# Vibram FiveFingers



## macknightcr

Curious to know if anyone uses these "shoes" and how well they feel they work.

https://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_footwear.cfm


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## dogger1936

I will tell yah in a few days! I was gonna order online but Ill pick em up in ottawa the next few days if I can. Makes sense to me, and was recommended by a few of my friends. Apparently takes a while to build up to what you normally run due to using differnt muscles and stuff.


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## Pokiey

They're great for building up foot strength, but be careful, you really have to work up to wearing them to jog/run.  If you go out too quickly you could really stress out/hurt your feet.  My suggestion would be to start with slow short walks (on grass or something similar to start) and wear them a little more each time. 

Lots of fun though ... and some of the looks you get are priceless! lol


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## gcclarke

I'm a big fan of mine. And yes, for the love of God, ease your way into using them. While they might decrease your chances of injury in the long term, not so much when you first strap them on. 

I also highly reccomend not ordering online initially. They're very fussy with the sizing, and either the sizing guide that Vibram has on their website is inaccurate, or I'm an idiot and can't figure out how to use it, as the size I initially tried on based on that guide was a good two sizes smaller than the ones I bought after trying them on.


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## macknightcr

gcclarke - I hope that I read the chart correctly becuase online is the only way to get them around here aside from driving a few hours.

I am going to take both of your advice in easing my way into them.  I don't want to do any damage with CMR coming up just around the corner.

What styles do y'all have?  I ordered the all black KSO, along with two pairs of the Injinji socks.


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## gcclarke

Well, I have at least heard that if you're ordering them off the Vibram website, they've got an good return policy if it's due to sizing issues. 

I initially had a pair of the blue KSOs. Strap broke on them so I took advantage of MEC's insanely generous warranty, and now have a pair of the classics in black. I think I'll stop by to try and also pick up a pair of the sprints later this week.


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## hotei

I have a pair, and I swear by 'em. They are great for working out, but I also find them nice for just walking to the local Timmies, especially once you get used to putting them on.

That being said, heed the warnings of others. You have to work up to log distance running in them, and even then you should avoid running on pavement or cement (which pretty much eliminates road running!) with them, as your joints will take a SERIOUS and unnecessary beating! I find them great for doing local hillwork on grassy slopes. 

They are also handy for rock climbing too!


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## cn

Very interesting, I've never heard of these shoes until now.  I'm gonna go down to one of the stores that carry them this weekend to try on a pair, all of you have definitely sparked my interest.


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## macknightcr

I just got my KSO's today, and I am really impressed by them.  I know y'all said to take it slow, but I had to workout and I had the shoes so I did an hour workout with them.  My legs feel amazing, but my toes felt a little weird being seperated like they were.  I am going to take running slow, but I really do want to hit the trails near my house and see how they hold up.


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## armychick2009

How did you find them macknightcr?

My friend in Italy is a marathon running coach, as well as her husband (he trains the olympic team there)... she just bought a pair at the NYC marathon when she was there a few weeks ago. She's been going into it gradually as well, just waiting for an update on her runs. 

I don't think I could handle these, material between my toes I think would drive me nuts!!

How does everyone else find that? I know one person mentioned something but - am definitely curious!

I know this isn't a BMQ thread but - I've been trying to toughen my feet before basic (literally, making them harder on the souls), hoping it'll help with the runs/marches/whatever else we get to go through. I'm wondering if this kind of shoe would help with that... any ideas from others? Think it'd work?


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## Pokiey

The material between the toes definitely takes a little while to get used to (for me anyway) but you get used to it pretty quickly.  This coming from a girl who gets freaked out by toe socks, they're just weird  

I don't walk in them as much as I should, but my feet are definitely stronger.  I also run in Adidas Adizero tempo running shoes.  They are crazy light but don't have a lot of support so they've toughened up my feet a lot too.  I've also heard that the Nike Free running shoes are good for that, but I've never worn them.


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## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

I have a pair and I think they're fabulous! I haven't done a lot of running in them yet, but I've done lots of walking and some hiking. 

It didn't take me long to get used to them, but I'm barefoot most of the time anyways. The only strange part was how they force your toes apart...I do find that it gives me better balance though. Just one complaint, they are very slippery on wet surfaces (or maybe I'm just a klutz) and I've almost wiped out a couple times when I wasn't paying attention.


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## armychick2009

I've been going barefoot outdoors as much as I can lately, hoping it'll toughen the soles of the feet. But, maybe this is something I can look into ....

I seriously don't know if I could deal with the material between the toes though... like Pokiey, the toe socks just don't seem.... right, ya know???  

Interesting about the slippery surface but - I guess if they are rubberised, it'd make some sense. (I don't think you're being a Klutz, I should hear back from my friend in Italy soon, I'll see if she had the same problem!)

Thanks!!!


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## macknightcr

I have run in them, and LOVE them.  The material between the toes is weird, but you get used to it pretty quick.  The shoes do toughen your feet, but I also walk around barefoot a lot so that probably helps too haha.  I ordered them from a website of a store I found on the Vibram website, because they were sold out everywhere else.  Good luck with your barefoot adventures.

One thing I do need to stress is taking it slow, it is very easy to injure yourself if you jump into running 3 miles a day or more.


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## Rogo

Until now I have never heard of these but will investigate them and maybe get them. They seem good and everyone seems to love them.  Please keep me posted as I am undecided.


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## Frank G

I just bumped into this thread, how convenient since I just bought a pair of KSO 3 weeks ago.   I'm used to running barefoot for short distances, sprints, mostly in trails and the VFF made it easier on my skin, on a longer run on asphalt. It's also an awesome ice breaker! Before you buy a pair, you might want to check out this website ( I thought it was rather amusing to have a forum just for the footwear) birthdayshoes.com. 

They truly are great for everything from power/Olympic lifting, through sprinting, hiking to water sports or simply wearing them all day. I don't recommend using them for sports though! No ankle support and not enough grip.  Next step is to check if they pass inspection.  ^-^


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## Jones28

Best decision you'l make when it comes to footwear. Steep learning curve, though, so go easy for the first 3-4 months. Just walk in them first, and let you foot muscles (that probably are barely awake) adjust to the change. Run short distances first on grass. Pretty soon, with patience, you'll be easily knocking back 10km ++...and it feels fantastic! 

I've had the KSO's for about a year, and I just recently picked up the Bikila, which are new this year and are specifically designed for runners (a little more padding where it counts  ) Wish I had them from the start....


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## hantzu

Anybody know if I'd be allowed to wear VFF during BMQ? Or at my phyiscal exam?


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## acooper

During BMQ you will be wearing your Army-issued items unless you have a clearance from the medics not to wear boots. As for the physical exam, that's a question better asked of your recruiter.


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## hantzu

Ha, I didn't mean wear my VFF instead of boots, but I meant for PT instead of traditional running shoes.

I'll just bring my VFF and my sneakers to the PT exam on Tuesday and ask the person whos running my test.


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## PuckChaser

I would be careful using them on BMQ. You will normally not be able to predict what you will be doing for PT, and the VFFs may not provide the ankle support you'll need for certain "surprise" activities. Once you get to your posting, normally there's a PT schedule to follow and pick the appropriate footwear.


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## hantzu

Thank you for the information.


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## dogger1936

I would be more worried about your instructors not understanding what VFF's are and giving you freif...and unwanted attention. I as a snr NCO have had issues with people trying to tell me they were "un authorsed" for PT and not "proper footwear". Mostly i was peole trying to sound important who ended up sounding like dolts....one even fell out of the run...anyway.

As for ankle support you dont need it. Which can start an excellent discussion aside from this.

VFF's are great however be prepared to meet resistance to closed minded individuals. It is the army after all!


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## Arctic Acorn

Glad to hear positive feedback on the VFFs. I've been hemming and hawing for awhile, but I think what sold me was the number of folks who had them on the "Not Since Moses" run at 5-islands provincial park this year. (one helluva fun race, BTW)

The trick is finding them around Halifax. Most stores can't keep them in stock.


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## TimBit

MEC has them... or order online, but be careful with the sizing... tricky as hell!


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## Arctic Acorn

They have them, but the Halifax location doesn't normally have them in stock. There's a place on Young St that does, but they're about 25 bucks more expensive. I may try on a few pairs there when they have some in stock next (which I'm told is hard to do...they sell them as fast as they get them in), and then order them from MEC.


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## Senf

I have bought a pair early September.  WOW, running in those is like running barefoot.  You don't have to worry about noting.  Your body will always remember how to run barefoot.  It's in the genes.  The only thing I can recommend is to avoid if possible hard surfaces like sidewalks and streets. Remember there is no support in them and almost no sole.  Go try them in a field, a running track, even in a hilly trail.  My most fun with them is when I'm running in wooden hilly trails with some patches of mud somewhere.  You can run in them and feel like a kid again. You come home all dirty, but what fun it is to finally run free.  Those shoes are washable with the garden hose.


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## armychick2009

Does anyone know if these can be found in the Saint-Jean, montreal area somewhere?

I might try to see if I can grab them my next outting, though I suspect I won't be allowed to try them out for a while    (not doing much running these days! argh!)


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## Senf

Hi, you can try a Montain Coop store, but I think they don't have any in inventory now.  I know the sport store on HW 20 near Beloeil, SAIL or something like that had it also.  Go to Vibram site and look at official stores list.


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## jacob_ns

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I would be more worried about your instructors not understanding what VFF's are and giving you freif...and unwanted attention. I as a snr NCO have had issues with people trying to tell me they were "un authorsed" for PT and not "proper footwear". Mostly i was peole trying to sound important who ended up sounding like dolts....one even fell out of the run...anyway.
> 
> As for ankle support you dont need it. Which can start an excellent discussion aside from this.
> 
> VFF's are great however be prepared to meet resistance to closed minded individuals. It is the army after all!



This. 

I'm on my QL3's Air Force side and both myself and another on my course had been singled out during PT by both senior and junior NCO's and directed that the Vibrams were little more than "swim shoes" and were not authorized to be worn during PT under any circumstance, regardless of the information we presented in our favour. The reasons for them not being allowed ranged from them being "not conservative in style" to them being a "safety hazard". The issue ended up going as far as the school chief who declared they were authorized to be worn and were not in violation of school policy or of CF dress regs, which solved our problem.


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## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Anyone have any idea how the "Classics" hold up on snow? I've noticed that they're slippery on wet surfaces so I'm wondering if they would be okay to run on snow with or if that's an accident waiting to happen.


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## dogger1936

-Jules- said:
			
		

> Anyone have any idea how the "Classics" hold up on snow? I've noticed that they're slippery on wet surfaces so I'm wondering if they would be okay to run on snow with or if that's an accident waiting to happen.



I know the KSO's are gonna be too bloody cold in the winter! I'm either running indide with em or spending some quality time on the threadmill this winter. I've found the kso's great on wet surfaces (running upstream rock hopping etc)


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## jacob_ns

jacob_ns said:
			
		

> This.
> 
> I'm on my QL3's Air Force side and both myself and another on my course had been singled out during PT by both senior and junior NCO's and directed that the Vibrams were little more than "swim shoes" and were not authorized to be worn during PT under any circumstance, regardless of the information we presented in our favour. The reasons for them not being allowed ranged from them being "not conservative in style" to them being a "safety hazard". The issue ended up going as far as the school chief who declared they were authorized to be worn and were not in violation of school policy or of CF dress regs, which solved our problem.



Apparently I need to update this. We were informed today that the head of PSP in Borden have declared Vibram Fivefingers shoes unsafe and inappropriate footwear and they are no longer allowed in the Buell Gymnasium effective immediately.


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## Arctic Acorn

Well I found a paor at the Trail Shop on Quinpool in my size. Tried them on at home, and one you get over the wierdness with the toes, you get used to them pretty quick. 

Went for a 5km run with them this afternoon, and had no major issues other than some knee and achilles pain (which I get normally) and a couple of hotspots in the toes. 15 minutes after my run, everything feels fine. They're so light you don't notice them on after awhile. Running on grass was an absolute treat. They have no ankle support, but I think after your feet get used to them and strengthen up a bit the extra foot control you get will mitigate any ankle control you might get with regular shoes. 

The only thing is that I have to learn how to adjust my stride. I'm not much of a heel runner normally, but these shoes really force you to adopt a forefoot strike. 

Verdict: I think this is the start of a beautiful relationship.


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## Jones28

The VFF are definitely one of the best on the market, but for those who are running in to some opposition I suggest you look into this blog that reviews all the 'barefoot' shoes on the market. 

Most look quite conventional (i.e. like a normal running shoe) yet still provide all (or most) of the benefits of, say, the VFF. 

http://barefootrunningshoes.org/

Read the reviews and see for yourslef which one suits your tastes. 

The Feelmax Osma's are supposedly pretty good. Anyway, hope this helps.


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## Senf

I haven't tried mines on snow yet and I'm not sure I will.  I have purchased for winter and for hard surfaces, Nike free, the best free running  shoes after Vibram FiveFingers.


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## Armymedic

jacob_ns said:
			
		

> Apparently I need to update this. We were informed today that the head of PSP in Borden have declared Vibram Fivefingers shoes unsafe and inappropriate footwear and they are no longer allowed in the Buell Gymnasium effective immediately.



Does anyone in Borden know if this is still the case?


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## MJP

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Does anyone in Borden know if this is still the case?



I wonder too although I won't be at Borden for at least another year and a bit. 

I also wonder at how they came to that conclusion, it is not like running shoes(or even lifting shoes for that matter) protect any better or worse.


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## Chilme

Has anyone put any serious miles on the VFF?  I have only heard from users that have less than a year/1 season on them.  I'm curious about long term use.


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## The Bread Guy

> All Army Action message 239/2011 is likely to step on some toes.
> 
> It prohibits the wear of shoes that feature “five separate, individual compartments for the toes,” such as the one pictured above. Such shoes “detract from a professional military image,” the message said. As such, soldiers are not allowed to wear them with the individual physical fitness uniform or when conducting physical training in military formation.
> 
> In truth, this is not a new rule. But it seems word either hasn’t been spread or adhered to ....


Source:  _Military Times_, 24 Jun 11



> On the face of it, this issue of what to wear whilst running isn't a big deal. But our Army captain is correct in asserting that one of the warning signs of deterioration in the military during peacetime is an emphasis on appearance over effectiveness.
> 
> By A Rifle Company Commander
> Best Defense culture of the Army correspondent
> 
> The Army has officially banned the wearing of Five Finger running shoes. Many garrison commanders have already done so, but the following order has made it official Army-wide:
> 
> _ALARACT 241/2011 REQUEST FOR EXCEPTION TO POLICY TO PUBLISH ALARACT MODIFYING WEAR OF IMPROVED PHYSICAL FITNESS UNIFORM (IPFU), DTG 231424Z JUN 11. This message modifies the existing wear policy for the (IPFU). There are a variety of minimalist running shoes available for purchase and wear. Effective immediately, only those shoes that accommodate all five toes in one compartment are authorized for wear. Those shoes that feature five separate, individual compartments for the toes, detract from a professional military image and are prohibited for wear with the IPFU or when conducting physical training in military formation ...._
> 
> What particularly gets me is the line, "detract from a professional military image."  I don't understand how the image of someone that takes their running serious is detracting from a professional military image. Professionals sometimes wear items/clothing that may look "weird" but serves a professional purpose. Anyway, I have had some Five Fingers for over a year, and I love them. They reduce shin splints, work your calves better, toughen your feet, and reduced my five mile run average by five minutes in three months ....


Source:  The Best Defence blog, 29 Jun 11


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## chrisf

Here I was hoping this would end in more discussion on effective/in-effective running shoes... nope, random executions...

Back to the original topic though, it's a rather flimsy excuse to ban the shoes... there's already plenty of variation in running shoes... one has to wonder, what sort of shift would result in them being re-allowed?


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## Swingline1984

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Here I was hoping this would end in more discussion on effective/in-effective running shoes... nope, random executions...
> 
> Back to the original topic though, it's a rather flimsy excuse to ban the shoes... there's already plenty of variation in running shoes... one has to wonder, what sort of shift would result in them being re-allowed?



Perhaps it is a safety issue.  All those loose toes flying around could poke out an eye or something.   :  As for saluting...oh well, part of the job and my arm needs the exercise.


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## Container

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> That's not what the article intended. The intent of this particular thread is to discuss the way ahead in a post combat mission Afghanistan CF. You will see the "spit and polish" types appear, and I'm one of them, to a certain extent (not extreme). What's the problem with a few ceremonial parades ie Trooping of the Colour?
> Besides, it was the US Army that banned them, NOT the CF. What the US Army does WRT to dress and deportment etc is not our concern. Our concern is the CF.



The last two miltary bases I trained on Edmonton and Esquimault had gym bans on 5-finger running shoes as well. I thought they would be happy the guy was running but no....ah well. I'll never understand. I'm sure some day when Im S/M I'll forget ever thinking that way!


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## OldSolduer

Container said:
			
		

> The last two miltary bases I trained on Edmonton and Esquimault had gym bans on 5-finger running shoes as well. I thought they would be happy the guy was running but no....ah well. I'll never understand. I'm sure some day when Im S/M I'll forget ever thinking that way!



Some time ago I watched a TV show about why some Africans run far faster than any other group. Short answer..they run barefoot which changes how you run. We run with shoes on, and have a substantial heel strike. Running barefoot makes you land on the ball of your foot, and in essence this is what the toe shoes make you do. I tried running barefoot on the treadmill and lasted five minutes. My calves were tender. 
Maybe they are banned due to injuries incurred by members.


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## Snaketnk

It says in the article that they were banned because they detract from a professional military image.

As far as I'm concerned that attitude is far further from a professional military image than any running shoe you could wear.

Just reading that makes me angry. That kind of attitude belongs nowhere near a military. I'll take this ad extremis and advocate the abolishment of body armour because you can't see the combat uniform worn under it, and therefore detracts from a professional military image.


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## Container

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Some time ago I watched a TV show about why some Africans run far faster than any other group. Short answer..they run barefoot which changes how you run. We run with shoes on, and have a substantial heel strike. Running barefoot makes you land on the ball of your foot, and in essence this is what the toe shoes make you do. I tried running barefoot on the treadmill and lasted five minutes. My calves were tender.
> Maybe they are banned due to injuries incurred by members.



I also tried to run barefoot ONCE. I believe the reason was injuries, in the case of my two base ban experiences, as opposed to image- you have to train a certain way to retrain your feet. Which I didn't- keeping with my long time mantra of making every mistake once. 

The issue I have with me and the guys I work with wearing these shoes for training is that we wear boots when we run, chase, and breach- why would I train differently? But I dont know enough about running that way to say that its not an effective way to train for boot running as well- it used to be if you saw a guy in minimalist shoes you knew he could run like the wind and I wouldnt offer him any advice. 

They seem popular now with every pear shaped young cop and soldier wearing them- this probably happened just prior to a huge spike in training injuries and required a ban to protect the softies from themselves.

As for spit and polish- I like it too. I like utlity when Im doing my job in the dirt, and I like spit and polish and pride when it can be applied. I think the reasonable leader can balance both. But is the professional military image applicable in footwear on morning runs? That kinda suggests a little micro management.

The injury side does have some merit. But hey- im not privy to how the American military does things- it could be a case of this was the easiest, quickest way to get the shoes gone until they could draft a formal policy on the footwear and has no malice attached to it at all.....


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## kawa11

I gotta say, this is the first time I've even seen these things.
Does anyone actually have any first hand experience with them that might suggest the potential injury claim as being plausible?


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## Container

Its well documented about the way you have to train with them at the beginning to avoid injury. And its also well documented that alot of folks dont bother doing it and hurt themselves. They aren't hospital injuries- they are running related strain and pull injuries associated with not adjusting how you run.

But they are enough to annoy people that work in the 'biz.

I have minimalist trail running shoes that I love but there is still enough "shoe" there that I didnt have to change anything.


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## Fishbone Jones

kawa11 said:
			
		

> I gotta say, this is the first time I've even seen these things.
> Does anyone actually have any first hand experience with them that might suggest the potential injury claim as being plausible?



There is a whole thread on them, if you want to do a search.


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## chrisf

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Besides, it was the US Army that banned them, NOT the CF.



I seem to recall them being banned a while back in the CF, however, on the grounds of safety rather then appearance.


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## acen

I have a pair (Vibram FiveFinger TrekSport), with a second pair on order (Vibram FiveFinger Komodo's, they sell out every year). These "shoes", and I will use that term lightly, are by far my favorite footwear. I have worked muscles I did not know existed until now (and I am not a slouch), but they change your gait and running technique into something that is more "natural" than what we have grown accustomed to with modern footwear. The previous assessment of barefoot running is entirely true, we strike our heels with much more force than our kenyan counterparts, which translates into much more force that jarrs our knees, hips, backs etc. Using the forefoot to absorb this impact (which translates to the calf muscles), we are using muscles instead of joints to absorb said forces.

I read extensively about the pros and cons before committing to buy a pair, and from my research I found that a lot of people in physio and rehab from the U.S. Army were seeing a lot of success using these shoes to rebuild muscle. Many runners who suffer from knee and other joint problems have switched to minimalist footwear and have rediscovered pain free running.

I will now be using these at my gym, I can just imagine how they will feel when doing squats or doing a leg press. 

Yes they look absurd. They will turn a few heads. They feel weird until your body adjusts. That said, I have no doubt that these shoes and the entire minimalist footwear movement are picking up a lot of steam for a reason.

Disclaimer: I do not use these for PT while on the CF's paysheet, but rather on my own accord.

As always, YMMV


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## MJP

Staff Weenie said:
			
		

> As for the 'shoes' - I'm tempted to try them - I wonder what they would do with plantar fasciitis???



They work to a degree in alleviating some issues like plantar.  Don't ask me how and the whys but a few friends that swear by them had fairly sever plantar fasciitis before using them and it seems to have been mitigated by wearing 5 fingers.

I personally find them hideous and wear minimalist trail runners like Container.  The main safety issue that gets brought up with the 5 fingers is that people are concerned about injuries to toes from falling weights.  A bit of a non starter considering that unless your wearing steel toed boots in the gym, most shoes worn in a gym provide little to no protection from that sort of thing.  The other issue that was already brought up was that the 5 fingers place more initial strain on muscles you don't normally use.  Like anything physical you have to ease into them and pushing oneself too far is afault on the part of the user not the shoe itself.


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## GAP

> The other issue that was already brought up was that the 5 fingers place more initial strain on muscles you don't normally use.



Is that not the same as those who change over to running barefoot.....?


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## daftandbarmy

Good old #6 didn't need shoes to make it to the Olympics.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGSjpUIGbZs


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## Trick

Ha, just thought I'd share. Turns out our friends to the south aren't big fans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SboXKbnLP2Y


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## Wookilar

OK, for one, ignore those news articles. They are American. Have no bearing on us whatsoever. The days of the CF making us wear Johnny-go-fast specials are long gone (MAN did those things suck!)

According to the "Physical Exercist Specialist" VFF's are are authorized for all areas of the field house in Gagetown (including the weight room and the combat training room) and the running track/trails out back. The Combat Fitness corner did ban VFF's but that has changed. 

I know a number of the Running Team here in Gagetown have been wearing them for some time.

I am waiting on "official" word from Borden on their policy. From Gagetown, unless something comes down on the national level, they are good to go, so I do not see why any other Base would have a problem with them either.

edit: CFB Borden, Buell Gym: From the Fitness Director, VFF's are cleared for use in the Buell Gym.

Wook


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## Redeye

I picked up a pair of Bikila LS after hearing so much about them and I'm just going to start slowly moving toward them.  I have all sorts of foot trouble that I'm finding working to strengthen my calf muscles etc is helping for, and this is the next logical step.  I'm just trying to learn the biomechanics for the foot strikes so I don't wind up making the conversion worse - hoping to have them ready to use for the Terry Fox Run this fall.


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## MJP

Wookilar said:
			
		

> OK, for one, ignore those news articles. They are American. Have no bearing on us whatsoever. The days of the CF making us wear Johnny-go-fast specials are long gone (MAN did those things suck!)
> 
> According to the "Physical Exercist Specialist" VFF's are are authorized for all areas of the field house in Gagetown (including the weight room and the combat training room) and the running track/trails out back. The Combat Fitness corner did ban VFF's but that has changed.
> 
> I know a number of the Running Team here in Gagetown have been wearing them for some time.
> 
> I am waiting on "official" word from Borden on their policy. From Gagetown, unless something comes down on the national level, they are good to go, so I do not see why any other Base would have a problem with them either.
> 
> edit: CFB Borden, Buell Gym: From the Fitness Director, VFF's are cleared for use in the Buell Gym.
> 
> Wook



Good to hear Wook.  There have been some knee jerk reactions to them in the past mostly from uninformed PSP staff.  I still think they look ghey...but am glad folks can train the way they want



			
				Redeye said:
			
		

> I picked up a pair of Bikila LS after hearing so much about them and I'm just going to start slowly moving toward them.  I have all sorts of foot trouble that I'm finding working to strengthen my calf muscles etc is helping for, and this is the next logical step.  I'm just trying to learn the biomechanics for the foot strikes so I don't wind up making the conversion worse - hoping to have them ready to use for the Terry Fox Run this fall.



Sounds like you are on the right path by taking it slow.  Most injuries I see with minimal shoes come from guys thinking they can carry on as if it was a pair of their old runners.  That and heel striking probably cause the most angst for folks in the first few weeks.  Look up pose running to see a good toes strike technique which can help with the transition.


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## Redeye

MJP said:
			
		

> Sounds like you are on the right path by taking it slow.  Most injuries I see with minimal shoes come from guys thinking they can carry on as if it was a pair of their old runners.  That and heel striking probably cause the most angst for folks in the first few weeks.  Look up pose running to see a good toes strike technique which can help with the transition.



The Vibram website links to a couple of great sources.  I'm basically going to treat it as a "learn to run" type course to build up, I'm not much of a runner to begin with but I've realized almost all my friends are, and so I'm going to try to get better at it.  I did my first ever race this weekend and had a lot of fun at it, and lots of campfire chat about VFFs let me to take the plunge on trying a pair.


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## Cyris

I just thought I would add, I am in BMQ now and there are a few recruits, myself included that wear vff's and they are acceptable footwear - even a few psp staff here wear them!


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## Tollis

The VFF and the entire Barefoot revolution is taking the fitness world by storm.  Being a trained footwear professional (Sportchek) I have some thoughts about them.  While the barefoot style will transform the way you run and work out they MUST be worked into slowly.  They will change the way you strike the ground while running from the conventional heel strike to a mid-foot impact.  Science is showing this to be more natural and, in the end lower impact then heel striking.  It has also long been known that humans are not designed to wear shoes, they hinder the way we impact the ground and weaken many muscles developed while using barefoot style footwear/no footwear at all.

For those of us that don't like the look of the VFF or like me have strange toes that make it VERY uncomfortable to wear the VFF.  Merrell has developed a shoe called the barefoot.  It uses a Vibram sole like most Merrells but is designed in the same way as a VFF.  IT has a closed toe box like a regular shoe and will provide basically all the same benefits as the VFF without the goofy/uncomfortable individual toe slots.

Barefoots and information about them can be found on Merrells website.


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## Armymedic

Tollis said:
			
		

> Being a trained footwear professional (Sportchek) I have some thoughts about them.



Being a "trained footwear professional" gives you a more educated opinion, but thats about it.

As for the Merrells, they are not the only game in town (just one brand Spotschek sells). All the major sport shoe companies are in the game making minimalist shoes that either are for "almost barefoot" running or made for the transition from traditional running shoes to the new barefoot running shoes.

From Sports medicine professionals, you should train to running "barefoot" starting with as little as 100 m, with a weekly increase of no more than 10% of your normal weekly distance. As a new "barefoot" runner, even if you are using the proper techniques, the greatest threat to your health is an Achilles tendon rupture, which will herald an abrupt end to your running season.


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## blacktriangle

I'm personally not brave enough to start training long distance with minimalistic shoes, but I would like to try them for crossfit style workouts and sprints etc, as well as general walking around in. Is there anything wrong with wearing a minimalist shoe around at all times? I am going to stick to my normal Asics for anything over a mile running wise, but I have been eyeing up the New Balance Minimus shoes.


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## MJP

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I'm personally not brave enough to start training long distance with minimalistic shoes, but I would like to try them for crossfit style workouts and sprints etc, as well as general walking around in. Is there anything wrong with wearing a minimalist shoe around at all times? I am going to stick to my normal Asics for anything over a mile running wise, but I have been eyeing up the New Balance Minimus shoes.



I wear my Merrels for pretty much anything athletic(Xfit, sprints, biking etc etc) with no real issues.


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## a_majoor

I'm rather curious as to how this works; for my particular issues (weak ankle due to repeated sprains, plantar fasciitis) I have been advised to wear "heavier" shoes which provide pronation control and can support orthodic inserts, which seeems to be the opposite direction to what these shoes offer.

While I am not in a position to purchase a pair anytime soon, I am curious...


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## a_majoor

An interesting article:

http://pajamasmedia.com/lifestyle/2011/07/19/pjfitness-did-nike-tear-your-acl/?print=1



> *PJ Fitness: Did Nike Tear Your ACL?*
> Posted By David Steinberg On July 19, 2011 @ 2:00 pm In Health and Fitness | 55 Comments
> 
> Among all the modern fitness conventional wisdom and habit which has been debunked over the past decade – led by Crossfit founder, trainer Greg Glassman, and his novel approach of actually seeing what works before telling his clients to do it – easily the most disheartening is that you’ve probably been screwing up your body before you even leave the house, and you’ve been spending a crapload of money to do it.
> 
> If you run regularly and stay abreast of the latest in the sport – or if you read the New York Times Book Review, which for the first time ever has brought some truth to this world (sigh…) — you’re likely aware of the “barefoot” or “minimalist” running movement. To get you up to speed if you aren’t: it’s exactly what it sounds like.
> 
> While it inherently presents as yet another “holistic,” “spiritual,” “wellness,” “politically correct narcissist” fad, it isn’t. Evidence — solid, objective evidence, not the “consensus” kind — and common sense are piling up in support of the minimalist shoe movement: cushioned, corrective running shoes have turned running into one of the world’s most predictably injurious activities by creating a biomechanically degenerative stride. They also cost a lot.
> 
> Here’s a good link to start with. Once you’re through, peruse anything you can find online about Dr. Nicholas Romanov and POSE running, and take a look at Christopher McDougal’s (NYT bestseller) Born To Run.
> 
> Here’s the basic technique (which actually doesn’t need to be taught, as by taking your shoes off and running you will automatically make the necessary corrections. It’s simply too painful to continue running improperly):
> 
> Take off your shoes.
> Run in place. You will notice that you are landing on the balls of your feet, and not your heels. Because that would hurt.
> Now … wait for it! … lean forward.
> What is it about cushy shoes that messes all of this up? It’s the strike point of your foot with the ground. Barefoot, you land on your forefoot. With cushy shoes, you come down on your heel. What’s the problem? Consider — how long have humans been:
> 
> a) Running with a forefoot strike?
> 
> Since approximately 200,000 B.C, late Pleistocene, when “Anatomically Modern Humans” originated in Africa:
> 
> b) Running with a heel strike?
> 
> Since 1972:
> 
> 1972 saw the release of the Nike Cortez, the company’s first running shoe. For the first time, runners had a shoe designed with significant cushioning underneath the heel, a development that most athletic shoes you’ve encountered over your lifetime have continued with. Here’s the Cortez:
> 
> This shoe cushioned the severe discomfort of running with a heel strike, which — when barefoot — sends approximately three times your bodyweight of force into your heel and up to your knee. Runners lengthened their stride and went with the heel strike, because they didn’t have to worry about landing softly anymore.
> 
> But that’s not what your evolution-designed body was meant to do, as is evident by the barefoot test above. You should land on your forefoot because your ankle is already a brilliantly designed shock-absorber: the ball hits, and your arch — like an arched bridge with a keystone — doesn’t fail like a flat foot would. Dorsiflexion occurs, the shock absorbing process, as the various muscles in your rear calf stretch like a spring. Then, just as your heel is about to crash down, comes the beautiful part: you’re already lifting your heel back off the ground, primarily using your hamstrings and hip flexors, for the next stride. No damaging heel impact jamming your tibia into your knee.
> 
> What should you be wearing instead of what’s in your closet? The benefit of athletic shoes lies in protection, not correction. The Converse Chuck Taylor does exactly that, and is worthwhile for a host of athletic activities: a slab of thick rubber under your foot, some rubber on the toe so you don’t stub them. It’s a good shoe. They are heavy though, and you can still get by with much less for running.
> 
> I’ve worn these for about three years. Yeah, they look nuts, but my left knee used to hurt, and now it doesn’t. They weigh almost nothing, have 2 to 4 mm of rubber on the bottom, and that’s it. Additionally, I just love being able to feel the world with my feet again — experiencing all the cracks in the sidewalks, the marble steps of a museum. You’ll get it if you try it. I also wear them at the gym almost exclusively:
> 
> They won’t fit everybody, though — they don’t yet have a model for folks whose second toe is longer than the first.
> 
> What else can you try? Several companies are marketing barefoot, minimalist options now — just look them up and try them. Also, look for “racing flats,” those feather-light running shoes that were previously only intended for race day on a cushioned track. They are actually the right idea for training, too. Merrell has a line of minimalist trail shoes that may even be suitable for court sports. Tread lightly here, though, as the friction of a tennis court may still be too much for these, you are still probably better off in Chuck Taylors. The Merrell’s are expensive, too. Another option for courts is skateboarding shoes, which are flat and tough.
> 
> Just see what works, and be sure to ease into it. You won’t have the right stride yet, plus your feet have likely atrophied from being coddled since 1972, so you’re primed for injury if you just jump right into a barefoot 10K.
> 
> But get off the cushy soles as soon as you can. Your knees and your wallet will be pleased.
> 
> Article printed from PJ Lifestyle: http://pajamasmedia.com/lifestyle
> 
> URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/lifestyle/2011/07/19/pjfitness-did-nike-tear-your-acl/


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## Infanteer

I did some POSE running with my Crossfit gym, and it is quite the change from the "Nike run".

I've recently picked up a pair of INOV8 shoes with a sole that is about halfway betweem a conventional running shoe and a "barefoot" shoe.  My wife gave me a strange look when I broke out my new running shoes".  It's a nice way to work the body into a miniamlist shoe after years of Nike conditioning.

Going "caveman" is the way of the future; we also look to a Paleolithic diet as a general food guide.


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## Arctic Acorn

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Going "caveman" is the way of the future; we also look to a Paleolithic diet as a general food guide.



Mmmm, steak...

As a further to my last, I've now done two half marathons with my VFFs (the latest this morning), with no real issues. 

For those who have made the conversion to VFFs, have you tried a run in sneakers for comparison? I did a 10k a few weeks ago just to see if there was a difference going back to cushioned sneakers, and it was horrible. The extra cushioning seemed to just suck the energy out of me, and I had a super hard time finding my stride. By the end of the run, my knees, hips and lower back were really aching as well. I normally had these issues with longer distances in my sneakers (15-20km), but after just 10km I felt like I'd gone a lot further. I can't go back.  :-\


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## gcclarke

I still do almost all my walking around in "normal" shoes. And on occasion I do run (such as when I notice that the bus I'm trying to catch is coming and I'm still 2 blocks away). And even for short runs like that, I've noticed they bloody well hurt, mostly in the shins. Not so when I'm in my Vibrams.


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## Redeye

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I still do almost all my walking around in "normal" shoes. And on occasion I do run (such as when I notice that the bus I'm trying to catch is coming and I'm still 2 blocks away). And even for short runs like that, I've noticed they bloody well hurt, mostly in the shins. Not so when I'm in my Vibrams.



I haven't started running a lot in them, but I put a lot of miles on them on this last vacation walking - I've found they are improving my balance substantially (part of the problem I have from previous foot and ankle injuries), and they're actually pretty comfortable overall.  And a good icebreaker - a lot of people look twice and ask what the hell they are.


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## Deleted member 30710

Borden allows them. I wore them for my express test in June. The PSP staff takes no issue with them here. CFSATE and CFSEME both allow them, and even have staff members wear them for unit PT.

It was heavily suggested for me to switch into them last year by base physio due to constant running related injuries. On my third pair, I now run 20km to 25km a week in them on pavement. I've been pain free since I made the switch and I no longer hate running. I have no joint pain. The only issue I had is waking up first thing in the morning my feet are stiff. You have to learn proper "foot stretches" before and after runs. Also your feet get wider and shorter and the arches get higher over time with use. my feet look really manly now.


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## Jones28

Looks like the US Navy just authorized the use of minimalist footwear. 

http://www.runblogger.com/2011/08/united-states-navy-authorizes-use-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Runblogger+%28Runblogger%29&utm_content=Google+Reader


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## The Bread Guy

The U.S. Army stands firm:


> .... The decision was made by Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond Chandler and his board of directors, which is composed of key command sergeants major.
> 
> “The decision was based on the lack of conformity with the Army’s conservative professional appearance,” said Hank Minitrez, a spokesman for Army G-1. “The Army continues to foster a professional, conservative, nonfaddish image in its soldiers, and they believe this type of shoe detracts from this appearance.”
> 
> Minitrez said the issue is not likely to be addressed again. And that is not sitting well with some soldiers.
> 
> “Wow,” said one Special Forces field grade officer who runs in such shoes daily. “I’ve been an avid runner for 20 years and have never had something as good as these. Bad call.”
> 
> The Army stands alone in that decision.
> 
> The Marine Corps allows local commanders to ban the shoes, but there is no servicewide ban. In fact, the headquarters battalion for the Corps’ top brass and support troops has approved them for PT. The Air Force has taken an identical stance.
> 
> The Navy on Aug. 5 gave the green light for sailors to wear the shoes. One sailor who does is Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (SW/AW) Rick West, Chandler’s counterpart in that service ....


_Army Times_, 29 Aug 11


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## Wookilar

.... and these are the kind of people that make us wear our fleece UNDER our shirts .... well .... at least it's not just us?  :

Wook


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## zander1976

Hey, 

I was running in regular running shoes for about 4-5k 3 days and had shin splints and other problems. I switched to these and I am now doing about 5k a day and 10k on the weekend on pavement. Start slow, I did 13k the first week I had them since they are so fun to run in and I was hurting for days. 

Ben


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## Armymedic

zander1976 said:
			
		

> Start slow, I did 13k the first week I had them since they are so fun to run in and I was hurting for days.



You should run more than a km the first time you use them, and then only increase by 10% of your pre-use distance per week.

Other than the calf pain, the risk of Achilles rupture is increased due to the workload on that tendon.


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## big45-70

I just picked up a pair of these for myself.  I just wanted to verify if they are good to go for BMQ?


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## Ayrsayle

big45-70 said:
			
		

> I just picked up a pair of these for myself.  I just wanted to verify if they are good to go for BMQ?



Highly recommend against it. I'm only a year out of the Mega, but anything besides actual running shoes were a no-go. Feel free to give it a try, but be prepared for some backlash for it.


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## 2010newbie

big45-70 said:
			
		

> I just picked up a pair of these for myself.  I just wanted to verify if they are good to go for BMQ?



There were a couple guys on my BMOQ last summer that used them. Some of the PSP staff wore them also. They had to deal with jokes at their expense about the shoes, but no one said they could not wear them.


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## Jarnhamar

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> You should run more than a km the first time you use them, and then only increase by 10% of your pre-use distance per week.
> 
> Other than the calf pain, the risk of Achilles rupture is increased due to the workload on that tendon.



I'll second this.

I tried running just under a KM in my Minimus MT10s and was a little sore but not too bad.

Just ran a bit over 10Km for my second run.   My time average suffered horribly and my calves and hips feel like I rubbed lava on them, and it's getting worse.

I went full retard and am suffering for it.


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## dimsum

I've noticed that with the VFFs, some muscles in my right foot (the arch) get strained more often and I limp around for about a week.  Any recommendations on how to speed up the healing process?


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## PViddy

Your going to find all sorts of muscles start to ache that you didn't even know you had.  I found doing some calf/achilles stretches always helped before and after.  You will also want to stretch out some of the muscle that clips into your shin from your foot (flick your feet up and up down seated or find some stairs and do raises while standing over the edge).

As for healing, a little A5 after a run never hurt.  I'm also, more so, a cyclist and use Spider tech tape http://www.spidertech.com/ fairly often in my rides and found it worked wonders on long runs as well.  I can't tell you why it works, just that it works miracles!

cheers,

PV


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