# 14 July 2016:  +80 dead in truck attack in southern France



## The Bread Guy (14 Jul 2016)

Usual "initial report" caveats (attached) apply - I hardly know what to say any more ...  


> At least 73 people were killed Thursday night when a large truck plowed through a crowd celebrating Bastille Day in Nice, France, the Nice prosecutor's office said, according to French media.
> 
> The driver pointed his tractor-trailer into the crowd and accelerated, mowing bodies over. The driver was shot to death, authorities said. At least 100 people were injured, authorities said.
> 
> ...


More from Google News here.

_- mod edit to update thread title with latest stats -_


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## AbdullahD (14 Jul 2016)

More senseless stupidity.

Retroactive abortions are needed for people like this.

May the innocent rip


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## tomahawk6 (14 Jul 2016)

I wonder how many more attacks have to happen before Europe expels their "immigrants" ?


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## brihard (14 Jul 2016)

I'm in France right now. The news broke around midnight, so the response will be muted til tomorrow. Not sure what happens then.

Photos and videos of the attack are ugly. Looks like he didn't stop til police absolutely lit him up, the front of the truck is riddled.

Today was Bastille Day- massive national holiday celebrating the French Revolution. Akin to our Canada day. Crowds everywhere were huge.


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## tomahawk6 (14 Jul 2016)

French authorities said the truck was loaded with guns and grenades.



> BREAKING: Christian Estrosi, president of the region, says the truck in Nice was loaded with arms and grenades.



Absolute carnage.My prayers are with the families of those killed and injured in this cowardly attack.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=Nice+terror+attack&fr=yfp-t&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fthecount.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fnice-terror-attack-accident-scene-400x398.jpg#id=16&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fs.yimg.com%2Fbt%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2FrFlSWQks5Q7d.MnKPbe46g--%2FYXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztmaT1maWxsO2g9Mzc3O2lsPXBsYW5lO3B4b2ZmPTUwO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTY3MA--%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2Fgma%2Fus.abcnews.gma.com%2Fgty_nice_truck_attack_jc_160714_16x9_992.jpg&action=click


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## Cdn Blackshirt (14 Jul 2016)

Hoping this is the time the French clerics unite, deny an islamic burial and declare the perp a heretic who has no right to join Allah in the afterlife.

That's going to be the only way to deter a lone wolf who thinks they are earning Islamic glory in the afterlife with these types of attacks.


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## AbdullahD (14 Jul 2016)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Hoping this is the time the French clerics unite, deny an islamic burial and declare the perp a heretic who has no right to join Allah in the afterlife.



Aye, I definetly can't see that hurting the situation.



> That's going to be the only way to deter a lone wolf who thinks they are earning Islamic glory in the afterlife with these types of attacks.



First issue.. they will just call us kafrs and corrupted by the "evil westerners". I agree it needs to be done, for sure. But other steps must follow. Otherwise it will just be an isolated and ineffective effeminate attack on extremism. Now having said that, there is already loads being done to combat extremists ideologies... that they have already started wanting western imams dead.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2016-04-13/news/72294925_1_muslim-clerics-isis-terror-group-imams

I know I am a known quantity here and this could be expected from me. The senseless killings tick me off.

Second issue. I'll keep an eye on, I'll reach out to my acquaintances in France to help if I can get him on Facebook. But here is a start, on Islamic groups speaking out;

Union of Islamic organizations (france)

http://www.uoif-online.com/communiques/attentat-criminel-a-nice/

Also I haven't honestly had time to review this letter... but it could be a start.. the summary at the start seemed very thorough (I also suspect it is the letter some of my scholar friends have signed off on.. but don't quote me on that yet please).

Oh and fair warning it is 23 pages 
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com

Brihard.. I know most likely you are safe and not in any harm whatsoever... but you are in my thoughts and prayers. Be safe and hopefully God watches over you and all those you care about. (If this annoys you, sorry.)

Abdullah


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## daftandbarmy (14 Jul 2016)

Aux armes les citoyens


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## wannabe SF member (15 Jul 2016)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Hoping this is the time the French clerics unite, deny an islamic burial and declare the perp a heretic who has no right to join Allah in the afterlife.
> 
> That's going to be the only way to deter a lone wolf who thinks they are earning Islamic glory in the afterlife with these types of attacks.



On who's authority? Sunni Islam does not possess a clergy in the traditional sense that can make such claims. For every Imam you find willing to make such a declaration, dozens in the middle east will declare him a martyr.

Anyways, it's not like you can deny his family the rites of burial.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jul 2016)

A paper in Nice (in French -- Google English translation here) identifies the driver as a 31-year-old Tunisian Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, with a record of "delinquency".  There's a reference in the Google English version to "radicalization not being noticed" or _something_ like that (_"ça radicalisation serait passée inaperçue"_) - love to hear from a Francophone who can clarify that.

Latest death toll (in French):  80+


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## Lightguns (15 Jul 2016)

Interesting that the Canadian media call today is not how to stop this, but to not show the images "out of respect for the families of the victims".  A lot of Islamic apologist BS.  I say make everyone look, it worked with the Germans at the end of WW2.


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## AbdullahD (15 Jul 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Interesting that the Canadian media call today is not how to stop this, but to not show the images "out of respect for the families of the victims".  A lot of Islamic apologist BS.  I say make everyone look, it worked with the Germans at the end of WW2.




Can you explain better?

Blood is blood, death is death. There is nothing pretty about it and why would there be a need to share it? It could just inspire more copycat attacks.

I edited because I was being a disrespectful ****


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jul 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Interesting that the Canadian media call today is not how to stop this, but to not show the images "out of respect for the families of the victims".  A lot of Islamic apologist BS.  I say make everyone look, it worked with the Germans at the end of WW2.


Even if someone you love was killed there?  Or if 80+ people had been run down where you live?

Just to be "that guy", does that mean you're all for news networks airing jihadi videos showing dead victims -- we're seeing the results of terrorism there _too_, aren't we?  Or is it OK having only _one_ side "show all the bodies to whip up the masses"?  What happened to the argument that showing the crimes all over the place only fuels the bad guys and may cause copy-cats?


			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend.
> 
> Margaret Thatcher
> 
> Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/margaretth162424.html#qI6sVTfptZWC8F5V.99


I don't think media repectfully "showing the tragedy" is _quite_ the same as apologizing for or minimizing terrorism ...


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## jollyjacktar (15 Jul 2016)

Inky said:
			
		

> On who's authority? Sunni Islam does not possess a clergy in the traditional sense that can make such claims. For every Imam you find willing to make such a declaration, dozens in the middle east will declare him a martyr.
> 
> Anyways, it's not like you can deny his family the rites of burial.




If the state wanted to be dicks, they could cremate the bastard's remains and hand the urn over to the family to bury or whatever.  Cremation would, by the terrorists beliefs, bar him from entering Paradise.  If that is, his haram actions of killing innocent people wasn't enough already and assuming there really is an afterlife these lowlife's head to.


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## George Wallace (15 Jul 2016)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Can you explain better?
> 
> Blood is blood, death is death. There is nothing pretty about it and why would there be a need to share it? It could just inspire more copycat attacks.



AbdullahD

When the Allies liberated the "Death Camps" they brought in all the civilians from the surrounding towns, some of whom had no idea what the Nazi Party was doing in those camps, and marched them through to show them the dead and conditions found in the Camps.  Perhaps this has a current affect on the German condition in being a "tolerant" society and Political Correctness run amok.  

Shielding the Public from these atrocities in 1945 may have had the effect of making the "Holocaust" a long forgotten memory and a whole different and more violent world than it is today.


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## George Wallace (15 Jul 2016)

CNN is now reporting that two Canadians are among the dead.

[edit]  Now news are saying that two "are NOT" Canadians.  Confusion in the reporting of the mother and daughter murder case in Calgary being reported along with events in Nice.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (15 Jul 2016)

Yes. Here on the South Shore of Montreal, local media reports that one of the Canadian is a local resident of one of our small towns, expatriate Frenchman now Canadian, who was from Nice originally and visiting with remaining family.

Condolences to all the families.


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## PuckChaser (15 Jul 2016)

Inky said:
			
		

> For every Imam you find willing to make such a declaration, dozens in the middle east will declare him a martyr.



And that's why God invented the Reaper drone with Hellfire missiles. How many more declarations get made when the Imam blows up before his hate speech is over?


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## brihard (15 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And that's why God invented the Reaper drone with Hellfire missiles. How many more declarations get made when the Imam blows up before his hate speech is over?



Assassinating foreign nationals on foreign soil merely for what they say... I see no way that could possibly go wrong and backfire horribly on us.


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## mariomike (15 Jul 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Or if 80+ people had been run down where you live?



Nothing new about rubberneckers at scenes. 
But, at Mass Casualty Incidents, maybe they should put the camera down, find a victim and try to help. Talk gently to them. You may be the last kind voice they hear.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (15 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And that's why God invented the Reaper drone with Hellfire missiles. How many more declarations get made when the Imam blows up before his hate speech is over?



Perhaps we should leave God out of the weapons manufacturing business ... but feel free to thank the engineers at General Atomic, Boeing, LockMart or Northrop Gruman.  :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jul 2016)

_- Edited to add English-language statement from French President -_

Statement from the President of France attached (in French).

This from Canada's PM ...


> The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today issued the following statement after learning of the terrorist attack in Nice, France:
> 
> “I was heartbroken to learn of the many dozens of innocent victims who were killed or injured as a result of today’s terrorist attack that targeted Bastille Day celebrations in Nice, France.
> 
> ...


... and foreign affairs minister ...


> “We condemn this horrific terrorist attack, and we offer our deepest condolences to the families and friends of those killed and a speedy recovery to those injured. Canadians are deeply saddened by this tragedy and we stand in solidarity with the people of France on their national day.
> 
> “The Consulate of Canada in Nice is in communication with local authorities and the Emergency Watch and Response Centre is active and assisting Canadians.
> 
> ...


... as well as the U.S. President:


> On behalf of the American people, I condemn in the strongest terms what appears to be a horrific terrorist attack in Nice, France, which killed and wounded dozens of innocent civilians. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and other loved ones of those killed, and we wish a full recovery for the many wounded.  I have directed my team to be in touch with French officials, and we have offered any assistance that they may need to investigate this attack and bring those responsible to justice. We stand in solidarity and partnership with France, our oldest ally, as they respond to and recover from this attack.
> 
> On this Bastille Day, we are reminded of the extraordinary resilience and democratic values that have made France an inspiration to the entire world, and we know that the character of the French Republic will endure long after this devastating and tragic loss of life.


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## tomahawk6 (15 Jul 2016)




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## OldSolduer (15 Jul 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should leave God out of the weapons manufacturing business ... but feel free to thank the engineers at General Atomic, Boeing, LockMart or Northrop Gruman.  :nod:



The belief in "God" and the twisting of holy books and scripture is part of the problem.


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## a_majoor (15 Jul 2016)

The National Front comes out demanding a declaration of war, and other French opposition parties also have deserted the "Unity" facade:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-15/attack-in-nice-draws-barbs-from-opposition-after-year-of-silence



> *French Unity Cracks as Opposition Slams Nice Security Response*
> Gregory Viscusi
> Alexandre Boksenbaum-Granier
> July 15, 2016 — 9:37 AM EDT
> ...


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## mariomike (15 Jul 2016)

Be interesting to know if _Service Mobile d'Urgence et Reanimation _ ( SMUR ) used their "stay and play" ( as opposed to the North American "load and go" ) method of pre-hospital patient care at Nice. 
( For example, SMUR took 110 minutes to get Princess Diana to a hospital that was ten minutes away. )

Not to suggest one method is better or worse than the other, just different. 

SMUR
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_medical_services_in_France#SMUR


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## Oldgateboatdriver (15 Jul 2016)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The belief in "God" and the twisting of holy books and scripture is part of the problem.



Incorrect, Mr. Seggie.

 :highjack:

The belief in "God" is not part of the problem: It is the problem. Hence, I want it left out by all sides. As was astutely noted by one of the greatest modern days essayist: When people kill in the name of religion, religion is the name of the problem.

And there is no "twisting" of holy books and scripture. Rather the contrary: These people are taking the words written in those allegedly "holy" texts literally and applying them exactly as written. Any alleged divine being all knowing and all powerful who would have created humans would have known that a large portion of these human would be too stupid to give these words anything but their most blatant and literal meaning. The fact that more care was not taken then in drafting  texts that would propound peace and peaceful existence only shows that no such being is behind the drafting.

Imagine there is no heaven;
No hell below us;
Above us only sky.

And when humanity grows out of its still infantile belief in paranormal beings and accepts the immortal words of John Lennon, then living for today - instead of dying for a non-existent infinite tomorrow - will make most wars disappear.

That's it - I'm not going any further because this is not the right thread.


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## jollyjacktar (15 Jul 2016)

:goodpost:  300 points inbound


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jul 2016)

ISIL "supporters" happy, but no claim of responsibility yet (via MEMRI _Jihad & Terrorism Threat Monitor_) ...


> Following the truck attack in Nice, France on the night of July 14, 2016, which claimed the lives of at least 84 people, ISIS supporters online expressed joy, congratulated the perpetrators, and stressed that the attack came in retaliation for airstrikes by coalition jets, including ones from France, in Syria and Iraq, which killed innocent Muslims. ISIS sympathizers on Telegram also posted banners lauding the attack and vowing that members of the Islamic State would continue to strike France and the West.
> 
> The Dabiq Telegram channel posted a comment by an ISIS supporter with the username miqdad, who wrote: "Whether the Islamic State claimed responsibility for the first operation in Paris or not – and it eventually did – and even if it has yet to claim responsibility for the Nice operation, which is still vague at this point [meaning no one had claimed responsibility for it] – our hearts are still filled with joy of a level we have yet to experience! How can we not rejoice when we see the organs of the infidel Crusaders, who launched a war on Islam, strewn about here and there?! How can we not rejoice after being sad when they bombed Muslim lands in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere in cold blood?! Do we not deserve joy?!"
> 
> ...


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## a_majoor (15 Jul 2016)

You don't need an explicit belief in a divine being(s) to unleash all kinds of horror. the very secular National Socialists and various Communist regimes in the 20th century killed _tens of millions_ of people in pursuit of their secular goals (Nazi Germany 6 million, Comunist Russia 20 million, Communist China estimates go as high as 65 million, and that is just the "big three"). 

Listening to SJW's, Global Warming alarmists, anti gun zealots and other Authoratarian Leftist rhetoric, they also seem hell bent on stripping us of our rights and freedoms, and imprisoning or killing those who _they_ don't approve of. (Alinsky evidently believed that it would take the deaths of about 20 million Americans to bring about his vision of the promised land, and the extreme view of the Greens and Global Warming alarmists is that _billions_ of human beings have to die in order to bring about their version of Utopia).

So we don't need religion as the cover or motivation, it is just familiar and easy to use.


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## jollyjacktar (15 Jul 2016)

Well, the"Gott mit uns", "God is with us"  credo on the belt buckle of a German soldier from either war wasn't as a English speaking joker might say a question about mittens.   Not, totally secular, then...


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## a_majoor (15 Jul 2016)

Nice as an Islamic Radical PSYOPS campaign against fellow Muslims:

http://atimes.com/2016/07/why-the-terrorists-are-winning-the-intelligence-war/



> *Nice attack: Why the terrorists are winning the intelligence war — Spengler*
> BY DAVID P. GOLDMAN on JULY 15, 2016 in AT TOP WRITERS, DAVID P. GOLDMAN, MIDDLE EAST, SPENGLER
> 
> Yet another criminal known to security services has perpetrated a mass killing, the Tunisian Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel. Why did the French police allow a foreign national with a criminal record of violence to reside in France? Apart from utter incompetence, the explanation is that he was a snitch for the French authorities. Blackmailing Muslim criminals to inform on prospective terrorists is the principal activity of European counter-terrorism agencies, as I noted in 2015. Every Muslim in Europe knows this.
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jul 2016)

And we have the claim of responsibility (from a "source" speaking to ISIS's media feed folk) from ISIS/ISIL (source - U of Waterloo academic Twitter post) ...


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## jollyjacktar (16 Jul 2016)

A story about where dickhead got the truck from.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3693329/He-wanted-biggest-powerful-vehicle-Truck-terrorist-ordered-massive-19-tonne-lorry-create-maximum-number-victims-says-garage-boss.html


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## George Wallace (16 Jul 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Seriously though, it did cross my mind that renting a truck of this size might just be a wee bit more difficult now for certain demographics in France after this.  Or at least rental companies might have to alert authorities that so and so has just rented a large truck.



Well.  According to the article, he did not have the proper category of Lic to drive that large a truck, but he still was able to rent it. ....  Someone at the Truck Rental company is likely losing their job.


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## a_majoor (16 Jul 2016)

France calls for the Levée en masse (sort of). One can only imagine what would happen if Canada was to face such dire straights and need to significantly bolster the size and capabilities of our Reserve:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/paris-calls-willing-citizens-become-reservists-172826456.html



> *Paris urges young citizens to become reservists*
> 
> Paris (AFP) - French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve on Saturday called on young citizens to become reservists and help boost security forces in the wake of the country's latest terror attack.
> 
> ...


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## ModlrMike (16 Jul 2016)

> The way to win the war is to frighten the larger community of Muslims who passively support terror by action or inaction–frighten them so badly that they will inform on family members. Frightening the larger Muslim population in the West does not require a great deal of effort: a few thousand deportations would do. Western intelligence services do not even have to deport the right people; the wrong people know who they are, and so do many of their neighbors. The ensuing conversation is an easy one to have. “I understand that your nephew is due for deportation, Hussein, and I believe you when you tell me that he has done nothing wrong. I might be able to help you. But you have to help me. Give me something I can use–and don’t waste my time by making things up, or I swear that I’ll deport you, too. If you don’t have any information, then find out who does.”



The problem with this approach is that we have too many people ready to claim "islamaphobia", and too little stomach to get on with the job.


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## Baloo (17 Jul 2016)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The problem with this approach is that we have too many people ready to claim "islamaphobia", and too little stomach to get on with the job.



What is the job, exactly? Seems like it is mass deportations, imprisonment or torture of North American citizens without justification.

I think we can pass on that job.


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## PuckChaser (17 Jul 2016)

Baloo said:
			
		

> What is the job, exactly? Seems like it is mass deportations, imprisonment or torture of North American citizens without justification.
> 
> I think we can pass on that job.


You don't kill the ideology by cutting off the fingers and toes in North America. You go for the head and kill the leadership and figureheads. People stop following when they realize it's bad for their health, especially the ones in western countries.


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## Baloo (17 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You don't kill the ideology by cutting off the fingers and toes in North America. You go for the head and kill the leadership and figureheads. People stop following when they realize it's bad for their health, especially the ones in western countries.



Considering that Nice, Istanbul, Orlando, Paris, Brussels, San Bernadino, Ottawa, Boston, et al., involved Western citizens that were killed in the course of their attacks by law enforcement, or that targeted strikes of insurgent leadership or membership has been going on for almost a decade, I would suggest that people aren't agreeing with you.

It is part of the approach, however.


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## PuckChaser (17 Jul 2016)

ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.


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## ModlrMike (17 Jul 2016)

Baloo said:
			
		

> What is the job, exactly? Seems like it is mass deportations, imprisonment or torture of North American citizens without justification.
> 
> I think we can pass on that job.



No, this job:



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> ISIL holding ground gives them the appearance of legitimacy. We need to take away that ground. No amount of drone strikes does that. That's kind of where I was going with the analogy.


That said, it seems these guys ...





... have still been pretty busy, even though they've never had a land base, and their "charter boss" sleeps with the fishes ...




... so while bombing ISIS/ISiL back to the Stone Age & beyond may be _part_ of the answer, ISIS/ISIL'll still be able to poke & incite even without its land base, so that bit also has to be solved.


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jul 2016)

Sadly there is not much you can do with the true believers.Until the imams preach against hate and violence the radicals will strike out at unprotected civilian populace.Europe has been invaded by people who seem determined to take control rather than be part of their new country.Time to send them back to their home countries.Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.


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## AbdullahD (17 Jul 2016)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Sadly there is not much you can do with the *true* believers.



Can not agree with you more.



> *Until* the imams preach against hate and violence



Until?

https://www.google.ca/search?q=yasir+qashi+on+terrorism&oq=yasir+qashi+on+terrorism&aqs=chrome..69i57.7359j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.ca/search?q=imams+against+violence&oq=imams+against+violence&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.6321j0j4&client=ms-android-bell-ca&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.ca/search?client=ms-android-bell-ca&ei=YdOLV_CcOMq6jwOm_47ACA&q=imams+against+terrorism&oq=imams+against+terrori&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.0.0j0i22i30.31209.34438.0.35327.16.16.0.0.0.0.270.2019.1j13j1.15.0.cgmwq...0...1.1j4.64.mobile-gws-serp..2.14.1746...35i39j0i67j0i20.R4yOfvwT7oY



> the radicals will strike out at unprotected civilian populace.



Sadly we agree again
https://markmanson.net/terrorism



> Europe has been invaded by people who seem determined to take control



I suppose you mean this?we can barely agree on Ramadan on eid let alone taking over a non-Muslim country...
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/we-asked-an-expert-how-islamists-could-actually-take-over-the-uk-998



> rather than be part of their new country.



http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/show-these-three-headlines-to-anyone-who-says-british-muslims-dont-integrate--WkVn2_CjZb

http://abuaminaelias.com/obeying-the-law-in-non-muslim-countries/



> Time to send them back to their home countries.



Because?
http://www.chicagonow.com/midwestern-muslim/2014/01/muslims-dont-contribute-to-america-think-again/



> Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.



No serious comment here.

Abdullah

PS yea it was personal, were would you send me? Wales? Where my grandma was from?


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## George Wallace (17 Jul 2016)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Just like the Borg the muslims will not assimilate.



They don't have to assimilate.  It would benefit all if they integrate.


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jul 2016)

Divided by a common language we are.So I looked up the words assimilate and integrate.If I were to live in France or Germany I would be expected to learn the language and laws of the host country.

1)assimilation happens to be a process where the ethnic minority loses some of its features and adopts some of the features of the majority to appear like the majority community.

2)Assimilation is an attempt made by ethnic minorities, to adopt the customs and traditions of the majority community so that they become similar to the majority culture.

3)Integration is the process whereby ethnic minorities are absorbed into a majority culture.


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## George Wallace (17 Jul 2016)

"Integration" is a creature created by our "Multiculturalism" for better or worse.


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## AbdullahD (18 Jul 2016)

Since the argument being brought is that "Muslims" are not assimilating into Canadian or other western countries. Can someone please explain to me what "Islamic" value or practices are hindering that?

On following laws in non Muslim countries
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8502

Canadian multiculturalism act
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Multiculturalism_Act

Difference between culture and religion 
http://www.differencebtw.com/difference-between-culture-and-religion/

As long as people think "Islam" is the problem, I will object. If people or a person were to realize that many issues they have with the religion do not and should not arise in non-Muslim countries. Also that the disgusting acts that happen within certain cultures are just that and should be removed then I have no issues. Furthermore that many things purported to be "Islamic" are in no way that at all then ill be even more happy.

So what are these "Islamic" things we should lose in order to be in the west? Or is it just cultural stuff?

Lets not demonize the wrong people.

Abdullah

Ps anything that is not obligatory in the sharia that is deemed illegal by a countries legal system is thus also not permissible to do for Muslims doubly so, because our sharia would forbid it. Only time that changes is with obligatory acts like fasting and prayer.


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## jollyjacktar (18 Jul 2016)

The thing is, Abdullah, that the one's who seem to be yelling the loudest for adoption of Sharia law in places like the UK (for example) also are yelling that the laws of the land shouldn't/don't apply to them as they're not Sharia law as that law trumps the former (the VIA Rail terrorist comes to mind in particular).  Now according to what you're saying, Sharia only is applicable if it doesn't conflict with the law the land in question.  

This results in lots of confusion then.  You're saying not to worry as it must not conflict with the law of the land.  Others are saying the exact opposite, that the law of the land is beneath them and they don't have to pay attention to it, only Sharia.

Then you get, as you describe, cultural practices/beliefs that are not befitting our society here (honour killings for example) and therefore as cultural have SFA to do with Islam, but the participants seem to be Muslims... (the Shafia family of thugs)

So as outsiders, we're getting mixed messages.  We see on one hand someone such as yourself, quietly educating as they go along.  And on the other hand we see the bad apples if you will, who apparently believe they have it correct and everyone else is wrong or the enemy (but, they're not the quiet ones are they?)  I haven't even touched on the Wahabbi SOB's that are acting as agitators amongst the faithful or bastards who commit atrocities like Nice.

Is it any wonder Sharia/Muslims are getting looked at with lots of suspicion by outsiders here in the West?


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## Oldgateboatdriver (18 Jul 2016)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> So what are these "Islamic" things we should lose in order to be in the west? Or is it just cultural stuff?



Since you ask (and nicely, as usual), Abdullah, I believe you deserve an answer.

So here are the five Islamic things that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has identified in her book _Heretic - Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now_ as being the "_*five core concepts in Islam that are fundamentally incompatible with modernity*_" and which need reformation now:

" _*1. the status of the Qur'an as the last and immutable word of God and the infallibility of Muhammad as the last divinely inspired messenger;
2. Islam's emphasis on the afterlife over the here-and-now;
3. the claims of sharia to be a comprehensive system of law governing both the spiritual and the temporal realms;
4. the obligation on ordinary muslims to command right and forbid wrong;
5. the concept of jihad, or holy war.*_"

This comes from a modern day muslim, I did not make those up. I am quoting pages 234-235 of her book.

Ball is back in your camp ... so to speak.


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## YZT580 (18 Jul 2016)

I will add one more to the list. Please name, if you can, a single Islamic country that will permit a Muslim to chose to convert to another faith without fear of repercussion.


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## Remius (18 Jul 2016)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> I will add one more to the list. Please name, if you can, a single Islamic country that will permit a Muslim to chose to convert to another faith without fear of repercussion.



That's pretty complicated.  Many of those countries have the death penalty for that kind of thing.  Some have civil implications rather than criminal implications.  I'm pretty sure though that all though are dangerous places to be if you convert regardless of the laws in place.  

this wiki gives a good breakdown.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

Note that Bangladesh has no laws against it.  But many religious leaders call for death...

Others have no specific laws against it but have so called "Blasphemy laws" to cover their bases.


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## AbdullahD (18 Jul 2016)

This is me swearing all sorts of profanities, I just lost a large chunk of what I had written. 

Cut, copy, paste and auto save conspired to hinder me on my phone. So I am back to the drawing board (quite annoyed too).

I will answer, just likely tomorrow once I stop mentally swearing (maybe later tonight.. doubt it though).

Abdullah


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## The Bread Guy (18 Jul 2016)

Ukrainian national/Canadian permanent resident confirmed dead in Nice attack, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ ...


> Days after MacEwan University confirmed one of their students, part of a group studying in Nice, France, was unaccounted for, the Ukrainian Embassy in Ottawa confirmed a citizen of that country had died in an attack in that city.
> 
> Late Monday morning, an embassy spokesperson confirmed to CTV News that one Ukrainian citizen died in the July 14 attack where a truck plowed through a crowd out celebrating Bastille Day in Nice. The spokesperson said that individual was studying in Alberta, but could not release his name.
> 
> ...


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## jollyjacktar (18 Jul 2016)

I like the idea of it, although it should be on his grave.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3695834/Furious-mourners-spit-stamp-throw-cigarette-butts-hate-memorial-rocks-rubbish-spot-Nice-truck-terrorist-killed.html#comments


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## daftandbarmy (18 Jul 2016)

Please stop saying the Nice attacks have nothing to do with Islam

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/


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## AbdullahD (18 Jul 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Since you ask (and nicely, as usual), Abdullah, I believe you deserve an answer.
> 
> So here are the five Islamic things that Ayaan Hirsi Ali has identified in her book _Heretic - Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now_ as being the "_*five core concepts in Islam that are fundamentally incompatible with modernity*_" and which need reformation now:



Ayaan Hirsi Ali, looks like she is famous for hating on Islam.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

http://www.alternet.org/media/anti-islam-author-ayaan-hirsi-alis-latest-deception

Other people debunking her work
https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/william-eichler/heretics-and-liberals-what-ayaan-hirsi-ali-gets-wrong

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6952412.html

This one touches on the claims made in the heretic
http://thehumanist.com/voices/rules_are_for_schmucks/rules-are-for-schmucks-why-ayaan-hirsi-ali-is-wrong

" _*1. the status of the Qur'an as the last and immutable word of God and the infallibility of Muhammad as the last divinely inspired messenger;*_[/quote]

I am sorry, but she is pretty much saying that Muslims need to leave Islam here in order to fit into western society.. which is ah.. interesting to say the least.

Articles of faith in Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_(concept)

The 5 pillars of Islam
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Pillars_of_Islam

A ruling on it
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/29620

This is what Islam is belief that Muhammad is the last Messenger and that the Quran is the word of God. Now if Muslims are arrogantly preaching that then I can see an issue.. but if they respectfully spread this.. I can not see harm.. heck the Latter day saints and the good ole Jehovahs do it already and they dont seem so radical (well actually nvm lol  i kid i kid).



> 2. Islam's emphasis on the afterlife over the here-and-now;



A description of heaven a two part series

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/11/pleasures-of-paradise-part-1/

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/10/pleasures-of-paradise-part-2/

This life can be measured sadly sometimes in minutes or seconds, other times in years or decades. Whereas our time in the after life will be forever, because we will not die again after we wake (rise/reborn) from our first death. So we consider it silly to put to much focus on the temporary and sacrifice the eternal, but w e must have balance in life because we need to move through this life in a way that is pleasing to Allah to obtain our goals.

A little read on balance in life;
https://islamqa.info/en/105352

So yes we emphasize the afterlife because it is our ultimate goal, but totally giving up trying for things in this life is Haram. We have to be productive and balanced in this life too.

https://islamqa.info/en/103889

This topic didn't seem horribly important to me, I hope i gave it a fair shake... if I didn't let me know and I'll add more. But I considered it silly that this idea needed to be removed in order for Muslims to assimilate in the west, because I have never seen this as part of the issue.



> 3. the claims of sharia to be a comprehensive system of law governing both the spiritual and the temporal realms;



A fairly thorough definition of Sharia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

Sources for Islamic rulings  (aka making the sharia)
https://islamqa.info/en/112268

Now their are things that are covered by Islamic law and the sharia.. and things that are not. There are things that are considered obligatory and things that are considered encouraged or neutral or disliked. The sharia gets a lot of hate, because people misinterpret it and force people to do things (which i may add is forbidden).

I am a believer that the Sharia is comprehensive, but not exhaustive. Ie within the sharia you can find tips for how to get deals suchs as getting three quotes for a price before buying.. but it is not obligatory to follow these guidelines and the sharia wont explain to you why GMC products are so much better then Ford's.

The sharia's main goal is to get everyone to paradise, outside of this main goal there is a *lot * of lee way. Heck the sharia will teach you sex etiquette but it is hardly obligatory to follow it all lol, so yea it is comprehensive and the more you follow it the closer to God you can become but! You dont need to follow every single thing.

http://www.livingislam.org/n/sexm_e.html
No.. I didn't read it.. lol.

Also I'll add a final note.. the arrogance and pride could be part of the issue here. Ie the sharia is best and all man made law is bad, which is not true at all.. but some Muslims may say that. Any good reforms that non-Muslims make that do not contravene the fundamental obligations of Islam can be incorporated into the sharia if it is beneficial for the people of that time. Because, the sharia changes according to the needs of the people.



> 4. the obligation on ordinary muslims to command right and forbid wrong;



This one... I dont even see how this is an issue. On one hand non Muslims claim we don't report issues in our communities or stop the evil (forbidding wrong), yet it is an issue for Muslims to be a good part of western society?

I'll try to give this one a fair shake.. but please forgive me if I missed the point (well if I missed the poit on any of these please show me).

Fatawa on the subject  it does note that only a group of Muslims need to enjoin good and forbid evil... so right off the bat it shows not all Muslims have to.
https://islamqa.info/en/11403

Muslims can call to good and forbid in many ways, one such way is just by being a good example and someone others want to be like. It doesn't need to be more then that, but if Muslims see crimes committed they should report it, if Muslims see someone doing bad things they can encourage the person to stop it with good words, gifts, etc. It does not need to be physical force, but mind you if a lot Muslims I know see a woman (lets say) being raped and or beat.. we may just use physical force albeit the hadith saying stop it with your hands (close to the meaning) just means to make proactive actions to stop bad acts.

So not all Muslims have to enjoin good and forbid evil, so this one should not be an issue at all. But I personally think they should in what ways they can and be comfortable.



> 5. the concept of jihad, or holy war.[/b][/i]"



General jihad
https://islamqa.info/en/20214

(Easier read)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/beliefs/jihad_1.shtml

Some rules of war
http://myjihad.org/prophet-muhammads-rules-of-war/

Now my understanding of military jihad as flawed as it may be (oddly I have been lax in this area of my studies, so please forgive me), is as follows.

Muslims can launch defensive military action against any invading force, which I believe is an accepted action. They can also launch an pre emptive strike if they have solid conclusive information that an army is preparing to invade, which again in my personal opinion is not such a big deal as long as the information is correct and not corrupt.. I think a standard war strategy is not to fight on your homeland if you can avoid it...

Now there are more Islamic rules for military jihad then what was linked, but I think that link will give a good enough idea and show daesh is hardly launching an Islamic Jihad. But within the rules of Islamic war, if a person is residing in an non Muslim country that invades a Muslim country.. they have to leave and go to the invaded country if they feel the need to fight. They can NOT terrorize the invaders from within, that is forbidden, in fact if we ever feel we can not lawfully abide in the country we are staying we HAVE to leave it.

Mufti abu Layth had a wicked good video on Jihad and now I cant find it. He is not like a lot of apologists who say Jihad is only spiritual etc. But my understanding of military Jihad again flawed as it may be is exactly like how Canada or the USA would react in a war situation and because my understanding is that way.. i personally dont feel it needs to be defended or removed for Muslims to integrate or assimilate into Canada.. also me trying to get fit to join the Canadian forces and protect my countrymen in this beautiful land.. is also considered Jihad  I hope you guys dont think thats bad...

Now again if I missed something please show me.. I can be awfully dense some times..



> This comes from a modern day muslim, I did not make those up. I am quoting pages 234-235 of her book.
> 
> Ball is back in your camp ... so to speak.



Well by God I hope I didnt drop the ball. But the general gist was that these issues that Ayaan Hirsi Ali brought up, I don't think are issues for Muslims to integrate or assimilate with the west. Nothing in these points with normal Muslims need to be left behind.

Now having said that groups like daesh, al qaeda etc do have serious issues that make integrating or assimilating impossible, but the things they do that make it impossible to integrate with western society I consider un-Islamic for the most parts.

Now if this author had brought up the fact their is not really one book covering all the issues for Muslims of what they should follow, I'd have to concede to some extent.. because their is not. The legal systems that the four schools of thought have are significantly different, enough so that one comprehensive text on this subject would span many volumes and would be prohibitively expensive. But all four schools of thought have their own books,  which cover all these issues. Yet one set does not exist. But the four madhabs in there unalderated form are not extremist materials, albeit there are corruptions of them out there. We could use more comprehensive education of what Islam teaches, but I hardly think extremists truely care about what Islam actually is. I think no matter what, those wanting to, or those that are acceptable to, being radicalized will find the material anyway they can and that there are other issues that exist that that create radicalization. Then the Sharia and Islam get bastardized to suit their views.

@YZT580 I am not up to date on all the different Muslim countries, let alone the legal systems of each country. So sadly I can not answer that for you, but it looks like Remius covered it for me.

But if you start reading from here, I think my position on it will be fairly clear. Ie I dont think death penalty is a blanket statement or treatment.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/81276.875

Now i can be wrong, but I hope I answered to your level. If not, show me what I missed and Ill give it another go.. but i think ive outlined how Islam needs not leave anything behind in order for Muslims to be a part of the west.

Abdullah


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## a_majoor (18 Jul 2016)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Please stop saying the Nice attacks have nothing to do with Islam
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/



They all have to do with a radical interpretation of Islam, and a desire to assert themselves over a vastly wealthier and more advanced culture. Sadly, there will be a backlash (the attacks in Germany and the revelations of the large scales of sexual assaults against Germans, Scandanavians and British over the recent past are just more tinder for the fire), and it won't be pretty at all.


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## George Wallace (19 Jul 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> They all have to do with a radical interpretation of Islam, and a desire to assert themselves over a vastly wealthier and more advanced culture. Sadly, there will be a backlash (the attacks in Germany and the revelations of the large scales of sexual assaults against Germans, Scandanavians and British over the recent past are just more tinder for the fire), and it won't be pretty at all.



The claims that such attacks are ISIL inspired by ISIL days after such an event, could just be them claiming responsibility after the fact for a unrelated random event, to inflate their appearance on the world stage.

For instance; what will the claims be coming out of the interweb now that names have been released in this event:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Two men charged in connection to ByWard Market stabbings
> CTV Ottawa
> Published Sunday, July 17, 2016 12:24PM EDT
> Last Updated Monday, July 18, 2016 6:41PM EDT
> ...



More on LINK.


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## tomahawk6 (19 Jul 2016)

French security is concerned about the possibility of a civil war caused by right wing elements.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html#/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jul 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The claims that such attacks are ISIL inspired by ISIL days after such an event, could just be them claiming responsibility after the fact for a unrelated random event, to inflate their appearance on the world stage.


Good point, with a good example.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jul 2016)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> French security is concerned about the possibility of a civil war caused by right wing elements.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html#/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html


Algeria 2.0?


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## brihard (19 Jul 2016)

Just got back from visiting the site of the attack and the memorial that has sprung up... Shitty and sobering to be there in person.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Jul 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just got back from visiting the site of the attack and the memorial that has sprung up... Shitty and sobering to be there in person.



Thank you for being there.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Jul 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just got back from visiting the site of the attack and the memorial that has sprung up... Shitty and sobering to be there in person.



Yes, thank you for making the effort.  I can only imagine the emotions one must feel seeing the site.  I would be in sensory overload.

Hope you left something nasty on "his" hate cairn (if it still exists).


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## a_majoor (19 Jul 2016)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> French security is concerned about the possibility of a civil war caused by right wing Nativist elements.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html#/articles/2016/07/18/nice-attack-has-a-bisexual-muslim-hustler-put-france-on-the-path-to-civil-war.html



That tired old trope again. Looking at the political platforms of these groups reveals they are socialists (i.e. left wing), with a distinctly ethnic/nationalist bias as to "who" receives the benefits of the state.

Put the two together and you have....


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## a_majoor (19 Jul 2016)

Heroic attempts to stop the massacre. Some people _are_ able to run to the sound of the guns when needed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3696234/I-tried-open-door-pulled-gun-Hero-motorcyclist-reveals-moment-jumped-bike-stop-ISIS-killer-truck.html



> *'I tried to open the door.. he pulled out a gun': Hero motorcyclist reveals moment he jumped off his bike to stop ISIS killer truck*
> Frenchman Alexander Migues told of moment he leapt from his motorbike
> He clung on to ISIS killer Mohamed Bouhlel's 19-tonne death lorry in Nice
> But as he tried to get into the cab, the truck terrorist pulled his gun on him
> ...


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## brihard (20 Jul 2016)

Sharing my reflections on this, as I've previously written them elsewhere...





It's taken me some time to collect my thoughts about the attack in Nice. Today we visited the Promenade des Anglais where it happened, and stopped at the impromptu memorial that has arisen to pay our respects.

I really cannot think of a more idyllic and pleasant place than the waterfront of Nice on a beautiful day. I can see why so many visit, and why the Côte d'Azur is a playground for Europe and beyond. The attack itself occurred during France's national celebration; it would be like someone attacking the post-fireworks crowd on Canada Day. A bunch of normal people and families having fun together on what until then was probably a perfect evening. We were nearly here ourselves already to visit my partner's family; had she not chosen to spend Bastille Day in Paris, we likely would have been part of the Nice waterfront crowd. It reinforces on a personal level the sheer randomness and unpredictability of such violence.

It was jarring, the contradictions. Visiting today I was struck not exactly by how things were different, but by what seems to have become a new normal here. A hundred meters of waterfront boardwalk was covered with flowers and tributes, with hundreds of tourists like us stopping to pay respects before carrying on as they otherwise would have. Flags are at half mast, but, as they must, will rise again just as the city itself must. Sunbathers were spread out on the beach as normal, and tourists pay their Euros to go parasailing, but now under the watchful eye of a standing patrol of very serious looking French soldiers equipped and armed just as per service in war. But those soldiers have just become part of the background.

We're seeing that everywhere, heavily armed soldiers and police deployed as a deterrent in public places. The post-Paris state of emergency that was to have expired July 26th was extended. Military and police reservists have been called up en masse to bolster Opération Sentinelle. Of course, on the scale of a whole country, the ability of police and soldiers in any conceivable numbers to proactively protect anything but the most critical and symbolic targets is practically nil. If someone wants to attack a public but non-specific target, they will find a way past what is essentially a security blanket of thinly deployed forces.

France is extremely cosmopolitan. The diversity here exceeds anything I've seen in Canada. My concept of French culture has been shaped in the past by Québec, but the French are not nearly so insular and defensive about 'Frenchness' as the Québécois are. But it seems like the social fabric in the mainstream communities is stretched badly and fraying. It feels like tolerance is slipping, like a wedge is being driven between French society, and those communities that are seen as less than assimilated- it seems that merely being integrated into French society is increasingly no longer enough if you show any visible differences. Granted this is off my limited experience of a week on the ground and conversations with Cynthia's friends and family in the wake of the attacks, but it echoes what I've been hearing for some time now.

As Canadians I think we need to be much more attentive to what is happening in Europe. Make no mistake, it's coming our way. It's slower to cross the Atlantic, but the same crisis of radicalization will hit us if we allow it. Immigration is an immutable reality. We will continue to have people different from 'us' arriving in our country. Those already in Canada will raise families, kids will be born who are Canadian and nothing else. We must not allow ours to become a country with 'no-go' neighborhoods, where we have neglected to embrace those on our own soil as fellow Canadians, and where consequently enough feel alienated enough that the 'otherness' becomes self sustaining through generations. It has become a national security imperative NOT to be blindly suspicious, but to proactively engage communities that may be sliding to the fringe of our society. We will never be able to know or measure what we have prevented in doing so, but we will know when we don't.

Our police and intelligence services will always be trying their best to detect and proactively disrupt attacks. But each one so disrupted indicates a probable failure by our society to have averted the conditions that lead to radicalization in the first place.

I'm no blind optimist, certainly not a naive pacifist, and I don't espouse an unthinking 'kumbaya' approach to security. I do believe that 'terrorism' as a tactic is to a degree inevitable, BUT that no specific individual act is. It will happen because we cannot always get it right. But we've gotta get it as right as we can. That means being attentive to and reducing the conditions that allow for the confluence of desperate, pathetic and vulnerable individuals, and the emergence of groups who would exploit and radicalize them to commit violence. The attacks are planned by those who stand out, but generally perpetuated by those who are falling through the cracks. Let's try to detect and close those cracks, and as best we can make ours a society that it as hard as possible for one of our own to want to hurt.


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## mariomike (20 Sep 2016)

Sep 20, 2016 

8 new arrests in France truck attack that killed 86 in Nice
http://www.680news.com/2016/09/20/8-new-arrests-in-france-truck-attack-that-killed-86-in-nice/
PARIS – French authorities have made eight new arrests in connection with the Bastille Day truck attack in Nice that left 86 people dead, the Paris prosecutor’s office said Tuesday.


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