# Frequency, duration & diet



## ObserverUK (10 Oct 2010)

I am not in the military (although I do work with the defence sector) but I like to work out - endurance (cardio & resistance) training 6 days a week for 1.2 hours a day.  I have been communicating with some fitness forums and they have me utterly confused so I was wondering if this site can help (given you all do 'functional training' rather than 'vanity training').

- is it okay to train 6 days a week doing cardio with resistance (lower, upper, core work)?
- can I take carbs in the form of vegetables (i.e. potatoes etc) rather than grains providing I eat about 30% carb?

I have been told:

- to stop training 6 days a week
- that cardio combined with resistance is a waste of time
- and I will make myself ill if I keep doing this style of training (even though I have been doing it for over 3 years)

I'm frustrated because I like endurance training and I have, in part, built my programme based on military style training (some based on information from this site).  So, are they right?


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## Chilme (10 Oct 2010)

I recognize where this information from me is coming from, but you must question how reliable those on a forum are.  Many who train consider themselves experts in training.  Listen to your body.  If training makes you sick or causes injury, then you may need t re-evaluate.  There is no formula for all.  Some can handle training 5 days per week, some 2, some 7 even.  It depends on their routine, genetics, and at what fitness level they are at. 

By the Way, one of the biggest trends in fitness right now is Crossfit.  It is largely based on a combo of cardio and resistance training.  Good luck trying to convince the 100,000's of people who train with crossfit.


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## ObserverUK (10 Oct 2010)

Thank you Chilme.

I have looked into Crossfit and incorporated some of the techniques into my exercise programme.

The reason I was asking forums is because I have a fully equiped home gym - upside is I can fit my training in easily but the downside is I have to learn through forums or people I meet along the way.  Over the years I have spoken to a few military trainers and found them very sensible.

I was NOT unhappy with my training programme but I had cut down my carbs and lost weight rapidly and wondered why but my enquiries led to some criticism of my exercise programme and I wanted to canvas other opinions from a source I have more faith in.

I have read some of the stickies but I can't find an answer to my carbs question which was my original problem.

Can anyone advise me?


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## Ascendant (10 Oct 2010)

What, exactly, does your program look like?

Also, eating more vegetables is never going to be bad for you.


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## Armymedic (10 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> I have been told:
> 
> - to stop training 6 days a week
> - that cardio combined with resistance is a waste of time
> ...



1. There is 7 days in a week, you can train on every one of them. Intensity and variety is the key. You should not train hard every workout 7 days a week.
2.  Bull. Resistance done certain ways is cardio. And cardio has some sort of resistance to it i.e. swimming.
3.  Double Bull, and you know it is as you have been doing it for 3 years. As I said above, you can train every day. Man evolved being able to do strenuous activity every day as long as the food/fat was avail to keep up the energy levels. 

There are more fitness/exercise/workout sites on the internet than stars in the sky (ok, almost as many), not everyone who posts on them have a clue.


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## ObserverUK (11 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> What, exactly, does your program look like?
> 
> Also, eating more vegetables is never going to be bad for you.



I started out running for an hour 6 days a week but (after a year) it wrecked my lower back so I switched to a spinner bike which I stand on for an hour and ride to high resistance and speed (the movement is similar to running).

I do about 650 core moves ranging from push-ups, sit ups, side crunches & various body lift moves.

I also do about 150 - 200 upper body moves using 2 x 8kg dumbells - I have a long term wrist injury so I am wary of using barbells.

I do try to mix the programme up a little but I am a creature of habit and I don't mix it up enough.

My gym also has punching bags, bench & pull up bar (which I can't do properly - the movement aggravates the wrist problem).

And I was doing fine with my programme and have been increasing resistance over time.  But I stupidly decided to reduce carbs (something I read on various sites) and the effect was rapid weight loss (but I have lean muscle and low fat levels anyway & don't have the weight to lose) plus I did get very tired (when usually I was fine).

I realise I should not have cut carbs and I have added them back in by way of starchy vegetables (not a big fan of grains).

I usually just read the fitness forums rather than post but asked for some help this time and it left me confused so I was hoping for some more balanced advice because I don't trust the 'vanity trainers'.


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## ObserverUK (11 Oct 2010)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> 1. There is 7 days in a week, you can train on every one of them. Intensity and variety is the key. You should not train hard every workout 7 days a week.
> 2.  Bull. Resistance done certain ways is cardio. And cardio has some sort of resistance to it i.e. swimming.
> 3.  Double Bull, and you know it is as you have been doing it for 3 years. As I said above, you can train every day. Man evolved being able to do strenuous activity every day as long as the food/fat was avail to keep up the energy levels.
> 
> There are more fitness/exercise/workout sites on the internet than stars in the sky (ok, almost as many), not everyone who posts on them have a clue.



Well, that is exactly the assumption I made - man was made to move daily plus I know the military train daily.  I have a very demanding day job so I can only give this about 1.5 hours per day but that seemed reasonable to me.  And I really do enjoy the sweat and doing something physically demanding rather than intellectually demanding.

But I am not mixing up my programme enough so I think I went into a period (3 months) where I was training hard 6 - 9 days straight and not supporting it with the right amount of carb and I tired myself out.  I have since taken a week off and eaten more and I am absolutely fine again (and I stopped losing weight).

I am now returning to my programme but I have lost confidence that what I am doing is fine.  And you are right, maybe I do need to shift the intensity on a daily basis.

Thank you for your advice.


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## Ascendant (11 Oct 2010)

If you're only doing BW or very low weight stuff, then yeah, you can get away with super high frequency because it's not that taxing on your body.

Heavy weight training five or six days a week wouldn't be advisable.


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## ObserverUK (11 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> If you're only doing BW or very low weight stuff, then yeah, you can get away with super high frequency because it's not that taxing on your body.
> 
> Heavy weight training five or six days a week wouldn't be advisable.



That's what I have always assumed.  I am female and not interested in 'bulking' but want endurance and some strength.  The forum trainer was a body builder and kept asking me what I didn't like about my body which was a) none of his business and b) not relevant to the question I asked and c) not what motivates me to train.

Thank you for your advice.


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## Jebus (23 Oct 2010)

You want to build strength? Doing high volume exercises isn't going to cut it. You'll want to do heavy weight, low volume, Barbell training. Look up Starting Strength, but with your wrist problems you might want to actually talk to a doctor. Certain exercises can help with that though. 

Don't worry about getting bulky, you won't, women do not produce enough testosterone to get, "Big."Especially when doing low volume work, people who do want to get big, will do exercises similar to what your doing, with high volume. Also try your best to limit your workouts to NO MORE THAN 1 HOUR. Anything more than that and cortisol is produced. 

Potatoes are not vegetables!! Also avoid grains, which you already do, good job! Eat high protein, high fat and low-moderate carbs. You'll want to get most of your carbs from vegetables and fruits. But if you want to get stronger, faster and easier, eating more of anything and everything will help.

A good program for strength and endurance would be, resistance training for 3 days a week, full body exercises and some endurance or maybe even sprints 1-2 times a week. It really depends on your goals, It might be easier to just focus on strength alone for a couple weeks or months, then focus more on endurance for a couple weeks or w/e.


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## ObserverUK (23 Oct 2010)

Thanks for your advice.

I do have a problem with heavy weights due to my wrist.  I broke it when I was 12 and had surgery to re-break it which left me with significant nerve damage which led me to favour it resulting in weaker tendons and shoulder problems.  It's okay for normal daily activities but becomes a real issue with weights - right now an 8kg dumbell causes pain and, at the wrong angle, I can drop it.  And, yes a doctor has checked it.  And yes, I can build strength in the wrist but I have to build strength slowly.

I'd like to try cross fit but I need to wait until Christmas when I have sufficient recovery time.  Right now my business is very busy so I am down to 4 - 5 days a week on my current programme (which is annoying) but hope to redesign the programme when I get a break.


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## Ascendant (23 Oct 2010)

Jebus said:
			
		

> You want to build strength? Doing high volume exercises isn't going to cut it. You'll want to do heavy weight, low volume, Barbell training. Look up Starting Strength, but with your wrist problems you might want to actually talk to a doctor. Certain exercises can help with that though.
> 
> Don't worry about getting bulky, you won't, women do not produce enough testosterone to get, "Big."Especially when doing low volume work, people who do want to get big, will do exercises similar to what your doing, with high volume. Also try your best to limit your workouts to NO MORE THAN 1 HOUR. Anything more than that and cortisol is produced.
> 
> ...



Nice post, but there's no reason to limit workouts to one hour. That's a myth.

There's no need to completely avoid grains.


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## bdave (27 Oct 2010)

If you wish to inform yourself, t-nation.com has some very good articles.
Take everything with a grain of salt.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

Thanks bdave.

I just looked up that site and hurt myself laughing.  OMG, are those guys real?

That is all well out my league in so many ways...


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## bdave (27 Oct 2010)

What do you mean by are those guys real?


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> Thanks bdave.
> 
> I just looked up that site and hurt myself laughing.  OMG, are those guys real?
> 
> That is all well out my league in so many ways...



T-Nation used to be a legit website.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

bdave said:
			
		

> What do you mean by are those guys real?



No offence but they are so developed they don't look like anyone I have ever met!  It's impressive & no doubt a lot of hard work!

And, Kratos, it probably still is a legit site but it is nothing like anything I have ever seen before.


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> No offence but they are so developed they don't look like anyone I have ever met!  It's impressive & no doubt a lot of hard work!
> 
> And, Kratos, it probably still is a legit site but it is nothing like anything I have ever seen before.



Yeah, if you can pick out the good parts between all the bullshit and supplement marketing.


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## bdave (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> No offence but they are so developed they don't look like anyone I have ever met!  It's impressive & no doubt a lot of hard work!
> 
> And, Kratos, it probably still is a legit site but it is nothing like anything I have ever seen before.



It's still -somewhat- legit.
The forums are good but not the best. Best stay away from those really. Comments are interesting to read, for the most part. The articles are good, for the most part.
Just take it all with a grain of salt and take a little bit of info from here and there. If I were you I'd really focus on the articles. Mind you, it has males in mind and is body builder-power lifter _goal oriented_.
So it might not help you concerning endurance.

If you want some good strengthening exercises, look into:

Front squats (*** to grass - all the way down - less stressful on the knees) (focus is on quads)
Back squats (same as above)
Dead lifts (focus on posterior chain - glutes, erectors/lower back and hamstrings)
Power Cleans (explosive movement - same as above)
Bench
Over head press
Pull ups
Chin ups
Dips
Lunges
Natural Glute Ham raises (Body weight exercise - destroys your hamstrings, lowerback and glutes)
Farmer's walk (grip)
Turkish Get Up 
Curls
Barbell Hip Thrust (looks perverted but is an excellent glute exercise)
Bent Over Rows 
Leg Raises

Look into those lifts. I consider them the most "no bullshit" exercises there are. As "functional" for strength, as you can get.
You can throw in some rope climbing, sandbag carry stuff, but it requires alot of material. What I listed can all be done in a commercial gym.
If I were you, I would construct my plan to contain those lifts. Stay away from bosu ball balance upside curls or whatever crazy things people do now a days. You can work in some cardio stuff too. 

Front squats, Back squats and deadlifts are taxing, so I would separate them by a few days and do them first. Always do the hardest lifts first. Those 3 lifts, and the power clean, are very technique dependent. I'd advise you to get "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe. 
As for strength, you want a weight you can only lift 5-8 times.
Then, next time, add 5 pounds and aim for the same number of reps.
Adding weight is dependent on how much weight you are lifting to begin with. If you bench 10 pounds, adding 5 pounds is a 50 percent increase. You will not make that lift. If you bench 315 pounds, then 5 pounds is doable. If you can not add any weight because it's too much - even 5 pounds, then do more reps. Once you can do 2 or 3 more reps, you should be able to handle those 5 pounds.
When doing weight training, you should always warm up before hand and do a warm up of the exercise itself.

Example of a possible exercise plan (concerning weight lifting only):
Monday:
Back Squat/Front squat -5 reps for 3 sets
Overhead press -8 reps 3 sets
Pull ups -8 reps for 3 sets (use a weight belt)
Leg Raises -max reps for 2 sets

Tuesday: Off or cardio/endurance

Wednesday:   Deadlift -5 reps for 3 sets     
                       Dips -8reps for 3 sets (use a weight belt)
                       Bent over Rows -5 reps for 4 sets

Thursday: Off or cardio/endurance

Friday:   Back Squat/Front squat -5 reps for 3 sets
              Bench -6reps for 3 sets
              Farmer's Walk - At least 20 seconds with whatever weight - 3 sets
              Natural Glute Ham Raise - 10 reps for 3 sets

Saturday:   Lunges or Barbell Hip Thrust -5 reps for 4 sets
                  Power Clean - 3-5 reps for 3 sets
                  Turkish Get Up -1 rep per side, for 3 sets
                  Curls - 8reps for 3 sets

Sunday: Off

If you want to do cardio/endurance and weight training on the same day, do the weight training first.
Being tired will be detrimental when you are doing some heavy lifting.
                             
As for food, don't avoid meat.
I don't know what your diet is like, but most women I know eat very poorly.

Drink non-soy, wholesome 2%milk. Stay hydrated with water. Don't drink coffee. Don't smoke. Eat eggs, the entire egg. The myth that eggs are bad for you was propagated because some people confused a 1970s study done on egg substitute powder for real eggs. Egg substitute powder is bad for you. Eggs are awesome. Cook your eggs. Studies show that more protein is absorbed by your body from the eggs if the eggs are cooked. No need to eat them raw.
Bacon is awesome. If you make a protein drink, use milk, not water.

When you eat lunch or dinner, it has to contain some form of meat (8/10 times) and a generous portion of a variety of vegetables. Eat fruit through out your day.  If you don't want just meat, then anything that compromises meat is fine. Pasta, with a meat sauce, for example. Chicken soup. Going without meat is ok every once in a while. I advise you to eat your steak medium-rare.
Cook with olive oil. Nuts have tons of healthy fat, which is essential for your body. Fat is not only good for you, but *necessary*. You just have to know which foods have the right fat. Some vitamins cannot be properly absorbed by your body if you eat very little fat; since they are fat soluble only.
The more you train, the more calories you need. A lack of calories will slow your gains and cause you to be/feel tired.
That's it for diet.

Half of the stuff you read in magazines, and online on popular websites is bull.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

Well, thank you for such a detailed response.

Someone in my office just demonstrated all those positions.  Interesting.  I can do them but my wrist problem limits the amount of weight I can use.  At the moment I am using 2 x 8kg dumbells (about 35 pounds) and even that is causing a lot of pain in my left wrist which in turn is causing pain in my left shoulder. I am hoping that if I persist then I will strengthen my wrist and be able to work with higher weights.  It also stops me from being able to use maximum weight (i.e. so I only do 5 - 8 reps) because my left and right wrist can take very different weights - I end up being limited by what my injured wrist can handle.

At the moment I do my cardio then weights.  I use a spinner to very high resistance and speed for an hour before core/weight work.  I figured it was a good way to warm up.  I could try doing weights first.

My diet is clean - I eat as you have suggested.  Plenty of meat, vegetables, fruit, nuts, milk, olive oils, eggs, water and some bread (not that fond of bread or pasta).  Mostly I can struggle to eat enough calories particularly when I am on-road.  I don't count calories or have portion control - I eat when I'm hungry and until I am full but it can be tricky when I'm driving!

I also take multi-vitamin, fish oil, glucosamine and some women specific supplements.  Aside from the glucosamine, I'm not sure they make a lot of difference.

I am going to redesign my workout programme over the Christmas break and I have printed your post and I'll definitely look at the programme and positions you have suggested.

So, thank you for taking the time.  S


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> I also take multi-vitamin, fish oil, glucosamine and some women specific supplements.  Aside from the glucosamine, I'm not sure they make a lot of difference.



Of all those, glucosamine is the questionable one.

Fish oil and multi are certainly useful.

IMO, starting out, you don't need to do as many exercises as Dave listed. I would look at the actual Starting Strength routine as a starting point. You really can't go wrong with it and it covers all the bases.

Dave's list contains a lot of movements I would classify as unnecessary or things that can be covered by the "kill two birds with one stone."

So yeah, to begin, I'd definitely advocate following Starting Strength. 

Once you become more experienced in lifting, you will be able to figure what works for you and what doesn't.

When I first started, I used a modified 5x5 routine. I stayed on that for about a year before my progress really stalled and then I made the switch to another structured program, which I have been following since the January of 2010. The key to constant progress in strength training is consistency, hard work and progression. As you get stronger, it becomes harder and takes longer to get stronger. That's why most people who go to the gym day in and day out still aren't that strong. They have no plan and don't work hard enough. Getting strong is hard, that's why not many people are.

Just to throw it out there, as of right now, my routine is this:

Day 1:

Strict overhead press
Deadlifts
Chin ups

Day 2:

Bench
Dumbbell bent over rows.
Chin ups

Day 3:

Strict overhead press
Squats
Chin ups

I usually throw in another round of squats on deadlift day or in between day 1 and 2 and do curls occasionally, but rarely.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

Thanks Kratos.

Is your avatar you?  Because if it is then I am amazed you look like that from what appears to be a simple (albeit no doubt hard) work out.  How long have you been weight training?  And what weights are you using (not that I would use your weights as a guide for me!!)?

Does it matter if you do more moves versus less (other than it possibly being inefficient)?  I like some of the moves Dave suggested.  Also, given I am having to use lower weights due to my wrist I can always increase reps and moves to keep it interesting.

And why is glucosamine questionable?

Is the 'Starting Strength' routine in a sticky?

S


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> Thanks Kratos.
> 
> Is your avatar you?  Because if it is then I am amazed you look like that from what appears to be a simple (albeit no doubt hard) work out.  How long have you been weight training?  And what weights are you using (not that I would use your weights as a guide for me!!)?
> 
> ...



- God, no. My av is Konstantin Konstantinovs. 

- It's the good ol' KISS principle. If you want to get good at X, you do X. If you can't concretely justify why you are doing something in the gym, then why are you doing it?

- I have been training since Feb. 2009. I took three months off that Summer, started again in Sept. 2009 and have missed only a handful of sessions since. I am still very inexperienced, but have learned a ton since I started and continue to learn.

- The weights I use vary on a week to week, month to month basis according to my program. My most current 1RMs are:

Deadlift: 520 lbs. I got 550 to just above my knees, but couldn't lock it out. This was a few weeks ago.

Bench press: 285 lbs. I started bench pressing in March 2010.

Squat: 195 kg, 429.9 lbs. This was in May. I took a long layoff from squatting, but am back to it now.

Strict overhead press: 210.5 lbs on as of this week.

All of those lifts were done at a body weight of 208-210 lbs.

- What you do it up to you. You have to make it fun for yourself, or you won't stick with it.

- The effectiveness of glucosamine has be questioned. Those of multivitamins and fish oil have not.

- No. You will have to Google Starting Strength and go to the website.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

Good grief Kratos - you deadlift 520 pounds?!?

Good for you!

Thanks for all the information.  I'll keep researching and hopefully I'll design something that'll work for me.  My current programme is not challenging me anymore so I am scoping for options.  Power lifting is definitely not for me!  Some of crossfit looks interesting.  And bdave's programme is also interesting.  But I am finding there is a lot of rubbish on the forums/web and I get frustrated with all the one-upping, 'poo poohing' and posing about which programme style is better than another.  It's difficult to get straight, sensible and pragmatic advice.

S


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

ObserverUK said:
			
		

> Good grief Kratos - you deadlift 520 pounds?!?
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> ...



520 sounds like a lot, but isn't that much, believe me. There are some guys in the 198 lb class _benching_ over 500.

Training for strength does not mean training for powerlifting. Powerlifting is just the sport of squat, bench press and deadlift, so those athletes tend to focus on increasing those three lifts. I don't train _for_ powerlifting, I just train for strength. I mean I focus on those three lifts and the overhead press because those are the main strength builders. Lots of people focus on those lifts, or have them as a main component of their training, and never compete. Lots of people focus on those lifts and do cardio and other things, as well.

Your last sentence is most certainly correct.

It's really about trying things and, after a while, finding out what works best for you. I suggested Starting Strength because that is widely regarded as *the* program to start with. Mark Rippetoe and the SS program are very well respected.


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## ObserverUK (27 Oct 2010)

I just googled Starting Strength.  Never heard the term before.  Very interesting.  Thanks for the tip.

I really like to work out but know nothing much about the science behind it.  My commitment is to stay fit and able - how I get there is optional so I am keen to explore.  I've been working out for 10 years and for the past 3/1/2 years without stopping.  I've done every form of cardio (including running 5 miles a day 6 days a week), done weights using isolation equipment (that was dull, even I prefer free weights), almost every type of core movement and I have kept upping resistance in cardio.  And along the way I have cleaned up and refined my diet.

But I need a new programme.  Doing more weight based work makes sense.  I'm just not sure how to do it.  My wrist injury is a limitation which is why I am on low weights and high reps.

Hmm, I'll keep investigating but I appreciate any help.  Knowing me, once I design my next programme, that's what I'll be doing for the next 12 months!

S


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## bdave (27 Oct 2010)

Kratos said:
			
		

> 520 sounds like a lot, but isn't that much, believe me. There are some guys in the 198 lb class _benching_ over 500.
> 
> Training for strength does not mean training for powerlifting. Powerlifting is just the sport of squat, bench press and deadlift, so those athletes tend to focus on increasing those three lifts. I don't train _for_ powerlifting, I just train for strength. I mean I focus on those three lifts and the overhead press because those are the main strength builders. Lots of people focus on those lifts, or have them as a main component of their training, and never compete. Lots of people focus on those lifts and do cardio and other things, as well.
> 
> ...



How the hell did you start benching this march and have a 285 BP?
Your numbers are very respectable. You bench raw or you are in a suit?


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## Ascendant (27 Oct 2010)

bdave said:
			
		

> How the hell did you start benching this march and have a 285 BP?
> Your numbers are very respectable. You bench raw or you are in a suit?



Just because I wasn't benching doesn't mean I wasn't doing any pressing. I've always done overhead work, which heavily involves the shoulders and triceps. The first time I laid down on a bench I worked up to a 230 single.

I have recently started strict pressing 2x/week, which has helped my bench a lot. You'll find many very strong guys press multiple times a week and advocate doing so. It's easy to recover from and it's one of those things that seem to follow the "more is better" idea. So, shoulder and tricep strength go up, so does bench. Consistency and structured progression in your program is key. My bench press is still very weak.

I would step out on a limb and say my numbers are pretty good for someone of my training experience. My numbers are not respectable/good when compared to other lifters. 

All my lifts are done raw. I'm not a fan of geared lifting. Benching 285 in a shirt would probably be grounds for offing oneself.


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