent... :   Unfortunately, a rather powerful former General was involved, so I believe it eventually happened.

Oh well, to each their own!


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## Gunner (29 Oct 2004)

> One of my school teachers went over the wall at Vimy



Good Lord man, how old are you?  It may be time to update your profile.  Assuming your teacher was born in 1900, he went over the wall in 1917 at the age of 17.  According to your profile you were born in 65.  Hence when you were born, he was 65.  By the time you were any meaningful age (10) he was 75.  Well done for him to keep teaching you young'uns the history of your nation.


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

> I also agree 100% with the comments about public perception.  Unfortunately (IMHO), we still have a constituency within the military that revels in the title "peacekeeper" and will put on the blue beret at every opportunity.  This is rapidly shrinking, but it is still a reality.  God knows why...



Two points:

one, because for the longest time that's all there was, and the public support for us was a fraction of what it is now, so we had to sell the "nice" stuff; but

two, let's not forget the real combat and real acts of bravery that were carried out under the blue beret: Medak comes to mind, as does Cyprus in 74/75.

Apart from those caveats, I am totally against this silly fixation with the word "peacekeeper": it is actually a handicap for us. As for the two links, I can't begrudge guys their associations. Cheers.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (29 Oct 2004)

Right you are PBI, which is why I mentioned the "hairier" missions from days gone by.  CO of the RCR BG for ATHENA 0 had a great quote on "peacekeepers" just before he deployed.  Wish I could remember it...


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Right you are PBI, which is why I mentioned the "hairier" missions from days gone by. CO of the RCR BG for ATHENA 0 had a great quote on "peacekeepers" just before he deployed. Wish I could remember it...



If you're talking about LCol Don Denne, RCR, he said words to the effect of " I cringe every time I hear that word "peacekeeper": we're soldiers not peacekeepers". Or along those lines. Cheers.


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## axeman (29 Oct 2004)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Good Lord man, how old are you?   It may be time to update your profile.   Assuming your teacher was born in 1900, he went over the wall in 1917 at the age of 17.   According to your profile you were born in 65.   Hence when you were born, he was 65.   By the time you were any meaningful age (10) he was 75.   Well done for him to keep teaching you young'uns the history of your nation.



i grad'ed in 83  he taught at his own convenience a WELL respected teacher for his depth of knowledge and experiance  just after i got out of school. he joined at age 15 yup 15, it was  him that made my schooling experience less of a grind then it normally was. yup i know what it sounded like but hey think back to your school and all your mil training occasinally there comes along one person whos depth of knowledge just allows them to come and go as they please this was one such person


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## bossi (30 Oct 2004)

Perhaps this letter to the Editor of the Toronto Star demonstrates why it is important to differentiate between Remembrance Day and Peackeeping Day
P.S. (our troops in Afghanistan did not wear the UN blue beret, nor did our Unknown Soldier)



> Peacekeeping part of national identity
> 
> CBC's Greatest Canadian contest has been a popular conversation piece, and may have even boosted national pride a little. However, a most significant individual of our nation has been greatly overlooked â â€ the Canadian Peacekeeper. I would be willing to ignore the failure to recognize this enduring symbol of our national character, which has solidified our first-class reputation around the globe, if the contest was limited to proper-named individuals only. But, at Number 21 on the list is The Unknown Soldier of World War I. The Canadian Peacekeeper has created such a reputable name for him or herself that one of the first characteristics attributed to our country is "peacekeeping." Surely, the selfless, heroic individuals who have served in Afghanistan, Haiti and Sudan deserve a spot on the list that supposedly identifies those who've made our country great.
> 
> Daniel Schwab, Toronto


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Oct 2004)

I pointed it out in the other thread and will do so here - The Unknown Soldier is a single fllesh and blood individual; one set of remains are entombed at the National War Monument.  He was a single person just as much as anyone else on the list.

"The Canadian Peacekeeper" is a concept, not a person, and should not have been on the list.


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## the 48th regulator (30 Oct 2004)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Considering 99.999 per cent of the 110,000 canadians killed while wearing the Maple Leaf, I think a better question is why you would want to take off your regimental beret and badge in order to wear foreign headgear. The medals on your chest denote where, when and with who you served as a Canadian soldier.
> 
> If I recall correctly the "honour" or distininction of wearing the blue beret was a result of "Peacekeepers" winning the Nobel Prize in 1988. We were allowed to wear the blue beret the next Remembrance Day in honour of this and the CPSM was also as an outcome of this distinction. However, the wearing of the blue beret was only for that year but it continued on year after year but we were not authorized to do so.



I remember coming back from tour and the first rememberance day with my regiment (I spent the one overseas on a mountain top; petrim) we all wore the blue beret.   I was proud as punch.   the following year was when the ruling went down, I believe, and boy was I pissed!   How dare they take that away from me!.

But eventually, I think Gunner you summed up exactly what i came to realise, that I don't need to wear a blue hat for people to see where I have gone, and the day is to honor our fallen.   What better way to pay respect than to wear the regimenal headress of our fallen commrades

Very good post Gunner

tess


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## Veterans son (30 Oct 2004)

My father served in Germany with 4th Field Squadron, RCE from 1962 -1965. As I understand, the troops were serving
under NATO command(I could be mistaken about that).

When serving with NATO, would Dad have worn a different colour beret and capbadge than that of the CF?

Thanks everyone and an informative topic too!


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Oct 2004)

Veterans son said:
			
		

> My father served in Germany with 4th Field Squadron, RCE from 1962 -1965. As I understand, the troops were serving
> under NATO command(I could be mistaken about that).
> 
> When serving with NATO, would Dad have worn a different colour beret and capbadge than that of the CF?
> ...



He would have worn the standard headdress.  I think the midnight blue beret with blue RCE flash was replaced in the late 50s with a blue forage cap.  In the field, the bush cap would have been worn.


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## Gryphon (30 Oct 2004)

You know, i may have not served within the capacity of a peacekeeper, but i feel that the decision whether to wear the blue berret or the green/black/airforce blue berret should be up to the individual.. i'm sorry, but Canada's role in the world is not in the capacity of soldiers... not any more... we are peacekeepers... we try (sometime unsuccesfully, as in many cases, one being Rwanda) but we try, and many, many nations respect and identify Canada, and the CF as peacekeepers.... Personally, I would rather be known as the peacekeeper who died trying to help people get a better life, and know that that's what i'm doing, then die and wonder if I was only sent to the country so that my Government can just get some benfit from my death...

And I do realize that the majority of soldiers who have died while in service was outside of a peacekeeping role, those who died in Bosnia, who died in Afghanistan, and who ever else died while _wearing the Canadian uniform_ regardless of what flag s/he served under still deserve recognition, and deserve to be remembered as much as Pte. Joe Bloggins who was killed on Dieppe...

Please tell me if any of this makes sense... i haven't slept in quite a while... damned schooling...


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## the 48th regulator (30 Oct 2004)

hehe understood on the sleep factor.

Don't think we are debating the validity of the peacekeeping concept and the deaths that have happened on tour, I think we are discussing the wearing of the Blue Beret on remembrance day.

What we are witnessing is a fairly odd concept, serving an entity other than our own country, and being asked to put ourselves in harms way to better a group of people in a time of need.

Think about it, we are asked to remove our beloved head dress, use our skills to stop a war, not fight one, and then told to return home and forget about the U.N.   Too some it was hard, heck I think i mentioned that in this thread already.   But, I came to realise that the 11th of November was not a day my pals and myself to parade around and show off what we have done, but a day to remember those that were not fortunate enough to be there with us.

The simple act of wearing a Poppy, is the universal way of remembering.   If people have a need to show that they are truly paying their respect to the fallen, then pin it on your chest, hat, gym bag or where ever else your fancy takes you.   

Those of us that have had the privilege (yes I can see the rolling of eyes) of serving under the U.N flag know what we did served a purpose, I sure as heck feel that I made difference.   And yes at first I wanted to wear that beret all the the time, but in the end, the memories and gongs on my chest are good enough.

So Pro Patria, Dileas Gu Brath and all the rest

tess


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## bossi (30 Oct 2004)

Veterans son said:
			
		

> My father served in Germany with 4th Field Squadron, RCE from 1962 -1965.



Perhaps somebody who's more familiar with the SSM could opine whether he's entitled to one ... ?


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## pbi (1 Nov 2004)

> soldiers... not any more... we are peacekeepers



Unfortunately, this statement epitomizes the problem we have debated at length, on this thread and elsewhere. Not only do many members of our public not understand who we are or what we are for, but within our own ranks this has become a confused issue. 

If you are in the Army, you are a soldier. If you don't think of yourself as a soldier, IMHO you are in the wrong place.

"Peacekeeping" or "Peace Support Operations" or WTH we are calling it this week are just tasks. They are not reasons for being, and as Kosovo and our participation in OEF have served to remind us, the world may call us at any time to engage in combat. Any peace support opeation can degenerate into combat with one trigger pull. And combat, as far as I know, requires soldiers.

Cheers.


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## Infanteer (1 Nov 2004)

> I'm sorry, but Canada's role in the world is not in the capacity of soldiers... not any more... we are peacekeepers...



Sure, tell that to the guys who Air Assaulted into the Shah-e-Kot.   Maybe you should try 

a) learning about what actual peacekeeping really is (Suez is a good place to start) and 

b) what Canada has actually been doing the last 10 years (except for Golan and some smaller stuff - nothing like Suez).



> we try (sometime unsuccesfully, as in many cases, one being Rwanda) but we try, and many, many nations respect and identify Canada, and the CF as peacekeepers....



Are you going to substantiate that analysis, or are you really just trying to bluff us with some of your school studies.   Please, if you're going to make bold statements to guys who have *been there* and *done that* for quite some time, provide e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.


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## pbi (1 Nov 2004)

Infanteer: while I appreciate the virtual thrashing you have just administered to gryphon664, I can't help but feel that we in the CF have, to a certain extent, been the villains in the piece by overselling this "Happy Blue Peackeeper With Floppy Hat and Candy Bars" in ast years when we were so uncertain of our existence that we were afraid to use the word "Army in public. We may be reaping what we have sown, despite the last few years of much improved publicity. Cheers.


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## Infanteer (1 Nov 2004)

> I can't help but feel that we in the CF have, to a certain extent, been the villains in the piece



I agree, and we're still guilty, only the message has changed now (Post Somalia/hazing/RMC sex scandals is my guess); it's now "Strong and Proud" and the picture is of a bunch of goofy-looking, multi-cultural, mixed-gender happy people waving like kids - if it wasn't for their odd fitting uniform, you wouldn't even think that they existed to project force and violence upon others.   This is backed by an institution that loves to hand out survey's asking us to "self-identify".

http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/

We haven't been really good in the PR department for a while.


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## Gryphon (8 Nov 2004)

First of all, sorry if I offended or anyone felt that their time served overseas  has been degraded by what I said... I guess i need to learn when to keep my trap shut, eh?



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> We haven't been really good in the PR department for a while.



agreed...


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## marshall sl (8 Nov 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> Perhaps somebody who's more familiar with the SSM could opine whether he's entitled to one ... ?



Appears that he is.

SSM-NATO BAR
An aggregate of 180 days of honourable service within the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's (NATO) area of responsibility since its beginning on 01 January 1951 and still continuing. Qualifying service is service while posted to a NATO unit, or to a Canadian Forces or allied formation or unit outside territorial limits of Canada under the operational control of a NATO headquarters, or in Canada on an operational staff directly participating in the operational control of such formations and units. In the latter case, only those staff personnel serving in an operations room directly participating in the control of ships and aircraft in NATO operations and exercises qualify for this service.


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## Veterans son (8 Nov 2004)

bossi and marshall sl

Thank you for your replies! 
Would my father be entitled to any other medals for being posted to Germany
while with the Canadian Forces please?


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## bossi (8 Nov 2004)

Not sure - It's my understanding the SSM was intended to recognise service such as NATO in Germany, since no other medals had been awarded (and, after all, this service all contributed to the eventual end of the Cold War)

Somewhere else on Army.ca there's information on how to check service records - you might like to check this out.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2004)

Veterans son said:
			
		

> bossi and marshall sl
> 
> Thank you for your replies!
> Would my father be entitled to any other medals for this posting to Germany
> while with the Canadian Forces please?



The normal issue for Germany is the SSM w/ NATO bar. That's it. Unless he had awards for exemplary service or a bravery award, something like that.


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## Veterans son (8 Nov 2004)

Thanks for your reply, recceguy!


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## nastysasky (10 Nov 2004)

It has come to my attention that members on the Canadian Forces Army Reserve have been ordered NOT to wear their blue UN beret on Remembrance Day.   Members of the CF that have served on United Nations Peace Keeping missions are able to wear the world recognized BLUE Beret on November 11 (Remembrance Day) as a symbol of there contribution to world peace keeping.   
   I myself have served as a Canadian peacekeeper in Bosnia on a NATO mission so I do not wear the blue beret but a few of my friends do, so this is how I have heard about it.   I am attempting to get my hands of the original email stating that Canadian Forces 38 Brigade Head Quarters has ordered this.   Remembrance day is the only day of the year that these still serving members of the Canadian Forces army reserve are allowed to wear there Blue Berets and to be told that it is no longer deemed proper dress is a slap in the face.   Canada is known throughout the world as the country that created Peace Keeping and now for members of our military to be told they can not display with pride that they have indeed represented Canada in one of it's greatest world contributions is a horrible over site on someone's part.
   I am hoping you can help with this in letting everyday average Canadians that once again another piece of Canada's pride and tradition is being pushed aside because it is deemed â Å“not worth the effortâ ?.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2004)

Already covered here:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/21935.0.html

Moving yours there.


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## bossi (10 Nov 2004)

nastysasky said:
			
		

> ...   Remembrance day is the only day of the year that these still serving members of the Canadian Forces army reserve are allowed to wear there Blue Berets and to be told that it is no longer deemed proper dress is a slap in the face.



NOT TRUE.  Apparently there is going to be a "Peacekeeping/Peacekeeper Day".



			
				nastysasky said:
			
		

> ...  I am hoping you can help with this in letting everyday average Canadians that once again another piece of Canada's pride and tradition is being pushed aside because it is deemed â Å“not worth the effortâ ?.



NOT TRUE.  Much effort is being expended in order to ensure Canada's pride and tradition of *Remembrance* is NOT pushed aside.  Equally, much effort is also being expended in order to ensure Canada properly understands and is proud of our tradition of being soldiers first, peacekeepers second.


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