# Browning 9mm



## Linc (15 Aug 2002)

Its my understanding that this is still the current ‘standard issue‘ sidearm in the CF, although Im aware that SF and Naval Boarding parties use the Sig 9mm.  Any input as to how these pistols compare with eachother (reliability, stopping pwr,etc) and with the Baretta 9mm, now US standard issue or the older Colt 1911 .45?


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## Troopasaurus (16 Aug 2002)

ok the GP-35 or FN high power is canadas sidearm for the military however JTF-2 and the bording parties as you said use the sig sauer 9mm this is manly for saftey reasons they are both excellent weapons as for  the US they use the 92f beretta it has 2 rounds more to a clip than the pistols mentioned above but is know to have a defective slide and some of them break off the gun when firing not nice the most notable story of this is a navy seal when the slide came clear off and hit him in the face but the police and all other countries report no such problems so maybe its just someone not likeing american military personell      hope that helps

  :cam:


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## portcullisguy (17 Aug 2002)

My god Aurora, ever use punctuation?  That was a tough read!

Anyway, my two cents on the whole issue sidearm deal... I personally would prefer a simple, reliable firearm in a calibre that has stopping power and reliability.

A Glock or H&K .45ACP, full sized handgun, makes an appropriate choice for military use, and the same platform can be used for SF and boarding parties, requiring no new gunsmithing training, etc.

Of course, there are problems with my suggestion:  The guns are way too expensive.  .45ACP isn‘t the NATO standard.  The guns would be too large for most women and anyone else with small hands.  I have big hands, and my H&K USP40 is nearly too big ... I use my index finger for the magazine release on the right side, instead of the thumb for the left side mag release, because my thumb doesn‘t reach it as easily on the left.


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## Harry (18 Aug 2002)

Well, just my two cents worth.  The Brownings we have, err, I used to carry.  Were originally manufactured by Inglis, of sewing machine fame.

I will always reflect fondly of my Hi-Power packing days.  But in all reality, I have graduated so to speak and can not believe the military hasn‘t done away with it.  The Sig, nice platform, I was one of the first guys to train others on it and to be blunt, never liked it.  Give me a Glock anyday for CQB.

I understand that there are morons in the military who are still against a round in the spout for the Sig‘s et al.

Good to know the dinosaur troopers still exist.  Don‘t really care to debate the intricacies of the weapons, because at the end of the day, the intent has always been to replace the Browning with the Sig.  Like any other train in CF motion, debate is futile, you will be assimilated.

Have a nice week end all.

UBIQUE   :blotto:


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## Linc (19 Aug 2002)

Sure but would a Glock hold up in field conditions like Afghanistan or elsewhere with the dust, mud and general abuse of life in the trenches?  They strike me as being somewhat delicate in that respect.


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## portcullisguy (19 Aug 2002)

Ok, I have fired Glocks, and no since I don‘t own one, I can‘t comment on it‘s ability to take abuse.

From everything I‘ve read, it is a simple tool, easy to use, clean, and maintain, has a good size capacity, and is quite durable.

If I ever did own one, of course, I wouldn‘t be burying it in sand or whatever to test it.  However, I‘ve heard from people who have played with them that it DOES fire under water, it will put up with relentless abuse, etc.  It has loose tolerances, however, and is not a match target weapon.  I wouldn‘t recommend it for IPSC, then, but clearly this kind of accuracy isn‘t needed in a military sidearm.

No, I am not a Glock saleman.    

Personally, I‘d pick the H&K USP40, like the one I own, or the USSOCOM cousin.  However, at the end of the day, when you really need a sidearm, you are in the **** anyway, and I am sure you just want one that works.


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## Harry (19 Aug 2002)

I have carried the Glock-19 in conditions similar to Afganistan and it saw varied levels of dirt contamination, adverse weather.  Applied direct abuse (banging around in armoured vehicles and my favourite-helicopters avoiding little puffs of trailing smoke).

The Glock is a safe, solid weapon.  I heard all kinds of horror stories about slide probs, sights detaching, the list is about two pages long.  None,of these happened.

We had some folks with some S&W‘s .40‘s there who had assorted probs associated with weather, dirt and ammo shortages.  If anyone wants to by me a couple of beers, I can tell the story of the pocket Makarovs.

We also carried some high end H&K products and I had tried to convince the powers that be to let us trial some H&K hand guns, no luck.

Should I find myself in some little dirt hole again, my request will be for a Glock19 or 23.  Most likely a 19 for ease of cross use ammo.

  :mg:


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## Linc (20 Aug 2002)

Thanx for all the input.

So this sort of goes back to my original question: what is wrong with the current Browning model other than the fact that it‘s ‘old‘?


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## Harry (20 Aug 2002)

It is just that. In it‘s day it was one of the kings of the 9mm world.

Today for CQB and other high end operations it lacks the functionality required for quick shot placement.

It is a single action safety, not the best weapon in the world to carry a round in the spout.  To awkward to release the safety etc, faster to rack a round.

The OPP Tactics and Rescue teams had some Brownings that had been heavily modified and rebuilt in the late ‘80‘s early 90‘s in order to accomadate a first round out of the spout.  But at the end of the day they would have saved a lot of time and money to buy off the shelf.

Today we have a number of very good double action safety systems out there.  Rack a round, and apply safety, voila, good to go.  Then there is my fav, the Glock, for those who have truly used it, you can understand. 

It comes down to the safety system.  The Browning is a good solid shooter, just lacks in modern day features.  Like comparing an original Porche 911 to a 2002 model, similar but so different under the hood and in the cabin.


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## Coniar (21 Aug 2002)

The sig is used by the USSS isnt it? I thought it was know for its smaller size and accuracy, mabey Im thinking of a different pistol...

Coniar


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## portcullisguy (21 Aug 2002)

Linc, I believe one of the draw backs of the Browning, besides its aged functionality and single-action, is that it is right-handed only, if I recall.  It would require an after market armourer to convert to left hand.  It has many moving parts, and this can mean more things to break & replace, although I understand the Browning is actually quite reliable.

The Glock, like so many modern pistols, is ambidexterous, in addition to all its other benefits mentioned earlier.


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## Harry (21 Aug 2002)

Portcullisguy, thanks for the boot in the backside.

Duh, I am left handed, how quickly we forget.  Nothing burned my backside more than having a dino on the range make me do IA‘s and Safeties right handed and switch to left to shoot my trusty sewing machine gun.

I had many an RSO chastise me shooting lefty on the long guns, but seeing as how I was a solid shot, I was left alone.  In 85, 86 and 87, I was on the Bge small arms team, but never went national or higher because of the lefty BS.  The same for Biathlon, as a cadet and later in my early career, I was a top shot, but the lefty politics played through.  

It took me a long time to get the point across about learning to do everything properly with my left in the event I ever found myself at a gun fight audition.  When I got to the elevated position of RSO, I put in a memo with supporting documents, etc supporting it.  

I guess the copy of the police report regarding an Ontario Constable found dead got the point across.  He was found with a single gunshot to the head.  He had spent casings in his hand and pocket.  It was ascertained that he been taught from day one Shooting 101 to pick up brass after each drum was expended from his six shooter, reload and carry on.  Never got to the reload portion it seemed.

It was believed that under extreme stress during an armed confrontation, he reacted in the manner he was trained.  Hence I got the point across WRT changing hands on the range etc, especially when I used a Lefty Low ride holster.

UBIQUE   :sniper:


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## BillP (22 Aug 2002)

The SIG is an excellent replacement for the Browning High Power. The HP is an excellent design, yet it‘s just an old design, that is more than surpassed by the Sig line. Many SF units,Gov‘t agencies worldwide trust the Sig, moreso than any other current pistol(except for the Glock, which seems to have cornered the Police market!) But compared to the Browning, the SIG is  superior in terms of its S/A-D/A operation, well placed controls,internal safety mechanism, and ease in being used by left handed shooters. I have owned a Browning High Power, Glock(M22), and now currently own a SIG226(9mm). Over the Browning, the Sig is extremely reliable out of the box; comes with better sights, internal safety mech.,smoother single/double action trigger, and the decocker mech. that allows you to drop the hammer safely, prior to holstering the pistol. The Browning is a very good gun, but as already stated in previous posts it‘s dated, the current issue pistols are old, have been re-tooled many times, and the functionality isn‘t as user friendly as the SIG, or even the Glock for that matter! The Navy boarding teams are using, I believe, the SIG225(9mm. single stack) JTF(SIG226, plus whatever else they want!) 
 It will be sad to see the Browning go, it has served Canada very well for decades, but it‘s age, and current advances has put it in a disadvantage to other pistols.


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## portcullisguy (22 Aug 2002)

(OT...)  BillP, are you sure you weren‘t talking about our PM when you said, it‘s "aged" and "time to go"... lol


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## BillP (22 Aug 2002)

Portcullisguy,
 Not really, I have much higher regard for the Browning HP 9mm, than for the PM. At least when the HP is finally retired, it will be known for decades of loyal service to the CF, the PM‘s retirement will be known for anything but that!
LOL


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## Coniar (24 Aug 2002)

so are there any other resonable options besides the sig to replace the browning??? I I dont know sidearms to well so Im curious
And its nice to see someone from eastern Canada poke fun at the PM   

Coniar


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## Harry (24 Aug 2002)

A nowhere topic, but for what it‘s worth.  The Glock 19 is probably the best bang for the buck and field reliability.

Get used to the Sig though.  :mg:


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## mfeamer (24 Aug 2002)

My two cents on the topic is that the SIG is probably the best choice. It is already in the system, and is a good, reliable weapon in all conditions. I carry a P229 in .40 S&W every day, in all kinds of weather. In seven years, it has never malfunctioned despite only being thoroughly cleaned about three times a year. My version is a DAO (double action only) no external safeties to worry about, no decocking levers - always one up the spout ready to go at a moment‘s notice.  :cam:


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## armd_recce (5 Oct 2002)

Had an Int Sgt who is also big time into small arms pass me some interesting info this summer. There‘s a study underway to replace the Hi Power, and they are looking at 4 options; keep it as is, replace with a PDW (like the FN P90, HK PDW), replace with a 5.56mm weapon (perhaps like a C8 or even shorter) or replace with another pistol. 
He printed it off a DIN site, sorry it was months ago and I probably couldn‘t find it again. You know how the DIN is, I think it was buried waaaaay back in a hidden link from the CDS biography page that isn‘t listed anywhere else =)
I do recall it was an entity *like* DCIEM doing the trial, but not DCIEM itself, if that jogs anyone‘s memory. 
And agreed Matt, Sig is an excellent pistol IMHO. I have a P220 in .45, and it is a model of simplicity and reliability. 4 main parts and less than 10 sec to field strip. I‘d prefer the P220/226 with the decock lever and the option of SA.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Oct 2002)

I wouldn‘t mind seeing the C7 replaced with C8s.

Is the glock 19 the version of the glock that has a larger magazine and is semi- and fully automatic?
(like the baretta 93f)


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## armd_recce (5 Oct 2002)

Yes, my heretical opinion is that we‘d do well with a flat top C8 with an Aimpoint Comp ML2 or compact ACOG to replace the C7 outright. Would still be effective out to 300m and weigh about 7.5lbs loaded. Maybe even split the difference and go with a 16" bbl...profiled for the M203 of course.
The Glock 19 is the compact version of the Glock 17. The select fire model is the Glock 18. Nifty noisemaker, but not really useful IMHO.


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## vember0 (5 Oct 2002)

i have no milatary experience but i do know my pistols,browing highpower an the sig are both nice, but i like the sig better,for diffrent reasons, as far as 9mm caliber goes, its easy to control and accurate, but if i had t resort to a pistol for self protection id like a higher caliber for more stoping power and something relieable like a 45 sig or even a desert eagle, the reason i leave glocks out, i dont like the way they feel or point, just a personal thing i guess, alltho the ones iv shot seem to be unjamable with any ammo but non jacketed ,i find lead bullets get chewed up onhe loading ramp once in awhile


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## Jarnhamar (6 Oct 2002)

Having a beefed up C8 would probably be a big no no however. "It looks too agressive".
One can still dream though.

I think i would prefer a pistol with more hitting power then a 9mm due to all the body armor which is readily available.


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## armd_recce (6 Oct 2002)

That‘s why god invented head shots. 
Body armour is classified by NIJ threat levels, eg level II and III A will defeat 9mm/.44 mag class. Probably the most common levels, and comparable to the newer issue armour. The USMC vest with insert is a true level III, or up to 7.62 NATO.
So if they‘re wearing a vest, no pistol cal will reliably penetrate... Of course I‘m excluding the 5.7x28 FN, but that‘s another kettle of fish.


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## Marauder (7 Oct 2002)

Imagine my surprise to learn that my Regiment does indeed have C8s that belong to them (ostenibly for FIBUA), but we still use the C7 because it "fires further"....
Yeah, we‘re a regiment of ****in snipers...
Give me a C8/M203 combo any ****in day o‘ the week....


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## Jarnhamar (7 Oct 2002)

Head shots are a lot harder to make then body shots. I‘ve seen enough police videos (whos primary weapon is the pistol and get a lot more training on it then a soldier would) miss someone their shooting at completly at around 10 feet away (sometiems less). I think i would prefer to hit someone in the chest of center body (even if they had armor) with a stronger pistol round and maybe knock them down or stun them then to try and make a head shot with an LBV and helmet on and probably shaking with addrenilin.
Then again my favorite weapon is the C3. I prefer far rather then short.


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## armd_recce (8 Oct 2002)

Good points Ghost, but I think you‘d be horrified at the general level of police marksmanship and skill at arms. They qualify on static targets at known distances, without having to move and acquire targets (well, my only brief on it was from a metro officer) For all the reasons you mentioned, that‘s why you train in ‘tactical‘ settings under pressure (usually time) to develop CQB pistol skills. Something like IDPA. 
Yes, head shots are too much to expect from soldiers in general who have many other and arguably more important things to train for. But carrying a big bore pistol won‘t give you a quantum leap in defeating body armour. Someone mentioned the desert eagle, about the biggest pistol you could get but probably one of the worst for tactical purposes. Big, heavy, heavy recoil, long, etc etc etc. 
To sum up my ramble, I‘m just saying that there‘s not really anything a .45 or bigger will bring to the party that 9mm won‘t (and that‘s coming from a die hard .45 ACP fan. Nary a round of 9mm in the house). Plus don‘t forget that of all the 9mm‘s faults, penetration isn‘t one of them - it will by a wide margin out penetrate the .45

Oops, forgot to say that there are many cases of police exchanging fire at distances of 5‘ and no one getting hit... Just because they carry a sidearm all day every day doesn‘t mean their the SMEs on the subject. 
And whack whoever said the C7 will ‘shoot farther‘. The only thing you gain with the C7 vice the C8 is ~50m of distance where the round will be above 2700 fps, the magical number for it to fragment. Below 2700 fps it stays intact. C8 is more than suitable for issue as a primary weapon, especially when you the vast majority of fights occur at considerably less than 300m where you‘d need the C7.


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## portcullisguy (8 Oct 2002)

Schewerpunkt, that is not entirely true.

I have several friends who recently graduated Ontario Police College and are members of the Toronto Police Service.  They came through at different times, and all reported the same thing:

During recruit training, you spend a LOT of time on the range, both at OPC and afterwards.  They do live fire training with Simunition in realistic situations that call for judgement and they do build up training on the range, starting with static targets, in good light, to moving targets in poor light, with/without cover, strong-hand, weak-hand, etc.

Even when I worked security, our lame one-day firearms course included scenarios involving dim light and shooting from behind cover, with the wrong hand, reloading from behind cover, etc.  Unfortunately, moving targets could not be reproduced safely at the time.

I think you will find police recruits trained to a much higher standard of pistol marksmanship than the "old dogs" who got on when dinosaurs walked the earth and they were first issued a 6-shooter.

Now, annual requalification requires a minimal amount of effort, from what I hear, and it could be that due to a lack of available time to maintain skills, police officers gradually get worse over the course of their careers.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Oct 2002)

Schwerpunkt i never thought about it like that. I think your right though, because of how little difference between the pistol rounds theres not an quantum leaps in advantages or disadvantages? 

Whats the story behind the five-seven or 5.7 mm? I‘ve heard a little about it (used it in a computer game heh) but nothing factual. Its suposed to penitrate body armor better?

I read that 80% of the worlds population lives in built up areas (cities). Thankfully the canadian army is just starting to now put a bigger importance on FIBUA training. Personally i think, with the odd exception, the days of trench warfare or viet nam type settings int he woods are all but gone. Most of our "enemies" will be in cities and towns, more often then not hiding behind a child or non-combatent. Choosing a C8 over a C7 just seems like the right thing to do. You might lose a bit of distance or bit of accuracy at 3 and 4 hundred meters but can‘t see that being a great disadvantage against the C8‘s size and weight and the idea that at 400 meters its more effective to hit someone with MG fire.
I did a 2 week fibua excersise with the british army in belgium, i really thought their SA80s were crap except for when we were inside the buildings how easy they were to weild fire from cover and climb latters and through windows with.


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## armd_recce (8 Oct 2002)

Ok, I was being too critical of cop shooting skills, based on a buddy of mine that was in metro. As you said, the skills degrade rapidly and the annual qual is a static range type affair. High standards to pass, but not suitable for tactical evaluation. 

Ghost, take a look at the FN web site for info on the 5.7mm,  http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/ss190/ss190.htm  the FiveSeven is actually the pistol that takes that round (as does the P 90). It was specifically designed to defeat body armour and is one of the few (actually the only now that I think about it) cartridge specifically prohibited in Canada. And FN restricts sales of it to LE and military anyway. Excellent little round for a PDW.

I agree with you fully about the C8, shorter bbls are no less accurate, and in fact may be more accurate (less length for a given outside diameter makes for a proportionally stiffer bbl). The only important loss, apart from excess weight, is the distance to which the rounds will fragment. I was wrong before, the distance is actually more like 100m shorter with the 14.5" C8 bbl compared to the 20" C7 bbl. I prefer the 16" length as a compromise, in the C8 / M4 configuration with a collapsing stock. Bottom line, a full size rifle isn‘t really necessary at typical individual weapons ranges. Most evidence indicates that the majority of fights occur at less than 100m, something like over 80%. Especially, as you say, in urban areas.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Oct 2002)

Another modification i really like is what i saw with the french commandos (I really hope the origionator of this thread doesn‘t mind how far off topic its going heh) and what they did to the C9. Up till that point i really didn‘t like it. 200 round box that always made noise, the box would fall leaving you running with 200 rounds trailing behind you, after a good 200 rounds it starts jamming. The french soldiers had a C9 with a short barrel, a barrel handle that folded down somewhat and lastly a collapsable stock that over all made the weapon VERY short, the lenght of a C8. I still don‘t like the jamming factor of the C9 but those modifications sure raised the cool factor of it.


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## Zoomie (11 Oct 2002)

From experience I would say that the C8 was an absolute joy to carry over the C7.  Lighter, smaller and easier to stow in your vehicle.  A couple downsides do exist with its present configuration and I think we have all touched on them (ie. Barrel length, range, accuracy).  Another issue that I found was also its overall reliability.  I found that with the collapsible stock and the size of the return spring, that the C8 was more prone to feed stoppages than that of its bigger cousin.  Call me a stickler, but I would rather have that extra weight and length, if I was guaranteed a good burst on auto when I was storming "the" trench or clearing a room.


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## BillP (11 Oct 2002)

In regards to replacing/modifying the C7 to a compact C8 configuration, with perhaps a 16" barrel as the compromise between the 2, I spotted this site: 
  http://www.mcaroy.com/cadpat2.htm 

Scrolling down,It shows CF personnel with the new Cadpat kit as well as a very interesting looking C8 with a few modualr goodies attached to it! Perhaps the CF might be eventually looking at going the C8/M4 route??


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## Zoomie (11 Oct 2002)

Most probably those weapons were on loan from Diemaco Canada, the weapons manafacturer from Kitchener, ON.  Check out their website :
www.diemaco.com
All the weps can be found there.


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## CH1 (18 Jan 2005)

Sorry, my personal favourite is still the Colt/Springfield 1911 A2 250gr @1150 feet/second.  the only shorcoming is the 7 rnd mags.  but i fixed that problem.


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## KevinB (19 Jan 2005)

CH1 said:
			
		

> Sorry, my personal favourite is still the Colt/Springfield 1911 A2 250gr @1150 feet/second.   the only shorcoming is the 7 rnd mags.   but i fixed that problem.








CH1 - Okay answer me this if there are 8 and 10 rds .45 mags available how do you figure you fixed the problem.  Secondly please show me a 250gr .45aCP round @ 1150   - the Remington 185gr JHP +P round is 1140fps  even the Corbon 185gr is 1150  Now the 230gr Remington Golden Sabre is @ 875 FPS.

Dont get me wrong I am a .45 afficonado - but I have one and I know what to feed it.


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## Kal (19 Jan 2005)

I was wordering the exact same thing.  Seeing as 250gr is a huge bullet; I wasn't even aware rounds of that seize were manufactured commercially for the .45


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## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

Standard Mil issue for the .45 was 250 gr FMJ @ either 850 or950 Fps(grey moment again).  I use jacked up rnds in mine.  I'm very into Bang Bang who went there.  There is some commercial mags for the ACP that will hold 10 rnds, but it is fairly easy to make a longer one.  Draw back is that they catch on every thing & are awkward.  I still have US surplus issue rnds that chrono pretty good.  Not teaching much any more and facts are shuffled to the rear.


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## CH1 (20 Jan 2005)

By the way it is a nice piece! Looks like your armourer did a nice job.  I use the Springfield Armoury model.  A little tighter in the action & slight change to metalurgy from what I found when I got mine, many moons past.  It's seen a fair amt of use without feed or wear problems.  Also went to a better bushing in front, & fine tuned the trigger.  Other than that mine is stock.


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## KevinB (21 Jan 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> I was wordering the exact same thing.   Seeing as 250gr is a huge bullet; I wasn't even aware rounds of that seize were manufactured commercially for the .45



They dont

230gr is the "standard" .45ACP round  -- for .45LC revolvers you can get cast 300gr bullets but they woudl never feed in a .45ACP.

CH1 - Your data is impossible  230gr can be bumped to 925 but it is well above SAAMI - and more importantly NATO pressure (higher than SAAMI) they are definetly unsafe and will rupture the brass and lead to a KABOOM -- your "load" would destroy a pistol.  Period - No if ands or butts.


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## Kal (21 Jan 2005)

Thanks for the clarification, Kevin; I didn't think they were manufatured so large for the .45 ACP.


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## mudgunner49 (24 Jan 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> They dont
> 
> 230gr is the "standard" .45ACP round   -- for .45LC revolvers you can get cast 300gr bullets but they woudl never feed in a .45ACP.
> 
> CH1 - Your data is impossible   230gr can be bumped to 925 but it is well above SAAMI - and more importantly NATO pressure (higher than SAAMI) they are definetly unsafe and will rupture the brass and lead to a KABOOM -- your "load" would destroy a pistol.   Period - No if ands or butts.




Further to KevinB's comments, I call BS on this one.   I have some pretty extensive experience with the .45 Super and a couple of it's progenitors and 230gr@1100 is possible, but only in .45 Super brass (or shortened, reamed out .308 Win.) and with a fully supported barrel.   To attempt this sort of thing in an unmodified 1911 chambered in .45 ACP is foolish to say the least, not to mention extremely irresponsible.   There should be a filter for this sort of crap on the Internet - if I could invent one I'd never have to work again!!

I have also used the 255 gr LSWC for the .45 Colt in the ACP and got about 750 FPS out of it, however the gun and mags had to be tuned for this load specifically - for games only, not for "serious" use.   This recipe does clean a table full of bowling pins very effectively.

Stick to the smoke and mirrors on your airsoft forums...


YMMV

Blake


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## Kal (10 Feb 2005)

Black Hills manufacturers a .45 ACP round of 230gr and a velocity of 950fps.  Is this round no good then?  or for only +P rated firearms?


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## CH1 (13 Feb 2005)

Ok guys, Clarification time!

     Most of the ammo my .45 digests is US issue, circa 1944 - mid 60's because I have access to an almost unlimited amount.  According to the US charts, this is 250 gr, FMJ.  Every once in a while I will chrono a few rounds from each box, and they sit tight around 950 FPS.  The hopped loads are special occasion and not used often.  I have had my armourer check for excess wear and I am ever vigilante.
    
     As I am not a babe in the woods, I am well aware of what can happen & DO NOT reccomend any body use this load.  I build this load for use in this pistol only.  I check headspace constantly, and check all the stress points even under "normal" use.  I use the same procedures across any fire arm.  It is always SAFETY First, whether in the field or RSO on the range.  It has been a long standing habit to check the last casings out of what ever is in my hands at the moment, & do a quick casing check.  

     At this point both the 1911 & 92F have digested a few cases of ammo, & continue to function quite well & accurately.  As for mag capacity, prior to the last bout of gun control, you could buy extended mags.  Years before that we used to build &/or modify mags to fit the occasion. 

    Enuff said.  Thanks guys for the come back.


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## Grunt (25 Feb 2005)

There is nothing wrong with the FN/Inglis Hipower pistol, it is easy to shoot and handles very well (I have one ;D).  The Issued hipower just needs better sights and an ambidextrous safety.


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## DrSbaitso (25 Feb 2005)

Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but what about the new Para High caps? I've never used one, but they seem like they would meet all the requirements for a replacement. Sturdy, high capacity, and available in .45, .40, or 9mm. Aaaand made in canada!


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## KevinB (25 Feb 2005)

Para's QC sucks.

 We are much better off going to the Sig P226 or Glock 17 (as much as I dislike Glocks - it is the perfect pistol).

What we need is a pull and bang pistol (given the amount of training the avg soldier gets with the pistol).  Unfortunately with the BHP many get nervous with it cocked and locked and we dont have a good holster for that sort of carry.

 In an ideal world we would be shooting a few hundred rounds a month and able to stay competant with the system, as such C&L woudl be nice for you get the same trigger pull ever shot.


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## big bad john (25 Feb 2005)

I have used the Sig P226 for my last four years in the Marines.  Prior to that I was a tried and true HP35 9mm man.  You can't have my Sig back.  It is perfect.  I am in love with it for accuracy and reliability.


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## KevinB (26 Feb 2005)

BBJ - I agree that the SIg is an excellent piece of kit - however the decocker is a problem for stupid people - as a result I dont think it is the idela issue gun - guaranteed some moron (insert applicable CF member here) will put it back in the holster still cocked.

 Knowing some assaulter type fellows - several of them wish for a 1911 style .45 - why 1) If you have to shoot someone with a pistol use a .45 2) Single action every time - even a fellow who shoots 50k a year now and then has the occassional hic-up with the double/single trigger pull transition - not a big deal for regualr folk - but doing HR surgical missions that could cost (and is why the US team use custom 1911's for that role)

So given that regular troops will never get the rounds count to before familiar with the pistol - the Glock is the best choice - draw, goes bang, reholster - no safeties, decockers etc.  and it works in 9mm (the other calibre Glocks have some issues)

I am very happy with the BHP - I have my own custom Novak gun - that I put at least 10k down range a year from - so my transition to a work T series Inglis is not big deal - add some skateboard tape and put my own grips on it and voila same fell as my home gun.

Givne that we have no money for a pistol replacment the sight shoudl be replaced with Trjicon Tritium sights - much better under any background or lighting condition.


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## big bad john (26 Feb 2005)

The Sig had one of the same qualities that endeared the BHP to me.  You can abuse it and it still functions.


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## NATO Boy (9 Mar 2005)

armd_recce said:
			
		

> keep it as is, replace with a PDW (like the FN P90, HK PDW), replace with a 5.56mm weapon (perhaps like a C8 or even shorter) or replace with another pistol.



In terms of filling in the blanks, here's some interesting options:

1. Keep it as is: Well, haven't we been doing this since 1944 since it's a proven design...? It's now 2005, and the Inglis HPs are getting harder to maintain.

2. Replace with a PDW: The Sterling used to be in huge numbers; why not bring back the war stocks (unless they're gone? HK SMGs are expensive and thus difficult to issue in mass; special PDWs like the FN P90 and HK MP7 use non-NATO Standard ammo (5.7X28 and 4.*X** mm respectively.)

3. Replace with a 5.56 weapon: The C8 is what first comes to mind (since it's in the system now) but it's too bulky for replacing a pistol. One interesting weapon I've seen is the Olympic Arms OA 93 AR Pistol or even a Select-Fire model(Antonio Banderas used one in desperado a small AR design with the gas and spring system mounted forward of the upper receiver (like a ZM LR 300) but it's only about 12 - 16" overall length. Logistically, it's great; it uses 5.56, it's fed by any STANAG/M-16 mag, uses most m-16 parts, and it's got a better range than most 9mm sidearms.

4. Replace with another pistol: The Sig 226 (or is it the 228) is in the system now; the Glock 17 or Glock 19 are rugged Polymer Pistols that fire 9x19mm and even have slightly higher mag capacities.

Unfortunately, all these options cost money. The Sig seems to be getting a good start (considering my unit won't see them for another decade, lol) and funding trials on a new 5.56 weapon or PDW becomes moot when CTS and other pronects are underway.

"Sigh" but it would be nice to have a Glock 17...


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## Bomber (9 Mar 2005)

Some day the PDW project might will ramp up again, and we could be in for some really fancy guns.  The MP7 is a wicked weapon, 40 rounds in your hand, held in the mag in your palm.  Plus it is light enough for someone with "healthy" upper body strength to wield easily.  fitted with the EOtech, it would probably make the best CSS weapon.  The P90 is to "out there" for me with that crazy mag system, 50 rounds is nice, but it felt awkward to change the mag.  And with the woes this board has with the tac vest, wait until you try to find a place to put an 11 inch long magazine.  I have no experience with pistols other than the HP on the range once or twice a year, but if the FN 5.7 is up to its hype, and i think it is, I think they might want to look at adopting it.  Punching through body armour at 100m is pretty impressive.  Though this might be a little bit politically unsavoury, apparently the cops won;t even entertain this weapon for fear of it getting into the hands of criminals.


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## NATO Boy (9 Mar 2005)

Bomber said:
			
		

> if the FN 5.7 is up to its hype, and i think it is, I think they might want to look at adopting it. Punching through body armour at 100m is pretty impressive. Though this might be a little bit politically unsavoury, apparently the cops won;t even entertain this weapon for fear of it getting into the hands of criminals.



Not only that, but apparently FN Herstal prohibits the export of 5.7x28mm to Western Countries; as well, most of their Five seveN products are only being marketed to Law Enforcement...a shame if this is true.


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## KevinB (9 Mar 2005)

The 5.7 is all HYPE

The round sacrifices terminal effects to gather penetrative qualities.   The round is about as effective as stabbing someone with an icepick.

Now you may kill someone with an icepick after a few dozen stabs - but it will take them time to bleed out - this time is the crucial variable in a CQB scenario.
To quote a rather respected US military ammuntion guru LCdr Gary Roberts USNR


> *Terminal Wounding Effects of FN 5.7 x 28 mm Projectile.*
> 
> 1. Clearly the 5.7 x 28 mm serves NO purpose. I have personally
> fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue
> ...



If you want contact info for LCdr Roberts hit me up on the DIN




 FWIW FN does sell the 5.7 pistols and civilian legal (semi auto) P90 in the US...

and in case anyone is wondering Dahlstrom and Powley are RCMP depot folk at the fireams cell there, the others quoted do similar things for their departments or units - any one unit looking at this system that has put some sort of testing into it has made the same determination -- DON'T DO IT


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## mudgunner49 (9 Mar 2005)

NATO Boy said:
			
		

> Not only that, but apparently FN Herstal prohibits the export of 5.7x28mm to Western Countries; as well, most of their Five seveN products are only being marketed to Law Enforcement...a shame if this is true.



Not true - it is the Canadian gov't that has made the 5.7 ammo "prohibited"...

Bomber, if you are engaging with a pistol (ANY pistol) at 100m, you brought the wrong gal to the dance... go stand in the corner!!


Blake


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## Kal (9 Mar 2005)

Kevin, spot on as usual.  I believe I said the exact same thing about 3 months ago in a similiar thread.  Springfield XD thread, I think...  Interesting enough, stabbing with the icepick would actually be more effective.  There's an FBI statistic that uncovered that about 80% of people stabbed, die from their wounds, compared to only 20% when shot.


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## LordOsborne (10 Mar 2005)

As i understand it, the P90 has found its way to some law enforcement agencies. i even found an article where a Texas SWAT trooper managed to kill a suspect during an altercation. (granted the suspect was also hit from 5.56 ammo as well) give it a read over:

http://www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm


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## Bomber (10 Mar 2005)

KevinB, thanks for the info.  I will ask the small arms guys if they are still even entertaining weapon, this if all this is written about its ability to not be effective.  MudGunner, I can't even formulate a snappy comback, I have delete about 30 lines trying to incorporate shooting, 100m, and dancing girls, but I can't.  If am soldier only has a PDW and is competent enough to shoot it, it may come down to a point where they have to shoot out to 100m.  I don;t know what I am really trying to say, other than maybe the bad guy will be forced to lie down dead, or duck, giving you a chance to also hid, run away, or trust in your PT and charge him, screaming, till you get closer for a better shot.l


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## badpup (10 Mar 2005)

And you won't have to continue paying the HP a 6 figure income for the rest of it's shelf life


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Mar 2005)

badpup said:
			
		

> And you won't have to continue paying the HP a 6 figure income for the rest of it's shelf life



Huh?


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