# Return of the Army Forage Cap?



## Old Naval Guard

I was looking at pictures of the recent speech to the throne. The GG Honour Guard, mostly Militia had quite a few Forage Caps in the Guard. While understanding these where regimental Items purchased at Nonpublic expense, the officer commanding the guard looked like he was wearing a CF Forage cap. It could have been a regimental service cap, but it didn't look like it . Are Army/CF DEU Service Caps coming back if only for Officer's? Just curious Thanks in advance ONG


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## 211RadOp

I may be wrong, but I believe only Foot Guards units still wear the Forage Cap (GGFG, CGG, etc.)

Chapter 6 Art 4b of CFP 265



> Regiments of Foot Guards. Customary,
> approved, guards-pattern undress forage
> caps (see Chapter 5, sub-sub-paragraph
> 13.f.(3)) are authorized for wear as optional
> items by all ranks of these regiments with
> ceremonial, mess and service orders of
> dress, in lieu of other authorized
> headdress.




Edit to correct an error and add quote


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## Rheostatic

Do you have a link to the photos?

E: Found one: http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/0603throne3.jpg
That does appear to be a GGFG member.


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## OldSolduer

We, as in the Army in general, have not worn those stupid caps in years. Lets not give the good idea fairy any ammo shall we? 

The Armoured Corps never wore them, as far as I know, and I personally abhorred it, as do many of my peers.


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## Fishbone Jones

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We, as in the Army in general, have not worn those stupid caps in years. Lets not give the good idea fairy any ammo shall we?
> 
> The Armoured Corps never wore them, as far as I know, and I personally abhorred it, as do many of my peers.



Actually Jim, there was a very, very short span, in the 70's when we wore it with our CF Greens. Then the green beret, again, only with Greens. Then someone wised up and said 'No more'. Back to the black beret for all dress, and we havn't looked back. I think the debacle lasted about a year or two. We actually wore that silly fur wedge thingy once or twice with our greatcoats also. I remember the RSM coming out, on parade, saying we looked like a bunch of Russians and that was the end of that hat for us too.


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## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> Actually Jim, there was a very, very short span, in the 70's when we wore it with our CF Greens. Then the green beret, again, only with Greens. Then someone wised up and said 'No more'. Back to the black beret for all dress, and we havn't looked back. I think the debacle lasted about a year or two. We actually wore that silly fur wedge thingy once or twice with our greatcoats also. I remember the RSM coming out, on parade, saying we looked like a bunch of Russians and that was the end of that hat for us too.



I remember the fur hat. Our CO in ordered us to wear it for the winter. Clothing stores was busy with all the troops purchasing them.


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## dapaterson

Those in the photo are from the Governor General's Foot Guards (GGFG).  They wear the forage cap.  And in this instance I fully support their desire to be unique and different from all others.  Because I don't want to wear the damned thing.


Edit to add:  The officer is from the GGFG; the two troops are from the Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG).  My point still stands...


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## brihard

More specifically, the organization on parade that day was, in its entirety, the Ceremonial Guard. In terms of regimental identity, CG wears the dress of either the GGFG or the CGG, and members wearing ceremonials will wear the uniform of one of those two regiments regardless of the member's home unit. For that particular parade the Public Duties company was in DEU because they're still getting fitted for ceremonial (scarlet) uniforms in preparation for the public duties season. The practice of making all troops wear GGFG or CGG DEU in lieu of their own regiment/trade/branch/element stopped a few years ago.

Ceremonial Guard. You will never find a more wretched hive of funny looking hats. We must be cautious.


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## my72jeep

In my humble opinion Forage Caps are for Generals, police officers, African Dictators and some self absorbed Ocdt's. But thats me


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## brihard

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In my humble opinion Forage Caps are for Generals, police officers, African Dictators and some self absorbed Ocdt's. But thats me



They also convey a certain gravitas that would otherwise be unachievable whilst explaining one's little scheme of marching up an' down the square.  ;D


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## Retired AF Guy

my72jeep said:
			
		

> In my humble opinion Forage Caps are for Generals, police officers, African Dictators and some self absorbed Ocdt's.



And troopies standing out on the parade square when its raining (especially if you're wearing glasses) or when looking into the sun.


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## medicineman

My forage cap is a pile of ashes somewhere...and whoever suggests we go back to it through out the Army should have their lips sutured shut and fingies crazy glued into their fists AND then to their keyboards, so they can't talk or type.  Their eyes should be glued open and a screen saver stating "FORAGE CAPS BAD - ME BADDER" should be placed on continuous scroll through until they get the hint.

But I'm not bitter.

MM


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## OldSolduer

medicineman said:
			
		

> My forage cap is a pile of ashes somewhere...and whoever suggests we go back to it through out the Army should have their lips sutured shut and fingies crazy glued into their fists AND then to their keyboards, so they can't talk or type.  Their eyes should be glued open and a screen saver stating "FORAGE CAPS BAD - ME BADDER" should be placed on continuous scroll through until they get the hint.
> 
> But I'm not bitter.
> 
> MM



I concur. Evil caps...... >


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## mariomike

Not into the debate, but I fondly remember wearing this one a long time ago:
http://rcasc.com.p8.hostingprod.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/RCASC_ORs_1960_forage_cap.11261909_std.jpg


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## OldSolduer

I say we have the mods delete this thread in its entirety, and we shall NOT speak the evil words "forage cap"  for  least three years.....not one , not four but three.
Or we convene a Spanish Inquistion.......


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## aesop081

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I say we have the mods delete this thread in its entirety, and we shall NOT speak the evil words "forage cap"  for  least three years.....not one , not four but three.
> Or we convene a Spanish Inquistion.......



I agree with your ban idea but i think we should do the inquisition anyways.............


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## medicineman

I'll second that - I'm sure there is a Jimmy Cox wannabe somewhere thinking it's a GREAT IDEA to bring that abomination back into routine use with our service dress.  I'll also bet that this freak of nature is reading this and drooling over a potential "Leading Change" bubble on the far right...Hey, Freak of Nature, if you're reading this, read backwards and take heed - I'm watching you  :threat:.

MM


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## OldSolduer

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I agree with your ban idea but i think we should do the inquisition anyways.............



Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! Or maybe the forage cap insquistion....... >


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## marshall sl

I say bring them back!!


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## medicineman

marshall sl said:
			
		

> I say bring them back!!



BURN THE WITCH!!!!


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## brihard

medicineman said:
			
		

> BURN THE WITCH!!!!



'Ow do you know she's a witch?


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## JMesh

Brihard said:
			
		

> 'Ow do you know she's a witch?


She turned me into newt! ;D



			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I say we have the mods delete this thread in its entirety, and we shall NOT speak the evil words "forage cap"  for  least three years.....not one , not four but three.
> Or we convene a Spanish Inquistion.......



So you're suggesting a paraphrase of the Book of Armaments?  ;D

"First shalt thou [delete this thread in its entirety], then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then [speaketh thou the words 'forage cap' towards thy foe, the speaking of which causeth a return of ill-causing desires to army personnel everywhere.]" Amen.  >

As far as the forage cap goes, I agree with leaving it to the navy or specific regiments. Specific regiments use different ones which actually look quite sharp and the forage cap fits well with the naval uniform, but the CF standard army and air caps look(ed) rather atrocious IMO.


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## marshall sl

I'n not a she either!!! Highlander yes but not a woman


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## medicineman

Then ye have no say - ewe geet to weer a Balmoral or Glengarry ye horrible weee man  >.

MM


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## marshall sl

But I wear one for my Dress uniform for work.


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## medicineman

Do tell what Highland Regt wears a forage cap - this would be a new thing to me?


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## marshall sl

I am a former Seaforth, my day job is the Correctional Service of Canada


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## medicineman

Thought screws wore ball caps to work?


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## Kat Stevens

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Those in the photo are from the Governor General's Foot Guards (GGFG).  They wear the forage cap.  And in this instance I fully support their desire to be unique and different from all others.  Because I don't want to wear the damned thing.
> 
> 
> Edit to add:  The officer is from the GGFG; the two troops are from the Canadian Grenadier Guards (CGG).  My point still stands...



Those are also not CF green bus driver caps, they're Guardsmans caps, quite a different animal, old boy.


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## mariomike

Corrections Canada:
http://www.canadiancorrections.com/mandressuniform2.jpg

Very similar to Fire and EMS.


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## marshall sl

Up until 1992 we wore them daily, now it's just for  dress uniforms


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## medicineman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Corrections Canada:
> http://www.canadiancorrections.com/mandressuniform2.jpg
> 
> Very similar to Fire and EMS.



The only time I've seen paramedics wearing their forage caps is in a dress uniform.  Fire, usually the same.  Cops - yes, but I notice even the RCMP and some of the city cops around here don't wear them as often as they used to.

Marshall - sorry to hear that   >.  

MM


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## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> The only time I've seen paramedics wearing their forage caps is in a dress uniform.



Very true, MM. You never wear a dress uniform on the job. Mine just hung in the closet.


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## Staff Weenie

The Russians have a purpose for them - it allows you to figure out rank at a great distance - the bigger the forage cap, the higher the rank. Kind of like hats in the Vatican.....

I've always wondered - just what do they put inside them? Is there enough surface area for them to get airborne in high winds? Is that where the kept their melmac plate, cup and KFS?


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## ArmyRick

Good dress and high standard of personal appearance has been shown to increase morale. there for effective immediately forge caps will be re-instated as dress. Also to "boost the morale" of the troops, we are effectively bringing back the tan DEUs as well. We must look much tidier in garrison, so we shall also bring back the garrison dress with "honkin" huge boots. 

A typical day may go as such
0630 Arrive work PT Strip
0800 First parade at work Garrisson dress (SEction comd inspect first, followed by PL WO and finally CSM)
0900 Next timing, vehicle and weapons maintenance, dress CAD PAT
1100 Prepare for lunch, garrisson dress (Can't go to lunch looking like field troops)
1300 CO parade. DEU 
1430 Back to work, garrisson dress
1530 Prepare for dismissal parade (Section comd inspect, PL WO inspect, CSM inspect)
1630 Actual dismissal parade

Oh wait, this looks like a REALLY gay idea, right? IMO, it starts with "brilliant"  : ideas like bring back the forge cap. No, no, no!

Or we can continue to move forward and address issues that really matter in the modern CF!


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## OldSolduer

We are cursed. We don't learn from our mistakes as an institution. Forage caps......Garrison Dress, Work Dress, just to name a few. 

Army Rick, recall the days of the 0530 hrs inspections? I REALLY thought that was a morale booster!


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## Fishbone Jones

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We are cursed. We don't learn from our mistakes as an institution. Forage caps......Garrison Dress, Work Dress, just to name a few.
> 
> Army Rick, recall the days of the 0530 hrs inspections? I REALLY thought that was a morale booster!



I also recall WAAAYYYY too many days that went almost the way Army Rick's example went :. The only change being the type of dress due to the year(s) it was happening.


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## Danjanou

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'll second that - I'm sure there is a Jimmy Cox wannabe somewhere thinking it's a GREAT IDEA to bring that abomination back into routine use with our service dress.  I'll also bet that this freak of nature is reading this and drooling over a potential "Leading Change" bubble on the far right...Hey, Freak of Nature, if you're reading this, read backwards and take heed - I'm watching you  :threat:.
> 
> MM



Ack you said the Jiiiiiimmmmmeeeeee word, that's another poor kittie done in.


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## Staff Weenie

Focus on real issues? Heresy! Cardinal Fang, fetch out the Comfy Chair!

If that doesn't work, we will poke you with the soft cushions....


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## OldSolduer

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> Focus on real issues? Heresy! Cardinal Fang, fetch out the Comfy Chair!
> 
> If that doesn't work, we will poke you with the soft cushions....



Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!

Our chief weapon is surprise and fear...two two weapons, surprise, fear and an almost fanatical dedication to the Forage Cap....and nice camoflage garrison jackets.... ;D >


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## Journeyman

marshall sl said:
			
		

> I say bring them back!!


And that's how the Good Idea Fairy would work. 

The troops get stuck with the dumb idea (Blackadder, Baldrick, and George wearing forage cap), while the HQ responsible for said dumb idea do not (Darling and Melchett, _sans chapeaux_).

       ;D


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## dapaterson

Journeyman said:
			
		

> And that's how the Good Idea Fairy would work.
> 
> The troops get stuck with the dumb idea (Blackadder, Baldrick, and George wearing forage cap), while the HQ responsible for said dumb idea do not (Darling and Melchett, _sans chapeaux_).
> 
> ;D



I fully agree that those responsible for such an initiative should be marched around sans headdress.


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## Staff Weenie

Ah, but Baldrick could get his revenge just serving up his famed coffee to the Good Idea Fairy....


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## Oldgateboatdriver

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I fully agree that those responsible for such an initiative should be marched around sans headdress.



Better yet:

Bring em in front of a whole parade (in berets, thank you): Remove their headdress, strip ranks, strip regimental badges, strip decorations, all as the charge of "filing in the "lead change" box incorrectly" is read,  then about turn them and quick march them off to the order "march out the guilty bastard".

Oh, wait! Dang, we can't do that anymore because of the Trudeau Charter.


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## George Wallace

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We are cursed. We don't learn from our mistakes as an institution. Forage caps......Garrison Dress, Work Dress, just to name a few.
> 
> Army Rick, recall the days of the 0530 hrs inspections? I REALLY thought that was a morale booster!



Morale?  Boost?  Time for a "Change Parade".    >


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## medicineman

Why don't we just wear Baseball caps in all orders of dress - I look cool doing it in CADPAT down here at Shang ri La sometimes (I'd NEVER leave the immediate confines of the unit like that BTW, just since my dolphins aren't cool enough to wear my coveralls as walking out dress, I wear combats on occasions when I might leave).  Wonder how much brain matter would fly out of the Fleet Chief's ears and nose if I showed up on a 3B or 3A/1A parade with my unit ball cap on instead of my beret...now THAT sounds like a good idea  ;D.

MM


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## Pusser

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I remember the fur hat. Our CO in ordered us to wear it for the winter. Clothing stores was busy with all the troops purchasing them.



This hat is properly called an "astrakhan," after the Astrakhan region of Russia where it first appeared.  Astrakhan is famous for its fleeces (from which the hat is properly made).  They were actually quite fashionable in some circles (notably amongst academics) in the 60s and 70s (my father, an academic, used to wear one).  RMC cadets still wear them in winter and call them "astro-cans."  I believe they tend to think it's a joke and don't realize its actually a proper name for this type of hat.

I've never liked it and thought it looked foolish.  The CF version did, however make a good tea cozy and a decent duster.   I always thought it was interesting that the men got a fake fur astrakhan, while the women were issued with a real muskrat hat - looked like a furry combat helmet with a ridiculous integral scarf.  The yukon hat is a HUGE improvement.


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## Kat Stevens

hat tangent;  The best hat we were ever issued was the work dress green winter hat, the hybrid trapper/ball cap dealy. Anyone else remember it?  never wore it in uniform, but it was a good winter hat.


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## Pusser

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> hat tangent;  The best hat we were ever issued was the work dress green winter hat, the hybrid trapper/ball cap dealy. Anyone else remember it?  never wore it in uniform, but it was a good winter hat.



I knew one guy who wore one.  Other than that, I only ever saw them in surplus stores.  I was certainly never issued one.


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## OldSolduer

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> hat tangent;  The best hat we were ever issued was the work dress green winter hat, the hybrid trapper/ball cap dealy. Anyone else remember it?  never wore it in uniform, but it was a good winter hat.



Yes, I wemember. I wanted to go hunting wabbits........ ;D


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## my72jeep

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> hat tangent;  The best hat we were ever issued was the work dress green winter hat, the hybrid trapper/ball cap dealy. Anyone else remember it?  never wore it in uniform, but it was a good winter hat.
> [/quote/]
> Didn't they stop issuing it in the 70's?


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## Kat Stevens

I was issued one in '80.


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## Blackadder1916

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> hat tangent;  The best hat we were ever issued was the work dress green winter hat, the hybrid trapper/ball cap dealy. Anyone else remember it?  never wore it in uniform, but it was a good winter hat.



Elmer Fudd jokes aside, it was a good piece of kit for the time.  On my TQ3 course, we wore it (and with the flaps down) often during the winter.  That year, the weather was miserable (more than usual) in Borden and marching to/from the school and barracks without ear protection would probably have resulted in some frostbite.  We were also bundled up in horse blankets greatcoats.  The piece of issued headwear that I wore the least was the "baseball cap" (well maybe the same amount as the Hat, Fur, Stupid - teacozy, for the use of) .  It was phasing out when I went through Cornwallis; I was issued one but we never wore it there.  The only time I ever wore it was, years later, with flying kit while doing an airevac.


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## Old Sweat

When the CF Green first came into use, we were issued both the forage hat and the tea cozy. We also wore berets with combat in lieu of the combat hat, aka the Robin Hood hat. The beret was also worn with work dress and could be worn with the green suit. About 1972 some fool convinced Jadex to ban the beret for wear with Greens for the regular force, while making it the only approved head dress for the reserves. One of the lines used was that this would call into use the well known ingenuity of the Canadian service member. This resulted in all sorts of forage caps being mangled when travelling on TD. Eventually, maybe after I retired, the forage cap was sent wherever old unwanted bits of uniform go, and I don't mean the barrack box with my Canadian army service number stencilled on it in our garage along with my bush hat, 51 pattern web belt and mess tin carrier and the like.


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## eurowing

QL3 Shilo in early 76. "Get rid of that snib (Cap, Forage) ! We'll get one from supply if you need one for your coffin!" 

Ubique


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## OldSolduer

Let's hope the good idea fairies are sleeping as we type our thoughts out. All we need is some bright young whiz kid to convince others we need to re-adopt a useless peice of headgear.


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## Old Sweat

eurowing said:
			
		

> QL3 Shilo in early 76. "Get rid of that snib (Cap, Forage) ! We'll get one from supply if you need one for your coffin!"
> 
> Ubique


Side issue: I have not heard "snib" used for decades. It used to be in common use in 4 RCHA for just about anything. For example, "let's go to the canteen for a couple of snibs" or "go on over to the BQ and get some snibs so we can scrim this cam net."


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## OldSolduer

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Side issue: I have not heard "snib" used for decades. It used to be in common use in 4 RCHA for just about anything. For example, "let's go to the canteen for a couple of snibs" or "go on over to the BQ and get some snibs so we can scrim this cam net."


Snib - is that like a thing a ma dooey? or a whatchamacallit?

Or maybe Harveykooby?


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## mariomike

Six more pages, and a poll:
Topic: "Bring Back the army Forage / Peak Caps ... ?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34700.0

Lots more, if interested:
http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=site%3Aarmy.ca+&btnG=Search#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=site:army.ca+forage&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=a91b69f6bd0a7737&biw=1360&bih=594


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## medicineman

Mario - GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

That is all I have to say about that.

MM


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## Old Sweat

Yeah, it's one snib you guys don't need. So obviously somebody with way more enthusiasm than common sense will start a drive to bring it back, along with pips and crowns. Ooops, another kitten just keeled over.


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## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's one snib you guys don't need. So obviously somebody with way more enthusiasm than common sense will start a drive to bring it back, along with pips and crowns. Ooops, another kitten just keeled over.


19th Alberta Dragoons, fall - IN!


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## Rheostatic

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> --- Quote from: eurowing on Today at 14:34:18 ---QL3 Shilo in early 76. "Get rid of that snib (Cap, Forage) ! We'll get one from supply if you need one for your coffin!"
> 
> Ubique
> 
> --- End quote ---
> Side issue: I have not heard "snib" used for decades. It used to be in common use in 4 RCHA for just about anything. For example, "let's go to the canteen for a couple of snibs" or "go on over to the BQ and get some snibs so we can scrim this cam net."


OK, forget the forage cap, I'm bringing back "snibs".


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## mariomike

medicineman said:
			
		

> Mario - GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
> 
> That is all I have to say about that.
> 
> MM



Just joking here, but it's hard to imagine this old soldier minus his:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/wars/Macarthur.jpg


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## OldSolduer

mariomike said:
			
		

> Just joking here, but it's hard to imagine this old soldier minus his:
> http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/wars/Macarthur.jpg



He was American. They deserve to wear the Forge Cap. ;D


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## Pusser

It's been alluded to before, but let me come right out and say it.  If soldiers really don't want forage caps, then perhaps they should start making sure that a good number of you start looking professional in berets.  Before the dogpile starts, you know who I'm talking about.  Many soldiers look professional, but there are more than just a few who wear the same grease-stained threadbare beret with a tattered badge both in the field and on parade.  Maybe the good idea fairies will leave well enough alone when they don't have a reason to impose a particular piece of headgear simply to ensure that soldiers have something clean to wear.  >


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## Journeyman

Pusser said:
			
		

> ....start making sure that a good number of you start looking professional in berets.


OK, OK, berets have _never_ been General Devlin's strong suit


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## Fishbone Jones

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's been alluded to before, but let me come right out and say it.  If soldiers really don't want forage caps, then perhaps they should start making sure that a good number of you start looking professional in berets.  Before the dogpile starts, you know who I'm talking about.  Many soldiers look professional, but there are more than just a few who wear the same grease-stained threadbare beret with a tattered badge both in the field and on parade.  Maybe the good idea fairies will leave well enough alone when they don't have a reason to impose a particular piece of headgear simply to ensure that soldiers have something clean to wear.  >



Ahoy matey, pot this is kettle. 

Not just soldiers. I've seen more than a couple of swabbies that haven't got a clue on how to take care of my beloved black beret, whether it be the condition or the simple shaping and wearing of it.


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## Halifax Tar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ahoy matey, pot this is kettle.
> 
> Not just soldiers. I've seen more than a couple of swabbies that haven't got a clue on how to take care of my beloved black beret, whether it be the condition or the simple shaping and wearing of it.



I knew when Pusser wrote that the recoil would be swift! It is true though, I have seen some nasty pizza cutters in Her Majesty's Dockyard. lol I say Forage Caps for all!  > >


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## dapaterson

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I knew when Pusser wrote that the recoil would be swift! It is true though, I have seen some nasty pizza cutters in Her Majesty's Dockyard. lol I say Forage Caps for all!  > >



Nah.  Ball caps for sailors; old-school robin-hood style bush caps for soldiers, and bareheads, hands in pockets for that other service.

So at least for the air force, no change.


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## krustyrl

Yep...I remember still having to wear the AF blue wedge with Cadpats back in Trenton.  You could almost hear them CPC  folks' teeth just a grindin'.!!


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## Halifax Tar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Nah.  Ball caps for sailors; old-school robin-hood style bush caps for soldiers, and bareheads, hands in pockets for that other service.
> 
> So at least for the air force, no change.



You sir have a deal!  ;D


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## medicineman

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ahoy matey, pot this is kettle.
> 
> Not just soldiers. I've seen more than a couple of swabbies that haven't got a clue on how to take care of my beloved black beret, whether it be the condition or the simple shaping and wearing of it.



Screw their berets - how about their uniforms...should they be able to actually fit into them  ;D.

Discuss.   >

MM


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## dapaterson

medicineman said:
			
		

> Screw their berets - how about their uniforms...should they be able to actually fit into them  ;D.
> 
> Discuss.   >
> 
> MM



Are we discussing the Navy or the Armoured Corps?


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## aesop081

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Yep...I remember still having to wear the AF blue wedge with Cadpats back in Trenton.  You could almost hear them CPC  folks' teeth just a grindin'.!!



You could also hear allot of AF people's teeth grinding too. Thankfully, the wearing of wedge in CADPAT came to a swift end.


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## George Wallace

medicineman said:
			
		

> Screw their berets - how about their uniforms...should they be able to actually fit into them  ;D.
> 
> Discuss.   >
> 
> MM



Of course, in the day, that is one reason we kept the "Sail Makers".


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## dapaterson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Of course, in the day, that is one reason we kept the "Sail Makers".



I recall seeing a Capt in a maternity crew suit in the early 1990s.  There was no question why _*he*_ needed it.


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## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I recall seeing a Capt in a maternity crew suit in the early 1990s.  There was no question why _*he*_ needed it.



Like the Champ would say: " I says PARRDONN?" ;D

I've seen folk like that before.......


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## medicineman

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Are we discussing the Navy or the Armoured Corps?



Touche...but I was talking about the Navy.  I might add, though, the folks I work with fit well into their uniforms...

MM


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## Pusser

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ahoy matey, pot this is kettle.
> 
> Not just soldiers. I've seen more than a couple of swabbies that haven't got a clue on how to take care of my beloved black beret, whether it be the condition or the simple shaping and wearing of it.



Well Kettle, this only supports my point that sailors should not be wearing berets with service dress.  By the way, in the Navy, our berets are navy blue, not black (I don't care what the silly label says- it's the same colour as my tunic; therefore, it is navy BLUE).


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## George Wallace

>

I think you are colour blind.

My beret is BLACK, not Navy Blue or Royal Blue or any other shade of Blue.  Then again, I am not Navy.  As an artilleryman I wore a Royal Blue Beret with red felt backing to the hatbadge, and it too was not Black.  I could easily tell the difference when side by each.  Today's naval personnel, when standing next to a crewman, seem to be wearing the same colour beret.  If you see differently, please let us know.  If not, please don't try to tell the crewman that his beret is any shade of Blue.  The result may not be favourable.


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## Pusser

Don't misunderstand me.  It is well known that the Armour folks wear black berets.  I've never said anything to the contrary.  All I'm saying is that naval berets are navy blue (which is different from the royal blue once worn by the Artillery)


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## Fishbone Jones

Pusser said:
			
		

> Well Kettle, this only supports my point that sailors should not be wearing berets with service dress.  By the way, in the Navy, our berets are navy blue, not black (I don't care what the silly label says- it's the same colour as my tunic; therefore, it is navy BLUE).





			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> Don't misunderstand me.  It is well known that the Armour folks wear black berets.  I've never said anything to the contrary.  All I'm saying is that naval berets are navy blue (which is different from the royal blue once worn by the Artillery)



Actually, they're  not. Please read on 

The berets may well are supposed to be Navy Blue, and you can hold out in defence of the Navy, but they are not blue. They are black. I too remember the days when Arty and RCEME berets were blue and the difference was distinctive.

We know wiki is not the greatest source, however, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_blue



> Military
> In the United States Navy and the Canadian Forces Maritime Command, uniforms which are called navy blue (e.g. Working Blues and Service Dress Blues in the US, and uniforms 1, 1A, 2B, 3, 3A, 3B (winter), 3C in Canada) *are, in actuality, colored black*. Canadian Forces Dress Instructions for naval units and members specify that, " 'navy blue' is a tone of black".[4] (See also Uniforms of the United States Navy and Uniforms of the Canadian Forces).



and from our very own A-AD-265-000/AG-001 (Dress Regs) DEFINITIONS, para 21 ENVIROMENTAL COLOURS: 



> Environmental Colours. Means, for these purposes, the environmental winter service dress colours of navy black, army rifle green, and air force light blue (traditional service colours, used for other applications, are “navy blue” which is a tone of black, army scarlet, and air force light blue). (couleurs del’élément)



Midnight blue, as used in Mess dress, is darker than Navy blue, and near indistinguishable from black. However, the difference is still there and discernable. 

So start taking care of our Armoured Corp black berets properly please ;D



_edit - spelling_


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## Pusser

Sometimes it can be such fun to yank soldiers' chains. ;D

If you were to measure the wavelength of the light reflected off of an armoured soldier's beret and compare it to that of a sailor's beret (this is how colour is actually defined), you would likely come up with the same result (after making allowances for grease, dust and wear  ).  So yes, technically, they are the same colour.  Nevertheless, the soldier's is black and the sailor's is blue.

Ever since the Royal Navy standardized its uniforms in the mid-19th Century, their and (except for the green interlude) our uniforms have been the same colour.  The colour has not changed.  They have always been blue, because we say they are blue, notwithstanding the wavelength of the light reflected off of them.  No sailor would ever wear a black uniform!

The history behind this is simple.  Years ago (more than a century in fact), it was very difficult to attain consistency in blue dyes.  Different batches of material would be slightly different shades and so uniformity would be lost.  The solution to get around this was to make the dye very very dark.  Dark to the point where a soldier (there were no air people then) would probably say it was black.  In this way, consistency was obtained.

Back in the "Green" era, the Naval Officers Association  of Canada sprung for the cost of traditional "blue" uniforms for the Stadacona and Naden Bands.  The results were less than ideal.    Unfortunately, no one told the tailors (they were all custom made) about the reality of "navy blue" and so they made the uniforms out of what the civilian world calls navy blue material.  At inside venues, the uniforms looked great (although sailors don't wear black, they really shouldn't be wearing green).  Alas, outside in the bright sunlight, they turned purple (not so good).  We all got a bit of a chuckle out of that.

Thus in order to ensure our uniforms are blue, we have to dye them so dark that other folks think they are black, but they are blue nonetheless.

This debate reminds me of a similar one that went on for years in the Air Force.  When the RAF was formed in 1918, it was an amalgamation of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service.  A new badge with a "bird" was designed and issued.  For years the debate went on as to what kind of bird it was.  Despite an official description calling it an eagle, the RNAS veterans swore up and down that it was an albatross and you could never convince them differently.


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## dapaterson

Pusser said:
			
		

> They have always been blue, because we say they are blue, notwithstanding the wavelength of the light reflected off of them.



What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"


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## medicineman

Pusser said:
			
		

> No sailor would ever wear a black uniform!



I don't know, seen an awful lot of engineers/hull techs with what likely WERE at one point off blue uniforms, but they're well beyond salvaging any semblance of that now...

MM


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## Pusser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"



So what's your point?


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## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What a great summation of today's Navy: "Reality be damned!  Things are what we say they are, because we say so!  Who let reality intrude into our world?"



Yup. Even when the official dress regs say it's black : I guess everything in their world is blue.....................except the sky


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## CountDC

Good job Pusser, keep those junior elements in line.  

Haven't tried it in a few years but when I ran hot water through my then  new beret the colour that ran out was Blue not Black so unless they have changed the dye they are still actually a very dark Blue - Navy Blue.

and yes DAP you have it right in your last.


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## CountDC

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yup. Even when the official dress regs say it's black : I guess everything in their world is blue.....................except the sky



Most likely written by some army type that didn't know any better.   ;D


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## Journeyman

Pusser said:
			
		

> So what's your point?


I guess the point is you're coming across as a complete fucking idiot....saying "yes, X is the factual truth, but we countinue to spout Y because that's what we're told." 

I *was* going to post that this has become the most retarded thread outside of Recruiting....then I recalled all the pomp and circumstance surrounding the QUOTE senior service's UNQUOTE 100th anniversary -- notwithstanding the inconvenience of several army regiments commemorating 150th anniversaries.

Some of us are OK with reality -- I guess that's the point.

 :


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## Halifax Tar

Pusser said:
			
		

> Sometimes it can be such fun to yank soldiers' chains. ;D/




I think you guys missed the sarcasm and humor in pussers post.

Hence the above...

Anyways Peak Caps/Forage Caps/Service Caps for all!!!!!! Berets are for John Wayne and Parisians!  > > :nod:


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## Fishbone Jones

Yup, their sky isn't blue


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## medicineman

:rofl:


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## Pusser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I guess the point is you're coming across as a complete ******* idiot....saying "yes, X is the factual truth, but we countinue to spout Y because that's what we're told."
> 
> I *was* going to post that this has become the most retarded thread outside of Recruiting....then I recalled all the pomp and circumstance surrounding the QUOTE senior service's UNQUOTE 100th anniversary -- notwithstanding the inconvenience of several army regiments commemorating 150th anniversaries.
> 
> Some of us are OK with reality -- I guess that's the point.
> 
> :



You need to look up, because what I'm saying is obviously going right over your head. :nod:

Reality can be pretty boring sometimes.

As to the "Senior Service" issue:  The Navy is the senior service because it has the longest history of direct service to the Crown.  The Royal Navy was formally established in the 16th Century.  At that point in time, armies were privately raised (i.e by a noble) and usually for a specific purpose.  In fact, there is a long history of specific acts in Britain designed purposefully to prevent the creation of a standing army. Regiments were raised and disbanded on a regular basis.  The key point is that armies were raised by individuals, who in turn would offer their armies up for service if the Crown requested it.  However, the Navy was permanent and raised (and paid) by the Crown directly.

The 100th Anniversary that just occurred was in commemoration of the passing of the Naval Service Act, which created the Canadian Navy, but did not start something completely new.  The fledgling RCN was in fact, considered a sub-component of a greater imperial navy (said so right in the Act).  Thus, the Canadian Navy inherited the "Senior Service" title.


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## a_majoor

One infamous Forage Cap holdout was Col Strome Galloway. In several of his books, you can see the progression of Canadian uniforms from the mid 1930's to wartime patterns. Throughout, Galloway ALWAYS wore a Forage Cap (by the time we see group photos taken during the Italian campaign he is the only one wearing them). 

I met him a few times in the late 80's and early 90's, and yes indeed he was _still_ wearing a Forage Cap when in his honourary Colonel's uniform....


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## Ex-Dragoon

Having been both Armoured and Navy the beret is black, if you like call it navy black but it sure as hell is not navy blue.


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## aesop081

CountDC said:
			
		

> Most likely written by some army type that didn't know any better.   ;D




....or a Navy guy that calls one uniform "Salt & Peppers" and realizes that pepper is black.


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## Pusser

So I guess everything in the Army and Air Force is logical, clearly defined and exactly as it appears?


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## Fishbone Jones

Pusser said:
			
		

> So I guess everything in the Army and Air Force is logical, clearly defined and exactly as it appears?



It doesn't matter. You live in a fantasy world, make it whatever you want. I don't think anyone is listening to you anymore anyway. Just a guess though, on my part.

Say hi to Alice and the gang for me


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## dapaterson

Pusser said:
			
		

> So I guess everything in the Army and Air Force is logical, clearly defined and exactly as it appears?



I would never make such an accusation about the Army.  And the Air Force?  It's the next best thing to being in the military.   > 


(Though my favourite "This is Canada's Navy" story is this: to celebrate the centennial of the Navy, a memorial will be dedicated two years later,  on a non-navigable inland waterway.)


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