# Re: Messes dues



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:11:51 -0700*
I never saw anything wrong with paying mess dues. Made a lot more sense than
when I hit civvie street, and was forced to pay union dues.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alain Lanthier" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:46 AM
Subject: Messes dues
> The following comments were submitted by
> Alain Lanthier cnam@globetrotter.net on
> Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:46:19
> to the Canadian Army Mailing List.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> A majority of military member have asked themselves why they have to pay
for mess dues. Most of you feel that the perception of mess dues is illegal
as well as the way some superior take to make pressure on you to have you
signature for your mess dues. A lot of redresses have been submitted without
success across Canada, and most of them did not go further than Base
Commanding Officer. If you have submitted a redress in the past to stop your
mess dues, i‘m looking for redresses and the answers received for reference,
compilation and investigation to cnam@globetrotter.net for more information.
Feel free to pass this information.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>
> For more information, please see The Canadian Army Home Page at:
>
>  http://army.cipherlogic.on.ca 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:37:17 -0400*
You can claim union dues, legally. Not so with mess dues.
I have to agree with Alain, if I understand his stance...I don‘t feel that
we should have to pay mess dues. After all, I haven‘t heard one good reason
why we should. Anyone out there care to offer a good valid reason?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> I never saw anything wrong with paying mess dues. Made a lot more sense
than
> when I hit civvie street, and was forced to pay union dues.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alain Lanthier" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:46 AM
> Subject: Messes dues
>
>
> > The following comments were submitted by
> > Alain Lanthier cnam@globetrotter.net on
> > Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:46:19
> > to the Canadian Army Mailing List.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> > A majority of military member have asked themselves why they have to pay
> for mess dues. Most of you feel that the perception of mess dues is
illegal
> as well as the way some superior take to make pressure on you to have you
> signature for your mess dues. A lot of redresses have been submitted
without
> success across Canada, and most of them did not go further than Base
> Commanding Officer. If you have submitted a redress in the past to stop
your
> mess dues, i‘m looking for redresses and the answers received for
reference,
> compilation and investigation to cnam@globetrotter.net for more
information.
> Feel free to pass this information.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> > For more information, please see The Canadian Army Home Page at:
> >
> >  http://army.cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:07:16 -0700*
Well, when I became a Snr NCO, I earned my way in to that mess. I didn‘t
mind paying into that. I don‘t know how many jobs all of you have held,
besides the military, but there are tons of associations, professional
registries, certifications, etc., that you must pay into, like it or not.
Some you can claim, some you can‘t. If you‘re going to scrutinize
everything, there are things you get in the military, free or cheap, that
you don‘t get in a civilian job. I guess its opinions and preferences, just
like everything else. Some things bother people more than others.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clark" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> You can claim union dues, legally. Not so with mess dues.
>
> I have to agree with Alain, if I understand his stance...I don‘t feel that
> we should have to pay mess dues. After all, I haven‘t heard one good
reason
> why we should. Anyone out there care to offer a good valid reason?
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Messes dues
>
>
> > I never saw anything wrong with paying mess dues. Made a lot more sense
> than
> > when I hit civvie street, and was forced to pay union dues.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alain Lanthier" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:46 AM
> > Subject: Messes dues
> >
> >
> > > The following comments were submitted by
> > > Alain Lanthier cnam@globetrotter.net on
> > > Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:46:19
> > > to the Canadian Army Mailing List.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >
> > > A majority of military member have asked themselves why they have to
pay
> > for mess dues. Most of you feel that the perception of mess dues is
> illegal
> > as well as the way some superior take to make pressure on you to have
you
> > signature for your mess dues. A lot of redresses have been submitted
> without
> > success across Canada, and most of them did not go further than Base
> > Commanding Officer. If you have submitted a redress in the past to stop
> your
> > mess dues, i‘m looking for redresses and the answers received for
> reference,
> > compilation and investigation to cnam@globetrotter.net for more
> information.
> > Feel free to pass this information.
> > >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >
> > > For more information, please see The Canadian Army Home Page at:
> > >
> > >  http://army.cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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> >
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:16:17 -0600*
Alain from Ian Edwards:
If you are a member of some large amorphous "composite" mess then I can
understand your point of view. If you are a Sr NCO or Officer in
particular, part of a unit mess of your peers, Regular or Reserve, then
it would seem you JUST DON‘T GET IT and perhaps should reconsider why
you are in the unit you are in at all. I could expand why unit messes
can and should be an important vehicle to inculcate that delicate sense
of esprit de corps but if you don‘t understand that already then I would
suggest that there is more wrong in your unit or with you than
compulsory mess dues. Surely you are not in the CF just for the money?
Alain Lanthier wrote:
> 
> The following comments were submitted by
> Alain Lanthier cnam@globetrotter.net on
> Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:46:19
> to the Canadian Army Mailing List.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> A majority of military member have asked themselves why they have to pay for mess dues. Most of you feel that the perception of mess dues is illegal as well as the way some superior take to make pressure on you to have you signature for your mess dues. A lot of redresses have been submitted without success across Canada, and most of them did not go further than Base Commanding Officer. If you have submitted a redress in the past to stop your mess dues, i‘m looking for redresses and the answers received for reference, compilation and investigation to cnam@globetrotter.net for more information.  Feel free to pass this information.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> For more information, please see The Canadian Army Home Page at:
> 
>  http://army.cipherlogic.on.ca 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:32:16 -0700*
Mr Edwards put it much better than I did. I was the third generation to make
Snr NCO in my Regiment. I wanted to belong to the Sergeants Mess. It was an
honour.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To:  
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> Alain from Ian Edwards:
>
> If you are a member of some large amorphous "composite" mess then I can
> understand your point of view. If you are a Sr NCO or Officer in
> particular, part of a unit mess of your peers, Regular or Reserve, then
> it would seem you JUST DON‘T GET IT and perhaps should reconsider why
> you are in the unit you are in at all. I could expand why unit messes
> can and should be an important vehicle to inculcate that delicate sense
> of esprit de corps but if you don‘t understand that already then I would
> suggest that there is more wrong in your unit or with you than
> compulsory mess dues. Surely you are not in the CF just for the money?
>
> Alain Lanthier wrote:
> >
> > The following comments were submitted by
> > Alain Lanthier cnam@globetrotter.net on
> > Sunday, July 16, 2000 at 13:46:19
> > to the Canadian Army Mailing List.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > A majority of military member have asked themselves why they have to pay
for mess dues. Most of you feel that the perception of mess dues is illegal
as well as the way some superior take to make pressure on you to have you
signature for your mess dues. A lot of redresses have been submitted without
success across Canada, and most of them did not go further than Base
Commanding Officer. If you have submitted a redress in the past to stop your
mess dues, i‘m looking for redresses and the answers received for reference,
compilation and investigation to cnam@globetrotter.net for more information.
Feel free to pass this information.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >
> > For more information, please see The Canadian Army Home Page at:
> >
> >  http://army.cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *ninercharlie@home.com* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:11:42  0000*
If you have difficulty understanding the concept/value of messes in the
CF then take your "civilian in a uniform", "I‘m just a tech attitude"
your BPSC tomorrow morning and initiate your release paper work.
I‘ve found many who complain paying compulsory mess dues are the same
whiners who attempt to claim haircuts and shoe polish as legitimate
business related expenses! 
Interestingly enough as a group they seldom frequent their messes and
their personal dress standards indicate it‘s been some time since they
have seen either the inside of a barber shop or for that matter the
inside of a KIWI can!
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:24:23 -0700*
9-C .... right on
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> If you have difficulty understanding the concept/value of messes in the
> CF then take your "civilian in a uniform", "I‘m just a tech attitude"
> your BPSC tomorrow morning and initiate your release paper work.
> I‘ve found many who complain paying compulsory mess dues are the same
> whiners who attempt to claim haircuts and shoe polish as legitimate
> business related expenses! 
> Interestingly enough as a group they seldom frequent their messes and
> their personal dress standards indicate it‘s been some time since they
> have seen either the inside of a barber shop or for that matter the
> inside of a KIWI can!
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:00:36 -0400*
Complaining about something, and questioning it‘s purpose or validity are
far from the same thing, sir.
"Civilian in a uniform"?? You mean like a bus driver? "I‘m just a tech"??
Sorry, we are all soldiers first.
What the heck does either statement have to do with mandatory mess dues?
I have friends that own their own house, have never had children, and never
plan to. Why do they pay education taxes? Because someone said so. The same
reason we pay mess dues, because someone said so. It‘s an arcaic way of
thinking.
If you consider that a complaint, then so be it. As I said above, a
complaint and a question are not the same thing.
So, back to the question. Why are we forced to pay mess dues? And please, if
you can‘t answer the question, keep your rants to yourself, and save the
bandwidth for someone else.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> If you have difficulty understanding the concept/value of messes in the
> CF then take your "civilian in a uniform", "I‘m just a tech attitude"
> your BPSC tomorrow morning and initiate your release paper work.
> I‘ve found many who complain paying compulsory mess dues are the same
> whiners who attempt to claim haircuts and shoe polish as legitimate
> business related expenses!
> Interestingly enough as a group they seldom frequent their messes and
> their personal dress standards indicate it‘s been some time since they
> have seen either the inside of a barber shop or for that matter the
> inside of a KIWI can!
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:15:15 -0700*
>So, back to the question. Why are we forced to pay mess dues?
I thought the compulsion is that each soldier is required to be a member of a
mess.  Whether the mess charges dues is up to the membership at large.  I
suppose a mess with healthy bar sales wouldn‘t need to charge dues at all.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:22:56 -0700*
In the long ago days of pride in the service, and your unit, your mess was
your imediate family.  they were the people who you socialized with when on
deployment.  they were the ones who helped you out if you needed it.
In these modern military times, when so many members feel it is just a job,
they will question why we have a mess.  So many members are only there to
collect a pay check, have guaranteed promotion if you follow the rules, and
never have to worry about your future.  It  politically incorrect to, drink
with your peers, to advocate military matters, or to be proud of your
service.
I agree that if you can‘t understand the need for mess dues, then maybe you
should look for other employment.  They are a fact of Military life, just
like following orders.  If you don‘t like the conditions of service, go out
and find a civvy job.
No more perks of Mil. service, just the dog eat dog world of not knowing if
you are working tomorrow.  Whatever your mess dues are, they are not as much
as buying your own wardrobe for work.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:48:47 -0600*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clark" 
> So, back to the question. Why are we forced to pay mess dues? And please,
if
> you can‘t answer the question, keep your rants to yourself, and save the
> bandwidth for someone else.
The mess and associated dues are part of military life. They are not
uniquely Canadian. Armies around the world have messes/clubs that soldiers
are required to join/support financially. They provide a place where we can
gather amongst our own for mutual support and relaxation.
As soldiers we belong to a much larger society but there are things we
do/endure that those who are not soldiers do not understand. We need a place
where we can be understood. In a way it‘s a simple but often effective
relief for PTSD.
Officers/Warrant Officers/Senior NCO‘s also need there own space so that the
troops can get away from them. It lets everybody relax a bit. There is also
the fact that messes are repositories of the history and tradition of a
unit, providing contact with those who have gone before. Where else for an
example can a newly commissioned 2LT. sit and hear a senior General expound
the lessons of years of soldiering informally without much of the trappings
of office and ask questions.
The mess is our professional association. Like many careers, you must belong
to the professional association in order to be employed. It‘s the way it is
but you certainly don‘t have to pay mess dues....just find another career
outside the army.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Pullman" <jpullman@bserv.com>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:59:38 -0700*
This one struck a personal note with me. Ref the education tax? I‘ve always
noticed that some people cry out that since they don‘t have kids, why should
they pay an education tax? But I‘ve also noticed that their already educated
and don‘t seem to want to pay back what others have paid to get them
educated. But fine. Say that they do. Then I would like them after a 12 year
break, to agree that their not allowed to use anything in our society that
requires a Grade 12 education as a minumum. Ludicrous, I agree. But I
honestly don‘t get their point, other then its a selfish self centered
attitude.
But paying mess dues is part of the game. If you don‘t want to play, then
don‘t enter the game. But I personally have a problem with people that
knowingly enter the game, enjoy the priviledges of playing, and then bitch
about certain rules. Sorry, troops,I got no sympathy for them. In my
experience, if they weren‘t complaining about mess dues, they‘d be whining
about something else.
John
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *ninercharlie@home.com* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:56:38  0000*
Many list members were much more eloquent in their responses than I
however, I guessing you still wont get it...
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:42:49 -0600*
Our complainer OK, merely questioning re mess dues should
consider other parallels. At most universities professors must
pay dues into their faculty clubs. Well, there goes the world of
academia for our retiring soldier!!
There was a time when not only was payment of mess dues compulsory but
attendance at functions was compulsory, and still should be. Those
missing without satisfactory reasons were/should be given extra Orderly
Officer/Orderly Sergeant duties as a minimum. Or did that mild "signal"
of disapproval disappear too?
And as a matter of course, much of a person‘s mess sub‘s usually go to
pay for mess dinners and the like, things for which the recipient
receives a direct benefit unless he/she prefers to live on IMPs
24/7/52.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:26:10 -0600*
I‘m not altogether against questioning why we still have to pay mess
dues or belong to a mess.  I pay $300/year in mess dues and fortunately
or unfortunately, I‘m at the stage in my life that I prefer going home
to my family on Friday afternoon, instead of going to the mess, hence I
get very little for that money.
Let‘s call the mess what it is...it‘s a drinking club where you can get
together and discuss your personal and professional life.  However, it‘s
not a professional club and I don‘t know how much it fosters
professional development.  Most messes are subsidized by taxpayers
dollars and in effect take money away from training among other
things.  Messes foster drinking simply by their very nature a drinking
club.  I find combined messes do not have as great an attraction as
single unit messes.  Alot of mess dinners and social get togethers are
now held off the base/away from the mess as it is simply too expensive
NPF wages for servers, dishwashers, cooks to hold at the mess.    
Everyone talks of the mess fostering esprit de corps, morale, unit
cohesion, etc, etc.  I‘m not sure how much that is true.  Some people
and their families use the mess alot, but, I think the majority, like
me, are minimal users of the mess.
I‘ve spent alot of money in messes and passed out on many a floor,
however, if it was gone, I can‘t say I would miss it.  Maybe thats
simply because I‘ve moved to a different stage in my life.  I do know
that I am subsidizing someone else‘s drinking habits and as the military
is trying to get away from fostering a alcohol environment I think it is
only logical to move away from designated drinking spots.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Tue, 18 Jul 2000 06:45:40 -0700*
I guess I wouldn‘t totally agree with gunner, either. I knew lots of
non-drinkers who attended the mess regularly. Also, if I wanted to drink, or
socialize without drinking, I enjoyed the mess, and its very limited
attendance of undesirables typically found in most drinking establishments.
I found the mess to be a more casual effective spot to conduct business,
and mess activities besides drinking, I may add did serve to foster
morale, both mine personally, and that of the unit. Maybe it just depends on
what type of mess you belonged to. I think it strikes a nerve with many,
because it is simply one more deep rooted tradition that is being stripped
away from Army, navy, and Air Force. Come to think of it, I always hated
shining my boots. It serves no practical purpose, and that time could be
much better spent reading text books, or going to classes on investment
strategies. And that drill stuff - what‘s up with that?? Parades, pomp and
circumstance ... have no application on the battlefield, where modern
professional soldiers roam. Anyway, I‘m enjoying the debate guys, and glad
to see its being kept civil. I was on an arty list, and people fought all
the time, and it fell by the wayside.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gunner" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Mess dues
> I‘m not altogether against questioning why we still have to pay mess
> dues or belong to a mess.  I pay $300/year in mess dues and fortunately
> or unfortunately, I‘m at the stage in my life that I prefer going home
> to my family on Friday afternoon, instead of going to the mess, hence I
> get very little for that money.
>
> Let‘s call the mess what it is...it‘s a drinking club where you can get
> together and discuss your personal and professional life.  However, it‘s
> not a professional club and I don‘t know how much it fosters
> professional development.  Most messes are subsidized by taxpayers
> dollars and in effect take money away from training among other
> things.  Messes foster drinking simply by their very nature a drinking
> club.  I find combined messes do not have as great an attraction as
> single unit messes.  Alot of mess dinners and social get togethers are
> now held off the base/away from the mess as it is simply too expensive
> NPF wages for servers, dishwashers, cooks to hold at the mess.
>
> Everyone talks of the mess fostering esprit de corps, morale, unit
> cohesion, etc, etc.  I‘m not sure how much that is true.  Some people
> and their families use the mess alot, but, I think the majority, like
> me, are minimal users of the mess.
>
> I‘ve spent alot of money in messes and passed out on many a floor,
> however, if it was gone, I can‘t say I would miss it.  Maybe thats
> simply because I‘ve moved to a different stage in my life.  I do know
> that I am subsidizing someone else‘s drinking habits and as the military
> is trying to get away from fostering a alcohol environment I think it is
> only logical to move away from designated drinking spots.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:56:49 -0400*
Dave,
I appreciate your taking the time to explain a bit. Thank-you. Unlike most
who just up and say "if you don‘t like it, then piss off"
I get this from your message "mess dues are a sort of tradition, one that
may be on it‘s way out with the "new army" and the like.
It‘s difficult to understand the need for most things if no-one is willing
to explain them to you. I grew up with my father telling me "Because I said
so!" Unfortunately, I think that statement is as full of **** as is my
septic tank. If there is no "why", then anything deserves to be questioned.
I get the bit about tradition, too bad most of our traditions are on their
way out, eh?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: dave 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> In the long ago days of pride in the service, and your unit, your mess was
> your imediate family.  they were the people who you socialized with when
on
> deployment.  they were the ones who helped you out if you needed it.
> In these modern military times, when so many members feel it is just a
job,
> they will question why we have a mess.  So many members are only there to
> collect a pay check, have guaranteed promotion if you follow the rules,
and
> never have to worry about your future.  It  politically incorrect to,
drink
> with your peers, to advocate military matters, or to be proud of your
> service.
> I agree that if you can‘t understand the need for mess dues, then maybe
you
> should look for other employment.  They are a fact of Military life, just
> like following orders.  If you don‘t like the conditions of service, go
out
> and find a civvy job.
> No more perks of Mil. service, just the dog eat dog world of not knowing
if
> you are working tomorrow.  Whatever your mess dues are, they are not as
much
> as buying your own wardrobe for work.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:57:44 -0400*
Thanks Bruce,
Very eloquent.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Williams 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Clark" 
> > So, back to the question. Why are we forced to pay mess dues? And
please,
> if
> > you can‘t answer the question, keep your rants to yourself, and save the
> > bandwidth for someone else.
>
>
> The mess and associated dues are part of military life. They are not
> uniquely Canadian. Armies around the world have messes/clubs that soldiers
> are required to join/support financially. They provide a place where we
can
> gather amongst our own for mutual support and relaxation.
>
> As soldiers we belong to a much larger society but there are things we
> do/endure that those who are not soldiers do not understand. We need a
place
> where we can be understood. In a way it‘s a simple but often effective
> relief for PTSD.
>
> Officers/Warrant Officers/Senior NCO‘s also need there own space so that
the
> troops can get away from them. It lets everybody relax a bit. There is
also
> the fact that messes are repositories of the history and tradition of a
> unit, providing contact with those who have gone before. Where else for an
> example can a newly commissioned 2LT. sit and hear a senior General
expound
> the lessons of years of soldiering informally without much of the
trappings
> of office and ask questions.
>
> The mess is our professional association. Like many careers, you must
belong
> to the professional association in order to be employed. It‘s the way it
is
> but you certainly don‘t have to pay mess dues....just find another career
> outside the army.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:00:40 -0400*
Difficult to "get something" that was never given.
Thanks for your input, oh wise one.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Messes dues
> Many list members were much more eloquent in their responses than I
> however, I guessing you still wont get it...
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:10:03 -0400*
Hi Gunner,
For the amount I pay, and it‘s not near your $300 a year, it doesn‘t matter
a whole lot in my day to day life. What I do question, and not defiantly, as
some would have some believe on this list, is being forced to pay into
something that you know very little about.
I, like you, use the mess very little. I did, but don‘t any longer.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gunner 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: Mess dues
> I‘m not altogether against questioning why we still have to pay mess
> dues or belong to a mess.  I pay $300/year in mess dues and fortunately
> or unfortunately, I‘m at the stage in my life that I prefer going home
> to my family on Friday afternoon, instead of going to the mess, hence I
> get very little for that money.
>
> Let‘s call the mess what it is...it‘s a drinking club where you can get
> together and discuss your personal and professional life.  However, it‘s
> not a professional club and I don‘t know how much it fosters
> professional development.  Most messes are subsidized by taxpayers
> dollars and in effect take money away from training among other
> things.  Messes foster drinking simply by their very nature a drinking
> club.  I find combined messes do not have as great an attraction as
> single unit messes.  Alot of mess dinners and social get togethers are
> now held off the base/away from the mess as it is simply too expensive
> NPF wages for servers, dishwashers, cooks to hold at the mess.
>
> Everyone talks of the mess fostering esprit de corps, morale, unit
> cohesion, etc, etc.  I‘m not sure how much that is true.  Some people
> and their families use the mess alot, but, I think the majority, like
> me, are minimal users of the mess.
>
> I‘ve spent alot of money in messes and passed out on many a floor,
> however, if it was gone, I can‘t say I would miss it.  Maybe thats
> simply because I‘ve moved to a different stage in my life.  I do know
> that I am subsidizing someone else‘s drinking habits and as the military
> is trying to get away from fostering a alcohol environment I think it is
> only logical to move away from designated drinking spots.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:03:55 -0700*
Steve:
you are right, many of the traditions of all the services are in danger of
disappearing.  When traditions started being changed to suit PC guide lines,
that was a warning we should have heeded. When the government starts to
phase out traditions, that were established with blood and sweat, it really
bothers me.  they had no part in their inception, but feel they can
legislate, or promulgate them away.
Regimental identity
Regimental traditions
Regimental badges
Regimental pride
"Regimental messes"
Totake any of these away is just another attempt to make our soldiersand
sailors and airmen into just an extension of the civil service.
As for the tradition of drinking in the mess, I believe the government has
traditionally used drinking to manipulate the troops.  How else will you get
a bunch on 17-21 year old "boys" to go over the top to their certain death,
or to wade through the waist deep water of the scheldt for 2 weeks at a
time. Not to mention face the guns of a heavier ship on the cold Atlantic
ocean.  they even used to issue the stuff in great quantities.  someone said
that it was used after to fight off PTSD, we‘ll maybe they are right.
When I was in camp, the mess put on the steak nights, it was the place to
gather to shoot the breeze.  I had a choice to drink, and sometimes I did.
It also had comfy chairs to rest my rear end after a day of training.
On foreign voyages with the Navy, the mess rented the vans for us, put on
ball games, and had big Bar-b-Qs on a regular basis.  crib tournaments, kite
flying contests, all manner of entertainment, not just drinking.  The
drinkers subsidized all this, with their buying of drinks.
When you are a member of a ships company, you don‘t pay mess dues, there is
no separate building, and PMC is a secondary duty.
On a base, you do have a building, and full time paid staff, and
infrastructure to pay for.  I think the dues go to support that as well as
providing entertainment for the troops.
thank you for listenning
Chimo
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Rhett <lawson@cclacbrome.qc.ca>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:26:21 -0400*
Hello Dave
It is nice of you to clarify the thoughts of many, including mine on this
subject......  To belong to a Regiment is to belong to a Mess, and those
activities and comforts found there in the form of your comrades is paramount in
the success and pride of that unit.
You said it well, your father I‘m sure is proud of you......
Rhett Lawson
dave wrote:
> Steve:
> you are right, many of the traditions of all the services are in danger of
> disappearing.  When traditions started being changed to suit PC guide lines,
> that was a warning we should have heeded. When the government starts to
> phase out traditions, that were established with blood and sweat, it really
> bothers me.  they had no part in their inception, but feel they can
> legislate, or promulgate them away.
> Regimental identity
> Regimental traditions
> Regimental badges
> Regimental pride
> "Regimental messes"
> Totake any of these away is just another attempt to make our soldiersand
> sailors and airmen into just an extension of the civil service.
> As for the tradition of drinking in the mess, I believe the government has
> traditionally used drinking to manipulate the troops.  How else will you get
> a bunch on 17-21 year old "boys" to go over the top to their certain death,
> or to wade through the waist deep water of the scheldt for 2 weeks at a
> time. Not to mention face the guns of a heavier ship on the cold Atlantic
> ocean.  they even used to issue the stuff in great quantities.  someone said
> that it was used after to fight off PTSD, we‘ll maybe they are right.
>
> When I was in camp, the mess put on the steak nights, it was the place to
> gather to shoot the breeze.  I had a choice to drink, and sometimes I did.
> It also had comfy chairs to rest my rear end after a day of training.
> On foreign voyages with the Navy, the mess rented the vans for us, put on
> ball games, and had big Bar-b-Qs on a regular basis.  crib tournaments, kite
> flying contests, all manner of entertainment, not just drinking.  The
> drinkers subsidized all this, with their buying of drinks.
> When you are a member of a ships company, you don‘t pay mess dues, there is
> no separate building, and PMC is a secondary duty.
> On a base, you do have a building, and full time paid staff, and
> infrastructure to pay for.  I think the dues go to support that as well as
> providing entertainment for the troops.
> thank you for listenning
> Chimo
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:44:44 -0700*
I guess I have to wear the ‘old army‘ hat as there was little that I
questioned as a young soldier. I was thirsty for knowlege and I found
something new at every corner. We really didn‘t ask ‘why‘ very often as it
seemed as though everything was explained. Short hair was a hygene issue and
boot polishing was a leather conditioner and on and on. I credit the old
soldiers and instructors with taking the time to really ‘teach‘ me things
instead of the broadbrush way of doing things in today‘s army.
I really wonder why anyone would complain about mess dues or haircuts in a
forum where there would be so many different answers from everyone from
sceptics to loyalists.
Perhaps an interview with your CSM or the RSM would clear up the point. A
young officer with the same concern could approach the unit 2i/c for a
better understanding of the reasons one is ‘forced‘ to pay mess dues.
For my own part I spent many years in the Sgt‘s mess attending various
functions with out drinking alcoholic beverages and never once felt obliged
to do so. On the other hand I did swill lots of coffee and eat lots of toast
at the coffee breaks, I watched movies in the field and stared for hours at
the Stanley Cup playoffs in Wainwright in a tent called the Sgt‘s Mess. My
reasons for going or not going to the mess are different than others and I
accepted that. Every unit that I served  had an active Mess and I took part
in it with the same dedication as I took in all other aspects of soldiering.
But that is me.
My suggestion to anyone who doesn‘t want to be labeled as a ‘malcontent‘ for
voicing their displeasure at something in the Army, is to research it first
then offer an alternative  I know a
sqeaky wheel gets the grease but often it gets replaced at 2nd line because
it is more effective.
arte et marte
andy sends:
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:46:56 -0600*
I think that the Royal Navy sea time and by association, the RCN was
typlified as: rum, sodomy and the lash."   :-
Note that I said "was" and we can bet that at least two of the three
"traditions" have passed into history you pick which two. Even though
this is an army net I expect someone to rush to the unnecessary defence
of the senior service. Away, away with fife  drum, here we come, full
of rum ... 
dave wrote:snip, snip
> 
>  Not to mention face the guns of a heavier ship on the cold Atlantic
> ocean.  they even used to issue the stuff in great quantities.  someone said
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