# Paid Physical Fitness Time?



## Mango

Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?


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## RedcapCrusader

Mango said:
			
		

> Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?



From what I've witnessed while working at a CBG HQ, yes.


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## PuckChaser

Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time, that pt hour could be done as a group.


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## McG

Mango said:
			
		

> Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?


Routine varies from unit to unit.  Don't expect the work day to be 8 to 4 with PT the first hour every day.  Days could start earlier and/or run later.  PT may be scheduled first thing in the day, it may be last thing of the day, it could be both, or it may be up to you to find time.  Your schedule may even change depending on the day of the week.


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## mariomike

Mango said:
			
		

> Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?



CF Members and time alloted for PT  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/99903.0;nowap
5 pages.

"I was under the understanding that we were entitled to one hour a day equalling 5 hours a week."

PT Time Taken Away
http://army.ca/forums/threads/77440.0/nowap.html


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## molsonman

Depends on the unit.

When I was with a 1st line army unit PT was 5 days a week. It was always a group run 4 times a week and sports afternoon 1 time a week. I have been with units that had group PT 3 times a week. Right now I have PT 3 times a week but it is whatever I feel like doing.


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## Al101

In all sincere honesty, I'd love to ask a follow-up question to this, because I am seriously not understanding it.

What I do understand is that in the regular work day hours, you'll do PT. But then, for example, you have Puckchaser saying "Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time".

I am confused. Does this mean you can't do your PT alone DURING the work hours, or AFTER the work hours when you're done? And if it IS after the work hours... Where is the logic in that, because I really don't see it.


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## dangerboy

Al101 said:
			
		

> In all sincere honesty, I'd love to ask a follow-up question to this, because I am seriously not understanding it.
> 
> What I do understand is that in the regular work day hours, you'll do PT. But then, for example, you have Puckchaser saying "Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time".
> 
> I am confused. Does this mean you can't do your PT alone DURING the work hours, or AFTER the work hours when you're done? And if it IS after the work hours... Where is the logic in that, because I really don't see it.



Depending on the unit, you may do organized PT during the day (working hours) and will not be able to do your own training you have to do it with your group.  If it is after hours you can do PT on your own.  A lot of people do both, the organized PT with the group during working hours then after work or during lunch do their own PT.


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## Lumber

Mango said:
			
		

> Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?



Every unit is different.

In Halifax, we have many independent units (8+ ships in port, CFNOS, CFNES, CSOR, FMF, etc.). While everyone is entitled to 1 hour of PT a day, what actually occured varied widely; the constant though, was it all depended on the Command team (CO, XO, Coxn) and how much importance they placed on PT (much less operationally important in the Navy then in the Army).

When your a ship that is going to sea fairly often, your time spent alongside is usually busy. There is a ton of maintenance, planning, and training that happens in between sails, and they often take precendence over PT. When you're not sailing often, you're not as busy, and PT seems to happen more often.

When my ship was in refit and our ship's company was in shore office, we started doing group PT 3 days a week, and increased that to 5 days a week. What we did varied significantly; for the most part it was 40% running, 40% circuit trg, and 10% individual or sports PT. While these sessions were mandatory, work/projects/deadlines always took priority over PT. Our XO was really big into fitness and would have seniors NCOs scour the shore office to make sure no one was skipping out unless they had a good reason. 

Once we got our ship back, PT pretty much decreased to an almost-never level. I don't know how it works in the Army or AF, but in the Navy, I've never seen any unit start the work day earlier than normal in order to condcut PT, and we had some very busy work days in the few months after we got the ship back. While we maintained mandatory PT 3 times  week, it wasn't uncommon for only 25 ish ppl to show up (out of a ship's company of ~125). 

One observation I've seen from the Navy that I think contrasts witht he Army (although this is an assumption because I've never worked with the Army), is that the Navy seems to do a shittier job of leading by example, at least when it come to PT. As I mentioned earlier, work always took priority over PT. The result of this is that PO2s/Lt(N) and above were absent from PT far more than MS/SLt and below. Once our ship got back into the sea-going routine and was sailing every other week, PT seemed to only be made up of junior officers and NCMs; everyone else was doing paper-work or routine maitenance.


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## ModlrMike

Lumber said:
			
		

> As I mentioned earlier, work always took priority over PT.



There's your problem right there. We're in the Service. PT is work.


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## Lumber

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> There's your problem right there. We're in the Service. PT is work.



When it's a few weeks before Work-Ups starts, and you're swamped creating pre-firing briefs and mission briefs, drafting firing orders, OCS Intentions Messages and Request for Service Support Messages, coordinating with other ship's to sort out exercise timings, having your list of exercises changed by Sea Trg and having to re-do most of the above, conducting misfire drills and practicing voice procedure with your team, staying until 1800 already... When this is your work day, then PT is no longer high on your priority list.


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## ModlrMike

Lumber said:
			
		

> When it's a few weeks before Work-Ups starts, and you're swamped creating pre-firing briefs and mission briefs, drafting firing orders, OCS Intentions Messages and Request for Service Support Messages, coordinating with other ship's to sort out exercise timings, having your list of exercises changed by Sea Trg and having to re-do most of the above, conducting misfire drills and practicing voice procedure with your team, staying until 1800 already... When this is your work day, then PT is no longer high on your priority list.



I understand, and sympathize. What I mean to convey is that we need to get out of the mindset that PT is something separate from work. Read the CDS directive to commanders. It's pretty clear that his intent is that PT is work.


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## Lumber

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I understand, and sympathize. What I mean to convey is that we need to get out of the mindset that PT is something separate from work. Read the CDS directive to commanders. It's pretty clear that his intent is that PT is work.



Ah, my appologies. And I agree. While in the Navy we don't need to use physical strength and endurance to complete our tasks like the Army does, there are still massive benefits to being physically fit. Once thing we have to endure a lot in the Navy as part of our regular job is long period of getting little sleep, as well as working and sleeping on a platform that is constantly rocking. This leads to being tired all the time at best, and actually fatigued at the worst (not to mention sea-sick). Being physically fit better prepares you to deal with these hardships, as well as the emotional stresses that come with it. 

However, I don't know how it works in the army, but you'd have a mutiny on your hand if you tried to start work at 0700 vice 0800 in order to do PT...


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## Eye In The Sky

But the point isn't to make the normal duty day longer, it is to incorporate PT into the workday.


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## BinRat55

PT in the Army is part of the battle rhythm. My CO says we will do PT as a Sqn 2 days a week, as a Tp 2 days a week and as a regiment once a week. He says we will start at 0700, then we start at 0700. We will be back to work at 0930. If PT goes from 0700 to 0900, then it sucks to be us. Period. PT is (as stated above) about being healthy enough to handle our day-to-day duties (a healthy soldier I can put the **** to for over 24 hours straight in the field without injury. However, we need to afford our troops the training necessary to pass the FORCE test. This is what it comes down to IMO. If we just put PT on the back burner because we have jobs to do (which we all do i'm sure) and then say, oh - go pass that FORCE test... a disservice has been paid to our troops.

PT is unequivocally an everyday part of a soldiers like (or at least it SHOULD be). We are paid 24/7 so if your boss says "Lets do PT at 6AM" then guess what? Set your friggin alarm boys and girls. Oh, but it's stormy out? Wear a hat.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

No one is denying that "PT is part of the battle rhythm" for the Army. Lumber's point can be summarized in the following question: Is it part of the battle rhythm for the Navy?

And the answer is: No, it never has been. That is not to say that physical fitness is not important to the Navy or encouraged. Quite the contrary. But it says that  in the Navy, other than inter unit sports or similar "special" day (fleet regatta, for instance) it has always been considered something that is for the individual to do on his/her own, because work hours are otherwise required of more important matters.

And as you  say, BinRat, it is a matter of "battle rhythm". This rhythm for the Army is usually (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am [likely] wrong) to have two large exercises or "scheme" year. A summer one and a winter one, each of about two or three weeks duration. In between you are "in garrison" and concentrate on individual training and qualification or sub-team/team tactics training and doing maintenance on equipment. PT is part and parcel of this garrison life - always has been. 

But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.

Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.

So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.


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## Lumber

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> No one is denying that "PT is part of the battle rhythm" for the Army. Lumber's point can be summarized in the following question: Is it part of the battle rhythm for the Navy?
> 
> And the answer is: No, it never has been. That is not to say that physical fitness is not important to the Navy or encouraged. Quite the contrary. But it says that  in the Navy, other than inter unit sports or similar "special" day (fleet regatta, for instance) it has always been considered something that is for the individual to do on his/her own, because work hours are otherwise required of more important matters.
> 
> And as you  say, BinRat, it is a matter of "battle rhythm". This rhythm for the Army is usually (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am [likely] wrong) to have two large exercises or "scheme" year. A summer one and a winter one, each of about two or three weeks duration. In between you are "in garrison" and concentrate on individual training and qualification or sub-team/team tactics training and doing maintenance on equipment. PT is part and parcel of this garrison life - always has been.
> 
> But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.
> 
> Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.
> 
> So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.



 :goodpost:

What he ^ said.

As a 1-in-2 director, I worked 7 hours on, 7 hours off, 5 hours on, 5 hours off. The 5 hours off I used to carry out my staff and divisional duties. The 7 hours off was often cut short by mandatory briefings, supper at one end, breakfast at the other, and a shower (sometimes). So when the question came up, "Do I work out and get 4.5hrs sleep tonight, or not workout and get 5.5 hours of sleep today", I 90% of the time chose the latter.


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## BinRat55

Please don't take me the wrong way - I'm not arguing (I promise) I realize there are differences between all 3 elements, as you are correct in pointing out - the roles are completely different. I will be honest, I have never served on a ship or in a sea posting, but have had the pleasure of working along side outstanding sailors. Nothing but respect for what you guys do. I did misunderstand Lumber WRT the "Navy" connection - I am merely discussing the point of "Is PT done during working hours" and I say yes - it is. Even if it's done at 6PM when so ordered.

I can only imagine how difficult it would be to engage in a ship-wide PT while in the South Pacific...



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.



This is not true. As I alluded to earlier, we would start the day earlier and end later. I have completed work-up training where I (as a support trade) mounted the regiment onto the mission, participated in MLoC, coy, reg, bde PT daily and conducted BFT and FORCE testing. We have no choice - we MAKE time. These guys in the Army, they are very passionate about their PT (again, not that other elements are not) I have little experience with the Navy. On posting to my last Air base, I pulled out my rucksack and one of my Cpls feinted. 



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.
> 
> So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.



Again, I can't disagree with you on any of these points as I am not in my lane. My experience being army in units such as 2 Svc Bn / 1, 2, 3 RCR, 2 RCHA, 4 ESR, Afghanistan twice, Bosnia... PT for us has never been "put off" to get other things done - we learn how to manufacture time.


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## kratz

I like how the site allows for informed discussion between the elements on issues that affect us all.

OGB summed up shipboard routine easily and attempted his best to make a parallel comparison to an active army combat unit.

Despite routine operational needs in the navy or even air, I believe the CDS message to all leaders to allow for maximum time for fitness during working hours should be remembered. Too often during shore postings,  our (navy) previous expectations carried on and we allowed marginal 'important duties' to override the need to maintain PT.


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## Lumber

kratz said:
			
		

> Despite routine operational needs in the navy or even air, I believe the CDS message to all leaders to allow for maximum time for fitness during working hours  should be remembered. Too often during shore postings,  our (navy) previous expectations carried on and we allowed marginal 'important duties' to override the need to maintain PT.



I think this is where us Navy folk (I'm assuming you were Navy) are in discord with BinRat. I'm all for allowing, and even pushing PT during working hours (as much as I hate running more than anything, I was proud to finally run my first 10k after several month of 2-a-week mandatory runs). However, I really _really_ hate the idea of coming into work early to do PT. Yes yes yes, technically we are members of the CAF 24/7. I don't know how to explain it better, BinRat. Maybe OGBD can explain it better, it's just not part of our culture to come into work early for something like PT. We ask people to stay late to get work done (such as during work up preps), but we'd never ask people to stay late to do PT.


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## BinRat55

Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.

What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.

Just my opinion.


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## Humphrey Bogart

These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine.  

Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform.


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## Sf2

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H.



What is this sorcery you speak of?  Sorry....seldom to many units confirm to a uniform work schedule where everyone can get together for the group hug.  Where i work - everyone is on a unique shift.  My BLUF - I order my guys to do 5 hrs per week.  I trust that they do it.....they feel guilty when they don't - because i instil the criticality of it.


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## Eye In The Sky

Lumber said:
			
		

> I think this is where us Navy folk (I'm assuming you were Navy) are in discord with BinRat. I'm all for allowing, and even pushing PT during working hours (as much as I hate running more than anything, I was proud to finally run my first 10k after several month of 2-a-week mandatory runs). However, I really _really_ hate the idea of coming into work early to do PT. Yes yes yes, technically we are members of the CAF 24/7. I don't know how to explain it better, BinRat. Maybe OGBD can explain it better, it's just not part of our culture to come into work early for something like PT. We ask people to stay late to get work done (such as during work up preps), but we'd never ask people to stay late to do PT.



Why would you have to come in earlier to go PT?  I go to PT at 8am, or 11am, or 2pm, or whenever it suits the schedule I am on that day or week.  I sure as hell don't come in early or stay late to do PT, it is part of my work day.  Just like the CDS Guidance to COs and the DAODs say it supposed to be.


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## Eye In The Sky

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.



But again, there is no requirement to make the work day longer to fit in PT.  My PT time is during the work day.  



> What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.
> 
> Just my opinion.



Each unit is _supposed_ to publish what it's 'normal working/duty day' hours are.  Ours are found in our Sqn Orders.

This is the order/regulation that you do NOT want to be published or known or exist if you show up for work at 0805hrs and are told you are "AWOL".   ;D

units who do the thing you are talking about to make PT 'within' working hours will probably experience people who are pissed or and have low GAFF.  Whats the point in that?  Why punish people because of a CF-wide directive?


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## BinRat55

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine.
> 
> Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform.



My difficulty lies with attempting to ascertain wether or not you're being sarcastic... you make a few funny statements here, but some valid ones as well? I did preface my post with "I completely understand that with the three elements there are three different roles..." 

My desire is to have my troops pass the FORCE test and dismantle one more hurdle to promotion... not look like Clark Kent in uniform. Also, I am not the one "applying blanket policies" - the PT policy is CDS driven. I just wanted to weigh in on what "PT during working hours" was to me... in an ARMY environment...

If you think that the CDS and his policies rehysical training at not at your standards and you disagree, you have avenues to go down...


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## Eye In The Sky

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine.
> 
> Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform.



There are other benefits to having a healthy bunch of folks even if they aren't pop-up targets.  Better ability to handle stress, fight off infections, the list goes on.  In my work environment, fitter people (according to the Aeromedical SMEs) perform better at altitude, will use up their smoke bottle slower in the event of a fire, etc.

The top policies (CDS Guidance to COs, DAODs) are general enough to get the point across without using language that ties the hands of anyone or making it so everyone 'runs with a ruck on'.  While not perfect, they get the point across.  All that needs to happen now, is for people to start FOLLOWING them.


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## Pusser

The whole idea of CDS message was that we as an organization needed to support fitness activities better than we were at that point (remember that this CANFORGEN came out quite awhile ago).  I don't think there was ever any intent to increase the length of the work day.  Instead though, I think it was meant to encourage supervisors to not limit personal PT time to the lunch hour.  I also don't think it was fully aimed at operational front line units wrapped up in operational front line things.  In many ways I've always thought the Army had this one right as PT is an integral part of their daily routine in garrison.  As OGBD said though, it has never been part of the Navy routine in home port.  However, I firmly believe it should be.  I've always argued that there is a lot of the day wasted on board ships in home port.  I think if we were a bit more clever about it, we could find a little extra time for folks to get out for some exercise.  My personal favourite way to do it though is to "commutercise." One of the things I loved about living in Ottawa was that I lived 13-17km from my office (depending on what building I was working in), which is a good distance to bicycle to and from work everyday.  I would simply report for work a little later than normal when I bicycled.


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## BinRat55

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But again, there is no requirement to make the work day longer to fit in PT.  My PT time is during the work day.
> 
> Each unit is _supposed_ to publish what it's 'normal working/duty day' hours are.  Ours are found in our Sqn Orders.
> 
> This is the order/regulation that you do NOT want to be published or known or exist if you show up for work at 0805hrs and are told you are "AWOL".   ;D
> 
> units who do the thing you are talking about to make PT 'within' working hours will probably experience people who are pissed or and have low GAFF.  Whats the point in that?  Why punish people because of a CF-wide directive?



Agreed - our "battle rhythm" or "daily schedule" is also published in the SOs. It does include PT from 0710 - 0830. BUT...

I still feel the need to explain that the OP wanted to know what "regular working hours" were and was time permitted within to do physical maintenance on one's body. I submit that we have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no real way to answer this question. Every unit is different based on element, mandate, mission and even traditions.  The commonality is that wether we like it or not, we all do it. When we are told. 

I'm not Clark Kent in a uniform... I am Chuck Norris!!


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## Eye In The Sky

The DAODs and even the CDS Guidance to COs uses enough language that is somewhat general or vague, so that subordinate commanders at all levels have some leeway to 'make it happen'.  My experience at army units, HQs and TEs is that PT is easiest done 'in a group setting'.

In the airforce, my experience at least is PT is more of an 'individual' responsibility;  time is given/afforded to everyone, whether you take advantage of it or not is left for you to decide BUT you'd better pass your medical and your FORCE test when the time comes.  We just have way too many parts and people moving in different directions at different times to get every there at the same time BUT...having said that, last year my Sqn had organized Sqn PT last thing on Tues and Thurs afternoons.  If you weren't flying, in the box or at a medical or some other appointment you were expected to be there.  If there is a plane to launch or recover, well that still happens with the folks not involved going to Sqn PT.

That (IMO) is a CO of a rather busy flying Sqn making his _best effort _to follow the directives he has been given and how the CDS and the RCAF, etc want him to command his sqn.  "It won't be perfect but do the best you can."


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## Lumber

I do NOT need to work out every working day in order to pass the FORCE test. If I go for a nice hike on weekends (which is about all I've done in the past few months) I'm ready for the FORCE test. PT  should be about achieving  a level higher than the FORCE test,  because the FORCE test is not an obstacle.  :2c:


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## Eye In The Sky

It is for some people though.  That is the LCD for 'us' to use against those who waddle to the gym once a year for their (dreaded) PT test.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> There are other benefits to having a healthy bunch of folks even if they aren't pop-up targets.  Better ability to handle stress, fight off infections, the list goes on.  In my work environment, fitter people (according to the Aeromedical SMEs) perform better at altitude, will use up their smoke bottle slower in the event of a fire, etc.
> 
> The top policies (CDS Guidance to COs, DAODs) are general enough to get the point across without using language that ties the hands of anyone or making it so everyone 'runs with a ruck on'.  While not perfect, they get the point across.  All that needs to happen now, is for people to start FOLLOWING them.



I agree wholeheartedly with you.  The problem is that these blanket/general orders are vague to the point that they can essentially be ignored.  We've let the civilian work culture in Ottawa permeate down to the tactical level as far as PT is concerned in the military.

When my former CO showed up to the unit his first order was "PT will be from 8 to 10, everyone will do PT and nobody will be in their offices, the workday will still end at 1630 and we will not work longer, make it so!"

Some people grumbled but we got on with it and over the two years he was in command, the unit got a lot more fit and also a lot better overall.  

An organization that I think embodies the fitness culture we should emulate is the USMC.  Go to a Marine post and everyone from the Commanding General to the RMS Clerk is out doing PT, it's part of the battle rythm and you never see a fat marine in any trade.

We lose credibility instantly every time a soldier from another country sees a fat Canadian soldier.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Lumber said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> What he ^ said.
> 
> As a 1-in-2 director, I worked 7 hours on, 7 hours off, 5 hours on, 5 hours off. The 5 hours off I used to carry out my staff and divisional duties. The 7 hours off was often cut short by mandatory briefings, supper at one end, breakfast at the other, and a shower (sometimes). So when the question came up, "Do I work out and get 4.5hrs sleep tonight, or not workout and get 5.5 hours of sleep today", I 90% of the time chose the latter.



Also depends on the trade; for the technical side of the house, 730-4 is dedicated to supporting the fleet maintenance facility guys and ongoing work.  If they are doing double shifts or OT, that stretches out longer.

Really hard to do group PT because you can never get more then a few people off at once, but fully encourage people to go in drips and drabs as their schedule allows, and for a lot of us, that means lunchtime, and before/after work.  Occasionally we do group PT, but it's planned weeks out.

At sea, it's the same; people go when they are off watch as the schedule allows.  Sometimes if enough things are broken, you end up working off watch.  And depending on the ships' schedule, your 'off watch' time can consist of mandatory attendance at all kinds of lectures, drills, group training, etc, so it really all depends on the Ops tempo on what you can do.

Kind of a double edged sword though, as it's easier to work these long grinding schedules while your fit, but working the long grinding schedules doesn't really allow time for PT...

Navy culture is slowly shifting to people generally being fitter, the food being healthier etc, but still pretty difficult to make PT mandatory every day, do it in a group, and keep the ship actually able to go to sea while doing it all during normal working hours.  Really the most practical way for everyone to be able to exercise is to let people exercise when they can fit it in, provide lots of little nooks and crannies with some kind of exercise equipment, and encourage everyone to go whenever they can, with the odd group activity to build the team up.


----------



## BinRat55

Once again, I apologize in advance if anyone takes offence to this, however we are having a REALLY good discussion here... (note: Emphases mine...)

CDS Guidance to Commanding Officers : CANADIAN FORCES PHYSICAL FITNESS PROGRAM

2201.2 Key to attaining the high levels of physical fitness necessary for today’s deployed operations is a reaffirmation of a “culture of fitness” across our Canadian Forces. Although we currently benefit from outstanding fitness facilities, professional physical educators, health promotion staff, and well-researched programs, *recent fitness and health practices of many of our units and members leaves much to be desired.*

2201.4 Transforming the physical activity patterns of CF members and achieving the health benefits that are inherent in such changes will take some time. There are no short-term solutions that will produce a lasting impact. *However, to produce the desired effect, the active engagement of all CF leaders must begin immediately.* I expect my commanding officers to do what is required to enhance levels of fitness by contributing to fitness issue discussions and by actively supporting fitness policy decisions.

2202.2 Adding to that concern is the fact that the number of obese CF members increased between the 2000 and 2004 HLIS surveys. The 2004 version reported 22% of CF males and 13% of CF females who responded to the survey were obese. *81% of CF personnel reported their job requires little or no physical activity and so these people cannot depend on performing their regular duties to keep them fit.* 2202.3 The 2000 HLIS *also indicated that junior personnel in the CF lacked the motivation to maintain their fitness* and *senior personnel lacked the time.* This is a dangerous combination because the very folks who are supposed to be leading the troops by example aren’t playing this important role because they see themselves as too busy. The 2004 HLIS showed that 75% of CF members recognize that starting to exercise or increasing the amount they exercise will improve their overall health. Therefore, individual motivation levels may be on the rise and we now have the organizational responsibility to convert that motivation into action. _*Those of us in senior leadership positions need to demonstrate an unshakable will to correct identified fitness shortcomings within our units.*_

2203.5 These fundamental concepts are supported by the following selection of fitness guidelines to establishing a culture of fitness:
a. It is *imperative* that the requirement for fitness training a_*t least five times a week is respected and applied*_. As Commanding Officers you will be in a
position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.
b. Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. *The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated.* Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
c. Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.
d. Commanding officers’ active involvement in fitness programs and their visible success on fitness evaluations is critical to convincing the CF member that physical fitness is a shared value in the organization.
e. *A group fitness programs approach is preferred.* Although the merits of individual programs are well known, where possible consider training as a group to derive the benefits of esprit de corps, control, and monitoring.
f. A group/unit fitness evaluations approach is required. Doing your evaluations as a group/unit has the potential to motivate higher levels of fitness achievement and reduce administration.
g. Don’t focus the entire fitness programs on making the fitness standard but rather emphasize the additional health benefits of living a positive lifestyle.
Simple adherence to a minimum physical fitness standard is only a building block in a systematic approach to effecting cultural change.
h. Seek variety and progression in fitness training programs employing cross training where possible.
i. Continuous education of staff, leadership and personnel on a healthy lifestyle and fitness practices as well as how to exercise safely is imperative. Consult
with	local PSP fitness staff for assistance.
j. Do not turn a blind eye to obesity. Obesity is a valid indicator of current or developing health problems. We have solid evidence-based weight loss programs in the CF, the utilization of which will benefit both our operational
readiness and the health of the CF member.

OMG and there is SOOOO much more. I honestly have a hard time arguing with directives... especially ones that come from my CDS...
k. Partner with the available professional organizations and capitalize on their programs. The Canadian Forces Personnel Support Agency’s (CFPSA) Personnel Support Program (PSP) and the Directorate of Force Health Protection’s (DFHP) Strengthening the Forces program have specifically been put in to place to help service your fitness, health and wellness need


----------



## cld617

I would get looked at like I had horns if I tried to convince my CoC of the 5x a week program, and their exact response would be “fitness on your own time”. The only people in my CoC I see who actually do get the time to do this are mon-fri officers, who are generally healthier and more fitness oriented than the Sgt/WO's in the RCAF. The issue in my eyes is that PT is regarded as a privilege once all tasks have been completed, while the reality is that PT itself is very much one of these tasks that needs to fall into the schedule. 

Suggestions from the senior NCO's and Officers on how to address this issue in my Sqn apart from printing out ten copies of the CDS's Guidance and plastering it throughout the unit?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Based on my experience, the Class B people I've seen (technically paid to do PT daily because they are allowed to turn up to work an hour later than normal people so they can do PT in their own time) are far less fit than the Class A troops we have.  Some are grossly obese, in fact, and would be kicked out of they were Class A troops.

Of course, our Class A troops must pass all the tests (Force and BFT) annually but are not paid to do PT to get ready for them. I haven't seen anyone fail yet, except for some retired Reg F folks who joined the reserves  ;D

Solution? Put everyone on Class A for 3 months until they get fit enough to pass the Force and BFT tests  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

cld617 said:
			
		

> I would get looked at like I had horns if I tried to convince my CoC of the 5x a week program, and their exact response would be “fitness on your own time”.



Great.  Now you have the CDS direction that makes their opinion irrelevant.



> The only people in my CoC I see who actually do get the time to do this are mon-fri officers, who are generally healthier and more fitness oriented than the Sgt/WO's in the RCAF my unit. The issue in my eyes is that PT is regarded as a privilege once all tasks have been completed, while the reality is that PT itself is very much one of these tasks that needs to fall into the schedule.



Not sure what RCAF unit you are in but I can assure you your experience is not the norm I've experienced in the RCAF before making the jump to the blue from the Cbt Arms world. 



> Suggestions from the senior NCO's and Officers on how to address this issue in my Sqn apart from printing out ten copies of the CDS's Guidance and plastering it throughout the unit?



Why exclude the opinions of Warrant Officers?  They have valid experience and points, just like Snr NCOs and Officers do.

Have you considered asking for 5 minutes of your immediate superiors time, and discussing the CDS Guidance to COs excerpt along with the relevant DAOD?  If you get the "pt on your own time"  you can point out that, unless they somehow outrank the CDS, the direction is pretty clear and it doesn't appear they have the authority to disregard orders.  Assuming your 'next up' is a Jnr or Snr NCO (Warrant Officers are not Snr NCOs BTW)...

From QR & O, Vol 1, Chap 5

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

(See articles 1.22 – Accessibility of Regulations, Orders and Instructions and 4.26 – Publicity of Regulations, Orders, Instructions, Correspondence and Publications.)
b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Depending how important the issue is to you, you could staff a memo to the unit CO with the proper references asking for the directed PT times IAW the CDS Guidance and the DAOD.

If that gets denied, you could submit a grievance.  Again, depends on what level you want to go.


----------



## MJP

ff topic:




			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Why exclude the opinions of Warrant Officers?  They have valid experience and points, just like Snr NCOs and Officers do.



I know it is your cross to bear in life cause you keep talking about it but in common vernacular most people in the CAF mean all ranks above Sgt when they say SNCO.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

It's not 'off topic', its PD.  If "most" people mean it, then "most" people are wrong.  

Fact.  WOs are not NCOs.  Therefore they cannot be Senior NCOs.  Unless, of course, you are willing to argue that the QR & Os are incorrect.

_"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;
_
I guess NCOs can start referring to Capt's as subordinate officers then, as long as "most" of us do it, then it's cool.   8)


----------



## MJP

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It's not 'off topic', its PD.  If "most" people mean it, then "most" people are wrong.
> 
> Fact.  WOs are not NCOs.  Therefore they cannot be Senior NCOs.  Unless, of course, you are willing to argue that the QR & Os are incorrect.
> 
> _"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;
> _
> I guess NCOs can start referring to Capt's as subordinate officers then, as long as "most" of us do it, then it's cool.   8)



Le sigh......whatever floats your boat dude.  Something something....not a hill to die on.


----------



## Monsoon

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Have you considered asking for 5 minutes of your immediate superiors time, and discussing the CDS Guidance to COs excerpt along with the relevant DAOD?  If you get the "pt on your own time"  you can point out that, unless they somehow outrank the CDS, the direction is pretty clear and it doesn't appear they have the authority to disregard orders.


I think you would find that if you submitted a grievance on the basis of the CDS _Guidance_ to Commanding Officers, you'd find that COs continue to have wide latitude in implementing the many and conflicting directions and priorities set for their units. The specific implementation of that _guidance_ is something that's very much between the CDS and a CO (through the CO's CoC, natch); what it isn't is a policy that exists for the purposes of unit members wishing to assert what they regard as personal entitlements.

But, hey - you know what's not defined in DAODs or anywhere else? A definition of what "your own time" constitutes. Maybe if we push our luck we can all look forward to some 0630am PT ahead of of nice, full work day that doesn't end until 1630. Satisfies DAODs and the CDS Guidance - everyone's a winner! Right?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

2203.5 These fundamental concepts are supported by the following selection of fitness guidelines to establishing a culture of fitness:
a. _It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied_. As Commanding Officers you will be in a
position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.
b. Seek out every opportunity for CF members *to include exercise in their work routines*. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated. Given what we know of the power of daily fitness to increase morale, reduce stress, and improve work performance, it is incumbent upon us to be innovative in our approach when a formal fitness routine is impractical.
c. Seek out every opportunity to promote and reward healthy physical activities and fitness practices.

Is that not clear enough?  Where is it people think all this 'leeway' actually exists?

I have had personal experience with both the DGCFGA folks and the MGERC and based on my experience with both, I believe (if properly written) a grievance submitted by a CF mbr for PT time that is included in the normal unit publish 'duty/work hours' that was rejected would have a very reasonable chance of success.  If it is such a big deal across the entire CF, then it could possible go to the Systemic Issues side of the house which would likely result in 'eyes on' by the CDS; perhaps then he'd remove this 'leeway' people are injecting into the current policy.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> But, hey - you know what's not defined in DAODs or anywhere else? A definition of what "your own time" constitutes. Maybe if we push our luck we can all look forward to some 0630am PT ahead of of nice, full work day that doesn't end until 1630. Satisfies DAODs and the CDS Guidance - everyone's a winner! Right?



Not at my unit;  we already have CO directed, PSP-lead PT twice a week from 1430-1530.  On the other days, we have a 'community' PSP-lead PT class that all are free to attend, but it is not mandatory like the CO directed ones are.  

One of the benefits of having a CO who follows the letter and spirit of the multiple 'conflicting' policies you mention above.  

I think any reasonable adult would come to the conclusion that 'on your own time' means outside  your work routine/normal duty(working) hours.  There is no definition of what "air" is in any CF policy but I think most people know what it is.  Does the CDS have to spell things out to CAF mbrs like they are Day 1 Kindergarten students?  Are we _*that*_ far gone?


----------



## Monsoon

"Seek out every opportunity". Yeah, sounds like the COs' hands are really tied there.  :


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think any reasonable adult would come to the conclusion that 'on your own time' means outside  your work routine/normal duty(working) hours.



And that's the rub for the Navy.

Don't get us wrong, I think everyone in the RCN is onboard with the CDS concept that we must make good health and fitness part of our culture. It is the "letter and intent" that it should be done during "normal" working hours and prefreably in group that doesn't work for us. And I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only.

Lets start with being at sea: The normal work routine/duty hours are 24/7, with the crew usually standing one in two watches (half crew on half off at any moment). Am I to, say, take some of my ops room console operators in the middle of their "shift" to send them off to exercise on the treadmills, or half of my engineers manning the MCR at that time? Of course not. What about when they are "off-watch"? Well, first, in the short off watch (5 hours), they will have a meal, carry out essential equipment maintenance, carry out essential evolutions (replenish ship at sea for food, parts or fuel, etc.) and some other duties like cleaning stations*. That leaves the long "off-watch" (7 hours) but by your definition, that would be "on their own time".

What about in harbour? Well, first of all, we have short spells in harbour. During those spells, a ton of maintenance and repairs have to be done. They are done by civilian dockyard workers and contractors, together with Navy technician from the various Fleet maintenance units. Now, if my shipboard technicians (which is about 80% of the ship's company BTW) are not present, the contractors and dockyard mates cannot do their work. And since all the work has to be done for the ship to next sail on time, I cannot spare the techs for fitness during what you would consider "normal hours". If I did, the technician, the dockyard mates and civilian contractors would have to work outside their normal working hours to complete the work, and that would entail (for the dockyard mates and civilian contractors) a lot of expensive overtime to pay from the Navy budget.

If the ships cannot sail on time or as required, I can tell you that there would be no consequences for the CDS issuing the policy, but there would certainly be consequences for the poor CO who's ship didn't sail as ordered, or the Task group commander of that ship, or even possibly for the Admiral.

So which question do you think the Admiral would rather answer as follows to the CDS?

scenario one: CDS: Why are your ships unable to sail on time? Admiral: Because I have very fit personnel, Sir.

or

scenario two: CDS: Why are your sailors not fit, contrary to my policy? Admiral: Because my ships can sail whenever ordered, Sir. 


*: I know that many people resent cleaning stations and that many think it would be a good time to do something else. But in my book, they are essential. Anyone who has seen illness spread through the confines of  a ship knows that keeping the ship clean has as much if not more to do with the health of the crew than PT. 

P.s.: The order of priority for work in harbour is, first, to make sure the main systems are fully functional, then that for each main system, that the primary back-up system works, then that the secondary back-up systems are functional, and then, for those system that have a tertiary back-up, that those also work. Currently, the Navy is NOT meeting this workload even by dedicating all normal working hours to it in harbour. Few ships, if any, sail with all their back-up systems functional. Most of the time there is only one back-up system available should something happen at sea. For some main systems, we are often sailing without any back-up and rely on the engineers inventiveness and resourcefulness if something happens.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> "Seek out every opportunity". Yeah, sounds like the COs' hands are really tied there.  :



But you're being selective and looking at the steak not the peas.  My interpretation of that part is 'make it happen where/when you can'.  As I've mentioned, my CO is managing to make it happen with a very busy flying squadron that has members constantly out the door for short/long term trips and a busy flying program including a long-term deployed op.  It can and is being done.  Why?  I'll suggest because that CO is looking for opportunities, not excuses.

Here's some steak to counter your peas though  ;D :  

- It is imperative that the requirement for fitness training at least five times a week is respected and applied. As Commanding Officers you will be in a position to facilitate this requirement for all your personnel.

- Seek out every opportunity for CF members to include exercise in their work routines. The mantras of “fitness on your own time” or “we don’t have time for fitness” are to be eliminated


But by all means, go on.  I for one enjoy seeing Jr and Snr Officers trying to explain on a public forum why they think "guidance" from the Chief of Defence Staff is inconsequential.  By the way, if you are not too busy, can you take the time to jot down and share with the entire forum the policies, regulations, orders etc that are issued that we can ignore at our own whim and will, and which ones are actually there for a reason?  It gets confusing some times to know...oh wait.  I think I read something about that before...

*4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS*

(1) An officer *shall*:
a.become acquainted with, *observe* and enforce
:i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

What shall we debate next; the meaning of the word 'shall'?   ;D

* Editted to add, I am not trying to start a flame-war, this is actually a great discussion IMO and I am learning from it.  I am also challenging what is being said though, from the level I operate in day to day.  There are some great points and realities being brought up, example:



> I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only



 I hope this one keep going forward and not down the drain.   :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> And that's the rub for the Navy.
> 
> Don't get us wrong, I think everyone in the RCN is onboard with the CDS concept that we must make good health and fitness part of our culture. It is the "letter and intent" that it should be done during "normal" working hours and prefreably in group that doesn't work for us. And I think that the CDS who issued that policy had his brain addled by thinking in Army terms of garrison life only.
> 
> Lets start with being at sea: The normal work routine/duty hours are 24/7, with the crew usually standing one in two watches (half crew on half off at any moment). Am I to, say, take some of my ops room console operators in the middle of their "shift" to send them off to exercise on the treadmills, or half of my engineers manning the MCR at that time? Of course not. What about when they are "off-watch"? Well, first, in the short off watch (5 hours), they will have a meal, carry out essential equipment maintenance, carry out essential evolutions (replenish ship at sea for food, parts or fuel, etc.) and some other duties like cleaning stations*. That leaves the long "off-watch" (7 hours) but by your definition, that would be "on their own time".
> 
> What about in harbour? Well, first of all, we have short spells in harbour. During those spells, a ton of maintenance and repairs have to be done. They are done by civilian dockyard workers and contractors, together with Navy technician from the various Fleet maintenance units. Now, if my shipboard technicians (which is about 80% of the ship's company BTW) are not present, the contractors and dockyard mates cannot do their work. And since all the work has to be done for the ship to next sail on time, I cannot spare the techs for fitness during what you would consider "normal hours". If I did, the technician, the dockyard mates and civilian contractors would have to work outside their normal working hours to complete the work, and that would entail (for the dockyard mates and civilian contractors) a lot of expensive overtime to pay from the Navy budget.
> 
> If the ships cannot sail on time or as required, I can tell you that there would be no consequences for the CDS issuing the policy, but there would certainly be consequences for the poor CO who's ship didn't sail as ordered, or the Task group commander of that ship, or even possibly for the Admiral.
> 
> So which question do you think the Admiral would rather answer as follows to the CDS?
> 
> scenario one: CDS: Why are your ships unable to sail on time? Admiral: Because I have very fit personnel, Sir.
> 
> or
> 
> scenario two: CDS: Why are your sailors not fit, contrary to my policy? Admiral: Because my ships can sail whenever ordered, Sir.
> 
> 
> *: I know that many people resent cleaning stations and that many think it would be a good time to do something else. But in my book, they are essential. Anyone who has seen illness spread through the confines of  a ship knows that keeping the ship clean has as much if not more to do with the health of the crew than PT.
> 
> P.s.: The order of priority for work in harbour is, first, to make sure the main systems are fully functional, then that for each main system, that the primary back-up system works, then that the secondary back-up systems are functional, and then, for those system that have a tertiary back-up, that those also work. Currently, the Navy is NOT meeting this workload even by dedicating all normal working hours to it in harbour. Few ships, if any, sail with all their back-up systems functional. Most of the time there is only one back-up system available should something happen at sea. For some main systems, we are often sailing without any back-up and rely on the engineers inventiveness and resourcefulness if something happens.



Thanks for a very detailed reply, it certainly helps put the perspective on the reality of the Navy (not so much the situation with the folks posted ashore I will assume).

I get the operational 'musts' and agree with you on that, no argument ops take precedence, always.  I do know of one instance, though, when a PSP staff member went on a deployment with a HMCS.  

Ref the part of the techs needing to be there with the Fleet Maint units, do they all need to be there the entire day?  Can they go at 4 or 5 different time slots for say, 2 hours 3 days a week?  That way not all of them would be gone, 3/4 of them would be there at any given time and then not even 'each and every day'.  It would be something and something isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.

That is what I mean by the 'do what you can, when you can' aspect that (IMO) both the DAOD and CDS Guidance seem to incorporate into the 'spirit and intent' of those documents.

There is no cookie-cutter solution, which is why I believe the DAOD and CDS Guidance are somewhat vague and generalized.  The real 'management' should be down lower on the chain; more amplification at the ECSs or OCC levels, etc.  COs take it all, see 'what can I do and where can I do it, even if its not perfect', and implement something.

And it can be flexible.  Because of op tempo, leave etc our Sqn PT afternoons were stood down for Jul and Aug and there just wasn't enough people around, with APS, leave, deployments etc.  Personally, of all the COs I've had over my years, my current one really seems to have the PT issue handled very well.  Its' not perfect, _and_ it works.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Ref the part of the techs needing to be there with the Fleet Maint units, do they all need to be there the entire day?  Can they go at 4 or 5 different time slots for say, 2 hours 3 days a week?  That way not all of them would be gone, 3/4 of them would be there at any given time and then not even 'each and every day'.  It would be something and something isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing.



This is what we are actually doing right now on the ship I'm on, and the time slots are basically whenever you can fit in time during normal working hours.  Some days you can spare people, some days you can't.  We have regular dedicated ship PT periods at the gym as well and it's spare who you can to those as well.

I think it meets the intent of the direction if possibly not the letter, and we are also fully supporting the critical maintenance (and refresher training, and career coursing, annual leave, short fuse taskings, etc).  Something needs to slip though, but you manage the best you can to prioritize things, and make sure whatever you need for the next mission is done.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Which to me is far more acceptable and responsible than "screw it, we don't have time for PT, do it after your kids are in bed".


----------



## Navy_Pete

It works out not too bad, the downside being it's the same people that are generally out exercising rather then everyone taking advantage, so it's not perfect.

Personally find that before/after work is the only time I can regularly get out for exercise, but find it a good way to burn of stress after running around during the days at meetings and otherwise putting out fires.


----------



## Lumber

Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again. 

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers


----------



## ModlrMike

Lumber said:
			
		

> Looking for opinions.
> 
> Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?
> 
> Cheers



No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.


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## Andraste

Lumber said:
			
		

> Looking for opinions.
> 
> Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?



For me I guess I would view it no differently than someone who drives their car to work and hits the gym for a leisurely 45 minute stationary bike ride then off the bike and into the showers.  If the member is getting her/his exercise in one form or another the venue (gym or biking from home) doesn't see to make a difference.

I had a guy working for me who ran from his house each morning to work and back home again which equated to 18kms (round trip).  I see that as a good PT.  But you are right, I would want to make sure the member is actually doing what they are saying and that is easy enough to monitor IMO.  

I guess if we want to make fitness a culture mindset, it makes sense to foster that in folks in whatever form they can given their work schedule, unit commitments and all around day to day nausea . . . my two cents.

Cheers

Andraste


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## Eye In The Sky

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.



That doesn't work in every location.  I worked at a location that was 10-15 minute drive from my "office" to the gym.  If I hadn't of been able to go to PT first then work, I would reported to work, got back in my car, driven up Gottigen, got into the gym, changed...walked 10 steps, turned around, got back in uniform and drove back to work.  Voila there goes my 'hour of PT'.

Most units I've worked for (some army, navy and Air Force) we were authorized to start the work day with PT and then start work at "XYZ time".  

Personally, I think the spirit and intent of the PT policy is being adhered to here; the member is doing PT and reporting to work on time.  What PT would he/she be doing after a 45 min big ride? What would be the difference if the mbr drove to work, got there for 0745 and then...took their bike off the back of their car and went for an hour ride?


*Cough* Doing PT and then reporting to work *cough* is something I've seen done before; the people who abused it were caught and dealt with.  Not hard to tell if someone is doing the PT or not, especially when they tap out at lvl 3 on the 20MSR.   :nod:  (back when we had that...)  
 :2c:


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## ballz

I would let him in a heartbeat. If you don't create an environment that is conducive to PT, you are not going to get a lot of PT.

I swim from 0615 - 0715 on Mondays / Wednesdays. On Wednesdays, I follow that up with a bike ride (working up to 40km, which will take me about 1h20), so on Wednesdays the OC knows I won't be at coy parade. I get to work between 0900-1000 on Wednesdays because of it. If the OC wouldn't let me do that, he is literally blocking me from bettering myself. He should be encouraging me, not discouraging me.

I have had troops that wanted to do similar things. I always accommodated anyone that wanted to miss coy parade because they were doing a 2 hour long workout and we only have 1 hour of PT built into our daily schedule. It's never been the suspects that ask for those things in my experience.


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## ballz

Lumber said:
			
		

> Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.
> 
> Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?
> 
> Cheers



Not to mention he is going to spend 45 minutes riding back... so 90 minutes of cardio a day. Good on him I'd say.

If he doesn't have a car, how does he normally get to work? Bus / subway / etc?


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## gryphonv

Lumber said:
			
		

> Looking for opinions.
> 
> First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.
> 
> If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.
> 
> If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?
> 
> If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.
> 
> Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.
> 
> Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?
> 
> Cheers



This is where the Honor system applies. If the member is responsible I would run with it, as long as it didn't interfere with running your unit. Have him/her submit a memo and get the COC approval. I've seen similar accommodations done for members before. 

There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.


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## ballz

gryphonv said:
			
		

> There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.



If you are driving to or from work, its considered a service-related injury anyway. But if he has an approved memo from CoC to do this as his physical training as you wisely mentioned, he'd be good to go in that regard as well. You don't need to be on base for it to be a service-related injury.


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## Jarnhamar

Just to offer some constructive criticism.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike



For me it would depend on a few factors like the members level of fitness and whether or not the members bike ride in from work, given the time and distance to their house, would be considered strenuous or not.

A leisurely bike ride to work in my opinion wouldn't constitute physical training. It would also be ignoring upper body conditioning too. 

PT is also a great avenue for getting to know peers/leaders/subordinates and exercise the principles of leadership. A member doing it on their own every day will miss out on that important aspect.


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## PuckChaser

That would be my consideration as well, cycling every day would be one-dimensional fitness. Unless the member is trying to lose a lot of weight, it's not good for overall conditioning. I'd give him a few days a week to cycle in and skip PT, but at least twice a week in the gym doing weights/circuit training with everyone else.


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## kratz

When I was requesting the start or end of day PT periods, I was always frustrated with "additional" restrictions on which days, times ect...After reading Jarnhamar and PuckChaser's comments, I have a clearer understanding how the CoC was assisting in improving the overall benefit of my PT efforts.


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## Pusser

Lumber said:
			
		

> Looking for opinions.
> 
> First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.
> 
> If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.
> 
> If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?
> 
> If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.
> 
> Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.
> 
> Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?
> 
> Cheers



I would permit this in a heartbeat, because that is exactly what I do!  The only thing I would look out for is whether he's stepping off the bus or walking from the parking lot at 0845 (which I once caught one of my subordinates doing).  As others have said, anyone who would abuse this situation would be found out soon enough.  Furthermore, allowing people to leave early for PT (e.g. go play hockey) and not return to work afterwards is commonplace.  I don't see this as being any different.

As for the idea that this individual is missing unit PT, that does not appear to be an issue in this case (i.e. no mention that the unit does group PT first thing in the morning).  Also, I would argue that the statements concerning whether or not this is a "complete" workout are irrelevant.  Aside from those units that do group PT (and even then I wonder), where in the CF do we, as an organization, actually monitor and ensure that personnel are working the whole body with both cardio and resistance training?  Finally, anyone who thinks that cycling only works the legs, hasn't done a lot of cycling...


----------



## Lumber

Thanks for all the input everyone!


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## CountDC

Pusser said:
			
		

> I would permit this in a heartbeat, because that is exactly what I do!  The only thing I would look out for is whether he's stepping off the bus or walking from the parking lot at 0845 (which I once caught one of my subordinates doing).  As others have said, anyone who would abuse this situation would be found out soon enough.  Furthermore, allowing people to leave early for PT (e.g. go play hockey) and not return to work afterwards is commonplace.  I don't see this as being any different.
> 
> As for the idea that this individual is missing unit PT, that does not appear to be an issue in this case (i.e. no mention that the unit does group PT first thing in the morning).  Also, I would argue that the statements concerning whether or not this is a "complete" workout are irrelevant.  Aside from those units that do group PT (and even then I wonder), where in the CF do we, as an organization, actually monitor and ensure that personnel are working the whole body with both cardio and resistance training?  Finally, anyone who thinks that cycling only works the legs, hasn't done a lot of cycling...



Agree fully as I do the same thing. Cycle back and forth to work as my unit PT and it is a harder work out than just legs or cardio.  Even if they were to make me be at work and then go do PT it wouldn't really accomplish anything different.  I would bike in and go to PT already tired out so not get much more of a workout.  I also workout at home with my wife who comes up with circuits harder than any I have done at work.


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## daftandbarmy

I'm a part time guy a.k.a. Class A Temp CF (cannon fodder)

I don't get paid for PT, except when I do the mandatory PT tests annually, or when I get to the armoury early enough to join the rifle company guys in a workout on a parade night.

There are Class B people who 'get paid' to do PT daily and many are - shall we say - somewhat less capable than this 55 year old chunk of cannon fodder. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the fittest guy around, but I am good to go compared to some of these people, sadly.

Should I submit pay sheets to recognize the time spent on my personal efforts, in my own time? 

Should my (part time) soldiers do the same?

Really, looking for a steer here.


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## PuckChaser

If you start submitting pay sheets for doing PT: 1. You'll run out of CL A days and not be allowed to show up anymore for that year, 2. Do you plan on showing up for the 5 hours of work you owe the Crown for the half day pay you signed?


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## Jarnhamar

"because I do it" isn't necessarily a great justification however I'm glad to read that than see some people get special privilege and others not.

My issue wouldn't be whether or not biking can be a physically challenging work out, obviously it can be. My issue would be the intensity and training involved in a member taking a bike to work in lieu of PT.  Running to work is a workout, walking at the speed of a child's pace isn't.




			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Should I submit pay sheets to recognize the time spent on my personal efforts, in my own time?
> 
> Should my (part time) soldiers do the same?
> 
> Really, looking for a steer here.



IMO reservists should absolutely be accommodated for PT somehow. If shit hits the fan the reg force won't be be effective without augmentation by reservists. Reservists seem to be generally out of shape. To me it only makes sense to try and help foster physical fitness so when we need them they'll be more ready.
Tracking and oversight would be an issue of course and require some brain storming.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> "because I do it" isn't necessarily a great justification however I'm glad to read that than see some people get special privilege and others not.
> 
> My issue wouldn't be whether or not biking can be a physically challenging work out, obviously it can be. My issue would be the intensity and training involved in a member taking a bike to work in lieu of PT.  Running to work is a workout, walking at the speed of a child's pace isn't.
> 
> 
> IMO reservists should absolutely be accommodated for PT somehow. If crap hits the fan the reg force won't be be effective without augmentation by reservists. Reservists seem to be generally out of shape. To me it only makes sense to try and help foster physical fitness so when we need them they'll be more ready.
> Tracking and oversight would be an issue of course and require some brain storming.



There is a role here for biometric fitness trackers, of course. Large corporations, much larger than the CF, are getting on board with this big time

Require me to prove my fitness program through uploading my metrics to facebook, or whatever, then give me 5 x 1/2 day pay sheets per week. 

I shouldn't have to parade at the armoury to do fitness. Ours is nowhere near the 1300ft mountain I usually train on (with a 40lb ruck) anyways


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## dapaterson

To recap CAF physical fitness: If we pay you 24/7, we'll give you reduced working hours and provide fitness facilities to let you exercise.  If you're part-time, we won't pay for your time, or provide you with any significant resources to help with your fitness.


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## PuckChaser

If there's a base nearby, reservists can use the base gym no questions asked. Whether they do it or not, is their problem. Regular force members are expected to be ready to go at a moment's notice. If a reservist wants to deploy, they have months to get ready prior to contract award. If that reservist isn't fit, that's a PRes unit CoC failure for nominating someone not in shape.


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## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If there's a base nearby, reservists can use the base gym no questions asked. Whether they do it or not, is their problem.



If - and it's a big if.  As well, some maintain restrictive hours that don;t serve people already working full time very well.



> Regular force members are expected to be ready to go at a moment's notice.



With the numbers who DAG red, it's clear that many are not holding up their end of the bargain.



> If a reservist wants to deploy, they have months to get ready prior to contract award. If that reservist isn't fit, that's a PRes unit CoC failure for nominating someone not in shape.



Have you read the policy on nominations for full-time service, and what the Reserve CoC can (and cannot) do?


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## PuckChaser

You're telling me if someone is a fat slob, they're entitled to be nominated by their chain for a deployment? What kind of bizzaro world is that? I had a job interview to get a contract for workup training, and had to earn a spot as a Det comd, otherwise I would have deployed as a Cpl.

Those working restrictive hours should reconsider employment in the Reserves then. If they can't devote a couple hours a week to fitness, they're likely too busy to train effectively or be called up when required. They're also likely too busy to prevent a heart attack in their 40s as well.


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## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Those working restrictive hours should reconsider employment in the Reserves then. If they can't devote a couple hours a week to fitness, they're likely too busy to train effectively or be called up when required. They're also likely too busy to prevent a heart attack in their 40s as well.



Sorry, talking at cross purposes here.  I'm referring to those who can and do train, and would use military facilities if they could, but military facilities close at say 1800, so they have to go elsewhere.


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## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Sorry, talking at cross purposes here.  I'm referring to those who can and do train, and would use military facilities if they could, but military facilities close at say 1800, so they have to go elsewhere.



Thats not on. Any military fitness facility should be open 0530 to 2200 daily. The extra couple hours at $15/h or so per employee is money in the bank when you consider saved costs from a fit military member, even if they are a Cl A reservist.


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## ModlrMike

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Thats not on. Any military fitness facility should be open 0530 to 2200 daily. The extra couple hours at $15/h or so per employee is money in the bank when you consider saved costs from a fit military member, even if they are a Cl A reservist.



But then there won't be enough money to buy new combat boots, or uniforms, or whatever...  >


----------



## Jarnhamar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If there's a base nearby, reservists can use the base gym no questions asked. Whether they do it or not, is their problem. Regular force members are expected to be ready to go at a moment's notice. If a reservist wants to deploy, they have months to get ready prior to contract award. If that reservist isn't fit, that's a PRes unit CoC failure for nominating someone not in shape.



Not always the case I'm afraid.

As a class B reservist I fought for and was soundly denied permission for myself and other class B pers to use a gym local reg force pers had free access to; if we wanted to use the gym it was $600+ a year. 

The reason we couldn't use the gym free of charge was because *15 years prior* two privates made a mess in the change room (I kid you not).

When I pushed to get class B members free gym memberships at other local gyms I was told only class B pers on 3 year contracts were eligible; we all know how the reserves and their 89 instead of 90 day contracts feel about benefits.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You're telling me if someone is a fat slob, they're entitled to be nominated by their chain for a deployment? What kind of bizzaro world is that? I had a job interview to get a contract for workup training, and had to earn a spot as a Det comd, otherwise I would have deployed as a Cpl.
> 
> Those working restrictive hours should reconsider employment in the Reserves then. If they can't devote a couple hours a week to fitness, they're likely too busy to train effectively or be called up when required. They're also likely too busy to prevent a heart attack in their 40s as well.



Although, I've seen some 'Reg Force" fat slobs  members who aren't _PT poster boys/girls _deployed as well (and recently...);the deployment standard right now is the FORCE test for PT.  :nod:


----------



## Pusser

On the Reserve side of things, one solution might be to put gyms in armouries.


----------



## PuckChaser

Pusser said:
			
		

> On the Reserve side of things, one solution might be to put gyms in armouries.


PSP mafia would never allow it.


----------



## kratz

Pusser said:
			
		

> On the Reserve side of things, one solution might be to put gyms in armouries.



For those units which do have gyms, the CoC has often made it difficult for off duty class A members to be allowed to come in for a workout. Claiming liability issues.


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## runormal

Pusser said:
			
		

> On the Reserve side of things, one solution might be to put gyms in armouries.



My unit has one, though it is only open during working hours (0800-1600). It used to be open later but they reduced the hours.  Personally I've never set foot in a gym because I don't know what I'm doing. So I just eat properly and do cardio on my own time.

What is frustrating is that we have a nice parade square, equipped with basketball nets, ball hockey equipment and I believe volley ball nets and it is seldom used outside of unit level PT. Several units share the same armouries and I am fairly certain that there are several nights a week where no one is using it. However I'm paying out of pocket to join a drop in Ball hockey league in my city. I'm fairly certain we could set up a leauge whether it was drop/in or unit vs unit. Definitely have the equipment and people, would just need a group of people to organize and to be authorized to do it..


----------



## Lumber

runormal said:
			
		

> My unit has one, though it is only open during working hours (0800-1600). It used to be open later but they reduced the hours.  Personally I've never set foot in a gym because I don't know what I'm doing. So I just eat properly and do cardio on my own time.
> 
> What is frustrating is that we have a nice parade square, equipped with basketball nets, ball hockey equipment and I believe volley ball nets and it is seldom used outside of unit level PT. Several units share the same armouries and I am fairly certain that there are several nights a week where no one is using it. However I'm paying out of pocket to join a drop in Ball hockey league in my city. I'm fairly certain we could set up a leauge whether it was drop/in or unit vs unit. Definitely have the equipment and people, would just need a group of people to organize and to be authorized to do it..



You literally just described my unit. My building belong to the Naval Reserve Division I work for, but we share the base with 2 Army reserve units. Our building has a beautiful, well stocked gym, the drill deck has basketball nets, fittings for volleyball and badminton, and we have a ton of perfectly good sports gear for baseball, ball hockey, and a whole bunch of other sports. Until I came along and started pushing for ball hockey, no one ever used any of it! We even have Yoga gear!



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Thats not on. Any military fitness facility should be open 0530 to 2200 daily. The extra couple hours at $15/h or so per employee is money in the bank when you consider saved costs from a fit military member, even if they are a Cl A reservist.



I hope by "any military fitness facility" you mean an actual dedicated gym. We have a gym in our building that's stocked with enough cardio and weight equipment for probably a dozen people to be working out at the same time, but you will not see this building open outside of regular working hours (0800-1600).



			
				kratz said:
			
		

> For those units which do have gyms, the CoC has often made it difficult for off duty class A members to be allowed to come in for a workout. Claiming liability issues.



While we definitely haven't had the issue of liability come up, that could be because I've never actually seen a Class A member come use the gym outside of regular Class-A parade nights.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Good lord, Lumber: You're at HMCS STAR!

Don't complain ( [) about the facilities. You should have seen what they had before the fire.

Feel free to look up the ship's bell: Both of my son's names are engraved there.  [


----------



## Lumber

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Good lord, Lumber: You're at HMCS STAR!
> 
> Don't complain ( [) about the facilities. You should have seen what they had before the fire.
> 
> Feel free to look up the ship's bell: Both of my son's names are engraved there.  [



Oh I wasnt complaining  about the facilities, I was decrying the lack of anyone using them!


----------

