# Ontario Politics in 2018



## Altair (10 Mar 2018)

Apparently the PC leadership results are a dead head between Elliott & Ford and fraught with technical issues. 

The delegates are all currently waiting around on the floor past the time when the results were supposed to be announced, while the party leadership and lawyers for Ford & Elliott are holed up behind closed doors.

Wynne is the real winner today


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## Remius (10 Mar 2018)

What a goat rodeo...


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## brihard (10 Mar 2018)

Ugh. Looks like the Liberals just won the PCPO leadership race.

It’ll be a cold day in hell before I vote for Doug Ford.


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## PPCLI Guy (10 Mar 2018)

What a shit show.  Ontario is fooked either way now.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Ugh. Looks like the Liberals just won the PCPO leadership race.
> 
> It’ll be a cold day in hell before I vote for Doug Ford.



Depending what you're reading hell is sometimes explained as a frozen wasteland.

So maybe a vote for Doug?


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## cavalryman (10 Mar 2018)

What is it with the PCPO that they've not been able to vote in a grownup as leader since Mike Harris?  Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  Christine Elliot would have sent Wynne packing without breaking a sweat.  A blowhard like Ford?  Not a chance.  I've voted Tory all my adult life.  This time around, I won't bother voting at all.  What's the point?


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## brihard (10 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Depending what you're reading hell is sometimes explained as a frozen wasteland.
> 
> So maybe a vote for Doug?



Let me try again. I would sooner slam a car door on my genitals than vote for Doug Ford or reward the PCs for what it appears they just went and did.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Let me try again. I would sooner slam a car door on my genitals than vote for Doug Ford or reward the PCs for what it appears they just went and did.



I figure it's just like how the hell sheer got voted in. Who ever is responsible will have a nice cushy liberal job lined up lol


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## Jed (10 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Let me try again. I would sooner slam a car door on my genitals than vote for Doug Ford or reward the PCs for what it appears they just went and did.


I really have no dog in this hunt but for ON to put  a Wynne government in because the don’t like the other guy is the same thing as slamming your genitals in aa car door. Just sayin’


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## jollyjacktar (10 Mar 2018)

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/ontario-progressive-conservatives-pcs-new-leader-election-1.4571014

They're saying Ford for sure.  Shame.


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## cavalryman (10 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> I really have no dog in this hunt but for ON to put  a Wynne government in because the don’t like the other guy is the same thing as slamming your genitals in aa car door. Just sayin’


Perhaps, but unfortunately, the June election has just become an Anyone-But-Ford crap show.   :facepalm:  If the PCPO hadn't lost what little brains it still had, it would have understood this.  And I do have a dog in this hunt, sadly.


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## brihard (10 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> I really have no dog in this hunt but for ON to put  a Wynne government in because the don’t like the other guy is the same thing as slamming your genitals in aa car door. Just sayin’



Oh, no chance I’ll vote for Wynne. Probably a protest vote for Green unless there’s someone else more unviably absurd.


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## Jed (10 Mar 2018)

Well if the Wynne government goes in and the Liberals go federally I predict you will have an’ Any one but Eastern Canada’ movement out West.


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## OldSolduer (10 Mar 2018)

Unfortunately as Ontario is the dominant province our fortunes will follow Ontario’s whether we like it or not.


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## garb811 (10 Mar 2018)

You guys want a split of the thread to consolidate the discussion on the results and possible repercussions of the leadership race?


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## Altair (10 Mar 2018)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh, no chance I’ll vote for Wynne. Probably a protest vote for Green unless there’s someone else more unviably absurd.


its going to be a anyone but ford movement on the left. 

Watch for the NDP vote to collapse now.


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## FJAG (10 Mar 2018)

I'm totally gobsmacked but can't blame anyone but myself because I didn't register to vote in this clusterf***. Trouble is with what happened down south it's not as if this kind of result wasn't predictable.

There's no way I'll ever vote Liberal here and quite frankly I'll vote for anyone who will get her and her gang out (save and except the NDP)

I have a hard time believing that there are enough Ontario conservatives that truly wanted Ford as leader. His business credentials are a joke and his stand on abortion and sex education and the like is too "pseudo-Christian" for my liking. I'm waiting to see the results of the vote. They say it was close so in a four-way race like this it probably means he's far short of the majority of the votes.

ullhair:


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## mariomike (10 Mar 2018)

Turn clocks forward tonight, turn Ontario back 25 years?


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## PuckChaser (10 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Turn clocks forward tonight, turn Ontario back 25 years?


I'd happily turn it back to Mike Harris if it means the gongshow of Mcguinty and Wynne never existed.  The PCs are being dealt the same cards Harris was dealt after Rae bankrupted the province. 

Don't vote Ford if you must, just keep the vote away from the liberals and the PCs will still win.


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## Altair (10 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I'd happily turn it back to Mike Harris if it means the gongshow of Mcguinty and Wynne never existed.  The PCs are being dealt the same cards Harris was dealt after Rae bankrupted the province.
> 
> Don't vote Ford if you must, just keep the vote away from the liberals and the PCs will still win.


One of the NDP or the Liberals will rally the left leaning vote to keep ford out of office. 

A damn shame.


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## mariomike (10 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I'd happily turn it back to Mike Harris if it means the gongshow of Mcguinty and Wynne never existed.  The PCs are being dealt the same cards Harris was dealt after Rae bankrupted the province.
> 
> Don't vote Ford if you must, just keep the vote away from the liberals and the PCs will still win.



According to your profile, you were 8 years old 25 years ago.    

Not to argue party politics with you. 

That is why I put a ? at the end of my single sentence post.


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## garb811 (10 Mar 2018)

And the...I'm not even sure what to call it at this point...continues.

'Please go home': Ontario PC leadership race results under review, no leader announced



> ...
> Hartley Lefton, chair of the PC leadership election committee, told the packed convention centre in Markham, Ont., that there are 1,300 ballots under dispute, and that the party will reveal results "as soon as practically possible."
> 
> "Unfortunately we don't have access to the hall any longer. Members, I ask you to please go home to wait for results. We cannot stay here," Lefton said.
> ...


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## dapaterson (10 Mar 2018)

So, can't organize a leadership vote or a convention, but want to run the province.

Got it.


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## PuckChaser (10 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, can't organize a leadership vote or a convention, but want to run the province.
> 
> Got it.


The issue was with online voting, the software ran on postal codes instead of street address moving people into the wrong riding. There was also only 1,000 contested votes out of 64,000. Pretty decent for a snap leadership campaign run 3 months before a general election.


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## dapaterson (10 Mar 2018)

So, didn't plan for how to do the vote.  Didn't do "what if" scenarios in advance to be ready?

And the "Sorry, we're being kicked out of the hall"?

Amateur hour.


All we need now is for Patrick Brown to come back and try to re-re--reclaim the leadership.


On the plus side, if the reports are correct, at least they'll have expertise in cannabis sales...


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## cavalryman (10 Mar 2018)

After following an online debate involving Doug Ford supporters, I keep picturing the final days in the Fuhrer bunker. :facepalm:


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## jollyjacktar (10 Mar 2018)

:rofl:

But, this just in.  Der Fuhrer has been selected.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/ontario-progressive-conservatives-pcs-new-leader-election-1.4571014


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## mariomike (10 Mar 2018)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> After following an online debate involving Doug Ford supporters, I keep picturing the final days in the Fuhrer bunker. :facepalm:




Never been to a Ford Fest?  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXmdA92xGJo&feature=youtu.be


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## Kat Stevens (10 Mar 2018)

It just amazes me that the province that votes like monkeys flinging poop at a dart board also gets to control federal elections. No wonder we're in the current state.


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## FJAG (11 Mar 2018)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It just amazes me that the province City of Toronto that votes like monkeys flinging poop at a dart board also gets to control federal elections. No wonder we're in the current state.



FTFY  ;D


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## Retired AF Guy (11 Mar 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> But, this just in.  Der Fuhrer has been selected.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/ontario-progressive-conservatives-pcs-new-leader-election-1.4571014



I can just see it, a few years as leader of the Ontario PCs (whether he gets elected Premier or not) and the next thing you know he will be running Federally.


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## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I can just see it, a few years as leader of the Ontario PCs (whether he gets elected Premier or not) and the next thing you know he will be running Federally.


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## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

Also,  can Elliot finally be put out to pasture? 

3 time loser now.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

"I won't vote for Ford.  How horrible. Ontario is all finished. A carnival." I think the hyperboyle is a little comical actually. Anyway, the only thing I might get worried about is that  you'll let Wynne back in because you dislike Ford, not even giving him a chance. But yeah, ok, that's your choice and none of my business how you vote or think. I don't think you'll get much better results with Horvath, again, not my business.


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## Good2Golf (11 Mar 2018)

Ford has (surprising to some) gravitas in 416/905-land.  My hydro meter spinning my hard-earned $$$ in Hydro Wynne has me at least willing to see how things develop.  A three-way ‘Also Ran’ of PCs, NDPs and Greens will do nothing but reinforce the McGwynnety Dynasty. :not-again:

Regards
G2G


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> "I won't vote for Ford.  How horrible. Ontario is all finished. A carnival." I think the hyperboyle is a little comical actually. Anyway, the only thing I might get worried about is that  you'll let Wynne back in because you dislike Ford, not even giving him a chance. But yeah, ok, that's your choice and none of my business how you vote or think. I don't think you'll get much better results with Horvath, again, not my business.




I think you misunderstand the sentiment here.  We, and I include myself in that, wanted a viable alternative to Ms. Wynne, someone who couldn’t take her on and not scare the electorate like the last few times.   Campaigns MATTER.  Wynne for all her faults is a formidable campaigner who will likely have a robust machine behind her (the same machine that got Trudeau elected).  The conservatives barely got a leadership vote right let alone a campaign.  That worries me. 

Ford said he is open to reopening the abortion debate for example.  It didn’t go unnoticed that Tania Granic Allen was standing at his side all smiles.  My fear is that the party is going to make a hard turn to the social right and scare the voters into sticking with the status quo and Wynne walks away with the election.

Your line about us letting Wynne win because we dislike Ford.  I think the PCs have done that on their own by choosing a populist leader.  If moderate Conservatives on this site aren’t happy and worried imagine what I’ll happen come June after a brutal campaign with Ontarians who could vote one or another. 

None of us wants Wynne back but the fact is that the PC party have just made her job easier.  I don’t find it comical at all.


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Mar 2018)

I think people living in Ontario should remember two things before writing off Rob Ford:

1. Caucuses matter. Look carefully at your local candidates when you make your choice at election time.

2. If you vote "anybody but Ford", you are basically garaunteeing another Wynne Victory, or possibly a minority NDP government. The OLP is arguably the most corrupt political machine in Canada and you are give them another 4 years as the stewards of Canada's largest province? Do you like paying extortionate levels of tax and hydro? How much longer do you think any industry of any size can hang on in your province?


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## Jed (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I think you misunderstand the sentiment here.  We, and I include myself in that, wanted a viable alternative to Ms. Wynne, someone who couldn’t take her on and not scare the electorate like the last few times.   Campaigns MATTER.  Wynne for all her faults is a formidable campaigner who will likely have a robust machine behind her (the same machine that got Trudeau elected).  The conservatives barely got a leadership vote right let alone a campaign.  That worries me.
> 
> Ford said he is open to reopening the abortion debate for example.  It didn’t go unnoticed that Tania Granic Allen was standing at his side all smiles.  My fear is that the party is going to make a hard turn to the social right and scare the voters into sticking with the status quo and Wynne walks away with the election.
> 
> ...



If none of you want Wynne back then don’t vote for the Liberals.  The definition of insanity, doing something over and over and expecting a different result.


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

And that is exactly is what is going to happen.  By all rights the OLP should have been thrown out two elections ago.  But the PCs keep screwing it up and normally on one issue.  One issue that sinks them because of fearmongering.  Last time was the 100 000 job cut. 

Don’t think for one second that Wynne isn’t going to use things like abortion and gay marriage against the Ford camp.  And Ontario will buy it.


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## Journeyman (11 Mar 2018)

Perhaps a separate discussion should be on what happened to common sense, moderate politics.

US federal, Canadian federal, Ontario provincial -- each one has garnered a greater outcry than previous elections of, "are you serious? Out of millions of citizens, those are the _best_  you can put forward?"  Why pandering to the extreme fringes/lowest common denominator?  Is there _really_  that many voters who thrive on bumper-sticker governance because actually thinking about issues is too difficult/troublesome?

Maybe it's time we joined Kent Brockman, just welcomed our new insect overlords, and be done with it.

      _~sigh~_    :not-again:


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## ModlrMike (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Don’t think for one second that Wynne isn’t going to use things like abortion and gay marriage against the Ford camp.


Despite neither of those things being within the Premier's purview. 



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> And Ontario will buy it.


Unfortunately, yes.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Mar 2018)

Who can I vote for if I'm against abortion for married gay men lol

I haven't actually heard anything about _ this _ Ford.  Guessing he's into drugs or prostitutes or something? 

I know the other Ford had issues but if I'm not mistaken he actually did a pretty decent job at being a mayor?

Its pretty shitty if we're stuck with a hammer head.  Sadder still we're in a position where anyone would be better than Wynne.  Throwing away a vote helps keep Wynne in office.


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Despite neither of those things being within the Premier's purview.
> Unfortunately, yes.



Except that Ford already demonstrated that he can make it his purview. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/doug-ford-raises-abortion-issue-in-effort-to-woo-social-conservatives-expert-1.3832209

I think we might be seeing a reverse of what we saw down south.  Pitting a more disliked candidate against another.

Given Elliott’s refusal to concede her side might pull a Bernie Sanders and not show up at the polls.


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Except that Ford already demonstrated that he can make it his purview.
> 
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/doug-ford-raises-abortion-issue-in-effort-to-woo-social-conservatives-expert-1.3832209
> 
> ...



Once again, I would ask that you carefully examine the candidates in your local riding and make your choice based on that. Not voting at all says, what, exactly?


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## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I know the other Ford had issues but if I'm not mistaken he actually did a pretty decent job at being a mayor?



On November 15, 2013 Rob Ford was stripped of power as mayor by Toronto council.

In the history of the city, this was unprecedented.

Councillors decided by a 37-5 vote to cut the mayor’s budget and by a 36-6 vote to transfer many of Ford’s deputies and much of his budget to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly. 

A 32-10 vote decreed Ford could no longer set key matters on the legislative agenda. 

Another 37-5 vote removed the mayor’s right to fill vacancies on the civic appointments committee. 

He retained symbolic powers, and could still attend official functions as Toronto’s mayor, but he no longer had the clout associated with a CEO. 

David Price, Ford's friend and former football coach, who had been hired personally by Ford at twice the salary of others in the mayor's office, was terminated.

As a matter of public safety, his power to govern the city during a State of Emergency was taken away from him, and given to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

Because he was not a city employee, he could not be fired. All they could do was take away his power.


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## dapaterson (11 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I haven't actually heard anything about _ this _ Ford.  Guessing he's into drugs or prostitutes or something?



Noted hash dealer for many years, according to the Globe and Mail, in an article published in 2013, years before he ran to become the PCPO leader.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Once again, I would ask that you carefully examine the candidates in your local riding and make your choice based on that. Not voting at all says, what, exactly?



Don’t confuse me with someone who isn’t going to vote.  I’m pointing out the self inflicted challenge the PCs have done to themselves.  They’ve given Wynne so many gifts it isn’t even funny.  

I know how I’ll be voting.  But Ontario as whole is another story.

The party is a mess now.  Elliot refuses to concede, Mulroney’s machine will like go dormant and I wouldn’t Be surprised if some elements from within sabotage Ford’s chances. 

Yeah, fun times.


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## suffolkowner (11 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Noted hash dealer for many years, according to the Globe and Mail, in an article published in 2013, years before he ran to become the PCPO leader.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/



Hard to believe that the PC's find the above to be acceptable but a heterosexual man having sex with women?


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## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> If none of you want Wynne back then don’t vote for the Liberals.  The definition of insanity, doing something over and over and expecting a different result.


Wynne> Northern Trump.


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## stellarpanther (11 Mar 2018)

I was going to vote PC until Ford got in.  Now I need to decide who's better between Liberal and NDP.  Regardless of who get's in though, I don't expect to see anything big happen with hydro prices, it's to messed up right now and the debt needs to be paid.


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## Cloud Cover (11 Mar 2018)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Once again, I would ask that you carefully examine the candidates in your local riding and make your choice based on that. Not voting at all says, what, exactly?


Agreed. And even if you are not a supporter of Ford, remember he’s just as liable to be removed by the party as Brown was! So, there’s that....Lol!  The main thing, for me anyway, is to now focus on the local candidate in the election and do what you can to get them elected and and Wynne out. I guess it won’t happen this election, but this province needs a political smiting of near biblical proportions, it happened 100 years ago and it could happen again.


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## dapaterson (11 Mar 2018)

Don't forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_general_election,_1990


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I was going to vote PC until Ford got in.  Now I need to decide who's better between Liberal and NDP.  Regardless of who get's in though, I don't expect to see anything big happen with hydro prices, it's to messed up right now and the debt needs to be paid.



This is exactly what I’m talking about.  I know plenty that would have voted PC under Mulroney, Elliott or even Brown (before the scandal).  Instead the party picks someone that a lot of those people (women in particular) won’t be able to bring themselves to vote for.


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Agreed. And even if you are not a supporter of Ford, remember he’s just as liable to be removed by the party as Brown was! So, there’s that....Lol!  The main thing, for me anyway, is to now focus on the local candidate in the election and do what you can to get them elected and and Wynne out. I guess it won’t happen this election, but this province needs a political smiting of near biblical proportions, it happened 100 years ago and it could happen again.



I wanted a smiting.  As in reduced to no party standing in the legislature.  With Ford leading, I think the Liberals might get a minority now or the NDP get a minority.


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## dapaterson (11 Mar 2018)

Kathleen Wynne has to go, and that’s why I’m voting for—oh, oh no…

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/05/kathleen-wynne-go-thats-im-voting-oh-oh-no/


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## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Kathleen Wynne has to go, and that’s why I’m voting for—oh, oh no…
> 
> https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/05/kathleen-wynne-go-thats-im-voting-oh-oh-no/


The Ontario PCs need to pick one non polarizing figure to walk to political victory... 

Of course they couldn't do that. 

I maintain,  left leaning voters are going to take one look at ford,  look at the polls,  see who has the most support,  liberals or NDP and vote for the party in the lead in an effort to keep ford out.


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

Good point.  The election will have an element of keeping Ford out rather than effectively replacing the Liberals.  Well done Ontario PCs.    :tsktsk:


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## suffolkowner (11 Mar 2018)

Personally I don't think it's going to matter one way or another. I still fully expect a PC victory, having said that I don't live in Toronto so maybe that's enough to re-elect the Liberals


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## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I haven't actually heard anything about _ this _ Ford.



Doug served one term as councillor for Ward 2 during Rob's one term as mayor.

Doug had the third worst attendance record on council. Only Giorgio Mammoliti ( brain surgery ) and Ron Moeser ( cancer - now deceased ) had worse attendance records.

When he was in attendance, he voted with his brother more than 90 per cent of the time. Sometimes in opposition to all the rest of council. 

Doug had a plan to seize control of the Port Lands redevelopment from Waterfront Toronto, replacing the tri-party government agency’s long-term vision with a monorail, a megamall and the world’s largest Ferris wheel.

That scheme fell flat.


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## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Personally I don't think it's going to matter one way or another. I still fully expect a PC victory, having said that I don't live in Toronto so maybe that's enough to re-elect the Liberals


This party has a history of grabbing defeat out of the jaws of victory,  and with ford,  they might have done just that


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## pbi (11 Mar 2018)

This was not what I wanted, but it was what I was very sure would happen. Ford is not my idea of conservatism: he represents a kind of ignorant, blustering populism that in my opinion often draws energy from factions I would rather not see anywhere near the levers of power.

He will win the Provincial election, possibly with a minority, but he will win. He will do this because he will peddle an "anti-elite, aww-shucks I'm just a little guy, let's get those civil servant parasites" shtick which will play well in the Northern and less urbanized ridings, where they see the urban centre as having largely forgotten about them. I predict he will sweep all of those ridings.

He will do well (but perhaps not quite as well) in the urbanized ridings where the huge majority of Ontarians live, for two reasons. First, we're Canadians and our reflex is to "vote against" after two terms or so. (Which IMHO is not necessarily a bad thing, given the inherent failings of our political system). Second, much like the Federal Tories in the final desperate days before their last defeat, I believe that he will by design turn to cultivate certain ethnic communities marked by their social conservatism (sometimes, unfortunately, their _extreme_ social conservatism). These were, IMHO, the groups Kellie Leitch may have been trying to warn Canadians about before she flamed out.

So, if those two lines of effort work (and I'm sure they will), Doug will win.

I don't really know exactly what I will do come voting time. I want these Liberals out, for several reasons, but I had very much hoped for a Red Tory victory in the Ontario PC leadership campaign. Nor, BTW, do I ever want to see the NDP in power in Ontario again. Unfortunately for me (and people like me) Ford does not represent my kind of moderate conservatism.


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## suffolkowner (11 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> This was not what I wanted, but it was what I was very sure would happen. Ford is not my idea of conservatism: he represents a kind of ignorant, blustering populism that in my opinion often draws energy from factions I would rather not see anywhere near the levers of power.
> 
> He will win the Provincial election, possibly with a minority, but he will win. He will do this because he will peddle an "anti-elite, aww-shucks I'm just a little guy, let's get those civil servant parasites" shtick which will play well in the Northern and less urbanized ridings, where they see the urban centre as having largely forgotten about them. I predict he will sweep all of those ridings.
> 
> ...



This is pretty much my view as well, although I can see Ford reaping the benefit that Brown has done in the East Indian communities.


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## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

I'm of a opposite mind. 

Ontario,  on a whole,  is a left leaning province. To win Ontario,  you need to win,  or at least be competitive in Toronto. And a vote split among the left helps.  And most importantly,  even among the left,  there was liberal fatigue. Wynne is hated. Even if they wouldn't come out and vote PC,  a lot of liberals would have stayed home if Elliot or Mulroney had won. 

But now there is ford. The man who couldn't win the mayors race now had to be competative in toronto(and Ottawa) 

Liberals who might have stayed home now have a reason to come out and vote for whatever party can keep ford out.  And in doing so,  eliminate the vote split among the left 

He's the perfect storm of bad for the PC party.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Noted hash dealer for many years, according to the Globe and Mail, in an article published in 2013, years before he ran to become the PCPO leader.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/




And nothing. No charges, no conviction, nothing. Your letting the press drive your narrative.
 The Mop & Pail.


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## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Noted hash dealer for many years, according to the Globe and Mail, in an article published in 2013, years before he ran to become the PCPO leader.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/



Doug vowed to serve the paper with a notice of libel, but never did.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

Well, unlike many here. I'm willing to give him a chance. Some people thrive and blossum under pressure.

And really, just for a moment, you think he's actually worse than wynne and the liebrals?

Besides, your not voting for him unless your in his riding. You vote for the person in your own riding. Do you consider them morons also because of their party leader?Your local rep is the person that represents YOU in parliament. Not Ford.

And if he wins, it is because of the will of the majority, just like the leadership race. 

And if he's in the majority, his naysayers are a minority voice, not in tune with the masses. 

We need Toronto and I don't think Elliot could have delivered. Just my opinion.

I see our new favourite phrase is 'bumper sticker this and that". Since when does having a bumper sticker make you a moron or extreme right or left?


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## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

This sums it up nicely.

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/will-doug-fords-victory-be-a-lifeline-to-wynnes-liberals/


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> This sums it up nicely.
> 
> http://www.macleans.ca/politics/will-doug-fords-victory-be-a-lifeline-to-wynnes-liberals/



Biased news articles do not a true synopsis make. I think I just channeled Yoda. 

The OPINIONS of journalists are just that. Their opinion. No better than yours or mine.

Editorial OPINIONS are the purvue of the media owner. More elitist opinion.

I'll form my own opinions, without the MSM. They can't be trusted anymore.


----------



## pbi (11 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, unlike many here. I'm willing to give him a chance. Some people thrive and blossum under pressure.
> 
> And really, just for a moment, you think he's actually worse than wynne and the liebrals?
> 
> ...



Well...he might take it with a plurality, given our first past the post system and the fact that there are three parties of consequence in the running. As we often hear levelled against the Trudeau Liberals, they "won" but most votes were not cast for them. But then FPTP is what we've always had.

On the "bumper sticker" thing, I may have been the guilty party in introducing that phrase in this discourse. What I meant by it is not a literal reference to whether or not people put bumper stickers on their cars. Lots of people have done that, me included: that's isn't the point.

What I mean is more figurative, and I use it more as a verb (since we can make up words these days... ;D). To "bumper-sticker" someone. I use it to mean the practice of immediately slamming a person into a "box" or "stereotype" based on what you think they "must" believe. This allows us to then stop listening to what the person may actually be saying, or what other range of beliefs they may hold. For example: "_All liberals believe XYZ_" or _"All conservatives think ABC_". It's intellectual laziness, but it's very easy and very attractive. It's great for rallying the troops, or shouting people down. It doesn't do anything for finding an intelligent, reasonable and practical solution to anything important. It divides society rather finding common ground for solutions.

I think it's worth noting that it's a favourite tactic of both "Right" and "Left", because it works equally well. I've probably been guilty of using it myself.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> _"All conservatives think ABC_".



 I know what you were trying to say. It just didn't come out that way when I read it. :rofl:


----------



## Altair (11 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Biased news articles do not a true synopsis make. I think I just channeled Yoda.
> 
> The OPINIONS of journalists are just that. Their opinion. No better than yours or mine.
> 
> ...


Now this is lazy. 

It is an opinion, true enough. But rather than discuss what you believe to be true or false,  you say its MSM and as such,  not worthy of discussion. 

I don't think remius posted that as the end all on the subject,  just a point of view by someone in the press. 

One can agree or disagree but to dismiss it out of hand...


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

Maclean’s is hardly a left leaning publication. 

The article echoes the concern some of us have mentioned here. 

The Liberals are laughing.  Right now they have the candidate they wanted to face. That isn’t opinion, it is a fact.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Good point.  The election will have an element of keeping Ford out rather than effectively replacing the Liberals.  Well done Ontario PCs.    :tsktsk:



Ultimately, the election will be won in Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor, K-W, and the Niagara Region. Of 124 provincial seats, 40-50 are in the GTA (depending on how you view the GTA), 5 in K-W/Guelph, 9 in Ottawa, 3 in Windsor, and 4 in London for a total of 71/124 seats being in major southern ontario urban centres. Northern Ontario from Simcoe up has 12 by comparison. Assuming that the PC can win a plurality of the rural seats (say, 30 of 50), the challenge for them then is to take a minimum of 32-35 urban seats. Inevitably, the election will be won or lost in Toronto, so the question becomes if Doug Ford can carry 33% as a minimum of seats in the GTA. I would argue then that the election will be won or lost in the suburbs of Toronto. If Ford can stay on message and focus on Wynne's record than he will accomplish this. If he starts going into, or falls into, a debate on same-sex marriage or abortion or some such socially conservative issue that doesn't play well in the GTA than I believe he will lose. I _think_ that's the fear with Doug- that he can be tricked into saying something stupid a la the "my wife is Jewish" debacle during his mayorial run. The PC needs a competent leader to just drive the ship into the election victory harbour as the Liberals have made it past their best before date. They need to hope that Doug doesn't hit rocks on his way in.


----------



## jollyjacktar (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Maclean’s is hardly a left leaning publication.
> 
> The article echoes the concern some of us have mentioned here.
> 
> The Liberals are laughing.  Right now they have the candidate they wanted to face. That isn’t opinion, it is a fact.



I have to agree, as an outsider looking in.  I fear he will cause serious vote splitting and let Wynn sneak back in.  She must be in absolute shock at this twist in fate to her advantage.  Which will be a tragedy for ON and the rest of us.


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Ultimately, the election will be won in Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor, K-W, and the Niagara Region. Of 124 provincial seats, 40-50 are in the GTA (depending on how you view the GTA), 5 in K-W/Guelph, 9 in Ottawa, 3 in Windsor, and 4 in London for a total of 71/124 seats being in major southern ontario urban centres. Northern Ontario from Simcoe up has 12 by comparison. Assuming that the PC can win a plurality of the rural seats (say, 30 of 50), the challenge for them then is to take a minimum of 32-35 urban seats. Inevitably, the election will be won or lost in Toronto, so the question becomes if Doug Ford can carry 33% as a minimum of seats in the GTA. I would argue then that the election will be won or lost in the suburbs of Toronto. If Ford can stay on message and focus on Wynne's record than he will accomplish this. If he starts going into, or falls into, a debate on same-sex marriage or abortion or some such socially conservative issue that doesn't play well in the GTA than I believe he will lose. I _think_ that's the fear with Doug- that he can be tricked into saying something stupid a la the "my wife is Jewish" debacle during his mayorial run. The PC needs a competent leader to just drive the ship into the election victory harbour as the Liberals have made it past their best before date. They need to hope that Doug doesn't hit rocks on his way in.



Exactly.  He was pretty good during the debate and the short campaign for leadership.  I think his comments on abortion were for the party but he will be called on that.  Hopefully he can stay on message with Wynne and not get trapped.  His opponents are going to paint him as the Trump of the North but we’ll see how he handles that.


----------



## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> His opponents are going to paint him as the Trump of the North but we’ll see how he handles that.



Why wait?

Absolutely Donald Trump respects women. There's millions of women that have voted for him. So all those millions of women are dumb? I don't think so.

Do I think Donald Trump can run the country a lot better and get along with other countries like Russia? Absolutely he can do a better job. He can create a stimulus. He can lower taxes.

Donald Trump's a businessman, he's a very successful businessman. I think he's a marketing genius.

Over 80% of the media can't stand Donald Trump in the US. I've never seen a more biased media in my entire life, except Rob Ford. But outside of that I have not seen a more biased media.

No one can buy Donald Trump. And everyone knows that. 
http://www.azquotes.com/author/24760-Doug_Ford_Jr


----------



## PPCLI Guy (11 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Biased news articles do not a true synopsis make. I think I just channeled Yoda.
> 
> The OPINIONS of journalists are just that. Their opinion. No better than yours or mine.
> 
> ...



Where was the bias?  Where was the opinion?  Did we read the same article?

Al I could see that even slightly smelled of bias was:

"Had Elliott won, it’s possible she could have swayed some urban and suburban voters, in new ridings and elsewhere, to the Conservative camp. Ford is unlikely to have the same effect on Liberal voters."

What am I missing?


----------



## Loachman (11 Mar 2018)

Not my first choice, but I am not particularly troubled.

Having lived through both NDP and Liberal provincial governments, Premier Ford would have to work hard to be worse.

And governing is not a solo effort, as has already been pointed out.

www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/grenier-ford-toronto-pcs-1.4535313

Ontario PCs can win in Toronto with Doug Ford - and probably without him 

The PCs could use the support Doug Ford had in the 2014 Toronto election. But do they need him to get it?

Analysis

Éric Grenier · Politics and polls · CBC News

February 26, 2018 

"Doug Ford's pitch to Ontario Progressive Conservatives is that he can lead the party to a breakthrough in Toronto, a city that has spurned the Tories in four consecutive elections.

"It's a big claim - and he has the numbers to back it up. But if the PCs want to storm Toronto in June's provincial election, do they really face a choice between Ford and failure?

"Unlike his rivals for the PC leadership, Ford can point to his actual electoral performance to back up his claim that he can deliver in Toronto."


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (11 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Exactly.  He was pretty good during the debate and the short campaign for leadership.  I think his comments on abortion were for the party but he will be called on that.  Hopefully he can stay on message with Wynne and not get trapped.  His opponents are going to paint him as the Trump of the North but we’ll see how he handles that.



I also think that's going to be the Liberal and NDP strategy. The Liberal path to victory likely involves taking t 50-60 of the urban seats (40-ish in Toronto, 6-7 in Ottawa, and the remainder in the other major urban centres) and hope for 10-ish rural seats throughout the province, likely in the rural areas around Barrie, Chatham, St. Thomas, etc with smaller cities. I would think that Wynne doesn't even bother going to areas like Owen Sound, northern Ontario (outside of Sudbury and Thunder Bay maybe), or Muskoka. So, inevitably, the liberals will attempt to force Ford into both making the election into socially conservative issues and away from power bills, hydro plant scandals, and debt as it's their only path to 63. Ford also has the double issue of needing the Toronto seats and keeping PC seats outside of Toronto. He can't pander to the rural ridings who will vote for him regardless of what he does- he needs to maintain a strict economic conservative message and avoid the traps that will be set. Hopefully he doesn't have too many skeletons in the closet like his brother did or else he could create a "devil that I know" situation.


The NDP dont have a path to victory outside of hoping that the Liberals and PC both implode, which is actually relatively likely.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Ultimately, the election will be won in Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor, K-W, and the Niagara Region. Of 124 provincial seats, 40-50 are in the GTA (depending on how you view the GTA), 5 in K-W/Guelph, 9 in Ottawa, 3 in Windsor, and 4 in London for a total of 71/124 seats being in major southern ontario urban centres. Northern Ontario from Simcoe up has 12 by comparison. Assuming that the PC can win a plurality of the rural seats (say, 30 of 50), the challenge for them then is to take a minimum of 32-35 urban seats. Inevitably, the election will be won or lost in Toronto, so the question becomes if Doug Ford can carry 33% as a minimum of seats in the GTA. I would argue then that the election will be won or lost in the suburbs of Toronto. If Ford can stay on message and focus on Wynne's record than he will accomplish this. If he starts going into, or falls into, a debate on same-sex marriage or abortion or some such socially conservative issue that doesn't play well in the GTA than I believe he will lose. I _think_ that's the fear with Doug- that he can be tricked into saying something stupid a la the "my wife is Jewish" debacle during his mayorial run. The PC needs a competent leader to just drive the ship into the election victory harbour as the Liberals have made it past their best before date. They need to hope that Doug doesn't hit rocks on his way in.



If Windsor stays true to form the PC won't have a chance in Windsor. It's a lunch bucket town with a union stranglehold. I believe the dippers from Windsor will hold their office. I certainly don't want to see that, but Windsor constantly shoots itself in the foot when it comes to provincial politics and ends up on the opposition side of the winners.


----------



## pbi (11 Mar 2018)

> 'll form my own opinions, without the MSM. They can't be trusted anymore.



Actually, the "MSM" is a pretty big tent, at least in Canada. At one end it contains the National Post and the Sun Chain, at the middle the Globe and Mail, and at the other The Toronto Star. The CBC (if you read/listen/watch it objectively, as opposed to cherry-picking it), also comes in around the middle of things.

No big surprise really, because most Canadians are, I think, more or less in that "big tent" I mentioned above.

The danger IMHO of dismissing the MSM as an agent of Satan is that you are then left with only the media that is designed to serve a particular narrow slice of opinion. In other words, an intellectual echo chamber where all we hear is what we want to hear. No room for second opinions, or balanced reporting, or thoughtful critique. Just more of the same.


----------



## YZT580 (11 Mar 2018)

Don't forget though that Ford country was able to obtain enough votes to win Toronto in spite of its left-leaning tendancies and his brother was every bit as big a buffoon as Doug is.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (11 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If Windsor stays true to form the PC won't have a chance in Windsor. It's a lunch bucket town with a union stranglehold. I believe the dippers from Windsor will hold their office. I certainly don't want to see that, but Windsor constantly shoots itself in the foot when it comes to provincial politics and ends up on the opposition side of the winners.



That's fair and reasonable based on the impact of the auto unions.


----------



## pbi (11 Mar 2018)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Don't forget though that Ford country was able to obtain enough votes to win Toronto in spite of its left-leaning tendancies and his brother was every bit as big a buffoon as Doug is.



Toronto is a very diverse electorate. Really "left leaning" voters are probably quite few, and tend to be concentrated in the former City of Toronto. The old suburbs, such as the former Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York are more mixed and contain more socially conservative or right of centre folks. But those are only "centre of mass" estimates: the various types of voters are scattered more widely than that.

Rather than being "left leaning" I think that what you would find amongst many 905-416 voters is a resistance to the more extreme socially conservative policies which Granic-Allen was championing. That, IMHO, doesn't make them "left wing" but rather centrist or maybe slightly left of centre. But that said, in all of those areas of T.O there are ethnic communities who are very socially conservative, and who will likely be attracted to Ford.


----------



## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Actually, the "MSM" is a pretty big tent, at least in Canada.



I wonder if most voters get their political information from MSM anymore?


----------



## mariomike (11 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Toronto is a very diverse electorate.



There are 140 neighbourhoods officially recognized by the City of Toronto and upwards of 240 official and unofficial neighbourhoods within the city's boundaries.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Where was the bias?  Where was the opinion?  Did we read the same article?
> 
> Al I could see that even slightly smelled of bias was:
> 
> ...



 Who knows? Maybe nothing. Maybe your right, I don't know. I just have a (un)healthy mistrust of the media. I didn't used to have, but the last decade has made me, probably, over cynical. Left was probably the wrong word as I find the MSM fantasies cover the gambut and I just post too quick sometimes. I've lost all faith in them and they will have to work very hard to convince me they aren't biased. If it was a rundown of the facts like I get from my daily Alexa brief, I wouldn't have a problem. It says things like "Today President Trump flew to Mara Largo for a meeting with <insert name here> to talk about funding <todays plan>. No inference, no commentary, no opinion No Anderson Cooper or Rush Limbough. A simple statement of facts. To me, that's the way the news should be. If I'm interested, I will research further and come to my own conclusion. I really don't care what a journalist has to say on a subject or their impression of something. Most are simply talking heads reading words on a screen or writing there articles based on their personal outlook. Other likely disagree. That's ok. I do what makes me happy, I don't infringe on anyone elses rights. I'm not making anyone listen. The choice is here to ignore me even. The last guy that was perfect got hung up on a cross for his troubles. Correct me if you wish. If you make the case, I'll agree. If you don't, I won't. Pretty simple.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Actually, the "MSM" is a pretty big tent, at least in Canada. At one end it contains the National Post and the Sun Chain, at the middle the Globe and Mail, and at the other The Toronto Star. The CBC (if you read/listen/watch it objectively, as opposed to cherry-picking it), also comes in around the middle of things.
> 
> No big surprise really, because most Canadians are, I think, more or less in that "big tent" I mentioned above.
> 
> The danger IMHO of dismissing the MSM as an agent of Satan is that you are then left with only the media that is designed to serve a particular narrow slice of opinion. In other words, an intellectual echo chamber where all we hear is what we want to hear. No room for second opinions, or balanced reporting, or thoughtful critique. Just more of the same.



There's truth in what you say. However, if I really want to suss something out, I am a more than capable researcher and don't get pigeon holed. I did daily investigations, prepared court briefs and attended court on the prosecution side, some resulting in 5 and six figure fines. I know how to research and the tools that are available to do so. That doesn't mean I have to listen to, or believe, the likes of CBC tell me no whites need apply and trudeau really is a unicorn, because they are the CBC, Canada's most trusted broadcaster. And if CBC isn't Canada's MSM, what is it?


----------



## Remius (11 Mar 2018)

The “MSM” is reporting that Christine Elliott is dropping her challenge and will get behind Ford.  

Good news I guess.  I only hope there hasnt been too much damage done.


----------



## garb811 (11 Mar 2018)

Split this into its own thread as I'm sensing this is going to overwhelm the general politics thread in the run up to the election otherwise.  

Contrary to what you folks in Ontario think, the rest of Canada doesn't (always) revolve around you.   ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Mar 2018)

The only thing, currently, revolving in Ontario is the liebral party circling the drain.


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

:rofl:





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Why wait?
> 
> Absolutely Donald Trump respects women. There's millions of women that have voted for him. So all those millions of women are dumb? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

I'd like to buy some hash off of Doug Ford. Does anybody know if he's still dealing in James Gardens?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I'd like to buy some hash off of Doug Ford. Does anybody know if he's still dealing in James Gardens?


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> I'd like to buy some hash off of Doug Ford. Does anybody know if he's still dealing in James Gardens?



Better luck trying the gas plants in Mississauga and Oakville.


----------



## Journeyman (12 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I see our new favourite phrase is 'bumper sticker this and that". Since when does having a bumper sticker make you a moron or extreme right or left?


I've used it, without apology.  So between pbi and me, that makes....uh, two.  

Only because you asked, it makes one seem an extreme left or right moron (not my words; not my personal attack), if it appears one's 'thinking' is informed solely by clichés and slavishly citing one or two zealot blogs, which merely reaffirm a pre-existing bias, rather than multiple readings that challenge one's views and require one to....well, _think_.


----------



## McG (12 Mar 2018)

You are asking a lot.  Reading AND thinking? It’s too much for one day.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Mar 2018)

Let the scaremongering begin: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kathleen-wynne-doug-ford-brampton-rally-1.4571601



> "The Conservative Party is going into this election with more radically conservative policies than Mike Harris, Tim Hudak or Stephen Harper ever ran on," said Deb Matthews, Liberal MPP and co-chair of Wynne's campaign.
> 
> "The billions in cuts they are promising, and the divisive social conservative policies they are championing will hurt Ontario's economy and change our province for the worse."



Because spending billions you don't have has worked so well thus far?


----------



## mariomike (12 Mar 2018)

I don't know about out of town, but Doug has a lot of supporters in Toronto.
https://vimeo.com/110365134
This was mayoral election night for Doug in 2014.
"The Ford's are the Kennedy's of Canada."

00:50 Tattoo Bob
02:13 Ward 2 Councillor Mike Stirpe Ford
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ford_(politician) 
03:58 "Eff John Tory".   
05:19 Brother Randy Ford ( never seen without his cowboy hat )

This supporter took Doug's loss particularly hard,
https://vimeo.com/110287800
"It's like ISIS coming to Toronto."


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Let the scaremongering begin: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kathleen-wynne-doug-ford-brampton-rally-1.4571601
> 
> Because spending billions you don't have has worked so well thus far?










These Liberal balloons are foreshadowing what the Liberals are going to be doing to tax payers. Well, keep doing I suppose.


----------



## Altair (12 Mar 2018)

http://angusreid.org/ontario-pc-elliott-mulroney-ford/



> Would Ford put the party’s hold on soft voters at risk?
> The brother of the late Toronto mayor Rob Ford and a former mayoral candidate himself, Doug Ford is hardly a political neophyte. Like Elliott, he is viewed favourably by a majority of the Progressive Conservative base, though roughly twice as many in this group have an unfavourable opinion of him as have an unfavourable opinion of her.
> 
> Where Ford’s polarizing nature becomes a disadvantage is among those still deciding whether to support the PCPO in the upcoming election. A full majority of those who say they will “certainly consider” the party have a negative impression of Ford, and nearly as many in the “maybe consider” group say the same.
> ...



All of those disenchanted liberals who would have stayed home for Elliot or Mulroney are going to actively keep out Ford. 

I'm going to call it, Liberals with a minority government. No point in energizing your base if it means you energize your opponents base as well.


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Better luck trying the gas plants in Mississauga and Oakville.



James Gardens in Etobicoke. That's where Doug Ford used to sell dope and supply dealers. It's no big secret.


----------



## Trumpeter42 (12 Mar 2018)

This is laughable. Trump respects women??? He is really good at running businesses into the ground and avoiding the consequences. He can, and has, been bought, many times. The way he conducts business is the absolute worst form of capitalism on earth. Yes, many women voted for him. But was that voting for him or against Clinton? And, actually, more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump.. not buy a small amount, but by millions.

You don't trust the 'MSM' because you think they're biased? Fine, you don't have to. You can learn all you need to know about Trump by listening to the raw words that come out of his own mouth. I can't understand how anyone who has honestly listened to the provable lies, hatred, misogyny, and stupidity, that come out of his mouth would think that he's the best choice to run any democratic government. You don't have to watch 'MSM' to come to that conclusion. The man blatantly does not hide what he is.

America, and the GOP specifically, is going to be recovering from the damage of this 'leader' for decades to come.
    




			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Why wait?
> 
> Absolutely Donald Trump respects women. There's millions of women that have voted for him. So all those millions of women are dumb? I don't think so.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

[quote author=Trumpeter] 

America, and the GOP specifically, is going to be recovering from the damage of this 'leader' for decades to come.
   
[/quote]

US seems to be doing pretty good for itself.

Ontario on the other hand? Not so much.


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

Trumpeter42 said:
			
		

> This is laughable. Trump respects women??? He is really good at running businesses into the ground and avoiding the consequences. He can, and has, been bought, many times. The way he conducts business is the absolute worst form of capitalism on earth. Yes, many women voted for him. But was that voting for him or against Clinton? And, actually, more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump.. not buy a small amount, but by millions.
> 
> You don't trust the 'MSM' because you think they're biased? Fine, you don't have to. You can learn all you need to know about Trump by listening to the raw words that come out of his own mouth. I can't understand how anyone who has honestly listened to the provable lies, hatred, misogyny, and stupidity, that come out of his mouth would think that he's the best choice to run any democratic government. You don't have to watch 'MSM' to come to that conclusion. The man blatantly does not hide what he is.
> 
> America, and the GOP specifically, is going to be recovering from the damage of this 'leader' for decades to come.



Those weren't the poster's opinions. Those were direct quotes from Doug Ford.


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

How badly do you want to get rid of Kathleen Wynne?


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> James Gardens in Etobicoke. That's where Doug Ford used to sell dope and supply dealers. It's no big secret.



Is this the same family of drug that we're going to be selling in stores across Ontario?


By the way have you heard that we spent $650'000 to "design" this sign?







More money well spent in Ontario I say.


----------



## mariomike (12 Mar 2018)

Trumpeter42 said:
			
		

> This is laughable.





			
				Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Those weren't the poster's opinions. Those were direct quotes from Doug Ford.



I forgot to put:

QUOTE

END QUOTE


----------



## PPCLI Guy (12 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> US seems to be doing pretty good for itself.
> 
> Ontario on the other hand? Not so much.



I guess it depends on what one values.  

One persons good is another person's socially liberal smugfest.  

Another person's good would be some else's misogynist, fundamentally racist, mean-spirited, socially antediluvian, dangerously erratic, untrustworthy ally and Christian Right gun-toting NRA enabled kleptocracy designed to extract wealth from the proles and line the pockets of the corporate masters.


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I guess it depends on what one values.
> 
> One persons good is another person's socially liberal smugfest.
> 
> Another person's good would be some else's misogynist, fundamentally racist, mean-spirited, socially antediluvian, dangerously erratic, untrustworthy ally and Christian Right gun-toting NRA enabled kleptocracy designed to extract wealth from the proles and line the pockets of the corporate masters.



Exactly what I was thinking.  Employment rates, shaking up FBI corruption, putting the brakes on the Clinton Foundation. All the bells and whistles


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> James Gardens in Etobicoke. That's where Doug Ford used to sell dope and supply dealers. It's no big secret.



and your proof?


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is this the same family of drug that we're going to be selling in stores across Ontario?
> 
> 
> By the way have you heard that we spent $650'000 to "design" this sign?
> ...



Obviously you missed the point. Do you think it's wrong to say you never took drugs on your CAF application when you had? Maybe if Doug Ford becomes premier he can also legalize heroin for the benefit of his sister Kathryn. Don't get me started on Randy. Rob well he coked himself to death didn't he?


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> and your proof?



Of course the Globe and Mail is mainstream-media-fake-news of course but maybe you'll read this:  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/


----------



## Altair (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Of course the Globe and Mail is mainstream-media-fake-news of course but maybe you'll read this:  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/


Fake news! :tsktsk:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Obviously you missed the point. Do you think it's wrong to say you never took drugs on your CAF application when you had? Maybe if Doug Ford becomes premier he can also legalize heroin for the benefit of his sister Kathryn. Don't get me started on Randy. Rob well he coked himself to death didn't he?



I haven't seen anywhere that Doug Ford has been convicted of any drug offence. Did a couple of quick searches. Lots of innuendo, mostly the Globe & Mail, but no articles on convictions or court cases where he was charged by the Crown. Can you provide a link?


----------



## Pencil Tech (12 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Fake news! :tsktsk:



Absolutely.  :nod:


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Mar 2018)

Recceguy beat me


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Of course the Globe and Mail is mainstream-media-fake-news of course but maybe you'll read this:  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/



This is what I took away from your article

<snip>There's nothing on the public record that The Globe has accessed that shows Doug Ford has ever been criminally charged for illegal drug possession or trafficking. But some of the sources said that, in the affluent pocket of Etobicoke where the Fords grew up, he was someone who sold not only to users and street-level dealers, but to dealers one rung higher than those on the street. His tenure as a dealer, many of the sources say, lasted about seven years until 1986, the year he turned 22. "That was his heyday," said "Robert," one of the former drug dealers who agreed to an interview on the condition he not be identified by name.

Upon being approached, the sources declined to speak if identified, saying they feared the consequences of outing themselves as former users and sellers of illegal drugs.

The Globe also tried to contact retired police officers who investigated drugs in the area at the time. One said he had no recollection of encountering the Fords.

Another, whose name appeared on court documents in relation to allegations of assault and forcible confinement committed by Randy Ford, said he could not recall the incident. Several did not respond. <snip>

So what I see is a lot of innuendo and finger pointing from 'unnamed sources' no one can identify, the all seeing all knowing Globe & Mail, with basically nothing and police officers that are familiar, but don't recall anything.  Have I got that right?


----------



## mariomike (12 Mar 2018)

Doug threatened to sue the Globe and Mail, but did not.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Doug threatened to sue the Globe and Mail, but did not.



As often happens in cases like this. It's almost SOP.


----------



## Trumpeter42 (12 Mar 2018)

In that case, that tells me most of what I need to know about Ford. Thanks!



			
				Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Those weren't the poster's opinions. Those were direct quotes from Doug Ford.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is this the same family of drug that we're going to be selling in stores across Ontario?
> 
> 
> By the way have you heard that we spent $650'000 to "design" this sign?
> ...



Everyone is going to call it 'The Weed Store' another $650,000 of taxpayer money. Probably to another liebral flunky for doing nothing.


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Mar 2018)

Despite all the made up nonsense on Doug Ford's positions and hyperbole on whether he's the Canadian Trump (where have I heard that before coming from the Liberals), the Tories are polling to win approx 84 seats, to NDP 29 and Liberal 11. If the Tories picked Elliott or Mulroney, we might have even seen the polling showing the NDP closer to 20 and the Liberals in single digits. Also pretty telling that the NDP can't even poll higher than the Liberals in popular vote with the Kathleen Wynne trainwreck destroying jobs and making life unaffordable for the traditional NDP blue-collar voters.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4077130/ontario-pc-party-doug-ford/


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Mar 2018)

This is where the PCPO has to take a page out of Steven Harper's book, and control the airwaves. You know that the Liberals are going to go full bore and attempt to paint Mr Ford as the Great Satan, so the conservatives have to own the medium.


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Mar 2018)

Wynne will also do the opposite of Harper, and drop the writ as late as possible to allow as much third party/public sector union spending to dump into campaigns as possible before they become burdened by pesking election donation laws.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Wynne will also do the opposite of Harper, and drop the writ as late as possible to allow as much third party/public sector union spending to dump into campaigns as possible before they become burdened by pesking election donation laws.



I think the Working Famlies Coalition and their sister union organisations were just waiting to see who won the leadership. We might be seeing stuff by the weekend.


----------



## a_majoor (12 Mar 2018)

I'm actually more pleased for reasons not mentioned yet on this board. The very fact that Doug Ford is on the table means that all kinds of issues, many of which the Liberals and deeper down Progressive academics, bureaucrats, media figures and politicians simply don't want to talk about will suddenly be back in play. Prying open the Overton Window and letting in some fresh air into the public sphere is going to allow the resetting of agendas and the retooling of institutions and networks, much like what is happening in Europe and the United States. If our media follows the US media playbook, they will actually end up helping the process, since they will be forced to talk about many of the issues when trying to attack Doug Ford.

We may not like this, and many (even myself) will certainly not agree with some of the outcomes, but the current institutions were built under far different circumstances and social, economic, technological and demographic changes are rendering a lot of them irrelevant or obsolete. The current "elites" are not going to let go without a fight, however, given that this is the source of their powers and privileges. It is certain that there will be a fight to the last taxpayer to decide if the _Optimates_ or _Populares_ will prevail.


----------



## McG (12 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> I don't really know exactly what I will do come voting time. I want these Liberals out, for several reasons, but I had very much hoped for a Red Tory victory in the Ontario PC leadership campaign. Nor, BTW, do I ever want to see the NDP in power in Ontario again. Unfortunately for me (and people like me) Ford does not represent my kind of moderate conservatism.


Have you considered trying your hand as an independent? Be the moderate conservative that others could vote for?


----------



## beirnini (12 Mar 2018)

:facepalm:
Shoehorning allusions to Republican Rome is supremely irrelevant, obsolete and the polar opposite of "fresh air". It's a little amusing that such intellectual "Optimate" airs is deployed in defense and support of those who either haven't the foggiest what is alluded to, or resent and hate the elitism underlying it. These aren't the sharpest (to say nothing of cultured or erudite) knives in the drawer agitating for this so-called "resetting of agendas"  : in Europe and the US. That should really grok one to the defensibility of the project.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (12 Mar 2018)

I have just finished re-reading Taylor Caldwell's "A Pillar of Iron" - the life of Cicero.  It is a thinly disguised screed against he perceived ills of America in the 60s...and a great view of the underbelly of the end of the Republic.  It also happens to be a commentary on today, which suggests that themes are either either recurring or unresolved.


----------



## FJAG (12 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have just finished re-reading Taylor Caldwell's "A Pillar of Iron" - the life of Cicero.  It is a thinly disguised screed against he perceived ills of America in the 60s...and a great view of the underbelly of the end of the Republic.  It also happens to be a commentary on today, which suggests that themes are either either recurring or unresolved.



ff topic:

If you liked Caldwell's work you might also like Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_Rome

Absolutely excellent stuff and a good way to understand the reasons behind the decline of the Roman Republic and rise of the Empire.

 :cheers:


----------



## Loachman (12 Mar 2018)

Ford PCs still poised for majority

http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2835/doug-ford-leadership-march-2018

Amongst those decided an leaning, if an election were held today, the PCs would secure (44%) of the vote. The NDP would secure a quarter (27%) and the Liberals would secure a quarter (23%).

Few would support the Greens (5%) or another party (2%).

_*The PCs would win 84 seats, while the NDP would serve as official opposition with 29. The Liberals would secure 11.*_

“Doug Ford's leadership of the Progressive Conservatives has polarized Ontarians, with half saying they are less likely to vote for the party in the next election," said Dr. Lorne Bozinoff, President of Forum Research. “However, four in ten would still vote for Ford's Conservatives, more than enough to propel Ford into the Premier's office, with a healthy majority.  Despite the positive numbers for the Conservatives under Ford, it seems that Ontarians are not so much accepting Doug Ford and his leadership, as they are rejecting the other alternatives."


----------



## Altair (12 Mar 2018)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Ford PCs still poised for majority
> 
> http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2835/doug-ford-leadership-march-2018
> 
> ...


And time will tell how fluid the vote on the left is.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (12 Mar 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> ff topic:
> 
> If you liked Caldwell's work you might also like Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the steer.  I am on to Rubicon by Tom Holland (guilty admission - another re-read, and I was re-reading the Conn Iggulden series before Taylor Caldwell).  I seem to be on another Roman kick.....


----------



## Retired AF Guy (12 Mar 2018)

FJAG said:
			
		

> ff topic:
> 
> If you liked Caldwell's work you might also like Colleen McCullough's Masters of Rome series:
> 
> ...



I would highly recommend Dan Carlins  Death Throes of the Republic I - VI  podcasts. Carlin also has many other podcasts that look at human history throughout the ages.


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Mar 2018)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I would highly recommend Dan Carlins  Death Throes of the Republic I - VI  podcasts. Carlin also has many other podcasts that look at human history throughout the ages.



Wrath of the Khans is a masterpiece. Mongol history is so interesting.


----------



## pbi (13 Mar 2018)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I'm actually more pleased for reasons not mentioned yet on this board. The very fact that Doug Ford is on the table means that all kinds of issues, many of which the Liberals and deeper down Progressive academics, bureaucrats, media figures and politicians simply don't want to talk about will suddenly be back in play...The current "elites" are not going to let go without a fight, however, given that this is the source of their powers and privileges. It is certain that there will be a fight to the last taxpayer to decide if the _Optimates_ or _Populares_ will prevail.



Maybe. And certainly all institutions need scrutiny and a periodic overhaul. And the Liberals have very clearly fallen prey to "second-term-itis". But I would much prefer that scrutiny and overhaul were done in a logical, measured and intelligent way (you know..."conservative") which examines what is good and what is not.

What I don't want, and what I fear under a populist like Ford (or the likes of Granic-Allen who will probably form part of his tent), is that ithe base will be motivated by ignorance, anger and anecdotally-based beliefs rather than facts. Endlessly squawking about "elites" is usually a warning signal for me, since IMHO it normally refers to those rich and powerful people we DON'T like, as opposed to the rich and powerful people we DO like (or who bankroll our campaigns). It's another dog whistle or bumper sticker. Good for rallying the troops, but solves nothing.

Let me stake out my ground. 

I am not an extreme social conservative, in the sense that I find discrimination on the basis of personal characteristics; the dominance of religion (any religion) in politics, and the rejection of science that interferes with somebody's political, religious or economic agenda to all be repulsive facets of what is often passing for populism in many Western countries these days. In my opinion, this strain of populism runs strongly in Ford's camp, and even more strongly in the groups whose votes he will curry over the next few months. I am a social conservative in the sense that I believe in private property, free enterprise and small business, law and order (including capital punishment), the private ownership of firearms with reasonable restrictions, and the concepts of responsibility and duty.

To be fair, we had a Ford-like character elected as the PC premier years ago, when Harris got in. He is still roundly cursed by many for things like the municipal amalgamations and the downloading of Provincial Highways and paramedic services onto the Counties, Regions and Districts. However, Ontario survived him, relatively intact. And, interestingly enough, Harris never privatized LCBO as  I'm sure he saw what a cash cow it is.

I remain very, very skeptical.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Wrath of the Khans is a masterpiece.



Best Star Trek film ever.   ;D


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> I remain very, very skeptical.



I'm not a fan of populism either.  I also think that Doug Ford does not have a good grasp of complex ideas and is more of a surface kind of guy.  

That being said, I think he'll be surrounded by people that do grasp the complexities of provincial politics.  One thing I will say is that I think that he actually listens.  I just hope he doesn't listen to more extreme voices. 

But, right now as much as I am not a fan of Ford I am a rabid anti Wynne voter and am willing to risk I think the outcome of having him as the Premier while hoping the system can keep him in check.  My best outcome would be a minority situation.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> I remain very, very skeptical.



If Doug looses, he can still have his "grudge match" with Mayor Tory on October 22, 2018. Tory beat him in 2014. 

"What's the story, Mr.Tory?!" Over and over and over again...

Doug is ten years younger than Mayor Tory, ( and eleven years younger than Premier Wynne ) so he has that advantage. 

On the other hand, I think Doug's not looking too well. Not to disparage anyone's appearance, but he's packed on a lot of weight in a short period of time and his face has a sort of florid look.* 

(*Zero days in medical school.) 

If Doug wins, it will mean Mayor Tory will have to go up the street to Queen's Park with hat in hand to ask / beg Doug for permission every time he wants to put in a speed bump. How humiliating! hahaha



			
				Remius said:
			
		

> I also think that Doug Ford does not have a good grasp of complex ideas and is more of a surface kind of guy.



After following Councillor Doug's 2010-2014 career, and his 2014 mayoral campaign, I am inclined to agree.


----------



## ModlrMike (13 Mar 2018)

I think a Conservative minority wouldn't last three months before the Liberals tender a non-confidence motion.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2018)

The amount of money the Liberals wasted, controversies and shady deals are just incredible.

Maybe it's time for a premier who isn't your typical politician.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe it's time for a premier who isn't your typical politician.



That is what Doug accuses others of. 

In this case, Mayor Tory - who defeated him.

Three years later, Doug had this to say about Mayor Tory,

"He is a typical politician that is continuing to look to gouge the little guy."
https://www.cp24.com/doug-ford-to-participate-in-town-hall-on-proposed-budget-says-he-is-still-considering-mayoral-run-1.3281189

Assuming Mayor Tory is re-elected to City Hall this, and Doug gets in at Queen's Park - the next few years should be interesting.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I think a Conservative minority wouldn't last three months before the Liberals tender a non-confidence motion.


That would be a boon for the Tories. The reason why Harper's minority lasted so long was Canadians don't like elections, and to call one 3 months later would sour the last liberal supporters into staying home. Not to mention any election loss for the liberals is going to have them wanting to clean house after 15 years of nepotism and political favours.


----------



## Remius (13 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That would be a boon for the Tories. The reason why Harper's minority lasted so long was Canadians don't like elections, and to call one 3 months later would sour the last liberal supporters into staying home. Not to mention any election loss for the liberals is going to have them wanting to clean house after 15 years of nepotism and political favours.



Not to mention that if the NDP is the official opposition that they won't want to rock the boat too soon.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

Election of Doug Ford as PC leader offers Ontario only 'Toronto-centric' options, says mayor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/doug-ford-pc-ontario-windsor-essex-1.4571935
"McNamara questions Ford's comprehension of provincial issues outside of the Toronto area."

Other than the summer compound in the Muskokas, business in Chicago, and Florida vacations, I doubt Doug has much out of town knowledge.  

His political experience was limited to Ward 2.
https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/97dc-W2map.pdf


----------



## jollyjacktar (13 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe it's time for a premier who isn't your typical politician.



That was what was said about Trump and l concurred at the time.  I have since been eating a ton of crow.  I hope Ontarians don't get into that diet down the road too after June.  Which is to say regardless of who wins they don't suffer buyer's regret.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Mar 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ...[R]egardless of who wins they don't _will_ suffer buyer's regret.



At least, that's my take on it, as someone who's going to experience it first hand.


----------



## jollyjacktar (13 Mar 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> At least, that's my take on it, as someone who's going to experience it first hand.



Sadly, l fear you may be right.  Like the last Federal election, poor choices all around.


----------



## pbi (13 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> I'm not a fan of populism either.  I also think that Doug Ford does not have a good grasp of complex ideas and is more of a surface kind of guy.
> 
> That being said, I think he'll be surrounded by people that do grasp the complexities of provincial politics.  One thing I will say is that I think that he actually listens.  I just hope he doesn't listen to more extreme voices.
> 
> But, right now as much as I am not a fan of Ford I am a rabid anti Wynne voter and am willing to risk I think the outcome of having him as the Premier while hoping the system can keep him in check.  My best outcome would be a minority situation.



Yes. I am beginning to think that is what I want too.  Liberals out, but Ford's more extreme base factions tempered by the need to secure sufficient votes in the Legislature. Hopefully this does not see the NDP as kingmakers, but if the Liberals crash and burn, that may be the  case.


----------



## pbi (13 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I think a Conservative minority wouldn't last three months before the Liberals tender a non-confidence motion.



That might be quite risky for them. As noted earlier, we like living in a democracy but we don't like elections. And we really don't like them too close together. Whoever provokes that might get punished.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> < snip > Ford's more extreme base factions < snip >



Ford Nation has risen from the ashes.  

The Ford Nation song,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF9jsI8id7E

"We want subway trains, not gravy trains!" 

For those who lived in this city those four years, for better or worse, it's deja vu all over again.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2018)

Was Rob Ford a bad mayor?

Was Doug Ford found guilty of selling drugs?


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Was Rob Ford a bad mayor?



Toronto councillors turn their backs to Mayor Rob Ford at City Hall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osI4C5tFUyM


On November 15, 2013 Rob Ford was stripped of power as mayor by Toronto council.

In the history of the city, this was unprecedented.

Councillors decided by a 37-5 vote to cut the mayor’s budget and by a 36-6 vote to transfer many of Ford’s deputies and much of his budget to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly. 

A 32-10 vote decreed Ford could no longer set key matters on the legislative agenda. 

Another 37-5 vote removed the mayor’s right to fill vacancies on the civic appointments committee. 

He retained symbolic powers, and could still attend official functions as Toronto’s mayor, but he no longer had the clout associated with a CEO. 

David Price, Ford's friend and former football coach, who had been hired personally by Ford at twice the salary of others in the mayor's office, was terminated.

As a matter of public safety, his power to govern the city during a State of Emergency was taken away from him, and given to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.

Because he was not a city employee, he could not be fired. He refused to resign. 

So, all the city could do until his term ran out was transfer his power to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Was Doug Ford found guilty of selling drugs?



No.

Did he threaten to sue?
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/globe-investigation-the-ford-familys-history-with-drug-dealing/article12153014/?page=all

Yes.

Did he?

No.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2018)

Ouch. I imagine his mayoral approval rating was rock bottom.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2018)

Again, the fact that he threatened to sue and didn't, means absolutely nothing to the point that he has never been charged.

Whether to sue or not has so many different considerations, the fact that he didn't is invalid and of no bearing to the question of whether he had ever been charged with a drug offence.

IT DOES NOT mean that after consideration, he chose not to in order to hide something, and it should stop being used as a qualifier of implied deceit.


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

It keeps going round and round and round,

QUOTE

An investigative report by The Globe and Mail published in May 2013 alleged that Ford sold hashish at James Gardens for several years in the 1980s, based on interviews with anonymous sources and noting that the newspaper could find no record of drug-related criminal charges against Ford. Ford denied the allegations[8] and accused the newspaper of unfairly targeting his brother, then-Mayor Rob Ford. The newspaper defended its use of anonymous sources at an Ontario Press Council hearing. Ford was never charged with an offence. Ford said he planned to sue the newspaper for libel, but did not do so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Ford_Jr.#Early_life

END QUOTE


----------



## Jed (13 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> It keeps going round and round and round,
> 
> Was Doug Convicted? No. Did he threaten to sue? Yes.


. You really like posting this fact don’t you?


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> . You really like posting this fact don’t you?



Only when this is posted,



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Was Doug Ford found guilty of selling drugs?


----------



## Furniture (13 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> It keeps going round and round and round,
> 
> Was Doug Convicted? No. Did he threaten to sue? Yes.



You're the only one dragging the failure to sue out. Maybe he decided it was not in his financial interests to pay a lawyer for an uncertain outcome. I imagine the paper ran the story past their lawyers to make sure it didn't open them up to anything. You can say a lot of damaging things about someone if you hide behind anonymous sources. 

I'm no Ford fan, and it appears many on here aren't, but referencing to an article from years ago that has no actual substance is starting to get a touch old.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Mar 2018)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> You're the only one dragging the failure to sue out. Maybe he decided it was not in his financial interests to pay a lawyer for an uncertain outcome. I imagine the paper ran the story past their lawyers to make sure it didn't open them up to anything. You can say a lot of damaging things about someone if you hide behind anonymous sources.
> 
> I'm no Ford fan, and it appears many on here aren't, but referencing to an article from years ago that has no actual substance is starting to get a touch old.



Concur. I don't understand the "but he didn't sue" thing.  Is that somehow an admission of guilt? Lack of integrity because he said he would and didn't? Didn't want to line the pockets of lawyers tens of thousands of dollars just to have someone say sorry?


----------



## mariomike (13 Mar 2018)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> You can say a lot of damaging things about someone if you hide behind anonymous sources.



Doug's complaint was given a Hearing by the Ontario Press Council. 

The hearing was run by retired Ontario judge George Thomson, the chief executive officer of the Investment Funds Institute of Canada Joanne De Laurentiis and Drew Gragg, deputy editor of the Ottawa Citizen.

QUOTE

Press Council dismisses complaints against The Globe's Doug Ford investigation; he dismisses the findings
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/press-council-rules-globes-use-of-anonymous-sources-in-doug-ford-story-deemed-justifiable/article14882985/
The Globe and Mail's use of anonymous sources in a story about Toronto councillor Doug Ford's alleged ties to the drug trade was justifiable, the Ontario Press Council ruled in a decision that dismissed concerns about the reporting.

END QUOTE

I was replying to this,



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Was Doug Ford found guilty of selling drugs?



There was no conviction because it was not a criminal case. It was a newspaper story.

Part of the newspaper story was the complaint to and Hearing with the Ontario Press Council. 

That, and his threat to sue the newspaper, make it part of the news story.

Again, there was no conviction, because it was not a criminal case.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (13 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That would be a boon for the Tories. The reason why Harper's minority lasted so long was Canadians don't like elections, and to call one 3 months later would sour the last liberal supporters into staying home. Not to mention any election loss for the liberals is going to have them wanting to clean house after 15 years of nepotism and political favours.



The reason Harper's minority lasted so long is that it took that long to convince a plurality of the ridings across Canada (read- Ontario) to vote CPC. 

2011- 166 seats (73 Ontario)
2008- 143 seats (51 Ontario)
2006- 124 seats (40 ontario)


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> The reason Harper's minority lasted so long is that it took that long to convince a plurality of the ridings across Canada (read- Ontario) to vote CPC.
> 
> 2011- 166 seats (73 Ontario)
> 2008- 143 seats (51 Ontario)
> 2006- 124 seats (40 ontario)



Correlation does not equal causation. 

Harper did not call an election because he thought he'd win more seats in Ontario, he does not strike anyone as a gambler in that fashion. He dissolved Parliament after Dion took over the Liberals and started voting against government motions in lockstep with the NDP and Bloc, making a non-confidence vote highly likely. He ripped the band-aid off and won a majority because no one wanted to see an election again so soon (1 million less people voted in 2008 vice 2006) coupled with an absolutely terrible campaign by Dion (Liberals lost 800,000 voters) and the Liberal Party.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Correlation does not equal causation.
> 
> Harper did not call an election because he thought he'd win more seats in Ontario, he does not strike anyone as a gambler in that fashion. He dissolved Parliament after Dion took over the Liberals and started voting against government motions in lockstep with the NDP and Bloc, making a non-confidence vote highly likely. He ripped the band-aid off and won a majority because no one wanted to see an election again so soon (1 million less people voted in 2008 vice 2006) coupled with an absolutely terrible campaign by Dion (Liberals lost 800,000 voters) and the Liberal Party.



Or because Michael Ignatieff lost the support of the suburbs around Toronto, which went to the Conservatives. Saying it was because of elections is a factor, but I would say it wasn't THE factor. The tide, theoretically, in Ontario could have turned to the Liberals (which it tellingly did again in 2015) had Ignatieff run a better campaign or had the "orange crush" not have effected the campaign, etc, etc, etc. That the CPC vote only went up 3% (36.27% to 39.62%) but resulted in a 23 seat variation, the same number of seats they won in the GTA/Hamilton/Niagara. Which is, in another thread, what the CPC needs to do to win any future elections- find a way to take 23 of 50 GTA seats. Seeing the CPC do as well in the GTA in the future is hard, especially in a situation where a CPC can beat the LPC leader in Etobicoke.

It segues into the actual Ontario discussion and what the OPC need to do- focus on gaining enough seats in the GTA and Ottawa to avoid a minority win, or if Doug does something crazy enough, a minority loss. They need to learn from the Manitoba PCs- the rural areas will largely vote for you, so pandering to issues that wont play well in the major urban centres (in their case, Winnipeg) wont accomplish anything other than guarantee constant defeat.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Concur. I don't understand the "but he didn't sue" thing.  Is that somehow an admission of guilt? Lack of integrity because he said he would and didn't? Didn't want to line the pockets of lawyers tens of thousands of dollars just to have someone say sorry?



To be honest the whole drug thing is over.  We’re past that.  It’s already out there and people can do what they want with that info.  

As to the not suing thing.  It isn’t technically an admission of guilt.  But it is well known that if you are slandered unfairly and with no proof you can sue for damages.  The problem is that you have to air a lot of dirty laundry in court.  It’s the reason politicians have parliamentary privilege.  To avoid getting sued so long as what they say is said under legislative context like in the House of Commons.  They won’t repeat it outside the house in public because they will get sued for slander if they can’t back up what they say.  

So if the fords were truly slandered, they could have sued.  But didn’t despite threatning to.  If it was slander it would have been a slam dunk, get a lot of money or get a retraction.  But that didn’t happen so creates an atmosphere where one might think he had something to hide or didn’t want the story tested in a court of law. 

So not guilty.  But it leaves people to wonder.  Like when people choose to remain silent when arrested or refuse to let a cop into their home without a warrant.  They may not be guilty of anything but they sure look like they have something to hide despite them exercising their rights.  

“That’s slander and I’m suing!”.  Are you ready to test that in court?  “Never mind.”

Either way, I don’t think the drug dealing allegations are all that relevant now.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

What is, totally, completely and unreservedly irrelevant is that he said he'd sue and didn't. I wish I had a dollar for every person that's threatened to sue and didn't. Then I could pay a lawyer to explain it ;D


----------



## pbi (14 Mar 2018)

> It segues into the actual Ontario discussion and what the OPC need to do- focus on gaining enough seats in the GTA and Ottawa to avoid a minority win, or if Doug does something crazy enough, a minority loss. They need to learn from the Manitoba PCs- the rural areas will largely vote for you, so pandering to issues that wont play well in the major urban centres (in their case, Winnipeg) wont accomplish anything other than guarantee constant defeat.



I agree that the Tories in Ontario will do well in rural ridings and in smaller centres, but I think they could make surprising gains in urban ridings too. As Ford Nation demonstrated, cities are not monolithic blocs of centrist voters, or "lefties". There are all sorts of fracture lines on economic, social and ethnic lines inside any big city.

Ford's  folksy, "let's git them elites" approach will play equally well in Kapuskasing, Timmins, St Thomas, Pembroke, Mississauga and Etobicoke. Don't take anything for granted. Just watch him go.

You don't have to like someone to respect their ability to win.


----------



## Journeyman (14 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> You don't have to like someone to respect their ability to win.


Hey, that could be a catchy..... bumper sticker.   :stirpot:

   ;D


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> So if the fords were truly slandered, they could have sued.  But didn’t despite threatning to.



QUOTE

Here's a list of people the Fords have threatened to sue, and then not sued
https://nowtoronto.com/news/heres-a-list-of-people-the-fords-have-threatened-to-sue-and-then-not-sued/
Rob and Doug Ford's long history of not taking legal action against people

END QUOTE




			
				pbi said:
			
		

> As Ford Nation demonstrated, cities are not monolithic blocs of centrist voters, or "lefties". There are all sorts of fracture lines on economic, social and ethnic lines inside any big city.



Anyone who has witnessed a Ford Fest can see that. They certainly attract some local "characters". 

Doug had this to say regarding the highlighted part of your post,

QUOTE

Doug on Toronto radio: “I understand — just had a call saying the black community will not be supporting Rob Ford. That is the furthest from the truth. He’s going to have more votes in the black community than President Obama. You know that, everyone else knows that.” 
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/07/21/rob_ford_more_popular_with_black_voters_than_obama_doug_ford_claims.html

Doug on CNN: “Everyone keeps saying Rob’s a conservative. He’s a HUGE, MASSIVE social liberal. He LOVES Obama. The headlines of the papers when he won? ‘The White Obama.’ 
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/11/18/rob_ford_hailed_as_the_white_obama_doug_ford_tells_cnn.html

END QUOTE


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> QUOTE
> 
> Here's a list of people the Fords have threatened to sue, and then not sued
> https://nowtoronto.com/news/heres-a-list-of-people-the-fords-have-threatened-to-sue-and-then-not-sued/
> ...


Sounds like someone down south of Canada, but north of Mexico.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Sounds like someone down south of Canada, but north of Mexico.


Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true. It's almost like you write for Maclean's, who are in full court press to support the Wynne Liberals.


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true.



Right. But, whether we choose to agree, or disagree, he's not the only one,
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&source=hp&ei=uC6pWsD5HYr4jwSutJLIBQ&q=%22doug+ford%22+trump&oq=%22doug+ford%22+trump&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1j0i22i30k1.1805.9329.0.9919.18.17.0.0.0.0.175.2336.0j17.17.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.17.2327.0..0j0i131k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1j0i3k1.0.6bFBa3nc0Bo


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Right. But, whether we choose to agree, or disagree, he's not the only one,
> https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&source=hp&ei=uC6pWsD5HYr4jwSutJLIBQ&q=%22doug+ford%22+trump&oq=%22doug+ford%22+trump&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39k1j0i22i30k1.1805.9329.0.9919.18.17.0.0.0.0.175.2336.0j17.17.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.17.2327.0..0j0i131k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1j0i3k1.0.6bFBa3nc0Bo


I mean, if you can Google it, it must be true, right? :facepalm:


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true.





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Right. But, whether we choose to agree, or disagree, he's not the only one,





			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I mean, if you can Google it, it must be true, right? :facepalm:



I actually _agreed_  with you, PuckChaser. ( double face palm )


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just because you keep saying something, doesn't make it true. It's almost like you write for Maclean's, who are in full court press to support the Wynne Liberals.


Oh? Has Trump not said he's going to sue this newspaper, that newspaper, that group of women, or that journalist, only to not do squat in the end?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-22-times-trump-has-threatened-to-sue-someone-during-this-campaign/


> On June 30, 2015*, Trump threatened to sue Univision over the Miss USA pageant. He sued.
> On July 2, 2015, Trump threatened to sue the National Hispanic Media Coalition after it called one his speeches a “bigoted, racist, anti-Latino rant.”
> On Sept. 21, 2015, Trump threatened to sue the Club for Growth, a D.C.-based nonprofit, over negative ads.
> On Sept. 22, 2015, Trump threatened to sue StopTrump.us over selling anti-Trump shirts.
> ...



And I'm not pro Wynne liberals, I'm anti Doug Ford.

If Elliot or Mulroney had won I would be counting down the days till Wynne was out of office, instead I'm praying Doug Ford finds a way to screw this up like all the other recent PC leaders.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

Maybe we should stop talking about trump in Canadian politics unless it's directly related to policy and affecting Canada.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe we should stop talking about trump in Canadian politics unless it's directly related to policy and affecting Canada.


Doug is going to draw Trump comparisons.


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe we should stop talking about trump in Canadian politics unless it's directly related to policy and affecting Canada.





			
				Altair said:
			
		

> Doug is going to draw Trump comparisons.



Hopefully, Doug will get the message.  
http://www.azquotes.com/author/24760-Doug_Ford_Jr


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Doug is going to draw Trump comparisons.



Yup. You're certainly helping with it.



> Sounds like someone down south of Canada, but north of Mexico.


----------



## pbi (14 Mar 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hey, that could be a catchy..... bumper sticker.   :stirpot:
> 
> ;D


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yup. You're certainly helping with it.


If the shoe fits.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> If the shoe fits.


fits just like a vagina hat.


----------



## pbi (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe we should stop talking about trump in Canadian politics unless it's directly related to policy and affecting Canada.



That might be like talking about the Canadian economy and leaving the US out of it. IMHO Trump already has iconic meaning for people on both sides of the political spectrum in Canada. Two somewhat weird but public examples:

[urlhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/zabel-hat-decision-1.4285487][/url]

and

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/hamilton-city-council-trump-hat-1.3860648

I think that to some Canadians he is The Fourth Horseman of Fascism, while to others he is The Whipper of Liberals. He is part of the dialogue now. But, how about this:

"_the first one to mention Trump loses_"


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

Agreed but I was talking more about the "just like Trump lol" type comments.


----------



## PuckChaser (14 Mar 2018)

The intense desire of the Liberal and NDP parties in Canada to try to shoehorn Conservative leaders into "evil American Republican" comparisons is just an attempt at character assassination and to control the media message about those Tory leaders. It happened with Harper as he was constantly compared to Bush Jr, Ford to Trump, and Scheer to being "evil Harper lite". It's the same identity politics that the left uses to control the vote right down to the smallest sub-sub-sub minority. Its almost at the point of Goodwin's law, where if you bring out a Trump comparison, you've just jumped the shark on any credibility your arguments had.

Mike: It's incredibly hard to figure out whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you're posting a non-committal one liner and a Google link that looks at quick glance that you're agreeing with Altair.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The intense desire of the Liberal and NDP parties in Canada to try to shoehorn Conservative leaders...


I'll stop you right there.

This wouldn't be happening with Elliot or Mulroney. 

The PCs decided to pick the most polarizing figure as their leader, this is what happens when they do that.

To top it off, I did not say Doug was like Donald in every sense, I said Doug was like Donald in that sense. Both talk a good game about suing people for things they say, both fail to execute.


----------



## Jed (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The intense desire of the Liberal and NDP parties in Canada to try to shoehorn Conservative leaders into "evil American Republican" comparisons is just an attempt at character assassination and to control the media message about those Tory leaders. It happened with Harper as he was constantly compared to Bush Jr, Ford to Trump, and Scheer to being "evil Harper lite". It's the same identity politics that the left uses to control the vote right down to the smallest sub-sub-sub minority. Its almost at the point of Goodwin's law, where if you bring out a Trump comparison, you've just jumped the shark on any credibility your arguments had.
> 
> Mike: It's incredibly hard to figure out whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you're posting a non-committal one liner and a Google link that looks at quick glance that you're agreeing with Altair.


Great point, Puckchaser.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The intense desire of the Liberal and NDP parties in Canada to try to shoehorn Conservative leaders into "evil American Republican" comparisons is just an attempt at character assassination and to control the media message about those Tory leaders. It happened with Harper as he was constantly compared to Bush Jr, Ford to Trump, and Scheer to being "evil Harper lite". It's the same identity politics that the left uses to control the vote right down to the smallest sub-sub-sub minority. Its almost at the point of Goodwin's law, where if you bring out a Trump comparison, you've just jumped the shark on any credibility your arguments had.
> 
> Mike: It's incredibly hard to figure out whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you're posting a non-committal one liner and a Google link that looks at quick glance that you're agreeing with Altair.



Great point.


----------



## Underway (14 Mar 2018)

Why isn't Trump compared to Rob Ford?  Lets be honest, this whole thing started in TO blew into the US and then blew back here...  To think we haven't been populist is ignorant of our history.

As for those who regret not signing up to vote, don't worry about it.  I tried, they took my money and didn't mail me my login/password info in time, like thousands of others.  Pathetic.  Green it is this year, at least they have some conservative policies in their platform.


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Mike: It's incredibly hard to figure out whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you're posting a non-committal one liner and a Google link that looks at quick glance that you're agreeing with Altair.





			
				Underway said:
			
		

> Why isn't Trump compared to Rob Ford?  Lets be honest, this whole thing started in TO blew into the US and then blew back here...  To think we haven't been populist is ignorant of our history.



I am not arguing about the sources that compare Doug with you-know-who.

I merely wanted to point out that - like it, or not - comparisons are being made. If not here, they are being made elsewhere.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> Why isn't Trump compared to Rob Ford?  Lets be honest, this whole thing started in TO blew into the US and then blew back here...  To think we haven't been populist is ignorant of our history.
> 
> As for those who regret not signing up to vote, don't worry about it.  I tried, they took my money and didn't mail me my login/password info in time, like thousands of others.  Pathetic.  Green it is this year, at least they have some conservative policies in their platform.


Some did compare Trump to Rob Ford during the primaries.

But then he won and was instantly more important than Rob ever was.

All three men have the same underlying message, don't trust the media, running against the elites, swearing to stop the gravy train or drain the swamp. Oh, and lying through their teeth.


----------



## Journeyman (14 Mar 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ...... if you bring out a Trump comparison, you've just jumped the shark on any credibility your arguments had.


I can understand how it may seem that way to an ardent Trump supporter -- you know, the type who sees absolutely no incongruity between using "Trump"  and "credibility" in the same sentence (that whole stunning track-record of compulsive lying; policy reversals; mindless tweets; saying 'A' but then when it sinks in _even with him_  how incredibly stupid it was, catagorically states "I never said 'A' "....).

Now, because this IS the Ontario politics thread.... I'm withholding judgement on Ford; I'll have to see how things shape up.  But the last thing I would do is assess him based solely on how much//how little he is like Trump.  

That could diminish any credibility I may have.   :nod:


----------



## Furniture (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Oh, and lying through their teeth.



I think you'd be hard pressed to find an elected politician of any stripe that doesn't do that on a regular basis. 

It will be interesting to see how the PCs deal with the inevitable comparisons between the POTUS and Ford. I imagine their best strategy would be to ignore the comparisons and focus on the Liberal's track record on the economy. Maybe push the change narrative, and focus on positives like tax cuts. Who doesn't love a tax cut?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see how the PCs deal with the inevitable comparisons between the POTUS and Ford. I imagine their best strategy would be to ignore the comparisons and focus on the Liberal's track record on the economy.



Which is what we're going to deal with here. Back on track folks and keep it relative to the point of the thread. ONTARIO Politics. Comments like "That guy down south" add nothing to the conversation except tangents. Save yourself the typing if they don't contribute to the discussion. They'll likely be removed anyway. Comparing Ford to anyone requires a point to be made that is relevant. Stating only "Ford is just like <name here>" won't cut it.

Tanks!


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Which is what we're going to deal with here. Back on track folks and keep it relative to the point of the thread. ONTARIO Politics. Comments like "That guy down south" add nothing to the conversation except tangents. Save yourself the typing if they don't contribute to the discussion. They'll likely be removed anyway. Comparing Scheer to anyone requires a point to be made that is relevant. Stating only "Ford is just like <name here>" won't cut it.
> 
> Tanks!


Political A does something.

Politician B does something similar. 

If politician B isn't in the same jurisdiction as politician A should it not be mentioned that those two politicians have done similar things in the past?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> Political A does something.
> 
> Politician B does something similar.
> 
> If politician B isn't in the same jurisdiction as politician A should it not be mentioned that those two politicians have done similar things in the past?



Is anyone else having problems understanding what my Staff post meant? I thought it was pretty clear.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Is anyone else having problems understanding what my Staff post meant? I thought it was pretty clear.


It was simply a question.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

Altair said:
			
		

> It was simply a question.


Annnnnnnnd since people like to be passive agressive via milpoints, for example, could one compare;

Wynne's actions to Trudeau?

Horwath actions to Notley?

Ford actions to Sheer?

If it's a no, it's a no, simple question.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

To be honest, I do think the Ford/Trump comparison is relevant to the Ontario election. 

Because for better or for worse people will make that comparison and vote that way.  It matters because it will be interesting to see how the Liberals will use that narrative and how Ford will defend against it and if voters will buy it. 

But if one wants to be objective, one has to look at the man and the policies.  I don't think that Ford the man is anything like Trump.  But from a limited policy perspective (I say limited because it is difficult to compare provincial areas and jurisdictions to a foreign national jurisdiction) and from a political tactic side of things their are not all that dissimilar.  Ford though, having to try and win the PR war from the get go, does have the advantage that his own party/side isn't out to get him (yet I suppose). 

I have to say that listening to a few interviews with him, some of his answers did turn combative when he was questioned on some of the finer details of his platform.  
He'll need to polish that up a bit.  Not sold on him yet but I am paying attention.


----------



## jollyjacktar (14 Mar 2018)

I am glad it's not my election, as l would be hard pressed on what to do.  None of the options look attractive to me.  Much like the Federal side of things.


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

Underway said:
			
		

> Lets be honest, this whole thing started in TO blew into the US and then blew back here...  To think we haven't been populist is ignorant of our history.





			
				Remius said:
			
		

> To be honest, I do think the Ford/Trump comparison is relevant to the Ontario election.



If you wish, the discussion of the Ford Nation / MAGA movements can be split into a Canadian Politics thread of its own.

Those who wish to discuss it, may do so in its own thread.

Those who do not wish to, don't have to.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I am glad it's not my election, as l would be hard pressed on what to do.  None of the options look attractive to me.  Much like the Federal side of things.



 I don't have any difficulty making a choice. I watched Bob Rae kill the province with the NDP and I've seen Wynne and McGuinty do the same. The Trillium Party, et al. have a long way to go before they are a viable option. 

I already know the wynne liberals. Not an option.
Horvath is already talking millions in social programs. Not and option.
Fringe Parties. Not viable and wasted vote.
Protest votes are a waste and have unintended, dire consequences. Like the NDP coming to power with Bob Rae on a protest vote. Nobody wanted them, but people were pissed at the PCs and liberals and were surprised and befuddled when they won. 

If you want to throw your vote away, go ahead. Not my business, but if you gamble and waste it on a protest vote, there's no crying when you get surprised.

That leaves the PCs. I will vote my local PC candidate. If Doug Ford is still in charge, I will accept him as Premier, or any other PC that happens in that spot.

The leadership vote is over. There is nothing left to argue. Not who you think should have won or why. That one has left the building. Moot point.
Ford is not Trump. They are both males, that's about it. Besides, the laws, government, politics don't even mirror ours, except your personal view of who represents good and who is evil.

I am going to watch it all carefully, but barring some sort of drug induced epiphany, I will be voting PC, even if I wasn't already a member.

The rear view mirror is smaller than the windshield for a reason.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

Not sure it needs a seperate thread info discussed in the context of Ontario politics.  Doug Ford will bring a populist approach to this election and as such the same approach to his politics.  

He is a populist and very polarizing and this will factor in to Ontario politics.  We likely would not be having this were it anyone else at the PC helm as someone mentioned but we can’t change that fact now.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Ford is not Trump. They are both males, that's about it.



Not quite but your point is taken.  The problem is that some will see a few similarities and assume the rest is the same.  On some points they are similar and on other side they are polar opposites.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Not quite but your point is taken.  The problem is that some will see a few similarities and assume the rest is the same.  On some points they are similar and on other side they are polar opposites.



Yup. The same similarities that millions of others share. Only makes them good or evil in the eyes of the beholders. There is no meaningful comparison that'll make any kind of difference. Just extra drum beating at 07:30 on a Sunday. Noise for no reason, other than pissing off the neighbours.

But don't let me stop anyone discussing fascinating hypotheticals. It's going to happen anyway.


----------



## Jarnhamar (14 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Not quite but your point is taken.  The problem is that some will see a few similarities and assume the rest is the same.  On some points they are similar and on other side they are polar opposites.



Does it really matter though? Would any conservative candidate get away from being compared to Donald Trump or even "basically Hitler"?  Or any Liberal candidate not to be painted as a snow flake/beta male whatever?

It's pretty much common SOP for one side to find the worst possible icon to compare their opponent to.

Does anyone actually think Wynne isn't the worst possible choice for Premier of Ontario?  The only person who can remove her from her position right now is Doug Ford.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yup. The same similarities that millions of others share. Only makes them good or evil in the eyes of the beholders. There is no meaningful comparison that'll make any kind of difference. Just extra drum beating at 07:30 on a Sunday. Noise for no reason, other than pissing off the neighbours.
> 
> But don't let me stop anyone discussing fascinating hypotheticals. It's going to happen anyway.




Well if we look at what counts.  

Both share the following:  Populist approach to politics.  Both claim to represent the little guy.  Both aren’t really from the little guy world and born with or inherited silver spoons.  Both tend to shoot from the mouth.  Both also speak plainly.  Both have checkered questionable pasts but for different reasons.  Both claim to fight against the system and the elites.  Both seem to only have a basic grasp of things like the economy, or how government works.  Both have made some interesting claims and both are in similar situations that the US just faced in 2016.  A polarizing anti establishment candidate facing an unpopular establishment candidate.


But...

Ford as far as I know doesn’t have the same reputation with women that Trump has. He hasn’t displayed the level of disrespect Trump did towards various individuals and or groups.  Ford has a very good relationship with immigrants and minorities.  Ford also seems to be sticking to his message about less government etc without calling for Wynne to be thrown in jail.  

Like I mentioned before Ford the man is nothing like Trump but politically and policy wise they share a lot in common.  But that’s just an opinion. One that I try to temper with as much objectivity as I can. The other thing is that’s his brother was compared to Trump and that might the problem as he is compared to his brother as well and people mix them up a lot.

That’s the problem with legacy candidates.  They carry their legacies with them.  Trudeau, Clinton, Mulroney etc.


----------



## Remius (14 Mar 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does it really matter though? Would any conservative candidate get away from being compared to Donald Trump or even "basically Hitler"?  Or any Liberal candidate not to be painted as a snow flake/beta male whatever?
> 
> It's pretty much common SOP for one side to find the worst possible icon to compare their opponent to.
> 
> Does anyone actually think Wynne isn't the worst possible choice for Premier of Ontario?  The only person who can remove her from her position right now is Doug Ford.



True. It shouldn’t matter but it does.   Because some of those things can sway some people.  Mulroney and Elliott would never have been compared to Trump.  But I’m sure Mulroney’s father and Elliotts link to Stephen Harper via her husband would have as well.  See my last post on legacy candidates. 

On the Wynne being the worst choice I agree. Tenfold.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Well if we look at what counts.
> 
> Both share the following:  Populist approach to politics.  Both claim to represent the little guy.  Both aren’t really from the little guy world and born with or inherited silver spoons.  Both tend to shoot from the mouth.  Both also speak plainly.  Both have checkered questionable pasts but for different reasons.  Both claim to fight against the system and the elites.  Both seem to only have a basic grasp of things like the economy, or how government works.  Both have made some interesting claims and both are in similar situations that the US just faced in 2016.  A polarizing anti establishment candidate facing an unpopular establishment candidate.
> 
> ...



I won't stop anyone from saying what they will.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45 (14 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> I agree that the Tories in Ontario will do well in rural ridings and in smaller centres, but I think they could make surprising gains in urban ridings too. As Ford Nation demonstrated, cities are not monolithic blocs of centrist voters, or "lefties". There are all sorts of fracture lines on economic, social and ethnic lines inside any big city.
> 
> Ford's  folksy, "let's git them elites" approach will play equally well in Kapuskasing, Timmins, St Thomas, Pembroke, Mississauga and Etobicoke. Don't take anything for granted. Just watch him go.
> 
> You don't have to like someone to respect their ability to win.



I agree 100% that they can make gains in the urban ridings if they stick to the key messages of fiscal prudence and hammer the liberals on record. If the Liberals can get Ford to veer off into things like Niqabs, abortion, gay marriage, etc etc than it will be a much harder sell. Not to say he will, but I can imagine that will be the Liberal tactic.


----------



## Furniture (14 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> I agree 100% that they can make gains in the urban ridings if they stick to the key messages of fiscal prudence and hammer the liberals on record. If the Liberals can get Ford to veer off into things like *Niqabs*, abortion, gay marriage, etc etc than it will be a much harder sell. Not to say he will, but I can imagine that will be the Liberal tactic.



I think that is one thing he won't touch no matter how much baiting by the Liberals. As has been said before by several commentators he does well with the immigration issue, and has doesn't play race politics. 

I just read in a McLean's article that the NDP are gaining in the latest polls, and that their leader is by far the most popular in polling as well. I'm slightly concerned that the fear of the Rae era won't be strong enough to keep the NDP out if the Liberals and PCs spend the whole campaign only taking shots at each other sparing the NDP.


----------



## Altair (14 Mar 2018)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think that is one thing he won't touch no matter how much baiting by the Liberals. As has been said before by several commentators he does well with the immigration issue, and has doesn't play race politics.
> 
> I just read in a McLean's article that the NDP are gaining in the latest polls, and that their leader is by far the most popular in polling as well. I'm slightly concerned that the fear of the Rae era won't be strong enough to keep the NDP out if the Liberals and PCs spend the whole campaign only taking shots at each other sparing the NDP.


like I said,  the vote on the left is fluid.


----------



## ModlrMike (14 Mar 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> I agree 100% that they can make gains in the urban ridings if they stick to the key messages of fiscal prudence and hammer the liberals on record. If the Liberals can get Ford to veer off into things like Niqabs, abortion, gay marriage, etc etc than it will be a much harder sell. Not to say he will, but I can imagine that will be the Liberal tactic.



Yes, he has to avoid taking the bait. 

If Mr Ford can steer the 905/416 towards the blue team, I wonder if there will be any knock on effect at the federal level considering that election is one year later. As said elsewhere, the Conservatives can form the government without taking Quebec.


----------



## mariomike (14 Mar 2018)

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> I think that is one thing he won't touch no matter how much baiting by the Liberals. As has been said before by several commentators he does well with the immigration issue, and has doesn't play race politics.



I don't follow party politics. Never have. Probably never will. 

However, I do follow City Hall. Because those politicians vote for our pay, retirement benefits and pension. 

Even though I had already retired by then, as a resident, I followed the ups and downs of Ford Nation in the 2010 - 2014 era. 

Never saw anything like it before, or since. 

As far as voters are concerned, here is where I believe Ford Nation did well, and not so well in the city,

FN has more immigrants, more single parents, more people on social assistance, more low-income earners, more people in neighbourhoods with falling incomes, more people with fewer transit options, fewer people with university degrees, fewer people whose first language is English, more people living in ( non-luxury ) highrises.

You can read the details in the 2014 election results. ( The year Doug ran for mayor. )

No idea how FN will do out of town. But, I guess they will do ok in the 905.

It is worth mentioning that Ford Nation has held Ward 2 since 2000.

First Rob, then Doug, then Mike Ford "inherited" it.

To understand Ford Nation, it helps to understand Ward 2. Maybe even take a drive around it. Stop at the Steak Queen for lunch.

You may, or may not, also wish to attend the next Ford Fest.


----------



## pbi (15 Mar 2018)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Yes, he has to avoid taking the bait. ..



He may already be drifting toward the edge of the swamp with his comments about limiting abortions for minors and "scrapping" the provincial sex education curriculum.

The first of these (abortion limitation) actually makes sense to me: if that had been our daughter when she was a minor, my wife and I would certainly have wanted to know about it, and have a say.  However, if that morphs into an all-out move against abortion, he may harm himself.

The second, I'm not so sure about. Sex education has been around since I was in high school in the early 1970s, apparently without leading to the triumph of Satan just yet. To me (and I think, millions of other Canadians), it's just another part of teaching health. I haven't read the curriculum, but my cousin (a public school teacher in Kitchener) tells me that it's fairly innocuous, and that in their school board most of the resistance appeared to be coming from certain immigrant groups known for extreme social conservatism. (A point of view to which they are quite entitled) From what I saw in the media coverage of protests in the GTA, that seemed to hold true as well. Doug seems to want to get the votes of immigrant communities (a fine objective, within reason) so he might have to be careful not to veer too far to that side.

If he navigates these waters well, and focuses on what matters to the great majority of votes (our wallets and our health), then he can do well. If I see more of that sort of pragmatic, moderate conservatism, and less of the  rampant populism and appeal to medievalism, I will vote Tory. I want these Liberals out too, but I want to vote with a clear conscience, not just a protest vote.


----------



## Strike (15 Mar 2018)

I'm curious to see who he's going to hire to run his campaign.  I know the guy who ran Rob Ford's campaign has had some personal issue in the recent past but has worked hard to overcome them.  The same guy ran Christie Clark's campaign out west and John Tory's back in Toronto too.  His team is pretty darned good.


----------



## mariomike (15 Mar 2018)

Strike said:
			
		

> I know the guy who ran Rob Ford's campaign has had some personal issue in the recent past but has worked hard to overcome them.



Nick was the architect of Rob’s “Stop the gravy train” campaign.

He later helped Toronto firefighters battle Rob's proposed cuts to TFD.

Rob had ordered a 10 per cent budget reduction from all departments and emergency services were not exempt.

When faced with the threat of 300 city firefighters being laid off, their union hired Nick for their "Not Gravy" offensive against Rob.

The union - with Nick's assistance - launched an aggressive campaign to characterize the proposed cuts as “dangerous” and a serious threat to public safety.

In the past the firefighters have endorsed and campaigned for Premier McGuinty and the provincial Liberals. 

They were certainly no fans of provincial Conservative leader Tim Hudak.

Doug also had to make a written apology to our Chief of Police.

QUOTE

Toronto police chief accepts Doug Ford's written apology for 'payback' comment
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-police-chief-accepts-doug-ford-s-written-apology-for-payback-comment-1.1959917

Firefighters union issues anti-Hudak letter
http://torontosun.com/2014/06/04/firefighters-union-issues-anti-hudak-letter/wcm/f188f9a0-aeb6-453c-bcd7-5da6eeae3e74

Kathleen Wynne makes a campaign stop at the Burlington's Appleby GO Station, where she was greeted firefighters who turned out to support the Grits.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/06/campaign_notes_tales_from_the_trail.html
How can you tell you’re at a Liberal campaign event? Look for beefy firefighters in yellow T-shirts.

As they did for former premier Dalton McGuinty, Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association members are turning out in droves to help the Grits.

Again in the 2011 election, they deployed a yellow RV painted with a “Firefighters for McGuinty” banner, hitting more than 60 campaign stops and drowning out protesters when needed.

Wynne’s move expanded what McGuinty did seven years ago to help the firefighters who were also key supporters during his 2007 and 2011 campaigns.

Ontario election 2014: OPP officers' union launches anti-Hudak ads
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-votes-2014/ontario-election-2014-opp-officers-union-launches-anti-hudak-ads-1.2661984
Ads don't mention job cuts, but focus on collective bargaining, arbitration, pensions

Doug Ford, firefighters union clash over fire truck
 https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04/19/doug_ford_firefighters_union_clash_over_fire_truck.html
Doug Ford also criticized public service union leaders in general, noting his he and his brother “differentiate between labour and labour leadership.”

END QUOTE

The "labour leadership" were elected by us, to stand up for us, with politicians.

If 2007, 2011, and 2014 are any indications...


----------



## Strike (15 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Nick was the architect of Rob’s “Stop the gravy train” campaign.
> 
> He later helped Toronto firefighters battle Rob's proposed cuts to TFD.
> 
> ...



It's a testament to his abilities when all sides have hired him.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> The second, I'm not so sure about. Sex education has been around since I was in high school in the early 1970s, apparently without leading to the triumph of Satan just yet. To me (and I think, millions of other Canadians), it's just another part of teaching health. I haven't read the curriculum, but my cousin (a public school teacher in Kitchener) tells me that it's fairly innocuous, and that in their school board most of the resistance appeared to be coming from certain immigrant groups known for extreme social conservatism. (A point of view to which they are quite entitled) From what I saw in the media coverage of protests in the GTA, that seemed to hold true as well. Doug seems to want to get the votes of immigrant communities (a fine objective, within reason) so he might have to be careful not to veer too far to that side.



We've all had 'health class'. It's not sex education that people are complaining about, it's the curriculum most seem upset with.  

Of course there's always this. Ben Levine. Don't know what his input was, but the fact that he had input at all, to me is very disturbing. I don't think the liebrals will ever be able to get out from under his cloud, nor will their sex ed program.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2018)

WYNNE PROROGUES THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/wynne-proroguing-1.3752965

<snip>Premier Kathleen Wynne has prorogued the Ontario legislature so her government can deliver a throne speech Monday,
pressing the reset button to outline a new list of priorities less than two years before the next election<snip>


----------



## Remius (15 Mar 2018)

Here is a more recent link. RG your link seem to be from the last time she did that.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/legislature-prorogation-throne-speech-wynne-1.4577894


----------



## PPCLI Guy (15 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> WYNNE PROROGUES THE ONTARIO LEGISLATURE
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/toronto/wynne-proroguing-1.3752965
> 
> <snip>Premier Kathleen Wynne has prorogued the Ontario legislature so her government can deliver a throne speech Monday,
> pressing the reset button to outline a new list of priorities less than two years before the next election<snip>



Ummmm....the election is not in 2 years - it is on 7 June


----------



## mariomike (15 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ummmm....the election is not in 2 years - it is on 7 June



And if that doesn't go his way, he can campaign for the October 22, 2018 civic election. 

Voters are in for an extra-large serving of Doug this year.


----------



## Loachman (16 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Here is a more recent link. RG your link seem to be from the last time she did that.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/legislature-prorogation-throne-speech-wynne-1.4577894



"We are at a critical moment in Ontario, when we know _*people are dealing with a lot of uncertainty in their lives*_,"

Like a lot of Liberal MPPs wondering what other employment they can find post-June.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> Here is a more recent link. RG your link seem to be from the last time she did that.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/legislature-prorogation-throne-speech-wynne-1.4577894


 Tanks! Remus You're right, sausage fingers on a phone with links crammed together.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ummmm....the election is not in 2 years - it is on 7 June



Yes of course. As I acknowledged to Remius when he corrected me so politely, well before you did.


----------



## pbi (16 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> We've all had 'health class'. It's not sex education that people are complaining about, it's the curriculum most seem upset with.
> 
> Of course there's always this. Ben Levine. Don't know what his input was, but the fact that he had input at all, to me is very disturbing. I don't think the liebrals will ever be able to get out from under his cloud, nor will their sex ed program.



Well... who is "most"? Are most Ontarians upset with it, or only certain groups? This is meant to be a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one.  Certain groups are always upset with various parts of any educational curriculum, because it teaches things they don't agree with. Since we have a public education system, what portion of the public gets to decide its content?

On the Dr Levine case, I agree fully that a criminal being associated with the formulation of public policy is disgraceful. Once they knew of his charges, he should have been instantly removed from any position of influence. No questions.   

But, that said, does the curriculum actually excuse or normalize paedophilia? I don't know, because I haven't read it myself. Maybe I should do that.

Did Dr Levine have any impact on content? Or are we at risk of some sort of binary argument like "_ If you support Wynne's Sex Ed you support paedophiles_" Not from you, RecceGuy, but my concern is that sort of inflammatory speech gets deployed too easily once populism gets the blood boiling.


----------



## Jed (16 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well... who is "most"? Are most Ontarians upset with it, or only certain groups? This is meant to be a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one.  Certain groups are always upset with various parts of any educational curriculum, because it teaches things they don't agree with. Since we have a public education system, what portion of the public gets to decide its content?
> 
> On the Dr Levine case, I agree fully that a criminal being associated with the formulation of public policy is disgraceful. Once they knew of his charges, he should have been instantly removed from any position of influence. No questions.
> 
> ...



,so why do you think populism gets it blood boiling,? Maybe people are waking up to ludicrous bumf being shoved down their throats by incompetent know it alls who keep telling them to sit down and shut up. First they do it politely, then mockingly, and finally with with physical force.


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well... who is "most"? Are most Ontarians upset with it, or only certain groups? This is meant to be a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one.  Certain groups are always upset with various parts of any educational curriculum, because it teaches things they don't agree with. Since we have a public education system, what portion of the public gets to decide its content?



Not sure what percentage of the vote they represent, but they do look upset,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22sex+education%22+protest&cr=countryCA&dcr=0&tbs=ctr:countryCA&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN6pvp7_DZAhXh6YMKHXlfCxMQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=603



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> On the Dr Levine case, I agree fully that a criminal being associated with the formulation of public policy is disgraceful. Once they knew of his charges, he should have been instantly removed from any position of influence. No questions.



Statement by Minister Sandals Regarding Dr. Ben Levin
https://news.ontario.ca/edu/en/2013/07/statement-by-minister-sandals-regarding-dr-ben-levin.html


----------



## pbi (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> ,so why do you think populism gets it blood boiling,? Maybe people are waking up to ludicrous bumf being shoved down their throats by incompetent know it alls who keep telling them to sit down and shut up. First they do it politely, then mockingly, and finally with with physical force.



So, have you read the curriculum? Has anybody here? I haven't (I just found it on the Net today) Is it ludicrous bumf? And are the people who put it together "incompetent know it alls?"

Who is being told to sit down and shut up, by who? And what "physical force" is being threatened, against who?

This is what I meant: we start cranking things up without knowing what the facts are. That is  the basic failing of the type of populism based on exploiting ignorance, fear and anger.


----------



## Rifleman62 (16 Mar 2018)

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/ontarios-lost-decade-2007-2016

*Ontario’s Lost Decade: 2007–2016* — March 15, 2018

Summary

Between 2007 and 2016, Ontario was mired in a prolonged period of economic weakness during which it lost ground compared to the rest of the country on many important economic indicators.

This bulletin examines the extent of Ontario’s economic weakness during this decade by examining a range of economic metrics.
Ontario underperformed the rest of the country in each of the metrics examined in this study, specifically, real economic growth per person, private sector job growth, progress in real median household incomes, or debt accumulated per capita.

In fact, out of the 10 provinces, Ontario finishes near the bottom of the provincial pack (between 7th and 10th place) for each of the indicators examined.

Such a prolonged and severe period of economic weakness will have long-lasting implications for Ontario’s prosperity. As such, we characterize the period as a “lost decade” of economic growth for Ontario.

Ontario’s economy picked up in 2017, but it will take more than one year of solid growth for Ontario to make up for the lost ground of the preceding decade and reclaim its historical place as a leading economy within Canada.


----------



## pbi (16 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Not sure what percentage of the vote they represent, but they do look upset,




The last thing I read (National Post, I think) was that about 12 percent of the Ontario population have considered pulling their kids out of school over it, and about 3% have actually done it. About 48% "disapprove" of the curriculum, but I don't know how strongly, or on what grounds. I also don't know how many have actually read it.

I found the document: about 80% of the content appears to be about health and fitness, with the sex education part being fairly small. I'm starting at the elementary school level to see what the content is, since that seems to be one of the concerns: that it teaches too much too early.


----------



## Strike (16 Mar 2018)

Here's a summary from the government web site...

https://www.ontario.ca/page/sex-education-ontario


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

How Ontario's sex education program compares to other provinces.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/02/26/how-ontarios-new-sex-education-program-compares-to-other-provinces.html

( If one prefers multiple sources to choose from ),
https://www.google.ca/search?dcr=0&biw=1280&bih=603&ei=NdOrWuqqC4HPjwSJwYu4Aw&q=%22other+provinces%22++%22sex+education%22&oq=%22other+provinces%22++%22sex+education%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i8i30k1.15922.17213.0.18561.7.7.0.0.0.0.266.677.2j2j1.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.1.110....0.wAuZHp0w61E


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> The last thing I read (National Post, I think) was that about 12 percent of the Ontario population have considered pulling their kids out of school over it, and about 3% have actually done it.



PBI, we know that Toronto is a city of neighbourhoods. Mileage may vary, depending on the neighbourhood.

eg: Half the school population in Thorncliffe Park - possibly "the largest elementary school in North America" * - actually was pulled out in protest.

* 
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:J57zuogZZu8J:www.thorncliffe.org/about-thorncliffe/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca


----------



## Journeyman (16 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> That is the basic failing of the type of populism based on *exploiting ignorance, fear, and anger*.


Facts?  We don't need no stinkin' facts.   ~_sneer_ ~

  :sarcasm:


Edit: while it shouldn't be necessary, I figured I would add the "Sarcasm" just to be safe.


----------



## Remius (16 Mar 2018)

So, I'm still ready to give him a bit more time to square away the platform but...

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-doug-ford-is-off-to-a-bad-start-as-pc-leader/

I heard the interview and I agree with that editorial.  It was not a good start.  I was hoping for more substance.

Doug Ford is going to have to be a bit more specific.

on the sex ed thing I really hope they don't make this an issue.  he may not have a choice given who his king maker was but still.


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-doug-ford-is-off-to-a-bad-start-as-pc-leader/



QUOTE

Mr. Ford vowed to find unnamed “efficiencies,” said it would be “simple” to do, and repeated his empty slogan, “Just watch me.” 

END QUOTE

Deja vu all over again,

QUOTE

"Mayor Rob Ford will deliver $50-million in "efficiencies" in the way the city is run, he announced without giving any hint as to what the efficiencies will be."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-promises-50-million-in-savings-in-budget-1.2513042

END QUOTE

For those who have not had a chance to read it yet,

Ford Nation: Two Brothers, One Vision 
by Rob Ford (Author),‎    Doug Ford (Author)


----------



## Jed (16 Mar 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> So, have you read the curriculum? Has anybody here? I haven't (I just found it on the Net today) Is it ludicrous bumf? And are the people who put it together "incompetent know it alls?"
> 
> Who is being told to sit down and shut up, by who? And what "physical force" is being threatened, against who?
> 
> This is what I meant: we start cranking things up without knowing what the facts are. That is  the basic failing of the type of populism based on exploiting ignorance, fear and anger.



No I am not from ON so it does not affect me personally. I am not cranking it up by merely making an observation about people's reactions and stating my opinion. You would have to remain tone deaf to not see the rising sentiment about the On provincial government. There is no way anyone could find solid facts on this matter. Its more akin to finding intel from arm's length sources.  In my opinion, the silent majority is starting to push back against the Politically Correct crowd and those esteemed leaders who have parked their brains in neutral (Elites) It is obvious to me that the Left is getting more and more militant and activist on what used to be minor issues.

IMO, People are mad as hell and they are not going to take it anymore. Facts are meaningless at this point.


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> Facts are meaningless at this point.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF6SNxNIV08


----------



## Remius (16 Mar 2018)

This is the sort of thing that Ford need some to do more of.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/doug-ford-northern-ontario-1.4579311

A good plan.


----------



## Altair (16 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> QUOTE
> 
> Mr. Ford vowed to find unnamed “efficiencies,” said it would be “simple” to do, and repeated his empty slogan, “Just watch me.”
> 
> ...


Elliot vs Wynne. No contest.

Wynne versus Ford, Ontario weeps.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> So, I'm still ready to give him a bit more time to square away the platform but...
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-doug-ford-is-off-to-a-bad-start-as-pc-leader/
> 
> ...



Watched an interview with him where he said that abortion issues and sex ed curriculum are the two bottom rungs of the ladder. Finances at the top.


----------



## Journeyman (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> Facts are meaningless at this point.


Yep, this _must_  be one of the Politics threads.  :brickwall:


----------



## Jed (16 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF6SNxNIV08


Funny youtube video about Homer, but it illustrates the point I was attempting to make. The Simpsons Cartoons have been running as least as long as the Looney Tunes on TV, the medium of the masses.  They are a bit of a humorous window into the soul of the masses. Like I have said, it is only my opinion, but I predict a shift in the general attitude of the populous. Maybe something like when Jack Layton suddenly became a hero and everybody voted NDP. At times like these, Facts don't matter.


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> At times like these, Facts don't matter.



It was meant as a joke.


----------



## Remius (16 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Watched an interview with him where he said that abortion issues and sex ed curriculum are the two bottom rungs of the ladder. Finances at the top.



Well his plan is only supposed to have 5 key points so it's a small ladder.  Finances are good but he needs to get into the details or at least provide better info than he has when asked very basic questions. 

Like his Ring of fire plan.  I want to see more of that type of thinking.

Side note (and it will agree a bit with RG's assessment of the media) :  I noticed the CBC and other outlets use terms like "PC Leader Doug Ford plans to scrap sex ed curriculum" but used " Progressive conservatives outline plan for Northern Ontario".  both articles are from the same outlet but there is a subtle difference on how it is presented.  One links ford himself to the plan and the other title excludes him.   Minor but didn't go unnoticed.


----------



## Journeyman (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> The Simpsons Cartoons have been running as least as long as the Looney Tunes on TV, the medium of the masses.  They are a bit of a humorous window into the soul of the masses.
> ... At times like these, Facts don't matter.



To paraphrase a post I'd made previously here, _some_  people's 'thinking' is informed solely by clichés [ie - bumper stickers] and spamming this site from one or two zealot blogs.... obviously I should have included the Simpsons.   :

For _some_  of us, facts matter.   But that is "only my opinion."


----------



## Remius (16 Mar 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> To paraphrase a post I'd made previously here, _some_  people's 'thinking' is informed solely by clichés [ie - bumper stickers] and spamming this site from one or two zealot blogs.... obviously I should have included the Simpsons.   :
> 
> For _some_  of us, facts matter.   But that is "only my opinion."



Some of us actually share that opinion.


----------



## Pencil Tech (16 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> QUOTE
> 
> Mr. Ford vowed to find unnamed “efficiencies,” said it would be “simple” to do, and repeated his empty slogan, “Just watch me.”
> 
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> To paraphrase a post I'd made previously here, _some_  people's 'thinking' is informed solely by clichés [ie - bumper stickers] and spamming this site from one or two zealot blogs.... obviously I should have included the Simpsons.   :
> 
> For _some_  of us, facts matter.   But that is "only my opinion."


Everyone's opinion is allowed.
Facts? Sure, if they are needed to prove a point, but I don't think there's a requirement to validate every single word someone uses.

I prefer posting as if I was having a conversation, not sitting in a reference library full of explanations, foot notes, links and attributions. Yes, those things have a place, I'm not discussing that.

I use 'just my opinion' so there is no confusing the gist of my post. For the same reason we've had  :2c: here from the very start. If I think I need links and things for a technical or similar discussion, I'll go find them. If I write. "This idiot is batshit crazy and I don't like his platform." That is my personal opinion and it doesn't need to be qualified. There is nothing there to prove to anyone. Sometimes, you just don't like someone and how they operate. There's more than one looking at me now ( ) I don't think it warrants all kinds of attacks, back handed or otherwise, especially knocking people's ignorance on a subject, identifying them personally or generally, through innuendo of being right or left wing freaks, bumper sticker** or otherwise, because someone doesn't agree. Yes, I'm guilty, but there's others here also, and not just a few. I'm trying to move towards personal change, for the better. I stumble lots, that's no secret. It's just too bad some others may feel too superior to try the same thing. :waiting:

Hey, but that just MY opinion. :rofl:

** - The phrase I could care less. When I mentioned it, I wanted to know what defined it. I got one good answer, from PBI and that worked. I now have context to it's use. He used it, he defined it. I'm happy. The other explanation(s) were bumpf.


----------



## mariomike (16 Mar 2018)

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> "Just watch me". Wasn't that a Pierre Trudeau one-liner?



Somehow, your reply got into my post.   

But, I do remember when he said it,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfUq9b1XTa0


----------



## Jed (16 Mar 2018)

With respect to Facts Matter.  Yes, I agree. Facts Matter greatly. Consequences and Actions matter a lot more.  At some point every individual will have reached a saturation point on the Facts, especially when there are a myriad of difficult to substantiate versions of the Facts.  Some individuals will spiral down the drain in confusion and indecision. Most people will make some sort of decision and get on with it. (Like pick the candidate they want to vote for)

The smarter individuals pick a position, based on the available facts, back it and don't waste time waffling back and forth. At least until a substantiated Critical Fact smacks them in the face.

The ignorant individuals ignore Critical Facts until reality forces itself upon them.  In my personsal opinion, that would be the Leftist Snowflakes who are and hopefully always will be, a minority of the voting population.


----------



## Altair (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> With respect to Facts Matter.  Yes, I agree. Facts Matter greatly. Consequences and Actions matter a lot more.  At some point every individual will have reached a saturation point on the Facts, especially when there are a myriad of difficult to substantiate versions of the Facts.  Some individuals will spiral down the drain in confusion and indecision. Most people will make some sort of decision and get on with it. (Like pick the candidate they want to vote for)
> 
> The smarter individuals pick a position, based on the available facts, back it and don't waste time waffling back and forth. At least until a substantiated Critical Fact smacks them in the face.
> 
> The ignorant individuals ignore Critical Facts until reality forces itself upon them.  In my personsal opinion, that would be the Leftist Snowflakes who are and hopefully always will be, a minority of the voting population.


There are more than enough ignorant people on all sides of the spectrum.


----------



## pbi (16 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> No I am not from ON so it does not affect me personally. I am not cranking it up by merely making an observation about people's reactions and stating my opinion. You would have to remain tone deaf to not see the rising sentiment about the On provincial government. There is no way anyone could find solid facts on this matter. Its more akin to finding intel from arm's length sources.  In my opinion, the silent majority is starting to push back against the Politically Correct crowd and those esteemed leaders who have parked their brains in neutral (Elites) It is obvious to me that the Left is getting more and more militant and activist on what used to be minor issues.
> 
> IMO, People are mad as hell and they are not going to take it anymore. Facts are meaningless at this point.



Well, maybe not. I'd like to think that anybody trying to form a government in the Province I live in would base their plans and policies in facts, since I will have to live under that Government. As far as finding solid facts in this matter, here is the link to the Ontario curriculum that people are so worked up about (or at least the part that covers Grades 1 to 8

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/curriculum/elementary/health1to8.pdf

I've looked through it and I honestly can't find what would make people angry enough to pull their kids out of school.  Here are a few quotes that seem pretty reasonable to me:



> 216
> THE ONTARIO CURRICULUM, GRADES 1–8  |  Health and Physical Education GRADE 8
> 
> Teacher prompt: “How would thinking about your personal limits and making a personal plan influence decisions you may choose to make about sexual activity?”
> ...



So, it encourages young people to "set personal limits" and to avoid "reacting without thought". Seems fine to me.




> Teacher prompt: “By getting questions answered and understanding that questions and
> changes are ‘normal’, adolescents will be better equipped to understand themselves, relate
> to others, respond to challenges and changes in relationships, and build confidence.
> What are some questions that young people might have as changes happen during
> ...



Yawn. 



> C1.5 describe the physical changes that occur in males and females at puberty (e.g., growth of body
> hair, breast development, changes in voice and body size, production of body odour, skin changes) and
> the emotional and social impacts that may result from these changes [PS]
> 
> ...



OK, that sounds like what I got in Grade 8.

And, as far as I can see, lots more of the same sort of stuff. I would be happy to have the perverted, dangerous, corrupting parts pointed out to me.

Ohh, wait...that sounded wrong :tsktsk:


----------



## Jed (16 Mar 2018)

With respect to the Health and Physical Education Curriculum.   In the end it boils down to the delivery by the teachers / instructors. I looked through it but I hurt my head as is bounced of the desk when I fell asleep.

When I was going through school, when someone I knew and at another time, I, personally, was pawed up by an 'in the closet, Gay teacher' who was well thought of by most people, not a damn thing was done about the incidents even though they were discreetly brought to the attention of the powers that be. 

People have long memories and resentments. Teachers bare a massive amount of responsibility. God bless the good ones.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Mar 2018)

Jed said:
			
		

> The ignorant individuals ignore Critical Facts until reality forces itself upon them.  In my personsal opinion, that would be the Leftist Snowflakes who are and hopefully always will be, a minority of the voting population.



One final stab at this, then I'll bow out.

My point wasn't aimed specifically at the left or right, where it seems the further out you go, the more vocal, repetitive, and ill-informed the views become -- neither end of the spectrum has cornered the market.  No, I'm actually denouncing IGNORANCE.

Some people dismiss facts saying they already have an opinion, or live in an echo chamber of confirmation bias where they read only what they already agree with (eg: a blogger who claims to provide insight because he's insightful?  Seriously?).  With that sort of senselessness taking hold and spreading, society is f*cked; look how increasingly divided several communities have already become.  If facts are dismissed out of hand, how can one even attempt a discussion -- Use only upper-case font?  Try to out-stupid them?  Assume that name-calling qualifies as an informed opinion?

Sadly, because such posts do little to actually inform, *they serve only as a place to vent while diminishing the overall tone and content of the site*.

For a growing number here, I suspect that they simply avoid the Politics threads, leaving the soapbox orators -- *at both political ends* --to run amok.  I can't say I blame them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Mar 2018)

I wonder what the reaction would be if she used another colour?

https://soundcloud.com/brianlilley/kathleen-wynne-tells-students-to-vote-or-old-white-people-will


----------



## kratz (17 Mar 2018)

Journeyman,

Your points are well said
Sadly, I don't post my views as the site is too politically polarized. It's simply easier to read than to post. Sadly, I know it limits discussion and informed thought.  One of the many reasons for this site.

Thank you for calling out the need for discussion.


----------



## mariomike (18 Mar 2018)

> Assume that name-calling qualifies as an informed opinion?



I came of age long before the internet. We looked things up in the Encyclopedia Britannica. 

Social media bloggers have taken up the slack from newspapers and TV news.

I admit to not being “with it” when it comes to modern political smack-talk. 

Political acronyms and insults I am unfamiliar with make me feel ... OLD.  

I need to look them up in the Urban Dictionary to understand what they actually mean.   

It used to be people could agree to disagree. Keep political arguments non-personal and remain friends. 

Maybe one of these days people will shift gears, and start liking those who don't necessarily vote for the same party. 

Just because some anonymous person on social media calls them "sheeple" ( or worse ) if they don't?


----------



## mariomike (23 Mar 2018)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Don't forget though that Ford country was able to obtain enough votes to win Toronto in spite of its left-leaning tendancies and his brother was every bit as big a buffoon as Doug is.



That was true in 2010 with Ford Nation. And again in 2014 with John Tory, who had served as the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario. 

Although Ford Nation lost that election.

Ford campaigned on "Stop the gravy train" and "Respect for taxpayers".

Ford pledged to do away with the city's century-old fair-wage policy, which required that private contractors be paid the same as union employees.

Ford also took on the city unions, which were seen by many in Ford Nation as too powerful, with generous benefits and pension plans.

Justin Trudeau came to Toronto to support Ford's opponent, George Smitherman.

Rob Ford had no such allies. He had only his brother Doug and Ford Nation.

The campaign got pretty nasty.

George Smitherman, who was openly gay and married to a man, was the target of homophobic ads.

There were also signs posted about a "Wife-beating, racist drunk".

If you look at the election map, it can be seen that Ford Nation did very well with suburban voters against the "downtown liberal elites". 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_mayoral_election,_2010#/media/File:Toronto_Election_2010_Map.svg

How  Ford Nation will do in the 2018 provincial election is the subject of an article in yesterday's Sun by Joe Oliver. Former MP for Forest Hill,

QUOTE

In support of populism and Doug Ford
http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/oliver-in-support-of-populism-and-doug-ford

END QUOTE


----------



## CountDC (23 Mar 2018)

Well, looks like my kids are in for some boring classes in their futures and may come off as the smartest kids in their class when it comes to the sex ed.  We have always taught them the correct name for their body parts to the extent of correcting them when they use one of the popular slang terms. We do not have winged and beaked body parts. 

Don't see an issue with sex ed and really don't understand the desire to live in the dark ages about it.  Hopefully by educating our kids they will be the ones that are not sexting at 13 and pregnant at 14. 

but to be safe we have told them no sex until they are 30...... :rofl:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2018)

I see Wynne travelling around talking of spending millions and billions on more social programs that don't give anything to those paying for them.

I see exactly the same thing from Horvath. 

They have already run out of other people's money. The taxpayers are skint, and the only way for the liebrals and dippers to fund their plans are to keep stealing from taxpayers and taking out loans. Of course, they likely won't keep their promises anyway, especially Wynne, she's liebral and deceit and betrayal are just second nature to them.

Ford is talking reducing. The taxes, hydro rates, eliminating cap & trade for starters. Those are things I can get behind.

I love the way they keep dragging Rob Ford's corpse out, to try scare people. 

High on crack and whatever, drunk, boisterous and still did a better job, and lowered costs on those days, than the liebrals have ever done straight and sober.  :rofl:


----------



## Lumber (23 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I see Wynne travelling around talking of spending millions and billions on more social programs that don't give anything to those paying for them.
> 
> I see exactly the same thing from Horvath.
> 
> ...



RG, your posts are always well written and you provide an excellent perspective, but do you not realize your posts lose a not-insignificant amount of credibility with your repeated use of the term "liebrals"? If the liberals are as bad as you say there are, then you're arguments should be enough. "Liebrals" comes across as immature and churlish, and I think you're better then that.


----------



## mariomike (23 Mar 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I love the way they keep dragging Rob Ford's corpse out, to try scare people.



Doug wanted an open casket - draped with a “Ford Nation” flag - in the City Hall rotunda.

Doug was posing for selfies next to Rob's casket.
http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/03/28/doug-ford-poses-for-selfies-during-rob-ford-memorial.html
"I feel like Doug Ford is running for office on his brother's corpse," wrote one observer. 

Doug did the eulogy, "And don't worry, Ford Nation will continue — continue respecting the taxpayers."

Doug's four years in politics are closely connected to Rob. 

Doug replaced Rob as the Ward 2 councillor when Rob vacated to became mayor.

Rob Ford and Giorgio Mammoliti were the only members of Council who endorsed Doug as a candidate for mayor.

Rob and Doug hosted a weekly two-hour radio program on CFRB Newstalk 1010 called The City with Mayor Rob Ford & Councillor Doug Ford. 

Rob and Doug Ford hosted Ford Nation on the Sun News Network. 

Rob and Doug Ford hosted the annual Ford Fests.

Rob and Doug were interviewed many times together. When Rob was unavailable, Doug would speak for him.

Rob and Doug wrote a book together, "Ford Nation: Two Brothers, One Vision".

QUOTE

Mr. Ford vowed to find unnamed “efficiencies,” said it would be “simple” to do, and repeated his empty slogan, “Just watch me.” 

END QUOTE

QUOTE

"Mayor Rob Ford will deliver $50-million in "efficiencies" in the way the city is run, he announced without giving any hint as to what the efficiencies will be."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-promises-50-million-in-savings-in-budget-1.2513042

END QUOTE


----------



## Loachman (23 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Mr. Ford vowed to find unnamed “efficiencies,” said it would be “simple” to do, and repeated his empty slogan, “Just watch me.”



Simply replacing the current regime would be an efficiency.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2018)

Wynne's racist remarks trying to shill for votes is pathetic.  First the conservatives will knock her out of office then hopefully Trudeau next.


----------



## mariomike (23 Mar 2018)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Simply replacing the current regime would be an efficiency.



When Doug was Rob's campaign manager he was quoted as saying, "Up here we call this Ford Country. Rob could commit murder on the steps of City Hall and they will still vote for him."

No reason to believe anything has changed with Ford Nation.  

As a retired city employee, Rob and Doug's talk of "efficiencies" caught my attention. I understood the public safety risk of closing stations to get votes.

Fortunately, being retired in 2009, my pension and retirement benefits were "grand-fathered" by the time Rob and Doug came into power in 2010.

But, I had friends still on the job who were alarmed by all their "stop the gravy train" rhetoric.

"Like the firefighters’ union, Police Chief Bill Blair has gone on the offensive, telling reporters that a 10 per cent cut translates into the loss of 1,000 Toronto police officers. Fire Chief Bill Stewart has said a $37 million cut to fire would see 400 firefighters sacrificed at a time when the service is already below its normal complement."


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> When Doug was Rob's campaign manager he was quoted as saying, "Up here we call this Ford Country. Rob could commit murder on the steps of City Hall and they will still vote for him."
> 
> No reason to believe anything has changed with Ford Nation.



So what if it doesn't? It's worked for them before.


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Wynne's racist remarks trying to shill for votes is pathetic.  First the conservatives will knock her out of office then hopefully Trudeau next.



I called the Ontario Human Rights Commission about charging her with racism and hate speech. I tried their legal entity, to see if there was a case.

Here's their answer. Honest to god.

Racism and hate speech can only be complained about by historically oppressed groups. Whites, were not historically oppressed according to them. So it's not hate speech or racism if it is intoned against whites. I shit you not. They would not comment on Irish slaves or indentured servants being white and oppressed.

I was also told that they would take any complaint against Wynne and send it to the Premier's Office for explanation and that entity would reply to my queries.

There is one inefficiency Doug Ford could save billions on, by shutting down the HRC.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (23 Mar 2018)

Firefighters have the most to fear out of EMS services. Very cushy job, coupled with very high wages, and a ridiculous amount of job security despite being a very desired job which doesn't require much actual education.

Personally I make less than a firefighter, but based off the firefighters I personally know, I do much more work than they do on a daily basis.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> RG, your posts are always well written and you provide an excellent perspective, but do you not realize your posts lose a not-insignificant amount of credibility with your repeated use of the term "liebrals"? If the liberals are as bad as you say there are, then you're arguments should be enough. "Liebrals" comes across as immature and churlish, and I think you're better then that.



Thanks for the compliments and feedback.

It's my little personal protest. They ARE liars, no sense in denying it. And heavy duty liars to boot. There is just too many instances where they've been caught to consider it an anomaly. This is a party that has taken misdirection and falsehood to new, professional heights. It's a fitting name for them. That's why I use the word 'liebral' instead of 'liberal'. If I don't call them liebrals, I call them grits instead. The liebral party likes to invent words to give backing to their agendas. I like to invent words that are apt and honest descriptors of their party. I can't be responsible if people get hung up on that word and lose site of the rest of the conversation.

I do really appreciate the feedback though Lumber, Cheers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2018)

[quote author=recceguy]
Here's their answer. Honest to god.

Racism and hate speech can only be complained about by historically oppressed groups. 
[/quote]
I'm not surprised.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Firefighters have the most to fear out of EMS services. Very cushy job, coupled with very high wages, and a ridiculous amount of job security despite being a very desired job which doesn't require much actual education.
> 
> Personally I make less than a firefighter, but based off the firefighters I personally know, I do much more work than they do on a daily basis.



I don't know what you do for a job, but I do know what firemen do. Covered with ice in winter from the water, cooking in the summer inside their bunker gear. Running into burning building when everyone is running out.

The are also plagued with many, horrific, deadly diseases from the fires and chemicals. All kinds of cancers, organs turning to sludge and a host of other things that will not allow many of them to reach retirement.

I begrudge them not one single thing that they get for their service.

You also realize that when they are not fighting fires, they are not just laying on their bunks, right?

Soldiers are really not much different 99% boredom broken up by 1% sheer terror. Should they get less than you?


----------



## mariomike (23 Mar 2018)

Regarding Reply #270 and #273, 

I'm only familiar with emergency operations in the city where Rob and Doug were elected.

City police officers, firefighters and paramedics are on the same team. Each has their own job to do.



			
				Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Firefighters have the most to fear out of EMS services.



Integration of the fire and paramedic departments was studied by the City of Toronto in 2013 while Rob was mayor, and Doug was the councillor of Ward 2,

The city decided against it,

QUOTE

“There is little advantage for the expense of training firefighters to a higher level.”
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2013/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-59903.pdf

END QUOTE

As far as politics are concerned, the city's police, fire and paramedic unions - elected by their members - support the politicians who support us.

No union can tell their members how to vote, but in previous Ontario elections, the Ontario Professional Firefighters Association ( OPPFA ) has supported the provincial Liberal party.

QUOTE

"Kathleen Wynne makes a campaign stop at the Burlington's Appleby GO Station, where she was greeted firefighters who turned out to support the Grits." ( aka Liberals )
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2014/05/06/campaign_notes_tales_from_the_trail.html

Firefighters take a Liberal approach

How can you tell you’re at a Liberal campaign event? Look for beefy firefighters in yellow T-shirts.

As they did for former premier Dalton McGuinty, Ontario Professional Fire Fighters Association members are turning out in droves to help the Grits.

Sporting their brightly coloured shirts, the firefighters have brandished Liberal signs and cheered Kathleen Wynne at events in Milton on Monday and Burlington on Tuesday.

END QUOTE



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Soldiers are really not much different 99% boredom broken up by 1% sheer terror. Should they get less than you?



You asked Eaglelord17 that question. The Sunshine List was released yesterday. Fair or unfair, the List made it obvious that CAF firefighters are in fact paid  less than municipal firefighters.

Regarding Ontario Politics 2018, Doug railed against the Sunshine List when it was released yesterday. Said regular hardworking folks haven't seen an income hike in years.

On the other hand, he called increasing the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2019 a tax grab. 
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/03/14/minimum-wage-bump-means-1500-more-a-year-for-low-income-workers-economist-says.html


----------



## Eaglelord17 (24 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding Reply #270 and #273,
> I'm only familiar with emergency operations in the city where Rob and Doug were elected.
> City police officers, firefighters and paramedics are on the same team. Each has their own job to do.
> Integration of the fire and paramedic departments was studied by the City of Toronto in 2013 while Rob was mayor, and Doug was the councillor of Ward 2,
> ...



My point is Firefighters are extremely well paid for what they do. There are people with a lot less job security, doing a lot more dangerous jobs, getting paid less, and ultimately paying for firefighters at the end of the day. Personally I believe pretty much all public service jobs deserve a good cut in income as the rest of the country hasn't kept up and they are the ones at the end of the day paying for them. 



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I don't know what you do for a job, but I do know what firemen do. Covered with ice in winter from the water, cooking in the summer inside their bunker gear. Running into burning building when everyone is running out.
> The are also plagued with many, horrific, deadly diseases from the fires and chemicals. All kinds of cancers, organs turning to sludge and a host of other things that will not allow many of them to reach retirement.
> You also realize that when they are not fighting fires, they are not just laying on their bunks, right?
> Soldiers are really not much different 99% boredom broken up by 1% sheer terror. Should they get less than you?



Soldiers do make less than me, and I work a lot harder now than I ever did in the Regs, but that is besides the point as I also volunteer my time off to be a part time soldier. I also have to deal with all sorts of nasty chemicals, substances, and potentially life ending situations on a daily basis as I am a millwright. I have also done the whole firefighting thing with the Navy and understand the pros and cons of it having actually been part of a DC emergency on board. Most the firefighters I personally know don't work that hard, get paid to sleep, and are able to maintain a second career. Don't believe that EMS and soldiers are the only ones that have dangerous jobs, many civilian jobs are also dangerous just unrecognized as such. 

But this all really shouldn't be part of the Ontario Politics thread, except maybe showing some of the Blue Collar resentment towards nice secure public sector jobs.


----------



## mariomike (24 Mar 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> But this all really shouldn't be part of the Ontario Politics thread, except maybe showing some of the Blue Collar resentment towards nice secure public sector jobs.



There is a discussion in the Emergency Services forum,

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/102608.100
5 pages.

Original Post: "I also recall there also being a bit of an uproar about Paramedics and Firefighters also being "overpaid"."


----------



## Loachman (27 Mar 2018)

Received via e-mail from https://taxpayer.com/, so cannot provide a specific link:

For the first time ever, a provincial auditor general may issue an adverse audit opinion on a province’s financial records. Ontario’s Auditor General, Bonnie Lysyk, is so concerned about incorrect and deceptive accounting that she won’t be able to sign off on them.

An adverse opinion is a professional opinion made by an auditor that financial statements are misrepresented, misstated, and do not accurately reflect financial performance and health.

The auditor general has the sole authority to audit the province’s financial books, and for years Lysyk has expressed her concern. Last year she was so concerned about inaccuracies, that she issued a first ever, “qualified” audit opinion.

Since then, things have got worse, not better.

It’s rare to have someone in government who is speaking truth to power, and what Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk is doing isn’t easy. The government has attacked her repeatedly, but she is still standing up to them.

We want to show her that taxpayers across the province appreciate what she is doing – that we deserve honesty from our government. Please take a moment to email Auditor General Bonnie Lysyk and say THANK YOU for standing up for the truth.

You can reach her at bonnie.lysyk@auditor.on.ca  

The provincial budget will be tabled this week - on Wednesday, March 28. We are anticipating an $8 billion deficit. But based on what the auditor general is saying, it’s possible that things could in fact be even worse.

Stay tuned for our budget coverage on Wednesday.


----------



## Loachman (27 Mar 2018)

Doug Ford Campaign Ad #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt4ZE4kw3iw


----------



## Remius (28 Mar 2018)

The Wynne government must really be getting desperate.  Free daycare now if they are re elected.  Nice to be bribed with our own money...


----------



## Loachman (28 Mar 2018)

Nice to bribe _somebody else_ with _my_ money - I've already paid for my share of day care.

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/03/27/ontario-budget-to-fund-free-child-care-for-preschoolers-by-2020-as-part-of-22-billion-plan.html

Ontario budget to fund free child care for preschoolers as part of _*$2.2B*_ plan

In a bid to deal with Ontario’s high child care costs, the Wynne government will offer free licensed care for preschoolers at an average _*saving of $17,000 per child*_. (Except that that child will be paying for it later in life, of course)

“The job of a parent has become harder in the current economy,” (And it just got _harder_ due to the increased tax bill) Wynne told parents at Nelson Mandela Park Public School in Regent Park about the plan, which will begin in 2020. “So families need this kind of support and insurance more than ever and we need to deliver it.”

Even Red Star readers aren't buying it. A poll embedded in the article shows:

Yes - We have needed free licensed child care.                                                      36.91%  (8,875 votes)
No - This is a last ditch effort by Kathleen Wynne.                                               57.38%  (13,799 votes)
Unsure - Daycare funding is important, but not an important issue for me.       5.71%  (1,373 votes)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2018)

If you can't afford to have children, don't have them.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2018)

> Even Red Star readers aren't buying it. A poll embedded in the article shows:
> 
> Yes - We have needed free licensed child care.                                                      36.91%  (8,875 votes)
> No - This is a last ditch effort by Kathleen Wynne.                                               57.38%  (13,799 votes)
> Unsure - Daycare funding is important, but not an important issue for me.       5.71%  (1,373 votes)



Pathetic.


----------



## Loachman (29 Mar 2018)

https://globalnews.ca/news/4112578/doug-ford-nominated-etobicoke-north/

Politics March 28, 2018 11:43 pm

Ontario PC Party Leader Doug Ford acclaimed as candidate for Etobicoke North

By Nick Westoll	Digital Broadcast Journalist  Global News

Doug Ford, who was recently elected as leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario, will be running in Toronto’s northwest end in the upcoming provincial election.

During a nomination meeting held at the Toronto Congress Centre on Wednesday evening, Ford was acclaimed as the Ontario PC Party candidate for the riding of Etobicoke North.

“Now we have an opportunity to represent the great people of Etobicoke North as a provincial MPP,” he said, while thanking residents for the support.

“I always say that this isn’t about an election this is a movement.”


----------



## kratz (30 Mar 2018)

I'm so glad we were posted out of the mess Ontario is digging itself into.

Who is paying for all these election promises? 
Ontario is digging itself into a hole it will never recover from if it keeps up
this style of politics. Sadly, unless you are from the GTA, nobody wants to hear a solution.


----------



## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> Sadly, unless you are from the GTA, nobody wants to hear a solution.



Nunavut separated from the Northwest Territories.

Perhaps time for the GTA to separate from Ontario?


----------



## YZT580 (31 Mar 2018)

Sadly, it would appear that her spending is buying her votes while she waits for Doug to shoot himself in the foot.  There is no bigger fool than the man who allows himself to be bought with his own money.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (31 Mar 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Perhaps time for the GTA to separate from Ontario?



More like time for Ontario to separate from Toronto...


----------



## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> More like time for Ontario to separate from Toronto...



#GTAExit!


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Mar 2018)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> More like time for Ontario to separate from Toronto...



This. :nod:


----------



## mariomike (31 Mar 2018)

Province of GTA? Where's the door!  

See also,

City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/124115.100
5 pages.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Mar 2018)

Mario, you trolling me brother? It's not April Fools yet.  ;D


----------



## mariomike (1 Apr 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Mario, you trolling me brother? It's not April Fools yet.  ;D



Not at all, RG.

I've felt that way since the 1970's when the Metro Chairman argued before the Royal Commission that the GTA should have the range and flexibility of a province in its decision making.


----------



## Journeyman (1 Apr 2018)

Toronto can go;  they take Wynne.     :nod:


----------



## observor 69 (1 Apr 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Toronto can go;  they take Wynne.     :nod:



Toronto goes and as a parting gift we'll give you  Doug.


----------



## mariomike (1 Apr 2018)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Toronto goes and as a parting gift we'll give you  Doug.



Our loss is their loss.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (1 Apr 2018)

In terms of Toronto being it's own province, I dont disagree. I think that if we were going to "re-shape" Canada, there'd be a lot of realignment that could be made, such as the GTA being it's own province, the Atlantic provinces being combined into 1 province, etc, etc, etc.


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> In terms of Toronto being it's own province, I dont disagree.



That would be nice. It would mean not having to go up the street to Queen's Park to ask permission, with hat in hand, to install a speed bump.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (1 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> That would be nice. It would mean not having to go up the street to Queen's Park to ask permission, with hat in hand, to install a speed bump.



At a CMA population of 6.6 million people, Toronto, if alone, would be the 3rd largest province in the country and have more people than PEI, NS, NB, NL, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan combined. Toronto's GDP of $304 billion is larger than that of PEI, NS, NL, NB, and BC. There is a rational argument to be made for Toronto as a province. When looking at the numbers the understanding that Toronto will decide the ontario election is pretty stark.


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## mariomike (1 Apr 2018)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> There is a rational argument to be made for Toronto as a province.



That would be nice. Unfortunately, it would require a Constitutional amendment:

"For any part of Toronto and the surrounding region to secede from Ontario to create a new province would require an amendment to the Constitution of Canada. The constitutional amendment would require resolutions from the House of Commons of Canada and the Senate of Canada, and resolutions from the legislative bodies of 7 of the provinces representing at least 50% of the population."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#Constitutional_amendment


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## Eaglelord17 (2 Apr 2018)

The other option is you have the North succeed, or have it join Manitoba whose population is about as spread out and of a similar mindset.


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> The other option is you have the North succeed, or have it join Manitoba whose population is about as spread out and of a similar mindset.



Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, had this to say about what effect the proposed secession of Toronto would have on Northern Ontario, ( presumably a similar effect were the North to secede ),

"I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#History

Mayor Tory of Toronto said this,

QUOTE

Tory argues Toronto is a global metropolis with needs that go way beyond and are more complex than cities and towns much smaller in Ontario. "I heard the minister refer this morning, in the same breath as talking about Toronto, to the bus service to Wawa and Sioux Lookout. Wawa has one bus and you call it to come to your house to pick you up. The notion that we would be compared, and I say this with no disrespect to these communities whatsoever, I've been in them all, but the notion you would compare the needs of a city of millions of people, that has millions of people going to work on transit and going to school everyday and the notion that we would be put in with them is part of the problem, here."
http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/news/road-tolls-a-no-go-1.2360098

END QUOTE


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## Journeyman (2 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#Constitutional_amendment





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#History


Out of curiosity, is it your intent to post each sub-section of that Wikipedia article separately, perhaps so it looks like there's some large body of evidence to supporting a Toronto independence movement?

Otherwise, it really isn't a lengthy article, if anyone had an interest in reading it in one fell swoop rather than waiting for their next Coronation Street installment.


....or maybe....just _maybe_..... create a separate 'utopian Toronto' thread, leaving this one for those who believe that there may be more to Ontario politics than Toronto separatism.


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ....or maybe....just _maybe_..... create a separate 'utopian Toronto' thread, leaving this one for those who believe that there may be more to Ontario politics than Toronto separatism.



If you wish, secession from Ontario can be split and merged into the existing 5-page "City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver" discussion.


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## Journeyman (2 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you wish, secession from Ontario can be split and merged into the existing 5-page "City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver" discussion.


Noooo.....Toronto _clearly_  needs it's own, centre-of-universe thread; it shouldn't be bogged down with those second rate city-states.    :nod:


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2018)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Noooo.....Toronto _clearly_  needs it's own, centre-of-universe thread; it shouldn't be bogged down with those second rate city-states.    :nod:



Already has one,  

Toronto: Love it or hate it? 
https://milnet.ca/forums/threads/119520.25.html
8 pages.

If you do not wish secession from Ontario split and merged into the existing 5-page "City-state provinces in Canada?" discussion, it can be split and merged into the existing 8-page "Toronto: Love it or hate it?" discussion.


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## Journeyman (2 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> discussion


:rofl:  Never mind. I had no idea the suggestion would be so problematic.


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## Eaglelord17 (2 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Michael Gravelle, the Minister of Northern Development and Mines, had this to say about what effect the proposed secession of Toronto would have on Northern Ontario, ( presumably a similar effect were the North to secede ),
> 
> "I look at it from the perspective of would this be good for Northern Ontario . . . and I don‘t think it would be.”
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal_for_the_Province_of_Toronto#History
> ...



Let the North look after the North, the reality is we have industry to sustain ourselves, a completely different population base than Toronto with much different opinions (as mentioned the North tends to either be Conservative or NDP depending on if there is a major industry in the area), and much different needs. Its simple things like the fact the trans-Canada isn't double-laned, that drive us crazy, not whatever social issue is the new fad in the city. Or as mentioned Northern Ontario would also fit in more with Manitoba whose population is very similar in both mindset and issues.


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## mariomike (2 Apr 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Or as mentioned Northern Ontario would also fit in more with Manitoba whose population is very similar in both mindset and issues.



Mantario has a nice ring to it!


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## McG (2 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you wish, secession from Ontario can be split and merged into the existing 5-page "City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver" discussion.


Shouldn’t that one be titled “City-state provinces in Canada? Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa-Gatineau, and Vancouver” based on the the frequency that a national capital district comes up in the discussion?


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## dapaterson (2 Apr 2018)

I'd prefer adding back the former name of the Quebec side of the National Capital Region, and calling it Hull-Ottawa-Gatineau, or HOG for short.

The jokes write themselves.


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## Loachman (3 Apr 2018)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Tory argues Toronto is a global metropolis with needs that go way beyond and are more complex than cities and towns much smaller in Ontario. "I heard the minister refer this morning, in the same breath as talking about Toronto, to the bus service to Wawa and Sioux Lookout. Wawa has one bus and you call it to come to your house to pick you up. The notion that we would be compared, and I say this with no disrespect to these communities whatsoever, I've been in them all, but the notion you would compare the needs of a city of millions of people, that has millions of people going to work on transit and going to school everyday and the notion that we would be put in with them is part of the problem, here."



"Way beyond and ... more complex"?

Same stuff, different scale. That's all.

The needs of individual people vary quite little, if at all, between big city and small town.

Toronto has a bigger city government, and more public servants and employees and a huge tax base to fund its "way beyond and ... more complex".

If they can't handle the job with what they've got, changing their political status is not going to change that one bit. They'd just be crying for equalization payments.


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## Remius (3 Apr 2018)

And they can request military aid directly instead of going through the province first for things like snowstorms, bee clouds and backed up sewers...


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## dapaterson (3 Apr 2018)

Remius said:
			
		

> And they can request military aid directly instead of going through the province first for things like snowstorms, bee clouds and backed up sewers...



Fortunately, no risk of an ALEA ask in the event of a Stanley Cup win.


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## Loachman (3 Apr 2018)

https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2018/04/03/premier-wynne-backs-gaffe-prone-mississauga-mpp-who-boasted-about-liberal-government-tripling-provinces-debt.html

Mississauga Liberal MPP says sorry for boasting about the province’s debt level

By Rob Ferguson Queen's Park Bureau

Tues., April 3, 2018

“We have tripled (the debt) and we’re proud of it, because we can afford it,” Delaney, added in the exchange caught on audio tape. 

“It’s the responsible thing to do. It’s the correct thing to do. It’s what people have asked us to do and I would do it again and do it proudly,” he told the crowd at a Streetsville restaurant.


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