# Honour Fights and Fire Discipline in Iraq and Afghanistan



## Kirkhill (23 Oct 2006)

This thought has been niggling at me for a while.  It was clarified by this comment from a Brit Army officer in Basra:



> Even before (ongoing Operation) Sinbad, there were some encouraging signs. In August, Basra police mobilized to repel an infiltration by 2,000 rural tribesmen whose sheik had ordered them to kill the provincial governor.
> The ensuing clash had a "very Iraqi resolution," said British Army Lt. Col. Simon Winkworth, 41, whose team coordinates police reform efforts. There was a two-hour gunbattle in which thousands of rounds were fired and no one was killed. Having exhausted their ammunition, the tribesmen departed.



http://washingtontimes.com/world/20061022-114249-9502r.htm

One of the enduring impressions of the Iraq war (and for that matter Gaza and Lebanon) is people pointing their AK's skywards and blatting off mags full of rounds in "celebration".   Does the same phenomenon occur in Afghanistan?

Also, this business of rounds down range and no casualties - does anybody know if this is a result of lack of skill or is the entire action a show put on to satisfy honour?  There is a longstanding tradition in tribal warfare of people showing up for fights between villages, making loud noises and threatening gestures then all retiring to the clubhouse for a post-game p**s-up.  In such societies it would be considered very unsporting to actually kill somebody.  That would provoke a blood feud.

It also used to be not uncommon amongst Continental armies to fire off a volley "for the sake of honour" and immediately surrender or retire from the field rather than engage the enemy.

I know that real Afghans and Iraqis, amongst others, are engaging allies with real rounds and causing real casualties.  But is there a possibility that when a new area is entered and a new tribe is engaged that the initial engagement is basically an honour engagement?  If it is, and you return fire effectively then you may be moving a conflict that can be resolved by dialogue into one that requires a blood-feud response.

Comfortably sipping coffee at home.  Not dodging bullets (honour or otherwise).


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## vonGarvin (23 Oct 2006)

Sounds like any episode of the A-Team!


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## 1feral1 (23 Oct 2006)

No OPSEC here.

In the ever present dangerous city of Baghdad, seems everyone has an AK. I have seen countless times, men in civvys, men in bizarre uniforms, men in half civvys half unifroms, all carrying a variety of Kalashniknovs. Rifles folding (under folders sideways folders), fixed butts, and sub-carbines too.

In the IZ, its not un-nerving, but you keep an eye on them. I guess having it slung as opposed to waving it about is the key, although I have seen some rather frantic behaviour on a few occasions. Especially when Saddam's convoy is enroute. Kind of like kicking a red ant hill and watching the mayhem. I've seen this just a few weeks ago. This big black beast, armoured as hell, it resembles an armoured motorhome, called a Rhino. An giant packet of a combo of uparmoured SUVs, HUMVEEs, etc, plus M1 tanks and Bradley AFVs at key locs. Helos etc, Nothing missed. All angles covered.

Meanwhile the IP will fire their wpns to clear traffic jams, etc. Madness! This has happened right beside our convoys before. This was out of the IZ, in the RZ. Some IP dude with a 7.62 x 54mm PKM GPMG blipping off bursts for no real reason. I just shake my head.

Anyone carrying a weapon in the street in the RZ (shy of paramilitaries and other coalition forces) may be in for a bit of trouble, and if there is an RPG invloved, well I won't go there, but we have someting called commonsense, and we would use such I am sure. Its all about their posture and threat, and us being switched on, professional, but reading such body language, even when its a split second decison, its your call, and you live with the results, and we as a professional force must be accountable for our actions.

Legally, every householder in Iraq is entitled to at least one AK for protection, so for weddings and funerals, and various other holidays and special occasions, they fire them into the air, yes live rds, in their neighbourhoods. Its not new, a tradition. The night Saddam was captured, over 50 locals in Baghdad were killed by stray rds, and numerous others injured, and thats just the reported cases.

I wonder what will happen NYE this year? Time will tell I guess. Its totally lawless here, and you have to experience Baghdad to really understand its wierd yet unique ways of life.

There is SAF here all the time, and its easy to distinguish a 'rge prac' from a fire fight, and often there is just a few long bursts and thats it, at any hour of the day.

Strange but true.

Cheers,

Wes


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