# Hydroxycut/supplements



## orange.paint (1 Nov 2006)

Hey just a question to the rest of you guys reference things like Hydroxycut.I have some stubborn fat that just will not go away with rigorous exercise and diet.I was directed from a few like minded people (read built like bricks***houses) that this stuff really kicks you system into burning off excess fat.

If you have used such products what have been your opinion's and results.Also if you used any other things for a fat burner metabolism booster etc.

I have only been on them for two days and really notice the boost in the gym reference cardio.I won't go into detail (pecker measuring contests) but have nearly doubled my usual time doing the cardio exercises,with a total boost of explosive energy.

any tips/products advice would be appreciated.

(I got to cut 10 lbs before bulking over the winter.And have been plateaued for 4 months now even with changes in routines etc.)


Cheers


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## Quag (1 Nov 2006)

099,

Hydroxycut is a thermogenic supplement.  It contains, EPHEDRINE, caffeine, aspirin, among other ingredients.

How it works, is that the combination of these stimulants raise your metabolism, in turn causing your body temperature to raise (much like having a fever).

Yes, it is highly effective, but not forever.  If you have stubborn fat, it is most likely a genetic problem, and will come back after your cycle of 'Cut.

Lets examine side effects (Hydroxycut with Ephedrine):  
-Insomnia
-High Blood Pressure
-Strokes
-Heart attacks
-Restlessness
-Euphoria (constant "high" (take that as you want it ;D))
-DEATH (not as rare as you might think)
-etc...

Xenadrine is a ephedrine free supplement that will produce the same results, without the extreme side effects.  I'm not condoning its use however.

The question you should ask, is, is it really worth the risk?  The human body is not designed to look like Shwartzeneger and The Rock.  The results you see on these people are from extreme supplementation involving steroids among other supplements.  This robs years of their lives.  If you need a reference I will provide, however you probably already know all this.

In my opinion, live with the fat, everyone has it, and you won't be as cold this winter 

Cheers


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## KevinB (2 Nov 2006)

Hydroxycut etc. no longer has Ephedra in it.


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## SoF (2 Nov 2006)

Quag said:
			
		

> Lets examine side effects (Hydroxycut with Ephedrine):
> -Insomnia
> -High Blood Pressure
> -Strokes
> ...



Hmmm....How about taking the option that DOESN'T give you a heart attack or even worse. No offence to the people on this forum who use hydroxycut but that sh*t is for fat chicks (such as Anna Nicole Smith, who's new body is most definitely not the work of hydroxycut). I'v been there; losing weight takes time.


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

soon as you stop cycling the supplement, your metabolism will go back to the level your genetic heritage has decreed is normal, and the fat tissue you dropped will come back.

It's not an athletic aid, but it does give a mild burst of energy since the metabolism gets a "kick-start". However, long-term, it works against the body in endurance exercise. That's why marathonners don't use it. Just body-builders who only work out for ego. It's about show, not go.

You want to use it, make sure you don't have any sort of heart murmur, or the like. Canadian products don't contain ephedrine.


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## KevinB (2 Nov 2006)

current Hydroxycut contents

I've use it while deployed while doing shift work 
 - I have about 1/3rd of a bottle left


Supplement Size 3 Capsules

Amount per serving        % Daily Value
Calcium 152mg                 15%
Chromium 133mcg            111%
Potasium 225mg                6%

Plus other stuff

Hydroxagen Plus tm 1.71g
 Garcinia cambogia (fruit and rind) extract standardized for Hyrdrocitric acid
 Gymnema sylvestre leaf extract stabdardized for gymeric acid
 Glucomannan
 Alpha lipoic acid
 Willow bark extract (standardized salacin)
 L-carnitite (as tartrate)

Hydroxy Tea tm 393mg
 Green Leaf tea Extract (standardzied for 95% polyphenols (70% catechins, 45% epigallocatechin gallte 90mg EGCG)
 Caffeine
 Guarana extract standardized for 200mg Caffeine


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

yeah, when kids started droppin' dead from over-dosing themselves on it, the companies went to more natural, less effective components. Similar effects, but not as extreme.


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## KevinB (2 Nov 2006)

Yeah I dont think Ephedra has been in this stuff since 1995-6.


I drink enough coffee and my chew is likely way worse than Ephedra was going to be


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## ThatsLife (2 Nov 2006)

Hydroxycut works, I won't say anything against that. My girlfriend gave me a bottle to try out...I wasn't seeing results...but what I realized is...if you eat small amounts, you can burn it off faster. I work construction right now, I usually bring two sandwhiches, a granola bar, a nutrigrain bar and a gatorade...I burn all the calories basically just by working....I'm constantly moving, lifting objects up to 120lbs, and again, constantly moving and keeping a steady go...I've lost 10 pounds in ONE month without even trying. There's no need for any supplements or anything like that...just eat small, if you're starving, drink alot of water...water fills you up and hydrates you without the calories or anything. True story.

So, let's review.

Eat small meals. Example:  a granola bar here, an apple there...don't just go for a bag of chips or a burger or anything like that...that'll screw you over. And if you dont' work a physical job, go to the gym, run atleast 30 minutes then hit up the weights...and don't eat before bed...that's the worst.


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## CDNBlackhawk (2 Nov 2006)

I cant say this enough to everyone who asks me this question, Diet Diet Diet,  I can guaranty your diet is flawed and that your workout routine can probably use some work also. Products like Hydroxycut work, but only if they are aided with a bang on diet and good routine.
Seriously so many people think they have great diet,and they actually only have a mediocre diet.  I know a few sight where you can learn absolutly everything you need to know about diet and training, PM and i'll send them to you, I am in Afghanastan and outside the wire 90% of the time so i may not be able to get back to you right away.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Nov 2006)

This is going to get merged soon  :


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## Quag (2 Nov 2006)

Infidel -  I dont think you truly understand the ramifications of Ephedra, otherwise you would know its way worse than all the coffee and chew you could ingest.

As far as Ephedra legal in Canada, it isn't per se, but go to your local drug store, alot of products still contain it and a lot of hydroxycut knockoffs have synthetic or natural equivalents of it.


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## orange.paint (2 Nov 2006)

*CDN*Blackhawk said:
			
		

> I cant say this enough to everyone who asks me this question, Diet Diet Diet,  I can guaranty your diet is flawed and that your workout routine can probably use some work also. Products like Hydroxycut work, but only if they are aided with a bang on diet and good routine.
> Seriously so many people think they have great diet,and they actually only have a mediocre diet.  I know a few sight where you can learn absolutly everything you need to know about diet and training, PM and i'll send them to you, I am in Afghanastan and outside the wire 90% of the time so i may not be able to get back to you right away.



My diet and training are good,I have lost 70 lbs as to date.(Since last October.)So no I don't think I'll take your guarentee on my diet/training to be flawed. I will however send you a PM for those sites,education is key in everything.Im using the product to see if it will help push me over the plateau to shed the 10-15 pounds of fat,(also I want full abs ;D).I understand no pill works wonders etc,but I'm using it as a training aid and not a crutch.

I can easly keep weight off once I got it gone.I have maintained near a year now without too much thought stress into it.Im hoping after the next 10lbs I can just get back on maintance.

Just wondering what you guys are using,and also for bulking.Im pretty new to supplements.What are you guys using to bulk besides creatine(sp?) (put water on muscles I know). 

cheers 
thanks for the comments thus far.


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## TN2IC (2 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> soon as you stop cycling the supplement, your metabolism will go back to the level your genetic heritage has decreed is normal, and the fat tissue you dropped will come back.
> 
> It's not an athletic aid, but it does give a mild burst of energy since the metabolism gets a "kick-start". However, long-term, it works against the body in endurance exercise. That's why marathonners don't use it. Just body-builders who only work out for ego. It's about show, not go.
> 
> You want to use it, make sure you don't have any sort of heart murmur, or the like. Canadian products don't contain ephedrine.



ParaCowboy is right.. I can voche for what he said there. I was in those shoes once apond a time. I was one for those body builder types until I seen the light.


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## orange.paint (2 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> soon as you stop cycling the supplement, your metabolism will go back to the level your genetic heritage has decreed is normal, and the fat tissue you dropped will come back.
> 
> It's not an athletic aid, but it does give a mild burst of energy since the metabolism gets a "kick-start". However, long-term, it works against the body in endurance exercise. That's why marathonners don't use it. Just body-builders who only work out for ego. It's about show, not go.
> 
> You want to use it, make sure you don't have any sort of heart murmur, or the like. Canadian products don't contain ephedrine.



Yep I understand about the endurance part.However for the next 6 months or so I'm moving away from endurance exercise.(I use to run plus 30km everyday except for fridays.)Good point also on the health advice,I'm good to go but some people may want to look into that.



			
				TN2IC said:
			
		

> ParaCowboy is right.. I can voche for what he said there. I was in those shoes once apond a time. I was one for those body builder types until I seen the light.



Hey D 
you cant just drink the shakes and not work out. ;D Just kidding bud's.
I'll save bandwith and slam ya on messenger later.hehe. ;D


099*


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> Yep I understand about the endurance part.However for the next 6 months or so I'm moving away from endurance exercise.(I use to run plus 30km everyday except for fridays.)


if you're shifting focus from endurance to strength and/or power, then you may very well find 'metabolism boosters' helpful. Just like a cup of coffee 'perks' you up (see what I did there?), so do products like Hydroxycut. It's like kicking your CNS into gear, by popping the clutch.

That being said, I *DON'T* advocate them to anyone, especially anyone under the age of 18. If you insist on using them, I insist you speak with a medical professional first. If you are under 18 and insist on using them, I insist you get someone to kick your ass.

As for weight gaining supplements, dude, the only one I am aware of being truly tested by facilities _not paid by the supplement industry_, and passing, is Creatine Monohydrate. When purchasing products like this, be damn sure you investigate the company producing it. Many of the products on the shelves are not controlled by any Gov't regulatory agency, and will contain anything from human hair (true story) to flour.

I won't go as far as to state the Company involved, to keep Mike out of the courts, but, make sure you do some investigation on your own. Seriously.



_Edited for spelling. Wow. That was more typo than typing. Good Lord, how did any of you read that? - pc_


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## medicineman (2 Nov 2006)

One of the things that's being seen with creatine use is an increase in problems with compartment syndromes because the muscles are getting bigger fast but the compartments they are in aren't (the tissue is rather inelastic).  This can damage nerves and blood vessels and leave really nasty scars as a result of the rather drastic surgery (fasciotomy) that has to be done to relieve it.  Just another one of those things to be aware of (found that out from the sports med doc last week).

Also to reiterate Para - dietary supps are not regulated in Canada.  As such, they don't have to stand up to the kind of testing even over the counter pharmaceuticals have to in order to be sold (or any testing really unless someone decides to sue  :).  American and other foreign and domestic companies know this and are quite happy to provide you with a product that could be cut with flour or icing sugar for all they care, so buyer beware.  There is a pamphlet I believe is available through the PSP Health Promotion guys that DND did on supplements.

MM


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## Quag (2 Nov 2006)

Creatine...oh the magic powder.

David, you're not wrong, but you are missing alot.

A side effect of creatine is the bloating of the muscles with water (the creatine phosphates travel in the water to the muscle).

OK, put your thinking caps on everybody (this hurts my brain to say).

Your body uses energy in the form of ATP.  When you use the energy it gets broken down to ADP (di-phosphate rather than triphosphate).  Creatine phosphate adds that extra phosphate to make ATP again.  (This is an extremely abbreviated summary).

Your muscles will bloat, giving you the feeling of size, however much can be attributed to the water (hence the necessity to drink tons of water while taking creatine).

When you stop you will notice a minor decrease in strength, however nothing too bad.  You will also notice a "size loss" which is attributable to the water retention.  But the muscle mass you gain, will stay with you for the most part, if you keep up your physical routine.

Too lazy and have to go write midterm right now, more to follow.

Cheers


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## The_Falcon (2 Nov 2006)

I used thermo's (ie product similar to hydroxycut) once a few years ago, and just to add cause it hasn't been mentioned, is the dependecy your body attaches to it, because if you don't cycle off properly you WILL feel the effects and they can be very not pleasant especially products containing high levels of stimulants (thermo's).  I am talking, severe migraine headaches, nausea, dehydrations, painful muscle cramps. It was not fun.


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## SoF (2 Nov 2006)

Does anyone even use Creatine anymore??? I thought NO2 is all the hype now.


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

from personal experience, and worth exactly nothing, I found Cell-Tech to really pack on size for me. My strength jumped quite a bit, also.

I have no idea about how 'pure' the product is, nor do I recommend it. I also find that whenever I cycled creatine, I couldn't keep my urine reasonably clear without drinking a ridiculous amount of water.

I gained as much as 10 lbs in a week using it, and would lose anywhere from 3 - 5 lbs, with a slightly larger decrease in strength once I stopped. 

I know some people who stopped using creatine because the extra weight would affect their running abiity, and cause more pain to their joints when running. I, myself, no longer use it as I have to keep my weight fairly low (205 - 215).


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## Quag (2 Nov 2006)

SoF said:
			
		

> Does anyone even use Creatine anymore??? I thought NO2 is all the hype now.



Read up a little more. 

They each do quite different things.  NO2 is all the hype now because of mass media marketing (Xyience, UFC).

Heck, sometimes I wondered if they made a commercial saying it is ALL THE RAGE to jump off a bridge, you'd see people jumping off bridges all the time. :


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## Armymedic (2 Nov 2006)

hype is crap.

With our North American diets, there is no supplement which can not be replaced by real food. Anyone who took creatine, pissed it out if they had a proper diet. If you need protein, eat protein rich food. If you need carbs for energy, eat breads and pasta...

Your not going to get anything out of a supplement bottle you can get from a grocery store.


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> hype is crap.
> 
> With our North American diets, there is no supplement which can not be replaced by real food. Anyone who took creatine, pissed it out if they had a proper diet. If you need protein, eat protein rich food. If you need carbs for energy, eat breads and pasta...
> 
> Your not going to get anything out of a supplement bottle you can get from a grocery store.


that's not striclty true. Numerous double-blind studies, performed by impartial universities over a decade have shown that Creatine does work. Not _quite_ as advertised. But it _does_ add mass and improve strength gains.


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## FredDaHead (2 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> hype is crap.
> 
> With our North American diets, there is no supplement which can not be replaced by real food. Anyone who took creatine, pissed it out if they had a proper diet. If you need protein, eat protein rich food. If you need carbs for energy, eat breads and pasta...
> 
> Your not going to get anything out of a supplement bottle you can get from a grocery store.




Hype IS crap, and so is your opinion.

There is no way to get the right amount of protein with just food, without eating insane amounts of calories along with it. Also, different supplements (carbs and proteins, mostly) are absorbed quicker/slower by the body, enabling people to time their food intake and control their hormones (insulin, particularly) and such. I also don't think it's quite possible to get as much creatine from meat as it is from supplements, unless you eat dozens of pounds of steak a day.

I'm not saying supplements are the only thing out there, but discarding them as "crap" and "useless" is as stupid as swearing by them. They have their use, just like everything else.

I don't need cough syrup and aspirin on a daily basis, does that mean they're useless and we should never buy them and they shouldn't even produce them?


(Ref: paracowboy's most recent post)

Same for a whole lot of supplements, as well. Guess there is some use for them.


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## orange.paint (2 Nov 2006)

Use em as a aid, not a end all be all pill to fix everything.Things don't come easy,but with the right training and diet plan the pill's apparently can help with stubborn weight loss.

Those huge guys in the gym...they didn't eat 14 chickens to get enough protein today,they used supplements.

However you can be in great shape without any supplements and just a good diet,supplements come for the people who want to push to the next extreme in my opinion.


And if your eating a regular north American diet,your far from healthy IMHO. 
Does anyone actually eat following the Canada food guide?If I did with my low BMR I would be 400 lbs!My BMR sits around 1600 a day which is a little slower than the average.

Cheers for the comments troops.


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## FredDaHead (2 Nov 2006)

I don't follow anything the Government (Canadian or otherwise) supplies regarding food, health or exercise.

According to them, I'm obese (now, I have a "couple" pounds to lose, but I'm nowhere NEAR obese), I should eat some weird amounts of different "categories" of food, with no attention to timing or combining, and I should do 20 minutes, 3 times a week to stay "healthy."

I'd rather follow people who actually know what they're talking about; people who have degrees in kinesiology, nutrition, etc.


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## Tow Tripod (2 Nov 2006)

The worst decision I made was taking that shit in Afghanistan.I was either shitting my guts out or worse Iam very confident that it ended up giving me GOUT. GOUT = PAIN. The last two months I limped around with a broken hockey stick when I was trainning the Afghan National Army.The ANA said I looked like MOSES!! Iam a porker and always will be a porker I guess. I wouldn't recommended Hydroxcut to my worst enemy. OK maybe Jack Layton!!!

TOW TRIPOD

WE BREATH FIRE AND DEATH


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

okay, now we're getting into the hype part: Protein powders, and the crap the Bodybuilding magazines pump out about needing more protein *IS* hype. You don't need ridiculously large amounts of protein to gain muscle mass. You get more than enough from a normal, healthy diet. 

The magazines say it because that's how they make money. The bodybuilders say it because the magazines pay them too. You don't see Olympic athletes hawking protein powders, or professional boxers.

I went over this previously, and in my Nutrition thread in the training forum, there's a whole whack o' people with all kinds of degrees and a vested interest in keeping you healthy who say so. Go talk to your Base Nutritionist amongst the PSP staff for a more detailed explanation, and some excellent advice on nutrition as pertaining to physical fitness.


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> I'd rather follow people who actually know what they're talking about; people who have degrees in kinesiology, nutrition, etc.


well, who the flying fuck do you think THESE people are: 





> the Government (Canadian or otherwise) supplies regarding food, health or exercise


'll giev you a hint: They're nutrionists, kinesiologists, sports doctors, and coaches who have been paid by the government to help keep YOU healthy so they can keep the costs of Socialized Medicine down, because this nation of fat weaklings are crippling the meidal system by not following their advice on diet and exercise. :


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## FredDaHead (2 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> well, who the flying frig do you think THESE people are: 'll giev you a hint: They're nutrionists, kinesiologists, sports doctors, and coaches who have been paid by the government to help keep YOU healthy so they can keep the costs of Socialized Medicine down, because this nation of fat weaklings are crippling the meidal system by not following their advice on diet and exercise. :



The "rules" put out by the government are for weak, fat, sedentary people.

I might be fat, but I'm fairly certain I train a hell of a lot more than the guy in his cubicle who takes the elevator to his second-floor workplace and drives his car to go the block to get to the store, yet I'm supposed to eat EXACTLY the same thing he does? Right. I know you know a lot about exercise and nutrition and all that, and most of the advice you give works for "regular" people. Sadly, I don't fit in the mold, and if I follow what the government tells me to do, I get fat, bloated, and weak.

Since I decided to follow what non-government experts are saying, I've been losing pounds like a stripper losing her clothes, and I'm getting fitter and stronger. So, yeah, sure, the government experts sure know what's best for me!


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## orange.paint (2 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> okay, now we're getting into the hype part: Protein powders, and the crap the Bodybuilding magazines pump out about needing more protein *IS* hype. You don't need ridiculously large amounts of protein to gain muscle mass. You get more than enough from a normal, healthy diet.
> 
> The magazines say it because that's how they make money. The bodybuilders say it because the magazines pay them too. You don't see Olympic athletes hawking protein powders, or professional boxers.
> 
> I went over this previously, and in my Nutrition thread in the training forum, there's a whole whack o' people with all kinds of degrees and a vested interest in keeping you healthy who say so. Go talk to your Base Nutritionist amongst the PSP staff for a more detailed explanation, and some excellent advice on nutrition as pertaining to physical fitness.


Agreed,but I am quite new to the buling aspect of fitness.I am looking to but on extra muscle mass but can you really get enough protein from foods without totally overdoing it caloric wise?

Base nutritionist aint a half bad idea either.


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## FredDaHead (2 Nov 2006)

Just a question for you, paracowboy.

How am I supposed to eat properly, even to government guidelines, with the food available in the mess? Half the time the only food available is greasy, even fried, and when there are veggies they're boiled carrots or beans. Not exactly good nutrition. Sure, I can eat salad, but iceberg lettuce with a radish and a few overripe tomatoes don't make a good salad, either.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think there's been a single day that I've been at RMC and have been able to eat only good foods while not starving myself.


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## paracowboy (2 Nov 2006)

099* said:
			
		

> can you really get enough protein from foods without totally overdoing it caloric wise?


yup. I've actually reduced my protein intake (not hard to do, since I've always avoided vegetables for meat my entire life.) and have not only NOT lost strength, but have effortlessly dropped fat tissue. My weight holds at 215, my strength increases, my cardio likewise, my pants waistbands are loose, and my T-shirts are stretching again. But: 





> Base nutritionist aint a half bad idea either.


this id definitely your best bet. Get the advice of a pro. I'm a devoted amateur (more so than ever since the taxi incident) but I'm most certainly NOT a professional. Hey, if the Crown is going to provide the services of an expert free of charge...





			
				Frederik G said:
			
		

> How am I supposed to eat properly, even to government guidelines, with the food available in the mess? Half the time the only food available is greasy, even fried, and when there are veggies they're boiled carrots or beans. Not exactly good nutrition. Sure, I can eat salad, but iceberg lettuce with a radish and a few overripe tomatoes don't make a good salad, either.


no idea. 

I managed to maintain a fairly decent fitness level while deployed in Kabul, being fed on CF food, prepared by CF cooks, to a CF standard for 6 months. In fact, the shape I was in made my wife's jaw drop when I came home for HLTA. But, I guess it can't be done in RMC. You're screwed.


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## KevinB (3 Nov 2006)

Actually we had a nutritionalist come in for our Mountain Man Team.
  
 Your requirements will dictate your nutritional needs.


The only time I would recommend supplements is when you cannot get enough nutrients in their diet via normal means.


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## Armymedic (3 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I managed to maintain a fairly decent fitness level while deployed in Kabul, being fed on CF food, prepared by CF cooks, to a CF standard for 6 months. In fact, the shape I was in made my wife's jaw drop when I came home for HLTA. But, I guess it can't be done in RMC. You're screwed.





			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Your requirements will dictate your nutritional needs.
> The only time I would recommend supplements is when you cannot get enough nutrients in their diet via normal means.



Exactly my point up above...For the fit CF soldier, eating a balanced diet, exercising regularly, no supplements are required. In fact more often then not, they are more harmful then beneficial for the user. More often then not, you are just wasting your money.

If you are not fit...first, change your diet (no more chips, beer and Triple Big Macs) and your increase the intensity of your workouts...supplements alone are NOT going help.


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## TN2IC (3 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Just a question for you, paracowboy.
> 
> How am I supposed to eat properly, even to government guidelines, with the food available in the mess? Half the time the only food available is greasy, even fried, and when there are veggies they're boiled carrots or beans. Not exactly good nutrition. Sure, I can eat salad, but iceberg lettuce with a radish and a few overripe tomatoes don't make a good salad, either.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think there's been a single day that I've been at RMC and have been able to eat only good foods while not starving myself.



Isn't there a few salads you can choose from at the mess? Or what about a sandwich bar? Tuna can be your friend. I haven't been to RMC so I don't know. Beans for breakfast is good too.. just beans and fruit. 

My Two Cents,
Cheers,
TN2IC


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## aesop081 (3 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Just a question for you, paracowboy.
> 
> How am I supposed to eat properly, even to government guidelines, with the food available in the mess? Half the time the only food available is greasy, even fried, and when there are veggies they're boiled carrots or beans. Not exactly good nutrition. Sure, I can eat salad, but iceberg lettuce with a radish and a few overripe tomatoes don't make a good salad, either.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think there's been a single day that I've been at RMC and have been able to eat only good foods while not starving myself.



Fred, i call total BS on your part......

I've been to just about every mess hall in the CF and you can always make a healthier choice without starving.  Heck, if i can manage to eat healthy and lose excess weight living in hotels, depending totaly on restaurants while on per diem and working schedules that would make an combat arms guy's skin crawl......i am quite certain that you can manage it too.  You're just not using you head and using the mess as an excuse.


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## paracowboy (3 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> Exactly my point up above...For the fit CF soldier, eating a balanced diet, exercising regularly, no supplements are required. In fact more often then not, they are more harmful then beneficial for the user. More often then not, you are just wasting your money.
> 
> If you are not fit...first, change your diet (no more chips, beer and Triple Big Macs) and your increase the intensity of your workouts...supplements alone are NOT going help.


ah, now that is closer to the truth, but creatine monohydrate DOES add mass and improve strength when taken, whether you eat well or not. Naturally, eating properly and using creatine will produce far better results than eating McJunk's and swilling back beer (which is a catabolic agent, by the way, kids). 

So, blanket statements condemning ALL supplements outright is unfair to the troopies, and not helpful. Educating them is.

For the Army's view on nutrition, I humbly direct the reader' attention to the thread titled Nutrition for Fitness in this forum, and would STRONGLY suggest that troops take full advantage of PSP's information on nutrition and supplementation, which includes info on creatine.


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## Armymedic (3 Nov 2006)

I still think creatine is a waste of money. There is some science to say I am wrong, but there is more to say that unless you are a high performance endurance athelete, then your body produces enough for your needs, and any additional is eliminated thru your kidneys. 

Hydroxycut, its just bad for you. As are all thermogenic supplements.

But talk to PSP, they are the experts...I am just a medic...

What do I know.  :-\


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## FredDaHead (3 Nov 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Fred, i call total BS on your part......
> 
> I've been to just about every mess hall in the CF and you can always make a healthier choice without starving.  Heck, if i can manage to eat healthy and lose excess weight living in hotels, depending totaly on restaurants while on per diem and working schedules that would make an combat arms guy's skin crawl......i am quite certain that you can manage it too.  You're just not using you head and using the mess as an excuse.



I'm not saying it's always bad, but at least a couple times a week, there's fried trans fat, fat, salty fat, and vegetarian fat. And the sides? Fries and buttered-up carrots.

I try to eat healthy as much as possible--with the occasional bad food; I'm human after all--but sometimes it seems even the seemingly "healthy" choices aren't quite that healthy. Salmon is good, but when it's dripping in sugary sauce... not so much.

Besides, the problem with my diet isn't what I eat in the mess, it's what I eat out of it. It's just not helping that it's sometimes a bit harder to find good foods in the mess other than the salad cart. But hey, I've lost just about 20lbs in, what, 10 weeks? Guess I'm doing something right.


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## paracowboy (3 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> I still think creatine is a waste of money.


I think all supplements are a waste of money, and have said so on several different threads, but it's unfair to just slap out a blanket statement. Especially when there is evidence to the contrary of that opinion. 

Creatine works as advertised. That's irrefutable.

I've stated, often, that it's not necessary but it does work. For a specific purpose. And that it can be counter-productive for other purposes. From my first post on this site I've said that all a person needs to do is eat healthy, run, and do push-ups, sit-ups, and chin-ups. But, creatine WILL add mass and increase strength. 

Don't you think it makes more sense to educate people, than to just make an easily deniable statement thereby casting your other statements in doubt?


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## The_Falcon (4 Nov 2006)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> The worst decision I made was taking that crap in Afghanistan.I was either ******** my guts out or worse Iam very confident that it ended up giving me GOUT. GOUT = PAIN. The last two months I limped around with a broken hockey stick when I was trainning the Afghan National Army.The ANA said I looked like MOSES!! Iam a porker and always will be a porker I guess. I wouldn't recommended Hydroxcut to my worst enemy. OK maybe Jack Layton!!!
> 
> TOW TRIPOD
> 
> WE BREATH FIRE AND DEATH



Thats what happens when you ignore the warning label on the bottle that says store in a COOL dry place.


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## spud (4 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> I'm not saying it's always bad, but at least a couple times a week, there's fried trans fat, fat, salty fat, and vegetarian fat. And the sides? Fries and buttered-up carrots.
> 
> I try to eat healthy as much as possible--with the occasional bad food; I'm human after all--but sometimes it seems even the seemingly "healthy" choices aren't quite that healthy. Salmon is good, but when it's dripping in sugary sauce... not so much.
> 
> Besides, the problem with my diet isn't what I eat in the mess, it's what I eat out of it. It's just not helping that it's sometimes a bit harder to find good foods in the mess other than the salad cart. But hey, I've lost just about 20lbs in, what, 10 weeks? Guess I'm doing something right.



My buddy is a M/CPL cook at your mess, I would be happy to pass on your complaints if you would like to PM me. 

potato


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## paracowboy (4 Nov 2006)

spud said:
			
		

> My buddy is a M/CPL cook at your mess, I would be happy to pass on your complaints if you would like to PM me.


further, there is a complaint/suggestion card in every mess in Canada. Fill one out and put it in the suggestion box.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> But talk to PSP, they are the experts...I am just a medic...
> 
> What do I know.  :-\



Now my friend, don't get one my pet peeves rolling.......this would be the same medical community who just buried their collective heads in the sand and said for years that steroids don't work so all the info that 'gym rats' got was from dubious second hand sources and many screwed themselves doing it. For most body-builders it wasn't until Muscle Media 2000 came out that some 'real' info got in print out to your average joe. [ He has since sold out to the billions of supplement money now though also]


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## orange.paint (5 Nov 2006)

I rarely eat at the mess,but as a marching NCO a while back I did notice that nothing was labeled.I plan on putting in the suggestion later this week at the mess.But I think it would be a good idea to put down things like calories, fat content so people who are less educated on the subject can make better choices.

Just on the hydroxycut topic,I've lost 4 lbs this week. 1 1/2 cardio a night plus push-ups,sit-ups etc.
6 more to go.


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## Klc (5 Nov 2006)

Speaking purely from my experiance working in kitchens, that is a very difficult request.

It's not as simple as adding up the ratio's of different food products, you also need to know how cooking affects the nutritional content. If the food is fried, you would likely need to test each finished product for accurate information.

Plus, it would tie the hands of the cooking staff, as they would have to adhere to very exact proportions of ingredients and cooking techniques.

This is why even large chain resturaunts (Montana's, Kelsey's from my experiance - I have been told it is the same at most table service restaurants) can't give you nutritional content. Too many variables. Fast food is much easier, as portions are usuially pre-determined, and most if not all cooking is automated (Timers, timers, timers...)

That being said, my knowledge of messes is very limited, so this might be workable. But I doubt it. (My knowlege of messes consists of knowing that the food at CFB Winnipeg and Valcartier was very good.)


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## CDNBlackhawk (5 Nov 2006)

Be careful with how much cardio you do, i know you want to loose that fat, but if you start to do to much you will loose muscle, so although you may loose the weight you wont look any different.


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## orange.paint (5 Nov 2006)

Yep I was told if you do too much cardio you have to do more upper body work outs because thats where you lose the muscle.

Cut out coffee too....that aint pretty.


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## TN2IC (5 Nov 2006)

You? No coffee? Dear Lord...


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## paracowboy (5 Nov 2006)

this thread is starting to make me leery with it's focus on that most ridiculous of yardsticks: weight. Weight is immaterial to fitness. I do NOT want to read about daily sitreps on how many pounds someone has shed, or whether one has a six-pack abs, or any other _*vanity-induced crap*_.

If it doesn't pertain to health, or the fitness requirements of the military, it doesn't belong. Let's keep that in mind.

Performance, not appearance.


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## FredDaHead (5 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> this thread is starting to make me leery with it's focus on that most ridiculous of yardsticks: weight. Weight is immaterial to fitness. I do NOT want to read about daily sitreps on how many pounds someone has shed, or whether one has a six-pack abs, or any other _*vanity-induced crap*_.
> 
> If it doesn't pertain to health, or the fitness requirements of the military, it doesn't belong. Let's keep that in mind.
> 
> Performance, not appearance.



Weight is still pretty important. How many fat olympic athletes do you know of? How about fat marathoners? Heck, how many fat paras are there?

My guess is, not a whole lot. So weight is pretty important even if you don't like it.


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## paracowboy (5 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Weight is still pretty important. How many fat olympic athletes do you know of? How about fat marathoners? Heck, how many fat paras are there?
> 
> My guess is, not a whole lot. So weight is pretty important even if you don't like it.


there you go: you say "fat" and then "weight". They are not necessarily related. Which is why the BMI was scrapped a long time ago.

I weigh around 215 - 220. I have a 32 - 34 inch waist. So, I ain't fat, but I weigh quite a bit. *UNRELATED*.


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## FredDaHead (5 Nov 2006)

As a general rule, people who weigh a lot _tend_ to also be fatter than people who weigh less. It's not infallible, but it's a good rule of thumb.


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## paracowboy (5 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> As a general rule, people who weigh a lot _tend_ to also be fatter than people who weigh less. It's not infallible, but it's a good rule of thumb.


but the obsession with _weight_ and _appearance_ as opposed to _health_ and _performance_ is why we have male children killing themselves with the abuse of steroids and thermogenics (he said, attempting to tie this back into the thread), and female children starving themselves to death. _Vanity_ and _insecurity_, which are the antithesis of what a healthy lifestyle is supposed to be about. It's why people throw tens of thousands of dollars away on stupid supplements like protein powder.

Now, let's look at fat and performance. Power-lifters and linebackers carry a significant percentage of bodyfat. But, they can accomplish some amazing feats. I wouldn't want one of those beasts hitting me with a tackle. I wouldn't get up again. But, you can, in many instances, call them "fat". 

Now, lets look at professional body-builders. They sure look good, don't they? But very few of them are healthy. Their guts are cancerous, their hearts are screaming at mach 9, their abdomens are swollen, their kidneys are trying to shut down, they dehydrate themselves to the point where they cramp up, or collapse, or fucking DIE onstage. And they're not really that strong, for the _most_ part, when compared to Olympic athletes like power-lifters and gymnasts.

Now, THAT is why I do not want to see a thread that SHOULD be devoted to health and fitness, get side-tracked with appearance and weight. You following?


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## orange.paint (5 Nov 2006)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> You? No coffee? Dear Lord...


 ;D
I'll be on intervention (A&E) next week.


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## Kat Stevens (5 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Weight is still pretty important. How many fat olympic athletes do you know of? How about fat marathoners? Heck, how many fat paras are there?
> 
> My guess is, not a whole lot. So weight is pretty important even if you don't like it.



Vasili Alexiev, Russian power lifter.


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## The_Falcon (5 Nov 2006)

Or for that matter pretty much every guy in those worlds strongest man competitions.


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Nov 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> As a general rule, people who weigh a lot _tend_ to also be fatter than people who weigh less. It's not infallible, but it's a good rule of thumb.



Perhaps.  However, in terms of volume, lean muscle weighs much more than fat.  Thats why, when people start, say, weight training and doing cardio, they may loose "inches" but not see much weight difference, as the lean muscle they are developing weighs as much, or possibly more, than the fat lost.

Also, in terms of metabolism, lean muscle burns calories.  If you do decent cardio, and keep on lean muscle (and eat, sleep right and stuff like that too), your body will be at its natural best ability to burn the calories you put into it, instead of packing it on as fat.

You ever/heard of a guy named Covert Baily?  He has some interesting books on "fit or fat" type stuff...

Paracowboy mentioned one point I liked.  Once you STOP taking these supp's, your body goes back to its natural state.  Same as steriods.

You are, IMHO, then putting a short term solution on a long term problem...and in a short while, will go back to that cycle and tool to "fix" what you don't like.


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