# Canadian Gasoline prices



## kratz (29 Apr 2018)

Moving forward IAW the new policy.

We are all affected by current gas prices. Drivers see price changes almost daily, and public transit riders see the changes a bit later. For those truly self motivated, the effect of higher gas prices affects all of us through the cost of transporting products for consumers to purchase.

13 years ago, a normal price at the gas pump was around $0.80 cpl (cents per litre) and a barrel of oil never had never rose above $60.
Since that time, the wild peaks and valleys of oil vs. gas at the pumps has been shredded. Consumers were accustomed to a pattern, 
that has not held for a number of years.

Today, gas at the pump hit the highest in Canada when Vancouver sold $1.619 cpl, and oil per barrel is an average of $71 per barrel. It's important to note, the news reports the national average is $1.334 cpl.

How do companies justify a 34% increase at the pumps, when oil per barrel has increased by  16%  ?


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## jollyjacktar (29 Apr 2018)

The low buying power of the Canadian dollar is what kills us.  That and the fact gas is factored in USD.


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## ModlrMike (30 Apr 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> Moving forward IAW the new policy.
> 
> We are all affected by current gas prices. Drivers see price changes almost daily, and public transit riders see the changes a bit later. For those truly self motivated, the effect of higher gas prices affects all of us through the cost of transporting products for consumers to purchase.
> 
> ...



It's not just the price of oil. Gasoline is traded as a commodity by itself, and the price only bears a loose relationship to the price of oil. In addition, as JJT said, gas is traded in USD.

There are also a number of other factors. The change from winter to summer formulation means that there's less supply, but better weather also increases demand which drives up the price. Some refineries shut down over the change period for routine maintenance, which also cuts supply. As well, we don't produce much gas on our own, and are forced to buy the majority of our fuel from the US. 

Pipelines. Unless we get more of our own oil into the feedstock, we continue to pay a premium. 

Natural and man-made disasters. From a recent refinery fire, to lingering decreased output in the Gulf states, to a looming rail strike in Canada, these events add pressure to the price.

Vertical integration. Oil companies not only mine oil, but produce gas. Low oil prices undermine their profitability, so they raise the base price for fuel before it's traded on the open market. Low oil prices can have a paradoxical effect on gas prices.

Currency. The Canadian dollar has been the worst performing major currency against the USD, which takes us back to the first point.

Taxes. Governments love to tax - excise tax, provincial tax, municipal tax, carbon tax and finally GST/HST. Anywhere from 35-40 cents per liter before GST.


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## FJAG (30 Apr 2018)

Just for comparison purposes here's the component cost of gasoline in Canada as of last year:

https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2017/09-02whgslnprcsdffr-eng.html?=undefined&wbdisable=true

Roughly (it varies by province) oil is 33% of the cost, taxes 33% with the last 33% split between refining and marketing costs and profits.

In the US the figures are roughly here:

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=gasoline_factors_affecting_prices

where oil costs are 50%, taxes 19% and refining and marketing costs about 31%

Recently in the US I paid the equivalent of CAD0.83 per litre while gas back here in Ontario was roughly CAD1.20. About half of the difference was taxes; the rest is made up of some oil transport to Canadian refineries, and the rest a larger profit margin taken by the companies at the refining and marketing level.

I do wonder that there isn't more competition between the companies in a local region. Let's face it almost all the gas in Manitoba and Saskatchewan comes from the same Sask refineries (I was once involved in a polluted fuel case in Manitoba and every gas retailer used the same refinery and transport companies.) So the raw material, refinery and transport costs should be about the same at the local level. Retailers could adjust their profits margins to gain market share locally but--and to answer my own question above--they generally don't because there is no percentage for them in fighting price wars.

I sometimes wonder however why we whine so much for the price that we pay for gas when we are prepared to pay $1.00 for a liter of coke (or even worse for bottled water) where the costs include about $0.03 for the container, sugar, food colouring and flavour. The remaining $0.97 are bottling, transport, marketing and profits. It's even worse when you buy a Coke in a restaurant for $2.49 in a paper cup.

 :cheers:


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Apr 2018)

The BC government won't allow the pipelines required to get our country's resources  to market. Our grit government is giving grant money to foreign based anti oil protest groups while passing environmental updates for oil companies to jump hoops on. It'll serve the BC voters right if it hits $3.00/ ltr. Perhaps they'll think twice come next election. Both provincial and federal.


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## OldSolduer (30 Apr 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The BC government won't allow the pipelines required to get our country's resources  to market. Our grit government is giving grant money to foreign based anti oil protest groups while passing environmental updates for oil companies to jump hoops on. It'll serve the BC voters right if it hits $3.00/ ltr. Perhaps they'll think twice come next election. Both provincial and federal.



Never underestimate the power of “stupid”.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Apr 2018)

If it's any small consolation on prices. 
I was in Indianapolis last week.  They have seen their prices shoot up as well.  That being said, the average price seemed to be in the $2.70-2.80 per gallon range.  I wouldn't mind that.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Apr 2018)

[quote author=FJAG] 

I sometimes wonder however why we whine so much for the price that we pay for gas when we are prepared to pay $1.00 for a liter of coke (or even worse for bottled water) where the costs include about $0.03 for the container, sugar, food colouring and flavour. The remaining $0.97 are bottling, transport, marketing and profits. It's even worse when you buy a Coke in a restaurant for $2.49 in a paper cup.

 :cheers:
[/quote]

I'd say the difference is coke isn't a nessesity of life. Some people _ can_ get by without a vehicle but the majority of us cannot.


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Apr 2018)

The environmentalists in BC seem thrilled that gas prices are so high on the coast. Something about saving the planet. Some go as far to piously lecture the great unwashed that they should just buy a $40K electric car or ride a bike- certainly not options for everyone.

They might be less thrilled when the price of gas begins to effect food prices (and the price of everything else)- in effect, kicking off an inflationary cycle. 

The BC situation is an unholy mess of constrained supply caused by a lack of pipelines and refinery capacity; as well as active government policy to tax the crap out of petroleum.

If the tourism market collapses this summer in BC, a few people might start pointing fingers at various levels of government.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Apr 2018)

BC only has 2 refineries, one in Prince George with about 26,000 BD capacity and needing upgrades as I recall. The one in Vancouver (56,000bd) is just completing a 2 month off-line refurbishment and upgrade, once it is back on line, prices will drop a bit. However it can only currently get 40% of it's feedstock through the existing KinderMorgan pipeline, the rest of the feed stock has to be barged in from Cherry Point, Washington. BC Ferries is switching it's fleet slowly to NG from Diesel, which will go a long way to increasing the supply of diesel in the Lower Mainland, a C-class ferry takes about 2 tankers a week in fuel. 
We are currently reviewing a project in Prince Rupert that would bring in diesel from Canada, but outside of BC, mainly meant for bunkering ships, but that might create a new supplier for smaller vessels, which might help bring down fuel prices there. Several First Nations are looking at pipelines and refineries as potential revenue generators.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Apr 2018)

To all those who oppose pipelines and oil exploration. Think that over really hard while you enjoy all the benefits of modern living that fossil fuels gives you and your family. And you can add to that the government services you enjoy that are funded by oil revenues as well.


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## Rifleman62 (30 Apr 2018)

Other factors in the price are the metric system. In the US, gas may go up/down 0.02/0.03 cents a gallon. In Canada they go up 0.05/0.10 cents per liter which equates to 0.189/0.3785 per US gal. Nobody in the US would put up increases of that magnitude.

In the US, gas stations retail at different prices, even the same brand; in Canada it seems that the price of gas is the same throughout the city.

IMHO, I have always thought Cdns are complacent and allow ourselves to be bent over and done. That's why we pay exorbitant prices for everything. For example, vehicles, appliances, electronics, FOOD, etc. Why do we allow supply management? NAFTA, TPP, CETA etc negotiations "other countries brought up our anti-free trade “supply management” boards. Specifically, they are opposed to Canada's participation because of our protectionist approach on eggs, chicken, turkey, and dairy products". http://nationalpost.com/opinion/colby-cosh-canadas-dairy-cartel-the-unkillable-sacred-cow-made-of-other-literal-cows

I once priced out online a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro built in Oshawa, ON (subsequently 2016 production moved for the 6th generation to Lansing, Michigan - I wonder why Ontario?). Cost in Canada at a nearby Oshawa GM Dealership was $12,000 more than in Honolulu, Hawaii. Freight/PDI was $1900 in Oshawa and $900 in Honolulu.

An electric outlet at Home Depot Canada $20;, Home Depot US $10, less 10% military discount that HD won't do in Canada. Exact same item. Wrote to HD twice and just got the same answer - distances/suppy/treat all customers equally (equally screw).

P.S. I am fortunate to live in the US all Winter so I know the price differences.

P.P.S. Just got back to West Kelowna. The same huge lines of running vehicles (mainly trucks) waiting for coffee from Timmies. If you really want to save the environment, ban drive-throughs and coordinate traffic lights.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Apr 2018)

The other day gas was .85cad/ ltr across the border from me. Over here it was about $1.32cad/ltr. That's about a $50.00CAD difference on a fillup for my trucks. $20 buck border fee, total, for both trucks, I save $80 for a twenty minute trip.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Apr 2018)

http://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/business/the-great-pipeline-debate-why-isn-t-more-oil-refined-in-b-c-1.23285437

 Here’s where the economic and environmental arguments clash.

Those who want to ship Alberta oil from B.C. say being shut out of Asian markets costs Canada billions of dollars.

 That runs smack into the argument that shipping Alberta’s heavy oil from the West Coast is a disaster waiting to happen. Opponents say an ocean spill of diluted bitumen would be far more damaging than one of diesel, gasoline or other refined products.

The obvious question, then: Why not solve the conflict by refining oil here instead of shipping it abroad?

Because the business case can’t be made, say some. Because B.C. has enviro-protested itself out of the game, say others. Because Canada got left behind in the refinery race years ago and is too far back to catch up.

Pfft, says Victoria’s David Black, who continues to push a proposal for a north coast refinery that he argues would address both the economic and environmental concerns.

OK, first, let’s look at the status quo.

Canada has just 14 fuel refineries today (though a 15th, the Sturgeon facility near Edmonton, is gradually going into production). That compares with the 1970s, when the Great White North had 40 refineries before oil-price shocks prompted a switch to other sources of energy — electricity, natural gas — and forced automakers to produce cars with better fuel economy. As a result, demand fell and smaller refineries closed, says Natural Resources Canada.

Analyst Dan McTeague of Gasbuddy.com also cites moves — acquisitions and mergers leading to monopolies — by Big Oil, whom asleep-at-the-switch Ottawa allowed to concentrate refining in the U.S. at the expense of Canadian fuel security.

Still, Canada actually refines more petroleum products than it consumes. The Prairies and Eastern Canada are largely self-sufficient. The two refineries in Newfoundland and New Brunswick have far more capacity than is needed for domestic use.

The western refineries depend on the oilpatch, but the eastern ones rely largely on crude from Atlantic Canada and abroad. Even if they could get access to Alberta crude — in 2017 TransCanada Pipelines gave up on the proposed Energy East line linking Alberta to New Brunswick — the easternmost refineries aren’t set up to handle heavy oil from Wild Rose Country.

B.C. is the outlier among the provinces, consuming almost three times as much fuel — 200,000 barrels per day, according to the Canadian Fuels Association — as it has the capacity to refine.

The province used to have seven refineries but now has just two, a 55,000-barrels-per-day facility in Burnaby and a 15,000 BPD one operated by Husky in Prince George. Chevron sold its Burnaby operation, which produces gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, to Alberta-based Parkland in 2017.

About half of the refined products B.C. uses travel from Alberta: 50,000 BPD via the existing Trans Mountain line and a similar amount by rail and truck, the fuels association says.

The rest, 30,000 barrels a day, including biofuels, comes from beyond Canada’s borders, mostly from Washington state’s five refineries. There are four within 60 kilometres of Victoria — the Phillips 66 refinery at Ferndale, near Bellingham, the nearby BP refinery at Cherry Point, and the Shell and Tesoro refineries at Anacortes — with a combined capacity of 590,000 BPD.

Note that none of the product from Washington’s refineries is shipped overseas; almost 90 per cent is sold in the U.S., the rest in Canada. Also note that just over half the product travelling through the existing 300,000 BPD Trans Mountain pipe is crude that gets diverted to the Washington refineries via the Puget Sound spur line from Sumas. Effectively, they’re buying our oil and selling it back, refined, at a premium.

So why not build a refinery to service B.C.? Because the North American market as a whole is already over capacity. “We have too many refineries,” says Brian Ahearn, vice-president of the fuels association. Demand for gasoline and diesel is flatlining or declining. Vehicles are more fuel-efficient. Bio-fuels, all of which are imported (most renewable diesel comes from Singapore) have made inroads.

The association’s website puts it this way: “Proposals exist to build modern, high-efficiency refinery operations on the West Coast. The price tag: upward of $15 billion each. The payback period: 25 to 30 years. Although petroleum is expected to remain a key transportation fuel for at least four more decades, an investment of $15 billion comes with significant risks. Which is why there is no rush of investors, private or public.”

Gasbuddy’s McTeague, a former member of Parliament, mentions other factors, including the political climate: The “shenanigans” of pipeline opponents have made Vancouver Island, Vancouver and the coast a “no-go zone” for petro-investment. “Unfortunately, we now have a tattoo branded on our communities.”

Also, when Canada goes out of sync with the U.S. in penalizing refineries for missing hard-to-reach emissions targets, the economics chase business south of the border, he says. McTeague wouldn’t be surprised to see more Canadian refineries close.

Even without the political/environmental hurdles, the business case isn’t great, he says. “The economics of building refineries are not the best.” There’s not enough of an internal market, or enough of a distribution network in place, to warrant the investment. (Note that Alberta’s new refinery went ahead only with provincial government guarantees.)

OK, the domestic market isn’t great, but what about the foreign market? The whole point of the Trans Mountain expansion, adding 590,000 BPD capacity to the existing 300,000, is to allow greater access to the Pacific Rim.

Trans Mountain itself says market conditions will determine where — B.C., Washington, California, Asia — the heavy oil from the new pipeline ends up, but most is expected to go “for export off the dock.” The industry has its eyes across the Pacific.

“The opportunity is Asia and India,” Ahearn says.

If that opportunity exists (pipeline opponents doubt it does) is it to sell those countries refined product, or just unrefined diluted bitumen? If it’s the former, there would be competition from the big refineries on the Gulf Coast and elsewhere in the U.S. that are already rigged with the expensive cokers and other gizmos that are needed to handle heavy oil (heavy oil might be expensive to process, but it’s more versatile than light, tight shale oil).

That’s not to mention competition from the refineries in Asia itself. India, which plans to increase its refining capacity by 77 per cent over 12 years, has one complex whose capacity is 60 per cent that of all of Canada.

“The question is: Can a Canadian refinery make refined product, ship it over there and land it at a competitive price?” Ahearn asks.

David Black believes the answer is “yes.” Since 2012, the Victoria businessman has been pushing a proposal for a refinery in northern B.C., one that he believes would allay many of the fears surrounding the shipment of diluted bitumen from the coast.

Sited 13 kilometres north of Kitimat, the Kitimat Clean refinery, when fully built out, would be one of the largest refineries in the world. When announced, the goal was to process 400,000 barrels of pure bitumen from Alberta’s oilsands into 460,000 barrels of gasoline, jet fuel and diesel fuel, plus byproducts such as butane, propane and sulfur pellets. The price tag has ranged from $22 billion down to, more recently, $18 billion.

Actually, it’s lower than that, since these days the focus is on building the first phase of the project: an $8.5-billion facility with a capacity of 125,000 BPD.
It’s being championed as the world’s cleanest refinery for three reasons.

First, shipping refined fuels instead of dilbit means there would be no fear of tar-like goop sinking and paving the ocean floor after a tanker spill (though pipeline proponents scoff at that spectre).
Second, plans include processing technology that would cut greenhouse gases by two-thirds when compared with other heavy oil refineries.

Finally, proponents say Kitimat Clean wouldn’t require a pipeline (it better not, because Justin Trudeau has already killed the controversial proposal to build the Northern Gateway line from Alberta to Kitimat). Instead, the idea is to pipe the dilbit from the oilpatch to another Alberta site, then turn it into dry pellets by sucking the diluent from it. The pellets would be shipped to the refinery in hoppers by train. Any spill could be cleaned up with a backhoe, just like coal.

The advantage of Kitimat’s location is its proximity to Asia. Proponents say it would take a tanker doing 12 knots three weeks to cross the ocean from Kitimat to Shanghai. The same slow boat to China would take nine weeks from Houston, Texas. That’s in addition to the month it would take for the oil to ooze through a pipeline from Alberta to the Gulf Coast. By comparison, a train could carry bitumen from Alberta to Kitimat in a day.

That’s a big deal, as shipping costs are one reason Alberta oil sells for less than similar oils go for elsewhere.

That leads to another obvious question: Why not built the refinery in Alberta instead of in B.C.? The answer: the cost.

To be affordable, a refinery would have to be built in a high-tech, low-wage country like China, Taiwan, Malaysia or South Korea, then shipped in gigantic modules for assembly on the West Coast. To illustrate that point, compare the estimated $8.5-billion cost of phase one of the 125,000 BPD Kitimat Clean refinery with the $9.7 billion spent on construction of the new 50,000 BPD bitumen-to-diesel Sturgeon facility in Alberta.

Where does all that leave us? Waiting. B.C. politicans have expressed enthusiasm for Kitimat Clean, but the federal Liberals — the ones with the power — haven’t. The project needs petroleum producers to sign off on it, too.


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Apr 2018)

Good article' Colin.  

I heard an interview recent with Dan McTeague on a radio call in show. It was extremely irritating to hear caller after caller disagree with him, based solely on misinformation or a "documentary" they once watched- stuff that is easily varifiable with 30 seconds of Internet searching.  Many people, environmentalists especially, live in blissful denial on just how petroleum dependent the Canadian economy is.

Another thing that I have just about had it with, is the smug moralizing of electric car owners. It is great they can afford one. I cannot- at least not one that can carry my whole family. Since they don't buy gasoline, they aren't contributing to the taxes that maintain roads. Meanwhile, I get to spend north of $400.00/month on gasoline, a significant portion of which is tax, to give them free driving.

I am being driven into energy poverty by zealots who would sacrifice the entire Canadian economy for no noticeable change in the overall planetary carbon dioxide output. I am getting angry and I do not think that I am alone.


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## kratz (30 Apr 2018)

[quote author=SeaKingTacco]
I am being driven into energy poverty by zealots who would sacrifice the entire Canadian economy for no noticeable change in the overall planetary carbon dioxide output. I am getting angry and I do not think that I am alone.
[/quote]

I agree with you SKT. If governments shifted their focus and started taxing power consumption at the same rates they do for gas, 
to respond to driver's shift from relying on gas cars, I'd be living on the street. 
My home is electric heat because it's cheaper than oil and there is no option for natural gas.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Apr 2018)

I'll see if Im can dig up a picture I seen.

Electric car with a trailer which held a gas powered generator that was recharging the car.

*didn't find it but this is a smug replacement.


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## larry Strong (30 Apr 2018)

Cheers
Larry


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## FJAG (30 Apr 2018)

Colin P said:
			
		

> . . .
> To be affordable, a refinery would have to be built in a high-tech, low-wage country like China, Taiwan, Malaysia or South Korea, then shipped in gigantic modules for assembly on the West Coast. To illustrate that point, compare the estimated $8.5-billion cost of phase one of the 125,000 BPD Kitimat Clean refinery with the $9.7 billion spent on construction of the new 50,000 BPD bitumen-to-diesel Sturgeon facility in Alberta.
> . . .


Excellent article Colin

The cost of major chemical processing plant construction hit home to me when I was representing a large anhydrous ammonia fertilizer manufacturer located in Brandon, MB. They had a project for a major expansion of their facilities and compared the costs of building new with other options. The less expensive option that they chose consisted of dissembling an existing and mothballed plant in Italy, shipping it to Houston for refurbishment and then shipping it to Brandon for assembly. Not unsurprisingly most of the contractors, sub trades and workers came from south of the border.

 :cheers:


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## FJAG (30 Apr 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> I agree with you SKT. If governments shifted their focus and started taxing power consumption at the same rates they do for gas,
> to respond to driver's shift from relying on gas cars, I'd be living on the street.
> My home is electric heat because it's cheaper than oil and there is no option for natural gas.



Where do you live? Not Ontario that's for sure. We used the be the capital of cheap hydro and nuclear energy but no longer. Policies here have set exorbitant rates for wind energy development which are creeping across the entire system. Many manufacturers are looking elsewhere because commercial energy rates are higher than residential ones. I don't disagree with the fact that there are other jurisdictions that are worse off (see attached charts) but I already pay 13% HST on my energy bill. That's enough tax, thank you very much.

https://www.hydro.mb.ca/accounts_and_services/rates/pdf/survey-of-canadian-electricity-bills.pdf

 [cheers]


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Apr 2018)

I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.

3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.

Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.


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## George Wallace (30 Apr 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.
> 
> 3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.
> 
> Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.



Wood stoves have been one solution ......where they have not been banned.


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## jollyjacktar (30 Apr 2018)

We ended up going full electric as we couldn't replace the pellet stove once it became too knackered.  The hassles and expense made it impossible to contemplate.  Now, we have heat pumps and ETS as well as solar hot water.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## FJAG (30 Apr 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I pay nearly 200% tax on the natural gas that I buy from Fortis.
> 
> 3 levels of government, all putting their "green taxes" on something that I need to heat my house.
> 
> Luckily, I have a very efficient furnace, but still.



I just compared a sample mainland Fortis bill to my Union Gas bill and to put it politely it's hard to compare. I buy gas per cubic meter while you do by the gigajoule. (apparently 1 gigajoule = 26.9 cu metres) Your gigajoule costs $1.55 while my cubic meter costs appx $0.13 (or $3.50 for a gigajoule). So off hand I pay more for the actual gas here. After that everything goes to hell in a handbasket once you consider fixed charges, delivery, storage etc. 

My only tax is HST which is 13% but I know that there is a hidden cap and trade piece of cr*p which is appx just under 10% of the bill.  You do seem to have several government levies (municipal, carbon, clean energy and GST but apparently no express PST like we have included in our HST) Roughly 10% of my bill is the actual cost of gas. Everything else is an add on. The big difference that I see is that your basic charge is half of mine while your delivery charge is twice mine.

If you look just at the cost of gas v taxes, I paid around $10.00 taxes on $20.00 of gas while the sample Fortis bill had $16.00 taxes on $10.00 of gas. Interestingly when I looked at a sample Fortis bill for Revelstoke, there was $65.00 of taxes on $198.00 of gas. (Revelstoke's cost of gas was $11.00/gJ as opposed to $1.55/GJ on the mainland - wow)

It's all the other charges that kill us. I used to laugh (hysterically) when I lived in Blenheim where my delivery charge for hydro exceeded my cost of electricity and I had a wind turbine that stood clearly visible to me less than a kilometer away. 

 :cheers:


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## Occam (30 Apr 2018)




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## Brad Sallows (1 May 2018)

>just buy a $40K electric car

I did a "back of the envelope" calculation based on some online figures people have calculated for EV mileage and my Hydro bills (and there is no electrical heating), and determined that 24,000 km per year (what I used to routinely do) would mean increasing my electricity consumption by about 90% - 200% (depending on efficiency of the EV).  Conclusion: a widespread shift of merely personal transportation (ie. disregarding commercial / industrial transportation) would require a massive increase in electricity generation.  For an illustration: Energy flows in Canada (choose "2013" if it isn't the default).  Notice the current contribution by "Wind and Solar".

The BC government has a curious notion of energy policy.  They want to move away from oil consumption, but wanted to shut down the Site C hydroelectric dam.  They want more revenue for capital funding for transit projects, but removed all the bridge tolls in the lower mainland.  They want to contribute to [reducing] worldwide carbon dioxide emissions, but resist doing everything possible to expedite natural gas exports to Asia so that fewer coal-fired thermal plants are needed.

BC as a whole deserves to endure a period of major gasoline price increases.  Our current collective attitude is extraordinarily selfish: it is OK to ship in enough to satisfy our needs - refueling the jets at YVR we use to travel abroad, refueling the ships that bring our fair trade organic coffee, etc - by whatever means, but not to transport it across BC to other export markets.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 May 2018)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >just buy a $40K electric car
> 
> I did a "back of the envelope" calculation based on some online figures people have calculated for EV mileage and my Hydro bills (and there is no electrical heating), and determined that 24,000 km per year (what I used to routinely do) would mean increasing my electricity consumption by about 90% - 200% (depending on efficiency of the EV).  Conclusion: a widespread shift of merely personal transportation (ie. disregarding commercial / industrial transportation) would require a massive increase in electricity generation.  For an illustration: Energy flows in Canada (choose "2013" if it isn't the default).  Notice the current contribution by "Wind and Solar".
> 
> ...



No Brad. There is an extremely vocal minority that are holding the rest of us hostage.

This has got to stop.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (1 May 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> No Brad. There is an extremely vocal minority that are holding the rest of us hostage.
> 
> This has got to stop.



Really SKT: Can you indicate any government policy being rammed down our throats that doesn't fit that bill?

I used to think that the "government" was serious in using things like carbon taxes and gas taxes to actually achieve their GHG emissions reduction target. Silly me. Now that you see the economists coming out with the actual figures of the taxation levels that would be required to achieve that objective and how far below we are - even though highly taxed - I cannot help but think that it is the governments that are on drugs: The drugs of high taxes revenues (knowing it will not change behaviour) for their side pet projects at the expense of not openly taxing the citizenry for those pet projects. If people could see how much they are "taxed" to provide all those pet projects, they may rebel at election time so they rather hide the taxes. 

P.S.: Most people today don't remember that, but one of the primary driver behind PM Mulroney's GST was that items in Canada were sold to consumers filled with various hidden "excise" type taxes, included in the price but hard to track. The GST eliminated all those hidden taxes and forced them in the open. This created pressure to either reduce the taxes, or at the very least not increase it. It's what let PM Harper reduce the tax by two points and cut down on government spending: People could immediately see the connection between the two.

Imagine what would happen if your gas stations were forced to advertise their prices as follows:

Regular: 0.85+ taxes
Taxes: 0.42

I think many people would get on the government's asses to explain why the tax is so high. (I think the same thing could be done for  good measure with alcoholic beverages ;D - I positively hate the concept of "sin" taxes).


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## dapaterson (1 May 2018)

This gets into Canadians and taxes writ large.  Canadians mostly refuse to pay their own way.  They want massive government services and no taxes to pay for them.  They want to live in the sprawling suburbs, and not pay the cost of infrastructure installation or maintenance necessary to sustain it.  They want 24/7 access to a doctor at no cost if they have a hangnail, but don't want to pay GST.

Taxes are high because politicians of all stripes make promises and deliver on the backs of our children and grandchildren.  See: Homer Simpson in "The Garbage Man Can".


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## Colin Parkinson (1 May 2018)

and the ones that live in the city want everyone else pay for their transit and take their garbage. Oh yea don't disturb the wilderness you rural types.
t


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## Edward Campbell (1 May 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> This gets into Canadians and taxes writ large.  Canadians mostly refuse to pay their own way.  They want massive government services and no taxes to pay for them.  They want to live in the sprawling suburbs, and not pay the cost of infrastructure installation or maintenance necessary to sustain it.  They want 24/7 access to a doctor at no cost if they have a hangnail, but don't want to pay GST.
> 
> Taxes are high because politicians of all stripes make promises and deliver on the backs of our children and grandchildren.  See: Homer Simpson in "The Garbage Man Can".




 :goodpost:

That is, pretty much, all that needs to be said. Prices from refiners (and therefore, profits to oil companies) are within pennies per litre of one another on each side of the US border ... the differences are  found in taxes.

Don't like taxes? Then YOU must decide that you and I and our families and friends and neighbours will do without services to which far, far too many of us _*believe*_ we are entitled ~ and _*beliefs*_ in the utility of government programmes are close to _religious *beliefs*_ in both the intensity with which they are held and the lack of foundation for them.


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## ModlrMike (1 May 2018)

I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?


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## Brad Sallows (1 May 2018)

Three years ago the BC government held a referendum to test whether residents of the lower mainland would accept a half-cent PST increase to fund transit.  It was rejected, but not overwhelmingly.

Translink (here in BC) has all sorts of ideas for raising revenue: property taxes, vehicle/licence taxes, various fees (tolls, mileage, time-of-day access), fare increases, additional taxes on pretty much anything (not just fuels).


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## Fishbone Jones (1 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?



I'm not worried. We'll never go full electric. Not in our lifetimes anyway.


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## Blackadder1916 (1 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?



It is easy to conflate the response (or lack of response) of any government (regardless of stripe) with a lack of imagination, intelligence or ingenuity simply because we dislike any particular party or even the notion of governments in general.  However, I don't think that it will be much of an exercise to develop a new public funding model for self-user transportation infrastructure once (or if) electric vehicles become the predominant item on the roads.  Remember, back a little over a hundred years ago, transportation was converting from one form of vehicle power to another (i.e. horse power to HORSEPOWER vroom, vroom) and the taxation model developed quite easily to accommodate the reality.  We, in North America, relied exclusively on a pay as you go, use based system tying the taxation to fuel purchase.  Elsewhere in the world, their response was a little different, generating the funds by a combination of an annual flat tax on the vehicle (road tax) as well as also taxing fuel purchases.  If you are worried that governments (of whatever level) won't be able to differentiate the consumption of electricity between that used to recharge a vehicle with that of household use, it really doesn't matter.  There are any number of taxation models that could be used to target road users, e.g. annual road tax based on size of vehicle or power generated or mileage in the previous year, etc, etc.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?



Apparently the leap in fuel efficiency of vehicles in the 2000's was not foreseen and governments were shocked to find the predicted revenue from fuel sales did not meet expectations.


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## Jarnhamar (1 May 2018)

I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want". 
My source is a  guy person who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.


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## George Wallace (1 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want".
> My source is a  guy person who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.



I don't know if I should  :rofl:  or not, as this is so  :facepalm: on his and his Finance Minister's ....Crap....His whole Government's part.


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## jollyjacktar (1 May 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I've heard "The high gas prices are exactly what we want".
> My source is a  guy person people who can explain quantum computers so he's really smart.


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## Infanteer (1 May 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the government's response when electric vehicles replace petrol engines on the road. How are we to pay for road maintenance when the bulk of that ostensibly comes from fuel taxes? Do we charge electric vehicle owners with a tax for using a service they don't pay for, or do we increase the tax on fuel to generate more revenue against a shrinking pool?



Simple.  Tools for road use/entering the city, a la London.


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## jollyjacktar (2 May 2018)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Simple.  Tools for road use/entering the city, a la London.


Surly you mean, tolls for the tools using the road/entering London.


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## Infanteer (2 May 2018)

Yeah, that's what I meant.  And don't call me Surely.


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## Journeyman (2 May 2018)

Actually he called you surly..._and_  mean. Apparently you're perceived as one of the grumpy ones.  


Welcome.   ;D


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## kratz (31 May 2018)

I agree with this one protestor. There's no true support for anything these days.

ref: CTV.ca



> Gas price protest stalls when only one demonstrator shows up
> 
> CTV Montreal
> Published Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:11AM EDT
> ...


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## sandyson (10 Oct 2018)

A View from 'down-under'
"Kiwis are among the highest consumers of fuel in the world per capita, burning through around 672 litres of fuel a year.
In percent of income spent of fuel."
"The only countries to get worse deals than New Zealand are Brazil (2.8 per cent), Saudi Arabia (2.87 per cent), Greece (2.95 per cent), *Canada* (3.01 per cent), South Africa (3.64 per cent) and Mexico (3.94 per cent)."
from https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12139974

(Latest local prices: Sherbrooke QC $1.344/l but at Derby Line Vermont yesterday it was $1.03 CAD/l.  The price had recently gone up .05/gal.)


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## Rifleman62 (10 Oct 2018)

Price drop in Kelowna, BC to 140.9 from 144.9. Prior, went up 0.50 cents, converted to one US gallon. If the price went up that much in one day in the US there would be a revolution.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Oct 2018)

Also in Malaysia where the price is fixed by the government, my wife's family was shocked that it could change 8 cents in a day. I calculated by ensuring I fill up Wednesday/Thursday evening that I could save $70-100 a year over the average price by catching the low points.

Interesting I learned that Vancouver Airport almost ran out of fuel last summer and needs a better fuel supply system to support it's expansion. Currently they use 75 large tanker trucks with pups every day to meet demand.


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## larry Strong (10 Oct 2018)

Been 125.9 pretty well all summer here....Innisfail Ab.

Cheers
Larry


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Oct 2018)

They are predicting a 3cent increase in BC as thanks to the NG pipeline explosion near Prince George, since the refineries use NG to refine with and it's now being rationed.


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## MilEME09 (11 Oct 2018)

$134.9 in Calgary when I filled up yesterday, I feel like we need more refineries....


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## a_majoor (4 Nov 2019)

Looks like the Grasping hand of government is going to get twisted in another arm wrestling match with Adam Smith's Invisible Hand. A big push in production by a multitude of suppliers will bring prices down, providing relief for consumers and consternation for nations like Russia and Iran which depend on petrodollars for a large portion of theiur revenues.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/03/business/energy-environment/oil-supply.html



> Flood of Oil Is Coming, Complicating Efforts to Fight Global Warming
> By Clifford Krauss
> Nov. 3, 2019
> 
> ...



The article is fairly long and has the usual screed about global warming, but the analysis of where and when the production will hit the markets is interesting and useful information.


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