# Regrets on Entry Plans



## tumbling_dice (2 Nov 2008)

Alright, hopefully I won't kick over a hornets nest with this thread.  I am currently in Grade 12 and from what I've read have the ability to be accepted to RMC, Civvie U and was have received acceptance to the University of Victoria.  I want to do Mechanical Engineering and will likely join as a MARS officer (although MSEO or Pilot are also possibilities).  Anyway, I wanted to know from people with experience if they have any regrets on their entry plan. For example, has any DEO or Civvie U ever wished they'd gone to RMC or ever had a point in their career where they were disadvantaged by not going to RMC or have any RMC students wished they'd gone to Civvie U for a more academic education, more fun, etc. (Not saying that RMC isn't fun or academic, I honestly don't know, if I did I wouldn't be asking).  Suffice to say I would like to know what in your mind, after your experience, is the best entry plan or does it really not matter at all. (On paper is doesn't matter but I'm looking for reality).  In order to try and focus this topic I'm going to only ask for personal accounts not second-hand knowledge and not opinions on how the entry plans could be changed (there are already numerous threads on that).

Note: I am not being lazy and hoping somebody will answer my questions so I don't have to do research, I've already read all 26 pages of the RMC thread. I'm also not asking someone to make a decision for me, I just want to ask experienced people about their experience.


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## SupersonicMax (2 Nov 2008)

Allright, I went ROTP, RMC, Mechanical Engineering, Pilot.  I'll try to give you my side of the story.



			
				tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> Anyway, I wanted to know from people with experience if they have any regrets on their entry plan.



Regrets?  No, definately not.  However, if I had to do it again, I would go CiviU for reasons I'll state later.  HOWEVER, my time at RMC was extremely valuable and I made really really good friends.  It sucked while I was there, but it's nice to be from there.



			
				tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> For example, has any DEO or Civvie U ever wished they'd gone to RMC or ever had a point in their career where they were disadvantaged by not going to RMC or have any RMC students wished they'd gone to Civvie U for a more academic education, more fun, etc.



I'll answer the academic and fun thing.  Academics at RMC are probably some of the best you can have.  Very small student to teacher ratio (we were a grand total of 50 in my Mech Eng year, 8 of which were French, 42 were English.  So, we were 8 in my class.  You have a question?  Knock on the teacher's door and ask away.  No going through the TA.  We have some of the best Prof Cadre IMHO.  I had my Aircraft Performance course given by a Flight Test Engineer (Lt Col) that went to Empire Flight Test School in UK and did some testings on the Hornets at AETE.  Can't get better than that, really.  As for fun, we took it as Work Hard, Play Hard.  Often, the Military Cadre would take the fun away, but we always found a way to have fun anyways.  

Now, do I think that going through RMC gives an advantage?  I don't think so.  In the end, that's how YOU perform that will affect your career.  I know some extremely sharp CivyU and I know some extremely lousy RMC guys.  The only advantage it gives you is when you go on course, you know most of the people already.



			
				tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> Suffice to say I would like to know what in your mind, after your experience, is the best entry plan or does it really not matter at all. (On paper is doesn't matter but I'm looking for reality).



You know, it depends what you want.  Going through RMC sucked.  I won't lie to you.  However, it put things into perspective. I learned not to complain so much. When I went on my Basic Flying Training and the only 'drill' I had to do was standing at 'attention' before entering the instructor's lounge, I didn't think it was that bad.  Most CivyUs though it was outrageous.  It was a hard go, especially in Engineering.  It sucks you're not on your own schedule for 4 years, you can't really do your homeworks when you want, you do them when you have time.  You need to keep your room tidy and your squadron lines tidy.  You have more classes than a regular Engineering program.  It's more busy.  In retrospect, I learned a lot going through RMC, not only on the military level (actually, the military stuff we learned there that was actually usefull after grad was minimal), but in the personnal level.  I learned how to manage my time really well, I learned my limits (how little time can I spend studying and still do well?), learned to have more than 1 thing on the go and still manage to get through all.  I do not regret my choice, however if I had to do it again, I would go CivyU.

I know it's probably hard with my answer to make your mind, but in the end, it's what you want to take out of it.  

Cheers


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## tumbling_dice (3 Nov 2008)

Thanks a lot Max, and your English is excellent by the way, hopefully after SLT by French will be comparable.  Anyone else, feel free to put into you two cents.


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## Strike (3 Nov 2008)

I'll echo Max's comments.  The biggest thing you get from RMC is time management skills.  This can come in especially useful when you get to your phase training which can be compared to drinking from a fire hose.  The student to teacher ratio is second to none and, especially on the engineering side, you will find that your thesis will likely have very practical applications which may very well be carried out over several years by different classes.  Mine was in fact used on a national level in the clean-up of the DEW line sites.

Sure, there are more freedoms at civvie U.  But if you've spent 4 yrs making your bed every morning, carrying out parades, doing military training, AND being ready for inspections, these are all a fewer things that you have to worry about learning when you get to your phase training.  It will allow you the time to actually focus on your studying.


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## Marshall (3 Nov 2008)

I am planning to attend RMC for 09-10 too. I briefly considered a Civilian Uni. but I am now hoping to go into Military Strategies as my degree in RMC. Something that will benefit me more then say a history or English degree since I wish to make the military a career and not just a way to get free education (no offense to anyone doing that method.)

 So i'd just say figure out what you wanna take and figure out from people and the universities your interested in which offers the best course and experience for it.


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## Lumber (3 Nov 2008)

Marshall said:
			
		

> I am planning to attend RMC for 09-10 too. I briefly considered a Civilian Uni. but I am now hoping to go into Military Strategies as my degree in RMC. Something that will benefit me more then say a history or English degree since I wish to make the military a career and not just a way to get free education (no offense to anyone doing that method.)
> 
> So i'd just say figure out what you wanna take and figure out from people and the universities your interested in which offers the best course and experience for it.



Military Strategies = MSS = Military and Strategic Studies = 1/2 history Course that all the history majors take + 1/2 politics courses that all the politics majors take.

There's really nothing special to it. 

http://www.rmc.ca/academic/registrar/programme/p006_dmilstrat2obj_e.html

IMO, go into a program that you will actually enjoy. If this is MSS, knock yourself out!  If you aren't going into an engineering trade, the degrees won't greatly affect your military career, so it would suck to get stuck in a degree program you hate. I might be biased, but I'd say a business degree, or even a psyche degree (god did I just say that?) would have the greatest actual impact on your career. But that's just my uninformed opinion.

Cheers.


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## Strike (3 Nov 2008)

Marshall said:
			
		

> ...which offers the best course and experience for it.



That's really the deciding factor isn't it?  You may be planning on spending your whole life in the military, but you always have to plan for the worst case scenario.  What if you pooch a career course or get an injury that results in your having to leave the forces?  Which degree will better serve you in the work force?

Now, remember that your grades at RMC would likely be nowhere near as high as at a civilian university because of all the extra curricular stuff you had to do.  Most businesses now require a Masters or better to get started with them.  When you apply to do your Masters degree will the admissions at another institution understand the workings of RMC and the reasons why your grades are lower than Joe Civvie from Civvie U?  Or will you be lucky and be dealing with someone who's an RMC grad themselves?

Things to ponder while making your choice.


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## chris_log (3 Nov 2008)

I'll toss my opinion in;

I'm currently in fourth year at civvie-u. Would I have preferred to have gone to RMC? There are times when I consider how much easier it is for one to stay in peak physical shape there (none of the RMC types I know are anywhere near out of shape), the valuable connections you make there as opposed to being in the far flung reaches of civilian university and the various opportunities afforded to RMC kids (i.e. do the Sandhurst competition, the various bands, the many trips you can go on, ease of access to sports and such) that are unavailable or harder to get at a civilian school. At the end of the day, am I happy with my choice? Yeah. If I could turn back time, however, would I have gone to RMC? Maybe. The quality of education isn't as good as some civilian schools (don't let anyone's knickers get in a bunch with that comment) but the overall 'package' is a one of a kind deal (amd IMHO, education is but a small part of what university...and especially ROTP, should be all about). 

So after 3 and a bit years of ROTP and other 'military stuff' I'm going to eat some humble pie here and say that...IMHO, the CF should end the civvie-u option for ROTP (except for students going for medical, legal etc degrees) and expand RMC (or re-open Royal Roads and expand CMR) and ALL ROTP candidates go through there. Having almost completed my degree I can say that, while it was nice to get the degree....what I've learned applies hardly at all to the military. But what you do at RMC (fitness, team sports, bands, mil skills, Sandhurst, a military styled education etc) is far more applicable. Now, there are plenty of things that aren't so good about RMC (any honest RMC grad, staff or Kingston police officer will tell you that) BUT....I would suggest that you tick the box for RMC. 

Of course, if you want to ask me if I regret my choice of going ROTP then I can say without a moment's hesitation....YES!!!! I had other plans and applied to ROTP as an afterthought and ended up getting accepted. My original plan was to switch MOC's when I was in the 'Mo, go to college...do a tour and then transfer to the reg's as an MP (policing has always been my main interest). Am I happy being an ROTP log officer? Yes, it's a good job (logistics is a fascinating field of work in the military) and a great opportunity. But is it what I really wanted? Not really (although the PSO says that while I have a next to nil chance of VOT'ing to MPO, if I want I can be sent to the CFMPA as an MP...all I need to do is give them the go ahead and I'll be switched). 

What should you take away from my post? Make darn sure you know what you want and do it no matter what. I'm happy either way, but my ideal path is not what I took.


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## Marshall (3 Nov 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Military Strategies = MSS = Military and Strategic Studies = 1/2 history Course that all the history majors take + 1/2 politics courses that all the politics majors take.
> 
> There's really nothing special to it.
> 
> ...



Oh yes I know and thanks for the info. I do think I will enjoy MSS, the whole army history and such courses like Peacemaking, Mil. Psych + Combat, International Conflict, Relations seem quite interesting to me and I am sure it would be beneficial to someone hoping to be an (hopefully achieved) Officer throughout their career in the CF.



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> That's really the deciding factor isn't it?  You may be planning on spending your whole life in the military, but you always have to plan for the worst case scenario.  What if you pooch a career course or get an injury that results in your having to leave the forces?  Which degree will better serve you in the work force?
> 
> Now, remember that your grades at RMC would likely be nowhere near as high as at a civilian university because of all the extra curricular stuff you had to do.  Most businesses now require a Masters or better to get started with them.  When you apply to do your Masters degree will the admissions at another institution understand the workings of RMC and the reasons why your grades are lower than Joe Civvie from Civvie U?  Or will you be lucky and be dealing with someone who's an RMC grad themselves?
> 
> Things to ponder while making your choice.



Ive considered the Injury scenario, as I am trying to go Armour Officer. I'll just hope luck is on my side. If it ends up that I need to find another job down the road, at least ill be content knowing I had a unique 4 years of (free + salary) education at RMC and a lot of meaningful lessons to go with it.

And when you mean "pooch a career course" do you mean do terrible at one of the training/qualification courses for your intended military job? :/


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## Drag (4 Nov 2008)

Marshall said:
			
		

> And when you mean "pooch a career course" do you mean do terrible at one of the training/qualification courses for your intended military job? :/



You can fail a career course and get transfered to a different trade or released from the military as a result.


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## Marshall (4 Nov 2008)

Drag said:
			
		

> You can fail a career course and get transfered to a different trade or released from the military as a result.



Ok thats what I figured pooch meant lol. Thanks.


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## tumbling_dice (8 Nov 2008)

How much time does doing in ROTP save you in terms of training? SInce ROTPs do training during the summer, they must have less phase training to do than DEOs. How significant is this amount?


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## George Wallace (9 Nov 2008)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> How much time does doing in ROTP save you in terms of training? SInce ROTPs do training during the summer, they must have less phase training to do than DEOs. How significant is this amount?


Just some advice.......Please read the various threads on the various Officer Plans, and you would know most of the answers without having to ask them over and over again.

ROTP does not save you any time, in fact it may take you longer.  All Officer Entry Plans require you to do Phase Training.  DEOs and ROTP will find themselves on the same courses during Phase Training.  Where ROTP may only do one Phase each summer, a DEO will likely do each Phase, one after another, throughout the 12 to 18 months that they are run.  A DEO may arrive in Jan of this year and do Phase I, followed by Phase II/CAP in the Summer and within two years be done all his Phase Training and posted to a Unit.  The ROTP candidate will have only done two Phases in the meantime.


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## chris_log (12 Nov 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just some advice.......Please read the various threads on the various Officer Plans, and you would know most of the answers without having to ask them over and over again.
> 
> ROTP does not save you any time, in fact it may take you longer.  All Officer Entry Plans require you to do Phase Training.  DEOs and ROTP will find themselves on the same courses during Phase Training.  Where ROTP may only do one Phase each summer, a DEO will likely do each Phase, one after another, throughout the 12 to 18 months that they are run.  A DEO may arrive in Jan of this year and do Phase I, followed by Phase II/CAP in the Summer and within two years be done all his Phase Training and posted to a Unit.  The ROTP candidate will have only done two Phases in the meantime.



And the ROTP guys do have the disadvantage of having courses 8 months apart which *should* be done back to back (like CAP and phase III and IV) or at least as close as possible, so as to keep all that knowledge stuck in their minds. After spending 8 months memorizing the constant flow of ivory tower pontificating and textbook rose-lensed theorizing one can easily forget their basic mil skills and satff have to spend the first bit of a course going over the basics, again and again.


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## tumbling_dice (12 Nov 2008)

I think I was misunderstood I meant how much ahead are you in your phase training if you ROTP as opposed to DEO (ex. ROTP you come out of university with BOTC and some phase training already done over the summer, DEO you come out of university with no training whatsoever).


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## chris_log (12 Nov 2008)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> I think I was misunderstood I meant how much ahead are you in your phase training if you ROTP as opposed to DEO (ex. ROTP you come out of university with BOTC and some phase training already done over the summer, DEO you come out of university with no training whatsoever).



I think I see what you're getting at....yes, an ROTP officer will be fully qualified sooner then a DEO officer (generally). 

For example, a infantry officer coming out of ROTP *should*, after graduation, only have phase IV left to do, while a DEO officer will have to go through IAP/BOTP through to Phase IV after graduation.


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## tumbling_dice (13 Nov 2008)

Thanks, thats exactly what I was asking, does that make a big difference (I know it depends on trade) or is the ROTP usually just ahead by a few months?


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## benny88 (13 Nov 2008)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> Thanks, thats exactly what I was asking, does that make a big difference (I know it depends on trade) or is the ROTP usually just ahead by a few months?



Depends on the trade. Also depends on how long one has been in ROTP. Some start training before 1st year, some not until the summer before 4th year.


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## brihard (13 Nov 2008)

I think comparing DEO and ROTP might not quite be the right way to go about it here. While ROTP is intended to attract those in or considering university with a subsidized education, DEO seems to be targeted towards those who already have degrees and are simply making the decision to join the military a bit later in life than an undergraduate would. ROTP would be the kid coming out of grade 12, or the second year university student who's finally found a direction he wants to take, whereas DEO would be the mid-20s or older crowd who've done school, have tried something else and either not found it to their liking or suddenly have found a possible calling in the military.


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## chris_log (13 Nov 2008)

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> Thanks, thats exactly what I was asking, does that make a big difference (I know it depends on trade) or is the ROTP usually just ahead by a few months?



It doesn't matter. The only difference is that ROTP kids get a free education and the DEO guys didn't. You can have a DEO officer who went to school at 18, joined the military after graduation at 22 and finished his training and gets posted when he's 23-24. You could have an ROTP type who went to school when he was 30, and finishes training and get's posted at 34-35. I think this is what you're getting at, 'how soon can I get trained and posted'. No one is 'ahead'.


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## tynanfromBC (20 Nov 2008)

If you've been accepted to UVIC, i say go. You'll have a hell of a time during the school year. Plus, for the Major + Minor with 120 credits you can just do a Double Major in Political Science (with a concentration in international relations or comparative politics, theory, cdn gov't, etc etc) and a major in history (concentration in military history) in the same 4 years. 

You can always go on later in life and get that masters in defence and strategic studies. 

I have never been to the RMC and know little about what it would be like their; but i know a bit about UVIC, and it's a lot of fun, tons of great people, and through the ROTP (from what i understand of it), you will get to meet people on course in the summers with a similar interest, and then during the school year make friends with similar academic interests or other commonalities. Either way; at the end of it, it's coming down to the education you get. No one can take that education from you.


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## Lumber (20 Nov 2008)

tynanfromBC said:
			
		

> Either way; at the end of it, it's coming down to the education you get. No one can take that education from you.



True, but at RMC you have 1000 other future officers living, eating, learning, and ******* *** ***** **** with you (thank you for that one, Brotherton). These people become your colleagues, classmates and friends. That amount of networking with the very people you will be fighting next to and with in your very near future is probably the greatest thing I will take with me when I graduate.

Cheers


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## tumbling_dice (20 Nov 2008)

Thanks tynan, I'm probably looking at Mechanical Engineering though. i currently live in Victoria and I definetely agree that both the city and UVIC are amazing. If I do end up going to UVIC it probably won't be through ROTP simply because I want to take full advantage of their Co-op program (which would not be allowed in ROTP due to the non-military renumeration regulations).


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## ChaosTheory (8 Dec 2008)

Hey there, I feel like giving my two cents into this thread though you probably already have your answer to your questions.

Brief history, I was accepted into SFU and Civvy-U ROTP and I am now halfway through my third year and I am definitely glad that I went to civvy-u over RMC.  I was especially thankful for this when I was in CFLRS for IAP and then BOTP.  Both times I was in an all civvy u platoon and our sister platoons were always the "RMC kids".  This last summer, my friend from SFU got stuck in the RMC platoon and she said it was the worst platoon she has ever been in.

The RMC kids, as we refer to them, always seemed to have an air of arrogance in their attitude when talking with them.  None of them seemed to want to work together and they always seemed to ask them instructors the questions you shouldn't be asking, (ie: when it is raining, if you could wear rain jackets; and when it is raining, you get your CPC to tell everyone to put on their rain gear, otherwise you will be sleeping in wet clothes).  

As well, RMC, as described by these same people I have met in St. Jean seems a lot easier than it is described, and everything gets done for you.  Basically you are babied, whereas in civilian university you have to do everything yourself and if you don't then you will fail.  This is definitely something that all officers should have when they are leading troops, the ability to get everything done without having someone do it all for you.


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## SupersonicMax (8 Dec 2008)

Sareon said:
			
		

> The RMC kids, as we refer to them, always seemed to have an air of arrogance in their attitude when talking with them.






			
				Sareon said:
			
		

> As well, RMC, as described by these same people I have met in St. Jean seems a lot easier than it is described, and everything gets done for you.  Basically you are babied, whereas in civilian university you have to do everything yourself and if you don't then you will fail.  This is definitely something that all officers should have when they are leading troops, the ability to get everything done without having someone do it all for you.



Isn't that some kind of "arrogant" attitude towards RMC "Kids"?  

BTW, you are as much a kid as they are.


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## ChaosTheory (8 Dec 2008)

Never said I wasn't.


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## Lumber (10 Dec 2008)

Sareon said:
			
		

> As well, RMC, as described by these same people I have met in St. Jean seems a lot easier than it is described, and everything gets done for you.  Basically you are babied, whereas in civilian university you have to do everything yourself and if you don't then you will fail.



Oh, that's right! Geeze and I had it all backwards. All this time I thought waking up at 0630 to form up in -5 degree weather on a Wednesday morning after having been up half the night filling gout PDRs and studying for exams was hard! 

You're so right, it's so much better to not be babied, and not have twice a week mandatory sports, early morning form-ups, weekly military training, an active and fully incorporated cadet chain of command and all the extra paper work that comes with it, dress standards, hair and beard standards, room inspections, mandatory class attendance, walk-throughs, etc.. etc.. Yessir, all that babying makes our lifes sooooo easy.  :


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## armchair_throwaway (10 Dec 2008)

If by harder he meant having million decisions to make in civilian universities. 

Some difficulties I've faced at UBC:
- Should I live in dorm or at home?
- Should I take the easy elective or interesting elective?
- Should I commute by public transit or my own vehicle?
- Should I join the Film society or the Fencing club?
- Should I withdraw from this boring class?
- Should I eat at the Village or the SUB?!

Very tough.


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## George Wallace (10 Dec 2008)

:

Not to mention; "What socks go with these shoes?"

Can we get back on topic about something a little less trivial?


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## Magic (16 Dec 2008)

I believe the key going into the RMC is having an open mind towards the experience. I expect it to be brutal and hard. But I also expect to graduate a better more disciplined individual as a result. 

All this talk about the arrogance of RMC cadets is feasible and I would expect it present in platoons. However, I am sure those inidivuals will be quickly put in their place sooner or later.

As a hopeful RMC cadet, everyone deserves my equal respect no matter what choice they have made academically. Personally, I would invite the opportunity to mingle with Civi-U cadets any chance I got. At the end of the day however, we are all on the same team and rely on one another for support. Every individual is different, some may complain, some will brag while others may keep to themselves, at the end of the day what counts is you.


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## GINge! (4 Jan 2009)

Regrets.. not anymore. 

I was accepted to U of T under ROTP. 1 day AFTER my BOTC grad, the ULO informed me that a spot had opened up at RMC. Under the terms of my enrollment, I had to take the RMC option if it was offered, or take my release. I had been to RMC on zoo tour and knew that I would not really fit in there, but decided to give it a year. Hated it for the whole year, but I passed 1st yr. Decided to try it for another year. Hated it. By third year, I had enough free weekends to visit my friends at Civy U (Toronto, Western, York) to see how they lived, and that really really made me hate my 3rd and 4th years at RMC  ;D

That being said, looking back, I was glad I went to RMC. I honestly don't think I possessed the self discipline required to go to Civy U and be able to pass phase training at CTC. 

I did make lifelong friends at RMC, but I reckon the same could be said for Civy U. RMC cadets do seem to share the bond of common experience, regardless of their graduation year. There is certainly no animosity towards folks who came in via DEO / ROTP Civ..maybe a touch of jealousy though! My DEO friends are jealous that the 4 years of ROTP was all pensionable time, especially now that we are up in the 20 yr mark. 

I do understand what Sareon is getting at wrt to 'babying'. At RMC our schedules for the first couple years were carefully managed, our meals were prepared, our bills were paid, our attendance in class, parades, sports was compulsory, etc. The reason for that is a lot of folks show up at RMC without the self discipline to get them through the first years of academic and military life, and I think without that 'babying' (hate that word, but know what you mean) at number of potentially good cadets would fail out. Granted, there are not a lot of life skills to practice and that atmosphere *can* stifle initiative; however, RMC and CTC found ways to make up for that in later years. 

I would recommend you at least try RMC.


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## tyciol (12 Jan 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> You can have a DEO officer who went to school at 18, joined the military after graduation at 22 and finished his training and gets posted when he's 23-24. You could have an ROTP type who went to school when he was 30, and finishes training and get's posted at 34-35. I think this is what you're getting at, 'how soon can I get trained and posted'. No one is 'ahead'.


Do you think there are many ROTPs who get accepted at 30? I figured if you were over the 18-20 range that they wouldn't let you in since they wanted young officers. How much flexibility do you think there is for age and stuff? In the previous example of your DEO who got a degree by 22, instead of DEO, do you think they could apply to an ROTP instead to get a 2nd degree? Some people may go for multiple specialties, or maybe their degree is in something that's not very applicable to the military, or they want something engineering-oriented when they were doing a pre-med and decided healthcare wasn't for them.


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## KingKikapu (12 Jan 2009)

pre-med.  god i loved hearing that one.


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## chris_log (12 Jan 2009)

tyciol said:
			
		

> Do you think there are many ROTPs who get accepted at 30? I figured if you were over the 18-20 range that they wouldn't let you in since they wanted young officers. How much flexibility do you think there is for age and stuff? In the previous example of your DEO who got a degree by 22, instead of DEO, do you think they could apply to an ROTP instead to get a 2nd degree? Some people may go for multiple specialties, or maybe their degree is in something that's not very applicable to the military, or they want something engineering-oriented when they were doing a pre-med and decided healthcare wasn't for them.



I have met plenty of older ROTP types, people coming in from right off the street and not CFR'd etc. 

A person with a degree already could apply for ROTP to get a second degree, however, the CF may not see that as a viable option and will offer you a direct entry instead.


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## tyciol (12 Jan 2009)

So is it that they just want officers to have a bachelor's degree of some sort because it looks good? Certain areas presumably don't have a direct enough military purpose, which is why RMC doesn't offer as wide a variety of programs as most other large universities do. They offer them presumably in areas which are more applicable to military experience. Although, there are exceptions, since stuff like Nursing/Dentistry/Medicine are very useful and they don't teach them, but that's more because it's supportive for troops and it would require them to specialize too much probably I guess.


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## chris_log (12 Jan 2009)

tyciol said:
			
		

> So is it that they just want officers to have a bachelor's degree of some sort because it looks good? Certain areas presumably don't have a direct enough military purpose, which is why RMC doesn't offer as wide a variety of programs as most other large universities do. They offer them presumably in areas which are more applicable to military experience. Although, there are exceptions, since stuff like Nursing/Dentistry/Medicine are very useful and they don't teach them, but that's more because it's supportive for troops and it would require them to specialize too much probably I guess.



There are a number of reasons for a 'degreed' officer corps. They are on this site somewhere if you search for 'em (I don't really have the time to do it right now).


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## Riddoch (17 Feb 2009)

Just curious, but is the 12U math mandatory for ROTP in general, or only for RMC? (looking at English). I'll be heading to the CFRC tomorrow to check out my options, but would like to know ahead of time if possible.  The websites don't give a definitive answer.


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## dwalter (21 Feb 2009)

Is 12U math highschool grade math? Such as grade 12 math? If so, then it is applicable for any university that has it in the admission requirements. If you want to go into science or engineering at pretty much all universities you need it.

For arts degrees, some universities still require it, some don't. My university didn't. 

If you are talking about first year math at university? Again it depends on your degree. My school didn't require it for the arts program, but we do need 6 credits of science.


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## trentonmilwife (23 Feb 2009)

Wow this topic really has expanded into many different sub topics, some of which I feel the need to add my two cents.

As a mature Civvy-u ROTP student, I can tell you that I am living proof that people 30+ join the forces under the ROTP program. Its not easy to go back to school once you've been established in life, but enough are doing it and its not always because, well I didn't like my dead-end job so I have no choice. I had a great job, I was an HR manager and thought that was my career and then I got married to a military guy (who actually was a DEO, not because he got out of university and didn't know what to do with himself, but because he always wanted to join) Anyways fast forward a few years and after going through lots of change and other posting, I wasn't able to get another job in the HR field that paid more than EI, so after 8 long months I applied to go back to school and to ROTP. Its been the best choice I ever made and I'm glad I went the Civvy-U route.

Now should I have been 18 and fresh out of the house again, I probably still would've chosen the Civvy-U route as I do feel that while RMC is a unique experience; so is being 18, living on your own and being a responsible adult because you want  to, not because an inspection is coming and you have  to. RMC will teach you many things, but does it teach you how to really take care of yourself? Here in Trenton, I've seen many young 2Lts and Lts who are miserable because they have never known what its like to live alone and survive, how to cook, how to really clean a place (because oh its been more than 6 months in one apartment and carpets look really dirty now). I know this doesn't apply to all RMC students, as I've met some great ones too, but many face a steep life learning curve once they get spit out of the training system and get their first real posting. (And the same thing could be said for some Civvy-U students or DEOs who never left the house or lived in residences their whole uni "career". I guess this could speak volumes on how parenting has changed, but that's a different topic all together) 

Other food for thought

The forces is all about the "team", but in a school where you are continuously being ranked in order of grades and everything is so competitve, do you really ever because a true team player? Does that mentality ever change once you've bought in? 

Does having a schedule that dictates exactly when you can do everything from sleep to eat to class to PT to extracuriculars to shower really teach you to time manage???

Yes you make great friends at RMC, partly due to the small class size and constant interaction, however I don't feel it is an advantage over DEOs or Civvy-U students, as we get to network just as much as really and sometimes the lack of "fear" (or some may put it as respect) of the rank system actually helps us network with higher ranks with greater ease. Because really at the end of the day, will it be your peer who helps you get that next posting or someone two ranks higher than you?

My point is just that in the grand scheme of things, different experiences can prepare you for different challenges, just ask yourself, how will ____ (insert thing you are considering here) help me in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years???


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## Magic (23 Feb 2009)

To each their own about RMC. 

Sure it may not be for everyone, however a big bonus of RMC is at the end of your studies you are bilingual and have a good chunk of your "promotional courses" required for higher ranking promotions later on. Where as civi-u you get none of that. Plus the RMC better prepares you for military life initially. 

everyone has different situations at home.


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## trentonmilwife (25 Feb 2009)

Magic, I agree to each their own, but you are not fully correct about the "bilingualism" and "promotional courses" by which I assume you mean OPME's. I will be done all 6 of my OPME's upon graduation and have a EEE profile. A Civvy-U student can attend any university in Canada (student housing generally is similar in cost to Rations and Quarters, and in some cities students also get PLD),also given the several bilingual universities in this country, if they want to become bilingual they can as well and just to note while many RMC students come out with a BBB profile (or better) many don't retest that high 5 years later...

And yes at the beginning of any officer's career I'm sure that RMC does "prepare" you, but generally by the time you reach Captains its a level playing field... its all what you make of it and both have advantages.


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## Magic (25 Feb 2009)

I agree fully, it what you make out of the experience.


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## Riddoch (27 Feb 2009)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> Is 12U math highschool grade math? Such as grade 12 math? If so, then it is applicable for any university that has it in the admission requirements. If you want to go into science or engineering at pretty much all universities you need it.


Yes, it would be 12U math.  Although when I looked at the University sites of the ones I'm interested in, they didn't require Math as a prerequisite to their arts degrees.  When checking the CF Recruiting site, it was listed under prerequisites for ROTP.  I was confused.


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## prima6 (27 Feb 2009)

trentonmilwife said:
			
		

> The forces is all about the "team", but in a school where you are continuously being ranked in order of grades and everything is so competitve, do you really ever because a true team player? Does that mentality ever change once you've bought in?



The same argument could be applied to the rest of the forces.  The CFPAS system continuously ranks people against each other.  At our unit all of the Capts were ranked this month within in the school and next month there is a Wing ranking.  I don't think that it makes anyone less of a team player and my experience at RMC was the same.  I also didn't see the ranking at RMC as being that competitive (I see the ACSO trade as being more competitive in fact).

I went to RMC for my undergraduate degree and Civ-U for my graduate degree and both environments have there pros and cons.  I also did a semester exchange while at RMC to the USAF Academy and saw a different experience there with it's pros and cons compared to RMC or Civ-U.  I didn't see any environment as being a make or break for anything that has since come in my career.  There are merits to both, as well as DEO, CFR, UTPNCM and all of the other entry programs.  IMO, having a diverse background of experience improves the officer corp.


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## dwalter (28 Feb 2009)

Riddoch said:
			
		

> Yes, it would be 12U math.  Although when I looked at the University sites of the ones I'm interested in, they didn't require Math as a prerequisite to their arts degrees.  When checking the CF Recruiting site, it was listed under prerequisites for ROTP.  I was confused.



Well I got into ROTP without grade 12 math, so I think you just need to worry about your faculty pre-reqs.


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## Lumber (1 Mar 2009)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> Well I got into ROTP without grade 12 math, so I think you just need to worry about your faculty pre-reqs.



Further, there are people at RMC who got into RMC without RMC even seeing a final copy of their transcripts. The recruiters may get a copy and give the go ahead, but on RMC records there are students here without the mandatory "6 University level highschool courses" (at least that's the Ontario requirement) because RMC never bothered to get a hold of an updated and final transcript.


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## jmhfighterpilot (13 Mar 2009)

I got accepted into RMC yesterday, even though I never put it as one of my three university choices. I originally got a letter congratulating me on my acceptance to a Civi U which will be fully subsidized for 4 years. 
 I had my heart set on a Civi U, but now they tell me my only option is RMC.  Everyone (Family/Friends) wants me to go to RMC.   I will be going into Business Administration as Air Ops (Pilot).  I hope RMC won't be too bad and am looking forward to the new experience.


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## aesop081 (13 Mar 2009)

jmhfighterpilot said:
			
		

> I hope RMC won't be too bad and am looking forward to the new experience.



You will be getting university for FREE and a salary to go with it. Quit complaining.


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## KingKikapu (13 Mar 2009)

Not to mention pensionable time.

I, on the other hand, have exited from the post secondary education system with no such time, and tens of thousands of dollars in student loans.  Don't even get me started on the job market.

Count your blessings.


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## ChrisG (9 Apr 2009)

jmhfighterpilot

When do you expect to do ACS?

If your are RMC and do not pass ACS can you leave with no obligation?  (As normal RMC cadet can.)  Do you know what your obligation was  after a year ROTP if you did not pass ACS?

Which Civy U were you enrolled for?


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## ScottS (11 Apr 2009)

Aircrew selection results would have no impact on your ability to voluntarily release.  You would have the same options as any other first year RMC cadet whether or not you pass aircrew selection.  Of course, if you don't pass they would likely offer you a different occupation.  

Also, I know of some people who went to RMC as a pilot, failed aircrew during first year, completed their private licence, then did aircrew again (a couple years later) and passed the second time around.  But, like anyone else, you can't release after 1st year without obligation, so waiting around to try a second time could be risky if you only want to be a pilot.


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