# Military Culture



## Recon_Guardsman (12 Sep 2006)

Hey everyone.
Im currently an Army Reservist out of Toronto. Im seriously considering being a pilot under the ROTP, and so I had a quick question. I had heard that the culture in the Army is very different than that of the Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had any info on this that could help clear that up for me. 

Thanks a lot.


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## Crimmsy (12 Sep 2006)

Is there anything in particular you'd like to know? One thing that comes to mind right away is that you'll rarely see a squadron or a flight going out for a run together at 0600.


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## Centurian1985 (12 Sep 2006)

However, you may see aircrews up at 0400 getting ready for a flight that has a briefing at 0530 and departs at 0600. Or the ground crew might have been working on an aircraft since 0100 trying to get it flying for the next day. 

I wore an army uniform while working for the air force for 15 years. You cant compare the two in terms of group PT; its like comparing apples to oranges.

As the previous poster noted, the army does group PT, often early in the morning.  They eat together, live together, train together, fight together.  You are dependent on your team-mates and after a while it becomes so 'normal' that it feels odd to do things independently.  It has a large number of NCMs and NCOs led by a small number of Officers who are kept seperated from their men because familiarity often leads to a lack of respect and a breakdown in the command structure.  The officers are often in positions where the only authority is the officer, who can only lead through the ability to inspire respect and loyalty (or on the other end of the spectrum, through fear and intimidation).   

The air force is different.  Their airmen and crews do their activities apart because thats how they work and fight.  Pilots are alone in their aircraft, independent, with no one to depend on but themselves and a wingman.  Even in large aircrews, they still act as independent cogs of a single system.  They live individually and do PT individually, although they do eat and train in small groups.   It becomes unusual for them to do things as part of a large group.   Officers work with NCMs and NCOs more informaly because they dont care as much about chains of command as long as the task is accomplished.  In the air Officers are in charge of the plane and on the ground they are at a base where you just call MPs if someone doesnt obey the rules.      

This is not just true about the army and air force but also with specific trades.  Combat Engineers tend to work and fight as teams, so adopt a team mentality.  Int Ops work and operate individually so they adopt an individual mentality.  Many other examples are out there.  And then you have the Navy, which is definately different from both the Army and Air Force!


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## Loachman (12 Sep 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> In the air Officers are in charge of the plane and on the ground they are at a base where you just call MPs if someone doesnt obey the rules.


That's not entirely true - but then Tac Hel should really be Army anyway. Other than that, a pretty good summary.

Mr Guardsman: I e-mailed you.


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## Journeyman (12 Sep 2006)

*WTF?!?  * I've ignored this posting and come back to it three times  



> *Officers who are kept seperated from their men because familiarity often leads to a lack of respect and a breakdown in the command structure*.


  Separated? [feel free to use spell-check] Ever heard of a platoon house. Lead from the front. Never ask troops to do what you are unwilling to do yourself.....  Leaders who are not respected, regardless of their rank, have not earned that respect - - whether they bunk with their platoon or not. Conversely, does the air force not also have separate messes by rank? Is that how the command structure kept functioning?


> *The officers are often in positions where the only authority is the officer*


Do the WOs, Sgts, MCpls have no authority? Is span of control a completely alien concept? What are you on?


In the end, the only explanation I can come up with is


			
				Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> *...while working for the air force  for 15 years*


You have obviously never deployed on operations, in the field, in a position entailing command authority, with an army unit. As such, you are clearly, painfully unqualified to comment on army leadership and team dynamics! Stay in your lane, or restrict your postings to Radio Chatter.  :

...and Loachman, _you_ should know better


Edited to remove unnecessary sarcasm, disbelief, and personal abuse. No really. You should have seen the original response


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## Recon_Guardsman (12 Sep 2006)

I guess when I refer to culture, Im more thinking along the lines of... PT (thank you for answering, btw), c*ck level on courses, free time, formality/informality in the work place, etc.


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## rmacqueen (12 Sep 2006)

One thing I noticed when I joined HS443, having come from an army background, is there is also a more familial feel to the Air Force.  Enforcement of rank after work is less important with officers and ncm's intermingling and first names being used.  This is completely understandable as, unlike the army, the air crew put their lives in the hands of the ground crew.  An engine malfunction at 10,000 feet is a lot different than a LAV breaking down.  Another side of that is there tends to be a lot more respect amongst the various trades within a squadron right down to the non-air trades like Log and Admin.

Of course, there are also the wonderful, sugar laden snacks that air units always have available (I know there is an actual name for them but memory starts to go at my age)


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## cp140tech (12 Sep 2006)

I can't speak for aircrew, I'm in AVN tech in Greenwood.... but i can give you a bit of insight towards general working atmosphere.

  We honestly do not have time to do unit, or even crew PT, it's difficult enough to get a chance to run a squadron sports day twice/year.  The flying schedule and required maintenance demands that we are always at the hangar/flight line to keep these bad boys in the air.  Aircraft need a great deal of maintenance to remain serviceable.  Even getting time off to work out on your own is very tough, depending on your particular skill set and trade specialty of course.  I'm speaking for first line maintenance as well, shop environments are generally a bit more flexible.  
  
  The aircrew here work the same shift we do I believe.... 7 on 3 off, 7 on 4 off with a switch between days and evenings in the middle of the shift... then throw in some midnights and it gets tough.  Plus they are deploying regularly which can really throw off their shift schedules, they stay pretty busy from what I can see.  If we've got a 0730  launch, the flight engineer is usually out on the aircraft by 0500 or so doing his checks and getting things ready (don't quote me on the exact time... but they're in early).  I can't speak for the rest of the crew, they're in early but we don't see the pilots until they pop in to run through the log set and make sure they're happy with the aircraft, no doubt they're in  several hours before start time.  They might be up for an 8-10 hour flight, then roll back in and hand over any snags they've had with the aircraft and head off for a debrief I expect.  Those folks put in some pretty long days, with little margin for error.
   
  The level of formality is quite low, depending on the occasion and present company of course, even between aircrew and ground crew.  I never address a warrant or sgt by first name, but many of the techs do....  I've never seen it cause a problem.  The officers always introduce themselves by first name and a handshake, they treat us very well on deployed ops.  We are free to socialize and drink together, it's a good time for all involved so long as basic respect is observed.  
   
  That's my perspective from the bottom up, sorry I can't give you a better picture of their day to day routine, but it's not something I ever see.  They all seem to really enjoy their jobs, and they seem to be treated very well.  The atmosphere seems to vary a great deal between fleets, but I've only been exposed to the CP 140/A environment.  I'm sure one of the pilots here will give you a much better idea of what to expect.


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## Centurian1985 (12 Sep 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Separated? [feel free to use spell-check] Ever heard of a platoon house. Lead from the front. Never ask troops to do what you are unwilling to do yourself.....  Leaders who are not respected, regardless of their rank, have not earned that respect - - whether they bunk with their platoon or not. Conversely, does the air force not also have separate messes by rank? Is that how the command structure kept functioning?Do the WOs, Sgts, MCpls have no authority? Is span of control a completely alien concept? What are you on?



You are over-reacting here, deliberately confusing issues, and suffering from tunnel vision.  This is not about how a single unit operates in one part of Canada.  this is about how the army and air force operates in general; reg, reserve, deployed, rear-party, overseas, domestic, east or west. 

Yes, there are successful platoon houses overseas and there are times when the officers and men share the same food and living quarters, especially on deployments in Afghanistan.  Lead from the front, yes.  Never ask the troops to do what you are unwilling to do, great.  But not every officer or NCO follows these principles, as you should well know.  If its true in your unit, fantastic, but these concepts are often taught but not followed by every single military member.   

There are also social walls between ranks that transcend operations, ones which you are are blind to if you do not believe they exist.  There are still rules against fraternization between the ranks, still rules on who is allowed to enter an officers mess or an NCO mess.  These rules are taught and enforced.  This creates and enforces barriers between ranks that seem to pretend dont exist. 

Plus you missed the entire point.  Army units function on the principle of acting as a unit. This is critical to mission and operational success.  Air force units function differently, in that although they function as a unit there is a lot more individual thinking and less team-orientated thinking.  

In closing, I have had disagreements with you before.  Previously you were right to condemn some of my comments, but not this time. The military does not function around your perception of events or structure.  No system is perfect.  There is the idea and then there is the actuality.  And unless you have ever worked with both army and air force, then you are the one who is out of his/her lane. Blindness to actuality does not make your opinion supreme or expert. 

And in response to your other insults, my deployment areas include all Canadian provinces except PEI; US states of Alaska, Hawaii, Washington, California, Florida and District of Columbia; and foreign deployments include multiple tours to Europe, Middle East and Central America - so KMA, pal.


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## Journeyman (12 Sep 2006)

I was merely responding to a post where the poster has no idea of the topic - - not an uncommon occurrence. This may have been perceived as over-reacting because when one is the object of such deserved ridicule, the response cannot help but tend towards _ad hominem_. Désolé

Now, to the point that you believe I missed. I’d just as soon not get bogged down in discussing research methodology, but in speaking broadly of service cultures, is it not best for clarity to focus upon those that most exemplify that culture in order to more easily understand it? That way, you remove the middle-ground of purple people, who do the same job regardless of their uniform colour. For discussion purposes, let us pick Combat Arms for the army and Pilots for the air force.1 

Getting back to your initial comment, based on no acknowledged experience, that army leaders are isolated lest they lose the respect of their subordinates. From experience, you are wrong. Infantry leaders spend a significant amount of time with their troops. The respect factor, as noted, is individual; like on this site, some people earn it, some do not. Perhaps one may benefit from browsing through the work of Ross Pigeau and Carol McCann (two Canadian defence scientists) on their Command, Authority, Responsibility model. Google is your friend.

In response, however, you bring up the fact that regulations exist on who can enter which Messes. You’ve lost me. Those rules are in place on both flying bases and army bases - - contradicting whatever logical point you were trying to make about air and land leadership segregation.

As for individual versus team thinking, are you suggesting that pilots are free to fly whatever flight route/altitude appeals to them? Combat air packages are merely _ad hoc _ groupings of individuals? Or are you suggesting that there is little scope for individual thought in the recent infantry section-level firefights, which have been documented very well here? Again, your argument and/or your justifying examples escape me.

Finally, thank you for confirming, via your “posting sheet,” that you indeed have no operational experience/deployments to justify speaking on behalf of soldiers. Now, even though I wore an air ops capbadge for eight years…as full-wing-type aircrew…. within three different flying squadrons, I don’t claim to be speaking for, or on behalf of, anyone in the airforce. My perspective here is merely that of a from-the-ranks infantry Captain. Notwithstanding this operational airforce experience I suspect I’m closer to my lane than are you.

------------------------------
1. NOTE: I am in no way denigrating the pride in service of those purple trades. And yes, there are others who are solidly army and airforce beyond those parameters (eg – EME tank maintainers and air engine techs). Their opinions may add to the discussion but potentially cloud the issues. For example, how much credibility would you give to someone who’s spent most of his career changing powerpacks on a Leopard, when the question involves comparing Flight Safety to Range Safety? The maintainer has at least been in Gagetown, Pet, or Wainwright and been on the range subject to Range Safety Orders and procedures every year. His expertise on flight ops - - not so much. Similarly, I suggest that a person who’s commanded field troops during an operational deployment, or has been a combat troop during that deployment, (vice sitting in a multinational office), has more credibility when discussing army culture, than someone who has apparently spent more than half of their career on an airforce base.


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## Zoomie (12 Sep 2006)

Those sugar laden snacks are called BMS (Between Meal Supplements).

The rest of this conversation is beyond reproach - the two of you should go to your corners and wait for the bell.


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## paracowboy (12 Sep 2006)

Recon_Guardsman said:
			
		

> Im seriously considering being a pilot under the ROTP


then go for it. 


This thread is locked.


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## Centurian1985 (13 Sep 2006)

This is likely to get me introuble, but I object to being denied the chance to counter allegations and belittling inuendo posted by another forum member:

Continued from: Military Culture

Now that we are back on track to the original question, I’ll restate my opinion, based on my own experience and observation. 

The original question was: “I had heard that the culture in the Army is very different than that of the Air Force, and I was wondering if anyone had any info on this that could help clear that up for me.”

Definition of culture:   Those patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population  (from answers.com) Basically it refers to the standard of behaviour that a group of people accepts as normal and expects all of its members to behave in accordance with.  As a note, behaviors are not 100% set for the entire population of the group.  There will always be differences in individual actions and behaviors between group members.  We’re not robots.    

While there is a cultural difference in behaviour between CF members and the general Canadian population, there are also a number of subcultures present, exhibited by elements, trades, and individual units.  Thus, there are significant cultural differences between the Army and Air Force.  In general, I believe that Army members operate on a group mentality, while Air Force members operate on an individual mentality.  

This is not true 100% of the time.  There are times when Army soldiers in the field exercise their initiative on the battlefield or in individual taskings.  However, in the remainder of their time they train together, eat together, live together.  It also requires strict adherence to rules and regulations, which are essential to battlefield discipline, esprit de corps, and the survival of the unit as a whole.  

Is this a bad thing? No, it is a necessity as part of the occupation of being a soldier, and without it there would be a noticeable loss in unit cohesion. 

As I also stated, the Air Force members operate more independently.  Also not 100% true.  There are times during missions and on operations when members act as units and groups but not with the level of unit work and esprit de corps that you see in the infantry.   For the most part, members act on individual assignments that help complete the overall objective.  

Is this a bad thing? No, it is also a result of occupations related to the Air Force, where different groups often work on different schedules in support of flight crews who complete the missions.  They would without a doubt have significant problems if they ever had to do a patrol or conduct a firefight, but then that’s not their job unless the base is attacked. 

Here are other observations about how the two arms differ:    

			Air Force 			Army
Dress and deportment	                Good Standard		Highest Standard
Adherence to rules	                Good Standard		Highest standard
Use of technology		High level 			Formerly Low level, now Moderate
Technology training	                High level 			Formerly Low level, now Moderate
Personal Weapon Skills	Low Standard, improving  	Highest standard
Physical training		Low to high (occupation-related) Highest standard
Physical threats		Low to high (occupation-related) 	High since 1992 
Accommodations during travel    	Ranges from tents to hotels        	Usually tents or barracks
Fieldcraft			Low Standard		Highest standard

As Loachman pointed out, its not entirely true for the entire air force, in particular Tac Hel which has more similarity to Army standards. 

Recon Guardsman, then comments “I guess when I refer to culture, Im more thinking along the lines of... PT (thank you for answering, btw), c*ck level on courses, free time, formality/informality in the work place, etc”

In that regard, the Air Force units are less formal in general, than Army units.  
In the Army you salute an officer (in either respect or in recognition of their commission) while there is less saluting in the Air Force (its not accepted as less, I don’t approve of it, it is just not enforced as much so many members are lax about it).  At an Army unit you may salute even inside buildings and come to attention and request permission to enter rooms.  The Air Force is more casual, frowning on saluting inside buildings, and knocking before asking permission to enter is sufficient.  You can even walk around the HQ with a coffee in your hand! 

Next as rmacqueen states “there is also a more familial feel to the Air Force.  Enforcement of rank after work is less important with officers and NCM's intermingling and first names being used.  This is completely understandable as, unlike the army, the aircrew put their lives in the hands of the ground crew.  An engine malfunction at 10,000 feet is a lot different than a LAV breaking down.  Another side of that is there tends to be a lot more respect amongst the various trades within a squadron right down to the non-air trades like Log and Admin.”

I would agree, but have some reservations.  Some units I worked with did this and others did not.  Aircrews on Hercs and CP-140s mostly stuck together regardless of rank (especially crews who worked together for long periods), and use of nicknames and even first names was common after hours.   Even many groundcrews were relatively informal on the job between cpl’s/mcpl’s and sergeants.  Ditto on the respect, each occupation respected the other, both in and out of work.  However, just as many units, Tac Hel for example, were more formal in their relations, even off the job.  

Cp140 tech presents a great example of a typical unit. 

Skipping down, Journeyman presents a brilliant piece of rebuttal to my previous comments.  I didn’t realize he was a master of rhetoric, obfuscation and innuendo.

But this is an excellent example of the difference between an Army and Air Force mentality.  Representing the viewpoint of a soldier who spent a lot of time serving with Air Force units, I presented some personal observations and conclusions I made based on years of service.  Journeyman, representing the Army mentality perceives that his arm of service has been maligned.  Instead of asking for clarification or countering with an opposing viewpoint, he prefers to take the role of direct attack, dismantling general principles and comments into small easy to attack pieces and attempting to assassinate credibility.  His post is littered with veiled references to implications and accusations of lack of knowledge, lack of inexperience, incompetent compilation of information, and even a bit of Latin and French for that professional ‘piece de resistance’.   

Most of his comments are based on his claim that I have posted no information on my past units, deployment areas and times, or operations conducted.  This is true.  I don’t need to stroke my ego and a lot of that information is not for public knowledge, plus it would also act to identify myself to persons who I would prefer not to be personally identified to.  What he declines to mention is that during a previous ‘disagreement’ we had, he also demanded this information and when I offered to provide it, he blow me off and stated he had no interest in what my experience was.  I do not intend to offer a second opportunity.  I will only state that, no, I have not led troops in Afghanistan, but this does not mean I don’t know what culture means and how it effects groups of soldiers and airmen. 

At the same time, implying that I know nothing on the subject, implies that he does know about the subject.  However, although he quotes a couple of research references, he does not state why is he more of a subject matter expert.  If I am wrong, what makes him right?

We disagree over whether “army leaders are isolated lest they lose the respect of their subordinates”.  This is my opinion.  He has his.  

He also states that “Infantry leaders spend a significant amount of time with their troops”.  Excellent, I commend them.  Its a rehash. Except the focus on spending time with troops and living with troops during deployments does not negate the fact that once they are back in Canada they fall back into the pattern of ‘separated classes of employees’.  As a result, this is not a ‘standard of culture’ but an exception caused by environmental and occupational circumstances.  Its not about whether they want to or not, its about adapting back to the culture they came from.  I personally hope that the trends identified by Journeyman from our men and women in Afghanistan would become the new standard, but as of 2003, it was not (the last time I worked with an army unit).  

There is a reference to two Defence scientists.  I’m sure their work is informative.  However, the original poster did not ask what research is available; the poster could have done their own research on the net.  ReconGuardsman asked for the opinions of Army.ca members on this forum.  However, if you want to put out information on specific SMEs, then I would recommend reading up on Douglas McGregor and his X and Y Manager theory.  Other notable authors would include, Eli Cohen (The Leadership Engine), Stephen R. Covey (Principle-Centered leadership) and Jim Clemmer (The Leaders Digest) all of whom are internationally reknowned experts on leadership, organizational behaviour, and cultural behaviour, and whose concepts are the basis for almost every modern course on leadership and behaviour. 

The point was brought up about messes only to counter your point about officers living and eating with their troops.  It demonstrates that although leaders at platoon houses do eat with their troops, they generally do not once they are at a mess in Canada.  Even in places where messes are combined, due to logistic and administrative reductions and consolidation of resources, the area for officers is still segregated from the rest of the CF members.  As of 2004, while they were free to eat with the troops, it was frowned upon if they were in uniform.  True, this trend is changing, but separation is still the standard of CF culture. 

In reference to aircrews, of course there is coordination and standards of operation.  We couldn’t conduct missions without them.  However, we are talking about general culture here.  Of course there are exceptions to every generalization, no rule is 100% true.  For example, back to the Army, there is always room for individuality when the conditions require it.  But once the firefight is over, the group reforms, they do a re-org, there is a head count; options are discussed not for the actions of individuals but what the entire group will do next.  Pilots on the other hand, will gather together from many different areas into attack packages, but once the attack is done, they separate and make their own way home in 2 and 4s back to their home bases using separate routes and timings.  

Finally, his last comment demonstrates another example of the cultural differences we represent.  I don’t claim to be speaking for, or on behalf of, anyone.   The preceding are my words, my thoughts, my interpretations.  His on the other hand appears is a defense of the Army in general, even though none is required.  He sees this as an attack on the Army when its not, its only an observation that the culture of the Air Force is more individual-orientated while the culture of the Army is more group-orientated.


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## aesop081 (13 Sep 2006)

I can see that you have NEVER spent a single minute on a Maritime Patrol crew.  We salute our officers here.  I call my officers "sir" when we are not on the plane.  When we are not flying, we are drinking and sightseeing  and doing stuff as a crew.  When we have a multi-crew detachemnt we rarely see the other crews bacuse of the flying schedules but when we are all on the ground, you always find us near a BBQ with beer in hand....as a group.  It may usualy be less formal than a similar army gathering, but nonetheless, you are way off base.


"adherance to rules: good standard".......again you are out of your lane.  Our buisness is driven by rules.  We live by those rules as our safety and the safety of those multi-million dollar airplanes depends on it.  We dont refer to the B-GA-100 as the "bible" for nothing. Shall i mention CF flying orders, Wing and squadron flying orders, armemnt safety orders for CF aircraft..........I've live on both sides of this coin......our adherance to rules and regs is second to none.

You may have worked on an air force bases...but 19 wing int is not the AF......get that in your head right now.


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## Journeyman (13 Sep 2006)

The original post was locked by the mods for a reason. I concur.


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## Centurian1985 (13 Sep 2006)

Then that would be different from the time I spent with CP-140's; 1993-1997, deployments to Alaska, Hawaii, driftnet patrols and coastal patrols.  Other units worked with include Tac Hel Griffons from 1 Wing Kingston in 1999 and 2002, CF-18s from Cold Lake and 409/421 in Germany, and Herc Crews from Winnipeg.  

If Im way off base from your crew, then all I can do is apologize, but those are the observations I made.  Not all crews worked well together and it can be observed.


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## aesop081 (13 Sep 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Then that would be different from the time I spent with CP-140's; 1993-1997, deployments to Alaska, Hawaii, driftnet patrols and coastal patrols.  Other units worked with include Tac Hel Griffons from 1 Wing Kingston in 1999 and 2002, CF-18s from Cold Lake and 409/421 in Germany, and Herc Crews from Winnipeg.
> 
> If Im way off base from your crew, then all I can do is apologize, but those are the observations I made.  Not all crews worked well together and it can be observed.



I dont care of you have been a* passenger * on the 140 once or twice....YOU WERE NEVER A CREWMEMBER !!!

I have worked in tac hel as well while i was waiting for nav school, so my frame of reference is pretty damned good.

"observations"  :


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Sep 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> This is likely to get me introuble,



You're right, next time don't restart a locked topic, with a long winded diatribe, just because you didn't get the last word. I equate that to trolling, and you'll get whacked for it. No more freebies for you.

While we're on the subject of your flying career, perhaps you can explain why the underserviced and understaffed army Int trade, left you with the AF for 15 years. If it was one of those 'if I tell you, I'll have to kill you'  things, don't bother explaining. 

Also have to agree with cdnaviator. I was AF for a time, and logged lots of hours, on lots of a/c, but I was never a crewmember.


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## Zoomie (13 Sep 2006)

Excellent rebuttal Centurion!

Most of your points are valid and I can relate.  

You will find that the separation of NCM-Officers exists between aircrew and non-aircrew.  AVN/AVS techs never call me by my first name - I enjoy the option of choosing their first name or rank.  FE's and SARTechs always call me by my first name or crew position (while flying).  The only exception to this rule would be when the Chief is about.  Major's and above are almost always called Sir or "Maj".

Eating messes are segregated still in Winnipeg, but that is probably just because of the CAD's proximity.

In a non-crew setting, I have pretty much no authority over any NCMs.  They have MWOs that are at the apex of their Chain.  The SARTechs are in a different world of their own, we only meet on the back ramp of the aircraft just before we go flying.

I am sure that your adherence to rules statement was directed more towards non-B-GA/flying orders (eg Dress Regs, Drill manual, etc).

Aircrew tend to stay together when deployed - I think it is a pack mentality phenomena.  It can be good at times, but some times it gets annoying.

As a final note; speaking from experience, the shift from green to blue is a learning experience.  You will never quite lose that "greenish appearance".  Many years down the road you will say or do something that will cause your peers to accuse you of being "too army".  I take these accusations as praise, as I truly believe that my experiences as an army NCM have molded me into a far better junior AF Officer than I could have been straight off the street.


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## scoutfinch (13 Sep 2006)

Centurian,

Unless you were attempting to score points with the crowd, don't you think your message should be sent via PM?

With all due respect, this thread should be locked and the issue sorted out behind closed doors.


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## mdh (13 Sep 2006)

> Excellent rebuttal Centurion!
> 
> Most of your points are valid and I can relate.



I agree; an interesting discussion; more please,


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## Garry (13 Sep 2006)

Since we're sharing experience and lessons learned, here's my expereince: 14 years Army (RCD) with three years in Tac Hel (Cat A-1 Observer) followed by 14 years Air Force (Air Traffic Control). I served as an Officer and NCO. 

Here's what I learned: Both Army and Air Force are extremely competant and pride themselves on their professionalism...and with good reason. Both organisations do more with less, bi7ch about it over a beer at the Mess, and carry on the next day. 

I also learned that leadership by sarcasm has been proven over and over to fail. 

Get a grip.

Cheers-Garry


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## Elwood (13 Sep 2006)

Centurian1985.... those are good things to know for recruits to the CF wanting to know the difference between Army and Air Force. Thanks.


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