# NO FRENCH For Married Pilots out of BMOQ



## westcoastboy (15 Jan 2011)

Looks like there is NO FRENCH for the NEW Pilots out of St Jean BMOQ if your married......Straight to OJT
If your NOT then you have to stay and do FRENCH at the St Jean Language School for a year


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## lethalLemon (15 Jan 2011)

Wow... that's completely fair  :


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Wow... that's completely fair  :



Obviously you're making that determination based on a thorough understanding of the rationale behind the decision.  So, why don't you share all those details with us and we'll examine the facts.


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## armyvern (16 Jan 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Wow... that's completely fair  :



Have you done this course? Do you understand how it works? I have.

It's a year of SLT, during which one can not take any leave (besides the Christmas break and a March Break). It is not a course that a fresh pilot requires right NOW. So, after having already been away from family that you actually still live with (because you're married) doing BMOQ, you go straight to your OJT instead of stuck in St Jean for another full year without your family. Plenty of time for SLT in the future ... and hopefully at a location where your wife/kids are.

What's the issue?
 :


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## Franko (16 Jan 2011)

At least they get the _opportunity_. Most Snr NCOs don't regardless of time in.

Regards


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## REDinstaller (16 Jan 2011)

I'm one of the lucky ones, slated for SLT 2012 in St.Jean. Then posted to the CFLRS as a PL WO in 2013.


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## The_Mauler (25 Jul 2011)

I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary shit like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!


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## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2011)

Do I hear some snivelling here?  ???


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## The Bread Guy (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary crap like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!


To follow up on Jim's comment above, I'm guessing you're not going to get any sympathy from people who would gladly take your place at the drop of a hat.


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## Jorkapp (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary crap like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!



Seriously?

You know you're on a snooze-and-booze course when all you can find to complain about is the colour of your shirts and epaulettes...  :


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## yoman (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary crap like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!



Go on a trip to Ottawa if your so desperate... 

I found the QM at CFLRS to be quite good for the year I used their services.


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## MAJONES (25 Jul 2011)

Think about it from a financial standpoint; if the member is married they have quarters elsewhere.  That means that the CF picks up the tab for the members rations and quarters as well as having to pay the separation allowance.  (At least that is the way it was when I went through, not sure if the rules have changed).  Ends up being a pretty expensive tab to send someone on a course that they really have very little need for at that point in their career.  
As for making the single pilots do the course, why not?  The CF is going to be paying them regardless of where they are, why not stick them where they can learn something other than making coffee?


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## Scott (25 Jul 2011)

The others are handling the whole "I don't _wanna_ do SLT...whywhywhywhy" thingy just fine...



> I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!



Give this a looooong think, chappy, and tell me if you believe you would ever have stones enough to utter it in front of your girl. Because methinks this would go over like a lead frickin balloon and lead to a swift kick in those stones.

Show some class, please.

Edit: Because I arsed up the quote box.


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## vonGarvin (25 Jul 2011)

I know nothing of the course, but why treat married/single people differently?  The member wasn't issued a family (to drag a saying out from the depths of the Cold War era), and if the needs of the service come first, why differentiate?  Why make single (unmarried) people take a path different from their married peers?

From part 1, of the Canadian Human Rights Act:



> For all purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, *marital status*, family status, disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted.



From here:  link.



Just saying.


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## HItorMiss (25 Jul 2011)

That is a hard point to argue TK

Initally I was on the suck it cup cake side but then again your point is valid, now I am all conflicted.... OP dont ever marry for a service reason the she gets half your stuff when she splits.


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## aesop081 (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-



There are much worse places to be, you just don't know enough to see it yet.



> neccessary crap like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts,



I wouldn't call those things necessary...........



> still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-



Not that big a deal.  You still got paid last 15th right ? You ate today right ?


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## TN2IC (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary crap like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!



The army side of me wants to say something. But I"ll just be nice and nod my head.  :nod:

Regards,
TN2IC


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## Gunner98 (25 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary shit like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!



Worst possible posting - CFLRS - really?  Have you been to Moose Jaw or Portage La Prairie?

The important benefits of a real base are: a QM with Air Force slip-ons and blue T-shirts in stock.  - Ditto - MJ and PLP!

Yes I certainly recommend getting married to avoid a course or posting.  Nothing says love more than regrets.

I can't wait to read your memoirs of marital bliss and flying duties over the next decade or two.  

Here is a positive spin: In 6-8 years you could be ahead of your (now married) peers on the promotion list to Major because you have good French scores.  

If you have made some friends during your course   why don't you ask one of those married guys to send you some slip-ons and t-shirts in the mail?


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## Zoomie (25 Jul 2011)

SLT isn't so bad.  You won't lose your spot on the waiting list for PFT/BFT - so no worries there.  Better there, learning something, than at some unit somewhere being the photocopy b$tch.

St-Jean is an alright place to hang out, close to Montreal and also to Burlington, Vermont.


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## dimsum (25 Jul 2011)

CPGear has AF epaulettes (or ask your friends.)  Canex will have blue t-shirts.  I bought those when I was in SLT, set myself back maybe $40, and got a French profile out of it.  If that's really what bothers you, that's what...one night at La Trinquette?

As Simian Turner says, that profile will put you way ahead of those who became Photocopy-O at 4XX sqn.  SLT, as crappy as it may seem while there, is definitely worth it at this stage in the game.  Once you're through the training system, you won't have time due to flying and courses and you'll actually need that profile to, ya know, get promoted.


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## Scoobs (28 Jul 2011)

Having done SLT for 8 months back in 2000 right out of the Officer's Basic Course (whatever it was called back then), I appreciate the issue of being separated from your family.  I'm a DEO and was already married for four years at that point.  There was no distinction between married or non-married, you did the course.  I agree with the other posters that doing SLT is actually good for you.  When it comes to merit boards for promotion to Maj, you get points for a valid French profile.  Believe me, one point can make the difference between promotion or not.

The vast majority of officer trades now do not receive SLT.  This puts them at a disadvantage to those who have had the formal training in French, be in on SLT taken before the policy change or via RMC or other means.  Thus, if I was you, I would study hard (seriously) and achieve at least a profile.  Work on the French and keep the profile current.  It will help you if you ever want to be a Major.

I asked the more senior pers in my trade what is being done for those now put at a disadvantage and I was told that supervisors can free up the time to send pers on local courses.  Ya right!  Work is very busy and sending your junior officer to do French vice work, for the most part, is just not done.  Yes, supervisors have the responsiblity to ensure that their pers receive the opportunities to progress, but how to do this is the challenge.  Frankly, I wish that all new officers coming in were forced to take the SLT.  That way everybody is on an equal footing.

As for the other comments about your choice of words, future flying, officer abilities, whining, etc., the other posters are trying to tell you to realize something.  First and foremost, you are an officer above anything else.  Take this as a learning opportunity (junior officers are expected to put their foot in their mouth, it is how you handle yourself afterwards and what you learn from it that will make you a good leader or not).


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## bison33 (28 Jul 2011)

As a retired  FE who's been there done that, here's my take:

1. "If the military wanted you to have a wife(family), they would have issued you one". Heard this one way too many times, usually from thrice divorced crotchety old Warrants or Majors. Get used to hearing that.

2. "Your single so we can make you do anything we want. The married guys need to spend time with their wives(families)". Your immed supervisor should be slapped for saying that but get used to it.

Be thankful you get  SLT at a young age. I know of folks with 30 yrs in getting it (needed to be a CWO) and have a hard time learning. Much easier when you are young. I have seen many a 2lt wallow away for 2 years waiting for any course. So you get another year in partyville and learn French, is it that bad? Well, maybe ask to get out of SLT and spend the next 2 years wallowing away being someone's b***h in Ops or the Library or Scheduling or maybe as the CO's secretary's personal photocopier, or even as the canteen queen. Then you get PFT/BFT then an OTU. Now you are flying for a few years, making AC allowance and if with TacHel, LDA or if in Pet, even more money. Now you are asked to go on SLT. You'll whine about losing over a grand a month  and then you might end up in a non flying job for another 2-3 years. You'll never win. Just take the good with the bad, complain to your buddies (always good to vent) but not to the FE, we'd just tell to to shut it anyways  ;D, then carry on. My  :2c:


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## armyvern (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> I`ve no qualms with learning french, it`s just that CFLS straight out of CFLRS is the worst possible posting-  you continue to be treated like an invalid, and you get NONE of the benefits of being on a real base, ie: an Air Force officer here is not allowed to go to QM and ask for basic, neccessary shit like Air Force epaulettes, or blue airforce T-shirts, so there are, after four months, still guys walking around with Air Force berets, green T-shirts, and green epaulettes on their combats-   real professional!  This list goes on and on, and I damn sure wish I`d have married my gf before finishing my officer course!



I'm going to call BS on this. It's not that you "aren't allowed" to go to clothing stores etc to pick up blue t-shirts and epaulettes which will apparently better-assist you in learning french ... it's that you have to actually "sign out of class" to go do things like this (and visit pay office too etc).

Successful SLT is based upon "minimum X" number of hours of instruction; class days and schedule are laid out from the get-go (our class day in Borden last year ran from 0800-1500hrs daily); leave only occured for Christmas (6 annual) and March Break (5 annual); if you need to go to clothing stores or pay etc --- you sign out of class and sign back in when you get back. These missing minutes/hours are tracked. This ensures that you meet the minimum PS and CF hours of instruction required. Each course has 'an overage' of classroom time built in to the overall scheduled course time to allow students to achieve this and still accomplish admin.

So yes, you can go. You can't just get up and go whenever you feel the whim kick in. Ask your course senior for an absence sheet --- and use it. Apparently, you are an adult. Given the assinine girlfriend comment though, I could certainly be mistaken.

Désolé.


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## The_Mauler (29 Jul 2011)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> That is a hard point to argue TK
> 
> Initally I was on the suck it cup cake side but then again your point is valid, now I am all conflicted.... OP dont ever marry for a service reason the she gets half your stuff when she splits.



Half of sweet FA is still ... sweet FA.  

For everyone else:  I`m not saying that this is some gruelling nightmare, far from it, but there are far better places to be and, IMO, far more career relevant things to be doing.  Also, if you`ve never walked into the FSL course straight off of the officer course, you have no idea what you`re talking about and your opinions on the matter are hardly relevant.


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## armyvern (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> Half of sweet FA is still ... sweet FA.
> 
> For everyone else:  I`m not saying that this is some gruelling nightmare, far from it, but there are far better places to be and, IMO, far more career relevant things to be doing.  Also, if you`ve never walked into the FSL course straight off of the officer course, you have no idea what you`re talking about and your opinions on the matter are hardly relevant.



Good luck in the future with your piss-poor attitude. 

I hope that you are not representative of the Officers forthcoming in our future leadership. This NCM shakes her head & thinks we can do soooooo much better than this. 

If you somehow to think that your situation is unique and that only "you" are of informed opinion ... we are in for a real treat the moment you take over command or leadership of anything, let alone anyone. Why did you post your whine here if those of us who've been there and done it don't have a clue (in your clueless opinion)? Looking for sympathy?

Have you signed out of your classroom yet to go get those critical to success slip-ons and t-shirts yet like you are able to do? Working hard on that french class today I see given the time of 11:59 local.  :


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## aesop081 (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> you have no idea what you`re talking about and your opinions on the matter are hardly relevant.



....and your opinion on better/worse places to be is irrelevant. You have not been to anywhere / done anything of enough significance to know.


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## The_Mauler (29 Jul 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Good luck in the future with your piss-poor attitude.
> 
> I hope that you are not representative of the Officers forthcoming in our future leadership. This NCM shakes her head & thinks we can do soooooo much better than this.
> 
> ...



My, but you are militant!  
The concern, as far as the epaulettes and t-shirts were concerned, was with dress and deportment- which I happen to take seriously-, but maybe you don`t care either way?  I am fairly new to this forum, but do you need to be so hostile?


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## aesop081 (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> was with dress and deportment- which I happen to take seriously-,



We have people here, officers and NCMs, who do not wear the blue ranks because of shortages. If operational folks can get on with the job wearing the old style ranks, i think you can too.


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## armyvern (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> My, but you are militant!
> The concern, as far as the epaulettes and t-shirts were concerned, was with dress and deportment- which I happen to take seriously-, but maybe you don`t care either way?  I am fairly new to this forum, but do you need to be so hostile?



Militant? How quaint.

Dress and deportment is a big part of my current day-job. Believe you me --- I care; it's in the profile.   

The life crises over such (it is the big complaint you voiced wrt being on course after all)?? The 'you ain't me' so your opinions aren't worthy because I am special comment?? The "I should have married the girlfriend to avoid the CF screwing me around on "worthless" career courses"??

Your issues; not mine. Learn to deal with them, else when an actually worthwile and important problem arises in your future you will find that others will solve them whilst you flounder.


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## Good2Golf (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> My, but you are *militant*!
> The concern, as far as the epaulettes and t-shirts were concerned, was with dress and deportment- which I happen to take seriously-, but maybe you don`t care either way?  I am fairly new to this forum, but do you need to be so hostile?



I sure hope so.  Imagine if people in the military were....civilianized.  Luckily we have sergeant majors like ArmyVern and Mr. Seggie to help keep that from happening.

Son, you need a serious review of your motivation and career ethic.  Hopefully you find it while learning French.

Regards
G2G


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## dimsum (29 Jul 2011)

Whoa, whoa, why don't everyone take a step back and take a few deep breaths.

Mauler:  People may seem hostile because to be honest, this isn't such a big deal.  Are you getting jacked up by the school SM for having the wrong colours?  If so, then maybe you have a case for signing out of class and getting the epaulettes and t-shirts.  If not, then I think he/she understands that it's really not that big of a priority.  

Also, there was (is still?) a shortage of the blue-on-olive epaulettes, even at operational squadrons/bases....and you'd think that they get the stocks first.  Again, no big deal.  

(Not sarcastic) What do you think is a relevant use of your pre-wings OJT time if not SLT?


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## armyvern (29 Jul 2011)

I'm breathing perfectly fine Dimsum; no need to worry about me.  

I would like an answer to that "has he signed out yet question" ... as he certainly has insinuated that he had zero means of going to clothing to accomplish such with his earlier post and ergo why he is so hard done by in this big military racket ...


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## Gunner98 (29 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> My, but you are militant!
> The concern, as far as the epaulettes and t-shirts were concerned, was with dress and deportment- which I happen to take seriously-, but maybe you don`t care either way?  I am fairly new to this forum, but do you need to be so hostile?



A pilot who takes dress and deportment seriously, you are a special officer.  Give it some time and things will become more important.  Most officers over the past couple of decades have spent months of their lives in St. Jean or some sort of SLT.  There is a rather big difference between being militant/hostile and being realistic.  You are receiving feedback from Sgt-Majors and Senior Officers with decades in uniform yet somehow we are irrelevant compared to the experiences of a recent BOMQ grad.  Bonne chance and enjoy your time in the Mega, I found a way to do so for several months of my life on different occasions.


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## gcclarke (30 Jul 2011)

The_Mauler said:
			
		

> Half of sweet FA is still ... sweet FA.
> 
> For everyone else:  I`m not saying that this is some gruelling nightmare, far from it, but there are far better places to be and, IMO, far more career relevant things to be doing.  Also, if you`ve never walked into the FSL course straight off of the officer course, you have no idea what you`re talking about and your opinions on the matter are hardly relevant.



Oooh ooh oooh, does this mean that my opinions on the matter are relevant? 

3 days prior to my course's graduation from CFLRS, us naval engineering types were informed that no, we wouldn't actually be all moving to Halifax to proceed on Second Language Training there, instead we'd all be staying in the Mega and doing our SLT at the St-Jean CFLS Det. 

Would it have been nicer to be on a (predominately) Naval base? Yes.

Were there "better things" we could have been doing to progress with our career? I'd honestly argue no. Sure, if I had skipped that portion, I *might* have made Lt(N) about half a year quicker. That is of course assuming that they re-jiggered the course timings at the Naval Engineering School to accommodate us, and that we didn't just end up sitting around doing nothing for the months that elapsed. But, even with that assumption, I would now be an Lt(N) who couldn't speak french worth a tinker's dam. Would this be good for my prospects at future promotion(s)? Hell no. It's a heck of a lot harder to get on these types of courses when you have an actual job to do. 

And more importantly:

Did we have a say in the matter? No.

Did we suck it up and make the best of the situation? Yes. 

Even assuming that you continue to live in the Mega, it's not all that bad. You can get your internet connections, cable, etc in your rooms. The mess is rather decent, and rather active. And if not, downtown St Jean can definitely be fun, and Montreal's a hop skip and a jump away. Make the best of the hand dealt to you instead of whining about how others might have been given better cards.


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## Ayrsayle (30 Jul 2011)

Lacking the personal experience with the system, but looking at it from the other side of the fence:

I will very shortly be a new OCdt going through this system, and it kills me that french ISN'T mandatory for my trade (Infantry). I understand the rationale (as I will not likely need it right away), but I feel like this is truly an amazing opportunity to further your own knowledge and gain a career edge. I fully intend to push as hard as I can to get on it (if possible) and I'd be grateful enough to do it in my PJ's.

Getting paid to be a student, how horrible!  I paid through the nose for my university education (which included learning a second language - Latin - which I did not excel at but saw the utility of). If you are that disappointed in the opportunity, I can assure you there are more like me that would happily take your place.

My apologies for the rant, stuff like this seems to hit a nerve.


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## armyvern (30 Jul 2011)

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> Lacking the personal experience with the system, but looking at it from the other side of the fence:
> 
> I will very shortly be a new OCdt going through this system, and it kills me that french ISN'T mandatory for my trade (Infantry). I understand the rationale (as I will not likely need it right away), but I feel like this is truly an amazing opportunity to further your own knowledge and gain a career edge. I fully intend to push as hard as I can to get on it (if possible) and I'd be grateful enough to do it in my PJ's.
> 
> ...



Ahhh, what a gracious relief. Thank you.

Keep the great attitude; it will serve you well. Ensure that you advise your mangler of your desire for the course --- annually if necessary. Best of luck to you.

Vern


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## Franko (30 Jul 2011)

Locking this one up. It's spiraled nicely.

To the OP, you've been told by a MWO, WO, a couple of Capts, a Maj to grow up.

Take the hint.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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