# arm patch for reservist.



## orange.paint (27 Mar 2006)

I was just thumbing through a magazine and seen a bunch of reservist from Ontario wearing the arm patch with their regiment on it replacing the flag on their shirt.I remember seeing it in Petawawa during Stalwart Guardian a few years back and finding it weird.

What is the real purpose? (yes, I know it displays their regiments) But I have only seen it used with res units.

Is this a LFCA thing?I don't recall seeing it in beautiful sunny Gagetown yet.

What do you all think of the patches? dress regulation etc?

Thought this might provoke some interesting chatter.

cheers


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## the 48th regulator (27 Mar 2006)

You sure it wasn't cadets?

I believe our corps has patch like that that has the regimental falcon.

dileas

dileas


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## GGHG_Cadet (27 Mar 2006)

Yes the 48th cadet corps does have their own patch, as does my cadet corps.


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## orange.paint (27 Mar 2006)

Actually it on the cover of esprit de corp volume 13 issue 2 picture of 33 light infantry battalion on ex stalwart guardian 2004.I have seen other reserve units wearing it since we got the "relish" gear a few years back.

cheers


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Mar 2006)

It's a militia thing, they wear them on summer exercises.  LIB for Light Infantry Battalion, etc.  The different units are colour coded. One of the collectors on my site has one of each, I think.


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## Sh0rtbUs (27 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> It's a militia thing, they wear them on summer exercises.  LIB for Light Infantry Battalion, etc.  The different units are colour coded. One of the collectors on my site has one of each, I think.



They were issued to us on the annual Stalwart Guardians, only to be worn for that week.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2006)

When all the LFCA units come together for Central Area Concentration (CAC), they're lumped together into common arms units, by Brigade. All Inf units in 31 CBG amalgamate to become 31 LIB, all Armoured become 31 ARR (Armoured Recce Regt). While the WR and the QYR were waiting for the Armoured guys to convert, they formed 3 ARR. Same goes for 32 and 33 CBG, with some weird permutations crossing the three. The patches are CAC Unit Identifiers, and worn only for the ex. Most of them follow their Corps colours (red over yellow for Armour). Ex Control have their own, as do the Observer/ Controller group. It's not new for us, we've been doing it for awhile, just not sure how long.


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## the 48th regulator (27 Mar 2006)

see what happens when i am away from the military.....

Any of these patches have a falcon or a 48 on them?

If so let me know, would be interested in getting one...

dileas

tess


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## orange.paint (27 Mar 2006)

cheers recce guy.
sorta like tac signs..only smaller. Gotcha.
anyone gotta scan of these?May be of intrest to people on the site.


Is LFAA using it or LFWA ?

Well I learned something new,time to go sleep it off.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> see what happens when i am away from the military.....
> 
> Any of these patches have a falcon or a 48 on them?
> 
> ...



Sorry Tess, like it says above. No pictures or such, just Corps colours and generic numbering. It's meant to form a new body, much as we would be if the balloon went up.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> cheers recce guy.
> *sorta like tac signs..only smaller*. Gotcha.
> anyone gotta scan of these?May be of intrest to people on the site.
> 
> Well I learned something new,time to go sleep it off.



Exactamundo.


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## the 48th regulator (27 Mar 2006)

so not even a 4 and an 8 any where??

pfft,

gimme the Old maple leaf any day...at leaste it went red and white when you flashed it with the blue filter on an old flashlight..that was cool..


dileas

tess


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## jbeach95 (28 Mar 2006)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> They were issued to us on the annual Stalwart Guardians, only to be worn for that week.



If you could get it to stay on past the first 24 hours. The damn things fell off if they were so much as touched. Especially a problem when removing the tac vest, walking through the bush, etc. Last year, I lost mine on the first day.

They are worn below the Canadian flag, on a piece of velcro that was attached under the flap.
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?FlashEnabled=1&id=691

I believe the 48th Highlanders would have worn "32 LIB".


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## Franko (28 Mar 2006)

But what is the main purpose of a little patch that can be removed at the drop of a hat?

Kinda useless IMO.

As for the umpire staff wearing it....what's wrong with a hunk of white mine tape ala days of old?

Regards


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## Trinity (28 Mar 2006)

Franko said:
			
		

> But what is the main purpose of a little patch that can be removed at the drop of a hat?
> 
> Kinda useless IMO.
> 
> ...



Never did tell the story when myself (cpl at the time) and a reg force RCR member (capt) minetaped
ourselves to get through checkpoints, pretending to be umpire staff.  The worst part is we came upon
a nasty scene between two units where one was ambushed, flipped Iltis and they were literally in
fist fights.  

So.. I kinda like this new tab idea.


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## dredwulf (28 Mar 2006)

Franko said:
			
		

> But what is the main purpose of a little patch that can be removed at the drop of a hat?
> 
> Kinda useless IMO.
> 
> ...



It's meant to be a group cohesion thing.

"You all cease to be individual reserve units from various parts of Ontario, with your own petty rivalries and concerns, and become one strong , Light Infantry Battalion"  etc.

So you see the other guys, you focus on the fact that they have the same arm patch as you, even if the epaulet is different.  Not unlike the red arm patch of the 1st Div during WWII.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

Franko said:
			
		

> But what is the main purpose of a little patch that can be removed at the drop of a hat?
> 
> Kinda useless IMO.
> 
> ...



I gave the purpose in my previous post.

If the Commander LFCA wants me to wear an umpire patch instead of minetape, that's what I wear.

Edit: What dredwolf said.


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## Franko (28 Mar 2006)

ah seen.

Regards


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## Unknown C/S (28 Mar 2006)

I fully understand the cohesion aspect of the patches. It also makes sense to try to sort out "them from us" when you throw a bunch of soldiers together where faces are not recognized.

However..............

During actual Ops all unit identifiers would come off, this seems to be a backward step. (IMO)
I also am a little surprised that the reserve units were happy with this setup. It would immediatly identify them as "reserve soldiers".
In a "one army" concept, and from my experience, this has always tried to be avoided when the militia take to the field. They try to blend in as much as possible.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> During actual Ops all unit identifiers would come off, this seems to be a backward step. (IMO)



That's a given. We already know how to suck eggs. 



			
				Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> I also am a little surprised that the reserve units were happy with this setup. It would immediatly identify them as "reserve soldiers".



When upwards to 4000 of them take over the Mattawa, your point kinda becomes irrelevent. There is very little Reg force on the ground, comparatively. It becomes the Reserve utopian world.   



			
				Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> In a "one army" concept, and from my experience, this has always tried to be avoided when the militia take to the field. They try to blend in as much as possible.



See above.


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## orange.paint (28 Mar 2006)

Cool seems most of the qestions have been answered except for if any other area are using them or is it just directed by LFCA?

anyone got a list avec pics of ALL the badges?This is interesting to me,like a fairy tail when the far distant land of matawa


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> becomes the Reserve utopian world.


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2006)

It is only LFCA that does this.   And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10:

_(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
(2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.
_

Additional accoutrements/ badges / bangles / buttons which are permitted are detailed in CFP 265 (Canadian Forces Dress Instructions).  LFCA's arm patches do not appear therein.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It is only LFCA that does this.   *And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10*:
> 
> _(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
> (2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.
> ...



...or maybe they haven't, and your just not in that all important loop. I'm sure if you put a call into the Area Chief, he'd be more than happy to clarify the Commander's position to you.


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## Sig_Des (28 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> anyone got a list avec pics of ALL the badges?This is interesting to me,like a fairy tail when the far distant land of matawa



I can't remember seeing a list anywhere, but I think I've got 2 of my patches kicking around somewhere.

I have the 3 LBG HQ & Sigs one, and the 3 ARR, as I was attached to them. We had guys in from our Regiment attached to just about every formation. I'll see if I can get some together and get some pics.


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It is only LFCA that does this.   And I suspect LFCA has chosen to forget QR&O 17.10:
> 
> _(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces shall wear with a uniform any visible article that is not authorized as part of an order of dress.
> (2)The Chief of the Defence Staff may authorize specific accessories for optional wear.
> ...



And it was the CDS who made us wear that idiotic Year of the Veteran pin.

The Calgary Highlanders authorized a range of regimental awards that are worn with CFs - but only at regimental functions.  They are not listed in CFP 265, but hey - the Queen said it was ok. http://www.calgaryhighlanders.com/clan.htm


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

Michael,

I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?


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## dapaterson (28 Mar 2006)

[quote author=recceguy]
I'm sure if you put a call into the Area Chief, he'd be more than happy to clarify the Commander's position to you.
[/quote]

The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.


And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  )

As for "The Clan of the Gallant Canadians", HRH may well have authorised the issue of the medal, but there has never been any authority given to wear them with Canadian uniforms.  I understand that the Calgary Highlanders restrict their wearing to regimental functions, but from a narrow perspective, there is no authority to wear such decorations with the uniform, just as there is no authority for Canadians of the first Gulf war to wear medals issued by the government of Kuwait (an issue that was in the press a few weeks ago)


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.
> 
> 
> And Michael:  Yes, the CDS did order a change to dress, as he is permitted to do.  Where's the issue?  (Chain of command and legal orders issue, that is.  I'd rather not touch the aesthetics issue  )
> ...



Exactly my point - units and formations will sometimes issue insignia that is beyond their authority to do so.  But it happens. I see no harm in the practice, but even if I did - it ain't gonna change.

Incidentally, those weirdos that study Uniforms and insignia for "fun" can point to a long history of unauthorized insignia in the Canadian Army, always worn with pride, and quite illegally, from the British-made trades badges of the Second World War which were officially verboten but widely worn, proclaiming to the world that the wearer was a Despatch Rider or some equally exciting thing, back to stuff like Prize Platoon insignia which was authorized by the 3rd Division in the First World War (not sure if there was a larger authority for that one or not, I'd have to reread KHAKI).


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Michael,
> 
> I'm suprised that Mr Milne, who gained the Queen's approval for the awards, is not on the list of recipients. ??? Or did I miss something?



Hitler authorized the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, but only Hermann Goering ever wore one. 

Seriously, good point.  The list is incomplete - I'd be surprised if he didn't get one also.  Thanks for pointing it out, I'll try and find out for sure what his status was.


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## Unknown C/S (28 Mar 2006)

Recceguy

I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?

I was not telling anybody how to "suck eggs" and I have witnessed the Mattawa Plain hordes.

If you agree that afixing a patch to your uniform that will designate the soldier as a "visitor"  to the full time population of the base sits well with the troops that's fine.

Your point may be valid if: None of the soldiers were allowed on the base proper, any and all Reg Force pers were not permitted to take part or enter the exercise area.

My question was how did the troops feel? (Obviously you endorse it)

Secondly, it must have have cost a bit to have patches made up, only to be discarded after the ex? Could money not have been better spent on training (blank rds, gas training, grenade, M72 etc, etc)


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Area Chief is an advisor to the Area Commander - he (or she) cannot assert authority to add items to an order of dress.  And while Area Commanders have positions on many subjects, they also lack the authority to add items to uniforms.



Thanks for the lesson : You missed my point. On of the things the Area Chief is responsible for is dress. If the Commander has changed it, without authority and contrary to the Dress Regs as you imply, I'm sure the Chief had discussions about it. As such he is probably more in the know about this particular case than you are. However, feel free to contact the Commander directly instead and question his motives personaly. Let us know how you make out.



			
				Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> Recceguy
> 
> I am surprised at your response. Did I somehow hit a raw nerve?
> 
> ...


Andy,

You missed my smilies methinks. No offence taken with what you had to say and no frazzled nerves, at least not from this. The patches are held on with velcro, they come off easier than the cam paint and stink, if your one of the lucky ones to make it up top. Most are relegated to the Plains for the duration. Not saying they don't still find a way to get up to Timmies or CANEX. Most I've spoken to, don't seem to mind it. Honestly, I've never heard anyone bitch about it. Maybe the Unit they were delegated to, but not the concept. I'm sure every initiative has it's detractors though. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, simply providing the explanations. I prefer to be a 'grey man' when attending these sort of things.

I don't know what LFCA paid for them, and I'm not sure that cost would have provided much more training aids and value. There's always  somebody from Denison lurking here, maybe they can expand for us.


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?

As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.

If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.


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## orange.paint (28 Mar 2006)

This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of

is this legal qr&o?

what the heck it is?

information, pics ,etc?

man I think I picked a good topic

are you ready?are you ready?lets get it on! (UFC for those hippies who don't watch it)


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> This isn't about being reservist or not it's just questions of
> 
> is this legal qr&o?
> 
> ...



Those have all been answered already, including at least one photo.  Try my forum at http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173/ and ask Bill Alexander if he has photos available of the rest.


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## orange.paint (28 Mar 2006)

cheers.


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## GO!!! (28 Mar 2006)

I like this idea - an identifying brassard for all reservists...

Perhaps red - no, scarlet, yes a scarlet letter - oh, wait a second...


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## turretmonster (28 Mar 2006)

"...scarlet, yes a scarlet letter"

So they can be punished for adultery?

TM


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## Unknown C/S (28 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Some people seem to forget that money is allocated into budgets for specific purposes; is it common to spend ammunition money on badges?  I'm guessing no?
> 
> As a reservist, I'd say why be ashamed of being a reservist? Badges are to identify but also provide a source of espirit de corps.  If given a badge like that, I'd wear it with pride. Shame on me if I didn't.
> 
> If anyone is embarrassed to be a reservist, that's their tough luck.



My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.

(If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

Unknown C/S said:
			
		

> My point was not about being ashamed or embarassed to wear an identifier. The fact that there is already a small amount of animosity between a few reg/res soldiers, the wearing of a patch for a militia exercise might have caused some friction for certain soldiers.
> 
> (If nothing else a patch would have made it harder to sneek into timmies undetected  ;D)



Your last point is apt. 

Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased.


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## Unknown C/S (28 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Your last point is apt.
> 
> Friction between the regulars and the reserves would be the fault of the individuals concerned; I don't think it's a valid reason not to try and foster unit cohesion among disparate elements thrown together by using a known quanitity (ie unit insignia).  For all the dumb ideas the Army has had over history, I don't think this was one of them. But, I'm one of those weirdos who thinks studying uniforms and insignia is "fun" so I am probably biased.



Generally I am against the liberal use of fluff badges & pins, it only seems to drag us (CDN Army) toward an Americanization of our troops.
In this case, a reorg precipitated the need for this. Take the ARR for example, bringing regt's together to work as a single entity (with different cap badges) could cause some problems (SOP's etc) at least the identifying badge is a step in the right direction to bring them closer to "reading off the same page"

As far as friction is concerned, it is generally borne from ignorance from the ocaisional soldier on both sides.


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## Sig_Des (28 Mar 2006)

As one of the soldiers who was wearing flags, I had no problems wearing one. This wasn't to identify us as reservists, it was a unit identifier, and saved us some trouble.

Many were the times when I had my Blue and Grey flash on, and someone would yell "Hey Signaller, get over here" so that I could take a look at their radio.

also, when you had multiple groups from different formations at the showers, and you were waiting for the bus or ML, in the dark, it was nice to know that as long as you were with a bunch of people wearing the same flash as you, you wouldn't be the only one lost.

BTW, a velcro tab won't keep this guy from Tim's ;D


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## Sh0rtbUs (28 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> BTW, a velcro tab won't keep this guy from Tim's ;D



Its velcro for a reason..  ;D


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## Michael Dorosh (28 Mar 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Many were the times when I had my Blue and Grey flash on, and someone would yell "Hey Signaller, get over here" so that I could take a look at their radio.



In other words, it worked.  Camouflage concerns aside, that was the reason "we" started wearing battalion badges in 1916.  Back then a signaller wore a blue and white armlet, for the same reason you just describe.  The more things change...


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## Sig_Des (28 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> In other words, it worked.  Camouflage concerns aside, that was the reason "we" started wearing battalion badges in 1916.  Back then a signaller wore a blue and white armlet, for the same reason you just describe.  The more things change...



Exactly. Mind you, on patrols (Yes, I went out on a couple, Sh0rtbUs, I don't spend ALL my time in the pod), the flashes came off for us, but other then that, I didn't mind having the identifier.


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## jbeach95 (28 Mar 2006)

More pictures:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lfca/ExstalwartGuardian/flash/index.htm
Click on "Cool Pics" (top right).

No camouflage concerns here: while I still had one, it was 31 LIB's black on green (okay, so the green was a bit bright...).
Also, I could just take off the patch and no one would know I'm a reservist (rank slip on says "RCR"). Good for when I was up top. ;D


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## 17thRecceSgt (13 Apr 2006)

Late post on this thread, but I can tell you we don't use these on ARCON (Area Concentration) here in LFAA.  We usually form an ATBG (Area Trng Bde Group) formed with troops from our 2 CBGs.  BUT...I bet if they haven't heard about it..and then they did (the brass down here) they would like the idea.  Inter-unit rivalries here are rampant like every other Area I suspect...I remember the old ARCON smokers...well that's not a topic for here now is it...

But..we can tell each other apart down this way by accents...      Ask someone to talk an' ya can tell what part of the Maritimes they're from right??  (insert Prince County PEI slang here)

Seems to have it's pro's and con's...I like the idea of "easy identification" but not "easy identification as a Reserve"...but that's just me...I am from PEI...my opinion doesn't count 'cause of my grade 6 edu-cation...

 ;D


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