# Soldier fined for mailing guns from Afghanistan



## Haggis (17 Jun 2011)

Shared from  CANOE.ca, with the usual disclaimer:

TORONTO -- A Canadian Forces sergeant has been fined $1,500 for mailing to Canada three assault rifles and ammunition while on a seven-month tour of duty in Afghanistan.

Sgt. Randy Olive, 28, of Sault Ste Marie, Ont. was found guilty by a military court martial last month for sending the weapons and ammunition by Canada Post to his home for use as “artifacts or trophies of war,” according to an agreed statement of facts.

Court heard he mailed two AK-74s Russian-made assault rifles and three 30-round magazines between Aug. and Sept. 2010 while employed in Civil Military Cooperation with Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

The weapons were discovered after a package was intercepted by the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) in Trenton, Ont., in Sept. 2010. The package was sent by Olive and destined to his home, investigators said.

Olive admitted upon questioning, that he also had a third assault rifle, an AK-47, and more ammunition at home that was mailed from Afghanistan.

“The items were seized and transferred to the military police,” the statement said. “Inspection of the seized items disclosed that the rifles had been rendered inoperable.”

Police found two of the rifles were missing bolts and return springs and the barrels were welded shut.

Olive was arrested in Afghanistan and placed on a Chinook helicopter and flown to a Kandahar airport for a trip home, military officials said.

“I have no doubt that the weapons in question are artefacts or war trophies,” said Commander P.J. Lamont, who presided over the court martial. “Sgt. Olive stated that he wished to acquire items like the weapons he sent to Canada for use as ... artefacts at their home unit.”

Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are banned from taking or sending home artifacts or trophies of war, since they can be potentially dangerous or illegal to import into Canada.

Olive was told by military officials there is a process a soldier can follow to legally bring a weapon home.

He was told the weapon had to be certified by military experts that it was inoperable and free of radiation.

“Even with that done, you still need to get permission to ship them back to Canada,” one officer said. And a senior officer “has to be aware of serial numbers and the whole nine yards.”

Olive, who’s based at the Sault Ste Marie Armoury, was ordered to repay the fine in $500 instalments.


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## Pieman (17 Jun 2011)

> Olive was told by military officials there is a process a soldier can follow to legally bring a weapon home.


Saw that happen when  I was asked to lock up what I can only describe as 'Jingle AK-47s' on their way home to a Canadian Museum. I had no idea such a process existed prior to that.

I can't imaging thinking it was okay to mail some weapons home for any reason, proper precautions taken or not. Just asking for it IMHO.


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## Haggis (18 Jun 2011)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I had no idea such a process existed prior to that.



We used that process and were able to get an SKS for our museum that had been siezed in a raid by members of our unit.  We know the exact grid reference of where it was taken.


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## Pieman (18 Jun 2011)

> We used that process and were able to get an SKS for our museum that had been siezed in a raid by members of our unit.


Cool. At least someone knew what to do.


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## Haggis (18 Jun 2011)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Cool. At least someone knew what to do.



It was no big secret.  The process was published in Task Force Standing Orders.


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Jun 2011)

I new a friend of mine who bought back some old-fashioned muskets from Afghanistan. Not sure they were actually capable of being fired or whether they were just imitations.


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## Pieman (19 Jun 2011)

> The process was published in Task Force Standing Orders.


Can't say I feel sorry for the guy at all any more then.

I recall a few guys getting into trouble trying to bring home brass knuckles and certain knives that are illegal in Canada...that was in their barrack boxes though. Not sure if any of them were 'smart' enough to try and mail them home.


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## armyvern (19 Jun 2011)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Can't say I feel sorry for the guy at all any more then.
> 
> I recall a few guys getting into trouble trying to bring home brass knuckles and certain knives that are illegal in Canada...that was in their barrack boxes though. Not sure if any of them were 'smart' enough to try and mail them home.



This has been the process since I was a Pte a couple of decades ago. Render them inoperable, bring them and their serial # on charge, then issue to a museum account where the artefact can be tracked, transferred to another museum (or loaned to another) all while being able to visibly see it's "existance" in the system as it moves or sits in it's new place of public and/or Unit display.


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## gun plumber (19 Jun 2011)

Did quite a few weapons for shipment home while I was with the NSE. There is indeed a procedure we follow which involves Rad scanning the wpn, welding very specific components and photo documenting the entire process and submitting the report up the chain. The final step is sending the package home usually by CMTT, not Canada Post.

If anyone is interested the applicable CFTO is : C-71-010-024_MN-001- PROCEDURE FOR PREPARING SMALL ARMS AS MEMORIAL/MUSEUM PIECES


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## captloadie (20 Jun 2011)

Pieman said:
			
		

> Can't say I feel sorry for the guy at all any more then.
> 
> I recall a few guys getting into trouble trying to bring home brass knuckles and certain knives that are illegal in Canada...that was in their barrack boxes though. Not sure if any of them were 'smart' enough to try and mail them home.



And this is why it takes months for individuals to get there UAB back from tour. Customs xrays and checks every piece that returns because of a bad stretch a few years back. When I was at 2 Air Mov Sqn, there was one rotation where I received reports from Customs (with pictures) of some of the items found. At that time, no one was charged because it violateed privacy laws for them to share the names of the individuals they confiscated items from.


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## dh101 (20 Jun 2011)

I'm curious to see what the postage for three AK's and some ammo would be. They must weigh a lot. And not to mention the cost of the container to ship em home.


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## PuckChaser (20 Jun 2011)

I mailed a 4x6' Afghan carpet and some assorted items back (including a pair of boots) and it only cost me 15 USD. That was 2007, but its still pretty cheap still.


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## jollyjacktar (20 Jun 2011)

I noted the postage rates had really jumped between 07 and 09.  In 07 I mailed a 9 x 12 carpet back for $25 USD.  A similar weighted/sized package on the second tour cost me 4X more.  Still, all in all not a bad deal considering where it was coming from.


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## OldSolduer (20 Jun 2011)

dh101 said:
			
		

> I'm curious to see what the postage for three AK's and some ammo would be. They must weigh a lot. And not to mention the cost of the container to ship em home.



It SHOULD be thirty days in Edmonton.


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## J.J (20 Jun 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It SHOULD be thirty days in Edmonton.



It is actually a minimum, mandatory 3 yrs in the federal pen for importing a prohibited weapon under the CCC. He is one lucky guy to only get a small fine.


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## garb811 (20 Jun 2011)

captloadie said:
			
		

> And this is why it takes months for individuals to get there UAB back from tour. Customs xrays and checks every piece that returns because of a bad stretch a few years back. When I was at 2 Air Mov Sqn, there was one rotation where I received reports from Customs (with pictures) of some of the items found. At that time, no one was charged because it violateed privacy laws for them to share the names of the individuals they confiscated items from.


No it's not a violation of Privacy Laws.  Custom's had the option of charging the individual, there was also the option of contacting the Military Police to launch an investigation at which time the appropriate processes would be followed to obtain the required information, including names of alleged offenders.  Sounds to me that either Custom's was either lazy and couldn't be bothered to do the proper liaison with MP or lay the charge(s) themselves or they figured by contacting you, that you would in turn contact the MPs.


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## Stoker (20 Jun 2011)

WR said:
			
		

> It is actually a minimum, mandatory 3 yrs in the federal pen for importing a prohibited weapon under the CCC. He is one lucky guy to only get a small fine.



I believe the guns were rendered inoperable so wasn't importing a prohibited weapon, unless the magazines weren't pinned. What he did do was stupid for sure, he doesn't deserve imprisonment for it.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Jun 2011)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I believe the guns were rendered inoperable so wasn't importing a prohibited weapon, unless the magazines weren't pinned. What he did do was stupid for sure, he doesn't deserve imprisonment for it.



Only if they were rendered inoperable according to the guidelines. There are certain, very explicit things that have to be done. Don't do it right and it's not dewatted. If not, they were still prohibited.


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## Stoker (20 Jun 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Only if they were rendered inoperable according to the guidelines. There are certain, very explicit things that have to be done. Don't do it right and it's not dewatted. If not, they were still prohibited.



Absolutely the guns have to be deactivated by a certified gunsmith. The guidelines are pretty stringent.


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## J.J (20 Jun 2011)

garb811 said:
			
		

> No it's not a violation of Privacy Laws.  Custom's had the option of charging the individual, there was also the option of contacting the Military Police to launch an investigation at which time the appropriate processes would be followed to obtain the required information, including names of alleged offenders.  Sounds to me that either Custom's was either lazy and couldn't be bothered to do the proper liaison with MP or lay the charge(s) themselves or they figured by contacting you, that you would in turn contact the MPs.



 That is quite an arrogant and ill informed comment....There are privacy issues, unless CBSA has an MOU with the military police or the MP's have an active criminal investigation, CBSA cannot release the information due to privacy laws and the Customs Act.


What happens is people who have butterfly knives, brass knuckles etc at the border are not normally charged criminally. A monetary fine is assessed, the item is seized. If there is a large quanity or the person has a criminal record, then criminal charges will be laid.


			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Absolutely the guns have to be deactivated by a certified gunsmith. The guidelines are pretty stringent.



It has to be certified and then signed off by the Chief Firearms Officer at the CFC


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## Garett (20 Jun 2011)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Absolutely the guns have to be deactivated by a certified gunsmith. The guidelines are pretty stringent.



Wpns Techs aren't certified gunsmiths unless they've done civie trg on their own. They can do the work but a gunsmith has to do the paperwork. We just went through this get a Lee Enfield deactivated. Its not easy to get wpns back to Canada even if they're going to a Battalion's lines, the regulations and process exists but a lot of people are more likely to say no to avoid having to do the work.


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## gun plumber (20 Jun 2011)

Garett said:
			
		

> Wpns Techs aren't certified gunsmiths unless they've done civie trg on their own.



You are correct that we are are not Gunsmiths. Gunsmiths tend to more skilled in ornamental work and have the skills required to fabricate components and preform finish work.



			
				Garett said:
			
		

> They can do the work but a gunsmith has to do the paperwork.



A  QL 5 qualified Wpns Tech performs the actual work and photo documents the process IAW the above mention CFTO. We also have to follow a set of criteria laid out in order to comply with Firearms act. A QL 6A Sgt signs off after inspection of the work and review of the paperwork.



			
				Garett said:
			
		

> We just went through this get a Lee Enfield deactivated.



Wouldn't happen to be dated around 1875,  lever action would it?


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## garb811 (20 Jun 2011)

WR said:
			
		

> That is quite an arrogant and ill informed comment....There are privacy issues, unless CBSA has an MOU with the military police or the MP's have an active criminal investigation, CBSA cannot release the information due to privacy laws and the Customs Act.


I'm sorry if you find it arrogant but it is not ill informed.  I have done files, and know of many others, which are the direct result of service members coming to the attention of CBSA via showing up at the border with contraband, mailing it home, sending it in UAB etc etc.  As I stated, there is a process that needs to be followed in order to get all of the information required but it is certainly not a violation of the Privacy Act if the appropriate actions are taken, MP are included in Schedule 2 of the Privacy Regulations as an Investigative Body.


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## J.J (20 Jun 2011)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry if you find it arrogant but it is not ill informed.  I have done files, and know of many others, which are the direct result of service members coming to the attention of CBSA via showing up at the border with contraband, mailing it home, sending it in UAB etc etc.  As I stated, there is a process that needs to be followed in order to get all of the information required but it is certainly not a violation of the Privacy Act if the appropriate actions are taken, MP are included in Schedule 2 of the Privacy Regulations as an Investigative Body.



I do find it arrogant and you would to when insults are thrown at the mp's.

I never insinuated or stated that the military police are not part of the Schedule 2 of the Privacy Regulations as an Investigative Body. I will further explain my comment so you can understand it.
According to section 107 of the Customs Act information gathered from a Customs exam cannot be released without a due process. I simplified it by stating 2 common circumstances where it is released to a law enforcement agency;

When the agency has an active criminal investigation or there is an MOU in place. For example; I can release a significant amount of information to US Customs and Border Protection because there is a national MOU in place (only intel info, not for court purposes).
If you as an MPO called me requesting information from a seizure at Trenton, unless you had an active file with a case # and the information was time sensitive I could give you  the information. Otherwise you would have to submit an official request detailing why and what information you are requesting.


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