# Canada to lease Russian-made helicopters: MacKay



## vonGarvin (30 Jul 2008)

Defence Minister Peter MacKay says Canada will lease six to eight Russian-built helicopters to ferry troops around the battlefield in Afghanistan until it can purchase new U.S. aircraft.
He describes it as a stopgap measure.
Securing helicopter transport to get soldiers off the bomb-laced roads of Kandahar was a principal condition when Parliament extended the combat mission until 2011.
MacKay says a deal to purchase six CH-47-D Chinooks from the U.S. Army has been worked out, but those heavy-lift aircraft will not arrive until late this year -- or early next.
More here.


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## Jammer (30 Jul 2008)

MR,
I'll take my chances in my Bison....


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Jul 2008)

I saw some interesting footage on youtube of the Hip just now.


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## GUNS (30 Jul 2008)

Who will be operating the helicopters, us or them?


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## vonGarvin (30 Jul 2008)

I imagine "they" would, since it would take longer than to the end of the current year to train the crews, maintainers, etc.


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## OldSolduer (30 Jul 2008)

Well......I don't know what to think  about this........one part says "YES!!" the other part goes....."YIKES!!!" :


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## geo (30 Jul 2008)

well... if it gets troops & supplies off the road - moving them from KAF to the various FOBs without the risk of IEDs.... so much the better.  What took us so long ?


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## Retired AF Guy (30 Jul 2008)

Since the article mentions that we are "leasing" the choppers, that implies that we are getting civilian helicopters vice 
borrowing" some from our NATO allies (E.g. the Poles, Hungarians, Czechs).  If that's the case then the choppers have to be brought up to NATO standards in relation to safety, communications eqpt, EW gear, etc. Also, we have to train the pilots be trained according to Canadian/NATO flying standards. Seems like a lot of work to me. Will have to wait I guess, until more details become available.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Jul 2008)

Hope they get a decent paint job, too.  That old WP paint pattern wouldn't go over too well zipping around the Afghan skies after all these years, I would think.   ;D


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## Jammer (30 Jul 2008)

Hmmm....
Flashback to the Soviet occupation days


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jul 2008)

I wonder if the Poles might operate them for us? They already fly them in Iraq
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2636875810100232605BYTJQt

Also they have this
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105211&page=4

Also
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e16_1212804101

This also allows me to post some Polish Hind Porn, can we start a "Canada should buy the Hind' thread yet again?  ;D
http://www.leechvideo.com/video/view245175.html


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## The Bread Guy (31 Jul 2008)

Slight hijack - MSM says UK is considering a similar plan....

*Forces may have to rent helicopters*
By Kim Sengupta, The Independent (UK), 31 Jul 08

British forces are so short of helicopters in Afghanistan and Iraq that they are considering renting them from other countries, or even from the controversial US security contractor Blackwater.

As a roadside bomb in Afghanistan's Helmand province claimed the life of another UK paratrooper, The Independent has learnt that the Ministry of Defence will hold a crisis meeting at 5pm today to discuss leasing helicopters from former Warsaw Pact countries as well as commercial companies.

Chaired by the Defence Secretary Des Browne, the summit will be attended by senior military and government personnel who will be expected to solve the acute helicopter shortage.

Nato, but not Britain directly, is believed to be negotiating with Blackwater, which has come under fierce criticism from the Iraqi government and the US Congress after 17 civilians were shot dead in Baghdad last year. Another option being explored by the MoD is leasing Cougar helicopters from oil companies involved in offshore production.....

More on link

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread...


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## geo (31 Jul 2008)

Tony... not much of a hijack there.... just points out that this kind of resource (tactical airlift helicopters) is scarce.  The kind of war that the TB have been conducting - using mines & IEDs has crated a situation where helicpoters are essential.  Canada, the UK and pert much all other countries (possibly excluding the US) are woefully short of resources.


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## TrexLink (31 Jul 2008)

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/470237


[size=12pt]*Helicopters, drones leased to help troops, MacKay says*

Jul 31, 2008 04:30 AM

Bruce Campion-Smith
TheStar.com 
Ottawa Bureau

LÉVIS, QUE.–Canada is leasing up to eight Russian-built helicopters to fly troops around southern Afghanistan and protect them from the threat of roadside bombs and ambushes, Defence Minister Peter MacKay says.

MacKay described the move yesterday as a stopgap measure until Canada takes delivery of American-built Chinook transport choppers.

As well, Canada is leasing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for reconnaissance over the Afghan battlefield until it gets possession of the drones it wants to purchase.

Supplying choppers and aerial drones was a condition placed on the government in return for Parliament's endorsement of extending the Afghan mission to 2011.

"We've made progress in that regard," MacKay said during a meeting of the Conservative caucus.

"In the near future, we'll purchase tactical lift helicopters and we'll also have UAVs at the disposal of the Canadian Forces to provide greater oversight of the routes that soldiers and civilians have been travelling."

Canada has finalized a deal to buy six CH-47-D Chinooks from the U.S. Army, but those aren't expected to be delivered until early next year, he said. In the interim, Canada intends to lease between six and eight MI-8 transport choppers, "performing much the same purpose as the Chinooks would."

However, no details were given about the lease arrangements or when the choppers could be in service in the Kandahar region.

The new drones and choppers will mean an extra 200 armed forces personnel will be sent to Afghanistan, but MacKay made it clear that Canada's contribution, which includes 2,500 soldiers, stops there.

He reiterated the demand that other NATO nations step up with contributions of troops and equipment in southern Afghanistan.

"We're doing our bit. We're doing enough," MacKay said. [/size]


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## Nfld Sapper (31 Jul 2008)

Just to add.....


PUBLICATION:  GLOBE AND MAIL 
IDN:          082130182 
DATE:         2008.07.31 
PAGE:         A9 
BYLINE:       MURRAY BREWSTER 
SECTION:      National News              
SOURCE:       CP 
EDITION:      Metro 
DATELINE:     Ottawa ONT                        
WORDS:        600 
WORD COUNT:     512 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MILITARY HARDWARE Canada to lease Russian-built copters for use in Afghanistan, MacKay says 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 MURRAY BREWSTER   The Canadian Press   OTTAWA Canada will lease up to eight Russian-built helicopters to ferry supplies around the battlefield in Afghanistan until it gets new U.S. choppers, Defence Minister Peter MacKay says. 

  It is a stopgap measure meant to get Canadian army supply convoys off the bomb-laced roads of Kandahar, where explosives have been taking an increasingly deadly toll. 

Securing helicopter transport was a principal condition of the Manley commission report on Canada's future role in Afghanistan last winter and a key caveat of Parliament's extension of the combat mission until 2011. The Conservative government was given until February, 2009, to come up with the helicopters and a flight of unmanned surveillance planes. 

  A $375-million deal to acquire six CH-47D Chinooks from the U.S. 

Army has been worked out, but those heavy-lift aircraft will not arrive until late this year - or early next. 

  In the meantime, Mr. MacKay said, the Defence Department has worked out a lease involving "six to eight" Russian-made Mi-8 choppers. 

  The former Soviet-era helicopters "have similar capacity to a Chinook," Mr. MacKay told reporters heading yesterday into the Conservative caucus summer retreat in Levis, Que. 

  "So they're heavy-lift. ... They'll be used to transport materials along the same routes, performing much the same purpose [as] the Chinooks would."   The Mi-8s are, in fact, considered a medium-lift helicopter and date back in their original design to the 1960s. They were a familiar sight in the skies of Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. 

  Mr. MacKay would not say what former Soviet Bloc country - or private company - would provide the aircraft, nor was the cost of the lease made public. 

  An official in the minister's office said a detailed formal announcement will be made next week. 

  The NATO mission in Afghanistan has suffered from a shortage of troop- and supply-helicopter support. 

  The military alliance was put in the embarrassing position late last year of approving the lease of private helicopters and fixed-wing planes for supply missions at remote desert and mountain-top bases. 

  Member countries were unwilling to risk their own aircraft and crews on perilous missions. 

  The Canadian army is one of the only major troop-contributing countries in Afghanistan without its own dedicated helicopter support and the Conservatives have struggled for over two years to acquire U.S.-made CH-47s. 

  If the leased Mi-8 helicopters come from another NATO country, such as Hungary or Slovakia, they would be able to carry both troops and equipment. 

  But Mr. MacKay's careful choice of words and reference to "materials" suggests the rentals will likely belong to a private company, a defence analyst said. 

  "They're not certified to transport our personnel, except of course in an emergency, so they would be leased to transport equipment only," said Alain Pellerin, executive director of the Conference of Defence Associations. 

  Last winter, Poland offered Canada access to two of its Mi-17 battlefield transport helicopters, part of its increased commitment to the Afghan mission. 

  They were expected to arrive this summer, but military officials have privately expressed concern about availability. 

  Polish special forces soldiers operating in Kandahar would have first call on the choppers, not Canadians. 

  Another key condition for remaining in Afghanistan, the purchase of unmanned surveillance drones, is also well in hand, Mr. MacKay said. 

  A deal, possibly worth $100-million, to lease a flight of unmanned aerial vehicles - or UAVs - from MacDonald Dettwiler and Associates Ltd. and Israeli Air Industries Ltd. was expected to be approved this week by the federal cabinet. 

ADDED SEARCH TERMS: 

GEOGRAPHIC NAME: Canada; Afghanistan 

SUBJECT TERM:defence; helicopters; strife; political;                      foreign policy 

ORGANIZATION NAME: Armed Forces


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## retiredgrunt45 (31 Jul 2008)

Its very apparent that the post cold war days have hamstrung NATO. Because even after almost 20 years since the end of the cold war, many of the former warsaw pact countries still have more kit than we do.  :-[ Go figure.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 Jul 2008)

I suspect that Russian "medium lift" is closer to Western "Heavy lift" which for the Russians means a Mi-26

Blackhawk is 2 tons internal and 4 tons external 
Range 28 miles

Mi-8t = 4,000kg. 3,000kg slung 
range 465Km

Mi-26 20,000kg internal
range 1,900km

CH47D 12,000kg
 741km range


Retiredgrunt45
Well it helps that they never throw ANYTHING out!! I am sure that giant Tsar cannon is still listed as active.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Jul 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I suspect that Russian "medium lift" is closer to Western "Heavy lift" which for the Russians means a Mi-26



Well, anything is possible but the news article on the link says:

"In the meantime, MacKay says the Defence Department has worked out a lease involving Russian-made Mi-8 choppers."

So its looks like Hips at this time...


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## Retired AF Guy (7 Aug 2008)

The latest poop from group. Looks like the military will be renting the Hips from Skylink of Toronto. See these links for more:

 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080807/mckay_choppers_080807/20080807?hub=TopStories

http://www.canadaeast.com/rss/article/377329


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## inferno (7 Aug 2008)

I should have gotten into the helicopter manufacturing industry instead of the airforce. Someone, somewhere must be just pulling in the money now.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Aug 2008)

I will give this government credit for thinking outside the box to deal with issues, they fumble the ball on occasion, but as few of them had any real time in government they do a decent job. I had to laugh at the Liberal defence critic bemoaning the "2 wasted years" How about they bemoan the "wasted decade" or the fact that they sent troops to the south with little thought for the long term?


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## Franko (8 Aug 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I will give this government credit for thinking outside the box to deal with issues, they fumble the ball on occasion, but as few of them had any real time in government they do a decent job. I had to laugh at the Liberal defence critic bemoaning the "2 wasted years" How about they bemoan the "wasted decade" or the fact that they sent troops to the south with little thought for the long term?



Meh, it's just another sound bite from clueless Black...same as Staples stab with "not a silver bullet" and the stunning fact that "helicopters can be shot down".

I'll be glad when I see my guys get on them.

Regards


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## OldSolduer (8 Aug 2008)

Just who is that bald fool who stated the obvious "helicopters can be shot down"?

You don't have to be head cashier at Wal Mart to figure that out.


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## Jammer (8 Aug 2008)

The Mi 8s will not carry troops unless it is an emergency. Cargo only.
That's why we got the Chinooks as well.
Steven Staples is gay....


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## GAP (8 Aug 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> You don't have to be head cashier at Wal Mart to figure that out.



Oh yes you do.....that is an important position with a future.....you could go on television and go on to  be a Military Expert !!


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## 2 Cdo (8 Aug 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Just who is that bald fool who stated the obvious "helicopters can be shot down"?
> 
> You don't have to be head cashier at Wal Mart to figure that out.



Quite the apt description of Mr Staples. He always reminds me of the geeky kid at school who always got picked on, or was  the class monitor whenever the teacher left the room. ;D (Plus I think he's afraid of women! )


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## OldSolduer (8 Aug 2008)

I get a bit cheesed at the "experts" that CBC and CTV make enquiries of.

To ask retired Generals and Colonels are one thing. They've been there, done that, got the Tshirt.

This bald fools credentials are??? Has he ever served in the military?


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## vonGarvin (8 Aug 2008)

Steven Staples is a member of the Rideau Institute.  Though critical of the government, it is"...an independent research, advocacy and consulting group based in Ottawa. It provides research, analysis and commentary on public policy issues to decision makers, opinion leaders and the public. It is a federally registered non-profit organization, established in January 2007." (from its website)  The site also mentions that it is associated with Ceasefire.  Though I don't agree with his opinions, he did state the obvious on his interview, that is, they can be shot down.  I'm certain that Mr. Staples wishes no harm to our soldiers there, and though he may have differing opinions on things, his opposition to the war is just indicative of how great out country is, free speech and all.


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## George Wallace (24 Aug 2008)

Just to add to the discussion:

24 August 2008     http://www.nato.int/isaf/docu/pressreleases/2008/08-august/pr080824-427.html     


*One dead, three wounded during emergency landing*

 KABUL, Afghanistan — An Mi-8 supply helicopter, contracted by International Security Assistance Forces, was forced to make an emergency landing shortly after takeoff from an ISAF base in Kunar province August 24.
One person on board the aircraft died and three were wounded during the incident.

Contact Information ISAF Public Affairs Office
Tel: +93 (0)79 51 1155 - Mobile: 0093 (0) 799 55 8291 pressoffice@hq.isaf.nato.int - www.nato.int/isaf/


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## twistedcables (18 Nov 2008)

???


PASAB, Afghanistan -- Until they get their own helicopters next year, Canadian troops in Afghanistan will have access to six civilian choppers to lessen the risk of coming under insurgent attack while moving along the country's notoriously dangerous roads.

The Mi-8 helicopters are being contracted from Toronto-based Sky Link as a stopgap measure. The first flight of the aircraft took place at Kandahar Airfield yesterday.

"As a task force, it allows us to transport with the Mi-8's cargo and with the Chinook's personnel, with a view to try and get Canadians off the roads here in Afghanistan where they are exposed to all the dangers of this country -- ambushes and IEDs and the other things that all Canadians are aware of," said Col. Christopher Coates, air wing commander of Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

The decision to contract the Mi-8s, which will be flown by civilian pilots, is the result of a recommendation from the Manley report last spring that Canada should have some air capabilities for its operations in Afghanistan.

The Mi-8 is a medium twin-turbine transport helicopter that is one of the world's most-produced choppers.

It is used by more than 50 countries.

Although there are models of the Mi-8s that can be armed, that won't be the case in this instance.

"It is a very versatile aircraft with extremely good capability for high, hot and heavy operations, which is what we are looking at doing here," said Bob Waring, project manager for Sky Link.

Waring said he's not worried about sending civilian pilots into military operations.

"Well, the risks are consistent across the board, whether you are wearing a uniform or not," he said.


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## aesop081 (18 Nov 2008)

twistedcables said:
			
		

> ???



Whats the confusion ?


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## chris_log (18 Nov 2008)

Isn't this old news?


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## Colin Parkinson (18 Nov 2008)

The news is old,but it seems the flights just started yesterday.


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## cudmore (25 Nov 2010)

At least four: 

from CBC.ca
Questions are being raised about the Conservative government's procurement of Russian helicopters that Canadian pilots have been secretly using to fly troops into combat in Afghanistan.

Until this week, the government had been silent about the MI-17 "Hip" helicopters that were leased last year. The government still refuses to provide any details of their procurement, including how much the lease cost.

"It was competed, it was open, but for reasons of security I really can't go into any other details," Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Wednesday.

Military sources told CBC News that the idea of leasing Russian choppers was approved by cabinet early last year. It took some time to train Canadian crews, but the helicopters went into service quickly, used by Canadian special forces troops on secret missions

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/11/24/helicopter-russian.html#ixzz16JUnV8JZ


also, a fun picture here of one bird in Canadian livery:    http://www.mikewardsgallery.fotopic.net/p65341423.html


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## my72jeep (25 Nov 2010)

nice pic... now what would be cool is if Canada had some Hind gun ships.


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## George Wallace (25 Nov 2010)

"Procurement" has connotations of purchasing, while "Leasing" relates to "Renting".  I am sure that many of CBC’s regular crowd of wackos aren’t going to pick up on the “renting” part as they post their comments (now over 176).   The fact that they are used for “secret” or “highly classified” missions should be of no concern to members of the NDP, as they (NDP) fail one of the tests – “Need to know”.  The NDP has no need to know about the finer aspects of operations conducted by SOF in dealing with the enemy.

I wonder if the Public is likely to get up in arms over the “procurement” of rental cars by DND from companies such as Budget or Enterprise.  I think not.


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## Navalsnpr (25 Nov 2010)

Better to fly in leased helicopters than to drive over IED's!


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## cudmore (25 Nov 2010)

"regular crowd of wackos"   That's awesome!


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## Jarnhamar (25 Nov 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if the Public is likely to get up in arms over the “procurement” of rental cars by DND from companies such as Budget or Enterprise.  I think not.



They would if they knew the CF spends more on stupid Budget/Enterprise rented cars than we do on helictopers..and probably tanks too.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Nov 2010)

Actually the NDP should be jumping up and down with joy and push the government to keep an international squadron equipped with these helos' to support UN missions.


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## GAP (25 Nov 2010)

I wonder if they will continue to use the 17's and bring ours home in July.....


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Nov 2010)

Other than the military, you won’t be able to fly them here without a significant investment in airworthiness certification. Frankly the Russians would be smart to get them certified for Canadian flight ops, might be the kick in the nuts our helicopter builders in North America need. Several Russian models are already certified for flight here. Mil-26 and various kamov models.


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## larry Strong (25 Nov 2010)

This picture will have model makers in a tizzy. They use the Ka 32 in the logging industry in BC that I know of.


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## PMedMoe (25 Nov 2010)

Off topic, was there a need to start a new topic when you posted the same thing (links and all) here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/95184/post-994318.html#msg994318   ???


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## dogger1936 (26 Nov 2010)

I actually got to play around in one at the fob one day. Kinda cool.


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## dogger1936 (26 Nov 2010)

I find it weird that they are saying "russian helocopters" are the russian helo's or a russian designed helo.
I had thought it was the Poles that were flying them.


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## cudmore (28 Nov 2010)

i think that makes three different iterations of MI-17s in use by/for/with the CF in Kandahar:  the chartered Skylink birds, flown by their pilots on milk/mail runs, the Polish air force-owned helos, flown by Poles (these last two were announced in 2008) and the leased choppers flown by CF pilots, painted in our colours (never announced).


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Nov 2010)

James,

I'm curious as to what your point is- that the CF sometimes does stuff, when fighting a war, that it doesn't run by the CBC first? 

Do you suppose that there is a reason for this?

I'm not intending to be hostile, honest.  I'm just saying...


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## Jarnhamar (28 Nov 2010)

Flying around in Hind's would be badass.






yeaaaa I know a bunch were shot down.

That's becaue they weren't painted like this


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## cudmore (29 Nov 2010)

seakingtacco:  
I don't have a point.  nor, contrary to some opinons here of my employer, an agenda.
I'm just betting people here would think the fact Canadian Forces pilots are flying Canadian liveried MI-17's in Afghanistan is interesting.  
It's military current affairs and news, isn't it?


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Nov 2010)

I don't actually believe the "evil CBC conspiracy agenda" line.  I accept that you write the stories as you see them.

I was just curious to see if you were interested in a particular reaction/angle from the readership here at Army.ca, that's all.

Cheers.


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## cudmore (29 Nov 2010)

More readers, listners and viewers!
Actually, after lurking here for years and seeing some of my stuff, and other people's stuff, pop up in these forums, I thought I'd just start being more proactive about it.
I'm here as a participant, not a quote grabber.
It's good to hear/see reaction to the work we do.  And you folks here are often the key stakeholders in a lot of the stories I've written.
Seeing people's reaction is helpful.
This story. For instance was neat, cause there was the awesome "wacko CBC comment," some thoughts on what procurements ought to be public, and some responses that indicated folks were interested in what we'd reported.
Long story short:  this seems to be the place to discuss military news, and that's what I often cover.
And, really, what's reporting about if its not about starting a conversation?


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## SeaKingTacco (29 Nov 2010)

James,

Fair enough.  Welcome to army.ca!  

Cheers,

SeaKingTacco


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