# ‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog



## daftandbarmy (15 Nov 2022)

Gulp...

‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog​“White nationalism” is an “active” threat to the Canadian Armed Forces, a new report says, but the Forces’ counter-intelligence unit is under-resourced and unable to “proactively” deal with the issue.

In a report released Monday, the independent National Security and Intelligence Review Committee (NSIRA) said the Department of National Defence has known for years their internal “counter-intelligence” branch has been underfunded and hindered by policy constraints.

The report also found the counter-intelligence unit was unable to “proactively” address white nationalism within the ranks, an issue that the top brass in all three branches of the Canadian Armed Forces have identified as a threat.

“White supremacist groups actively seek individuals with prior military training and experience, or conversely, encourage individuals to enlist in order to gain access to specialized training, tactics and equipment,” the partially-censored NSIRA report read.

“As such, the CAF remains attractive to elements of the right-wing, with a series of internal reports having warned of white supremacist membership among the ranks.”









						‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Independent national security review body notes that National Defence has failed to provide adequate resources to counter-intelligence for a decade.




					globalnews.ca


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## Weinie (15 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Gulp...
> 
> ‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog​“White nationalism” is an “active” threat to the Canadian Armed Forces, a new report says, but the Forces’ counter-intelligence unit is under-resourced and unable to “proactively” deal with the issue.
> 
> ...


FFS. Really.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

Lets list the things the CAF is ready for.....







Oh oh.


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Gulp...
> 
> ‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog​“White nationalism” is an “active” threat to the Canadian Armed Forces, a new report says, but the Forces’ counter-intelligence unit is under-resourced and unable to “proactively” deal with the issue.
> 
> ...


We gotta be ready for all those crazy white folk 😄

Wasn't there an article that was released shortly after the Patrik Matthews  incident that stated this entire issue was overblown?  Something about making mountains out of mole hills?


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## Quirky (15 Nov 2022)

How dare we have white people be proud of their country. 

Trudeau needs to try harder.


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> How dare we have white people be proud of their country.
> 
> Trudeau needs to try harder.


We’re not talking about ordinary white folk or overt extremists.

These are the ones who sneak under the wire, make like you’re their friend and then stab you in the back. Smiling as they do


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## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2022)

Is this really an issue ANYWHERE in Canada? FFS, lets put some BS distracting messages out so everyone looks the other way while the government EA inquiry makes them looks like fools, Freeland enlightens us on home budgeting tips and now we are looking at China interfering (Helping the LPC) in the 2019 election. 

Don't be fooled Canada.


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## FSTO (15 Nov 2022)

Are there racist idiots out there? Yes there is.
Are there some in the CAF? Yes there is.
Are they a threat to the nation of Canada? Not at all.

The chattering classes in the Ottawa-Toronto-Montreal triangle would love to import every issue from the US and make it our own. For all of our similarities with our southern cousins we are still two very different nations. As was shown by the convoy and the border blockades, they were somewhat organized but when push came to shove and the authorities finally got their shit together the convoy melted away like the snow in a chinook. Also when the threat of real armed issues came to the fore, the authorities were able to nip that in the bud pretty damn quick.

Yes there will always be lone wolf attacks, but an organized white nationalist militia attacking the foundations of Canada? Nope, its just not in our DNA.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Oh great, are we gonna have to have the “why ‘white nationalism’ is not the same thing as benign patriotism” discussion again? Because the shit takes on that are always entertaining.

This is not messaging coming from a partisan organization. NSIRA is independent and arms-length. It relaxed the old Security Intelligence Review Committee. It has an oversight role over all national security intelligence functions, drawing on information from all agencies (there are more at the table than you would likely expect). NSIRA has full access to all intelligence records necessary to fulfill its function, unrestricted by degrees of classification and sensitivity; they have the clearances and facilities necessary to use that information in its assessments.

National security investigations pivot to what and where the threats to the security of Canada are. In the past few years, that has largely been hard-right ideologically motivated violent extremism. It’s neither secret nor new news that individuals with these beliefs are either radicalizing after serving in CAF or other aspects of our security apparatus, or that alternatively, radicalized individuals are seeking access to military training.

Nobody is pretending this an _existential_ threat to Canada- but it certainly is a _security_ threat. Allied countries are contending with this too. This report seems to be suggesting (from the article- I’ve not yet found it to read) that CAF struggles to stay ahead of this potential radicalization or infiltration, and I find that completely believable.

Thus far the national security apparatus has generally been very effective in detecting and disrupting such threats, generally quietly and with little or no public attention. I’m doing so, it has learned quite a bit about what these networks look like and how they operate. I suspect that this report emerges out of lessons learned during efforts to get to ‘prevention’ before it’s necessary to resort to ‘cure’.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

Perhaps all true, but like any organization, if they don't overblow the threat then they risk getting underbudgeted in the future.

Games people play.....


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Is this really an issue ANYWHERE in Canada? FFS, lets put some BS distracting messages out so everyone looks the other way while the government EA inquiry makes them looks like fools, Freeland enlightens us on home budgeting tips and now we are looking at China interfering (Helping the LPC) in the 2019 election.
> 
> Don't be fooled Canada.


I think it is. Many years ago when I was an "information" officer at the jail we looked into this. At that time they were said to be a very small segment of society and we shouldn't fret too much. My response was along the lines that at some point they would form a critical mass and organize. Not my exact words but close.

And here we are. They IMO are not an existential threat BUT could be a huge pain in the ass for future governments.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Perhaps all true, but like any organization, if they don't overblow the threat then they risk getting underbudgeted in the future.
> 
> Games people play.....


That’s… That’s not how NSIRA works, or what they do.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> How dare we have white people be proud of their country.
> 
> Trudeau needs to try harder.




Mod Post

Please explain exactly what this is supposed to mean.


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## Blackadder1916 (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> This is not messaging coming from a partisan organization. NSIRA is independent and arms-length. It relaxed the old Security Intelligence Review Committee. It has an oversight role over all national security intelligence functions, drawing on information from all agencies (there are more at the table than you would likely expect). NSIRA has full access to all intelligence records necessary to fulfill its function, unrestricted by degrees of classification and sensitivity; they have the clearances and facilities necessary to use that information in its assessments.


Bravo, well said.

And for those who wish to specifically see the Dec 2020 (_now declassified with redactions_) report that is being discussed and some of the other products of NSIRA, it can be found here.









						Home - NSIRA
					






					nsira-ossnr.gc.ca
				





			https://nsira-ossnr.gc.ca/wp-content/uploads/CFNCIU-2019-01-REDACTED-EN.pdf


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

This is likely where the rumour(?) of a Veterans Watchlist comes from. I've been hearing dribs and drabs about this for a couple of years. What's been said is, it is the same type of list as a terrorist or biker watch list. Now it kind of makes sense. This government doesn't  like or trust Veterans. Even if true, I don't expect any LEOs or Int types to admit about it, especially on open boards. However, if someone does know, just keep quiet about it. No need to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. I questioned some Opposition members, just last week about this. I wonder if I'll get an answer. 

The white supremist thing, in the military, as almost the greatest  threat to Canada, is a canard. The Biden government has tried to push the same narrative about their military and Republicans. Does it exist. No doubt. The same way as the cartels have infiltrated the US military. Isolated instances and small groups. Or Tamil Tigers, or just plain terrorists looking for training or any number of groups.
If I was a betting man, I could easily believe this from our current mob of governance. Or perhaps they dragged this back out in response to Maisonneuve's speech the other night at his award banquet. He spoke truth to power and really pissed of a lot of people. Especially, when he got standing ovation from the military people there. 

"Nip this shit in the bud, before I get back from Bali."


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## Kat Stevens (15 Nov 2022)

Let's get our Generals to stop sticking their pens in the company ink pot while we're at it.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Nov 2022)

At least we don't have generals eluding to us not wanting white soldiers. I'm sure white supremacists could really use that to support their recruiting efforts to get more white supremacists interested in the CAF and recruit more disgruntled CAF members.


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## Quirky (15 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Mod Post
> 
> Please explain exactly what this is supposed to mean.


It’s all bullshit anyway. Thanks to the media and lack of backing of gov, most Canadians think the CAF are all white nationalists who commit sexual crimes. We are in a crisis after all. If I had a dollar for every negative article printed on the CAF in the past 5 years…


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Ah yes the « white nationalist extremism » is just a hoax argument.

Why is it so hard to believe that in western culture that has been predominately white for a while that white extremism might actually be thing…


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## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah yes the « white nationalist extremism » is just a hoax argument.
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe that in western culture that has been predominately white for a while that white extremism might actually be thing…


Its such a severe threat right now that its in the news everyday, right? ohhh

No offence. Actually to hell with it, take offence, I don't give a rats fook, your extremely left leaning to the point you jump on every left sided liberal/NDP cause.


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## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah yes the « white nationalist extremism » is just a hoax argument.
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe that in western culture that has been predominately white for a while that white extremism might actually be thing…


You know what Threat to Canada is in the news EVERYDAY? The Trudeau Liberals incompetence


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Its such a severe threat right now that its in the news everyday, right? ohhh
> 
> No offence. Actually to hell with it, take offence, I don't give a rats fook, your extremely left leaning to the point you jump on every left sided liberal/NDP cause.


Chill.  Seriously.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> At least we don't have generals eluding to us not wanting white soldiers.


Not out loud anyway.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

Though through "recruiting targets" , they do say they want them LESS...


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Ah yes the « white nationalist extremism » is just a hoax argument.
> 
> Why is it so hard to believe that in western culture that has been predominately white for a while that white extremism might actually be thing…


Nobody is denying it doesn't exist. What we are denying is that it is not the existential threat that the government is putting forward. It is nothing more than a way to smear Caucasians as the biggest threat in Canada or our military. It's just a false narrative. They would have us believe that only white nationalists are responsible for some sort of physical threat to Canadian society. That is bullshit. The red and orange liberals are the greatest danger to Canada and our population. Change white nationalism for any group persecuted by the Third Reich, Idi Amin Dada, Stalin, Mao or PolPot. There's your narrative.


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Nobody in this thread and that article made it out to be an existential threat.  Just that it remains a threat the CAF seems ill equipped to deal with.


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## Kirkhill (15 Nov 2022)

Proud. White. Male. British. Presbyterian. Christian. 

No excuses.


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Just that it remains a threat the CAF seems ill equipped to deal with.


I agree, but:

I would honestly say it tracks far, far, far down the list of threats we are ill equipped to deal with.

Air Defence seems to come to mind, as well as Cyber Security. Hell extortion by foreign entities would be more of an existential threat than WNism.

It's like worrying about genetic markers for cancer when the patient has a sucking chest wound; definitely something to consider, not something to prioritize....


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Proud. White. Male. British. Presbyterian. Christian.
> 
> No excuses.


No one asked for excuses.  But some people seem really sensitive and triggered by what is a legit thing.


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Nobody in this thread and that article made it out to be an existential threat.  Just that it remains a threat the CAF seems ill equipped to deal with.


Its not an existential threat. WHAT should happen is those that are responsible for security clearances step up their efforts.


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## Navy_Pete (15 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Gulp...
> 
> ‘White nationalism’ a threat the Canadian Armed Forces aren’t equipped for: watchdog​“White nationalism” is an “active” threat to the Canadian Armed Forces, a new report says, but the Forces’ counter-intelligence unit is under-resourced and unable to “proactively” deal with the issue.
> 
> ...



What do you suppose the NSIRA does to proactively deal with white nationalism infiltrating their ranks?

It's a problem, but a relatively isolated one. Why should we be proactive about it vice taking a reactive stance and punting someone if they make it through recruiting and something comes up? Or are we supposed to actively surveil anyone in uniform?


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I agree, but:
> 
> I would honestly say it tracks far, far, far down the list of threats we are I'll equipped to deal with.
> 
> ...


And there are plenty of articles on us not being ready for cyber.  Trust me I am aware. 

But some seem real sensitive about this when brought up.


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> And there are plenty of articles on us not being ready for cyber.  Trust me I am aware.
> 
> But some seem real sensitive about this when brought up.


We  always train for the next war by training for the last war. This is a trademark of most armies. 

At one time we had forward thinkers.....


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## Kirkhill (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> No one asked for excuses.  But some people seem really sensitive and triggered by what is a legit thing.


You say triggered like its a bad thing.


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> What do you suppose the NSIRA does to proactively deal with white nationalism infiltrating their ranks?
> 
> It's a problem, but a relatively isolated one. Why should we be proactive about it vice taking a reactive stance and punting someone if they make it through recruiting and something comes up? Or are we supposed to actively surveil anyone in uniform?


The issue is that they are targeting the CAF.  They aren’t actively trying to join environnement Canada or the food inspection agency.  

Security clearance issues would be a good start.  But our recruiting system is so bogged up I doubt there is much they can do about it.


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> You say triggered like its a bad thing.


Don’t care.


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## Brad Sallows (15 Nov 2022)

All threats ought be watched.  This is one.  Don't let it detract from others.


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> And there are plenty of articles on us not being ready for cyber.  Trust me I am aware.
> 
> But some seem real sensitive about this when brought up.


You're talking to someone who wouldn't have been classified as "white" 50 years ago. I'm not one to get my hackles up about what the mangiacake population is getting defensive about.

My point is that we have bigger fish to fry security wise than the potential for WNists joining the CAF. I'd be more worried about the fact Pte. Bloggins Int Op can't afford to sleep in a van in Ottawa; I'm certain China has noticed this all too well themselves.


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## Kat Stevens (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> And there are plenty of articles on us not being ready for cyber.  Trust me I am aware.
> 
> But some seem real sensitive about this when brought up.


Maybe because every time you stick your oar in on a topic it’s to point a finger at an identifiable group and say “There! There’s the problem!”


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

Similar things came up in the late 2000s - apparently OMGs were hiring former military to train them in weapons, tactics and explosives.


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## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2022)

Things I worry about more than the serious rise of "white nationalism"
1. Going bankrupt because the taxes have gutted most of us business owners;
2. Blizzards;
3. Sharks;
4. Trudeau;
5. Sharks with freaking lazers;
6. Cows getting out at 2 am;
7. Neighbour's dog;
8. The boogeyman;
9. Coyotes;
10. Freeland having to give up her Disney+ subscription;
11. Sharks from a Sharknado; 
12. Extremist Mormons;
13. Zombie Apocalypse;
14. Zombie Shark Apocalypse;
15. DS Staff with a clipboard and red pen;
16. Recurring dreams of horribly long O groups that are pointless;
17. My sons gun taping me in the middle of the night;
18. My wife finding out I spend more than 20 minutes each day on army.ca;
19. A Sharknado hitting a blizzard; and 
20. My chickens not laying eggs anymore. 

You can see that although their maybe very FEW that are into white nationalism, I have bigger and more real things to worry about.


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> You're talking to someone who wouldn't have been classified as "white" 50 years ago. I'm not one to get my hackles up about what the mangiacake population is getting defensive about.
> 
> My point is that we have bigger fish to fry security wise than the potential for WNists joining the CAF. I'd be more worried about the fact Pte. Bloggins Int Op can't afford to sleep in a van in Ottawa; I'm certain China has noticed this all too well themselves.


That does not mean that you ignore or deny or get upset when a security threat gets identified?  Or should it just be ignored?  Again no one said this was existential,  sure we have bigger fish to fry, no one here says otherwise.


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## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Things I worry about more than the serious rise of "white nationalism"
> 1. Going bankrupt because the taxes have gutted most of us business owners;
> 2. Blizzards;
> 3. Sharks;
> ...


Number 15 is especially scary. Closely followed by number 16.


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## Navy_Pete (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> The issue is that they are targeting the CAF.  They aren’t actively trying to join environnement Canada or the food inspection agency.
> 
> Security clearance issues would be a good start.  But our recruiting system is so bogged up I doubt there is much they can do about it.


Right, but that's the job of security clearance, which isn't even our department. And if they get through that we have all the tools needed to give them the boot if they do something.

What more would you suggest? Does someone at CSIS start actively monitoring all our social media posts? Emails? Maybe actively, randomly surveil people?

If the security folks that monitor extremist groups come across CAF members that are part of that, there is already a process to pull their security and punt them. Everyone gets periodic security updates anyway, and folks that are in sensitive spots get it more often. I didn't join up to be Gestapo'd by my peers though, so people that think we signed away all basic privacy requirements can get wrecked.

Why is that insufficient?


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Right, but that's the job of security clearance, which isn't even our department. And if they get through that we have all the tools needed to give them the boot if they do something.
> 
> What more would you suggest? Does someone at CSIS start actively monitoring all our social media posts? Emails? Maybe actively, randomly surveil people?
> 
> ...


Hey I don’t have the answers but I recognize it’s a problem.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> No one asked for excuses.  But some people seem really sensitive and triggered by what is a legit thing.


 People aren’t 'really sensitive and triggered'. They are tired of the government's lies, dis and misinformation and false narratives. This government has done nothing but lie, obsfucate and demonise people, to further globalist agenda. We are just pushing back from now on.


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Your narrative came under fire. Stop trying to flip the subject to something else. People aren’t 'really sensitive and triggered'. They are tired of the government's lies, dis and misinformation and false narratives. This government has done nothing but lie, obsfucate and demonise people, to further globalist agenda. We are just pushing back from now on.
> 
> But you go ahead. Keep repeating their bullshit for them. They like people like you.


I said it existed.  That narrative has not changed.  Or switched to something else. And why do you feel demonized by this report?


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> I said it existed.  That narrative has not changed.  Or switched to something else.


I edited my post to reflect your point.


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## rmc_wannabe (15 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> That does not mean that you ignore or deny or get upset when a security threat gets identified?  Or should it just be ignored?


Not in the slightest. I just notice that this specific threat is getting a lot more political and media attention, while other more pressing issues are put on the back burner. I could care less if it were WNism or Islamic Terrorism; they are far less dangerous strategically than some of the far more widespread and widereaching security threats we should be paying attention to. 

Distractions in and of themselves are security threats.


Remius said:


> Again no one said this was existential,  sure we have bigger fish to fry, no one here says otherwise.


Then when brought to this point, why are you cycling back to "oh so you don't think this is a big enough threat?"

I consider it a threat, but not at all the kind of threat we need to focus on right now. 

It's like that scene in Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" where in the midst of the Battle of Rorke's Drift, they stop everything to search for an officer's leg...


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## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> Not in the slightest. I just notice that this specific threat is getting a lot more political and media attention, while other more pressing issues are put on the back burner. I could care less if it were WNism or Islamic Terrorism; they are far less dangerous strategically than some of the far more widespread and widereaching security threats we should be paying attention to.


No one is denying your opinion or point of view on that.  Neither does the article from the OP.


rmc_wannabe said:


> Distractions in and of themselves are security threats.
> 
> Then when brought to this point, why are you cycling back to "oh so you don't think this is a big enough threat?"


Where did I say that? My comment was in response to « This is all BS ». I disagree. 


rmc_wannabe said:


> I consider it a threat, but not at all the kind of threat we need to focus on right now.


And that’s fine to think that way. No one here says or said otherwise.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…


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## MJP (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…


Yup


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## Jarnhamar (15 Nov 2022)

I remember not so long ago our "top soldier" General Jon Vance and the Minister of National Defense Harjit Sajjan started talking about white supremacy in the CAF. Some of us commented that it didn't seem to be as big a problem as they're pitching and accused them of trying to distract us from something else (but what could it be?).


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…


Nice to see members call disenting voices "stupid"...


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## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

It's an interesting article.  No doubt it exists, as it exists in our society so I would expect it to be present in our organization too.  And we should work to identify and take action on those that are found. 

But without out any empirical data in support of the prevalence of the threat being released it reads like a gossip piece.


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## Ostrozac (15 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Similar things came up in the late 2000s - apparently OMGs were hiring former military to train them in weapons, tactics and explosives.


My own regiment has a bit of a history of serious criminality — but not much in the way of political activism. Criminal behaviour with a profit motive seems to be seen as much less threatening than extremist/violent political ideologies.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…



Agreed.  There is no need for the emotional outbursts.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> My own regiment has a bit of a history of serious criminality — but not much in the way of political activism. Criminal behaviour with a profit motive seems to be seen as much less threatening than extremist/violent political ideologies.



They can be mutually supportive. In a negative way of course. 

Hence why bankruptcy can effect security clearances as it makes individuals possible targets for the devious.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It's an interesting article.  No doubt it exists, as it exists in our society so I would expect it to be present in our organization too.  And we should work to identify and take action on those that are found.
> 
> But without out any empirical data in support of the prevalence of the threat being released it reads like a gossip piece.


The article refers to an NSIRA assessment released with redactions. That assessment is derived from total access to Canada’s security intelligence infrastructure.

It’s been quite telling seeing how the strength of some opinions clearly inversely correlates with individuals’ understanding of what NSIRA is or does, what the CSIS act says about “threats to the security of Canada”, and what the rare public glance behind the curtain does _not_ say about the rest of the stuff we don’t get to see.

We have people in this thread pretending like this report identifies a ‘biggest threat’, or like this is a sole a singular national security focus when it very much isn’t. Almost as if we forget that literally yesterday charges were announced against an alleged Chinese spy, or that a couple of weeks ago a pair of ISIS returnees were arrested by RCMP INSET.

It’s almost like the CAF/veterans community suffers the same Dunning-Krueger effect regarding national security as the general public does about CAF.

I don’t know a whole ton about it, but I know a little bit; enough to know a whole lot is hidden behind the curtains, and that we aren’t really seeing much when knowingly given a peek like this, while others think it’s a great reveal.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Ostrozac said:


> My own regiment has a bit of a history of serious criminality — but not much in the way of political activism. Criminal behaviour with a profit motive seems to be seen as much less threatening than extremist/violent political ideologies.


More a matter of they attract different apparatus. Theft is an ‘insider threat’ thing, and a security liability, but (unless evidence links it to espionage or some sort of national security concern) not a real security threat in the way that would attract attention from the security intelligence sector. While there can absolutely be an overlap between plain greed and security threats, most theft is just theft. That would be something an investigation would work to determine.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> The article refers to an NSIRA assessment released with redactions. That assessment is derived from total access to Canada’s security intelligence infrastructure.
> 
> It’s been quite telling seeing how the strength of some opinions clearly inversely correlates with individuals’ understanding of what NSIRA is or does, what the CSIS act says about “threats to the security of Canada”, and what the rare public glance behind the curtain does _not_ say about the rest of the stuff we don’t get to see.
> 
> ...



I read the whole article.  And I formed my opinion. And I stated it.  

But I agree as well, as stated in another post.  Some reaction/response to this article is a bit much for what the article actually states.


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## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I read the whole article.  And I formed my opinion. And I stated it.
> 
> But I agree as well, as stated in another post.  Some reaction/response to this article is a bit much for what the article actually states.


Yup. Please understand that the first brief part of my reply was directly to you, and the rest of it was about the course of this thread more generally.


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## Kat Stevens (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…


I hate to disappoint.


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## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Yup. Please understand that the first brief part of my reply was directly to you, and the rest of it was about the course of this thread more generally.



I was picking up what you were putting down.  

I was and am just clearly stating my position.

No intention of being a dick.


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I was picking up what you were putting down.
> 
> I was and am just clearly stating my position.
> 
> No intention of being a dick.


Me either. Walls of text.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Me either. Walls of text.



We lose so much context in typed/written communication.


----------



## ArmyRick (15 Nov 2022)

This man is a far bigger threat to Canada than WNism. And coincedently he is actually from Nazi Germany 









						Klaus Schwab - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Nice to see members call disenting voices "stupid"...


Trust me Bruce, you get used to it. It happens a lot.😉


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

The thread got stupid. I didn’t aim that word at any individual members. No need to. Points made either do or don’t stand up on their own merits.


----------



## Weinie (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> The thread got stupid. I didn’t aim that word at any individual members. No need to. *Points made either do or don’t stand up on their own merits.*


And that's an opinion.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> The thread got stupid. I didn’t aim that word at any individual members. No need to. Points made either do or don’t stand up on their own merits.


You seem to be the outlier. The rest of us were having a good discussion. As far as things not going along with the theme, that is a chronic problem in any thread around here. Most every one ends in some sort of tangent.
We didn't  pick the subject of scorn to lay blame against. This government did.


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> And that's an opinion.


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You seem to be the outlier. The rest of us were having a good discussion. As far as things not going along with the theme, that is a chronic problem in any thread around here. Most every one ends in some sort of tangent.
> We didn't  pick the subject of scorn to lay blame against. This government did.


Indeed- discussion ensued, with much gnashing of teeth, a lot of it divorced from any appreciable understanding of what’s actually being reported on. There hasn’t been much particularly informed or nuanced talk about our independent intelligence oversight body’s assessment of CAF’s struggles to keep pace with and address a tangible security threat. Instead there’s been everything from abject denial that that threat actually exists (it does, and the entire domestic national security infrastructure has seen that for years and is grappling with it), to complete red herrings and ‘whatabouts’.

So yeah, a serious subject has, sadly, elicited pretty unserious response.



Weinie said:


> And that's an opinion.



Yes, it is only that. I suppose we each adopt the perspectives that have served us in our respective lines of work.


----------



## Weinie (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Indeed- discussion ensued, with much gnashing of teeth, a lot of it divorced from any appreciable understanding of what’s actually being reported on. There hasn’t been much particularly informed or nuanced talk about our independent intelligence oversight body’s assessment of CAF’s struggles to keep pace with and address a tangible security threat. Instead there’s been everything from abject denial that that threat actually exists (it does, and the entire domestic national security infrastructure has seen that for years and is grappling with it), to complete red herrings and ‘whatabouts’.
> 
> So yeah, a serious subject has, sadly, elicited pretty unserious response.
> 
> ...


If your lines of work adopt the perspective that "this is stupid" because it doesn't fit your line of work narrative, that is stupid. You are not omniscient.


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> And you jump in to defend the RCMP at *every *occasion. Touche.


That’s patently false. Feel free to search and review my posting history if you’re confused about that. Also, this is largely a thread about NSIRA and CAF.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> None of this is information that you, I, or anyone else in this thread needs special insight to understand. This is very foundational information for anyone who takes an interest in national security. I’m simply disappointed to see people jumping off half cocked without even attempting that basic understanding. I think some people are being defensive, thinking this is some sort of woke political BS or something when it’s really just sound national security work.


I actually didn't see it being denied,....I saw folks saying there were far bigger problems to deal with first......and then out of the blue they were all "stupid'.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2022)

Back on track - these people are a threat. They use the knowledge they gain against Canada, and when they are caught guess who the bad guys are?

The CAF - you saw that about two or more years ago with that imbecile in Winnipeg.


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> I actually didn't see it being denied,....I saw folks saying there were far bigger problems to deal with first......and then out of the blue they were all "stupid'.


There were a couple direct or thinly veiled denials of it in the first couple pages.

Again, the thread got stupid from a combination of things. I’m not calling any individuals stupid.


----------



## Weinie (15 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> That’s patently false. Feel free to search and review my posting history if you’re confused about that. Also, this is largely a thread about NSIRA and CAF.


Your posting history is mainly how we idiots have no knowledge how policing or security matters are conducted, so listen to our betters.

I object to your categorizing that the thread descended into stupidity because it didn't follow your narrative.


----------



## Remius (15 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> Your posting history is mainly how we idiots have no knowledge how policing or security matters are conducted, so listen to our betters.
> 
> I object to your categorizing that the thread descended into to stupidity because it didn't follow your narrative.


Yeah, because informed posts are a terrible thing for some when it doesn’t follow theirs. 

This thread should be binned.


----------



## brihard (15 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> Your posting history is mainly how we idiots have no knowledge how policing or security matters are conducted, so listen to our betters.
> 
> I object to your categorizing that the thread descended into stupidity because it didn't follow your narrative.


Your words, not mine. You’ve now deliberately mischaracterized my posts (and now my entire posting history) several times in quick succession.

What I’ve yet to see you do is actually engage the subject of the thread. That’s unfortunate, because you DO have a ton of experience and likely some knowledge and insight I and others would find interesting and valuable, even if we might not have the same opinion or reach the same conclusions. If you were to choose to actually draw on your extensive knowledge and experience and contribute, that would probably add value.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Your words, not mine. You’ve now deliberately mischaracterized my posts (and now my entire posting history) several times in quick succession.
> 
> What I’ve yet to see you do is actually engage the subject of the thread. That’s unfortunate, because you DO have a ton of experience and likely some knowledge and insight I and others would find interesting and valuable, even if we might not have the same opinion or reach the same conclusions. If you were to choose to actually draw on your extensive knowledge and experience and contribute, that would probably add value.


Ummmmmmmm. Distraction from your posts where you called "stupid" twice.


----------



## brihard (16 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> Ummmmmmmm. Distraction from your posts where you called "stupid" twice.


If any actual individual feels I have called them ‘stupid’, or anything like it, I invite them to address it with me either publicly or privately, whatever they’re comfortable with. If that’s you, then simply say so and we’ll hash it out and square it like the adults we both are. If that’s not you and you’re just taking vicarious offense for something someone else may or may not feel, fine, but IMO it’s adding nothing to the thread.

I’ve said my bit - a couple of times now - on the actual subject of the thread and the report it refers to. I’ll check back in if anyone actually wants to take up any of the real substance of the subject. Yourself included.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> If any actual individual feels I have called them ‘stupid’, or anything like it, I invite them to address it with me either publicly or privately, whatever they’re comfortable with. If that’s you, then simply say so and we’ll hash it out and square it like the adults we both are. If that’s not you and you’re just taking vicarious offense for something someone else may or may not feel, fine, but IMO it’s adding nothing to the thread.
> 
> I’ve said my bit - a couple of times now - on the actual subject of the thread and the report it refers to. I’ll check back in if anyone actually wants to take up any of the real substance of the subject. Yourself included.


Vicarious offense??????? You called posters comments  "stupid" twice. You do not get to to choose what posters opinions are. What arrogance.


----------



## Navy_Pete (16 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Back on track - these people are a threat. They use the knowledge they gain against Canada, and when they are caught guess who the bad guys are?
> 
> The CAF - you saw that about two or more years ago with that imbecile in Winnipeg.


Sure, but how many people are we talking about? So far two made the news; both have been released.

I would agree that white nationalist are a threat (as are many other extremists), my personal object was the suggestion the CAF get 'proactive' to root out members that may have gotten through the screening or developed WN leanings later in life. But the reportings of intentional WN actively joining the CAF to gain those skills seems to be really limited, and would be separate from random people doing racist things (without some kind of overarching agenda).

Members who become aware that their wingers have WN views (social media postings etc) and report them to the CoC is reactive. Taking action if someone does something racist is reactive. Similarly if some RCMP folks find a CAF member is participating in WN and passes that onto the CAF that is also reactive (on the CAF's part).

I don't see 'being proactive' as anything short of actively surveilling CAF members. Doesn't really matter what we do, we make easy targets and good villains. Doesn't mean I want to have some random secret squirrel trolling through my personal life 'just in case'.

Is it a potential threat? Sure. but there has been no evidence that it's nothing but a very limited number of people (single digits?), which really is insignificant, and a distraction from the very real national security threat that large parts of the CAF is in a material and personnel death spiral which is having a very real impact on actual operational capability. Nothing publically available suggest that this is a threat that requires us to change our actual approach of applying existing policies and punting people if they actually do something.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> You’re being deliberately obtuse. You’re a communications professional, you’re well aware of what I did and did not say.
> 
> My line of work is following evidence and facts, reasoning them towards defensible conclusions if there are conclusions to be drawn, and where warranted, providing that information for other parties to act on through processes prescribed in law. Yours, and I’m not saying this at all perjoratively, has generally been to present information and narratives in a way that favours CAF as an institution and that furthers military objectives. There’s nothing wrong with that. We’re both playing for the same side, but with different approaches to the respective value of public perception and narratives versus objective data and intelligence.
> 
> ...


The CAF hasn't kept up anything since we left Afghanistan. Our CAFNIS isn't  special. Every CAF org ends up in silos of entrenched ideas.

NSIRA is an arms length government body. That doesn't mean much when your own force is supposed to be an arms length government body and we all know how much truth there is to that. The RCMP have made arms length a joke. The command structure made a mockery of that and that casts doubt on all government organizations.

And finally, your complaint that nobody is discussing the subject the way you want. There are numerous threads where you yourself have left the subject and gone off on tangents. We all do it. Know your audience.


----------



## QV (16 Nov 2022)

My concern is the term WN will just be used as a tool to smear and threaten any person opposed to progressive left policies, like how the terms misogynist and racist are used now or when a person comments on the “whiteness” of a group of people in an effort to delegitimization their position.

In any case, here is a list of things that may be of more concern:









						Alleged RCMP mole accused of selling secrets to kingpin money launderer and terror-financier’s network  | Globalnews.ca
					

A 2014 probe originally targeted international money launderers. It eventually exposed an RCMP mole.




					globalnews.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/hydro-quebec-china-spy-1.6650832
		










						Whereabouts of fired Winnipeg scientists at centre of national-security investigation still unclear
					

RCMP are conducting a criminal investigation into allegations related to the scientists’ time at the National Microbiology Laboratory




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mps-probe-chinese-interference-elections-1.6651121
		










						The RCMP is investigating Chinese ‘police’ stations in Canada. Here’s what to know - National | Globalnews.ca
					

In a statement to Global News, the RCMP said it is aware that foreign states may seek to intimidate or harm communities or individuals within Canada.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

Liberal anathema

Pride and Property.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

QV said:


> My concern is the term WN will just be used as a tool to smear and threaten any person opposed to progressive left policies, like how the terms misogynist and racist are used now or when a person comments on the “whiteness” of a group of people in an effort to delegitimization their position.
> 
> In any case, here is a list of things that may be of more concern:
> 
> ...





brihard said:


> You’re being deliberately obtuse. You’re a communications professional, you’re well aware of what I did and did not say.
> 
> My line of work is following evidence and facts, reasoning them towards defensible conclusions if there are conclusions to be drawn, and where warranted, providing that information for other parties to act on through processes prescribed in law. Yours, and I’m not saying this at all perjoratively, has generally been to present information and narratives in a way that favours CAF as an institution and that furthers military objectives. There’s nothing wrong with that. We’re both playing for the same side, but with different approaches to the respective value of public perception and narratives versus objective data and intelligence.
> 
> ...


So who is being really "obtuse" here.


----------



## ModlrMike (16 Nov 2022)

Points to consider:

1. There will always be bad actors looking to take advantage;
2. We will seldom be ready when they reveal themselves; and
3. Our best response is to ensure that we have robust measures to deal with them.

We can do little regarding points 1 and 2, and on point 3 I think we've made substantial progress. I disagree with the article that we are unprepared to deal with the problem. I do not disagree that a problem exists, but short of thought police, there's little we can do until these folks out themselves.

The sky is not falling.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Nov 2022)

Back to the topic at hand 😉

I'm going to call BS on this latest round of "White Supremacy is a major problem in the CAF".  

The Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section has done studies on this and they actually made a study public after the Proud Boys incident in Halifax a few years ago.

What did they find?



> The report by the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Section said *16 members of the armed forces* *and reserves* had been associated with hate groups.
> 
> They were active in the Proud Boys, Atomwaffen Division, La Meute, Hammerskins Nation, III% and Soldiers of Odin, said the report obtained by Global News.



Here are some actual figures and trends:







> The study said *16 members of the armed forces had been linked to hate groups*, and another *37 were alleged to have engaged in racist or hate-motivated conduct between 2013 and 2018*, that *represented only 0.1 per cent of the military population*.



The report concluded:



> *“At this time, given the extremely small number of CAF members identified as belonging to hate groups and/or being involved in possible hate-motivated incidents, hate groups do not pose any significant threat to the CAF/DND,”*











						Canadian Armed Forces members linked to six hate groups: internal report - National | Globalnews.ca
					

A newly-released internal report says 16 armed forces members have been linked to hate groups.




					globalnews.ca
				




Talk about making mountains out of mole hills!  I bet you I could find more "white supremacy" if I walked down to the local pub.  I think the NSIRA report is sensationalized and politically motivated garbage.  

Also, the respective Police Forces of this Country, and *especially the RCMP*, whose red serge may as well be brown at this point because of how  💩 💩 💩  stained the organization is, might want to look in the mirror before they call out the Military on these issues.

I'll remember what a serious organization they are next time one of their elite operators decides to go for a drunken joyride to burger king in a police cruiser and assault some lesser officers from the municipals 🤣.


----------



## ueo (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> Are there racist idiots out there? Yes there is.
> Are there some in the CAF? Yes there is.
> Are they a threat to the nation of Canada? Not at all.
> 
> ...


Ummmm FLQ pops up.


----------



## FSTO (16 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Ummmm FLQ pops up.


In the big scheme of things the FLQ were a very small (but dedicated) group. And if you called them White Nationalists today the Quebec Intelligencia would be extremely upset.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Back to the topic at hand 😉
> 
> I'm going to call BS on this latest round of "White Supremacy is a major problem in the CAF".
> 
> ...



This should be the CAF response to that article.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> This should be the CAF response to that article.


----------



## Halifax Tar (16 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


>



The truth is beautiful.  But then again I find Battleships, A10s and Tanks beautiful.  So beauty is in the eye of the beholder  

What is defiantly ugly is politics.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> In the big scheme of things the FLQ were a very small (but dedicated) group. And if you called them White Nationalists today the Quebec Intelligencia would be extremely upset.





> *Pierre Vallières* (22 February 1938 – 23 December 1998) was a Québécois journalist and writer, known as an intellectual leader of the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) and author of _Nègres blancs d'Amérique_, translated as White Niggers of America.











						Pierre Vallières - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Pierre Vallières - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was he a VanDoo?


----------



## brihard (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Nice to see this thread got exactly as stupid as I figured it would…


All- this was a useless and unnecessary comment. I’d like to apologize for my part in the thread detail that ensued.

I’ll be back to this later and will keep my replies topical.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> All- this was a useless and unnecessary comment. I’d like to apologize for my part in the thread detail that ensued.
> 
> I’ll be back to this later and will keep my replies topical.


@brihard  it's a credit to you as a person that you're able to walk back like this.  

It shows a level of maturity that is severely lacking in so many today.

You're contributions to this thread and others are valuable.  Don't be gone too long!


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> You're contributions to this thread and others are valuable.







FSTO said:


> Are there racist idiots out there? Yes there is.



Yes there are, judging by the discussions,









						Widespread systemic racism in Canadian military ‘repulsing’ new recruits: report
					

New report released about racism is the CAF and DND. Coles notes, we aren't doing good  https://globalnews.ca/news/8784238/canadian-forces-systemic-racism-repulsing-new-recruits/




					www.milnet.ca
				












						Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
					

Evening.....while this thread is US-Centric, lets not kid ourselves that Canada is any better. Yes the US has over 300 million people compared to our over 30 million people, but the same 'fracture' can be seen once you move out of the major cities i.e. Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Ottawa.  One...




					www.milnet.ca
				












						Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
					

Hello,  Just an observation of things as they currently are within the system regarding Institutional Racism.  Nowadays, no one will be stupid enough to go up to someone‘s face and start insulting them with racial epithets or behaviour.  Instead,  they will make a soldier‘s life miserable by...




					www.milnet.ca
				












						Reservist probed for 'racist activity' as police prepare for white pride rally
					

This from the Calagry herald shared with the usual disclaimer.  As Calgary police gear up to monitor a white pride rally on Saturday, a Winnipeg-based teenage Canadian Forces member who’s apparently intending to attend the event is being investigated by the military over “serious allegations of...




					army.ca
				












						White Supremacist Infiltration of Canadian Forces?
					

In the past 24 hrs, there has been talk in the media that U.S. white supremacist groups may be infiltrating the Canadian Forces with Canada's CF National Counter-Intelligence Unit being made aware of the situation last year.  A quick search of the keywords will provide some articles.  Threat or...




					army.ca
				




etc...

They remind me of the 30-second lecture we got on the subject 50 years ago,

"You come to us from _a_ _society_ _with_ _many_ prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat _a_nyone _with_ disrespect, we will change your employment."


----------



## Remius (16 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Sure, but how many people are we talking about? So far two made the news; both have been released.


Probably only a few on the grand scale. The issue is that the problem is growing.


Navy_Pete said:


> I would agree that white nationalist are a threat (as are many other extremists), my personal object was the suggestion the CAF get 'proactive' to root out members that may have gotten through the screening or developed WN leanings later in life. But the reportings of intentional WN actively joining the CAF to gain those skills seems to be really limited, and would be separate from random people doing racist things (without some kind of overarching agenda).


Being proactive may be to address and clarify some of the weaknesses in being able to identify indicators and reporting mechanisms.


Navy_Pete said:


> Members who become aware that their wingers have WN views (social media postings etc) and report them to the CoC is reactive. Taking action if someone does something racist is reactive. Similarly if some RCMP folks find a CAF member is participating in WN and passes that onto the CAF that is also reactive (on the CAF's part).


As mentioned, some proactive measures could be to provide the necessary tools and or training


Navy_Pete said:


> I don't see 'being proactive' as anything short of actively surveilling CAF members. Doesn't really matter what we do, we make easy targets and good villains. Doesn't mean I want to have some random secret squirrel trolling through my personal life 'just in case'.


More in depth security screening would be a good step especially at the lower level.  But again, we likely don’t have the ressources to do that to that extent.  But yes, maybe online searches at that level.


Navy_Pete said:


> Is it a potential threat? Sure. but there has been no evidence that it's nothing but a very limited number of people (single digits?), which really is insignificant, and a distraction from the very real national security threat that large parts of the CAF is in a material and personnel death spiral which is having a very real impact on actual operational capability. Nothing publically available suggest that this is a threat that requires us to change our actual approach of applying existing policies and punting people if they actually do something.



This is a good point.  However how much damage can that limited number of people do?  From a reputation standpoint point a heck of a lot.  Especially if no quantifiable effort is in place to stop or limit them.

This is an interesting report.



			https://icct.nl/app/uploads/2022/05/Right-wing-extremism-in-the-military-1.pdf
		


Now it is rather broad and covers several western nations and similar issues.  One of the conclusions is that each country has the issue but it varies depending on the country. (Yes Canada is featured in some parts).

 NOTE:  It deals with right wing extremism and the military.  Not right wing extremism as a whole

However it does identify and looks into some of the consequences as part of the right wing extremism in the military nexus.

(1) commit acts of terrorism or political violence;
(2) provide material support or training for right-wing extremist groups;
(3) commit ideologically motivated hate crimes or violate procedures and rules of en gagement while on deployment;
(4) hamper diversity and inclusion efforts by militaries; and
(5) disrupt the civilian-military power dynamic.

Now the conclusions are quite similar to what some are saying and supports the argument that all of these are few and far between.

 The one finding I did find surprising is under #2 where they concluded that military training was more of a status thing in these groups rather than an active act to get people trained up for acts of political violence.  With some exceptions of course.

But the end statement reinforces that while being a smaller problem than one may think, it is a growing one.



_Given the variety of ways in which the right-wing extremism-military nexus can create problems, dealing
with this challenge necessitates a bespoke approach. However, whatever such an approach may entail, it begins with the political will to recognise the severity of the problem. This research paper is a starting point towards recognising and understanding the problem, but it will have little impact if governments and military organisations turn a blind eye._


----------



## Journeyman (16 Nov 2022)

For those wishing to read, _NSRIA Review 2019-01_ is at 


			https://nsira-ossnr.gc.ca/wp-content/uploads/CFNCIU-2019-01-REDACTED-EN.pdf
		


CSIS' _2021 National Security Threats_ (scroll down to IMVE) is available at





						Threats to Canada's National Security - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca


----------



## Kat Stevens (16 Nov 2022)

But there are no white nationalists in Zimbabwe or Nigeria, so it all evens out in the end.


----------



## Good2Golf (16 Nov 2022)

Journeyman said:


> For those wishing to read, _NSRIA Review 2019-01_ is at
> 
> 
> https://nsira-ossnr.gc.ca/wp-content/uploads/CFNCIU-2019-01-REDACTED-EN.pdf
> ...


Interesting that there wasn’t more detail on how a government can avoid fanning the flames  credibly pre-empt and resolve the IMVE threat…and indeed PMVE as well (looking forward to next year’s report update to see how the ‘PMVE in 2022’ narrative is written).


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Nov 2022)

How, and why, did this get released in the middle of a public inquiry that could possibly have overlap issues?

Of course we all know this is a potential problem, and good on folks for watching/reporting this crap,  but like has been pointed out previously, there are hundreds of other problems also.   So one must ask why one of those weren't released last Monday instead of one that could be an assist to the sitting Govt. over the use of the EA.

Even if it is 100% coincidence.....it either speaks to total amateurism by this arms length group,....or they aren't so "arm's length."


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

The problem isn't the assessment or the assessors.  The problem is politicians and media and activists.  They like to single out stuff that fits in the "right-wing white extremism" silo and popularize and inflame it, while ignoring (or close to) other security issues that don't suit.  That distorts public understanding.  The distortion is deliberate - to influence political and social change.  But the distortion also affects the ability of organizations and agencies to rank and focus on their entire collections of issues.  If more serious risks are less attended relative to potential impact, that's a problem.

Imagine if we had a single thread here for that stuff (white extremism/terrorism), and basically only one or two other threads for everything else.  Why would that be necessary?


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

John Robson: The retired general who spoke truth about Canadian wokeness
		


From this morning, lightly touches on this thread's topic.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The problem isn't the assessment or the assessors.  The problem is politicians and media and activists.  They like to single out stuff that fits in the "right-wing white extremism" silo and popularize and inflame it, while ignoring (or close to) other security issues that don't suit.  That distorts public understanding.  The distortion is deliberate - to influence political and social change.  But the distortion also affects the ability of organizations and agencies to rank and focus on their entire collections of issues.  If more serious risks are less attended relative to potential impact, that's a problem.
> 
> Imagine if we had a single thread here for that stuff (white extremism/terrorism), and basically only one or two other threads for everything else.  Why would that be necessary?


My response stands. FFS. Really?


----------



## Eaglelord17 (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> In the big scheme of things the FLQ were a very small (but dedicated) group. And if you called them White Nationalists today the Quebec Intelligencia would be extremely upset.


Most of Canada would be pretty upset if you pointed out to them that our nation was basically founded on white supremacy and their great grandparents were all part of it.

Boer War? Bunch of Dutch colonialists discovered gold in the land they took control of in Africa and now the British want it. WWI? Thats a white mans war, leave the recruiting office. WWII still similar feeling but not as bad as the previous war. Both sides were white supremists though, one side just claiming their white was more superior than the others.

That all being said in the last 80 years as a society we have made huge strides to move away from that and create a better society. Is there still racists and white supremicists? Yes. But there is certainly substantially less than there was then.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

Well, what we seem to have is a thread for Muslim terrorism (maybe understandable, given magnitude of events and consequences over past 20+ years) and one for non-Muslim.  But the latter mainly seems to be a posting board for white extremism/terrorism headlines.


----------



## ueo (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> In the big scheme of things the FLQ were a very small (but dedicated) group. And if you called them White Nationalists today the Quebec Intelligencia would be extremely upset.


A spade is still a shovel.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> John Robson: The retired general who spoke truth about Canadian wokeness
> 
> 
> 
> From this morning, lightly touches on this thread's topic.


He delivered a much needed kick in the nards, 

Good 👍🏻


----------



## Quirky (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> John Robson: The retired general who spoke truth about Canadian wokeness
> 
> 
> 
> From this morning, lightly touches on this thread's topic.



I mostly agree, all these recent changes to dress regs for example are purely for recruitment purposes and thanks to the current government's general wokeness, nothing else. I don't believe for a second these types of things would be thought of during the Afghanistan days.

We are a bored, ill-equipped and directionless military.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> I mostly agree, all these recent changes to dress regs for example are purely for recruitment purposes and thanks to the current government's general wokeness, nothing else. I don't believe for a second these types of things would be thought of during the Afghanistan days.
> 
> *We are a bored, ill-equipped and directionless military.*


And I am glad I retired.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

One thing I remember from a couple of encounters with the less extreme fringe of the fringe extreme community: don't underestimate the numbers of those people who are just "walts" who want to trade on as little as a few weeks actual experience as a Res F, as a former cadet, or as someone who once worked in proximity to someone wearing a uniform.


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

Not to be cliche, but I'm going to go ahead and push back on the idea that the FLQ had anything to do with white supremacy. To suggest so is just more perplexing than anything. Betrays a certain ignorance, certainly. But, by all means, if you've got any evidence to support that notion, put it forth.

It also wasn't a ''very small'' group, it was actually surprisingly large.

@Kirkhill what's your point about Pierre Vallières?


----------



## Navy_Pete (16 Nov 2022)

Coming soon to a DLN near you; 'Don't be a literal Nazi', a self directed learning module.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

The FLQ was about some kind of cultural supremacy.  As broad as the Francophonie is, I don't think they had their Caribbean, African, Asian, etc brethren in mind.  But there's a useful point to observe: that there's a difference between "X which also happens to have the characteristic Y", and "X is Y".  More people ought bear it in mind.


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The FLQ was about some kind of cultural supremacy.  As broad as the Francophonie is, I don't think they had their Caribbean, African, Asian, etc brethren in mind.  But there's a useful point to observe: that there's a difference between "X which also happens to have the characteristic Y", and "X is Y".  More people ought bear it in mind.


That's just not accurate.

The FLQ was, if anything, the stark opposite. They were left-leaning, many were communists and there was even a connection with the KGB. Not unlike their counterparts in Europe, then, such as the Baader-Meinhof group.

Communism has long been internationalist, not supremacist.

The problem of white supremacy is not the problem of nationalism itself. It is nationalism taken to its extreme. Just like corporate cronyism is not capitalism, but rather, its warped, lopsided and corrupt alter ego. I believe in the virtue of nationalism and am appalled when I hear a Prime Minister advocate for the idea of a post-national Canada.

As with everything, _la modération a bien meilleur goût._


----------



## daftandbarmy (16 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Coming soon to a DLN near you; 'Don't be a literal Nazi', a self directed learning module.



Luckily, there's a CAO about all that resulting from earlier inquiries into 'hateful conduct'. I think this is really good policy, not that I'm a policy expert or anything, and whoever wrote it did a great job!






						Canadian Army Order 11-82 Hateful Conduct - Canada.ca
					

This Canadian Army Order (CAO) applies to all Canadian Army (CA) personnel of the Regular Force at all times, the Reserve force and the Canadian Rangers when subject to the Code of Service Discipline as per Section 60 of the National Defence Act.




					www.canada.ca
				






			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/canadian-military-tool-identifies-hateful-conduct-1.5652276
		



And some more stuff on the subject from earlier this year. Auditors tend to circle like sharks when their recommendations, from earlier reports, aren't apparently being implemented:

The issue of right-wing extremism in the Canadian military first burst into the public domain in 2017 following an incident in Halifax in which a group of sailors associated with the Proud Boys disrupted an Indigenous ceremony. A military intelligence report later linked dozens of Armed Forces members to extremist groups, and warned that such organizations were actively recruiting or otherwise trying to infiltrate the military to gain training, experience and equipment. In one high-profile case, a former reservist from Manitoba who was a member of a neo-Nazi group was sentenced in the United States to nine years in prison for what investigators called a violent plot to trigger a "race war."

The panel was critical of what they saw as the Armed Forces' failure to act on hundreds of previous recommendations and reports designed to address some of these issues. "Over the past 20 years, reports from 41 inquiries, panels, boards, climate surveys and reviews have generated 258 recommendations to address diversity, inclusion, respect and professional conduct," retired major Sandra Perron said during the news conference.

"When this advisory panel tried to identify the progress on these recommendations, it became immediately clear that many of them were poorly implemented, shelved or even discarded." Anand acknowledged those failures, and suggested the time for action has finally come, noting the establishment of several working groups and other bodies as well as new monitoring and reporting mechanisms to make things happen.

Canadian military not doing enough to detect, prevent extremism in the ranks: report


----------



## blacktriangle (16 Nov 2022)

Early on in my career, I definitely remember derogatory comments being made about certain identifiable groups by instructors/supervisors. I also remember rants about women by those that had experienced messy divorces etc, and just a general lack of respect for women (even other serving members)

Being bombarded by that kind of crap at 17-18, by people in positions of authority, doesn't help a new recruit become a more well-adjusted member of the military/society.

Looking back, some of these folks were probably dealing with their own mental baggage from operational experiences. Others were probably just racist/misogynist assholes. Either way, they were in need of some serious deprogramming, but were instead tasked with programming the next generation.

So while it's prudent to make sure you aren't bringing in external hire extremists, it probably doesn't hurt to make sure you aren't breeding them internally.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> That's just not accurate.
> 
> The FLQ was, if anything, the stark opposite. They were left-leaning, many were communists and there was even a connection with the KGB. Not unlike their counterparts in Europe, then, such as the Baader-Meinhof group.


If you think European (Russian-backed) communists were not under the thumb of people at the top who believed in their own cultural supremacy, you misunderstand history.  "Communism" is a political description, not a guarantor of ethnic/culture/race equity.  People in the Russian sphere of influence were never really equal to ethnic Russians.


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If you think European (Russian-backed) communists were not under the thumb of people at the top who believed in their own cultural supremacy, you misunderstand history.  "Communism" is a political description, not a guarantor of ethnic/culture/race equity.  People in the Russian sphere of influence were never really equal to ethnic Russians.


Two fallacies in one, I tip my hat. 

It's a *strawman* to say I ever denied that. I am acutely aware of, especially, racism in the higher spheres of Russian communism.

But you're *moving the goalpost* here. We are not talking about elites. The topic at hand was lowly armed insurrectionists. 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I just don't understand what you're getting at with the phrase ''cultural supremacy'' but that's something you'll have to define and explain how it relates in any way to White Supremacy, because I don't see it.


----------



## Quirky (16 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> And I am glad I retired.



There are worse things you can do for a paycheque every two weeks.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

I didn't write that you denied racism.  But you did try to draw a connection from "left-leading" to "not supremacist" based on mere definitions rather than actual human behaviour, and dragged in the Russian KGB to verify their communist connection.

I didn't move a goalpost.  I was illustrating the point that political definitions don't prevent ethno-chauvinism.

[On cultural supremacy: when people say "race", they mean at minimum ethnicity (sometimes very narrowly a genetically defined ethnicity) and usually a particular mix of ethnicity and culture.  All of humanity should be one race.  (Yes, I'm familiar with the long-standing compartmentalization into 4 - sometimes 5 - races.)  When people say "white supremacy", they mean a particular kind of culture.  The FLQ was fighting for a particular cultural supremacy.  Based on the way QC sometimes expresses itself politically, I'm not convinced there is an absence of cultural chauvinism along fairly narrow lines.]


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> I didn't write that you denied racism.  But you did try to draw a connection from "left-leading" to "not supremacist" based on mere definitions rather than actual human behaviour, and dragged in the Russian KGB to verify their communist connection.


I understand the point you're making. I'm not merely applying "definitions" however. I'm describing my lived experience as a Quebeccer.


Brad Sallows said:


> I didn't move a goalpost.  I was illustrating the point that political definitions don't prevent ethno-chauvinism.
> 
> [On cultural supremacy: when people say "race", they mean at minimum ethnicity (sometimes very narrowly a genetically defined ethnicity) and usually a particular mix of ethnicity and culture.  All of humanity should be one race.  (Yes, I'm familiar with the long-standing compartmentalization into 4 - sometimes 5 - races.)  When people say "white supremacy", they mean a particular kind of culture.





Brad Sallows said:


> The FLQ was fighting for a particular cultural supremacy.


Incorrect.


Brad Sallows said:


> Based on the way QC sometimes expresses itself politically, I'm not convinced there is an absence of cultural chauvinism along fairly narrow lines.]


Characteristic misunderstanding of Quebec. 

I don't know why you're hanging on to this for dear life. There wasn't a shred of supremacism in the FLQ's ideology. No one goes around saying "Quebec uber alles" or variations thereof.

I understand how you may have been the target of propaganda efforts (if you were alive at the time) that made such claims, but this idea is not rooted in reality.

To be clear: there is no correlation, at all, between the historical facts and what you are suggesting right now.

You're making an outlandish claim, it's long past time that you provide evidence for it or start keeping that idea to yourself.


----------



## ArmyRick (16 Nov 2022)

On White Supremacy/Nationalism/Racism/Bad people of European Descent.  Jim Brought up good points. I am biased and listen carefully to Jim S because he was one of my early mentors and I hold huge respect for him.   

My military brothers, its like forest fires/wild fires. Sometimes its little burning areas that take minimal effort to snuff out.  Other times, Its starts small and builds momentum quickly, next thing you know, its BC Summer 2021, wild and out of control. 

Lets treat this BS racist conduct like it is. If you see small grumblings or suggestions ("Damn immigrants...", "Those f-ing Insert racist term here", "Hey those XXX should leave their Beliefs/religion/etc behind") Snuff it out HARD. Its a bottom up effort. Take away its "fuel Load" quickly and knock its growth off immediately.


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> ... My military brothers, its like forest fires/wild fires. Sometimes its little burning areas that take minimal effort to snuff out.  Other times, Its starts small and builds momentum quickly, next thing you know, its BC Summer 2021, wild and out of control ...


Great analogy - it's only a smouldering cigarette butt, unless it leads to more.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> On White Supremacy/Nationalism/Racism/Bad people of European Descent.


I was listening to a podcast - actually a few - and it seems the Spanish and Portugese don't have clean hands either. Nor do the Dutch, the French etc etc


----------



## FSTO (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Not to be cliche, but I'm going to go ahead and push back on the idea that the FLQ had anything to do with white supremacy. To suggest so is just more perplexing than anything. Betrays a certain ignorance, certainly. But, by all means, if you've got any evidence to support that notion, put it forth.
> 
> It also wasn't a ''very small'' group, it was actually surprisingly large.
> 
> @Kirkhill what's your point about Pierre Vallières?


So this is directed at me.
I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM

To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.

Yes they had broad support initially, but how many more people were willing to take up arms against the federal government? Not enough to cause a revolution on the scale we’ve seen in other countries (Vietnam, Algeria, Ireland)


----------



## TacticalTea (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> So this is directed at me.
> I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM


Much like Junior had to employ propaganda to convince Canadians of the necessity of invoking the EA, Senior did the same for its contemporary equivalent.


FSTO said:


> To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.


I understand where you're coming from, as there is a notion of ''pure laine'' in Quebec - albeit it is used much more often to comedically denigrate nationalism than to actually exclude others. Sure, you'll find the occasional racist, just like everywhere.

But in essence, that is a misunderstanding of what Quebec nationalism consists of. It is not a nationalism that says ''we are better than others'' but rather, one that says we are different, have different priorities and values than the rest of the country and continent, and need to empower ourselves to protect that way of life. It is in no small part a reaction to the domination of the anglosphere in Quebec's corporate and political sectors.

Again, it has nothing to do with white supremacy. That is fantasy. It originated in cosmopolitan Montreal and remains internationalist to this day. All parties advocating for it can be described as social-democrats.



FSTO said:


> Yes they had broad support initially, but how many more people were willing to take up arms against the federal government? Not enough to cause a revolution on the scale we’ve seen in other countries (Vietnam, Algeria, Ireland)


More a consequence of culture than numbers.


----------



## FSTO (16 Nov 2022)

I agrée with pretty much all of your points. I think a few Quebec Black Activist would have an issue with no white supremacy in Quebec.


----------



## Furniture (16 Nov 2022)

I'm curious to see how the CAF plans to spend more time spying on members, while also dealing with a retention crisis.

I keep my personal stuff off CAF systems because I like to keep my life separate from my job. I'm not thrilled by the idea of a white nationalism commisar spying on my personal life on the off chance I've somehow become radicalized.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I'm curious to see how the CAF plans to spend more time spying on members, while also dealing with a retention crisis.
> 
> I keep my personal stuff off CAF systems because I like to keep my life separate from my job. I'm not thrilled by the idea of a white nationalism commisar spying on my personal life on the off chance I've somehow become radicalized.


Ahh, that's  the ticket. Political Officers in every platoon.


----------



## Kirkhill (16 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> So this is directed at me.
> I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM
> 
> To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.
> ...



FSTO 

It honestly wasn't directed at anyone.  I was referencing how vocabulary morphs and changes.  In the 70s the FLQ wanted to play up victimhood so they aligned themselves with the US Black Rights Matters of the day - the Black Panthers and the Weathermen etc.  They consciously called themselves White Niggers.   They were White.  They co-opted Black victimology to demonstrate that they were as much Victims of White Anglo Saxon Protestant culture as the Blacks.   Bit of a turnabout from local attitudes in the 1930s.  And again from current attitudes.

Just like Gay and Feminist.  Judgemental and Discriminating.  Vocabulary.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

So what was the FLQ fighting for, if not a particular culture?

I have lived experience as a white man, but that doesn't mean I understand the malcontents on the fringes of society today, let alone those who were adults 50-odd years ago.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> But in essence, that is a misunderstanding of what Quebec nationalism consists of. It is not a nationalism that says ''we are better than others'' but rather, one that says we are different, have different priorities and values than the rest of the country and continent, and need to empower ourselves to protect that way of life. It is in no small part a reaction to the domination of the anglosphere in Quebec's corporate and political sectors.


In other words, supremacy of the priorities, the values, the way of life - the culture.  They were planning to set up their socialist Francophone state and not place their language and culture above those of the all the non-Francophones?


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Characteristic misunderstanding of Quebec.


I'm going by what they legislate.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Nov 2022)

I think that every culture wants to dominate its own kitchen table.  Beyond that it wants to feel comfortable as it goes through its daily life.  That means keeping the number of surprises, pleasant or unpleasant, to a minimum.  Preferably to be encountered at manageable rate.

I'm old fashioned enough to believe in Property.  The table is my table. My table, my rules. No surprises.
I am happy enough to invite new people to my table on my timeline.  I can accommodate the occasional transgression from the well meaning.  I can't tolerate being told how to live at my own table.  Especially by people I invited to my table.

Away from my table, outside of my house, my toleration increases.   But after 50 years of abrasion - even the most thick skin can be thinned.

I understand why the various native cultures don't want to be homogenized and want to retain their identities.  I understand the same wish amongst Blacks, French, Spaniards, Catalans, Basque, Bavarians, Scots, Irish, Hutu and Tutsi - even Han.  And Quebecers.

Best advice I was ever given was given before I went to school.  Never mock somebody for their beliefs.  Especially their religion.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> So this is directed at me.
> I was 9 years old when this was going on. I remember the “go ahead and bleed” statement from the PM
> 
> To me the FLQ was a group dedicated to the independence of Quebec and indirectly keeping it “pure lain” (pardon my piss poor French) and therefore is another version of white supremacy.
> ...


I was 13. 

I’m from Saskatchewan and it was reported that the FLQ was all for an independent Quebec free from Anglo pig dogs (I made that up).

Once they murder Mr Laporte shit got serious. 

That’s what they were - murderers


----------



## ueo (17 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The FLQ was about some kind of cultural supremacy.  As broad as the Francophonie is, I don't think they had their Caribbean, African, Asian, etc brethren in mind.  But there's a useful point to observe: that there's a difference between "X which also happens to have the characteristic Y", and "X is Y".  More people ought bear it in mind.


Ok . given and accepted that they were predominatly white which in my mind firmly locks them into tht racist category.


----------



## ueo (17 Nov 2022)

blacktriangle said:


> Early on in my career, I definitely remember derogatory comments being made about certain identifiable groups by instructors/supervisors. I also remember rants about women by those that had experienced messy divorces etc, and just a general lack of respect for women (even other serving members)
> 
> Being bombarded by that kind of crap at 17-18, by people in positions of authority, doesn't help a new recruit become a more well-adjusted member of the military/society.
> 
> ...





blacktriangle said:


> some of these folks were probably dealing with their own mental baggage from operational experiences.


Huh Whaat? Proof pls in concrete please.


----------



## ueo (17 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I was 13.
> 
> I’m from Saskatchewan and it was reported that the FLQ was all for an independent Quebec free from Anglo pig dogs (I made that up).
> 
> ...


I was there!


----------



## Remius (17 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> I was there!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> I was there!


Not Ottawa or Quebec, but I was shuttling ammo, etc around SW Ontario, with an armed guard. Out on the periphery, but still part.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Ok . given and accepted that they were predominatly white which in my mind firmly locks them into tht racist category.


Given some whites were considered better than others in that part of the world in that time by some, I would slot them as racist (maybe more  culturalist or nationalist?), but not White Supremicist.


----------



## TacticalTea (17 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> In other words, supremacy of the priorities, the values, the way of life - the culture.  They were planning to set up their socialist Francophone state and not place their language and culture above those of the all the non-Francophones?


Look if I follow your logic, there should be a single global government. After all, it's white supremacy to promote the idea of a nation state, no?

Or Ukraine should surrender to Russia. What does it matter that Russia rules them? It's white supremacy for them to attempt to affirm themselves as a nation. Hence, the Azov Nazis!

But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't agree with those ideas so it's hard to take your point seriously here.

I understand that, as an anglo-canadian, you may feel that Quebec gets a special treatment all the time. As if it's oh so different.

Truth of the matter is, it is indeed so different. PMJT and his dad err when they pretend Canada is a post-national state. It is - and has always been - a binational state. And both nations have different priorities, values, needs and wants. Sometimes it makes a lot of sense for a program to be federally managed, with the exception of Quebec. 

Quebec nationalism is just an extension of that. Wanting to have all the tools available at their disposal to ensure the best outcomes for Quebec, as a nation.


----------



## Weinie (17 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Look if I follow your logic, there should be a single global government. After all, it's white supremacy to promote the idea of a nation state, no?
> 
> Or Ukraine should surrender to Russia. What does it matter that Russia rules them? It's white supremacy for them to attempt to affirm themselves as a nation. Hence, the Azov Nazis!
> 
> ...


But you are not a nation. You are one of the provinces.


----------



## Remius (17 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> But you are not a nation. You are one of the provinces.








						Difference between Country and Nation | Country vs Nation
					

A country is defined as a region or an area of a land which is controlled by its own government. The term ‘nation’ refers to a community or group of people who share the same history, language, descent and a common government.




					www.differencebetween.info


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Look if I follow your logic, there should be a single global government. After all, it's white supremacy to promote the idea of a nation state, no?
> 
> Or Ukraine should surrender to Russia. What does it matter that Russia rules them? It's white supremacy for them to attempt to affirm themselves as a nation. Hence, the Azov Nazis!
> 
> ...



If Que is its own nation can we stop sending federal funding their way and move all federal offices and establishments out ?


----------



## ArmyRick (17 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Given some whites were considered better than others in that part of the world in that time by some, I would slot them as racist (maybe more  culturalist or nationalist?), but not White Supremicist.


My Maternal grandfather was Irish protestant. He had such huge hate for Irish Catholics that it was unbelievable. Funny his second youngest daughter (mom) married a catholic.


----------



## Weinie (17 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> But you are not a nation. You are one of the provinces.


I'm not trolling. You are one of the provinces. C'est un fact.


----------



## Remius (17 Nov 2022)

I refer to the differences between nation and country.  Link above in previous post. 

tactical tea is using that context.

Countries are always sovereign, nations not always so.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Nov 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Look if I follow your logic, there should be a single global government. After all, it's white supremacy to promote the idea of a nation state, no?
> 
> Or Ukraine should surrender to Russia. What does it matter that Russia rules them? It's white supremacy for them to attempt to affirm themselves as a nation. Hence, the Azov Nazis!
> 
> ...


Maybe you should go back and read my posts.  I've consistently talked about cultural supremacy, not white supremacy.  Recollect "x having the characteristic Y" does not mean "X is Y".  The FLQ may have been mostly white; that doesn't necessarily make them white supremacists.  It doesn't preclude them being nevertheless potential illiberal cultural chauvinists.  I mostly agree with you on the "not white supremacist" point (it's unproven); I disagree that they weren't seeking cultural supremacy on their own terms.  It's difficult to measure where "Rome for the Romans" becomes indefensible.  Moreover, if I were to only criticize them for their particular aims I'd miss the chance to simply criticize them for being leftist revolutionaries, which have for just over 100 years now committed the worst outrages on the planet.

Principles have to be uniformly applied, or they are just self-serving bullsh!t.  Try to imagine all the aspects of Quebec nationalism being applied by Anglos in the rest of Canada to protect and elevate Anglo culture above all others.  I cannot realistically suppose that would go over well.  Also, there are at least tens if not hundreds of indigenous groupings arguing that Canada should be more than a bi-national state.

But back to my general beef, which is one I have raised before.  The many cannot be tarred by the words or actions of a few.  But that is the way some people want to have it, applied against others but not themselves.  I searched for Parizeau's "ethnics and money" comment to re-acquaint myself with the circumstances.  I was amused to get mainly "he spoke only for himself; move on" results.  Apply that principle uniformly: "X speak only for themselves; move on" instead of finding ways to stretch discredit across groups of people who happen to share an occupation or a perceived placement on a social or political spectrum.  The passing and re-passing under the harrow of the CAF in one case or conservative-leaning people in another ought to end.


----------



## TacticalTea (17 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Principles have to be uniformly applied, or they are just self-serving bullsh!t. Try to imagine all the aspects of Quebec nationalism being applied by Anglos in the rest of Canada to protect and elevate Anglo culture above all others. I cannot realistically suppose that would go over well.


Of course, because that would be unnecessary. The American culture is hegemonic (just as the country is, militarily). It doesn't need protecting as there is no external threat to it. Some argue that there is an internal threat and speak of great replacement or moral decay. That's a conversation that's worth having and I don't think it automatically equates to White supremacy even if the Left likes to reduce it to that for self-serving political reasons.

Yet, Americans and Canadians still join their respective military to protect their values and way of life. That desire to do so is not unnatural or bigoted, it is intrinsically human.

I totally agree with your overarching point (as highlighted in your last paragraph), so I'm a bit confused when you apply to Quebeccers a logic you claim to disagree with.

-

PS, with regards to Parizeau: What he actually said was ''Money and the ethnic vote''. Indeed, that was not very well said of him, but it remains true that the federal campaign spent more than was legally allowed per campaign rules and that it targeted particular ethnic groups. Not that that is particularly heinous; Democrats court Black Americans and Republicans court Cuban Americans. Way of the world, as much as we might wish it were different.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> My Maternal grandfather was Irish protestant. He had such huge hate for Irish Catholics that it was unbelievable ...


Good point re:  other same-skin-on-same-skin hate -- and not the only "blue-on-blue" (so to speak) hate out there in the world, regardless of the skin colour in question.


----------



## lenaitch (17 Nov 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> My Maternal grandfather was Irish protestant. He had such huge hate for Irish Catholics that it was unbelievable. Funny his second youngest daughter (mom) married a catholic.


I worked with a guy like that.  I don't recall if he was Protestant or Catholic but do know he hated 'the other'.  He immigrated at a very young age, probably in the '50s, and I suppose he is the product of his upbringing.  The sad part is, he got married and had a son very late in life and from what I observed was raising the kid in the exact same hate he had.  Sad.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I worked with a guy like that.  I don't recall if he was Protestant or Catholic but do know he hated 'the other'.  He immigrated at a very young age, probably in the '50s, and I suppose he is the product of his upbringing.  The sad part is, he got married and had a son very late in life and from what I observed was raising the kid in the exact same hate he had.  Sad.



I was on the street in Belfast in one of the Loyalist housing estates, as you do, and was talking to a kid who was about 12 years old I'd guess. 

I asked him what he wanted to do when he grew up. 'Kill Catholics, like my Daddy does' came the reply.

They all looked the same (pale, white, spotty) to me of course so I asked him how he could tell a Catholic from a Protestant.

He pointed to a kid across the road, in a Nationalist housing estate, and said 'See that kid there? He's got a Devil's tail. They stuff it up the backs of their shirts so you can't see it.'

He was deadly serious and not taking the piss, as they sometimes did.

I knew then that we were on a fool's errand


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I worked with a guy like that.  I don't recall if he was Protestant or Catholic but do know he hated 'the other'.  He immigrated at a very young age, probably in the '50s, and I suppose he is the product of his upbringing.  The sad part is, he got married and had a son very late in life and from what I observed was raising the kid in the exact same hate he had.  Sad.


During the Yugo war, some said the expats (Croat/Serb/Bosnian - take yer pick) would often feel the hate-burn harder than those still in country.  Wonder if that's the same in these cases?


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> During the Yugo war, some said the expats (Croat/Serb/Bosnian - take yer pick) would often feel the hate-burn harder than those still in country.  Wonder if that's the same in these cases?


There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.


----------



## lenaitch (17 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> During the Yugo war, some said the expats (Croat/Serb/Bosnian - take yer pick) would often feel the hate-burn harder than those still in country.  Wonder if that's the same in these cases?


Not surprising.  Sometimes, it seems homeland folks move on over time but ex-pats cling to old ways, grudges, etc.


----------



## Halifax Tar (17 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.



I seen the IRA donation jar at the Black Rose in Boston.


----------



## TacticalTea (17 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> There are no more rabid IRA/Republican supporters in the world than the third generation "Irish American" Catholics in Boston and New York. I might throw Montreal in there too for shiggles.


If I recall correctly, in the context of Islamic terrorism, 2nd - rather than 1st - generation immigrants are also more prone to radicalization. 

An interesting phenomenon, that is.


----------



## Brad Sallows (17 Nov 2022)

If you've experienced a sh!tty place first-hand, your enthusiasm probably lags the subsequent generation growing up with an idealized version of the movie playing in their heads.


----------



## daftandbarmy (17 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I seen the IRA donation jar at the Black Rose in Boston.



That's peanuts compared to the cash the booze, drugs, hookers, protection rackets, and smuggling rings brought/ are bringing in.

It's almost like they're a real government


----------



## dapaterson (17 Nov 2022)

I used to drink at a bar that probably supported the IRA, then had a shawarma from a place that probably supported the PLO on the way home to balance it out.


----------



## Kirkhill (17 Nov 2022)

Woodrow Wilson introduces Self-Determination.  The world has been stable ever since.



> The right of a people to *self-determination*[1] is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a _jus cogens_ rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter's norms.[2][3] It states that peoples, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[4]
> 
> Lumads in Davao City marching for the right to self-determination as part of the human rights in Philippines in 2008.
> The concept was first expressed in the 1860s, and spread rapidly thereafter.[5][6] During and after World War I, the principle was encouraged by both Soviet Premier Vladimir Lenin and United States President Woodrow Wilson.[5][6] Having announced his Fourteen Points on 8 January 1918, on 11 February 1918 Wilson stated: "National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. 'Self determination' is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action."[7]
> ...











						Self-determination - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> That's peanuts compared to the cash the booze, drugs, hookers, protection rackets, and smuggling rings brought/ are bringing in.
> 
> It's almost like they're a real government



So basically they are funded by sailors on a run ashore.


----------



## singh1947 (18 Nov 2022)

I guess the debate's whether White Nationalism is exceptional or an extension.
Also, is it qualitatively different to exclude them from the army vs the country at large?
Is violent exclusion separate from or an extension of the peaceable kind?

I saw a lot of n-bombs, harassment of non-white colleagues, and other behaviors which made one thing obvious:
This is a white man's army centered on white values in a white country. All these are natural; we're violently opposed to intermarriage.
--

How this conflicts with a minority raised in a large city on multiculturalism is a separate issue.
As a religious person, a lot of the differences blend away for me:

Both left & right use tobacco, eat beef, etc. (cut their hair, walk about unarmed etc.)
Both the left & right generally expect you to follow Canadian laws arising out of a European culture.

In other words, they want or have first place among equals in a system based on their values.
--

So to me it's like w/e. You're in their country, and you can't expect every person to be a diplomat laying out the welcome mat.
Now, I think this means I've given up on integrating with the majority, and a lot of others have as well.

That's a bigger issue for the government than some small # in hate groups, and I'm not sure whether they understand that or conflate the two.
--

Also, not sure where to put introductions (tried the search) so:

I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.

Thanks,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


----------



## Good2Golf (18 Nov 2022)

Thanks for your perspective, @singh1947

Question for you, re: this part of your post:


> Now, I think this means I've given up on integrating with the majority, and a lot of others have as well.


My wife and I were discussing aspects of the US ‘melting pot’ vs Canadian ‘mosaic’ and how it would seem to follow that over time, Canadian society would seem to naturally diverge from its original European basis.  We saw it as neither good nor bad, but a likely trend on pan-society perspectives in Canada.  Is that a reasonable assessment on our part?

Regards
G2G


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> I guess the debate's whether White Nationalism is exceptional or an extension.
> Also, is it qualitatively different to exclude them from the army vs the country at large?
> Is violent exclusion separate from or an extension of the peaceable kind?
> 
> ...



Thanks for that @singh1947.   I look forwards to hearing  a lot more on your perspective.  I'm particularly intrigued by the issue of when does toleration become intolerable.  Some beliefs, religious or political, are so strongly held as to make accommodation very difficult.   This is true regardless of the origins of the individual.  

Also I would be interested to hear more about the origins of the Sikhs in lands between the Hindu and the Muslim.   Like Anglo-Scottish borderers and Cossacks of the steppes they seem, to me, to have developed their own particular coping skills over the last few centuries.


----------



## singh1947 (18 Nov 2022)

@Good2Golf @Kirkhill 

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Not sure about the mosaic vs melting pot because the Maryada (code) for a Sikh is the same no matter where you go.
I stopped thinking of myself as a member of 'Canadian' society because no one thought of me that way since I kept my hair (10 years ago).

I still perform the functions and duties of a good citizen, but that arises out of Sikhi rather than a respect for the law.

I do sort of miss the days or get angry about when I could feel part of the country or general current of society.
I had to go from being a person (Canadian) who just happens to be Sikh, to a Singh who just happens to be here.

That's sort of the extent of my thoughts on the matter. 
Not here to single out any group since I've seen a variety in all colours.


----------



## Remius (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> @Good2Golf @Kirkhill
> 
> Thank you for the warm welcome.
> 
> ...


How would you compare that thought process now vs 10 years ago?

Are things getting better or worse?  (Ie the situation for younger Sikhs say that are born in Canada versus ones that immigrate)


----------



## singh1947 (18 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> How would you compare that thought process now vs 10 years ago?
> 
> Are things getting better or worse?  (Ie the situation for younger Sikhs say that are born in Canada versus ones that immigrate)


Before student immigration things were easier socially, but I can't comment on the workplace since I was a teenager.
Things are never linear, but I think that smartphones/social media definitely changed social relations away from a local identity.
I believe in Canada so I'm always gonna say it's getting better. Positive thinking is sort of part of Sikhi (Chardi Kala).
I think that negativity arises from an incomplete understanding and/or is a matter of perspective.


----------



## Brad Sallows (18 Nov 2022)

To answer the question of whether keeping extremists out of the CAF vs the country matters: yes.  

First, the opportunity to do so is practical.  Excluding people born here from being here is problematic, but both the applicant and the CAF have a choice about whether a person joins the CAF.

Second, there's an observable and annoying/worrisome/potentially destabilizing tendency for people today to assume they may use their position in an organization to advance their personal social and political goals.  Recent examples: some employees of the FBI, many employees of Twitter, members of university faculty and staff.  The long-standing customary ethical line between professional and personal has been dangerously eroded in a short time.  Obviously, extremists cannot be permitted to use position in the CAF to advance extremist goals.


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> @Good2Golf @Kirkhill
> 
> Thank you for the warm welcome.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure if that puts you significantly different to an observant Jew or Catholic or to any secular citizen of any country who finds their calling beyond national borders.

Or, to be difficult, to a monarchist in Canada.  Some of us see the monarchy as Canadian.  Others see the monarch as Canadian as the Pope.


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## Jarnhamar (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ



Hi Singh,

I'm curious what group your avatar picture represents?

I also noticed on your profile there appears to be Vishnu (or Rama?) holding a severed bleeding head. Out of curiosity who is the victim there?


----------



## brihard (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> Also, not sure where to put introductions (tried the search) so:
> 
> I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.
> 
> ...



Yes, I think we recall from when you were previously a member here... was it three years ago already?









						Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
					

Latest from New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland  Security - examples local, but also includes a bit of broader analysis ... Background      ISIS—also referred to as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, the Islamic State, or Daesh—is a Salafi-jihadist militant...




					www.army.ca


----------



## singh1947 (18 Nov 2022)

@Jarnhamar Variation of the Aad Chand.
Ma Kali on header.


@brihard No relation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Nov 2022)

Neat, thanks.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> I'm a Sikh, former Officer in the CAF, and would like to engage respectfully to share a few ideas, and take on a few more.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


If I may, can you tell us what rank and unit? Were you released or did you quit. I just wonder what unit was so much in contravention of our rules on racism. Was your rank not sufficient to address it with authority? Lastly, did you release on your own or did they put you out for trying to address it. I just want a little more background to get a clearer picture of your perspective and what brought you to it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> If I may, can you tell us what rank and unit? Were you released or did you quit. I just wonder what unit was so much in contravention of our rules on racism. Was your rank not sufficient to address it with authority? Lastly, did you release on your own or did they put you out for trying to address it. I just want a little more background to get a clearer picture of your perspective and what brought you to it.


Good questions. I'm always surprised when I hear this stuff exists out in the open. With all the training and talks people receive yearly it makes me wonder why or how anyone risks not taking action when they hear inappropriate comments (beyond the ethical reasons to do so).

I think the tenets of some religions call for it's members to promote their religion and talk about it. Nothing nefarious. Atheists might take offense at that and that could translate into them making inappropriate comments. Athiest chains of command might try and run a devout religious person out of their unit too.


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## Furniture (19 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Good questions. I'm always surprised when I hear this stuff exists out in the open. With all the training and talks people receive yearly it makes me wonder why or how anyone risks not taking action when they hear inappropriate comments (beyond the ethical reasons to do so).
> 
> I think the tenets of some religions call for it's members to promote their religion and talk about it. Nothing nefarious. Atheists might take offense at that and that could translate into them making inappropriate comments. Athiest chains of command might try and run a devout religious person out of their unit too.


I had a subordinate who believed, based on his personal religious beliefs, that homosexuality is a mental illness. The member decided to engage in a debate with a Pte(R) my section was accommodating.... it was a fun time. 

There are some hard and fast rules about what people are allowed to say/do based on their personal beliefs. 

It is my opinion that there are some religions, and belief systems that are incompatible with being in the CAF.


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I had a subordinate who believed, based on his personal religious beliefs, that homosexuality is a mental illness. The member decided to engage in a debate with a Pte(R) my section was accommodating.... it was a fun time.
> 
> There are some hard and fast rules about what people are allowed to say/do based on their personal beliefs.
> 
> It is my opinion that there are some religions, and belief systems that are incompatible with being in the CAF.


One can believe whatever they want, in the privacy of their brain.

What tumbles out of their mouth, on the other hand, has limits.


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## Kirkhill (19 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> If I may, can you tell us what rank and unit? Were you released or did you quit. I just wonder what unit was so much in contravention of our rules on racism. Was your rank not sufficient to address it with authority? Lastly, did you release on your own or did they put you out for trying to address it. I just want a little more background to get a clearer picture of your perspective and what brought you to it.





singh1947 said:


> This is a white man's army centered on white values in a white country. All these are natural; we're violently opposed to intermarriage.
> --
> 
> How this conflicts with a minority raised in a large city on multiculturalism is a separate issue.
> ...



My sense of Singh 1947's post is not that there were necessarily a lot of racist incidents.  On the other hand there was a lot of background noise that made his way of life, resulting from his beliefs, more difficult.



> Both left & right use tobacco, eat beef, etc. (cut their hair, walk about unarmed etc.)
> Both the left & right generally expect you to follow Canadian laws arising out of a European culture.



To most Canadians those are unremarkable statements.  They don't recognize themselves in those statements because they are unremarkable.  But to an observant Sikh they are emotive issues that require a decision on whether to tolerate them, fight to change them or return to a more familiar environment.  Similar sentiments could be expressed by Muslimn and Jews about pork, or the availability of smoke meat, bagels and flatbread.  Or by Scots on the supply of good meat pies and black pudding.

Most folks learn to accommodate - to tolerate.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Nov 2022)

Thx for the input. That could very well be true, but I would like to hear it in his words, so there is no confusion.


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## Eaglelord17 (19 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> I had a subordinate who believed, based on his personal religious beliefs, that homosexuality is a mental illness. The member decided to engage in a debate with a Pte(R) my section was accommodating.... it was a fun time.
> 
> There are some hard and fast rules about what people are allowed to say/do based on their personal beliefs.
> 
> It is my opinion that there are some religions, and belief systems that are incompatible with being in the CAF.


See this is the issue with the CAF. We shouldn’t be playing the exclusionary game. If a Canadian citizen wishes to join and wishes to serve they should be allowed. I don’t care what their personal view points are. 

All that needs to be said is well you are in uniform or directly repersenting the CAF this is how you will act. Anything beyond that and you start creating a tiered society where some are more important to others. It is also a direct violation of their rights as one of the most important rights in our society is the right to freedom of thought, opinion and expression. 

A recruit who would have served honourably in WWII wouldn’t be accepted today. Let that sink in.


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## lenaitch (19 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> See this is the issue with the CAF. We shouldn’t be playing the exclusionary game. If a Canadian citizen wishes to join and wishes to serve they should be allowed. I don’t care what their personal view points are.
> 
> All that needs to be said is well you are in uniform or directly repersenting the CAF this is how you will act. Anything beyond that and you start creating a tiered society where some are more important to others. It is also a direct violation of their rights as one of the most important rights in our society is the right to freedom of thought, opinion and expression.
> 
> A recruit who would have served honourably in WWII wouldn’t be accepted today. Let that sink in.


It's more than "act"; it's express, which includes a manifestation of belief.  I suppose that if person with abhorrent or anti-social beliefs held then all in, even before joining, and otherwise acted in a manner that is completely in alignment with CAF and Canadian society then, sure, why not.  Then again, how would we know?

The CAF needs to do its due diligence.  No chrystal ball will tell them if or when 'belief' will turn into something else.

I suspect members serving during WWII largely reflected Canadian society of the period  Many aspects of said society would be be considered unacceptable today.


----------



## dimsum (19 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> See this is the issue with the CAF. We shouldn’t be playing the exclusionary game. If a Canadian citizen wishes to join and wishes to serve they should be allowed. I don’t care what their personal view points are.
> 
> All that needs to be said is well you are in uniform or directly repersenting the CAF this is how you will act. Anything beyond that and you start creating a tiered society where some are more important to others. It is also a direct violation of their rights as one of the most important rights in our society is the right to freedom of thought, opinion and expression.
> 
> A recruit who would have served honourably in WWII wouldn’t be accepted today. Let that sink in.


However, what is considered "allowed" also changes with the times.  In the early years of WWII, Asians weren't allowed to join the Canadian military.

And sure, you're allowed freedom of thought, opinion, and expression.  But, if someone has espoused, say, white supremacist views prior to joining the CAF, what are the chances that they have completely changed?  Should the CAF risk allowing them in to further radicalize others, or get training, etc for those groups when they leave?


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> However, what is considered "allowed" also changes with the times.  In the early years of WWII, Asians weren't allowed to join the Canadian military.
> 
> And sure, you're allowed freedom of thought, opinion, and expression.  But, if someone has espoused, say, white supremacist views prior to joining the CAF, what are the chances that they have completely changed?  Should the CAF risk allowing them in to further radicalize others, or get training, etc for those groups when they leave?


And now you are into risk management.

You can't foretell actions.  You can't foretell a person's future words or thoughts or expressions.  You can't foretell if a person will change their mind. 

You can only react to what a person does.  That is the only sound basis for policing, in the broadest sense.  

Everybody has to be given benefit of the doubt, the presumption of innocence and the opportunity to screw up.

Let the deed show.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It's more than "act"; it's express, which includes a manifestation of belief.  I suppose that if person with abhorrent or anti-social beliefs held then all in, even before joining, and otherwise acted in a manner that is completely in alignment with CAF and Canadian society then, sure, why not.  Then again, how would we know?
> 
> The CAF needs to do its due diligence.  No chrystal ball will tell them if or when 'belief' will turn into something else.
> 
> I suspect members serving during WWII largely reflected Canadian society of the period  Many aspects of said society would be be considered unacceptable today.


Like this guy. A major and a psychologist.








						2009 Fort Hood shooting - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Eaglelord17 (19 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It's more than "act"; it's express, which includes a manifestation of belief.  I suppose that if person with abhorrent or anti-social beliefs held then all in, even before joining, and otherwise acted in a manner that is completely in alignment with CAF and Canadian society then, sure, why not.  Then again, how would we know?
> 
> The CAF needs to do its due diligence.  No chrystal ball will tell them if or when 'belief' will turn into something else.
> 
> I suspect members serving during WWII largely reflected Canadian society of the period  Many aspects of said society would be be considered unacceptable today.


Why does someones personal beliefs have to be in alignment with ‘Canadian societies’ beliefs? What is the beliefs of Canadian society?

I have met racists, communists, neo-nazis, feminists, misogynists, misandrists, monarchists, libertarians, gays, homophobes, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. what did they all have in common? They are all Canadians. 

They have the right to act provided they aren’t breaking any laws. Your definition of abhorrent will vary too. To me it abhorrent to deny citizens the chance to serve their country because of their personal beliefs. 




dimsum said:


> However, what is considered "allowed" also changes with the times.  In the early years of WWII, Asians weren't allowed to join the Canadian military.
> 
> And sure, you're allowed freedom of thought, opinion, and expression.  But, if someone has espoused, say, white supremacist views prior to joining the CAF, what are the chances that they have completely changed?  Should the CAF risk allowing them in to further radicalize others, or get training, etc for those groups when they leave?


Is the groups they are part of illegal or not? Have they committed crimes or not? Those should be determining factors. Considering once they put on a uniform the moment they suggest using violence against the government they have committed a crime, maybe that might be the best for all involved. 

This holier than thou attitude the CAF is adopting is morally disgusting to me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I have met racists, communists, neo-nazis, feminists, misogynists, misandrists, monarchists, libertarians, gays, homophobes, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.


Been hanging on Parliament Hill?
😁


----------



## brihard (19 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> And now you are into risk management.
> 
> You can't foretell actions.  You can't foretell a person's future words or thoughts or expressions.  You can't foretell if a person will change their mind.
> 
> ...


Be careful not to conflate being accused of and punished for _offences_ with being deemed _reliable_ and having a security clearance. You can and must get ahead of threats and err on the side of caution with security clearance screening. The risk of screwing it up is way too high.

Though I recognize the thread has very much moved on, the NSIRA report originally reported on is a study into the CF National Counterintelligence Unit. The report isn’t looking squarely at the ability to discipline or prosecute troops who may simply be shitty people. Rather it’s looking at _security threats_ from extremist organizations, and the ability of CFNCIU to address these is hampered in some ways by tools it doesn’t have access to. Reading through some of the report, and being able to make inferences about what’s ‘under the black’ in some case, clearly they don’t have such ready access to some investigative tools like wiretaps or other private communication intercepts (there are very tight legal constraints on these). The report highlights some issues with prioritization, their case management model, and some other aspects of how they dig in and get info on possible security threats that may not necessarily yet be provably _criminal_.

So no, in counterintelligence and the world of trusting people with access to sensitive information, you don’t and can’t err on the side of trust and waiting to let them screw up.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Nov 2022)

_sidebar-  The word counterintelligence always brings a smile to my face - sidebar_


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2022)

We will kick Tommy out of the CAF for belonging to a group who has anti-gay, anti-Semitic, anti-woman etc.. beliefs.

We won't kick Thomas out for belonging to a religion with the same beliefs.


----------



## brihard (19 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> We will kick Tommy out of the CAF for belonging to a group who has anti-gay, anti-Semitic, anti-woman etc.. beliefs.
> 
> We won't kick Thomas out for belonging to a religion with the same beliefs.


Which religion do you have in mind?


----------



## dimsum (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Which religion do you have in mind?


I was gonna say - there is a short list of religions that _don't_ have at least one of those things.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> I guess the debate's whether White Nationalism is exceptional or an extension.
> Also, is it qualitatively different to exclude them from the army vs the country at large?
> Is violent exclusion separate from or an extension of the peaceable kind?
> 
> ...


When I married my wife who is mixed Malay and Indian and she looks very South Indian, the most overt racism we got was from the older Indians who would literally spit at us, because they disapproved of mixed couples. To be fair the below 30 Indians didn't seem to care much. Most of the racism we got from the Whites was mostly clumsy and kind of stupid patronising, but not as visceral as what we got from those Indians. Growing up here, it would have likley cost me my life or a limb to date a Indian girl. The Indian community here has also come a long way as well and mixed couples are very common, but not so much 20 years ago and very rare in the 1980's. My wife growing up mixed blood suffered a lot of racism in her own country, not good enough for either group and then there is the friction between South and Northern Indians.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Be careful not to conflate being accused of and punished for _offences_ with being deemed _reliable_ and having a security clearance. You can and must get ahead of threats and err on the side of caution with security clearance screening. The risk of screwing it up is way too high.
> 
> Though I recognize the thread has very much moved on, the NSIRA report originally reported on is a study into the CF National Counterintelligence Unit. The report isn’t looking squarely at the ability to discipline or prosecute troops who may simply be shitty people. Rather it’s looking at _security threats_ from extremist organizations, and the ability of CFNCIU to address these is hampered in some ways by tools it doesn’t have access to. Reading through some of the report, and being able to make inferences about what’s ‘under the black’ in some case, clearly they don’t have such ready access to some investigative tools like wiretaps or other private communication intercepts (there are very tight legal constraints on these). The report highlights some issues with prioritization, their case management model, and some other aspects of how they dig in and get info on possible security threats that may not necessarily yet be provably _criminal_.
> 
> So no, in counterintelligence and the world of trusting people with access to sensitive information, you don’t and can’t err on the side of trust and waiting to let them screw up.




But if you want to maintain an inclusive institution you cannot assume that the only trustworthy people suitable to wear the Crown's uniform are those that have passed security clearance to Cosmic or Ultra or whatever the magic word is today.

The uniform should be available to the average young Canadian on the street.  Once they are in then they can demonstrate their trustworthyness and be suitably promoted and assigned.

I makes no sense to me to treat all recruits as if they are headed for the inner sanctums of CSE or the Privy Council.  For the record most of the stuff the Yanks consider necessary to field a private is widely published as Field Manuals.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Which religion do you have in mind?


I didn't have one specificly. Most mainstream ones I'd say?

We sort of have our own DADT policy about it.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Nov 2022)

Want to maintain a vehicle with most firms of technology? Drive that vehicle? Handle those weapons?  Track those supplies?

Guess what? Need a level 2 secret clearance.


----------



## brihard (19 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> But if you want to maintain an inclusive institution you cannot assume that the only trustworthy people suitable to wear the Crown's uniform are those that have passed security clearance to Cosmic or Ultra or whatever the magic word is today.
> 
> The uniform should be available to the average young Canadian on the street.  Once they are in then they can demonstrate their trustworthyness and be suitably promoted and assigned.
> 
> I makes no sense to me to treat all recruits as if they are headed for the inner sanctums of CSE or the Privy Council.  For the record most of the stuff the Yanks consider necessary to field a private is widely published as Field Manuals.


I hope you’re being facetious. The uniform IS available to the average Canadian on the street. The average Canadian is nothing close to a security risk. Recruits will get an enhanced reliability screening. I never saw an actual security clearance til I went overseas (caveat- I was PRes, I don’t know if your average Pte in battalion is cleared for Secret). Obviously there are trades where a true clearance is required for basic functions, but even that doesn’t mean a super close scrutiny is given to every prospective recruit.

The original report in question is talking about investigating flagged and identified risks; not some sort of redo of the Spanish Inquisition. Even identified potential risks seem to be straining the system in terms of both capacity, and investigative techniques unavailable to CAF outside of an MP criminal investigation. It’s not saying every kid walking through the door needs to be subject to some greater and more onerous screening. Did you look at the report at all?


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Nov 2022)

Not sure what "Canadian" or "Canadian society's" beliefs are, or what they should be.  Probably can't go wrong by skewing heavily (classical) liberal.

If you're allowing your dislike for what people stand for to increase your willingness to reach for more extreme measures, you're wrong.  And I see a strain of that in "Canadian society".  "Canadian society's" beliefs are not above reproach.


----------



## brihard (19 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> If you're allowing your dislike for what people stand for to increase your willingness to reach for more extreme measures, you're wrong.



Who here do you believe is doing that? It’s not clear who you’re referring to?


----------



## dimsum (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Did you look at the report at all?


Sir, this is a Wendys social media. How dare you bring "facts" and "context" and prevent people from firing up the outrage bus.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> . . . not some sort of redo of the Spanish Inquisition. . . .





What?  You mentioned it; it's expected!


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Who here do you believe is doing that? It’s not clear who you’re referring to?


"Canadian society".  Including the people at the top of government and politics, regrettably.  Rule of law (ie. applying the rules scrupulously equally) is a demanding master.


----------



## RangerRay (19 Nov 2022)

Seems pretty clear to me. If a security clearance for an applicant shows a history of supporting or membership in Diagalon or some other unsavoury group or ideology, they should be told to find employment elsewhere. No different than what we currently do with an applicant that was supportive of Al Qaeda or violent Marxist revolution.


----------



## Quirky (19 Nov 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> We won't kick Thomas out for belonging to a religion with the same beliefs.



I’ve seen way more Thomas’ that need to be kicked out for being utterly incompetent at their job, rather than having personal views that are “inappropriate”. 

With reconstitution it’s going to be even harder to drain the swamp. Anyone who can show up and put in the bare minimum effort is guaranteed the same pay and benefits as your top performers. It’s maddening we are a welfare service.


----------



## MJP (19 Nov 2022)

Quirky said:


> I’ve seen way more Thomas’ that need to be kicked out for being utterly incompetent at their job, rather than having personal views that are “inappropriate”.
> 
> With reconstitution it’s going to be even harder to drain the swamp. Anyone who can show up and put in the bare minimum effort is guaranteed the same pay and benefits as your top performers. It’s maddening we are a welfare service.


That was status quo before reconstitution sadly.  The sad part is we have the tools but many CoC are misinformed or don't want to go down that road


----------



## singh1947 (19 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Thx for the input. That could very well be true, but I would like to hear it in his words, so there is no confusion.


I don't think quality of life or comfort issues are at the root of the CAF's problem with cultural literacy.
It's more an intolerance to anything outside the agnostic milquetoast liberal, current thing, mainstream.
Smoke leads to fire, and an inability to accommodate small things either indicates larger prejudices or an administrative lapse.

I was told to remove my Kirpan for the CFAT, a great start that left a lasting impression.
I had a Pte rant about how I want to fly planes into buildings, and stone women.
He began to cry after an NCM jacked him up, insisting he's not 'racist' or something.
I mentioned Brenton Tarrant as an example of terrorism having no colour.
The CoC took this as evidence of harassment of said Pte & anti-white hatred on my part.

Someone might ask about the Kirpan? I'd mention weapons worship.
People would snicker about it behind my back, in this case led by a devout Christian.
More than one person told me that people were looking for reasons to take issue with me.
The Turban, and not really my conduct was the core problem.

People regularly quipped that I resemble ISIS or that the Turban doesn't belong in uniform.
Superiors sometimes joined in, for example once when I mentioned I don't eat beef.
A dozen people surrounded me, and a few rattled on on about steak.

@Jarnhamar My religion came up due to other people's curiosity. Deeds bring glory not rhetoric.

A lot of folks can't handle disagreement, and are told/feel that anything offensive is off-limits.
However, they're offended by the unfamiliar or uncomfortable.

@Furniture All what you're saying leads to is a witch hunt, I've been there.
The average person isn't an expert on religion or belief nor its context within modern society.
Partisanship is a personality trait, and judging beliefs over actions is textbook bigotry.

@Kirkhill If I ask that you smoke away from me due to my religion, and you turn and blow it in my face.
Who's responsible for the hospital bill? I can lose face in my community & ignore the Guru's orders.
Or just take my chances, set a new norm, and teach a lesson.

@Colin Parkinson Maryada (code) bans inter-caste marriage.
I've had public school teachers/staff huff, pace, and interrupt when I'm with a white woman.
Same types will smile shyly when it's an Indian girl. They don't do the same to a black-white couple.

@Brad Sallows I just meant that ethnocentrism is a natural phenomenon. Someone might be mildly annoyed at immigration, but really angry at Turbans in the CAF. Treating European ethnocentrism as a unique problem is weird, as is considering liberal values akin to a state religion. Multiculturalism is about fostering pride and respect toward all people's heritage as far as I know.

Basically what @Eaglelord17 said.

I left the institution on my own terms, got more than even, and made a mark on more than one report/study concerning the issue. In my opinion, I started off as a Sikh with a Turban and a trimmed beard. I left with one down to my belt line, and a three-foot sword right next to it daily. I made out like a bandit, and whether out of fear, respect or awe I don't think those people would've treated me the same had I entered the institution that way.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Nov 2022)

Okay thx Singh 1947.


----------



## singh1947 (19 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> If I may, can you tell us what rank and unit? Were you released or did you quit. I just wonder what unit was so much in contravention of our rules on racism. Was your rank not sufficient to address it with authority? Lastly, did you release on your own or did they put you out for trying to address it. I just want a little more background to get a clearer picture of your perspective and what brought you to it.


Multiple units, multiple ranks. Authority didn't back me up, but it's all in the past.
The responses in the thread were all enlightening since I hadn't considered the atheist angle before.

Thanks.


----------



## Furniture (19 Nov 2022)

@singh1947  I'm not suggesting that people be barred from th CAF based on religion or beliefs, I'm simply pointing out that some belief systems are not compatible with the CAF. People need to make a decision for themselves about whether CAF service or their personal beliefs will be paramount in their lives. 

If a religion forbids interacting with members of the opposite sex who are not family, that religion is incompatible with CAF service. The member can either choose to be a CAF member, and bend/break the religious rules, or they can release/not join.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> ethnocentrism is a natural phenomenon.


Yes.  It's not as if no Chinese or Japanese person, for example, ever felt his people were better than Europeans.


singh1947 said:


> considering liberal values akin to a state religion. Multiculturalism is about fostering pride and respect toward all people's heritage as far as I know.


Properly understood, liberal values are about maximizing the freedom of a person to live the life he chooses.  No other doctrine I know of can do that.  Multiculturalism by definition has to tolerate illiberal practices.


----------



## lenaitch (19 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Why does someones personal beliefs have to be in alignment with ‘Canadian societies’ beliefs? What is the beliefs of Canadian society?
> 
> I have met racists, communists, neo-nazis, feminists, misogynists, misandrists, monarchists, libertarians, gays, homophobes, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. what did they all have in common? They are all Canadians.
> 
> ...


You have a young daughter.  You want to go out for dinner and someone gives you the name of a sitter.  Said sitter has numerous public social media posts discussing pedophilia.  Going to hire them and have a peaceful night out?  After all, they have no history of acting on their feelings or beliefs.

It's about due diligence and risk management.


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> A recruit who would have served honourably in WWII wouldn’t be accepted today. Let that sink in.





lenaitch said:


> I suspect members serving during WWII largely reflected Canadian society of the period  Many aspects of said society would be be considered unacceptable today.



Saw an interesting official WW2 U.S. Army training film: "How to behave in Britain".



> The film provides examples of how to interact with several varied groups of people: children, strangers, prostitutes and military officers.
> The film also portrays attitudes towards race in the United Kingdom, which were generally more progressive than those in the United States at the time. Referring to Black soldiers as "coloureds", the film depicts a British woman inviting "coloured" soldiers for tea. To alleviate potential concerns of impropriety, an elderly woman was chosen to portray the hostess in the tea scene rather than a young woman. This segment was intended primarily for white American service personnel, to encourage them to adopt a "veneer of ethnic tolerance" while in Great Britain.











						File:Race relations Scene from Welcome to Britain.webm - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## dimsum (20 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw an interesting official WW2 U.S. Army training film: "How to behave in Britain".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That didn't always work:






						Battle of Brisbane - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> That didn't always work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Closer to home

Halifax Riots - sailors and slackers on VE Day


----------



## Halifax Tar (20 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Closer to home
> 
> Halifax Riots - sailors and slackers on VE Day



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that was racially motivated was it ?


----------



## dimsum (20 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that was racially motivated was it ?


I didn't think so either.


----------



## Gunnar (20 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Closer to home
> 
> Halifax Riots - sailors and slackers on VE Day


I had always thought that the Halifax Riots had more to do with some genius cutting off access to liquor just as a large group of drinking soldiers was poised to celebrate the end of the war...


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> That didn't always work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Guess some didn't read the brochure.









						Tips For American Servicemen In Australia During The Second World War
					

In 1942, the United States issued Instructions for American Servicemen in Australia as a quick guide to Australia's people, politics, history and culture for Americans stationed there during the Second World War. It was one of several similar sets of instructions put together by the US...




					www.iwm.org.uk
				





> They were better paid and had access to more exotic consumer items in their military PXs (tax free stores) and many Australian women saw the well-paid Americans as desirable and romantic. More than 12,000 Australian women became American war brides, most of whom returned to the US with their new husbands at the end of the war.



The film "Yanks" is about the US Army build-up in Britain during the war. They made quite an impression on the local women, and many married American servicemen and moved to the States. The film also shows the racial tension of the era.

Likewise during the occupation of Japan. I found this official US Army training film rather touching. It's a true story ( with the real people, not actors ) , their marriage lasted their lifetimes together, and both of their daughters became well known when they became adults.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that was racially motivated was it ?



Not racially motivated but definitely motivated by "the other".  Us and them.  The locals and the come from aways.

A clash of cultures.

Kind of like the Canadians in Britain.

Epsom 1919
Kinmel Park 1919
Alderson 1945

"Over paid, over sexed and over here!"  was the British rallying cry.  Applied to Canadians before it was applied to the Yanks.


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> "Over paid, over sexed and over here!"  was the British rallying cry.  Applied to Canadians before it was applied to the Yanks.



"Under paid. Under sexed. Under Eisenhower."


----------



## lenaitch (20 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Saw an interesting official WW2 U.S. Army training film: "How to behave in Britain".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The clip kinda glosses over the fact that the US military was still segregated at the time.  I wonder how common it would have been for a white and black US service member to share a railway compartment.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Nov 2022)

Gunnar said:


> I had always thought that the Halifax Riots had more to do with some genius cutting off access to liquor just as a large group of drinking soldiers was poised to celebrate the end of the war...


That genius’s offspring must work for Air Canada: “We’re not happy until you’re not happy.”


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The clip kinda glosses over the fact that the US military was still segregated at the time.



Until 1948.

I think the training film was more about how to behave when off base, in a different country with different customs. I doubt the army could enforce segregation in an English town.



> I wonder how common it would have been for a white and black US service member to share a railway compartment.



Must have been interesting in the British dance halls with so many G.I.'s ( and Canadians  ).  Especially with so many English men already shipped out of the country.

Ain't no use in going back

Jody's got your Cadillac

Ain't no use in going home

Jody's got your girl and gone

Ain't no use in feeling blue

Jody's got your sister too!


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Until 1948.
> 
> I think the training film was more about how to behave when off base, in a different country with different customs. I doubt the army could enforce segregation in an English town.
> 
> ...











						When England taught the Yanks how to treat their African Americans
					

In preparation for the largest amphibious invasion in the history of warfare on 6 June 1944, the American’s brought with them to the UK 1.4 million troops




					www.blackhistorymonth.org.uk
				






			https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/the-battle-of-bamber-bridge.html?chrome=1
		


Brits were being shipped off to North Africa and Burma.  Leaving their women to the well paid Americans and Canadians with their "ranches".


----------



## Blackadder1916 (20 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> That didn't always work:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not the only altercation, riot or crime to involve the military in Oz during the war.



			Altercations , Riots and Crimes involving the Military within Australia during WW2


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Brits were being shipped off to North Africa and Burma.  Leaving their women to the well paid Americans and Canadians with their "ranches".





> Bloody Yanks.
> Bloody Yanks coming over here.
> Why don't you bugger off home,
> back where you bloody belong?





> Sir, I didn't ask to come to this country.
> I was drafted.
> If you've got any kind of influence,
> I'd be grateful to get back where I belong.
> The sooner the better.





> When they send the last Yank home,
> All they'll have is some clothes, and a kid that talks through its nose.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Nov 2022)

Yep. The Special Relationship was indeed Speshul.

The French were at least as grateful to the Brits as the Brits were to the Yanks.  And shall we leave the rest of Europe aside for the time being?


----------



## singh1947 (26 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes.  It's not as if no Chinese or Japanese person, for example, ever felt his people were better than Europeans.
> 
> Properly understood, liberal values are about maximizing the freedom of a person to live the life he chooses.  No other doctrine I know of can do that.  Multiculturalism by definition has to tolerate illiberal practices.


I just meant looking out for your own.

Liberalism is a funny rabbit hole - if you read Mill & Bentham, JS Mill, Rosseau, Wollstonecraft etc 
You get the following summary:

1. Liberal values/ideas are about internalizing or acting in line with mass public opinion (J.S. Mill/Rosseau)
2. The Government can/should act to prevent (collective) harm, but this is left undefined (Bentham & Mill, J.S Mill)
3. While the people should elect government - it should be professional/separate & not interfered with day-day (JS Mill)
4. Bonus - Government should encourage/increase factionalism - woke idpol? (John Madison, JS Mill maybe?)

The blue-haired trigglypuff advocating masking & gun control is a true liberal, not the classic conservative.
Looking at the literature at least.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Nov 2022)

The "liber" in "liberalism" is all about individual liberty to a self-described classical liberal/libertarian.  (None of the broad political descriptors is particularly useful without clarification.)  Anyone advocating masking and gun control is acting opposite to individual liberty.  Certainly there are others who choose "liberalism" to mean collective liberty and then set about defining what it means (mostly, imposing obligations on some to provide benefits for others).


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> The blue-haired trigglypuff advocating masking & gun control is a true liberal, not the classic conservative.
> Looking at the literature at least.


No she isn't .
Socio-Liberalsim v. Classic Liberalism


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Nov 2022)

Most understandings of "liberal" will come down to individual liberty.  Attempts to hijack the word for collective doctrines exist because the word has favourable associations.  It is a rough opposite of the misuse of "fascism" or "authoritarianism" (because the words have unfavourable associations).


----------



## singh1947 (26 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The "liber" in "liberalism" is all about individual liberty to a self-described classical liberal/libertarian.  (None of the broad political descriptors is particularly useful without clarification.)  Anyone advocating masking and gun control is acting opposite to individual liberty.  Certainly there are others who choose "liberalism" to mean collective liberty and then set about defining what it means (mostly, imposing obligations on some to provide benefits for others).





Fishbone Jones said:


> No she isn't .
> Socio-Liberalsim v. Classic Liberalism


Classic Liberalism allows rights to be proscribed to prevent harm.
At that point it's a debate about tactics - both agree on the above strategy.
The Individual is a creation of the Western European Church & State.
You create the individual by mixing the clans & removing their coercive authority.
Liberalism is just not my ethnic tradition, I have a clan/tribe/Panth.
--


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2022)

Singh 1947,

Tell me your analysis of Jagmeet Singh and his penchant for demonizing white anglos.


----------



## singh1947 (26 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Singh 1947,
> 
> Tell me your analysis of Jagmeet Singh and his penchant for demonizing white anglos.








						Manglacharan on Instagram: "ਸਿੱਖ ਹੋਇ ਆਮਿਖ ਭਖੈ, ਬਿੱਪ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੋ ਖਾਇ ।  A Sikh is one who eats meat, a Brahmin is one who does not. . . Guru Gobind Singh addressing his congregation, written in Gurpratap Suraj Prakash Granth [1843CE] by the Great Poet S
					






					www.instagram.com
				




He's vegetarian - Sikh don't do cow slaughter or halal though.

It's his party line/good politics I suppose, same with the gun stuff.

You get tired of being pro-white when none of the white folk listen though..
That's not his story, but mine.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Nov 2022)

singh1947 said:


> You get tired of being pro-white *when none of the white folk listen though..*
> That's not his story, but mine.


Sure, OK.
Big brush racism. That'll make people listen.
We're done. I've heard enough.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Nov 2022)

I doubt it's necessary to proscribe rights to prevent harm.  There might be some edge cases that don't easily come to mind, but generally all that is necessary to prevent harm is to respect rights.  (This doesn't apply to entitlements or powers.)

I suppose the individual to be the default.  It's the simplest social structure, and co-operation without compulsion follows easily enough.  Obviously it's unattractive to those who would rule, who are found everywhere.


----------



## TacticalTea (1 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> This is likely where the rumour(?) of a Veterans Watchlist comes from. I've been hearing dribs and drabs about this for a couple of years. What's been said is, it is the same type of list as a terrorist or biker watch list. Now it kind of makes sense. This government doesn't  like or trust Veterans. Even if true, I don't expect any LEOs or Int types to admit about it, especially on open boards. However, if someone does know, just keep quiet about it. No need to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. I questioned some Opposition members, just last week about this. I wonder if I'll get an answer.
> 
> The white supremist thing, in the military, as almost the greatest  threat to Canada, is a canard. The Biden government has tried to push the same narrative about their military and Republicans. Does it exist. No doubt. The same way as the cartels have infiltrated the US military. Isolated instances and small groups. Or Tamil Tigers, or just plain terrorists looking for training or any number of groups.
> If I was a betting man, I could easily believe this from our current mob of governance. Or perhaps they dragged this back out in response to Maisonneuve's speech the other night at his award banquet. He spoke truth to power and really pissed of a lot of people. Especially, when he got standing ovation from the military people there.
> ...





			Lt.-Gen. (retd) Maisonneuve: Clearing the air about my anti-woke speech
		


Maisonneuve just put this out today.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Sure, OK.
> Big brush racism. That'll make people listen.
> We're done. I've heard enough.


Well we can just adopt Indian government polices on Interracial/faith issue and we be fine, right?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Well we can just adopt Indian government polices on Interracial/faith issue and we be fine, right?


I don't know Colin, that's the kind of talk that gets planes blown out of the sky off the coast of Ireland.


----------



## singh1947 (4 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I don't know Colin, that's the kind of talk that gets planes blown out of the sky off the coast of Ireland.


"Jagmeet Singh and his penchant for demonizing white anglos."



You just answered your own question didn't you?
I got enough on my plate to not solve the world's problems for it.



Colin Parkinson said:


> Well we can just adopt Indian government polices on Interracial/faith issue and we be fine, right?


India has plenty of laws where you can get locked up without a preliminary investigation.
I'm sure you don't want to give the Canadian government ideas..

I worked with a 3-star on a report once, and he said:

"You know, Canada's changing and it doesn't mean the old stock'll like it.
We gotta drag em along kicking and screaming anyway."
--


----------



## singh1947 (4 Dec 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Lt.-Gen. (retd) Maisonneuve: Clearing the air about my anti-woke speech
> 
> 
> 
> Maisonneuve just put this out today.





> Successful and safe completion of that mission does not leave room for personal expression. Expressing your individuality or personal choices should be done when not in uniform.


Hearing this from a French dude after Bill 21 makes me glad this is being ignored.

@Brad Sallows Multiculturalism's just state liberalism. 
Every community lives by its own norms unless it aggressive harms another community.






						UNMASKING.INDIA on Instagram: "KHALSA WAHEER DAY 8 ⚔️ . ."
					






					www.instagram.com
				




Only interest of mine is Singhs being able to open carry at religious processions and out in public.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> "Jagmeet Singh and his penchant for demonizing white anglos."
> 
> View attachment 75296
> 
> ...


My wife is half South Indian, interesting the racial divide that exist in Bollywood.


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife is half South Indian, interesting the racial divide that exist in Bollywood.


I have a friend or 20 from India. Apparently the bigotry, hatred, classism and religious rivalry can be really, really bad back in India as they have educated me (2nd hand info)


----------



## dimsum (4 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> Only interest of mine is Singhs being able to open carry at religious processions and out in public.
> 
> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


I'm assuming that you mean the kirpan?  Can the blade not be dulled so it's not a "weapon"?


----------



## GK .Dundas (4 Dec 2022)

One the places I worked at had one guy who quite frankly was almost utterly useless but several of the other employees basically carried him .
Apparently  they came from the same small area in India and his Family was as it was explained to me was IMPORTANT. 
And therefore it was their duty and responsibility to look after him . It was was a lot more complex then that but sometime during the twenty minute explanation of the Indian caste system I lost interest. 


ArmyRick said:


> I have a friend or 20 from India. Apparently the bigotry, hatred, classism and religious rivalry can be really, really bad back in India as they have educated me (2nd hand info)


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## dimsum (4 Dec 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> One the places I worked at had one guy who quite frankly was almost utterly useless but several of the other employees basically carried him .
> Apparently  they came from the same small area in India and his Family was as it was explained to me was IMPORTANT.
> And therefore it was their duty and responsibility to look after him . It was was a lot more complex then that but sometime during the twenty minute explanation of the Indian caste system I lost interest.


To be fair, that's not exclusively an Indian thing.  I'm pretty sure that most cultures have a variation of that (minus the caste system - or at least such a formalized caste system).


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## Brad Sallows (4 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> Multiculturalism's just state liberalism.
> Every community lives by its own norms unless it aggressive harms another community.


The doctrine of multiculturalism as practiced in Canada isn't liberal.  If it were liberal, multicultural practices would be left on the table for people to take up or ignore as they chose.  Governments promote it, which is not leaving it on the table.


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## dimsum (4 Dec 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The doctrine of multiculturalism as practiced in Canada isn't liberal.  If it were liberal, multicultural practices would be left on the table for people to take up or ignore as they chose.  Governments promote it, which is not leaving it on the table.


Govts promote it in their media releases, sponsored festivals, and such, but they're not forcing people to go to those events or for folks to practice their cultural practices.  They're just making people aware that they're there.


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## singh1947 (4 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife is half South Indian, interesting the racial divide that exist in Bollywood.





ArmyRick said:


> I have a friend or 20 from India. Apparently the bigotry, hatred, classism and religious rivalry can be really, really bad back in India as they have educated me (2nd hand info)


Traditional Sikh orders don't initiate outside the 4 castes & punish inter caste marriage with death.



GK .Dundas said:


> One the places I worked at had one guy who quite frankly was almost utterly useless but several of the other employees basically carried him .
> Apparently  they came from the same small area in India and his Family was as it was explained to me was IMPORTANT.
> And therefore it was their duty and responsibility to look after him . It was was a lot more complex then that but sometime during the twenty minute explanation of the Indian caste system I lost interest.


Yeah, I'm glad Sikhi reveres weapons over lineage. South/East India had the whole change occupation change your village/lineage thing. North is just tribal.



dimsum said:


> I'm assuming that you mean the kirpan?  Can the blade not be dulled so it's not a "weapon"?








No, I meant firearms. Kirpan is a weapon and I already carry a 3ft sword.



Brad Sallows said:


> The doctrine of multiculturalism as practiced in Canada isn't liberal.  If it were liberal, multicultural practices would be left on the table for people to take up or ignore as they chose.  Governments promote it, which is not leaving it on the table.


Dude, I honestly don't care I just wanna carry weapons.

Guess, this is an example of anti-white racism @Fishbone Jones was talking about:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599219866468483072
I'll be away for a few days.
Bollywood's dead & started in Lahore.
A lot of the female stars are southern.
People just think South = Black.
Outside Tamils or Biharis people aren't.







This tribe resembles the Indus Valley people closest. The Indus Valley wasn't black & Aryans aren't white. 🤷‍♀️⚔️

India's really 3 or 4 races but thread drift..

Chinese travelers mentioned that both Ashoka Samrat (Maurya) and Bodh Avatar (Buddha) were Panjabi. 😁






ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


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## dimsum (4 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> No, I meant firearms. Kirpan is a weapon and I already carry a 3ft sword.


Ok - forgive my ignorance but why do you think the govt of Canada would allow you to open-carry firearms because you're Sikh?  Or a 3' sword for that matter?  

AFAIK it's not one of the 5 Ks - at least the Kirpan is one so I can understand the cultural allowances for carrying one.


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## Brad Sallows (4 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> Dude, I honestly don't care I just wanna carry weapons.


Dude, I honestly just want everyone to be able to carry weapons - without having to point to some ancestral cultural practice, and as a constitutionally-protected right.


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## Brad Sallows (4 Dec 2022)

dimsum said:


> Govts promote it in their media releases, sponsored festivals, and such, but they're not forcing people to go to those events or for folks to practice their cultural practices.  They're just making people aware that they're there.


Governments shouldn't be in the habit of sponsoring culture.  Culture preservation is the business of people who want to practice it.  Governments have a lot of other more important things to spend money on before culture.


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## singh1947 (6 Dec 2022)

@Brad Sallows The ancestral custom is the foundation of the constitution.
See no reason to separate the two, but entirely agree.
The Saxon name arises from the Seax.
A culture is always patronized and subsidized, look at woke capitalism.


dimsum said:


> allow
> 
> allowances.


*ਸਿਖਮਤਵਿਚਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਜੀਦਾਪ੍ਰਤੱਖਦਰਸ਼ਨਗੁਰੂਗ੍ਰੰਥਸਾਹਿਬਜੀਦਾਹੈਅਥਵਾਗੁਰਾਂਸੰਤਾਂਦਾਹੈ।।ਤਥਾਹੀਭਗਵਤੀਦਾਪ੍ਰਤੱਖਧੇਇਸਰੂਪਸ੍ਰੀਸਾਹਿਬਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂਦਾਦਰਸ਼ਨਹੈ।। *
In Sikhi, to view the [sargun, physical] form of Akal Purkh you can look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi, Goddess] view weapons [shastar and astar, melee and missile].

Weapons are the physical form of the Goddess.
Not really worried, and been carrying a 3ft Kirpan for years.
Need to/supposed to carry a missile weapon as well - thinking a sling?

https://www.reddit com/r/Sikh/comments/gin5v7/kirpan_the_struggle_for_spiritual_and_martial/
(Long embed on the British attempt to ban the Kirpan)

Government doesn't allow what it cannot stop.
Open carry of non-restricted is already legal.
In addition, to 5 K's there are also 5 weapons which includes firearms.
Singhs carry rifles to the Gurudawara, and a Sword alone is boring..

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> Guess, this is an example of anti-white racism @Fishbone Jones was talking about:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1599219866468483072


🤣 About as pathetic as your own brand of racism, bigotry and pandering. All you've whined about is how you aren't being accommodated. How you want to push your own extremist views to everyone else's detriment or exclusion. "Gimme, gimme, gimme. I want, I want, I want. Whitey just keeping me down. I should be able to pack mule around enough personal weapons to protect my religion in Canada, to the exclusion of everyone else."

Stop trying to transfer your particular brand of racism to someone else, to make yourself look tolerant. Because you aren't tolerant and the only solution you have is to arm yourself to the teeth to intimidate others who don't share your bigotry. We know who you are. We've seen you before.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Dec 2022)




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## singh1947 (6 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> 🤣 About as pathetic as your own brand of racism, bigotry and pandering. All you've whined about is how you aren't being accommodated. How you want to push your own extremist views to everyone else's detriment or exclusion. "Gimme, gimme, gimme. I want, I want, I want. Whitey just keeping me down. I should be able to pack mule around enough personal weapons to protect my religion in Canada, to the exclusion of everyone else."
> 
> Stop trying to transfer your particular brand of racism to someone else, to make yourself look tolerant. Because you aren't tolerant and the only solution you have is to arm yourself to the teeth to intimidate others who don't share your bigotry. We know who you are. We've seen you before.


@Brad Sallows wants everyone to be able to keep weapons.
We want everyone to want to keep weapons.

Just because we keep a low profile due to people like you doesn't mean it's not a shared purpose.
Stop trying to label those who disagree with you racist.

Stop trying to label everyone less pathetic than you as outside some 'mainstream' and in need of accommodating.



> ਬਾਤਨਫ਼ਕੀਰੀਜ਼ਾਹਰਅਮੀਰੀ।
> ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਗਰੀਬਕੀਰਖਿਆਜਰਵਾਣੇਕੀਭਖਿਆ।।
> 
> Batan Faqiri, Zahir Amiri
> ...


ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ


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## singh1947 (6 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> blasphemy


_Pretty pathetic._

I'm not the one race-baiting, but the worst I'd say is something about a white minority by 2035-2040.
Even then, I've seen what that's like in big cities and it's mostly harmony without a lot of the problems in other areas.

I guess being content is a crime.


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## Quirky (6 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> but the worst I'd say is something about a white minority by 2035-2040.



I’m personally quite alright with the new world order where the women and coloured folk do all the work and white men can relax and enjoy their lives.


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## singh1947 (6 Dec 2022)

Quirky said:


> I’m personally quite alright with the new world order where the women and coloured folk do all the work and white men can relax and enjoy their lives.


Who'll pay for my _gibsmedat_ & _accommodations _then?


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## Jarnhamar (6 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> _Pretty pathetic._
> 
> I'm not the one race-baiting, but the worst I'd say is something about a white minority by 2035-2040.
> Even then, I've seen what that's like in big cities and it's mostly harmony without a lot of the problems in other areas.
> ...


This is the way.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Dec 2022)

singh1947 said:


> @Brad Sallows wants everyone to be able to keep weapons.
> We want everyone to want to keep weapons.
> 
> Just because we keep a low profile due to people like you doesn't mean it's not a shared purpose.
> ...


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## singh1947 (7 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> This is the way.





This is the way.


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## Furniture (Thursday at 11:27)

The latest news on the White Supremacy front. 

'A raw nerve': Alberta professor to assess level of white supremacy in military


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## ArmyRick (Thursday at 14:08)

Furniture said:


> The latest news on the White Supremacy front.
> 
> 'A raw nerve': Alberta professor to assess level of white supremacy in military


I thought Dr (I guess technically) Barbara Perry was hired a few yeasr ago to crack down on white nationalism/supremacy/hate/bigotry/anti-whatever in the CAF/DND. What happened to her accusations, er oops, witch hunt, no, no, can't say that, her findings?


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## singh1947 (Thursday at 18:20)

ArmyRick said:


> I thought Dr (I guess technically) Barbara Perry was hired a few yeasr ago to crack down on white nationalism/supremacy/hate/bigotry/anti-whatever in the CAF/DND. What happened to her accusations, er oops, witch hunt, no, no, can't say that, her findings?


Still in the process of hiring 'white nationalists' she can find and report.

Blame recruiting.


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## Navy_Pete (Thursday at 19:02)

I'm not really sure how they expect to do this; do they expect white nationalists to self identify and respond honestly to 'anonymous' surveys?

And if someone has joined the military with the express purpose of gaining some kind of combat skills for a race war, wouldn't they just continue to lie?

From the cases I can remember, the people were either identified through monitoring of white suprecist groups, and cross referencing to find out they were in the CAF, or in the case of the reservist in Calgary, outed by hackers as running a neo-nazi forum. And there was something like 10 people or so total out of the 70k in uniform. And participation in the freedom rally was pretty limited, and the people were being kicked out anyway for not being vaccinated.

We already have plenty of tools to kick people out for being racist, so if they do something we can take action. No reason to have some kind of CAF stasi actively monitoring all members. And I'm sure there are racists that aren't some kind of organized white supremacist
If they can come up with some kind of way to better screen people for it without further slowing down recruiting that wouldn't be a bad thing, but I think it'd be naive to expect there won't be any, or we'll completely get rid of things like sexual assault, unless it's somehow miraculously eliminated in Canada.


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## RangerRay (Thursday at 19:08)

This may sound like trolling or being a dick, but why would anyone be surprised that people who are drawn to ideologies like nationalism and militarism are also drawn to a career in the military?  Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want fascists, communists or racists in the military, but I do find it odd when people sound surprised that some people with horrible ideologies are drawn to the military.


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## RangerRay (Thursday at 19:14)

Navy_Pete said:


> I'm not really sure how they expect to do this; do they expect white nationalists to self identify and respond honestly to 'anonymous' surveys?





Navy_Pete said:


> And if someone has joined the military with the express purpose of gaining some kind of combat skills for a race war, wouldn't they just continue to lie?
> 
> From the cases I can remember, the people were either identified through monitoring of white suprecist groups, and cross referencing to find out they were in the CAF, or in the case of the reservist in Calgary, outed by hackers as running a neo-nazi forum. And there was something like 10 people or so total out of the 70k in uniform. And participation in the freedom rally was pretty limited, and the people were being kicked out anyway for not being vaccinated.
> 
> ...



“Welcome to the interview. First question:  Are you a racist douche?”

“No.”

“Next question…”


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## Navy_Pete (Thursday at 19:31)

RangerRay said:


> “Welcome to the interview. First question:  Are you a racist douche?”
> 
> “No.”
> 
> “Next question…”


lol... my first reaction to that was being just a douche is okay, and would be an asset for some trades, as long as you are an equal opportunity douche.


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## brihard (Thursday at 21:23)

Has CAF started seeing a requirement to list a memberMs social media accounts and usage in security clearance forms yet?


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## SeaKingTacco (Thursday at 22:04)

brihard said:


> Has CAF started seeing a requirement to list a memberMs social media accounts and usage in security clearance forms yet?


Not yet.


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## Halifax Tar (Friday at 07:22)

brihard said:


> Has CAF started seeing a requirement to list a memberMs social media accounts and usage in security clearance forms yet?



Is this a thing elsewhere ?


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## Remius (Friday at 07:55)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is this a thing elsewhere ?


Yes


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## Halifax Tar (Friday at 08:05)

Remius said:


> Yes



Seems a bit over reaching to me.


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## dimsum (Friday at 08:39)

Halifax Tar said:


> Seems a bit over reaching to me.


Depends on the job requirement.


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## IKnowNothing (Friday at 09:14)

Halifax Tar said:


> Seems a bit over reaching to me.


Definitely a hard line to walk.
We don't require disclosure, but have a policy that covers use, rule of thumb- it's not the companies business until you make it so
ex.

inappropriate interaction with or about coworker
criminal behavior
-public demeaning of company/coworker

The only time "expression" comes into it is when an employee has taken steps to integrate their professional role into their personal social media, effectively making their accounts representative of the company, and even then it greatly depends on how visible their role is.


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## Halifax Tar (Friday at 10:02)

IKnowNothing said:


> Definitely a hard line to walk.
> We don't require disclosure, but have a policy that covers use, rule of thumb- it's not the companies business until you make it so
> ex.
> 
> ...



The CAF has existing polices to investigate and prosecute misuse of social media, use them. 

Anything more than that seems a little invasive to me. 



dimsum said:


> Depends on the job requirement.



I'm listening.


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## RangerRay (Friday at 19:52)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is this a thing elsewhere ?


I believe many police forces do this.


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## Navy_Pete (Yesterday at 13:08)

Again, if someone has joined the CAF to learn combat arms skills to fight a race war, would they also not just give fake/filtered social media accounts if they had to do that?

If specific groups are targeting the CAF, surveilling specific groups is the answer, not surveying the entire CAF.


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## brihard (Yesterday at 13:34)

Navy_Pete said:


> Again, if someone has joined the CAF to learn combat arms skills to fight a race war, would they also not just give fake/filtered social media accounts if they had to do that?



You’d be surprised how dumb some people are. 

Anyway, the world of security clearances is a world unto itself…


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## dapaterson (Yesterday at 13:37)

brihard said:


> You’d be surprised how dumb some people are.


No.    Not surprised.


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## Navy_Pete (Yesterday at 13:43)

brihard said:


> You’d be surprised how dumb some people are.
> 
> Anyway, the world of security clearances is a world unto itself…


You forget where I work sir!

But yes, there is an existing security clearance process. It is massively under resourced, but the actual process itself is ridiculous. For someone who was employed by the GOC throught the previous period when you go for an update, it's somewhat redundant to have to submit that during security renewals. For someone in the military it's even sillier, we worked where they told us to, so it's already on an MPRR and Guardian.


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## dapaterson (Yesterday at 16:22)

It may have changed since, but when I was both a federal public servant and a part time reservist, I had to complete two identical security clearances, one for each.

One was approved level II, the other was rejected to be redone.  Both were processed through the same office...


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## Remius (Yesterday at 16:25)

dapaterson said:


> It may have changed since, but when I was both a federal public servant and a part time reservist, I had to complete two identical security clearances, one for each.
> 
> One was approved level II, the other was rejected to be redone.  Both were processed through the same office...


It hasn’t.


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## Navy_Pete (Yesterday at 17:20)

dapaterson said:


> It may have changed since, but when I was both a federal public servant and a part time reservist, I had to complete two identical security clearances, one for each.
> 
> One was approved level II, the other was rejected to be redone.  Both were processed through the same office...


Similarly if you get a security clearance while working at company A, but move to company B, you need to reapply.

I don't know why it doesn't follow the individual or is attached to their SIN.

It's causing massive churn for getting any kind of small jobs done (like construction on bases) where there is normally a high turnover in workers. Shut down a few jobs that I'm aware of in my small corner of the world, and I'm sure it's a general problem.


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## Good2Golf (Yesterday at 17:41)

dapaterson said:


> It may have changed since, but when I was both a federal public servant and a part time reservist, I had to complete two identical security clearances, one for each.
> 
> One was approved level II, the other was rejected to be redone.  Both were processed through the same office...


Pshawwww….come back to compare when you update a TS and fail an ERC.  #gotthetshirt


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