# The Sleep Superthread- Apnea/ Disorders/ etc.



## Mud Crawler

I believe you guys gotta go to bed at 11pm and wake at 5, right?Well when u first joined the forces, did u guys have difficulty adjusting ?


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## Honi soit qui mal y pense

Mud Crawler,

The late nights and early mornings are usually only for course and on ex.  I don‘t think that anyone in battalion (although I stand to be corrected) follows this routine in garrison.

Nevertheless, on course, it can be very demanding to stay alert, perform the physical tasks required of you, and practice good coursemanship when you are dog tired.  Most people get used to it quickly, and it becomes a fact of life.

Don‘t underestimate the value of coursemates.  When everybody is in the same boat and pulling together, it doesn‘t matter if you haven‘t slept in days; you‘ll get the job done.  One more thing; everything looks better in hindsight.  If you are lucky enough to have a good course, you will look back on it and your coursemates with fond memories and might catch yourself wishing you were back there (usually only the really insane think this way).

Good luck

Civitas et Princeps Cura Nostra


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## fusilier

Yes you adapt to getting six hours sleep.  You usually don‘t even get that, because you have to shine your boots and get ready for next morning‘s inspection.  
When you‘re in the field you‘ll get little or no sleep, you‘re supposed to get four hours forced rest per day, but sometimes you don‘t.  Weekends off will definitely mess you up, because all you‘ll want to do when you get home is sleep.  So come Sunday night when you get back to base, you can‘t sleep.  Before I joined up, I had to have atleast 8 hours sleep at night to function properly, now I have no problems working with only six hours sleep.  Even five will do.  There‘s a point where you get tired enough that you don‘t care about pain and stuff like that.  Hey, sleep deprivation can kill you after six days.  It‘s funny after two days without sleep, you start seeing things at night.  One time a sergeant of mine rented a pink bunny suit during an Infantry QL3 final ex.  He walked right in front of the recruits in plain sight, through fields and such.  The instructors all had a good laugh when they saw the amount of people who reported seeing a pink bunny and those who clearly thought they were hallucinating from sleep deprivation, and refused to report it.


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## Michael OLeary

You might laugh, but it is a striking example of how quickly and fundamentally sleep deprivation and exhaustion can affect soldiers (or their commanders).

On courses you have to keep in mind that some exercises are for teaching, and troops need to be well-rested even on the fourth or fifth day to be absorbing the new material you are delivering. Test exercises and unit training may have other objectives, but the bottom line is that rest routines are a basic and necessary part of field training. 

Also remember that exhausted leaders cannot make swift and rational decisions with consistency, nor can they effectively motivate tired troops.


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## Brad Sallows

Adding to that, I am amused by the impression held by leaders and followers alike that the people at the top end of the chain should necessarily deprive themselves of requirements (mainly sleep) until those lower down are satisfied.  This is generally a sound leadership philosophy, of which my interpretation is that it prevents neglect.  However, it is also in the interests of the soldiers to ensure the leaders make sound decisions.  Fortunately most NCOs recognize when to encourage the junior officers to get some rest (something all 2I/Cs should add to their list of responsibilities - remind the I/C to get some sleep). I would be very reassured if the unit CO or brigade commander received 8 hours rest each day even if I only had time for 4.


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## jlf6

I put a search up for the topic and found nothing so I figured I would try my luck with the most overworked part of the military... the infantry.  
    Basically I would like to start a threat on various tips and tricks for dealing with drowsiness caused by sleep deprivation.  On those long excercises when you are running on about 2 hours of rack a night for like 2 weeks what are some you your guys tricks for staying awake and alert on sentry?  What about while doing a recce and you are lying in the same position for a long period of time?  Caffeine pills?  Stabbing yourself with yourself with your bayonet to illicit a sympathetic nervous system response? (j/k)   Anything you guys might be able to offer would help the majority of us newer troops.


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## chrisf

Caffeine pills aren't any good, in the short run, they'll keep you awake, in the long run, IE more then a couple of days, you'll just wind up more tired, and dehydrated/sick to boot.

Chewing gum helps a little, more so at night. Generally being healthy and in good shape helps the most. Also, never forget the old saying "When in doubt, rack out".


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## KevinB

Chew - Nicotene.
Coffee.
Caffeine.


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## dutchie

I find a brew up when I'm real groggy or even a hit on the ol' flask keeps me going at 0-dark-stupid (non-alchoholic...of course   ). As well, making sure I don't pound the caffiene constantly throughout the day helps too - save it for when you need it.

Finally, you'll get used to sleep deprivation. It takes some mental discipline and you'll eventually develop your own tricks and potions. Of course, a healthy fear of a boot upside the head from your Section Commander if he finds you sleeping should help too!

Good luck, stay awake, and watch your arcs.


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## winchable

I now sleep on average 2 hours a night so I can help you out here. 

Nothing, absolutely nothing that you can eat, drink or smoke will do much. It requires mental discipline like caesar said.
Activity is the best thing to do, keep yourself busy and you'll never sleep.

Dealing with the sdie effects of that is another thing...


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## Stomper

Although I may never have been _that_ sleep deprived (I wasn't infantry), when I was really feeling the effects of not having enough sleep I always just tried to avoid making myself comfortable, especially on sentry. I would try to stay kneeling rather than sitting and just kept looking around rather than continuously focussing on one spot.  Also, I tried not to allow myself to get nice and warm by bundling up (but not too cold either).

But, also, I have never been sleep****ed for longer than a week so my technique might not apply for longer than that.

I found some of the toughest times to stay awake were during some of those boring classes while on course (the ones that you know you won't be tested on).


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## Greg_o

KevinB said:
			
		

> Chew - Nicotene.
> Coffee.
> Caffeine.


Caffiene gives you a short high then you go down...thatd probably be a bad thing to try..


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## KevinB

Its been working for the last 14years for me...  ;D

Obviously you cannot mainline it into your veins all times, but you can use the above to help during period of extreme stupour...

After 72hrs the body begins to crash - nothing much more you can do mentally - then you need to start looking at suplements - but get ready to pay the piper at the end.

I have done about 5days of less than an hour a night - and I was a zombie and sleep for nearly 48hrs after that - I was stungout and hungover on caffiene.

I find chewing redman both gives me a slight nicotine peark and the chewing keeps me moving enough I cant nod off.


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## Matt_Fisher

I will second what Kevin said about chewing tobacco to keep awake.

For someone like me who doesn't smoke and only chews to keep awake, it does wonders to keep you up.

The only downside is that if you haven't chewed in quite some time, it can really give you a bad headache, upset stomach or diahorrea and it tends to dehydrate you because of the increased salivation.  I don't think that the occasional chew for keeping you awake is enough to get you addicted, but everybody's different.


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## winchable

Right, I think we could modify a camel back for this dilemma.

First, get an IV drip from the hospital,
Insert the IV drip into camel back with drip needle coming where mouth hose would have come.
Fill the Camel back with a solution of diluted caffiene.
Insert IV whenever you feel sleepy.

Ta da


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## Gouki

I should give that idea a try.. because it gets so boring here at the GSH (the gym) that sometimes I'll have to snack on M&M's to keep my sugar up so I don't fall over and knock myself out on my desk.

Interestingly enough, I have been curious about this question for the last few weeks now as I want to learn how to keep awake/fight sleep for obvious reasons. I asked a few 2VP's an hour ago a few minutes after I saw this question, and they all - except for one, basically said "light up" 

The one guy who didn't recommend lighting up a smoke didn't smoke himself, and instead said that if its winter he tries to keep his face cool enough to fight off sleep, and if its summer he puts some sort of oil or some junk under his nose and when he inhales it keeps him sharp. I wish I could remember exactly what it was he puts there but from a practical point of view it looks like it has its benefits..after all we're always breathing, so a strong smell could work wonders - albeit most likely give you a big headache in the process.


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## Art Johnson

The best thing is a good buddy. I'm one of those guys who if he gets his head within 6" of the horizontal goes to sleep. The most popular phrase I used to hear was "for goodness sake wake up", or something like that. Ambush patrols were not for me I had to keep moving.


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## rifleman

jlf6 said:
			
		

> I put a search up for the topic and found nothing so I figured I would try my luck with the most overworked part of the military... the infantry.
> Basically I would like to start a threat on various tips and tricks for dealing with drowsiness caused by sleep deprivation.   On those long excercises when you are running on about 2 hours of rack a night for like 2 weeks what are some you your guys tricks for staying awake and alert on sentry?   What about while doing a recce and you are lying in the same position for a long period of time?   Caffeine pills?   Stabbing yourself with yourself with your bayonet to illicit a sympathetic nervous system response? (j/k)     Anything you guys might be able to offer would help the majority of us newer troops.



The bayonet trick would work better if you had someone else stab you evertime you looked like you were nodding off.


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## foerestedwarrior

One thing i liek to keep with me, is the penut butter/honey/jam pakets from IMP's. I just suck on one when i get groggy, keeps me awake. Or the best one yet, in a defensive, with your fireteam partner, with helmets on. We ran head first into eachother, well our head/necks were so sore, that we couldnt sleep for the rest of the night. 

Oh, and not sleepong for more than four days, causes irreversible brain damage. Its the magic rule of 4.


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## mo-litia

Well, it's zero dark thirty and I'm still awake - anybody out there know a good cure for insomnia?  :crybaby:


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Decaffinated tetley tea, been drinking that before bedtime during "dry January" and been sleeping like a baby, even after night shifts.


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## Michael Dorosh

Neo Citran works wonders too....


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## camochick

One word- Nyquil, its the universal cure for everything. Hey, your kids bothering you, give em some nyquil, they'll settle down, your cat bothering you, give them some nyquil, it wont be awake for long. HEHEHEHEHE >


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## winchable

I am the greatest insomniac of all time, thanks largely to my job which requires backshifts.

The best thing for it is simply not to try and sleep.
Just..give in to the insomnia and you will find yourself sleeping in no time.
It's the oddest thing.
DVD's help a little too if you've got a player in your room.
You also might have some issues you need to work out (in your head) which are preventing you from sleeping, so it might be best to try and identify and solve them.

But like I said, fighting to sleep will only keep you up, so revel in your insomnia, give in and you'll find yourself sleeping in no time.


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## Scratch_043

I have a similar problem, in that when I do sleep, I wake up 2 or 3 times durring the night, for no good reason I just wake up, it is very disturbing to the sleep pattern / level of energy durring the day.


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## Sheerin

I'm having a bit of insomnia at the moment too.  Before the Christmas break I was going non-stop, staying up to ungodly hours and then only sleeping for a little bit...
So over the break I caught up on mysleep - in a big way.  Now I can't seem to break the habit.  

Gravol works wonders.


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## fir_na_tine

I'm an insomiacas well, it's never very fun. But if you drink decaf tea that usually helps a lot, if not read a boring book while listening to oprah music.


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## GIJANE

Try reading a really boring book

Jane


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## Cliffy433

The "other issues are bothering you, solve them and fall fast asleep" is the second best thing I can think of.  The "ignore it and it will go away" is a close third.  I cannot advocate nor recommend the use of medication, or alcohol - medical ethics and all that stuff.

However, there's one thing that has not yet been mentioned.  Due in no small part to the fact that the general public and minors have access to the page, I imagine.  Just remember, "Everybody does it, no one talks about it."  Unless you're in the field or operationally deployed and then everybody talks about it too.


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## chrisf

Cliffy433 said:
			
		

> However, there's one thing that has not yet been mentioned.   Due in no small part to the fact that the general public and minors have access to the page, I imagine.   Just remember, "Everybody does it, no one talks about it."   Unless you're in the field or operationally deployed and then everybody talks about it too.



I usually suggest it as a way to kill those 20 minutes between when you finish lunch, and before you go back to work. (You are referring to reading "Good House Keeping" magazine right?)


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## Gunnar

Get up, have a bowl of Shreddies.  There's tryptophan in milk, which is a producer of melantonin, which helps you sleep.


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## Scratch_043

yeah, if I can't get to sleep, I have a warm glass of milk, but I still end up waking up 3 times a night.


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## JasonH

I've had problems since elementry with going to sleep and just when I thought I was over it it's hit me for the past week.  Goto sleep at 6am and wake up at 8 am... GOD what a shitty way to start it off.  I hafto have absolutetly no energy in me to goto sleep, if that means running outside in -15 weather during the winter I'll do it.  :'(


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## Gunnar

> yeah, if I can't get to sleep, I have a warm glass of milk, but I still end up waking up 3 times a night.



You need the Shreddies.  Keeps your tummy full of the milk, so you sleep.  Shreddies are the miracle food.  If you only drink the milk, you'll wake up 3 times a night.


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## bossi

A number of "household" remedies have been mentioned.
Basically, eating something that'll cause the digestive system to kick in coincidentally reduces the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain (hmmm ... that's enough out of you, Cliffy!)

A bowl of cereal was often recommended, however a professional nutritionist recently told me it's not the best (ditto for another version I heard in England - a spoon of peanut butter).

The downside to this method is that the food "lies on your stomach" ... so, it's a trade-off between getting some sleep while simultaneously adding to your hibernation layer ... or ...

Some other professional advice I received could best be summarised as "distraction" - as also mentioned, if there's something on your mind that's keeping you awake you can either deal with it, or not (and, yes - this can be problematic when it's something in your subconscious ... since it's therefore harder to deal with if you can't immediately put a finger on what's bothering you ...).

Thus, reading a boring book is okay (a variation upon "counting sheep"), except that it tires your eyes (ditto for watching TV) - there's also the danger of reading/watching something that's interesting which keeps you up (shut up, Cliffy - no sheep jokes ...)

There are tons of traditional/conventional relaxation techniques - "visualising" yourself asleep; starting with your toes, then your feet, ankles, calves. etc. (again, a variation upon counting sheep).

Another interesting one was to keep your eyes wide open as long as you could - staring - until it was impossible to keep them open (then, when your eyes were recovering/jammed shut ... sometimes it "forced" you to fall asleep) - it worked when I was younger (and carefree), but I haven't bothered with it lately.

Whatever you do - don't think that weight-lifting/the exercise bike/whatever and tiring yourself out will help (i.e. not at zero dark thirty).  You'll only wake yourself up, run the risk of waking up other people.

Alcohol is a personal choice, but it's a depressant - and, I've seen too many lives ruined by it.

Exhaustion seems to work the best - I've always been able to sleep well on operations or exercises, and even when I'd only get two or three hours of sleep ... they were excellent quality (!)

Finally, I've found that Army.ca (and the Internet in general) doesn't help me get to sleep - so, one IA and Stoppage is to log off ... which is what I'm going to do now ... !

Sweet dreams, everybody! ^-^


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## Scratch_043

well, I got a cold yesterday, and bought a bottle of nyquil on my way home, man, does that help me get to sleep. Must be the 'non-medicinal ingredients'


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## bossi

ToRN said:
			
		

> well, I got a cold yesterday, and bought a bottle of nyquil on my way home, man, does that help me get to sleep. Must be the 'non-medicinal ingredients'



Many pharmacies, department and some grocery stores have their own brand and its' cheaper
(e.g. Shopper's Drug Mart, Wal-Mart, Zellers, Loblaws ...)


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## Gunnar

I don't imagine it's likely, but I thought I'd ask...

What are the possibilities of getting in the CF with Sleep Apnea?


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## Benoit

I guess thats a question you will have to take up with a recruiter. It can become a problem I would say especially during training where your sleep at night is very important. although if you train hard enough you shouldn't have a problem getting to sleep in the night time .


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## tomas

My roommate in borden was released from the forces due to having sleep apnea.

his problem was he requires a ventilating machine in order to sleep ( apparently developed the problem after getting into the forces.. i have doubts but..still) 
anyway he was sent to sq where he was given a medical chit becuase he requires the electrical device in order to sleep
which means that he is undeployable, therefore unemployable according to CF policy. 

so if you require a ventilating device, ie electrical device to sleep. then your chances arent that great.
if not.. go ahead

i just know what they said to him. though he was in the forces for quite a while before he got released due to it..


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## FITSUMO

there are different degrees of sleep apnea, there are some that need the CPAP machine because they have over 200 interruptions an hour and then there are those that have very mild SA.  The mild cases can get away with not using the machine( for the most part), if your SA is mild you can use breatherights and that is enough.  THe sever cases need the machine as they just are not getting any true sleep( neither are their room mates).  From my understanding( not a doctor) if you or anyone you know snores then that is a mild case of SA.  I know someone that is 031 and has been for a few years and he has SA but it was very mild, he lost a few pounds, and now he no longer needs the CPAP.
If you have been diagnosed as having SA then you should have had a sleep study and that would tell you if you have mild or heavy SA


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## canadianchick

My dad has SA, during the night he randomly stops breathing and then after 30 seconds or so he starts again, he also snores like a train, but he didn't even no that he stopped breathing, It was my mother who made him go in for it because, it would scare her and she thought one night he would stop and never start again... he does not use a machine but he changed jobs because they told him it was mainly because of working nightshifts and then dayshifts and then nights again.


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## Gunnar

No, I'm well-acquainted with Sleep Apnea.  I have the machine.  Just wondered.  I can have my eyes fixed, but apnea is a little trickier.


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## raymao

Reading all of these posts in regards to the enrollment medical have made me wonder if my health history will prevent me from joining.

When I was in high school I was extremely athletic, on the wrestling, football and rugby teams. Even after high school I eventually started my own landscaping company which kept me in shape.

Unfortunately, into my late 20's I continued to smoke a pack a day, and after giving up my landscaping business my lifestyle became more sedentary. My weight increased from an average of around 180 lbs. to nearly 220 lbs. Along with the weight came the health problems... first symptom... snoring. Diagnoses = Sleep Apnea. Bought the CPAP. After learning about all of the health problems that went along with sleep apnea I scheduled a general check up with my family doctor late in the fall time last year. Sure enough... Hypertension (high blood pressure) and Hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol). The only thing left on the chart I think was getting lung cancer and being diagnosed with diabetes (this is not trying to be funny). Time for a serious lifestyle change.

I started with my diet to minimize the cholesterol intake. I was prescribed with Avalide (Irbesartan/HCT) 150/12.5mg to manage the hypertension. Worked like a charm, 120/80. Now the smoking... I'd like to tell you I quit the day I found out about my health problems, and I did. And the next week I quit again. Then 3 or 4 more times after that. This past month has been the best so far or else I wouldn't even share my experience. My weight is down to 195 lbs. and I'm still working on bringing it down. I recently had a BIA done to analyse my body fat, it was at 26.9% when I weighed 204 lbs. putting me just into the 'overweight' category by a couple pounds. At 195 lbs. I have just ducked into the 'normal' weight for my height of 5'6" since my non-fat body mass is at 149.2 lbs. My target weight is 170 lbs. before the end of April at which time will be at an athletic body fat level. I plan on trying to get myself off the CPAP and high blood pressure treatment all together at that time. Obviously I will discuss these matters with my personal physician but I wonder if anyone can tell me to what extent these circumstances may lead in regards to applying for the CF. If it helps to mention the positions I am contemplating, I have the background education as a logistics officer and the transportation operating experience to consider armoured. Any helpful comments would be much appreciated. Thanks.


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## Hadrian

I don't know alot about the particulars of your condition, but If I were you I would at least attempt to follow your dreams and goals. It sounds like you are making a great effort to get back into shape, so when you are ready why not give it a shot?  On the bright side, my brother was applying for infantry reserves and he was medically declined twice, one because of blood in his urine, another because of a condition very much the same as sleep apnea, for which he had a sinus operation. After the operation he was cleared, declared fit and ready to go.

The only way you will ever know is by placing yourself into the system.  Speak with your doctors and by all means, speak with a recruiter at the CFRC.

Good luck, and keep reaching for your goals!


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## combat_medic

The best advice is to continue on the path you're already on. When you want to apply for the CF, make sure you obtain copies of all the medical documentation relating to your condition, particularly when you're taken off the meds and given a clean bill of health. Get contact information for your physician, and be prepared to answer a lot of questions, but the more legwork you do before you show up, the easier it will be.


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## Wookilar

Waiting to get my CPAP machine (my wife can't wait to get a good nights sleep  :boring after spending a few nights in the sleep lab.

Does anyone have any experience with taking the CPAP to the field or overseas? All the techs could tell me was the capabilities of the machine, not how the Army is actually allowing them to be used (if the CoC even know they exist). Silly place that used to be called NDMC, very nice people, but they really need to get out of Happy Valley once and awhile (not the Goose Bay one, the other one).

Any experiences (FIRST-HAND) or info on this would be greatly appreciated.


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## shadow

A fellow on my JLC back in '98 used one, and he was only permitted to do the JLC portion, not the JNCO portion because it was in the field.  Don't know if anything has changed since then.  Anyone else?


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## Armymedic

You need to plug it in...

Overseas, you'll need a power converter for the places that do not have standard power. And if your in the field, you'll need a power source.

Regardless, your fellow troops will WANT you to have your machine, so the rest of them can sleep.


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## orange.paint

We had a guy with the machine and he was exempt field.He was also released as we are a field unit.


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## Wookilar

That's the sort of thing I'm worried about. Not looking to get out of the field and the sucker comes with a battery pack, dual voltage, self-contained, yadda yadda, but everyone I ask (doctors and medics) just tend to shrug when I ask if this goes on my med docs as some type of category.


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## orange.paint

the guy I knew was on his second B.E and was allowed to finish off his B.E and then was medically released.I'm totally guessing at this but maybe you could get a medical O.T to another trade.But all in all you will get two years to sort your stuff out before release.


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## 392

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> I'm totally guessing at this but maybe you could get a medical O.T to another trade.But all in all you will get two years to sort your stuff out before release.



Hmmmmm......interesting thought. 

I was finally diagnosed with sleep apnea three years ago, and I am NOT anywhere near being released nor have I been put on category or offered a medical OT. And to top it off, I also belong to a field unit  . I would think your statement is a little bit blanket like, and not true in all cases.

I have a CPAP machine (doesn't do a damn thing for me except wake me up when I try to roll over and the mask squashes up my face  :blotto: ), but it's never stopped me from deploying to the field or on operation. BUT - I don't take it with me to the field or overseas for obvious reasons (can't plug it into a tree or a pile of sand   ). So most days, I just trudge throught the tiredness and soldier on with the aid of an XL Tim's.
There are surgical alternatives, at least in my case, which I am currently waiting on. But the Drs I have seen at least all agree on the fact they aren't always successful even when performed.

Wookilar, it's really up to you to determine if your Apnea will affect you being put on category, as you are the one who knows best how it is affecting you and whether or not you still do your job proficiently due to the condition. For what its worth, according to the repiratory therapist I was seeing in G'town, more the 75% or so of males in the CF have Sleep Apnea, so take that for what it's worth....


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## orange.paint

By no means do I say everyone who has this will be released.I'm far from a medical pers (knee bones connected to the...the...) but I know this is why one pers from my unit was released last year.Now maybe he played it up and said he couldnt do anything,couldnt live without it etc.

He did not participate on field ex's and was put in admin troop and remianed in his shack room at night so he could go on his machine.Also I remember he had to be attached to it for a certain amount of time per day.

Yep could be a blanket statement but it's what I've seen in the past.Guess it would be how much it impedes your job,in his case it made him useless.


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## Wookilar

392,

Info like yours is exactly what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, surgery is not an option for me. I'm pretty sure I can survive in the field or across the water with out the CPAP (seem to have survived so far  :boring, but I was wondering what the docs have to say about it. I finally get to see the specialist at the end of the month. No way am I going on a category  :threat:.


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## FateumetMeum

wook,

as per the med docs....yes you will definetly have it listed as per a medical request. Like having to get tylenol for arthristis.
you have a breathing problem, sleep apnea is serious enough to distinguish you from all that don't require one.
in the feild you are a hazard, sorry dude, but I think you could put these peices together yourself.

My suggestion is to find the procedure needed to get rid of your snoring. nasal septum investigation? scan of the "old" sinus may help.
I had a good freind told he was non deployable because of diveticulosis, and that is just a indigestion problem but due to his need of "extra" care and his prescription kept him from finishing batt school. So GOOD LUCK.


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## Wookilar

It's not the snoring, it's the breathing. Or lack thereof, actually. Surgery is not an option, already confered with a doc on that.

Well,........crap. I guess that's all I have to say about that. Thanks for the info, everyone.


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## willieiso118

* CPAP the troublesome cure*

     I suspected that i had sleep apnea about 7 or 8 years ago. I was posted in Edmonton at the time. It took two years to get into the U of A sleep lab. Turns out i have it pretty bad my cpap is set at 16/20 (16" of mercury), i was having 21 or so apneas an hour (@ one every 3 minutes). By the time i got into the sleep lab i had degenerated to the point of not being able to make it through a work day, I had to nap at lunchand then again after work! The docs threatened to pull my drivers licence i was so fatigued, but cpap cured that. Kidney and other serious damage can result from the low O2 levels, we have with sleep apnea.
     The cpap therapy and use is a huge learning curve, heated humidifiers to stop nose bleed and irriation etc etc.  This cure is not without its own problems. I eventually had surgry to correct a deviated septum (nose) and later the UPPP throat (air way expanding) surgery.
     The cpap it self is self power adjusting, it can be used on 110 or 220 without any special equipment except the recepical adaptor (no transformers nesc). it can handle aircraft 400 htz (mhtz??) power. The seperate heated humidifier is dumb and req's 110 or you'll fry it (mine anyways). My cpap is self altitude adjusting and is leak tollerant as i am an active sleeper. The cpap has air filter elements on one end and when deployed it is a good idea to do what i did and take a good heft supply of spare bits. I am on my 3rd generation of headset and this one works pretty well. I was in VK in Bosnia on roto 7 (2000/2001) with my cpap and i took it camp to camp with me on second line jobs, i was and still am deployable (within reasonable limits) The cpap was $1500, the humidfier $1000 and i must have gone through $5-600 in parts (including filters) in the last 6 years. (take a set of filters a week for afghanistan)
      When i had my over 40 medical here in Esquimalt my file got flagged, it turns out anybody in the CF with sleep apnea and on cpap therapy is suposed to drop from G2O2 to G3O2. I am a vehicle tech 411 and my file went to Ottawa for review, i was retained with out career implications, however any hopes of remuster were now dashed!
      I am hopeing that after my two surgeries (i am now 5 weeks post opperative on the UPPP) i will have better results when i get my oximitry meter at week ten and try a night or two without cpap. (wish me well)
      As far as your wife goes buddy, don't get a head set that allows the air to blow on her back (your wont be popular), put a towel or something on your headboard for the hose to run on (Shhhhh), and put the cpap under your bed (yes more dust, but happier spouse). Lessons learned hard.....

Cheers

Willie


----------



## Wookilar

Willie,

Thanks for the practicle advice (and the web site) and the good words. I'm in a much better mood now (still bloody tired though  :-\). A G3O2 will work for me. We'll have to wait and see what the doc says.


----------



## CF Doc

Interesting topic!

Just wanted to add my 2 cents with regards to Sleep Apnea in general.

A serious condition.  Not sure about the posting and field worthiness stuff, but I can tell you a few things.

OSA (obstructive sleep apnea) is a non negligible indirect cause of death.  Yep, death.  You don't die from snoring, but you die from the effects of prolonged OSA.  High blood pressure (which leads to heart attacks, strokes, aneurysms, dissecting aortas...) is a very common side effect of sleep apnea.  and let's not forget the numbers of Canadians every year who drive their cars into tractor trailers, ditches and cars with children aboard because of hypersomnolence (too darn tired to stay awake at the wheel).

If treated (CPAP being the best know treatment so far... surgeries are another option, but not the best evidence with regards to cure) you can reduce your risk of developping these life threatening conditions.  The way I see it, even if using the CPAP causes you to be released (and I'm not saying it does necessarily)- at least you'll be alive, which is a heck of a lot better than not (for most people anyway).

Sorry for the reality check... just a different way of looking at the CPAP machine, other than a pain in the ...


----------



## orange.paint

I was thoroughly surprised by this website today.Usually a quick use of the helpful search feature answers your question or guides you to it anyway.
After searching:sleep deprivation,lack of sleep,rules for sleep in field and nothing really answers my question of:

What are the rules for sleep deprivation during TRAINING in Canada?(I.E time up vs time down)

Having said this:

This isn't just some soldier bitching.
Yes I know everyone has a story about how long they stayed awake on RV 33 etc.
And no I'm not trying to sound cocky,I just sometimes come off that way. ;D



I remember a while back hearing for every thirty six hours you are required 4 hours undisturbed sleep here in Canada.While on my mod six we were taught troops could remain functional on 1 hour a day for nine days (58%).I haven't been to my computer at work in quite some time due to course and was wondering if anyone knew for sure out there.

thanks in advance

edit due to spelling


----------



## Armymedic

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> I remember a while back hearing for every thirty six hours you are required 4 hours undisturbed sleep here in Canada.While on my mod six we were taught troops could remain functional on 1 hour a day for nine days (58%).I haven't been to my computer at work in quite some time due to course and was wondering if anyone knew for sure out there.



BS. 1 hr will incapacitate you in about 3 days. You need min of 4 hrs of sleep to maintain 75% effectiveness for up to 5 days. Anything less means that you will become ineffective as a soldier.

Further...Causing you to be sleep deprived is inhibiting your abilities to work to your best capability, and hence putting you and all around you, at risk. It is MHO that leaders should only induce sleep deprivation for a specific training purpose (such as leadership training) and not do it as a rule. In fact, sleep time (no less then 6 hours uniterupted a night) should be enforced for all training not included above, and for all operations. If you want to get your people killed, make them sleep deprived.


----------



## orange.paint

I'm not saying this as a leader,I'm just asking the general question that according to training doctrine during TRAINING what the rules are.I understand fully that it wouldn't happen on OP'S if it didn't have to.

Armymedic,this question is being posed as a question for training in Canada.Not for operations etc.I did 3 days strait a while back with under 3 hours sleep over those 3 days, and was wondering the policy in the CF on courses.We were given 2 hours on the end of the second day,then we all caught catnaps during MLVW drives to objectives when the driver wasn't driving like a idiot.And yes it was a PLQ .It was good though as we found everything absolutely hilarious!Good memories for life!

just wondering if anyone close to the din or anyone who knows could post an answer to:

*HRS SLEEP VS HR WORK ON COURSES IN CANADA*

armymedic:I looked for where I written the 1 hr/9days but couldnt find it.I dont disagree with you at all on it though,it does sound rather (for lack of a better word) "retarded".Ill see if i can find the po/eo number later this week to confirm.But alas I may be wrong.

thanks again in advance.


----------



## Armymedic

Oh sorry, my bad,
I failed to put in that there is no guidelines for training vs sleep for regular tng in the CF. And there should be, as my rant suggests.


----------



## Hoover

Did a 5 day ex with about 4 hours of sleep, went and got pissed at the first chance after end ex drills.


----------



## paracowboy

to the best of my knowledge, there are no Hard and Fast guidelines/rules on Sleep or lack of same, except for the requirement for drivers to get 8 solid prior to driving.

Ask GO!!! how much he and his boys got on the last Ex.


----------



## 1feral1

Recently on ex in southern Victoria, I logged about 9hrs sleep in the first 3 days. This was due to RAEME taskings (fixing LAVS broken in the fd - late nights in the cold), plus mixing that in with CP duties, etc. Mind you there were nights we gonked out for 9hrs straight too.

I've got no complaints, just part of the job.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## orange.paint

Nope for some sick reason I love my job too Wesley!

Armymedic,did you ever see a canforgen maybe on it?I remember somewhere in LFAA hearing about it being standard that you could keep troops awake for 36 hrs then make them forced rest for 4 hours and continue.Maybe its a base order?

Yep I remember 8 hours sleep for drivers on ex in pet myself,think you were with us then armymedic.I also remember it switching to 6 hours for the last few ex's I did in beautiful petawawa.

Maybe its an urban myth....sort of like forced rest in recce patrol orders!

cheers to anyone else who can help us out!


----------



## GO!!!

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Maybe its an urban myth....sort of like forced rest in recce patrol orders!



+1 to that.

I've never read anything to indicate that rest was mandatory before anything but driving.

My experiences support this, as I've done night live fires on four hours of sleep in 48 and nearly everything else infanteers do on even less.

Besides, it would not make a lick of difference even if there was a rule;

Lt.: "Gentleman, orders. C Coy will conduct a full kit, night, double door mass descent on DZ Saville Farm at 0430..."

GO: "Negative sir. This would be in direct violation of CFAO 417.54 subsection 3, 'requirement for rest' you'll just have to wait until after lunch."

Can you see that happening?


----------



## Canadian Sig

CFSCE in Kingston makes you keep a "sleep log" for all your Det members and the rules they use are 4 hours uninteruppted and 2 more hours however you can. Good luck cause it never happens and everyone just lies on the logs anyway.


----------



## Naralis

In CI SQFT, the rule during garrison for training is 6 hours of sleep, minimum.


----------



## Hot Lips

Canadian Sig said:
			
		

> CFSCE in Kingston makes you keep a "sleep log" for all your Det members and the rules they use are 4 hours uninteruppted and 2 more hours however you can. Good luck cause it never happens and *everyone just lies on the logs anyway*.


  I thought lying wasn't on...?  And how can you effect change (not that this is going to happen...I worked nights in Emerg so I somewhat understand) if you misrepresent things?
I am confused...the motto throughout most of these threads is NEVER lie  ???

HL


----------



## paracowboy

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> I am confused...the motto throughout most of these threads is NEVER lie


not everyone follows it. That's why I harp on it *constantly*. Some fucking pussies would rather taste scrotum and go along to get along, then do the right fucking thing, stand up for their troops and make a positive change! 

I've been recognized both positively and negatively for my ever-flapping mouth and unwillingness to see troops get screwed over, if I can make any sort of change. It ain't easy, and it can get you in a whole lot of trouble, but THAT IS YOUR GODDAMN JOB! D9 wishes I could shut up once in a while, but if I did, I wouldn't be the man she fell for (sucker!)


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Part of it is just plain following orders or doing what has to be done.  In the OP Base, I would usually be short the man if I had a 5 man (or 4 man in alot of cases) patrol, letting Jnr go with the 3 man night op (0r 2 man).  Not alot of sleep.  Oh well.  C'est la vie.  When we did have a full ptl, it was like a vacation or something.  sleep?  in the screen?  WOW.

As far as the "orders" go, we were ordered to give the entire course 6 hours sleep a night MINIMUM while on the def. pos in 2001 (QL3 Armd course FTX).  I had never heard of it before, but...the CO said so.  We flipped for it, I lost (3 rings beat 3 chevron's every time).

I know our BTS for Def Ops was (used to be?) 72 hours.  After 3 days of 4 on, 2 off you get alittle thick, cause you never really get the 2 hours.  

CLC in '93, you got as much sleep as you made time for yourself.  2 hours was normal (that was BEFORE the field portion).  

Never seen a CANFORGEN or anything to that affect on the issue though...just specific direction for troops in trng.  I have witnessed the results of their NOT being any direction from the CoC or "school policy" (ARTS in Gagetown) where the troops have been screwed for no good "effective trng" reasons.  Just cause someone could make them stay awake.  Making people stay up IF they could sleep is as stupid as making people sleep in the rain when they have bivy bags in their valise.


----------



## Hot Lips

paracowboy said:
			
		

> not everyone follows it. That's why I harp on it *constantly*. Some fucking pussies would rather taste scrotum and go along to get along, then do the right fucking thing, stand up for their troops and make a positive change!
> 
> I've been recognized both positively and negatively for my ever-flapping mouth and unwillingness to see troops get screwed over, if I can make any sort of change. It ain't easy, and it can get you in a whole lot of trouble, but THAT IS YOUR GODDAMN JOB! D9 wishes I could shut up once in a while, but if I did, I wouldn't be the man she fell for (sucker!)


 See now that's what I like to here...someone with a set of balls not afraid to stand up for what's right...stay handy Paracowboy...I am sure I will need lots of advice as a Jr Officer

HL


----------



## paracowboy

keep in mind that loudmouths like me are NOT necessarily right, all the time. We may not have all the facts. We might just be stupid or cranky that day. You don't have to listen, but it never hurts to hear 'em out.

You will still have your orders, and you will still have to make the call. 
My mission.
My men.
Myself.

Mission first, men always.

Sometimes you have no choice but to put the rod to the troops, in order to carry out the mission successfully. And jerks like me might not realize your aim.


----------



## exsemjingo

Didn't you see that Ren and Stimpy Episode?  It was one of many where they were in Basic Training until Ren finally freaks out.
"No bed...no sleep... no bed... no sleep... WA HA HA!!"

The purpose of training is to simulate combat, and in combat there may well be no reprive of noise and disturbances for 3, 5 days, or maybe ever!

Having worked double shifts overnight to make ends meet, I can tell you that even after 36 hours awake strait, you can still do most anything that you might otherwise be able to do.  You really, really start to focus on the task at hand and completely forget about everything else.  As you loose effectiveness, you also gain efficiency.
But it is really uncomfortable.  Your eyes start to flicker and you get all tingly as you feel your blood sugar change.
Don't worry about it.  They'll push you till you think you'll die, but then you won't.  Just like Ren.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Bottom line is...you get the troops to ground when and if you can.

AND...the troops make sure they do what they can for their Tp Ldr/Tp WO or whoever is "in the breech".  While the troops are doing Harbour Routine and gettin' grits down-range...those folks are busy.  

TEAM

Even the new 2Lt's that were my Troopie, who was on the go lots...got back to the Tp lines...had a fart sack already rolled out for them.  

TEAM.

Even the Ptl Cmdrs/Tp WO/Tp Ldr I worked for that aren't on my Christmas Card list, we still did what we could to get them an extra 15 in the fart sack.  And they did it for us.  

Mud


----------



## aesop081

Well, i dont remember seeing any written rules about sleep / "time up, time down" when i was in the army, but for aicrews, the rules are hard and fast.  We have rules for whats called "crew rest" which is the minimum time i have to be given off between flights and "crew day" which is the most number of hours i can be at work if my day involves flying.


----------



## Standards

Similar to what many others have said, I have not seen any official CF guidelines for sleep during training.

However, a good DND reference is "Fatigue, Sleep Loss and Operational Performance - Operational Effectiveness Guide 98-1".  This guide was produced by two researchers at NDHQ and a copy was provided with a course I took.  If you are interested send me a PM.

D


----------



## Adam

Two years ago I was on a Base defence course, it consited of Army, Air and Navy.  The Troops were formed into sections for the final EX.  My section commander was Navy but some of the others were led by Army types.  
   Our section worked 1 in 2 shifts: 24:00 - 07:00 work, 07:00 - 12:00 sleep, 12:00 - 17:00 work, 17:00 - 24:00 sleep,  The day shift worked the opposite timings.  The schedule worked great we made it through the EX well rested and the timings kept us on track with meals!
   The Sections led by Army types worked 3 hours on 3 hours off, at the end of the Ex they were walking zombies. But now i realize that the Army types believe in walking zombie training.  :boring:
                                                    :boring:   :boring:


----------



## orange.paint

Depends on the work really.

If its non strenious with good weather the navy guy may be right.
However if its hot weather,boring task i.e sitting on sentry or directing traffic shifts must be changed up to prevent sleeping and keeping them sharper.

heres one of the charts pretty neat I thought.

Rules of Thumb __
Mainly Physical work:
3 hours of uninterrupted
sleep per 24 hour period
for up to 9-14 days

Mainly Mental work:
4 hours of uninterrupted
sleep per 24 hour period
for up to 4-6 days


----------



## GO!!!

Adam said:
			
		

> The Sections led by Army types worked 3 hours on 3 hours off, at the end of the Ex they were walking zombies. But now i realize that the Army types believe in walking zombie training.  :boring:
> :boring:   :boring:



It come as a shock to you, being a "medical type" but comfort and rest are not principles of war, nor are they helpful in simulating conditions in which the training you have learned will be used. 

Training in which food, water and rest are at a premium is more accurate in terms of what you will encounter when deployed to our active theatres, and those who have had nothing but "good go" exercises will find themselves sorely tested when they are forced to endure these conditions. 

I find that hard training helps to seperate those who really want to be there from those who simply show up. To better illustrate my point, several of the "medical types" on our last exercise became casualties themselves, requiring "army types" to carry their kit, weapons and eventually assist with their medevac because they had not sufficiently prepared themselves, and succumbed to exhaustion, dehydration or injury (blisters). Notably, none of the "army types" who had participated in plenty of "walking zombie" training had similar problems. Correlation? Who knows?

<puts head down and staggers back to work for more zombie trg>


----------



## orange.paint

I really cannot see how someone becomes a "zombie sleeping 4x 3hr blocks during the day.That's a cakewalk,not a bagdrive.Personally I drive the body harder than that during a normal work night.Its 11:42 I just got back from a run a while back and I haven't slept all day! And I have to wake up in 6 hours.....the horror!

If these guys were actual zombies they were either really weak,or their superiors we not enforcing them getting sleep.After seeing troops so exhausted as you say I'm sure any leader who start telling them not to take a 3 hour smoke break and rack out.


Pity you guys with 80,000 angry Serbs instead of 300 fat Canadians trying to get to work.


----------



## Deck

Just a few tricks I have learned along my way. I am currently on leave from BMQ for the Xmas season. Prior to enrolling and being accepted for a MSEop position I was a long haul owner operator (truck driver 18 wheeler ). Running east to west coast trips frequently. Often days would extend from one into another for a couple weeks on end and almost entirely consisted of random mundane mind numbing tasks. IE, sailing across the Nebraska flats or climbing the mountains of Colorado at 15 mph for hours on end. None the less the need to retain mental functionality is obvious. Coffee for the most part I found to be more of an accelerant  to wake me up instead of actually keeping me from dozing off. I ran on a ration of no more than 3 cups of coffee ever in a day. So for the most part I would have to say the most useful tool you have is mind over matter and natural stimulation. For example I would always keep one of the those thick elastic hair bands on my wrist, start to get a little fuzzy eyed, give your self a quick snap of the elastic on your bare arm or flesh of choice. Always carry one of those cheap grip strengtheners with you. Just a little bit of constant activity can buy your self a few hours. Keep your temperature as cool as you can. Now I am sure not every person will have an environment where the following is practical. Often when I would feel the fog setting in I would try to externalize emotion with the most vocal battle cry I could muster. I am by no means a psychologist but something about forcing your self to get angry and then yelling at the top of your lungs sparks a natural reaction of adrenaline and other fuzzy stuff that can keep you going for a bit. Last but not least is not what you do while your awake but what you do to ensure that every last second counts when you actually do receive that power nap.  Common sense things must become a priority, make sure you have eaten no sooner than 3 or 4 hours prior to shut eye. Make sure you're warm and dry. Make sure your not in the middle of a caffeine or sugar rush. Talk your self into a quick sleep state by using relaxation techniques or self hypnosis. Make stretching a part of your daily routine. Find your self getting bored, spend a 10-20min block of time properly stretching each major muscle group this can add up to an hour of physical activity that your body will actually learn to feel as though it needs to have in order to feel at ease. 

Happy Holidays Folks 2008/09
Sharpe 462 
R0203E


----------



## joonrooj

Any form of hard candy, sucking on it gives you something to do, the sugar doesn't make you crash (well as bad as caffeine), and its good for morale.
And yes, chew is great too, one of the few times I will chew is to stay awake.


----------



## GUNS

Switch a meal break for a catnap. you will be surprised what a 15 min. catnap will do.  :warstory:

 If your eye lids feel heavy, get in a uncomfortable position, if you are in a static location. When you can not endure the uncomfortable position any longer change to a more comfortable one. You get that refreshed feeling every time. :warstory:


----------



## kkwd

Why stand when you can sit?
Why sit when you can lie?
Why lie when you can sleep?
The first is a quote from Winston Churchill, the other 2 are unknown to me.
So take your rest whenever you can and don't waste time doing things that are unnecessary.


----------



## Greymatters

Activity and keeping your face and eyes cool work very well, been doing it for years.

In addition I would suggest that during times when you are enduring lack of sleep, avoid eating any large meals, eat the same amount in small portions over time instead if you can.


----------



## geo

Learnt a long, long time ago that, you grab a few ZZZs each & every possible moment you can get one.

Certainly - when I took my Junior leaders, 6A & 6Bs, all the instructors made a point of pushing us to an extreme - just to see how well we could cope with sleep deprivation & stress.  Those that couldn't just didn't complete the course.

Nowadays, I can drop into "power nap" mode at the slightest provocation - simply amaazes my wife.

Coffee / Cafeine & Tobaco chews.... just be prepared to pay the price for having abused your body


----------



## Rifleman62

From an aide memoire:

*SLEEP DEPRIVATION* Sleep is a physiological need like food and water. No level of leadership, experience, or skill level can overcome sleep loss. You cannot train for fatigue or sleep loss.
*
FATIGUE*

FATIGUE   IS   THE   STATE   OF   FEELING   TIRED/SLEEPY   THAT   RESULTS   FROM PROLONGED  MENTAL/PHYSICAL  WORK,  EXTENDED  PERIODS  OF  ANXIETY,  AND EXPOSURE  TO  HARSH  ENVIRONMENTS  OR  LOSS  OF  SLEEP.  FATIGUE  IMPAIRS ALERTNESS  AND  PERFORMANCE  OFTEN  WITHOUT  A  SOLDIER’S  AWARENESS. IT   PRODUCES   PERFORMANCE   PROBLEMS   SIMILAR   TO   THOSE   CAUSED   BY ALCOHOL. BORING/MONOTONOUS TASKS INCREASE THE FEELING OF FATIGUE.


*SYMPTOMS*
1.    Difficulty  in  attention  and  concentration. Poor, careless   performance, greater tolerance for error. Irritability, decreased motivation and conservation of effort.  Eyes go in and out of focus.
NOTE: Require brief backs when giving fatigued soldiers instructions or orders.


*FIRST AID*
1.    Alternating  soldiers  between  heavy and light  duty  tasks,  including  a  moderate work pace on heavy tasks.
2.    Enforce   a   good   rest   plan.   Provide breaks, naps or time off when task complete.
3.    Adjust the complexity of tasks and make changes   in   assignments   to   prevent boredom.
4.    Provide   high   protein   nutritional   food before/after and/or during task. Consume caffeine drinks

*SLEEP LOSS*

SLEEP-DEPRIVED  SOLDIERS  WILL  DISPLAY  MOST  OF  THE  FATIGUE  SYMPTOMS. SOLDIERS  MAY  TOLERATE  REDUCED  HOURS  OF  SLEEP  OF  4  HOURS  (7  DAYS). LONG TERM OPS (14 DAYS) REQUIRE AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM OF 5 HOURS.
*
SYMPTOMS*
1.    Increased  fatigue,  irritability  and  unreasonableness.  Mental  and  physical  performance deteriorates. Impaired speech and accuracy of skilled tasks. Confusion and   disorientation.   Occasional   visual and sense of touch hallucinations.
NOTE:  Require  brief  backs  when  giving sleep-deprived   soldiers   instructions   or orders.  Provide  information  and  instructions in written form.
*
FIRST AID*
1.    Frequently  alternate  soldiers  on  tasks that  require  a  high  degree  of  vigilance. Postpone  difficult/complex  tasks  during early A.M.
2.    Enforce   a   good   rest   plan,   schedule forced rest (naps).
3.    Allow  soldiers  to  pace  themselves  so they  can  maintain  accuracy  by  slowing speed.  Closely  supervise  and  provide immediate feedback to increase motivation.
4.    Ensure   soldiers   get   the   nutrition   and fluids their bodies require. 

*NAPS*

1.       Naps can sustain performance during continuous work periods and should be encouraged if the situation permits. The best time to nap is before a period of sleep loss to prevent subsequent performance impairment.
2.       Naps should be as long as possible. A single two-hour nap is very beneficial. Short naps of 30 - 45 minutes are better than none.
3.       Timing: 1400 - 1600 or 0300 - 0600 is best. Allow 15 - 20 minutes to become fully alert before starting/resuming task.
4.       Conditions: relatively quiet, cool, dark, comfortable place, if possible. Use ear plugs.
5.       Leaders must ascertain the reasons why soldiers are sleeping during normal duty hours before awaking them. Forced rest (naps) may have been ordered. Awaking the soldier unnecessarily will defeat the purpose of the forced rest and possibly lower morale.
6.       Never Sleep: in running vehicle or tent without a stove watch; close to tracks/roads; in front of/behind/on top of/under a vehicle; outside of designated sleep areas; in a location not known to the leader.

*EFFECTS OF SLEEP LOSS*

Reference: B-GL-332-001/FP-001

(see picture attached)


----------



## R. Jorgensen

I am on a "Special Projects" program along with the Registered Apprenticeship Program (RAP) at my High School and I basically go to school twice a week for 6 hours (two alternating classes - English/Science and Math/Social Studies; Tuesday will be Eng/Sci and Thurs will be Math/SS) and then I work the rest of the week. Well, since I took on a welder-machinist position I've been working some odd hours and had trouble falling asleep and remaining asleep and my supervisor (former MCpl of 12 RBC) recommended a naturally occuring sleep aid: Melatonin.

You can buy bottles of 90 tablets in the vitamin aisle at the local grocery store/drugstore-pharmacy and it says right on the bottle "recommended for shift work". It basically gets you to sleep faster and allows you to remain asleep throughout the duration (I am still able to wake up on time whether it's someone yelling at me before or after my alarm goes off or when the alarm sounds). 

It helps eliminate sleep deprivation by making you sleep, however it doesn't keep you awake.


----------



## geo

In the US of A....

The use of melatonin as a drug can entrain (synchronize) the circadian clock to environmental cycles and can have beneficial effects for treatment of certain forms of insomnia. Its therapeutic potential may be limited by its short biological half-life, poor bioavailability, and the fact that it has numerous non-specific actions.  

In recent studies though, prolonged release melatonin has shown good results in treating insomnia in older adults.

However, here in CANADA...

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010549


> At times of high anxiety, Marie Pember takes a pill to help her get to sleep. A few years ago, it was a pill prescribed by her doctor - an addictive drug that made the 57-year-old sales consultant feel groggy and sluggish in the morning. Pember, who lives in the Vancouver suburb of Delta, stopped using it. She now takes melatonin, a naturally occurring hormone that is also available in pill form. Pember says that melatonin, which is non-addictive, gives her "a great night's sleep" and leaves her feeling "terrific" when she wakes up. But because of a recent federal ban on the substance, Pember, like thousands of other Canadians, is forced to buy her supply in the United States, where melatonin is freely available over the counter in health-food stores and pharmacies. "Everything I've read about melatonin says it is safe, and I think Canadians should have the freedom to choose," Pember insists. "This ban is stupid. All it means is that I drive 20 minutes to buy it across the border in Washington."


----------



## R. Jorgensen

geo said:
			
		

> In the US of A....
> 
> The use of melatonin as a drug can entrain (synchronize) the circadian clock to environmental cycles and can have beneficial effects for treatment of certain forms of insomnia. Its therapeutic potential may be limited by its short biological half-life, poor bioavailability, and the fact that it has numerous non-specific actions.
> 
> In recent studies though, prolonged release melatonin has shown good results in treating insomnia in older adults.
> 
> However, here in CANADA...
> 
> http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010549



I think that information is outdated because I just bought a bottle at Safeway in Cochrane, AB on Saturday. But on the other hand, it is amazing.


----------



## geo

After looking up some more... yep - seems that Melatonin is now available in Canada.  Will have to look up this product for those days when a little bit of help is needed


----------



## ghyslyn

If you can mix the Melatonin with Somatotropin, I don't know of the legality of this I only know it on a biological scale as I've been using this trick for ages by mixing a glass of milk with a banana(mixing somatotropin with melatonin) an hour prior to sleeping, works miracles on periods of my life where I had difficulty falling asleep.


----------



## Greymatters

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> *SYMPTOMS*
> 1.    Difficulty  in  attention  and  concentration. Poor, careless   performance, greater tolerance for error. Irritability, decreased motivation and conservation of effort.  Eyes go in and out of focus.



A good start!

I would add:

1.b. Soldiers may express denial of symptoms.
2.  Effects are magnified by mental states such as loss of willpower, depressed attitudes, or lack of morale/poor espirit de corps.


----------



## geo

WRT melatonin.....

Drink warm Milk - something you probably instinctively knew (without the chemical analysis) :cheers:


----------



## AGuyWithAGun

I find keeping the body/mind moving key during times of sleep dep, especially during those 0100-0400 hrs when the body naturally expects to be racked out. When in a leadership position I found this easy as there is always something to do. However, when rifleman #1 and the task is to staticly watch 10' to 2' I found sunflower seeds always worked for me. Just stick a big wad in one cheek and slowly work on wittling it down.


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## oldpond

I have a problem falling asleep when I drive in the highway.  I find that nibbling on something prevents me from falling asleep.  Jelly beans or sunflower seeds work well.  You can't fall asleep while eating.


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## X-mo-1979

Chew.Or a good yarn with a buddy.


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## HItorMiss

Greatest way I have learned to stay awake is F**k stories from buddies...only crevat is none about the current wife/GF...hard to look at them the same if you know really intimate details of what they do in the bed room. I find guys just getting back from HLTA in Thailand have some great ones LMAO


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## Sonnyjim

I would say not to skip out on a hot coffee with a meal during the day if you get the opportunity, but 100% do not rely on anything caffinated at night to stay awake. It will last no longer than 1 hour. As other people have said, keep moving around, talk to your buddy, and find something to do even if it's a redundant simple thing on the spot.


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## geo

oldpond said:
			
		

> Jelly beans work well.  You can't fall asleep while eating.


Problem with eating it shat... you're eating... jelly beans leads to... jelly belly 
(bin there, done that, got that & had a hell of a time getting rid of same)


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## geo

Heh... problem with "yaking" with your buddy is that, at times you really shouldn't be yaking - you should be paying attention to what is going on throughout your assigned arc of responsibility.... in other words - STFU!  

Might as well have a snooze and leave a sign - "ring bell / shoot gun for service"


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## joonrooj

Forgot to mention one: Adrenaline 

While you are standing there, think of every horror/slasher movie you've ever seen, jump at every noise.
Bonus: if someone really is coming you WILL know
Disadvantages: If someone really is coming you will likely notify them with rapid firing of your weapon, or for the faint hearted, screaming/steadily decreasing in volume sounds of branches and trees being disturbed.


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## Kat Stevens

Sharpen a stick to a point, and tuck it in your gear about an inch from your chin.  If your head bobs, you get a nasty awakening.  Also put a strong elastic on your wrist.  When you start feeling drowsy, snap the inside of the wrist, HARD.


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## HItorMiss

geo said:
			
		

> Heh... problem with "yaking" with your buddy is that, at times you really shouldn't be yaking - you should be paying attention to what is going on throughout your assigned arc of responsibility.... in other words - STFU!
> 
> Might as well have a snooze and leave a sign - "ring bell / shoot gun for service"



There are ways of talking with out having to be loud you know....Sometimes (frequently) you are whispering into eachothers ears...

Which is also in itself kind of disturbing...especialy telling umm racy stories LMAO


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## ballz

Have any of you medical folk had to release members due to sleep disorders?

As a civie in high school I had problems with sleep and went to the doctor twice about it, the first time I think I was only 14. I was actually forced that time by my mom. I went again at around 17 under my own discretion. Not much Nothing was done. 

I learned to "plan around it" for the most part, and I managed to work full-time in the trades 40 hrs a week, and for 8 weeks 60 hrs a week, and I guess due to getting up early and physical exhaustion throughout the day, I could manage to get 4-8 hours a night most nights so it was bareable. Some regularity was there while I was working, days off were another story.

Also during my 15 week BMOQ this summer, it generally wasn't a problem.  Other then the weekends coming and me getting screwed up enough that Sunday night I would only get 2 hours of sleep sometimes. It's weird though as soon as I'm "on my own time" I fall right back into it. After the 5 week indoc period, going to bed at 11pm getting up 5am everyday including weekends, I went to Montreal as soon as we were allowed out, went to bed at a reasonable hour (say 1-2am) and slept until 2pm. As far as I can find out, it's not normal, and that most people would not do this, or even be able to, after getting up 5am every day for 5 weeks.

I'm ROTP. Since I started at Civie U 2 years ago (first semester wasn't subsidized, last 2 and this one have been) with only 15-18 hrs a week in school, things have snowballed downhill. It's been affecting my ability to maintain a life that's "consistent with societal norms." There's just no regularity to it. No patterns. I am often up for 20-30 hours, and then sleep for 12, or maybe only 2, or maybe 16.... and other times I'm up for that time period and can't fall asleep, and the situation I'm in now that really prompted this post:

Sunday I woke up at 4pm. I was up all Sunday night watching football and doing a paper. I laid down to sleep at 6:30am (Monday), didn't fall asleep until about 8am. I had to get up at 10 30 am to attend an important class and finish a paper for 5 30 pm. By the end of my class at 6:45 pm, it was safe to say I was feeling a little sleep drunk. I came home, did some stuff around the house that had to be done, and laid down at 9pm (hoping to wake around 6-8am), only to not be able to sleep. Finally around 10 30 pm I fell asleep, but woke up twice, and finally woke up a 3rd time at 2am, and could not get back to sleep, no way in hell. I felt absolutely 100% awesome. It's now 8 50am, I feel great, ready to finish this day out.

But it's starting to be unbearable and ridiculous. By the time I sleep tonight, hopefully around 10 30pm, I will have had about 6-7 hrs of sleep since Sunday at 4pm when i woke. This is pretty ridiculous. And I have no idea what time I will wake up tomorrow, even if I do get to sleep at 10 30 tonight.

I feel that during my training in the summers I would not be as affected, and that once I finish training and am with the unit working in garrison it would be bareable gain. But I'm very hesitant to go to the doctor for a 3rd time about this, one because I'm worried I'll get turned away again, and two because I'm worried I'll end up getting medically released. Neither one does much good for me.


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## George Wallace

I have known several people in the CF who have had "Sleep Apia".  Whether or not this will be a factor in your Recruiting Medical that may prevent you from joining the CF is a question I can't answer (being Armoured), but hopefully someone with the medical insight can give you some help.  I am sure this is something that will in the end have to be decided by the people reviewing your Recruit Medical.


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## ballz

Thanks George. Sorry for not searching for a Sleep Superthread before posting. Brainfart on my part.

Just to clarify, this is not a recruitment medical issue. I have been enrolled since Sept 08.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

ballz said:
			
		

> Thanks George. Sorry for not searching for a Sleep Superthread before posting. Brainfart on my part.



Not your fault at all,.....I didn't make the "superthread" until your post gave me a topic that I hadn't thought of merging into one neat little package yet.


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## ltmaverick25

ballz said:
			
		

> Have any of you medical folk had to release members due to sleep disorders?
> 
> As a civie in high school I had problems with sleep and went to the doctor twice about it, the first time I think I was only 14. I was actually forced that time by my mom. I went again at around 17 under my own discretion. Not much Nothing was done.
> 
> I learned to "plan around it" for the most part, and I managed to work full-time in the trades 40 hrs a week, and for 8 weeks 60 hrs a week, and I guess due to getting up early and physical exhaustion throughout the day, I could manage to get 4-8 hours a night most nights so it was bareable. Some regularity was there while I was working, days off were another story.
> 
> Also during my 15 week BMOQ this summer, it generally wasn't a problem.  Other then the weekends coming and me getting screwed up enough that Sunday night I would only get 2 hours of sleep sometimes. It's weird though as soon as I'm "on my own time" I fall right back into it. After the 5 week indoc period, going to bed at 11pm getting up 5am everyday including weekends, I went to Montreal as soon as we were allowed out, went to bed at a reasonable hour (say 1-2am) and slept until 2pm. As far as I can find out, it's not normal, and that most people would not do this, or even be able to, after getting up 5am every day for 5 weeks.
> 
> I'm ROTP. Since I started at Civie U 2 years ago (first semester wasn't subsidized, last 2 and this one have been) with only 15-18 hrs a week in school, things have snowballed downhill. It's been affecting my ability to maintain a life that's "consistent with societal norms." There's just no regularity to it. No patterns. I am often up for 20-30 hours, and then sleep for 12, or maybe only 2, or maybe 16.... and other times I'm up for that time period and can't fall asleep, and the situation I'm in now that really prompted this post:
> 
> Sunday I woke up at 4pm. I was up all Sunday night watching football and doing a paper. I laid down to sleep at 6:30am (Monday), didn't fall asleep until about 8am. I had to get up at 10 30 am to attend an important class and finish a paper for 5 30 pm. By the end of my class at 6:45 pm, it was safe to say I was feeling a little sleep drunk. I came home, did some stuff around the house that had to be done, and laid down at 9pm (hoping to wake around 6-8am), only to not be able to sleep. Finally around 10 30 pm I fell asleep, but woke up twice, and finally woke up a 3rd time at 2am, and could not get back to sleep, no way in hell. I felt absolutely 100% awesome. It's now 8 50am, I feel great, ready to finish this day out.
> 
> But it's starting to be unbearable and ridiculous. By the time I sleep tonight, hopefully around 10 30pm, I will have had about 6-7 hrs of sleep since Sunday at 4pm when i woke. This is pretty ridiculous. And I have no idea what time I will wake up tomorrow, even if I do get to sleep at 10 30 tonight.
> 
> I feel that during my training in the summers I would not be as affected, and that once I finish training and am with the unit working in garrison it would be bareable gain. But I'm very hesitant to go to the doctor for a 3rd time about this, one because I'm worried I'll get turned away again, and two because I'm worried I'll end up getting medically released. Neither one does much good for me.



Your sleeping patterns sound very similar to my own.  I was diagnosed with Insomnia back in May, and possibly may have sleap apnea (still being looked into).  They treated me with very mild sleeping pills and for the most part, as long as I am disciplined about taking them at the right time every evening, things have been fine.  I can sleep without them, the problem is, that I just absolutely will not fall asleep at a reasonable hour without them.  Without the sleeping pills I am prone to falling asleep at 8am every day!

I dont know what effect any of this would have on a military career though.  I was still in the reserves when diagnosed with this, therefore everything was done through a civvie doc.  My next medical is not due for another 4 years.


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## X-mo-1979

Yeah ballz your sleep sounds much like my own.I find as soon as I have time off I revert to night time awakeness.I dunno why.
Monday I am always messed up as the mere two days off work mess's my schedule up bad enough I'm usually wide awake at 4 in the morning and up again at 6h00 to head to work.

For me the problem is I require a routine.And getting up at 6h00 without the threat of being charged by the military for AWOL doesnt work for me!

I think I may actually be on a schedule today,wife gone to some cooking club thingy.Had to get up with the kids.

I can also sleep through anything.Rockets landing within 50M didnt even wake me.And those guys are LOUD!


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## mariomike

Now that I am retired, I sleep better than I ever did. 
Problems now are that TV doesn't go off the air at 11PM anymore. They used to ask, "Do you know where your children are?" Then all you got was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSAFLdy2c1A
Also, internet is 24/7. 
Also the streets are busy. Sunday and 24 hour shopping.  They used to roll up the sidewalks at sundown. 
I think am sure we have more noise and light pollution now. Lots more sirens at night too.  That used to be a very big no-no.


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## peterpan

I already looked and couldn't find this topic. Does any one know if  sleep apnea would screw up an air crew medical. getting the proper equiptment would give better sleep and reduce blood pressure, resulting in better preformance. Is there any other air crew who may have it and still fly.


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## ModlrMike

I would be hesitant to recommend an air factor other than 5 for someone with sleep apnea. Sleep apnea comes from a variety of causes, the leading one of which is excess tissue in the posterior pharynx secondary to obesity. Reduction of body weight can frequently "cure" sleep apnea with the concomitant improvement in blood pressure, cardiovascular health, and sleep quality. There is surgery to help reduce the issue in people who have sleep apnea from other causes. The first step is to try and eliminate the cause.

That being said, your flight surgeon is your best resource.


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## peterpan

I know the flight surgeon is  the best to ask...but that is like shooting yourself in the foot. I was just wondering if there were any aircrew who already had it checked and still kept their air factor...but thanks for the response...you seem to more about it then I do..lol


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## Loachman

I know - they're our worst enemies. All that they want to do is ground us or stick their finger up our butts.

But sooner or later, you're going to have to ask one your question.


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## peterpan

Loachman said:
			
		

> I know - they're our worst enemies. All that they want to do is ground us or stick their finger up our butts.
> 
> But sooner or later, you're going to have to ask one your question.


 :rofl:   that is soon true. One guy I work with had trouble going to the bathroom for a spell and when he went to see the doc they wanted to check his heart and give him an ekg ...  and they grounded him?!?!  Needless to say he was p $$*#*....he wont go back any more.  Its like they are out to get us.


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## medicineman

peterpan said:
			
		

> :rofl:   that is soon true. One guy I work with had trouble going to the bathroom for a spell and when he went to see the doc they wanted to check his heart and give him an ekg ...  and they grounded him?!?!  Needless to say he was p $$*#*....he wont go back any more.  Its like they are out to get us.



I'd hazard to guess you're only getting his half (that he chooses to tell you) of the story.  Medical people aren't out to ground you...if you're fit and safe to fly.  People forget that it's not just about you, but everyone else around you as well.  I'll just leave it at that.

MM


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## CombatDoc

peterpan said:
			
		

> I already looked and couldn't find this topic. Does any one know if  sleep apnea would screw up an air crew medical. getting the proper equiptment would give better sleep and reduce blood pressure, resulting in better preformance. Is there any other air crew who may have it and still fly.


Must you ask, when you already know the answer?


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## peterpan

But I dont know .....I have been told  that commercial pilots and such carrying civil passengers are still allowed to fly with ot....but I wasn't sure the military's take on it...was only inquiring to see if anyone else in the aircrew position had it...and I am not saying flight surgeons are bad ppl.....but I know a lot of air crew that feel the same way....just to make things clear I did not write this to bash the med guys 8)    that is all


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## ColdHandsWarmHeart

Hello,

Due to my intolerance of CPAP and mandibular advancement device (mouth piece), I am seeking surgical orthodontic treatment [MMA- maxillomandibular advancement + orthodontics 3 years]  to potentially 'cure' my severe sleep apnea. I have sought guidance from and consulted all specialists (orthodontist, oral surgeon, periodontist, CF dentist) and recently signed on the line to seek funding for the aforementioned from Dental HQ. Any inputs on how often the board gets together to make official decisions during a given fiscal year on similar cases? Also, what are my chances if my AHI factor is 55+, 20 years remaining in contract and unit approval a go?

Thank you


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## OceanBonfire

According to research, at 7+ hours of sleep, a soldier is 98% combat effective.

At 6 hours, that drops to 50%.

At 5 hours, the soldier’s down to 28% combat effectiveness.

4 hours or less, and the soldier is practically a liability at only 15% combat effectiveness.

Before the most recent research, the US Army said that 4 hours of sleep was considered "adequate".









						Pushups, run, plank and...tactical nap? Soldiers need more sleep, Army research says
					

Soldiers need to take "tactical naps."




					www.armytimes.com


----------



## Weinie

OceanBonfire said:


> According to research, at 7+ hours of sleep, a soldier is 98% combat effective.
> 
> At 6 hours, that drops to 50%.
> 
> At 5 hours, the soldier’s down to 28% combat effectiveness.
> 
> 4 hours or less, and the soldier is practically a liability at only 15% combat effectiveness.
> 
> Before the most recent research, the US Army said that 4 hours of sleep was considered "adequate".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pushups, run, plank and...tactical nap? Soldiers need more sleep, Army research says
> 
> 
> Soldiers need to take "tactical naps."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armytimes.com


Having, in my earlier career, gone to work with 0 hours of sleep on “several” occasions, I would beg to differ. I fought, effectively, to stay awake each time.


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## daftandbarmy

"Happiness consists in getting enough sleep. Just that, nothing more. All the wealthy, unhappy people you've ever met take sleeping pills; Mobile Infantrymen don't need them. Give a cap trooper a bunk and time to sack out in it, and he's as happy as a worm in an apple—asleep.” Heinlein





"


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## medicineman

The British Army did a study back in the 80's with BAOR units where they were running them into the ground simulating a rapid Soviet push to see how people reacted with little sleep - some of the leaders were totally done in within 72 hours of no sleep - they had decision paralysis and were  unable to deal with the slightest stresses.  Forced rest of any kind is really important - even 20 minutes of REM can refresh someone's brain enough to function.

I well remember Pennant Week in Cornwallis - we were largely not sleeping for about 2-3 days ahead of the inspection.  Night prior, I and a number of others had just played 3 hours of water polo and came back to clean the Hell out of the place.  That morning, we had PT followed by weapons class until noon - lots of pushups were done due to us falling asleep.  By noon, we were formed up in our hollow square and our Pl WO started to light us up like a Xmas tree about how horribly we'd allegedly done - read off a bunch of names and told them they were getting recoursed to Week 1, told them to fuck off and get their kit and handed us our "pennant" on a broom handle with a piece of hessian as the flag.  I'd say at least 50% of the people were in tears within minutes due to being unable to process/address the abuse being heaped at us.  The folks whose names were read off even started wandering up to get their gear.  That was likely after between 36-48 hours of little or no sleep.  I know I was so wrecked at that point my GAFF was literally ZERO - I was so tired I just went "Well Fuck, this is sucking", I couldn't really do anything else.  

We actually got our pennant...even our MCpl's were starting to wonder such was the performance our WO put on.


----------



## Underway

OceanBonfire said:


> According to research, at 7+ hours of sleep, a soldier is 98% combat effective.
> 
> At 6 hours, that drops to 50%.
> 
> At 5 hours, the soldier’s down to 28% combat effectiveness.
> 
> 4 hours or less, and the soldier is practically a liability at only 15% combat effectiveness.
> 
> Before the most recent research, the US Army said that 4 hours of sleep was considered "adequate".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pushups, run, plank and...tactical nap? Soldiers need more sleep, Army research says
> 
> 
> Soldiers need to take "tactical naps."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.armytimes.com


Enter DRDC's sleep research for the Navy and different watch rotations.  They have a pile of data.

On my OP REASURANCE we went to a modified watch rotation.  Divide the day into 4-hour blocks.  Then assign to each sailor 8 hours for sleep, and then an adjoining 4-hours where they were "available" but not on watch.  Availability meant they could do whatever they liked (sleep more, gym, video games, reading etc...) but had to show up for evolutions (like a RAS).  The Master Sailors were empowered to protect their sailors off time so they were not called in for random evolutions that could be done by the on-watch persons and helped to ensure that the watches were organized with enough people to ensure that routine evolutions didn't need the extra help.  Basically, each sailor had 12 hours "off watch" and 8 hours "on watch" with a 4 hour break in the middle.

There were no routine pipes. No wakey wakey, no hands to supper etc... people knew what time it was and showed up to eat, work, on watch at the proper time because they are adults.  Food was served at the same times but there was a midnight meal laid on of sandwiches/leftovers for overnight watches.  This had an odd side effect of reducing the amount of food eaten on board as people grabbed lighter meals (particularly breakfast).

The dayworkers ran normal working hours but supervisors were empowered to set whatever hours, and staffing they saw fit.  Like professional adults they were. And not surprisingly they set office hours that made sense for the new watch rotation.

For my day I naturally woke up around 730ish, went to the wardroom for ~8, grabbed toast/cereal, and made a tea.  Chilled for 30min, and then went to work.  I worked till about supper, and then went back around 7 and worked some more till about 10.  Except on Thurs which was Movie Night or boardgame night.

Of course, this changed when we were in a higher readiness state, and switching between states provided a challenge but we figured it out.

I've never been so rested and productive at sea in my life, ever.  It took a little getting used to but the focus on sleep, and rest really paid off I think.


----------



## Weinie

medicineman said:


> The British Army did a study back in the 80's with BAOR units where they were running them into the ground simulating a rapid Soviet push to see how people reacted with little sleep - some of the leaders were totally done in within 72 hours of no sleep - they had decision paralysis and were  unable to deal with the slightest stresses.  Forced rest of any kind is really important - even 20 minutes of REM can refresh someone's brain enough to function.
> 
> I well remember Pennant Week in Cornwallis - we were largely not sleeping for about 2-3 days ahead of the inspection.  Night prior, I and a number of others had just played 3 hours of water polo and came back to clean the Hell out of the place.  That morning, we had PT followed by weapons class until noon - lots of pushups were done due to us falling asleep.  By noon, we were formed up in our hollow square and our Pl WO started to light us up like a Xmas tree about how horribly we'd allegedly done - read off a bunch of names and told them they were getting recoursed to Week 1, told them to fuck off and get their kit and handed us our "pennant" on a broom handle with a piece of hessian as the flag.  I'd say at least 50% of the people were in tears within minutes due to being unable to process/address the abuse being heaped at us.  The folks whose names were read off even started wandering up to get their gear.  That was likely after between 36-48 hours of little or no sleep.  I know I was so wrecked at that point my GAFF was literally ZERO - I was so tired I just went "Well Fuck, this is sucking", I couldn't really do anything else.
> 
> We actually got our pennant...even our MCpl's were starting to wonder such was the performance our WO put on.


Yeah, the competition to be the worst(read most fuckin dickheadingest douchebag) WO in Cornwallis was fierce when I also was there. Look back on it now with dismay, but it was the Schtick at the time. Note: At that time, expectations from the CAF about treatment of personnel were “crickets.”


----------



## Blackadder1916

Underway said:


> Enter DRDC's sleep research for the Navy and different watch rotations.  They have a pile of data.





			https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/unc339/p810484_A1b.pdf
		



> Abstract
> 
> The objective of this task was to compare and analyze sleep model results versus field experimental data which were collected on sailors onboard a Royal Canadian Navy vessel in 2017. This study is a continuation of the analysis presented in previous reports [1], [2], and is based on a new set of experimental data that included sailor’s work and rest schedules (from Logs and Actigraphy) on 1-in-3 Watch Schedule. The default and optimized sleep model parameters from Reference [2] were used to predict the sleep schedule and compute the accuracy in the present report. In addition, the sailors’ cognitive performance was also modeled based on the experimental and predicted sleep. The sleep prediction model “Three-Process Model of Alertness” by Akersted’s group [3] was used for the sleep analysis. The Defence R&D Canada (DRDC) Fatigue Model (DFM) [4] was used in the cognitive performance analysis.


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## OldSolduer

Sleep deprivation is a reality on real world ops. That is why on many courses sleep deprivation and the reliance on drills to get the job done is paramount - at least in the infantry. After 48 hours of little or no sleep troops rely on training.


----------

