# M113 / AVGP / Bison Driver "weather protection?"



## Steve 1 RNFLDR (3 Mar 2014)

Howdy.

Anybody who has done any winter road moves in a Bison is well-acquainted with the Arctic blast through the driver's hatch which is directed at the crew commander.  

A month or so ago, I heard somebody mention that the M113 had something like a kayak skirt to fit around the driver; would anybody be able to provide me further information or ideas on how I might reduce the draft from the driver's hatch, other than force-feeding my driver doughnuts and fried chicken?


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## Franko (3 Mar 2014)

I drove M113, Grizley, Bison, coyote, Cougar and never saw something like that issued. It was made by someone.

Wear your winter gear and mukluks and you'll be fine.

Regards


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## Kat Stevens (3 Mar 2014)

I had one of the old heavy rubber ponchos that I secured around the hatch ring with bungies.  It was a prototype idea that lasted one exercise.  It worked, but was a major pain in the ass to set up each time we moved the vehicle, and made it tough to see all around me.


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## medicineman (3 Mar 2014)

Like NH said - dress for the weather.  Sometimes the driver's windscreen on the Bison helped me a bit as CC, but cold weather gear and a functional heater went a long way...I had seen guys do what Kat suggested with the ponchos, but it is a pain to set up all the time. 

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Mar 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I had one of the old heavy rubber ponchos that I secured around the hatch ring with bungies.  It was a prototype idea that lasted one exercise.  It worked, but was a major pain in the ass to set up each time we moved the vehicle, and made it tough to see all around me.



I used to do that with my Ferret, without the bungees though.


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## Journeyman (3 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I used to do that with my Ferret, without the bungees though.


Obviously -- elastic hadn't been invented way back then.


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## my72jeep (3 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I used to do that with my Ferret, without the bungees though.


didn't you use sliced up inter tubes back then?  :stirpot:


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## BernDawg (3 Mar 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I had one of the old heavy rubber ponchos that I secured around the hatch ring with bungies.  It was a prototype idea that lasted one exercise.  It worked, but was a major pain in the *** to set up each time we moved the vehicle, and made it tough to see all around me.


I've seen drivers do this before too.

I did see a canopy once in the field, I believe it was an Arty carrier (M113) and the driver had a Plexiglas canopy that clamped down over the hatch. We were all gob-smacked when we saw it! Didn't get any pics nor have I seen one since but I swear it was real.... Sort of a helicopter bubble with a flat windshield at the front complete with windshield wiper.. We were all bundled up (I was driving my TOW carrier)  and the guy driving the canopy carrier wasn't even wearing a jacket, just his regular combats, beret and head set... under glass of course.. ;-)


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## Danjanou (3 Mar 2014)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> didn't you use sliced up inter tubes back then?  :stirpot:



Probably animal sinews, and when he said Ferret I don't think he meant the scout car  >:whiteflag:


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Mar 2014)

I have seen pictures (and might have some at home) of the Centurion driver cover, I have seen both official and unofficial driver screens  for the Ferret driver and homemade screens for the commander. have also seen a hood/window thing for the M113 driver, complete with windshield wiper. For the LAV, etc don't they have a plex screen that hatch fits over forming a seal, but improving the drivers vision?


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## MJP (3 Mar 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> For the LAV, etc don't they have a plex screen that hatch fits over forming a seal, but improving the drivers vision?



Yea, I don't remember how well it seals but it is there.  Usually only used administratively though.  The CC has one as well, again usually only used administratively. 

I don't know if it improves the driver's ability to see around them but all my drivers have said that they had better vision hatches down.


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Mar 2014)

Poor quality picture but this one from when they roamed the streets of Toronto when Mel asked for the Army to help shovel out......






Jan.14, 1999--A Canadian Forces Bison armoured personnel carrier drives into the Toronto downtown core Friday morning. …

Edited to add a larger pic.


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## Michael OLeary (3 Mar 2014)

With the M113s we had in 2RCR in the early 1980s, there was a semi-circular plexi windshied that was designed to mount around the front half of the driver's hatch. It was a simple arced sheet of plexi, about 10 mm thick that extended upwards about to 45 cm in the centre. It helped to break the wind, but if the was any precipitation (rain, slow, sleet, cats & dogs), the crew commander was often out of his hatch trying to act as a windshield wiper for the driver. I doubt many of these still exist today.

For heat control around the crew commander, it helped to arrange a tarp or ground sheets from floor to ceiling extending from the sidewall behind the driver, around the crew commander's seat post and then to the right hand wall. This cut down the space the heater was trying to warm and increased the chances of having some of the heat get to the driver.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Mar 2014)

Here is the Ferret's


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Mar 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Here is the Ferret's



The driver's screen was standard issue.

We had no turret on ours. Just a big open hole.


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## Danjanou (3 Mar 2014)

non turret version


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Mar 2014)

The Malaysians built versions with a raised hard top, with and without turrets. They weren't shy about modifying things as you can see with this Lynx and Ferret turret.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Mar 2014)

If you look closely at the Bison/Coyote windshield there are two holes for tubes near the top. This is for the full protection kit that I have not seen in a long time. It had a small frame that extended rearward with some cheap fabric to protect and enclose the driver.

This is one of those things you never think to get a photo of until about 20 years later eh?


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## Franko (4 Mar 2014)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> If you look closely at the Bison/Coyote windshield there are two holes for tubes near the top. This is for the full protection kit that I have not seen in a long time. It had a small frame that extended rearward with some cheap fabric to protect and enclose the driver.
> 
> This is one of those things you never think to get a photo of until about 20 years later eh?



Saw one kit in 1989 on my D&M course. It was in horrible shape and I haven't seen one since. Pretty much useless especially when you may have to button up or dismount at any time.

Regards


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## Steve 1 RNFLDR (4 Mar 2014)

The canopy for the bison windshield?  We've got loads of 'em in our TN stores.  Most in fairly new condition, with frames.  They don't do bugger-all for the aforementioned wind whistling past the bottom half of the crew commander, though.


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## eme411 (6 Mar 2014)

The M-113 windshield was very interesting , you drive into the sun and the whole world in front of you vanished, never mind the wind I need to see , that windshield came off real fast,


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## larry Strong (15 May 2014)

Not wishing to start a new thread, I am looking for a couple pictures of the 113 with the ACAV gun tub that showed up in Croatia around 1993.



Thanks
Larry


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## BernDawg (25 Sep 2014)

Kind of a necro-post but I haven;t been around in a while.. Try here for pics;
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/apcs/armouredpersonnelcarriers.htm


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## cmpman (4 Jan 2015)

BernDawg said:
			
		

> I did see a canopy once in the field, I believe it was an Arty carrier (M113) and the driver had a Plexiglas canopy that clamped down over the hatch. We were all gob-smacked when we saw it! Didn't get any pics nor have I seen one since but I swear it was real.... Sort of a helicopter bubble with a flat windshield at the front complete with windshield wiper.. We were all bundled up (I was driving my TOW carrier)  and the guy driving the canopy carrier wasn't even wearing a jacket, just his regular combats, beret and head set... under glass of course.. ;-)



That well could have been me back in the day here in Shilo. We used to do this with the M113s when I was with 2VP in Winnipeg as well. The bubble was actually the cover for the M577 ARV. As mechanics, we would order it on the work order, then adapt it with a piece of plywood to fit onto the hatch ring of the carrier. The windshield had a defroster and as well we either adapted Iltis wipers, or used the original US type wiper motor that came with them. Some of the guys would go a bit further and install a sun visor as well. 

While the bubble helped a lot, just as important was to block the engine from drawing it's air form the crew compartment. No heater was going to pump out as much air as a 6V53 would draw. There was a small vent located by the driver's right leg. You had to pull out a cable to partially block it, then insert a chip bag or something to totally block it. 

The bubbles were over 1K each, not including the accessories. They were also easily broken. Unfortunately there were never enough that they would make it out for everyone. 

As a mechanic, I would often pull up to a M113 casualty where they were in full AFV winter gear with balaclavas and icicles hanging down from the eyelashes and mustache. I almost felt guilty being in the beret and combat shirt.

Officially, the M113s were issued with windscreens designed and built by 202 workshop. They could be described as marginal at best.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jan 2015)

_"Officially, the M113s were issued with windscreens designed and built by 202 workshop. They could be described as marginal at best."_

Were you talking the windscreens or 202 workshops when you said "_They could be described as marginal at best_"?

 8)


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## GK .Dundas (5 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> _"Officially, the M113s were issued with windscreens designed and built by 202 workshop. They could be described as marginal at best."_
> 
> Were you talking the windscreens or 202 workshops when you said "_They could be described as marginal at best_"?
> 
> 8)


  Either or ................... :nod:


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