# Stupidest policies and rules in the CF



## gate_guard (12 Feb 2004)

Okay, I know we‘ve all been told at one time or another of some lame policy that "came down" that prevented some decent training or just basically violated common sense and practicality. So here‘s your chance to list them.

One of my personal favourites involves a certain stinky someone (Infanteer, you know who) who was jacked up when he tried to lift a metal box of C7 bolts in RQ stores because it weighed more than 35 pounds, and anything over that is a two person lift. Gee, so when do I get issued a sherpa to carry my ruck?


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## Pikache (12 Feb 2004)

Last summer in meaford, sandbags were not allowed to keep the flaps up on top of mods because someone got injured while doing that.


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## Infanteer (12 Feb 2004)

No running in boots


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## Cpl. Williamson (12 Feb 2004)

Except When They tell you too


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## portcullisguy (12 Feb 2004)

RHF... I remember that.  It wasn‘t a problem, we rigged up some bungee cord in my mod tent to do the trick.  I don‘t see how a sandbag falling from the mod tent corner could injure someone who wasn‘t goofing around or not paying basic attention to their own personal safety, but ...

I like how they tell you to apply sunscreen and wear a hat when out in the sun all day.  But on grad day, they didn‘t give us time or direction to apply any sunscreen, and the "hat" we wore was the beret, which isn‘t too effective at keeping the sun off your turnip.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Feb 2004)

The order to wear helmets when in any military vehicle in the training area at Wainwright, even the crew cabs.


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## Korus (13 Feb 2004)

> the "hat" we wore was the beret, which isn‘t too effective at keeping the sun off your turnip.


This summer, I went gungho and got my hair cut high and tight, exposing the pasty white scalp that had before then been covered in hair. Now the thing is, I don‘t burn that easily, but I do tan VERY easily. 

By the time september rolled around, and I transitioned back into Class A, and started up uni again, I had a VERY prominent berret tan around my forehead, and the left side of my head, with a distinct curve on the right side of my head. My hair was still short, but I‘d gone back to a taper. Everyone kept on staring at my berret tan, and there was really no sexy way to explain it to the ladies..


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## slans (13 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Korus:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Got me one of those Helmet Tans this Summer from the straps.... sexy!


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Feb 2004)

I always loved the box which the military watches came in, marked â Å“Radioactiveâ ? â Å“Do not wear except when in useâ ?


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## Jungle (13 Feb 2004)

On the ranges: no smoking within 50ft of the ammo point. But put all that ammo in your webbing/ vest, including grenades, M-72s etc... and the boys can light up without danger !!!


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## bubba (13 Feb 2004)

if i was still in i would like to knock out the GUY,who was responsible for removing the beer from the feild canteen.....hows a grunt to release a little tension in the politcaly correct army these days,while in the feild????that was a lame policy......


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Feb 2004)

what! no beer in the field mess?


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## dbrock (14 Feb 2004)

How about the famous,

If you get a sunburn, It is considered a self inflicted wound.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Feb 2004)

I can see we‘ve migrated from dumb policies to petty whining.  No beer?  How tragic; get over it.  Last time I checked, it was an alcoholic beverage.

And sunburns are indeed preventible ailments.  

What next; permitting venereal disease because the boys "gotta ease some tensions"?


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## dbrock (14 Feb 2004)

Sounds good to me.


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## Slim (14 Feb 2004)

No one can move a tank or other armoured vehicle by themselves...Unless they‘re a maintainer!

There should be a range (like "Poorman‘s Range" in Fort Knox, Kentucky), where they could fire live ammo over the heads of training soldiers. That type of training is invaluable!

Not being able to get rid of overweight soldiers because of "BMI"!


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by cdnsignaller:
> [qb] Sounds good to me.      [/qb]


Remind me not to use the same bathroom stall as you.    :dontpanic:


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## dwild40 (14 Feb 2004)

This stuff is amazing.  I don‘t ever recall any orders like those from on high in our day.  Especially not being able to get rid of overweight soldiers.  BMI? ( Body Mass Index???)


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## Michael Dorosh (14 Feb 2004)

BMI was a way of measuring body mass, yes, but it also indicated that excessively muscular men were "overweight" - which technically they may have been, but not in an undesirous way.


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

Wearing a helmet inside a tank or Coyote. If the bloody thing rolls, a helmet won‘t help. If you get hit by an incoming round...   

Sexual harassment....when the policy first came out in 91...."you will not look at a female for more than 6 seconds...anything more will be construde as leering and is punishable ..."

Time out cards...candidates on their basic are allowed(as far as I know) to flash a pink card so they can have a moment to themselves if they become frustrated. 

Gee...hate to see ‘em in a fire fight   

Regards


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## Jungle (14 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb]
> Time out cards...candidates on their basic are allowed(as far as I know) to flash a pink card so they can have a moment to themselves if they become frustrated.
> Regards [/qb]


That‘s just an urban legend... such cards never existed. If basic trainees get frustrated, they either suck-it-up or they are dealt with.


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

Really?

Heard it from an instructor in St Jean who just got posted from there back to the school.

Guess he‘s full of poo.

Regards


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## Art Johnson (14 Feb 2004)

Just received this item in the KVA Newsletter this morning and thought it quite appropos of the subject matter here.

Now & Then Comparison  

 Hey!  Guys  . . Isn't this the truth. .   

 A recount of The olden Golden days since many of us were old enough to Serve. . 


1950 - NCO‘S had a typewriter on their desks for doing daily reports. 

2000 - Everyone has an Internet access computer, and they wonder why no work is getting done. 



1950 - If you got drunk off duty, your buddies would take you back to the 

barracks to sleep it off. 

2000 - If you get drunk, they slap you in rehab and ruin your career. 



1950 - You were taught to aim at your enemy and shoot him. 

2000 - You spray 500 bullets into the brush, don‘t hit anything, and retreat 

because you‘re out of ammo. 



1950 - Officers were professional soldiers first and they commanded respect. 

2000 - Officers are politicians first and beg you not to be given them a hard times 



1950- They collected enemy intelligence and analysed it. 

2000 - They collect your pee and analyse it. 



1950- If you didn‘t act right, the Staff Sergeant put you in the brig until 

you straightened up. 

2000 - If you don‘t act right, they start a paper trail that follows you forever. 



1950 - Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own. 

2000 - Medals are awarded to people who work at headquarters. 



1950 - You slept in barracks like a soldier. 

2000 - You sleep in a dormitory like a college kid. 



1950 - You ate in a mess hall, which was free, and you could have all the 

food you wanted. ( A  jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread)

2000 - You eat in a dining facility, every slice of bread or patty of butter 

costs, and you‘d better not take too much. 



 1950 - If you wanted beer and conversation you went to the Officer‘s, NCO or OR's

Mess .( It may have been snobbish but it worked.)

2000 - Enlisted clubs for all ranks. The beer will cost you $2.75, 

membership is forced, ( hasn't changed in 50 years) and someone is watching how much you drink. (never happened in our time, we were encouraged to drink)



 1950 - Mouth off to a sergeant and you got pounded. (I know all about this, that is why I worked real hard at becoming a Sergeant)

2000 - Do it now and get handed a "time-out" card. 



 19450 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people. 

*(Maybe -- time heals all myths, but I don't think so) We had leaders.

2000 - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt. 



1950 - Wars were planned and run by generals with lots of important 

victories. *(Again, maybe) 

2000 Politicians with lots of equivocating who think wars are conflicts plan wars   



Time changes nothing



1950 - All you could think about was getting out and becoming a civilian. 

2000 - All you can think about is getting out and becoming a civilian.



Now that is progress Isn't it?


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## combat_medic (14 Feb 2004)

OK, now let‘s put things into perspective;

1950 - If a troop gets out of line, he can be beaten within an inch of his life with a drill cane and no one would bat an eyelash.
2000 - If a troop gets out of line, he will be instructed on the proper way to behave, and punished appropriately.

1950 - Discrimination, harassmement and assault based on race, gender and sexual orientation was not only commonplace, but encouraged.
2000 - People are given equal chances to prove themselves capable of doing the job.

1950 - PTSD, CSS and "shell shock" were considered weakness and cowardice, went decades untreated, and was often the case of extreme violence, domestic abuse or suicide.
2000 - Soldiers are able to seek counselling for these problems and get the treatment they deserve.

Agreed, certain standards have gone lax, but let‘s not think TOO fondly on the "good ole days". A lot of things have improved, in my opinion.


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

We have a tendancy to remember the good times and not the bad....

Combat Medic...thanks for keeping it in perspective.   

Regards


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## Art Johnson (14 Feb 2004)

Combat Medic, I really think you don‘t know what you are talking about no NCO in the Canadian Army would be allowed to use a cane in such a manner as you describe he wouldn‘t have to he could cut you down with a few choice verbal remarks. I will grant you that No. 1 Field Punnishment was still given. I was in Pett when a Gunner died from it. I believe that was the last time No 1 Field Punnishment was awarded.
Discrimination, harassment etc was encouraged? Oh! by who? Did it happen yes, a friend of mine who was Jewish was harassed by a guy who out weighed him by about 50 lbs Goldy beat the **** of the big guy and they became best buddies ever after. Another Jewish friend of mine took a different route he just marched into the C.O.s office and complained about his platoon commander and the C.O. straightened that out in short order.
Gender harassment was often practiced on the straight guys by those you seem to think were being harassed. As for PTSD etc you have a stronger case there and I don‘t have enough room to go through it all but I‘ll give you one instance where the patient was escorted off the hill by two of his buddies to see the shrink. The patient came back one of the escorts didn‘t he was kept by the doctor and invalided out to a hospital as an S case. If you read some of the casualty reports from the 2nd War you will see that 20 percent of the battle casualties were refered for behaviour in battle problems.
Believe me no one involved in battle wants or needs an unstable person along side them and they don‘t have the time to harass them as you seem to think.


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Art Johnson:
> [qb] Combat Medic, I really think you don‘t know what you are talking about no NCO in the Canadian Army would be allowed to use a cane in such a manner as you describe he wouldn‘t have to he could cut you down with a few choice verbal remarks.......
> Believe me no one involved in battle wants or needs an unstable person along side them and they don‘t have the time to harass them as you seem to think. [/qb]


I think I have a few choice words here:

No one needs someone who spouts off OPSEC things either....

‘Nuff said   :rage:  

Regards


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## combat_medic (14 Feb 2004)

1. I know people used to get beaten with drill canes. My grandfather was in the CF in the 50s (from about 1939-1970) and has told me of at least 5 seperate occasions when he witnessed it happening, or had it happen to him.

2. Discrimination has often been encouraged as a means of drumming out soldiers who did not have the right gender, skin colour, ethnic backgroud and so on. It may have not been official policy, but it was still in common practice.

3. As for "battle fatigue", it was typically only treated by those who showed obvious symptoms in the heat of battle. Soldiers who froze solid, refused to obey, cried helpless in their trenches were carried off the line, but what about all the other vets? Those who stayed and did their duty were no less susceptible, and they typically never got any treatment. Everyone can get CSS or PTSD, and it is certainly no indication of a weakness of character or instability. To say otherwise shows a complete ignorance about the condition.

4. You must be an anglo saxon white male between the age of 18-50 if you think that harassment and discrimination don‘t take place, or that no one has the time for it. It happens all the time, and if you‘ve never seen or heard of it, then you obviously aren‘t paying attention and have certainly never been the victim of it. Don‘t be dismissive; it happens everywhere, in and out of the CF.


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

Good point Combat Medic.

Regards


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## Gunner (14 Feb 2004)

Combat Medic, well stated comments.  I was going to respond to Art Johnson last night but was called away to do a couple of things.  

To compare the army of yesterday and the army of today is like comparing apples and oranges.  There are similarities but for the most part they are different.

Society has changed since the 50s, 60s and even the 70s.  It is only logical that the army has changed with.  

I remember the old days when officers would draft correspondence and hand it to a clerk or a typing pool to place in a proper format and type it out.  It would come back for signature/changes and then it would be sent out.  The advent of computers and internet has drastically reduced the time required to "make things happen".  The passage and management of information is conducted at a rate that was not conceivable 15 years ago.  

As far as   





> 1950 - Officers were professional soldiers first and they commanded respect.


I wish it was so black and white.  Many of our officers were incompetent during WW2 due to our lack of military preparedness prior to WWII.  Most made do as best they could with the knowledge they learned the hard way (soldiers dieing).

Fast forward a few years and I certainly recall some very good officers that I looked up to when I joined the military in the 80s...unfortunately there were also alot of the "hangers on" that spent most of their time in the mess telling each other how important they were.  From my perspective there is alot less (officers, WOs and Sr NCOs) of that now becuase was are so much smaller.  If you don‘t pull your weight it is noticed alot more and there is less places to post someone too if no one wants him.


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## hoganshero (14 Feb 2004)

off topic but pertinenent none-the-less
this link is regarding US recruits being given stress cards. Appears this rumor (which I too have heard) is universal amongst armies.

 http://snopes.com/military/stress.htm


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## Art Johnson (15 Feb 2004)

"4. You must be an anglo saxon white male between the age of 18-50 if you think that harassment and discrimination don‘t take place, or that no one has the time for it. It happens all the time, and if you‘ve never seen or heard of it, then you obviously aren‘t paying attention and have certainly never been the victim of it. Don‘t be dismissive; it happens everywhere, in and out of the CF."

Combat Medic, I am white, Anglo Saxon and well past 50 believe me. I didn‘t say that harassment and discrimination didn‘t take place in fact I mentioned a couple of examples and certainly know of more BUT they were not officially encouraged as you seem to indicate. We had two brothers one was a good soldier the other was not, they were both black, I‘m sure that the one who wasn‘t a good soldier was refered to by some people with an ethnic slur. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that some people were refered to as "
Limey *******s" or "Frogs" or "Pepsis".
It is not that long ago that a Gay Naval Officer was doing a strip dance in a Gay night Club on a regular basis and the powers that be thought nothing of it but a young Infantry Officer at Pett was forced to quit his job as a Pizza delivery man because it was considered unbecoming conduct for an officer.
I said before that this is a long subject to discuss on a board but if I may, at the beginning of the 2nd WW a catagory system was in place for enlistment purposes ie Catagory A,B,C,D,F. This was found not to be satisfactory and a waste of manpower so the PULEMS system was instituted and men who could not hack the rigours of battle were reasigned to tasks more suited to their demeanor and those that were not suitable were retuned home for treatment. Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto and Westminster Hospital in London Ontario were two hospitals that I know of that provided extensive care for soldiers that had suffered from "Shell Shock", for lack of a better word at the moment. I remember a chap named Smitty from the RCR who‘s face was all burned up from phosphourus in Italy, he lived and worked in Sunnybrook for 10 years or so while they reconstructed his face, nobody thought of him as a coward, unfortunately he commited suicide, but it wasn‘t from lack of care and understanding by the hospital staff.
While I was in Japan a chap blew the top of his head off because his wife sent him a "Dear John". The Red Cross pulled out all the stops to get him home but all their efforts were for naught, nobody thought he was a coward.
I spent 18 months in Military hospitals when I returned home after being wounded and have nothing but praise for the hospital staffs and the care the government provided the Veterans at that time.
One final note I really find your father‘s story about being beaten hard to swallow, maybe you could tell us the unit he was with.


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## Franko (15 Feb 2004)

I‘m trying to get some perspective here. Art... you say that you‘re well over 50 and a WW2 vet who just got back from Afganistan with the troops?
In Japan? Huh? You‘re also a Korean War vet?

Mind explaining how that could be? Just a wee bit currious thats all....not trying to be a jerk. I hold vets in* VERY* high regard seeing how I‘m a Legion memeber...

Regards


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## Michael Dorosh (15 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] I‘m trying to get some perspective here. Art... you say that you‘re well over 50 and a WW2 vet who just got back from Afganistan with the troops?
> In Japan? Huh? You‘re also a Korean War vet?
> 
> ...


If you look into Melady‘s history of the Korean War, you will see Art‘s name there.  He served in the 48th Highlanders in the late 1940s, after WW II, then in two different battalions of the RCR in Korea.

There are photos of him and an interview at my website at    http://www.canadiansoldiers.com    - look PERSONALITIES for these.

Direct link is here:

  http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/johnson.htm  

A look at the KVA website will also find you some articles by Art; he has long been associated also with the WW II history of the 48th as a curator of the regimental museum with close contacts with WW II vets.


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## Franko (15 Feb 2004)

Michael Dorosh...thank you for clearing up my questions so quickly.

Art... My appologies    

So you‘re a re-enactor ‘eh? Always wanted to get into that stuff but don‘t know of any units that do armour around our area (Pet). One of these days when I go out west for an FTX I‘ll have to stop in and see what exactly you do.  

Regards


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2004)

All I can add is that I think there are as many misconceptions about the "old army" as there is about the "new army".


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## miranda (15 Feb 2004)

BMI mania.... a list of soldiers who were not permitted to wear CF sweaters(too embarassing for the CO). BFT you must finish with all you started with, water included. BTW been reading this stuff for a week or two and for the record Franko missed his calling .. should be entertaining the Tps as opposed to leading(just kidding).


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## btk_joker (16 Feb 2004)

As much as I love whatching people start arguing like this...maybe we could go back to the original subject which so far sounds pretty good; "Stupidest Policiest and Rules in the CF."

J. Lightfoot


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## Franko (16 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by Hulk:
> [qb] ...maybe we could go back to the original subject which so far sounds pretty good; "Stupidest Policiest and Rules in the CF."
> [/qb]


Strange..I thought it was "Stupidest policies and rules in the CF"   

Regards


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by rcdoffspring:
> [qb]  BTW been reading this stuff for a week or two and for the record Franko missed his calling .. should be entertaining the Tps as opposed to leading(just kidding). [/qb]


Who said he was leading?   

GW


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## Franko (17 Feb 2004)

Last time checked my Ops WO, SSM, AND RSM did   

Regards


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## combat_medic (17 Feb 2004)

The incidents that I remeber off the top of my head where a troop was beaten; one occured in Calgary in the 50s, or maybe early 60s at the military prison. One of the troops backtalked one of the Staff Sergeants, and got beaten across the head with a drill cane so hard that it cracked his skull and he ended up in the hospital for several months.

Another involved a troop who was caught stealing (wainwright?). His coursemates, at the instruction of their staff broke his hand for the infraction.

In both cases, I don‘t recall there being any consequences for the offenders. In any case, I‘m not trying to get into a debate about the "old days" vs today, I‘m just trying to add a little perspective. Perhaps back in the old days that we tend to venerate so highly were just as flawed, but in different ways. Society changes, and so must we.


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## Infanteer (17 Feb 2004)

> Another involved a troop who was caught stealing (wainwright?). His coursemates, at the instruction of their staff broke his hand for the infraction.


Whats wrong with that?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Feb 2004)

I second that Infanteer.  CHEERS


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## Yllw_Ninja (17 Feb 2004)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb] The incidents that I remeber off the top of my head where a troop was beaten; one occured in Calgary in the 50s, or maybe early 60s at the military prison. One of the troops backtalked one of the Staff Sergeants, and got beaten across the head with a drill cane so hard that it cracked his skull and he ended up in the hospital for several months.
> 
> Another involved a troop who was caught stealing (wainwright?). His coursemates, at the instruction of their staff broke his hand for the infraction.
> [/qb]


-Two easy ways of avoiding both of those is....don‘t backtalk your superiors and dont steal from your fellow soldiers...or anyone for that matter...if you don‘t have the common decency(sp?) to go out and buy it yourself you don‘t deserve to have it at all...actually that guy had it easy i guess in India if you steal a loaf of bread you get your arm chopped off at the elbow


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Feb 2004)

Well, there is no excuse for violence in either case, but one does have a bit of sympathy for the staff sergeant in the first example, and the theft victims in the second.  I think we‘ve all seen soldiers who just "didn‘t get it" when it came to sass.  I‘m not recommending a fractured skull - I think if an NCO has to resort to hitting, he‘s not capable of doing his job effectively and has to resort to brutality.  

But I would suggest that these stories stand out as exceptions to the rule; even in the dark old days of the 1940s, beating a subordinate was not encouraged or, I would suggest, even condoned as a matter of policy.  I think Art and others "who were there" would likely agree.

Combat_Medic, are you changing your story from "a severe beating" to a single blow in anger across the head?  One is as bad as the other, but what you describe here seems more easily...understandable(?)....than the inferences you would have had us draw on page 1.


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## combat_medic (17 Feb 2004)

Michael: I would consider a basal skull fracture to constitute a "severe beating". The troop nearly lost his life and ended up hospitalized for months. I don‘t know if it was a single blow or multiple blows, but in any case, he was still nearly beaten to death.

Also, there were no punishments for the people who were responsible for the assaults. I would consider the inaction in response to those incidents to be condoning the behaviour. If there was no reprimand or charges, then the authorities stated very clearly that what happened wasn‘t wrong, or even discouraged. Perhaps these are exceptions, and I can‘t say either way because I haven‘t been in long enough to draw a comparison, but standing from the outside looking in, it seems like these incidents show a casual disregard at best for physical violence as punishment, and at worst an unofficial support.

I agree that there are often troops who just don‘t understand, but I still don‘t consider that grounds for nearly killing them.

Again, I wasn‘t there and didn‘t see these events happen. They are second hand and 40 years old, but they ARE examples of NCOs using beatings as a disciplinary tool, in which their actions were either conveniently ignored or condoned.


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