# Which way is the army heading??



## jarko (6 Aug 2004)

Is our army becoming better, staying the same or going downhill ??? Please provide examples.


----------



## greydak (7 Aug 2004)

I heard we have the best pay?


----------



## MJP (7 Aug 2004)

jarko said:
			
		

> Is our army becoming better, staying the same or going downhill ??? Please provide examples.



I poached this from the old rules that used to be given to everyone that joined this fine community when it was a mailing list way back when.  Written by Mr O'Leary they are quite relevant and should be a mandatory read.  You can find them here http://army.ca/listserv/therules.php

"Specific inquiries will generate specific answers, general questions may be ignored because the answer to a ten word question may theoretically require a book, and were not here waiting to write you a book explaining What is military training like?"

This topic can and will give you wide and varied answers and it all pretty much depends on the experience of the poster and their general mentality.  These sorts of topic usually disintergrate into sniping of some form or another and no serious discussion takes place.  I think it would be better if you coached your question to be more specific instead of a wide ranging question you have now.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2004)

put simply the army is going to shit.  Do a search for why.


----------



## canuck101 (7 Aug 2004)

CFL the guy had a question it may have been not as specific as you wanted but just saying

put simply the army is going to crap.  Do a search for why. is not giving any help either. It would only take a second or two to direct him to a topic to research.

jarko i think was just asking if the army is in decline or not simple as that.  If you are not allowed to ask a stupid question how are you going to learn, you learn from mistakes.  I also found the help that MJP gave with the link was cool but went on saying 

These sorts of topic usually disintergrate into sniping of some form or another and no serious discussion takes place.  I think it would be better if you coached your question to be more specific instead of a wide ranging question you have now. 

seems a little harsh but i am new to this forum myself. I only spent one year in the reserves which i know is not much but i am a military brat and have lived all over Canada moving base to base with my parents so i know a little maybe not enough to be a expert on many topics.  He will learn from experience his profile shows he may want to join the army so cut him some slack.  It is not like this forum is going to die from one question.

This may piss off some people but there are other military forums out there.  I find this forum very good in it's wide range of topics and the people that post topics and answer them.  

go ahead and tell me that i am total wrong.  Remember forum means a place or medium for meeting,discussion or debate nothing more and nothing less.

I personally think that the leaderships in the army is the main problem.  We only have a few generals that stand up for their troops. I found that most generals are just bureaucrats. Generals should be able to tell the politicans that we need to keep more troops at home so we can train new one.  I shouldn't take six months to a year for people wanting to join.

well that is my rant for today 

cheers


----------



## MJP (7 Aug 2004)

canuck101 said:
			
		

> These sorts of topic usually disintergrate into sniping of some form or another and no serious discussion takes place.  I think it would be better if you coached your question to be more specific instead of a wide ranging question you have now.
> 
> seems a little harsh but i am new to this forum myself.



It was never meant to be harsh...just a friendly suggestion


----------



## canuck101 (7 Aug 2004)

That is cool i did not mean to be so harsh myself i reacted to the non- answer to his question that all. It's all good


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

It must be on some kind of uphill track, look at all the websites out there about our army now (especially this one) and all the attention thier getting, but yes, we're still not "up to standards"...the way I look at it; we're the turtle in the turtoise and the hare race...we don't go anywhere fast, but atleast we're moving...

I mean if we weren't the government would have found something new to steal money from...lol


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2004)

Ya were moving...backwards.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

How so...I mean it's no secrect, but still...

I mean you kinda made a point, but you didn't back it up...explain...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2004)

Lack of personal..not enough people to fulfill all the requirements of the military, courses, tours, new laser range facilities
Lack of equipment..said laser range facility has taken equipment from all units making them that much weaker
Lack of direction..are peace making or keeping or both.  Are we domestic or international
Lack of money..I've been to the range once or twice every year for the past 3 years
TOW going to one company
Pioneer and Mortars disbanded and picked up by the Engineers and Arty with no increase in manpower.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

But personel has got to be going up...look at all of us...

Even if that's the case, yes, we are still undeveloped (I wrote my history exam essay on our military...I thought it was interesting how we had a strong army in WWI (even though we had help from Britian) and an even stronger military in WWII and now we're in the shitter again, it's like we're waiting for WWIII to beef up our military again)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2004)

Being short staffed prior a major war has always been our way.  That said we need at least 20,000 more people for a total of around 80,000 to accomplish everything.  100,000 would be nice.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

You mean 19,999...cause as soon as I'm done college I'm in 

::EDIT:: Of course by then there should be a lot more soldiers, I still have to finish highschool (grade 11 next year)...so I have plenty of time to learn all I need before I enlist...I have some questions in other posts if anyone can help me out (and I'm trying not to drag this thread off topic...so hopefully I can finish it snappy)

What's the annual amount of new recruits/people retiring to/from the Canadian Army?  It's be a lot easier to estimate a year as to when we may have 100,000 soldiers if you had those figures...


----------



## winchable (7 Aug 2004)

> as soon as I'm done college I'm in



Why wait?


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

I want to get a degree in something before I enlist...I know there's schooling in the army but I want to make sure I have a college diploma before I do anything...also this way if things dont work out for me in the army (and I pray that they do work out) I have something to fall back on...that, and my mom doesn't want me to leave (even when I'm in my very earily 20's...lol)

::EDIT:: Actually my dad's happy that my life finally has some direction...but he still wouldn't want me to leave until I have a college diploma....


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

> I personally think that the leaderships in the army is the main problem.   We only have a few generals that stand up for their troops. I found that most generals are just bureaucrats. Generals should be able to tell the politicans that we need to keep more troops at home so we can train new one.   I shouldn't take six months to a year for people wanting to join



What would you base this evaluation upon.   The idea that corrupt generals are destroying the military seems to be a common one; but it is seriously ignorant one as well.   Why do people assume that every officer turns into a self-serving bureaucrat once they are promoted to Major?  This just seems to be a cop out to me, placing blame an a mysterious group of people who we can never seem to point out.

I would venture that the source of many of our problems is not found in a group of individuals (ie Generals, Fat People, etc) but rather on systemic causes.  I am willing to bet that the way we structure our Military leads to organizational problems which encourage inefficency and waste.  This is why it takes six months to a year for people to get into the military.

As well, Generals don't "tell" politicians anything.   A healthy civil-military relationship within a democracy doesn't allow this; Generals, like privates, are soldiers who serve the people of their state and the elected officials who represent them.   They take their orders as all other soldiers do from their civilian leaders and _should_ be free to perform their military duties in accordance with those directives.


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

Skura, have you looked into joining the reserves while you attend college?


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

Actually I haven't, I didn't know you could do that...

What goes on at the reserves...like what would someone like myself who would then have a job and be going to school do/learn on the reserve?


----------



## D-n-A (7 Aug 2004)

Theres a lot of students in the reserve(high school, college, university).

What you do in the reserves depends on the unit and trade you go into, and the qualifications you have. Without BMQ(basic training) you can't do a whole lot.

Also, the reserves can pay for some of your post secondary aswell.


----------



## winchable (7 Aug 2004)

> Skura, have you looked into joining the reserves while you attend college?


Ah ya beat me to it,

Skura, I'm one of those people.
I attend university while I'm in the reserves, doing training in the summer, school during the "School year"
It's really, really commonplace to find people like that. Officers, NCM's regardless.
What you need to do is go to the recruiter, tell them what you want, your situation and you guys can work out what is best for you.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

Do you have to enlist to do basic training...or can you do that without any strings attatched...because I'd really rather be kept busy on the reserve which it doesn't sound like I'd be able to do without BMQ...and what goes on during the school year on the reserve?


----------



## D-n-A (7 Aug 2004)

Yes, you have to enlist to do basic training. During the year when you first join, your be in a PAT Plt, being taught drill, rank, all the basic stuff to help get you ready for your BMQ. All the trained soldiers would be working in their trade, or doing a class/lecture(on GPS for example), and going on weekend excercises an week long excercises, etc.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

So does that mean that on my weekends in college, I'd be on the reserve doing my Basic Training?


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

Skura, where in Ontario do you live?  We could provide you with the number and location of the closest reserve units to you; I'm sure they would be much better at answering the specifics of your questions.


----------



## canuck101 (7 Aug 2004)

What are some of your idea's in fixing the systemic causes that are affecting the army and CF in general.  I would like to hear some workable idea's.   I think i will take a bus ride to the recruitment centre down from NDHQ tomorrow to.


----------



## donkon (7 Aug 2004)

Yeah the army is going slowly going downhill!  :crybaby:


----------



## canuck101 (7 Aug 2004)

Yes we all know it is going downhill but do we had any idea's to fix it.


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

> Yeah the army is going slowly going downhill!



That just seems to be the catch-phrase of the day, like we are declining from some golden age or something.   Well, that is probably just as incorrect as saying "The Generals Did It".

Sure the military has been plagued with poor support from the government since the mid-1960's, but it still remains one of the most professional forces around today.   We have many problems, I don't deny that, but problems are inherent in any peacetime army.   However, our problems are ever-changing along with the constant flux of security demands.   Right now, we are overstretched due to constant deployment on OOTW (with the odd small war thrown in) and face limitations in the ability to extend our forces globally; this was never a problem in the '70's and '80's, when we were concerned with how to manage are small contribution to Germany and watching the Northern border for incoming Soviets.

Rather then saying we have been declining since we demobilized in 1945-1946,   I would venture that our problem is that we are becoming increasingly further from being able to adapt our military to the demands of the security enviornment.

However, contrary to the opinion that many scholars seem to hold in that the CF is in grave danger of disappearing altogether (Granatstein comes to mind), I feel that as long as young Canadians commit themselves to join a fighting force, then we'll still be here, standing on the line.   Things could be worse.   In the '30's the militia was training with broomsticks and we only had a regular force of a few thousand soldiers; I'm happy with my C-7 and my snazzy camo....


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

> Yes we all know it is going downhill but do we had any idea's to fix it.



That is an awfully broad question.  As mentioned earlier, instead of asking things that have had entire books written on the topic, why don't you narrow your questions down.  As well, there are many serious discussions in the many forums on the board; do a search and you'll find many hours of interesting reading.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Aug 2004)

Well Infanteer your optomism is a breath of fresh air if I didn't know better.  I trust Janes Defence weekly as well as what I've seen in my own little pond and Janes seems to think were fucked as do I if we carry on this road.  Small doesn't mean weak.  I do blame the brass for not getting this point across.


----------



## skura (7 Aug 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Skura, where in Ontario do you live?



Mississauga

::EDIT::  How many "young" members belong on this site...from what I've seen I think I'm pretty young compaired to the people here if not the youngest, and (from the kids I see on a day to day basis) there isn't a high interst in our army...why I sparked an interest still escapes me because I'm surrounded everyday with "get the girl" and "dress like this" and "talk like this" and "think like this"...and almost everyone drifts towards what is considered cool, so how more young kids are supposed to get interested and want to help out in our army seems far off...and yet I'm here, so maybe there's hope...


----------



## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

> Well Infanteer your optomism is a breath of fresh air if I didn't know better.   I trust Janes Defence weekly as well as what I've seen in my own little pond and Janes seems to think were fucked as do I if we carry on this road.   Small doesn't mean weak.   I do blame the brass for not getting this point across.



I have to be optimistic, its the only way I can prepare myself for the next 30 years....  

Yes, Generals deserve some of the blame, perhaps more so then other ranks due to the greater responsibilities they are entrusted with.   But what about all the Privates and Corporals who have let their fitness and attitude decline, setting us up as one of the most out of shape military forces in the world.   What about some of the SNCO's who are eternally bitter and negative, only really kicking around to get the most out of their pension and not doing anything productive to further the well-being of the Forces.   How about the Militia troops of all Ranks who half-heartedly dedicate themselves to the Reserves as a social club, not caring about the valueable role in the defence in our Country that it could and should play.   Or how about the Regular who gives not a care for his profession, seeing the military only as "Green Welfare", a form of government subsidization easily served on MIR chits and "armchair" taskings.   

I've seen all of these types in some way in my relatively short time around the block, and I am sure most of us could think of a few off the top of our head.   Obviously, there is enough blame for the problems we have to go around.   As I said earlier, perhaps it is easier to target the Senior Officers due to the fact that they have the means to address some of these problems directly.   However, do you honesly believe that someone would dedicate a good portion of their life to the military only to deliberately fuck it over once they got to a high rank?   The more I learn and understand about the way that our Headquarters, the NDHQ, works and functions, the more convinced I become that our Senior Officers are alot more hand-tied then we think.   I think the first step in solving our problems is to sort out the civilianized, bureaucratic mess we have at the top; this was the consequence of Trudeau and his Defence Minister D. MacDonald's wholesale screwing of the Forces in an effort to make it more "corporate".

It's unfortunate, but things are always going to seem pretty fucked up until their is a major shift in the way Canadians view defence, security, and their military.   Until then we must focus on changing things at the levels we can affect and hope for some permanence in these changes.   I can just imagine what many serving soldiers thought in 1939 when MacKenzie King decided that Canada would play a back-up role to fighting the Germans, offering only Air Force support if possible.   I believe it took the Fall of France for Canada to get into the war.

Plus ca change, plus ca le meme chose....


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (8 Aug 2004)

Well leadership flows down.  You can't really expect a pte or Cpl to be in top form if his boss can't finish a section attack.  I personally have asked to go to the gym during down time when I was in one of the colonies.  Denied.  Map and compass, c-6 in SF role denied.  I can't book a range can I?  Well I suppose physically I could but who would action it.  I can't really fault the BN for going to the range so little if we have no bullets.
I was told a story once of a CO in the 3rd when they were still in Vic.  They still had financial constraints but when they went on a BN he had stands set up along the route.  First aid, C-6, Karl G, 60mm etc.  Also when told he couldn't have choppers for one of his ex's. he told the guy on the phone (air force) that he better get them or he'd be fired.  Its leadership like this that works hard (they bugged out once a week and were away from home for 9 months) and plays hard that needs to be brought back into the military esp. at the BN level.  Also the duration that a BN is split for supporting courses etc is brutal.  You have a school so you should have a permanent cadre of staff for ex number of years.  Numbers dictate this can't happen though.  I realize that a BN ends up being tighter after a tour but is that really acceptable?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (8 Aug 2004)

Oh and the States had 9/11 and still aren't taking defence very seriously so I think our country is done.


----------



## winchable (8 Aug 2004)

> Well Infanteer your optomism is a breath of fresh air



...infanteer.....optimism...No..NO...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...


----------



## greydak (9 Aug 2004)

My 2 Cents: 
   We are declining from a â Å“_golden age_â ?. The days of men who wanted to rise to the top of the rank structure to make a difference for the good of the country, not to line their pockets with tax dollars. 
    Why would you talk about reservists who â Å“_half-heartedly dedicate themselves to the reserves as a social club_â ?, not only is that far from the truth, but is goes against *your* optimistic ways.
    
    I am proud of my country, my fellow soldiers, my well skilled / multi-talented army and the way Canadians as a whole are seen by the rest of the world.
    
    I am not proud of the LSVW, civilian contractors doing jobs the army should and could be doing, fat out of shape people who do nothing but complain to the mir every time the can't do PT.
   
    So Who To Blame? The Jr. Ranks didn't decide to purchase the LSVW, they didn't hire the civilian contractors to run our army and they didn't lower the PT standards that turned us into a fat army.


----------



## Infanteer (9 Aug 2004)

CFL, I agree with what you said.   I seen alot of the same stupid shit when I spent a little time with Battalion.   However, I suspect the answers aren't as clear cut as they may seem; if they were, don't you think someone might have solved them by now.   I think Mid-Level commanders have alot of extra shit dumped on them from on high that prevents them from carrying out the most logical choice.   Of course, like numpty privates who can't do anything right, there is going to be officers who are incompetent asstards; this is inexcusable and I would pin this on a lack of professionalism of the Officer Corps as a whole in policing its own (again, an organizational issue).
---

As for Greydak's remarks:



> We are declining from a â Å“golden ageâ ?. The days of men who wanted to rise to the top of the rank structure to make a difference for the good of the country, not to line their pockets with tax dollars.



And when would that be?   Are you implying that their was a time when all soldiers and officers joined for purely altruistic reasons?   Granatstein has noted that the early 1950's to mid 1960's was a time when the military had sufficient resources and funding and the professionalism of our Officer Corps and our Ranks was considered top form.   But those were completely different times; you cannot hope to wind the clock back.

Sure we used to have better funding.   But then again we never required multi-million dollar strategic transport planes, support ships, and armoured fighting vehicles.   Sure we had the general support of the Canadian public.   However, that was a different generation, who in the span of 40 years experienced 2 world wars and an overseas police action.   Today's generation holds a different view on the military, the state, and authority in general.   We must adapt the force around these contingencies; going back in time is not the way to do it.



> Why would you talk about reservists who â Å“half-heartedly dedicate themselves to the reserves as a social clubâ ?, not only is that far from the truth, but is goes against your optimistic ways.



I saw enough in my 3.5 years as a reservist.   If you don't believe that their is reservists with this attitude, then you got your head up your ass.   How else can you explain reserve units of 220 troops on paper barely scraping together a platoon+ for exercise (funny, alot of people seem to need that time to study for exams...).



> I am proud of my country, my fellow soldiers, my well skilled / multi-talented army and the way Canadians as a whole are seen by the rest of the world.



As am I.   Why do you think that I and others around here who know that many things are right-the-fuck-outta-it continue to serve.



> I am not proud of the LSVW, civilian contractors doing jobs the army should and could be doing, fat out of shape people who do nothing but complain to the mir every time the can't do PT.
> 
> So Who To Blame? The Jr. Ranks didn't decide to purchase the LSVW, they didn't hire the civilian contractors to run our army and they didn't lower the PT standards that turned us into a fat army.



And you are blaming Canada's senior officers for an NDHQ (politically influenced) purchasing decision, an government departmental service contract, and a training decision that was very much influenced from political pressure to conform the military to some social experimental outcomes?   Did it ever occur to you that their was very likely senior level opposition against some (or all) of these issues (eg: The LSVW failed the military's testing procedures; result, government cleared the vehicle for use anyways).   Try putting some more thought into your accusations.


----------



## Pugnacious (9 Aug 2004)

CFL wrote: "Oh and the States had 9/11 and still aren't taking defence very seriously so I think our country is done."

Yes the level of  Apathy in Canada is pretty unsettling to me also.  
History shows that waiting for something bad to happen, and -then- reacting is never a good option.

On a personal level I have friends who can't understand why I want to join the Army Reserves.   
My answer to them is both simple, and Complex...the short answer, 'it's something I feel I have to do'.

Then I ask them what it means to be Canadian? Seldom do I get an answer beyond a 'beer comercial' answer.
So I'm not suprised that things are the way they are. 

No I'm not sure where this country is going Military wise, but I can tell yah it won't be due to any inaction on my part, and maybe that's what is going to save us...the hard working dedicated individuals.  Other then that I can see how in time we will simply be 'absorbed' by another more active and dedicated Country...prob' without firing a single shot.

Happy thoughts...
Cheers!
P.


----------



## skura (9 Aug 2004)

I couldn't give you a date...but way, way back...I think when Canada and the US we're still being populated by boat-fulls of Europeans, there was a war between the settlers in (what was then) British North America and the US...the Canadians we're badly out numbered and under-rated and weren't up to standards with their weapons and had the element of surprise thrown in their faces (pretty much like we are now) when the Americans tried to take over BNA in the middle of the night...and we kicked their asses!!  And just because they're still a powerhouse of a nation, who's to say we couldn't take them again?  Statistics, their weapons, their president, their men...okay, I'm getting a little carried away, but it's the Canadian spirit thats always brought us out on top (whether it's in our hockey players or our soldiers)...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (9 Aug 2004)

slow down there skura.


----------



## 12alfa (9 Aug 2004)

quote]
   Did it ever occur to you that their was very likely senior level opposition against some (or all) of these issues (eg: The LSVW failed the military's testing procedures; result, government cleared the vehicle for use anyways).   Try putting some more thought into your accusations.


Ah yes this may be true, but the right thing to do would have been to not except them, or maybe not run any cources on them, let them rot in full view of the press, and the Canadain people.After this goes on a few times I would thin we as tax payers get the point, would you? There   are may ways to tell the truth, but to make that desion we need leadership, and as we have seen all to may times with equipment that is faulty we don't get any from the goverment, and then again from our leaders. It takes LEADERSHIP to say NO!.

If we had taken this view we would not have all the equipment we now have thats total usless and I might add costing us when we need $ badly.
Now the LSVW's are rusting out and what have we to say? We blame the goverement, BS, our leaders are also to blame, they must be held to account, otherwise we could put Cpl's in charge if they are going to be yes men, it would save us a great deal of cash that way and get the same results, would it not?

Picture this... compounds across Canada with LSVW's (brand new) with 0 millage rusting out in front of the people of Canada, would this help?, maybe not but it could not hurt us any more, as this is what we have now, a veh thats at it's life end. Now we start all over again, and round and round we go....

The 3/4 lasted for decades......funny is it not?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (9 Aug 2004)

P.S.  The gov't tells the military leadership what to do.  Like it or leave.


----------



## Infanteer (9 Aug 2004)

Skura.   War of 1812.   Do some research; until then please refrain from posting silly posts like that.


12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you?   One can only fall on their sword once, and sadly, if that happens, someone will usually step up to do what their predecessor would not.   When the Minister says, I want x to happen, it is the lawful and professional duties to make it happen.   The intergration of women into the Combat Arms was a clear case of this happening.   How do we fix this?   Read my earlier comment; "It's unfortunate, but things are always going to seem pretty fucked up until their is a major shift in the way Canadians view defence, security, and their military."

There is something I would like to know (but probably never will for obvious reasons).   I had an excellent Platoon Warrant in Battalion who really cared for the troops and ensured that we were protected from alot of shit that got dumped down from higher.   Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole.   I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened.   What do you think.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Aug 2004)

> who's to say we couldn't take them again?  Statistics, their weapons, their president, their men...okay, I'm getting a little carried away



I'd say getting a little dumb.
Probably not a good idea to be talking about attacking the US even if your joking eh? You'd be surprised what they take seriously.


----------



## Pugnacious (9 Aug 2004)

For the record 99.9% Americans I talk to find the thought of Canada attacking them very amusing, and take it with good humour. 
Esp' when I post the War of 1812 Ren and Stimpy Vid I found.;D   Mind you I have stopped 'declaring war' when I come and go across the border...as they don't seem to smile at that anymore. LOL!

Back to the topic...
How does this situation ie.. the decline of the Canadian Military get fixed? 
What can the individual soldier do?

Or do we simply hum along with the death rattles, and hope for a conflict to fire up the political will?

Cheers!
P.


----------



## RCA (9 Aug 2004)

This what happens when you have a peacetime army for 50 years, and the civilization of the CF (ex Canadian Armed Forces). There is no one left with wartime experience to say. Stop, what do you think you assholes are doing. That won't work because....War clears the mind and get rid of the driftwood. The closes we have come is the early years in Yugo when shit was really happening. The warrior trg come into effect, mine awareness became important etc etc. Potentail combat sharpened the mind. I think the 3VP ultimately benefited from this in the long term when they went on Apollo.

The Army is full of good leaders, witness our overseas performances (with one glitch in Somalia).

As for towing the party line. When in postions of leadership, you protest in private. As long as orders are lawfull, you can make your concerns known and as forceful as you can. if you are still overruled, you say yes, sir and carry on. If you vehemently disagree, you can quit, but you never air the dirty laundry in public. And this goes from the   Plt WO up to the CDS. That is a function of leadership. So by saying the leadership isn't supporting us, you cannot say that for sure. Would you trust a Plt Comd who badmouthed the Coy Comd. I sincerely doubt it.

The first stage of moving the Army into a more viable force is increase it's visibility and make it something that Canadians are proud of and are willing to spend tax dollars on. That would be the first major step. The second would be determining what our role is internally and externally. Then with the money, we tailor our forces to those realities and then tailor our trg and equip to meet the forces required. Simple.


----------



## Marine837M (9 Aug 2004)

Ooops touchy subject.......

next...


----------



## skura (9 Aug 2004)

I never said anything about attacking the US...why you took what I said that way I have no idea but I can't control how any of you interpret what I say...you can take it how every you want to take it, but don't accuse me for something I didn't do...and Infanteer, if the only wrong fact from the story I told was that the date was missing, then it's still historically correct...the fact that I'm missing the date doesn't change the fact that it happened...


I know I got carried away, s*** I even admitted to getting carried away, so don't trash what I said because some of it may be farfetched because I know it is...all I was trying to say was if shit happens, we don't quit...read it again and if you still don't get it then I'm sorry


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Aug 2004)

Skura i sent you a PM to try and get my point across (and keep the topic on course).

It's unfortunate but i think the only thing that will really hit home to Canadians and instill the fact that we need to change how we do things is if an embarrassing tragedy happens. the only way many people seem to learn is the hardway.


----------



## Infanteer (9 Aug 2004)

RCA, bang on sir.


----------



## jarko (9 Aug 2004)

> On a personal level I have friends who can't understand why I want to join the Army Reserves.
> My answer to them is both simple, and Complex...the short answer, 'it's something I feel I have to do'.



Funny thing is when ever someone asks me why i want to join i say the same exact phrase "Its just something i have to do"

-------

Whoa, never thought this would be a topic breaker. The reason why i was asking this question is because i have completed 2 of my test so far in the application process for the regular force, I had my head skrewed on straight and strong and was determined to try becoming a great Canadian soldier, untill i recieved a letter from the Royal Marine Commandos (UK) that i would be able to go there and do my tests. I have signed up for the infantry and i was hopeing to make it my career. Hopeing that one day i will be given a chance to either join the SARTECH's or JTF2 . 
--------

On another note, what reallly turns me steaming red is when i tell someone that i signed up for the Canadian army and they start laughing and saying garbage about how "the army SUCKS". Yes i always try taking there heads out of their ass's and giving them a lesson. But now when i think about it, it seriously looks like its getting worser and worser. Thats why i am glad i can get some great opinions and thanks for the lessons in military history. This is a very good read!.


----------



## Marine837M (9 Aug 2004)

Join the Royal Marines if you have a chance...go on do it.....be the best...Commando training is ballbagging but once your through all that shit
you will be on top of the world.

30 weeks of hell.... for years of laughs,drinking,shagging,travel...the list goes on and on and on and on....

I would never put anyone off joining the Royal Marines.

Good Luck,whatever you do,keep me posted...

Marine837M


----------



## skura (9 Aug 2004)

Sorry to drag this topic off course (yet again) but this will be the last time, I figure that since this is where I started this I'd end it here as well...

I apologize for the comments made in my last few posts in this thread...I understand that since this is a website it's a lot harder to tell when someone's having some fun, playing around and getting carried away with their post, and when there being serious about every single little word in his or her posts...

I'll try to keep the personal opinions to myself and only post the facts after I've done a little investigating on the subject at hand...


----------



## 12alfa (10 Aug 2004)

[quote ]

12 Alfa, do you pick and choose the orders a superior passes down to you?  
Better question would be , is this order going to result in someone getting hurt? Gennerally no I don't, but then again I have good officers around me giving good orders. I have also seen bad orders, should I   speak up, or let them do damage?

I follow 99% of the orders given to me, as I have allways did. Now in my older years now, I will tend to voice my displeasure (behind close doors ) to anyone giving unreasonable ones.



 Have you ever wondered how many stupid and inane things have come down from NDHQ or the MND and have been successfully resisted or tactfully danced away by senior officers who believed it was bad for the troops and for the army as a whole.   I am willing to bet there has been a few circumstances in which this happened.   What do you think.

Yes this happends, but the we see the reversal of this also. Most of the BS is filterd out that can be filtered.

All though i still maintain that the current status quo of letting a major equipment (being faulty) to enter the system is bad for the army in general, and leds to more of the same. At some time someone has to make a stand for the good of the Army and the forces in general. If we had people who did this we would not have a sat system that costs millions but was never used, a tank upgrade that cost millions just to be withdrawn for service, a avgp upgrade/refit that cost millions just to take out of service, a m113 upgrade...ah well you get my point. Just following orders has never been a good excuse, in war and in peace.

What we need is a system that get the best bang for a buck, we don't have this now. Saying we must follow orders don't cut it in my view, standing up for the right thing will breed good leaders and be seen by the troops as such.
In any other busness this atitude is not the norm, we at my work would not last 1 year if we recev'd faulty equipment that "head office" sent us, nor would you i would think buy a car that did not past the required test.
But we as you pointed out must, for the reasons of "following orders"?

No this is not right, test are there to ensure our troops well being and said equipment to operate in a matter in which we deem nessary.
If we say and do nothing, we will remain in the state we are in, a fleet from 1/4 ton to MBT's that don't do what we need of them for a reasonable time.

The equipment we need should be tested and proven by the people who use them, not by the goverement, they are there to provide the funds, and only the funds for the best results. Unlike what we have now.

It's like   me buying jeans for my 19 year old daughter, it just does not work for her, lol

It's time for a change, or nothin will get better for those who will follow us, do you agree?

12Alfa


----------



## skura (11 Aug 2004)

lol...I know, I know...

STOP DEMOTING ME ALREADY!

lmao...just playin ;D

::EDIT:: Just remember though, there are bits and pieces of truth in there though...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Aug 2004)

Skura,
And a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing ;D


----------



## skura (11 Aug 2004)

okay, okay...enough already 

P.S.

Who demoted me again...lmfao


----------



## Pugnacious (11 Aug 2004)

Tech' speaking we were not 'Canadians' yet.

Also having Wellington, and his Veteran troops, and some kick ass angry Indians who hated the Americans, and  French was a huge help against the Yanks who at the time had mainly sketchy trained, and equiped militia filing the ranks of their little border raids.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=The+war+of+1812&meta=

Anyway...blah blah blah. (i'll promote you)  ;D

Cheers!
P. ;D


----------



## pbi (12 Aug 2004)

"Generals should be able to tell the politicans that we need to keep more troops at home so we can train new one". 


This is exactly what Army Generals like LGen Jefferies (the last CLS), LGen Hillier (the present CLS), BGen Fenton (the past commander of LFWA) and BGen Beare (the present commander of LFWA) have been doing over the last few years. The results include the  reduction of our Bosnia committment (Ops PALLADIUM/BRONZE), withdrawal of the force from Haiti (Op HALO) and the huge reduction of the Afghanistan force (Op ATHENA). The CLS aim is to try to get the Army a "breathing space" with the smallest possible number of troops deployed (no more than a single battalion group) for a couple of years so that we can tackle the huge training bill that has been accumulating and is now choking the Army, especially at the level of training NCOs (the backbone of the Army).

 " shouldn't take six months to a year for people wanting to join."

You're right. an Army forum, it's worth pointing out that under the unified "CF" system, the Army does not control the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group. All the ArmyCommanders have raised this concern about the "purple" recruiting system, several times, and the CLS has taken this on with the VCDS (who owns the CFRG) but the sad fact is that the recruiters don't dance to the Army's tune. The CFRG claims that a "clean" file (one with no complications, especially medical or criminal) can be processed in a few weeks. This is certainly true in a lot of cases, but the fact is that the medical review process is way, way too slow and this what seems to be causing the frustration. As well, the Govt of Canada insists on extremely strict medical entry standards, perhaps to avoid a large number of medical compenastion claims from people who get enrolled in the CF with a pre-existing condition. I have talked to our recruiting folks abuot the problem, and they state that some of the other problems are:

-recruits who don't bother to get all the information together for their application, or produce the wrong info, thus causing a delay;

-recruits with criminal records who must seek a pardon before enrolling (this takes time-it is a civvy process not military...);

-recruiters losing files (this doesn't happen as much any moer-they are much better now);

-Res units that fail to enrol an individual once the Recruiting Centre has completed processing. Enrolment in the Res is a unit function, ansd sometimes in our Brigade we have found uor units dragging their asses on this, which is extremely frustrating for the recruit and causes us to lose some of them.

All to say that there is lots of blame to go around, but we definitely need to speed up the process. The new "conditional enrolment" trial that is going on in the Reserve now may fix things, since it will allow a recruit to be enrolled temporarily pending the completion of their medical review. We'll see. Cheers.


----------



## Infanteer (12 Aug 2004)

pbi, good post, nice to see someone understands the point I am trying to make.  As well, I wasn't aware that General Beare had made general and was promoted to LFWA command.  Good to hear, I remember him as the Brigade Commander when I was augmented to 1VP and I thought he was a stand-up guy; I felt he easily connected with the troopies (I remember having a BS with him in the Gym in BiH).


----------



## Pugnacious (12 Aug 2004)

I'd like to point out for the record that my Recruiter was very proffessional, very informed, and very helpfull.   
He out lined exactly how some people get their files lost in the paperwork, and stalled by having un resolved problems etc.

Lots of good advice, and tips.

Cheers!
P.


----------

