# Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)



## George Wallace

Just for those who may feel that all is well and that they have no fear of terrorism or violence here in Canada:  (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Ottawa prof arrested, suspect in 1980 Paris bombing

CTV.ca News Staff 
*
The RCMP has arrested a Canadian man in Quebec at the request of France, which accuses the man of being behind a bomb attack that killed four people at a Paris synagogue in 1980. *

The Department of Justice confirmed to CTV.ca that Hassan Diab, 55, was arrested at his home in Gatineau, Quebec Thursday. 

"The arrest was made under a provisional arrest warrant for extradition as a request from France," Justice spokesperson Chris Girouard said. 

Under a provisional arrest warrant, the official extradition request must be filed within 45 days. Diab will have a bail hearing within 24 hours of his arrest, according to Girouard. 

France's Minister of the Interior, Michele Alliot-Marie, confirmed the arrest Thursday and credited cooperation between Canadian and French authorities. 

Diab is a part-time sociology professor at the University of Ottawa, CTV News has learned. According to the university officials, he teaches one class at the undergraduate level. 

Diab is also listed as a contract instructor in the department of sociology and anthropology at Carleton University for the fall of 2008. Carleton officials could not be reached for comment Thursday evening. 

Two French anti-terrorism judges travelled to Canada earlier this week according to The Associated Press. Investigators are searching Diab's home and office for clues, including DNA samples. 

A year ago the story broke that Diab was being investigated by French authorities. He told French media it was a case of mistaken identity. 

Three French citizens and one Israeli woman were killed outside a synagogue in a posh area of Paris when a bomb went off minutes before a crowd of people were due to emerge from the synagogue. Twenty others were hurt. 

The attack took place on a Friday evening, at the start of the Jewish Sabbath. More than 200,000 marched in France to protest the attack. 

According to the French magazine L'Express, French authorities believe the bombing was arranged by a Palestinian militant group involved in a dispute with Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization. 

Diab's name was attached to the group by German intelligence, The Associated Press is reporting. 

(News footage on Link.)


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## twistedcables

Notwithstanding the usual (and empty) caveats of a presumption of innocence.  I tend to lean towards the side of the agencies that have the information that the media does not (and should not).

I have to say, very few deeds are as low as wanting to bomb a place of worship. That's when you can use the term EVIL appropriately.  Personally, I want to see more initiative from the mainstream Muslim community.  This is not (at all) to suggest we unfairly target a whole community but unless everyone works together, its true what they say: not a question of IF but WHEN.

Vigilance.

"Lest We Forget" should not become an empty phrase.  VIGILANCE is its core.


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## Shec

I hate to think what this innocent victim of mistaken identity taught the young minds that he was instructing.   A Desert Eagle .50AE is just the ticket for this SoB.


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## FastEddy

Shec said:
			
		

> I hate to think what this innocent victim of mistaken identity taught the young minds that he was instructing.   A Desert Eagle .50AE is just the ticket for this SoB.




Oh ! that's not the Canadian way, "Nox Vulpes" will be very displeased with you.

Cheers.


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## twistedcables

SOURCE: Terrorism Focus - Volume V, Issue 39 Jamestown Foundation

SPAIN’S GUARDIA CIVIL SEIZES TERRORIST MANUAL ADVOCATING “SECRECY IN JIHAD”

Spain’s Guardia Civil has released details of a terrorist manual discovered in the Catalonian home of Muhammad Mrabet, a Moroccan national accused of organizing an al-Qaeda cell that sent prospective suicide bombers to Iraq. The most notorious product of Mrabet’s network was Belgacem Bellil, an Algerian who detonated a truck carrying 3,500 pounds of explosives at the Italian camp at al-Nasiriyah in 2003, killing 19 Italian soldiers and nine Iraqis.

As detailed by the Spanish daily El Pais, the 30-page Arabic language document was entitled, “Secrecy in Jihad is a Legitimate Duty - Security Manual" (El Pais [Madrid], November 10). As its title suggests, the manual provides a detailed description of the means and methods of covert operations, as sanctioned by selected Islamic scholars. “Secrecy is a key factor in every war. It is a mistake not to use it for jihad, because the infidel leaders recruit thousands of intelligence agents to obtain information about the mujahideen… Many ulama [religious scholars] allowed the use of lies to achieve a religious benefit that may put an end to the punishment inflicted on Muslims by infidels.”

Practical advice is given on methods of disguise, avoiding surveillance, forging passports, encrypting communications, using invisible ink and how to behave during police interrogations. The structure and functioning of a terrorist cell is explained in detail, with the author insisting the cell’s members must agree on “four key issues: obedience, secrecy, patience and the defense of the amirs.”

Intelligence work is also emphasized. The active jihadi should prepare by studying not only the secret services of his host nation, but also other radical Islamist groups operating in the area in order to divert police attention from the cell if necessary. Earlier successful jihadi operations must be examined in detail and meetings with experienced jihadis should be organized. Secrecy is to be upheld at all times:

It is necessary to change the way of dressing, the haircut, the place of residence, car, daily routes, arrival and departure times, places, and meetings…Use nicknames, false names and codes, even within the members of the same group; speak in a low voice, do not say much; to talk far too much may provide some information to the enemy and damage the rest of the mujahideen.

The author of the jihadi security manual remains unknown. In recent years Catalonia has become known as one of Europe’s most important centers for recruiting and training suicide bombers on their way to Iraq (La Vanguardia [Barcelona], June 3, 2007; see also Terrorism Monitor, June 7, 2007).

***Similar documents have been found among groups arrested all over the world: Canada, the UK, Australia and the U.S.  I am unsure if Netherlands and Denmark have also captured these same docs.

VIGILANCE


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## leroi

Follow-Up to initial article: File on 1980 Paris Bombing Revealed

Reproduced under the fair dealings provision of the Copyright Act

 November 20, 2008 at 8:29 PM EST

OTTAWA — The author of the 1980 bombing of a synagogue paraded in the streets of Paris with two fake Cypriot passports, and carried a stack of $100 U.S. bills to pay for the material used in his deadly deed, according to French police records released Thursday.

The newly unsealed documents are part of the extradition case against Hassan Diab, an Ottawa sociology professor and Canadian citizen born and raised in Lebanon who was arrested in connection with the bombing last week.

According to information collected by French authorities since the 1980 attack, the bomber bought a Suzuki motorcycle for $1,000 U.S. at a store named Moto Shopping Etoile on Sept. 23.

Two days later, the bespectacled terrorist rented a Citroën GS in the French capital.

 About 10 kilograms of explosives were stashed in bags at the back of the bike, which was blown up 15 metres away from the Copernic Street synagogue on Oct. 3, killing four people and injuring about 40 others. A few days later, the car was found abandoned in a parking lot, with leftover food inside.

During his stay in Paris, the alleged terrorist was also caught stealing wire cutters and paid $100 U.S. for a night at his Celtic Hotel room with a prostitute, who pointed out his smoking habits and the fact he was circumcised.

French authorities feel the carnage would have been much worse had the bomb detonated 25 minutes later, as hundreds of worshippers were exiting, and if security measures had not prevented the terrorist from parking the motorcycle any closer.

Twenty-eight years later, Mr. Diab appeared in an Ottawa court, fighting extradition to France where he is accused of murder, attempted murder, and willful destruction of property by an organized group, all in relation to attack ... 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081120.wdiab1120/BNStory?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp


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## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)

*Wife says accused prof is innocent in Paris blast*

Updated: Fri Nov. 21 2008 13:58:40

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA — The wife of a university professor accused in a 1980 Paris terrorist bombing says she is confident her husband had nothing to do with the attack. 

French police allege Hassan Diab played a role in the blast at a synagogue which killed four people. They are seeking his extradition. 

Diab's wife, Rania Tfaily, herself a university professor, told an Ontario Superior Court hearing on Friday she believes the charges against him are a mistake. 

She says she's prepared to post thousands of dollars in bail. 

Diab has been in custody since his arrest last week and is seeking bail as part of his extradition hearing. 

Tfaily says their relationship has been strained in the last year, but she still supports him. 

"I believe he's innocent, I've known him for some time," Tfaily told Justice Michel Charbonneau of Ontario Superior Court. 

Questioned by federal lawyer Claude Lefrancois, she said she and Diab had discussed political events throughout their relationship including terrorism, the deaths of innocent people and mass murder. 

"I know enough of that to realize he would never do such a thing," she said. 

"It is not going to be the first time or the last time that innocent people are accused," she said. 

The RCMP arrested Diab, 55, at the request of French authorities, who submitted affidavits to back their claim of Diab's involvement in the deadly attack. 

The evidence includes claims by French police that Diab used an alias and a false Cypriot passport to enter France in 1980 before buying a motorscooter that carried explosives that detonated outside the synagogue. 

The evidence also includes police sketches of the bombing suspect based on witness descriptions, and old passport photos.


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## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)


*Bombing suspect's ex-wife questioned his marriage motivation*

Terrorist allegations come as complete surprise
Cassandra Drudi, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Sunday, November 23, 2008
The American ex-wife of a man accused in one of Europe's most shocking terrorist incidents suspected their marriage may have been a ploy to get an U.S. green card and was not surprised when she was questioned by authorities about their relationship a few weeks ago.

"That was under suspect from the very get-go," said Heather Winne, 35, of Hassan Naim Diab's marriage intentions.

A green card, or permanent resident card, gives its bearer official immigration status in the United States.

Mr. Diab, 55, was arrested at his Hull apartment on Nov. 13. He is wanted by French authorities in connection with a terrorist bombing at a Paris synagogue in October 1980 that killed four and injured dozens.

The allegations against Mr. Diab came as a shock to Ms. Winne, but she was not surprised that someone might want to question her about their relationship.

"The bombing, yes, I was surprised about. It totally took me off guard."

Ms. Winne was questioned for several hours while at work. She would not say who had questioned her.

Ms. Winne and Mr. Diab met in 1993 when he was an adjunct professor at Syracuse University where she was taking sociology classes, Ms. Winne said. They married in 1994 and separated in October 1995, when their daughter was born. The divorce was finalized in 1996.

"When my daughter was born things kind of took a turn for the worst," she said.

Ms. Winne's daughter, now 13, had been in contact with Mr. Diab over the phone and online until about two weeks before "this whole episode" took place, she said.

"Things came out online maybe a week after I was spoken to," Ms. Winne said. "I've followed the story very close, so I'm just waiting to hear the outcome."

René Duval, Mr. Diab's lawyer, said the idea that his client may have been motivated to marry Ms. Winne for U.S. permanent resident status is unfounded.

"Based on my confidential knowledge of certain information, this is sheer nonsense. This is yet again another way of trying to discredit Mr. Diab," he said.

"It's basically a smearing campaign. That's what it is."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008


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## twistedcables

Hence the attention paid to immigration policies and fighting terrorism.  It's not about being xenophobic - that's just stupid - it's about taking a critical look at entry points as a natural course of action in any coherent security program.


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## FastEddy

[quote 
[/quote]

What would you expect a Wife or Mother to say ?.

Let the Courts and his peers decide if he's Innocent.


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## Spanky

Oh his wife says he's innocent!  Well, that's good enough for me!  :


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## Drag

What do his neighbours say?  Was he " A nice quiet guy"


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## Greymatters

twistedcables said:
			
		

> “Secrecy in Jihad is a Legitimate Duty - Security Manual" (El Pais [Madrid], November 10).



Unlikely, but has anyone found a link to a copy of this available on-line?


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## leroi

This slide show by Martin Rudner and Angela Gendron is worth viewing. Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians of the internal threat for some time. Unfortunately, Canadian MSM and some politicians have often not taken him seriously.

Penetrating Terror Threats: Counterintelligence as Counter Terrorism.

(Courtesy of The Canadian Centre of Intelligence And Security Studies.)

http://www.cacp.ca/media/events/efiles/103/DrMartinRudnerMs.pdf


***Mods, please feel free to move***


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## Greymatters

That organization (CCISS) was only formed in 2002 - saying its been around 'for some time' is an exaggeration. 

Having said that, its nice to see a half-decent presentation on the subject...


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## leroi

leroi said:
			
		

> This slide show by Martin Rudner and Angela Gendron is worth viewing. Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians of the internal threat for some time. Unfortunately, Canadian MSM and some politicians have often not taken him serious.



Actually Greymatters, if you re-read my highlighted sentence above, you'll see that's not what I said. It makes no claim that the organization has been around 'for some time.' My sentnce indicates Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians 'for some time'.


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## Greymatters

My error, I was going by the org not the person...


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## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.    (Link in Title)

*Ottawa prof loses bid for bail in 1980 bombing case*


Updated: Thu Dec. 04 2008 10:10:52

The Canadian Press

A university professor facing murder charges from a 1980 bombing in Paris has been denied bail as he awaits hearings for extradition to France. 

Hassan Diab has been in custody since his arrest Nov. 13 at the request of French authorities, who allege he was involved in the explosion that killed four people outside a synagogue in the French capital. 

Canadian government lawyers had argued Diab would be a flight risk if he was allowed to go free before the extradition proceedings begin, likely next month. 

Ontario Superior Court Justice Michel Charbonneau agreed, saying in his ruling Wednesday that "all the ingredients exist to spur a flight in this case." 

Charbonneau said evidence in the bail hearings last month -- including extensive trips in and out of Lebanon from 1998 to 2006 and a history of residence in several countries -- suggests Diab "does not have any real ties anywhere." 

The judge added that evidence provided by the French government, while circumstantial, will "more likely than not" meet the threshold to justify extradition. 

He said he was not basing his decision to keep Diab in custody on the basis of the information provided by the French government -- which could eventually could "fall like a house of cards" in a trial -- but noted the burden of proof for extradition is lower. 

French police affidavits claim evidence links Diab, 55, to the purchase of a motor scooter that was used to place the explosives in front of the synagogue. French authorities allege he belonged to a terrorist group backing an independent Palestinian state at the time. 

But Diab's Quebec-based lawyer, Rene Duval, argued it was a case of mistaken identity and said Diab was attending university in Beirut, Lebanon, at the time of the attack. 

Diab has been a part-time sociology lecturer at Carleton University and the University of Ottawa for the last year. 

His wife, Rania Tfaily, is a full-time professor at Carleton University and offered to put up bail and vouch for Diab's release conditions. 

But Charbonneau noted the relationship between Diab and Tfaily, 24 years younger than Diab, was unstable and had only begun in 2006 after Tfaily obtained her position at Carleton University. 

The judge noted Diab moved from Tfaily's Ottawa condominium last year into an apartment sublet in Gatineau, Que., and the pair gave contradictory reasons for the separation as well as the amount of time Diab later spent at Tfaily's residence. 

Charbonneau also said Diab's failure to report the loss of his passport in 1981 for nearly two years "suggests he may have familiarity with forged documents." Part of the French evidence centres on the lost passport, which Italian police found on a man they arrested in 1981. 

A Quebec judge in Gatineau will hear a request Thursday for the transfer to French authorities of evidence and material the RCMP seized from Diab's apartment when he was arrested. France has until Dec. 28 to formally request extradition, and hearings to decide whether he should be sent to France are likely to begin in late January or February. 

The judge hearing the extradition case must be convinced a jury of reasonably informed Canadians could find Diab guilty based on the evidence France has provided.


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## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.    (Link in Title)

Police defuse bombs at Paris department store

*A Paris news agency says an Afghan group has taken responsibility for explosives that were planted in a high-end Paris department store.* 


16/12/2008 7:39:30 AM

CTV.ca News Staff 

Police defused the bombs earlier today after the explosives were found in the rest rooms of the prestigious Printemps Department Store, a favoured shopping spot with tourists. 

The store was evacuated and anti-crime brigades and the bomb squad were called in. French TV later reported that five devices had been located and disarmed. No one was injured during the incident. 

CTV's London Bureau Chief Tom Kennedy told Canada AM that authorities are trying to determine how serious the threat was. 

He said after authorities neutralized the bombs, government officials announced that there were no detonators attached to the devices. 

"We also know there was a phone call that went to Agence France Presse in Paris, (telling AFP) to warn the police that these devices were in the department store. Nevertheless, there is a lot of concern," Kennedy said, speaking from London. 

"The group claiming responsibility is called the Afghan Revolutionary Front. They're calling for the removal from Afghanistan of all French troops by early in the new year." 

Kennedy said little else is known about the group. AFP reported that the group said the bombs were supposed to go off on Wednesday. France has about 3,000 troops in Afghanistan.


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## leroi

By Ian MacLeod, Ottawa Citizen

(Reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)

http://canadianarmedforcesblogger.blogspot.com/2009/02/number-of-homegrown-suspected.html

Number of Homegrown Suspected Terrorists Higher Than Ever: RCMP

OTTAWA, Ontario — Canadians should be concerned but shouldn’t overreact to news that more homegrown extremists and suspected terrorists are believed operating here than ever before, says the RCMP’s top national security officer.

In his first in-depth interview since assuming command of the nascent National Security Criminal Investigations unit, Assistant Commissioner Bob Paulson said more terrorism arrests are expected in coming months.

“The threat we’re facing today is as threatening as it’s ever been,” he said during a hour-long talk in his headquarter’s office this week. “We’re as busy as we’ve ever been and a little busier, frankly,” but he added that the sky is not falling.

“You want Canadians and people who have a role to play to be engaged and you want them to understand the nature of the threat, but you have to balance that against the Chicken Little criticism.

“Even discussing national security investigations publicly and openly runs the risk of being misunderstood of saying, ‘the sky is falling.’ The threat is a significant threat (and) we and other agencies of the government are actively managing that threat.”

He said the increase in national security criminal cases — from 848 last May to an undisclosed but larger number now — is “marginal” and “nothing that people ought to be excessively worried about. That’s what we get paid to do.”

More concerning is the evolving origin of the threat.

“Historically, it’s always been the threat from somewhere else in the world coming over here. But it’s no secret to anyone that a larger part of the threat is the so-called homegrown threat and that’s certainly the lion’s share of the threat that we’re dealing with.”

Homegrown radicalization is now at the top of the government’s national security agenda. Several of the biggest terror attacks and threats in the West in recent years, from the transit attacks in Madrid and London to the foiled “liquid bomb” airline plotters, have come from previously unremarkable, law-abiding citizens largely unknown to authorities.

The official concern is also partly a reflection of concerns about potential blowback from Canada’s involvement in Afghanistan and the terrorism prosecutions of Ottawa’s Momin Khawaja and the pending “Toronto 18” cases.

NSCI has laid charges in two other terrorism cases — the continuing trial of a Quebec man charged with supporting the Global Islamic Media Front, the propaganda arm of al-Qaida, and last year’s arrest of an Ontario man for allegedly collecting money for the outlawed Tamil Tigers, the only person ever charged with terrorist financing in Canada.


The stinging 2006 report and recommendations of the O’Connor Commission into the Maher Arar affair led to a fundamental re-organization of NSCI, with a priority on centralized oversight of national security investigations, including targeting, evidence-based decision-making, information collection and sharing and quality control.

“My desire (is) to re-establish a trust with people,” said the assistant commissioner, whose police career ranges from general patrol duties in British Columbia to senior positions fighting the Hells Angels and organized crime. Now 50, the Lachute, Que., native joined the Mounties in 1986 after a stint as a Canadian Forces pilot.

Since taking over NSCI in May, “I’m very satisfied that we have the business processes and systems that permit me to defend the criticism that we’re loosey-goosey sharing information all the time. The RCMP has pulled out all the stops in terms of implementing O’Connor’s recommendations and there were considerable costs associated to that.”

He also commented on:

• The need for manufacturers of leading-edge communications equipment to “build in a backdoor for authorities who — when properly authorized by the judiciary as we have always had to have been — can get access so that we don’t have to build research and development commensurate with leading state-of-the-art technology.”

In previous cases where judges authorized police to intercept suspects’ electronic communications, “if the gizmo was the latest version, then our tech guys would say, ‘we don’t know where to hook it up.’

“The objectives of justice shouldn’t be defeated by advancements in technology if everybody understands and signs off on the fact that the processes that permit authorizations of the state to eavesdrop or intercept are properly governed.”

• On co-operation with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service: “As good as it’s ever been.”

• On whether he knows why the Americans continue to harbour suspicions of terrorism against Maher Arar. “No.”

• On why there have been no espionage arrests in Canada in recent years, despite repeated statements by CSIS and others that some foreign intelligence services are engaged in aggressive industrial, economic and state-secret spying (and proliferation activities) in Canada:

“Oh yeah, it’s going on. My objective in this program is to bring these cases that come to our attention to resolution through prosecution, that’s my preferred course of action. But there are alternative ways of dealing with some of these threats (such as) disruption, and sometimes we’re forced to do that. You can’t arrest your way out and charge your way out of everything. So sometimes, there’s maybe just confronting people and saying, ‘we’re on to you, cut it out.’ ”

• On the importance of counter-radicalization philosophies and reaching out to Muslim, Sri Lankan, East Indian and other ethnic communities in Canada.

“We are seeing people accepting us, but we continue to face day-to-day-to-day suspicious of our motives. When I was a uniformed police officer, the extent to which I was successful as a criminal investigator was entirely dependent on the contacts I had in the community. And it’s not informants, it’s being able to persuade people that the problems that we face as police are their problems and if people buy in, which they ought to, then you got something.”

But there’s fine line to walk between that and being seen as recruiting sources or spying on the community.

“If the community senses that at all, then it’s ineffective, the trust is gone.”


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## old medic

Partner of accused terrorist to stand by her man
By Jim Brown, THE CANADIAN PRESS
23 March 2009


> OTTAWA — The common-law wife of accused terrorist Hassan Diab says the romantic bloom is off their relationship — but she’s still willing to vouch for his innocence and keep tabs on him if he’s released on bail.
> 
> Rania Tfaily, testifying Monday at an Ontario Superior Court hearing, acknowledged she was “annoyed and upset” to discover last year that Diab was having an affair with another woman.,
> 
> But that doesn’t change the fact that, in her view, he can’t be guilty of a 1980 synagogue bombing that took four lives in Paris.
> 
> “I know his political views,” Tfaily, an assistant professor of demographics at Carleton University, told Justice Robert Maranger. “I know he’s disgusted by mass killing of innocent people.”
> 
> Diab, a Lebanese-born Canadian citizen and part-time instructor in sociology at both Carleton and the University of Ottawa, is seeking release on bail while he awaits an extradition hearing later this year.
> 
> French authorities want to try him in Paris on charges of murder, attempted murder and destruction of property in the synagogue attack nearly three decades ago.
> 
> Tfaily has offered to be Diab’s principal surety, the person responsible for monitoring him and seeing that he abides by any bail conditions.
> 
> “It’s not out of love,” she testified. “He’s a nice man but I’m not in love with him. . . . After some time love wears off.”
> 
> Nevertheless, said Tfaily, she couldn’t live with herself if she let a man she believes to be innocent remain in jail out of jealousy.
> 
> “He’s not charged with marital infidelity,” she said. “This is a criminal case.”
> 
> Crown prosecutors oppose Diab’s release. They say there’s a risk he could flee given the seriousness of the charges he faces in France.
> 
> But defence lawyer Donald Bayne questioned the strength of the French case, saying the evidence offered would never stand up to scrutiny in Canada.
> 
> “This is an extremely weak, criminal case,” said Bayne, arguing that the eyewitness identifications, handwriting analysis and secret intelligence used to buttress the French charges are all suspect.
> 
> Diab has told the court he’s willing to abide by whatever bail conditions are imposed, including the wearing of an electronic monitoring device to ensure he remains in the Ottawa area.
> 
> Crown attorney Suzanne Schriek raised questions about how Tfaily can act as an effective overseer of bail conditions, given the fact that Diab has deceived her in the past about his travels and his relationships with other women.
> 
> She painted him as a man who has engaged in a series of “marriages of convenience” over the years, with extensive contacts in several countries that make him a risk to flee Canada before the extradition can be concluded.


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## leroi

Are We Safe Yet?
Eight Years After 9/11, Canada is Still Far From Secure

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-security-are-we-safe-yet/

The Walrus: April 19, 2009
Daniel Stoffman

(Reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)



> *Imagine, if you will, the following scenario: Terrorists on a small ship approach the Atlantic coast of North America. They’ve got one medium-range missile to carry one small nuclear weapon. As it detonates at high altitude, the bomb triggers a surge of electromagnetic radiation. Voltage spikes fry electrical and electronic equipment. Lights, phones, TV, radio — nothing works. The food in the fridge is rotting. Water stops flowing from taps, because the electrical systems that govern the local reservoir are dead. Dead, too, is the ignition in your car. In the worst-case scenario, we are effectively thrown back to pre-modern times. We have to relearn the survival skills of our ancestors. The hardiest make it, but many don’t.
> 
> An electromagnetic pulse attack is the sort of thing that keeps counterterrorism experts up at night. Depending on the blast’s size and location, such an attack could leave all of North America in primitive conditions. The emp threat typifies the terrorist threat. The chances of it happening are low at any given time. But it could happen, because there are international terrorists with the motivation, brains, and patience to pull it off. Osama bin Laden has said it is his “religious duty” to acquire nuclear weapons to attack the West. And al Qaeda has repeatedly cited Canada as one of its targets.
> 
> In another nuclear nightmare, terrorists detonate a weapon on the ground. On October 11, 2001, a cia agent code named Dragonfire reported that al Qaeda had stolen a ten-kiloton bomb in Russia and successfully smuggled it into New York City. Exploded at noon in midtown Manhattan, the bomb would have killed 500,000 people immediately, and hundreds of thousands more from collapsing buildings, fire, and fallout.
> 
> Dragonfire turned out to be wrong, and the intervening years have seen no major attacks on North American soil. But does that mean we’re safe? Graham Allison, an expert on the threat of nuclear terrorism and director of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, puts the answer this way: “If the US and other governments just keep doing what they are doing today, a nuclear terrorist attack in a major city is more likely than not by 2014.”
> 
> The attacks by al Qaeda on September 11, 2001, killed 2,974 people, including twenty-four Canadians. Since then, authorities in this country have taken several steps to make life harder for terrorists. John Thompson, who heads the Mackenzie Institute, a Toronto-based think tank that studies political instability and organized violence, has a three-part answer to the question of whether or not these measures have made us safer: “Yes, no, and maybe.”
> 
> On the face of it, we should be safer. After 9/11, the federal government rushed the Anti-terrorism Act into law, giving police and intelligence agencies broad new powers, including enhanced use of electronic surveillance and the right to arrest people suspected of planning to commit a terrorist act. As well, Ottawa reorganized its security apparatus: It created the new Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, to improve coordination and information sharing among agencies responsible for national security. It gave the Communications Security Establishment new powers to eavesdrop on private communications. It created the Integrated Threat Assessment Centre. And it launched integrated national security enforcement teams in various parts of Canada, with the aim of disrupting and preventing terrorist activities. There have also been other, more modest improvements. Checked baggage is now screened at Canadian airports, reducing the danger of another Air India disaster. Closed-circuit TV and an increased police presence are helping to protect Canadian transit systems.
> 
> All told, we’re now spending $25 billion a year on national security — a figure that encompasses defence, the rcmp, intelligence services, and air, border, and coastal security. Not included in that estimate is the value of the time spent by air travellers lining up to empty their pockets and take off their shoes at security checkpoints. Slowdowns because of increased security at the US land border are costing individuals and businesses millions more. Then there is the curtailed privacy that comes with counterterrorism. It’s too late to do anything once the suicide bomber has walked through the turnstile of the subway station; you have to find out about his plans before he puts them into action, which means security operatives must snoop and watch and eavesdrop. Citizens of totalitarian countries take such things for granted. Most Canadians don’t, at least not yet.
> 
> Martin Rudner, founding director of the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies at Carleton University, believes the costs of security are worth it. “There is no question in my mind,” he says, “that the reason Canada has been spared a deadly attack since 9/11 is not because the terrorists haven’t tried, but because counterterrorism has succeeded.” To take one example, the strategy of pre-emptive enforcement saw its first visible results last fall, when Canadian prosecutors won their first convictions under the Anti-terrorism Act.
> 
> Neither of the convicted individuals had actually committed an act of terrorism, but both, the courts decided, were helping to prepare for such acts. One of them was only seventeen in 2006, when he was arrested for attending two training camps held by the so-called “Toronto 18” cell. He also stole things for the group, which was allegedly scheming to bomb targets in Ontario and behead Prime Minister Stephen Harper. In another case, an Ottawa software developer was found guilty of conspiring to set off fertilizer bombs in England in 2004.
> 
> In both instances, the threats were from Islamist terrorism, which has become nearly synonymous with terrorism itself. “Islamist,” in this context, means a radical fundamentalist who rejects the concept of a secular, democratic state, and is prepared to use violence to impose a rigid theocratic rule on society. Of course, not all terrorists are Islamic fundamentalists, but non-Islamist terror groups, such as the Tamil Tigers, are obsessed with local struggles. Most pose little threat to Canada, with the major exception thus far being the Sikh separatists who planted bombs on two airplanes departing from Canada on June 22, 1985, killing a total of 331 people.
> 
> Al Qaeda has named Western democracies in general, and Canada in particular, as its enemies. In November 2002, Osama bin Laden warned in a statement broadcast on the Arabic television station Al Jazeera that Canada would be attacked because of its participation in the war in Afghanistan. “What do your governments want from their alliance with America in attacking us in Afghanistan?” he asked. “I mention in particular Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany, and Australia. Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning, and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability, and happiness be your lot? This is unfair. It is time that we get even. You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb.”
> 
> In 2004, an al Qaeda manual named Canada as the terrorists’ fifth most important “Christian” target. The people making these threats, says Rudner, are “well-educated intellectuals. Many of the mujahedeen of al Qaeda are engineers and doctors and other professionals. They mean what they say.”
> 
> One hundred and fifty jihadist plots have been identified in Europe, North America, and Australia since 9/11. Because of counterterrorism, few have been successful, with the notable exceptions of the attacks on the Madrid commuter trains in 2004, and the London transit system in 2005. Some of the failed plots would have had devastating results. In December 2001, a British convert to Islam tried to blow up a transatlantic flight carrying 198 people by igniting explosives in his shoe. In June 2007, terrorists left two car bombs in central London. One of the cars contained sixty litres of gasoline, gas cylinders, and nails. It was parked outside a nightclub, and if detonated would have killed hundreds of people. In February in London, a trial began of eight men charged with conspiring to kill thousands of people in 2006, by blowing up seven transatlantic planes using liquid bombs made from soft drink bottles and batteries. Two of the targets were Air Canada flights destined for Toronto and Montreal.
> 
> The scale of the threat is yet another reason to take it seriously. In 1993, al Qaeda started trying to buy highly enriched uranium in Sudan. And al Qaeda documents seized in Afghanistan gave details of the terror network’s attempts to obtain nuclear materials over several years, until they were expelled from the country after 9/11. “Nothing we know about al Qaeda’s ideology suggests they would have any inhibitions about using such weapons if they could acquire them,” says Wesley Wark, a terrorism expert at the Munk Centre for International Studies at the University of Toronto. “A group with that capacity may simply be undeterrable, both in terms of measures the state would take and any phenomenon of self-deterrence — so, an intent to acquire them and use them, and no restraints. That is why the nightmare is a nightmare.”
> 
> According to Matthew Bunn, co-principal investigator of the Project on Managing the Atom at Harvard’s Belfer Center, the ingredients for nuclear weapons exist in hundreds of buildings in forty countries. Some sites are secure, he says, but others “have little more than a night watchman and a chain-link fence.” Once terrorists obtained nuclear material, it would be easy for them to import it into Canada; only 4 percent of containers arriving at our ports are inspected to determine their contents.
> 
> Another weapon of mass destruction is biological. To grasp the potential of such an attack, consider a war game called Dark Winter that was conducted by the United States just prior to 9/11 to simulate the effects of a smallpox strike. In the exercise, six days after the first identified case, in Oklahoma City, 2,000 people had the disease and 300 were dead. The worst case predicted by the simulation saw three million Americans infected and one million killed. Should this actually happen, hundreds of thousands of Canadians could die, too.*


*

(page 2 on link above)

Edit: Re-format
*


----------



## leroi

Toronto Man Charged With Trying To Export Nuclear Technology To Iran

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/04/17/toronto-rcmp-arrest-nuclear-uranium-trandsducers.html

(Placed here in accordance with the _Fair Dealing _ Provision of the _Copyright Act_.)


CBC News: April 17, 2009

A Toronto man is facing charges of illegally trying to export nuclear technology to Iran, the RCMP said Friday. The charges stem from an alleged attempt to illegally move pressure transducers from Boston to Toronto and onto Dubai, with Iran as the final destination, police said.

"The declared point of destination was Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates. However, we have evidence to support the fact that its ultimate destination was Iran," RCMP Insp. Greg Johnson told a press conference.

The pressure transducers that were seized are used in the uranium enrichment process for weapons-grade products, Johnson said. The transducers have a legitimate commercial use but also can be used for military purposes, the RCMP said.

Police confirmed at least two devices were seized and some of the devices were found when a search warrant was executed in Toronto.

Mahmoud Yadegari, 35, is facing charges under the Customs Act, Export Import Permits Act and the United Nations Act for violating UN sanctions on Iran. Iran insists it is enriching uranium to produce nuclear energy for civilian purposes, but the United States and some European countries accuse Tehran of secretly seeking to build nuclear weapons.

Yadegari, who is a Canadian citizen from Iran, is being held in police custody awaiting a bail hearing in Toronto. Police allege the man took steps to conceal the identification of the transducers so he could export them without required permits.

The charges were made following an eight-week investigation by the RCMP, customs agents, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, police said. The investigation is ongoing, Johnson said.

Johnson declined to comment on whether Yadegari is believed to be a part of a larger network or if other arrests related to the devices are pending.


----------



## lovinmysapper

I would like to comment on Dr Martin Rudner's presentation, I have been fortunate to study under him this man is amazing... Agreed he has been warning Canadians for some time now! 
As he so eloquently puts it " Imagine this a 20 yr business plan,with extremely intelligent officials in charge" "Doctors, Lawyers MBA's Scientists"..."Imagine board rooms occupied with officials conducting audits and PER's" "This is a well organized, exercised business operation  or another word we are familiar with "Terrorists" 

When you look at his presentation take note to the success of every operation that has been conducted in the business plan! they even have Business Continuity Plans !!!!!


THEY WALK AMONG US!!!! enough said!!!


----------



## leroi

lovinmysapper said:
			
		

> I would like to comment on Dr Martin Rudner's presentation, I have been fortunate to study under him this man is amazing... Agreed he has been warning Canadians for some time now!
> As he so eloquently puts it " Imagine this a 20 yr business plan,with extremely intelligent officials in charge" "Doctors, Lawyers MBA's Scientists"..."Imagine board rooms occupied with officials conducting audits and PER's" "This is a well organized, exercised business operation  or another word we are familiar with "Terrorists"
> 
> When you look at his presentation take note to the success of every operation that has been conducted in the business plan! they even have Business Continuity Plans !!!!!
> 
> 
> THEY WALK AMONG US!!!! enough said!!!



Lovinmysapper,

You are fortunate to have studied under him.  I don't move in military circles and live in a world, for the main part, that absolutely doesn't believe Canada has any internal threats! 

Yes, THEY WALK AMONG US ... one of the Toronto 18's (Toronto 11 now?) camps was a 20 minute car ride from where I live.


----------



## George Wallace

Yet another Islamic university student here in Canada, the former VP of the Canadian Arab Federation, mouthing off about Canada and its policies.  If you follow his logic on Native Rights, you wonder how he can overlook the obvious in his argument and stay in Canada.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

Canada a 'genocidal state': former Arab federation VP

By Mary Vallis, National PostJuly 3, 2009

TORONTO — A former vice-president of the Canadian Arab Federation is not backing down after posting "F— Canada Day" on his personal Facebook page.

Omar Shaban, a university student in his early twenties, resigned from the CAF's executive Wednesday after his comments, which also referred to Canada as a "genocidal state," provoked an online backlash. Rather than apologize for his remarks, however, he published an extensive blog post on Thursday defending them.

"I regret the dark history this country has," he wrote. "We are only lying to ourselves if we deny the dark past that Canada was founded on. Canada Day is seen as tragic by its true indigenous population. When Canada Day is celebrated for true freedom and not mourned by the indigenous population of Canada for its colonial and dark past, I will gladly show them my support."

Earlier this week, Shaban posted on Facebook that he "couldn't be more ashamed to be Canadian."

He also wrote, "Might as well kill more natives . . . as a token of support for this genocidal state."

As opposition swelled on Canada Day, the CAF released a statement distancing the organization from Shaban, saying it "is proud of its Canadian identity and heritage" and the comments "in no way reflect of CAF nor its feelings towards Canada."

Mohamed Boudjenane, the CAF's executive director, referred to Shaban's comments as a "stupid faux pas."

"He made a stupid mistake we don't agree with, he resigned and the board accepted his resignation," Boudjenane said. "Omar Shaban is a young activist. . . . Obviously, he holds certain views in respect to first nations' rights and he expressed them on Facebook. That has nothing to do with CAF as an organization, but they will be used against us. We're not surprised."

Shaban's online commentary came at a particularly bad time for the CAF, an umbrella organization that represents 40 Arab groups.

In April, the group lost nearly $2 million in federal funding after its president referred to Jason Kenney, the immigration minister, as a "professional whore" for his support of Israel.

In his blog post, Shaban fired back at the CAF's characterization of his departure.

"I resigned from CAF because I do not want to be part of an organization that openly refuses to acknowledge Canada's colonial and shameful history," he wrote.

======================================================

What a frackin idiot.  What are universities producing?


----------



## George Wallace

This guy really lowers the IQ of his peers:

Mary Vallis, National Post  
Published: Thursday, July 02, 2009


> According to the CAF's website, Mr. Shaban, 22, was born in Canada and raised in Lebanon. He is a third year international relations student at the University of British Columbia.


----------



## lovinmysapper

WOW.... and he is now a Canadian??? we can now refer back to the original title of this 
"They Walk Among Us" 
Please someone tell me why people walk around thinking that we are safe???? after all this is Canada...Peace keeping country....
 sorry a little rant there!   

"They Walk Among Us" Enough Said!!!!!


----------



## Gunnar

> Earlier this week, Shaban posted on Facebook that he "couldn't be more ashamed to be Canadian."



There's a simple expedient for that, if you have the guts.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I'd like to blame this d**chead for his comments, but I can't fail to see that, as a society, a country, we the citizens allow this kind of crap to go on.   Maybe not *you* or *me*, but collectively we are failing ourselves, with our "everything must be PC" ways.

I am getting tired of reading or hearing about XYZ-Canadian groups.  You are Canadian, or you are not, to me.  My ancestors came from Scotland and Ireland;  I've never heard my father refer to himself as a Scottish-Canadian, and be part of a group that gets federal funding (aka taxpayers money, which is partly MY money) and then ridicules the very country they live in and our Canadian ways.

Perhaps Omar Shaban (I refuse to put a Mr. in front of that) would be happier living in some other country.  I, for one, would chip in on his bloody plane ticket.


----------



## FastEddy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Perhaps Omar Shaban (I refuse to put a Mr. in front of that) would be happier living in some other country.  I, for one, would chip in on his bloody plane ticket.




That my Friend is one of the Great Mysteries of Life, why all these persons figure there is so much wrong here and someother place is so much better, why are they still here ?.

But as you so eloquently put, we are getting exactly what we tolerate and justly deserve. And I am sad to say, it gonna get a lot worse !. 

Cheers.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

(chuckling)  gee, doesn't THAT news perk me up!


----------



## leroi

A followup on Hassan Diab who, it appears, has been fired from Carleton University for his connection to terrorism:

Carleton Professors Call for Reinstatement of Colleague Accused of Bombing Paris Synagogue


The Ottawa Citizen (Reproduced in Accordance with the _Fair Dealing_ Provision of the _Copyright __Act_.)
August 1, 2009
Joanne Laucius

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Carleton+professors+call+reinstatement+colleague+accused+bombing+Paris+synagogue/1850749/story.html


Sociology and anthropology professors are demanding that Carleton University reinstate accused terrorist and fellow lecturer Hassan Diab. “The senior administration has a chance to do the right thing. It’s never too late,” said Peter Gose, chairman of the department at the university.

The Lebanese-born Diab, who is now a Canadian citizen, is accused in France of killing four people and injuring dozens more in the 1980 bombing of a Paris synagogue. He faces an extradition hearing in January and is under virtual house arrest, but may leave to work. Diab was teaching a summer course this week when he learned he was terminated.

Gose said university president Roseann Runte had asked for a meeting with the department on Thursday afternoon, two days after Diab was fired. Of the 42 academics permanently employed in the department, 22 showed up for the meeting, including Diab’s common-law wife, Rania Tfaily. But Runte did not appear.

The professors then drafted the resolution, which said the university ignored its own procedures by terminating Diab, unanimously called for his reinstatement and supported Gose and John Osborne, the dean of the department of arts and social science, for assigning teaching duties to Diab.

“We have to say that our relationship is in bad shape,” said Gose. “The department is solidly behind the idea that he should not have been dismissed.” Gose said he also takes issue with the way the course Diab was teaching was assigned to another faculty member without consultation. “That’s not the way it’s supposed to be done. It’s supposed to be done by the department. It’s an area of the university we manage,” said Gose.

Diab must wear an electronic monitoring bracelet, report regularly to the RCMP and can’t own a cellphone. Under his bail conditions, Diab must live with Tfaily in her Ottawa home. He may leave for work and legal and medical appointments, but only if accompanied by Tfaily or one of the four other people who put up $250,000 in combined bail, including Gose. “The judge said he was not an immediate threat to anyone,” said Gose.

Hiring sessional lecturers is subject to elaborate seniority rules under the collective agreement, Gose said. Diab, who has taught about five previous courses in the department, was at the top of the list in terms of suitability and availability to work. Gose said hiring Diab was cleared by Osborne, as well as the associate director of human resources and Carleton’s provost and vice-president academic, Peter Ricketts.

The department’s reaction to the termination of Diab’s teaching contract is the latest chapter of an episode that began Monday when a court proceeding heard that Diab had been hired to teach during the summer. He was fired Tuesday in the wake of criticism, including a statement by the Jewish advocacy group B’nai Brith.

On Wednesday, the Canadian Association of University Teachers, which represents 65,000 academics across the country, said the university had bowed to pressure from outside the university. Gose said that when Runte called for a department meeting, professors were expecting an explanation of administration’s actions.

In a statement on Friday, Carleton spokeswoman Lin Moody said Runte’s meeting with the department was cancelled after the administration received a grievance from Diab’s union, CUPE 4600. “Because the decision is being grieved we will allow the grievance process to unfold as it should and won’t be making any further comments.”

Gose said that although it was not against the collective agreement for senior administration to fail to notify him and the dean about terminating a lecturer, the normal procedure would be to consult them.“We have to get back to the situation where we respect the collective agreement and the rule of law. And the presumption of innocence,” he said. “It’s not about anyone’s politics. It’s about procedure and it’s about respect.”

Gose said he believes administrators are being pressured by organized lobbyists. “They’re on the fifth floor of the Tory building being bombarded by e-mails and not talking to the professoriate or the students,” he said. “We have a large Muslim student population. There are more people to talk to beyond B’nai Brith. We’re a complex multicultural society.”

Gose sees this week’s events as a “continuity” of Israeli anti-apartheid week last February, when a poster depicting an Israeli helicopter bombing a Palestinian child holding a teddy bear was banned from campus, sparking debate about freedom of expression. Frank Dimant, executive vice-president of B’nai Brith Canada, cites the events of the last week at Carleton as indicative of the mood on Canadian campuses. Dimant said he is fighting an uphill battle against a coalition of neo-Nazis, left-wingers and academics.

“It’s appalling university professors would lobby for the reinstatement of a professor who is alleged to have bombed a synagogue. And one asks this question: is it because a synagogue was bombed?” he said. “Can a rational Canadian citizen agree with the notion that their child is taught by a man who is charged with terrorist crimes?”

He added that the B’nai Brith statement was released to the public domain and the organization did not contact the university to press its case. “We will get the Canadian people to be the lobby group that influences the university.”


----------



## gaspasser

One word: deportation.
Born elsewhere, emigrate to here, bash this country to your base beliefs, and not expect backlash?
I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.  As do most of us all.
I am proud to serve my country that took my family in (we immigrated in '69)
People like these make me sick as I wonder at what point to any of us go from being proud and patriotic to racists?  I guess that all depends on your point of view!   
I can guarantee, that if I had done anything terroristic (is that a word) in this country, my butt would be back in the UK!  But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english.  



Sorry.  Too much? 
I AM


----------



## leroi

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> One word: deportation.
> Born elsewhere, emigrate to here, bash this country to your base beliefs, and not expect backlash?
> I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.  As do most of us all.
> I am proud to serve my country that took my family in (we immigrated in '69)
> People like these make me sick as I wonder at what point to any of us go from being proud and patriotic to racists?  I guess that all depends on your point of view!
> I can guarantee, that if I had done anything terroristic (is that a word) in this country, my butt would be back in the UK!  But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english.
> 
> 
> *
> Sorry.  Too much?*  Not at all.
> *I AM *   Me too! :nod:



I'm glad and surprised Carleton U is taking a stand. From what I've observed, universities are often _too_ hesitant to take decisions that have political implications.


----------



## Edward Campbell

This report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, says that the one convicted terrorist would rather not go to jail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/terrorist-makes-plea-for-clemency/article1263637/


> Terrorist makes plea for clemency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “I am not a lunatic hell-bent on destruction” of the West, young man tells court today in Brampton, Ont.
> 
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Brampton, Ont. — Globe and Mail Update Last updated on Tuesday, Aug. 25, 2009 11:22AM EDT
> 
> A convicted Canadian terrorist made a plea for clemency in a Brampton, Ont., court today, urging a judge to forgive his “unspeakable” involvement in a plot to bomb government targets in downtown Toronto.
> 
> “Everyone makes mistakes ... The reason we fall down is so we can learn to get up again,” said Saad Khalid, now 22, reading a judge a statement he prepared for his sentencing hearing.
> 
> The young man added he wanted the court to know “I am not a lunatic hell-bent on destruction” of the West. “I never wanted to hurt anybody," he said, adding he was glad the plot was foiled in a police sting.
> 
> These are the first remarks by any of the accused bomb plotters, who were arrested three years ago, in terms of openly speaking about culpability and the true motivations behind the plot.
> 
> In May, Mr. Khalid became the first suspect to plead guilty to a bomb plot in the so-called 2006 “Toronto 18” conspiracy. The group was allegedly a tight-knit splinter cell from within a larger group of Muslim youth that ran and attended a makeshift winter training camp months earlier. Prosecutors say the motivating principle was armed jihad, as the radical young men understood it, and their hope was to force a withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan.
> 
> To that end a few ringleaders, who cannot be named by court order, allegedly sought to acquire U-haul trucks and tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer to bomb the Toronto Stock Exchange, the Toronto headquarters of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and an unspecified military base.
> 
> Mr. Khalid was not privy to the specific details of the plot, but he was caught in a sting boxing fertilizer at the behest of the alleged mastermind.
> 
> “I'd like to start by first accepting responsibility for my role,” Mr. Khalid said. “I was not motivated by hate for Canada and Canadians.”
> 
> He did say he hated Canada's foreign policy, particularly NATO's participation in the Afghanistan conflict.
> 
> Mr. Khalid said he renounces violence and has a better understanding of Islam, but “I still have strong political views shared by other Muslim youth.”
> 
> He suggested he could counsel them toward more peaceful protest if freed. “I need a second chance and I do not think keeping me in jail would be good for society or me,” he said.
> 
> Sentencing arguments continue today ahead of a planned ruling next month. Mr. Khalid is the second member of the Toronto 18 to be found guilty, with a youth last year convicted of participating in the training camp.
> 
> Nine additional suspects have yet to face trial.



I hope he gets a stiff, exemplary, sentence. A lot of people dislike, even “hate” our foreign policy, many are vehemently opposed to our mission in Afghanistan – one of them (those opposed to the Afghan mission) is a friend of mine. Those people – almost all the ones who are opposed to Canada being in Afghanistan – did not decide to build bombs and kill Canadians. This guy, and his friends, did, and they should pay a high price for that bad decision.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ref the last line of the above quote:

I disagree you little POS;  keeping you in jail is exactly what would be good for society.

As for what is good for you?  *yawn* I've no interest in that.


----------



## FastEddy

[quote 
[/quote]

If anybody believes that crap, please contact me immediately, as I can get you a good deal on the Brooklyn Bridge or your own Ice Berg.

Throw the Book at him, make a example of him, that Canada has a "Zero" policy with any act or form of Terrorism.

Cheers.


----------



## Smity199

Make an example of him and send him to his beloved afghanistan, I as a tax payer would much prefer the cost of a one-way ticket rather than sending this punk to our prison system on our dime..


----------



## Kat Stevens

Smity199 said:
			
		

> Make an example of him and send him to his beloved afghanistan, I as a tax payer would much prefer the cost of a one-way ticket rather than sending this punk to our prison system on our dime..



So he can master his trade?  I'd rather see him in a deep dark hole right here in Canada, until he's too old and leathered to pick up a bag of fertilizer.


----------



## FastEddy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> So he can master his trade?  I'd rather see him in a deep dark hole right here in Canada, until he's too old and leathered to pick up a bag of fertilizer.




Good point "Kat".

Cheers.


----------



## Smity199

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Good point "Kat".
> 
> Cheers.



agreed, although corporal punishment would be ideal for cases like this.


----------



## FlatTax

I thought everyone knew that the cylons looked like humans!


----------



## Smity199

Side note: why do they hold their heads back like that whenever a photo is being taken?
hes just asking for someone to kick him in the chin


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Why do we have to explain this everytime one of these threads shows up?

Hold and voice all the opinions you want, as long as they fall within the realm of what's legally accepted by our society and laws.

Keep the vigilante stuff to yourselves.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## ruckmarch

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.   But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english.



You are having a laugh mate, you call that Scottish chinwag English?  :rofl: Scottish and English don't mix, especially when it comes to football  ;D

Bet you think Alex Ferguson is speaking English in the link below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTZ1v3hjH1M


----------



## Danjanou

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> You are having a laugh mate, you call that Scottish chinwag English?  :rofl: Scottish and English don't mix, especially when it comes to football  ;D
> 
> Bet you think Alex Ferguson is speaking English in the link below?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTZ1v3hjH1M



Careful there ruckmarch. I'm from Scots Irish descent and could see your post as very derogatory and perhaps even racist crack delivered to my ethnic heritage. Very un PC.  8)


----------



## ruckmarch

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Careful there ruckmarch. I'm from Scots Irish descent and could see your post as very derogatory and perhaps even racist crack delivered to my ethnic heritage. Very un PC.  8)



I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please

BYT gets the joke  ;D


----------



## Kirkhill

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please
> 
> BYT gets the joke  ;D



Bleedin' Arsenal.  You want to see tribal violence Danjanou?  Up the Hammers  ;D

Scots-English-Canadian with 5 years in Surrey and a suitably complex dialect.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Bleedin' Arsenal.  You want to see tribal violence Danjanou?  Up the Hammers  ;D
> 
> Scots-English-Canadian with 5 years in Surrey and a suitably complex dialect.



Nah, us Hammers save most of our bile for Millwall fans.  West Ham is the only club to ever win a world cup   ;D


----------



## ruckmarch

Gordon Bennett....flippin Hammers fans  : They are always there to take our rejects, Ian Wright, Paul Merson, freddie Lunberg, Hartson...the list goes on and we still manage to beat them all the time.

How is life in the lower league these days? Had many a drink in the Upton Park pub after games, and then we take the fights onto Green Street  ;D

There is only one Arsenal


----------



## dustinm

To get this thread off of ethnic diversity and hockey, and back on topic (remember we are in "International Situations & World News", not Radio Chatter):

While it might be considered unorthodox, have people convicted of being involved in crimes like these ever been used as consultants? 

For instance, while several of the articles listed in these 4 pages are of foiled plots (i.e. plot to import nuclear technology into Iran), the Parisian bombing suspect probably has some useful information that might prevent an attack in the future (though admittedly his might be less useful as its nearly 20+ years old.)

Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods, as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?


----------



## mariomike

Neo Cortex said:
			
		

> Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods, as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?



I think Kurt Meyer and Albert Speer are two examples.


----------



## Danjanou

ruckmarch said:
			
		

> I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please
> 
> BYT gets the joke  ;D



My aren't we a tad sensitive and defensive lad when someone questions your PCness on here.  8)

Anyway back to the topic at hand, mario I think you'd be stretching it a bit with Panzer Meyer there.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is a report on the sentencing of Saad Khalid:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-18-member-handed-14-year-sentence/article1274654/


> 'Toronto 18' member handed 14-year sentence
> *Thursday's sentencing of confessed terrorist marks first time that any core member of the alleged 'Toronto 18' bomb conspiracy sent to prison*
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Brampton, Ont.
> Thursday, Sep. 03, 2009
> 
> A terrorist bomb-plotter has received a 14-year sentence for his role in a scheme to blow up government targets in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Saad Khalid, 23, who pleaded guilty in the so-called Toronto 18 conspiracy, was credited with seven years for time in pretrial custody. He will spend a maximum of seven more years in prison. He can apply for parole in two years four months.
> 
> Thursday's ruling may bode ill for accused in the case who have yet to face trial. Mr. Justice Bruce Durno said that even taking into account many mitigating factors – Mr. Khalid's youth, sincere regret, guilty plea and non-central role – Canadian courts have an obligation to punish terrorism harshly.
> 
> “ To be even a bit player in a serious and significant plan is a serious and significant infraction ”— Russell Silverstein, Saad Khalid's lawyer
> 
> “Canadian society relies on ballots and not bullets or bombs to change policy,” Judge Durno said in a 48-page decision he read aloud in court.
> 
> “ … Terrorist offences are the most vile form of criminal conduct.”
> 
> Mr. Khalid was close shaven Thursday and wore a black blazer, a tie and jeans to the courtroom, which was packed with his family, journalists, counterterrorism operatives, government lawyers and at least one police agent.
> 
> The young man buried his head in his hands after hearing his sentence, but his lawyer later said his client was actually pleased.
> 
> “He's perfectly happy,” Russell Silverstein said outside court. “ ... It could have been a lot worse.”
> 
> “To be even a bit player in a serious and significant plan is a serious and significant infraction,” he added.
> 
> Statement of facts in Khalid case
> 
> The Crown's blow-by-blow of the Toronto 18 plot, laid out in a statement of uncontested facts filed this summer in the case of R. v. Saad Khalid, solely for the purpose of his trial
> 
> On June 2, 2006, Mr. Khalid was caught in a police sting. Hundreds of police swept across Toronto to round up more than a dozen Muslim youth. Mr. Khalid was caught unloading boxes marked “ammonium nitrate” from the back of a truck.
> 
> He admitted he knew the fertilizer was intended to be used to construct truck bombs to be detonated in the downtown core. He pleaded guilty in May.
> 
> The Crown alleges that only two suspects were privy to the full details of the bomb plot, and that their targets were the Toronto Stock Exchange, the Toronto headquarters of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and an unspecified military base along Highway 401.
> 
> “Saad Khalid was not the prime mover in the plot,” Judge Durno said, describing the young man as an accomplice kept ignorant of the fine points. Even so, the accused “knew serious bodily harm or death were likely” and “was not just a gopher” who unloaded fertilizer.
> 
> Mr. Khalid not only knew the gist of a overarching bomb plot but also bought electrical equipment, rented storage units, and even recruited an accomplice.
> 
> “I acknowledge that I made a huge mistake, and not a day passes by that I am not filled with regret for my role in this despicable crime,” Mr. Khalid told the court during a sentencing hearing last week.
> 
> He described himself as university student from a good home, but said he fell in with more radical Muslims because of a “disagreement on the issue of Canadian foreign policy, specifically Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.”
> 
> Mr. Khalid's Pakistani family raised him in Saudi Arabia, then moved Canada. The death of Mr. Khalid's mother when he was 15 left him “vulnerable” to terrorist recruiters, the judge said. He was a teenager at the time of his arrest.
> 
> Mr. Khalid spent three years in jail, some of it in segregation, before deciding to plead guilty.
> 
> Judge Durno accepted Mr. Khalid's remorse, but only to a point.
> 
> He agreed the young man had truly changed in prison, and that he likely would pose no threat to society upon release.
> 
> Still, terrorist crimes need to be punished severely as “they attack the very fabric of Canada's democratic ideals,” Judge Durno ruled.
> 
> Only a handful of cases have been prosecuted under Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act, a controversial piece of legislation passed by Parliament in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.
> 
> One of Mr. Khalid's co-accused, a teenager who was a peripheral member of the group, has already been found guilty of participating in a terrorist group through attending a training camp.
> 
> Charges against six of the original Toronto 18 suspects were stayed. Cases involving Mr. Khalid's nine co-accused are expected to start by the beginning of next year.
> 
> Publication bans shield the identities of the co-accused.
> 
> A 37-page statement of the Crown's case, uncontested by Mr. Khalid, is posted on globeandmail.com in an edited form to conform with the publication ban.
> 
> The document describes how the bomb-plot suspects were followed, wiretapped and infiltrated by police agents before the 2006 roundup. The document “provides a chilling and terrifying glimpse of what was likely to occur,” Judge Durno ruled.



 Two down ...


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions(§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is some good news:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/another-toronto-18-suspect-pleads-guilty/article1296714/


> Another 'Toronto 18' suspect pleads guilty
> *Man enters guilty plea to one count of participating in a terrorist group; was considered peripheral player in plot that targeted Ont. Landmarks*
> 
> COLIN FREEZE
> 
> Tuesday, Sep. 22, 2009
> 
> Another suspect in Canada's so-called "Toronto 18" terrorism case has pleaded guilty to a terrorism charge.
> 
> Ali Dirie pleaded guilty yesterday to one count of participating in a terrorist group.
> 
> He was considered a peripheral player in a plot that targeted southern Ontario landmarks, a case of homegrown terrorism in Canada that led to 18 arrests and, now, three convictions.
> 
> Now in his mid-20s, Mr. Dirie had been arrested and convicted of a gunrunning charge before the training camp and bomb plot in which other suspects are accused of participating in. He still faces a charge involving smuggling a handgun across the Canada-U.S. border.
> 
> Submissions for his sentencing will be made tomorrow, and Mr. Dirie will be sentenced on Friday, Oct. 2. Crown prosecutor Clyde Bond declined to say what prison term he'd seek.
> 
> Mr. Dirie is the second adult to plead guilty in as many months in the Toronto terrorism conspiracy that sparked the high-profile arrests of young extremists across the city in 2006.
> 
> After a surprise guilty plea last month, confessed bomb-plotter Saad Khalid was sentenced early this month to 14 years in prison after admitting he was part of a scheme to explode truck bombs in downtown Toronto. Mr. Khalid was caught unloading boxes marked "ammonium nitrate" from the back of a truck.
> 
> In handing down a stern ruling - despite mitigating factors such as Mr. Khalid's age, remorse and tangential role - Mr. Justice Bruce Durno said this month that Canadian courts have an obligation to punish terrorism harshly.
> 
> "Canadian society relies on ballots and not bullets or bombs to change policy," he wrote in the 48-page decision read aloud in court on Sept. 3. " ... Terrorist offences are the most vile form of criminal conduct."
> 
> In what was considered the first successful conviction on Canada's 2001 anti-terrorism laws, a youth was found guilty a year ago of attending a makeshift terrorism training camp north of Toronto.
> 
> After the arrest of 18 people in June, 2006, the case had been dubbed the "Toronto 18" conspiracy.
> 
> Seven suspects were let go on peace bonds. Eight adults arrested in the case will face trial in the new year. A publication ban is still in effect in the case of Mr. Dirie, preventing the publication of details that could identify the other accused.



Two down!


----------



## Edward Campbell

And some not so good news, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Ottawa Citizen_:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Judge+dramatically+eases+restrictions+Harkat/2016155/story.html


> Judge dramatically eases restrictions on Harkat
> *Ottawa terror suspect jubilant, vows to clear name*
> 
> By Chris Cobb, The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> September 21, 2009
> 
> OTTAWA-Tears of joy and relief poured down Mohamed Harkat’s cheeks Monday as he heard a Federal Court judge lift the strictest of bail conditions the accused terrorist has been living under since being released from jail three years ago.
> 
> “It’s impossible to overestimate what a significant change this will have on his life,” said Harkat’s lawyer Norm Boxall. “It gives them freedom where previously they had none. He couldn’t go into his backyard without being supervised. You can’t imagine what it’s like to live for years under these kind of restraints and suddenly to be freed from them.”
> 
> The decision, and extent of the government concessions, clearly surprised Harkat, his wife Sophie and the family’s supporters, who packed the courtroom to hear what was expected to be a comparatively routine application by Harkat’s lawyers for an easing of the bail order.
> 
> But government lawyers pre-empted the hearing with the shock announcement to Federal Court Justice Simon Noël that they would not object to the lifting of 24-hour surveillance outside the Harkat home by Canada Border Services agents and nor would they object to the Algerian-born Harkat travelling alone within the borders of the capital region.
> 
> It appears to be a significant retreat by the government in a case conducted largely in secret.
> 
> Prior to Monday’s decision, the former pizza deliveryman had a strict curfew and was not allowed to leave his house unaccompanied. His phone was tapped and he was not allowed to read his own mail without it first being vetted by security agents.
> 
> Surveillance cameras inside and outside the Harkat house also monitored his movements.
> 
> A beaming Harkat left the Supreme Court building, where the Federal Court is housed, to the rousing cheers and applause of his family and friends and emerged into the bright late morning sunshine to say that the ruling came as a huge relief.
> 
> “I feel good,” he said. “This will affect all things. I am always worried about accidentally breaking conditions. There were too many conditions to remember. It was hard to think normal. It was like being on another planet.
> 
> “I still don’t know why I was arrested,” he added. “I want to clear my name. That’s what we’re fighting for.”
> 
> Under Monday’s ruling, Harkat must continue to live with a GPS security ankle bracelet and continues to be barred from using a computer or a cellphone or a landline phone at any location other than his own home.
> 
> He had previously been barred from using any type of telephone.
> 
> The Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) contends that 42-year-old Harkat is an al-Qaeda sleeper agent. The federal government is using the secretive security certificate process in an effort to deport him to his native Algeria.
> 
> Harkat came to Canada and applied for refugee status in 1995 after five years living in Pakistan, where he said he worked as a warehouse manager for the Muslim World League.
> 
> CSIS alleges that he travelled to Afghanistan in the early 1990s and developed a relationship with al-Qaeda lieutenant Abu Zubaydah, who ran two terrorist camps.
> 
> Harkat denies all the allegations and the government has used federal security legislation to keep secret whatever evidence it has.
> 
> Defence lawyer Boxall said Monday that he didn’t know why the government had changed its position on the bail restrictions but speculated it might be rooted in a revelation that a key CSIS source in the case had failed a lie-detector test.
> 
> A top-secret letter made public June 5 showed that CSIS had left Judge Noël with a distorted impression of the informant’s reliability and in a separate letter to the court senior CSIS legal counsel Michael Duffy said the agency’s lack of total honesty was “inexcusable” and “of profound concern to the service.
> 
> “It belies the commitment of the service and its employees to the judicial process,” wrote Duffy.
> 
> The government won’t say why it has changed its position but Boxall said he assumes CSIS has conducted a new risk assessment on Harkat.
> 
> “They have come to the conclusion that Mr. Harkat is not the risk that they thought,” said Boxall, “which is what we’ve always believed. This might suggest that their case is getting weaker but we don’t know.”
> 
> While a radical change for the better, the remaining conditions should also be lifted, added Boxall, because they still make it almost impossible for Harkat to find employment.
> 
> The battery-operated GPS system on Harkat’s right ankle needs charging for two hours a day and requires him to lie motionless during the recharging process.
> 
> “I bet every one of you has a cellphone,” said Boxall during an impromptu news conference. “They are everyday tools. Cells and computers are pretty much part of any employment in 2009. He hasn’t seen a computer screen since 2002.”
> 
> Harkat spent 31⁄2 years in jail after being arrested in December 2002. He was released almost three years ago after agreeing to 18 bail conditions that amounted to ultra-strict house arrest.
> 
> Those conditions allowed the government to raid Harkat’s house without warning, which is what 13 of its security agents, along with Ottawa police officers and sniffer dogs, did last May.
> 
> The controversial six-hour raid came three weeks before a rare public hearing in the case to determine whether the government’s security certificate against Harkat was reasonable.
> 
> That hearing is delayed until January next year because of the raid and because of concerns around CSIS’s handling of the case.
> 
> The agents took dozens of boxes of items from the house and seized Sophie’s computer, which was kept in the basement, an area Harkat is barred from entering.
> 
> The raid and its timing clearly irritated Noël, who amended Harkat’s bail conditions requiring government agents to get the equivalent of a search warrant prior to any other raid.
> 
> Harkat said he is looking forward to his new freedom.
> 
> He said his first act, as a relatively free man, would be to honour a promise to his 10-year-old niece Gabrielle Brunette and take her to dinner.
> 
> Asked where she wanted her uncle to take her, Gabrielle said she didn’t really care.
> 
> “We can go to Home Depot if he wants,” she said, threading her arm through Harkat’s.
> 
> Harkat’s wife, prime surety and former court-ordered chaperone Sophie, was more emphatic.
> 
> “I’m alone tonight,” she laughed, “I’m going to go party.”
> 
> © Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen​




It appears, to me, that CSIS continues to believes that Harkat is a still a threat but the *requirements* of national security and the *requirements* of justice and the law cannot be reconciled. So, I assume he will be kept under more distant surveillance  - until, I guess he makes a mistake and compromises himself or CSIS concludes that he is too far “out of contact” to remain as a threat.


----------



## Greymatters

Neo Cortex said:
			
		

> For instance, while several of the articles listed in these 4 pages are of foiled plots (i.e. plot to import nuclear technology into Iran), the Parisian bombing suspect probably has some useful information that might prevent an attack in the future (though admittedly his might be less useful as its nearly 20+ years old.) *Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods,* as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?



One of those questions that is unlikely to be answered here...


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is a report on another case where the security _restrictions_ on another suspected security risk are removed because, _”court orders for greater and greater disclosure jeopardized the spy agency's sources and methods. So, nearly all of the wiretaps and most of the human sources against Mr. Charkaoui were pulled from the case:”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-lifts-charkaoui-restrictions/article1299943/



 Judge lifts Charkaoui restrictions







*In midst of legal arguments over the end of a security certificate on Charkaoui, the judge makes the sudden ruling from the bench*

Les Perreaux and Colin Freeze

Montreal, Toronto
Thursday, Sep. 24, 2009

Adil Charkaoui, a Moroccan held on a controversial “security certificate” for the past six years, will be a free man by the end of the day.

Federal Court Judge Danièle Tremblay-Lamer said she will issue an order by the end of the day lifting all conditions on the alleged terrorist.

In the midst of legal arguments over the end of a security certificate on Mr. Charkaoui, the judge made the sudden ruling from the bench just before lunch.

“There will be an order all conditions be revoked immediately,” the judge said.

Mr. Charkaoui's lawyer had just blasted the government for “legal acrobatics” trying to drop the case while leaving room for an appeal and keeping conditions on Mr. Charkaoui for the short term.

“It's almost willful blindness, not to see the harm being done. It's abuse, government abuse, it's not something that should be sanctioned by the court,” said his lawyer, Johanne Doyon.

The conditions on Mr. Charkaoui included electronic monitoring, bail and an order he not associate with certain people. He had been jailed from 2003 until 2005 after federal officials branded him an al-Qaeda threat, but was gradually granted increasingly liberty as the case stalled.

The Crown is asking the judge to leave an opening for an appeal later.

The unusual legal gambit followed the Canadian Security Intelligence Service's decision to pull evidence from its case. CSIS, Canada's spy agency, initiates security certificate cases by making recommendations to federal officials.

The security-certificate law allows for CSIS to keep the evidence secret, and present it to judges and ministers in secret hearings. However, several high court judges have ordered greater transparency in recent years – often following legal challenges from Mr. Charkaoui himself.

Crown lawyers argued that while the CSIS case against Mr. Charkaoui remains fundamentally solid, court orders for greater and greater disclosure jeopardized the spy agency's sources and methods. So, nearly all of the wiretaps and most of the human sources against Mr. Charkaoui were pulled from the case.

“The disclosure of this information would be injurious to national security, and compromise the ability to effectively investigate security threats to Canadians,” CSIS spokeswoman Manon Berube said in an e-mailed statement to The Globe. “Among the most important elements of security intelligence collection is human sources. It is imperative that CSIS protect its sources, and guarantee their anonymity.”

Today's developments are another nail in the coffin of security certificates, a controversial tool that Ottawa has relied upon since the Cold War, to kick out foreign spies and alleged terrorists.

This position follows several embarrassing court-ordered revelations, including that CSIS has buried information from dubious sources and repeated evidence from U.S. allies who subjected al-Qaeda suspects to the harsh interrogations.

The security-certificate tool has been used about once a year since it was put on the books in the early 1990s, but no new cases have been launched in three years.

During the past two decades, the law has been used less than 30 times.

Once seen as an efficient means of deporting non-citizens who were branded threats, the future of security certificates are in doubt. It's proven increasingly difficult for Ottawa to deport such suspects given increasing constitutional challenges and the likelihood of foreign torture.

Through the power, federal ministers sign off on a certificate after viewing secret CSIS information, which allows officials to immediately jail, and eventually deport, a non-citizen.

The “intelligence” used to do this is disclosed to judges but never fully revealed to the accused, drawn as it usually is from secret agents and wiretaps, sometimes placed within Canada but also frequently “loaned” from foreign governments on condition that the provenance be kept secret.

As more and more CSIS agents are grudgingly compelled into court, they are digging in their heels against revealing secrets – not just in the handful of active security-certificate cases, but also in trials for terrorism suspects facing jail or extradition Security certificates have long shown diminishing returns for the government, to the point that some officials now talk about the power in the past tense. The five active security certificate cases are legacies of mid-1990s intelligence investigations involving immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa.

Tens of millions dollars annually and dozens of federal officials are consumed by these cases, through constant litigation, ongoing monitoring of detainees, and a special prison built in 2005 that has only one detainee.
		
Click to expand...



Counter-intelligence needs to be done in the shadows; law enforcement needs to finisgh in court.

_


----------



## Edward Campbell

Just in case people think CSIS has no basis to _suspect_ people, this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, tells us that one of the accused _Toronto 18_ *”admitted Wednesday to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist group that planned bloody attacks on Canadian targets:”*



> Accused in terror plot purchased weapons and recruited others, court told
> *In lengthy agreed statement of facts, Crown tells court how Ali Dirie, who pleaded guilty Monday, was close to the alleged co-leader of the so-called Toronto 18*
> 
> BRAMPTON, Ont. — The Canadian Press
> 
> Wednesday, Sep. 23, 2009 03:25PM EDT
> 
> A Toronto man admitted Wednesday to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist group that planned bloody attacks on Canadian targets.
> 
> In a lengthy agreed statement of facts, the Crown told court how Ali Dirie, who pleaded guilty Monday, was close to the alleged co-leader of the so-called Toronto 18 and continued his role in the conspiracy even while incarcerated.
> 
> Mr. Dirie knew the group followed an “extremist interpretation of Islam” and intended to commit terrorist acts, Crown lawyer Clyde Bond told Ontario Superior Court.
> 
> Those acts were for a religious purpose and meant to “intimidate the public,” Mr. Bond said.
> 
> Justice Bruce Durno convicted Mr. Dirie, 26, of one count of taking part in and helping a terrorist group. That makes Mr. Dirie the third person now convicted in the plot to bomb Canadian targets such as RCMP headquarters and nuclear facilities, attack Parliament and take hostages.
> 
> The Crown stayed a second charge of committing an offence for the group – dubbed the Toronto 18 because of the number of people arrested in the summer of 2006 in the anti-terrorism sweep.
> 
> Mr. Dirie faces a maximum of 10 years, with Crown and defence indicating to Justice Durno they would jointly recommend a sentence.
> 
> The only issue, Mr. Bond said, was how much credit Mr. Dirie would get for the time he has already spent behind bars.
> 
> Dressed in a grey hoodie, jeans and head-cap, Mr. Dirie listened quietly to the 28-page account of the evidence against him, rising only to say softly, “Yes, I do,” when asked if he accepted the agreed statement of facts.
> 
> Court heard how Mr. Dirie had been jailed after being caught with loaded weapons at the Canada-U.S. border as he and another man returned from the United States in August 2005.
> 
> Much of the terror-group evidence against Mr. Dirie was based on wiretaps of telephone conversations he had with the alleged co-leader of the conspiracy, who cannot be named under a publication ban.
> 
> Even after his incarceration, Mr. Dirie still considered himself an active member of the group and devoted to the jihadist cause, court heard.
> 
> He continued trying to get guns for himself and others, tried to get false travel documents for himself and other group members, and tried to indoctrinate fellow inmates at Ontario's Collins Bay penitentiary to the extremist cause.
> 
> Court heard how the co-leader attempted to send him a package of books and CDs containing violent videos of attacks and bombings on military personnel and other jihadist propaganda.
> 
> “Dirie was recruiting people . . . to join the jihadist group,” Mr. Bond told court.
> 
> He also encouraged and advised the co-leader in a series of phone calls.
> 
> During the calls, Mr. Dirie actually bragged about the pleasant conditions in jail – including his access to a basketball court, showers and work.
> 
> “This place is luxury, man,” he said during one call, court heard.
> 
> He also decried moderate Muslims and professed his readiness to “take orders” along with his commitment to the extremist cause.
> 
> The two men chatted about “pure girls,” wives, and women – which court heard are all code for guns.
> 
> Mr. Dirie was serving a two-year sentence for the weapons offences at the time two camps were held that police said were in preparation for the attacks. The car he and the other man were in when stopped at the border had been rented using a credit card belonging to the co-leader, court heard.
> 
> Earlier this month, 23-year-old Saad Khalid was handed a 14-year prison sentence for his part in the plot after pleading guilty in May. Nishanthan Yogakrishnan, 21, was found guilty by a judge and convicted last September of participating in, and contributing to, a terrorist group.
> 
> In the summer of 2006, an intense investigation involving Canada's spy agency and the RCMP ended with the arrests of 18 people in the Toronto area and the seizure of apparent bomb-making materials.
> 
> Eight men, including the alleged leaders of the group, are in custody awaiting trial.
> 
> Seven of the 18 people arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed.




Three down!

The *threat*, of attacks - right here in Canada, by home grown terrorists, is real.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is a report suggesting that the _Security Certificates_, which are one of the primary tools available for _restricting_ dangerous people, may be on the way out:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/are-security-certificates-obsolete/article1300775/


> Are security certificates obsolete?
> *Frowned upon by the courts, never taken out the drawer these days by crown attorneys, special tool appears headed for obscurity*
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Friday, Sep. 25, 2009
> 
> Civil-liberties victories in the courts for people jailed under Ottawa's controversial security-certificate legislation have eroded the federal government's ability to jail and deport foreigners deemed dangerous.
> 
> The flip side of the victories for defendants in the security-certificate cases, officials suggest, is that the government is left with fewer and fewer options to remove legitimately dangerous foreigners once they set foot inside Canada's borders.
> 
> No new security-certificate cases have been launched in three years.
> 
> Thursday, Adil Charkaoui left court a free man for the first time in six years after a judge lifted the last of his bail conditions. Ottawa branded Mr. Charkaoui a terrorism suspect in 2003, the last federal attempt to bring a “security-certificate” case against an individual suspected of links to al-Qaeda.
> 
> A couple of years ago, a vexed Canadian spy official neatly framed security officials' frustration in an internal e-mail: What if Osama bin Laden himself materialized in Canada, sitting astride a camel and toting an AK-47?
> 
> The Canadian Security Intelligence Service executive told his colleagues that only one policy response from Ottawa could be guaranteed: No one would dare sign another “security certificate.”
> 
> The quip amounted to an elegy for an extraordinary power that's grown so cumbersome to use it verges on obsolete – even if it was designed as an expedient way to deport foreigners on the grounds of “reasonable suspicion” that they were national security threats without having to reveal why.
> 
> The tool has existed since the Cold War, a time when foreigners in Canada didn't have anywhere near as many rights as citizens. Intelligence officials could bring secret dossiers to politicians that laid out why individuals had to be ousted for the greater good.
> 
> All that was needed to make it so were the signatures of a couple of cabinet ministers.
> 
> “I certainly signed a couple when I was minister,” said Ron Atkey, who handled immigration in the 1979 Joe Clark Progressive Conservative government.
> 
> Ottawa was far less “gun-shy” about cases then, he said. “They were all in camera . And the public didn't really have a right to know,” Mr. Atkey said. “You did it with great fear and trepidation,” he added, “but you did it.”
> 
> During the 1980s, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enshrined, and higher courts ruled in favour of ever greater transparency and legal protections. Foreigners were invested with increasing rights.
> 
> “We never used it,” Reid Morden, a CSIS director in the late 1980s, said in reference to his time at the security agency. He said he saw security certificates as cumbersome and bad fit for the Cold-War espionage threat that was paramount at the time.
> 
> But he didn't mind having the “blunt instrument” handy. “It's always good to have it in the arsenal,” Mr. Morden said. “In the suite of powers, I think it's a useful tool.”
> 
> As the al-Qaeda threat mounted in the 1990s, security certificates returned to vogue. Even if the secret deportation dossiers grew a lot thicker, and the court battles that resulted became more public and protracted.
> 
> The essential unease among cabinet ministers with approving banishment remained.
> 
> Wayne Easter, a Liberal MP who served as solicitor-general from 2002 to 2003, recalls that he once spent three hours poring over a binder of Top Secret information before deciding to approve a certificate.
> 
> While he said he wouldn't reverse any past decisions, Mr. Easter said he'd like to see a system that better weighs security against civil liberties. “There needs to be better balance,” he said.
> 
> Ottawa is struggling to find one. The outcome of the Charkaoui case is seen as a watershed.
> 
> “Our objective is to ensure Canadians are safe from terrorist threats,” Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan said in a statement circulated by his office. “We are examining the impact of the decision on that objective.”




The Charter has expanded the _protection_ from the actions of the crown/government that every person in Canada enjoys. As a classical liberal I applaud everything that protects individuals from collectives. But not every individual, regardless of status. I disagree that e.g. illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay here and appeal, endlessly and I disagree that non-citizens should enjoy full civil rights.

I believe that bad intent, breaking the law, etc deprives one of the *full protection* afforded by the Charter; I also believe that *full protection* ought to be one of the benefits of full Canadian citizenship. Lawfully landed immigrants and visitors ought to have access to some, even most of the Charter’s _protections_, illegal immigrants and improperly documented visitors (e.g. refugee applicants) out to have only their fundamental human rights protected.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Three down! according to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_ web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/another-suspect-in-so-called-toronto-18-pleads-guilty/article1304156/


> Another suspect in so-called ‘Toronto 18' pleads guilty
> *Turn of events marks third such plea in recent weeks ahead of this winter's highly anticipated trial*
> 
> COLIN FREEZE
> 
> BRAMPTON, ONT.
> Monday, Sep. 28, 2009
> 
> Another suspect in the so-called ‘Toronto 18' conspiracy has pleaded guilty in a scheme to blow up government targets in downtown Toronto.
> 
> It is the third such plea in recent weeks ahead of this winter's much anticipated trial, as lawyers seek to sort out the main accused from the peripheral players.
> 
> Saad Gaya, a 21-year old, admitted Monday that he was part of an al-Qaeda-inspired plot to build fertilizer-based truck bombs and explode them in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Specifically, Mr. Gaya pleaded guilty to being part of a conspiracy to be part of a terrorist offence. He was arrested unloading boxes marked “ammonium nitrate” from the back of a truck in June 2006, as hundreds of police swept across the Toronto area to round up a group of young extremists.
> 
> The shipment of three tonnes of fertilizer three years ago was actually an RCMP sting operation, led by one of two police agents who infiltrated the group. (A distinct agent had infiltrated a makeshift training camp months prior to the bomb-conspiracy sting.) A year and a half ago, Mr. Gaya emerged as a cause celebre around the time of one of his bail hearings. He was portrayed at sympathetic rallies, on activist Web sites and in the some press coverage as a Muslim youth who had been arrested on trumped up charges.
> 
> But on Monday Mr. Gaya admitted his role was analogous to that of his friend and co-accused Saad Khalid, who was arrested at the same warehouse and caught unloading the same bags of fertilizer from the back of a truck.
> 
> Mr. Khalid was sentenced to 14 years earlier this month after pleading guilty to his role in the scheme. However, for a variety of factors inherent to Canada's correctional system, it's anticipated he'll spend only two to three more years in jail.
> 
> In pleading out last month, Mr. Khalid said he was a bomb-plot helper, not a mastermind, and that he wasn't privy to specific details of the scheme – including the locations of the alleged targets, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service offices in downtown Toronto, the nearby Toronto Stock Exchange and an unspecified Canadian Forces base along Highway 401.
> 
> Mr. Khalid did, however, say he wanted to blow up targets in downtown Toronto, describing himself as a misguided Muslim who wanted to force Canadian Forces soldiers from the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> In pleading out today, Mr. Gaya may be seeking a similar sentence to Mr. Khalid, who has already completed most of his jail time.
> 
> Mr. Gaya wore a dark suit, beard and glasses as he pleaded guilty in a soft-spoken voice. The gallery was packed with his family, who had championed his innocence for years, but who had nothing to say after the hearing.
> 
> Outside court, Mr. Gaya's lawyer, Paul Slansky said his client will likely get less than 14 years given he was arguably less culpable than his friend, Mr. Khalid.
> 
> “To some extent, he was duped,” said Mr. Slansky, explaining Mr. Gaya was not privy to the mechanics of the bomb plot. He added his client “asked for assurances there would not be harm to people” from ringleaders.
> 
> Other potential mitigating factors, the lawyer said, include that Mr. Gaya expressed remorse to police in a lengthy videotaped interview after he was caught.
> 
> Mr. Slansky also pointed out his client “served over three years in custody and one of them was in isolation” – factors which should eat up most of his penitentiary term.
> 
> Sentencing arguments are scheduled for late December with a verdict on January 6.
> 
> At the front end of a sentence, Canadian courts generally credit prisoners two-for-one for the time they spent in pretrial custody.
> 
> Toward the end of a sentence, the federal correctional system obliges that nearly all prisoners be released at two thirds of their sentence.
> 
> All things told, Canada's correctional laws mean that many, if not most, of the remaining accused in the Toronto 18 conspiracy have already done most of their time should they be found guilty.
> 
> A flurry of defence bids to get the conspiracy charges tossed on technical grounds have failed. But the three-and-a-half years spent in arguments delayed bringing matters to trial, meaning that most accused will see a sizable reduction in their penitentiary terms, if convicted.
> 
> The pretrial custody credits mean that most of the accused will be understood to have served at least the equivalent of seven year sentence by the time matters come to trial this winter.
> 
> Only a handful of accused – particularly those accused of being the bombing masterminds – face life imprisonment. The rest face lesser charges, along the lines of participating in a terrorist scheme or being part of a terrorist group.
> 
> Seven accused in the Toronto 18 conspiracy had their charges stayed or were released on peace bonds. A youth peripheral to the scheme was found guilty and sentenced to time served last year.
> 
> A suspect who smuggled a handgun across the Canada-U.S. border for the group, Ali Dirie, is to be sentenced on Friday. He was already jailed when the core conspiracies were hatched.
> 
> With Mr. Gaya, Mr. Khalid, and Mr. Dirie having pleaded guilty in recent weeks, only seven adult accused are headed to trial at this point. More pleas are possible.
> 
> A publication ban prohibits identifying the co-accused.
> 
> Jury selection is anticipated to start in December.




At the time of the arrests there were suggestions that this was just a bunch of kids with a childish, fantasy scheme. The evidence emerging suggests this was a real threat. That being the case we can, *must* assume that there are more out there – more Canadian Muslims plotting against their country and plotting to kill their fellow citizens at the behest of _foreign_ “powers.”


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act. 


Another 'Toronto 18' member pleads guilty

LINK
28/09/2009 6:34:46 PM

ctvtoronto.ca 
A third member of the terror cell known as the Toronto 18 has pleaded guilty in a plot to hit Canadian targets.


Saad Gaya appeared in a Brampton, Ont. courtroom Monday where he admitted to intending to cause an explosion on behalf of a terrorist organization.

Gaya, 21, was one of 18 people arrested in the summer of 2006 and charged in plot to attack several national targets, including Parliament and RCMP headquarters. The 2006 roundup, known as Project Osage, included the seizure of apparent bomb-making materials.

Outside the courts, Gaya's lawyer Paul Slansky said his client pleaded guilty because it was the right thing to do.

But Slansky added Gaya truly believed there was no plan to hurt anyone and had been "duped" by other members in the group. "Certain people had certain plans that were not communicated to Mr. Gaya and Mr. Gaya will be taking the position that he did not know their plans, he said. "He in fact had asked for assurances that there would not be harm to people." 

The Crown and defence filed an agreed statement of fact as an exhibit. It will be read into the court record during Gaya's sentencing hearing. Arguments will take place from Dec. 21 to 23. The actual sentence will be announced on Jan. 6. 

Gaya has been in custody pending trial since his arrest on June 2, 2006.

Last week, another member of the Toronto 18, 26-year-old Ali Dirie, pleaded guilty to similar charges and was sentenced to a maximum of 10 years in prison. 

Dirie admitted to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist.

Earlier this month, Saad Khalid, 23, was given a 14-year sentence after he pleaded guilty for his role in the plot. 

So far, only one accused in the Toronto 18 terror case has gone to trial. That case resulted in a conviction.

Last September, Nishanthan Yogakrishnan, 21, was found guilty of participating in, and contributing to, a terrorist group.

Although he was 17 years old at the time of the crimes and was tried as a youth, Yogakrishnan received an adult sentence of 2 ½ years. He was released in May after being credited for time served before trail.

Seven others accused members of the Toronto 18, including the alleged ringleaders, remain in custody and are awaiting trial.

Seven of the 18 men and youths arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed.

With a report from CTV Toronto's Austin Delaney and files from The Canadian Press


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is more on the problems confronting our _national security_ team:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/five-terror-suspects-60-million/article1307821/


> Five terror suspects: $60-million
> *Ottawa's controversial security-certificate program to rid Canada of alleged spies came with a multimillion-dollar price tag*
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Thursday, Oct. 01, 2009
> 
> Ottawa has spent $60-million over the past two years in its failed attempts to deport a handful of immigrants accused of having ties with al-Qaeda, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> According to sources, the money has been used to fund legal cases involving five men detained under security certificates – a long-standing program that Ottawa has used in the hopes of ridding the country of suspected terrorists.
> 
> Security-certificate cases have become paralyzed in the courts and polarizing for the public, and are on the verge of becoming obsolete. On Wednesday, a Federal Court judge formally quashed the case against Adil Charkaoui, the Montreal-based Moroccan being detained on a security certificate, after lawyers representing the Canadian Security Intelligence Service said the spy agency could not abide court-ordered disclosures of its secrets. Mr. Charkaoui is contemplating a multimillion-dollar lawsuit for the six years he spent under a federal detention and surveillance regime.
> 
> While public discussion of security certificates has long centred on legal principles, budgetary officials are now conducting a review to determine whether taxpayers are getting value for the money spent on litigation.
> 
> “The Treasury Board Secretariat has required that a comprehensive evaluation be conducted for the Security Certificate Initiative in 2009-2010, in its second year of funding,” reads a Justice Canada letter soliciting feedback from legal insiders this past summer. “The evaluation will focus on assessing the continued relevance and performance of the Security Certificate Initiative which includes the Special Advocates Program.”
> 
> The multimillion-dollar legal bill is being spent on both prosecution and defence, and it is not uncommon for as many as six lawyers on each side to square off in security-certificate cases.
> 
> It's these costs that are being put under a microscope as part of Ottawa's continuing “strategic reviews,” which are examining a host of federal programs. The Treasury Board is trying to assess the security-certificate program through “interviews, surveys and a review of documents and performance data.”
> 
> While the Justice Canada letters circulated to insiders don't affix a price to the program, some who were contacted by the Treasury Board say they were told it was pegged at $60-million over two years.
> 
> Value for money becomes a question given how ineffective security certificates have become. The federal government's legal battle to deport Egyptian Mahmoud Jaballah, is a decade old, having been launched in 1999. Cases against three other al-Qaeda suspects are also continuing, and unlikely to result in deportation because doing so would send them to homelands where they would probably be tortured.
> 
> However, proponents say the security-certificate process would be a bargain at any price, given how the tool was painstakingly created to balance civil liberties with national-security imperatives. Anil Kapoor, part of the “special advocate” class of lawyers recently created to fight these cases, said “the public does win. If any security-certificate procedure prevents one terrorist attack or ensures the release of an innocent person, it will be well worth the price.”
> 
> While the government did contact Mr. Kapoor for his views, he did not disclose the amount of tax dollars that have been spent.
> 
> When the Supreme Court found the security-certificate process was tilted in favour of the state – given how Crown lawyers could advance their arguments in secret, judge-only hearings – Parliament's fix was the creation of the special advocates to go to bat for the detainees in the secret hearings. This has added to the program's bottom line.
> 
> The special advocates don't charge the government exorbitantly – $275 an hour, which is more expensive than Legal Aid, but less than what many could charge in other cases. However, all the special advocates had to be screened for Top Secret clearance, and they often travel to fight their cases.
> 
> Similarly, the Justice Department has had to adjust, by redoubling its prosecutorial efforts. Justice is also compensating federal agencies – CSIS, the RCMP, and Immigration Canada – who are using more money and more personnel in these cases.




This is another “front” in the war against security. The first front was opened by _activists_ like Alexandre (_Sacha_) Trudeau who championed the case of Hassan Almrei. Their implicit assumption was that the bumbling, jack-booted, American influenced security services had to be wrong and any _ethnic_ had to be all right.

Rarely do we hear anyone in the national _commentariat_ suggest that the _Islamists_ and _jihadists *might*_ be trying to infiltrate Canada in order to mount attacks against our country and our people.

I do not know if Almrei and Charkaoui and all the others are guilty or innocent; like 99.99% of Canadians I have no idea about the evidence the government might have; I cannot judge the level of threat. But neither can _Sacha_ Trudeau or any of the journalists. Even the judges cannot “judge” because the issues they are currently, deciding are not about security; they are about the applicability of Canadian law to people in Canada. The *fact* is that every single person “in Canada” – with one foot on the tarmac – is fully protected by all the provisions of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I think that *principle*, which is now enshrined in out law and, indeed, is a Constitutional principle, is wrong and I think it must be changed. Changing it is much, much easier said than done.

The “change” I want is to a _layered_ approach:

•	Canadian citizens, in Canada, must, always have *complete* access to *all* the protections provided in the Charter;

•	Canadian citizens outside Canada can access most provisions of the Charter but it cannot be used to _shield_ them from the full force of the laws in the places in which they reside or where they are visitors: if a Canadian is arrested for trafficking drugs in Singapore (where the punishment _might_ involve capital punishment) that person cannot expect Canada to ride to the rescue, waving a copy of our Charter;

•	Landed immigrants, in Canada, are entitled to many (even most) protections afforded by the Charter but they can be, should be deported whenever they are *convicted* of a crime (most crimes? just some crimes?);

•	Legal visitors to Canada, including those “admitted to Canada” and awaiting an _upgrade_ in their status to e.g. landed immigrant have fewer protections. They may, for example, be deported on some (national security related) _suspicions_; and, finally

•	Those who are either _illegals_ or those who have yet to clear immigration have NO protection at all, not even when they blurt out a refugee claim. 

This is something akin to what Australia has now. We are not likely to get there. It would involve invoking the “notwithstanding” clause, probably over and over again, in the face of a veritable firestorm of outrage and protest – including some real Molotov cocktails tossed at government buildings – and a barrage of legal and political challenges. It is not clear to me that any living politician has the wherewithal to even try it here in Canada. That being the case, our defences are weak; we are vulnerable.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act. 


'Toronto 18' terrorist member handed 2 more years



LINK

03/10/2009 12:26:56 PM

CTV.ca News Staff 
*A Toronto-area man who plotted to bomb RCMP headquarters and Parliament will have to serve another two years in jail, a court ruled Friday.*


Ali Dirie, a member of the so-called Toronto 18 terror group, was handed the equivalent of a seven-year sentence for his part in the 2006 plot.

But because the 26-year-old has already served time behind bars, he will only serve another two years before being released.

"His moral culpability is high," said Ontario Superior Court Justice Bruce Durno in handing down the sentence.

Durno noted that because Dirie worked with the group over a relatively lengthy period, "his degree of responsibility is also high because of the duration of his involvement."

During sentencing arguments, lawyers argued over the fact that Dirie had served time in isolation before his trial.

But the judge rejected an appeal to give Dirie three to one pre-trial credit for time he served in isolation. The judge said that Dirie was placed in solitary confinement because of his own actions while in custody.

"It was his own misconduct that contributed in part to his placement in segregation," said the judge, who noted that Dirie was also "an unlikely candidate for parole."

Dirie, the fourth member of the group to be convicted, pleaded guilty to charges that he helped the group get guns and travel documents.

His defence lawyer said his client was very sorry about the offence, adding that much of his motivation stemmed from anger over Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.

But now, Dirie knows that violence isn't the answer.

"He realized that the means didn't advance his belief but in fact, if anything, retarded it," Nuttall said outside court.

"He profoundly regrets the means."


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act. 


Quebec man guilty in Austrian-German bomb plot

LINK


01/10/2009 12:51:13 PM

CBC News 
*A Quebec man has been found guilty of being involved in an international terror plot threatening European countries involved in military operations in Afghanistan.* 


Saïd Namouh was convicted on four terrorism-related charges, including conspiracy to detonate an explosive device, participating in a terrorist act, facilitating such an act and committing extortion for a terrorist group.

After the verdict was rendered, Namouh's attorney René Duval said he did his best for his client, but isn't sure he will appeal. 

Quebec Court Judge Claude Leblond "is a very good jurist, so when you read his decision, there's nothing at first sight would stand up as an egregious error," Duval told reporters at the Montreal courthouse.

Namouh, 36, was accused of participating in a plot to force the Austrian and German governments to withdraw their troops from Afghanistan.

During his three-week trial, the court was told Namouh was an active member of the Global Islamic Media Front, considered to be a media tool of al-Qaeda and involved in jihad recruitment.

Crown prosecutor Dominique Dudemaine presented evidence that Namouh posted terrorist propaganda on the internet, on behalf of the front.

Dudemaine argued that Namouh spent hours creating and distributing propaganda videos, including images of the deaths of Western soldiers and suicide bombings.

Cybercrime investigators extracted videos, including how-to guides for detonating suicide bombs and encrypting emails, from his computer. They also found thousands of pages of transcripts of Namouh's posts suggesting he was very active in chat rooms, message boards and jihad forums.

Namouh was also accused of publishing a video of BBC journalist Alan Johnston, who was kidnapped in Gaza in 2007 by the Army of Islam, a Global Islamic Media Front affiliate.

Leblond said Namouh also prepared ransom demands on behalf of the Army of Islam.

The judge reminded the court that the Islamic front is a terrorist organization in the eyes of the Canadian law.

There is no evidence Namouh was planning an attack on Canadian soil.

Namouh, a Moroccan immigrant and permanent resident in Canada, was arrested in September 2007 in Maskinongé, Que., in 2007, following a lengthy investigation by RCMP and Austrian authorities. He is married to a Quebec woman and has lived in the province since 2003.

Namouh faces life in prison. He is scheduled to return to court in November.

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is an example of why our courts of law are the wrong place to _manage_ security _threats_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-member-of-khadr-clan-testifies-today/article1311844/


> First member of Khadr clan testifies today
> *The U.S. is seeking to extradite Canadian citizen Abdullah Khadr on a warrant alleging he sold arms to al-Qaeda while living in Pakistan*
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Monday, Oct. 05, 2009
> 
> A member of Canada's infamous Khadr clan will take the witness stand in Toronto today as his extradition hearing begins and in doing so, he will become the first member of the so-called al-Qaeda Family to testify in his own defence.
> 
> When Abdullah Khadr, 28, tells his story, the Canadian counterterrorism agents in the Ontario Superior Court will be reminded of a simple maxim: It's not the information you get, it's how you get it.
> 
> The Canadian citizen, whom the U.S. is seeking to extradite on a warrant alleging he sold arms to al-Qaeda while living in Pakistan, was held in a secret safe house in Pakistan and endured multiple interrogations at the hands of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and its allies, including CSIS and the RCMP.
> 
> His defence contends that any statements made during and since these interrogations by Mr. Khadr are tainted because he claims he was tortured by the Pakistanis and threatened by the Americans.
> 
> Ultimately, the judge will decide how to square Mr. Khadr's alleged admissions with such legal principles as the right to remain silent and the right to counsel, in determining whether any of his statements ought to count at all.
> 
> The Khadrs, a family of Canadian-citizen siblings that includes Omar Khadr who is being held in Guantanamo Bay, were raised in Afghanistan by a fanatical Egyptian-Canadian father. Now, nearly 15 years after this man - known simply as "the Canadian" to his al-Qaeda cohorts - beat suspicions he was linked to a deadly bombing in Pakistan, it's his son Abdullah Khadr who stands accused of selling to al-Qaeda figures in Afghanistan $20,000 worth of certain bomb chemicals as well as projectiles for Kalashnikov assault rifles and mortars that he had allegedly acquired in Pakistan.
> 
> Acknowledged friends of Osama bin Laden, the Khadrs fled Afghanistan for Pakistan after the 2001 U.S. invasion, though family members were soon picked up on both sides of the border. Two years after the exodus of the "Arab Afghans," the fugitive Abdullah Khadr was arrested in Pakistan - but only after, court records show, the U.S. government paid a $500,000 bounty to the Islamabad military dictatorship that existed at the time.
> 
> Top-ranking al-Qaeda members are worth millions, but Mr. Khadr was regarded as a catch in his own right. He was sent to a secret intelligence safe house, run by the host agency, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, and agents from the CIA, FBI, CSIS and the RCMP came calling.
> 
> The core allegations were amassed after a series of lawyer-less interviews in a legal limbo. When federal agents asked Mr. Khadr if he was part of al-Qaeda, he replied, "No, I only buy and sell weapons for al-Qaeda," according to a court-filed transcript.
> 
> He is even said to have explained how his father sent him to a terrorist training-camp at age 14, and that he "knows everyone" in the al-Qaeda hierarchy.
> 
> Mr. Khadr returned to Canada following the year he spent in the ISI safe house. ("I was never in al-Qaeda" he said in an interview at the time.)
> 
> Yet just a couple of weeks after he came back, Mounties he had gotten to know and trust arranged to meet him at a McDonald's in Scarborough.
> 
> At that meeting, the RCMP arrested him on a U.S. warrant. That was in 2005, and Mr. Khadr has been held in a Toronto jail ever since.
> 
> The Mounties will tell their side of the story during the extradition hearings too, including how they travelled to Pakistan to conduct interviews, but never laid charges under Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act. Part of the issue might have been that Mr. Khadr arrived at the RCMP interviews with an opaque hood over his head, according to court documents, and that the Pakistani ISI told the RCMP no lawyers would be allowed.
> 
> It's also anticipated that agents of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service will testify at the hearings, but hooded themselves, in a sense. This rare bit of testimony from CSIS will take place from behind screens, to shield the agents' identities. (In a pre-arrest interview Mr. Khadr said he knew them only as Mike and Bob.)
> 
> The CIA, often an unseen hand behind interrogations of Canadian al-Qaeda suspects detained abroad, is expected once again to be a no-show.
> 
> *****
> 
> Family tree
> Key members of the Khadr family include:
> 
> *AHMED SAID KHADR (Father):*
> 
> Born in Egypt, the engineer became a Canadian citizen in the 1970s. He went to Afghanistan in the 1980s to take part in resistance to the Soviet occupation. During the 1990s, he moved his Canadian-born children there and he was briefly held on suspicion of a bombing in Pakistan. Close to Osama bin Laden, Mr. Khadr was heralded as a "martyr" by al-Qaeda figures after he was killed in a battle with the Pakistan army in 2003.
> 
> *ABDULLAH KHADR (Eldest son):*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Abdullah Khadr leaves his Toronto attorney's office with his mother Maha El Samnah(left) after speaking with the media on Thursday December 8th, 2005.
> [size=8pt]The Globe and Mail
> 
> Abdullah was put into a training camp at age 14, and he was allegedly directed by his father to get guns and missiles to Arab fighters in Logar, Afghanistan, in 2003. Arrested the following year in Pakistan on a $500,000 (U.S.) bounty, he was held in a secret safe house for a year, where Canadian and U.S. agents grilled him. He goes on trial in Toronto today on a U.S. bid to extradite him as an al-Qaeda gunrunner.
> 
> *ABDURAHMAN KHADR (Son):*
> 
> This self-described "black sheep of an al-Qaeda family" became a CIA mole after his 2001 capture. The U.S. agency installed him, he says, in Afghan prisons, at Guantanamo Bay and in Bosnia to get a handle on what Islamist militants were thinking and doing. He has lived freely in Toronto for years.
> 
> *OMAR KHADR (Son):*
> 
> After an al-Qaeda insurgent in Afghanistan pleaded with Ahmed Said Khadr for a translator, the then-teenager was sent to the front lines. Captured in 2002 at the age of 15, following a deadly battle, he was charged with murder in the killing of a U.S. soldier after allegedly launching a grenade. The Stephen Harper government is ignoring judicial orders to lobby for the repatriation of the Canadian citizen, now held for years in Guantanamo Bay.
> 
> _Compiled by Colin Freeze_




The judge will, I hope ignore *what* Khadr said and *what* he may have been planning to do – none of that matters. The judge must *defend* Mr. Khadr against the massive, invasive powers of the state. The state must always be judged to be a threat to individual liberty and liberty ought to trump security. Law courts, not armies, are the *primary* defenders of  liberty. Soldiers, the _second line of defence_, ought to be proponents of the *rights* of the accused, even when those *rights* allow an obviously guilty person to walk free, because _defending Canada, which involves defending *liberty*_, is why we you are here and _over there_. What is Canada, after all, if it is not a place where *liberty* thrives?

I expect the judge to administer yet another *blast* to the Government of Canada’s loyal and hard working _servants_ – the people who are doing their level best to get and keep _suspected_ enemies off out streets and are foiling many and varied nefarious plots.

So, why come to a court of law, at all? Because there is no useful alternative, right now.

The big job was accomplished: whatever Khadr planned to do – and I, for one, am certain that he was up to no good because I trust our security services to get _most_ things right _most_ of the time – he was stopped. CSIS and/or the RCMP did their duty. There needs to be a _legal_ way, which our civil and criminal law will not and, arguably, should not provide, to monitor him and prevent him from doing anything else wrong.

Sending our security and intelligence services into our law courts is not accomplishing the aim.


----------



## Edward Campbell

And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is a suggestion re: how to protect our security without stretching our legal principles too far:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/how-to-design-a-better-anti-terrorism-tool/article1310404/


> How to design a better anti-terrorism tool
> *With the security certificate system defunct, we need to focus more on our criminal law system*
> 
> Craig Forcese
> 
> Monday, Oct. 05, 2009
> 
> The security certificate system as a tool of anti-terrorism is dead. Last week, the government abandoned its case against Adil Charkaoui, supposedly as a lesser evil to disclosing information it says would jeopardize national security.
> 
> Four other cases continue, and the government could “win” a few in the short-term. But even if the government demonstrates a reasonable basis for its allegations, the saga will continue – security certificates are supposed to be about deportation. And that prospect seems vanishingly remote because of the risk that the four remaining individuals will be tortured if deported. All of this means the government will inevitably need a “Plan B” for the future.
> 
> So what now? Faced with similar dilemmas in designing law as a tool of anti-terrorism, other states have done two things of note. First, they have used the criminal law with greater vigour than Canada. Second, some have tinkered with conventional legal standards to authorize constraints on liberty outside of criminal prosecutions.
> 
> *Back to basics: criminal law*
> 
> The first strategy is, relatively speaking, uncontroversial. There are, of course, difficult challenges. The question of national security confidentiality is ripe in criminal cases, as much as it has been in Canada's security certificate cases.
> 
> In a criminal matter, where national security confidentiality and a fair trial cannot be reconciled, the government may be forced to elect for disclosure over security, or see its case fail. But this is a difficult balance best established in a criminal trial, rather than in a security certificate system that cannot accomplish its stated goals of removal from Canada anyway.
> 
> It is notable that Canada's criminal law reaches far enough now in penalizing terrorism-related activity. New offences pepper the statute books since their post-9/11 reorganization. They could capture much – if not all – of the actions apparently at issue in the security certificate cases, although they could not apply to the actual individuals in question because their alleged conduct predates the new crimes.
> 
> Focusing on criminal law would also prompt a necessary cast change. Canada's security intelligence service – CSIS – has been involved in security certificates for a long time. It has, however, little experience with a process in which the accused person actively contests government claims, aided by highly experienced “special advocates.” The experience has clearly pained CSIS, and the agency's reputation has been deeply tarnished by its failures to apprise judges of weaknesses in its cases.
> 
> CSIS has likely learned a lot and with procedural rules now more clearly established, one would expect an improved performance in the future. But why convert CSIS into an agency that does courtroom evidence well? Such a conversion risks detracting from the different role CSIS is supposed to serve – providing intelligence to guide actions by government. For all its own troubles, the RCMP is a police force that lives daily with courts. Shifting the focus of anti-terrorism efforts to criminal law would give investigative primacy to the RCMP, and place CSIS in a supporting role. That is how it should be when an accused person's liberty is at stake.
> 
> *Special detention regimes*
> 
> In designing a Plan B, the government might be tempted to emulate Britain and Australia. There, so-called “control orders” and prolonged detention without charge allow governments to react quickly on information insufficient to sustain a criminal conviction.
> 
> Certainly, the government may need to act pre-emptively, in an effort to disrupt nascent terrorist threats. It is indisputable, however, that the terrorism crimes in Canada's post-9/11 statute book allow much more pre-emptive action than was the case beforehand. One crosses the line of a criminal offence very early in the preparation of an actual act of terrorist violence. The so-called “Toronto 18” cases are partial evidence of that fact.
> 
> Moreover, Parliament will eventually re-enact the expired “preventive detention” provisions of the anti-terrorism criminal law, allowing short-term detention prior to the imposition of so-called “peace bonds.” While it has its own shortcomings, this system is to be preferred over its British and Australian counterparts. Not least, Canadian proceedings would be in presumptively open courts, not closed-door hearings.
> 
> There is no doubt that the liberty of more people could be more readily limited if Canada followed Britain. But it is difficult to argue that the absence of a British-style system in Canada truly puts public safety in peril. There is also the small matter that a free society cannot eliminate all risks and still be free. The architects of Plan B must be governed by this truth. It is time to give the criminal law a fair shake.
> 
> _Craig Forcese teaches national security law at the University of Ottawa's law school._




I *do not agree* with  Prof. Forcese but my grounds for disagreeing are weak. I do prefer with Australian/British model – even though it lets security trump liberty – which puts me at odds with my own values. That being admitted, maybe Forcese’s *Plan B* is a better way.


----------



## Kirkhill

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is an example of why our courts of law are the wrong place to _manage_ security _threats_:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-member-of-khadr-clan-testifies-today/article1311844/
> 
> The judge will, I hope ignore *what* Khadr said and *what* he may have been planning to do – none of that matters. The judge must *defend* Mr. Khadr against the massive, invasive powers of the state. The state must always be judged to be a threat to individual liberty and liberty ought to trump security. Law courts, not armies, are the *primary* defenders of  liberty. Soldiers, the _second line of defence_, ought to be proponents of the *rights* of the accused, even when those *rights* allow an obviously guilty person to walk free, because _defending Canada, which involves defending *liberty*_, is why we you are here and _over there_. What is Canada, after all, if it is not a place where *liberty* thrives?
> 
> I expect the judge to administer yet another *blast* to the Government of Canada’s loyal and hard working _servants_ – the people who are doing their level best to get and keep _suspected_ enemies off out streets and are foiling many and varied nefarious plots.
> 
> So, why come to a court of law, at all? Because there is no useful alternative, right now.
> 
> The big job was accomplished: whatever Khadr planned to do – and I, for one, am certain that he was up to no good because I trust our security services to get _most_ things right _most_ of the time – he was stopped. CSIS and/or the RCMP did their duty. There needs to be a _legal_ way, which our civil and criminal law will not and, arguably, should not provide, to monitor him and prevent him from doing anything else wrong.
> 
> Sending our security and intelligence services into our law courts is not accomplishing the aim.



It seems to me that there is room to go backwards here, again.

In the 18th century, when private citizens operated as armed agents of their governments under letters of marque it was possible for that citizen, when captured to offer his "parole", his word, that he wouldn't continue his activiities if he was released.  This presupposed a man of honour.

Having said that, it is the closest that I can think  of that would apply to the Al Qaeda pre-Congress of Vienna mindset.

The procedure could only be that an individual captured on a battlefield under arms would first of all be given the assumption of innocence, in so far as he would be assumed to be a soldier until proven otherwise.  As a soldier he would be granted the privileges of the captured soldier - which is to say indefinite detention for the duration of hostilities.  UNLESS - he was prepared to offer his parole in which case he would be assumed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to be a man of his word.

Then if he were picked up again on the battlefield, demonstrably having broken his word then he could be charged and treated as a common criminal.

This allows our enemies two kicks... the first one on us.

But it conforms to the maxim: Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There is some good news on the counter-terrorism front according to this report, reproduced under the fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_ web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/spy-services-granted-new-power/article1313804/


> Spy services granted new power
> *Federal Court decision paves way for the international surveillance of Canadian citizens suspected of terrorism links*
> 
> Colin Freeze
> 
> Toronto
> Tuesday, Oct. 06, 2009 01:27PM EDT
> 
> Canada's spy services have a new power: the ability to listen in on “homegrown” Canadian suspects travelling abroad to terrorism hot-spots such as Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
> 
> In a Federal Court decision released today, Mr. Justice Richard Mosley decided the court can sign off on domestic warrants that allow for the international surveillance of Canadian citizens suspected of links to terrorism.
> 
> These warrants would be used for intelligence gathering, not necessarily for criminal prosecutions in open court.
> 
> The application came as Canadian spies sought “urgent” permission in January to follow two unidentified Canadians, presumably terrorism suspects, travelling to an unidentified country from Canada. These travels “pertained to threat activities which, it was believed, the two individuals would engage in while travelling outside of Canada,” reads today's ruling.
> 
> “Individuals who pose a threat to the security of Canada may move easily and rapidly from one country to another and maintain lines of communication with others of like mind,” Judge Mosley said. “Information which may be crucial to prevent or disrupt the threats may be unavailable to the security agencies of this country if they lack the means to follow those lines of communication.”
> 
> Federal spy masters had been seeking the authority for years, amid complaints that Canada's Cold War-era laws failed to address the threat of alleged Canadian terrorists who travel outside the country.
> 
> The specific problem? The Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the country's “human intelligence” spies, can get wiretaps only for use in Canada if a judge signs off on a warrant. The Communications Security Establishment, the country's secretive “signals intelligence” agency, has the technological ability to listen to anyone it wants, anywhere in the world, but it is legally banned from spying within Canada or on Canadian citizens, wherever they may be.
> 
> It was illegal for Canada's spies to listen in on Canadian terrorism suspects the moment they left the country. This left intelligence officials complaining their investigations could suddenly go dark.
> 
> In the past, bureaucrats and judges had difficulty with the CSIS argument that it should be allowed to deputize the international powers of the CSE to advance domestic investigations. Judges maintained they enforced Canadian laws and had no power to sign off on arguably illegal or “extra legal” spying in other countries.
> 
> Judge Mosley has authored a compromise: He and his colleagues will sign off on such warrants provided the “international” spying actually takes place within Canada.
> 
> This essentially means the CSE can listen in on international conversations involving Canadian suspects via satellite signals and data lines that can be intercepted from Canada. From there, powerful algorithms and search engines can seek to isolate the “Canadian” conversations.
> 
> "It recognizes that security threats are global and highly mobile. CSIS can now use this tool to defend Canada's security," said Manon Berube, a spokeswoman for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
> 
> "In our view this decision recognizes that security threats move easily from one country to another and that countering those threats required a new approach."
> 
> Two things are striking about Judge Mosley’s 41-page ruling.
> 
> One is the absolute haste with which spies felt compelled to act. They had been snooping on their targets for two months when the two Canadians boarded an outbound plane for parts unknown.
> 
> “Given the urgency of the situation laid before me … I determined it would be inappropriate to delay the issuance of the warrant,” Judge Mosley wrote. The ruling does not make clear what, if anything, happened to the suspects after they went overseas nine months ago.
> 
> It’s not clear whether the suspects ever returned to Canada. If CSIS feels strongly enough about a terrorism case, the spy agency can hand over files to police in hopes that they can put together a criminal case, but there have been no significant terrorism arrests in Canada the intervening period.
> 
> The second striking aspect to the ruling is that it blacks out any allusions to the CSE’s spy craft, even though the basic principals under which electronic eavesdropping agencies intercept phone calls, e-mails, and internet chats are well known, at least in general. This is surprising, given Judge Mosley has ordered disclosures of arguable state secrets in past rulings. It’s matter of common practise to sanitize any information that would tend to identify suspects who haven’t been arrested.
> 
> A number of recent Canadian prosecutions have brought the issue of homegrown terrorism to the fore, but this may be the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> There are growing concerns that young Canadian extremists are flocking to global hot spots. For example, the U.S. Congress has heard recent testimony that Canadians are among the Westerners flocking to an Islamist insurgency movement in Somalia known as “the Shabab.” A few years ago a young Canadian university student was arrested in Afghanistan and accused of helping insurgents there.
> 
> There were also unconfirmed reports from Pakistan's tribal areas that Canadian citizens were among the militants killed in a U.S drone strike.




If I understand this ruling then it is, indeed, a big step forwards and it is long overdue.

There should be, in my view no need to ever bring this sort of information into open court: spies and terrorists ought not to be arrested, charged and tried in our courts unless they are of the “homegrown” variety, and perhaps not even then; there needs to be a better way.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Canadian judges are being appropriately cautious according to this news story, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_ web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-says-no-to-terror-suspects-bid-for-cellphone-access/article1315331/


> Judge says no to terror suspect's bid for cellphone access
> *A federal judge has denied a request from terror suspect Mohamed Harkat to further loosen his bail conditions - with one exception*
> 
> Ottawa
> The Canadian Press
> 
> Wednesday, Oct. 07, 2009
> 
> A federal judge has denied a request from terror suspect Mohamed Harkat to further loosen his bail conditions – with one exception.
> 
> Mr. Harkat will be allowed to travel outside the national capital region to places in Ontario and Quebec if details can be worked out with federal officials.
> 
> In a ruling released today, Justice Simon Noel said it was too early to consider Mr. Harkat's other demands, given that the substance of his case has yet to be heard.
> 
> Among other things, Mr. Harkat requested removal of the electronic monitoring bracelet on his ankle, permission to have a cell phone and more freedom to use a computer.
> 
> The Canadian Security Intelligence Service alleges Mr. Harkat is involved with the al-Qaeda terror network – a claim he denies.
> 
> Last month the court did ease bail conditions considerably, meaning no more surveillance cameras in Mr. Harkat's Ottawa home, no need to approve visitors and no further interception of mail and phone calls.
> 
> The government has been trying to deport the Algerian-born Mr. Harkat using a national security certificate, a rarely employed immigration tool, since his December 2002 arrest.
> 
> He and four other men face removal from Canada under certificates. All are fighting to remain in the country.




This is modestly good news.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is a report that one of the potentially key witnesses is playing fast and loose skirthing the edge of law and duty in an effort to get “evidence” (or just rumour) in front of the MPCC:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/diplomat-bucks-ottawa-by-sending-evidence-to-detainee-probe/article1315612/


> Diplomat bucks Ottawa by sending evidence to detainee probe
> *Military watchdog adjourns hearing into treatment of Afghan detainees after government lawyers question scope of investigation*
> 
> Steven Chase
> 
> Ottawa
> 
> Wednesday, Oct. 07, 2009
> 
> A Canadian diplomat yesterday resisted federal government attempts to stop him from testifying before an inquiry into Canada's Afghan detainee controversy, filing evidence with the probe to prove he's got vital information to impart.
> 
> But in an unusual move, Richard Colvin shipped his affidavit to the Military Police Complaints Commission probe in a sealed envelope – a statement that will remain unread by inquiry officials until government censors vet it.
> 
> Mr. Colvin, who was previously posted in Afghanistan for Ottawa, sent his statement to the inquiry under virtual lock and key in order to guard against the risk of being jailed for violating national secrets.
> 
> The dramatic presentation of evidence came the same day that more legal jousting erupted between the Harper government and the commission, another bout of wrangling that could end up further delaying long-postponed hearings.
> 
> The military police watchdog has been trying to probe whether Canadian soldiers were complicit in handing over Afghan prisoners to that country's intelligence service – because they knew, or should have known, detainees were likely to be tortured in Afghanistan's notorious jails.
> 
> But government lawyers have repeatedly sought to delay and thwart public hearings.
> 
> Yesterday commission chair Peter Tinsley announced the tribunal will appeal a September federal court ruling that severely restricted the scope of the Afghan inquiry. It was a judgment that agreed with Ottawa's arguments that the watchdog had originally overstepped its boundaries.
> 
> Responding to Mr. Tinsley, Justice Department lawyers argued a motion calling for a suspension of the hearings until courts settle the question of the scope of the inquiry.
> 
> Alain Prefontaine, the lead government lawyer, said such an adjournment could mean a two-month delay in hearings.
> 
> And if that happens, it would mean the public portion of the inquiry would not resume before Mr. Tinsley, a Liberal appointee, reaches the end of his single term as commission chair on Dec. 11. The Harper government has refused Mr. Tinsley's request for reappointment, with Defence Minister Peter MacKay advising him in a letter “to start your career planning as soon as possible.”
> 
> Mr. Tinsley yesterday adjourned hearings and said he would rule next week on whether they would continue during an appeal.
> 
> Paul Champ, a lawyer for the human-rights groups that triggered the inquiry, said he's worried the Harper government is trying to run out the clock until Mr. Tinsley leaves, after which time they'd “appoint somebody who's friendly” and would “shut it down.”
> 
> Mr. MacKay, however, said the Tories have no intention of interfering with the inquiry.
> 
> Mr. Colvin, who now works at Canada's embassy in Washington, has been subpoenaed to testify.
> 
> He was the political director of an Afghanistan provincial reconstruction team until 2007.
> 
> Mr. Colvin's lawyer has argued the diplomat has personal knowledge of what military police knew about the risks of torture.
> 
> But federal lawyers have used the anti-terrorism law to bully Mr. Colvin, citing concerns about national security, his lawyer alleged in a letter to Ottawa this week. The law carries penalties of jail time for disclosing national secrets.
> 
> That's why Mr. Colvin sent the sealed affidavit to the watchdog, in order that he avoid legal jeopardy even while trying to prove his testimony would be worthwhile. It gives the commission a copy of it while government lawyers not affiliated with the inquiry vet it.




Of course, I do not know what Mr. Colvin *knows* or what he *thinks he knows* or what he heard from local Afghans. If he *knows* something – first hand knowledge – then the commission should, probably, hear about it. If someone told him something then it is, I believe it is just hearsay and, consequently, valueless and would serve only to muddy the waters.


----------



## GAP

Toronto 18 ring leader pleads guilty
Posted: October 08, 2009, 12:27 PM by Ron Nurwisah
Article Link

The alleged ring leader of the Toronto 18 terror cell has entered a guilty plea in court on Thursday.

Zakaria Amara, 23, was the alleged mastermind of the plot to explode truck bombs at prominent locations around Toronto and Ottawa. He is expected to receive life in prison.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/10/08/toronto-18-ring-leader-pleads-guilty.aspx#ixzz0TMal3SKf
More on link


----------



## Edward Campbell

More on the same: According to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the CBC News web site, a fourth member of the _Toronto 18_, this one a so called ringleader, has admitted his guilt: 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/10/08/toronto-18-plot-guilty-plea.html


> [siuze=14pt] Alleged Toronto 18 ringleader pleads guilty[/size]
> Thursday, October 8, 2009
> 
> CBC News
> 
> Zakaria Amara pleaded guilty Thursday to charges related to the alleged Toronto 18 plot to set off three fertilizer bombs, two in Toronto and one at an unnamed Ontario military base.
> 
> Amara, 24, has been alleged to be one of the ringleaders in the plot to recruit and train extremists to carry out the attacks, which never transpired. He is the fourth adult to admit guilt in the affair.
> 
> In a Brampton, Ont., courtroom, Amara pleaded guilty to two counts: knowingly participating in a terrorist group and intending to cause an explosion for the benefit of a terrorist group.
> 
> Justice Bruce Durno entered convictions against Amara on those counts before proceeding to sentencing. An agreed statement of facts is being read into the court record.
> 
> In all, 17 men and youths were arrested in the Toronto area in June 2006 and detained following an investigation by CSIS. An 18th person was arrested in August 2006.
> 
> The suspects faced charges including participating in a terrorist group, receiving training from a terrorist group, providing training and intending to cause an explosion that could cause serious bodily harm or death.
> 
> The offences allegedly took place between March and June 2006 in Mississauga and a rural township near Orillia, Ont.
> 
> The Crown alleges that the group's potential targets were the CN Tower, the Toronto Stock Exchange and the Toronto CSIS office.
> 
> Seven of the 18 people arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed. Another six are in custody awaiting trial.



Four down!


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_ is some more bad news:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-denies-csis-bid-to-revisit-secrecy-issues/article1324270/


> Judge denies CSIS bid to revisit secrecy issues
> *Decision should bring to a close the security-certificate case of Adil Charkaoui, once accused by spy agency of ties to al-Qaeda*
> 
> LES PERREAUX AND COLIN FREEZE
> 
> Thursday, Oct. 15, 2009
> 
> The Federal Court has dealt the government another setback in its attempts to deport alleged terrorists, ruling that key questions about what Canada's spy service must reveal in court do not deserve another look.
> 
> So-called security-certificate cases have become a high-stakes battleground over how Canada is to balance individual rights with the country's need to protect itself against terrorism. Federal lawyers last month chose to walk away from a key case - that of Adil Charkaoui, a Moroccan living in Montreal - rather than divulge information that they said could compromise national security.
> 
> Federal Court Judge Danièle Tremblay-Lamer yesterday rejected complaints that she was demanding too much transparency from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, a clandestine agency launched 25 years ago, and now complaining it is fighting a losing battle to protect state secrets.
> 
> "It's understandable a disagreement on evidence would create ... the belief the court put individual rights ahead of the demands of national security," Judge Tremblay-Lamer wrote in her 68-page ruling, "but that belief is unfounded."
> 
> Federal officials rely on CSIS information to initiate security-certificate cases, which amount to expedited bids to jail foreigners as high-level threats and then deport them. Yesterday's ruling should be the last word on the long-running Charkaoui affair.
> 
> Judge Tremblay-Lamer rejected a Crown request for a higher court to revisit some of the secrecy issues raised by the case. This disappointed CSIS officials, who hoped to get some legal clarity that would guide future cases.
> 
> "It is unfortunate that, given the unique nature of this decision and the implications for national security, the judge did not agree that the case presented aspects that warranted an appeal," said Manon Bérubé, a spokeswoman for the spy service.
> 
> During six years of litigation, Mr. Charkaoui won several bids to force CSIS to reveal information used to brand him a threat. Now the spy service is struggling to launch future cases. No new security certificates have been issued for years, and Mr. Charkaoui is free of the threat of jail, surveillance or eventual deportation.
> 
> The Charkaoui case was one of five active security-certificate cases that became bogged down in procedure and multimillion-dollar litigation. The remaining cases are at least seven years old.
> 
> Throughout them all, a predictable pattern has emerged: As defence lawyers press for ever greater disclosure, CSIS refuses to reveal information touching on its spy craft. And judges - regardless of what they think of state secrecy or the strength of each case - will not allow Islamist extremists to be sent back to homelands where they might be tortured.
> 
> Implicit in all of this is the question of whether Canada's spies belong in open court at all. Increasingly, CSIS operatives - who don't work to the same legal standards as police - complain of being sucked into court against their will. And it's not only security-certificate cases that are problematic.
> 
> Currently CSIS officials are testifying in the pretrial phases of criminal cases, often appearing as uncomfortable witnesses as defence lawyers test their investigative rigour. Within days, two CSIS agents will be called to testify - anonymously, and from behind screens - about their dealings overseas in the Abdullah Khadr extradition matter.
> 
> Federal officials had hoped to salvage a moral victory from the Charkaoui case by asking Judge Tremblay-Lamer to kick up some key questions to the higher courts. But Judge Tremblay-Lamer ruled the request amounted to an end run around her orders to disclose more CSIS information to Mr. Charkaoui.
> 
> The judge recalled how she asked the government to contact foreign intelligence agencies to ask their permission to disclose evidence lent to CSIS. On this point, security officials changed their minds "from one week to the next" on the damage that such a request could to do to national security, she said. "It's relevant to recall to what point the notion of national security is a matter of perspective," Judge Tremblay-Lamer ruled. "There can exist grey zones where disagreement is possible."
> 
> Mr. Charkaoui, now 36, had been branded by government officials as a top-tier al-Qaeda threat to Canada.
> 
> His lawyer is planning a lawsuit and related actions. "If they didn't want to divulge their evidence, they shouldn't have pursued the security certificate," said Johanne Doyon.
> 
> She said the CSIS national security claims were "nothing but a smokescreen."




I understand CSIS’s very legitimate desire for _”some legal clarity that would guide future cases,”_ but, as Perreaux and Freeze say in the story, _”implicit in all of this is the question of whether Canada's spies belong in open court at all._”

My answer is that they should not. We need a new, better way to deal with national security cases – those involving legal and illegal _residents_ and Canadian citizens alike.

Parliament *owes* the people of Canada its most urgent attention on this matter. But the media has made this issue so politically dangerous that most parliamentarians, led by our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, and his colleague the Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, Michael Igantieff, are too *frightened* to address it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is Christie Blatchford’s take on the issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/theres-no-one-who-could-argue-the-current-system-is-working-as-it-should/article1324208/


> There's no one who could argue the current system is working as it should
> 
> CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
> 
> Thursday, Oct. 15, 2009
> 
> When I told a colleague yesterday I'd spent the day at the extradition hearing for Abdullah Khadr, she asked, "anything interesting happen?"
> 
> "I haven't a clue," I replied.
> 
> Such as A) the specific nature of court proceedings against various members of the notorious first family of Canadian terrorism, and B) the general nature of Canadian court proceedings in terrorism-related matters that much of the evidence is kept from Canadians, and what is left to decipher is often indecipherable.
> 
> Consider that yesterday before Ontario Superior Court judge Christopher Speyer, for instance, the witness in the stand was frequently directed to something called "the Private Reasons of Justice Mosley" (this would be Federal Court Judge Richard Mosley, who made an order in the case allowing some previously secret information to be publicly disclosed), various bits of which are still redacted (this means censored), none of which is in the public domain.
> 
> Also consider that today's witness will be a CSIS agent, who will testify from behind a screen in order that his ability to continue working in the field is not compromised.
> 
> I have two things to say about that.
> 
> The first is that not too long ago, I had occasion to speak to a group of CSIS agents (the contents of my speech and the assembled group must remain ears-only of course, and I frankly fear I may have breached the Official Secrets Act by disclosing this little) and suffice it to say that for someone who went hoping to see someone remotely like the actor Daniel Craig (the new James Bond: the new and comely James Bond), preferably in the blue trunks he wore in Casino Royale, it was a crushing disappointment. You could meet some of the CSIS agents I saw that night a thousand times and not remember their faces the next second, so relentlessly ordinary-and-suburban-looking a group are they.
> 
> The second thing is, that if witnesses are called from the federal Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, or DFAIT as the branch is always called - as could happen, since some of their folks were involved when Abdullah was being held in Pakistan before coming back to Canada - I suggested they be allowed to testify from behind lace hankies or parasols, so as to reflect their greater delicacy and less tolerance for the bad behaviour that CSIS and RCMP types allegedly tolerate more easily.
> 
> If this makes no sense, perfect. That is just how the courts like it. We're all too stupid to understand anyway.
> 
> After court, I ran a couple of searches for previous court decisions, using the Khadr v. Canada search term.
> 
> In Federal Court, my query returned 42 results, 13 of them direct decisions in cases involving various Khadrs.
> 
> Two involve Abdullah, who is now 28 and facing extradition by the United States on charges he was an arms supplier to al-Qaeda, including allegedly hydrogen peroxide used in the making of land mines which he told authorities would be used against U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan (and thus against Canadians).
> 
> One case involves his brother Abdurahman, who isn't charged with anything and has never been deemed a threat, but who three years ago was fighting his refusal of a Canadian passport, which had been denied him on the grounds of national security because of his acknowledged al-Qaeda family. He ended up being allowed to reapply.
> 
> The other 10 cases involved their brother Omar, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay and is alleged to have thrown a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan in 2002.
> 
> A similar search of Supreme Court of Canada decisions, using the same term, returned 33 results.
> 
> The point is that the prosecution/representation of the various Khadrs has been a real growth industry in this country, and to little discernible result in that Omar is still in Cuba and Abdullah is still here in Canada and the female Khadrs who show up in court, some of them as veiled and covered as the process itself, still read ostentatiously from the Koran, clicking their tongues as they go.
> 
> I should add that Dennis Edney, the most affable Scot who has been the family's most steadfast lawyer over all these years, has done a huge chunk of work for free, or as the bar calls it, pro bono. Mr. Edney blushed in embarrassment when I asked him about this yesterday, clearly uncomfortable. But he admitted he's probably spent $100,000 of his own money representing the family, even as he demurred, with a grin, "there's no Scottish word for pro bono."
> 
> His burr, incidentally, means that though he was reading into the record, as questions, some of Judge Mosley's Private Reasons yesterday, thus theoretically bringing some of it into the public domain, it was still tricky to decipher.
> 
> At the end of the day, I don't think there's anyone who could argue that the current system is working very well - certainly not for Canadians, who seem never to get an answer to the only question that ever matters in these cases, that is, is X a terrorist or not?
> 
> The two Khadrs, for instance, have spent between them more than a decade in jails in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cuba and Canada but never once faced a proper trial, held in the open. They are alleged to have committed heinous acts; they claim to be the victims of heinous torture that their lawyers say renders any alleged confessions fruit of the poisoned tree and thus unreliable. Where does the truth lie between those extremes and will we ever know, or will we just keep them in jail as long as we can and then pay out millions in damages when they're released, as if we are sorry?




Blatchford is right: Canadians, all Canadians – even those accused of some security _offences_, are ill served by the existing “system.”

The first duty of the sovereign, in other words of all of us, is to defend the realm against “all enemies, foreign and domestic,” as our American friends love to say.

We have “domestic enemies.” “We” have had them so long as there has been a “we.” It is the duty of the national government to:

•	Protect us from those enemies; but

•	To protect “our” fundamental civil rights at the same time.

It’s a hideously complex task but there is no excuse for not getting the job done. The people who have the duty to “do the job” are members of parliament, especially those who are members of the government and, amongst those, the members of the cabinet led by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.


----------



## leroi

Maybe now that these cases are being successfully prosecuted more details will emerge about the plot. Some good videos of the "take down" and the terrorist "trigger test" and about five other videos are contained in this Globe and Mail article of October 20, 2009 authored by Colin Freeze. The videos can be located by scrolling to bottom of article.

Videos Give Public Glimpse of Homegrown Terror Plot 

LINK

These dramatic videos, released Tuesday by the Ontario Superior court, tell the tale of an al-Qaeda inspired cell of “homegrown” Canadian terrorists.

In June, 2006, a group of young extremists plotted to detonate deadly fertilizer-based truck bombs in downtown Toronto and at a Canadian Forces base. Scores of people, perhaps hundreds, could have been killed by the blast. The aim was to terrorize the populace, and pressure politicians to pull soldiers from the continuing NATO mission in Afghanistan.

Many of the preparations were caught on tape, either in recordings the suspects made, or via devices covertly installed by authorities. Police infiltrated the group and, after months of surveillance, rounded up suspects on June 2, 2006, the day a “sting” shipment of ammonium-nitrate fertilizer was shipped to the group's key players.

The footage reveals the plans of Zakaria Amara and, to a lesser extent, his co-conspirators Saad Khalid and Saad Gaya. This group of young men from Mississauga, Ont., recently admitted their guilt in open court. The common plea? They conspired to cause massive explosions in downtown Toronto.

The videos were played as evidence during court proceedings, but were only made available following a Globe and Mail application for public release of the footage.

A half dozen suspects remain before the courts, but only one of them is implicated in the bomb plot. The rest face lesser terrorism charges. It is anticipated their trial will begin in January. None of the videos posted here identify any of the remaining accused, whose identities are shielded by court-ordered publication bans. 

Here reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing provision (29) of the Copyright Act.​


----------



## MARS

New CSIS director criticizes Canadian opinion leaders, shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

------------------------------------
Canada oblivious to terror danger: CSIS boss

New director takes aim at critics in first public speech

By Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa CitizenOctober 30, 2009 6:36 AM

OTTAWA — Despite a history of domestic terrorism, from Air India to the Toronto 18, Canada has a “serious blind spot” acknowledging that violent extremism imperils our national security, says the new head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

In his first public speech since becoming Canada’s spy master this summer, Richard B. Fadden wasted no time Thursday railing against those he believes ignore, minimize and even applaud terrorism and the people caught up in it, while portraying government efforts to combat extremism as assaults on liberty.

“Almost any attempt to fight terrorism by the government is portrayed as an overreaction or an assault on liberty. It is a peculiar position, given that terrorism is the ultimate attack on liberties,” Fadden told an Ottawa conference of about 300 security and intelligence specialists.

In advocating for a more mature, nuanced debate on national security, Fadden directed his harshest comments at news media, a “loose partnership of single-issue NGOs, advocacy journalists and lawyers,” and Canadians who naively believe, “our charm and the Maple Leaf on our backpacks are all that we need to protect us.

“Why … are those accused of terrorist offences often portrayed in media as quasi-folk heroes, despite the harsh statements of numerous judges? Why are they always photographed with their children, given tender-hearted profiles, and more or less taken at their word when they accuse CSIS or other government agencies of abusing them?

“I … am not arguing that those accused of offences should be portrayed as guilty,” Fadden added. “In fact, a more balanced presentation is what I am hoping for.”

Instead, he said, accused terrorists are routinely portrayed as too unsophisticated, ill-prepared or youthful to actually commit such heinous acts. That theme, “permeates a fair amount of the coverage of those charged in the Toronto plot.

“I seriously doubt, however, whether editors would allow this kind of reasoning to be used in news coverage of those accused of murder or robbery.”

.....more at the link


----------



## mariomike

"Man who made hoax terror calls gets 12 months: "TORONTO — A Mississauga, Ont., man who pleaded guilty to making hoax terrorist calls has been sentenced to 12 months in jail.":
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091126/hoax_calls_091126/20091126/?hub=TorontoNewHome


----------



## Edward Campbell

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, illustrates why we need a thorough overhaul of our entire immigration and refuges systems, beginning with the fact that the two totally unrelated, on to the other:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/court-strikes-down-security-certificate-against-almrei/article1399619/


> Court strikes down security certificate against Almrei
> *Syrian-born man was arrested eight years ago on terror suspicions; Ottawa had been trying to deport him on seldom-used provision of immigration law*
> 
> Ottawa — The Canadian Press
> Monday, Dec. 14, 2009
> 
> A federal judge has struck down a national security certificate against a Syrian-born man arrested eight years ago on terror suspicions.
> The ruling today by Federal Court Justice Richard Mosley effectively frees Hassan Almrei.
> 
> The government had been trying to deport Mr. Almrei on a security certificate – a seldom-used provision of the immigration law for removing suspected terrorists and spies.
> 
> Mr. Almrei's lawyer, Lorne Waldman, said from Toronto his client was “very excited” over the ruling. Mr. Waldman had not yet read the full decision, and said he and Mr. Almrei would comment later.
> 
> The government argued the Syrian native's travel, activities and involvement in a false-document ring were consistent with supporters of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.
> 
> The ruling says there were reasonable grounds to believe Mr. Almrei was a security danger when detained in October 2001, but there are no longer reasonable grounds to believe that today.
> 
> It also says federal cabinet ministers breached their duties of “good faith and candour” to the court by not thoroughly reviewing the information on file prior to re-issuing the certificate against Mr. Almrei in February of last year.
> 
> The case is another in a series of blows to the security certificate law. The federal government has launched a sweeping review after acknowledging the system needs fixing.
> 
> The review could scrap or revamp the law used to arrest and deport non-Canadians considered a threat to national security.
> 
> Certificates have existed for three decades, and more than two dozen have been issued since 1991, when they became part of federal immigration law.
> 
> But recent cases have slowed to a crawl – or collapsed altogether – amid legal challenges and upbraidings from judges over miscues by Canada's spy agency.
> 
> The government has initiated just six certificate cases – four terror suspects, a hatemonger and an alleged Russian spy – since the 9/11 attacks on the United States.
> 
> Among critics, the deportation tool has come to symbolize the worst excesses of the fight against Islamic extremism.
> 
> Opponents say the process is fundamentally unfair because detainees are not given full details of the allegations against them.
> 
> A case involving Montrealer Adil Charkaoui, a native of Morocco, fell apart recently when the government withdrew supporting evidence, saying its disclosure would reveal sensitive intelligence sources and methods of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
> 
> Mr. Charkaoui, a French teacher and father of three, wants compensation for his six-year ordeal.
> 
> Four active cases range from seven to 10 years old, illustrating the legal limbo that certificates can create for detainees.
> 
> Mahmoud Jaballah and Mohamed Zeki Mahjoub, both Egyptian, were arrested in 1999 and 2000 respectively, while Mr. Almrei was detained one month after Sept. 11, 2001, and Mohamed Harkat of Algeria seven years ago this month.
> 
> All four men were granted release from prison under strict conditions that have controlled virtually their every move while the cases play out in the Federal Court of Canada.




I have no problem with the judge’s decision, as I understand it; he is interpreting the law, as written, in the light of the Charter, etc. The problem is with the laws and regulations that *aid* criminals and terrorists rather than protecting Canada from them.

We must begin by using the _notwithstanding_ clause of the Constitution to do away with e.g. _Singh v Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration)_ that, effectively, granted Charter protection to every single individual who manages, by hook or by crook, to get one foot on Canadian territory. The decision is pernicious and must be overturned or nothing else can be done.

Then, Charter rights and protections must be *earned* by newcomers on a graduated basis: legal resident, landed immigrant and, finally, citizen.

As a corollary, persons who enter Canada improperly or illegally must be granted only the most fundamental human rights but those must not include _protection_ from immediate deportation to the last (safe) place in which they were. (There are some obvious case where exceptions will be made.) *But*, that is, essentially, a _refugee_ problem. People who arrive here illegally, intending to either find refuge or, most often, stay and settle (in other words: immigrate) apply as refugees. We must not allow it. There is a precise definition of refugee as “a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country” and as a person who is fleeing war or violence. We, as human beings and as amongst the most fortunate people in the world have a human duty to help these people but that duty does not extend to making them into immigrants. Real refuges do not want to immigrate; real refugees want to go home, as soon as it is safe to do so. We can help, mostly, in two ways:

1.	By providing safe, humane ‘refuges’ near the refugees’ homes; and

2.	By helping to sort out the situation that created the refugees in the first place – that may involve the use of armed force.

Obviously, sometimes, neither of those courses will work and resettling refugees in Canada, as immigrants, will be the only solution but it should be the exception, not the rule.


----------



## mellian

From what I can tell, especially Harkat whose case I am more familiar with, they tried to immigrate. Just that the process can take while, and unable to return where they are from to wait, both in fear of getting persecuted and because what they had to do to get to Canada in the first place. 

If one is the run from authorities from home for whatever reason, it becomes lot harder to get to Canada legally, let alone start immigration process outside of Canada. So the alternative is unfortunately find shady ways of get there, which can result needing to contact people security agencies around the world do not like and consider security threats. 

So some folks get issued security certificates and arrested for nearly a decade of their lives simply because they were in contact with some bad folks even if it was only once and very brief?


----------



## Edward Campbell

mellian said:
			
		

> ...
> So some folks get issued security certificates and arrested for nearly a decade of their lives simply because they were in contact with some bad folks even if it was only once and very brief?




Yes.

It *might* be that "we" are erring on the side of caution, but it IS *national security*, our national security and "we" are entitled, indeed duty bound, as citizens, to protect our country.


Edit: grammar   :-[


----------



## CougarKing

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, illustrates why we need a thorough overhaul of our entire immigration and refuges systems, beginning with the fact that the two totally unrelated, on to the other:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/court-strikes-down-security-certificate-against-almrei/article1399619/
> 
> I have no problem with the judge’s decision, as I understand it; he is interpreting the law, as written, in the light of the Charter, etc. The problem is with the laws and regulations that *aid* criminals and terrorists rather than protecting Canada from them.
> 
> We must begin by using the _notwithstanding_ clause of the Constitution to do away with e.g. _Singh v Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration)_ that, effectively, granted Charter protection to every single individual who manages, by hook or by crook, to get one foot on Canadian territory. The decision is pernicious and must be overturned or nothing else can be done.
> 
> Then, Charter rights and protections must be *earned* by newcomers on a graduated basis: legal resident, landed immigrant and, finally, citizen.
> 
> As a corollary, persons who enter Canada improperly or illegally must be granted only the most fundamental human rights but those must not include _protection_ from immediate deportation to the last (safe) place in which they were. (There are some obvious case where exceptions will be made.) *But*, that is, essentially, a _refugee_ problem. People who arrive here illegally, intending to either find refuge or, most often, stay and settle (in other words: immigrate) apply as refugees. We must not allow it. There is a precise definition of refugee as “a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country” and as a person who is fleeing war or violence. We, as human beings and as amongst the most fortunate people in the world have a human duty to help these people but that duty does not extend to making them into immigrants. Real refuges do not want to immigrate; real refugees want to go home, as soon as it is safe to do so. We can help, mostly, in two ways:
> 
> 1.	By providing safe, humane ‘refuges’ near the refugees’ homes; and
> 
> 2.	By helping to sort out the situation that created the refugees in the first place – that may involve the use of armed force.
> 
> Obviously, sometimes, neither of those courses will work and resettling refugees in Canada, as immigrants, will be the only solution but it should be the exception, not the rule.



Sir, I agree with you to a point. But how would you propose the Canadian government do this overhaul you propose?

A seperate agency that processes refugees altogether? But would't you be more wary of "more government" and thus "more bureaucracy"?  ;D

Also, regarding issue of the exception you point out for genuine  refugees...

a.) The Canadian public do not always have the stomach to support armed force to "correct" the situation which made the refugees into refugees in the first place. 

For example, would the Canadian or American public be willing to support their military sent in to stabilize Somalia just to allow a few thousand Somalis to return to their homeland? Or (to use an extreme example) even overthrow the Chinese government to allow all those Chinese political dissidents to return to their homeland?  I didn't think so.

b.) The first course of action may actually be more practical if you don't want them to come to Canada at all. Aren't there refugee camps for Somali refugees in neighbouring Kenya, for example? Or Afghan refugees in camps Pakistan as well? Perhaps funding for the aid agencies who deal with these refugees might be preferrable.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I do not underestimate the difficulties in doing what I suggest is necessary but as the old maxim says, "when you want to get out of a hole, the first thing you must do is to stop digging."

I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.


----------



## sm1lodon

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I do not underestimate the difficulties in doing what I suggest is necessary but as the old maxim says, "when you want to get out of a hole, the first thing you must do is to stop digging."
> 
> I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.



Once again, an ounce of prevention, especially applied far away, is worth a pound of cure, applied at home. Or a ton.

Instead of waiting, like WWII, for a power-mad dictator or force to take over the world or as much as they can grab, then jumping in (speaking of the USA, here, and not disparagingly), they, the USA, are taking the fight over to where the force, i.e. terrorism, has its nest.

Which, I think, will end up in Pakistan. Just chasing them out of Afghanistan into Pakistan and not defeating them in Pakistan reminds me of not taking the Vietnam war sufficiently far into Cambodia, which was the main supply highway for the North Vietnamese.


----------



## mellian

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> It *might* be that "we" are erring on the side of caution, but it IS *national security*, our national security and "we" are entitled, indeed duty as citizens, bound to protect our country.



True, but there is such a thing as going overboard. 

Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"

Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"

"Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"

"What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"

"Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.



Canada and the CF is not exactly in the position to go around cleaning up some countries, especially for refugees. It is cheaper and easier to (and resource effective, safer, etc) to go through the hoops to live in Canada or pay for humanitarian refugee aid in neighbouring countries. Getting one's military stuck in various countries is not really good for national security.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

mellian said:
			
		

> True, but there is such a thing as going overboard.
> 
> Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"
> 
> Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"
> 
> "Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"
> 
> "What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"
> 
> "Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"



I could come up with an equally pointless faux conversation with the slant being that we are too lax.........however it would be as pointless as the dribble above.


----------



## mellian

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I could come up with an equally pointless faux conversation with the slant being that we are too lax.........however it would be as pointless as the dribble above.



Of course, and same with real cases, there are good and bad examples that can slant the argument either way. No matter how anal we are with security, even if we ban all refugees and immigrants from the country, we would still have national security threats and people still manage to get into Canada. 

Even with the most totalitarians countries still have problems of people infiltrating into their country and possibly causing trouble (or attempt to), past and present. Fixing the whole refugee and immigration system not going to change all that much in terms of security concerns for Canada. Nor is sending the CF to clean up messes in other countries so we can send refugees claimants back home.

In the other hand, I agree that as 'citizens' of Canada, we have a responsibility in helping keeping our country safe and secure, and need to be able to accept certain measures for it to happen.


----------



## J.J

> Quote from: mellian on Yesterday at 22:06:11
> True, but there is such a thing as going overboard.
> 
> Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"
> 
> Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"
> 
> "Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"
> 
> "What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"
> 
> "Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"



Having worked various roles at a major port of entry into Canada, both in the Customs and Immigration stream. I now currently work inland in an enforcement capacity and I can say categorically mellian you are completely out to lunch on that statement/belief on how permanent residents or refugee's are classified or processed.
Canada is quite lax and forgiving for past transgressions before your entry into Canada. We do not have as much leeway when you are actively involved in terrorism or issues that directly affect our national security. If we deported or prevented entry to every person that supports, socializes, prays with or even a relative of or contributes financially to a listed terrorist entity there would be a mass exodus for some ethnic communities.
Here is a hint....don't believe everything you read on CBC or the Huffington Post!!


----------



## Journeyman

Well that's got to suck. You and your pals pack up for Jihadi school, leave a propaganda video for mom & dad, get to Pakistan.......and no terrorist group wants you.
 :rofl:

Article link


> *Terror Wannabes? Arrested Americans Rejected For Jihad Training*
> By JIM SCIUTTO, PIERRE THOMAS and JASON RYAN
> Dec. 10, 2009
> The five American terror suspects arrested in Pakistan , where they allegedly sought training for jihad, may have had more ambition than actual ability, sources tell ABC News. Pakistani police say the men attempted to join several terror groups but were turned down....





> Lawyer: Families of U.S. Muslims Arrested In Pakistan Don't Believe Men Are Guilty


Ri-iiight. The "final message" video, and searching for jihadists within Pakistan, were simply misunderstandings -- school boys on a lark, you know.


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well that's got to suck. You and your pals pack up for Jihadi school, leave a propaganda video for mom & dad, get to Pakistan.......and no terrorist group wants you.
> :rofl:
> 
> Article linkRi-iiight. The "final message" video, and searching for jihadists within Pakistan, were simply misunderstandings -- school boys on a lark, you know.



Hmmm I wonder  is there a local chapter of these guys they could join?
http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/links.htm


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Red Toronto Star, is a story about another terrorist in Canada:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/745524--fanatics-return-to-city-feared?bn=1


> Fanatic convert to terrorism spent year in Toronto
> 
> John GoddardStaff Reporter
> 
> Published On Mon Jan 04 2010
> 
> 
> One of the most visible leaders of an Al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist militia in Somalia spent a year in Toronto ingratiating himself into the Somali immigrant community as a convert to Islam.
> 
> Omar Hammami – known to followers as Abu Mansour "Al-Amriki" (the American) – ate at Somali restaurants and prayed in Somali mosques. He married a Toronto woman of Somali origin and had a daughter with her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omar Hammami, known as Abu Mansour "al-Amriki," is seen in a YouTube video
> 
> Then, after learning Somali ways, he left to join the Horn of Africa's top terror group, Al-Shabab, to wage Islamic jihad and recruit other foreign nationals to the cause, say former friends and relatives speaking publicly of the terrorist's Toronto connections for the first time.
> 
> "He betrayed us," says a former friend who worked with Hammami at a Weston Rd. pizzeria. "For a man to be saying that, Islamically, it is okay to be killing innocent people – and yesterday you fed him bread and welcomed him into your houses – it kind of shatters you."
> 
> Five ethnic Somali men disappeared from Scarborough this fall, all friends believed recruited into Al-Shabab. Three are said by family associates to have since phoned home from Somalia. No direct connection to Hammami is known but in the Somali community his Internet postings are notorious.
> 
> On a 2008 recruitment video, referring to one of his dead fighters, Hammami says, "We need more like him.
> 
> "So if you can encourage more of your children and more of your neighbours, anyone around, to send people like him to this jihad, it would be a great asset for us."
> 
> A least 20 young men have left Minneapolis, Minn., for Al-Shabab in the last 18 months. One of them is confirmed to have blown himself up with a car bomb in the Somali port town of Bosasso. Five others are said by relatives to be dead.
> 
> Other young men have left from Boston, Columbus, San Diego and Seattle. Others have joined from Australia and the United Kingdom.
> 
> The suicide bomber who killed three government ministers and at least 16 others at a graduating ceremony for doctors and engineers last month in Mogadishu was recruited from Denmark.
> 
> Hammami himself is said to have been wounded in fighting late last year.
> 
> Al-Shabab's stated goals are to take power from the fragile government backed by African Union troops and turn Somalia into an Islamic state friendly to Al Qaeda. Ultimately, its leaders say, the aim is to establish a global Islamic state.
> 
> "We are striving to establish the Islaamic Khilaafah from East to West," Hammami writes in an Internet posting of Jan. 8, 2008, "after removing the occupier and killing the apostates."
> 
> For Torontonians, al-Shabab recruitment presents another terrifying possibility: A fanatic returns to explode himself in a crowd.
> 
> Or as RCMP Commissioner William Elliott put it in October: "The potential follow-on threat is Somali-Canadians who travel to Somalia to fight and then return, imbued with both extremist ideology and the skills necessary to translate it into direct action."
> 
> Omar Hammami is 25 years old. He grew up in Daphne, Ala., just outside Mobile.
> 
> His mother is Baptist by religion. His father is Shafik Hammami, a Syrian-born engineer with the Alabama transportation department and president of the Islamic Society of Mobile. Reached by phone last week, he refused comment.
> 
> Although Hammami grew up Baptist, he converted to Islam in the late 1990s while attending Daphne High School.
> 
> "He had tons of friends," fellow student Shellie Brooks told Fox News four months ago, "and of course things changed a bit when he converted because his beliefs changed."
> 
> In September 2001, Hammami had just started computer science studies at the University of South Alabama – and been elected head of the Muslim Student Association – when Al Qaeda launched its suicide attacks on the United States.
> 
> "It's difficult to believe a Muslim could have done this," he told the campus newspaper at the time.
> 
> At the end of 2002, he dropped out of school.
> 
> How he spent the next two years is not known but in the fall of 2004 he arrived in Toronto from Ohio, says one of his best friends from the period.
> 
> "He was interested in finding a large Muslim community," says the friend, a Somalia-born Torontonian who asks to be identified only as Abdi, because he says he fears Al-Shabab.
> 
> Of any Toronto immigrant community, the city's 80,000 Somalis are the most visibly Muslim, he says, especially the women who copiously cover themselves.
> 
> Together, Abdi and Hammami took jobs briefly at a dairy distribution company. Afterward they moved to 1 Pizza & Fish & Chips, on Weston Rd. north of Lawrence Ave. W.
> 
> "I became very close to him," Abdi says. "We talked a lot about religion. I knew a lot of his beliefs and ideology."
> 
> Hammami considered himself a Salafi Muslim, seeking to practise Islam as people did in the seventh and eighth centuries. But he was not extremist, Abdi says.
> 
> "The man I knew did not believe in suicide bombings," he says. "He did not believe in carrying weapons and fighting among the Muslims. He did not believe in calling people disbelievers just because they had a dispute with you."
> 
> On the other hand, Hammami was "easily irritated," the former friend recalls.
> 
> "There was one incident at the pizza place when a Somali singer placed a (concert) poster in the window," he says. "In a split second, (Hammami) removed it.
> 
> "To me, that is immaturity, not extremism," Abdi says. "Rather, he should ask permission to the owner saying, `You know, brother, (music and partying) is not according to tradition.'"
> 
> At some point early on, at an Islamic conference, Hammami met Sadiyo Mohamed Abdille. He was 20, she was 18.
> 
> "His face, it was a bit fanatic," recalls Mohamed Salad, the girl's father, of the day Hammami asked permission to marry her.
> 
> Salad despises fanatics. In Somalia, he rose to become an army colonel under military dictator Siad Barre. He was training in San Antonio, Texas, when Barre was ousted in 1991 and with no reason to return home Salad came to Toronto.
> 
> "If we had been in Somalia, I would have refused (permission to marry)," says Salad, now a coffee house owner on Lawrence Ave. W. "But I thought, `This is Canada. I am Canadian. Daughters decide what they like.'"
> 
> In June 2005, the couple left for Cairo. Hammami told people he wanted to study Islam at Al-Azar University.
> 
> That summer the baby was born. In September, Hammami told his wife they were going to Somalia but she balked. She phoned her father, who helped her and the baby return to Toronto.
> 
> Speaking for the woman, Scarborough lawyer Faisal Kutty would say only that his client legally separated from Hammami in June 2007, has had no contact with him for more than two years and "has fully co-operated with Canadian intelligence officials on this."
> 
> The RCMP, CSIS and Canada Border Services Agency refused comment on the case, other than to say, in the words of a CSIS spokesperson, "We are well aware of the situation in Somalia and its impact on Canada."
> 
> Hammami arrived in Mogadishu in late 2005, only to be arrested as a spy by leaders of the Islamic Courts Union, says Abdi, who has been tracking his former friend through personal networks.
> 
> But Hammami's credentials checked out. The Union, on its way to controlling much of the south in 2006, assigned him to its youth wing – Al-Shabab. Its leader, Aden Hashi Ayrow, sent him to Raas Kamboni training camp at the Kenyan border.
> 
> "He began to rise in the ranks," Abdi says. (A U.S. air strike killed Ayrow on May 1, 2008.)
> 
> In October 2007, Hammami appeared, his face covered, on an Al Jazeera TV report, still accessible on YouTube, about Al-Shabab's and Al Qaeda's "common goal." The report identified him as fighter and military instructor "Abu Mansour the American."
> 
> In May 2008, he starred in a 31-minute Al-Shabab video, face plainly visible, leading what he called an ambush against invading Ethiopian troops near the south-central city of Baidoa.
> 
> "The only reason we are staying here away from our families, away from the cities, away from, you know, ice, candy bars, all these other things, is because we are ready to meet with the enemy," he tells his fighters, presumably English-speaking foreigners like himself.
> 
> In April 2009, the ambush video went mainstream. Fox News and other media outlets reported on it. In September, Al-Amriki was identified as Hammami, prompting his indictment in Alabama on terrorism charges.
> 
> By then, Hammami had issued an anti-Western diatribe called "The Beginning of the End," still on YouTube, his answer to U.S. President Barack Obama's Cairo speech, "A New Beginning." Human rights, Hammami claimed, go against Islamic traditions such as stoning, cutting off hands and giving a woman no choice but to wear a headscarf.
> Also by then, Kenya's Daily Nation had reported that "Abu Mansur al-Meriki" had become No. 2 commander of an Al-Shabab unit of 180 foreign fighters led by Kenyan national Saleh Nabhan. (A U.S. helicopter raid killed Nabhan on Sept. 16 near Barawe.)
> 
> In September, an undated Al-Shabab video "At Your Service, Osama," showed Hammami leading military exercises.
> 
> Abdi says he heard in October that Hammami had been fighting near the Ethiopian border, and is recovering in hospital from bullet wounds and mental problems.
> 
> In Toronto two weeks ago, the Somali Canadian National Council brought together 150 community members to condemn Al-Shabab recruitment in Toronto.
> 
> "Until now we've been afraid to speak out," the group's president Abdurahman "Hosh" Jibril said in an interview. "Now we've reached the point of no return."
> 
> _Kawnayn "U.K." Hussein, host of "Midnimo (Unity)" Thursdays at 10 p.m. on Radio AM530, provided key research for this story._



Maybe the first thing we should do is to tell the congenitally dimwitted US Secretary of Homeland Screwups Security to keep her damned Islamist terrorists on her own side of the border – instead of blaming 9/11 on Canada. That woman is too stupid to breathe unaided. But I guess she’s a good fit for her department.

The second thing “we” should do is find this guy and, quietly, in the nice Canadian way, slit his throat before he returns.


----------



## old medic

T.O. man guilty of trying to send nuclear devices to Iran
The Canadian Press
07 July 2010



> TORONTO — A Toronto man has been found guilty of trying to send devices to Iran that could be used to build nuclear weapons.
> 
> A judge today convicted Mahmoud Yadegari of nine of the 10 charges he was facing -- he was acquitted of one count of forgery.
> 
> He will be sentenced July 29.
> 
> Yadegari, 36, was arrested in April 2009 after a joint eight-week investigation by the RCMP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
> 
> He is believed to be the only Canadian ever charged under the United Nations Act.
> 
> Yadegari was also charged under the Criminal Code, the Customs Act and the Export and Import Permits Act, as well as provisions in Canada's Nuclear Safety and Control Act.
> 
> Some of the offences Yadegari was found guilty of carry maximum sentences of 10 years in prison and $500,000 fines.
> 
> The case has received international attention and even the notice of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
> 
> In February, Ahmadinejad proposed that Yadegari be included in a swap of Iranians in U.S. prisons for three American hikers being held in Tehran.
> 
> The Iranian-born businessman used his small company, operated out of his Toronto home, to try to export to Iran via Dubai two of 10 pressure transducers he purchased from a U.S. company.
> 
> The hand-sized instruments convert pressure measurements into electrical signals for computers and other electronic devices. They have benign applications but can be used in the enrichment of uranium for nuclear weapons.
> 
> Iran insists it is enriching uranium to produce nuclear energy for civilian purposes. But the United States and some European countries accuse Tehran of secretly seeking to build nuclear weapons.
> 
> At a news conference following his arrest, police said Yadegari purchased the transducers from a Boston-area company for about $1,100 each. Police said the company alerted authorities.
> 
> Yadegari is a Canadian citizen who emigrated from Iran in 1998.


----------



## a_majoor

Why they can be radicalized so easily is a key question, and a look at their culture says a lot. More melting pot and far less multiculturalism would defuse this here at home among recent immigrants:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-looming-documentary-hbos-my-trip-to-al-qaeda/?singlepage=true



> *The Looming Documentary: HBO’s My Trip to Al-Qaeda*
> 
> It isn’t a simple case of “why do they hate us?” as this flawed, but engrossing documentary hosted by Pulitzer-winning author Lawrence Wright explains. It’s more about why they hate their own lives and why they think a supposedly noble death as a suicide bomber is their only escape.
> September 12, 2010 - by Christian Toto
> Share |
> 
> HBO continues to provide a valuable service to subscribers via its original programming slate, filling a glaring gap left by other media outlets.
> 
> My Trip to Al-Qaeda, the channel’s new documentary, reveals the face of the Western world’s enemy in a way that will haunt viewers.
> 
> The film, inspired by the off-Broadway show of the same name by author turned actor Lawrence Wright, details al-Qaeda’s philosophy in ways that feel fresh and frightening.
> 
> Sure, Wright brings a liberal’s gimlet eye for blaming America to the proceedings, something likely advanced by noted Bush-bashing director Alex Gibney (Taxi to the Dark Side).
> 
> The film’s far bigger takeaway involves a death culture eager to prey on vulnerable populations.
> 
> Al-Qaeda, debuting this month, uses Wright’s one-man show as a vessel to tell an expanded version of the terror group’s roots and realities.
> 
> It isn’t a simple case of “why do they hate us?” — an inane question that emerged post-9/11. It’s more about why they hate their own lives and how a supposedly noble death as a suicide bomber is often their only escape.
> 
> Gibney wisely opens up the show to include footage taken from Middle Eastern countries, returning to the stage play for occasional close-ups of Wright’s face.
> 
> He’s a crack storyteller, and he speaks in an easy cadence that reminds one of actor Owen Wilson. But the messages behind Wright’s stories are hardly comforting.
> 
> Wright, the author of the Pulitzer Prize winning book The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11, has been interviewing radical and reasonable Muslims alike for years. His stories are told in sometimes illogical order, but he keeps the narrative in one piece by showing how each brushes up against al-Qaeda.
> 
> He draw out the roots of the modern terrorist movement from Egyptian President Anwar el-Sadat signing a peace treaty with Israel — akin to signing his death warrant, Wright argues — to the Egyptian prisons which tortured those responsible for Sadat’s death.
> 
> Consider al-Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri, a doctor who spent time in an Egyptian jail for his role in the assassination.
> 
> “He entered prison a surgeon. He came out a butcher,” Wright says.
> 
> My Trip to Al-Qaeda offers few solutions on how to deal with the terrorist organization, nor does Wright complete thoughts about his own role studying their behavior. How should he respond if he snared an interview with Osama bin Laden himself? Does he stab the militant with the nearest sharp object, or simply record his thoughts like any responsible journalist might?
> 
> “I begin to wonder, ‘who am I when I’m talking to al-Qaeda?’” he asks himself.
> 
> Wright also co-wrote The Siege, the 1998 thriller that took a prescient look at terrorists attacking on U.S. soil. The movie feared the loss of civil liberties if a terrorist attack hit our shores, and Wright believes that’s precisely what happened after 9/11.
> 
> He conflates the degradations at Abu Ghraib with America in toto, and cries in horror to learn the U.S. waterboarded several al-Qaeda members to glean more information about future attacks.
> 
> Wright’s observations on the radical Muslim’s mindset are equally chilling. The culture keeps men separated from women, leaving them socially immature.
> 
> “It’s not so easy to be a terrorist if your girlfriend won’t let you,” he cracks. The men who follow the most radical brand of Islam “are nearly incapacitated with longing.”
> 
> And that hardly begins to describe life in Saudi Arabia, a cauldron for some of today’s most radical minds. Leisure activity doesn’t have a place in society, at least not by the Western world’s standards. Parks and museums are rare, movie houses don’t exist, and the Internet is heavily controlled and monitored.
> 
> Shopping offers their only vice, and when a new IKEA opened up in the country 15,000 people lined up to visit — with two people trampled to death in the crush.
> 
> That leaves a young population bored, frustrated, and often clinically depressed.
> 
> Enter al-Qaeda, a group which “empowers people who have no power,” he notes, a collective with “an engine that runs on the despair of the Muslim world.“
> 
> The film’s waning moments spend too much time detailing one FBI agent’s horror over U.S. interrogation techniques, a one-sided cry of rage from Wright that detracts from the main story.
> 
> Wright’s on target when he says the U.S. needs to better understand the radical mindset before engaging in a war on terror. But by blasting the Iraq War, excoriating enhanced interrogation techniques, and decrying modest crackdowns on civil liberties, Wright leaves few other tools available to beat back terror cells around the globe.
> 
> Anything the Western world does to fight al-Qaeda trips the Muslim “humiliation reflex,” causing them to hate the West even more. But what’s Plan B?
> 
> Wright lets loose with platitudes like, “Al Qaeda can’t destroy America. We can only do that to ourselves.” He’s correct — in theory — but a few well placed nuclear suitcases will bring down the country far more quickly than any draconian laws we can put in place to fight terrorism.
> 
> My Trip to Al-Qaeda is tough to watch, tougher to turn away from, and an invaluable aid to those who don’t understand the true nature of the enemy we all face.
> 
> Christian Toto is a freelance writer and film critic for The Washington Times. His work has appeared in People magazine, MovieMaker Magazine, The Denver Post, The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, and Scripps Howard News Service. He also contributes movie radio commentary to three stations as well as the nationally syndicated Dennis Miller Show and runs the blog What Would Toto Watch?


----------



## CallOfDuty

Here it is for free if you guys want to watch it...................http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=389341


----------



## a_majoor

A look at the Times Square bomber is very revealing, especially in that most of the usual tropes (poverty, illiterate, no hope) are clearly absent.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/09/027343.php



> *The Anatomy of Evil*
> 
> September 29, 2010 Posted by John at 8:58 PM
> 
> I think it is safe to say that the number one evil in the world today is Islamic extremism. Today we got a glimpse into that world, courtesy of Faisal Shahzad. Do you remember him? He is the home-grown terrorist who tried to blow up a Nissan Pathfinder in Times Square. He failed, fortunately, like several of his brethren over the last year or two, and therefore faded from memory.
> 
> But he is about to be sentenced for the crimes to which he has enthusiastically pled guilty. Earlier today, the federal prosecutors filed their memorandum in support of the government's recommendation of a sentence of life imprisonment. You can read the whole thing here. The prosecutors made several excellent points. First, it is easy to ridicule a terrorist whose plan goes awry, but Shahzad's attempt was no joke. The government carried out a reconstruction of Shahzad's crime in which his detonators worked: "[T]he controlled detonation conducted by the JTTF demonstrated that those effects would have been devastating to the surrounding area." Nearby vehicles would have been blown up, and dozens of pedestrians would have been killed. Shahzad planned his attack to maximize pedestrian casualties, since it is easier to kill people on foot than in cars.
> 
> Second, Shahzad is a typical terrorist in that he is intelligent, well-educated, and economically secure. Those who blindly assume that poverty is the cause of terrorism aren't paying attention:
> 
> Far from providing an explanation for his criminal activity, Shahzad's history and characteristics strongly militate in favor of the maximum available sentence. Prior to his decision to attempt to kill and maim scores of unsuspecting men, women and children in the heart of New York City, Shahzad had achieved a degree of academic and professional success in the United States and was living a life with his wife and two young children that was full of promise. Before seeking bomb-making training from a terrorist group in rural Pakistan in 2009, Shahzad had lived in the United States for nearly ten years and had taken advantage of an array of opportunities that this country provided. In his early years here, he was permitted to study at a university in Connecticut on a student visa and obtain a college degree. After graduating from college, a U.S. company hired him and agreed to sponsor him, thereby allowing him to remain in the United States on a working visa. And thereafter, a second U.S. company hired him and continued to sponsor him until he became a naturalized U.S. citizen in April 2009. He was paid competitive salaries at both jobs, which permitted him and his family to live comfortably in the suburbs of Connecticut. Notwithstanding this series of opportunities and accomplishments, and the recent births of his two children, Shahzad knowingly and deliberately chose a different path - a nihilistic path that celebrated conflict and death cloaked in the rhetoric of a distorted interpretation of Islam.
> 
> Islamic terrorism has, perhaps, several fathers, but poverty is not among them.
> 
> Third, the prosecutors closed their presentation by emphasizing the special and insidious danger that is posed by American Muslim terrorists:
> 
> Shahzad's crimes are uniquely disturbing because they were committed by a United States citizen who received training from a foreign terrorist organization. Foreign terrorist organizations depend upon a wide array of individuals across the world to survive and to accomplish their terrorist objectives. History has demonstrated that some within the networks of terrorist organizations are United States citizens who exploit the benefits of their citizenship to identify vulnerabilities within the United States or align themselves against the United States for the operational advantage of terrorist organizations. These individuals constitute a particularly pernicious threat to the national security of the United States. Under the cover of their U.S. citizenship, these operatives, facilitators, and sympathizers can remain in the United States undetected as well as travel freely around the world on their U.S. passports, gathering information and developing expertise for the benefit of those committed to harming the United States directly and its interests abroad.
> 
> There are few threats to the national security and the way of life in this country greater than a citizen who chooses to serve as an operative for a foreign terrorist organization and attempts to wage an attack inside the United States. Shahzad exploited the freedom and the opportunities provided to him in the United States to further his and the TTP's violent ends. He privately declared his own war on the United States, armed himself with a semi-automatic rifle, and was prepared to open fire on law enforcement agents and officers if they attempted to arrest him. As part of his war, he selected unsuspecting civilians as his targets, irrespective of their race, religion or nationality. After he lit the fuse, he so hoped that his bomb would detonate that he paused to listen for the explosion as he walked to Grand Central terminal, and if he had not been caught, he planned to detonate another bomb in New York City two weeks later. And for all of this, far from expressing remorse or contrition, Shahzad has only evinced a lasting sense of pride in his actions. Accordingly, irrespective of any mandatory sentence required by statute, only one sentence - a sentence of life imprisonment - is sufficient for this defendant.
> 
> The death penalty, apparently, is unavailable.


----------



## OldSolduer

I certainly hope he gets life.....as my wife, daughter, three sisters in law and two neices were near Times Square during that event. In fact, very close to what could be termed "Ground Zero"


----------



## Rahul

Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect? 
:2c:



> I certainly hope he gets life.....as my wife, daughter, three sisters in law and two neices were near Times Square during that event. In fact, very close to what could be termed "Ground Zero"



Life, with  ahem ...conjugal visits... by other inmates.


----------



## George Wallace

Rahul said:
			
		

> Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect?
> :2c:



I agree with you.  Why try to recreate the problems they are fleeing from/moving away from in Canada?  If they want to do that, then why did they leave their native land?  I assume that they thought that Canada had a better culture, so why would they want to change it to something else?  I just don't get it.  I would hate to think it was solely for the money and social health and welfare handouts.


----------



## a_majoor

The issue is these people have come to believe their particular brand of ideology, religion or social values trump the "Classical Liberal" values of Individual liberty, unencumbered ownership and use of property and the Rule of Law. Islamic Jihadis are not the only ones:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100056586/eco-fascism-jumps-the-shark-massive-epic-fail/



> *Eco-fascism jumps the shark: massive, epic fail!*
> 
> By James Delingpole Environment Last updated: October 1st, 2010
> 
> 886 Comments Comment on this article
> 
> I predicted this morning that No Pressure – Richard Curtis’s spectacularly ill-judged eco-propaganda movie for the 10:10 campaign – would prove a disastrous own goal for the green movement.
> 
> But what I could never have imagined was how quickly public disgust – even among greenies – would reach such a pitch that the campaigners would be compelled to withdraw it from the internet.
> 
> That, at any rate, is what they keep trying to do – cancelling it whenever it appears on You Tube, pulling it from their campaign website and so on.
> 
> Unfortunately their efforts are being frustrated by people on the sceptical side of the climate debate, who keep peskily insisting on reposting the video where everyone can view it. And rightly so. With No Pressure, the environmental movement has revealed the snarling, wicked, homicidal misanthropy beneath its cloak of gentle, bunny-hugging righteousness.
> 
> I don’t think any of us will ever be able to look at another Richard Curtis movie in quite the same way ever again. It may even be that we will now never, ever be able to enjoy another episode of the Vicar of Dibley, because all we’ll be able to think about is Dawn French with a Panzerfaust beneath her cassock ready to blast off the heads of any members of her congregation who don’t believe in Man Made Global Warming. What a sad day this is for us all.
> 
> PS If you want to register your disgust, a commenter from the previous blog Reconstruct has some helpful suggestions:
> 
> Now you’ve seen the video, prepare not to be surprised that your taxes helped pay for it.
> 
> The 10:10 Campaign is supported by:
> ActionAid (Govt of UK 2nd largest funder in 2009);
> The Carbon Trust (surely #1 on the list of quangos-to-go);
> The Energy Saving Trust.
> 
> Be not surprised that The Guardian is their ‘media partner’.
> 
> On the other hand, if you’re outraged by the video, you might be interested to know that they also have a small number of genuine commercial sponsors: O2, Sony and Kyocera all have helped fund the 10:10 Campaign.
> 
> I suggest that the first thing to do is to make your outrage known to O2, Sony and Kyocera, suggesting that their commercial interests might not be furthered by funding murderous nazi will-fulfillment propaganda.
> 
> UPDATE:
> 
> Here’s the excuse posted by the 10:10 organisers on the Guardian website.
> 
> Sorry.
> Today we put up a mini-movie about 10:10 and climate change called ‘No Pressure’.
> 
> With climate change becoming increasingly threatening, and decreasingly talked about in the media, we wanted to find a way to bring this critical issue back into the headlines whilst making people laugh. We were therefore delighted when Britain’s leading comedy writer, Richard Curtis – writer of Blackadder, Four Weddings, Notting Hill and many others – agreed to write a short film for the 10:10 campaign. Many people found the resulting film extremely funny, but unfortunately some didn’t and we sincerely apologise to anybody we have offended.
> 
> As a result of these concerns we’ve taken it off our website.
> 
> We’d like to thank the 50+ film professionals and 40+ actors and extras and who gave their time and equipment to the film for free. We greatly value your contributions and the tremendous enthusiasm and professionalism you brought to the project.
> 
> At 10:10 we’re all about trying new and creative ways of getting people to take action on climate change. Unfortunately in this instance we missed the mark. Oh well, we live and learn.
> 
> Onwards and upwards,



click on the link to watch the video and see for yourself


----------



## HavokFour

Rahul said:
			
		

> Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect?
> :2c:



Never understood it myself. As the son of a refugee I never once heard my father (Dominican Republic) make any such claim in the short amount of time I knew him. The second he landed on US soil he became your stereotypical gun toting, God fairing American. A very successful one too, he made quite a name for himself in both Goya Foods, Inc and The Coca-Cola Company.

Perhaps it is due to the rise in Liberalism around the world?



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I agree with you.  Why try to recreate the problems they are fleeing from/moving away from in Canada?  If they want to do that, then why did they leave their native land?  I assume that they thought that Canada had a better culture, so why would they want to change it to something else?  I just don't get it.  I would hate to think it was solely for the money and social health and welfare handouts.



While I am positive the majority of immigrants come here to *become* Canadians and to *integrate* into our society, there is still an large number that unfortunately have no other interest than to leech off Canadian Citizens.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *USA / Justice *
> 
> *Muslim-American terrorism study: Not many incidents, but it only takes one
> *
> By Brad Knickerbocker, Staff writer / February 2, 2011
> The Christian Science Monitor
> 
> 
> LINK
> 
> *Since 9/11, the number of Muslim-American terrorism suspects and perpetrators has averaged about 16 a year. Last year was slightly higher, but way down from 2009. *
> 
> In the years since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the number of Muslim-American terrorism suspects and perpetrators has averaged about 16 per year. In 2010, according to a new report, the total was 20.
> 
> That was a sharp drop from 2009, when 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes, according to the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security in Durham, N.C., a consortium among Duke University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and RTI International.
> 
> But 2009 likely was an aberration – the year when a group of 17 Somali-Americans joined Al Shabab, the Islamist insurgent movement linked to Al Qaeda. The number of individual Muslim-Americans plotting against targets in the United States also dropped by half, from 18 in 2009 to 10 in 2010.
> 
> “Of course, even a single terrorist plot is too many,” says Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the report’s author. “But this trend offers a challenge for the American public: If we ratchet up our security concerns when the rate of terrorism rises, should we ratchet down our concerns when it falls?”
> 
> That is certainly not the case for federal, state, and local law enforcement authorities tasked with preventing domestic terrorist attacks.
> 
> While most attacks have been disrupted or failed on their own, 11 attacks since 9/11 have resulted in 33 deaths – including 13 people killed by Nidal Hasan at Fort Hood, Tex., in 2009. The Times Square bombing attempt by Pakistan-born Faisal Shahzad could have brought the total deaths due to domestic terror attacks much higher if the bomb had not failed to explode when ignited.
> 
> *List of 2010 plots*
> 
> According to professor Mr. Kurzman’s analysis, 75 percent of the Muslim-Americans engaged in terrorist plots in 2010 were disrupted in an early stage of planning.
> 
> “This is consistent with the pattern of disruption since 9/11,” he writes, when 102 of 161 plots – 63 percent – were disrupted at an early stage of planning.
> 
> On Tuesday, Colleen LaRose – the Philadelphia woman who called herself “Jihad Jane” – pleaded guilty to four federal charges, including conspiracy to murder a foreign target (Swedish cartoonist Lars Vilks, who had depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad in ways that many Muslims found offensive), conspiracy to support terrorists, and lying to the FBI.
> 
> Over the past five years or so, about 30 American Muslim extremists have been caught up in sting operations, according to Mark Pitcavage, director of investigative research at the Anti-Defamation League.
> 
> Most recently, that includes Antonio Martinez (a Muslim convert who had changed his name to Muhammad Hussain), who attempted to detonate a car bomb at a US Army recruitment center in Maryland, and Somalia-born Mohamed Osman Mohamud, arrested in December for allegedly plotting to explode a bomb at the Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland, Ore., where thousands of families had gathered for the traditional Christmas tree lighting.
> 
> Other cases involved plotting to attack synagogues in the Bronx, attempting to funnel money to a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and plotting to carry out a coordinated bombing attack on Metrorail stations in suburban Virginia near Washington.
> 
> “Many of these extremists have a passionate desire to act on behalf of their cause, but in a practical sense have a limited ability,” says Mr. Pitcavage. “Part of this is due to their selection of tactics, which often tend towards large and spectacular attacks that are difficult to carry out.”
> 
> “Part of this is due to an inability on their part to obtain or construct weapons or explosives on their own,” he writes in an e-mail. “Thus when they encounter someone purporting to be able to supply such resources [including undercover FBI agents], they may well be receptive.”
> 
> *Targeting the 'lone wolf'*
> 
> It’s often pointed out that security agencies need to prevent all attempted attacks in order to be successful but that terrorists need to succeed just once. Of particular concern are home-grown “lone wolf” attackers, seen as expendable to terrorist groups overseas.
> 
> For this reason, sting operations frequently are the technique of choice in heading off such attacks.
> 
> “It does send a message that the government isn’t just leaving the barn door open like they were before 9/11, that it will have some kind of either limiting or deterrent impact on those who don’t come under the scrutiny of authority,” says Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino.
> 
> As Kurzman at the University of North Carolina points out, sting operations often begin with tips from the Muslim-American community itself – the largest single source of initial information, according to his research.
> 
> *IN PICTURES:* American Jihadis




More on LINK


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the RCMP:


> A four-year RCMP national security criminal investigation, known as Project Darken, has resulted in arrest warrants being issued for two former Winnipeg residents on terrorism-related charges.
> 
> RCMP investigators in Winnipeg have compiled evidence that two Canadian citizens, Maiwand Yar and Ferid Ahmed Imam, conspired to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training, with plans to later join the insurgency against NATO forces in Afghanistan.
> 
> Ferid Ahmed Imam, age 30, is being sought on charges of instructing to carry out terrorist activity and conspiracy to participate in activity of a terrorist group.
> 
> Maiwand Yar, age 27, is being sought on charges of conspiracy to participate in activity of a terrorist group and participation in activity of a terrorist group.
> 
> Both individuals are known to have traveled to Pakistan in March 2007. The current whereabouts of Maiwand Yar and Ferid Imam are unknown. These charges are being laid in absentia and Canada-wide arrest warrants have been issued for both men.
> 
> “These warrants are the result of a lengthy and thorough national security criminal investigation involving key partners throughout Canada and the U.S.,” said Assistant Commissioner Bill Robinson, Commanding Officer of “D” Division RCMP. “We are deeply committed to our efforts aimed at countering terrorism. This investigation targets criminal activity and not specific communities or groups.”
> 
> Project Darken was conducted by the RCMP National Security Enforcement Section in Winnipeg with the cooperation of partners at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Canada Border Services Agency, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation, and international law enforcement agencies.
> 
> (....)
> 
> The public is encouraged to contact the RCMP National Security tip line at 1-800-420-5805 to report information on the whereabouts of Maiwand Yar and Ferid Imam, or suspicious activities that could pose any threat to Canada’s national security.



More from CBC.ca (via Yahoo) here, and a bit of backstory from October of last year here.

Edited to add attached statement from CSIS Prairie Region DG.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit more detail from the FBI on one of the chaps:


> A superseding indictment was unsealed in Brooklyn federal court yesterday charging Ferid Imam, also known as "Yousef," with providing and conspiring to provide material support to al Qaeda, aiding and abetting the terrorist training of Najibullah Zazi, Zarein Ahmedzay, and Adis Medunjanin, and using a destructive device in furtherance of crimes of violence.1 The indictment was unsealed in coordination with Canadian authorities, who earlier today announced terrorism charges against Imam, who is a Canadian citizen. According to the Eastern District indictment, Imam aided and abetted Zazi, Ahmedzay, and Medunjanin's receipt of military-type training from al Qaeda when the three men traveled to Pakistan in 2008. Zazi, Ahmedzay, and Medunjanin subsequently returned to the United States to carry out a plot to detonate improvised explosive devices on behalf of al Qaeda. This plot was uncovered and disrupted by law enforcement authorities in September 2009. Zazi pleaded guilty to his role in the plot on February 22, 2010; Ahmedzay similarly pleaded guilty on April 23, 2010.
> 
> If convicted of the crimes in the indictment, Imam faces between 30 years' and life imprisonment.
> 
> The charges were announced by Loretta E. Lynch, United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New York, Janice K. Fedarcyk, Assistant Director-in-Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Field Office, and Raymond W. Kelly, Commissioner, New York City Police Department.
> 
> "As today's charges demonstrate, we will not rest in our pursuit of those responsible for plotting terrorist attacks," stated United States Attorney Lynch. Ms. Lynch expressed her gratitude to the law enforcement personnel, both American and Canadian, who took part in the investigation.
> 
> "The three men already charged with conspiring to set off bombs in New York were also charged with receiving overseas training to accomplish that nefarious goal. Among other alleged acts of terrorism, Ferid Imam helped them get that training. Today's charges are an important step in bringing to justice all the conspirators," said FBI New York Assistant Director-in-Charge Fedarcyk ....


----------



## a_majoor

An ominous prediction:

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2011/03/14/what-if-they-are-already-here/?print=1



> *What if They Are Already Here?*
> 
> Posted By Michael Ledeen On March 14, 2011 @ 9:21 pm In Uncategorized | 45 Comments
> 
> A very long time ago — back in the last century, when I worked for men like Alexander Haig and Ronald Reagan — the United States government knew of at least three terrorist sleeper cells on our soil.  The most famous of these was  in St. Louis, Missouri, where Zeit Isa, a member of the Abu Nidal organization — one of the most lethal of that time — was quietly running a convenience store.  He was a Palestinian who had gone to Puerto Rico and married a local woman (even though he already had a wife in the old country).  They produced two girls, and one night the older one came home late and her father stabbed her to death as her mother held her down.  The FBI got the whole thing on audio tape.
> 
> This led to the trial of 4 members [1] of the group in the mid-nineties, which exposed the Abu Nidal sleeper network to public view.  Many of the network, realizing that it had been penetrated by the FBI, left the United States, but Isa and his wife spent the rest of their lives in a federal prison.
> 
> You’d have to think that if there were three sleeper cells in America in the eighties, there must be even more now, and I’m sure that’s correct. Dave Gaubatz, who’s spent years studying this nasty business, says so quite categorically [2], and, like other counterterrorist experts, sounds surprised none of the terror underground has emerged to kill Americans.
> 
> The government doesn’t ever want to talk about such things, but every so often we get to look through a dark windowpane, as for example the very disturbing story [3] earlier this year about an Iranian book that turned up in the Arizona desert.  It was a hymn to martyrs — suicide killers.  If you read the whole thing, you’ll probably break into a sweat.  Try this:
> 
> “At this time, DHS does not have any credible information on terrorist groups operating along the Southwest border,” a Department of Homeland Security [4] official said in a statement.”  But we’re not talking about groups operating along the border;  we’re talking about terrorists inside the United States.  Those intended-to-be-reassuring words from DHS carefully beg the central question.  And the more you read, the worse it gets:
> 
> (FBI Director Robert) Mueller testified before the House Appropriations Committee in March 2005 that “there are individuals from countries with known Al Qaeda [5] connections who are changing their Islamic surnames to Hispanic-sounding names and obtaining false Hispanic identities, learning to speak Spanish and pretending to be Hispanic.”
> 
> Just last year, the Department of Homeland Security had in custody thousands of detainees from Afghanistan [6], Egypt, Iraq [7], Iran, Pakistan [8], Saudi Arabia [9] and Yemen [10]. U.S. Border Patrol statistics indicate that there were 108,025 OTMs (“Other Than Mexicans”) detained in 2006, compared to 165,178 in 2005 and 44,614 in 2004.
> 
> So we’ve got thousands (!) of dangerous Middle Easterners in prison (not counting the many “diplomatic personnel” we’ve kicked out of the country, like those Iranians working at the UN caught photographing subway stations and bridges in the middle of the night), and surely we do not have them all.  Some of them must have burrowed in.  A friend in the FBI told me, in the nineties, that they had identified sleeper terrorists working as doctors, dentists, and attorneys.  They had excellent “cover,” in short, they were not what most people imagine (crazed fanatics running around with scimitars shouting short phrases in Arabic and praying in airports on their little carpets).
> 
> And then there is the frightening story of a possible fifth terrorist team on 9/11.  This is documented by a Wikileaks classified cable given to the London Telegraph [11].
> 
> It tells of a 3-man team of Qataris who flew from London to the United States, staked out some targets in New York and Washington, and then went to southern California.  They were scheduled on the American Airlines plane that hit the Pentagon (the one on which Barbara Olson was murdered), but, at the last minute, they switched flights and left the country.
> 
> So they’ve come here.  Some have installed themselves among us, others have passed through.  But doubt not that there are terrorists waiting for the “go code” to attack.  Indeed, we often find them in the trunks of nice cars [12] crossing our borders.
> 
> We’re at war, but our leaders are forever forbidding us to even say it.  Yet denial will only make things worse, offering more opportunities to our would-be killers.  You know, the ones that don’t officially exist.  Except they always have.
> 
> Article printed from Faster, Please!: http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen
> 
> URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2011/03/14/what-if-they-are-already-here/
> 
> URLs in this post:
> 
> [1] the trial of 4 members: http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-02/news/mn-18130_1_abu-nidal
> 
> [2] says so quite categorically: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.8528/pub_detail.asp
> 
> [3] very disturbing story: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/27/iranian-book-celebrating-suicide-bombers-arizona-desert/
> 
> [4] Homeland Security: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/national-security.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [5] Al Qaeda: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/iraq/al-qaeda.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [6] Afghanistan: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/afghanistan.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [7] Iraq: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/supplemental-spending.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [8] Pakistan: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/pakistan.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [9] Saudi Arabia: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/saudi-arabia.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [10] Yemen: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/yemen-al-qaeda.htm#r_src=ramp
> 
> [11] the London Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8297848/WikiLeaks-Did-al-Qaeda-plot-fifth-attack-on-911.html
> 
> [12] in the trunks of nice cars: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351385/Controversial-Muslim-cleric-caught-smuggled-U-S-Mexico-border.html


----------



## a_majoor

"They" are also indulging in info ops:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-american-foreign-donors-are-paying-off-our-profs-shouldnt-we-address-this/?print=1



> *Anti-American, Foreign Donors Are Paying Off Our Profs. Shouldn’t We Address This?*
> Posted By Clarice Feldman On March 25, 2011 @ 12:31 pm In Uncategorized | 32 Comments
> 
> When educators who are identified as professors from prestigious universities testify before Congress, write op-eds, and appear on public or media sponsored panels, most readers and listeners value their words more than those of others less credentialed. Perhaps this is especially the case when the subject is foreign affairs, which — without warrant — is generally treated as an arcane subject requiring considerable specialized study to fully comprehend.
> 
> For this reason, concern is growing that our universities, especially those highly regarded, have been receiving very large sums of cash from abroad, often from countries or citizens of countries which hold positions antithetical to our interests or engage in conduct shocking to our values. This matter is receiving critical attention from both sides of the political spectrum.
> 
> The fact of these large gifts is no secret. 20 USC 1011-Sec. 1011f requires colleges and universities to disclose foreign donations and contracts valued at $250,000 or more, and the Department of Education annually posts them online on its website.
> 
> Today, the Chronicle of Higher Education published an article by Scott Carlson on the subject [1] (subscription only). Reviewing the latest such report from the DOE (the next is due next month), he notes:
> 
> Over the past 10 years, gifts from and contracts with governments, companies, and individuals [in the Middle East] have amounted to more than $600 million.
> 
> Qatar is the largest contributor, donating almost half of the total. It is followed by Saudi Arabia, which donated $77 million. I suspect that with the downturn in the American economy these large foreign gifts are being more aggressively sought out and constitute a larger and larger portion of university revenues.
> 
> How much of this is known to alumni and students is unclear. If you recall, the videos of the NPR fundraisers (both former university fundraisers) and the make-believe Arabs revealed that they were very willing to do what they could to keep the proposed gift anonymous. They said they had done this before, and even mentioned an $80 million dollar gift — apparently from a domestic giver with a feminist bent — to a number of universities which had successfully been kept under wraps by all the schools concerned. I suspect that a great deal of the foreign funding, though reported as the law requires to the federal government, may not be fully known in university communities.
> 
> In any event, word is getting out. As Carlson observes, the initial complaints came from conservatives and those who support Israel, but now the left — which is expressing concern about human rights issues — has joined in. Some of the most well-publicized of these disputes here and in the UK involve unseemly conduct on the part of university officials, but incidents which undermine scholarship are not as well-known.
> 
> We may know of Lawrence Tech’s grant of a doctorate to Bahrain’s prime minister, who in turn donated $3 million to the university; or we may know of the scandal at the London School of Economics — the university trained Libyan officials and granted an apparently unearned doctorate to one of the dictator’s sons. (Subsequently, it was learned that Michigan State was also training Gaddafi’s men, and prominent Harvard professors — through a public relations firm of their creation, Monitor — were hiring professors in part to burnish the dictator’s image.) However, although these incidents have had higher profiles, I believe these acts are far less insidious and detrimental to our interests and to the universities’ basic functions than is so much else that this largesse creates on a regular, lower-profile basis.
> 
> First, these gifts cannot but distort the research and classroom work of a university. Professors, universities, and the entire university food chain (graduate students, assistant professors, students) all know who has money, and naturally gravitate to those studies and projects for which there is funding. If there is no money to support research in a given area, there can be no fellowships or grants to sustain the scholarship. So teachers read, teach, and write about topics for which funding is available, and students make such topics the object of their study. Time is a scarce resource even in the groves of academe, and smart people do not wish to waste theirs pursuing subjects for which there will be no ability to finance and publicize their endeavors.
> 
> Second, can one doubt that there will be a tendency not to offend the donors? It’s possible that Stephen Walt (professor of international relations at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government), a man who was hired to tart up Gaddafi in the public view, might have written this drivel [2] on his own without the money, but one doubts it despite his strong anti-Israel, pro-Arab views:
> 
> First, although Libya is far from a democracy, it also doesn’t feel like other police states that I have visited. I caught no whiff of an omnipresent security service — which is not to say that they aren’t there — and there were fewer police or military personnel on the streets than one saw in Franco’s Spain. The Libyans with whom I spoke were open and candid and gave no sign of being worried about being overheard or reported or anything like that. The TV in my hotel room featured 50+ channels, including all the normal news services (BBC World Service, CNN, MSNBC, Bloomberg, Al Jazeera, etc.) along with contemporary U.S. sitcoms like “2-1/2 Men,” shows like “Desperate Housewives,” assorted movies, and one of the various “CSI” clones. A colleague on the trip told me that many ordinary Libyans have satellite dishes and that the government doesn’t interfere with transmissions. I tried visiting various political websites from my hotel room and had no problems, although other human rights groups report that Libya does engage in selective filtering of some political websites critical of the regime.  It is also a crime to criticize Qaddafi himself, the government’s past human rights record is disturbing at best, and the press in Libya is almost entirely government-controlled.  Nonetheless, Libya appears to be more open than contemporary Iran or China and the overall atmosphere seemed far less oppressive than most places I visited in the old Warsaw Pact.
> 
> Benjamin R. Barber, then a senior fellow at Demos (a New York-based think tank focused on the theory and practice of democracy) and now at Rutgers, was also hired by the Harvard-related group to buff up the Libyans. He wrote this bit of treacle [3]:
> 
> Written off not long ago as an implacable despot, Gaddafi is a complex and adaptive thinker as well as an efficient, if laid-back, autocrat. Unlike almost any other Arab ruler, he has exhibited an extraordinary capacity to rethink his country’s role in a changed and changing world.
> 
> On the other hand, Joseph Nye of Harvard’s Kennedy School didn’t act as a Gaddafi promoter. Upon returning from a trip to Libya, he disclosed his consulting arrangement with Monitor and reported critically on what he saw there [4]. It could well be that the funders — like those who fund two Georgetown University centers run by Professors John L. Esposito and Michael Hudson, two men instinctively critical of the U.S. and Israel and indulgent of the Arabs — are often merely putting money in the pockets of those who already take their side, and are not buying their approval. Mutual attraction, not prostitution, may explain the grants on one side and the product on the other.
> 
> Still, by funding these professors the donors are assuring that these professors gain power and prominence within their university and the academic community.
> 
> This problem is not confined to foreign gifts. Those who follow the latest politically popular trends — like global warming — get funded by the government; those academics skeptical of it do not. Similarly, when the Annenberg Foundation funds went from that foundation, through Obama, to Bill Ayers [5], Ayers’ power within the University of Illinois undoubtedly increased, along with his sway in the national educational establishment itself. Still, the notion of foreign governments, especially those who pose national security issues for this nation, buying up or paying off like-minded professors or directing undue scholarship towards a benign reading of matters in their interest is especially troubling.
> 
> Aside from monitoring what information is made public, is there anything else that can be done? I think a first step would be for universities to adopt a code of conduct, requiring professors who speak publicly before Congress, in the media, and before public audiences to disclose any foreign funding of which they are the recipients. This hardly seems to be asking a great deal. I believe it is a policy in ordinary use respecting scientific research — I can’t see why this policy merits objection from academia. Increasingly the public is used to and demanding transparency in all our institutions — why should universities and those who run them and work there be exempt? They have a unique ability to shape public opinion, and with that comes a special obligation to be candid about who’s footing the bills.
> 
> Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com
> 
> URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-american-foreign-donors-are-paying-off-our-profs-shouldnt-we-address-this/
> 
> URLs in this post:
> 
> [1] published an article by Scott Carlson on the subject: http://chronicle.com/article/Mideast-Unrest-Reawakens/126817/
> [2] this drivel: http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/18/the_shores_of_tripoli
> [3] this bit of treacle: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401328.html
> [4] reported critically on what he saw there: http://www.tnr.com/article/85011/joseph-nye-qaddafi-libya-tnr
> [5] when the Annenberg Foundation funds went from that foundation, through Obama, to Bill Ayers: http://pajamasmedia.com../../../../../blog/can-obama-survive-the-annenberg-cover-up/


----------



## a_majoor

How to guide of what to look for. Remember, if seconds count, the police are minutes away....

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110406-how-tell-if-your-neighbor-bombmaker



> *How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker*
> April 7, 2011 | 0855 GMT
> 
> How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker
> 
> By Scott Stewart
> 
> Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) released the fifth edition of its English-language jihadist magazine “Inspire” on March 30. AQAP publishes this magazine with the stated intent of radicalizing English-speaking Muslims and encouraging them to engage in jihadist militant activity. Since its inception, Inspire magazine has also advocated the concept that jihadists living in the West should conduct attacks there, rather than traveling to places like Pakistan or Yemen, since such travel can bring them to the attention of the authorities before they can conduct attacks, and AQAP views attacking in the West as “striking at the heart of the unbelievers.”
> 
> *To further promote this concept, each edition of Inspire magazine has a section called “Open Source Jihad,” which is intended to equip aspiring jihadist attackers with the tools they need to conduct attacks without traveling to jihadist training camps. The Open Source Jihad sections in past editions have contained articles such as the pictorial guide with instructions titled “Make a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom” that appeared in the first edition.*
> 
> In this latest edition of Inspire there are at least three places where AQAP encourages jihadists to conduct “lone wolf” attacks rather than coordinate with others due to the security risks inherent in such collaboration (several jihadist plots have been thwarted when would-be attackers have approached government informants looking for assistance). In recent years there have been a number of lone wolf attacks inside the United States, such as the June 2009 shooting at an armed forces recruiting center in Little Rock, Ark.; the November 2009 Fort Hood shooting; and the failed bombing attack in New York’s Times Square in May 2010. Of course, the lone wolf phenomena is not just confined to the United States, as evidenced by such incidents as the March 2 shooting attack against U.S. military personnel in Frankfurt, Germany.
> 
> In the past, STRATFOR has examined the challenges that lone wolf assailants and small, insulated cells — what we call grassroots jihadists — present to law enforcement and intelligence agencies. We have also discussed the fact that, in many cases, grassroots defenders such as local police officers can be a more effective defense against grassroots attackers than centralized federal agencies.
> 
> But local federal agents and local police officers are not the only grassroots defenders who can be effective in detecting lone wolves and small cells before they are able to launch an attack. Many of the steps required to conduct a terrorist attack are undertaken in a manner that makes the actions visible to any outside observer. It is at these junctures in the terrorist attack cycle that people practicing good situational awareness can detect these attack steps — not only to avoid the danger themselves, but also to alert the authorities to the suspicious activity.
> 
> Detecting grassroots operatives can be difficult, but it is possible if observers focus not only on the “who” aspect of a terrorist attack but also the “how” — that is, those activities that indicate an attack is in the works. In the past we’ve talked in some detail about detecting preoperational surveillance as part of this focus on the “how.” Now, we would like to focus on detecting another element of the “how” of terrorism and discuss the ways one can detect signs of improvised-explosives preparation — in other words, how to tell if your neighbor is a bombmaker.
> 
> IEDs and Explosive Mixtures
> 
> In the 11th edition of “Sada al-Malahim,” AQAP’s Arabic-language online jihadist magazine, Nasir al-Wahayshi noted that jihadists “don’t need to conduct a big effort or spend a lot of money to manufacture 10 grams of explosive material” and that they should not “waste a long time finding the materials, because you can find all these in your mother’s kitchen, or readily at hand or in any city you are in.” Al-Wahayshi is right. It truly is not difficult for a knowledgeable individual to construct improvised explosives from a wide range of household chemicals like peroxide and acetone or chlorine and brake fluid.
> 
> It is important to recognize that when we say an explosive mixture or an explosive device is “improvised,” the improvised nature of that mixture or device does not automatically mean that the end product is going to be ineffective or amateurish. Like an improvised John Coltrane saxophone solo, some improvised explosive devices can be highly-crafted and very deadly works of art. Now, that said, even proficient bombmakers are going to conduct certain activities that will allow their intent to be discerned by an outside observer — and amateurish bombmakers are even easier to spot if one knows what to look for.
> 
> In an effort to make bombmaking activity clandestine, explosive mixtures and device components are often manufactured in rented houses, apartments or hotel rooms. We have seen this behavior in past cases, like the December 1999 incident in which the so-called “Millennium Bomber” Ahmed Ressam and an accomplice set up a crude bombmaking factory in a hotel room in Vancouver, British Colombia. More recently, Najibullah Zazi, who was arrested in September 2009, was charged with attempting to manufacture the improvised explosive mixture tri-acetone tri-peroxide (TATP) in a Denver hotel room. In September 2010, a suspected lone wolf assailant in Copenhagen, accidentally detonated an explosive device he was constructing in a hotel. Danish authorities believe the device was intended for an attack on the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, which was targeted because of its involvement in publishing the controversial cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed.
> 
> Similar to clandestine methamphetamine labs (which are also frequently set up in rental properties or hotel rooms), makeshift bombmaking operations frequently utilize volatile substances that are used in everyday life. Chemicals such as acetone, a common nail polish remover, and peroxide, commonly used in bleaching hair, can be found in most grocery, beauty, drug and convenience stores. Fertilizers, the main component of the bombs used in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the 1993 World Trade Center attack, can be found in large volumes on farms or in farm supply stores in rural communities.
> 
> However, the quantities of these chemicals required to manufacture explosives is far in excess of that required to remove nail polish or bleach hair. Because of this, hotel staff, landlords and neighbors can fairly easily notice signs that someone in their midst is operating a makeshift bombmaking laboratory. They should be suspicious, for example, if a new tenant moves several bags of fertilizer into an apartment in the middle of a city, or if a person brings in gallons of acetone, peroxide or sulfuric or nitric acid. Furthermore, in addition to chemicals, bombmakers also utilize laboratory implements such as beakers, scales, protective gloves and masks — things not normally found in a hotel room or residence.
> 
> Additionally, although electronic devices such as cell phones or wristwatches may not seem unusual in the context of a hotel room or apartment, signs that such devices have been disassembled or modified should raise a red flag, as these devices are commonly used as initiators for improvised explosive devices. There are also certain items that are less commonly used in household applications but that are frequently used in bombmaking, things like nitric or sulfuric acid, metal powders such as aluminum, magnesium and ferric oxide, and large quantities of sodium carbonate — commonly purchased in 25-pound bags. Large containers of methyl alcohol, used to stabilize nitroglycerine, is another item that is unusual in a residential or hotel setting and that is a likely signal that a bombmaker is present.
> 
> Fumes from the chemical reactions are another telltale sign of bombmaking activity. Depending on the size of the batch being concocted, the noxious fumes from an improvised explosive mixture can bleach walls and curtains and, as was the case for the July 2005 London attackers, even the bombmakers’ hair. The fumes can even waft outside of the lab and be detected by neighbors in the vicinity. Spatter from the mixing of ingredients like nitric acid leaves distinctive marks, which are another way for hotel staff or landlords to recognize that something is amiss. Additionally, rented properties used for such activity rarely look as if they are lived in. They frequently lack furniture and have makeshift window coverings instead of drapes. Properties where bomb laboratories are found also usually have no mail delivery, sit for long periods without being occupied and are occupied by people who come and go erratically at odd hours and are often seen carrying strange things such as containers of chemicals.
> 
> The perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing manufactured the components for the truck bomb used in that attack in a rented apartment in Jersey City, N.J. The process of cooking the nitroglycerine used in the booster charges and the urea nitrate used in the main explosive charge created such strong chemical fumes that some of the paint on the walls was changed from white to blue and metal doorknobs and hinges inside of the apartment were visibly corroded. The bombmakers also flushed some of the excess chemicals down the toilet, spilling some of them on the bathroom floor and leaving acidic burn marks. The conspirators also spilled chemicals on the floor in other places, on the walls of the apartment, on their clothing and on other items, leaving plenty of trace evidence for investigators to find after the attack.
> 
> Given the caustic nature of the ingredients used to make homemade explosive mixtures — chemicals that can burn floors and corrode metal — and the very touchy chemical reactions required to make things like nitroglycerin and TATP, making homemade explosives can be one of the most dangerous aspects of planning an attack. Indeed, Hamas militants refer to TATP as “the Mother of Satan” because of its volatility and propensity to either severely burn or kill bombmakers if they lose control of the chemical reaction required to manufacture it.
> 
> In January 1995, an apartment in Manila, Philippines, caught fire when the bombmaker in the 1993 World Trade Center attack, Abdel Basit (aka Ramzi Yousef), lost control of the reaction in a batch of TATP he was brewing for his planned attack against a number of U.S. airliners flying over the Pacific Ocean — an operation he had nicknamed Bojinka. Because of the fire, authorities were able to arrest two of Basit’s co-conspirators and unravel Bojinka and several other attack plots against targets like Pope John Paul II and U.S. President Bill Clinton. Basit himself fled to Pakistan, where he was apprehended a short time later. This case serves to highlight the dangers presented by these labs to people in the vicinity — especially in a hotel or apartment building.
> 
> Another form of behavior that provides an opportunity to spot a bombmaker is testing. A professional bombmaker will try out his improvised mixtures and components, like improvised blasting caps, to ensure that they are functioning properly and that the completed device will therefore be viable. Such testing will involve burning or detonating small quantities of the explosive mixture, or actually exploding the blasting cap. The testing of small components may happen in a backyard, but the testing of larger quantities will often be done at a more remote place. Therefore, any signs of explosions in remote places like parks and national forests should be immediately reported to authorities.
> 
> Obviously, not every container of nitric acid spotted or small explosion heard will be absolute confirmation of bombmaking activity, but reporting such incidents to the authorities will give them an opportunity to investigate and determine whether the incidents are indeed innocuous. In an era when the threat of attack comes from increasingly diffuse sources, a good defense requires more eyes and ears than the authorities possess. As the New York Police Department has so aptly said, if you see something, say something.
> 
> Give us your thoughts on this report
> 
> Reprinting or republication of this report on websites is authorized by prominently displaying the following sentence, including the hyperlink to STRATFOR, at the beginning or end of the report.
> 
> "How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker is republished with permission of STRATFOR."
> 
> Read more: How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker | STRATFOR


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.




> U.S. lists Montreal mosque as al-Qaeda 'recruiting' place
> 26/04/2011 9:22:52 AM
> 
> CBC News
> 
> LINK
> 
> 
> 
> *The Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah Mosque in Montreal was among nine houses of prayer or Islamic institutes worldwide considered by the U.S. military to be places where "known al-Qaeda members were recruited, facilitated or trained," according to leaked classified American intelligence documents.*
> 
> According to the Pentagon's Matrix of Threat Indicators for Enemy Combatants, among documents from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, posted by the New York Times on Sunday, the other mosques or Islamic centres included:
> 
> - Abu Bakr Islamic University in Karachi, Pakistan.
> 
> - Makki Mosque, also in Karachi.
> 
> - Al Khair Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen.
> 
> - Dimaj Institute in Sadah, Yemen.
> 
> - Finsbury Park Mosque and Four Feathers Youth Club in the United Kingdom.
> 
> - Laennec Mosque in Lyon, France.
> 
> - Islamic Cultural Institute in Milan, Italy.
> 
> - Wazir Akbar Khan Mosque in Kabul, Afghanistan.
> 
> The Matrix of Threat documents were designed in the early days of the Guantanamo detention centre to guide military intelligence interrogators and analysts there as they tried to assess what detainees might have done in the past and what risk they might pose in the future, the Times said.
> 
> Several men who passed through the Montreal mosque in the late 1990s ended up detained outside of Canada, including in Guantanamo Bay, after the Sept. 11 attacks against the United States, the Globe and Mail reported Monday.
> 
> The most significant figure was Mohamedou Ould Salahi, an electrical engineer from Mauritania who, according to another leaked classified document, served as an imam at the Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah Mosque in Montreal for about a month.
> 
> A call to the mosque wasn't immediately returned on Monday evening.
> 
> According to the classified memo prepared by the U.S. Department of Defence in March 2008 and published Monday by the whistleblower website WikiLeaks, Salahi was an admitted al-Qaeda member with family ties to a senior member of the organization.
> 
> The U.S. intelligence document alleges Salahi, 40, was a leader of an al-Qaeda cell in Duisburg, Germany, and later the leader of the Montreal-based al-Qaeda cell that was responsible for the foiled millennium bombing plot targeting Los Angeles International Airport and possibly other U.S.-based targets.
> 
> The document also alleges that Salahi recruited three of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack highjackers and facilitated their training.
> 
> The memo concluded he should continue to be detained at Guantanamo because he is an admitted member of al-Qaeda who swore bayat (allegiance) to Osama bin Laden, trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, served as a key member of the organization's network in Europe and was prepared to be a martyr.
> 
> It says Salahi bounced around Europe in the 1990s, living and working in Germany, alleging his main responsibility was recruitment for al-Qaeda. He relocated along with his wife and family to Canada in 1999 when he had trouble extending his visa in Germany.
> 
> "Detainee obtained an immigrant landing visa from the Canadian government and on 26 November 1999, travelled to Montreal, CA, where he stayed with [Hosni] Mohsen, and made plans to study electrical engineering at the Polytechnic [de] Montreal.? While in Montreal, detainee became the imam at the al-Sunnah Mosque during the month of Ramadan, replacing the previous imam, who left for hajj (pilgrimage) to Saudi Arabia," the document stated.
> 
> In late December 1999, the Mounties questioned Salahi about Ahmed Ressam, the Algerian Montrealer who was arrested at the U.S.-Canadian border while trying to enter the U.S. with explosives, and became known as the "Millennium Bomber." It was alleged the two met sometime between Salahi's arrival in Canada and Ressam's arrest.
> 
> Salahi was assessed by the U.S. military to be "high" risk, posing a threat to the United States, its interests and allies if released without adequate rehabilitation - an assessment given to most of the 172 remaining Guantanamo detainees.
> 
> The U.S. intelligence documents also showed that about one-third of the 600 prisoners already transferred to the custody of other nations were also declared "high risk" before their transfers, the New York Times reported
> 
> They also make little mention of the harsh interrogation tactics used at Guantanamo, methods such as sleep deprivation and exposure to cold temperatures that drew criticism from around the world, the newspaper reported.
> 
> *Salahi disputes allegations, alleging abuse*
> 
> Salahi has acknowledged joining the mujahedeen in its fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
> 
> But he says he had no role in the millennium bomb plot and denies any association with al-Qaeda, the Taliban or their associates since 1992.
> 
> Salahi has tried unsuccessfully to obtain Canadian intelligence documents from the interviews the RCMP conducted with him in 2000, which he claims could corroborate his claim of abuse at the hands of his American captors.
> 
> The Supreme Court has refused to hear his case while the Federal Court of Canada ruled last year that he is not entitled to the information because he is neither a Canadian citizen nor subject to legal proceedings in Canada.
> 
> At the end of January 2000, Salahi went to visit his ailing mother in Mauritania, where he was detained on several occasions before authorities there turned him over to Jordanian authorities.
> 
> Eventually he was handed over to the U.S. military and later transferred in August 2002 to Guantanamo, where he continues to be held.
> 
> With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## 57Chevy

From eCanadaNow and Shared in accordance with provisions provided in The Copyright Act

Apr 27th, 2011
WikiLeaks: Montreal Mosque Was Al Qaeda Recruitment Center
http://www.ecanadanow.com/canada/2011/04/27/wikileaks-montreal-mosque-was-al-qaeda-recruitment-center/

The latest cache of WikiLeaks classified documents released on Sunday revealed that US military leaders considered a mosque in Montreal to be one of the top nine al Qaeda recruitment centers around the world. 

The leaked 17-page document, entitled “JTF-GTMO Matrix of Threat Indicators for Enemy Combatants,” was written in 2008 by the Defense Department to help intelligence officers assess immediate terrorist threats. 

The former imam of the mosque, Mohamedou Ould Salahi, was accused of being the leader of al Qaeda cells in Germany and then in Canada. He has been held at the Guantanamo Bay detention center for seven years, and has been trying, so far unsuccessfully, to get the Canadian Supreme Court to hear his accusations of abuse at the hands of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in 2000. 

The Mauritanian-born Salahi is also reported to have helped make travel and training arrangements for some of the September 11 bombers and to have met with Algerian Ahmed Ressam, the so-called “Millennium Bomber” who was arrested at the US-Canadian border and convicted of planning to blow up the Los Angeles International Airport in late December 1999. 

The Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah mosque was the only al Qaeda recruitment and training site listed in North America. The others are located in Britain, France, Italy, Yemen, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.
                          _______________________________
from Wikipedia:
Mohamedou Ould Salahi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi
---
He trained in an al Qaeda camp and swore bayat to al Qaeda in March 1991. Slahi returned to Germany soon after and then traveled to Afghanistan again for three months in early 1992. Slahi alleges that he "severed all ties with ... al-Qaeda" at that time. The U.S. government maintains that Slahi "recruited for al-Qaeda and provided it with other support" since then
---
                       _________________________
from last year
NEW YORK, Apr 12, 2010 
Judge Orders Man Once Labeled "Highest-Value Detainee" Released From Gitmo
http://www.alternet.org/rights/146425/judge_orders_man_once_labeled_%22highest-value_detainee%22_released_from_gitmo/

U.S. federal court has ordered the release of a Guantanamo prisoner once described as the "highest-value detainee at the facility" -- and set off a firestorm of protest from Republican lawmakers.
---


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *WORLD NEWS *
> 
> *Canadian's terror trial to hear closing arguments
> *
> Tuesday, June 7, 2011 | 2:38 PM
> Sympatico.ca News
> 
> LINK
> 
> *A U.S. court was set to hear closing arguments on Tuesday in the trial of a Canadian citizen accused in the United States of playing a crucial role in the 2008 Mumbai attacks.*
> 
> The presentations come after U.S. prosecutors presented extensive wiretap and surveillance evidence they allege connects Tahawwur Rana to both the Mumbai massacre, as well as an unexecuted plot to attack a Danish newspaper.
> 
> Rana, a 50-year old Pakistani-born businessman from Ottawa, has been on trial in a Chicago courtroom for three weeks on several counts of providing material support for terrorism.
> 
> Rana's lead attorney Charles Smith, a leading human rights lawyer, has argued the prosecution's case rests entirely on one witness - Rana's boyhood friend, Daood Sayed Gilani, who legally changed his name to David Headley.
> 
> Defence attorneys have tried to paint Headley as an untrustworthy witness and focused questioning on how Headley initially lied to the FBI as he pretended to co-operate, lied to a judge and even lied to his own family.
> 
> "All Mr. Smith has to do though of course is plant reasonable doubt in one juror's mind," the CBC's Bill Gillespie reported Tuesday from outside the courthouse.
> 
> But Gillespie also noted that since the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. federal prosecutors "have a 90 per cent success rate in getting convictions in terrorism cases."
> 
> On Monday, prosecutors played short video clips of statements from Rana, who had agreed to speak with FBI investigators for nearly six hours after his arrest.
> 
> Rana could be heard in the clips recounting names and affiliations of others charged in the case, including members of the Pakistani intelligence agency known as ISI and Lashkar-e-Taiba, the militant group blamed in the Mumbai attack.
> 
> But it was unclear from the statements whether Rana knew of the Mumbai plot ahead of time.
> 
> Rana emigrated from Pakistan to Canada in 1997, staying just long enough to become a Canadian citizen before moving to Chicago to open a branch of his successful immigration consulting business.
> 
> In Chicago, Rana renewed his friendship with Headley, who has confessed to being a Lashkar-e-Taiba member after agreeing to a deal with prosecutors to avoid the death penalty and extradition to India or Denmark.
> 
> Headley testified at the trial he conducted detailed surveillance on the Mumbai target while posing as a representative of Rana's company - and that Rana was in on the plot that killed more than 160 people, including two Canadians.
> 
> Headley has also testified he learned surveillance and intelligence techniques at training camps run by ISI agents and saw Pakistani army officers giving Lashkar fighters weapons training.
> 
> Rana did not testify in his defence.
> 
> With files from Bill Gillespie and The Associated Press


----------



## a_majoor

Worth looking into. This may be the real reason Anthony Weiner was under such pressure to resign:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/revealed-weiners-in-laws-secret-muslim-brotherhood-connections/?print=1



> *Revealed: Weiner’s In-Laws’ Secret Muslim Brotherhood Connections*
> Posted By Walid Shoebat and Ben Barrack On June 16, 2011 @ 11:14 am In Homeland Security,Opinion,Politics,US News | 60 Comments
> 
> Was Huma Abedin — wife of Anthony Weiner and deputy chief of staff to Hillary Clinton — unaware that her mother was reported as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood? Did Western media miss what has been revealed in several Arab newspapers and left secret in American government circles?
> 
> Al-Liwa Al-Arabi [1] (translated here [2]) claims to have leaked an extensive list, partially published by Al-Jazeera [3] and several other major Arab newspapers, that includes Huma’s mother, Saleha Abedin, in the Brotherhood’s secret women’s division — known as the Muslim Sisterhood or International Women’s Organization (IWO).
> 
> Information about the IWO can readily be found at the Muslim Brotherhood’s official website [4]. An excerpt from its goal, translated from the Arabic, states:
> 
> The Women Organization’s goal, in accordance with the Muslim Brotherhood rules, is to gain and acquire a unified global perception in every nation in the world regarding the position of women, and the necessity of advocacy work at all levels in accordance with the message of the Brotherhood, as written in Women in Muslim Society, and the rearing of women throughout the different stages of life [emphasis added].
> 
> The Egyptian paper Al-Dostor revealed that the Sisterhood includes 63 international members across 16 different countries — a claim confirmed by the Arab Center for Studies, headed by researcher Abdul Rahim Ali. [5]
> 
> Neither Huma nor any major Western media outlets even mention this bit of common knowledge in the Arab world.
> 
> But there is more. Also confirmed [6] by Arab sources is that Huma Abedin has a brother who works at Oxford University named Hassan Abedin. Oxford, which has long been infiltrated by Islamists who founded the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies [6] (OCIS), has Huma’s brother listed as a fellow [7] and partner with a number of Muslim Brotherhood members [8] on the Board — including al-Qaeda associate Omar Naseef [9] and the notorious Muslim Brotherhood leader Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi [10]. Both have been listed as OCIS trustees. [11] Naseef continues to serve as Board chairman. [12]
> 
> In 2009, Qaradawi’s role within Oxford [13] and the Muslim Brotherhood was championed [14] by the notorious Sheikh Rached Ghannouchi of Al-Nahda – a Muslim Brotherhood affiliate now active in Tunisia. OCIS has even presented an award [15] for great scholarly achievement to Brotherhood member Shaykh Abd Al-Fattah Abu Gudda, whose personal history goes back to the Brotherhood’s founder, Hasan al-Banna.
> 
> Even the Sunday Times acknowledges [16] that the cradle [17] of Islamic jihad — Al-Azhar University — actively attempts to establish links with OCIS, where Huma’s brother serves.
> 
> Was Huma unaware [18] of all this as she accompanied [19] Hillary Clinton to the Dar El-Hekma [20] women’s college in Saudi Arabia? Huma’s mother is co-founder and vice dean at the college and an active missionary on issues regarding Muslim women.
> 
> Another member listed as belonging to the Sisterhood mentioned by Al-Jazeera [3] is Suheir Qureshi. Alongside Huma’s mother, Saleha Abedin, as well as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who was brought in due to her connection with Huma, Qureshi spoke on issues of women in Muslim society. An Arabic news report [21] of what happened during [22] Hillary’s visit [19] stated that:
> 
> Suheir Qureshi spoke of how elated she was of Hillary’s historic visit…. Saleha Abedin spoke after Suheir Qureshi and beamed in the presence of Secretary Clinton. Saleha’s speech preceded the former first lady’s. Then Hillary stood. She donned a broad smile as she approached the podium….Clinton started with a strong word and she spent a long time complimenting Dr. Saleha Abedin regarding her daughter. Hillary explained that Huma holds an important and sensitive position in her office. She ended her speech by speaking of Saleha Abedin’s daughter (Huma), that a person must be happy if mentioned in a positive light but there is no happiness that equals the compliment given to children in front of a parent [emphasis added].
> 
> It is sacrilege in Islam for Huma’s mother to accept the reality that her daughter is married to a Jew. Yet neither Saleha nor Huma’s brother Hassan denounces her marriage to Weiner, especially when it was considered null and void [23] by some of the highest authorities [24] on Islamic Sharia rulings.
> 
> Huma’s brother has been key in furthering the Islamic agenda [25] and has worked with Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal on a program of “spreading Islam to the west.” A detailed report [9] from 2007 shows that Naseef was identified as the likely force behind the Abedin family’s departure from Kalamazoo, Michigan, to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, circa 1977 – the same year that the Muslim Sisterhood was established.
> 
> In 2008, Dr. Mumen Muhammad wrote about [26] why Huma vowed to stay with Hillary even if the latter were to lose the presidential nomination to Obama:
> 
> Abedin assures in press releases of her continuance on the path with Hillary Clinton, even if Clinton failed as a candidate. The candidate’s aides and other influential figures in the Democratic Party assure that they do not disregard Abedin running for election or taking her position in the political arena with the help in successive political administrations of the Clinton family itself [emphasis added].
> 
> Hillary Clinton signed a document [27] less than one month prior to her trip to Saudi Arabia with Huma that lifted the ban [28] on Tariq Ramadan, allowing him entry into the United States. (Ramadan is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hasan al-Banna [29], and has ties to Islamic terrorist groups.) The Clinton family played a key role in promoting Fethullah Gülen, the extremely powerful Turkish imam and notorious Islamist conspirator, as he fled Turkey for the United States after attempting to overthrow Turkey’s secular government. (He was indicted [30] on this charge in 2000.) In 2008, the former president heaped praise [31] on Gülen, giving him a clean slate. Gülen has been given refuge and has even had sermons aired on Turkish television during which he explained to his followers how to best seize power [32] from the Turkish government:
> 
> You must move in the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your existence until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe….Until that time, any step taken would be too early — like breaking an egg without waiting the full forty days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside [emphasis added].
> 
> Gülen expressed this sentiment in another sermon [33] as well:
> 
> The philosophy of our service is that we open a house somewhere and, with the patience of a spider, we lay our web to wait for people to get caught in the web; and we teach those who do [emphasis added].
> 
> Serving with Huma’s brother as an Oxford Centre trustee [11] is Abdullah Gül [34], Turkey’s president himself. He considers himself a follower of Fethullah Gülen, according to Wikileaks. [35]
> 
> Huma Abedin’s charm, family connections, and access to highly sensitive state secrets — as admitted by Hillary herself — can have significant consequences. What absolutely must be known is if this circle of public servants was made aware of all these ties to potential enemies of the state.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com
> 
> URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/revealed-weiners-in-laws-secret-muslim-brotherhood-connections/
> 
> URLs in this post:
> 
> [1] Al-Liwa Al-Arabi: http://hobaheba.blogspot.com/
> 
> [2] translated here: http://www.shoebat.com/blog/archives/1202
> 
> [3] Al-Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.net/Mob/Templates/Postings/NewsDetailedPage.aspx?GUID=666261C4-31C1-4DE3-86B5-FD0E84ACBE28
> 
> [4] official website: http://www.ikhwanhistory.org/index.php?title=%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F_%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F_%28%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%29&diff=87650&oldid=87648
> 
> [5] Abdul Rahim Ali.: http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=23185
> 
> [6] confirmed: http://alqumaa.net/vb//showthread.php?t=45524
> 
> [7] fellow: http://www.oxcis.ac.uk/fellows.html
> 
> [8] members: http://www.almktaba.com/book/picbook/book8/p16.html
> 
> [9] Omar Naseef: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1924323/posts
> 
> [10] Yusuf Qaradawi: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=822
> 
> [11] trustees.: http://globalmbreport.com/?p=2641
> 
> [12] Board chairman.: http://www.charityperformance.com/charity-details.php?id=12448
> 
> [13] within Oxford: http://ikhwanmisr.net/article.php?id=21082
> 
> [14] championed: http://www.ghannoushi.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=298:qaradawi
> 
> [15] an award: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?10813-Shaykh-Abd-Al-Fattah-Abu-Gudda
> 
> [16] acknowledges: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7099811.ece
> 
> [17] the cradle: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/sheikh-al-azhar-urges-jihad-against-terrorists.html
> 
> [18] unaware: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/huma-abedin-sucked-into-weiner-scandal/803127/
> 
> [19] accompanied: http://globalmbreport.org/?p=2242
> 
> [20] Dar El-Hekma: https://sisweb.daralhekma.edu.sa:8251/portal/page?_pageid=374,146513&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
> 
> [21] news report: http://www.mnfaa.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8889
> 
> [22] during: http://secretaryclinton.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/hillary-clinton-in-saudi-arabia/
> 
> [23] null and void: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=11439&CATE=1436
> 
> [24] highest authorities: http://www.farfesh.com/Display.asp?catID=119&mainCatID=117&sID=82834
> 
> [25] Islamic agenda: http://www.alriyadh.com/2006/02/22/article132831.html
> 
> [26] wrote about: http://www.syria-aleppo.com/news/1778.html
> 
> [27] signed a document: http://www.tariqramadan.com/US-Government-Lifts-Ban-on-Tariq.html
> 
> [28] lifted the ban: http://globalmbreport.org/?p=1956
> 
> [29] Hasan al-Banna: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1368
> 
> [30] indicted: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/sep/01/1
> 
> [31] heaped praise: http://www.youtube.com/user/turkishcenter
> 
> [32] seize power: http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition
> 
> [33] another sermon: http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition#_ftnref49
> 
> [34] Abdullah Gül: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6595511.stm
> 
> [35] Wikileaks.: http://leaksfree.com/2009/12/gulen-turkeys-invisible-man-casts-long-shadow/


----------



## GAP

Partner of alleged Canadian terrorist grapples with competing realities
JOSH WINGROVE EDMONTON— From Monday's Globe and Mail Sunday, Feb. 05, 2012
Article Link

When the Mounties came knocking one frigid January day in Edmonton, Aisha Rain thought it was a joke. So did her common-law husband. “Is this Candid Camera?” she recalls him asking.

It wasn’t, and her life has never been the same. Police had come that day, one year ago, to arrest her partner. “I remember thinking, like, this can’t be happening,” Ms. Rain says.

At issue was a clash between portraits of two men, worlds apart.

One was Sayfildin (Sayf) Tahir Sharif, 39, the contractor who Ms. Rain, a first nations woman, quickly fell in love with after they met in the summer of 2009. She converted to Islam to be with the man, an Iraqi Kurd who was granted Canadian citizenship in 2005. He became a father figure to her four children. They cooked, lived and prayed together in an Edmonton apartment.

The picket-fence image is at odds with the portrait of Faruq Khalil Muhammad ‘Isa, a man the U.S. Department of Justice alleges is a terrorist. The Justice Department alleges that a few months before meeting Ms. Rain, Mr. Sharif helped co-ordinate a suicide bombing attack in Iraq that killed five American soldiers; that he pledged his support for a war on America “1,000,000 per cent;” that he sent terrorists money.

It’s that man, they say, who has been posing under the alias of “Sayf” – Arabic for “sword.”
More on link


----------



## Nemo888

I'm thinking the Muslim terrorists are winding down and domestic terrorists are just getting started. I think politically motivated domestic born terrorists will be our bread and butter in the future. With the destruction of manufacturing the majority of the working class are becoming surplus. In only the last ten years American manufacturing has increased production by 30% but US jobs in manufacturing have dropped by over 30%. With automated factories competing against de facto slave labor in Asia and Africa the majority of our average Joe's will have no useful work. The combined erosion of useful labour and buying power for average Americans will marginalize a huge percentage of the population. The working class at one time was 70% of our capitalist economy. They made everything and bought everything. They matter less and less each year. Average US salary is 26k per year now and real buying power is dropping steadily. This will probably cause some extreme unrest in areas of severe economic hardship. Which will bring in tougher crackdowns on communities like Oakland. Which will lead to radicalization of certain susceptible members of that community. At least we already have all the infrastructure in place to look after this problem. I don't think it was a waste of money in the end.


----------



## Nemo888

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_, is why o0ur security services need to remain vigilant in both directions - in and out:
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10/21/quebec-woman-charged-with-trying-to-export-assault-rifle-parts-to-lebanon/
> 
> Many Lebanese and Syrians have settled in Montreal and have made common cause with domestic anti-Israel groups as well as pursuing their own "old country" political agendas.



 Soon borders will not be as big a problem as the internet. I was at The Pirate Bay torrent site(purely for educational purposes) and was looking at the new section for physical object 3D printing. You can download a model of a 1970 Chevelle hotrod for instance.  Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost. Then I remembered your story on weapon parts. If they get the tolerances a little tighter on metal printing we will be able to print things like full auto bolts for our legal AR's and longer mags from torrents we download off the internet. If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.

This is a picture of a torrent downloaded off the internet and printed locally. You get the idea.





P.S. No sign of Blender(3D modelling program) files on the darknet yet. But I am sure there are some networks working on it already.  The people who keep titles like "The Terrorist's Handbook: A practical guide to explosives and other things of interests to terrorists" circulating around the deep web will be on to this in no time.


----------



## Foxhound

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost.
> 
> If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.



So, how much is one of these printers that can print in 3-D with moly-steel gonna cost me?


----------



## wildman0101

Twistedcable,
Your so far outa your league you dont even know how to bat.
Noticed your profile. No Military exsperience. Nothing. PVT
response please candy a##.
Scoty B


----------



## jollyjacktar

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Soon borders will not be as big a problem as the internet. I was at The Pirate Bay torrent site(purely for educational purposes) and was looking at the new section for physical object 3D printing. You can download a model of a 1970 Chevelle hotrod for instance.  Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost. Then I remembered your story on weapon parts. If they get the tolerances a little tighter on metal printing we will be able to print things like full auto bolts for our legal AR's and longer mags from torrents we download off the internet. If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.
> 
> This is a picture of a torrent downloaded off the internet and printed locally. You get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bloody Hell!!  I never thought of this possibility.  I'm sure you are correct in your musings.  Some shithead, somewhere is trying as we type you can bet on it.
> 
> BTW, how much did the nice TPB ship cost you to print?
> 
> P.S. No sign of Blender(3D modelling program) files on the darknet yet. But I am sure there are some networks working on it already.  The people who keep titles like "The Terrorist's Handbook: A practical guide to explosives and other things of interests to terrorists" circulating around the deep web will be on to this in no time.


----------



## George Wallace

WOW!  Just WOW!  Talk about people with no common sense.  Not just the Muslims who came up with this ad, but the City councilors who didn't have it taken down.   (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Religious ad sparks transit fury
> 
> 
> The Canadian Times
> 05 Apr 2012
> 
> TORONTO - A Muslim advertisement stating "There is no god but Allah" has started a vigourous debate amongst Toronto transit riders and sparked a review from the Toronto Transit Commission Advertising Commission Group.
> 
> After five complaints were made, a working group including Coun. Karen Stintz has decided to allow the advertisement to remain in the Kennedy subway station.
> 
> "The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not," said TTC spokesperson Brad Ross. "It doesn't violate the Human Rights Code. We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion."



More on link.



> Religious ad on subway sparks controversy
> 
> 09/04/2012 7:30:00 AM
> by Nevil Hunt
> 
> *An ad promoting Allah will stay in place at a Toronto subway station despite complaints from the public.
> *
> 
> An ad stating "There is no god but Allah" inside a Toronto subway station has prompted at least five complaints, but it will stay right where it is.
> 
> A working group including a Toronto city councillor reviewed the ad in the Kennedy subway station and found it is in keeping with the Human Rights Code.
> 
> "We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion," said a Toronto Transit Commission spokesman. "The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not."
> 
> Given that the transit system is public, it makes no sense at all to allow ads that upset members of the public. If anything within the system makes users uncomfortable – the temperature, the noise or the ads on the walls – the TTC should do everything it can to fix the problem if it's not too expensive a proposition.
> 
> That means that air-conditioned bus shelter across the city would be nice but obviously would cost a fortune. Removing a poster that multiple riders find offensive costs the TTC and the taxpayer nothing.
> 
> The ad includes an offer of free Korans and Islamic books, which can't offend anyone. It includes a website and directions to a booth operated by the Islam Info Centre, which paid for the poster to be displayed in the subway station.
> 
> Disseminating information is fair game, but if the other words offend, the poster should come down.
> 
> The Toronto subway poster has drawn criticism from the Canada Family Action Coalition. The president of the coalition called it "an offensive ad to all non-Muslims," that is "saying all other faiths are illegitimate."
> 
> Religions by their nature are divisive. They set people up in different camps with their different opinions, and they also seek out new members.
> 
> And when one religious group puts on a push to convert, the other religious organizations can't help but feel threatened. In the case of the subway poster, that attempt to reach people of other faiths, or no faith, flies in the face of some people who want to protect the status quo.
> 
> Even the founder of the Canadian Muslim Congress said the ad goes too far. He said "There is no god but Allah" is a mistaken translation into English. He told a reporter that it should read, "There is no god but God."
> 
> That phrasing may well have caused less angst for people of other faiths and the Islam Info Centre should consider making that change to the poster, even if the TTC working group has allowed it to stay as is.
> 
> The transit commission is in a sticky spot because it has to try and make everyone happy. The commission must be even-handed which means there are two options: accept all ads and risk offending some riders or accept none at all.
> 
> Should the poster be removed? Would you feel the same way no matter which religion was being promoted?



More on link.


----------



## OldSolduer

Maybe we should put a billboard up that states " There is no true god but Thor!" or Zeus, or whatever god you want to make up.


But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?


Well, if the TTC spokesperson is to be taken at his/her word ....





> "We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion," said a Toronto Transit Commission spokesman. "The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not."


.... one would think it wouldn't be any problem at all.

It'll be interesting to see if a church tries to do the same thing elsewhere in the TTC system - then we'll see if an ad espousing one view on religion really can go up, regardless of complaints received.


----------



## Maxadia

> Given that the transit system is public, it makes no sense at all to allow ads that upset members of the public. If anything within the system makes users uncomfortable – the temperature, the noise or the ads on the walls – the TTC should do everything it can to fix the problem if it's not too expensive a proposition.



Anything?  So if users are uncomfortable with waiting for a driver to take a bathroom break, like this past week, perhaps the TTC should remove that privilege?

How is this any different from a Christian church putting up a poster saying "Christ died for your sins."??? Is that saying that any other religions not based on Christ are illegitimate?


----------



## OldSolduer

RDJP said:
			
		

> How is this any different from a Christian church putting up a poster saying "Christ died for your sins."??? Is that saying that any other religions not based on Christ are illegitimate?



The difference is that if you put up something that espouses Christianity, someone will complain vociferously and something will be done. But we are a tolerant nation, right?


----------



## Danjanou

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Maybe we should put a billboard up that states " There is no true god but Thor!" or Zeus, or whatever god you want to make up.
> 
> 
> But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?



Done  >


----------



## OldSolduer

Love it! I, by the way, am a Jedi. 

I just haven't been issued my light saber yet,  something about procurement....


----------



## GAP

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Done  >



Oh, they all got jobs with the NFL on the offensive line, and those that didn't cut it went to the WWF......


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Love it! I, by the way, am a Jedi.
> 
> I just haven't been issued my light saber yet,  something about procurement....



A true Jedi makes his own light sabre.


----------



## George Wallace

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> A true Jedi makes his own light sabre.



A true Jedi doesn't need a light sabre.  They have the 'Force'.


----------



## ArmyRick

Jim, 

If your a jedi, does that make Joe Jasper yoda? He was certainly small enough for it.


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> If your a jedi, does that make Joe Jasper yoda? He was certainly small enough for it.



No. A good Jedi Joe is.....but Yoda not he is.

Any more of those funny videos coming out?


----------



## ArmyRick

Yes. It will take awhile. I am looking at different scenarios.


----------



## a_majoor

The really frightening part about this story is how fast this person "flipped" from normal kid into Jihadi. Obviously there is much more to the story, it would be very interesting to discover where he actually came into contact with radical Islam, and what methods are being used to indoctrinate people into this cult:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/20/dagestan/



> *The Canadian who converted to jihad: Boxer turned militant killed in Dagestan*
> Stewart Bell | Aug 20, 2012 9:33 PM ET | Last Updated: Aug 21, 2012 11:40 AM ET
> More from Stewart Bell
> 
> In the video he shot inside his hut in the mountains of Dagestan last winter, William Plotnikov narrated as he panned from the black flag of jihad to three bearded rebels and their assault rifles.
> 
> Then he turned the camera on himself.
> 
> “I ask Allah that the next season he’ll give us the opportunity to kill as many kafirs [non-believers] as we can, just to shred them to pieces,” William said. “Allah is almighty.”
> 
> Watching the clip on the computer in his apartment north of Toronto last week, Vitaly Plotnikov looked both heartbroken and perplexed. It was hard for him to accept that this was his son.
> 
> “It’s just like a different person to me,” he said.
> 
> Russian security forces announced last month that they had killed William, a 23-year-old Canadian, during a gun battle in Dagestan. Since then, the Canadian government has been trying to verify the Russians’ account.
> 
> But in an interview with the National Post, Mr. Plotnikov confirmed William’s death and spoke for the first time about his son’s rapid transformation from Toronto teenager and champion boxer to Muslim convert and jihadist fighter.
> 
> What seemed to amaze Mr. Plotnikov most was how fast it all happened. His son only became interested in Islam in 2009, he said. Within a year, he had left Canada and by July he was dead. He had gone from convert to martyr in less than three years.
> 
> He is not the first radicalized Canadian to die under such circumstances, but he is believed to be the first Canadian convert to die fighting in the name of jihad— all the others having been born into their faith. His father said William became so radicalized he did not even consider the other Muslims he met to be true Muslims. He claimed that Canada and the U.S. were a source of evil for Muslims.
> 
> “How can the mind of a person be changed in such a short period of time?” Mr. Plotnikov asked inside the York Region apartment where he keeps William’s boxing medals in a copper trophy on a shelf.
> 
> Before moving to Canada, the family lived in Western Siberia, where Mr. Plotnikov worked for an oil company. An athlete himself, he introduced his son to boxing at age nine, and William went on to twice win the Russian youth championships.
> 
> After losing his oil company job, Mr. Plotnikov found work at a bank but he wanted more than Russia had to offer. He and his wife also wanted to make sure William got a good education, and they were concerned about the gangs that attracted some former Russian athletes, so they decided to fulfill a lifelong dream of emigrating to the West.
> 
> Mr. Plotnikov immediately felt at home in Toronto. Soon after arriving, he got a job stocking shelves at a Highland Farms supermarket on Dufferin Street. “I came as though I was born here,” he said, speaking through a Russian translator.
> 
> The move was more difficult for William. He was 15 and had left his friends. He could not understand why the boys at his new high school wore baggy pants and piercings, and he was turned off by the heavy drinking of the Russian expats he met.
> 
> Boris Gitman saw athletic potential in the lanky teen who turned up at his boxing club in Thornhill. “I was impressed. His coach in Russia did a good job,” said Mr. Gitman, who coaches at the European Boxing School.
> 
> Tall and skinny, William needed to work on his strength and endurance. “He was not physically strong but he was very, very talented.… Very smart,” Mr. Gitman added. “In boxing, it’s very important to be smart. He understood about boxing a lot and I just knew he needed a couple of years. From my experience I thought he would be a good Olympian.”
> 
> The coach dedicated himself to William and came to respect his parents. “I know that his father used to work hard, very hard. He did everything possible just to support his family,” Mr. Gitman said. “A very nice man.”
> 
> William began to win fights in Ontario. He won a silver medal at the 2006 Brampton Cup, and followed that by winning a club bout at Exhibition Place. He won another silver at the 2007 provincial championships in Windsor.
> 
> But by the time the Plotnikovs became Canadian citizens in 2008, William was drifting away from boxing. He tried Jujitsu, Aikido and Thai boxing. Mr. Gitman said the young athlete was struggling to adjust to Canada.
> 
> “Two of my sons came here almost at the same age and I know how difficult it was for them because they lost a lot of friends over there,” he said. “All their life was in Russia and, especially William, he had a good life over there.
> 
> “He came here and he sees that his parents are working somewhere, not a good position maybe. And like any kid he has some difficulties — language difficulties, to study at school, different culture, different everything.”
> 
> After graduating from high school, William enrolled in the international travel and tourism program at Toronto’s Seneca College. He also began asking life’s Big Questions. He reflected in his diary about human existence. He read the Bible, the Torah and the Koran.
> 
> Curious about why Muslims prayed five times a day, he decided to visit a Toronto mosque. “So he went to the mosque to clear that up and he just got caught up with a mullah who had very radical views,” his father said, although he does not know which mosque or cleric. “Islam on its own, it’s not a bad religion,” he added. “But like in any other case, the extremists are not always good.”
> 
> Before long, William was praying five times daily and fasting for Ramadan. He stopped shaving and eliminated pork from his diet. He became withdrawn and isolated from friends and family. “It wasn’t extremism but first of all his behaviour changed. He practically stopped communicating with us,” Mr. Plotnikov said.
> 
> His father tried talking to him.
> 
> “We’re Christians,” he said, but William countered that his mother’s family were ethnic Tatars, who had a tradition of Islam. His father explained that William had been baptized in a church. “You didn’t ask me, did you?” William responded.
> 
> Early in September 2010, Mr. Plotnikov and his wife returned from a Florida vacation and found a note on the table. It was from William. He said he was sorry and that he had gone to France for Ramadan.
> 
> “He just took $3,500 from the bank and left with it, and we ended up paying the debt for him,” Mr. Plotnikov said. “We waited for a week, two, one month, two months. Then we found out that he’s in Moscow.”
> 
> The family got word that William was staying there with a friend from Toronto who had grown alarmed by William’s hardening beliefs. “William started expressing his radical views, that basically from here he was already a ready-to-go, prepped fighter,” the father said. “He only was looking for a chance to get inside, into mujahed [jihadist] forces.”
> 
> From Moscow, William travelled by train to Dagestan. Sixteen hundred kilometres south of Moscow, Dagestan is a republic in the North Caucasus region of Russia. It shares a border with Chechnya, a notorious magnet for Islamist militants in the 1990s.
> 
> After Russia brutally crushed the Chechen insurgency, some rebels crossed into Dagestan, spreading jihadist ideology and calling for “holy war” — although the region has long practiced the moderate Sufi school of Islam.
> 
> Jihadist groups such as Shariat Jamaat formed to implement Islamic law throughout the North Caucasus, and began committing almost daily attacks on police and security forces, as well as government officials and moderate clerics. In March 2010, two suicide bombers from Dagestan attacked the Moscow metro during rush hour, killing 40.
> 
> Russia’s crackdown in response to the insurgency has been blamed for further inflaming the conflict. In its 2011 World Report, Human Rights Watch accused law enforcement and security agencies of torture, disappearances and extrajudicial killings.
> 
> The Dagestan conflict is driven mostly by local issues ranging from corruption and unemployment to the divide between traditional Sufi Islam and intolerant Salafi Islam. But it has drawn a handful of outsiders.
> 
> Probably the best known was Alexander Tikhomirov, alias “Said Buryatsky,” a Russian volunteer who was responsible for a 2009 train bombing that killed 26 and other attacks until his death in 2010.
> 
> “He converted and ended up becoming one of the most charismatic insurgents around, and he used a lot of audio lectures and the Internet to rally a following, especially among young people,” said Sabine Freizer, a North Caucasus analyst at the International Crisis Group. “He was really seen as a kind of white hero of the insurgency amongst young fighters.”
> 
> So when William arrived in Dagestan, there was already a precedent of converts fighting for the rebel forces. William lived in a village of about 3,000, called Utamysh, not far from Dagestan’s capital, Makhachkala, his father said.
> 
> Concerned after hearing about the radicalism William had expressed in Moscow, his father called the Russian Interior Ministry. He hoped the Russian authorities would stop William and explain the consequences of his actions. The Russians subsequently raided the house where William was staying and told him to go home. He returned to Moscow, but soon made his way back to Dagestan.
> 
> William did not communicate with his family at all during this time. But photos Mr. Plotnikov received from a local newspaper following his son’s death made clear what the Canadian was up to. They showed William standing in the leaf-carpeted mountains, posing guerrilla-style with other armed men.
> 
> He wore an olive windbreaker with a camouflage ammunition belt over top. He had one hand in his pocket and held an assault rifle in the air with the other. In another photo, he sat in the dark reading a pocket Koran with a headlamp.
> 
> Although it is unknown what, if any, attacks William took part in, during the months he spent in their company, the rebels killed dozens of police officers and soldiers in bomb and shooting attacks. In May, two suicide bombings, 15 minutes apart at a police roadblock, killed a dozen people in the capital.
> 
> “It’s not only that they were reading the Koran in the forest, they were attacking the forces, the troops, the military,” said Mr. Plotnikov, 58, who works for a Toronto-area produce company. “I have the movie.”
> 
> In the video file, also given to the family after William’s death, the young Canadian offered a brief glimpse of rebel life, showing food cooking on a wood stove and a man dressed in camouflage joking about the merits of his assault rifle.
> 
> “What do you do?” William asked a man sitting on a bunk (according to Mr. Plotnikov, that man was a Turkish national who fought in Chechnya and Afghanistan and, like the others, is now dead.)
> 
> “Terrorism,” he replied. “I kill kafirs.”
> 
> William then put the camera down and sat next to him.
> 
> “So this is the way we live and suffer,” William said. His hair was trimmed short and he wore a sleeveless black Adidas shirt that showed how gaunt he had become since leaving Canada.
> 
> “We have food to cook and eat, thanks to Allah. And also have brothers and try to do as much as we can for Allah. Kafirs, you’re not going to get what you expect. Allah is with us. He protects us. You don’t have a protector.
> 
> “We will kill you. We’re going to build plans against you. But no matter how many plans you make, nothing is going to succeed because whatever He described in His book is the truth. Allah is the truth,” he said. “All of you others are waste, garbage.”
> 
> When the video finished playing on his computer, Mr. Plotnikov opened an old photo of William wearing his athletic training clothes, looking like just another Canadian youth. “See and compare the way he was,” he said. “You see this is the way he became. It’s like two different things, the sky and the ground.”
> 
> Before midnight on Friday July 13, Russian troops ambushed a group of gunmen in the forests near Utamysh. The Russians had “received information about the possible movements” of insurgents, according to a Russian government news release.
> 
> During the ensuing firefight, several security personnel were wounded and one was killed. By morning, seven militants were dead, including two local faction leaders. Islam Magomedov, alias Hamster, headed the Sergokala jihadist group and had been wanted since 2010 for various attacks.
> 
> Also killed was Arsen Magomedov, who headed a jihadist group in nearby Izberbash and “was involved in numerous murders of law enforcement officers and a number of IED explosions on the railway.”
> 
> The other dead were named as Isa Dalgatov, Shamil Akhmedov, Amin Ibiyev, Magomedsaid Mamtov and William Plotnikov. The jihadist website Kavkaz called William a martyr. “May Allah reward all the brothers.”
> 
> The Plotnikovs thought it was an Internet scam when they started getting emails expressing condolences over their son’s death. Then they saw the news reports and realized it might be true.
> 
> It is uncertain how many Canadians have met similar fates. The Canadian Security Intelligence Service would not disclose how many Canadians have died fighting for foreign armed groups. It’s possible the agency does not know, since many have gone to countries with non-functioning governments, or where missile strikes leave little in the way of remains.
> 
> Studies on radicalization suggest that converts are particularly vulnerable to extremist ideologues, who prey on their ignorance and zeal. According to a study on the RCMP website, conversion “can create an emotional experience that is easy for radicalization agents to manipulate.” As newcomers to their beliefs, converts may also feel the need to prove themselves to the group, a New York Police Department study said.
> 
> “You see it’s just like the Christians,” Mr. Plotnikov said. “There are Catholics, there are Orthodox, there are Seven Day Adventists. The same thing in Islam. Islam has lots of movements. Whatever he chose, it was not approved by his friends. And he was told that, ‘You went the wrong way.’ But like it says, blessed are those who believe. So he was programmed. He knew where he was going, he knew the aims.
> 
> So this is what he did.”
> 
> Because William was not wanted for any major crimes, and had only been a member of the insurgent group, Russian authorities agreed to release his body and Mr. Plotnikov flew to Dagestan to collect his son’s remains.
> 
> He buried William in Utamysh according to local Muslim traditions. “Because he converted to Islam, he was fighting for them, he lived there for some time. That’s why I buried him there. We will try and maybe fly over there, maybe once a year.”
> 
> Between visits, he said, the villagers will tend to the gravestone. It is a simple marker, about the size of a book. Inscribed on it are William’s name, birth date, date of his death and the symbol of a crescent moon.
> 
> National Post
> sbell@nationalpost.com


----------



## jollyjacktar

Read the story yesterday.  While I can feel for his Father and the grief he must be feeling, the kid played with fire and reaped what he sowed.  I'm glad he did not get a chance to bring his roadshow back here.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Thought I felt tinge of sympathy for a sec. 

Turns out it was a cramp in my foot.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Where religion is strong it causes cruelty. Intense beliefs produce intense hostility.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Read the story yesterday.  While I can feel for his Father and the grief he must be feeling, the kid played with fire and reaped what he sowed.  I'm glad he did not get a chance to bring his roadshow back here.



I feel for the family. Him, not as much.


----------



## jollyjacktar

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/09/15/chicago-terrorism-car-bomb.html



> U.S. teen arrested in Chicago car bomb plot
> U.S. citizen from a Chicago suburb, was arrested Friday night in an undercover FBI operation
> The Associated Press
> Posted: Sep 15, 2012 7:58 PM ET
> 
> Undercover Federal Bureau of Investigation agents arrested an 18-year-old American man who tried to detonate what he was led to believe was a car bomb outside a downtown Chicago bar, federal prosecutors said Saturday.
> 
> Adel Daoud, a U.S. citizen from the Chicago suburb of Hillside, was arrested Friday night in an undercover operation in which agents pretending to be terrorists provided him with a phony car bomb.
> 
> The U.S. Attorney's Office in Chicago, which announced the arrest Saturday, said the device was harmless and the public was never at risk.
> 
> Daoud is charged with attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction and attempting to damage and destroy a building with an explosive.
> 
> Someone who answered a call to Daoud's home in Hillside on Saturday who said her name was Hiba and that she was Daoud's sister declined to discuss Daoud, the family or the arrest.
> 'We'd like to be left alone'
> 
> "We don't even know anything. We don't know that much. We know as little as you do," she said. "They're just accusations."
> 
> "We'd like to be left alone," she said.
> 
> No one answered the door of the two-story brick home later Saturday.
> 
> A next-door neighbour said he was shocked by the arrest, describing Daoud as a quiet boy who played basketball in the driveway with friends and calling his parents "wonderful" people.
> 
> "I heard maybe he had a little trouble in school," said the neighbor, 78-year-old Harry Pappas. "He was quiet, didn't talk much, but he seemed like a good kid."
> 
> Pappas said he saw a dozen unmarked cars drive up to the house Friday night and several agents go inside.
> 
> The FBI began monitoring Daoud after he posted material online about violent jihad and the killing of Americans, federal prosecutors said.
> 
> In May, two undercover FBI agents contacted Daoud in response to the postings and exchanged several electronic messages with him in which he expressed an interest in engaging in violent jihad in the United States or abroad, according to an affidavit by an FBI special agent.
> 29 potential targets
> 
> Prosecutors say that after being introduced to an undercover FBI agent who claimed to be a terrorist living in New York, Daoud set about identifying 29 potential targets, including military recruiting centers, bars, malls and tourist attractions in Chicago.
> 
> He is accused of settling on a downtown bar and conducting surveillance on it using Google Street View and visiting the area in person to take photographs.
> 
> Describing the target to the agent, Daoud said it was also a concert venue and next to a liquor store, according to the affidavit.
> 
> "It's a bar, it's a liquor store, it's a concert. All in one bundle," the document quotes him as saying. The affidavit said he noted that the bar would be filled with the "evilest people ... all the kuffars are there." Kuffar is the Arabic term for non-believer.
> 
> Shortly after 7 p.m. Friday, Daoud met in the suburb of Villa Park with the undercover agent who claimed to be from New York, and the two drove to downtown Chicago, where the restaurants and bars were packed with workers ringing in the weekend on a pleasantly warm evening. According to the affidavit, they entered a parking lot where a Jeep Cherokee containing the phony bomb was parked.
> 
> Daoud drove the vehicle and parked in front of a bar that was among the pre-selected targets, then walked a block away and attempted to detonate the device by pressing a triggering mechanism in the presence of the agent, according to the affidavit. He was then arrested.
> 
> The court documents do not identify the bar.
> Didn't walk away
> 
> Prosecutors said Daoud was offered several chances to change his mind and walk away from the plot.
> 
> The FBI has used similar tactics in other counterterrorism investigations, deploying undercover agents to engage suspects in talk of terror plots and then provide them with fake explosive devices.
> 
> In a 2010 case, a Lebanese immigrant took what he thought was a bomb and dropped it into a trash bin near Chicago's Wrigley Field. In a 2009 case, agents provided a Jordanian man with a fake truck bomb that he used to try to blow up a 60-story office tower in Dallas.
> 
> The affidavit said the Daoud was active in jihadist Internet forums and was accessing articles written by Anwar al-Awlaki, the U.S.-born radical cleric who became a key figure in the Yemen-based al-Qaeda offshoot known as al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.
> 
> Al-Awlaki was killed in a U.S. drone strike in Yemen last year.
> 
> In his communications with one of the FBI agents about possible targets, Daoud allegedly said he wanted to carry out an attack that would kill a large number of people.
> 
> "I wanted something that's ... massive; I want something that's gonna make it in the news," he wrote, according to the affidavit. "I want to get to like, for me I want to get the most evil place, but I want to get a more populated place."
> © The Associated Press, 2012
> The Canadian Press


----------



## GAP

Peer Khairi didn't like wife's demand for equal rights, trial hears
By Michele Mandel ,Toronto Sun Wednesday, October 17, 2012 
Article Link

Peer Khairi was miserable in Canada: the Afghan immigrant complained that he had no job, he couldn’t speak the language, his kids were becoming Westernized and his wife was no longer subservient.

“He told me his wife had changed,” recalled Neelab Subhani, a settlement counsellor at the Afghan Women’s Organization who met with Khairi in 2007. “He told me, ‘Here there is more rights for women.’ So his wife was saying he has to give her equal rights.”

In Afghanistan, women disobey the male head of their family at their peril. A year after he made those complaints, Khairi savagely butchered his errant spouse.

Randjida Khairi, 53, was killed in a bloodbath of rage on March 18, 2008 inside the family’s apartment on the West Mall. After her husband called 911, police found her petite lifeless body on a mattress drenched through with her blood, her throat slit so deeply that she was almost decapitated, her chest and back riddled with five plunging knife wounds.

Her husband of 30 years admits inflicting the horrific injuries on his second wife, but maintains he didn’t have the necessary legal intent for murder. In fact, it appears defence lawyer Christopher Hicks may argue Khairi was provoked into killing the 86-pound Randjida: He spent a mystifying time asking Subhani about phrases in Dari that were so “repulsive and profoundly insulting” for an Afghan that they “could not be ignored and you can’t walk away after saying them.”

Crown prosecutors Robert Kenny and Amanda Camara allege Khairi, 65, murdered his wife because she had become too permissive, too Canadian it seems, by allowing their six children to dress and date as they liked instead of maintaining his strict rules of their birthplace.

After leaving Afghanistan, the Khairis lived in India before moving to Canada in 2003. Khairi came to the Afghan Women’s Organization office in 2007 for help in filling out applications for Canadian citizenship. During their two-hour meeting, Subhani said he confided that unlike the rest of his family, he was finding it difficult to adjust to the new ways of this country.

“It was hard for him coming to Canada,” she recalled. “He said the kids are young, more open-minded, they would not listen to him.”

Not only were his disobedient children showing disrespect, so too was his wife with her newfound ideas about women’s equality. “He was sad a little bit,” Subhani recalled. “I could see deep down he’s not happy.”

Shortly before she was slain, Randjida was making confessions of her own.

Anisa Sharifi is another settlement counsellor from the Afghan Women’s Organization. She first met the family in 2006 to help them with their welfare applications and didn’t hear from them again until Randjida called her several months before she was killed.

“She told me she doesn’t want to be living with her husband anymore and asked me how to go through the process of separation,” Sharifi told Khairi’s second-degree murder trial.
More on link


----------



## OldSolduer

That's rich - he was provoked. What balderdash .....utter crap. 

It's not a defence IMO. Maybe his lawyer can house him ......


----------



## foresterab

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/30/bc-rebecca-rubin-eco-terrorism.html

Not the most recent of threads but the best location I could find for it:

B.C. 'eco-terrorism' suspect to plead guilty in U.S.
CBC News Posted: Nov 30, 2012 8:13 AM PT Last Updated: Nov 30, 2012 9:44 AM PT Read 28 comments28 
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Accused 'eco-terrorist' surrenders2:22Accused 'eco-terrorist' surrenders2:22  Facebook  
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A B.C. woman connected to what the FBI calls the largest case of domestic terrorism in U.S. history is expected to plead guilty to all but the most serious of 10 charges against her.

Rebecca Rubin, 39, turned herself in to U.S. authorities at the border in Blaine, Wash., on Thursday after working out a plea agreement for her part in a series of spectacular arsons more than a decade ago.

According to the FBI, the Canadian citizen was one of more than a dozen members of a cell of the Earth Liberation Front, a radical group that firebombed businesses and government buildings across five U.S. states in the name of defending the environment.

The charges against Rubin are related to the firebombing of wild horse corrals in Oregon and California, and setting fire to a ski resort in Colorado between 1996 and 2001.

No one was killed in the fires, but they did cause an estimated $40 million in damage.

In 2008, the FBI offered a $50,000 reward for tips leading to Rubin's arrest, noting she may have been living in Nelson, B.C. In 2009, the agency issued at second bulletin saying she might be in Vancouver.

Approached RCMP in 2009
Vancouver lawyer Ian Donaldson said Rubin approached him three years ago looking to turn herself in, but the RCMP did not seem too interested in arresting her.

Donaldson said his client was not taken into custody by the RCMP at that time. Instead she spent the next three years working out a plea agreement, according to her U.S. lawyer.

Donaldson did not say where Rubin had been living in Canada, but did say she decided to turn herself in to deal with the charges so she could move on with her life.

In 2008 and 2009 the FBI issued bulletins saying Rebecca Rubin was likely hiding out in B.C. (FBI)"She's certainly remorseful for her actions and feels ashamed of decisions she made. I think that as is the case with many people with the benefit of maturity you see some of your former actions very differently," Donaldson said.

Plea deal took 3 years
Rubin's Oregon lawyer, Rick Troberman, said working out Rubin's plea agreement with U.S. prosecutors took time.

"Rebecca has concluded — and rightfully so — it's time to put this matter behind her. I'm comfortable we will work out a reasonable deal."

Troberman said Rubin will plead guilty to all but the most serious charge of using a destructive device, which carries a mandatory 30-year prison term.

Oregon Assistant United States Attorney Stephen Peifer confirmed Rubin is co-operating with authorities.

"It's very significant that she's decided to co-operate and turn herself in," he said.

After making an appearance in U.S. District Court in Seattle on Thursday, Rubin is expected to be transferred in custody to Oregon to face trial.

10 co-conspirators sentenced already
In 2007, 10 of Rubin's co-conspirators were sentenced to prison sentences ranging from three to 13 years. Two were sent to special Communications Management Units (CMU) normally reserved for al Qaeda-type terrorists.

Rubin's U.S. lawyer said it is unlikely she will be sent to a CMU prison, where communication and visits are severely restricted, because of her plea agreement, but she can expect a similar sentence after she pleads guilty in Oregon to most of the charges.

Rubin is facing eight counts of arson in the Oct. 19, 1998, fires that destroyed Two Elk Lodge and other buildings at the Vail ski area in Eagle County, Colo.

She was also charged in California with conspiracy, arson, and using a destructive device in the Oct. 15, 2001, fire at the BLM Litchfield Wild Horse and Burro Corrals near Susanville, Calif.

Each count of arson and attempted arson carries a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in prison, up to a maximum of 20 years.

Use of a destructive device in relation to a crime of violence carries a mandatory consecutive sentence of 30 years in prison.

Conspiracy carries a maximum sentence of five years. Each count in the three indictments carries a potential fine of up to $250,000.


----------



## larry Strong

2 Canadians among militants killed in Algeria siege, reports say

This has not been confirmed by Ottawa yet.....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/21/algeria-hostage-canadians.html



> Algerian forces have found the bodies of two Canadian Islamist fighters at the remote gas plant that was the scene of a hostage-taking last week that has left at least 81 people dead, reports say.
> 
> Documents found on the bodies of two militants had identified them as Canadians, an Algerian security source told Reuters.
> 
> The Canadian government said Monday it's aware of reports that Canadians may have been involved in the four-day hostage situation at the Ain Amenas natural gas plant.
> 
> 'We are pursuing all appropriate channels to seek further information and are in close contact with Algerian authorities.'—Department of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Chrystiane Roy
> 
> "We are pursuing all appropriate channels to seek further information and are in close contact with Algerian authorities," Department of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Chrystiane Roy told CBC News on Monday.
> 
> "Canada condemns in the strongest possible terms this deplorable and cowardly attack and all terrorist groups which seek to create and perpetuate insecurity in the Sahel countries of West Africa."
> 
> Death toll rises past 80
> 
> Authorities said the takeover was carried out Wednesday by 32 men from six countries, under the command from afar of the one-eyed Algerian bandit Moktar Belmoktar, founder of the Masked Brigade, based in Mali.
> In this image made from video, individuals believed to be hostages kneel in the sand with their hands in the air at an unknown location in Algeria. (Ennahar TV/Associated Press)
> Armed with heavy machine-guns, rocket launchers, missiles and grenades, the militants singled out foreign workers — from countries including Japan, Britain, the Philippines and Romania — at the plant, killing some of them on the spot and attaching explosive belts to others.
> 
> Algerian forces stormed the gas plant on Saturday, bringing the four-day hostage situation to a violent end. Algerian authorities began searching the refinery for explosive traps left behind by the attackers and found dozens more bodies. At least 25 more bodies were found Sunday, but many were so badly disfigured that it was unclear whether they were hostages or militants, a security official said.
> 
> At last count, at least 32 Islamist militants and 23 hostages were killed, according to the Algerian government.
> 
> Confirmed dead so far include:
> Six from the Philippines.
> Three from Britain.
> Two from Romania.
> One each from the U.S. and France.
> 
> Many hostages remain unaccounted for, including 10 Japanese workers, according to their employer JGC Corp.
> 
> Five Norwegian employees of Statoil are still missing, the energy company said Sunday, and the U.K. government said three other Britons are still missing and feared dead.
> 
> Four Filipino workers are unaccounted for, said a government spokesman in Manila, and two Malaysians are missing, its government said.
> 
> The number of possible American hostages is still unclear. One Texan is dead, the U.S. has confirmed. The militants at first said they were holding seven American hostages, but there has been no official confirmation if any Americans are unaccounted for.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> 2 Canadians among militants killed in Algeria siege, reports say
> 
> This has not been confirmed by Ottawa yet.....
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/21/algeria-hostage-canadians.html



At least they won't get a second chance to cause trouble, wherever they're from.


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## OldSolduer

No sympathy for them, if this is true.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another tidbit of info via Reuters wire service....


> The Islamist attack on the sprawling desert gas complex in southern Algeria that triggered one of the worst hostage crises in years was conceived in Mali and coordinated by a mystery Canadian named only as Chedad, the Algerian prime minister said.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal said the plot had been hatched in war-ravaged Mali and the attackers had traveled through Niger and Libya before slipping into Algeria.
> 
> The jihadists were said to come from Egypt, Mauritania, Niger, Tunisia, Mali, Algeria and, in one case, from Canada. The Canadian, identified initially as Chedad, was coordinating the raiders, Sellal said ....


----------



## a_majoor

And the National Post reports:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/21/two-canadians-explosives-experts-and-a-leader-who-ordered-a-mass-execution-among-terrorists-who-seized-algerian-gas-plant/



> *Two Canadians, explosives experts and a leader who ordered a ‘mass execution’ among terrorists who seized Algerian gas plant*
> 
> MAR OUALI and KARIM KEBIR, Associated Press | Jan 21, 2013 6:46 PM ET
> More from Associated Press
> 
> Anis Belghoul / The Associated PressAlgerian firemen carry a coffin containing a person killed during the gas facility hostage situation at the morgue in Ain Amenas, Algeria on Monday.
> 
> The hostage-taking at a remote Algerian gas plant was carried out by 30 militants from across the northern swath of Africa and two from Canada, authorities said. The militants, who wore military uniforms and knew the layout, included explosives experts who rigged it with bombs and a leader whose final order was to kill all the captives.
> 
> The operation also had help with inside knowledge – a former driver at the plant, Algeria’s prime minister said Monday.
> 
> 
> The Associated PressThe damaged natural gas plant after Islamist militants attacked it and took hostages at Ain Amenas, Algeria.
> In all, 38 workers and 29 militants died, the Algerian prime minister said Monday, offering the government’s first detailed account of four days of chaos that ended with a bloody military raid he defended as the only way possible to end the standoff. Five foreigners are still missing.
> 
> “You may have heard the last words of the terrorist chief,” Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal told reporters. “He gave the order for all the foreigners to be killed, so there was a mass execution, many hostages were killed by a bullet to the head.”
> 
> Monday’s account offered the first Algerian government narrative of the standoff, from the moment of the attempted bus hijacking on Wednesday to the moment when the attackers prepared Saturday to detonate bombs across the sprawling complex. That’s when Algerian special forces moved in for the second and final time.
> 
> All but one of the dead victims – an Algerian security guard – were foreigners. The dead hostages included seven Japanese workers, six Filipinos, three energy workers each from the U.S. and Britain, two from Romania and one worker from France.
> 
> The prime minister said three attackers were captured but did not specify their nationalities or their conditions or say where they were being held.
> 
> He said the Islamists included a former driver at the complex from Niger and that the militants “knew the facility’s layout by heart.” The vast complex is deep in the Sahara, 800 miles (1,300 miles) south of Algiers, with a network of roads and walkways for the hundreds of workers who keep it running.
> 
> The attackers wore military uniforms, according to state television, bolstering similar accounts by former hostages that the attackers didn’t just shoot their way in.
> 
> “Our attention was drawn by a car. It was at the gate heading toward the production facility. Four attackers stepped out of a car that had flashing lights on top of it,” one of the former hostages, Liviu Floria, a 45-year-old mechanic from Romania, told The Associated Press.
> 
> Related
> Two Canadians among terrorists in Algeria ‘inside job’ siege of gas plant, PM says
> Two Canadians among terrorists in Algeria ‘inside job’ siege of gas plant, PM says
> Death toll in Algerian terrorist siege rises to 81 as 25 more bodies found in gas plant
> Bloody special forces raid ends Algeria gas plant hostage standoff; death toll could rise
> The militants had said during the standoff that their band included people from Canada, and hostages who had escaped recalled hearing at least one of the militants speaking English with a North American accent.
> 
> The Algerian premier said the Canadians were of Arab descent. He further said the militant cell also included men from Egypt, Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Tunisia, as well as three Algerians. Officials in Canada could not confirm that any of the attackers were from there.
> 
> 
> The Associated PressMilitary uniforms displayed for the media after Islamist militants attacked the natural gas plant and took hostages at Ain Amenas, Algeria.
> “The announcement of the Algerian prime minister is fine, but we need verification. It could be a forged document. We need to confirm,” said a Canadian official who was not authorized to speak publicly and requested anonymity.
> 
> Three Americans died in the attack and seven made it out safely, a U.S. official in Washington said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly. The bodies have been recovered, the official said.
> 
> An earlier report from an Algerian security official that as many as 80 people had died in the assault – including hostages and attackers – appears to have overstated the toll, but the official had cautioned that many bodies discovered during a sweep of the facility were badly disfigured, making it difficult to reach a total.
> 
> Algeria has not reported any military deaths from four days of confronting the fighters. Algerian authorities are typically reluctant to announce military losses.
> 
> 
> Handout / AFP / Getty ImagesAn undated handout picture released by the BP petroleum company on January 16, 2013, shows their operation at the In Amenas field in the Sahara desert, 1,300 kilometres southeast of Algiers, close to the Libyan border. A military operation was ongoing Thursday at the Algerian gas plant where Islamist gunmen were holding dozens of Western hostages, the governments of Britain, France, and Norway said on January 17, 2013.
> The attack began early Wednesday with the attempted hijacking of two buses filled with workers outside the complex. Repelled by Algerian forces, the militants moved on the main complex, armed with missiles, mortars and bombs for their three explosives experts, said Prime Minister Sellal. They split into two groups, with one infiltrating the complex’s living quarters and the other the gas plant.
> 
> Sellal praised the quick wits of a guard who tripped an alarm that stopped the flow of gas and warned workers of an imminent attack.
> 
> “It was thanks to him that the factory was protected,” he said.
> 
> Floria, the former hostage from Romania, remembered the moment when the power was cut.
> 
> “I ran together with other expats and hid under the desks in my office, locking the door. Attackers went scanning the office facility kicking the doors in. Luckily our door did not break and they went on to other offices,” he said. “Locals were freed, the attackers made clear from the beginning that only foreigners were a target. Expats were detained.”
> 
> 
> Algerie TV / The Associated PressIn this image taken from Algerian TV broadcast on Sunday, showing what it said was the aftermath of the hostage crisis at the remote Ain Amenas gas facility in Algeria.
> “The perception of time changes. Seconds become hours. You feel you are losing your mind. I went through this for almost 40 hours,” he said.
> 
> The prime minister said the heavily armed militants had prepared the attack for two months. He said the attackers arrived from northern Mali and had planned to return there with the foreign hostages. Seven French citizens taken hostage in recent years are thought to be held by al-Qaida linked groups in northern Mali.
> 
> Sellal justified the helicopter attack Thursday on vehicles filled with hostages out of the fear the kidnappers were attempting to escape.
> 
> In a statement, the Masked Brigade, the group that claimed to have masterminded the takeover, has warned of more such attacks against any country backing military intervention in neighboring Mali, where the French are trying to stop an advance by Islamic extremists. Algeria, despite its government’s reservations about the French decision, is allowing French jets to overfly.
> 
> 
> ANI/HandoutMokhtar Belmokhtar - The daring raid on the BP facility at In Amenas was carried out in the name of Belmokhtar, who lost his left eye in combat and has been reported dead at least twice, most recently in June.
> Col. Thierry Burkhard, the French military spokesman, said he did not know if militants in Mali were aware of the events in Algeria.
> 
> “However, I’m convinced the terrorist groups in the field have radios, so there’s a strong chance that they’re not only up to date with what’s happening in Algeria but they’re listening to everything that Western journalists are saying about the deployment of different forces in the field,” he said.
> 
> The militants’ operation was led by an Algerian, Amine Benchenab, who was known to security services and was killed during the assault, Burkhard added.
> 
> Moktar Belmoktar, who is believed to have orchestrated the attack, said in a statement over the weekend that the Algerian site was chosen after the country opened its airspace.
> 
> Sellal said negotiating was essentially impossible.
> 
> “Their goal was to kidnap foreigners,” he said. “They wanted to flee to Mali with the foreigners, but once they were surrounded they started killing the first hostages.”
> 
> He said the assault by Algerian special forces on the plant on Saturday that killed the last group of militants and hostages came after the kidnappers attempted to destroy the complex: “They led us into a real labyrinth, in negotiations that became unreasonable.”
> 
> Associated Press reporters Paul Schemm in Rabat, Morocco, Lori Hinnant and Sarah DiLorenzo in Paris, Bradley Klapper in Washington, Rob Gillies in Toronto, and Nicolae Dumitrache and Vadim Ghirda in Pitesti, Romania, contributed to this report


----------



## The Bread Guy

A reminder from a think tank analyst writing for the BBC:


> .... Since 2008, when Canada's anti-terrorism legislation recorded its first conviction, there has been a steady increase in the number of terrorism-related arrests and prosecutions.
> 
> Over two dozen Canadians have been arrested or indicted on terrorism-related crimes in Canada and abroad, the vast majority inspired by al-Qaeda.
> 
> Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), said last year that it was monitoring 250 people suspected of being involved in terrorism, up from 200 in 2010, and it was spending just under half of its $514m (£326m) annual budget on counter-terrorism.
> 
> A "massive, massive effort" for a country with a population of 34 million people, according to CSIS Director Richard Fadden ....


----------



## a_majoor

A look at how Canadians are being radicalized. If the insights in the article are true, then there are perhaps some openings to interrupt the process of conversion, or otherwise break the cycle. Prevention is always easier than having to play "whack a mole" with dedicated converts to some warrior cult:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/08/joining-the-world-of-radical-islam-extremism-offers-troubled-young-canadians-a-reason-to-feel-superior/



> *Joining the world of radical Islam: Extremism offers troubled young Canadians a reason to feel superior*
> 
> Stewart Bell | Feb 8, 2013 8:27 PM ET | Last Updated: Feb 8, 2013 8:32 PM ET
> More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP
> 
> Two years ago, an Australian police officer named Joe Ilardi arrived in Toronto to try to answer a disturbing question: what was turning some young Canadians into raving Islamists who yearned to wage anti-Western violence at home and abroad?
> 
> With the help of the RCMP, Senior Sgt. Ilardi interviewed seven young Toronto men he defined as “Canadian Muslim radicals.” All but one, an immigrant from Pakistan, were Canadian-born. Four had converted to Islam, including a former Mohawk Warrior.
> 
> After meeting the men several times for up to six hours in total, Sgt. Ilardi came to an unconventional conclusion: while they had bought into the narrative that justifies violence as a response to the West’s so-called “war on Islam,” they had done so largely for personal reasons.
> 
> They were not the downtrodden seeking political justice. Rather, they were deeply troubled youths who had found, in extremism, a reason to feel superior. In their minds, they had joined an exclusive fraternity that knew the truth. They weren’t losers after all; they were better than everyone else.
> 
> “The appeal of an ideology which replaced feelings of inferiority with superiority, or which provided clarity of purpose where previously there was only purposelessness, for some men, seemed irresistible,” noted Sgt. Ilardi, a member of the Counter-Terrorism Coordination Unit of the Melbourne-based Victoria Police.
> 
> His conclusions on how they become infatuated with jihadist ideology offer insights into a problem that is putting Canadians at risk and damaging Canada’s international reputation as more Canadian terrorists are identified overseas — most recently in Bulgaria and Algeria.
> 
> This week, a suspected Canadian member of the Lebanese terrorist group Hezbollah was blamed for the July 18, 2012 bombing of a bus full of Israeli tourists on their way to the Black Sea coast. An Australian is also suspected of involvement. Six died in the blast.
> 
> Two weeks ago, Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalik Sellal said a pair of Canadians were involved in last month’s siege at the In Amenas gas plant that left 38 workers dead. Witnesses told reporters one of the attackers was a blonde-haired Canadian, possibly of Chechen origin.
> 
> The RCMP is investigating but has not yet publicly confirmed any of the attackers were Canadians. “Canadian officials are on the ground in Algeria working with Algerian officials to get the necessary information,” Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird’s spokesman, Rick Roth, said Friday.
> 
> Another Canadian, William Plotnikov, a former Toronto boxer and Seneca College student, was killed by Russian security forces in Dagestan last July while fighting with Islamist rebels. He had become radicalized by a Toronto imam after converting, according to his father.
> 
> Canadian volunteers have been turning up in Somalia as well. In 2009, a half-dozen Somali-Canadians youths left to join the al-Qaeda-linked Al Shabab. In 2011, a 25-year-old was arrested at Toronto’s Pearson airport as he was allegedly leaving to join.
> 
> “CSIS is aware of at least 45 Canadians, possibly as many as 60, many in their early twenties, who have travelled or attempted to travel from Canada to Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen to join al Qaeda-affiliated organizations and engage in terrorism-related activities,” Richard Fadden, the Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, testified last April.
> 
> Related
> Terrorists responsible for Bulgaria bus bombing hiding in same country: senior official
> Bulgaria bus bombing suspect had real Canadian passport, lived in B.C. before return to Lebanon at age 12
> ‘Left-wing extremists,’ anti-government Freemen among Canada’s top domestic terror threats, report reveals
> Islamist extremists radicalizing Canadians at ‘a large number of venues,’ secret report reveals
> As convicted terrorists face possible release, Canada faced with growing problem: how do you rehabilitate them?
> The flow of wide-eyed Canadians to overseas hotspots, and fears they could return to carry out attacks at home, led to the introduction of legislation last year specifically making it illegal to leave Canada with the intent of committing terrorism.
> 
> Like Canada, Australia has not been successfully attacked on its soil, but it has been experiencing similar problems with radicalization — which prompted Sgt. Ilardi’s trip to Canada between March and June 2011. While he is still finalizing his research paper for publication, he shared his findings with the National Post.
> 
> Seven may be a small sample size from which to draw conclusions, but Sgt. Ilardi has credentials. A police officer for two decades, he has been working in counter-terrorism for 10 years and has a PhD in the role of intelligence in counter-terrorism. He is part of a team studying radicalization at Monash University in Melbourne.
> 
> His analysis of the Canadian extremists he met identified explanations that run counter to the stereotype that depicts extremists as inevitable products of the injustices of the Western world. In fact, he said most of the interviewees were politically unaware before they were indoctrinated into radical Islam.
> 
> Certainly, they were not living the Canadian dream. They had come from broken homes, and had drug, alcohol and gambling addictions. Some had been imprisoned for violent crimes. One had converted to Islam moments after he had intended to take his own life.
> 
> What extremism gave them was a perch from which to look down on other Canadians as ignorant and misguided. “These feelings were in stark contrast with those typically experienced by these men prior to their immersion in the world of radical Islam,” Sgt. Ilardi said.
> 
> A 2009 paper on radicalization, published on the RCMP website, came to a somewhat similar conclusion, noting extremism provided followers with “a means of explaining the world but — just as importantly — with a sense of personal meaning and a cause for which to fight.”
> 
> Ever since the 9/11 attacks, Canadians have been puzzling over the motives of the extremists among them, from the Khadrs and Ontario al-Qaeda member Mohammad Jabarrah to Ottawa’s Momin Khawaja and the Toronto 18. In 2010, three men were arrested in Ontario over an alleged plot to conduct attacks in Canada.
> 
> The latest case involves an unnamed Lebanese who moved to Vancouver with his parents at the age of eight. Although he left Canada four years later, he had by then acquired a Canadian passport. Last June, he allegedly used it to enter Bulgaria to conduct a bombing for Hezbollah.
> 
> The limited time he spent in Canada suggests he was radicalized in Lebanon, but as a Canadian citizen, he could have returned at any time. Instead, he allegedly chose to use his Canadian passport to kill tourists in Europe.
> 
> The Canadians interviewed by Sgt. Ilardi were also eager to engage in violence. They wanted to fight abroad. Significantly, they didn’t. They were deterred by the arrests of other extremists, or came to realize the error of their ways, in some cases when the anti-Western narrative they had been spoon-fed failed to match their positive interactions with Canadians.
> 
> “Just as personal relationships proved instrumental in these men’s radicalization,” Sgt. Ilardi noted, “so too were they in helping individuals reassess and recalibrate the theological and practical implications of engaging in jihad.”
> 
> National Post
> 
> • Email: sbell@nationalpost.com | Twitter: StewartBellNP


----------



## Journeyman

Interesting article.  

I think Stewart Bell is one of the few credible Canadian 'journalists' in this field. He seems to "do his homework" rather than just skew cherry-picked tidbits to fit a preconceived agenda.


----------



## jollyjacktar

IIRC many of the 70's terrorists in Europe such as Carlos "the Jackal" came from pretty good backgrounds too.  That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Not exactly a new angle for those that have seriously studied terrorism in first world countries...but a fact based position that never seem to find favour with the press and politicians.

I guess it's because doing something about it would be a huge undertaking with little to actually report on or show up as a result.

For anyone interested in more on the same topic, I highly  recommend Harvard Professor Louise Richardson's "What Terrorists Want - Understanding the Ennemy, Containing the Threat", 2006, Random House, New-York.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> IIRC many of the 70's terrorists in Europe such as Carlos "the Jackal" came from pretty good backgrounds too.  That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.


You are correct. A number of terrorists did come from middle to upper class families.


----------



## Edward Campbell

And more on this, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/canadas-looking-for-terrorists-in-all-the-wrong-places/article8410607/
My emphasis added


> Canada’s looking for terrorists in all the wrong places
> 
> DOUG SAUNDERS
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Saturday, Feb. 09 2013
> 
> Somewhere in Canada today, someone is making plans to set off a bomb that will kill as many people as possible.
> 
> We can be fairly certain of this. The past month alone saw three Canadians accused of helping carry out acts of terrorism, two in Algeria and one in Bulgaria. While Canada has very low rates of domestic terrorism and violent extremism, those rates are not zero. There are believed to be several dozen Canadians actively involved with violent Islamist groups. Someone, almost certainly, is planning the next explosion.
> 
> That leads to two questions: How do we find him? And how do we prevent such violent extremists from being created on (or imported onto) Canadian soil?
> 
> We now have far better answers than we did a few years ago. In fact, we have a very clear picture of what makes people into violent radicals – and what doesn’t.
> 
> This week, a large-scale research report by Canada’s spy agency, obtained by Globe and Mail reporter Colin Freeze, reveals that much of what we tend to believe is wrong. In A Study of Radicalization: The Making of Islamist Extremists in Canada Today, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service analyzes data on all known Canadian extremists.
> 
> They are almost always native-born Canadians, rarely immigrants, and never refugees. They tend to have “a high level of academic achievement,” often a university degree, especially in “scientific, computer and engineering fields.”
> 
> Not only are they not immigrants, but they don’t tend to be found within “parallel society” immigrant enclaves. “None appeared to have been marginalized within Canadian society,” CSIS says, and the great majority appear “highly integrated into Canadian society.” And they aren’t radicalized by attending a mosque.
> 
> This report’s findings are virtually identical to those of several larger studies conducted recently. Britain’s MI5 analyzed several hundred violent extremists and found similar non-immigrant (or convert) backgrounds – and that, as in Canada, these terrorists don’t come from religious backgrounds. “Most are religious novices,” the security service concluded, and, in fact, “there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalization.”
> 
> Likewise, Mark Fallon, a former U.S. counterterrorism officer, found that migration experiences, religious traditions and theology almost never caused radicalism; it was a matter of local, personal influences persuading people to believe a political narrative.
> 
> There are important conclusions we can draw from these findings. The first is that immigrants, and immigrant communities, have little directly to do with terrorism. They are among those very unlikely to become radicalized. It’s not a matter of people bringing foreign attitudes and beliefs to Canada; extremists gained their political ideas here, often from local influences.
> 
> As a result, revoking the citizenship of people convicted of terrorism – as Immigration Minister Jason Kenney proposed this week – will do little to combat or deter extremism. Nor will spying on communities of ordinary religious Muslim immigrants, as the New York Police Department admitted it had done for six years (and it didn’t find a single piece of actionable evidence after investigating thousands of people). As the CSIS report grimly concludes, it’s not that easy.
> 
> Second, this isn’t a matter of religion causing extremism. Yes, Islamic terrorists are, by definition, very religious, but they usually adopt this religion after becoming radicalized politically. The path from strict religious faith to violence simply doesn’t exist – in fact, the most religious are among the least likely to become extremists.
> 
> This is a political movement based on a territorial claim (what CSIS calls the “common narrative,” which involves securing the “land of Islam” and attacking those who invade or humiliate it). As such, it has more in common with earlier terrorist movements (the IRA, the FLQ) than it does with any widespread beliefs within diaspora communities.
> 
> This doesn’t make things easy for police or governments. It’s a criminal tendency, neither imported nor theological, not rooted in communities or faiths. At the very least, we now know where we shouldn’t bother looking.




But, Doug Saunders is wrong ... while I agree that religion doesn't, normally, cause extremism, Islamic terrorists, as Saunders himself points out, _"are, by definition, very religious ... they usually adopt this religion after becoming radicalized politically."_ Being very religious they will seek out mosques that support their radical ideas and that is one of the places where the security services should look.

Saunders is flogging an idea and a book, _The Myth of the Muslim Tide_, that have some basis in fact but are, at their root, fed more by politically correct, ideological hope than real research.


----------



## Robert0288

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.



Sounds very similar to the 'professional' protester I ran into at universities.  These are the same people who seemed to latch onto occupy movement, G7/G8 protests, Student riots in quebec last summer, and even the idle no more movement.  I'm definitely NOT saying that these are terrorists.  But rather the same base of people in terms of age, socio-economic status and education  which appear to be the most easily radicalized into political groups regardless of the groups political outlook.  (eg; left wing, right wing, religious, environmental etc...)



> For anyone interested in more on the same topic, I highly  recommend Harvard Professor Louise Richardson's "What Terrorists Want - Understanding the Ennemy, Containing the Threat", 2006, Random House, New-York.


Thanks I'll take a look at it.


----------



## Old Sweat

And the same segment of society spawned many of the radicals of the sixties and the terrorist groups of the seventies. There must be something, perhaps it is a sense of injustice for having so much while others have so little or maybe just boredom or perhaps being over-educated and under-challenged, that led many to social activism and a very few to gravitate to extreme points of view and action.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Having been to numerous Mosques here, I think I will disagree with some of the report. There are immigrants here that are bidding their time and work slowly and carefully on grooming people for radical Islamist groups. As membership in these "closed clubs" is limited to people with  I suspect CSIS has a harder time penetrating them then they would like to admit. I also suspect that Canada, like Malaysia offers to many other benefits to radical groups for them to attack here. That may change at some point. But for the moment they don't like to poop in their own bed. I do agree that the people the radicals target for long term grooming and recruitment are likely the more educated as that makes them a high value commodity. Far better to recruit fighters from places where life is hard and people are tough. The recruited Canadians will be planners, builders, logistical support and technical support types.


----------



## kevincanada

I once told a Muslim man from Pakistan that I can't stand catholicism.  Boy did that peak his interest and I got a ear full too  ;D

Here is the original report on the MI5 findings.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1


----------



## jollyjacktar

A good article from the SOMNIA website.  Shared under the provisions of Sec. 29 of the Copyright Act.



> Cree jihadist: How a boy from a Saskatchewan reserve came to embrace Islamist extremism
> 
> Stewart Bell | Feb 22, 2013 9:06 PM ET | Last Updated: Feb 23, 2013 4:24 PM ET
> More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP
> 
> A Cree who wears a traditional coonskin cap he made himself, Dawood is a member of the James Smith First Nation in Saskatchewan. He is also a strident advocate of armed jihad.
> 
> At Toronto mosques, he has handed out hundreds of DVDs of lectures by Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born radical cleric who urged his followers to fight the “evil” West — until a Hellfire missile found him in Yemen.
> 
> “For us as Muslims, our religion teaches that we’re brothers and sisters,” said Dawood, 33, who said he feared repercussions if his last name was published. “You have to stand up for your brothers and sisters, you have to defend them.”
> 
> Young, Canadian-born and online, Dawood is the embodiment of the Islamist extremists the government has called a top national security concern. He is also a newcomer to his faith, having converted to Islam less than five years ago, when he was drunk and suicidal.
> 
> And yet he has already attracted the attention of police and intelligence agencies. Canadian Security Intelligence Service officers have questioned him several times, he said, and an Australian counter-terrorism officer interviewed him two years ago for a study on “Canadian Muslim radicals.”
> 
> Nonetheless, Dawood said he was not an extremist. He said he opposed terrorism and two years ago had called CSIS to report that he had been approached by a Pakistani-Canadian who wanted to blow up the CN Tower. “That’s not the prophet’s teaching,” he said. “He never taught anything that was, ‘Go kill them wherever you see them.’”
> 
> But he is all for waging what he calls “defensive jihad,” which he defined as “defending against people who are in Muslim lands who shouldn’t be.” While he once wanted to travel to Yemen, because Awlaki was there, he said he decided against it. “I was going to go but I thought of my kids,” he said. Instead, he encourages other Canadians to make their way to places like Somalia to take up arms.
> 
> He also said he had solicited donations in Toronto for Taliban families, even though his brother is a member of the Canadian Forces. “He won’t even talk to me,” he said of his brother. “I’ve made it very clear to my brother that I disagree with him being in this military.”
> 
> In an interview, Dawood called Islam the most important thing in his life. Meeting with a reporter at a McDonald’s in Sarnia, he wore a Muslim skullcap and a thin beard. His 10-year-old son wore a T-shirt with a large hole in the front. His mother had cut out the shirt’s logo, a symbol of an animal, since idolatry is forbidden for observant Muslims.
> 
> It was a weekday but the boy was home from school because it was Valentine’s Day — also forbidden. A post on Dawood’s Facebook page explained that taking part in non-Muslim celebrations was prohibited because it “implies that one is pleased with their false beliefs and practices.”
> 
> While he said he had not taken part in any terrorist plots, he acknowledged the government considered him a terrorism supporter. He said CSIS officers had labelled him an extremist and called his views inappropriate.
> 
> Even the Muslim leader who converted Dawood said he disagreed with his views on violence. “He’s unstable,” said Muhammad Robert Heft. “The bottom line with Dawood is he doesn’t know very much about the religion.” He said Dawood relied too much on the Internet. “He follows Mufti Yahoo or Sheikh Google. I think with him it’s got to do more with wanting attention.”
> 
> But attention-seeking fanatics who sanctify violence with half-baked scripture can be dangerous. Several members of the Toronto 18 terrorist group that planned attacks in Southern Ontario in 2006 were converts. Soon after he converted, William Plotnikov, a Toronto boxer and Seneca College student, left Canada to join an Islamist rebel group in the Caucuses. Russian security forces shot him dead last July.
> 
> “Converts in particular are prone to extreme views because of their newfound zeal,” CSIS wrote as long ago as 2004 in Canadian Converts to Radical Islam, a report released under the Access to Information Act. “Al-Qaeda and like-minded organizations are aware of the usefulness of converts for a variety of purposes: spreading propaganda, logistical support and knowledge of the West, among others.”
> 
> An outspoken critic of extremism, Mr. Heft said that without proper support, converts can become vulnerable to a hardline message, particularly if they are not accepted into the larger Muslim community.
> 
> “So they get disenfranchised and then they become bitter. And when they become bitter they end up finding somebody who has an understanding of the religion that fits in with their feeling of being an outcast,” he said. “It happens not only to new Muslims but newly practising Muslims.”
> 
> Dawood’s Facebook page is a blend of Islamic and aboriginal causes: a video that calls democracy a sin; another on the “sacred war” in Mali; and Idle No More slogans. He runs an organization called Northern Dawah that hands out Korans to aboriginal people and claims to have converted some of them.
> 
> “Being aboriginal puts me on a platform that you deal with racism on a daily basis,” he said in a YouTube video about his conversion. One of his “favourite videos” on YouTube is “Last Message to the West,” which shows Awlaki in a camouflage jacket declaring war against America. “I specifically invite youth to either fight in the West or join their brothers on the fronts of jihad — Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia,” Awlaki says in the clip, his parting shot before a drone-fired missile killed him.
> 
> The tattoo on Dawood’s forearm, which he got in Thailand, symbolizes peace, love and happiness. But his life has been a struggle for all three.
> 
> Born with fetal alcohol syndrome, Dawood grew up in Keeler, Sask. His mother, a Cree, was a prostitute and alcoholic who abandoned her children for weeks at a time to party in Moose Jaw. Sometimes she would shave Dawood’s head and send him out to hustle money by pretending to be a cancer patient, he said. His father was a Swede and an abusive drunk who worked on the railroad, he said.
> 
> At an early age, he was sent to foster homes where he was sexually abused. He started running away at age 11 and, after beating a man who later died, spent two years at a youth detention facility. He ended up on the streets of Vancouver, addicted to crack cocaine.
> 
> Hoping to sober up, he moved to Toronto, Montreal, Thunder Bay and Hamilton, where he joined Mohawk Warriors at a land dispute in Caledonia, Ont. But even after the birth of his son, he couldn’t stop drinking.
> 
> In May 2008, he was living in Toronto, collecting welfare and confined to a wheelchair because of a car accident. Child services was after him because he was leaving his son at home alone to go drinking. He said he wrote a suicide note and mixed a lethal cocktail of prescription drugs.
> 
> Before he could do it, though, his son appeared and said he loved him. He believed it was a message from Allah, whom he had asked for help after meeting a Muslim on a bus. (He said he had previously turned to Jesus and Buddha, to no effect).
> 
> Convinced divine intervention had spared his life, he went to his computer and Googled “convert-to-Islam-Toronto.”
> 
> What came up was the website of Paradise 4 Ever, a non-profit that helps Muslim converts. Still drunk, he converted over the phone to Mr. Heft. The next day, he went to the P4E office and Mr. Heft gave him a skullcap, a white robe and money to buy groceries.
> 
> Early on, Dawood was drawn to the strict Salafist brand of Islam, which preaches that Muslims must shun Western life and live according to ancient laws and codes. The rigidity worked for him and he clung to it, fearing that straying meant going back to addiction.
> 
> Eager to learn but not a strong reader, he watched Awlaki on video. One of the lectures was about jihad. The concept came easily to him, since he already viewed Canada as an occupying power that terrorized and oppressed aboriginal people. That Muslims should also defend themselves from the West was just an extension of that view.
> 
> He said he went to a Toronto mosque popular among Afghans and asked how he could support the Taliban. He was given an email account where he could leave messages for people in Pakistan who would arrange money transfers, although he insisted it was only meant for the families of Taliban fighters and not for weapons. Because he had little money himself, he encouraged others to use the system to donate.
> 
> In addition, he began burning DVDs of Awlaki’s lectures and distributing them at Toronto mosques, he said. He also began discussing jihad with “brothers,” some of whom wanted to attack Canada and the United States. “I didn’t totally agree with that,” he said.
> 
> A few of his acquaintances left for Somalia, Afghanistan and Yemen, he said. “Some have come back, some are still there. Some are still alive,” he said. “My view is, I’m OK with it as long as they’re defending brothers and sisters. I will always have that view and I believe every Muslim should have that view.” But he said his ties to those who had gone off to fight brought him to the attention of CSIS, although he would not co-operate with investigators.
> 
> CSIS Director Richard Fadden testified last year that 45 to 60 Canadians had travelled — or attempted to travel — overseas to join “al-Qaeda-affiliated organizations and engage in terrorism-related activities.” A primary concern is that they might survive and return to foment more radicalism and violence.
> 
> The government is now considering legislation that would make it a crime to leave Canada for the purposes of participating in terrorist groups. “I disagree with it, of course,” Dawood said. He said Canadians had the right to join overseas jihads. “At the end of the day, there are people who deserve to be protected.”
> 
> National Post
> 
> sbell@nationalpost.com | Twitter: StewartBellNP
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/22/cree-jihadist-how-a-boy-from-a-saskatchewan-reserve-became-a-national-security-concern/


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Just ship him to some 3rd world Islamic country, he will get over soon enough when he see how life really is.


----------



## jollyjacktar

If only we could...


----------



## Kat Stevens

Hmmmm, this can't be right...


----------



## 57Chevy

Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
 Israel National News 
 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help intelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.

The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.

The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.


----------



## Kirkhill

"Islam will dominate the World"
"Muslims rise against the Crusaders"

Sudden image of dog chasing tail.  And no sense that any appeal to logic would prevail. :gloomy:


----------



## The Bread Guy

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
> Israel National News
> 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act
> 
> The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help intelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.
> 
> The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.
> 
> The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.


Here's a bit from CAIR-CAN's 22 Feb 13 statement ....


> The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR.CAN), a national Muslim civil liberties organization, is calling on supporters and concerned Canadians to immediately contact their federal Members of Parliament asking them to vote against Bill S-7 ....


.... with a bit more in the attached news release.

More on Bill S-7 here - next step:  back to the House of Commons for Third Reading.

And a bit of background on CAIR-CAN here:


> .... Consider some background on CAIR-CAN, courtesy 2011 testimony by security analyst David Harris before the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology. Harris, director of the International and Terrorist Intelligence Program at INSIGNIS Strategic Research, has been honoured internationally for his work as a counterterrorism expert.
> 
> He pointed out to the Senators that CAIR-CAN is the Canadian wing of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, which has not only funded by Saudi Arabian sources, but has been named by the U.S. Justice Department as an unindicted co-conspirator connected to the “largest terror-funding trial in U.S. history, the Holy Land Foundation criminal prosecution.” He noted that the prosecution “achieved numerous convictions.”
> 
> Furthermore, CAIR-CAN, along with its parent organization, is named as a defendant in the New York City 9/11 lawsuit involving the family of John P. O’Neill, the FBI counterterrorism agent killed in the World Trade Centre attack on Sept. 11, 2001.
> 
> CAIR-CAN sometimes gives the appearance of takes its marching orders from its American parent, said Harris, pointing out that under its first chair, Sheema Khan, CAIR-CAN, like U.S. organization, launched various unsuccessful ‘libel lawfare’ suits against those who questioned the group’s activities or motives.
> 
> Specifically, Harris reminded the Senators of the “libel lawfare jihad” when CAIR and CAIR-CAN sued various Canadian and American journalists and commentators who questioned the history and agenda of the two affiliated groups. The intent of the lawsuits was “to silence questions about CAIR and CAIR-CAN,” Harris told the committee.
> 
> According to Harris, several of CAIR’s senior staff, as well as others connected to the organization, have been convicted and imprisoned for terrorism-related offences. American security experts have described the organization as “Hamas front group an a Muslim Brotherhood front organization.” (See attached articles below.)
> 
> Of course, Harris noted, CAIR-CAN associates have repeatedly asserted that their organization is independent of the American group, with its own board of directors and Canadian incorporation. This claim is was contradicted, however, by Sheema Khan who, in 2003, swore an affidavit for the Ontario Supreme Court in connection with a trademark dispute. In the affidavit Khan “states categorically that CAIR-CAN is under the direction and control of the American CAIR organization.” Moreover, Khan, while a senior official of CAIR-CAN, also served on the board of CAIR.
> 
> Some journalists have questioned CAIR-CAN’s affiliations, Harris noted, referring to a 2006 article by David Frum that pointed out that 70 per cent of CAIR-CAN revenues went to CAIR.
> 
> Muslims, too, have also questioned CAIR-CAN’s bona fides. Author Tarek Fatah, in a 2008 article in the Calgary Herald, observed that CAIR and CAIR-CAN “seem to sing from the same jihadi hymn book.” ....


----------



## OldSolduer

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
> Israel National News
> 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act
> 
> The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help lintelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.
> 
> The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.
> 
> The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.



I am a bit gun shy of laws that allow a judge to imprison someone for a year for failing to cooperate. I'm also gunshy of "preventative arrests" . It appears to me we are heading down the road that will allow police to arrest you on rumour and innuendo. 

And that is not the Canada I know.

Please correct me if I have read this the wrong way.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'm good with it.


----------



## 57Chevy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I am a bit gun shy of laws that allow a judge to imprison someone for a year for failing to cooperate. I'm also gunshy of "preventative arrests" . It appears to me we are heading down the road that will allow police to arrest you on rumour and innuendo.
> 
> And that is not the Canada I know.
> 
> Please correct me if I have read this the wrong way.



I have similar thoughts, especially being arrested on rumours.
You never know what kind of crap others may be saying about you behind your back.
And the worst part is that it would allow them (The Law) to not tell you what was said about you.
In reality, Law enforcers would be really busy handling a shytload of false accusations.
How would it make their job easier ?

Sounds like a bad act in a lousy play. :facepalm:


----------



## Brad Sallows

>The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests

>avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary

>allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge

>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.

Without knowing the context and details any further, each of the four points as described above is intolerable.  However, you don't have to think very far to realize that points two and three are subject to the need to protect information which, publicly released, could compromise national security interests "seriously" (~"secret") or "gravely" (~"top secret").  A system of justice must function openly and transparently, otherwise it is by definition incapable of serving its purpose (it can not be just or achieve justice).


----------



## GAP

Students Told to Call 9-11 Hijackers “Freedom Fighters”
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/students-told-to-call-9-11-hijackers-freedom-fighters.html
By Todd Starnes

An Advanced Placement World Geography teacher at a Texas high school who encouraged students to dress in Islamic clothing also instructed them to refer to the 9-11 hijackers not as terrorists – but as “freedom fighters,” according to students who were in the class.

Students at Lumberton High School were also told to stop referring to the Holocaust as Genocide – instead they were told to use the term “ethnic cleansing.”

John Valastro, the superintendent of the Lumberton Independent School District, told Fox News that the teacher did absolutely nothing wrong.

“What is more dangerous – fear and ignorance or education and understanding,” he asked. “From our standpoint, we are here to educate the kids.”

Valastro said the teacher involved is a 32-year veteran who was simply following state teaching guidelines.

“I don’t think my freshman-level teacher was trying to politicize radical Islam or anything like that,” he told Fox News. “I don’t think our teacher has..to my knowledge ever converted a single student to Islam.”
A Texas mom became outraged after she discovered a Facebook photo of her child wearing Islamic garb.

A Texas mom became outraged after she discovered a Facebook photo of her child wearing Islamic garb.

The Islamic lessons in the small public high school generated national attention after a photograph of four female students wearing burqas surfaced on Facebook.

April LeBlanc’s 15-year-old daughter was one of the students in the photograph. She told Fox News that many parents in the district feel betrayed by school officials.

“My biggest thing is not the burqa,” she said. “That was the key to opening up the rest. It’s scary how far they dove into the Islamic faith. It’s scary what they taught my daughter. Who’s in charge of this? How did our superintendent let this slip through the cracks?”

LeBlanc said the students were told that they could no longer use the terms suicide bomber or terrorist. Instead, they were instructed to use the words “freedom fighters.”

“This teacher taught her that a freedom fighter is when they give their life for the Holy War – and that they’re going to go to heaven,” she told Fox News. “They were saturating these kids in Islam and my daughter is an American Christian child.”

Madelyn LeBlanc told Fox News that it was clear her teacher was very uncomfortable lecturing the students.

“I do have a lot of sympathy for her,” the 15-year-old said. “At the very beginning she said she didn’t want to teach it but it was in the curriculum.”

Her mother added that it was her impression that the teacher did not agree with the quote about calling the terrorists freedom fighters and laced her lecture with sarcasm.

During a lesson on Judaism, LeBlanc said the teacher told the class, “Students, I’m supposed to be politically correct and tell you that the Holocaust was not Genocide. It was an ethnic cleansing.”
more on link


----------



## George Wallace

I think there is a very vast difference between "Freedom Fighter" and "Religious Zealot".  I would not have called the "Spanish Inquisition" a group of "Freedom Fighters".


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think there is a very vast difference between "Freedom Fighter" and "Religious Zealot".  I would not have called the "Spanish Inquisition" a group of "Freedom Fighters".




If you *believe* that the only way to achieve salvation in _eternity_ is through one, specific sect of one religion then, surely, you must, equally, *believe* that doing whatever it takes to bring everyone to the one, true, all powerful god (the one in which you *believe*) is "liberating" them from false gods and hell and so forth. Isn't that fighting for "freedom?" Are you not, therefore, a legitimate "freedom fighter?"

We make a serious _strategic_ blunder if we pooh-pooh *beliefs*: they are powerful forces for change.


----------



## Journeyman

GAP said:
			
		

> By Todd Starnes
> 
> _blah blah blah_
> 
> *Todd is the author of Dispatches From Bitter America — endorsed by Sarah Palin, Mark Levin and Sean Hannity. Click here to get your copy!*


Ah, well, say no more.


----------



## GnyHwy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm good with it.



I am also.  I find this similar to CCTV or sound tapping debates.  I say, if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.  If what you are doing moves you far enough up the police's priority list that they feel the need to arrest you, then it is quite likely that you should be arrested.  A bit of trust has to be involved with the officials we put in place, otherwise we are potentially impeding their efforts, and when time can be the difference between a lot of people being harmed, I think it's good preemptive measure.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests
> 
> >avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary
> 
> >allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge
> 
> >The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.
> 
> Without knowing the context and details any further, each of the four points as described above is intolerable.  However, you don't have to think very far to realize that points two and three are subject to the need to protect information which, publicly released, could compromise national security interests "seriously" (~"secret") or "gravely" (~"top secret").  A system of justice must function openly and transparently, otherwise it is by definition incapable of serving its purpose (it can not be just or achieve justice).



Let's go one at a time with these, because once again, I don't see the problem, and don't really see much of a difference from what we already do.  It's just semantics to me.

>The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests   Do we not already do this?  If the police have reasonable suspicion, they are going to arrest you.  This may loosen the reigns a bit,  but perhaps that is what is needed to make timely arrests.  What they need for their argument are stats that prove that there were times when police couldn't make a preemptive arrest, and something horrible happened because of it.

>avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary  We do this already too.  Investigators never give up sensitive info or evidence, especially when trying to figure out the truth and get confessions.  Withholding or twisting the truth when investigating is the only way to get the truth.  The proper evidence should and will be given to the accused prior to trial, not during the investigation.

>allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge  Does it need to be in the open?  Once again, placing trust in the authorities we have put to task.

>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.  This one's a tough one, and a year seems long, but I can't imagine it would be used hastily.  Do we not already do this with "held without bail"?  As well, if charged with terrorism which is similar to an act of war, how long do you keep a POW before he is to be tried?  What if the investigation is so complex that one year isn't enough?

Until we truly separate church from state, rhetoric and personal opinions from fact, and ultimately all the noise that confuses these issues, no recognizable progress can be made.

To allow the he said she said crap to convolute our courts is a waste of resources without any foreseeable end state.


----------



## GAP

> >The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.
> This one's a tough one, and a year seems long, but I can't imagine it would be used hastily.  Do we not already do this with "held without bail"?  As well, if charged with terrorism which is similar to an act of war, how long do you keep a POW before he is to be tried?  What if the investigation is so complex that one year isn't enough?



Why not have this reviewed by a second judge/panel within 30 days of the sentence....this would give oversight.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Frankly making the left-wing peace loving youths spend a day or even a few living within the constraints of a fundamental Islamic society, might be a very good idea. Also part way through switch the female and males roles.


----------



## Brad Sallows

If we already have laws which allow pre-emptive arrests, we do not need to loosen them.  Statistics which count horrible outcomes which *might* have been prevented are irrelevant for two reasons: the numbers will be manipulated, and security-no-matter-the-cost is a weak principle by which to structure a system of justice.

If there is an assurance that all evidence will be disclosed at trial, that is all that is needed.  If the legislation allows some evidence to be hidden from the defence, the legislation must not be allowed to stand.

Authorities whose proper function depends on trust must be permitted as little free rein of trust as possible.  "Authorities" are people no different from any others.  Their function will be perverted by their desires and needs.

If a suspect is not in contempt of court, there should be no grounds for punishment.  If a suspect is in contempt of court, the law already provides.  Nothing new is needed.

Fundamentally: if this is all just "semantics", then no new laws are needed.


----------



## Edward Campbell

:goodpost:  Thanks for that Brad; I agree without reservation. +300


----------



## GnyHwy

First, I will admit that I am out of my league here, and have not read the details of this the way a lawyer getting paid to do so is.  But, from my many times arguing the what ifs of ROEs, and understanding levels of authority and clearances of fire, I can relate to this topic.  As well, considering there are very few legal experts on this site, it would be pretty quiet if it were only experienced persons were posting.

Let's hit your points one at a time again, not necessarily in order.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If we already have laws which allow pre-emptive arrests, we do not need to loosen them.  Statistics which count horrible outcomes which *might* have been prevented are irrelevant for two reasons: the numbers will be manipulated, and security-no-matter-the-cost is a weak principle by which to structure a system of justice.



Perhaps it is not just a matter of loosening them, but also a matter of defining them better, and lowering the level of control to a level that can act in a timely manner under clear and concise guidelines.  The laws can be widened while getting more detailed and concise at the same time.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If there is an assurance that all evidence will be disclosed at trial, that is all that is needed.  If the legislation allows some evidence to be hidden from the defence, the legislation must not be allowed to stand.



If we are talking about witholding evidence at a trial or having "secret" evidence then yes, I agree with you, that it should remain illegal.  But, witholding and tainting evidence during the investigation is just good police work.  Protecting witnesses is another issue that falls into this category as well.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Authorities whose proper function depends on trust must be permitted as little free rein of trust as possible.  "Authorities" are people no different from any others.  Their function will be perverted by their desires and needs.



This is the one I suspect we are the furthest apart on.  I think you are out on a limb with the perverted comment as well; that is likely rare, and we have processes to deal with that.  Without freedom to act, and the another layer for approval, timeliness is an issue.  I suspect, the methods and tools of policing, particularly electronic measures have developed to a point where our laws don't support them the way they should.  Further, why can't decisions be made at lower levels?  If they are given the training, and authority, and have the oversight, they are probably the best persons to be making the decisions because they have the best situational awareness.  Relaying report after report to a higher authority that may or may not read it thoroughly is not only untimely, but potentially harmful to the investigation. i.e. the higher authority will steer the investigation based on incomplete information. 



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If a suspect is not in contempt of court, there should be no grounds for punishment.  If a suspect is in contempt of court, the law already provides.  Nothing new is needed.



Are you suggesting that we not be able to hold persons without bail?



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Fundamentally: if this is all just "semantics", then no new laws are needed.



Perhaps we don't need new ones, just expansion and clarity on the current ones. It is just semantics to me, but not to lawyers that get paid to write this stuff, and police that need the clarity in order to carry out their duties.  By not having clarity, and asking officers to call home to ask questions anytime a decision needs to be made, not only hinders them physically, but also mentally.  

I think we have all seen the delegation of authority in the military be passed down to lower levels more frequently in recent times.  Why wouldn't it be the same for policing?  The training and methods have improved, why shouldn't the laws?


----------



## Sythen

I hope its just a typo, but please clarify what you mean by this?



			
				GnyHwy said:
			
		

> But, witholding and tainting evidence during the investigation is just good police work.


----------



## GnyHwy

Sythen said:
			
		

> I hope its just a typo, but please clarify what you mean by this?



It is *not* a typo. In hindsight, tainting was a very poor choice of words.:nod: I am referring to interrogating suspects and witnesses.  

Ex. There are crazy crackpots out there that will confess to crimes.  Copy cat serial killers come to mind.  There are also criminals that will confess as scapegoats, to things in order to cover the bigger picture and mislead the police.  When the police change, lie, or twist the details of an investigation i.e. crime was committed in a blue car instead of the actual white car that committed the crime, the people who are lying become transparent, because they will make claims based on the police's "evidence" rather than the truth.

I also think that some people blur the difference between disclosing evidence for a trial and disclosing it for an investigation.  They are two different things.


----------



## Sythen

I see what you're saying and appreciate the clarification. Its why I didn't break out the pitchfork right away, because I assumed I was misunderstanding your point


----------



## jollyjacktar

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> It is *not* a typo. In hindsight, tainting was a very poor choice of words.:nod: I am referring to interrogating suspects and witnesses.
> 
> Ex. There are crazy crackpots out there that will confess to crimes.  Copy cat serial killers come to mind.  There are also criminals that will confess as scapegoats, to things in order to cover the bigger picture and mislead the police.  When the police change, lie, or twist the details of an investigation i.e. crime was committed in a blue car instead of the actual white car that committed the crime, the people who are lying become transparent, because they will make claims based on the police's "evidence" rather than the truth.
> 
> I also think that some people blur the difference between disclosing evidence for a trial and disclosing it for an investigation.  They are two different things.



Try, as we'd say, "an investigative technique".  That's more accurate.


----------



## Brad Sallows

When some of our former prime ministers are believed to have coloured very close to the line, if not outside it, there is nothing under heaven that will ever compel me to believe my skeptical view of people with authority is misplaced.

Eventually this business with fanatics will be resolved, and I doubt the "extraordinary" laws will go away; the laws will have become too useful for dealing with inconvenient people.  And I labour under no illusion that any nation's government is exempt from becoming insane, or merely mildly deranged, and finding pretexts to deem people "inconvenient".


----------



## leroi

Interesting ... this Muslim scholar makes the case against Jihad/war by radicals:

http://www.israinternational.com/component/content/article/42-rokstories/318-muslim-scholars-recast-ibn-taymiyyahs-fatwa-on-jihad.html


----------



## Edward Campbell

The CBC is reporting on the two Canadians involved in the gas plant bombing in Algeria; the report is reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _CBC News_:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/01/f-algeria-canadians-militants-hostages.html


> Canadians in Algerian gas plant attack identified
> *More Canadians may have been involved in attack*
> 
> By Greg Weston, National Affairs Specialist
> CBC News
> 
> Posted: Apr 1, 2013
> 
> CBC News has learned that two Canadians linked to al-Qaeda and killed while staging a bloody attack on an Algerian gas refinery earlier this year were former high school friends in their early 20s, one from a Greek Orthodox family, and both from a comfortable middle-class London, Ont., neighbourhood.
> 
> A special CBC News investigation has confirmed the two al-Qaeda linked militants are Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej, both believed to be under 24 years old.
> 
> The attack by the two Canadians and 30 other militants linked to al-Qaeda left more than three dozen refinery workers dead, the final 10 of whom were reportedly tied to gas plant piping and killed in a massive bomb blast.
> 
> Sources say it is likely Katsiroubas and Medlej intentionally blew themselves up in the blast; only one of them could be identified by DNA testing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xris Katsiroubas, one of two Canadians killed while staging
> an attack on an Algerian gas refinery earlier this year,
> grew up in a home with a backyard swimming pool in a
> middle-class London neighbourhood with rich ethnic
> diversity. (CBC)
> 
> The Harper government at first denied there was any evidence Canadians had been involved in the attack, and the RCMP have continued to keep the identities of the pair a tight secret.
> 
> Now sources tell CBC News there may have been more than just the duo.
> 
> Sources say at least two more former London schoolmates of Katsiroubas and Medlej also travelled overseas with them.
> 
> But it is not yet clear whether the others are still alive, nor if they were involved in the Algerian gas plant attack.
> 
> Police sources say Katsiroubas is the likely attacker whom survivors have described as blond-haired and speaking fluent “North American English.”
> 
> Canada’s intelligence service is refusing to comment.
> 
> But CBC News has learned that as long ago as 2007, CSIS agents interviewed some family and friends of the two, who were were then teenagers.
> 
> A former London friend of the two men said one of their relatives called the police, complaining they were “hanging around with weirdos.”
> 
> He says a CSIS agent subsequently interviewed a number of their friends.
> 
> *Not under surveillance*
> 
> Intelligence sources say CSIS did not have the two men and their other friends under surveillance when they left Canada sometime last year on their ultimately bloody mission.
> 
> No one will ever know all the details of how and why two teenagers who seemed rather normal ended up committing such monstrous acts.
> 
> But the details that are emerging from former friends and associates suggest theirs is a story that is becoming frighteningly more common.
> 
> "Xris" Katsiroubas grew up in a home with a backyard swimming pool in a middle-class London neighbourhood with rich ethnic diversity.
> 
> He lived with his mother after his parents divorced, and by all accounts seemed normal.
> 
> One former friend recalls that in the early years, at least, “he was like all the other kids, very smart in school, quite active.”
> 
> Katsiroubas appears to have had an older brother, and at least three large families of cousins.
> 
> One relative is quoted in a 2007 news article saying he travelled all the way across London to shop at his favorite Greek pastry shop.
> 
> Little is known about Ali Medlej; he appears to have gone through most of his schooling without even a mention in most of his school yearbooks.
> 
> But sources tell CBC News that he and Katsiroubas remained friends throughout their high school years together at London South Secondary.
> 
> Medlej appears to have graduated in 2007, the same year Katsiroubas seems to have dropped out at the end of Grade 11.
> 
> A former friend says that at some point in those teenage years, Katsiroubas converted to Islam.
> 
> One former school acquaintance who ran into Katsiroubas in 2009 recalls “it was really hard to relate to him at that point. He wasn’t the same. He had other interests – kept saying let’s go to the mosque.
> 
> "It wasn’t that he wanted to take me there. It was that he wanted to go there and he thought a couple of hours spent with me (catching up) was probably a waste of time."
> 
> Shortly after they left high school, Medlej and Katsiroubas and another friend travelled out West, did some odd jobs, and finally returned to London within six months.
> 
> Medlej apparently got married sometime after 2009.
> 
> The next time most of their former school friends heard about Medlej and Katsiroubas again was about two months ago after the attack on the Algerian gas plant.
> 
> CSIS agents were back asking questions again.
> 
> The agents never mentioned the two were dead, much less that they had participated in one of the most heinous attacks in recent years.
> 
> Investigators say many of the innocent gas plant workers who died in the attack were burned alive.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, from the _National Post_ are school yearbook photos of the two young men, both from London, ON, suspected to have died, intentionally, in the Algeria bombing:


----------



## a_majoor

A bit of a tangent, but this suggests how some of these people/groups can get started here, or get the logistical support needed to carry out their activities around the world (sending monies via the Hawala network, for example). While former Liberal MP and current Mayor Joe Fontana is the politician who expedited this (or perhaps was targetted by Mr Rashid), I doubt that politicians from any party would be immune to the potential of cash, power and influence that could be offered by such people:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/search-for-palestinian-authoritys-missing-millions-leads-to-canada/article10600170/



> *Search for Palestinian Authority’s missing millions leads to Canada*
> CAMPBELL CLARK
> DUBAI — The Globe and Mail
> Published Monday, Apr. 01 2013, 6:00 AM EDT
> 
> A search for millions that were allegedly embezzled from the Palestinian Authority has led to Canada – and raised questions about how the prime suspect obtained Canadian citizenship.
> 
> Muhammad Rashid was once a senior aide for the Palestinian Authority’s founding President, Yasser Arafat, and head of the Authority’s public investment company, which owned stakes in companies operating businesses from cement to cellphones.
> 
> MORE RELATED TO THIS STORY
> 
> DIPLOMACY Baird trip a bid to build Canada's Mideast ties after Arab Spring
> Baird announces $13-million in aid to help Syrian refugees in Jordan
> In Middle East tour, Baird reaching beyond Israel-Palestinian issues
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: Arab summit defends right to arm Syria rebels
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: Assad forces recapture epicenter of armed rebellion
> 
> VIDEO
> Video: NDP slams Tories' plan to oppose Palestine statehood at UN
> Last June, a Palestinian court convicted Mr. Rashid, in absentia, of embezzling $34-million.
> 
> The Globe and Mail has learned that Mr. Rashid’s ties to Canada have led Palestinian authorities to ask Ottawa for help looking for assets. The Canadian government, however, says there is little it can do.
> 
> The Globe has learned Mr. Rashid obtained Canadian citizenship in 2003, even though Palestinian sources claim that he resided primarily in the Middle East. Palestinian prosecutors believe Mr. Rashid, also known as Khaled Salam, now lives in London, England but that he may be travelling on a Canadian passport.
> 
> They are also following up his business dealings in Canada, including a period on the board of a Canadian bio-science company.
> 
> The Palestinian Authority’s Foreign Affairs Minister, Riad Malki, has asked his Canadian counterpart, John Baird, for help in locating what they deem stolen property. Mr. Malki personally sent a letter to Mr. Baird in February, The Globe and Mail has learned.
> 
> Mr. Baird is in the Middle East this week, visiting not only Israel and the West Bank but also Jordan and several key Gulf nations. He is likely to hear renewed requests for help when he meets with Palestinian officials in Ramallah on Saturday.
> 
> “He managed to put his assets all over the world, but not in Palestine,” the deputy chairman of the Palestinian anti-corruption commission, Akram Al Khatib, said in an interview before Mr. Malki sent his official request for assistance. The Palestinian Authority wants information on Mr. Rashid’s assets and business dealings in Canada: “We are very interested in that,” he said.
> 
> The Palestinian Authority asked Interpol to issue an arrest warrant, but was turned down because the Authority doesn’t have status as a country. Canada has also rebuffed requests for assistance. A spokesman for the Foreign Affairs Department, Amanda Reid, said because Canada does not have a formal legal-assistance treaty with the Palestinian Authority that arranges for help in foreign investigations, “Our capacity to assist is limited.”
> 
> Mr. Rashid was Mr. Arafat’s key financial adviser and chairman of Palestinian Commercial Services Company, which made more than $700-million in investments, operating a West Bank cement monopoly and buying into businesses that ranged from Egypt’s Orascom Telecom to a New York bowling alley.
> 
> Last year, he was convicted of embezzling, money laundering and taking commissions “by which he was able to unjustifiably enrich himself,” Mr. Al Khatib said. He was sentenced to 15 years in jail and a $15-million fine.
> 
> Mr. Rashid, who has been in a bitter feud with current Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said in a television interview last year that the accusations are false, and in turn accused Mr. Abbas of building a family fortune with Palestinians’ money.
> 
> But the chase for Mr. Rashid is now raising questions in Canada. How could a man working in the West Bank as a senior adviser to one of the most high-profile figures in the world, Yasser Arafat, manage to obtain Canadian citizenship?
> 
> Sources confirmed Mr. Rashid was granted citizenship in 2003. But Mr. Al Khatib said Mr. Rashid was in the West Bank for at least eight years prior. Mr. Rashid lived in Cairo for a time in 2003, when, according to reports, he had a rift with Mr. Arafat. But Mr. Al Khatib said he did not leave the West Bank for good until 2005.
> 
> The law requires that a person seeking Canadian citizenship must live in Canada for three of the four years prior to his application. Only the federal cabinet can waive those requirements. It’s not known whether Mr. Rashid claimed on his citizenship application he lived in Canada. A spokesman for the Citizenship and Immigration department, Erika-Kirsten Easton, said that because of privacy laws, the government cannot comment.
> 
> Mr. Rashid does have established links to at least one Canadian business venture, through a 1999 investment by the Palestinian Authority in human and veterinary pharmaceuticals maker Bioniche Life Sciences Inc., then based in London, Ont.
> 
> It came about, Bioniche president Graeme McRae said, after he was told of a potential investor by Joe Fontana, then a London, Ont. MP and chair of the House of Commons citizenship and immigration committee. Mr. Fontana is now London’s mayor. The Canadian government, Mr. McRae said, was helping the Palestinian company look for investments.
> 
> “He said there’s these very interesting people who want to invest in Canadian businesses – ‘ethical Canadian businesses,’ is the way it was expressed,” Mr. McRae said in telephone interview.
> 
> “And he said, ‘I want to try to bring them to London and bring their investment.’ ”
> 
> Mr. Fontana did not return telephone calls requesting comment.
> 
> The 1999 investment landed Mr. Rashid a spot on the company’s board of directors. Mr. McRae said he thought highly of Mr. Rashid, who came to a few board meetings. But Bioniche asked to buy out the Palestinian investment in 2003 due to concerns their presence might get in the way of efforts to organize new financing in the U.S.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Here, from the _National Post_ are school yearbook photos of the two young men, both from London, ON, suspected to have died, intentionally, in the Algeria bombing:


The latest - one more being looked into ....


> Canadian authorities are investigating a man from London, Ontario, they say associated with two men from there who died in January, allegedly as part of the team of terrorists who attacked an Algerian gas plant.
> 
> Aaron Yoon isn't thought by Canadian authorities to have taken part in the attack, but joined Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej in Morocco before the assault happened, said people familiar with the matter and with Mr. Yoon. Messrs. Katsiroubas's and Medlej's trip would end with their deaths in Algeria, these people said Canadian and Algerian authorities believe.
> 
> The nature of the Canadian probe into Mr. Yoon and details of his exact relationship with the two other men aren't clear.
> 
> The probe of the three men and their upbringing in southern Ontario underscores the growing difficulty Western governments face in identifying potential threats from homegrown Islamists. It also illustrates the growing difficulty of combating terrorists directly abroad.
> 
> Mr. Yoon is in Mauritania studying Arabic and is "totally against terrorism," said his brother. The brother denied a Canadian Broadcasting Corp. report that said Mr. Yoon was jailed in an African country. "I spoke to him three days ago and he is fine," he said, without elaborating.
> 
> All three attended the London South Collegiate Institute, a school in an affluent part of the city, Mr. Yoon's brother and school authorities said.
> 
> Mr. Yoon, a Muslim convert of Korean-Canadian ancestry, was part of a group of friends who attended mosques in London, a few hours drive from Detroit, people familiar with the men said ....


_Wall Street Journal_, 3 Apr 13


> Aaron Yoon’s sudden conversion to Islam four years ago came as a surprise to his Korean-Canadian family, but it was a generally positive one, lessening family tensions and bringing the 24-year-old closer to his siblings and parents.
> 
> He even addressed concerns about terrorism, insisting it was contrary to his new religion, and that he was “100% opposed” to such violence, his elder brother told the National Post Wednesday.
> 
> Mr. Yoon has spent the past two years studying the Koran — and trying to learn Arabic — in Morocco and neighbouring Mauritania. But the Yoons were shocked and angered this week when CBC-TV named him as a collaborator with two other Canadians who allegedly helped carry out a bloody terrorist attack in Algeria, and died in the siege.
> 
> Mr. Yoon did meet up with Xris Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej — friends from a London, Ont., high school — in Morocco two years ago, but lost contact with them after a year, said his brother, who asked not to be named for privacy reasons.
> 
> Mr. Yoon was stunned to hear of their deaths a week ago from his brother, who said he has had regular contact with his sibling.
> 
> “I broke the news to him that Xris and Ali were deceased.… He was quite shocked and took that pretty hard,” said the brother, who still lives in London.
> 
> “All he knows is what I told him: basically that they were involved in a terrorist attack and they’re deceased. He was just totally shocked, and he wants to know what happened.”
> 
> Mr. Yoon is now interested in returning to Canada and clearing his name, said the brother.
> 
> Their conversation by cellphone a week ago came after Canadian authorities approached the London family to ask about the three young men, days before their identities became public ....


_National Post_, 4 Apr 13




Aaron Yoon in the 2005-2006 yearbook from South Secondary School in London, Ont.. GEOFF ROBINS for National Post


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, is more on the three alleged Canadian _jihadis_ who were (maybe) involved in the Algeria bombing:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-three-london-teens-ended-up-dead-or-jailed-accused-of-terrorism/article10825822/


> How three London teens ended up dead or jailed, accused of terrorism
> 
> KATHRYN BLAZE CARLSON, ANN HUI AND TU THANH HA
> LONDON, ONT. and TORONTO — The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Saturday, Apr. 06 2013
> 
> They pulled up to an Edmonton bus terminal, their Southwestern Ontario childhood homes now more than 3,000 kilometres in the rearview mirror. Like so many Canadians who came before and after them, the pair of teenagers travelled west to Alberta with the hope of a decent job, a chance at prosperity, a shot at a better life.
> 
> In 2007, Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej left London, a manufacturing hub with disappearing jobs. Boasting little in savings, they turned to an elementary-school friend, who fronted them money for a deposit on an apartment and drove them around the city handing out résumés. Their dream of achieving some measure of financial stability was met with the reality of employment at places like Applebees, as a cook, and as a gas-station attendant. Those gigs didn’t last long.
> 
> Within months, Mr. Katsiroubas, a high-school dropout and convert to Islam, and Mr. Medlej, the elder of the two by a year, found themselves embittered, discouraged by a string of setbacks and confronted with a feeling that the world was conspiring against them.
> 
> Somewhere along the line, in London or Edmonton or some other place yet to come to light, the deflation and annoyance morphed into something more than typical teenage angst: In January of this year, Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej, both in their early 20s, were found dead in the middle of the Sahara after a terrorist attack on an Algerian gas plant that killed dozens of hostages. They were not victims.
> 
> What transformed the two from average teenagers to two men accused of helping organize a violent siege remains a mystery. Similarly murky is the case of a third London man, a friend named Aaron Yoon, who is being held in a Mauritania jail under suspicion he is a _jihadi_ with the hardline Salafist movement.
> 
> The Globe and Mail went to their hometown in search of answers, interviewing dozens of friends, neighbours and former classmates, as well as making calls across the country and overseas. The families, for their part, have chosen to guard their privacy; only Mr. Yoon’s older brother spoke out. The men’s upbringings were painted by those who knew them over the years as mostly unremarkable.
> 
> But then, of course, something changed.
> 
> When Mr. Katsiroubas arrived in Edmonton with Mr. Medlej, he was just a regular teen, according to Basel Alsaadi, Mr. Katsiroubas’ childhood friend from London who was already living in Edmonton. The two newcomers moved into an apartment with a third Londoner named Benjamin Thomas, having parties and girls over “pretty much every night,” Mr. Alsaadi said.
> 
> It was not long, though, before Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej realized they couldn’t sustain their lifestyle. They resorted to stealing to get by, with court records reportedly showing that both Mr. Medlej and Mr. Thomas pleaded guilty to shoplifting in May, 2007, each slapped with a $1,000 fine. “They felt like others had privileges and that the world was unfair,” Mr. Alsaadi said.
> 
> Some of those feelings stemmed from their views on politics. Mr. Medlej, whose parents are believed to be Lebanese, was overheard talking about Lebanese conflicts in the Middle East – particularly its war with Israel in 2006 – saying he felt his people were being taken advantage of, bullied even. “They had an overarching understanding that things were not fair,” Mr. Alsaadi said.
> 
> Their living situation was beginning to grate on them, too. Both Muslim, Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej grew increasingly annoyed at Mr. Thomas’ drinking and partying with friends at the apartment, Mr. Alsaadi said. Their landlady wasn’t impressed either, and they were soon evicted.
> 
> Mr. Alsaadi never thought Mr. Katsiroubas was in any kind of serious trouble until the Canadian Security Intelligence Service approached him – tipped off, according to the CBC, by someone who knew them. “It was alarming,” Mr. Alsaadi said. “I actually told them, ‘What are you guys up to, what’s going on here?’ ”
> 
> Mr. Alsaadi, who hadn’t had contact with either of the men in years, said he really doesn’t think the two were planning anything at the time. He feels, though, that the experience emboldened them. “The fact that they were being questioned kind of gave them that self-importance,” he said. “It kind of made them be even more rebellious.”
> 
> Residents in the men’s hometown were aghast at this week’s revelation that two of their own were implicated in the North Africa attack and that Mr. Yoon had been detained. The news is a conversation starter among strangers holding newspapers on street corners; it is on the lips of neighbours, friends and relatives trying to reconcile the portrait of the families they knew years ago with the narrative emerging now about the three men.
> 
> For Mr. Alsaadi and another childhood friend, the bearded, Muslim-garbed Mr. Katsiroubas, who ultimately went by the name of “Mustafa,” was wholly unrecognizable next to the memory of a Greek boy named Xris. The young Xris played volleyball, basketball and road hockey. He went to the movies and visited a Greek bakery with his father, Stan, and he was a “Conflict Cooler” who helped settle playground spats at St. George Etienne Cartier elementary school.
> 
> The school, in a well-to-do neighbourhood, is a walk away from the house he called home after his parents divorced. His mother moved into the Chiddington Avenue home, already owned by her new husband Ian Hawn, merging the two families. “It was a Brady Bunch situation,” said the childhood friend’s father, who hosted Mr. Katsiroubas for playdates.
> 
> Mr. Alsaadi remembers feeling as though Mr. Katsiroubas’ mother and Mr. Hawn, his engineer stepfather, played favourites. With the two families under one roof, Xris was one of three boys, alongside his biological brother Andrew and a stepbrother, Eric. Mr. Katsiroubas often descended into the basement alone to play video games.
> 
> Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Yoon went to elementary school together, but since Mr. Medlej attended a different school, he didn’t come into the fold until high school at London South Collegiate Institute – until Grade 10 or so, when he and Mr. Katsiroubas “clicked,” as one former schoolmate put it.
> 
> Mr. Medlej was a year older and not like the other two. While Mr. Yoon and Mr. Katsiroubas were described in their early high-school years as inconspicuous, Mr. Medlej was remembered for an oftentimes “jolly” nature, a sometimes hot temper and his impressive smarts.
> 
> “In my memory, he’s got a smile and kind of happy-go-lucky [personality] for the most part,” said former classmate Michael Melito, who played football with Mr. Medlej. He added, though: “[He was] quick to anger, but not an angry person … Maybe someone who had a shorter fuse.”
> 
> One friend remembers Mr. Medlej telling him he took a baseball bat to a “group of white kids” who were yelling at him from their porch. Another former schoolmate said he got into a brawl with Mr. Medlej outside a London bar in 2008 – there had long been bad blood between the two, the schoolmate said, since he was convinced Mr. Medlej stole his backpack in high school.
> 
> But the friend said Mr. Medlej was also incredibly bright. “He and I would sit together [in class], and goof off or whatever, but I would get mediocre marks, whereas he would goof off and still get like 90s,” he said of studying together at the collegiate, which is in one of the city’s oldest neighbourhoods.
> 
> Although this friend saw Mr. Medlej as a leader who didn’t travel with a pack, he believed Mr. Medlej wanted to “fit in” with the Lebanese cohort at a school somewhat divided between the “white” students and an immigrant population captured by the school after it widened its net to the south.
> 
> It is there, in the south London neighbourhood of White Oaks, that Mr. Yoon’s Catholic parents live. Unlike the Katsiroubas house, with its healthy lawn and backyard pool, the Yoon apartment is on the dimly lit third-floor of a three-storey walk-up condominium complex across from a mall.
> 
> By 2006, Mr. Katsiroubas had left behind his Greek Orthodox upbringing for Islam, praying daily with Mr. Medlej at the high school, one former schoolmate said. Mr. Katsiroubas started going by the name “Mustafa,” sporting a long beard and then, after dropping out of school around Grade 11, donning more traditional Muslim clothing.
> 
> “Maybe he just found it difficult, maybe he didn’t have the support,” Mr. Alsaadi said. “Maybe it was the people he hung around with didn’t value school, per se, and wanted to just move on and do other things.”
> 
> Indeed, the friend who grew up with Mr. Katsiroubas said “Mustafa” started hanging out with a different crowd, all but ignoring this former friend at school. “Right away, he changed [after converting],” he said. “He travelled many places and came back with a beard. You couldn’t recognize him. He started wearing different clothes. You’d see him in the smoker’s pit and he wouldn’t say a word to anyone.”
> 
> The nature of any travel outside Canada is a major question mark in this evolving tale. It may be what prompted CSIS to ask the RCMP to put Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej on their radar two years ago, a move that suggested law-enforcement authorities were increasingly concerned about their potential crimes.
> 
> When threats are felt to be serious enough, CSIS sends a “disclosure letter” or an “advisory letter” to the RCMP concerning the most dangerous extremists. The disclosure letters provide tips and leads to the Mounties, while advisory letters provide the RCMP with information that is intended to support police searches, wiretaps and, eventually, criminal charges.
> 
> Little is publicly known about where Mr. Katsiroubas had journeyed before meeting his death at the Algerian gas plant in January. Mr. Alsaadi said he believes Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej left Canada in 2009 – for where, he doesn’t know – but the pair must have returned before venturing to North Africa because they were both spotted in London in the years between.
> 
> The friend who went to elementary school with Mr. Katsiroubas said he saw Mustafa in early 2012, shortly after one of Mr. Katsiroubas’ high-school friends, Said Hadbai, was shot dead after he reportedly stepped in to help a friend involved in a fight. The friend said hello and offered his condolences; Mr. Katsiroubas, whom the friend said was “dead to [the family]” by this point, offered but a nod.
> 
> Mr. Medlej, for his part, got married sometime in late 2009 or early 2010. A friend posted a message to Facebook on Jan. 9, 2010, saying his “bro Ali Medlej” had just got married. The day before, the friend wrote that Mr. Medlej was planning to “hang” with him and Mustafa in London – that they were going to “the mosque.”
> 
> A year later, Mr. Medlej was working at a downtown London Hasty Market.
> 
> Mr. Yoon came to the Muslim faith later than Mr. Medlej and Mr. Katsiroubas, converting from Catholicism to Islam three or four years ago, his older brother told The Globe. One woman who said she worked with Mr. Yoon while he was a busboy at a Mandarin restaurant in 2008, and then again when he hauled furniture from the stockroom at a Leon’s warehouse in 2011, noticed a major shift in those years.
> 
> At Leon’s, he prayed daily and refused to converse with female supervisors since, he said, women had no business being “superior.” He flooded his former coworker’s Facebook feed with so many quotes from the Koran that she ultimately deleted him from her social network.
> 
> “He was this fun-loving guy at the Mandarin,” she said, adding that he used to have after-work drinks with coworkers and spend time with a girlfriend. “And then when I saw him at the Leon’s, it was a complete shock. He isolated himself from people and hung out alone.”
> 
> One of Mr. Yoon’s two older brothers, who answered the door Wednesday at his parents’ White Oaks dwelling with tired, red eyes, said Mr. Yoon became a “better person” when he adopted the teachings of the Koran, fostering a better relationship with his family.
> 
> Around the time Mr. Yoon is believed to have converted and the other two returned from Edmonton disgruntled at an “unfair” world, two Canadian diplomats – Robert Fowler and Louis Guay – disappeared while on a mission in Niger. They were held hostage for four months by the men of Mokhtar Belmokhtar, a leader of al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and the man believed to be behind the Algeria hostage-taking.
> 
> Mr. Yoon’s brother firmly rejects the notion that Mr. Yoon had become radicalized – or that he journeyed to North Africa for any reason other than to join friends, initially in Morocco.
> 
> It turns out that Mr. Yoon left for Mauritania in May, 2011, to study Arabic in the capital, Nouakchott, according to Amnesty International. Just seven months into his African trip, he was arrested as a terror suspect, and by July, 2012, he was sentenced to two years in jail and a fine, said an Amnesty International researcher, Gaëtan Mootoo.
> 
> News of this third Londoner’s detention went unnoticed because it was published in a little-known Arabic-language publication. In a July 29, 2012, article, the Mauritanian magazine El Hourriya reported that a Canadian named Haroun Yoon was in custody on suspicions that he was a jihadi with the radical Salafist movement.
> 
> That summer, Mr. Mootoo visited Mr. Yoon, but the Canadian said he didn’t want the human-rights group to lobby on his behalf. “He didn’t want Amnesty to campaign for him so I have to respect that,” Mr. Mootoo said in a telephone interview Friday from Paris.
> 
> The fate of Mr. Yoon’s friends took longer to emerge. They had ended up with the militants of Mr. Belmokhtar, who had kidnapped the Canadian diplomats four years before. Having splintered from AQIM, Mr. Belmokhtar’s group now called themselves the Al-Mulathameen brigade and “Those Who Sign with Blood.”
> 
> Travelling from northern Mali to Algeria via the Libyan desert, the two Canadians and other militants arrived at the In Amenas gas field just before dawn on Jan. 16. They fired at two buses of workers, then stormed the living quarters, dragging out workers, targeting Westerners, killing those who tried to escape and rigging others with explosives.
> 
> The following evening, a member of Those Who Sign with Blood called a Mauritanian news agency, Agence Nouakchott d’Information, and revealed that the terrorist commando included militants from Canada. The bloody raid ended with a standoff with Algerian security forces and the death of 38 hostages and 29 terrorists.
> 
> Survivors told reporters one of the terrorists had fair hair and spoke fluent English. While the Algerian prime minister quickly alleged that two Canadians played a key role in the hostage taking, it would only be in March that the RCMP confirmed their nationality and this week that the police force acknowledged Mr. Medlej and Mr. Katsiroubas had died there.
> 
> For Mr. Yoon, freedom may come by the end of this year since his sentence is up in December, Mr. Mootoo said, adding that the Canadian is being held in relatively decent surroundings, has regular meals and is able to pray.
> 
> In an interview Friday night with the CBC from his cell in Mauritania, Mr. Yoon denied the allegations against him and said he was shocked at the news his friends were involved in the attack. He also complained of maltreatment, saying, “I’ve been beaten, I’ve been tortured, and I’m still sick, and I still don’t see any medical attention, I don’t see any help from the Canadian government in my release.”
> 
> Mr. Yoon’s older brother said he spoke with him many times over the phone, as recently as last weekend, when he gained assurances that “everything was fine.”
> 
> “I hope Aaron comes back and clears all of this up,” he said. “We’re waiting for his call.”
> 
> 
> _With reports from Colin Freeze, Rich Cash and Daniel Leblanc_


----------



## GAP

It's interesting as a feel nice piece about the poor Canadian boys led astray, but somehow I don't see them as misdirected. They made their choices.


----------



## PMedMoe

And of course, Mr. Yoon is now saying that the government didn't offer him any help.....   :

Canadian jailed in Mauritania says Canada didn't help, sources disagree:report

Citing unnamed sources, CBC News says Aaron Yoon — who reportedly travelled abroad with two Canadians killed during a terrorist seige in Algeria — has been visited nine times by Canadian consular officials.

The report has the sources saying Yoon urged officials not to tell his family in Canada about his situation, a request the government has to abide by due to the Privacy Act.

More at link


----------



## Edward Campbell

In addition to a possible fourth London ON youth being involved in the Algeria gas plant bombing, the _Toronto Star_ is reporting that a former York University student may have been part of a team of suicide bombers who attacked Mogadishu on Sunday.

The _Star_ says that _"intelligence, police and government sources in Mogadishu and Ottawa told the Star that they were investigating reports that Mahad Ali Dhore was one of the nine Al Shabab militants who stormed the capital’s courthouse Sunday as part of the well-co-ordinated attack, which included a separate car bomb targeting Turkish aid workers."_


----------



## Edward Campbell

And another Canadian _jihadi_ speaks out, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/03/na0504-gd-terror/


> From a super-maximum prison cell, Canadian convicted terrorist describes his ‘gradual’ radicalization
> 
> Gary Dimmock, Postmedia News
> 
> Last Updated: 13/05/04
> 
> OTTAWA — The first Canadian charged under the country’s post-9/11 anti-terrorism laws has condemned both the Boston bombings and an alleged al-Qaeda-inspired plot to attack a VIA passenger train for targeting civilians and says if the radicalization of the accused was anything like his own, it would have been a “gradual” process driven by news of suffering in their homelands at the hands of Western troops in an online age that connected them with other young Muslims ready to take up arms.
> 
> “For me, it was gradual. There was no moment of enlightenment,” Momin Khawaja told the Ottawa Citizen.
> 
> Khawaja, born and mostly raised in Ottawa, is serving life in a super-maximum prison after he was found guilty in 2008 of participating in, contributing to, financing and facilitating a group of British Islamist extremists plotting to bomb London in 2004 and wage a wider jihad against the West.
> 
> In his first interview since his 2004 arrest, Khawaja said the pair accused in the VIA plot were wrong to “harm innocent civilians and not military combatants.”
> 
> He noted that he was days away from booking a flight to go fight alongside insurgents in either Afghanistan or Iraq when he was arrested at the Department of Foreign Affairs, where he worked on contract as a software developer.
> 
> News footage and newspaper headlines of civilians getting killed in the wars weighed on him.
> 
> “It was upsetting to me because I connected to that region. It was a difficult time and there was a lot going on in the world. In a war, you have two sides and you pick a side. I was prepared to go help defend individuals with the tribal groups.”
> 
> He couldn’t escape the news of civilian deaths in war zones. It found him at the gym and the mosque. “Everyone was talking about it. ‘Did you see about the deaths at the wedding procession, or did you hear about the bombing of the market?’ ” said Khawaja, now 34.
> 
> It hit him harder than most at his mosque, where he taught up to 40 children and teens every weekend.
> 
> “I was drawn to the militant ideology.”
> 
> He then sought out like-minded Muslims on the Internet. “You don’t just stumble upon what I would call ‘popular interest groups.’ ”
> 
> “I felt a connection with these people and, in my mind, it was a good channel for my energy or output at the time,” he said.
> 
> The convicted terrorist said he was also drawn to the insurgents’ fitness regime and looked at it as a goal to stay in good shape. “It seemed suitable,” he said.
> 
> “I also felt that I needed to help these people under a military war. I wanted to help individuals defending themselves. In any military, they train their soldiers to stay fit so they can fight.”
> 
> “I had no bad intentions, and my family knows that,” he added.
> 
> Khawaja had been to Pakistan — his father’s homeland — and said being close to hostilities affected him. So much so that he found time away from his fiancee to train at a paramilitary camp in Pakistan, where he fired more rounds than he could count. He said the terrain of the training camp reminded him of Gatineau Park and riverside stretches of the Ottawa neighbourhood where he lived.
> 
> He said he trained alongside a dozen young men, all willing to risk their lives to one day fight alongside the insurgents.
> 
> While he was convicted on several terrorism charges, he was not found guilty in the 2004 British plot to bomb nightclubs, and prosecutors introduced no evidence to show he knew anything about the planned bombing.
> 
> In fact, he said he thought he was developing what authorities dubbed the Hi-Fi Digimonster, not to detonate bombs in London, but to set off improvised explosive devices in the Middle East against what he called “military combatants” such as NATO troops.
> 
> He said he wanted to fight against U.S. control of Middle East oil resources.
> 
> Khawaja, who did not testify at his trial, also wanted to set the record straight about the name of the remote detonator he built in his bedroom at his parents’ home.
> 
> “I did not coin the phrase Hi-Fi Digimonster. The cops did that.”
> 
> He said that he never gave it a name but referred to it as The Buzzer.
> 
> He said The Buzzer had several uses, and “only one of its intended uses was to detonate improvised explosive devices in a war region.”
> 
> He said it would never have been used against civilian targets, but exclusively against military combatants.
> 
> Khawaja said his radicalization was largely enabled by the Internet, where he hooked up with others prepared for jihad.
> 
> He used draft email exchanges with co-conspirators and said jihad videos on the Internet also influenced him.
> 
> “Today, for youngsters, it would have a lot to do with the Internet,” he said.
> 
> These days, Khawaja is a world away from the online world he used to frequent.
> 
> “I’ve overcome my need for the Internet. I have been without the Internet for 10 years and my life is no worse for it,” he said.
> 
> But for a few years living in Saudi Arabia as a child, Khawaja was raised in Ottawa, where he fit in well, in and outside school.
> 
> He said his childhood was pretty normal, and he excelled in high school, where he once scored the second-highest in an Ontario-wide math exam.
> 
> There was a basketball net in his driveway, a souped-up car and plenty of hip hop music. But he traded in cars and chasing girls for a religious life, one that had him praying five times a day rather than sleeping in and missing morning prayer.
> 
> He spent his free time at the mosque, which in 2004 was still a small house where they prayed on the basement floor.
> 
> He taught at the mosque on the weekends and remembers hearing stories of fellow Muslims being subjected to racist taunts.
> 
> After the September 2001 attacks in the United States, the backlash against Muslims got so bad that attendance at Friday prayers at Khawaja’s mosque was reduced by half.
> 
> They were scared in their own neighbourhood after a 15-year-old Muslim boy was beaten unconscious by a gang of white teens in what was found to be a hate crime in 2001.
> 
> Khawaja heard more and more stories of fellow Muslims being taunted in the community, and while no slurs targeted him directly, he developed a deep connection to those subjected to hate.
> 
> “I don’t hate any individual. I may dislike some of their qualities, but I don’t hate individuals,” he said.
> 
> Khawaja knew enough about guns that he had several registered weapons in his bedroom at his parents’ house, and he fired many rounds at a rifle range in Ottawa’s west end.
> 
> He blames U.S. foreign policy and wars in Afghanistan and Iraq for prompting Muslim men to radicalize and cause harm in a deadly revenge campaign.
> 
> Khawaja was found guilty in October 2008. Three days before the court date for his sentencing hearing, in March 2009, he called home and asked that they get some honey, good meat and the last Star Wars film, which he had missed because he was in jail awaiting trial. He and his family figured he’d just get time served and they’d be celebrating his release at the same home the Mounties stormed with guns drawn in 2004.
> 
> But he got 101/2 years, and later, an appeal court increased that sentence to life in prison.
> 
> His mother, Azra, expressed relief that he was not convicted in the London terror plot, which she called “those dirty things.” Prosecutors, trying Khawaja for a plot that was never executed, wanted the judge to sentence him up to 50 years in prison.
> 
> He is up for parole next year but he says he will not apply and will waive his right to a parole board hearing. He said he’s resigned to the fact he will never get parole if he doesn’t get a transfer from the country’s super-maximum facility. He would have a much better chance at winning parole if he got a transfer to a medium-security prison, but that is unlikely.
> 
> In fact, Khawaja has for years been denied a transfer to another prison.
> 
> He now spends at least 23 hours a day in an isolation cell. He is fed through a meal slot and has no contact with the outside world except monthly visits from his parents.
> 
> But he doesn’t complain about prison, let alone its food. He said the Halal meal, dubbed the Khawaja Diet for its low salt, comes with a dessert cake that makes his eyes light up.
> 
> He spends most of his days working out in his cell, curling any weight he can find including milk bags filled with water, and doing pushups and sit ups. He also goes for what he calls “walks” that have him pacing the length of his prison cell.
> 
> He can do it for hours with his eyes closed. “I have never hit my forehead on the wall.”
> 
> He follows the news by reading the Montreal Gazette, and though he has a television, he says he rarely watches it. He prays a lot and reads fitness magazines to pass the time and has spent countless hours detailing his life in writing for his case-management officer.
> 
> He can go under escort to the prison yard once a day but he sometimes takes a pass.
> 
> He has also taken university correspondence courses, including history.
> 
> While a model inmate, he has been in isolation for more than a year. He lost contact with other inmates after he was splashed with boiling water by a prisoner.
> 
> He doesn’t know what prompted the attack but said, “In here, a lot of the inmates are not educated and it could be something small or someone telling them to act like that,” he said.
> 
> Postmedia News




Mr. Khawaja's comments are, doubtless, self serving but they are also instructive about "how" young Canadians can become radicalized. There aren't any "root causes," just impressionable young men bombarded with information which they are insufficiently mentally disciplined to process. One point that resonates with me: prisons - Mr. Khawaja, commenting on his fellow inmates, says, "In here, a lot of the inmates are not educated and it could be something small or someone telling them to act like that;” data from the US, a couple of years ago, said that Islam was the fastest growing religion in prisons.


----------



## OldSolduer

We have not seen, at least in my jail, an upsurge in conversion to Islam.
 We did have one about five years ago, but he was murdered a few years ago.


----------



## Teager

I find it very ironic that this guy says killing civilians is wrong and that the devices he has created were for NATO troops. We all know insurgents kill and injure plenty of civilians with there IED's and sucide bombers. Yes, NATO troops have had situations where civilians have been killed too. I think he misses the point that this is a war and unfortunatly civilians do get killed from both sides. To blame NATO soley on civilian deaths shows that he is unable to admit the insurgent side is just as responsible for causing this if not more. Not to mention the many deaths and executions the taliban did to the civilian population long before the war. Hopefully he can learn some of this through his history course. Just my  :2c:


----------



## larry Strong

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We have not seen, at least in my jail, *an upsurge in conversion to Islam*.
> We did have one about five years ago, but he was murdered a few years ago.



Probably has something to do with the fact that a large amount of the US inmates are African American who would be more likely to convert to islam.



larry


----------



## OldSolduer

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Probably has something to do with the fact that a large amount of the US inmates are African American who would be more likely to convert to islam.
> 
> 
> 
> larry



I was going to mention that the majority of our inmates are aboriginal, Metis and Caucasian, with a smattering of those of African descent.

In any case , the aboriginal people have their own belief system, plus they really don't like some other races.....


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Daily Mail_:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330180/Woolwich-attacks-Two-men-arrested-offensive-Twitter-comments-Lee-Rigbys-death.html




But others are commenting; first: Alan Johnson, Editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region, Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM), professor of democratic theory and practice, editorial board member of Dissent magazine, and a Senior Research Associate at The Foreign Policy Centre in this *opinion* oiece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Telegraph_:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/


> We need to talk about Islamism
> 
> By Alan Johnson
> 
> Last updated: May 23rd, 2013
> 
> If I had slept through yesterday, woken up this morning, and gone online, I might have thought the EDL beheaded someone. There is a lot of displacement on Twitter and FB, as if it's all too politically difficult and socially awkward to talk about the killers' ideology, or the place of religion in that ideology. So we talk instead about the EDL, or John Reid, or drones, or "the religion of peace" or say "Christians kill too" or "what about Anders Breivik", or, well, anything but the brute fact that the murderers, like so very many before them, shouted "Allahu Akbar".
> 
> Of course we need to condemn every form of racist backlash and seek unity between Muslims and non-Muslims against extremism of all kinds. And much of the response, beginning with those truly heroic women who risked their lives to protect that young man's body from further mutilation, has shown the best of us, just as our reaction to 7/7 did. But it isn't enough. We need to discuss the elephant in the room – the radical and sectarian, often violent, and sometimes fascistic political ideology and global movement of Islamism.
> 
> Why? Because we are fighting against a religiously inspired ideology, jihadism, but we don't want to talk about religion. There are many reasons for our reticence but here are three for starters: two are unattractive, while one is laudable, if misplaced.
> 
> First, we are frightened to talk freely.
> 
> Not, hitherto, because we fear that our throats will be slit, although since the Rushdie Affair that fear has produced much artistic self-censorship, as the artist Grayson Perry once had the courage to admit. No, intellectual self-censorship begins elsewhere, in the fear of losing one's place in the warmth of the tribe, huddled together by the fire. We fear that if we look too closely or think too clearly, or talk too much about the problem of Islamism, and the connections as well as the separations between it and Islam, then we will be sent into the cold – shunned by colleagues, not invited to this dinner party, or that conference. We may even face social death itself by being called "Islamophobic". The university today is a stultifyingly conformist institution, reminiscent of those old Soviet-era "cultural associations". The standard version, the line, is policed rigorously. And the only accredited language in which people are allowed to speak is full of well-rehearsed evasions and apologias and exculpatory frameworks.
> 
> Second, we are ignorant of what to talk about.
> 
> In our intellectual culture religion is a mystery. That's why the commentators mostly refuse to believe religion, any religion, can have anything to do with terrorism. So they either translate terrorists screaming "Allahu Akbar!" into something they can understand – economics, foreign policy, identity – or just change the subject altogether, writing instead (not as well) about the dangers of a racist backlash, the threat of the loss of civil liberties, and so on.
> 
> In the last 24 hours I've read again and again about the need not to talk about Islam. "All religions are the same," say the commentators and politicians. Well, are they? Is anything? Yes and no. Try sentences that begin "all political parties are…" Or "all governments are…" "All sports are…" "All art is…" In every case you can say some sensible things in the rest of the sentence but you have walled yourself from most things, and most of the things that matter most, about any particular political party, government, sport, or art form. The fact is that there are all sorts of differences between religions and they matter. For example: the character and reception of the founding revelation, not least whether it is understood as mediated or not (and therefore open to reform or not). Or the content of the revelation, including the very understanding of God. Other differences include the relation to other religions, to the secular world, to human-made power and law (e.g. "Rome"). Does the religion view the very idea of a separate political realm as a kind of impiety, an affront to God? Was the prophet his own Constantine or not? The answers diverge and radically. Religions, in other words, can't just be analysed as barely distinguishable forms of the same impulse, as if we were all in an A Level Religion class. They have radically specific contents, unique and conditioning histories, and those differences matter profoundly when they bump up against the secular world.
> 
> Third, we want to protect a vulnerable minority.
> 
> The last reason for our reticence about talking about Islam and Islamism is the best one. We are frightened of giving comfort to those who would exploit the actions of radical Islamists to attack ordinary Muslims. We worry that if we link this terrorist murder to big words like Islam and Islamism then we will unleash reaction, encourage the EDL and BNP, and the victims will be ordinary Muslims. And that is a good impulse which should condition how we talk about Islam and Islamism. But it should no longer determine whether we talk about Islam and Islamism. It's all too late for that.
> 
> Muslims like the Canadian writer Irshad Manji will tell us that the people who would benefit most from a free-wheeling conversation would be ordinary Muslims who are perplexed by our society's pussy-footing indulgence of the extremism which has taken root in some places and would feel licensed to speak out. We can defend religious freedom and defend Muslim reformers, but what we can't do anymore is just change the subject.
> 
> Anyway, it's too late, for another reason. One of the fruits of globalisation is that the walls separating what concerns "us" from what concerns "them" have tumbled down. We are all "us", now. The global is local. Woolwich made plain that the fear and the violence and the grieving that has spilled over from what the Muslim political scientist Bassam Tibi calls "Islam's predicament with modernity" are now also ours to bear, and they will borne also by our children and our grandchildren. No more changing the subject.




So three reasons for not talking about Islam:

     1. We are afraid to talk about Islam, specifically, not because we fear Muslim violence but, rather, because we fear being characterized as bigots;

     2. We don't know much about religion, any religion, and we know even less about what any specific group _believes_; and

     3. We want to protect a minority from slander.

But, Islam - _ordinary_ Islam - does have a "predicament with modernity" and it is, now, our predicament, too.

I am, to a greater or less degree, guilty of all three _fears_, but, mainly, I think No. 2 is my main problem. How can I fairly comment on something about which I am abysmally ignorant?


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But others are commenting; first: Alan Johnson, Editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region, Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM), professor of democratic theory and practice, editorial board member of Dissent magazine, and a Senior Research Associate at The Foreign Policy Centre in this *opinion* oiece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Telegraph_:
> 
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/
> 
> So three reasons for not talking about Islam:
> 
> 1. We are afraid to talk about Islam, specifically, not because we fear Muslim violence but, rather, because we fear being characterized as bigots;
> 
> 2. We don't know much about religion, any religion, and we know even less about what any specific group _believes_; and
> 
> 3. We want to protect a minority from slander.
> 
> But, Islam - _ordinary_ Islam - does have a "predicament with modernity" and it is, now, our predicament, too.
> 
> I am, to a greater or less degree, guilty of all three _fears_, but, mainly, I think No. 2 is my main problem. How can I fairly comment on something about which I am abysmally ignorant?




And Terry Glavin chimes in in this *opinion* piece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/Column+Moral+illiterates+weigh+Woolwich/8426785/story.html


> Column: Moral illiterates weigh in on Woolwich
> 
> By Terry Glavin, Ottawa Citizen
> 
> May 24, 2013
> 
> It has become a disgusting habit of contemporary journalism that every time some deranged yob goes off the deep end with a carving knife shouting Allahu akbar, a battalion of television crews surrounds and lays siege to the local mosque until heartfelt on-air disavowals and loud declarations of civic loyalty are extracted from whichever hapless imam happens to answer the doorbell.
> 
> This really needs to stop.
> 
> It is not the fault of the Muslim mainstream nor any gruesome network of dingbat back street ayatollahs that a commonplace trope of the popular culture insists that the so-called West is at war with the so-called Muslim World, and that consequently anytime some lunatic who thinks he’s a Muslim goes on a shooting or kettle-bombing spree in any one of the NATO countries, we should take it as form of understandable retaliation.
> 
> It is that caste of moral illiterates among the celebrity opinion-arbiters of the popular culture that has established this imbecility as, like, central to the discourse. If it’s grovelling apologies and pledges of fealty we want, we should be dragging them out of that crowd and giving our harmlessly devout Muslim neighbours a rest for once.
> 
> I mean, I ask you. Before the blood of 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby had even dried on that street in the South London borough of Woolwich Tuesday, the grotesque American gasbag Michael Moore was trying to make a cheap laugh out of it by being facetious with his 1.5 million plus Twitter followers: “I am outraged that we can’t kill people in other counties without them trying to kill us!”
> 
> Here’s former London mayor Ken Livingstone doing exactly the same sort of thing. Building himself an escape route out of all the usual preamble stuffing — of course we support the police in their investigations, our thoughts are with the family, of course we are all outraged — Livingstone gives us this: “In 2002, before the invasion of Iraq, the security services warned the prime minister, Tony Blair, that this would make Britain a target for terrorist attacks. We are still experiencing the dreadful truth of this warning.”
> 
> Ian Leslie, author of Born Liars, Why We Can’t Live Without Deceit, answered Livingstone’s obscenity by usefully noticing that the great Muslim revenge orgy that Livingstone and his type have been predicting for the past decade or so has never materialized. All we have seen are such deranged losers as the Boston Marathon bombers and cretins with Sarf London accents and machetes and a rusted gun that didn’t work.
> 
> “The simple reason is that most Muslims, like most everyone, are not potential terrorists just waiting to be activated by the action of a government,” Leslie pointed out Thursday. “It takes Ken-levels of parochialism and self-obsession to imagine that they are.”
> 
> In the Guardian newspaper, that once-sturdy clarion of robust left-wing analysis, the American pseudo-progressive Glenn Greenwald offers up harmony to Livingstone’s melody line in a column that exploits the fuzzy timidities around the definition and the common use of the term “terrorism,” and he does so in such a way as to completely normalize what he claims is not merely “Muslim” violence, but justifiable Muslim violence.
> 
> “It is very hard to escape the conclusion that, operationally, the term has no real definition at this point beyond ‘violence engaged in by Muslims in retaliation against western violence toward Muslims’.”
> 
> Retaliation? Of course, the throat-clearing, the obligatory concession that “highlighting this causation doesn’t remotely justify the acts.”
> 
> Well, how nice to have that cleared up. But it is nonetheless “the causation” that Greenwald slips in without having the courage to make the case for it. The problem, the root cause, indeed the proximate cause is “western violence against Muslims.” There it is. It’s our fault.
> 
> Can you imagine some imam getting away with saying something like that? Of course you can’t.
> 
> We have had this sort of thing in Canada, too. When the Toronto Star’s Haroon Siddiqui put himself to the work of outlining the acceptable liberal-establishment opinion about the RCMP’s busting-up of a plot to bomb the Parliament buildings in the summer of 2010, the headline on Siddiqui’s homily says it all well enough: “To tackle domestic terrorism, end foreign wars.”
> 
> Terrorism is what we should expect, Siddiqui declared. It’s because of Afghanistan. The Toronto 18? That wasn’t a case of demented young men looking for adventure in a culture where it’s positively cool to assert that the “West” is at war with “Islam.” It’s simply because they were Muslims, and because of Afghanistan, we’re expected to believe. The convicted terrorist Said Namouh of Montreal? Our fault.
> 
> Guy’s a Muslim. We’re in Afghanistan. Ottawa’s own Momin Khawaja, convicting of plotting mayhem with British jihadists? It was because he is a Muslim and we’re in Afghanistan.
> 
> Do note that it isn’t some imam in some dingy mosque carrying on like that, although now and then there will be one of those, too. Note as well that the overwhelming majority of Afghans, and the overwhelming majority of Afghan-Canadians, supported NATO’s intervention, and most of these people are, as it happens, Muslims.
> 
> Note well that these idiocies about blowback and retaliation do not generally come from the mosques at all. It’s the sort of rubbish that comes from out of the mouths of moral illiterates.
> 
> It should stop.
> 
> _Terry Glavin is an author and journalist whose most recent book is Come From the Shadows._
> 
> © Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen




And, further, Terry Glavin comments on both his column and Alan Johnson's (in the post just preceding this one) in this commentary which is also reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Ottawa Citizen_

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/05/24/fibbing-about-terrorism-badgering-muslims/


> Fibbing About Terrorism & Badgering Muslims
> 
> Posted by: Terry Glavin
> 
> May 24, 2013
> 
> Alan Johnson is quite right, of course. It shouldn’t take a couple of deranged yobs howling Allahu Akbar and hacking to death the 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby in broad daylight on Wednesday in the South London borough of Woolwich to make it obvious. “We need to discuss the elephant in the room – the radical and sectarian, often violent, and sometimes fascistic political ideology and global movement of Islamism. Why? Because we are fighting against a religiously inspired ideology, jihadism, but we don’t want to talk about religion.”
> 
> This reluctance to get serious about that conversation is the source of so much fuzziness and reticence and timidity about the intimately related matter of “terrorism.” I’ve been banging on about this dangerous incoherence for quite some time and I touched on the subject again only a couple of weeks ago in the Ottawa Citizen. Just for starters, in Canada’s case, Section 83.01(1)(b) of the Criminal Code fails to distinguish between acts of violence that are unambiguously intended for terrorist mayhem and legitimate acts of revolutionary violence necessary to the purpose of regime change in state-terrorist tyrannies like that of Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. There is a difference.
> 
> Ever since September 11 there has been a legitimate argument about which is more destructive to open societies: the menace of Johnson’s “often violent and sometimes fascistic political ideology” that usually goes by the name terrorism, or the craven and supine apologetics for Islamist crackpotism that form such central motifs of liberal establishment opinion about it.
> 
> In my Ottawa Citizen column today I notice how moral illiteracy defines the way such reliably creepy arbiters of hip opinion as the Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald and the American celebrity bullshit artist Michael Moore are responding to the Woolwich atrocity. Michael Moore tries to get a laugh out of his Twitter followers about it, in his usual cheap and vulgar way, but it is only the fuzzy timidities around the definition and the common use of the term “terrorism” that allow Greenwald to so easily and completely normalize what he presents as perfectly understandable Muslim revenge violence.
> 
> The “causation” that Greenwald slips in without having the courage to make the case for it, the root cause, indeed the proximate cause of Wednesday’s atrocity, is “western violence against Muslims.” There it is. Wednesday’s outage was retaliation. It’s “our” fault, because “we” have been so mean to “them.” Can you imagine some Etobicoke imam getting away with saying something like that? Of course you can’t. He’d be run out of town on a bus by the good Muslims of Etobicoke.
> 
> I’m not so certain that occasional security lapses with tragic consequences are really the greater threat to our civil liberties and our sovereignty than demands for our outright capitulation all trussed up to look cool and sophisticated, as in this 2010 Haroon Siddiqui homily under the helpfully brazen headline To tackle domestic terrorism, end foreign wars. I’ve always thought it strange that the Toronto Star will shout and yell about the privatization of government services, but subcontracting Canada’s foreign policy to the Toronto 18? Hey, we’re cool with that.
> 
> My case is that it’s not “the Muslims” who have any explaining to do about the commonplace trope that the so-called West is at war with the so-called Muslim World, and that anytime some depraved and bloodthirsty lunatic who fancies himself as an aggrieved Muslim goes on a rampage in any one of the NATO countries we should take it as understandable, which is to say rational, behaviour. It is mainly that caste of moral illiterates among the celebrity opinion-arbiters of popular culture that has established this imbecility as, like, central to the discourse, man. It’s that lot that has some explaining to do. We might badger them for a change and give our innocently devout Muslim neighbours a rest for once, is my point.
> 
> Alan Johnson is quite right. It’s just that the question isn’t about Islam so much as it is about Islamism, which almost always takes on some form of terrorism. It’s not about “us” versus some Muslim “them.”
> 
> Johnson: “One of the fruits of globalisation is that the walls separating what concerns “us” from what concerns “them” have tumbled down. We are all “us”, now. The global is local. Woolwich made plain that the fear and the violence and the grieving that has spilled over from what the Muslim political scientist Bassam Tibi calls “Islam’s predicament with modernity” are now also ours to bear, and they will borne also by our children and our grandchildren. No more changing the subject.”
> 
> And no more excuse-making for wanton barbarism, either.




There is no need for further comments from me except to say that I agree with Terry Glavin. Islam is a religion, just one of many, and I have no serious qualms with any of them, so long as they stay in their temples, churches, synagogues, basilicas, mosques and cathedrals; _Islamism_ is *NOT* a religion, it is a culturally based _movement_, and one which is, broadly and generally, wantonly barbaric and, therefore, one which we should and, I think, can eradicate.


----------



## George Wallace

While the Western World Sleeps.

Here is an interesting Documentary:  

The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America 

More recent info at:

www.thethirdjihad.com

More insight into the above at: 

A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad'



Some insight at the situation in the UK found in this documentary:

My Brother the Islamist, by Tree Surgeon turned film-maker Robb Leech.


----------



## George Wallace

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Well this time the flames of speculation were right. Islam gets a pass in the UK while anything against it is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Pretending it doesn't is dishonest. One day the UK will wake up and find itself an Islamic state if it doesn't start addressing the problem soonest.



The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us.  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.

Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America

If you visit the website, The Third Jihad, you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad', you will find more insight.

Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life?  

I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I don't want to talk about Islam. 

I want humans to exist peacefully with one another. 
When a human behaves in contradiction to the greater good of mankind as a race, ie shooting up schools hacking up people in the street planning terror attacks, i want them removed from the public. I don't care why they claim to have done what they have done. 

To me the why is inconsequential. I don't want them killing humans to inadvertently give them a platform to get their message out, even post humorously. By telling the murderers story were setting the next killer with a story up to take the stage.


----------



## 2 Cdo

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us.  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.
> 
> Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America
> 
> If you visit the website, The Third Jihad, you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad', you will find more insight.
> 
> Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life?
> 
> I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.



I agree 100% George.


----------



## Jed

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us.  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.
> 
> Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America
> 
> 
> If you visit the website, The Third Jihad, you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad', you will find more insight.
> 
> Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life?
> 
> I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.





I also agree with this. Let us, very vocally, speak out against the culture of Islamism and not against the religion of Islam.


----------



## Jed

In fact, let us actively oppose with a view to eradicate 'The culture of Islamism' and to leave the religion of 'Islam' to its own devices.


----------



## Kirkhill

To further address the difference between the broad and the narrow:

Christians went through a reformation and came out of the process fairly well.

But

The reformation, I would argue, was spurred in large part, by a small sector of society that felt the Catholics were spending too much time building pleasure domes in Rome and not enough time doing God's Work - Burning Witches.  We spent a hundred years and more in Scotland, doing that very thing, before we gave it up for a bad job and settled down to do God's real Work - selling American tobacco to the French and Indian opium to the Chinese.


----------



## George Wallace

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I don't want to talk about Islam.



We are not talking about Islam.  We are talking about Islamists.  Quite a difference.  Islamists are those who want to totally dominate the world with their views of the Quran.  They will seek any means to bring this about, including extreme forms of violence through to the subtle populating of all nations populaces through procreation.  They are the radicals who are not free thinkers, who believe that the word of God was written solely in the Quran and it is "black and white, with no shades of grey" even if there are contradictions in it.  Those contradictions are then overridden in the later chapters which state that forceful use of violence and murder of non-believers (non-Muslim and Muslim alike) are the way to world domination by their form of Islam.



			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I want humans to exist peacefully with one another.
> When a human behaves in contradiction to the greater good of mankind as a race, ie shooting up schools hacking up people in the street planning terror attacks, i want them removed from the public. I don't care why they claim to have done what they have done.
> 
> To me the why is inconsequential. I don't want them killing humans to inadvertently give them a platform to get their message out, even post humorously. By telling the murderers story were setting the next killer with a story up to take the stage.



Western society, over the centuries, has evolved to be relatively peaceful and accepting of multiple cultures and religions.  The Islamists, although their religion is a relative latecomer to the religious scene, believe that theirs is the only true religion and the only one that should exist.  They have not evolved into a truly peaceful and accepting society as others have.  Their blind faith in their beliefs have separated them from modern societies, including those in most Muslim states.  They regress, rather than progress.  Violence is their primary choice to bring about their desires to conquer the world.  

It is interesting to watch some of the methods that they use to convert and radicalize new members into their fold.  My Brother The Islamist gives us some insight into how this is happening in Britain.  The Third Jihad (links in above posts), also shows how the prison population in the United States is a ripe recruiting ground for the Islamists.  

Wanting to live in peace comes at a price.  You have made the choice to "Serve" to protect the people of Canada.  You should not close your eyes to possible threats from within, nor hide your head in the sand and hope it will go away.  One of our past Prime Ministers was very adept at ignoring serious issues and hoping that they would just go away.  He never solved the problems, and just let them fester to come back larger and more dangerous in the future.   Let's not follow his example.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> To further address the difference between the broad and the narrow:
> 
> Christians went through a reformation and came out of the process fairly well.
> 
> But
> 
> The reformation, I would argue, was spurred in large part, by a small sector of society that felt the Catholics were spending too much time building pleasure domes in Rome and not enough time doing God's Work - Burning Witches.  We spent a hundred years and more in Scotland, doing that very thing, before we gave it up for a bad job and settled down to do God's real Work - selling American tobacco to the French and Indian opium to the Chinese.




The Christians had their reformation about 1,500 years after their religion was established; Islam has been around for about 1,400 years now so it's probably ripe for some of the same.

I have to repeat that I don't know enough about Islam to suggest how a reformation might work but I like to think it might come about in reaction to the _Arabization_ of Islam in Asia. I fantasize that a revolt might be ignited by an Asian scholar, perhaps a woman like one I met in Malaysia about a year ago ...

This woman - who would live in one of the two "Chinese" provinces of predominantly Muslim Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur and Penang) - would speak out, at public meetings, in the newspapers and on TV. "Arabs are barbarians," she would say, "and they have nothing to teach us. The requirements to make our worship of our god more and more Arabic has nothing at all to do with Islam and everything to do with rich Arabs trying to foist their backwards culture on us. We do not not to read the holy Qur'an in Arabic; you and I can understand it just as well in Malay or English or even Chinese. I am an educated woman - better educated than most _imans_ and _mullahs_, certainly better educated than any who come from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or, god forbid, Pakistan - and I have read the Qur'an and I understand it and I can debate it with any _mufti_ or _faqih_. We can decide, we Asians, for ourselves how to live together ~ men and women, Malays and Chinese, Muslims and Buddhists ~ in harmony and how to worship our gods, each in our own ways, in peace. The Arabs bring us misery and discord; their rules ~ which are *NOT* found in the holy Qur'an ~ denigrate our cultural traditions and revile half of us, the women. We are an enlightened, civilized people, the Arabs are not; they are backwards boors and we need them out of our mosques, out of our law courts and universities and out of our political processes."


----------



## cupper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We are not talking about Islam.  We are talking about Islamists.  Quite a difference.  Islamists are those who want to totally dominate the world with their views of the Quran.  They will seek any means to bring this about, including extreme forms of violence through to the subtle populating of all nations populaces through procreation.  They are the radicals who are not free thinkers, who believe that the word of God was written solely in the Quran and it is "black and white, with no shades of grey" even if there are contradictions in it.  Those contradictions are then overridden in the later chapters which state that forceful use of violence and murder of non-believers (non-Muslim and Muslim alike) are the way to world domination by their form of Islam.
> 
> Western society, over the centuries, has evolved to be relatively peaceful and accepting of multiple cultures and religions.  The Islamists, although their religion is a relative latecomer to the religious scene, believe that theirs is the only true religion and the only one that should exist.  They have not evolved into a truly peaceful and accepting society as others have.  Their blind faith in their beliefs have separated them from modern societies, including those in most Muslim states.  They regress, rather than progress.  Violence is their primary choice to bring about their desires to conquer the world.
> 
> It is interesting to watch some of the methods that they use to convert and radicalize new members into their fold.  My Brother The Islamist gives us some insight into how this is happening in Britain.  The Third Jihad (links in above posts), also shows how the prison population in the United States is a ripe recruiting ground for the Islamists.
> 
> Wanting to live in peace comes at a price.  You have made the choice to "Serve" to protect the people of Canada.  You should not close your eyes to possible threats from within, nor hide your head in the sand and hope it will go away.  One of our past Prime Ministers was very adept at ignoring serious issues and hoping that they would just go away.  He never solved the problems, and just let them fester to come back larger and more dangerous in the future.   Let's not follow his example.



You are not talking about Islamists. You are talking about Radical Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamic Extremists. A microscopic portion of people who have taken aspects of their own religion and perverted them to justify their own twisted world view. A group that feeds on the ignorant, the vulnerable and the hard-done-by to join their movement to further their cause.

I've worked with several people, both men and women, who are Muslims. Some devout, some secular. They come from various parts of the Muslim world, Asian, African, Middle Eastern. To a person that all held the same view that Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance. Each one  also agreed that the problem is that there needs to be an awakening of it's followers to the reality of today's global culture, and move away from the 12th Century views. 

And to say that The West has evolved over the centuries to be relatively peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions is to be willfully blind at the entire history of the West. From the Crusades, to the First Inquisitions,  the Spanish Conquests, The Second Inquisitions, the Jewish purges, the Slave Trade, The Rise of Nationalism, The Holocaust, Balkan Wars and Ethnic Cleansing, Western Society has shown more than it's fair share of ignorance and intolerance of people who follow a different path in life.


----------



## cupper

And before we further devolve this thread from it's original intent, I would like to suggest that the Mods consider splitting the debate about Islam off into it's own.


----------



## George Wallace

All I can say to you cupper, is you don't know who the Islamists are, and are confusing them with non-violent Muslims.

If you think that you are the only one exposed to Muslims and the only one to have Muslim friends, acquaintances or colleagues; please don't think yourself special.  I am sure the majority of site members have as well.

As for the West's societies having evolved into RELATIVELY peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions, I tend to think they have, as opposed to your interpretation of history.  Of the many "Brush Wars" that exist today, a vast majority of them have a common factor; radical Islamists.


----------



## GnyHwy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The Christians had their reformation about 1,500 years after their religion was established; Islam has been around for about 1,400 years now so it's probably ripe for some of the same.




Wow, a religious debate.  I can't see this going well.   op:  If anything heats people up more than politics, it's religion.

That's an interesting fact that does make a lot of sense.  The fact we are shoving the "way it should be" down their throat probably isn't helping speed things up.  

I'm guessing it should happen any day now though.


----------



## Jed

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Wow, a religious debate.  I can't see this going well.   op:  If anything heats people up more than politics, it's religion.
> That's an interesting fact that does make a lot of sense.  The fact we are shoving the "way it should be" down their throat probably isn't helping speed things up.
> 
> I'm guessing it should happen any day now though.



No, this is _not_ a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.


----------



## cupper

Jed said:
			
		

> No, this is _not_ a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.



 :rofl: :goodpost: :sarcasm:

It's a debate about how some people interpret their own religion, so I think we can accept that this is at its base level a religious debate.


----------



## GnyHwy

Jed said:
			
		

> No, this is _not_ a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.



This http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html 
is a pretty good paper that speaks to the denial that religion is not involved or our unwillingness to acknowledge it as that.  Regardless of how misinformed, extreme or downright stupid these assholes are, it is the sacred texts that they are "cherry picking" their ideas from.  This is not limited to Islam, and like posted a few above, it wasn't that long ago that Christianity was doing the same; and still may be.

The whole article is a fair bit long and too big to post, but worth a read.  My favourite paragraph is - "This is a key difference for "new atheists." To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Edited to add:  I am not atheist nor theist.  I just like atheist's arguments because they remove the layers of bullshit and are not partial to any religion because of their non beliefs.


----------



## cupper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for the West's societies having evolved into RELATIVELY peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions, I tend to think they have, as opposed to your interpretation of history.



How do you explain the rise of nationalistic fervor that runs through out Europe, and has since the Early 90's? Not not just with the vocal right wing parties and followers, but even governments that put forth policies that fan the flames of anti-immigrant sentiment. France pushes its secular agenda and essentially strips all but Christians of the right to openly practice their religion. Germany treats immigrants as third class people. The Conservative Right in the US and its drum beat of anti-immigration policies.


----------



## cupper

Andrew Sullivan makes a few good points in a rebuttal of Glenn Greenwald's attempt to re-frame terrorist acts against the backdrop of what the West has done to the Muslim World.

*An Islamist Beheading In Britain, Ctd*

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/24/an-islamist-beheading-in-britain-ctd-3/



> Greenwald refuses to label the beheading in London “terrorism,” calling it just another attempt to stir paranoia against Muslims:
> 
> _[T]he term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states …_
> 
> I really have to try restrain my anger here. First off, Glenn’s adoption of the view that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan amounted to “continuous violence by western states against Muslim civilians” seems a new step toward the memes of Islamist propaganda. Does Glenn really believe that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, however flawed, were deliberate attempts to kill Muslim civilians, in the way al Qaeda deliberately targets and kills Muslim civilians?
> 
> If he does, then I beg to differ. The reason we invaded Afghanistan was not because we decided to launch a war on Islam. *It was because wealthy, Islamist, hypocritical bigots launched an unprovoked Jihadist mass murder of Western innocents from a cell based in a country run by a regime that specialized and specializes in the mass murder of other Muslims.*
> 
> *Before 9/11, America had saved Muslims in the Balkans from Christianist fanatics.* We helped liberate Muslims in Afghanistan from Soviet oppression. We continue to give vast amounts of money to Muslim countries like Egypt, and, because of our economic development and need for oil made multi-billionaires out of Saudi clerics. And the war against Saddam, though a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe, nonetheless removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet. And the sectarian murder of Muslims that followed, however the ultimate responsibility for the occupying forces, was not done by Westerners. It was done by Muslims killing Muslims. The West, moreover, is committed to removing its troops from Afghanistan by next year and is fast winding down drone strikes.
> 
> How can that legitimize a British citizen’s brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London? If we cannot call a man who does that in the name of God and finishes by warning his fellow citizens “You will never be safe” a terrorist, who would fit that description, apart, of course, in Glenn’s view, Barack Obama?
> 
> The barbarian with the machete was not born in a Muslim country or land. He was born in Britain, educated at Marshalls Park school in Romford and Greenwich University.
> He does not have a history of concern with foreign policy – or even sensitivity toward the mass murder of Muslims. There is no record of his protest against the mass murders by the Taliban – because those kinds of murders of Muslims he approves of. *He is a convert to the Sunni Islamism of Anjem Choudary, whose street thugs were involved in a melee in a London street only last week as they attacked and scuffled with Shi’a Muslims. Choudary’s group wants Sharia law imposed on the UK, a war against Shiites everywhere, the brutal subjugation of women, and suppression of every freedom Glenn cares about.* The idea that this foul, religious bigotry – when it provokes its adherents to the kind of barbarism we saw two days ago – is some kind of legitimate protest against a fast-ending war is just perverse.
> 
> I want the war in Af-Pak to end. I agree that blowback is a real problem. I was horrified by the Iraq war. I remain appalled by GTMO and the legacy of torture. But I cannot defend any analysis of what happened in London as some kind of legitimate protest against Western foreign policy rather than terrorism in its most animal-like form, created and sustained entirely by religious fanaticism which would find any excuse to murder, destroy and oppress Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of God.
> 
> They did this before 9/11 and before our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. They are doing it now in Syria in the name of the same God. These genocidal theocrats did not need to be spurred by the US and UK’s actions – although they can view those as a further inflammation. They are living out their twisted, foul faith – which requires them not merely to kill, but to hack and mutilate and dismember another human being and celebrate that fact with a glee and a pride that has absolutely nothing to do with foreign policy and everything to do with the evil lurking in the totalitarian’s soul.
> 
> I have to say I have always respected the sincerity and clarity of Greenwald’s critique of the war on terror. But his blindness to the savagery at the heart of Salafism is very hard to understand, let alone forgive.


----------



## Jed

cupper said:
			
		

> :rofl: :goodpost: :sarcasm:
> 
> It's a debate about how some people interpret their own religion, so I think we can accept that this is at its base level a religious debate.



Well if you follow this line of reasoning, then every time you say Christian or Spiritual or Higher Power or Nature Lover you are entering the realm of a religious debate. 

The preceding posts do a pretty good job of defining the difference between Islamism and the religion of Islam. Choose what ever semantics you want, just because I say western Caucasian extremist white dude doesn't mean I am talking about white supremacists who may or may not have some sort of religious beliefs.


----------



## Jed

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> This http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html
> is a pretty good paper that speaks to the denial that religion is not involved or our unwillingness to acknowledge it as that.  Regardless of how misinformed, extreme or downright stupid these assholes are, it is the sacred texts that they are "cherry picking" their ideas from.  This is not limited to Islam, and like posted a few above, it wasn't that long ago that Christianity was doing the same; and still may be.
> 
> The whole article is a fair bit long and too big to post, but worth a read.  My favourite paragraph is - "This is a key difference for "new atheists." To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".
> 
> Edited to add:  I am not atheist nor theist.  I just like atheist's arguments because they remove the layers of bullshit and are not partial to any religion because of their non beliefs.



I don't buy that line. Human beings opinions and beliefs are integral to their personality and as such to some degree are entitled to respect. Since we all have to get along together in this world we need to be able accommodate the difference in opinions and personalities. Obviously extreme social violence, ala Islamism, can not be tolerated if we expect to have peace in this world.

For the record, I have my Christian beliefs, but I don't ram them don't anyone's throat and I tolerate the beliefs of the agnostics and atheists of the world. Many who are great human beings at heart and I count as my dearest friends and relatives. I personally do not have the psychological strength to look death in the eye if all that is on the other side is nothingness.


----------



## cupper

Jed said:
			
		

> just because I say western Caucasian extremist white dude doesn't mean I am talking about white supremacists who may or may not have some sort of religious beliefs.



True, but you are being redundant by calling him Caucasian and white.  ;D

And also true, not all White Supremacists necessarily base their hatred of other races and cultures on their religious beliefs.  

Now had you added Christian Fundamentalist into the mix, we'd have a religious debate.

Anytime you add a modifier specific to a religious context, you are opening the door to discussion of that context.

In this case we are having a discussion related to the ideology of Islamism. Inherent in that ideology is the tenant of spreading Islam and more specifically its political aspects through out the Muslim World (or globally depending on your take). The Arab Spring is an example of the ideology in play.

You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.


----------



## Jed

You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.

True, Cupper. If you choose to take it there. And in retrospect the average person would probably do just that. To me, the label Islamist is not the religion Islam similar to the label pedophile wearing a priest's collar is not the same as the Catholic religion.


----------



## cupper

Jed said:
			
		

> I don't buy that line. Human beings opinions and beliefs are integral to their personality and as such to some degree are entitled to respect. Since we all have to get along together in this world we need to be able accommodate the difference in opinions and personalities. Obviously extreme social violence, ala Islamism, can not be tolerated if we expect to have peace in this world.
> 
> For the record, I have my Christian beliefs, but I don't ram them don't anyone's throat and I tolerate the beliefs of the agnostics and atheists of the world. Many who are great human beings at heart and I count as my dearest friends and relatives. I personally do not have the psychological strength to look death in the eye if all that is on the other side is nothingness.



First off, I think you missed the point of quote by the writer in the article. He is saying exactly what you are criticizing him for, that Human Beings have rights and are entitled to respect of their beliefs. However the author steps on his own scrotum by saying "Books and beliefs don't and aren't". 

Secondly, don't confuse the corrupted and violent ideology of radical Islamic fundamentalists with Islamism and the tenants of Islam. What the Bin Ladens and Al Alakis and Al Zawahiris of the world espouse and their followers cling to is not compatible with the teachings of Islam. That is what needs to be stamped out. How do you do that? That is the question that should be asked.


----------



## cupper

Jed said:
			
		

> You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.
> 
> True, Cupper. If you choose to take it there. And in retrospect the average person would probably do just that. To me, the label Islamist is not the religion Islam similar to the label pedophile wearing a priest's collar is not the same as the Catholic religion.



It's a stretch, but I'll give it to you.

I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist, it only gives some veil of credibility and justification to what they do. Rather the label that they deserve - Violent Criminal.


----------



## Jed

cupper said:
			
		

> First off, I think you missed the point of quote by the writer in the article. He is saying exactly what you are criticizing him for, that Human Beings have rights and are entitled to respect of their beliefs. However the author steps on his own scrotum by saying "Books and beliefs don't and aren't".
> 
> Secondly, don't confuse the corrupted and violent ideology of radical Islamic fundamentalists with Islamism and the tenants of Islam. What the Bin Ladens and Al Alakis and Al Zawahiris of the world espouse and their followers cling to is not compatible with the teachings of Islam. That is what needs to be stamped out. How do you do that? That is the question that should be asked.



I almost agree with you except for the above marked in orange. I think, from my readings of blogs, English translation of the Quran, etal, that a literal translation of the Quran, shows that the unchanging fundamentalist beliefs of these scum of the earth individuals, are indeed compatible with Islam.

This is not the same as fundamentalist Christians who get hung up on the old testament of the Bible and forget about the new testament.


----------



## GnyHwy

Jed said:
			
		

> I don't buy that line.



Look at it again. 





> " To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".



As I see it, the argument against religious ideals isn't to strip persons of their freedoms, but rather to give them their freedoms to do what they want.  Do what you like and practice it cordially.  To argue and target the other person is wrong, but to argue the ideas (book) and perceptions (beliefs) is perfectly rational.  This is something that "believers" can't seem to get past.  

For some reason believers take it personally when someone questions what someone wrote 100s/1000s of years ago.


----------



## cupper

Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches. 

From Wikipedia


> Islam, as with other Abrahamic religions, views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;
> 
> "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
> — Qur'an, Sura 4(An-Nisa), ayat 29 [11]
> 
> Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.
> 
> However, those who engage in Islamic terrorism, including those who attacked the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, believe that those who use suicide attacks to kill "infidels" are rewarded with seventy-two virgins in paradise. Islamic spiritualism is not attained without maintenance and forbearance of peace. Bukhari and Muslim, two of the most renowned scholars in Islam, state: "He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.". This provides an incentive for Muslims to preserve peace in order to attain higher status in the eyes of God. This applies to non-Muslims as well as Muslims as seen in the following quote by Prophet Muhammad: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I [Prophet Muhammad] will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
> 
> Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form."
> 
> The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:
> 
> Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
> —Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446
> 
> Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
> — Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670
> 
> Furthermore, Ja'far Al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide:
> 
> Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.”


----------



## Brad Sallows

The Islamists _are_ Islam.  The "peace and acceptance" - or any other stripe of reform - Muslims are the schismatics.

Christ's teachings are overwhelmingly peaceful but the religion which bears his name has been repeatedly perverted to serve tyranny and subjugation.  Mohammed's religion does not need to be twisted to serve subjugation - that is its aim.

The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.


----------



## cupper

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.



And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist,



As you are so often in the habit of using definitions from Wikipedia; how about this definition:

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]
adj
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

n
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.
> 
> From Wikipedia



Again that trustworthy source, Wikipedia.  I call BS.

Here is some more info from the Quran:



> Surah 9.5: "After the forbidden months have passed, slay the unbelievers wherever you find them; capture them, torture them, besiege them, prepare every stratagem of warfare against them..."
> 
> Surah 9.29: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden By God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion Of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, Until they pay the Jizya (a tax on infidels) With willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."



From another source:



> Examples of verses from the Quran which have been quoted to justify attacks on civilians include
> 
> 
> Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 2:216
> 
> The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; 5:33
> 
> But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 9:5
> 
> Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 9:29-30




You might note that both Surah 9.5 and Surah 9.29 do not specifically target infidels, but also includes fellow Muslims who may not follow what the Islamists consider the 'true' words of the Quran.  Surah 9.30 specifically targets other religions.

As noted in a previous posts, these are only two of over 100 Surahs that call for violence.  Surely you can not then deduce that this is truly a religion of peace and tolerance?  If you do, you have your head so far in the sand you will be raped on Man Thursday (Another hypocritical statement on their violent beliefs).


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:



Perhaps "integration" may have been a better word, but you apologist attitude should still see the intent of the statement.  If they are so unhappy/unaccepting with our way of life/culture/beliefs/religion/politics/etc. then they have the FREEDOM (in our society) to leave and go to a country where their beliefs have some common ground.   If that is too difficult for you to comprehend, then perhaps your usefulness in this discussion is over.


----------



## George Wallace

It is interesting to hear the statements from these murderers that these sorts of attacks are in retaliation to the West's military forces being in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. and their killing of Muslims in foreign lands.  If we look at recent history, we will see that Muslim fundamentalists have actually initated attacks on the West well before any Western troops were deployed in force to Muslim nations.



> Examples of attacks
> 
> •4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
> •18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
> •26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
> •24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
> •25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
> •7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
> •11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
> •13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
> •3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
> •9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
> •7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
> •24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
> •12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
> •16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
> •11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
> •3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
> •4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
> •7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
> •23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
> •29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
> •9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
> •7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.



Source


----------



## JorgSlice

Don't forget the Air India bombing.


----------



## George Wallace

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Don't forget the Air India bombing.



They were not Muslim extremists, but Sikh extremists.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm sure there are man, many _offensive_ passages in the _Torah_ and the _Christian Bible_, too. 

While the Christian, properly Protestant, _reformation_ ~ which began around 1500 CE and more or less ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 ~ was a *religious* thing it was not *exclusively* so: it was also, often dominantly, a _socio-cultural_ phenomenon about the place or role of an emerging educated, independent, middle class. Additionally, there was a _nationalist_ element that shouldn't be underestimated in Scandinavia, Britain, the Netherlands or the North German principalities.

In so far as the _"rough edges"_ of Judaism, Christianity and Islam ~ those _offensive_ passages and all that ~ the Jews and Christians "solved" them during the Enlightenment ~ which, if you accept Spinoza, Locke, Hutcheson and Hume as its "fathers," followed hot on the heels of the Reformation and, many would argue, rested upon the foundation of the Reformation.

In my view the solution to the "root causes" of _Islamism_ (or _jihadism_ or whatever we want to call the radical, violent, barbarian _movement_ that uses Islam as both a crutch and a recruiting tool) lies in a Muslim Enlightenment which, I *suspect* must also rest upon a foundation of Reformation.

If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

I have said many times that I am hoping for new _Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War_ that will sweep through the _Islamic Crescent_ - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.


----------



## George Wallace

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I have said many times that I am hoping for new _Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War_ that will sweep through the _Islamic Crescent_ - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.



Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.  Time will tell.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.




I think the causes of the most recent Iran-Iraq wars were complex, and while there was a sectarian component I, personally, doubt it was a dominant or even a very important factor. I think of Iran-Iraq wars as more like the Franco-Prussian varieties.


----------



## George Wallace

ERC

I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>And how do you define assimilation? 

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

>If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

cupper said:
			
		

> Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.
> 
> From Wikipedia



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)


----------



## Jed

recceguy said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA
> 
> From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)



Hilarious, Recceguy. Now that's a good belly laugh.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ERC
> 
> I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.




I don't know about _"hundreds of centuries"_ (tens of thousands of years) but a few (almost eight) centuries ago the Mongols swept across Iran and Iraq and there was NO religious component to that, none at all. Eventually the Mongol invaders converted to Islam, the religion of the people they had conquered.


----------



## Remius

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >And how do you define assimilation?
> 
> Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?
> 
> >If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.
> 
> 21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.



Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par.  

It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA
> 
> From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)


"lift the kilt, big hairy set of balls..."  Awesome vid.   ;D


----------



## cupper

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >And how do you define assimilation?
> 
> Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?



It was a legitimate and reasonable question. I guess it was a little much to expect the same in return.

Perhaps I should clarify: By what definition do you determine if someone has "assimilated" or "integrated" into society?

Is it when they have accepted and participated in the societal norms while still practicing their own cultural and religious tenants? 

Or is it when they have fully divested themselves of their past, essentially becoming a prototypical member of Western Society, in other words a member of the Borg.


----------



## Jed

Crantor said:
			
		

> Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par.
> 
> It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.



I disagree. Not even close to being on par with Islamism violence and its tenants.


----------



## cupper

Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html



> The old definition read as (via the US News):
> 
> "Supporter of government in accord with the laws of Islam. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."
> 
> While the new version reads a bit longer, and not unlike the immigration change, requests reporters take the time to offer more details on a case-by-case basis:
> 
> "An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam. Do not use as a synonym for Islamic fighters, militants, extremists or radicals, who may or may not be Islamists.
> 
> "Where possible, be specific and use the name of militant affiliations: al-Qaida-linked, Hezbollah, Taliban, etc. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."



And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838



> Is·lam·ism noun \is-ˈlä-ˌmi-zəm, iz-, -ˈla-; ˈiz-lə-\
> 1
> : the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam
> 2
> : a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam


----------



## cupper

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110654/post-1232002.html#msg1232002



> Examples of attacks
> 
> •4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
> •18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
> •26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
> •24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
> •25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
> •7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
> •11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
> •13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
> •3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
> •9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
> •7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
> •24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
> •12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
> •16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
> •11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
> •3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
> •4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
> •7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
> •23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
> •29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
> •9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
> •7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.



George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.


----------



## PuckChaser

Crantor said:
			
		

> But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par.



Did the IRA use the bible as justification for violence against the Brits? Just because they were Christians, doesn't mean they conducted "Christian violence". You've got 2 pretty weak examples.


----------



## cupper

The Irish "Troubles" stopped being a religious fight somewhere between the time of Cromwell and the French Revolution.

It was a fight for Irish Nationalism against the Occupation of the British. Catholic and Protestant was just a convenient line to separate the two groups.


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110654/post-1232002.html#msg1232002
> 
> George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.



Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.

I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.


----------



## Remius

You can disagree, but Christians have had 2000 years to get it out of their systems. (and even then, I'm not sure) Historically you can go back and see plenty of comparable examples.  Whether it's the KKK's public and secret lynchings and hangings, burning women at the stake because they had warts and cats or whether Islamists behead and throw acid in school girls faces.  

No religion has it's hands clean.  Religious violence is religious violence and tends to be the worst kind.  

I agree with ERC.  Islam is in need of a reformation.  One similar to what Christians went through.  Until then, it is likely that we will have to endure and face radicals in it's worst form.  How we face it though without compromising our own values is the real question.


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html
> 
> And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:
> 
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838



 :

I see your spelling with an "m" and not a "t".  IslamisT.  I am not talking about "Islamism"; but you have your slant on things and so I will leave you to it.

I would, however, like to point you to this in your link:



> As with the "illegal" definition change, this latest tweak is being framed as a victory for activists—in this case, the Council on American-Islamic Relations—who called at the start of this year for the news organization to change their style guide, which is used widely but not universally by English-language publications. In a statement, CAIR said of the change, "We believe this revision is a step in the right direction and will result in fewer negative generalizations in coverage of issues related to Islam and Muslims."



CAIR may have links to terror organizations, and refuses to denounce various organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations.  This makes CAIR suspect as stated in the final paragraph of your link:



> Some in the conservative blogosphere are less than happy about the "Islamist" change, as you might expect, given that anti-Sharia activists routinely use the term to describe CAIR itself as an extremist organization. Then again, the AP wasn't exactly in the best standing with some on the right after the "illegal immigrant" Stylebook change, or for the news organization's Pulitzer Prize-winning series on the NYPD's covert monitoring of New York Muslims.



But if you are so inclined to ignore this; fine.


----------



## cupper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.
> 
> I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.



Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.

And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.


----------



## cupper

:deadhorse: :brickwall:

I guess you and I are just going to agree to disagree.


----------



## jollyjacktar

How true, how true.


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.
> 
> And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.



Really?  We all know that there were a lot of US Marines in the US Embassy in Lebanon.  That is a fact.  Were they out fighting Lebanese?  NO they were not.  Their presence in the US Embassy in Beirut has no relevance to this argument.  Nor do any of the other Western troops who were sent to protect their diplomatic staffs.

As for the Gulf War in 1990, I seem to recall it was due to a call by the Kuwaiti Government for help and protection from an invading Iraqi army.  Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to.  It does show that these Muslim extremists can not distinguish between someone coming to their aid and someone invading.  But I guess that is 'gratitude for you'.  

I think that Dr. Zuhdi Jasser has some very sound advice, that we should be looking to other 'resources' in order to stop pumping dollars into oil producing Arab countries, and stop funding their extremist organizations.  Once the money stops, they will have fewer means to spread their religious and political vitriol views.


----------



## cupper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> *Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to*.



WTF?

Now you're just .... 

 :nevermind: Not worth going there.


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> WTF?
> 
> Now you're just ....



What?  Extrapolating what you really want to say from your posts?   Come on.  Let your inner voice out.   >


----------



## cupper

:boring:

Moving on.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

Islamic states are pursuing anti-blasphemy laws at the UN; they know the modern world and the international norms of human rights and customs.  Civilized behaviour in the 21st century is not unknown to them.  The neat thing about discovery is that it takes much less time to emulate than to discover something.  Stone-age tribes discovered in the modern era will not need 5,000 years to fully adapt to the world around them.

The Irish "troubles" stem from nationalism.  The KKK stems from racialism.  Religion in both cases is the facade and sometime excuse, not the motivator.


----------



## cupper

There was/is an element of religious intolerance with respect to the KKK. They had a history of anti-catholic views, and antisemitism was just as rampant as the racial intolerance. A lot of their views were justified from twisting various passages from the Bible to suit their needs.

But religion wasn't a significant part of their agenda to consider them religiously motivated.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.

Islam is the religion.

Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.

And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.

Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.

Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....

Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks?  

If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad."  

If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.


M.


----------



## Jed

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.
> 
> Islam is the religion.
> 
> Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.
> 
> And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.
> 
> Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.
> 
> Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....
> 
> Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks?
> 
> If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad."
> 
> If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.
> 
> 
> M.



Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.  :goodpost:


----------



## George Wallace

Jed said:
			
		

> Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.



Unfortunately that message has been out for a long time and has not sunk in yet.


----------



## Teager

This is just the smae story of the 2 accused in the VIA rail plot from the Toronto Star. At the bottom of the article this is what is said by a man from the mosque in Scarborough.

"Esseghaier was “a very nice guy, very intelligent, very humble,” Mohamed Ali told the Star earlier this month.

Jaser, he said, was also a nice guy — the kind who would lend you money or give you a ride — but he did talk every so often about radicalism, Ali said.

“I just thought it was coffee talk,” he said."

More at link http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/23/toronto_terror_plot_suspect_asks_for_defence_lawyer_who_is_guided_by_holy_book.html

So from what I understand its normal to talk about radicalism during coffee? I think this just goes to further a lot of the points above.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Colin P said:
			
		

> Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.




I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.


----------



## George Wallace

Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I don't think most of us realize the risk those people take that do stand up. Hell most people here won't stand up to tell their boss that "dumbass idea de jour" is just that.

Also having watched my own inlaws grapple with stuff, I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.


----------



## Jed

You are right about the difficulty of standing up and being counted. It never has been easy but I think if you are Muslim, this is the time it must be done. Riding the fence has gone on way to long.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Colin P said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.
Click to expand...




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.



Thanks, all, for these tidbits - I've scratched my head a lot about why we don't hear more from (what I'm guessing is) the silent majority of Muslims in the West who just want to live their lives, period.


----------



## 2 Cdo

If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???


----------



## old fart

You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....

I first watched this a year ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM

Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"

Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....


----------



## The Bread Guy

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???


If the pressure is real, it might be more like this....


			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> .... I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.


----------



## Jed

old fart said:
			
		

> You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....
> 
> I first watched this a year ago....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM
> 
> Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"
> 
> Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....



That young lady showed a lot of guts. I've been in a similar situation myself and the pucker factor can get pretty high. How long can the British people tolerate this BS? 

Where are the Brits of old that tossed Neville Chamberlain out on his arse and put in Churchill?


----------



## Edward Campbell

I *think* many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim *violence*.

We know that there was considerable, _collective blame_ levied at Muslims - it wasn't from _official_ Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to _Arabize_ their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a _Muslim Reformation_ might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.


----------



## Jed

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I *think* many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim *violence*.
> 
> We know that there was considerable, _collective blame_ levied at Muslims - it wasn't from _official_ Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.
> 
> In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to _Arabize_ their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a _Muslim Reformation_ might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.
> 
> But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.
> 
> As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.




I agree that we should not expect more of Christians vs Muslims. I think we should expect more of all peoples in our democratic nations. A whole lot more.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I recall several people living in dictatorships who believe that only they felt oppressed and were surprised to find that many felt the same way about the regime. On top of the fear of exclusion from society, you have a very real fear of very viscous thugs that will likely or want to torture you and your family and you have religious induced guilt.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Overheard a lot of racism and anti-muslim comments at a gun show this weekend.  Pretty embarrassing. It's too bad that  the actions of psychopaths can cast so many people in such a dark light.



> As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.



Totally agree.


----------



## Jed

When all freedom loving nations went to war against the likes of Hitler and Mussolini our soldiers fought against all the German and Italian soldiers of those nations not just Nazis and SS. Many good human beings were not deserving of where karma had placed them. If our battle is against Islamism, many good Muslims will pay the price as will many good Christians, Buddhists, Atheists etal.

We can not hope and wish that the battle will just go away. It is a battle that must be fought if we wish to preserve our democratic societies.

Prejudice and racism is in all people to some extent. In times of war this is often used to strengthen the resolve of combatants to do the (what should be anyway) unthinkable, take the life of an enemy. 

But, most of you have signed on the dotted line at some time in the past to fight against your nation's enemies, so this soapbox speech is redundant.

I feel for the timid and innocent peaceful Muslims, but only they can truly be in the vanguard of dealing with Muslim extremists. They will have a tough row to hoe but their collective complacency makes it imperative that democratic societies take action to eradicate this Muslim terrorist blight on mankind.


----------



## OldSolduer

:ditto: :goodpost:


Well said.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I *think* many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim *violence*.
> 
> We know that there was considerable, _collective blame_ levied at Muslims - it wasn't from _official_ Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.
> 
> In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to _Arabize_ their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a _Muslim Reformation_ might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.
> 
> But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.
> 
> As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.



Well said, ER.  I especially like the thought of keeping these hate preachers out of Canada.  We don't want to get to the state the UK finds itself in now with these assclowns causing no end of trouble and no way to get rid of them.  Any foreigner who comes here and trys to sow hate should find themselves on a one way flight back to whence the came immediately.  Just like in Monopoly, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  Immediate enforcement, no BS or waffle.  If we can't stamp them out, kick them out.


----------



## ModlrMike

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ...if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.



As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.


----------



## George Wallace

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.



Yes.  It is a sad fact that our Charter of Human Rights and our Legal System bends over backwards to protect the "Rights" of these scum.  If I had my chance to run a "Police State", I would strip them of their passports, whether they were Canadian citizens who immigrated here, or native born, and send them to an Islamist nation of my choosing.  They do not recognize our Laws, unless they are used to protect them.  They don't want to integrate into our multi-cultural society.  They want to convert us all to their religion and Sharia Law.  Then what the frack are they doing in a Western nation?  Send them to a state that reflects their beliefs.  They do not deserve to be Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Brits, Germans, Danes, Swedes, Aussies, etc.   

Is that Racism or protecting our society from violence and chaos?  It is "Harsh Love".  Everyone gets to live an existing nation, in the society that their beliefs dictate.

Then again, I will not likely be running a "Police State" in any reality.   

I have to put up with a reality that I live in a society that caters more to the perpetrators, than to the victims.  Such is our lot. eace:


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.


Then we need to counter attack the social activists.

Give concrete examples of radical preachers who immigrate here and spread their poison. Expose them for the frauds they are and deport them.

Deport the bad apples, as soon as legally possible.

For those "Canadian" who choose to live their "old country" and want a free lift home when crap hits the fan.....I say you made your own bed, you lie in it. Make your own way back to Canada.

Oh and by the way, my mum, all 92 years of her, is an immigrant. My grandad and grand up on my Dad's side were immigrants.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Political history should be enough to convince people that it doesn't take a large faction to apply enough pressure to keep a moderate majority in check and unsure of itself (the moderate majority).

>Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

Yet: Islam is a religion in which, as I understand it, the imams are unnecessary.  There is no need for any intercessor between God and one of the faithful.  The opinion of imams is a nice-to-have, not a necessity.  The Koran has been written; it can be read.  It doesn't need to be interpreted by a third party.


----------



## Remius

Gee guys, why would activists label anyone here as racist?  :


----------



## 2 Cdo

Crantor said:
			
		

> Gee guys, why would activists label anyone here as racist?  :



Exactly what race is islam?  :


----------



## cupper

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Exactly what race is islam?  :



The race to enlightenment? ;D


----------



## Colin Parkinson

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Exactly what race is islam?  :



Well the Arabs do claim they are the "true Muslims" and that everyone should follow their example as they were chosen by Allah.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair speaks out on the "problem within Islam" in this column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Mail on Sunday_:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2334560/The-ideology-Lee-Rigbys-murder-profound-dangerous-Why-dont-admit--Tony-Blair-launches-brave-assault-Muslim-extremism-Woolwich-attack.html


> The ideology behind Lee Rigby's murder is profound and dangerous. Why don't we admit it?:
> Tony Blair launches a brave assault on Muslim extremism after Woolwich attack
> 
> By TONY BLAIR
> 
> PUBLISHED: 01:01 GMT, 2 June 2013
> 
> There is only one view of the murder of Lee Rigby: horrific. But there are two views of its significance.
> 
> One is that it is the act of crazy people, motivated in this case by a perverted idea about Islam, but of no broader significance.
> 
> Crazy people do crazy things. So don’t overreact.
> 
> The other view is that this act was indeed horrible; and that the ideology which inspired it is profound and dangerous.
> I am of this latter view.
> 
> So of course we shouldn’t overreact. We didn’t after July 7, 2005. But we did act. And we were right to. The actions by our security services will undoubtedly have prevented other serious attacks.
> 
> The ‘Prevent’ programme in local communities was sensible. The new measures of the Government seem reasonable and proportionate.
> 
> However, we are deluding ourselves if we believe that we can protect this country simply by what we do here. The ideology is out there. It isn’t diminishing.
> 
> Consider the Middle East. As of now, Syria is in a state of accelerating disintegration. President Assad is brutally pulverising communities hostile to his regime. At least 80,000 have died. The refugees now total more than one million. The internally displaced are more than four million.
> 
> Many in the region believe that the Assad intention is to ethnically cleanse the Sunni from the areas dominated by his regime and then form a separate state around Lebanon. There would then be a de facto Sunni state in the rest of Syria, cut off from the wealth of the country or the sea.
> 
> The Syrian opposition is made up of many groups. The fighters are increasingly the Al Qaeda- affiliated group Jabhat al-Nusra. They are winning support, and arms and money from outside the country.
> 
> Assad is using chemical weapons on a limited but deadly scale. Some of the stockpiles are in fiercely contested areas.
> 
> The overwhelming desire of the West is to stay out of it. This is completely understandable. But we must also understand: we are at the beginning of this tragedy. Its capacity to destabilise the region is clear.
> 
> Jordan is behaving with exemplary courage, but there is a limit to the refugees it can reasonably be expected to absorb. Lebanon is now fragile as Iran pushes Hezbollah into the battle. Al Qaeda is back trying to cause carnage in Iraq and Iran continues its gruesome meddling there.
> 
> To the South in Egypt and across North Africa, Muslim Brotherhood parties are in power, but the contradiction between their ideology and their ability to run modern economies means that they face growing instability and pressure from more extreme groups.
> 
> Then there is the Iranian regime, still intent on getting a nuclear weapon, still exporting terror and instability to the West and the east of it. In sub-Saharan Africa, Nigeria is facing awful terror attacks. In Mali, France has been fighting a pretty tough battle.
> 
> And we haven’t mentioned Pakistan or Yemen. Go to the Far East and look at the western border between Burma and Bangladesh. Look at recent events in Bangladesh itself, or the Mindanao dispute in the Muslim region of the Philippines.
> 
> In many of the most severely affected areas, one other thing is apparent: a rapidly growing population. The median age in the Middle East is in the mid-20s. In Nigeria it’s 19. In Gaza, where Hamas hold power, a quarter of the population is under five.
> 
> When I return to Jerusalem soon, it will be my 100th visit to the Middle East since leaving office, working to build a Palestinian state. I see first-hand in this region what is happening.
> 
> So I understand the desire to look at this world and explain it by reference to local grievances, economic alienation and of course ‘crazy people’. But are we really going to examine it and find no common thread, nothing that joins these dots, no sense of an ideology driving or at least exacerbating it all?
> 
> There is not a problem with Islam. For those of us who have studied it, there is no doubt about its true and peaceful nature. There is not a problem with Muslims in general. Most in Britain will be horrified at Lee Rigby’s murder.
> 
> But there is a problem within Islam – from the adherents of an ideology that is a strain within Islam. And we have to put it on the table and be honest about it.
> 
> Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.
> 
> At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it. This has two effects. First, those with that view think we are weak and that gives them strength.
> 
> Second, those within Islam – and the good news is there are many – who actually know this problem exists and want to do something about it, lose heart. All over the Middle East and beyond there is a struggle being played out.
> 
> On the one side, there are Islamists who have this exclusivist and reactionary world view. They are a significant minority, loud and well organised. On the other are the modern-minded, those who hated the old oppression by corrupt dictators and who hate the new oppression by religious fanatics. They are potentially the majority, but unfortunately they are badly organised.
> 
> The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace. But clearing the ground for peace is not always peaceful.
> 
> The long and hard conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have made us wary of any interventions abroad. But we should never forget why they were long and hard. We allowed failed states to come into being.
> 
> Saddam was responsible for two major wars, in which hundreds of thousands died, many by chemical weapons. He killed similar numbers of his own people.
> 
> The Taliban grew out of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan and made the country into a training ground for terror. Once these regimes were removed, both countries have struggled against the same forces promoting violence and terror in the name of religion everywhere.
> 
> Not every engagement need be military; or where military, involve troops. But disengaging from this struggle won’t bring us peace.
> 
> Neither will security alone. We resisted revolutionary communism by being resolute on security; but we defeated it by a better idea: Freedom. We can do the same with this.
> 
> The better idea is a modern view of religion and its place in society and politics. There has to be respect and equality between people of different faiths. Religion must have a voice in the political system but not govern it.
> 
> We have to start with how to educate children about faith, here and abroad. That is why I started a foundation whose specific purpose is to educate children of different faiths across the world to learn about each other and live with each other.
> 
> We are now in 20 countries and the programmes work. But it is a drop in the ocean compared with the flood of intolerance taught to so many. Now, more than ever, we have to be strong and we have to be strategic.




“At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it,” Mr. Blair said. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace.”

I think he's ⅔ right:

     1. We do not admit that _radical fundamentalism_ is wide and deep in mainstream Islam; and

     2. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown" right now; but

     3. Helping to sow the seeds of reconciliation and peace is a waste of effort. The desperately needed - for its very survival - of Islam must and can come only from within. 

Islam needs a reformation - one which must separate a perfectly 'normal' religion from a weak, backwards, medieval Arab/Persian culture that is unacceptable in 21st century civilization. So it isn't, really, the Islamic _reformation_ that's really important, it is the (highly probable) Arab/Persian _enlightenment_ that is necessary.

What we, the US led West, should do is *isolate* most of the _Islamic Crescent_ - not Malaysia and Indonesia: weaken trade and investment; stop immigration; stop admitting Arab and Iranian students to our universities and so on. This _isolation_ is intended to help create the kinds of internal tensions that are likely to foment rebellions, revolutions, civil wars and a reformation.


----------



## Edward Campbell

On a somewhat related, let's shoot the messenger, topic; here is an interesting article that is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Telegraph_:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine-Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html
My emphasis aded



> Marine Le Pen 'loses immunity' over comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation
> *Marine Le Pen, the leader of the French far-Right leader faces charges for comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation following a secret European parliamentary committee vote, according to reports.*
> 
> By Barney Henderson
> 
> 01 Jun 2013
> 
> Mrs Le Pen, leader of the National Front, told a rally in 2010 that the places in France where Muslims worshipped in the streets were "occupied territory".
> 
> "For those who want to talk a lot about World War Two, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it (Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory," she said at a gathering in Lyon.
> 
> In December 2012, French authorities asked the European Parliament to lift Mrs Le Pen's immunity as a European Parliament member (MEP) so she could be prosecuted.
> 
> The BBC reports that a secret vote, held earlier this week, voted "overwhelmingly" to remove Mrs Le Pen's immunity.
> 
> The vote would need to be ratified formally in parliament, but the BBC states that this would likely be a formality. There was no comment from Mrs Le Pen.
> 
> Mrs Le Pen took over the National Front from her father, party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, who has several convictions for racism and anti-Semitism.
> 
> She won 18 per cent of the vote in the first round of France's presidential election in April 2012 – the party's highest ever score.
> 
> There are an estimated six million Muslims in France. Following protests from the far-Right, praying in the streets was banned in Paris in 2011.




I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French _ruling class_ (all graduates of the same handful of _grandes écoles_ that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.


----------



## OldSolduer

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French _ruling class_ (all graduates of the same handful of _grandes écoles_ that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.



Well said, Mr. Campbell

The meek shall not inherit the earth because the witless (or dimwits as you put it) will have destroyed it.


----------



## ModlrMike

If you want a glimpse of the future watch the movie Idiocracy. I'm convinced that's where we're headed.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The words of terrorist sympathizers sit only on the tongues of liars and traitors.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.



> BRAVO PM Julia Gillard- she must be PM of the world.
> 
> Australia says NO - Second time she has done this!
> Australian Prime Minister does it again!!
> This woman should be appointed Queen of the World. Truer words have never been spoken.
> 
> It took a lot of courage for this woman to speak, what she had to say for the world to hear. The retribution could be phenomenal, but at least she was willing to take a stand on her and Australia 's beliefs.
> The whole world needs a leader like this!
> 
> Prime Minister Julia Gillard - Australia
> Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law, were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
> Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
> Quote:
> 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.
> I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '
> 
> 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
> 
> 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language!'
> 
> 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
> 
> 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
> 
> 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
> 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.



Trying to source it now.

[edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.   http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml


----------



## PanaEng

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.
> 
> Trying to source it now.
> 
> [edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.   http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml



That's too bad.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'll second that for most of it.


----------



## a_majoor

Mark Steyn on how PC attitudes make dealing with the issue.....difficult 

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350505/no-copbad-cop-mark-steyn



> No Cop/Bad Cop
> By  Mark Steyn
> June 7, 2013 2:01 PM
> Comments98
> 
> I was chugging along buying Jack Dunphy’s argument on the NSA business, “A Small Price To Pay,” until I got to this bit:
> 
> There are people living in the United States right now, many, many of them, who are no less committed to jihad than the Tsarnaev brothers or Nidal Hassan.
> 
> Well, how’d that happen? How did all these Tsarnaevs-in-waiting wind up living in the United States? They were let in by the government, and many of them were let in in the years since 9/11, when we were supposedly on permanent “orange alert.” The same bureaucracy that takes the terror threat so seriously that it needs the phone and Internet records of hundreds of millions of law-abiding persons would never dream of doing a little more pre-screening in its immigration system — by, say, according a graduate of a Yemeni madrassah a little more scrutiny than a Slovene or Fijian. The president has unilaterally suspended the immigration laws of the United States, and his attorney general prosecutes those states such as Arizona who remain quaintly attached to them. The ID three of the 9/11 hijackers acquired in the 7-Eleven parking lot in Falls Church, Virginia and used to board the plane that day is part of a vast ongoing subversion of American sovereignty with which many states and so-called “sanctuary cities” actively collude.
> 
> As for Major Hasan, who needs surveillance? He put “Soldier of Allah” on his business card and gave a PowerPoint presentation to his military colleagues on what he’d like to do to infidels — and nobody said a word, lest they got tied up in sensitivity-training hell for six months.
> 
> Jack will forgive me when I say this is less good cop/bad cop than no cop/bad cop. Because the formal, visible state has been neutered by political correctness, the dark, furtive shadow state has to expand massively to make, in secret, the judgment calls that can no longer be made in public. That’s not an arrangement that is likely to end well.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting news in the UK.  Now I wonder a few things here.  What does this family talk about in the home, at the dinner table, around the couch, after a meeting in their basement?  Isn't convenient that they use our Laws when they feel it is in their best interest and disregard them when it is not.   If our Laws are not to be followed because they were written by 'men', then who do they think scribed Sharia Laws?

Link to Family face losing £200,000 home in landmark ruling after grandfather's terror training conviction

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2340243/Family-face-losing-200-000-home-landmark-ruling-grandfathers-terror-conviction.html#ixzz2W6kRbMm7 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook




> The family of a former Taliban fighter convicted of attempting to recruit two undercover police officers for jihad in Afghanistan face losing their £200,000 home under anti-terrorism laws.
> 
> Munir Farooqi, 56, was given four life sentences in September 2011 for running a 'recruitment centre' for home-grown extremists to go to Afghanistan to kill British troops.
> 
> His family have now spoken of how it is 'sickening' that they face being made homeless if Farooqi loses his High Court appeal next month against his conviction.
> 
> The house in Longsight, Manchester, is home to three generations of the Farooqi family, including two children, according to The Independent.
> 
> The Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit served the family with a notice at the end of Farooqi's trial for soliciting to murder and disseminating terrorist literature.
> 
> 
> The notice informed the Farooqis that they intended to seize the house under Section 23a of the Terrorism Act. But the judge in the case ordered it could not go ahead until Farooqi's appeal against the terror conviction had been heard.
> 
> The family's supporters who oppose the seizure say they are being punished even though they have done nothing wrong.
> 
> Munir Farooqi's son Harris, 29, a market trader who was cleared of terror charges at the 2011 trial, said eight people lived at the home, owned by his sister and mother.
> 
> He told The Independent: 'How can they demonise a whole family? It is sickening.
> 
> 'You have to be insane deliberately to make a family go through such torture and to claim they are all terrorists.'
> 
> The property could be seized under anti-terrorism laws because the court found attempts took place there to radicalise men and persuade them to take part in jihad.
> 
> The family told the paper they are confident their father, who was ordered to serve a minimum of nine years, will win his appeal and that the undercover police investigation was unlawful.
> 
> The family's solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted. He said it could be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law. Nearly 20,000 people have signed a petition opposing the seizure of the house.
> 
> 
> During his trial, Manchester Crown Court heard how Farooqi was at the centre of a plot to radicalise and persuade vulnerable young men to 'fight, kill and die'.
> 
> 
> Over a two year period Farooqi - who boasted of being a jihadist and was detained in Afghanistan in 2001- tried to persuade people visiting his stall to travel to training camps in Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> He was arrested in November 2009 after two white undercover policemen infiltrated the recruiting school and underwent radicalisation ceremonies in the basement of his terraced home.
> 
> 
> During the undercover investigation one of the detectives taped Farooqi boasting: ‘If we die, we win. You have Allah on your side, how can we lose?
> 
> 
> ‘You know Jihad is not about you giving your life away. If we’re going to go there you make sure you take at least 40 or 50 people with us so we’ve done something.’
> 
> 
> In September 2011 Farooqi was convicted of three charges of soliciting murder, preparing for acts of terrorism and distributing terrorist publications after a four month trial. He was jailed for a minimum of nine years.
> 
> A CPS spokesman said: 'The Crown Prosecution Service is making an application under S23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 for the forfeiture of Munir Farooqi’s home... on the basis that it has been used for the purposes of terrorism.
> 
> 
> 'The power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008, and before any decision is made, the forfeiture application is considered by the court and the family will be given an opportunity to be heard.
> 
> 
> 'The court will consider the effect of any order on the family members.'





> Under Clause 23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 a convicted terrorist can have their assets seized by the state under a forfeiture order.
> 
> The Farooqi family were informed of the Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit's intention to seize the house at the end of Munir Farooqi's trial.
> 
> The courts found Farooqi attempted to radicalise men and recruit them for jihad at the house.
> 
> But the judge ordered the seizure proceedings to take place after the outcome of Farooqi's appeal.
> 
> His outraged family say they are entitled to a private and family life and will use the Human Rights Act to fight the move.
> 
> Their solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted and would be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law.
> 
> The CPS has said the power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008.


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> According to a report in the _Globe and Mail_, BC Premier Christy Clark says, to be woud-be BC bombers, "You will not succeed," but, of course, they will succeed, in one way or another, eventually. Perhaps they will not, as Premier Clark suggests, succeed in tearing down our values but they will manage to knock down some bridges or buildings. We ~ the security services ~ are, rather like the Israelis: the Isrealis have to win every war, every battle, while the Arabs just have to get lucky once. Sooner or later the home grown, self radicalized terrorists will "get lucky" and we will be horrified.
> 
> The trick, the path to victory, for us, is to be "horrified" without ever, being "terrorized." Our sense of "horror" and our sense of "honour" must lead us towards a steely resolve to defend and preserve our values, our institutions, our culture against all comers. We must *know* that our culture is worthy, even better than others. That doesn't mean we should be intolerant but it does mean that we should remember both the definition of _tolerance_ (the ability or willingness to accept the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or with which one disagrees) and its origin (late Middle English (denoting the action of bearing hardship, or the ability to bear pain and hardship): via Old French from Latin _tolerantia_, from _tolerare_). _Tolerating_ less "worthy" cultures ~ while we help to change/reform them ~ may, indeed, involve some hardship but the end effect, helping others to adapt their cultures so that they no longer need to be _tolerated_, is worth it.




And here, in a report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Los Angeles Times_ is a report on a cultural value that we must find intolerable, slavery:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-saudi-princess-20130711,0,4263322.story


> Saudi princess charged in O.C. human trafficking case
> *Saudi princess Meshael Alayban is accused of forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant in Irvine. She allegedly made the woman work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for $220 a month.*
> 
> By Richard Winton
> 
> July 10, 2013
> 
> A woman whom Orange County authorities described as a Saudi royal princess was charged Wednesday with human trafficking for allegedly forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant.
> 
> Meshael Alayban, 42, was taken into custody early Wednesday by police at her Irvine home in a gated community. Orange County prosecutors allege that Alayban forced the woman to work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for only $220 a month. Authorities say she was unable to flee because Alayban kept the woman's passport and documents.
> 
> Authorities said the woman left the home on Tuesday. She boarded a bus and eventually contacted police.
> 
> Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas on Wednesday charged Alayban with one felony count of human trafficking.
> 
> "The law of our nation and California does not tolerate people who deprive or violate the liberty of another and obtain forced labor or services," Rackauckas said. "If any person is being enslaved, he or she should contact law enforcement."
> 
> In addition to the Kenyan woman, police said officers found four other workers being held under similar circumstances at Alayban's home. Detectives continue to investigate, but no charges have yet been filed in those cases.
> 
> Prosecutors requested that Alayban be held without bail because she was a flight risk. But a judge ordered she be held in lieu of $5 million. He also ordered her to surrender her passport, not to travel outside Orange County and to wear a monitor if released.
> 
> Orange County prosecutors identified Alayban as one of the wives of Saudi Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud. She could not be reached for comment, but in a statement to the Los Angeles Times, her attorney, Paul S. Meyer, said there was no physical abuse, no physical restraint and that the complaints were about hours worked and wages paid.
> 
> "We intend to fully investigate this matter, and expect that the truth will resolve it," he said.
> 
> The servant, whose identity was not released by authorities, began working for the family in Saudi Arabia to help cover her young daughter's medical care, officials said. The woman was contacted through an agency in Kenya to work for Alayban's family in Saudi Arabia in March 2012. She was meant to work for two years and be paid $1,600 a month. She was told she'd work eight hours a day, five days a week and that her pay would rise after three months, authorities said.
> 
> Irvine police said that when the woman arrived in Saudi Arabia, Alayban took her passport. She accompanied Alayban and her family when they came to Irvine in May. Police said the servant came with four other women from the Philippines working under similar contracts.
> 
> She told detectives she was required to work excessive hours and paid only a fraction of the agreed-upon salary. When the woman complained about the working conditions and asked for her passport back so she could leave, Alayban refused to give it to her, police said.
> 
> The servant told authorities she was working for various Alayban family members living in four luxury apartments in a development off Jamboree Road, police said. She claimed she was not allowed to leave the complex without a member of the family present.
> 
> "We are gratified to have been able to help this victim find her freedom," Irvine Police Chief David L. Maggard Jr. said.
> 
> The servant finally left the complex Tuesday, carrying a suitcase and a U.S. State Department pamphlet on human trafficking, officials said. The pamphlet had been given to her at a U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia, where she was issued a travel visa, Maggard said.
> 
> A woman on the bus noticed she was upset and began talking to her. That woman eventually helped her contact police.
> 
> When police arrived at Alayban's home, they found the four other women. Police said they told detectives their travel documents had also been taken by Alayban.
> 
> Detectives were trying to retrieve the documents from a safe deposit box.
> 
> _richard.winton@latimes.com_




I am almost certain that the US State Department will intervene, at the behest of the _House of Saud_ to subvert justice in America.

Slavery remains a "taken for granted" issue in Islam and many Arabs think it is normal that e.g. Africans and Philippines people should be, _de facto_ enslaved. Some would use the term _indentured_ but we would not have recognized those terms of indenture since the early 19th century.

- mod edited to fix code formatting -


----------



## CougarKing

The man who once wanted to be "America's mayor" weighs in on walking the precipice of too much political correctness:

National Post link



> *Culture of ‘political correctness’ on Islamist terrorist threat blunted effort to stop home-grown attacks, Rudi Giuliani says*
> 
> Rudy Giuliani, the mayor of New York at the time of the September 11 attacks, has questioned whether a culture of “political correctness” towards the Islamist terrorist threat had blunted efforts to stop home-grown attacks such as the Boston marathon bombings.
> 
> Speaking hours before Dzhokhar Tsarnaev — the alleged surviving Boston bomber — was arraigned in court,* Mr. Giuliani took aim at the Obama administration for creating a climate that had made U.S. security agencies over-cautious about pursing potential Islamist threats.
> 
> “You can’t fight an enemy you don’t acknowledge,” Mr. Giuliani told the House homeland security committee inquiry into the intelligence failures that led to the Boston bombs.
> 
> “In order to confront this threat effectively, we have to purge ourselves of the practice of political correctness when it goes so far that it interferes with our rational and intellectually honest analysis of the identifying characteristics that help us to discover these killers in advance.”*
> 
> In the days immediately following the Boston attacks, President Barack Obama was attacked by the Right for his reluctance to identify the bombings as the work of Islamist terrorists — a sign, they said, of the president’s excessive caution on the issue.
> 
> *Mr. Giuliani said he believed that the FBI’s failure to track the older Tsarnaev brother, Tamerlan, despite his return to his native Dagestan, a known centre of jihadism, might have been caused by over-caution on civil liberty and religious issues.
> 
> “The fear of incorrectly identifying [Tamerlan] Tsarnaev as a suspected Muslim extremist might have played a role in not taking all the steps that seemed prudent given his suspicious behaviour,” *  he said, “He obviously wasn’t going back to listen to the Moscow symphony.”
> 
> (...)


----------



## CougarKing

I considered posting this in the "dumbest thing you've heard today" thread instead...

Yet another instance of barbarism of such backward clerics as pointed out in other threads.

Sun News link



> *Stoning is good for your soul, says Canadian cleric*
> 
> TORONTO — Death to sinners. That is the religious message brought to you by YouTube. Homosexuals and adulterers, you’d better start running because it’s directed at you.
> 
> Don’t believe me? Well, plenty of people watched Wednesday as *Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak* put his death by stoning show on the digital high road courtesy of the Internet.
> 
> *A YouTube video featuring an insightful look at the ideas of the Brampton, Ont., preacher who stated that “sinners,” as defined by his own interpretation of Islamic law, can benefit from a jolly good stoning was running all day until it was belatedly taken down.*
> 
> The sheikh explained that a Muslim who is sentenced to death by stoning under Sharia law actually benefits from this gruesome punishment as her soul is being purified even as the stones rain down on her sinful head.
> 
> It would possibly be funny if it were in a Monty Python movie. Almost, but not quite. There is no joke to be had in a medieval form of punishment like stoning. Nor should it be condoned.
> 
> Alas, it might be more widely spread than most Canadians would believe.
> 
> *In 2010 the Pew Research Centre in Washington published the results of an extensive poll of Middle East countries and tapped into their views of modern life.
> 
> According to the results, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favour making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion.
> 
> Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments. Thankfully none will be proscribed in Canada because we are a free, open and tolerant society that will never become a theocracy where common law is subjugated to religious dogma.*
> 
> Being free, open and tolerant also means that people such as Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak can take advantage of free speech to spread their own version of moral purification.
> 
> *This from a man who serves as both president of the Islamic Forum of Canada and vice-president of the Islamic Council of Imams of Canada. Attempts were made to contact the sheikh for comment for this article but they were unsuccessful.*
> 
> Still, that doesn’t mean we have to withhold our own opinion.
> 
> We can surely ask just why a clearly inflammatory piece of speech like that delivered by the sheikh is hosted on the popular video-sharing site. It’s got company, too.
> 
> It doesn’t take long to find plenty of disgusting material on YouTube that makes it less of a social site than a sewer of hate and bloody gore, most of it carried out in the sacred name of religion.
> 
> There are endless images of gruesome hangings, stonings, executions, assaults, assassinations, shootings and so-called honour killings.
> 
> It says a lot about the warped values of YouTube that it will vigorously protect the copyright of Saturday Night Live when an illegal video of a skit from the show is posted but let vivid examples of man’s inhumanity to man be run in all its glory.
> 
> A quick YouTube search reveals an alarming number of terrorist training videos from al-Qaida side by side with executions by Al-Shabaab and hate-filled sermons from across the globe.
> 
> This is despite YouTube’s insufferably smug claims that it has “community guidelines” that prohibit “dangerous or illegal activities such as bomb-making, hate speech and incitement to commit violent acts” and only accepts “religious” films.
> 
> If you believe that, then you’ll also believe that a video snuff movie features people sneezing.


----------



## George Wallace

"Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> "Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent.




It is not a religious issues, it is cultural. Until we understand that we are going to blunder about making strategic blunders because we have failed to grasp the most basic, simple problem.

Islam needs a _reformation_, but the Christian reformation (1400 (John Huss) to 1700 (Treaty of London)) was, largely, cultural rather than purely religious. Issues like language - the bible in the venacular - bother some Asian Muslims today and some are agitating against the notion that the Qur'an can only be "understood" in Arabic. The habit of relying upon Arab or Persian clerics who "import" their own cultural values and try to impose them in e.g. Malays or Indonesians or Canadians is also a cause of concern amongst many Muslims. So the stirrings of a _reformation_ are already apparent.

But an Islamic _reformation_ is only one step; many Muslim regions (Africa, the Near and Middle East, and West Asia) need cultural _enlightenments_ such as we, in the West, had from about 1650 until about 1800 (overlapping the _reformation_) and which the Chinese had, arguably, 1,500 years earlier.

The bits of Islam which we find are offensive to all civilized peoples are the same as the bits of Judaism and Christianity that were wrung out of the fabric of (the mainstreams of) both those creeds over the past centuries. They can be wrung out of Islam, too ... by Muslims, just as Christians and Jews reformed themselves.

Now, clearly and without reservation, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak does not belong in Canada. His views and his theology are barbaric and unacceptable to any Canadian, of any religion. He cannot be deported fast enough. And we, as a country, must not allow Muslims mosques to import people like him. They, Canadian Muslims, must educate and train their own, Canadian, imans. We, Canadians of any and all sorts, neither want nor should we accept barbarians, no matter what disguises they may adopt. But, sadly, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak is not a whole lot different than some radical Christian preachers, and they're "home grown."


----------



## myself.only

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It is not a religious issues, it is cultural. Until we understand that we are going to blunder about making strategic blunders because we have failed to grasp the most basic, simple problem.
> 
> Islam needs a _reformation_, but the Christian reformation (1400 (John Huss) to 1700 (Treaty of London)) was, largely, cultural rather than purely religious. Issues like language - the bible in the venacular - bother some Asian Muslims today and some are agitating against the notion that the Qur'an can only be "understood" in Arabic. The habit of relying upon Arab or Persian clerics who "import" their own cultural values and try to impose them in e.g. Malays or Indonesians or Canadians is also a cause of concern amongst many Muslims. So the stirrings of a _reformation_ are already apparent.
> 
> But an Islamic _reformation_ is only one step; many Muslim regions (Africa, the Near and Middle East, and West Asia) need cultural _enlightenments_ such as we, in the West, had from about 1650 until about 1800 (overlapping the _reformation_) and which the Chinese had, arguably, 1,500 years earlier.
> 
> The bits of Islam which we find are offensive to all civilized peoples are the same as the bits of Judaism and Christianity that were wrung out of the fabric of (the mainstreams of) both those creeds over the past centuries. They can be wrung out of Islam, too ... by Muslims, just as Christians and Jews reformed themselves.
> 
> Now, clearly and without reservation, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak does not belong in Canada. His views and his theology are barbaric and unacceptable to any Canadian, of any religion. He cannot be deported fast enough. And we, as a country, must not allow Muslims mosques to import people like him. They, Canadian Muslims, must educate and train their own, Canadian, imans. We, Canadians of any and all sorts, neither want nor should we accept barbarians, no matter what disguises they may adopt. But, sadly, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak is not a whole lot different than some radical Christian preachers, and they're "home grown."



Very well said, sir. 

Further to your post, IMHO the potential for reformation is best supported when non-Muslim countries such as Canada promote the inclusiveness of Muslims in general. Then the adoption of our culture can become a viable alternative without compromising religious identity.


----------



## George Wallace

myself.only said:
			
		

> Further to your post, IMHO the potential for reformation is best supported when non-Muslim countries such as Canada promote the inclusiveness of Muslims in general. Then the adoption of our culture can become a viable alternative without compromising religious identity.



Nice plan.  Like Communism, it looks good on paper.  Unfortunately, like Communism, it won't work.  So many of them have no intention of adopting our culture.  Therein lies the flaws of such logic.


----------



## myself.only

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Nice plan.  Like Communism, it looks good on paper.  Unfortunately, like Communism, it won't work.  So many of them have no intention of adopting our culture.  Therein lies the flaws of such logic.



Well, I don't know if the opposite viewpoint - promoting that one cannot be both a good Canadian and a good Muslim - even has the advantage of looking good on paper.


----------



## GnyHwy

There is probably a significant amount of Muslims that adapt well to Canadian culture; they are what is called "whitewashed".

Maybe we can get them to take a survey to determine how susceptible they are.


----------



## Edward Campbell

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Daily Mail_, is _foreign_ news but I suspect it applies around the world. *But* please see my comments at the end:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416586/Gangs-Asian-men-grooming-MUSLIM-girls-plying-drink-drugs.html


> Gangs of Asian men are grooming underage MUSLIM girls too, plying them with drink and drugs while promising marriage
> *Older men target girls within their own Asian and Muslim communities
> Gangs rely on sense of shame and honour to ensure their victims' silence
> Victims to frightened to speak about because they fear not being believed
> Youngsters raped, severely beaten and burnt with cigarettes*
> 
> By ANNA EDWARDS
> 
> PUBLISHED: 10 September 2013
> 
> Gangs of Asian men who groom and sexually exploit children have been targeting Muslims within their own communities as well as white girls, a damning report has revealed.
> 
> The study shows that offenders will target vulnerable youngsters of the same ethnicity - but rely on the Asian and Muslim culture of honour and shame to mask their vile crimes.
> 
> The Muslim Women's Network UK report focuses on Mulsim and Asian abused children, who they say have been sexually exploited but overlooked by authorities because they are too frightened to speak out.
> 
> The worrying study follows a series of high profile cases about gangs of Asian men who have targeted white girls.
> 
> But the report exposes how in the majority of cases offenders will groom members of their own community, feeding them drink and drugs and silencing them with promises of marriage to conceal the abuse.
> 
> It also reveals that victims were already vulnerable to being sexually exploited by gangs, as they had a limited knowledge of sex, suffered from disabilities, or were seeking to escape a harsh background.
> 
> The MWNUK claims there has been a 'deafening silence' surrounding this particular group of victims, pointing to the Asian and Muslim culture of honour and shame, which stops many victims speaking out about sexual abuse and seeking help.
> 
> They also say that the culture of men holding the authority and women must be respectable means that the abused females will often stay silent about their experiences, for fear of not being believed by their community.
> 
> The report found that victims often received little support when abuse was discovered.
> 
> It said: 'When the family became aware of any abuse they re-victimised them, which meant not believing them, blaming them, forcing them into a marriage, forcing them to leave the family home and in one case forcing the victim to have hymen repair surgery prior to a forced marriage.
> 
> Consequently the report claims that this vulnerable portion of society are often overlooked by statutory services and not identified as victims as they have not spoken up either to authorities or their own communities, who could have helped them.
> 
> The report identified how groups would target youngsters, typically using an older peer of the victim to play the role of 'older boyfriend'.
> 
> The targeted girl would be presented with gifts by the 'boyfriend', given rides in expensive cars and promised love and marriage, before being introduced to older men and the campaign of abuse would begin.
> 
> Sometimes she would be plied with drink and drugs, so she would not know the extent of her abuse or even how many men had violated her.
> 
> The shocking report found the gangs would rape the victims, beat them, burn them with cigarettes and film them being exploited on webcam.
> 
> Blackmail was a key way of controlling victims and ensuring their silence, the study discovered, as gangs threatened their victims with dishonour and shame should they speak up.
> 
> Honorary president and MWNUK's co-founding member Baroness Haleh Afshar OBE said: 'These case studies indicate that, contrary to media studies that accuse Muslim men of grooming non-Muslim girls, the majority of the abusers were from the same ethnic /faith background as the victims and perpetrators targeted girls that were most vulnerable and accessible to them.
> 
> 'Like their non-Muslim counterparts some of the victims were silenced by fear of violence against them or their family, others had an emotional attachment to their attackers and others feared that they would not be believed by their own family and others.
> 
> 'In addition, the attackers relied on the deep sense of honour and shame in their family and community to silence and control their victims.'
> 
> The report found that older men who targeted their own relatives would often intimidate their terrified youngsters into silence and, if necessary, use violence or arrange a forced marriage to mask their abuse.
> 
> The analysis collected 35 cases of abuse over five months, and had to speak to those who knew the victims and may have helped them, as victims were reluctant to speak of the abuse personally.
> 
> Key findings found that: 'Asian and Muslim female victims are also vulnerable to grooming and sexual exploitation and are also being targeted and sexually exploited and include children, young persons (16 to 18 years) and adults.
> 
> 'Asian and Muslim female victims are most vulnerable to offenders from their own communities as the overwhelming majority of the offenders were from the same background as the victims.
> 
> 'Asian and Muslim children, young persons and adults have specific vulnerabilities associated with their culture which are exploited and also constitute a barrier to disclosure and reporting.'
> 
> Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, Senior Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Minister for Faith and Communities, said: 'The case studies are finally shining much needed spotlight on a problem that has largely, and tragically, gone unnoticed in the past.
> 
> 'The cases of Asian and Muslim female victims make for hard reading, but this report, and other research like it, is necessary if we are to take the action needed to stamp out these abhorrent crimes.'
> 
> Nazir Afazl OBE, the Chief Crown Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service, said: 'We know that women and victims from minorities are even more reluctant to report these crimes, in part because of honour and shame issues.
> 
> 'It is the availability of victims coupled with their vulnerability that leads to them being targeted by these predators.'
> 
> He urged communities and individuals to speak out about abuse if they knew it was happening.
> 
> The report comes after a series of high-profile child sex gang cases - including five men who were jailed for life in June for 'crimes of the utmost gravity' in Oxford.
> 
> Child sex gangs have also been caught in Rochdale, Greater Manchester, Cambridgeshire and Rotherham, South Yorkshire.


 

There is nothing _Muslim_ about this, nothing _Asian_ either, it is the sad fate of all immigrant and minority communities, everywhere; it was the same here, in Canada, 150 years ago and it is the same here now amongst many "communities" today.

But it, _de faco_ slavery, is uncivilized and it ought to be grounds for deportation.


----------



## The Bread Guy

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> There is probably a significant amount of Muslims that adapt well to Canadian culture; they are what is called "whitewashed".
> 
> Maybe we can get them to take a survey to determine how susceptible they are.


<pedant>
FYI, Apu is Hindu, not Muslim.
</pedant>
 ;D


----------



## CougarKing

Fallout or not, he was still on the FBI's most-wanted list...

Good riddens. 

National Post link



> *Jihadi rapper and former Toronto pizza deliveryman Omar Hammami killed in Somalia ambush after falling out with al-Shabaab, militants say*
> 
> MOGADISHU, Somalia — *A rapping jihadi from Alabama who ascended the ranks of Somalia’s al-Qaeda-linked militant group and was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list with a US$5-million reward for his capture  *  was killed Thursday in an ambush ordered by the militant group’s leader, militants said.
> 
> *Omar Hammami, a native of Daphne, Alabama and former Toronto pizza deliveryman who was known as Abu Mansoor Al-Amriki, or “the American,” died in southern Somalia following several months on the run after a falling-out with al-Shabaab’s top leader, the militants said.*
> 
> Reports of Hammami’s death crop up every few months in Somalia, only for him to resurface a short while later. But a U.S. terrorism expert who closely follows the inner workings of al-Shabaab says he thinks that the current reports of the death are accurate.
> 
> 
> “I think it’s very likely true based on the sources I am seeing,” said J.M. Berger, who runs the website Intelwire.com.
> 
> Militants did not immediately present proof of Hammami’s death.
> 
> *A member of al-Shabaab who gave his name as Sheik Abu Mohammed told The Associated Press that Hammami was killed in an ambush in Somalia’s southern Bay region. Some of Mohammed’s associates carried out the killing, he said.*
> 
> Along with Adam Gadahn in Pakistan — a former Osama bin Laden spokesman — Hammami is one of the two most notorious Americans in jihad groups. He grew up in *Daphne, a community of 20,000 outside Mobile, the son of a Christian mother and a Syrian-born Muslim father.*
> 
> His YouTube videos that featured him rapping and his presence on Twitter made him one of the most recognizable and studied U.S. foreign fighters. The U.S. put Hammami on its Most Wanted terrorist list in March and offered a US$5-million reward for information leading to his capture.
> 
> *U.S. prosecutors had charged Hammami with providing material support to terrorists.
> 
> ]The Alabama-born 28-year-old left Toronto in 2005 and made his way through Cairo to join the Somali jihad. “We are all Osama,” he declared in one of his many self-aggrandizing online videos.*
> 
> But his holy war now appears to be over. He fought alongside al-Shabaab for years until they had a falling out amid signs of increasing tension between Somali and foreign fighters in the group. He first expressed fear for his life in a web video in March 2012 that publicized his rift with al-Shabaab.
> 
> The first serious attempt on his life was made in April.
> 
> “Just been shot in neck by shabab assassin. not critical yet,” Hammami tweeted after the April attack. He later wrote on Twitter that the leader of al-Shabaab was sending in forces from multiple directions. “we are few but we might get back up. abu zubayr has gone mad. he’s starting a civil war,” Hammami posted.
> 
> Hammami accused al-Shabaab’s leaders of living extravagant lifestyles with the taxes fighters collect from Somali residents. Another Hammami grievance is that the Somali militant leaders sideline foreign militants inside al-Shabaab and are concerned only about fighting in Somalia, not globally.
> 
> The leader of al-Shabaab, Mukhtar Abu Zubeyr, is also known as Godane.
> 
> Berger said that Hammami has been “a thorn in the side of al-Shabaab” for more than two years and “one of the few surviving dissenters after Godane’s bloody purge over the summer.”
> 
> *Militants in Somalia have long hosted foreign fighters in the country. U.S. officials say that al-Shabaab, which has been around since about 2006, counts several hundred foreign fighters among its ranks, including several dozen Somali-Americans from Minnesota.*
> 
> Al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda announced formal merger in February 2012, but the Somali militant group maintained a reputation as being hostile to foreign fighters.
> 
> “Hammami brought a lot of unwelcome outside scrutiny on Shabaab from the international jihadist community. His story will likely be a case study on what can go wrong when Westerners join jihadist movements,” Berger said.
> 
> ———


----------



## x_para76

What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam by stating that the extremists only represent a small minority of the religion and that we shouldn't judge them all based on the actions or views of a few. However, I can't recall very many occasions where the moderates have come out and publicly criticized  or spoke out against the extremists. I've heard their apathy compared to that of the average German during the Second World War, where the majority of Germans weren't hardcore Nazi's but because of their omission of action allowed a small minority to commit mass murder.


----------



## Journeyman

X_para76 said:
			
		

> What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam.....


Islam requires defending?  It's somehow indefensible?    :


----------



## myself.only

FWIW, my impression from the (English translation of) the Koran was surprise at what was IMHO a very defensive tone.
Seemed an awful lot of preparing the faithful for confrontation and discrimination, a lot of "If the unbeliever does X...."


----------



## Colin Parkinson

X_para76 said:
			
		

> What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam by stating that the extremists only represent a small minority of the religion and that we shouldn't judge them all based on the actions or views of a few. However, I can't recall very many occasions where the moderates have come out and publicly criticized  or spoke out against the extremists. I've heard their apathy compared to that of the average German during the Second World War, where the majority of Germans weren't hardcore Nazi's but because of their omission of action allowed a small minority to commit mass murder.



It is a small number that do intimidate the masses, through violent and non-violent means. Islam is about submission and they play that card well. I have met many Muslims that will repeat what they are being told, despite seeing with their own eyes something different. It's not worth sticking your neck out, because these nutbars are real nutbars and they are serious. The one saving grace in all this is everytime these nutbars get into power, they can't restrain themselves and finally they push the masses to far.


----------



## x_para76

Oh I have no doubt that moderate Muslims are as wary of the crazy Muslims as I am.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some may be back to walking among us after second thoughts?


> "In 2009, six zealous young Somali-Canadians abandoned their studies and families in Toronto to join Al-Shabab, an armed extremist group fighting a losing battle to impose its harsh version of Islamic law on Somalia.
> 
> Four years later, four of them are dead and on Thursday another former Toronto resident, Omar Hammami, was reported killed. But according to a Toronto imam, the remaining two have now left Al-Shabab after seeing the error of their ways.
> 
> “They realized what they were doing was wrong,” said Sheikh Said Rageah, who spoke recently to one of the Canadians, both now settled in Hargeysa, capital of the northern breakaway region of Somaliland. “They’re not into that anymore.”
> 
> The imam said they had married and were working, one as an English teacher. “They got their lives together. I don’t think they plan to come back [to Canada] but they definitely went back to university and they work so they have different plans. One of them has, I think, two kids.” ....


_National Post_, 12 Sept 13


----------



## CougarKing

> *Somali terror group has 20 American members, prone to strike outside Somalia*
> 
> The Somali terror group that stormed a Kenyan mall, killing more than 60 people, has a larger U.S. contingent than any other al Qaeda offshoot, said U.S. officials, and is now more prone to mount deadly attacks on targets outside Somalia.
> 
> Al Shabaab's attacks on foreign targets include an attempt to kill a U.S. congressman visiting Mogadishu in 2009. Rep. Donald Payne, D-N.J., was uninjured in the mortar attack.
> 
> Via Twitter, al Shabaab has claimed that six of the jihadis holding hostages at Nairobi’s Westgate mall are Americans, and provided names for what it said were individuals from Minneapolis, Kansas City, Maine, Illinois and Arizona.



More at...

NBC News


----------



## Lightguns

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> More at...
> 
> NBC News



When one wants to kill a high value target with precision, one should always turn to mortars!


----------



## OldSolduer

How many do we have here I wonder.


----------



## ModlrMike

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> How many do we have here I wonder.



More than we know, less than we think.


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> More than we know, less than we think.


If .01 % of the population of Canada had terrorist leanings we are looking at about 3300 people.


----------



## dapaterson

Well, we should be on the lookout for diehard believers who continue regardless of whether their faith has any basis or not.


----------



## Journeyman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> If .01 % of the population of Canada had terrorist leanings we are looking at about 3300 people.


I believe that figure is classified, as is the Intelligence methodology you used (guess, then try to make it look logical when briefing)


----------



## George Wallace

Believe this belongs here, more than anywhere else:

(Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Whole truth? Hardly: Media Party spins quite a tale about its two latest heroes
> 
> By Ezra Levant,QMI Agency
> First posted:  Monday, September 30, 2013 06:36 PM EDT  | Updated:  Monday, September 30, 2013 06:41 PM EDT
> 
> The Media Party has two new heroes: Tarek Loubani and John Greyson.
> 
> A search of the CBC’s website shows more than 5,000 stories on the two men. By contrast, lowly Nelson Mandela only has 2,000 mentions.
> 
> So, who are these saints? The Media Party says Loubani is a doctor and Greyson is a filmmaker, and they’re being held in an Egyptian jail without charges. That’s part of the story. Here’s the rest:
> 
> Loubani is, in fact, a doctor from London, Ont. He calls himself a Palestinian refugee, though he came to Canada from Kuwait, where he was born. But it’s politically sexier to say you’re Palestinian.
> 
> Loubani is an extreme activist. When a Canadian cabinet minister was announcing a grant to help people with disabilities, Loubani stormed into the press conference, disrupting it, shouting about how he’s a refugee from Palestine. Even though he’s been in Canada since he was a child. And he’s a rich doctor, doing just fine.
> 
> Loubani just wouldn’t leave the press conference, even when security guards asked him to. He kept shouting like a crazy person until police escorted him away.
> 
> So, sure, he’s a doctor. But he’s also a professional protester, an extremist activist. Who went to Egypt in August. Who would go there in the middle of a civil war? A trouble seeker, of course. He says he was trying to go to the Gaza Strip, a little piece of land ruled by Hamas, the terrorist group that is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
> 
> That’s why he was arrested by Egyptian police. They’re at war with the Muslim Brotherhood right now.
> 
> Loubani and Greyson have been happy boosters of Hamas before, with Greyson involved in running an Israeli naval blockade of the Hamas forces in Gaza.
> 
> It’s technically accurate to call Greyson a filmmaker. But it is more informative to mention he’s a leader of the extremist group called Queers Against Israeli Apartheid – the anti-Israel group that has marched in the gay pride parade in Toronto. Which is odd, because Israel is the only country in the Middle East where homosexuality isn’t a crime and where they actually have a gay pride parade, too.
> 
> The punishment for being gay in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip is the death penalty.
> 
> Greyson is obsessed with sex. He makes movies about his obsessions, with titles like Urinal and After the Bath. He explores his sexual feelings about Pierre Trudeau. Of course he’s a professor at York University.
> 
> So, yes, Loubani is a doctor. And yes, Greyson is a filmmaker. Are those really the most relevant facts to report about them? Or is it more relevant to point out they are anti-Israel propagandists and activists who have made common cause with the Muslim Brotherhood’s Hamas wing for years — not just in the streets of Toronto and London, Ont., but in Gaza itself?
> 
> That these men are not mainstream or moderate. It’s lucky they were arrested by the Egyptian military, which only held them — as Canadian police would do, if foreign provocateurs came to town in the middle of a massive riot.
> 
> They’re lucky they weren’t arrested by the more enthusiastic members of Hamas’ religious police. They might not be as tolerant of Greyson’s sexuality as Canada is. They might not be as tolerant of Loubani’s free speech as Canada is.
> 
> But there’s another story here: You just can’t trust the Media Party to give you the straight facts, can you?



The fact that these two are professional protestors and supporters of Hamas seems to have eluded the majority of Canadian MSM.   One may even be considered a pervert.

More links to info on Tarek Loubani and John Greyson below: 

30 Sep 2013 Toronto Sun article above:  http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/30/whole-truth-hardly-media-party-spins-quite-a-tale-about-its-two-latest-heroes

04 Oct 2013 Sun News broadcast, (Ezra Levant on Terror Twins John Greyson & Tarek Loubani):       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZBWMDOC1w
 -  (Mention to John Greyson's brother Peter Greyson who defaced the original Charter of Rights in the National Archives with red paint. http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/19/a-blot-on-canadian-history-first-the-queen-signed-our-constitution-then-an-activist-threw-paint-on-it/)

08 Oct 2013 Globe and Mail article by Margaret Wente:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/freed-canadians-are-radical-grandstanders/article14730628/#dashboard/follows/


Not two innocents who wandered into a country in the middle of a civil war, but two looking for controversy; and they found it.  Unfortunately for us, the MSM, at that time, painted them as victims, rather than what they really were.


----------



## CougarKing

I posted this latest update here since I consider Russia "Western" ethnically and culturally even though some past historical rhetoric from the Cold War or even during or before the Second World War sometimes refers to the Soviet-era Russians as the "Eastern hordes". 

It's because of the recognition by Islamic radicals in Dagestan/Chechnya that Russia is a western country and their disdain for western culture that they targeted Russian civilians in incidents such as the horrifying 2004 Beslan school massacre.



> *Terrorist blast kills at least 6, injures over 30 in Volgograd, central Russia*
> 
> Published time: October 21, 2013 10:33
> 
> *Preliminary data suggests that a female suicide bomber conducted the attack on the bus in Volgograd, central Russia, killing six people and injuring 33, according to the Russian Investigative Committee.*
> 
> A terrorist act has been confirmed by the National Anti-terrorist Committee.
> 
> ........
> 
> *The Investigative Committee has identified the woman who was the suicide bomber: it's allegedly Naida Asiyalova, from Dagestan. *
> 
> The preliminary information indicates that “the female suicide bomber recently converted to Islam, and was the wife of a militant leader,” an Investigative Committee representative told the media.
> 
> Also, a grenade has been found under the vehicle and it's now being checked whether the explosive is live, a source in the security forces now at the scene told RIA Novosti.
> 
> Forty passengers were on the bus. At least eight of them are in critical condition. A 20-month-old toddler is among those injured. His state is assessed as moderately severe.
> 
> .........
> 
> Video: www.rt.com/news/volgograd-bus-explosion-dead-486/


----------



## George Wallace

Although this article refers to activities in the UK, it may just as well be happening in many other 'Western' nations.  Things like this make one wonder if our Charter of Human Rights is doing more harm than good and allowing those who are bent on destroying our way of life the freedoms, to do so without persecution:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Poppy-burning Muslims plan new 'Hell for Heroes' demonstration on November 11
> 
> By Daily Mail Reporter
> UPDATED: 09:46 GMT, 31 October 2011
> 
> *
> An extreme Muslim group which caused outrage by burning a poppy last Remembrance Sunday is planning further disruption on November 11, with a twisted 'Hell for Heroes' campaign.
> *
> 
> The demo, which mocks the charity for injured soldiers Help for Heroes, is due to take place outside the Royal Albert Hall, the same location where a poppy was burned last year.
> 
> Emdadur Choudhury, who burned the poppy, was fined just £50.
> 
> The Muslims Against Crusades protesters, who have sought permission from police to hold the rally, aim to chant and disrupt the minute's silence held in honour of the war dead.
> 
> Firebrand cleric Anjem Choudary, who has links to the Muslims Against Crusades group, said: 'It's going to be called Hell for Heroes and it will be around the Royal Albert Hall.
> 
> 'It will involve a protest and not observing the minute's silence. We had a significant amount of support from Muslims around the world last year.
> 
> one thing to remember the dead from the First World War and subsequent wars but it's quite another when they say we need to remember the dead from Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> 'It's become a political football and if they are going to use Remembrance Day for that purpose it's only right that we have a counter protest, which we say is for Muslims.
> 
> 'The Army is currently at war with Muslims in Muslim countries.'
> 
> 
> Choudary also played down reports that MP Mike Freer had feared for his safety after a protest at a north London mosque where he was holding a surgery last Friday afternoon.
> 
> Up to a dozen protesters forced their way into the mosque where Mr Freer was meeting constituents, prompting officials to lock him in a private room for his own safety.
> 
> Mr Freer, a member of Conservative Friends of Israel, said he was called a 'Jewish homosexual pig'.
> 
> He said he only later realised the MAC website had made reference to MP Stephen Timms, who was stabbed in his surgery by a Muslim women.
> 
> Choudary played down the protest saying: 'It was peaceful and there were no arrests.
> 
> 'As far as I am aware, there is no suggestion anyone from MAC said anything anti-Semitic or homophobic.'
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html#ixzz2jcPrjxKy
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



LINK

Related articles:


Tory MP 'hidden for his own safety' as Muslim extremist group storms his mosque visit after invoking Stephen Timms stabbing on website

Going out shopping, the terror suspect who pocketed a million in compensation over torture claims

Thieves desecrating memorials to our war heroes every other day as metal plaques and statues are being sold for scrap


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html#ixzz2jcQ72ptw 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook




The UK is an example of where we may find ourselves some day.  What kind of steps do we need to take to ensure it does not happen here?  Education is one step.


----------



## Edward Campbell

And how does this Muslim group differ, in principle, from e.g. the _Westboro Baptist Church_ or Jewish extremist groups?





Westboro Baptist Church member at a military funeral






Israeli "settlers" attack an Arab woman on the street


They're all alike, regardless of religion, and they are all worthy of equal condemnation. Islam is no worse than the other major religions; there are radical Buddhists, and, I'm *guessing*, some pretty unpleasant Taoists, too.


----------



## x_para76

With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.


----------



## jollyjacktar

X_para76 said:
			
		

> With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.


It's not the religion that poses the threat, but some twisted sick MF'ing members of that religion using it as an excuse to commit acts of terror.  Sort of a "gun's don't kill people, people kill people" arguement.  It's just some followers of that path at the moment.  Other religions have had their parasites in the past doing much the same, it's just Islam's turn now.


----------



## Lightguns

X_para76 said:
			
		

> With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.



Yes and the Christians were the scrounge of the 17th to 19th centuries with their imperialism and colonialism.  But the big winner is the Atheists, who for most of the 20th century gained the world record for the slaughter humans under the guise of Communism.  It ain't the religious message, it is the dogma that humans attach to it.

Indeed, look about Canada right now, the next religious terrorism is on the rise, Eco-terrorism, it is rooted in Gaiaism, the belief that the ancestors live in the rocks and trees and you touch anything or there will be a great imbalance.  It is starting to cross racial divides and converts are coming from many factions of society.  We will be lucky if we are not fighting a war in our own streets in next 20 years.  And when we expend all our energy on that religious war, we find another dogma as an excuse to kill each other, it's what we do.


----------



## CougarKing

Another suicide bomber strikes in in the Russian city of Volgograd, following a similar attack there back in Oct.21 this year.

Defense News



> *Female Suicide Bomber Kills 15 At Russia Train Station*
> 
> MOSCOW — *A female suicide bomber killed 15 people Sunday when she blew herself up at the main train station in the southern city of Volgograd, raising concerns about security in Russia just six weeks before the Sochi Olympic Games.
> 
> The unidentified woman set off her charge after being stopped by a police officer at the metal detectors at the entrance to the station while it was packed with people traveling to celebrate the New Year, regional officials said.*
> 
> Footage of the blast captured by a nearby camera showed a huge fireball blow out the front doors and a row of windows from the gray stone three-story building, before huge billows of smoke poured out as people scattered along the street.
> 
> Russia’s Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin said officials had launched an inquiry into a suspected “act of terror.”
> 
> “A suicide bomber who was approaching a metal detector saw a law enforcement official and, after growing nervous, set off an explosive device,” Markin said in televised comments.
> 
> Officials said at least 34 people were injured by the blast that had the explosive equivalent of more than 10 kilograms (16 pounds) of TNT. It was the deadliest attack in Russia for almost three years.
> 
> The police officer who spotted the woman died in the attack while several others who were stationed at the metal detectors were wounded by the blast.
> 
> State television said their actions prevented “hundreds” from being killed.
> 
> The lifenews.ru website meanwhile posted a picture of what it said was the head of the young female bomber lying amid a pile of debris with her long brown hair spread across the floor.
> 
> “It was a very powerful blast,” train station store attendant Valentina Petrichenko told the Vesti 24 news channel.
> 
> “Some people started running and others were thrown back by the wave of the blast,” she said. “It was very scary.”
> 
> Volgograd Mayor Irina Guseva vowed on Vesti 24 television: “We will not allow panic to grip this city.”
> 
> Olympic security fears
> The city of Volgograd — known as Stalingrad in the Soviet era — was already attacked in October by a female suicide bomber with links to Islamists fighting federal forces in the nearby volatile North Caucasus.
> 
> The Oct. 21 strike killed six people aboard a crowded bus and immediately raised security fears ahead of the February 7-23 Winter Games in Sochi.
> 
> The Black Sea city lies 690 kilometers (425 miles) southwest of Volgograd and in direct proximity to the violence ravaging daily in North Caucasus regions such as Dagestan and Chechnya.
> 
> Militants are seeking to impose an Islamist state throughout Russia’s North Caucasus. Their leader Doku Umarov has ordered rebels to target civilians outside the region and disrupt the Olympic Games.
> 
> President Vladimir Putin staked his personal reputation on the Games’ success by lobbying for Sochi’s candidacy before the International Olympic Committee and then spending more than $50 billion (36 billion euros) for the event.
> 
> The Kremlin said Putin was “immediately” informed of the attack.
> 
> “The president is receiving reports as the events develop and as new information comes in — first of all, this concerns the number of people injured and killed,” Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Russian state television.
> 
> Militant attacks have become part of daily life in the mainly Muslim Northern Caucasus but the Volgograd blast will be a particular concern to the authorities as the bomber struck a city of over one million in the Russian heartland.
> 
> The Volgograd attack is deadliest in Russia since the suicide bombing on Moscow’s Domodedovo airport in January 2011 that killed 37.
> 
> (...)


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It's not the religion that poses the threat, but some twisted sick MF'ing members of that religion using it as an excuse to commit acts of terror.  Sort of a "gun's don't kill people, people kill people" arguement.  It's just some followers of that path at the moment.  Other religions have had their parasites in the past doing much the same, it's just Islam's turn now.



Every time I read someone make this counterargument, I'm 99.99% certain they've never read the Quran or Hadiths....

The bottom line is it's those that tolerate the West that by the rules of Islam are actually the heretics.



Matthew.


----------



## George Wallace

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> The bottom line is it's those that tolerate the West that by the rules of Islam are actually the heretics.



Boils down to: in whose eyes are the beholder.  

Look at the Chinese.  All non-Chinese are 'barbarians'.   Us Westerners, don't see it that way at all.  We do look on some as being very barbaric, as in the case of those radical Muslims who are perpetuating terrorism and less than acceptable ways in our eyes; but then again, we do not look on them as being Westerners either.


----------



## Journeyman

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> ......I'm 99.99% certain they've never read the Quran or Hadiths....


Not like that inclusive, touchy-feely book....the Bible -- the Old Testament is a particularly light-hearted romp....


----------



## GAP

not sure where else to put this....

If you knew who was behind “Close-Gitmo” push, you'd be shocked
By J.D. Gordon January 10, 2014 FoxNews.com
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/10/if-knew-who-was-behind-close-gitmo-march-youd-be-shocked/?intcmp=obnetwork

On Saturday, January 11, a coalition of "Close-Gitmo" forces is expected to march on Washington to commemorate the 12th anniversary of detention and interrogation operations.  

Though the march from the White House to the National Museum of American History is purportedly about advancing "human rights" and "stopping torture," a closer look at the key participants reveals a more troubling, some might say hidden, agenda. 

If more Americans knew who is behind this campaign, there would be nationwide outrage.

While everyone is for “human rights” and “stopping torture,” Americans should not be fooled by these false flags meant to damage U.S. power and prestige.  

Just dig a little deeper into who has been driving the anti-Gitmo disinformation campaign these past 12 years, and we discover an international, fervently anti-American, far-left coalition attacking the nation through a savvy propaganda effort.  

This includes those linked to Al Qaeda financiers, communist groups, anarchist movements - backed by sympathetic press and politicians.  

Regrettably, it’s a coalition President Barack Obama has sided with in his priority to release as many Al Qaeda, Taliban and “affiliates” as humanly possible.

Let’s take a look at the key players: More on link


----------



## George Wallace

CAIR-CAN is in the news again, this time under a their new revised name, The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM).

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK



> Muslim group demands apology from Harper, chief spokesman
> 
> National Council of Canadian Muslims files a notice of libel over comments by Jason MacDonald
> 
> The Canadian Press Posted: Jan 28, 2014 12:24 PM ET| Last Updated: Jan 28, 2014 6:18 PM ET
> 
> 
> A major Canadian Muslim group is demanding an apology from Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his chief spokesman for a comment it says linked the organization to the militant group Hamas.
> 
> The National Council of Canadian Muslims has filed a notice of libel in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that accuses Jason MacDonald of acting maliciously when he made the comment earlier this month.
> 
> The council had criticized the inclusion of a controversial rabbi in Harper's delegation that went to the Middle East last week.
> 
> "Rather than responding to our legitimate concerns, the PMO's director of communications attacked us and attempted to smear our name by claiming NCCM had 'documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,"' Ihsaan Gardee, the council's executive director, told a news conference Tuesday.
> 
> "Nothing could be further from the truth. NCCM will not let the PMO's false statement stand."
> 
> The council says MacDonald's comment was a deliberate attempt to discredit the group and Harper is responsible for the words uttered by his spokesman. On CBC News Network's Power & Politics, Gardee told host Evan Solomon that "this is school-yard bully tactics – an attempt to silence dissent from anybody who has a differing view or anybody who asks a question of this government that is more difficult to answer than did the sun rise in the east this morning."
> 
> The libel notice is the first step in what could become a formal lawsuit.
> 
> The Prime Minister's Office responded tersely: "As this matter may be the subject of litigation, we have no further comment."
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird told Solomon that he couldn't comment, but directed Canadians to the internet. "I’d encourage any Canadian to Google the group in question, and do some research on their own and come to their own conclusions."
> 
> Gardee was dismissive of that tactic: "If it's on the internet it must be true. C'mon."
> 
> Further legal action possible
> 
> Further legal action is possible, said Nader Hassan, lawyer for the council.
> 
> "Whether we go through with the lawsuit is going to depend on a number of factors, namely the quality, timing and content of the public apology and retraction," he said.
> 
> Gardee said MacDonald's comment was "categorically false, offensive and defamatory."
> 
> The libel notice says MacDonald's statement was unwarranted.
> 
> "The defamatory words were stated maliciously in order to discredit and insult an organization that did nothing other than exercise its constitutional right to freedom of expression to criticize a decision made by the prime minister," it said.
> 
> "Mr. MacDonald simply made up that statement in an effort to discredit NCCM and deflect its criticism of Mr. Harper."
> 
> The council describes itself as an independent, non-partisan, non-profit group which has worked for 14 years on human rights and civil liberties issues on behalf of Canadian Muslims. Gardee told Solomon the group has never shared any funding, staff or board members with the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a U.S. group that has also faced allegations of ties to militant groups.
> 
> The groups shared names (NCCM was known as CAIR-CAN) until July 2013. Gardee said the Canadian group only used the name because CAIR was well recognized within the Muslim civil liberties movement.
> 
> A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.
> 
> Farhat Rehman of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women said more than just the council was impacted by the remark.
> 
> "This defamation endangers the very valuable work of NCCM and goes against every Canadian democratic principle," she said.
> 
> "Further, it exposes the members of NCCM and the whole Muslim community to suspicion, hatred and bigotry."
> With files from CBC News



Looking deeper into the background:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK



> Does the National Council of Canadian Muslims really have ties to Hamas?
> 
> Robert Spencer	    Jan 18, 2014 at 3:56pm
> 
> Yesterday I noted that the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), the Canadian branch of the Hamas-linked Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), demanded that Prime Minister Steven Harper drop Rabbi Daniel Korobkin from a delegation traveling to Israel because Korobkin committed the cardinal sin of introducing Pamela Geller and me at an event last September in Toronto. The Prime Minister’s office responded by noting the NCCM’s ties to Hamas, whereupon the NCCM threatened to sue.
> 
> So does the NCCM have ties to Hamas or not? The superb Canadian site Point de Bascule answers: “Prime Minister Harper’s director of communications slams the National Council of Canadian Muslims for ‘documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,’” from Point de Bascule, January 17:
> 
> 
> While Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper is getting ready for his first visit to the Middle East scheduled to start on Saturday January 18, the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM ““ known until recently as CAIR-CAN) objected to the presence of Toronto Rabbi Daniel Korobkin in the official delegation.
> 
> Sun News reported that “Jason MacDonald, the prime minister’s director of communications, slammed the NCCM for even making the suggestion. “˜We will not take seriously criticism from an organization with documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,” MacDonald said.”
> 
> The NCCM retorted that MacDonald’s statement was “˜absolutely false” and said that it is not associated with any terrorist group. NCCM Executive Director Ihsaan Gardee added by email that “Our legal counsel is of the view that this statement is defamatory and libelous and we will be taking this up with the PMO.”
> 
> The NCCM considers that Korobkin should not be part of the delegation accompanying PM Harper because, in September 2013, he introduced Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, two anti-Islamist campaigners, at a public meeting in Toronto.
> 
> In order to understand the context of the PMO”s remarks, it is helpful to go back to the origins of CAIR-CAN. CAIR-CAN was established as a branch of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) that had itself been founded by three leaders of a Hamas front group in the United States.
> 
> In their answers to FAQs provided when CAIR-CAN became NCCM, NCCM leaders completely falsified history and claimed that “There was never any operating or funding relationship between CAIR.CAN and CAIR.”)
> 
> The operating relationship between a Hamas front group called Islamic Association of Palestine, CAIR and CAIR-CAN is presented in the following chronology:
> 
> *June 1994* ““ The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was established by three leaders of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP): Nihad Awad, Omar Ahmad and Rafeeq Jaber. The IAP was a front group for Hamas in the United States in the eighties and nineties. In a video archived by the Investigative Project on Terrorism, Nihad Awad expresses his support for Hamas at Barry University in 1994. In 2002, an American judge presiding the case ]Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development v. Ashcroft concluded that the “Islamic Association for Palestine (“IAP”), has acted in support of Hamas.”
> 
> *2000* ““ Foundation of CAIR-CAN
> 
> *December 29, 2000* ““ A CAIR-CAN press release issued in Washington provides the name of a US-based CAIR leader as contact to comment about a fire at a mosque in Canada. In this press release, CAIR-CAN is referred to as CAIR’s “office in Canada.”
> 
> *August 31, 2001 *““ A US-based CAIR leader”s name is added as contact in a CAIR-CAN press release criticizing the Canada-based National Post. In this press release, CAIR-CAN is referred to as “the Canadian office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.”
> 
> *October 10, 2002* ““ Washington-based CAIR files a trade-mark application for an exclusive use of its acronym CAIR in Canada. In the Canadian government”s database, the address of the applicant CAIR is the following:
> 
> 453 New Jersey Avenue, South East
> Washington, D.C. 20003
> United States of America
> 
> *2003* ““ In a Journalist’s Guide to Islam conceived by CAIR-CAN (p. 15), Washington-based CAIR is described as “CAIR-CAN”s parent organization” (p. 14).
> 
> *December 16, 2003* ““ CAIR-CAN Chair Sheema Khan swears in an affidavit supporting Washington-based CAIR in a legal trade-mark battle that it “has direct control” over CAIR-CAN”s activities in Canada.
> 
> *March 10, 2005* ““ A Canadian government agency confirms that, in Canada, the trade-mark on the acronym CAIR belongs to Washington-based CAIR.
> 
> *August 14, 2007* ““ In a list of CAIR chapters, CAIR-CAN appears between CAIR-Ohio and CAIR-Central Pennsylvania.
> 
> *Two CAIR-CAN leaders openly endorsed Hamas after it was listed a terrorist organization by the Liberal government in 2002*
> 
> Jamal Badawi and Wael Haddara are two important pillars of the Muslim Brotherhood infrastructure in Canada. Both were members of CAIR-CAN Board of directors for ten years or so. Badawi was still identified as a CAIR-CAN leader on the organization”s website on May 28, 2013, while Haddara resigned his position on the Board on April 3, 2012. On March 3, 2004, both of them were simultaneously on CAIR-CAN”s Board and on the Muslim Association of Canada“s Board. That day, MAC issued a press release in which it openly endorsed Hamas. That was more than one year after the Canadian government, Liberal back then, had added Hamas to a list of terrorist organizations. The listing is available on Public Safety Canada”s website.
> 
> Apart from being engaged in the destruction of Israel, in recent years Hamas leaders have frequently advocated the Islamic conquest of the West (2008 ““ 2011 ““ 2012). On July 16, 2013, Hamas even threatened to launch terrorist attacks in countries where Israel embassies are located. Canada is among the potential targets, of course….
> .


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I for one welcome the suit, it might prove quite embarrassing to the council and destroy their creditability completely.


----------



## CougarKing

Anyone remember that terror suspect who tried out for Canadian Idol?  :

Yahoo News



> *Dancing doctor to face terror charge more than three years after arrest*
> 
> OTTAWA - More than three years after his arrest, *a man who once auditioned for the Canadian Idol TV show will face trial on a terrorism charge*.
> 
> *Khurram Syed Sher*, a doctor of pathology from London, Ont., is to be tried by judge alone in an Ottawa courtroom starting Monday.
> 
> Sher, 31, was charged along with two other men in August 2010 with *conspiracy to facilitate terrorism*.
> 
> The others cannot be named due to a recently imposed publication ban aimed at ensuring the jury in their trial, slated for April, is not prejudiced.
> 
> Following the sensational arrests, police said they seized terrorist literature, videos and manuals, along with dozens of electronic circuit boards allegedly designed to detonate homemade bombs remotely.
> 
> Three additional men, all believed to be living abroad, have been named as unindicted co-conspirators.
> 
> Police claimed the alleged plot stretched from Ottawa to Afghanistan, Dubai, Iran and Pakistan. A senior RCMP officer said at the time that an attack was still months away, but that the plotters were moving into a preparatory phase.
> 
> (...)


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting development in Toronto, where we find that a large tract of land is being purchased with the sole purpose to build a exclusive enclave for Muslim only people:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.




> OPEN LETTER TO THE VOTERS OF THORNHILL
> 
> FP's Erin Goodwin Opposes Approval of
> Muslim-only Development
> 
> 
> *Ladies and Gentlemen of the Riding of Thornhill:*
> 
> Many of you will know that, on February 4, 2014, a meeting was held at Vaughan City Hall concerning a proposed expansion to the Jaffari Community Centre.  The proposal is for the construction of a 30 acre Muslim-only development involving two condominium towers and a number of townhouses for a total of 377 units.   The meeting drew an overflow crowd because the issue is of great concern, especially to those living near the proposed development.
> 
> A number of concerns have been raised about the development, which reportedly cannot proceed without obtaining special exemptions and approvals from government.  The project reportedly would not comply with zoning and planning criteria without the exemptions and approvals.  In addition, legitimate concern is being caused by the fact that proponents of the development - Islamic Shia Ithna-Asheri Jama'at of Toronto ("ISIJ") - initially made it clear that the intention is for a Muslim-only community on a 30 acre site.
> 
> Thornhill residents go to the polls this coming Thursday, February 13, 2014 to vote in the provincial by-election for the riding of Thornhill.  Concerned voters have written to Freedom Party of Ontario and to Erin Goodwin - Freedom Party's candidate in Thornhill - asking that we state the party's position with respect to the issue of the proposed development.
> 
> This issue is an important one not only for the riding, but for the precedent it could set for the province.  Accordingly, we are writing to ensure that you understand in no uncertain terms Freedom Party's position on the issue, and the position of Erin Goodwin, Freedom Party's candidate.
> 
> Freedom Party, its leader Paul McKeever, and its candidate Erin Goodwin oppose the granting of exemptions or approvals for the 30-acre development.  We oppose it in part because of the many zoning and planning concerns expressed by Thornhill residents who would suffer the consequences - including traffic congestion - were the development to get exemptions and approvals to go ahead.
> 
> However, we also share the concerns of those who oppose - or are puzzled by - the Muslim-only nature of the proposed site.  Freedom Party is quite aware that the religious leader of the ISIJ is an Imam and author who regards only the laws of Allah - Sharia - to be legitimate law.  It would be naive, at the very least, to disregard the exclusive, Muslim-only nature of the proposed development, which we understand to include streets and allowances that would be not private but public lands.
> 
> Contrary to the religious leader of the ISIJ, Freedom Party stands opposed to facilitating respect for Sharia law.  We advocate respect only for the laws made in our legislatures and courts, by the people, for the life and happiness of all of the children and adults on this good earth, of all religions.  We will not support the use of our laws to defend the existence of zones in which the laws made in our legislatures and courts are disregarded or discouraged.
> 
> Having made our own position clear, we encourage the Liberal and Progressive Conservative candidates to do the same, because those who remain mute in order to get elected, will remain mute in order to get re-elected.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> Erin Goodwin (Freedom Party candidate for the riding of Thornhill)
> 
> AND
> 
> Paul McKeever (Leader, Freedom Party of Ontario)
> 
> 
> For further details, contact:
> 
> Paul McKeever, B.Sc.(Hons), M.A., LL.B.
> 
> Erin Goodwin



More info on LINK.

Both sides of this affair are inciting others to act.  On one hand is it the right thing to do to create a large segregated 'ghetto', and on the other hand is it right to 'call to arms' objectors to the plan.  We have already discussed the differences between the US and Canada when it comes to 'assimilation' and 'integration'.  Creating a segregated 'ghetto' is against both of those concepts.


----------



## GAP

Is this any different than a Catholic predominate area, a predominate Jewish area, a Hutterite colony? 

It depends on the restrictions...


----------



## dangerboy

The difference from what I can tell is with a predominate Catholic or Jewish area these occurred because people decided to move in those areas, they were not exclusively Catholic or Jewish anybody could live there but non-whatever religion (or group) chose not to.  With this it sounds like only Muslims can live there and if you are not Muslim you can't live there.


----------



## George Wallace

dangerboy said:
			
		

> The difference from what I can tell is with a predominate Catholic or Jewish area these occurred because people decided to move in those areas, they were not exclusively Catholic or Jewish anybody could live there but non-whatever religion (or group) chose not to.  With this it sounds like only Muslims can live there and if you are not Muslim you can't live there.



Sound familiar......Only a few days ago, University upholds Muslims only can attend classes on Islam.....A trend seems to be developing........Not a good one.


----------



## daftandbarmy

GAP said:
			
		

> Is this any different than a Catholic predominate area, a predominate Jewish area, a Hutterite colony?
> 
> It depends on the restrictions...



The British suffered through a terrorist war in NI spurred largely by the centuries old practise of the ghettoization of Catholics and Protestants. The people who lived in these 'Tribal Areas' as they were called were supposed to be safe, but in reality were preyed upon by extremists and gangsters from their own communities who extorted money from them and did everything a good old fashioned protection racketeer would do to get money, and reluctant volunteers, to support the 'cause'. 

If they allow this to happen, it will likely be horrible for both the people within and outside of the Get-to


----------



## CougarKing

At least they caught him before he could leave...

National Post



> *U.S. reservist arrested after allegedly trying to enter Canada on his way to Syria to join Al-Qaeda-linked group*
> 
> Before he boarded a Greyhound bus to Vancouver on the weekend, U.S. Army National Guard reservist* Nicholas “Assad” Teausant* boasted that he would one day be an infamous Al-Qaeda terrorist.
> 
> “I’m going to be on the front of every single newspaper in the country. Like I want my face on [the] FBI’s top twelve most wanted. Because that means I’m doing something right,” he said.
> 
> But Mr. Teausant’s Al-Qaeda fantasy came to an abrupt end late Sunday when U.S. Customs agents arrested him on a bus in Blaine, Wash., as he was attempting to cross the border into Canada.
> 
> *The 20-year-old private has been charged with attempting to join the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS),* an armed faction that wants to overthrow President Bashar al-Assad and impose its brutal version of Islamic law in the region.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## OldSolduer

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> At least they caught him before he could leave...
> 
> National Post


He must have felt totally excluded....... :facepalm:


----------



## tomahawk6

How about the digger that went to Syria to fight with the rebels and was killed ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/serving-australian-soldier-killed-in-syria/5329184


----------



## CougarKing

A copycat terrorist?

Military.com



> *FBI Hunts Army Recruit Suspected of Plotting Jihad*
> 
> Fox News | Apr 01, 2014 | by Jana Winter
> 
> The FBI is searching for a recent Army recruit believed to be *planning a "Fort Hood-inspired jihad against U.S. soldiers," *FoxNews.com has learned.
> 
> *The alert, whose legitimacy was confirmed by military and law enforcement officials, stated that a man identified as Booker had told friends of his "intention to commit jihad." Booker, who is also known as Muhammad Abdullah Hassan, was recruited by the U.S. Army in Kansas City, Mo., in February 2014 and was scheduled to report for basic training on April 7.* But he was discharged last week, apparently after law enforcement authorities learned of his alleged plan.
> 
> Both the FBI and the 902d Military Intelligence Group at Fort Leavenworth are involved in the hunt.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## CougarKing

Babbar Khalsa in the news again.

How can one be called "comparatively moderate" while maintaining their membership in a terrorist group?  :

Canadian Press



> *Immigration board orders member of Sikh terror group deported from Canada*
> The Canadian Press
> 
> By Keven Drews
> 
> VANCOUVER - Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board has ordered the deportation of a British man for belonging to Sikh separatist group that was engaged in terrorism.
> 
> *Board member Geoff Rempel said in a ruling released Friday that Gurmej Singh Gill was a prominent member of Babbar Khalsa, which was also known as Babbar Khalsa International, and was personally connected to the group's international leaders, travelled extensively, attended conferences and engaged the media.
> *
> Rempel said Gill was likely aware of Babbar Khalsa's terrorist activities during his tenure with the group, whether or not he supported them.
> 
> "It is difficult to believe that Mr. Gill could have been unaware of the terrorist activities perpetrated by the BK/BKI in the 1980s and early 1990s, yet he remained a prominent member of the organization for many years," said Rempel.
> 
> *"Even if Mr. Gill was comparatively moderate and did not approve of those tactics himself, he continued to belong to the organization."*
> 
> As a result, Gill is inadmissible to Canada under the Immigrations and Refugee Protection Act, ruled Rempel.
> 
> Sukhjinder Grewal, Gill's lawyer, was not immediately available for comment.
> 
> When asked if Gill had been deported, the Canada Border Services Agency said it doesn't speak to individual cases because of privacy laws.
> 
> "The decision to remove someone from Canada is not taken lightly," the agency stated in an email. "The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act states that removal orders must be enforced as soon as possible. The CBSA is firmly committed to doing this."
> 
> *Babbar Khalsa has been linked to the 1985 Air India bombing that killed 331 people on two flights that originated in Vancouver*, and the Canadian government added it to a list of banned terror groups in 2003.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## Brad Sallows

Depends on who you're being compared to.  Every oddball political faction needs a couple of members who are really out there so that the remaining members can be billed as "comparatively moderate".


----------



## Edward Campbell

Another group, a 'charity,' is recognized as (or declared to be, if you like) a *terrorist entity* according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/charity-that-worked-in-palestine-added-to-canadas-terrorist-list/article18320497/#dashboard/follows/?click=drive


> Charity that worked with Palestinians added to Canada’s terror list
> 
> DANIEL LEBLANC AND COLIN FREEZE
> Ottawa and Toronto — The Globe and Mail
> 
> Published Tuesday, Apr. 29 2014
> 
> A Mississauga charity that has worked in the Palestinian territories has been added to the federal government’s list of terrorist entities.
> 
> On Tuesday, the government said it had reasonable grounds to believe that the International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy Canada (IRFAN-Canada) has “knowingly carried out, attempted to carry out, participated in or facilitated a terrorist activity or is knowingly acting on behalf of, at the direction of or in association with such an entity.”
> 
> IRFAN-Canada had already lost its licence to issue tax receipts in 2011. The federal government pulled the status after years of tax audits and legal battles over allegations that the charity is tied to Hamas terrorists.
> 
> According to Public Safety Canada, IRFAN-Canada transferred approximately $14.6-million to various organizations associated with Hamas between 2005 and 2009.
> 
> “The Government of Canada is unwavering in its commitment to protect Canadians from the threat of terrorism,” Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said in a statement. “By listing IRFAN-Canada, we are sending the strong message that Canada will not tolerate terrorist activities including the financing of terrorist groups. IRFAN-Canada has knowingly financed Hamas, a listed terrorist entity, for many years. The well intentioned and charitable Canadians who sought to support humanitarian relief through this organization deserve better.”
> 
> According to the Canada Revenue Agency, IRFAN-Canada “provided resources to operating partners that were run by officials of Hamas, openly supported and provided funding to Hamas, or have been listed by various jurisdictions because of their support for Hamas.”
> 
> As of now, it is a crime to “deal in the property or finances” of IRFAN-Canada, according to Public Safety.
> 
> Yavar Hameed, a lawyer representing IRFAN Canada, said in an interview that “I think it is very much a political decision where there is no due process.”
> 
> He pointed out that the charity has a May 6 date where it had hoped to appeal the revocation of its charitable status.  “We're days ahead of the first time we're going to the Federal Court of Appeal," he said, adding that “this just slams the door” on the outcome.
> 
> Mr. Hameed said that the charity has effectively ceased to function since losing its tax status. “The office exists but there’s no paid staff. Just essentially a physical location."
> 
> He stressed that the charity has never been accused of abetting any terrorist acts. Rather, the government allegation, which IRFAN-Canada disputes, is that the charity had allowed some money to be diverted to entities controlled by Hamas in the Gaza strip.
> 
> The blacklisting of IRFAN-Canada is an incremental story that has taken place over the backdrop of more than 10 years .
> 
> Ten years ago, the charity sued MP Stockwell Day -- later the Conservative Public Safety Minister -- for libel after he publicly alleged the group was tied to Hamas. The matter was settled out of court.
> 
> In the early 2000s, the Canada Revenue Agency first explored whether the charity had ties to Hamas. While the initial answer was no, the agency went back at the question between 2008 and 2010, and determined that it was sufficiently tied to Hamas to be blacklisted. This finding appears to set the stage for both the ongoing appeal and the criminal designation.
> 
> There was no Federal Court case involving-IRFAN Canada. In Canada, charitable revocations are appealed directly to the appellate court.
> 
> Records show the charity spent nearly $10-million in 2009, the year that a United Nations agency credited it for helping to build a school for Palestinian girls.
> 
> Ottawa has long targeted groups that are linked to terrorist activities in the Middle East. In 2006, the Conservative government announced that Canada would be the first state to suspend aid to the then-newly elected Hamas government.
> 
> The Conservatives went on to block British MP George Galloway from entering Canada, saying he had violated terrorism laws by being an outspoken Hamas supporter. (Judges overturned the measure and allowed Mr. Galloway to enter.)
> 
> In 1993, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation secretly monitored a meeting of mostly Arab men in a Philadelphia hotel. The FBI came to harbour suspicions that the purpose of the meeting was to set up a vast network to funnel money to Hamas.
> 
> One attendee of the meeting, Canada’s Rasem Abdelmajid, went on to work as a general manager for IRFAN-Canada.


----------



## George Wallace

Do statements by a few such as these necessitate more vigilance and perhaps proactive measures?   Is this the credible threat that demands immediate government action or just a symptom of the times?  (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK



> Jihad becoming ‘as Canadian as maple syrup’ says Calgary man who joined armed extremists in Syria
> 
> The National Post
> Stewart Bell | May 7, 2014 | Last Updated: May 8 7:35 AM ET
> More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP
> 
> A Canadian foreign fighter in Syria taunted the “evil, despotic and Zionist Harper government” on Wednesday, claiming it was losing the battle against extremism and that fighting jihad was becoming “as Canadian as maple syrup.”
> 
> In a blog post, Abu Dujana al-Muhajir, part of a small circle of Calgary youths who left for Syria to join armed extremist groups, said “so-called radical Islamists” were gaining in popularity and the number of Canadian jihadists was growing.
> 
> He denounced leading Canadian Muslims opposed to extremist violence, naming writer Irshad Manji and imams Muhammad Robert Heft and Syed Soharwardy, calling them “deviant” and saying they were outnumbered by militants.
> 
> “Know very well that for every single sellouts [sic] like Tarek Fatah or Mubin Shaikh, we are gaining hundreds of brave Damian Clairmont and Andre Poulin from amongst you who are willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of Allah,” he wrote.
> 
> Mr. Clairmont, who lived on social assistance in Calgary, and Mr. Poulin, who had brushes with the law in Timmins, Ont., were troubled youths who converted to Islam, became radicalized and died soon after arriving in Syria.
> 
> Quoting pro-Al-Qaeda ideologue Anwar Al Awlaki saying that jihad was becoming as American as apple pie and as British as afternoon tea, Abu Dujana wrote it was “high time that we add to his statement ‘and as Canadian as maple syrup.’”
> 
> Responding to the blog post, Mr. Fatah called Abu Dujana an “Islamist promoter of a death cult” but said he agreed with him that those who subscribed to his extremist views should depart Canada to die for their cause.
> 
> “I say hallelujah,” said the author and columnist. “I urge all Canadian Islamists to follow the footsteps of this jihadi and leave Canada, permanently by burning their passports on arrival in Syria, Somalia, Pakistan or Afghanistan or whatever jihadi hellhole they wish to live in, but leave us alone and stop being the parasites that you are, eating away at Canada like termites.”
> 
> Mr. Shaikh, who helped bring down the Toronto 18 terrorist group in 2006, called Abu Dujana and his group “losers with no prospect of meaningful employment and even marriage.” He said they “depict Islam as a religion of terrorism” when “in reality, they are not even Muslims but parade around in its garb.”
> 
> Said Imam Soharwardy, founder of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada: “There is no reward for this from Allah. Their war against innocent Muslims in Syria is not jihad at all. They are committing crimes and will be punished by Allah eternally in their graves.”
> 
> A naturalized Canadian citizen, Abu Dujana, made his comments in a tribute to Mr. Clairmont, who died in Aleppo in January. Written to counter what he called the “devil’s mouthpiece of Western media,” he wrongly claimed Mr. Clairmont had been “kicked out of his house” after his conversion.
> 
> He said a “brother” had introduced Mr. Clairmont to the lectures of Al Awlaki, who was killed in Yemen by a U.S. drone. Abu Dujana and Mr. Clairmont later started a prayer group at the Downtown 8th & 8th Musallah, a Calgary Islamic Centre.
> 
> He said most members of the group “have already made it to various fronts of jihad by the grace of Allah and some have even been awarded with martyrdom like the brother Mustafa [Mr. Clairmont] while the rest of us are waiting for that honour.”
> 
> The National Post revealed last month that the RCMP and Canadian Security Intelligence Service were investigating a small group of Calgary men believed to be fighting in Syria. CSIS says about 30 Canadians have joined extremist groups in Syria.
> 
> National Post
> 
> • Email: sbell@nationalpost.com



More links and photos from LINK:

Related
RCMP tracking ‘high-risk’ Canadians to prevent radicalized youths from joining foreign terrorist groups
The story of how a young man from Calgary ended up dead in Syria
German program that reaches out to young men caught up in radicalism could be template for Canada
Syrian extremists threaten to ‘destroy’ Canada in online video
RCMP raids Muslim relief group’s offices as Canada declares it a terrorist organization


----------



## Brad Sallows

I checked my fridge.  Maple syrup, but no jihadis.  Oh well.

I concur with Mr Fatah.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

We need more Mr Fatah"s!  :nod:


----------



## larry Strong

Moving on to stage 2:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/muslim-group-takes-next-step-in-libel-suit-against-stephen-harper-1.2654252

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> *Muslim group takes next step in libel suit against Stephen Harper*
> 
> A national Muslim organization is proceeding with a lawsuit against Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his chief spokesman for a comment it says linked the organization to a terrorist group.
> 
> The National Council of Canadian Muslims is filing a statement of claim in Ontario Superior Court after failing to get an apology from the Prime Minister's Office for the January remark.
> 
> Lawyer Jeff Saikaley says the council is seeking a public retraction and damages of up to $100,000.
> 
> The comment in question came after the council criticized the inclusion of controversial rabbi Daniel Korobkin in a delegation accompanying Harper to the Middle East.
> 
> In January the council took its first legal step by filing a notice of libel which quotes Harper spokesman Jason MacDonald as saying, "We will not take seriously criticism from an organization with documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas."
> 
> The comment was "categorically false, offensive and defamatory," Ihsaan Gardee, the council's executive director, said at the time.
> 
> 'No choice'
> 
> Discussions between the parties have not resolved the matter.
> 
> "We did have conversations with the lawyer representing Stephen Harper and Jason MacDonald, and we weren't able to reach a satisfactory agreement. So we have no choice but to proceed to the next step," Saikaley said.
> 
> "We're still hopeful that something can be done to avoid an actual trial, but for the time being this is what's been required to protect our client's interests."
> 
> The council describes itself as an independent, non-partisan, non-profit group that has worked for 14 years on human rights and civil liberties issues on behalf of Canadian Muslims.
> 
> A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.





Larry


----------



## Journeyman

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.


Should that be a "rights' group" or a "Harper-hating -- regardless of cause -- group"?


----------



## The Bread Guy

More like "USED TO Walk Among Us"....


> Reports from Lebanon say that a Lebanese-Canadian, who has been on the FBI's most-wanted list of terror suspects, has been killed in Syria.
> 
> One media report published online says Faouzi Ayoub was killed in an ambush by members of the Free Syrian Army in Aleppo last week.
> 
> Ayoub, 48, was a commander of the Islamic militant group Hezbollah, which Canada and the United States have classified as a terrorist organization.
> 
> Before moving back to Lebanon, Ayoub lived in Toronto and Dearborn, Mich ....


A bit more from Egyptian media here.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> "Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent.




I responded to this post before, but this, in the _Globe and Mail_, offers a better explanation. The author ecplains that

     "The practice of murdering daughters and sisters who defy familial wishes and supposedly muddy the ‘honour’ of the family is practically a social institution in the tribal belts of South Asia and the Middle East. But before the reflexive
       Islam bashers begin clearing their throats, it is useful to remember that such crimes have no basis in Islam, which teaches that marriage is a consensual and equal partnership.

      The tribal practice is grounded instead in an antediluvian, violent hatred of female sexuality. Not a fear of sexuality, mind you, but a deeply entrenched loathing of it; where the clan’s entire sense of esteem is defined by the chastity
      of its women. Thus, the woman’s right to self-determination must be negated. Her genitals must be controlled. Her sexuality must be denied. She is to abide by the dictates of her father and brothers or face violent punishments.
      What we call ‘honour killings’ – a placid and useless term – should actually be called human sacrifice, because such murders-of-shame are relics from our premodern days when humans sacrificed one another based on various superstitions.
       Notice the almost universal correlation today between honour killings and illiteracy or general lack of education.

       The extreme patriarchy of Parveen’s father and brother – of countless fathers and brothers around the world – is rooted in a fundamentally totalitarian understanding of male-female relations. For ultratraditional, ultraconservative men
       like Parveen’s father, only absolute dominion over the daughter’s reproductive choices will suffice. Anything short of this is warrant for murder. The logical conclusion of this grotesque thinking is genital mutilation or murders so horrific
       one wonders how such crippling inhumanity poisoned the patriarch’s mind in the first place."

Can we change those "tribal practices?" Yes, but not with a few thousand soldiers in some dusty, dirty, poor country over, say, a dozen years. It is the work of _civilization_ and it is also the work of centuries.


----------



## jollyjacktar

This caught my attention on the drive in today.   



> Suicide bomber killed in Iraq part of wider jihadi base in Calgary
> Salman Ashrafi, killed in 2013 suicide attack, lived in same building as 4 other extremist fighters
> 
> CBC NewsPosted: Jun 03, 2014 8:59 PM ET|
> 
> Homegrown extremism abroad has a new face, and CBC News has learned it belongs to yet another Calgary man, a development that points to the West as a hotbed for exporting jihadis.
> 
> His name is Salman Ashrafi, and when the Al-Qaeda splinter group ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) released images of him last month following a double suicide bombing in Iraq in November that killed 46 people, he was celebrated in a martryrdom notice.  Only then, he was known as Abu Abdullah Al Khorasani.
> 
> CBC News has confirmed that Al Khorasani was Ashrafi's nom de guerre and that he was a Canadian citizen who grew up in the Stampede City, where he went to school and worked.  The Calgarian's story is one of as many as two dozen others, most of whom left to battle alongside rebel militants in Syria.  At one time, Ashrafi led a lifestyle many would have envied, with jobs at Talisman and Exxon and huge downtown Calgary firms.
> 
> Calgary imam stunned
> 
> Much has changed since then. The revelation that he killed himself and others as part of an attack for ISIS — a group known for such grotesque violence it has even drawn condemnation from Al-Qaeda — has stunned people who spoke with CBC News and knew him.
> Among them was Syed Soharwardy, the prominent Calgary imam."Oh, I know him! Oh my God," the cleric said, upon seeing a photo of Ashrafi and being told the militant was killed in the 2013 Tarmiya, Iraq, suicide attack.
> 
> Soharwardy was a longtime acquaintance of the family and had watched Ashrafi and his siblings "grow up in front of me."  Shocking though it may have been, Ashrafi's journey from being a University of Lethbridge student who organized anti-racism rallies to a violent end as a suicide bomber is not an anomaly.
> 
> Calgary connection
> 
> Calgary is earning a reputation as a breeding ground for jihadi fighters.  'It is impossible for me to think the intelligence people do not know who is radicalizing Muslim youth. It is going on undercover; it is going on openly sometimes.'- Syed Soharwardy, Calgary imam
> 
> The Muslim convert Damian Clairmont, who later took the name Mustafa al-Gharib, was killed while fighting with Jabhat al-Nusra, an al-Qaeda-affiliated rebel group in Syria whose membership is made up largely of European, Australian and North American extremists.
> 
> Clairmont was also raised in Calgary, as were as many as two dozen other young men who, according to sources, have travelled to Syria to join rebel extremist groups to wage jihad in the last two years.Understanding the relationships between five men in particular — Ashrafi, two Canadian brothers, Clairmont and his roommate — could be key to unravelling how they became radicalized. CBC News is withholding the identities of the other three men until more information surfaces.
> 
> But they were all friends who dined at the same restaurants, prayed at the same mosque and lived in the same apartment building in downtown Calgary.  According to one source who knew all the men, they had meetings, sometimes in Ashrafi's apartment, where he reportedly instructed them that the only way to live with non-Muslims was to either convert them or subjugate them, and failing that migrate to a land of Islam.  They all left Canada at roughly the same time late 2012.
> 
> Path to violence
> 
> One man who knew Ashrafi in 2009 said he was "both surprised and not surprised" to hear of his path to violent extremism.  Canadian-born Muslim convert Damian Clairmont left Calgary in 2012 for Syria, where he was killed during battle against a faction of the Free Syrian Army.
> 
> "Salman had, within his personality, kind of … two sides to his personality," said the man, who did not want to be named because he is afraid of the consequences of speaking out. "On the one hand, he was an extremely kind and gentle person, but he also had a very black and white view of the world. A kind of simplistic view of the world."
> 
> Ashrafi's views troubled him.  "I tried to bring it up with him in conversation on a few occasions, but my own feeling was that he's just going to learn on his own as he grows older," he said, characterizing Ashrafi as "impressionable."  "He might have been around certain charismatic preachers in the community that might not have had his best interests in mind," he added.
> 
> It's a thought shared by Soharwardy, the Calgary imam, who has received death threats for speaking out about this topic, but feels compelled to in order to stop men in his city from killing and dying on jihadi missions abroad.  "It is impossible for me to think the intelligence people do not know who is radicalizing Muslim youth. It is going on undercover; it is going on openly sometimes," he said.
> 
> "The thing is they are recruiting Muslims to go and fight in Syria and getting them killed. It is horrible.… What is the Canadian government doing? Nothing. I mean this guy died, many, many … people died from our country. For what?"
> 
> Soharwardy said he has told police and university administrators, warning them about lecturers who might be preying on vulnerable young minds and that he believes he knows which organizations may be radicalizing young men. So far, he said, there has been no response.
> 
> CBC News reached out to the city as well as local police, who declined to comment.
> 
> As for what might have motivated Ashrafi to carry out such a deadly attack in Iraq, his family are perplexed, and still have many questions of their own. In emails to CBC News, a family member said the reports were "shocking and unbelievable," and that the family have still not accepted "that this is how Salman's life ended."
> With files from Nazim Baksh, Adrienne Arsenault
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/suicide-bomber-killed-in-iraq-part-of-wider-jihadi-base-in-calgary-1.2663890


----------



## d_edwards

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> I checked my fridge.  Maple syrup, but no jihadis.  Oh well.
> 
> I concur with Mr Fatah.



Now that is funny.


----------



## The_Falcon

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I responded to this post before, but this, in the _Globe and Mail_, offers a better explanation. The author ecplains that
> 
> "The practice of murdering daughters and sisters who defy familial wishes and supposedly muddy the ‘honour’ of the family is practically a social institution in the tribal belts of South Asia and the Middle East. But before the reflexive
> Islam bashers begin clearing their throats, it is useful to remember that such crimes have no basis in Islam, which teaches that marriage is a consensual and equal partnership.
> 
> The tribal practice is grounded instead in an antediluvian, violent hatred of female sexuality. Not a fear of sexuality, mind you, but a deeply entrenched loathing of it; where the clan’s entire sense of esteem is defined by the chastity
> of its women. Thus, the woman’s right to self-determination must be negated. Her genitals must be controlled. Her sexuality must be denied. She is to abide by the dictates of her father and brothers or face violent punishments.
> What we call ‘honour killings’ – a placid and useless term – should actually be called human sacrifice, because such murders-of-shame are relics from our premodern days when humans sacrificed one another based on various superstitions.
> Notice the almost universal correlation today between honour killings and illiteracy or general lack of education.
> 
> The extreme patriarchy of Parveen’s father and brother – of countless fathers and brothers around the world – is rooted in a fundamentally totalitarian understanding of male-female relations. For ultratraditional, ultraconservative men
> like Parveen’s father, only absolute dominion over the daughter’s reproductive choices will suffice. Anything short of this is warrant for murder. The logical conclusion of this grotesque thinking is genital mutilation or murders so horrific
> one wonders how such crippling inhumanity poisoned the patriarch’s mind in the first place."
> 
> Can we change those "tribal practices?" Yes, but not with a few thousand soldiers in some dusty, dirty, poor country over, say, a dozen years. It is the work of _civilization_ and it is also the work of centuries.



A less extreme example of this viewpoint  in "Modern" "Christian" societies is the growing prevalence of "Purity Balls" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2586036/You-married-Lord-daddy-boyfriend-Purity-Balls-girls-gift-virginity-fathers-marriage-sweep-America.html)  while definately not high in violence, pretty high in the WTF/Creepy factor (IMHO) and definately inside the sphere of controlling girls/women's sexuality, since AFAIK no corresponding event for boys.


----------



## OldSolduer

ER that is f#%king sick. 

It's no wonder I do not subscribe to any organized religion.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> ER that is f#%king sick.
> 
> It's no wonder I do not subscribe to any organized religion.




Except that it is *NOT* a religious issue ... it's not unique to Islam or to Hindus or even to some Christian sects.

It is cultural and, contrary to what Liberals and fellow travelers say, all cultures are *not* equal; some are strong and flexible enough to change as their understandings of the world in which they live evolve; others are weak and rigid, afraid to change ... large parts of South-Eastern Europe (you served there, I think), the Middle East (many of us served there) and Central Asia (where a lot of your younger friends have served) have weak, rigid cultures - some of them are Islamic, some are Christian, others are something else.

It's not about religion ...


----------



## OldSolduer

Understood ER.


Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.


----------



## The_Falcon

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Understood ER.
> 
> 
> Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.



I think the religious connection happens for 2 (sometimes) interconnected reasons.

1) It makes it an easier and more convient target to say x religion are misogynistic thugs.  Say it loudly enough and people ignore the misogyny in y and z religions. 

2) Some people deliberately invoke religion because it makes it easier to control others.  Telling people they need to comply with you directives, simply because you want them to, kinda goes over like a lead balloon.  Telling people they need to comply, because if they don't God/Allah/Yahweh/Flying Spagehetti Monster will be pissed and you will face eternal damnation, seems to bring about more compliant behaviour in "believers".


----------



## OldSolduer

Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Hhhhmmm m

I watched CBC Newsworld this morning and it seems the city of Calgary is a fertile recruiting ground for jihadists.....24 in the past few years have joined......


----------



## The_Falcon

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Flying Spaghetti Monster?



http://www.venganza.org/


----------



## GAP

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Understood ER.
> Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.



Oh...like burning witches?


----------



## jollyjacktar

There really should, ER, be a better name for what those barbarian's and their beliefs are and come from than "culture".  They are anything but, "cultured".


----------



## OldSolduer

GAP said:
			
		

> Oh...like burning witches?



Or stoning people to death for various infractions of their "religion".


----------



## BorisK

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Or stoning people to death for various infractions of their "religion".



I seem to recall Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) once saying something along the lines of : 'be funny about the serious stuff in life and serious about the funny stuff and you'll be for the most part alright' so with sentiment in mind :

http://youtu.be/bDe9msExUK8

(Sorry, pardon the hijack. It's been a long day and I needed some comic relief.) : )


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting update on some of the Calgarians who have left the country to fight as insurgents in jihads in the Middle East and Africa, and some of their backgrounds.  In some cases, Canada has accepted these people as refugees from Islamic states in conflict, and now may be in a position of accepting "Canadian citizens" back into our country who have publicly displayed anti-West statements and barbaric activities as insurgents in foreign nations.


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


LINK



> Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary fighting with Islamic State of Iraq and Syria
> 
> Somali-Canadian in his 20s appears in passport burning video uttering threats against West
> CBC News Posted: Jun 18, 2014 9:00 PM ET
> Last Updated: Jun 19, 2014 8:39 AM ET
> 
> Farah Mohamed Shirdon, a Calgarian in his early 20s, is fighting overseas with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, CBC News has learned.
> 
> Shirdon, who was enrolled in the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology until at least 2012, appears in an ISIS video released two months ago.
> 
> Before burning his Canadian passport, Shirdon, in full view of the camera lens, issues a threat to Canada, the U.S. and "all oppressors."
> 
> "We are coming and we will destroy you by the will of God," Shirdon says on the video.
> 
> He comes from a prominent and well-educated Somali family. His father’s brother, Abdi Farah Shirdon, was a former prime minister of Somalia who has survived numerous attempts on his life by al-Shabab militants fighting for an Islamic state in Somalia under the banner of al-Qaeda.
> 
> Shirdon’s mother and sister live in Calgary and are deeply involved in the religious life of their community. CBC News reached out to them repeatedly, but they would only say they are "confused and pained by Farah’s choice," before asking for privacy.
> 
> Though it’s unclear how real his threats are, Shirdon is the latest young man from Calgary to be identified by CBC News as a Canadian fighting overseas.
> 
> In January, the CBC’s Adrienne Arsenault first reported on the death of Damian Clairmont, a 22-year-old Canadian-born Muslim who left Calgary for Syria in 2012 and was killed by rebel infighting there.
> 
> CBC News also reported on Salman Ashrafi, a Calgary man involved in a November 2013 suicide mission in Iraq under the banner of ISIS.
> 
> A ‘regular guy’
> 
> Both Clairmont and Ashrafi were members of a small group of at least six men who used an apartment building in downtown Calgary as a hub to discuss radical ideas and chart their path to jihad in Syria and Iraq, CBC News has learned, but it’s not clear if Shirdon was a member of their inner circle as well.
> 
> One reliable source declined to say if Shirdon was connected to the group, who prayed at the so-called 8th and 8th Musalla and frequented the same restaurants.
> 
> Hamza Ayedi, an outreach co-ordinator for Muslim youth in Calgary who knew Shirdon, said he never saw Shirdon in the company Clairmont and Ashrafi, but that all three individually expressed the same sentiments of "not feeling comfortable living in this country" and "wanting to go live in a Muslim country."
> 
> Ayedi said the ISIS passport-burning video became popular a few weeks ago when news began circulating in the community that one of their own can be seen participating.
> 
> "I was really shocked because he has evolved big time, I don’t remember him even saying anything like that," said Ayedi, who last saw Shirdon this past September.
> 
> “He was just a regular guy.”
> 
> 130 Canadians have joined terror groups: CSIS
> 
> After burning his passport and uttering threats of violence, it is unlikely Shirdon will be allowed back into Canada. But there is a concern now that even more residents of Calgary may follow his lead.
> 
> No one knows for sure how many men from Calgary, or Canada as a whole, have left to wage jihad in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere.
> 
> Ayedi said that when CSIS visited him a few months ago, they showed him pictures of 10 Muslim men from Calgary and asked him what he knew about them or their whereabouts.
> 
> In February, Canadian Security Intelligence Service director Michel Coulombe testified before the Senate national security and defence committee hearing that an estimated 130 Canadians had gone abroad to join terror groups in Syria, Yemen, Somalia and north Africa.
> 
> Coulombe estimated that some 30 alone had left for the Syria-Iraq area.
> 
> Coulombe also announced in late March that CSIS was tracking up to 80 Canadians suspected of having participated in terror activities abroad before returning to Canada.
> 
> Low profile
> 
> Shirdon’s passport-burning video was made to be seen — at one point, he lists the places ISIS wants to attack: "God willing, after Syria, after Iraq, after Jazeera (the Arabian Peninsula), we are going for you Barack Obama" — but he kept a low profile in Calgary.
> 
> The source who declined to say if Shirdon belonged to the same group as Ashrafi and Clairmont did say that those two men and at least four others would hold secret meetings to avoid detection.
> 
> So far, it’s been enough to keep CSIS and the RCMP’s Integrated National Security Enforcement Team playing catch-up.
> 
> Calgary police said they’ve been watching radicalization in the city for eight years, and briefed city politicians on their work after news of Ashrafi’s suicide bombing.
> 
> Neither the City of Calgary, local police or the RCMP would speak with CBC News on the extent of the threat to Canada or what is being done to tackle religious extremism at home.
> 
> The Islamic Information Society of Calgary issued a news release to CBC saying it’s been warning youth about those who would recruit them for radical causes.
> 
> “Our message to the youth has been crystal clear:  if someone is telling you that you will go to Paradise by blowing yourself up in a plane, a train or a public place taking your life and the lives of innocent people, then he is misleading you and committing a crime against the whole society and against the Islamic religion itself,” said Hacene Chebbani, the IISC’s director of religious affairs, in the news release.
> 
> The organization also called on all Muslim Canadian organizations to stamp out radical views “within our circles.”
> 
> With files from Adrienne Arsenault and Nazim Baksh



More on LINK.

Recent terrorism-related cases with Canadian connections


----------



## jollyjacktar

I do believe the Feds are working on a plan to strip citizenship from those who hold dual status and leave Canada to be terrorists with ISIS etc.  If that's the case here with this POS, then hopefully he won't get his burned passport replaced and can stay the hell away from here when he wants to come back if the Feds get their act together.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I do believe the Feds are working on a plan to strip citizenship from those who hold dual status and leave Canada to be terrorists with ISIS etc.  If that's the case here with this POS, then hopefully he won't get his burned passport replaced and can stay the hell away from here when he wants to come back if the Feds get their act together.



Too often, however, we have seen our own "Charter of Rights" used, or abused, depending on how you look at it, to protect their "rights".


----------



## George Wallace

Here is an interesting presentation on the debates into the deaths of four Americans at the embassy in Benghazi.  A Muslim woman asks a question to which Brigitte Gabriel replies (on the video linked to article). 

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


LINK



> Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly
> 
> The Right Scoop
> Posted on Jun 18, 2014 at 9:34 AM in Politics | 330 Comments
> 
> This Heritage event on Benghazi has gotten a lot of press over the last day or two, with the left claiming the event turned ‘ugly‘ and that the Muslim woman was ‘pounced on’ and ‘bullied’ by members of the panel.
> 
> But after watching it myself, that characterization couldn’t be more wrong. In fact Brigitte Gabriel’s answer to this Muslim woman is perhaps the best answer I’ve ever heard to the ‘peaceful Muslims’ question.



Videos attached to article in 
LINK.


----------



## BurnDoctor

Perhaps Mr. Pitt's character in Inglorious Basterds (sic) said it best, re: those wanting to to pay the ultimate price for their country (Nazi Germany, in the case of that film, here substitute "cause" or "twisted belief system"):  "Oblige him".


----------



## CougarKing

CBC



> Updated: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 05:00:00 GMT | By CBC News, cbc.ca
> *The life of a jihadi wife: Why one Canadian woman joined ISIS's Islamic state*
> 
> Eight months ago, *Umm Haritha*, a 20-year-old woman from Canada, made her way to Turkey against her parents’ wishes with a half-empty suitcase and $1,500.
> 
> Within a week she was in Syria, and a few weeks later she was married to *Abu Ibrahim al-Suedi*, a 26-year-old Palestinian from Sweden fighting for Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the Sunni jihadist group battling the Syrian regime.
> 
> It is not clear whether Umm Haritha's marriage to Abu Ibrahim was arranged before her travel to Syria. Regardless, it only lasted five months.
> 
> On May 5, Abu Ibrahim, whose real name is *Taha Shade*, was in a car en route to a meeting in Deir ez-Zor with members of rival faction Jabhat al-Nusra. What was meant to be a gathering to finalize a peace treaty between ISIS and al-Nusra turned deadly when an al-Nusra fighter on a motorbike sped up to Shade’s car and detonated his explosive belt.
> 
> At the time, Shade was wearing his own explosive belt, which also went off and blew him to pieces.
> 
> Two days later, Umm Haritha tweeted about her husband’s death, calling on “Allah” to “destroy those who backstabbed the brothers and resurrect Abu Ibrahim with noor [light] from every piece of his body.”
> 
> Umm Haritha’s journey to Syria highlights an underreported part of the western Jihadist experience in Syria.
> 
> *While the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation (ICSR) has estimated that up to 2,800 Western men have gone to Syria to fight, much less is known about the Western women who have gone over to marry jihadists since the Syrian civil war began three years ago.
> 
> The ICSR has located 28 such women who are currently active on social media.*
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## Transporter

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> CBC



They should open a "gofundme" account. I'd gladly donate for airfare and per diem.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting comments out of Australia.  Sound familiar?




> Published on Jun 29, 2014
> www.planetcideradio.com
> This was pulled off AUSTRALIA's Today Tonight and never aired!
> This clip was made by Today Tonight, Channel 7 a while ago.
> Due to political correctness it was decided not to broadcast it.
> However it has been leaked out.



Link to short version, with disclaimer above.

LINK to full version.


----------



## George Wallace

Not sure on the accuracy of this, nor the credibility rating of this website, but this is disturbing if true:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Media Silent as Muslims Ethnically Cleanse 60,000 Christians in Philippines
> 
> FRONTPAGE MAG
> September 15, 2013 by Daniel Greenfield
> 
> Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.
> 
> 
> 
> When thousands of Muslims become refugees, then you can’t get the media to shut up about it for weeks. Thousands of Muslim migrants invading Burma became “refugees” and the media has spent the better part of a year ranting about how evil the Buddhists are.
> 
> But when Muslim terrorists attack a Christian city creating tens of thousands of refugees, you couldn’t pay the media to cover the story, whether it’s in Syria, Egypt or closer to home in the Philippines.
> 
> Philippine troops have started to battle their way into coastal villages in the south where Muslim rebels have held scores of residents hostage in a six-day standoff, sparking fierce clashes that have killed 56 people and displaced more than 60,000, officials said Saturday.
> 
> President Benigno Aquino III said more firefights were expected but assured more than 62,000 displaced villagers being sheltered at a sports complex in Zamboanga city that the rebels’ capability to sow trouble has been degraded and the government was working to end the crisis soon.
> 
> Zamboanga is the 6th largest city in the country and 3/4 Christian and an obvious target for the MNLF Muslim terrorists (who are of course denying responsibility and blaming a rogue leader). It’s an obvious target because of its central influence in Mindanao. It’s the city that Muslims want. And it’s likely that the MNLF is finding shelter in the Muslim parts of the city.




More on LINK.

Reposted on SHARIA UNVEILED with youtube video.


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting comments out of Australia.  Sound familiar?
> 
> 
> Link to short version, with disclaimer above.
> 
> LINK to full version.


Familiar enough to make my blood boil.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Some good new from a suburban Toronto courtroom: "Mohamed Hersi, a Toronto man convicted of trying to travel overseas to join a terrorist group, was sentenced Thursday morning ... to 10 years in prison – the maximum penalty for the charges he faced."


----------



## jollyjacktar

Excellent, but not long enough to suit me.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

A cut and paste from an email I received.

Subject: Dutch Orchestra Walks Out..!!

Dutch Orchestral Concert  Friday, 09 May, 2014 !

Queen Beatrix of Holland attends an Orchestral Concert.  The Conductor, who just happens to be Muslim, proceeds to give the Queen a lecture on the "beauty" of Islam.

The members of the Orchestra stage a walkout! 

Interestingly this did not make the news in Canada or the USA.

http://www.safeshare.tv/w/cqjiYhtiXs


----------



## CougarKing

Canadian Press



> Updated: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:51:45 GMT | By The Canadian Press, thecanadianpress.com
> *Court rules terrorism suspect can be extradited*
> 
> EDMONTON - The Alberta Court of Appeal has ruled that an Alberta man should be extradited to the United States to face terrorism and murder charges.
> 
> *Sayfildin Tahir Sharif* is accused of murder and supporting a terrorist group that took part in suicide bombings in his native Iraq.
> 
> The Americans allege Sharif worked from Edmonton to help a Tunisian man enter Iraq in 2009 and detonate a truck filled with explosives at a military checkpoint, killing five U.S. soldiers.
> 
> Prosecutors contend that evidence from intercepted Internet and phone conversations shows that Sharif was directly involved in supporting Tunisian terrorists, who conducted the suicide bombing, by helping them make contact with other supporters as they made their way across the Middle East to Iraq.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good riddance.  Hope they see it through to the final escort to the nearest portal.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

recceguy said:
			
		

> A cut and paste from an email I received.
> 
> Subject: Dutch Orchestra Walks Out..!!
> 
> Dutch Orchestral Concert  Friday, 09 May, 2014 !
> 
> Queen Beatrix of Holland attends an Orchestral Concert.  The Conductor, who just happens to be Muslim, proceeds to give the Queen a lecture on the "beauty" of Islam.
> 
> The members of the Orchestra stage a walkout!
> 
> Interestingly this did not make the news in Canada or the USA.
> 
> http://www.safeshare.tv/w/cqjiYhtiXs



any idea on the "requests" he made?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sorry Colin, no idea.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> any idea on the "requests" he made?


To join Islam. 

And it wasn't the conductor, but some guy who took to the stage and known to police "disrupting meetings and "making a confused impression." "  Incident happened in 2011. (original in Dutch)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oh dear, such a tragic turn of events...  >

Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary, fighting for ISIS, dead in Iraq, reports say


----------



## x_para76

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Oh dear, such a tragic turn of events...  >
> 
> Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary, fighting for ISIS, dead in Iraq, reports say



Oh, that's a shame.


----------



## OldSolduer

X_para76 said:
			
		

> Oh, that's a shame.



Why yes....yes it is. Poor misunderstood young lad....


----------



## CougarKing

One should include all those Somali-Canadians who went to fight for Al-Shabab among those mentioned below:



Defense News



> *Armed With Passports, IS Fighters Could Threaten US*
> Aug. 22, 2014 - 09:54AM   |   By RICK HAMPSON
> 
> After U.S. planes bombed its forces in Iraq, the jihadist juggernaut that calls itself the Islamic State threatened to attack Americans "in any place,'' adding for good measure: "We will drown all of you in blood.''
> 
> For now, facing a multi-front war and bombs falling on their fighters' heads, the Islamic State's leaders probably lack the time and opportunity to plot a strike on the U.S. homeland.
> 
> That could change if thousands of fighters with Western passports return home, terrorism analysts warn.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## Old Sweat

In the local boy makes good department (I live in Kemptville) here is a story in today's Ottawa Citizen reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act about our local Jimmy Jihad:

Jihadi from Kemptville and Ottawa was smart, funny and 'ambitious', friends say

SARAH BOESVELD 
Published on: August 28, 2014Last Updated: August 28, 2014 9:52 AM EDT

Before he felt the pull of Syria’s Islamic extremists, before he started going by the name Yahya, and before he found his self-described “opportunity for martyrdom,” John Maguire was just another Kemptville teenager whose sharp wit sometimes got him into trouble.

Former classmate Evan Massey remembers being kicked out of class with Maguire — known to his peers as “JMag” — who teased him when he struggled to read something aloud during Grade 11 English.

In the halls and classrooms of North Grenville District High School, Maguire was far from the strident, opinionated loner those who knew him later in life describe: He was smart, funny and sarcastic.

He and a friend would routinely read the morning announcements over the school’s intercom, throwing in a few inappropriate inside jokes and calling out the principal for not standing up during O Canada. He was involved in student council. He got 80s on his report card.

But he also played his cards close to his chest. “He kept to himself about a lot of things that were either important or things that bugged him,” Massey remembered. His parents divorced when he was in his early teens, when his love for punk rock flourished.

The young man pushed boundaries, but also laughed about those who pushed too far.

“The really punk thing to say was ‘Anarchy, maaaan,'” Massey remembered. “He would make fun of that almost on the daily.”

But when their senior year began, “JMag” was nowhere to be seen. He just disappeared.

Few who’d gone to school with him heard anything about him until this week when Postmedia News reported the RCMP was investigating his presence in Syria.


But his path there had many stops since Kemptville: In Grade 12 he was living with his grandparents and attending Hillcrest High School in Alta Vista. Then, it was off to Los Angeles.

When he returned, friends noticed a Facebook status update announcing his conversion to Islam. He began studies at the University of Ottawa before buying a one-way ticket to Syria in January 2013.

The ideology Maguire expressed on social media is aligned with the Islamic State of Iraq & Al-Sham (ISIS), which a new UN Human Rights Council report, released Wednesday, accused of carrying out public executions — typically beheadings — to terrorize populations under their control. ISIS is also the extremist group that released the video of American journalist James Foley’s beheading.

Maguire was always an “out of the box” thinker and “strong-willed intellectually,” said one source who knew him in high school.

“Maybe it does kind of make sense that if he fell into that world, he’d go full blast into it.”

But to friend Luke Lavictoire, that intelligence and intensity usually came in the form of fervent researching to decide for himself whether he wanted to take up a cause or jump on a bandwagon.

“He definitely asks a lot of questions. He’s not a dumb kid, and for someone to misguide him or mislead him, he wouldn’t say ‘yes’ to anything,” Lavictoire said. “He would make sure he had all of the answers before doing something drastic.”

He remembers his friend as “ambitious.”

“He wanted to do something with his life, for sure,” Lavictoire said. “I still can’t believe this is him.”

A close friend from high school, who asked not to be identified, said he always expected Maguire to do “great things, which is why I was saddened to hear about his recent inclinations toward radical extremism,” he wrote in a Facebook message to Postmedia.

“Everything that I hear about him now is honestly nothing like the JMag we knew, and from the time we spent jammin’ in high school, or hanging out on the weekend, I never noticed any behaviour that would have fostered that sort of hatred towards any religious or social groups.”

Maguire loved hockey perhaps even more than punk rock, the friend said. Eventually he took more of a shine to 1990s dance and hip hop music — particularly the band 2 Unlimited and Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch, but would still pick up a guitar and play classic rock or punk.

On his Facebook account, disabled after a reporter reached out, Maguire said, “evil is very prominent in Canadian culture, homosexuality, fornication and adultery are generally accepted, drugs and alcohol are easily accessible and widely accepted as being ‘normal,’ women and men are often not properly covered, music is widespread in public places.”

Maguire was “straight edge” in high school, Massey and Lavictoire recall — never touching alcohol or drugs, but certainly playing music in public. He was the one who started The Shackles, Massey said, inviting the young bass player to join. They played a few shows in the basement of the church, where Massey is now a pastor, and he remembers his friend having questions about faith.

“He definitely didn’t know anything about God,” he said.

At a diner in Ottawa two weeks ago, Massey was talking with an old high school friend about former classmates, when Maguire’s name came up. (Maguire had long ago unfriended Massey from Facebook.)

“He’s gotten into being a Muslim pretty hard,” Massey recalled his friend saying.

For his part, Lavictoire wishes he could have helped “JMag” sooner.

“There are tons of things I could sit down and say, but I don’t know if he’ll get out alive,” he said.

“It sounds like he’s on a one-way street right now.”


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another one I don't want to see return to these shores.  Good riddance.


----------



## Transporter

If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.


----------



## CougarKing

Transporter said:
			
		

> If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.



How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?


----------



## Transporter

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?



There's probably no practical way of making it work in many cases, but it sure felt good saying it.


----------



## George Wallace

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?



It can and has been done.  http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/15/i-cant-be-stateless-born-in-canada-criminal-fighting-deportation-after-ottawa-decides-citizenship-not-valid/


----------



## jollyjacktar

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?


If there's a will, there's a way, so it is said.  (if only, if only)


----------



## George Wallace

Now this is scary and coming to a city near you:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10203966306293667

Currently in the UK and spreading.  We have already seen calls for Sharia Law in Ontario in the past.


----------



## OldSolduer

If Dalton McGinty told them to pound salt, I'd venture to guess PM Harper would tell them the same thing.


I know what I would tell them.


----------



## GAP

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> If Dalton McGinty told them to pound salt, I'd venture to guess PM Harper would tell them the same thing.
> I know what I would tell them.



If I remember correctly the Ontario government seriously considered allowing it until the public outcry put paid to it.....


----------



## OldSolduer

GAP said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly the Ontario government seriously considered allowing it until the public outcry put paid to it.....



That could be and I would imagine - hope - that the Canadian public would scream bloody murder.


----------



## Edward Campbell

In fact, as I recall (and I'm happy to be corrected), the Gov't of Ontario took away some longstanding _*Jewish*_ religious court rights privileges, dealing with family law, to soften the blow, as it were. In the process they did the right thing: the Canadian civil law applies to everyone, equally, regardless of race or creed ~ no religious body (e.g. a rabbinical court) has any special status.


----------



## AmmoTech90

Transporter said:
			
		

> If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.



And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.

I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.

Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.


----------



## Edward Campbell

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.
> 
> I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.
> 
> Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.




I agree, especially with the highlighted bit.

We have replaced a solid education (in classrooms and by example) in the virtues and values of our _liberal_, secular, democratic and capitalist culture with _"rah-rah"_ flag waving _patriotism_ and the weak tea of _mulitculuralism_.


----------



## CougarKing

The British government taking precautions concurrent with its involvement in Iraq...

Business Insider



> *UK Raises Terror Threat Level To 'Severe'*
> Business Insider
> By Brett LoGiurato – 50 minutes ago
> 
> 
> Britain's Prime Minister David Cameron (C) and Home Secretary Theresa May (3rd R) speak to Police Sergeant Gerry Harrison (R), during a visit to look at new community police crime prevention initiatives, including targeted CCTV and a new PC based mobile device, in Cheshunt, southern England July 17, 2013.
> 
> Britain's government has raised the country's terror threat level to "severe,"  Home Secretary Theresa May said Friday.
> 
> *It's the fourth-highest of five potential threat levels. According to the U.K. government, it means an attack is "highly likely." But there is no intelligence to suggest an attack is imminent.*
> 
> May said the threat level was raised in general because of the deteriorating situation in Iraq and Syria, where extremist militants from the group calling itself the Islamic State (also ISIS or ISIL). May said, however, that there was no specific threat to Britain that caused the raise in the terror level.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Many of these radicals are well known to the authorties in the UK.  If they cannot be deported because they are "citizens", perhaps they need to bring back internment camps for the radicals.


----------



## CougarKing

Perhaps another reason for the increased terror alert in the UK:



> *Seized ISIS Laptop In Syria Contains Plans For 'Bubonic Plague' Weapons*
> 
> By Tom Porter, IBTimes UK
> on August 29 2014 11:45 AM
> International Business Times
> 
> *A laptop allegedly seized from an ISIS (also known as Islamic State) base in Syria contains plans to launch devastating terror attacks harnessing the bubonic plague.
> *
> 
> Discovered by a moderate rebel group from an IS base in Idlib, northern Syria, in January, the computer belonged to a Tunisian militant and also contains instructions on how to build explosives, use disguises to travel undetected, and plans to build chemical weapons.
> 
> *The advantage of biological weapons is that they do not cost a lot of money, while the human casualties can be huge," *a document retrieved from the computer stated.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Wasn't there a group in N Africa a couple of years ago that were playing around with weaponizing the plauge and it got away from them?  Maybe these turds have got their shit together.  But don't health authorities have a grip on dealing with things like plague?  After all it's not the dark ages, well maybe it is in ISISville.


----------



## Transporter

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.
> 
> I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.
> 
> Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.



You probably should have read my post after the one you just quoted.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a group in N Africa a couple of years ago that were playing around with weaponizing the plauge and it got away from them?  Maybe these turds have got their shit together.  But don't health authorities have a grip on dealing with things like plague?  After all it's not the dark ages, well maybe it is in ISISville.





Hmmmmm?  Ebola?


Maybe that is the solution.


----------



## George Wallace

Norway is thinking of doing this:

Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless'



> Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless'
> By Gianluca Mezzofiore
> August 27, 2014 11:17 BST
> 
> The Norwegian government has announced that it is considering revoking citizenship from individuals taking part in terrorist activities and wars in the Middle East.
> 
> Minister of children and equality Solveig Horne said that "this is a strong signal to people wanting to take part in terror operations and wars", according to TNB news site.
> 
> "We will turn over every stone to find the necessary measures to prevent radicalisation and extremism," she continued. "We will begin discussion about introducing regulations on revocation for any citizen causing serious damage to vital government interests or who has volunteered to serve in foreign military services."
> 
> The government is worried about Norwegian citizens who travel to Syria and Iraq to join the jihadists of Isis (known as the Islamic State). In May, a 25-year-old from Oslo, Egzon Avdyli, was reported to have been killed in Syria where he had been fighting for Isis.
> 
> The former leader of the Prophet's Ummah, a Norwegian Islamist Group, celebrated Avdyli's death on Facebook.
> 
> Norwegian intelligence said in its 2014 report that an estimated 40 to 50 Norwegians were thought to have fought in Syria with extremist groups like Isis and the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra front.
> 
> Jihadists returning to the Scandinavian country are considered the most dangerous terror threat to the country, according to a report in Aftenposten.
> 
> At least 100 Scandinavians are believed to have gone to Syria for jihad.
> 
> The debate over stripping Islamist militants of citizenship is also taking place in other European countries such as Britain.
> 
> The coalition government has come under pressure to impose tougher penalties on terrorists fighting in the Middle East. George Carey, the former archbishop of Canterbury, said jihadists should be stripped of their British passports and barred from returning to the UK.
> 
> His sentiments were echoed by David Davis, the Conservative backbencher. He said: "Lawyers would say you cannot render someone stateless. Perhaps, perhaps not," said Davis. "Whitehall lawyers have been wrong before. Democracies have a right to defend themselves."
> 
> The home secretary Theresa May said she already can remove citizenship from extremists with dual nationality. Naturalised Britons can also lose their passport according to a recently approved legislation.
> 
> But she warned she could not strip people born in Britain of their citizenship because it is illegal "for any country to make its citizens stateless".
> 
> The UK has ratified the 1954 UN Convention on Stateless Persons and the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness which forbid governments to make their citizens stateless.


----------



## GAP

The biggest problem with this  Ebola epidemic is the outright lies by leaders, disbelief and superstition on the part of the people....they are their own worst enemy.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.

"We" haven't failed; the bovine anti-establishmentarians who disregard the consequences of whatever they currently wish to tear down have not really torn down very much yet.  These are simply horses which refuse to drink the water that has been placed in front of them.

If a person leaves Canada to fight for another country, that's his burden, subject to one caveat: if he leaves Canada to fight against Canada, we should kill, incapacitate, or capture him.


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Norway is thinking of doing this:
> 
> Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless'


I like it.  Let's start with "that family".


----------



## BorisK

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I like it.  Let's start with "that family".



Random shot in the dark here, but just for fun I'm going to take a guess : Khadr family is whom you are referring to?


----------



## a_majoor

More on AmmoTech90's point. Because these people bring their "culture" and refuse to assimilate into the liberal, democratic, free market culture of the West. (The fact that our own "elites" in the media, academia and politics also seem to have rejected this culture is an issue for a different thread). The shameful culture of domestic abuse is alive and well in the UK (and by extension possibly everywhere there are large, unassimilated pockets of these cultures in the West):

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir



> *The untold story of how a culture of shame perpetuates abuse. I know, I was a victim*
> The extraordinary story of Ruzwana Bashir: the Oxford-educated entrepreneur brought up in a British-Pakistani community shares her own story to tear down the wall of silence around the exploitation of Asian girls
> Ruzwana Bashir
> 
> A decade after leaving her home town of Skipton, Ruzwana Bashir finally felt able to return and testify against her abuser. Photograph: Kevin Abosch
> Ruzwana Bashir
> Friday 29 August 2014 17.49 BST
> 
> It was with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes that I read about the horrific cases of abuse and neglect revealed in the Rotherham report this week.
> 
> Much of the media coverage has focused on how men of mostly Asian descent preyed on vulnerable young white victims. The details of this abuse are awful. But what has largely been ignored is the report’s finding that sexual abuse has been systemically under-reported among Asian girls due to deeply entrenched cultural taboos – obscuring the reality that there is a similarly rampant problem of minority girls being abused by members of their own community.
> 
> I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. I’m coming forward to publicly share my own story in the hope that I can encourage others to do the same and help tear down the wall of silence that perpetuates further abuse.
> 
> I grew up in a small community of a few hundred British-Pakistanis in Skipton, less than 60 miles from Rotherham. When I was 10 a neighbour started sexually abusing me. Paralysed by shame, I said nothing.
> 
> At 18 I was fortunate enough to receive an offer to study at Oxford University. I was enthralled with the exciting new world around me and tried desperately to fit in. I replaced my traditional shalwar kameez with jeans. I bared my shoulders and cut my hair. I socialised more than I studied and became president of the Oxford Union.
> 
> An internship at Goldman Sachs led to a job in private equity in London, and after a few years I moved to the US to get my MBA from Harvard Business School. But all the while, I knew the girls I had grown up with didn’t have the same opportunities – and that my abuser was probably still preying on other children.
> 
> It was only after a decade away from Skipton that I was finally able to garner the courage to return and testify against my abuser. When I first told my mother about the abuse I’d suffered, she was absolutely devastated. The root of her anger was clear: I was heaping unbound shame on to my family by trying to bring the perpetrator to justice. In trying to stop him from exploiting more children, I was ensuring my parents and my siblings would be ostracised. She begged me not to go to the police station.
> 
> If I’d still been living in Skipton, surrounded by a community who would either blame me for the abuse or label me a liar, I’m not sure I could have rejected her demands.
> 
> Once the police began the investigation another victim came forward. Sohail described how he too had been abused almost 20 years before I was. Due to our combined testimony, the perpetrator was jailed for eight years.
> 
> Within a few weeks another young woman in the community, emboldened by the conviction, told the police that a relative had raped her for several years. It had started before Sara was in her teens. We have supported her through the process of taking this to court.
> 
> *Although Sohail and I had removed a proven paedophile from the community and helped empower another woman to end her torture, we were not celebrated. On the contrary, we were shunned.*
> 
> The Rotherham report cites a home affairs select committee finding that cases of Asian men grooming Asian girls did not come to light in Rotherham because victims “are often alienated and ostracised by their own families and by the whole community, if they go public with allegations of abuse”.
> 
> This was our experience exactly – and the experience of everyone I’ve since spoken to. In each situation, victims and their families faced tremendous pressure to drop their cases.
> 
> During our investigation it became clear that for three decades many other women had suffered at the hands of our abuser, but they had refused to testify against him because of the indelible stigma it would bring. I learned that the parents of at least one of the victims had known their child had been abused but had done nothing. We also discovered that the larger community had long been aware of rumours of abuse by my neighbour but had chosen to ignore them – even when Sohail had attempted to come forward several years earlier.
> 
> *This refusal to condemn perpetrators persists even after their conviction. Soon after our case, another convicted sex offender was released back into our community and was accepted as if nothing had happened. It was clear that the same would happen with our abuser.*
> 
> Much has been made about the religious background of the offenders in the Rotherham report. But this problem isn’t about religion race: it’s about a culture where notions of shame result in the blaming of victims rather than perpetrators.
> 
> Although painful to read, the Rotherham report presents an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for leaders in the British-Pakistani community to stand up and speak out about the sexual and physical abuse in their midst. The Asian community isn’t unique in having evil-doers, and the overwhelming majority of its men and women are good people who care about protecting others.
> 
> I am and always will be proud of my Pakistani heritage, but I firmly believe community leaders must take responsibility for the fact that the taboos that prevent others from identifying perpetrators and supporting victims enable further abuse. And those taboos must be challenged.
> 
> The report also presents an opportunity to overhaul the public institutions that have failed in their responsibility to protect the defenceless – which includes everyone from the police to schools to social services.
> 
> On multiple occasions, beginning when she was 12, Sara went to her local GP and to walk-in clinics wearing her hijab to get the morning-after pill. She was never asked if she needed help. When she approached the police to share her story the CPS initially told her it would not pursue the case because there was too little evidence. It’s a testament to her resolve that she pushed back, demanding a chance to seek justice.
> 
> The system failed her, just as it has thousands of other children of all backgrounds.
> 
> We now have the chance to change that, and there are four immediate steps we should take to address this problem.
> 
> First, we need better training of social workers and police to effectively identify victims. The Rotherham report cited that one of the reasons for the widespread under-reporting of abuse among minority communities was the authorities’ focus on communicating with male leaders, who ignored the problem. Women and girls need to be included in these conversations, and government officials need to broaden the scope of their inquiries.
> 
> Second, we need mandatory reporting by people of authority when they signs of potential sexual abuse. One of the most damning parts of the Rotherham report was that schoolteachers were discouraged from reporting potential cases. For Sara, mandatory reporting by doctors serving young children could have saved her years of abuse.
> 
> Third, we need improved support for victims when they come forward. Sara’s case has been drawn out for far longer than expected, during which time she has faced pressure to withdraw her testimony. She has been passed from one counsellor to another, and struggled to get the help she needs to overcome her trauma. We need a judicial process that recognises the cost of delayed prosecutions for victims and better counselling services.
> 
> Fourth, we need a single person in each community who is accountable for ensuring these and other relevant policies are implemented. There are a lot of people with partial responsibility for this problem, but for this to be an effective, coordinated, comprehensive response, we need one individual who takes full responsibility for ensuring child sex exploitation is addressed and who can be held accountable for real change.
> 
> Some of these policies are already being implemented. But they are not being implemented everywhere, and they are not being implemented quickly enough.
> 
> The biggest risk of this terrible situation is that once the shock of this report dissipates, it will get swept under the rug, just like three previous reports in Rotherham. We cannot let that happen. We don’t need any further reports: we need system-wide change in the way we approach fighting sexual abuse against children of all backgrounds. This is not a problem in Rotherham or a problem in Oxford or a problem in Rochdale. This is a problem in the United Kingdom. And we need to tackle it together.
> 
> In the words of Edmund Burke, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing.” Let’s not be those people.
> 
> Some names have been changed to protect anonymity.
> 
> Ruzwana Bashir is co-founder and CEO of Peek.com, the one-stop shop to discover and book activities. She previously worked at Gilt Groupe, Blackstone and Goldman Sachs. She has an MBA from Harvard Business School where she was a Fulbright scholar, and a BA from Oxford where she was president of the Oxford Union.


----------



## CougarKing

The British show they are willing to go the distance to stop terrorism.

Military.com



> *UK: Passports Could Be Seized in New Terror Laws*
> 
> Associated Press | Sep 01, 2014 | by Sylvia Hui
> LONDON -- Prime Minister David Cameron on Monday proposed new laws that would give police the power to seize the passports of Britons suspected of having traveled abroad to fight with terrorist groups.
> 
> *Speaking to Parliament, Cameron said his government is also working on plans to block such suspected British jihadi fighters from re-entering the U.K. The power to monitor such suspects who are already in Britain would also be strengthened.
> 
> The plans to widen Britain's anti-terror laws, which are likely to be approved by parliament, are aimed at preventing attacks by Islamist militants returning from terror training in trouble spots in the Middle East.*
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Hope we grow some balls like that too.


----------



## ModlrMike

Any legislation we tried to enact on that front would quickly be the subject of a Supreme Court challenge.


----------



## GAP

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Any legislation we tried to enact on that front would quickly be the subject of a Supreme Court challenge.



That's ok. Parliament creates the laws, the courts interpret them in relation to the charter. So, dot all the i's and cross all the t's, fill in all the squares to limit the misinterpretation of the law..... :2c:


----------



## OldSolduer

GAP said:
			
		

> That's ok. Parliament creates the laws, the courts interpret them in relation to the charter. So, dot all the i's and cross all the t's, fill in all the squares to limit the misinterpretation of the law..... :2c:



Then when the terrorists lawyers and Supreme Court strike the law down, invoke :


NOT WITH STANDING CLAUSE - in other words SCOC - we don't give a crap what your interpretation is, we're doing it our way

FJAG needs to weigh in on this.


----------



## GAP

I suspect that some sort of legislation will come about, either through changing existing laws or creating new ones, but it will be a weak sister effort, just enough to get past the 2015 election. 

Playing to the masses man, playing to the masses.....


----------



## CougarKing

Another nut who should be stripped of her UK passport...

Source: Agence-France Presse



> *British 'jihadist' mum threatens to behead Christians: reports*
> 
> London (AFP) - A middle-aged British mother-of-two and former rock band member has joined jihadists in Syria and wants to behead Christians with a "blunt knife", British media reported.
> 
> The reports identified the woman as *Sally Jones, 45, from Kent in southeast England, and said she now goes by the name Sakinah Hussain, or Umm Hussain al-Britani.*
> 
> Security experts estimate that hundreds of Britons have gone to the Middle East to join the Islamic State (IS) militant group, the most brutal to emerge out of Syria's bloody civil war and the most successful.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## George Wallace

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Another nut who should be stripped of her UK passport...
> 
> Source: Agence-France Presse



If the new laws pass....she could be.


----------



## CougarKing

Just a look at one case among many of failed integration across Europe:

Business Insider via Yahoo News



> *Why So Many Jihadists Come From Belgium*
> Business Insider
> By Ben Winsor – 1 hour 21 minutes ago
> 
> AP / Thierry Charlier
> A group wearing T-shirts reading "Stop Islamization" protest during a demonstration in Brussels on Sept. 11, 2007, regarding what some believe as the Islamization of Europe.
> As more than a thousand Westerners have joined the conflict in Iraq and Syria, the most per-capita have come from Belgium,  according to  an analysis by Business Insider .
> 
> Between  250  and  400  jihadists in the area are thought to have come from the small European nation, which has a population of 11 million.
> 
> Although the trend may seem surprising from a highly developed state known for waffles and EU bureaucracy, a closer look at Belgium's fractured society shows this may have been a long time coming.
> 
> Failed Integration
> 
> *Muslim immigrants are not well integrated into Belgian society d espite decades of immigration there from countries like Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, and Algeria.
> 
> While Muslim Belgians make up only 4% to 6% of the country’s population, some politicians say their very presence threatens the Belgian way of life.*
> 
> (...EDITED)
> 
> In 2013, the Minister for Integration and current leader of the Flemish government, Geert Bourgeois, spoke about a report showing that less than a third of young Muslims felt accepted by Flemish society.
> 
> "That so many young people are discriminated against or feel rejected means we have a lot of work to do as a society," he said, *" but another way of looking at it could be that we think young Muslims do not belong to because they do not want to belong."*
> 
> With a population so divided, Belgian Muslims tend to live in close-knit communities with seperate social circles. Without integration, radical groups can take root.
> 
> Belgium is home to the banned extremist Salafist group, Sharia4Belgium, which remains active underground. The group supports ISIS and is accused  of recruiting fighters for the war in Syria.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## Edward Campbell

> Muslim immigrants are not well integrated into Belgian society d espite decades of immigration there from countries like Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, and Algeria.
> 
> While Muslim Belgians make up only 4% to 6% of the country’s population, some politicians say their very presence threatens the Belgian way of life.




Some, too many, Muslims have difficulty _integrating_ into any Western society. Most of the ones I know do not have that problem, but they came here for a change, they wanted something that Iraq, Syria, Egypt and so on did not and could not offer: personal liberty. Islam 'offers' a complete socio-economic and political "solution" but many people do not want that.

          (Anecdote: My friend _Sabah_ (BEng in Iraq, MEng in UK, PhD in Canada) is a wholly secular man, he goes to Mosque a few times a year; he raised his daughters to be 'free thinking,' independent Canadians.
          When a junior engineer, Reema, joined our group she was still a "good" Muslim. Sabah told her, quietly, privately, that there is nothing in the Qur'an that requires her to wear a veil. "Modesty," he told me he explained
          to her, "is a state of conduct, not dress." Reema, gradually, became less visibly "Muslim" and, it seemed to me, happier. When she married she told me that she explained to her new husband that she was still a good,
          believing Muslim but she refused to cater to foreign, 19th century social customs in the 21st century Canada. At my retirement party she thanked me for being part of a "team" that helped her "grow." I know she was
          talking mostly about Sabah's influence. Both Sabah and Reema are fully 'integrated' Canadians who happen to be Muslims.)

Too many Muslims, especially refugees, are neither socially nor culturally 'ready' to _integrate_ into Western society. (That is just one of the reasons our refugee programme is broken.)


----------



## cryco

This problem has always existed with other immigrants as well, it's just very visible with Muslims.
When my parents immigrated to Canada in the late 60s, they stuck with the Greek community and had almost no dealings with the outside world. My dad worked in restaurants so he did deal with anglophones and francophones, but do you know we had 1 family in our outer circle that was not Greek? jJust one!  We lived surrounded by Greeks for the first 20 years of my life. We resisted integration for 2 decades at least.
My circle was exclusively Greek friends except for one Japanese guy that we considered an honorary Greek. Only when I was in university did i start to hang out with non-greeks and that was only for projects and papers. 
Until i was 26ish, I would say I was Greek Canadian, not Canadian, and would love to move to Greece and had started planning for it. 
Now (and for the last 10 years at least) I proudly say I'm Canadian and would fight to defend the greatest nation in the world. I never left, and will probably never leave here. I'm married to a francophone and my kids speak English and french, with just a bit of Greek thrown in. One of the most beautiful things that happened to me was when my son was learning the Canadian anthem in pre-k and asked me to sing with him. hell I cried back in 2006 when the oilers where playing in the playoffs and the crowd took over the anthem. I was standing and signing with pride.
So imagine, if a white christian group has such a reluctance to integrate imagine the visible muslim's reluctance to integrate.
What else can the gov't do?


----------



## GAP

The enclaves of like minded people make it unnecessary to make a large effort to integrate....this has gone on down through history....Greeks, Irish, et al. 

Some of what the difference is what they look like....the Chinese looked different thus were left alone in their own communites and discriminated against, as were most Asians....now the influx is from African/brown nations and the same thing is happening. In addition, the conflicts these people are running away from are not so easy to avoid anymore as the communications through the internet bring it here in a flash.

In short, nothing has changed.


----------



## ModlrMike

The problem lies not in the pot, but rather in the melting. Or lack thereof.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There IS a problem with the _pot_, too, I _think_.

We say we are a bilingual/multicultural country but I'm not sure how true that is, outside of few 'pockets.' Ask a _Francophone_ how much "at home" they feel in, say, Richmond BC or, say, Richmond Hill, ON (p. 12 on the link).

We do have some multicultural places, Richmond BC, for example, is "home" for about equal numbers of English and Chinese speakers (Cantonese and Mandarin, mainly) and for folks of Indian ethnicity, but it doesn't look too "friendly" for Arabic speakers ... but then neither does Richmond Hill, ON.

I think we have one very large _melting pot_: Toronto, and one medium sized one: Greater Vancouver. My reading of the data is that Montreal is actually getting less and less "multicultural" while Calgary, Winnipeg and so on are growing in "multicultural" status but are still overwhelmingly English while smaller cities in Quebec are resolutely French.


----------



## a_majoor

Expanding a bit on the points being made here, many people are not assimilating. Now we could follow the Saudi solution and encourage them to go abroad, cancel their passports and wait for them to catch a Hellfire or JADAM courtesy of the USAF (which is ruthless enough to actually work), but I suspect that won't go over very well here. OTOH, based on the social media chatter, I think these people "self identify" fairly easily. Identification, careful watching and being swift to move in the first sign of activity beyond posting noxious messages on FaceBook should be acceptable solutions.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/387188/foreign-legion-losers-jonah-goldberg



> *A Foreign Legion for Losers *
> Many of the Westerners flocking to the Islamic State are middle-class misfits for whom jihad is a radical pose.
> By Jonah Goldberg
> 
> On the Internet, you’re never really alone. Name any fad, any cause, any hobby or passion — Shaker furniture? Dungeons and Dragons, Bolivian tree frogs? — and you’re only a few clicks away from someone who shares your obsession.
> 
> That’s great. It’s also horrible. Because while there’s no harm in tree-frog fans sharing pictures and stories that inspire others to fly to the Andes to take pictures of exotic creatures, the Internet also lets evil people share stories and pictures that inspire others to cut off the heads of various infidels and apostates.
> 
> Though I’m perfectly comfortable with YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, and similar platforms doing what they can to undermine the PR campaigns of fanatical murderers, my point here isn’t necessarily that such things should be banned or censored (even if that were technologically feasible). I weary of reflexive responses to barbarism that involve curtailing the freedoms of Americans in order to avoid offending savages.
> 
> Rather, my point is that to a considerable extent, the Islamic State — and groups like it — is a modern Foreign Legion for losers. When discussing people who openly boast of rape, murder, and torture, “loser” is hardly too harsh. But invective is not my intent when I call them losers. These men — and a few women, too — are losers in a more significant sense. They are losers at Western civilization.
> Recently the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) posted transcripts from Facebook and Twitter conversations among various French and British supporters of the Islamic State. They enthusiastically chatted about the exciting news that you can buy slave women in areas controlled by the Islamic State. The terrorist group reportedly captured an unknown number of women from the ethnic minority called Yazidis. They aren’t Muslims, so they can be used as chattel.
> 
> The men in the discussions asked all sorts of questions about the rules for sexually abusing (i.e., raping) the women. One British Muslim asked, “I have 3,500 dollars to spare, I am going to buy ten, who wants one?” A French man joked that 180 dollars must be the “price for the ugly ones.” There were plenty of “LOLs” in the thread. Because, you know, collecting the female survivors of mass murder and raping them is just so Laugh-Out-Loud funny to cretins who can bed women only at sword-point.
> 
> Many of the Westerners flocking to Syria and Iraq for “jihad tourism” don’t have any of the usual excuses one hears for terrorism. Just like the 9/11 hijackers, they are often middle-class, educated, and technologically adept.
> 
> What they are not is assimilated. They may have passports identifying them as American, French, or British, but they are not American, French, or British in their hearts. These labels do not give them the meaning and mission in life they crave. And Western democratic capitalism bores them. Often the children of immigrants, they are literally misfits; they don’t fit in with their parents’ native culture, but they also haven’t connected to the society in which they now live.
> 
> And that is nothing new. The French intellectual Olivier Roy observed over a decade ago that many of the violent Islamists in Europe were in fact “born-again Muslims” who adopted Islam not so much as a sincere religious conversion but as a radical pose against the West. In previous generations, they might have joined Marxist terror groups.
> 
> In other words, the ideology of radical Islamists is a convenient uniform in their crusade for power, sex, vengeance, excitement, whatever. The Telegraph’s Tim Stanley notes that one poll in France finds that more people in France, compared with residents of the Gaza Strip, support the Islamic State.
> 
> NBC News reports that since the release of the video showing the beheading of American journalist James Foley, some 28,000 pro–Islamic State Twitter accounts were created.
> 
> There have always been isolated losers. But that isolation often inspired its own remedy. People want to belong to a community. That desire fuels assimilation and civilization. The horrifying challenge of today is that thanks to the digital age and an ideology and a culture that often sees assimilation as incompatible with “multiculturalism,” the losers no longer have to stop being losers to cure their sense of isolation. They can join a huge virtual rape gang on the Web and have their evil desires confirmed and celebrated. And some of them, weary of puncturing their masturbatory reveries by pecking out LOL on a keyboard, have the option of hopping on a plane.
> 
> — Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online and a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. You can write to him by e-mail at goldbergcolumn@gmail.com or via Twitter @JonahNRO. © 2014 Tribune Content Agency, LLC



Now another potential solution exists based on the highlighted line, but it would require some heavy duty work and getting hands quite dirty to change the "attitudes, perceptions and behaviours" of these people and neutralizing the negative influences. Do we have the willpower and resources for that project?


----------



## The Bread Guy

*"Ottawa revoking passports of Canadians who join extremist groups: Alexander"*


> Canadians who travel overseas to join extremist groups can expect to have their passports revoked, the government is warning.
> 
> Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander said Saturday that Ottawa has begun revoking travel documents for those who travel to places such as Iraq and Syria to fight with the Islamic State and other militants groups.
> 
> “If we have evidence – and I mean substantive, incontrovertible evidence – that someone has left Canada with the intention of committing what would be an indictable offence here, including terrorism, then we can revoke, suspend or invalidate their passport,” Alexander told CTV News.
> 
> The minister said the Islamic State is not just a problem in the Middle East, but a global threat.
> 
> “Given the barbaric nature of the groups operating now in Syria and Iraq, and their unscrupulous tactics, we need this kind of measure to prevent people from going down this misguided path, and to deter young people from even thinking about it,” he said.
> 
> The measures are “serious, strong legal safeguards,” that Alexander said will “only ever going to apply, we think, to a small group of people.”
> 
> Alexander said the power to revoke travel documents was already established under the Canadian Passport Order, and that it had been used in the past. He said “multiple people” have already had their passports revoked in light of recent situations, but declined provide specific numbers ....


----------



## Edward Campbell

And, according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, the RCMP (and, presumably, other LE agencies in other countries) is using the full range of laws and regulations to "bust" would-be terrorists:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/rcmp-using-new-measures-to-stop-high-risk-travellers/article20712700/#dashboard/follows/


> RCMP using new measures to stop ‘high-risk travellers’
> 
> COLIN FREEZE AND CARRIE TAIT
> The Globe and Mail
> 
> Last updated Saturday, Sep. 20 2014
> 
> Ali Abubaker and Naomi Mahdere were talented teenagers. He was a hip-hop poet, riffing about inequality and injustice; she was a polished singer, mimicking pop stars such as Beyonce. In 2011, Ms. Mahdere won a talent competition put on by Calgary’s Afrikadey Arts & Culture Society. Mr. Abubaker placed second.
> 
> Ms. Madhere, now 19, wanted to study biochemistry and become a doctor. Mr. Abubaker, now 22, was studying civil engineering at Mount Royal University.
> 
> At some point, a romantic relationship between the two blossomed. Ms. Mahdere, an Eritrean-Christian by heritage, converted to Islam. Those who knew Mr. Abubaker, whose parents hailed from Eritrea and the Philippines, were alarmed by his religious stridency, which began surfacing in his poetry.
> 
> Ms. Mahdere’s mother became so concerned about Mr. Abubaker’s views on Islam that she called the RCMP’s national security team last year. She told investigators she believed her daughter and her boyfriend were going to Syria to fight in the war. The couple applied for new passports in October, 2013, wanting the paperwork rushed. In November, they presented passport officials with one-way tickets to London, England.
> 
> That’s when the police stepped in. Working with Passport Canada officials, they picked up Mr. Abubaker, Ms. Mahdere and their friend Hamza Omer, on charges of passport fraud, keeping them grounded in Canada and off a flight to London. All three pleaded guilty. Their combined fines will likely total around $3,000 – a small sum considering the Crown prosecutor argued their actions could have brought the integrity of the entire Canadian passport system into disrepute.
> 
> The couple – who couldn’t be reached through lawyers, listed addresses or family members – have paid their dues, and are still together. But the case remains important: not just because of what the Mounties allege they could prove, but because of what they couldn’t.
> 
> Without the ability to amass the proof beyond doubt they need to lay more serious charges, officials are increasingly leaning on other measures and investigative partners for help to disrupt “high-risk travellers” from getting on planes.
> 
> The threat of homegrown terrorism isn’t new, but the manner in which the RCMP zeroed in on this couple represents a fresh gambit in the fight to identify and stop prospective terrorist recruits before they leave Canada. These techniques, which have attracted the ire of civil liberties advocates, are being deployed amid a growing sense of urgency: Officials are warning that more than 100 Canadians are suspected of involvement in terrorism activities around the world.
> 
> *“Into that fanaticism”*
> 
> Tunde Dawodu, who works at building a sense of pan-African identity among creative Calgary youth through the annual Afrikadey weeklong festival, met Mr. Abubaker around 2010. And he has known Ms. Mahdere since she was a little girl. Mr. Abubaker, he said, was a talented artist, but his poems increasingly included religious terms like Allahu Akbar – Arabic for God is great.
> 
> Mr. Dawodu worried about the teenager and tried to talk to him about it. “He was just too much into that fanaticism,” Mr. Dawodu said in an interview in Afrikadey’s basement office in Calgary.
> 
> Mr. Abubaker, in the program guide for the 2011 festival, described his poetry with a softer spin. “Speaking and writing about the injustice, that is what inspires me,” Mr. Abubaker said.
> 
> Ms. Mahdere described the “rush” she felt when singing in front of an audience. “You go on stage and at first you are nervous, but then you start to feel comfortable and you can really feed off the energy the crowd is giving you,” she said in her bio.
> 
> In the accompanying photo, Ms. Mahdere is wearing a denim vest, short skirt and fringed boots. Her Facebook profile photo, prior to being removed this week, featured a woman in black niqab with only her eyes visible.
> 
> The pair is now “married under Islamic sharia,” according to court documents.
> 
> Mr. Dawodu tells a story that shows how Ms. Mahdere’s religious transformation coincides with her romantic relationship.
> 
> Ms. Mahdere phoned him out of the blue last year with an odd request given she had once wanted to tour the world as a pop singer. She wanted her old pictures deleted from the Afrikadey’s website. “I don’t want my body to be exposed,” he recalls her saying.
> 
> In the midst of this conversation, an angry man grabbed the phone. “Listen, this is Naomi’s husband,” the man said, according to Mr. Dawodu. He, too, demanded the photos be removed.
> 
> “He was threatening me with violence,” Mr. Dawodu said. The husband never identified himself, but Mr. Dawodu recognized the voice as Mr. Abubaker’s.
> 
> Undermining “the integrity of the Canadian passport system”
> 
> The passport fraud case against Mr. Abubaker and Ms. Mahdere began with a phone call to the RCMP’s integrated national security team on Oct. 28, 2013. It was her mother.
> 
> “Ms. Mahdere’s parents were concerned that Mr. Abubaker and Ms. Mahdere planned to go to Syria to fight in the war,” prosecutor Steven Johnston told the court.
> 
> The mother’s theory was based on her concerns about “Mr. Abubaker’s perceived views on Islam.” She noticed her daughter’s debit card had been used twice on the same day at Passport Canada.
> 
> RCMP co-ordinated with Passport Canada. They found that Mr. Abubaker, Ms. Mahdere and their friend Mr. Omer all relied on the same guarantor as they sought to rush their passport applications. The RCMP spoke with the guarantor and determined he did not meet the requirements. He knew neither Ms. Mahdere nor Mr. Omer and had been out of contact with Mr. Abubaker, who pushed him to sign all three applications.
> 
> This was enough for police to charge the three with passport fraud. “What Mr. Abubaker and his cohorts did undermines the integrity of the Canadian passport system,” Mr. Johnston, the prosecutor, told the court. Such illegal acts could tarnish Canada’s reputation to the point that all citizens would “end up on visas to travel to the United States.”
> 
> Defence lawyers said the three had no intention of going to the Middle East. Instead, they had planned to attend an Islamic conference in London.
> 
> Ms. Mahdere addressed the court during her hearing, disputing any notion that she and her husband ever harboured “radical views.”
> 
> “We follow mainstream Islam, we don’t follow any fringe group or any extremes,” she said.
> 
> *“Disrupting” suspects*
> 
> Police in Canada often talk of “disrupting” potential terrorism suspects, language that makes civil libertarians nervous. Critics of the RCMP want police to proceed in open courts. They point out Mounties were faulted by separate judicial inquiries, in the 1980s and early 2000s, for unlawful conduct in their fight against terrorism.
> 
> “You don’t want some committee in some hidden office in Ottawa making these kinds of decisions that would interfere with someone’s right to liberty,” said Paul Cavalluzzo, a lawyer who acted as commission counsel during the 2004 Maher Arar inquiry.
> 
> But the Conservative government is promising Canadians that authorities will get better at preventing terrorism – and the term “high-risk travellers” (HRT) has gained currency, applied to cases in which officials are long on fears but short on evidence. A senior Mountie chairs Canada’s HRT “case management committee,” where security officials meet every few weeks to discuss who they need to keep off outbound planes.
> 
> Superintendent Wade Oldford, the RCMP’s top counterterrorism detective, says the committee was “born out of necessity,” especially after “the number of individuals brought to our attention leaving the country started to increase significantly as the events in Syria started to unfold.”
> 
> The police gold standard for any national-security investigation remains arresting, charging and prosecuting suspects in open court on Anti-Terrorist Act offences. But when they can’t reach that standard, they turn to other means. Supt. Oldford, in an interview, gave a hypothetical example.
> 
> “If we knew there was an individual discussing planning to leave Canada for Syria and we didn’t have enough information to lay a charge,” he said, “then is there something from a Passport Canada perspective they could do under their own legislation?”




Good for them ... when you cannot win "gold standard" a silver or bronze is still better than sitting on the sidelines and wringing our collective hands.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Now there's reports that ISIS is calling for their loser fan base in western countries to conduct strikes.  Canada is mentioned.



> ISIS audio urges attacks on 'unbelievers' in Canada
> 
> Coalition members among those targeted in latest ISIS propaganda speech
> CBC NewsPosted: Sep 21, 2014 9:48 PM ET|Last Updated: Sep 22, 2014 6:41 AM ET
> 
> In an audio recording distributed widely on social media Sunday, Islamic extremist group ISIS urged attacks on civilians in member countries of the U.S.-led coalition opposed to their violent spread through areas of Syria and Iraq.
> 
> In the nearly 42-minute long meandering propaganda speech uploaded to Twitter, ISIS spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani encourages Muslims to kill “disbelievers” in countries, including Canada, currently supporting American and French-backed military action against the group in Iraq “in any manner.”
> 
> 
> "If you can kill a disbelieving American or European — especially the spiteful and filthy French — or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State … kill him in any manner or way however it may be,” said Adnani.
> 
> In a statement released Sunday evening, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's spokesman condemned the recording and said Canada will continue to support efforts to defeat ISIS.
> 
> "ISIS represents a threat not just to stability in the Middle East, but to global security," said Jason MacDonald.
> 
> "We will continue to work with allies to push back against this threat. Like our allies we will not be cowed by threats while innocent children, women, men and religious minorities live in fear of these terrorists."
> 
> Threats made in the audio recording mirror those ISIS has made in other propaganda releases, including during the grisly beheading videos of two American journalists, James Foley and Stephen Sotloff, and British aid worker David Haines.
> 
> The United States is building an international coalition to combat the radical Sunni Muslim group, which has seized swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria and proclaimed a caliphate in the heart of the Middle East.
> 
> U.S. and French warplanes struck Islamic State targets in Iraq and on Sunday the United States said other countries had indicated a willingness to join it if it goes ahead with air strikes against the group in Syria too.
> 
> Adnani blamed Western allies for instigating a war against the terrorist group, and said the ongoing air incursions against ISIS positions in Iraq will be “the final campaign of the crusaders.”
> 
> Address mocks Western leaders
> 
> Unlike other terrorist organizations such as al-Qaeda, ISIS has established a widespread presence on social networks, using highly produced videos and audio recordings in an effort to recruit new fighters from abroad and intimidate those opposed to their murderous agenda.
> 
> In his statement, Adnani mocked Western leaders over their deepening military engagement in the region and said U.S. President Barack Obama was repeating the mistakes of his predecessor, George W. Bush.
> 
> "If you fight it (Islamic State), it becomes stronger and tougher. If you leave it alone, it grows and expands. If Obama has promised you with defeating the Islamic State, then Bush has also lied before him," Adnani said, according to the transcript.
> 
> Obama, who has spent much of his tenure extracting the United States from Iraq after its costly 2003 invasion and occupation, is sensitive to charges that he is being drawn into another long campaign that risks U.S. soldiers' lives.
> 
> While Obama has ruled out a combat mission, military officials say the reality of a protracted campaign in Iraq and possibly Syria may ultimately require greater use of U.S. troops, including tactical air strike spotters or front-line advisers embedded with Iraqi forces.
> With files from Reuters
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-audio-urges-attacks-on-unbelievers-in-canada-1.2773636


----------



## Halifax Tar

Makes me think of the SgtMaj from When We Were Soldiers as the NVA is about to over run the LZ 

"Prepare to defend yourselves" 

While I doubt the local "radicals"  are brave enough to carry anything out, it would be an extreme wake up call to our society if they did; and put the whole fantasy of multiculturalism in serious debate.


----------



## Rifleman62

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/13/trudeau-opposes-revoking-canadian-passports-of-would-be-terrorists
*
Trudeau opposes revoking Canadian passports of would-be terrorists*

By Jessica Hume, National Bureau, September 13, 2014 

TORONTO - Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau confused holding a passport with citizenship - but doesn't think the government should be able to take away either from Canadians suspected of being involved in terrorism.

The issue of homegrown terrorists has been in the spotlight since the onslaught of terror group Islamic State (ISIS), which claims to have established a caliphate - or Islamic state - in parts of Syria and Iraq and which has had alarming success in recruiting Western youth to fight for its cause.

Speaking with reporters Saturday at the Liberal Party of Ontario's annual general meeting in Markham, Trudeau said he believes the Canadian justice system is currently well enough equipped to handle homegrown terrorism.

Legislation passed in June allows the federal government to strip citizenship from dual citizens who are convicted of terrorism at home or abroad.

Trudeau and his Liberals opposed the legislation. He has often expressed his concern the bill creates a "two-tiered" system of citizenship.

Asked for his thoughts on revoking or denying passports to would-be terrorists, Trudeau appeared to conflate citizenship with having a passport, but ultimately said he believes the Criminal Code is the best tool to fight terrorism.

"I think that a lot of Canadians, including very conservative Canadians, should be worried about the state willing to, and taking the power to, arbitrarily remove citizenship from people," he said. "That's a slippery slope that I don't think we want to go on."

The government for many years has had the authority to deny or revoke the passports of citizens who "assist in committing an indictable offence in Canada or a similar offence abroad," among other reasons.

British Columbia immigration lawyer Richard Kurland says that's what any "practically minded head of government" should do.

"You can guard the world against 'bad Canadians' by ensuring they can't leave our borders," he said.


----------



## The_Falcon

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Makes me think of the SgtMaj from When We Were Soldiers as the NVA is about to over run the LZ
> 
> "Prepare to defend yourselves"
> 
> While I doubt the local "radicals"  are brave enough to carry anything out, it would be an extreme wake up call to our society if they did; and put the whole fantasy of multiculturalism in serious debate.



That's a good way of putting it.  One of the thoughts that came to mind when I read the news of this video, calling for these fanatics, to attack random people in their own countries, is if it were to happen, would that be enough ammo to loosen the iron fist the various CFO's have regarding CCW permits.


----------



## George Wallace

Why sure!  Let's just add to the problem!

Wake up people.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Why has Canada only taken in 200 Syrian refugees?
> 
> The Toronto Star
> By: Peter Goodspeed Atkinson Fellow, Published on Fri Sep 19 2014
> 
> *Canada has resettled 200 Syrian refugees while Sweden, which has only a quarter of Canada’s population, has taken in more than 30,000.
> *
> 
> Martin Mark boils with frustration at the inertia he says has paralyzed Canada’s refugee system during Syria’s civil war.
> “There is delay, delay, delay,” says the executive director of the Catholic Office of Refugees in the Archdiocese of Toronto (ORAT). “It is spoiling our international reputation.
> 
> “If I go to a church and tell them, ‘Please do the fundraising and prepare and the refugees will come,’ I have a good chance of getting a good response. But if I finish my speech by saying it will happen three years from today, they are going to say, ‘Get out, man. Are you serious?’
> 
> “Resettlement is done worldwide now,” Mark continues. “It’s not just the U.S. and Canada. If you see other countries, where the processing time is less than one year, you have to wonder. The U.K. Germany, Sweden, Norway . . . for God’s sake, I mean the maximum there is one year. The average is four to six months.
> “So how come we became the worst ever resettlement processing country?”
> 
> Once a private sponsorhip — usually involving a church group — is approved, it can take two to five years to get a refugee to Canada, depending on the country where he or she is living.
> 
> Canada’s average processing time for privately sponsored refugee applications in Lebanon is two years. In Pakistan it is 5.4 years, in Egypt, 3.5 years and in South Africa, 4.7 years.
> 
> In the three and a half years war has raged in Syria, displacing 10 million people, Canada has struggled to resettle fewer than 200 Syrian refugees overseas and is still processing asylum applications from another 1,300 who made their way to Canada on their own.
> 
> In the same period, Germany resettled 6,000, welcomed another 11,800 Syrian asylum seekers and promised to offer protection — in the form of renewable, two-year residence visas — to another 20,000 of Syria’s most vulnerable victims trapped in the Middle East.
> 
> Sweden, a country with only about a quarter of Canada’s population, has given permanent resident status to more than 30,000 Syrians.
> 
> Two months after Canada announced, in July 2013, that it would accept 200 government-sponsored Syrian refugees by the end of this year, the Swedish government said all Syrians who made it to Sweden and passed normal security checks would be given permanent residence and allowed to bring their immediate family members to live with them.
> 
> While Canadian officials were still trying to process their first government-sponsored refugee, more than 5,000 Syrians arrived in Sweden in the first three months of Stockholm’s new policy.
> 
> Canada struggles to meet this year’s target of 200 government-sponsored refugees, while Sweden welcomes 600 Syrian refugees each week.
> “Canada is just failing to respond,” says Mark. “It is very sad.”
> 
> The delays point to a refugee system riven by politics and struggling against bureaucratic lethargy.
> 
> Canada already has a backlog of 21,000 sponsored-refugee applications. Churches and community associations that sponsor refugees have, since 2011, been limited in the number of new applications they can submit each year, in order to give the government time to clear the backlogs.
> 
> It seems delays are built into the system that processes applications.
> 
> In 2012, Citizenship and Immigration Canada created a new Centralized Processing Office in Winnipeg to rapidly vet private sponsorship applications. The goal was to complete the initial application review in 30 days.
> 
> An operational evaluation of the new office at the end of its first year, obtained under the Access to Information Act, concludes: “The Centralized Processing Office . . . is currently experiencing critical processing and communications backlogs at a time when application volumes are expected to increase significantly.”
> Instead of the benchmark 30-day processing time, “sponsors are not receiving a case decision for almost one year,” says the departmental assessment, dated November 2013.
> 
> 
> “At current staffing and productivity levels, it is estimated that it will take (the office) over two years to clear the existing inventory of cases, in addition to almost two and a half years to process projected 2014 application submissions,” the report predicts.
> 
> There is a risk the new backlog, on top of existing waits in visa offices overseas, could jeopardize Canada’s privately sponsored refugee targets, the study concluded.
> 
> *'Even the bureaucrats in Ottawa are unhappy'*
> 
> “The Winnipeg office became a disaster,” says Mark. “And it’s not just the sponsors who are unhappy — even the bureaucrats in Ottawa are unhappy.
> 
> “Until 2011 we had a lot of Immigration Canada offices processing our cases and we had an excellent relationship with the people working there. They loved the program, they helped us and they would call us if there was anything they needed. But suddenly Ottawa decided, ‘No, this is not good. Let’s not communicate with the sponsors.’
> 
> “We have thousands of cases and we have had several where, because of the delays in Immigration Canada’s processing, refugees that were hoping to come to Canada have been selected by Australia or the United Kingdom or the United States, and they are processed and have already left before the Canadian approval comes through.”
> 
> In other instances, files have sat in Winnipeg for months before being suddenly returned with a note complaining of an inconsistency in the spelling of a foreign name, a missing address or email or a garbled telephone number, Mark says.
> 
> “They find a reason to refuse to process and after one year or one and a half years you are still at Step One. It is really upsetting for the relatives, for the churches, for the refugees and for the visa offices.”
> 
> Two-thirds of Canada’s privately sponsored refugees — there were 6,623 of them in 2013 — come to the country through groups like Mark’s. There are 85 “sponsorship agreement holders,” mostly churches and some ethnic organizations, that can submit sponsorship applications for their own and other groups.
> Sponsors agree to provide emotional and financial support to refugees, including housing, clothing and food, for at least a year. It costs sponsors $12,600 a year to support a single refugee and around $26,000 for a family of four.
> 
> A recent survey of Canada’s faith-based refugee sponsorship groups by Citizens for Public Justice, an Ottawa-based Christian public policy organization, found that all church-connected sponsorship groups are concerned “about the long waiting period and processing time required after a sponsorship application is submitted.”
> 
> And 92 per cent of the church refugee groups complained about the government’s lack of consultation with them.
> 
> A number of the groups indicated they are frustrated not with civil servants but with the immigration minister’s office, the report said.
> 
> This year, it took the government nearly nine months to disclose its annual quotas to private refugee sponsors, a delay that virtually paralyzed them.
> 
> Normally, the quotas are announced well ahead of time so private sponsors know how many spots they have to fill and how they will be split among Canadian visa posts around the world. That gives them time to trade applications with each other to make sure that all the refugee allocations are filled up each year. This year, however, the sponsorship agreement holders didn’t get their 2014 quotas until late August. No public explanation was given.
> 
> “This year, the shift was moving from a sort of balanced global approach towards Syria,” Immigration Minister Chris Alexander told the Star. “And as the Syrian crisis and the UN appeals have come forward, we’ve tried to shift our planning in response.”
> 
> Alexander has hinted at plans to launch a large-scale operation to assist Syrian refugees, but Canada has yet to respond to an eight-month-old UNHCR request to have resettlement countries rescue 100,000 Syrians over the next two years.
> 
> “Generally, when the UNHCR puts out an appeal, Canada looks at the number and commits to about 10 per cent,” Brian Dyck, chairman of the Sponsorship Agreement Holders Association of Canada and refugee program co-ordinator for Manitoba’s Mennonite Central Committee, wrote recently. “To date, the Canadian government has said they will take part but has not set a number. For Canada to resettle 10,000 Syrians in the next two years could be a huge undertaking, however, with proper planning and support it can be done.”
> 
> If private refugee sponsors are going to be asked to pick up a large portion of the Syrian refugees, they don’t want it to be at the expense of their existing resettlement programs.
> 
> *'The Syrian situation really needs our attention'*
> 
> “Sponsoring groups have focused on resettlement of other refugees around the world, and we would not want to take away from that,” Dyck wrote in a blog posted on the Mennonite Central Committee’s website. “However, the Syrian situation really needs our attention. We need groups to add Syria to their list of places that we sponsor from. That is beginning to happen, but the take-up is slow.”
> 
> “I can’t tell you the amount of anxiety and stress that Syrians are going through,” says Faisal Alazem, spokesman for the Syrian Canadian Council. “Many members of the Syrian Canadian community are concerned that there is no priority processing or family reunification programs in place to assist their families.”
> In 2007, as the United States struggled to develop a military exit strategy in Iraq amid targeted attacks on the country’s Christians, Canada said it would fast-track family-class visa applications for Iraqis with close family in Canada.
> 
> In 2010, following a major earthquake in Haiti, Canada announced a special Haitian family reunification program that fast-tracked 2,200 family-class sponsorships involving more than 3,300 people.
> 
> Within 24 hours of Typhoon Haiyan hitting the Philippines in 2013, the government promised to fast-track visa applications from Filipinos “significantly and personally affected” by the catastrophe and said Filipinos already in Canada who wanted to remain would be assessed in a “compassionate and flexible manner.”
> By April 2014, 1,097 Filipinos were allowed to enter Canada; 245 of them were given temporary residence permits and 852 were granted permanent residence.
> No similar programs have been introduced for Syrians.
> 
> “There is no political will to be either fast or flexible,” says Naomi Alboim, chair of Queen’s University’s Policy Forum and a former deputy-minister of citizenship in Ontario. “There is nothing to prevent them from having a huge (resettlement) response. There would not need to be any major legislative or policy reform if they wanted to respond quickly to major international situations.
> 
> “They could increase their quotas tomorrow,” she insists. “There is nothing to prevent them from doing that except political will and money.”



More on LINK.

Sadly, I am now looking at this as "importing the poisonous barbarianism from that Region into our society" by bringing in unscreened individuals who most likely will not adopt our culture and its freedoms.  People who potentially will turn on us.  People who may not believe in our freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and equality of the sexes.  Sadly, I believe the Church organizations and bureaucrats are all wrong.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/13/trudeau-opposes-revoking-canadian-passports-of-would-be-terrorists
> *
> Trudeau opposes revoking Canadian passports of would-be terrorists*



Seriously this should surprise no one, he learned this bit of crap at the family dinner table >> like father, like son. IIRC, that middle fingering, insolent pirouetting SFB father of his had a few of those FLQ numpties deported to his favorite vacation destination (Cuba), then allowed them to re-enter Canada after a few years, and they all have pardons and passports.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Difficult to say which is worse - a wannabe PM who doesn't know the difference between citizenship and a passport, or a wannabe PM who objects to removing passport privileges from assholes.


----------



## Canucks

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Difficult to say which is worse - a wannabe PM who doesn't know the difference between citizenship and a passport, or a wannabe PM who objects to removing passport privileges from assholes.


Unbelievable, this should be a given. As far as I am concerned not only should they have the passports revoked but also charged. Canadians who don't get involved in politics need to realize that it is a crucial time for our being. Last thing we need is to turn into Europe where minorities will take over the government. By no means am I a resist but when push comes to shove we need to protect our kids futures, our freedoms, and our well-being.


----------



## George Wallace

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> ........ father of his had a few of those FLQ numpties deported to his favorite vacation destination (Cuba), then allowed them to re-enter Canada after a few years, and they all have pardons and passports.



What I found most interesting of that incident, is the fact that one or more of them became staunch Federalists on their return.  Deportation to a country that reflects their beliefs, may be the eye-opener that they need to show them the folly of their ways.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> The problem lies not in the pot, but rather in the melting. Or lack thereof.



To beat the metaphor a bit more, the problem lies in the fire under the pot. 

Multiculturalism to be successful has to hang off of a healthy trunk which is the main culture which is tolerant of other cultures that do not cross certain lines. Those lines need to be clearly marked so immigrants coming to this country can know what is and what is not acceptable. The Conservatives did make steps in that direction.


----------



## ModlrMike

Colin P said:
			
		

> To beat the metaphor a bit more, the problem lies in the fire under the pot.
> 
> Multiculturalism to be successful has to hang off of a healthy trunk which is the main culture which is tolerant of other cultures that do not cross certain lines. Those lines need to be clearly marked so immigrants coming to this country can know what is and what is not acceptable. The Conservatives did make steps in that direction.



That's where I was going. It's near impossible to have a truly multicultural society when some cultures refuse to integrate. I'm not talking assimilation; which is much different. When folks come from other lands and settle in self propagating cultural ghettos, without changing who or what they were in the old country, you have a recipe for the sort of extremist mafia that grows in these closed communities.


----------



## Rifleman62

Sounds like it is similar to a First Nation reservation.


----------



## The_Falcon

Mod note

Lets try to keep this on track since there is already a large thread, discussion, disection of the failure/success of multiculturalism around here.


----------



## cryco

If they walk among us and are willing to leave Canada to join the thugs in ISIS, why do we want to keep them here?  Take their passports and send them off.
I know it's an extra fighter that could be on the ground in Iraq or Syria or wherever, but that's one less clown in Canada, and at least if we let them go there, there's a chance that they get nailed by one of many airstrikes down there. 
Hmm, to answer my own question, I imagine if they go there and get armed with an AK they can possibly kill many innocent people, and i'm not cold enough to say that's not my problem, because as a caring human, it kinda is.


----------



## Edward Campbell

In this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _The Economist_, that newspaper suggests that, despite M. Trudeau's opposition, Canadians, broadly, support the initiative:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2014/09/canadas-foreign-fighters


> *Canada's foreign fighters[/i]
> And don’t come back
> 
> Sep 23rd 2014
> 
> by M.D. | OTTAWA
> 
> AS WESTERN democracies struggle with how to deal with homegrown terrorists fighting abroad, the Conservative government of Canada has begun revoking the passports of its foreign fighters as well as people still in Canada planning to join them. Chris Alexander, minister for citizenship and immigration, would not say exactly how many passports have been revoked, only that it has been done multiple times against some of the estimated 130 Canadians fighting with extremists, dozens of whom are in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> Taking passports away from suspected terrorists is controversial. It gives other countries the incentive to respond in kind, and it severs the route home for those who might be having second thoughts. Human-rights advocates in Canada say the secretive process used to determine whether a person is a threat to national security, one of the criteria for having your passport revoked, allows the government to make arbitrary decisions. These can be challenged in court but only within 30 days of the decision.
> 
> The British government ran into opposition earlier this month when it contemplated confiscating the passports of its citizens suspected of fighting for the Islamic State (IS), potentially blocking them from coming home. Australia, another source of foreign fighters, is embroiled in a debate over a move by the government to declare entire regions no-go zones, making it a crime for Australians to travel there. Under the proposed legislation, the government in Canberra does not have to prove that the purpose of travel is terrorism, only that the person went to the specified zone.
> 
> Ever since the attacks on the United States in 2001, Canada has been toughening its terrorism legislation. In 2004 a Liberal government brought in a law allowing it to revoke passports under certain circumstances. This is the power the government is now using. In 2013 the Conservative government made it a crime to leave or attempt to leave the country for the purpose of committing terrorist acts abroad. Earlier this year the government passed a law allowing it to revoke the citizenship—not just the passport—of dual citizens convicted in Canada or abroad of major crimes, including terrorism. Mr Alexander has not yet used this power but says he will do so, despite objections that this creates two-tiered citizenship.
> 
> A groundswell of opposition to the government’s decision to revoke passports is unlikely, however. Stories, like that of a 23-year-old Canadian who joined IS in April and wrote online about playing soccer with severed heads or that of a former student from Calgary threatening Canada in an IS video, tend to harden public sentiment. When Mr Alexander says the moves are necessary “to ensure that Canada’s good name is not besmirched by these people any more than it already has been and that Canadians are protected,” his message broadly resonates.*


*


And, in the Globe and Mail, Brian Gable gives us the "foreign fighters" (and Justin Trudeau's?) reaction:





Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/summer-fling/article20282346/#dashboard/follows/*


----------



## The_Falcon

cryco said:
			
		

> If they walk among us and are willing to leave Canada to join the thugs in ISIS, why do we want to keep them here?  Take their passports and send them off.
> I know it's an extra fighter that could be on the ground in Iraq or Syria or wherever, but that's one less clown in Canada, and at least if we let them go there, there's a chance that they get nailed by one of many airstrikes down there.
> Hmm, to answer my own question, I imagine if they go there and get armed with an AK they can possibly kill many innocent people, and i'm not cold enough to say that's not my problem, because as a caring human, it kinda is.



You answered your own question, knowingly allowing "Canadians" to go and participate in this brutality is morally and ethically wrong.  As well, 1) we don't want "Canadians" acting as mouth pieces over there and legitimizing them or their cause, in the minds of impressionable people back here.  2) There is always the possibility they do not die, and somehow make it back to Canada, where they are now battle hardened, more radicalized than before they left.


----------



## cryco

Indeed, I hadn't thought of point 1) and I falsely assumed that by taking away their passports and sending them off does not mean they can't come back, since they still have Canadian citizenship.
So what are they doing to those they know of that want to leave and join the IS cause?


----------



## George Wallace

This is one solution that whittles down the chances of those who have left to fight for the cause of barbarianism.  We already have reports of cases like this coming in from Somalia, Libya and other Islamic states.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Hamilton man could be first Canadian killed in anti-ISIS military campaign
> 
> The National Post
> Stewart Bell and Adrian Humphreys | September 24, 2014 | Last Updated: Sep 24 9:57 AM ET
> 
> HAMILTON, Ont. —  Federal officials are trying to confirm whether a 20-year-old man from Hamilton, Ont., was killed last week during clashes between Kurdish forces and Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham fighters in northern Syria.
> 
> After disappearing two months ago, Mohamud Mohamed Mohamud reportedly phoned home to tell his mother he was with the “brothers” in Syria. A few days ago reports appeared online indicating he had been killed.
> 
> “We are aware of reports that a Canadian was killed while allegedly fighting with ISIS,” John Babcock, a Foreign Affairs spokesman, said Tuesday when asked about Mr. Mohamud. “We are following the situation closely.”
> 
> If the accounts are correct, he would be the first Canadian jihadist killed in the escalating anti-ISIS military campaign, which involves support for Kurdish militias and Iraqi forces, and a U.S.-led air campaign that struck hard on Tuesday.
> 
> Several Canadian jihadists took to Twitter following the strikes, signalling they had survived, but officials are concerned that as the coalition air strikes begin to take their toll, some foreign fighters could flee and attempt to return to Canada.
> 
> The online posts claimed a Somali-Canadian had died during ISIS raids on Kurdish villages near the Turkish border. He was not named but former classmates told the National Post the gunman in the accompanying photo was Mr. Mohamud.
> 
> 
> Known to friends as “Mo3,” he lived with his mother, Asha, in Hamilton and is a former student of St. Thomas More Catholic Secondary School in the city’s diverse West Mountain neighbourhood, although he did not graduate from there.
> 
> His father, who lives in Minneapolis, told Voice of America last week that his son had recently become extremely devout. During a visit to Minneapolis last July, Mr. Mohamud left for the mosque but never returned.
> 
> Hamilton police referred questions about Mr. Mohamud to the RCMP, which declined to comment. Mr. Mohamud did not respond to messages sent to either of his Facebook pages. His phone was not in service.
> 
> “We did have the young man with us for a few years,” said Susanna Fortino-Bozzo, principal at St. Thomas More. “I have a very vivid recollection of him being a very friendly, very sociable member of the school community.
> 
> “The young man was a respectful and hardworking student. He was friendly, sociable, very academically oriented. He was a vibrant member of the community. He was involved in extracurricular activities,” Ms. Fortino-Bozzo said.
> 
> News of his reported death — and the circumstances of it — will shock and sadden the school community, the principal said. “It is a very difficult and challenging piece of news for us to take,” she said. “I’m hoping there is a horrible mistake or error because it is very hard to correlate what you say with the person we knew. Something like this, if it indeed is correct, is going to impact a lot of people here. There are a lot of questions.”
> 
> At St. Thomas, Mr. Mohamud was the Grade 9 representative to student council in 2008 and gave a well-received speech to the entire school, former students said. “He was very outgoing and confident. He wasn’t afraid to speak his mind. Just to run for student council in Grade 9 shows his confidence and ambition,” said Jacqueline Fitzmaurice, a former student president.
> 
> “He was energetic, he was hardworking, there was nothing out of the ordinary, nothing to connect him to any extremist perspective. This is very unexpected,” said Nick Klimchuk, who was student president when Mr. Mohamud sat on council.
> 
> In 2011, Mr. Mohamud left St. Thomas More. He then attended Sir Allan MacNab Secondary School, according to Facebook profiles, which also describe him as a model for U.S. clothing retailer Hollister Co. But school and board officials could not confirm he graduated. Several students and staff said they had no memory of him when shown a photo, and he did not appear in any of MacNab’s yearbooks.
> 
> Online, Mr. Mohamud seemed more concerned with video games than world events. He chatted about Call of Duty, a series of first-person shooter games praised for their realistic and intense combat simulation. The month of the 2011 release of the series Modern Warfare 3 he told friends on Facebook: “MW3 is actually a great game!”
> 
> Nothing on either of his Facebook pages hinted at any interest whatsoever in religion, politics or Syria.
> 
> “Our prayers are with all of those impacted by this very unfortunate death. It’s just tragic,” said Ms. Fortino-Bozzo.
> 
> In the Voice of America interview, Mr. Mohamud’s father told reporter Harun Maruf he was taken aback by his son’s sudden transformation. “He used to pray but he increased it to 24 hours of prayers, and he was rarely away from mosques,” he told Mr. Maruf.
> 
> “He arranged his travel without my knowledge, and then he ended up in Syria,” he said, adding he had transited through Turkey. He urged his son to leave before he hurt someone or was killed. “All of us are very saddened. We did not expect he would do this.”
> 
> Those who have spoken to the family emphasized there was no confirmation Mr. Mohamud was dead. Verifying deaths in Syria and Iraq is extremely difficult given the absence of reporters and diplomats. A Canadian ISIS member who was declared dead by his colleagues last summer later resurfaced to say he had been injured but was alive and in Mosul.
> 
> National Post
> 
> • Email: sbell@nationalpost.com




More on LINK.


----------



## The_Falcon

I find it interesting (but not surprising), the massive amount of spin in that article.


----------



## dimsum

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/australian-defence-force-officer-sailor-attacked-in-sydney/story-fnpdbcmu-1227070582176



> AN Australian Defence Force officer and a sailor have been attacked in two separate Sydney incidents.
> 
> Police say a 41-year-old ADF serving member was in full uniform when he was allegedly approached by two men of Middle Eastern appearance in Bella Vista this morning.
> 
> The officer told police he was threatened and assaulted about 6.30am, leaving him with minor bruising.
> 
> The attack comes amid reports that police were investigating an alleged attack on a sailor in full navy uniform in the centre of the CBD today.
> 
> The sailor’s assailant was also allegedly a man of Middle Eastern appearance.



This follows after raids in Sydney and Brisbane last week, and the killing of a man who wounded two counter-terrorism officers with a knife in a Melbourne police station.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I don't know if our loser wannabes up here would have the balls to try it, but I think that it will only get worse down in Oz.  They seem to have a larger percentage of the freaks that want to rabble rouse.  Happy to read that the police capped that kid.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Anti-government _movements_ have long embraced a tactic of "aggressive confrontation" which aims to provoke the police or army (government forces) to make _excessive_ responses to seemingly minor provocation. And it worked, too ...









... it worked so well that Europeans and North Americans elected to ignore the aims of the radicals, the Lenins, and to group them with the Martin Luther Kings.

My sense is that the current generation of _Islamists_/_radical, militant fundamentalist Muslims_/_whatevers_ are using the same tactic. They want us to attack them with force beyond that which their actions, in and of themselves, merit. They want us to cross the street when he sees a guy with a beard and a _taqiyah_ or _keffiyeh_.* They want us to fear and then shun our Muslim neighbours; they _think_ that young Muslims in America, Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark and so on will respond by hating their (generally) white, secular, non-Muslim neighbours (people like most of us) and join or support ever more radical Muslim movements. It worked in the past; it can work again.

I, _personally_, am conflicted: my heart _*wants*_ our government to find and kill these guys, and I'm not overly fussed about "collateral damage" or "innocent civilians," either; but my head says that our responses need to be _proportionate_, we must not give the radicals what they want: martyrs.

_____
* The taqiyah is the Muslim skull cap, the keffiyeh is the familiar head scarf


----------



## Edward Campbell

Further: _The Telegraph_ reports that British police have arrested nine men, including radical cleric Anjem Choudary, in London. "The men were arrested this morning on suspicion of being members of, or supporting, a banned organisation, a Metropolitan Police spokesman said ... Al-Muhajiroun* is understood to be the banned organisation in question, according to sources."

_____
* See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Muhajiroun


----------



## George Wallace

It will be interesting to watch the outcome of the arrest of Anjem Choudary, who has been the center of many reports on radicals in Britain.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is one solution that whittles down the chances of those who have left to fight for the cause of barbarianism.  We already have reports of cases like this coming in from Somalia, Libya and other Islamic states.
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> 
> More on LINK.


Another interesting bit of information from another account of Mohamud Mohamed Mohamud's journey ....


> ....  The young man's death hit his family extra hard because two months earlier, they had alerted both CSIS and the RCMP that Mohamud may have become radicalized. It was the family's frantic bid to prevent him from crossing into Syria from Turkey.
> 
> "They contacted me and said: 'We need to tell the RCMP and CSIS right away, this is not right,'" Hamdani recalled.
> 
> Both agencies met with the family, and tried to find ways to thwart Mohamud's entry into Syria.
> 
> They failed, and four days after he'd surprised his family by flying unannounced to Turkey, he texted his mother to say he was in Syria alongside his "brothers."
> 
> Two months later and CSIS officials visited his family here to tell them that while there was no official confirmation, jihadists were announcing their son's death on their websites.
> 
> "They're devastated. They know they were only one or two days late and (if) they could have caught him on the plane ... we could have a whole different story," Hamdani said ....


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to watch the outcome of the arrest of Anjem Choudary, who has been the center of many reports on radicals in Britain.


He is like a greased pig.  Slippery and slimey and almost impossible to get a grip on.  He is one individual I would love to see renditioned to a Gitmo type of place for the ice bucket challenge.  I would be surprised if they are able to make anything stick, he has a history of knowing just how far he can get to the line before crossing it.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> He is like a greased pig.  Slippery and slimey and almost impossible to get a grip on.  He is one individual I would love to see renditioned to a Gitmo type of place for the ice bucket challenge.  I would be surprised if they are able to make anything stick, he has a history of knowing just how far he can get to the line before crossing it.



In a Hollywood suspense/thriller spy movie, he would have been terminated clandestinely with extreme prejudice a long time ago.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> He is like a greased pig.  Slippery and slimey and almost impossible to get a grip on.  He is one individual I would love to see renditioned to a Gitmo type of place for the ice bucket challenge.  I would be surprised if they are able to make anything stick, he has a history of knowing just how far he can get to the line before crossing it.



You're a tad bit more liberal than I. On listening silence now.

F##k with the bull and you get the horn.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You're a tad bit more liberal than I. On listening silence now.
> 
> F##k with the bull and you get the horn.


I was trying to walk that thin line as he does.  But, seeing as you've asked.  I am thinking more of a re-enactment of one of the final scenes from "Fargo" that involves "yard equipment".  That, makes me smile...   :nod:


----------



## CougarKing

We should be vigilant here in Canada as well since previous ISIS statements included an intention to target Canadians.

Reuters



> *Iraqi PM says Islamic State plans subway attacks in U.S. and Paris*
> BY ARSHAD MOHAMMED
> NEW YORK Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:05pm EDT
> 
> 
> (Reuters) - *Iraq has received "credible" intelligence that Islamic State militants plan to attack subway systems in Paris and the United States, Iraq's prime minister said on Thursday, but U.S. and French officials said they had no evidence to back up the claim.*
> 
> Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi's comments were met with surprise and cautious skepticism by security, intelligence and transit officials in both countries.
> 
> Abadi said he had received the information Thursday morning from militants captured in Iraq and concluded it was credible after asking for further details. The attacks, he said, were plotted from inside Iraq by "networks" of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

NYC officials trying to downplay the ISIS subway threat?

Reuters



> *New York officials scramble to reassure city after security threat*
> BY ELLEN WULFHORST
> NEW YORK Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:39pm EDT
> 
> (Reuters) - A warning by Iraq's prime minister that Islamist militants planned to attack New York City sent political leaders scrambling on Thursday to assure the public it was safe to ride the subways and travel the streets of the nation's largest city.
> 
> New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio each had the same idea - take a subway ride to a busy transit hub to announce that everything was under control.
> 
> "I have a simple message for all New Yorkers. There is no immediate credible threat to our subway system," de Blasio said at a hastily arranged news conference at Manhattan's Union Square where he arrived by subway from City Hall.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## George Wallace

Well.  It is now on our doorsteps.  Is this fellow a madman who just happens to be a Muslim, or does he actually believe in a Jihad?

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Woman Beheaded By Islamist In Oklahoma - Off Duty Officer Saved 2nd Victim
> 
> After being fired from his job at an Oklahoma food processing plant, Alton Alexander Nolen went on a rampage killing and beheading one woman.
> 
> Mark Vaughn, chief operating officer of the business and also a reserve police officer, is being hailed as a hero after he shot Nolen while the suspect was actively stabbing a second woman.
> 
> Fellow employees stated that Nolen had been attempting to convert many member of the office to the Muslim faith for many months. At this time the suspect and incident have not been connected with any ISIS motives, but the FBI is investigating the possibility.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaphdxdiraw


----------



## dimsum

Dimsum said:
			
		

> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/australian-defence-force-officer-sailor-attacked-in-sydney/story-fnpdbcmu-1227070582176
> 
> This follows after raids in Sydney and Brisbane last week, and the killing of a man who wounded two counter-terrorism officers with a knife in a Melbourne police station.



The RAN officer has now withdrawn the allegations.  

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/terror/defence-chief-apologises-as-adf-officer-withdraws-assault-claim/story-fnpdbcmu-1227071475478


----------



## George Wallace

UPDATE:



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well.  It is now on our doorsteps.  Is this fellow a madman who just happens to be a Muslim, or does he actually believe in a Jihad?
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaphdxdiraw



Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Police: Suspect in Okla. beheading was Muslim convert
> Doug Stanglin, USA TODAY 9:21 p.m. EDT September 26, 2014
> 
> A newly fired employee at a food processing plant in Moore, Okla., allegedly stabbed and beheaded a 54-year-old front office worker, police said Friday, according to local media.
> 
> Police said the FBI was asked for assistance in the case because of the "manner of death" of the victim and reports from co-workers that the suspect, 30-year-old Alton Nolen, had recently started trying to convert several employees to Islam.
> 
> Nolen had just been fired from Vaughan Foods on Thursday afternoon when he drove to the front of the building, hit another vehicle and walked inside, according to police, KFOR-TV reports.
> 
> "Nolen encountered (fellow worker Colleen) Hufford with a knife," said Sgt. Jeremy Lewis with the Moore Police Department. "During the attack, Nolen severed the victim's head."
> 
> Lewis said the knife may have been used by Nolen at the plant to cut lettuce or vegetables.
> 
> Another woman, Traci Johnson, 43, was stabbed and wounded in the attack, Lewis said, according to The Norman Transcript.
> 
> Authorities said Mark Vaughan, CFO of the company and a reserve Oklahoma County deputy, shot Nolen several times with a rifle.
> 
> "This was not going to stop if he didn't stop it. It could have gotten a lot worse," Lewis told the Associated Press. The suspect was hospitalized and is expected to survive.
> 
> "After conducting interviews with Nolen's coworkers, information was obtained that he recently started trying to convert several employees to the Muslim religion," Lewis said.
> 
> He said the FBI was asked for assistance because of the "manner of death and the initial statements of the co-workers and other initial information."
> 
> Nolen had the words "as-salaamu alaikum," Arabic for "peace be with you," tattooed on his abdomen according to Corrections Department records, NewsOk.com reports. He also had "Jesus Christ" tattooed on his chest, "Judah" on his left arm and praying hands on his right arm.
> 
> Court records show that Nolen was convicted on drug-related charges and of assaulting an officer in 2011, NewsOk.com reports. In October 2010, he led state troopers on a 12-hour, high-speed chase after he was pulled over because of outstanding warrants.
> 
> Contributing: Associated Press




Video interviews, accused photo and more on LINK.

33 Things We Learned About the Oklahoma Beheading Suspect: What His Hand Signal Means Will Chill You is posted on the IJR website that may be credible and may not.


----------



## Rifleman62

Pending finding by the Obama Administration: Work Place Violence, just like Fort Hood. I expect 40 FBI agents and the Justice Department to descend on Moore, OK just like they did on Ferguson, MO.  :nod:


----------



## CougarKing

Australia conducts more counter-terrorism raids:

Reuters



> *Australian counter-terrorism police raid Melbourne properties*
> Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:23pm EDT
> By Lincoln Feast
> 
> SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian police said they had raided a number of properties around the southern city of Melbourne on Tuesday, part of a security crackdown on radical Islamists authorities believe are planning attacks in the country.
> 
> Australia, which is backing the United States and its escalating action against Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, is on high alert for attacks by radicalised Muslims or by home-grown militants returning from fighting in the Middle East.
> 
> *Last week, an 18-year-old identified as Abdul Numan Haider was shot and killed by counter-terrorism police in the Melbourne suburb of Endeavour Hills after he attacked them with a knife.
> *
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The_Falcon

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Pending finding by the Obama Administration: Work Place Violence, just like Fort Hood. I expect 40 FBI agents and the Justice Department to descend on Moore, OK just like they did on Ferguson, MO.  :nod:



Quite a few media outlets, and LE are describing it as an "isolated incident of workplace violence"  :


----------



## CougarKing

I don't care if she was born in the US; someone please deport this woman. She's just as bad as Zaynab Khadr, the vitriolic Taliban sympathizer and sister of Omar Khadr.

Yahoo News



> *Boston Marathon bombing suspect's sister appears in court for alleged bomb threat*
> With the Boston Marathon bombing trial looming, the Tsarnaev family is engulfed in legal problems and drama
> 
> By Holly Bailey | Yahoo News – 7 hours ago
> 
> On Aug. 25, a New York City woman caught up in a messy child custody battle with her ex-boyfriend got into a fight on the phone with her former flame’s new girlfriend. According to the police, heated words were exchanged, and the girlfriend, who also has a child with the man, was subsequently arrested and charged with harassment after she allegedly threatened the other woman’s life.
> 
> It was an altercation that likely would have been buried in the reams of other ugly domestic disputes in New York. Except the accused was *Ailina Tsarnaeva*, the 24-year-old sister of alleged Boston Marathon bombers Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. And, according to police, *she allegedly threatened the other woman by telling her, “I have people. I know people that can put a bomb where you live.”*
> 
> Tsarnaeva appeared in New York Criminal Court on Tuesday. She entered a not guilty plea to two charges of aggravated harassment, a misdemeanor, for allegedly threatening her boyfriend’s 23-year-old former girlfriend, who has not been named in the dispute. (Tsarnaeva's friends have said the man is her husband, but police have referred to him as her boyfriend.)
> 
> A resident of North Bergen, N.J., Tsarnaeva turned herself in on Aug. 27 and was released on a desk appearance ticket, which allows a defendant to bypass jail and appear in court at a later date. But she was led away in handcuffs after her court appearance Tuesday after prosecutors said she violated an order of protection by driving past the other woman's home earlier this month. Her bail was set at $5,000.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## George Wallace

Recent disturbing news that is slipping under the radar and not getting much attention here at home.


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Judge blasts 'unjust honour-based values' while sentencing immigrant mom and son to jail
> BY TONY SPEARS, OTTAWA SUN
> FIRST POSTED: TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2014 04:48 PM EDT | UPDATED: TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 23, 2014 08:02 PM EDT
> 
> Archaic and unjust honour-based values have no place in Canadian society, a judge said before sending an immigrant mother and son to the slammer.
> 
> Iqbal Bibi and Khawar Saeed had been convicted of tormenting the family’s then-22-year-old daughter, who they believed had dishonoured the family by having the temerity to date a white man who worked with her at a McDonald’s.
> 
> Judge Monique Metivier ordered Bibi, a 49-year-old Pakistani woman who speaks no English, to learn the language and Canadian values — and she handed Bibi a five-month jail sentence.
> 
> Metivier sentenced Saeed, 22, to seven months in the clink for what she said were crimes “rooted in gender discrimination.”
> 
> “The cultural norms under which Mr. Saeed was operating are antithetical to Canadian values,” the judge said during sentencing Monday.
> 
> “The facts here do not obviate the need for significant condemnation of these crimes.”
> 
> Bibi, convicted of intimidation, shrieked threats at her own daughter outside the boyfriend’s house, where the young woman had fled to escape her family.
> 
> Saeed, convicted of criminal harassment, sent menacing text messages while the campaign of intimidation raged in the summer of 2011.
> 
> “If dad doesn’t kill you, I will,” one text read.
> 
> Crown prosecutor Kerry McVey had asked for nine-month jail sentences.
> 
> “Honour violence can’t be allowed to gain traction in this country,” she told the court.
> 
> But defence lawyers Peter Beach and Jeffrey Langevin argued against jail for Bibi and Saeed, portraying them as victims of a dictatorial father, Mohammed Saeed, who had pleaded guilty to assaulting the daughter and got a 10-month jail sentence in a separate proceeding.
> 
> Though the family had immigrated to Canada in 2005, Langevin argued Saeed remained in the thrall of his father’s rigid beliefs.
> 
> And the lawyer noted Saeed had actually intervened to stop his father from beating up the daughter.
> 
> “He’s a young man whose father is king of the household,” Langevin said. “He’s horribly caught in the middle of this cultural clash.”
> 
> Beach said Bibi — a first-time offender with a very limited education — is a “fragile person” for whom jail would be especially harsh.
> 
> “She was a very isolated wife,” he said.
> 
> While Metivier conceded that Bibi may have acted under cultural and family pressure, the judge said mother and son “shared a dangerous belief system that has and can lead to violence against women.”
> 
> “These require significant denunciation.”
> 
> As for Saeed, a bad pre-sentence report sealed his fate; the author believed Saeed continues to harbour resentment towards his sister.
> 
> Metivier said Saeed exploited what had been a close relationship with his sister “to manipulate her.”
> 
> “I cannot find that a sentence of time served in the community would sufficiently denounce and deter this particular offender and others similarly inclined,” Metivier said.
> 
> Saeed told the judge the past three years had changed him “a lot.”
> 
> “I promise nothing like this will ever happen again,” he said.
> 
> Bibi said nothing when given the chance to speak, but she wept after the judge sentenced her to jail.
> 
> With credit for pre-sentence custody and time spent on strict release conditions, Bibi got 33 days in jail.
> 
> Saeed will serve 74 days.
> 
> The pair also got probation under the terms of which Bibi will have to take English as a Second Language classes or cultural integration programs.
> 
> Twitter: @ottawasuntonys



More on LINK.


And if that is not disturbing enough for you; this from Toronto:



> VIDEO: Toronto Mosque teaches 4-5 year olds beheading


More on LINK.


----------



## Edward Campbell

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Recent disturbing news that is slipping under the radar and not getting much attention here at home.
> 
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> More on LINK.
> 
> 
> And if that is not disturbing enough for you; this from Toronto:
> More on LINK.




I hope readers took the time to watch the explanation. The "morality play" the children saw, and in which other children participated, commemorates the slaughter of the Prophet Mohammed's family by the caliphate of the day. It is _disturbing_, especially in light of what IS** is doing, but it hardly rises to the headline of "Mosque teaches 4-5 beheading" ... unless we can say that the _Passion Play" teaches Christians how to crucify Jews.





_


----------



## dimsum

A good reminder that fanatics (of whatever religion), not the religion itself, is the enemy here.



> The Muslim and Christian religions have much in common.  Radical fanatics do bad things and we all need to stand together against them. Islam holds no monopoly on the production of radical fanatics. Hitler is a good example.
> 
> Muslim troops fought with the Allies in World War II, and Muslims in many capacities heroically stepped in and saved the lives of thousands of Jewish people. Michael Wolfe has researched this topic and turned up some fascinating stories.



http://www.theage.com.au/comment/fanatics-not-muslims-are-our-enemy-20140926-10mg5k.html


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The religion can be when it explicitly states what to do to unbelievers and the majority of believers follow that. Like it or not, some religions will be incompatibly with our society. Islam is more than the Koran, it is the Hadith's and jurisprudence that has accumulated over the last 1400 years. Islam is also not just one religion but 2 significantly different branches each with many sub branches. Salafi is the branch that is causing the world much of the problem and excluding practitioners of that branch from the country would be a wise move.


----------



## Jed

Colin P said:
			
		

> The religion can be when it explicitly states what to do to unbelievers and the majority of believers follow that. Like it or not, some religions will be incompatible (sp) with our society. Islam is more than the Koran, it is the Hadith's and jurisprudence that has accumulated over the last 1400 years. Islam is also not just one religion but 2 significantly different branches each with many sub branches. Salafi is the branch that is causing the world much of the problem and excluding practitioners of that branch from the country would be a wise move.




I agree with you in this regard. This key point sets Islam apart from Christianity or Judaism. There is no "live and let live" with in the greater devout Muslim community.
 edited to add. In my opinion the greater majority of devout Muslims will not accept anything less than the eventual conversion and / or elimination of all points of view that their version of God is the one true God. I do not believe this the case for the vast majority of devout Christians or Jews or Agnostics (near Atheists) for that matter.


----------



## The_Falcon

Colin P said:
			
		

> The religion can be when it explicitly states what to do to unbelievers and the majority of believers follow that. Like it or not, some religions will be incompatibly with our society. Islam is more than the Koran, it is the Hadith's and jurisprudence that has accumulated over the last 1400 years. *Islam is also not just one religion but 2 significantly different branches each with many sub branches*. Salafi is the branch that is causing the world much of the problem and excluding practitioners of that branch from the country would be a wise move.



Reference the bolded part, you mean just like Christianity and Judaism which both have different branch and sub-branches, and which don't always play nice with each other.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

There are branches of Islam that are generally peaceful and live well with others. Near my house is an Ismail Mosque sharing a parking lot with a church, works great, one uses the parking lot on Friday, the other Sunday. I think the steps that Canada has taken to educate wannabe immigrants on what is expected in the way of behaviour in this country is a good step and that anyone professing to belong to certain branches of Islam be denied entrance, because it ain't worth our time or theirs. For those coming in make them sign an agreement in their language that would basically make a devout nutbar stop cold. One problem is that many "devout Muslims" would stare blankly at you if you asked if they belonged to the Sufi or Salafi branches because they really don't know that much other than what they are told. Which leads me to my other concern, keep a tight wrap on Iman's and what is being taught. Make them take "Canadian cultural courses" so they know what they can and can't preach.


----------



## Jed

Colin P said:
			
		

> There are branches of Islam that are generally peaceful and live well with others. Near my house is an Ismail Mosque sharing a parking lot with a church, works great, one uses the parking lot on Friday, the other Sunday. I think the steps that Canada has taken to educate wannabe immigrants on what is expected in the way of behaviour in this country is a good step and that anyone professing to belong to certain branches of Islam be denied entrance, because it ain't worth our time or theirs. For those coming in make them sign an agreement in their language that would basically make a devout nutbar stop cold. One problem is that many "devout Muslims" would stare blankly at you if you asked if they belonged to the Sufi or Salafi branches because they really don't know that much other than what they are told. Which leads me to my other concern, keep a tight wrap on Iman's and what is being taught. Make them take "Canadian cultural courses" so they know what they can and can't preach.



Yes but many devout ? spiritual ? Christians / other non Muslims don't know if they are Protestant, Catholic, Full Gospel, etc. either and many change in the passage of time. Also how can you keep a tight wrap on the Imams' and what is taught? Could we even do this or want to do this with a nutbar Anglican or Mormon, for example?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I might be bored to death by an Anglican but not blown up by one.  ;D

The Charter rights might be an issue for sure, which is why your first line of defense is the immigration system.


----------



## dimsum

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which leads me to my other concern, keep a tight wrap on Iman's and what is being taught. Make them take "Canadian cultural courses" so they know what they can and can't preach.



I agree with your idea, but how does one actually do that, short of having minders/surveillance on every service the *insert religious preacher* holds?  And how would that look to said religious community?


----------



## George Wallace

An update on a murder in TORONTO, of a firefighter in an unprovoked assaulted last September, which has been quietly floating under the radar:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Hearing likely to determine fate of man who killed firefighter
> 
> Metro News
> September 4, 2014 Updated	: September 4, 2014 | 11:39 pm
> 
> A judge may have to decide whether Nabil Huruy is criminally responsible for the violent and unprovoked murder of a Markham firefighter in a café on the Danforth a year ago.
> 
> Huruy pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder of Dominic Parker, 45, in May and Superior Court Justice Ian Nordheimer ordered him to undergo a psychiatric assessment at the Waypoint Centre for Mental Heath Care in Penetanguishene before a conviction could be entered.
> 
> The report concludes that “not criminally responsible” (referred to as NCR) is not an available defence, crown attorney Daniel Brandes told the court Thursday morning.
> 
> However, Huruy’s lawyer Bob Richardson said that he would need to have another expert examine the report.
> 
> He expects a hearing will be required to determine if, due to a mental illness, Huruy was able to appreciate the nature of his actions or know they were wrong. “I think that the entire focus of the hearing would be on that issue,” Richardson told the court.
> 
> Huruy, 23, who wore a traditional Islamic white tunic and head covering instead of the usual orange jumpsuit, repeatedly stood to speak during the brief appearance. “Based off the reports (from Waypoint and from the hospital) is it necessary for a trial?” he asked at the start.
> 
> Nordheimer explained that while there won’t be trial due to the guilty plea, there could be a “proceeding akin to a trial.”
> 
> The hearing could require the judge to hear testimony from witnesses in order to assess what occurred, similar to a murder trial like that of Richard Kachkar whose rampage with a snowplow killed Toronto police officer Ryan Russell in 2011.
> 
> Unlike the Kachkar trial, Huruy has entered a guilty plea and the evidence would be heard by a judge alone rather than a jury.
> 
> If Huruy is found not criminally responsible, as Kachkar was, he would be detained in a psychiatric facility under the purview of the Ontario Review Board, rather than in prison.
> 
> On Thursday, Huruy denied that he is mentally ill during a seemingly prepared statement objecting to the way staff at Waypoint treated patients.
> 
> “(At the centre) I thought I got to do my job and guard my own, to prove I’m not mentally ill, and that I was going through something that I let build and bottled up,” he said. “Which put me in the same room as the ones who are truly mentally ill and those that are going along with it to catch a break.”
> 
> According to the agreed statement of facts in the case, Huruy had three brushes with the police, including one that sent him to the hospital for a mental health evaluation, in the days before he walked into the Rotana café, where Parker was playing cards around 1 a.m. on Sept. 14.
> 
> Huruy joined the informal card game, then suddenly attacked Parker with a knife, stabbing him repeatedly in the head. Parker was taken off life-support two days later.
> 
> An NCR hearing is not expected to take place until next year.



Related LINKS:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/markham-ont-firefighter-dies-in-unprovoked-caf%C3%A9-attack-1.1856838

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/muslim-tries-to-decapitate-man-in-a-cafe-in-toronto-without-provocation/

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/off-duty-firefighter-dies-after-east-end-stabbing-1.1457443

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/09/16/markham_firefighter_dies_after_unprovoked_stabbing.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/16/markham-firefighter-dominic-parker-attacked-on-danforth

http://pamelageller.com/2013/09/canada-firefighter-dies-after-muslim-attempts-to-behead-him-without-provocationi-n-toronto-cafe.html/


----------



## George Wallace

One mother's experience, and a glimmer of hope for her:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> My boy the radical Muslim
> 
> The Spectator
> Claire Stevens
> 4 October 2014
> 
> *Ask yourself how you would feel if your child started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews — anyone, in fact, who wasn’t a Muslim man*
> 
> Two years ago this week, my stepson came home wearing an Arabic black thawb. He walked into the sitting-room, smiled defiantly at me and at his father, and asked us how he looked. We were a little shocked, but being English of course we said he looked very nice.
> 
> Our boy had never shown any interest in religion before he found Islam at 16. We’re atheists, and we raised him to be tolerant of all faiths but wary of anyone selling easy answers. It all began after he left school. He was feeling slightly isolated, depressed and vulnerable after breaking up with his first girlfriend, so we were pleased when he began college and some new friends appeared. They were all young Muslim men. Around seven of them would pile into my stepson’s bedroom every evening and we would hear the shouts and yelps of teenage boys amusing themselves.
> 
> It all seemed so normal; it all was so normal. So much so that, when a prayer mat and textbooks on the Qur’an appeared on a shelf in his room, it came as something of a surprise. His father and I discussed his conversion between ourselves but, naively, we saw it as cosmetic change. This was, we reasoned, our boy’s version of going punk or vegan for a few months. We believed that this ‘conversion’ would be a harmless passing phase. We were wrong.
> 
> Over the next few months we saw the boy we knew become buried beneath a spiritual totalitarianism. The word Islam means submission. It allows you to love nothing else; to be a good Muslim, you must surrender yourself completely. Under the informal tutelage of his new friends, our boy eagerly took on the attitudes of his Muslim ‘brothers’ in place of his former personality. Why, he protested, didn’t I cook every night? Why didn’t I ‘look after’ him and his dad like a good (Muslim) woman would? I was lazy, I was ‘irresponsible’, he would say, a smug little smile on his face. I felt angry and sad.
> 
> To keep the peace, I tried to take it as a joke, informing him that I had a career that involved more than just having babies. Gradually though, I found myself worn down by his attitude.
> 
> It wasn’t just women who found themselves at the sharp end of our boy’s new found sagacity. A news story about Afghanistan prompted him to join in our discussion of politics, something which in the past had been of no interest to him. He informed us that the problems in the region were the fault of ‘The Jews’; everything bad in the world could be laid at the door of ‘The Jews’. The Holocaust never happened, he insisted, but in the same breath he would say that ‘the Nazis should have finished them off’. ‘The Jews’ had caused the world financial crisis and, of course, ‘The Jews’ were the reason why he couldn’t find work. It was not because he had neither qualifications nor work experience, although that was probably their fault too.
> 
> Before his conversion, we had together watched Four Lions, the Chris Morris comedy about young British jihadis, and laughed at the idiotic prejudices of the white convert character, Barry. Now our normal teenage boy had been replaced by a caricature. We challenged him, thinking reasonableness would see him acquiesce. But we were not dealing with a rational mind. Our Muslim boy would heed no evidence against his argument and neither did he require any evidence to justify his prejudices. He just shook his head at our ‘blindness’, our blasphemous absence of faith. We’d see, he said, the familiar smug smile appearing: it was all in the Qur’an. We should convert before it was too late.
> 
> Some of you reading this might dismiss me as a bigot, prejudiced against a religion I do not understand. But please ask yourselves how you would feel if your child started spouting hate-filled bile against homosexuals, women, Jews, anyone in fact, who wasn’t a Muslim man? Every day we fought, struggled, wept and grieved for the boy. All we wanted was our son back.
> 
> Two years later, we have started to make some progress. Every day he returns to us a little more. His eyes have light in them again. It’s almost as if he is recovering from some disease. He explains his reversion succinctly: ‘I realised that I was good enough, that I didn’t need to follow someone else’s idea of what I should be.’ He can now take responsibility for his life rather than seeking to blame others. He is maturing. He no longer needs the support of a tribe, which is what attracts Muslims from all backgrounds and nations to the idea of jihad. I’ve come to think that it is youth, not persecution or poverty, that these Islamic State groupies have in common, an embryonic sense of identity. For them, blaming America for the world’s problems is the equivalent of shouting at their parents that they ‘never asked to be born’.
> 
> Every time I hear of another young man who has lied to his family and gone to join the carnage in the Middle East my heart breaks. You can, if you choose to, ignore the problem of the Muslim radicalisation of our youth in the mosques and on the streets. It is, after all, so easy to tolerate what does not immediately affect you, and it’s nice to feel that one is liberal about Islam. But the lesson I’ve learnt is that we’re going to have to fight for our progressive democracy, because although you may tolerate Islam, Islam might not tolerate you. When it lives in your house, eats your food, sleeps under your roof, enjoys all the comforts you provide, all the while despising you, then you will be forced to make a choice.
> 
> Claire Stevens is a pseudonym.
> 
> This article first appeared in the print edition of The Spectator magazine, dated 4 October 2014



LINK


----------



## jollyjacktar

It's nice to read of a success story.  However, it's sad to think it's the only one I've seen.


----------



## ModlrMike

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It's nice to read of a success story.  However, it's sad to think it's the only one I've seen.



Makes me wonder how many more "Claires" there are out there who are losing the struggle.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I'm worried about my nephew in Malaysia, he is turn 16 and a good kid, but will be exposed to a lot of crap and not much I can do about it.


----------



## CougarKing

More about the radical Islamists in Australia:

Reuters



> *Crime and gangs: the path to battle for Australia's Islamist radicals*
> Reuters
> 
> By Matt Siegel | Reuters – 16 hours ago
> 
> SYDNEY (Reuters) - The children of refugees who fled Lebanon's civil war for peaceful Australia in the 1970s form a majority of Australian militants fighting in the Middle East, according to about a dozen counter-terrorism officials, security experts and Muslim community members.
> 
> Of the 160 or so Australian jihadists believed to be in Iraq or Syria, several are in senior leadership positions, they say.
> 
> But unlike fighters from Britain, France or Germany, who experts say are mostly jobless and alienated, a number of the Australian fighters grew up in a tight-knit criminal gang culture, dominated by men with family ties to the region around the Lebanese city of Tripoli, near the border with Syria.
> 
> Not every gang member becomes an Islamic radical and the vast majority of Lebanese Australians are not involved in crime or in radicalism of any sort.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Don't tell me that ISIS is even trying to recruit bored okatu geeks from Japan?  :facepalm:

Military.com



> *Report: Japanese Had Plans to Join Islamic State*
> 
> Associated Press | Oct 07, 2014
> TOKYO — Japanese police questioned a university student and several others Monday over suspected plans to travel to Syria to join the Islamic State group, news reports said.
> The reported investigation by Tokyo police would be the first indication of possible support within Japan for the militant group.
> 
> Tokyo Metropolitan Police declined to comment on the reports.
> Public broadcaster NHK and Kyodo News service said investigators questioned a 26-year-old male Hokkaido University student and several men who shared a house with him on suspicion they were preparing to go to Syria to fight.
> 
> *Investigators believe that the student, who is on a leave of absence from school, responded to a poster at a used-book store in downtown Tokyo offering positions for "work in Syria," Kyodo said. It quoted investigators as saying the student admitted he had planned to join the group in Syria. Police have not found records of any travel there, it said.*
> 
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## OldSolduer

I remember the terrorists of the 70s - Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhof, Carlos the Jackal etc. IIRC the terrorists were mostly university grads, upper middle class types with SFA better to do than kill people.

It seems to me that those joining ISIS are the same type.

Poor folk have better things to do than cause mayhem. They have to earn a living.


----------



## CougarKing

Australia demonstrating it means business when it comes to combating radical Islam:

Reuters



> *Australian PM orders crackdown on visas for radical preachers*
> 
> By Matt Siegel
> 
> SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said on Wednesday that he was ordering a crackdown to prevent radical Islamist preachers entering the country, amidst rising tension with the Muslim community following a series of security-related raids.
> 
> *Abbott, who recently warned that the balance between freedom and security "may have to shift" to protect against radicalized Muslims seeking to carry out attacks, said hate preachers would now be "red-carded" during the visa process.*
> 
> The tougher new system, which he said would not require new legislation, comes on the heels of a speech in Sydney last week by Hizb ut-Tahrir, an international group that says its goal is to establish a pan-national Muslim state.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## George Wallace

We have seen, in the last couple of decades, a rise in the Muslim populations throughout Western Europe.  The troubles in the UK, France, Holland and the Scandinavian countries have been headline news on a regular basis.  The wave of anti-IS protests organized by Kurdish activists has rocked many European capitals, including London, Brussels, The Hague and in Sweden’s Gothenburg brings a new twist to the mix.  We are now seeing secular protests and attacks within the Muslim communities.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Not to worry, folks - Public Safety Canada's getting some of our greatest minds all over it.  These, from the buyandsell.gc.ca public tendering site:

_"The objective of this project is to obtain the professional services of a research team to advance the state of knowledge about the domestic impact in Canada of current (or relatively recent) conflicts abroad, to inform a range of audiences including researchers, officials, communities, and non-government organizations ...."_
_The objective of this project is to obtain the professional services of a research team to advance the state of knowledge about resourcing activities in or with connections to Canada that support terrorist threats to Canada and/or to other countries, and ultimately about effective means to address the resourcing process, from prevention and intervention through to prosecution ...._
_"The objective of this project is to obtain the professional services of a research team to advance the state of knowledge about gender dynamics in both radicalization leading to violence and in countering violent extremism (CVE), to inform a range of audiences including researchers, officials, communities, and non-government organizations ...."_
_"The objective of this project is to obtain the professional services of a research team to advance the state of knowledge about the role of the internet in radicalization leading to violence and about countering violent extremism, and thereby inform a range of audiences including officials, researchers, communities, non-government organizations, and the private and education sectors ...."_


----------



## Marchog

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I hope readers took the time to watch the explanation. The "morality play" the children saw, and in which other children participated, commemorates the slaughter of the Prophet Mohammed's family by the caliphate of the day. It is _disturbing_, especially in light of what IS** is doing, but it hardly rises to the headline of "Mosque teaches 4-5 beheading" ... unless we can say that the _Passion Play" teaches Christians how to crucify Jews.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


_
In discussion of radical Islam, and several times while reading this thread, I have noticed the trend of loading up a proverbial sawed-off shotgun and sending scatter shot haphazardly in the general direction of monotheistic worldviews (read: Christianity). It is important to note the fundamental differences in the ways that the two deal with offenders (outside of maybe the WBC which is largely considered a den of raving heretics by just about every Christian outside of their small family group - and even they haven't gone out and killed anyone as far as I know). "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is simply not a philosophy very conducive to Islam, much less as practised by Izzy IS and Friends. _


----------



## CougarKing

A scary prospect...

Yahoo Daily Brew



> *The reality of 'terror tourism' shown as CSIS tracks 80 terror suspects in Canada*
> By Matthew Coutts | Daily Brew – 6 hours ago
> 
> *As Canada’s military prepares to engage the Islamic State terrorist group ISIS overseas, the battle has taken another turn closer to home, where threats have been leveled, and security agents recently detailed the task they face in monitoring as many as 80 suspects currently on Canadian soil.
> 
> The head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) recently confirmed the number of people who have returned to Canada after visiting violent regions around the world. According to QMI Agency, Michel *
> 
> Coulombe said the spy agency knows exactly where each of those suspects is.
> 
> Coulombe further added there were more Canadians, between 130 and 145, currently overseas and involved with terrorist groups. The news comes on the heels of a compelling report from NBC News, which cites intelligence officials who say Canadian authorities have overheard terrorist suspects plan ISIS-inspired attacks inside the country.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## George Wallace

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> A scary prospect...
> 
> Yahoo Daily Brew



Most North Americans are sitting safely in their homes, and don't think of this kind of thing being possible.  Of course it is possible.


----------



## a_majoor

A blog post on the reality of Islam as preached and practiced in Saudi Arabia. This is what westerners who join Jihad find appealing? The rational mind boggles:

http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2014/10/the-savage-lands-of-islam.html



> *The Savage Lands of Islam*
> 
> Posted by Daniel Greenfield @ the Sultan Knish blog 9 Comments
> 
> The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia ruled that ten year old girls can be married off, because in his words, "Good upbringing makes a girl ready to perform all marital duties at that age."
> 
> The Mufti, who also called for destroying churches in the Arabian Peninsula, is descended from Mohammed Wahhab who gave birth to Wahhabism and whose descendants have controlled the Saudi religious establishment, and through it Islam around the world.
> 
> However for all his power and influence, the Mufti is blind and hasn't seen a thing in the last half century years; an apt metaphor for his entire religion.
> 
> Saudi Arabia, the heartland of Islam, still tries and executes witches. What sort of religion can come out of a place that marries off ten year old girls and murders old women on charges of witchcraft? The sort that flies planes into skyscrapers, murders teenage girls for using Facebook and bases its entire society on a ladder with Muslim men at the top, Muslim women a few rungs below and everyone else somewhere at the bottom.
> 
> The Saudis are not an aberration, they are Islam in its purest and truest form. That is why Al Qaeda was founded by a Saudi and why Saudis, the wealthy citizens of a wealthy kingdom, are its best recruits. It is not poverty or oppression that moves them to kill, but wealth and privilege.
> 
> This is where Islam originated, whose brutality and cunning spread it across the world, whose clans killed each other, then killed or enslaved minority groups, and then embarked on a wave of conquest that destroyed countless cultures and left behind the seeds of hate of the wars we are fighting today.
> 
> Unlike Egypt or Syria, they were never colonized by European powers and the impact of Ottoman influence was limited. Oil has brought in massive amounts of money, but it has changed very little. There are limousines instead of camels, the slaves have foreign passports, though they are often still slaves, there is still a brisk trade in imported luxury goods, harems for princes and clans staggering under the weight of their indolent progeny.
> 
> Religiously, Wahhabism has done its best to recreate the "pure" Islam of its origins. Economically, oil has allowed the Gulf Arabs to prosper without reform or change. And if Mohammed were to ride out of the desert tomorrow, he would have little trouble fitting in, as soon as he developed a taste for Porsches. Anyone who wants to see the world as it was in Mohammed's day can visit Saudi Arabia and see inbred clans, slave labor, veiled women and thugs enforcing the will of Allah on every corner.
> 
> But you don't even need to visit Saudi Arabia because diluted forms of it can be found everywhere from Cairo to London and from Islamabad to Los Angeles. A hundred and fifty years after the United States freed its slaves, Muslim immigrants have brought back slavery, importing young girls to live as their slaves. Ninety years after American women won the right to vote, the ghosts of Islam tread the streets in sheets that hide their personhood and mark them as property.
> 
> The religious wars of the desert have not stayed there as the immigration Hegira has brought them here and everywhere. And that is the source of the Clash of Civilizations. Immigration has brought Muslims into closer contact with different cultures and religions who don't defer to them or give Islam the privileged status that its adherents are used to enjoying.
> 
> To know the truth of this all you have to do is measure the respective tolerance levels of America  against the average Muslim country. There is no comparison with even the more secular Muslim countries, not in law and not in public attitudes. The sole benefit of the Arab Spring has been to expose the fraud of the moderate Muslim country. Egypt's transition to theocracy reminds us that a moderate Muslim state is a completely unrepresentative dictatorship. The alternative is majority Muslim rule.
> 
> The endgame of the Arab Spring and the immigration Hegira is to reduce the entire world to the level of Saudi Arabia. And that means eliminating outside influences in a long march to purification.  Islamists know that they cannot enjoy complete cultural dominance over their own people until their rivals in the West are obliterated. To turn Egypt and Malaysia into Saudi Arabia, and to purify Saudi Arabia, the infidels must be brought down, their religions subjugated and their nations replaced with proper Islamic states.
> 
> Islamic leaders are under no illusion that religion is a spiritual matter, they know that it is a numbers game. Wage enough wars, terrorize enough nations, marry enough barely post-pubescent girls and use them to crank out an endless supply of babies, intimidate or trick enough infidels into joining up and you win. That was how Islam took over so much territory and spread around the world, that is how it is doing it again now.
> 
> Islam is not a spiritual religion, even its paradise is a materialistic place, a fantasy harem where the physical pleasures of life can be enjoyed without restraint. That gives it an advantage over Judaism and Christianity, just as it gives the Saudis and the Pakistanis an advantage over the Americans and Israelis. There is no angst in Islam, no spiritual seeking and no room for doubt. The marching orders are always clear and individual deeds and thoughts matter less than a willingness to always obey.
> 
> Islam came out of the desert and it has never left the desert, instead it has brought the desert with it along with its codes, its deep hatreds, its constant deprivation, its deceptiveness and its nomadic expansionism. Where Islam goes, the desert rises, its tents, its red knives and its insecurities. It was backward even at the time of its birth and it has only become more so, but its singlemindedness is an advantage in an age of effete leftectuals and eurocrats dreaming of a transnational world.
> 
> While the leftectuals dream of windmills, the Saudis hire foreigners to pump their oil and then sell it to them, the money goes to fund the Hegira, its mosques in every city from Dublin to Moscow to Buenos Aires and Toronto, the fatwas, the bombs, the websites where the masked faithful hold up AK-47's, the Islamic science courses and sessions on learning to love the Hijab and then the Burqa,
> 
> The Saudis just want what everyone wants, for everyone to acknowledge their greatness and live like them. They can hardly be blamed for that when the West spends almost as much money promoting democracy and its own way of life to people who still execute witches and blasphemers. They may be savages, but they fell ass backward into enough black gold to fuel a global religious war, and they're using it cleverly and cunningly to transform our societies and wage war against us even while attending dinners at the White House. It's smoother work than our diplomats are capable of.
> 
> You can hardly blame the desert bandits for being what they are, but you can blame the apostles of reason for preaching about a golden age of tolerance and enlightenment from every purloined pulpit and then turning away the heartland to a religion that is nakedly brutal and intolerant at home.
> 
> An honest look at Saudi Arabia, at its cruelty, its slaves, its intolerance of other religions and even of women, should be enough to tell even the dimmest Eton or Harvard grad exactly what the West is in for. No matter how many specialists in Muslim tolerance show up at universities, there is the Grand Mufti explaining that Mohammed commanded the eradication of Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula, and therefore there can be no churches allowed there.
> 
> Even few apologists for Islam will defend Saudi Arabia for the simple reason that it is indefensible. The media will run the occasional story about the House of Saud's commitment to reform, much as Charles Manson keeps committing to becoming a better person, but even they don't really believe it. Yet even though Saudi Arabia is the heartland of Sunni Islam, and its fortunes shape and control mosques and teachings around the world, they insist on treating Islam and Saudi Arabia as two separate things.
> 
> It is brutally telling that the two centers of Islam, Saudi Arabia for the Sunnis and Iran for the Shiites, are genuinely horrifying places. Neither can remotely be associated with tolerance or human rights. It is simple common sense that the spread of Islam will make Western countries more like Saudi Arabia and Iran, rather than less like them.
> 
> If Saudi Arabia is not an example that we wish to emulate, then why must we bodily incorporate the religion of Mecca and Medina into London and Los Angeles? What other possible outcome do we imagine that there will be but fewer rights and more violence, dead women, abused children, bomb plots and polygamy?
> 
> There are two Islams. The real Islam of the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and an imaginary Islam that exists only in the mosques of air and card table Korans of academics apologists and political pundits who have decided that Islam cannot be bad, because no religion can be bad, not even one which kills and kills, it must just be misunderstood.
> 
> But then why not tell the Grand Mufti that he has misunderstood his own religion, the religion that he and his ancestors have dedicated themselves to purifying and reforming back to its roots? Telling him that would be a dangerous thing on his own turf, but it would also be foolish. The Grand Mufti's controversial statements contain nothing that Mohammed had not said.
> 
> Can the founder of a religion misunderstand his own teachings?
> 
> Islam is savage, intolerant, cruel and expansionistic, not due to a misunderstanding, but an understanding of the worst aspects of human nature. It is what it is and no amount of wishing will make it otherwise.
> 
> We have opened the door to the desert and a hot wind blows through into the northern climes. Either we shut the door or get used to living in the Saudi desert.
> - See more at: http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2014/10/the-savage-lands-of-islam.html#sthash.WYfwA4WU.dpuf



Quite frankly, the best defense would be a good offence; and since the battleground and target is the hearts and minds of followers of Islam (and potential converts), *we* had better get good at really understanding what Islam is about and finding and delivering countermessages through authoritative channels. Based on my own (rather limited) understanding, this is a radical version of Islam, much like the militant Catholic church of the Inquisition. But like Christianity, there are multiple branches of Islam as well, so *we* would be smart to enlist the help of another branch (say the Sufi's), flood the airways and mosques with their Imans (much the way the Saudis have used their petri dollars to inflict their radical Imans on us...) and peel away support for radicalism.


----------



## George Wallace

What culture are we defending?  Do we want immigrants to change our culture and religions to accommodate them, or do we want to integrate them into our broader society?  Here is a case where a cultural value, not religious, is being put forward as what we should accept as a Canadian cultural norm, that would hid the identity of the person under the disguise:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> MISSISSAUGA: PAKISTANI WOMAN TAKES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO COURT OVER NIKAB BAN
> 
> cireport.ca
> 18 October 2014
> 
> Ex-immigration minister Jason Kenney ‘dictated’ niqab ban at citizenship ceremony, court told
> 
> A ban on veils while taking the citizenship oath was driven by Kenney’s own ideology, say lawyers for Zunera Ishaq, who is challenging the policy in court.
> The federal government introduced a new policy to ban new citizens from wearing face-covering veil during the oath taking at citizenship ceremonies like this one in Toronto.
> 
> By: Nicholas Keung Immigration reporter, Published on Fri Oct 17 2014
> 
> A Mississauga woman has taken the federal government to court over a policy that forbids wearing the face-covering veil while taking the oath of citizenship, arguing the ban breaches her Charter rights and fails to accommodate her religious beliefs and dress code.
> 
> Banning the niqab from citizenship ceremonies is the result of former immigration minister Jason Kenney imposing his own ideology of “Canadian values” on the process, Zunera Ishaq’s lawyer, Naseem Mithoowani, told federal court Justice Keith Boswell at a hearing in Toronto on Thursday.
> 
> “The true motivation of the policy is to compel Muslim women to abandon, albeit briefly, their religious adherence,” Mithoowani said.
> (…)
> 
> It’s the first such challenge against the niqab ban at citizenship ceremonies; if successful, it could strike down the policy.
> 
> In December 2011, Kenney brought in the ban in an operational manual — rather than new legislation — in a series of measurements meant to strengthen the integrity of Canadian citizenship that also included raising the pass mark for the citizenship test and stricter residency and language requirements.
> 
> “(The) cultural tradition. . . reflects a certain view about women that we don’t accept in Canada,” Kenney, now Canada’s employment minister, said then.
> (…)
> 
> Ishaq, who was not in court, started wearing the niqab at 15 and said it has become part of her identity. In 2008, she was sponsored to Canada from Pakistan by her husband.
> 
> She put her citizenship ceremony on hold in January as a result of the ban.
> 
> Ishaq said she had no issue with removing her niqab in a private setting if it is “necessary” for security or identification purposes, but felt it’s different “being seen” taking the citizenship oath in a room full of others.
> 
> Government lawyer Negar Hashemi said the case is about finding the “right balance” between respecting differences and maintaining Canadian core democratic values.
> 
> The niqab ban, she said, is part of a larger scheme to ensure everyone vows loyalty to Canada. Other non-veil-wearing candidates caught not doing so, such as elderly people with language difficulties, can also have their citizenship certificates withheld. “There is no hidden agenda in this case,” she said.
> 
> Hashemi said Ishaq did not seek accommodation prior to her scheduled citizenship ceremony and declined the offer to take her oath at the front or the back of the citizenship court after the legal action was initiated.
> 
> She noted that the applicant unveiled herself to have her driver’s licence photo taken, and the brief unveiling at a citizenship ceremony would be no different.
> 
> *“She had a choice of becoming a citizen or adhering to her religion,” said Hashemi. “Becoming a citizen is a privilege, not a right.”*
> 
> Lorne Waldman, a co-counsel for Ishaq, said the Citizenship Act does not stipulate that a candidate must be seen or heard taking the oath — something witnesses for the immigration department agreed is hard to enforce and ensure.
> 
> “This policy was dictated by the immigration minister (Kenney) that there had to be a change, and there’s no willingness to provide any accommodation,” said Waldman, adding that officials confirmed there are fewer than 100 cases a year across Canada where someone wears a niqab to the ceremony.
> 
> Everyone attending a citizenship ceremony must show their face and be identified by immigration officials, though women wearing a niqab can ask to go to a private space and unveil in front of a female officer.
> 
> While in the past these women were allowed to take the oath with face covered, Waldman said, they now must remove the scarves in public during the two minutes of oath-taking before a citizenship judge.
> 
> *“The applicant has the right to be accommodated. It’s her right to take the oath without taking off the niqab,” said Waldman.*
> 
> Justice Boswell reserved his decision.



More on LINK and more on  AM980 -- London's Breaking News Station


----------



## cryco

We should hand out jars of Vaseline to immigrants as we bend over to accommodate them. And as a good Canadian, i apologize in advance for any offence cause by my mini rant.


----------



## CougarKing

Another lunatic:

International Business Times



> *Australia's Ginger Jihadist: Sydney Teenager Abdullah Elmir Vows to Fly Black Flag Over Buckingham Palace*
> 
> IB Times
> 
> By Jack Moore | IB Times – Tue, Oct 21, 2014
> 
> A red-headed Australian jihadist has appeared in a new Isis [Islamic State] video, warning that the terror group will continue its war on the west until it flies a "black flag on top of Buckingham Palace".
> 
> Abdullah Elmir, 17, refers to himself as Abu Khaled during the video, in which he is surrounded by his fellow Islamist militants.
> 
> During the video, entitled Message Of The Mujahid 4, Elmir launches a scathing attack on the US-led coalition which is conducting airstrikes on the group's "caliphate" in northern Syria and Iraq.
> "This message I deliver to you the people of America, this message I deliver to you the people of Britain and this message I deliver especially to you the people of Australia," Elmir begins.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## George Wallace

This commentary, Answering Muslims: The Islamoblog of Acts 17 Apologetics, on the Three stages of JIHAD.


----------



## CougarKing

3 potential terrorists stopped in time...

Agence-France-Presse



> *US girls stopped in Germany, suspected of trying to join IS*
> By: Agence France-Presse
> October 23, 2014 6:46 AM
> 
> WASHINGTON DC - Three teenage American girls who were suspected of wanting to join Islamic State jihadists were sent home after they were intercepted in Germany, US media reports and officials said Wednesday.
> 
> *The three Colorado girls, of Sudanese and Somali origin, were heading for Turkey when they were stopped by German authorities at Frankfurt airport*, CNN said.
> 
> Turkey is a key point of entry for would-be jihadists looking to join Islamic State militants in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> A law enforcement official told ABC News that the girls were trying "to fulfill what they believe is some vision that has been put out on a slick media campaign" by radical groups in Syria.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Robert0288

Now whats the plan?  Return them to the US?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

As soon as they pass through security, at whatever airport, and are in the international area, suspend their passports. Let them figure the rest out for themselves. Can't go forward, can't go back. I'm betting it won't be long, living in the airport, with everyone knowing who they are, before they start making deals with whatever country is going to offer them shelter and a hot meal.


----------



## cupper

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Now whats the plan?  Return them to the US?





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> As soon as they pass through security, at whatever airport, and are in the international area, suspend their passports. Let them figure the rest out for themselves. Can't go forward, can't go back. I'm betting it won't be long, living in the airport, with everyone knowing who they are, before they start making deals with whatever country is going to offer them shelter and a hot meal.



They were stopped in Frankfurt, and have since been returned home to Colorado. No charges are expected to be laid.

*Denver Somalis fear fallout from trio's apparent bid to join militants*

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-denver-teens-20141023-story.html



> Authorities say two sisters, ages 15 and 17, of Somali descent and a third girl, 16, from Sudan were reported missing Friday and were stopped by officials at the airport in Frankfurt, Germany. They had apparently lied to their parents about their whereabouts and stole $2,000 to finance the trip.
> 
> The girls even tweeted their plans to friends at school, who either warned them against going or wished them well, according to the Denver Post. The teens have returned to Denver and will not face local charges, according to a spokesman for the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Office. The FBI is investigating but would not comment on the possibility of federal charges.
> 
> "They were all underage, and fortunately we were able to assist in finding them," said a senior FBI official, speaking to the Los Angeles Times on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing. "We're not sure yet who was influencing whom, or why. But they are all safe."
> 
> A sheriff's deputy who went to check on the Somali sisters at their home Monday found them asleep in their bedroom. Their mother woke them up to speak to the deputy, a sheriff's office report said.
> 
> I don't think the girls were doing it because they hate America.... They were taken in by ISIS propaganda.
> - Rafael Vorvor, referring to three Denver teenagers who traveled to Germany
> "I asked them why they went to Germany, and they said, 'Family,' and would not elaborate on any other details about their trip," the deputy wrote in the report.
> 
> Few in their community believe the girls acted alone. Tustin Amole, a spokesman for the Cherry Creek School District, told the Associated Press that at least one of the girls was communicating with someone online encouraging them to go to Syria.
> 
> "They were young and ignorant," Mohammed said. "How do teenagers get aboard international flights alone? This was a process.
> 
> "Listen to me, Somalis love talking about politics," he said. "They never stop.
> 
> "I worry that these kids hear their parents talking about ISIS and take it seriously," he said, using an acronym for Islamic State.



More at the link.


----------



## a_majoor

I wonder what those girls actually expected if/when they arrived in the "Caliphate". I hope they understood they would become sex slaves for various ISIS fighters. On that note, here is an article about what some people think is the driving force behind this sort of "self radicalization", and perhaps a means to stop it:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/22/na1023-tb-radicalization/



> *Radicalized young people feel like ‘a speck of dust in an uncaring universe’ before joining extremists like ISIS*
> 
> Tom Blackwell | October 22, 2014 7:57 PM ET
> More from Tom Blackwell | @tomblackwellNP
> 
> They are as perplexing as their acts are violent and shocking: young people born and bred in the relative comfort of a prosperous Western society who adopt a brutal, extreme and foreign ideology.
> 
> 
> Andrew Coyne: We can’t stop every terror attack, so let’s brace ourselves and adapt
> 
> 
> How easy it is. How easy it was. How terribly, ineluctably easy.
> 
> Since September 11, 2001, authorities across the West have been bracing themselves for the second act, the big kill, the spectacular slaughter of hundreds or even thousands at a time. And though many attempts have been made, they have by and large been successfully intercepted. The worst terrorist attack on Western soil since then was the London Transport bombings of 2005, which killed 56.
> 
> That threat remains. But in the interim it has been joined by a new threat. Not the macro-terrorism of our worst nightmares, carefully staged bits of Grand Guignol involving hijacked planes or dirty bombs or what have you — the kind that require money and planning and the coordinated movements of a number of accomplices over many months — but micro-terrorism: a couple of “lone wolves,” maybe even one, with no similar ambition or sophistication, but also less exposure to detection.
> 
> We have just seen how effective it can be.
> 
> If true, it would amplify difficult questions about how such violent zealots are created — and what can be done to stop them before they strike out.
> 
> What’s known about homegrown terrorists is muddy. Evidence suggests they are no more likely to have psychiatric problems than others, but seem to be searching for some kind of personal meaning, or a morbid brand of immortality or, simply, adventure, various experts say.
> 
> And the most difficult to comprehend — Canadians who convert first to Islam and then to extremism — are likely targeted by recruiters for groups like ISIS, said Muhammad Robert Heft, a convert himself whose group P4E tries to defuse radicals.
> 
> “New Muslims are like sponges, they take in all this information so quickly, so they can get confused really easily,” he said. “And they’re not culturally set in their ways so they’re easier to work on. They’re more susceptible to these recruiters.”
> 
> Dozens of Canadian extremists are believed already overseas fighting with Islamist extremist groups like ISIS or Somalia’s Al-Shabab and another 90 have been identified by the RCMP and CSIS as eager to join them. Martin Couture Rouleau, shot dead after running over two Quebec soldiers Monday and killing one of them, was on the list. The man behind Wednesday’s shooting of a sentry at Ottawa’s War Memorial and armed assault on the Parliament Buildings has been identified as Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, also reportedly among the “high-risk travellers” identified by police.
> 
> And yet even when suspects come to light, officers say there is only so much they can do to prevent violent behaviour in someone who has committed no crime. They had visited Mr. Rouleau on Oct. 9, leaving convinced that he was moving away from extremism and unable to take other action.
> 
> One exception was Mohamed Hersi, a 28-year-old immigrant from Somalia sentenced in a Toronto court to 10 years in prison in July for attempting to join a terrorist group. In that case, an undercover officer was able to record incriminating statements.
> 
> The answer for others may lie, not so much with visits from police, but with engagement by religious peers and leaders — before the homegrown radical becomes a homegrown terrorist, some experts say.
> 
> “So far, we’ve been very reactive, as opposed to preventive,” says Joceyln Belanger, a psychologist and expert on radicalization at University of Quebec at Montreal. “We have to ensure that members of our community are well integrated.”
> 
> Mr. Heft said he has managed to turn around many of the youth he works with, saying his personal background makes him better equipped to challenge the beliefs of misguided young extremists than imams, symbolic leaders who can be “clueless” about what drives radicalized youth.
> 
> Encounters with police and intelligence agencies, on the other hand, only encourage their warped sense of victimhood and identity with terrorists, he said.
> 
> 
> Related
> 'I'm crying for victims, not for my son': Mother of suspected Ottawa gunman gives condolences
> What we know about Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the accused Ottawa gunman: A Quebec man with a criminal past
> Kevin Vickers used to play cops and robbers as a child — Wednesday, he took out a killer
> Soldier Nathan Cirillo died standing guard over one of his own
> .
> A new program being developed by the York Region Police near Toronto seems promising, Mr. Heft said. The force is actively involving the myriad ethnic and religious groups in its community to help head off radicalization, said Insp. Ricky Veerappan.
> 
> But what motivates a Canadian — born Muslim or otherwise — to adopt a lifestyle that seems not only reprehensible, but so alien to the prevailing culture?
> 
> At the University of Waterloo, sociologist Lorne Dawson is embarking on a study of homegrown radicals he hopes will fill in some of the gaps.
> 
> What little evidence exists now indicates terrorists generally are no more likely to suffer from psychological problems than the general population, he said. As for the homegrown variety, some are second-generation immigrants struggling to find a place between their parents’ culture and Canadian society. Adhering to a dogmatic ideology might give them the direction they seek, said Prof. Dawson, noting that not all young people are craving freedom.
> 
> In fact, “there is a whole group to whom that is totally perplexing and frustrating,” he said. “They don’t want that. They want structure and order. They want a clear vision.”
> 
> Research that Prof. Bélanger and colleagues have done with Tamil Tigers and extremists in Jordan and the Philippines point to a single, overarching motivation, what the academics call the “quest for personal significance,” leading them to join a community they believe gives their lives meaning, and adopting its ideology in an effort to be accepted.
> 
> “When, for instance, [they feel they are] not important, they don’t matter, they are a speck of dust in some kind of uncaring universe, it increases psychological pain,” he said. “One way of assuaging this negative feeling is connecting through a group.”
> 
> That connection might occur in person or, in the case of “lone-wolf” radicals, through online correspondence with an extremist overseas, like ISIS members who have posted propaganda videos on the Internet, said Prof. Belanger. Once hooked, the home-grown radical may be willing to sacrifice his own life – as well as take others’ – thinking “they will have more in death than they had in life.”
> 
> Mr. Heft has observed what seems like a similar phenomenon. The radicalized youth he encounters often seem dissatisfied with their existences, he said.
> 
> “These are not sacrificing anything for Allah … they’re sacrificing for attention,” said Mr. Heft. “They’re not happy with their lives. They’re not doing what they want to do. A lot of them are depressed. A lot of them are doing this as an indirect suicide.”


----------



## Edward Campbell

And another one bites the dust.  :nod:


----------



## CougarKing

...while another one slips through...like weeds that keep on growing no matter how many times you cut them.

CBC



> *Another Canadian jihadi slips through the cracks*
> 
> CBC – 8 hours ago
> 
> Yet another young Canadian has managed to get away to Syria to fulfil his aim of waging jihad and has boasted of his exploits online, an investigation by Radio-Canada's investigative program Enquête has found.
> 
> This comes after news emerged that Martin Couture-Rouleau and Michael Zehaf-Bibeau — two men involved in the killings of two soldiers that shocked the country this week — had been blocked from leaving Canada over fears they planned to travel to the Middle East to join militant groups.
> 
> But an investigation by Enquête found that a young Montrealer named Sami did make the journey to Syria. His story was featured in a special edition of the CBC’sthe fifth estate Friday.
> 
> Enquête journalists began following the journey of Sami, whose last name is being withheld, with the help of the young man himself — via his active online presence.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## OldSolduer

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> ...while another one slips through...like weeds that keep on growing no matter how many times you cut them.
> 
> CBC



Ideology cannot be killed. Even now we have Nazis in the mix, and Communists despite the fact that both ideologies are crap.

Mix Islam into a jihadist ideology, toss in a little mental illness/issues........


----------



## Edward Campbell

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Ideology cannot be killed. Even now we have Nazis in the mix, and Communists despite the fact that both ideologies are crap.
> 
> Mix Islam into a jihadist ideology, toss in a little mental illness/issues........




+300, Jim

That's exactly right. I despise Neo-Nazis with every fibre of my being ... they are the scum of the earth; they have no right to live ... I would happily pull the lever to hang each and every one, but there they are and my own, _personal _values oblige me to defend their right to speak and act as they do, so long as they remain within the law.

I hate communists, too, because they are, all, without exception, *terminally* f__'ng stupid, and they, too, ought to be euthanized so that they cannot teach in our schools or universities.

_Jihadis_ ... only modestly horrid, by comparison. We can, and should, _interdict_ them, by whatever means are at hand. But _jihadis_ are no more representative of Islam than the Westboro Baptist Church is of Christianity.

Sorry Edward, I hit Modify instead of quote.


----------



## Kat Stevens

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> ...while another one slips through...like weeds that keep on growing no matter how many times you cut them.
> 
> CBC



I can't believe the media is withholding this douche nozzles name.  To what end, protect the innocent?  That ship sailed along with his islamofascist ass.  as to him being in Syria?  Good, give him every opportunity to die for his beliefs over there rather than here, now cancel his passport and post his picture in every CIS booth in every airport in Canada so he has no chance of getting back in.


----------



## cryco

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> +300, Jim
> 
> That's exactly right. I despise Neo-Nazis with every fibre of my being ... they are the scum of the earth; they have no right to live ... I would happily pull the lever to hang each and every one, but there they are and my own, _personal _values oblige me to defend their right to speak and act as they do, so long as they remain within the law.
> 
> I hate communists, too, because they are, all, without exception, *terminally* f__'ng stupid, and they, too, ought to be euthanized so that they cannot teach in our schools or universities.
> 
> _Jihadis_ ... only modestly horrid, by comparison. We can, and should, _interdict_ them, by whatever means are at hand. But _jihadis_ are no more representative of Islam than the Westboro Baptist Church is of Christianity.



I get the impression you may not like commies.
You wouldn't want to take a vacation in Greece at my mom's place of birth. They used to exile communists there in the mid 1900s, so imagine what happens to the following generations.


----------



## Edward Campbell

cryco said:
			
		

> I get the impression you may not like commies.
> You wouldn't want to take a vacation in Greece at my mom's place of birth. They used to exile communists there in the mid 1900s, so imagine what happens to the following generations.




 :nod:

I'm sure there are some quite lovely communists ... in fact, several decades ago, I seem to recall sleeping with one of them; one, I hasten to add, of the young, female persuasion with shaved legs, etc.

It, _communism_, in both theory and practice, is, on its face, nonsensical and I cannot understand how anyone could be taken in by it ... because it is, on a grand scale, nothing but a Ponzi scheme.

But (there's always a 'but,' isn't there?) Zhou Enlai, a man I much admire in many ways, was, despite his very real concerns about the _economics_ of communism, a committed communist because he believed that Russian style, Leninist communism was the only way that China could be moved, quickly, into the modern, scientific/industrial/technological age. We know that he argued against many established communist dogmas, like collective farms, for example, because he feared, correctly, that those communist practices would do much more harm than good, but he still supported Mao's version of Leninism and, within in - perhaps, some historians argue because of it - he made quiet monumental changes to many, many aspects of Chinese life, changes that appear to be permanent.


----------



## Jed

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> +300, Jim
> 
> That's exactly right. I despise Neo-Nazis with every fibre of my being ... they are the scum of the earth; they have no right to live ... I would happily pull the lever to hang each and every one, but there they are and my own, _personal _values oblige me to defend their right to speak and act as they do, so long as they remain within the law.
> 
> I hate communists, too, because they are, all, without exception, *terminally* f__'ng stupid, and they, too, ought to be euthanized so that they cannot teach in our schools or universities.
> 
> _Jihadis_ ... only modestly horrid, by comparison. We can, and should, _interdict_ them, by whatever means are at hand. But _jihadis_ are no more representative of Islam than the Westboro Baptist Church is of Christianity.



ERC at your finest. ;-) Expertly expressing my identical opinion. I also liked your follow on communist ideology revelations.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> +300, Jim
> 
> That's exactly right. I despise Neo-Nazis with every fibre of my being ... they are the scum of the earth; they have no right to live ... I would happily pull the lever to hang each and every one, but there they are and my own, _personal _values oblige me to defend their right to speak and act as they do, so long as they remain within the law.
> 
> I hate communists, too, because they are, all, without exception, *terminally* f__'ng stupid, and they, too, ought to be euthanized so that they cannot teach in our schools or universities.
> 
> _Jihadis_ ... only modestly horrid, by comparison. We can, and should, _interdict_ them, by whatever means are at hand. But _jihadis_ are no more representative of Islam than the Westboro Baptist Church is of Christianity.



[tangent]

Edward, I know what your saying but I've seen similar to this a couple of times, recently, on the forums. While not denying the intrinsic nature between the two, I have some trouble equating the two.

The WBC does not number in the thousands. They are basically one family with a few hangers on. They do not go around kidnapping and beheading people. Yes, they're a pain in the ass, but are protected by the Bill of Rights and the American Constitution. They break no laws. They're just unpalatable, brainwashed idiots who are more of a danger to themselves than any outside influence. They have been effectively countered in the past by other good hearted citizens using the same protections of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. 

The similarity ends with them being, intolerant, ignorant, homophobic bigots.[/tangent]


----------



## Cloud Cover

Without communists, the CAF would not have survived Pierre Trudeau's confusions. 

With ISIS, the CAF may not survive the governments delusions. 

Without ISIS, the CAF may not survive the governments illusions. 

War is always now. Only that much is clear.


----------



## OldSolduer

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Without communists, the CAF would not have survived Pierre Trudeau's confusions.
> 
> With ISIS, the CAF may not survive the governments delusions.
> 
> Without ISIS, the CAF may not survive the governments illusions.
> 
> War is always now. Only that much is clear.



I can be a bit dense at times.....please clarify what you are saying.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A 30-year-old assault-rifle collector from Pakistan has been arrested on allegations that he is a terrorist threat to Canada. The Ontario resident is in jail, charged under immigration laws that would allow him to be deported, just one year after he avoided prison on different charges.
> 
> The new case shows how the Canadian government’s approach to suspected extremists may be evolving – rapidly – since two soldiers were killed last week in attacks the government has called terrorism.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Muhammad Aqeeq Ansari, a Karachi-born software designer who has lived in Ontario for several years, was arrested on Oct. 27. His lawyer said on Wednesday in an interview he is charged under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act with being a danger to the security of Canada.
> 
> He said federal officials allege Mr. Ansari has ties to terrorists in Pakistan, that he had amassed “a small arsenal” of guns; and that he has expressed extreme opinions on Twitter.
> 
> Under Canadian law, less evidence is required to deport someone than to send them to prison.
> 
> “This is the easiest way of squeezing somebody,” said Anser Farooq, a Mississauga-based lawyer who has defended clients accused of terrorism offences ....


_Globe & Mail_, 30 Oct 14
Now, what to do about the homegrowns?


----------



## Kirkhill

recceguy said:
			
		

> [tangent]
> 
> Edward, I know what your saying but I've seen similar to this a couple of times, recently, on the forums. While not denying the intrinsic nature between the two, I have some trouble equating the two.
> 
> The WBC does not number in the thousands. They are basically one family with a few hangers on. They do not go around kidnapping and beheading people. Yes, they're a pain in the ass, but are protected by the Bill of Rights and the American Constitution. They break no laws. They're just unpalatable, brainwashed idiots who are more of a danger to themselves than any outside influence. They have been effectively countered in the past by other good hearted citizens using the same protections of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
> 
> The similarity ends with them being, intolerant, ignorant, homophobic bigots.[/tangent]



Unfortunately terminal stupidity is not a crime, except in the Darwinian sense.  

Now if that terminal stupidity ends up with your fist in my face, or my family's face, or my friend's face, or my contractually obligated other's face, or my morally obligated other's face.... then that is a capital crime.


----------



## CougarKing

The example highlighted below should only emphasize why it's more prudent for EU member nations to cancel the passports of their citizens who joined ISIS...

Military.com



> *NATO: ISIS Fighters Pose 'Lone Wolf' Threat to Europe*
> 
> Nov 04, 2014 | by Richard Sisk
> 
> NATO's commander said Monday that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) poses a threat to the alliance and Europe along with the Mideast.
> 
> "ISIS is a dual problem to us," Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove said. "First of all, it's a problem along our allies' border in Turkey. Second of all, it is a problem because the foreign fighters generated there come back to Europe."
> 
> At a Pentagon news conference, Breedlove, the commander of NATO and the U.S. European Command, pointed to the case of alleged ISIS fighter Mehdi Nemmouche.
> 
> *Last May, Nemmouche, a French citizen, allegedly made his way back to Europe from the Syrian battlefield, walked into a Jewish museum in Belgium, and killed four people.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## George Wallace

While we enjoy our freedoms in our democratic society, with our Charter of Human Rights, we are also enabling our enemies while frustrating our own efforts to protect those same freedoms.  We are not a Police State, but we have gone out of our way to hamper our Police and Security Services in the performance of their duties, as well as enabled Human Rights lawyers to manipulate our legal system, not for the betterment of our society, but for their own egos in winning their cases.

Here is a case that illustrates the frustrations we face, even when evidence presented clearly points at a foreigner in our mists (NOT a Canadian Citizen) who has anti-Canadian and anti-Western beliefs:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> ‘Active participating member’ of Pakistani terror group recorded in Canada saying he was on ‘military mission’
> 
> Stewart Bell
> The National Post
> Friday, Nov. 7, 2014
> 
> TORONTO — An “active participating member” of a Pakistani terrorist organization was recorded at a Toronto mosque saying he hated Canada and had been sent here on a “military mission,” an immigration official alleged at a hearing Friday.
> 
> During the arrest of Mohammed Aqeeq Ansari police seized an electronic device containing an audio file in which he said he was “sent back to Canada from Pakistan on a military mission he can’t speak of,” the Canada Border Services Agency said.
> 
> “Mr. Ansari also professes his hatred of Canada and the United States,” CBSA officer Jessica Lourenco told the Immigration and Refugee Board, outlining the results of Project Seashell, an investigation by the RCMP’s Integrated National Security Enforcement Team.
> 
> A 30-year-old Pakistani citizen who immigrated to Canada in 2007, Mr. Ansari returned to Canada on April 12 following five-weeks in Pakistan, but it was unclear when the comments in question were recorded or at which Toronto mosque.
> 
> He was arrested by the RCMP Immigration Task Force on Oct. 27, just days after two fatal attacks against Canadian Forces members in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec and Ottawa by men espousing Islamist extremist views.
> 
> The former Bank of Montreal employee, also known as “Usman Ahmed,” has not been charged with any crimes, but immigration officials are preparing to revoke his permanent residence and deport him due to his alleged involvement in Ahle-Sunnat Wal Jamaat.
> 
> Mr. Ansari created and maintained the group’s official media website,Ahnafmedia.com. He also operated a PayPal account that accepted contributions for the militant group, the CBSA said, calling him an “integral member.”
> 
> His online writings suggest an “extremist mindset,” the CBSA said. “We are the Muslims and we are coming for you,” he wrote in a 2004 online post. He had also posted a photo of Toronto’s Scotia tower with the comment, “If I only had a plane.”
> 
> At Friday’s hearing, which was to decide whether to release Mr. Ansari from custody while the CBSA investigation continues, his lawyer Anser Farooq noted police had chosen not to charge him with terrorism due to what they called “strategic considerations.” He speculated police may have been grooming his client to become an informant.
> 
> But IRB Member Iris Kohler declined to release Mr. Ansari. “All of these things taken cumulatively, looked at together, do lead me to believe on a balance of probabilities that Mr. Ansari is in fact a danger to the public,” she said.
> 
> His detention will be reviewed again on Dec. 3.
> 
> Outside the hearing room, Mr. Farooq said if Mr. Ansari was really a danger, he should be charged with a crime rather than deported. “If he is what you say he is, you’re going to send him abroad so he causes more problems?”
> 
> He said the allegation Mr. Ansari had acknowledged being sent to Canada on a military mission was based on an audio recording cited in an RCMP report. But he questioned whether it was true or had been taken out of context.
> 
> From his detention centre in Lindsay, Ont., Mr. Ansari watched the proceedings largely without speaking. He came to the attention of counter-terrorism police in 2012, when he was charged with 21 firearms offences over a stockpile of weapons he kept in Peterborough, Ont.
> 
> While he received a conditional discharge, he was placed under a separate investigation over his alleged ties to extremism after a police search found a memory storage device containing extremist materials linking him to the ASWJ in Pakistan.
> 
> The group has been blamed for attacks on journalists and minority religious groups, and is affiliated with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which Canada has outlawed as “one of the most violent Islamist extremist organizations in Pakistan.”
> 
> In January 2013, Mr. Ansari was arrested once again, this time for trying to destroy newspapers for Ahmadiyyah Muslims, a minority branded heretics by Sunnis and often subjected to violence at the hands of extremists. The edition of the paper he had taken from a Toronto-area shop featured articles critical of Sunni extremists and the ASWJ.
> 
> According to the CBSA, Mr. Ansari was seen at a shooting range 300 kilometres from his home. Police noted he had driven there “in a manner consistent with somebody trying to counter police surveillance.”
> 
> Countered Mr. Farooq: “If you want to get at the truth charge him and have ti dealt with in criminal courts. … How does it benefit Canada to deport someone alleged to be a terrorist? If it’s true, he cannot be rehabilitated after being thrown out of Canada.”
> 
> National Post



More on LINK.


----------



## Robert0288

Why would we charge him and keep him in a jail here where Canadians are now on the hook for rehabilitating him, when instead he is inadmissible into Canada under A34 of IRPA? You deport the guy back to Pakistan and share that information with the rest of the western world.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another turd floats to the surface of the poo pond.  Shared under the fair dealings provisions.



> John Maguire, Ottawa man fighting for ISIS, appears in online video
> 
> Identified as Abu Anwar al-Canadi, Maguire calls for lone-wolf attacks in Canada
> 
> CBC News Posted: Dec 07, 2014 2:33 PM ET| Last Updated: Dec 07, 2014 3:17 PM ET
> 
> 
> ISIS has released a video featuring an Ottawa man calling on his fellow Muslim countrymen to carry out lone-wolf attacks on Canadian targets.
> 
> John Maguire, who was already reportedly under investigation by the RCMP after travelling to Syria to join ISIS as a foreign fighter in January 2013, appears in the six-minute, 13-second video. He is identified in the video as Abu Anwar al-Canadi and speaks in English.
> 
> Standing in the ruins of an unidentified area, Abu Anwar warns Canadians that the country's participation in the U.S.-led coalition fighting the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria group will lead to revenge attacks.
> 
> He urges his Muslim countrymen to follow the example of Martin Couture-Rouleau, who killed warrant officer Patrice Vincent and injured another soldier when he ran them down with a car in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que., in October.
> 
> The video also references Michael Zehaf-Bibeau's October attack in which he killed an honour guard at the National War Memorial in Ottawa before storming Parliament Hill.
> 
> Abu Anwar does not appear to be under duress. CBC News does not know if he made the statement of his own free will.
> 
> Safety minister responds
> 
> Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney, in response to "the recent threat toward Canada," said in a statement on Sunday that Canadians must remain vigilant.
> 
> "That is why we are taking part in the coalition that is currently conducting air strikes against ISIL [ISIS], and supporting the security forces in Iraq in their fight against this terrorist scourge," he said. "It is also the reason that we are working very determinedly to strengthen the tools available to the police and intelligence community to better protect us."
> 
> The video was produced by ISIS's al-l'tisaam Media Foundation and distributed on Twitter and jihadi forums on Sunday, according to SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors militant sites.
> 
> In previous online statements, Abu Anwar says he is going to have the "reward of jihad" and "the opportunity for martyrdom." He refers to Canada as "evil."
> 
> The National Post reported in August 2014 that the RCMP questioned his family and friends and confirmed he had travelled to Syria "on a one-way ticket."
> With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## George Wallace

This video by John Maguire is an example of how perverted some can become in their beliefs.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> John Maguire, an ISIS fighter from Ottawa, appears on video warning Canada of attacks ‘where it hurts you the most’
> The National Post
> Stewart Bell | December 7, 2014 | Last Updated: Dec 7 6:44 PM ET
> More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP
> 
> ISIS attempted to incite further attacks against Canadians on Sunday, issuing a propaganda video in which an Ottawa extremist scolded the government for joining the international military coalition fighting the terrorist group.
> 
> The six-minute video said Canadians would be indiscriminately targeted and that Muslims were obliged to either join ISIS or “follow the example” of the attackers who struck in Ottawa and Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que.
> 
> “You either pack your bags, or prepare your explosive devices. You either purchase your airline ticket, or you sharpen your knife,” said the video, produced by a propaganda group linked to the Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham.
> 
> The speaker identified himself as Abu Anwar al-Canadi, but five former friends said they recognized him as John Maguire, a University of Ottawa dropout who converted to Islam and became radicalized before vanishing last year.
> 
> “To think a person who I used to stand next to in prayer three years ago would turn out like this is unbelievable,” a former university acquaintance, who disagreed with Mr. Maguire’s extremist views, said after watching the video.
> 
> Looking gaunt and sounding alien to those who knew him in Canada, he spoke in English and seemed to read from a script. The camera shots appeared to be staged to show ruined buildings and a mosque dome in the background.
> 
> The video is part of a propaganda push by ISIS that appears designed to attract recruits and use the threat of terrorism to deter the U.S.-led air campaign that has killed hundreds of fighters and, according to military officials, stalled the group’s advance.
> 
> “It follows quite closely to the theme of a variety of videos aimed at Western audiences, like the video aimed at French Muslims a few weeks ago,” said Professor Amarnath Amarasingam of the Dalhousie University Resilience Research Centre, who is studying Canadian foreign fighters.
> 
> “The interrelated themes are of course ones of religious obligation: if a caliphate has been established and Muslims have been persecuted by the state you are living in, you are required to leave the state you are living in. The risk of staying is hellfire. Maguire’s video is similar to the video aimed at French Muslims, asking a simple question: what are you waiting for?”
> 
> The video refers repeatedly to the October killings of two Canadian Forces members in Quebec and Ottawa by men who had adopted Islamist extremist beliefs. It said the attacks were a “direct response” to Canada’s military role in Iraq.
> 
> “The more bombs you drop on our people, the more Muslims will realize and understand that today, waging jihad against the West and its allies around the world is beyond a shadow of the doubt a religious obligation binding upon every Muslim.”
> 
> Responding to the video, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said terrorism remained a serious threat to Canadians. “That is why we are taking part in the coalition that is currently conducting air strikes against ISIL [another acronym for ISIS], and supporting the security forces in Iraq in their fight against this terrorist scourge.”
> 
> Canada has sent six CF-18s to Kuwait to participate in air strikes against ISIS, which is trying to impose its militant ideology on Syrians and Iraqis through a brutal campaign of atrocities ranging from mass executions and ethnic cleansing to forced conversions and enslaving members of minority faiths.
> 
> Originally from Kemptville, Ont., Mr. Maguire, 24, who changed his name to “Yahya” after converting to Islam, is one of the dozens of Canadians believed to have joined extremist groups in Iraq and Syria. Since the attacks in Quebec and Ottawa, the government has proposed new legislation to better track Canadians who go abroad to participate in terrorism.
> 
> Posted onto Twitter and jihadi Web forums, the video said Canada was “waging war” against Muslims, according to a transcript distributed by the SITE Intelligence Group. “So it should not surprise you when operations by the Muslims are executed where it hurts you the most — on your very own soil — in retaliation to your unprovoked acts of aggression towards our people,” it said.
> 
> “You have absolutely no right to live in a state of safety and security when your country is carrying out atrocities on our people,” it added. “Your people will be indiscriminately targeted as you indiscriminately target our people.”
> 
> But the ISIS message has found little support in Canada. Although it has attracted recruits, as well as young women wanting to become jihadist brides, Canada’s major Muslim organizations have denounced the terror group.
> 
> At school, Mr. Maguire had dreamed of making the NHL and played bass in a punk band, but his family said he was raised in an abusive household and eventually moved in with his grandparents. After he disappeared from Ottawa, the RCMP told his mother he was in Syria and had traveled on a one-way ticket.
> 
> “I was one of you. I was a typical Canadian. I grew up on the hockey rink and spent my teenage years on stage playing guitar,” the video narrator said. “I had no criminal record. I was a bright student and maintained a strong GPA in university. So how could one of your people end up in my place? And why is it that your own people are the ones turning against you at home? The answer is that we have accepted the true call of the prophets and messengers of God.”
> 
> National Post, with files from Sarah Boesveld



Video and more on LINK.




Related
Extremist named John Maguire: Ottawa student likely joined ISIS after converting to Islam and moving to Syria


----------



## The Bread Guy

National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM) news release:


> Following the release of a video message attributed to ISIS, the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), a prominent Muslim civil liberties & advocacy organization, reiterates that Canadian Muslims categorically condemn the terror group’s calls for violence against Canada and other nations.
> 
> “Canadian Muslims continue to unequivocally denounce and reject these abhorrent and un-Islamic threats by ISIS against our nation and fellow citizens. We condemn the depraved violence and extremism exhibited by this and other terror groups. Nothing can justify such actions,” says NCCM Executive Director Ihsaan Gardee.
> 
> “We emphasize the sacredness of life and repudiate any express statement or tacit insinuation that anyone should harm innocent people. Our message to anyone who espouses, endorses, or in any way supports this ideology of violence, is that your actions have nothing to do with the authentic teachings of Islam.
> 
> “It is both a civic and religious duty to contact the authorities if one has any information about plans to hurt or harm anyone,” says Gardee.
> 
> “This message is heavy on rhetoric but very low on substance,” adds Imam Sikander Hashmi, a spokesperson for the Canadian Council of Imams, as well as the Council of Imams of Ottawa-Gatineau. “The attempt to justify attacks against innocent people is deeply misguided and unsupported by Islamic principles.
> 
> “The fact that the overwhelming majority of Islamic scholars and leaders, from nearly all denominations – in Canada and around the world – are united in their opposition to ISIS and its vicious ideology is quite remarkable and very telling. We will continue to condemn radicalization towards extremist violence while offering sound and authentic Islamic knowledge to Canadian Muslims,” says Hashmi.
> 
> The NCCM has denounced previous threats against Canadians by ISIS. Following the Ottawa shootings in October, the NCCM coordinated a public statement at the National War Memorial by dozens of Muslim organizations condemning the attacks.  In July 2005, the NCCM organized a national statement by over 120 Canadian Imams which condemned terrorism and religious extremism.
> 
> In September, the Islamic Social Services Association, in conjunction with the NCCM, launched the handbook United Against Terrorism which is designed to give communities information and tools to counter radicalization towards violent extremism and build civic engagement.
> 
> The NCCM is an independent, non-partisan and non-profit grassroots advocacy organization. It is a leading voice for Muslim civic engagement and the promotion of human rights.



More from CTV News here


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting link, finds several Taliban Websites hosted on a Vancouver server (This has been mentioned before.).

https://ibrabo.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/taliban-sites-hosted-on-vancouver-server-2012-ibrabo.png

Diagram with other information found on: http://ibrabo.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting link, finds several Taliban Websites hosted on a Vancouver server (This has been mentioned before.).
> 
> https://ibrabo.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/taliban-sites-hosted-on-vancouver-server-2012-ibrabo.png
> 
> Diagram with other information found on: http://ibrabo.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/


Some time ago, but not anymore - most hosted in U.S. (ShahamAt-English.com, AleMara1.org, ShahamAt-Arabic.com, etc.), with some in Turkey or Romania.


----------



## a_majoor

While we mostly think of radical Islam, radicalism drives radicalism elsewhere as well, and I suspect *we* might start seeing spillover effects here. The conflict between the Sikhs and the Indian State in the 1980's eventually exploded in Canada with disastrous effects (Air India bombing), so there is no reason to think that other equally esoteric conflicts won't raise themselves here:

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/01/01/asian-buddhists-get-militant/



> *God Wars*
> Asian Buddhists Get Militant
> 
> Feeling threatened by Hindu India, Communist China and Islam, Buddhists in south and southeast Asia are starting to develop a militancy of their own. Groups like the Buddhist Power Force (Bodu Bala Sena, or BBS) in Sri Lanka and 969 in Myanmar have become increasingly radicalized. They give voice to anti-Muslim sentiment that some think has inspired violence, like the anti-Muslim attacks in Sri Lanka in June that left three dead. According to a recent FT profile, leaders from 969 and the BBS signed a pact in September for “aimed at protecting global Buddhism.” Here’s some key text from the pact:
> 
> The Buddhist Society of the world has awoken to the ground realities of subtle incursions taking place under the guise of secular, multicultural and other liberal notions that are directly impacting on the Buddhist ethos and space. […]
> 
> The endeavor of this memorandum of understanding is to counter the growing incursions and challenges faced by the Buddhist society in both countries and also in the south and Southeast Asian region, and the dangers of its long term consequences to the country and heritage.
> 
> The FT notes that though some of this rhetoric is directed against secularism, the groups talk about Islam too. And these countries are becoming more religious—the FT cites new “Buddhist Sunday Schools” and theologically-inflected laws in Myanmar.
> 
> This won’t be the last of such surges in militancy. The 21st century was supposed to be a post-religious, post-modernist era of peaceful secularism. That now looks less and less like the world we are living in.


----------



## George Wallace

Good point.  Sikh and other Indian sects are currently conducting atrocities against each other in Northern India, which for the most part have been ignored by the MSM.  There are radicalized Hindu sects that have murdered Christians in the past few years.   There are many religious sects that have become radicalized in India, and with its population and the ease of travel, it would not be unreasonable to see their radicalized philosophies spreading outside its borders.  

Cultural beliefs, attributed to some of these faiths, have given Canada a taste of "Honour Killings".   Although not terrorist acts in themselves, they are just as much a concern.


----------



## Kat Stevens

So let's feed ISIL to the Sikhs.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I always thought that Buddhists were supposed to believe in the sanctity of life.  Ergo, would it not then go against that train of thought to become radicalized and carry out all that outrageous garbage that goes with radicalization????  How can you become "one with everything" if you're busy slapping the crap out of someone???


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While we mostly think of radical Islam, radicalism drives radicalism elsewhere as well, and I suspect *we* might start seeing spillover effects here. The conflict between the Sikhs and the Indian State in the 1980's eventually exploded in Canada with disastrous effects (Air India bombing), so there is no reason to think that other equally esoteric conflicts won't raise themselves here:
> 
> http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/01/01/asian-buddhists-get-militant/


In a variation on that theme, a bit of Indian media poking at Canada's Muslims ....


> Canada is a key ally of the United States of America in the war against terrorism in general, and ISIS in particular. In Afghanistan, Canadian forces were engaged for nearly a decade countering Al Qaeda’s threat and helping to establish Afghanistan’s return to normalcy. Canada also has been an important constituent of the Western forces combating the ISIS terrorism in Iraq and the Middle East. However, the Canadian military involvement in these Islamic majority regions has also led to a manifold rise in religious extremist leaders. In a concerning revelation, several mosques in Canada have been found to incite hatred against the Canadian government’s involvement in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Middle East, for assisting the US in killing fellow Muslims ....


----------



## a_majoor

Probably the best place for this. One of the dangers in trying to deal with radicalism is "mirroring"; seeing things through our eyes rather than theirs. Dissuading self radicalised people from heading over to join Jihadi groups like ISIS turns out to be quite a bit different than the US planners who created various PSYOPS campaigns thought; potential recruits don't want to be reminded that "someone" still has to clean the toilets.....

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-06/the-glamour-of-islamic-state



> *The Glamour of Islamic State*
> Jan 6, 2015 3:32 PM EST
> By Virginia Postrel
> 
> The Pentagon is trying to figure out why Islamic State has been so successful at attracting followers. “What makes I.S. so magnetic, inspirational?” Major General Michael Nagata, who commands U.S. special operations forces in the Middle East, asked a conference call of outside experts examining the question, according to a recent New York Times report. “They are drawing people to them in droves,” he said. “There are I.S. T-shirts and mugs.” On a later call, Nagata admitted, “I do not understand the intangible power of ISIL,” another name for the group.
> 
> Confronting Islamic State requires an exercise largely unfamiliar to the American military’s hardheaded pragmatists: thinking carefully about the elusive, seductive magic of glamour. Making that task all the more difficult, it also demands recognizing the allure of ideas and images that baffle, offend or horrify most Westerners. As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, glamour is in the mind of the audience.
> 
> Glamour is effective because it gives specific form to inchoate desires, whether for love, wealth, power, recognition, freedom, adventure or divine favor. In "The Power of Glamour" I wrote, “The desires glamour serves and intensifies are never purely physical. They are emotional.” That’s as true for a bored and angry young man contemplating jihad as it is for a harried working mother imagining a spa vacation. A glamorous image or idea offers its audience a shimmering promise of life transformed and perfected. It focuses the audience’s longings.
> 
> “What inspires the most lethal terrorists in the world today is not so much the Qur’an or religious teachings as a thrilling cause and call to action that promises glory and esteem in the eyes of friends. Jihad is an egalitarian, equal-opportunity employer: fraternal, fast-breaking, glorious and cool,” noted anthropologist Scott Atran, who studies what moves people to join jihadi organizations. With this promise of camaraderie, glory, adventure and significance, Islamic State is tapping into martial glamour, whose many incarnations are as ancient as Achilles and as American as the U.S. Marine Corps. But in this case the cause is not patriotic but religious.
> 
> Islamic State’s recruitment imagery and Internet fan posts offer a different, more contemporary and overtly violent form of glamour. Videos, magazine features and Twitter memes mirror the glamour of action movies, shooter video games and gangsta rap. They make killing look effortless, righteous and triumphant. They promise to make the jihadist feel manly and important.
> 
> Indeed, the “intangible power” of Islamic State stems from its ability to meld common, often secular forms of martial and media glamour with a compellingly utopian version of religious faith. Conventional hometown imams often have little to offer alienated young British men longing for excitement and purpose, argued Shiraz Maher, a researcher at the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation at King’s College London, compared with “the hyper-empowering appeal of IS videos, filled with balaclava-wearing boys in smocks offering the promise of making history.” The religious extremism that separates Islamic State from mainstream Muslim life is itself part of the thrill. “Those drawn towards more radical interpretations of Islam,” Maher wrote for New Statesmen, “have dismissed older members of their communities as cowards or religious sell-outs.”
> 
> The result is a 21st-century Islamic version of the medieval Christian Crusades. Islamic State promises ordinary men adventure, fellowship and religious significance if they fight infidels and heretics in a distant land.
> 
> The challenge in countering these forms of glamour is to find a way to take advantage of an essential weakness. As inspiring as glamour can be, it often dissipates with experience. That’s because all glamour contains an illusion. It hides anything that might break the spell: flaws, distractions, hardship, tedium. Dispelling glamour, then, requires revealing the truth. But deliberately puncturing glamour can be harder than it sounds. (Consider the never-ending, largely futile denunciations of fashion and beauty imagery.) You have to understand not only the illusion but also why it appeals to its audience.
> 
> The State Department failed to do that with anti-Islamic State propaganda launched as part of its ongoing “Think Again Turn Away” campaign. It rightly drew widespread criticism with its ham-handed effort to horrify potential recruits with video imagery of crucified Muslims and a mosque suicide bombing. The “Welcome to the 'Islamic State' land” video ignored its purported audience’s motivations and beliefs. Islamic State doesn’t hide its brutal intolerance of Muslims who deviate from its notion of the true faith. A radical claim to purist authenticity -- an ideal Islam violently purged of culture, history and variation -- is in fact central to its appeal. The State Department video might scare recruits’ parents, but it would do little to deter their alienated sons.
> 
> Making Islamic State look fearsome and successful -- countering its glamour with horror -- only serves to heighten the movement’s allure. To dissuade potential recruits, something more banal is required. What glamorous visions of jihadi glory obscure isn’t violence. *It’s drudgery, subordination, infighting, hypocrisy and general messiness. “The reality on the ground is a world away from the glamour of well-produced recruitment videos,” wrote Maher, noting complaints about boredom and guard duty.
> 
> “I’ve basically done nothing except hand out clothes and food,” a French volunteer in Aleppo complained in a letter home, as reported by Le Figaro. “I also help clean weapons and transport dead bodies from the front.” Another griped, “I’m sick of it. They make me do the washing-up.” An Indian recruit named Arif Majeed returned to Mumbai after six months with Islamic State, reportedly complaining to Indian authorities that he’d been given such menial jobs as fetching water and cleaning toilets when he wanted to fight. So much for glamour.*
> 
> Emphasizing Islamic State’s brutality may rally mainstream domestic audiences, but it won’t destroy the group’s glamour in the eyes of potential recruits. For that, we need more stories about menial chores, less publicity that turns terrorists into celebrities and, most essentially, battlefield evidence that effortless victory is an illusion -- Islamic State is for losers.
> 
> To contact the author on this story:
> Virginia Postrel at vpostrel@bloomberg.net
> 
> To contact the editor on this story:
> Zara Kessler at zkessler@bloomberg.net


----------



## OldSolduer

Maybe we should hire the guy that played Borat....Sacha Baren Cohen ...to out out a video of an 
ISIS fighter doing the menial jobs and living in squalor.


----------



## George Wallace

Seems we have a problem Huston.  Question is: Do you want 'Freedom of Speech' or do you want to squash it?   Seems this iman wants his cake and eat it too.  

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Satirical depictions of religious leaders should be illegal, says Ottawa imam
> 
> Meghan Hurley, Postmedia News | January 9, 2015 9:07 AM ET
> More from Postmedia News
> 
> An Ottawa imam has denounced the terrorist attack on a Paris weekly newspaper that killed 12 people, but he says satirical cartoons of religious leaders should be illegal.
> 
> Imtiaz Ahmed, an imam with the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, said it should be against the law to publish cartoons that depict religious figures in a derogatory way.
> 
> “Of course we defend freedom of speech, but it has to be balanced. There has to be a limit. There has to be a code of conduct,” Ahmed said.
> 
> “We believe that any kind of vulgar expression about any sacred person of any religion does not constitute the freedom of speech in any way at all.”
> 
> 
> Ahmed said there should be limits placed on freedom of speech to prevent the publication of offensive material. He says that seems to be the case for events such as the Holocaust. Members of the public denounce those who say the Holocaust never happened.
> 
> “We don’t want the Jewish community to be hurt by these sentiments,” Ahmed says.
> 
> Ahmed said the work of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which has been threatened for its caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, is offensive and based on lies that have “hijacked the religion of Islam.”
> 
> Instead of looking at the few “disturbed individuals” who have committed terrorist attacks, the focus should remain on Muslims who are peaceful, Ahmed said.
> 
> The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has opposed such illustrations in the past in a peaceful manner. Ahmed said members of the community have gone to universities to educate students about Prophet Muhammad. He has also become involved in a campaign called Stop the Crisis to tackle the radicalization of Muslim youth.
> 
> “They are very offensive, but one thing I must say: there’s not a single verse of the Prophet that allows a Muslim to take the law in his own hand and commit horrific crimes against humanity,” Ahmed said. “We denounce that.”



More on LINK.



*Related*
MP Michelle Rempel calls on Canadians not to ‘explain away’ extremism in candid post about Paris attack

Christie Blatchford: Terrorists have cowed us all into a ridiculous self-censorship

‘Comedy shouldn’t be an act of courage, but those guys at Hebdo had it': Conan O’Brien, Jon Stewart react to Charlie Hebdo shooting


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Imtiaz Ahmed, an imam with the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, said it should be against the law to publish cartoons that depict religious figures in a derogatory way.

Welcome to the jungle baby! We don't make it against the law, nor do we gun people down for producing it.

This is Canada. Fuck off home if you don't like our comedy.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thanks for the laughs recce, made my night.   :nod:


----------



## CougarKing

As if the first terrorist attack this week wasn't enough! More radical-inspired violence?!

Yahoo News



> *German Newspaper Attacked After Re-Printing Charlie Hebdo Cartoons*
> The Hollywood Reporter
> By Scott Roxborough | The Hollywood Reporter – 8 hours ago
> 
> A newspaper in Hamburg has been attacked days *after they re-printed Muhammad caricatures from French satire magazine Charlie Hebdo.*
> 
> *German police said Sunday they have two suspects in custody following the attack late Saturday night, in which an incendiary device was thrown through the office window of the Hamburger Morgenpost, one of the city's leading dailies*. The newspaper has so far declined to comment but in an article on its website Sunday said the offices were empty at the time of the attack and no one was injured.
> 
> Police spokeswoman Karina Sadowsky said it was not yet clear what the motivation for the attack was.
> On Thursday, Jan.8, the newspaper reprinted one of Charlie Hebdo's controversial Muhammad caricatures on its front page, under the headline “this much freedom must be possible.” Unlike many newspapers in the United States, including The New York Times, European papers were quick to reprint the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in a show of solidarity with the French satire magazine, where 12 people were killed in a terrorist attack Feb. 7.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## OldSolduer

I would expect this sort of thing in the near term, until it gets too hot for the terrorists, who then will dive underground once more.


----------



## George Wallace

This should provide a little perspective as to what the various threats from within may be:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 94% that Aren’t
> LOONWATCH.com
> by Danios on January 20, 2010
> 
> CNN recently published an article entitled Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated; according to a study released by Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, “the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been exaggerated.”
> 
> Yet, Americans continue to live in mortal fear of radical Islam, a fear propagated and inflamed by right wing Islamophobes.  If one follows the cable news networks, it seems as if all terrorists are Muslims.  It has even become axiomatic in some circles to chant: “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslims.” Muslims and their “leftist dhimmi allies” respond feebly, mentioning Waco as the one counter example, unwittingly affirming the belief that “nearly all terrorists are Muslims.”
> 
> But perception is not reality.  The data simply does not support such a hasty conclusion.  On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005.  That list can be accessed here (scroll down all the way to the bottom).
> 
> According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%).  These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion.  These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
> 
> Yet notice the disparity in media coverage between the two.  It would indeed be very interesting to construct a corresponding pie chart that depicted the level of media coverage of each group.  The reason that Muslim apologists and their “leftist dhimmi allies” cannot recall another non-Islamic act of terrorism other than Waco is due to the fact that the media gives menial (if any) coverage to such events.  If a terrorist attack does not fit the “Islam is the perennial and existential threat of our times” narrative, it is simply not paid much attention to, which in a circuitous manner reinforces and “proves” the preconceived narrative.  It is to such an extent that the average American cannot remember any Jewish or Latino terrorist; why should he when he has never even heard of the Jewish Defense League or the Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros?  Surely what he does not know does not exist!
> 
> The Islamophobes claim that Islam is intrinsically a terrorist religion.  The proof?  Well, just about every terrorist attack is Islamic, they retort.  Unfortunately for them, that’s not quite true.  More like six percent.  Using their defunct logic, these right wingers ought now to conclude that nearly all acts of terrorism are committed by Latinos (or Jews).  Let them dare say it…they couldn’t; it would be political and social suicide to say such a thing. Most Americans would shut down such talk as bigoted; yet, similar statements continue to be said of Islam, without any repercussions.
> 
> The Islamophobes live in a fantasy world where everyone is supposedly too “politically correct” to criticize Islam and Muslims.  Yet, the reality is the exact opposite: you can get away with saying anything against the crescent.  Can you imagine the reaction if I said that Latinos should be profiled because after all they are the ones who commit the most terrorism in the country?  (For the record: I don’t believe in such profiling, because I am–unlike the right wing nutters–a believer in American ideals.)
> 
> The moral of the story is that Americans ought to calm down when it comes to Islamic terrorism.  Right wingers always live in mortal fear–or rather, they try to make you feel that way.  In fact, Pamela Geller (the queen of internet Islamophobia) literally said her mission was to “scare the bejeezus outta ya.” Don’t be fooled, and don’t be a wuss.  You don’t live in constant fear of radicalized Latinos (unless you’re Lou Dobbs), even though they commit seven times more acts of terrorism than Muslims in America.  Why then are you wetting yourself over Islamic radicals?  In the words of Cenk Uygur: you’re at a ten when you need to be at a four.  Nobody is saying that Islamic terrorism is not a matter of concern, but it’s grossly exaggerated.
> 
> 
> Related Posts:
> 
> Europol report: All terrorists are Muslims…Except the 99.6% that aren’t
> 
> RAND report: Threat of homegrown jihadism exaggerated, Zero U.S. civilians killed since 9/11
> 
> Update:
> 
> A reader by the name of Dima added:
> 
> The FBI Terrorism Report shows…[that] the highest number of terrorist incidents in the U.S. by region (90) took place in Puerto Rico.
> 
> Second Update:
> 
> An Islamophobe commented on this article, saying that the statistics are flawed because the FBI included small acts such as “stealing rats from a lab” as an act of terrorism.  Of course, this is patently false.  Here is a breakdown of the terrorist attacks by type (the pie chart is from the FBI’s official website and can be accessed here):




More on LINK.


----------



## YZT580

More than a little hypocrisy on the part of CNN.  First they broadcast 18 hours or more of non-stop drama live from France and then they tell their audience to chill out.  Those big bad Islamists really are not so bad and there really aren't so many of them.  Tell that to the folks in Mosul who had their favourite busker executed in front of their eyes or to the orphans who were kidnapped in Nigeria after their teachers and parents were murdered.  How about the relatives of those whose names are etched on the walls at ground zero, do you think that they would be convinced that Islam is a religion of peace?  

In truth though the name doesn't matter.  They have done us the favour of declaring war on the west and ordering our deaths if we don't conform to their way of thinking.  Harper got it right when he stated that this is war.  There is no more clarification needed and no other information required other than the coordinates of their leaders.  And after ISIS should come Nigeria until the lot of them are fertilizer or food for the alligators.


----------



## a_majoor

The problem with our friend in Ottawa is he would have no objection to the cartoons that were published on this thread, and isn't calling for _them_ to be made illegal...and of course no one is going to throw a firebomb through the "office window" of Army.ca for publishing them either.

This sort of "selective" tolerance is how they argue against our freedoms (and it is not only the Islamists; most leftist/progressive arguments follow the same "some for me/none for thee" format), and should be forcefully countered.


----------



## George Wallace

Moderate Muslims are now beginning to become more public in their displeasure with those who immigrate to Western nations and do not accept Western "Freedoms".  The Muslim mayor of the Dutch city of Rotterdam speaks out:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


> Muslims Who Don't Like Free Speech Can 'F**k Off' Says Rotterdam Mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb
> Huffington Post UK	 |  By	Sara C Nelson
> Posted: 13/01/2015 12:51 GMT
> 
> Muslims who turn their backs on freedom have been told to pack their bags and “f*ck off”, the mayor of Rotterdam has said.
> 
> Moroccan-born Muslim Ahmed Aboutaleb made his comments in the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attacks which left 17 people dead.
> 
> Speaking to NewsHour, he said: “It is incomprehensible that you can turn against freedom… But if you don’t like freedom, for heaven’s sake pack your bags and leave.
> 
> “There may be a place in the world where you can be yourself, be honest with yourself and do not go and kill innocent journalists.
> 
> “And if you do not like it here because humourists you do not like make a newspaper, may I then say you can fuck off.
> 
> “This is stupid, this is so incomprehensible. Vanish from the Netherlands if you cannot find your place here. All those well-meaning Muslims here will now be stared at.
> 
> Aboutaleb, who has been the mayor of the Dutch city since 2008, has received praise from London Mayor Boris Johnson.
> 
> In a column for the Telegraph entitled The Islamists Want War, But If Would Be Fatal If We Fell For It, Johnson described Aboutaleb as “my hero.”
> 
> He added: “That is the voice of the Enlightenment, of Voltaire. We can and will protect this country against these jihadist thugs. We will bug them and monitor them and arrest them and prosecute them and jail them.
> 
> "But if we are going to win the struggle for the minds of these young people, then that is the kind of voice we need to hear – and it needs above all to be a Muslim voice.”




Video, photos and more links on LINK.


----------



## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Moderate Muslims are now beginning to become more public in their displeasure with those who immigrate to Western nations and do not accept Western "Freedoms".  The Muslim mayor of the Dutch city of Rotterdam speaks out:
> 
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> Video, photos and more links on LINK.



Wow....a very clear message for once.


----------



## George Wallace

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Wow....a very clear message for once.



He wasn't the first.  



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> The answers lie in what this Muslim posts on FaceBook:  (Caution:  Emotional language used.)
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794512987269573


----------



## YZT580

Gutsy too.  The most we risk is having George flame us for making a dumb statement.  Chaps like the mayor are painting a bulls eye on their foreheads.  Something to think about when you wonder why more don't speak out.


----------



## George Wallace

???


----------



## OldSolduer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???



Did you get tossed under the bus?


----------



## YZT580

Just ran over my foot.


----------



## CougarKing

Another terror attack on Washington DC thwarted/pre-empted by US authorities:

Fox News



> posted Wed 14 January 2015 08:29 PM
> *ISIS sympathizer allegedly plotted terror assault against US Capitol*
> 
> *An alleged sympathizer of the Islamic State terror group was arrested in Ohio* on Wednesday after authorities learned that he was plotting a shooting and bombing attack on the U.S. Capitol.
> 
> Christopher Lee Cornell, 20, of Green Township, considered members of Congress as "enemies," and planned to travel to Washington to kill employees and officers working in and around the U.S. Capitol, according to a criminal complaint. Authorities said he had two semi-automatic rifles and about 600 rounds of ammunition, and planned to build and detonate pipe bombs at and near the U.S. Capitol.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This video by John Maguire is an example of how perverted some can become in their beliefs.


An update:  Live by the sword ....


> Just over a month after he appeared in an Islamic State propaganda video calling for terrorist attacks in Canada, a 24-year-old former Ottawa resident has reportedly been killed in northern Syria.
> 
> A pro-Islamic State Twitter account claimed John Maguire had died near Kobani, a town on the Turkish border that the militant group, also known as ISIS or ISIL, has been struggling to capture from westernbacked Kurdish forces. The online post used his alias, Abu Anwar Al Canadi, and was accompanied by a photo of Maguire taken from a video in which he accused Canada of "waging war" against Muslims ....


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> An update:  Live by the sword ....



Saves the expense of a long incarceration and an expensive trial.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am glad his dream came true.   8)


----------



## Fishbone Jones

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> An update:  Live by the sword ....


----------



## CougarKing

The US keeping in mind that would-be-terrorists could also be citizens of friendly nations:

Military.com



> *Homeland Security Says Visa Waiver Program Could Help Terrorists*
> 
> Associated Press | Jan 17, 2015 | by Joan Lowy
> WASHINGTON -- Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson acknowledged concerns Friday that terrorists might use the visa waiver program to enter the United States, and said his department is taking steps to address weaknesses in the program.
> Johnson told an aviation industry luncheon that he doesn't want to discard the program, which makes it easier for Americans to travel to friendly countries and for citizens of those countries to travel to the U.S. "It represents an important element of lawful commerce between and among our international partners," he said.
> 
> But he noted that some of those countries also have citizens or legal residents who have left to fight or train with terrorist groups in the Middle East, Asia or Africa, then returned home intent on violence.* For example, some citizens or residents of France and Germany have traveled to the Middle East to fight or train with al-Qaida or Islamic State militants. The concern is that those fighters will return to their home countries and from there travel to the U.S.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## a_majoor

And pressure to reduce surveillance and tracking efforts that would assist in identifying terrorist threats, radical Imans and places which may be spreading radical "recruitment" messaging:

http://nypost.com/2015/01/18/city-may-yank-terrorism-report-to-appease-mosque-spying-critics/



> *NYC may yank terrorism report to appease mosque ‘spying’ critics*
> By Susan Edelman
> January 18, 2015 | 6:33am
> 
> In top-secret talks to settle federal lawsuits against the NYPD for monitoring mosques, the city is weighing a demand that it scrub from its Web site a report on Islamic terrorists, The Post has learned.
> 
> The groundbreaking, 92-page report, titled “Radicalization in the West: The Homegrown Threat,” angers critics who say it promotes “religious profiling” and discrimination against Muslims. But law-enforcement sources say removing the report now would come at the worst time — after mounting terror attacks by Islamic extremists in Paris, Boston, Sydney and Ottawa.
> 
> Here in New York, Zale Thompson, a man who heeded online calls by ISIS for jihad, attacked two NYPD officers with a hatchet in October.
> 
> “The harm is that it sends the message that the NYPD is ­going to back down on its counterterrorism effort in the name of political correctness,” said a former NYPD official. “Shame on the NYPD if they do.”
> 
> Sources familiar with the case confirmed that removal of the NYPD report is one of the major sticking points in settlement negotiations.
> 
> Also on the table are demands that the NYPD halt any ongoing surveillance in the Muslim community and that records of prior monitoring be expunged, sources said.
> 
> With what seems today like a crystal ball, the 2007 NYPD report identified an “emerging threat” — al Qaeda-inspired jihadists in the United States and abroad, hell-bent on attacking their host countries.
> 
> “Radicalization is something the NYPD saw happening in Europe,” said the former NYPD official. “It was prescient in identifying this phenomenon and predicting it would increase.”
> 
> Among the report’s warnings:
> 
> •“The majority of radical individuals began as ‘unremarkable’ — they had ‘unremarkable’ jobs, had lived ‘unremarkable’ lives and had little, if any criminal history.”
> 
> •Most terrorist wannabes are reasonably well-educated male Muslims between ages 18 and 35, local residents, second- or third-generation with roots in the Middle East or South Asia, and from middle-class families.
> 
> •“The Internet is a driver and enabler for the process of radicalization” — providing information on extremist beliefs to practical advice on constructing weapons
> 
> •Recent converts to Islam can be the most radical. “Their need to prove their religious convictions to their companions often makes them the most aggressive.”
> 
> •Potential jihadists flock to mosques as their religious beliefs deepen, then withdraw from them when “the individual’s level of extremism surpasses that of the mosque.”
> 
> •Once a person is radicalized, an attack can happen very quickly. “While the other phases of radicalization may take place gradually, over two to three years, this jihadization component can be a very rapid process, taking only a few months, or even weeks.”
> 
> Under former Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, the report served as a blueprint for the NYPD’s “demographic unit,” which sent plainclothes detectives into Muslim cafes, stores and mosques to detect potential terrorists.
> 
> After the initiative was exposed by The Associated Press, Muslim leaders and groups filed two lawsuits in Brooklyn federal court claiming they were subjected to unwarranted surveillance.
> 
> The suits complain the radicalization report puts virtually all Muslims under suspicion.
> 
> Last April, Police Commissioner Bill Bratton disbanded the intelligence-gathering unit.
> 
> A spokesman for the city Law Department said, “Discussions are ongoing, and nothing is final.”
> 
> Additional reporting by Laura Italiano, Julia Marsh and Amber Jamieson


----------



## George Wallace

The fact that the WEST, with its Freedoms, Rights, and tolerance of other views, allows people like Anjem Choudary in the UK to remain in their nation and spew his fanatical beliefs is leading to the spread of homegrown radicals in our populations.  Anjem Choudary preaches, but doesn't even listen to what he is saying.  In the first few minutes of this video, Anjem Choudary goes on about how the Jews are occupying Muslim lands in Israel.   The Jews originated in what is the current state of Israel.  For Anjem Choudary to carry on and state that the Jews are occupying Muslim lands and must be eradicated, while he is preaching the spread of Islam and Sharia Law into Western societies does not appear to be a contradiction of terms to him.  Perhaps he should be eradicated for occupying Western lands.

Hannity to Anjem Choudary: "You're One Sick Miserable Evil SOB"


----------



## Edward Campbell

Much as I find Choudary's views to be offensive _stupid_ and _hateful_, I believe that we, as a civilized society, must allow him to spew them out. He wants to replace us, our enlightened civilization, with a _barbarian_ culture ... that's his right and it is also his right to advocate it, so long as he stops just a wee, tiny step short of incitement to violence.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting site to read:

the politically incorrect truth about islam one really messed up religion

The Myths of Islam

This article, from December 2014, looks at Muslim radicals in France and Europe being treated as 'mentally ill'.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> IMMIGRATION, MUSLIM VIOLENCE
> FRANCE: REVOLUTIONARY TREATMENT FOR MUSLIM ‘MENTAL ILLNESS’
> DECEMBER 29, 2014
> 
> Dhimmitude
> 
> 
> _Violent attacks accompanied by cries of “Allahu Akbar” are simply the result of “mental illness,” according to French authorities who incidentally are enacting a subtle “treatment” for this plague…_
> 
> By: Y.K. Cherson and Rachel Molschky
> 
> _“If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian,       or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way, however it may be…”
> 
> “Smash his head with a rock, or slaughter him with a knife, or run him over with your car, or throw him down from a high place, or choke him, or poison him.”_
> 
> These were the words of Abu Mohammed al Adnani, the official spokesman and a senior leader of ISIS, as he addressed the terror group’s supporters around the world back in September.
> 
> Not once in the message did al Adnani say he was only speaking to official card-carrying ISIS members, but that is exactly what the West expects- especially those “spiteful and filthy French” who experienced three “lone wolf” terror attacks in three days.
> 
> On December 19, a new video along the same lines again, emphasized France and commanded Muslims to kill unbelievers and to “Blow up France! Reduce France to crumbs! …Kill them [unbelievers], kill them, no matter where they are, kill them… blow up their heads, be it with a stone, a knife, anything.”
> 
> And Muslims took heed with a wave of attacks- in France.
> 
> First in Joue-les-Tours, a Muslim convert from Burundi shouting “Allahu Akbar” (Allah is the greatest), attacked a group of police officers with a knife, stabbing some of them before getting shot. The initial reaction was that it was Islamic terrorism, and Burundi’s intelligence spokesman stated that the assailant as well as his brother had ties to “radical Islam.” French authorities however, rushed to assure the public this man was nothing more than a “mentally disturbed and unbalanced individual.”
> 
> Next was Dijon, where 13 people were injured when a Maghrebi Muslim targeted pedestrians in five different parts of the city, cheering himself on with the same traditional Muslim “greeting” used in the murder of Christians, Jews, Atheists, Pagans… and anyone else who is not Muslim. French authorities declared him “a lone wolf” without any connection to terrorism and attributed the attack to his “mental illness”; in the last 13 years, the guy was a patient of mental health clinics 157 times. Why and how such an individual got a driver’s license, and why he was not hospitalized- this is another question.
> 
> As for the “Allahu Akbar,” French prosecutor Marie-Christine Tarrare stated that the Muslim son of North African immigrants only screamed this phrase to give himself the courage to carry out the violence, but not out of any religious beliefs. Keep in mind once again, that “Allahu Akbar” means “Allah is the greatest” and is often heard by Muslims as they carry out Islamic terrorism.
> 
> The next attack occurred in Nantes, another attacker who, by the original accounts of witnesses and police officers, also howled “Allahu Akbar,” drove his van into the crowd of people buying Christmas gifts; 11 were wounded including himself, and one of them has since died. French authorities…Well, you already know. Not only was he “mentally ill,” he was drunk, and police suspiciously withheld his name and stated that none of the attacks were related, and that these terrorists had no official ties to Islamic terror groups- in other words, they were not carrying their “ISIS identification cards” in their wallets.
> 
> The local prosecutor in the case, Brigitte Lamy, stated that the attack, despite occurring only one day after an almost identical act of vehicular terrorism, is an isolated incident and “not a terrorist act.”
> 
> Then another “unbalanced individual” was detained in Cannes, with two loaded pump-action shotguns and a knife. Big deal!  Some “unbalanced” Muslim got out to “hunt rabbits”- near the Forville market in Cannes, that is.
> 
> The number of victims could be more serious: in Paris on the same day as the Nantes attack, shots were fired at a synagogue. Days later, assailants opened fire at a Jewish restaurant in the same neighborhood. Undoubtedly, according to the French police, those responsible for both attacks were not Muslims, did not have “any ties to Jihad” – and were just “unbalanced individuals” who coincidentally attacked Jews following the instruction by ISIS to kill non-Muslims in France.
> 
> Throughout the whole ordeal, French authorities repeatedly assured the public that none of the attacks were related, all were isolated incidents with no terrorist motive, no religious motive and no ties to Islam whatsoever. It was just a series of violence perpetrated by the mentally ill, an interesting development being that there have always been mentally ill people, yet suddenly, they are going on the rampage and killing or attempting to kill people in the name of Allah.
> 
> We can be certain that no non-Muslim would scream “Allahu Akbar” before going berserk on police officers or crowds of people.
> 
> This new “mental illness” rhetoric is clearly the newest phase of exaggerated political correctness but is also partly due to a new study in which sociologists reviewed the cases of 98 extremist attackers in the United States. Of them, 40 percent were found to have some sort of mental health issues, compared to only 1.5 percent of the general population.
> 
> However, there are those who dispute this study, and psychological problems without the influence of Islam are not going to produce acts of terrorism, in particular those perpetrated by Muslims against the non-Muslim population.
> 
> Psychologist Nicolai Sennels has written a report on this very thing.
> 
> _ “Psychopathic people and behaviour are found within all cultures and religions. But one tops them all — by many lengths…”_
> 
> That would be Islam of course.
> 
> Sennels studied both Muslims and non-Muslims in a Danish youth prison and came to the conclusion that “Islam and Muslim culture have certain psychological mechanisms that harm people’s development and increase criminal behaviour.”
> 
> While some 70 percent of youth offenders in Denmark have a Muslim background, according to Sennels, the reason for this can be attributed to brainwashing in the Muslim culture as well as the four enabling psychological factors of anger, self-confidence, responsibility for oneself and intolerance, all further discussed in greater detail on Jihad Watch.
> 
> But don’t tell this to French authorities who rely on the “mental illness” scapegoat needed to fulfill their obligations to the ever-powerful demand of “political correctness” which dictates their public statements, always an absurd display of dhimmitude.
> 
> But these are just words. What are their actions? Before such a sad deterioration in the mental health of French citizens, especially of those who profess Islam, the French government invented a very original medical treatment for “mentally ill” and “unbalanced” persons, adding another 300 anti-terrorist security troops to the already deployed 780 during the Christmas season for a total of 1080 armed and trained security soldiers– to fight “mentally ill” and “unbalanced” individuals?? That’s quite a remedy!
> 
> Or maybe members of the French government somewhere deep in their hearts know that this  senselessness they are telling us about “lone wolves” without any ties to Jihad crying “Allahu Akbar” when driving their vehicles into Christians buying gifts for Christmas is just this: senseless politically correct mumbo jumbo?
> 
> As O. Henry once wrote, you can defy the allegation, but you can’t deny the alligators.
> 
> Related Reading:
> 
> The Religion for the ‘Mentally Ill’
> 
> The Goal of Muslim Immigration According to Muhammad’s Teachings
> 
> Muslim Immigration: Preparing the Attack




More on LINKS found in article.


Who are Y.K. Cherson and Rachel Molschky?   http://chersonandmolschky.com/about/



> Who We Are
> 
> Y.K. Cherson is an Israeli writer who has written countless articles for sites like Right Side News, Ali Sina’s Faith Freedom and many more. He has spent a lifetime serving the public. With an extensive military career which provided invaluable experience dealing firsthand with terrorists and future terrorists, his current “day job” keeps him on the front lines of the immigration and related crime issues facing us today.
> 
> A graduate of Moscow State University and Tel Aviv University, Cherson has a Ph.D. in International Politics and Economics. Aside from his military and academic background, his unique perspective comes from a lifetime of living around the world: first in Eastern Europe, then the Middle East, and currently in the West.
> 
> Rachel Molschky is Cherson’s writing partner as well as the editor and administrator of this site. A graduate of Syracuse University and with a background in journalism, as well as business writing and research, Molschky has joined forces with Cherson to inform the public of what the mainstream media fails to report, with the main focus being the three “I’s”: immigration, Islam and Israel.
> 
> Both Cherson and Molschky have had personal experience with the immigration process in different places, and Rachel is a second-generation American native-born citizen, which means it wasn’t long ago that her own family immigrated to a nation completely foreign to their culture. Yet they assimilated into the “melting pot” that used to be America, unlike today with the “multicultural” approach pushed by the liberal front, a concept that is a complete failure when the “religious” values of the immigrants clash with those of the native inhabitants. Multiculturalism does not promote assimilation, and instead of a cohesive nation with a shared patriotism, immigrants now live in their own parallel communities, many with a hatred for their adopted country.
> 
> While they may seem like an unlikely pair, with Cherson from the East and Molschky from the West, both share a nearly identical ethnic and religious heritage. Identifying strongly with the religious ideals which were once the backbone of our nations, they work together to bring the reader a comprehensive and logical view of these topics, something that is lacking in the general mainstream media.
> 
> Paul Wilkinson is the resident guest blogger, adding another dimension to the site as a native Brit and rounding out the team with a Western European perspective. Wilkinson has seen, not only his country, but also his own neighborhood, transformed by Muslim immigration. Read his personal account of how Nottingham, his home city, has changed in the last 15 years.


----------



## CougarKing

A worthwhile repost:



> *France Publishes ‘How To Spot a Jihadist’ Citizen’s Guide*
> JANUARY 30, 2015
> BY ANDREW GIAMBRONE - THE ATLANTIC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you spot a radical jihadist? According to the French government, several signs should alert people that “a process of radicalization is underway.” “They” (meaning radicalized individuals):
> 
> _mistrust old friends, whom they now consider ‘impure’… abruptly change their eating habits … no longer watch television or go to the movies because [these may show] images that are forbidden to them … change their attire, especially women, with clothes that conceal the body … [and] stop listening to music because it distracts them from their ‘mission.’_
> 
> *Defense One*


----------



## George Wallace

Discussions are being held in Europe to find solutions to the networks that are smuggling thousands of ISIL recruits out of European nations.  This is an ominous statement that affects all Western nations:

 Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> 'Just wait…' Islamic State reveals it has smuggled THOUSANDS of extremists into Europe
> 
> *AN OPERATIVE working for Islamic State has revealed the terror group has successfully smuggled thousands of covert Jihadists into Europe.*
> the Express
> Published: 17:42, Sat, January 31, 2015
> By AARON BROWN
> 
> The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees.
> 
> The ISIS smuggler, who is in his 30s with a trimmed jet-black beard, revealed the ongoing clandestine operation is a complete success.
> 
> "Just wait," he smiled.
> 
> The Islamic State operative spoke exclusively to BuzzFeed on the condition of anonymity and is believed to be the first to confirm plans to infiltrate western countries.
> 
> Islamic State, also referred to as IS and ISIS, is believed to be actively smuggling deadly gunmen across the sparsely-guarded 565-mile Turkish border and on to richer European nations, he revealed.
> 
> There are now more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen "ready" across the European Union, he claimed.
> 
> The operative said the undercover infiltration was the beginning of a larger plot to carry out revenge attacks in the West in retaliation for the US-led coalition airstrikes.
> 
> "If someone attacks me," he said "then for sure I will attack them back."
> 
> Islamic State extremists are taking advantage of developed nation's generosity towards refugees to infiltrate Europe, he said.
> 
> The lethal ISIS gunmen use local smugglers to blend in and travel amongst a huge tide of illegal migrants flooding Europe.
> 
> More than 1.5million refugees have fled into Turkey alone – desperate to escape the bloodshed in Syria.
> 
> From Turkish port cities like Izmir and Mersin, thousands of refugees venture across the Mediterranean aiming for Italy, he said.
> 
> Then the majority make for more welcoming nations like Sweden and Germany, turning themselves over to authorities and appealing for asylum.
> 
> "They are going like refugees," he said.
> 
> Two Turkish refugee-smugglers backed up the claims made by the ISIS Syrian operative.
> 
> One admitted to helping more than ten trained ISIS rebels infiltrate Europe under the guise of asylum seekers.
> 
> He said: "I’m sending some fighters who want to go and visit their families.
> 
> "Others just go to Europe to be ready."
> 
> The Syrian operative, a former member of his nation's security forces, said ISIS had ambitious plans ahead.
> 
> "It’s our dream that there should be a caliphate not only in Syria but in all the world," he said "and we will have it soon, God willing."
> 
> The operative agreed to a meeting at the urging of a former Free Syrian Army gunman who fought alongside him in the war.
> 
> The Syrian said he had been granted permission to attend the meeting by his superior in ISIS — a radical referred to by members of the group as an "emir."
> 
> "There are some things I’m allowed to tell you and some things I’m not," he said.
> 
> During the meeting, the operative said he believed future attacks would only target Western governments – not civilians.
> 
> Although details of terror plot are something over which he has little control, he claims.
> 
> The revelation comes just days after a spokesperson for Islamic State called on Muslims in the West to carry out terror attacks.
> 
> The jihadist told Western followers if they had the opportunity to "shed a drop of blood" in Western countries – then they should do so.
> 
> Spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani also praised the recent terror attacks in Australia, Belgium and France.
> 
> "We repeat our call to Muslims in Europe, the infidel West, and everywhere to target the Crusaders in their home countries and wherever they find them," he said.
> 
> "We will be enemies, in front of God, to any Muslim who can shed a drop of blood of a Crusader and abstains from doing that with a bomb, bullet, knife, car, rock or even a kick or a punch."
> 
> A Turkish foreign ministry official said authorities were actively working to clamp down on refugee-smuggling.
> 
> He pointed out that since Europe accepts few refugees through legal channels, the demand for smuggling has increased.
> 
> "Illegal migration has been an important issue and Turkey is effectively fighting against it," the official, who declined to be named, confirmed.
> 
> "Of course the most effective way to put an end to all these problems would be immediate action by the international community to solve the Syrian conflict."
> 
> When asked about the smuggling of Islamic State operatives in boats of innocent refugees, the anonymous official said his government was unaware of the plot.
> 
> "We do not have that particular intelligence," he said.
> 
> "Turkey has been taking very tight measures against [ISIS] with all the capabilities the government has."





More on LINK.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Hopefully this is just BS, but I fear not.  More reason for me to be uncomfortable with taking in thousands of refugees that come from that region.  How do you pick out the wolves from among the sheep?  

Suddenly the Sesame Street's " Homelamb" isn't so funny.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1zL106SGZ8


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Hopefully this is just BS, but I fear not.  More reason for me to be uncomfortable with taking in thousands of refugees that come from that region.  How do you pick out the wolves from among the sheep?




The usual ways: spies, snitches, bribes, blackmail and the occasional assassination


----------



## CougarKing

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Discussions are being held in Europe to find solutions to the networks that are smuggling thousands of ISIL recruits out of European nations.



One of these extremists caught trying to make another attack?

Military.com



> *Ex-Criminal Turned Back in Turkey Attacks 3 French Soldiers*
> 
> Associated Press | Feb 03, 2015 | by Jamey Keaten
> PARIS — A former criminal who had been blocked by French and Turkish police from traveling along a route used by jihadi fighters on Tuesday* allegedly attacked three French soldiers with a knife outside a Jewish community center in southern France, officials said*.
> 
> France's counterterrorism agency last week flagged the suspect, *Moussa Coulibaly*, to Turkish authorities before he flew on Jan. 28 on a one-way ticket to Turkey, a transit point for jihadis from Europe to join Islamic extremist groups fighting in Syria and Iraq, one French security official said.
> 
> Coulibaly and a suspected accomplice were detained after the attack on the soldiers, who were conducting an anti-terrorism patrol in front of a Jewish community center in Nice as part of stepped-up security measures since a three-day spree of deadly terror attacks in and around Paris last month.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

A bad idea to release him?

Reuters



> *Jordan releases leading al Qaeda mentor: security source*
> 
> AMMAN (Reuters) - Jordanian authorities released *an imprisoned spiritual leader linked to al Qaeda, Sheikh Abu Mohammad al-Maqdisi*, on Thursday, a security source said.
> 
> There was no immediate announcement of the reason for his release two days after the al Qaeda offshoot Islamic State issued a video showing a captive Jordanian pilot being burned alive.
> 
> But another security source told Reuters Maqdisi was expected to denounce the immolation of the Jordanian pilot Mouath al-Kasaesbeh as against "faith values".
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The CBC is reporting on the two Canadians involved in the gas plant bombing in Algeria; the report is reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from _CBC News_:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/01/f-algeria-canadians-militants-hostages.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Canadians in Algerian gas plant attack identified*
> More Canadians may have been involved in attack ....
Click to expand...

Bumped with the latest from the U.K. on one of the folks involved ....


> As Canada grappled with watching one of its own turn on fellow citizens in the nation's capital last fall, the phrase "Canadian terrorist" was already a familiar one an ocean away, at the Royal Courts of Justice in London, England.
> 
> One of the young men frequently mentioned at the inquest underway here was also born and raised in Canada, had converted to a radical version of Islam, and had somehow learned his way around guns and many other far more lethal weapons.
> 
> Xris Katsiroubas, from London, Ont., was also, like the Ottawa gunman, ultimately killed in the course of his twisted mission.
> 
> But in a sombre London courtroom, a coroner's inquest into the violent murder of six British men and one U.K. resident in an Algerian desert hostage-taking two years ago, his horrific legacy was being methodically reconstructed.
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> Not long after the standoff ended, Canadian officials revealed the identities of at least two citizens believed directly involved: Xris Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej, friends from London, Ont. Their remains had been found at the plant.
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> On the opening day of the inquest, Scotland Yard Detective Superintendent James Stokely, the senior investigating officer, said images of Katsiroubas had been captured on a cellphone by the youngest of the British hostages, 26-year-old Sebastian John, and emailed back to his wife in the U.K. within the first hours of the attack.
> 
> John — who was praised by the inquest judge as brave for taking the pictures "at considerable risk to himself," was ultimately killed in the attack.
> 
> The photos, never before revealed, have been obtained by CBC News. One of them clearly sums up Katsiroubas's role in the first hours of the attack: he is seated on the ground in fatigues, a rifle in one hand — and a phone in the other ....


----------



## CougarKing

Misplaced documents or a closet radical caught in the act?

SUN News



> *Montreal college suspends Arabic school after links to radical Islam found*
> 
> MONTREAL - A Montreal college has suspended its contract with a school that teaches Arabic and the Qur'an after links to radical materials were found on its website.
> 
> *Rosemont College was renting space to the El Forkane school, run by Mohamed Ridha Rahmaoui.*
> 
> An investigation by TVA, QMI Agency's sister TV station, found links on the school's website to sites promoting radical Islam ideology, including Salafism, one of the more fundamental strains of the faith.
> 
> *While Rahmaoui, who also runs a kindergarten under the El Forkane name, insisted that he is in favour of secular education, that's contradicted by one Arabic-language sermon that was linked to on his school's website.*
> 
> "Beware of the enemies of Islam; they will always want trouble, they set traps, the largest of which is their schools," it read.
> 
> Within minutes of a phone call from TVA to Rahmaoui asking about the 155 links, they were removed from the school's site
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Another Canadian ISIS recruit to be wary of:

Fox News



> *Mysterious woman from Canada’s rapid rise in ISIS puzzles intel analysts*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> Little is known about the woman who calls herself *"Lama Sharif al-Shammari"* on Twitter and who terrorism experts simply call “L.A.” They believe she left Canada some time after Nov. 23 to join Islamic State, arrived on Dec. 8 and was in Syria as recently as Tuesday. Analysts believe she may be a Sunni Muslim of Saudi descent.
> 
> *But what sets "L.A." apart from thousands of radicalized foreigners who have flocked from North America and Europe to the terrorist army's killing fields is that her Twitter account shows she has been to virtually every corner of Islamic State's bloody realm within a three-week period, according to analysts. They believe her whirlwind itinerary indicates she is somehow significant and has risen inexplicably through the ranks.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Good job to the security services in Australia!

Reuters



> *Australia anti-terror police arrest two in alleged plot: media*
> 
> SYDNEY (Reuters) - Two men have been arrested in Sydney after a raid by Australian counterterrorism police found a hunting knife, a flag and other items, raising suspicions of a "beheading plot," the Daily Telegraph reported on Wednesday.
> 
> A New South Wales police spokeswoman would not comment on the details of the report, but said two men were assisting police with inquiries after an operation on Tuesday afternoon.
> 
> A media conference was planned for later on Wednesday.
> 
> In December, two hostages died as police stormed a cafe in central Sydney, ending a 17-hour siege. The gunman, Man Haron Monis, a self-styled sheik who harbored deep grievances against the Australian government and sought to align himself with the Islamic State militant group, was also killed.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

At least this one now walks among us without a passport ....


> Federal officials have revoked the passport of an Iranian-trained Montreal imam once described by the RCMP’s Integrated National Security Enforcement Team as a “subject of interest in an ongoing investigation.”
> 
> Ali Sbeiti, who was born in Iraq but has been a Canadian citizen since 1991, was notified in a Nov. 19 letter that his passport had been “invalidated” and that Passport Canada was reviewing his “eligibility for passport services.”
> 
> The four-page letter from Citizenship and Immigration Canada advised Mr. Sbeiti he could no longer use his passport and that he had to return it immediately. While it cited federal regulations, the letter did not explain why the action was taken.
> 
> But internal government documents show that the Mounties have expressed interest in Mr. Sbeiti since 2009. He was also flagged by the Passport Canada security bureau after he altered his passport by trying to remove a sticker from one of the pages in 2007.
> 
> Mr. Sbeiti could not be reached for comment. His lawyer Mitchell Goldberg said he could not comment on the specifics of the case but that anyone advocating hatred or violence, or supporting terrorism, should be criminally charged. “None of us would want our passports to be revoked without even the right to know what allegations are being made against us, and the basic opportunity to give our side of the story,” he said, adding that fundamental rights included “the right to hold unpopular views.” ....


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> At least this one now walks among us without a passport ....



Ummmm?


What happened to that Policy of Deporting them to their country of birth?


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Ummmm?
> 
> 
> What happened to that Policy of Deporting them to their country of birth?


Sounds like he's a Canadian citizen as of 1991, so no deportation for him.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Sounds like he's a Canadian citizen as of 1991, so no deportation for him.



I did not think that mattered.  They want to deport a Canadian born in Ottawa to Indian Embassy staff, to India.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I did not think that mattered.  They want to deport a Canadian born in Ottawa to Indian Embassy staff, to India.


I'm only about 85% sure that if they're Canadian, they can't be sent back, even if the passport's withdrawn.  Then again, that might be changing under the proposed new rules.


----------



## ModlrMike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I did not think that mattered.  They want to deport a Canadian born in Ottawa to Indian Embassy staff, to India.



I may be mistaken, but I believe children who's parent(s) is/are consular staff are born citizens of the parent nation, not of where they're born.


----------



## Robert0288

First, as a Canadian citizen, there is absolutely no way to deport the individual.  The only way that would be possible is if CIC looked back through his original landing documents and his application for citizenship and found that in one way or another misrepresented himself.  If that's the case, CIC can strip him of his citizenship and then start doing op a deportation order against the individual.  I believe there was a case recently (within the last 5 years) of an individual who participate in war crimes somewhere on the African continent who misrepresented himself during his PR application.  

There's a couple of things that not mentioned in the article.  Most importantly is he still an Iraqi citizen.  If so he still may hold an Iraqi passport and as such be eligible for travel anyways as he holds a valid travel document.  When returning to Canada, he would just need to show that he is a Canadian citizen and would enter by right, and nothing can be done on the immigration side (to my knowledge) to prevent it.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I'm only about 85% sure that if they're Canadian, they can't be sent back, even if the passport's withdrawn.  Then again, that might be changing under the proposed new rules.



We have seen people deported to Jamaica in the past.  I don't recall their citizenship status, but it has been a problem with Jamaican criminals residing in Canada. 

If this case is an Iraqi, holding dual citizenship, then if he were to travel abroad on his Iraqi passport, he would have to produce that to CBSA should he wish to re-enter Canada (as he would not have a Canadian one) and that SHOULD raise ALARM bells -- Canadian citizen with an Iraqi passport.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We have seen people deported to Jamaica in the past.  I don't recall their citizenship status, but it has been a problem with Jamaican criminals residing in Canada.
> 
> If this case is an Iraqi, holding dual citizenship, then if he were to travel abroad on his Iraqi passport, he would have to produce that to CBSA should he wish to re-enter Canada (as he would not have a Canadian one) and that SHOULD raise ALARM bells -- Canadian citizen with an Iraqi passport.


Very good point on the dual citizenship-dual passport thing.  Still, I think once you're a citizen here, no deportation for YOU!


----------



## Robert0288

Would some sort of intel agency be contact?  If the person is awake at the switch is awake, then yes.  CSIS/RCMP/CBSA intel etc... You could sit him down and have a long chat, but it wouldn't be about his immigration status in Canada.  And on the customs side, especially at the airport it doesn't take that long to go through a bag to determine if his goods are admissible.

The one option that I can see being is CBSA detaining for one of the 83.x offences in the criminal code while waiting for RCMP/CSIS to show up.



REF: 

83.19 (1) Every one who knowingly facilitates a terrorist activity is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.
  
Marginal note:Facilitation
    (2) For the purposes of this Part, a terrorist activity is facilitated whether or not
        (a) the facilitator knows that a particular terrorist activity is facilitated;
        (b) any particular terrorist activity was foreseen or planned at the time it was facilitated; or
        (c) any terrorist activity was actually carried out.

83.191: Everyone who leaves or attempts to leave Canada, or goes or attempts to go on board a conveyance with the intent to leave Canada, for the purpose of committing an act or omission outside Canada that, if committed in Canada, would be an offence under subsection 83.19(1) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 14 years.


----------



## CougarKing

Reuters



> *Bin Laden told of al Qaeda suspect's plot in 'chilling' letter: U.S*
> Reuters
> 
> By Nate Raymond | Reuters – 8 hours ago
> 
> NEW YORK (Reuters) - A U.S. prosecutor told jurors at the terrorism trial of accused al Qaeda operative Abid Naseer that his plan to bomb a shopping center in England in 2009 was described in a "chilling" letter recovered during the military raid that killed Osama bin Laden.
> 
> In an opening statement at trial in federal court in Brooklyn, New York, prosecutor Celia Cohen said the letter from al Qaeda's head of Western operations updated bin Laden on plans by Naseer and others to carry out attacks in New York, Copenhagen and Manchester, England.
> 
> "You will see that chilling reminder in the letter to Osama bin Laden that al Qaeda's goal was to attack infidels in their home territories," Cohen said.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> Prosecutors say *Naseer was leader of an al Qaeda cell plotting an attack on Manchester and that another cell conspired to bomb the New York City subway system, while a third planned to attack a Copenhagen newspaper that had printed cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.*
> 
> Two men, Najibullah Zazi and Zarein Ahmedzay, pleaded guilty to charges stemming from the New York plot. A third, Adis Medunjanin, was convicted at trial and sentenced in 2012 to life in prison. Zazi was the first witness called Tuesday.
> 
> Cohen said Naseer like Zazi coordinated his plans through a Pakistan-based al Qaeda facilitator, *"Sohaib," using email addresses intended to disguise his identity and describing the attack as a "wedding" or "marriage."*


----------



## CougarKing

Homegrown jihadi terrorists in Minneapolis in the spotlight:

Yahoo News



> *Preventing homegrown terrorism within the United States*
> By Bianna Golodryga | Yahoo News – Tue, 17 Feb, 2015
> 
> This weekend’s terror attacks in Copenhagen, Denmark, are the latest in a string of violence targeting some of Europe’s largest cities. Those behind the attacks share a common thread — young, local Muslims who have been radicalized by events taking place thousands of miles away in the streets of Syria, Iraq and Libya. And while recent attacks have been carried out in other countries, U.S. law enforcement officials warn that American cities are targets as well. What worries them most is that, like in Europe, Canada and Australia, would-be perpetrators are likely citizens within the country. Thwarting homegrown extremism has quickly become one of the biggest priorities for counterterrorism agencies. So much so that this week, President Barack Obama will host a counterterrorism summit in Washington — the first of its kind — alongside other world leaders.
> 
> The Department of Homeland Security has estimated that at least 100 Americans have traveled to Iraq and Syria to join the Islamic State, also known as ISIL or ISIS. Nearly a quarter of those men are from the *Minneapolis area, which is home to about 100,000 Somali immigrants, the largest concentration of Somalis in the country*. A majority of them are Muslim.
> 
> 
> Since 2007, the FBI has been investigating the city’s Somali community in an effort to better understand the reason that there is a growing number of men turning to radical Islam and, in particular, sympathizing with the Islamic State. *Investigations like these have landed the city in the middle of a national debate as to whether Muslim communities within the U.S. are breeding grounds for extremism and so-called “no-go” zones, alleged communities where non-Muslims are not welcome and where Sharia takes precedence over federal law. *Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal has warned of them, as has Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, which is based in Washington, D.C. Perkins went on to specifically call out such areas in Minneapolis and Dearborn, Michigan.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Loachman

Hello, Force

I have just read through all of your posts and thank you for them, and for your insight.

We have much to learn. Please keep educating us.


----------



## a_majoor

Some politicians have a more direct way of dealing with terrorism in their midst. Video at link:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/22/video-jerusalem-mayor-takes-down-knife-wielding-terrorist/



> *VIDEO: Jerusalem Mayor Takes Down Knife-Wielding Terrorist*
> 
> The mayor of Jerusalem and his bodyguard took down a knife-wielding terrorist today, a takedown captured on Jerusalem Municipality Emergency and Safety Department footage.
> 
> According to YNet News, the 18-year-old Palestinian teen from Ramallah stabbed a 27-year-old Haredi man in central Jerusalem’s Safra Square.
> 
> Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat, 55, was in his car nearby, jumped out of his vehicle along with his security guard, and rushed the suspect. They also gave first aid to the victim, who suffered “moderate” wounds, until paramedics arrived.
> 
> Barkat, who was a paratrooper during his six years of IDF service, is in the white shirt in the above security footage.
> 
> UPDATE: Looks like the victim is going to be OK.
> 
> Read more: http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/02/22/video-jerusalem-mayor-takes-down-knife-wielding-terrorist/#ixzz3SVxMI9fv


----------



## CougarKing

Supporting terrorism is just as bad as conducting terrorism itself:

Reuters



> *U.S. charges three with conspiring to support Islamic State*
> 
> By Joseph Ax
> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Three men were charged on Wednesday with conspiring to support Islamic State, including two who planned to travel to Syria to fight on behalf of the radical group, U.S. authorities said.
> 
> One of the men, Akhror Saidakhmetov, 19, of Kazakhstan, was arrested on Wednesday at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York, where authorities said he was attempting to board a flight to Turkey on his way to Syria.
> 
> Another defendant, Abdurasul Hasanovich Juraboev, 24, of Uzbekistan, previously purchased a ticket for a March flight to Istanbul, said Loretta Lynch, U.S. Attorney in Brooklyn.
> 
> Abror Habibov, 30, of Uzbekistan, was accused of funding Saidakhmetov's efforts.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Such violence-prone radicalism should never be allowed to fester in an institution of learning of all places...

(even if some university faculty members may themselves hold radical views that may resent or reject the greater, free society in which they teach)

Sky News



> *'Toxic Environment' At Emwazi's University*
> Sky NewsSky News – Sun, 1 Mar, 2015
> 
> A former student at Mohammed Emwazi's London university has told Sky News it allowed a toxic environment of radical Islam, where holy war was glorified behind closed doors.
> The University of Westminster has insisted it condemns the promotion of radicalisation and is trying to stop it, after Emwazi was unmasked as the Islamic State militant "Jihadi John".
> 
> *The unnamed ex-student said groups active at the university "created a hostile environment towards non-Muslims, were anti-Israeli and homophobic remarks were rampant at the campus".*
> 
> He added: "If this toxic environment endured after I left I am not surprised a 'normal' young Muslim struggling to find identity became radicalised."
> The former student added the university was "excellent" but "their tolerance was abused by people who played a double game".
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Cage is just a group using a "victim narrative" of how Emwazi was inspired to radicalism to shift blame from themselves to the British government.  :

Reuters



> *Charities that funded Cage, one time supporter of IS's Emwazi, under pressure*
> 
> By Ahmed Aboulenein, Michael Holden and Simon Falush
> 
> LONDON (Reuters) - The financial backers of a campaign group that had contact with the man later known as 'Jihadi John' are under pressure from British politicians and a regulator's investigation to explain why they gave it several hundred thousand pounds.
> 
> *The Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, a Quaker foundation, and The Roddick Foundation, set up by the late founder of beauty retailer Body Shop, are among those now being a*sked how they came to fund Cage, a small activist group that called Mohammed Emwazi, killer of American, British and Syrian hostages, a once "beautiful young man".
> 
> "I condemn anybody who attempts to excuse that barbarism away in the way that has been done by Cage," British interior minister Theresa May told parliament in response to the comment by Cage's research boss Asim Qureshi to media last week.
> 
> *Cage was set up by a group of London Muslims with the aim of supporting British suspects being held by the United States in Guantanamo Bay. Its activists blame U.S. and British foreign policy for radicalizing Muslims and accuse the security services of harassing those who refuse to be informants.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Russel Brand is blaming it all on the west.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2978621/Jihadism-corrupt-Britain-s-fault-says-Brand-Comedian-rants-YouTube-society-forcing-young-turn-ISIS.html


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Re-printed under the usual caveats of the Copyright Act. 


> Terrorist threat sees three Regina schools pull out of cheerleading competition
> 
> By CJME — The Canadian Press — Mar 3 2015
> 
> REGINA - Three Regina high schools and one in Saskatoon have pulled out of a cheerleading competition after threats were made against West Edmonton Mall in an online video.
> 
> And that has one mother suggesting the terrorists have won.
> 
> The video purportedly came from the Al-Shabab group and urges Muslims to attack malls including the Mall of America in Minneapolis and the one in Edmonton.
> 
> Denise Fisher of the Alberta Cheerleading Association says a dozen teams have pulled out of the competition scheduled for this coming weekend.
> 
> They include Campbell Collegiate, Balfour Collegiate and Winston Knoll Collegiate in Regina, and Bethlehem High School in Saskatoon.
> 
> Tina Caderna says her daughter, Trinity, was panicked when told about the cancellation, as she is serious about her cheerleading and trains for 30 hours a week.
> 
> "Whoever it was that posted that video has now won because we're making a decision not to go based on the surfacing of that video naming West Edmonton Mall," says Caderna.
> 
> The Regina Public School Division says it had heard from some parents who were concerned about the trip and would not be sending their children to the competition.
> 
> "The school division determined that due to the parents' safety concerns and because we the school division can't ensure the safety of the students travelling to the event, that we would not be participating as a school division," explains Terry Lazarou, supervisor of communications with the school division.
> 
> Caderna, whose daughter also competes on another squad, says she will drive her daughter to Edmonton if she has to.
> 
> "This is something that she's been doing for a long time and it wasn't even an option not to go," she says. "We were going, regardless."
> 
> The Edmonton competition is a qualifier for cheerleaders to go to the 2015 World Cheerleading Championships in Florida in April.
> 
> The association's website says the mall's administration has confirmed "there will be significantly increased mall and police presence in the mall during the competition, although many will be plain-clothes officers."
> 
> It also says the cheerleading association has contracted some additional security of its own, and has been working with an independent company to have onsite first aid and to ensure that its response plans align with West Edmonton Mall's plans.
> 
> The event promises to feature 3,200 athletes representing 180 teams from British Columbia to Ontario.
> 
> (CJME, CJWW)



 Article Link

Ms Tina Caderna is right, when we allow the terrorists to dictate our actions, then they have won without even firing a shot.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Russel Brand is blaming it all on the west.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2978621/Jihadism-corrupt-Britain-s-fault-says-Brand-Comedian-rants-YouTube-society-forcing-young-turn-ISIS.html



There's a reason Katy Perry dumped him.

He's an idiot.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> There's a reason Katy Perry dumped him.
> 
> He's an idiot.



Well, that, and Katy Perry is a girl.


----------



## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, that, and Katy Perry is a girl.



Yes and a rather attractive one!


----------



## Kat Stevens

Way to go, CBC, for phoning up a guy on the watch list so he can get a decent head start.  He'll just go under ground and slip away.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> There's a reason Katy Perry dumped him.
> 
> He's an idiot.



I go to pains not to google him or read/listen to his rants, what little I see on FB is enough to convince me that he does not like himself, so lashes out at the world.


----------



## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, that, and Katy Perry is a girl.




There are times when being old has advantages ... I am, vaguely, aware of who Katy Perry is, but I doubt I would recognize her (and I'm not going to _Google_ her) and I have absolutely no idea who Russell Brand might be, nor do I care.

I sort of remember 1950s movie tough guy Neville Brand 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. But I doubt there is any connection.


----------



## CougarKing

Deport him!

Reuters



> *Canada alleges Pakistani man plotted Toronto attacks*
> 
> TORONTO (Reuters) - A Pakistani man inspired by Islamic State planned to attack the U.S. consulate in Toronto and other targets in the city's financial district, an immigration review body heard on Wednesday, according to media reports.
> 
> *Jahanzeb Malik* was arrested on Monday but has not been charged with any criminal offense, the reports said. Instead, the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) is seeking his continued detention until he can be deported.
> 
> The CBSA said Malik told an undercover police officer he had attended training camps in Libya, and sought to build an explosive device for use in Toronto, the reports said.
> 
> He also claimed to have been in contact with Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S.-born spokesman for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, who was killed in a CIA drone strike in 2011.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Way to go, CBC, for phoning up a guy on the watch list so he can get a decent head start.  He'll just go under ground and slip away.



Isn't that why we should start having immigration exit controls in Canadian airports as well? Doesn't CBSA/CIC only have entry controls (immigration officers who check your passports/visas at entering Canada) at airports but not when you leave? 

CBC



> *Canadian police say man on high-risk watch list fled country*
> 
> By By Andrea Hopkins | Reuters – 2 hours 13 minutes ago
> 
> By Andrea Hopkins
> TORONTO (Reuters) - A Canadian man who was on a police watch list for high-risk travelers has left the country illegally and is being sought for arrest, police said on Wednesday.
> 
> *Mohamed El Shaer is one of about 90 high-risk travelers the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has been watching because of what it says are their ties to foreign fighters or terrorist groups. *He left Canada without a valid passport after being released from jail in mid-January, the RCMP said.
> 
> *El Shaer was charged in June 2014 with making false statements to obtain a passport, but skipped his court dates in August and September and fled the country. He was arrested in November at Toronto's Pearson International Airport when he returned to Canada*. He then pleaded guilty to passport fraud offenses and was sentenced to 90 days in jail, the RCMP said.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Isn't that why we should start having immigration exit controls in Canadian airports as well? Doesn't CBSA/CIC only have entry controls (immigration officers who check your passports/visas at entering Canada) at airports but not when you leave?


I'm curious - are there any jurisdictions already doing this?  I wonder because even though we'd be keeping folks from doing bad things, it wouldn't take long for opponents to paint such a scheme in this light.


----------



## Robert0288

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Isn't that why we should start having immigration exit controls in Canadian airports as well? Doesn't CBSA/CIC only have entry controls (immigration officers who check your passports/visas at entering Canada) at airports but not when you leave?
> 
> CBC



CBSA can and does to export checks on goods leaving the country.  Immigration wise it is difficult.  There are some methods to flag individuals, but if they're not charged with a crime it is legally very difficult.  With the new anti-terrorism law, charges do exist for traveling for/aiding/providing assistance for terrorist activities.  But again you have to have reasonable grounds.  

Also you have to look at Reward VS manpower needed, complaints generated, public wait times etc etc etc...  and that is only at Canadian airports.  The individual can also head south into the US and take a flight out from there.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, signed by 30+ imams & religious scholars:


> *Historic Islamic Edict (Fatwa) on Joining ISIS/ISIL*
> 
> Overwhelming majority of worldwide Islamic scholars have already individually declared ISIS/ISIL un-Islamic “out-siders” (KHAWARIJ) group.  The attached Islamic edict (Fatwa) by the Canadian Muslim Imams and scholars is the first formal Fatwa in the world regarding ISIS/ISIL and its recruitment activities.
> 
> Fatwa is the opinions of Muslim scholars based upon the jurisprudence of Islam.  There are several sources of Islamic jurisprudence but the Holy Qur’an and Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) are the main sources of Islamic Jurisprudence. This fatwa is based upon the clear guidance from Allah in the Holy Qur’an, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the consensus of overwhelming majority of Muslim scholars throughout the fourteen centuries of Islamic history.
> 
> This Fatwa has been issued in order to help Muslims especially youth to understand what Islamic laws and ethics stand for and how ISIS/ISIL is violating those laws and ethics. The consistent and constant misinterpretation and misuse of the verses of the Holy Qur’an and Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) by the ISIS/ISIL to control Muslim lands and people should be exposed and condemned.
> 
> We hope this Fatwa will help Muslims and non-Muslims to understand what Islam requires from its followers. We also hope this Fatwa will help the Canadian government, Ministers and the Media not to link Islam, Muslims and Islamic terminologies e.g. Jihad with the violence and extremism caused by terrorists organizations like ISIS/ISIL.
> 
> We encourage other Muslim Imams and scholars to endorse this Fatwa OR issue their own fatwa in order to help Muslims not to be misguided by ISIS/ISIL ....


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This from the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, signed by 30+ imams & religious scholars:



Good on them.  Too bad that fatwas are more noise than substance as they can be ignored by the faithful if they want to.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Good on them.  Too bad that fatwas are more noise than substance as they can be ignored by the faithful if they want to.


Like this fatwa?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Like this fatwa?



Which only goes to show that Fatwas are like the Hadith and the Qu'ran: The Believer picks and chooses the parts he likes and rejects the ones he doesn't. 

That's what happens with a religion that doesn't have a single central ecclesiastic authority to be final arbiter of the interpretation of the faith (like the Pope is for catholics). Remember, the first schism in Islam occurred right after the passing of the Prophet: it is a fight over his succession as leader of the faith and it hasn't let up since, and it is one of the reason there are, even today, not one but many Islam.


----------



## Kat Stevens

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Good on them.  Too bad that fatwas are more noise than substance as they can be ignored by the faithful if they want to.



But it's a start.  Something has finally and officially been said by an Islamic "authority" on the subject.  Every avalanche starts with a snowball.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> But it's a start.  Something has finally and officially been said by an Islamic "authority" on the subject.  Every avalanche starts with a snowball snowflake.



TFTFY 

I'm with you though. They are starting to accept some ownership of the problem and are starting some corrective action. Now they have to make this a force multiplier for their side.


----------



## OldSolduer

I am in no way a real expert on religion, but did not Christianity haves its issues as well? The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind (not the Monty Python one either).

I figure in 700-800 years Islam will have itself sorted out.


----------



## Remius

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I am in no way a real expert on religion, but did not Christianity haves its issues as well? The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind (not the Monty Python one either).
> 
> I figure in 700-800 years Islam will have itself sorted out.



It still has its issues.


----------



## OldSolduer

Crantor said:
			
		

> It still has its issues.



Agreed.


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Like this fatwa?


There have been numerous fatwas issued from many different countries and sources, both good and bad, that have been both embraced and bronx cheered by the faithful dependant upon their edicts.  One could probably find many hours of entertainment and enlightenment researching them if you had the patience.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It's a step in the correct direction.

Baby steps.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yes, indeed.  I am very pleased to see these gentlemen taking this stand.  Hopefully others will as well.


----------



## CougarKing

More about terrorist recruits who passed through the cracks before:

Canadian Pres



> *US citizen brought from Pakistan to NYC to face charges he supported terror in martyrdom quest*
> 
> NEW YORK, N.Y. - A U.S. citizen who authorities say travelled from Canada to Pakistan to train with al-Qaida in order to carry out jihad has been arrested and charged with conspiring to kill American soldiers, according to court papers unsealed Thursday.
> 
> A bearded Muhanad Mahmoud Al Farekh, wearing light blue prison attire, said nothing and entered no plea during a brief court appearance Thursday afternoon before a federal judge in Brooklyn. He was ordered held without bail
> 
> (...SNIPPED)



And now this one's regretting it? She probably doesn't like cleaning toilets for other jihadi wannabes...  :

Reuters



> *British student who joined Islamic State wants to go home: Turkish MP*
> Reuters
> 
> By Yesmin Dikmen
> 
> ANKARA - A 19-year-old British woman, one of a group of medical students that includes seven Britons, an American and a Canadian thought to have traveled to join the Islamic State group, has told her family she wants to go home, a Turkish lawmaker has said.
> 
> "A female student, 19-year-old Lena, sent a message to her family saying she wanted to go back. We will try tomorrow to bring her and those who are with her back, if we can persuade them," opposition CHP lawmaker
> Mehmet Ali Ediboglu said in an interview with Reuters television late on Wednesday.
> 
> Thousands of foreigners from different countries have joined the ranks of radical groups such as Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, many of them crossing through Turkey.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

An update on the ex-US Army National Guard member who tried to join ISIS:

Military.com



> *Chicago-Area Cousins Indicted in Alleged Terrorist Plot*
> Associated Press | Apr 04, 2015
> 
> CHICAGO — Two suburban Chicago cousins have been indicted on charges of conspiring to help the Islamic State, with one allegedly planning to attack an Illinois military facility and the other allegedly planning to go overseas, federal prosecutors announced Friday.
> 
> *Hasan Edmonds, a 22-year-old member of the Illinois Army National Guard, and his cousin, Jonas Edmonds, 29, were charged with conspiring to provide material support to the Islamic State of Iraq.* The indictment was filed Thursday in U.S. District Court. Prosecutors say the two men will be arraigned April 8.
> 
> The men, who are U.S. citizens and residents of Aurora, were represented at a previous hearing by attorneys from the federal public defender's office who were unavailable to comment Friday on the indictment.
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

A threat prevented? 

Reuters



> *Islamists arrested in Spain eyed attacks on synagogues, authorities-court*
> 
> MADRID (Reuters) - Members of a suspected militant Islamist cell arrested this week in Spain were trying to obtain explosives to bomb a Jewish bookshop in Barcelona, an investigating magistrate said on Friday.
> 
> Other potential targets of the group included synagogues and public buildings in the Catalonia region, the magistrate said in a report after receiving information from prosecutors.
> 
> The report said seven of the 11 people arrested on Wednesday in northeastern Catalonia have been put under formal investigation - a step just short of being charged - and will be held in custody awaiting trial, it added.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## George Wallace

The use of the "Crusades" as an excuse by radical Muslims as justification for their actions is just a sign of their ignorance of history.  Long before the Crusades, Muslims were attacking Christians and other religions across the Middle East and around the Mediterranean, killing or enslaving millions.  Contrary to Islamist claims, the Crusades were few and restricted in area; not massive expansion but attempts to free Christians in the Holy Lands.  The time period of Islamic attacks and expansion is far larger than the time period that covers the Christian response and continues well past the end of the Crusades.  The myth that Jihad is a response to the Crusades has been perpetuated by radical Islam to justify their actions.   All false.

Here is a study done by Dr Bill Warner on Jihad vs Crusades with timelines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The use of the "Crusades" as an excuse by radical Muslims as justification for their actions is just a sign of their ignorance of history.



Seems to me they'll use any bloody excuse to justify the sh1t they do.  History may indeed be the judge of their deeds, but I don't know how much anyone in the future will be paying attention to the truth of the matter as is the case today.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The problem is, some people are believing it and going to join the cause.

Personally, I find it disconcerting that there isn't a more unified, large scale effort to take these POS out as quickly and aggressively as possible.


----------



## OldSolduer

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Personally, I find it disconcerting that there isn't a more unified, large scale effort to take these POS out as quickly and aggressively as possible.



That's a big part of the problem. No one can agree what the best COA is, and we pay far too much attention to the wishy washy lace panty wearers in ivory towers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remove collateral damage from the equation and we can kill all kinds of them and bomb them back to the stone age.

Collateral damage though, is the one thing that no world leader wants to be responsible for, hence the pussy footing bombing and fighting on the fringes.

All we're (Western Society) doing is chasing them around the desert from one place to another with no real effect.

Civilians have been killed in every war, to achieve victory. Why all of a sudden are we worried about it with these guys?


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Remove collateral damage from the equation and we can kill all kinds of them and bomb them back to the stone age.



Ummmm!  They are already in the "Stone Age".  I prefer the term "oblivion".


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Remove collateral damage from the equation and we can kill all kinds of them and bomb them back to the stone age.
> 
> Collateral damage though, is the one thing that no world leader wants to be responsible for, hence the ***** footing bombing and fighting on the fringes.
> 
> All we're (Western Society) doing is chasing them around the desert from one place to another with no real effect.
> 
> Civilians have been killed in every war, to achieve victory. Why all of a sudden are we worried about it with these guys?



Cuz, we have to live (and die) by the LOAC.  I do wonder if the time will come, however, that they push the West over the precipice and we do go ahead and start making glass or a Dresden out of a Raqqa or some other hell hole capital for ISIS types.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

recceguy said:
			
		

> Remove collateral damage from the equation and we can kill all kinds of them and bomb them back to the stone age.
> 
> Collateral damage though, is the one thing that no world leader wants to be responsible for, hence the pussy footing bombing and fighting on the fringes.
> 
> All we're (Western Society) doing is chasing them around the desert from one place to another with no real effect.
> 
> Civilians have been killed in every war, to achieve victory. Why all of a sudden are we worried about it with these guys?



I was going to reply but wasn't sure whether to take the post literally or not.


----------



## cupper

To borrow from another crusade (albeit Catholic vs Cathars)

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius


----------



## CougarKing

More to reinforce what was mentioned earlier about the need for immigration exit controls at our airports/border crossings/seaports:

Reuters



> *Spy agency sees sharp increase in Canadians joining Islamic State*
> 
> By David Ljunggren
> 
> OTTAWA (Reuters) - The number of Canadians leaving to join militant groups in Iraq and Syria such as Islamic State has increased 50 percent in the past few months, a senior security official said on Monday.
> 
> "The terrorist threat to Canada's national security interests has never been as direct or immediate," Michel Coulombe, head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service spy agency, told a Senate committee.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> *The total number of Canadians who have gone to Iraq and Syria to fight has jumped to 75 in the past three or four months from around 50 people*, Coulombe said.
> 
> He did not give a reason for the increase or say how his agency got the information or why it did not stop the Canadians from leaving.
> 
> Last October, Coulombe said about 145 Canadians had traveled abroad to take part in terrorism-related activities during an unspecified period of time.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Kirkhill

> ISIL claims massacre of Ethiopian Christians in Libya


Link



> Unrelenting surge of migrants sees 93 survivors washed ashore in Greece as bodies in capsizing off Libya brought ashore


Link

Anybody have indication connecting the dots on these two events?

It sounds like a "multifer" ((c) Kirkhill) for ISIL

Dead Christians on the beach
"Publicity"
Dead Christians encourage Exodus of Live Christians and Undesirables
Money maker - charge Exodus for a chance on a leaky boat
Boat sinks
More Dead Christians etc
Survivors load up Europe with more "undesirables" (my apologies to the refugees)
Europe feels more guilt
Europe feels more threat
Europe can't decide and unify.

ISIL takes the Rubber.


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Cuz, we have to live (and die) by the LOAC.  I do wonder if the time will come, however, that they push the West over the precipice and we do go ahead and start making glass or a Dresden out of a Raqqa or some other hell hole capital for ISIS types.



You're correct, IMO. No matter what our enemies do and how barbaric they are, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.....as difficult as that may be at times.


----------



## George Wallace

In line with the topic on "Why Europe keeps failing", this may be "Why Islam keeps failing":

https://www.facebook.com/takmeelepakistan/videos/10152611339748143/


----------



## cupper

George Wallace said:
			
		

> In line with the topic on "Why Europe keeps failing", this may be "Why Islam keeps failing":
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/takmeelepakistan/videos/10152611339748143/



Where is this miraculous country where government employees only work 27 minutes a day, and are they hiring?


----------



## George Wallace

cupper said:
			
		

> Where is this miraculous country where government employees only work 27 minutes a day, and are they hiring?



Not in the WEST.....He is talking about Muslim countries.


----------



## CougarKing

More Islamic-inspired terrorists targeting those who criticize their religion:

BBC



> *Gunmen killed at Dallas event on Prophet Muhammad cartoons*
> 
> Two gunmen have been shot dead after opening fire outside a conference on cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in a suburb of Dallas, US police say.
> 
> They drove to the Curtis Culwell Center in Garland as the event was ending, and began shooting at a security officer before being killed by police.
> 
> The bomb squad has been called in to search their vehicle for explosives.
> 
> *The event, organised by a group critical of Islam, included a contest for drawings of the Prophet.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

I like it.  A simple solution to homegrown terrorists.  Just like hunting deer, you use a bait station with some apples or in this case a cartoon contest...   >


----------



## cupper

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I like it.  A simple solution to homegrown terrorists.  Just like hunting deer, you use a bait station with some apples or in this case a cartoon contest...   >



Yeah, but the people woman who is behind the event a little bat poop crazy. Wonder what she thinks about Jade Helm 15?

*Pamela Geller, the incendiary organizer of Texas ‘prophet Muhammad cartoon contest’*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/05/04/why-a-woman-named-pamela-geller-organized-a-prophet-muhammad-cartoon-contest/



> For those unfamiliar with Pamela Geller, she was in the news a few weeks ago for sponsoring an ad campaign across major U.S. cities with anti-Muslim posters saying, among other things, “Killing Jews is Worship that draws us close to Allah.”
> 
> On Sunday, she was in the news again for sponsoring a “Jihad Watch Muhammad Art Exhibit and Cartoon Contest” in Garland, Tex., some 20 miles from Dallas, after which two suspects opened fire on a security guard before being shot and killed by police. Authorities did not immediately link the exhibit and the shootings, but Geller did, with vehemence.
> 
> But Geller drew national attention long before now. In 2009, she became a leader of the movement against a mosque in Manhattan. She told the New York Times she believed the only “moderate Muslim is a secular Muslim” and that when Muslims “pray five times a day … they’re cursing Christians and Jews five times a day.”
> 
> The wealthy housewife-turned-blogger has become one of America’s loudest voices against what she sees as the creeping “Islamization” of America. She is president of the American Freedom Defense Initiative as well as Stop Islamization of America.
> 
> Islamization, she has said, is not something that will happen overnight. “It’s a drip, drip, drip, drip,” she told the New York Times in 2010 as she waged war against the mosque at Ground Zero. “The mosque-ing of the workplace where you’re imposing prayer times on union contracts, non-Muslim workers have to lengthen their day. … These demands are a way of imposing Islam on a secular society.”
> 
> Such wild rhetoric prompted the Southern Poverty Law Center to add her group to its list of “hate groups,” calling her the “anti-Muslim movement’s most visible and flamboyant figurehead.”
> 
> “She’s relentlessly shrill and coarse in her broad-brush denunciations of Islam and makes preposterous claims,” it said.
> 
> Heidi Beirich, head of the Southern Poverty Law Center’s watchdog division, told CNN on Monday that although Geller’s activities may fall within the bounds of the First Amendment, they are considered “cruel and unfair” because “she doesn’t make distinctions” between mainstream Islam and militant factions.
> 
> “They say I’m a racist, Islamophobic, anti-Muslim bigot,” Geller told the Village Voice in 2012. “I’m anti-jihad. … I don’t see how anyone could say I’m anti-Muslim. I love Muslims.”
> 
> Geller portrays herself as emerging straight from Ground Zero.
> 
> When terror struck, she has said, it did something to her. She started a blog. She posed in a bikini to rant about Islam. She advanced conspiracy theories about President Obama — he was the “love child” of Malcolm X, he was once involved with a “crack whore” and, as a child, he was a Muslim and he never renounced Islam.
> 
> But as the mosque controversy receded in memory, so did Pamela Geller. Then in January came the assault by Muslim gunmen on Charlie Hebdo, the French satirical newspaper, which claimed a dozen lives. Geller was back in the public eye.
> 
> In response, she decided to organize Sunday’s “Muhammad Art Exhibit & Contest,” which would award a $10,000 prize to the “winning cartoon” depicting the prophet Muhammad.
> 
> “We decided to have a cartoon contest to show we would not kowtow to violent intimidation and allow the freedom of speech to be overwhelmed by thugs and bullies,” she told The Washington Post in an e-mail.
> 
> Many in Garland objected to the event. Some, including Muslims, said it was blasphemous. Others cited “public safety” concerns. The Council on American-Islamic Relations, however, decided to play it down. “We are not paying any attention to this at all,” Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman, told the Dallas Morning News. “The thing [Geller] hates most is being ignored.”
> 
> But Geller knew what she was getting into and would not be ignored.
> 
> “I expected that people would come to realize how severely the freedom of speech is threatened today, and how much it needs to be defended,” she told The Post. “We were prepared for violence.” Indeed, her group’s Web site said “we know the risks” and that the “exhibit has to be staged.”
> 
> “If we don’t show the jihadists that they will not frighten us into silence,” the site said, “the jihad against freedom will only grow more virulent.”
> 
> As Sunday’s show was coming to an end, two gunmen rolled up in a car and shot an unarmed security guard, police said. Two local police officers fired back. The incident left both gunmen dead, their bodies lying in the street for hours. The security officer was transported to a local hospital, treated and later released.
> 
> Although police said throughout the night that they did not know whether the shooting was related to the cartoon contest, Geller immediately announced that it was, calling it part of the “war on free speech.”
> 
> “The Islamic jihadis are determined to suppress our freedom of speech violently,” she told The Post.
> 
> “They struck in Paris and Copenhagen recently, and now in Texas. This incident shows how much needed our event really was. The freedom of speech is under violent assault here in our nation. The question now before is — will we stand and defend it, or bow to violence, thuggery and savagery?”
> 
> For Geller, it was her own Charlie Hebdo moment.



More From NPR:

*5 Things To Know About The Organizers Of Muhammad Cartoon Contest*

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/05/04/404158281/5-things-to-know-about-the-organizers-of-mohammed-cartoon-contest



> After two gunmen opened fire at the site of a Muhammad cartoon drawing contest Sunday night in Garland, Texas, the American Freedom Defense Initiative, which organized the event, is once again in the spotlight.
> 
> Here are five things you should know about the group.
> 
> 1. Anti-Islam or pro-free speech? The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks extremist groups, lists the American Freedom Defense Initiative as an "active anti-Muslim group."
> 
> The New-York-based AFDI says its goal is simply to "go on the offensive when legal, academic, legislative, cultural, sociological, and political actions are taken to dismantle our basic freedoms and values."
> 
> 2. Pamela Geller is the group's executive director. Again, the SPLC describes her as "the anti-Muslim movement's most visible and flamboyant figurehead."
> 
> Geller runs a website called Atlas Shrugs, which The New York Times says "attacks Islam with a rhetoric venomous enough that PayPal at one point branded it a hate site."
> 
> Geller, of course, doesn't think of it that way. In fact, in a speech delivered just before the contest for cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad opened, she defended her group's actions.
> 
> She referenced the January attack on the offices of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, which was targeted over its own depictions of the prophet.
> 
> Geller said that over the years, she has seen an "abridgment of freedom of speech" and her group was gathered to counter that. She says that limiting speech that offends Muslims will hasten the march toward a Sharia state.
> 
> "We are here for freedom of speech," she said. "Everything else is a smear."
> 
> 3. The group was recording as it received word of the shooting. A police officer in tactical gear delivered the news.
> 
> The crowd inside the Curtis Culwell Center in Garland went quiet, and as the police officer began to leave, someone shouted, "Was the suspect Muslim?" The video is here; we are not embedding it because it does feature drawings of Muhammad.
> 
> 4. The group was last in the news over controversial subway ads. As we reported, the group took the New York Transit Authority to court and won the right to post controversial ads at 10 subway stations.
> 
> The ads read: "In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man." In smaller letters, it added: "Support Israel. Defeat Jihad."
> 
> 5. Geller is also the leader of the group Stop Islamization of America, which often acts in concert with the American Freedom Defense Initiative. If you remember, Stop Islamization of America led the fight against Park 51, a planned Muslim community center not far from the site of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in New York City.
> 
> Geller denounced the project as "the ground zero mega-mosque." On her blog she wrote:
> 
> "What could be more insulting and humiliating than a monster mosque in the shadow of the World Trade Center buildings brought down by Islamic attack?
> 
> "Worse still, the design is a mockery of the World Trade Center building design. Islamic jihad took down those buildings when they attacked, destroyed and murdered 3,000 people in an act of conquest and Islamic supremacism. What better way to mark your territory than to plant a giant mosque on the still-barren land of the World Trade Center? Sort of a giant victory lap. Any decent American, Muslim or otherwise, wouldn't dream of such an insult. It's a stab in eye of America. What's wrong with these people? Have they no heart? No soul?"


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oh, I'm sure she's more or less barking mad to some degree.  Those types usually are, which attract the opposite side of the coin types as was the case this time.  My comment on bait stations was more tongue in cheek, but you gotta admit.  The result was the same.  2 less HGT.


----------



## cupper

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm sure she's more or less barking mad to some degree.  Those types usually are, which attract the opposite side of the coin types as was the case this time.  My comment on bait stations was more tongue in cheek, but you gotta admit.  The result was the same.  2 less HGT.



No argument here as to the outcome.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>The Southern Poverty Law Center

Find a more reputable source for spin.  The SPLC is like an ape in a zoo throwing shit at everyone who displeases it.  (Ben Carson?  Really?)


----------



## cupper

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> (Ben Carson?  Really?)



Really.


----------



## Robert0288

Here's one about the officer who took down the shooters.  Well done.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/05/us/texas-police-shooting-hero/



> Texas shooting: Outgunned traffic officer stopped 2 attackers
> 
> 
> (CNN)—It wasn't a fair fight.
> 
> On one side, you had two men in body armor, toting assault rifles and showing every willingness to open fire now and count their victims later. On the other, you had a security officer -- a traffic officer by day -- with a pistol.
> 
> Somehow, the officer won.
> 
> Authorities have not released the name of the overmatched Garland, Texas, police officer who stopped a pair of gunmen Sunday night outside that city's Curtis Culwell Center, where people had gathered at an event featuring controversial cartoons of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed. But they have described what he did, actions that could be characterized as equal parts skillful, heroic and miraculous.
> 
> U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson lauded the police officer for having "acted quickly and decisively, and thereby likely (saving) a number of innocent lives."
> 
> "He did what he was trained to do," added Garland police spokesman Joe Harn. "And under the fire that he was put under, he did a very good job."
> 
> 
> 
> ISIS threatens attacks against the U.S.
> 
> 
> Precedent for extremist attack
> 
> 
> Authorities knew ahead of time that there could be trouble this weekend in Garland.
> 
> Many Muslims firmly denounce cartoons that depict Mohammed as offensive to their faith. And some extremists have turned to violence to express their opposition, by attacking those behind such drawings, as they did in the January massacre at the Paris offices of Charlie Hebdo magazine and a February incident at a Copenhagen, Denmark, forum attended by Swedish cartoonist Lars Vilks.
> 
> As if the Mohammed cartoons weren't enough to make Sunday's event a target, there was also the presence of its keynote speaker, Geert Wilders. The right-wing Dutch politician is on an al Qaeda hit list for his short film, "Fitna," which pairs disturbing images of terrorist acts with text from the Quran and recordings of incitements by extremist Islamic authorities.
> 
> The potential of a new attack was why the Garland police officer was at the convention center, which the Texas city's school district operates. He had plenty of company: Harn didn't specify the number of law enforcement officers on site, but did say the event's organizers paid $10,000 for beefed-up security.
> 
> "Garland police officers work at the convention center all the time as an off-duty job," Harn said. "And that was the case ... for everyone."
> 
> 
> Gunmen 'started shooting at the police'
> 
> 
> The officer who'd later be praised as a hero was parked in a patrol car in front of the first entrance, from the east, off Naaman Forest Boulevard into the center's parking lot. An unarmed Garland school district security officer sat in the car with him, ostensibly to check the identification of those coming in.
> 
> The event started, by all accounts, without a hitch around 5 p.m. (6 p.m. ET), and for nearly two hours nothing serious happened.
> 
> Until, that is, about 6:50 p.m., when a dark-colored vehicle pulled into the entrance the Garland officer and school district officer were blocking.
> 
> "When that car pulled up and stopped, those officers began to exit that vehicle and two men exited the dark-colored sedan," Harn said. "Both of them had assault rifles, came around the back of the car and started shooting at the police car."
> 
> Gunfire reverberated around the complex, from the two gunmen, and the armed officer.
> 
> A short time later, four members of a nearby SWAT team came in firing their high-powered rifles, according to a source familiar with the officers involved. But by the time they did, the Garland traffic officer was the only one standing.
> 
> The school district officer had been hit in the leg, according to Harn.
> 
> And the two attackers were already down on the ground by their car, having been shot by the traffic officer.
> 
> Within 15 seconds, the chaotic eruption was basically over.
> 
> 
> Police vet: 'You cannot downplay what he did'
> 
> 
> How?
> 
> He had a .45-caliber Glock pistol, a much less powerful weapon than the rifles used by the attackers, who have since been identified by federal law enforcement officials as Elton Simpson and Nadir Soofi.
> 
> "There's no advantage for a handgun over an assault rifle," said Dick Fairburn, a veteran law enforcement officer who is a columnist for PoliceOne.com. "An assault rifle has more distance, more accuracy, more power, more penetration.
> 
> "You cannot downplay what he did there."
> 
> Granted, the officer likely had on some sort of protective jacket. But Tom Fuentes, a former FBI assistant director and current CNN contributor, said that the thin Kevlar vests often worn by police would be useless against an assault rifle round that "will go through that like a hot knife through butter."
> 
> The same can't be said for bullets coming from the officer's pistol: The attackers' body armor likely would have blocked those.
> 
> Thus, aiming for the suspects' torso -- as officers are trained first to do, since it is their biggest possible target -- is no longer an option. But still, somehow, the traffic officer managed to down both men in seconds.
> 
> "It speaks to his skill level," Fairburn, who is a firearms trainer for law enforcement, said of the Garland officer. "In terms of weaponry, he was far outgunned. But he was far better trained."
> 
> 
> Ex-FBI official: Naming cop could make him a target
> 
> 
> Plenty of examples exist of officers who aren't so cool under fire, or at least not as accurate.
> 
> For all the mandatory firearms and other training police officers undergo -- from stationary targets to computer simulations to live exercises -- "you also have to have the composure and the concentration" to hit your target, Fuentes notes. It's one thing to aim at a cardboard target at a gun range; it's another to shoot straight when the targets are shooting back with assault rifles.
> 
> Clearly, the Garland police officer had his wits about him. Both Fuentes and Fairburn point out that hitting one suspect could be an accident, but not two.
> 
> So who is this officer? Fuentes believes we may not find out anytime soon because, the moment you identify him, you also put a target on his back (and perhaps those of his family members) that will stay there for years.
> 
> "I think that's why they're not (going) to parade him out," the ex-FBI official said. "...You have one heroic cop who kills two (Islamist extremist) soldiers. He needs to be cautious about not celebrating in the end zone."
> 
> Still, just because the officer hasn't been named, doesn't mean he hasn't been praised.
> 
> Zach Horn, a lawyer for the officers involved, said that if it weren't for their actions, "we'd be hearing a different kind of story."
> 
> "They faced death head-on," Horn said. "And, with incredible skill and bravery, (they) were able to save a lot of people."


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, back in Canada - this from the RCMP Info-machine:


> The Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET) made a series of arrests last weekend in order to disrupt the plans of ten young Montréal residents suspected of wanting to leave the country to join jihadist groups. The arrests took place at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Airport.
> 
> No charges have been laid at this time, and the investigation is ongoing. Consequently, the RCMP is unable to disclose the identity of the persons who were arrested or any information that led to their arrests. We can say, however, that the families and friends of the young persons have been met by investigators. All ten young persons arrested had their passports confiscated.
> 
> These are very difficult times for the relatives and loved ones of the persons arrested, as the decision to leave the country was not that of the family, but of a single family member.    As a result, family members often find themselves at a complete loss and unable to understand the decision made by the youth.  It would be desirable for the media to respect the privacy of family members and friends in their search for information ....


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting, that a large number of recent persons of interest have also come from the Montreal area.  It would now seem highly likely that there must be a recruiter or two operating in the Montreal area mosques.  Either the local Imans are not doing anything to dissuade young impressionable minds or are just complacent, allowing subversive elements to operate in their mosques.


----------



## Old Sweat

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting, that a large number of recent persons of interest have also come from the Montreal area.  It would now seem highly likely that there must be a recruiter or two operating in the Montreal area mosques.  Either the local Imans are not doing anything to dissuade young impressionable minds or are just complacent, allowing subversive elements to operate in their mosques.



Whether there is any linkage or not, Montreal also was the home of the family that murdered the senior wife and the three daughters of wife two by drowning in the locks at Kingston Mills.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Whether there is any linkage or not, Montreal also was the home of *the family that murdered the senior wife and the three daughters of wife two by drowning in the locks at Kingston Mills*.


And it appears the father's been .... busy .... while in detention, too.


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And it appears the father's been .... busy .... while in detention, too.



Shame he couldn't meet up with some nice Aryan Nations types in the shower...  >  That might simmer him down.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting, that a large number of recent persons of interest have also come from the Montreal area.  It would now seem highly likely that there must be a recruiter or two operating in the Montreal area mosques.  Either the local Imans are not doing anything to dissuade young impressionable minds or are just complacent, allowing subversive elements to operate in their mosques.



this book has a good breakdown on the recruiting methodology http://www.amazon.ca/Radical-Journey-Out-Islamist-Extremism/dp/0762791365


----------



## The Bread Guy

An interesting "what if?" in the latest edition of IS's magazine "Dabiq" (full issue can be downloaded from non-terrorist site here) ....


> ".... Let me throw a hypothetical operation onto the table. The Islamic State has billions of dollars in the bank, so they call on their wilāyah in Pakistan to purchase a nuclear device through weapons dealers with links to corrupt officials in the region. The weapon is then transported overland until it makes it to Libya, where the mujāhidīn move it south to Nigeria. Drug shipments from Columbia bound for Europe pass through West Africa, so moving other types of contraband from East to West is just as possible. The nuke and accompanying mujāhidīn arrive on the shorelines of South America and are transported through the porous borders of Central America before arriving in Mexico and up to the border with the United States. From there it’s just a quick hop through a smuggling tunnel and hey presto, they’re mingling with another 12 million “illegal” aliens in America with a nuclear bomb in the trunk of their car.
> 
> Perhaps such a scenario is far-fetched but it’s the sum of all fears for Western intelligence agencies and it’s infinitely more possible today than it was just one year ago ...."


Russian media highlights it here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Greeeeeeeeeeeat ....


> Britons who want to join ISIS fighting in Syria are travelling via Canada to avoid detection, it was revealed.
> 
> Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said the tactics used by radicalised extremists to escape being caught by police were becoming 'increasingly sophisticated'.
> 
> He warned it was a 'continuing struggle' for the security services to keep tabs on people from the UK determined to travel to the region.
> 
> Some 700 British citizens are thought to have travelled to Syria and Iraq and there are growing fears about them returning to the UK to plot terror attacks here.
> 
> Airlines operating in the UK have been told to check all teenagers boarding flights to Turkey about whether they plan to join ISIS under new plans.
> 
> It followed the case of three south London schoolgirls - Kadiza Sultana, Amira Abase, and Shamima Begum - who flew out of Britain to join ISIS.
> 
> But it has emerged that to get  around the checks, some fighters are travelling to other countries before flying to Turkey and crossing the border into Syria.
> 
> Speaking in the Commons, Mr Hammond said: 'People that are trying to take this journey are becoming increasingly sophisticated.
> 
> *'I have seen reports recently of journeys which are routed via Canada to get to Turkey and then into Syria rather than going directly from the UK.* So it is a continuing struggle.' ....


More here


----------



## a_majoor

Why not tag them and then let them carry on to their "Caliphate". We get rid of a noxious problem at home, and at the same time they can "help" locating terror cells and training camps in Syria and Iraq before they play "catch" with a JDAM, which sounds like a "Twofer" to me.


----------



## a_majoor

If *we* ever expect to keep "lone wolf" attackers at bay, then *we* need to become a society of sheepdogs, willing to work in packs of our own against these terrorists. The takedown of the gunman on the train is one example, and there have been some in the past (the downing of the last of the 9-11 flights is probably the best example):

http://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20150825221115.aspx



> *Terror and Surprise on the Paris Express*
> by Austin Bay
> August 25, 2015]
> 
> Last week's attempted attack on a high-speed train traveling from Holland to Paris via Belgium involved successful concealment, up to a point. At that point, the passengers surprised the terrorist.
> 
> Islamist terrorist Ayoub El Khazzani managed to evade security agency surveillance in at least five countries. Despite strict Belgian and French gun- and ammunition-control laws, not only did Khazzani acquire an AK-47 assault rifle, but when the moment came to wage armed jihad, he successfully evaded rail station security and slipped his AK with 200 rounds of ammo on board an elite trans-European express.
> 
> Wait, police spokesmen are wont to say, in a free society the cops can't be everywhere all the time. Too true. And when targeting free societies, terrorists bank on it. Concealed in the open may be an oxymoron. Yet terrorists do conceal themselves in open societies by passing as peaceful members of that society.
> 
> Khazzani passed as peaceful. He intended to surprise the train passengers, and he did, sort of. Reliance on surprise makes terror attacks a type of ambush. By definition, in an ambush, attackers strike from concealed positions. In a military ambush, where soldiers ambush soldiers, the attackers must remain concealed until the second they trigger the ambush. If surprise is lost and the ambush is discovered, the ambushers lose their advantage.
> 
> Khazzani muffed the transition from concealment to attack. A French banker, identified as Damien A., saw him in a lavatory with his weapon. He grabbed at Khazzani. Khazzani ran into the rail car where passenger Mark Moogalian (an American living in France) accosted him.
> 
> Now Khazzani is targeting unarmed civilians. Blown ambush? Shouting? No problem. He has firepower. He shot Moogalian.
> 
> But other passengers had more surprises. Instead of cowering, they responded heroically. First one, U.S. Air Force Airman 1st Class Spencer Stone, got to Khazzani, and then a second, and then four were on him. He could not aim the weapon. In the hand-to-hand struggle, he pulled a pair of box cutters and wounded Stone. He drew a pistol. But Stone's friends, Oregon Army National Guard Specialist Alek Skarlatos and California college student Anthony Sadler, kept battering him. British businessman Chris Norman joined the fight. They disarmed and pinned Khazzani. To emphasize his disapproval, Skarlatos used the AK's muzzle to make repetitive metal impressions on Khazzani's head. Did the message get through? Khazzani was a finger twitch from eternity.
> 
> The en masse quick physical assault on Khazzani was somewhat like a tactic the military calls an instantaneous counterattack on a close-in ambush. In the ambush's kill zone, the defenders have little chance, and so they instantly turn and assault the ambushers. Penetrating the ambush positions brings the battle to the ambushers. In the resulting melee, the ambushers lose the advantage of surprise.
> 
> It takes confident, trained and well-led combat units to respond that coolly and cohesively. But the comparison is instructive. Sadler, Stone and Skarlatos are lifelong friends, a cohesive group of people who depend on one another. That's a unit. Stone and Skarlatos have military training. Skarlatos pulled a tour in Afghanistan. He told authorities that going after Khazzani "wasn't a conscious decision. ... We just acted." Stone said Skarlatos said, "Go get 'im." He and Skarlatos went; Sadler followed. Norman said he fled until he saw the three Americans tackle the gunman. Courage instilled courage. Now there were four.
> 
> Stone is an Air Force medic. He staunched Moogalian's bleeding and saved his life.
> 
> Can you train people to respond en masse to a terrorist attack? Sure. Group action by unarmed civilians can stop a lone gunman. A suicide bomber is another matter. Best be in a state that allows people to carry personal firearms. But an effective group response to any threat requires leadership, and in most situations, that means leadership by example. On the Paris express, I count five examples of leadership. One leader jostled in the lavatory. One gave warning. Three struck in a pack. Norman had the guts to follow. Free people in free societies can surprise you.


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting development in Repentigny, Quebec:

http://www.cjad.com/cjad-news/2015/09/06/watch-jihadist-stickers-vandalize-dozens-of-repentigny-cars


----------



## PuckChaser

The language gestapo in Quebec will be happy to note the jihadis are using French.


----------



## cupper

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The language gestapo in Quebec will be happy to note the jihadis are using French.



Well, they wouldn't want to be breaking the laws now would they. ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Update on the "Toronto 18" story.  (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Canada revokes citizenship of Toronto 18 ringleader using new anti-terror law
> The National Post
> Stewart Bell | September 26, 2015 9:40 AM ET
> More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP
> 
> TORONTO — The government used its new power to revoke the citizenship of convicted terrorists for the first time on Friday against the imprisoned ringleader of the 2006 al-Qaida-inspired plot to detonate truck bombs in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Zakaria Amara was notified in a letter sent to the Quebec penitentiary where is he serving a life sentence that he is no longer a Canadian. He still holds citizenship in Jordan and could be deported there following his release from prison.
> 
> “He’s Toronto 18,” a source said, using the name by which Amara’s terrorist group was known. “They plotted terrorist attacks against downtown Toronto, they were convicted. They should not be citizens.” The decision was made by a senior official at Citizenship and Immigration Canada.
> 
> Legislation that came into force in May, over the opposition of the NDP and Liberals, allows the government to revoke the citizenship of Canadians who have been convicted of terrorism offences — provided they hold citizenship in a second country.
> 
> The law also applies to dual citizens convicted of treason and spying for foreign governments, as well as members of armed groups at war against Canada. A little more than half-a-dozen Canadians have been notified so far that the government was considering revoking their citizenship.
> 
> Although the revocation process began in June, well before the federal election was called, the decision to strip Amara of his citizenship comes during a close campaign in which the Conservatives have tried to distinguish themselves from the NDP and Liberals with a platform that emphasizes national security.
> 
> NDP leader Tom Mulcair has said he would scrap the citizenship revocation law, and on Friday Liberal leader Justin Trudeau repeated his pledge to repeal it. “The bill creates second-class citizens,” he said. “No elected official should ever have the exclusive power to revoke Canadian citizenship. Under a Liberal government there will be no two-tiered citizenship. A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.”
> 
> The British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, together with former Toronto 18 member Asad Ansari, are challenging the citizenship revocation law in Federal Court, arguing it is unconstitutional and creates “two-tiered” citizenship by treating naturalized Canadians differently than those born here.
> 
> But the Conservatives have said the law would target only the most serious cases. Among those who have received formal notice they may lose their citizenship is Hiva Alizadeh, an Iranian-Canadian who plotted al-Qaida bombings in Canada.
> 
> Born in Jordan and baptized an Orthodox Christian, Amara moved to Saudi Arabia when he was four. He converted to Islam at age 10 after his friends told him he would go to hell if he didn’t. From age 10 to 13, he lived in his mother’s home country Cyprus until immigrating to Canada in 1997.
> 
> A university dropout who worked as a gas jockey in Mississauga, Ont., Amara emerged in 2005 as one of two leaders of a terrorist group that trained on a rural property north of the city and, inspired by al-Qaida, began planning attacks they thought would convince Canada to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan.
> 
> Amara led a faction that was acquiring the components for large truck bombs that were to be detonated during the morning rush hour outside the Toronto Stock Exchange and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service office beside the CN Tower. An Ontario military base was also to be attacked.
> 
> Justice Bruce Durno called the plot “spine chilling” and said “the potential for loss of life existed on a scale never before seen in Canada. It was almost unthinkable without the suggestion that metal chips would be put in the bombs. Had the plan been implemented it would have changed the lives of many, if not all Canadians forever.”
> 
> In a letter produced at his sentencing, Amara vowed to transform “from a man of destruction to a man of construction.” He asked the judge to “not close the door and give me a chance that one day I’ll be able to pay for the moral debt that I still owe.”
> 
> While he was serving his sentence, however, the Conservatives brought in the new citizenship law. In accordance with the revocation system, Amara was given 60 days to make submissions about Canada’s plan to take away his citizenship. His arguments were considered by the official making the decision. He can appeal to the courts.
> 
> The decision capped a busy week in counter-terrorism in which: a Toronto youth was arrested on a peace bond over his alleged online activities in support of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant; two extremists who plotted to attack a Toronto-bound passenger train were handed life sentences; and a Calgary man in ISIL was charged with terrorism offences.
> 
> Two Pakistanis arrested in Toronto on national security grounds — one of them for plotting a suicide bombing in the downtown financial district and at the United States consulate — were scheduled to be deported as early as Sunday.
> 
> National Post with files from Canadian Press
> 
> • Email: sbell@nationalpost.com




Video and more links on LINK.


I really do not agree with Mulcair and Trudeau both taking the path that they are proposing.  If a refugee/migrant/immigrant to Canada is a threat to Canadian society as a criminal or worse, as a terrorist, they should be removed from our society and sent back from whence they came.  Imprisonment is only a short term solution in removing them from our streets, and also may offer them the opportunity (not the Edmonton spelling1  ;D ) to spread their criminal or barbaric philosophies.  I believe, that in the case above, we are seeing the best solution.



__________________________________________
1  http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonton-mayor-not-happy-with-typo-on-city-signs-1.2582182


----------



## jollyjacktar

Excellent to see this happen.


----------



## George Wallace

Marine Le Pen for standing up in Brussels and saying what we all know.

https://www.facebook.com/1609776849267928/videos/1646663102245969/?fref=nf

If you don't access FaceBook, here is the LiveLeak link:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a30_1442946771


----------



## jollyjacktar

:goodpost:


----------



## CougarKing

A terrorist gets his due after attacking Australian police.

Reuters



> *Australian officials say Sydney police HQ shooting 'linked to terrorism'*
> Fri Oct 2, 2015 9:58pm EDT
> 
> By Lincoln Feast
> 
> SYDNEY (Reuters) - Australian police said on Saturday they believed the shooting of a police worker by a 15-year-old boy in Sydney the previous day was "linked to terrorism", the latest in a series of attacks blamed on radicalized youth.
> 
> Australia, a staunch ally of the United States and its battle against Islamic militants in Iraq and Syria, has been on heightened alert for attacks by home-grown radicals since last year.
> 
> *The teenager was shot dead by police on Friday afternoon after he gunned down, at close range, a police employee leaving the headquarters of the New South Wales Police, police and witnesses said.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> Police said they had identified the gunman as coming from an *Iraqi-Kurdish background*, and having been born in Iran.
> 
> "We believe his actions were politically motivated and therefore linked to terrorism," New South Wales Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione told reporters.
> 
> (...EDITED)


----------



## CougarKing

Belgium on a high alert against terrorism:

Defense News



> *Arsenal Discovered as Belgium Capital Enters Lockdown*
> By Martin Banks 11:05 a.m. EST November 21, 2015
> BELGIUM-ATTACKS-ALERT
> 
> A terrorist arsenal has been discovered during overnight searches in a suburb of Brussels.
> 
> Chemicals and explosives were among the items found in the Molenbeek suburb, a rundown neighborhood where Paris attacker Abdelhamid Abaaoud was suspected of operating a terrorist cell.
> 
> The find came as Belgium’s capital entered a security lockdown. The government has warned that there could be a repeat of Paris-style attacks in the country’s capital, prompting the closure of subways in Brussels and the deployment of heavily armed police and soldiers.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Not surprised that the barbarians within the gates have stashes here and there like this.  

There were six British suspects stopped trying to take used ambulances and gear "somewhere" too.  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3329085/Six-British-men-driving-three-old-ambulances-arrested-Belgium-seen-near-Esso-petrol-station-used-fugitive-terrorist-Salah-Abdeslam.html


----------



## CougarKing

A bad idea to let them have access to social media:

Yahoo News



> *The Latest: Spain arrests 2 inmates suspected of spreading Islamic State propaganda*
> By The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 12 minutes ago
> 
> PARIS - The latest developments regarding the fight against the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq: All times local:
> 
> 4:30 p.m.
> 
> Spain's Interior Ministry says police have arrested two inmates on suspicion that they used their prison leave to spread propaganda for the Islamic State group.
> *
> A ministry statement said a 24-year-old Moroccan was arrested Friday while on leave from Martutene prison in the northern city of San Sebastian. A 32-year-old Spaniard was arrested in the prison. The ministry said the two are serving sentences for common crimes.*
> 
> The statement said they held meetings with people outside the prison at which they showed video recordings of IS executions and attacks and praised the group's actions. One of the inmates posted a video on social networks showing him burning his passport.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## daftandbarmy

ISIS in America

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/isis-in-america/418857/


----------



## mariomike

06 Dec 2015
The Telegraph UK

London

"Tube station 'machete' attack"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12035552/Leytonstone-London-tube-underground-machete-attack-terrorism.html

"Police are treating the incident, which happened around 7pm, as a suspected terrorist attack after the man was heard shouting “this is for Syria” before slashing at commuters."


----------



## a_majoor

How Western "media" was cowed by the Islamists. So long as they continue to spin "narratives" and hide real news items like this, the population will not have a clear understanding of the threat we face:

http://nypost.com/2015/12/03/the-video-of-revelers-cheering-911-that-no-one-got-to-see/



> *The video of revelers cheering 9/11 that no one got to see*
> By Harry Litman December 3, 2015 | 8:45pm
> Modal Trigger The video of revelers cheering 9/11 that no one got to see
> A flag marks the name of a loved one at the 9/11 Memorial North Pool. Photo: AP
> 
> If Donald Trump believes he saw videos of revelers celebrating after the Sept. 11 attacks that in fact never were broadcast, he’s in large company. Many of us believe we recall seeing similar footage of Palestinians living in the West Bank exulting in the wake of the attacks.
> 
> But implausible as it sounds, those recollections are faulty, and the actual footage has never been seen, because a major US news organization has kept it under wraps for the last 14 years.
> 
> Here are the facts, all of which are matters of public record. On the afternoon of Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of jubilant Palestinians took to the streets, chanting “God is great,” firing automatic weapons and handing out sweets to passers-by. The largest demonstration took place in Nablus in the West Bank, where some 3,000 marchers danced and cheered as guerrillas fired assault rifles and grenades into the air.
> 
> Many journalists were on the scene, but they were forcibly detained in a hotel by armed Palestinian security forces to prevent coverage of the rally. One cameraman — a freelance AP reporter — nevertheless managed to film some of the celebration.
> 
> The next day, members of Tanzim, the military arm of Fatah, physically threatened the cameraman and warned AP not to air the material. A cabinet secretary for the Palestinian government told the Associated Press that the government could not “guarantee the life” of the cameraman if the film were broadcast.
> 
> The Palestinian information minister explained to the Washington Post that the coercive tactics “were not against the freedom of the press but in order to ensure our national security and our national interest. We will not permit a few kids here or there to smear the real face of the Palestinians.”
> 
> The threat worked. After initially declining to confirm the incident, the AP bureau chief in Jerusalem acknowledged the intimidation and the news organization’s capitulation to it. On Sept. 14, 2001, the news organization made known that “in light of the danger,” it wouldn’t release the video for world broadcast because “the safety of our staff is paramount. At this point we believe there to be a serious threat to our staff if the video is released.”
> 
> Fourteen years later, the historic footage from 9/11 remains inaccessible to public view.
> 
> But wait a minute. Wasn’t video of the West Bank celebrations transmitted around the world? In fact, the footage that many people remember consisted of a few still shots and brief clips of other, far smaller rallies in Lebanon and East Jerusalem. In contrast to the riotous celebrations in Nablus and elsewhere, these were possible to explain away as the repugnant response of “a few kids here or there.”
> 
> The suppressed video isn’t simply a historical artifact. The episode contains current lessons for the reliability of reporting from the Middle East, where the propaganda war can be every bit as intense and ruthless as ground combat. And the passionate anti-Western views it puts on vivid display appear to remain in full force.
> 
> A recent examination of more than 300 public-opinion polls among Palestinians revealed widely held views about terrorist attacks on Israel and the West that would be stunning even among Israel’s fiercest critics in the United States. A majority of respondents were unwilling to describe the 9/11 attacks — or, for that matter, the Madrid train explosions in 2004 and the London underground explosions in 2005 — as “terrorism.”
> 
> Fifty-nine percent responded that suicide bombings were often or sometimes justified. A similar percentage agreed with the statement “US involvement in the region justifies armed operations against the US everywhere.”
> 
> The continued suppression of the footage from 9/11 is a blot on the free press that, 14 years after the events, should long since have been removed. It was discreditable in the first instance for the AP to have capitulated to the shakedown, but whatever exigency it could point to in 2001 cannot justify a permanent gap in the documentary account of the worst domestic attack in US history.
> 
> These searing images belong in the public record, not in the closed video vault of a cowed news agency.
> 
> Harry Litman, the former US attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvnia, is a lawyer and teacher.


----------



## Sk94

Shut down All Wahabbi Mosques. Its this disgusting barbaric sect of Islam that taints it for the rest of the 1.4 billion


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Nice Thuc., but totally irrelevant.

That article has more to do with vindicating Trump (even though it fails in the end) than the threat of  Terrorism in the West.

It teaches us nothing. BTW, were there wild celebrations in many Muslim countries after 9/11? Yes, we all saw them on our TV's (maybe not in the US but definitely here), and it was mostly in those countries that uphold the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

But Trump's point was that he personally saw "thousands and thousands" of Muslim in the United States celebrating in the streets after 9/11. And that is pure BS. Were there American Muslims who were happy at the razing of the Twin Towers? Probably, but they did not manifest their happiness in public, nor were there any news report showing it. In fact, I don't think that any Muslim happy with 9/11 living in the United States would have been stupid enough to go out on the street and celebrate: They likely would have been shot on the spot for "treason" by their fellow Americans (and for good cause in my opinion).


----------



## Sk94

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

This type of sect is a _branch_ of Sunni, taking the original sect and pushing it to the extreme, either you believe in what our way is or die. Taking out the funding should be the main concern if it already isn't
, 
------

edit- and to the brother above I come from a Muslim family and remember to this day how shocked and heart broken my parents were


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Nice Thuc., but totally irrelevant.
> 
> That article has more to do with vindicating Trump (even though it fails in the end) than the threat of  Terrorism in the West.
> 
> It teaches us nothing. BTW, were there wild celebrations in many Muslim countries after 9/11? Yes, we all saw them on our TV's (maybe not in the US but definitely here), and it was mostly in those countries that uphold the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.
> 
> But Trump's point was that he personally saw "thousands and thousands" of Muslim in the United States celebrating in the streets after 9/11. And that is pure BS. Were there American Muslims who were happy at the razing of the Twin Towers? Probably, but they did not manifest their happiness in public, nor were there any news report showing it. In fact, I don't think that any Muslim happy with 9/11 living in the United States would have been stupid enough to go out on the street and celebrate: They likely would have been shot on the spot for "treason" by their fellow Americans (and for good cause in my opinion).



My wife once tried to explain to me about all the baying crowds you see in some of the news footage, hooting and hollering about this and that for the cameras.  She said, that they're mostly uneducated pesants who don't really know and better and only know what they are led to believe by the sting pullers higher up and I shouldn't really be pissed at them as they don't really have a clue.  It's the men behind curtains that the anger should be directed at.

For those moderates here in the west, I can only imagine their dread at seeing what has come to pass in Paris and California and waiting for the backlash.  I'm sure there are some who do approve of what's happened, but they'd be suicidal to be out in the streets dancing about it.  Much like some Iraqi expats who were initially cheering on Saddam when he invaded Kuwait in 90.  They quickly STFU and went back into the woodwork when there was public reaction to their approvals.


----------



## Remius

Sk94 said:
			
		

> Shut down All Wahabbi Mosques. Its this disgusting barbaric sect of Islam that taints it for the rest of the 1.4 billion



Along those lines...but how do you shut down the ones in places like Pakistan?

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/calif-shooter-attended-madrassa-founded-by-scholar-living-in-canada-1.2689762


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> Along those lines...but how do you shut down the ones in places like Pakistan?



Drones.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Drones.



You could have said Space Marines.  Neither is likely to happen.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Remius said:
			
		

> You could have said Space Marines.  Neither is likely to happen.



Not yet.

Someday, someone, somewhere will grow a great big set and say "Fuck public opinion, allies concerns and collateral damage. Give me that football."


----------



## Remius

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not yet.
> 
> Someday, someone, somewhere will grow a great big set and say "frig public opinion, allies concerns and collateral damage. Give me that football."



I wish.  I posited once to some friends that the US should have dropped a tac nuke on the taliban after 911. It would have sent a strong message not to eff with the US.  France should have dropped something on Raqqa.


----------



## CougarKing

A Canadian connection in the recent San Bernardino massacre?

Canadian Press



> *Canadian school concerned about being linked to California shooter*
> The Canadian PressBy Diana Mehta
> 
> ORONTO - The Canadian branch of an Islamic foundation distanced itself Monday from the woman who carried out last week's mass shooting in California following reports she had attended one of the group's schools in Pakistan.
> *
> The Al Huda Institute Canada condemned the attack by Tashfeen Malik and her husband — which left 14 people dead and 21 wounded — and expressed concerns about a possible backlash against the foundation, which has been criticized for teaching a particularly conservative strain of Islam.*
> 
> "Religious conservatism is one thing. You have people who are conservative in all faiths," said Imran Haq, the institute's operations manager. "Extremism is something completely separate and there is absolutely no strain of that here."
> 
> On Monday evening CBC's The National reported that four young women who went to the Al Huda school near Toronto left to support ISIL in Syria, or tried to.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The Al Huda Institute Canada condemns tomorrows terrorist attack.


----------



## Sk94

Remius said:
			
		

> Along those lines...but how do you shut down the ones in places like Pakistan?
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/calif-shooter-attended-madrassa-founded-by-scholar-living-in-canada-1.2689762



I wish I had an answer to that question. The most I'm willing to do is protect our soil and people


----------



## a_majoor

The French authorities are making disturbing finds. This can only lead to more backlash against Islamic migrants in general, and the assimilated Islamic enclaves in France in particular:

http://hotair.com/archives/2015/12/09/while-we-fight-over-trump-france-closes-3-mosques-finds-hundreds-of-weapons/



> *While we fight over Trump, France closes 3 mosques, finds hundreds of weapons*
> posted at 2:41 pm on December 9, 2015 by Jazz Shaw
> 
> The French have adopted what is clearly a no-nonsense attitude toward radical Islamist terrorism since the Paris attacks and they’re not taking their foot off the gas. As the United States continues to debate over “tone” and how to balance religious liberty and tolerance against domestic security, Francois Hollande’s forces have “cut a few corners” on those subjects and just begun shutting down mosques. At least three of the Muslim houses of worship have been closed already and law enforcement has found a trove of disturbing items among the haul. (Speisa)
> 
> 
> Police investigating the Paris terror attacks have shut down three mosques in a series of raids to close the net on Islamic extremists, the Express reports.
> 
> Police in France also arrested the owner of a revolver found during Wednesday’s raid, France’s Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said.
> 
> Security officials found jihadist documents at the mosque where yesterday’s raids took place.
> 
> They have placed nine people under house arrest. Another 22 have been banned from leaving the country Mr Cazeneuve said.
> 
> In additon to the mosques, the French have kicked in the doors on 2,235 homes and taken 232 people into custody or placed them on house arrest. More than three hundred weapons were discovered at the mosques. Tom Porter at the International Business Times reports that the trove included 7.62mm ammunition, Kalashnikov rifles and terrorist propaganda videos. And they’re only just getting started. (See edit below)
> 
> 
> Hassan El Alaoui, one of France’s chief imams, told Al Jazeera that French authorities were likely to close down more than 100 mosques in the wake of the Paris attacks.
> 
> “According to official figures and our discussions with the interior ministry, between 100 and 160 more mosques will be closed because they are run illegally without proper licences, they preach hatred, or use takfiri speech,” he said.
> 
> Takfiris are those who accuse fellow Muslims who do not share their hard-line interpretation of the faith of apostasy, and is often used as a pejorative term.
> 
> Reports like this likely present a rather awkward challenge for observers in America who are used to a large number of rights which the government isn’t supposed to violate. It’s easy to cheer for the French rooting out that many terrorists and their supporters and removing their ability to launch attacks, but the methods being employed will probably give many Americans pause. First of all, simply having a weapon of any sort is tantamount to a conviction there, so the idea of badgering “law abiding gun owners” is sort of an unknown concept in Paris. And with our First Amendment rights, the idea of armed, uniformed men kicking in the doors of churches of any type and hauling the congregants out to a wagon makes us recoil.
> 
> But now even some of their own Imams are estimating that more than 150 more mosques may be closed. France really isn’t all that big… how many mosques do they have? To be fair to the French, though, what else are they supposed to do? They’re physically much closer to the home turf of several terrorists groups and thanks to the EU’s open border policies it’s far easier for the bad guys to move around. They’re dealing with an infestation and it needs to be stamped out. The methods probably appear harsh, but they’re doing what they need to do in order to survive.
> 
> Exit question: how will all of Europe’s leaders who screamed about Donald Trump suggesting a temporary ban on Muslim immigration react to this news?
> 
> EDIT: Original post incorrectly implied that all the weapons were found in a mosque. The total figure included raids on multiple sites.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The French authorities are making disturbing finds. This can only lead to more backlash against Islamic migrants in general, and the assimilated Islamic enclaves in France in particular: :gottree:
> 
> http://hotair.com/archives/2015/12/09/while-we-fight-over-trump-france-closes-3-mosques-finds-hundreds-of-weapons/



Quite honestly, I'm surprised someone hasn't retaliated by shooting up a Mosque, or going after Muslims.  It may yet come to that.


----------



## a_majoor

Reports do surface in the blogosphere about incidents which are not reported in the mainstream press. A mosque in the UK was torched, and across Europe, many refugee reception centers seem to spontaneously combust shortly after the government announces the gym, hanger, warehouse etc, has been identified as a reception or housing center. If you imagine Valcatier or CFB Kingston going up in flames hours after the government announced they could be used as refugee housing then you would get the idea. And of course there is a multinational force assembled on the Hungarian border (Polish, Slovakian, Romanian and Hungarian police and military personnel are involved).

So conditions are heating up, and of course nativist and national socialist parties in Europe are gaining a lot of electoral traction becasue of themigrant issue as well.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thucydides said:
			
		

> .... If you imagine Valcatier or CFB Kingston going up in flames hours after the government announced they could be used as refugee housing then you would get the idea ....


I still can't imagine because I'm still trusting both Canadians and security measures in place at these two _military_ bases.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I still can't imagine because I'm still trusting both Canadians and security measures in place at these two _military_ bases.



You have a lot more faith in our security measures than I do.   [


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I still can't imagine because I'm still trusting both Canadians and security measures in place at these two _military_ bases.



I too trust our heavily armed security forces, high chain linked fences, closed circuit monitors, motion sensors and  aggressive guard dogs.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I don't believe they won't have already accounted for the possibility civic unrest and discord in their ops planning.  Also, I believe in general Canadians (at this juncture) will accept, adapt, evolve and move on.  I'm with Tony.  There won't be crowds of pesants with torches and pitchforks streaming towards Valcatraz or Kingston.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I don't believe they won't have already accounted for the possibility civic unrest and discord in their ops planning.  Also, I believe in general Canadians (at this juncture) will accept, adapt, evolve and move on.  I'm with Tony.  There won't be crowds of pesants with torches and pitchforks streaming towards Valcatraz or Kingston.



I agree with you; that there most likely will not be crowds of peasants with torches and pitchforks streaming towards Valcatraz, nor Kingston.  There may be one or two nut jobs, but not any large groups; and local Police agencies should be able to deal effectively with them.  Canadians, on a whole, are very naive when it comes to "Security".  I do not have faith that Canada has truly taken its' "Security" seriously; and I think the current Government has a much less concern about it than the previous.


----------



## jollyjacktar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I agree with you; that there most likely will not be crowds of peasants with torches and pitchforks streaming towards Valcatraz, nor Kingston.  There may be one or two nut jobs, but not any large groups; and local Police agencies should be able to deal effectively with them.  Canadians, on a whole, are very naive when it comes to "Security".  I do not have faith that Canada has truly taken its' "Security" seriously; and I think the current Government has a much less concern about it than the previous.



I agree, our present alien overlords are probably more Laissez-faire when it comes to security than the last bunch, gotta keep that "Sunny Ways" image going and I think they are willfully ignorant of reality.  I don't trust the Lieberals to not crap all over the bedclothes and make a pigs ear of things just because image is everything to them in 180 degree than it was for the former's self image interests.  Both are vain in that regard, just opposite sides of the coin, I fear.  Mind you as I told Pierre Poilievre when he came sniffing around for votes, your government is all talk and no action with taking care of the military's needs in equipment and personnel.  They all are, until they have no choice.  It hasn't changed in 100 years and I doubt it will over the next 100 either.


----------



## The Bread Guy

While I still trust Canadians as a whole ....





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> .... There may be one or two nut jobs, but not any large groups; and local Police agencies should be able to deal effectively with them ....


.... have to agree with you there - it only takes a few.


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I do not have faith that Canada has truly taken its' "Security" seriously; and I think the current Government has a much less concern about it than the previous.


Can't disagree here, either.


----------



## a_majoor

The idea of people torching Kingston or Valcartier was to illustrate what was happening for real in Europe (identified refugee reception centres being torched before the refugees could actually use them, IOT prevent the settlement of refugees in the locality) rather than a prediction of what would actually happen in Canada.

Mind you, people can flip the switch pretty quickly given the correct incentives/provocations, and as noted, the _heavily armed security patrols_ and _fierce guard dogs_ surrounding Canadian military bases might not be enough to stop a determined group from taking matters into their own hands... >


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I too trust our heavily armed security forces, high chain linked fences, closed circuit monitors, motion sensors and  aggressive guard dogs.



Sorry the dogs are being let go as part of the "leaner" military, there appears to be a bullet shortage for the armed guards, and we not completed First Nation consultation for the fence and there appears to be a SARA listed species at the east end, that will require a study done first.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The idea of people torching Kingston or Valcartier was to illustrate what was happening for real in Europe (identified refugee reception centres being torched before the refugees could actually use them, IOT prevent the settlement of refugees in the locality) *rather than a prediction of what would actually happen in Canada*.
> 
> Mind you, *people can flip the switch pretty quickly given the correct incentives/provocations, and as noted, the heavily armed security patrols and fierce guard dogs surrounding Canadian military bases might not be enough to stop a determined group from taking matters into their own hands*... >


I see what you did there  ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

Occam said:
			
		

> I have no tolerance for branding an entire religion *for the actions of a relative few. *



Sorry Occam i can't agree with you here.  There is a hell of a lot more than a _few_ cases of crazy Islam-following psychopaths and Islam inspired terrorist attacks.  Comparing the tons of terrorist attacks and shit against "Christian psychos" like the westbourough baptist church (like people are apt to do) is apples and oranges.


----------



## ArmyRick

jarnhamar, 

Curious, what is your military experience beside "ODST" (HALO video game)? Your profile says nothing about you...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> jarnhamar,
> 
> Curious, what is your military experience beside "ODST" (HALO video game)? Your profile says nothing about you...



I'll vouch for him.  You can PM him and I'm sure he'd be more than happy to tell you  :christmas happy:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> jarnhamar,
> 
> Curious, what is your military experience beside "ODST" (HALO video game)? Your profile says nothing about you...



I'll confirm his bonafides also.


----------



## Jarnhamar

(Thanks)

Armyrick, 

Respectfully I don't think someones military experience make a difference either way when pointing out the quantity of Islamic terrorist attacks going on in the world every day.   If I felt it was relevant to the topic at hand I'd be happy to PM you but I don't believe it is. 

The Halo world is probably an ironic thing to mention though. It's based around a convent of crazy religious aliens intent on wiping out humanity. Some of them even run towards you and blow themselves up    ;D


Here is a snapshot of Islamic-inspired terror attacks for December this month and a few from December last year I quickly pulled from Wikipedia because I;m half-assed.
One year ago around this time. 


> Pakistan December 16, 2014 – 2014 Peshawar school attack. Over 140 people dead, *including at least 132 children.*
> Yemen December 16, 2014 – 2014 Rada' bombings. Two suicide car bombers rammed their vehicles into a Shiite rebels' checkpoint killing 26, including 16 students.
> Nigeria December 18, 2014 – 2014 Gumsuri kidnappings. Boko Haram insurgents *killed 32 men and kidnapped at least 185 women and children.*
> Syria December 18, 2014 – *Mass grave of 230 Tribesmen killed by ISIL* found in Eastern Syria.


Notable attacks this month.


> United States December 2, 2015 – In the 2015 San Bernardino shooting, two people, one of whom posted on Facebook an "oath of allegiance" to the leader of ISIL, shot and killed 14 people and injured 21 others in a killing spree that the FBI was investigating as "act of terrorism".
> Chad December 5, 2015 – Four female suicide bombers from the militant Islamist group Boko Haram attacked the Chadian island of Koulfoua on Lake Chad, killing at least 15 people and injuring 130.
> Yemen December 6, 2015 – The governor of the southern port city of Aden in Yemen, Jaafar Mohammed Saad, was killed in a car bomb attack. The assassination was claimed by ISIS.
> Afghanistan December 8, 2015 – In the 2015 Kandahar Airport attacks several Taliban members attacked the Kandahar Airport and surrounding area. 50+ killed, 37 injured.
> Egypt December 8, 2015 – An explosive device by Islamists targeting a military convoy went off in Rafah. 4 dead 4 injured.
> Iraq December 9, 2015 – A suicide bomber detonated his explosives at in the doorway of a Shiite mosque. 11+ dead 20 injured.
> Afghanistan Spain December 11, 2015 – In the 2015 spain embassy attack in kabul Taliban millitants detonated a car bomb and stormed a guesthouse near the Spanish embassy. 6 dead, several injured.
> Syria December 11, 2015 – In the Tell Tamer bombings three truck bombs by ISIS killed up to 60 people and injured more than 80 in the town of Tell Tamer.



I'm not defending the actions or the comments by posters on that page. No doubt they'll get their peepee slapped pretty good.  What I'm arguing is that there isn't just a few bad apples in Islam, it's a serious world-wide problem.


----------



## Good2Golf

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> jarnhamar,
> 
> Curious, what is your military experience beside "ODST" (HALO video game)? Your profile says nothing about you...



 ???

Curious, ArmyRick, where this is coming all of a sudden?  Is this the first time you've read one of Jarnhammer's posts?  Not familiar with his posting history?

The fact that Mike Bobbitt has approved Jarnhammer as a mentor should at least give some indication of his credentials.  Yes, profile information can be reasonable information expectation, but of course, someone could also put anything in their profile.  As well, some folks known to many on the site may also thin down their profile for a number of reasons.  Just wondering why the sudden concern?

I'll give you, Jarnhammer's not quite as suave and good looking in real life as some may be led to believe here, but he's a real guy.  Then again, I have a relatively thin profile for a number of reasons, so maybe I'm not to be trusted by you either...

:2c:

Regards
G2G


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> (Thanks)
> 
> Armyrick,
> 
> Respectfully I don't think someones military experience make a difference either way when pointing out the quantity of Islamic terrorist attacks going on in the world every day.   If I felt it was relevant to the topic at hand I'd be happy to PM you but I don't believe it is.
> 
> The Halo world is probably an ironic thing to mention though. It's based around a convent of crazy religious aliens intent on wiping out humanity. Some of them even run towards you and blow themselves up    ;D
> 
> 
> Here is a snapshot of Islamic-inspired terror attacks for December this month and a few from December last year I quickly pulled from Wikipedia because I;m half-assed.
> One year ago around this time. Notable attacks this month.
> I'm not defending the actions or the comments by posters on that page. No doubt they'll get their peepee slapped pretty good.  What I'm arguing is that there isn't just a few bad apples in Islam, it's a serious world-wide problem.



I never even thought of this!  That's hilarious!


----------



## Altair

Funny how things you write are judged by what your profile says about you.


----------



## brihard

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> jarnhamar,
> 
> Curious, what is your military experience beside "ODST" (HALO video game)? Your profile says nothing about you...



I know him personally and worked with him on one of his several stints overseas. He has absolutely nothing to prove to anyone here. I vouch for him. His desire for some PERSEC is laudable, understandable, and in no way impacts positively or negatively on the merit of his opinions in their own right.


----------



## ArmyRick

My question is very straight forward. I do not know him. When I read jarnhamar experience on profile, I want to know if its a teenage recruit or a seasoned vet I am dealing with. 

Agreed on the Islamic extremist part but this whole thread is about some CF and others stepping outside their arcs on conduct. Seems we are deviating. Split?


----------



## The Bread Guy

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> ... Split?


Done & moved to a more generic thread.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## jollyjacktar

It appears that there has been another attack in France.  A teacher was stabbed in the throat by a balaclava'd man who was spouting Daeshbag garbage.  The attacker escaped and police are trying to find him, the teacher will survive.

Teacher Stabbed

Daily Mail are now reporting the teacher has been bullshitting about the attack.  Not cool, not cool.  Teacher now lying like a rug


----------



## larry Strong

Apparently made up by the victim. 





Cheers
Larry


----------



## The Bread Guy

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> An update on the ex-US Army National Guard member who tried to join ISIS:
> 
> Military.com
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago-Area Cousins Indicted in Alleged Terrorist Plot
> Associated Press | Apr 04, 2015
> 
> CHICAGO — Two suburban Chicago cousins have been indicted on charges of conspiring to help the Islamic State, with one allegedly planning to attack an Illinois military facility and the other allegedly planning to go overseas, federal prosecutors announced Friday.
> 
> Hasan Edmonds, a 22-year-old member of the Illinois Army National Guard, and his cousin, Jonas Edmonds, 29, were charged with conspiring to provide material support to the Islamic State of Iraq. The indictment was filed Thursday in U.S. District Court. Prosecutors say the two men will be arraigned April 8 ...
Click to expand...

Bumped with the latest on both dudes from the Associated Press:


> A former Illinois National Guard soldier pleaded guilty Monday to conspiring to provide material support to the Islamic State group.
> 
> Hasan Edmonds, 23, of Aurora, Illinois, pleaded guilty to one count of conspiring to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization and one count of attempting to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization.
> 
> The pleas in Chicago federal court came one week after his cousin, Jonas Edmonds, 30, of Aurora, pleaded guilty to similar charges.
> 
> "Hasan and Jonas Edmonds conspired to provide material support to ISIL," John P. Carlin, assistant attorney general for national security, said in a news release, using one of the alternative names for the Islamic State group. "They admitted planning to wage violence on behalf of ISIL in the Middle East and to conduct an attack on our soil."
> 
> Prosecutors say the cousins devised a plan for Hasan Edmonds to travel to the Middle East and join Islamic State fighters overseas. After dropping his cousin off at Midway International Airport last March, Jonas Edmonds went to Hasan Edmonds' home and collected several National Guard uniforms that he planned to wear as a disguise during a planned attack at the Joliet armory, the plea agreement said.
> 
> Agents with the Chicago FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force arrested Hasan Edmonds before he could board his flight and arrested Jonas Edmonds at his home a short time later ...


----------



## a_majoor

While ISIS and various other Islamic radical groups have the upper hand in social media and messaging, it is good to see that the West still has some people who are equally good at messaging. What is needed is to couple the messaging to actual sustained and effective actions on the ground (the one area we are weakest at):


----------



## a_majoor

Not sure if this is "heightened radio chatter" leading up to an attack, or throwing up a smokescreen to run the LE's ragged. It is nice to see more citizens now actively noticing what is going on and reporting, however:

https://pjmedia.com/trending/2015/12/23/counterterrorism-officials-looking-for-thieves-after-dozens-of-propane-tanks-stolen-in-philadelphia



> *Counterterrorism Officials Looking for Thieves after Dozens of Propane Tanks Stolen in Philadelphia*
> BY DEBRA HEINE DECEMBER 23, 2015 CHAT 5 COMMENTS
> 
> Police and counterterrorism officials are looking for a man who stole dozens of industrial propane tanks from two Philadelphia facilities last week, law enforcement sources told NBC10.
> 
> Security footage from the facilities show a man loading 43 tanks of various sizes into a dark-colored minivan, according to sources.
> 
> Twenty-four of the tanks are said to be the size and style used to fuel forklifts, sources said. Also taken were nine tanks that hold 100 pounds of fuel, four 50 pound tanks, four 33 pound tanks and two 2 pound tanks, according to sources.
> 
> Investigators sent out a bulletin to authorities across Northeast Philadelphia asking them to be on the lookout for the van and thief.
> 
> Dozens of propane tanks were also reported stolen from several locations in Independence and Lee's Summit, Missouri, earlier this month.
> 
> Around the same time, managers from five Missouri Walmarts alerted law enforcement about Middle Eastern men purchasing large numbers of untraceable disposable cellphones from their stores.  Several law enforcement agencies in Missouri have reportedly notified the FBI about the bulk purchases.
> 
> Also in Missouri, a group of Middle Eastern men aroused suspicion in the Ozarks a few weeks ago when they asked locals if they could rent a boat and tour the the area's hydroelectric facility.  Local law enforcement forwarded the security tip regarding Bagnell Dam to the FBI and a joint task force on terrorism.
> 
> In Goldsboro, North Carolina, police recently arrested four men from New York  "and charged them with felony larceny after an officer spotted them leaving a Lowe’s Home Improvement store with hundreds of plumbing supplies."
> 
> Also,  there have been reports of bulk purchases of Xbox 360 Kinect sensors in four states.
> The owner of a game store in Arkansas told All News Pipeline that "two middle eastern men went through Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma recently and purchased over $40,000 worth of these xbox accessories from video game stores."
> 
> In New York City, the police are reportedly on high alert ahead of the holidays.
> 
> Although NYPD officials say there is no specific "credible threat" against the city, "top NYPD brass including Commissioner William Bratton met with counterterrorism officials to discuss the need for increased vigilance," according to sources.


----------



## McG

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is "heightened radio chatter" leading up to an attack, or throwing up a smokescreen to run the LE's ragged. It is nice to see more citizens now actively noticing what is going on and reporting, however:
> 
> https://pjmedia.com/trending/2015/12/23/counterterrorism-officials-looking-for-thieves-after-dozens-of-propane-tanks-stolen-in-philadelphia


And if these really are signs of something in the works, it was great of the press to have made all this intelligence public.
 :


----------



## a_majoor

Competing narratives. Looks like the "Progressive" narrative lost:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/25/us-man-tries-to-join-al-qaeda-in-protest-at-his-countrys-gay-marriage-laws-5584733/?utm_content=buffer9d917&utm_medium=Social+-+Twitter&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=Twitter



> *US man ‘tries to join Al Qaeda in protest at his country’s gay marriage laws’*
> Jen Mills for Metro.co.ukFriday 25 Dec 2015 10:12 am
> 
> US man 'says gay marriage drove him to try and join Al Qaeda'
> Adam Shafi
> 
> A US man allegedly tried to join Al Qaeda in Syria because he was unhappy at the legalisation of same sex marriage.
> 
> Adam Shafi, 22, said the country was ‘heading in the wrong direction’ after the Supreme Court ruled to allow equal marriage in all 51 states.
> 
> Authorities claim the Californian tried to board a flight to Turkey to join the terrorist group’s Syrian branch, al Nusra, after backing out of joining Daesh (Islamic State) last year, the Daily Beast reports.
> 
> His alleged rationale for this was that Daesh was too brutal and killed too many fellow Muslims, but Al Qaeda were more moderate.
> 
> Members of al Qaeda's Nusra Front ride on a pick-up truck mounted with an anti-aircraft weapon in the town of the northwestern city of Ariha, after a coalition of insurgent groups seized the area in Idlib province, May 29, 2015. The Syrian army has pulled back from the northwestern city of Ariha after a coalition of insurgent groups seized the last city in Idlib province in northwestern Syria near the Turkish border that was still held by the government. A coalition of rebel groups called Jaish al Fateh, or Conquest Army, said it had taken over the city. Syria's al Qaeda offshoot Nusra Front is a major part of the coalition. REUTERS/Ammar Abdullah - RTR4XYLJ
> Members of al Qaeda’s Nusra Front (Picture: Reuters)
> 
> ‘Adam was discouraged with the politics and direction of the United States – citing the recent Supreme Court decision allowing gay marriage,’ a criminal complaint released by the FBI claims.
> 
> ‘He wanted to be in a country of people of similar mindset and religion as himself.’
> 
> In a recording seized by police, Shafi said that if Daesh fighters attacked Al Nusra he would be ‘completely fine dying with these guys’.
> 
> Daesh propaganda includes videos of their members executing rivals, including fighters from Al Nusra.
> 
> But he never actually joined a terrorist group, so now his legal team say he is being punished for a crime he didn’t commit.
> 
> Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2015/12/25/us-man-tries-to-join-al-qaeda-in-protest-at-his-countrys-gay-marriage-laws-5584733/#ixzz3vRUI5Fzr


----------



## Old Sweat

Adam Shafi, 22, said the country was ‘heading in the wrong direction’ after the Supreme Court ruled to allow equal marriage in *all 51 states.*

What is the name of the 51st state?


----------



## Journeyman

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> What is the name of the 51st state?


Confusion.


----------



## Good2Golf

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Confusion.



I was going to for for 'Ignorance', but Journeyman may be closer to the truth on this one.

Of course, the 'also ran' answer would be 'Canada'...

Regards
G2G


----------



## The Bread Guy

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> More about terrorist recruits who passed through the cracks before:
> 
> 
> 
> US citizen brought from Pakistan to NYC to face charges he supported terror in martyrdom quest
> 
> NEW YORK, N.Y. - A U.S. citizen who authorities say travelled from Canada to Pakistan to train with al-Qaida in order to carry out jihad has been arrested and charged with conspiring to kill American soldiers, according to court papers unsealed Thursday.
> 
> A bearded *Muhanad Mahmoud Al Farekh*, wearing light blue prison attire, said nothing and entered no plea during a brief court appearance Thursday afternoon before a federal judge in Brooklyn. He was ordered held without bail
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> 
> 
> Canadian Pres ...
Click to expand...

The latest on the guy in yellow ...


> A former University of Manitoba student awaiting trial on terror-related charges is now facing additional charges for his alleged involvement in an attack on a U.S. military base in Afghanistan.
> 
> Muhanad Mahmoud Al Farekh has been charged with additional counts of conspiring to murder U.S. nationals, use of explosives, conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction and conspiracy to bomb a government facility.
> 
> The charges stem from his alleged involvement in a January 19, 2009 attack on a U.S. military base.  According to the U.S. Department of Justice, Al Farekh assisted in preparation of vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices (VBIED). One co-conspirator allegedly detonated one of the car bombs during the attack on the base.  The second vehicle's explosive wasn't activated and Al Farekh's fingerprints were recovered from the packing tape on the devices, justice officials said.
> 
> The indictment also alleges that Al Farekh provided material support to al-Qaeda between December 2006 and September 2009 ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

As he is an American citizen, he should be charged with treason as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## ModlrMike

Surprise, surprise... no commenting allowed on the article.  :


----------



## Kirkhill

This article from Foreign Policy - quoted in its entirety.  

The basic premise is that the issue in France is one of youth looking for a justification to act radically - and Salafi Islam allows them to plead their conscience as justification for any and all anti-social acts.

Radical youth is not a new phenomenon in France (and some of the youth become radical old men and women).  In fact the whole of modern French society is based on a celebration of radicalism and revolution and insurgency.  Much like the US in fact.

Britain has seen its share of insurgencies (including my own family's Covenanting heritage as well as the Stewart insurgencies and the Parliamentarian insurgencies).  However different lessons were drawn in Britain and elsewhere.

Britain and the Northern Europeans generally reject insurrection and radicalism.  The southerners, having embraced it historically, are forced to legitimate it to justify their modern societies.

The Brits were raised to shudder at the thought of beheading the king.  The French and the Yanks (and the Russians) cheer. 




> ARGUMENT
> 
> *France’s Oedipal Islamist Complex*
> The country's jihadi problem isn't about religion or politics. It's about generational revolt.
> 
> BY OLIVIER ROYJANUARY 7, 2016
> 
> France is at war! Perhaps. But against whom or what?
> 
> Last November, when the Islamic State staged the shootings that killed 130 in Paris, it did not send Syrians. A year ago, when al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula purportedly ordered the deadly attack on the office of Charlie Hebdo, it did not send gunmen from Yemen. Rather, both groups drew from a reservoir of radicalized French youth who, no matter what happens in the Middle East, are already disaffected and are seeking a cause, a label, a grand narrative to which they can add the bloody signature of their personal revolt.
> 
> The rallying cry of these youth is opportunistic: Today it is the Islamic State; yesterday, they were with al Qaeda; before that, in 1995, they were subcontractors for the Algerian Armed Islamic Group, or they practiced the nomadism of personal jihad, from Bosnia to Afghanistan, by way of Chechnya. Tomorrow they will fight under another banner, so long as combat death, age, or disillusion do not empty their ranks.
> 
> There is no third, fourth, or nth generation of jihadis. Since 1996, we have been confronted with a very stable phenomenon: the radicalization of two categories of French youth — second-generation Muslims and native converts. The essential problem for France, therefore, is not the caliphate in the Syrian desert, which will disappear sooner or later, like an old mirage that has become a nightmare. The problem is the revolt of these youth. And the real challenge is to understand what these youth represent: whether they are the vanguard of an approaching war or, on the contrary, are just a rumbling of history.
> 
> Two readings of the situation dominate at the moment and are shaping the debates on television and in the opinion pages of newspapers: These are, basically, the cultural explanation and the Third World explanation.
> 
> The first puts forth that recurring and nagging “war of civilizations” theory: The revolt of young Muslims demonstrates the extent to which Islam cannot be integrated into the West, at least not so long as theological reform has not struck the call of jihad from the Quran. The second interpretation evokes post-colonial suffering, the identification of these youth with the Palestinian cause, their rejection of Western intervention in the Middle East, and their exclusion from a French society that is racist and Islamophobic. In short, the old song: So long as we haven’t resolved the Israel-Palestine conflict, there will be a revolt.
> 
> But the two explanations run up against the same problem: If the causes of radicalization are structural, then why do they affect only a tiny fraction of those in France who call themselves Muslims? Only a few thousand, among several million.
> 
> But these young radicals have been identified! All the terrorists who have actually taken action were, notoriously, in the “S File” — that is, on the government’s watch list. I don’t wish to get into a discussion here of prevention — I simply note that the information about them is there, and it is accessible. So let us look at who they are and try to draw some conclusions.
> 
> Nearly all the French jihadis belong to two very precise categories: They are either “second-generation” French — that is, born or raised from a very young age in France — or they are “native” French converts (whose numbers have increased with time, but who already constituted 25 percent of radicals at the end of the 1990s). This means that, among the radicals, there are practically no “first-generation” jihadis (including recent arrivals), but especially no “third-generation” jihadis.
> 
> The third-generation category in France is growing: The Moroccan immigrants of the 1970s are now grandparents. But one does not find their grandchildren among the terrorists. And why do converts, who never suffered from racism, wish to brutally avenge the humiliation experienced by Muslims? Especially since many of these converts — like Maxime Hauchard, the Normandy-born man who appeared in the Islamic State’s beheading videos — come from rural France and have little reason to identify with a Muslim community that for them exists only in theory. In short, this is not a “revolt of Islam” or one of Muslims, but a specific problem concerning two categories of youth, the majority of whom are of immigrant origin. This is not, then, the radicalization of Islam, but the Islamization of radicalism.This is not, then, the radicalization of Islam, but the Islamization of radicalism.
> 
> What is the common ground between the second generation and the converts? It is, first of all, a question of a generational revolt: Both have ruptured with their parents or, more precisely, with what their parents represent in terms of culture and religion.
> 
> Members of the second generation do not adhere to the Islam of their parents, nor do they represent a tradition that is rebelling against Westernization. They are Westernized. They speak better French than their parents. They have all shared in the youth culture of their generation — they’ve drunk alcohol, smoked weed, flirted with girls in nightclubs. A large number of them have spent time in prison. And then one morning, they (re)converted, choosing Salafi Islam, which is to say, an Islam that rejects the concept of culture, an Islam possessing of norms that allow them to reconstruct the self all by themselves. Because they want nothing of the culture of their parents or of the Western culture that has become a symbol of their self-hatred.
> 
> The key in this revolt is the absence of the transmission of a religion that is culturally integrated. It’s a problem that concerns neither the first generation, whose members bring cultural Islam from their country of origin but who haven’t been able to pass it down, nor the third generation, who speak French with their parents and who have, thanks to them, a familiarity with how Islam can be expressed in French society. If it is true that there are fewer Turks than North Africans within the radical movements, it is undoubtedly because the transition has been smoother for the Turks, since the Turkish state took it upon itself to send teachers and imams to its overseas communities (which poses other problems, but allows the Turks to avoid the adherence to Salafism and violence).
> 
> Young converts, similarly, adhere to a “pure” form of religion; cultural compromise is of no interest to them (which is completely different from previous generations who converted to Sufism). In this they join the second generation in their allegiance to an “Islam of rupture” — generational rupture, cultural rupture, and, finally, political rupture. It serves no purpose to offer them a “moderate Islam”; it is the radicalism that attracts them in the first place. Salafism is not only a matter of sermonizing financed by Saudi Arabia — it’s also the product that suits these youth, who are at odds with society.
> 
> What’s more — and this is the greatest difference from the circumstances of young Palestinians who take up diverse forms of intifada — the Muslim parents of radicalized second-generation youth do not understand the revolt of their progeny. More and more, as with the parents of converts, they try to prevent the radicalization of their children: They call the police; if the children have left the country, they follow to try to bring them back; they fear, with good reason, that the older children will draw in their younger siblings. Far from being the symbol of the radicalization of Muslim populations as a whole, the jihadis explode the generational gap, which is to say, quite simply, the family.
> 
> The jihadis are on the margins of Muslim communities: They almost never have a history of devotion and religious practice. Quite the opposite. Journalists’ articles all resemble each other in their astonishment. After each attack, they question the inner circle of the murderer, and there is always the same sense of surprise. “We don’t understand; he was a nice boy (or a variation: “just a harmless juvenile delinquent”). He wasn’t observant: He drank, he smoked joints, he went out with girls.… Ah, yes, it’s true, in the last few months he changed — he let his beard grow and began to inundate us with religion.” For the feminine version, see the plethora of articles about Hasna Aït Boulahcen, “Miss Frivolous Jihad.”
> 
> This cannot be explained by the idea of taqiyya, or concealment of one’s faith, because once they are “born again,” these youth do not hide anything, but rather display their new conviction on Facebook. They exhibit their new almighty selves, their desire for revenge for their suppressed frustrations, the pleasure they derive from the new power lent them by their willingness to kill, and their fascination with their own death. The violence that they subscribe to is a modern violence; they kill in the manner of mass shooters in America or Anders Breivik in Norway — coldly and calmly. Nihilism and pride are profoundly tied to each other.
> 
> The fanatical individualism of these youth goes back to their isolation from Muslim communities. Few among them regularly attend a mosque. The religious leaders they eventually choose to follow are often self-proclaimed imams. Their radicalization arises around the fantasy of heroism, violence, and death, not of sharia or utopia. In Syria, they only fight war; none integrate or interest themselves in civil society. And if they take sexual slaves or recruit young women on the Internet to become the wives of future martyrs, it’s because they are in no way socially integrated in the Muslim societies that they claim to defend. They are more nihilist than utopist. Even if some of them have spent time with Tablighi Jamaat (a movement that preaches fundamentalist Islam), none of them have joined the Union of Islamic Organizations in France, and none have participated in a political movement or undertaken efforts to support Palestine. None took up community service: delivering meals for the end of Ramadan, preaching in mosques, or going door to door. None have undertaken serious religious study. And none have taken an interest in theology, not even in the nature of jihad or of the Islamic State.
> 
> They were radicalized within a small group of “buddies” who met in a particular place (neighborhood, prison, sport club); they recreate a “family,” a brotherhood. There is an important pattern that no one has studied: The brotherhood is often biological. There is very often a pair of “bros” who take action together (the Kouachi and Abdeslam brothers; Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who “kidnapped” his little brother; the Clain brothers, who converted together; not to mention the Tsarnaev brothers, the authors of the Boston Marathon bombing in April 2013). It is as though radicalizing a sibling (sisters included) is a way to underscore the generational dimension and the rupture with the parents. The cell members make an effort to create emotional ties among themselves: A member will often marry the sister of a brother in arms. The jihadi cells do not resemble those of radical movements inspired by Marxism or nationalism, such as the Algerian FLN, the IRA, or the ETA. Founded on personal relationships, they are more difficult to infiltrate.
> 
> The terrorists therefore are not the expression of a radicalization of the Muslim population, but rather reflect a generational revolt that affects a very precise category of youth.
> 
> * * *
> 
> Why Islam? For members of the second generation, it’s obvious: They are reclaiming, on their own terms, an identity that, in their eyes, their parents have debased. They are “more Muslim than the Muslims” and, in particular, than their parents. The energy that they put into reconverting their parents (in vain) is significant, but it shows to what extent they are on another planet (all the parents have a story to tell about these exchanges). As for the converts, they choose Islam because it’s the only thing on the market of radical rebellion. Joining the Islamic State offers the certainty of terrorizing.


----------



## George Wallace

From the Globe and Mail: SIX CANADIANS KILLED 

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Six Canadians from Quebec killed in terrorist attack on Burkina Faso hotel
> OTTAWA — The Canadian Press
> Published Saturday, Jan. 16, 2016 4:47PM EST
> Last updated Saturday, Jan. 16, 2016 6:56PM EST
> 
> Six Canadians died in an attack on a luxury hotel in Burkina Faso, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Saturday as the Quebec government confirmed all six were from the province.
> 
> Four jihadist attackers linked to al-Qaeda were killed by Burkina Faso and French security forces hours after they stormed the Splendid Hotel and nearby Cappuccino Cafe, establishments popular with westerners in the West African country’s capital of Ouagadougou.
> 
> At least 28 died in the attacks, from 18 different countries, in the attack on the Splendid Hotel and nearby Cappuccino Cafe, establishments popular with westerners in Ouagadougou.
> 
> Trudeau issued a statement strongly condemning the attack that began late Friday and ended Saturday.
> 
> “On behalf of all Canadians, we offer our deepest condolences to the families, friends and colleagues of all those killed and a speedy recovery to all those injured. We are deeply saddened by these senseless acts of violence on innocent civilians,” he said.
> 
> The statement did not give any information on the identities of the Canadians. The federal government is normally prohibited from providing such information due to privacy laws. But a representative from the Department of Global Affairs was able to confirm that no employees of the Canadian government were killed.
> 
> A spokesperson for Quebec’s International Relations Minister Christine St-Pierre has confirmed the six were all from Quebec.
> 
> Three attackers were killed at the hotel and a fourth was killed when security forces cleared out a second hotel nearby. Two of the three attackers at the Splendid Hotel were identified as female, President Roch Marc Christian Kabore said on national radio.
> 
> He said at least 126 hostages were freed, in part by French forces, who arrived overnight from neighbouring Mali to aid in the rescue.
> 
> The attack was launched by the same extremists behind a similar siege at an upscale hotel in Bamako, Mali in November that left 20 dead.
> 
> An al-Qaeda affiliate known as al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb claimed responsibility online as the attack was ongoing in downtown Ouagadougou at the 147-room hotel, according to the SITE Intelligence Group.
> 
> Burkina Faso, a largely Muslim country, had for years been largely spared from the violence carried out by Islamic extremist groups who were abducting foreigners for ransom in neighbouring Mali and Niger. Then last April, a Romanian national was kidnapped in an attack that was the first of its kind in the country.
> 
> Canada and Burkina Faso have had a diplomatic relationship since 1962, according to the Department of Global Affairs, adding that Canada is the country’s largest foreign investor.
> 
> In addition to trading about $75 million in goods and importing another $48.5 million in the fiscal year 2013-2014, Canada provided $33 million for development assistance in Burkina Faso that same year.
> 
> Ogho Ikhalo of Plan Canada, an international development organization that has been working for decades with children in Burkina Faso, said all staff in the country were safe.
> 
> “We are saddened by the loss of lives, specifically Canadians, and also all the lives that were impacted by the situation,” she said. “From our organization’s standpoint, we want all parties in the dispute to end the conflict and to ensure that all children are safe.”
> 
> — With files from The Associated Press



More on LINK.


----------



## George Wallace

George Wallace said:
			
		

> From the Globe and Mail: SIX CANADIANS KILLED
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> More on LINK.



PM's Statement:  http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/01/16/prime-minister-condemns-terrorist-attacks-burkina-faso


----------



## George Wallace

An interesting twist:  Saudi Writer asks how Muslims would act if Christian terrorists blew themselves up in their midst.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Saudi Writer Asks How Muslims Would Act If Christian Terrorists Blew Themselves Up In Their Midst
> MEMRI
> The Middle East Media Reseravh Instititute
> February 25, 2016
> 
> _Liberal Saudi journalist Nadine Al-Budair, who lives in Qatar, penned an article in the Kuwaiti daily Al-Rai in which she wondered how Muslims would have acted if Christians had blown themselves up in their midst or tried to force their faith on them. She called on the Muslim world to be introspective and enact reforms, instead of condemning Western attitudes towards it.
> The following are excerpts from the article:_[1]
> 
> "Imagine a Western youth coming here and carrying out a suicide mission in one of our public squares in the name of the Cross. Imagine that two skyscrapers had collapsed in some Arab capital, and that an extremist Christian group, donning millennium-old garb, had emerged to take responsibility for the event, while stressing its determination to revive Christian teachings or some Christian rulings, according to its understanding, to live like in the time [of Jesus] and his disciples, and to implement certain edicts of Christian scholars…
> 
> "Imagine hearing the voices of monks and priests from churches and prayer houses in and out of the Arab world, screaming on loudspeakers and levelling accusations against Muslims, calling them infidels, and chanting: 'God, eliminate the Muslims and defeat them all.'
> 
> "Imagine that we had provided an endless number of foreign groups with visas, ID cards, citizenships, proper jobs, free education, free modern healthcare, social security, and so on, and later a member of one of these groups came out, consumed by hatred and bloodlust, and killed our sons on our streets, in our buildings, in our newspaper [offices], in our mosques and in our schools.
> 
> "Imagine a Frenchmen or a German in Paris or Berlin leading his Muslim neighbor [somewhere] in order to slaughter him and then freeze his head in an ice box, in a cold and calculating manner... as one terrorist did with the head of an American in Riyadh years ago.[2]
> 
> "Imagine that we visited their country as tourists and they shot at us, blew up car bombs near us, and announced their opposition to our presence [there] by chanting: 'Remove the Muslims from the land of culture.'
> 
> "These images are far from the mind of the Arab or Muslim terrorist because he is certain, or used to be certain, that the West is humanitarian and that the Western citizen would refuse to respond [in this manner] to the barbaric crimes [of the Muslim terrorists]. Despite the terrorist acts of Al-Qaeda and ISIS, we [Muslims] have been on [Western] soil for years without any fear or worry. Millions of Muslim tourists, immigrants, students, and job seekers [travel to the West] with the doors open [to them], and the streets safe [for them].
> 
> "However, how much longer [will this last]? Today things are different. [Western] anger [at Muslims] is apparent, and they make scary declarations. One who recently championed [these views] is Donald Trump, who demanded to bar Muslims from entering the U.S.
> 
> "It is strange that we [Muslims] believe we have the right to condemn such statements rather than address the implications of some of our extremist curricula, our education, and our regimes, and be ashamed [of them]... It is strange that we condemn [the West] instead of addressing what is happening in our midst - the extremist ways in which we interpret the shari'a and our reactionary attitudes towards each other and the world. It is strange that we condemn instead of apologizing to the world.
> 
> "How would you react if a European blew up a theater in your city or a café that your son frequents? What would you do if you heard curses against your religion and faith every Sunday, as they hear [against theirs] from some of our imams on Fridays and other days?
> 
> "Imagine being in Amsterdam, London, or New York and knowing that students [there] learn as part of their curricula that you are an infidel, and that killing you is jihad that leads to the virgins of paradise. Would you extend your stay there to the end of the summer, or stay away? [Would you] blow yourself up [as the Muslim terrorists do], or would you do less than that: [Merely] conquer your rage and demand to ban Christians from entering Arab countries. What would you do?
> 
> "[Imagine] the war that would break out had Westerners shed their values in the face of the bloody crimes committed by foreigners, and if Western or Christian counter-radicalism had emerged in our Arab cities?
> 
> "After all these farces, some Arab analyst comes out touting a pathetic message, and reciting the same words in his friend's ear that he has repeated millions of times: 'Those [Muslims who commit terrorism] do not represent Islam, but only themselves.'
> 
> "This is all we [know how to do] – absolve [ourselves] of guilt.
> 
> Endnotes:
> 
> [1] Al-Rai (Kuwait), December 15, 2015.
> 
> [2] A reference to American engineer Paul Marshall Johnson, who was abducted and beheaded by Al-Qaeda operatives in Saudi Arabia in 2004. His severed head was found in an ice box in a Riyadh apartment approximately one month later.



More on LINK.


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> An interesting twist:  Saudi Writer asks how Muslims would act if Christian terrorists blew themselves up in their midst.
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> More on LINK.


Great catch - here's the original in Arabic for anyone whose Arabic is decent.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I really would like to see the honest reaction to this.  I bet this will be making some heads explode here and there.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Good article.  Unfortunately we'll probably be reading an article about finding the writers head in an icebox in the future.  I wonder what the comment section would read like.


----------



## jollyjacktar

This woman should have been put down like the mad dog she is.  Photos at story link below.



> Horror in Moscow as burka-clad babysitter 'decapitates four-year-old girl in her care' - then walks through streets carrying her severed head and shouting 'Allahu Akbar'
> Eyewitnesses say they saw the woman holding the severed head of a child
> She is said to have shouted 'Allahu Akbar' as she appeared close to station
> Body of child aged four was found at a burnt-out block of flats earlier today
> Child's nanny Gyulchehra Bobokulova, from Uzbekistan, has been arrested
> 
> ByJulian Robinsonand Will Stewart In Moscow for MailOnline
> 
> Published: 09:54 GMT, 29 February 2016 | Updated: 15:02 GMT, 29 February 2016
> 
> A burka-clad babysitter decapitated the little girl in her care before walking through Moscow carrying the child's severed head, police say.
> 
> The woman shouted 'Allahu Akbar' as she appeared near Oktyabrskoye Pole metro station in the northwest of the Russian capital and threatened to blow herself up.
> 
> It came hours after officers found the headless body of a four-year-old child when they were called to a fire at a block of flats in the city.
> 
> The victim was a girl identified as Nastya M - and the child's 38-year-old nanny Gyulchehra Bobokulova, from Uzbekistan, has been arrested.
> 
> The woman was seen pulling the severed head out of a bag and walking around near the entrance to the metro station as police moved in.
> 
> She is then said to have shouted that she had killed the child and was seen praying shortly before officers swooped.
> 
> According to local reports, she later told police she killed the girl because of her own husband's infidelity. Investigators immediately ordered a psychiatric test of the woman in a bid to understand her motives.
> 
> One eyewitness at the underground station told MK how the woman screamed: 'My child was killed…I will blow up everyone.' She also shouted: 'I hate democracy'.
> 
> A journalist working for RBC daily, said she had heard the woman screaming 'Allahu Akbar' (God is Great).
> 
> 'I was on my way to the metro station from home,' Polina Nikolskaya said.
> 
> 'She was standing near the metro entrance and caught my attention because she was screaming Allahu Akbar.
> 
> 'I saw that she had a bloodied head in her arms, but I thought it was not real. People in the crowd said it was real.'
> 
> In further footage from the scene, the woman can be heard shouting about the end of the world while proclaiming herself a terrorist.
> 
> The station was closed to passengers for some time, but no explosives were found on her.
> 
> Dramatic footage shows the moment police sprinted in towards the woman and tackled her to the ground.
> 
> Emergency services had earlier been called to an apartment nearby amid reports of black smoke billowing out of windows.
> 
> Firefighters rescued four people and put out the blaze - but then found the child's beheaded body.
> 
> Investigators claim that the babysitter waited until she was along with the child in the apartment before carrying out the murder and starting a fire.
> 
> The source in the Investigative committee told TASS: 'She waited until the parents with the elder child left the flat, then for unknown reason she killed the child, set fire to the apartment and left the scene.
> 
> 'She was detained at the metro station Oktyabrskoe Pole.'
> 
> The dead girl, who is said to have had learning difficulties and could not walk, had a 15-year-old brother. Her family, from the Oryol region, was renting the apartment.
> 
> She suffered damage because of birth problems in August 2011.
> 
> The family took her for treatment to China - and were saving money to travel for subsequent care in Germany.
> 
> The girl's mother, who works in a wedding shop, was rushed to hospital in an unconscious condition after learning of her daughter's death. The child's father is a technician at a mobile phone company.
> 
> The parents told police the nanny had been working for them for 18 month.
> 
> Sources say the babysitter told interrogators she did not want to hide from police, and aimed to draw maximum attention to what she has done.
> 
> She had not intended to ignite the flat deliberately and destroy evidence, she said, according to the source, and wanted the parents to know who had killed their daughter.
> 
> The woman had a valid residency permit for Russia but was working illegally. She had no work permit, said officials.
> 
> The nanny faces up to 20 years in jail if she is deemed psychologically fit to stand trial.
> 
> This afternoon, the investigation was taken over by the FSB, Russia's powerful domestic secret service, once headed by Vladimir Putin. Police are not currently treating the incident as terrorism.
> 
> LifeNews claimed: 'Investigators suspect that Gulchekhra had manic psychosis developing for a period of time.'
> 
> A law enforcement source said the woman was suspected of handling 'explosive elements' at the flat which was engulfed in flames.
> 
> But 'it might be an inflammable liquid that she used to set the apartment on fire where she killed four-year-old Nastya M.'
> 
> The security services are hunting for the woman's husband. A source said she may have been on 'light drugs'.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3469100/Woman-black-burka-holding-child-s-severed-HEAD-shouting-Allahu-Akbar-shuts-metro-station-Moscow.html#ixzz41ZP0Pw2r
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## ArmyRick

Disgusting actions


----------



## AbdullahD

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> This article from Foreign Policy - quoted in its entirety.
> 
> The basic premise is that the issue in France is one of youth looking for a justification to act radically - and Salafi Islam allows them to plead their conscience as justification for any and all anti-social acts.
> 
> Radical youth is not a new phenomenon in France (and some of the youth become radical old men and women).  In fact the whole of modern French society is based on a celebration of radicalism and revolution and insurgency.  Much like the US in fact.
> 
> Britain has seen its share of insurgencies (including my own family's Covenanting heritage as well as the Stewart insurgencies and the Parliamentarian insurgencies).  However different lessons were drawn in Britain and elsewhere.
> 
> Britain and the Northern Europeans generally reject insurrection and radicalism.  The southerners, having embraced it historically, are forced to legitimate it to justify their modern societies.
> 
> The Brits were raised to shudder at the thought of beheading the king.  The French and the Yanks (and the Russians) cheer.



That was an amazingly good read and analysis. In our community we have a saying, that I have heard.... so take with salt please... but... "Not all Salafi's are terrorists, but all terrorists are salafi's".

I will share this with some friends, if you dont mind. I enjoyed the read.

Abdullah


----------



## Loachman

The Western version is "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims".

Obviously, that is a generalization, and one that is unfair to a lot of Muslims - just as, quite likely I'm sure, the version that you quoted is unfair to a lot of Salafists.

I look at culture as well as religion - both are intertwined. I have a positive view of Afghans, for example, based upon my experience with them. I also recognize that other CF people have had less pleasant/positive experience with Afghans for various reasons.

I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt regardless of their country of origin or religion, but I've also spent a lifetime considering or dealing with threats. I recognize that, and attempt to maintain balance. I believe that all human lives are of equal value, until somebody clearly demonstrates through their actions that theirs is not.

I do not really care what a person's faith is (beyond generation of interesting and enlightening discussion, such as you have brought to this Site). I only care that it brings its holder comfort and joy, and that he or she can practise it as they see fit without interference and without interfering in others' practice of their faiths in return.


----------



## AbdullahD

Loachman said:
			
		

> The Western version is "Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims".
> 
> Obviously, that is a generalization, and one that is unfair to a lot of Muslims - just as, quite likely I'm sure, the version that you quoted is unfair to a lot of Salafists.
> 
> I look at culture as well as religion - both are intertwined. I have a positive view of Afghans, for example, based upon my experience with them. I also recognize that other CF people have had less pleasant/positive experience with Afghans for various reasons.
> 
> I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt regardless of their country of origin or religion, but I've also spent a lifetime considering or dealing with threats. I recognize that, and attempt to maintain balance. I believe that all human lives are of equal value, until somebody clearly demonstrates through their actions that theirs is not.
> 
> I do not really care what a person's faith is (beyond generation of interesting and enlightening discussion, such as you have brought to this Site). I only care that it brings its holder comfort and joy, and that he or she can practise it as they see fit without interference and without interfering in others' practice of their faiths in return.



The Version I quoted is unfair and wrong headed. I need to stop being a hypocrite. 

I've had many run in with those who follow the Salafi madhab that have done more to combat extremism, then I have and yet I still propagate the idiocy I wish to combat.

Mayhap i need to reform myself

Abdullah


----------



## Journeyman

Loachman said:
			
		

> Obviously, that is a generalization, and one that is unfair to a lot of the *overwhelming* number of Muslims -


----------



## ArmyRick

AbdullahD and others with strong understanding in history, 

whats your take on this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y


----------



## Edward Campbell

Look here ... the real problem, according to MacLean's magazine is ...
.
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.
.
.
.
 [lol:  :rofl: engineers!!!  :cheers:  :blotto:  :nod:


----------



## jollyjacktar

And now the Liberals want to give Canadian citizenship back to the convicted terrorist leader of the Toronto 18, Zakaria Amara, who is a Jordanian by whatever rock he crawled out from under.  Way to go, lefties.                 

Cue their Sycophant drum beaters to wave the Kumbaya flag of Universal One-ness... along with their usual appeaser dance of victory over the hated Cons.


Citizen Terrorist


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Look here ... the real problem, according to MacLean's magazine is ...
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [lol:  :rofl: engineers!!!  :cheers:  :blotto:  :nod:




To be fair to most Engineers, were they "real" Engineers or just the sandbox equilivant of Devry graduates.


----------



## AbdullahD

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> AbdullahD and others with strong understanding in history,
> 
> whats your take on this video?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y



Sorry I am not huge into history, I just know a few things to debunk common misconceptions. I am currently unable to watch the link, but if you can provide a summary of his arguememt I will give any opinions I have.

But again, Im not a historian by any yardstick. (full disclaimer I did study canadian history for a year in university)

Abdullah


----------



## ArmyRick

I will try to give you a breakdown of what is said but I will need a pen and paper because its very in depth.


----------



## Loachman

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> To be fair to most Engineers, were they "real" Engineers or just the sandbox equilivant of Devry graduates.



The (so-far only) comment following that article makes a lot of sense:

"A lot of non-engineering types seem to think that engineers are regular people that went to a weird school and learned stuff. This article alludes to that… does being an engineer make people predisposed to terrorism, or do people predisposed to terrorism gravitate to engineering? The answer is neither. People are born engineers. There is, in fact, a strong correlation between being a successful engineer and being on the Autism spectrum. It’s genetic. Yes, we tend to be a strange lot, we don’t think like “regular” people, and that way of thinking happens to make us good engineers. It does not make us terrorists. There is, however, another possibility.

"While I’m not particularly interested in doing the math, there is one element not considered in this article: failure. Engineering is not particularly welcoming of failures, even those failures that manage to muddle through the schooling. It’s pretty easy to tell a good engineer from a pretender, and the good ones, more often than not, don’t have the social skills to comfort the pretenders.

"A great many people muddle through life with a sub-optimal career choice, ending up in jobs that they aren’t particularly good at and don’t particularly like. Engineering types that wind up in care-giver careers may be lousy at it, but at least they’re surrounded by people with empathy. The care-givers that end up in engineering… not so lucky. Further, true engineers, faced with the reality that they did make a lousy career choice, are more likely the type that will, well, re-engineer things and start over. The pretend engineers are more often the type that will blame others for their misery and then go off to change the world instead of themselves.

"When I look at what terrorists do… I think those people are failures, first in engineering but also in life. I mean, they’re idiots. If real engineers got into terrorism there would be a lot more dead people. Or, looking at it another way, the REAL terrorists are the engineers working for the military industrial complex. They’re the ones that make stuff that actually works. They make the stuff that actually kills a lot of people, that actually does overthrow governments and change the world. The pretenders are trying to sew bombs into their underwear, and even failing at that. 

"Yes, many of those idiot terrorists had engineering degrees, but I suspect few of them could have held their own working with real engineers. Further, I suspect that if they had tried, they would have blamed the engineers for making them look bad, their schools for not preparing them properly, and everyone else for not being sympathetic to their situation. The correlation is that terrorists are losers, and it’s easier to lose when you try to play engineer. Real engineers take the blame when things they do go wrong; real losers blame other people for their failings. 

"Bringing this home, the École Polytechnique Massacre is a perfect example. Marc Lépine may have been in engineering school, but he was no engineer. For this study, he probably wasn’t classified as a terrorists but only because he was too stupid to wrap himself in some kind of ideological flag. He just blamed women for making him look bad. If he had gone to acting school instead, or maybe studied political science, he might have had a reasonable life, probably flipping burgers and surrounded by people that offer shoulders to cry on. But no, he tried to be an engineer. Surrounded by people that think differently, that think like real engineers, and that don’t even realize that failure in the corner might actually need a bit of human compassion, not that they’d know how to give it if they did notice.

"There seems to be a correlation between engineering degrees and terrorism. I say it’s because losers predisposed to terrorism are more likely to have their failures become obvious when they try to be engineers. People that fail at a non-engineering careers will have an easier time and are thus less likely to blame the world and radicalize, even if predisposed to it. I suspect the difference is enough to skew the statistic to this correlation."


----------



## Old Sweat

This calls to mind the adage:

Q. What does an engineer use as a birth control device?

A. His personality.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Thats right Old Sweat. As the old joke goes:

Engineer 1 (on campus) to Engineer 2: "Wow! Nice new bike, where did you get it?

E2 to E1: You wont believe this, I was crossing the commons from the Science lab when this beautiful blonde on a bike stops in front of me, throws her bike to the ground, takes off all her clothing and tells me: Take what you want!!!

E1 to E2: Good choice, the clothes probably wouldn't have fit you.


----------



## AbdullahD

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I will try to give you a breakdown of what is said but I will need a pen and paper because its very in depth.



Hi Sir 

I managed to get to wifi and watched a bit of this chap, I have to admit I turned it off after a while. I disagree with a lot of what he is saying, even in the first few minutes he has created debatable and/or false arguments with no proof.

Of course some of what he says is true, but I do not have time to debunk everything he has misrepresented. It is basically from what I saw the same stuff you find on troll websites like AnsweringIslam.com or whatever it is called.

When I get home if you wish I will tell you off some books I have that are very good, in my opinion. in the meanwhile,  if you wish, Mufti Menk spent 30 hours give or take doing a youtube series on the life of the prophet... feel free to watch that if interested.

Of course with all things in history, you have my version, their version and what the truth is. So take my side as extremely pro-Islam if you will, then look at the other side and see what seems true to you.

Thanks for your time.
Abdullah


----------



## George Wallace

Many will find this unconscionable. 

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> RCMP not charging jihadis who say 'sorry'
> The SUN
> BY ANTHONY FUREY, POSTMEDIA NETWORK
> FIRST POSTED: TUESDAY, MARCH 08, 2016 07:28 PM EST | UPDATED: TUESDAY, MARCH 08, 2016 07:35 PM EST
> 
> The RCMP is focusing on "direct interventions" with the dozens of known jihadis on Canadian soil, instead of laying charges, Commissioner Bob Paulson has revealed.
> 
> CSIS director Michel Coulombe told a Senate committee on Monday there are currently 60 Canadians known to have returned home from going abroad to participate in terrorist activities. Their activities range from engaging in paramilitary exercises to providing logistical support to receiving jihadist education and training. On top of this, there are another 180 Canadians who remain abroad for such purposes and could eventually return home.
> 
> According to the Criminal Code, leaving the country or attempting to leave to participate in terror is illegal.
> 
> "If we're not getting the evidence, are we satisfying the safety issues by surveillance and other techniques while we collect the evidence or are there alternative ways of keeping communities safe by direct interventions with the individual or his family?" RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson told reporters following his testimony Tuesday before the House of Commons public safety and security committee.
> 
> In some cases it appears the RCMP is simply choosing not to lay charges based on expectations that the individual won't further pursue terrorist activities.
> 
> "In other cases, we've assessed that they're back, they're sorry, they're working to try to get their heads straight and we're relying on family members or other professionals," Paulson added.
> 
> A Senate report from 2015 recommended the government enforce the Criminal Code. It appears the Liberals agree.
> 
> "Where the grounds exist for specific legal action that action will be taken," public safety minister Ralph Goodale said Tuesday. "If people have committed offences under Canadian law, then the appropriate legal consequences need to flow."
> 
> Goodale would not comment on any specific cases.
> 
> - with files from David Akin




More on LINK.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Looks like there was an "incident" in Brussels, guess it must have a rough neighbourhood too...    Shared under the fair dealings provisions of the copyright act.



> *Brussels raid over Paris attacks: Dead gunman was Algerian national*
> 
> A terrorism suspect shot dead in a raid in a Brussels suburb on Tuesday has been identified as Algerian national Mohamed Belkaid, officials say.
> 
> He was killed by snipers while trying to fire at police from an apartment window in the suburb of Forest.
> 
> Four officers were wounded in the raid. Police are still hunting two suspects who were in the apartment.
> 
> The raid was linked to an investigation into the jihadist attacks in Paris that killed 130 people last November.
> 
> The so-called Islamic State (IS) militant group said it carried out the attacks.
> 
> According to the prosecutors' spokesman, an IS flag was recovered from the apartment raided on Tuesday, along with Salafist (ultra-conservative Islamic) literature and Kalashnikov ammunition.
> 
> The spokesman told reporters that Belkaid was born in 1980 and had been living in Belgium illegally. He was not known to the authorities except for one case of robbery.
> 
> Police went to search an apartment in Forest on Tuesday afternoon. As they entered, they were fired upon by at least two occupants, the spokesman said.
> 
> While Belkaid was shot dead that evening, two suspects who were with him managed to escape and became the subject of a police manhunt.
> 
> The prosecutor's spokesman said further searches were carried out near the apartment, and more ammunition was recovered.
> 
> Two men arrested later - including one who was brought to hospital with a broken leg - have since been released without charge.
> 
> Much of Forest was under lockdown on Tuesday, including schools and kindergartens.
> 
> Belgium's De Standaard newspaper (in Dutch) quotes its sources as saying that investigators had been expecting to raid a safe house used in connection with the Paris attacks.
> 
> They had not expected the flat to be occupied, as its water and electricity had been disconnected for some time.
> 
> Officials have identified most of the people they believe to have carried out the assaults on 13 November - many of whom were based in Brussels.
> 
> Most of the suspects either died during the attacks or were killed in later police raids.
> 
> Parts of Brussels were sealed off for days after the Paris massacre amid fears of a major incident. Brussels police have carried out a series of raids.
> 
> French police also took part in Tuesday's operation in Brussels. One of the officers wounded in the raid was a French policewoman, officials said.
> 
> What happened in Forest on Tuesday?
> ■Six police officers - four Belgian and two French - go to a house in the Rue du Dries at 14:15 (13:15 GMT) local time
> ■After opening the apartment door, the officers are fired at by at least two people. Three of the officers are slightly wounded, including a French female police officer
> ■The police are able to retreat safely and call for back up. In the hours that follow, bullets are fired from the apartment - in one instance, slightly injuring a Belgian officer
> ■A suspect later identified as Mohamed Belkaid is killed by a police sniper as he tries to open fire from a window of the apartment. His body is later found in the flat. Beside him is a Kalashnikov and a book on Salafism
> ■Two suspects believed to be present in the flat manage to escape the scene and a manhunt begins
> ■Another house is searched in the Rue de l'Eau in Forest, where a Kalashnikov is found. Further houses and car parking areas are searched with no results
> ■At about 20:15 an injured man is brought to hospital in Halle with a broken leg and undergoes immediate surgery. He is arrested after a person who came with him flees the scene
> ■A man is taken in for questioning at a house in Chaussee de Neerstal in Forest
> ■Both men are later released without charge
> 
> Information provided by the Belgian prosecutor's office on 16 March 2016
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35817793


----------



## Journeyman

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Looks like there was an "incident" in Brussels, guess it must have a rough neighbourhood too...



        :stirpot:     ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar

"If you kill your enemies, they win”: Justin Trudeau


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Looks like there was an "incident" in Brussels, guess it must have a rough neighbourhood too ...


Steeeeeeeeeeeady the Buffs, there ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

Phew.... looks like they almost raised the threat level to "incident" in Paris today.  Close shave....that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3495429/Imminent-terrorist-attack-Paris-foiled-police-arrest-three-men-woman-dawn-raid.html


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Stop the shit disturbing :stirpot:

---Staff---


----------



## jollyjacktar

Aye, aye.


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://www.therebel.media/calgary_greenway_by_election_liberal_candidate_s_sharia_friendly_past_trumps_his_political_opportunism


> ut another thing that Karbani didn’t disclose was that he previously ran as a Wildrose candidate in Calgary-McCall in 2011. The party became suspicious when 6,000 memberships had been sold leading up to the election. And he was disqualified when the Wildrose Party discovered that people that didn’t want to join had been signed up, members were living at addresses that didn’t exist and duplicate memberships were sold to the same person.
> 
> It looks like Khalil Karbani is another opportunist that will run for any party in order to get elected, much like Progressive Conservative candidate Prab Gill.
> 
> The candidate was also the Chair of Events and Communications with the Muslim Council of Calgary from 2013 to 2015. And while he was in this position, the council posted a booklet entitled “Answers to Non-Muslims – Common Questions About Islam” written by radical Indian hate preacher Dr. Zakir Naik who believes that all Muslims should be terrorists, that Jews are Islam’s staunchest enemy and that child marriage is okay, as long as a girl has hit puberty. Naik was even banned from speaking in Canada.
> 
> In this booklet, Naik also maintains that Sharia Law is preferential and that chopping off the hands of thieves is acceptable punishment.



Sounds like a great addition to the Wildrose Liberal team.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> http://www.therebel.media/calgary_greenway_by_election_liberal_candidate_s_sharia_friendly_past_trumps_his_political_opportunism
> Sounds like a great addition to the Wildrose Liberal team.



Wow! they are calling Zakir Naik a radical hate preacher? that is interesting,  his view on all Muslims being terrorists is taken out of context im pretty sure. I remember watching a video of his were he stated it.

Maybe he has changed in the last few years, but last time I watched a video of his he was very passive. maybe he readicalized.... but i doubt it. Ill be back when I can find evidences for or against... this just seems suspicious. 

Abdullah


----------



## PuckChaser

He was denied entry to both Canada and the UK in 2010. His Canadian ban was due to the founder of the Muslim Canada Congress warning MPs of his extremist views.


----------



## AbdullahD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> He was denied entry to both Canada and the UK in 2010. His Canadian ban was due to the founder of the Muslim Canada Congress warning MPs of his extremist views.




https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Zakir_Naik:_His_Background,_Views_and_Debates

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/18081

http://orbala.blogspot.ca/2012/08/when-zakir-naik-said-all-muslims-should.html?m=1

First link is an overview of his opinions. second link is a fatawa from a strict group in south Africa, saying his debating is ok but his answering questions of Islamic jurisprudence should not be followed. The last link is his refutation of being taken out of context with someone who rips him up a bit.

From what I knew of him, he did follow the Salafi madhab, was controversial because he was a debater and denounced by the Ulema of the four Major Madhabs as spreading fitnah. But I didn't know he had jumped up to being classified as a radical, but I do see why he is classified as such. The problem with people who like their own voice, they tend to get in trouble. 

God knows best, wether he is or isn't. But I cant blame anyone for considering him one. So I guess I'm sorry for trying to defend him, well I'm not in a way, just kinda saddened he is going this route.... if its true.

Abdullah

p.s Madhab means school of thought, the four major school of thoughts (Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and Shafi) make up about 80% or more of what the general Muslim populace follow. Hanafi Madhab being the overwhelming Majority.

Ulema, Means Islamic scholar. Fitnah essentially means to create confusion or problems... Saying daesh is a fitnah is correct. if that helps you understand


----------



## ArmyRick

I watched Dr. Zakir Naik get schooled by a former muslim current medical student aethiest 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEcocSZnk1g

Truth is Dr Naik does not impress me much, like very little to no logic in his arguments and lots of shouting

AbdullahD,
You better understand, military people are very "spock like" meaning they are very logical thinkers that thrive on logic, facts, evidence, science, etc. Hence why Liberals are usually not very popular on army.ca

George Wallace had put a fantastic video IMO about moderation in Islam and a few progressive thoughts on it 
https://www.facebook.com/nevereveragainever/videos/573648132801385/ 

Also, you stated earlier that you did not bother to watch Dr Bill Warner's video on history of Islam. If you want to prove him wrong, please state some specifics. I have been slowly cross checking what he says about the wars between islam and Christian through the ages and so far, all seems acurate. BTW he does point out the blood and evil on the hands of Christians and Jews in that video.

I watched almost all the videos you sent me a link for (made understanding some of the Quaran passages much easier to understand, I will admit)


----------



## AbdullahD

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I watched Dr. Zakir Naik get schooled by a former muslim current medical student aethiest
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEcocSZnk1g
> 
> Truth is Dr Naik does not impress me much, like very little to no logic in his arguments and lots of shouting
> 
> AbdullahD,
> You better understand, military people are very "spock like" meaning they are very logical thinkers that thrive on logic, facts, evidence, science, etc. Hence why Liberals are usually not very popular on army.ca
> 
> George Wallace had put a fantastic video IMO about moderation in Islam and a few progressive thoughts on it
> https://www.facebook.com/nevereveragainever/videos/573648132801385/
> 
> Also, you stated earlier that you did not bother to watch Dr Bill Warner's video on history of Islam. If you want to prove him wrong, please state some specifics. I have been slowly cross checking what he says about the wars between islam and Christian through the ages and so far, all seems acurate. BTW he does point out the blood and evil on the hands of Christians and Jews in that video.
> 
> I watched almost all the videos you sent me a link for (made understanding some of the Quaran passages much easier to understand, I will admit)



Sorry for my late reply ArmyRick.

Truth is I was considering how to reply and if one was warranted.

Zakir Naik, does not impress me much either, hence why I am not up to date on him. I was just suprised he is considered a radical. He is not a speaker who is fine tuned to speak to Military spock esque types, hence why it makes sense you dont like him.

The amount of Muslim speakers doing good work, to combat the bad image of Islam are quite a Many and I am glad you liked the personality that Mr.Wallace supplied. I just hope more good personalities come into existance or the media spotlight. 

One of the major reasons I do not feel compelled to debunk absolutely everything that can be debunked is because I am not qualified to do so. I am not saying everything Dr.Warner said is wrong, but my gut and my current knowledge disagrees with some of it. I supplied Mufti Menks life of the prophet youtube link to you, so you could understand there is more to the story. Towards the end of the 40hr series it starts detailing more of the wars, but not extensively, but enough for me and to be honest I dont know much more then what Mufti Menk said in this series.

Just remember I am just some guy, feeling compelled to defend the other side of the story a bit. Mayhap I am making mistakes that makes my conveying ideas to you harder.. but I will try to pick my fights and supply as much evidences as I can... aka ill try to be spock like  but just remember, it would be like me going to a Muslim forum and defending the Armed forces.. I'm mostly ignorant, but I'd try.

In closing I will say, my belief is that Islam is perfect, but Muslims are just Humans. Islam is no threat to the west, but radicalized ignorant Muslims may be, yet those Muslims who are properly practicing Islam are going to be amongst those who stand with you to defend this country from radicals of all kinds. I also believe this is true for Sikhs, Christians, Jews etc. People claiming to be or who are Muslims, have done some heinous acts that there is no excuse for and for that divine punishment or mortal punishment should be dealt out. 

I honestly and sincerely hope we all end up kicking it in paradise together in the next life and we can laugh about these small things.

Abdullah

p.s I'm not a liberal


----------



## ArmyRick

Mufti Menk does speak well and some interesting lessons but when he slips in certain arabic phrases I get lost. I like the bit about not being greedy on charging interest because the poor get poorer and rich get richer.

Of course some interesting history in there too. 

I am also fascinated by the difference experiences between his life in Mecca vs his life in Medina. Hence the suras in Meccan or Medinan?

He faced plenty of hostility.


----------



## ArmyRick

Muhhamad experiences not Menks in the Mecca and medina


----------



## AbdullahD

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Mufti Menk does speak well and some interesting lessons but when he slips in certain arabic phrases I get lost. I like the bit about not being greedy on charging interest because the poor get poorer and rich get richer.
> 
> Of course some interesting history in there too.
> 
> I am also fascinated by the difference experiences between his life in Mecca vs his life in Medina. Hence the suras in Meccan or Medinan?
> 
> He faced plenty of hostility.



I am happy to hear it and yes the Meccan and Medinian surahs have different significances.

 If you want or if you need it I can help with the arabic if you can jot it down for me, Ill try to figure out what it is or just tell me which video at which time.

If not here are some common sayings
http://arabic.speak7.com/islamic_expressions.htm

for an explanation on difference surah styles i believe it is in tafsir Maariful quran i quoted earlier. I can find volume and page number for explanation if you wish. (i have a hard copy at home.)

Thanks for the good review of Mufti Menk, I always enjoyed listening to him

Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

A interesting read on people doing deradicalization work, not sure where else to put it. 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/18/deradicalising-britain-the-activists-turning-young-muslims-away-from-extremism


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brussels airport has just been bombed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpVeZV9BvLY


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Franco web based news here in Quebec reports two explosions, with a second one at a subway station, with 21 confirmed death so far.

http://fr.canoe.ca/infos/international/archives/2016/03/20160322-035519.html


----------



## tomahawk6

Once again Europe's open borders policy has trumped security.Secondly the Belgians caught a terror leader,but he did not give up the details of these attacks.


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> ... the Belgians caught a terror leader, he did not give up the details of these attacks.


Assuming he knew about _these_ attacks, right?


----------



## PuckChaser

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Maybe the attackers were just mentally ill.


Bombings happen all the time in Belgium, everyone shouldn't panic, right?


----------



## George Wallace

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Once again Europe's open borders policy has trumped security.Secondly the Belgians caught a terror leader,but he did not give up the details of these attacks.



Sadly, that reflects on North Americans as well.  Both Canada and the United States of America have no "Pass Controls" between Provinces and States; only at International Border crossings.  Once a 'terrorist' has landed in either country, they have free movement between Provinces/States.  So, open borders in the Schengen Zone is a bit of a stretch here; as it is much smaller zone than what constitutes either the US or Canada, but still has much more actual security than found in North America.  

First reports of the capture of the last Paris Bombing suspect did mention that they believed he had plans for future operations.  These three bombings may have been just some of them.


----------



## a_majoor

Because of the cellular nature of terrorist organizations, it is entirely possible that no one member will be aware of any other operation (and even knowing in general terms that "other attacks are planned" really doesn't provide actionable intelligence).

RIP for the passengers at the airport and metro station


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'll try a different tact.

Anytime there is an attack such as this involving Islamic members it seems like select groups of individuals immediately begin talking about the perils of Islamophobia.

Radical Islamic Man and woman decide to murder a bunch of coworkers in the US? Well more people die from dogs shooting them by accident than terrorists in the US so whats the big deal.


----------



## Jed

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It appears my previous posts were deleted so I'll try a different tact.
> 
> Anytime there is an attack such as this involving Islamic members it seems like select groups of individuals immediately begin talking about the perils of Islamophobia.
> 
> Radical Islamic Man and woman decide to murder a bunch of coworkers in the US? Well more people die from dogs shooting them by accident than terrorists in the US so whats the big deal.



What's the point ????  I must be missing the message you are attempting to convey.  Terrorism is a big deal. It terrorizes nations into submission if you do not combat it head on. As western civilized nations, we can not, must not, succumb to the sick horror we continue to witness.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I agree it's a big deal. My point is there are people in the world and our country who's first reaction is to suggest people are overreacting, racist or suffer from Islamophobia if they say these attacks are a big deal.


----------



## Jed

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I agree it's a big deal. My point is there are people in the world and our country who's first reaction is to suggest people are overreacting, racist or suffer from Islamophobia if they say these attacks are a big deal.



I guess we are in violent aggreement.  [  Just my personal opinion, but it seems to me we have a lot more folks worried about "Islamophopia" than about the effects of terrorism on our societies. The average Joe and Jane just think, well if isn't in my backyard it's not my problem. Let the gov't guys worry about that. (As long as they don't spend any tax dollars trying to get a grip on it.)  Hey, honey... we need to get Janie to her hockey practice.


----------



## The Bread Guy

I think it might be more a question of:  yes, these attacks are significant, but if we want to prevent them, we should be sure that the solution doesn't make things worse.

If the bad guys' aim (at least in part) is to make the West hate _*all*_ Muslims so the bad guys can have a fertile recruiting pool to draw from, and get that holy war a'rollin', then painting _every_ Muslim with a broad brush feeds into that aim.

And just in case you think I'm looking at this as a clinical, sandal-wearing Muslim-lovin' lefty peacenik multiculturalist, someone I worked with for a long time works @ NATO HQ and I haven't heard anything from them yet - although I'm guessing mobile/cell and internet networks will be swamped due to folks checking in - so I'd like to see the appropriate bad guys brought to justice, too.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And just in case you think I'm looking at this as a clinical, sandal-wearing Muslim-lovin' lefty peacenik multiculturalist, someone I worked with for a long time works @ NATO HQ and I haven't heard anything from them yet - although I'm guessing mobile/cell and internet networks will be swamped due to folks checking in - so I'd like to see the appropriate bad guys brought to justice, too.



I don't think anyone ever thought that you, Milnews.

If you can take some comfort from this: I have been in touch with the wife of my friend who is at NATO HQ now, and she did manage to speak to him (doubt it's the same friend, he is British Royal Navy). She says that he told her that so far, none of the victims have been identified amongst the HQ personnel and as far as they can tell, everybody has checked in (her exact words).


----------



## AbdullahD

I hope god makes this easy for the victims 

It is interesting how we need to combat terrorism, but we need to walk a fine line and not label all Muslims as terrorist. Because doing that will create the breeding ground milnews talked about.

Saying "Islamic Terrorists" did this, creates reactions in people who hold less then favorable views of Muslims that make terrorist recruitmemt easier.

So how do we reach out to the impressionable youth who will be affected by these fools, before the terrorists get to them. I think reporting needs to happen, but have other faiths reach out to Muslim youth so they can feel like a part of the community. 

sorry i know this has been covered. i just hate seeing pointless death and destruction .

Abdullah


----------



## a_majoor

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I hope god makes this easy for the victims
> 
> It is interesting how we need to combat terrorism, but we need to walk a fine line and not label all Muslims as terrorist. Because doing that will create the breeding ground milnews talked about.
> 
> Saying "Islamic Terrorists" did this, creates reactions in people who hold less then favorable views of Muslims that make terrorist recruitmemt easier.
> 
> So how do we reach out to the impressionable youth who will be affected by these fools, before the terrorists get to them. I think reporting needs to happen, but have other faiths reach out to Muslim youth so they can feel like a part of the community.
> 
> sorry i know this has been covered. i just hate seeing pointless death and destruction .
> 
> Abdullah



I think we discussed this either upthread or in a different thread, but part of the problem right now is the people being radicalized and taking action are not the "poor and dispossessed" but rather people who would be characterized as middle class or upper middle class, and who have the education and background of the middle class wherever they come from. I'm certainly not smart enough to suggest "how" to deal with this, and indeed my own admittedly skimpy reading of the Koran don't equip me to point out if the problem lies there. After all, the Bible is pretty full of violence and alarming statements (Stanley Kubrick brough this to satirical life in the movie "A Clockwork Orange" where the sociopathic Alex enjoys sermons by the priest because he is fantasizing about being the Centurion flogging Jesus), but very few people in real life go on murder sprees or suicide bombing based on biblical teachings.

I feel the answer lies elsewhere (culture perhaps?), and violent people are latching onto Islam as a casue, even if it is only peripherally relevant.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone ever thought that you, Milnews.


Still always good to be clear  ;D



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> If you can take some comfort from this: I have been in touch with the wife of my friend who is at NATO HQ now, and she did manage to speak to him (doubt it's the same friend, he is British Royal Navy). She says that he told her that so far, none of the victims have been identified amongst the HQ personnel and as far as they can tell, everybody has checked in (her exact words).


Just got an email from my bud.  It appears it's crazy trying to communicate out, but alle ist gut - thanks for sharing that.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I think we discussed this either upthread or in a different thread, but part of the problem right now is the people being radicalized and taking action are not the "poor and dispossessed" but rather people who would be characterized as middle class or upper middle class, and who have the education and background of the middle class wherever they come from. I'm certainly not smart enough to suggest "how" to deal with this, and indeed my own admittedly skimpy reading of the Koran don't equip me to point out if the problem lies there. After all, the Bible is pretty full of violence and alarming statements (Stanley Kubrick brough this to satirical life in the movie "A Clockwork Orange" where the sociopathic Alex enjoys sermons by the priest because he is fantasizing about being the Centurion flogging Jesus), but very few people in real life go on murder sprees or suicide bombing based on biblical teachings.
> 
> I feel the answer lies elsewhere (culture perhaps?), and violent people are latching onto Islam as a casue, even if it is only peripherally relevant.



You know what, the more I read from you and others on this forum.. the more I feel you chaps should be formative members of the Anti-Terrorism units.

You are right, we have discussed it before. I have dealt with a couple myself and I know them to be anything but poor and ignorant. But for some reason I keep going to this mindset... somehow it is just a hard disconnect for me to think intelligent people do crap so stupid.

I think you are right culture or something else is the issue. I am starting to think that these people feel men are being emasculated these days and that these horrific acts are a way to feel manly. 

Maybe it is culture, most of africa and the mid east has not seen a lot of peace for a long time and maybe it has worked itself into the psyche of the people.

Reading any holy book lightly and quickly can get a chap into anything he wants to get out of it. Mayhap it is a general ignorance Muslims have about Islam mxed with cultural and social issues or...

But I think you are on to something. Hopefully someone wise and powerful is on to it too and they find a solution. I'll do everything I can for the communities im in, but sadly this is a global issue not a local one.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Saying "Islamic Terrorists" did this, creates reactions in people who hold less then favorable views of Muslims that make terrorist recruitmemt easier.



Islamic terrorists DID do this. We owe it to the dead and injured to not mince words or find convenient politically correct neutral terms to describe the perpetrators. 
Let's face it if calling an Islamic terrorist an Islamic terrorist pushes someone into the arms of the terrorists then honestly they were already well on their way in that direction.


----------



## vonGarvin

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Let's face it if calling an Islamic terrorist an Islamic terrorist pushes someone into the arms of the terrorists then honestly they were already well on their way in that direction.


100% Agree.


----------



## Loachman

There are people from all faiths, levels of education, cultures, and regions that have some pretty wacky ideas. Plenty of otherwise-intelligent people do stupid/criminal/immoral stuff all over the planet. That is not unique to the Muslim world. Most are harmless and merely invite ridicule, but some of them - Nazis and Communists - have managed to cause (so far) even more death, destruction, and suffering than terrorists who claim to be fulfilling the wishes of Allah, and who are absolutely certain that they are true Muslims.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And just in case you think I'm looking at this as a clinical, sandal-wearing Muslim-lovin' lefty peacenik multiculturalist.....


NEVER~!

A _bread-baking_, sandal-wearing, Muslim-lovin', lefty peacenik, multiculturalist.... perhaps.   ;D



[not serious {OK, except about the bread-baking}.... just in case there are flinches brewing]


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=milnews.ca] then painting _every_ Muslim with a broad brush feeds into that aim.

[/quote]

I agree with you 100%. At the same time I find suggesting _not all Muslims are terrorists_ (while clearly true) is another one of those automatic responses after an attack.  I don't think most people need to be reminded not all Muslims are terrorists, the ones who DO believe that aren't in a position to have their mind changed anyways.


I would say one of my biggest issues or concerns about Islam (and though it Muslims) is how quickly "average" every day peace loving law abiding Muslims seem ready to turn ultra violent.  Burn a bible in front of a church surrounded by it's congregation and you may get called an asshole but that's probably it. Good chance some of them will want to hug you. Try that with a Quran and you may very well get ripped apart.

Look at Farkhunda Malikzada. She was a 27 year old Afghan woman living in Kabul who was murdered by a mob in March of 2015. We're not talking about hard core Taliban but "average" citizens. They thought she burned a Quran, a mob formed and the crowd stomped on her, kicked her in the head and started ripping at her clothes. The local police tried in vain to remove her but they were overwhelmed by the crowd.  She was then beaten into unconsciousness, ran over with a car, dragged  300 feet with the car then they set her on fire and watched her burn. The crowd apparently used parts of their own clothing to keep the fire going because the womans own clothes were too soaked in blood to stay alight. 
It was found she never burned anything.  She was simply accused of it by a mullah with whom she was arguing with.

Islam goes from 0 to BURN THE HERETIC in seconds and I believe that's what sets it apart from the majority of other religions and one of the reasons it rubs so many people the wrong way.


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Islam goes from 0 to BURN THE HERETIC in seconds and I believe that's what sets it apart from the majority of other religions and one of the reasons it rubs so many people the wrong way.



Given the right circumstances, so could Christians. So called "Christians" lynched African Americans - and sent postcards about it.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> NEVER~!
> 
> A _bread-baking_, sandal-wearing, Muslim-lovin', lefty peacenik, multiculturalist.... perhaps.   ;D
> 
> 
> 
> [not serious {OK, except about the bread-baking}.... just in case there are flinches brewing]


:rofl:


----------



## ArmyRick

Battling this issue from my perspective is a multiangle approach

-Acknowledge that it was Islamic terrorist this time
-In the past we have had IRA, KKK, Black Panthers, Communist Guerellas, Basque Separatist, FLQ, etc Terrorist have come in many flavours
-We must have contingency plans in place and take the appropriate preventive measures
-Do not, DO NOT label all Muslims as terrorist and go on a lynch mob rampage
-For the Muslim community, it would go along way to hear public outrage against such actions (the terrorist incidents in Paris and Brussels)
-Let Police, CSIS, Military do their jobs
-IF/When we catch such people, the justice must be swift and severe to deter others (If you stand against Canada and her allies, NO MERCY)

I believe that education and "reverse indoctrination" (living in western culture) can go along ways to help combat Islamic radicalisation. It will take along way and a long time to fight this problem.
It needs a change in the way people think and believe, not just in the way they act (we want more than compliance, we want everybody to embrace our Canadian culture)

Note I say Canadian culture NOT christian culture

I personally want to emphasize some of the true Canadian democratic beliefs I hold to (separation of Church and state in other words Sharia Law NEVER, equality among people of different sexes, race and religion, equal judgement of others regardless of income, race, creed, etc , we all have an equal say when we are law abiding citizens)


----------



## cavalryman

:goodpost:


----------



## tomahawk6

Everyone living in the US is subject to US law no matter what your background is.So why should there be a seperate justice system for say muslims ? It undermines our society.If you live in Iran you are subject to their law.WE fought a cold war to oppose communist expansion and a threat to our way of life.Now we have another threat to our way of life - radical islam and its goal of world domination.In this case they are using our own civil rights law against us.Its insidious and people need to wake up.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I agree with you 100%. At the same time I find suggesting _not all Muslims are terrorists_ (while clearly true) is another one of those automatic responses after an attack.  I don't think most people need to be reminded not all Muslims are terrorists, the ones who DO believe that aren't in a position to have their mind changed anyways.
> 
> 
> I would say one of my biggest issues or concerns about Islam (and though it Muslims) is how quickly "average" every day peace loving law abiding Muslims seem ready to turn ultra violent.  Burn a bible in front of a church surrounded by it's congregation and you may get called an ******* but that's probably it. Good chance some of them will want to hug you. Try that with a Quran and you may very well get ripped apart.
> 
> Look at Farkhunda Malikzada. She was a 27 year old Afghan woman living in Kabul who was murdered by a mob in March of 2015. We're not talking about hard core Taliban but "average" citizens. They thought she burned a Quran, a mob formed and the crowd stomped on her, kicked her in the head and started ripping at her clothes. The local police tried in vain to remove her but they were overwhelmed by the crowd.  She was then beaten into unconsciousness, ran over with a car, dragged  300 feet with the car then they set her on fire and watched her burn. The crowd apparently used parts of their own clothing to keep the fire going because the womans own clothes were too soaked in blood to stay alight.
> It was found she never burned anything.  She was simply accused of it by a mullah with whom she was arguing with.
> 
> Islam goes from 0 to BURN THE HERETIC in seconds and I believe that's what sets it apart from the majority of other religions and one of the reasons it rubs so many people the wrong way.



Thank you for the explanation, These so called "Mullahs" doing these things are a disease and need to be removed.

Anyone who exercises that kind of power in that way, needs to be removed. But I also dont think it is just a Muslim thing, we are just the latest incarnation of it.

Now I respect your view and feel no need to field a response to it other  then this;

If you hear of a Steve Christianson (random name) commiting xyz attacks, in xyz country or a Klu Klux Klan Member commiting attacks... you will get a general feel for their ideology. So instead of saying a Christian extremist, saying a KKK extremist did xyz crime.

Just like if you heard Osama Bin Fitnah an agent for the Daesh extremist in the middle east committed xyz crime. You inmediately understand who and what he is,  but you dont make Innocent people guilty by religious association.

These people need to be treated like petty criminals to undermine their legitimacy in the eyes of those susceptible to radicalization and by not calling them Islamic Terrorists, Muslims dont feel threatened and yet we can still work with the authorities on these issues because they directly affect us. 

Sorry if im not being clear, I hope you understand.  Even if you think im dead wrong lol

Abdullah

p.s my edits are to add in news links for muslims speaking out

http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Catholic-Muslim-leaders-respond-to-Brussels-6945611.php

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2016/03/22/louisville-muslims-speak-out-brussels-attack/82128032/


----------



## PuckChaser

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> If you hear of a Steve Christianson (random name) commiting xyz attacks, in xyz country or a Klu Klux Klan Member commiting attacks... you will get a general feel for their ideology. So instead of saying a Christian extremist, saying a KKK extremist did xyz crime.
> 
> Just like if you heard Osama Bin Fitnah an agent for the Daesh extremist in the middle east committed xyz crime. You inmediately understand who and what he is,  but you dont make Innocent people guilty by religious association.
> 
> These people need to be treated like petty criminals to undermine their legitimacy in the eyes of those susceptible to radicalization and by not calling them Islamic Terrorists, Muslims dont feel threatened and yet we can still work with the authorities on these issues because they directly affect us.



I have no problem if you called someone a Christian terrorist, because by definition they are using their messed up view of Christian faith to commit terrorist acts. Using an adjective onto terrorist simply subdivides a really large term that means someone using violence to further a religious ideology/political goal. Those people who bomb pipelines? Eco-terrorists. People who bomb Planned Parenthood? If a Jew walks into a Palestinian mosque and blows himself up, he should be labelled as a Judaic terrorist, because his ideology (right or wrong) drove him to do that.

Just because someone uses the term Islamic terrorist, doesn't mean that person thinks all Muslims are terrorists.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Agreed.  If you're committing a terrorist act in support of x,y or z then you're an x, y or z terrorist.  Period. 

I have no problem with labelling you as such and vilifying you for it.  And better still, seeing you star in some predator porn because of it.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Agreed.  If you're committing a terrorist act in support of x,y or z then you're an x, y or z terrorist.  Period.
> 
> I have no problem with labelling you as such and vilifying you for it.  And better still, seeing you star in some predator porn because of it.



I think we can get along


----------



## jollyjacktar

That's the refrain my distant cousin Rodney always asked.  To quote Barack,  "yes, we can" :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I think we can get along





			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Agreed.  If you're committing a terrorist act in support of x,y or z then you're an x, y or z terrorist.  Period.
> 
> I have no problem with labelling you as such and vilifying you for it.  And better still, seeing you star in some predator porn because of it.



I think we have some winners here. I'm with both of you.

And for the record....I like Predator Porn. Gunship porn is good too.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I think we have some winners here. I'm with both of you.
> 
> And for the record....I like Predator Porn. Gunship porn is good too.



Spooky porn is the best.


----------



## The Bread Guy

An interesting list of "commentary IA's" following terror attacks from someone who writes about Russian affairs:


> Once again terrorism has struck Europe, this time in Brussels, and the whole cycle begins anew. What cycle am I referring to? I guess the best comparison is something like a morbid, shameful version of “the 12 Days of Christmas.”
> 
> We’ve got Americans who’ve never had a passport talking about how this could have been prevented if only Belgians could carry concealed handguns.
> 
> Out of those, a certain portion will explain what they would have done in that situation, had they been allowed to carry their concealed firearm.
> 
> There are the Islamophobes screaming “I told you so” while totally ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Muslims don’t do anything like this, and if even 1% of them were, European cities would look like a war zone.
> 
> We’ll get the over-compensating liberal who insists that this has “nothing to do with Islam at all.”
> 
> There’s the snarky little s**t who needs to remind everyone that changing your Facebook profile pic “doesn’t actually do anything,” because obviously anyone doing that believes that it does.
> 
> There’s the radical leftist demanding to know why these people didn’t change their profile pic to the flag of some other country that recently suffered a terrorist attack, just as they did as soon as they heard about the attack in Brussels.
> 
> Perhaps another leftist, maybe the same as the one above, will immediately remind everybody that this terrorism is the result of foreign policy, specifically that of the US, because otherwise nobody would know. And yes, I’ve already received reports of folks like this blaming the attacks on Belgian colonialism in the Congo. You read that correctly.
> 
> You’ve got Russian political figures rubbing their hands with glee over the misfortune of Europeans. And before you claim that there wasn’t enough sympathy over the Russian Sinai airliner bombing- keep in mind that the Russian government took a long time to even acknowledge the possibility that it was a terrorist attack even as Western governments were strongly suggesting that terrorism was the cause of the disaster.
> 
> And I don’t even need to check to know that hundreds if not thousands of people were declaring the attacks to be a “false flag” staged by the government even before the blood dried ...


And on that false flag thing?  Sure enough, it's already out there via the folks at globalresearch.ca  :facepalm:


----------



## Jarnhamar

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Spooky porn is the best.



Took me a second to get that. i was thinking, like that guy with the mask in scream videos?


			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> An interesting list of "commentary IA's" following terror attacks




That list seems bang on.


----------



## tomahawk6

I was having trouble agreeing with the author until this paragraph.



> I don’t want to overstate the threat of ISIS. Movements just as barbaric and destructive as theirs have lasted far longer and probably done more damage. But it seems that they’re the only people who believe in anything, as horrible as that anything is.* Maybe the reason we haven’t smacked them down yet is that we have become so cynical about our values, so disconnected from them, that we can’t muster up the courage to stand up for them.*


----------



## Kilo_302

A Gwynne Dyer column on the threat of terrorism. It would serve us well to take a deep breath and think before reacting to attacks like the ones in Belgium. 



> elgium may be a boring country, but it still seems extreme for a Belgian politician to say the country is now living through its darkest days since the end of the Second World War. Can any country really be so lucky that the worst thing that has happened to it in the past 70 years is a couple of bombs that killed 34 people?
> 
> Respect for the innocent people killed by terrorists does not require us to take leave of our senses. What is happening now is a media feeding frenzy that has become almost a statutory requirement after every terrorist attack in the West.
> 
> The fact that I am writing about the bombs in Brussels contributes to the delusion that they are not only nasty, but also important.
> 
> It is the volume of coverage that determines an event's perceived importance, not what is actually said about it. But if we in the media are compelled to write about an event like the Belgian bombs anyway, what can we truthfully say about it that will not feed the panic?
> 
> The first thing, after every terrorist attack, is to stress that media coverage of the attack is its primary purpose, indeed, almost its only purpose.
> 
> Second, we have to put the alleged "threat" of such terrorist attacks into perspective. People rarely do this for themselves, because once events are beyond the range of their daily experience most people cannot distinguish between what is truly dangerous and what is only dramatic and frightening.
> 
> It does help to remind people that terrorism is a statistically insignificant risk, that they are in much greater danger of dying from a fall in the bath than of dying in a terrorist attack.
> 
> And finally, a little dispassionate analysis quickly deflates the notion that terrorism is "an existential threat" (as British Prime Minister David Cameron once said). For example, the recent terrorist attacks in Europe largely have been confined to French-speaking countries.
> 
> Muslim immigrants in France and Belgium mostly come from Arab countries, and especially from North Africa, where French is the second language. Radical Islamism is much weaker in the rest of the Muslim world, so Germany (whose Muslims are mostly Turkish) and Britain (where they are mostly of South Asian origin) generate fewer Islamist extremists than the francophone countries, and face fewer terrorist attacks.
> 
> France's and Belgium's Muslim citizens also are less integrated into the wider community. French housing policy has dumped most of the immigrants in high-rise, low-income developments at the edge of the cities, often beyond the end of the metro lines. Unemployed, poorly educated and culturally isolated, their young men are more easily recruited into extremist groups.
> 
> There is no terrorist army in Belgium, just a bunch of young men making it up as they go along. For example, the Brussels attacks happened four days after the arrest of Salah Abdeslam, the sole survivor of the gang who carried out the attacks on the Bataclan arena and the Stade de France in Paris last November.
> 
> Back in Brussels after failing to use his suicide vest in the Paris attack, Abdeslam was a psychological wreck, and his Islamist colleagues undoubtedly expected that once in police custody he would sing like a canary. So they decided to launch another attack and go to glory before the police kicked in their doors.
> 
> Prime Minister Charles Michel issued the usual incantation about Belgians being "determined to defend our freedom," but Belgium's freedom is not at risk. Terrorists are not an existential threat. They are a lethal nuisance, but no more than a nuisance.


----------



## tomahawk6

How should we be viewing attacks such as Paris and Brussels ? Take a deep breath you say ? These are attacks upon civilian populations designed to make people fear muslim terrorists.In the case of IS their goal is to add Europe to their caliphate.Of course they can resist or give in.Events in Syria and Iraq demonstrate that there can be no compromise if you want to keep your head on your shoulders.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Gwynne Dyer gets one thing right in my _uninformed_ opinion:

          "The first thing, after every terrorist attack, is to stress that media coverage of the attack is its primary purpose, indeed, almost its only purpose."


First, I stress that my _opinion_ is _*uninformed*_. I know little about terrorism, except that it is a tactic, not a belief system or a nationality; and I know even less, therefore, about counter-terrorism, except that it doesn't seem to be working very well; but I do know, personally, some people who do study terrorism and think about it a lot and, generally, I defer to their opinions.

But, second, it does _seem_ rather intuitively obvious to me that since one of the main aims of terror attacks is to frighten people, then "communicating" the attack is, indeed, one of the most important outcomes. If there are no frantic media reports about the attacks in Brussels then the people in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Liège will not be frightened, will they?


----------



## tomahawk6

The flip side is that an informed public can help law enforcement.


----------



## Kilo_302

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How should we be viewing attacks such as Paris and Brussels ? Take a deep breath you say ? These are attacks upon civilian populations designed to make people fear muslim terrorists.In the case of IS their goal is to add Europe to their caliphate.Of course they can resist or give in.Events in Syria and Iraq demonstrate that there can be no compromise if you want to keep your head on your shoulders.



Just what E.R. said. Taking a deep breath and understanding they AREN'T an existential threat to the West, and don't let the media report it that way. If they're designed to make people fear terrorists, the second half of your post about the caliphate basically is helping their cause.

The fact is, many governments find ISIS a convenient bogeyman. It's clear no one in the West is serious about defeating terrorism. If we were, we wouldn't be using military force, and/or we definitely wouldn't be using it with such half-measures like the bombing campaign we've seen. I find it hard to believe policymakers haven't learned that military force just draws more recruits. We've been at this for 15 years. Maybe it's time for a new strategy.


----------



## Journeyman

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Maybe it's time for a new strategy.


Suggestions?


----------



## Flavus101

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Suggestions?



Exactly, people who say that something is messed up without offering up even a bit of a solution aren't much of a help.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Suggestions?



As John Powell suggests, we need to invite them to join us for drinks at the Dorchester.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/-sp-how-to-talk-to-terrorists-isis-al-qaida

Of course, we'll also need politicians with the guts to follow this example. Good luck with that.


----------



## tomahawk6

The Belgian government has admitted to making some mistakes. :-\

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/25/belgian-government-admits-errors-hindered-effort-to-stop-brussels-attacks.html?intcmp=hpbt1

"We are looking at large numbers of foreign fighters who have returned as potential terrorists," he said. "And we are faced with a strategic decision by the Islamic State to aggressively target Europe. These are all very challenging dimensions. As for how large the community is and who has been sent back - that is the golden question."


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> As John Powell suggests, we need to invite them to join us for drinks at the Dorchester.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/-sp-how-to-talk-to-terrorists-isis-al-qaida
> 
> Of course, we'll also need politicians with the guts to follow this example. Good luck with that.



Great article- thanks!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe policymakers haven't learned that military force just draws more recruits. We've been at this for 15 years. Maybe it's time for a new strategy.



 :blah:   Have you ever done anything to try to find/kill any of these people?  Or are you just complaining from behind the wall of protection provided by others with no intent to even 'suggest the new strategy', let alone be a part of it.  

Tell the families of the loved one killed in the past, oh, decade and a half, that terrorism is 'nothing to worry about'.  We can contain/kill them in their own back yard, or they will come to ours.  Their long term goal is to convert or kill your grandkids, what is happening today is to set up the victory of the future.  Stop being shortsighted with your head in the sand.  There is a threat to the western world.  It is real.  It just isn't knocking directly on your door...yet.


----------



## Rifleman62

http://nypost.com/2016/03/23/what-europe-needs-to-do-to-stop-the-next-brussels/
*
What Europe needs to do to stop the next Brussels*

By Ralph Peters March 23, 2016 

What used to be bitter slums are now militant colonies.

The Muslim guts of European cities, from Brussels to Marseilles, and the high-rise banlieues of Paris (designed by the left as earthly paradises) or the grubby Stadtteile of Cologne or Hamburg, are no longer way-stations for readjusting immigrants. They’re imperial holdings of a bloodthirsty caliphate, poisoned with the spirit of jihad.

And the Islamist fanatics who rule from the shadows intend to slaughter the trusting aborigines, whose tribal chiefs are enchanted by the trinkets of political correctness — as we were reminded, again, Tuesday when terrorists killed 31 and injured hundreds in a double-barrel attack in Brussels.

Will Islam really conquer Europe? Of course not. But reality leaves Islamist terrorists unconvinced and unmoved.

And they’ve already disrupted societies, upended politics and seized strategic ground at Europe’s heart: The Brussels attacks were symbolically perfect, striking not only a national capital, but the headquarters of the European Union and NATO.

Consider Belgium. The police and intelligence organizations (mindlessly divided between Flemish- and French-speakers) couldn’t crack the local Muslim community. Contributing scores of jihadis to ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Molenbeek and neighboring slums also protected the terrorists in their midst.

Some locals must have known. Many more must have suspected. But none warned the authorities that hundreds of their “fellow Belgians” faced impending attacks.

The roots of radicalism had gone so deep that support for the fanatics trumped even the desire for self-protection. Of course, the locals saw that, in the wake of multiple terror attacks and arrests, they’d face suspicion, scrutiny and an end to the craven tolerance of their crimes.

But nobody talked. Nobody will.

Nonetheless, “humanitarian” groups will continue to defend the “rights” to government financial, medical and housing support for those who send their sons on jihad and beat their daughters to death.

Which brings us to the question: What can Europeans do? If they somehow summon the strength of will? Before the situation worsens monstrously?

Apart from the obvious measure of restricting migration that seeks only to feed at the public trough, there are three steps Europeans could (but likely won’t) take:

First, work on the families. In the Islamic cultures of the Middle East and North Africa, the family is the fortress. European states need laws that permanently deny all further state assistance, including subsidized housing, to the extended families of terrorists and their abettors.

Collective punishment? Islamist terror is a collective crime. As the residents of Molenbeek just reminded us. You have to do what works. And we need to remember the elementary truth that receiving countries owe immigrants nothing beyond their physical safety. We’re not in their debt, they’re in ours.

Second, not only resident status, but citizenship must be revoked from anyone affiliated with terror — including birthright citizenship. We must stop letting left-wing activists creatively interpret international law to protect monsters bent on massacre. (Liberal Canada) The first human right is for law-abiding citizens to be able to live in peace, free of bodily harm.

Third — and toughest — the Europeans need to find ways to break up the Islamist colonies that even the police prefer to avoid. Just as European colonialists brought smallpox to the natives of the Americas, the jihadi colonists bring their plague of fanaticism.

Even in our own country, where a different class of Muslim immigrant — largely educated, ambitious and law-abiding — means we don’t face the crisis Europe does, the toughest problems we do face come when Muslims from underdeveloped states are allowed to immigrate in mass and concentrate in one area. (Minnesota - 100,000 + Somalis)  

That lets them cling to their old culture and language, instead of learning English and digesting our social values. Note the way we’ve mishandled Somalis, who, in turn, have disproportionately slipped off to jihad.

American Muslims are yet another of our nation’s success stories (though we need to confront the bad actors abusing our tolerance). We get genuine immigrants seeking their American dream. Europe gets fanatical colonizers.

Don’t think there’s a difference? Check out Brussels.


_Ralph Peters is a retired United States Army LCol (and former enlisted man), author, and media commentator. His last assignment was to the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence. He retired in 1998. Ralph Peters is Fox News’ strategic analyst. In addition to his non-fiction books, he has also published several novels under the pen name Owen Parry. _

Legendary novelist W.E.B. Griffin has singled Peters out as one of the “new breed” protecting our nation, who – in Griffin’s words – wrote the best analysis of our war on terror that Griffin has ever read.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

The underlying fact is that no matter how well we treat Muslim refugees, how much of a start in a new country we give them, how much we hold nice little celebrations to accept them into the fold, it's all for naught.

When Johnny Jihadi shows up to blow up the shopping mall, he's not going to care about how nice you were to his brethren, how much you care or how inclusive you are.

You're an infidel and you need to be dealt with. Violently and fatally.


----------



## jollyjacktar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> As John Powell suggests, we need to invite them to join us for drinks at the Dorchester.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/-sp-how-to-talk-to-terrorists-isis-al-qaida
> 
> Of course, we'll also need politicians with the guts to follow this example. Good luck with that.



Very thought provoking, seeing as we cannot turn Raqqa into a modern day Carthage.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Kilo_302] I find it hard to believe policymakers haven't learned that * military force just draws more recruits. * We've been at this for 15 years. Maybe it's time for a new strategy.
[/quote]
When I read this I always think of the silly saying that Canadian soldiers are peacekeepers,  not warriors. 
I'm not sure where this came from.  If you apply enough force you're going to reach a point where there's no more recruits.  The problem is we're approaching it with this heart to and minds idea that we can throw enough money at them to make them our friends. In Afghanistan we watched the bad guys work for us during the day and plant bombs by night.


----------



## Good2Golf

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Suggestions?



Buying hybrid cars, stop smoking and start reading newspapers?


...although in fairness, Matt Damon has travelled to Mars and back since then...


----------



## Edward Campbell

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Gwynne Dyer gets one thing right in my _uninformed_ opinion:
> 
> "The first thing, after every terrorist attack, is to stress that media coverage of the attack is its primary purpose, indeed, almost its only purpose."
> 
> 
> First, I stress that my _opinion_ is _*uninformed*_. I know little about terrorism, except that it is a tactic, not a belief system or a nationality; and I know even less, therefore, about counter-terrorism, except that it doesn't seem to be working very well; but I do know, personally, some people who do study terrorism and think about it a lot and, generally, I defer to their opinions.
> 
> But, second, it does _seem_ rather intuitively obvious to me that since one of the main aims of terror attacks is to frighten people, then "communicating" the attack is, indeed, one of the most important outcomes. If there are no frantic media reports about the attacks in Brussels then the people in Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent and Liège will not be frightened, will they?




More about "communicating" the terror in this good article from _The Guardian_ that asks the very pertinent questions: "How can one show the suffering of this terror group’s victims without furthering its perverse agenda?" and "How can one refuse to show the suffering of this terror group’s victims without succumbing to the awful idea that they are people that it’s best not to acknowledge too freely?"


----------



## MARS

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> More about "communicating" the terror in this good article from _The Guardian_ that asks the very pertinent questions: "How can one show the suffering of this terror group’s victims without furthering its perverse agenda?" and "How can one refuse to show the suffering of this terror group’s victims without succumbing to the awful idea that they are people that it’s best not to acknowledge too freely?"



I don't know...I question the...necessity (I guess that would be the word) for the Guardian (or any other media outlet) to show these kinds images, other than because "if it bleeds, it leads".  What is the public good that is accomplished?  Are ISIL-inspired terrorist events something the general public is unaware of?  Is it something, at it's base level, that we don't understand without images?  I am certain they sold a lot of papers and received a lot of online viewers, though.

But this isn't the same thing as, say, the Ethiopian famine in the 1980s, which most of us likely remember well.  That was something happening in a far flung, 3rd world country that I would argue the majority of the world would have remained unaware of and unconcerned with, if not for the months-long bombardment of disturbing images into our homes everyday.  It actually did accomplish a public good: those images generated an aid response.  (You can argue about the long-term effectiveness of that response, but that is not my point).

Are the people of Brussels safer because of these images?  Better informed?  Is there anything for the average citizen to even do to assist the authorities based on images of the victims and the carnage?

I don't think so.  I think they are simply salacious.  They appeal to our innate desire to view horror through our own eyes.  They are like trainwrecks - you can't look away.  But you don't need to actually see the suffering to appreciate it, I don't think, especially when there is no "So what" or "Now what" for the viewers.


----------



## AbdullahD

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> http://nypost.com/2016/03/23/what-europe-needs-to-do-to-stop-the-next-brussels/
> *
> What Europe needs to do to stop the next Brussels*
> 
> By Ralph Peters March 23, 2016
> 
> What used to be bitter slums are now militant colonies.
> 
> The Muslim guts of European cities, from Brussels to Marseilles, and the high-rise banlieues of Paris (designed by the left as earthly paradises) or the grubby Stadtteile of Cologne or Hamburg, are no longer way-stations for readjusting immigrants. They’re imperial holdings of a bloodthirsty caliphate, poisoned with the spirit of jihad.
> 
> And the Islamist fanatics who rule from the shadows intend to slaughter the trusting aborigines, whose tribal chiefs are enchanted by the trinkets of political correctness — as we were reminded, again, Tuesday when terrorists killed 31 and injured hundreds in a double-barrel attack in Brussels.
> 
> Will Islam really conquer Europe? Of course not. But reality leaves Islamist terrorists unconvinced and unmoved.
> 
> And they’ve already disrupted societies, upended politics and seized strategic ground at Europe’s heart: The Brussels attacks were symbolically perfect, striking not only a national capital, but the headquarters of the European Union and NATO.
> 
> Consider Belgium. The police and intelligence organizations (mindlessly divided between Flemish- and French-speakers) couldn’t crack the local Muslim community. Contributing scores of jihadis to ISIS in Syria and Iraq, Molenbeek and neighboring slums also protected the terrorists in their midst.
> 
> Some locals must have known. Many more must have suspected. But none warned the authorities that hundreds of their “fellow Belgians” faced impending attacks.
> 
> The roots of radicalism had gone so deep that support for the fanatics trumped even the desire for self-protection. Of course, the locals saw that, in the wake of multiple terror attacks and arrests, they’d face suspicion, scrutiny and an end to the craven tolerance of their crimes.
> 
> But nobody talked. Nobody will.
> 
> Nonetheless, “humanitarian” groups will continue to defend the “rights” to government financial, medical and housing support for those who send their sons on jihad and beat their daughters to death.
> 
> Which brings us to the question: What can Europeans do? If they somehow summon the strength of will? Before the situation worsens monstrously?
> 
> Apart from the obvious measure of restricting migration that seeks only to feed at the public trough, there are three steps Europeans could (but likely won’t) take:
> 
> First, work on the families. In the Islamic cultures of the Middle East and North Africa, the family is the fortress. European states need laws that permanently deny all further state assistance, including subsidized housing, to the extended families of terrorists and their abettors.
> 
> Collective punishment? Islamist terror is a collective crime. As the residents of Molenbeek just reminded us. You have to do what works. And we need to remember the elementary truth that receiving countries owe immigrants nothing beyond their physical safety. We’re not in their debt, they’re in ours.
> 
> Second, not only resident status, but citizenship must be revoked from anyone affiliated with terror — including birthright citizenship. We must stop letting left-wing activists creatively interpret international law to protect monsters bent on massacre. (Liberal Canada) The first human right is for law-abiding citizens to be able to live in peace, free of bodily harm.
> 
> Third — and toughest — the Europeans need to find ways to break up the Islamist colonies that even the police prefer to avoid. Just as European colonialists brought smallpox to the natives of the Americas, the jihadi colonists bring their plague of fanaticism.
> 
> Even in our own country, where a different class of Muslim immigrant — largely educated, ambitious and law-abiding — means we don’t face the crisis Europe does, the toughest problems we do face come when Muslims from underdeveloped states are allowed to immigrate in mass and concentrate in one area. (Minnesota - 100,000 + Somalis)
> 
> That lets them cling to their old culture and language, instead of learning English and digesting our social values. Note the way we’ve mishandled Somalis, who, in turn, have disproportionately slipped off to jihad.
> 
> American Muslims are yet another of our nation’s success stories (though we need to confront the bad actors abusing our tolerance). We get genuine immigrants seeking their American dream. Europe gets fanatical colonizers.
> 
> Don’t think there’s a difference? Check out Brussels.
> 
> _Ralph Peters is a retired United States Army LCol (and former enlisted man), author, and media commentator. His last assignment was to the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence. He retired in 1998. Ralph Peters is Fox News’ strategic analyst. In addition to his non-fiction books, he has also published several novels under the pen name Owen Parry. _
> 
> Legendary novelist W.E.B. Griffin has singled Peters out as one of the “new breed” protecting our nation, who – in Griffin’s words – wrote the best analysis of our war on terror that Griffin has ever read.



Hi RifleMan62

That was an interesting read, I disagree with some points he makes and I'll do my best to explain why. Having said that I am not stuck like glue to my position, it's just that my gut says it is the wrong way to approach.

Firstly he brings up blood thirsty extremists and the radical agenda they hold (which I agree the extremist fools, want us all Dead). Outlining some acts they have committed which makes sense to explain the severity of the situation.

I start  to draw traction with him, when he starts make all Muslims culpable for the actions of a few extremists. Allegeding that other Muslims knew, without proof is an issue. If it comes out in the investigation that other Muslims had legitimate information about these attacks, then hold them accountable. But until and unless proof comes that other's did know let it lie. By assuming other Muslims knew and creating pieces like this your are feeding the 'woe is me' attitude extremists use to recruit (I know, they should just grow up and be adults.. but thats another topic).

I am sure just like in Canada there are Islamic groups, Imams and Mosques that are working against radicalism. But sometimes if these groups work with the police force, it undermines the effort.. because radicals will just assume it is state funded and thus evil. But that does not negate the fact interaction between the Police and the community needs to happen. So yes Muslims are a tight group of chaps usually, I know I can call on my Muslim brother 24/7 for help. Mayhap we have created our own Island that we need bridges to get off of and like all Islands in the world resources are usually rare. So we need to work with the broader communities and utilize our anti Radicalization in synch to some extent with state funded efforts.. Or create a state funded paralell.

I take extreme prejudice with the use of collective punishment. I believe with full conviction that a program utilizing collective punishment will exponentially increase the amount of radicals. I am not a very articulate debater, but this chap I am linking has an interesting read and take on the issue. I feel that it would be more effective then what he is suggesting (albeit he uses it in a school context).

http://www.learningspy.co.uk/behaviour/collective-punishment/

His second point of removing citizenship, is kind of a moot point but symbolic nonetheless. A terrorist is usually a murderer and Murderers tend to spend life in jail. So a national spending life in jail or someone who isnt is kind of pointless. But symbolically, it could be interesting. wiser people then I can debate the merits of it.

His third point I agree with mostly, we do need to make sure all immigrants integrate successfully into our countries. I do not believe they need to assimilate, but they need to integrate and make the country home. Having huge slums of low income immigrant communities create problems, but is it disproportionately more then any other low income slum? That is something to look into (i should have sorry). 

I believe that social programs can be extremely effective here, teaching people the skills needed to be economically mobile etc. I spent time in Minneapolis and worked with a few Somalis there and have huge hopes and fears for the next generation. But we still have time to interject ourselves into these communities to help them.

Let the immigrants keep their culture in so far as what is permissible in the respective countries they move to. But let them take what is best from the country they move to, an immigrant doesnt need to abandon who they are.. they just need to grow. Also restrictions on immigration could actually be wise, if the countru can not handle the immigrants. If the country can handle the immigrants and integrate them then let them come.

I am sure I am missing something, but I am at work I have to go.

Abdullah


----------



## tomahawk6

Belgian intelligence failure to head off the Brussels bombing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/belgian-authorities-missed-a-key-chance-to-gather-intelligence-on-attacks/2016/03/26/97f5d492-f1f0-11e5-a2a3-d4e9697917d1_story.html

BRUSSELS — Belgian authorities announced Saturday that they had charged a man in connection with Tuesday's terrorist attacks, saying they believe he participated in the plot and may be "the man in white" captured in an airport surveillance video alongside the two bombers. 

The man, identified by a European official as Fayçal Cheffou, appeared before a judge after he was detained Thursday night while sitting in a car in front of the Belgian prosecutor’s office.

Belgian security officials have been seeking a man captured in an airport surveillance video Tuesday, minutes before dual suicide blasts hit. The images show three men walking together, but only two are believed to have died in the blasts. The third, wearing a white jacket and a black hat -- was thought to be at-large after depositing an explosives-laden suitcase in the departures terminal. The two bombers wore black, along with black gloves on their left hands that authorities believe concealed the detonators.

A spokesman for the federal prosecutor's office, Eric Van der Sypt, said on Saturday that the man identified by his office only as Fayçal C. was being investigated as the possible third airport attacker. But he said the link "cannot be confirmed yet."

"We have to be 100 percent sure," he said. "These are very heavy charges."


----------



## tomahawk6

Really good article about the terror cells in Belgium and how they seem to be operating.One takeaway for me was the mention of watchers being used in these operations.The fact the cells are making their own explosives and as a result need to have hideouts that can mask the smell.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lives-dies-attacks-clues-terror-171007086.html?nf=1


----------



## Kilo_302

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> :blah:   Have you ever done anything to try to find/kill any of these people?  Or are you just complaining from behind the wall of protection provided by others with no intent to even 'suggest the new strategy', let alone be a part of it.
> 
> Tell the families of the loved one killed in the past, oh, decade and a half, that terrorism is 'nothing to worry about'.  We can contain/kill them in their own back yard, or they will come to ours.  Their long term goal is to convert or kill your grandkids, what is happening today is to set up the victory of the future.  Stop being shortsighted with your head in the sand.  There is a threat to the western world.  It is real.  It just isn't knocking directly on your door...yet.



It's quite clear that containing them/killing them in their own backyard is simply not working, this is my point. We are creating more militants with every drone strike/air raid than we are killing. If this wasn't the case, we would have run out of terrorists a long time ago. I find it hard to not chuckle when the media announces that we killed some commander in a drone strike. We've been killing the first or second in command of Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Al-Nusri, ISIS, Sadr Army etc etc for 15 years now. And somehow we don't seem to understand they're able to replace them. 

Imagine for a moment that a close family member or friend is killed in a drone strike. Or perhaps even a few family members or friends. And imagine they had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and maybe one or two were just responding to an attack and then were killed in a "double tap" (which is itself a war crime).  Do you think this might cause some otherwise rational people to hate the West? Of course it would. Terrorism should never be dealt with with military means. It's wholly counterproductive, and adding drones to the mix just makes us look like cowards and further incenses people.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Kilo- can you explain what you mean by a "double tap" being a war crime?


----------



## Journeyman

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Terrorism should never be dealt with with military means.



Which brings us back to...





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Suggestions?


The easy part is saying everyone is wrong; you still have not provided your solution.


----------



## Kilo_302

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Kilo- can you explain what you mean by a "double tap" being a war crime?



Intentionally hitting first responders is a war crime. The CIA has, on numerous occasions, hit a target and then waited a few minutes and then hit it again while people are digging victims out of the rubble. There is more than enough doubt to accept that this strategy is criminal, especially if we take into account all the times mistakes have been made with the initial target itself.



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Which brings us back to...The easy part is saying everyone is wrong; you still have not provided your solution.



The central tenet of terrorism as a strategy is to use your opponent's weight against them, to provoke an overreaction that then alienates people from your intended target, creating political mass necessary to achieve whatever goals you have. 

The goal of the 9/11 attacks was to provoke an overreaction. When the US went into Afghanistan and Iraq it was committing itself to campaigns it couldn't win, but also campaigns that would destabilize both countries and the region, and draw in more militants. Furthermore, each cycle of violence results in even worse forms of extremism. ISIS will be far harder to talk than Al-Qaeda, but it still possible. 

SO I would suggest we try ratcheting down the violence and attempt to talk. It will be distasteful, and some crimes will go unpunished (on both sides), but in the end it's the only solution. I understand you're asking for suggestions, *but shouldn't there more onus on those who support military action when 15 years of military action has NOT worked?*


----------



## GR66

I think it's naive to believe that terrorism against the West is simply a reaction to Western military intervention in the Islamic Crescent.  What is going on there is a cultural civil war.  Far more of the effort of the extremists is against their own people in their own countries than against the West.  We are simply a symbol of the modern liberalism that they oppose. 

Even if we were to pull out all of our military forces their war would continue.  We would still be a target for them.  Even if we were to create a courdon around the entire area and break off all ties and trade with those countries we would remain a target.  Access to modern media cannot be blocked and we would always be seen as a threat and an evil influence on the minds of the people they seek to control.  Disengagement could be spun as abandonment and collective punishment by the witholding of our wealth while engagement could be spun as interference and economic control.  Regardless of what we do in the present/future, our past actions (from the Crusades onward) would be put forward as justification for continuation of their war.

I don't think there are any simple answers to this mess and if I did have "the" solution I'd be a wealthy man.  That being said, I think that a general strategy of containing the conflict as much as possible and trying to prevent it from raging out of control is likely the best option among a group of poor choices.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Kilo- which times, specifically have the CIA hit a target and then hit it again a few minutes later when the first responders are on scene?

I would like to learn more about this.


----------



## Jed

GR66 said:
			
		

> I think it's naive to believe that terrorism against the West is simply a reaction to Western military intervention in the Islamic Crescent.  What is going on there is a cultural civil war.  Far more of the effort of the extremists is against their own people in their own countries than against the West.  We are simply a symbol of the modern liberalism that they oppose.
> 
> Even if we were to pull out all of our military forces their war would continue.  We would still be a target for them.  Even if we were to create a courdon around the entire area and break off all ties and trade with those countries we would remain a target.  Access to modern media cannot be blocked and we would always be seen as a threat and an evil influence on the minds of the people they seek to control.  Disengagement could be spun as abandonment and collective punishment by the witholding of our wealth while engagement could be spun as interference and economic control.  Regardless of what we do in the present/future, our past actions (from the Crusades onward) would be put forward as justification for continuation of their war.
> 
> I don't think there are any simple answers to this mess and if I did have "the" solution I'd be a wealthy man.  That being said, I think that a general strategy of containing the conflict as much as possible and trying to prevent it from raging out of control is likely the best option among a group of poor choices.



I think this approach is simply a failing delay tactic. Like watching a slow growing cancer take hold. It is well past time to go in and take these ISIS guys down hard, and be relentless in rooting them out.  Will good Muslims be affected? Yes, very unfortunately. Time to get off the fence and really do something.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Intentionally hitting first responders is a war crime.


Do you mean medical staff specifically or first responders as in citizens first on the scene to help out?



			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Kilo- which times, specifically have the CIA hit a target and then hit it again a few minutes later when the first responders are on scene?
> 
> I would like to learn more about this.



I as well.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I think  you have to be very careful here with vocabulary, Kilo_302.

What you described is not "double tap". Double Tap is an infantry technique which is meant for forcible entry into a building known to house enemies. It requires the soldier to always shoot two bullets, minimum, into any enemy to ensure neutralization. It is not a war crime in any way.

What you described, which is hitting a target (here we are talking of a building or location, even if the actual purpose of the mission is the execution of a single specific individual) multiple times to ensure that the target is destroyed is NOT a war crime, so long as the mission is legitimate and you act to minimize co-lateral damage. 

In such scenario, if the purpose of the first strike was to attract to the location first responders who are either civilians or medical personnel under the Geneva conventions so that they can be taken out on a second strike, that would be a war crime. I dare you to find me a single instance where a Western Power has used such tactics, even going back to before WWI. On the other hand, such tactics is almost par for the course for terrorists, especially suicide bombers, which is why our "first responders" in a terrorist attack are usually the police and the Army, with a mission of evacuating the area in case a second bomb is co-located, and ensuring the safety of the area before letting first aiders into the area.


----------



## Journeyman

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> I understand you're asking for suggestions, but shouldn't there more onus on those who support military action when 15 years of military action has NOT worked?


Not necessarily.  I've found it beneficial for all concerned that when someone comes to me saying "X is wrong," to ask for potential solutions.  That may get them thinking about the various constraints, restraints, and knock-on effects that has us doing X in the first place.  It helps them self-develop -- to think through problems on a more than superficial level of simply disagreeing with something.


----------



## Kilo_302

GR66 said:
			
		

> I think it's naive to believe that terrorism against the West is simply a reaction to Western military intervention in the Islamic Crescent.  What is going on there is a cultural civil war.  Far more of the effort of the extremists is against their own people in their own countries than against the West.  We are simply a symbol of the modern liberalism that they oppose.




I don't believe most rational people given a choice are against liberalism or democracy. Remember that we have always chosen to support autocratic and authoritarian regimes in the region over secular nationalism. "We" have also chosen at times to support theocratic regimes and militant Islamic groups over secular nationalism. We can't have it every way.

If we're selling weapons to the Saudis, who then use them against popular uprisings (that include calls for democracy and indeed the "liberalism" of which you speak) it begs the question: which side in this war are we on? Or maybe more accurately, "how many sides?"

Radical Islam has largely been a reaction to secular dictatorships that we have supported, NOT secular democracy (which we have never supported in the Islamic world). There are certainly people out there who hate our liberalism, but they would have a hard time attracting followers in a liberal democracy. 

It's disappointing that 15 years in we still don't understand this. Bin Laden laid out his complaints in his 2002 "Letter to America." Does it make the attacks on 9/11 legitimate? Or course not. Are his complaints legitimate? Well they are certainly accurate. 

The Iraq sanctions that killed 500,000 children, the unflinching support for Israel, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia. These are the grievances he cited as reason for the initial attacks. If we are serious about preventing further attacks, it follows that killing over a million more Iraqis, occupying that country, continuing to support Israel despite international law, and added to that drone attacks in several undeclared wars, these things might not be the deterrence we believe they are.



			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Kilo- which times, specifically have the CIA hit a target and then hit it again a few minutes later when the first responders are on scene?
> 
> I would like to learn more about this.



https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/06/04/cia-revives-attacks-on-rescuers-in-pakistan/

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-drone-tweets-reveal-double-tap-plan-2012-12


			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I think  you have to be very careful here with vocabulary, Kilo_302.
> 
> What you described is not "double tap". Double Tap is an infantry technique which is meant for forcible entry into a building known to house enemies. It requires the soldier to always shoot two bullets, minimum, into any enemy to ensure neutralization. It is not a war crime in any way.
> 
> What you described, which is hitting a target (here we are talking of a building or location, even if the actual purpose of the mission is the execution of a single specific individual) multiple times to ensure that the target is destroyed is NOT a war crime, so long as the mission is legitimate and you act to minimize co-lateral damage.
> 
> In such scenario, if the purpose of the first strike was to attract to the location first responders who are either civilians or medical personnel under the Geneva conventions so that they can be taken out on a second strike, that would be a war crime. I dare you to find me a single instance where a Western Power has used such tactics, even going back to before WWI. On the other hand, such tactics is almost par for the course for terrorists, especially suicide bombers, which is why our "first responders" in a terrorist attack are usually the police and the Army, with a mission of evacuating the area in case a second bomb is co-located, and ensuring the safety of the area before letting first aiders into the area.



I understand what the original meaning of "double tap" is. However it has become common nomenclature to describe terrorist attacks against first responders. This term has now been expanded to include US strikes. Ironically, it was the US who first applied the term "double tap" as a common terrorist tactic.


----------



## YZT580

Kilo, you have yet to respond to any request for verification.  Please provide an example of the U.S.  deliberately targeting first res-ponders.


----------



## Kilo_302

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Kilo, you have yet to respond to any request for verification.  Please provide an example of the U.S.  deliberately targeting first res-ponders.



Did you read anything at the links I posted?

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/02/04/obama-terror-drones-cia-tactics-in-pakistan-include-targeting-rescuers-and-funerals/


Here's a link that mentions an attack on a funeral for militants killed in a previous attack. Can the US also assume that everyone attending is a militant?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/03/american-drones-kill-12-pakistan?newsfeed=true

Here's a collection of tweets of mainstream media articles that specifically mention rescuers being killed after an initial strike. The Twitter account is still active, so you can track the "progress" being made. All the drone attacks reported by media in one convenient place.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-drone-tweets-reveal-double-tap-plan-2012-12


----------



## GR66

Jed said:
			
		

> I think this approach is simply a failing delay tactic. Like watching a slow growing cancer take hold. It is well past time to go in and take these ISIS guys down hard, and be relentless in rooting them out.  Will good Muslims be affected? Yes, very unfortunately. Time to get off the fence and really do something.



I might be tempted to agree with you if this were a case where the radicals could be very clearly differentiated from the "others" allowing us to take them out.  I don't believe that is the case though.  While the very vast majority of Muslims do not in any way agree with the most extreme actions of the radicals the "others" are very far from a homogeneous group.

There is such a wide variety of competing and overlapping national, ethnic, regional, linguistic, religious, and political interests in the region that it really is virtually impossible to choose a "side".  Supporting one "ally" may anger a competing "ally" while one "enemy" might be "allies" with one or more of your "allies".  

It may be very messy but I don't see inserting ourselves even deeper into this mess being any better a solution than waiting until they sort it out themselves.  That doesn't mean that we can't take action where needed and useful, but I don't think it should be the primary focus.  My opinion anyway.


----------



## Kilo_302

This is perhaps the most authoritative report on drone strikes. A bit of a read, but important if we want to understand why we can't win this way.

http://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/default/files/publication/313671/doc/slspublic/Stanford_NYU_LIVING_UNDER_DRONES.pdf


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Actually K302, I just read very carefully all your links.

It describes exactly what I was talking about: Multiple hits on a legitimate target to ensure its destruction. Not a specific intent at attracting then killing civilian/medical first responders. If such first responders are there when a second strike on an otherwise legitimate target occurs, that is collateral damage, which ought to be minimized if possible, , but it is not a war crime, notwithstanding the UN special rapporteur, whose biased view to start with is that ANY civilian or co-lateral casualty is a war crime. Unfortunately for him, the UN special rapporteurs like him are the only people in the world that count these as automatic war crimes. The international courts don't.

Look at the very first article you cite: A group of Taliban in Pakistan is finishing prayers just before crossing into Afghanistan to fight. They are bombed. By their own description, while the surviving Taliban are attempting to help the injured the second strike occurs. Did civilian also attend to the injured? Yes. Was the gathering still a legitimate target? Yes. The surviving Taliban were still there. Did the CIA tactic aim at attracting and killing civilians or medical personnel? No. 

Same, BTW for funerals. There is no rule of war whatsoever that describes a funeral as protected gathering. And what does a senior Taliban commander's funeral attracts more than a whole group of Taliban fighters in the same location? Sorry, legitimate target again, even if unfortunate for civilians also in attendance (but I can't believe there would be many of those, other than most immediate family of the deceased.)


----------



## Kilo_302

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Actually K302, I just read very carefully all your links.
> 
> It describes exactly what I was talking about: Multiple hits on a legitimate target to ensure its destruction. Not a specific intent at attracting then killing civilian/medical first responders. If such first responders are there when a second strike on an otherwise legitimate target occurs, that is collateral damage, which ought to be minimized if possible, , but it is not a war crime, notwithstanding the UN special rapporteur, whose biased view to start with is that ANY civilian or co-lateral casualty is a war crime. Unfortunately for him, the UN special rapporteurs like him are the only people in the world that count these as automatic war crimes. The international courts don't.
> 
> Look at the very first article you cite: A group of Taliban in Pakistan is finishing prayers just before crossing into Afghanistan to fight. They are bombed. By their own description, while the surviving Taliban are attempting to help the injured the second strike occurs. Did civilian also attend to the injured? Yes. Was the gathering still a legitimate target? Yes. The surviving Taliban were still there. Did the CIA tactic aim at attracting and killing civilians or medical personnel? No.
> 
> Same, BTW for funerals. There is no rule of war whatsoever that describes a funeral as protected gathering. And what does a senior Taliban commander's funeral attracts more than a whole group of Taliban fighters in the same location? Sorry, legitimate target again, even if unfortunate for civilians also in attendance (but I can't believe there would be many of those, other than most immediate family of the deceased.)



But you're also relying on the military and CIA to for their version of intent. If you're not intending to kill first responders, why not use two missiles right off the bat? The grey area here is if the end result is repeated killing of first responders, then intent can be proven. Or at least, callous disregard for civilian lives, which is something we regularly attribute to terrorists.


----------



## GR66

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> I don't believe most rational people given a choice are against liberalism or democracy.
> ...



One thing that I've come to understand over the years is that while the collective "we" in the liberal West may intuitively understand the benefits of liberalism and democracy, it is NOT something that we can export to the rest of the world.  We cannot simply sweep away despotic and corrupt regimes and stand back and watch democracy take bloom.  It just doesn't happen like that.  It is not an instinct that is inherent to humanity and just happens naturally if you let it.

The West had to go through a lot of blood, death, pain, hatred and crisis to get to the point that as a culture we accept the general premises of a liberal democratic system to the point that even when challenged we stand by the system.  The 30 Years War, Revolutions, Civil Wars, World Wars.  Milliions of dead.  And still we face challenges to our democracies and have to push back against the powers of our own states.  

Without that history ingrained in their culture you cannot drop in our system and expect it to succeed.  We've seen that in many places.  I do believe that eventually other parts of the world, including the Middle East, will come up with their own system that works for them but like us it will likely have to be paid for in blood before it can take root.


----------



## Jed

GR66 said:
			
		

> One thing that I've come to understand over the years is that while the collective "we" in the liberal West may intuitively understand the benefits of liberalism and democracy, it is NOT something that we can export to the rest of the world.  We cannot simply sweep away despotic and corrupt regimes and stand back and watch democracy take bloom.  It just doesn't happen like that.  It is not an instinct that is inherent to humanity and just happens naturally if you let it.
> 
> The West had to go through a lot of blood, death, pain, hatred and crisis to get to the point that as a culture we accept the general premises of a liberal democratic system to the point that even when challenged we stand by the system.  The 30 Years War, Revolutions, Civil Wars, World Wars.  Milliions of dead.  And still we face challenges to our democracies and have to push back against the powers of our own states.
> 
> Without that history ingrained in their culture you cannot drop in our system and expect it to succeed.  We've seen that in many places.  I do believe that eventually other parts of the world, including the Middle East, will come up with their own system that works for them but like us it will likely have to be paid for in blood before it can take root.




All true words.  However, because of the the blood, death, pain ...  etc. that the West has expended for us to live in our wonderful democratic countries, we need to drastically step up our self preservation for the sake of all our peoples. 
It is far past time to deal with the extremist Muslim problem in a honest, direct and forceful manner. We can no longer allow a irritatingly useless politically correct approach to hinder a coordinated response to this major threat.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Good post GR66, +1

In fact, if history has taught us anything, it is that the stronger a religion's hold (any religion) on a given society, the more likely it is governed by a "god" appointed and "church" sanctioned leader who is as close to a despotic monarch as can be. Interestingly enough, the biggest exception seem to be Iran. A religion based society, but with a reasonably democratic system, all things considered.

It is only when the enlightenment succeeded at dissociating church and state (and in particular throwing off the burden of Catholicism) in Europe that democracy was re-discovered in the ruins of Greek philosophy and started to flourish.


----------



## a_majoor

I think AbdullahD is on to something. While the use of military power, intelligence and other kinetic tools are always going to be needed, the counterpoint is to run "cultural" efforts to ensure that people are attracted to the values of Western liberal culture (liberal in the sense of individual rights and freedom, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law) and at the same time repelled by the radical vision being preached by the Jihadis.

We have one strong leg of the tripod, in that we can apply kinetic solutions pretty much wherever and whenever we like. The other two legs are very weak, however. *We* are quite good at selling the idea of the western consumer society to all and sundry, so much so that people from Tienanmen Square to Timbuktu carry smart phones, wear jeans and gather at a place modelled after Starbucks to socialize. OTOH, defense of human rights is weak to non existent (when Brownshirts can move in and shut down speakers with seeming impunity at Canadian and American Universities, while other groups are marginalized or even punished for expressing their opinions on the campus grounds, *we* are not sending a strong signal that individual rights and freedoms are respected here. And if *we* don't respect our own moral and philosophical foundations, why should *they*?). And the last leg of sending strong condemnation against terrorist atrocities is often blunted by "yes but" or weird arguments of moral equivalency between us and them.

We really need to show people by word and deed that the liberal foundations of the West are strong and worth adopting. We need to sensitize families against the message of radicalism by making it more desirable to have living sons and daughters rather than dead "martyrs" (and the stick of withdrawing all social welfare and assistence from the families of terrorists and enablers is probably a good tool to use as well).

And continue to weild the "Terrible Swift Sword" against any and all who raise their hands against us and out families and friends.


----------



## Jed

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I think AbdullahD is on to something. While the use of military power, intelligence and other kinetic tools are always going to be needed, the counterpoint is to run "cultural" efforts to ensure that people are attracted to the values of Western liberal culture (liberal in the sense of individual rights and freedom, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law) and at the same time repelled by the radical vision being preached by the Jihadis.
> 
> We have one strong leg of the tripod, in that we can apply kinetic solutions pretty much wherever and whenever we like. The other two legs are very weak, however. *We* are quite good at selling the idea of the western consumer society to all and sundry, so much so that people from Tienanmen Square to Timbuktu carry smart phones, wear jeans and gather at a place modelled after Starbucks to socialize. OTOH, defense of human rights is weak to non existent (when Brownshirts can move in and shut down speakers with seeming impunity at Canadian and American Universities, while other groups are marginalized or even punished for expressing their opinions on the campus grounds, *we* are not sending a strong signal that individual rights and freedoms are respected here. And if *we* don't respect our own moral and philosophical foundations, why should *they*?). And the last leg of sending strong condemnation against terrorist atrocities is often blunted by "yes but" or weird arguments of moral equivalency between us and them.
> 
> We really need to show people by word and deed that the liberal foundations of the West are strong and worth adopting. We need to sensitize families against the message of radicalism by making it more desirable to have living sons and daughters rather than dead "martyrs" (and the stick of withdrawing all social welfare and assistence from the families of terrorists and enablers is probably a good tool to use as well).
> 
> And continue to weild the "Terrible Swift Sword" against any and all who raise their hands against us and out families and friends.



We haven't seen the "Terrible Swift Sword" for a long time.  Maybe we are over due?


----------



## vonGarvin

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Good post GR66, +1
> 
> In fact, if history has taught us anything, it is that the stronger a religion's hold (any religion) on a given society, the more likely it is governed by a "god" appointed and "church" sanctioned leader who is as close to a despotic monarch as can be. Interestingly enough, the biggest exception seem to be Iran. A religion based society, but with a reasonably democratic system, all things considered.
> 
> It is only when the enlightenment succeeded at dissociating church and state (and in particular throwing off the burden of Catholicism) in Europe that democracy was re-discovered in the ruins of Greek philosophy and started to flourish.


Biting the hand that feeds you, are we?  That "burden" of Catholicism is what built this Western Society.  Everything, from universities, hospitals, universal human rights, laws of war, international laws, etc, are all thanks to that imperfect church guiding Europe.
INBEFOREMIDDLEAGES.
The ruins of Greek philosophy are known today only because of the monastic system which preserved these ancient texts in spite of Europe being over run by a previous group of savages.  The history of the church is littered with scientists, thinkers, etc, who all contributed to that which we call Civilization.  
The West has lost its soul, and will be supplanted by the invading species in a generation or two; birthrates alone confirm it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones




----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> But you're also relying on the military and CIA to for their version of intent. If you're not intending to kill first responders, why not use two missiles right off the bat? The grey area here is if the end result is repeated killing of first responders, then intent can be proven. Or at least, callous disregard for civilian lives, which is something we regularly attribute to terrorists.



Many points here.

First, I don't rely on anyone for intent. Intent arises from an analysis of the facts, all the facts, but an analysis made from the perspective of warfare, NOT of civilian ordinary criminal cases.

This is important. I do not see any of your military background in your profile, and do not know if you have any. But you talk of grey area. That is a civilian approach. As an operational commander, I cannot afford to deal with grey in a long philosophical discussion over coffee. I look at grey and call it either black or white. You make the call quickly and based on what is more important for the protection of your people and performance of the mission [a single ordinary Taliban in a crowd of ten civilians: White - don't shoot; a senior Taliban commander you have been trying to pin point for six months in the same crowd of ten civilians: Sorry, Black: Shoot!].

Second, you keep talking of "first responders". That is not a concept under the rules of war. Under LOAC, you are a combatant, a member of medical teams (specific identification is required) or a civilian. You need to prove that the very intent of a strike, no matter how often it happens, is specifically to kill the civilians or medical personnel for it to be a war crime. So long as there remains a legitimate target for a second strike, or third, of sufficient importance, the collateral damage does not amount to war crime and the frequency is irrelevant. 

Finally, I suggest it would be the employment of two missiles every time that would be against the rules. You shoot once, then you evaluate the damage and achievement of your aim. If the mission is complete with one, then that is the end of it.  Otherwise, and only then, do you carry out second strike.

P.S.: In my experience, true civilians don't tend to rush at the site of a bombing they know or suspect is related to ongoing warfare in order to help the combatants. The more likely scenario is that other combatants set aside what they are doing to assist their fellow fighters. And if they just set their weapons aside to help, they are neither civilians nor medical personnel under the convention, and remain legitimate targets themselves.


----------



## Kilo_302

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Many points here.
> 
> First, I don't rely on anyone for intent. Intent arises from an analysis of the facts, all the facts, but an analysis made from the perspective of warfare, NOT of civilian ordinary criminal cases.
> 
> This is important. I do not see any of your military background in your profile, and do not know if you have any. But you talk of grey area. That is a civilian approach. As an operational commander, I cannot afford to deal with grey in a long philosophical discussion over coffee. I look at grey and call it either black or white. You make the call quickly and based on what is more important for the protection of your people and performance of the mission [a single ordinary Taliban in a crowd of ten civilians: White - don't shoot; a senior Taliban commander you have been trying to pin point for six months in the same crowd of ten civilians: Sorry, Black: Shoot!].
> 
> Second, you keep talking of "first responders". That is not a concept under the rules of war. Under LOAC, you are a combatant, a member of medical teams (specific identification is required) or a civilian. You need to prove that the very intent of a strike, no matter how often it happens, is specifically to kill the civilians or medical personnel for it to be a war crime. So long as there remains a legitimate target for a second strike, or third, of sufficient importance, the collateral damage does not amount to war crime and the frequency is irrelevant.
> 
> Finally, I suggest it would be the employment of two missiles every time that would be against the rules. You shoot once, then you evaluate the damage and achievement of your aim. If the mission is complete with one, then that is the end of it.  Otherwise, and only then, do you carry out second strike.
> 
> P.S.: In my experience, true civilians don't tend to rush at the site of a bombing they know or suspect is related to ongoing warfare in order to help the combatants. The more likely scenario is that other combatants set aside what they are doing to assist their fellow fighters. And if they just set their weapons aside to help, they are neither civilians nor medical personnel under the convention, and remain legitimate targets themselves.



 I understand that a military commander must treat "grey" like black or white, however this just underlines my point that a military approach has doomed us to cycle of violence that we cannot end. If we do not treat militants/terrorists whatever you want to call them as enemy soldiers, then applying military force as it exists under international law in a traditional conflict seems problematic to say the least. Now I'm not suggesting we treat them as uniformed soldiers, but you can see the problem with defining the target one way, and operating as though they are something else.

While we may not be committing war crimes under international law with "double tap" strikes (I for one believe intent is there, just not proven yet) there is a certain moral equivalency that raises questions about the overall war (s?). We can't win a conflict in which we are willing to sink to the same or similar depths of moral depravity as our enemy, and it must seem to our target audience (no pun intended) that we are.

 This is assuming of course, that defeating terrorism is dependent on depriving militant leaders of their source of recruits. We can do that kinetically, but I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting we get into attrition warfare with everyone who happens to live in these countries. The only alternative then is to break the cycle of violence by negotiating. There are ways to do this without losing political face.


----------



## Rifleman62

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1682338.ece?

*Tony Blair: We are in denial about Islam*

If we dismiss jihadists as a cult of crazies, we will never get to grips with the ideology responsible for terrorist attacks

Tony Blair Published: 27 March 2016

Attacks such as those in Brussels are intended to destabilise our political and social cohesion.

We are at war with Islamist extremism. We need a different rhythm of thought in respect of it; preparing for a conflict that is longer than anything we have seen in modern times.

The attacks in Belgium were shocking. Unfortunately the attacks are going to keep coming. If you have no compunction about killing wholly innocent civilians and are prepared to die in the act of doing so, societies like ours offer vast possibilities of vulnerability.

My foundation’s Centre on Religion and Geopolitics tracks extremism across the world daily. This threat is global. We require a fundamental change of strategy if we are to defeat it.

Otherwise, we will have periodic but increasingly frequent acts of terrorism that will result in many more victims and start to destabilise our political and social cohesion. Eventually the terrorists will commit an act of such size and horror that we will change our posture; but by then the battle will be much harder to win without measures that contradict our basic value system.

The threat is not simply the acts of violence; but the ideology of extremism that gives rise to them. Confront only the violence and fail to confront the ideology and we fail.

There has been a very deliberate decision to describe the challenge as “countering violent extremism”.

The risk is we leave the roots untouched. It is easier to look upon this problem as if the violence were cultish in nature, the provenance of tens of thousands of brainwashed crazies who person by person we have to arrest or “deradicalise”.

Regarding it instead as a much broader problem of ideology leads us into uncomfortable terrain because here, the challenge is not measured in thousands but in millions.

However, until we analyse correctly the nature of the threat, we have no hope of countering it successfully.

Islam as practised and understood by a majority of the world’s Muslims is an honourable and peaceful faith. It has contributed greatly to human development. This is absolutely necessary and right to say. We are talking here about a perversion of faith, not true faith.

But we need to end the denial about what is happening and has happened over a significant period of time within Islam.

Over the past half-century or more there has developed a narrative within Islam about the religion, its place in the world, its purposes and its proper relationship to politics and society, which has intensified its religiosity, changed the character of its interaction with those of different faiths, and is fundamentally incompatible with the modern world.

It is this “Islamism” which begets Islamist extremism which begets the acts of violence.

The reality is that the adherents of this view of Islam are numbered in many millions, have, in some countries, elements of official support, and are systematically teaching it to millions of young people across the world.

The factors that explain this are varied. These include the forming of the Muslim Brotherhood, the flight of many of its members from Egypt in the 1950s and their welcome in other Arab states where they found employment in their education systems; the Iranian revolution and the storming of Mecca in 1979; the export of Salafist-type doctrine (funded by oil wealth) to Africa and Asia, including Pakistan; and a genuine sense of injustice over the Palestinian issue that can then be exploited. In turn this ideology has come to parts of the Muslim community in Europe.

Add to this the immaturity of some political systems, and the population explosion that has seen countries double their size in the past 25 years so that in places 70% of the world’s Muslim population is under the age of 30 and you have the toxic mixture of bad politics, frustrated youth and close-minded views of religion.

The so-called Arab Spring came out of all this, where “liberals” and “Islamists” combined to topple tired and unrepresentative regimes, but then completely disagreed about what comes next.

What all this means, is we face not simply a fringe of fanatics but a much wider spectrum of Islamism that has at its furthest end Isis, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda. But even in its more moderate and non-violent form it has a way of thinking that is still inconsistent with the pluralist and open-minded view of the world that defines the only way it can work peacefully in the 21st century.

This ideology is not interested in coexistence. It does not seek dialogue but dominance. It cannot therefore be contained. It has to be defeated.

This requires not small incremental decisions designed to respond to the moment, but big all-encompassing decisions for a generation.

We must escape from the paralysing grip of the present political discourse stuck between a right wing that is now tipping into bigotry against Muslims as a whole and a left that thinks that calling it “Islamism” is stigmatic and prefers to believe that in any event we have caused all of this through western policy although the countries now affected cover the gamut of policy positions from the most interventionist to the expressly pacific. This discourse disables the alliance we need within Islam.

Here is the good news in all the gloom. Such an alliance is today available. Many Muslims are speaking out and as they do, others gain confidence and follow; because the majority of Muslims hate the way their faith has been hijacked. And never forget the majority of terrorist victims are Muslim

There are two parts to any new strategy — one immediate, the other longer term. I can only summarise here.

Immediately we need to improve the intelligence co-operation between the key agencies across Europe, and elsewhere, removing all obstacles of bureaucracy and, in some cases, normal legal process to do so. We’re fighting this battle at present with one arm tied behind our back.

Second, we need to recognise that the anxiety our citizens have about refugees is as much about security as it is about immigration per se. Unless we have a system of processing adequately those coming into our countries, then we have to keep them either in the region or in the countries where they are arriving but with provision that recognises the tragedy of their situation and treats them with humanity and compassion. Uncontrolled flows of people across Europe constitute an unacceptable security risk.

Third, we are making progress in the fight against Isis but it has to be eliminated with greater speed and vigour. This “caliphate” is itself a source of recruitment. We can use local allies in the fight, but they need equipment and where they need active, on-the-ground, military support from us, we should give it. The Americans are doing this now — at least to a degree and with effect. But to have allowed Isis to become the largest militia in Libya right on Europe’s doorstep is extraordinary. It has to be crushed.

The conflicts and genuine political grievances that have allowed these groups to flourish have to be addressed: notably in Syria, where we have permitted Assad to survive but who cannot be the future of a nation he has brutalised; in Iraq, where in 2010 the country voted for a non-sectarian government and when al-Qaeda had been beaten down only to re-emerge in the wake of sectarian leadership and the chaos in Syria, the Sunni minority have to have their rights guaranteed and enforced; and of course including Libya and Yemen.

We have to realise who are our allies and stand with them. This is not easy because in the complexity of Middle East politics our allies are doing things with which we may profoundly disagree. We can state those disagreements. We can urge and support reform. But the Arab nations of the region have to know we are with them in the fight against extremism. Saudi Arabia is our ally. Egypt is our ally.

Israel also is our ally. The Palestinian issue remains of huge importance and it should be our priority to find a way to the only solution that works — a viable Palestinian state next to a secure state of Israel. But Israel’s security is our security.

Longer term, we need the following:

First, we must build military capability able to confront and defeat the terrorists wherever they try to hold territory. This is not just about local forces. It is a challenge for the West. Ground forces are necessary to win this fight and ours are the most capable. But the pain of the casualties in such engagements weighs heavy. Western armed forces are mainly volunteers. We need an open and frank discussion with them about how to create the conditions to go and conduct these campaigns. There will have to be new methods of coalition building and co-operation between nations.

Second, education today is a security issue. My foundation is proposing a global commitment on education — a global agreement between nations, similar to that on the environment to combat climate change — where countries accept that it is part of their common responsibility to promote religious and cultural tolerance and root out prejudice from their education systems, formal and informal, and the curriculum taught in them. We need a system of evaluation and implementation of necessary reforms. But this has to become a no-holds-barred agenda item at the top table of global relationships.

Third, we need to boost the capacity of civic society to counter extremism. This involves many dimensions from the encouragement of correct interpretations of scripture to the proliferation of internet material that counters the extremist narrative to the building of inter-faith understanding. But it needs to be organised.

Fourth, aid and development policy should focus on institution and capacity building, making countries resilient and open to progress. Invest now in the poorest parts of the world where it is obvious that religion can be abused as a political tool and the future is more secure, theirs and ours.

Fifth, the role of women and the position of girls should have special recognition, as victims of this ideology, but hugely powerful in the fight against it.

So this strategy has to be comprehensive and geared to a struggle similar to that we faced in defeating revolutionary communism or fascism. It should lead to a new foreign policy synthesis that learns properly the lessons not just of the Bush presidency but of the Obama one too, the successes and mistakes of both. For Europe it should lead to levels of co-operation, military and civilian, that mean we are not utterly dependent on America for our security. For the UK and for a Cameron premiership, if liberated from Britain’s internal European debate, it could mean the leadership of this task in Europe where Britain’s strengths and the PM’s own instincts are uniquely suited to it.

The centre, left and right, has to rediscover its muscularity. We have to provide an answer; otherwise demagogues will ride the anger. We have been there before. It is a part of our history we should not repeat.


----------



## jollyjacktar

That's rich coming from Bliar.  He's responsible for bringing all and sundry to the UK just so they'd (hopefully) vote Labour in the elections.


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## Kilo_302

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That's rich coming from Bliar.  He's responsible for bringing all and sundry to the UK just so they'd (hopefully) vote Labour in the elections.



I was going to say it's rich for other reasons, namely the disaster that is Iraq. But let's just agree that it's rich!


----------



## AbdullahD

I just wanted to interject here on the wisdom of spreading western democracy. All political systems have strong points and weak points which makes them susceptible to corruption.

My position is that along with all the other recommendations that have been arising; Such as militarily neutralizing Daesh, help rehabilitate these destroyed countries etc... we export a version of the Islamic political system, complete with all checks and balances.

Now I'm open to debate on this, but I find most extremist, use religion as the excuse for recruitment and violence. So if we are exporting a version of Islamic political system that the 99% of Muslims will accept as suitable.. it may take the fire out of the fight potentially.

It may also stop the "white saviour" dilemna and slow down the bigotry against the west. If it was a war military might alone could win, it would be a different issue. But we have to wage war on a perverted ideology. I'll link an article on white saviour complex for those who are unaware.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/07/22/why-wont-white-savior-complex-go-away

Now before anyone labels me an extremist, the Sharia Law that I follow and believe can coexist peacefully with Western nations.. these idiot terrorists version, not so much. The Islam I follow protects my rights and your rights, it honors women etc (just in case this isnt clear)

Ill provide some links about Caliphate and how they should act. If needed ill expand my position later, but the gist should be apparent (google didnt give a proper write up, but again I think the gist is apparent. I am looking at Muhammad sws at the first four caliphs in particular)

History
http://www.britannica.com/place/Caliphate

How the First Four caliphs acted
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Umar%27s_era

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_social_changes_under_Islam

So basically my point is there is a defined structure for the Sharia, such as elections of Caliphate etc and there are defined legal rulings as well. But there is loads of evidences that Muhammad sws and the first four Caliphs expanded the rights of people. They took really tough people and tried to reform them, so now we need to dodge a lot of issues here so why not give Muslims a legal and political system most of us want (albeit we have different interpretations). Then if we can revive the sunnah of our early leaders we can slowly expand the rights of our people as our people become ready for it.

We could set it up in the most basic form, then allow Muslims to solidify it and expand it slowly over time. And yes I know there is 50 million problems with this... But as of right now.. what do we have to lose? They are already slaughtering our women and children and extorting the world. Lets face them head on man to man, lets out fight them and out smart them.

Abdullah


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## jollyjacktar

Abdulllah, are you asking for Sharia law in Muslim lands?  If so, I have no quibble with that.  

If you're asking for it here in the West, then we shall disagree.  We already have laws and in place, I don't and won't support a competing system to take root here.  While in Rome, as they say.  If I was to move to a Muslim country then I would expect to live in accordance and acceptance with the laws of that land.


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## Jed

AbdullaD. You had my interest there in your proposal up to the mention of Sharia Law.  Sharia Law should be an absolute non starter in western nations, at least those in North America, anyway.

As North American western world democracies go, I doubt our peoples would ever get collectively behind your proposal.

Societies will only function properly and somewhat fairly, if everyone lives by the the same simple, basic rules. The more man made amendments in play the more things go pear shaped.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]

Now before anyone labels me an extremist, the Sharia Law that I follow and believe can coexist peacefully with Western nations.. these idiot terrorists version, not so much. The Islam I follow protects my rights and your rights, it honors women etc (just in case this isnt clear)[/quote]

It sounds like your version of Sharia Law would be a kindlier gentler version. For example I'm sure you wouldn't want to cut the hand off a thief (Quran 5:38) right?

The problem is, when you start drastically changing Sharia Law to be a more kindlier 2016 version, is it really still Sharia Law? 

Here is a thief having their hand crushed for apparently stealing bread. You're going to have a hard sell trying to convince me something even remotely related to this can coexist with the west.









> We could set it up in the most basic form, then allow Muslims to solidify it and expand it slowly over time. And yes I know there is 50 million problems with this... But as of right now.. what do we have to lose?


The most basic form to me seems to be all about cutting body parts off or stoning people to death.  
Or where a woman is raped, reports it and is then killed for committing adultery.

No thanks.


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## The Bread Guy

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> The only alternative then is to break the cycle of violence by negotiating. There are ways to do this without losing political face.


OK, then - who speaks to who?

Looking at the U.K., or even Afghanistan, it's pretty clear who was fighting who.  If an unrecognized "state" is fighting all comers, who speaks for all comers?  Or, for that matter, for ISIS?  And given their decentralized "hey, we inspire them, but we don't control them" system, how can they guarantee that the violence tap'll be turned off if even some of their demands are met?



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... Here is a thief having their hand crushed for apparently stealing bread ...


There are examples out there of amputations carried out for theft.  That said, for the record, according to Snopes.com ...


> ... These pictures originated with the Iranian news site PeykeIran, who (along with persons who have witnessed similar scenes in other countries) confirmed that *what the photographs actually depict is performers hustling money from onlookers by staging a common street act*, one in which a subject seemingly allows himself to be run over by a heavy vehicle and then emerges unscathed. This a common act, variations of which are performed by many magicians and accomplished through a variety of means, with no lasting harm done. That the subject is a small boy who grimaces his way through the stunt is all part of the act, intended to elicit sympathy and extra cash from onlookers ...


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## tomahawk6

Muslims that come to Europe want their own religious laws,but not the laws of their host nation.But they will take Europe's very generous healthcare and unemployment checks.I think allowing immigration at the expense of a national identity is sheer folly.Anyone who has been to Europe in the last year and comapre it to 15 years ago will see how much different it is and its not for the better.


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## OldSolduer

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Muslims that come to Europe want their own religious laws,but not the laws of their host nation.But they will take Europe's very generous healthcare and unemployment checks.I think allowing immigration at the expense of a national identity is sheer folly.Anyone who has been to Europe in the last year and comapre it to 15 years ago will see how much different it is and its not for the better.



There can only be one law or set of laws for all. Once a nation starts giving specific groups to conduct their own trials, set their own rules etc....then that nation will fall.


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## CBH99

What I don't understand is...

-  You were allowed to practice your own laws, customs, ways of life, etc - in your home country.  Your home country sucks because of it.  

-  You move to a new country, because your home country sucks.  It sucks because of the oppressive, violent, medival bulls**t that is customary.

-  You demand that the safe, financially stable, free, peaceful country that you just moved to changes itself to be more like the old country you couldn't wait to leave.


I just don't get it... :facepalm:


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=milnews.ca]
There are examples out there of amputations carried out for theft.  That said, for the record..
[/quote]

Ah right you are, I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out and keeping me honest, I should have been more careful.

I agree, there's still lots of examples of it, I just found a bunch of videos on youtube.  Large crowds of onlookers cheering with their smartphones filming people getting their hands hacked and sawed off. Or stoned to death. Pretty gruesome stuff and I still say a cornerstone of Shaira Law.


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## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> There can only be one law or set of laws for all. Once a nation starts giving specific groups to conduct their own trials, set their own rules etc....then that nation will fall.



Canada has two sets of laws, right?


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## tomahawk6

UK inching toward a dual legal system.Shame shame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716844/Islamic-law-is-adopted-by-British-legal-chiefs.html


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## Loachman

On a more sane note:

http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2016/03/islamic-terrorism-is-over-if-you-want-it.html

Tuesday, March 22, 2016

Islamic Terrorism Is Over If You Want It

Posted by Daniel Greenfield 

The National Intelligence Council has predicted that Islamic Terrorism will end by 2030. Around the same time we'll all be eating food pills, driving flying cars and living entirely in an imaginary world.

By 2034, the last murder will have taken place and by 2042, a scientific cure will be found for crime. By 2051, even bad thoughts will have been eliminated, and by 2062, work as we know it will be abolished and everyone will mediate all day on the serious questions of life. "Why are we here? What is our purpose in life? How can there be a National Intelligence Council so devoid of intelligence?"

In the real world, by 2030, there will be thousands of emirates, many no more than small terrorist groups, but some of which control sizable territories. Some of these emirates will pledge allegiance to a single Caliphate like ISIS. Others will try to get big enough to turn into their own Caliphate.

There will be a hundred miniature Afghanistans fought by international peacekeeping forces composed of a combination of local forces and NATO troops try to push out the bands of Salafi holy warriors, and their pirate camps, brothels and drug labs. There will be drones over the skies of a hundred deserts fighting Toyota pickup trucks with bands of hooded men firing machine guns. There will be wire transfers from a dozen Islamic finance institutions wending their way from the great oil economies of the Persian Gulf and American soldiers, who have never seen a conventional war fought in their lifetime, heading in on another rescue mission into the territory of a Terror Emirate.

The United States of 2030 will fight some of these emirates, ignore others and try to claim that some of them are moderate. Clinton tried to work with the Taliban. Obama backed the Brotherhood. By 2030, the smart men and women who got us into this will conclude that the best way to fight some of these caliphates and emirates is to pay them protection money to fight the other caliphates and emirates. We're already doing that in Syria. Eventually we'll begin doing it everywhere.

In Benghazi, Hillary Clinton was paying protection money to an Al Qaeda ally for security. Today, Europe decided to pay protection money to the state sponsors of terror in Turkey. By 2030, we'll stop pretending that it's foreign aid and start calling it what it is. Or maybe we'll go on lying to ourselves.

Western countries are already paying their Jizya as foreign aid, trading cash for the promise of stability. The United States and its allies have paid out fortunes to Afghan and Iraqi militias during the past two wars. And that doesn't even begin to take into account the sheer amount of money spent on development in the Muslim world. It is likely that the United States has spent more on Jizya, the traditional protection money payment of the non-Muslim Dhimmi to the Islamic State, than every other nation had throughout all of history. And that's just the down payment on the big bill.

Back when the Marines first saw action against the Barbary pirates, most nations found it easier to pay than fight. Jefferson's "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute" set us apart. The Marines came into being because America decided to invest in defense instead of protection money. But defense today is so tangled with tribute that it's hard to tell the two apart.
There are countless such private deals that have been made already and there will be countless more made to allow Western countries, and their companies and NGOs to function in territory controlled by Islamist Emirates. And that territory will include international shipping lanes.

By 2030, most countries will have come to view Islamic terrorism as a strategic asset, the way that Saudi Arabia does. They will recognize that the only way to transform the strategic liability of Muslim terrorism into an asset is by funding it and aiming it at their enemies. Islamist militias, will gain valuable experience, training and weapons by serving as the barbarian armies of a decaying West that they will use to conquer the West, the way that the Goth ancestors of Westerners did. 

The America of 2030 will spend nearly as much trying to buy off the Muslim world as it will spend on trying to kill terrorists. We will continue financing the terrorism that we are trying to prevent while appeasing our killers. American soldiers will be stationed around the world in a hundred little undeclared wars, building generators for sullen villages before coming under fire from them.

The war will be endless. Both sides will hate it and will perpetuate it anyway.

Imagine the conflicts of the Cold War if instead of Moscow, there had been a thousand decentralized Communist dictatorships across the world with no central enemy to fight, and if the Viet Cong were coming out of Oakland. Imagine the Drug War if the drug lords were aspiring feudalists fighting for a world government that would turn us into their serfs. Imagine World War II if the Nazis were a religion that anyone could convert to and immediately become a member of the master race with the right to rob, rape and kill anyone from the inferior breeds.

But you don't have to wait for 2030 to see that world. It's already here.

By 2030, Europe will be a police state fighting terrorism by eliminating privacy, deploying soldiers in every city and criminalizing dissent. The EU police state will be able to access the contents of any mobile device at a click. Even speech that is still permitted today will lead to prison sentences at worst or at best, mandatory reeducation at special centers organized to combat extremism.

The bombs will still keep going off, but they will be a nuisance. Europeans will learn to adapt to the occasional suicide bombing the way that Israelis have. A bomb will go off, the survivors will be carted away, the broken glass will be swept up and the television will praise the refusal to give in to extremism and hatred, while prominently featuring the half-hearted condemnation of a local cleric.

The No-Go Zones will grow and slowly turn into emirates. The authorities will make deals with the local gangs, who will act as Islamist militias. There will be lashes and honor killings in the formal setting of Islamic law and no one will pay attention. Urban and suburban enclaves will eventually become indistinguishable from Gaza. By 2030 the first crude homemade rocket, made with plans offered on the internet, may rise into the Parisian sky aimed at the Eiffel Tower.

But there will be immediate half-hearted condemnations.

Like Europe, the United States will operate a paranoid surveillance state that its critics decry, even while both the state and its critics support the migration that makes it mandatory. There will be  terrorist attacks, some thwarted, some not, including possibly one big one, when an Islamic terror group finally gets its hands on chemical or nuclear weapons from one of the Islamic states.

The America of 2030 will sink half its intellectual capital into praising Islam while the other half will be spent trying to find more elegant ways to kill Muslim terrorists. Homo Americanus circa 2030 will be a veteran of two dozen wars in the Muslim world and of two thousand television programs, museum exhibits, books, movies and high school classes celebrating Islamic religion and culture.

Western leaders, like their ancient Roman counterparts, have come to admire the virtues of the savage more than the virtues of their own civilization. By 2030 it will be clearer than ever whether the outcome of their bloody halfhearted campaigns to civilize the savages with doses of democracy and civic institutions will have led to civilized savages or the savaging of civilization.

Is this world of 2030 inevitable? No, it's not. We don't have to live this way. We choose to.

In 1969, John Lennon and Yoko Ono put up billboards with the message, "War is Over! If you want it" to protest against the Vietnam War. Will terrorism end by 2030? It will if we want it to.

There are two sure ways to end a war; either by winning it or by losing it. The world's most famous cokehead and mental patient duo meant the latter when they offered their Viet Cong Christmas greeting, but winning wars is still an option. It just isn't the option that we've chosen.

The hearts and minds way of war will take us to the 2030 that I have described. And that 2030 will take us to a 2060 and a 2090 where the war is over because we lost.

If we want our civilization to end there, all we have to do is to keep on doing what we're doing.

We know how to win wars. We don't lack the tools or the skills. We lack the conviction. We aren't  trying to win the hearts and minds of the enemy because we know we're right. It's a strategy born of a lack of confidence. We don't believe in ourselves. We need the enemy to affirm our morality.

The United States does not lose wars except when it loses the conviction and unity of its purpose. To win, we have to believe that we have a nation, a culture and a people worth protecting. The enemy believes that. It believes that enough to destroy us. If we believed it, the war would already be over.

Islamic terrorism is over if you want it. We have the power and the skill to end it at any time. What we lack is the faith that we are worth fighting for.


----------



## AbdullahD

To clarify, I meant that this policy should be pursued within an already existing Muslim country. So instead of exporting western democracy, help export this. I did not in any way intend to mean Canada or western nations establish a dual or triple legal system with sharia as one of those systems.

Also the notion that the Islamic sharia is some brick wall, is an incorrect theological position.

For stealing alone I'll post a couple  links to explain it is not a cut and paste, open and closed issue. (this also illustrates why only qualified people should interpert the Quran)

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8336

https://m.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/2j7dkp/to_muslims_was_caliph_umar_alkhattab_wrong_to/

Also this thing about the ladies who get raped get put to death, I can bluntly say that is not Sharia. It seems pretty obvious, but some people believe anything is Sharia due to the Media.

There are also many A-Hadiths about this, but it will derail the thread to much going into it.

Another point I'd like to make is we are already allies with Muslim Countries that have... strict views of the sharia (many things I disagree with them on) and are not even Islamic countries as far as political make up goes... So how can this be any worse?

Maybe my wording using simpler was wrong, but what I mean is truer and backed by authentic proofs.. that stand up to scrutiny. Which to me is simpler because you are not mixing in cultural baggage.

My last note, whenever people think of Muslim countries.. they seem to think of only the ones that get into the news... Which is sad...

http://www.travelerthoughts.com/question/765-Which_Middle_EasternArabicMuslim_countries_are_safe_for_a_white_American_to_travel_through_alone/

http://matadornetwork.com/bnt/westerners-travel-muslim-countries/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world

Anywho I hope I have clarified my ponderings a little bit  didnt mean to make you guys think I wanted Canada to adopt Sharia law. Sorry about that, I will try to be clearer in the future.

Abdullah


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## Jed

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> To clarify, I meant that this policy should be pursued within an already existing Muslim country. So instead of exporting western democracy, help export this. I did not in any way intend to mean Canada or western nations establish a dual or triple legal system with sharia as one of those systems.
> 
> Also the notion that the Islamic sharia is some brick wall, is an incorrect theological position.
> 
> For stealing alone I'll post a couple  links to explain it is not a cut and paste, open and closed issue. (this also illustrates why only qualified people should interpert the Quran)
> 
> http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8336
> 
> https://m.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/2j7dkp/to_muslims_was_caliph_umar_alkhattab_wrong_to/
> 
> Also this thing about the ladies who get raped get put to death, I can bluntly say that is not Sharia. It seems pretty obvious, but some people believe anything is Sharia due to the Media.
> 
> There are also many A-Hadiths about this, but it will derail the thread to much going into it.
> 
> Another point I'd like to make is we are already allies with Muslim Countries that have... strict views of the sharia (many things I disagree with them on) and are not even Islamic countries as far as political make up goes... So how can this be any worse?
> 
> Maybe my wording using simpler was wrong, but what I mean is truer and backed by authentic proofs.. that stand up to scrutiny. Which to me is simpler because you are not mixing in cultural baggage.
> 
> My last note, whenever people think of Muslim countries.. they seem to think of only the ones that get into the news... Which is sad...
> 
> http://www.travelerthoughts.com/question/765-Which_Middle_EasternArabicMuslim_countries_are_safe_for_a_white_American_to_travel_through_alone/
> 
> http://matadornetwork.com/bnt/westerners-travel-muslim-countries/
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
> 
> Anywho I hope I have clarified my ponderings a little bit  didnt mean to make you guys think I wanted Canada to adopt Sharia law. Sorry about that, I will try to be clearer in the future.
> 
> Abdullah




"The medium is the message"  I don't like it anymore then you do.  People, for the most part, will watch the news and take it as gospel.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jed said:
			
		

> "The medium is the message"  I don't like it anymore then you do.  People, for the most part, will watch the news and take it as gospel.



Tis is, a fact of life. But the site seems pretty good on holding chaps to a high level of conduct and belief perse. i.e I cant be some ignorant arrogant troll 

My wife and I, wish to make our children of those who don't believe everything they see or read without evidence and/or researching it.... So I am maybe making that habit spill over here... I have a lot of flaws, I want my kids to have fewer 

Abdullah


----------



## a_majoor

AbdullahD, so if you are advocating "importing" a more moderate or "modernized" version of Islam into currently Islamic states (I want to be sure I am unserstanding you correctly here), how do *we* overcome the already present and entranched version of Islam already in that nation?

To use what is probably a poor example, imagine that I want to promote Sufi Islam in the Middle East becasue it is a quite moderate and non radical version of Islam. So how do you overcome the existing Shiite and Sunni cultures and get them to adopt Sufiism? For that matter, how would you be able to overcome the rather violent opposition of the more extreme leaders and followers (who are already at war with each other since they see Shiite or Sunni Islam as "apostate" and punishable by death?)

This is actually a serious question. The one example that most of us are familier with is when Europeans fought an extrememly violent and bloody series of wars between rival branches of Christianity, culminating in the 30 years war which devastated much of central Europe. There is already the beginnings of a similar conflict throughout the Middle East (look up the Pan Islamic Civil War thread), so unless the solution is to try to keep the fighting contained in the Middle East, then some very bold steps will ahve to be taken.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> AbdullahD, so if you are advocating "importing" a more moderate or "modernized" version of Islam into currently Islamic states (I want to be sure I am unserstanding you correctly here), how do *we* overcome the already present and entranched version of Islam already in that nation?
> 
> To use what is probably a poor example, imagine that I want to promote Sufi Islam in the Middle East becasue it is a quite moderate and non radical version of Islam. So how do you overcome the existing Shiite and Sunni cultures and get them to adopt Sufiism? For that matter, how would you be able to overcome the rather violent opposition of the more extreme leaders and followers (who are already at war with each other since they see Shiite or Sunni Islam as "apostate" and punishable by death?)
> 
> This is actually a serious question. The one example that most of us are familier with is when Europeans fought an extrememly violent and bloody series of wars between rival branches of Christianity, culminating in the 30 years war which devastated much of central Europe. There is already the beginnings of a similar conflict throughout the Middle East (look up the Pan Islamic Civil War thread), so unless the solution is to try to keep the fighting contained in the Middle East, then some very bold steps will ahve to be taken.



Aye, that is one of the many problems. I was just thinking it couldn't be any harder then exporting western democracy.

Ideally over hauling an already existing Islamic country to a more Sharia style model would be ideal. Yet, we also need to do it close enough to the trouble zone, in order to polarize the population into those who want a more correct version against the extremist version.

Using propaganda could work, consulting all the worlds Islamic Scholars, using them as representatives (like mp's) in the formation of a new state and then help in the recruitment for it. Maybe doing something similar to what they did for Israel.... There really is no quick, simple or easy answer for this. But I know many Muslims would be very intrigued in this, a proper functioning Islamic state that had a good foreign policy and support on the world stage.

Bringing up all the different flavours of Islam is a very valid question, I believe we would have to implement a middle road version that almost all Muslims could agree with or stomach at the very worst. Most Muslims are sunni and the extremist alleged they are sunnis as well... so establishing this for sunni Muslims may be ideal and then bolstering the Shia nations at the same time. So we have a nation for our shiite brothers and Sunni's as well. Also we would have to defeat the extremist militarily, but this would be the ideological side of the fight as well. god willing slowing down recruits or stopping them.

To be honest,  it may just be a mess... I just dont think it can be any worse.. thats all. I hope I've covered my position.

Abdullah

p.s I refuse to think myself moderate or modern, I like to think im following the true fundamentals and these extremists are just a perversion of our faith. Semantics, I know lol


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]

For stealing alone I'll post a couple  links to explain it is not a cut and paste, open and closed issue. (this also illustrates why only qualified people should interpert the Quran)

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/8336

https://m.reddit.com/r/DebateReligion/comments/2j7dkp/to_muslims_was_caliph_umar_alkhattab_wrong_to/

Also this thing about the ladies who get raped get put to death, I can bluntly say that is not Sharia. It seems pretty obvious, but some people believe anything is Sharia due to the Media.

[/quote]

"Only qualified people should interpert religion" is a recipe for disaster. It's a blank check for people to manipulate and abuse religion and it's benevolent members.

With regard to the treatment of women I did a quick search and found these.



> Quran 2:282 - a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court





> Quran 24:13 - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah."


 Which I'm lead to understand if a woman accuses a man of rape she must have *4* witnesses to prove she was raped. If she does not have any witnesses then she is lying and admitting to adultry


> Quran 2:223 - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."


 So a husband cannot rape his wife?

You can say bluntly it's not Shaira law but I have't seen a lot of evidence of that. Women are not treated as equals under Sharia Law. In my opinion they're barely treated as humans. Rape victims are commonly punished.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> "Only qualified people should interpert religion" is a recipe for disaster. It's a blank check for people to manipulate and abuse religion and it's benevolent members.
> 
> With regard to the treatment of women I did a quick search and found these.
> Which I'm lead to understand if a woman accuses a man of rape she must have *4* witnesses to prove she was raped. If she does not have any witnesses then she is lying and admitting to adultry So a husband cannot rape his wife?
> 
> You can say bluntly it's not Shaira law but I have't seen a lot of evidence of that. Women are not treated as equals under Sharia Law. In my opinion they're barely treated as humans. Rape victims are commonly punished.



That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. I do tend to find a lot of so called evidence, doesnt hold up.

It tends to come from people who take some Afghanistani Mulvi words as the truth and no one elses. If your desire is to confirm what you already think is right, is right then that is fine. I do believe I've already told people here quite bluntly that they cant just interpert Quran how they want, there is a system to it. Google will very easily supply no limit to proof you need to confirm your opinion, but then again it will also supply no limit of proof stating how christian men can sell their daughters as sex slaves, take multiple wives and beat them with a thumb thick stick. It also supplies proof proving africans are lesser humans.

Now it is your perogative to believe what you wish, but it is a fact Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam. But until and unless you start interpreting the Sharia how the vast number of Muslims know it should be interperted, dont expect your opinion to hold weight. Your views on the culture of certain countries may hold a lot of weight, but your view on Islamic sharia does not.

Abdullah


----------



## jollyjacktar

Abdullah, I have asked my wife about edicts and fatwas that are announced by this scholar or that council on subjects concerning how the faithful should conduct themselves.  I asked why it seems at most times the masses ignore these pronouncements.  She tried to explain that they can bang away from the pulpit all they like (so to speak), but their words only hold force if people want to hear and obey.  This makes me wonder at just hoe effective your suggestions on scholars trying to lead the horse to water.  Nothing says they'll be able to make the horse drink that water.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Abdullah, I have asked my wife about edicts and fatwas that are announced by this scholar or that council on subjects concerning how the faithful should conduct themselves.  I asked why it seems at most times the masses ignore these pronouncements.  She tried to explain that they can bang away from the pulpit all they like (so to speak), but their words only hold force if people want to hear and obey.  This makes me wonder at just hoe effective your suggestions on scholars trying to lead the horse to water.  Nothing says they'll be able to make the horse drink that water.



Yep, that is another issue. See Mufti Ibn Adam does a lot of womens rights issues, same with a lot of lesser known scholars. But people like there cultural Islam because it makes their life more beneficial to them, If people knew the true tafsir of these ayahs that Jarnhammer (i believe it was) quoted, these silly little women rights issues would dissappear.

Another thing people forget is the Quran is for all time. Not just 2016, so the teachings have to be able to last all of time and lets face it humans were not ready for a lot of stuff until recently.

Anywho, you are right that is another issue. Im putting kids to bed, without the wife so i cant stay around ill be back in a few hours.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD] how christian men can sell their daughters as sex slaves, take multiple wives and beat them with a thumb thick stick. It also supplies proof proving africans are lesser humans.

Now it is your perogative to believe what you wish, but it is a fact Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam.[/quote]

See here is where I disagree 100%
I'm technically Roman Catholic by birth but I'm an athiest.
"Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam"?
I'm not too sure about what happened 2000 years ago but I can tell you as of yesterday Christian Jewish and Athiest women are treated a hell of a lot better than Islamic women are treated under Sharia law.  Sure a christian woman in some weirdo sect might be a sister-wife where basically one man is married to 3 or 4 women, but those women aren't being routinely smashed to death with rocks for perceived acts of adultery. Those women aren't being burried to their necks in dirt and having their relatives bouncing rocks off their face till they're dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJv-72DSpaE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1JHHQxd7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnElkJpv0Q





> But until and unless you start interpreting the Sharia how the vast number of Muslims know it should be interperted, dont expect your opinion to hold weight. Your views on the culture of certain countries may hold a lot of weight, but your view on Islamic sharia does not.



Sharia law is brutal. It treats women like material, like objects. YOU may have a kindlier gentler version of what you perceive Sharia law to be, or what you want it to be, but that's not the average.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> See here is where I disagree 100%
> I'm technically Roman Catholic by birth but I'm an athiest.
> "Christian, Atheist, Jewish women were treated far worse before Islam"?
> I'm not too sure about what happened 2000 years ago but I can tell you as of yesterday Christian Jewish and Athiest women are treated a hell of a lot better than Islamic women are treated under Sharia law.  Sure a christian woman in some weirdo sect might be a sister-wife where basically one man is married to 3 or 4 women, but those women aren't being routinely smashed to death with rocks for perceived acts of adultery. Those women aren't being burried to their necks in dirt and having their relatives bouncing rocks off their face till they're dead.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJv-72DSpaE
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH1JHHQxd7g
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZnElkJpv0Q
> 
> 
> 
> Sharia law is brutal. It treats women like material, like objects. YOU may have a kindlier gentler version of what you perceive Sharia law to be, or what you want it to be, but that's not the average.



I think you missed my point.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t645675/

http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/slavery/

http://literalbible.blogspot.ca/2007/02/if-you-sell-your-daughter-as-slave.html?m=1

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/book_with_no_limits.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/wife_beating_not_forbidden_in_bible.htm

http://www.alahazrat.net/islam/women-before-islam.php

See look, I spent 30 seconds on google and look at all these links i got validating my points. Must mean im right, right? Do we really need to continue this pathetic childish argument? I am saying real Islam treats women right and I have authentic texts backing it up. You are talking about cultural crap. 

http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

http://www.realislam.com/muslim_women.htm

http://www.iiie.net/index.php?q=node/60

These last 3 links are non troll like. The first view is to illustrate the stupidity of relying on google to make arguments. I can very easily make and sustain an arguement that women are treated like crap in Christianity or any other religion you choose compared to Islam. Does that make me right? 

Until and unless you can differentiate between Culture and Islam, Respect what Islam ACTUALLY teaches.. this conversation is over. I can find Christian peoples and other peoples who follow the stupidest of things, right now in this day and age. But does that mean that is christianity? for crying out loud man, where is the critical thought? if you are trying to tell me women are treated like crap in certain so called Islamic countries, then yeah your right. But that doesnt make it Islam when authentic teachings from the Prophet of Islam denounces those exact practices.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD it sounds like you're getting upset.

Your first link is to Stormfront so I skipped that, I'm not big on White Supremacist web pages.

The remainder of your links; yes of course there's some weirdo shit in the bible and christian teachings. The thing is, most (99.9%) Christians don't follow those teachings. Most Christians in 2016 aren't smashing rocks off the head of women burried in Sand up to their necks. Islam Is.  

I looked for Christian cutting the hand off a thief and nothing came up expect for ISIS and other Radical Islamist's cutting the hands and heads off people. Christianity may talk about it from 2000 years ago but Islam is doing it 20 seconds ago. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

I have no doubt you have a noble self-stylized iteration of what Islam is, or should be. The truth is this is what Islam actually is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2NHltq8IM


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> AbdullahD it sounds like you're getting upset.
> 
> Your first link is to Stormfront so I skipped that, I'm not big on White Supremacist web pages.
> 
> The remainder of your links; yes of course there's some weirdo crap in the bible and christian teachings. The thing is, most (99.9%) Christians don't follow those teachings. Most Christians in 2016 aren't smashing rocks off the head of women burried in Sand up to their necks. Islam Is.
> 
> I looked for Christian cutting the hand off a thief and nothing came up expect for ISIS and other Radical Islamist's cutting the hands and heads off people. Christianity may talk about it from 2000 years ago but Islam is doing it 20 seconds ago. I'm sorry if that upsets you.
> 
> I have no doubt you have a noble self-stylized iteration of what Islam is, or should be. The truth is this is what Islam actually is.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2NHltq8IM



Maybe try looking up Christian's shooting up planned parent hood clinics, Black churchs, hanging non-white and homosexuals, the christian ethnic cleansing squads in africa, christian polygyny in india, slaughtering jews in ww2, priests raping little kids etc etc... by your fallible logic this is what christianity is, because some christians have done these acts. This is my last response because obviously you search history makes finding this stuff hard.

My point is differentiate between culture and Islam. Also I dont have data to waste watching videos.

Abdullah


----------



## a_majoor

Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture. 

He pointed out that the violent strains of Islam we are dealing with right now are centred on the Middle East, and many of the things and activities that *we* object to are artifacts of Arab/Persian culture rather than Islam. When we get farther away from the Middle East, in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, we generally find people are much more "laid back" and not very prone to follow the violent ways of their Middle Eastern counterparts. Edward pointed out that south Asian culture in general has a much softer approach to things, so the violent and radical strains of Islam were far less appealing to the majority of people.

Now for the last several decades the Saudis have been funding Madrassa's around the world to preach their own intolerant form of Wahhabi Islam, which is the negative version of the model I was suggesting upthread, which is fuelling more and more local radical groups around the world (the growth of the Internet also makes spreading messages and compelling visuals so much easier as well; sad to say the internet beheading porn of ISIS is actually a recruiting tool, among other things).

As for how to interpret Sharia law, I will have to defer to Islamic scholars (while I respect you for coming out to provide input AbdullahD, I am not going just by your interpretation of what Sharia law should be). OTOH, here in the West, where we live and work under a liberal democratic culture and system of government, I am going to side with the other posters and say that "in Rome, do as the Romans do". You can follow Sharia as a philosophy and way of life if you like, and I'm always interested in learning, but in terms of the Rule of Law, we all need to follow Western law.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture.
> 
> He pointed out that the violent strains of Islam we are dealing with right now are centred on the Middle East, and many of the things and activities that *we* object to are artifacts of Arab/Persian culture rather than Islam. When we get farther away from the Middle East, in places like Malaysia and Indonesia, we generally find people are much more "laid back" and not very prone to follow the violent ways of their Middle Eastern counterparts. Edward pointed out that south Asian culture in general has a much softer approach to things, so the violent and radical strains of Islam were far less appealing to the majority of people.
> 
> Now for the last several decades the Saudis have been funding Madrassa's around the world to preach their own intolerant form of Wahhabi Islam, which is the negative version of the model I was suggesting upthread, which is fuelling more and more local radical groups around the world (the growth of the Internet also makes spreading messages and compelling visuals so much easier as well; sad to say the internet beheading porn of ISIS is actually a recruiting tool, among other things).
> 
> As for how to interpret Sharia law, I will have to defer to Islamic scholars (while I respect you for coming out to provide input AbdullahD, I am not going just by your interpretation of what Sharia law should be). OTOH, here in the West, where we live and work under a liberal democratic culture and system of government, I am going to side with the other posters and say that "in Rome, do as the Romans do". You can follow Sharia as a philosophy and way of life if you like, and I'm always interested in learning, but in terms of the Rule of Law, we all need to follow Western law.



That last paragraph is entrenched in sharia  law we must follow the laws of the land we reside in 

dont just take my opinion look at the scholars


----------



## Brad Sallows

Stipulated, that trying to export our own democratic institutions as we know them is a waste of time.

Therefore, benighted peoples, as a reciprocal favour stop coming here to f*ck up our institutions by bringing in selected bits and pieces of your medieval ways.  We can't tell in advance which ones are going to erode whatever it is that makes our society so desirable to live in, so either stay in the Old Country or leave all of your customs and practices in the Old Country.

Furthermore, to all the self-aggrandizing religious and cultural triumphalists citing laundry lists of grievances in half the countries most people don't even know exist, take up your grievances with the governments of those countries.  If you envy our prosperity and freedom, emulate us rather than trying to drag us down into your cesspool of misery.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Rather than spiralling down this argument, I'll raise a point which I think Edward brought up some time ago in another thread about the role of culture.



Great points, thanks Thucydides (and Edward).


----------



## jollyjacktar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> That last paragraph is entrenched in sharia  law we must follow the laws of the land we reside in
> 
> dont just take my opinion look at the scholars



Then why are they pushing for, and getting Sharia Law in the UK?  Why did one of the VIA Rail terrorists try that shit (isn't bound by Canadian Law only Sharia) as his defence in court?


----------



## Remius

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Then why are they pushing for, and getting Sharia Law in the UK?  Why did one of the VIA Rail terrorists try that crap (isn't bound by Canadian Law only Sharia) as his defence in court?



We've seen many people try and state they aren't bound by Canadian law (Freemen on the land for example?).  I would hardly think that an accused extremist facing the courts is an example of some concerted effort to bring sharia law to Canada.

In England some context is needed.  It is an arbitration process that all parties agree to.  And is regulated under their arbitration act.  It deals primarily with marriage and divorce and other civil matters.  Not unlike cannon law processes that exist here in Canada. So while I can get a divorce using the Catholic church and that process is recognised by law, even if the church denies me an annulment, I can still get a divorce recognised by law even though the church refuses to recognise it.   

Of course that does not mean that women are treated fairly under that system (Sharia), but seems to be something that is participated on a volunteer basis and is not anything that can be forced on anyone.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Remius said:
			
		

> We've seen many people try and state they aren't bound by Canadian law (Freemen on the land for example?).  I would hardly think that an accused extremist facing the courts is an example of some concerted effort to bring sharia law to Canada.
> 
> In England some context is needed.  It is an arbitration process that all parties agree to.  And is regulated under their arbitration act.  It deals primarily with marriage and divorce and other civil matters.  Not unlike cannon law processes that exist here in Canada. So while I can get a divorce using the Catholic church and that process is recognised by law, even if the church denies me an annulment, I can still get a divorce recognised by law even though the church refuses to recognise it.
> 
> Of course that does not mean that women are treated fairly under that system (Sharia), but seems to be something that is participated on a volunteer basis and is not anything that can be forced on anyone.



I didn't say dickhead was trying to get Sharia Law introduced to Canada.  I said that he felt he wasn't bound by Canadian Law.  A big difference.

I believe that in the UK there are those who are trying to have Sharia Law replace the civil laws of the UK in certain enclaves not just in mediation situations.

As for those freemen of the land idiots, they are more anti-government and taxes than anything else and are differently motivated.  As Abdullah stated when in country X you are to live by the laws of said country.  Again, a big difference between Sharia Law in the West and freemen of the land morons.  They don't have a caveat instructing them to obey the laws of the land.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I think you have been using bad stuff, Remius:

First of all, in Canada, the Divorce Act is a Federal Law. It is quite clear and impossible to avoid. Superior Courts, and only Superior Courts in the various provinces and territories can grant divorces. Absolutely no one else, and definitely not religious "arbitrator" tribunals.

The very few cannon tribunals left in Canada are here to apply cannon law to Catholics on issues arising from the religious aspects of their life only: i.e. They exist only to decide if the church will grant you an annulment - nothing else, and that annulment - if you get it -carries no weight whatsoever before the Courts and the State, where only a properly pronounced divorce in Superior Court is valid.

And only a few years ago, the Muslim communities of Ontario tried to get the very type of "arbitration" sharia tribunals you mentioned exist in England to go around the rules arising from the Family Assets Act, in other words, to deprive Muslim women of their equality rights under that act by giving most of the assets to the husband. There was an uproar and in the end Ontario clearly stated that no one could go around the Act and the province would not authorize such tribunal. Funny enough, someone pointed out that such "tribunal" existed in the Jewish community. And as a result, they were also excluded from dealing with  the Family Assets Act from now on, and became restricted (like the Catholics) to deciding if the wife could compel her husband to provide her with a "Get" (Jewish divorce that lets you get remarried at the Synagogue if you want later).


----------



## Remius

Hmn, seems you are right and I'll retract what i said.  

For the record I'm not for it.  At all. Rather would prefer to see an equal application of the rules to everyone.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"I dont envy you, I pity you."

You engage like a teenage girl.  If you want to criticize my shortcomings, do it directly, openly, and with substantive and substantiated points - not in some feminized/emasculated tone implying a position of moral advantage which does not exist.

I accept the premise that westerners should demonstrate more humility and interfere less abroad; we have problems of our own that still need resolution.  But we - the "West" - should without apology assert the cultural customs and institutional practices which have served us well, and not dilute them in the name of insubstantial and meaningless concepts such as "diversity" and "multiculturalism".


----------



## AbdullahD

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "I dont envy you, I pity you."
> 
> You engage like a teenage girl.  If you want to criticize my shortcomings, do it directly, openly, and with substantive and substantiated points - not in some feminized/emasculated tone implying a position of moral advantage which does not exist.
> 
> I accept the premise that westerners should demonstrate more humility and interfere less abroad; we have problems of our own that still need resolution.  But we - the "West" - should without apology assert the cultural customs and institutional practices which have served us well, and not dilute them in the name of insubstantial and meaningless concepts such as "diversity" and "multiculturalism".



I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.

Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.

So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.

Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).

Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.

btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look  it was just for illustration. 

Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.

Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.

As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.

Abdullah


----------



## Jed

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.
> 
> Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.
> 
> So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.
> 
> Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).
> 
> Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.
> 
> btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look  it was just for illustration.
> 
> Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.
> 
> Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.
> 
> As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.
> 
> Abdullah



Far be it from me to defend Brad. He does a great job looking after himself.  However; He had a very factual and reasoned response, albeit blunt and harsh.   I see nothing immature or childish in what he had to say.  Your response on the other hand was very snobbish and "holier than thou"  No doubt what he had to say struck a chink in your armour.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you.

Pity when expressed as a statement of assumed moral advantage reflects poorly on the pitier, not the pitied.  Treat people as equals, don't condescend, and don't project.


----------



## Edward Campbell

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I made an assessment of you and critiqued you honestly, in a semi private forum. Something I was taught as a child, not to expose peoples shortcomings for all to see. Since you persist in child like actions, it seems I must develop my arguements more.
> 
> Jarnhammer, yes I was getting annoyed. Hence why I extricated myself from our conversation. In my version of the truth, people must differentiate culture from religion. I also believe people must assess all angles before they make decisions.
> 
> So when so many prophetic teachings trump and contradict  many things cultural Muslims do, we should be able to discern that what they do is not Islamic. Hadith collections like Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc have many stories on womens rights. So we should, in my little world, see what the scholars have taught historically and recently and where they get the proof from and if other proofs exist.
> 
> Then to further that a person should, again in my world, assess how the prophet sws said sharia and Quran should be interperted. Then apply those rules and see if they hold weight. Which in many cases proper interpretation of the Quran and sharia, makes a big difference. There is more then 15 qualities a person Must have before he is eligible to give exegesis of Quran.. that way he doesnt corrupt it's true teachings (which is what cultural Muslims have done).
> 
> Also as a side note, some of those verses you quoted I did not see the correlation to the arguement you made. I will concede that their are things about Islam you may not like, which is all fine and dandy. Our views of capital punishment and modesty, a lot of people disagree with and that is fine. But if you think we treat our women like crap that is a gross injustice, makes me think, you think many Muslims are less then human. I have a daughter and any so called man who wants to treat her like crap, will have a rude awakening, yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.
> 
> btw those first links were to substantiate that you can find anything on the internet you choose to. Anyone who takes stormfront seriously,  I dont want to waste time on. So I'm happy you didn't even look  it was just for illustration.
> 
> Now Brad, your ignorant and narrow view of the world is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, you tend to look the fool.
> 
> Now I am not sure why I am responding to you, cause I had you pegged a while back as an Islamophobic. But meh, I wasted time from my life in replying to you... honestly I should just google articulate and educated responses to your questions and copy paste them here instead of typing my own.
> 
> As a final note, if people have not noticed. I do not post in other areas in authoritative ways, because I have no clue what i am talking about by my own criteria. So I am limited to posting here, because I have some small knowledge. Until and unless I learn more, you will find my posting on this site limited to very few topics.
> 
> Abdullah




I promised myself to stay out of this discussion, but I do need to comment on two of your points, the ones I highlighted:

     First ~ I agree with both; and

     Second ~ I think *you're* the one who is missing the point.

I have said many times and over many years in these fora that the problem with the _Islamic Crescent_ is cultural, not religious. I have little knowledge of and no brief for or against Islam ... I simply regard it as wholly inconsequential, on about a par with, say, Shinto or Sikhism but with more adherents. What I have spoken about, at some length, is that *culture matters*.

My assessment based on 70+ years of living, working, visiting in too many countries to count on five or six continents and several island regions is that people, regardless of race, creed or sex, are all roughly alike: smart and stupid, honest and venal, brave and cowardly in pretty much the same proportions everywhere. So why do some "cultures" dominate others? The answer is in the question: culture matters. In my opinion the cultures of Africa, all of it, the Middle East and West Asia and of the pre Columbian Americas were ~ and still are ~ weak, even _retarded_, in the sense of lagging "behind" others. My simplest definition of cultural retardation is the notion of people as property. If your culture treats women, for example, as inferior to men, for whatever reason, then it is a _retarded_ culture and it will not succeed in and beyond the 21st century. If your culture condones or, worse, practices slavery then it, too, is retarded, or worse, and, perhaps, should be put out of its misery if it will not reform itself. Those markers are not, in themselves, overly "cultural" they are, in fact, measures of _societal "efficiency_," efficient societies make the best possible use of all their human resources and that means that men and women must be treated as equally valuable resource elements and we all know, from economics 101, that slavery is an inefficient use of resources. Many, many smart people in the _Islamic Crescent_ and in other regions know that to be true and they are trying to make changes but the cultural weight is too heavy and, in some cases, religion reinforces or, more often, simply conforms to cultural norms.

     _(One of the first things Zhou Enlai needed to do in 1949 was to (temporarily) suppress Confucianism while he *forced* equality on to China... Confucianism adapted and returned,
      accepting, as has most of Christianity and much of Judaism, the basic principle of equality.)_

So I am with Brad: the problem is that we need to protect and promote our strong, "*right*" cultural norms here at home ... and that may mean insisting that people who come here _adapt_ their _beliefs_ to suit our environment. After all, we didn't conscript anyone from Indonesia, Pakistan, Eqypt or Algeria and force them to come to Canada, they all wanted to be here rather than there, for whatever reason, and it is not unreasonable to expect, even demand that they contribute to our ways rather than to try and change them holus-bolus. I do  not believe that Islam, per se, is a problem ... it's just another superstition, one amongst many. I do not believe that Muslims are, inherently, less able or less law abiding or less (or more) anything. I do believe that Muslims in Canada must adapt themselves and Islam in Canada to suit Canada, not try to make Canada fit Saudi Arabian cultural norms. That, _in my opinion_, is the point.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Religion and culture can not really be separated.  Each drives and provides excuses for the shortcomings of the other.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I promised myself to stay out of this discussion, but I do need to comment on two of your points, the ones I highlighted:
> 
> First ~ I agree with both; and
> 
> Second ~ I think *you're* the one who is missing the point.
> 
> I have said many times and over many years in these fora that the problem with the _Islamic Crescent_ is cultural, not religious. I have little knowledge of and no brief for or against Islam ... I simply regard it as wholly inconsequential, on about a par with, say, Shinto or Sikhism but with more adherents. What I have spoken about, at some length, is that *culture matters*.
> 
> My assessment based on 70+ years of living, working, visiting in too many countries to count on five or six continents and several island regions is that people, regardless of race, creed or sex, are all roughly alike: smart and stupid, honest and venal, brave and cowardly in pretty much the same proportions everywhere. So why do some "cultures" dominate others? The answer is in the question: culture matters. In my opinion the cultures of Africa, all of it, the Middle East and West Asia and of the pre Columbian Americas were ~ and still are ~ weak, even _retarded_, in the sense of lagging "behind" others. My simplest definition of cultural retardation is the notion of people as property. If your culture treats women, for example, as inferior to men, for whatever reason, then it is a _retarded_ culture and it will not succeed in and beyond the 21st century. If your culture condones or, worse, practices slavery then it, too, is retarded, or worse, and, perhaps, should be put out of its misery if it will not reform itself. Those markers are not, in themselves, overly "cultural" they are, in fact, measures of _societal "efficiency_," efficient societies make the best possible use of all their human resources and that means that men and women must be treated as equally valuable resource elements and we all know, from economics 101, that slavery is an inefficient use of resources. Many, many smart people in the _Islamic Crescent_ and in other regions know that to be true and they are trying to make changes but the cultural weight is too heavy and, in some cases, religion reinforces or, more often, simply conforms to cultural norms.
> 
> _(One of the first things Zhou Enlai needed to do in 1949 was to (temporarily) suppress Confucianism while he *forced* equality on to China... Confucianism adapted and returned,
> accepting, as has most of Christianity and much of Judaism, the basic principle of equality.)_
> 
> So I am with Brad: the problem is that we need to protect and promote our strong, "*right*" cultural norms here at home ... and that may mean insisting that people who come here _adapt_ their _beliefs_ to suit our environment. After all, we didn't conscript anyone from Indonesia, Pakistan, Eqypt or Algeria and force them to come to Canada, they all wanted to be here rather than there, for whatever reason, and it is not unreasonable to expect, even demand that they contribute to our ways rather than to try and change them holus-bolus. I do  not believe that Islam, per se, is a problem ... it's just another superstition, one amongst many. I do not believe that Muslims are, inherently, less able or less law abiding or less (or more) anything. I do believe that Muslims in Canada must adapt themselves and Islam in Canada to suit Canada, not try to make Canada fit Saudi Arabian cultural norms. That, _in my opinion_, is the point.



 :goodpost:   Thank you for your input, ER, well said as always.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit on tone, here ...


			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Therefore, benighted peoples, as a reciprocal favour stop coming here to f*ck up our institutions by bringing in selected bits and pieces of your medieval ways.  We can't tell in advance which ones are going to erode whatever it is that makes our society so desirable to live in, so either stay in the Old Country or leave all of your customs and practices in the Old Country.
> 
> Furthermore, to all the self-aggrandizing religious and cultural triumphalists citing laundry lists of grievances in half the countries most people don't even know exist, take up your grievances with the governments of those countries.  If you envy our prosperity and freedom, emulate us rather than trying to drag us down into your cesspool of misery.


Good points (if some folks don't like country X exporting their values to country Y, then kindly keep Y values out of country Z, please, and if you don't like whazzup in country Z, take it up with Z's government), if a bit harshly put.  That said ...


			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> ... Now Brad, *your ignorant and narrow view of the world* is why I pity you. You seem to only think a half dozen Islamic countries exist or are worth citing, which is quite pathetic. There are many Islamic countries in the world and they range from Progressive to regressive, from liberal to conservative, from rich to poor. Most people know and understand this, which makes a lot of people shake their head at your arguements. Quickly google up Islamic countries in the world and realize that we are contributing a lot to this world. Take a look at how Muslims helped shape your so called western world. Whenever you make general statements about billions of people, *you tend to look the fool* ...


... we can do better than _this_, too, in our discussions here.  AbdullahD, we appreciate your useful input, but others have fallen on their sword for having a less-than-ideal "how they share" in spite of having sometimes-decent "what they share".

Let's keep it civil, folks - attack positions/arguments, not _people_.  Thanks, all.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]
yet I expect her to practice Islam as much as she is able to.[/quote]

As a parent what would you do if your daughter told you she was a christian or atheist?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> As a parent what would you do if your daughter told you she was a christian or atheist?



I have no need, nor desire to discuss what I would do in hypothetical situations with you.  In fact I am not sure why you would even bring this up in a thread were we are discussing general Sharia matters, but each to their own.

Abdullah


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I believe the point was brought up for the following reason, Abdullah:

One of the cultural concept we, in the "West", consider a basic tenet of our "culture" is freedom of religion, which includes by necessity freedom from religion. This means that we consider the "holding of one's religious beliefs" and the "following of one's religion's practices" _not otherwise incompatible with the general laws of the land applicable to all_, is a personal, individual matter. 

One has no right to impose one's religion or one's religious obligations on anybody else. Those anybody else include your wives/husbands/children. Each of these individuals has the absolute right to chose their religion or absence of religion and to practice any religion they chose the very exact way they chose to. My personal opinion here, BTW, is that for any parent to raise their children in their own religion is wrong and constitutes child abuse. Teach your kids to think for themselves, let them be exposed to all points of view on all religions (you yourself said earlier that people should look at issues from all angles before deciding) and, when they are old enough to make their own choices - and only then - let them chose what they want and endorse it. Remember that "religion" is not a human characteristic, like the colour of your eyes or hair, your height or weight - it is a personal decision to believe or not in something.

But Sharia law does not permit this freedom: Leaving Islam in any way makes you an apostate, and the punishment for apostasy in Sharia is death. Don't tell us otherwise, it is written black on white in the koran.

So the question remains, how would you react if your daughter told you she doesn't believe in Allah anymore, or wishes to become a Buddhist?

Aslo, remember that in all places and times where religion was able to impose the death penalty, and that includes most of Africa and the middle east Muslim countries these days and the Inquisition era Europe for Christians, for not following the religion, it becomes impossible to acknowledge the simple fact that in all times and all eras, the majority of "religious" people were religious because it was imposed on them. By and large, humans couldn't care less about following religions, but in all eras, have had no choice but to outwardly follow the obligations because the consequences for not doing so are too harsh. 

If you don't believe that religion disappears when the power of imposition of the priest caste is removed, just look at Western Europe and in Quebec here: probably the least religious places in the world these days.

Disclosure statement: After a Catholic upbringing that saw me study at two seminaries, I have been for the longest time what is described as a "radical" atheist, just so there is no possible confusion.


----------



## jollyjacktar

:goodpost:

Another excellent post OGBD, thanks for chipping in. 

I was forced to church until I was old enough to cease and desist.  I'm a rabid Atheist,  married to a Muslim convert, however our children have never been forced one way or another.  They seem to be neutral as far as I know, but that is their business.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I have no need, nor desire to discuss what I would do in hypothetical situations with you.  In fact I am not sure why you would even bring this up in a thread were we are *discussing general Sharia matters*, but each to their own.
> 
> Abdullah



I thought we were discussing general Sharia matters.  You know, not the hard core murder the infidel types but "every day peaceful" Muslims. That kindlier gentler Shaira Law we spoke about earlier, which is what I assumed you were talking about supporting in North America.

I thought it would be a very relevant and telling question actually.   I get the feeling you wouldn't support your daughters right to choose her own religion. 


[quote author=Oldgateboatdriver]

One of the cultural concept we, in the "West", consider a basic tenet of our "culture" is freedom of religion, which includes by necessity freedom from religion. 
*
But Sharia law does not permit this freedom: Leaving Islam in any way makes you an apostate, and the punishment for apostasy in Sharia is death. 
[/quote]

Exactly.


One needs only commit adultery, or be accused of committing adultery under Shaira law for a death sentence, as this father proudly carries out.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=770_1413890712


----------



## AbdullahD

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I promised myself to stay out of this discussion, but I do need to comment on two of your points, the ones I highlighted:
> 
> First ~ I agree with both; and
> 
> Second ~ I think *you're* the one who is missing the point.
> 
> I have said many times and over many years in these fora that the problem with the _Islamic Crescent_ is cultural, not religious. I have little knowledge of and no brief for or against Islam ... I simply regard it as wholly inconsequential, on about a par with, say, Shinto or Sikhism but with more adherents. What I have spoken about, at some length, is that *culture matters*.
> 
> My assessment based on 70+ years of living, working, visiting in too many countries to count on five or six continents and several island regions is that people, regardless of race, creed or sex, are all roughly alike: smart and stupid, honest and venal, brave and cowardly in pretty much the same proportions everywhere. So why do some "cultures" dominate others? The answer is in the question: culture matters. In my opinion the cultures of Africa, all of it, the Middle East and West Asia and of the pre Columbian Americas were ~ and still are ~ weak, even _retarded_, in the sense of lagging "behind" others. My simplest definition of cultural retardation is the notion of people as property. If your culture treats women, for example, as inferior to men, for whatever reason, then it is a _retarded_ culture and it will not succeed in and beyond the 21st century. If your culture condones or, worse, practices slavery then it, too, is retarded, or worse, and, perhaps, should be put out of its misery if it will not reform itself. Those markers are not, in themselves, overly "cultural" they are, in fact, measures of _societal "efficiency_," efficient societies make the best possible use of all their human resources and that means that men and women must be treated as equally valuable resource elements and we all know, from economics 101, that slavery is an inefficient use of resources. Many, many smart people in the _Islamic Crescent_ and in other regions know that to be true and they are trying to make changes but the cultural weight is too heavy and, in some cases, religion reinforces or, more often, simply conforms to cultural norms.
> 
> _(One of the first things Zhou Enlai needed to do in 1949 was to (temporarily) suppress Confucianism while he *forced* equality on to China... Confucianism adapted and returned,
> accepting, as has most of Christianity and much of Judaism, the basic principle of equality.)_
> 
> So I am with Brad: the problem is that we need to protect and promote our strong, "*right*" cultural norms here at home ... and that may mean insisting that people who come here _adapt_ their _beliefs_ to suit our environment. After all, we didn't conscript anyone from Indonesia, Pakistan, Eqypt or Algeria and force them to come to Canada, they all wanted to be here rather than there, for whatever reason, and it is not unreasonable to expect, even demand that they contribute to our ways rather than to try and change them holus-bolus. I do  not believe that Islam, per se, is a problem ... it's just another superstition, one amongst many. I do not believe that Muslims are, inherently, less able or less law abiding or less (or more) anything. I do believe that Muslims in Canada must adapt themselves and Islam in Canada to suit Canada, not try to make Canada fit Saudi Arabian cultural norms. That, _in my opinion_, is the point.



I agree with you in the most part. My arguement is that the disgusting things  these countries do is cultural not religious. So I must really be failing if that position is not apparent. 

Now I further agree that many things in the so called Islamic crescent specifically is very disturbing. But they are not Islamic in nature and the prophetic teachings show that. 

There are many Islamic nations and some are very fair and equal to all peoples. But many have work to do. No argument there, it's just when people see a culture and blame the religion i find that incorrect. 

Its like blaming Christianity for Nazis or the witch burnings.

Abdullah


----------



## jollyjacktar

You must be joking.  Of course the witch burning etc can be placed fairly at the feet of Christianity.  The Inquisition and Salem trials were under their watch.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> You must be joking.  Of course the witch burning etc can be placed fairly at the feet of Christianity.  The Inquisition and Salem trials were under their watch.



In my opinion, it can be placed at the feet of so called christians. Not Christianity, ask the majority of christians if witch burning in the way they did it back then is a Christian thing to do and they will say no.

In my view Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all peace loving religions. So when assesing acts done by people claiming to be from these religions. Once must look over their belief systems.

I always found that love out weighed the hate in religious texts, so the wrathful verses must be considered in full context.

But I see your point and understand. I can accept that is what you believe and will remember it god willing in future exchanges.

Abdullah

p.s I am at work, so doing short replys until I can manage the lengthier ones.


----------



## jollyjacktar

You're looking back at events from 300 - 500+ years ago with 21St century eyes, education and morals.  I believe it clearly states in the Bible they were following that they shall not suffer to let a witch live.  I also believe it is covered in Quran as well that witches are a no no.  

Of course we both know, real witches don't exist any more than Santa or Tooth Fairies.  They were not so enlightened as we are today and witchcraft was as real to them as modern medicine is to us.

I'll further say that the Inquisition in particular was an official, sanctioned program of the Catholic Church.  It doesn't get more Christian than that.  Thankfully Christianity has evolved (fundamentalists notwithstanding) from ignorance and intolerance are more understanding, forgiving and loving.   Better Christians if you will.

At the end of the day, regardless of which faith you follow, it is still interpreted by mortals and led by mortals.  As such it is open to abuse, deceit, misuse and mismanagement as the mood takes their leaders or the polar opposite. The proof which can be seen today with the barbarians of Daesh or the current Pope who seems to be trying to correct mistakes of the past.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'm curious to as to what you would do AbdullahD.

My parents made us go to church [Sunday school] until we were around 13 and then we got to choose.......came up with 2 believers and 2 nons.
It never, ever came up again.

If family doesn't top religion/culture then I would not have the time of day and ................well, lets just stop there I shall.

EDIT
PS:  I have no idea if my 2 Daughters go to church or not.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> In my view Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all peace loving religions.



That's a very creative view which conveniently ignores all the violent direct quotes about murder, revenge, maiming people and various punishments found in the aforementioned holy books.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> EDIT
> PS:  I have no idea if my 2 Daughters go to church or not.



You mean you don't have a male member of the family escort them everywhere they go  ???

Sorry, bad joke but I couldn't resist.  [


----------



## AbdullahD

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm curious to as to what you would do AbdullahD.
> 
> My parents made us go to church [Sunday school] until we were around 13 and then we got to choose.......came up with 2 believers and 2 nons.
> It never, ever came up again.
> 
> If family doesn't top religion/culture then I would not have the time of day and ................well, lets just stop there I shall.
> 
> EDIT
> PS:  I have no idea if my 2 Daughters go to church or not.



An interesting read, I have not quite finished reading it all. but it seems to convey a interesting point.

http://amuslimconvertoncemore.blogspot.ca/2010/08/notable-muslims-on-punishment-for.html?m=1

a wiki link just cause lol
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


http://muslimmatters.org/2014/12/02/apostasy-among-muslims-in-the-united-kingdom/

Abdullah

I have edited


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well, lets see, just for a quick start: 

Quran (2:217) (4:89) (9:11-12) (9:73-74);
Bukhari (52:260) (83:37) (89:271);
Abu Dawud (4346);
Imam Malik (36.18.15).

The "there is no compulsion in religion..." surah, which is one of the most abused of them all, is an early saying of the prophet, from his beginning in Mecca when he held little to no power and was trying to start to convert people to his revelation. He simply did not carry the power to impose anything then. If you look at the later surah and hadith from after his flight to Medina - when he became much more established and powerful - they are more radical and definitive in their contradiction of that earlier surah. And Muslim know that one concept of Islamic jurisprudence is that the earlier surah and hadith are abrogated by the later ones - thus apostasy's penalty is the later one.

BTW, the very fact that "earlier" revelations have to be "abrogated" by "later" revelations is a sure sign that the whole thing is a human fabrication. But even if it was to be believed that it is the word of god, the very fact that there are contradictions and that  a human must develop a rule to figure out which one to follow is a sure sign that something other than god guides humans in making such determination. And that is exactly what happened to the Jews and Christian: modern interpretations pass over the very nasty bits found in the torah and the bible, which used to be given literal interpretation and application, to retain the more palatable ones as they relate to our modern world's morals. But if it is human's that chose the bits and pieces of the "sacred" texts that are to be skipped and those that are to be applied, then the moral guidance to make such calls cannot come from the sacred text themselves - so they must come from a "current" moral zeitgeist where the interpreter lives.


----------



## AbdullahD

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well, lets see, just for a quick start:
> 
> Quran (2:217) (4:89) (9:11-12) (9:73-74);
> Bukhari (52:260) (83:37) (89:271);
> Abu Dawud (4346);
> Imam Malik (36.18.15).
> 
> The "there is no compulsion in religion..." surah, which is one of the most abused of them all, is an early saying of the prophet, from his beginning in Mecca when he held little to no power and was trying to start to convert people to his revelation. He simply did not carry the power to impose anything then. If you look at the later surah and hadith from after his flight to Medina - when he became much more established and powerful - they are more radical and definitive in their contradiction of that earlier surah. And Muslim know that one concept of Islamic jurisprudence is that the earlier surah and hadith are abrogated by the later ones - thus apostasy's penalty is the later one.
> 
> BTW, the very fact that "earlier" revelations have to be "abrogated" by "later" revelations is a sure sign that the whole thing is a human fabrication. But even if it was to be believed that it is the word of god, the very fact that there are contradictions and that  a human must develop a rule to figure out which one to follow is a sure sign that something other than god guides humans in making such determination. And that is exactly what happened to the Jews and Christian: modern interpretations pass over the very nasty bits found in the torah and the bible, which used to be given literal interpretation and application, to retain the more palatable ones as they relate to our modern world's morals. But if it is human's that chose the bits and pieces of the "sacred" texts that are to be skipped and those that are to be applied, then the moral guidance to make such calls cannot come from the sacred text themselves - so they must come from a "current" moral zeitgeist where the interpreter lives.



Ok, then why does Imam shafi not follow all the teachings of Imam abu hanafi? Why then some of these actions come after hijrah if it was fully and completely abrogated?

in this answer you have your rebuttal. I am to busy.

Abdullah


----------



## jollyjacktar

Abdullah, your rebuttal, to my understanding of, only seems to cement what OGBD stated.  It's all made and managed by mortal men.  Which makes me scratch my head as to who's really in charge of setting policy. The Divine, or multiple individuals as they see fit.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Abdullah, your rebuttal, to my understanding of, only seems to cement what OGBD stated.  It's all made and managed by mortal men.  Which makes me scratch my head as to who's really in charge of setting policy. The Divine, or multiple individuals as they see fit.



Dangit, I was here thinking that rebuttal was pure genius  

Would it help if I added in, "Please explain why the 4 madhabs exist, if only one interpretation can be accepted?"

If that few questions don't help, then I am going to have to spend some time later today to explain.

Abdullah

p.s The deen is meant to be easy


----------



## tomahawk6

Abdulla what is your take on these verses from the Koran ?

https://carm.org/islam-religion-peace-and-terrorism



> 1.The Qur'an tells Muslims to kill and go to war to fight for Islam: Quran, chapters (Surahs) 9:5, 2:191, 2:193, 3:118, 4:75, 76, 5:33, 8:12, 8:65, 9:73, 123, 33:60-62.
> 
> 2.Fight for Allah: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers," (Quran 2:191).
> 
> 3.Muslims are to battle for Allah: "Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak," (Quran 4:76).
> 
> 4.Kill those against Islam: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter," (Quran 5:33).
> 
> 5.Beheading: "When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment," (Quran 8:12).
> 
> 6.Allah urges war: "O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand," (Quran 8:65).
> 
> 7.Slay non-muslims: "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).
> 
> 8.Allah urges war: "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).
> 9.Allah urges war: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)," (Quran 9:123).
> 
> 10.Allah urges killing: " . . . the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist . . . 61Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. 62(Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).
> 
> 11.Beheading: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens . . . " (Quran 47:4).
> 
> 12.Allah loves those who fight for him: "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure," (Quran 61:4).


----------



## AbdullahD

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Abdulla what is your take on these verses from the Koran ?
> 
> https://carm.org/islam-religion-peace-and-terrorism



I am not Qualified to give Tafsir of Quran. So I have no opinion on them. But you can follow this link I provide and read the Tafsir for them yourself.

http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EMQ.htm

btw I got distracted so I was not able to explain the other posts I made. But I see no dire need to anyways.

Abdullah


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

But you have still dodged a very valid question for over a day now.


----------



## AbdullahD

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> But you have still dodged a very valid question for over a day now.



Was that the one I quite bluntly said I would not answer?

Or was there another?

Abdullah


----------



## daftandbarmy

Might be just  a few parallels today with past events in the middle east:

Mahdi Uprising

Among the forces historians see as the causes of the uprising are ethnic Sudanese anger at the foreign Turkish Ottoman rulers, Muslim revivalist anger at the Turks' lax religious standards and willingness to appoint non-Muslims such as the Christian Charles Gordon to high positions, and Sudanese Sufi resistance to "dry, scholastic Islam of Egyptian officialdom."[2]

In the 1870s, a Muslim cleric named Muhammad Ahmad preached renewal of the faith and liberation of the land, and began attracting followers. Soon in open revolt against the Egyptians, Muhammad Ahmad proclaimed himself the Mahdi, the promised redeemer of the Islamic world. In August 1881 the then-governor of the Sudan, Raouf Pasha, sent two companies of infantry each with one machine gun to arrest him. The captains of the two companies were each promised promotion if their soldiers were the ones to return the Mahdi to the governor. Both companies disembarked from the steamer that had brought them up the Nile to Aba Island and approached the Mahdi's village from separate directions. Arriving simultaneously, each force began to fire blindly on the other, allowing the Mahdi's scant followers to attack and destroy each force in turn at the Battle of Aba.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Was that the one I quite bluntly said I would not answer?
> 
> Or was there another?
> 
> Abdullah



I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.

In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.


In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.


----------



## Jed

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.
> 
> In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.
> 
> 
> In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.



I believe you have put the spotlight on the key difficulty of the western world understanding or fully accepting the Muslim faith as is and unreformed.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.



Now to be fair, was that not really a barbaric minded cultural thing and not a religious connection  with something like Sharia Law?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I respect you for having the integrity to choose not to answer instead of posting a platitude or falsehood to avoid, I'm assuming, compromising your image of religious tolerance.
> 
> In my view it outlines the hidden hard-line beliefs in many so called moderates after a few layers are peeled back and why we in the west don't want anything remotely to do with Sharia law.
> 
> 
> In the west we struggle to understand why Aqsa Parvez, for example, was killed by her father and brother just for wanting to get a job and dress like a Canadian 16-year-old girl (her peers). It's a belief system that is simply too far removed from what we've built here.



Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.

I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.

Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.

So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.

Abdullah


----------



## George Wallace

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.
> 
> I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.
> 
> Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.
> 
> So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.
> 
> Abdullah



Actually, your refusal to answer a hypothetical question is quite telling.  Posting links as to the "peaceful intentions of Islam" is informative; but the lack of other links that point out the use of "unscrupulous deception" as is proposed in the Quran towards gaining the faith and trust of "non-believers" is just as telling.  We so often repeat history through the simple act of not being educated on the events that have led us to where we are today.  How many societies have been destroyed through acts of deception and/or betrayal?

Hopefully you are not so devote and inflexible in your ways that it will prevent you from integrating into the society in which you now find yourself.


----------



## AbdullahD

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually, your refusal to answer a hypothetical question is quite telling.  Posting links as to the "peaceful intentions of Islam" is informative; but the lack of other links that point out the use of "unscrupulous deception" as is proposed in the Quran towards gaining the faith and trust of "non-believers" is just as telling.  We so often repeat history through the simple act of not being educated on the events that have led us to where we are today.  How many societies have been destroyed through acts of deception and/or betrayal?
> 
> Hopefully you are not so devote and inflexible in your ways that it will prevent you from integrating into the society in which you now find yourself.



I am not sure how I can post links for every single topic that we can possibly cover, but since I notice it is an issue... here we go.

Lying and deceit are only allowed in Islam under very specific circumstances. I assume you have not been well briefed on this topic. Ill add some links.

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/28898

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/29097

https://islamqa.info/en/178975

https://islamqa.info/en/2424

https://islamqa.info/en/175632

I think these link fully and completely cover this topic.

Again it is quicker for me to post links then to spend hours typing replys.

Now if you really think I'm lying and deceiving then we have a much larger issue. I have been doing my best to be honest and straight forward here. I just dont wish to dwell on hypothetical situations.

Abdullah


----------



## Good2Golf

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Actually if you review my earlier posts, you will see I have already posted 3 links on apostasy and how to treat people who leave Islam. I highly suggest people actually read the links I post, I do so for a reason.
> 
> I still do not see any need to show you guys what I would do in a  hypothetical situation. I have learned to avoid talking about what I personally would do in hypothetical situations, because so many people wish to look for one little thing to take out of context to scream extremist with.
> 
> Now If Islam was such a violent hateful religion, the majority of Muslims would be doing hateful violent things. But thats not the case, only a very small minority is, but thats the minority so many wish to focus on. Remember there are 1.8 billon Muslims in the world, you can pretty much find a so called muslim doing anything.
> 
> So please review the links I have posted and therein you will see a good outline of what Muslims should do. Unless ive completely failed.
> 
> Abdullah



Abdullah, I appreciate greatly your previous contribution to the discussion, it has been very valuable in gaining an appreciation of some of the nuances of Islam to those of us who are not familiar with the complexity of the religion and of its interplay between religion and culture.

That said, I do find it interesting when the question of Aqsa Parvez and her death within the framework of culture, Sharia Law and Islam is posed, there is no answer, or even addressing its nature, within the 'read my past links' response.

Indeed you are free to answer (as you have in the past, thank you for that), or not, as you choose, and that is entirely your choice and right.  It is, however, also our right to wonder, and indeed at least pose the question, even if we know that a response may be deferred or refused.

Regards
G2G


----------



## AbdullahD

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Abdullah, I appreciate greatly your previous contribution to the discussion, it has been very valuable in gaining an appreciation of some of the nuances of Islam to those of us who are not familiar with the complexity of the religion and of its interplay between religion and culture.
> 
> That said, I do find it interesting when the question of Aqsa Parvez and her death within the framework of culture, Sharia Law and Islam is posed, there is no answer, or even addressing its nature, within the 'read my past links' response.
> 
> Indeed you are free to answer (as you have in the past, thank you for that), or not, as you choose, and that is entirely your choice and right.  It is, however, also our right to wonder, and indeed at least pose the question, even if we know that a response may be deferred or refused.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



G2G and the rest of you fine gentleman; 

I am not trying to be intentionally sketchy. I am sorry for that, but a lot of these questions require vast amounts of research to correctly answer.

Now I'll make a deal, that ill do my best to hold to. I will answer these questions, except those that are to do with my family and those I feel are blatantly insulting.

but please accept links. I can not hope to answer them all correctly from my own written responses. The question about my opinion on verses of the Quran would take untold hours to answer... so I posted a link to an authentic tafsir.

If you wish for me to address this brutal murder of a child I will. Just give me time. I work 5-6 days a week 10-12 hours per shift, I hit the gym 4-5 days a week for a hour and then I need time for my wife and two kids. 

So please forgive me guys. but there is only one of me

Abdullah


----------



## Good2Golf

Abdullah, fair enough.  I have not seen, however, any links that substantively address the chasm that appears between a religion and of a culture, particularly in the case of the Sharia.

Regards,
G2G


----------



## AbdullahD

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Abdullah, fair enough.  I have not seen, however, any links that substantively address the chasm that appears between a religion and of a culture, particularly in the case of the Sharia.
> 
> Regards,
> G2G



That is good, hereunder is my response.

Islam and Culture (any culture) are not incompatible, a person can practice his culture as long as it doesnt contradict the laws of the Sharia. So my Wife and I are both reverts (also 3 and 4 generation Canadians respectively.. actually I may be 5th gen I forget), we both practice Canadian Culture and Islam happily and with no Qualms. We just opt out of the things that the Sharia does not allow us to do.

A lot of people get hung up on their respective culture... i.e treating Hijab as a uniform instead of guidelines. A lot of Muslims think hijab is salwar kameez and scarf.... whereas my wife practices hijab as the guidelines of how to dress... so she wears baggy pants and a hoody.

I go hunting, I eat steak, I wear jeans etc etc etc and I feel like I am following the Sharia 100%.

A link to a more intelligent explanation;
http://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=447&CategoryID=6

Now regarding the brutal Murder of this innocent child by these demented fools (any person who murders a child especially there own automatically earns my hate, if I need to be warned for this language I accept full responsibility for it). This is clearly forbidden in Islam, these guys have a demented and twisted culture that allows for such atrocious acts.

Fatawa saying honor killings are not allowed;
http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/18642

I have a fatawa that I requested personally, that shows injunctions of the sharia can not be inforced outside of Dar-Al-Islam as well. I can quote it in full if you guys dont believe me, but it is about inheritance so its a lot of reading for just one aspect.

I was looking for something else but this  shows that even if a person murdered his children before Islam he had to pay for those sins.
http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/28213

So killing your children over some petty honor thing is forbidden, forcing people to follow the injunctions of the Sharia outside dar al islam is not allowed, etc. So i stick by my position this guy was an utter fool brutally murdering his child. 

Also a little link on how Muslims should raise their kids.
https://islamqa.info/en/215167

Now I believe that addresses all outstanding questions.... I hope.

Abdullah

Modified to add this link regarding this particular case.
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/12/12/the-hijab-story-tragic-murder-of-aqsa-parvez/


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I am sorry Abdullah, and apologize in advance, but I just saw that today and couldn't resist:



Though, I have to admit, it also emphasizes your point (which I have acknowledged before), that there are not one but many Islam, as it appears to have been one of the most schismatic religion ever - after all the first schism happened right after the death of the prophet, and had to do with his succession. That Shi'a v. Sunn'i schism is still with us today, amongst a few others that have occurred since. The main point being here that there are many different interpretation of the will of Allah in the various islamic faiths.

I am just glad you, yourself seem to be from one of the "Meccan" interpretation that sees "jihad" as an inner struggle rather than a war on the infidels.


----------



## AbdullahD

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I am sorry Abdullah, and apologize in advance, but I just saw that today and couldn't resist:
> 
> 
> 
> Though, I have to admit, it also emphasizes your point (which I have acknowledged before), that there are not one but many Islam, as it appears to have been one of the most schismatic religion ever - after all the first schism happened right after the death of the prophet, and had to do with his succession. That Shi'a v. Sunn'i schism is still with us today, amongst a few others that have occurred since. The main point being here that there are many different interpretation of the will of Allah in the various islamic faiths.
> 
> I am just glad you, yourself seem to be from one of the "Meccan" interpretation that sees "jihad" as an inner struggle rather than a war on the infidels.



A joke is a joke, if it is done not intending to hurt a person. Then that person should take that into consideration. 

Also... for crying out loud I'm on a Canadian Army web forum.... if I can't take a little hazing... how will I live through BMQ?

I agree, there are major splits in Islam. But it is what it is, if there weren't.... we wouldnt have daesh or the taliban etc.

The Christian splits did tend to start around the first council of Nicaea (spelling). But then again they didnt have a state to pass on either...


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]

Now I'll make a deal, that ill do my best to hold to. I will answer these questions, except those that are to do with my family and those I feel are blatantly insulting.

but please accept links. I can not hope to answer them all correctly from my own written responses. The question about my opinion on verses of the Quran would take untold hours to answer... so I posted a link to an authentic tafsir.

[/quote]

Abdullah I respect and acknowledge the effort you are clearly putting into posting these links but I'll be honest with you, they don't really mean that much to me. Chances are the authors of those links are not going to be my neighbor, you are.  You're interested in joining the Canadian Armed Forces which means you'll be in my community, wearing the uniform I wear, your kids will go to school with my kids, my kids will go to your house, you may even be my boss.  

Your personal opinion is worth 1000 links.  The reason I asked you a personal question about your family is because you represent Islam in Canada, not some article from some guy 10 years ago etc..

I think you as a poster lose credibility when you make a statement like Islam is a religion of peace and when someone gives you 150+ examples of how it's not, you don't have an opinion. And yet you post links which I assume in your opinion, are relevant.  It feels like you want to politely avoid the hard, relevant questions and just send people to various links.


Speaking about links, from one of the links you provided.


> Flog those who accuse any of the chaste women (of committing adultery), but fail to backup (their charges) with four eyewitnesses -- flog them with eighty lashes, and thereafter do not accept their testimony ever again. Surely, they are the wicked ones. (Quran 24:4)


We still see the archaic requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a crime.   It's from this practice of 4 witnesses that we read about a woman being gang raped then herself punished because she made an accusation without 4 witnesses to back her up.


We can argue about what's written in the Bible and Quran all day long but in my opinion that stuff is much less relevant than how people today, in 2016, act on what's written. How they understand it,what they take away from it and especially how they apply it to their lives today. 
One of the major problems with Islam is that so many followers, "every day" people,*still* take all that crazy stuff literally.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/shafia-parents-and-son-convicted-in-honour-killing-of-four-family-members-seek-new-trial


> A Montreal father, mother and son convicted nearly four years ago of murdering four other family members in an honour killing argue,
> ///
> The sensational three-month long trial heard that Shafia was enraged because he felt his teenage daughters had violated cultural rules requiring sexual modesty, they were disobedient and the two eldest girls had boyfriends. Rona wanted a divorce and supported the girls in their pursuit of western lifestyles.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Abdullah I respect and acknowledge the effort you are clearly putting into posting these links but I'll be honest with you, they don't really mean that much to me. Chances are the authors of those links are not going to be my neighbor, you are.  You're interested in joining the Canadian Armed Forces which means you'll be in my community, wearing the uniform I wear, your kids will go to school with my kids, my kids will go to your house, you may even be my boss.
> 
> Your personal opinion is worth 1000 links.  The reason I asked you a personal question about your family is because you represent Islam in Canada, not some article from some guy 10 years ago etc..
> 
> I think you as a poster lose credibility when you make a statement like Islam is a religion of peace and when someone gives you 150+ examples of how it's not, you don't have an opinion. And yet you post links which I assume in your opinion, are relevant.  It feels like you want to politely avoid the hard, relevant questions and just send people to various links.
> 
> 
> Speaking about links, from one of the links you provided.We still see the archaic requirement of 4 witnesses to prove a crime.   It's from this practice of 4 witnesses that we read about a woman being gang raped then herself punished because she made an accusation without 4 witnesses to back her up.
> 
> 
> We can argue about what's written in the Bible and Quran all day long but in my opinion that stuff is much less relevant than how people today, in 2016, act on what's written. How they understand it,what they take away from it and especially how they apply it to their lives today.
> One of the major problems with Islam is that so many followers, "every day" people,*still* take all that crazy stuff literally.
> 
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/shafia-parents-and-son-convicted-in-honour-killing-of-four-family-members-seek-new-trial



I understand the point you are making,  I just feel and believe that what a specific person does in a very specific situation does not reflect what is to be expected by an entire group.

Now if a person brings up a situation from a decade ago, why is it not fair and relevant to post a link from a decade ago?

If I was to spend the time to personally type up answers to every Question that is asked, I would literally have to quit my job.

I do believe the links I have posted have been addressing the issues that have been brought up. You can safely assume my opinion is relatively close to the opinions stated in the links. I also again state that I do not expect you to agree with everything in Islam, I just hope that you will believe me when I say Muslims are not savages. Just the extremists are.

Now you want to see how people apply the Quran in this day and age, well im just one person. So I give links to many more people or maybe go to Mosques and ask the people how they act.

Also I missed the post where someone posted a 150+ issues with Islam and I ignored it. I honestly cant remember that post.

gtg got tripped
Abdullah

p.s I posted a link on honor killing already and I posted a link to an authentic tafsir for explanation of any Quran that is posted. I also let me know if you feel that I should debate the merits of 4 witnesses, IMO it is just a different legal system and not really needing to be argued. It is on pay with me debating first past the post vs proportional representation political systems... not that important imo


----------



## ArmyRick

I find the history of religions more interesting than anything however... like most of you I do not believe in Santa, easter Bunny or tooth fairy

I believe in real science (not "science" for profit), evolution, dinosaurs, darwinism, etc.

I can not say I am 100% aetheist because I still wish people a Merry Christmas and a Happy easter (I believ Jesus/Esa was real but what exactly he was...a different story)

When mankind becomes so wrapped up in religion and uses it as an excuse to impose their will on others, then you know something has gone terribly wrong.


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I find the history of religions more interesting than anything however... like most of *you I do not believe in Santa, easter Bunny or tooth fairy*



Excuse me?


----------



## AbdullahD

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I find the history of religions more interesting than anything however... like most of you I do not believe in Santa, easter Bunny or tooth fairy
> 
> I believe in real science (not "science" for profit), evolution, dinosaurs, darwinism, etc.
> 
> I can not say I am 100% aetheist because I still wish people a Merry Christmas and a Happy easter (I believ Jesus/Esa was real but what exactly he was...a different story)
> 
> When mankind becomes so wrapped up in religion and uses it as an excuse to impose their will on others, then you know something has gone terribly wrong.



Oh, we could have some fun talking about theistic evolution 

Muslims believe in theistic evolution, dinosaurs etc. we are not of the young earth crowd


----------



## a_majoor

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I find the history of religions more interesting than anything however... like most of you I do not believe in Santa, easter Bunny or tooth fairy
> 
> I believe in real science (not "science" for profit), evolution, dinosaurs, darwinism, etc.
> 
> I can not say I am 100% aetheist because I still wish people a Merry Christmas and a Happy easter (I believ Jesus/Esa was real but what exactly he was...a different story)
> 
> When mankind becomes so wrapped up in religion and uses it as an excuse to impose their will on others, then you know something has gone terribly wrong.



I am thinking that there actually isn't a conflict between science and religion.

Science is about answering "how" things work, while religion is about answering the question "why" things are the way they are. While obviously painting science and religion with the broadest of brushes, I don't see there being much area for conflict. Indeed, having a moral compass probably helps scientists behave in an ethical manner (the post in the global warming super thread which shows that only about 20% of scientific papers and experiments can be replicated _at all_ suggests that many scientists are not careful at the least or are very willing to stretch the truth).

We should also remember that many of the great scientists from the Age of Enlightenment were also very devout individuals and who used science as a means of discovering God's creation. 

Of course science, religion or virtually anything else can be perverted and used to justify the persuit of power, which I think is at the heart of this debate.


----------



## jollyjacktar

You mean like DaVinci?  Atheist.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I am thinking that there actually isn't a conflict between science and religion.
> 
> Science is about answering "how" things work, while religion is about answering the question "why" things are the way they are. While obviously painting science and religion with the broadest of brushes, I don't see there being much area for conflict. Indeed, having a moral compass probably helps scientists behave in an ethical manner (the post in the global warming super thread which shows that only about 20% of scientific papers and experiments can be replicated _at all_ suggests that many scientists are not careful at the least or are very willing to stretch the truth).
> 
> We should also remember that many of the great scientists from the Age of Enlightenment were also very devout individuals and who used science as a means of discovering God's creation.
> 
> Of course science, religion or virtually anything else can be perverted and used to justify the persuit of power, which I think is at the heart of this debate.



Very Beautifully said 

Abdullah


----------



## QV

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I am thinking that there actually isn't a conflict between science and religion.
> 
> Science is about answering "how" things work, while religion is about answering the question "why" things are the way they are. While obviously painting science and religion with the broadest of brushes, I don't see there being much area for conflict. Indeed, having a moral compass probably helps scientists behave in an ethical manner (the post in the global warming super thread which shows that only about 20% of scientific papers and experiments can be replicated _at all_ suggests that many scientists are not careful at the least or are very willing to stretch the truth).
> 
> We should also remember that many of the great scientists from the Age of Enlightenment were also very devout individuals and who used science as a means of discovering God's creation.
> 
> Of course science, religion or virtually anything else can be perverted and used to justify the persuit of power, which I think is at the heart of this debate.



Firstly I think folks such as evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens would disagree with you.  There are tons of great debates on YouTube featuring either, in case anyone is interested.  

Secondly, when you mention moral compass... If one needs the threat of eternal damnation in order to be good and moral, are those people really good at all?


----------



## a_majoor

Leonardo, although a very accomplished scientist and polymath, lived during the Italian Renaissance (not the Age of Enlightenment). While I have no definitive proof, Leonardo probably did have religious beliefs, but his interests in biology, dissection and science in general would have marked him as a heretic or worse in the eyes of the Catholic Church of that time. Based on the beauty and care of his religious iconography and paintings, I would strongly argue that Leonardo was certainly a very spiritual person.

WRT moral compass, Christianity, like most other religions has quite a few "carrots" as well as "sticks" to define moral behaviour. I'd rather believe that Luke 6:31 (doing unto others as you would have them do unto you) or 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (Love is always patient) are much stronger and more inspiring to people than the threat of eternal damnation.


----------



## jollyjacktar

QV said:
			
		

> Firstly I think folks such as evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens would disagree with you.  There are tons of great debates on YouTube featuring either, in case anyone is interested.
> 
> Secondly, when you mention moral compass... If one needs the threat of eternal damnation in order to be good and moral, are those people really good at all?



I enjoyed Bill Nye shredding the Noah story on YouTube.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I enjoyed Bill Nye shredding the Noah story on YouTube.



Can you link me? I believe the flood was a localized incident, did he shred the universal flood version? 

http://www.islam101.com/archeology/noah_ark.html


----------



## jollyjacktar

Ask and you shall receive.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpewEPHu24U


----------



## Colin Parkinson

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Can you link me? I believe the flood was a localized incident, did he shred the universal flood version?
> 
> http://www.islam101.com/archeology/noah_ark.html



The Noah story is likely based on a fairly large kernel of truth http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/climate-weather/storms/great-flood1.htm

As for the animal bit, having kids and trying to explain complicated things to them, I can see how a good story teller could weave a more interesting tale and fill in the gaps with made up bits. Of course it lends itself to this type of humour.







]


----------



## AbdullahD

UK Muslim leaders wage war on Daesh.

[Quote author=excerpt]Leading British Muslims have admitted a propaganda battle against Islamic State is now being fought in their own mosques and communities. While the Islamic State's ability to disseminate its propaganda online and through social media is well documented, faith leaders in the UK have said they are fighting the terror group's ideology on their own doorsteps.[/quote]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/british-muslim-leaders-wage-war-isis-propaganda-uk-mosques-homes-1554234?awt_l=7cbPv&awt_m=h5Gu2LJcJGbOvKU&utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rss


----------



## PuckChaser

Should have happened years ago, but good to see.


----------



## AbdullahD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Should have happened years ago, but good to see.



It did happen years ago, but the media attention has been scarce.

 Mufti Aasim and the BCMA is working with the RCMP in Surrey bc (I believe it is called CAVE the program I mean), 300 Islamic scholars just met in the USA to address this amongest other issues, Mufti Menk has been speaking out, Same with Mufti Abu Layth, Same with most  (i.e everyone i know of) of the worlds grand Muftis have been speaking out against this ideology. 

The effort of Tabligh and Dawah has many members who work with CSIS to fight extremism (that is from me personally cause 3 friends of mine have met with csis over extremist issues and it is common knowledge that csis talks to us because we tend to know everyone). Almost every scholar who is an Imam of a Mosque that I know of in BC meets with the rcmp and csis regularly. 

Ill try to post links to back this up if I get time to use google later on. I posted this one because people think our communities have been doing nothing. We are working hard against these evil ideologies, its just an uphill battle.

How far back are you thinking, I can go about 8-10 years I think. But if your thinking 20.... then im at a loss.

Abdullah


----------



## PuckChaser

What I'm thinking, is that we see thousands march to support questionable governments in Palestine, or anti-Israel rallies, but where's the massive "Islam is not terrorism" march down Younge Street or in Times Square? If the large masses of Muslims stood up shoulder to shoulder and be heard in a unified voice, the media would listen. You can't counter a narrative by staying silent, it's past the point where small meetings are going to change opinions.


----------



## AbdullahD

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> What I'm thinking, is that we see thousands march to support questionable governments in Palestine, or anti-Israel rallies, but where's the massive "Islam is not terrorism" march down Younge Street or in Times Square? If the large masses of Muslims stood up shoulder to shoulder and be heard in a unified voice, the media would listen. You can't counter a narrative by staying silent, it's past the point where small meetings are going to change opinions.



You are right, sort of. Have you heard of Tongi or Raiwind Ijtema? or the BC, Toronto, Canada Ijtema's? Tongi Ijtema, last I knew had more attendees then Haj. 

The effort of dawah and tabligh started more then a hundred years ago and holds these ijtemas annually that pull in millions of Muslims worldwide. They teach and preach and practice, non-Violent jihad i.e suppressing your desires as being the more important Jihad, they teach love and caring for Muslims and non-Muslims alike. they teach you that through self rectification the world becomes a better place. They teach things that make us targets for the extremists.... and yet my money is on the fact that you have likely never heard of these gatherings, it is because they do not attract the mainstream media for some reason.

 But, ask 10 random Muslims if they have heard about Tablighis or these Ijtemas or the door knockers, whatever they wish to call us and I can almost gaurantee one or more of the ten have. So if only Muslims know about a group of Muslims who are.
 combating this Muslim problem, isnt that what is needed? The media can help show that we are working on the issues to non-Muslims, but most Muslims know we are.

We are up against well funded ideologies, we know we are in a ideological war and we are fighting our hardest. It is hard to tell if we are winning or losing, but we are fighting and paying the price. the BC ijtema is on the 20th of May, last I checked. Feel free to come check it out many Islamic scholars will be there, you can discuss with them too.

btw Tongi ijtema is held in dhaka bangladesh. Raiwind is held in Pakistan. I hope this helped.

Abdullah

p.s I do understand you said narrative,  but these gatherings work to change that in a way. If we change how Muslims act, that will correct the narrative eventually.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If people see enough people standing up to them, then they to will stand. Not all because quietly many agree with the nutbars, but would not raise a fist themselves. Real change in Islam is likely to come from the west, where people who think and act differently don’t have to always fear for their lives. These people will help and support the people in the countries with higher risk and give them hope and support to sustain them in the fight. We as in the west need to get off our collective butts and push the Gulf states to stop funding the nutbars. We also need to deal with the apologists in the west who give cover to the radicals and allow them to spread their crap. What the apologists don’t realize is that by giving the radicals a pass, you are seriously harming the efforts of the modernists and literally placing their lives at risk.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Speaking of Muslims standing up against radicalism. I haven't looked at what he has said, but if it pisses off ISIS that good for me.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/04/13/isis-makes-threat-against-toronto-imam


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the 22 March 2016 Brussels Attacks,

Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures Used in the 22 March 2016 Brussels Attacks
https://info.publicintelligence.net/DHS-FBI-NCTC-BrusselsAttacks.pdf
This Joint Intelligence Bulletin (JIB) is intended to provide a review of the tactics, techniques, and procedures demonstrated by the perpetrators of the 22 March 2016 attacks in Brussels, Belgium.


----------



## George Wallace

I hope that Trudeau does not permit this scumbag to keep his Citizenship, although in all probability he likely will:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> ‘Trick them, kill them’: Former Ottawa imam issues call to arms after son killed in Libya
> The National Post
> Stewart Bell
> Tuesday, Mar. 8, 2016
> 
> TORONTO—A former Ottawa imam has issued a fiery call to arms to Libyans after his son, raised in the Canadian capital, was killed in clashes in Benghazi, where Islamist militias are battling elements of the Libyan military.
> 
> 
> “Allah break the backs of the tyrants and the oppressors and the unjust and those nations of the world that are with them,” Abdu Albasset Egwilla said. “Allah they have gathered against us and are scheming against us, so scheme against them.
> 
> “Trick them, kill them.”
> 
> In a televised speech to a gathering in Tripoli, he acknowledged the death of his son, Owais Egwilla, and thanked “all of those who were with him in the battlefield,” according to a translation by the SITE Intelligence Group.
> 
> “Our youth are waging battles in the Libyan east, youth, men who were honest in what they promised Allah. And so some of them died, and others are waiting. We are waiting for martyrdom in the name of Allah. And by Allah this is our path until we push back evil. We will not stop nor resign.”
> 
> The cleric, who preached at an Ottawa mosque before returning to Libya, was the subject of a Canadian intelligence report released last year that said he had appeared in an August 2014 video urging Libyan Islamist fighters to “take part in jihad.”
> 
> He seemed to do the same in his latest speech, calling the Libyan conflict a battle “against the people of evil” and asking, “Allah give our mujahedin (fighters) angels.” He said he supported national unity “but one that relies on Allah’s book.”
> 
> The Libya Herald online daily called him “a known hardliner” and a director of the Tripoli office of the ministry of religious endowments. It said the death of his son had “reignited concern about extremist influence in the ministry.”
> 
> His son had reportedly joined a Benghazi militia and was badly injured last week by forces loyal to Gen. Khalida Haftar, a Gaddafi-era soldier. A spokesman for a Libyan-Canadian group said Egwilla was in a building struck by a barrel bomb.
> 
> A notice posted on a Facebook page linked to the Shura Council of Benghazi Revolutionaries said Egwilla and another man had died “after a battle they waged against a group from the disbelieving forces,” according to SITE.
> 
> The death was raised at Monday’s sitting of the Senate National Security and Defence Committee, where Canadian Security Intelligence Service director Michel Coulombe testified about the 180 extremists who had left Canada to take part in terrorism.
> 
> Speaking to reporters later, he would not confirm the killing. “I’m not saying that I doubt this person is dead,” he said. “What I’ve said and we’ve seen this a number of times, people are reported as being killed, just to resurface two, three, four weeks, a month later on Twitter or Facebook.”
> 
> Egwilla was fighting with the Omar Mukhtar Brigade, which is part of the Benghazi Shura Council, the Libya Herald reported. On Facebook, he had posted messages about jihad as well as the propaganda of the Syrian branch of al-Qaida.
> 
> But Khaled Misellati, a member of the Canadian Libyan Community Association’s board of trustees, said Egwilla was not an extremist. “He practically grew up here in Ottawa,” he said. He moved to Libya after finishing high school.
> 
> Two years ago, he returned to Ottawa to study. But he once again went back to Libya, where a civil war has been underway since 2014 as factions vie for power in the vacuum created by the death of longtime dictator Col. Muammar Gaddafi.
> 
> With files from the Canadian Press



Photos on LINK


----------



## PuckChaser

Trudeau will probably pay for his flight back to Canada, because it's 2016.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Glad his scumbag kid got whacked.  Hopefully this dickhead will join him.


----------



## The Bread Guy

leroi said:
			
		

> A followup on Hassan Diab who, it appears, has been fired from Carleton University for his connection to terrorism:
> 
> Carleton Professors Call for Reinstatement of Colleague Accused of Bombing Paris Synagogue
> 
> The Ottawa Citizen (Reproduced in Accordance with the _Fair Dealing_ Provision of the _Copyright __Act_.)
> August 1, 2009
> Joanne Laucius
> 
> http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Carleton+professors+call+reinstatement+colleague+accused+bombing+Paris+synagogue/1850749/story.html
> 
> Sociology and anthropology professors are demanding that Carleton University reinstate accused terrorist and fellow lecturer Hassan Diab. “The senior administration has a chance to do the right thing. It’s never too late,” said Peter Gose, chairman of the department at the university.
> 
> The Lebanese-born Diab, who is now a Canadian citizen, is accused in France of killing four people and injuring dozens more in the 1980 bombing of a Paris synagogue. He faces an extradition hearing in January and is under virtual house arrest, but may leave to work. Diab was teaching a summer course this week when he learned he was terminated.
> 
> Gose said university president Roseann Runte had asked for a meeting with the department on Thursday afternoon, two days after Diab was fired. Of the 42 academics permanently employed in the department, 22 showed up for the meeting, including Diab’s common-law wife, Rania Tfaily. But Runte did not appear.
> 
> The professors then drafted the resolution, which said the university ignored its own procedures by terminating Diab, unanimously called for his reinstatement and supported Gose and John Osborne, the dean of the department of arts and social science, for assigning teaching duties to Diab.
> 
> “We have to say that our relationship is in bad shape,” said Gose. “The department is solidly behind the idea that he should not have been dismissed.” Gose said he also takes issue with the way the course Diab was teaching was assigned to another faculty member without consultation. “That’s not the way it’s supposed to be done. It’s supposed to be done by the department. It’s an area of the university we manage,” said Gose.
> 
> Diab must wear an electronic monitoring bracelet, report regularly to the RCMP and can’t own a cellphone. Under his bail conditions, Diab must live with Tfaily in her Ottawa home. He may leave for work and legal and medical appointments, but only if accompanied by Tfaily or one of the four other people who put up $250,000 in combined bail, including Gose. “The judge said he was not an immediate threat to anyone,” said Gose ...


The very latest:  back in France, and out of jail under house arrest ...


> In a surprise move, a French judge has ordered that Ottawa academic Hassan Diab be released from jail while an investigation into his alleged involvement in a 1980 Paris terrorist attack continues.
> 
> But prosecutors, apparently intent on seeing Diab back behind bars, have filed an appeal that is due to be heard early next week.
> 
> The Lebanese-born Canadian was released late Saturday and has communicated numerous times via Skype with his wife Rania Tfaily and their two young children – Jena, 3, and 16-month-old son Jad.
> 
> After what amounted to house arrest in Ottawa and incarceration for the past 18 months in Paris, Tfaily says her husband has been feeling disoriented ...


Niiiiiiiiiiiice -- needless to say, Jewish groups are underwhelmed ...


----------



## tomahawk6

Couldnt find a thread about Egypt Air.Aviation sources are saying there was smoke in the aircraft in the toilet and nearby avionics bay.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4987fb09&opt=0

Data available

On May 20th 2016 The Aviation Herald received information from three independent channels, that ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) messages with following content were received from the aircraft:

00:26Z 3044 ANTI ICE R WINDOW
00:26Z 561200 R SLIDING WINDOW SENSOR
00:26Z 2600 SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE
00:27Z 2600 AVIONICS SMOKE
00:28Z 561100 R FIXED WINDOW SENSOR
00:29Z 2200 AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT
00:29Z 2700 F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT
no further ACARS messages were received


----------



## CougarKing

The family claims they haven't heard from the notorious older brother for years... Or so they say. 

Yahoo Sports



> *Brussels suicide bomber's brother headed to Rio Olympics*
> Jay Busbee By Jay Busbee
> 19 hours ago
> 
> A Belgian man whose older brother was one of the Brussels suicide bombers is headed to Rio as a taekwondo competitor.
> 
> *Mourad Laachraoui, the younger brother of bomber Najim Laachraoui, won gold in the European Taekwondo Championships. He will compete in Rio representing Belgium.*
> 
> Mourad, along with other members of his family, said they had not heard from Najim for several years prior to the suicide bombing at Zaventem Aiport on March 22. A second bomb went off at the Maelbeek Rail Station; a total of 32 people were killed in the attacks. Najim Laachraoui was also connected to the Paris terrorist attacks from last year.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## AbdullahD

Posting this video, because it seems an appropriate place.

Discussion includes extremists and how we are supposed to deal with them. It is also an explanation on why it is permitted and encouraged to fight daesh.

There are Muslims who are viewing this thread and this may be good for them too.

https://youtu.be/ozxC1TbGZQ0

Abdullah

p.s it was forwarded to me and I felt like it could be educational here showing we should be fighting against daesh as a unified front.


----------



## CougarKing

This was described on CNN as the worst shooting in US history with more people killed than in the Virginia Tech campus shootings a few years ago.

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/shooting-florida-nightclub-people-injured-police-082136181.html



> *Fifty dead at Florida gay club in America's worst mass shooting*
> By: Agence France-Presse
> June 12, 2016 6:52 PM
> 
> ORLANDO, Florida - (UPDATE3, 11:33 p.m.) Fifty people died and another 53 were injured early Sunday when a heavily-armed gunman opened fire and seized hostages at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, police said, in the worst mass shooting in US history.
> 
> Terrified survivors -- who moments before were laughing and dancing with friends -- described how the gunman named by media as *a US citizen of Afghan descent* raked the club with bullets, prompting a police SWAT team to storm the venue.
> 
> "We have cleared the building, and it is with great sadness that I share we have not 20, but 50 casualties in addition to the shooter," Mayor Buddy Dyer told a mid-morning news briefing in Orlando, more than doubling the previously given death toll.
> 
> "There are another 53 that are hospitalized."
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## PuckChaser

Just because the guy is of Afghan descent, doesn't mean he's an Islamic terrorist. Lets wait until the investigation comes out with a motive. I'm all for calling a spade a spade if the evidence supports it, but for all we know the guy could be a crackpot who hates gay people with no religious undertones.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Photos of the perp at link below.  FBI investigating possible connections to Islamic Extremism, had been on Law Enforcement radar for some time.  I smell smoke...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637414/Everyone-running-Gunman-bursts-gay-nightclub-Florida-shoots-20-people-taking-hostages.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just because the guy is of Afghan descent, doesn't mean he's an Islamic terrorist. Lets wait until the investigation comes out with a motive. I'm all for calling a spade a spade if the evidence supports it, but for all we know the guy could be a crackpot who hates gay people with no religious undertones.



Pro:  _"The FBI investigated Orlando nightclub shooting suspect Omar Mateen for possibly having ties or being a sympathizer to Islamic extremism, according to a law enforcement official and a U.S. official. There were two cases opened on Mateen in the past, the law enforcement official told CNN. The investigations didn't find evidence to charge him with anything, the officials said."_
Con:  _"Mateen's father Mir Seddique told NBC News that the incident had nothing to do with religion, but may have been triggered by the sight of a gay couple kissing in Miami."_
Pro:  _"(California congressman Adam Schiff) who serves as top Democrat on the House Select Committee on Intelligence, told CNN: 'What I've heard from the Department of Homeland Security this morning is that, according to local police, he made a pledge of allegiance to ISIL (ISIS).' "_
Both ways:  _"Orlando gay club gunman identified as Omar Mateen, a U.S. citizen who reportedly pledged to ISIS in 911 call before shooting; family says he was abusive and homophobic "_
*EARLY REPORT CAVEATS* apply, of course, but if the bits in yellow prove to be correct (notwithstanding the bit in orange), and we apply the rubric of other attacks (mental illness or not, if there's a religious component - declarations of allegiance and/or extremist Muslim material linked to suspect), it's more terrorist than homophobic killer (although neither category is mutually exclusive).


----------



## Altair

It's brilliant in its simplicity and effectiveness. Can't crack/infiltrate a cell of one person and in America it's crap simple to get a gun capable of inflicting mass casualties. 

No links to or from the mother organization but a propoganda coup when it happens. 

I honestly don't know how a western nations fights back against this. France has thousands of troops pratorling the streets but I don't know if that's the answer. If someone like this notices armed troops they probably just go for a softer target.

Shitty times.


----------



## mariomike

Altair said:
			
		

> I honestly don't know how a western nations fights back against this.



Or how to prepare? Toronto is a larger city than Orlando. The worst mass shooting in our history killed two people and injured 22 others, and was enough for the City to declare a State of Emergency. 

Orlando's emergency services must have been overwhelmed. I've seen, "Images of wounded being carried by civilians & loaded into pickup trucks."


----------



## Altair

mariomike said:
			
		

> Or how to prepare? Toronto is a larger city than Orlando. The worst mass shooting in our history killed two people and injured 22 others and was enough for the City to declare a State of Emergency.
> 
> Orlando's emergency services must have been overwhelmed. I've seen, "Images of wounded being carried by civilians & loaded into pickup trucks."


If someone went into a Montreal,  Toronto,  Vancouver nightclub with an automatic weapon in close quarters with hundreds of people, how much are  preparations going to help those inside?

With the bataclan and this Orlando attack, it's looking like that within minutes it's going to be a mass causality event.

In Canada we have been "lucky" that our attackers have been limited to automobiles,  a model 94 and a knife.


----------



## PuckChaser

Altair said:
			
		

> in America it's crap simple to get a gun capable of inflicting mass casualties.



Its not a gun problem. He had an alleged suicide vest as well. One of the worst terrorist attacks in US history was a Ryder truck full of ANFO. Fertilizer and diesel fuel. Crazy people who want to kill people will find a way to do it, regardless of how many laws are in the way. Criminals don't worry about breaking laws...

Wholeheartedly concur with the lone actor comment. Extremely difficult to get, especially in the post-Snowden era where everyone is scared of the NSA listening to them complain about who's hotter, Kim Kardashian or Taylor Swift, instead of whether or not they can do their jobs.

Ultimately, the only way to stop ISIL inspired attacks is to stop ISIL. The only way we're doing that is boots on the ground and hunting them, whether its a lot of guys in black pyjamas and NVGs, or full battlegroups rolling through terrorist ground. Mali, Libya, Syria, Iraq all need to be cleared out.

Caught the second post about preparation while I was typing above: One or 2 guys with CCW who were properly trained and licensed could have mitigated some of the casualties. At what point do we stop thinking safe zones for guns work, and move to a proactive stance with CCW? Terrorists will always target the sheep, soft targets when the sheepdogs aren't around. If they don't know who's a sheepdog in the flock, they're rolling the dice.


----------



## Altair

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its not a gun problem. He had an alleged suicide vest as well. One of the worst terrorist attacks in US history was a Ryder truck full of ANFO. Fertilizer and diesel fuel. Crazy people who want to kill people will find a way to do it, regardless of how many laws are in the way. Criminals don't worry about breaking laws...
> 
> Wholeheartedly concur with the lone actor comment. Extremely difficult to get, especially in the post-Snowden era where everyone is scared of the NSA listening to them complain about who's hotter, Kim Kardashian or Taylor Swift, instead of whether or not they can do their jobs.
> 
> Ultimately, the only way to stop ISIL inspired attacks is to stop ISIL. The only way we're doing that is boots on the ground and hunting them, whether its a lot of guys in black pyjamas and NVGs, or full battlegroups rolling through terrorist ground. Mali, Libya, Syria, Iraq all need to be cleared out.
> 
> Caught the second post about preparation while I was typing above: One or 2 guys with CCW who were properly trained and licensed could have mitigated some of the casualties. At what point do we stop thinking safe zones for guns work, and move to a proactive stance with CCW? Terrorists will always target the sheep, soft targets when the sheepdogs aren't around. If they don't know who's a sheepdog in the flock, they're rolling the dice.


This guy was a security guard, clearly  the sheepdog can turn.

And how many of these people need to around to be effective? Every mall, every club, every restaurant, every bus?

I'm not saying you're wrong. I saying it's a very difficult situation with no simple answer


----------



## PuckChaser

Absolutely, and Florida does have CCW permits available for its residents (and non-residents as well). The delicate balance is keeping it from being a police state, but also having security in the forefront of people's minds and visible to the regular public.


----------



## AbdullahD

Altair said:
			
		

> This guy was a security guard, clearly  the sheepdog can turn.
> 
> And how many of these people need to around to be effective? Every mall, every club, every restaurant, every bus?
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong. I saying it's a very difficult situation with no simple answer



I am going to take issue with one thing. The comment about the sheep dog turning, in my opinion it implies these fools are less intelligent then they are.

If a person was going to conduct a premeditated mass murder, it would make sense to obtain all training possible. I suspect this fool was radicalized for a fairly long time period.

He could have used his training to understand how the security industry works in order to be the most effective.

I just can't think he snapped one day and decided to shoot up a club and was so effective, he has been on the radar for a while, they just had nothing to hold him on. So I think he was prepping himself.

Now if he was really a "sheep dog" person, then I would think he would have been more critical of extremists ideologies. 

I am not sure if I'm making sense, but I hope you get it.

May the victims have peace and may the perpetrator rest in hell. 

Abdullah


----------



## mariomike

Man arrested in California was planning attack on gay pride parade, police say 
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/06/12/man-arrested-in-california-was-planning-attack-on-gay-pride-parade-police-say.html
The arrest, in which police found three assault rifles and chemical explosives, came just hours after the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando. 

The LA Pride event continued as usual, albeit with increased security.

Toronto police to boost Pride security in wake of Florida shooting
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-pride-toronto-shooting-1.3631707
Police Chief Mark Saunders tweeted Sunday that local officers are "actively reassessing" security plans for the city's month-long Pride events, a sentiment echoed by Pride Toronto who issued a statement saying it would "continue to work with our full security team" throughout the festival.

Pride organizers and police plan to meet Monday morning to review security plans for the rest of the month's celebrations. The chief has also committed to posting more officers near the Village and areas where events will be happening, Pride's executive director Mathieu Chantelois said.

"Main events of Pride Week include the Dyke March and the Pride parade. Although a definitive count of attendees cannot be determined, estimates in recent years have ranged from 500,000 to over one million for the entire week, and about 100,000 for the parade itself. The festival is often touted as being one of the largest cultural festivals in North America and the 22 city blocks that make up the festival site is closed to vehicular traffic."


----------



## a_majoor

Sadly the usual media and government suspects have gone down the same old "gun control" track, rather than looking at the man and the motivations that led him to commit this act.

Banning guns will hardly stop the damage these people can do. Some of Canada's worst mass murders were carried out with explosives (Air India, 329 people) or fire (Gargantua nightclub in 1975, 13 dead) rather than firearms. We need to say openly what is happening, who is responsible and take effective action against the people who call for this sort of murderous activity against the innocent.


----------



## AbdullahD

Expanding on this due to chatting with a friend and we covered the issue for whether he really was an dash operative or not.

Link first;
http://m.hindustantimes.com/world/orlando-shooter-named-as-omar-mateen-us-citizen-of-afghan-descent-report/story-7Wp9eLVwNliuGoBYv0pP3I.html

He put forward that his father's narrative was that his son was not influenced by extremist ideologies, but by hatred of homosexuals.

So I am curious how sound of an argument could be made that this guy was mentally unstable and hated homosexuals, then after deciding to shoot up the club he decided to call into 911 because he no longer cared.

He obviously knew he was not going to get out of it alive and potentially just wanted to put another spin on it. It is a mental health issue, because no sane person thinks shooting up clubs solves issues, but what the secondary issue is is something else, was it perceived oppression, hatred of gays or radicalization etc

Abdullah


----------



## Nudibranch

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> if the bits in yellow prove to be correct (notwithstanding the bit in orange), and we apply the rubric of other attacks (mental illness or not, if there's a religious component - declarations of allegiance and/or extremist Muslim material linked to suspect), it's more terrorist than homophobic killer (although neither category is mutually exclusive).



Depends. Could be a homophobic killer seeking some kind of twisted glory by claiming the extremist religious connection, with the driver being the homophobia and the religious extremism a costume of sorts. 
That said, I'm not taking daddy's statement at face value, and am waiting on what the investigation turns up.


----------



## Loachman

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Some of Canada's worst mass murders were carried out with explosives (Air India, 329 people) or fire (Gargantua nightclub in 1975, 13 dead) rather than firearms.



The worst mass murder that ever took place completely on Canadian soil was the Blue Bird Cafe nightclub fire in Montreal in September 1972, wherein 37 people were killed by three drunks using gasoline and a match.

There is an infinite number of ways to commit mass murder. Banning things will never stop those intent on killing and maiming. "Gun control" is a sick joke.

And this was another case of the murderous loser being known to police, yet still able to commit murder.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Altair]
This guy was a security guard, clearly  the sheepdog can turn.


[/quote]

I would hardly say being a security guard automatically constitutes someone as being a 'sheepdog'. 




Murdering people because of religious based views is extremism whether he subscribed to _ OBL monthly _ or not.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Another interesting ingredient in the stew that was this guy's motivation/background ...
_*"Orlando shooter's father is running for president of Afghanistan, has backed the Taliban, hosts talk show in California and visits the corridors of power in DC"*_


----------



## jollyjacktar

Apparently daddy never took the kid back to the home country for a Thursday night visit if Orlando set him off.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Apparently daddy never took the kid back to the home country for a Thursday night visit if Orlando set him off.


Tough crowd ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

Just say'n...


----------



## The Bread Guy

More grist for the mill, from an imam & the ex-wife ...


> ... Mateen was the son of an Afghan immigrant who had a talk show in the United States, the nature of which was not entirely clear: A former Afghan official said the program was pro-Taliban and a former colleague said it was enthusiastically pro-American.
> 
> He attended evening prayer services at the city's Islamic Center three to four times a week, most recently with his young son, said Imam Syed Shafeeq Rahman. Although he was not very social, he also showed no signs of violence, Rahman said. He said he last saw Mateen on Friday.
> 
> "When he finished prayer he would just leave," Rahman told The Associated Press. "He would not socialize with anybody. He would be quiet. He would be very peaceful."
> 
> He was also bipolar, Mateen's ex-wife, Sitora Yusufiy, told reporters in Boulder, Colorado.
> 
> "He was mentally unstable and mentally ill," Yusufiy said. Although records show the couple didn't divorce for two years after the marriage, Yusiufiy said she was actually only with Mateen for four months because he was abusive. She said he would not let her speak to her family and that family members had to come and literally pull her out of his arms ...


----------



## a_majoor

Latest updates:

http://heatst.com/politics/terror-in-orlando-50-dead-53-wounded-in-florida-nightclub-nightmare/?mod=sm_tw_post



> *UPDATES: Terror in Orlando: 50 Dead, 53 Wounded in Florida Nightclub Nightmare*
> By Emily Zanotti | 4:58 am, June 13, 2016
> UPDATE, 5:00 AM:
> 
> Images of those killed by the gunman – some of whose names were published by the city – are beginning to surface and be widely reproduced:
> 
> A sobering update from the Associated Press told how authorities at the Pulse nightclub were still removing dozens of bodies in the small hours of Monday morning.
> 
> UPDATE, 11:00 PM:
> 
> Police are now saying that Omar Mateen has ties to radical Mulim leader, Marcus Dwayne Robertson. Mateen took online classes and interacted with Robertson through Robertson’s Fundamental Islamic Knowledge Seminary, based in Orlando.
> 
> The FBI reportedly contacted Robertson and several of his associates for questioning Sunday afternoon. Robertson’s attorney failed to confirm whether his client was associated with the ongoing investigation.
> 
> The gunman also attended the Islamic Center of Fort Pierce; he was seen there two days before Sunday’s attack, in the company of Imam Shafiq Rahman. The Islamic Center is reportedly associated with the American-born suicide bomber, Monar abu Salha, who was discovered in Syria several years ago. According to Fox News, it was Mateen’s association with abu Salha that led the FBI to question him in 2013.
> 
> UPDATE, 10:30 PM:
> 
> Stories are now emerging from the survivors of this morning’s terrorist attack.
> 
> Survivors told ABC News that the shooter asked club goers their race before opening fire and said that America “needs to stop bombing ISIS.” Several clubgoers describe being trapped in the club and unable to leave as the gunman moved through the club.
> 
> 
> Witnesses also describe a chaotic triage situation in the club’s parking lot, as emergency response teams tried to isolate the most seriously injured.
> 
> UPDATE, 5:15 PM:
> 
> The city or Orlando is now releasing the names of victims as families are being notified.
> 
> The ATF has also released a statement that the guns used in today’s terrorist attack were purchased legally.
> 
> 
> Omar Mateen was a licensed security guard working for a Federal contractor. He had the appropriate permits and passed a background check.
> 
> UPDATE, 4:25 PM:
> 
> Donald Trump has called on President Obama to “resign in disgrace” if he won’t publicly link the shooting to Islamic terrorism.
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE, 3:20pm:
> 
> The FBI is now going into greater details about Omar Mateen’s background and terror ties.
> 
> 
> 
> ISIS has also claimed responsibility for the attacks but there is still no evidence to support a claim that Mateen coordinated with a terrorist network.
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE, 2:00pm:
> 
> President Obama has spoken to the nation, confirming that today’s events in Orlando were an act of terror. He assured Orlando authorities that the will receive all necessary resources.
> 
> UPDATE, 1:45pm:
> 
> Authorities have arrested a suspect with an “arsenal” reportedly intending to disrupt an LA gay pride event. We do not know whether this incident is related to Orlando.
> 
> UPDATE, 1:30pm:
> 
> National media is now reporting that the shooter called authorities to pledge allegiance to ISIS before the attack.
> 
> 
> Local and Federal authorities are now searching the shooters apartment.
> 
> ###
> 
> A young American gunman, armed with multiple weapons and what police are terming “devices”, left at least 50 dead and 53 wounded in a horrific attack on Pure, a prominent LGBT nightclub in Orlando, Florida this morning. The shooter, whom the FBI has identified as Omar Mateen, opened fire around 2 am, and was eventually killed in a shootout with the Orlando Police’s SWAT team about three hours later.
> 
> This is a developing story with enormous implications not only for the loved ones of those murdered and wounded — but also across the political and cultural spectra.   Conversations are already raging across social media about terrorism, gay rights, gun rights, religion and, of course, how this tragedy could affect the Presidential election.
> 
> Police and FBI officials believe the act to be “terrorism”, but at this early point it appears to be the work of an American citizen with no clear links to international terror networks beyond general inspiration. Officials are briefing reporters every two hours.
> 
> Our thoughts are with the families and friends of the victims and with the Orlando community.
> 
> What We Know:
> 
> At least 50 people are dead and 53 injured in an attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida. Eyewitness accounts are emerging.
> 
> This is already being considered the worst mass shooting in US history.
> 
> Officers shot and killed the suspect who they say was named Omar Mateen. One officer was injured.
> 
> Early reports indicate that the shooter had been known to the FBI as someone with terrorist sympathies.
> 
> The shooter had received weapons training and was armed with several guns and an “explosive device”.
> 
> Officials are calling the incident “terrorism”, but have yet to say whether or not the shooter had any real connections to an international terrorist organization.
> 
> The gunman’s father told NBC News in a statement that his son did not have any ties to terrorism but had been “angry” since seeing two men kissing in Miami several months ago.


----------



## tomahawk6

Its not good for the islamic terror deniers.No question in my mind that both the shooter and the dad were radicalized to one degree or another.Or to be a good muslim all you have to do is kill non-believers according to the Quran.You arent a radical you are main stream.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html#/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html


----------



## Colin Parkinson

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> More grist for the mill, from an imam & the ex-wife ...



Which means they never filed a police report, because had they, he would have not gotten a CCW permit in Florida and a guy who was questioned by the FBI twice about terror links passes a FFL background check?


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Apparently daddy never took the kid back to the home country for a Thursday night visit if Orlando set him off.


Or an alternative theory (100% pure speculation pulled out of my ... hat ... for the purpose of debate/discussion/ :stirpot:  he may have ...


----------



## mariomike

Regarding Orlando,

"Medics delayed by suspicious device" They mistakenly thought the gunman had strapped explosives to the dead after a bomb robot sent back images of a battery part next to a body.

"Orlando first responders had to make their way through a 'cacophony of ringing unanswered cellphones' "

To locate survivors, the crew called out, "If you are alive, raise your hand."

If it was 2 AM, by that time some of the guests may have been pretty well lubricated or high. They say it took a while to get the dance music turned off and for guests to realize a massacre was in progress.

From reading about other nightclub disasters, ( And one place in particular that I remember from my youth that was a disaster waiting to happen, entirely thanks to a greedy management. ) 

I hope,

1) The joint wasn't over legal capacity with customers.

2 ) The emergency exits were up to code, well marked and usable.

Eyewitness says emergency exit door at Orlando nightclub shooting was being held shut from outside. Then his call gets dropped on national television.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=842_1465800800#DjB2YP36iPR7ifDq.99

I read that 9,000 counselors and therapists descended on New York City after 9/11.

Not sure how many are headed to Orlando,

Counselors used after 9/11 will be on hand to help in Orlando
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/how-first-resonders-in-the-orlando-shooting-deal-with-the-emotional-toll


----------



## Jarnhamar

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Its not good for the islamic terror deniers.No question in my mind that both the shooter and the dad were radicalized to one degree or another.* Or to be a good muslim all you have to do is kill non-believers according to the Quran.You arent a radical you are main stream.*
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html#/articles/2016/06/12/omar-mateen-id-d-as-orlando-killer.html



I think you nailed it.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Haven't had a chance to follow much.

Have Islamic leaders organized vigils of their followers in front of the club to make it clear that the actions were not representative of what they are teaching?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I think you nailed it.



Definitely....
http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/murder-in-the-bible/

https://islamqa.info/en/10923

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askmufti/45514

Anywho. Let's not do this here? Or do we have to?


----------



## AbdullahD

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Haven't had a chance to follow much.
> 
> Have Islamic leaders organized vigils of their followers in front of the club to make it clear that the actions were not representative of what they are teaching?



Vigils I am not sure about, but my feeds were full of scholars denouncing it. I can look around for Vigils if you want... but I am about to crash again. Working nights. So it may be quicker for you to Google it.


----------



## mariomike

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Have Islamic leaders organized vigils of their followers in front of the club to make it clear that the actions were not representative of what they are teaching?



City asks community to "hold off on vigils," citing strain on public safety resources 
http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2016/06/12/city-asks-community-to-hold-off-on-vigils-citing-strain-on-public-safety-resources
Central Florida's police officers, EMTs, medical professionals, firefighters and other first responders and emergency personnel have been stressed beyond belief in the past 48 hours, and they need some rest.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Have Islamic leaders organized vigils of their followers in front of the club to make it clear that the actions were not representative of what they are teaching?


At the club, not that I've heard of - likely because of what mariomike posted.  Spotted this with a quick Google-fu:  _" Later today (12 June), the Council of Sacramento Valley Islamic Organizations (COSVIO), an umbrella organization of Muslim organizations in the Sacramento Valley which the Sacramento Valley chapter of the Council on American Islamic is a member of, alongside The Sacramento LGBT Community Center, will hold a press conference and rally to condemn the deadly shooting spree at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida that left at least 50 people dead and another 53 injured ..."_


			
				Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Haven't had a chance to follow much.


How's this for a start?

_"The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), a prominent civil liberties & advocacy organization, categorically condemns the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida ..."_
_" The Islamic Center of America (ICA) strongly condemns the recent mass murder in Orlando Florida ..."_
_"The Ahmadiyya Muslim Youth Association (AMYA) - the male youth auxiliary of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community USA - conveys its condolences and prayers for the victims of Sunday’s tragic shooting in Orlando. AMYA categorically condemns this senseless act of violence and prejudice. The faith of Islam reveres and holds all life as sacred ..."_
Dated 12 Jun:  _"CAIR-FL to Respond to Florida Night Club Shooting, Urge Muslims to Donate Blood for Victims"_

Meanwhile, _this_ didn't take long ...

_"Orlando Nightclub Shooting Another False Flag?"_ (via veteranstoday.com)
_"Breaking News! Omar Mateen Did Not Act Alone! Proof of False Flag Conspiracy"_ (via thecommonsenseshow.com)
_"Orlando Shootings: Terrorism or False Flag?"_ (via globalresearch.ca)


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Anywho. Let's not do this here? Or do we have to?



"Here" seems like the ideal place to do this.  You know,  in the Islamic terrorisim in the west thread.


----------



## a_majoor

Glenn Reynolds (Instapundit) compares this to a 4GW operation. Our security, law enforcement and civil liberties structures are not designed to deal with this sort of attack. (definitionally, "Fourth-generation warfare (4GW) uses all available networks — political, economic, social, and military — to convince the enemy’s political decision makers that their strategic goals are either unachievable or too costly for the perceived benefit. It is an evolved form of insurgency. Still rooted in the fundamental precept that superior political will, when properly employed, can defeat greater economic and military power, 4GW makes use of society’s networks to carry on its fight. Unlike previous generations of warfare, it does not attempt to win by defeating the enemy’s military forces. Instead, via the networks, it directly attacks the minds of enemy decision makers to destroy the enemy’s political will. Fourth-generation wars are lengthy — measured in decades rather than months or years.").

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-omar-mateen-islam-terrorism-column/85794088/



> *Glenn Reynolds: An untraditional war*
> Glenn Harlan Reynolds 8:54 a.m. EDT June 13, 2016
> We can't stop ISIL-inspired massacres if we deny we're fighting Islam's jihadist strain.
> 
> In the wake of the Orlando shootings, people are trotting out the usual post-massacre talking points about gun control, terrorism, etc. But the solutions aren’t so easy.
> 
> Gun control is much stricter in Europe, but that hasn’t stopped mass shootings like the ones at Charlie Hebdo’s offices or at the Bataclan concert hall. (It’s also very strict in California, but that didn’t stop the shootings at San Bernardino.) Talking about gun control is mostly a way of avoiding a tough problem.
> 
> Donald Trump, meanwhile, was quick to tweet out that this vindicates his positions: “Appreciate the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism, I don't want congrats, I want toughness & vigilance. We must be smart!” But Trump’s proposal of a temporary moratorium on immigration of Muslims to America wouldn’t have prevented shooter Omar Mateen’s actions. Mateen wasn’t a recent immigrant but a  U.S. citizen born of Afghan parents, and he pledged allegiance to the Islamic State terrorist group, according to a Department of Homeland Security report cited by Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif.
> 
> The thing is, proposals such as gun control are basically peacetime remedies, which don’t apply in time of war. But traditional wartime remedies might not work, either, because this is not a traditional war.
> 
> Instead, what we are facing is what William S. Lind calls “fourth-generation warfare.” Or maybe it’s even fifth-generation warfare: We’re not fighting armies. We’re not fighting guerrillas. We’re not even fighting traditional terrorists. Instead, we’re fighting an opponent who turns apparently law-abiding citizens (Mateen was licensed as a security guard and thus had passed background checks) into killers without anyone noticing. They’re not actually “lone wolf” terrorists; they’re more like human drones, attacking distant targets on command without warning.
> 
> Well, that last isn’t quite true. There were warning signs with the San Bernardino shooters, whose neighbors reportedly didn’t want to call the cops for fear of being thought racist. And there were warning signs with Mateen, who apparently had been on security officials’ radar screen for some time but not enough to do anything about it. Classmates of Nidal Hassan said he regularly spouted Islamist propaganda months before he shot up Fort Hood, but the military was too politically correct to do anything and afterward tried for some time to pretend that his deliberate, jihadist attack was merely “workplace violence.”
> 
> To prevent this sort of event in the future, we need to do several things.
> 
> First, interrupt the flow of radicalizing propaganda at the source: ISIL and various other jihadist outfits need to be neutralized or destroyed. These organizations pursue a deliberate strategy of radicalizing Muslims in Western countries to turn them into terrorists, and they operate networks of sympathizers throughout the USA. We used to cozy up to the Saudis, but thanks to hydraulic fracturing we don’t really need their oil anymore, so they need to be told to put a stop to this sort of support or else. We likely could have nipped ISIL in the bud a few years ago at minimal cost — or kept it from sprouting in the first place by maintaining a presence in Iraq — but it needs to be brought down now.
> 
> Vigils were held around the country grieving for the more than 50 people who were killed in a mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando. Meanwhile, the wife of the shooter is calling him "mentally ill." (June 12) AP
> 
> We also need to be clear about what it is we’re fighting. We’re not fighting Islam as such. Many good Muslims are horrified by this violence. But we are fighting the jihadist strain of Islam, and unfortunately quite a few Muslims view that strain as legitimate.
> 
> We can’t allow ourselves to be blinded to this reality, unless we want to see jihadist attacks like this — which have, sadly, become normal in the past few years — continue and increase.
> 
> Glenn Harlan Reynolds, a University of Tennessee law professor and the author of The New School: How the Information Age Will Save American Education from Itself, is a member of USA TODAY's Board of Contributors.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> "Here" seems like the ideal place to do this.  You know,  in the Islamic terrorisim in the west thread.



LOL fair enough, I guess I more meant at this time. Anyways, the first link was to place your statement in a religious context, second one was to show that murder generally was forbidden and third one was to show killing non-Muslims specifically was forbidden.

So was I thorough enough to debunk the statement?


----------



## AbdullahD

Shayk Yasir Qadhi tipped me off to this via fb feed and I ran to Google to get something substantial to post.

It looks like Omar mateen was a homosexual himself and frequented the pub he shot up, allegedly bouncers had to throw him out occasionally. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-atta/


----------



## The Bread Guy

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> It looks like Omar mateen was a homosexual himself and frequented the pub he shot up, allegedly bouncers had to throw him out occasionally.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-atta/


Just spotted a few similar hits myself ...

_"Homicidal homophobe used to hang at Orlando gay hotspot, some regulars recall"_
MSNBC:  _"Here's what reporting we know: several people on the record saying shooter was on several gay dating apps and messaged with them..."_
ABC News:  _"Former Pulse security guard tells ABC News she is "100% sure" she had thrown the #Orlando shooter out of the club multiple times in the past"_
Yet another ingredient for the "what drove him" stew ...


----------



## Remius

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Shayk Yasir Qadhi tipped me off to this via fb feed and I ran to Google to get something substantial to post.
> 
> *It looks like Omar mateen was a homosexual himself* and frequented the pub he shot up, allegedly bouncers had to throw him out occasionally.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/14/orlando-gunman-was-a-regular-at-lgbt-nightclub-pulse-before-atta/



Was he though?  When you go hunting, you try to blend in with your surroundings.  This may have been part of his planning for a while.


----------



## Lightguns

That's what I thought but 2 years seems a long recce......


----------



## Remius

Lightguns said:
			
		

> That's what I thought but 2 years seems a long recce......



Might have taken him 2 years to put himself up to it as well.


----------



## Old Sweat

How does all this jibe with the statement (by his father?) that the catalyst was when he became enraged when he was two men kissing in Miami? 

I fear there is too much unsubstantiated information or rumour floating around by an eager media and internet "experts" to reach a conclusion. Best that we wait for the professionals to complete their investigation. And if any of us believe their findings will be received and accepted as valid, well, lots of luck.


----------



## AbdullahD

Remius said:
			
		

> Might have taken him 2 years to put himself up to it as well.



Fair points, but what could he be looking for that would take two years on the inside to find.

Bars are not exactly that hard to scout out I hate to say it... I could believe a couple weekends... he'll even a couple months... but a couple years sounds like he liked it to me...

Full disclosure as always I have zero knowledge of warfare and if I'm being an idiot here call me on it... but how he did this it just seemed to simple to need two years of research...


----------



## jollyjacktar

Maybe he just sucked at research.


----------



## mariomike

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Some of Canada's worst mass murders were carried out with explosives (Air India, 329 people) or fire (Gargantua nightclub in 1975, 13 dead)



From what I have read, "Some were shot, but most suffocated when the building was set on fire in what was believed to be an underworld contract hit."



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Maybe he just sucked at research.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> How does all this jibe with the statement (by his father?) that the catalyst was when he became enraged when he was two men kissing in Miami?


One more theory to throw into the sausage machine:  #selfhatecrime?



A reminder to anyone seeking an "all jihadi" or "all homophobia/hate" answer here:  it may be both, it may be something else we don't know about, it may be a bit of all of the above.


			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I fear there is too much unsubstantiated information or rumour floating around by an eager media and internet "experts" to reach a conclusion.


As is always the case with such attacks.  This one, though, I think seems to hit a wider range of buttons than the (relatively more) cut-and-dried "guy/gal (with or without mental illness) is radicalized => hurts/kills cop/soldier/symbol of the state-society" events.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This one, though, I think seems to hit a wider range of buttons than the (relatively more) cut-and-dried "guy/gal (with or without mental illness) is radicalized => hurts/kills cop/soldier/symbol of the state-society" events.



I think this one hit all three buttons. Add a dash of possible mental illness...


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> So was I thorough enough to debunk the statement?



Honestly no,  not at all,  and I'll explain why. 

I can drop a quote like 


> Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"



To me that's straight forward.  Cut peoples heads off if they don't believe in Allah. 

Now you get all these kinds of scholars who try and pick apart the various spiritual angles and different contexts and "well what they really mean"  etc. When  I hear someone trying to put cutting someone's head and finger tips off into a  "spiritual"  context it sounds like Bullshit and no different to me that when I catch a student (or child)  doing something wrong  they come up with 101 reasons about what they kinda sorta really are doing.  "No its not how it looks,  that's not what I mean, I meant to do this ,   I just thought no cell phones meant no texting, maybe but this and that,  you don't understand"    Willy nilly stuff. 

The problem with Islam, one of many,  is that these" friendly scholars" are all but ignored by the masses.  Too many Muslims (the world over)  take "cut their heads off"  in its most literal form.


----------



## Jed

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Honestly no,  not at all,  and I'll explain why.
> 
> I can drop a quote like
> 
> To me that's straight forward.  Cut peoples heads off if they don't believe in Allah.
> 
> Now you get all these kinds of scholars who try and pick apart the various spiritual angles and different contexts and "well what they really mean"  etc. When  I hear someone trying to put cutting someone's head and finger tips off into a  "spiritual"  context it sounds like Bullshit and no different to me that when I catch a student (or child)  doing something wrong  they come up with 101 reasons about what they kinda sorta really are doing.  "No its not how it looks,  that's not what I mean, I meant to do this ,   I just thought no cell phones meant no texting, maybe but this and that,  you don't understand"    Willy nilly stuff.
> 
> The problem with Islam, one of many,  is that these" friendly scholars" are all but ignored by the masses.  Too many Muslims (the world over)  take "cut their heads off"  in its most literal form.



The ugly face of truth. Not always easy to acknowledge.


----------



## mariomike

Regarding this joint in Orlando. I am sure the investigators will check if they were obeying the occupancy limits and emergency exit regulations at the time of the massacre.

I'm not a daytime inspector, but I remember some nightclubs that looked to me on emergency night calls like death-traps waiting to happen. Overcrowded and problems with the emergency exits.  This was intentional so customers would not sneak out without paying and/or let their friends in without paying the door charge.
We always tried to use the emergency exits, and got to see the problems.

Cocoanut Grove in Boston with 492 fatalities ( hundreds more were injured ) in a single night was the worst historical example of what could go wrong in a night-club. That was an accident. One can only imagine how many in a terror attack.

Stories such as this,

Club safety measures questioned after Orlando shooting

"...prompting questions about exit plans and code enforcement at crowded area bars and clubs."

“I would be concerned now about the emergency exits ’cause it gets really full,” 

“I don’t know of a lot of jurisdictions do the night inspections, where we go out while the clubs are in operation,”


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Honestly no,  not at all,  and I'll explain why.
> 
> I can drop a quote like
> 
> To me that's straight forward.  Cut peoples heads off if they don't believe in Allah.



Totally, because when you read a book you only read one fragment of a  sentence to come up with your opinion of it all right?... not. So why only read one fragment of a  sentence and condemn an entire religion? Links for you. 

http://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/surah8_12.htm



> Now you get all these kinds of scholars who try and pick apart the various spiritual angles and different contexts and "well what they really mean"  etc.



Here is work for you, find ALL the tafsir's of Quran and kindly show me witch ones do not put them in proper context. A couple to start with are ibn Kathir and maariful quran. Both are widely accepted by ALL sunni scholars that I have ever heard of. So if every single scholar agrees with putting something in context doesn't that make sense to do so?



> When  I hear someone trying to put cutting someone's head and finger tips off into a  "spiritual"  context it sounds like Bullshit



Actually the context for this one isn't spiritual it is warfare... you kinda have to kill people in war the last I heard...



> and no different to me that when I catch a student (or child)  doing something wrong  they come up with 101 reasons about what they kinda sorta really are doing.  "No its not how it looks,  that's not what I mean, I meant to do this ,   I just thought no cell phones meant no texting, maybe but this and that,  you don't understand"    Willy nilly stuff.



Okay but yeah maybe you should read it all... heck you don't really even have the full verse there... so yea I daresay an explanation is valid and acceptable not really apples to apples here.



> The problem with Islam, one of many,  is that these" friendly scholars" are all but ignored by the masses.  Too many Muslims (the world over)  take "cut their heads off"  in its most literal form.



Really? I have seen no evidence that the majority of Muslims take the literal meaning of isolated verses out of context. The majority seem to take it in context, only extremists take it out of context and when you have 1.8 billion or so Muslims you do end up having a couple hundred thousand extremists but they are not a significant percent.

Let's read the entire surah together and tell me if it makes more sense to take it in the context of an isolated battle or not.

http://quran.com/8

Abdullah

Post script edited for clarity new phone weird auto corrects.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Actually the context for this one isn't spiritual it is warfare... you kinda have to kill people in war the last I heard...



It's not spiritual?  It's warfare based on murdering anyone and everyone who isn't a believer.  Nothing about protecting borders or land.  It's murdering disbelievers where ever you find them.  Murdering people for religious reasons sure sounds spiritual to me. 



> The majority seem to take it in context, only extremists take it out of context and when you have 1.8 billion or so Muslims you do end up having a couple hundred thousand extremists but they are not a significant percent.



1. A couple hundred thousand extremists aren't a significant percent?   
2. I've previously gave you a great example of an every day village of regular Islamic followers who turned berserk in moments and physically ripped a woman apart.  A woman who was accused of ruining a book full if paper,  which turned out to be false. 

You're couple hundred thousand figure is vastly underestimated in my opinion. 



> Let's read the entire surah together and tell me if it makes more sense to take it in the context of an isolated battle or not.


I'm content watching the news and seeing what's being done in Allah's name by his followes.


----------



## jollyjacktar

She knew! Orlando terrorist's wife 'told the FBI she tried to talk him out of the attack', visited Pulse and other targets with him AND was there when he bought his arsenal of ammunition - but never called 911 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3641206/She-knew-Orlando-terrorist-s-wife-told-FBI-tried-talk-attack-cooperating-authorities.html#ixzz4BZxFcw8M 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 1. A couple hundred thousand extremists aren't a significant percent?
> 
> You're couple hundred thousand figure is vastly underestimated in my opinion.



The percentage, if that number is accurate is 0.01111111 percent.    Not that significant no.  But I'm more concerned about the impact that percentage can have.  clearly a big one.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It's not spiritual?  It's warfare based on murdering anyone and everyone who isn't a believer.  Nothing about protecting borders or land.  It's murdering disbelievers where ever you find them.  Murdering people for religious reasons sure sounds spiritual to me.



Did you read any of the links I posted? I'm guessing no by this bit here. So please go back and do so otherwise there is no point to us discussing squat if your just going to ignore what I say.




> 1. A couple hundred thousand extremists aren't a significant percent?



Do you understand statistics? What percent is 200,000 let's say into.... 1.8 billion. Not very big.
   


> 2. I've previously gave you a great example of an every day village of regular Islamic followers who turned berserk in moments and physically ripped a woman apart.  A woman who was accused of ruining a book full if paper,  which turned out to be false.



Cool and that is accepted in Islam were? Because I saw a village of white Christians Lynch black guys before.... so that's Christianity right? Make sense? Just because idiots do something does not make it that they believe it is a religious need nor does it resemble the religion if it goes against that religions beliefs.



> You're couple hundred thousand figure is vastly underestimated in my opinion.



Mhmm and were is you proof that more then that are radicalized and believe in extreme Islam?

http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/terrorism-security/2015/0113/How-many-Muslim-extremists-are-there-Just-the-facts-please

Oops sorry it is not 200 it is 300,000 out of 1.8 billion and this is from the Christian Science Monitor, seems unbiased to me.



> I'm content watching the news and seeing what's being done in Allah's name by his followes.



Because that is were we all find unbiased and honest opinions on everything, I'm going to run to Russia today to develop a view of North America! Because it's legit! Kinda see the problem here?

Or should I go to BDS websites to develop a view of Israel? If reading the entire sentence before making an opinion on something is to much... I suppose I can't expect more. Your view is so entrenched I don't see it changing.

You literally went off over a fragment of a sentence. If that is not enough to make you think I can't help. Go back and read those links. Try developing an unbiased opinion. 

I'm not trying to attack you, this is all meant in the best of ways. But I am seriously amazed you seem to be still holding to the position that the fragment represents everything you ever needed to know...maybe if I went around judging people or things because of fragments of sentences.... it would be very concerning.

Take care Jarnhamar
Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

Remius said:
			
		

> The percentage, if that number is accurate is 0.01111111 percent.    Not that significant no.  But I'm more concerned about the impact that percentage can have.  clearly a big one.



Agreed, but then again I'd agree when any innocent blood is spilt period. But this discussion should happen on how to mitigate this .0 something percent into toothless muts. 

Abdullah


----------



## Bass ackwards

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> She knew! Orlando terrorist's wife 'told the FBI she tried to talk him out of the attack', visited Pulse and other targets with him AND was there when he bought his arsenal of ammunition - but never called 911
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3641206/She-knew-Orlando-terrorist-s-wife-told-FBI-tried-talk-attack-cooperating-authorities.html#ixzz4BZxFcw8M
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook



Interesting development. It'll be pretty tough to justify not warning somebody.

I wonder what the story is behind that British (?) army shirt he's wearing in one of the photos in the article jjt linked to...?


----------



## Remius

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Cool and that is accepted in Islam were? Because I saw a village of white Christians Lynch black guys before.... so that's Christianity right? Make sense? Just because idiots do something does not make it that they believe it is a religious need nor does it resemble the religion if it goes against that religions beliefs.



Really?  Seen it?  I've only heard and read about it.  No doubt also that some would be willing to keep at it if the law wouldn't stop them or if the rest of society wouldn't lynch them back.

I do get your point though.  Slavery in the US isn't that far off in their history and they fought a bloody internal conflict over it.  Something I think the Islamic world has yet to do (and may need, truth be told).  Back then, blacks had edited copies of the bible with things like exodus removed, for fear they might rebel against their owners.  Religion is sold a certain way based on the times, and the mood.


----------



## mariomike

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> I wonder what the story is behind that British (?) army shirt he's wearing in one of the photos in the article jjt linked to...?



He was also partial to NYPD attire.


----------



## Remius

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Agreed, but then again I'd agree when any innocent blood is spilt period. But this discussion should happen on how to mitigate this .0 something percent into toothless muts.
> 
> Abdullah



This is key.  The 0.01 percent is convincing the world that that Islam isn't what the remaining 99.99% claims it to be.  So how does the 99.99 percent convince the world otherwise?  

You previously mentioned that blacks were lynched by whites before.  It used to be an acceptable act back then, even sanctioned.  So if a white comes in to shoot blacks today it isn't so much seen as whites vs blacks.  Just some black hating white guy bigot racists.   Because society there (and in the west in general  for  that matter) does not want to put up with that type of thing.  Western society won't tolerate that.  Black or white.  

Unfortunately, a good chunk of the Islamic world hates homosexuals.  So when a Muslim man walks into a gay bar and ends 49 lives it is very hard to not link him to his religion when the religion itself encourages hatred of a certain group.  While 0.01 percent are doing this, 99.99 percent aren't really doing much to convince us that it isn't  their way of thinking.


----------



## AbdullahD

Remius said:
			
		

> Really?  Seen it?  I've only heard and read about it.  No doubt also that some would be willing to keep at it if the law wouldn't stop them or if the rest of society wouldn't lynch them back.
> 
> I do get your point though.  Slavery in the US isn't that far off in their history and they fought a bloody internal conflict over it.  Something I think the Islamic world has yet to do (and may need, truth be told).  Back then, blacks had edited copies of the bible with things like exodus removed, for fear they might rebel against their owners.  Religion is sold a certain way based on the times, and the mood.



Sorry, I have not seen it. Correct. I used that to convey my point. Which seems to have worked.

Also.... nevermind I won't get into civil war stuff here... that would thoroughly and completely derail this thread lol

But another thing is that these extremists are getting worse lately, back in history we did not have extremism like this. This is not necessarily a new thing, but in the way it is being carried out is new.

It is so sad at least to me everyone hears these isolated verses so much they become programed to thinking that is all there is and won't even entertain an opposing view.

But it is what it is. I thoroughly love these boards and Jarnhammer seems like a good guy but we all are each and every one of us programmed with our own version of the truth. I just wish I could sway him a little bit more to mine  but alas me thinks that will not happen. But his replies dont even seem hostile so it is honestly refreshing, in a sense.

Whereas on other places I frequent.... it is not as... respectful.

Now also I will note if you did read the links Jarnhamar I didn't see you addressing the information in them and that is why I assumed you didn't. If you did please explain why you discounted them.

Remius, what more could we have done in this specific instance? We arranged prayers for the deceased denounced etc etc etc. What more do we need to do? Or is it a matter of people not watching? Also we are supposed to dislike the act of homosexuality not the homosexuals, which is something a lot of Muslims can't seem to do.

OK I'm trying to sleep here... so I'm out lol

Abdullah


----------



## Loachman

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/muslim-mans-post-on-donating-blood-after-orlando-171608774.html

Muslim man’s post on donating blood after Orlando shooting goes viral

Sarah Rohoman

June 13, 2016

Although some were quick to blame Islam for the act of terror that claimed 50 lives in Orlando early Sunday morning, Mahmoud ElAwadi’s Facebook post is a reminder of the good in the world.

“Yes my name is Mahmoud a proud Muslim American,” ElAwadi shared online. “Yes I donated blood even though I can’t eat or drink anything cause I’m fasting in our holy month Ramadan just like hundreds of other Muslims who donated today here in Orlando. Yes I’m sad, frustrated and mad that a crazy guy claim to be a Muslim did that shameful act.”

His post has been shared more than 125,000 times and has received positive responses from around the world. 

“As a human this was the least I could for my fellow Americans who were injured,” ElAwadi said in an interview with Buzzfeed. “I know they need my blood. I had to give blood.”

ElAwadi goes on to explain that he witnessed the greatness of his country in the sheer amount of people that were lined up in the heat to donate even though they knew it would be a 5-7 hour wait. 

He ends his post with this rallying statement:

“Yes our community in central Florida is heart broken but let’s put our colors, religions, ethnicity, sexual orientation, political views all aside so we can UNITE against those who are trying to hurt us.”


----------



## jollyjacktar

Nice to read that.


----------



## mariomike

> ElAwadi goes on to explain that he witnessed the greatness of his country in the sheer amount of people that were lined up in the heat to donate even though they knew it would be a 5-7 hour wait.



Hopefully they keep it up for the rest of the long hot summer,

Orlando victims account for fewer than half of people killed with guns in America last weekend
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-fatally-shot-u-s-weekend-article-1.2672337


----------



## Jarnhamar

mariomike said:
			
		

> Hopefully they keep it up for the rest of the long hot summer,
> 
> Orlando victims account for fewer than half of people killed with guns in America last weekend
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-fatally-shot-u-s-weekend-article-1.2672337



Yup.  In Florida it's a tragedy,  in Chicago it's a Friday night. (Not saying that to take away from the attack)


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> The percentage, if that number is accurate is 0.01111111 percent.    Not that significant no.  But I'm more concerned about the impact that percentage can have.  clearly a big one.



Come on.  300'000 extremists?  There's probably 5 times that in Iraq and Syria alone.


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yup.  In Florida it's a tragedy,  in Chicago it's a Friday night. (Not saying that to take away from the attack)





Networks Cover Gorilla Death 54 Times More Than Chicago Shootings
http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/networks-cover-gorilla-death-54-times-more-chicago-shootings

2016
"Memorial Day weekend closes with 69 shot in Chicago"


----------



## Teager

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yup.  In Florida it's a tragedy,  in Chicago it's a Friday night. (Not saying that to take away from the attack)



Well 70 shootings within the last week. 

https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/Crime%20Statistics/1_pdfsam_CompStat%20Public%202016%20Week%2023.pdf


----------



## Loachman

mariomike said:
			
		

> Orlando victims account for fewer than half of people killed with guns in America last weekend
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-fatally-shot-u-s-weekend-article-1.2672337



I do not wish to get into an off-topic discussion/debate here, although that appears to be starting already, but this is a spurious article.

The largest proportion of US "gun deaths" are suicides. Suicide is means-independent, ie nobody intent on killing him/herself will change his/her mind merely because there is no convenient firearm. They will simply select another, equally lethal, method. Reducing "gun deaths" while driving up "rope deaths" or "bridge deaths" or "jump-in-front-of-train deaths" while leaving the overall suicide rate unchanged achieves nothing of value.

The next-largest proportion of US "gun deaths" are gang-related killings, either intentional or due to lack of target discrimination or shooting skills.

"Regular" murders represent only a small portion of the total.

Murder, like suicide, is also means-independent. There is no shortage of available methods of killing people, either individually or en masse. Eliminating every single firearm on this planet will not make much of a difference in murder rates, if any, or rates of other violent crimes. The violent will always be violent, until stopped by violence. It has always been so.

Focussing on a single means of suicide or murder is a fool's game. It achieves no benefit, and may have the opposite effect. Defensive uses of firearms, against human or animal aggressors, far outweigh criminal misuses of firearms in the US. Many more people likely remain alive and unharmed because of their enhanced ability to exercise their basic right to life, and seldom have to even fire a shot to do so. Criminals have no greater wish to die or be injured than anyone else, and will usually flee when their intended victims demonstrate a lack of need to co-operate with their predations.

The anti-gun crowd likes to deceive the naïve by talking about "gun deaths". They do not like guns, or fear them, but engaging in discussion about overall murder and violent crime rates works against them. The single most significant fact against their feeble arguments is that, over the last couple of decades, the US murder rate has dropped dramatically, while firearms ownership has risen, and almost all jurisdictions now permit open or concealed carry of defensive firearms, or both.

Criminals do not like to be shot.

The highest murder and violent crime rates are found in those larger US cities that "enjoy" strict firearms regulations, including up to outright bans. They are also havens for gang activity.

The anti-gun crowd will not allow themselves to acknowledge these simple truths. To them, an unarmed, raped, and strangled woman is more acceptable than a woman standing over the bleeding body of her would-be rapist while holding a warm pistol.

The anti-gun crowd also, inexplicably, cares not one whit about the stabbed, strangled, bludgeoned, poisoned, or burned. Only the shot matter to them. The means of death is more important, for some twisted reason, than the death itself.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Come on.  300'000 extremists?  There's probably 5 times that in Iraq and Syria alone.



I have no idea if 200,000 or 300,000 or 5 times that amount is accurate or not and neither do you it seems.  You asked if 200000 was a significant percentage or not.  I did the calculations.  It is not a significant number when taken against 1.8 Billion.  

Syria and Iraq make up a combined 50 million give or take. Not sure how many are Muslims though.  Then you would have to break it down by sect.  Also consider that the vast majority of Muslims aren't even in the Middle East.  The majority populate the Asia pacific rim.  

That being said, you would need 18 million extremists world wide to even get to 1%.  Seems high. 

Ultimately my point is that a very small percentage is defining the vast majority.  Further to that the majority don't seem to be winning the propaganda war. so the question is what can the majority do to change that?


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> The means of death is more important, for some twisted reason, than the death itself.



Nothing new about death. It was our job and pension security!


----------



## Loachman

The unpleasant side of humanity creates opportunity for many, sadly.

It has paid me well, too.


----------



## mariomike

Loachman said:
			
		

> The unpleasant side of humanity creates opportunity for many, sadly.
> 
> It has paid me well, too.



We joked about it. A lot.    They say it's a defence mechanism? I don't know. 

But, all kidding aside, I wonder if this guy was expecting a reward more along this line?

Virgins in Heaven for Suicide bombers  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/63624.0;nowap


----------



## Loachman

All of the virgins are male Star Trek fans in their mid-thirties who still live in their parents' basements.


----------



## mariomike

Or a 72 year old virgin.


----------



## The Bread Guy

White grapes, not virgins apparently   ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

Loachman said:
			
		

> All of the virgins are male Star Trek fans in their mid-thirties who still live in their parents' basements.


They get Signallers....?


----------



## mariomike

June 14, 2016

Pro-ISIS group identifies Toronto Pride Parade as ‘excellent target’ for attack
http://globalnews.ca/news/2761693/pro-isis-group-identifies-toronto-pride-parade-as-excellent-target-for-attack/
Pride organizers met representatives of the RCMP, city police and the prime minister’s office on Monday to discuss security concerns.

Pride Toronto vows to continue despite pro-Daesh threat
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/14/pride-toronto-vows-to-continue-despite-pro-daesh-threat.html
Police are aware of post from Daesh supporter on German jihadi channel against Toronto parade.

Toronto Pride Parade included in posts on pro-ISIL channel threatening North American attacks
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto-pride-parade-included-in-posts-on-pro-isil-channel-threatening-north-american-attacks
TORONTO — Security for next month’s Toronto Pride Parade was being “evaluated on an ongoing basis,” a Toronto Police spokesman said Tuesday after a threat to the event was posted on a pro-ISIL propaganda channel.


----------



## Remius

On the subjects of extremists, they are not limited to Islam.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

Lovely...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Remius said:
			
		

> I have no idea if 200,000 or 300,000 or 5 times that amount is accurate or not and neither do you it seems.  You asked if 200000 was a significant percentage or not.  I did the calculations.  It is not a significant number when taken against 1.8 Billion.


Fair enough,  percent wise it's not a large  number.  When you think of a single person blowing away 50 that 300'000 seems more significant. 



> Ultimately my point is that a very small percentage is defining the vast majority.  Further to that the majority don't seem to be winning the propaganda war. so the question is what can the majority do to change that?



Ultimately my point is I don't care what Christians or Islam did 1000, 500 or even  50 years ago;I care about today and tomorrow. 

The problem isn't just Toyota pickup driving black bandana wearing extremists.  The problem is so called "every day"  Muslims who go from zero to murder their daughter for dishonouring the family name at a drop of a hat.  Or go berserk if  someone insults Islam.  

Two police offices were just murdered in France by someone claiming aligence to Isis.  

It's a world wide problem.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Irony is that you can self-identify as any gender that you want in the west, but they will deny someone self identifying as a terrorist.


----------



## The Bread Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They get Signallers....?










			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Irony is that you can self-identify as any gender that you want in the west, but they will deny someone self identifying as a terrorist.


And there are still folks who say that you are what you are no matter what you _say or feel_, too - if self-ID isn't enough in these situations, is it enough in others?  Or just one tile in the mosaic?  With the Orlando attack, it looks like there's WAY more tiles to consider than in other, more straightforward cases.


----------



## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> With the Orlando attack, it looks like there's WAY more tiles to consider than in other, more straightforward cases.



Regarding San Bernardino and Orlando,

06/14/16

Because EMS could not get to them during the standoff many victims probably just bled to death.
http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160614/orlando-shooting-stirs-dec-2-memories-for-emergency-doctors
San Bernardino Doctor wants to save lives of mass shooting victims by getting EMS Paramedics to them faster.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or go berserk if  someone insults Islam.



To be fair here, Jarnhamar, the muslims that go berserk when someone allegedly insults Islam are usually found in countries that call themselves Muslim countries (not in the West) and where the general population that "go berserk" likely hasn't a clue what has been said about Islam or where, and are riled up about it by local Islamic leadership, without which they would not even know that "Islam has been insulted".


----------



## Loachman

The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/14/exclusive-obamas-counter-terrorism-policies-guarantee-another-terror-attack-before-election/#ixzz4BfnI3JMI (Plenty of links in the article)

Terror Expert: Obama’s Practically Guaranteeing Another Attack Before Election

Christian Datoc

8:36 PM 06/14/2016 

In an exclusive interview with The Daily Caller, foreign policy and terrorism expert Patrick Poole stated that the Obama administration’s counter-terrorism policies make it impossible for government agencies to prevent terror attacks and that the Orlando nightclub shooting will not be “the last attack on U.S. soil we’ll see before the election.”

Poole states that principles outlined in the Countering Violent Extremism doctrine - Obama’s politically correct guidelines that dictate how agencies conduct security operations - “border, if not pass, the line of criminal negligence.”

“In all three areas (below), by the White House’s own standards, the CVE has been a complete failure.”
•Enhance engagement with local communities
•Build government and law expertise for preventing violent extremism
•Counter violent extremist propaganda

He argues that the “inability to identify the ideological drivers is a feature, not a bug, of CVE.”
 Sponsored Links by  

“It’s completely designed for that, to completely remove any ideological discussion or examination from anything doing with counterterrorism. That’s its purpose, so in that effect it’s the only thing about CVE that’s working.”

Poole pointed to the purging of FBI training materials and the dissolution of the State Department’s Center for Strategic Communications to illustrate the CVE’s serious shortcomings.

“The Washington Post actually reported back in [December],” about the ineffectiveness of the CSS. “It’s such a fucking catastrophe, that they had to shut the whole thing down. They did an internal report about their effectiveness and found out it was worse than doing nothing. It was actually aiding the enemy.”

INCOMPETENCE AND PARTISAN POLITICS

Poole explicitly stated that the Obama Administration is not intentionally hampering America’s ability to effectively counter domestic terrorists.

Instead, he argues the flaws, inherent within White House policies, are produced by a combination of government officials’ incompetence and partisan politics.

“A lot of these people - I don’t want to say are dumb, they’re highly educated - they just have no fucking idea what they’re talking about,” he told TheDC. “There is a knowledge aspect, ‘well we don’t want to go make some sweeping statement about Islamic law,’ to which my immediate response is ‘what manuals of Islamic law, what Sharia have you actually read?’ They haven’t read any. That, in and of itself, is a professional failure to do their job.”

“If they’re out speaking about this, and they say this isn’t something we need to worry about - and that they have no idea what’s actually in it - there’s a professional negligence in not doing that.”

Poole noted that popular Sharia texts, like “Reliance of the Traveler,” “are available in English. You can go to any Islamic bookstore and buy these things.”

Furthermore, the vehicle for properly identifying terrorist threats totally breaks down “when you add politics into it.”

“The people in these agencies, particularly the decision makers, they’re not going to say anything that gets them uninvited to the cocktail parties or that they get a phone call from the White House,” he explained. “The result of that, time and time again, is that we see dead people. People are dying because of this.”

“Every single one of these incidents is testimony to how the utterly bizarre policy combined with their inbred penchant for political correctness has directly led to the loss of American lives on American soil.”

KNOWN WOLF TERRORISTS

Nothing exemplifies government agencies’ inability to stop terror attacks from occurring on U.S. soil better than the concept of a “known wolf terrorist,” a pattern which Poole himself characterized.

In Poole’s words, the “known wolf” is “a case where the FBI knew about them before hand and didn’t do anything,” and this list of terrorists include Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan, the Tsarnaev brothers (Boston Bombing) and the Orlando nightclub gunman Omar Mateen.

“Major Hasan was emailing with [deceased Al-Qaeda recruiter] Anwar Al-Awlaki, where the second-to-last email was about justifying attacks on his fellow soldiers,” Poole said of the former Army psychiatrist who murdered 13 soldiers and wounded 30 others in Fort Hood, TX in 2009. “The FBI put out a press release saying ‘oh, that email correspondence, it was just about religious matters’ so we closed the case.”

“It took us years to get the emails, and then we found out that was complete horse shit,” Poole added.

He also explained how the Russian Federation’s intelligence agency had in fact alerted the FBI to the possibility that Tamerlan Tsarnaev had been radicalized before he and his brother bombed the Boston Marathon in 2013, killing 3 and injuring more than 200 in the process.

“The FSB [Russian intelligence service] warned the FBI twice about Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s contacts over in Dagestan. The FBI did absolutely nothing with it. It’s almost the same thing we saw with Orlando.”

Just like the Tsarnaev brothers and Major Hasan, Omar Mateen was on the FBI’s terror watch list before committing his heinous attack on the Pulse Nightclub on Sunday.

Mateen had previously been the subject of a federal investigation, yet the case was dropped after investigators deemed the terroristic threats he made to coworkers as reactions to “being marginalized because of his Muslim faith.” (RELATED: FBI Called Off Investigation Of Orlando Shooter Because They Thought His Coworkers Were Racist)

REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES

In Poole’s eyes, Obama’s counter-terrorism policies make it impossible to label and prevent terror attacks, which is effectively worse than not having any protocols in the first place.

“Was it a surprise that the FBI wasn’t able to see that Omar Mateen was a serious problem? Of course not. They can’t identify the threat.”

“The inability to define the threat has real world consequences. How do you tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy. So how the administration’s policies have played out, you’re not able to distinguish. The extremists use the American-Muslim community as a shield. If you’re criticizing me, you’re criticizing all Muslims.”

Poole also told TheDC that in addition to hampering law enforcement efforts, Obama’s policies “end up stigmatizing the Muslim community,” leaving them vulnerable to attack from American vigilantes, disillusioned by the government’s inability to keep them safe.

“I’m surprised we haven’t seen it already,” he noted. “You’re going to have some knuckleheads go out there and say, ‘damnit I’m mad they’re not doing anything. I’m going to go shoot up a mosque.’ The administration’s policies are endangering American-Muslims.”

In closing, Poole warned that terrorist “threats are proliferating.”

“I don’t think this is the last attack on U.S. soil we’ll see before the election.”


----------



## Loachman

The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/lgbt-gun-group-on-orlando-guns-did-not-do-this-a-human-being-did-this/#ixzz4BftaoWWF

LGBT Gun Group On Orlando: GUNS Did Not Do This. A Human Being Did This

Amber Randall

1:25 PM 06/13/2016 

A LGBTQ group dedicated to the legal and safe use of firearms for the LGBTQ community put out a press release Sunday that urged people to focus on the Orlando shooter’s heinous actions and not on guns as the problem.

Oman Mir Seddique Mateen killed 49 people in a shooting at a gay nightclub Saturday night in Orlando, Fla.  Gwendolyn Patton, the first speaker of the Pink Pistols, came forward Sunday to urge Americans to not automatically blame firearms as the primary cause of the mass shooting.

“The Pink Pistols gives condolences to all family and friends of those killed and injured at Pulse,” Patton said. “This is exactly the kind of heinous act that justifies our existence. At such a time of tragedy, let us not reach for the low-hanging fruit of blaming the killer’s guns. Let us stay focused on the fact that someone hated gay people so much they were ready to kill or injure so many. A human being did this. The human being’s tools are unimportant when compared to the bleakness of that person’s soul.

Pink Pistols is a group dedicated to the “legal, safe and responsible use of firearms for the sexual minority community.” The group emphasizes teaching LGBTQ people to arm and protect themselves legally.

Patton continued, “I say again, GUNS did not do this. A human being did this, a dead human being. Our job now is not to demonize the man’s tools, but to condemn his acts and work to prevent such acts in the future. It is difficult, if not impossible, to foresee such an event.” But if they cannot be prevented, then they must be stopped as fast as someone tries to start them.”

“It’s sad that we must consider such things, but when there are persons out there who mean us harm, we must find ways to protect ourselves within the law,” Patton concluded.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I wouldn't go so far as to call that POS a human being.


----------



## Loachman

The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/14/omar-mateen-was-a-registered-democrat-but/#ixzz4BgJRKQIU

Omar Mateen Was A Registered Democrat, BUT…

Jim Treacher

8:55 AM 06/14/2016 

If you’re wondering why the Democrats have been screaming about the NRA ever since the Orlando massacre, it’s because they don’t want to talk about the fact that the shooter was one of their own.

Courtesy of Snopes.com, here’s Omar Mateen’s voter registration:

omar-mateen-democrat

Now, you may think that just because Mateen was a registered Democrat, that somehow means Mateen was a registered Democrat. But it’s not that simple, according to Snopes’ Kim LaCapria:

"What that lone fact means is the subject of a good deal of speculation, with possibilities ranging from Mateen’s being a supporter of Democratic ideology to his simply having chosen a random political affiliation when he initially registered. Mateen didn’t appear on the FBI’s radar until 2013, and it’s possible that in the ten years between 2006 and 2016 his political outlook (whatever it was to begin with) might have changed radically, even if his voter registration did not)."

In other words, we have a solid fact - Mateen was a registered Democrat - but it makes LaCapria and a lot of other people uncomfortable. So that fact becomes a “Mixture” of true and false. Just because Mateen was a Democrat doesn’t necessarily mean he was a Democrat-Democrat. 

You see, being a Democrat makes you a good person. How could a Democrat do something so awful? Well then, he probably wasn’t really a Democrat, even though he was definitely a Democrat.

And that’s how you “think” like a Democrat.

We’re also learning that Mateen was a regular at that same gay nightclub for years, and he used a gay dating app. So, he was a gay Muslim Democrat. He hit the trifecta of victimhood. That means it has to be the gun’s fault, and the NRA’s fault, and the GOP’s fault, and Christians’ fault, and white people’s fault. It’s everybody’s fault but the gay Muslim Democrat who pulled the trigger.

Katie Frates has a terrific piece on this cognitive dissonance among the Democrats. Read the whole thing. Their behavior seems baffling, until you realize that they have to tell themselves these lies just to get through the day. And then they rage at you for reminding them of the truth.

If you’re gay and you think the Democrats give a damn about you, you’re wrong. They’re glad to ruin a baker’s life for refusing to make you a wedding cake, but when a Muslim terrorist comes after you for being who you are, you’re on your own. 

P.S.

This weekend's mass shooting in Orlando is another perfect opportunity for Congress to ignore common sense.https://t.co/2myKeufZrn
 - Full Frontal (@FullFrontalSamB) June 14, 2016

A gay Muslim Democrat just killed a bunch of people. Common sense dictates that we blame everybody but him. https://t.co/2vWD8v9pOW
- Jim Treacher (@jtLOL) June 14, 2016


----------



## Loachman

The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/an-islamic-terrorist-slaughtered-gay-men-and-democrats-wont-admit-it/#ixzz4BgK4WuAR

An Islamic Terrorist Slaughtered Gay Men, And Democrats Won’t Admit It

Katie Frates

10:51 PM 06/13/2016 

The Democratic Party is facing an identity crisis: one of its favorite minorities just slaughtered 49 members of one of its other favorite minorities.

Muslim terrorist Omar Mateen entered Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla., early in the morning Sunday and proceeded to massacre 49 innocent people and wound 53 others before police killed him hours later. He was allegedly enraged at seeing two men kissing a couple months prior to the shooting, according to his father, Mir Seddique. Seddique insists the rampage had nothing to do with religion, but Mateen called 911 and pledged allegiance to Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi before entering Pulse.

If you’re unaware of ISIS’s position on homosexuality, the radical Islamic group likes to throw gay men off buildings.

The Democratic Party, liberal media and presumptive Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton have danced around any association between Islam and radicalism for years. Clinton finally admitted the existence of “radical Islamism” Monday during a speech about the Orlando attack after dodging the phrase during the San Bernardino and Paris attacks. President Barack Obama, Clinton, Sens. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and outlets like MSNBC and CNN have all attacked Republicans for connecting the barbarism of ISIS, al-Qaida and terrorists like Mateen, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Mali to Islam.

So what happens when a minority Democrats have championed for decades is attacked by something Democrats say doesn’t exist?

Perhaps nothing immediately, but it’s impossible to ignore the carefully-selected sentences, vague, nondescript platitudes, and finger-pointing at gun control. None of which is the Democratic Party standing up for the LGBT community and condemning a radical sect of Islam. A sect which unwaveringly declares it’s violent hatred for the LGBT community.

Maybe it was easy to ignore because no radical Muslim had targeted the LGBT community in America until now. The atrocities were safely tucked away on another continent, separated by vast oceans, America’s fatigue of anything in the Middle East, and our short attention spans. It never directly impacted the Democratic Party’s voters, until now.

Muslim Americans lean heavily Democrat, and so do LGBT Americans. Pew Research Center found in 2011 that 70 percent of Muslims identify as Democratic or lean Democratic. A measly 11 percent identify as Republican or lean Republican, and 19 percent identify as independent or don’t lean either way. A 2012 Gallup survey showed 44 percent of LGBT Americans identifying as Democratic and a paltry 13 percent Republican. Forty-three percent identify as independent.

The Democratic Party is walking a tightrope, and it’s stumbling. When you refuse to stand up for anything, you stand up for nothing; A community of people is wounded, and the party they’ve looked to as a champion of their civil rights is refusing to acknowledge an undeniable fact.

A radical Islamic terrorist murdered 49 defenseless gay people, and the LGBT community knows it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> To be fair here, Jarnhamar, the muslims that go berserk when someone allegedly insults Islam are usually found in countries that call themselves Muslim countries (not in the West) and where the general population that "go berserk" likely hasn't a clue what has been said about Islam or where, and are riled up about it by local Islamic leadership, without which they would not even know that "Islam has been insulted".



So Germany, France and Britain are Muslim countries now?


----------



## Loachman

National Review http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436670/orlando-shooting-jihadist-terror-liberals-blame-christians?

Christians Didn’t Commit the Orlando Massacre

David French June 15, 2016 2:41 PM

Omar Mateen did.

We are now fully through the looking glass. A Muslim man walked into a gay nightclub and gunned down 49 men and women, most of them gay or lesbian. He paused in the middle of his massacre to call 911 and a local television station, making clear that he wanted the world to know he had pledged allegiance to ISIS. There are no dog whistles here. This is a textbook example of jihadism in action, plain and simple.

Yet somehow, Omar Mateen’s massacre has put American Christians on the defensive.

Yesterday, Anderson Cooper grilled Florida attorney general Pam Bondi, accusing her of hypocrisy for expressions of support for slain Floridians. Why was she hypocritical? Because she opposed same-sex marriage:

Today, the New York Times editorialized about the domestic threat to LGBT Americans and declared that they were “casualties of a society where hate has deep roots.” The “society” the Times condemned wasn’t the ISIS caliphate — it was America, and specifically states such as Texas and North Carolina that are fighting federal edicts that demand that men should have access to women’s restrooms. The Times couldn’t bring itself to condemn Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, but it attacked North Carolina governor Pat McCrory and Texas governor Greg Abbott.

Even well-meaning Christians are adopting the secular-progressive line. In a viral Facebook post, popular writer and speaker Jen Hatmaker declared, “We cannot with any integrity honor in death those we failed to honor in life.” She then proceeded to offer a standard leftist broadside against Evangelicals, arguing that Christian “anti-LGBTQ sentiment has paved a long runway to hate crimes.”

The principles, such as they exist, seem to be this: If you oppose same-sex marriage or mixed-gender bathrooms, then you not only can’t legitimately grieve the loss of gay lives, you’re partially responsible for the massacre in Orlando. Conservative efforts to protect religious freedom and freedom of association from unprecedented infringement will kill people. Never mind that all the actual evidence in the case points to Islamic motivations extrapolated from well-known and widely shared interpretations of Shariah law, somehow those darn Baptists are to blame.

Does this mean that Barack Obama would have been complicit in the massacre if it had happened four years ago, before he publicly changed his stance on same-sex marriage? What about Hillary Clinton? She opposed gay marriage until 2013. Her husband signed the Defense of Marriage Act. The Orlando shooter lived for years under Democratic administrations that opposed same-sex marriage. I guess Bill Clinton shares some blame as well.

Some on the left simply refuse to believe what terrorists say about themselves and about their intentions.

I don’t have the words adequate to express my contempt for this view. Does any living, sentient being believe that if a Christian had launched this attack, these same liberals wouldn’t blame his religious beliefs? The so-called “reality-based community” ignores the actual evidence in the attack - Mateen’s own loudly declared jihadist beliefs - in an attempt to shame a community whose primary “sin” is opposing the sexual revolution.

But there is something even more sinister at work than garden-variety anti-Christian bigotry, aided and abetted by gullible believers such as Hatmaker: Americans are being purposefully and intentionally distracted from our true enemies. Once again, the jihadist threat is being minimized.

Some on the left simply refuse to believe what terrorists say about themselves and about their intentions. Osama bin Laden couldn’t have really attacked the World Trade Center in part out of a desire to avenge Christians’ 15th-century conquest of Muslim Spain. Iranian leaders don’t really mean “death to America.” Muslim nations that mandate the death penalty or other draconian criminal punishments for homosexuality don’t truly express the will of their people.

The result is bigotry running two ways - an unreasoning, irrational hatred of American Christians and a comprehensive denial of Muslim moral agency. American Christians are responsible for things they don’t believe. Sharia-observant Muslims, by contrast, aren’t responsible for the things they do believe.

And make no mistake, said Muslims don’t care a whit what the New York Times, Anderson Cooper, Jen Hatmaker, or any other anti-Evangelical terror apologist has to say. To them, one American life taken is as good as any other. They will attack again, maybe at another gay bar, or another office Christmas party, or a coffee house, or a sporting event, or a church. And when they do, there will surely be some Americans who excuse their actions out of eagerness to blame other Americans, instead.

- David French is an attorney, and a staff writer at National Review.


----------



## Loachman

National Review http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436626/obama-orlando-speech-downplaying-radical-islam-helps-trump?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Wednesday%20Trending%20Email%20Reoccurring%202016-06-15&utm_term=NR5PM

Obama: Whose Side Is He On?

by Mona Charen June 14, 2016 6:29 PM

The president has a pattern of downplaying Islamist motivations and dismissing Americans’ fears.

Whole doctoral dissertations could be devoted to the question of what makes President Obama angry and what does not. His Tuesday broadside against Donald Trump stood in marked contrast to Sunday’s somewhat cold response to the Orlando massacre. This is a pattern.

Mr. Obama did not name Trump, referring to him only as a “politician who tweets and appears on cable-news shows.” I’m not inclined to defend Trump, and will not do so now - his notion that we bar all Muslims from traveling to the United States is laden with unintended consequences. But President Obama’s studied refusal to acknowledge the reality of Islamic-inspired violence has helped to create the Trump phenomenon. In fact, it may well be the greatest contribution to Trump’s success. Some say that presidential elections are often referenda on the last guy: Carter was the anti-Nixon, Reagan was the anti-Carter, Clinton was the anti-Bush, and Obama was the anti-Bush. Thus, Trump is the anti-Obama.

Mr. Obama fumed at those who criticize his administration for refusing to use the words “radical Islam.” He mocked the idea that language matters: “Not once has an adviser of mine said, ‘Man, if we use that phrase, we are going to turn this whole thing around,’ not once.” He never tires of slaying straw men. It’s not a matter of intoning magic words. The critique of Obama is that he has so often projected the image of Islam’s defense counsel instead of America’s commander-in-chief.

In fairness (though Obama is rarely fair to those he differs with), it should be noted that George W. Bush was also at pains to shun the impression that the U.S. was at war with Islam. But here’s the difference: Bush never gave the impression that he wasn’t on America’s side, and Obama consistently does. Moreover, when Obama or members of his administration stubbornly refuse to acknowledge what everyone knows to be true, it makes people feel unsafe.

In 2009, Colonel Nidal Hasan, marinated in the writings of Islamic extremists, jumped on a table shouting “allahu akbar” and opened fire on 45 soldiers, killing 13. Mr. Obama was unsure of his motive and warned Americans not to “jump to conclusions.” Until late 2015, the administration declined to call Fort Hood a terrorist attack, preferring the Newspeakish “workplace violence.”

When ISIS-linked terrorists decapitated their American captive James Foley, and released the video on the Internet, Obama went golfing. He later said he regretted this, but that couldn’t erase the signal of indifference.

Bush never gave the impression that he wasn’t on America’s side, and Obama consistently does.

After Islamic extremists in Paris attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices and a Jewish supermarket in January 2015, Mr. Obama spoke of vicious killers who “randomly shoot a bunch of folks at a deli in Paris.” But the attacks could not have been more pointed — a satirical magazine that had caricatured Mohammed and a Jewish store. Did Obama misspeak, or was he downplaying the Islamic-extremist element? When 50 world leaders, including those of Great Britain, France, Germany, Israel, and Russia marched in Paris to show solidarity against terrorism, Mr. Obama skipped the event and failed to send a high-ranking surrogate.

After Muslim terrorists turned the Brussels airport into an abattoir in March, Mr. Obama attended a baseball game in Cuba. Before the bodies had all been buried, he danced the tango in Argentina.

It’s not that Mr. Obama is soft on religiously inspired violence. At the National Prayer Breakfast, he cautioned Americans against “getting on our high horse,” because during the Crusades and the Inquisition, terrible deeds were committed “in the name of Christ.” While Obama played historical tit for tat, terrorists were plotting their next strike.

The pattern has recurred throughout his presidency - from the Boston marathon bombing, to the Paris attacks, to “clock boy,” to the San Bernardino shootings and now the Orlando attack, Obama has downplayed Islamist motivations and dismissed American fears. He reminded The Atlantic magazine that you were more likely to die in your bathtub than in a terror attack.

Attorney General Loretta Lynch expressed the administration’s view succinctly when, after San Bernardino, she confided that her “greatest fear” was of an anti-Muslim violent backlash in the United States. That has ever been the president’s chief worry as well, though there has been precious little justification for it. Ironically, Obama has helped to make such a backlash more likely in the future. By steadfastly refusing to make distinctions among Muslims based upon ideology and conduct - by insisting that Muslims are no more plagued by violent extremism than, say, Presbyterians - he has opened the door to Trump, who also makes no distinctions.

- Mona Charen is a senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center.


----------



## cupper

:facepalm:


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Just a quick thanks to all who posted links to the muslim communities reactions - greatly appreciated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Colin P said:
			
		

> Irony is that you can self-identify as any gender that you want in the west, but they will deny someone self identifying as a terrorist.



This is probably the most astute thing I've read all year. You're 100% bang on with this.


----------



## Loachman

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/afghan-american-community-attack-elicits-horror-sorrow-043702156.html?nhp=1

In Afghan-American community, attack elicits horror, sorrow

Kristin J. Bender, The Associated Press

The Canadian Press

June 15, 2016

FREMONT, Calif. - In this Northern California city where people can buy prayer flags at the dollar store, fresh-baked Afghan bread at corner markets and feast on beef kabobs in "little Kabul's" many restaurants, Afghan-Americans are angry.

Fremont, about 40 miles southeast of San Francisco, is a bedroom city of 220,000 people with a thriving waterpark, leafy streets and a public lake. It is also home to the largest population of Afghan-Americans in the country.

With news that an attack on an Orlando, Florida, gay nightclub left 49 people dead and gunman Omar Mateen was born to Afghan immigrant parents, those in the community are expressing horror, sorrow and disbelief that one of their own could commit the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

"Every single Afghan feels really horrible because so many innocent people were killed by a mad guy," said Waheed Momand, president of the Afghan Coalition, the largest non-profit advocating for Afghan people in the U.S.

It was a tragedy that brought Momand back 15 years, when the community realized the Sept. 11 terror attacks were orchestrated by al-Qaida in Afghanistan.

In last weekend's shooting, Mateen's motivations were not yet clear. Despite pledging support to the Islamic State group in a 911 call during the attack, other possible explanations could be mental illness and shame about his own sexuality, a divisive subject among a Muslim community that often shuns gays.

"What motivated him doesn't matter — it's wrong and it's very close to our hearts. We feel sorry for the victims, and we feel sorry for the pain of their families and their loved ones. The fact that this guy was from Afghan origin makes it even worse for us," Momand said.

Federal authorities are investigating whether Mateen regularly went to the nightclub he attacked and had used gay dating apps.

Bilal Miskeenyar, a 29-year-old musician from Fremont, believes the shooter was motivated by hatred, saying it's anathema to Muslim and Afghan views.

"Whether it was anti-homosexual or not, my religion, my people and my culture does not believe in such things," he said. "I think it was hateful, and I think it was a very hideous crime, and I think people should not judge (Afghan people) because of one bad apple."

From the markets with handmade meat kabobs to the stores stocked with traditional Afghan candies and nuts, some Afghan-Americans in Fremont say they don't believe there will be a backlash against their community because of Mateen's actions.

"I have American customers, Mexican customers, Chinese customers, and everybody likes me," said Sardar Ghuss, a clerk at the Little Kabul Market. "I don't have any problems. We all work together."

But at the Maiwand Market, where fresh bread comes out of the oven throughout the day, Mojgan Mohammad Parwes said she felt some fear Monday.

"I was a little hesitant coming here today," said the 36-year-old mother of three who wears a hijab. "People are angry, and it's understandable."

What's more, those in her community are heartbroken, she said.

"They're very distraught," Parwes said. "Emotionally, they are not doing well."

Behind the market's counter Monday, it was business as usual for Kais Karimi, a 33-year-old clerk at his family's business. But his emotions were running high.

"I feel terrible. Human lives are being lost regardless of age, religion, sexual orientation or anything like that," Karimi said. "It's just sad that people are dying over the way that they think. Everybody has the right to live however they want and they should be left alone."

In the wake of Sunday's shooting, Afghan Coalition members are meeting this week to plan an interfaith vigil or service, like they did after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Momand, the group's president, remembers its effect on the U.S. Afghan community.

"Right after I found out the attack was organized from Afghanistan by al-Qaida, honestly it was one of the darkest days," he said. "Firstly, because so many people were killed that day, and second, it was coming from Afghanistan."

But 15 years later, he thinks most people understand that Afghan-Americans are just like everyone else, and they condemn terror just like everybody else.

"(Terrorism) is not the human way, it's not the American way, it's not the Afghan way and it's not the Muslim way," Momand said.


----------



## Jarnhamar

recceguy said:
			
		

> So Germany, France and Britain are Muslim countries now?



Bingo.
Their is nothing non-west about them.


----------



## mariomike

> Today, the New York Times editorialized about the domestic threat to LGBT Americans and declared that they were “casualties of a society where hate has deep roots.”



Although the worst, Orlando was not the first,

A Brief History of Attacks at Gay and Lesbian Bars
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/a-brief-history-of-attacks-at-gay-and-lesbian-bars.html?action=click&contentCollection=N.Y.%20%2F%20Region&module=RelatedCoverage&region=EndOfArticle&pgtype=article


----------



## AbdullahD

For those interested in the deeper Islamic position on homosexuality, from a chap who does not seem like an apologist.... (at least to me)

https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2016/06/14/islamic-law-homosexuality-and-the-pulse-massacre/

I found it to be a good read.... and I'm hope ya'll  don't mind. 

Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

Mulgrew  and Korody case isconsidering entrapment. 

http://vancouversun.com/news/crime/ian-mulgrew-terror-trial-ends-with-elephant-in-the-room


----------



## a_majoor

Seeing these Islamic terrorists as parts of cells rather than "lone wolves" makes much more sense in explaining the "hows and whys".

http://nypost.com/2016/06/18/why-the-lone-wolf-terrorist-is-a-myth/



> *Why the ‘lone-wolf’ terrorist is a myth*
> By Paul Sperry June 18, 2016 | 3:20pm
> 
> After Orlando, more Americans support Trump’s ban on Muslims
> 
> President Obama says don’t worry, the Orlando terrorist was just another “lone actor” operating in isolation, unconnected to any larger group of supporters. In fact, these so-called “lone wolves” are running in packs, and suggesting otherwise gives the public a false sense of security.
> 
> Yet Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson echoed Obama, saying Omar Mateen was “self-radicalized” without any religious, ideological or operational support from friends, family or others in the Muslim community.
> 
> “What we do know at this point is it appears this was a case of self-radicalization,” Johnson said. “He does not appear to have been part of any group.”
> 
> A more accurate picture is that Mateen, an Afghan-American, was part of a disturbingly large Muslim family of sympathizers, supporters and even co-conspirators.
> 
> For starters, his wife could face criminal charges in the attack on the gay Orlando nightclub, the deadliest act of terrorism in the US since 9/11. Noor Zahi Salman, who wed Mateen in 2011, reportedly told the FBI she knew about her husband’s planned attack and even drove him to the site of the massacre as part of a scouting operation. She also is said to have helped him case the Disney Springs shopping complex. What’s more, Salman allegedly was with Mateen when he bought ammo and a holster used in the attack.
> 
> Prosecutors have convened a grand jury to present evidence against Salman, a Palestinian immigrant, who ultimately could be indicted as an accessory to the murders of 49 people and the attempted murders of 53 others. Possible other charges include failing to report a terrorist attack and lying to federal agents.
> 
> It appears the seeds of Mateen’s hatred were planted at home.
> 
> His Afghan immigrant father, who founded a nonprofit group to support the Taliban, preached gays should be punished. In a video Seddique Mir Mateen posted on the Web, he expresses gratitude toward the Afghan Taliban, who stone homosexuals to death, calling them “our warrior brothers.”
> 
> Other statements make it clear the elder Mateen could have passed anti-gay views onto his son.
> 
> “God will punish those involved in homosexuality,” the elder Mateen said in the wake of his son’s rampage. He seemed to rationalize the targeting of gays by pointing out that his son was offended by two gay men kissing in front of his 3-year-old son during a recent family trip to Miami.
> 
> Other Mateen videos are full of anti-US rhetoric regarding America’s military role in Afghanistan. That influence may have showed up in his 29-year-old son’s statement to a 911 operator during the mass shooting.
> 
> “He said the reason he was doing this was he wanted America to stop bombing his country,” said a survivor who overheard the conversation.
> 
> ‘The enemies” aren’t just terrorists overseas but terrorists at home — along with their friends and relatives — and “the battlefield” is in our own communities.’
> 
> His father’s anti-American views may have seeped into the terrorist’s psyche at an earlier age. High-school classmates recall a 14-year-old Mateen jumping up and down and cheering the attacks on 9/11. “That’s what America deserves,” he reportedly exclaimed, while praising Osama bin Laden.
> 
> Mateen likely absorbed more anti-gay and anti-US messaging at the small Fort Pierce, Fla., mosque his father helped run. Authorities say the radical Islamic center has been a “breeding ground” for terrorists, including the first American suicide bomber in Syria, alongside whom Omar Mateen prayed. Mateen worshipped there for more than a dozen years, praying up to four times a week. State incorporation records show the senior Mateen served as the mosque’s vice president and sat on its board for several years.
> 
> Seddique Mateen insists he did not know his son was radicalized and was angered by his actions. “If I did know, 1 percent, that he was committing such a crime myself, I would have arrested him myself,” he claimed. Also serving on the board of his pro-Taliban nonprofit, The Durand Jirga Inc., are two daughters and an Afghan-born son-in-law, who’s also active in politics in Afghanistan.
> 
> Just weeks before the attack, property records I’ve obtained show Omar Mateen transferred his interest in a Fort Pierce condo over to one of the sisters and and the Afghan brother-in-law, a possible indication the family could have had some knowledge of his martyrdom plans. Authorities say the fatally wounded Mateen clearly was prepared to die in a gun battle.
> 
> The mysterious brother-in-law — Mustafa Abasin, aka Mustafa Aurakzai, who shows an intense hatred for Donald Trump on social media — has been questioned by federal investigators, along with other family members. I’m also told FBI agents have expanded the investigation overseas to family connections in Afghanistan. On Friday, both Mateen’s widow and father were placed on the federal no-fly list.
> 
> This family radicalization echoes other recent “homegrown terror” cases:
> 
> December 2015: San Bernardino terrorist Syed Farook’s father shared his hatred for Jews and even knew his son followed ISIS, while his mother lived with him and his accomplice wife in their bomb factory they called home, and was an active member of an extremist Pakistani front group. Investigators found targets and GoPro camera packaging in mom Rafia Farook’s car. Both parents were placed on a federal terrorist watchlist. Meanwhile, his sister took target practice with him. Most recently, the FBI arrested Farook’s brother, sister-in-law and another relative on terrorism and immigration fraud charges.
> 
> July 2015: The Chattanooga, Tenn., military base shooter, Mohammad Youssef Abdulazeez, was influenced by his devout Muslim father who appeared at one point on a federal terrorist watch list and is said to also have been radicalized by a pro-jihad Muslim Brotherhood uncle in Jordan who was under terrorism investigation. In addition, Abdulazeez attended a local mosque founded and controlled by the radical Brotherhood, according to property records I’ve obtained.
> 
> April 2013: The Boston Marathon bombers, Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, were radicalized by their devout, America-hating Chechen mother, who forced them to go to an extremist mosque and study hardcore Islamic texts.
> 
> “I told Tamerlan that we are Muslims, and we are not practicing our religion, and how can we call ourselves Muslims,” Mrs. Tsarnaev said. “And that’s how Tamerlan started reading about Islam, and he started praying, and he got more and more and more into his religion.”
> 
> The change was dramatic in both boys, who stopped partying and started hating — Jews, Christians, America. Suddenly they were growing out Islamic beards and saying they were “willing to die for Islam.”
> 
> As you can see, the bad apple doesn’t fall far from the terror tree.
> 
> Tamerlan Tsarnaev appeared to have a sympathetic wife, moreover. He stored pressure cookers and bomb parts at the home where he lived with his Muslim convert spouse, who investigators suspect helped purchase the equipment from Macy’s. On the day of the bombings Katherine Tsarnaev expressed no sympathy for the victims, texting a friend that “a lot more people are killed every day in Syria and other places . . . Innocent people,” according to court testimony.
> 
> In a WhatsApp message, Dzhokhar and Tamerlan’s mother also said America “is the real terrorist” and will burn “in the flames of an eternal and terrifying fire.”
> 
> Obama’s “rogue” homegrown Muslim terrorist is a myth. In virtually every case, the terrorist suspect’s radicalization spokes off into family, local mosques and the larger Muslim community. Family and friends knew they were radicalized. And in some cases, they even helped them pull off their evil plots. The shock and denials from relatives and clergy are for the most part for public consumption.
> 
> In fact, suspects in all but a handful of the roughly 90 ISIS terror cases prosecuted in America since 2014 were part of a group of up to 10 co-conspirators who met in person to discuss their plans or who made contact via text messaging or e-mail, Reuters found in a recent review of Justice Department case files. Only 11 percent of cases involved a terrorist acting entirely alone. “Wolf dens, not lone wolves, [are] the norm in US Islamic State plots,” the wire service concluded, further casting doubt on the official White House line.
> 
> “The relationships between accused co-conspirators range from casual acquaintances to lifelong friends, from married couples to cousins and from roommates to college buddies,” said the report, which did not examine connections in the Orlando attack. In virtually every case, the co-conspirators attended the same mosques. In fact, mosques are the connective tissue in all these attacks and plots.
> 
> “As you can see, the bad apple doesn’t fall far from the terror tree.”
> The president is desperately trying to disconnect these dots, but the hard truth is there’s a much broader network of support for these so-called “lone wolf” terrorists within their Muslim families and the larger Muslim community than the public is being told.
> 
> “If there’s anyone out there who thinks we’re confused about who our enemies are,” Obama lectured Americans last week in a post-Orlando speech, “that would come as a surprise to the thousands of terrorists who we’ve taken off the battlefield.”
> 
> What he still doesn’t get is, “the enemies” aren’t just terrorists overseas but terrorists at home — along with their friends and relatives — and “the battlefield” is in our own communities. Until we grasp that shocking reality, we won’t be able to stop this cancer from spreading deeper into our own back yards.


----------



## cupper

Was listening to an interview earlier this week, and the interviewee made a humorous comment to the effect that if this guy was a closeted homosexual, what is he going to do with 72 virgins when he gets to heaven.

Watched another interview on Friday of the Rachel Maddow Show (yeah yeah, put the conservative comments away for now and bear with me)

She interviewed Sohail Ahmed, a gay muslim who was radicalized, in part due to his inability to deal with is feelings about being gay. He was at the point where he seriously considered carrying out a bombing in London. He began to question his beliefs and realized that what he had been taught was wrong.

Part 1 (Intro to interview) 

*Self-hatred seen in some anti-gay hate crimes
Rachel Maddow looks at the role of self-hatred as a motivating factor in homophobia, even virulent, violent homophobia, and introduces Sohail Ahmed as a case where the dynamics of that self-hatred and Islamic extremism intersect.*

http://on.msnbc.com/28LXtwM

Part 2 (First part of interview)

*Once on the brink of terror, former Islamic extremist looks back
Sohail Ahmed, a self-described reformed Islamic extremist, talks with Rachel Maddow about his motives and mindset as he considered committing acts of terror, and how being gay deepened his radicalization.*

http://on.msnbc.com/28LW3m1

Part 3 (Final part of interview)

*How an Islamic extremist found a new path
Sohail Ahmed, a self-described reformed Islamic extremist, talks with Rachel Maddow about the terror attacks he had considered and what ultimately changed his mind, including the role of the 7/7 London attack and his own homosexuality.*

http://on.msnbc.com/1Y0dxYA

It's interesting that repression of sexual feelings and urges plays a huge part in the radicalization of young males. This falls on the same lines as another interview I listened to a couple years ago on NPR's Fresh Air with Terry Gross. Maajid Nawaz is another former radicalized muslim who worker as a recruiter for the Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir. He was imprisoned in Egypt fro 2002 to 2006. During that time he read Orwell's Animal Farm, and began to question what he had learned growing up. He's now the co-founder and chair of Quilliam, a think tank based in London, dedicated to countering extremism. He also ran for a seat in the British Parliament.

He makes an interesting point about how sexual repression plays a large part in the radicalization of muslim males. The following is an excerpt from that interview.

(I've previously posted a link in another thread)

*How Orwell's 'Animal Farm' Led A Radical Muslim To Moderation*

http://www.npr.org/2015/01/15/377442344/how-orwells-animal-farm-led-a-radical-muslim-to-moderation



> GROSS: Let me ask you this. As a young man - and you were 16 when you became an Islamist - that's the age when, I mean, so many teenagers have sex on their mind a good deal of the time. When you're an Islamist, you're not supposed to be thinking about sex all the time. You're certainly not supposed to be having sex outside of marriage. If this isn't too personal, what did you do with that impulse?
> 
> NAWAZ: (Laughter) That's a good question.
> 
> GROSS: And I ask that, in part, because we read that, like, some of the 9/11 attackers were at strip clubs, you know, before the attack. I read that Amedy Coulibaly - police raided his home in 2010 and found, in addition to all the religious texts on his computer, they had - he had photos of, quote, "pedo-pornographic character," unquote.
> 
> NAWAZ: Yeah. Yeah. You know, for all their holier-than-thou attitude, Islamists are the most - of the most sexualized beings living among us. And I know I was one. And, you know, likewise, I was very sexualized. And, you know, that's really that, deep down, when you say that a woman's face arouses me and therefore she should cover it and that's what God wants - or her hair or any other part of her body. And some of them insist that women must wear gloves. What it's really saying is that they can't take the fact that these things arouse them.
> 
> And so I joined at 16. Before that, you know, I had a liberal upbringing, and I had very, you know, many (laughter) - I say many girlfriends, you know. I had my fair share of relationships. And when I joined at 16, all of that had to stop. And that's actually one of the reasons I married young. I married my ex-wife at roughly 21. And, you know, we had a kid a year later. And that's probably why I did that because I found it extremely difficult, especially as somebody who was in my early teens, late teens and then in my early 20s to resist that impulse, as you said. And those who don't have the opportunity that I did to get married they - I, you know, I genuinely believe having - remembering what it was like, you know.
> 
> So I, as an 18-year-old, wasn't having sex, knowing what it was like because, prior to 16, I was sexually active. So I knew what I was missing. And so I can say this with a level of certainty, that those who don't immediately get married in the way that I did, early, which has its own challenges - those that don't, do often end up developing very, very severe sexual perversions. It's no surprise to me that they find pornography on the hard drives of - and not just any - I'm not arguing here that pornography is perverted, because that's a different discussion - but the very perverted type of pornography that you referred to that involves children and what have you. And also because those who take scripture vacuously go back to medieval interpretations of religion, and they find that, in Muslim medieval times, we didn't have this understanding that women were too young at 16 or too young at 15 or too young at 13 to consent to sex. And so they take that and literally apply it today.
> 
> And as we see with ISIL, you know, it's an abomination in itself that they're enslaving woman. But then, beyond that, they've issued guidance to their followers that their slaves don't have an age limit. They can, you know, they can rape a 21-year-old slave, a 50-year-old slave, and they could rape, God forbid, a 12-year-old slave. And that's the issue here, that when you can go back to medieval interpretations of religion where the standards we've become accustomed to for good, moral reasons didn't apply. And then, on top of that, you're highly sexually frustrated. You will rail against the West for their sexual promiscuity, for the way in which women are treated like meat because they're wearing miniskirts and the pornographic industry and what not have you. At yet, at the same time, you're enslaving women or you're justifying the enslavement of women, or you're justifying, likewise, treating women like meat by insisting they must cover up. And you don't see the irony there. You really don't see that you are actually a product of everything you're complaining about.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit more grist for the mill:  a two-pager attached, from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on _"When Are Violent Crimes Federal Hate Crimes?"_:


> The shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando has generated interest in the scope of the federal hate crime statute, 18 U.S.C. 249, enacted in 2009.   Section 249 establishes two distinct federal crimes.  Section 249(a)(1) outlaws violence committed because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of the victim.  Section 249(a)(2) outlaws violence committed because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of the victim.  Section 249(a)(2) applies only if the crime somehow involves commerce or was committed within federal territorial or maritime jurisdiction.  Section 249(a)(1) has no such limitation. The difference is attributable to the nature of Congress’s legislative powers ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Yup, THIS'LL get those ISIS sympathizers quaking in their boots ...


> In the middle of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, a regular at a Quebec City mosque finished a prayer in the early hours of Sunday only to find a pig's head at the doorstep as he was leaving.
> 
> The package, found in front of one of the doors of the Islamic cultural centre of Quebec City around 2:30 a.m., was accompanied by a note: "Bon appétit."
> 
> A well-known restriction in the Islamic faith, the consumption of pork is prohibited in the Qur'an.
> 
> "It is a waste of time, money and energy. We have high-definition cameras. We will certainly find the person who did this," said the president of the centre, Mohamed Yangui.
> 
> "We love everyone. We have no problem with anyone and we respect people. We hope it's mutual. And we are always here to give the image of the good Muslim to all Quebecers," he said.
> 
> Yangui believes the act, while unfortunate, was isolated ...



Meanwhile, back in the U.S. ...


> Donald Trump believes American Muslims are hiding something. “They know what’s going on. They know that [Omar Mateen] was bad,” he said after the Orlando massacre. “They have to cooperate with law enforcement and turn in the people who they know are bad. … But you know what? They didn’t turn them in. And you know what? We had death and destruction.”
> 
> This is a common idea in the United States. It’s also a lie. First, Muslims like me can’t see into the hearts of other worshipers. (Do you know the hidden depths of everyone in your community?) Second, Trump is wrong that we don’t speak up when we’re able.
> 
> I know this firsthand: I was the one who told the FBI about Omar Mateen ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

When I heard "transcripts" were being released, I expected a bit more than this, but here we have it, from the U.S. DOJ/FBI - highlights mine:


> The Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) issued the following statement regarding the FBI's release of the transcript related to the Orlando shooting:
> 
> “The purpose of releasing the partial transcript of the shooter's interaction with 911 operators was to provide transparency, while remaining sensitive to the interests of the surviving victims, their families, and the integrity of the ongoing investigation.  We also did not want to provide the killer or terrorist organizations with a publicity platform for hateful propaganda.  Unfortunately, the unreleased portions of the transcript that named the terrorist organizations and leaders have caused an unnecessary distraction from the hard work that the FBI and our law enforcement partners have been doing to investigate this heinous crime.  As much of this information had been previously reported, we have re-issued the complete transcript to include these references in order to provide the highest level of transparency possible under the circumstances.”
> 
> *Transcript of Orlando Police Department 911 Calls, June 12, 2016
> 
> 2:35 a.m.: Shooter contacted a 911 operator from inside Pulse.  The call lasted approximately 50 seconds, the details of which are set out below:
> 
> (OD)   Orlando Police Dispatcher
> 
> (OM)   Omar Mateen
> 
> OD:     Emergency 911, this is being recorded.
> 
> OM:     In the name of God the Merciful, the beneficent [Arabic]
> 
> OD:     What?
> 
> OM:     Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God [Arabic]. I wanna let you know, I’m in Orlando and I did the shootings.
> 
> OD:     What’s your name?
> 
> OM:     My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State.
> 
> OD:     Ok, What’s your name?
> 
> OM:     I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi may God protect him [Arabic], on behalf of the Islamic State.
> 
> OD:     Alright, where are you at?
> 
> OM:     In Orlando.
> 
> OD:     Where in Orlando?
> 
> [End of call.]*


----------



## jollyjacktar

I believe it's edited somewhat.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I believe it's edited somewhat.


And some media outlets talk about multiple calls, too - here's a police summary:


> 2:48 a.m.: First crisis negotiation call occurred lasting approximately nine minutes.
> 
> 3:03 a.m.: Second crisis negotiation call occurred lasting approximately 16 minutes.
> 
> 3:24 a.m.: Third crisis negotiation call occurred lasting approximately three minutes.
> 
> In these calls, the shooter, who identified himself as an Islamic soldier, told the crisis negotiator that he was the person who pledged his allegiance to [omitted], and told the negotiator to tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq and that is why he was “out here right now.” When the crisis negotiator asked the shooter what he had done, the shooter stated, “No, you already know what I did.” The shooter continued, stating, “There is some vehicle outside that has some bombs, just to let you know. You people are gonna get it, and I’m gonna ignite it if they try to do anything stupid.” Later in the call with the crisis negotiator, the shooter stated that he had a vest, and further described it as the kind they “used in France.” The shooter later stated, “In the next few days, you’re going to see more of this type of action going on.” The shooter hung up and multiple attempts to get in touch with him were unsuccessful.



Meanwhile, here's the checklist to prove this was a false flag attack  :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And some media outlets talk about multiple calls, too - here's a police summary:
> Meanwhile, here's the checklist to prove this was a false flag attack  :Tin-Foil-Hat:



Wow, that must be some Excedrin strength dope he's smoking.  Out there like Pluto...   :facepalm:


----------



## cupper

Surprisingly there is a minor element of truth on the multiple shooter part. Mateen apparently claimed that he had snipers located outside around the building who would shoot any LEO's that approached the building. And he also claimed that he had bomb vests that he would strap on to hostages to keep the police at bay.

But much like the asshat conspiracy theorist, it was all BS.


----------



## Jarnhamar

If Muslims are upset about how they're being treated or viewed then they need to do more than get angry in front of the camera or waggle their finger when a radical Islamic nut job goes out and murders people in the name of Islam. They need to get off their ass and take an active roll in stomping out that behavior. Work with the police, rat the psychos out, get them off the street and preferably out of the country.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> If Muslims are upset about how they're being treated or viewed then they need to do more than get angry in front of the camera or waggle their finger when a radical Islamic nut job goes out and murders people in the name of Islam. They need to get off their ass and take an active roll in stomping out that behavior. Work with the police, rat the psychos out, get them off the street and preferably out of the country.


For the record, it looks like they are ...

_*"U.S. officials say American Muslims do report extremist threats"*_
_*"... Ron Haddad is Dearborn’s chief of police, and he says he gets one question a lot when he travels around the country. “Someone will come up to me and put their finger in my face, and they’re already angry,” he says. “They say, ‘Will the people in your community report acts of terror to you?’“ ... Haddad has a ready answer. “Not only would they, they do,” he says. “They’ve done it.” ..."*_
_*"Montreal Islamic leader urges closer co-operation between police, Muslim community"*_
More on how such reporting has helped police here - from the executive summary of a report referenced in the previous link (links to PDF):


> ... Muslim communities helped U.S. security officials to prevent nearly 2 out of every 5 Al-Qaeda plots threatening the United States since 9/11. Muslim communities helped law enforcement prevent 1 out of every 2 of all Al-Qaeda related plots threatening the U.S. since the December 2009 “underwear bomber” plot. This is an important parallel trend to the recent spike of arrests. It also highlights the importance of partnering with society through good relations and community oriented policing ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

On the "why aren't they ratting out their own bad guys?" issue -- a bit more on previous digging into Mateen's background ...


> “They know what’s going on. They know that he was bad,” presumptive Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump told supporters after Omar Mateen killed 49 people at the Pulse nightclub on June 12, 2016.
> 
> Trump was talking about the American Muslim community, which — he argued — had covered for Mateen.
> 
> “They have to cooperate with law enforcement and turn in the people who they know are bad,” Trump doubled down. “But you know what? They didn’t turn them in. And you know what? We had death and destruction.”
> 
> But law enforcement had previously investigated Mateen. What’s more, at least one of the tips that initially led authorities to Mateen came from Mohammed Malik, a Florida entrepreneur who had attended the same mosque as Mateen ...


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

My understanding was that the shooter was given an Islamic burial.

Until the leadership stops that practice, I don't think anything will change.


----------



## mariomike

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> My understanding was that the shooter was given an Islamic burial.
> 
> Until the leadership stops that practice, I don't think anything will change.



From what I have read, it's not all that easy - not that it should be - finding a final resting place for these guys. Understandably, the cemeteries don't want to turn their grave sites into a place for protesters or sympathizers to gather.

Apparently, there were similar concerns with the San Bernardino and Boston Marathon killers. 

Surprised they have not turned his flowers off yet at findagrave,
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=mateen&GSfn=omar+&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=166041382&df=all&


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> My understanding was that the shooter was given an Islamic burial.
> 
> Until the leadership stops that practice, I don't think anything will change.


Part of it, indeed - it's taking a while for the Catholic church a while to deal with the Mafia, so we're going to have to be patient ...


----------



## George Wallace

While the US is tied up in the Election race, trashing Donald Trump, and then the Orlando murders and the renewed Anti-gun campaign, Obama quietly did this:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Obama Transfers Accused bin Laden Bodyguard from Gitmo to Montenegro
> by WARNER TODD HUSTON, 26 Jun 2016
> 
> As President Obama’s last year in office winds down and he comes to the realization that he won’t be able to close the Guantanamo Bay terrorist detention facility like he promised in 2008, he’s been busy transferring inmates to other countries as a fallback plan. This month, Obama has sent Osama bin Laden’s alleged bodyguard to the country of Montenegro.
> Abdel Malik Ahmed Abdel Wahab al-Rahabi has been held at Gitmo for 14 years but will now get a change of scenery, with the administration deciding that the bin Laden associate is no longer a threat to the U.S. and recommending his transfer. And according to NBC News, the Department of Defense insists that the transfer is “consistent with appropriate security and humane treatment measures.
> 
> Announcing the move, the administration thanked the small Eastern European nation for taking the accused terrorist off America’s hands
> 
> Montenegro, a small country situated between Bosnia, and Herzegovina, and Albania, and across from Italy on the Adriatic Sea, said it would release al-Rahabi once it takes custody of him, allowing him to “return to his family.”
> 
> Al-Rahabi was detained in 2001 by Pakistani forces then transferred to Gitmo a month after his arrest.
> 
> Pentagon documents say the prisoner is related to bin Laden by marriage and was trained to hijack airliners and fly a suicide mission in conjunction with the 9/11 attacks. For whatever reason, the detainee never committed to the suicide mission.
> 
> Claiming to close the Guantanamo facility was one of the first actions Obama took when he first entered office in 2008 when he signed an Executive Order promising he would shut the facility down in the first year of his presidency.
> 
> Closing the detention center was one of Obama’s main campaign promises, but in spite of his promises and the Executive Order he immediately issued upon entering the White House, Obama never did shutter the facility. Instead, he began a campaign of transferring prisoners from the facility to nations that volunteered to take them.
> 
> But since he began his program of freeing prisoners by transferring them, well over 100 have simply returned to the battlefields to kill westerners in general and Americans in particular.
> 
> Follow Warner Todd Huston on Twitter @warnerthuston, or email the author at igcolonel@hotmail.com.



More on LINK.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I won't be surprised when this terrorist catch and release program comes back to bite the west one day.  I know there's already been other released goat humpers that dove right back in afterwards.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I hope that, while they were sleeping [  ] and unbeknownst to them, they were micro-chipped like the dogs (they are). Makes tracking ... and targeting ... easier  :nod:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I will be impressed with the moderate Muslims here, when I see non-segregated mosques and women not being harassed for not wearing a headcover when they pray.


----------



## ueo

Didn't/doesn't the Catholic church and others require women to have their heads covered befor entry? Just sayin'


----------



## George Wallace

ueo said:
			
		

> Didn't/doesn't the Catholic church and others require women to have their heads covered befor entry? Just sayin'



Ummmm? Not since the late '60's.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

They used to, but not anymore. However, how many Catholic women priests do you know?  ;D

Ah well! It's a slow process ...


----------



## dapaterson

Colin P said:
			
		

> I will be impressed with the moderate Muslims here, when I see non-segregated mosques and women not being harassed for not wearing a headcover when they pray.



How about women praying uncovered at the Western Wall?


----------



## ueo

Uncovered well maybe. Unsegregated-  that's another issue.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:
			
		

> How about women praying uncovered at the Western Wall?



I talking about Canada, where unlike most places in the Islamic world a women has equal rights and actually their segregation and covering requirement may actually be an infringement of their Charter Rights. Seems Churches here can't exclude Gays based on religious beliefs, not sure why women aren't pursuing this more strongly. (Note there is one group setting up mosques where men and women pray together and led at times by female Imans.


----------



## cupper

> Obama Transfers Accused bin Laden Bodyguard from Gitmo to Montenegro





			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I won't be surprised when this terrorist catch and release program comes back to bite the west one day.  I know there's already been other released goat humpers that dove right back in afterwards.



Hey, it's not like he can go back to doing what he was doing. He'll have to file for unemployment.  [


----------



## dapaterson

My point was that it's religious extremists that are the problem; not Islam in and of itself.  There are numerous reports of Orthodox Jews refusing to sit beside women on aircraft; some even wrap themselves in plastic bags because their aircraft will be flying over a graveyard - hardly the signs of a modern, rational mind, yet we give them a pass, but condemn anyone with a beard who goes to a mosque.


----------



## mariomike

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ; some even wrap themselves in plastic bags because their aircraft will be flying over a graveyard -


----------



## cupper

mariomike said:
			
		

> ; some even wrap themselves in plastic bags because their aircraft will be flying over a graveyard -



Don't they read the warnings on the side of the bag?


----------



## jollyjacktar

I suppose if they kick the bucket on the flight or get airsick it'll keep the cabin cleaner.  How thoughtful of them, awwww.


----------



## cavalryman

cupper said:
			
		

> Don't they read the warnings on the side of the bag?


It says keep away from babies or children.  No mention of grown men.   >


----------



## The Bread Guy

No official claim of responsibility yet, but a big attack in Turkey:


> A gun and bomb attack on Istanbul's Ataturk airport has killed 41 people, at least 13 of them foreigners, and injured more than 230, officials say.
> 
> Three attackers arrived in a taxi and began firing at the terminal entrance late on Tuesday. They blew themselves up after police fired back.
> 
> PM Binali Yildirim said early signs pointed to so-called Islamic State but no-one has so far admitted the attack.
> 
> *Recent bombings have been linked to either IS or Kurdish separatists* ...


As for the Kurds, here's a statement from their Regional Government:


> Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) has strongly condemned the terrorist attacks which killed 36 people and injured nearly 150 others at the Ataturk Airport of Istanbul, Turkey.
> 
> KRG Spokesperson Safin Dizayi delivered condolences to the people of Turkey, the families of the victims, and wished “rapid recovery” to the injured.
> 
> Two explosions overnight on Tuesday rocked Istanbul’s busiest airport, with three suicide bombers involved in the attack.
> 
> Since Kurdistan Region is at the forefront of the war on terrorism, it fully understands the sorrow brought to Turkey, Dizayi told KRG’s official website.
> 
> The Kurdish official reiterated that such a tragedy proves that terrorism is a global threat and it targets wherever it can reach. He stressed out that a greater international engagement in the anti-terrorism efforts is required to prevent such tragedies.


More on the blasts @ Google News here.


----------



## George Wallace

This has to be a new low; the lowest of lows really:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Palestinian, 19, Stabs 13-Year-Old to Death in West Bank Settlement
> The New York Times
> By DIAA HADID and MYRA NOVECKJUNE 30, 2016
> 
> JERUSALEM — A Palestinian teenager scrambled over a fence surrounding a Jewish settlement in the West Bank, ran into a house and stabbed an Israeli girl to death as she slept in her bed on Thursday morning.
> 
> The perpetrator, Mohammad Tarayreh, 19, was fatally shot after the attack. The victim, Hallel Yaffa Ariel, 13, had been sleeping in after staying up late for a dance performance the night before. Her father found her in her room, according to the Israeli news media and the head of the settlement’s volunteer security team.
> 
> The killing, in the Kiryat Arba settlement, was the latest in a series of attacks that surged in October and have left more than 30 Israelis dead. More than 210 Palestinians have also been killed, most while carrying out attacks or when thought to be about to do so.
> 
> Thursday’s attack was particularly gruesome.
> 
> Mr. Tarayreh, from Bani Naim, a sprawling town separated from Kiryat Arba by hills, a highway and a barrier surrounding the Jewish settlement, managed to cross over the fence early Thursday, Eyal Gelman, the head of the Kiryat Arba security team, told Israeli radio. He entered the Ariels’ house — it was unclear how — and locked himself in. The team of armed residents, including Hallel’s father, saw that the fence had been breached and began searching for the assailant.
> 
> “Everything happened very quickly,” Mr. Gelman said. Three of the volunteers managed to get into the locked house. Mr. Tarayreh attacked one of them with his knife, injuring him, Mr. Gelman said. Another volunteer shot and killed Mr. Tarayreh.
> 
> The volunteers, including Hallel’s father, rushed to the bedroom the girl appeared to have shared with her two younger sisters, who had already left for the day. Only Hallel was still lying in her bed. “I counted 18 stab wounds,” Mr. Gelman said.
> 
> A photograph released by the Israeli army showed the children’s bedroom — crammed with a bunk bed, another bed, a carpet and cushions — soaked in blood. Hallel died after she was rushed to a hospital in Jerusalem.
> 
> “My daughter was sleeping, calm, she was happy,” said her mother, Rina Ariel, weeping as she spoke to Israeli reporters from the hospital. “A terrorist comes and murders her in her bed.”
> 
> Ms. Ariel urged Israelis to come and console the family by visiting the contentious Jewish settlement. “Come, tell us that our Kiryat Arba is still a place possible to live in, not to die in, and continue our love of this place and the country,” she said. “Hallel, your memory will be blessed.”
> 
> Mr. Tarayreh may have been trying to emulate a young woman from his hometown, or perhaps to avenge her death. The woman, Majd al-Khudour, 18, rammed her car into a bus stop at the entrance of Kiryat Arba on Friday and was killed.
> 
> A Facebook group for news from Bani Naim posted screenshots that it claimed were from Mr. Tarayreh’s own Facebook page, in which he appeared to have posted a poem praising Ms. Khudour’s bravery the day after she was killed.
> 
> “Today the house wept, Majd, for you / for your absence, your family rings the bell of pain,” he wrote.
> 
> In another poem, posted on the same day, Mr. Tarayreh asked when he would die. “Grave, where are you? Why don’t you ask of me?” he wrote.
> 
> After the attack on Thursday, Israeli forces shuttered entrances to Bani Naim and raided the home of Mr. Tarayreh’s family. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced after a security meeting that the house would be destroyed and permits allowing the family to work in Israel withdrawn, and that the town would be cordoned off until further notice.
> 
> “The horrifying murder of a young girl in her bed underscores the bloodlust and inhumanity of the incitement-driven terrorists that we are facing,” Mr. Netanyahu said in a statement. He appeared to blame Palestinian leaders, accusing them of incitement “that leads to the murder of children in their beds.”
> 
> Spokesmen for Palestinian officials did not immediately respond to requests for comment. There were no claims of responsibility for the attack by Palestinian armed groups.
> 
> Hallel, the victim, was related to Uri Ariel, Israel’s right-wing housing minister, who is a cousin of Hallel’s father, Israeli news media reported. Mr. Ariel immediately pointed to her death as a call for more settlements in the West Bank, where Israel has maintained a nearly five-decade military occupation.
> 
> “It has to be clear that in the absence of a partner, that there will be Israeli sovereignty from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea,” he said after the killing. “We have to employ very tough deterrence measures, such as expulsion of families, ending monetary aid, seizing money.”
> 
> “By doing this, and by carrying out a fitting Zionist response by construction and planting, we will bring about more quiet in the region,” he said.
> 
> Sari Bashi, the country director for Human Rights Watch in Israel and the Palestinian territories, described the killing as “horrific.”
> 
> “There can be no justification, moral or legal, for killing an Israeli child as she sleeps in her bed,” Ms. Bashi said. “As despicable as the killing is, the Israeli government has no authority to punish the attacker’s family members, who committed no crime.”
> 
> Follow Diaa Hadid on Twitter @diaahadid.




More on LINK.

https://www.facebook.com/IsraeliPM/?fref=nf


----------



## AbdullahD

Somali Muslim men shot after playing basketball by Caucasian man.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/06/30/bias-motivated-shooting/

MINNEAPOLIS (WCCO) — Minneapolis police on Thursday confirmed they’re investigating the recent shooting of two Muslim men as a possible hate crime.

And on Thursday, the Council on American Islamic Relations is demanding swift action to find those responsible. Police went to 14th Avenue Southeast and 6th Street South early Wednesday morning because someone heard shots.

There were no victims, but police did recover some evidence. A short time later, two people with gunshot wounds showed up at the University of Minnesota hospital.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Somali Muslim men shot after playing basketball by Caucasian man.



That's a pretty weak attempt to drag this thread off topic.

Yea so someone who was allegedly Caucasian allegedly shot at a couple Muslims.  Did you read the story? Some pretty fishy parts in it.

Anyhow 49 people were just blown away in the name of ISIS.  

Keep your eye on the ball.


----------



## PuckChaser

Much like any Muslim shooting someone else, not every white person shooting someone of a different race is a hate crime.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> That's a pretty weak attempt to drag this thread off topic.
> 
> Yea so someone who was allegedly Caucasian allegedly shot at a couple Muslims.  Did you read the story? Some pretty fishy parts in it.
> 
> Anyhow 49 people were just blown away in the name of ISIS.
> 
> Keep your eye on the ball.



Uh huh. I forget did you actually reply to me last time I fully engaged you? Did you admit to being wrong last time someone debunked your opinion?

This IS NOT off topic any more then the post about the Palestinian. This is a topic regarding ISLAMIC Terrorism in the West and if you can not connect how perceived oppression or real and true oppression against Muslims is in part fueling terrorism then I can understand why you think I'm dragging this off topic.

Wether this is truly a hate crime or not is actually an academic discussion, but the fact off the matter is hate crimes against Muslims do happen, period and they are in part fuelling terrorism.

Abdullah

PS do note I didn't post something regarding Israel treatment of Palestinians or what have you here, because I feel that is not the "west". So I feel it shouldn't be in the thread unless has a direct connection.

Pss last I checked there was not a confirmed group backing these fools in turkey albeit I'll admit I am not completely up to date.


----------



## Loachman

I just went to my first Iftar dinner tonight, at the invitation of some of my Muslim neighbours, and had a very good time. About half of the attendees were non-Muslim. The food was good and plentiful, and the conversations were excellent. Much of the conversation revolved around the similarities between all people, and much of the rest revolved around the evil that a few perpetrate upon the many - my next-door neighbours are recently-arrived Syrian refugees, a Libyan fellow was sitting at my table, and there is an Egyptian family just down the street, and they've all experienced more of the latter than they'd like. The two oldest boys next door both have jobs already and are learning English quite quickly, and the whole family is thankful to be here and is working hard to fit into Canadian society.

That's all a bit off-topic, I suppose...


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Uh huh. I forget did you actually reply to me last time I fully engaged you?


No because:
1. It sounded like a bunch of excuses;
2 You signed off "take care Jarnhamar". That's you signing off the conversation and indicating you're done with the conversation. Was I supposed to take that as an invitation to continue the conversation?



> Did you admit to being wrong last time someone debunked your opinion?


You need more than one example among billions to debunk something. Sorry.



> This IS NOT off topic any more then the post about the Palestinian. This is a topic regarding ISLAMIC Terrorism in the West and if you can not connect how perceived oppression or real and true oppression against Muslims is in part fueling terrorism then I can understand why you think I'm dragging this off topic.


You're just going to shotgun stories of Muslims individually being victims.
This just in a Muslim got called a derogatory name. Totally a hate crime.



> Wether this is truly a hate crime or not is actually an academic discussion, but the fact off the matter is hate crimes against Muslims do happen, period and they are in part fuelling terrorism.


I had an "incident" today at A&W while in uniform by an American (I presume because he was bitching about his American money not being accepted and A&W being an American restaurant which pissed him of more when the cashier told him it was actually Canadian). The fellow had brown skin. That doesn't make me want to go out and murder people with brown skin.

The only thing that fuels terrorism is people choosing to be terrorists. 
Your story is so full of laissez-faire proof it's not funny.

Two Muslims got shot. They blame a mysterious caucasion man who approached them and made _obvious_ racist comments. But there's no evidence. This could have just as easily been a case of a drug deal gone wrong and the victims blaming Caucasians.

This story continues to have nothing to do with Islamic terrorism in the west.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> No because:
> 1. It sounded like a bunch of excuses;
> 2 You signed off "take care Jarnhamar". That's you signing off the conversation and indicating you're done with the conversation. Was I supposed to take that as an invitation to continue the conversation?



My bad I see how you got confused there. But your argument was made up on half of a sentence from one paragraph of one chapter of the Quran. Heck bud if I went around quoting half sentences of things you said and interpreting them however I wished, I could make you out to be a monster too.



> You need more than one example among billions to debunk something. Sorry.



You provided no proof for your position and I believe it was milnet who provided proof to the contrary and you did not try to back up your position. I call that debunked.



> You're just going to shotgun stories of Muslims individually being victims.



Um bud most hate crimes happen on individual basis. So yea if I was inclined to post every single thing it would kind of have to be. But how many stories of Muslims being victims have I posted thus far in my time on this forum? So just because I do something once, doesn't mean it will become a daily or weekly occurrence. But sometimes the other side of the story is important too.



> This just in a Muslim got called a derogatory name. Totally a hate crime.



These people got shot with a gun and your going off about name calling? Notice I didn't bring up the name calling, I brought up people getting shot. That is serious, period. Keep it apples to apples.



> I had an "incident" today at A&W while in uniform by an American (I presume because he was bitching about his American money not being accepted and A&W being an American restaurant which pissed him of more when the cashier told him it was actually Canadian). The fellow had brown skin. That doesn't make me want to go out and murder people with brown skin.



Wait a second am I reading this right, you work at A&W? Joking lol. Seriously not apples to apples here, some people do hate all Muslims because of extremists and wish us dead. This i have personally experienced. So what YOU would personally do is of no consequence because YOU are not everybody. These kids got shot, not insulted. 



> The only thing that fuels terrorism is people choosing to be terrorists.



I AGREE, BUT there are many things that lead up to people making that choice that if those things didn't exist that choice would not have been made. The world isn't black and white, every decision you make is from your previous experiences and biases without those things you would not make the decisions you make. So only looking at one aspect of the equation will give you flawed results, you need to look at everything.



> Your story is so full of laissez-faire proof it's not funny.



I wonder if someone posted an anti Muslim piece of the same caliber what you would think. Oh wait you take HALF a sentence from the Quran and think it represents the entire religion... now that is truly laughable.



> Two Muslims got shot. They blame a mysterious caucasion man who approached them and made _obvious_ racist comments. But there's no evidence. This could have just as easily been a case of a drug deal gone wrong and the victims blaming Caucasians.



MULTIPLE witnesses have the same story.. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. But how exactly do you get evidence on an immediate random verbal exchange? Or do you expect everyone to be packing phones and feel the need to record every bigoted incident? I don't and I have been called all sorts of things by drunks while working.



> This story continues to have nothing to do with Islamic terrorism in the west.



Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't connected. I feel it is connected and I posted it here. Hate crimes happen and denying them doesn't change it, so wether this one is or is not is academic because others do happen and it holds my point true.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> My bad I see how you got confused there. But your argument was made up on half of a sentence from one paragraph of one chapter of the Quran. Heck bud if I went around quoting half sentences of things you said and interpreting them however I wished,* I could make you out to be a monster too.*



But I am a monster  


> You provided no proof for your position and I believe it was milnet who provided proof to the contrary and you did not try to back up your position. I call that debunked.


A good example of a Muslim turning a peer in, to be sure.   1.8 million billion to go yes?
But really, we need more such examples.



> Um bud


Did you just buds me, chief?


> most hate crimes happen on individual basis. So yea if I was inclined to post every single thing it would kind of have to be. But how many stories of Muslims being victims have I posted thus far in my time on this forum? So just because I do something once, doesn't mean it will become a daily or weekly occurrence. But sometimes the other side of the story is important too.


Then don't turn this thread into a tit for tat back and forth about Caucasian vs Muslim, Muslim vs Caucasian.

Sorry Abdullah, I get what you're trying to say about Muslims being victims too and how being a serial victim can possibly turn one into a perpetrator but you posted a crappy story which was full of holes where a Muslim could be the culprit just as just as easily as a Caucasian. It says it in the story, there's no suspect.



> These people got shot with a gun and your going off about name calling? Notice I didn't bring up the name calling, I brought up people getting shot. That is serious, period. Keep it apples to apples.


Maybe we should make it about what kind of gun they got shot with and try to ban the gun in order to avoid similar crimes.
Why did they initially leave the scene again?



> I AGREE, BUT there are many things that lead up to people making that choice that if those things didn't exist that choice would not have been made. The world isn't black and white, every decision you make is from your previous experiences and biases without those things you would not make the decisions you make. So only looking at one aspect of the equation will give you flawed results, *you need to look at everything.*


I disagree. I don't believe I do. Someone chooses to be a terrorist so they're guilty of being a terrorist. I don't have an inclination to delve into their child hood.



> I wonder if someone posted an anti Muslim piece of the same caliber what you would think. Oh wait you take HALF a sentence from the Quran and think it represents the entire religion... now that is truly laughable.[/quote[
> A demon only tells the truth when it knows no one will believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MULTIPLE witnesses have the same story.. I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> 
> 
> I can get you 8 witnesses who will tell you I was with them tonight, even though I've been at home.
> 
> [quote
> But how exactly do you get evidence on an immediate random verbal exchange? Or do you expect everyone to be packing phones and feel the need to record every bigoted incident? I don't and I have been called all sorts of things by drunks while working.
Click to expand...

Tell me how many people you know who don't have cell phones.



> Just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't connected. I feel it is connected and I posted it here. Hate crimes happen and denying them doesn't change it, so wether this one is or is not is academic because others do happen and it holds my point true.


Just a story about two people being shot where it's being made out to be racially motivated with zero evidence sans eye witness accounts.

You know, the same eye witnesses accounts where a Muslim woman needs at least 4 to prove she was raped, not just one. Other wise she's getting a beat down.

Abdullah
[/quote]


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> But I am a monster



Oh, I doubt that 



> A good example of a Muslim turning a peer in, to be sure.   1.8 million billion to go yes?
> But really, we need more such examples.



Fair enough, but you still have not provided proof your claim is true  and frankly I believe I'd annoy everyone to hell if I started posting every instance I knew of or could find.



> Did you just buds me, chief?



Yea mate, I did. I consider bud, friend, mate, boss etc to be relatively neutral forms of address if you feel other wise let me know.



> Then don't turn this thread into a tit for tat back and forth about Caucasian vs Muslim, Muslim vs Caucasian.



I am not trying to. But some balance is warranted but tit for tat bs is childish IMHO... so sometimes I may slip up and act like a **** but generally speaking I'll avoid it.



> Sorry Abdullah, I get what you're trying to say about Muslims being victims too and how being a serial victim can possibly turn one into a perpetrator but you posted a crappy story which was full of holes where a Muslim could be the culprit just as just as easily as a Caucasian. It says it in the story, there's no suspect.



If my point has been conveyed then that is good, I felt the article was half decently solid... I have another one about a hijabi who got strip searched by police for running to catch a bus... would that be better? I talk ALL media reports with salt, no matter who they are supporting. But as stated I felt this one was and is solid.



> Maybe we should make it about what kind of gun they got shot with and try to ban the gun in order to avoid similar crimes.



Dear God don't give the antis the idea. Let's find the true reason (even if I'm wrong) and prosecute on that... I like my guns lol I can't go hunting without them lol



> Why did they initially leave the scene again?



I have no answer for this... maybe to go to the hospital *shrug*



> I disagree. I don't believe I do. Someone chooses to be a terrorist so they're guilty of being a terrorist. I don't have an inclination to delve into their child hood.



Once someone chooses to be a terrorist they should be treated and prosecuted as such. I'm just saying there are factors leading up to that point that if addressed could reduce the amount of easy recruits for terrorist organizations. 



> I can get you 8 witnesses who will tell you I was with them tonight, even though I've been at home.



Glad to know you have good friends and I see your point.



> Just a story about two people being shot where it's being made out to be racially motivated with zero evidence sans eye witness accounts.
> 
> You know, the same eye witnesses accounts where a Muslim woman needs at least 4 to prove she was raped, not just one. Other wise she's getting a beat down.



Remind me to get abu Layths lecture on that and post it here for you when I get to WiFi. But sometimes witnesses is all you get. I'm sure once a suspect is found and his past is looked at it will become more clear. If he has rascist tendencies then we can be more inclined to accept my side.. if not we may have to lean towards yours 

Abdullah 

PS you and Loachman may have to come over one year for iftar lol


----------



## Jarnhamar

Speaking of Somalia

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/somali-politician-with-canadian-citizenship-killed-in-al-shabaab-hotel-attack-1.3653654
Somali politician with Canadian citizenship killed in al-Shabaab hotel attack
 Jun 27, 2016 5:10 PM ET

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/06/26/somali-cabinet-minister-among-15-people-killed-in-hotel-attack.html

http://www.ucobserver.org/justice/2015/05/somali/

http://sahanjournal.com/third-somali-man-killed-canada-three-months/#.V3X876KS_Kk



Abdullah  if you don't mine me asking, are you actually in the process of joining the CF? Like, name submitted and being tested soon etc..


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Speaking of Somalia
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/somali-politician-with-canadian-citizenship-killed-in-al-shabaab-hotel-attack-1.3653654
> Somali politician with Canadian citizenship killed in al-Shabaab hotel attack
> Jun 27, 2016 5:10 PM ET
> 
> https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/06/26/somali-cabinet-minister-among-15-people-killed-in-hotel-attack.html
> 
> http://www.ucobserver.org/justice/2015/05/somali/
> 
> http://sahanjournal.com/third-somali-man-killed-canada-three-months/#.V3X876KS_Kk
> 
> 
> 
> Abdullah  if you don't mine me asking, are you actually in the process of joining the CF? Like, name submitted and being tested soon etc..



I don't mind at all, I have not submitted my application yet due to my upper body strength not being up to snuff yet. I have come quite a long way, but just a little bit farther to go. 

Once I am fit enough I will be applying for MSEOP (most likely). So don't worry I'm here to research the armed forces and what to expect, this thread just caught my eye.

Watching a show right now I'll review the links later.

Abdullah.


----------



## Loachman

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I'm just saying there are factors leading up to that point that if addressed could reduce the amount of easy recruits for terrorist organizations.



“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” – Yoda

"Food is the path to the light side. Food leads to togetherness. Togetherness leads to understanding. Understanding leads to more food". - Loachman

Many of those present last night had escaped decades of violence and conflict, and want no more of that. Perhaps, in time, when their ability to communicate better allows them to tell their stories, they will do so, and hopefully those who have never known fear, deprivation, and suffering will listen and learn.

Everyone with whom I spoke emphasized our common humanity, regardless of differences between cultures and religions, and that matches my view.

It is relatively easy to kill strangers whom one has been taught to fear and mistrust. It is harder to kill those with whom one has found commonality, and with whom one has eaten.

I am confident that these people will work to prevent any spark of radicalism that they encounter.

Similarly, I have met many of my former opponents since the Cold War ended, and I have enjoyed eating and drinking and comparing notes with them much more than I ever would have enjoyed shooting at them.



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> PS you and Loachman may have to come over one year for iftar lol



I was surprised by the invitation to last night's gathering, and honoured, and struck by the generosity and hospitality extended.

People rarely knock on the doors of strangers, especially those from different cultures and religions, and invite them to dinner in this country. I see these families gathering in the small park behind me every day and socializing, and compare that to "regular" people, who rush home from work and dive into online activities. We isolate ourselves a little too much, miss a lot because of that.

I do not know if we will ever meet, beyond this means, AbdullahD, but I hope so.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It heartens me, Loachman, to read some positive things about newcomers to Canada.  Hopefully they'll swiftly settle in and join the collective with the rest of us.  Happy Canada Day, everyone.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Loachman said:
			
		

> I just went to my first Iftar dinner tonight, at the invitation of some of my Muslim neighbours, and had a very good time. About half of the attendees were non-Muslim. The food was good and plentiful, and the conversations were excellent. Much of the conversation revolved around the similarities between all people, and much of the rest revolved around the evil that a few perpetrate upon the many - my next-door neighbours are recently-arrived Syrian refugees, a Libyan fellow was sitting at my table, and there is an Egyptian family just down the street, and they've all experienced more of the latter than they'd like. The two oldest boys next door both have jobs already and are learning English quite quickly, and the whole family is thankful to be here and is working hard to fit into Canadian society.
> 
> *That's all a bit off-topic, I suppose...*


Only off topic to some who may not want to hear that nuance ...

Also, well done for going - while some call for Muslims to do more, one wonders how many others would take up similar offers while saying they're not doing enough.


----------



## George Wallace

Loachman said:
			
		

> I just went to my first Iftar dinner tonight, at the invitation of some of my Muslim neighbours, and had a very good time. About half of the attendees were non-Muslim. The food was good and plentiful, and the conversations were excellent. Much of the conversation revolved around the similarities between all people, and much of the rest revolved around the evil that a few perpetrate upon the many - my next-door neighbours are recently-arrived Syrian refugees, a Libyan fellow was sitting at my table, and there is an Egyptian family just down the street, and they've all experienced more of the latter than they'd like. The two oldest boys next door both have jobs already and are learning English quite quickly, and the whole family is thankful to be here and is working hard to fit into Canadian society.
> 
> That's all a bit off-topic, I suppose...



Well said.  This is the side that is so rarely talked about, let alone reported on.

Perhaps we should create a split and have an "ISLAM, the other side." thread.  AbdullahD has already made a lot of informative posts in other threads to enlighten us on segments.


----------



## George Wallace

I am having a bit of a problem with the recent back and forth between AbdullahD and Jarnhamar.  It seems that the discussion was insinuating that Muslim = Black in this conversation.  I am sure that Muslims in Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. do not consider themselves as "Black".  The same as equating all Caucasians to being Christians.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I don't mind at all, I have not submitted my application yet due to my upper body strength not being up to snuff yet. I have come quite a long way, but just a little bit farther to go.


I think you'll be surprised, and maybe a bit angered, at how low the standards are for upper body strength. Unless you're built like a wet noodle I think you'll already be able to pass the FORCE test  ;D



> Watching a show right now I'll review the links later.
> 
> Abdullah.


Honestly I wouldn't even bother. It was just quickly searched examples of further violence against Somalians with unknown culprits which could or could not be from Caucasian people.

I'll try and clarify a bit.

The reason why I responded to your post (and sorry if I came across as a bit harsh) was because it very much came across to me like "look whites kill people too".  The only context you added was  "Somali Muslim men shot after playing basketball by Caucasian man." which isn't exactly accurate since the police don't even have a suspect in custody, it's alleged. 

Race-blaming isn't new. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith


The story also sounds like it could be the old "we were just innocently playing ball your honour and...".

False allegations can cause a lot of damage. Remember the example I gave pages ago about a friendly neighborhood tearing a woman apart and setting her on fire for false allegations?

People will use anything to justify their actions when the intent is already in their heart.


----------



## AbdullahD

I'm a 6 foot 4 inch guy and the force test is relatively easy for me to pass.. right now. But, I want to be fairly fit for basic. So I am going by stricter standards ie 20+ push-ups in a minute and at least 5-6 pull ups/chin ups.

I promised my wife if I didn't have a career by 30 I'd join and I'm one of those guys who keep their word. So I am doing everything I can to make the transition into the armed forces as easy as I can and not being the tub of lard lagging behind on runs or what have you 

Now I had about a 500 word essay written here and deleted it because it made no sense. But suffice to say I agree and realized my part in this fiasco.... but thanks for not making this an echo chamber.

Anywho I am not fasting today, because I am doing some traveling. So I am off to get coffee  *posted for a reason to continue to show the sharia isn't a brick wall lol*

Enjoyed the conversation, but today is a day of eating and sighting in a rifle. So I'll be back tomorrow, if another thread arises, I will tag into it too.

Abdullah


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Question for Abdullah,

It seems that there is a strong schism between those muslims who wish to be more inclusive such as those who invited Loachmen to dinner and those who would punish those muslims for acting in such a fashion (or those that killed that shopkeeper in the UK).

Can you elaborate on where that divide comes from?  As in where does it start? I assume as with all philosophies it starts with the teachers.  If that is true is there a practical way to promote the teachings of inclusiveness and eliminate the spread of ISIS-like prejudices?  


Many thanks, Matthew.


----------



## AbdullahD

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Question for Abdullah,
> 
> It seems that there is a strong schism between those muslims who wish to be more inclusive such as those who invited Loachmen to dinner and those who would punish those muslims for acting in such a fashion (or those that killed that shopkeeper in the UK).
> 
> Can you elaborate on where that divide comes from?  As in where does it start? I assume as with all philosophies it starts with the teachers.  If that is true is there a practical way to promote the teachings of inclusiveness and eliminate the spread of ISIS-like prejudices?
> 
> Many thanks, Matthew.



Good question Matthew, I will answer to the best of my ability. But please keep a few things in mind.

1; I am not an Islamic scholar
2; I have not studied social sciences
3; I have only traveled north America and only experienced the start of extremist tendencies in people but have not dealt with any full blown extremists or any extremists from the mid east or Africa. 
4; I can seem to '0' my hunting rifle with this new scope and I'm preoccupied with why that is. Aka I'm wondering if I need a new scope.

The start came 7-800 years ago and has been brewing and evolving ever since. One of the very first salafi's if not the first was ibn taymiyyah. His works is instrumental to the contemporary salafi movements, albeit many scholars are very critical of him and his ideology (I also follow the opinion that he had quite a few... wrong ideas. That were baseless.)

A quick bio about him;
 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

Now ibn taymiyyah amongst others who follow his ideology take hadith's from "ikrimah the liar" who is.. extreme in his narrations and thoroughly debunked by classical hadith narrators and classic scholar. But some contemporary scholars have designated him as a sound narrator which goes against a thousand or more years of scholars saying he was a weak, unreliable, liar. Which creates issues when religious rulings are involved.. in the last few hundred years (more so lately) you find more calls for death for crossing different religious boundaries that none of the accepted classical scholars called for capital punishment on.

Now this is only one facet of the ideological battle that is going on. There are more religious issues that exist between the classical and contemporary scholars such as niqab/burka vs hijab or what food is halal etc but for  simplicity sake I will stick with ikrimah the liar.

Now over the last few hundred years, the salafi movements have been gaining traction in the Islamic community, yes there are different kinds of salafis, if you didn't know which make it even harder to combat where needed.. because not all salafis need to be neutralized err eliminated... um corrected? Some of them are quite good to be honest... but I'm dealing in generalities and the small groups of salafis who don't have these flaws.. I won't bring up because it will take to long.

But here is a quick link if interested;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Now add to that the decentralization of the Muslim empire in the last 100 years, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire which left a power vacuum needing to be filled and the Sykes picot deal that had redrawn the borders in a most unfortunate way in my opinion.

The fall of the Ottoman empire;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_fall_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Quick read on the Sykes picot deal, but basically the divided ethnic, religious and linguistic groups and didn't care;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes–Picot_Agreement

Now onto why groups like Daesh have.. been born. they are simply a salafi movement and the salafi ideology has been receiving huge funding for the last 80 years or so.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

With the Saudi Arabian petro dollars funding thousands upon thousands of Islamic schools world wide this ideology has began seeping into the original four madhabs.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/madhab/bio.html

Some scholars from the four madhabs have become... confused on figh issues because of this worldwide funding and propagation of salafism. So we now have some hanafi scholars saying that killing apostates is obligatory, when abu Hanifa gave Lee way it in almost all cases by his actions and lack of criticism when leaders did not execute apostates.. because they have put so much money into funding their version of Islam.. which coincidentally is conveniently easier to radicalize people with, by power hungry dogs (not meaning to insult noble dogs at all).

So when you have contemporary Hanifa scholars going against classical hanafi scholars (which in Islam is a big no no) the people get confused and choose the third route. So even a lot of guys on the good team are unintentionally helping the bad team, by propagating these fatawas that call for death over stupid crap (even though they usually preface the stupid fatawas saying it only applies in Islamic countries).

Now how to combat this and spread the true message of Islam, that calls for all people to feel safe and to have peace in their lives wether they are Muslim or not...

We can go back to the basics and follow what our prophet taught and what the pious predecessors propagated. There is A LOT more I can supply then these two links  (which I barely checked lol) but I'm starting to wane.

http://seekershub.org/blog/2011/03/forty-hadiths-of-the-prophet-muhammad-lastprophetinfo/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Umar%27s_era

Now how to promote this... Christ if this post hasn't put me on hit list yet... this will lol. We have to stop Saudi dollars from propagating this crap. We have to seek out solid scholars who are following what the classical scholars taught and help them get their message out there however we can and in some cases protect them and keep them alive. Daesh violently and brutally murdered many Syrian scholars who taught true Islam by calling them kafrs. Just because the Islam they were teaching was gentle and loving (sorry this one hurts, they were great people). Every one scholar daesh murders hurts Islam more then one can imagine, because that particular knowledge dies. The war murdered one of the world greatest hadith scholars... just because he wouldn't propagate or accept their bs. He died rather then ruining Islam, people like him need to be protected. (I believe it was daesh but some critics say otherwise so I'll be neutral. None the less if their wasn't this war he wouldn't have died.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Said_Ramadan_Al-Bouti

We need to find muslims who care about Islam to study under these scholars or their kids to study under these scholars to save this knowledge before the extremist elements in the salafi movement eliminate them all. We (Muslims) need to pay for these scholars to have platforms to speak from and teach from. We have to ask the hard questions and get true answers from them to keep the fight going and show the kids an alternative Islam that teaches love not hate.

Basically, we need to fight for our religion in our homes, our mosques and our streets. But sadly to many people do not care and thus their kids take knowledge from any youtube shayk or Google mufti they find and then these problems persist. He'll maybe even our government should censor and blacklist all extremist speakers, to help the good guys... but freedom of speech and all won't allow it and to many Muslims have spent the last 50+ years thinking these lies are true so they will riot if you blacklist the fool who says to kill people who insult the prophet or what have you.

Dang it all I'm rambling. We are already doing a lot of these things outlined here, but we are out gunned and out manned right now and it kills me inside. I know for every dollar the good guys spend correcting this issue, those on the other side spend a thousand and these days money buys the minds and hearts of the young. 

So how to practically, quickly and effectively eliminate these perverse ideologies I have nothing and may God forgive me for not doing more.

I hope I made a little sense... I spent roughly 2 hours writing this lol

Abdullah

PS my salafi brothers I know not all of you guys are bad wallahi I know 

Pss the scholar in Syria I was thinking of I only knew as the "Shayk ul hadith of syria" but the chap I linked to looks like and sounds like him that I'm 99.99% sure it is the right guy.

And I also stress this is just my opinion, nothing more or less.

I think this should be my last clarification, some religious rulings that I have brought up need to be taken with the context of the actions of people of those times. Not just the fatawas of that time. This is another long discussion, but basically if no one was punished for doing xyz during those times by the order of the righteous Islamic leadership then we can rule it out as people 'needing' to be punished for doing xyz.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

First, thank you for taking so much of your time to reply.  I'm on smartphone at moment but will take time to read links when on laptop.

Based on your comments I wonder if I don't have at least a partial solution for Canada to push things in the right direction.

Have the CRA add a new Charter of Rights and Freedoms qualifier to the Religious Centre tax-exempt rule.

The key being that a religious centre SHOULD be doing good things for the country in exchange for tax-exempt status.

So....

1.  Each centre which is claiming tax exempt status must post a manifesto of beliefs including a public acceptance of other religions, races, genders and sexual orientations (ergo working towards the objectives of the Charter instead of against it).  If this public declaration is not made, tax exempt status is forfeited.
2.  In practice, seating and prayer areas must not be segregated.  If they are segregated, tax exempt status is forfeited.  I know the term "girl power" gets overused these days, but making all genders equal in prayer (and as such in the eyes of God) is a step in the right direction.
3.  In practice, each centre must co-host a social gathering with another centre of another faith once per quarter to build bonds.  Failure to do so will result in tax exempt status being forfeited.

The key being that most bigoted beliefs (with the important caveat that these exist in churches and synagogues as well as mosques) can only exist in ignorance.  If we force communication and cooperation between THE MEMBERS of all the religious centres, then a lot of that bigotry should dissipate.  It's clearly not 100% solution, but it could be a good start.

Anyone?


----------



## AbdullahD

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> First, thank you for taking so much of your time to reply.  I'm on smartphone at moment but will take time to read links when on laptop.



I feel your pain, I do everything on my phone.



> Based on your comments I wonder if I don't have at least a partial solution for Canada to push things in the right direction.
> 
> Have the CRA add a new Charter of Rights and Freedoms qualifier to the Religious Centre tax-exempt rule.



Very dangerous, but could work... with a whole lot of qualifiers...



> The key being that a religious centre SHOULD be doing good things for the country in exchange for tax-exempt status.
> 
> So....
> 
> 1.  Each centre which is claiming tax exempt status must post a manifesto of beliefs including a public acceptance of other religions, races, genders and sexual orientations (ergo working towards the objectives of the Charter instead of against it).  If this public declaration is not made, tax exempt status is forfeited.



I agree.. sadly only to an extent. The only place I disagree is why force people to adhere to a certain countries style of tolerance? Muslims do not agree with homosexuality so why potentially force them to promote it? But forcing them and other groups who disagree with it to be tolerant of other people's choices I agree with you. I.e we don't agree with all sexual orientations, but we won't ostracize you for it or some such thing.



> 2.  In practice, seating and prayer areas must not be segregated.  If they are segregated, tax exempt status is forfeited.  I know the term "girl power" gets overused these days, but making all genders equal in prayer (and as such in the eyes of God) is a step in the right direction.



See now this is were I likely won't make any friends here. But I should really make my wife write this part, because she is a Muslim equivalent of a feminist lol but I'll post my views... which I feel are supported.

Now first my err your problem, you will have to sell this to all the ladies who want to be segregated during prayer.

Now ladies should have the right to pray in the same room. But! Due to physical constraints sometimes that is an issue, see praying juma'ah  (Friday pray) is obligatory on men but not women, congregational prayer is highly encouraged for men but neutral for women. Then add that too the fact that woman have the privilege to request a separate Prayer room we start having large issues that a lot of mosques can not afford to fix.

Now we have VERY large segments of our ladies who wish to be completed segregated and who are we to tell them they HAVE to pray in the same room? (In this i follow a liberal opinion, it is a supported opinion but having trouble finding my proofs right now, but my opinion is women have the right to pray in the same room or separately whichever THEY prefer).

These links are not as substantiated as I like or following my exact opinion... but it should give an idea.

http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/08/the-penalty-box/

http://www.islamicity.org/3110/women-in-mosques/

See Muslims hold modesty in high regard as a value, but it is getting perverted. The ignorant mullahs and muslims refuse our women the right they have to education, to prayer in the main hall, to directly arguing their ideas, to eating together, to choosing their spouse etc thus making Islam more rigid then it is. Some of our greatest scholars were women, our greatest examples were women, we have great female warriors etc and yet... they HAVE to pray in some dusty dirty smelly room off to the side... it  is not supported and the counter arguments destroy the idea.

Now a person's physical location does not make them equal in prayer. Aisha ra's prayer is way better then mine same with Fatima ra, khadeejah ra etc but they don't believe (at least according to everything I know) that men and women should pray side by side during obligatory  'congragational' prayers. So during sunnah prayers, nawafil etc they should be able to pray wherever.

There is a few more, but this is a start into the major types of prayer if interested;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah

Now to give a fair shake to the rest of my post here I'll link this little prayer how to in case people don't know. 

https://islamqa.info/en/65847

Now the argument against men and women not praying side by side that I've heard is that men and women distract each other and that every means possible must be made to remove distractions while praying. So thus it is encouraged men pray towards the front because in most cases the prayer is obligatory for them and that women pray towards the back because in most cases it is optional for them to pray in congregation.

But that is not say that women are categorically forbidden from leading all prayers period. They can lead other women and kids etc also note how this link the last hadith is from that ikrimah guy.

http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/can_a_woman_be_imam.php

Also I will as my closing arguments on this particular point say that just because women can't lead us in prayer (in most cases), doesn't mean they can't be our war generals, our business ladies, our professors, our spiritual guides, our mayors or presidents etc etc etc... because they can. It's just in this one area segregation is encouraged to protect modesty and to reduce distractions.




> 3.  In practice, each centre must co-host a social gathering with another centre of another faith once per quarter to build bonds.  Failure to do so will result in tax exempt status being forfeited.



This i disagree with. Mainly because canada is a Christian nation and many cities and towns do not have multiple religions in it. So to force Christians  (or anyone else) to host another center of another faith once per quarter or lose tax exemption is quite harsh.

But having them partake in interfaith dialogue or other such things is not a bad idea at all, my good friend is on the Vernon BC Mosques board of directors and I know his family is big into that kind of stuff, but then again he is a powerhouse kind of guy and his wife is just as strong. They do a lot ie host school kids, do classes etc but here is the link to the interfaith canada group which is the group I believe they work with 

http://www.interfaithconversation.ca

Also once per quarter seems quite often... but then again I am lazy... and I also note not many new faces attend these interfaith functions. But trying to get these functions up and going to help promote dialogue is a good idea and maybe 4 times in larger centers isn't a bad thing... but I'm a small town guy and 4x a year would annoy a lot of people... plus it's costly so if your congregation is small and they have to host or Co host these functions it basically becomes a tax on them effectively. 



> The key being that most bigoted beliefs (with the important caveat that these exist in churches and synagogues as well as mosques) can only exist in ignorance.  If we force communication and cooperation between THE MEMBERS of all the religious centres, then a lot of that bigotry should dissipate.  It's clearly not 100% solution, but it could be a good start.
> 
> Anyone?



Ya know I do think you are on to something, but the tight line we have to walk is just because we don't agree or believe in something.. does not make those beliefs bigoted. Because a lot of times I hear calls to make it so women can not wear Islamic style clothes and it really makes a lot of muslim women sick. Because they are comfortable being covered and away from men while praying and they should have that liberty so to force something on someone who doesn't want it is wrong.

Now this does not address the issue that in Canada I do not believe that Islamic centers are the major cause of radicalization in the majority of cases. Yes a lot of them have screwed up beliefs, but most people can still be non violent with those weird beliefs systems 

In most cases I find that online propaganda or social groups outside of the Mosque are the largest causes of radicalization.  But that doesn't mean some mosques are not an issue, because I'm sure we have some bad ones. But the majority are not. 

The religious leaders or the de facto leaders in most   Muslim communities I know of work directly with csis  or the RCMP on  issues of radicalization and directly combat these issues. Furthermore I know of at least (read many) Muslims in almost every single mosque I've been to who would report to the RCMP if they heard someone spouting propaganda for daesh.

So yea, with a few amendments your idea could help... but it is a very dangerous idea... filled with many landmines.

Abdullah

PS just to make sure I'm clear, those who refuse women education, choice in choosing their spouse, coming to the Mosque etc are not practicing anything Islamic at all and should be shunned and I denounce those practices 100%

Pss shayk atabek and I agree on most things on some things I take different positions. So if interested feel free to watch his stuff... warning he is not in to short talks.

https://asharisassemble.com/sheikh-atabek-shukurov/


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## mariomike

July 03, 2016 

How close is too close to active-shootings? Hard question for Orlando paramedics 
http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/03/how-close-is-too-close-to-active-shootings-hard-question-for-orlando-paramedics
ORLANDO, Fla. -- When the first paramedics arrived on the scene of the Pulse nightclub shooting, they could still hear gunfire coming from inside the club. In active-shooting cases, recent federal guidelines call for medics to put on body armour and go into potentially dangerous situations alongside police officers when possible. But paramedics Josh Granada and Carlos Tavarez didn't have bullet-proof vests." 

"Could they have saved more lives if they had body armour..."


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## jollyjacktar

My question would be, why didn't they have body armour?   I would expect in Florida or any major American city for that matter that EMS personnel would be coming across calls that require that level of protection on a fairly consistent basis.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> 2.  In practice, seating and prayer areas must not be segregated.  If they are segregated, tax exempt status is forfeited.  I know the term "girl power" gets overused these days, but making all genders equal in prayer (and as such in the eyes of God) is a step in the right direction.


If this is going to be based on the Charter, how about making all genders equal in _officiation_ (women has as much of a chance to be clergy/officiants as men) as well as prayer to qualify for tax-exempt status?

After all, if Charter is going to supercede religion, let's be fair and include _ALL_ religions, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting point brought up by others around here ...


> FIRST, a three-part quiz:
> 
> Which Islamic country celebrates as a national hero a 15th-century Christian who battled Muslim invaders?
> 
> Which Islamic country is so pro-American it has a statue of Bill Clinton and a women’s clothing store named “Hillary” on Bill Klinton Boulevard?
> 
> Which Islamic country has had more citizens go abroad to fight for the Islamic State per capita than any other in Europe?
> 
> The answer to each question is Kosovo, in southeastern Europe — and therein lies a cautionary tale. Whenever there is a terrorist attack by Muslim extremists, we look to our enemies like the Islamic State or Al Qaeda. But perhaps we should also look to our “friends,” like Saudi Arabia ...


----------



## AbdullahD

Yea, the Wahhabi sect of salafism has reached kosovo. This one scholar I'm linking below is very popular amongst eastern europeans and he... promotes odd views to say the least.

I know this is not necessarily new information, I love my eastern European brothers.. but there are worrying trends. But having said that the majority of them follow the eastern European flavour of the hanafi school... it's just with the the repression of religion during communist rule in eastern Europe... it's left a bit of a gap for teaching. Still the majority are fine, just they hold quite  a few extremists. Exact numbers I did not know.

Also before everyone hates all Saudis. The vast majority of them are NOT salafi... the state has sponsored the salafi school of thought, but the majority are still Hanbali. It is just that the salafi school of thought have taken a lot from the Hanbali school. Also I heard from one Saudi uncle that allegedly the Saudi state has just recently started about thinking on promoting Hanbali thoughts over salafi thoughts and giving the four major madhabs (school of thoughts) A honest representation in their school systems. I don't have a link because this was told verbally to me I will Google it in a bit and edit in if I find something.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Nasiruddin_al-Albani

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulifta-deoband/78826

Not apologizing, just letting you guys know the Muslim community is aware of this too and we are working in it as well...

Abdullah


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## a_majoor

Just a comment on AbdullahD's posts.

Religion is protected from government interference by the Charter in Canada and the First Amendment in the United States for a reason. If the State gets to pick and choose "how" people worship then they are not much different from ISIS so called Caliphate, or the situation in Europe during the 30 years war. The oppression also isn't going to be limited to Islam, in the 1980's Canada was essentially a battleground between Indian Hindu and Sikh factions, and in the 90's the Hindu LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam) were operation in Canada against the Bhuddist Sinhalese Siri Lankans. Should *we* start taking sides or trying to segregate or disaggregate people by their religious affiliation? Which branch of the Shik religion should be deemed "responsible"? If we are "for" the Hindus in the 1980's do we go "against" them in the 1990's?

A much better solution is to do more of what we are doing: enhanced intelligence and law enforcement against known and suspected _individuals_ here, and tracking the terrorist organizations and cells here and abroad. On a larger scale, it wouldn't be a stretch to use PSYOPS messaging techniques to counter the messages that extremist groups put forth. Target selectively, not indiscriminately.


----------



## mariomike

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> My question would be, why didn't they have body armour?  I would expect in Florida or any major American city for that matter that EMS personnel would be coming across calls that require that level of protection on a fairly consistent basis.



That seems to be a question many are asking. Not just in Orlando, but in cities across North America.


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## Colin Parkinson

A attack in Malaysia has been linked to ISIS, the beginning of a bad time I am afraid. AQ used to stay in Malaysia, but I suspect they had a deal with Special Branch; “You don’t cause trouble and we don’t look to hard” AQ treated Malaysia as a R&R place. It will become a prime battleground for the ISIS types as they can’t stand the thought of Muslim living side by side with unbelievers and any form of accommodation.

As for mosques here, I believe that every one of them should be required to have a communal mixed prayer area as the primary space, perhaps 2 small rooms for both male and female with TV’s showing the Iman. Also women need to have the choice whether to cover their hair or not. Any form of harassment for praying together or not covering their head, should be treated as discrimination and have the police lay charges. The only way to get rid of the cockroaches is to shine a bright light and leave no shadows. The segregation and head covering is contrary to the values of this country and people are going to have to accept that. People are to fearful to take on the radicals on their own and I suspect government is going to need to get involved.


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## AbdullahD

Words do not convey my rage. Murdering people at Islam's holiest site and they have the gall to call themselves Muslim.  These pos... I'll stop.

https://www.rt.com/news/349472-blast-saudi-arabia-medina/


----------



## Jed

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Just a comment on AbdullahD's posts.
> 
> Religion is protected from government interference by the Charter in Canada and the First Amendment in the United States for a reason. If the State gets to pick and choose "how" people worship then they are not much different from ISIS so called Caliphate, or the situation in Europe during the 30 years war. The oppression also isn't going to be limited to Islam, in the 1980's Canada was essentially a battleground between Indian Hindu and Sikh factions, and in the 90's the Hindu LTTE (Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam) were operation in Canada against the Bhuddist Sinhalese Siri Lankans. Should *we* start taking sides or trying to segregate or disaggregate people by their religious affiliation? Which branch of the Shik religion should be deemed "responsible"? If we are "for" the Hindus in the 1980's do we go "against" them in the 1990's?
> 
> A much better solution is to do more of what we are doing: enhanced intelligence and law enforcement against known and suspected _individuals_ here, and tracking the terrorist organizations and cells here and abroad. On a larger scale, it wouldn't be a stretch to use PSYOPS messaging techniques to counter the messages that extremist groups put forth. Target selectively, not indiscriminately.



Just a thought; To target selectively, profiling is a necessity, as well as properly identifying the problem group by name.


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## jollyjacktar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Words do not convey my rage. Murdering people at Islam's holiest site and they have the gall to call themselves Muslim.  These pos... I'll stop.
> 
> https://www.rt.com/news/349472-blast-saudi-arabia-medina/



Sad to say, but Aubdullah the only folks who'll be able to stop the madmen are Muslims themselves.  That won't happen though until they reach the point that enough is enough by the masses.  Only then will they turn on those within who are dragging them down and shut that shit down for good.  What it will it take to reach that flashpoint???  Who knows, I can't imagine what depths of depravity they'll need to plunge to before everyone snaps and curb stomps them to death for good as the tolerance for obscene acts seems to be sky high...


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## Colin Parkinson

Not the first time either, Grand Mosque in 1979 and then before it a bunch of terrorists captured it in 1924. Also going back they had held it from 1744 till their bloody reign was removed by force in 1818. Sadly the Ottomans were never able to wipe out the house of Saud and the Whabbists.


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## jollyjacktar

Perhaps if the Ottomans hadn't taken up with the Central Powers, they wouldn't have been crushed and might have been able to stop the House of Saud from rising and their Whabbist shitheads from spreading poison.


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## a_majoor

Jed said:
			
		

> Just a thought; To target selectively, profiling is a necessity, as well as properly identifying the problem group by name.



The objection I am raising is that some of these schemes are indiscriminate. To use an example, the Sikh religion has several subjects (like Islam or Christianity). Do you know *which* sect is responsible for carrying out attacks in India? The idea that all Muslims should be forced to pray in a single prayer room  because *some* Muslims are misogynists is equally indiscriminate. How would you like someone to tell you how your ouse of worship should be laid out, how the Liturgy be read or even if congregations be segregated or not? The last example is exactly the sort of thing which happened during the religious wars in Europe (everything from Henry VIII overthrowing the Catholic Church in England to the 30 years war in central Europe).

So certainly use profiling to help target the people who need to be targeted, but make sure the targeting is very precise and selective.


----------



## GAP

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Perhaps if the Ottomans hadn't taken up with the Central Powers, they wouldn't have been crushed and might have been able to stop the House of Saud from rising and their Whabbist shitheads from spreading poison.



I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The objection I am raising is that some of these schemes are indiscriminate. To use an example, the Sikh religion has several subjects (like Islam or Christianity). Do you know *which* sect is responsible for carrying out attacks in India? The idea that all Muslims should be forced to pray in a single prayer room  because *some* Muslims are misogynists is equally indiscriminate. How would you like someone to tell you how your ouse of worship should be laid out, how the Liturgy be read or even if congregations be segregated or not? The last example is exactly the sort of thing which happened during the religious wars in Europe (everything from Henry VIII overthrowing the Catholic Church in England to the 30 years war in central Europe).
> 
> So certainly use profiling to help target the people who need to be targeted, but make sure the targeting is very precise and selective.



Except that the Whabbists have hellbent in basically eliminated any other version in Sunni Islam for the last 50 years and have been very successful at it. I suspect the majority of Sunni Muslim could not tell you “which school of belief they belong to”. The Whabbists have been doing a very good job of “boiling the frog slowly”. I am afraid that half measures are not going to cut it at this point. I also think that all mosques need to publish their sermons on a public website, which I think the government can host. This again removes part of the veil the fundamentalist use. If you look at methodology the mosque is the key factor in maintaining the cohesion that has allowed fundamentalist groups to survive and thrive even in oppressive regimes. For the non-segregated prayers, give them a timeframe to comply, but stick to it.  

With the Shia’s you need to more selective as the extent of the Iranian Mullahs is not as widespread.


----------



## jollyjacktar

GAP said:
			
		

> I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:



I think they're somewhat the opposite sides of the same coin.  Albeit, missionaries from another age perhaps.   But then, the mindset of the Whabbist dicks is from a thousand years ago too.


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## The Bread Guy

GAP said:
			
		

> I keep wondering what the difference between them and christian ministries setting out to convert the world. Some, most were well intentioned, but there were some that were right out there..... :2c:


At one level, you're right -- but some of Canada's churches have apologized for well-intentioned policies of the past (while others are still a bit ... hesitant ... about a blanket apology), so even _they_ realize hindsight is 20-20.


----------



## a_majoor

Colin P said:
			
		

> Except that the Whabbists have hellbent in basically eliminated any other version in Sunni Islam for the last 50 years and have been very successful at it. I suspect the majority of Sunni Muslim could not tell you “which school of belief they belong to”. The Whabbists have been doing a very good job of “boiling the frog slowly”. I am afraid that half measures are not going to cut it at this point. I also think that all mosques need to publish their sermons on a public website, which I think the government can host. This again removes part of the veil the fundamentalist use. If you look at methodology the mosque is the key factor in maintaining the cohesion that has allowed fundamentalist groups to survive and thrive even in oppressive regimes. For the non-segregated prayers, give them a timeframe to comply, but stick to it.
> 
> With the Shia’s you need to more selective as the extent of the Iranian Mullahs is not as widespread.



Sunni Muslims will have to answer the question as to what school they belong to, but blanket provisions like you are proposing are much like gun control advocates telling us that everyone who has a firearm is dangerous and must be disarmed. And if mosques need to publish sermons, what about churches, synagogues and temples? If I do home bible study, am I obligated to publish what verse I am reading? Where does it end?

The surveillance state being built on fears of terrorism is large, intrusive, expensive and intrudes on all our liberties enough, even though it is unable to stop "home grown" terrorists. It is also quite conceivable that with a change to the definition of who is a terrorist or what constitutes terrorism, the state can be turned against anyone. This is most certainly a road I do not want to go down, and I'm pretty sure most people would not make that choice willingly either.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Sunni Muslims will have to answer the question as to what school they belong to..



It would be interesting if we made the same question for our Shia brethren too... because they have schools of thoughts and sects too... and I doubt they can answer either.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

The majority of Muslims are hanafi and many don't know it due to the fact... it really is not that important on a day to day basis. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi 

So should we also ask them what type of salafi they are?
Ie Madkali Salafis, Saudi Salafis, Jihadi Salafis, Qutubis, Sururis, Modernist Salafis, Murji Salafis, Talafis, takfiris, etc because identifying wether they are a risk to others need that identifier... albeit many would not be able to tell us.

But then again we could get real deep and ask what type of hanafi too... aka Arab hanafi, barelvi, deobandi etc

What is important is eradicating extremist ideologies. Because there are salafi and other ideologies that are generally considered extreme that have passive branches. So eradicating radicals in all forms is important because there are radical Hanafi branches as well (albeit they are typically very much smaller).



> ..but blanket provisions like you are proposing are much like gun control advocates telling us that everyone who has a firearm is dangerous and must be disarmed.



Good point.



> And if mosques need to publish sermons, what about churches, synagogues and temples? If I do home bible study, am I obligated to publish what verse I am reading? Where does it end?



See I'm an advocate of mosques optionally recording and uploading Friday Khutba's (sermons) because it would be great in dispelling myths about Islam.  But the difference in optional vs obligatory is huge, a quick Google search will show many many Friday Khutba's available online. I also find extremists fools tend to love to upload their radical Khutba's, it is just finding those hate speeches and reporting them and getting them prosecuted.



> The surveillance state being built on fears of terrorism is large, intrusive, expensive and intrudes on all our liberties enough, even though it is unable to stop "home grown" terrorists. It is also quite conceivable that with a change to the definition of who is a terrorist or what constitutes terrorism, the state can be turned against anyone. This is most certainly a road I do not want to go down, and I'm pretty sure most people would not make that choice willingly either.



It reminds me of that saying to the effect; that first they came for the so and so and then they came for so and so and when they came for you, no one was left to help. Someone can give it properly but the gist of it is their.

It is a slippery slope of demonization, I agree I do not want to go down this road... but we *may* have already started down it.

Abdullah

PS I defended salafis a little bit, because I felt bad at how harsh I criticized them the other day. They are not just one group, only some salafis are the issue a lot of them are great people.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Insert 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' for any of the two warring sides mentioned above and you'd have a pretty good description of the situation in Northern Ireland. You know a modern, first world, western state that continues to struggle with terrorists even though they elected a bunch of them to power a few years ago.

IMHO, this is likely the dawn of a new 100 years' war and we'll probably look back upon these as the 'good old days'.


----------



## mariomike

July 10, 2016

Osama bin Laden's son vows to avenge his father's death
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/osama-bin-laden-son-hamza-vows-to-avenge-fathers-death/
BEIRUT - Al Qaeda's media arm has released an audio in which the purported son of the late al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden threatens revenge against the U.S. for assassinating his father.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Insert 'Catholic' and 'Protestant' for any of the two warring sides mentioned above and you'd have a pretty good description of the situation in Northern Ireland. You know a modern, first world, western state that continues to struggle with terrorists even though they elected a bunch of them to power a few years ago.
> 
> IMHO, this is likely the dawn of a new 100 years' war and we'll probably look back upon these as the 'good old days'.



Well, if we're going to end up in Canada's streets, fighting religious fanatics, I want it to happen now. While I can still see enough to sight my rifle and while I'm mobile enough to run between buildings. I don't want my daughter and grandson growing up having to do it or living under sharia.


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, if we're going to end up in Canada's streets, fighting religious fanatics, I want it to happen now. While I can still see enough to sight my rifle and while I'm mobile enough to run between buildings. I don't want my daughter and grandson growing up having to do it or living under sharia.



With some proper landscaping and some tactically minded renos to the house, you can really make you home your castle; with good lines of sight into your funneled kill zones.  Plus, with some more info from the "preparations for the Zombie Apocalypse" thread, you don't have to worry so much about losing your age related speed, agility, and mobility.   >   [


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, if we're going to end up in Canada's streets, fighting religious fanatics, I want it to happen now. While I can still see enough to sight my rifle and while I'm mobile enough to run between buildings. I don't want my daughter and grandson growing up having to do it or living under sharia.



 :goodpost:



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> July 10, 2016
> 
> Osama bin Laden's son vows to avenge his father's death
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/osama-bin-laden-son-hamza-vows-to-avenge-fathers-death/
> BEIRUT - Al Qaeda's media arm has released an audio in which the purported son of the late al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden threatens revenge against the U.S. for assassinating his father.



If he's itching for it, I'm sure the Seals can arrange for Jr. to follow in Daddy's footsteps.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> With some proper landscaping and some tactically minded renos to the house, you can really make you home your castle; with good lines of sight into your funneled kill zones.  Plus, with some more info from the "preparations for the Zombie Apocalypse" thread, you don't have to worry so much about losing your age related speed, agility, and mobility.   >   [



Here's your training film [ https://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=C211CA1056D20151212&p=omega+man


----------



## George Wallace

Ah!   The Omega Man.   [

Good planning and preparation is never wasted.

 [


----------



## mariomike

Regarding the Orlando Massacre,

July 12, 2016

Did Florida follow FDLE's rules on terrorism after Pulse so Paramedics could get to patients?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-pulse-fdle-terrorist-response-071216-20160712-story.html
After the terror attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Florida conducted 14 regional terror-response exercises during 2002-2004 under the guidance of FDLE and myself, the chief of Domestic Security. The average response time was more than three hours from arrival of responders at an exercise terrorist-attack site to the beginning of the rescue of the victims of the attack.

G. Stephen Lauer was the first chief of Florida Domestic Security from 2001 to 2004.


----------



## OldSolduer

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, if we're going to end up in Canada's streets, fighting religious fanatics, I want it to happen now. While I can still see enough to sight my rifle and while I'm mobile enough to run between buildings. I don't want my daughter and grandson growing up having to do it or living under sharia.



I'll be your fire team partner. Despite my age I can still shoot n scoot.


----------



## mariomike

FDNY Center for Terrorism & Disaster Preparedness Presentation on the Orlando Terror Attack 
https://info.publicintelligence.net/FDNY-OrlandoAttack.pdf

Key Takeaways

1) Delayed medical response
Emergency medical attention to gunshot victims was delayed when police units withdrew from the building.
Threat of secondary explosive devices led to withdrawal of responders.
Paramedics were denied entry to the building.
Needed PD force protection to make entry
Remained at staging area out of blast range
No triage and rapid treatment was attempted
Critically wounded victims received no treatment for 3 hours
Of 66 people found inside, only 17 survived

2) Venues as soft targets
3 ) Military-style equipment
4) Electronic messaging
5) MCI at the Firehouse
Decision made to wait inside firehouse until armed police could be seen outside.
Once assured of safety, firefighters opened doors and provided care.
Triage was set up across the street from firehouse.
When shooting victims arrived at the firehouse, the doors stayed down and they waited for police.


Al Qaeda Offers its Insight
AQ issued a bulletin to celebrate the Orlando attack and analyze tactics for future “Lone Jihadists”
AQ’s benefits of targeting “general gatherings”
Enclosed area made it easy to “chase and hunt targets”
Late night timing ensured targets were drunk
Enabled him to “take many hostages and lengthen the battle for as long as possible…so the whole world listened”
AQ’s future recommendations
Add homemade explosives to gunfire to maximize death toll
Attack “areas where the Anglo-Saxon community is generally concentrated”
Recent video shows ISIS flag over the Las Vegas strip

Lots more in the presentation, if interested.

Edit to add,

ISIS Video calls For San Francisco, Las Vegas Attacks
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/video/category/news-international-news/3422401-isis-video-calls-for-san-francisco-las-vegas-attacks/


----------



## AbdullahD

This is a good sign, if Saudi continues to distances itself from the wahabi sect it could have good implications throughout the world. (Since Salafi/Wahabi terrorism is a significant threat I posted it here).

http://www.islamicpluralism.org/2588/saudis-announce-a-turn-away-from-wahhabi-cultural


----------



## daftandbarmy

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> This is a good sign, if Saudi continues to distances itself from the wahabi sect it could have good implications throughout the world. (Since Salafi/Wahabi terrorism is a significant threat I posted it here).
> 
> http://www.islamicpluralism.org/2588/saudis-announce-a-turn-away-from-wahhabi-cultural



Yeah, they've been working on that project since the 18th Century. Let me know how that works out....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism


----------



## AbdullahD

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Yeah, they've been working on that project since the 18th Century. Let me know how that works out....
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism



I miss your point I think... you have linked to a definition and history of Wahabi fiqh... whereas my article I posted is showing that Saudi may be drifting away from the wahabi fiqh... which would be a good thing for global terrorim.

I understand where the wahabis came from and how it is 200 or so years old in its current form (800 years or so if you go back to the roots...).

But I am not sure exactly what your point is in context of the link and comment I have made... Sorry...


----------



## jollyjacktar

CBC say several wounded   I'm sure more bad news is coming.   And more of this shit too.  Europe will go nuts one of these days with a major backlash I fear.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another attack in Germany.  A Syrian refugee hacked a pregnant woman to death with a machete.  Merkel will find more pressure on her as more of these things happen.  That's what they will get from allowing all these fighting aged males into Europe too.  Apparently a man passing by in his BMW saw what was going on and ran the fucker over with his car... well done. 

"BREAKING NEWS: Machete-wielding Syrian refugee, 21, hacks PREGNANT woman to death in the street and injures two others in latest horror to rock Germany 
- Syrian refugee, aged 21, went on a machete rampage in the city Reutlingen, Germany near to a doner kebab stand
- He killed one woman and injured a man and another woman in the attack before being detained by the police 
- The motive for the attack is unclear but it has been reported he had a dispute with the woman before he killed her


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3705823/Machete-wielding-attacker-kills-woman-injures-two-new-German-outrage.html#ixzz4FLiQjXnF 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"


----------



## The Bread Guy

Holy Fack in Germany - usual initial report caveats apply ...

_"Police in the town of Ansbach west of Nuremburg have said a man was killed when an explosive device he was believed to be carrying detonated near an open-air music festival. Twelve people were injured, three seriously ..."_ (Deutsche Welle -- German public broadcasting)
_"Reuters: twelve people injured, three seriously, in Ansbach blast -- There is no evidence yet that the person who died was a suicide bomber, the police added ..."_ (TASS -- Russian state media)
More via Google News here.


----------



## tomahawk6

How many more of these attacks will the citizens of Europe tolerate ?


----------



## jmt18325

This is madness - Europe is quickly spiraling into a tamer (for now) version of the middle east.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I continually find a common thread in the reporting of these instances now.  The different news agencies seem to trip over themselves to point out that there is no link to ISIS or Islamic Terrorism ect ect.  Until of course it is undeniable. 

How long can they live in the denial that while these perps may not be card carrying members of ________ Islamic Terrorist Org they are acting in said orgs name and goal ?

Watching globalism and liberalism destroy itself is getting scarier every day...


----------



## blacktriangle

Mass migration will continue to  subvert Western European societies. They will basically be forced to submit in the long run. I feel the most for the children and future generations (especially the women) as they never had a say in the matter. 

Oh and news flash - we're next.


----------



## Lightguns

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Mass migration will continue to  subvert Western European societies. They will basically be forced to submit in the long run. I feel the most for the children and future generations (especially the women) as they never had a say in the matter.
> 
> Oh and news flash - we're next.



The reality is that we are 7 billion parasites sucking up every animal, mineral and plant we can lay hands on to make our own personal space more comfortable.  The planet is capable, by some estimates, to be able to ration 10.3 billion of us provided we do not build anymore sub-divisions on anymore farmland and put all farmland into intensive use AND fully cooperate internationally.  Yes we are next and we have likely already lost but us 25 plus folks will likely not see the surrender.


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Holy Fack in Germany - usual initial report caveats apply ...
> 
> _"Police in the town of Ansbach west of Nuremburg have said a man was killed when an explosive device he was believed to be carrying detonated near an open-air music festival. Twelve people were injured, three seriously ..."_ (Deutsche Welle -- German public broadcasting)
> (...)


The latest:  mental illness + ISIL/ISIS ...

_"Ansbach attacker: Asylum seeker to IS suicide bomber"_ (BBC)
_"Bavarian bomber pledged allegiance to Islamic State: minister"_ (Reuters)
_"Syrian suicide bomber in Germany 'had history of mental illness' "_ (RTÉ News, Ireland)
Meanwhile ...


> In remarks published in the "Welt am Sonntag" newspaper Sunday, *Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann advocated for the army to be allowed to deploy within Germany to support the police in case of a terror attack.*
> 
> Germany's constitution, drawn up in the aftermath of World War II, places strict limits on the use of the military, the Bundeswehr, within the country's borders. Those regulations were now obsolete, Herrmann said.
> 
> "We have an absolutely stable democracy in our country," he said. "It would be completely incomprehensible… if we had a terrorist situation like Brussels in Frankfurt, Stuttgart or Munich and we were not permitted to call in the well-trained forces of the Bundeswehr, even though they stand ready."
> 
> In most European countries that was the case without question, he said ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

As far as I'm concerned, anyone, who would listen to, give credence to or join daesh and the like show signs of serious mental retardation.  Without exception.


----------



## tomahawk6

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, anyone, who would listen to, give credence to or join daesh and the like show signs of serious mental retardation.  Without exception.



Or is a fanatic.


----------



## jollyjacktar

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Or is a fanatic.



Retards, by another name.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another terrorist attack in France.  

Priest, 86, is 'beheaded' by two 'Islamic knifemen' after taking nuns and worshippers hostage at French church before police shoot them both dead and search building for explosives 
Priest had throat cut after knifemen burst into Normandy church at 9am
Both attackers shot dead by police and another hostage is fighting for life
At least one knifeman was dressed in Islamic clothing, French media report
Vatican condemns 'barbaric' killing as anti-terror investigation is launched


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3708394/Two-men-armed-knives-people-hostage-French-church.html#ixzz4FVpJclgN 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> As far as I'm concerned, anyone, who would listen to, give credence to or join daesh and the like show signs of serious mental retardation.  Without exception.


Problem is:  what do you call someone who's unstable in general, doesn't get the help s/he needs, then latches on to AQ/ISIS/whatever?


			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Another terrorist attack in France ...


More from Google News on this one here.


----------



## jollyjacktar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Problem is:  what do you call someone who's unstable in general, doesn't get the help s/he needs, then latches on to AQ/ISIS/whatever?



Fair enough.  Mentally ill then, that should be broad stroked enough to take in all the various mental defects one would need to believe what, AQ/ISIS/whatever, believes in faith as truth.


----------



## Halifax Tar

*Church hostage situation in France ends with priest, 2 attackers dead*

Two attackers took hostages inside a French church during morning mass on Tuesday near the city of Rouen, killing a priest by slitting his throat before being shot and killed by police, French officials said.

ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attack.

More at link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/france-hostage-church-1.3695017


----------



## Jarnhamar

Sure ISIS sounds bad but we're not even at war with them.  We really should be worried about Russians.  Don't forget if we kill ISIS members they win.


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Problem is:  what do you call someone who's unstable in general, doesn't get the help s/he needs, then latches on to AQ/ISIS/whatever?More from Google News on this one here.



I've taken to referring to them as 'radicalized losers'. Socioeconomic failures; the dude in his 30s whose family comes apart and who loses his dead end job, etc. The early 20s social recluse who holds a grudge. Used to be these guys would shoot up their workplace or college, but now they're being sought out and latched on to by ideological attack planners, and being convinced they can redeem some meaning in their life with an act of martyrdom to a recently (re)discovered faith.

A theory on my part, but I think it holds water. Unfortunately the only real fix is for society to do its best to mitigate the factors that push individual members of already at-risk minority communities into that degree of nihilism.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've taken to referring to them as 'radicalized losers' ...


Maybe (only) a _touch_ harsh, but that feels like at least a reasonable fit.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> ... the only real fix is for society to do its best to mitigate the factors that push individual members of already at-risk minority communities into that degree of nihilism.


And that's what makes it hard to solve, like "curing" suicide in society - LOTS of levers that may need jiggling at the same time.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Sure ISIS sounds bad but we're not even at war with them.  We really should be worried about Russians.  Don't forget if we kill ISIS members they win.



Listen... the cold warriors are tired of asymmetric ops and want to get back to real soldiering and reliving glories from the 1980's. Get on the train


----------



## YZT580

"they're being sought out and latched on to by ideological attack planners"  You are correct, we cannot win by trying to intercept every radical.  It is like playing wack a mole.  So go after the ideological attack planners and eliminate them, totally.  As Hollande has declared in France, declare war on ISIS and go after them with everything in the arsenal.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> *Church hostage situation in France ends with priest, 2 attackers dead*
> 
> Two attackers took hostages inside a French church during morning mass on Tuesday near the city of Rouen, killing a priest by slitting his throat before being shot and killed by police, French officials said.
> 
> ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attack ...


Get this ...


> Security forces in France are again in the spotlight after it emerged *one of the men behind the murder of a priest in Normandy was wearing an electronic tag. It is now known that Adel Kermiche twice attempted to travel to Syria and was under house arrest. The tag was turned off for a few hours each morning to allow him to leave home - and it was in this time that Kermiche and another attacker slit 86-year-old Father Jacques Hamel's throat*. Both men were shot dead by police but no details of the second man have yet emerged ...


I know there's got to be more to this than just what we read, especially out of initial reports, but _really_?   :facepalm:


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good article.



> Jihadi France: A dark colonial past. Ghettoes. The threat of an Islamic insurgency... and this is just the beginning of unprecedented bloodshed
> 
> By John R Bradley For The Daily Mail
> 
> Published: 00:18 GMT, 28 July 2016  | Updated: 09:16 GMT, 28 July 2016
> 
> The statistics are stomach-churning: almost 250 innocents have been murdered in France in the past 18 months by terrorists — more than the total number of French nationals killed by them in the entire 20th century.
> 
> But as the country reels from the latest ISIS atrocity — the beheading of a beloved elderly priest at the altar of his Catholic church in a quiet Normandy village — the fear is that this wave of unprecedented bloodshed marks only the opening salvo.
> 
> And that it may, with terrifying speed, turn into what the deranged homegrown Isis footsoldiers have as their ultimate goal: the instigation of a full-blown Islamist insurgency in France.
> 
> The embattled, deeply unpopular French President, Francois Hollande, has repeatedly declared that his country is now at war. Only the most optimistic observer would dare to challenge that assessment given the tragic pattern of recent events.
> 
> Still, while the bumbling president is bearing the brunt of the French people's boiling anger, the reality is that he cannot be blamed, simplistically, for the sudden emergence of terrorism on French soil.
> 
> In fact, the unprecedented recent carnage has been decades in the making — and will almost certainly take decades more to resolve, whoever wins the French presidential elections next year.
> 
> Brutal
> 
> For the radicalisation of a small, but significant, Muslim minority intent on joining the jihad is, in part, the consequence of the nation's bloody colonial past and its failure to integrate its vast Muslim population.
> 
> The history of France's brutal response to Algeria's fight against its colonial rule between 1954 and 1962 left a deep and lingering sense of resentment that festers to this day.
> 
> The eight-year war ranks among the bloodiest conflicts of the past century.
> 
> The French set up concentration camps, tortured prisoners and carried out mass executions of civilians suspected of helping the rebels fighting for independence.
> 
> Amid accusations of genocide, the death toll rose to anything between 500,000 and 1 million.
> 
> Even after independence was declared in 1962, there was more atrocity to come.
> 
> Thousands of Muslim Algerian 'Harkis' — pro-French volunteers — who had fought alongside French troops were abandoned to face bloody reprisals in their homeland.
> 
> Estimates are that at least 30,000 — possibly as many as 150,000 — were slaughtered by their fellow countrymen. The wave of immigration of Algerians and north Africans to France following independence led to a vast increase in the number of Muslims.
> 
> Today, between 10 and 15 per cent of France's population of 63 million are Muslim — the highest percentage of any European country.
> 
> However, instead of being integrated into mainstream French society, the first wave of immigrants was concentrated in the impoverished, soulless suburbs of Paris and other major cities, known as banlieues.
> 
> And their offspring mostly remain in them today.
> 
> These banlieues are characterised by high unemployment and poverty. While the average French youth unemployment rate is an admittedly shocking 23.3 per cent, for the millions of first- and second-generation Arab and north African immigrants living in the suburbs of Paris, the youth unemployment is 50 per cent or more.
> 
> Meanwhile, the French authorities turned a blind eye as local mosques were taken over by radical imams preaching hatred of Jews and Christians.
> 
> It is not difficult to understand why the young people in these grim housing estates have proved such fertile ground for Isis recruiters.
> 
> There is, of course, another obvious result of poverty, unemployment and a deep sense of discrimination and hopelessness: high crime rates.
> 
> Depressingly, up to 60 per cent of French prisoners are Muslims and, in turn, prisons have predictably become recruiting grounds for radical Islamist recruiters.
> 
> Indeed, in this regard, a clear pattern is emerging regarding the recent attacks in France. For instance, the Isis recruit who massacred 84 people by driving his lorry through crowds celebrating Bastille Day in Nice was 'known' to police for criminal activity, but not for terror-related issues.
> 
> So it seems highly likely that he — and many others like him — was brainwashed with alarming ease by the Isis criminal underworld and its slick internet recruitment propaganda.
> 
> Following the attacks at the Bataclan theatre and other locations in Paris last November, the French authorities finally seemed to wake up to the nightmare on their doorstep — but their response was hardly what the French people might have hoped for.
> 
> For example, a programme of 're-education' and 'rehabilitation' was introduced inside the prison system.
> 
> However, this softly-softly approach was the equivalent of the UK Government sending in a team of do-gooders to the Maze prison in Belfast at the height of the Troubles, in order to convince the Irish Republican terrorists there that blowing up innocent people really was not a very gentlemanly thing to do.
> 
> After the state of emergency was declared following the Paris attacks, there were 3,549 police raids, 407 people were placed under house arrest, 743 arms caches were seized, and 395 arrests were made — while 344 people were placed in detention and a number of mosques were closed.
> 
> Chilling
> 
> But, again, those statistics, rather than reassuring, perhaps highlight more the terrifying magnitude of the problem. Indeed, they probably represent just the tip of the iceberg that is France's enemy within.
> 
> For even in the midst of the crackdown — and during the state of emergency — terror attacks continued, including the stabbing of a policeman at his home, followed by the murder of his wife in front of their three-year-old son.
> 
> What is truly chilling is that one of the youths who slaughtered the Catholic priest had already been arrested and jailed for terrorist offences after trying to join Isis in Syria — yet he was still free to roam the streets.
> 
> Just as shockingly, the authorities had no inkling of the Nice truck driver's Islamist leanings, even though he was a known criminal.
> 
> Alas, as the German government wakes up to its own terrorist horror, it is making all the same mistakes as the French.
> 
> The one million-plus young Muslim, mostly male, refugees and economic migrants welcomed into the country last year by Angela Merkel are being placed in their own hostels and housing estates — in some ways the equivalent of the French banlieues — rather than being slowly integrated into German society.
> 
> Meanwhile, a much-touted 'five-point plan' for dealing with Islamist prison radicalisation in Germany — similar to the one introduced in France — has been proved to be a useless exercise in wishy-washy liberalism.
> 
> What does all this mean for Britain? Are we any safer than France or Germany?
> 
> Lessons
> 
> The fact that we are outside Europe's border-free Schengen Area, together with our stricter gun laws, makes it harder to possess the sort of assault rifles used in the Paris attacks.
> 
> But it's no safeguard against an Isis-inspired lorry driver or a knife-wielding fanatic.
> 
> A more important factor in Britain's favour is the extraordinary skill of GCHQ and our security services, and the unusual level of co-operation and information-sharing that exists between them and the police.
> 
> This is partly the result of bitter lessons learnt during the Northern Ireland conflict.
> 
> Yet it cannot keep us safe for ever. As the UK intelligence services warn of imminent Isis-inspired attacks in Britain, the lessons from Europe are clear.
> 
> While clearly distinguishing between the overwhelming majority of British Muslims who loathe Islamic State and the minority of radical Islamists who are inspired by the group, our government must adopt a zero-tolerance policy to anyone expressing any kind of support for terrorism.
> 
> But, above all, it must make massive funding to our intelligence services a top priority, so that they can continue to hunt down and incarcerate the many hundreds of Islamists among us who wish to do us harm.
> John R. Bradley's latest book is After The Arab Spring: How Islamists Hijacked The Middle East Revolts.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3711786/Jihadi-France-dark-colonial-past-Ghettoes-threat-Islamic-insurgency.html#ixzz4FhajLvpB
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting bit from an interesting piece ...


> ... Not long after the Charlie Hebdo attack of 2015, Daesh published an essay in its magazine Dabiq titled “The Extinction of the Gray Zone.” The same issue contained graphic photos of the gruesome execution of Jordanian fighter pilot Lt. Muath Al Kasasbeh, a Muslim who recently completed the Hajj before his plane went down in Syria.
> 
> The “Gray Zone” is the group’s name for any place where there is pluralism and multiculturalism. For Daesh’s apocalyptic ideology, a pluralistic and inclusive society is repulsive and must be destroyed. To further that goal, the group seeks to widen the differences which exist, by definition, in a pluralistic community.
> 
> In other words, it’s a wedge strategy. And once the Islamic State can drive enough of a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims, it can more easily radicalize and recruit.
> 
> Daesh is at war with the West, but it’s also at war with other Muslims who reject its theology — which is most of them. This year Dabiq published a “hit list” of prominent western Muslims for its followers to kill. The list included Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison, scholars and several counter-terrorism experts.
> 
> The group continues to kill more Muslims, as a group, than anyone else — and local Muslim fighters on the ground are doing the majority of the fighting against the Daesh’s strongholds. And the group’s attacks on multicultural spaces are not just limited to the West, as evidenced by attacks on Beirut, one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the Middle East.
> 
> But even as the world stands against them, Daesh realizes that the world is still deeply divided. In its essay about the Gray Zone, Dabiq gloats about how the group plans to exploit those divisions and tear us apart.
> 
> “The presence of the [Caliphate] magnifies the political, social, economic, and emotional impact of any operation carried out by the mujāhidīn against the enraged crusaders,” the essay stated.
> 
> “This magnified impact compels the crusaders to actively destroy the grayzone themselves [our italics], the zone in which many of the hypocrites and deviant innovators living in the West are hiding … Muslims in the crusader countries will find themselves driven to abandon their homes … as the crusaders increase persecution against Muslims living in Western lands.”
> 
> Daesh wants us to forget about the contributions of our Muslim friends and neighbors. They want us to hate and fear each other. They’re pushing for knee-jerk backlashes.
> 
> They want us to ignore Zalmay Khalilzad, the Afghan American and lifelong Republican who served as the Bush administration’s ambassador to both Iraq and Afghanistan.
> Grave of Staff Sgt. Ayman Taha, 5th Special Forces Group. Arlington National Cemetery photo
> 
> They want us to forget Staff Sgt. Ayman Taha, the Sudanese-born economist who became a Green Beret and died fighting jihadists in Iraq. They want us to forget Ahmed Merabet, the French Muslim cop gunned down by jihadists as he responded to the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
> 
> And they especially want us to forget that since 9/11, no fewer than 54 jihadist terror suspects or perpetrators came to authorities’ attention as a result of initial tips from America’s 3.3 million Muslim citizens.
> 
> ( ... )
> 
> We need to acknowledge the threat of jihadist radicalism while at the same time not overstating it. Denying it is counter-productive, and does little to help Muslims fighting to counter it in their communities. But overstating it can lead to terrible policies that fail to solve problems, or make them worse ...


----------



## a_majoor

The response needs to be widely distributed and immediate; sheepdog, not sheep:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/07/28/lets-roll-why-standing-up-to-a-terrorist-is-your-best-self-defense/



> COMMENTARY
> *Let’s Roll: Why Standing Up to a Terrorist Is Your Best Self-Defense*
> Glen Butler	/ July 28, 2016 / 8 comments 4.6k
> 
> Glen Butler is a U.S. Marine from Virginia. The opinions expressed here are his personal views.
> 
> After the carnage like we’ve witnessed in American cities such as San Bernardino and Orlando, and more recently in Europe, the national conversation tends to shift temporarily back toward gun control legislation and how to best protect ourselves in the homeland from future terrorist attacks.
> 
> On 9/11, Todd Beamer’s simple “Let’s roll” directive inspired his fellow United Airlines Flight 93 passengers, and now stands as enduring testament to real American grit.
> 
> Sadly, however, what is always absent from these post-tragedy conversations is any mention of one change with enormous potential to save lives—one which would not require controversial legislation, millions of dollars, nor procurement of expensive advanced technologies. This change includes an overdue re-examination of how unarmed civilians should respond during these events, including how federal, state, and local authorities tell the public to respond.
> 
> Most every American has at some point either discussed or practiced an “active shooter response” based on guidance developed by the Department of Homeland Security.
> 
> Originally created, in part, as a buffer against potential lawsuits in the wake of a Nebraska mall shooting in late 2007, the guidance teaches us to run away if possible, hide if you are unable to escape, and fight back only as a last resort.
> 
> Today, “Run, Hide, Fight” is taught to everyone and mandated not only by the DHS, but also by the FBI, law enforcement…and even the military, including for its own members. Fear of lawsuits (by grieving family members of victims who fought back) still drives this and indirectly paralyzes everyone into watching helplessly as the active shooter and terrorist menace rampages.
> 
> Despite this public mandate to run away or cower when under attack, America vigorously celebrates those who violate this edict and confront the threat.
> 
> Three Americans were among those who famously thwarted an attack on a Paris train in August of last year; they’ve enjoyed celebrity status in the months since. Numerous other examples exist of average Americans bucking their government’s guidance, ignoring their survival instincts, and doing the right thing to help save others, and themselves.
> 
> Deciding how to respond in such a scenario is a personal choice, and it would be callous to criticize others who have experienced such trauma, no matter their response.
> 
> But the mere suggestion of confrontation has somehow become controversial. Recall the widespread criticism of former presidential candidate Ben Carson in October when he said “I would not just stand there and let him shoot me … I would ask everybody to attack” in response to a question about the shooting at an Oregon community college. The world was aghast he would say such a thing.
> 
> Nevertheless, consider that in 2012 the Aurora, Colorado, theater gunman who killed 20 people and injured 70 had enough time to leisurely fire 76 shots without confrontation, and was standing casually outside the theater before the arrival of police, who initially mistook him for one of their own.
> 
> More recently, an Orlando survivor told CNN he was hiding in the bathroom stall when the gunman’s gun jammed, and he initially thought someone would then use that pause to rush the attacker. “But no one did,” he said. That’s because they were all simply doing what they’ve been told to do, countless times.
> 
> The mindset that we are helpless without weapons is not only self-defeating, but dangerous, and government policy that reinforces this perception is a flawed one.
> 
> A September 2013 FBI report found that of the 160 active shooter incidents in the U.S. between 2010 and 2013, 21 (13.1 percent) ended after unarmed citizens made the “selfless and deeply personal choices” to confront the active shooters. In each of these cases, the citizens “safely and successfully disrupted the shootings” and “likely saved the lives” of many others present.
> 
> Another compelling reason to consider change is because future attacks are inevitable, and relying on police rescue might actually lower your own chance of survival.
> 
> The 2013 FBI report found that of those 160 active shooter incidents—incidents that generated 1,043 total casualties—60 percent ended before police arrived. These disturbing numbers warrant attention, especially when examined alongside CIA Director John Brennan’s recent remarks: “ISIL has a large cadre of Western fighters who could potentially serve as operatives for attacks in the West … our efforts have not reduced the group’s terrorism capability and global reach … [and] we judge that it will intensify its global terror campaign.”
> 
> Finally, our government-mandated response guidance is based on outdated models.
> 
> Al-Qaeda’s recent Inspire magazine told its U.S. supporters to wage a “knife jihad” and stab civilians like they’re all “Israeli Jews.” A 17-year-old Afghan “refugee” recently attacked passengers in this manner on a German train, and an elderly Catholic priest was similarly butchered during a Mass in France.
> 
> Does it make any sense to hide behind a desk while a jihadi terrorist slowly slices your co-workers, fellow students, or other Americans to death with a knife or machete? Wouldn’t it be more practical, ethical, and effective to rush blade-wielding terrorists as soon as possible?
> 
> Ultimately, this is something Americans should discuss, pundits should debate, and government officials should examine.
> 
> On 9/11, Todd Beamer’s simple “Let’s roll” directive inspired his fellow United Airlines Flight 93 passengers, and now stands as enduring testament to real American grit.
> 
> It’s time we stop training to be lambs for the slaughter and have a national conversation about standing up to terrorists—a conversation that, for once, isn’t linked to either arming everyone with guns or to legislatively taking away those same weapons. It’s time to arm ourselves with knowledge about the benefits of action, and with training for such methods of defense and deterrence.
> 
> After all, you don’t need to be a Navy SEAL or a SWAT team leader to be a hero. You just need to reflect on the current plan’s flaws and be willing to take a better approach, to stand up together against the evil.
> 
> Let’s roll, America!


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Just a side note and a sign of progress that many have been calling for, apparently the muslim council of France has finally drawn a line in the sand and will not perform a muslim burial for the terrorist who executed the priest.

Bravo gentlemen.

Sorry, no link.  If I find one I'll post it.


----------



## mariomike

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Just a side note and a sign of progress that many have been calling for, apparently the muslim council of France has finally drawn a line in the sand and will not perform a muslim burial for the terrorist who executed the priest.
> 
> Bravo gentlemen.
> 
> Sorry, no link.  If I find one I'll post it.



https://www.google.ca/search?q=Adel+Kermiche+burial&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=0x6eV_3FGumM8QeMtpWICQ&gws_rd=ssl#


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Just a side note and a sign of progress that many have been calling for, apparently the muslim council of France has finally drawn a line in the sand and will not perform a muslim burial for the terrorist who executed the priest.
> 
> Bravo gentlemen.
> 
> Sorry, no link.  If I find one I'll post it.



I'm glad to see this, however, I doubt they'll have trouble finding a radical Imam, in the Muslim ghetto, to do the job.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Glass-is-half-full take:  _*"Muslims across France attend Sunday Mass in wake of Normandy church attack"*_
Glass-is-half-empty take:  I doubt every last Muslim in France went to church.


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see this, however, I doubt they'll have trouble finding a radical Imam, in the Muslim ghetto, to do the job.



Easy fix for that.  Make it policy that the remains recovered of any terrorist shall be cremated and the ashes disposed without ceremony of by the State, no exceptions.  By the belief system of this particular individual for example, he would be unable to enter Paradise.  tsk, tsk, tsk.  This way, they'll know up front they're going to face consequences.  The knife can cut both ways.


----------



## cupper

So, here is a thought.

If Trump expands his ban on immigrants to countries and regions where there is sigificant terroist activity, he's looking at pretty large sections of Europe, the Middle East (a given) and Asia.

And seeing how one millenium attack out of Canada was thwarted and we've had two home grown radicals and a couple of disrupted plots, and we are also stigmatized by the myth of 9-11 hijackers entering from Canada, are we going to be on that list of banned countries too?


----------



## Bass ackwards

An incident in Britain last night that seems to be flying under the radar. I'll put it here for now, reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act:

*Armed police fill London streets day after deadly knife attack*
'Mental health remains a substantial focus' of probe, police head says after woman killed, 5 wounded

More police officers are patrolling London streets today after a man stabbed an American woman to death and wounded five people near the British Museum, just days after authorities had warned the public to be vigilant inspired by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria in other parts of Europe.

Police used a stun gun to subdue the 19-year-old man shortly after the attack at around 10:30 p.m. Wednesday in central London's Russell Square. He was arrested on suspicion of murder and is in custody at a London police station.

The attack appears to have been random and a mental health problem could be to blame, according to investigators.

No names have been released.

"Our investigation is moving very quickly and our detectives have been working hard throughout the night," Metropolitan Police Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe said in a statement on Thursday morning.

"Mental health remains a substantial focus for our investigation."

Police said earlier they were looking into terrorism as a possible motive, but by Thursday appeared to be setting those concerns aside. 

"So far we have found no evidence of radicalization that would suggest that the man in our custody is in any way motivated by terrorism," Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley told reporters outside police headquarters in central London.

The suspect is a Norwegian national of Somali descent, according to Scotland Yard. 

The slain woman was an American in her 60s. The wounded are from Australia, the U.S., Israel and the U.K. 

Two people remain in hospital, while others have been discharged. 

Link to full CBC article:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/uk-stabbing-police-1.3706910


----------



## Kat Stevens

I'll buy the mental health thing.  Anyone who believes that their imaginary friend in the sky wants you to kill someone because he likes bacon cheeseburgers has got to be batshit ratfuck crazy.


----------



## Journeyman

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> Armed police fill London streets day after deadly knife attack
> * 'Mental health remains a substantial focus' of probe, *police head says after woman killed, 5 wounded



It's increasingly easy to blame jihadist terror for so many issues, which by the way, they are more than happy to reap the blame / credit.  Of course, our own politicians aren't adverse to using terror incidents for their own purposes either, further skewing potential understanding.

There was an interesting article in the _New York Times_  a couple of weeks ago, "In the Age of ISIS, Who’s a Terrorist, and Who’s Simply Deranged?", which some may find informative.  LINK


----------



## jollyjacktar

And, another one bites the dust.  :nod:

Muslim knifeman shouting 'Allahu Akbar' stabs two Belgian policewomen in street rampage before being shot dead by cops 
-Man wielding machete shouted 'Allahu Akbar' as he attacked officers
-Two Belgian policewomen were injured by the male perpetrator
-A third officer then shot the attacker who later died from his injuries 


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3726916/Two-Belgian-policemen-attacked-machete-wielding-assailant-shouting-Arabic.html#ixzz4GZt1JI9w 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Kirkhill

I reckon his first problem was trying to stab someone with a machete.


----------



## Jarnhamar

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> -Man wielding machete shouted 'Allahu Akbar' as he attacked officers



I think it's less of a "terrorisim" issue and more or an Religion/Islam issue TBH.


----------



## George Wallace

"A Canadian is a Canadian, is a Canadian."  How far should that actually go?

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)



> *Man accused of terrorist activities lives just outside GTA as Canadian citizen*
> 
> Tamara Cherry, CTV Toronto
> Published Thursday, August 18, 2016 6:32PM EDT
> Last Updated Thursday, August 18, 2016 6:45PM EDT
> 
> An internationally wanted man accused of terrorist activities is living just outside the Greater Toronto Area as a Canadian citizen, CTV Toronto has learned.
> 
> The case raises questions about the weight of Interpol notices as well as how the Canadian government deals with people they believe belong to terror groups.
> 
> The story began to unravel when CTV Toronto received a tip that a man named in an Interpol red notice -- a notice that is issued in an effort to find, arrest and extradite a wanted person believed to be living abroad -- may be living in the Greater Toronto Area.
> 
> The red notice in question was issued in 2010 for a then-43-year-old man named Ravishankar Kanagarajah. The notice currently on Interpol's website lists the wanted party as Kanagaraja Ravishankar. His charges are listed as "Terrorism" and he is wanted by authorities in Sri Lanka.
> 
> According to Sri Lankan media, in 2014, Ravishankar was convicted and sentenced in absentia to 30 years imprisonment for transporting guns and explosives from North Korea to Sri Lanka for the LTTE, or Tamil Tigers. The group has been considered a terrorist entity by the Canadian government since 2006. According to Sri Lankan media, Ravishankar is considered a leader of the group.
> 
> A man living under the slightly different name of Ravisangar Kanagarajah is listed as the director of Siya Shipping Company Ltd.
> 
> According to several people found at the Brampton address listed for the company, Kanagarajah used to live at there, but recently moved to the Cambridge area.
> 
> A woman who identified herself as Kanagarajah's sister-in-law confirmed Monday Kanagarajah currently lives in her Kitchener home, along with his brother-in-law, having recently separated from his wife in Brampton. Several attempts to reach Kanagarajah, however, were unsuccessful. According to his brother-in-law and sister-in-law, he was driving a transport truck and unreachable when CTV Toronto showed up at his Kitchener home twice this week.
> 
> CTV Toronto was ultimately put in touch with his attorney, human rights lawyer Paul Copeland.
> 
> Copeland, as well as family members, confirmed Kanagarajah is the man listed in the Interpol red notice and is currently a Canadian citizen. It is unknown under what circumstances Kanagarajah was granted citizenship.
> "He's a Canadian citizen, he's here lawfully, I've never heard an allegation that he used a different name," Copeland said.
> 
> According to Copeland, the Canadian government attempted to revoke Kanagarajah's passport in recent years, in part due to the Interpol red notice, but ultimately halted the process because Kanagarajah's passport had expired.
> Citing "privacy laws," Citizenship and Immigration Canada refused to comment on any aspect of Kanagarajah's case, including whether the federal government attempted to revoke Kanagarajah's citizenship upon learning of the Interpol red notice and ultimate terror-related conviction. Terrorism-related convictions are grounds for citizenship revocation in Canada.
> 
> "There's never been a suggestion by Canadian authorities to me that they've any intention of making any attempts to do that," Copeland said.
> 
> Pointing to the historical oppression of the Tamil population in Sri Lanka, Copeland argued that Kanagarajah does not amount to a terrorist, nor should he be considered a threat to the Canadian public.
> 
> "I think the civil war in Sri Lanka did not fit within the definition of terrorism, generally speaking," Copeland said. "I would not regard him (Kanagarajah) as a terrorist."
> 
> Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale refused to be interviewed for this story.



Video, photos and more on LINK.


----------



## George Wallace

A very good article from the Mackenzie Institute with various links to their research and sources:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)

Part 1



> The Muslim Brotherhood in Canada: Civilization Jihad
> TOM QUIGGIN
> 11/30/2015, 4:12 pm
> 
> Canada has produced a series of individuals who have become suicide bombers, ISIS propagandists and jihadist fighters in a variety of conflict zones. How this radicalization is occurring is unclear to many observers.  It is worth noting, however, that Canada has a series of deep networks which have the ideology, money and infrastructure to support their objectives of developing extremism. They have the ability to create the political, social and cultural spaces for extremism to flourish. Radicalization and political violence (terrorism) are the two most visible offshoots of this overall process.1
> 
> The most advanced networks in Canada are operated by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian sponsored Khomeneists, Hizb ut-Tahrir and the organizational structures bought through Wahhabist money. Of these, the most systemic threat to Canada may come from the Muslim Brotherhood.  Intelligence and law enforcement agencies appear to have become focused on catching ‘terrorists’ but have not disrupted the networks producing them.
> 
> The Muslim Brotherhood
> 
> The Muslim Brotherhood, a Sunni aligned extremist organization, may be the largest and most effective of these groups in Canada.  With some 700 oath of allegiance or bay’at2 swearing members3 and thousands more followers in Canada, the front organizations of the Muslim Brotherhood operate a series of mosques[4], prayer rooms, schools5, cultural centres and federally registered charities.6  Members of the Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwān al-Muslimūn) are often referred to as Ikhwani and the group as “The Ikhwan.”
> 
> The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in Egypt in 1928 during the fall out of World War One, the redrawing of Middle East borders and the final collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate in 1924.7 The founder, Hassan al-Banna, is one of the most quoted and revered figures in the world of extremist, politicized Islam.  The Muslim Brotherhood’s ideological sister organization, Jamaat- e-Islami, was founded by Abul A’la Maududi in 1941.8 The Muslim Brotherhood currently has a structured presence in some 70+ countries.9
> 
> It is critical to understand the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-e-Islami as they are the well spring of ideology for almost all other major Islamacist supremacist organizations,10 including ISIS.11  Abū Bakr al-Baghdādi 12 is the first Caliph of the ISIS Caliphate. He quotes ideas and beliefs from al-Maududi and from the Brotherhood’s Sayyid Qutb (and others)13during his only public sermon in Mosul in July of 2014. This was immediately following the ISIS victories in Syria and Iraq in June of 2014.14 Of note, al-Maududi himself is a former Muslim Brotherhood member15, along with other key extremist figures such as al Qaeda’s Ayman Zawahiri16 and al Qaeda co-founder Abdullah Azzam.17
> 
> The ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood is Islamacist and political, that is to say that its objective is to impose its interpretation of Islam over all of society18, to the exclusion of all other religions, political systems, economic methods and social structures.  Hassan al-Banna’s well-known edict on this world view was reduced to the simple motto “Islam is the solution.”
> 
> Secrecy and Violence
> 
> Almost since its founding, the Muslim Brotherhood has struggled with the issues of secrecy and violence.  The organization has frequently maintained a set of secret sub-groups, most of them related to violent activities.  The founder, Hassan al-Banna, struggled with the concept of whether the organization should employ a ‘ground up’ approach, growing itself through social works in the community or by using force and taking over from the ‘top down’.  But even by the 1930s, the Muslim Brotherhood had a ‘secret apparatus’19 and was sending armed groups to fight in the Palestinian Governate.  This issue would later emerge and cause huge upsets when another Muslim Brotherhood theorist, Sayyed Qutb (1906-1966), advocated openly for the larger use of violence.
> 
> In one notable event in the early 1970s, the Muslim Brotherhood publicly stated that it renounced violence.20 However, this view was officially reversed following a policy review after the Muslim Brotherhood government of Egypt was ejected in 2013.  On 28 January 2015, the Muslim Brotherhood stated it would return to violence with the following statement:
> 
> “It is in incumbent upon everyone to be aware that we are the process of a new phase, where we summon what is latent in our strength, where we recall the meanings of jihad and prepare ourselves, our wives, our sons, our daughters, and whoever marched on our path to a long, uncompromising jihad, and during this stage we ask for martyrdom.”21
> 
> Civilization Jihad: The Muslim Brotherhood in Canada and the United States
> 
> In 1991, following a controversial year-long internal policy review, the Muslim Brotherhood in North America announced its “Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal for the Brotherhood in North America.” The detailed plan, signed by Dr. Mohamed Akram, described their objectives, strategies and what was expected of its members and front groups.  Key among those statements was: “The process of settlement is a “Civilization-Jihadist Process” with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.”22
> 
> A number of Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers have attempted to downplay the significance of this document, claiming that it represents the view of one individual at a point in time.23  The reality, however, is that the document was released by the Shura Council (governing body) of the Muslim Brotherhood in North America. During the Holy Land Relief terrorism funding trials in the USA, the document itself was entered as evidence.24  In the following years, Dr. Mohammed Akram, its signatory, was promoted to be head of the Al Quds International Foundation, which itself is a specially designated terrorist organization. Al Quds has been identified as being “controlled by and acting for or on behalf of Hamas” according to US Presidential Executive Order 13224.25The foundation is run by Yusef Qaradawi, who has been identified as the “most important leader of the Global Muslim Brotherhood and is the de facto spiritual leader of the movement.” He is also considered to be the ‘spiritual guide’ for HAMAS and his fatwas support suicide bombings.”26
> 
> We Will Conquer America
> 
> As noted, Yusef Qaradawi is the leading cleric and inspirational leader for the Muslim Brotherhood and he is also the subject of an Interpol Red Notice.27 Initially in 199528 and again in 200729, he stated that the Muslim Brotherhood will gradually takeover both North America and Europe.
> 
> “This means that Islam will come back to Europe for the third time, after it was expelled from it twice… Conquest through Da’wa that is what we hope for. We will conquer Europe, we will conquer America! Not through sword but through Da’wa.“30
> 
> Canadian Front Groups
> 
> The 1991 Explanatory Memorandum also directed that the Muslim Brotherhood would operate through a series of front groups and sympathetic organizations.  Zeid al-Noman, a Masul of the Executive Committee31of the Muslim Brotherhood of North America made the following observations on the issue of front groups in the overall plan:
> 
> By God, fronts are one method …., one method for grouping and are one method to communicate the Ikhwan‘s thought. They are one method to communicate the Ikhwan’s point of view. A front is not formed until after a study and after an exhaustive study. I mean, the last front formed by the Group is the Islamic Association for Palestine.
> 
> For instance, the brothers in Egypt don’t have fronts in the same broad way we have in America and the fronts are one of the means and so on. Then, Ikhwans, our means are really different. They might carry the same name but the content is different.32
> 
> In Canada, the highest profile of these organizations are the Muslim Association of Canada, the National Council of Canadian Muslims, (formerly CAIR CAN), IRFAN and Islamic Relief Canada.33 IRFAN (International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy) is now defunct, having lost its charitable status in 2011 for funding terrorism and having been listed as a terrorism entity in 2014.34
> 
> Another Muslim Brotherhood front group, formed in the USA but now active in Canada as well, is the Muslim Student Association (MSA).  This student group was formed as an educational and recruiting program for the Muslim Brotherhood.  In Canada, some of its better known alumni are al Qaeda financer Ahmed Sayed Khadr (University of Ottawa MSA), suicide bomber Salman Asrafi (University of Lethbridge MSA), and ISIS propagandist John Maguire (University of Ottawa MSA). Other from the MSA have also gone on to take significant leadership roles in Muslim Brotherhood front groups as well as Ikhwani positions overseas. 35
> 
> Beating Women is a Sign of Love and Concern
> 
> The Muslim Student Association of York University handed out free books for its annual Islam Awareness Week in February 2015. One of the books, Women in Islam, has a chapter on ‘Wife Disciplining’ and advises that wives should only be beaten as part of a three stage correctional process.  It also notes that there are different kinds of women, including the view that: “Submissive or subdued women. These women may even enjoy being beaten at times as a sign of love and concern.”36
> 
> This book, and other similar statements, are an indication of just how misogynistic extremist Islamacists can be, even in public. Other recent examples by extremist Imams in Canada include the view that “beating women is a form of education in Islam.”37
> 
> The Muslim Association of Canada
> 
> Of note, the Muslim Association of Canada openly states its support for the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna, on their webpage. “In the Arab world, this revival culminated in the writings of the late Imam Hassan al-Banna and the movement of the Society of Muslim Brothers (commonly known as the Muslim Brotherhood). Al-Banna’s core messages of constructive engagement in society, focus on personal and communal empowerment, and organizational development had a deep impact on much of the Muslim world.”38
> 
> The Muslim Association of Canada operates a series of schools and mosques across Canada.  They can be seen in this chart:39
> 
> Outlook
> 
> Intelligence and law enforcement agencies have often been focused on ‘terrorists’ and ‘terrorism’ which are but two manifestations of extremism.  Here in Canada (and in the USA) the over focus on terrorism has come at the expense of not examining the extremist networks that feed the radicalization.  The Muslim Brotherhood, with its variety of front groups, is well positioned to continue its activities in support of its primary objective of using ‘civilization jihad’ to increasingly impose its Islamacist beliefs and influence on Canada.
> 
> The Government of the United Kingdom has struggled for years with its program to “Prevent Violent Extremism” which has had mixed to weak results and is now changing strategies and working towards its “Confronting Violent Extremism” program, with greater hopes for success. Other governments in Europe are also struggling with NO GO zones and isolated communities due to the success of extremist networks there.  Denmark, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany are examples
> 
> What is not clear is whether the Government of Canada is prepared to produce a sufficient response to both terrorism and the networks behind the growth in extremism.  At this time, it appears that another intelligence and policy failure is in the making.



More on LINK.

...../Part 2


----------



## George Wallace

Part 2


> _____________________________
> 
> References
> 
> 1.  See the article Who Runs Canada’s Extremist Networks? which is available online at: http://tsecnetwork.ca/2015/09/24/who-runs-canadas-extremist-recruiting-networks/
> 2.  A bay’at is an oath of allegiance to an emir or leader.  In the case of the Muslim Brotherhood, the oath is sworn to the organization and to its Supreme Guide. For a general definition, see http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bayat. For more on the oath of allegiance to the Muslim Brotherhood see the recent article of January 7, 2015 by Hamad Al-Majid which can be seen online at: http://english.aawsat.com/2015/01/article55340148.
> 3.  The number of 700 members in Canada comes from Tharwat Kherbawi, a former leadership figure of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. In 2015, he estimated the number of Ikhwani members in Canada in the early 2000s at 700, based on his earlier financing and travel arrangement work for the Muslim Brotherhood.  However, he also believes that the number could be greater now, given the outflow of Muslim Brotherhood members since the collapse of their government in Egypt in 2013.  For more on Kherbawi and his profile, see Inside the Ikhwan, Interview with Tharwat El-Kherbawy; an insider’s look at the Muslim Brotherhood first posted on November 20, 2012.  http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2012/11/20/inside-the-ikhwan/.
> 4.  For instance, Dr. El-Tantawy Attia of the Masjid Toronto (Dundas Street) and the Muslim Association of Canada made it clear when he emphatically told the press “Here, we follow the teachings of the Muslim Brotherhood.”  For more on this see the National Post Story Cancelled debate highlights tension among Canadian Muslims which is available online at: http://news.nationalpost.com/holy-post/cancelled-debate-highlights-tension-among-canadian-muslims
> 5.  For a partial listing of properties and schools see both the list provided and the chart at: http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2015/01/29/muslim-group-linked-to-terror-organization-buying-buildings-across-canada  See also the charts on properties and schools at:  http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/01/29/canadian-muslim-group-linked-to-terror-financing-denies-wrongdoing
> 6.  Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa Citizen, Beware of the Muslim Brotherhood, expert warns. Published on May 16, 2015.  The article is available online at: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/beware-of-the-muslim-brotherhood-expert-warns.  The article was based on the Senate of Canada testimony by Dr. Lorenzo Vidino.  For a full transcript of Dr. Vidino’s testimony on the Muslim Brotherhood in Canada see: http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/412/SECD/52124-E.HTM
> 7.  For a short overview of the founding of the Muslim Brotherhood, see the Federation of American Scientists article at: http://fas.org/irp/world/para/mb.htm.  See also the BBC Profile of the Muslim Brotherhood at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-12313405   See also see the Council on Foreign Relations report at: http://www.cfr.org/egypt/egypts-muslim-brotherhood/p23991
> 8.  Martín, Richard C. (2004). Encyclopedia of Islam & the Muslim World. Granite Hill. p. 371.  See also Choueiri, Youssef M. (2010). Islamic Fundamentalism 3rd Edition: The Story of Islamist Movements (3rd ed.), Bloomsbury. p. 100. In this book the author states  "... all the major contemporary radicalist movements, particularly the Tunisian Islamic Tendency, led by Rashid Ghannushi, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad organization and the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, derive their ideological and political programmes from the writings of al Mawdudi and Sayyid Qutb."  See also The New Republic "The roots of jihad in India" by Philip Jenkins, December 24, 2008.
> 9.  See, among many others, Raymond Ibrahim, The Muslim Brotherhood: Origins, Efficacy, and Reach.  The article is available online at:  https://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/research/2594227
> 10.  For more on how vanguard ideology is based around the Muslim Brotherhood, see Fuller, The Future of Political Islam, (2003), p.194-5.
> 11.  For more on the ideological links between ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood, see the Ryan Mauro article of October 19, 2014: Egyptian Gov't Says ISIS Came from Muslim Brotherhood. The article is available online at: http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/egyptian-govt-says-isis-came-muslim-brotherhood
> 12.  For more on al-Baghdadi, see the BBC profile at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27801676.  See also the Brookings Institute research essay of him at: http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2015/thebeliever
> 13.  Farhang Jahanpour Al-Baghdadi, Self-Proclaimed Caliph of the Islamic State - Part 2, 10/27/14. http://www.payvand.com/news/14/oct/1154.html  The author notes:  His sermon touched on some of the key militant Sunni doctrines, going back to the strict Salafi Hanbali doctrines, the writings of Ibn Taymiyyah who lived at the time of the Mongol invasion of Iraq, to the views of the militant Egyptian ideologue Sayyid Qutb, the Lebanese-Egyptian Salafi preacher Rashid Rida, and Pakistani militant theologian and political activist Abul Ala Maududi.
> 14.  Kevin MacDonald, The Guardian, Tuesday September 9, 2014 12.59 BST:   Isis jihadis aren’t medieval – they are shaped by modern western philosophy. The article can be seen online at: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/isis-jihadi-shaped-by-modern-western-philosophy
> 15.  William McCants, Brookings Institute research essay, The Believer, September 01, 2015.   See this article online at: http://www.brookings.edu/research/essays/2015/thebeliever
> 16.  Among many other sources, see the BBC Profile of Ayman al-Zawahiri at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13789286
> 17.  Thomas Hegghammer, “Introduction: Abdallah Azzam, Imam of Jihad,” in Al Qaeda in Its Own Words, Gilles Kepel and Jean-Pierre Milelli (Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2008), 81–101.
> 18.  For a larger discussion and definition of Islamicism, see the article by Maajid Nawaz of the Quilliam Foundation.  It is available online at:  http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press/maajid-nawaz-speaks-about-journey-from-extremism-to-democratic-awakening/
> 19.  On 28 January 2015, the Muslim Brotherhood referred to its founder Hassan al-Banna and its earlier years when it stated it would return to violence with the statement:  “Imam al-Banna prepared the jihad brigades that he sent to Palestine to kill the Zionist usurpers and the second [Supreme] Guide Hassan al-Hudaybi reconstructed the ‘secret apparatus’ to bleed the British occupiers.” The statement can been seen at the Muslim Brotherhood’s own website or an English language version can be seen at: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8446.htm
> 20.  Zachary Laub, Online Writer/Editor, Council on Foreign Relations,  Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, Updated: January 15, 2014   http://www.cfr.org/egypt/egypts-muslim-brotherhood/p23991
> 21.  http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8446.htm
> 22.  http://www.investigativeproject.org/document/id/20
> 23.  Mohammad Akram and Explanatory Memo Still Matter, Center for Security Policy, 18 May 2015.  The article is available online at:  https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2015/05/18/mohammad-akram-and-explanatory-memo-still-matter/ .
> 24.  See documents from the Holy Land Relief Trial, in particular the 2009 order on Holy Land Foundation unindicted coconspirator list.  In this ruling, the court stated:  Government Exhibit. 3-85 (1991 memorandum authored by U.S.-Muslim Brotherhood Shura Council member Mohamed Akram Adlouni, recognizing ISNA and NAIT as Muslim Brotherhood organizations.) Government’s Exhibit 3-85, entitled An Explanatory Memorandum on the General Strategic Goal of the Group, described the Brotherhood’s strategic goal as a kind of “grand Jihad.”  See the ruling at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/43380629/2009-order-on-Holy-Land-Foundation-unindicted-coconspirator-list
> 25.  US Department of the Treasury, Treasury Sanctions Two Hamas-Controlled Charities, 10/4/2012 http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/tg1725.aspx
> 26.  Youssef Qaradawi, The Global Muslim Brotherhood Daily Watch, http://www.globalmbwatch.com/youssef-qaradawi/.  For more on Qaradawi, see http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/A-portrait-of-Muslim-Brotherhoods-supreme-authority
> 27.  http://www.interpol.int/notice/search/wanted/2014-58772
> 28.  John Mintz and Douglas Farah, Washington Post, Saturday, September 11, 2004: In Search Of Friends Among The Foes. The article can be seen online at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12823-2004Sep10.html
> 29.  Sheik Yusuf Al-Qaradhawi: Islam's "Conquest of Rome" Will Save Europe from Its Subjugation to Materialism and Promiscuity, Qatar TV - July 28, 2007 - 02:44.  The clip can be seen at:   http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1592.htm .
> 30.  http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yusuf_Qaradawi
> 31.  For a transcript of the speech and for his identification as a Masul, see the Holy Land Relief Foundation terror funding trial document at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/redirect/Ikhwan_in_American-Zeid_Al-Nomann.pdf
> 32.  The Ikhwan in America, Zeid al-Noman. For an explanation of al-Noman’s speech in this issue, see, among others: http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/26.pdf
> 33.  Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa Citizen, Beware of the Muslim Brotherhood, expert warns. Published on: May 16, 2015.  The article is available online at: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/beware-of-the-muslim-brotherhood-expert-warns .  The article was based on the Senate of Canada testimony by Lorenzo Vidino.  For a full transcript of his testimony on the Muslim Brotherhood in Canada see: http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/412/SECD/52124-E.HTM
> 34.  http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/chrts-gvng/chrts/whtsnw/trrrst-ntty-eng.html
> 35.  See the TSEC Network article on the MSA:  Is the Muslim Student Association of Canada/USA a Recruiting Point for Extremism?  http://tsecnetwork.ca/2015/09/25/is-the-muslim-student-association-of-canadausa-a-recruiting-point-for-extremism/
> 36.  The title of the book was Women in Islam & Refutation of some Common Misconceptions. To see pictures and an explanation of the event see: http://jonathanhalevi.blogspot.ca/2015/03/book-legalizing-wife-beating-is-being.html and http://www.blogwrath.com/canada-islam/muslim-week-at-york-university-with-wife-beating-tips/6971/
> 37.  For more examples of advocating violence against women in Canada, see the article A Tale of the Handmaidens – Violence against Women in Canada. The article is available online at: http://tsecnetwork.ca/2015/10/04/a-tale-of-the-handmaidens-violence-against-women-in-canada/
> 38.  http://www.macnet.ca/English/Pages/About%20MAC.aspx
> 39.  The chart was originally a part of a Sun Media article which can be seen at: http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/01/29/canadian-muslim-group-linked-to-terror-financing-denies-wrongdoing



More on LINK.


----------



## mariomike

George Carlin: The Islamic Extremists Will Win 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2HV_2A7x2M



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Didn't hear much about the plane crash in Peterborough in the news, I remember thinking it's weird they never mentioned a name.



See also,

RCMP treated Peterborough, Ont., plane crash as "nat'l security" case  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/123877/post-1450608/topicseen.html#new



			
				S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Schizophrenia? Or something else?





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Gotta wonder why the RCMP was treating it as a national security issue though.



For any Family Guy fans,


----------



## Jarnhamar

Missed that, thanks!


----------



## a_majoor

The German government finally steps off the X. Asking people to stockpile food and water is telling them to become more aware and self reliant. Making a society more robust is a good way to both mitigate the effects of attacks, and also start getting more people able to spot warning signs and respond to attacks, shutting them down early:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-tell-people-stockpile-food-water-case-attacks-154318206--sector.html



> *Germany to tell people to stockpile food and water in case of attacks: FAS*
> Reuters	August 21, 2016
> 
> BERLIN (Reuters) - For the first time since the end of the Cold War, the German government plans to tell citizens to stockpile food and water in case of an attack or catastrophe, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper reported on Sunday.
> 
> Germany is currently on high alert after two Islamist attacks and a shooting rampage by a mentally unstable teenager last month. Berlin announced measures earlier this month to spend considerably more on its police and security forces and to create a special unit to counter cyber crime and terrorism.
> 
> "The population will be obliged to hold an individual supply of food for ten days," the newspaper quoted the government's "Concept for Civil Defence" - which has been prepared by the Interior Ministry - as saying.
> 
> The paper said a parliamentary committee had originally commissioned the civil defense strategy in 2012.
> 
> A spokesman for the Interior Ministry said the plan would be discussed by the cabinet on Wednesday and presented by the minister that afternoon. He declined to give any details on the content.
> 
> People will be required to stockpile enough drinking water to last for five days, according to the plan, the paper said.
> 
> The 69-page report does not see an attack on Germany's territory, which would require a conventional style of national defense, as likely.
> 
> However, the precautionary measures demand that people "prepare appropriately for a development that could threaten our existence and cannot be categorically ruled out in the future," the paper cited the report as saying.
> 
> It also mentions the necessity of a reliable alarm system, better structural protection of buildings and more capacity in the health system, the paper said.
> 
> A further priority should be more support of the armed forces by civilians, it added.
> 
> Germany's Defence Minister said earlier this month the country lay in the "crosshairs of terrorism" and pressed for plans for the military to train more closely with police in preparing for potential large-scale militant attacks.
> 
> (Writing by Caroline Copley; Editing by Andrew Bolton)


----------



## mariomike

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The German government finally steps off the X. Asking people to stockpile food and water is telling them to become more aware and self reliant.



Some of the more self reliant types may also stockpile cash for the Black Market.


----------



## a_majoor

I would appreciate feedback from AbdullahD so we can understand the context of these Hadiths and Koranic quotes. I'm not sure the solution as described is plausible, but there certainly needs to be a very active and strong counter messaging campaign to neutralize the Jihadis and eliminate their appeal to people:

https://pjmedia.com/blog/islamic-jihads-most-effective-weapons/?singlepage=true



> *Islamic Jihad’s Most Effective Weapons*
> BY DAVID SOLWAY AUGUST 24, 2016 CHAT 44 COMMENTS
> 
> Recently I published a pair of articles proposing in the first a series of severe legislative measures to curtail, if not eliminate, the carnage of jihad inflicted upon innocent people in all walks of life, and suggesting in the second that Islam, unlike Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths, should not be entitled to the protection of the First Amendment. In the sequel, I received a couple of messages accusing me of promoting a “final solution.” One from a former colleague read: Bravo. Your final solution is so simple and elegant. Another from a friend read, in part: Implicit in all your articles is that Islam…should or be made to disappear. The case against Islam taken to its extreme begins to sound very close to a "final solution." Do we want or should we want to go there?
> 
> My former colleague appears never to have read the Islamic scriptures and ancillary texts and obviously has little knowledge of Islamic history. My friend is considerably more erudite but seems, nonetheless, to believe that direct and aggressive confrontation is not the proper route to take. To imply that I, a Jew, am advocating a “final solution,” an Endlösung, is at the very least rather tactless. It is also, as I hope to show, the height of folly. What I said in my articles is that the terror apparatus needs to be dismantled without delay or equivocation, and that we have to go to the source of the violence, Islam itself. I was not advocating killing anyone, or rounding Muslims up in cattle cars and shipping them off to concentration camps, or burning  ghettoes and no-go zones to the ground.
> 
> I said in particular that terror mosques have to be investigated and if necessary shut down (military-grade weapons have been found in a German mosque, but jihadist-inspired sermons are also heavy weapons), that no-go zones have to be disarmed and opened to safe public dwelling, that Sharia, a draconian atavism incompatible with our constitutions, should be outlawed, that unscreened immigration simply has to stop, and that the status of Islam as a “religion” entitled to the shelter of the First Amendment is a legitimate issue to be debated—at least until the Koran, Hadith, Sira, schools of jurisprudence, etc. are sanitized, if ever.
> 
> My friend replied to a stern rebuke in partial walkback fashion. Of course, I’m not suggesting that you’re advocating an actual “final solution,” that’s absurd…Explicit in your many articles is that any decent, self-respecting, tolerant Muslim should…defect from Islam (reject the Koran, for all the reasons you have been laying out for years). Their example, taken to the extreme, would have Islam disappear gently into the night, which would be like a “final solution.” That’s all I’m saying. He continued: What your latest article doesn’t allow re. religious protection is a reformation within Islam, which I believe has already begun.
> 
> The question is: how long are we willing to wait for this putative reformation to bear fruit? I see a few "moderates" here and there trying to effect change, but they are having little appreciable impact, and most still adhere to the adulation of Mohammed, turn a blind eye to the dictates of their faith, or pretend the offending passages, with which the scriptures and commentaries are replete, mean something other than what they explicitly say.
> 
> A substantial and rooted reformation of Islam is the pipe dream of the cowed and complaisant who cannot face the indigestible fact that Islam is at war with us, has been at war with the Judeo-Christian West (and other civilizations) for fourteen hundred years, and shows no sign of relenting. I’d also suggest—assuming reform were conceivable—that my proposals, if taken seriously, might accelerate the reform my correspondent is piously wishing for. With terror mosques closed and fundamentalist Islam in official disgrace, true reformers might gather momentum. But this is only a thought-experiment.
> 
> The exception to the rule of Islamic hegemony, according to Supra Zaida Peery, executive director of Muslim World Today, appears to be Azerbaijan, with its history, at least since independence from the Soviet bloc in 1991, of “egalitarianism, democracy, and rule of law.” Such advancements are possible only where the Islamic scriptures are studiously disregarded, which reinforces the argument that canonical Islam is anti-freedom and an ever-present danger.
> 
> Ms. Peery admits that traditional Islam, honor codes and all, is making a comeback. Azerbaijan also enjoys strong relations with Erdogan’s Turkey, a political alliance that provokes a degree of skepticism respecting Ms. Peery’s claims. Everything considered, I would agree with Danusha Goska’s critical review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now—a book which claims that Islam is susceptible, however tardily, to modernization. Goska writes: “We must confront jihad for what it is: a timeless and universal threat that requires an equally timeless and universal response.”
> 
> I have nothing against Muslims practicing their faith in their homes, as long as they don't take its injunctions to rape, enslave, subjugate and murder in the name of Allah literally, and I have nothing against imams sermonizing from an extensively expurgated Koran—though their temples should have no greater legal status than, say, a Masonic clubhouse.
> 
> Meanwhile we line up at airports, remove our shoes, wait interminably to be processed, and expect to be groped—followed by the apprehension, shared by many, that the flight we have boarded may disappear off the radar. Meanwhile the French police are patrolling the beaches lest some "scantily clad" woman or child is knifed by some offended Muslim, as happened not long ago, a Jewish man in Strasbourg is stabbed by an Allahu Akbarist, seven people including a six-year-old child are injured in a “fire and knife” attack on a Swiss train, and an American tourist is stabbed to death in London’s busy Russell Square by a Somalian. “He’s still here, he’s still here,” were the dying woman’s last words, and indeed he is.
> 
> Meanwhile entire cities go into lockdown and people are warned to stay indoors after another jihadist onslaught. Meanwhile Pew polls report that young, second-generation Muslims—those we thought were Westernized “moderates”—increasingly favor death for apostates and gays and harsh punishment for criticism of Islam. Meanwhile countries are being swarmed with military-age “refugees,” a troubling number of whom are estimated to be ISIS plants or sympathizers; German intelligence official Manfred Hauser warns that ISIS has infiltrated the migrant hordes and set up a command structure in the country. Patrick Poole reports that the first two weeks of August 2016 have seen five dozen incidents of Muslim-related domestic insurgency in Europe. (As I write, a Muslim convert armed with detonation devices has just been shot by the RCMP in an Ontario community.)
> 
> The very conduct of our lives has changed—it’s called the “new normal.” We now hear from the lips of French Prime Minister Manuel Valls that we will have to “learn to live with terrorism.” Is this OK? Are we prepared to accept the limitations upon our traditional freedoms and the ever-present threat of violence upon our persons as a customary aspect of daily life in the hope that one day in the indefinite future the “religion of peace” will become a religion of peace? As things stand, our enemies are laughing all the way to the future.
> 
> More to the point, the irony very few observers wish to acknowledge—and certainly not my interlocutors—is that it is no one and nothing but Islam that is pursuing a "final solution "—and not only for Jews. Read the Koran and the Hadith. Consider, among many other passages and commands:
> 
> Koran 2:191-193 (And kill them wherever you find them…)
> 
> Koran 2:216 (Fighting is prescribed for you…)
> 
> Koran 3:151 (Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers…)
> 
> Koran 4:74 (Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other...be he slain or victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward)
> 
> Koran 8:39 (And fight with them until there is no more unbelief and religion is all for Allah)
> 
> Koran 9:5: (When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them…—though jihadists today do not wait for the sacred months to pass)
> 
> Koran 9:21 (Fight those who believe not in Allah…even if they are People of the Book—i.e., Jews and Christians)
> 
> Koran 9:41 (Go forth, light armed and heavy armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah)
> 
> Koran 9:73 (O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them…)
> 
> Hadith, Sahih Muslim 041,6985: (Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger [may peace be upon him] as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him…)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Muslim 020,4712: (You shall conquer many lands and Allah will grant you victories over your enemies in battle, but none of you should stop practicing for war.)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4,52,196: (I have been directed to fight the Kafir until everyone admits “There is only one god and that is Allah.”)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Muslim 020,4681: (Certainly the gates of Paradise lie in the shade of swords), and 020,4696: (The man who dies without participating in jihad, who never desired to wage war, dies the death of a hypocrite.).
> 
> This is a radically abbreviated gazette; the litany does not stop there. And one must remember that these are the words of the Prophet and his God; as such they are incumbent upon every believing Muslim, and form the basis for the war of civilizations that began in the early 7th century and has not abated since. If we insist that this does not constitute a “final solution,” then we are quite simply lying to ourselves and deserve the fate that will befall us. To adapt the Islamic terminology, we are “unbelievers” in the sense that we refuse to believe our eyes and we are “hypocrites” in that we condemn others both for our cowardice and for the very crimes of Islam.
> 
> Serge Trifkovic, foreign affairs editor of the political magazine Chronicles, author of The Sword of the Prophet, and professor of international relations at the University of Banja Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina, foresees the Islamic conquista of a “soft, genderless” Europe, expedited by “an implacably suicidal ruling class.” Trifkovic is worth attending to. The last paragraph of his chilling and premonitory article, “Europe’s Dark Hour,” reads in part: “The lesson of Europe for America is clear: The emergence of an autonomous and politically untouchable Muslim diaspora must be prevented. It is in the American interest for the U.S. government to introduce an open-ended moratorium on Muslim immigration now, while those who are present still lack the numbers and infrastructure to wreak havoc. In addition, Islamic activism should be treated as grounds for the exclusion or deportation of any alien…The alternative is the predictable pattern of terrorist violence, social corrosion, and cultural decline that we are witnessing in today’s Europe.”
> 
> Meanwhile the killings and atrocities will continue, increasing in frequency and scale. At the same time Islam is embedding itself in our governments and social institutions. So how long are we willing to wait? I suspect that if we ourselves are harmed, if the people we love are maimed or murdered, our patience might run out. I suspect that if we are hauled into court by some Muslim organization (I speak from experience) for exercising our free-speech rights and speaking truth backed by evidence, and emerge beaten, humiliated or nearly bankrupt—because the plaintiff is flush with Qatari cash and we have only a salary and a suborned judiciary--we might find ourselves short of tolerant forbearance. I suspect that if we are on the receiving end, not of counter arguments but of death threats and salvos of unspeakable vulgarity (I speak from experience), we might think this has gone on long enough. I suspect that if we find ourselves fired from our jobs or fined large sums of money because of a Facebook post deemed offensive by our Islamophilic authorities, we might find ourselves less forgiving.
> 
> But those who have so far managed to keep a safe distance from the looming storm cannot be expected to think clearly and soberly. Living inside the beltways, gated communities and ivory towers of an obsequious serenity is only a temporary arrangement. Of this we can be sure: complacency is the mother of false immunity. Thus, it comes as no surprise to read Ottawa Citizen editor-in-chief Andrew Potter’s recent article in the National Post in which we are smugly informed that, in the face of multiple casualty attacks, “Canadians should keep calm and carry on” since it would be “an enormous mistake to panic.” After all, he concludes, “the Canadian model is working…much better than it is in the U.S. or in parts of Europe.”
> 
> The witlessness on display here is stunning. The Muslim population in Canada is roughly 3.2% and growing worrisomely; the Canadian multicultural model does not inspire prolonged confidence. In the U.S. estimates tend to vary but the ratio appears to be between 1% and 2.2%, though the raw numbers are larger than Canada’s, somewhere in the vicinity of 3 to 6+ million; in the UK the census proportion is 4.6%; in Germany 5%; and in France it is approximately 10%. Has Potter never heard of the rule of numbers, which Raymond Ibrahim defines as: “The more Muslims grow in numbers, the more Islamic phenomena intrinsic to the Muslim world—in this case, brazen violence against ‘infidels’—appear.” The evidence Ibrahim provides is irrefutable. Incidentally, Potter begins his article by referring to Daniel Pipes as the “all-round scourge of Islam,” which should instantly discredit anything he has to say, given Pipes’ misplaced trust in so-called “moderate” Islam as an antidote to “radical” Islam and his peroxide distinction between “Islamism” and Islam.
> 
> Of course, Potter is no Trifkovic but a representative figure of a culture that has received its talking points from a myopic and self-destructive progressivist zeitgeist. The rhetoric in play in such boilerplate productions comes far too easily, flatters one’s sense of righteousness, and renders us increasingly vulnerable. Its effect is to lull us to sleep while the house is catching fire.
> 
> Furthermore, Islamic violence does not derive from a list of presumably justified complaints and resentments against the West, as many of us have been schooled to believe, and will not cease if we apologize, withdraw or provide reparations. As Ibrahim writes in The Al-Qaeda Reader, Islam’s war with the West “is not finite and limited to political grievances—real or imagined—but is existential, transcending time and space and deeply rooted in faith.” If more proof were needed aside from commonsense attention and a modicum of knowledge, a recent document issued by ISIS, Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You, cited by Ibrahim, makes it strikingly clear: “We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah…we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam, either by becoming Muslims, or by paying jizyah [poll tax]…and living in humiliation under the rule of the Muslims.”
> 
> Let there, then, be no more talk of a “final solution” except where it applies. Meanwhile, there's nothing like a dose of reality to awaken the sleeper and alert him to Islamic Jihad’s chief weapons, our own ignorance and complacency. So far most of us have been pretty well spared. But if our bedtime reverie continues, that’s not going to last forever.


----------



## AbdullahD

1/2





			
				DAVID SOLWAY said:
			
		

> Islamic Jihad’s Most Effective Weapons
> BY DAVID SOLWAY AUGUST 24, 2016 CHAT 44 COMMENTS



Seems like an extremely interesting fellow a Zionist poet, who is a jew and a conservative who is also a known critic of Islam. He actually seems like an extremely intelligent guy, just from the quick read up I did on him.



> Recently I published a pair of articles proposing in the first a series of severe legislative measures to curtail, if not eliminate, the carnage of jihad inflicted upon innocent people in all walks of life, and suggesting in the second that Islam, unlike Christianity, Judaism, and other faiths, should not be entitled to the protection of the First Amendment.



Wait a gosh darn minute here... what and why? Thucydides my good friend, you are now really making me work... because after im done this ill have to read those works as well... heck while your making me find tafsir of these quranic verses below... maybe some of these need qualifications too 

"If a man finds a virgin girl who was not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give fifty [shekels of] silver to the girl’s father, and she shall become his wife, because he violated her. He shall not be able to send her away all the days of his life" Deuteronomy 22:28–29

http://www.dailystormer.com/talmud-pedophilia-the-jewish-religion-allows-sex-with-3-year-old-baby-girls-and-little-boys-under-nine/

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/344783/israel-army-rabbi-once-justified-rape-of-non-jewish-women/

So now I'm actually curious as to how Islam got singled out... MarioMike, I believe I saw or read that you are Jewish fellow and if so I apologize for posting this filth and garbage  (even if your not I apologize to all Jewish people) but I needed to do so to show that.. 'interesting' scriptures are not an uniquely Islamic issue and to hate on Islam because of isolated verses taken out of context is stupidity in the highest form.

And the debunk for the filth... in defence of my Jewish brethren before the anti religion crowd comes  love you guys and your Kosher stuff is halal for me, so God willing we will break bread together one day... also as a side note thank all your brethren who kosher certify stuff, my family and I deeply love you guys for it.

http://m.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1940448/jewish/Does-the-Torah-Punish-a-Rape-Victim.htm



> In the sequel, I received a couple of messages accusing me of promoting a “final solution.” One from a former colleague read: Bravo. Your final solution is so simple and elegant. Another from a friend read, in part: Implicit in all your articles is that Islam…should or be made to disappear. The case against Islam taken to its extreme begins to sound very close to a "final solution." Do we want or should we want to go there?
> 
> My former colleague appears never to have read the Islamic scriptures and ancillary texts and obviously has little knowledge of Islamic history. My friend is considerably more erudite but seems, nonetheless, to believe that direct and aggressive confrontation is not the proper route to take. To imply that I, a Jew, am advocating a “final solution,” an Endlösung, is at the very least rather tactless. It is also, as I hope to show, the height of folly. What I said in my articles is that the terror apparatus needs to be dismantled without delay or equivocation, and that we have to go to the source of the violence, Islam itself.



Honestly, is this guy serious?

To be honest dont bother reading these links... I am still showing that other religions taken out of context have the exact same issues.. or worse...

http://www.thegoldencalfspeaks.com/judaism/human-rights-in-judaism/commands-to-kill-gentiles-in-judaism/

http://www.atheistrev.com/2005/03/bible-commands-christians-to-kill.html?m=1



> I was not advocating killing anyone, or rounding Muslims up in cattle cars and shipping them off to concentration camps, or burning  ghettoes and no-go zones to the ground.
> 
> I said in particular that terror mosques have to be investigated and if necessary shut down (military-grade weapons have been found in a German mosque, but jihadist-inspired sermons are also heavy weapons),



I have no issues with this, at all. If you have some radical Imam, Rabbi or priest propagating hate speech and stockpiling weapons illegally... shut them down and incarcerate them. But do not think for one second that this is an issue that only one religion has. I am sick of finding anti semitic hate speech and atheist trolling of christians to show that other groups have these issues too, so no links.



> that no-go zones have to be disarmed and opened to safe public dwelling,



Can we start in southern USA and Detroit perchance?



> that Sharia, a draconian atavism incompatible with our constitutions, should be outlawed,



See when people are already inclined to believe what you are saying using adjectives effectively reinforces the opinion they hold. So much so you don't even need proof that will stand up to scrutiny. It is actually a very neat tool, given this fellows education I suscpect he knows better then I what he is doing and to be honest I am outmatched in an intellectual battle with him. But given my other explanations in how fluid the sharia is, I won't repeat myself.



> that unscreened immigration simply has to stop, and that the status of Islam as a “religion” entitled to the shelter of the First Amendment is a legitimate issue to be debated—at least until the Koran, Hadith, Sira, schools of jurisprudence, etc. are sanitized, if ever.



Uh huh, my understanding is that immigrants are screened pretty well in Canada. This guy has also just shown his ignorance of Islam or willingness to demonize it even though his own religions books and history has things just as bad or worse.

Re immigration;
http://www.uniivaa.com/84-has-immigration-to-canada-become-far-more-difficult

http://www.cic.gc.ca/englIsh/immigrate/index.asp

Some semi respectable comparative religion stuff;
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/w_comparison_full.htm

(This is actually a piece critical of Islam, im just seeing if people actually read my ramblings lol albeit it has good points)
http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam

And a pro Muslim piece (these guys are fairly trollish)
http://www.answering-christianity.com/death.htm



> My friend replied to a stern rebuke in partial walkback fashion. Of course, I’m not suggesting that you’re advocating an actual “final solution,” that’s absurd…Explicit in your many articles is that any decent, self-respecting, tolerant Muslim should…defect from Islam (reject the Koran, for all the reasons you have been laying out for years). Their example, taken to the extreme, would have Islam disappear gently into the night, which would be like a “final solution.” That’s all I’m saying. He continued: What your latest article doesn’t allow re. religious protection is a reformation within Islam, which I believe has already begun.



It started more then 100 years ago, it is supported by Quran, Hadiths and the Seera of the prophet.



> The question is: how long are we willing to wait for this putative reformation to bear fruit? I see a few "moderates" here and there trying to effect change, but they are having little appreciable impact, and most still adhere to the adulation of Mohammed, turn a blind eye to the dictates of their faith, or pretend the offending passages, with which the scriptures and commentaries are replete, mean something other than what they explicitly say.



I am back to the confirmation bias bit. He is using adjectives very effectively to demonize Islam and yet supplies no proof. To those who went to those disgusting sites earlier know, that all his allegations here.. could also be levelled at judaism. I am simply advocating for fairness in criticism, sure dislike and criticise Islam but apply that same amount of critical analysis to everyone. Just like anyone hating Jews, Christians etc will find in me a very harsh critic.



> A substantial and rooted reformation of Islam is the pipe dream of the cowed and complaisant who cannot face the indigestible fact that Islam is at war with us, has been at war with the Judeo-Christian West (and other civilizations) for fourteen hundred years, and shows no sign of relenting. I’d also suggest—assuming reform were conceivable—that my proposals, if taken seriously, might accelerate the reform my correspondent is piously wishing for. With terror mosques closed and fundamentalist Islam in official disgrace, true reformers might gather momentum. But this is only a thought-experiment.



Complaisant is actually a word not a typo.. anywho the reformation started a 100 and some odd years ago. I think I have talked about the efforts of the Tablighi Jamats before here and the different scholars working around the clock trying to bring real Islam to the surface instead of allowing extremists to get all the media time.

But maulana khandlavi started the tablighi movement a hundred odd years ago.
Mufti Menk is good too
Mufti Abu Layth
Mufti Aasim Rashid
Etc etc

This good fellow suggests, that changing everything Islamic about Islam would help 'reform' it. I could not disagree more, but then again our opinions on what Islam is are very different. If his definition of fundamental means extremist Islam, then I have no issues with shutting down extremists. But I hardly believe that would help accelerate the reformation movement, to many Muslims simply do not practice enough Islam on a daily basis to see any real difference in a theological reformation. All the mis quoted or verses taken out of context are hardly every day issues for 99% of Muslims.


----------



## AbdullahD

2/2





> The exception to the rule of Islamic hegemony, according to Supra Zaida Peery, executive director of Muslim World Today, appears to be Azerbaijan, with its history, at least since independence from the Soviet bloc in 1991, of “egalitarianism, democracy, and rule of law.” Such advancements are possible only where the Islamic scriptures are studiously disregarded, which reinforces the argument that canonical Islam is anti-freedom and an ever-present danger.
> 
> Ms. Peery admits that traditional Islam, honor codes and all, is making a comeback. Azerbaijan also enjoys strong relations with Erdogan’s Turkey, a political alliance that provokes a degree of skepticism respecting Ms. Peery’s claims. Everything considered, I would agree with Danusha Goska’s critical review of Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now—a book which claims that Islam is susceptible, however tardily, to modernization. Goska writes: “We must confront jihad for what it is: a timeless and universal threat that requires an equally timeless and universal response.”



Sorry, current events I am not up on. I will have to look into this. But Jihad is hardly a threat, only a simplistic understanding of it makes it susceptible to being construed as a timeless universal threat.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/123579.50



> I have nothing against Muslims practicing their faith in their homes, as long as they don't take its injunctions to rape, enslave, subjugate and murder in the name of Allah literally, and I have nothing against imams sermonizing from an extensively expurgated Koran—though their temples should have no greater legal status than, say, a Masonic clubhouse.



I am curious does this guy call for the expurgation of the Talmud or Torah? Hell, has he even read it? If he does call for the 'sanitization' of jewish scripture and making Jewish synagogues have the same legal standing as a Mason hall then okay.. but I suspect he does not. So I will just ask for those who don't think other religions have the same injunctions in them, using the same burden of evidence this fine fellow uses for Islam to go to google and check out what the trolls say about religion 'xyz'.



> Meanwhile we line up at airports, remove our shoes, wait interminably to be processed, and expect to be groped—followed by the apprehension, shared by many, that the flight we have boarded may disappear off the radar. Meanwhile the French police are patrolling the beaches lest some "scantily clad" woman or child is knifed by some offended Muslim, as happened not long ago, a Jewish man in Strasbourg is stabbed by an Allahu Akbarist, seven people including a six-year-old child are injured in a “fire and knife” attack on a Swiss train, and an American tourist is stabbed to death in London’s busy Russell Square by a Somalian. “He’s still here, he’s still here,” were the dying woman’s last words, and indeed he is.
> 
> Meanwhile entire cities go into lockdown and people are warned to stay indoors after another jihadist onslaught. Meanwhile Pew polls report that young, second-generation Muslims—those we thought were Westernized “moderates”—increasingly favor death for apostates and gays and harsh punishment for criticism of Islam. Meanwhile countries are being swarmed with military-age “refugees,” a troubling number of whom are estimated to be ISIS plants or sympathizers; German intelligence official Manfred Hauser warns that ISIS has infiltrated the migrant hordes and set up a command structure in the country. Patrick Poole reports that the first two weeks of August 2016 have seen five dozen incidents of Muslim-related domestic insurgency in Europe. (As I write, a Muslim convert armed with detonation devices has just been shot by the RCMP in an Ontario community.)



http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/polis/2015/09/10/how-journalism-is-turning-emotional-and-what-that-might-mean-for-news/

http://www.lifejournal.com/articles/the-brain-emotions-and-writing-why-they-all-work-together/

Using the emotion of fear to sell a point, very well done. I suspect his hammer is coming down soon.



> The very conduct of our lives has changed—it’s called the “new normal.” We now hear from the lips of French Prime Minister Manuel Valls that we will have to “learn to live with terrorism.” Is this OK? Are we prepared to accept the limitations upon our traditional freedoms and the ever-present threat of violence upon our persons as a customary aspect of daily life in the hope that one day in the indefinite future the “religion of peace” will become a religion of peace? As things stand, our enemies are laughing all the way to the future.



See when you look at facts the emotional effect goes away. I aint scared of terrorism and neither should you be. In fact I am more scared of being done in by a bear or cougar on september 10th when god willing i drop that 4 point Muley buck I've been tracking, then I am of being offed by a terrorist... ie not at all.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2015001-eng.htm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-to-hear/5382818

http://en.cijnews.com/?p=10759



> More to the point, the irony very few observers wish to acknowledge—and certainly not my interlocutors—is that it is no one and nothing but Islam that is pursuing a "final solution "—and not only for Jews. Read the Koran and the Hadith. Consider, among many other passages and commands:



Dear Thucydides;

When someone asks me to explain something about my religion in an honest open manner, I will. But you owe me coffee oh and my wife chocolate  joking... but I do not and will not under any circumstances give an explanation of Quran from my own understanding. I will only use accepted tafsirs, because I lack the knowledge to do it myself and I do not want to ruin the Image of Islam by my ignorance.. well any worse then I already do.

A primer 
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askmufti/45514

Koran 2:191-193 (And kill them wherever you find them…)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/08/12/quran-2191-and-kill-them-wherever-you-find-them-explained/

Koran 2:216 (Fighting is prescribed for you…)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/08/16/2216-fighting-is-enjoined-on-you/

Koran 3:151 (Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers…)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/08/22/quran-3151-soon-shall-we-cast-terror-into-the-hearts-of-the-unbelievers/

Koran 4:74 (Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other...be he slain or victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/08/24/quran-474-77-let-those-fight-in-the-way-of-allah-critics-deceit-exposed/

Koran 8:39 (And fight with them until there is no more unbelief and religion is all for Allah)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/09/30/quran-839-and-fight-with-them-until-there-is-no-more-fitna-persecution/

Koran 9:5: (When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them…—though jihadists today do not wait for the sacred months to pass)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/03/04/quran-95-sword-verse/

Koran 9:21 (Fight those who believe not in Allah…even if they are People of the Book—i.e., Jews and Christians)

Unless I am to tired.. it looks like this one is misquoted... 9:21 shows something different to me...
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=9&verse=23&to=24

Koran 9:41 (Go forth, light armed and heavy armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/10/11/quran-938-39-and-quran-941-42-tabuk/

Koran 9:73 (O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them…)

https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/10/14/quran-973-strive-hard-against-the-unbelievers-tabuk/



> Hadith, Sahih Muslim 041,6985: (Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger [may peace be upon him] as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him…)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Muslim 020,4712: (You shall conquer many lands and Allah will grant you victories over your enemies in battle, but none of you should stop practicing for war.)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4,52,196: (I have been directed to fight the Kafir until everyone admits “There is only one god and that is Allah.”)
> 
> Hadith Sahih Muslim 020,4681: (Certainly the gates of Paradise lie in the shade of swords), and 020,4696: (The man who dies without participating in jihad, who never desired to wage war, dies the death of a hypocrite.).



I can not fine a good tafsir of hadiths online, Im sorry and my collection of hadiths with tafsir's do not hold these in the collection. So doubly sorry.

So I can not comment to far.. but I will make a couple points.
-A prophecy is not a religious commandment. I have posted enough regarding religious tolerance, to not post more.
-I think a prophecy regarding winning wars is innocent enough... it came true and the practicing for war more military minded people can explain the logic in it... but it seems sensible.
-the other posts on jihad I need a proper tafsir and I can not find. Hadiths need to be taken in context of why they were said, to who and when.



> This is a radically abbreviated gazette; the litany does not stop there. And one must remember that these are the words of the Prophet and his God; as such they are incumbent upon every believing Muslim, and form the basis for the war of civilizations that began in the early 7th century and has not abated since. If we insist that this does not constitute a “final solution,” then we are quite simply lying to ourselves and deserve the fate that will befall us. To adapt the Islamic terminology, we are “unbelievers” in the sense that we refuse to believe our eyes and we are “hypocrites” in that we condemn others both for our cowardice and for the very crimes of Islam.



https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/battles-islam

I can't find any graphs comparing wars from the Islamic theater vs European theatre. To compare and see the difference during medieval and Renaissance era's, but from my limited knowledge christians and other religions were non to peaceful either. So to isolate Islam and not give its historical context is interesting and suspect to me, but I lack the google skills to compare them.



> Serge Trifkovic, foreign affairs editor of the political magazine Chronicles, author of The Sword of the Prophet, and professor of international relations at the University of Banja Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina, foresees the Islamic conquista of a “soft, genderless” Europe, expedited by “an implacably suicidal ruling class.” Trifkovic is worth attending to. The last paragraph of his chilling and premonitory article, “Europe’s Dark Hour,” reads in part: “The lesson of Europe for America is clear: The emergence of an autonomous and politically untouchable Muslim diaspora must be prevented. It is in the American interest for the U.S. government to introduce an open-ended moratorium on Muslim immigration now, while those who are present still lack the numbers and infrastructure to wreak havoc. In addition, Islamic activism should be treated as grounds for the exclusion or deportation of any alien…The alternative is the predictable pattern of terrorist violence, social corrosion, and cultural decline that we are witnessing in today’s Europe.”



Oh my god, due to twisted and misquoted Quranic verses and a few random hadiths he calls for deportation, oppression and ostracism of all Muslims.. I am a Muslim activist.. I do wonder where I would be deported to... 



> Meanwhile the killings and atrocities will continue, increasing in frequency and scale. At the same time Islam is embedding itself in our governments and social institutions. So how long are we willing to wait? I suspect that if we ourselves are harmed, if the people we love are maimed or murdered, our patience might run out. I suspect that if we are hauled into court by some Muslim organization (I speak from experience) for exercising our free-speech rights and speaking truth backed by evidence, and emerge beaten, humiliated or nearly bankrupt—because the plaintiff is flush with Qatari cash and we have only a salary and a suborned judiciary--we might find ourselves short of tolerant forbearance. I suspect that if we are on the receiving end, not of counter arguments but of death threats and salvos of unspeakable vulgarity (I speak from experience), we might think this has gone on long enough. I suspect that if we find ourselves fired from our jobs or fined large sums of money because of a Facebook post deemed offensive by our Islamophilic authorities, we might find ourselves less forgiving.



To bad this guy didn't learn. Bigotry is pathetic, maybe the reason he was beat is because he was promoting hatred hmmm...

Any rate, I am back to the demonizing innocents over the acts of terrorists spiel... if we did this for all groups no innocents would survive...



> But those who have so far managed to keep a safe distance from the looming storm cannot be expected to think clearly and soberly. Living inside the beltways, gated communities and ivory towers of an obsequious serenity is only a temporary arrangement. Of this we can be sure: complacency is the mother of false immunity. Thus, it comes as no surprise to read Ottawa Citizen editor-in-chief Andrew Potter’s recent article in the National Post in which we are smugly informed that, in the face of multiple casualty attacks, “Canadians should keep calm and carry on” since it would be “an enormous mistake to panic.” After all, he concludes, “the Canadian model is working…much better than it is in the U.S. or in parts of Europe.”



I believe I posted links earlier showing extremism is not a legitimate fear in Canada for the vast majority of people... and yet he uses emotion to rouse people to hating Muslims. This is very saddening at best.



> The witlessness on display here is stunning. The Muslim population in Canada is roughly 3.2% and growing worrisomely; the Canadian multicultural model does not inspire prolonged confidence. In the U.S. estimates tend to vary but the ratio appears to be between 1% and 2.2%, though the raw numbers are larger than Canada’s, somewhere in the vicinity of 3 to 6+ million; in the UK the census proportion is 4.6%; in Germany 5%; and in France it is approximately 10%. Has Potter never heard of the rule of numbers, which Raymond Ibrahim defines as: “The more Muslims grow in numbers, the more Islamic phenomena intrinsic to the Muslim world—in this case, brazen violence against ‘infidels’—appear.” The evidence Ibrahim provides is irrefutable. Incidentally, Potter begins his article by referring to Daniel Pipes as the “all-round scourge of Islam,” which should instantly discredit anything he has to say, given Pipes’ misplaced trust in so-called “moderate” Islam as an antidote to “radical” Islam and his peroxide distinction between “Islamism” and Islam.
> 
> Of course, Potter is no Trifkovic but a representative figure of a culture that has received its talking points from a myopic and self-destructive progressivist zeitgeist. The rhetoric in play in such boilerplate productions comes far too easily, flatters one’s sense of righteousness, and renders us increasingly vulnerable. Its effect is to lull us to sleep while the house is catching fire.
> 
> Furthermore, Islamic violence does not derive from a list of presumably justified complaints and resentments against the West, as many of us have been schooled to believe, and will not cease if we apologize, withdraw or provide reparations. As Ibrahim writes in The Al-Qaeda Reader, Islam’s war with the West “is not finite and limited to political grievances—real or imagined—but is existential, transcending time and space and deeply rooted in faith.” If more proof were needed aside from commonsense attention and a modicum of knowledge, a recent document issued by ISIS, Why We Hate You & Why We Fight You, cited by Ibrahim, makes it strikingly clear: “We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah…we have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they submit to the authority of Islam, either by becoming Muslims, or by paying jizyah [poll tax]…and living in humiliation under the rule of the Muslims.”
> 
> Let there, then, be no more talk of a “final solution” except where it applies. Meanwhile, there's nothing like a dose of reality to awaken the sleeper and alert him to Islamic Jihad’s chief weapons, our own ignorance and complacency. So far most of us have been pretty well spared. But if our bedtime reverie continues, that’s not going to last forever.



I'm tired and done with this article of hate speech. This chap can not see clear between extremists and normal Muslims.

All my earlier links will have been in vain if the difference is not plain yet.

Abdullah


----------



## Lightguns

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The German government finally steps off the X. Asking people to stockpile food and water is telling them to become more aware and self reliant. Making a society more robust is a good way to both mitigate the effects of attacks, and also start getting more people able to spot warning signs and respond to attacks, shutting them down early:
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-tell-people-stockpile-food-water-case-attacks-154318206--sector.html



6 months ago a German would have been called an alarmist and conspiracy theorist for suggesting the very same.  Damn those "Free Masons" look what they have to us!!!


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]
I'm tired and done with this article of hate speech. This chap can not see clear between extremists and normal Muslims.


[/quote]

Speaking for myself I have a hard time seeing the like between extremists and normal Muslims myself.

For example, the first picture are extremists I'd say. Second picture, probably. What about the third?  Where IS the line?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhammer, that is the world. We are all a hodge-podge mixture of ideas and beliefs. But the vast majority of Muslims are okay.

 public protests etc I have no issue with... the tenor of the signs are a wee bit suspect but I can not fault them for that. But even extremists have some "normal" values in their belief systems and the more normal the radical or radicalizing person is, the more normal values exist.

The trick is for us to recognize which beliefs are normal and which are not and correct them. In a democratic country, being politically active I can not fault... even if I personally do not like it (which I dont sometimes). But the signs about murdering and butchering those who insult Islam and the prophet are extreme at best.

But the default position with so many critics of Islam and Muslims is that Muslims are extremists and are of fundamental beliefs by nature. When that is simply not the case. I would prefer the innocent until proven guilty apply to Muslims.

Talk to Muslims and you will see we are Normal. Then figure out how to draw the line for yourself, for yourself. Because everyones personal beliefs are different and I suspect winning you over to being all cuddly with Islam will be hard 

Abdullah


----------



## jollyjacktar

Abdullah, I have a big issue with the sign on the left.  The one on the right, is just stupid but stupid isn't as bad as what's on the left.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Abdullah, I have a big issue with the sign on the left.  The one on the right, is just stupid but stupid isn't as bad as what's on the left.



Islam the solution for france or the devils religion? 

To be honest the entire scene gives me the goosebumbs and if I was in that area when that was happening I would be wondering what the heck they were doing and why.

The religion of the devil, is a derogatory insult that if my child ever held a sign like that I would be ashamed to my core. So it actually ticks me off Muslims are stupid enough to do idiocy like this.

The Islam is the solution for france, in a political sense is sinister but in a spiritual sense not so bad. But taken in context with the other signs it is concerning.

So yea, I'm none to pleased either. But other more wholesome protests and lobbying im okay with. This particular scene I am not.

Ps if your talking about the middle picture... id slap both ****** and those beliefs have no place in Islam.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'm only seeing the middle (?) picture with "massacre those who insult Islam" and "Freedom go to hell".  That, and the poor bastards in the orange jumpsuits.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm only seeing the middle (?) picture with "massacre those who insult Islam" and "Freedom go to hell".  That, and the poor bastards in the orange jumpsuits.



Oh I see a third picture below that. But the one you are seeing, id be extremely worried about.

Stupidity knows no bounds at the first two pictures seem to be the epitome of stupidity.

I really should post pictures of Muslims doing good acts at inter faith meetings or other such places... but I have no time and I am sure everyone knows about it anyways


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Stupidity knows no bounds at the first two pictures seem to be the epitome of stupidity.



Well, the third one is not far behind either.

But you are right: Stupidity knows no bound - and kicking the ladder you are standing on is certainly a common human act of stupidity regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or any other form of distinction you can think of.

I have refrained from posting since this little burkini fracas started, but I think one of the point I have always made in the past is worth repeating:

The solution on determining how we should act here in the West is to me fairly easy: It hinges on the distinction between "freedoms" and "rights".

A Freedom is something inherently personal: an individual has the enjoyment of his/her own freedom. Whereas a right is something that you may oppose to someone else through the power of the state.

Freedom of speech: You can talk until you are blue in the face, but it is not a right and you cannot demand that anyone else be forced to stop and listen to you. Property is a right: If someone tries to take it away from you, the courts will upon your demand enforce your property right against others.

Where I am going is this: In the West, we have freedom of religion and belief (some say - rightly so that it includes freedom from religion). This means any individual has the right to believe what he/she will and accept/reject any god (or gods) or religious beliefs and agree to personally abide by those. But there is no right to religion or belief and therefore, whatever you may believe or religion you follow, you cannot, under any circumstances demand that anybody else (watch out here: that includes the fact that you cannot demand it of either your spouse or your children or any other relative) through compulsion of the state be forced to act on the basis of your belief or religion. Nor can you, yourself , act in any way that imposes  any one of your personal belief/religious requirements on any body else.

So, for example: 

You want to bathe in a burkini because you believe it is the modesty asked of you by your religion: No problem, you are free to do so.

You refuse your wife the right to go to the beach unless she wears a burkini because you believe that's the interpretation of your religion: Too bad. She is not property and she has the freedom to decide how she dresses for herself like any other human being.

You don't want to look at woman's skin because the talmud says women should not show skin: Don't look -that's fine, you are free to abstain.

You demand that the Gym you walk by every day cover its front windows because you can see women lightly clad when you walk by and it's contrary to your religion: Too bad - so sad. Those women are free to do as they want and you have no right to impose your religious views on them. 

When the distinction is made it becomes a lot easier to decide what is an accommodation that should be made and what shouldn't. And what should constitute an illegal act, such as harassing women or other people in the public space because they do not "conform" to "your" religious practices - which ought to be severely punished wherever it occurs.

All respectfully submitted for your consideration.


----------



## Journeyman

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> All respectfully submitted for your consideration.


And therein lies the snag -- some topics here just don't seem amenable to respect or consideration;  some "discussions" seem to actively drive those away.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

mariomike said:
			
		

> Some of the more self reliant types may also stockpile cash for the Black Market.



Cash could possibly be worth nothing except to wipe your ass. If a government fails, so does their bank. Little valuable, easily carried items, for trading, would likely be better. Some other stuff with great trade value would be simple bare necessities of life.

https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A0LEV2dPlMBX2vcA5EDrFAx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=Simple+Bare+Necessaties&fr=mcafee#id=5&vid=0a4b9a1e1cf04dbaa602646572301e23&action=view


----------



## a_majoor

I generally follow the same line as OBGD, you can do what you like, so long as you don't do anything harmful to me or others, or deprive them of their rights. Even the people holding the signs (repugnant as some of the signs are) are free to hold the signs, I draw the line when they want to _act_ on them.

The Hadiths and Koranic verses have context, just like verses in the Bible or even the Rig Veda, which is why in the post upthread I wanted to understand them. Without context, they can mean anything (which is the problem in the article, the statements are stripped of context), and knowing and understanding the context means that counter messaging can be designed and deployed.


----------



## AbdullahD

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I generally follow the same line as OBGD, you can do what you like, so long as you don't do anything harmful to me or others, or deprive them of their rights. Even the people holding the signs (repugnant as some of the signs are) are free to hold the signs, I draw the line when they want to _act_ on them.
> 
> The Hadiths and Koranic verses have context, just like verses in the Bible or even the Rig Veda, which is why in the post upthread I wanted to understand them. Without context, they can mean anything (which is the problem in the article, the statements are stripped of context), and knowing and understanding the context means that counter messaging can be designed and deployed.



I agree with you and OBGD, in the statements just made.

But I want to make one thing abundantly clear again... just for my own conscience.

I am in no way shape or form a person who is qualified within Islam to give rulings. I don't have ijazah or anything, I dedicated a portion of my life to theistic studies yes. But I am not a qualified person to teach Islam.

So I can be wrong and misguided, I personally consider the majority of my positions very well substantiated. But I can be wrong.

God willing I have zero issues helping and vetting Islamic information using my own personal biases. But please don't think I am qualified to do anything more then just relay authentic information.

Ok good, it is off my chest now  the sentiments found on this website, makes me proud to be canadian even those that are critical of Islam are conveyed respectfully for the most part. So I am happy to be here and learn about what to expect in the next leg of my life. But I am ignorant too, maybe less so in regards to Islam, but still ignorant  

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> the sentiments found on this website, makes me proud to be canadian even those that are critical of Islam are conveyed respectfully for the most part.



So proud you couldn't be bothered to capitalize Canada?! Heretic.

Just kidding but seriously I'm probably one of the most critical people of Islam here, no surprise there of course.  I'm also not very articulate so I'm sure I sound like a goon (people use the word bigot wrong  )
If I'm being honest a big part of me thinks the world would simply be better off without Islam but be that as it may it's nice to be able to debate Islam and Muslim issues with you (and others) in civil tones in an environment like we have here.


----------



## George Wallace

Remember this:  "A Canadian is a Canadian, is a Canadian"?  Well, that is a very naive sentiment and one that should definitely have some considerations to it.  Here is a case, where the Liberal "PEACEKEEPING" ideals falls flat on its face; not necessarily about our military, but about our concept that Canadians as a whole are "Peacekeepers".


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Bangladesh police kill Canadian suspect in restaurant attack
> Tamim Chowdhury, 2 others, killed after raid on house in Narayanganj district near Dhaka
> The Associated Press Posted: Aug 27, 2016 6:46 AM ET Last Updated: Aug 28, 2016 8:57 AM ET
> 
> Bangladeshi authorities say a Canadian man suspected of organizing a deadly attack on a popular restaurant in Dhaka has been killed in a police raid near the capital.
> 
> The country's top counter-terrorism official says officers killed three suspected militants early Saturday, including Bangladeshi-born Canadian Tamim Chowdhury.
> 
> He had lived in Ontario with his family and completed a chemistry degree at the University of Windsor but left Canada in 2013 in a suspected attempt to travel to Syria.
> 
> Police accuse Chowdhury of being one of two masterminds behind the July attack on the Holey Artisan Bakery that left 20 people dead, 17 of them foreigners.
> 
> He's also suspected to have led a July 7 attack on a prayer gathering near Dhaka that left four people dead, including two police officers.
> 
> Police sharpshooters raided a two-story house in Narayanganj district near the capital, Dhaka, after receiving a tip that Chowdhury and others were hiding there, top counterterrorism official Monirul Islam said.
> 
> Global Affairs Canada issued a statement Saturday saying it was "aware of news reports that Tamim Chowdhury was killed in Bangladesh."
> 
> "Canadian officials are in contact with Bangladeshi authorities to gather additional information," the statement said. "No further details can be provided at this time."
> 
> The militants belonged to the banned group Jumatul Mujahedeen Bangladesh, or JMB, Bangladesh's police chief A.K.M. Shahidul Hoque told reporters.
> 
> Police said they found guns, ammunition and meat cleavers in the apartment where the men were holed up. The men also set off explosions to destroy their computers and other evidence, said Sanwar Hossain, a senior police officer.
> 
> "We heard explosions inside the apartment and we understood that they were destroying evidence," Hossain said. "When we felt that they would not surrender, we made our final push and killed them."
> 
> When police forced their way into the apartment, they found two bodies near the main door, and Chowdhury's body was found in another room, Hossain said.
> 
> Bangladeshi police have been conducting raids across the country to hunt those behind the attacks.
> 
> After storming the building Saturday, a SWAT team made the final push and fatally shot the suspects after they failed to surrender. Haque said the team asked them to give themselves up but that they kept on firing.
> 
> The group Islamic State in Iraq and Syria claimed responsibility for the restaurant attack, but authorities have denied the claim, saying it was the act of the JMB and that ISIS has no presence in the Muslim-majority country.
> 
> *University of Toronto student transferred to prison*
> 
> The family of ​Tahmid Hasib Khan, a University of Toronto student who was detained in Bangladesh after surviving the restaurant attack, says he has been transferred to prison.
> 
> Khan's family has maintained the 22-year-old, who is a permanent resident of Canada, is innocent.
> 
> "We want the court to affirm what we know — which is that he is innocent," said Khan's older brother, Talha, who is a Canadian citizen. "We want to take him to a mental health professional as soon as possible because of the trauma that he's been through. But I don't think it's going to be any time soon."
> 
> Khan arrived in Dhaka on July 1 to celebrate Eid with his family, and planned to travel to Nepal to begin an internship with UNICEF the following week. He was with friends at the Holey Artisan Bakery when five armed gunmen attacked. ​
> 
> With files from The Canadian Press
> © The Associated Press, 2016



More on [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bangladesh-restaurant-attack-1.3738298

With his Degree in Chemistry, one could suspect him as being a "Bomb maker", and definitely a High Value Target of the anti-terrorist operatives.


----------



## AbdullahD

So I have been doing more digging on those hadith for online source of a tafsir of them and a complete collection of sahih bukhari to validate them.... and from what I see one of the hadiths he quotes.. does not exist.

The hadith he quoted for vol 4 book 52 #96 is as follows... which is radically different then what he posted. What I found;

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

What he quoted;
Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4,52,196: (I have been directed to fight the Kafir until everyone admits “There is only one god and that is Allah.”)

The hadith that I found, is very much different imo. It has now become a pet project, but finding tafsir of hadith is tough. I want to see which arabic words were used, because it could make a huge difference ie spiritual vs physical fight etc and see when and who it was said to.

Abdullah


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

You know, Abdullah, if every religion on earth took the position and view that ALL punishment for not following the "law" of their religion is to be meted out by their god and only their god  - never acting through a human being, and that no human has either the right nor the authority to dispense god's judgement here on earth, I would be a very happy man.

Human political society would still be allowed punishment for purposes of human justice, but only for acts between humans found unacceptable further to humanly determined laws, not ever used themselves to impose any religious tenet (such as blasphemy, for instance, which to me is not a "human" crime).

That would solve a lot of problems on this little speck of the Universe we live on.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> So I have been doing more digging on those *hadith* for online source of a* tafsir* of them and a complete collection of *sahih bukhari* to validate them.... and from what I see one of the hadiths he quotes.. does not exist.



So if I understand it correctly Islamic scholars take it upon themselves to decipher the Koran and can basically come up with different rules and laws on their own? Like a _thou shall not pokemon_ ruling?



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> You know, Abdullah, if every religion on earth took the position and view that ALL punishment for not following the "law" of their religion is to be meted out by their god and only their god  - never acting through a human being, and that no human has either the right nor the authority to dispense god's judgement here on earth, I would be a very happy man.


One of the most intelligent things regarding religion I've ever read and would probably save a billion lives in our lifetime alone.


----------



## George Wallace

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> The hadith that I found, is very much different imo. It has now become a pet project, but finding tafsir of hadith is tough. I want to see which arabic words were used, because it could make a huge difference ie spiritual vs physical fight etc and see when and who it was said to.
> 
> Abdullah



As English has evolved over the centuries, as has other languages, the original meanings of some words have changed over time and with context.  It is likely that the Arabic languages are no different.  This would be compounded, as well, as more words are added to a language to differentiate between the various nuances of a series of words for a certain thing.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> One of the most intelligent things regarding religion I've ever read and would probably save a billion lives in our lifetime alone.



I'm with you 100% on this one.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> So if I understand it correctly Islamic scholars take it upon themselves to decipher the Koran and can basically come up with different rules and laws on their own? Like a _thou shall not pokemon_ ruling?





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> As English has evolved over the centuries, as has other languages, the original meanings of some words have changed over time and with context.  It is likely that the Arabic languages are no different.  This would be compounded, as well, as more words are added to a language to differentiate between the various nuances of a series of words for a certain thing.



George is 100% right, Arabic has changed over the last 1,400 years. So arabic speaking people who read the Quran and Hadith's are not getting the full understanding. It has not changed quite as much as english, but it is still changed.

Not all Islamic scholars are qualified to decipher the Quran and on top of that those qualified to decipher the Quran may, not be eligible to decipher Hadiths because they are two different areas of studies. A rough break down in order of easiness to toughest  (roughly) is as follows and levels of knowledge.

1-Hafiz; someone who has memorized the Quran and nothing else, he can simply recite the entire Quran by memory. That is all, he may not even understand what he is saying, which is usually the case in areas like Pakistan and India.

2-Qari; Qari's have perfected the pronunciation and intonation of recitation of the Quran and nothing else, albeit sometimes they are also taught the correct way to perform prayer. 

3-Alim; they usually have done 6 years of studies on average, usually only taking one month off a year for Ramadan and then 5 or 6 days a week in studies at Madrasah's or Darul Uloom's which are were the majority of Islamic scholars are certified in our own rites.

4-Mufti; they have completed their Alim studies and have usually done the Hafiz studies as well. They have performed more in depth studies and are able to give Quran tafsir on the spot due to extensive studies. But very rarely will they make their own. Mufti's have completed studies in the arabic language from the time of the prophet pbuh, to understand the linguistic nuances of the Quran to some extent and the historical context of the verses of when where and why the verse came down. Now mufti studies usually take an extra 2 or 3 years on top of Alim studies, but they can continue for many many years depending on how deep they wish to go.

Some Mufti's specialize in Quranic tafsir, or explanation of Hadiths, or the different legal rulings, or different spiritual aspects and how they pertain in this day and age. So just because someone is a Mufti doesnt mean he will create a explanation for you, but it does mean generally he can give you one from one of the tafsirs already in existence. But having said that, you have to go to the right Alim for what you wish to understand...

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:

http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam


----------



## YZT580

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah

Your prejudices are showing. That is a totally arrogant statement.  By the same token, you will agree that you have no right to comment regarding Christianity and about the Jewish faith since you have not put 8 or 10 years into studying these faiths. 

One of the leaders of ISIS was asked why he became radicalized.  (He was a well-educated gentleman).  His reply:"I read the Quran"  and that is what it says.  You can preach all you want about ISIS not presenting the true face of Islam to the world but a simple reading of your book reveals a text chock full of hate; a book that ridicules all those who do not follow its tenets, a book that authorizes its followers to murder all those who do not follow its teachings and a book that presents an self-confessed pedophile as an example for others to follow. It doesn't take 10 years to discover the hate.  But maybe it takes that amount of study to discover love or respect for others that don't think as the prophet would have liked. Tell me, is one of the names for God in the Quron Father?


----------



## AbdullahD

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:
> 
> http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam



It is always interesting to me when political parties or politically active people quote the Quran and do not stop to think it is also in other holy books.

I always thought the PR handlers would want to avoid that stuff. But then again if the average voter they are going after buys it hook line and sinker, they wont look in their own closets.

Thus those awkward questions wont be asked... meh maybe I am arrogant. I sometimes wonder if showing those same style verses in other religions would help this bigotry, but I cant bring myself to think bigotry and ignorance is the right answer to bigotry and ignorance.

Oh for the record im not saying all people who dislike Islam and Muslims are ignorant bigots. I am just saying there is a faction wether large or small who are.

Abdullah

Ps my threshold for calling politicians and other educated peoples bigots is much lower, because they have teams of peoples or should understand these nuances. I am also not necessarily saying this lady is a bigot either. I was talking generally. I also expect to be called a bigot by the membership here if I ever make such ignorant statements about other religions. So this stick goes both ways, the ignorant and poor normal folks get a bigger lee way.


----------



## a_majoor

I have been spending time reading some of the links AbdullahD kindly provided, and I have come to a conclusion that meshes with some of the comments upthread. Essentially this is the argument that Samuel Huntington made in "The Clash of Civilizations", the meaning of the words and phrases is different.

Not just different in that the language has evolved over 1400 years, but literally the concepts being described by the same words are different in different cultural groups. 

To use a Western example, the concept of citizen has evolved over the centuries. A Citizen with political rights in the 18th century would be a property owning male, while our definition of citizen is vastly expanded. Now consider how the same concept is interpreted in a different cultural group.

Huntington suggests that it is a characteristic of _all_ cultures ("Civilizations" in his term) and the misunderstandings of terms like "Justice", "Rights" and so on is going to lead to conflict between cultural groups. Deradicalization of groups embedded in the larger polity will be more difficult since we are literally not talking about the same things.


----------



## AbdullahD

Now that is a very interesting observation, I think I may have to purchase this book.

Thanks for the link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting approach ...
_*"On 15th Anniversary Of 9/11, Al-Qaeda Leader Al-Zawahiri Urges Mujahideen To Focus On Targeting U.S., Incites Black Christians Against U.S. And Calls Them To Islam"*_
Sounds almost Illinois Nazi  ;D


----------



## AbdullahD

As a little expansion on the possessiveness post from the culture thread, I will add this. Very rarely do rascists, misogynists and bigots think they are any such thing, they usually have excuses and alleged logic to why they act that way. So I will keep an eye on this particular thing and try to be conscious of it, especially on here, but do know I accept the FACT that I have negative traits or characteristics. But I always strive to improve myself, so if I do have this failing, I will try to improve. 

Anywho my wifes thoughts 



			
				MrsDimion said:
			
		

> It doesn't really matter if women and men pray in the same room or in different rooms. When we celebrate Eid, depending on weather and how many show up we might be praying outside. The women pray behind the men just like they did hundreds of years ago and still do today in some places. During hajj men and women pray side by side. I would say women having their own room to pray in is a luxury. They can come and go to the bathroom/wudhu station without having to wait for men. They can also take their time with prayers and even bring their children along and be able to congregate with eachother without bothering the men. Women don't normally go to the mosque unless it is Friday or for celebration prayers. They go to these prayers because unlike the other prayers there is always a sermon. Women want to be able to go to the mosque and listen to these sermons but some men dont approve of children being in the mosque and so women with children avoid attending these prayers. When they have there own room they can bring their children and not worry about bothering then men. So there you have it women having their own room is a luxury.



Now jarnhammer you think that a higher percent of woman are opressed and I think a minute number are oppressed. But regardless if it is Muslim Men oppressing Muslim women or they are just percieved to be oppressed by the 'west' it could and does fuel Islamophobia, which fuels radical recruitment of disenfranchised Muslims.

Anywho I am being attacked by kids ttyl
Abdullah


----------



## Kirkhill

In my church the kids were sent to the basement for Sunday School, for exactly the same reasons.

No problems with anyone's personal choices so long as they are personal choices and don't impact my personal choices.

Just don't make me go to Sunday School again.....


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> As a little expansion on the possessiveness post from the culture thread, I will add this. Very rarely do rascists, misogynists and bigots think they are any such thing, they usually have excuses and alleged logic to why they act that way. So I will keep an eye on this particular thing and try to be conscious of it, especially on here, but do know I accept the FACT that I have negative traits or characteristics. But I always strive to improve myself, so if I do have this failing, I will try to improve.


Glad to be of assistance 
I'm generally intolerant of religion and other cultural practices I find barbaric or doesn't progress the human race. I may work on it one day, I have some pretty lofty plans for us as a species.



> Anywho my wifes thoughts


Could be me being condemnatory or analytical but one of the last comments your wife gave me pause for thought.


> and not worry about bothering the men.






> Now jarnhammer you think that a higher percent of woman are opressed and I think a minute number are oppressed. But regardless if it is Muslim Men oppressing Muslim women or they are just percieved to be oppressed by the 'west' it could and does fuel Islamophobia, *which fuels radical recruitment of disenfranchised Muslims.*



I wonder about this statement (as I've seen it mentioned elsewhere). It almost feels like it's blaming radicalism primarily on the west. A Muslim feels like the west hates Islam so he goes out becomes radicalized and attacks the west. Couldn't it be said the foundation for that way of thinking is based in someones up bringing and religion first and foremost? Such as from the link of the school int he UK I posted with the teacher and kids? Kill someone for leaving Islam. Kill someone for being gay. Kill those who aren't Islam.

I actually think our First Nations youth suffer from this sort of poisoned up bringing too. Whites/settlers hate them, it's their fault they're living in poverty.


----------



## AbdullahD

I can not say it is primarily the 'wests' fault for radicalized idiots, because that removes the onus from the people doing the acts to much.

We can say the 'west' as it is called in some circles, has played a hand in the problems that exist in the world today. But that is the nature of the world, every action has a reaction. But that is no excuse to be a terrorist. Maybe it is the teachers of this day and age, including parents, who do not give kids the skills to separate people from the problem or the actions of a 'few' xyz skin color or religion from the majority. Which leads to these issues we have wether it is victim blaming, hating the west or any such silly rhetoric that leads to extremism of any kind.

It is also sad that legitimate criticism's that Muslim, Native or White etc people all have can not stay in context. A lot of us judge another group with zero idea about the truth of the reality of the situation... when if we could view the facts and truth of any issues that arise and separate our emotions.. we would all progress much better.

Also I will note, although I am sure you guys already know... any Muslim who is teaching that Islam calls for killing as the answer to xyz problems, really needs to be watched carefully and removed from that position of power over little children. I admit propagating these idiotic positions that are not supported is making the disconnect to extremism even smaller. So it is another piece of the puzzle.

Abdullah

Ps I used certain terms for ease of explanation, I very rarely think in such binary ways.


----------



## George Wallace

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> We can say the 'west' as it is called in some circles, has played a hand in the problems that exist in the world today. But that is the nature of the world, every action has a reaction.



Now we are getting into "Revisionist History".  Of course, for every action there is a reaction.  It, however, seems to be very convenient of the Islamic world to forget that it was Islamic invasions into Europe that created the friction in the first place.  Long before the Crusades, there was the invasion of Spain and France by the Moors.  Let's not forget the invasions into Eastern Europe as well, some of them the most bloody in history.  Legends were even created.  Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, a member of the House of Drăculești, became one such legend.  

For a Timeline, look here.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Hard to stir shit up with your peeps by playing the poor downtrodden innocent victim when you're in fact the shit disturber to begin with.  It's just not convenient.


----------



## AbdullahD

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now we are getting into "Revisionist History".  Of course, for every action there is a reaction.  It, however, seems to be very convenient of the Islamic world to forget that it was Islamic invasions into Europe that created the friction in the first place.  Long before the Crusades, there was the invasion of Spain and France by the Moors.  Let's not forget the invasions into Eastern Europe as well, some of them the most bloody in history.  Legends were even created.  Vlad III, Prince of Wallachia, a member of the House of Drăculești, became one such legend.
> 
> For a Timeline, look here.



George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years. Not ancient history, but something worth noting is the wars every other group were launching during the same time period.

I was alluding to things like the sykes picot deal, the overthrow of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. So that is what I will touch on.

How the war on terror made the world unsafe;
http://www.alternet.org/story/48620/the_war_on_terror_is_the_leading_cause_of_terrorism

The US/Western intervention;
https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

Sykes picot agreement and its effects;
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/How-Sykes-Picot-Is-the-Root-of-Syria-Iraq-Sectarian-Conflicts-20160513-0028.html

Now revisionist history to me is a pejorative term, but if you feel I am distorting facts do call me on it. I have really only studied Islamic warfare from the time of the prophet up until the last of the four rightly guided caliphs, the issue of who started these ancient wars are not that big to me and if your sources say it was only group 'a' or group 'b's fault then I would definetly double check.

But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.

But here is a link to the very beginning... it is a youtube series by a speaker I respect.

Mufti Menk - Life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEe4sh5Y1RVOHOZHpRY6uCKcTeoYF_Gge

But do not think I do not accept Muslims or people claiming to be Muslims have done extremely bad things, because I do. I just do not think we are special in that regard.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]
 the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years.
[/quote]

If you ask me the US is guilty of causing a lot of this shit in the first place; fanning the flames of radicalism and strife abroad. War is a business and there's a lot of money and friends to be made supplying the US war machine.  Halliburton made what, 40 billion dollars from the gulf war? Both sides feed off each other.


----------



## George Wallace

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years.



Now this is a generalization, and a case of demonizing the Americans, where other nations have also been involved; some of them Middle Eastern.



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.



Agreed.  The Sykes Picot Agreement has played a major part in the situation today.  An act of reprisal against the Ottoman Empire after WW I by the French, British and Russians; not the Americans.  Perhaps, in their eyes, the normal way of dealing with a defeated foe by the victors in that day of age.   The last vestiges of Colonialism.  

We have seen the Arms industries in both the Western and Soviet spheres of influence driving political scenes around the world, not just the Middle East.  Not all those "deals" have involved Muslims.  All have contributed to the instability we have seen.


----------



## Kirkhill

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> George, I was specifically talking about the American interventionist policies of the last 100 years. Not ancient history, but something worth noting is the wars every other group were launching during the same time period.
> 
> I was alluding to things like the sykes picot deal, the overthrow of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. So that is what I will touch on.
> 
> How the war on terror made the world unsafe;
> http://www.alternet.org/story/48620/the_war_on_terror_is_the_leading_cause_of_terrorism
> 
> The US/Western intervention;
> https://theintercept.com/2014/11/06/many-countries-islamic-world-u-s-bombed-occupied-since-1980/
> 
> http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/
> 
> Sykes picot agreement and its effects;
> http://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/How-Sykes-Picot-Is-the-Root-of-Syria-Iraq-Sectarian-Conflicts-20160513-0028.html
> 
> Now revisionist history to me is a pejorative term, but if you feel I am distorting facts do call me on it. I have really only studied Islamic warfare from the time of the prophet up until the last of the four rightly guided caliphs, the issue of who started these ancient wars are not that big to me and if your sources say it was only group 'a' or group 'b's fault then I would definetly double check.
> 
> But the effect I was mentioning starts around WW1 not Crusade #1. If you feel that Muslims started these modern wars and thus brought the sykes picot deal upon themselves and you don't realize the betrayals that happened regarding it then we can discuss. The reason I note Muslims starting the modern wars is because you note Muslims started the problems, for me to go all the way back to the beginning is far out of my depth... sorry.
> 
> But here is a link to the very beginning... it is a youtube series by a speaker I respect.
> 
> Mufti Menk - Life of Prophet Muhammad PBUH: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEe4sh5Y1RVOHOZHpRY6uCKcTeoYF_Gge
> 
> But do not think I do not accept Muslims or people claiming to be Muslims have done extremely bad things, because I do. I just do not think we are special in that regard.
> 
> Abdullah



We are not that far apart except on this:  You cannot look at proximate causes (like Sikes-Picot) without looking at distal causes as well.  Our distal causes were proximate to the people making decisions like the Sikes-Picot agreement.

There is a reason why the US Marines sing "to the shores of Tripoli" and the Brits sing "Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves, Britons never shall be slaves".  It is the same reason that Spain occupies Ceuta and the French occupied Algeria (and got trapped in Africa).  In each instance it is necessary to consider the impact of the Barbary Coast.  In Eastern Europe the issue was the Janissaries.

In all cases people professing adherence to the prophet found it acceptable to treat all others as sub-human.  

I can accept that the prophet did not call for that, any more than Christ did or any others of the great religious leaders.  But certainly, the perception created in the minds of those that had contact with the rulers of Istanbul, Tripoli, Algiers, Tunis, Rabat and Sallee was not favourable to the prophet or his adherents.

There are reasons, there are justifications for everything.  It is important to acknowledge the past and understand it.  It is also important that the only thing we can control is today, and to a significantly lesser extent, tomorrow.

Cheers.


----------



## jollyjacktar

As the old saying goes "it's not God that I have a problem with, it's his fan clubs".


----------



## mariomike

Remember "Clock Boy" from this time last year?

This is from last month,

‘Clock Boy’ Ahmed Mohamed Files Lawsuit Over Texas School Discrimination

Attorneys for Mohamed’s family sent a letter in February to the City of Irving and the Irving Independent School District, where they demanded $15 million in damages for how this entire situation was handled — both at the school and at the Irving Police Department headquarters.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/08/08/irving-clock-kid-set-to-file-federal-lawsuit/


----------



## AbdullahD

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> We are not that far apart except on this:  You cannot look at proximate causes (like Sikes-Picot) without looking at distal causes as well.  Our distal causes were proximate to the people making decisions like the Sikes-Picot agreement.
> 
> There is a reason why the US Marines sing "to the shores of Tripoli" and the Brits sing "Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves, Britons never shall be slaves".  It is the same reason that Spain occupies Ceuta and the French occupied Algeria (and got trapped in Africa).  In each instance it is necessary to consider the impact of the Barbary Coast.  In Eastern Europe the issue was the Janissaries.
> 
> In all cases people professing adherence to the prophet found it acceptable to treat all others as sub-human.
> 
> I can accept that the prophet did not call for that, any more than Christ did or any others of the great religious leaders.  But certainly, the perception created in the minds of those that had contact with the rulers of Istanbul, Tripoli, Algiers, Tunis, Rabat and Sallee was not favourable to the prophet or his adherents.
> 
> There are reasons, there are justifications for everything.  It is important to acknowledge the past and understand it.  It is also important that the only thing we can control is today, and to a significantly lesser extent, tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers.



Amen to that.

Perception is a very powerful tool, which ultimately dictates a lot in this world. I brought up these proximate causes, because I fancied them an important _part_ and in my view that is all they are.

It is kind of like a checklist almost for me why these things are happening;
•The interventionist policies
•The Saudi funding of Salafism
•The lack of stability in the mid east
•some youth lacking a reason to live
•luke warm policies of the world that entice youth to extremism
•Islamophobia 
•mental instability
•drug use current or prior
•family life
•etc etc etc

It is one of those things when I hear of terrorist attacks, I start seeing which things motivated the person if I am able to. Which to be honest is not very often. There are always underlying traits or symptoms of terrorists that seem to be fairly common, which seem to me to be able to be rectified and other symptoms or traits that are almost impossible to correct but are also common... like a fried brain from drugs or mental handicaps. When trying to be proactive to stop terrorist I'm a good little liberal, example being "if we just implement the right social programs, the problem will go away". But, after the fact... I tend to go straight right wing with the "hang them all" mentality. So maybe this influences my little checklist of "oh all these things created this monster and if we addressed these issues we would be fine"... but alas that is the thing with biases, you barely ever notice them when they are yours. (I still feel I am somewhat right though lol)

But it seems like we all agree that the issues I originally brought up do play a *part *how big of a part is not important to me as long as we agree they are a card that is in play. Now we just have to minimize the effect it has on potential extremists.

Muslims have largely been complacent in their beliefs for so long and did not bother to learn even the essentials, which makes it easier to corrupt the beliefs they hold and now we have major issues to deal with...I have spent a few hours trying to figure out how to say this better.. and this is all I got. A myriad of issues influences what happens in the world and trying to figure them all out is darn near impossible. The world is no longer simple, if it ever was. Islam's main goal is just to connect people with God and it is sad how perverted it is these days.

Abdullah

Ps their is nothing Islamic about "Islamic Terrorists"   :deadhorse:


----------



## Kirkhill

> The world is no longer simple, if it ever was.



It never was.  It is always the sum of individuals whose first and foremost obligation is to their personal offspring.  Everything else just has to be managed.

No matter how attractive that character on the white horse is - they will never come up with a plan that meets all needs, everywhere, all the time.

My Grandfather's line: we'll all go to hell our own way.  I'll drop you a line when I get there and let you know how I made out.


----------



## Kat Stevens

If I were God(s), I would turn on my trans lingual intercontinental public address system, and the message would go something like this;
My dearest children, I love you all equally, and it is my fondest wish that you all live together on the wonderful place I have provide for you in peace and tranquility.  To that end, the next one of you motherfuckers that so much as looks sideways at another of my children because you think it is my will, I will send a lightning bolt straight up your ass, as well as the ass of all your offspring, and will remove all your ancestors from the collective memory. Your line, along with your defective DNA will be purged.  This will not be a figurative lightning bolt in the form of some asshole wearing semtex underoos, this will be full on ten kajillion volts of divine fury.  Don't make me go all 40 days of rain on your asses.  That is all, have a nice day.  Oh, and leave the fucking whales alone, they've suffered enough"


----------



## AbdullahD

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> If I were God(s), I would turn on my trans lingual intercontinental public address system, and the message would go something like this;
> My dearest children, I love you all equally, and it is my fondest wish that you all live together on the wonderful place I have provide for you in peace and tranquility.  To that end, the next one of you motherfuckers that so much as looks sideways at another of my children because you think it is my will, I will send a lightning bolt straight up your ***, as well as the *** of all your offspring, and will remove all your ancestors from the collective memory. Your line, along with your defective DNA will be purged.  This will not be a figurative lightning bolt in the form of some ******* wearing semtex underoos, this will be full on ten kajillion volts of divine fury.  Don't make me go all 40 days of rain on your asses.  That is all, have a nice day.  Oh, and leave the ******* whales alone, they've suffered enough"



Aside from punishing innocents and that bit about the whales... I completely understand.

But uh why the whales?


----------



## Kat Stevens

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Aside from punishing innocents and that bit about the whales... I completely understand.
> 
> But uh why the whales?



for the first part, I find if I'm going to threaten someone, it's best to go all in, "I'll give one of your grandchildren a mild allergy to kitten dander"  wouldn't pack the same punch.  As for the whales, do you not agree they've had enough?  I mean, I know their sense of direction makes it pretty hard for them to face Mecca five times a day, and the ocean floor is a long way down to kneel on anyway, if they had knees at all, but why not leave them alone?  They don't eat bacon cheeseburgers or any of that other food that makes them worthy of death, as far as I know.


----------



## AbdullahD

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> for the first part, I find if I'm going to threaten someone, it's best to go all in, "I'll give one of your grandchildren a mild allergy to kitten dander"  wouldn't pack the same punch.  As for the whales, do you not agree they've had enough?  I mean, I know their sense of direction makes it pretty hard for them to face Mecca five times a day, and the ocean floor is a long way down to kneel on anyway, if they had knees at all, but why not leave them alone?  They don't eat bacon cheeseburgers or any of that other food that makes them worthy of death, as far as I know.



Hmm, you do have a good arguement here...

Off with their heads!

Now I'll go sign up with PETA  you will see me on the next whaling protest boat... guess i better go navy :S


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]
Off with their heads!


[/quote]
A little  _kill them wherever you find them_  with some   _strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them_   ;D


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> A little _kill them wherever you find them_ with some  _strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them_   ;D



Okay I set myself up there... lol

Ps i was thinking alice in Wonderland


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/18/us/minnesota-mall-stabbing/

One possible way to prevent backlash against the Muslim community would be if a Muslim decides they are going to go out and murder other people (like this asshole on the way to buy an Iphone7) they could do the community a solid and leave a note and say hey I have nothing to do with ISIS and I'm not killing people in the name of Allah, I'm just a murderer.


----------



## mariomike

Remember this story from Buffalo, N.Y.?

"A true American "moderate" Muslim beheads wife"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpMPz9JF5b8


----------



## George Wallace

On the other side of the coin, in France, there are Muslims like :


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Interview with Waleed Al-Husseini
> by Grégoire Canlorbe
> September 20, 2016 at 4:30 am
> https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8953/waleed-al-husseini-interview
> 
> 
> "The world is changing, and more and more Muslims wish to live without the oppressing "tutelage" of Islam." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> 
> "I find it difficult to speak of Muslim integration in France. In fact, except for a tiny minority, they are not really looking to integrate themselves." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> 
> "The only ones who create stigmatization are the Muslims themselves... I cannot see one scintilla of evidence of a plot against Islam." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> 
> "In addition, more and more Islamists refuse to integrate into a society that they deem godless and that they wish to convert." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> 
> "Unfortunately, with rare exceptions, Muslims discreetly approve or at least try to justify the attacks." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> 
> "According to their speeches, the Islamists indeed have set themselves the goal of conquering and ruling the entire world. If they manage to do it, they will owe their success not to their intellectual power or their faith, even less to their military force, but to their adversaries' cowardice." — Waleed Al-Husseini.
> =============================================================================
> 
> Waleed Al-Husseini is a Palestinian blogger and essayist, as well as the founder of the Ex-Muslim Council of France. He garnered international fame in 2010 when he was arrested by the Palestinian Authority, imprisoned and tortured for articles he posted, in which he criticized Islam. He has received threats and death threats. He is one of the most celebrated cyber-activists from the Arab world and now lives in France, where he sought refuge. He continues to be a defender of its secular, republican values.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: Could you start by reminding us of the circumstances and motives of your dissent?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: My atheism is the result of a long quest for the truth about what I saw happening in front of me. Obviously, nobody holds all of the truth, but during my research, I realized that religion in general, and Islam in particular, was highly incompatible with the values of human life. That was the beginning of my rejection of Islam. As time goes by, the horrors and crimes committed against mankind in the name of Islam seem to have proven me right. They have strengthened my conviction that it was the right choice to make.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: Despite being jailed, tortured, threatened, persecuted and socially pressured, you have never given up your opinions or curbed your determination to defend them. How come?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: Once I had made up my mind, I had to defend my new convictions against all sorts of pressures, whether in prison or in the street. To do so, I gathered my strength out of the weakness and archaism of the religious speech. I simply used intelligence against faith. The former opens the mind, the latter puts human beings in prison. It feels as if religious leaders practice some sort of psychological torture on their followers in order to dominate them. In Muslim societies, all the citizens live in a huge prison called Islam. I wish to remind the readers that, if I am deeply hostile to Islam as a religion, I respect Muslims as human beings and deplore the situation in which they have to survive.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: "Mahometism," writes Tocqueville in his Writings on the Koran, "is the religion that has mixed both political and religious powers, and in a way that the high priest is necessarily a prince, and the prince is the high priest, and all the acts of civil and political life are ruled more or less according to religious law... This concentration and confusion established by Mahomet between both powers... was the primary cause of despotism and social immobility... which has always been a characteristic of Muslim nations."
> 
> Do you think that things can change? Or that Islam — and the Islamic world — cannot be reformed?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: During the genesis of Islam — which looks in many aspects like a sect — the political power relied on religion in order to control and dominate society. Subject to certain exceptions, the situation has not changed in 1,400 years.
> 
> In his time, the prophet Mohammad had already made use and abuse of many fatwas, attributed to the angel Jibril, in order to justify what can never be justified. He awarded himself the right to rape young girls, in the name of polygamy, and used religious discourse to wage his wars, which he called "Islamic conquests." He also committed the first war crimes in the name of Allah — upon, he claimed, divine command!
> 
> The same methods are still common practice today, in the main Islamic countries. Iran is ruled by the Wali e-Faguih, the Supreme Leader, who claims he is "God's vicar on Earth". Saudi Arabia is under the rule of the "Keeper of the Holy Places". The king of Morocco is the self-proclaimed "Commander of the Believers". In the other Muslim countries, the rulers call themselves Wali al-Amr, "the tutor", a title that works as a deterrent, allowing imams to use religion in order to ban any possible objection to the tutor's authority.
> 
> The world is nevertheless changing and more and more Muslims wish to live without the oppressing "tutelage" of Islam. One can hope that the mentality of many will start to change for good, perhaps through the Internet and the social networks. They are the only space for free speech available to citizens; there is merciless opposition by the powerful against this "mass weapon." Faced with the horrors perpetrated in the name of Islam, more and more Muslims are turning their backs on this religion and are trying to release themselves from its yoke. It seems, unfortunately, there is still a long way to go.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: What is your opinion of the behavior and integration of Muslims in France? Is the Muslim community generally eager to proclaim and practice an open and enlightened Islam — even in spite of the alleged stigmatization and exclusion that are the daily lot of French Muslims according to the press?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: The only ones who create stigmatization are the Muslims themselves. This is a tested strategy which consists of turning oneself into a so-called "victim" in order to tighten the links within the Muslim community and to claim that it is being targeted because of its faith. They try to blame the fight on their identity.
> 
> Otherwise, how can we explain the absence of firm, frank, sincere and massive condemnations after the attacks perpetrated by a Muslim minority in the name of Islam? The Muslim masses seem to have difficulty distancing themselves from violent activists; they give the impression that their activists are defending the majority of Muslims against some sort of attack. But I cannot see one scintilla of evidence of a plot against Islam.
> 
> We must also stop confusing Arabs with Muslims. All Arabs are not Muslims, and not all Muslims are Arabs. Iranians, Egyptians and Turks, for example, are not Arabs. The Arabs, ethnically speaking, are a minority in Islam.
> 
> I find it difficult to speak of Muslim integration in France. In fact, except for a tiny minority, they are not really looking to integrate themselves. To Muslims, by definition, the Koran and Sharia (Islamic law) are superior to any law drafted by men. Islam claims to transcend borders and does not recognize nationalities. It is a view that partly fuels the radicals. Hence there is the difficulty for Muslims to speak about the wish for an open and tolerant Islam and to practice it. They are immediately accused of treason and apostasy.
> 
> As long as the founding texts of Islam are not reformed and rewritten in a sound way, that allows Islam to acquire an enlightened ecclesiastical authority at its head, integration seems unreachable. In addition, more and more Islamists refuse to integrate into a society that they deem godless and that they wish to convert.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: It is sometimes argued that Wahhabism, the doctrine that historically inspires the terrorists who claim to belong to Islam, is a form of heresy and not a return to the "basics" and the literal meaning of Islam. In other words, there is nothing traditional or fundamentalist in the doctrine of Wahhabism, which appeared belatedly in the 18th century, professed by Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and denounced by his own brother Sulayman ibn Abd al-Wahhab and other respected ulemas — religious scholars — within the Hanbali School, the most austere of the four Islamic law schools. How would you sum up the defects and merits of the Islamophile argument?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: It is true that the "drifts" of Mohammad Ibn Abdel Wahhab were vividly denounced by his brother. It is also true that the Wahhabi doctrine served as a social and religious basis for the al-Saud family to establish its power in Arabia — a typical example of the connection between religion and politics. But it is not the only instance in that field.
> 
> In the 20th century, Hassan al-Banna, founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, was also taken to task by his own brother over the sectarian and violent drifts of his writings. More recently, the grandson of Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, denounced the policy of the Supreme Leader, who has been using religious power to strengthen his political and economic influence on Iran. But these dissenting robins do not necessarily indicate the arrival of spring. For Islam, regardless of all its stripes — whether it is Wahhabi, Salafist, Muslim Brotherhood or Iranian Shi'ite — feeds on the same source, the Koran.
> 
> Today, Muslims apply the same methods that prevailed in the time of the Prophet. The barbaric acts perpetrated by ISIS, al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Iran, Saudi Arabia and many other Muslim countries that behead and violate human rights, had already occurred during the Islamization of the Arabian Peninsula and the Islamic conquests.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Napoleon and Adolf Hitler all tried to conquer the world. They all failed. An illiterate prophet from the desert also tried to achieve what Alexander and his successors dreamed of. How do you assess the spread of Islam? Do you think Islamists could finally achieve Mohammad's world domination scheme — and subject the West?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: According to their speeches, the Islamists indeed have set themselves the goal of conquering and ruling the entire world. If they manage to do it, they will not owe their success to their intellectual power or their faith, even less to their military force, but to their adversaries' cowardice.
> 
> Except for Iran, Islamic countries or organizations produce no weapons, no culture, no food and no civilization. Without the West's contribution, they would starve. Please let me remind you that the Western companies discovered and exploited the oil that enabled these countries to develop.
> 
> The idea that the influence of Islam would go beyond the borders of the ancient Empires does not seem an appropriate comparison.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: After the attacks in Paris on the magazine Charlie Hebdo and the Bataclan Theater in 2015, a lot of Muslims around the world raised their voices to exonerate Islam from any ideological responsibility and to blame the massacres on a so-called "judaeo-masonic conspiracy," the aim of which was supposedly to discredit Islam.
> 
> Two psychological options seem possible. Either these individuals, deep down in, condemn the attacks but turn a blind eye to the responsibility of Islamic ideology because they cannot bear thinking that the terrorists are also Muslims. Or they approve of those attacks, at least unconsciously, and actually desire to see Islam conquer the West and sap Christianity of its power — a wish they cannot openly declare in public.
> 
> Of these two options, which one is the most plausible or widespread in your view?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: Unfortunately, with rare exceptions, Muslims discreetly approve or at least try to justify the attacks. The adherence of Muslims to Islam prevails over their adherence to a nation or a country. It is inconceivable at this stage that Islam will side against those who strictly apply its teachings. However, some leaders brilliantly handled taqiyya, or "dissimulation": they verbally condemned the attacks while refraining from castigating Islamic ideology.
> 
> Regarding conspiracy theories, they are denied by the Islamists themselves who keep on promoting terrorist attacks and promising more. The attack against Charlie Hebdo was first established by an Iranian fatwa issued in 2006 against a Danish cartoonist and his magazine — accusing him of insulting the Prophet — as well as against any media, including Charlie, that dared to publish the cartoons.
> 
> Terrorists are also indoctrinated in mosques, then enroll in terrorist groups where they can put what they were taught into practice.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: It is now fashionable among intellectuals sensationalized by universities and the media, such as Tariq Ramadan and Michel Onfray, to acknowledge a positive side to the ideology embraced by terrorists. They imply that "radical Islam", apparently a code name for Islam itself, promotes a warlike ideal of self-sacrifice and heroism which, since the advent of capitalism and the consumer society, has deserted our Western way of life. They also imply that Islam, which prohibits wine, gambling activities and statues, constitutes a remedy for the "decadent" permissiveness of Western societies.
> 
> What would you reply to this fashionable speech?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: Tariq Ramadan, who is the grandson of Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, delivers a public speech which pretends to be peaceful, but which is totally contrary to the content of the conferences he discreetly held in the suburban areas, notably after the 9/11 attacks. There, he exhorted young girls to wear the veil, vigorously criticized the laws of the French Republic that were against ostensible signs of religion in public areas, and he raised the issue of a supposed American-Zionist plot against Islam. I have not seen one scintilla of evidence of that, either.
> 
> It is worth here reminding everyone that the strategy of the Muslim Brotherhood, tested in Egypt, consisted in surfing on the wave of extremism among terrorists, systemically defended by lawyers paid by the Brotherhood, in order to gain notoriety and go ahead with its political agenda. Egyptians have been suffering from this complicity ever since. French Islamists and their spokesmen seem to be tempted by the same scenario: paying lip services by condemning barbaric acts while defending terrorists in a hidden manner and continuing on their path.
> 
> Finally, I do not understand why the Islamists, who seek asylum in the West in order to benefit from its wealth as well as freedom of religion and speech, want to impose the Islam they ran away from. If the decadence and materialism of the West do not suit them, they would do better to go back home. Those who stay should comply with the laws of the Western country they chose, and respect them.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: In addressing Muslims, if you had to recall only one argument in favor of pluralistic mores and beliefs, individual freedom and the prohibition of "any interference by any family, parental or official public authorities in the private lives of men and women", what would it be?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: I kindly invite them to embrace democracy which guarantees freedom in all its forms, and which necessarily goes along with secularism: it leaves religion to religious followers, politics to politicians, justice to judges. This separation between secular and religious affairs on the one hand, and between legislative, executive, judicial powers on the other, is the best driver of creative and economic development and consequently the best driver of human development.
> 
> *Grégoire Canlorbe*: Thank you for your time. Would you like to add a few words?
> 
> *Waleed Al-Husseini*: I would just like to say to Muslims that Islam is not an accident of fate. Since they did not choose it when they were born, they can leave it at any time. But although many of them have made the leap, they are not always ready to claim it openly. Professed apostates are indeed persecuted in traditional Muslim societies. Some, like me, get arrested. Others get killed. That's the situation prevailing in Muslim countries. Meanwhile, in Western countries, apostates are regularly reproached for supposedly being "racist" or "Islamophobic." We should get support, not be ostracized. We know what Islam really is. If you want to be informed on Islam, you should listen to ex-Muslims, not to any type of Muslim. We should get more support to share our view and our experience in the public debate and to fight against terrorism and fundamentalism. Thank you for your good questions.
> 
> Waleed Al-Husseini is the author of an autobiography, Blasphemer! Allah's prisons! edited by Graset in 2014 (re-issued in 2015), as well as articles in Le Monde, La Règle du jeu and Libération. His blogs are "la voie de la raison" and "I'm proud to be atheist".
> 
> Grégoire Canlorbe, a journalist, currently lives in Paris.
> 
> Initially published in French in slightly different form on the website of the Institut Coppet.




More on LINK.


----------



## George Wallace

Sad to see this happen in Jordan, the only Islamic nation in the Middle East that I thought of as being relatively free from fanatical elements.  

This cartoon has resulted in a prominent Jordanian writer being murdered on the steps of the Courthouse:







Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Gunman Kills Jordanian Writer Nahed Hattar Before Trial Over Cartoon
> The journalist was about to enter court for a trial on a caricature that was deemed blasphemous by authorities.
> Jack Khoury and Reuters Sep 25, 2016 12:24 PM
> 
> REUTERS - A gunman shot dead Jordanian writer Nahed Hattar on Sunday outside the court where he was to stand trial on charges of contempt of religion after sharing on social media a caricature seen as insulting Islam, state news agency Petra said.
> 
> Hattar, a Christian and an anti-Islamist activist, was a prominent writer in Jordan. He was well-known for his opposition to the government – and its peace agreement with Israel – and to political and radical Islamist organizations. He was arrested a number of times in the 1990s, and survived an assassination attempt in 1998.
> 
> The Jordanian government banned Hattar from writing for the Jordanian press, and in recent years he wrote for the Lebanese, Hezbollah-affiliated Al-Akhbar newspaper. He was considered a staunch supporter of Syrian President Bashar Assad, and was invited to Damascus meeting with the president three years ago.
> 
> Hattar's assassination could be linked to recent articles in which he mocked Islamic State. His death has caused a social media storm, and raised concern that those who oppose the same organizations as Hattar may be harmed as well.
> 
> Haatar was arrested last month after he shared a caricature that depicted a bearded man in heaven smoking in bed with women and asking God to bring him wine and cashews.
> 
> Many conservative Muslim Jordanians considered Hattar's move offensive and against their religion. The authorities said he violated the law by sharing the caricature.
> 
> The state news agency quoted a security source as saying Hattar was killed by a man who fired three shots at him on the steps of the palace of justice in the Jordanian capital.
> 
> "The assailant was arrested and investigations are ongoing," Petra quoted the security source as saying.
> 
> Two witnesses said the gunman, bearded and in his '50s, was wearing a traditional Arab dishashada, worn by ultra conservative Sunni Salafis who adhere to a puritanical version of Islam and shun Western lifestyles.
> 
> Hattar had apologized and said he did not mean to insult God but had shared the cartoon to mock fundamentalist Sunni radicals and what he said was their vision of God and heaven. He had accused his Islamist opponents of using the cartoon to settle scores with him.




More on LINK.


----------



## Kirkhill

A new tactic in the anti-burkini wars?

"Paris on course to open its first nudist park"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/26/paris-set-to-get-its-first-nudist-park/

I may have to head to Paris and check this out.   Just to get a proper sense of how this plays out, you know.  Purely from an anthropological perspective.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Full story at link below.



> Syrian migrant helps capture ISIS terrorist who tortured him in his home country after spotting the Islamist in GERMANY
> - Masoud Aqil, 23, was held captive by ISIS psychopaths for 280 days
> - Now safe in Germany he helps intelligence officials track down terrorists
> - He has so far identified 30 potential suspects to German authorities
> 
> 'Germany made a mistake by letting all of these people in,' said Mr Aqil. 'Now, the terrorists are here.
> 
> 'I had to do something to protect Germany,' Mr Aqil said.
> 
> Now, Mr Aqil is working on a number of different cases for two German investigative agencies. He has already been able to deliver the names and locations of several suspects from his time as a prisoner.
> 
> 'The investigators hold him in high regard,' said Spiegel.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3826991/Syrian-migrant-helps-capture-ISIS-terrorist-tortured-home-country-spotting-Islamist-GERMANY.html#ixzz4MPKl1peJ
> Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Isn't talking of "ISIS psychopaths" redundant ... As being a psychopath is implied in the word ISIS.


----------



## George Wallace

An interesting perspective presented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, of Harvard University:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AkAGc5nOXw


----------



## Jed

George Wallace said:
			
		

> An interesting perspective presented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, of Harvard University:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AkAGc5nOXw



That woman shows a lot of guts. She deserves all the support she can get.


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Full story at link below.



BZ to him if he's right, but there have been problems, in various parts of the world, with 'honest brokers' pointing out other people to be arrested by the police.


----------



## AbdullahD

George Wallace said:
			
		

> An interesting perspective presented by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, of Harvard University:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AkAGc5nOXw



I really can not bring myself to like this lady. The premise she uses to assert Islam is inherently evil, if used on all other religions would create the same result, that they are all evil.

She also confuses culture and religion, which sad to say almost everyone does, Muslim and non-Muslim. Also her ideas of a "reformation" in Islam, would pretty much make all Muslims, non-Muslim and she does not realize that other religions stress the same ideals Islam does or she ignores the fact a religion can stress those ideals and not be violent... like most Muslims already do.

She seems to be of a mind that inherently all Muslim Scholars teach bigotry and intolerance which is not the case, it is only the extremists that do. She also refuses to allow for other factors in the global terrorism realm, she also refuses to acknowledge how small the percentage of terrorists are. Now due to technological advances just a couple terrorists can do a lot of damage yes, but because a small percent of Muslims do a lot of damage does not make the majority terrorists or the religion sympathetic to it.

Islamic teachings are quite similar to orthodox/catholic teachings or orthodox jewish teachings etc. So if Islam is evil, then they all are too. Also Islam is not against the west, that narrative has just been pushed by the extremes in certain groups.. like daesh and the right wing etc many Muslims think that the west and Islam can be reconciled, hell I have already done it fine.

Abdullah


----------



## daftandbarmy

For all the troubles that are fermenting there, the introduction of Islam over the centuries is widely recognized as one of the main reasons why northern Africa is generally better off than sub-Saharan Africa, largely due to its generally inclusive and peaceful approach.


----------



## mariomike

Pentagon confronts a new threat from ISIS: exploding drones. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/12/world/middleeast/iraq-drones-isis.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
Heading to a city near you.

Forget guns and bombs, ISIS says just attack random people with knives.
http://abc7chicago.com/news/isis-propaganda-urges-terrorists-to-stage-knife-attacks/1548969/


----------



## Edward Campbell

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I really can not bring myself to like this lady. The premise she uses to assert Islam is inherently evil, if used on all other religions would create the same result, that they are all evil.
> 
> She also confuses culture and religion, which sad to say almost everyone does, Muslim and non-Muslim. Also her ideas of a "reformation" in Islam, would pretty much make all Muslims, non-Muslim and she does not realize that other religions stress the same ideals Islam does or she ignores the fact a religion can stress those ideals and not be violent... like most Muslims already do.
> 
> She seems to be of a mind that inherently all Muslim Scholars teach bigotry and intolerance which is not the case, it is only the extremists that do. She also refuses to allow for other factors in the global terrorism realm, she also refuses to acknowledge how small the percentage of terrorists are. Now due to technological advances just a couple terrorists can do a lot of damage yes, but because a small percent of Muslims do a lot of damage does not make the majority terrorists or the religion sympathetic to it.
> 
> Islamic teachings are quite similar to orthodox/catholic teachings or orthodox jewish teachings etc. So if Islam is evil, then they all are too. Also Islam is not against the west, that narrative has just been pushed by the extremes in certain groups.. like daesh and the right wing etc many Muslims think that the west and Islam can be reconciled, hell I have already done it fine.
> 
> Abdullah




You've hit one of the nails squarely on the head. Many cultures are retarded, medieval, misogynistic things and they need reformation and enlightenment, from within, or they need to be, forcibly, tossed upon history's dung heap.

Culture and religion are intertwined, often closely, but they are not one and same. Some religions try to be all things to all people ... many peoples in many cultures (civilizations if you want to use Sam Huntington's notions) have rejected that and have decided, despite the protestations of religious leaders that church and state must be separated. I am content that some people _believe_ otherwise but _*I believe*_ that any attempt to bring religion and government together must be resisted with force and even violence.

I don't know enough about any religion to pronounce any of them evil ... or good, for that matter; although the Taoists seem far, far less harmful than most.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Religion is birthed by culture; and cultures adapt religions, they do not simply adopt them.

Most of the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a culture will eventually end up in its primary religion(s).  If a religion is created or adapted as a political tool to impose unification on disparate peoples, it will tend to be violent and tyrannical.


----------



## Nikola Canada

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I really can not bring myself to like this lady. The premise she uses to assert Islam is inherently evil, if used on all other religions would create the same result, that they are all evil.



Yeah, because Buddhism is all about violence and child marriage... 



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> She also confuses culture and religion, which sad to say almost everyone does, Muslim and non-Muslim.



Well I'm glad you are such an expert on the topic, one who knows something the majority of muslims don't even know! I guess they are all just ignorant of your true understanding of their religion. 



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Also her ideas of a "reformation" in Islam, would pretty much make all Muslims, non-Muslim



From what I can tell, her main reformational focus is against "theologically sanctioned violence" for offenses such as homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, as well as the scriptural justification for what we call terrorist attacks. If removing these things from Islam would make all muslims "non-muslim" in your opinion, that really speaks volumes. 



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> and she does not realize that other religions stress the same ideals Islam does or she ignores the fact a religion can stress those ideals and not be violent... like most Muslims already do.
> 
> She seems to be of a mind that inherently all Muslim Scholars teach bigotry and intolerance which is not the case, it is only the extremists that do. She also refuses to allow for other factors in the global terrorism realm, she also refuses to acknowledge how small the percentage of terrorists are. Now due to technological advances just a couple terrorists can do a lot of damage yes, but because a small percent of Muslims do a lot of damage does not make the majority terrorists or the religion sympathetic to it.



She clearly names Muslim scholars who are trying to reform Islam from within, and also clearly states that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. She just rightly points out that the theological basis for the "fundamentalists" are very much justified by the foundational materials of Islam (ie the Quran and the Hadith). 



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Islamic teachings are quite similar to orthodox/catholic teachings or orthodox jewish teachings etc. So if Islam is evil, then they all are too.



Yes, and so if they are all evil does that make it ok? Basic logical fallacy. Saying that many of the bad things within islam are also within Christianity or Judaism doesn't justify the fact that Islam sanctions bad things. In fact that's a given, since they are all Abrahamic religions and basically the same in essence.



			
				AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Also Islam is not against the west, that narrative has just been pushed by the extremes in certain groups.. like daesh and the right wing etc many Muslims think that the west and Islam can be reconciled, hell I have already done it fine.
> 
> Abdullah



Based on your posts, I sincerely question the validity of your self-declared reconciliation. From what I recall, you're an ex-baptist who converted to Islam and you live in BC, Kamloops to be specific. Aren't there only like a few hundred Muslims there? I think there are about 80-90 thousand Muslims in all of BC. I highly doubt you have the authority to speak about a proper interpretation of Islam. 

But who am I? Just a kid born and raised in the heart of Toronto (where there are over 425,000 Muslims), grew up in a very Muslim area (and I mean like hundreds of people walking around in niqab and thawb to and from giant mosques), went to school with mostly Muslims all my life, had many as friends and from all over the world too (mostly Pakistan, India, Somalia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Iraq). Met and befriended tons of Muslims at the University of Toronto (also from all over the Muslim world, this time from UAE, Saudi, Oman, Yemen, and Jordan). I even converted at one point myself (long story). I got a Muslim name (Abdurrahman, basically the same name you got), prayed 5 times a day, studied classical and modern standard Arabic, all that jazz. But you know what, the deeper I got into it the more I realized I made a mistake. I started to realize that many of the Muslim kids I met at UofT didn't want to go back to their countries, fearing they would be killed for the things they did in university. I realized how many of them literally feared for their lives over things like being gay, doing drugs, making fun of Islamic topics such as the history of the texts and the prophet. There were many things like that which pushed me away, but the main one was the realization that so many Islamic countries banned age of consent laws as "un-Islamic" because in Islam the age of consent is when a girl hits puberty (ie when she has her period, ie between the ages of 8-15. Some scholars even say that the first sign of puberty is when the breasts develop, which is often 2 years before a girl has her period). That was the final straw for me, and I've completely done a 180 on the topic of Islam since then.

I sincerely hope you do the same, and until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical.


----------



## Journeyman

Nikola Canada said:
			
		

> ..... until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical.


Given your newfound hatred of all things Muslim, I suspect that you may have some difficulties with some expectations that are highly regarded in the Canadian military, those being tolerance and respect.  As it is, you will have wasted a number of people's time -- recruiters, instructors, your unit's staff -- once you are identified as an administrative burden, and go through the process of kicking you out.

As such, I hope you experience an equally long recruiting process, possibly allowing you to mature enough to avoid wasting the valuable time of these military personnel.


----------



## AbdullahD

Nikola Canada said:
			
		

> Yeah, because Buddhism is all about violence and child marriage...



There are Budhists out there who advocate for those things, so using her premise and your qualifiers.. they are too. But, I do not personally believe that. Just because some people in a religion advocate for certain things within that religion, does not, in any way, mean that is what that religion is about.



> Well I'm glad you are such an expert on the topic, one who knows something the majority of muslims don't even know! I guess they are all just ignorant of your true understanding of their religion.



 Where did I ever claim to be an expert? I am not one, but I am friends or on friendly terms with 20+ different Muslim scholars, who I argue are experts. I have the ability to contact scholars on multiple continents and many more countries, if I need to, to double check my information. 



> From what I can tell, her main reformational focus is against "theologically sanctioned violence" for offenses such as homosexuality, adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, as well as the scriptural justification for what we call terrorist attacks. If removing these things from Islam would make all muslims "non-muslim" in your opinion, that really speaks volumes.



In Islam, there are certain things that you have to believe in to be considered Muslim. I do believe in another post on this site I have an expanded opinion on this particular point, I suggest you go read it.



> She clearly names Muslim scholars who are trying to reform Islam from within, and also clearly states that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. She just rightly points out that the theological basis for the "fundamentalists" are very much justified by the foundational materials of Islam (ie the Quran and the Hadith).



See my other posts on her, she is using verses out of context and some  hadiths that I believe do not even exist to make her arguement. So yea if you only use one sentence of a paragraph or half a sentence, or one paragraph from a page etc, it becomes very easy to twist things. But, that does not make it right.



> Yes, and so if they are all evil does that make it ok? Basic logical fallacy. Saying that many of the bad things within islam are also within Christianity or Judaism doesn't justify the fact that Islam sanctions bad things. In fact that's a given, since they are all Abrahamic religions and basically the same in essence.



 I do believe I have never said that 'bad' things exist in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I believe you are arguing that, I am arguing that her using isolated verses and hadiths out of context etc etc can make anything look bad, but that does not make it bad.



> Based on your posts, I sincerely question the validity of your self-declared reconciliation.



Okay that is fine, but Shayk Omar Subedar, Mufti Abu Layth, Mufti Aasim Rashid, Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Shayk Atabek Shukrov, Shayk AbdurRaheem, Shayk Yasir Qadhi etc etc all hold the same view that it can be reconciled. So I hardly think they are wrong.



> From what I recall, you're an ex-baptist who converted to Islam and you live in BC, Kamloops to be specific. Aren't there only like a few hundred Muslims there?



600 or so counting the students. Not entirely sure the exact number



> I think there are about 80-90 thousand Muslims in all of BC. I highly doubt you have the authority to speak about a proper interpretation of Islam.



I do not and neither do you.



> But who am I? Just a kid born and raised in the heart of Toronto (where there are over 425,000 Muslims), grew up in a very Muslim area (and I mean like hundreds of people walking around in niqab and thawb to and from giant mosques), went to school with mostly Muslims all my life, had many as friends and from all over the world too (mostly Pakistan, India, Somalia, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, and Iraq). Met and befriended tons of Muslims at the University of Toronto (also from all over the Muslim world, this time from UAE, Saudi, Oman, Yemen, and Jordan).



Cool. I have friends from all those areas too and more, what is the point?

I have traveled 11 American states and 3 Provinces just to talk to and meet Muslims. I did give some speeches, host dinners etc. It was in the form of Tablighi Jamat, I have posted about them before here I think.. if I haven't I can make a post about it.



> I even converted at one point myself (long story). I got a Muslim name (Abdurrahman, basically the same name you got), prayed 5 times a day, studied classical and modern standard Arabic,



Cool, which style of Arabic did you study for the classical stuff? Which style of prayer did you learn?



> all that jazz. But you know what, the deeper I got into it the more I realized I made a mistake.



Interesting, what Islamic texts did you study to create this opinion?



> I started to realize that many of the Muslim kids I met at UofT didn't want to go back to their countries, fearing they would be killed for the things they did in university. I realized how many of them literally feared for their lives over things like being gay, doing drugs, making fun of Islamic topics such as the history of the texts and the prophet.



I think I have covered this already.. can you please go back an read it. Either in this thread or the other  Islam thread. If not look up Shayk Atabek Shukrovs position on these things. He explains the position on many things from the time of the Prophet up until now in deep detail and explains the different perversions sometimes.



> There were many things like that which pushed me away, but the main one was the realization that so many Islamic countries banned age of consent laws as "un-Islamic" because in Islam the age of consent is when a girl hits puberty (ie when she has her period, ie between the ages of 8-15. Some scholars even say that the first sign of puberty is when the breasts develop, which is often 2 years before a girl has her period). That was the final straw for me, and I've completely done a 180 on the topic of Islam since then.



So since you were able to allegedly find a couple nut job scholars, who are claiming some thing or another it means the whole religion is flawed? That is an extremely low burden of proof to hate an entire religion with.



> I sincerely hope you do the same, and until then, I hope you're waiting a LOONG time for that medical.



So Muslims have no place.. in your version of the Canadian Armed Forces? Mind explaining yourself, I almost did not reply at all due to your tone and this comment. I am Muslim and I fully intend on joining the armed forces in Canada, I will gladly do what is asked to keep Canada free and all people welcome and respected here.

Sorry if this is not coherent, I am busy. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you are having a rough day. Grab a coffee and get back to me mate.

Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

Just a list of Muslims speaking out or condemning Terrorism or bigoted acts... it is relativetly thorough  it is a few pages, just warning.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e8BjMW36CMNc4-qc9UNQku0blstZSzp5FMtkdlavqzc/edit#gid=0


----------



## AbdullahD

I could have sworn I saw a post something about terrorism hoaxes, or some such thing and it stayed in my mind and then I saw this.

http://onepathnetwork.com/fake-imams-play-muslim-leaders-stir-hatred-fear/

Seems like if the terrorists wanted to alienate Muslims, playing both sides would work very effectively. Sadly I do not have contacts or enough contacts to southern Australia to confirm this article. But it looks legitimate enough.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

Abdullah what do you think about placing Cameras inside mosques and other places of worship? Or not allowing children under the age of 18 to attend places of worship?

Also what do you think of the state Sweden is in at the moment? Over exaggerated or an actual issue?


----------



## George Wallace

For some of the Cold War Warriors here, this may hit close to home:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> World News | Sun Mar 12, 2017 | 10:29am EDT
> German police end operation over attack threat in southwest town
> REUTERS
> 
> German police said on Sunday they were questioning a man in his early 20s who was detained after an overnight operation in the southwestern town of Offenburg following a security threat.
> 
> Germany is on high alert following deadly militant attacks in France and Belgium and after a failed asylum seeker from Tunisia drove a truck into a Berlin Christmas market in December, killing 12 people. Islamic State claimed responsibility for that attack.
> 
> Police said they believed one target of a potential attack was a night club. They added that no weapons were found during the operation and a second man who was arrested was later released.
> 
> Federal and local police officers stepped up security in Offenburg's town centre and on public transport.
> 
> Offenburg lies in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg close to the French border. French police were involved in the operation.
> 
> Separately, on Saturday, police in the city of Essen closed a shopping mall after security agencies warned of a possible attack.
> 
> Security sources said that threat appeared to follow a call for violence by a German militant loyal to Islamic State who is currently based in a region of Syria controlled by the militant group.
> 
> Police questioned two men in connection with the Essen threat.
> 
> (Writing by Madeline Chambers; Editing by Mark Potter)




More on LINK

Strasbourg is just across the Rhine, and the French military have had armed military patrols in the streets for the past couple years.  Yes, the French have "armed soldiers in the streets".  Whether other EU nations take up this SOP could be a good question.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Abdullah what do you think about placing Cameras inside mosques and other places of worship?[/quote)
> 
> I think it is a bad idea and will only divide this beautiful country even more. My opinion is formed on what happened to Muslims and Mosques in New York after 9-11.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or not allowing children under the age of 18 to attend places of worship?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is another bad idea, but if a person wants to explore that avenue.. then we must also explore the avenue of not letting kids see guns before 18, or hunt, or play violent games, or movies, or any idea or thought that violates our own ideas or thoughts.
> 
> I in no way think places of worship are the problem in any way, period. Just because one or two nut cases managed to get to the podium, does not make a systematic? Problem. I think thats the right word lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also what do you think of the state Sweden is in at the moment? Over exaggerated or an actual issue?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have no real opinion, I simply do not know enough to have formed one. I have seen compelling arguements saying the problem is exaggerated. But until you go there or have someone you trust 100% in the real world go there.. you can never be sure.
> 
> I think a lot of money is being spent on the Islam topic right now and it is all overblown.
> 
> Just my opinion
> Abdullah
Click to expand...


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]
I think it is a bad idea and will only divide this beautiful country even more. My opinion is formed on what happened to Muslims and Mosques in New York after 9-11.[/quote]

Why is it a bad idea?  Surely you see what kind of hate speech and radicalization happens inside places of worship under the guise of religion (or through it).  Or the abuse of children by clergy members in positions of power?  Wouldn't this be a good way to calm fears of radicalization or even serve as an early warning for it?  Maybe it could be a requirement en order for a church to gain tax-free status.



> I think that is another bad idea, but if a person wants to explore that avenue.. then we must also explore the avenue of not letting kids see guns before 18, or hunt, or play violent games, or movies, or any idea or thought that violates our own ideas or thoughts.



I disagree for a few reasons. If a child picked up a gun and the gun told them gays should go to hell, women are below men and jews should be murdered then I would agree. Guns are inanimate objects. Someone in a position of power pushing views on impressionable youth are not.

As for _seeing _guns in action in the context of violence, movies have a maturity rating. People generally ignore it but it's still there. You can't take a 7 year old into John Wick 2 for example.  Some of the more violent video games as well have maturity ratings and some cannot be sold to children under 18.
I wouldn't let my children watch movies with extreme amounts of violence or play games like grand theft auto.



> I in no way think places of worship are the problem in any way, period. Just because one or two nut cases managed to get to the podium, does not make a systematic? Problem.


I think you're 100% wrong with your observation that it's one or two nutcases.  The Mosque in Toronto that was featured in the recent M103 protest/counter-protest is an excellent example. Talking about filthy jews and murdering them. Or Steven Anderson, pastor in AZ talking about murdering gays.  Hop on youtube and you can find dozens of videos in seconds of places of worship preaching hate.  

Children aren't born religious, it's a learned behavior and belief.  Maybe the place of worship itself isn't the problem but what gets said inside can be (and is, IMO). 



> I think a lot of money is being spent on the Islam topic right now and it is all overblown.



Nice France or the 2015 Paris attacks are not cause for concern?


----------



## Loachman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For some of the Cold War Warriors here, this may hit close to home:



I was the first CF Member to live in Offenburg.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Loachman said:
			
		

> I was the first CF Member to live in Offenburg.



Have they forgiven you yet?


----------



## Loachman

I contributed significantly to the town's income - they didn't mind me too much.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Why is it a bad idea?  Surely you see what kind of hate speech and radicalization happens inside places of worship under the guise of religion (or through it).  Or the abuse of children by clergy members in positions of power?  Wouldn't this be a good way to calm fears of radicalization or even serve as an early warning for it?  Maybe it could be a requirement en order for a church to gain tax-free status.
> 
> I disagree for a few reasons. If a child picked up a gun and the gun told them gays should go to hell, women are below men and jews should be murdered then I would agree. Guns are inanimate objects. Someone in a position of power pushing views on impressionable youth are not.
> 
> As for _seeing _guns in action in the context of violence, movies have a maturity rating. People generally ignore it but it's still there. You can't take a 7 year old into John Wick 2 for example.  Some of the more violent video games as well have maturity ratings and some cannot be sold to children under 18.
> I wouldn't let my children watch movies with extreme amounts of violence or play games like grand theft auto.
> I think you're 100% wrong with your observation that it's one or two nutcases.  The Mosque in Toronto that was featured in the recent M103 protest/counter-protest is an excellent example. Talking about filthy jews and murdering them. Or Steven Anderson, pastor in AZ talking about murdering gays.  Hop on youtube and you can find dozens of videos in seconds of places of worship preaching hate.
> 
> Children aren't born religious, it's a learned behavior and belief.  Maybe the place of worship itself isn't the problem but what gets said inside can be (and is, IMO).
> 
> Nice France or the 2015 Paris attacks are not cause for concern?



Jarnhamar these are our old talking points neither of us are able to meet common ground, but before you decide to tell someone places of worship are evil or bad. You best visit a bunch  I've been to more Mosques in more states and provinces in north America, doing work with the Islamic community, then I care to count.

But I still feel I am right and your wrong, but I do not feel any need to continue to address things I feel I have covered. My position on most of these things is known here so I feel no need to keep beating the drum. Yes I used guns as an example, because it is a freedom we have in Canada and if someone thinks it is ok to take away one freedom because of his biases, then we might as well take them all.

If you brought up something I have not addressed, I will address it. But I do not wish to fight.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Jarnhamar these are our old talking points neither of us are able to meet common ground, but before you decide to tell someone places of worship are evil or bad. You best visit a bunch  I've been to more Mosques in more states and provinces in north America, doing work with the Islamic community, then I care to count.


I'm roman catholic and spent time in a catholic school before switching over to public school. I also still visit churches with religious friends of mine and enjoy the ambiance (when it's the peace and love kind). I'd say a sweat lodge I visited was the most enjoyable however.



> But I still feel I am right and your wrong, but I do not feel any need to continue to address things I feel I have covered.



I'll be honest here (and hopefully respectful)  I think you're taking the easy way out by not answering my questions. We haven't as of yet discussed children or cameras in places of worship as a topic as far as I am aware. I feel like the hate speech inside said places is rather untouched territory too.  I'm sure you wouldn't object to cameras inside day cares would you?   



> Yes I used guns as an example, because it is a freedom we have in Canada and if someone thinks it is ok to take away one freedom because of his biases, then we might as well take them all.


Firearm ownership in Canada is not a right nor are they protected by something like the 2nd amendment that the US has. It's a strictly controlled privilege here.  Lots of shooting ranges in North America have cameras; it's a way to prevent people from behaving in a way contrary to the law, among other things.



> If you brought up something I have not addressed, I will address it. But I do not wish to fight.
> Abdullah


No fighting here.
I think as a convert to Islam you bring an interesting position to the debate table. Thanks.


----------



## AbdullahD

I would very strongly object to cameras inside of daycares and my children attend a daycare as well.. not to mention my Mom runs one 

We may not have specifically covered it and yes, it could be the easy way out. But let's face it, you know I am going to take the position that only a very minute minority of Muslims or so called Muslims follow these radical ideas, so it does not legitimize watching all Muslims. I personally know of a white christian guy who said he would kill any black guy who dated his daughter, so does that mean we should put cameras in all homes of religious people as well? Because if that problem is the place of worship, then those who attend those places must be a problem to.. right? Were does it end, how much liberty are we Canadians willing to give up to protect us from the remote chance the idiotic minority may do something?

I for one, would prefer liberty and freedom and all the risks that come with that. Then to live in a tightly controlled society were everything is monitored. 

I am sure a lot of those cameras were installed to protect against thieves and vandalism and a lot of Mosques already have cameras for this reason too. Just imagine how the gun community would react, if we put independent cameras in a gun range to 'monitor' what happened there. Cause you know, things get said there. 

Sorry, I just want to live a free life. Terrorism is not a real threat to people in north america, you a more likely to die in a car accident or many other ways then in a religious terrorist act.. so yea, feel free to worry about it. But the minority of people, who may never put risk to my family, who i may not be able to stop even if i spent billions of dollars.. i wont worry about. Ill worry about things i can control. And speeches made by one person in one mosque half ways across canada are not under my control.

Abdullah

Ps Also i have never seen any hate speech or these silly ideas in any mosque ive been too and ive been to.. a lot. 6 week road trip, new mosque every two or three days all the way to detroit and back. Then almost every single Mosque in BC. I have yet to get to ft st john and I am missing two in Vancouver. So i think i have a pretty darn good sampling size to draw my opinion from.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I would very strongly object to cameras inside of daycares and my children attend a daycare as well.. not to mention my Mom runs one


I'm genuinely surprised to hear that. Have you seen some of the videos of abuse that happens at daycare?  Holy shit. Kids getting picked up by their freaking heads.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLidfDb0F1g
You're a more trusting parent than I.  May I ask what would make you very strongly object to cameras safe guarding the treatment of your children?



> We may not have specifically covered it and yes, it could be the easy way out. But let's face it, you know I am going to take the position that only a very minute minority of Muslims or so called Muslims follow these radical ideas, so it does not legitimize watching all Muslims. I personally know of a white christian guy who said he would kill any black guy who dated his daughter, so does that mean we should put cameras in all homes of religious people as well? Because if that problem is the place of worship, then those who attend those places must be a problem to.. right? Were does it end, how much liberty are we Canadians willing to give up to protect us from the remote chance the idiotic minority may do something?


I can guess at your position, yes of course. In turn I know you're aware of my bias however I'm making en effort to speak in general terms rather than single out specific religions. 

Putting cameras in peoples homes is going too far (unless you have a Samsung TV..) but in a place of worship? That's not without it's merits. I can dig up a video of children in a mosque (could as easily be a church) being physically abused. Kicked in the spine, cuffed in the face.  If and when children are taught to hate it's going to stay with them. I'd argue contribute to radicalizing them.  



> I am sure a lot of those cameras were installed to protect against thieves and vandalism and a lot of Mosques already have cameras for this reason too. Just imagine how the gun community would react, if we put independent cameras in a gun range to 'monitor' what happened there. Cause you know, things get said there.


I would support cameras at gun ranges for the purposes of monitoring what people are saying if murdering gays, non-believers, infidels, people who laugh at bald men etc.. was common place. Actually I would say they should be arrested.   Why is it okay for religious people to preach murder? 



> Sorry, I just want to live a free life.


Except your religion tells you what you can and can't eat. How to dress. How to act. Whether or not you can listen to music. Depending on which expert you listen to.



> Terrorism is not a real threat to people in north america, you a more likely to die in a car accident or many other ways then in a religious terrorist act.. so yea, feel free to worry about it. But the minority of people, who may never put risk to my family, who i may not be able to stop even if i spent billions of dollars.. i wont worry about. Ill worry about things i can control. And speeches made by one person in one mosque half ways across canada are not under my control.



I'll worry about car accidents AND terrorism.  I've both been in a car accident and heard a clergy member (in a video) talking about murdering people while in down town Toronto. Real enough for me.



> Ps Also i have never seen any hate speech or these silly ideas in any mosque ive been too and ive been to.. a lot. 6 week road trip, new mosque every two or three days all the way to detroit and back. Then almost every single Mosque in BC. I have yet to get to ft st john and I am missing two in Vancouver. So i think i have a pretty darn good sampling size to draw my opinion from.



In all your time visiting mosques you've never once heard something about harming other human beings? That's interesting.

Please don't feel I'm putting you on trial or attacking you with what I'm asking here. Your statement made me think of something though. While reading about Scientology, celebrities (and regular members) have suggested (or outright stated) that celebrities are exposed to a sort of Scientology-light version of it. They don't get hit with both barrels so to speak. They aren't exposed to the deeper darker aspect of that religion, including what happens when you try to leave.

Military wise I know when generals or high ranking officers make "surprise visits" we have a considerable amount of warning to make everything nice and presentable.  Outspoken members are essentially warned not to say anything, or given tasks away from where ever.

Being a sort of academic inspired (or inclined?) Muslim convert do you think it's possible at times for you to be presented a specific image? That your visits may be sort of catered too?  Or do you feel you're not given any special consideration and are a proverbial fly on the wall?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar, you can not look for a devil under every rock. Review this thread and consider the sheer amount of evidence I use to support my opinion, I in no way shape or form have I been exposed 'solely' to a 'Islam light' version. If I was so amused I can supply all the so called evidences the radical Imams use for the extremist positions they hold, showing you I understand their arguments and then debunk them all. But the hundreds of hours that would require and the dubious result, is not worth it to me.

Discussing war and preaching Murder are two complete and different things. I have never heard (aside from the internet) any so called Imam preach murder of 'infidels'. Also insert this for most other anti-Islam views that are held. If I ever ran into or run into someone advicating Murder or wife beating or any such bs, I would be getting my evidence then detaining the piece of junk until police arrived. I guess i better amend what I said, I have heard a person, not a religious leader advocate murder and I dealt with that as best and thoroughly as I could, but it did not happen in a mosque and the guy is mentally handicapped in and out of jail and on an first name basis with the rcmp.

Bad things happen in every single area of the world, no place is exempt. But if we start taking away our rights because we can 'find' things 'online', were do we stop? Hell if anyone wanted to demonize gun owners, all it would take is a few hours on CGN to have all the material they would ever need. If you want to find a demon you will, wether or not it actually exists is another thing entirely.

My kids will continue going to daycare, where no cameras exist. My wife and I even trust that daycare to keeps my kids diet halal as well and they are non Muslim! I will continue to live my life and not worry about these silly little things.

And yes I ignored the jabs. I am ignorant Jarnhamar, of many many things, but on some things, I am confident enough, to know I am right. But me believing I am right, does not mean you can't believe you are right too and I will defend your right to be a critic of Islam.

We all deserve privacy and the ability to live and make choices without the fear.. that the government is watching us 24/7. How many hundreds and thousands of places of worship and daycares etc, never ever have any of these things happen in them.. that alone tells me they do not deserve to be demonized.

The Internet is either a wonderful place or an evil place, you have stormfront and my little pony in it and where you end up is where you decide to go.

Abdullah

Ps and yes i know many of you fine chaps have been to the mid east and that is a wholly different discussion.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Editing my post for brevity and avoid circular arguments.




> Bad things happen in every single area of the world, no place is exempt. But if we start taking away our rights because we can 'find' things 'online', were do we stop? Hell if anyone wanted to demonize gun owners, all it would take is a few hours on CGN to have all the material they would ever need. If you want to find a demon you will, wether or not it actually exists is another thing entirely.
> My kids will continue going to daycare, where no cameras exist. My wife and I even trust that daycare to keeps my kids diet halal as well and they are non Muslim! I will continue to live my life and not worry about these silly little things.



Which right of yours is violated by having a camera in a church or day care?  Did you watch the video in the link I posted? Somehow I doubt if I put my hands on your kids and treated them the way the children in the video are treated you would consider it a silly thing.

I'm more concerned about catching abuse where and when it's happening. In my opinion the trade off is worth it. The parents of the kid thrown around in the video I posted would have never known had it not been recorded. That camera may have even saved the kids life. Likewise we would have never known a Mosque in down town Toronto was talking about purifying the filth of the Jews had a camera not been involved.



> The Internet is either a wonderful place or an evil place, you have stormfront and my little pony in it and where you end up is where you decide to go.



Exactly right. As a parent there is no reason to monitor your children's online activity or who's talking to them.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Editing my post for brevity and avoid circular arguments.
> 
> 
> Which right of yours is violated by having a camera in a church or day care?  Did you watch the video in the link I posted? Somehow I doubt if I put my hands on your kids and treated them the way the children in the video are treated you would consider it a silly thing.
> 
> I'm more concerned about catching abuse where and when it's happening. In my opinion the trade off is worth it. The parents of the kid thrown around in the video I posted would have never known had it not been recorded. That camera may have even saved the kids life. Likewise we would have never known a Mosque in down town Toronto was talking about purifying the filth of the Jews had a camera not been involved.
> 
> Exactly right. As a parent there is no reason to monitor your children's online activity or who's talking to them.



I think you are missing my point, just because these heinous and disgusting things happen in a few extremely isolated instances. Is no reason, what so ever, to monitor everyone.

But if that is a legitimate reason, to you, then we must install cameras in homes as well. Because we all know abuse happens there as well.

I find it to be a silly idea, I give no weight to the paranoia that feeds these ideas and I will discount and stand against them as much as possible.

Just because one thing happens in one place, is no reason to get paranoid and watch everyone. If it is, you may not like where it stops.


----------



## jollyjacktar

But, Abdullah, if no camera is placed anywhere, you won't catch a thing.  Being wilfully blind to (whatever boogieman) won't make it go away or not happen.  That being said, I don't know what solution that would suit everyone would be...


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I think you are missing my point, just because these heinous and disgusting things happen in a few extremely isolated instances. Is no reason, what so ever, to monitor everyone.


A few isolated instances? Come on Abdullah.  A quick google check of daycare abuse in Canada brings up quite a few hits. Pardon the poor pun.
A number of physical and sexual assaults.  Here's a video of a daycare provider slamming kids heads into a table.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/questions-after-lasalle-daycare-educator-caught-on-video-abusing-children-1.3229431

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/daycare+series+know+where+your+children/4387853/story.html
This woman in Surrey was hiding 24 kids at her day care. No big deal.


I'm going to guess if there were more hidden cameras inside places or worship we would see more concerning behavior and language.



> But if that is a legitimate reason, to you, then we must install cameras in homes as well. Because we all know abuse happens there as well.


And surgically attach gopro cameras to peoples foreheads as well
_reductio ad absurdum_
I'm suggesting there are merits to placing cameras inside places where children can be exposed to various forms of abuse or conditioning. Places parents may not always be present to monitor or see whats going on.  There is ample evidence of the benefits of cameras inside daycare and the abuse it's catching. It's hardly a case of it just happening once or twice. 

There are of course lots of examples of hate speech too.


> Allah has created the woman deficient. If she doesn't wear the hijab we hit her.
> Take the homosexual man and throw him off the mountain.
> You have to live like a state within a state until you take over.
> We hate the kuffarr
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btx0mm5KCMI





> Cure for aids, kill homosexuals.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w83kIAfuKoE


Being "found on the internet" hardly detracts from the legitimacy as a source. It's real and it's out there. 

We're not going to agree so I'll leave it at that but I think you're purposefully being incognizant.


----------



## Flavus101

Cameras open up their own can of worms. You will almost never get full coverage from a camera system, what happens when an event that appears suspicious happens but moves off camera?

The UK operates a system of cameras that monitor public spaces, I personally am not a big fan of that (call me a pessimist about Big Brother). Placing government cameras inside "private" businesses seems to be a step even further towards Big Brother.

I don't deny that abuses happen, I just don't think the overall good that will be accomplished by this outweighs the overall bad. In my mind we need to look at re-establishing the "family" as the central tenant of society, that will help to solve our issues of constantly relying on the "State" to look after us and instil morals and standards into society.


----------



## Jarnhamar

XXX


----------



## Kat Stevens

I'm in the middle of pitching a TV project to Hollywood. It's a reboot of All in the Family, but instead of a NY cab driver, the main character is going to be an Islamic teacher in Toronto, and the working title is All in the Madrasa. Pure genius concept, he can spew all the bigoted shit that Archie Bunker did back in a less enlightened age, and because he's a Muslim, nobody can get upset! Liberals won't complain for fear of being labeled islamophobic, and the network would never dare to cancel it. Job security for life, plus the weaker minds out there get to be indoctrinated in the ways of Islam, sort of like they are now with the Kardashians.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I am of the belief that every religious institution needs to publish their sermons online either transcripts or video and the transcripts must be in either English or French. This is not much of a stretch as many churches already do that anyways. It will not stop all of the hate speech, but it will stop it being promoted as the official party line from the Pulpit.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Kat Stevens]  and the working title is All in the Madrasa. 
[/quote]

Better than All in the Masada  ;D


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Better than All in the Masada  ;D



That show was a dead end.


----------



## Old Sweat

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That show was a dead end.



Groan!  :rofl:


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar I think I owe you and this site a better explanation of my opinion, or well a more nuanced one. My humor has been ill lately, so please forgive me for being short with you previously.

My understanding of your position is that, places of worship must be monitored via video to make sure no hate speech, abuses or basically any bad things happen there.. because we have seen videos and transcripts or reports of these things happening in places of worship.

My issue with that is that the negative things you speak of are generally extremely isolated issues. A quick search online lists via wiki that their are more then 90 Mosques in Canada. That does not count Musallahs, prayer rooms etc. In Kelowna alone we have one Mosque and 2 prayer rooms that are used for public prayers. Not to mention the musallah in penticton that does not qualify as a mosque and I would guess that there are far far more then 90 places of worship for Muslims alone in Canada. I would guesstimate 4-500 places of worship for Muslims in Canada or more.

Compare that to the 9, terrorist instances in Canada by Muslim extremists since 1999, (source ) and you will understand why I do not feel it is an issue to surveil all Mosques in Canada. I personally think watching issues like  this to be a better use of taxpayers money. Of course I know you will tell me that, due to extremists mosques these people radicalized but that is a simplistic answer to an extremely complex question. I found one quick article about paths to radicalization to be of interest and they even try to give a solution too! (Suprising in this day and age) the article . 

Now also our right wing.. (i do not want to call it news site because I find it is not worth that title) group the Rebel has a list of "extremists" or "radical" Imams  link  but I find the majority of who they list is either taken out of context, because I know the person and I know his opinion on the topic, or it is something that is completely legal to advocate for in Canada, so thus making it not worthy of surveillance. Mind you their was a couple I am not sure about, but I am not claiming there is no radical imams or mosques in Canada. I am arguing that mass surveillance is not needed or accetpable. Also furthermore quite a few Mosques in Canada already record and upload the sermons they have to online sources, so quite a number places are already voluntarily doing what you feel is best.

And now for why mass surveillance  fails and is a  bad idea, that creates more problems for stopping attacks.  All it does is breed an us vs them mentality, that divides Canadian Muslims against Canadians and leaves a fertile recruiting ground for extremist scum. Leaving law enforcement officers thousands upon thousands of extra hours of work to sift through, sermons, talks and actions of innocent people, they are wasting valuable time they could be using catching terrorists. The sheer costs to install surveillance equipment would be in the billions, the cost of extra manpower to effectively sift the material would be in the millions. All of that money would be better spent on initiatives like the CAVE conference Mufti Aasim Rashid had with the RCMP  link. Combating youth unemployment, so they do not feel disenfranchised. Working with minority groups and reconciling why we are at war with so called Muslim groups to the community, more talking about the Afghanistan invasion then Daesh.

Now my give, in all of this, is if we do have an known radical Imam or Mosque, then yes, watch it. But as those links show, the RCMP likely know who all the radical or people susceptible to radicalization already are. So lets allocate our resources to watching the bad guys, not us innocent chaps who pick our nose during friday khutbah. Do you have any idea how embarrassing that would be if that gets videotaped and reviewd :S

My opinion will always be for smaller government interference in daily life and more personal liberty. So maybe we can not reconcile our two drastically different opinions, but alas, this is Canada  I'm allowed to disagree 😂 

I hope this is better and more in tune with what is expected from me.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Jarnhamar I think I owe you and this site a better explanation of my opinion, or well a more nuanced one. My humor has been ill lately, so please forgive me for being short with you previously.


The devil is in the details, welcome back good neighbor   



> My understanding of your position is that, places of worship must be monitored via video to make sure no hate speech, abuses or basically any bad things happen there.. because we have seen videos and transcripts or reports of these things happening in places of worship.



It was a theoretical supposition.  A Kellie Leitch, so to speak. Would it ever pass as a law? For a hundred reasons no.

Hypothetically speaking even though if it were to pass as a law, it would be superficial at best. You mention some mosques already DO post their sermons online and you're right. If you watched the link I posted above you would see that one of the stories was about a Mosque that publishes their sermons online but also has a secret password protected chat site where their Muslim message is quite different than what's spoken in front of the camera. 'Live as a state within a state until you are ready to take over' kind of stuff.

Lying is dishonest and dishonourable but it's _context_ right?  Like, Taqiyya?. The lying to  Kafir (unbelievers) in order to advance the cause of Islam. "In some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them".  
Tawriya as well is another interesting Muslim phrase- intentionally creating a false impression. 


More on "context" coming up.



> My issue with that is that the negative things you speak of are generally extremely isolated issues.



I think it happens more than people recognize. When the speaker in the Mosque in Toronto was talking about purifying the place and killing non-Muslims no one inside the mosque reported it. Even _after _ a video of the speech was placed on line there was no uproar or media story. It only became news after someone made a complaint against the Mosque, I'm guessing, in retaliation after protestors were being investigated for hate speech. A little research and there it was.   Of course what was the first line of defense? Context. The murdering people stuff was taken in the wrong context. I'll be honest this whole "wrong context" seems to be the first line of defense when defending violence found in the Quran, including by yourself.

Besides someone blowing themselves up in a downtown Canadian city isn't always the end result of radicalization. Look at Robert Cerantonio, an Australian convert to Islam who is said to be instrumental in 2015 in talking to one of the 3 Canadian teenagers into attempting to travel to Syria and support ISIS. Luckily the 3 idiots were intercepted by the police.
CSIS is tracking some 60 Canadians who returned to Canada after supposedly fighting for ISIS. How many Canadians do you think are over there now supporting them?


You mentioned the Rebel.


> but I find the majority of who they list is either taken out of context, because I know the person and I know his opinion on the topic


Of course, wrong context, again.



> I am arguing that mass surveillance is not needed or accetpable.


Oversight is important when you're dealing with impressionable students.
If you attend basic training in the military you will see a desk at the back of your classrooms. That desk will have a copy of the lesson plan you are being taught and any applicable reference material. This is so staff members or people working in standards can stop by classes at random and sit down to watch and listen to the class. Ensure the instructor is teaching the proper material, not talking out of their ass and not going off the rails teaching their own shit. I personally hate it however I've seen cases of why it's 100% needed and required.





> All it does is breed an us vs them mentality, that divides Canadian Muslims against Canadians and leaves a fertile recruiting ground for extremist scum.


I wish I could recall a great quote about this. To paraphrase- if Muslims are that easily offended and can become radicalized because of silly reasons then they were bound to be radicalized anyways and just looking for a reason.



> Leaving law enforcement officers thousands upon thousands of extra hours of work to sift through, sermons, talks and actions of innocent people, they are wasting valuable time they could be using catching terrorists.


Not exactly correct. Nothing stops joe blow citizen from watching an online sermon and filing a complaint with the police when they see something they deem hate speech. In fact, that is exactly how the fellow in Toronto was caught. A citizen filed a complaint after seeing it online. No thousands and thousands of extra police hours required.

Besides, the Liberals already hired some 55 people to scour online sources in Canada for hate speech. 


If you don't mind me asking what's your views on Taqiyya and Tawriya?


----------



## foresterab

AbdullhaD and Jarnhamer,

I'd like to thank you for the discussion you have shared here.   Definitely some interesting points to make a person consider the differences in opinions and positions within Canadian society and while I can relate to parts of both of your positions I've been following the discussion for a couple of weeks to see how this comes out.

So thank you for the civilized debate on how the positions shake out and the information shared.

foresterab


----------



## AbdullahD

I will touch on a couple things only, I am relaxing in bed 

First thing, some thing you touched on is one 'toned down' sermon in english, for the masses and one far more radical for "devout" in a different language. One simple flaw in this, in many many Mosques is.. we all do not speak the same language  lets talk about Kelowna and Kamloops. We have Bosnian, Syrian, Somalian, Nigerian, Saudi, Pakistani, Bengali, Indian (native and east 😂), Canadian, Moroccan, South African Muslims in both of those Mosques.. and they do not all speak the same language.

So maybe, in some isolated instances (which is the main bone of my arguement) this is the case. But not in the rest of Canada. Heck sometimes you have a Pakistani guy leading the khutbah, reciting arabic so badly, because he does not understand it at all, that the arabs do not have a clue what he is saying. (It happens.. quite often 😂). So yea maybe a lot of people try to speak arabic in the khutbah, but that does not make it intelligible.

Second thing, you imply that Muslims do not self report. Anecdotally I can tell you that is not the case, but I will one up that too. So I like to say trump is wrong, that Muslims do self report, because I dare say the FBI would know . Also Muslims are become much more aware of issues that pertain directly to Muslims. So if we can flag things as they come up we are ahead of the game.

Thirdly, this more eccentric? Idea you have that we are like a sleeper cell just waiting for the code word to rise up and take over... gosh darn it, you figured us out, the games over, you win 😂 I wish you could understand how ludicrous this sounds man, it is darn near impossible to get all Muslims to agree on when Ramadan starts and end, when Eid is, wether to celebrate the Prophets birthday or heck even when to hold an open house to dispell myths about Islam.. if you could see the pettiness that goes on in Mosques around Canada regarding these issues, you would sleep like a baby at night. But this does not negate that, the 1% of lunatics may be doing some idiotic thing like this, but it does not mean we all are. 

Fourthly, context. Sorry, but I do not trust anything, at all, unless I know the complete context. Just like a guy pointing and firing a firearm at another person, context matters. If a guy is robbing a bank and does it, he is a murderer and deserves the gallows. But if he is a soldier under fire, it is something completely different. So until we know who, when, why, where etc something was said or done, their is absolutely no point in making any judgements on it. Especially with Islam you need to understand, who, were, when, why and how it was traditionally or classically, implemented and contrast that to this day and age and compare it to the legal framework of the sharia, before passing judgement. 

Fifthly, you asked about my opinion on something to do with Islamic sharia. Well my opinion is worth mud on these matters, I am in now way, shape or form eligible to pass an opinion on them. But here  is a read up on taqqiya, but I swear I have covered it before already.. or maybe not, a lot of Islamophobes scream taqqiya and it is quite annoying, to be honest. Tawriya was it? God, they are getting creative these days, heck I honestly did not know what the word meant and when I went to look it up.. all it showed was anti-Islam sites for the first little while. Any rate, I would just say review the link I used for taqqiya. Tawriya, ommitting facts or creative interpretations of the truth is haram in almost every single case. Another  link that is weak from a scholarly perspective but short and lists the only three times a Muslim can lie and kind of out lines limitations so taking these two links together, i think you will get the picture.

I am sticking to my guns that Muslims do self report as the FBI said, mass surveillance is futile as my multiple links early showed and we should zero in on other things. Btw I have been trying to down an extremist page on facebook for a while and it will not come down, they hold Anwar awlaki and others like him as martyrs.. lets just say I am up to 3 or 4 death threats now 😂. Next step since Facebook is not shutting it down is the RCMP. Also I did not ignore your bmq example on purpose, i just forget about it and do not feel it is apples to apples here and it is now 29 minutes past when i wanted to be asleep so I am going to crash.

Abdullah

Ps ForesterAb, I am honestly amazed at this conversation myself. Do not tell anyone, but I had to learn some stuff to supply answers on here too. But please remember I am not a scholar, I try to only quote legitimate scholars.. but if I slip up, please forgive me and do not hold it against me. I am extremely fearful, that while i try to clear up these misconceptions, i accidentally give out incorrect info due to being lazy and someone believes something that I never meant to convey. Any rate thank you  35 minutes past bedtime now 😂😂😂 night guys.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> I will touch on a couple things only, I am relaxing in bed



Some fatwas for the bedroom eh?

1).





> First thing, some thing you touched on is one 'toned down' sermon in english, for the masses and one far more radical for "devout" in a different language. One simple flaw in this, in many many Mosques is.. we all do not speak the same language



Here's some stuff I pulled from an undercover video taken over 4 months. Fluent English.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Btx0mm5KCMI]
Green Lane Mosque in Birmingham UK. .
1:39- "I don't believe them because they are Kuffar and lying is a part of their religion" (some irony there)
2:30- Christians, Jews, America, UK, France,Germany  "Come against the religion of Islam"  (what does the Quran say to do with people who go against Islam again?_
2:50- American convert to Islam- "We want to do away with man made laws"
4:09- Speaker doesn't agree with violent terrorists, but he's closer to them then the criminal kaffir.
4:39- If a Muslim doesn't follow their strict rules "bury him with the Kaffir"
4:51- "Muslims shouldn't be happy living in anything other than a total Islamic state"

I'll stop there but there's almost an hour of this stuff.

Green lane mosque also has a secret chat room set up where other sermons get broadcasted to a select group of followers. Any guesses on what they talk about?

Sorry Abdullah, because of videos like this I'm not buying the "extremely isolated instances" mantra.

2).





> Second thing, you imply that Muslims do not self report. Anecdotally I can tell you that is not the case


If that is what I came across as implying then that's mistaken. Luckily Muslims do self-report. From reporting their peers down to reporting their own family members (as incredibly hard as I imagine that is). I think there's considerable obstacles that come with "self-reporting" such as the threat of violence and ostracization.  I think in many cases too people don't see things talking about killing unbelievers as hate speech because they've become accustomed to hearing it.

3).





> Thirdly, this more eccentric? Idea you have that we are like a sleeper cell just waiting for the code word to rise up and take over... gosh darn it, you figured us out, the games over, you win 😂I wish you could understand how ludicrous this sounds man


I don't think I was implying that at all. You're kind of moving the goal posts there.  I've said numerous times I think the _flash to bang_ of how quick followers of Islam go from every day people to violent outraged mobs is much quicker and pronounced than any other religion. 


4).





> Fourthly, context. Sorry, but I do not trust anything, at all, unless I know the complete context. Just like a guy pointing and firing a firearm at another person, context matters. If a guy is robbing a bank and does it, he is a murderer and deserves the gallows. But if he is a soldier under fire, it is something completely different. So until we know who, when, why, where etc something was said or done, their is absolutely no point in making any judgements on it. Especially with Islam you need to understand, who, were, when, why and how it was traditionally or classically, implemented and contrast that to this day and age and compare it to the legal framework of the sharia, before passing judgement.



This simply seems like a convenient way to justify unacceptable by todays standard speech to me.
"Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like' I don't think they're talking about which direction to drive there.

5).





> Fifthly, you asked about my opinion on something to do with Islamic sharia. Well my opinion is worth mud on these matters, *I am in now way, shape or form eligible to pass an opinion on them.*



Now I find that very strange. Why aren't you able to pass an opinion on them Abdullah?  An opinion is just an opinion after all. With the amount of Mosques you've visited, your Islamic contacts all over the world, all the reading and reasearch you've down and your self-professed love of the academic side if Islam I would think you're in an *exceptional position* to offer an opinion.  But, I've noticed you often respond to questions like this by attempting to send the question asker elsewhere to read up on someone elses words. Other websites.

If I was a suspicious sort.... I would wonder if this was a subtle attempt to spread the word of Islam  >
But really, I find it quite strange.



6).





> But here  is a read up on taqqiya, but I swear I have covered it before already.. or maybe not, a lot of Islamophobes scream taqqiya and it is quite annoying, to be honest.


What's your definition of an Islamophobe, Abdullah?



7).





> I am sticking to my guns that Muslims do self report as the FBI said


No disagreement here


8).





> lets just say I am up to 3 or 4 death threats now 😂. Next step since Facebook is not shutting it down is the RCMP.


You'll have an easier time getting FB to shut down the page if you report them for being right wing.

9).





> Also I did not ignore your bmq example on purpose, i just forget about it and do not feel it is apples to apples here


I'll wait for it to sink in


----------



## Jarnhamar

Words from a Canadian Ex-Muslim.

http://www.sedaa.org/2017/03/where-is-the-solidarity-with-ex-muslims/


> If you prick us, do we not bleed?
> 
> In the Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare wrote those words for a Jew to say, but today, those words will come from the mouth of an ex-Muslim.
> 
> I normally try to stay positive and veer far away from the victimhood narrative, as I was raised to think of myself as a victim when I was a Muslim. I was taught that the big, bad non-believers all hated us and wanted us dead and don’t care about us and that we should hate them back, we should never trust them, and indeed, that we should kill them.
> 
> But growing up in Canada, I saw no evidence of that. My teachers weren’t Muslim, but they were kind and loving.


More at the link.


On the Author


> Yasmine is a Canadian citizen of an Arab background. She has written a memoir about her journey out of Islam, ‘Some of my best friends are Jewish, and other confessions of an ex-Muslim’.
> 
> She endured decades of physical and mental torture. She was forced into a marriage with a member of Al Qaeda, after he was bailed out of prison by Osama bin Laden himself.  She wore a niqab, and lived in a home/prison with paper covering all the windows. Yet, somehow, with nothing but a high school diploma and a baby in tow, she got out.


----------



## AbdullahD

1) Muslims represent, 4.5% of the UK's population coming in around 2.7 million adherents and you found one mosque. Now if you were finding hundreds of Mosques spewing extremist crap, then I would give you a leg to stand on. But yes the bad, is very bad and it exists, but it does not mean the majority of Muslims are bad.

2) Sorry I misread you there, my bad. But I highly doubt we are desensitized to hate speech, any Imam who talks about killing the kuffar, gets noticed and reported. I have access to two tafsirs of Quran and the verses people use to legitimize killing the non-believers are not explained that way in the Tafsirs and Qurans i have seen. But yea, if you take it out of context it is easy to get there. But I assure you stuff like this is not widespread. I am on the road right now ill try to find something later to back my stuff up.

3) Twice I misread you, again I am sorry. I think the so called 'flashbang' has more to do with cultural, political or social issues then religious issues. Otherwise the Muslim countries that do not have these flashbang issues, would. Also looking to the riots in the US and protests etc.. I think I have something to stand on.

4) Oh the things I will never get you to agree on 😂 but I understand your viewpoint and I can respect that but I do not agree.

5) If you ask my opinion on things not to do with sharia principles, guidelines or laws. Ill give you an opinion. But if you ask my opinion on those things, it is the equivalent of asking a first year engineering student to design you plans for a thermo-nuclear reactor or some such nonsense, i simply do not have a strong enough grounding and I am not confident enough to give opinion. Until and unless I get that well rounded education, I won't give opinions.

I hope that suffices.. but then again, if you became Muslim, I just have to say, i would probably find myself extremely amused at the irony lol. But alas I assure you I am not doing that.

6) if it makes any sense I consider you a critic, not an Islamophobe. My definition, which i have never articulated is basically.. Anyone who has a fear or phobia of Islam but lacks even the most rudimentary knowledge of Islam and actively combats Islam out of ignorance. You, I find you to be a critic of Islam, because you seem to actually know some things about Islam. So I guess knowledge and how actively you fight against Islam makes the difference. If you are ignorant but do not do anything either, I would not consider that person an Islamophobe. 

7) 99 more points to go 😂

8) I agree with that sadly.

9) once my gut falls off and I finish BMQ, I will get back to you 😂


----------



## Flavus101

AbdullahD, I am one that for the most part stays on the sidelines. However I appreciate both jarnhamar and yourself discussing this topic in a civil manner. It helps people like myself gain insight into the various topics.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD]

5) If you ask [b]my opinion on things not to do with sharia principles said:
			
		

> Now their are things that are covered by Islamic law and the sharia.. and things that are not. There are things that are considered obligatory and things that are considered encouraged or neutral or disliked. The *sharia gets a lot of hate, because people misinterpret it* and force people to do things (which i may add is forbidden).
> 
> *I am a believer that the Sharia is comprehensive*, but not exhaustive. Ie within the sharia you can find tips for how to get deals suchs as getting three quotes for a price before buying.. but it is not obligatory to follow these guidelines and the sharia wont explain to you why GMC products are so much better then Ford's.
> 
> *The sharia's main goal is to get everyone to paradise, outside of this main goal there is a lot  of lee way. Heck the sharia will teach you sex etiquette *but it is hardly obligatory to follow it all lol, so yea* it is comprehensive* and the more you follow it the closer to God you can become but! You dont need to follow every single thing.



As you can see above it seems you are confident in telling us what Sharia's main goal is and feel it is comprehensive. Not something suggested by a neophyte. 
But now you don't have an opinion on anything relating to it? I'm sure you understand my confusion  ???




> 6) if it makes any sense I consider you a critic, not an Islamophobe.



Thanks Abdullah I appreciate that though I wouldn't have been insulted had you said otherwise. According to many definitions even disliking the religion of Islam makes me an Islamophobe. 
As far as fear goes if I have a fear of something it's that that Canada will begin looking like Germany, Sweden, France etc.. while our leaders live in gated communities with armed security waving to the rest of Canada telling us everything is fine (that's possibly crossing over into another topic though).



With that, I believe I've said all I can on the subject and I'm just going in circles. I will bow out for the time being until I can offer something more substantial.


----------



## AbdullahD

My first quote was dealing with a specific thing, you wanted my opinion on, something that scholars need to give fatawa on. And something I lack the ability to reproduce from memory.

My second quote are general statements that I believe to be true and can attribute to different scholars directly. So I can trust myself their. Mufti Aasim Rashid, Mufti Menk, Mufti Abu Layth, Mufti Atabek Shukrov etc etc for the misinterpret one. Moulana Mazhar, Moulana Islamullah etc for the Sharia being comprehensive. Regarding the sharias main goal is to get someone to paradise, just about every scholar I have ever talked to. 

But something as complex as taqqiya or other such things or things even outside my madhab, I can not answer because I simply don't have a solid enough grounding.

If you want Islamic sex etiquette get a book by Mufti Ibn Adam Al Kawthri I think it is. Neat book 😂

I am not a debater usually, so maybe I do not convey what I mean very well on occasion and to be bluntly honest, sometimes I give opinion when I really should not. So sometimes I am strict on it, other times i slip up, but generally speaking I dislike strongly giving and have severe worries about giving opinions on the sharia. But that does not mean I won't screw up, if you see my occasionally screw up and give opinion, just know I do not like it.

Ps also i know my explanation is weak, i am noticing that now and trying to build a better guideline on how I handle these issues in the future. To be honest, this site, is the only place, in the world, were I have to worry about this. So I lack a more defined framework regarding it, but I am working on it and will try to stick to the framework I develop so i do not become a hypocrite.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Gunman wannabe at Orly Airport yesterday, said he was there to die for Allah.  Fuckwit got his wish.

Shared under the fair dealings provision of the copyright act, full story, photos and video at link below.



> Autopsy finds drugs, alcohol in Paris airport attacker
> Gunman shot at Paris airport was 'under the influence,' father says
> Thomson Reuters Posted: Mar 19, 2017 11:45 AM ET Last Updated: Mar 19, 2017 8:56 PM ET
> 
> Police questioned and released relatives of a man shot dead at a Paris airport, as investigators continue to search for clues and an autopsy and toxicology tests found drugs and alcohol in his system.
> 
> Paris prosecutor Francois Molins said late on Saturday that the man, named as 39-year-old Ziyed Ben Belgacem, had shouted he was there to "die for Allah" when he tried to seize the gun from a woman air force member on patrol at Orly airport on Saturday morning.
> 
> After throwing down a bag containing a can of petrol and putting an air pistol to the head of the soldier, he was shot three times by her colleagues.
> 
> More than 230 people have died in France in the past two years at the hands of attackers allied to the militant Islamic Islamist group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS). These include coordinated bombings and shootings in November 2015 in Paris when 130 people were killed and scores injured.
> 
> With the country in the throes of a highly charged election campaign before a two-round presidential election in April and May, the attacks fuelled the political debate about security.
> 
> Belgacem, who had been in and out of prison for theft and drug offences according to judicial sources, was already on the authorities' radar. They said he became a radicalized Muslim when he served a prison term several years ago for drug-trafficking.
> 
> He had been reporting regularly to police under the terms of a provisional release from custody for theft and he did not have the right to leave the country.
> 
> Several hours before he was killed, Belgacem had shot and wounded a police officer with his air pistol after a routine traffic stop north of Paris before fleeing, officials said.
> 
> Later he entered a bar in Vitry-sur-Seine, on the other side of Paris about 10 kilometres from Orly, and opened fire with his air gun without hitting anyone. He also stole a car before arriving at the airport.
> 
> Regret after police stopped car
> 
> Belgacem's father, who was initially detained by police but then released, denied his son had been involved in terrorism.
> "My son has never been a terrorist. He has never prayed: he drinks. And, under the influence of alcohol and cannabis, this is what happens," the father, whose name was not given, told Europe 1.
> 
> He said he had received a phone call from his son in which Belgacem referred to shooting the police officer, saying: "I ask your forgiveness. I screwed up with a policeman."
> 
> The Paris prosecutors' office said toxicology tests conducted as part of an autopsy found traces of cocaine and cannabis in Belgacem's blood.
> He also had 0.93 grams of alcohol per litre of blood when he died Saturday, the prosecutors' office said. The legal limit for alcohol while driving in France is 0.5 grams per litre.
> 
> A police search of his flat found cocaine, said Molins, the Paris prosecutor.
> 
> A brother and cousin of Belgacem were also questioned by police and then released on Sunday, the judicial source said.
> 'Our government is overwhelmed,' says Le Pen
> 
> Belgacem was born in Paris, according to the prosecutor. French media said his family was of Tunisian origin.
> Presidential candidates responded swiftly to the incident.
> 
> Conservative François Fillon said that France was in a "situation of virtual civil war" and spoke out against a proposal to lift a state of emergency in place since the November 2015 attacks.
> 
> Far-right candidate Marine Le Pen, running on an anti-immigration, anti-EU ticket, said the Orly attacker could have caused a "massacre."
> "Our government is overwhelmed, stunned, paralyzed like a rabbit in the headlights," she told an election rally.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-orly-airport-man-shot-by-soldiers-1.4031797


----------



## jollyjacktar

> A Montreal mosque is facing a police complaint and rebukes from the larger Muslim community after a video of an imam delivering a sermon in which he asks for Jews to be killed surfaced online.
> 
> The sermon took place at the Dar Al-Arqam Mosque in the city's Saint-Michel neighbourhood on Dec. 23, 2016.
> 
> The video was posted to the mosque's YouTube channel three days later. The imam in the video is Jordanian cleric Sheikh Muhammad bin Musa Al Nasr — he was reportedly an invited guest of the mosque.
> 
> In the video, the imam says in Arabic, "O Muslim, O servant of Allah, O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
> Part of the phrase references an Islamic hadith, which interprets the words and actions by the Prophet Muhammad.
> CBC independently verified the speech and its translation.
> 
> Spike in calls about hateful comments since mosque shooting, Montreal police chief says
> 
> CBC Montreal has reached out to the Dar Al-Arqam mosque for comment and was told no one was available.
> Accused of inciting violence
> 
> The video was brought to the attention of B'nai Brith Canada, which filed a complaint with Montreal police on Monday.
> 
> The organization said it is totally unacceptable that a mosque would allow this to go on.
> 
> "This is inciting violence, and this is inciting radicalization," said Harvey Levine, regional director of B'nai Brith in Quebec.
> 
> "It's against the law and has to be stopped," he said, adding that the complaint was filed with the Montreal hate crimes unit.
> 
> Harvey Levine, regional director of B'nai Brith in Quebec, urged police to act more quickly.
> 
> Montreal police confirmed they received a complaint, but would not provide any more information.
> 
> Mosque should apologize, says Muslim council
> 
> The president of the Muslim Council of Montreal, Salam Elmenyawi, wants to know why the imam was invited. He says the mosque should apologize.
> 
> He added that the Dar Al-Arqam Mosque is not one of the more than 40 institutions the council represents.
> 
> Imam Ziad Asali of the Association of Islamic Charitable Projects told CBC Montreal's Daybreak Thursday that he was also mystified as to why the cleric was invited to preach.
> 
> "I do not understand how this person was invited to come and give a sermon and spread this hatred in Montreal against any community," he said.
> 
> The hadith is one of more than 100,000 that are written in many books, some of which are considered authentic, while others are not, said Asali.
> 
> "To use the themes of the Prophet to spread hatred is actually something that is disrespectful towards the Prophet himself," Asali said.
> 
> There are mosques in Montreal, the imam said, that embrace a more extremist message.
> 
> "These people, not only do they show hatred towards non-Muslims, they even show hatred to us Muslims," he said.
> 
> Other complaints
> 
> Levine said this is the second complaint against a Montreal-area mosque filed with the Montreal police's hate crime unit in just over 40 days.
> 
> He said the police are still investigating that first instance but says they are not taking action soon enough.
> 
> "This is totally unacceptable. We want to know why the hate crimes unit has not done something to date yet. This person should be arrested and charged for hate crimes," said Levine.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/imam-sermon-montreal-mosque-1.4037397



Abdullah, this appears to be a clear cut case of hate speech from the pulpit of a Montreal mosque from just before Christmas last year.  A complaint to police about this has been made and is apparently the 2nd complaint in the past 40 days.  This makes me ponder, despite your personal experience of never coming across it yourself in a western mosque, is this then just an eastern NA problem?  Or, is it catch as catch can where you maybe have been fortunate to have missed shit head days at whichever house of worship you were visiting or are the eastern branches of your faith up to no good at times.  

It is heartening to read in the story that there have been objections raised from within your community against this POS from Jordan's sermon.  But the fact that it was posted in video, on the website of this particular mosque after the fact, does suggest to me to be an official sanction of such filth from the powers that be there.  That, isn't cool or acceptable to me by any religious/non religious organization.  I hope the authorities take some affirmative action instead of quailing at the though of offending someone.


----------



## Flavus101

And yet some are confused when people say enough with this coddling of the muslim religion. We aren't afraid to condemn Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. When you elevate one group above the rest it is only a matter of time before they believe that they are superior and can do what they wish without repercussion.

I hope charges come swiftly and the "leadership" of that localities religious institution is removed.


----------



## George Wallace

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> And yet some are confused when people say enough with this coddling of the muslim religion. We aren't afraid to condemn Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. When you elevate one group above the rest it is only a matter of time before they believe that they are superior and can do what they wish without repercussion.
> 
> I hope charges come swiftly and the "leadership" of that localities religious institution is removed.



George Orwell's "Animal Farm".


----------



## George Wallace

Just heard of a Muslim threatening other Muslims at a Mosque in London, Ontario, 20 March 2017.  Never made the MSM.

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/03/19/suspect-arrested-after-threatened-shooting-at-london-muslim-mosque


----------



## Kat Stevens

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> And yet some are confused when people say enough with this coddling of the muslim religion. We aren't afraid to condemn Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. When you elevate one group above the rest it is only a matter of time before they believe that they are superior and can do what they wish without repercussion.
> 
> I hope charges come swiftly and the "leadership" of that localities religious institution is removed.



It's not a matter of time at all. Islamic extremists, and not so extreme-ists, have always felt it's destiny that they dominate the earth. This just reinforces their belief.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Abdullah, this appears to be a clear cut case of hate speech from the pulpit of a Montreal mosque from just before Christmas last year.



Maybe, maybe not. I followed the CBC link, tried googling this Sheikh and tried to find an english version of this video and failed to find anything to give me a wider understanding of what this sheikh was saying. The most I found was this. But it did not help.

Now without any context as to what the sheikh was saying and why, I have to make assumptions. The best I can tell is they are Quoting a Hadith about the end of times, that is traditionally found in the books of tribulations. Source 

This Hadith, if it is the one he was talking about, details a prophetic war of Muslims vs the misguided Jews. Misguided being the operative word, a group of Jews will and do exist that follow Judaic beliefs as correctly as they can, this hadith is not talking about them as per my knowledge. This hadith is talking about Jews who have been misguided away from Judaic beliefs and follow the Dajjal (anti christ in christian terms). The full tafsir I can not recall right now, I do not know if Muslims or Jews start the war etc but I do know this hadith is not used by the Sharia (of the four traditional Madhabs) to legitimize anti-semitism or to encourage people to hurt or malign our Jewish brethren. It is used in part, to show the chaos of the end of times.

So if his talk was about the craziness of the end of times, it is not hate speech, in my opinion. But! If he used this hadith to legitimize hating our Jewish brethren, lock him up. Also, reading Deuteronomy or Numbers in the bible, should widen the view a bit. If this is hate speech, then what is in the bible is too. It is not what is written it is about how it is interpreted, how things get understood is extremely important. 

  





> A complaint to police about this has been made and is apparently the 2nd complaint in the past 40 days.



Aye, hopefully the police do a thorough job and mayhap we withhold our judgement until hate speech is proven.

  





> This makes me ponder, despite your personal experience of never coming across it yourself in a western mosque, is this then just an eastern NA problem?  Or, is it catch as catch can where you maybe have been fortunate to have missed crap head days at whichever house of worship you were visiting or are the eastern branches of your faith up to no good at times.



There are more Muslims then I on this site, they can maybe back up or debunk my position. Snippets of a conversation, does not, in my books, make a complete case against someone.



> It is heartening to read in the story that there have been objections raised from within your community against this POS from Jordan's sermon.  But the fact that it was posted in video, on the website of this particular mosque after the fact, does suggest to me to be an official sanction of such filth from the powers that be there.  That, isn't cool or acceptable to me by any religious/non religious organization.  I hope the authorities take some affirmative action instead of quailing at the though of offending someone.



If someone can find the full video, translated, I can form a better opinion on if I agree or not. But right now, I do not have enough to work with to demonize a person, I am sorry. I am sure, if someone only used one paragraph of something I said, they could easily demonize me.. so until I get more information I am withholding judgement.

This Imam Ziad Asali guy, was being a bit spineless though, even the most rudimentary search would show hadiths like this as being Sahih ie perfectly accepted. He should have used his time in the spotlight to give the accepted tafsir of these hadiths, instead of deflecting it and not addressing the issue. Heck for all we know, this Jordanian Sheikh was trying to convince youth that anti semitism is not an Islamic ideal and was explaining the tafsir's of these hadiths. If the Prophet sws wept at the funeral pocession of a Jewish person and personally attended the Death bed of another Jewish person, it should do a lot to lend weight to the arguement that Islam does not encourage anti-semitism

Ill end with an opinion piece, weakly written 😂
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/shameless-anti-jewish-propaganda-is-based-on-false-hadith/2013/04/09/

Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58da7e56e4b0e96354656eb6 said:
			
		

> How an apocalyptic tradition played into the hands of anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hatemongers
> A Jordanian cleric visiting Canada recently misleadingly cited a hadith without context or explanation, which rightly triggered condemnations from the Muslim community as well as numerous headlines around the world. A hadith is an oral report transmitted from the Prophet Muhammad, and can be incredibly complex as one needs to evaluate all the chains of transmission of a particular statement recorded in a hadith in order to arrive at an appropriate conclusion of what the particular hadith is actually talking about. In this case, a single phrase was cited, one describing rocks and trees calling out to Muslims, “There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”
> 
> This is not the first time that this text has been used to foment anti-Semitic sentiment within the Muslim community. Muslim leaders and scholars must forcefully denounce such rhetoric and clarify Islam’s unequivocal condemnation of all forms of anti-semitism, racism, discrimination, and xenophobia. Of course, Islamophobes pounced on the opportunity to trigger alarm bells and generate a new wave of propaganda accusing Muslims of genocidal ambitions towards Jews, and to claim that Islam is inherently anti-Semitic and a threat to Western civilization.
> 
> Explanation of the misquoted hadith
> A story about a supernatural apocalyptic battle between good and evil
> 
> When we look up different narrations of the Hadith in question, we find out that the phrase being quoted is actually part of a larger narrative in the genre of eschatology (the part of theology dealing with the end times and the Day of Judgment), describing the return of Jesus and the apocalyptic battle between Jesus and the Dajjal (Antichrist). [1] In this battle that will take place between the armies of Jesus and the Dajjal, several miracles are said to occur including that the Dajjal will melt when Jesus sees him, and that inanimate rocks and trees will speak and identify soldiers of the Dajjal (Sunan Ibn Majah 4077).
> 
> This is a story about a battle between two groups of soldiers involved in war, one side of which is clearly unjust; it does not refer to innocent civilians. And it’s not actually a battle about ‘Muslims versus Jews’! As a matter of fact, Muslims believe that all righteous Christians, Jews, and Muslims will be following Jesus after he returns (Qur’an 4:159), while misguided Christians, Jews, and Muslims will be following the Dajjal. Indeed, other Hadith demonstrate that the vast majority of the Dajjal’s forces will actually be misguided Muslims (Sahih Bukhari 1881).
> 
> Jews are amongst the good guys in the Muslim apocalypse
> 
> Moreover, the vast majority of Jews will NOT be followers of the Dajjal, as hadith commentaries describe that the Dajjal’s followers will come from only two out of the twelve Israelite tribes, while most Jews will be righteous folk amongst the forces of good uniting with virtuous Christians and Muslims (Fayd al-Bari, Anwar Shah Kashmiri, 4/197). [2] After all, the Dajjal will be a murderous dictator who claims to be God, an anathema to all followers of the Abrahamic tradition as well as to all people of conscience.
> 
> Muslims do not believe that rocks and trees will be pointing out random innocent bystanders, but rather soldiers of the Dajjal - combatants who are themselves involved in killing innocent people. It is about these specific combatants in the Antichrist army that rocks and trees will say, “There is one hiding behind me, come and slay him!” The religious identity of the Dajjal’s soldiers includes evildoers from all backgrounds (including misguided Muslims). Other variants of the hadith state that the rocks and trees will simply say, “Here is a rejector of truth hiding behind me!” (Musnad Ahmad 3546), and do not use the word “Jew” to describe them.
> 
> Therefore, this hadith describes a future battle between warriors and can only occur after the return of Jesus; in no way can this hadith be interpreted as a prescription to go out and harm civilians or peaceful members of any faith community. The Qur’an explicitly condemns violence against civilians and non-combatants, stating “Whoever kills a soul it is as if he has slain all humanity,” (5:32) and, “So if they withdraw and do not fight you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way against them,” (4:90). War is only permitted in defense against aggression or to aid the oppressed, as in the case of Jesus fighting against the Dajjal’s forces.
> 
> The question of Anti-Semitism and the Armageddon
> All three Abrahamic faiths (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) have well-established traditions about a prophesied Messiah who will engage in a battle against the forces of evil in the end times, whether it be the return of Christ who will battle all the nations of the earth, or the coming of the Masiach ben Yossef who will destroy the Edomites and enemies of Israel. [3] All three groups have had to explicate these esoteric eschatological passages in order to steer clear of antagonism towards other communities. In 2012, A DNC County Chairman resigned after he said, “The Christians just want us to be there so we can be slaughtered and converted and bring on the second coming of Jesus Christ.” [4] The Bible describes the Armageddon in painful terms regarding the enemies of Christ/Israel (See: Zechariah 14:12). [5] It’s necessary for people of all faiths to not allow their texts about the end times to be hijacked in a way that validates hateful speech or actions in the present. All Abrahamic faiths have eschatological teachings that are esoteric and require careful critical interpretation. The mainstream leaders of all faith communities have consistently emphasized tolerance and respect for others.
> 
> Islam denounces all forms of anti-Semitism and racism
> The Prophet Muhammad taught his companions to respect people of all faith backgrounds and to care for everyone. He said, “Donate in charity to people of all faiths” (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 3/177) [6] and he personally used to donate money regularly to sponsor a Jewish family in his community. [7] When the Prophet saw the funeral procession of a Jew passing by, he stood up out of respect. When some companions pointed out that the deceased was not Muslim, he rebuked them stating, “Is it not a human soul?” (Sahih Bukhari 1250). The lesson here is to respect all humanity. Some Jews converted to Islam and yet others, like the Rabbi Mukhayriq, continued to practice Judaism and still remained on good terms with the Prophet (Seerah Ibn Hisham 1/518). Even when the Prophet passed away, he had his armor mortgaged to a Jewish person (Sahih Bukhari 2759), a narration that shows he maintained good relations with Jews until his death. As the Qur’an says, “(God) does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just,” (60:8). According to Al-Tabari, one of the earliest commentators, this verse encourages good relations with “all the sects, creeds, and religions,” (Tafsir al-Tabari 60:8). These Qur’anic teachings have inspired Muslims throughout the ages. During World War II, the Grand Mosque in Paris rescued Jews fleeing the Nazis and provided them with a safe haven and means of escape. This is the legacy that Muslims must recall and revive.
> 
> In addition to respecting other faiths, Islam prohibits harming others and places great emphasis on Muslims maintaining positive relationships with those outside the faith. The Prophet Muhammad issued a stark warning about persecuting others, “Whoever harms a non-Muslim at peace with us will never smell the fragrance of paradise, although its fragrance can be found a distance of forty years of travel,” (Sahih Bukhari 6516). On the Day of Judgment, the Prophet himself will argue on behalf of persecuted non-Muslims and against the Muslims who persecuted them, “If anyone wrongs a non-Muslim at peace with us, violates his rights, burdens him with more work than he is able to do, or takes something from him without his consent, then I will be his advocate on the Day of Resurrection.” (Sunan Abi Dawud 3052). This stunning indictment should make any Muslim think twice before hurting anyone.
> 
> Yaqeen Institute will be releasing a full research paper studying the relationship between Muslims and Jews during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad and during Islamic history by the end of April 2017.



These guys say the Cleric 'misleadingly' quoted this hadith and it is not the first time it has been used to forment anti-semitism in Islamic communities. No source yet, but good read none the less.

Abdullah

Ps Yaqeen Institute website https://yaqeeninstitute.org


----------



## jollyjacktar

So then, he's a fucking dickbag who shouldn't be let back into the country as far as I'm concerned.  He's trying to stir shit up and we don't need his kind of trash here.


----------



## Jarnhamar

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> So then, he's a fucking dickbag who shouldn't be let back into the country as far as I'm concerned.  He's trying to stir shit up and we don't need his kind of trash here.



Yup.

I don't buy into the BS that he was somehow taken out of context. He's standing up in front of a crowd talking about killing jews. Considering how literal many muslims take this shit he's insighting violence IMO.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Shared under the fair dealings provisions of the copyright act.



> Calgary mosque tainted by 'dark element' of radicalization to close doors this week
> 
> Imam feels relief at new start after cluster of radicalized young men left to fight with terrorist groups
> 
> By Devin Heroux, Nazim Baksh, CBC News  Posted: Mar 30, 2017 5:00 AM MT| Last Updated: Mar 30, 2017 5:00 AM MT
> A Calgary mosque that became a focus in terrorism investigations after several men who prayed there left to fight abroad is closing its doors Friday — a move that leaves its imam and community with a sense of relief.
> 
> Nearly three years ago, CBC News revealed the identities of Salman Ashrafi, Damian Clairmont and others who left Canada to fight with jihadi groups in Syria and Iraq. All had attended prayers at the 8th and 8th mosque in downtown Calgary — whose name originates in its location at 835 8th Ave. SW. Many were killed abroad.
> 
> The imam, Navaid Aziz, told CBC News the community plans to begin anew, although it hasn't finalized its new mosque location. There's a sense of relief about finally leaving a place that became synonymous with radicalization, Aziz says.
> 
> "It was a place I taught and gave lectures. I performed people's marriages. We celebrated people's births in this mosque," said Aziz.
> 
> "Then there was this dark element that lingered over it, that overshadowed and overpowered all of these amazing experiences over something I had no control over, something I had nothing to do with.
> 
> "Once that negative incident happened, that was so powerful, that outshined all of the positivity. That's how I viewed 8th and 8th."
> 
> Aziz recalls a time he wanted to lock himself in a room and not come out. But now he's stepping out of the mosque and into the community.
> 
> In mid-March, Aziz organized the Stronger Together conference in Calgary. Hundreds of Muslims attended to address challenges facing the community.
> 
> It's a far cry from April 2012, when Aziz arrived from Montreal. There was no handbook or training manual for what he was about to encounter
> 
> In early 2014 Calgary began dominating headlines as Canada's jihadi hotspot.
> 
> Aziz felt the community wanted someone to take responsibility for the men radicalizing in a room connected to the mosque. So he did, even though he says it was impossible to know for sure what was going on
> 
> "I saw them a couple of times, but I never saw anything first-hand that would arouse my suspicion. In front of me nothing ever happened," Aziz said.
> 
> "I could never infiltrate that circle," he said. "Eventually, I find out that they're gone."
> 
> Clairmont, Ashrafi, Tamim Chowdhury, Ahmad Waseem and brothers Gregory and Collin Gordon — who converted to Islam and became known to members of Calgary's Muslim community as Abdul Malik and Khalid — left  Canada months apart. They were all killed fighting under the banner of ISIS
> 
> There have been no confirmed reports of the death of Farah Shirdon, another member of the 8th and 8th mosque. Shirdon, who was enrolled in the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology in Calgary until at least 2012, got worldwide notoriety when he appeared in an ISIS video released in 2014.
> 
> Before burning his Canadian passport, Shirdon, in full view of the camera lens, issues a threat to Canada, the U.S. and "all oppressors."
> 
> "We are coming and we will destroy you by the will of God," Shirdon says on the video.
> 
> He faces six criminal charges related to his alleged support of ISIS
> 
> Aziz says he knew Shirdon better than the other men who ended up with ISIS.
> 
> "When you think of that moment of where he takes the Canadian passport, tears it up and throws it into the flames, for me that is such a scene out of a Hollywood movie. It was such a dark moment for me," said Aziz.
> 
> While intelligence officers and police were looking for the cause of this radicalization, Aziz says he too was once a target.
> 
> "I was interviewed regularly after that time," Aziz said. "I would have trouble getting back into the country, getting held two or three hours by CBSA [Canada Border Services Agency] saying my file was flagged.
> 
> "I understood where it was coming from but I didn't appreciate the lack of clarity."
> 
> Aziz says he wishes he could have had a conversation with officials.
> 
> Instead, Aziz says, he co-operated with authorities for months. Police finally came around and saw him as an asset, he says. He went from being an alleged radicalizer to becoming the Muslim chaplain for the Calgary Police Service.
> 
> "I said I would love to do it. I want to help people. I want to make the world a better place," says Aziz.
> 
> Aziz says the experience at the 8th and 8th mosque has taught him valuable lessons. Today he says he is able to identify signs of radicalization in an individual before it is too late.
> 
> Many Muslims were in denial — but that's changing: former CSIS analyst
> 
> A former Canadian Security Intelligence Service analyst says security agencies were looking for partners in the community to stem the flow of men joining ISIS — but many in the Muslim community were in a state of a denial that it was happening.
> 
> Phil Gurski, who was a strategic analyst with CSIS for more than 30 years, says he wishes Aziz was as engaged then as he is now.
> ■Talk more politics, less religion, say critics
> 
> "He's trying to work with the police, with the authorities to say 'OK, can we work with these people, can we get to these people before it's too late?'" Gurski said.
> 
> "That denial has largely left because they know it's happening. We are not trying to say it's systemic, and it's certainly not existential, but it is happening," said Gurski.
> 
> Aziz hailed as key ally to fight extremism
> 
> CBC News has spoken with Nader Khalil, an RCMP outreach co-ordinator, and Const. Kim MacDonald of the Calgary Police diversity resource team, who say Aziz has emerged as an important ally in the fight against extremism in Calgary.
> 
> Muslim parents come to him with their concerns. Security agencies, government officials and interfaith groups say they're leaning on Aziz to help reshape the perception of Muslims in Calgary.
> 
> AUTHOR BIOS:
> 
> Nazim Baksh is an investigative producer with CBC News based in Toronto. He has won numerous awards over the years for his work on The National, The Fifth Estate and the CBC's documentary unit among more. Since 9/11, he has worked extensively on issues of national security and violent religious extremism.
> 
> Devin Heroux reports for CBC News and Sports. He's now based in Toronto, after working for the CBC in Calgary and Saskatoon
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-mosque-radicalization-8th-and-8th-1.4042692


----------



## AbdullahD

http://www.vernonmorningstar.com/news/awareness-created-about-islam/ said:
			
		

> Awareness created about Islam
> About 113 people attended a Saturday information session hosted by the Vernon Muslim Association
> RICHARD ROLKESat Apr 1st, 2017 1:15pmNEWS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Misconceptions about Islam were tackled head-on.
> 
> About 113 people attended a Saturday information session hosted by the Vernon Muslim Association partly as a result of recent mosque killings in Quebec and violence around the world.
> 
> “It’s incumbent on every person, and especially Muslims, to stand up and speak out,” said Muhammad William Saleh, who led the discussion.
> 
> And Saleh’s first target was the Islamic State, which has created upheaval in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> “It couldn’t be anything further from an Islamic state,” he said of the terrorist group.
> 
> “This is nothing more than a power grab.”
> 
> Some tension arose quickly as a woman took issue with Saleh’s interpretation of British and French colonialism and the impact globally.
> 
> “I can’t listen to this. What about the Ottoman Empire?” she said.
> 
> As she left the building, Saleh explained that oppression by European and American powers over the years, including propping up dictatorships, has shaped the perspective of individuals in those nations.
> 
> “They haven’t seen the good the west has brought to the world. If we are to speak about terrorism, we have to talk about why,” he said.
> 
> While some politicians, the media and religious leaders will point to passages of the Qur’an to describe all of Islam, Saleh says that isn’t wise.
> 
> “Context is huge. You can’t understand anything without context. A lot of verses are specific to events that happened to Muhammad,” he said.
> 
> “The people who are the problem are Muslims without intelligence. They have no understanding of their own religion. If we don’t speak out against these people, what good am I?”
> 
> Saleh insists that violence is not part of Islam.
> 
> “If the end goal is to have all of you become Muslim, will I achieve that by blowing up your kids? No. If violence is to spread our religion, what kind of religion is that to follow?”
> 
> Saleh also touched on the role of women and he says women covering up depends more on the culture of specific countries than it does with Islam itself.
> 
> “I have a highly educated wife. I’ve never asked her to cover her head. It’s a choice she’s made,” he said.
> 
> Some of Saleh’s comments were challenged and comparisons were made to Christianity.
> 
> “If a lot of North American converts to Islam don’t understand what it means, it’s open to interpretation,” said a woman.
> 
> However, another person in the audience countered that, “We’re here to learn how to move forward and not to debate what is best, the Qur’an or the Bible.”
> 
> A man in the crowd also presented his views.
> 
> “This is not a Christian country, this is a secular country. If you look at churches on Sunday, most people are not there,” he said.
> 
> Saleh insists that Islam’s roots include the new and old testaments of the Bible and Jesus Christ and Moses are considered important.
> 
> “But we believe the Qur’an is the last of those books,” he said.
> 
> For Saleh, the key to Saturday’s event was to bring people together and to start a conversation.
> 
> “We should never take what the media tells us. We should do our own research and get our own facts,” he said



Muhammad William is a very close friend of mine, our opinions on Islamic matters do differ a bit, but his knowledge far exceeds mine. He has done a number of functions like these and I respect him greatly for it.

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

Stockholm Truck Attack Kills 4; Terrorism Is Suspected


> STOCKHOLM — A man drove a stolen beer truck into a crowd of people in a popular shopping district in Stockholm on Friday afternoon and then rammed it into a department store, killing four people and injuring 15 others in an attack that unleashed bloodshed on the streets of another European capital.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/world/europe/stockholm-attack.html





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> [although in fairness the identity of the attacker hasn't been confirmed]


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Stockholm Truck Attack Kills 4; Terrorism Is Suspectedhttps://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/07/world/europe/stockholm-attack.html



I am certain it is just a tragic "truck hits shopping mall accident". Happens every day.


----------



## Kirkhill

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I am certain it is just a tragic "truck hits shopping mall accident". Happens every day.



Apparently this has the Swedish PM's attention:



> Swedish PM: Everything indicates crash is terror attack
> Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven has said everything indicates that the Stockholm truck crash is "a terror attack".
> 
> The Swedish intelligence agency also described the truck crash as an attack not an accident.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/07/truck-crashes-crowd-people-stockholm/

Terror in Sweden - although having met a Swede or two I am not sure what a terrorized Swede might look like.  I am not sure it is allowed.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> A *suspected terrorist targeted young children deliberately* as he drove a hijacked lorry into a crowded shopping street in Stockholm, witnesses claimed last night.
> 
> *Infants’ buggies were sent “flying through the air”,* one Swedish broadcaster reported, as the vehicle zigzagged along the pedestrianised Queen Street shopping district and embedded itself in the window of a department store.
> 
> “It swerved from side to side. It didn’t look out of control, it was trying to hit people,” a second witness, Glen Foran, an Australian tourist, told Reuters. “It hit people, it was terrible. *It hit a pram with a kid in it, demolished it.”*
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/07/truck-crashes-crowd-people-stockholm/



Lovely.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another, truck of peace.


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4393590/Police-officers-Stockholm-attacked-STONES.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline


> Police officers responding to the Stockholm terror atrocity were attacked by a gang of youths who pelted them with stones last night, Swedish policemen have said.
> 
> The attack happened last night near Rinkeby, part of the 'immigrant no-go zone' that gained notoriety when President Trump referred to it in a controversial speech in February.
> 
> It is thought that the officers were taking part in an operation to arrest a 17-year-old and his mother at an address linked to the 39-year-old prime suspect.


----------



## jollyjacktar

These two shitbirds have stepped up to US target lists now.  Hopefully they'll get serviced one of these days soon.



> Former Calgary man Farah Mohamed Shirdon 1 of 2 Canadians added to U.S. terrorist list
> Farah Mohamed Shirdon and Tarek Sakr were named as 'Specially Designated Global Terrorists' by U.S.
> 
> The U.S. Department of State has added two Canadians to its most-wanted global terrorist list.
> Farah Mohamed Shirdon and Tarek Sakr were named as "Specially Designated Global Terrorists," according to a release from the State Department.
> 
> The designation "imposes sanctions on foreign persons determined to have committed, or pose a serious risk of committing, acts of terrorism that threaten the security of U.S. nationals or the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States."
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/farah-mohamed-shirdon-tarek-sakr-u-s-terrorist-designation-1.4081885


----------



## The Bread Guy

Busted & outta the fight ...


> A former Air Force mechanic convicted of trying to join the Islamic State was sentenced to a maximum 35-year prison term in Brooklyn federal court Wednesday after a long diatribe blaming his conviction on being black and Muslim drew the patriotic wrath of the judge.
> 
> “This isn’t about whether you’re Muslim, Christian or Jewish,” U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis told Tairod Pugh, 49. “This is about whether you’re going to stand up for your country or betray your country which has done so much for you. . . . I have no sympathy.”
> 
> Garaufis also blasted Pugh’s repeated references to his military service with one parting shot after telling him he’d be in prison for the next 420 months.
> 
> “The work of the Islamic State is to destroy our way of life,” Garaufis said. “I can’t imagine someone who served in the U.S. military . . . would want for a single instant to consider crossing the border into Syria to destroy what we have built over the last 240 years. It’s a very sad thing you have done.”
> 
> Pugh, of Neptune, New Jersey, was convicted last year of attempting to give material support to a terror group and obstructing justice after traveling to Istanbul with an alleged plan to join the Islamic State, or ISIS, and trying to destroy incriminating evidence on his laptop and thumb drives when he was stopped at the airport.
> 
> Before trial, the government offered a plea that would have carried a maximum of 15 years in prison, but Pugh became the first alleged Islamic State recruit to take his case to trial with a defense that he never had the intent to join. Prosecutors did not request the maximum, asking for a sentence from 30 to 35 years.
> 
> Pugh served as an avionics specialist from 1986 to 1990, and then worked on both military and private planes for civilian contractors from 1995 to 2015, both in the United States and the Mideast. Although his laptop had jihadist videos and Facebook posts supporting the Islamic State, there was no evidence he ever tried to contact the terror groups, and he never sent a letter to his wife that said he was joining.
> 
> Defense lawyer Susan Kellman said Pugh was a troubled man” diagnosed with mental problems who never clearly signaled an intent to join the Islamic State, but was convicted of “thinking out loud” about how a Muslim convert should fit into the world. She urged a sentence under 15 years ...


U.S. Attorney's Office Eastern District of New York statement attached.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Bomb blast being reported in downtown Manila, must be those Jehovah's again.


----------



## a_majoor

Reprise on how to "turn" the population to our side. Certainly nothing we have tried to date seems to have worked:

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/06/03/counter-terror-lessons-from-americas-civil-war/



> *Counter-terror Lessons from America's Civil War*
> BY DAVID P. GOLDMAN JUNE 3, 2017
> 
> The essay below first appeared a year ago in The Asia Times, under the headline, "Why the terrorists are winning the intelligence war." There's a tried and true American approach to suppressing terrorism, and it worked quite well during Gen. Sherman's 1863 Kentucky campaign and Gen. Phil Sheridan's subsequent reduction of the Shenandoah Valley. We don't have to be particularly smart; we merely have to do some disgusting things. Sherman and Sheridan suppressed sniping at Union soldiers by Confederate civilians by burning the towns (just the towns, not the townsfolk) that sheltered them. In other words, they forced collective responsibility upon a hostile population, a doctrine that in peacetime is entirely repugnant, but that in wartime becomes unavoidable. By contrast, the peacetime procedure of turning petty criminals into police snitches has backfired terribly. No doubt we will learn that the perpetrators of tonight's horror at London Bridge were known to police, like the Manchester Arena suicide bomber and most of the perpetrators of large-scale terrorist acts in Europe during the past several years. (Update: "At Least One London Bridge Terrorist Was a 'Known Wolf'") The remedy is time-tested and straightforward. We merely require the will to apply it.
> 
> Why the terrorists are winning the intelligence war
> 
> Yet another criminal known to security services has perpetrated a mass killing, the Tunisian Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel. Why did the French police allow a foreign national with a criminal record of violence to reside in France? Apart from utter incompetence, the explanation is that he was a snitch for the French authorities. Blackmailing Muslim criminals to inform on prospective terrorists is the principal activity of European counter-terrorism agencies, as I noted in 2015. Every Muslim in Europe knows this.
> 
> The terrorists, though, have succeeded in turning the police agents sent to spy on them and forcing them to commit suicide attacks to expiate their sins. This has become depressingly familiar; as Ryan Gallagher reported recently, perpetrators already known to the authorities committed ten of the highest-profile attacks between 2013 and 2015.
> 
> The terrorists, in other words, are adding insult to injury. By deploying police snitches as suicide attackers, terrorists assert their moral superiority and power over western governments. The message may be lost on the western public, whose security agencies and media do their best to obscure it, but it is well understood among the core constituencies of the terrorist groups: the superiority of Islam turns around the depraved criminals whom the western police send to spy on us, and persuades them to become martyrs for the cause of Islam.
> These attacks, in other words, are designed to impress the Muslim public as much as they are intended to horrify the western public. In so many words, the terrorists tell Muslims that western police agencies cannot protect them. If they cooperate with the police they will be found out and punished.  The West fears the power of Islam: it evinces such fear by praising Islam as a religion of peace, by squelching dissent in the name of fighting supposed Islamophobia, and by offering concessions and apologies to Muslims. Ordinary Muslims live in fear of the terror networks, which have infiltrated their communities and proven their ability to turn the efforts of western security services against them. They are less likely to inform on prospective terrorists and more likely to aid them by inaction.
> 
> The terrorists, in short, are winning the intelligence war, because they have shaped the environment in which intelligence is gathered and traded. But that is how intelligence wars always proceed: spies switch sides and tell their stories because they want to be with the winner. ISIS and al-Qaeda look like winners in the eyes of western Muslim populations after humiliating the security services of the West.
> 
> As a result, western European Muslims fear the terrorists more than they fear the police. The West will remain vulnerable to mass terror attacks until the balance of fear shifts in the other direction.
> 
> As the Prussian army drove into France during the 1870 war with France, Germany’s Chancellor Otto von Bismarck sought the advice of the American military observer, none other than Phil Sheridan, whose cavalry had burned out the farmers of the Shenandoah Valley in the last stages of the conflict. What should Bismarck do about French snipers and saboteurs from villages along the Prussian route of march? Sheridan told Bismarck to burn the villages, leaving the people “with nothing left but their eyes to weep with after the war.” That, and hang the snipers, Sheridan threw in.
> 
> Like Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman, who burned a great swath through Georgia and the Carolinas, Sheridan believed that war is won not just by killing soldiers but by denying them support from a broader civilian population. There’s nothing particularly clever about this insight. One learns from James Lee McDonough’s new biography of Sherman how ordinary the great man was–a competent military officer without a minute’s combat experience before the war began, then an honest but unsuccessful banker. When the war came Sherman came close to a nervous breakdown, trying in vain to convince his masters that they would have to kill 300,000 Southern soldiers and devastate the Confederacy to win the war. He then distinguished himself in combat at Shiloh in 1863 and went on to become the scourge of the Deep South.
> 
> The Union always had more men and more resources; what it lacked was generals with the stomach for the job. That meant not only the grisly war of attrition waged by Grant, another middling commander with absolute resolve, but also retaliation against civilians: When snipers fired on Union soldiers from Tennessee or Kentucky villages, Sherman expelled residents, burned houses, and laid waste to crops. There are lessons here for what we used to call, quaintly, the Global War on Terror.
> 
> Destroying ISIS, al-Qaeda and other Muslim terror groups is not particularly difficult, far less difficult than Sherman or Sheridan’s task during the Civil War. It simply requires doing some disgusting things. Western intelligence doesn’t have to infiltrate terror groups, tap phones, mine social media postings and so forth (although these doubtless are worth doing). Muslim communities in the West will inform on the terrorists. They will tell police when someone has packed up and gone to Syria, and when he has returned. They will tell police who is talking about killing westerners, who has a suspicious amount of cash, who is listening to broadcasts from Salafist preachers.
> 
> They will tell western security services everything they need to know, provided that western security services ask in the right way. I mean in Phil Sheridan’s way. Like the victorious Union generals of the Civil War, the West does not have to be particularly clever. It simply needs to understand what kind of war is is fighting.
> 
> Most Muslims are peaceful people who disapprove of terrorism, but many are not. Opinion polls show a large and consistent minority  of 20% to 40% approves of at least some form of terrorism. Support for ISIS generally is low, but much higher for Hezbollah, Hamas and other terrorist groups. By any reasonable count there are a few hundred million Muslims who in some way approve of terror, although very few of them would take part in terror attacks. But they are the sea in which the sharks can swim unobserved. They may not build bombs, but they will turn a blind eye to terrorists in their midst, especially if those terrorists are relations. They also fear retaliation from the terrorists if they inform.
> 
> The way to win the war is to frighten the larger community of Muslims who passively support terror by action or inaction–frighten them so badly that they will inform on family members. Frightening the larger Muslim population in the West does not require a great deal of effort: a few thousand deportations would do. Western intelligence services do not even have to deport the right people; the wrong people know who they are, and so do many of their neighbors. The ensuing conversation is an easy one to have. “I understand that your nephew is due for deportation, Hussein, and I believe you when you tell me that he has done nothing wrong. I might be able to help you. But you have to help me. Give me something I can use–and don’t waste my time by making things up, or I swear that I’ll deport you, too. If you don’t have any information, then find out who does.”
> 
> This approach to quashing insurgency has worked numerous times in the past. It is not characteristic of peacetime life in western democracies, to be sure, but neither was Phil Sheridan’s ride through the Shenandoah. We prefer to think about winning hearts and minds. Winning the hearts and minds of a people, though, isn’t difficult once they fear you.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Bomb blast being reported in downtown Manila, must be those *Jehovah's* again.


Hey, they ARE considered extremists in Russia ....


----------



## Journeyman

Thucydides said:
			
		

> It is not characteristic of peacetime life in western democracies....


For good reason.

:not-again:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Reprise on how to "turn" the population to our side. Certainly nothing we have tried to date seems to have worked:
> 
> https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/06/03/counter-terror-lessons-from-americas-civil-war/



Yes, lets apply the violence associated with a total war that killed nearly a million people to incidents that barely register on the richter scale.  The authors thesis is phenomenally stupid.  

This article also ignores the fact that Western Governments have been far more successful at terrorizing Muslims than any Islamic Fundamentalist could ever hope to be.

Religion is always a presence in conflict; however, it isn't the root cause.  That title is reserved exclusively for money and power.  

Take the military blinders off and have a look at the shit we do in the World, everyone has blood on their hands.  

The best we can do is stop the blind hatred, treat everyone with the respect and dignity they deserve.

Nah lets go put the torches to the entire city of Brampton, colloquially known as "Brown Town" by certain folks in the GTA.  Meanwhile, we will suck the tit of a Saudi Prince to save a nickel at the pumps.

The amount of holier than thou, self-absorbed monologue I see and hear everyday disgusts me.  

Here is an idea, next time you see a Muslim walking down the street say hello to them, buy them a cup of coffee, heck maybe even spend time getting to know one, you might be surprised to find out they are actually good people.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in Australia earlier this week while we were all watching London (all links to various Aussie media) ...

_*"Brighton hostage-taker 'had faced court over terror plot' "*_
_*"Brighton siege gunman Yacqub Khayre not on anti-terror cops' radar despite extensive criminal history"*_
_*"Melbourne terrorist Yacqub Khayre killed an innocent man with a sawn-off shotgun, tampered with his GPS ankle bracelet, and shot three police officers before dying in a hail of bullets ..."*_
_*" 'An act of terrorism': Man responsible for Brighton siege was being investigated over terror links"*_
_*"Melbourne terrorist siege - what we know"*_
More via Google News here.

Meanwhile, in a story associated with the bad guy highlighted above, a win for the good guys ...
_*"An audacious plot by Islamic extremists for a massive terrorist suicide attack at the Holsworthy Barracks was foiled by a massive surveillance operation by police in 2009.*  Investigators at the time believed that had the plot to shoot as many people as possible at one of Australia's biggest army bases succeeded it would have been the worst-ever terrorist attack on home soil.  They managed to thwart the deadly plan for a shooting rampage at the barracks in Sydney's southwest, where thousands of army troops and a major anti-terrorist unit was based, after a lengthy surveillance campaign led to multiple arrests after raids in Melbourne in August 2009.  Yacqub Khayre was one of five men who stood trial in 2010 over the plot but he and one of his co-accused, Abdirahman Ahmed, were acquitted by the Victorian Supreme Court ..."_


----------



## Kat Stevens

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, in Australia earlier this week while we were all watching London (all links to various Aussie media) ...
> 
> _*"Brighton hostage-taker 'had faced court over terror plot' "*_
> _*"Brighton siege gunman Yacqub Khayre not on anti-terror cops' radar despite extensive criminal history"*_
> _*"Melbourne terrorist Yacqub Khayre killed an innocent man with a sawn-off shotgun, tampered with his GPS ankle bracelet, and shot three police officers before dying in a hail of bullets ..."*_
> _*" 'An act of terrorism': Man responsible for Brighton siege was being investigated over terror links"*_
> _*"Melbourne terrorist siege - what we know"*_
> More via Google News here.
> 
> Meanwhile, in a story associated with the bad guy highlighted above, a win for the good guys ...
> _*"An audacious plot by Islamic extremists for a massive terrorist suicide attack at the Holsworthy Barracks was foiled by a massive surveillance operation by police in 2009.*  Investigators at the time believed that had the plot to shoot as many people as possible at one of Australia's biggest army bases succeeded it would have been the worst-ever terrorist attack on home soil.  They managed to thwart the deadly plan for a shooting rampage at the barracks in Sydney's southwest, where thousands of army troops and a major anti-terrorist unit was based, after a lengthy surveillance campaign led to multiple arrests after raids in Melbourne in August 2009.  Yacqub Khayre was one of five men who stood trial in 2010 over the plot but he and one of his co-accused, Abdirahman Ahmed, were acquitted by the Victorian Supreme Court ..."_




Fake news, guns aren't allowed in Australia.


----------



## The Bread Guy

NJ DHS:  ISIL & AQ's been pushing simple attacks on crowds lately ...


> Since the beginning of May, al-Qa’ida, as well as its affiliate al-Qa’ida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), and ISIS have disseminated new propaganda, encouraging homegrown violent extremists (HVEs) to target large gatherings and outdoor events in the United States during the summer months.
> 
> In an audio statement released on May 13, Hamza bin Ladin—a son of deceased al-Qa’ida leader Usama bin Ladin—directed followers to AQAP’s English-language magazine, Inspire, which offers tactical guidance to sympathizers, such as choosing low security targets and case studies on past attacks. Hamza also encouraged sympathizers to use “patience” and to “take [the] lead in inflicting losses.”
> On May 6, AQAP leader Qasim al-Rimi released the group’s first Inspire Address, instructing HVEs in the United States to carry out “easy and simple attacks.” Rimi also encouraged sympathizers to act “the same as our brother Omar Mateen did, he took an AK47 and headed towards their gathering,” referring to the Orlando shooting in June 2016.
> On May 4, ISIS published the ninth edition of its English-language online magazine, Rumiyah, advising followers to choose “ideal target locations,” which include movie theaters, restaurants, concert halls, and public swimming pools
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

U.N.'s latest take:  _*"Despite pressure and losses, ISIL remains potent threat, UN political chief warns Security Council"*_


> After losing control on population centres and declining financial strength, the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL/Da'esh) terrorist group is more focused than ever before on “enabling and inspiring” attacks outside of conflict zones, the top United Nations political official said today.
> 
> “The threat from ISIL has been intensified by its use of the Internet and social media to disseminate propaganda online to a wide international audience,” Jeffrey Feltman, the UN Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs, told a Security Council meeting on threats to international peace and security caused by terrorist acts.
> 
> “Although the volume of such messages has declined in the past 16 months, the threat persists as supporters outside Syria and Iraq collect and re-distribute this propaganda,” he added.
> 
> In Europe, for example, ISIL has used its online presence to encourage supporters to mount attacks in their countries of residence. “This has led to multiple attacks, including in Belgium, France, Germany, the Russian Federation, Sweden, Turkey, and the United Kingdom,” noted Mr. Feltman, adding that while some of those extremists had been labelled “lone actors,” investigations demonstrate that the perpetrators often received support or resources from facilitators and, in a number of cases, were in direct contact with ISIL enablers.
> 
> He also noted a decrease in the flow of foreign terrorist fighters and in the overall number of ISIL fighters during the last 16 months but returnees and the relocation of fighters from the conflict zones to other regions now present a considerable – and an increasingly transnational – threat to international security.
> 
> At same time, Mr. Feltman also warned that ISIL continues to fund affiliates, while urging them to become more self-sufficient and proactive in developing internal revenue streams ...


More @ link, in meeting summary & attached report


----------



## The Bread Guy

Mo' bad guys for the U.S.'s bad guy list ...


> The Department of State has designated Mohammad Shafi Armar, Oussama Ahmad Atar, and Mohammed Isa Yousif Saqar Al Binali as Specially Designated Global Terrorists (SDGTs) under Section 1(b) of Executive Order (E.O.) 13224, which imposes sanctions on foreign persons determined to have committed, or pose a significant risk of committing, acts of terrorism that threaten the security of U.S. nationals, or the national security, foreign policy, or economy of the United States. As a consequence of these designations, U.S. persons are generally prohibited from engaging in transactions or dealings with Armar, Atar, and Binali, and all of their property and interests in property subject to United States jurisdiction is blocked.
> 
> Mohammad Shafi Armar is a leader and head recruiter in India for the Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO) and Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) group, ISIS. He has cultivated a group of dozens of ISIS sympathizers who are involved in terrorist activities across India, such as plotting attacks, procuring weapons, and identifying locations for terrorist training camps.
> 
> Oussama Ahmad Atar is a senior leader of ISIS’s external operations efforts and has established a network to carry out attacks in Europe. He was a leading coordinator of the November 2015 Paris attacks and March 2016 attacks in Brussels. The Belgian-Moroccan national was responsible for recruiting, training, and sending at least some of the individuals to Paris to launch the November 2015 attacks, which killed and injured hundreds, including Americans. He also recruited and mentored two of the bombers involved in the March 2016 Brussels attacks that killed 32 and left many more wounded.
> 
> Mohammed Isa Yousif Saqar Al Binali is a senior member of ISIS. Binali departed Bahrain to join the terrorist group in 2014 and has since appeared in multiple ISIS propaganda videos calling on Bahrainis, specifically members of Bahrain’s security forces, to join ISIS ...


... with a bit more granular detail from the Treasury Department here:


> The following individuals have been added to OFAC's SDN List:
> 
> AL BINALI, Mohammed Isa Yousif Saqar (a.k.a. AL-BINALI, Mohamed Isa; a.k.a. ALBINALI, Mohammad Isa; a.k.a. AL-BINALI, Mohammed; a.k.a. AL-BINALI, Mohammed Isa; a.k.a. "Abu Al Silmi"; a.k.a. "Abu Isa Al Salmi"; a.k.a. "Abu Issa Al-Selmy"); DOB 09 Mar 1991; POB Manama, Bahrain; nationality Bahrain; Gender Male (individual) [SDGT].
> 
> AL-KUBAYSI, 'Umar (a.k.a. AL-KUBAYSI ARHAYM, Umar Mahmud; a.k.a. AL-KUBAYSI, Umar Mahmud Rahim; a.k.a. AL-QUBAYSI, Umar Mahmud Rahim; a.k.a. ARHAYM, 'Umar Mahmud; a.k.a. RAHIM, 'Umar Mahmud), al-Qaim, al-Anbar Province, Iraq; DOB 01 Jan 1967; nationality Iraq; Gender Male (individual) [SDGT] (Linked To: ISLAMIC STATE OF IRAQ AND THE LEVANT).
> 
> ARMAR, Mohammad Shafi (a.k.a. ARMAR, Mohammed Shafi; a.k.a. ARMAR, Safi; a.k.a. ARMAR, Shafi; a.k.a. "Anjan Bhai"; a.k.a. "Chote Maula"; a.k.a. "Yousouf al-Hindi"; a.k.a. "Yousuf-Al Hindi"; a.k.a. "Yusuf al-Hindi"), Syria; DOB 1989 to 1991; POB Bhatkal, Karnataka, India; Gender Male (individual) [SDGT].
> 
> ATAR, Oussama Ahmad (a.k.a. ATAR, Oussama; a.k.a. ATAR, Usama; a.k.a. ATTAR, Usama), Raqqa, Syria; DOB 1983 to 1985; POB Belgium; nationality Belgium; alt. nationality Morocco; Gender Male (individual) [SDGT] ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Here in Canada ...


> A 29-year-old Quebec man has been found guilty of attempting to leave Canada to commit terrorist acts.
> 
> Ismael Habib is the first adult tried under a section of Canada's Anti-terrorism Act enacted by the former Stephen Harper government in 2013.
> 
> During the ​trial, it was revealed that Habib told an undercover RCMP officer posing as a crime boss peddling fake passports that it was his "duty" to fight jihad alongside ISIS in Syria.
> 
> He also confessed to whipping a prisoner on a 2013 trip to Syria. Those confessions were taped by RCMP officers.
> 
> In a decision read out Monday afternoon in Quebec Court, Judge Serge Délisle questioned Habib's testimony that he had left Canada in 2013 seeking to be with his family.
> 
> Délisle said that was inconsistent with how he went online looking for girlfriend ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Some more Allah-ackbaring. Police officer stabbed in the back and neck.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40360428


----------



## Kat Stevens

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Some more Allah-ackbaring. Police officer stabbed in the back and neck.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40360428



The thing I don't get is, if Allah is so Akbar, why does he need these numpties to do his dirty work? I mean, the Judeo-Christian version took responsibility for the job with the great flood, with an almost 100% success rate. If I was all Akbar, I think I'd rather deploy my own Interdimensional Ballistic Lightning Bolts than entrust the job to a bunch of mental defectives.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Some more Allah-ackbaring. Police officer stabbed in the back and neck.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40360428


Latest from the FBI ...


> *FBI Statement on Incident at Flint's Bishop International Airport*
> 
> This morning, law enforcement officers from a number of organizations, including the FBI’s office in Flint, Michigan, responded to Flint’s Bishop International Airport after receiving the report of a stabbing of an airport police officer who is presently considered to be in stable condition.
> 
> The suspect was taken into custody at the airport and is currently being questioned by law enforcement officers.
> 
> The FBI, with our local, state, and federal law enforcement partners, is jointly investigating this incident to determine the nature and motive for the attack. We are aware of reports that the attacker made statements immediately prior to or while attacking the officer, but it is too early to determine the nature of these alleged statements or whether or not this was an act of terrorism.
> 
> Based on the information that we have at this time, we believe this to be an isolated incident. We currently have no specific, credible information that there is a threat to the Flint community.
> 
> If you have any information about this incident, please call the FBI’s Detroit Field Office at (313) 965-2323 or submit information at tips.fbi.gov.


... and NBC News:


> An officer for Bishop International Airport was stabbed Wednesday in a possible terror-related incident in Flint, Michigan, sources told NBC News.
> 
> The attacker allegedly shouted "Allahu akbar" before stabbing Lieutenant Jeff Neville, who was bleeding from the neck, sources and witnesses at Bishop International Airport said.
> 
> Neville is a member of the airport's Department of Public Safety and a retired Genesee County Sheriff’s Department lieutenant.
> 
> Law enforcement officials said the suspect is from Quebec and has a Canadian passport ...


Prepare the "the 9-11 guys didn't come in via Canada" disclaimer ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

I called the Ackbarring, "spouting gibberish"  to my wife.  She explained that if you say it 3 times right before you snuff it, you get into Paradise.  Goes to explain all the gibbering in any of their videos where it seems to be a contest on who can say it the most and fastest...


----------



## Kat Stevens

FBI Statement on Incident at Flint's Bishop International Airport

This morning, law enforcement officers from a number of organizations, including the FBI’s office in Flint, Michigan, responded to Flint’s Bishop International Airport after receiving the report of a stabbing of an airport police officer who is presently considered to be in stable condition.

The suspect was taken into custody at the airport and is currently being questioned by law enforcement officers.

The FBI, with our local, state, and federal law enforcement partners, is jointly investigating this incident to determine the nature and motive for the attack. We are aware of reports that the attacker made statements immediately prior to or while attacking the officer, but it is too early to determine the nature of these alleged statements or whether or not this was an act of terrorism.

Based on the information that we have at this time, we believe this to be an isolated incident. We currently have no specific, credible information that there is a threat to the Flint community.

If you have any information about this incident, please call the FBI’s Detroit Field Office at (313) 965-2323 or submit information at tips.fbi.gov.

It must be an isolated incident. If you wanted to cause mass casualties in Flint, you'd mess with the water supply. Oh, wait.


----------



## Rifleman62

US media is reporting that the guy entered the USA legally from Canada:

CNN _ 





> The suspect, Amor Ftouhi, a 50-year-old native of Canada, ......


FOX - 





> The Canadian citizen was motivated to come to the airport and conduct this act of violence out of a "hated of the United States," according to FBI Special Agent Gelios. He legally entered the U.S. at Lake Champlain in New York on June 16, and then made his way to Flint, according to Gelios.


----------



## Jarnhamar

More Allah-ackbaring but with a happy ending. 
Dummy tries to blow himself up at an airport in Brussels (aledgedly targeting soldiers) but just turns himself into a flaming marshmallow. 

https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/brussels-bomber-immigrant/


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> More Allah-ackbaring but with a happy ending.
> Dummy tries to blow himself up at an airport in Brussels (aledgedly targeting soldiers) but just turns himself into a flaming marshmallow.
> 
> https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/brussels-bomber-immigrant/


Own goal!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> US media is reporting that the guy entered the USA legally from Canada:
> 
> CNN _
> 
> 
> 
> The suspect, Amor Ftouhi, a 50-year-old native of Canada, ......
> 
> 
> 
> FOX -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian citizen was motivated to come to the airport and conduct this act of violence out of a "hated of the United States," according to FBI Special Agent Gelios. He legally entered the U.S. at Lake Champlain in New York on June 16, and then made his way to Flint, according to Gelios.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

... with more initial details in the attached Complaint ... (source)


----------



## Brad Sallows

>The FBI, with our local, state, and federal law enforcement partners, is jointly investigating this incident to determine the nature and motive for the attack. 

I suppose sometimes it takes more than 8 minutes.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> More Allah-ackbaring but with a happy ending.
> Dummy tries to blow himself up at an airport in Brussels (aledgedly targeting soldiers) but just turns himself into a flaming marshmallow.
> 
> https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/06/brussels-bomber-immigrant/



The Darwin is strong with this one...


----------



## Lex Justitia

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> I hope charges come swiftly and the "leadership" of that localities religious institution is removed.




Unfortunately, I don't suspect dethroning 'preachers' will happen any time soon for one reason. The overwhelming issue is that in Islam there is no central authority (akin to the Vatican for Catholics) that regulates the dissemination of Islamic scripture; there are a number of competing—all of which incessantly fight for influence—'schools' of Islamic jurisprudence, and they either slightly or starkly vary in their takes on the meaning of scripture. Some are Maliki, Jafari, Ibadi, Hanbali; Hanbali in particular includes—although some reject this—Wahhabism (the most extreme doctrine, resulting in distortions of jihadism, tied to Saudi Arabia; some conspiracy theories insist that Wahhabism was invented within the Hanbali in the early 20th century by architects of Zionism seeking to weaken support for Palestinians, but—although Wahhabism is a notable divergence from work of early Hanbalites—these theories are largely baseless).

The lack of a central authority presents a problem because, then, preachers who preach distorted and fundamentally-incompatible interpretations of 'jihad', and expressly call for violence and terror rather than peaceful coexistence, face no risk of being punished or excommunicated (unlike the Vatican, which can excommunicate Catholic priests that refuse to faithfully abide by accepted interpretations of the New Testament in their sermons). So, the net result is that there are a range of preachers across the Islamic world who give sermons of varying degrees—anything from generosity, tolerance and coexistence to violent and anti-West jihad; and there is no methodical and consistent means of challenging their 'authority' within the religion itself; only the state can do this, but doing so in the West is tricky and may cause alienation. 

In light of recent attacks, I think a number of remedies are in order:

<1>  Sensationalist media or tabloid papers, such as the Sun Media in Canada and the Daily Mail in the UK, need to quit catering to their readers' vulnerabilities, particularly evoking widespread fear and stoking hatred with their publications. That's a haphazard way to inform the public in their quest for solutions. I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would support responses that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure have recalled, has been attempted before, regrettably). Internment or deportation would obviously be effective in the short term; but they will actually only deepen the alienation and will turn out to be more destructive. Ultimately, the scale of destruction in the aftermath could amount to ethnic cleansing. I would not call this out of the question because I have noticed that there is, at least online, a lot of nihilism and regression back to primitive, survivalist, responses to these perceived threats; the evolutionary adaption that allowed humans to be hypersocial and gave them the gift of reasoning—i.e. the neocortex or outer-most layer of the brain—is being bypassed with these responses. It's regrettable, but very human. These are the vulnerabilities of readers I am speaking of; to be clear, this first recommendation is for sensationalist media to guard against them when they are composing their writing.

<2> I think tackling online radicalization, as the UK's embattled PM, Theresa May, briefly remarked, is a step in the right direction (despite the objections that may come from net neutrality advocates), but I don't think an online 'campaign' against radicalization goes far enough. The root cause of these heinous crimes is marginalization and alienation. It all begins with marginalization and alienation. There needs to be local, community-based, support programs and social initiatives to prevent marginalization; these need to come from both government and faith communities, and the government programs certainly need to include mental health.

<3>  One particular remedy falls on the Muslim community. Muslims need to stop attending sermons and establishments run by preachers who preach these distorted versions or far-fetched interpretations. Why this is not happening sooner, I have yet to grasp. I imagine it has to do with laziness and culturally-ingrained lack of political enthusiasm from various North African and Middle Eastern communities. Sooner or later, I figure, they will get moving.

<4>  Finally, non-Muslims really need to try to resist the urge to generalize. They need to be reminded that terrorism is not limited to Islam and hasn't suddenly appeared in the 21st Century out of a void. It has been around for a very long time, as University of Chicago professor Robert Pape pointed out, and in various political and religious contexts. There are Buddhists groups who engaged in terrorism for religious causes. There is the present-day _PKK_ in Turkey; France's right-wing _La Cagoule_ at the outset and during WWII; and Canada's own, now-defunct, _FLQ_; who all used violence towards political ends—the definition of terrorism. It is inconceivable for 1.3 billion to be held accountable for the actions of a fraction of 'bad apples.' Much in the same way, Catholics are not violent and oppressive, or blameworthy, for the bombings by IRA militants and other religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Protestant unionists; and, further, Protestants are not accountable for the religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Catholics, perpetrated by the Ulster Defense Association militants who are Protestant; nor are Catholics accountable for the same attacks, and assassination of English royal and cousin to Queen Elizabeth II, namely, Lord Mountbatten, perpetrated by the IRA militants. Note that they are politically-motivated because unionists are a political group (they support the preservation of the union of Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales) and religiously motivated because Protestants are a sect and oppose the other sect, Catholics, who account for the opposing political movement—Irish Republicanism (the separation of Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom in favor of a united Irish republic).

Interestingly, at one point in ancient history (around 5-600 AD), there was a school of _Murjites_ (or 'the Postponers'), which was the most lenient school. As you may have imagined from their name, the _Murjites_ believed in postponing any sort of judgment against a person until his/her end of life, when s/he comes before God in the afterlife (N.B.: I am just recalling what they believed; I don't necessarily share those beliefs). Their crux of their teachings is that there is only one judge of a person's deeds or misdeeds, and that judge is God; no human being can take God's role. _Murjites_, thus, would oppose labeling anyone a 'heretic' and oppose present-day Sharia courts that routinely pass judgment and dole out punishments against convicted 'heretics;' they would oppose violent Jihad because it is, by its nature, judgmental; in essence, they would oppose any act that harms a person in response to their beliefs because it would require judgment. Unfortunately, their influence quickly dwindled when, in later periods (by as early as 8-900 AD, I think), harsher and competing schools gained influence and deemed the _Murjites_, and their followers, 'heretics' and had the lot of them executed (ironically, in doing so, adherents of those opposing schools passed judgment against the _Murjites_ and inflicted punishment). Apart from deferring judgment, _Murjites_ also believed that any adherent to the faith who began taking steps to carry out a grave sin, such as murder, relinquished his/her status as an adherent.

*A disclosure: I am of Muslim heritage and was raised by very lenient Muslim parents; but I identify as an agnostic and don't practice.*


----------



## Lex Justitia

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Reprise on how to "turn" the population to our side. Certainly nothing we have tried to date seems to have worked:
> 
> https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/06/03/counter-terror-lessons-from-americas-civil-war/



It concerns me that you've cited this dangerous diatribe written by Goldman. He's recalling history for solutions to complex problems and relying on brutes like Phil Sheridan; Sheridan, by all accounts, is brute who subscribes to the primitive view that might makes right. I can find many contemporaries like him: the infamous Donald J. Trump, for one; another is recently-elected GOP congressman Greg Gianforte, who, instead of skillfully navigating difficult questions from journalists as Pierre Elliot Trudeau was known for (_par exemple_), he physically assaults them and goes on a rant about their tough questions. Trudeau (Sr.) was an admirable statesman; Gianforte is a brute who represents maladapted aggression.

Goldman should be ashamed for advocating brutish and blatantly unlawful tactics. He should be ashamed for recalling and praising tactics by Sheridan, whose strategy to deal with Confederacy snipers would now constitute serious crimes prosecutable under the Rome Statute. Did Goldman forget that pillaging is a war crime, and prosecutable, during wartime—it would be unconscionable to venture that route during peacetime. He should be particularly ashamed for giving the appearance that alienating swaths of peaceful Muslims with denigrating and inhumane tactics that, he thinks, is the silver bullet to our pressing problems, just because deranged Phil Sheridan succeeded in his time; on the contrary, it will—with scant doubt—contribute to the very problem of radicalization, rather than address it. It seems the awakening of the human conscience after the Holocaust has not benefitted him, for he is calling us to regress to Sheridan's level; Sheridan probably knew no bounds and would probably regress further to primordial, medieval pre-Enlightenment and cruelty. 

His essay distilled, Goldman seems to think it's entirely reasonable and proper for a teacher to penalize the entire class for the lone thief who refuses to disclose himself and the few classmates who may know of him; there's something profoundly cruel about punishing bystanders, after accusing them of harboring or facilitating the perpetrator, to find the concealed hoodlum among them. I am gobsmacked by his audacity to pen that dangerous idea; I am also concerned that a member of our venerated military cited it rather approvingly.


----------



## Lightguns

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I don't suspect dethroning 'preachers' will happen any time soon for one reason. The overwhelming issue is that in Islam there is no central authority (akin to the Vatican for Catholics) that regulates the dissemination of Islamic scripture; there are a number of competing—all of which incessantly fight for influence—'schools' of Islamic jurisprudence, and they either slightly or starkly vary in their takes on the meaning of scripture. Some are Maliki, Jafari, Ibadi, Hanbali; Hanbali in particular includes—although some reject this—Wahhabism (the most extreme doctrine, resulting in distortions of jihadism, tied to Saudi Arabia; some conspiracy theories insist that Wahhabism was invented within the Hanbali in the early 20th century by architects of Zionism seeking to weaken support for Palestinians, but—although Wahhabism is a notable divergence from work of early Hanbalites—these theories are largely baseless).
> 
> The lack of a central authority presents a problem because, then, preachers who preach distorted and fundamentally-incompatible interpretations of 'jihad', and expressly call for violence and terror rather than peaceful coexistence, face no risk of being punished or excommunicated (unlike the Vatican, which can excommunicate Catholic priests that refuse to faithfully abide by accepted interpretations of the New Testament in their sermons). So, the net result is that there are a range of preachers across the Islamic world who give sermons of varying degrees—anything from generosity, tolerance and coexistence to violent and anti-West jihad; and there is no methodical and consistent means of challenging their 'authority' within the religion itself; only the state can do this, but doing so in the West is tricky and may cause alienation.
> 
> In light of recent attacks, I think a number of remedies are in order:
> 
> <1>  Sensationalist media or tabloid papers, such as the Sun Media in Canada and the Daily Mail in the UK, need to quit catering to their readers' vulnerabilities, particularly evoking widespread fear and stoking hatred with their publications. That's a haphazard way to inform the public in their quest for solutions. I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would solutions that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure your call, has been attempted before, regrettably). Internment or deportation would obviously be effective in the short term; but they will actually only deepen the alienation and turn out to be more destructive. Ultimately, the scale of destruction in the aftermath could amount to ethnic cleansing. I would not call this out of the question because I have noticed that there is, at least online, a lot of nihilism and regression back to primitive, survivalist, responses to these perceived threats; the evolutionary adaption that allowed humans to be hypersocial and gave them the gift of reasoning—i.e. the neocortex or outer-most layer of the brain—is being bypassed with these responses. It's regrettable, but very human.
> 
> <2> I think tackling online radicalization, as the UK's embattled PM, Theresa May, briefly remarked, is a step in the right direction (despite the objections that may come from net neutrality advocates), but I don't think an online 'campaign' against radicalization goes far enough. The root cause of these heinous crimes is marginalization and alienation. It all begins with marginalization and alienation. There needs to be local, community-based, support programs and social initiatives to prevent marginalization; these need to come from both government and faith communities, and the government programs certainly need to include mental health.
> 
> <3>  One particular remedy falls on the Muslim community. Muslims need to stop attending sermons and establishments run by preachers who preach these distorted versions or far-fetched interpretations. Why this is not happening sooner, I have yet to grasp. I imagine it has to do with laziness and culturally-ingrained lack of political enthusiasm from various African and Arab communities. Sooner or later, I figure, they will get moving.
> 
> <4>  Finally, non-Muslims really need to try to resist the urge to generalize. They need to be reminded that terrorism is not limited to Islam and hasn't suddenly appeared in the 21st Century out of a void. It has been around for a very long time, as University of Chicago professor Robert Pape pointed out, and in various political and religious contexts. There are Buddhists groups who engaged in terrorism for religious causes. There is the present-day _PKK_ in Turkey; France's right-wing _La Cagoule_ at the outset and during WWII; and Canada's own, now-defunct, _FLQ_; who all used violence towards political ends—the definition of terrorism. It is inconceivable for 1.3 billion to be held accountable for the actions of a fraction of 'bad apples.' Much in the same way, Catholics are not violent and oppressive, or blameworthy, for the bombings by IRA militants and other religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Protestant unionists; and, further, Protestants are not accountable for the religiously- and politically-motivated attacks against Catholics, perpetrated by the Ulster Defense Association militants who are Protestant; nor are Catholics accountable for the same attacks, and assassination of English royal and cousin to Queen Elizabeth II, namely, Lord Mountbatten, perpetrated by the IRA militants. Note that they are politically-motivated because unionists are a political group (they support the preservation of the union of Northern Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales) and religiously motivated because Protestants are a sect and oppose the other sect, Catholics, who account for Irish Republicanism (separation).
> 
> Interestingly, at one point in ancient history (around 5-600 AD), there was a school of _Murjites_ (or 'the Postponers'), which was the most lenient school. As you may have imagined from their name, the _Murjites_ believed in postponing any sort of judgment against a person until his/her end of life, when s/he comes before God in the afterlife (N.B.: I am just recalling what they believed; I don't necessarily share those beliefs). Their crux of their teachings is that there is only one judge of a person's deeds or misdeeds, and that judge is God; no human being can take God's role. _Murjites_, thus, would oppose labeling anyone a 'heretic' and oppose present-day Sharia courts that routinely pass judgment and dole out punishments against convicted 'heretics;' they would oppose violent Jihad because it is, by its nature, judgmental; in essence, they would oppose any act that harms a person in response to their beliefs because it would require judgment. Unfortunately, their influence quickly dwindled when, in later periods (by as early as 8-900 AD, I think), harsher and competing schools gained influence and deemed the _Murjites_, and their followers, 'heretics' and had the lot of them executed (ironically, in doing so, adherents of those opposing schools passed judgment against the _Murjites_ and inflicted punishment). Apart from deferring judgment, _Murjites_ also believed that any adherent to the faith who began taking steps to carry out a grave sin, such as murder, relinquished his/her status as an adherent.
> 
> *A disclosure: I am of Muslim heritage and was raised by very lenient Muslim parents; but I identify as an agnostic and don't practice.*



So..... Curtail Western freedoms and the problem will go away?  Got ya!  I do not believe that for an instant.  Get rid of the money handlers and the problem will be confined but even then the problem will always be there.  The horse fly is in tent now and it will continue to bite until it is swatted dead or driven out.


----------



## Lex Justitia

Lightguns said:
			
		

> So..... Curtail Western freedoms and the problem will go away?  Got ya!  I do not believe that for an instant.  Get rid of the money handlers and the problem will be confined but even then the problem will always be there.  The horse fly is in tent now and it will continue to bite until it is swatted dead or driven out.



Friend,

 I don't see how you can summarize the five recommendations as curtailing Western freedoms? Only two, arguably, directly implicate freedoms (the first recommendation that sensationalist media self-censor by not explicitly catering to reader vulnerabilities because, in failing to doing so, their catering to vulnerabilities contributes to the problem; and third recommendation that adherents of Islam silence hate-preaching Imams by not giving them an audience--i.e. refusing to attend their sermons). On the second recommendation about the governments combatting online radicalization, net neutrality is not a "Western freedom"; although certain elements of internet usage implicate long-held freedoms such as anonymity, there are competing interests that outweigh maintaining anonymity for the purpose of radicalization.

Everything else I've written there, apart from those recommendations, is just context that well-intentioned and informed individuals need to keep in mind.


----------



## Jarnhamar

People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian. 

The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.


----------



## Lightguns

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian.
> 
> The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.



Get ready for more Toronto Star stories about strip searches at the US border because they are going to react to this latest incident.  So if you are heading stateside make sure you wear clean underwear......


----------



## Lex Justitia

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> People seem uncomfortable to point out the disproportionate number of attacks by Muslims. When some kind of attack IS carried out by a non-muslim there seems to almost be relief from certain circles of our scoeity. Muslim attacks however seem to be happening with such frequency that its no big deal unless there's something new, like the airport stabber being Canadian.
> 
> The whole situation might almost even be a form of entertainment/daily  thing to  post about to some.



I am strongly against generalizing not only because it's a lapse of reason, but also because of the consequences it would have. But I'm not afraid at all to admit any troubling realities that may exist. Unfortunately, I can't agree with your statement simply because it is impossible to know how many attacks occurred, and of their nature, in every corner of the world, in say, the last two decades. There are also innate biases that have prevented an objective assessment of which attacks constitute "terrorism;" that's one reason, among others, why it is difficult to quantify attacks anywhere in a given time period. 

However, I will admit, and I'm not afraid to admit, that *among known attacks that have been widely reported* since the 1980s, a 'disproportionate number', as you say, of them have been perpetrated by Muslims. Even if I admit this, what does this admission achieve? Are *1.3 billion* faith-adherents now accountable for the 50,000 (I'm throwing a liberal estimate) attacks perpetrated by extremists since the 80s? Please. Extremists want you to peddle these half-truths and 'otherize' ordinary members of a society. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy that Daesh and other extremists are waging here, particularly when their perceived/policy enemy refuses to make concessions about the radicalization problem and, in lieu of reasonable concessions, take the easy route of blame and alienating the innocent. The ironies of life are too perplexing sometimes.

The discomfort comes from peddling half-truths or misrepresentations (even if accidental) that have palpable consequences on these communities and, eventually, the communities into which they attempt to integrate. It is not in anyone's national security or personal interest to alienate anyone, for invidious or whatever reasons.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> It concerns me that you've cited this dangerous diatribe written by Goldman. He's recalling history for solutions to complex problems and relying on brutes like Phil Sheridan; Sheridan, by all accounts, is brute who subscribes to the primitive view that might makes right. I can find many contemporaries like him: the infamous Donald J. Trump, for one; another is recently-elected GOP congressman Greg Gianforte, who, instead of skillfully navigating difficult questions from journalists as Pierre Elliot Trudeau was known for (_par exemple_), he physically assaults them and goes on a rant about their tough questions. Trudeau (Sr.) was an admirable statesman; Gianforte is a brute who represents maladapted aggression.
> 
> Goldman should be ashamed for advocating brutish and blatantly unlawful tactics. He should be ashamed for recalling and praising tactics by Sheridan, whose strategy to deal with Confederacy snipers would now constitute serious crimes prosecutable under the Rome Statute. Did Goldman forget that pillaging is a war crime, and prosecutable, during wartime—it would be unconscionable to venture that route during peacetime. He should be particularly ashamed for giving the appearance that alienating swaths of peaceful Muslims with denigrating and inhumane tactics that, he thinks, is the silver bullet to our pressing problems, just because deranged Phil Sheridan succeeded in his time; on the contrary, it will—with scant doubt—contribute to the very problem of radicalization, rather than address it. It seems the awakening of the human conscience after the Holocaust has not benefitted him, for he is calling us to regress to Sheridan's level; Sheridan probably knew no bounds and would probably regress further to primordial, medieval pre-Enlightenment and cruelty.
> 
> His essay distilled, Goldman seems to think it's entirely reasonable and proper for a teacher to penalize the entire class for the lone thief who refuses to disclose himself and the few classmates who may know of him; there's something profoundly cruel about punishing bystanders, after accusing them of harboring or facilitating the perpetrator, to find the concealed hoodlum among them. I am gobsmacked by his audacity to pen that dangerous idea; I am also concerned that a member of our venerated military cited it rather approvingly.



You are making the mistake that many do of judging earlier centuries and events with 21st century eyes.  They were different times, laws beliefs and values.  Not to mention this war was particularly cruel as many wars are and both sides were going for a full court press.  Sometimes it takes a curb stomping to end the fight as was done to both Germany and Japan in 45.

But the real point I wish to make to you is your alarm at the thought of collective punishment for infractions.  I see you're just dipping your toe into the military pool.  Lex,  get used to the concept.  It is used in our institution to reinforce and enforce rules and objectives.   On course, you could find yourself doing collective pushups because someone fucked up, for example.  The privilege of beer at sea was taken away from the navy because of several unrelated incidents ashore.  Collective punishment has been around and used by the military for a very long time.  Where do you think the term decimation comes from and what it meant?  

Sherman was cruel and hard, yes.  I think he's not as bad as others, such as Daesh or other recent examples.  And, no, I'm not advocating Goldman's suggestions.  Nor am I keen on collective punishment either in application as a supervisor or in subjected to, as in the loss of alcohol privileges.  But it is what it is and where it is, as in, in the institution and therefore I accept it as a reality.


----------



## Lex Justitia

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> You are making the mistake that many do of judging earlier centuries and events with 21st century eyes.  They were different times, laws beliefs and values.  Not to mention this war was particularly cruel as many wars are and both sides were going for a full court press.  Sometimes it takes a curb stomping to end the fight as was done to both Germany and Japan in 45.
> 
> But the real point I wish to make to you is your alarm at the thought of collective punishment for infractions.  I see you're just dipping your toe into the military pool.  Lex,  get used to the concept.  It is used in our institution to reinforce and enforce rules and objectives.   On course, you could find yourself doing collective pushups because someone ****ed up, for example.  The privilege of beer at sea was taken away from the navy because of several unrelated incidents ashore.  Collective punishment has been around and used by the military for a very long time.  Where do you think the term decimation comes from and what it meant?
> 
> Sherman was cruel and hard, yes.  I think he's not as bad as others, such as Daesh or other recent examples.  And, no, I'm not advocating Goldman's suggestions.  Nor am I keen on collective punishment either in application as a supervisor or in subjected to, as in the loss of alcohol privileges.  But it is what it is and where it is, as in, in the institution and therefore I accept it as a reality.



I want to start by thanking you for the heads up and refresher on military culture. I did receive an unheeded warning from an acquaintance whose uncle was an officer in the RF. While I can tolerate it in the military, per se; however, applying this to the civilian population will be a regression of 200 years of enlightenment. 

I acknowledge that Sheridan's time was different; hence why I noted that his strategy, while it may have been somewhat acceptable then, would _now_ constitute a prosecutable crime either at wartime or peacetime. The point, indeed, is that in the 150 years that have elapsed since the American Civil War, there was progress with the development of public international law and human rights—most notably, an awakening after the dreadful Holocaust. Perhaps, in the military, I will venture, not much has changed in those 150 years apart from the technology with which wage warfare; the punitive culture, as you have shown me, has not changed; but does mean that a single and probably misgauged (by the general public and lower-ranking military personnel) threat requires a rollback of that awakening in the civilian population—should we now return to the pre-Holocaust slumber? Is it suddenly acceptable to repeat campaigns on par with the Sheridan-style pillaging because of this threat? 

If so, I know of no better example of human frailty!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Lightguns said:
			
		

> strip searches at the US border



You can't threaten me with a good time  ;D




			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> I am strongly against generalizing





https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

Here's some Islamic attacks in* the last 30 days*. Almost 1500 killed, over 1500 injured across 29 countries. 
You'll have to go to the site and read it yourself, I couldn't cut and paste since it exceeded the length limit.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Lex, I too, hope we don't find ourselves in a situation one day where it is total war on the scale of the second world war.  

As for the present plague of fuckheads like Daesh et al, the only ones who can solve this once and for all, is the folks who follow Islam.  They will have to get to a point where enough is enough and stamp it out from within.  Sadly, I don't see this happening in the near future or my children's lifetime.


----------



## Lex Justitia

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> You can't threaten me with a good time  ;D
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30
> 
> Here's some Islamic attacks in* the last 30 days*. Almost 1500 killed, over 1500 injured across 29 countries.
> You'll have to go to the site and read it yourself, I couldn't cut and paste since it exceeded the length limit.



[size=10pt]Another problem that I, regrettably, forgot to point out is misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online. You can see that the aim is to spread disinformation when the site makes unverifiable claims about the veracity of its work; its 'methodology' page is full of pseudoscience on data collection. On the same page, they even write: "These are not incidents of ordinary crime involving nominal Muslims killing for money or vendetta." How do they know? They certainly don't provide primary or even secondary sources (it's literally just a list with date, location, # of casualties, and a 5-word—15-word max.—description of what apparently transpired. Without primary or secondary sources, how do we know the site's administrators are not merely creating fake entries? 

Maybe the reason why reports which appear on the list don't appear in reputable media or sources is actually because the report is entirely fictitious; not because, as the site claims, the reputable media refused to report it for whatever reason, i.e. not being newsworthy. Maybe some reports that appear on the list don't appear in reputable media because they are reports of crime whose motivation cannot be confirmed! Utterly misleading; terrible 'source.'

Please be sensible, my friend. I seriously hope the basis of your views on Islam and radicalization are not premised on that severely lacking database. Never forget that ideologues who have strongly taken up a weak position are willing to spread disinformation to defend that position, and give it a false sense of strength; always try to verify what you read to guard against that.]/size]


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Lex Justitia]

Another problem that I, regrettably, forgot to point out is misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online
[/quote]



Of course, of course. A little researching will probably show most of those entries are fake news stories like the last one they listed.


> 2017.06.22 	Afghanistan 	Lashkargah 	29 	60 	A suicide car bomb outside a bank lays out thirty customers.
> http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/gunmen-open-fire-inside-afghan-mosque-killing-officials-48201433





Or some kind of attack at an airport in Flint, MI they mention? 5th latest entry? What? Sounds like bullshit to me.




Or entry #38


> 2017.06.14 	Somalia 	Mogadishu 	31 killed 	27 injured. 	Five girls are among dozens slaughtered at a restaurant during a attack that began with a suicide bombing, followed by Islamists hunting down victims at an adjacent hotel.
> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/car-bomb-targets-restaurant-somalia-mogadishu-170614173930599.html



Can't find any references to this supposed restaurant attack anywhere.



It's going to take me a while to go through the 164 attacks in the last 30 days and debunk them all so please be patient.


----------



## Lex Justitia

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Of course, of course. A little researching will probably show most of those entries are fake news stories like the last one they listed.
> 
> 
> Or entry #38
> Can't find any references to this supposed restaurant attack anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to take me a while to go through the 164 attacks in the last 30 days and debunk them all so please be patient.



You've picked out conservative handful. That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.


I also need to mention some shortcomings in your reasoning. The database and numbers that you have summed up don't actually demonstrate that a majority of Muslims worldwide are extremist or any more violent that any other religious or ethnic group. The reason is that the database doesn't show the number of perpetrators. For all I know (because, as I have just said, I don't know and can't possibly know from that database), a group of forty Muslims perpetrated all of those attacks in that 30-day period. Using that hypothetical, are you going to tell me that 40 is representative of 1.3 billion?

 Let's make the hypothetical more realistic. Let's assume one natural person perpetrated each of the 164 attacks in that 30-day period (as the database says). Let's assume it has been that way every month since 1990; that's 89 months as of May. 164 (again, a number from your 'source') attacks for 89 months. Basic arithmetic will yield 14,956 attacks since 1990. Assuming one person perpetrated each, that's 14,956 persons who perpetrated terrorism; is 14,956 a fair representation of 1.3 billion?

 Let's make the estimate liberal, let's assume 100 different persons committed each of the 14,956 attacks since 1990—it's a bit of a far-fetched estimate but I'm giving you the benefit—, that leaves us with 1,459,600 persons. Is 1.4 million a fair representation of 1.3 billion? Do you finally see from my perspective? It's a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction that we are looking at, but apparently it is now acceptable to treat them all the same and live in perpetual fear and hunkered-down from the 'other.' A shame we're here, at this point, after centuries of a variety of 'colors' and 'species' of terrorism.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Lex Justitia] That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.[/quote]
I bet not as much as a "pacifist" joining the military concerns me  




> Let's make the hypothetical more realistic. Let's assume one natural person perpetrated each of the 164 attacks in that 30-day period (as the database says). Let's assume it has been that way every month since 1990; that's 89 months as of may. 164 attacks for 89 months. Basic arithmetic will yield 14,956 attacks since 1990. Assuming one person perpetrated each, that's 14,956 persons who perpetrated terrorism; is 14,956 a fair representation of 1.3 billion?
> 
> Let's make the estimate liberal, let's assume 100 different persons committed each of the 14,956 attacks since 1990—it's a bit of a far-fetched estimate but I'm giving you the benefit—, that leaves us with 1,459,600 persons. Is 1.4 million a fair representation of 1.3 billion? Do you finally see from my perspective? It's a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction that we are looking at, but it's apparently it is now acceptable to treat them all the same and live in perpetual fear. A shame we're here, at this point, after centuries of a variety of 'colors' and 'species' of terrorism.[/size][/font]


This is beautiful.  You've proven to me Islam is after all peaceful and the world doesn't have an Islam-inspired problem with increasing acts of terrorism and violence. It's only a fewl bad apples, nothing to worry about. Nothing to see here, move along.


----------



## Lex Justitia

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I bet not as much as a "pacifist" joining the military concerns me



I sense you've said that in jest, but please don't let that concern you; I'd pick up a rifle (after adequate training, needless to say) any day in order to defend you from an immediate threat. But it really does concern me how misconceptions and misgivings on this topic shape your opinion about 1.3 billion people, and it concerns me because, in part, it would probably reflect poorly on the military if such anti-Muslim milieu were publicized; particularly so if it was the result of lousy sources!

I also would appreciate it if you treated my analysis with less irony and an appropriate level of seriousness; especially in light of the difficult and somber climate we're in right now.

Off to get some much-needed rest.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]I sense you've said that in jest, but please don't let that concern you; I'd pick up a rifle (after adequate training, needless to say) any day in order to defend you from an immediate threat.


 
Then I'm sorry but you are not a pacifist thought it's good to hear you say you would defend me. 
I would suggest maybe you're imagining  yourself as some romanticized poet-warrior scholar,  or some such. If you were a pacifist as per the definition the you wouldn't raise a hand to defend me if I was being attacked. 





> But it really does concern me how misconceptions and misgivings on this topic shape your opinion about 1.3 billion people, and it concerns me because, in part, it would probably reflect poorly on the military if such anti-Muslim milieu were publicized; particularly so if it was the result of lousy sources!


Let's test the lousy sources. Name me three news agencies you consider as credible (sorry al Jazeera and abcnews is out) and I'll see if they conve the "bogus" stories on the site I provide.  



> I also would appreciate it if you treated my analysis with less irony and an appropriate level of seriousness; especially in light of the difficult and somber climate we're in right now.


You haven't given me a reason to treat you seriously yet. 

Honestly if you feel like engaging me about Islam please do a site search for jarnhamar+AbdullahD.  You'll find 300 pages of us arguing the points you plan on bringing up. 

Speaking of which... 



> Off to get some much-needed rest.


That sounds an awful lot like how someone else on here who debates Islam signs off  after arguing.... 
Patterns eh


----------



## The Bread Guy

A few more tidbits on the most recent U.S. incident, via Michigan media:


> ... Ftouhi, 50, is a Canadian and Tunisian dual-citizen who came to the United States legally through Lake Champlain, New York, on June 16.
> 
> On Wednesday, Ftouhi showed up at Flint Bishop Airport without a plane ticket and entered the airport, Gelios said.
> 
> "We're trying to develop more as to his timeline and where he went after he entered the United States in Lake Champlain, New York," Gelios said. "We have no information to suggest a wider plot, but it's certainly very early in the investigation. At this time, we view him as a lone wolf." ...


(source)


> ... Wearing an orange Genesee County Jail jumpsuit and spit guard face mask, Amor M. Ftouhi, the man authorities say attacked a police officer at Bishop Airport appeared in Flint U.S. District Court late on Wednesday, June 21, for an initial appearance.
> 
> Before the brief proceedings began, Ftouhi's public defender explained to U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephanie Dawkins Davis that his client's English may be difficult to understand as he primarily speaks Arabic and French.
> 
> A judge granted prosecutors' request to detain Ftouhi in the Genesee County Jail until a detention hearing next week.


(source)


----------



## Kat Stevens

Let me see if I'm getting this right.  You're a proclaimed pacifist, shouldn't you be mortified by any loss of life by violent means? You seem to be putting all the deaths of these innocents into the acceptable losses column because the perpetrators were only a few bad apples, never mind that there is a common denominator through them all. If only .25% of all Muslims are merely indifferent, let alone supportive of this kind of behaviour, that's not a few bad apples, that's a crop blight. Some pretty vigorous pruning is called for.


----------



## Loachman

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> an officer in the RF.




What's an "RF"?



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> a regression of 200 years of enlightenment.




A few who have remained endarkened can wreak a lot of havoc on many who have become too enlightened.

Reality exists between the two states.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]Another problem that I, regrettably, forgot to point out is misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online. You can see that the aim is to spread disinformation when the site makes unverifiable claims about the veracity of its work;



And, of course, the mainstream media never mislead, always get the facts right, don't have bias and agenda, never spread disinformation, and always back up their assertions with verifiable sources.

Not from my several decades of observation.

I read a variety of sources. I find more factual detail in a variety of the online sources that you disparage, actually. Many of them match my own observations very closely.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> Maybe the reason why reports which appear on the list don't appear in reputable media or sources is actually because the report is entirely fictitious; not because, as the site claims, the reputable media refused to report it for whatever reason, i.e. not being newsworthy.




Or because the reports do not fit their agendae. There are many examples of that.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> Please be sensible, my friend. I seriously hope the basis of your views on Islam and radicalization are not premised on that severely lacking database. Never forget that ideologues who have strongly taken up a weak position are willing to spread disinformation to defend that position, and give it a false sense of strength; always try to verify what you read to guard against that.




Don't presume that any of us are working from a single source, and don't presume that ideologues are restricted to one side of any debate.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]You've picked out conservative handful. That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.



Give him time to check some more. I find that a lot of amateur websites do very deep research into subjects that interest them, and many are (to some) surprisingly accurate.

That you defend the mainstream media while dismissing other sources indiscriminately concerns me deeply.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> I also need to mention some shortcomings in your reasoning. The database and numbers that you have summed up don't actually demonstrate that a majority of Muslims worldwide are extremist or any more violent that any other religious or ethnic group.




The trends seem pretty obvious to me. Wherever Islam spreads in the West, violence follows. Those European countries that have refused to accept "migrants" are not seeing the same rise in violent crime that their more enlightened neighbours are presently enjoying.

It doesn't have to be a majority, anyway. The number of true Nazis was relatively small compared to the bulk of the German population of the thirties and forties, but more than enough of the rest went along because they supported enough of the agenda, wanted to be on the winning side for a change, or out of fear.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]I'd pick up a rifle (after adequate training, needless to say) any day in order to defend you from an immediate threat.



I do not think that you would recognize that threat immediately enough.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Loachman] 

The trends seem pretty obvious to me. Wherever Islam spreads in the West, violence follows. Those European countries that have refused to accept "migrants" are not seeing the same rise in violent crime that their more enlightened neighbours are presently enjoying.

[/quote]
Yup. You don't read about many attacks in Poland Austria or Hungary.  Ironically the EU is threatening legal action against them for not accepting their fair share if  migrants. 
Europe is fucked.


----------



## Loachman

Some countries remember - and heed - history better than others.

Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo


----------



## ueo

Altho not terrorism per se, what about the "black" grad ceremony at UofT today? Have not persons of color (not sure of the latest PC term) argued/fought/died for inclusion and equality in white society? Why, then, a separate ceremony beyond the stated "...to get more black students..." Where is all this leading? The partial quote is from an interview with one of the organizers on CBC.


----------



## Journeyman

ueo said:
			
		

> Altho not terrorism per se, what about the "black" grad ceremony at UofT today?


_Per se_ ??  How the hell is this even remotely terrorism, let alone relevant to "Islamic Terrorism in the West"?
    :stars:


----------



## Lex Justitia

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Let me see if I'm getting this right.  You're a proclaimed pacifist, shouldn't you be mortified by any loss of life by violent means? You seem to be putting all the deaths of these innocents into the acceptable losses column because the perpetrators were only a few bad apples, never mind that there is a common denominator through them all. If only .25% of all Muslims are merely indifferent, let alone supportive of this kind of behaviour, that's not a few bad apples, that's a crop blight. Some pretty vigorous pruning is called for.



I'm curious. How would you go about discerning who those .25% who are indifferent, or either tacitly or expressly supportive, are? Also bear in mind that I did not, at any point, take the position that .25% or a 'crop blight' should not concern us and that we should be indifferent to the threat. Not at all. On the contrary, I've laid out recommendations to address them and laid out further recommendations that ensure the ordinary Muslim majorities are not inadvertently alienated by poorly-conceived government policy. (Rather than inadvertently alienating them or using would-be convicts who happen to be Muslim for intel, governments should just allow the community to mobilize their congregations and establishments against radicalization).

The intricacies of the issue need to be appreciated by policymakers and state actors to avoid expanding the 'crop blight.' But to even appreciate this point, one would need to accept that only a fraction of the 1.3 billion suffer from this 'blight.' One who accepts, on the other hand, generalizing will draw up different policy proposals than one who is cognizant of and appreciates realities and instead prefers proportioning to generalizing.

In short, my vehement opposition to generalizing and my demonstrating that generalization is a pervasive response to the problem was by no means an insistence that governments and communities need not act. Remedies are definitely needed; they just need to be carefully tailored around realities.




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> What's an "RF"?



Reserve Force. That's probably not standard usage; sorry for the confusion.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> A few who have remained endarkened can wreak a lot of havoc on many who have become too enlightened.



I don't see how this is a rebuttal. If you're implying that the militants such as Daesh are stuck in pre-Enlightenment, I have never asserted that pre-Enlightenment is not a problem. My comment there was about our response to them; specifically, that we should not regress to Sheridan's level.

I'm intrigued by the expression "too enlightened." What does it mean to be "too enlightened" and what is the standard of measurement? How does one discern that? I hope you're not insisting that Western governments are too enlightened because their response to global terrorism, so far, has been level-headed and meticulously drawn up. An insistence of that kind would be an insult to the lives lost in both world wars defending enlightenment against brutish oppression.




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Reality exists between the two states.
> And, of course, the mainstream media never mislead, always get the facts right, don't have bias and agenda, never spread disinformation, and always back up their assertions with verifiable sources.
> 
> Not from my several decades of observation.



I never made a claim about mainstream media specifically. Your reply is a strawman. The claim was simply that disinformation exists online and it includes misleading reporting--this applies to both mainstream media, even those regarded as reputable sources, and fringe media.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> I read a variety of sources. I find more factual detail in a variety of the online sources that you disparage, actually. Many of them match my own observations very closely.



Can't dispute that; but your statement is also meaningless without context. I can't evaluate the reliability of a source outside of context and a claim. I must point out, though, you've admitted to confirmation bias from your last line.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Or because the reports do not fit their agendae. There are many examples of that.



That's possible too. However, you've missed the challenge I made: First, the language used in thereligionofpeace.com's database (the only 'source' I challenged in my recent discussion here) is problematic because it suggests that there are no other explanations for why the entries are not always reported, other than that reputed sources regarded as the mainstream are unreliable.

Second, it is quite possible that many of those entries are fabricated. The source can easily dispel that contention by supplying primary sources or secondary sources for all of its entries. That it has failed to do this suggests that it wants to insulate its reporting from objective and independent review, or that it has deliberately fabricated some entries. Those are the points I made, and those points concern thereligionofpeace.com, not mainstream media.

Regarding your last line: that's indefensible. Are you able to tap into the thoughts of various editors-in-chief of reputable papers and tell me that they chose not to publish something because it doesn't fit into their agenda? You've made a conjecture that can't be proven unless you were to interrogate, in a legal-style deposition, an editor who makes the call on what is publishable and what isn't. Even if you were somehow able to do that; that'd be one example.




			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Don't presume that any of us are working from a single source, and don't presume that ideologues are restricted to one side of any debate.



I won't make that presumption, but if that's the first 'source' he has cited in his replies to me, I should feel very concerned.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Give him time to check some more. I find that a lot of amateur websites do very deep research into subjects that interest them, and many are (to some) surprisingly accurate.
> 
> That you defend the mainstream media while dismissing other sources indiscriminately concerns me deeply



You have a habit of saying there are a lot of this and a lot of that, but not providing an example. And I submit to you that what may seem to be thorough and dependable research on the surface, or facially, could turn out to be flawed and rife with confirmation bias. The danger with amateur researchers is that they aren't well-versed in avoiding confirmation bias and addressing discrepancies without faulty reasoning. This is why I don't attach value to amateur sources, and neither should any intelligence community. 

I don't know what you mean by the parenthetical "to some." You mean to those who don't know what to look for—flaws like faulty methodology and confirmation bias? Coming from those, a claim that a source is accurate is a worthless claim.

As I said above in this post, I have not made a claim about mainstream media. What "other sources", as you say, have I dismissed? *Jarnhamar cited one 'source'*—namely, thereligionofpeace.com—and I attacked only that 'source.' What the devil are you on about?



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> The trends seem pretty obvious to me. Wherever Islam spreads in the West, violence follows. Those European countries that have refused to accept "migrants" are not seeing the same rise in violent crime that their more enlightened neighbours are presently enjoying.
> 
> It doesn't have to be a majority, anyway. The number of true Nazis was relatively small compared to the bulk of the German population of the thirties and forties, but more than enough of the rest went along because they supported enough of the agenda, wanted to be on the winning side for a change, or out of fear.



There's a problem with your analogy to Nazis. The Third Reich held a number of military and public rallies, where Hilter made speeches to mobilize the Germans behind the Nazi schemes, throughout its existence. Among them were the renowned Nuremberg Rallies held annually for over a decade. While I don't know the extent of the turnout to those rallies relative to the population between 1920 and 1939 (and, ergo, cannot conclude that the Third Reich had the support of the majority of Germans), the point is that the Third Reich held public rallies and Daesh and other militant groups do not hold public rallies. That distinguishing feature, alone, weakens your analogy to the Nazis.

Why does majority disapproval not matter when dealing with Islam? Why isn't the same rationale applied to sectarian terrorism by Catholic militants in the IRA, or Protestant militants in the UDA? The latent bias you have against Islam is showing. There is really no way for you to justify your double standard position. You are either unaware of the various political and religious kinds of terrorism that have transpired in the last century or you want to treat Islam differently for some invidious reason. Pick your poison.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> I do not think that you would recognize that threat immediately enough.



Much like you wouldn't recognize confirmation bias in your lacklustre replies to this pressing problem? Anyways, that's beside the mark. You don't think I'd recognize an immediate threat fast enough to repel it; you'd be surprised, but whatever you say.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> You've picked out conservative handful. That you defend this 'source' concerns me deeply.
> 
> 
> I also need to mention some shortcomings in your reasoning. The database and numbers that you have summed up don't actually demonstrate that a majority of Muslims worldwide are extremist or any more violent that any other religious or ethnic group. The reason is that the database doesn't show the number of perpetrators. For all I know (because, as I have just said, I don't know and can't possibly know from that database), a group of forty Muslims perpetrated all of those attacks in that 30-day period. Using that hypothetical, are you going to tell me that 40 is representative of 1.3 billion?
> 
> Let's make the hypothetical more realistic. Let's assume one natural person perpetrated each of the 164 attacks in that 30-day period (as the database says). Let's assume it has been that way every month since 1990; that's 89 months as of May. 164 (again, a number from your 'source') attacks for 89 months. Basic arithmetic will yield 14,956 attacks since 1990. Assuming one person perpetrated each, that's 14,956 persons who perpetrated terrorism; is 14,956 a fair representation of 1.3 billion?
> 
> Let's make the estimate liberal, let's assume 100 different persons committed each of the 14,956 attacks since 1990—it's a bit of a far-fetched estimate but I'm giving you the benefit—, that leaves us with 1,459,600 persons. Is 1.4 million a fair representation of 1.3 billion? Do you finally see from my perspective? It's a fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction that we are looking at, but apparently it is now acceptable to treat them all the same and live in perpetual fear and hunkered-down from the 'other.' A shame we're here, at this point, after centuries of a variety of 'colors' and 'species' of terrorism.



There's an air of aristocratic condemnation, condescension and a certain odour of snooty, dismissive attitude in the last little bit of postings. If a person wishes to carry on like Charles Winchester in MASH, remember, you're not in Boston anymore Toto. Respect the membership and quit talking down your nose at everyone. Nobody is impressed.


----------



## Lex Justitia

I don't know if that was a thinly-veiled threat directed at me for daring to vary from pack; or a warning to others not to oppose the prevailing misconceptions, but it's lamentable. Just as it is to see some approvingly cite George Orwell's work while unwittingly furnishing many of the vices against which it warned.

I didn't intend any disrespect anyhow. As psychiatrist-researchers Jack Gorman and Sarah Gorman have shown, it's normal to have a feel-good response (release of dopamine; the neurotransmitter responsible for pleasure) when reading things that support long-held beliefs (the well-studied confirmation bias phenomena), but feel threatened and double-down on false assertions when those assertions are challenged. All I tried to do was to dismantle misconceptions on this topic; not to threaten or disrespect any member.


It matters to me how people process information and shape their beliefs, because beliefs form the will to create policy and because PR is important to the military. If there are prevailing misconceptions that create an atmosphere of 'Muslim-bashing' in the military; I'd say there is a serious PR lapse.


----------



## Lex Justitia

Loachman said:
			
		

> Some countries remember - and heed - history better than others.
> 
> Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo




The 'Center for the Study of Political Islam' is a one-man show for a reason. Bear in mind that his Ph.D. is in physics and mathematics; he's not exactly an authority on Islam.

Disclaimer: I don't intend disrespect.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Lex Justina] 

You have a habit of saying there are a lot of this and a lot of that

[/quote]
Posting on the site for two days and already familiar with members habits? 
Hummm


----------



## Loachman

Part I



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]I don't see how this is a rebuttal. If you're implying that the militants such as Daesh are stuck in pre-Enlightenment, I have never asserted that pre-Enlightenment is not a problem. My comment there was about our response to them; specifically, that we should not regress to Sheridan's level.




We go to great lengths to avoid innocent, civilian casualties in today's conflicts, unlike our adversaries who intentionally cause them. Our efforts to preserve and protect are noble and correct, especially given that our purpose in fighting where we have been in the last few years is to relieve civilians of their suffering; they are not our enemy. I have stopped and delayed attacks where I could not be certain that innocent people would not be harmed.

One of the results that we have seen is media outrage whenever civilian casualties do occur, despite our best efforts. Too many people fail to understand the nature of war. It is inevitable that civilian casualties will occur. Civilian casualty rates, even among friendly populations as we liberated them (Second World War), were many, many times higher, yet were considered to be acceptable at the time and given the end result. German cities were struck repeatedly, as industries, including the human component, were targeted. Effort was also made to break the will of the German people to continue the fight.

When civilian populations harbour insurgents/terrorists, appropriate effort must be made to separate the two elements. Should the level of support for violence (either directly committing it, or aiding those who do) within a particular community rise to an unacceptable point, what does one do? Wall off that community to insulate it from the larger population under attack, or go in and clean it out? How does one differentiate between perpetrators, supporters, and those who want nothing to do with them (as there is no distinguishing dress, language, culture, or religion between the three), and what does one do with each segment?

The standard practice for dealing with prisoners of war has been to intern them for the duration of the conflict, then release them back to their home countries. Ideological/religious conflicts are not as clear-cut as conventional wars. When does such a conflict end? When can one safely release prisoners, whose core beliefs and motivations will remain as powerful as ever for the rest of their lives? To where would one release them, if they were born in the country which they have attacked?

Hard choices may have to be made at some point, if the level of infiltration and subsequent violence continue to increase. Host populations will eventually reach their breaking point and be faced with either surrender or bloody counterattack. You would be surprised at how quickly "enlightened" societies can descend into darkness when survival - "them or us" - is at stake. Human nature has not really changed over many millennia.

And sometimes an enemy has to be absolutely crushed.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]I'm intrigued by the expression "too enlightened." What does it mean to be "too enlightened" and what is the standard of measurement? How does one discern that?




There was once a monastery inhabited by very enlightened monks on the island of Lindisfarne. One day, in 793, they received some visitors in the form of Vikings. Their enlightenment did not help them very much.

Enlightened societies shun violence. That is not necessarily a bad thing - life should indeed be nonviolent - but reality cannot be ignored. A society that cannot deal with the darkness that still exists will crumble in the face of that darkness when the two eventually meet. A more vigorous society, with a willingness to use violence, will eventually overcome a complacent, soft, "enlightened" one. Even the mighty Roman empire succumbed.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]I hope you're not insisting that Western governments are too enlightened because their response to global terrorism, so far, has been level-headed and meticulously drawn up.




Yes, many Westerners are too "enlightened". The vast majority have led relatively pampered lives, know nothing of conflict, and have never had to face, or even consider, evil. Western response has generally been weak and foolish. Angela Merkel is the face of that.

Failure to deal effectively with sponsors of terror is rampant.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]An insistence of that kind would be an insult to the lives lost in both world wars defending enlightenment against brutish oppression.




How?

And what do you know about defending anything, and what those people would or would not have considered "insulting"?

I was born in England eleven years after the end of the Second World War, in the southeast of Greater London. Memories were still very fresh, and signs of the war were still evident. I played in bunkers. DUKW rides were popular at beaches. The former residential area behind my grandparents' house is still a parking lot, courtesy of one of the last V1 strikes; this particular one was  air-launched by an He-111 over the North Sea. My grandparents' back windows were blown in from the blast. My father's older brother was killed in Burma on 20 May 1944. My grandfather served as an ASDIC (Sonar) operator on a Q-ship in the First World War. Some of my teachers, both in England and Stratford, were veterans, as were a couple of customers on my paper route, my first Company Sergeant-Major (fought through France and Holland, and is approaching 93), CQ and RSM (Korea). I was surrounded by veterans. I listened to their stories, asked many questions, and learned much. I read a bunch of books. I toured battlefields and cemeteries and a concentration camp site. I served for forty-three years, and saw and did a few things and lost some friends and colleagues along the way.

Many of the others here have had similar experiences, some more, some less - but more than you.

It takes rather a lot to piss me off, but that last quoted remark of yours managed to. Your "Taming minds; calming rough waters" line is an arrogant and inaccurate claim in my case. You began to have exactly the opposite effect from your first post.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]
> I never made a claim about mainstream media specifically .... The claim was simply that disinformation exists online and it includes misleading reporting--this applies to both mainstream media, even those regarded as reputable sources, and fringe media.




Having reviewed what you wrote, I'll grant you that, but you stated that:

"misleading 'sources' and deliberate disinformation that are rampant online. You can see that the aim is to spread disinformation when the site makes unverifiable claims about the veracity of its work; its 'methodology' page is full of pseudoscience on data collection. On the same page, they even write: "These are not incidents of ordinary crime involving nominal Muslims killing for money or vendetta." How do they know? They certainly don't provide primary or even secondary sources (it's literally just a list with date, location, # of casualties, and a 5-word—15-word max.—description of what apparently transpired. Without primary or secondary sources, how do we know the site's administrators are not merely creating fake entries?"

Followed by:

"Maybe the reason why reports which appear on the list don't appear in _*reputable media or sources*_".

You did not define "reputable media or sources", and my interpretation was that you consider amateur websites to be unreputable and mainstream media to be reputable.

In my experience, that would be a poor assumption.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> I must point out, though, you've admitted to confirmation bias from your last line.




That last line was "Many of them match my own observations very closely", for the convenience of readers.

When a claim does not match my observations and experience in that area, I consider it, but will likely reject it either partially or completely. That does not mean that I have a closed mind, or blindly stick to preconceived notions. I constantly question my own assumptions, and often seek contrary opinions. I am well aware of the dangers of misinterpretation.

My career constantly required me to impartially gather information, analyze it, and make a critical decision. Sometimes, I had the luxury of time to consider everything, often I did not, and I spent a fair amount of time in hazardous environments and situations under some pressure. Errors could cost lives, expensive equipment, or embarrassment. I will make no claim regarding perfection, but I am alive, as is everyone for whom I ever had any responsibility, and the only two deaths in which I played a part were entirely justifiable.

I had/have to have confidence in my ability to separate fact from fantasy, else I'd have been non-functional.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> Regarding your last line: that's indefensible. Are you able to tap into the thoughts of various editors-in-chief of reputable papers and tell me that they chose not to publish something because it doesn't fit into their agenda? You've made a conjecture that can't be proven unless you were to interrogate, in a legal-style deposition, an editor who makes the call on what is publishable and what isn't. Even if you were somehow able to do that; that'd be one example.




"The Cologne assaults were not reported by the national media for days, and The Local says many news outlets started reporting it only after a wave of anger on social media made covering the story unavoidable.[49] This fuelled claims that the media was attempting to cover up crimes by immigrants.[50] Although Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker condemned the assaults, she was strongly criticized for some of her comments and was accused of blaming the victims. Cologne's police chief, Wolfgang Albers, was transferred to provisional retirement for his handling of the situation. The police response and delayed media reaction met strong criticism from German citizens, with some placing blame on the European migrant crisis."

Yes, Wikipedia, I know, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany, but that is simply the most convenient summary of that unfortunate event. There are plenty of others, and similar examples of media cover-up.

And, as police and governmental cover-up have been mentioned, I suggest that you look into the Rotherham rape gangs for a good look at the other side of cultural diversity.

I have never taken much interest in American politics until the last Presidential election. I followed that very closely, and found it quite fascinating. I learned much about the US political system, which I had previously thought to be excessively complicated and, in some ways, silly (such as the Electoral College), but developed an understanding and respect for it. I also watched, very closely, the reporting and polling going on. I watched various mainstream media reports, but also a number of small online operations. Over time, I pared back to a few that I watched regularly. I have done the same with post-election issues, especially the left-driven riots.

Every source had/has its biases, to varying degrees. I came to trust only one mainstream source (Fox), and a few small online sites (The Still Report, in particular), but remained critical of all and still watched the mainstream sources that I considered to be out-to-lunch, just as I used to read almost every piece of Soviet information that I could find earlier in my career, no matter how thin the information content or how thick the propaganda content was or how much of a headache slogging through it gave me. One needs to know and understand one's enemy.

I was not, therefore, surprised at all by Mr Trump's victory. I would not have bet upon it at all, as it was never a certainty, but I saw it as a distinct possibility (and said so to many people) based upon the information that I found online, which never appeared in mainstream sources.

A lot of amateurs put a lot more effort into research and analysis than most professionals. It is not a job for them, but a passion. Many are highly specialized in their interests, and very thorough in those areas. One, for example, analyzed anti-Clinton and anti-Trump merchandise (T-shirts, hats, etcetera) sales as a predictor. Eight times more anti-Clinton stuff sold compared to anti-Trump stuff. Collectively, these sites trended towards a Trump victory, even while the vast majority of mainstream sources were predicting (to the point of pre-printing magazines with President Clinton on the cover) and advocating for Clinton. The blatant bias of most of the US press, and its consistent ability to get things wrong, is well-documented, has caused loss of trust and respect, and driven people to alternate sources of information at their expense.

Neither I, nor millions of others, need to interrogate any editors to see and understand what has been happening.

More to follow.


----------



## Loachman

Part II



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> The danger with amateur researchers is that they aren't well-versed in avoiding confirmation bias and addressing discrepancies without faulty reasoning. This is why I don't attach value to amateur sources, and neither should any intelligence community.




When one looks at a variety of sources, backed up with some practical experience, one sees a pattern. I will not dismiss amateurs so quickly, and neither should any intelligence community. Professionals are not always right (as I have seen many times) and amateurs are not always wrong (as I have seen many times).

I do not think that you realize how much confirmation bias you have yourself.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]
> I don't know what you mean by the parenthetical "to some." You mean to those who don't know what to look for—flaws like faulty methodology and confirmation bias? Coming from those, a claim that a source is accurate is a worthless claim.




Again, for readers' convenience, the line in question is: "I find that a lot of amateur websites do very deep research into subjects that interest them, and many are (to some) surprisingly accurate."

The "some" are those who are surprised when such amateur sites are proven correct, despite not following the conventions of professional research papers (many of which are also rife with a variety of errors and also display bias).



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt][size=10pt]
> There's a problem with your analogy to Nazis.... the point is that the Third Reich held public rallies and Daesh and other militant groups do not hold public rallies. That distinguishing feature, alone, weakens your analogy to the Nazis.




There's a problem with your basic comprehension.

The difference that you point out is merely one of communication. The Nazis lacked the internet, but would have used it if they had it. Public rallies served their purpose for their time and circumstances.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> Why does majority disapproval not matter when dealing with Islam? Why isn't the same rationale applied to sectarian terrorism by Catholic militants in the IRA, or Protestant militants in the UDA? The latent bias you have against Islam is showing. There is really no way for you to justify your double standard position. You are either unaware of the various political and religious kinds of terrorism that have transpired in the last century or you want to treat Islam differently for some invidious reason.



Majority disapproval is very nice, but of little practical value given an active minority approval. The peaceful majority are ill-equipped, mentally and technologically, to hinder the violent minority. Their silence or support can be coerced. I apply the same rationale to other terrorist organizations and have no double standard to justify. The difference is one of scope. There are far more radical Muslims at large killing far more people in far more countries today than any other terrorist movements ever have. They are, in that regard, a unique threat.

I have no bias, latent or otherwise, towards Islam as a faith, any more than I have towards Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism, or any other faith. I have Syrian, Libyan, and Egyptian neighbours, and we get along fine. They are great people, many with tragic backgrounds from which they are happy to have escaped, and value their new country. I am glad to have them as neighbours.

I am far more aware of other terrorist organizations, thank-you-very-much. I have a professional interest in those, if not a major professional interest.

It has never been my job to decide what faith somebody follows, only to help assure that they can follow the faith of their choosing.

My whole professional life, however, has been geared towards recognizing, understanding, deterring, preparing to deal with, and dealing with threats.

The biggest threat today, which is under-rated by far too many (just as the Nazis once were), is radical Islam. I have no quarrel with those members of that faith who do not seek, violently or otherwise, to overturn our society or cause it harm. I enjoy our freedoms and security as they are (subject to a few possible improvements irrelevant to this discussion).



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> Much like you wouldn't recognize confirmation bias in your lacklustre replies to this pressing problem?




That's as prime a case of potkettleblackism as I've ever seen, right there.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> [size=10pt]
> Anyways, that's beside the mark. You don't think I'd recognize an immediate threat fast enough to repel it; you'd be surprised, but whatever you say.



I stand by my remark.



			
				Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> The 'Center for the Study of Political Islam' is a one-man show for a reason. Bear in mind that his Ph.D. is in physics and mathematics; he's not exactly an authority on Islam.



What's this reason? How many men does it take to make a valid show? What does his degree have to do with anything? Does one need a degree in anything to be able to do basic research and produce helpful graphics? Are you disputing the validity of his research and presentation, or merely dismissing it because his degree is in something other than history or Islamic studies? What makes you an authority on Islam, history, terrorism, or anything else of relevance?

You are twenty-four-years old, according to your profile. You display some intelligence, and seem to have some fancy book-learnin' behind you. You have, however, no practical experience, or real understanding of the world yet.

I am very concerned that you profess a desire to represent an organization that you do not now, and may never, understand, to an equally non-understanding public.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Tip: look up the meaning of passive-aggressive, and stop arguing like a teenage girl.

Generalization can be misused, but is just a way of describing a pattern.

The number of worldwide militants (of any ideological grounding) may be very small relative to a general population, but large enough to be a problem.  A handful of people can worry a city.  A few cells can worry a nation.

The chief reason people generalize about Islamic militants is because there are enough of them to notice, and they are widespread.  There are not presently any other large religious groups with small numbers of homicidal militants spread throughout the globe, or conducting cleansing operations against minority religions.  Nor do we often witness mobs dancing in the streets - which suggests a voluntary affiliation on the part of the non-militant - when some country suffers a setback. Pointing at the militants and employing the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is not a rebuttal.  They decide for themselves what they are and what they represent.

It is not the responsibility of locals to deal with marginalized newcomers and make accommodations.  At some point, "fit in or fuck off" applies.

And this - "I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would solutions that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure your call, has been attempted before, regrettably)." - is bullshit.  We could get to that point, but much more provocation is needed.   Meanwhile, your imagination is insufficiently restrained.


----------



## Lex Justitia

@Loachman

Before I reply, I want to officially apologize for the tone in some of my replies. Some of them did seem disrespectful.

It's inexcusable; and while I prefer not to attempt to rationalize or justify the mistake, I feel that I need to, at bare minimum, say that I'm not accustomed to being on a forum with members decades my senior; I often forget there are many with nearly a lifetime's worth of experience--and, if not that much, still greater experience than my own. 

I genuinely apologize for the tone.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Dozen killed by a suicide bomber in Quetta Pakistan. 

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last 30

Covered by Aljazeera, reuters, the daily Star, BBC news, SAMAA TV news Pakistan, Indian Express, news Pakistan.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Tip: look up the meaning of passive-aggressive, and stop arguing like a teenage girl.
> 
> Generalization can be misused, but is just a way of describing a pattern.
> 
> The number of worldwide militants (of any ideological grounding) may be very small relative to a general population, but large enough to be a problem.  A handful of people can worry a city.  A few cells can worry a nation.
> 
> The chief reason people generalize about Islamic militants is because there are enough of them to notice, and they are widespread.  There are not presently any other large religious groups with small numbers of homicidal militants spread throughout the globe, or conducting cleansing operations against minority religions.  Nor do we often witness mobs dancing in the streets - which suggests a voluntary affiliation on the part of the non-militant - when some country suffers a setback. Pointing at the militants and employing the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is not a rebuttal.  They decide for themselves what they are and what they represent.
> 
> It is not the responsibility of locals to deal with marginalized newcomers and make accommodations.  At some point, "fit in or frig off" applies.
> 
> And this - "I imagine, a lot of Daily Mail readers would solutions that include mass deportation, mass internment, or even, ethnic cleansing (which, I'm sure your call, has been attempted before, regrettably)." - is bullshit.  We could get to that point, but much more provocation is needed.   Meanwhile, your imagination is insufficiently restrained.



It's called passive trolling, we see it more and more


----------



## Loachman

Lex Justitia said:
			
		

> @Loachman
> 
> Before I reply, I want to officially apologize for the tone in some of my replies. Some of them did seem disrespectful.
> 
> It's inexcusable; and while I prefer not to attempt to rationalize or justify the mistake, I feel that I need to, at bare minimum, say that I'm not accustomed to being on a forum with members decades my senior; I often forget there are many with nearly a lifetime's worth of experience--and, if not that much, still greater experience than my own.
> 
> I genuinely apologize for the tone.



I, equally genuinely, accept.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

FBI Criminal compliant against Amor Ftouhi:


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Let's test the lousy sources. Name me three news agencies you consider as credible (sorry al Jazeera and abcnews is out) and I'll see if they conve the "bogus" stories on the site I provide.


http://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015l

Interesting read.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Is there an English button on that site I'm missing? Can't see one but I'm also on a mobile device so that could be why?


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Is there an English button on that site I'm missing? Can't see one but I'm also on a mobile device so that could be why?



weird....

try this:

http://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015


----------



## Loachman

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/06/24/canada-needs-a-coherent-policy-to-tackle-the-islamist-agenda

Canada needs a coherent policy to tackle the Islamist agenda 

By Anthony Furey, Postmedia Network 
First posted: Saturday, June 24, 2017 06:00 PM EDT 

For all of the talk we engage in about Islamist extremism, it’s hard to believe we don’t have anything resembling a coherent policy to tackle this menace.

Canada doesn’t have its act together on this most vital of global issues. But we’re not alone. The United States, for all of its conflicts with al-Qaeda and ISIS along with homegrown extremism, doesn't have a clearly articulated philosophy.

Case in point: The other week the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs committee held controversial hearings on “Ideology and Terror: Understanding the Tools, Tactics and Techniques of Violent Extremism”.

They were controversial both because of who testified and, shockingly, because some of the Democrats on the committee didn’t even think the hearings were necessary.

Two witnesses who testified had extensive personal knowledge of Islamic extremism: Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a former Dutch parliamentarian and victim of female genital mutilation. Asra Nomani is a former Wall Street Journal reporter and co-founder, along with Canadian Raheel Raza, of the Muslim Reform Movement.

They should be welcomed as valuable voices in such a discussion. But instead they were sidelined, at least by liberal minds, for not following the naive progressive conception of radical Islam as a benign and misunderstood victim.

“This is extreme moral relativism disguised as cultural sensitivity,” Hirsi Ali and Nomani write in a recent op-ed piece they co-authored for The New York Times. “And it leads good people to make excuses for the inexcusable. The silence of the Democratic senators is a reflection of contemporary cultural pressures. Call it identity politics, moral relativism or political correctness — it is shortsighted, dangerous and, ultimately, a betrayal of liberal values.”

Yes, when you deliberately avoid tackling Islamism – the political agenda that seeks to enshrine orthodox Islam as the dominant force in society – you’re also turning your back on the social progress made by Western society in recent decades.

But at least the U.S. Senate had these hearings and allowed these brave women to speak about their experiences and knowledge. Even if you don’t care for their specific testimonies, the West’s discussion about radical Islam should incorporate more voices and more conversation, not less.

Canadians are eagerly waiting to see what the witness list for the M103 “Islamophobia” hearings, soon to get underway, will look like. Will it be made up mostly of pro-sharia apologists? Or will we hear from Muslim reformers who reject the orthodox elements of their religion?

These questions matter because they help set a tone for how the government, media and general public think about the spread of Islamic fundamentalism.

Back in 1946, George Kennan, an American foreign service officer based in Moscow, submitted what’s now known as the Long Telegram to the State Department.

It was an 8,000 word document that detailed the post-war Soviet philosophy, how they planned to export that philosophy across the world and what the U.S. should do to combat it.

This was the first robust Soviet policy to be articulated on an official level and created the concept of “containment” that was used throughout the Cold War. Kennan then revised this telegram into an essay for Foreign Affairs magazine, which influenced the broader political culture’s perspective on the Soviet agenda.

Without such a unifying policy driving the West’s response to the USSR, the Cold War and the 20th century’s experiment with Communism could have turned out very differently.

“Our first step must be to apprehend, and recognize for what it is, the nature of the movement with which we are dealing,” Kennan writes in the memo. “We must study it with the same courage, detachment, objectivity, and same determination not to be emotionally provoked or unseated by it, with which a doctor studies an unruly and unreasonable individual.”

Kennan considered the issue “undoubtedly the greatest task our diplomacy has ever faced and probably greatest it will ever have to face.” He clearly did not predict the rise of political Islam, which has hobbled many a Middle Eastern community and is now on the rise in countries as diverse as Turkey and Indonesia.

Give the memo or the Foreign Affairs essay a read. Kennan’s work is a refreshing exercise in sober threat assessment, something the Western policy apparatus is not doing – at least not publicly – when it comes to the threat of radical, political Islam.
Canada needs to incorporate this degree of thoroughness into its public policy – in the M103 hearings, in relevant ministerial mandate letters, in committee hearings and more.

Even those progressives who’d prefer to downplay the threat should be on board with such an approach. Ignoring the issue serves no one.

“I am convinced that there would be far less hysterical anti-Sovietism in our country today if the realities of this situation were better understood by our people,” Kennan observed. “There is nothing as dangerous or as terrifying as the unknown.”

Let's take this topic out of the unknown and give it the attention it deserves.


----------



## Jarnhamar

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> weird....
> 
> try this:
> 
> http://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015



Interesting graphs thanks for posting that. It looks like there is a fairly steady increase in the number of terrorist attacks since 2011. Overwhelming portion by Islamic terrorists in 2004 & 2005 then picking up again 2012,2015,2016,2017.

I wonder if there is a graph for religious inspired attacks (ham on pizza, women's clothing) that aren't considered terrorism? I'll see if I can find anything.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

My conclusion was different.  

There have always been terrorist attacks, and in fact more in the past than now.  "Islam-inspired / jihadist" attacks are a relatively new phenomena - it is possible that they will be replaced as the front runners by the "other" that accounted for the vast majority of all attacks in the last 50 years.  

Moreover, those "others" were treated as terrorists pure and simple, and were likely identified by their cause, rather than their race or religion.  Bader Meinhof were terrorists, not Christian-terrorists, or German-terrorists - just terrorists.  I sense that there may be a lesson in all of that.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yes, they didn't get all pussy PC at the thought of calling them terrorists.  Too many folks running scared of saying the wrong thing nowadays.


----------



## Jarnhamar

It looks like Islam inspired attacks replaced what was happening in the 70's, 80s and 90's in Europe.  (I had no idea there was so much terrorism back then)  
Were the people responsible for those 3 decades of attacks also attacking other countries though? Guessing the IRA wasn't but not sure who else were responsible. 
Islamic inspired attacks seem to be on the rise in Europe but they're also happening all across the world.  Aside from 2011 people killed from "others" attacks seems to have dropped off at 2001.   

There looks to be around 150 dead in Europe in 2016 but if TROP's website is accurate then world wide we're seeing 1500 in the last 30 days from Islam. It still seems to be like Islamic terrorism as an entity is world-scale. Something I don't believe others were. 








[quote author=Loachman]

They were controversial both because of who testified and, shockingly, because some of the Democrats on the committee didn’t even think the hearings were necessary.

Two witnesses who testified had extensive personal knowledge of Islamic extremism: Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a former Dutch parliamentarian and victim of female genital mutilation. Asra Nomani is a former Wall Street Journal reporter and co-founder, along with Canadian Raheel Raza, of the Muslim Reform Movement.

They should be welcomed as valuable voices in such a discussion. But instead they were sidelined, at least by liberal minds, for not following the naive progressive conception of radical Islam as a benign and misunderstood victim.
[/quote]

This seems to be a common practice. I seen a twitter post with a 20 something in the US bitching out a holocaust survivor for disagreeing that Trump is just as bad as Hitler or some shit like that. 
_"I figured you of all people would be able to see this. That's just your white privilege speaking, white privilege is a powerful drug"_ or some shit like that.  Also seen it a lot of that mentality targeting gay and black conservatives in the US.
It seems in Canada we only want to hear from Muslims and ex-Muslims when they're pro-Islam.  I was reading some articles about a young girl who escaped islam and blogged about it. Really crazy stuff, I'll try and find them again but like your example she not only gets shouted down and commended by Muslims but by Liberals as well.


----------



## George Wallace

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> It looks like Islam inspired attacks replaced what was happening in the 70's, 80s and 90's in Europe.  (I had no idea there was so much terrorism back then)



Actually it dates back even further.  There were Algerian terrorists in France in the late '50s and '60s.  While we were at 1 (F) Wing, Marville, my mother had just left a market in Longuyon, downhill from our PMQ, where minutes later the Gendarmes had a shoot out with an Algerian, in 1961.  Terrorism in Europe is not that recent historically.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Moreover, those "others" were treated as terrorists pure and simple, and were likely identified by their cause, rather than their race or religion.

With Islamic militants, the religion is the cause, and so they, too, are identified by their cause.


----------



## AbdullahD

Hey Guys, long time no debate?

  I have been on my back for the last month due to being sick and I have had some things bouncing around in my head. So this post may be completely un related to what has been going on here. But, First things first, Lex Justia, I have found the general membership here and some posters you are debating with to have very nuanced and educated positions. No where in the world will we find people who completely agree with us, but it is being able to debate and argue issues and not become angry with the person is what the world needs. Jarnhamar and I among others, have extremely different views on Islam, but that does not make him/them bad per se. You will find on army.ca people will articulate their criticisms of Islam for the most part respectfully and the mods will axe the trolls.

Second thing, the religion of peace link. I can not speak to the veracity of their research as of right now, but I can bring up another point. Which has been debated here before (i think), that maybe some of these 'terrorist' scum are just suicidal mentally disturbed people. Who after becoming disenfranchised or angry etc, go on a shooting spree saying 'Allahu Akbar'. Then it becomes easy enough for daesh to just claim credit and ba da bing ba da boom we have another attack. 

Thirdly is the worlds population. 1 billion in 1800~, 2 billion in 1900~ and 7 billion in 2017~. Now rural areas tend to have higher rates of crime and yet to my understanding lower rates of terrorism and terrorist propagation. Could it be that the rising population and the increase in city dwelling has led to lower crime rate but has compounded the risk of terrorist attacks? Even though it seems to be a negative correlation? (I need more evidence to back up or debunk this, it is just an idea I had)

Fourthly, warfare. It has evolved in accessibility, in practice and execution. How we conducted warfare a hundred or two hundred years ago is different then today. The battle lines have become far more blurry and it is harder to pick the enemy out and one single isolated soldier can do far far more damage today then one or two hundred years ago. Also, with the rise in popularity of the internet, relatively simple homemade explosives and how to make them and were to place them has become fairly common knowledge to anyone wishing to act upon a deranged desire to murder people. So add this to the third point we have more attacks and they are potentially far more dangerous.

Fifthly, the counter narrative. Which, at the Islamic level is very disjointed and un-cohesive, we have many of thousands of Imams and activists within Islam debunking and working against the terrorists. But so many of the different Islamic groups are having issues working together and that makes their voice weaker as a whole and some idiotic fool claiming to be the caliph all the more seductive. At the government level, in some cases it is wholly misguided, other cases weak and to afraid to tackle key issues. Until the government creates a comprehensive and cohesive program to combat and Muslims as a whole work together not individually we will be having this issues to an extent. The individual lone actors speaking out do help, but a unified voice would be better.

Sixth thing, we are at WAR. These terrorist scum bags are enemy combatants, even when they live in their mommas basement.  This is how daesh and the rest of those dogs decided to conduct their war. Just like the civil war were soldiers went behind the lines to terrorize the other side. These terrorists are the same way, to an extent. So should we not count them as enemy combatants and not isolated incidents? Meaning, we calculate how many times all the worlds armies have launched offensive attacks and then compare it to how many times daesh launched attacks against us and other innocents? That would be an interesting comparison.

Seventh, wahabis and hanbalis are not correlated. Hanbalis madhab did not create wahabism. But yes, some of the rulings are similar or identical. But the history is far more convoluted. 

I had more but my mind has failed me and I have become tired by just writing this up.. and i must rest 😂😂😂

Take care guys
Abdullah


----------



## Loachman

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448478/terrorism-overreaction-normalization?target=topic&tid=856

Normalizing Terror Is Worse than Overreacting to It 

by David Harsanyi June 9, 2017 12:00 AM

The tendency to take terror in stride is harmful to our security.

The day after Islamic terrorists struck England for the second time in a month, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman offered the prevailing liberal talking point of the day: Stop panicking. “I’m going to London later this week,” he mocked on Twitter. “OMG! I might be stabbed! Or I might get hit by a drunk driver tonight, or run over by a cab tomorrow.”

He might. And if any of those things were to happen, although tragic and sad, it would have little effect on the population of England - for good reason. We are resigned to a certain level of random criminality and misfortune in Western society. In free societies, we do our best to mitigate the damage without trampling on civil rights, but it’s part of modern life.

Certainly, for the victims of violence - and their friends and family  there’s little difference. The consequences for the rest of society, though, can vastly differ. If an unarmed man were shot down by a police officer, would Krugman tell his 3 million followers, “Relax, you have a better chance of being run over by a taxi”? Of course not. Terrorism is about more than just risk assessment. There are broader societal implications to take into account.

Those who kill in the name of Islam are part of a unique worldwide political movement that includes, to various degrees, radicalized men and women from both great factions of the faith. They are on every continent, and they give no quarter. There is no dialoguing. There is no realistic political solution that might appease them. There is no legislative fix. Terrorism - as well as the recruitment and propaganda tools by which terrorists survive - is funded by Islamic regimes and the radicals in them, and applauded by adherents around the world. Every attack is about all of this.

Remember, as well, that the magnitude of the violence is alleviated only by the vigilance of the people fighting it. Comprehending the depravity of the jihadi makes people nervous in the way random criminal violence should not. Those who peddle Krugmanesque risk assessments also fail to take into consideration the number of terror plots that have been thwarted. The West spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year trying to avert another 9/11, although we obviously struggle to stop these low-tech attacks. The London metropolitan police reported that “there are 500 current terrorism investigations, involving 3,000 current subjects of interest.” One of the London Bridge terrorists appeared in a documentary called “The Jihadis Next Door.” This seems alarming.

Krugman went on to tweet: “I mean, seriously. Terrorism = bad. But panicking about this stuff - or worse, inciting panic - is unforgivable. Especially for POTUS.” Wait. Terrorism is merely bad, but panicking is unforgivable? (Juxtapose this comment with the hysterical reaction to the United States’ exit from the toothless Paris climate agreement.)

I’m not sure the president was “inciting panic,” but let’s concede that his tweets were foolish. No one is panicking now. No one has panicked in the past. By panic, liberals typically mean you’ve failed to discuss Islamic radicalism within the politically correct strictures they’ve prescribed. “That’s exactly what the terrorists want!” goes the platitude. Don’t get too mad. Don’t be too blunt, or you might create new terrorists. And definitely don’t overreact.

Shouldn’t we, and the Brits, and everyone else, react to terror in the most appropriate way, rather than contemplating how jihadis want or don’t want us to react? After all, this wouldn’t be the first time we fought in a war others had decided to start.

Perhaps the only thing worse than overreacting is underreacting. It seems to me that one of the underlying reasons folks conflate terror and criminality is political. To admit that the Islamic world has a singular struggle with extremism, violence, and illiberalism is an unwelcome intrusion into debates regarding immigration and multiculturalism, especially in Europe.

Perhaps the only thing worse than overreacting is underreacting. In the United States, it’s a bit different: Let’s not overreact because we also have an extremist problem. We also hate. We’re also violent. Every time some deranged (genuine) lone wolf kills, the usual voices demand to know why we haven’t treated the attack as we would an Islamic strike. Well, after the murderous Portland, Ore., train attacker is subdued, there is no terror cell to dismantle, no funding to root out, and no worldwide death cult to liberalize. It doesn’t diminish the odiousness of the crime, but it necessitates a different response.

Needless to say, while it would be tragic if a Nobel laureate were accidentally run down by a lorry driver, girls who are blown up at an Ariana Grande concert - or, for that matter, people who are forced to choose between jumping off one of the Twin Towers or burning in it - are victims in a war that pits liberalism against despotism. No, it’s not World War II, but it’s dangerous enough. Treating its casualties as we would those who die in accidents will only normalize it.

David Harsanyi is a senior editor of the Federalist and the author of The People Have Spoken (and They Are Wrong): The Case Against Democracy.


----------



## Loachman

For those who do not understand that governments understate the problem and suppress those who recognize it, and that the media plays along:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/448935/europe-free-speech-crackdown-hard-right-while-terrorists-go-ignored

Europe’s Free-Speech Crackdown: Punish Anti-Muslims, Ignore 

by Noah Daponte-Smith June 23, 2017 5:09 PM

Governments that try to suppress incendiary speech on the right only make it more alluring.

A spate of terrorist attacks has hit Europe in the past month, not only in Manchester and London but also in Paris and Brussels, where incidents this week were mercifully terminated before they could do any real damage. In Britain, a man seeking vengeance rammed a van into a crowd exiting a mosque, giving rise to real and justified fears of an anti-Muslim backlash. The incidents have left the Continent, and especially Britain, in a state of nervous agitation, fearful of a prolonged period of social unrest and heightened tensions between Muslim communities and their secular neighbors.

On the issue of free speech, the response from authorities has been sad but predictable. Reports the New York Times: “In a coordinated campaign across 14 states, the German police on Tuesday raided the homes of 36 people accused of hateful postings over social media, including threats, coercion, and incitement to racism. Most of the raids concerned politically motivated right-wing incitement.” In Sussex, in southern England, a man has been charged with “publishing written material intending to stir up religious hatred against Muslims” on his Facebook account in 2015; he faces a year in prison. The Sussex police say they hope the lengthy sentence will deter those looking to “spread messages of fear and hate” on the Internet.

There are two things that come to mind in the wake of this suppression. The first is that Americans should never forget the value of free speech. Free speech - not its anodyne, Continental form - is by and large a uniquely American institution. It simply does not exist in Europe. Those who yearn for an America that looks more like the orderly, regulated, universal-health-care systems of Western Europe should keep this fact in the back of their mind always.

The second thing to say is that the crackdown on free speech is not occurring in absentia. The ongoing suppression interacts with decisions taken or not taken in other domains of policy and public debate. The most important of those decisions is that politicians and the culture more broadly have chosen not to inquire into the specifically Islamic roots of terrorism. To decline to blame Muslims en masse for terrorism is well and good and should continue. But the unwillingness to ask how Islam may provide a wellspring of justification for terrorist actions is harder to rationalize. It comes with a certain set of implications and corollaries.

Because someone still has to be blamed. Humans are incapable of accepting acts of terrorism - or just about any human action that causes mass suffering - as quasi-random acts governed by processes too byzantine for us to understand. We still feel the need to pin the blame on somebody or something, so that through punishment we may eradicate the chance of another attack.

In this case, the refusal to query the role of Islam in inspiring terrorism - a refusal regarding which my argument is agnostic - has directed the blame in the opposite direction, toward those people who make it their business to propagate their hatred of Islam and those who follow it. Not only does this blame-shifting fulfill the political need to shore up Britain’s international image - nobody likes a country of racists - and display the requisite concern for Muslim communities. It also fulfills the psychological need to force someone - anyone - to take responsibility for the heinous crimes.

In fact an entire ideology, that of right-wing xenophobia and racism, can be blamed, and its proponents punished. The energies that might have been directed toward Wahhabi extremism flow instead toward the elimination of an ideology expressing similar hatred but boasting considerably less power to incite actual violence. The logic motivating this suppression is precisely the one that authorities neglect to use in the case of Islam: that certain sorts of rhetoric, however anonymous and innocuous, have a radicalizing effect on the environment and can effect physical violence; therefore they must be prohibited.

That strategy is likely only to backfire. Responding to a terrorist attack by jailing entirely innocent men - they are nearly all men - who express unappealing and unwelcome views does little more than radicalize the opposition and reduce the size of the acceptable center ground. When a government tells its citizens that they may not hold certain views, those views do not fancifully dissipate; rather, they come to be articulated only by their most radical proponents, thereby polarizing the political climate and stifling the expression of more-moderate and constructive opinions. Had the present system of legal enforcement existed in the 1960s, Enoch Powell may well have faced prison time for his infamous “rivers of blood” speech. But that would not detract from the attraction of his ideas, or from their popularity: It would only ensure that they became the property of characters far more unsavory.

But that it will backfire does not mean it cannot do its damage. The terms in which the authorities conducting widespread suppression of free speech emanating largely from the right are jarring. “Our society must not allow a climate of fear, threat, criminal violence, and violence either on the street or on the Internet,” says the president of the German Federal Criminal Police Office. That would not sound out of place in an Orwell novel, not only for its totalitarian mindset but also for its absurd juxtaposition with the situation on the ground: Idiots spewing their vile thoughts on Facebook are conflated with Islamic terrorists killing hundreds.

Europe has responded to the rise of terror with the tactics of suppression. That these tactics won’t work will become obvious soon enough. But until then, there is plenty of reason to fear.

Noah Daponte-Smith is a student of modern history and politics at Yale University and an editorial intern at National Review.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Loachman said:
			
		

> Part II
> 
> 
> Majority disapproval is very nice, but of little practical value given an active minority approval. The peaceful majority are ill-equipped, mentally and technologically, to hinder the violent minority. Their silence or support can be coerced. I apply the same rationale to other terrorist organizations and have no double standard to justify. The difference is one of scope. There are far more radical Muslims at large killing far more people in far more countries today than any other terrorist movements ever have. They are, in that regard, a unique threat.



If people read on how ISIS established itself in places like Mosul, they moved in under the guise of charities or as students, developed intelligence on who was who and who could threaten their plans. Some players were co opted by marriage to family, others ID as initial targets, either threatened covertly to leave or murdered in a gruesome fashion in order to send a message. So when they were ready to move, the natural political "antibodies" to their movements were wiped out in a matter of weeks before they could coalesce into a effective response. The removal of the effective leaders in an area left the majority of people paralyzed and terrorized. Combined with decent light infantry tactics, good morale, good leadership, significant belief and understanding of their mission and high mobility, they were able easily defeat the resident police and military forces. Many of which it appeared they had also co opted through their Baathist contacts.


----------



## Haggis

Well, there must be a holiday long weekend coming up.  Gas prices have risen....again...and ISIS has threatened to kill us..... again. (shared with the usual disclaimers)


----------



## Remius

Interesting turn of events. 

Crazy Canadian Tire Lady charged with terrorism...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/isis-canadian-tire-terrorism-charges-1.4189638

She's a piece of work that one.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Next, they'll be giving her $10M too.   :  Sounds as if she really needs Rehab.


----------



## Remius

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Next, they'll be giving her $10M too.   :  Sounds as if she really needs Rehab.



Bah, you only get that if you go to Gitmo.  She'll be lounging in a facility in Ontario


----------



## Lex Justitia

@AbdullahD

I can't agree with you that we're in wartime because ferreting out the radicalized from the general population doesn't fit conventional warfare; our efforts against Daesh, in a number of ways, do not fit either (but because they have established a demarcated caliphate, the frontlines of the "war" are clearer than they were pre-Daesh). 

The differences between combatting terrorism and conventional warfare (I see you've listed some) are the very reasons why it would be difficult to equate them. I wrote an unpublished paper (not published because I've turned into a collection of essays, which is still a work-in-progress) in response to the dissent in the United States Gitmo detainees' case, Boudimene v. Bush, where the minority of that court's members justified Gitmo detentions by saying that, for all intents and purposes, detainees are prisoners-of-war. To arrive at this conclusion, one would have to essentially blur the differences between conventional warfare and the campaigns to combat terrorism.

The implication by blurring these differences is that, if there's the political will and authorization by statute, governments could crackdown on and indefinitely detain other classes of offenders on the basis that the government is fighting a campaign against them. As far as the US is concerned, there is statute that prevents the military from being used in place of law enforcement--in particular the Posse Comitatus Act and Insurrections Act--which essentially guards against this; but, again, with the political will, these can be amended or repealed altogether. 

In short, if you blur the intricate differences between conventional warfare and the unconventional attacks today, you'd have opened a Pandora's box of unimagined consequences--perhaps some that will have strayed too far from basic protections that value liberty over overzealous enforcement or brutish tactics. What is and isn't warfare is no trifle matter.


----------



## Loachman

War has changed, as it has over several millennia, and it will continue to change.

The unconventional often becomes conventional. Mass armoured combat is now rather rare. Insurgencies are becoming the norm.

Khadr should, in my opinion, be treated as a prisoner of war and be held for the duration of the conflict.

Some jihadis _*may*_ become safe to release into general society, but many will _not_ stop until they are dead, therefore either death or indefinite confinement are the only ways of eliminating them as threats.

I have precious little sympathy for Khadr, and most here likely have even less than me.

He most certainly does not deserve compensation, and I hope that the Speer family gets every penny.


----------



## Loachman

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/449526/afghan-refugees-rape-jihad-europe?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NR%20Daily%20Saturday%202017-07-15&utm_term=NR5PM%20Actives

Have Afghan Refugees in Europe Launched a ‘Rape Jihad’?

by David French July 14, 2017 5:19 PM

A compelling piece from a member of the foreign-policy elite suggests the answer is ‘yes.’

One of the hallmarks of jihadists is their grotesque savagery against women. The classic Hollywood picture of a jihadist as a pure, pious young Muslim man is largely nonsense. The reality is far more brutish. The tales of sex slavery in ISIS-held Iraq and Syria should chill thinking people to the bone. During my own time in Iraq, al-Qaeda terrorists were known for systematically raping women as part of an effort to shame them into becoming suicide bombers. After brutal gang rapes, they were told that the only way they could “redeem” their allegedly lost honor was to strap a bomb on their broken bodies and blow themselves up at restaurants, checkpoints, and hospitals. It was pure evil.

Also striking was the nonchalance and fearlessness of the most hardened jihadists after their capture by Americans. By the end of my deployment, I could almost predict whether we’d snagged a committed jihadist by his attitude in detention. Al-Qaeda leaders would often laugh, act like they were on vacation, and sometimes attempt to engage their captors in casual conversation. I’ll never forget the arrogant confidence of an Oxford English-speaking leader of an al-Qaeda rape ring. They knew they were safe, and they gloried in their invulnerability.

It’s against this backdrop - savage treatment of women and contempt for Western justice - that I read with alarm a stunning report on “Europe’s Afghan crime wave.” The piece is notable not just for its content, but for its author. Cheryl Benard has worked sympathetically with refugees and was a subject-matter expert at the RAND corporation. In other words, this piece isn’t from the anti-Muslim fever swamps but from the heart of the elite national-security establishment. Her thesis is simple: European nations are grappling with a wave of vicious immigrant attacks against women, and the attackers are coming disproportionately from Afghanistan.

The stories are horrifying, sometimes involving attacks in broad daylight and in public spaces like parks, trains, and train stations. Read these stories and try to imagine them happening here:

In one recent case that raised a huge public outcry, a woman was out for a walk in a park on an elevation above the Danube. With her she had her two children, a toddler plus her infant in a baby carriage. Out of the blue, an Afghan refugee leapt at her, threw her down, bit her, strangled her and attempted to rape her. In the struggle, the baby carriage went careening towards the embankment and the infant almost plunged into the river below. With her second child looking on aghast, the woman valiantly fought off her assailant, ripping the hood off his jacket, which later made it possible for an Austrian police dog to track him down.

Or take these stories, from an Austrian daily newspaper:

Front page: Afghan (eighteen) attacks young woman at Danube Festival. “Once again there has been an attempted rape by an Afghan. A twenty-one-year-old Slovak tourist was mobbed and groped by a group of men. She managed to get away, but was pursued by one of them, an Afghan asylum seeker who caught her and dragged her into the bushes. Nearby plainclothes policemen noticed the struggle and intervened to prevent the rape at the last moment.” Page ten: “A twenty-five-year-old Afghan attempted to rape a young woman who was sitting in the sun in the park. Four courageous passersby dragged the man off the victim and held him until the police arrived.” Page twelve: “Two Afghans have been sentenced for attempting to rape a woman on a train in Graz. The men, who live in an asylum seekers’ residence, first insulted the young woman with obscene verbal remarks before attacking her. When she screamed for help, passengers from other parts of the train rushed to her aid.”

Compounding the horror, she describes how authorities covered up or minimized the worst atrocities:

It became clear that the authorities had known about, and for political reasons had deliberately covered up, large-scale incidences of sexual assault by migrants. For example, a gang of fifty Afghans who terrorized women in the neighborhood of the Linz train station had been brushed off by a government official with the remark that this was an unfortunate consequence of bad weather, and that once summer came the young men would disperse into the public parks and no longer move in such a large, menacing pack. The public was not amused.

Benard concentrates on Austria, but these stories are being repeated across Europe. Moreover, these disproportionately Afghan attackers display breathtaking contempt for the law. Old men with gray hair will claim to be minors. They ruthlessly exploit welfare systems, due process, and Western norms to not just attack women but to suck all the resources they can from their increasingly angry and frustrated hosts.

Apologists try to offer absurd explanations for the crime wave, claiming alcohol abuse (an excuse sometimes offered by the refugees themselves), culture clashes, and the alleged inability of fundamentalist men to control themselves when exposed to the actual female form. All of them fail. Human beings are not that animalistic. A few beers don’t transform men into wild animals. Nor does the sight of a young mom’s bare arms. Benard, instead posits a different and far more disturbing explanation:

This brings us to a third, more compelling and quite disturbing theory - the one that my Afghan friend, the court translator, puts forward. On the basis of his hundreds of interactions with these young men in his professional capacity over the past several years, he believes to have discovered that they are motivated by a deep and abiding contempt for Western civilization. To them, Europeans are the enemy, and their women are legitimate spoils, as are all the other things one can take from them: housing, money, passports.

This explanation, in fact, rings true with jihadist theology and practice. Sex slaves represent “spoils,” as does the wealth of conquered regions. It’s a return to the plunder of the medieval past. The gentle Europeans give them nothing to fear, so jihadists live as they wish, taking what they want.

Benard ends her piece with a disturbing observation. Many of these Afghan men are products of American-funded education, grown up in an American-influenced nation. She calls these men “ours.” It’s a challenging point, but she’s wrong to say that we’ve been “the dominant influence and paymaster in Afghan society.” Paymaster, yes. Influence, no. Talk to virtually any veteran of the Afghan war, and he’ll tell you - we’ve barely touched the underlying culture, and the line between outright enemy and oppressed refugee is very blurry indeed.

America has friends in Afghanistan, to be sure, but it’s also full of enemies who hate America and the West. Never forget that it was and is fertile ground for Taliban extremism. It’s simply a mistake for anyone to think that the fact that someone “flees” a jihadist nation is at all relevant to their views about jihad or their regard for Western civilization.

So far, the United States has been fortunate. In large part because of the vast ocean that separates us from the Middle East, our refugee influx has never been more than a trickle compared with the surges that overwhelmed Europe after the rise of ISIS. Would the Obama administration have had the will to turn away a million men and women if they somehow washed up on our shores? But as the political battle over immigration and refugees continues to rage, Benard’s story is a vital reminder that jihad is the product of a culture that isn’t confined to the soil of a place. When enemies move, they bring their hatred to new lands.

What’s the solution? Benard calls for rigorous screening that reads a bit like the oft-maligned “extreme vetting” that Trump rightly promises. She also has a challenge for the Left:

Finally, the Left has to do a bit of hard thinking. It’s fine to be warm, fuzzy and sentimental about strangers arriving on your shores, but let’s also spare some warm, fuzzy and sentimental thoughts for our own values, freedoms and lifestyle. Girls and women should continue to feel safe in public spaces, be able to attend festivals, wear clothing appropriate to the weather and their own liking, travel on trains, go to the park, walk their dogs and live their lives. This is a wonderful Western achievement, and one that is worth defending.

In the aftermath of sexual assaults in Cologne, Stuttgart, and Hamburg at the end of 2015, my colleague Andrew McCarthy coined the term “rape jihad” to describe the systematic, large-scale, and public attacks on women at the hands of Muslim migrants. It’s a reminder that jihad - even violent jihad - is about more than car bombs, random stabbings, or nightclub shootings. It’s also manifested through a ground-up assault on Western values, taking advantage of Western sympathies, to create fear and confusion. Europe is teaching America a sad lesson. Our compassion must never make us fools.

- David French is a senior writer for National Review, a senior fellow at the National Review Institute, an attorney, and a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom.


----------



## Loachman

Not strictly an Islamic problem, and not conventional terrorism, but:

https://www.thestar.com/news/fgm/2017/07/14/canadian-girls-are-being-taken-abroad-to-undergo-female-genital-mutilation-documents-reveal.html

Canadian girls are being taken abroad to undergo female genital mutilation, documents reveal

Canada has done little to understand the scope of the problem and is lagging far behind other developed countries in their efforts to prevent “vacation cutting,” experts say.

By Jayme PoissonNews reporter

Fri., July 14, 2017

Thousands of Canadian girls are at risk of female genital mutilation, government officials believe. And some are being taken overseas to have the dangerous procedure done - an illegal act known as “vacation cutting.”

Officials from the federal government’s Global Affairs Ministry warn that, as with forced marriage, the “one chance rule” applies to these cases, meaning a professional might get only one opportunity to speak to a potential victim and save her, according to documents obtained by the Star.

And yet Canada has done little to understand the scope of the problem and is lagging far behind other developed countries in efforts to prevent it, experts say.

“Based on the limited information available, it is possible that a few thousand Canadian girls are at risk, some of whom will be taken overseas for the procedure,” wrote Elaine Cukeric of the federal government’s Vulnerable Children’s Unit in a June 2015 email to a Canadian consular official in Nairobi, Kenya. At the time, the unit - tasked with dealing with issues related to Canadian children abroad - was reaching out to consulates in Africa, the Middle East, India and Pakistan where cutting is prevalent and asking for their experience dealing with the practice so that “we might develop an effective strategy.”

In a statement to the Star, a Global Affairs spokesperson said the federal government “recognizes that female genital mutilation/cutting is one of the most severe violations of the human rights of women and girls” and when made aware of a case they provide “appropriate consular services.” The spokesperson could not say how many cases her ministry has dealt with in recent years because they “do not have a specific category to track cases of (FGM)” and, further, are “not aware of any updated statistics on the issue of Canadian girls at risk.”

Female genital mutilation (FGM) - also known as female genital cutting or female circumcision - is a procedure that intentionally alters or causes injury to external female organs. It can be inflicted on girls as young as 1 and varies in severity from partial removal of the clitoris, to excising the clitoris and labia and stitching up the walls of the vulva to leave only a tiny opening - known as infibulation.

FGM has no health benefits for girls and women. It can cause severe bleeding, problems with urination and later cysts, infections, as well as complications in childbirth and increased risk of newborn deaths, according to the World Health Organization. It can also deny women sexual pleasure. FGM affects more than 200 million women worldwide, according to UNICEF. It is a crime in Canada, as is sending a child elsewhere to have the procedure done.

What is unknown - beyond anecdotal evidence - is whether FGM is happening within Canadian borders. In the U.S., a doctor in Michigan was recently charged with carrying out the practice on up to 100 young girls, according to federal prosecutors, who say that no Canadian victims have been identified yet. There have also been cases in the U.K., France and Australia.

Cukeric’s email correspondence, and dozens of additional emails sent by government employees over the past three years and released to the Star through an access to information request, reference multiple cases the government is aware of in which Canadian girls have undergone or are alleged to have undergone cutting abroad.

Government officials reference summaries of specific cases they are aware of, which are housed in internal servers. Many of the cases arose because “a relative (aunt/cousin) was the complainant,” said a Nairobi official. A different consular official in Nairobi wrote that their office had seen “several cases, not all of them successful.” Other officials mention known cases in Somalia and Pakistan - where it is “understood they have a lot of experience dealing with” FGM cases.

In one email chain from September 2015, officials reference a case in which a “little girl” was “alleged to be removed from Canada for the purposes of female circumcision.” (The child’s location in Canada and the country she was allegedly taken to have both been redacted to protect her privacy.)

Local police and children’s services “were unable to prevent the girl from leaving,” said one email.

FGM is practised in 29 countries, mainly in Africa, the Middle East, India and other parts of Asia. It is seen by some as a rite of passage into womanhood or a condition of marriage. Though it is not considered an Islamic practice - it predates the religion - for some, it is a religious ritual or requirement and there is tremendous societal pressure placed on families to have it done. 

In another document from June 2015 summarizing an hour-long phone call with a senior consular officer in Nairobi, the official describes the “very delicate cases” and focuses on Somalia as an example.

The official explains that many Somali families relocated to Canada during the civil war in the 1990s, and some grew “concerned about the development of Canadian values.” In one example, a family might tell their children they are going on vacation to Australia, but instead, according to the documents, they travel to a small, remote village in Somalia for the girls to be cut. The official adds that the Canadian government has found out about these cases because “having grown up in Canada, the girls know their rights” and use social media to tell a friend, who in turn contacts Canadian authorities.

The consular official then listed a series of challenges associated with intervening, including the “right of the father to prohibit movement” and the fact that locally engaged staff overseas “may be less concerned with FGM and therefore less likely to act.”

It is also very difficult for victims of FGM to speak out against their families, the official said, adding that telling the embassy their story means they might never see their parents or siblings again. “It becomes the most difficult decision of their young lives,” she said.

In another summary of a discussion about FGM with a Toronto-based expert whose identity has been censored, the expert tells the Vulnerable Children’s Unit that Global Affairs had previously received accounts of “some girls who have been severely beaten and/or sexually abused by family members prior to (FGM), sometimes due to the girl’s attempt to contact authorities for assistance.”

At the same time, officials acknowledge they likely aren’t seeing the majority of cases.

“I think (FGM) is highly under-reported at the consular level, as most victims are young … and often not in a position to help themselves,” said yet another consular official in Nairobi in an email sent in March of this year. She added that for older girls, “it is often done in conjunction with a forced marriage, so the two issues are closely linked and might be reported as (forced marriage) instead of (FGM).”

In 1997, the Criminal Code was amended to include female genital mutilation as a form of aggravated assault. It’s not just the person performing the mutilation who could face justice. Provisions in the code also allow for others to be charged, for example, if a parent actively participates in the offence by holding a child’s hands or requests that someone perform it. And the amendments make it illegal to remove a child from Canada for the purpose of female genital mutilation.

There has never been a criminal conviction for female genital mutilation in Canada.

In its statement to the Star, Global Affairs say efforts to prevent FGM “remain collaborative,” and it also sent statements on behalf of the RCMP; the Department of Justice; Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada; and Status of Women Canada. They reference various steps taken by government agencies. For example, the RCMP is currently in the midst of developing an internal policy to deal with FGM. The Justice Department has given nearly $350,000 in funding to an organization in Quebec, RAFIQ, to develop “tools on the physical and psychological consequences of FGM.”

“The purpose of this project is to try to empower other women to denounce this kind of practice and to help young women to understand why it is not a good practice,” said Maria Montejo, chair of the board of RAFIQ.

The statement from Global Affairs also says that, “going forward, we will do more work with local women’s organizations.”

While there is some progress being made, Canada’s efforts fall short of what other countries are actively doing, said Corinne Packer, a senior researcher at the University of Ottawa’s school of public health. Packer co-authored a 2015 report on Canada’s response to FGM for the Canadian Medical Association Journal and reviewed the government responses provided to the Star.

“We’re behind the ball. We’re putting our head in the ground like an ostrich,” she said, adding that by the time a girl is overseas, it’s often too late. More work needs to done on prevention in Canada, Packer said.

Earlier this summer, U.S. Homeland Security launched a pilot program to help prevent vacation cutting. The program is based on an initiative at London’s Heathrow airport, where security agents are trained to identify girls who are risk.

Canada’s Justice Department, in a 2014 internal memo also obtained by the Star through an access to information request, acknowledges that the U.K. has “recently initiated a more proactive approach to FGM with a view to increased prosecutions.”

Kowser Omer-Hashi, a former Somali refugee now living in Toronto, was subjected to FGM. She is a former midwife who has been campaigning against the practice for more than two decades.

“We have a prime minister who declared himself a feminist and has a daughter the same age as children who could be losing their lives at this moment,” Omer-Hashi said. “If that doesn’t touch his heart to do something about FGM, I think there is no hope.”

In the internal emails obtained by the Star, government officials speaking amongst themselves suggest, and at times admit, that the Canadian response has not been adequate.

In the 2015 email chain discussing the case in which the “little girl” was alleged to have been removed from Canada for the purpose of FGM and neither local police nor children’s services believed they were able to intervene, one official from Global Affairs asks for an update on how the case unfolded.

“I believe we never heard back from local partners (CAS and others),” said one response.

But in the same chain, another official said that at a recent meeting about FGM, the Department of Justice and the RCMP said local authorities “had jurisdiction to do more to prevent removal” under Canada’s laws.

In yet another email in the chain, which is largely censored, Sean Blane, deputy director of the Consular Operations Bureau, said: “I think this speaks to our need for policy of process.”

Blane said at another point in the thread, “I honestly think if we’re going to do any work on FGM it could be on prevention while in Canada.”

With files from Michele Henry

Jayme Poisson can be reached at jpoisson@thestar.ca  or 416-814-2725.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Merkel is a Quisling and has, in my opinion, doomed Europe with her actions.  If they had half a brain and some balls, they'd round these fuckers up and fly them back as cargo.


----------



## Loachman

There is an inevitable and bloody conflict coming, when enough people say "enough" and fight back.

And it won't be the first time that Europe purged itself of jihadi invaders and occupiers.

Meanwhile, few countries remember their history better than the majority, and protect their borders.


----------



## jollyjacktar

When that day comes, I hope they're able to take their countries back.  Merkel should reflect on what happened to Benito when the masses had enough of his shit and saw the light.


----------



## Journeyman

Loachman said:
			
		

> by David French July 14, 2017 5:19 PM
> A compelling piece from a member of the foreign-policy elite


David French is a "member of the foreign-policy elite"?  

a)  :stars: 

b)  :rofl:        Your choice.

Clearly we're working with different definitions.


----------



## Remius

Journeyman said:
			
		

> David French is a "member of the foreign-policy elite"?
> 
> a)  :stars:
> 
> b)  :rofl:        Your choice.
> 
> Clearly we're working with different definitions.



I suggest you read the actual article.  The member of the foreign policy elite that David French refers to is Cheryl Bernard.  specifically him making reference to an article she wrote.


----------



## Journeyman

Sorry, I got side-tracked by "by David French July 14, 2017 5:19 PM

A compelling piece *from a member of the foreign-policy elite *.... " which suggests that this right-wing shill was somehow an elite anything.



But if people are actually reading, I recommend this from Business Insider:


> *Is terrorism getting worse? *
> Frederic Lemieux, PhD
> LINK
> 
> Despite the intensity of media coverage and public perception, terrorism is actually not more frequent today than a few decades ago. For instance, terrorist attacks were far more common during the Cold War period than during the post-9/11 era. Some experts believe terrorism peaked during the 1970s.
> Despite the recent attacks, the U.K. and Western Europe experienced relatively low terrorist activity during the period 2000 to 2016 compared with the period 1970 to 1995.
> 
> In the United States, terrorism attacks were in sharp decline from 1970 to 2011, decreasing from approximately 475 incidents a year to fewer than 20.
> 
> Worldwide, terrorism is highly concentrated in a handful of countries.
> Terrorist attacks in 2014 were mainly concentrated in Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Pakistan and Syria. These countries saw 78 percent of the deaths and 57 percent of all attacks in the world. Since 2000, only 3 percent of deaths caused by terrorist attacks took place in Western countries, including Australia, Canada, members of the European Union and the United States.
> 
> In the U.S., the number of deaths represents 2.2 percent of the worldwide terrorist death toll. The violence committed in Western countries by organized terrorist groups such as al-Qaida or IS represents approximately 30 percent, while so-called “lone wolfs” account for 70 percent of the attacks.
> 
> All in all, terrorism activity in Western countries is not worse than before the 9/11 era. The opposite is true.


----------



## Loachman

A million plus Russians, with about 75% being military-age single males, did not flood into Europe, Scandinavia, and the UK during the Cold War, sucking up resources, burning cars, harassing people, and driving up rape rates, however.

Conventional terrorism is rightly a concern, which should not be casually dismissed, but it is the huge influx of society-altering foreigners who have no respect for their host culture that seems to be the biggest worry for people.


----------



## Jarnhamar

IMAO mass refugees /migrants can be weaponized  and cause terror if and when that mass flux of migrants are drastically increasing the rate of violent and sexual crimes.


----------



## Remius

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sorry, I got side-tracked by "by David French July 14, 2017 5:19 PM
> 
> A compelling piece *from a member of the foreign-policy elite *.... " which suggests that this right-wing shill was somehow an elite anything.
> 
> 
> 
> But if people are actually reading, I recommend this from Business Insider:



Good article.  I'm curious about what they said about PETA that caused the correction  [


----------



## a_majoor

While this guy evidently didn't have any sort of realistic plan to actually carry out his stated goal, the possibility of mega attacks and truly grotesque casualty figures is always in the background. You can only wonder how many people are out there thinking of how to do attacks with  casualties in the thousands:

https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2017/07/25/bay-area-isis-supporter-wanted-to-redefine-terror-kill-10000/



> *Bay Area ISIS Supporter Wanted to 'Redefine Terror,' Kill 10,000*
> BY PATRICK POOLE JULY 25, 2017
> 
> A 22-year-old  man from Oakland, California, man was indicted Friday on charges related to material support for ISIS.
> 
> His case represents the 130th ISIS-related arrest in the U.S. since March 2014.
> 
> According to the Justice Department, Amer Sinan Alhaggagi opened up social media accounts on behalf of ISIS and was willing to commit a suicide bombing.
> 
> Even more disturbing, according to the indictment, Alhaggagi said he wanted to "redefine terror" and kill 10,000 people here in a domestic terror attack.
> 
> The indictment also states that Alhaggagi discussed selling poison drugs and attacking a gay club in San Francisco.
> 
> "The whole Bay Area is going to be up in flames," he reportedly said.
> 
> He had also spent time in Yemen, and had planned to flee the country through Mexico following his attacks.
> 
> Alhaggagi was arrested in November 2016 and held on unrelated charges until last week's indictment.
> 
> Regarding the case, the Justice Department announced:
> 
> According to the indictment, Alhaggagi, 22, of Oakland, California, is alleged to have knowingly attempted to provide services and personnel to the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS), between July and November of 2016, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2339B. ISIS is a designated foreign terrorist organization. The indictment alleges that the services Alhaggagi attempted to provide included opening social media accounts for the use, benefit and promotion of ISIS, and that the personnel he provided was himself.
> But the indictment reveals more stunning details about Alhaggagi's plans.
> 
> ABC News 7 in San Francisco, which has been following the case for months, reported:
> 
> The 22-year-old was born in Lodi and grew up in the East Bay. He attended Berkeley High and was living an apartment complex in West Oakland at the time of his arrest. Prosecutors say by the time he was arrested, he had been communicating with a confidential source working for the FBI and they allege Alhaggagi spent months planning attacks and discussing his willingness to kill and be killed for ISIS.
> The government says this was only one of several violent plans Alhaggagi discussed [...]
> 
> In that December 2016 court hearing, prosecutors revealed Alhaggagi talked about plans to sell cocaine laced with rat poison in Bay Area nightclubs. The undercover agent says he was looking for information on the exact mixture of strychnine and cocaine to use in that scheme. He showed the agent an ISIS bomb-making manual he downloaded on a computer and he sent the agent photographs of guns he said he obtained.
> 
> "He then told confidential source number one, 'I live close to San Francisco, that's like the gay capital of the world. I'm going to handle them right, LOL,' meaning laughing out loud. 'I'm going to place a bomb in a gay club, Wallah or by God, I'm going to tear up the city.' And I quote, 'The whole Bay Area is going to be up in flames,'" the federal prosecutor explained to Judge Westmore in his argument to have Alhaggagi detained.
> 
> He also told the court how Alhaggagi took the undercover agent, posing as an ISIS supporter from Salt Lake City, on a tour of the Bay Area including the Cal Berkeley campus. The feds say he wanted to plant backpack bombs at the dorms and went along with the undercover agent to set up a storage unit where he would store supplies for his plans.
> 
> The FBI's investigators say one sign of how serious he was about his support for ISIS came when he showed up at a meeting with the undercover agent at the storage unit with three backpacks to be used to carry bombs.
> 
> Alhaggagi's lawyer released a statement Friday saying, "Amer is not anti-American and does not support ISIS or any other terrorist organization. He is completely nonviolent and he took no actions to harm anyone."
> 
> His family gave the following statement to local media, saying he had never been radicalized:
> 
> We were shocked to learn of the accusations involving Amer. Amer is not and has never been radicalized in any way. He grew up in this country and loves it here. He is peaceful and kind. He was very young and immature when he got involved in the online conversations that are the basis for these accusations. He did not think those conversations were serious and he never had any intent to harm anyone. We love him and continue to fully support him.
> 
> In another ISIS-related case I reported on here at PJ Media earlier this month, a U.S. soldier stationed in Hawaii and arrested for supporting ISIS has now been charged, federal officials said Saturday.
> 
> U.S. Soldier Arrested for Supporting ISIS... https://t.co/a0YCUSynX8
> 
> — DRUDGE REPORT (@DRUDGE_REPORT) July 11, 2017
> Ikaika Erik Kang is accused of offering classified documents and military training to the terror group.
> 
> Federal prosecutors also presented images of Kang swearing allegiance to ISIS, including kissing the group's flag.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> BELGIUM TERROR ATTACK Brussels in lockdown after knife maniac slashes soldiers with a ‘machete’ and is shot dead in city centre
> A 30-year-old man, said to be from Somalia, charged at a group of soldiers in what officials have called a terror attack
> By Gemma Mullin and Chloe Kerr
> 25th August 2017, 8:39 pmUpdated: 26th August 2017, 12:41 am
> 
> The Belgian capital was placed in lockdown with a massive police response following the horror, which came an hour before an almost identical attack on two police officers outside Buckingham Palace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The scene after a man reportedly armed with a 'machete' knifed two soldiers on patrol in Brussels
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A police officer can be seen tending to the 31-year-old on the ground in Brussels city centre
> 
> The soldiers - who suffered injuries to their face and hand - opened fire on the attacker as the 30-year-old man, believed to be from Somalia, charged at them with a large bladed weapon.
> 
> Pictures showed police and medics battling to save the suspected terrorist's life before he was taken to hospital, where he later died.
> Officials said the man had no known extremist links - but the prosecutor's office said: "We believe it is a terrorist attack".
> 
> A spokeswoman for federal prosecutors said the man had shouted "Allahu Akbar" (Arabic for "God is Great") twice during the attack.
> She added: "With the identity that we currently have, it is a 30-year-old man who is not known for terrorist activities."
> 
> Belgian Federal Police spokesman, Jonathan Pfunde, said: "A man armed with a knife attacked a group of soldiers. The soldiers fired at him and neutralised the individual."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police secure the scene in downtown Brussels after a reported attack on Belgian Army soldiers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A tent can be seen set up at the scene after a man was shot dead by soldiers
> 
> 
> It happened at 8.20pm local time (7.20pm BST) near the on Emile-Jacqmain Boulevard, according to local reports.
> 
> Witnesses staying nearby hotels said the area was put into lockdown, while a cordon was set up around the scene.
> 
> Pictures since emerged showing emergency services working on the man, who was later taken to hospital in a critical condition.
> The attack comes just a week after 15 people were murdered in twin terror attacks in Spain.
> 
> The alleged ringleader of the Spain terror attacks Abdelbaki Es Satty was in Brussels shortly before the bombings there in 2016, according to reports.
> 
> Police are reportedly investigating whether he was involved in the ISIS assaults on Brussels airport and a Metro station that killed 32 people on March 22, 2016.
> 
> An hour after the attack in Brussels, a man said to be "armed with a sword" attacked two police officers outside Buckingham Palace in London.
> 
> He was arrested on suspicion of grievous bodily harm and assault on police just after 8.35pm on Friday evening.
> 
> In Brussels, the streets are patrolled by soldiers and regular officers due to a heightened security threat level in the wake of militant attacks in Paris and the Belgian capital in 2015 and 2016.
> 
> In June, troops shot dead a suspected suicide bomber in Brussels' central train station but there were no other casualties, in what authorities treated a terrorist incident.
> 
> Belgian Prime Minister Charles Michel tweeted: "All our support is with our soldiers. Our security services remain on alert. We are following the situation closely."
> 
> Brussels resident Freddie Martyn told Sky News: "I arrived on the scene minutes after the incident happened.
> "As I got there police were running towards me trying to cordon off the area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One side of the road I saw an ambulance with someone in there, which I'm guessing was the soldier because on the other side there was another man in civilian clothing being given CPR."
> 
> He added: "It was all quite frightening."
> 
> Thomas da Silva Rosa tweeted: "A man with a machete attacked soldiers on patrol in Brussels centre, now shot dead."
> Ryan MacDonald wrote: "Sound of gunshot, heavy police presence outside on Boulevard Emile Jacqmain, Brussels."



More on LINK.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> 'WE WILL SEND THEM TO ALLAH'
> Mayor promises anyone who shouts ‘Allahu Akbar’ in Venice will be gunned down
> An Italian mayor has ordered cops to shoot on sight anyone who shouts ‘’Allahu Akbar’’ rather than risk a terror attack
> By Nick Pisa
> 23rd August 2017, 11:23 pm Updated: 25th August 2017, 2:06 am
> 
> *Cops in Venice have been told to shoot potential terrorists on sight.*
> 
> The Italian city’s mayor has ordered them to target anyone shouting “Allahu Akbar”, Arabic for God is Greater.
> 
> Luigi Brugnaro, mayor of the tourist hot spot of Venice, revealed the order at a summer think tank and was applauded by delegates.
> 
> He said: “Anyone who shouts Allahu Akbar in St Mark’s Square can expect to be gunned down by snipers within four paces.
> 
> ‘’We need to increase our security when it comes to terrorism. We had four would be terrorists arrested in Venice a few months ago who wanted to blow up the Rialto bridge.
> 
> ‘’They said they wanted to go and meet Allah so we will send them straight to Allah without having to throw them off the bridge, we will just shoot them.’’
> 
> Last night he added:’’I have never been politically correct, in fact I am politically correct and that’s why we also need a naval blockade against people coming into Italy from north Africa.’’
> 
> The cry Allahu Akbar was first used by the Prophet Muhammad in the seventh century before he went into battle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier this year, four suspect terrorists were arrested in Venice for plotting to set off explosions on the Rialto Bridge
> 
> It was found in notes made by 9/11 ringleader Mohamed Atta after the Twin Tower attacks in New York.
> 
> The document contained the passage: “Shout, ‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers.”
> 
> It has also been used by the killers of Lee Rigby and witnesses reported the Paris Bataclan attackers also yelling the phrase.
> 
> Last night no-one from the Venice police department was available for comment and a spokesman would only say:’’We never discuss operational security.’’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Controversial mayor Luigi Brugnaro has been applauded by delegates for his straight talking towards ISIS



More on LINK.


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## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> TERROR BLAST
> Dramatic moment ‘terror cell’ blow themselves up after being surrounded by Russian special forces
> Cops tracked the four alleged extremists to a house in Psedach, Russia
> By Sam Christie
> 25th August 2017, 12:56 amUpdated: 25th August 2017, 6:57 am
> 
> Police tracked the four alleged extremists to a house in the village of Psedach in south western Russia's Republic of Ingushetia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police tracked the four alleged extremists to a house in the village of Psedach in south western Russia's Republic of Ingushetia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But they began shooting at the officers before blowing themselves up rather than be captured
> 
> They were being hunted by the secret services in connection with the attempted murder of policemen.
> 
> But they began shooting at the officers before blowing themselves up rather than be captured.
> 
> Footage shows how the specialist troops surrounded the lair and began shooting at the property with rifles, machine guns and mortars.
> 
> No one else was injured in the blast, which was captured in footage taken by Russian national anti-terrorism committee
> 
> Realising that the game was up the militants then decided to blow themselves up rather than be captured.
> 
> A video shows how the huge explosion from their suicide bombs ripped the roof off the little cottage.
> 
> No one else was injured in the blast, which was captured in footage taken by Russian national anti-terrorism committee.
> 
> An unnamed Federal Security Service source said: "They were given an opportunity to give themselves up and to stay alive.
> 
> "They blew themselves up, committing suicide - which is forbidden in Islam."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police found an arsenal of weapons inside the house after the explosion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The four dead men were believed to be members of an Islamist terror cell
> 
> 
> The terrorists were believed to be members of the Khunzakh militant group.
> 
> Two of them, Bekhan Soltukiev, 34 and Mikhail Cherbizhev, 31 were wanted for a series of attacks on police officers.
> 
> The special services identified the third man who died in the blast as Khasan Khatsiev.
> 
> They have yet to release the identity of the fourth man killed in the explosion, which completely destroyed the building



Video and more on LINK.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just a reminder that it ain't just ISIL or AQ out there ...


> *Hizballah: Recent Arrests Reveal Pre-Operational Planning*
> NJ Department of Homeland Security, August 21, 2017
> 
> On June 1, federal authorities arrested two individuals tied to Hizballah’s Islamic Jihad Organization (IJO)—which is responsible for planning intelligence-gathering, counterintelligence, and terrorist activities on behalf of the group internationally—for attempting to provide material support, among other charges. Ali Mohamad Kourani conducted surveillance on a variety of targets in New York City, including FBI offices, an Army National Guard facility, a US Secret Service facility, a US Army armory, and John F. Kennedy (JFK) International Airport.
> 
> The recent arrests of Samer el Debek and Ali Mohamad Kourani indicate Hizballah has both the intent and capability to attack the United States and the West. Hizballah operatives continue to gather intelligence on security practices and military technologies in the United States, and possess the technical training and resources to target Western interests. Since 2008, IJO operatives have been implicated in over 20 terrorist attacks and plots globally, including the bombing of an Israeli tour bus in Burgas, Bulgaria, killing six and injuring 32 others, in 2012 ...


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> What happens when an ISIS member returns to Canada? The story of one Toronto-area man
> By Stewart Bell
> National Online Journalist, Investigative
> Global News
> 
> He had been in Syria for almost six months, serving in the morality police of the so-called Islamic State, when he decided he’d seen enough.
> 
> The recruiters had promised an Islamic utopia but it was just a cruel police state, one he wasn’t willing to die for. He was frightened and disillusioned.
> 
> He wanted to go home to Canada.
> 
> He left the city of Manbij during the night, taking a motorcycle north to Jarabulus and crossing into southern Turkey, where he was arrested and deported.
> 
> “All that’s behind me,” the Pakistani-Canadian, lanky and in his 20s, told Global News in an interview after returning to the Toronto area last summer.
> 
> “We all do things that we regret.”
> 
> There are said to be dozens like him across Canada, “returnees” who have spent time in terrorist groups and come home. And with ISIS collapsing in Syria and Iraq, more are expected to turn up.
> 
> They raise obvious security concerns. Are they determined to carry on the fight from Canada — recruiting, fundraising and plotting? Or are they disenchanted and want only to resume ordinary lives?
> 
> “In the worst-case scenario, one or more of those returnees with terrorist and/or combat experience may target elements of Canadian society,” said an RCMP report obtained under the Access to Information Act. “They may use Canada as a base for targeting others, including the United States.”
> 
> How Canada is dealing with returnees is seldom discussed in public. Few are charged, owing to the challenge of proving what they did abroad. And most seek anonymity for understandable reasons.
> 
> But declassified national security documents and interviews with officials, experts and a self-professed Canadian ISIS returnee, offer a unique glimpse into the secretive world.
> 
> “Any individual, of course, that we know is returning from a conflict that we suspect of being involved with a terrorist organization, we will pay very close attention to,” RCMP assistant commissioner James Malizia said in an interview.
> 
> Returnees are “one of our highest priorities,” said Malizia, who is in charge of the RCMP’s national security program. “We’re keeping a close eye on the situation as it unfolds in Syria and Iraq and other conflict zones. Certainly, it’s a concern to us.”
> 
> One of those returnees now lives in a spacious house with a satellite dish and a two-car garage and attends a university in the Toronto region. Because he fears arrest, he agreed to speak to Global News on the condition he not be identified.
> 
> Many of the details of his account could not be verified but Global News has viewed evidence of the RCMP’s interest in him, and those familiar with his story, including an academic expert who has spoken with him, believe he is credible.
> 
> After graduating from a Greater Toronto Area high school in 2012, the Canadian said he traveled to Pakistan, the country he left with his parents at age six, and applied to attend university in Lahore.
> 
> The mosque he attended was affiliated with the armed Islamist group Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and the discussion often turned to the need to liberate Muslim lands. “They talked mostly about jihad,” he said.
> 
> Among the Lashkar devotees, many of whom had fought in Afghanistan, young men were expected to take up arms in northern Pakistan or Syria. Not wanting to battle the Pakistani military, he chose Syria. “They were sending people,” he said, estimating between 10 and 15 had left.
> 
> The recruiter told him what to do, he said. Using his own money, he bought a plane ticket to Istanbul, then made his way to Sanliurfa, a Turkish city near the border, where he met the ISIS facilitators who brought him to Syria.
> 
> It was January 2014 when he arrived in Jarabulus. The first stop was the screening office, where he was asked about his experience and Islamic knowledge, and whether he wanted to be a fighter or suicide bomber.
> 
> He was assigned to the ISIS morality police, known as Al-Hisbah, and sent to Manbij, a city in Aleppo district. Former U.S.  president Barack Obama’s defense secretary, Ash Carter, has called Manbij a key city for foreign fighters and a base for “external operators” plotting attacks in the West.
> 
> ISIS had just taken control of the city from rebel forces and needed the Husbah to impose its brutal, uncompromising vision of an Islamic society on the population. Music, shaving, mixing of the sexes, cigarettes, homosexuality, satellite dishes, alcohol and drugs were among the many things banned.
> 
> The enforcers of this rigid agenda were members of the Hisbah police, like the Canadian. Armed with a Glock pistol that he bought himself, he patrolled the streets ensuring the strict ISIS codes of dress and conduct were obeyed.
> 
> Punishments could be severe. Those caught flirting were locked in a cage for a day, he said. Smoking brought a lashing. Thieves had their fingers or hands amputated. Women whose faces were uncovered would be beaten, the United Nations reported in August 2014. Video shows those accused of homosexuality being thrown off rooftops.
> 
> The most terrifying sentence was for “apostates,” meaning anyone suspected of disloyalty to ISIS beliefs. They were publicly shot or beheaded and then crucified and left for days as a warning to others.
> 
> ISIS ties two men to crucifix in Manbij, Syria, June 2014.An ISIS video obtained from the Middle East Media Research Institute shows one such atrocity in Manbij on June 8, 2014. Two men, described as “Allah’s enemies” and “infidels,” are shown kneeling and blindfolded with their hands tied. After they have been shot dead, their bloodied bodies are taken to a wooden scaffolding and tied with their arms outstretched.
> 
> “People would die for their crimes,” the Canadian said. “It is what it is. You can’t sugar coat it.” But while he acknowledged he had witnessed killings, he said he never killed anyone himself. He insisted he was gentle with people. “I’d be too nice,” he said. “I’d be slack.”
> 
> Several suspected extremists have been arrested in Turkey and returned to Canada but the RCMP report said there were risks associated with receiving information about returnees from countries with poor human rights records.
> 
> “The RCMP should be wary of utilizing information about subject X when it has been provided by a country’s law enforcement forces that are known to use torture, unreasonable detention, or lack of due process,” it said.
> 
> Stopping would-be terrorists before they reach a training camp or combat zone is critical, Malizia said. “The advantage for us is we’re able to intercept someone before they receive the combat skills which would, of course, render them a higher risk if they were to return to Canada.”
> 
> But a lot of them aren’t stopped. By the end of 2015, about 180 extremists “with a nexus to Canada” were active in terrorist groups around the world, including about 100 in Syria and Iraq, according to the most recent government figures.
> 
> The Canadian said it didn’t take him long to see the rot in the heart of ISIS. For all its angry rhetoric about defending Muslims, ISIS killed a lot of them. He said delegations from rival armed factions would arrive in Manbij for talks, only to be shot dead as they were leaving in their vehicles.
> 
> As for ISIS leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, while he sent his fighters on suicide missions, he went to lengths to safeguard his own personal security. And while it was supposed to oppose nationalism, the Canadian said the Arabs who dominated ISIS looked down on South Asians like him.
> 
> “I saw hypocrisy, a lot of hypocrisy,” he said.
> 
> Seeing killings affected him, and he got scared. He knew he would one day be sent to the front lines but he didn’t want to die. He had kept in touch with his Canadian family on the internet and wanted to see them again.
> 
> He spent a week planning his escape, he said. Using Google Maps to plot a route, he reached the Turkish border crossing at Jarabulus and was arrested. He said he showed the Turkish authorities his Canadian passport and Ontario driver’s license. But they wouldn’t let him go back to Canada, he said.
> 
> “They sympathized with me,” he said. They told him the Canadian authorities would prosecute him so they would deport him to Pakistan instead. “Save yourself,” they told him. The Turkish police drove him to the airport and made sure he got on a flight to Pakistan, he said.
> 
> Days after he left, on June 19, 2014, Al-Baghdadi, having captured the Iraqi city of Mosul, declared he had established an Islamic caliphate and that he was its leader. “I was just happy that I was out of there,” the Canadian said.
> 
> He remained in Pakistan for two years before moving back to Toronto. As he got off the plane at Pearson airport in the summer of 2016, he went through a passport check without any trouble. He told the immigration officers he’d been in Pakistan. Since he’d used a Pakistani passport to travel to Syria, the officers had no reason to doubt him.
> 
> But then he made a mistake.
> 
> In posts on social media, he criticized the ISIS leadership. To underscore his point, he said he was an ex-ISIS member. “It slipped out,” he said. Global News independently obtained a copy of the online posts. Before long, two national security investigators were at his door.
> 
> When the RCMP identifies returnees it will “meet with them and get a sense of where they’re at, what their intentions are,” Malizia said. “There are some individuals that return from a conflict zone that may still have motives to now maybe conduct an attack or do something in Canada or in another country.”
> “But there are others that come back from a conflict zone and may be seized with post-traumatic stress disorder or disillusioned,” he said. “And some do come back and decide to re-integrate themselves in society and try to live a normal life.”
> 
> Malizia said if police suspect they were active in a terrorist group, “we’ll fully investigate and if we can lay criminal charges we will.” In addition, police can monitor the social media activities of returnees, revoke their passports and place them on the no-fly list, according to the RCMP foreign fighter report.
> 
> The report also said police “community engagement specialists” should “assist the returnee in engaging with supportive community resources, including those who would help steer the individual away from criminal activities associated with terrorism.”
> 
> The European Commission’s Radicalization Awareness Network said much the same thing in a recent report. “In the long term, authorities and local communities need to work together to resocialize or integrate returnees into society.”
> 
> Around the time the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and RCMP came calling, Mubin Shaikh paid him a visit as well. A U.S. journalist had found the returnee’s contact information in data retrieved in Syria and suggested Shaikh speak to him.
> 
> Shaikh had once flirted with radicalism himself but had turned against it and infamously served as an undercover agent in the Toronto 18, the Al Qaeda-inspired terrorists who plotted attacks in Ontario until their arrests in June 2006. Shaikh went on to earn a master’s degree in policing, intelligence and counter-terrorism and became active in deradicalization.
> 
> After meeting the ex-ISIS member, Shaikh began spending time with him, often weekly, trying to “contain his ideology and to point him in the right direction, gently challenging some of his ideas.”
> 
> Shaikh said he was a “middle space” between the youth and the police. The parents help as well, and he has told his imam. “He’s largely self-deradicalized. He’s not completely there,” Shaikh said. “He’s not a public safety threat.”
> 
> Returnees can fall into a gap, Shaikh said. Police have a mandate to investigate but are often unable to lay charges. That leaves the community to deal with them. But who is best placed to take on the sensitive task?
> 
> “If you decide that they do need some kind of counselling, the people that you send them to, what qualifications do they have? Just because a person is an imam doesn’t qualify them automatically to do this kind of counseling.” Imams and community leaders need training on how to recognize and confront extremists, Shaikh said.
> 
> That is beginning to happen. In March, 20 imams from the Toronto area, Hamilton, Ottawa, and Edmonton attended an RCMP counter-terrorism awareness workshop. They learned about the Salafi jihadist mindset, behavioural indicators, counter-terrorism law and Toronto’s radicalization prevention efforts.
> 
> “Government cannot do it alone,” said Hamid Slimi, who heads the national security committee of the Canadian Council of Imams, which took part in the training. “Therefore, council of imams said we will work with the authorities, including RCMP, to combat any potential threat or any misguided radicalized kind of thinking.”
> 
> He said returnees were a concern. Where will they go when they come back? What if they bring children back with them? What about the ones nobody even knows about? “Who is going to follow up with them? Authorities? Community is not ready for that.”
> 
> The council can play a role but “it doesn’t have a magic wand,” he said. A hotline was to be set up shortly, allowing those with concerns about extremism to speak directly to an imam. Highly qualified people are ready to step up, he said, “but not too many, there is a shortage.”
> 
> “We’re still making baby steps.”
> 
> The ex-ISIS police officer said returnees must be screened and those who pose a threat should be dealt with. But he doesn’t believe the true believers will ever come back. They will die in Syria, he said.
> 
> He insisted Canadians shouldn’t worry about the ones like him who abandoned ISIS. But he said they needed support and guidance. “Don’t keep them isolated,” he said. “You have to have someone to talk to about it.”
> 
> He still struggles, he said.
> 
> “It’s not like you can become deradicalized right away the next day,” he said. But he said he was focused on his life goals. He has a girlfriend, supportive parents and Shaikh, whom he said “loosened the noose around my neck.”
> 
> The RCMP has not charged him, likely because they don’t have enough evidence. “The RCMP’s last message to me was, ‘Stay focused on school,’” he said.
> The investigating officer told him, “If I come back, I will charge you,” he said.
> 
> He is uncertain about his future, not knowing if he might be arrested one day. But he also knows that if he had stayed in Syria, he would be dead like his former comrades. He said he was done with all that. “I have too much to lose now,” he said.
> 
> “I’ve moved on.”
> 
> Stewart.Bell@GlobalNews.ca



Videos and more on Global News LINK.

Another Link (CBC):  Young Canadian ISIS recruit says he saw violence on scale he could never have imagined


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Montreal couple was intent on waging jihad, Crown says
> The Canadian Press
> Published Wednesday, September 13, 2017 11:56AM EDT
> 
> MONTREAL - The Crown says a young Montreal couple was intent on answering the call from Islamic State to wage jihad in the Middle East and had amassed bomb-making materials at their home.
> 
> El Mahdi Jamali, 20, and Sabrine Djermane, 21 are on trial on four charges: attempting to leave Canada to commit a terror act abroad; possession of an explosive substance; facilitating a terrorist act; and committing an act under the direction or for the profit of a terrorist organization.
> 
> They have pleaded not guilty.
> 
> Federal prosecutor Lyne Decarie has previously named 31 police and civilian witnesses her team intends to call as it presents its case.
> 
> Decarie said today a tip to the RCMP in April 2015 led to a swift arrest and several searches.
> 
> Authorities say they found the couple had bags packed with new clothes and had booked plane tickets for a flight to Syria the following month.





More on LINK.

Other related links:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/trial-begins-in-montreal-for-2-people-charged-with-terrorism-related-offences-1.3586099

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-funds-living-together-project-at-school-linked-to-radicalization-1.2815596

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/montreal-teens-facing-terror-charges-to-remain-behind-bars-over-summer-1.2467110

[Edit to fix LINK]


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/645177/France-Hammer-Attack-Allahu-Akbar-Terror-Two-Women-Chalon-sur-Saone-Parsons-Green

Probably didn't like how they were dressed.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> 2 women killed in knife attack at Marseille train station, assailant shot dead
> Incident prompts Paris prosecutor's office to open counterterrorism investigation
> Thomson Reuters Posted: Oct 01, 2017 9:09 AM ET Last Updated: Oct 01, 2017 3:38 PM ET
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police secure the area outside the Saint Charles train station after French soldiers shot and killed a man after he stabbed two women to death in Marseille, France, on Sunday. (Jean-Paul Pelissier/Reuters)
> 
> A man with a knife killed two women at the main train station in the French port city of Marseille on Sunday, in an attack that French authorities were probing for links to Islamic extremism.
> 
> Police sources said the victims were aged 17 and 20, and that one had her throat slit while the other was stabbed in the chest and stomach.
> 
> The assailant was shot dead by a soldier from a military Sentinelle patrol, a force deployed across the country as part of a state of emergency declared after Islamist attacks that began almost two years ago.
> 
> "We have until now managed to avoid such dramatic incidents [in Marseille]. I think it was a terrorist attack and the individual who was killed seems to have had several identities," Marseille mayor Jean-Claude Gaudin told reporters.
> 
> Paris was rocked in 2015 by multiple attacks that killed 130 people. In 2016, a gunman drove a truck into a crowd celebrating Bastille Day in Nice, killing 86 people. Both of these attacks were claimed by ISIS.
> 
> Other countries, including Britain, Germany and Belgium, have also suffered attacks by militants using knives, guns, explosives and driving vehicles at crowds.
> 
> On Sunday, some 200 police officers cordoned off the area and all roads were closed to traffic.
> 
> A witness told Reuters she saw a man take out a knife from his sleeve and then stab a young girl and then a second woman, shouting what could have been "Allahu akbar."
> 
> *'Barbaric act'*
> 
> Speaking in Marseille, Interior Minister Gérard Collomb said the man had initially killed one woman and looked to be running away before returning to attack a second woman and then rush toward soldiers from the Sentinelle force who arrived on the scene quickly and shot him dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two police sources said the attacker had been carrying a butcher's knife, was around 30 years old and of North African  appearance. One source said he was known to police for common law crimes, while another said digital analysis of fingerprints had come up with several aliases.
> 
> "This could be an act of terrorism, but we cannot confirm it fully at this stage," Collomb told reporters.
> 
> The Paris prosecutor's office, which oversees all terrorism cases in France, said it had opened a counterterrorism investigation of the Marseille attack.
> 
> It did not provide further details, including a possible motive.
> 
> Collomb declined to provide any details about the suspect or to identify the victims. He said the assailant's "strange" behaviour of attacking, running away and then returning to strike again was "a point of inquiry."
> 
> French troops are part of a U.S.-led coalition fighting Islamic State in Iraq and Syria and has thousands of soldiers in West Africa fighting al-Qaeda-linked militants, operations that have made these groups urge their followers to target France.
> 
> *Spate of attacks*
> 
> Security forces have increasingly been targeted by militants in knife attacks. A man wielding a knife attacked a soldier in a Paris metro station on Sept. 15.
> 
> President Emmanuel Macron said on Twitter he was "disgusted by this barbaric act" and praised the calmness and efficiency of security forces.
> 
> French lawmakers are due to vote on a much-criticized anti-terrorism law on Tuesday, which would see France come out of its state-of-emergency in November, although some of the powers would be enshrined in law.
> 
> The number of military personnel on the ground is also due to be reduced slightly, although the force is being adapted to make it more mobile and its movements less predictable.
> 
> "The presence of Sentinelle soldiers, their speed and efficiency ensured that the death count was not bigger," police union official Stéphane Battaglia told Reuters.
> 
> With files from The Associated Press
> 
> © Thomson Reuters, 2017



More on LINK.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Um ...
_*"Marseille suspect had been released by police day before knife attack* -- The man, who fatally stabbed two women outside Marseille’s main train station, was held overnight for shoplifting, and then released Saturday, a Paris prosecutor says ..."_


----------



## George Wallace

For those still in "denial":

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Canadian man pleads guilty to terrorism in plot targeting NYC landmarks, subway: unsealed records
> A Mississauga teen is awaiting sentencing in the 2016 plot and will be sentenced this December
> By Shanifa Nasser, CBC News Posted: Oct 06, 2017 5:38 PM ET Last Updated: Oct 07, 2017 6:21 AM ET
> 
> A 19-year-old Mississauga, Ont., man awaiting sentencing after pleading guilty to terrorism offences in a 2016 plot to detonate bombs in New York City in support of ISIS is "vulnerable" and "extremely fragile," his lawyer says.
> 
> Sabrina Shroff, who is representing the man, spoke to CBC News on Friday, saying Abdulrahman El Bahnasawy is doing the best that he can under the circumstances.
> 
> "It's a very difficult situation undoubtedly — not just for him but also for his entire family," Shroff said, emphasizing his young age. "We worry about him daily."
> 
> The charges were made public Friday when the U.S. Attorney's Office (Southern District of New York) revealed the details of the plot that allegedly included detonating bombs in Times Square and in the New York subway system, as well as shootings at various concert venues.
> 
> According to the information unsealed Friday, Abdulrahman El Bahnasawy purchased bomb-making materials and helped secure a cabin within driving distance of New York City for the purpose of building explosive devices.
> 
> Two others, Talha Haroon, a 19-year-old U.S. citizen living in Pakistan, and Russell Salic, a 37-year-old Philippine citizen, were also charged in connection with the alleged plot. The two were arrested outside of the U.S. and the hope, according to the release, is that they will be extradited to the U.S. for prosecution.
> 
> *'These Americans need an attack'*
> 
> El Bahnasawy, who has been in custody since his arrest by the FBI in May 2016, pleaded guilty on Oct. 13, 2016. He is the only one of the three to have pleaded guilty so far.
> 
> Details of the charges were made public Friday when the U.S. Attorney's Office (Southern District of New York) unsealed the terrorism charges.
> 
> According to the allegations, El Bahnasawy and Haroon plotted to carry out the attacks in support of ISIS during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.
> 
> In preparing for the attacks, the two communicated electronically with an undercover FBI agent posing as an ISIS supporter.
> 
> In the course of their communication, they allegedly declared their allegiance to ISIS and expressed their intent to carry out attacks resembling the recent Paris and Brussels attacks.
> 
> "These Americans need an attack," El Bahnasawy allegedly stated to the officer, saying he aspired "to create the next 9/11."
> 
> El Bahnasawy allegedly told the undercover officer that he was in contact with an ISIS affiliate about attack plans officially sanctioned by a branch of ISIS active in Pakistan, and introduced Haroon to the agent.
> 
> In May 2016, El Bahnasawy, while in Canada, purchased an "array of bomb-making materials," including 18 kilograms of hydrogen peroxide, a key ingredient in making improvised explosive devices. Batteries, thermometers, aluminum foil and Christmas lights were also purchased.
> 
> *'A day that will change history'*
> 
> That same month, El Bahnasawy informed the agent that he had been in communication with Salic, known to him as "Abu Khalid" and "the doctor," about acquiring more funding for the attacks. El Bahnasawy provided the man's contact information to the agent to facilitate the transfer.
> 
> On May 11, $423 US was sent from the Philippines to help fund the plan, the U.S. Justice Department says.
> 
> Meanwhile, El Bahnasawy shipped the bomb-making materials to the United States and allegedly told the agent he wanted to practice shooting at the cabin, which would need refrigeration for the purpose of making explosives.
> 
> On May 12, the undercover agent sent Salic a photo of the hydrogen peroxide purchased by El Bahnasawy. It's alleged the man expressed to the agent that he would pray for the success of the attack.
> 
> On May 20, Haroon deemed Times Square the "perfect spot" for the attack, the release alleges. In the course of his communications with the agent, the man allegedly discussed attacking as early as Memorial Day (May 30, 2016), saying, "that's a day that will change history."
> 
> *Public never at risk, RCMP says*
> 
> El Bahnasawy travelled to the New York City area on May 21, 2016, in preparation for staging and ultimately carrying out the attacks, allegedly with Haroon.
> 
> U.S. law enforcement monitored the trip in co-ordination with Canadian law enforcement and El Bahnasawy was arrested that night in Cranford, N.J.
> 
> The two others were subsequently arrested — one in Pakistan and the other in the Philippines.
> 
> El Bahnasawy pleaded guilty last October to seven charges, including:
> 
> Conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction.
> 
> Conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries.
> 
> Conspiring to bomb a place of public use and public transport.
> 
> Conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists.
> 
> Attempted provision and provision of material support and resources to terrorists.
> 
> Conspiracy to provide material support and resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization, i.e., ISIS.
> 
> Attempted provision and provision of material support and resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization, i.e., ISIS.
> 
> He is scheduled to be sentenced on Dec. 12, 2017.
> 
> Asked if El Bahnasawy will appeal, Shroff would not confirm but did say, "In every terrorism case in which the United States plays some role, there's always a concern about the length an undercover [agent] will go."
> 
> In a statement to CBC News Friday, the RCMP said that at no time was the safety or security of the public at risk during the investigation.
> 
> "Abdulrahman El-Bahnasawy is a Canadian citizen who was part of an international plot to commit terrorist attacks in the United States and the charges are a direct result of his involvement and role," the statement said.



More on LINK.


----------



## Journeyman

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For those still in "denial"


Who? And what do you believe is being denied?   :dunno:


----------



## George Wallace

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Who? And what do you believe is being denied?   :dunno:



That it is not happening here.


----------



## Scott

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That it is not happening here.



Who in the hell is saying that?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Egypt isn't exactly the west.   Maybe west light? West friendly?

Egypt hunts for killers after *mosque attack leaves at least 235 dead*
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/24/africa/egypt-sinai-mosque-attack/index.html



> The Egyptian military kicked off a hunt for the attackers of a Sufi mosque in the northern Sinai, a military source said, combing the area of Friday's assault that killed at least 235 people -- thought to be the deadliest terror attack on the country's soil.
> President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi vowed to respond to the attack on al Rawdah mosque with "brute force." Some 109 others were injured, Egyptian state media reported.
> No one has claimed responsibility, but the strike bears the hallmarks of an attack by ISIS.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Up to 305 people dead including 27 children.

25-30 attackers wearing military uniforms.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And these are the kind of barbarians the Liberals will welcome back into the country if they're (JJT spits) fellow Canadian citizens.  Yeah, that will turn out well.

 :sarcasm:


----------



## daftandbarmy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And these are the kind of barbarians sympathetic political supporters the Liberals will welcome back into the country if they're (JJT spits) fellow Canadian citizens.  Yeah, that will turn out well.
> 
> :sarcasm:



There, FTFY


----------



## jollyjacktar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> There, FTFY



And so you did.


----------



## George Wallace

An interesting read, that may explain a few things:



> Monday, December 11, 2017
> What the War Over Jerusalem is Really Abourt
> Posted by Daniel Greenfield
> 
> Hamas has announced that President Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has opened the “gates of hell.” Its Muslim Brotherhood parent has declared America an “enemy state.”
> 
> 
> The Arab League boss warned that the Jerusalem move “will fuel extremism and result in violence.” The Jordanian Foreign Minister claimed that it would “trigger anger” and “fuel tension.”
> 
> “Moderate” Muslim leaders excel at threatening violence on behalf of the “extremists”.
> 
> The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) warned that recognizing Jerusalem will trigger an Islamic summit and be considered a "blatant attack on the Arab and Islamic nations."
> 
> The last time the OIC was this mad, someone drew Mohammed. And wasn’t stoned to death for it.
> 
> According to the Saudi ambassador, it will “heighten tensions”. The Deputy Prime Minister of Islamist Turkey called it a “major catastrophe”. And the leader of the largest Muslim country in Europe, France's Emmanuel Macron "expressed concern" that America will “unilaterally recognize Jerusalem."
> 
> PLO leaders and minions meanwhile made it quite clear that now the dead peace process is truly dead.
> 
> The Palestinian Authority’s boss warned that recognizing Jerusalem will “destroy the peace process”. The PLO’s envoy in D.C. threatened that it would be the “final lethal blow” and “the kiss of death to the two-state solution”. A top PA advisor claimed it “will end any chance of a peace process.”
> 
> A day later, the peace process is still as alive and as dead as it ever was.
> 
> Since the chance of a peace process is about the same as being hit by lightning while scoring a Royal Flush, that “chance” doesn’t amount to anything. The peace process has been deader than Dracula for ages. And even a PLO terrorist should know that you can’t threaten to kill a dead hostage.
> 
> The only kiss of death here came from Arafat.
> 
> Peace wasn’t killed though. It was never alive. Because a permanent peace is Islamically impossible.
> 
> "The world will pay the price," warned Mahmoud Habash, the Palestinian Authority’s Supreme Sharia judge.
> 
> Habash isn’t just the bigwig of Islamic law, he’s also the Islamic adviser to the leader of the Palestinian Authority. And Abbas, the terror organization’s leader, was there when Habash made his remarks.
> 
> Previously Habash had declared that the Kotel, the Western Wall of the fallen Temple, the holiest site in Judaism, “can never be for non-Muslims. It cannot be under the sovereignty of non-Muslims.”
> 
> While the official warnings from the Palestinian Authority, the Arab League and assorted other Islamic organizations have claimed that recognizing Jerusalem threatens the non-existent peace process, Habash had in the past had made it quite clear that the issue wasn’t land, it was Jihad.
> 
> “The struggle over this land is not merely a struggle over a piece of land here or there. Not at all. The struggle has the symbolism of holiness, or blessing. It is a struggle between those whom Allah has chosen for Ribat and those who are trying to mutilate the land of Ribat," Habash had declared.
> 
> Ribat means that Israel is a frontier outpost between the territories of Islam and the free world. The Muslim terrorists who call themselves “Palestinians” have, according to the Abbas adviser, been chosen for “Ribat” to stand guard on the Islamic frontier and expand the territories of Islam.
> 
> The sense of Ribat is that the Jihadists may not yet be able to win a definitive victory, but must maintain their vigilance for the ultimate goal, which a Hadith defines as performing Ribat “against my enemy and your enemy until he abandons his religion for your religion."
> 
> That is what’s at stake here.
> 
> 
> It’s not about a “piece of land here or there”, as the PA’s top Sharia judge clarifies, it’s a religious war. And Israel is not just a religious war between Muslims and Jews, but a shifting frontier in the larger war between Islam and the rest of the world. It’s another territory to be conquered on the way to Europe. And Europe is another territory to be conquered on the way to America.
> 
> There can be no peace in a religious war. Nor is there anything to negotiate.
> 
> “It isn't possible to compromise on or negotiate over Jerusalem,” Habash had said. “In politics there can be compromises here and there... In politics there can be negotiation. However, in matters of religion, faith, values, ethics, and history, there can be no compromises.”
> 
> There’s an extremely thin line in Islamic theocracy between politics and religion. But what Habash is really saying is that there might be room to negotiate how many times a week the garbage truck comes to pick up the trash, but not who gives him the orders. Islamic supremacism is non-negotiable.
> 
> The Supreme Sharia judge warned Trump that moving the embassy is “a declaration of war on all Muslims.” Why all Muslims? Because the “Palestinians” are a myth. Islamic conquests are collective.
> 
> And it’s not as if any of the Muslim leaders disagree.
> 
> Why is Jerusalem their business? It’s not empathy for the “Palestinians”. Kuwait ethnically cleansed huge numbers of them. They aren’t treated all that much better in other Arab Muslim countries.
> 
> It’s not about them. The Muslim settlers in Israel are just there as “Ribat”. They’re the frontier guard of the Islamic conquest. Much like the Sharia patrols in the No-Go Zones of Europe or the Jihadists in Kashmir, the Rohingya in Burma and all the other Islamic Volksdeutsche variants of occupying colonists.
> 
> Sunni may fight Shiite. Muslim countries, tribes and clans may war with each other. But the land they’re fighting over belongs to all of them collectively.
> 
> It can never belong to non-Muslims. That is the essence of Islam where conquest is religion.
> 
> That’s true of Jerusalem. And of the entire world.
> 
> That is what is truly at stake in the war over Jerusalem. When countries refuse to move their embassies to Jerusalem, they are submitting to Sharia law and Islamic supremacism. The issue at stake is the same one as drawing Mohammed. It’s not about a “piece of land”. It’s about the supremacy of Islam.
> 
> Refusing to move the embassy doesn’t prevent violence. Islamic terrorism continues to claim lives in Jerusalem. And Islamic violence has been a constant before Israel liberated Jerusalem or before there was even a free Israel. The Arab League, the Jordanians, the Saudis and the rest of the gang aren’t promising an end to the violence. Instead they warn that if we don’t obey, it will grow worse.
> 
> That’s not diplomacy. It’s a hostage crisis.
> 
> President Trump made the right decision by refusing to let our foreign policy be held hostage. We don’t win by giving in to terrorists.
> 
> We win by resisting them. Or else we’ll have to live our lives as hostages of Islamic terror.
> 
> 
> Jerusalem is a metaphor. Every free country has its own Jerusalem. In America, it’s the First Amendment. Our Jerusalem is not just a piece of land, it’s a value. And the Islamic Jihad seeks to intimidate us into giving it up until, as the Hadith states, we abandon our religion for Islam.
> 
> Moving the embassy to Jerusalem will do much more for America than it will for Israel.
> 
> The Israelis already know where their capital is. We need to remember where we left our freedom. Islamic terrorists win when they terrorize us into being too afraid to do the right thing.
> 
> President Trump sent a message to the terrorists that America will not be terrorized.
> 
> Previous administrations allowed the terrorists to decide where we put our embassy. But Trump has made it clear that we won’t let Islamic terrorists decide where we put our embassies, what cartoons we will draw or how we live our lives. That is what real freedom means.



http://sultanknish.blogspot.ca/2017/12/what-war-over-jerusalem-is-really-about.html

The moving of the US Embassy is actually a moot point, in that although officially it is in Tel Aviv, the actual work is done at their offices in Jerusalem.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The Arab League boss warned that the Jerusalem move “will fuel extremism and result in violence.” The Jordanian Foreign Minister claimed that it would “trigger anger” and “fuel tension.”



Eating the ears instead of the ass of a chocolate easter bunny will fuel Islamic extremism and violence.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Taliban attacker driving ambulance packed with explosives kills 95 in Kabul



https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/27/asia/afghanistan-kabul-blast-intl/index.html


----------



## Edward Campbell

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/01/27/asia/afghanistan-kabul-blast-intl/index.html




It's a tragedy, without a doubt, but is Kabul really part of the "West?"

_____

PS: See Stalin for the definition of "tragedy" versus "statistic."

______

PPS: With even less sensitivity, in my view 95 dead anywhere East of Vienna is a statistic.


----------



## jollyjacktar

They have been targeting Westerners in these attacks the last couple of weeks, so there is a nexus to some degree.


----------



## Jarnhamar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It's a tragedy, without a doubt, but is Kabul really part of the "West?"



I'd say yes and no. It may sound like I'm back tracking but hear me out  ;D 

Geographically? Not at all. But I think Kabul is westernized (maybe?).







Their soldiers (and police) are trained and mentored by the west. Their uniforms and boots are supplied by the west. Using M16s,M4s, hummers and other armored vehicles. Western doctrine. Plus all the westerners working out of there military and civilian, all the western companies and businesses operating out of there, all the head quarters and the billions (or trillions?) of dollars the west has tied up there.  While Kabul is in the middle east I'd say attacks there are essentially attacks _on_ the west. But yes it's not 'in the west'.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I was being a little snitty (is that word?), but I was thinking of "*The West*," which, in my mind, includes Japan and Hong Kong, even though it is part of China, and Singapore and Israel but not, necessarily, Turkey or Kenya or even Ukraine or EU members like Bulgaria which used to be, when I was a boy, part of what we called the "Near East." They were in Europe, but not really "European," being either Slavic or Balkan or both and, therefore, not sharing much of the common "heritage" and "culture" of the West.

India doesn't want to be part of *The West* but it no longer has much of a choice ~ it's political ambition, in the 1950s and '60s, of leading a "non-aligned movement" of nations that were not clients of either the USA or the USSR died, in the 1990s, with the USSR.

China is more tightly tied to *The West*, even though Donald Trump seems intent on making it an enemy, than is semi-European, Christian Russia. 

*The West* is, I guess, more of an idea than a geographic expression ... the Arabs, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the other "Stans" don't see, to me, to fit ...


----------



## Kirkhill

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I was being a little snitty (is that word?), but I was thinking of "*The West*," which, in my mind, includes Japan and Hong Kong, even though it is part of China, and Singapore and Israel but not, necessarily, Turkey or Kenya or even Ukraine or EU members like Bulgaria which used to be, when I was a boy, part of what we called the "Near East." They were in Europe, but not really "European," being either Slavic or Balkan or both and, therefore, not sharing much of the common "heritage" and "culture" of the West.
> 
> India doesn't want to be part of *The West* but it no longer has much of a choice ~ it's political ambition, in the 1950s and '60s, of leading a "non-aligned movement" of nations that were not clients of either the USA or the USSR died, in the 1990s, with the USSR.
> 
> China is more tightly tied to *The West*, even though Donald Trump seems intent on making it an enemy, than is semi-European, Christian Russia.
> 
> *The West* is, I guess, more of an idea than a geographic expression ... the Arabs, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the other "Stans" don't see, to me, to fit ...



Just read this ....

I get your position E.R.  but I think Jarnhamar has a point.  Kabul may not be in THE WEST.... but... there are Westerners in Kabul.

Those Westerners are not just people born in your WEST but include many Western Afghans.   Just like Britain had many Romanized Brits  and Protestant Britain had many Roman Catholics.

Over time those influences have effect on the course of the community.  I made reference on another thread today about Jordan, India, Malaya etc.  I could add Hong Kong, Singapore and reprobates like Libya and Iraq.   All of those countries institutions were influenced by people in forces like the Trans-Jordan Field Force and the Arab Legion.

And on the subject of influence (bad segue but it will do) 

An interesting article on Jews, Arabs and Americans from a Moroccan perspective.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/dont-ignore-kushners-quiet-mideast-gains-24256


----------



## a_majoor

The argument may be more useful if we look at Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations" construct.

"The West" is generally Christianized and Anglo/American European in culture and population. Russia is a separate civilization since they are Slavic and Orthodox. China and India are two separate and distinct civilizations, even though they are tied economically to "The West" and India is also culturally tied to "The Anglosphere". There are also many other "Civilizations", some of which are particularistic (think of Ethiopia) and others related to the major civilization in their area, but through geography, trade or other circumstances, are aligned with someone else (Japan *could* be considered an offshoot of the Chinese civilization, but is closely aligned with the West as a Maritime power).

Places like Afghanistan (or Ukraine and the Baltic States, or Iraq) are in the hinterlands between civilizations. Afghanistan straddles the only practical land route between China, Russia, India and Iran, all of which are separate civilizations in the Huntington construct. The West is actually there either at our peril, or, like England since Elizabethan times, seeking to tip the balance between various contesting parties to advance Western interests or at least frustrate the others. I'll leave it to wiser people to decide which is the correct interpretation.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'll put this here as he was caught in the US, born in the US and has family/educational ties to Winnipeg where he once lived.  His conviction stems from operations in Afghanistan with AQ.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/muhanad-al-farekh-terrorosm-sentencing-family-1.4554488

Mods, please feel free to move as you see fit if necessary.


----------



## Good2Golf

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'll put this here as he was caught in the US, born in the US and has family/educational ties to Winnipeg where he once lived.  His conviction stems from operations in Afghanistan with AQ.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/manitoba/muhanad-al-farekh-terrorosm-sentencing-family-1.4554488
> 
> Mods, please feel free to move as you see fit if necessary.



Can he still get $10.5M and other Government-of-Canada provided rehabilitative loving and caring if he stays in the U.S.?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Can he still get $10.5M and other Government-of-Canada provided rehabilitative loving and caring if he stays in the U.S.?



Well, maybe a photo op next time the PM visits the US.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Canadian convicted of terrorism in the US is asking for a second chance.  I hope the Americans say, No.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/canadian-convicted-of-terrorism-in-u-s-asks-for-2nd-chance-1.4561306


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well, he is right about one thing: Islam ... at least a more radical part of it ... would have prevented the life of drugs he lived.

If I recall, the Taliban and ISIS solution for drug use is burial alive in the middle of a sports field on Friday after prayers. That certainly prevents continued use.

Now the real questions here are: When will he get Global Affairs to intercede and bring him back to Canada? How many days will he spend in Canadian jail before release? When will he meet the PM after his release - for photo op? And then, how many million dollars will we give him?


----------



## Jarnhamar

What is it about Islam that makes people so violent and not just want to kill non-believers but actually try to?


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What is it about Islam that makes people so violent and not just want to kill non-believers but actually try to?



Nothing. Let's face it, if Islam is the problem.. the world would be far far more violent.

I'd be asking what's is it with a person's social, economic and/or psychological state that makes them want to kill others.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I don't think you're facing the reality of what's going on in the middle east and much of Europe.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't think you're facing the reality of what's going on in the middle east and much of Europe.



Why do you say this? My previous comment was not polite.


----------



## mariomike

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> My previous comment was not polite.



I thought it was polite.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Why do you say this? My previous comment was not polite.



Being a Muslim convert I think you're (understandably) biased towards Islam. I know it's insulting and I apologize for it but I've said it in the past that I think you've been exposed to a Scientology-lite version of Islam or see it through rose colored lenses. Where you see a few minor isolated incidents involving Islam I see constant example after example of attack after attack.  Culture clash after culture clash.

Of course Islam isn't the sole proprietor of evil actions around the world but to me it seems overwhelmingly and disproportionately at the center of it. All over the world. It happens so much that it's not even news worthy. An ambulance packed with explosives just took out 95 dead 158 injured in January, Kabul. Yawn. 

The above story, another kid lured away by Jihad. He read about Islam and wanted to go kill people.  You just don't read about all these christian kids leaving their parents to goto murder people. People aren't going to bible camp planning to detonate bombs in Time Square.  Of course there are examples of Christian nut bars but again, very very disproportionate to what we're seeing in the news.  Canadian Jews aren't flying over to Israel and sawing the heads off Palestine prisoners. Wiccans aren't going to Scotland and burning people to death.  I won't even get into the shit show that's going in in European countries.

There's 58 pages here of Islamic terrorism in the west and 5 of non-Islamic terrorism. Notice it's not even X or Y terrorism, it's everyone else combined.
That is why I say what I say.


----------



## jollyjacktar

ER, IIRC, pointed out though if you were to go back in time to different periods, it was "this" group or "that" society who were running amok, hacking and slashing.

At this particular juncture, it seems as if some elements of Islam are off their rockers and running amok.  

Seeing as it's varied on who the retards of the moment are throughout history perhaps it's more of a species flaw that has been manipulated by con artists ready to act.  This week, it's Islam week.

 :dunno:


----------



## Jed

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ER, IIRC, pointed out though if you were to go back in time to different periods, it was "this" group or "that" society who were running amok, hacking and slashing.
> 
> At this particular juncture, it seems as if some elements of Islam are off their rockers and running amok.
> 
> Seeing as it's varied on who the retards of the moment are throughout history perhaps it's more of a species flaw that has been manipulated by con artists ready to act.  This week, it's Islam week.
> 
> :dunno:




I would say your 'week' timeframe is a little skewed. A time span crossing 2 or three generations is probably more accurate.  I would pile on with Jarnhamar's opinion.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jed said:
			
		

> I would say your 'week' timeframe is a little skewed. A time span crossing 2 or three generations is probably more accurate.  I would pile on with Jarnhamar's opinion.



I was not being literal with "week".  But, seeing as you went "there", l think you'll find that three generations ago, it was Germany that we had issues with.  Not Islam.

https://isogg.org/wiki/How_long_is_a_generation%3F_Science_provides_an_answer


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I was not being literal with "week".  But, seeing as you went "there", l think you'll find that three generations ago, it was Germany that we had issues with.  Not Islam.



And some still do.

I find it amazing that this Government seems to think that they can "rehabilitate" jihadists, and that they can make a meaningful contribution to our society; all the while still hunting down 80, 90 and 100 year old "Nazis" who may have come here and lived productive lives....only to be deported if found out.  This runs rather contrary to Justin's "A Canadian is a Canadian, is a Canadian" when you realize the there have been worse regimes than the Nazis when it comes to committing genocide.  Look a the Communist Regimes of Stalin and Mao, and the more recent acts of ISIS.  The Nazis pale in comparison.  

Disclaimer:  I am in no way defending what Hitler's Nazis did; just pointing out that there have been far worse since his demise.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And well before that too.  Genghis Kahn comes to mind.  He was so efficient at depopulation, l have read, that it changed the climate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1350272/Genghis-Khan-killed-people-forests-grew-carbon-levels-dropped.html

I think it is fair to say that people have always been bad for and to one another.

I do agree that l believe the current GoC are RTFO if they think curing any Jihadi assholes who come home is possible.  I think that mineral therapy will be the only effective method of cure.


----------



## dapaterson

Religious leaders refuse to stop child marriage.  Girls as young as ten are being married off to much older men, but religious leaders are working to stop any efforts to change the law.

Whoops.  Wait a minute.  That's Christians in Kentucky...

https://insiderlouisville.com/metro/bipartisan-child-marriage-bill-faces-roadblock-from-conservative-family-foundation/


----------



## AbdullahD

Yes 58 pages or more if you count other threads on this site, no doubt many more.

But you have made an allegation which implies my interpretation and understanding of Islam is "watered down" or "modernized" and biased. Which makes me wonder how many of my replies to your query or the queries of others you have actually read. A lot of my replies center around evidence from scholars from hundreds of years ago or are extremely main stream in the Islamic world, ie followed by thousands and thousands of Muslims. Many of the scholars, who I reference have never EVER been accused of watering down or modernizing Islam.. yet you seem to feel they did by launching those allegations at me.

So i as always enjoy your critical eye, but it seems, as if the burden of proof for me is far higher then it is for you.. simply because you view me as a biased convert, with no real world exposure. So I admit No, I have not seen battle or blood, but I do not admit to being ignorant unless you care to show me where I have shown you that I am so. Then I will concede and leave it be and comment no more.

I argue that social, economic, monetary and psychological issues are what truly fuel radicalization and religion, politics and ideologies are simply the excuse that is used to whip up the masses to see red.

I blame Muslims for Muslim issues ie Isis the Taliban etc. I don't sit here and whine about who invaded those Muslim countries or tried over throw them or funded different interest groups. Which I could, but to me it is a moot point because everyone will answer for himself before God and should do so in this life too for the decisions they make. So of course I know we will argue in circles, but I for one, think the world needs it.. even if we never agree.. but let's just try to keep it cleaner. If you feel I truly am these things then display your proof or reasons and I'll counter and we either stop or move on.

You are a wise person and not afraid to be critical of things you think deserve it.. I just hope I can make you critical of these idiot Muslims who do these acts and not Islam. It's an uphill battle, with every disadvantage for me but I think you deserve me annoying you 

Abdullah

Ps it was rude Mike  ha ha lol


----------



## Jed

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Yes 58 pages or more if you count other threads on this site, no doubt many more.
> 
> But you have made an allegation which implies my interpretation and understanding of Islam is "watered down" or "modernized" and biased. Which makes me wonder how many of my replies to your query or the queries of others you have actually read. A lot of my replies center around evidence from scholars from hundreds of years ago or are extremely main stream in the Islamic world, ie followed by thousands and thousands of Muslims. Many of the scholars, who I reference have never EVER been accused of watering down or modernizing Islam.. yet you seem to feel they did by launching those allegations at me.
> 
> So i as always enjoy your critical eye, but it seems, as if the burden of proof for me is far higher then it is for you.. simply because you view me as a biased convert, with no real world exposure. So I admit No, I have not seen battle or blood, but I do not admit to being ignorant unless you care to show me where I have shown you that I am so. Then I will concede and leave it be and comment no more.
> 
> I argue that social, economic, monetary and psychological issues are what truly fuel radicalization and religion, politics and ideologies are simply the excuse that is used to whip up the masses to see red.
> 
> I blame Muslims for Muslim issues ie Isis the Taliban etc. I don't sit here and whine about who invaded those Muslim countries or tried over throw them or funded different interest groups. Which I could, but to me it is a moot point because everyone will answer for himself before God and should do so in this life too for the decisions they make. So of course I know we will argue in circles, but I for one, think the world needs it.. even if we never agree.. but let's just try to keep it cleaner. If you feel I truly am these things then display your proof or reasons and I'll counter and we either stop or move on.
> 
> You are a wise person and not afraid to be critical of things you think deserve it.. I just hope I can make you critical of these idiot Muslims who do these acts and not Islam. It's an uphill battle, with every disadvantage for me but I think you deserve me annoying you
> 
> Abdullah
> 
> Ps it was rude Mike  ha ha lol


I am critical of Islam but not in a harsh and condemning way, however I am very condemning of terrorist extremism which, to me in this day and age seems to be predominantly by muslims.


----------



## Jarnhamar

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Yes 58 pages or more if you count other threads on this site, no doubt many more.



Exactly my point.

Believe me when I say I do consider and read your replies very closely and consider them from a couple different perspectives.

I don't think your understanding of Islam is watered down. I think you know a lot about Islam. Probably more than most converts AND 'from birth' Muslims. I'd be confident considering you an expert in scholarly Islam.  
There's a great video of Milo Yanopolous who visited Australia and was on a talk show with a Muslim woman who was going to put gay white Milo in his place about Islam. The only problem is she had no idea what the hell she was talking about and Milo contentiously corrected her and pointed out Muslim rules and laws that she had no idea about.  You on the other hand are well read and learned a lot about Islam, it would be interesting to see you and Milo debate. I think people take Religion and plug and play the aspects they like. 

You've already admitted to approaching, learning  about and accepting Islam as a scholar. You like the scholar aspects of it I believe you said.  I think you were able to pick and choose what sounds good to you and what doesn't, literature wise. When I say Scientology-lite I simply mean you, as you say, haven't attended mosques where they're talking about murdering jews or infidels. You haven't been exposed to the fire and violence that so many seem to be exposed to. And it shows in your correspondence and attitude IMO.  But we know some people are the opposite. We see lots of stories of people finding Islam then deciding to make war against the west, leave home to murder people for ISIS or plan to blow up train stations.   

My personal belief is I think there is something particular about Islam that results in a more than average number of followers becoming violent and radical. I don't know what it is but I think there is more to it than just people with mental illness.

I accept that I'm quite biased against Islam and closed minded when it comes to religion (_especially_ to Islam). I'm still allowed to be, so far. And I suspect were I not allowed to be critical of Islam I would find you in my corner defending me.  

Asking me for evidence of my reasons isn't important. What you should ask me for is evidence that _you_could  give me that would change my mind (if any). 
And I think at this point it would be none.   Just too many disproportionate examples to change my mind at this stage.


Question for you, do you still think Shari law would be a good thing to bring to Canada?


With regard to keeping things cleaner I understand it was insulting (sorry) but do believe I wasn't trying to make a jab at you or personal attack. I'm being candid with my beliefs and observations.


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## Fishbone Jones

A problem I see with this whole Islam vs Everyone else is this.

With other nations, religion, politics and ideologies are for the most part separate. We deal with these items as separate. There is some crossover, but essentially they are separate issues. We can make laws that have no religious connotations, we elect politicians (mostly) without looking at religion. Religious groups are allowed to put their spin on election issues but it is the will of the people that prevails. Our politics, in the main, are based on Christian values. Those values allow us to guide society with laws that involve right and wrong, rules of evidence, fair trials and meeting your accuser. We have evolved this system through the Magna Carta and rules of Common Law. Religion WAS and important part of our society only a few hundred years ago. We also burned people alive. The Spanish Inquisition was every bit as violent and damaging as ISIS. During the dark ages, the church held almost supreme control, even over the emperors. Politics and life was lived according to what the local priest said, because the only book available was the Bible and only the church could read it and as a god fearing individual, you did what the priest said because he took direction from the way he interpreted the Bible. What happened next was that King James decided everyone should be able to read the Bible, so he had it printed in English and made people learn to read. The church lost control, people became educated and civilisation prospered and passed beyond the absolute authority of the church and into the light of human conscience. We came to see religion as something that just made you, in your own mind, be a better person and something to provide succor in during times and trials of human faith and nature. The church, in practice, does not interfere with the making of laws or the governance of the people or the way people make their living. You are no longer required to 'donate' half your crop to the church, etc.

With Islam, there is no separation. The church is the state and the imams are the power behind the state. Religion is woven into every action, every thought and every decision made by an Islamist. And as with Christians earlier, your ISIS fighters, AQ, et al, follow what they are told to do because the imam tells them what the Koran says and they must follow. Hate is taught. Five times a day they are lectured by their imam. They grow up in a twenty mile area that they never leave and know little of the outside world. Times are tough and lean. When you grow up, being told five times a day that the faceless infidel from across the seas is coming to destroy you and your religion and way of life you head off for jihad. It just what you do, according to the Koran and imam. Religion IS politics. Religion IS lifestyle. Religion IS the law. Having said that, look at the majority of educated Islamists, in the west. For the most part, there was never a problem in Canada, or most of the western world because they are educated and can use their own minds and figure thing out themselves. They are still pious. They still worship within their doctrine, but they don't take the Koran as literal. Just like we no longer take the Bible as literal and slay everyone not of your faith or denomination. Islam appears to be running, existence wise about 700 years behind Christianity. They are currently going through the same thing we did around 700 years ago, when the church ran the world. As was then, more are becoming educated and reducing the imams and mosques influence on them. I see honour killings in Canada. I noticed something though. Might or might not just be me with crazy theories. Honour killings were not a common occurance here. Muslims that came to Canada had educations. Beyond the odd weird case, it didn't happen here. We started taking in people from villages and abject poverty, who'd never seen a tv or heard a radio and dropped them in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver. They are terrified. And where do they go for comfort and safety? To the mosque. If you have an imam that teaches strictly by the word of the Koran, that person will remain as uneducated and following the rules of his religion to the hilt, because the imam said so. There is also the peer pressure. We now have hundreds of thousands of uneducated Islamic refugees and illegal immigrants. Police intelligence from Saskatchewan indicates a growth of illegal criminal gangs from amongst these groups. One summer of unabated illegal crossings and we have criminal migrant gangs, preying on their own and citizens of Canada. Because the Koran says it's OK to screw over the infidel. THAT is their law. And their law was written with divine intervention and therefore supersedes the laws of Canada or man.

As the Christians did, they will not solve this until the mosques and imams lose political control of the populous and they come firmly under the guidance of an elected government that is serious about taking power from the church. And that is something the west cannot do. We can help when they ask, but this is something the muslims need to do for themselves. It cannot, under any circumstance, be tied or tainted by anything that is not islamic. It is 100% on the modern muslims to sort out the problems of their brethren, educate them and get them into, at least, the 20th century.

OK, that was way too long. Sorry.

Just my  :2c: the way I see it.


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## Kat Stevens

One of the biggest problem with Islam, as opposed to the bigger Christian denominations, is that there is no “central authority” that hands down to the official policy. In Islam, any half baked loon can call himself a preacher, hang out a shingle, and start spewing his own interpretation of the book, complete with his own biases. It’s easy to convince the uneducated, or the just plain stupid, that your way is the only way, con men have done it for millennia.


----------



## YZT580

Well said, Recce guy.  That is as good an explanation as |I have read anywhere.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

With the exception of course of that Muslim terrorist to be who was an Engineering student at the masters level in Montreal, but decided to collude to blow a train in Ontario - then refuse to recognize the courts of Canada, stating Allah and the Koran as sole proper authorities over him. Oh! And the two brothers who turned out to be the Boston bombers, who were college level educated in North America. And these College students here in Quebec that dropped everything to go fight for ISIS.

Etc. Etc.

It's not limited to the uneducated masses here in North America for those who turn against us. It is, however, confined to people who, for one reason or another actually and sincerely believe - for sure, sure, sure, in a god and all the crap put out by their religion as actually true, unlike the real 95% of human beings that don't really believe it's true but go along at least superficially, just in case, and mostly because it is by now (after millennia of being fooled by the priestly caste) the socially accepted norm and they don't like to stand out or disappoint their parents and grand-parents.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Fair enough, I guess we could replace uneducated with gullible and foolish.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I tried to allude to that above. Guess I missed. Anyway, as far as the Montreal engineer scenario. People want inclusion. They search around for someone that will accept them. The terrorist and activist imams, if contacted, will woo the person, fawn on him, make him part of the family, then start with the radicalization. So the engineer gets radicalized. Is he educated? Most assuredly, as an engineer. Perhaps though, not enough to see beyond his own vanity and insecurities and to accept being conned. There's tons of individual cases we cannot track or stop. However, those, in time, will become abhorrent and fringe if you can move the whole society towards civilization and it's rules. Right now, they are in what we used to call the middle age at the end of the dark ages, with all the same indoctrination and fealty and service to the church. And, as stated,the trouble in the main, is from tribal islamic culture. Not so much (but still appears) from westernized (for lack of a better word) islamists.


----------



## AbdullahD

See I find on the internet it is very easy to come off more educated then I truly am. A few times I actually had to consult friends of mine who are Islamic scholars and I have asked a few to proof read my postings here making sure I do not mis represent anything, I enjoy our discussion here because you and others make me think and force me to legitimize my beliefs in a way. Yet what we have here are just discussions I am not interested in debates.. I feel that these discussions you and I could have over coffee (or beer for you lol) and remain civil even while we disagree.. whereas with Milo and yes I have watched him and some of his stuff is amusing.. I find he likes to argue and debate (and I have a bad temper so it is probably not wise lol). Which are things I do not like to do, because it relies on a person's character and how well he can articulate a defense or launch an attack on the ball. Which I am weak at.

Now to the thick of it, it is very hard to defend against an enemy that is undefined and unidentified. So saying that religion or namely Islam has something "wrong" with it, but you are not sure what makes it tough to counter. But being a devils advocate and trying to put myself in your shoes as much as I Can, I would say and agree the Islamic World has something wrong with it. That thing being the teaching, appointment, education, tenure and credentials of people or persons put into position or places of influence in the Muslim community. Which really sucks to admit, but if we are looking for an issue maybe this is it. I still argue that the vast majority of Muslims are good, honest, hardworking chaps we would all love to have as our neighbour. Even the ignorant ones in places of power who unknowingly misguided people along a darker path are not inherently evil, but because they should have not been in that position to begin with evil has resulted and people were led to follow truly evil "preachers" by a person who would have never consciously done it. Then we have the truly insane, evil, pieces of work who should be put down faster then a rabid dog because of this issue.. and that issue speaks for itself, but to me that is an extremely small percent.. but coupled with other issues I think are the true reasons it results in what we have today.

I have also, since our last talks. Been watching and trying to stay aware of different emerging thoughts in the Islamic world and one, one that stands out for me and makes me happy. Is the one that a caliph (leader etc) is not actually an obligation for Muslims, it is a revival of an Islamic teaching from centuries ago when we had issues with Caliphs. A big group of scholars sat down to ponder the issue and decided essentially, I'm paraphrasing that if having an Islamic leader would cause a ton of issues, one is not needed in any way and that local leaders would suffice as long as they were just etc. I believe if you are interested Mufti Abu Layth has an hour or so talk regarding it, his talk is a simple primer on the subject.. but he laughs to much lol. Now as an add on to this subject and to touch on Recce's issues, which are also fair. A lot of Islamic scholars see the state and church as separate or at the very least they can be separate and it is not the end of world. Many instances in history show this, ie an Islamic caliph has non-Muslim specialists as the head of medicine or education etc and they have final say on those issues. (Sorry guys I am not sourcing as much as I should. We are buying our first home soon God willing and I'm sitting here thinking about places while I type this I will try to source it later). But I feel many Muslims are into protectionist policies, because that is the only way they feel they can protect Islam instead of letting Islam stand on its own two feet as a method for getting closer to God. So if Muslims essentially grow up and realize the more they try to protect and isolate Islam, the worse it seems to get and if they have Islam as the state religion and for the masses then if the masses truly want Islam then it will be reflected in their daily lives.. not forced on them by the government who, let's face it should not be trusted to dictate what you believe or how you believe. (This point of view has legitimate arguments against it, so if a Muslim doesn't agree he can be right and this belief is right too.. Which feeds your understanding me picking and choosing what I believe lol)

Now Kat I'll address what you said, you are right and wrong. We do not have a figurehead, for sure, so you are 100% right there. But the more I think on it, I think you are wrong too. See a few major sects of Islam have centers of power ie deobandi's their seat of power is darul uloom deoband, salafis have Saudi, eastern European Muslims tend to follow the rulings out of Russia's Islamic council etc etc etc. So I really do not know if your on to something or not.. or if you are more right then wrong. I am simply not that smart.

Now you asked me a question and bluntly so jarnhamar but can I answer with a question? You asked if i still think sharia should be in Canada..  well if you consider my views on different issues, would it be so bad? One of my obligations for it would be for it to have legally and democratically come to pass and only be enforced on Muslims. Since Islam is for Muslims. My vision of what sharia would be like in Canada assuming Muslims made up 51% of the population so they could legally pass it. Is let's say you are my neighbor and we decide to do a bbq, you have your beer, pork chops and we hit the beach in typical Canadian beach wear and guess what.. nothing happens. The police walk by, one of which is non-Muslim and he joins us for another beer.. and no one died... basically Canada would still be Canada. I'd still fight for your right to criticize Islam and have your own beliefs. Remember I believe breaking an Islamic injunction should not be punished in this life, but be sorted out in the next, so Muslims could break Islamic laws and they would not be dragged off kicking and screaming. The only real noticeable changes I could See, would be death for murderers and rapists.. Which is something many non-Muslims would support. You may also see a reduction in taxes ie no income tax, we would see an implementation of zakat without so many loopholes.. 2.5% of your inactive net worth is taxed.. ie second homes etc etc.. basically making ultra wealthy pay more tax lol I would also suspect you would enjoy the reduction in legal restrictions regarding firearms etc etc etc but remember this is my view and interpretation of Islam.. and this I see no issue with. But.. if a darker, more twisted view of Islam comes to power in Canada..  I may sadly lose my life fighting against it, but let's hope that never comes to pass.

I am happily living in Canada without Canadian law being as per the sharia, I can still live here and be a fully practicing Muslim happily and easily. My kids are safe here, my wife is happy, I don't have to worry about war, robberies or not coming home to my family. So I am more then happy with Canada (except maybe who our leader is and some of his idiotic decisions that will likely hurt our economy) and I have no desire to change anything here aside from maybe letting guys with Ar's take them hunting lol

But I suspect you knew all this 
Abdullah

Ps God this was long


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## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, we've probably never thanked the Muslims properly for saving Europe:

How Islam Saved Europe: A Reminder Of The History Of Islam In Relations To The European Dark Age and Renaissance
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/how-islam-saved-Europe

As for Africa, compare the ongoing antediluvian tragedy that is Sub-Saharan Africa with Northern Africa and, despite the obvious challenges in the northern part of the continent, you can see the relative benefits of Islamic missionary work over the centuries. 

As always, the extremists tend to ruin it for everyone.


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD]I still argue that the vast majority of Muslims are good, honest, hardworking chaps we would all love to have as our neighbour.[/quote]
No disagreement here, I think many (most) might be too.   BUT, is what constitutes as being a Muslim subjective?

Maybe they might be like the hardcore practicing Muslim woman in the video debate with Milo I'm talking about. The hardcore Muslim who couldn't name half the rules of being a Muslim and had to have gay Milo teach her about Islam. Have you seen the video? Sounds like Trudeau trying to explain something when he doesn't have his ear piece in. I can find it for you if you'd like, it's embarrassing to watch though.

Maybe those good neighbors are good Muslim neighbors because they're not exposed to the full meal deal? The stuff people read and take on board that makes them want to kill infidels? I don't.  But I do think people may have a tendency to pick and choose what rules they like, what ones they don't, which they follow and so on. Just like how the protestant religion came to be eh?





> Now you asked me a question and bluntly so jarnhamar but can I answer with a question? You asked if i still think sharia should be in Canada..  well if you consider my views on different issues, would it be so bad?



Sharia law in Canada? A separate law system for anyone who identifies as Muslim? Sounds great to me and considering how Imans can make up Islam rules on the fly it's not ripe for abuse at all. 
-Traditionally, *Islam has permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10*, *because Sharia considers practices of Muhammad as a basis for Islamic law*. According to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two Sunni hadiths, Muhammed married Aisha, his third wife when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she reached the age of 9 or 10. Also 
-*Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men.*
-The Quran also *permits men to first admonish, then lightly tap or push and even beat her*, if he suspects nushuz (disobedience, disloyalty, rebellion, ill conduct) in his wife
-*Muslim woman can only have sex after her "nikah" – a proper marriage contract – with one Muslim man*; sex is permitted to her only with her husband.[129][279][280] *The woman's husband, may however, marry and have sex with more than one Muslim woman, as well as have sex with non-Muslim slaves*

Good stuff.

Heck we could even look at changing our name to the Canadian-Caliphate maybe?   


But actually that's the perfect answer to accentuate my theory on the good neighbors you're talking about.  You want to take Shari law and and modify it, pick and choose various parts of it to follow and not to follow. Get rid of the whole misogynist stuff (despite you not thinking it's misogynist ). So it wouldn't be Sharia law but a watered down and modified version of it. Just like the Muslim woman in Australia was "Muslim" but a strange modified version of it. 


On second thought here's the countries that practice different forms of Shiara law.  Think I'll pass.


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## AbdullahD

> -Traditionally, Islam has permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Sharia considers practices of Muhammad as a basis for Islamic law. According to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two Sunni hadiths, Muhammed married Aisha, his third wife when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she reached the age of 9 or 10. Also



http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm I'd go with 17-19 personally but pedophiles and pigs are just that. Sahih hadiths do not equal Islam, this is the same trap extremist preachers use. Sahih hadiths are just that sahih hadiths.. But haven't we gone over this before and how imam's make ignorant fatwas are because of this? I'll go with 19 and raping children is forbidden.. But ignorant pieces of.. will be sure to say I'm wrong because they like to.. But I have an army of Muftis who agree with me, so I'm fine believing it.



> -Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men.



Come on man I have a daughter  i am actually a modernist on this one.. okay I said it. But the modernist approach makes the most logical sense to me and Islam is a religion that is supposed to be modernized and coexist with the times. Not fight against them.
http://www.altmuslimah.com/2010/09/muslim_women_should_be_able_to_marry_non-muslim_men/



> -The Quran also permits men to first admonish, then lightly tap or push and even beat her, if he suspects nushuz (disobedience, disloyalty, rebellion, ill conduct) in his wife



I swear i covered this before. My Google-fu is weak today and I can't find where I did it.. But here is a quick link.. it's forbidden.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html



> -Muslim woman can only have sex after her "nikah" – a proper marriage contract – with one Muslim man; sex is permitted to her only with her husband.[129][279][280] The woman's husband, may however, marry and have sex with more than one Muslim woman, as well as have sex with non-Muslim slaves



Haven't we covered this issue too? Or well these issues
Polygamy..  http://answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm ok so there is an argument in addition to my previous ones I have given.. But a major reason  polyandry is not allowed is because of the children's lineage.. so in today's age with genetic testing etc.. couldn't polyandry be allowed since no ayat of Quran forbids It? Hmm... yea this argument works really well for Muslim men who do not realize Islam restricts polygamy not encourage it. Again Islam is supposed to be used in conjunction with common sense and logic, which makes these talks great because I have to try and use both lol.

Slavery.. Umar ra forbid it.. and he is one of the righteously guided caliphs so it is a no go.
A link to add on to my early stuff https://abuaminaelias.com/what-does-islam-teach-about-slavery/

There is no sex allowed in islam before nikah neither for men or women. Also I swear i have said that the Islamic sharia is meant to adapt with the times and that does not mean it is watered down. Very few things in Islam do not change ie the 5 pillars, but a lot of it can be modernized and changed for the times and not affect Islam so it is not us picking and choosing what we want to follow. It is us following the sharia that makes sense in this day and age, a sharia that is just as potent as the one from 1500 years ago..

I personally think Muslims who are completely exposed to everything make the best neighbors, because they will be educated regarding their religion and be able to refute claims the extremists make.

As always I am constantly learning and evolving my beliefs to try and get the most correct, educated views for the world we live in, in this day and age. Also please do show me where I do not believe misogynistic stuff is misogynistic I would really wish to review that position.

Abdullah


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## Jarnhamar

[quote author=AbdullahD] 
Haven't we covered this issue too? Or well these issues[/QUOTE]

Yes we have, which is why I'm glad you answered this way again. 

Let's forget that the whole premise of Shaira law being based off Mohammad "doing it so it's okay" (and without touching on the weird sexual stuff).  

Where the example I gave above of the Muslim woman not being able to articulate what it even was to be a Muslim you're the opposite and have modernized views on old laws, your own inturputations and inturputations of other people's inturputations.. Picking and choosing what sounds nice. Shaira law is so open to inturputation now that there's no standard.  Would your views of the perfect Shaira law even be able to be considered Shaira law anymore? 

Look at the map above of the countries that follow it. Nice places to live? You live in a Canada and love Canada but you want to bring a law from those countries here?  It doesn't make sense. You want to make up your own law to fit your own views of what you think your religion is or should be. It's fantasy, the same way me wanting a Robert Heinlein civilian-citizen society is. 


Do you have enough faith in Islam to send your children to an Islamic school in one of those middle eastern countries? Take after John Lett? 




> Also I swear i have said that the Islamic sharia is meant to adapt with the times and that does not mean it is watered down. Very few things in Islam do not change ie the 5 pillars, but a lot of it can be modernized



You inturput that it's supposed to adapt with the times, but that's not happening very much is it?


Why are there so many violent Islamic extremists compared to everyone else? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123793.0.html


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## YZT580

Islam has actually changed a lot in the last two decades.  In 1970 Pakistan was welcoming Christian medical missionaries and the country was very accepting of other faiths: now it is a capital offence to even mention Christianity to a Muslim.  In 1995 Muslim wives were free to choose their own wardrobe in Sweden: no more.  The murder rate for Coptic Christians in Egypt has increased alarmingly in the last 20 years (at least that is the way it appears).  In 1979 Iran universities were noted for their openness and sexual equality.  Girls wore skirts and blouses and blue jeans too.  They didn't chose to change their styles; the government chose for them.  And I could go on but that is enough.  So you may be preaching Islam as a peaceful, tolerant faith but the evidence says most change has been for the negative.  Please show me where I am wrong.


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## AbdullahD

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Yes we have, which is why I'm glad you answered this way again.
> 
> Let's forget that the whole premise of Shaira law being based off Mohammad "doing it so it's okay" (and without touching on the weird sexual stuff).
> 
> Where the example I gave above of the Muslim woman not being able to articulate what it even was to be a Muslim you're the opposite and have modernized views on old laws, your own inturputations and inturputations of other people's inturputations.. Picking and choosing what sounds nice. Shaira law is so open to inturputation now that there's no standard.  Would your views of the perfect Shaira law even be able to be considered Shaira law anymore?
> 
> Look at the map above of the countries that follow it. Nice places to live? You live in a Canada and love Canada but you want to bring a law from those countries here?  It doesn't make sense. You want to make up your own law to fit your own views of what you think your religion is or should be. It's fantasy, the same way me wanting a Robert Heinlein civilian-citizen society is.
> 
> 
> Do you have enough faith in Islam to send your children to an Islamic school in one of those middle eastern countries? Take after John Lett?
> 
> 
> You inturput that it's supposed to adapt with the times, but that's not happening very much is it?
> 
> 
> Why are there so many violent Islamic extremists compared to everyone else?
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/123793.0.html



Jarnhamar can you please explain what you think sharia law is to me? I am having trouble with that, i am beginning to feel "sharia law" is just an undefined monster in the closet and your understanding of what it is or is not and what it can or can't do is interesting. Also can you tell me what you think the standard is?

I will, as I can, address each point I disagree with, with evidence such as I can muster.. and i feel i will be explaining more heavily who exactly propagates these teachings... so it can be shown the sharia I follow is 100% Islamic.

Also there are Islamic schools in other countries I would send my kids to. But what is the point to that question? Why does having enough faith enter into the equation of sending my kids somewhere? I live in Smithers bc. I want my kids with me and I have enough faith in Islam to keep them with me. Remember my friend, I have talked to a number of Islamic scholars and quite a number of them have their own madrasahs or darul uloom in these backwater countries so to speak propagating these values, to be honest I really wish to visit my friends and when we go my kids may sit in too but language barriers exist.

Maybe I am a protestant in a Catholic vs protestant war in Islam just like what happened years ago in Christianity (Sorry my Catholic brothers, I do not mean this as a dig it is just used as an example). But I don't think so and the reasons you may think I am I feel are wholly incorrect.

Abdullah


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## Fishbone Jones

Abdullah,

How are modern Muslims trying to stop the tribal fanatic islamists, ISIS, AQ, and the rest? Can they withhold donations and things like that? How do your scholars approach that problem? What kind of pressure could they bring to bear to stop what's going on? Is there a way to get Middle Eastern countries to start taking care of their brethren. Saudi Arabia, for example, has refused to take in a single refugee from other countries like Syria. That would seem to me as 180 degrees opposite from what the Muslim faith espouses, is it not? I know there are different sects that hate each other, but aren't the basic tenets to be followed by all? Similar to all the different Christian sects? I'd be interested to hear your Imam's point of view on this. Maybe something we haven't thought of. Or maybe something that can be accomplished together.

Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions and I'm not looking for an immediate answer on any of them. I just need to try understand things a little better. Take your time and consult your Imam if you wish, which I hope you do, as I'm interested in their opinion also.

Cheers


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## Jarnhamar

Apostasy laws





Punishment for bring gay




Maroon is a death penalty
Red life in prison
Orange imprisonment



In 2018 there have been 369 mostly terror attacks in 29 countries with 2199 people killed and 2556 injured.  

What religion would you guess those attackers were? Jewish? Russian Orthodox? 


I can't explain exactly what shaira law is to you Abdullah because it seems to change on a whim depending on who's justifying what.  I can tell you the places that follow it mostly seem like really shitty places to live, especially for women. And a death sentence if you`re gay or transexual.

Its definitely a monster in the closet. 

I asked about the Islamic schools because of all the stories in the news of kids/people converting to islam then wanting to kill for Islam. 



And Sweden is very much a write off. There is Swedish woman who made online jokes about Islam who could be jailed for 2 years. Because she liked or shared a picture.
Meanwhile one migrant who raped a woman and broadcast it on Facebook was given 2 years, the other guy with him, an 18 year old, was given 1 year.
Sweden has gone full retard.

If you ask me these sexual assaults, riots and destruction happening all over Western Europe could be a form of terrorism.  You couldn't pay me 2 million dollars to have my wife and daughters hang out in Sweden for a month, or even a week.


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## AbdullahD

Recce, I will get back to you and yes that is a lot. I'll get releases or videos or something for you to watch or read. So it is not me saying it and possibly twisting it. But I focus more on the academic stuff, my friends focus on more practical stuff.

Jarnhamar, you see how hard it is for me to address any issues that you have if you can't at first define them? It is like a moving target. I can explain who and what, says what, when and why. But if it does not address the real issue, we will just go in circles. I can address all these different topics, all day long as I have been doing off and on, but we are still at the same spot. Especially on these apostasy and homosexuality issues ie religion vs culture vs traditions vs social economic and education.. you say religion I say the rest.. tough position for me.

I can say these things, with my evidence but your experiences, knowledge and exposures negates them. I'm not sure I'm hitting the mark, but I'm sure you understand I hope lol.

Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

recceguy said:
			
		

> Abdullah,
> 
> How are modern Muslims trying to stop the tribal fanatic islamists, ISIS, AQ, and the rest?



Basically Islamic scholars are doing all they can I think I posted a pdf file for a list before.. I may have to search for it.. But here is a primer anyways
https://islamwich.com/2016/09/02/update-what-muslims-are-doing-to-stop-terrorism/

https://islamunravelled.ca Mufti aasim has a lot of work here that helps prevent recruitment via education. His YouTube and Facebook channels are good too.

https://www.tolonews.com/index.php/afghanistan/2000-religious-scholars-pakistan-sign-anti-terror-fatwa



> Can they withhold donations and things like that? How do your scholars approach that problem?



My friends that I know personally believe more in prevention through education... I'm not sure how scholars could influence the financial industry that I would think is more of a national and international issue. Muslims don't exactly do fundraising for extremists and then go "haha we fooled you" and keep the cash they usually just report the extremists.. or the countries bomb them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29074514

Fox reported we report.. that surprised me I have to use it lol
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/16/report-us-officials-say-muslims-frequently-report-terror-threats.html

If any Muslim scholar I know of was told to send money to extremists, he would not and he would report it.



> What kind of pressure could they bring to bear to stop what's going on?



Military alliance to stop it sound good?
http://www.newsweek.com/muslim-countries-forming-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-586315

But lots of theological fatwas etc have been passed to try and curb/stop the issue. Again see earlier posts.



> Is there a way to get Middle Eastern countries to start taking care of their brethren. Saudi Arabia, for example, has refused to take in a single refugee from other countries like Syria. That would seem to me as 180 degrees opposite from what the Muslim faith espouses, is it not?



If it was true, I would completely agree.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8175924

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/refugee-crisis-saudi-arabia-says-it-has-taken-2-5-million-fleeing-syrians-1519532



> I know there are different sects that hate each other, but aren't the basic tenets to be followed by all? Similar to all the different Christian sects? I'd be interested to hear your Imam's point of view on this. Maybe something we haven't thought of. Or maybe something that can be accomplished together.



If you believe these 5 things your Muslim. Period, end, of, story.
https://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-16.htm

*puts on rose colored glasses* we do get along shayk badat yusuf is a chap i respect and follow to an extent. (I'm actually singing "lets all be friends" right now, I need help 😂😂😂)
https://muslimlink.ca/news/the-muslim-coordinating-council-organizes-the-first-unity-dinner-on-parliament-hill

*takes off glasses* but outside of the West this is a very serious issue and it ticks me off that one Muslim kills another because he believes just slightly different. But it is not as bad as it is made out to be. But that is anecdotal from my friends in different countries that currently have issues.. they don't understand either and are surprised how much media time this issue gets. So I can tip on this if shown to be wrong with objective evidence.



> Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions and I'm not looking for an immediate answer on any of them. I just need to try understand things a little better. Take your time and consult your Imam if you wish, which I hope you do, as I'm interested in their opinion also.
> 
> Cheers



The consulting part is embarrassing because of my new phone I lost a LOT of numbers, I'm getting calls from random numbers and they are buddies numbers I lost. But I'll post stuff of scholars I follow for generic knowledge here. Again I am embarrassed it's been a while and a lot of my bookmarks are missing so it is doubly embarrassing.

Shayk Atabek shukrov on Isis via taymiyyah he has more academic stuff that is amazing to read if you have lots of time he covers a lot of issues. I am currently trying to get a book he has done too.
https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2016/06/24/heresy-of-muslim-philosophers-and-divine-love-of-scholars/

I have met syed as well as shayk badat used to have both their numbers.. But they are active in a fight against radicalization on many fronts. If you guys live in Calgary do meet syed he is awesome and shayk badat in toronto.
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-feb-20-2015-1.2964498/muslim-leaders-strategize-to-thwart-converts-from-radicalization-1.2964596

Mufti aasim and my friends in the bcma and their program against terrorism
https://glasscityarchive.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/local-muslim-association-launches-campaign-attacks/

If you peruse shayk Syed, Shayk Yusuf badat , Mufti Aasim Rashid and Shayk Atabek Shukrov you will get a good idea of what my friends believe. Those are the most Google noticeable of the guys I know. If you want another good one from a guy I respect but do not know look up Mufti menk he is an easy listening preacher. He has a lot on YouTube too
http://www.thedeenshow.com/mufti-menk-on-isis-extremism/

Abdullah


----------



## Jarnhamar

Yes it doesn't make sense to have Muslims in Canada have the option of following a law we can't even define. 

I do appreciate having an amiable disagreement with you. 

If you feel like I'm belabouring the point or begging the question please stop me but I'm still wrestling with why we see so much radical Islam extremism.

You said



> I'd be asking what's is it with a person's social, economic and/or psychological state that makes them want to kill others.





> I argue that social, economic, monetary and psychological issues are what truly fuel radicalization and religion, politics and ideologies are simply the excuse that is used to whip up the masses to see red.



Okay. So why does Islam attract a disproportionate amount of these people with social, economic and psychological issues? 
What is it about Islam that's so attractive?


----------



## reallyanonymous

Okay.  Sooo this is about as simple as I can break it down.

I'm a Muslim in the CAF.  It is my firm belief that each Muslim should interpret their religion alone to minimize the chances of being radicalized, and that if anyone is told by a Muslim that they should or must live under Sharia law... said person has the right to tell them to F*** O** because the very first rule in Sharia law is that you  must willingly submit to it.

So if anyone ever tries to imply or force you to submit to sharia or accept sharia - tell them to get stuffed and be on your way.


----------



## AbdullahD

reallyanonymous said:
			
		

> Okay.  Sooo this is about as simple as I can break it down.
> 
> I'm a Muslim in the CAF.  It is my firm belief that each Muslim should interpret their religion alone to minimize the chances of being radicalized, and that if anyone is told by a Muslim that they should or must live under Sharia law... said person has the right to tell them to F*** O** because the very first rule in Sharia law is that you  must willingly submit to it.
> 
> So if anyone ever tries to imply or force you to submit to sharia or accept sharia - tell them to get stuffed and be on your way.



Amen brother 👍👍 

To jarnhamar

Why are they attracted to or forced to? That's the question. This is more out of my league, so I am extremely open on this subject. I am literally putting thoughts out there and am more then willing to discuss, be corrected on or discard them.

Political machinations have an Impact.
The USA has tried to over throw or did or had a heavy hand in their ruling or well fortunes. A list including years.


			
				https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list said:
			
		

> •Albania 49-53, 91
> •Iran 5
> •Syria 1956-7
> •Egypt 1957
> •Indonesia 1957-8
> •Iraq 63, 91, 03
> •Libya 80s
> •Afghanistan 80s, 01
> •Somalia 93, 07
> •Yugoslav 99-00
> •Syria 11



Another link to the same effect http://investmentwatchblog.com/since-1945-the-usa-has-attempted-to-overthrow-more-than-50-foreign-governments-most-of-which-had-been-democratically-elected/

Could an arms embargo be affecting safety a list 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/current-arms-embargoes-and-other-restrictions

A strong army has more use then just war (and by inference what we are denying the embargoed countries)
https://index.heritage.org/military/2016/essays/role-of-a-strong-national-defense/

Large multi national companies hinder a nation's rebuilding or growth thus fueling a negative economic a social situation 
https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/multinational-companies-a-curse-to-developing-countries/

Lack of income, equals a lack of education that equals a lack of income.. a vicious cycle.. that if broken helps us all.
https://www.globalpartnership.org/education/the-benefits-of-education

Education and health
https://www.nber.org/digest/mar07/w12352.html

Poverty and mental health
https://ontario.cmha.ca/documents/poverty-and-mental-illness/

Basically my argument a lot of these issues, are extremely complex and massively nuanced. Starting from whenever we wish to start the date and wrong decisions to be on one side of the power struggle.. or the other (I'm thinking ww1 and ww2) and the implications of those choices. Then how each decision from all parties involved keep pushing the world farther down the road we are on. I am not, in ANY way blaming "the west" but with the world being so interconnected and the Islamic countries have very little power compared to the west or Russia or China during certain episodes of the last 100 or so years.. they were more open to being influenced? Bullied? Manipulated? Afghanistan before Russia invaded was not the Afghanistan we have now.. imagine if Afghanistan could have went toe to toe with Russia in a war in all aspects.. had the same nuclear, aerial etc capabilities..  history would have been different. The USA coming to Afghanistan's aid was a short term good thing.. and I mean it. But long term it may have been better to just let Russia have it.

I'm over simplifying but the more we meddle the worse it seems to get, yea Afghanistan is bad but before the recent invasion it was still way better.
https://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/22/the_iraq_effect_new_study_finds

Living in a war zone has to suck. And a lot of these "bad" Islamic countries are pretty much just that.. war zones. I do not know how long a country takes to recover from an invasion, especially with all these other issues involved.. but even if you say 20-30 years if we would have or could have just left them all alone, to fight it out, establish dominance etc whatever countries do we would possibly be far better off today then we are and "West hate" would likely not be a thing "kill the kafrs" likely wouldn't exist cause it would have been these idiots doing it to themselves.. and if you look at 100 year crime rates in the west once a country is semi stable within 100 years it becomes extremely safe, educated and advanced in thought and technology or infrastructure. But my opinion this lot was not chosen by the current generation it was chosen by the previous, the cure.. in my opinion.. is harsh, pathetic, sad, possibly even cowardly.. but it is to stop trying to be the hero and let them kill each other. It may be to late, but that is my ignorant view.. I always believed in not putting my nose were it did not belong.

Now Islam is very attractive because it is beautifully complex or simple, depending on what you want you can just follow the 5 pillars or you can go much farther along and try to get closer to God by emulating the sunnah (habits) of the prophet and his righteous companions. Both roads are Islam, but a person can choose what works for him and neither road is violent. It is peaceful, you can wake up and pray centering yourself for the day and few other times through out your day, to keep your inner peace in place. Or you can wake up and smile at your wife and possibly get admitted into heaven just for smiling at your wife/husband/whatever even your dog. 

Movie time ttyl 
Abdullah


----------



## Fishbone Jones

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> Basically Islamic scholars are doing all they can I think I posted a pdf file for a list before.. I may have to search for it.. But here is a primer anyways
> https://islamwich.com/2016/09/02/update-what-muslims-are-doing-to-stop-terrorism/
> 
> https://islamunravelled.ca Mufti aasim has a lot of work here that helps prevent recruitment via education. His YouTube and Facebook channels are good too.



Tanks Abdulla,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the mosque would send money to terrorists. What I meant was like if the church or diocese send tithes to the Vatican.

Cheers


----------



## Jarnhamar

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-suspect-in-fatal-sleepover-stabbing-rampage-watched-extremist-videos/



> PALM BEACH GARDENS, Fla. -- Police say a South Florida teen accused of going on a fatal stabbing rampage at a sleepover admitted to the attack and said it was over his religious beliefs.
> 
> The 17-year-old suspect said he had *recently converted to Islam *and admitted watching extremist videos online about jihadists that encourage death to non-believers before the attack in which a 13-year-old boy died, a probable cause affidavit says. The FBI, the Jupiter Police Department and school district police had investigated the teen suspect last year because of concerns about the violent videos and his alleged "violent tendencies," Palm Beach Gardens interim police chief Clint Shannon said at a Monday press conference.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I don't know what it is about this particular faith and mentally ill assholes being drawn to it.


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I don't know what it is about this particular faith and mentally ill assholes being drawn to it.



It is the envogue thing to do per-se. Just like commies used to be, or KKK, or environmentalist protest, or etc etc neat opinion piece more educated then I could say.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/trauma-and-violence/why-are-young-westerners-drawn-terrorist-organizations-isis


----------



## Jed

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> It is the envogue thing to do per-se. Just like commies used to be, or KKK, or environmentalist protest, or etc etc neat opinion piece more educated then I could say.
> 
> http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/trauma-and-violence/why-are-young-westerners-drawn-terrorist-organizations-isis



I agree with you about the envogue aspect. a big difference though is Islam is a religion and all those other organizations you mention are gangs on steroids.


----------



## AbdullahD

Jed said:
			
		

> I agree with you about the envogue aspect. a big difference though is Islam is a religion and all those other organizations you mention are gangs on steroids.



I'm really trying not to comment on everything guys, honest to god. I do not feel a need to defend every little thing I swear.

I agree Jed, you are right. For the most part those are just what came to mind but the intent is the same. A political group espousing attractive propaganda is just as dangerous as a religion, movement or what have you. So yes, Islam is a religion, but Isis is a death cult based off a warped and twisted interpertation  of Islam. It just happens to be the flavour of the week, who knows what next week's flavour will bring.. and being that it is not a quick rotation it could be a while. I have very good friends who are bigoted against Sikhs (in general), because of WW2 or some other war were they switched sides and I expect many years will pass before Islam is not a hot topic.. just like my older friends who dislike Sikhs (which saddens me greatly), to this day.

To me defending Islam is like defending gun rights, both are very convoluted issues and a lot of people over simplify the situation. When the fact is the problems are so convoluted any simple answer does not do it justice.

Also as an aside, I feel if we as a society solve either or those issues with social programs the other as a benefit will be solved too, since so many parallels exist in these injuries. But any rate you are right Jed I just wanted to explain myself better.

Abdullah

Ps Jarnhamar I do not feel you over simplify the issue, I do not agree with your opinion. But I do not think you over simplify, just in case you feel I implied that you did, I in no way meant to.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Another terrorist attack in Paris.



> Deadly hostage-taking in France likely terrorist act, president says
> 
> Assailant had requested release of sole surviving assailant from 2015 Paris attacks
> 
> An armed man took hostages in a supermarket in southern France on Friday, killing three people and injuring about a dozen others before being shot to death when French police stormed the market, authorities said.
> 
> French President Emmanuel Macron said all evidence suggested that it was a terrorist attack — the first one since he became president in May.
> 
> It's unclear how many victims there are overall, said Yves Lefebvre, secretary general of SGP Police-FO police union.
> 
> The attacker first fired six shots at police officers on their way back from jogging near the city of Carcassonne on Friday morning, Lefebvre said. The police were not in uniform but were wearing athletic clothes with police insignia. One police officer was shot in the shoulder, but the injury was not serious, Lefebvre said.
> 
> The suspect then went to a Super U supermarket in the nearby small town of Trebes, 100 kilometres southeast of Toulouse, taking an unknown number of people hostage.
> 
> In an hours-long standoff, special police units converged on the scene and authorities blocked roads and urged residents to stay away. Police then stormed the supermarket.
> 
> Interior Minister Gerard Collomb confirmed that the attacker had been shot dead and three other people were killed. Collomb went to Trebes after talking with Macron, who was at an EU summit in Brussels.
> 
> The Paris prosecutor's office said counterterrorism investigators were taking over the probe but did not explain why. Unconfirmed media reports say the assailant claimed connections to Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS).
> 
> 
> Collomb identified the suspect as Redouane Lakdim, 26, a petty criminal and small-time drug dealer who he said was radicalized and under police surveillance. Collomb said that during the standoff, Lakdim requested the release of the sole surviving assailant of Nov. 13, 2015, attacks in Paris that left 130 people dead.
> 
> Rita Katz, director of Site Intelligence Group, said on Twitter that the ISIS-linked Aamaq News Agency had claimed Lakdim as one of its "soldiers." She said the statement was consistent with others made by the militant group in the wake of previous ISIS-inspired violence.
> 
> France has been on high alert since a string of Islamic extremist attacks in 2015 and 2016 that killed more than 200 people. The shootings occurred in a normally quiet part of France, where the main tourist attraction is the treasured old city of Carcassonne, its medieval walls and its summertime festivals.
> 
> Macron said he will be back in Paris within hours. The attack poses a new challenge to his leadership as he also faces nationwide strikes and criticism of his reforms.
> 
> With files from CBC News
> © The Associated Press, 2018
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/police-officer-shot-france-suspect-hostages-1.4589404


----------



## AbdullahD

I hope this link works. It is a Imam speaking out against Sharia law in the UK. Posting here because I think narratives or opinions like this from imam's will help fight terrorism.

https://www.facebook.com/ShAbdulHameedIsmail/posts/1793250687426053

Abdullah

Ps I like the guy too, practices mma, has a nice bike.. basically a "western" culture with an Islamic religion.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

I wish for a world in which AbdullahD's view of Islam becomes the dominant form of the religion.  The world would be a much happier and peaceful place if that were the case.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Hear, hear.


----------



## jollyjacktar

The Police Col. who volunteered to swap places with a hostage in the Paris supermarket, has died from his wounds.
A true hero.   



> Policeman who took the place of hostage in France standoff dies of gunshot wounds
> Arnaud Beltrame ‘fell as a hero,’ French President Emmanuel Macron says
> Thomson Reuters
> 
> A gendarme who was shot three times after voluntarily taking the place of a hostage during a supermarket siege in southwestern France on Friday has died, French authorities announced on Saturday.
> 
> Arnaud Beltrame, who once served in Iraq, had been raced to hospital fighting for his life after the siege in which he took the place of a female hostage at the Super U store in the town of Trebes, near the Pyrenees mountains.
> 
> "He fell as a hero, giving up his life to halt the murderous outfit of a jihadist terrorist," President Emmanuel Macron said in a statement shortly before dawn on Saturday.
> 
> Friday's attacker was identified by authorities as Redouane Lakdim, a 25-year-old Moroccan-born French national from the city of Carcassonne, not far from Trebes, a tranquil town of about 5,000 people where he struck on Friday afternoon.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/world/france-policeman-hostage-dies-gunshot-wounds-1.4591497


----------



## AbdullahD

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The Police Col. who volunteered to swap places with a hostage in the Paris supermarket, has died from his wounds.
> A true hero.



May he rest in peace

Abdullah

Ps thanks guys, I really don't know what to say. But Its not just my Islam this is what I have been taught and learnt. (Sorry I took so long to respond I just didn't know what to say or if I should say anything, sorry I am a shy guy in ways lol)


----------



## Cloud Cover

This is not terrorism but certainly oppression (unless you are one of the wives of a man of fighting age from Syria, then its fear and oppression) Is Sweden a great country or what, eh?  “we can learn so much better things” from them. Hmmmm:   https://youtu.be/384gCR7I9Pk


----------



## jollyjacktar

German Police foil knife attack on Sunday's 1/2 Marathon in Berlin, 8 Apr 2018.



> German police foil knife attack on Sunday's half-marathon in Berlin - 24 hours after driver mowed down and killed two diners then shot himself dead
> By Khaleda Rahman For Mailonline
> 
> Police have foiled a knife attack on Sunday's half-marathon in Berlin.
> 
> Special police forces detained four men in connection with the sporting event, German daily Die Welt reports.
> 
> They said the main suspect was planning to kill participants and spectators with knives.
> 
> According to Die Welt, the main suspect knew Anis Amri, the Tunisian attacker who killed 12 people and injured dozens when he drove a truck into a Christmas market in Berlin in December 2016.
> 
> Full story and photos here.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5591525/German-police-foil-knife-attack-Sundays-half-marathon-Berlin.html


----------



## George Wallace

> Militants in UN disguise explode car bombs, rockets at Mali Bases
> Reuters
> World News
> April 14, 2018 / 6:09 PM / Updated 3 hours ago
> 
> BAMAKO (Reuters) - Militants disguised as U.N. peacekeepers exploded two suicide car bombs and fired dozens of rockets at the French and United Nations bases in Mali’s northern city of Timbuktu on Saturday, killing one and wounding many, Malian authorities said.
> 
> The U.N. mission confirmed that the complex attack had killed a U.N. peacekeeper. The Malian government said in addition that 10 French soldiers had been wounded, but the French mission did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
> 
> “Terrorists wearing blue helmets aboard two cars laden with explosives, including one in the colours of the Malian army and another with a ‘UN’ written in it, attempted to infiltrate these camps,” the Malian government statement said.
> 
> “The situation is now under control.”
> 
> 
> U.N. peacekeeping and French military forces stationed in northern Mali have been under near-constant attack over the past year by determined and well-armed jihadist groups seen as the gravest threat to security across Africa’s Sahel region.
> 
> But even by the standards of Mali’s increasingly emboldened Islamist fighters, Saturday’s attempted breach of two foreign bases at once was ambitious.
> 
> “MINUSMA confirms a significant complex attack on its camp in Timbuktu mortars, exchange of fire, vehicle suicide bomb attack,” the mission tweeted. “One blue helmet was killed in the exchange of fire.”
> 
> 
> The United Nations last month said 162 people deployed in Mali have been killed since 2013, making it the world’s deadliest peacekeeping operation to date.
> 
> A 2015 peace deal signed by Mali’s government and separatist groups has failed to end violence in northern Mali by Islamists, who have also staged assaults on high-profile targets in the capital, Bamako, Burkina Faso and Ivory Coast.
> 
> French forces intervened in 2013 to drive back Islamist fighters who had hijacked a Tuareg uprising a year earlier, and some 4,000 French troops remain. The U.N. Security Council then deployed peacekeepers to the country, but they have been targets of a concerted guerrilla campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> Reporting by Souleymane Ag Anara; writing by Tim Cocks; editing by Jonathan Oatis





https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mali-security/militants-in-u-n-disguise-explode-car-bombs-rockets-at-mali-bases-idUSKBN1HL1BX?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'll throw it here.  Another terrorist attack in Paris, yesterday.  A Chechen, this time.



> Paris attacker born in Chechnya, in database as having links to radicalism
> 
> Man who killed 1, injured 4 'just kept walking around with his knife in his bloodied hands'
> 
> The man behind a deadly knife attack in central Paris was born in Chechnya and had been on police radar for radicalism, and his parents have been detained for questioning, French authorities said Sunday.
> 
> Counterterrorism investigators are working to determine whether the man who stabbed five people in a busy neighborhood in the heart of the French capital Saturday night had any help. The attacker killed a 29-year-old man and wounded four others before being shot by police.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/paris-knife-attack-1.4661010


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'll grant this isn't the west but it's Islamic terrorism against Christians and something new l have not seen elsewhere before.

Full story and photos at link below.



> Family of suicide bombers hits Indonesian churches; 11 dead, 41 injured
> 
> ISIS-inspired group carried out attacks, spokesperson for country's intelligence agency says
> 
> A family of six suicide bombers that included two young children carried out deadly attacks on three churches in Indonesia's second-largest city on Sunday, police said, as the world's most populous Muslim nation recoiled in horror at one of the worst attacks on its Christian minority.
> 
> At least seven people plus the six bombers died in the attacks in Surabaya, according to police. At least 41 people were injured in the attacks, which Indonesia's president condemned as "barbaric."
> 
> The bombings were the worst to target churches in Indonesia since a series of attacks on Christmas Eve in 2000 killed 15 people and wounded nearly 100. Religious minorities in Indonesia, especially Christians, have been repeatedly targeted by militants.
> 
> National police chief Tito Karnavian said that the father exploded a car bomb, two sons aged 18 and 16 used a motorcycle for their attack, and the mother was with daughters aged 12 and 9 for her attack.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/indonesia-churches-suicide-bombers-1.4661005


----------



## dogger1936

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'll grant this isn't the west but it's Islamic terrorism against Christians and something new l have not seen elsewhere before.



A few months ago they cracked down on the Transgender community using barbaric tactics even for an Islamic country.It appears to be a growing trend in the country. https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/29/asia/indonesian-forcibly-shaved-transgender-women-intl/index.html


----------



## Jarnhamar

> Belgian law enforcement officials are investigating a shooting that happened on Tuesday as a terrorist attack after a gunman killed three people while reportedly yelling "Allahu Akbar."
> 
> The attacker had been in prison since 2003 and was released on Monday on a two-day leave before allegedly carrying out the attack in the Belgian city of Liege, The Washington Postreported.
> 
> The gunman, who reportedly yelled "Allahu Akbar" during the attack, ran up behind two female police officers and attacked them with a knife before stealing one of their handguns and shooting them both to death. The attacker also shot and killed a 22-year-old male bystander who was in the area.





https://www.dailywire.com/news/31199/breaking-multiple-dead-after-gunman-goes-rampage-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


----------



## Jarnhamar

> * Islamic Man At New Mexico Compound Trained Kids To Commit School Shootings, Court Documents Say*
> 
> 
> An Islamic man who was arrested last week at a New Mexico compound where 11 children were abused was training the children to commit school shootings, according to newly-released court documents.
> 
> The court filings say that "Siraj Ibn Wahhaj was conducting weapons training with assault rifles at the compound near the Colorado border where 11 hungry children were found in filthy conditions," the Associated Press reported.





https://www.dailywire.com/news/34241/islamic-man-new-mexico-compound-trained-kids-ryan-saavedra?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro


----------



## Journeyman

The US has released their latest "National Strategy for Counterterrorism."   LINK 

I posted it here because there is only one small paragraph, at the end of "The Terrorist Adversary" chapter, that accepts there is any form of violent extremism beyond Islamist.  Even that paragraph simply lumps together "racially motivated extremism, animal rights extremism, environmental extremism, sovereign citizen extremism, and militia extremism" as almost a throw-away line, without any further consideration.  

Islam gets 26 mentions, notwithstanding right-wing extremists having killed 86 people in the US since September 11 (only 17 less than proclaimed jihadists).  I can only guess that such an imbalanced focus follows naturally from there being "some very fine people" amongst some violent radicals.... if their point of view is similar to your own.  

The main problem therefore, is one of Situating the Estimate.  Assessment becomes problematic if there is a partisan interest in labelling a conflict to meet a pre-conceived government or personal aim.  Such a polemicized view cannot help but lead to costly, ill-informed decisions, interventions with poorly-devised strategies, and making enemies where none may have existed.  Much like the default Cold War mindset painting many low-intensity conflicts as Communist revolutions, many now see a jihadist behind every violent act, regardless of any contrary evidence.

Mind you, the document itself reads more like some shallow, platitude-filled campaign speech than anything that could realistically be called a "strategy,"  so I'm not sure how seriously it should be taken -- other than providing insight into the thinking of those who produced it.


----------



## brihard

Indeed. My last three national security referrals have decidedly *not* been islamist inspired. Radicalization is far from monopolized by that particular threat vector.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest from New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland  Security - examples local, but also includes a bit of broader analysis ...


> *Background*
> 
> ISIS—also referred to as the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, the Islamic State, or Daesh—is a Salafi-jihadist militant group that split from al-Qa’ida in June 2014 to establish its self-proclaimed caliphate.
> 
> ISIS has 13 official affiliates throughout Africa, Asia, and the Middle East, and claims responsibility for operations on behalf of these affiliates in an attempt to highlight a global reach. ISIS’s official media outlet that produces propaganda, al-Hayat Media Center, releases weekly updates detailing the casualties and equipment losses of its enemies.
> 
> Since ISIS’s territorial peak in 2015, the group has lost approximately 99 percent of its land holdings in Iraq and Syria, including Raqqa, its self-proclaimed capital, and Mosul, its largest conquered city. Due to this loss of territory, ISIS is now primarily operating in the Euphrates River Valley along the Iraq and Syria border and reverting to insurgent tactics.
> 
> *Threat to New Jersey: Moderate*
> 
> The terror threat from ISIS to New Jersey is moderate due to the group’s ability to inspire homegrown violent extremists (HVEs) to conduct attacks in the State and surrounding region on behalf of the organization ...


Full one-pager attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A couple of American reports out ...


> *National Counterterrorism Center Report: Envisioning the Emergence of Shia Homegrown Violent Extremist Plotters in the US *
> 
> We assess that a Shia homegrown violent extremist (HVE) attack in the US is highly unlikely absent a catalyzing event that could galvanize some US-based Shia to engage independently in violence. Given sustained bilateral US-Iran tensions, the occurrence of such a catalyst could prompt Shia HVE activity relatively quickly, underscoring the benefits of early engagement with Shia communities about indicators of HVE radicalization. Potential triggering events for such Shia HVE violence include US military action against Iran and Lebanese Hizballah, Shia leadership or senior clerics sanctioning violence in the US, prominent Sunni government attacks on Shia, or high-profile anti-Shia activity in the US, judging from the results of a structured NCTC brainstorming exercise.
> 
> There are no confirmed cases of Shia HVEs who plotted attacks in the US, probably because support for fundamentalist ideology is less prevalent among US Shia than US Sunnis, the hierarchical nature of Shiism, and the absence of a violent triggering event against Shia overseas or in the US. Even if Shia HVE plotting were to emerge, the pool of Shia HVEs would be smaller than that of Sunni HVEs, limiting the scale of the potential threat.
> 
> We identified three key enablers that would probably increase the likelihood of Shia HVEs mobilizing to violence in the wake of a catalyzing event: the emergence of charismatic US-based Shia extremist voices, a persistent online Shia extremist cohort advocating violence in the US, and anti-US rhetoric from Shia media calling for violence in the US ...


More @ link here.


> *National Counterterrorism Center Guide: Sunni Extremist Attacks and Plots in the US Before 9/11 ****
> 
> NCTC assesses that the Sunni extremist threat to the US before 9/11 was characterized by diverse extremist organizations and lone actors motivated by multiple ideological narratives and other factors, including Salafi jihadism, Palestinian nationalism, theological disputes within Islam, anti-Semitism, and anti-Hindu sentiments. We have identified a dozen successful attacks, four disrupted plots, and one attempt to set up an extremist training camp in the US between 1973 and 2001, underscoring the persistent threat from al-Qa‘ida–associated extremists, Palestinian terrorist groups, and Sunni extremist lone actors in the decades leading up to 9/11. These extremists chose a wide array of targets, with the majority of their attacks before 1993 focused on Hindu, Jewish, or Muslim individuals or institutions. Most attacks after that date were against civilian or US Government targets, because of al-Qa‘ida–associated extremists’ focus on indiscriminate mass casualty attacks. In some cases, we lack clear insight into the attackers’ motivations because of information gaps, and FBI disagrees about the motivations underlying two of these attacks ...


More @ link here

*** - For some extra "after" data, here's a July 2017 report, _"National Counterterrorism Center Guide: Sunni Violent Extremist Attacks in the US Since 9/11"_


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Just a small point here: Iran is mostly a Shia muslim country, whereof Saudi Arabia is mostly Sunni and of the Salafist school. The former teaches that jihad is an internal struggle to God, while the former teaches that jihad is an actual fight in the physical world against all non-believers.

Question: By associating with the Saudis as opposed to Iran, is the West backing the wrong horse?


----------



## Journeyman

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Question: By associating with the Saudis as opposed to Iran, is the West backing the wrong horse?


Hand-wringing over religious-based terrorism only lasts until one gets to the oil reserve metric;  KSA has 267M barrels, and Iran has 158M.  We can only sustain so much angst at the occasional chopped-up journalist and war crimes in Yemen.   :


----------



## Jarnhamar

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hand-wringing over religious-based terrorism only lasts until one gets to the oil reserve metric;  KSA has 267M barrels, and Iran has 158M.  We can only sustain so much angst at the occasional chopped-up journalist and war crimes in Yemen.   :


Are you suggesting our western righteousness is proportional to the price at the gas pumps?


----------



## Journeyman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting our western righteousness is proportional to the price at the gas pumps?


a)  Noooo….. that would make me seem cynical.
b)  Noooo….. we have the Carbon Tax to hate on for that.


----------



## AbdullahD

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Just a small point here: Iran is mostly a Shia muslim country, whereof Saudi Arabia is mostly Sunni and of the Salafist school. The former teaches that jihad is an internal struggle to God, while the former teaches that jihad is an actual fight in the physical world against all non-believers.
> 
> Question: By associating with the Saudis as opposed to Iran, is the West backing the wrong horse?



Hey OGBD just wanted to address the fiqh assumption here mate  please don't be upset.

A link regarding jihad from one salafist school of thought my friend gave me.
https://youtu.be/Ef8NE1l_hiA



> Walaikumassalam warahmatullah wabarakaatuh
> 
> I have studied under teachers that may have classified themselves as Salafis and I used to identify myself as one in the past as well. Due to the variations within the group, I have chosen to not label myself as such but do believe in the commonly known Salafi theology.
> 
> As far as Jihad is concerned, I was never taught jihad being a purely physical struggle rather during my education, focus was placed on other spiritual manifestations of jihad.
> 
> Common Salafis are very silent on politics and Salafi teachers brush off most political questions as being "unnecessary" or "non-beneficial". In those circles, discussing jihad's present day manifestation as a physical act is almost never discussed
> 
> Especially in Saudi Arabia, scholars speaking in public would never bring up the issues that are even remotely political. And whenever jihad is mentioned in its physical sense, it is always in light of the battles fought in the past.
> 
> *People mix salafis with ikhawanis. Can't say I have wrapped my head around fully but yeah..I stay out of these topics lately.*



Had to reach out to a friend of mine, had a discussion regarding the allegation that Salafism practices physical Jihad only. That was his response on it, I do consider him an authority on this subject. 

Due to the nature of his work, position in life etc he does not wish to be named and for that I'm sorry. I prefer quoting sources with their name.. it makes this quote far weaker I understand.. it checks out in my books if that matters.. any rate.. it is what it is. The asterix parts was from another part of the conversation. 

Now regarding Saudi.. yeah, they may be the wrong horse to back.. they are definitely not Angel's. I do try to stay out politics, messy subject that it is.. but Saudi, has had issues with extremism and I am personally against salafism and see links between salafism and extremism.. but whether it is causation or correlation I do not know.

I post to correct or educate, we have an issue with a small  percentage of people within the Islamic community radicalizing and it needs to be combated. For that we need to understand it completely. Of course I also think their is a percentage of people in all ethnic, religious or ideological groups that are or at risk for extremism and we should combat that as well.

Any rate enough of my ramblings for the day.
Abdullah


----------



## YZT580

Abdullah, you are absolutely correct.  There are extremists in every group.  Unfortunately for the religion of peace, the victims of other than Islam number in the dozens per year.  The victims of Islamist extremists number in the thousands.  Most of us here of a western background don't understand the difference between the different Muslim sects.  All we know is what we read.  I fully accept that the jihadists are in the minority but there numbers are growing exponentially so how do we stop them and still support those who do not go to these extremes.  We need to stop blaming upbringing and culture and poverty and identify the true nature of the teaching that condemns Jews and Christians oh and Hindus and Buddhists as well and figure out some way to stop them.


----------



## Singh47

https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history

Why don't we cut to the case and state that any religion which condemns all non believers to hell is horrible. 

Christians or the Post Enlightenment West can't really claim moral superiority after genociding 3 continents, and still being in the process of forcing their morals down everyone's throats. 

Islam is no angel but it atleast accepts difference. 

The Liberal West wants everyone to be like them with maybe a coat of paint to hide the internal cultural homicide genocide that's taken place. 

Furthermore, and finally let us ask if Islam radical or not would even have survived without the significant support Western powers lent Turkey and later Pakistan? 

Fact is, Islam and the West were made for each other. 

Both think something written in a book trumps observed reality and put both on a masquerade every few years of how they've changed after committing another atrocity।।

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।


----------



## AbdullahD

Singh47 said:
			
		

> https://www.sikhnet.com/news/islamic-india-biggest-holocaust-world-history
> 
> Why don't we cut to the case and state that any religion which condemns all non believers to hell is horrible.
> 
> Christians or the Post Enlightenment West can't really claim moral superiority after genociding 3 continents, and still being in the process of forcing their morals down everyone's throats.
> 
> Islam is no angel but it atleast accepts difference.
> 
> The Liberal West wants everyone to be like them with maybe a coat of paint to hide the internal cultural homicide genocide that's taken place.
> 
> Furthermore, and finally let us ask if Islam radical or not would even have survived without the significant support Western powers lent Turkey and later Pakistan?
> 
> Fact is, Islam and the West were made for each other.
> 
> Both think something written in a book trumps observed reality and put both on a masquerade every few years of how they've changed after committing another atrocity।।
> 
> ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।



Extremely interesting first post, especially registering today to make this specific post.

I'll assume you are Sikh then? I followed your link, read it as best I could and noted some dates/numbers. Stated up to 6 million dead, sadly. With issues regarding Islam allegedly starting shortly after 600 ad. Which means 4,300 person per year died, either combatant or not. Which is very sad, India and the Islamic empire did have some very sad history on both sides.. but I feel it outside the scope of this thread. I am open to discussing it in another thread if you wish. 

Also I feel you confuse or tie the west and christianity as one. When it is not, separation did happen and different Christian sects act and did act differently on many subjects. Some of which lack the black eye, say the Catholics suffer from.

Also Islam I would argue heartily was at no risk what so ever of disappearing without the west. With Muslims from China, to Russia, to India, to Arabia, Morocco and Somalia any localized issues would hardly dent the Islamic world. Take a look at how Muslims in China are being treated and yet they still exist etc etc.

I have yet to run into a religion or ideology older then say a hundred years, that does not suffer a black eye of some sort. Including the Sikh community. The difference is just because members of your community does something bad in history, it does not neccesarily reflect on the community to this day.

So yes, some western/Islamic leaders have done dastardly deeds, but we can still claim that they are amongst the best. Islam as a religion and the west as political and judicial examples. The "wests" track record of righting wrongs is far superior then any other block I know of and is a model for the entire world to follow.

So yes, some "westerners" get a little to excited in thinking the west is the best and without flaws and make some silly statements. I agree to an extent with them regardless, the west specifically Canada is the best and I'm damned proud to be Canadian. Yeah we have a few flaws, but who doesnt? But before you start calling everyone out, make sure your house is in order. Cause ain't to many places that look better then Canada in the world.

Sure the west was made for Islam, but Islam was made for the west too, in fact Islam was made to be adaptable for any culture.

Abdullah


----------



## Brad Sallows

>The Liberal West wants everyone to be like them with maybe a coat of paint to hide the internal cultural homicide genocide that's taken place.

Not really.  The neocons and maybe a few others on the centre-left of the western political spectrum do.  What most of us in the "liberal west" want is to retain our institutions and for others to have the opportunity to choose to use them, if they wish.  And the east/orient, as traditionally understood, is immense, diverse, and in no danger of cultural genocide except by its own hands (see: western institutions, choosing to use).


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I don't condemn modern day Muslims for the historical wrongs of Sunni Islam (Suppression of other cultures, slavery, colonization by force, etc). I do judge the religion by how it is acting today. My sister inlaw was fighting to change it from the inside till cancer took her. If not she would have been targeted by her own government and the hardcore fundamentalists. there are others also trying to change it, but for now their are a small choir in a typhoon, one that has been funded by the Gulf States for about 2 generation. I am under no illusion that it will likley take 3-4 to fix that damage. The Shia's I worry less about, Iran has a nutbar government, but the people in general are not as easily duped by their leaders/imans as the Sunnis are. Most of the other smaller sects are to busy trying to survive in local areas to be a concern. The Ismali's here have been to busy making money and being good citizens to be up to no good.


----------



## Singh47

Dr Elst Stated in the first paragraph that it was way more than 6 million.

You're lying, obfuscating and apologizing for mass genocide. 

What do you mean both sides? I know you think that when it comes down to the 2 options you hate people who choose the third - fight back.

You saying that there were problems on both sides is like saying it's so sad that Jews fought back against Hitler when they could. 

It's worse actually because that affair was over swiftly while this one is ongoing. 

You don't strike me as anything but an intellectual sort, a nerd. So I'll leave it at that, 

Good day.


----------



## Singh47

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >The Liberal West wants everyone to be like them with maybe a coat of paint to hide the internal cultural homicide genocide that's taken place.
> 
> Not really.  The neocons and maybe a few others on the centre-left of the western political spectrum do.  What most of us in the "liberal west" want is to retain our institutions and for others to have the opportunity to choose to use them, if they wish.  And the east/orient, as traditionally understood, is immense, diverse, and in no danger of cultural genocide except by its own hands (see: western institutions, choosing to use).



I don't look towards the majority of the population, but the population who holds the majority of the power. An army is judged by its leaders, after all.


----------



## AbdullahD

Singh47 said:
			
		

> Dr Elst Stated in the first paragraph that it was way more than 6 million.



Which I referenced from the article as well as the alleged start date using the holocaust numbers, due to no agreement existing on death tolls.



> You're lying, obfuscating and apologizing for mass genocide.



I used your article as the basis for my reply, were did I lie, muddy the point or apologize for mass murder? Admitting their are issues on both sides does not lessen the gravity of the situation on either side.



> What do you mean both sides? I know you think that when it comes down to the 2 options you hate people who choose the third - fight back.



That is patently untrue.



> You saying that there were problems on both sides is like saying it's so sad that Jews fought back against Hitler when they could.



That comparison has nothing to do with this conversation. A better one would be the allied forces war crimes including russia, when fighting against Hitler or after they won.



> It's worse actually because that affair was over swiftly while this one is ongoing.



Of course bloodshed that is currently happenig is worse because it is ongoing, whereas historical bloodshed is over. That is not being debated.



> You don't strike me as anything but an intellectual sort, a nerd. So I'll leave it at that,
> 
> Good day.



A nerd eh? Considering I'm so inept I need my wife to run our household electronics lol

I have not had someone call me a nerd online before that I can recall.

My friend, you are making a mistake that I used to make. You are far to close emotionally to objectively discuss this subject. Step back, take a breath and lets discuss this like adults. Without the insults, Muslims have done some very very bad things, I do not and will not deny this. But on the same hand conflicts that are hundreds of years old are extremely complex subjects and very rarely is one side purely evil for the entirety of it. How it started and what it evolved into are usually two separate things that need to be addressed individually. You seem to think or appear to think it is all the same.

Any rate, I am happy to discuss things as I can, albeit I am not an authority on Islam or Islamic history. To be honest, Colin likely has a better grasp on some things then I do in regards to history and current events regarding Islam.

But we will not, have any more dialogue if you can not show me at least some respect. No name calling, if you think I am lying tell me so and why and allow myself the opportunity to clarify, it is more likely I was just confused or you misread me same for all the other subjects.

Abdullah


----------



## Singh47

Nothing more to discuss May the Lord of all Things

Bring Blessings on all things. 

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾ।।ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ।।


----------



## brihard

Singh47 said:
			
		

> Dr Elst Stated in the first paragraph that it was way more than 6 million.
> 
> You're lying, obfuscating and apologizing for mass genocide.
> 
> What do you mean both sides? I know you think that when it comes down to the 2 options you hate people who choose the third - fight back.
> 
> You saying that there were problems on both sides is like saying it's so sad that Jews fought back against Hitler when they could.
> 
> It's worse actually because that affair was over swiftly while this one is ongoing.
> 
> You don't strike me as anything but an intellectual sort, a nerd. So I'll leave it at that,
> 
> Good day.



You are badly out of line if you think that’s how you appropriately approach discussions here. You’re a couple of days and a couple of posts in, and are attacking a member who is quite reasonably discussing things. You’ve denounced him as an apologist for genocide and a liar, and are simply attacking him personally. All of that based on absolutely nothing. Ad hominem attacks on his credibility do nothing to bolster your own position.

If you wish to have any future as a member of this site, you’re not on a good track.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Ironically this thread seems to be derailing, microcosm-like, in a fashion similar to the whole 'Global Terrorism' thing...

"A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt." Aldous Huxley


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ironically this thread seems to be derailing, microcosm-like, in a fashion similar to the whole 'Global Terrorism' thing...
> 
> "A fanatic is a man who consciously over compensates a secret doubt." Aldous Huxley



Winston Churchill also had a saying about fanatics as well. I’m too feeble minded to remember what it is. 🥴


----------



## daftandbarmy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Winston Churchill also had a saying about fanatics as well. I’m too feeble minded to remember what it is. 🥴



'A fanatic is one who can not change his mind and will not change the subject.'


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> 'A fanatic is one who can not change his mind and will not change the subject.'



You’ve hit the nail on the head. 👍


----------



## AbdullahD

Authorities thwart terror plot in California
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/terror-plot-california-1.5115947

Army vet embraced Islam, then decides to bomb supremacist rally in southern Cali in retaliation for NZ attacks...

Idiot, violence begets violence. Kudos to the authorities. 
Abdullah


----------



## AbdullahD

Known terrorist released from prison.. early on good behavior but still allegedly sympathetic to terrorist groups...

'American Taliban' Lindh's release triggers outrage, with more 'war on terror' prisoners nearing freedom
https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/national-today-newsletter-lindh-guantanamo-wedge-politics-1.5143071

Abdullah


----------



## The Bread Guy

Target Up said:
			
		

> FBI Statement on Incident at Flint's Bishop International Airport
> 
> This morning, law enforcement officers from a number of organizations, including the FBI’s office in Flint, Michigan, responded to Flint’s Bishop International Airport after receiving the report of a stabbing of an airport police officer who is presently considered to be in stable condition.
> 
> The suspect was taken into custody at the airport and is currently being questioned by law enforcement officers.
> 
> The FBI, with our local, state, and federal law enforcement partners, is jointly investigating this incident to determine the nature and motive for the attack. We are aware of reports that the attacker made statements immediately prior to or while attacking the officer, but it is too early to determine the nature of these alleged statements or whether or not this was an act of terrorism.
> 
> Based on the information that we have at this time, we believe this to be an isolated incident. We currently have no specific, credible information that there is a threat to the Flint community ...



FBI's official blog felt this was worth a recap post-sentencing …


> When a Canadian man stabbed an airport police officer in the neck at the airport in Flint, Michigan, investigators worked quickly to find out all they could. Why did he do this? Why Flint? Was anyone helping him?
> 
> The victim was saved by other officers and a Bishop International Airport employee on the scene. The attacker, later identified as Amor M. Ftouhi, a 51-year-old Tunisian native who had lived for years in Canada, was immediately arrested.
> 
> Working closely with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), the FBI’s Detroit Field Office and its Joint Terrorism Task Force pieced together information about Ftouhi’s life and the days leading up to the June 21, 2017 attack. Agents fanned out across the country and reviewed surveillance footage from locations Ftouhi had visited in the U.S. The RCMP searched Ftouhi’s home and computer. FBI linguists spent months translating the information Canadian authorities found.
> 
> Investigators learned that Ftouhi had financial and family struggles back in Canada, and he had viewed anti-Western videos online.
> 
> “Things were not going well for him in his life, and he decided to take his jihad to a different level,” said FBI Special Agent Todd Reineck, who worked the case out of the FBI’s Detroit Field Office.
> 
> Investigators found that Ftouhi had looked into how to purchase a gun in the United States and thought Michigan would be the best place for him to buy one. Ftouhi had also carefully researched how to use a gun, and he specifically had an interest in targeting police.
> 
> A few days before the attack, Ftouhi left his wife and children behind in Canada and came to the United States, crossing the border in New York before driving to Michigan. Once he arrived in Michigan, Ftouhi repeatedly tried to buy an assault rifle, but he was turned down each time because he was not a U.S. citizen.
> 
> “There’s a sense of relief and that justice was served.”
> Todd Reineck, special agent, FBI Detroit
> 
> Instead, Ftouhi bought a knife and searched his phone’s GPS for the nearest international airport—which happened to be Bishop International in Flint. He canvassed the airport, learning where the police officers were stationed. The next day, Ftouhi went back to the airport and carried out the attack. He approached the police officer, dropped his backpack, pulled out a knife, and repeatedly stabbed the victim.
> 
> “His goal was to kill law enforcement or the military, and he told us even if he killed innocent people, Ftouhi thought that was okay,” Reineck said.
> 
> Coincidentally there was a meeting of local law enforcement happening in an airport conference room, just a few feet from where the officer had been stabbed. Ftouhi had no opportunity to get away.
> 
> Ftouhi told police he worked alone, and investigators found no evidence of anyone helping him. He was convicted of terrorism charges in November 2018 and sentenced to life in prison in April 2019.
> 
> Reineck and the investigative team got to know the victim officer over the course of the investigation. They credit the officer himself, as well as an airport maintenance worker who rushed to save him, as the true heroes.
> 
> “A lot of guys here in the office now consider him a friend,” Reineck said, noting many in the FBI office already knew the officer from the local law enforcement community. “We’ve gone through this process with him, and we know he’s relieved that it’s over. There’s a sense of relief and that justice was served.”


----------



## Jarnhamar

Did they ever release the name of the man who used a fuel truck full of fuel to ram an airplane 3 times on the runway at the Pearson airport last May?


----------



## The Bread Guy

What may be next for ISIS, AQ, from the folks at New Jersey's DHS ...


----------



## mariomike

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Did they ever release the name of the man who used a fuel truck full of fuel to ram an airplane 3 times on the runway at the Pearson airport last May?



This is the news report,



> Police say that the tanker truck hit the plane, spun it around, and hit it in three more places.
> https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/05/plane-and-fuel-truck-collide-torontos-pearson-airport/
> 
> < snip > the driver of the Menzies truck was charged with dangerous operation of a motor vehicle.



No report of Islamic terrorism.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This just out from a U.N. committee -- summary (highlights mine):


> With the fall of Baghuz, Syrian Arab Republic, in March 2019, *the geographical so-called “caliphate” of Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) has ceased to exist and the group has continued its evolution into a mainly covert network*. Its leadership is primarily in Iraq, while its centre of gravity remains in Iraq, the Syrian Arab Republic and areas of the immediate neighbourhood. *The leadership aims to adapt, survive and consolidate in the core area and to establish sleeper cells at the local level in preparation for eventual resurgence, while using propaganda to maintain the group’s reputation as the leading global terrorist brand – the “virtual caliphate”. When it has the time and space to reinvest in an external operations capability, ISIL will direct and facilitate international attacks in addition to the ISIL-inspired attacks that continue to occur in many locations around the world.*
> 
> Al-Qaida (QDe.004) remains resilient, although the health and longevity of its leader, Aiman Muhammed Rabi al-Zawahiri (QDi.006), and how the succession will work are in doubt. *Groups aligned with Al-Qaida are stronger than their ISIL counterparts in Idlib, Syrian Arab Republic, Yemen, Somalia and much of West Africa. The largest concentrations of active foreign terrorist fighters are in Idlib and Afghanistan, the majority of whom are aligned with Al-Qaida. ISIL, however, remains much stronger than Al-Qaida in terms of finances, media profile and current combat experience and terrorist expertise and remains the more immediate threat to global security.*
> 
> The most striking international developments during the period under review include *the growing ambition and reach of terrorist groups in the Sahel and West Africa, where fighters aligned with Al-Qaida and ISIL collaborate to undermine fragile national jurisdictions. The number of regional States threatened with contagion from insurgencies in the Sahel and Nigeria has increased. The ability of local authorities to cope with terrorist challenges in Afghanistan, Libya and Somalia remains limited*. Meanwhile, the Easter Sunday attacks in Sri Lanka show the continuing appeal of ISIL propaganda and the risk that indigenous cells may incubate in unexpected locations and generate a significant terrorist capability. These and other ISIL attacks on places of worship, alongside the attacks in Christchurch, New Zealand, of March 2019, offer a troubling narrative of escalating interfaith conflict.
> 
> The related issues of foreign terrorist fighters, returnees, relocators and detainees in the conflict zone have become more urgent since the fall of Baghuz. Member States also report pressing domestic security concerns, including with regard to radicalization in prisons and releases of terrorist prisoners, while only a few have the expertise and capacity to manage this range of counter-terrorist challenges successfully.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The related issues of foreign terrorist fighters, returnees, relocators and detainees in the conflict zone have become more urgent since the fall of Baghuz. Member States also report pressing domestic security concerns, including with regard to radicalization in prisons and releases of terrorist prisoners, while only a few have the expertise and capacity to manage this range of counter-terrorist challenges successfully.


This is a portion I would have highlighted, especially since it won't be acted upon in any sort of effective manner in an election year.


(It's also interesting that a UN committee provided a clear [non-waffling] appraisal of the situation, but that's a separate rant).


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> (It's also interesting that a UN committee provided a clear [non-waffling] appraisal of the situation, but that's a separate rant).


#PlanetsAligned or, to use an Italian phrase, it happens everytime a Pope dies ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Note dual citizenship of some of the bad guys ...


> … This Reference Aid examines tactics and targets garnered from a review of attacks or disrupted terrorist operations from 2012-2018 linked to either Lebanese Hizballah (LH) or Iran. It identifies behaviors and indicators that may rise to the level for suspicious activity reporting in areas such as recruitment, acquisition of expertise, materiel and weapons storage, target type, and operational security measures, which could assist federal, state, local, tribal, and territorial government counterterrorism agencies, law enforcement officials, and private sector partners in detecting, preventing, preempting, and disrupting potential terrorist activity in the Homeland. This Reference Aid does not imply these indicators would necessarily be observed or detected in every situation or that LH and Iran necessarily use the same tactics or demonstrate the same indicators. Some of these detection opportunities may come during the course of normal investigations into illegal activities in the United States such as illicit travel or smuggling of drugs, weapons, or cash, and lead to the discovery of pre-operational activity. A version of this Reference Aid’s infographic was also included as an appendix to a previously published Intelligence Assessment. Information in this Reference Aid is current as of 16 May 2019 ...


More in attached report.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Not sure if this has been posted previously, if it has, my apologies. From the good folks at Lawfare:



> Canadian Islamic State Suspect Extradited to the United States
> 
> By Preston Lim Friday, November 15, 2019, 11:59 AM
> 
> Abdullahi Ahmed Abdullahi, a Canadian national and former San Diego resident, appeared in U.S. federal court on Oct. 25, following his extradition from Canada to the United States on terror charges. Abdullahi lived in Minneapolis and San Diego before “moving to Canada and becoming a naturalized Canadian citizen.” In a press release, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of California revealed that Abdullahi has been charged in a two-count indictment with “conspiring to provide, and providing, material support to terrorists.”
> 
> The unsealed indictment references five co-conspirators, all of whom died fighting for the Islamic State in Syria.
> 
> Thanks to the testimony of Abdirahman Bashir, one of Abdullahi’s cousins, federal prosecutors now have a fairly complete picture of how Abdullahi and his co-conspirators came to support the Islamic State. CBC reports that Bashir, who became an FBI informant, provided testimony in a 2018 sentencing hearing for an Islamic State supporter. Bashir “offered [the bureau] insights into [the Islamic State’s] covert communications and persuasive recruiting tactics.” In his testimony, Bashir named and described the five co-conspirators: Hamse and Hersi Kariye, Hanad Mohallim, Mahad Hersi, and Douglas McCain. Bashir indicated that, as young boys, he and Abdullahi looked up to their two older cousins, Hamse and Hersi Kariye. The Kariye brothers led what Bashir described as a “thug lifestyle,” but after becoming radicalized, they embraced fundamentalist Islamic tenets and began to impart the importance of jihad to Bashir, Abdullahi, and another cousin, Hanad Mohallim. The Kariyes; Mohallim; another cousin, Mahad Hersi; and a family friend, Douglas McCain—the five co-conspirators referenced in the indictment—eventually traveled to Syria to wage jihad.
> 
> The indictment detailed a wealth of evidence supporting the two counts against Abdullahi—one charging him with “conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists” and the other charging him with “providing material support to terrorists.” Under the first count, the indictment notes, Abdullahi “agreed to travel to Syria to support and join terrorist fighters,” agreed and encouraged others to commit crimes against non-Muslims “to obtain money and items to finance and support … travel to Syria,” and “agreed to send, did send, and caused others to send money via Western Union to other members of the conspiracy.” The second count repeats many of the allegations from the first count. The first count also alleges that Abdullahi played a role in the January 2014 robbery of an Edmonton, Alberta, jewelry store. The Edmonton Journal reports that on Oct. 18, just before Abdullahi’s extradition, Alberta’s Crown Prosecution Service stayed its armed robbery with a firearm charge against Abdullahi. A Crown spokesperson said that “there was no reasonable likelihood of conviction” on that count.
> 
> Canadian authorities arrested Abdullahi in September 2017 and extradited him to the United States on Oct. 24, 2019. Justice John S. Little of the Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta—the province’s superior court—committed Abdullahi for extradition in May 2018. As Justice Little explained in his memorandum of decision, in order to extradite a person, the judge must be satisfied that “had the [specified] acts occurred in Canada, prosecution would be justified.” Justice Little stressed that the role of the extradition judge “is a modest one … the sole purpose of an extradition hearing is to ensure that the evidence establishes a prima facie case that the extradition crime has been committed.” The evidence indicated that Abdullahi “provided funds to people for their use in fighting for ISIS.” Justice Little was satisfied that “had the acts occurred in Canada, prosecution would be justified” and that Abdullahi was “indeed the person sought by the United States,” and thus ordered Abdullahi’s committal into custody. Abdullahi appealed the decision up to the Court of Appeal of Alberta, but a three-judge panel affirmed Little’s decision, writing that the “extradition judge properly identified the test for committal.” Abdullahi’s case will now make its way through the U.S. federal judicial system.



Link (original link has links to other articles)


----------



## The Bread Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Here in Canada ...
> 
> 
> 
> A 29-year-old Quebec man has been found guilty of attempting to leave Canada to commit terrorist acts.
> 
> Ismael Habib is the first adult tried under a section of Canada's Anti-terrorism Act enacted by the former Stephen Harper government in 2013.
> 
> During the ​trial, it was revealed that Habib told an undercover RCMP officer posing as a crime boss peddling fake passports that it was his "duty" to fight jihad alongside ISIS in Syria.
> 
> He also confessed to whipping a prisoner on a 2013 trip to Syria. Those confessions were taped by RCMP officers.
> 
> In a decision read out Monday afternoon in Quebec Court, Judge Serge Délisle questioned Habib's testimony that he had left Canada in 2013 seeking to be with his family.
> 
> Délisle said that was inconsistent with how he went online looking for girlfriend ...
Click to expand...

The latest from the QC Court of Appeal (news shared via Public Prosecution Service of Canada):  he stays in jail & no new trial ...


> The Quebec Court of Appeal today (29 Nov 2019) released its decision on the conviction and sentence appeals of Ismael Habib, 32. The Court dismissed the appeals and upheld the conviction and sentence.
> 
> Mr. Habib was convicted in 2017 of attempting to leave Canada to commit an act of terrorism, contrary to section 83.181 of the Criminal Code, and was sentenced to eight years' imprisonment.
> 
> He was also sentenced to one year in prison, to be served consecutively, for making a false or misleading statement to obtain a passport, contrary to section 57(2) of the Criminal Code, for a total of nine years.
> 
> The Court confirmed that a "Mr. Big type" operation was an appropriate method for obtaining admissions regarding criminal intent of an ongoing offence and that the operation did not constitute entrapment.
> 
> Mr. Habib has 60 days to decide whether to seek leave to appeal with the Supreme Court of Canada.
> 
> The Public Prosecution Service of Canada is responsible for prosecuting offences under federal jurisdiction in a manner that is free of any improper influence and that respects the public interest. The PPSC is also responsible for providing prosecution-related advice to law enforcement agencies across Canada.


QC Ct of Appeal decision in French attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Some former French troops at it ...


> Some 30 French soldiers have joined jihadist organizations in Syria and Iraq since 2012, bringing their experience and knowledge of the war, according to a report by the Center for the Analysis of Terrorism (Centre d'analyse du terrorisme, CAT).
> 
> The report, which is due to be published this weekend, the content of which Le Figaro revealed on Wednesday 18 December, documents the journeys of these soldiers, sometimes through renowned units - the Foreign Legion, marine riflemen, paratroopers - who have decided to join the ranks of the jihad after individual journeys that are very different from each other.
> 
> The report, which details the backgrounds of 23 individuals by focusing on their motivations, argues that while the army is an obvious "strategic recruitment target", "Islamist radicalisation remains marginal within the armies". Some had prepared their projects before taking up the uniform. Others considered it after they left the army, or even during. Some have deserted, refusing to fight against Muslims. Some were Muslims themselves, having converted ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

One way France is dealing with things ...


> The trial this month was exceptional for a country that has resisted repatriating or extraditing terrorism suspects from battlegrounds in Iraq and Syria.
> 
> A Paris judge heard cases against 24 men and women charged with links to the Islamic State. Witnesses were called. Prosecutors and defense lawyers made their statements. Verdicts were rendered.
> 
> But 19 of the defendants were presumed dead, and all were tried in absentia. It was, as the French news media have called it, a “ghost trial.”
> 
> Antoine Ory, one of the defense lawyers, acknowledged as much. “In France, in 2020, we refuse to repatriate the living but we try the dead,” he told the court.
> 
> The trial, which concluded last week with convictions for everyone, brought to light one of France’s paradoxes when it comes to handling such cases.
> 
> The government wants to prosecute terrorism suspects, hoping to prevent them from falling through legal cracks and trying to piece together how the networks operated for evidence in future trials against the living.
> 
> But it does not want the trials conducted on its territory ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

More from France (original article in French -- Google translate in quote box) ...


> A former spokesman for the Syrian armed Islamist group Jaych al Islam (Army of Islam), suspected of torture and war crimes, was arrested on Wednesday in France and charged on Friday, AFP learned from a judicial source.
> 
> The man, born in 1988 and who was in France on an Erasmus student visa, was arrested in Marseille. At the end of 48 hours in police custody, he was presented to a Parisian investigating judge who indicted him in particular for "acts of torture and complicity", "war crimes" and "complicity in enforced disappearances" .
> 
> According to a joint press release from three NGOs, FIDH (International Federation for Human Rights), SCM (Syrian Center for Media and Freedom of Expression) and LDH (League for Human Rights), the man arrested was call Islam Alloush, but is actually called Majdi Mustafa Nameh ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Streatham attacker freed from jail days ago after terror conviction

Sudesh Amman, who was shot dead by police, was under police surveillance following release 

In remarks reported in 2018 Boon said: “His fascination with dying in the name of terrorism was clear in a notepad we recovered from his home. Amman had scrawled his ‘life goals’ in the notepad and top of the list, above family activities, was dying a martyr and going to ‘Jannah’ – the afterlife.”

Boon continued: “It’s not clear how Amman became radicalised but it is apparent from his messages that it had been at least a year in development. Whatever the circumstances, this case is a reminder of the need to be vigilant to signs of radicalisation and report it.”

A Whitehall source claimed that the attack was evidence that the prime minister should be able to enact harsher anti-terror laws. “There was nothing that could be done to keep him behind bars under existing laws, hence why he was under surveillance and strict licensing conditions,” the source said.

In another echo of Khan’s attack, Amman was wearing a fake suicide vest, described by some eyewitnesses as containing canister-like objects. Police said they were able to establish quickly it was a hoax device after the attacker had been shot.

Police and intelligence agencies only have resources to monitor a handful of individuals at one time, indicating that anybody under active surveillance will have been deemed to be a serious threat.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/02/streatham-attacker-was-released-terror-offender-sudesh-amman


----------



## The Bread Guy

Here in Canada ...


> At Suliman Mohamed’s 2016 sentencing for trying to join ISIS, the Ottawa judge presiding over his case did not hold back, scolding those aligned with the terrorist group for “embracing the devil.”
> 
> Mohamed got seven years.
> 
> But three years later, he was already out of prison on statutory release, although his parole report said he had not abandoned extremist ideology and remained a “significant” risk.
> 
> He was one of five terrorism offenders released from Canadian prisons in 2019, despite concerns raised by parole boards that four of them still posed a risk to public safety.
> 
> At least three more could be released this year ...


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Here in Canada ...



Of course he's out. 

I was told during basic Corrections training "There are no bad people, they  just do bad things".

Hogwash of course


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Of course he's out.
> 
> I was told during basic Corrections training "There are no bad people, they  just do bad things".
> 
> Hogwash of course


Plus it doesn't sound like much is being done to de-radicalize the ones who may be able to be de-radicalized.  Then again, from what little I know second-hand, that's not the only service that would be useful in jail that doesn't get offered for a variety of reasons.


----------



## PuckChaser

Plot twist: After all the gaslighting about far-right insider threats recently, ISIL is still an attractive cause to support to conduct domestic terror attacks. Article is unclear on whether Bridges was speaking to an ISIL member and the FBI intercepted the chats, or he believed the FBI agent was an ISIL member.

https://apnews.com/article/us-soldier-plot-blow-up-nyc-memorial-2b7225db9f47a21097b981ab0e5e3687


> US soldier arrested in plot to blow up NYC 9/11 Memorial​By LARRY NEUMEISTER
> 
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) — A U.S. Army soldier was arrested Tuesday in Georgia on terrorism charges after he spoke online about plots to blow up New York City’s 9/11 Memorial and other landmarks and attack U.S. soldiers in the Middle East, authorities said. Cole James Bridges of Stow, Ohio, was in custody on charges of attempted material support of a terrorist organization — the Islamic State group — and attempted murder of a military member, said Nicholas Biase, a spokesperson for Manhattan federal prosecutors.
> 
> The 20-year-old soldier, also known as Cole Gonzales, was with the Third Infantry Division out of Fort Stewart, Georgia, when he thought he was communicating with the Islamic State online about the terrorism plots, Biase said. Unbeknownst to Bridges, an FBI employee was in on the chat as Bridges provided detailed instructions on tactics and manuals and advice about attacking the memorial and other targets in New York City, Biase said.
> 
> “As we allege today, Bridges, a private in the U.S. Army, betrayed our country and his unit when he plotted with someone he believed was an ISIS sympathizer to help ISIS attack and kill U.S. soldiers in the Middle East,” said William F. Sweeney Jr., head of New York City’s FBI office.
> “Fortunately, the person with whom he communicated was an FBI employee, and we were able to prevent his evil desires from coming to fruition,” Sweeney said in a release.
> 
> “Our troops risk their lives for our country, but they should never face such peril at the hands of one of their own,” U.S. Attorney Audrey Strauss said.
> Bridges was scheduled to make an initial appearance in federal court in Augusta, Georgia, on Thursday.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Remember Hassan Diab? This from 2016 ....


The Bread Guy said:


> The very latest:  back in France, and out of jail under house arrest ...


Earlier this month, it appears a French high court of appeal says, "yes, we want a trial."  

So Canada gets to decide again whether to extradite him.


----------



## CBH99

What the actual hell...

Not charged with a crime.  Can’t present any evidence to suggest he was even involved.  And yet taken into custody and sent to another country “just because they asked” — only to eventually be free’d from custody without charge.  Then comes home.  

If we ever asked a judge to sign off on a warrant for arrest for someone who we a) hadn’t charged with a crime, and b) had no evidence to result suggest he committed a crime... I would be in for some serious career troubles.  

How on earth did we allow this??


----------



## SeaKingTacco

CBH99 said:


> What the actual hell...
> 
> Not charged with a crime.  Can’t present any evidence to suggest he was even involved.  And yet taken into custody and sent to another country “just because they asked” — only to eventually be free’d from custody without charge.  Then comes home.
> 
> If we ever asked a judge to sign off on a warrant for arrest for someone who we a) hadn’t charged with a crime, and b) had no evidence to result suggest he committed a crime... I would be in for some serious career troubles.
> 
> How on earth did we allow this??


And yet, we cannot get rid of a certain Chinese CEO....


----------



## FJAG

CBH99 said:


> What the actual hell...
> 
> Not charged with a crime.  Can’t present any evidence to suggest he was even involved.  And yet taken into custody and sent to another country “just because they asked” — only to eventually be free’d from custody without charge.  Then comes home.
> 
> If we ever asked a judge to sign off on a warrant for arrest for someone who we a) hadn’t charged with a crime, and b) had no evidence to result suggest he committed a crime... I would be in for some serious career troubles.
> 
> How on earth did we allow this??


The Extradition Act does not require that a charge be laid within the jurisdiction seeking extradition. S 3(1) of the act requires the extradition to be "for the purpose of prosecution" amongst other things. S 33(1) requires that the request for extradition to be accompanied by "a document summarizing the evidence available to the extradition partner for use in the prosecution". 

You need to remember that in some civil law jurisdictions there is a criminal pre-trial process which may involve an examining magistrate/judge as part of the pre-trial and charging process. Individuals suspected of offences can be compelled to attend before an investigating magistrate/judge who determines if the individual merits trial by a court. If the magistrate/judge finds there is insufficient evidence then no trial is ordered. If more evidence is uncovered later the case can be reopened for further determination. In effect the investigating magistrate/judge is a part of the investigative and prosecutorial evaluation part of certain cases and is conducted prior to what we here would consider "laying a charge" however it is clearly within the ambit of "the purpose of prosecution"

🍻


----------



## The Bread Guy

In the southern hemisphere ....


> New Zealand police on Friday shot and killed a knife-wielding "extremist" who was known to authorities, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said, after he stabbed and wounded at least six people in a supermarket.
> 
> The attacker, a Sri Lankan national who had been in New Zealand for 10 years, was inspired by the Islamic State militant group and was being monitored constantly, Ardern said.
> 
> "A violent extremist undertook a terrorist attack on innocent New Zealanders," Ardern told a briefing.
> 
> "He obviously was a supporter of ISIS ideology," she said, referring to Islamic State.
> 
> The attacker, who was not identified, had been a "person of interest" for about five years, Ardern said, adding that he had been killed within 60 seconds of beginning his attack in the city of Auckland ...


----------



## CBH99

60 seconds from starting his intended murder spree to being dead himself.  

Bravo to all those involved.  Truly.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Well, well, well ...


> Al-Qaeda’s leader, rumored dead, appears in video for 9/11 anniversary​Ayman al-Zawahiri speaks of ‘Judaization of Jerusalem,’ mentions US withdrawal from Afghanistan, but not Taliban takeover — suggesting the footage may not be recent ...​


----------



## Jarnhamar

Another round of 'were they charged or released?'

Toronto men caught with bomb-making manuals, al-Qaeda literature on phones, documents allege​








						Toronto men caught with bomb-making manuals, al-Qaeda literature on phones, documents allege  | Globalnews.ca
					

Two reports by the RCMP’s national security enforcement team provide the first look at why the alleged associates were arrested on the grounds they might commit terrorist offences.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Another round of 'were they charged or released?'
> 
> Toronto men caught with bomb-making manuals, al-Qaeda literature on phones, documents allege​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronto men caught with bomb-making manuals, al-Qaeda literature on phones, documents allege  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Two reports by the RCMP’s national security enforcement team provide the first look at why the alleged associates were arrested on the grounds they might commit terrorist offences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


From the article    ...


> ... Mohamed’s peace bond went into effect in May (2021). It lasts four years. Khoshnood’s peace bond was granted in August (2021) and is more limited in duration, lasting only 10 months ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Meanwhile, in the U.K., howdy neighbour!


> Residents living near a nuclear submarine base in Scotland have alerted police to suspicious activity on land rented by a Taliban supporter.
> 
> Waheed Totakhyl once publicly called for the death of US soldiers in *Afghanistan*, and has a brother currently serving as a military commander with the *Taliban* in Kabul.
> 
> He leases Aldonaig Farm, situated four miles from HMNB Clyde. Also known as Faslane, the base on Gare Loch in Argyll and Bute is where the Royal Navy house the UK fleet of nuclear submarines.
> 
> Ministry of Defence police were contacted by local residents in August, who witnessed behaviour on Aldonaig farm which they regarded as suspicious ...


----------



## OldSolduer

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K., howdy neighbour!


this is the world we live in, where a terrorist sympathizer can live where ever they please, even if it is within walking distance of a nuclear sub base.


----------



## The Bread Guy

*"(Bronx) Uber driver who plotted to join Taliban is convicted on terrorism-related charges"*

More details/back-story here in U.S. DOJ 2019 arrest news release, with initial court documentation attached.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Bread Guy said:


> Meanwhile, in the U.K., howdy neighbour!


The latest on Taliban guy renting near UK nuke subs ....


> A Taliban supporter who rents land near a UK nuclear submarine base has been told to leave the site by its Iranian owner ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

The Bread Guy said:


> The latest on Taliban guy renting near UK nuke subs ....



Iranian landlord evicting Taliban tenant in rural Scotland for being a c*nt?

That's Glasgow in microcosm for you, right there


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Iranian landlord evicting Taliban tenant in rural Scotland for being a c*nt?
> 
> That's Glasgow in microcosm for you, right there


My dear departed Da's side all live in or near Glasgow. The most disreputable, sly, sleazy, and completely fun bunch I have ever encountered.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> My dear departed Da's side all live in or near Glasgow. The most disreputable, sly, sleazy, and completely fun bunch I have ever encountered.



Love Glasgee....

The rural areas to the west around Gareloch Head etc are quite pretty, if a bit damp.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Weinie said:


> My dear departed Da's side all live in or near Glasgow. The most disreputable, sly, sleazy, and completely fun bunch I have ever encountered.


Because you've never been to Carlisle


----------



## Weinie

Kat Stevens said:


> Because you've never been to Carlisle


But now it is on my bucket list.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Bread Guy said:


> *"(Bronx) Uber driver who plotted to join Taliban is convicted on terrorism-related charges"*


More on this from the U.S. DOJ today ...


> Damian Williams, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, announced that a jury returned a guilty verdict last Friday against DELOWAR MOHAMMED HOSSAIN on both counts of the Superseding Indictment, for attempting to provide material support for terrorism and attempting to make a contribution of funds, goods, and services to the Taliban.  United States District Judge Sidney H. Stein presided over the one-week trial.
> 
> U.S. Attorney Damian Williams said: “As the jury found, Delowar Hossain made elaborate preparations to travel to Afghanistan to join the Taliban and kill American troops, and he was intercepted at JFK Airport attempting to board a flight while carrying mountain survival gear and thousands in cash for weapons to achieve his murderous plan.  I commend the excellent work of the Joint Terrorism Task Force to uncover the plot and stop Hossain, who now awaits sentencing for his crimes.”
> 
> According to court documents and the evidence at trial:
> 
> Beginning in the fall of 2018, HOSSAIN expressed his desire to travel to Afghanistan, join the Taliban, and kill American servicemembers.   Over the next approximately 10 months, HOSSAIN attempted to recruit several other individuals into his plot; attempted to contact at least one individual in Pakistan who was associated with the Taliban; saved at least approximately $10,000, with which he planned to buy weapons to use after he joined the Taliban; and bought survival gear for the mountains of Afghanistan.  During recorded conversations with two confidential sources working with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”), HOSSAIN consistently reiterated his desire to join the Taliban and kill Americans.  HOSSAIN also took steps to develop a cover story designed to disguise his extremism and evade detection by the FBI, which included traveling to Thailand on his way to Afghanistan ...


Meanwhile, ISIS's CFO seems to be a guest of the Iraqis ...


> Iraqi intelligence agents captured the financial chief of the ISIS terrorist organization, Iraq's prime minister announced Monday.
> 
> Sami Jasim, the organization's treasurer and deputy of former leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, was captured as Iraq was holding its parliamentary elections, Prime Minister Mustafa al-Kadhimi said ...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> But now it is on my bucket list.



Carlisle is awesome. 

The weather up there? Less so


----------



## The Bread Guy

_British government orders security review after deadly terror attack on MP_​


> The fatal stabbing of British lawmaker David Amess was a terrorist incident with possible links to Islamist extremism, police said Saturday, as the government ordered a review of safety measures to protect MPs.
> 
> Veteran Conservative MP David Amess, 69, was talking with voters at a church in the small town of Leigh-on-Sea east of London when he was stabbed to death on Friday.
> 
> Police said they arrested a 25-year-old suspect and were investigating "a potential motivation linked to Islamist extremism"
> 
> The fatal stabbing has "been declared as a terrorist incident, with the investigation being led by Counter Terrorism Policing," the police said in a statement, adding that the investigation is in the "very early stages".
> 
> Multiple UK media outlets, citing sources, reported that the suspect was believed to be a British national with Somali heritage ...


----------



## Jarnhamar

The Bread Guy said:


> "...for attempting to provide material support for terrorism and attempting to make a contribution of funds, goods, and services to the Taliban"



Dude should have called it humanitarian aid.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:


> Dude should have called it humanitarian aid.


Just on a smaller scale, right?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Next!


> A New York man was sentenced today to 30 years in prison for attempting to provide material support and resources to the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham, aka ISIS. The defendant was also sentenced to 100 months, or more than eight years’, imprisonment for assaulting a federal correctional officer and possessing contraband at the Metropolitan Detention Center (MDC) in Brooklyn, New York, to run consecutive to the terrorism sentence.
> 
> Ali Saleh, 28, of Queens, pleaded guilty to attempting to provide material support to ISIS in July 2018. According to court documents, starting in 2013, Saleh swore an oath of allegiance to ISIS and embraced ISIS’s directive to either travel to the Middle East or take action at home in support of ISIS. On Aug. 25, 2014, Saleh stated online, “I’m ready to die for the Caliphate, prison is nothing.” On Aug. 28, 2014, Saleh stated online, “Lets be clear the Muslims in the khilafah [caliphate] need help, the one who is capable to go over and help the Muslims must go and help.” That same day, Saleh made an airline reservation to travel from New York to Turkey, but was ultimately prevented from traveling because his parents took away his passport.
> 
> “Saleh made numerous attempts to travel overseas to join ISIS, and when those efforts failed, attempted to assist others in joining the terrorist organization,” said Assistant Attorney General Matthew G. Olsen for the Justice Department’s National Security Division ...​


----------



## The Bread Guy

The Bread Guy said:


> Remember Hassan Diab? This from 2016 ....
> 
> Earlier this month, it appears a French high court of appeal says, "yes, we want a trial."
> 
> So Canada gets to decide again whether to extradite him.


Bumped with the latest ...


> *A Canadian academic accused of a 1980 bombing outside a Paris synagogue will face trial in 2023, five years after he was freed due to lack of evidence.
> *
> France says Lebanese-born sociology professor Hassan Diab was a member of a Palestinian militant group and planted a bomb that killed four and wounded 40.
> 
> Last year, France's court of appeal overturned a lower court decision to release Mr Diab and allow his return to Canada after three years in prison.
> Mr Diab has maintained his innocence.
> 
> French authorities have not yet requested Mr Diab's extradition to France in order to stand trial in person. His lawyers have told Canadian media he could be tried in absentia ...


----------



## The Bread Guy

In the words of Helen Hunt on Saturday Night Live, buh-bye ....








						U.S. kills al Qaeda leader Zawahiri in Kabul drone missile strike
					

The United States killed al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri with a drone missile while he stood on a balcony at his home in Kabul, U.S. officials said, the biggest blow to the militants since Osama bin Laden was shot dead more than a decade ago.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Watching al-Qaida chief's 'pattern of life' key to his death
					

WASHINGTON (AP) — As the sun was rising in Kabul on Sunday, two Hellfire missiles fired by a U.S. drone ended Ayman al-Zawahri's  decade-long reign as the leader of al-Qaida.




					apnews.com
				











						How the CIA identified and killed Al-Qaeda leader Zawahiri
					

Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri was killed in a U.S. strike in Afghanistan over the weekend, the biggest blow to the militant group since its founder Osama bin Laden was killed in 2011.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Biden says U.S. killed top al-Qaida leader in drone strike
					

The United States has killed top al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri in Kabul, Afghanistan in a drone strike, President Joe Biden said Monday.




					www.upi.com
				











						Welcome to fbi.gov | Federal Bureau of Investigation
					






					www.fbi.gov


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## daftandbarmy

The Bread Guy said:


> In the words of Helen Hunt on Saturday Night Live, buh-bye ....
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> U.S. kills al Qaeda leader Zawahiri in Kabul drone missile strike
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> The United States killed al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri with a drone missile while he stood on a balcony at his home in Kabul, U.S. officials said, the biggest blow to the militants since Osama bin Laden was shot dead more than a decade ago.
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> Watching al-Qaida chief's 'pattern of life' key to his death
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> WASHINGTON (AP) — As the sun was rising in Kabul on Sunday, two Hellfire missiles fired by a U.S. drone ended Ayman al-Zawahri's  decade-long reign as the leader of al-Qaida.
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> How the CIA identified and killed Al-Qaeda leader Zawahiri
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> Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri was killed in a U.S. strike in Afghanistan over the weekend, the biggest blow to the militant group since its founder Osama bin Laden was killed in 2011.
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> Biden says U.S. killed top al-Qaida leader in drone strike
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> The United States has killed top al-Qaida leader Ayman al-Zawahiri in Kabul, Afghanistan in a drone strike, President Joe Biden said Monday.
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> Welcome to fbi.gov | Federal Bureau of Investigation
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> View attachment 72317



2nd time lucky 












						Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda deputy is totally dead for real this time, Biden says
					

Ayman al-Zawahiri led Al Qaeda after Navy SEALs killed the terrorist group’s founder Osama bin Laden on May 1, 2011.




					taskandpurpose.com


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## The Bread Guy

Retired AF Guy said:


> Not sure if this has been posted previously, if it has, my apologies. From the good folks at Lawfare:
> 
> *Canadian Islamic State Suspect Extradited to the United States*
> 
> By Preston Lim Friday, November 15, 2019, 11:59 AM
> 
> Abdullahi Ahmed Abdullahi, a Canadian national and former San Diego resident, appeared in U.S. federal court on Oct. 25, following his extradition from Canada to the United States on terror charges. Abdullahi lived in Minneapolis and San Diego before “moving to Canada and becoming a naturalized Canadian citizen.” In a press release, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of California revealed that Abdullahi has been charged in a two-count indictment with “conspiring to provide, and providing, material support to terrorists.” ...
> 
> Link (original link has links to other articles)


The latest,  from a couple of weeks back ....


> Former San Diego Resident Sentenced for Funding ISIS Terrorist Activities in Syria​
> *Assistant U. S. Attorney Shane Harrigan (619) 546-6981 and Fred Sheppard (619) 546-8237
> NEWS RELEASE SUMMARY – October 17, 2022
> *
> SAN DIEGO – Abdullahi Ahmed Abdullahi, a Canadian national and former resident of San Diego, was sentenced in federal court today to 20 years in prison for conspiring with others to provide material support to terrorists engaged in violent activities such as murder, kidnapping and maiming of persons in Syria.
> “Today we have delivered justice to a man who directly funded violent acts of terrorism,” said U.S. Attorney Randy Grossman. “Our most important job is protecting Americans from terrorists. The case against Abdullahi has done just that.” ...


Full text of US DOJ release also attached in case link doesn't work


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