# Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system



## observor 69 (5 Nov 2019)

Air-traffic control changes in U.S., Europe may force Ottawa to buy new executive jets
CTV National News: The state of Canada's VIP jets

Two of the four planes used for VIP travel will soon face restrictions on where they can fly. Glen McGregor has the exclusive details

OTTAWA -- The federal government could be forced to buy new executive jets to transport the prime minister and other VIPs because of changes to air-traffic control rules in the U.S. and Europe.

Two of the four Challenger jets currently used by the Canadian Forces for executive transport lack the equipment needed to comply with the new ADS-B system, which replaces radar-based air-traffic control with the transmission of GPS-based data.

That will curtail the aircraft's ability to fly in the U.S. and Europe beginning next year.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/air-traffic-control-changes-in-u-s-europe-may-force-ottawa-to-buy-new-executive-jets-1.4668608

Don't know why I find this whole story amusing.


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## Journeyman (5 Nov 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Don't know why I find this whole story amusing.


Then you'll love the follow-on.  op:

Because of the bad optics of the government buying itself a new fleet of VIP aircraft to the detriment of other military procurement debacles, the PMO will announce that ship-building and fighter acquisition programs will be kick-started.... 

However, in order to continue supporting the Liberals, the Green party insists that the warships use environmentally friendly sails for propulsion, and various regional consortiums get protection of their canvas and cable industries as we build squadrons of Sopwith Camels.

         :highjack:


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2019)

This is symptomatic of the Canadian problem that we refuse to treat our head of government as a position worthy of respect.  Official residence drafty, filled with asbestos and mold because we refuse to maintain it properly or replace it?  Check.  Old aircraft that can't legally fly in most airspace within a few months? Check.

But god forbid we invest in modern equipment to support them in their work.  No, don't buy modern aircraft designed and assembled in Canada; no, let's shop craigslist for used instead.


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## observor 69 (5 Nov 2019)

The first thing I thought of was this:

Urgent' renovations needed on 24 Sussex, but Harper won't move out
Stephen Harper is at odds with the Crown corporation that manages the prime minister’s official residence, saying there are no plans to renovate 24 Sussex Drive even as the National Capital Commission asserts anew the need for more than $10-million in repairs deemed “urgent” four years ago.

The commission, which manages the three-storey, 10,850 square-foot, 34-room residence, said this week that “extensive” work is now required on the 143-year-old building — repairs that will “require the occupant to vacate the premises” for more than a year.

Spokesperson Kathryn Keyes could not confirm on Thursday whether the commission has recently been in talks with the prime minister’s staff, but said discussions with his office have been ongoing since 2008, when Mr. Harper first opted not to move out for renovations. Apparently at loggerheads, the prime minister’s office said this week that there are “no renovations planned for the residence.”

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/urgent-renovations-needed-on-24-sussex-but-harper-wont-move-out


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## Blackadder1916 (5 Nov 2019)

Before this devolves into a thread about political considerations concerning "leaders expenses", the first question that popped into my head was "are the Challengers the only military aircraft affected or do all the other fleets have ADS-B".  

Or is the CF moving along at the same snail pace that NAVCAN expects of them?  (from an Aug 2018 study)

http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Study%20Recommendations/Study%20Final%20Report%20-%20ADS-B-EN.pdf


> Issue #11 - Military Exemptions & Security
> 
> Some Department of National Defence (DND) aircraft and some foreign military aircraft will be unable to equip to meet the ADS-B Out mandate and there are concerns that the open broadcast of ADS-B Out data can cause unacceptable operational security risks to DND’s execution of certain missions. NAV CANADA must accommodate these aircraft in their vital and unique operations.
> 
> ...



But then, the Canadian military isn't the only one that won't meet the Jan 2020 deadline to have aircraft compliant for US airspace.  But then, it's not our airspace.

https://www.mro-network.com/avionics-instruments/one-fifth-us-military-aircraft-will-be-ads-b-equipped


> One-Fifth of U.S. Military Aircraft Will be ADS-B Equipped
> 
> Roughly one-fifth of military aircraft operated by the U.S. Defense Department will be equipped for automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast Out by the FAA’s January 2020 compliance date.
> 
> ...


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## Zoomie (8 Nov 2019)

Most legacy fleets are not ADS-B Out equipped.   We will request state aircraft exemptions when/if flying in CONUS and Alaskan airspace.


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## FJAG (8 Nov 2019)

Am I missing something here?

Seems like the ADS-B transponder systems for aircraft are relatively small and inexpensive electronic modules which are being retrofitted into tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of aircraft) under a program that started several years back. 

Are we really saying that we can't upgrade the Challengers with this gear even if they are old 

????


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## dimsum (8 Nov 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Am I missing something here?
> 
> Seems like the ADS-B transponder systems for aircraft are relatively small and inexpensive electronic modules which are being retrofitted into tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands of aircraft) under a program that started several years back.
> 
> ...



Yes.  And the other fleets that don't have them (which I think are most of them).


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## dapaterson (8 Nov 2019)

There are other obsolesence issues with numerous aircraft fleets as well; ADS-B is just the closest issue.  Plus integration costs - believe it or not, VVIP aircraft may have a variety of additional systems installed making integration more challenging and drive up your non-recurring engineering (NRE).

As noted, there are plans to do the integration into other aircraft.  But if you're already planning other life extension projects for those fleets, it may make sense to defer until you've got that fleet into the life extension line.  So, for example, if you're moving a fleet from analog to digital cockpit, do the integration at the same time because then you're only doing the NRE once.

Or, if you've got fleets that you have kept common and not Canadianized the heck out of, do the modernization as part of that larger user community and save the NRE costs.


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## YZT580 (8 Nov 2019)

This is not a surprise issue.  Eurocontrol  was talking about a 2020 implementation date a decade ago and it is not a terribly complicated piece of kit but it does provide a legitimate sounding excuse to upgrade or replace your aircraft which is what is happening in many fleets.  For the US., the problem is one of sheer numbers.  When you multiply by the fleet size you have a huge expense that perhaps might better be mitigated by delegating certain aircraft only to be equipped and relegating the rest to domestic flights where they can write their own rules.  For us, if they weren't planning on replacing the aircraft they should have ordered 3 years ago and got in line


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## Dale Denton (12 Nov 2019)

Who cares if ADS-B isn't that expensive to retrofit, what important is that now the public has the narrative that the plane is too old to be used. Now you have a reason to replace it that the public will empathize with and understand in a 30sec news piece.

Simple solution, just rush the Tanker replacement project and tack on a VIP role, buy 8+ or so and call it a day.


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## Cloud Cover (12 Nov 2019)

What would the options for aircraft and deck configurations be? Leasing or buying the fleet?

Is there a proper military transport role for the Global Express vis a only a VIP shuttle role? 


Possible Boeing Options: 737 800 ERX - Poseidon, Clipper, Business Jet, Cargo, (maybe a Tanker?).


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## dapaterson (12 Nov 2019)

Current a/c are used for VIP / VVIP transport; can be configured for and are sometimes used for medevac; and are used for movement of small groups of personnel where time is of the essence and there may not be regular, reliable commercial options.

My understanding is that with four a/c the squadron is stressed but able to operate.  Remove two from the equation (or reduce the areas where they can operate), on the other hand...


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