# Help Please!



## legal_eagle (6 Jun 2007)

Can you settle a debate on our site please (UK) http://www.arse.co.uk

Is this guy one of yours? And if so, what Regiment is he from and what are the decorations he's wearing?? We think we can make out a QGJM and maybe a QSJM.....?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Cut_away.JPG


----------



## mckee19 (6 Jun 2007)

not 100% sure i couldnt find anything on the site that gave clues, but the stripe on the pants and the red coat kind of make me think he is an RCMP officer


----------



## pbi (6 Jun 2007)

My guess is that he is a Supt in the RCMP. I am suggesting this based on the rank he is wearing on his collar (crown and one pip), and the shoulderboards which closely resemble RCMP Commissioned Officer shoulder boards. I doubt he is Canadian Army (even though we do have some regiments wearing the cavalry stripe and similar messkit jackets), because:

-we don't normally wear our rank on our collars in messkit; and

-Cdn Army messkit normally carries regimental or branch identifying insignia known as "collar dogs", worn where this guy is wearing his rank.

Cheers


----------



## Michael OLeary (6 Jun 2007)

Is he from the Legion of Frontiersmen?

I don't think he's RCMP.

http://www.cpc.gc.ca/pexec/edp_grad_e.htm


----------



## Haggis (6 Jun 2007)

The yellow stripe on the trousers of the "officer" are indicative of the RCMP.  There are more people in the background similarly dressed, although the sergeant appears to have CF Mess Dress rank badges on his jacket.

Hmmmmm.


----------



## pbi (6 Jun 2007)

Mike: you're right on him not being RCMP. Their mess kit is quite different. Here is a picture (circa 1967):http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/canadiancavalry/rcmp1967.htm

Cheers


----------



## pbi (6 Jun 2007)

If you go to this site, there is a photo on the right that shows LoF mess dress: I don't think thte guy in question is LoF either.

http://www.legion-of-frontiersmen.net/

(BTW this seems to be a rather strange organization...)

Cheers


----------



## niner domestic (6 Jun 2007)

That particular uniform is somewhat like the historical dress of 1895: http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/canadiancavalry/rcmp1895.htm


There is a group out of Calgary that work towards preserving the NWMP history...
"K" Troop.  You might want to ask them.  http://members.shaw.ca/ktroop/home.htm


----------



## gaspasser (6 Jun 2007)

Going out on a limb here, what about a Major in the Artillery, possible British from the Pip and the Crown??  I do believe the Artillery wear a yellow stripe on their pants {indicative of cowardice during the Boer (?) War when they ran from their guns before a replenishment from Supply/Transport. That's also the reason why Service Battalions are allowed guns in front of their Headquarters.  Or so I've been told.}


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Jun 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> That particular uniform is somewhat like the historical dress of 1895: http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/canadiancavalry/rcmp1895.htm
> 
> 
> There is a group out of Calgary that work towards preserving the NWMP history...
> "K" Troop.  You might want to ask them.  http://members.shaw.ca/ktroop/home.htm



BYT Driver: he's a LCol - Maj = crown, LCol = crown + pip, Col = crown + 2 X pips, Brig (not BGen) = crown + 3 X pips

A few oddities.

He's pretty clearly cavalry/mounted, but:

1. It's been a very, very long time since officers wore their ranks on their collars.  For as long as I can remember rank badges were worn on the epaulettes/shoulder cords and regimental badges were worn on the collar – *maybe*, sometime between the days when all general staff officers wore gorget patches and the days (starting sometime after WWI) when only colonels and above wore them, general staff officers wore their rank that way;

2. The cuff braid is either very old style or belongs to a general officer;

3. Ditto the decoration on the vest;

4. That *might* be a CD at he end of his rack of medals (my eyes are very good any more) but he _higher_ medals look foreign.

Is he a _reenactor_, I wonder?

All that being said, he looks very vaguely familiar ... Old Sweat: do you recognize him?


----------



## Journeyman (6 Jun 2007)

The two officers in the pic (the 2nd one just off the shoulder of the subject) seem dressed alike, and the four NCMs seem dressed alike  but to different Offr/NCM standards. (ie - NCMs have no shoulder boards, button-down tunic [although you can only see this on the guy playing rock/paper/scissors with himself]). So it does look like an organization with some sort of standard (ie - not Frontiersmen).

The Sgt rank looks like it has a crown rather than a maple leaf (not CF?)

I think I can make out an Order of St John, 125th Anniv, and UNFICYP on the LCol, in addition to the "Jubes" mentioned. (Maybe former CF, or an Honourary??)

On the wall, there are two lances (along with the wide yellow pants stripe, definitely a Cav-type org; Res Armd? Somewhere out west)

Other than that, I've got nothing



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> www. legion-of-frontiersmen*
> (BTW this seems to be a rather strange organization...)*


 Ya think?


----------



## CdnArtyWife (6 Jun 2007)

BYT: Arty do not wear a yellow stripe on their pant it is red. I'm looking at hubby's Mess dress as I type this. Although, I can't speak for what they wore in the past.

The tunic is also all wrong for current Arty Mess dress.

http://photos-768.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v71/64/18/553885294/n553885294_118768_6724.jpg


----------



## gaspasser (6 Jun 2007)

Rebuttal:  Like I said, I was going out on a limb.  I'm not up on British ranks but it did look familiar to me.  The yellow stripe is also indicative of Calvary, which could lead you to thing RCMP.  I was only trying to make an alternative suggestion as to his identity.
Regards, BYTD  


CdnArtyWife:  Obviously from the photo of you and hubby, the guy in the picture is not Artillery.  And, I stand down.

What was the original wikipedia article on that started all this hulbaloo?


----------



## Roy Harding (6 Jun 2007)

pbi said:
			
		

> If you go to this site, there is a photo on the right that shows LoF mess dress: I don't think thte guy in question is LoF either.
> 
> http://www.legion-of-frontiersmen.net/
> 
> ...



_*Rather* strange ..... _, to say the least.


----------



## niner domestic (6 Jun 2007)

The two chaps standing with their back to the cam look like they are wearing the red blazer that the RCMP vets wear in lieu of a mess dress.  Give me a few and I'll drag out my mum's photo albums and see if I can find a pic her division's formal functions.  I remember seeing that kit a few times, just can't remember when and where.

Legal-eagle, the AARSE site seems to be down right now, can you give some background as to why this pic is causing a debate?


----------



## Journeyman (6 Jun 2007)

niner domestic said:
			
		

> Legal-eagle, the AARSE site seems to be down right now, *can you give some background * as to why this pic is causing a debate?


The original source/website of the pic (and properties) may also give some clues, if available.


----------



## CdnArtyWife (6 Jun 2007)

Okay, my turn for a stab in the dark from left field...

Could he be Aussie? The Crown and pip is similar to their LTCOL rank insignia.

Unfortunately I really know nothing outside of the CF combat arms...and even that is limited. Sso I stress it is a stab in the dark...perhaps someone with more knowlege could confirm or deny my uneducated guess. :-\


----------



## Old Sweat (6 Jun 2007)

Edward,

Re your question, he is just vaguely familiar, but we both have seen lots of Mark I senior officers at mess functions. Sometimes we were even sober.

I am not sure he is Canadian, but that is based on the medals as I don't recognize any of the ones to the right of the UNIFCYP gong or the order hanging around his neck. That, of course, could be because of my tired old eyes. I also am not sure about the badge of rank of the NCO in the right rear of the photo.

The mess kit is not fancy enough for the LOF.


----------



## niner domestic (6 Jun 2007)

Here's the rank insignia: http://www.rcmpmuseum.com/museum/Insignia 
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/uniform/badges_insignia_b_e.htm


and a list of their kit replacements...http://members.shaw.ca/rcmpvets.calgary.policy/kit_replacement.htm


----------



## Danjanou (6 Jun 2007)

Ok my eyes aren’t much better than Edwards but I’d say the last medal in the list is not a CD, which would be odd. Anyone who can digitally enhance the picture to make some of the middle ones better? Perhaps his CD is hidden in there?

I also agree that it’s a crown on top of the chevrons not a maple leaf, however that in itself would not discount it being Canadian as I’ve seen crowns used on some forms of Patrols, Number 1’s etc in Reserve Units

He could be an Australian or a New Zealander, or even a South African? Definitely not LOF , not enough medals.


For those eagle eyes here’s links to those countries medals if you want t o try and match them up.

Australian Decorations
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/1975-.htm

New Zealand Decorations
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/new_zealand.htm

South African Decorations
http://www.geocities.com/militaf/mil.htm


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (6 Jun 2007)

This is the ARRSE thread:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=69087/start=0.html

It's cavalry mess kit.  The yellow stripe indicates cavalry.  Light cavalry will wear two narrower stripes. 

In Canada, all Regular Force armoured/cavalry regiments have standard mess kit that looks rather different from this.  Standard armour mess kit has also been adopted by many Reserve units _and_ by RCMP officers.

Ergo, this gentleman isn't Regular Force or RCMP.  He _may_ be from a Reserve unit, as obsolete patterns of mess kit can be found in many regiments.   That would be my guess, although I can't answer for the gongs.

Or, as others have suggested, he may not be Canadian at all.


----------



## niner domestic (6 Jun 2007)

Well, I wrote the the RCMP historical K Troop group and received a reply from John Simpson.  He said the following in 2 emails:

Hi there, yes it is an RCMP  (North West Mounted Police) Mess kit belonging to a surgeon.  He posed for several pictures in several forms of dress.  I'll dig out my file and will send you more information a little later, perhaps tonight.

Thanks


and again at:

I was looking at the one posted with the NWMP site, now I see the one your looking for.

Further to the one you posted in your forum, this one is a historical mess kit that was made by the regimental tailors in at Depot in Regina for the Re-enactment of the March west, based upon mess kits in the RCMP museum and from Dr. James Boulton's book.  I believe they made at least three at the time, including one for the Commissioner, (Murray)  The officers name is Supt. Peter Curley (since retired) and he is attending one of our historical troop's mess dinners.  The fellow's hands emphasising a point in the left of the picture are mine!

Thanks for your inquiry.

John Simpson


I'll let AARSE know of these responses.  I knew I had seen it before.


----------



## CdnArtyWife (6 Jun 2007)

Hoorah! Niner to the rescue!

Cheers,

CAW

edit: spelling (sorry Niner, I don't think you are a Ninny! LOL)


----------



## Michael OLeary (6 Jun 2007)

OK, so what are the medals?  Current entitlements, or also a historic representation?


----------



## niner domestic (6 Jun 2007)

I've asked Mr. Simpson that question, Michael.  I'm assuming they are replicas as the one in book has a similar rack....twigged after he suggested the book to go dig it out from my mom's stuff.  I'll let you know if I receive a reply from him.


----------



## legal_eagle (6 Jun 2007)

Hey there, sorry I didn't get back earlier, I couldnt get onto the ARRSE site either, but I see you have worked it out!...I see also someone posted the correct link, sorry I should have done that earlier..no great debate, just curiousity really (military geeks!!). We knew it wasn't a UK mess dress and when someone suggested it might be Canadian I thought I'd ask on here..Thanks niner and all others who helped to track it down...


----------



## medicineman (6 Jun 2007)

As far as decorations go, I've picked out what's either an Officer or Serving Brother of the Order of St John as well as a 12 year Service Medal of the same, what appears to be UNFICYP, the rest are a unrecognizable, though there is one that might be a provincial order of some sort.  Pic is a bit blurry after all...

MM


----------

