# Mountain Operations Course



## JO

I‘d just like to see what people would think of an idea like this. Many foreign countries have mountain/alpine operations units (eg. the US 10th Mountain Division in Fort Drum, New York).    How about converting 3PPCLI into an mountain operations battalion? They already have a mtn ops company, and they‘re reasonably close to the Rockies. Specializing the unit in mountain (and perhaps arctic) operations and giving it the requisite equipment (eg helicopters, utility vehicles, etc) might  give Canada a highly deployable, well-trained, flexible, almost elite unit for operations in mountainous terrain. I remember during the war in Kosovo one of the issues was whether the alliance could fight in the mountains effectively; given the fact that Canada has much mountainous terrain itself, the army might find a battalion/regiment like this useful. Any thoughts?


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## bossi

Well, it‘s only my opinion ... (and, it‘s often said "opinions are like anal orifices - we all have one, and if it doesn‘t work, then we‘re full of ....)

To begin with, I feel our army is too small, and I fear will get smaller.  Eventually, the budget cuts will go too deep, and we will only find out the hard way (i.e. when the bullets start flying ...)

Our infantry corps is similarly too small already (perhaps one of the reasons behind the disbanding of the Airborne Regiment was selfish greed, hoping the line serials would be re-distributed to the line infantry units ... but of course, that‘s just another conspiracy theory ... isn‘t it?)

In general, I support the concept of specialist units - BUT, only if the remainder of the "body" can support them!!

The Brits have got the Royal Marines, the Paras, and the SAS, but they‘ve also got a large enough Army - Canada doesn‘t.

Having said all of the above, I must face reality - we‘re down to three Regular infantry regiments (for now).  As long as they all maintain an acceptable level of common infantry skills and expertise, there is no reason they shouldn‘t be encouraged to each develop some specialised skills (i.e. coastal battalions could, and SHOULD practice amphibious operations.  Battalions nearest helicopter squadrons could, and SHOULD practice airmobile operations - heck, I wrote several articles in the Infantry Journal and Canadian Defence Quarterly suggesting airmobile, specifically.)

In this way, our pipsqueak army could at least keep some vestige of specialised skills alive.  Additionally, reservists could then be allowed to go and attend training with these specialist battalions, with the eventual aim of ensuring reserve battalions were similarly tasked with specialised roles (i.e. FIBUA for urban battalions ... seems to me this was an important skill during WWII in Italy, as I recall).

Okay - let loose the dogs of ... the War Diary!!
What have you other guys got to say ‘bout this?

Dileas Gu Brath
Mark Bossi, Esquire


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## the patriot

Hello Boys,

All of what I see here makes total sense, except for one thing. Don‘t the para companies within each regular force regiment already take care of these issues (i.e. special ops, mountain warfare, etc.)? Also, the JTF‘s mandate already includes training of such nature. In a nutshell, what I‘m saying is that the CF already has this capability. For example, our SAR Techs could very easily adapt immediately to an Airmobile assault capability at the flip of a switch.  What I‘m about to say will sound rather unorthodox, but then what‘s new. I suggest that DND buys back the Halifax Citadel, and bring back the Black Watch to the reg force Order of Battle. Montreal would stay as RHQ and have 1 Battalion, hence making Halifax the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Highland Regiment.  Granted, 2RCR is already in the area out of Gagetown, but this would  also solidify combined operations with the other two branches of the CF.

-the patriot-


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## JO

I understand what you mean by the small size of the infantry - granted, the infantry is probably too small to support a lot of specialization. In the (somewhat unlikely) event that the infantry is ever expanded, this concept may become more feasible. As to the Black Watch - I like the idea of bringing them back; my question is as what - mech or light, and which brigade? I would say mech, and put them in 2 CMBG - that way at least one of the brigades would have a full count of three infantry battalions (what they‘re supposed to have). I would say that we could use three new battalions instead of just one; one in the West (Seaforths, anyone?) and another francophone one for 5 GBMC (perhaps a second regforce francophone regiment?). Three new mech battalions wouldn‘t be cheap, but it would go a long way towards solving our manpower problems - and restoring combat effectiveness. Maybe I‘m just dreaming....


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## madorosh

Unfortunately, the Queen‘s Own Rifles are senior to the Watch in order of precedence, and you could never bring back the Watch and leave the QOR as reserves.  Besides which, the government HATES Highland regiments - they did away with all the reserve pipe bands 5 or 6 years ago (pretty crafty, actually - they KNEW no highland regiment would not have a pipe band, even if they had to "volunteer").  Not that I wouldn‘t love to see the RHR back on the order of battle as regulars...

Would our fictional Mountain Troops also maintain a mule/horse capability?  There was a British amoured regiment in Bosnia that put some troops back in the saddle for patrols in the hills - they could go where motorized vehicles couldn‘t.

Also - what FIBUA went on in Italy in World War Two besides Ortona?????  I thought that was the only instance.  It wasn‘t all that common in NW Europe, either, for that matter.  Buron (not exactly a metropolis) and Groningen come to mind immediately, but other than that - nothing springs out.

  I always thought modern armies avoided cities where possible - you can‘t sustain losses like that encountered at Stalingrad/Ortona/Berlin that often!  Is there really a need for FIBUA training given the size of our forces and the types of operations they are currently tasked with?  More imporantly (and I really don‘t know the answer, which is why I am asking) is it likely that our forces will need to have FIBUA training anytime in the next five years given the current world situation?  

Wouldn‘t a smart doctrine be to avoid fighting in cities when at all possible?  In World War Two, they simply sealed the Channel ports and left them to wither on the vine until May 1945 with intact German garrisons- tied up lots of troops, but they would have lost even more fighting street to street through all of them.


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## JO

My answer to the FIBUA question would be that given how often our troops find themselves in urbanized areas on deployments, this training should be a given. Look what happened in Sarajevo - or at the Americans in Mogadishu. Now, I realize that peacekeeping missions do not always reflect actual warfighting, and warfighting by all means should remain our primary business; but urban combat is looking to be a fact of conflict in the future. The US Marines recently did a series of exercises I think were called Urban Warrior (not sure on the name) because the US thinks FIBUA may be a large issue in the future. The sheer number of people living in urban centers around the world is another indication.
   As to the mule/horses idea, if it works, I don‘t see why it wouldn‘t be worth a look.


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## bossi

oh, heck - I can‘t resist ...

Doesn‘t anybody else remember the incident whereby some weenie in Ottawa decided the Seaforths "were not Canadian enough" to put on the guard (for APEC?), and they flew in Van Doos??

Sadly, foes of the kilt abound.

Speaking of Ortona, I‘ve always thought it incredible the 48th Highlanders crept up a "goat track" in the middle of the night, basically in single file - not too shabby for an urban regiment - then repulsed ferocious counter-attacks, and eventually forced the German withdrawal by threatening their rear.

As for FIBUA in general, it ranks right up there with mountain, jungle, or desert warfare - hopefully we won‘t be lulled into believing future operations will always be in the same type of terrain as our last operation ... ?

Dileas Gu Brath

Mark Bossi, Esquire


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## Mike Bobbitt

Mike,

You‘re absolutely correct regarding FIBUA: it‘s best to avoid city fighting.

However, the enemy usually notices that it is an excellent spot to defend, so unless we‘re prepared to bypass any built up areas, we‘re going to have to keep fighting in them.


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## madorosh

Aw, heck, Mark, now I can‘t resist!

I know the 48th were called Glamour Boys and the Hasty P‘s were the Plough Jockeys  - but did the number of urban v. country boys in any of the regiments in World War Two really make a difference - difference enough to distinguish between "urban" and "rural" units?  Surely three years of living in England in the same kinds of conditions and undergoing the same training would have evened things out a bit - assuming you think it makes a difference where the recruits came from in the first place.

Are there any stats showing the number of Toronto boys in the 48th versus the number of farmers in the Hasty P‘s by 1943?  The numbers of inductees won‘t help you cause by 43 large numbers of troops had been rotated around throughout the army, beginning as early as 1939 (I can‘t count the number of Calgary Highlanders who ended up with the Edmonton Regiment - and one of our vets at the museum (a platoon commander) went to the PPCLI at the tail end of the Sicily campaign and stayed with the unit til repatriation in 1945).

It‘s an interesting question, and since you‘ve mentioned the whole "urban" thing twice now, I get the feeling you‘re wanting to expand on that theme.

So by all means - and please - expand!

I wonder if Art Johnson has found his way here yet, too....


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## Art Johnson

Michael, I found my way but suffered a bit of fingeritis and my first attempt got lost in cyber space. First let‘s start with the pipe bands. Not all regiments lost their pipe band the 48th Pipe band is an official CF band and is on the strength of the regiment. The Pipe Major, Sandy Dewer (the piper at the Unknown Soldier Ceremony)is on a call out and teaching at the School of Music at Base Borden as is the Drum Major Chris Reesor.
As to specialized troops they have limited effectivness. The Americans disbanded both their mountain units and the Special Service Force in Italy. When the casualties come rolling in you need soldiers not specialist. I believe that you have referred to the German Army‘s ability to improvise in this manner in some of your postings.
Marc‘s reference to the goat trail during the Ortona battle is but one example. During the Sicilian campaign and the battle for Assoro both the Hasty Ps and the 48th were faced with night climbs up a thousand foot cliff with 8 to 40 foot terraces and they both made it to the top to the consternation of the Jerries. A well trained infantryman with good leadership can adapt to any terrain or situation, the Canadian soldier has done it on many an occasion.


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## Gunner

Just to add my two cents:

a.  SAR Techs are not elite commando‘s...they are only search and rescue technicians...no more no less.  They are trained in survival, first aid, etc, etc, not in specialized commando tactics, etc etc.  The attempts by the light infantry battalions to maintain skills in amphibious assault, mountain operations and parachute operations are simply scratching the surface of skills required for operations in different types of terrain.  

b.  FYI.  1 CMBG will be running a large scale FIBUA training exercise next year in May.  They will utilize the entire Griesbach Barracks site (1 sq km) to conduct a whole range of activities.  Once details are finalized I let you know the info (unless anyone else has anything on it?).  The Reserves in Western Canada will also partake in a portion of the exercise, building on the strength of the training during Ex TOTAL RAM.


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## madorosh

That‘s an excellent point, Art, about the 1 SSF being disbanded (it was actually after the landings in Southern France, though) - there was just no need for specialized troops anymore.  You can look at the Rhine crossings as "evidence" that Airborne and amphibious troops were a necessity - until you realize that Patton sneaked across the Rhine a day or so earlier than Monty, with regular infantry and tankers, while Monty landed several airborne divisions behind German lines.  I think maybe your point about adaptability is the best we‘ve heard yet.

Farley Mowat described the ascent on Assoro in detail - it must have been a killer.  Yet they DID receive mountain training in Scotland, did they not?  Wonder how much it helped.

I also wonder how those heights compared with Monte La Difensa - which were given to the mountain "specialists" of the 1 SSF.  Could a regular Canadian brigade have done as well at La Difensa?  Interesting point to ponder.

I am sure you told me about the 48th band before at some point, but thanks for reminding me.  I am under the impression that while a small number of positions were still left as paid positions in pipe bands across Canada, and the bands still had seperate UIC identifier codes, the majority of musicians were still unpaid members (or civilians) who volunteered their time.  Such is the case with the Calgary Highlanders, with but two paid positions - nonetheless the band is off to the Edinburgh Tattoo this summer.  Wish them luck!   I think some bands such as the Black Watch may have fudged the numbers to keep paying their musicians - is that actually the case with the 48th, or are there actually paid positions for each of the pipers and drummers on strength?


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## armdfist

Unfortunately, the gov‘t doesn‘t like the idea of Highland regiments representing the regular Canadian Army.  This goes way back, and one of the reasons for the formation of the Canadian Guards.

If expansion was ever considered (highly unlikely), it would make more sense to add another battalion to each regiment.  Although it is not historically that you see Regiments with 4 battalions (or is it?), it would make more sense than to activate reserve regiments.

Bold and Swift

PS any zipperheads or old gooners kicking around


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## the patriot

Hello,

Just a further anecdote to the SAR Tech discussion.  One must be in the CF for 3 years prior to posting for the selections process for search and rescue ops.Essentially, within those three years, a soldier can obtain the "so-called elite commando skills" within their respective Light Infantry Battalions via courses at your local Battle School.  So essentially, when they become a SAR, they‘ve indirectly now added an airmobile component to their background. Hence the logic behind the statement that SAR‘s can be switched to an airmobile role at the flip of a switch.

-the patriot-


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## bossi

A propos to the comment about bypassing built-up areas, I thought the "quote of the day" from the Staff College news page was quite appropriate:

"Battles are won by slaughter and manoeuvre. The greater the general, the more he contributes in manoeuvre, the less he demands in slaughter." 
- Winston S. Churchill 

(I find I‘m appreciating Winnie‘s gems of wisdom more, and more ...)

Dileas Gu Brath
Mark Bossi, Esquire


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## Doug VT

I don‘t know what SAR Techs you‘re talking about.  There may be more ex-combat arms than anything else in the SAR‘s but they‘re not all infantry and those that were wern‘t all from LIB‘s.  Don‘t get me wrong, being a SAR is probably one of the most demanding job in the CF, both physicaly and mentally.  They have my utmost respect.  However, skills earned in an infantry role are perishable and must be maintained, they do not come back "At the flip of a switch"!


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## Jules Deschenes

Since this is a learning site, what is FIBUA? Also what is this ire towards the Van Doos? Since I respect most of you I will be immoderate. It is starting to sound like sibbling rivalry and/or petty jealousy. I for one thought most of you were beyond this. I guess I was wrong. Very unprofessional gentlemen. I haven‘t found a perfect regiment yet and I‘m certain that if one were to dig deep enough one would find skeletons.


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## madorosh

HOLD ON JULES!

First of all, FIBUA is Fighting in Built Up Areas.

Secondly, all that was said about the Van Doos was that they were flown in to replace a Guard of Honour from the Seaforth Highlanders.

This was stupid because 

a) It cost a lot of money to fly them in

b) The Seaforths had a guard capable of doing just as good a job, on the ground, in Vancouver (ie no transport costs necessary)

c) It seemed that certain higher ups felt that a Highland regiment was not capable of representing "Canada" and did not look "Canadian" enough.  Which is BS because 1 out of every 3 infantry battalions in Italy and NW Europe during World War Two were Highland regiments.

I don‘t see where that is any kind of negative comment about the Van Doos at all.  So let‘s let it lie there.

Welcome to the new site, by the way!  Nice to "see" a friendly "face".


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## bossi

Lighten up, Jules!

As previously explained, no slight to the R22R was intended (methinks you read a little too much into it).

Dileas Gu Brath
Mark Bossi, Esquire


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## Jules Deschenes

I agree about the expense in flying the Van Doos out, it was stupid. Seaforth, or otherwise, a local regiment would have done nicely. Apologies gentlemen am very protective of Canadian Regiments but of Van Doos and Chaudieres in particular. Haven‘t been on for a while had nothing to say. Going north of 60 for a month on friday. Nice to chat again.


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## tatonka

First off, let me say what a pleasure it is to read some intelligent discussion online.  A nice change from the slagging I‘ve seen on other sites.

The adoption of a mountain ops role is something being discussed within the Calgary Highlanders.  Junior leaders are in favour of it; seniors need more convincing.  I think it makes sense for a number of reasons, given our geographic location, our light infantry designation, and the desire to challenge young soldiers with tough training and new skills (They are equally enthusiastic about FIBUA and really enjoyed a brief amphibious ex off Albert Head in March).  Of course, mountain ops would augment core combat skills (ie, we wouldn‘t be doing this to exclusion of other general purpose skills).  The challenge is finding time to conduct specialized training, acquiring the necessary equipment, and then wrapping everything up in a realistic tactical scenario.
Just conducting a basic mountain ops course will require a good deal of effort.

If such skills as FIBUA, airmobile, amphibious ops and mountain ops are to survive, we don‘t need specialized units for each one... but it makes sense to assign these tasks to specific units based on their geographic locations and the availability of specialized resources--whether they are regs or reserves.


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## madorosh

Nice to see another Calgary Highlander here - 

I‘ll make one historical comment regarding assigning specific specialist roles to units - and it is an obvious one.  And that comment is - once a role is assigned, it has to be maintained, with trained troops/instructors able to perpetuate the unit in that role.

The Calgary Highlanders were one of two (I believe) battalions in the Second Division to receive assault boat training when in England during WW II (it was expected that an assault crossing of the Seine would be necessary, and the Second Div would be assigned to that task once on the continent after D-Day).   The Seine crossing never materialized, at least for 2 Div, but later on in October when it was decided to cross the Sloe channel with assault boats, they found that most of the boat trained personnel had gone - either casualties or transfers.  In the end, that crossing was called off as well due to the unsuitable terrain.

The point is, in this instance, and even (perhaps especially) in peacetime, you have the question of retention rearing its ugly head.  Personally, I think more challenging training like mountain, amphib, etc., will attract soldiers and keep them around.  But those who look at the flip side will say that such training is more costly and if specially trained troops arent‘ sticking around to keep the level of employability in that role high, then why bother.

I do know that I enjoyed being in the mountains on our last exercise a lot more than I would have being in Wainwright (AGAIN).  I‘m sure the whole question of retention is something that mystifies people at all levels.  Hopefully challenging training is something that can realistically address that issue - unfortuntately it‘s not a matter of having to please the dedicated - I will spend my weekends in the same grid reference in Wainwright every weekend if I have to - it comes down to trying to please the fickle high school student who may or may not decide to go on exercise at the last moment because he is bored with it.

Pretty crappy way to run an army, but it‘s what we‘ve got.

Is there any way you can discuss the objections of the senior leadership to mountain training here in open forum (without getting into trouble?)   Are the objections economic ones, or is there resistance to the idea of specializiation in general?


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## bossi

Regarding the question of "discussing ... without getting in trouble ...".

It‘s fairly simple, Mr. Dorosh - as long as a serving member of the Canadian Forces does not represent themselves as such, and as long as they only state their PERSONAL opinion, they should be able to keep out of trouble.

But, that‘s just my personal opinion.

Dileas Gu Brath
Mark Bossi, Esquire


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## Bob McGonigal

To armdfist: I am former RCD but never did have the hatch come down on my head. Audax Et Celer


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## madorosh

Mark, my father was named Mister Dorosh.  You‘re free to call me Mike if you wish.

The point is - tatonka has already represented himself as a member of the CF - as have I, you, and many of the posters here.  I was asking him about matters that may or may not be subjects fit only for behind closed doors discussion.  It is for that reason that I left it to his discretion whether or not to answer.  It is his call.


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## Mike Bobbitt

Unfortunately, those with a memory going back a year or so will remember some people from this forum and from the mailing list getting reprimanded for their postings.

It caused a flurry of opinions with regards to when it‘s right and wrong to post controversial info, but in the end I don‘t think we figured that one out. Personally, I think there are times when discretion is the better part of valour.

However, just because something may be provocative doesn‘t mean it shouldn‘t be said. Usually it‘s the opposite. (Just another reason for DND to hate my site...)

Regardless, I have created a new account to allow people to post anonymously, if they feel the situation warrants it.

The username and password are both "anonymous" (no quotes). Feel free to use it, but it it gets abused, of course, it will disappear.

Cheers


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## Art Johnson

Michael: I have some answeres to your questions directed at me. Yes the 48th did have mountain training in Scotland in fact they left directly from that training to go to Sicily. 
The present regiment has an establishment for 35 Bandsmen but I understand this may be reduced to 25 sometime in the future. 
Still working on the disbandment of the SSF in Italy, at least the Canadian part of it. The 48th received reinfrocements from the The SSF, you have a picture of one of them on your web site, I believe it was after Ortona.


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## Mr Magoo

Our Army is too small to have much else besides a 
General Purpose Combat Capability.

Having said that, we should all in our lifetimes in 
uniform, in peacetime, learn mountaineering, Arctic 
operations, air-mobile and FIBUA.

Much of the world is mountainous.  Check an atlas 
that has relief on it.  Besides, mountaineering 
training is tough, requires teamwork, keeps people 
interested and develops the ability to adapt to 
another environment.  

Most of the world‘s population lives in cities.  Cities 
are where the wealth, and industry are located.  Why fight 
over open country, farmland, forests?  Cities have water, 
food, transport links, infrastructure, banks, governments...

SAR techs are too valuable a resource to put into combat.  
They‘d be needed in wartime to rescue downed pilots, and 
sunken ships‘ crews.  They‘re also not combat arms, not trained 
in logistics to resupply themselves, don‘t operate above section level, don‘t train with weapons, have no officers...


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## MedCorps

Does anyone know of a Basic Mountain Operations Course (AGLY) being run?  I know they are run often by the light btn‘s and sometime the ResF.   

I have one of my troops I want to send on the AMO Course (not the next one, but next year) but he needs BMO first.  

I would also be interested in a copy of the BMO or AMO trg plans (A-P9-004-SCF/PC-B01 and A-P9-004-SCG/PC-BO1) if anyone has a copy.  The DWAN CFPD site is (still) down and I cannot seem to locate a copy.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## Doug VT

AMO is an instructor course (MOI) your "troop" must be PLQ qualified or higher.  No word on if we will be running a basic course this year yet.  Normally there aren‘t any pers from outside BN course loaded, due to the fact that it is an infantry dominated skillset.


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## combat_medic

Our unit is running a BMO course at the moment, but it‘s also an infantry only course.


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## MedCorps

It is too bad that most people feel that AGLY (Mountain Operations - Basic) is an infanty-centric course.  A-PD-055-004/PQ-001 makes it clear that the course is of value to a number of trades.  

From a less pam / more practical application, it makes good logic to have the people who are with you on patrols in the mountains (read: Med Tech‘s, Sig Ops, FOO tm pers, Fd Eng) also qualified in the BMO skill set.  Oddly enough pers get injuried in the mountains and need to be cared for in that environment.  

I have a group of Med Techs now that are civilian High Angle Rescue Level (1-3) qualified and/or HAR instructors, but I wish that I could find a BMO course for the MCpl so that I could get him on AMO someday.  It would be an asset to have a military slant placed upon his current skills.  

Good read (if anyone cares) on the importance of mountain operations skills with notable attention to CSS pers who have to work in that environment.  It was by Sgt Gauley of 3 PPCLI and can be found in The Army Doctrine and Training Vol 6, No. 1, Spring 2003.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## Dogboy

i was wondering how often do they offer the mountain warfair course. and how hard is it 
iv always loved the mountins and would love to go and train their and the course sounds like fun.( iv alwes loved a long uphill hike) 
also how dose one get to be a instructor?

I'm joining soon and its a path id love to look in to.


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## Spooks

Umm...being not from the mountain company I can't say for sure, but I may take a crack at it.

Basic Mountain Operations (BMO) you can take. I believe it's only a few weeks long but strenuous. You first learn A LOT of knots. You then goto the Rockies and spend some time applying skills there such as asssited assent of a mountain, walking down, rappelling (lots of it) and in the end is casualty evacuation or something along those lines. Your PT while on course is mainly your hike (with rucks varrying in weight) for maybe and hour each way to and from your 'classroom' from your camp area. You get to use the oh-so-comfortable Swiss seat for the entire time as from what I'm told, you can't wear a harness until you are Rappell Master qualified.

To instruct you need your Advance MO course which you take when you are of a rank above Pte I believe. I know nothing of this except for the fact that once you have this you are qualified to set lines for your entire company to use and make bridges etc. 
Don't quote me on this, but I do know that it's a handy qualification to have under your belt esp. if you are LightInf

-Spooks


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## I_am_John_Galt

Spooks said:
			
		

> Basic Mountain Operations (BMO) you can take.



They featured this course on one episode of "Truth, Duty, Valour" (OLN), if you get the chance to catch it ...


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## Dogboy

achuly thats why im asking 
becuse i saw it


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## MedCorps

Basic Mountain Operations (BMO or AGLY) can be taken by any rank that is MOC qualified and has an MOC (based on A-PD-055-003/PQ-001) that could have a use for it.   It is generally unit run.    As mentioned it covers the basics including such skills as maintaining and handling ropes, knots / lashings / seats, rappelling and belaying.   There is also fixed line, rope bridges, vertical hauling lines, suspension traverse and casualty evac work covered on this course.   

The Advanced Mountain Operations (AMO) Course is at least 42 days long and is conducted by CPC.   The generally only run one per year.   You need to be at least a MCpl (or Cpl with PLQ, I have heard they will exempt load)   / 2Lt to do this course.   Why MCpl / 2Lt because once you graduate you will need to be able to advise your CO on operations in mountain terrain.   Once qualified AMO you can teach BMO courses.    This course is not only hard to get loaded onto, but also hard in nature both brains and brawn.    

Both some of the few good courses we have left.   Too bad we do not do more of this kind of stuff.   

Cheers, 

MC


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## Gunnerlove

Ah, at the mention of the Swiss seat repressed memories of pain and discomfort come flooding back. Sounds like an interesting course though.


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## Spooks

Now how about the normal memory of the swiss seat combined with a very jumpy breakman who can break very suddenly without your knowledge?

-Spooks


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## axeman

hey what about a good seat crappy gloves and a brake man who has his head up his.... i watched a friend break his ankle   because ofthe brake man not knowing what to do .   :


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## --Metalhead--

Hey, I am pretty old to this forum, but I just decided to finally make a account and ask a few questions. Heres my first...   The search button is taking me awhile to use, and I know this was brought up, but I need a direct answer...* How long does it take just for my application form to process in order to be accepted into the Canadian reserve and start basic training in the Canadian Reserve?* I had a Canadian reserve/army recruit team come over to my high school last December 2004, and had set up a booth, as it was a course carousel type of set up in my cafeteria to get a feel of what courses I should taking next year. Anyways, they handed me a slip of paper, that questioned something like " Are you tough enough?..." and stated all the requirements to join the reserve, specifically the 32 Canadian Brigade I think it was. Anyways, they got me thinking in joining the reserve for just basic training during the summer. I am currently in grade 10 by the way.

My 2nd question is... *If I do join the Canadian Reserve next year, 2006, would it be possible to get a discharge right after I finish my Basic training? * Form what I heard, if it takes a while for applications just to be processed in order to join the Canadian forces, will they screw me over and take their sweet time in processing my discharge? Anyways, I want to do basic training during my summer, right before I start grade 12, September, 2006... my parents are nagging me not to join (they will send you off to war, blah, blah, blah), but I want to do basic training because it sounds fun and cool... good exercise and discipline. Thanks for your replies. My other question is, if they do not discharge me/or If I don't discharge before school starts again for me, do I have to work during the weekends? or weekdays too? Because I have school, and that would be no fair to me if they work me like a dog... I need the time to study as I will be going to University.


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## Love793

The reserves training year is based around the school year.  We primarily train, one/two night(s) a week and 1 or 2 weekend(s) a month.  It's similar to other part time jobs in that manner (with better pay and less "abuse" than "MC Garbage", "Burger Prince" or "Tammys").  If you wait until you're 18, your parents can't legally say anything regarding your enrollment.


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## JBP

> If I do join the Canadian Reserve next year, 2006, would it be possible to get a discharge right after I finish my Basic training?



Why bother joining up if your just going to quit? It's a waste of your time, the ARMY's time and taxpayer's money... Someone useful could have the thousands of dollars of training put into them enstead.

If your afraid of a little weekend work and 1 night a week, do yourself, and more importantly, the army a favour and don't bother. You have to be serious about this kind of thing, it's not your everyday job and they need people who are dedicated! It's the ARMY, not Slim Jim's Burger Flop House...

Not trying to ruffle your feathers kid, just trying to wake you up abit.


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## Sharpey

Plus if you tell them you are just quitting after your basic training, the CFRC will probably just tell you to blow smoke and be off with you. Perhaps Love793 could elaborate on approx. how much it costs to process a new recruit. I do belive on the average, it costs a Regiment $10,000 to send a troop off on a course. They won't benefit from you quitting after summer training at all, so they will probably tell you to blow it out your ear aswell.


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## Ty

Joining the Army Reserves is a commitment that you should take seriously.  Your initial training period would be pretty intensive over the summer months- which would be ideal for a student attending high school/university.  The pay is decent and the job is very rewarding.  During other times of the year you would be expected to attend parade nights (usually once a week) and weekend exercises (1-2 weekends a month)  You get paid for both.  As my CO recently explained to me, your career, education, and family take precedence over the Reserves- however, you are making a commitment to the latter and should seriously consider the all other things in your life beforehand.  You can quit the Reserves at any time (there is no contract), however, doing so after a very short period speaks volumes about your character.

You've mentioned that you wish to pursue post-secondary education- there are plans to have the Reserve pay for that education as well as potentially giving you a commission as an officer.  You've mentioned that you want to improve your physical fitness, BMQ will certainly get you on that path.  You've mentioned that you want more discipline, working in a regiment will certainly achieve that goal for you.  However, you must be able to meet the minimum expectations of your unit.  The CF is not a summer camp- if we do go to war, you become obligated to serve.  Take this very seriously when making your decision.  I'd recommend you contact a unit near you and ask to speak with their recruiting NCM/Officer and go from there.  

Good luck.


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## GO!!!

If you are going to skool, the militia is ideal, most of the long commitments are in the summer, and as a reservist, you only have to show up if you feel like it (unless the war measures act is invoked)

<MODERATOR EDIT:  THIS IS WRONG: CONTINUED POSTING OF FALSE OR MISLEADING CLAIMS MAY RESULT IN MODERATOR ACTION>


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## dutchie

GO!!! said:
			
		

> If you are going to skool, the militia is ideal, most of the long commitments are in the summer, and as a reservist, you only have to show up if you feel like it (unless the war measures act is invoked)


WRONG!

You must parade regularly. Minimum is 1 out of 3 weeks (IIRC - I show up for all commitments, so I could be off on the exact minimum). Some units hold their members to a higher standard, but that is the minimum.

GO!!: based on your grammar, spelling, and punctuation, I think 'skool' is a good idea for you as well.


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## Love793

Sharpie said:
			
		

> Plus if you tell them you are just quitting after your basic training, the CFRC will probably just tell you to blow smoke and be off with you. Perhaps Love793 could elaborate on approx. how much it costs to process a new recruit. I do belive on the average, it costs a Regiment $10,000 to send a troop off on a course. They won't benefit from you quitting after summer training at all, so they will probably tell you to blow it out your ear aswell.



Exactly, CFRC wont tell you to pound salt, but I as the unit recruiter will direct you else where (Navy perhaps).  The CO would hang me if I allowed a kid to join, knowing that he was going to leave immediatelly after BMQ/SQ, and not transfer.  $10 000 is the rough cost to the unit to send someone on ARC BMQ/SQ, add to that processing costs, instructors wages, transport etc...


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## Dogboy

when I was at the recruiters offish I was told a 75% attendance is the requirement. if you cant make that you should think about why your joining.


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## Sharpey

Dogboy said:
			
		

> when I was at the recruiters offish I was told a 75% attendance is the requirement. if you cant make that you should think about why your joining.



Bingo! If you can't make it for a year after BMQ/SQ, then go on ED&T. That way you can come back to the Military and be of benifit.


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## JBP

I think the nickname Metalhead would be more appropriately titled "Meathead" and this thread is finished. He hasn't responded, probably not liking our words...


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## Greasyoldman

I have no idea if you will actually read this or not, but I have answered these questions to many people before who were looking into joining the reserves. 1st, your application process can take any length of time. It took me about a month to join, while I've seen other people wait for over a year. Most of it depends on whether or not all the paperwork is in order, prior to sending it off to CFRC. That should speed up the process significantly. Now, your second question. There is no minimun time that a reservist has to stay in. I've seen soldiers join get sworn in on a Thursday night, and quit the next Saturday for whatever reason. Normally the staff tries to discourage quitting, but ultimately it's up to the individual. Once your basic training is complete, you can quit if you like, but I honestly I do see the point in even joining if that's the plan. If you do plan on staying around a bit, here's what you're likely to expect. (this is the way my unit operates, other units may may be different depending on SOP's). Normally, as others have stated you will be required to attend one training night a week, (varies between units which night), and one weekend a month. Ours is Thursdays and usually the second to last weekend in the month. Now, if you're going to school, or have plenty of school work, you can request to have some time off. A simple memo requesting to have a certain weekend off because you have 2 finals on Monday or whatever reason should be suffice. Normally you'll be excused from training and there will be no repercussions. If for whatever reason you decide not to show up whitout prior notice, you will probably be counselled in one for or another, but usually nothing serious for your first offence. Normally attendance for training weekends is taking in advance so the unit knows how many people to provide ammo/rations/quarters for. If you say you are going to attend, I suggest you attend, if not, let them know. Now, with our unit, if you miss more then 5 training sessions in a row, without being excused (a weekend counts a 3, Fri/sat/sun), you'll be placed on the NES list (Non-Effective Strength) and you name will go to the bottom of the list for courses and tasking. If you attendance continues to be poor, your release papers will be started. Normally you're threatened with a 5F (Dishonorable Discharge). That's where you have to make the choice, normally people will come in and take a voluntary release and hand in there kit. If you're planning on doing the basic training, I suggest you stick around for awhile afterwards because you owe it to your unit. 1000's of reserve soldiers balance high school, university, civilian careers and the militia on a regular bases, I don't see why you can't.

Ty


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## sm0ke

...as someone who's about to apply to the reserves, it's a complete mystery to me why a person would apply to any job, no exceptions, if they don't plan on making the maximum commitment possible to that employer.   No employer would accept the level of commitment you're offering, nor the attitude it displays ~ certainly not the military.


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## Tpr.Orange

If you dont mind me asking what school are you from? and do you remember what unit the recruiters came from?

Just trying to figure out if its guys from our recruiting team. Helps us track our progress in schools.


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## George Wallace

sm0ke said:
			
		

> ...as someone who's about to apply to the reserves, it's a complete mystery to me why a person would apply to any job, if they don't plan on making the maximum commitment possible to that employer. No employer would accept the level of commitment you're offering, nor the attitude it displays ~ certainly not the military.



.....of course you know the only reason is to get that CADPAT uniform for free and wear it downtown and look cool and pick up chicks on a Friday night........free cool cloths.....why work when my parents give me an allowance.......then I can collect welfare....... and then Old Age Pension.....Socialism rules....... :

GW


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## sm0ke

lol...chicks dig cadpat?   I can't wait.


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## pi-r-squared

Question.  Is it true that when rappelling down a cliff face, one would walk down rather than jump but while rappelling off a helicopter, one would push off of the skid with a large jump?  I heard a WO mountaineering instructor say that, but I heard in a physics classroom that jumping is more beneficial in aspects of tension.  Of course I would listen to the WO because he knows what he is doing, but I wonder if anyone else qualified can back up the claim?


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## MJP

pi-r-squared said:
			
		

> Question.   Is it true that when rappelling down a cliff face, one would walk down rather than jump but while rappelling off a helicopter, one would push off of the skid with a large jump?   I heard a WO mountaineering instructor say that, but I heard in a physics classroom that jumping is more beneficial in aspects of tension.   Of course I would listen to the WO because he knows what he is doing, but I wonder if anyone else qualified can back up the claim?



You have to jump off the skid so your head doesn't meet the steel, which is usually not recommended.  As for walking down a cliff, it really depends.  Most likely he is refering to the fact that out in an actual mountain face the rock usually isn't the flat smooth surface we are use to on the tower.  Jumping around on an uneven surface isn't exactly the best for the ankles.


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## Mikhala

When rappelling down a "cliff face" you want to move slowly and steadily with NO bounces or leaps.  By walking you are able to get a feel for the rock under your feet and keep your pace under control.  By bounding you obviously hit the wall with some force each time you impact.  That force can easily knock away rock, debris and even big slabs.  The faster you descend more heat and stress is placed on the rappel system.  I know from personal experience.  The last thing your brake man wants to see when he looks up is a 200 pound piece of mountain coming down on him.

An outstanding book to have if you have any interest in mountaineering:

MOUNTAINEERING
The Freedom of the Hill Edition 7
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978089886828&Catalog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1


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## GO!!!

It's really nice that so many people have an "interest" in mountain ops, and that they would like to go on the course. However, the units that run them restrict spots to people that will actually use them - like the light Bns and their supporting medics, sigs etc.

Having said that, the reason we have attached medics in the first place, and qualify them BMO, Para etc is so that they can accompany us on ops. Their passing interest does'nt help us a whole lot. If the good medic's troop would like to come to a light Bn, chances are he will go on a BMO quite soon. If he just wants the qual, he should look elsewhere. As for putting him on AMO, good luck. AMOs are for advising Cdrs on Mtn Ops and traning and supervising BMO troops. Not exactly a medics ball game.

If you want to do infantry stuff - join the infantry - and all that it entails.


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## PhilB

I agree completely. I learned a shit load on my BMO course. You do not need a BMO course to operate in a mountainous environment. It helps but it is not essential. The role of the BMO is to assist the AMO in setting up installations (i.e. rope brigdes, vertical hauling lines, zip lines, and rappel lanes). It is also the bmo's job to check over troops/equipment before they are sent over the installation. It is a very infantry specific skill set, as generally at least the AMO's will be recce qualified. They are generally used as a battalion asset. I.E. sent out in small teams to recce the routes and set up the installations neccassary to move bodies of troops over them. It helps if all of those troops moving are mountain qualified however it doesnt take a genious to walk over a 3 rope bridge.


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## sdimock

What do you think of BMO/AMO being an Engineer task?

Not exclusively, but attached Engineers performing that function for the Infanteers.

Good idea, bad idea, indifferent?


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## combat_medic

sdimock: Since it seems like the Engineers are taking over a lot of tasks that were previously occupied by the Pioneers, I think it would make a lot of sense to offer the BMO course to engineers.


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## axeman

its an idea the amo / bmo isnt strictly infantry if theres a need for you to be able to do this you would be put on the course normmally trhe enginreers are swamped with their trade specific  courses it gets tossed to the other real trade on the ground  . ive been on the recce courses where its a mix with the engineers and infantry with one arty member also tossed into the mix


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## GO!!!

In my experience - the engineers are so ridiculously over - tasked that they barely get their existing tasks done! (but they do)

Yet another qual for the chimos at the expense of the infantry is not a good idea. 

Once you lose the budget and instructors for stuff like that - it is gone forever, just like the pioneers and indirect MG fire.


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## sdimock

I'm wondering since bridging is out of the 3s, if it's someones grand plan to have the basic engineer be the equivalent of the old pioneer and just attach a couple to each section. 

Chimo


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## MJP

I certainly hope not and the engineers here will most likely agree.  I'd love to have them all the time, but to me it's a monumental misuse of the engineers to solely employ them in that fashion.


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