# Red/ Green/ White Poppies- Does The Colour Matter?- Merged



## combat_medic

A new kind of poppies were introduced with a black center to more effectively reflect the look of a real poppy. Which do you prefer?

Do you like the black center (new) or the green center (old)?


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## Jug

I think we should keep the symbology and the point of the poppy...not what color its center is.


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## ninty9

They are still selling the Red with Green centre because I purchased one a few days ago.  I was looking for the new one, but couldn‘t find it.  I think the black looks nice, but why didn‘t they do this in the first place.  I don‘t know if they should be changing things like this out of respect for those who have fought and died for our country.


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## combat_medic

Apprently it was black originally, and later got changed to green. The Royal Canadian Legion has been doing lots of research and discovered that people wanted the black-centered ones back. It was their decision, and they‘re currently trying to find out if people prefer them. They still have lots of the old green stock to get rid of (probably why you got one), but all the new ones will be black... for the time being.


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## Sharpey

I think it stands out a bit more. Makes the poppy more prominant. But that‘s just me.


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## Harry

Thanks medic, you are correct.  It was originally black.


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## Jug

It could be purple for all I care...as long as we remember.


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## Jarnhamar

I was told at work that for the longest time we couldn‘t use poppies with black centers because of a copy right infringement or something along those lines.

I thought that was silly until i remembered that our griffon helicopters could not mount machineguns (c6) on the side/skids because tampering with the skids at all would void their warrenty.  Canada is all about warranties and contracts to civilian companies


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## Fishbone Jones

This thread seems to come straight out of Monty Python. It‘s just silly. The centre was originally black, then changed to green to denote green fields. It was decided at this years Dominion Conference to change it back to the original black. Don‘t minimize it‘s symbology with this goofy discussion or poll.

Jug:
Your absolutely right! The colour means not a wit.

...at the going down of the sun, and in the morning...we will remember Them, we will remember Them.

Participate on Nov 11th, and remember year round their Ultimate Sacrifice.


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## combat_medic

Reply To In Flanders Fields
-- by John Mitchell

Oh! Sleep in peace where poppies grow;
The torch your falling hands let go
Was caught by us, again held high,
A beacon light in Flanders sky
That dims the stars to those below,
We‘ll prove our faith in you who lie
In Flanders Fields.

Oh! Rest in peace, we quickly go
To you who bravely died, and know
In other fields was heard the cry,
For freedom‘s cause, of you who lie,
So still asleep where poppies grow,
In Flanders Fields.

As in rumbling sound, to and fro,
The lightning flashes, sky aglow,
The mighty hosts appear, and high
Above the din of battle cry,
Scarce heard amidst the guns below
Are fearless hearts who fight the foe,
And guard the place where poppies grow.
Oh, sleep in peace, all you who lie
In Flanders Fields.

And still the poppies gently blow,
Between the crosses, row on row,
The larks, still bravely soaring high,
Are singing now their lullaby
To you who sleep where poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.


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## DannyBoy

Jug said:
			
		

> It could be purple for all I care...as long as we remember.






seconded

*Lest we Forget*


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## Teddy Ruxpin

I heard this on the radio today and had to check into it...  Sure enough:

http://edmsun.canoe.ca/News/Edmonton/2006/11/06/2253084-sun.html



> A group of local peace activists are again asking Edmontonians to wear white poppies this Remembrance Day as a symbol of peace.
> 
> But veterans across the province are seeing red over the idea.
> 
> Patti Hartnagel of the anti-war group Women in Black says the white poppy represents the belief that there are better ways to resolve conflicts than killing strangers.
> 
> "When you see them (white poppies), you need to stop and think about what's happening in our world and the fact that the wars have not solved anything," she told the Sun.
> 
> Hartnagel explained the white poppy was created by the England-based Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 to symbolize their commitment to work for peace.
> 
> It's not a slight on the war dead, she said.
> 
> "We're not saying get rid of the red poppy," she added.
> 
> In fact, some people are wearing their red poppies with a peace sign in the middle.
> 
> Others are wearing both a white and red poppy, said Michael Kalmanovitch, owner of Earth's General Store on Whyte Avenue, which is selling the white poppies for the third straight year.
> 
> "The white poppy says, 'Hey, let's think of other ways to resolve the conflict,' " said the self-described non-violence activist. "It's forward-thinking, whereas a red poppy is looking back."
> 
> _more at link_



Frankly, I'm speechless.


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## ProPatria Mike

Me too.


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## tlg

How, what the? Words cannot explain the thoughts going through my mind. 

My god, my god  :-[


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## KevinB

:  Nothing stupid people do these days surprise me


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## Pea

Blech. - I don't even know where to begin. So that will have to sum it up.


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## armyvern

Unfluckin' Believable. This just disgusts me. 



> whereas a red poppy is looking back


 Looking back? Someone please, go open her eyes NOW!!! Idiot.


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## Korus

> "The white poppy says, 'Hey, let's think of other ways to resolve the conflict,' " said the self-described non-violence activist. "It's forward-thinking, whereas a red poppy is looking back."



I'm all for looking forward and trying to find peaceful resolutions _when possible_, however, isn't the entire point of Rememberance day to _look back_ and remember those who've fallen? Without looking back, you won't know the horrors that we want to avoid repeating.


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## -Marauder-

What's wrong with this, really?  

It takes nothing away from the red poppy.  After all its not like wearing the red is a call to arms, not at all, it is a symbol of remembrance.  I think working towards peace is a noble goal...one worth fighting for, if necessary.  As it is now.

Cheers,

Mike


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## armyvern

Alcibiades said:
			
		

> What's wrong with this, really?
> 
> It takes nothing away from the red poppy.  After all its not like wearing the red is a call to arms, not at all, it is a symbol of remembrance.  I think working towards peace is a noble goal...one worth fighting for, if necessary.  As it is now.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike



Nothing wrong with it. *Our military dead gave them that right*. The least they can do is pick another f'n day, to remember exactly why they can pull off crap like this. Just my personal opinion.


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## warrickdll

Yes! There are 364 really good reasons not to wear a white poppy on November 11th.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

They've picked 11 November to be deliberately inflammatory (realizing that perhaps I've now assisted them in this aim...) and to take away from the real point of Remembrance Day.  This is a _political_ message, pure and simple, brought to you by the same folks who tout "Operation Objection", accuse the CF of deliberately targeting civilians in Afghanistan, and who hold up  OCdt (ret'd) Juarez as an example for others to follow.

One wonders where the money for these poppies actually goes...


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## Fishbone Jones

Alcibiades said:
			
		

> What's wrong with this, really?
> 
> It takes nothing away from the red poppy.  After all its not like wearing the red is a call to arms, not at all, it is a symbol of remembrance.  I think working towards peace is a noble goal...one worth fighting for, if necessary.  As it is now.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Mike


 They can wear it the rest of the year if they want. At this time of year it detracts from the thoughts for the fallen. Wrong place, wrong time.


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## McG

Alcibiades said:
			
		

> What's wrong with this, really?


Are dead soldiers an appropriate prop for a political statement?  Remembrance Day is to remember our dead; people who died doing what their country asked of them.


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## ProPatria Mike

Whats wrong... OMG, I have to go now, I don't want to step on...


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## AJFitzpatrick

"the white poppy was created by the England-based Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 to symbolize their commitment to work for peace. "

That worked well didn't it.

This is just an echo. Can't they just let it alone for one day?


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## armyvern

ProPatria Mike said:
			
		

> White Poppies...



Ohhh but you edited your post...see your original in my quote.

Needless, November 11th is Remembrance Day. A day to honour and remember our fallen who died fighting for peace. We do this by wearing red poppies, in their honour. Anything less than a red poppy on this day, is simply not on.


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## 043

Man, what a fricking loser!!!!!!!!


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## geo

The poppies colour was of no matter.....
Once our fallen had bled over them, they were red - forevermore......


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## xo31@711ret

To whom it may concern:
We wear a Red Poppy out of tradition to remember the commitment and freedom paid by our fellow-country personnel in uniform, some who have paid the UTIMATE price any human can make.

We in uniform too pray for peace;We wear a Red  Poppy NOT to glorify and romanticize war, but to remember our fallen and the sacrifices made,so we and others may live in freedom in a just democratic society without fear.

_The history of the world is the world's court of justice.                    History is the science of what never happens twice.

                History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  _        *LEST WE FORGET!*


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## Bigmac

This is insulting! I will not wear a white poppy. I will honor the fallen soldiers wearing a red poppy as always! I respect your right to protest war but this is not the answer. Find another political statement.


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## socialhandgrenade

Welllll ,here we go .Those white poppie endorsing hippies need to pull there head out of there ace.First off how do we get peace by shooting rainbows from our stomachs and hearts from our eyes .
  Ill tell you how you get it's from fighting and dieing ,just like our grandfathers did and just like we do,and for that we wear the red poppie to remember that .Friggin hippies gaaahhh .


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## APOLLOVet

Well, if the persons wishing to wear white poppies can do it on Remembrance Day, I would like to bring back another tradition involving white. Do you think that they would take it wrong if I handed out white feathers on every day but November 11th?


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## tlg

I have one red poppy and I've probably donated roughly 20 bucks. I think I gave a cadet 10 bucks in change (I know I saw at least 3 toonies and a couple of loonies in there). Still I will donate more and only wear my one poppy. 

Lest we forget.


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## niner domestic

In a confrontation between an 80 odd year old vet wearing a red poppy and an insipid, whinging hippie wannabe who is stuck on the 60s wearing a white poppy... my money is on the 80 year old vet.  

When are these peaceniks wannabes going to ever realize that OUR veterans ARE the original marchers for PEACE!


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## darmil

> First off how do we get peace by shooting rainbows from our stomachs and hearts from our eyes .


Carebears count down...
ROFL nice dude..Just shows us how weak some Canadians have become.If I come across some of these hippies, they won't like me too much. Trust me I'll leave a nasty scare.


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## George Wallace

I suppose it is just something that the "Drug Induced" would come up with, and knowing old England's history, I would not be surprised.

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/p/popwhi64.html

The word opium is derived from the Greek opos (juice). 
---Description---The plant is an erect, herbaceous annual, varying much in the colourof its flowers, as well as in the shape of the fruit and colour of the seeds. All parts of the plant, but particularly the walls of the capsules, or seed-vessels, contain a system of laticiferous vessels, filled with a white latex. 

The flowers vary in colour from pure white  to reddish purple. In the wild plant, they are pale lilac with a purple spot at the base of each petal. In England, mostly in Lincolnshire, a variety with pale flowers and whitish seeds is cultivated medicinally for the sake of the capsules. Belgium has usually supplied a proportion of the Poppy Heads used in this country, though those used for fomentations are mostly of home growth.


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## Shamrock

My concern is the income the Red Poppies generate for the Legion.  Certainly, I don't think the people who are starting this would buy red poppies, but I bet a few fence sitters or some who just don't know the difference will buy the white poppies.  But I guess that's part of the agenda.


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## warspite

> Hartnagel explained the white poppy was created by the England-based Women's Co-operative Guild in 1933 to symbolize their commitment to work for peace.


Funny I've never heard of them... also really seems to have been efective in bringing peace to the world.


> It's not a slight on the war dead, she said.


Yes it is.


> some people are wearing their red poppies with a peace sign in the middle.


In fact so is this.


> "*The white poppy says, 'Hey, let's think of other ways to resolve the conflict*,' " said the self-described non-violence activist.


Well in my humble opinion the white poppy says something very, very different.


> "*It's forward-thinking, whereas a red poppy is looking back*."


WHAT IS IT ABOUT* REMEMBRANCE* DAY YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU HIPPIE FOOL. THIS ONLY GOES TO SHOW HOW IGNORANT YOU ARE IN BRODCASTING YOUR POLITICAL MESSAGE.


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## MEV

How many of those loosers have had any time in a tour overseas ? Perhaps if they spent their time growing up in the face of trouble they would understand what the redpoppy and rememberence day means to us ... those that have had to wear the uniform and had friends/relatives that have paid the ultimate price.

Perhaps they should also move out of their parents house and realize how the real world works. 

That day and that symbol are ours. Get off of our coat tails.

Freedom of spech you might say ... remember who got you that right !!! Not the politician, not the journalist, not the peacenik ... it was the soldier.


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## Devlin

> The white poppy says, 'Hey, let's think of other ways to resolve the conflict,' " said the self-described non-violence activist. "It's forward-thinking, whereas a red poppy is looking back."



I saw one of these the other day, I didn't know what it meant but didn't get a chance to ask the guy wearing it...good thing....for him.

This really sickens me, honestly can they (the peaceniks) not give us one day out of the year is that too much to ask. Thankless absolutely thankless, the thing that never fails to surprise me is that a lot of these folks after speaking with them have never treaded foot outside the comforts of Canada. My point is they have no perspective other than their own view of things, I have been fortunate to travel overseas and speak with people (most specifically in the UK) that have a greater sense of history than these people. 

Perhaps if they would show us some respect we would be more inclined to show respect back to them...I won't have any for them until....those white poppies come off and attitudes and mindsets start changing.


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## Jacqueline

Can you say _cheese_?
The red poppy grew in Flanders field.
The white poppy has nothing to do with the history.


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## Spr.Earl

MCG said:
			
		

> Are dead soldiers an appropriate prop for a political statement?  Remembrance Day is to remember our dead; people who died doing what their country asked of them.



MCG,also those who have survived.


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## cplcaldwell

The Original Post on this Thread said:
			
		

> "The white poppy says, 'Hey, let's think of other ways to resolve the conflict,' " said the self-described non-violence activist. "It's forward-thinking, whereas a red poppy is looking back."



'Looking back' might be appropriate, given our current enemy is firmly rooted in the twelfth century. Perhaps Michael Kalmanovitch, owner of Earth's General Store on Whyte Avenue, could escort Taliban Jack to the summit with Mullah Omar in Quetta or Peshawar and then a consensus could be reached on the appropriate colour ....

Or perhaps some people's talk is cheap...


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## a_majoor

People, they do not wish to be confrontational, and neither should we.

Politiely pin a Red Poppy on their lapel and tell them that is to remind them WHY they can wear a white poppy if they choose.


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## APOLLOVet

While this is a major disappointment that people actually thought that this was a good idea, I don't think that there is much that we can do about it. It has been my experience that the people who characterize themselves as "peacemakers/peacelovers/peaceniks (insert your own suffix) are unwilling or congenitally unable to see that there might be other perspectives. For the most part, they truly believe that they are "above" violence, and that all of us who live in the real world are either too stupid/evil/blinkered etc to see that " violence never solved anything" (go ask a Carthaginian if that's true).

While those of us who respect the fact that Thomas Jefferson had it right ("The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants") are rightfully enraged by this shoddy treatment of those who have actually sacrificed for something that is larger than themselves, we must also be aware of the fact that we will never convince the white poppy people of what we believe in. All they can see is the application of violence; they cannot see that the violence that we apply is to a good end.

So, we can all condemn the actions of these people, we will never convince them of the horrendous disrespect that they are showing. Remember, these are the same type of people who have actually succeeded in creating memorials to Vietnam era deserters. If deserting your country in its time of need is heroic (rather than accepting the fact that your country can demand from you, and accepting the consequences of refusing those demands), then I guess it is time for all of us to give up. We will have completely lost the moral fiber necessary to defend our way of life, and we might as well wait for the next conqueror to tell us what to think next.


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## Kat Stevens

Unfortunately, the sheep continue to graze, blissfully unaware that the only reason the wolves in the tall grass don't eat them, is because generations of sheepdogs have laid their lives down to prevent it.


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## 211RadOp

I haven't seen any in Kingston yet, and probably won't, but I will take a_majoor's advice and keep a few extra in the car in case I see one of these freaks.


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## Brat56

Some things are just meant to be: The Poppy is meant to be RED! We have already had to change far to much to suit others. This can't be changed also.


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## Teddy Ruxpin

The story's gone international:

From Reuters - http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1652372006 Fair dealings, etc...



> Red vs white: battle of poppies erupts in Canada
> 
> CALGARY, Alberta (Reuters) - Canada's war veterans are girding for a new battle, this time against peace activists they say have hijacked their long-standing floral symbol.
> 
> A store in Edmonton, Alberta, is distributing white poppy replicas that the Royal Canadian Legion said is a "disturbing" and "illegal" infringement of the red poppies worn on lapels since just after World War One to commemorate those killed in battle.
> 
> A Legion official said that Remembrance Day on November 11 is the only time of year they ask citizens to wear the poppies to pay tribute to the 117,000 military personnel who have died in conflict.
> 
> "It's something symbolic, which encroaches on a registered trademark, for one thing," Legion spokesman Rod Stewart said of the "white poppies for peace."
> 
> "But it puts a political slant on the meaning of Remembrance Day and that's unacceptable in our eyes."
> 
> White poppy distributor Michael Kalmanovitch, owner of Earth's General Store, said the version he's distributing was first produced in Britain in the 1930s to symbolize hope that humanity would move beyond armed conflict to solve disputes.
> 
> Kalmanovitch said he ordered 200 white poppies from the activist Peace Pledge Union in London. It his his third year of distributing them.
> 
> Legion officials have told him that poppies of any colour are their registered trademark and the alternative ones are illegal.
> 
> But Kalmanovitch said he has no intention to stop distributing the white symbols. He said he wears both versions, and does not consider the white ones to be discourteous to the Legion.
> 
> "We're not saying 'or', we're saying 'and'," Kalmanovitch said. "I do respect those people who went off and got hurt or killed in those wars ... but I hope we live in a society where everything can withstand criticism or examination."
> 
> The tradition of wearing commemorative red poppies in Canada, Britain and other counties comes from the World War One poem "In Flanders Fields", a tribute to the fallen written by Canadian Lt-Col John McCrae, which begins: "In Flanders fields the poppies blow, Between the crosses row on row..."


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## Teflon

Damn Fashion Confused People!,...  ???

Don't they know it's just wrong to wear white after Labour day!!!! :threat:


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## Prophet

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the sheep continue to graze, blissfully unaware that the only reason the wolves in the tall grass don't eat them, is because generations of sheepdogs have laid their lives down to prevent it.



+1  That sums it up


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## Dissident

People who are not prepared to resist and are eager to submit, hate others who do not want to submit and are prepared to fight. 
They hate them because they are afraid that the latter will endanger their lives as well. In their view everyone must submit. 

Paul Belien


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## North Star

Ah white..the colour of surrender. Glad to see values are now held so high they're above the practicality of struggle to implement them. 

Remember, war didn't solve anything. Except the holocaust. Oh, and the genocide in Kosowo. Oh, and slavery (in the US and the threat of war in the Ottoman Empire). Wait, it it deprived A-Q of a base from which to launch murderous attacks on civilians (who are technically protected by Gevena Convention IV, which they don't recognize). Imperialism (for lefties, colonial wars of liberation are legit), and some other stuff. 

And "pacificism"? What did that solve? The Sudan/Darfur talks are going just ducky, and boy didn't Hitler scale down his expectations after Munich? Ghandi did succeed without violence, but only because the British were half-hearted anyway. Hmm. Can't really think of much else.


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## niner domestic

I wonder if these people realize that in nature, there is no such thing as a pure white flower - the poppy no matter what colour will always have red in it.  (even if it's just a thin red line - it's still there)


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## poko

Bunch of dope smoking hippie
I just want to go there buy them all and trow them in the garbage.
It remembrance day and not peace day. People would do anything to have publicity


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## HItorMiss

The best tactic I have found has been telling the truth, "NO person on earth wants peace more then a soldier, because it's the soldiers who fight the wars not those whose oppose them" 

Others will always find a a way to mock or corrupt traditions they can't fathom. Forget the white poppies let them mock us because in the end our blood has bought them that right and others will know that and feel shamed for those who think traditions of honor can be changed to meet their agenda.

Je me souviens mais amis, and I needn't trouble myself with those who don't bother to think past themselves.


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## HItorMiss

poko said:
			
		

> It remembrance day and not peace day.



Wrong it is very much a day of peace, A day when those who fight think how much better the world would have been had our friends not died in the service and persuit of peace.


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## poko

the internation peace day is September 21 and not november 11
http://www.internationaldayofpeace.org/


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## probum non poenitet

I throw this out as food for thought - 

It's not just hippies who feel this way. I know there are some veterans and others who avoid Remembrance Day because they see it as pro-military, or pro-war. Unpopular, but there it is.

I personally don't feel that way, but Farley Mowat does, and he's definitely earned his right to say his piece:

http://www.dominion.ca/Downloads/sor_FarleyMowat.pdf

From the article:

_Today Mowat's views on remembrance are uncompromising and controversial: he eschews what
he calls the glorification of war in many Remembrance Day events and military anniversaries. He
says the media have elevated war into an act of heroism and prestige.
He also says he won't feel neglected if nobody remembers his own personal wartime service. "I
escaped alive with my skin, and that's reward enough."
What matters is to remember war, he says, "as the abomination that it is."_

For those who don't know, Mowat was an infantry officer who fought up the boot of Italy.

It's a free country. People have a right to wear what they want - we have a right to disagree with what they say.

But if, as some posters have suggested, wearing a red poppy means you are willing to join and fight, and feel pacifism is ineffective, then it is understandable that 'hippies' may draw the same conclusion about Remembrance Day and its symbols -- that it has become a type of pro-military political statement. 

For me, Remembrance day is beyond politics - it is for those who have died, or as Remarque said in _All Quiet on the Western Front_, for "a generation of men who, even though they may have escaped its shells, were destroyed by the war..."
But I will admit, every November 11, I am reminded strongly of the duties and expectations of military service. It is not surprising that others are as well - and if they don't like the military ... well ... out come the white poppies ...

I disagree with their opinions, they irritate me,  I acknowledge their right to dissent ... and believe that the military provided them with that right ... oddly enough ...


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## Edward Campbell

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> ...
> From the article:
> 
> _Today Mowat's views on remembrance are uncompromising and controversial: he eschews what he calls the glorification of war in many Remembrance Day events and military anniversaries. He says the media have elevated war into an act of heroism and prestige.
> 
> He also says he won't feel neglected if nobody remembers his own personal wartime service. "I escaped alive with my skin, and that's reward enough."
> 
> What matters is to remember war, he says, "as the abomination that it is."_
> 
> For those who don't know, Mowat was an infantry officer who fought up the boot of Italy.
> 
> It's a free country. People have a right to wear what they want - we have a right to disagree with what they say.
> ...



Indeed.  I disagree with Mowat because he is intellectually dishonest.

It Farley Mowat was as capable at reasoning as he is at storytelling then he would understand that Remembrance Day is not about war, glorious, abominable or whatever else – it is about sacrifice, specifically the supreme sacrifice.

Remembrance Day has one, sole focus: those who were killed in war.  It is not about veterans – they started it so that they could pay homage to their fallen comrades, *not* so that they could enjoy the applause of _*living*_ grateful fellow citizens.  Nor is Remembrance Day about bereaved mothers, widows and children – we acknowledge that their wounds may still be raw, after years, months or even just a few weeks; we acknowledge that their pain is, perhaps, deeper than most of us can understand.  Remembrance Day is, especially, not about telling children about the ‘horrors of war’ – real as they are.  Remembrance Day is about contemplating sacrifice: sacrifice painfully made, bravely made, freely made.

Mowat doesn’t acknowledge that because he is a fool.  He may have been a brave fool, he is certainly entitled to be a fool.  He helped earn the *right* for all of us to disagree with things we misunderstand – we are Canadians, after all.


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## George Wallace

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> The best tactic I have found has been telling the truth, "NO person on earth wants peace more then a soldier, because it's the soldiers who fight the wars not those whose oppose them"
> 
> Others will always find a a way to mock or corrupt traditions they can't fathom. Forget the white poppies let them mock us because in the end our blood has bought them that right and others will know that and feel shamed for those who think traditions of honor can be changed to meet their agenda.
> 
> Je me souviens mais amis, and I needn't trouble myself with those who don't bother to think past themselves.



That just brought to my mind the difference between the two.  We are proud to Serve and wear the Red Poppy to remember those who have gone before us and those who are yet to come, who may have shed their blood to maintain Peace.  As HoM states, no one wants Peace more than the soldiers who may have the unsavory task of fighting a war to maintain the Peace.

Those who want to wear a white poppy and protest for Peace, are wearing the right colour.  They are cowards, who hide behind the skirts of those who live in the safe shadows of those who have the courage to put thier lives on the line to keep them safe.  They are only children.  White is a good colour for them.  It means that they have never had to get their hands dirty in the Labour to earn Peace.  They want everything for free, but have not the courage to actually step forward to work for it.


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## armyvern

George,

+10.


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## Teflon

In todays Edmonton Journal:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=b6082418-4abd-4d4d-b11d-94472f6d8425

Nip white poppies in the bud, legion says
Antiwar symbol 'illegal, disturbing'
Bill Mah, The Edmonton Journal
Published: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
EDMONTON - Call it the war of the poppies.

On one side, antiwar activists offer white poppies to symbolize a desire for peace.

On the other side, a veterans group says white poppies infringe on a registered symbol -- the red poppies sold by the Royal Canadian Legion in advance of Remembrance Day to honour Canada's war dead. The red poppy has been used in Canada since 1921.


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Patti Hartnagel, a member of Edmonton Women In Black, an anti-war group that is selling white poppies, says the red and white symbols don't have to be in conflict with each other, but instead could be worn together.
John Lucas, The Journal

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Font: ****"It's taking a symbol of sacrifice and using it to represent a political position," said Rod Stewart, a vice-president of the legion's Alberta-Northwest Territories Command.

"November 11th is Remembrance Day. It is the one day set aside where we show our respect to the war dead. We don't get judgmental about why they died or where they died or for whom they died."

Stewart said the white poppies "piggyback" an inappropriate political message onto Remembrance Day. He said a more appropriate day might be Sept. 21, the International Day of Peace, and suggested the groups sell olive branches instead of poppies.

The legion issued a statement condemning the white poppy campaign Tuesday. "This practice is not only disturbing, but illegal," said the press release.

The poppy, in any form other than a real poppy, is a registered symbol of the legion and can't be used without permission, Stewart said.

He said the legion will ask the groups selling white poppies to stop. Legal action has been used in the past to enforce trademark infringement, he said.

White poppies -- with the word "peace" in the centre -- are being sold by Edmonton Women in Black, an anti-war group, and Earth's General Store, a retailer known for its environmental and social justice stances.

Patti Hartnagel, a member of Women In Black, was taken aback when told of the legion's statement.

"They are suggesting ... we are suggesting that these white poppies are an alternative to the traditional red poppy, and that's not we're saying," she said.

The two symbols can be worn together, Hartnagel said.

"How can you not respect the sacrifice of the veterans? But also, add a proactive element to that."

She said her group takes donations in exchange for the poppies to make contributions to schools in Afghanistan and to other charities abroad.

The white poppy was created by the Women's Co-operative Guild in England in 1933.

"The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War -- a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers, sons and lovers," says a website run by an anti-war group, Peace Pledge Union.

Michael Kalmanovitch, owner of the Earth's General Store, said he began importing the white poppies from Peace Pledge Union three years ago.

But on Tuesday he received a phone call from the legion's Dominion Command, its national office, telling him the white poppies aren't allowed to be sold in Canada and that Peace Pledge Union was told that last year.

"Then they asked if we're going to continue to sell these things. I said 'Yes, we are until such time as we get an official notice that we are in contravention of trademark laws or whatever.' "

Of an initial order of 200, he had about 30 or 40 left on Tuesday afternoon.

Kalmanovitch said even some veterans have purchased white poppies at the store.

bmah@thejournal.canwest.com

SOUNDING BOARD

Do you agree the Royal Canadian Legion should be the only group allowed to sell poppies? E-mail city@thejournal.canwest.

com. Please put "poppies" in the subject line. We'll publish selected responses.




© The Edmonton Journal 2006


----------



## Signalman150

My answer to the Edmonton Journal's 'Sounding Board' question, sent moments ago.

*****


Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:40 AM
To: city@thejournal.canwest.com
Subject: Poppies


I took some time to familiarize myself with the White Poppy, which originated in Britain. It comes from a tradition almost as old as the Red Poppy emblem (1921 for the latter, 1933 for the former). From the beginning the White Poppy has been strictly a symbol of political activism. The Women's Cooperative Guild--which first issued them--was dedicated to social and economic reform in Britain. Eventually their campaign was taken over by the Peace Pledge Union, and the White Poppy became a symbol of the pacifist movement.

In contrast, the Red Poppy has been a sign of Remembrance, and a means to raise funds to assist veterans, ever since it was first issued. Neither of these pursuits is political in nature.  One honours those who have sacrificed their lives in pursuit of freedom, the other supports those who have served their country in time of need. 

The PPU website makes it clear that money raised from the sale of White Poppies is not used for relief of the suffering or needy.  Rather it is used to finance their ongoing political activities.  Part of their agenda includes posting articles on their website calling into question the usefulness of Remembrance Day (referring to it as "a sentimental get together"), and denigrating the efforts of the Royal British Legion in providing relief to veterans. 

Remembrance Day is the one day of the year set aside to honour our war dead and our veterans.  The PPU have chosen instead to usurp November 11th in order to raise funds in support of their political agenda, and have perverted a powerful symbol of Remembrance to do so. 

I have no quarrel with their cause, but I find their methods despicable. In response to the Edmonton Journal's question ""Do you agree the Royal Canadian Legion should be the only group allowed to sell poppies?", my answer is an emphatic 'Yes'!

*****

FWIW.


----------



## McG

Peace is a noble cause.  However, as a cause, it should not displace our memorial of the fallen.



			
				poko said:
			
		

> Bunch of dope smoking hippie
> I just want to go there buy them all and trow them in the garbage.
> It remembrance day and not peace day. People would do anything to have publicity


While this is not the only generalization on who might wear a white poppy, here is the generic tone & content reminder on ad hominem: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html



			
				Reuters said:
			
		

> But Kalmanovitch said he has no intention to stop distributing the white symbols. He said he wears both versions


Then I hope he does not give out a single one of his poppies without also encouraging the receiver to also get the red poppy.



			
				Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> MCG, also those who have survived.


The day is to remember the fallen.  Let’s thank the survivors & hope for peace through the rest of the year.


----------



## HItorMiss

poko said:
			
		

> the internation peace day is September 21 and not November 11
> http://www.internationaldayofpeace.org/



Right you are, September 21st is indeed the international day of peace, you'll notice I didn't say it was "THE" day of peace simply "A" day of peace. As I stated a day of peace in the minds of many who wish they hadn't lost friends/family etc etc to that which we should abhor most WAR. I know I'm not a fan of war and again this year will likely cry shameless tears at thoughts of my friends who died doing what was needed.

On that note any further pissing contest like comments should be done in PM with me as I will not detract from the significance of this thread further.


----------



## Journeyman

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> For those who don't know, *Mowat was an infantry officer who fought up the boot of Italy*.


Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat _was_ an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat.


----------



## HItorMiss

You would know...... ;D


----------



## Kat Stevens

Oh, SNAP!  No you di'int!


----------



## HItorMiss

Yah I went there....I said that  ;D


----------



## geo

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat _was_ an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat.


Read "the Regiment" a long, long time ago.
If memory serves me right, Farley Mowat wound up the war as an Int officer but was a platoon officer before that.

Methinks there were more than paper cuts to his CV


----------



## midget-boyd91

White poppies should not be worn.. rememberance day is a day to remember our veterans not a day for people to state their political opinions.


----------



## midget-boyd91

just changing something from my above post, but..
stating political opinions is fine, but throwing it out where it can offend people (ie. our veterans) is not right.


----------



## Redeye

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Just a minor correction...Farley Mowat _was_ an infantry officer in the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, but he served as their Intelligence Officer. Paper cuts were a great threat.



Actually, he started as a platoon commander in A Coy, he didn't become the IO until later on.  It might have been just before Assoro when Bat Cocklin was killed, but I'm not sure, I'll have to pull my trusty copy of The Regiment  out to see.


----------



## geo

by the time he became the Int O, Farley Mowat was somewhat dissilusioned with the war & appears to have been somewhat reckless in exercising his duties in Holland.


----------



## Freddy Chef

Protest = _“All talk, no action. All attitude, no guts.”_

George Wallace was spot on, referring to the white-poppy-peace-protestors as whining infants that want their folks to hand them everything on a silver platter. Their ‘efforts’ amount to nothing but a few seconds of media attention, _‘A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and colour, signifying nothing.’_

_‘To be or not to be…whether tis nobler…to suffer outrageous fortune…or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them.’_

_“Is it better to curse the darkness, or to light the candle?”_

Veterans and serving members of the military were/are willing to fight for what’s right and sacrifice their lives in the process. The red poppy is to honour those that made the ultimate sacrifice. Any such mockery of the red poppy is an insult.

Sacrifice = _“Actions speak louder than words.”_


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

I think that the white poppies are a noble idea.  I like the idea of humanity moving beyond its current obsession with violence and destruction towards a more civilized planet.

Imagine a world where we could sit down with the Americans and talk about how it makes us feel bad when they try to annex large areas of our land and that would get them to stop. (And saves us from building military bases in the high north and getting those extra ships to protect our territory) 

Imagine a world where no country would ever think of using force to improve their standard of living at the expense of other nations/peoples. No more border skirmishes for control over water, no more ethnic cleansings and no country would go to war for control over territory that was theirs.  It would have to be a world without oppression, without tyrants, without hatred or violence. It would have to be a world with out greed or hunger where everyone had not just the basic life needs met but felt peace and security and the ability to better themselves and their community peacefully.

      If wearing a white poppy would express my desire for such a world I would wear one. But it doesn’t, I feel it says something else.

I was a hard and fast NDPer, until they got obsessed with the war in Iraq.  People that I’ve known for years, people that I’ve protested with have set themselves on the task of getting us out of Iraq (they say Iraq, I’m sure they mean Afghanistan I think they can’t tell the difference) and they will not stop until every single Canadian soldier is home safely. The grass roots of the left, NDP and miscellaneous organizations have started a fairly hurtful campaign in their noble quest to save us from an 'unnecessary war'.

They have publicly called us terrorists, questioned our true intentions for being in Afghanistan, implied we are mindless indiscriminant killers and other slanderous things. In private, I have heard much worse.

Right now, I see this as another “we are fighting a wrong war and are soldiers are bad guys” action on the part of the left; at least that is how I’d feel if I saw someone wearing one. Maybe I’m being to sensitive and that the white poppies are only meant to represent a desire for peace – but having been called a mindless blood thirsty terrorist -  I’ll just have to accept that I’m a little touchy when it comes to the political left commenting further on the military.


----------



## Journeyman

Redeye said:
			
		

> Actually, he started as a platoon commander in A Coy, he didn't become the IO until later on


Geo, Redeye.....ack. (since we're building a hijack here  ;D ) 
Yes, Mowat _did_ see combat commanding a rifle platoon. During the lion's share of the HastyP's slogging up the boot, however, he was in Bn HQ. Not demeaning his record, just ensuring historical accuracy.


----------



## KSBCRUCIAL

poko said:
			
		

> Bunch of dope smoking hippie
> I just want to go there buy them all and trow them in the garbage.
> It remembrance day and not peace day. People would do anything to have publicity



Okay.
Just to clear things up. Calling people who are anti-war, or protestors, or a white poppy wearer a hippie, is as good an argument as them calling YOU a conservative, redneck, trigger happy, gun freak. You're going to have to remember that to fight thier logic, you're going to have to use more than the same insulting strategies they are using. Generalizations and steriotyping won't get your point across, and using such typical "conservative right" language puts you on the same level as them.

Second, I agree, that the white poppies are a total insult to the fallen to whom we are paying respects on nov 11th. I believe that too many people are using rememberance day as a way to showcase political and social views, and protest and push thier own social agendas. My whole life, rememberance day has been a really important day for my whole family. And I am always there to remember the comrades my dad has lost, and that indeed I'm sure many of you have lost in service. I'm thankful for the fact that my father has instilled in me pride, and knowledge, for what the fallen have done for us. I think however, we also, need to feel sorry for and educate, those who are selfish, and uneducated enough, to use rememberance day as a platform for protest. Think about it, no person, who knows the meaning and importance of rememberance day in their right mind would protest it. So maybe, the next time someone makes a negative comment about rememberance day or wears a white poppie, you should EDUCATE them, on why this day is so important. If they're so convinced that we think this day is about glorifying war, then maybe, be peacful to them and show them otherwise, instead of flinging insults such as "liberal hippie douche" at them. I'm just as outraged as all of you are about this. But I'm not going to let my anger about the whole situation get the best of me.

Perhaps invite some of those opposing rememberance day to one of the local ceremonies, or relate a personal story of yours about war to them, and make a personal connection, maybe making them realize that they as well, need to acknowledge the importance of this day. Be kind about this, as rememberance day, in my opinion, is most certainly not about fighting, and encourage people to change thier minds. By being agressive as I quoted above...you are only giving them FUEL for the fire, you are only giving them reason to attack you.


----------



## niner domestic

I'm surprized that the organizers of these Peace movements have failed to grasp (yet again) who it is that they should be directing their campaigns against.  As with the early 60s and the protest against the Vietnam War, the organizers of today's Peace rallies and marches are focusing on the individual military member as the reason for the world's discord and violence.  It didn't work in the 60s and I am assuming it is not going to present a compelling argument today. Quite simply, these present day protesters are forgetting that it is the elected politicians that make the final decision to escalate any situation into an armed conflict.  As several people have commented upon, no one wants peace more than a man or woman who has waded knee deep in the blood of their comrades and allies.  

I ask these protesters now, where were they when diplomacy was the tool in which we sought to maintain peace? Where were their voices and white poppies then? In all of the crisis and conflicts that our world has faced, where were their white poppies before a single shot/bombing/or tank rolled across a boundary after the "peace" talks failed?  

Where were they in their white poppy, critical mass at the voting polls to oust the so called war-mongering politicians? I feel rather than focusing on the political and political will, which is always a much more ardent task to effect change, these Peace movement protesters have sought to take an easier road to stake their claim for peace and that is to attack the armed forces - the very people that are in direct juxtaposition of gaining and maintaining desired peace.  

I suspect that in the months that follow Remembrance Day, we will hear little of these white poppies as they will have lost their audiences.  Sadly, even as much as Canadians are proud of their vets and fallen, they too are only willing to devote a few days a year to saying so.  As the current government has stated, November 11th, is THE day of mourning the fallen, even they will resort to business as usual come Monday when the flags no longer fly at half mast.  The peace protesters will have a hard time competing for attention to their cause with the mundane of life we Canadians enjoy thanks to the efforts and sacrifices of those who gave us peace in the first place.


----------



## GAP

*Legion takes on activists in War of the Poppies*
Veterans object to peace group selling white version of famous red emblem 
KATHERINE HARDING AND DAWN WALTON  From Thursday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061109.wpoppies09/BNStory/National/?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp

EDMONTON AND CALGARY — The Royal Canadian Legion is threatening to bring out its big guns — the lawyers — in a war with peace activists over poppies.

Veterans say the activists are unlawfully selling white poppies in a fundraising drive that violates trademark rights to the scarlet poppy, which they say belongs to the Legion.

Already, an Edmonton store owned by Michael Kalmanovitch that has been selling the so-called “poppies for peace” has been shipped proof by the Legion's intellectual property lawyer that the veterans association owns the image, regardless of the flower's colour, and has been asked to stop.

“If he [Kalmanovitch] doesn't, then we will proceed with further legal action,” explained Steven Clark, the Ottawa-based remembrance co-ordinator who oversees the poppy trademark for the Legion.

“It is something that we have to make sure is safeguarded, is protected and we will take the necessary steps to make sure that it is.”

The red poppy has been Canada's symbol of remembrance since 1921 and stems from Lieutenant-Colonel John McCrae's famous poem, In Flanders Fields, which speaks to the fear that the war dead will be forgotten. Canadians, and others in countries around the world, wear poppies over their hearts leading up to Remembrance Day on Nov. 11 as a pledge that the deaths of military personnel, in Canada's case 117,000 of them, have not been in vain.
More on link


----------



## Edward Campbell

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I think that the white poppies are a noble idea.  I like the idea of humanity moving beyond its current obsession with violence and destruction towards a more civilized planet.
> ...
> Imagine a world ... No more border skirmishes for control over water, no more ethnic cleansings ...  a world without oppression, without tyrants, without hatred or violence. It would have to might even be a world with out greed or hunger ...
> 
> If wearing a white poppy would express my desire for such a world I would wear one. But it doesn’t, I feel it says something else ...



I agree, broadly, with Zell_Dietrich.  I suspect most soldiers do.

I think the good ladies behind this movement are quite _media-savvy_.  That's why they _coordinate_ their campaign with Remembrance Day rather than _Peace Day_.  Remembrance Day gets a whole hockey-sock full of media attention - it's now _Remembrance Week_.  World Peace Day (or whatever it's called - proof of my point) passed unnoticed - had I seen a lady wearing a white poppy on some September (?) day it would have escaped my notice; if I see one on 11 November it will create a reaction.  That's what they're after.  We and the media and the Legion just gave them their wish.

Well done, ladies; you accomlished your aim; you have our attention.


----------



## dglad

GAP said:
			
		

> The red poppy has been Canada's symbol of remembrance since 1921 and stems from Lieutenant-Colonel John McCrae's famous poem, In Flanders Fields, which speaks to the fear that the war dead will be forgotten. Canadians, and others in countries around the world, wear poppies over their hearts leading up to Remembrance Day on Nov. 11 as a pledge that the deaths of military personnel, in Canada's case 117,000 of them, have not been in vain.



Here's an interesting fact related to the above:

_Wearing a poppy on Remembrance Day to honour those who fought and died in the wartime service of Canada was first proposed in the British Commonwealth in 1921 in Port Arthur, Ontario (now part of Thunder Bay, Ontario) by Madame Anne Guerin, of France.  She subsequently travelled throughout Canada and Great Britain, and convinced both the recently formed British Legion and the Canadian Great War Veterans Association (a predecessor of the Canadian Legion) to adopt the poppy as their symbol of remembrance._
Kind of a neat connection to my hometown.    

As for white poppies...well, to those who conceived it, it's rather like masturbating in the middle of a crowded bus station.  It may give you some immediate satisfaction, but you'll probably end up paying for it in the long-term.


----------



## niner domestic

There an even bigger bun fight going on in Britain over the white poppy.  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6202625,00.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

dglad - :rofl:  
Thank you for breaking up a stressful day for me with your eloquent summary of the group's "grasp" of the issue (so to speak)....


----------



## MP101

What is this with the people wearing white poppies? Do they have any respect for veterans and soldiers here in Canada and overseas. 

I just finished watching a show debating on the white poppies, and for some reason, some believe in wearing them. Don't they know that the red poppy is a symbol of military veterans? 

Also, the white poppy means to end all wars. So if we all lived by this, the Nazis most likely would have taken over the world and people of the Jewish faith may of not existed up to now.

What is your opinion........


----------



## geo

MP..... the red poppy is to remember everyone that has lost his life in combat.
Remember those civilians who died in the London blitz?
The firebombing of Hamburg & Dresden?
The siege of Stalingrad & Leningrad?

War is not limited to the civilians by any stretch of the imagination.

We remember them all & say "never again"!


The white poppy is meant to look forward to the future, one without war............ 
trouble is, you have to start with the Red, to get to the White.......... IMHO!


----------



## probum non poenitet

Here is a story from the Globe and Mail - about one woman's exprience of Remembrance Day through three generations.

It's not about white poppy/red poppy, but I found it worth reading:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/factsandarguments


----------



## MP101

Never mind my other reply because i started my own topic about this and the quote got moved from my page to this forum. The first thing is that i did not know about this page and made my own topic about the white poppies, so disregard my first comment. Thanks


----------



## Cliff

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> I heard this on the radio today and had to check into it...  Sure enough:
> 
> http://edmsun.canoe.ca/News/Edmonton/2006/11/06/2253084-sun.html
> 
> Frankly, I'm speechless.



 It doesn't surprise me. Next they'll be asking for a white maple leaf.


----------



## Cliff

GAP said:
			
		

> Already, an Edmonton store owned by Michael Kalmanovitch that has been selling the so-called “poppies for peace” has been shipped proof by the Legion's intellectual property lawyer that the veterans association owns the image, regardless of the flower's colour, and has been asked to stop.



What goes around comes around and shame on Kalmanovitch for his disrespect to all those who made the ultimate sacrifice.


----------



## Thompson_JM

after the cold rememberance day ceremony here in wainwright KAF to read something like this is unreal......  all i have to say is throat punches to them.....

some of these people take there freedom a little too much for granted.....

sheesh....


----------



## 3rd Horseman

I always thought white is a symbol of cowardice. I guess its appropriate in a weird way. I have not seen one yet hopfully they respect the copy right of the Legion and stop this activity.


----------



## Jacqueline

I always thought white to be a coward color also. I have to be nice though, or else the dove of peace might s*** on me.


----------



## geo

White has been associated with "surrendering"
Yellow has been associated with "cowardly"......

Though there was the old story about the four white feathers.... Kipling? Mason?


the white feather has been partially embraced by pacifist organisations as a sign of harmlessness. During the First World War the pacifist Fenner Brockway received so many white feathers he was known to comment that he now had enough feathers to make a fan.

Some time after the war, pacifists found an alternative interpretation of the white feather as a symbol of peace. The story being that in 1775 Quakers in a Friends meeting house in Easton, New York were faced by a tribe of Indians on the war path. Rather than flee, the Quakers fell silent and waited. The Indian chief came into the meeting house and finding no weapons he declared the Quakers as friends. On leaving he took a white feather from his quiver and attached it to the door as a sign to leave the building unharmed.

The story may not be true, but in 1937 the Peace Pledge Union sold 500 white feather badges as symbols of peace.

In 1985, progressive rock band Marillion released a concept album entitled Misplaced Childhood, whose final track, White Feather, was an explicit reference to pacifist idealism.

Surprisingly the white feather doesn't appear to be associated with the dove of peace.


----------



## 3rd Horseman

geo said:
			
		

> White has been associated with "surrendering"
> Yellow has been associated with "cowardly"......
> 
> 
> 
> I was also brought up that yellow was coward from the western movies..."yellow belly"..."streak of Yellow down his back" and stuff like that But then I heard a story about the white feather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though there was the old story about the four white feathers.... Kipling? Mason?
Click to expand...


The white feather story as I heard it,  was about Brit ladies that would pin a white feather on able bodied men on the street as a sign they were cowards for not serving. This  as I understand it, caused the wounded soldiers recovering and now exempt from further service were issued with wounded in action badges that they wore. Other men who were judged medically unfit or vital to the war effort received other badges to were. Is their any truth to this story or is it an urban legend.

edit typo


----------



## navymich

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> The white feather story as I heard it,  was about Brit ladies that would pin a white feather on able bodied men on the street as a sign they were cowards for not serving. This  as I understand it, caused the wounded soldiers recovering and now exempt from further service were issued with wounded in action badges that they wore. Other men who were judged medically unfit or vital to the war effort received other badges to were. Is their any truth to this story or is it an urban legend.




http://www.ppu.org.uk/poppy/new/tx_feather.html


> The White Poppy is sometimes linked with the white feather, which chauvinist women bestowed on 'slackers' in the First World War. The notion of a white feather representing cowardice goes back to the 18th century, arising from the belief that a white feather in the tail of a game bird denoted poor quality. To 'show the white feather' was therefore to be 'unmanly'.




http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWfeather.htm


> In August 1914, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather. With the support of leading writers such as Mary Ward and Emma Orczy, the organisation encouraged women to give out white feathers to young men who had not joined the British Army.


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

geo said:
			
		

> White has been associated with "surrendering"
> Yellow has been associated with "cowardly"......



Colours have different meanings at different times,  yellow doesn't only mean cowardice it can mean other things for example

Yellow ribbons:
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/ribbons/ribbons.html

A brief overview
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0769383.html
      - "In India, red is the symbol for a soldier"

And I hear the legion has started the formal proceedings to start civil action.  They sent a letter saying that there is a violation of copywrite infringement.  If the shop doesn't stop then further steps can be taken.  (God I love civil law - all logic goes out the window)


----------



## Zell_Dietrich

Oh I just found this

http://www.troopsribbon.com  Wheee new spins on symbols


----------



## FastEddy

geo said:
			
		

> The poppies colour was of no matter.....
> Once our fallen had bled over them, they were red - forevermore......




I think that really sums it up.

Cheers.


----------



## Stoker

This facebook page was brought to my attention called the "White Poppy for Peace". This is some of the "stuff" that is being said.

I live in Canada. 

My country's armed forces have never defended "freedom". We just install dictators in foreign countries at the behest of the American and British governments. All of our soldiers who go overseas volunteer to do so. I see no reason to "honour" their "sacrifice," they're a mixture of naive nationalists and those who simply have no value for the lives of others. They then return home with a inflated sense of self-worth, having heroically brought freedom and democracy to the people of Canada by installing heroin traffickers as authoritarian puppets and killed thousands while doing so. 

That they complain over lost revenues for their clubs (in which they celebrate the wondrous accomplishments of the Ku Klux Klan, as we recently found out) is, to me, simply a further sign of their massive egos. As such I don't regard it as valid whatsoever.

On the ever-obsessed-over topic of the world wars, let's not forget that they were essentially one conflict, with a short hiatus during which all parties involved rearmed and further militarized their populations. 

World war two could never have happened if not for the crushing sanctions in the treaty of Versailles. The British, Canadian, French, and American governments are as much at fault as the Nazis themselves, despite what we'd like to think. And before you pull out the holocaust excuse, how were Jewish refugees treated by the allied nations? If they had any interest in peace, why did they assist in the creation of Israel?

Both world wars were the inevitable result of nationalism and militarism running rampant among those with enough money to do serious damage. The best way to keep it from happening again is to stop both nationalism and militarism on a worldwide scale, and if that means we make a few narcissists angry, so be it. Mutually Assured Destruction is all that comes of the world's (universally) bloated military spending. If our governments acted like civilized humans towards the rest of the world we would have nothing to fear.  


I know this is a small segment that spouts this garbage, but the fact that it comes from young people and they really believe this stuff leaves me to think what's in store for our country in 20 or 30 years.


----------



## jeffb

Stoker said:
			
		

> I know this is a small segment that spouts this garbage, but the fact that it comes from young people and they really believe this stuff leaves me to think what's in store for our country in 20 or 30 years.



There were people saying this similar to what you've quoted here even when the events were occurring.  I don't think you need to worry about today's youth though. There are plenty of young soldiers serving today that I think are more representative of the leaders of tomorrow then the few comments on some facebook group.


----------



## Stoker

jeffb said:
			
		

> There were people saying this similar to what you've quoted here even when the events were occurring.  I don't think you need to worry about today's youth though. There are plenty of young soldiers serving today that I think are more representative of the leaders of tomorrow then the few comments on some facebook group.



I know but it still pisses me off that people can really think that way. I guess serving ones country protect the freedom of speech these morons enjoy even though we might not like it.


----------



## Good2Golf

Stoker said:
			
		

> I know but it still pisses me off that people can really think that way. I guess serving ones country protect the freedom of speech these morons enjoy even though we might not like it.



Yes.

To be honest, it doesn't bother me that much; I just apply a little statistical analysis and figure people like those quoted above are a "minus 10-sigma" type.  The benefit to actually serving one's country and its people and preserving our values and assisting those of other nations far outweighs someone's myopic view of past conflict.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Scott

Just attention whores with zero education. Ignore then and you win. I know it's not easy.


----------



## 2010newbie

Stoker said:
			
		

> This facebook page was brought to my attention called the "White Poppy for Peace". This is some of the "stuff" that is being said.
> 
> 
> That they complain over lost revenues for their clubs (in which they celebrate the wondrous accomplishments of the Ku Klux Klan, as we recently found out) is, to me, simply a further sign of their massive egos. As such I don't regard it as valid whatsoever.



I have purchased poppies every year for probably around 20 years or so and it wasn't until this year that I realized that poppy sales revenue does not go to the Legion. It is held in trust to be spent on community projects and charitable organizations. I have mentioned this to a few people when poppy discusions have come up and they were shocked as well. I think it is a great thing that they do and the charitable work that Legions do in their communities should be more publicized. My local Legion is talking about how they can support the purchase of a new MRI for the local hospital! It is unfortunate that people making comments like this in public forums like Facebook will be believed by some and possibly sway someone's opinion to purchase poppies in the future based upon one person's misinformed opinion.


----------



## acooper

Scott has it right.

Ignorant trolls such as those claiming that vets have inflated egos, etc, get their power from the attention given them. Ignore them, and their power goes away. They are so set in their opinion that attempting to "change their minds" will just get turned around so that to them, you are just becoming what they say you are. If they are ignored, they will disappear...


----------



## Edward Campbell

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> To be honest, it doesn't bother me that much; I just apply a little statistical analysis and figure people like those quoted above are a "minus 10-sigma" type.  The benefit to actually serving one's country and its people and preserving our values and assisting those of other nations far outweighs someone's myopic view of past conflict.
> 
> Regards
> G2G




I have a dog, or two, in this fight: my father, LCrd W.F. Campbell was killed in action at sea on 6 Feb 43 while in command of HMCS Louisburg; I served in the Canadian Army and CF for nearly 37 years in several different non-commissioned and commissioned ranks - I swapped the odd round with strangers; my son is a MARS officer, at sea, as we speak.

I agree with G2G; it, these opinions, don't bother me, either. I *know* why everyone from Jordan Anderson through Bobby Girouard and Geoff Parker fought and died and it was to defend our collective *right* to think and spout stupid things while we are all young.

Chill, as young people say.


----------



## mariomike

Stoker said:
			
		

> This facebook page was brought to my attention called the "White Poppy for Peace". This is some of the "stuff" that is being said.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I know this is a small segment that spouts this garbage, but the fact that it comes from young people and they really believe this stuff leaves me to think what's in store for our country in 20 or 30 years.



More "stuff":
"Remembrance Day is a SCAM !":
http://www.billcasselman.com/holidays/remembrance_day__a_scam.htm


----------



## Edward Campbell

mariomike said:
			
		

> More "stuff":
> "Remembrance Day is a SCAM !":
> http://www.billcasselman.com/holidays/remembrance_day__a_scam.htm




It's an opinion; we are *free* to have and express opinions. The reasons many soldiers fight and die is to preserve that freedom. It's not _my_ opinion but I would fight for his right to express it; if I wouldn't fight to defend his (Casselman's) free speech then I would be a lousy soldier and a worse human being.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Opinions are like rectums.  Everyone has one.  Some though are rectum opinions.


----------



## HavokFour

Apparently individuals from the white poppy group went to the National War Memorial to lay a white poppy reef after the ceremony concluded and everyone left (I wonder why?). They were confronted by passers by, asking them to not lay the reef, and how the white poppy is an insult to veterans.

They layed it, but someone made off with it shortly after (;D).

And I quote, from a CTV interview.

Before: "It's not a political statement."
After (reef taken): "I feel violated, my right to freedom of expression was violated!"

Next year if I see white poppies on the Memorial, I'm going to have a go at them with a red sharpie. Deal with it.


----------



## pbi

jeffb said:
			
		

> There were people saying this similar to what you've quoted here even when the events were occurring.  I don't think you need to worry about today's youth though. There are plenty of young soldiers serving today that I think are more representative of the leaders of tomorrow then the few comments on some facebook group.



Idealism and strong beliefs, even if they aren't tempered by wisdom, are what we expect of young people:



> "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."  (Sir Winston Churchill, 1874-1965)



Despite that, what I see around me, wherever I've been in this country, especially in the last few years, tells me that the overwhelming majority of Canadians, of all ages, share in the true sentiment of Remembrance Day.



> Just to clear things up. Calling people who are anti-war, or protestors, or a white poppy wearer a hippie, is as good an argument as them calling YOU a conservative, redneck, trigger happy, gun freak. You're going to have to remember that to fight thier logic, you're going to have to use more than the same insulting strategies they are using. Generalizations and steriotyping won't get your point across, and using such typical "conservative right" language puts you on the same level as them.




Good observation. We can be equally guilty of "politicizing" Remembrance Day, if we're not careful, thus pulling the rug out from under our own feet in the argument with people like the  white poppy crowd.  

As usual, in Canada  we are struggling with the question, (often debated on these pages), of just what freedom of expression really means, and how much right people have to express an opinion or belief that is considered hurtful, insulting or inflammatory.

Cheers


----------



## Edward Campbell

Christie Blatchford is *speaking for me* in this column, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/christie-blatchford/best-we-forget-the-oprah-ization-of-remembrance-day/article1797577/


> Best we forget the Oprah-ization of Remembrance Day
> 
> CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
> 
> From Saturday's Globe and Mail
> Published Friday, Nov. 12, 2010
> 
> It was the night before Remembrance Day, at the True Patriot Love dinner in Toronto, that it all became too much for me and I had enough.
> 
> During the course of the speeches – there were many – someone referred to the members of the audience as heroes for their support at this event, and for soldiers generally.
> 
> I can’t remember now who said it, but I almost gagged: The currency is indeed cheapened when plonking down $750 a plate, or plonking down not a sou but being the happy recipient of corporate largesse and being invited to sit at your company’s table, as I was, qualifies as heroic.
> 
> I slipped out shortly afterward, before the main event speakers, just as on Nov. 11 itself, I left the city’s annual ceremony at Old City Hall early.
> 
> I can’t remember ever before missing a minute of a Remembrance Day service, and I always go and always have done.
> 
> I don’t for a minute doubt the worthiness of that dinner, which raised $2.4-million last year for the Military Families Fund created by former chief of the defence staff Rick Hillier.
> 
> I’m not calling anyone’s noble motives into question.
> 
> I’m just weary of it. When I was trying to explain all this to my friend Mary, whose brother is a serving soldier with the reserves and a friend of mine, she said, “Oh, you mean the Oprah-ization of Remembrance Day?” And that is it exactly.
> 
> As I fell asleep on Nov. 10, the last thing I heard was a Tim Horton’s commercial for Remembrance Day; this time it wasn’t the words that grated, but the wretched syrupy music. When I turned on the tube on Nov. 11, it was inexplicably tuned to a station carrying the Live with Regis and Kelly show; I believe it was Mr. Philbin who said, and I’m operating on memory here, “I think everyone should thank a veteran today.” I turned it off, lest I hear him tell Americans also to hug their veterans.
> 
> For virtually the entire month, and I know I’m not alone, I’ve been the recipient of a barrage of unsolicited Remembrance Day poems (mostly dreadful), songs (ditto), personal memoirs (ditto) and videos and speeches, most delivered in that heavy, uber-serious voice broadcasters affect when they want the viewer to pay attention.
> 
> Such overweening sadness, and certainly such pretentiousness, is not my experience of soldiers, modern or old, or even of the families of the fallen.
> 
> My memories of my time as an embedded reporter with the 1st Battalion Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry and The Royal Canadian Regiment 1st Battalion in Kandahar are of young men and women with a sense of purpose I envied, straight shooters always, who rarely spoke the hyperpatriotic language so in fashion now.
> 
> From commanding officer to lowly private, they were perfectly clear that they fought for one another and the well-being of their unit, whether company or platoon. They were funny, bright, profane, with an overdeveloped sense of responsibility that seemed to do little to temper a ribald, even bleak, humour and a tangible sense of well-being, odd as that may sound.
> 
> When one of their own was killed or wounded, they grieved hard and fast, and then got on with the job. Yet they never seemed even to try to do what in the modern lexicon is known as “moving on” or “getting on” with their lives. They spoke often of the dead, named bases and peaks and rocks for them, and when they got home to Canada, visited the families of their fallen, told them as much or as little as they wanted to know, and as often as possible, got ragingly drunk.
> 
> Perhaps because combat, as Sebastian Junger writes in his wonderful new book War, is so insanely exciting, because it strips away anything extraneous and imbues the trivial with huge importance (Mr. Junger’s illustration is the soldier with loose laces, who can’t be counted on to keep his feet when it matters and thus puts other men’s lives at risk), because colours are brighter and more stark, they were as often as not joyous.
> 
> They had nothing but disdain and suspicion, as did my late father (a navigator with the Royal Canadian Air Force during the Second World War) and those of his generation I met, for the military bureaucracy, for the plethora of paper-pushers at defence headquarters and for the endless B.S. and stupid rules that no other organization can perfect like an army can.
> 
> I cannot help but imagine that as glad as they might be for civilian Canada’s current devotion to “supporting the troops” – if only because it is far less unpleasant than the dark days of the Canadian Forces when soldiers occasionally would be spit upon – they would have little stomach for the witless sappiness that has been in the air all week.
> 
> If corporate Canada really wanted to show its appreciation for soldiers, companies could hire more of them when they leave the army: All any soldier really learns is how to lead, how to care more for his fellows than he does for himself. Surely the world can use a little more of that.
> 
> And if you really must say thanks to a veteran, send him over a damn drink and shut up.



Bang on, Christie. Thanks for saying it for me.



Edit: added link, which I forgot  :-[


----------



## GAP

She does have the knack of getting to the nub of the issue.....


----------



## CombatDoc

Excellent article by Ms Blatchford, once again she hits the nail right on the head.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just a bump, reminding us the white poppy's still out and about....


> Quebec’s first white poppy campaign is being heralded as a major success by organizers, but it has generated some backlash from those who say the traditional poppy is an important symbol of remembrance that should not be trifled with.
> 
> The white poppy, modelled after the red version that adorns the lapels of millions of Canadians each November, was first produced by Britain’s Co-operative Women’s Guild in 1933. The flower is promoted as a symbol of peace, and according to Britain’s Peace Pledge Union, “was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War.”
> 
> The pins have been sold in other Canadian provinces in the past, but 2011 marks the first time an official white poppy campaign has been organized in Quebec. The group behind the initiative, the Collectif Échec à la guerre, is an anti-war organization that promotes the non-violent resolution of conflict.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Several callers to a CBC Radio phone-in program last week expressed their discomfort with the idea of a different breed of poppy. The Royal Canadian Legion’s Quebec Command is being even more forthright in their opposition.
> 
> “We’re against it,” said Margot Arsenault, the Legion’s provincial president. “The poppy is the trademark of the Royal Canadian Legion and should not be used by any other association.”
> 
> The Royal Canadian Legion distributes 18 million red poppies each year as a reminder of the sacrifice of the 117,000 Canadians who died in the two world wars, the Korean War and other conflicts.
> 
> Ms. Arsenault, whose father was a veteran, said the traditional poppy holds a deep symbolic meaning for the average Canadian, and should not be modified in any way to promote a different cause.
> 
> “The red poppy already stands for peace,” she added. “(The campaign organizers) are saying they’re using this white poppy to promote peace, but nobody wants war. We’re very fortunate to live in a country where there isn’t war.”
> 
> The fact the white poppies are being sold at the same time as the annual red poppy campaign is another reason the Legion opposes it, Ms. Arsenault said ....


_National Post_, 9 Nov 11


----------



## kstart

:camo:


----------



## The Bread Guy

It's that time of year again, folks!

Disarmament lobby group ceasefire.ca flogs the white poppy again, then whines in an e-mail newsletter about the attention the group is getting for flogging white poppies (PDF of newsletter at Dropbox.com)

The VAC Minister, and others, on the white poppy, shared here in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the _Copyright Act_ ....


> A pacifist campaign to distribute white poppy pins in the week leading up to Remembrance Day is getting under the veterans affairs minister’s skin.
> 
> “It really does show a total lack of respect for what, in fact, Remembrance Day stands for,” Julian Fantino said Tuesday. “And to try and intervene in this fashion, I think, is totally disrespectful, and I would suspect that most reasonable Canadians would see it that way.”
> 
> Fantino’s comments come a day after young activists with the left-wing Rideau Institute unveiled pins bearing the slogan “I Remember for Peace” at the National War Memorial in Ottawa.
> 
> The University of Ottawa’s Celyn Dufay said the pins would be distributed to those who “don’t want to celebrate war.”
> 
> Conservative MP Ted Opitz, a former army reservist, joined Fantino’s charge, calling on the Liberals and NDP to denounce the “ideological extremists” behind the white poppy pins.
> 
> New Democrat MP Alexandre Boulerice shrugged off Optiz’s call.
> 
> “I never saw those buttons before, and I don’t know,” said Boulerice, who created a firestorm of controversy last April for a blog post that trashed the First World War as a capitalist conflict fought “on the backs of the workers and peasants.”
> 
> Liberal veterans affairs critic Jim Karygiannis, however, said the students distributing the pins have offended veterans.
> 
> “They made their sacrifices in blood, and for us to disrespect them, I think the young individuals should really reconsider what they’re doing and get a reality check,” he said.


----------



## George Wallace

It is disappointing to see that our education system has been so lacking for so long.  Steven Staples of the Rideau Institute is not a young pup, so it is an indication how long we have been seeing the degradation of the education system in Canada.  For the University of Ottawa students to now actively promote this, demonstrates the successes of our Veterans to preserve our way of life and freedom, allowing ignorant voices to be heard.  Yes, it is a slap in the face of those who have made the sacrifices to preserve those freedoms and a shame that such 'educated' people can not comprehend the significance and meaning of the Red Poppy.  

I find it amusing that this movement, Rideau Institute and the U of O students, have chosen the White Poppy.  Their colour may vary from plant to plant, but traditionally, opium poppies are white.  That speaks volumes to me.  




I wonder what they have been smoking?   >


----------



## CougarKing

The National Post's Matt Gurney takes issue with the protestors' flawed logic that the red poppies "symbolize war" while the white ones supposedly symbolize peace.

Gurney hits the nail with his rebuff of their flawed logic.  

National Post



> *Matt Gurney: Protesters need to learn history; the poppy is already a symbol of peace*
> 
> (...)
> 
> *The red poppy is inherently a symbol of peace. Not just of peace as a concept — pleasant a concept as it is — but as the hard-won peace that hundreds of thousands of Canadians, and our allies, earned at such great cost. *  The poppy is not a symbol of our victory — a national flag or a military battle ensign or guidon would serve more than ably in that role. Poppies are not a symbol of military conquest and national glory; indeed, they are not a symbol of any nation at all.
> 
> Though no Canadian should need to be reminded, it is worth ever so briefly recapping why the poppy was chosen as the symbol of remembrance. As is so memorably told in John McCrae’s In Flanders Fields, the poppies were the Belgian wildflower that went forth and multiplied so prodigiously in the blood-soaked, artillery churned soil of First World War battlefields. They added a rare splash of colour, and life, in the blasted landscapes of that brutal conflict. And the poppies bloomed over the shattered bodies and among the trenches of the Allies and our enemies alike.
> 
> There can be no better symbol of peace than that. The very existence of a white poppy campaign, ostensibly to promote peace, is insulting by its implication that the red poppy glorifies war. No one who saw the poppies blooming in the blood of 1915, or has walked the silent rows of white headstones in the Commonwealth war cemeteries that are still carefully tended throughout Europe, sees any glory there.
> 
> War is, as the cliché tells us, hell. In modern times, we Westerners have been spared the full horrors of total global conflict. But there are still Canadians today who remember the Second World War, even fought in it. There are also thousands of Canadians with us today who served in Afghanistan, and countless Canadians who loved or knew someone who went to that far-off land and never returned. There are the Canadians who died in peacetime, in accidents at home and abroad, while standing guard in Western Europe across from the might of the Soviet Red Army, or while doing their best to bring peace to war-torn lands abroad. And, of course, there are all those that these peace-time casualties left behind.
> 
> I wonder how much they feel Celyn Dufay has to teach them about sacrifice and the glorification of war.
> 
> Personally, I see no problem with Canadians taking pride in what our country has accomplished on the battlefield. War is hell, but just wars are sometimes necessary. The brutal reality is this — if guys like my grandfather hadn’t flown bombers against German cities during the flower of their youth, guys like my brother-in-law’s grandfather would never have gotten out of Auschwitz alive. There is evil in the world, and some problems that can only be solved through the controlled application of violence. That is a tragic fact, but less tragic than what happens when the good guys decide they’re too kind-hearted to fight the bad ones, or fail to prepare for the possibility of war and are unable to raise an army in time.
> 
> *But that’s not glorifying war. It’s acknowledging what others have done on our behalf, at great (sometimes ultimate) personal sacrifice. War should not be glorified, but it should be remembered, so that the peace we’re lucky enough to enjoy today can be fully appreciated. The poppy is how we do that — and I’m wearing my red one with pride.*


----------



## Scott

I haven't seen one yet. What I have seen is a load of the local students wearing the red poppy, more than I can recall from ever before.

I think it's important to remember that not all students fall into the same category (whatever you wish to name it: stupid, attention gathering, misinformed, etc) as the few who are actively doing this.

I am shocked that Staples, et al. could miss such simple distinctions in their whining bunch of self serving bullshit. Credibility: fail. Any student that does any amount of research would have a field day debunking their statements.


----------



## Journeyman

Scott said:
			
		

> I am shocked that Staples, et al. could miss such simple distinctions in their whining bunch of self serving bullshit.



....only in a Captain Renault sort of way.....







     :boring:


----------



## pbi

Oh, well..it's their right, I guess. We don't have to like it, but drawing too much attention to them probably isn't a good idea either.

These people have been around forever (or at least, since 1933...). They are probably the same ones who were going round Kingston a couple of years ago defacing/removing "I Support The Troops" stickers.

To me, you wear a red poppy, period. What you wear it for, or what you think about when you're wearing it, are your business.


----------



## The Bread Guy

pbi said:
			
		

> Oh, well..it's their right, I guess. We don't have to like it, but drawing too much attention to them probably isn't a good idea either.


Agreed.  That's why I laugh when the group promoting the idea whines about the concept being discussed (and disagreed with) in public - I guess they're learning media & public attention can be a two-edged sword.

Also, a mention from a Tory MP in the House of Commons yesterday:


> Mr. Speaker, I call upon my colleagues in the Liberal Party and in the NDP to join with me in denouncing the ideological extremists who, this Remembrance Day, are defacing the poppy, and in doing so, disrespecting the courage, sacrifice and honour that generations of Canadian veterans have made for our freedom and for theirs.
> 
> The so-called white poppy campaign is an outrage. It dishonours our veterans.
> 
> I ask all parliamentarians to support my call to lay politics aside this Remembrance Day, leave the poppy in its glorious red and stand to remember the sacrifices of our veterans, and to not play crass political games this week and on November 11.


----------



## pbi

I tend to turn off when I see Staples' name connected to anything.....


----------



## jollyjacktar

Not that I agree with how they're promoting the idea of peace, but the idea of what they're promoting.  As are we all.  

From that standpoint, the one's whom we do remember might not necessarily be so pissed off at these Stapleites who are enjoying the freedom to be idiots, which was won and paid for at such a high cost by those we remember.  And after all, isn't that why we do what we do and they did before us for our fellow citizens? To stand up and guard the peace and freedoms for all perhaps at the cost of our lives.

pbi - I have Staples on permenant ignore in my head.  He's a tool in my opinon.


----------



## myself.only

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ...the idea of what they're promoting.



But what they're promoting isn't peace, they're promoting the position that the red poppy, those who wear it and the traditional acts of remembrance are all glorifying war... hence the need for their innovative, new and improved white poppy.


----------



## AirDet

I couldn't care less what colour the center of the RED poppy is. What really angers me is this whole white poppy thing. These cowards need to give their heads a shake. 

I suppose those that fought did so to secure freedom of speech for these freaks and generations to come. It just seems like a sharp blade has been driven squarely between the shoulder blades of our Honoured Vets.

Would it be such a bad thing to pull those white poppies off and stomp on them?


----------



## x_para76

I certainly don't disagree with promoting peace however in this situation it just seems to me that the way it's being done is in bad taste. There are 364 other days in the year that they could promote this and wear a white poppy or any other symbol they choose. The fact that they chose a poppy and to do it on Remembrance Day in an effort to bring attention to their cause by piggy backing on to such a day of significance for so many shows a lack of judgement and respect IMO.


----------



## George Wallace

AirDet said:
			
		

> I couldn't care less what colour the center of the RED poppy is. What really angers me is this whole white poppy thing. These cowards need to give their heads a shake.
> 
> I suppose those that fought did so to secure freedom of speech for these freaks and generations to come. It just seems like a sharp blade has been driven squarely between the shoulder blades of our Honoured Vets.
> 
> Would it be such a bad thing to pull those white poppies off and stomp on them?



We all are of the same convictions.  It is an insult to the Vets and those that serve, but a Right that our service has guaranteed them.  I think that if you seriously were to start to pull white poppies off these 'confused' twits, you would find that there would be a 'Barrack room Lawyer' in that crowd just waiting to charge you with "ASSAULT".

Perhaps it would be better to educate them that:

1.  White has been associated with COWARDICE (ie. the White Feathers of bygone days.);

2.  White has been associated with "SURRENDER"; and 

3.  White Poppies have been associated with the OPIUM TRADE.

 >  Would that mean that they would rather be cowering in an Opium den than looking forward towards the future?  




Oh well, the miscreants will make fools of themselves and it will be over with for another year.

Making its rounds on FB:


----------



## The Bread Guy

myself.only said:
			
		

> .... their innovative, new and improved white poppy.


Not that new or innovative - been around since about 1933.


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> White has been associated with.......






"Cheese-eating surrender monkeys"   ;D


----------



## x_para76

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We all are of the same convictions.  It is an insult to the Vets and those that serve, but a Right that our service has guaranteed them.  I think that if you seriously were to start to pull white poppies off these 'confused' twits, you would find that there would be a 'Barrack room Lawyer' in that crowd just waiting to charge you with "ASSAULT".
> 
> Perhaps it would be better to educate them that:
> 
> 1.  White has been associated with COWARDICE (ie. the White Feathers of bygone days.);
> 
> 2.  White has been associated with "SURRENDER"; and j
> 
> 3.  White Poppies have been associated with the OPIUM TRADE.
> 
> >  Would that mean that they would rather be cowering in an Opium den than looking forward towards the future?
> 
> 
> Oh well, the miscreants will make fools of themselves and it will be over with for another year.
> 
> Making its rounds on FB:



That and if we go pulling off their white poppies and filling them in then we'll be playing right into their stereotype of us that we're all mindless warmongering thugs.


----------



## The Bread Guy

X_para76 said:
			
		

> That and if we go pulling off their white poppies and filling them in then we'll be playing right into their stereotype of us that we're all mindless warmongering thugs.


 :nod:

Also, something to help maintain a bit of perspective:


> .... One report I read said perhaps *11,000* people wear white poppies at this time of year in Canada. The red poppy, meanwhile, is worn by an estimated *18 million*.


----------



## myself.only

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Not that new or innovative - been around since about 1933.



Even then, they deliberately hijacked a pre-existing symbol, slandered its meaning, and adopted a defaced version. 
What next?
Santa with a goatee symbolizes the de-commercialization of Christmas?


----------



## Emilio

Oh man, why do people like this exist?  :facepalm:


----------



## George Wallace

Emilio said:
			
		

> Oh man, why do people like this exist?  :facepalm:



So we can be meanies and pick on them.   >


----------



## larry Strong

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So we can be meanies and pick on them.   >





Ummmmm....in todays society that would be considered "Bullying"...........


Larry


----------



## George Wallace

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Ummmmm....in todays society that would be considered "Bullying"...........
> 
> 
> Larry



Tit for tat really.  Their provocative versions of reality are offensive to many.  What is wrong with making fun in pointing out the fallacies in their brain functions?


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Tit for tat really.  Their provocative versions of reality are offensive to many.  What is wrong with making fun in pointing out the fallacies in their brain functions?


Using that as a bit of a launch pad, here's something an interesting point raised in a column on the red-vs-white thing:


> .... if some people choose to wear white poppies — to promote pacifism, peace, nuclear disarmament or what have you — so be it.
> 
> That doesn’t, however, excuse from criticism those who insist on hijacking a solemn ceremony. By planning to crash the Remembrance Day ceremony at the National War Memorial in Ottawa on Monday, students risk looking like authors of a disrespectful stunt to distribute their “peace” flowers to those gathered to honour men and women who fought and died to achieve peace.
> 
> Yet even appalling insensitivity is not illegal ....


----------



## a_majoor

If someone offers a white poppy, just say:

"I'm wearing a red poppy to remember those who gave their lives so you could be free to make a thoughtless gesture..."


----------



## JorgSlice

:goodpost:


----------



## pbi

Thucydides said:
			
		

> If someone offers a white poppy, just say:
> 
> "I'm wearing a red poppy to remember those who gave their lives so you could be free to make a thoughtless gesture..."



The best approach, respecting both the meaning of the day, and their right to freedom of expression.  It should remind them that they live in a pretty free, tolerant and forgiving society. 

Which is something worth defending.


----------



## x_para76

:goodpost:


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm not offended by the white poppy, nor with the thought behind it.

We, the big "we," including the Government of Canada, the CF, the Legion and all of us who do know better have failed to make the real meaning - remembrance - of the poppy absolutely clear. A handful of _activists_, many of who are anti-military, some of whom are militantly anti-war (isn't that a nice contradiction in terms?   ) and a few of whom were, especially back in the 1930s to '60s, just following Moscow's _party line_, have stolen the original white poppy campaign and they have persuaded another generation of youngsters to believe nonsense.

We have, I think, blurred the meaning of *Remembrance Day*; the legion, for example, wants a _veterans' day_ ~ understandable, because it's a veterans' organization. The CF wants to honour everyone in uniform. The Government of Canada wants to show that it "cares," without actually doing anything that costs money.







That's *all* it is about: not war, not veterans, not the military: just the dead and remembering "those," as Wilfred Owen put it "who die as cattle."






Soldiers, real soldiers, anyway, don't glorify war ~ they know it too well.


----------



## The Bread Guy

:goodpost:



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> *Soldiers, real soldiers, anyway, don't glorify war ~ they know it too well.*


QFT


----------



## Jungle

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Soldiers, real soldiers, anyway, don't glorify war ~ they know it too well.



Without glorifying war, we are mature enough to understand that conflict, whether it is between family members, groups, countries, cultures, religions, etc... is part of the human experience. We can wish it went away, denounce it, hate it, work to prevent it, but we cannot afford to be unprepared for it, or forget about those who went before and made the ultimate sacrifice in it.


----------



## Nudibranch

According to CBC, "Poppy veteran" is a thing:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poppy-veteran-kicked-out-of-costco-1.2417435

The article calls Mr. Hamilton both a former cadet _and_ a war veteran. (The video does not - I gather he's an ex-cadet and a civi Legion member supporting vets.)



> A former air cadet has run afoul of retailing giant Costco for attempting to sell Remembrance Day poppies in a Langley store.
> The retailer told war veteran Wayne Hamilton last weekend to stop fundraising on store premises. "They said it just wasn't my day," explains Hamilton.



I am surprised about Costco's policy. It's not like there's an equally important campaign going on at the same time that they feel they'd need to give "equal time" to.


----------



## myself.only

Well, I know when the local Costco refused to let cadets tag on their premises they explained their policy is zero tolerance for anyone asking customers for donations, however the organization should approach head office for a corporate donation instead. 

Still, maybe it's me, but you'd hope the poppy campaign would get an exemption...


----------



## PMedMoe

myself.only said:
			
		

> Still, maybe it's me, but you'd hope the poppy campaign would get an exemption...



Yes, but then every charitable organization would want an exception too.



			
				Nudibranch said:
			
		

> I am surprised about Costco's policy. It's not like there's an equally important campaign going on at the same time that they feel they'd need to give "equal time" to.



It's the time of year that many charities operate, due to the upcoming holiday season.  I, for one, accept Costco's solution.  As did the Legion and Mr. Hamilton.

Best comment on that story:


> The vet selling the poppies, and the legion spokesperson say they are happy with their relationship with Costco, and the fact they make a space for them on a scheduled basis.
> Costco simply pointed out to him that it wasn't their scheduled day.
> CBC then runs a headline saying he was "Kicked Out" of Costco for selling poppies in order to inflame the readership.
> This kind of story definitely fits the category of Yellow Journalism. Like the former press baron James Randolf Hearst once said to one of his reporters after being told there would likely be no war with Cuba (Spanish American War)....You provide the stories, I'll provide the war. In this case CBC is covering both aspects.


----------



## Nudibranch

myself.only said:
			
		

> Well, I know when the local Costco refused to let cadets tag on their premises they explained their policy is zero tolerance for anyone asking customers for donations, however the organization should approach head office for a corporate donation instead.
> 
> Still, maybe it's me, but you'd hope the poppy campaign would get an exemption...



It does, it's that they have specific days/hrs set aside, that Mr. Hamilton didn't know about when he went there.


----------



## PMedMoe

Nudibranch said:
			
		

> It does, it's that they have specific days/hrs set aside, that Mr. Hamilton didn't know about when he went there.



To be fair, myself.only said "local" Costco, which may not have the same policy.


----------



## Lightguns

Aren't Legion Reps supposed to tee up with the duty store manager when they get to the store?  Maybe the former air cadet over stepped his bound.


----------



## Nudibranch

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It's the time of year that many charities operate, due to the upcoming holiday season.  I, for one, accept Costco's solution.  As did the Legion and Mr. Hamilton.



I don't have an issue with it, although I was a bit surprised. In the vid the Legion spokesperson does say they hope to negotiate with Costco for the Fri before Remembrance Day, for next year. 

Mostly I'm amused that CBC is calling ex-Cadets vets. War vets, poppy vets. Sleepover camp vets?


----------



## George Wallace

To be honest, it isn't so much the "White Poppy" that I find insulting and rude, but the attitude of the people pushing for it and their proposed antics on Remembrance Day.  Would they conduct themselves in a similar manner at a solemn ceremony in a place of worship like a church/synagogue/mosque as well?


----------



## myself.only

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Aren't Legion Reps supposed to tee up with the duty store manager when they get to the store?  Maybe the former air cadet over stepped his bound.



I think you've nailed it on both counts.


----------



## Journeyman

The good news is, this can be put to rest after this weekend....to be dredged up again _next_ November 3rd or 4th, where the same pronouncements will draw the same responses.

       op:


----------



## PMedMoe

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The good news is, this can be put to rest after this weekend....to be dredged up again _next_ November 3rd or 4th, where the same pronouncements will draw the same responses.



Well, I'm quite sure that is their main agenda.   :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Poppies should be red.  No change required.

In light of JM's post above, I'll also get ahead of the curve here with the next 'monthly event debate' and state the following:

- it is a Christmas Tree, vice Holiday Tree or whatever other stupid PC name someone will try to force on me.

- it is perfectly okay to say MERRY CHRISTMAS not just Happy Holidays.

- if you don't like this part of Canada, great!  I also don't celebrate other cultures festive occasions but don't stop other Canadians from enjoying them, please afford me the same courtesy.

There, done and one less thing to worry about during the Christmas season.     Should be good to what...Easter or Victoria Day or something like that.


----------



## Teager

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Poppies should be red.  No change required.
> 
> In light of JM's post above, I'll also get ahead of the curve here with the next 'monthly event debate' and state the following:
> 
> - it is a Christmas Tree, vice Holiday Tree or whatever other stupid PC name someone will try to force on me.
> 
> - it is perfectly okay to say MERRY CHRISTMAS not just Happy Holidays.
> 
> - if you don't like this part of Canada, great!  I also don't celebrate other cultures festive occasions but don't stop other Canadians from enjoying them, please afford me the same courtesy.
> 
> There, done and one less thing to worry about during the Christmas season.     Should be good to what...Easter or Victoria Day or something like that.



 :goodpost:


----------



## PMedMoe

Print a bunch of copies of this and hand one out to anyone who tries to give you a white poppy.


----------



## spacey

Thucydides said:
			
		

> If someone offers a white poppy, just say:
> 
> "I'm wearing a red poppy to remember those who gave their lives so you could be free to make a thoughtless gesture..."



Best thing I have heard all day!

@PMedMoe I am going to be sending that strip everywhere!! Hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Remius

George Wallace said:
			
		

> To be honest, it isn't so much the "White Poppy" that I find insulting and rude, but the attitude of the people pushing for it and their proposed antics on Remembrance Day.  Would they conduct themselves in a similar manner at a solemn ceremony in a place of worship like a church/synagogue/mosque as well?



You hit it right there.  This isn't about a white poppy.  It isn't even about remembering for peace as they put it.  It's a protest pure and simple.  They don't like red poppies even though they don't understand its true meaning.  

If they decided to wear a white poppy to commemorate some peace day that happens at some other time I'd have no issues with it and would take it a face value.

This is an attempt to co-opt something they despise.  Rememberance Day and all activities surrounding because they believe that it is all about glorifying war.  

This is no different than some people showing up on Gay Pride day with some sort of pro-hetero message or showing up at a Black History event with white pride propaganda.

It's designed to stir **** and to get attention they wouldn't otherwise get on any other day.  If somebody wears that poppy they are nothing but hypocrites.

The fact that it is their right to do so doesn't make the bad taste in one's mouth go away.

Between their Mountain Dew and the crab juice, I'll take the crab juice, thanks. (Simpson's reference for those who are wondering).

Modified for grammar.


----------



## The Bread Guy

An interesting take from a former UK RAF member, via his blog, on colours and what he thinks we should remember:


> .... I am not going to get in to the outrage caused and felt by the colour of the poppy. Christ, there is room in the garden for poppies of all colours – as long as we are remembering that people died and were killed and fought and suffered for us to have the privilege – the honour – to chose the colour of our poppy. By exercising the choose to wear what the hell we want – or even NOT to wear – we are honouring those men and women.  They died so that we can exercise that choice.
> 
> We don’t dishonour them by not wearing the right colour.  We might dishonour them by what we say though. Calling a poppy a symbol of hate or warmongering, or a symbol of cowardice or a symbol of disrespect does disrespect those who gave their all. It doesn’t matter what colour poppy is worn. As long as some form of remembering is carried out.  Remembering that they lived and died in terrible conditions, facing great hardships that I hope, and pray (even though I am not a religious man) that no one would ever have to suffer again.  Because, at the end of the day we are remembering that people died.
> 
> (....)
> 
> I am the member of a group that supports the carers of Wounded Injured and Sick service personnel.  And We share our stories, our moods and our troubles and even, when they happen, our successes.  And in this sharing I see that we are not the only ones fighting.  The stories are terrible.  With stories of unfairness, of bad treatment, of injustice, of discrimination, cover-ups and errors.
> 
> People injured in service having to buy their own prosthetic legs.  Pay for their own treatment.  Fund their own adaptations to their houses.  People forced to leave the service they have loved and given their all for and forgotten about and ignored.
> 
> Thankfully the Charities don’t forget them.  Help 4 Heroes, the Royal British Legion, Combat Stress, SSAFA, the individual Benevolent Funds and many many more organisations provide support, both physical and mental to people.  And they do it through the donation of YOUR charity pound.
> 
> But, and here’s my rather long winded point, they shouldn’t have to.  It should not be the responsibility of the charity sector to support and aid our injured.  Our own fight seems to be a fight with the government itself.  It seems that governments of all colours throughout the years have consistently said they have supported and cared for the injured of wars and conflicts. But the evidence, clear for all to see is that they haven’t. They don’t ....


----------



## Emilio

"In defence of the white poppy" By Todd Pettigrew

Maclean.ca

http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2013/11/06/in-defense-of-the-white-poppy/



> Students at the University of Ottawa came under fire this week for supporting the white poppy campaign, a drive to get people to wear a white poppy rather than the traditional red one, on the grounds that the red poppy can be seen as a tacit support of war itself. Since white is traditionally associated with peace, the white poppy is meant to meant to support remembrance but with an emphasis on peace rather than war itself.
> 
> This piece in The Toronto Sun sneers at students for “hopping aboard” a “left wing” bandwagon. The Minister of Veterans Affairs jumped in too, calling the campaign “totally disrespectful.” Meanwhile, over at the National Post, Matt Gurney claims that the “very existence” of the campaign “is insulting by its implication that the red poppy glorifies war.”
> 
> Too bad. The red poppy does glorify war. And it has been so successful in doing so that it seems as though its supporters don’t even realize they are doing it. Celyn Dufay, the Ottawa student at the centre of this imbroglio is quite right in explaining, simply enough, “we want to work for peace.”
> 
> Here’s what people like Dufay are up against. Gurney, for example, who writes:
> 
> there are still Canadians today who remember the Second World War, even fought in it. There are also thousands of Canadians with us today who served in Afghanistan, and countless Canadians who loved or knew someone who went to that far-off land and never returned. There are Canadians who died in peacetime, in accidents at home and abroad, while standing guard in Western Europe across from the might of the Soviet Red Army, or while doing their best to bring peace to war-torn lands abroad.
> 
> If I may presume to speak for the students in question, I would suggest that it is the thinly-veiled celebration of the martial spirit that they find troubling. Gurney, for instance, invokes the romantic image of the poor loved ones left at home, as if our forces did not deprive others of their loved ones, and adds more romance with the fairy tale diction of the “far off land.”  No mention of that far off land called Somalia, though, where Canadian soldiers disgraced our nation in 1993 with their murders and lies. No mention of the host of scandals that have plagued the forces. No mention of the forces standing on guard when the military assisted in rounding up Japanese immigrants during the Second World War. Oh, and no mention that the mighty Red Army of the Soviets didn’t seem so bad to us when we allied with it and turned half of Europe over to its brutal, oppressive regime.
> 
> But Gurney’s view is nuanced compared to that of the Royal Canadian Legion, which markets the red poppies and which has threatened to sue over the white poppy campaign. As the Legion’s web site has it:
> 
> it is not only to honour the fallen that we observe Remembrance Day each and every year. As part of our observance, we also acknowledge the courage and sacrifice of both the Veterans including currently serving.
> 
> Again, the rhetoric of heroism is clear. Deceased soldiers are not dead but “fallen.” No one went to war because of wartime propaganda that stoked racism or shamed them into it, but rather because of their “courage.” And no talk of the needless slaughter of millions of pawns in power struggles of empires. No, only talk of “sacrifice” as though the soldiers wanted to die. How can the Legion and its supporters look anyone in the eye and claim not to glorify war?
> 
> Perhaps there are times when war is necessary and that may require men and women who are willing to go to war. But even if there is, doing that which is necessary is not necessarily heroic. There are such things as necessary evils. The white-poppy students are suggesting war isn’t one of them. It’s quite within the bounds of civilized discourse for students to suggest that there is nothing heroic about signing up to kill, being trained to kill, and then going and killing. This is not to dishonour the memory of the dead, but to rethink it. In this view, the dead soldier is not a hero. He’s a victim.
> 
> So I applaud Dufay and company for their stand. If we are to work for peace, we have to challenge our conventional thinking about war. That’s what education—and white poppies—are all about.
> 
> Todd Pettigrew is an associate professor of English at Cape Breton University.



I'm not going to comment on the stupidity of this post.

But I just wanted to know what Mr.Pettigrew meant by this?



> Oh, and no mention that the mighty Red Army of the Soviets didn’t seem so bad to us when we allied with it and turned half of Europe over to its brutal, oppressive regime.



I know the we were allied with the U.S.S.R, but turning half of Europe over to it?


----------



## x_para76

This post is again almost at the limit of frustration. I don't care if someone wants to promote peace through the symbol of a white poppy. However to do it on Remembrance Day and to try to take away from the solemnity of the day and the importance of it to so many of us is in such poor taste. If it wasn't exactly what these self righteous pricks wanted us to do I would happily fill them in.


----------



## George Wallace

And we wonder where our Education System is failing us:



> Todd Pettigrew is an associate professor of English at Cape Breton University.




Beyond words.


----------



## Emilio

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And we wonder where our Education System is failing us:
> 
> 
> Beyond words.



I have sent an email to CBUs student association in hopes on bringing his views to the attention of all the students. 

I'm holding out hope that the Mr.Pettigrews thoughts are shared by only a very small minority of people.


----------



## JorgSlice

I got into it with some idiot hippy wearing a surplus Navy jacket with trade and rank badges... Honestly, fighting it and this is a lost cause. They're already lost in their delusions.


----------



## George Wallace

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> I got into it with some idiot hippy wearing a surplus Navy jacket with trade and rank badges... Honestly, fighting it and this is a lost cause. They're already lost in their delusions.



 ;D

Due of course to the smoking the product of the White Poppy.

 >


----------



## JorgSlice

:rofl:


----------



## Strike

You know, it's not really the white poppy that gets to me.  The meaning behind it is simple enough - white denotes peace, the poppy denotes remembrance therefore the white poppy remembers the fallen and promotes peace focusing on bringing awareness to issues such as disarmament, those innocents affected, etc.

Now, if the people who are flogging the white poppy were to focus on their own campaign instead of bashing what they believe the red poppy stands for (glorifying war, romanticizing death, etc.) I don't think I would be as annoyed.  But I always have a hard time listening or giving any time to someone who's argument is based on solely bashing their opponent.


----------



## George Wallace

Strike said:
			
		

> You know, it's not really the white poppy that gets to me.  The meaning behind it is simple enough - white denotes peace, the poppy denotes remembrance therefore the white poppy remembers the fallen and promotes peace focusing on bringing awareness to issues such as disarmament, those innocents affected, etc.
> 
> Now, if the people who are flogging the white poppy were to focus on their own campaign instead of bashing what they believe the red poppy stands for (glorifying war, romanticizing death, etc.) I don't think I would be as annoyed.  But I always have a hard time listening or giving any time to someone who's argument is based on solely bashing their opponent.



Ah! Come on!.....You know deep down you just want to call them a bunch of dope smoking surrender monkeys.    >


----------



## Journeyman

I am _so_ trying not to care about this.........ok, in all honesty, I don't care.....

But I agree whole-heartedly:


			
				Strike said:
			
		

> I always have a hard time listening or giving any time to someone who's argument is based on solely bashing their opponent.



Let the sheeple bleat   :boring:



(Yes, that includes you folks whose 'informed' argument doesn't get past "we should just punch them in the face and crush their white poppies")


----------



## George Wallace

Here is an interesting read:  http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/08/brett-wilson-white-poppy_n_4243009.html

Calgary millionaire and former dragon in CBC's Dragon's Den, W. Brett Wilson took to Twitter to defend the red poppy and its significance with this tweet:



> To the @WhitePoppy movement - be clear - the #RedPoppy does not glorify war nor does the #YellowDaffodil glorify cancer. #RespectOurVeterans



Quite a valid point.  He follows up with a post in reply to one of the White Poppy crowd who contacted him:



> SO - I have challenged the white poppy movement - and now I have upset someone for calling the moron's behind the white poppy movement "morons" - here is my public response without identifying the person who challenged me privately - which is fine - I will respect her privacy - anyway - my response:
> 
> And to top if off - now I have offended someone who is upset that I am calling the morons morons - in the context that I am bullying them. Let me be clear - crystal clear - the actions of anyone seeking to undermine the Red Poppy as the ONE symbol of respect that I (and most) have for those who have served our country (including BOTH of my mom's brothers - one enlisted at the age of 16 - the other when he turned 18 - the latter retired as a soldier - one of my proudest moments was being at his funeral - and seeing the dignity and respect afforded a deceased soldier - but I digress) are moronic actions. And offensive. And stupid. And un-patriotic. And disturbing. And annoying. AND very very very MORONIC. Anything unclear about that? Any morons that are offended by being called morons best come to a local Remembrance Day ceremony - bring their moronic white poppies - and then wait to talk to a veteran - and explain why morons support white poppies. And now - I apologize for calling the white poppy supporters morons - for they are way below morons in my opinion. They are actually assholes. Or less.


----------



## George Wallace

Cute cartoon:


----------



## myself.only

Strike said:
			
		

> You know, it's not really the white poppy that gets to me.  The meaning behind it is simple enough - white denotes peace, the poppy denotes remembrance therefore the white poppy remembers the fallen  and promotes peace focusing on bringing awareness to issues such as disarmament, those innocents affected, etc.



If that were only true.
According to these white poppy folks, those who wear the red poppy glorify war, veterans are perpetrators who didn't sacrifice anything, they wilfully committed an act against peace, revelling in bloodlust. No different than the Nazis or Communists or Taliban that they fought against, there is nothing to salute and definitely nothing to hold a parade for.  
Remember the fallen?  If white poppy adherents do it's in a spirit akin to Phil Sheridan's (mis)quote on Indian fighting, and begins "the only good soldier..."

White poppy? No thanks.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And in the UK...  arseholes



> Fury after Lottery fund snubs Royal British Legion... but awards £95,000 to 'white poppy' conscientious objectors' scheme
> 
> Peace Pledge Union, which distributes controversial white poppies, was awarded a £95,800 grant for project to honour conscientious objectors
> It follows lottery fund’s refusal to fund a £92,200 Royal British Legion scheme to help children seed millions of poppies
> 
> By Nick Fagge
> 
> PUBLISHED: 01:13 GMT, 9 November 2013
> 
> War veterans condemned the Heritage Lottery Fund yesterday for funding pacifists while refusing to support a school poppy project.  The Peace Pledge Union, which distributes controversial white poppies, was awarded a £95,800 grant for a project to honour  conscientious objectors.  It follows the lottery fund’s refusal to fund a £92,200 Royal British Legion scheme to help children seed millions of poppies.  They were intended to flower in honour of Britain’s fallen servicemen during next year’s First World War centenary commemorations.
> 
> Graham Mentor-Morris, a former Royal Artilleryman who submitted the lottery bid for the legion’s Greenhithe and Swanscombe branch in Kent, condemned the lottery decision as ‘incredibly wrong’.  ‘Some 16 million people died in the First World War and they are not being respected,’ said Mr Mentor-Morris, 58, who served in the Falklands and Northern Ireland.
> 
> ‘I feel there was a genuine lack of understanding and respect from the Heritage Lottery Fund. They failed to see the bigger picture.  ‘The campaign that we tried to seek funding for would have involved people from all walks of life, from children as young as three to people as old as 103.   ‘I don’t want to sound bitter, but if you look at the Heritage Lottery Fund they support the trendy things.’
> 
> Simon Weston, the Welsh Guardsman badly burned in the Falklands War, said he found the decisions hard to reconcile.  ‘Why is remembering conscientious objectors any more worthy than teaching school children about World War I?’ he said.  ‘People have died to let these people [pacifists] have the rights and freedoms to hold these views.  ‘It seems that the smaller crowd gets the biggest voice. You can be in the majority and be ignored.’
> 
> The Peace Pledge Union was founded in 1935 and its members led anti-bombing campaigns during the Second World War.  Its ‘white poppy project’ is intended to honour the 16,000 conscientious objectors who refused to bear arms during the First World War. Many were jailed for their beliefs.  The project will include the production of new online materials, a range of school activities, public events and an exhibition.
> 
> The 2014 Real Poppy project, which has the backing of the Prime Minister and the Prince of Wales, will go ahead after DIY chain B&Q stepped in with the money.  The Heritage Lottery Fund said it had not been able to fund the seed project due to ‘high demand’.  Carole Souter, its chief executive, said: ‘It is disappointing that we were unable to support the Greenhithe and Swanscombe application for a Kent-based project to sow poppies across the county.  ‘Demand for our funds is high and we unfortunately cannot fund every application.’  A spokesman for the fund said it was committed to helping people learn about the First World War and has awarded more than £34million for projects marking the centenary.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2494153/Fury-Lottery-fund-snubs-Royal-British-Legion--awards-95-000-conscientious-objectors-fund.html#ixzz2kC5zrwUS
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2494153/Fury-Lottery-fund-snubs-Royal-British-Legion--awards-95-000-conscientious-objectors-fund.html#ixzz2kC5TaANO
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## a_majoor

The Heritage Lotterey's leadership is doing the same thing as the "White Poppy" campaign here in Canada, but since they have actual control of funds they can be much more brazen about their ability to exert power and control. As posted in the "Deconstructing Progressive Thought" thread, this is an extention of the same thinking behind the local Arts Council: http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/64647/post-1245852.html#msg1245852



> But that’s the whole point of the Arts Council - to circumvent the preferences of the public and how they’d spend their own money voluntarily.



Of course, given the history of Marxist infiltration of British institutions since the 1930's, this could also be a direct extension of the Communist Party's "White Poppy" campaign. Regardless of the motivation, this is attempting to attack a public institution and insert their own preferred narrative in its place.


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/11/08/brett-wilson-white-poppy_n_4243009.html
> 
> 
> And now - I apologize for calling the white poppy supporters morons - for they are way below morons in my opinion. They are actually assholes. Or less.


    :rofl:    Love it.



(...and no, I still can't too worked up about the whole thing; I just thought it was funny)


----------



## Vanguard48

Ah where to begin. My opinion on the White Poppy. Please take it or disregard as you freely choose to do so. 

Honestly its a huge slap in the face to the veterans and the very idea of Remembrance Day. No political correctness or debating needed, its just plain stupidity.

It takes a whole lot of retardation to come up with the notion to start campaigning this slop right around Remembrance Day, these so called "Students" and I use the quotations lightly are the product of moronic and over the top ignorance towards Canada and are feeling o so self righteous about it. The real kicker was when they quoted "We can't account for other people's feelings, however, no one has a monopoly over Remembrance Day," he said. Are you kidding me.  

But I digress, the white poppy is just a symbol sure, but what lies behind it and its idea is what frustrates the frack out of me. 

To them and all others who decide to support the White poppy and its idealism they should take a lovely trip to Syria. I hear its wonderful this time of year. 

Thus ends my rant, I think it's time for more coffee now.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Slightly  ff topic: but ...

Today's _Globe and Mail_ reports that in Chilliwack, BC, "when it is time for Mark Strahl, the local Conservative MP, to lay a wreath, Mr. Latulippe and other veterans will face away [because] veterans, he said, want to turn their backs on the Conservative government “just like the Conservatives are turning their backs on veterans.”"

I sympathize. I have been quite vocal about the New Veterans' Charter and why it is immoral to balance the budget on the backs of men and women who have been grievously injured while serving our country.

But: the Government of Canada, not the Conservative Party of Canada, is, formally, acknowledging the supreme sacrifice which was made by nearly 120,000 Canadians and turning his back on Mr Strahl will only prove that Mr Latulippe, a retired Air Force captain, has bad manners and, despite his long service and many medals, is ignorant about the significance of the day.






Claude Latulippe plans to turn his back when Conservative MP Mark Stahl lays a wreath at the
Chilliwack War memorial.
                                                                                              (John Lehmann/The Globe and Mail)


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## Kat Stevens

I posted this on Facebook originally (yes, I know, FB is evil, blah blah), but I just want to add it to these proceedings;


I really need to get this out, unpopular as it may be. There has been a trend the last few years to turn Remembrance Day into some kind of veterans day. It isn't. It's about all the ones we left on far off fields who never got the chance to be a veteran. We thank our veterans, but we REMEMBER our dead. At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.

Stand easy, all the brothers and sisters we have lost.


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## pbi

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But: the Government of Canada, not the Conservative Party of Canada, is, formally, acknowledging the supreme sacrifice which was made by nearly 120,000 Canadians and turning his back on Mr Strahl will only prove that Mr Latulippe, a retired Air Force captain, has bad manners and, despite his long service and many medals, is ignorant about the significance of the day.



I agree 100%, and I felt the same way about the vets who, a few years ago at the National Service, rudely turned their backs on Mme Jean, the GG. IMHO, these folks are indulging in exactly the same thing we are accusing the White Poppy crowd of doing: politicizing Remembrance Day.

We can't have two rules. Either it is a day for respectful, non-partisan mourning of sacrifice, or it isn't. For everybody.


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## PMedMoe

My niece just posted this on FB.  Seems appropriate.

"For far too many, no long life ahead, free of struggle and pain and the gun
And we must remember the price that was paid, by each and every one
Regardless of views, opinions aside, no matter how each of us sees it
They were there and I cannot forget, even though I did not live it"


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## x_para76




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## Brad Sallows

Time for me to weigh in with my customary narrow-minded curmudgeonly unyielding extremist uncharitable intolerant grating opinion, but as ERC stated it and other have expressed and paraphrased:

"That's all it is about: not war, not veterans, not the military: just the dead and remembering "those," as Wilfred Owen put it "who die as cattle.""

Remembrance Day and the red poppy solely concern a debt of remembrance to those who died serving in war, and to honour them by living justly and peacefully as they cannot.

I went to the main service in Vancouver today for the first time in years (I've been going to ceremonies in smaller centres, which have refreshingly less political baggage), and found myself in disagreement with some of the sentiments expressed from the platform.  The occasion is not to show gratitude to all veterans, or serving members, or people who work for emergency services, or to acknowledge particular people or communities, or to lament other shortcomings and make vague politically correct noises.

As for the activists, it is also not to glorify or promote or excuse anything resembling war, militarism, or jingoism.  If they wish to choose for themselves another icon and define what it means, they can be as solemn or as ridiculous as they choose.  But they do not get to redefine or expand upon or reinterpret what Remembrance Day and the red poppy signify.


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## pbi

:goodpost:


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## Journeyman

Reprinted from yesterday's 





Complete article at LINK  (National Post copyright)



> *Schultz & Weier: Why we wear poppies, both red and white*
> 
> Christopher Schultz and Jonathan Weier, National Post | 11/11/13
> 
> .....
> It is generally accepted that the red poppy was first promoted by Moina Michael (an American) and Anna Guerin (a Frenchwoman), two female volunteers with the YMCA during the First World War. Meeting at a YMCA conference in New York City, 1918, and inspired by John McCrae’s poem In Flanders Fields, they decided to encourage wearing a red poppy as a symbol of remembrance for those who were killed in the war.
> 
> The optimism of the 1920s would prove a cruel hoax, however, producing the white poppy in its wake. The Stock Market Crash of 1929 plunged countries around the world into the Great Depression. The resultant shock rippled across the political spectrum, resulting in ever hardening lines between the political left and right. Pacifists, leftists themselves by and large but also veterans and prominent members of mainstream churches, looked upon these events despairingly, seeing the seeds of global conflict once again being sown. Militarism, violence and revolution were becoming common. The white poppy became a symbol of the total renunciation of war, *to be worn alongside the red poppy* as a reminder of the desire for enduring peace and using peaceful means to resolve disputes.
> 
> The original idea behind the pacifist poppy in 1926, a product of the No More War Movement in England, was simple enough: place a pin at the centre of the red poppy stating “No More War,” replacing “Haig Fund” (the British Legion’s fundraising appeal, named after British Field Marshall Sir Douglas Haig). Failing that, white poppies would be distributed alongside the Legion’s reds.
> 
> The white poppy became a symbol of the pacifist left, and has been distributed for Remembrance Day by the PPU in the United Kingdom every year since.



Complete article at LINK


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## Ice97

My  :2c:....just cause I can

I think the thing with the White Poppy is that it is almost like they were looking for negative attention.  Makes no sense to me....but I don't know how to explain it.  I live in Ottawa...yet I did not see anyone wearing a White Poppy before Remembrance Day...or even on Remembrance Day.  I don't think that the White Poppy itself is disrespectful....but their reasoning behind wearing it (Cause the Red Poppy glorifies War) shows how highly misinformed they are.  

Don't know what else to add to this other than my 7 year old kid knows more behind the meaning of the Red Poppy and Remembrance Day then these University students do


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## AirDet

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We all are of the same convictions.  It is an insult to the Vets and those that serve, but a Right that our service has guaranteed them.  I think that if you seriously were to start to pull white poppies off these 'confused' twits, you would find that there would be a 'Barrack room Lawyer' in that crowd just waiting to charge you with "ASSAULT".



I suppose it's fortunate that I didn't see any of these cowardly and insulting symbols.


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## Fishbone Jones

AirDet said:
			
		

> I suppose it's fortunate that I didn't see any of these cowardly and insulting symbols.



I just prefer to let people like that revel in their own ignorance. It's simply not worth my while to try convince such misguided souls.

After all, freedom of choice is one of the great things that the people remembered on this day fought and died for.


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