# New CIC training system?



## catalyst (24 Sep 2004)

Just wondering if any of our resident CIC officers know anything about new training courses or training systems for the CIC? I read that someplace...I also heard BOQ was going to change and become BOTC (I think - this is heresy, please don't quote me)


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## Inch (24 Sep 2004)

BOTC is Basic Officer Training Course, that's what Reg force officers used to take, they recently changed the names.  I doubt it's BOTC, BOTC was 14 weeks. 

Cheers


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## catalyst (24 Sep 2004)

Yes, I know the name didn't seem right...


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## Inch (24 Sep 2004)

Maybe they're recycling the name.


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## THEARMYGUY (24 Sep 2004)

Yes the CIC is getting a new training system.  The programme is being changed and a new "REAL" MOC is going to provide the CIC with more military training.  This is what I have been told by my CO.  There are also articles in the spring/summer edition of Cadence(magazine for CIC and CI's).  The CIC is also to have a more active roll and be more informed about what is going on with the military as a whole.  More to follow.  I'll let you all know when I find out.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy


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## Nobby (25 Sep 2004)

This seems like it is just a littel history repeating itself. Once upon a time (1970's) CIC (back then CIL) officers took a BOTC course. It makes some sense in some areas, and not in others.


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## sgt_mandal (26 Sep 2004)

This would be for all elements right? (I know it's a dumb question, but just checking)


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## THEARMYGUY (30 Sep 2004)

sgt_mandal said:
			
		

> This would be for all elements right? (I know it's a dumb question, but just checking)



I would have to say yes.  All CIC training other than MOC or JOLC is conducted at RCIS with all elements usually present.  This is not written in stone.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy


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## big_castor (1 Oct 2004)

sgt_mandal said:
			
		

> This would be for all elements right? (I know it's a dumb question, but just checking)



Absolutely.  The new training courses will have some elemental training and some courses will only be available to some elements but the system will be basically the same for everyone (much as it is right now)


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## Thompson_JM (7 Oct 2004)

The Army Guy said:
			
		

> Yes the CIC is getting a new training system.   The programme is being changed and a new "REAL" MOC is going to provide the CIC with more military training.   This is what I have been told by my CO.   There are also articles in the spring/summer edition of Cadence(magazine for CIC and CI's).   The CIC is also to have a more active roll and be more informed about what is going on with the military as a whole.   More to follow.   I'll let you all know when I find out.
> 
> Cheers!!
> 
> The Army Guy



As a Reservist all I can say is thank God.. its about time the CIC were given better training.. especially from a military standpoint.. having worked along side alot of CIC's this summer I can say that there were definatley a few who were simply outstanding individuals, however the majority of them were underexpericed, "chip on their shoulder, glorified camp councillors... there was certainly a severe lack of discipline all accross the camp, and sadly alot of it was top down. the "officers" were undiciplined and poorly organized displaying very unprofessional conduct, in many cases right in front of their cadets and staff...  

now, to set the record straight. I am not biased against all CIC. I know some excellent ones, and Im sure there are quite a few who are shining examples of how the cadet movment should be run... but if could make one recomendation in regards to CIC training.. please put a little more drill and discipline into it... 

thank you, and best of luck implementing the new changes


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## foerestedwarrior (7 Oct 2004)

From my experiance, CIC officers used to get real training, way back when i was in Air Cadets, my first two CO's both had taken PRes officer cources(i dont know what MOC), they were effective officers. Being down in Blackdown a few times this summer and seeing alot of innefective officers, who i later asked about their training said they did a weekend course. and it wasnt very many weekend's. I work at RCSU(c), I will see what i can find out a new training system.


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## THEARMYGUY (7 Oct 2004)

Update....  Looks like after the Commanding Officers conference last weekend the new training schedule should begin in the next year or so.  Along with a PT standard tested on a regular basis, an MOC trade number is to be given to the CIC.  The CO also told me that the old CIC courses taught at RCIS will be changed to new courses that are rank and element specific.  There will also be new courses for specific unit duties ( ie.. stores, admin and training officer courses).  This is what I know so far.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy


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## sgt_mandal (7 Oct 2004)

wow, sounds promising


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## Lt Smash (3 Nov 2004)

Alright...this is the new CIC trg prog chart...the last one I received anyways...it is always being modified...as this is the second one I have seen and it is already different from the last.

BOTC 1 
12 In class days and 2 Distance Learning - deals with skills and knowledge realted to the CF
BOTC 2
4 In class and 1 Distance Learning - Knowledge and skills related to being in the CIC
Both replace the BOQ

ENVIR
8 in class and 1 Distance learning
SUP O
2 distance learning
ADMIN O
2 distance learning 
THeses allow for further refinement and experience for learning

JOL, TRG O and COC 
no days listed as of yet...possibilty of ammending these courses further

Hope this helps

Cheers


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## big_castor (5 Nov 2004)

The latest issue of Cadence has an article :

http://www.cadets.forces.gc.ca/_docs/cadence/2004-2/PDF/CIC_training_e.pdf


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## qjdb (8 Nov 2004)

Looks to me like the same kind of stuff that I did on my MOC in June.

Doesn't look all that different from what is already happening.  Or were my instructors just ahead of the game?  I know that PacRegion is sort of a test case (we were also the first region to use the Distance Learning for the AdminO course (I took the first one)), maybe that's why this doesn't look that radical.

Methinks that this is so that all regions are doing the same training?  I had heard that there were quite a bit of differences between CIC members back East and out here in the West, maybe this is a fix for that?

Cheers

Quentin


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## THEARMYGUY (8 Nov 2004)

qjdb said:
			
		

> Looks to me like the same kind of stuff that I did on my MOC in June.
> 
> Doesn't look all that different from what is already happening. Or were my instructors just ahead of the game? I know that PacRegion is sort of a test case (we were also the first region to use the Distance Learning for the AdminO course (I took the first one)), maybe that's why this doesn't look that radical.
> 
> ...




As stated by Squadron CO, the article in the latest Cadence magazine states that there will be a working in period where some candidates will take the courses to evaluate course effectiveness before implementation.  It looks like you may have been one of the Guinea pigs.  No offense.  I hope that the programme changes for the better.  I'm not really sure what happened to the Captain Qual. crse though??  As I am an Lt. this is of some concern to me.  I would like to take it if it's still avail. however the new system may require time in rank along with specific support crses to obtain the rank of Capt.  I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy :warstory:


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## big_castor (11 Nov 2004)

qjdb said:
			
		

> Doesn't look all that different from what is already happening.   Or were my instructors just ahead of the game?   I know that PacRegion is sort of a test case (we were also the first region to use the Distance Learning for the AdminO course (I took the first one)), maybe that's why this doesn't look that radical.



The real test trials for the courses haven't begun yet.   The Standards Officer from RCIS(E) just came back from a meeting in Trenton and the latest news is that there isn't even a consensus right now on the length of the courses so where still far from trial and full implementation.



			
				qjdb said:
			
		

> Methinks that this is so that all regions are doing the same training?   I had heard that there were quite a bit of differences between CIC members back East and out here in the West, maybe this is a fix for that?



The organisation of each RCIS   is different.   Pac has a small staff of permanent instructors, while Eastern hires people on class A for each course.   From my experience, the training philosophy also differs quite a bit form Region to Region but essentially WHAT is taught is the same, HOW it's taught might t be quite different.



			
				The Army Guy said:
			
		

> I'm not really sure what happened to the Captain Qual. crse though??   As I am an Lt. this is of some concern to me.   I would like to take it if it's still avail. however the new system may require time in rank along with specific support crses to obtain the rank of Capt.   I guess I'll find out soon enough.



The current courses will remain until the new ones have been trialed, corrected and fully implemented.   We'll have a couple more CQ running until that time.   From what I know, the time in rank will increase from what it is right now in the new system, but there will not be the equivalent of a LTQ or CQ.


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## j.babin (16 Nov 2004)

I did the "new" Captain Qualification course and it seemed watered down - most of us were bored.


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## big_castor (16 Nov 2004)

j.babin said:
			
		

> I did the "new" Captain Qualification course and it seemed watered down - most of us were bored.



There are no "new" courses being conducted right now and no recent major revisions of the course standards.


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## j.babin (17 Nov 2004)

I did the course in June of 03 in the Atlantic Region and yes it was very much so a new course That course was differnet from the course that had been done the year before and was introduced by the Commandant of RCIS as a revised course.


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## big_castor (18 Nov 2004)

National assessment forms and exams where introduced recently, which did have a minor impact on how certain PO's where taught and/or assessed.  But the basic content (and the actuall course standards) have not changed.


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick (28 Nov 2004)

what does CIC training include anyways? ???


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## primer (28 Nov 2004)

I have talk to the man at D- CDTS last week at a mess dinner here in Ottawa, He said there will be alot of new changes to improve the CCM.

I think it will be a WATCH AND SHOOT but we well see 

Has any of my fellow Officers seen or read the findings of the  questionair that we filled out a few years back. Thats were the new changes are comming from. 

Were can I find a copy of the findings 

Thanks


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## Ltmel (22 Feb 2005)

yes, the results from that survey are published on cadetnet somewhere....I'll check.


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## PViddy (26 Feb 2005)

A very interesting read, i had been through it when we got our copies of cadence at my unit, but iy replenishes interest and curiosity.  The new system sounds good so far, however being on BOQ currently, i may be caught in the middle of the two systems.  I hope they still keep Abseil qual. open to air.

PV


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## Docherty (26 Feb 2005)

I like the idea of a more military BOQ. I was talking with my CO about it, and a week for BOQ isn't long enough. How can you produce a leader in one week. 3 weeks is a lot more reasonable. Especially when they will eventually get the same Commission as Res. and Reg Force Officers.


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## primer (26 Feb 2005)

[quote  Especially when they will eventually get the same Commission as Res. and Reg Force Officers.

We were Res Officer Cadets as CIC officers


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## PViddy (26 Feb 2005)

> I like the idea of a more military BOQ



I agree.  As an ex cadet, as with many ex cadets i am sure,  wish The BOQ course was more challenging at times, or more...militarized.  I think it all comes down to budget when lengthening courses.  RCIS's will probably need more money, unless as stated they make a great deal of the courses corespondance.

I also think more time in rank would be a good idea, with greater relevancy to time spent in rank according to Reg force standards.  Possibly 2Lt. for 2 years and Lt. for two years minimum instead of the current system (1 year minimum).


PV


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## Inch (26 Feb 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> I also think more time in rank would be a good idea, with greater relevancy to time spent in rank according to Reg force standards.   Possibly 2Lt. for 2 years and Lt. for two years minimum instead of the current system (1 year minimum).



Reg force is one year as a 2Lt and two years as an Lt in most cases, there's always exceptions of course. The caveat to that is that you must be MOC qualified prior to being promoted to Lt. 

To to put that in a little perspective though, we're 2Lts for around 220 working days (not including weekends, stats, short, special, or annual leave). I know that wouldn't work though since you guys don't aren't in uniform that often in a year.


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## ciccapt (28 Feb 2005)

I have been told by a very reliable source at RCIS(C) that in addition to the changes detailed in the Cadence article that the RCIS organization is going to be revised as well, insofar that there will be a national RCIS Commandant and organization in order to eliminate the radical differences in the way that training is being delivered in different regions.
All of these changes are welcome, and long overdue in my opinion.


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## PViddy (28 Feb 2005)

Agreed.  The training i have received in central region so far has been great, but the question begs to be answered- am i missing out on anything or is anybody else in other parts of the country ? standardization would make most sense.

PV


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## primer (1 Mar 2005)

The only thing you might be missing out on would be the OLD BOYS CLUB with in the school. :threat: I cant wait till RCIS (C) gets the shake up it will be for the better.


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## Ltmel (1 Mar 2005)

I am so glad to here someone else say that!  No more empire?  Fantastic.


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## Acer Syrup (9 Feb 2008)

So, three years later since the last post. I am interested in joining the CIC soon, has anything changed? I noticed that BOTC is still in the trial phase.


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2008)

I havn't been on course since last year, however from what i understand the new BOTC is already being implemented (but perhaps somone else can elaborate).  The last course i was on was CWIC and i was told that we were the last intake under the current structure, and a new one would be online this year.  The gist is, yes things are changing as we speak.

cheers,

PV


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## Acer Syrup (10 Feb 2008)

I had that impression, but then became unsure when they have been talking about for 3 yrs at least.


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## PViddy (10 Feb 2008)

Yep, it's in the works.  I am sure you can appreciate that changes, nationally, can't just happen over night.  I would suspect that it still varies by region and will for another few years.

PV


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## catalyst (10 Feb 2008)

The trial BOTC was run last May/June. The trial MOC courses are being run in june - the Sea Environmental Course being run at RCIS Pac  8), the Air at St Jean and the Land at RCIS Central. 

I 'm not sure the date of implimentation of the BOTC/OCC courses - I have heard September but I haven't seen anything to confirm it.  The AdminO and SupO courses are now done online via DL, as is a section of the Commanding Officer Course as well as the Environmental Courses (and BOTC/OCC). 

BOQ has been made into two courses - BOTC and OCC which is the CIC specialization course. 

I liked BOQ. I wish I could have been on BOTC/OCC. 

I'm glad that the training systems are being updated - there's a lot of "drugery" in them.


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## Acer Syrup (10 Feb 2008)

Would almost be smart to hang on and wait for BOTC/OCC to start. I am just starting the application process now. So I bet september wouldn't be that long of a wait.


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## mysteriousmind (10 Feb 2008)

CIC are not a priorities...i can take a big amount of time to treat your file....don't think it will be done as fast as you are thinking...mine took 14 month back in 1998


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## catalyst (10 Feb 2008)

Mine took three years and three times to get it past the  RCSU level (long story) buit once the CF took over it was pretty swift. Just keep on your RCSU once you've submitted it to see where the progress is. What region? 

Best is to get trained whenever you have the ability.


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## Acer Syrup (10 Feb 2008)

PAC Region. I have heard a anything from 2 months to 3 years. I think if all the ducks are in a row it will be ok. My CO really wants to push it too.


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## mysteriousmind (11 Feb 2008)

without disrespect...your CO wont change a thing in the balance...

Start your application soon and you can always turn down a course if it goes fast and you do not want to start you course now.

freindly advice


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## Acer Syrup (27 May 2008)

Yep, done application stage now, waiting to hear back from RCSU should be done mid june/july. Sounds like if I get to take training soon, I will be on the last BOQ course ever at RCIS (Pac) in october.


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## D. Nicholson (9 Jun 2008)

I am certain it's not September; there were some issues identified after the trial courses for BOTC and OCC that will require a new trial being done - that is the gossip as of last month at least  ;D

http://www.cadets.net/pac/rcis/FileLinks/08-09TrgSchedule.pdf


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## catalyst (9 Jun 2008)

Another trial?

wow.


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## PViddy (9 Jun 2008)

Again, this may vary by region but ya, if they discovered that changes need to be implemented, it may be back to the drawing board so to speak.

cheers

PV


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## Acer Syrup (9 Jun 2008)

I only assumed that I would be on the last BOQ course in October because of the regional event calander. Who knows which one is right. Hopefully I don't get ropped into the new trial. Wrong element for RCIS (pac) keeping fingers crossed. How bad could they mess it up......... hmmm let me think. Not going to answer that pending my enrollment. Which I am happy to say is coming to an end. Finished all the hoops at CFRC, just waiting for one of the security checks to clear and then good to go. Hopefully somebody lets me know. My CO is in Vernon now.

http://www.cadets.net/pac/cal/Default.asp?Cat=*CIC%20Training


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## D. Nicholson (12 Jun 2008)

PViddy said:
			
		

> Again, this may vary by region but ya, if they discovered that changes need to be implemented, it may be back to the drawing board so to speak.
> 
> cheers
> 
> PV



BOTC is a nationally mandated course, without a syllabus it cannot run, right now, there is no syllabus.


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## PViddy (12 Jun 2008)

> BOTC is a nationally mandated course, without a syllabus it cannot run, right now, there is no syllabus.



???

BOQ or BOTC is a training requirement in the CIC yes, but how courses are run, when they are run and what is taught is, at the current time, decided by each region.  That is the whole point of all the new courses, is standardized training in every region so that all BOTC's contain the same curriculum.

cheers

PV


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