# Are we becoming too Politically Correct?



## Mediman14 (5 Jan 2021)

We all witness in todays society the amount of changes that have taken place. Some is good changes, some is just silly. An example of this is the recent change of sports team being force to change their names because after many years some people are taking offense to it. The NFL team Washington Redskins after 50 + years now have to change their name. I could think of many other things to complain about, such as social policies, etc.
   It been awhile since my basic training days, I do remember people being called out for their mistakes, not to embarrass them, but to correct an inappropriate action. I do recognize many things we did in the CAF was not right but we have gone to the extreme. These days, we can't do that without someone feeling ashamed or feel that everyone is out to get them. I could think of so many instances within the CAF that are to politically correct.

_Mod edit to fix spelling of thread title_


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2021)

I'd say more Cancel Culture than Political Correctness. One was a correction. The other is designed to make someone irrelevant.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Jan 2021)

Dude, I'm triggered  

I'm no fan of the overly aggressive PC approaches that seem in fashion. However, if I compare it to what we considered a 'normal' way to treat people 30 or 40 years ago (yes, in the Army that long) I have to say that today's approaches are vastly preferable in a variety of ways.

I'll be in the hot tub over here, waiting to be cancelled ....


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## Mediman14 (5 Jan 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Dude, I'm triggered
> 
> I'm no fan of the overly aggressive PC approaches that seem in fashion. However, if I compare it to what we considered a 'normal' way to treat people 30 or 40 years ago (yes, in the Army that long) I have to say that today's approaches are vastly preferable in a variety of ways.
> 
> I'll be in the hot tub over here, waiting to be cancelled ....


You are right about that. Some ways that people was treated 30-40 years ago is just wrong. I remember on a harrassment briefing, a question was asked, "If a person overheard a conversation between other people that offended the person over hearing it, could they make a harrassment complaint?" Maybe I am wrong, but to me this is ridiculous.


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## PMedMoe (5 Jan 2021)

Mediman14 said:


> You are right about that. Some ways that people was treated 30-40 years ago is just wrong. I remember on a harrassment briefing, a question was asked, "If a person overheard a conversation between other people that offended the person over hearing it, could they make a harrassment complaint?" Maybe I am wrong, but to me this is ridiculous.


So, if a person of colour hears two people using the "N" word in conversation, or an indigeneous person hears a conversation about how "lazy Indians are just a bunch of alcoholics", they shouldn't be offended??  Or they shouldn't report it as harrassment?


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## Quirky (5 Jan 2021)

Mediman14 said:


> You are right about that. Some ways that people was treated 30-40 years ago is just wrong. I remember on a harrassment briefing, a question was asked, "If a person overheard a conversation between other people that offended the person over hearing it, could they make a harrassment complaint?" Maybe I am wrong, but to me this is ridiculous.


Regardless of your views or opinions, know your audience.


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## YZT580 (5 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> So, if a person of colour hears two people using the "N" word in conversation, or an indigeneous person hears a conversation about how "lazy Indians are just a bunch of alcoholics", they shouldn't be offended??  Or they shouldn't report it as harrassment?


how about a politician overhears two people saying that politicians are leaches sucking the country dry.  Should he/she be offended?  Should he report it as harassment?  Please note that I am not belittling the pain that such offense can cause but we need to call it quits on the 'I am so offended that I can't sleep anymore' arguments and accept the fact that some people are just plain ignorant and leave it at that so that truly offensive attacks can be given the priority that they deserve.


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## Weinie (5 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> how about a politician overhears two people saying that politicians are leaches sucking the country dry.  Should he/she be offended?  Should he report it as harassment?  Please note that I am not belittling the pain that such offense can cause but we need to call it quits on the 'I am so offended that I can't sleep anymore' arguments and accept the fact that some people are just plain ignorant and leave it at that so that truly offensive attacks can be given the priority that they deserve.


So is there a threshold for harassment/offensive speech? A category? A race/religion/occupation? What about Newfie jokes? Your post raises the operative question.

Have some people taken it too far? Probably, but those cases tend to get ridiculed or short shrift in the administrative/justice system. Are some people more easily offended either on their own behalf or someone they don't know? Yup, we see it constantly. It is a fairly recent burgeoning   phenomenon magnified by the ubiquity of social media, and therefore much more accessible to all than in times past, where most media would assess the accusation, and then often not waste ink. But we have always had some folks in that space, who got some ink.

Society tends to work to balance these things out eventually. Check out "Karens" links/videos on Youtube and other platforms. And some folks will never stop. Zealots, bigots, conspiracy theorists, opportunists, those feeling offended themselves, etc etc.

The example of politicians is probably not the most illustrative to determine what is real harassment/offensive speech. I, for one, would have to plead guilty if someone overheard my musings on a number of past and current politicians. That said, I believe that most people know what would be considered offensive/harassment. And for those who deliberately or continually cross the line....hammer them.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> how about a politician overhears two people saying that politicians are leaches sucking the country dry.  Should he/she be offended?  Should he report it as harassment?


Is it harassment if it's the truth?


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## PMedMoe (6 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> how about a politician overhears two people saying that politicians are leaches sucking the country dry.  Should he/she be offended?  Should he report it as harassment?  Please note that I am not belittling the pain that such offense can cause but we need to call it quits on the 'I am so offended that I can't sleep anymore' arguments and accept the fact that some people are just plain ignorant and leave it at that so that truly offensive attacks can be given the priority that they deserve.


IMO being belittled for your occupation is nowhere near the same as being called out for your ethnicity or religion.


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## YZT580 (6 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> IMO being belittled for your occupation is nowhere near the same as being called out for your ethnicity or religion.


unless your ethnicity is Caucasian and your religion Christian.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> So is there a threshold for harassment/offensive speech? A category? A race/religion/occupation? ...


While _far_ from perfect, there are some thresholds:  Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code lay out the arcs for hate speech, as well as criminal libel (s.297).


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## Weinie (6 Jan 2021)

milnewstbay said:


> While _far_ from perfect, there are some thresholds:  Sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code lay out the arcs for hate speech, as well as criminal libel (s.297).


I was coming at this from the lower portion of the threshold, not genocide and public incitement of hatred.


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## dimsum (6 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> IMO being belittled for your occupation is nowhere near the same as being called out for your ethnicity or religion.


For some people, their occupation _is _their religion.

By that, I mean fighter pilots


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jan 2021)

> I was coming at this from the lower portion of the threshold, not genocide and public incitement of hatred.


Well, then, there's the also-imperfect-and-messy mix of human rights legislation/regulation, with both this and the CCC laying out race and religion, if not occupation.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Jan 2021)

dimsum said:


> For some people, their occupation _is _their religion.
> 
> By that, I mean fighter pilots


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## Brash (6 Jan 2021)

Weinie said:


> So is there a threshold for harassment/offensive speech? A category? A race/religion/occupation? What about Newfie jokes? Your post raises the operative question.
> 
> Have some people taken it too far? Probably, but those cases tend to get ridiculed or short shrift in the administrative/justice system. Are some people more easily offended either on their own behalf or someone they don't know? Yup, we see it constantly. It is a fairly recent burgeoning   phenomenon magnified by the ubiquity of social media, and therefore much more accessible to all than in times past, where most media would assess the accusation, and then often not waste ink. But we have always had some folks in that space, who got some ink.
> 
> ...


In CAF/Federal Public Service? Yes.
In the general public, nothing short of hate speech/criminal harassment.
That doesn't mean you won't be judged by the court of popular public opinion.


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## Weinie (6 Jan 2021)

BrashEndeavours said:


> In CAF/Federal Public Service? Yes.
> In the general public, nothing short of hate speech/criminal harassment.
> That doesn't mean you won't be judged by the court of  (*sometime*) popular public opinion.  *EXACTLY my point*


Which has lead to the general degree of disgust with agitators/Karens/provocateurs/and the perennially bored, who are responsible for a large amount of this activity.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jan 2021)

dimsum said:


> For some people, their occupation _is _their religion.
> 
> By that, I mean fighter pilots


Hmmm..

Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Is that considered religion when you are your own god?

P.S.: Yes, I am kidding.


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## Weinie (6 Jan 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Hmmm..
> 
> Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
> 
> ...


You are obviously not a God, otherwise Dimsum would be dead.


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

Mediman14 said:


> You are right about that. Some ways that people was treated 30-40 years ago is just wrong. I remember on a harrassment briefing, a question was asked, "If a person overheard a conversation between other people that offended the person over hearing it, could they make a harrassment complaint?" Maybe I am wrong, but to me this is ridiculous.


It did happen. At out briefing in Edmonton, the answer to your question(?) is yes, a complaint can be addressed


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> So, if a person of colour hears two people using the "N" word in conversation, or an indigeneous person hears a conversation about how "lazy Indians are just a bunch of alcoholics", they shouldn't be offended??  Or they shouldn't report it as harrassment?


And what happens if one tells a unPC joke and it is overheard? You know, maybe a disparaging joke about the PM (blackface comes to mind)
 And everyone should take offence to eavesdroppers


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

dimsum said:


> For some people, their occupation _is _their religion.
> 
> By that, I mean fighter pilots


Oh the prima donnas, eh


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> And what happens if one tells a unPC joke and it is overheard? You know, maybe a disparaging joke about the PM (blackface comes to mind)
> And everyone should take offence to eavesdroppers



The harassment criteria for the Canadian Forces requires it to be directed at an individual (ie you) so over hearing something you don't like doesn't constitute harassment. The caveat is that if the comment is directed towards someone that is protected against discrimination under the _Canadian Human Rights Act _then it can constitute as being directed towards an individual and meet the harassment criteria.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Jan 2021)

I have complained about someone abusing one of their own people, which I was a witness to, and the abuser was punished. I didn't feel bad about 'squealing' at all because the offender deserved everything he got.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men [or women] to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke


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## PMedMoe (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> And everyone should take offence to eavesdroppers



Who said anything about eavesdropping?  Ever been in a big group out in the smoking area or at the mess? If someone doesn't want their conversation to be overheard, then they should do it in private.  And if they're making racist comments, they should be called out for it, regardless if someone is offended or not.


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> The harassment criteria for the Canadian Forces requires it to be directed at an individual (ie you) so over hearing something you don't like doesn't constitute harassment. The caveat is that if the comment is directed towards someone that is protected against discrimination under the _Canadian Human Rights Act _then it can constitute as being directed towards an individual and meet the harassment criteria.


Let me get this straight

(True story) My ex-girlfriend overheard a female colleague of mine stating slanderous thoughts about me with other military members present but that doesn't count, right Jarnhamar?

Because I took it to my superior (a WO) and it was dismissed

Thanks ladies and other progs (especially to that army commander- you know who you are)


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> .... maybe a disparaging joke about the PM (blackface comes to mind) ....


If you're talking at work, notwithstanding the ethics of bashing one's head of government while in uniform, should the response depend on whether one likes or dislikes the PM in question?   😉


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

milnewstbay said:


> If you're talking at work, notwithstanding the ethics of bashing one's head of government while in uniform, should the response depend on whether one likes or dislikes the PM in question?   😉


I don't know milnewsbay

Everyone in my "bubble" knows I can't stand the PM but this is now and not when I was in uniform.

Besides if I tell a "dirty" joke and a female peer overhears it, not my problem.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> Let me get this straight
> 
> (True story) My ex-girlfriend overheard a female colleague of mine stating slanderous thoughts about me with other military members present but that doesn't count, right Jarnhamar?
> 
> ...


Depends what you mean by whether it counts or not. There's a big chance the rules have changed since this happened to you, I'm talking about current stuff.

If that happened today could your ex-girlfriend put in a harassment complaint against your female colleague because of what she said about you? Yes she could submit it, but it wouldn't meet the criteria as harassment since the comments were about you and not her. So the CO could dismiss it. Shes not being harassed.

Could _*you*_ submit a harassment complaint against your female coworker because of? Yes you could, and (in my opinion) it would meet all of the criteria for harassment so it could go forward and be investigated.

Under the current rules a WO can't dismiss an official harassment complaint.

Just to add I think this newer system is more robust and better than in past. I remember the days when someone who was pissed off would accuse everyone who looked at them of harassment and the CAF would investigate regardless of how stupid or frivolous the accusations were. Having a criteria, again just guessing, makes it more fair.


shawn5o said:


> Besides if I tell a "dirty" joke and a female peer overhears it, not my problem.


Are you talking about a DND work place?


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## shawn5o (6 Jan 2021)

"Are you talking about a DND work place?"

No Jarnhamar

But it evolved to the MP unit and then I took "action" that proved a MCpl's slander is more trustworthy than a cpl


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> Besides if I tell a "dirty" joke and a female peer overhears it, not my problem.


It is absolutely your problem.  At work, there is no place for such jokes.  Need to entertain yourself?  Change jokes.  That kind of behaviour is precisely why we have issues retaining minorities.


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## YZT580 (6 Jan 2021)

interesting though that a comedian can tell those jokes in a theatre but if you repeat it with the wrong folks listening you are in a whole lot of hurt


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> interesting though that a comedian can tell those jokes in a theatre but if you repeat it with the wrong folks listening you are in a whole lot of hurt


People willingly attend a comedy show with the expectation of hearing such jokes.  Not so much in a work environment.


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## PMedMoe (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> Content Removed by DS.


Nice personal attack. I'm done with you.


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## daftandbarmy (6 Jan 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> It is absolutely your problem.  At work, there is no place for such jokes.  Need to entertain yourself?  Change jokes.  That kind of behaviour is precisely why we have issues retaining minorities.


Or, you know, other normal people.


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## Navy_Pete (6 Jan 2021)

YZT580 said:


> interesting though that a comedian can tell those jokes in a theatre but if you repeat it with the wrong folks listening you are in a whole lot of hurt


Oh jeez, thought the brass was going to shut off his mike at one we had about five years ago at the xmas happy tour. I think we had just finished our last round of OP Honour briefings and we were all on a 2 beer limit off duty, so it was just really really uncomfortable for everyone. He was pretty hammered too so it was just awkward, but they switched over to the music act pretty quick. Mentally pictured the giant gong show cane coming out to yank him off to the side.

Meeting Guy Lafleur and Donovan Bailey was pretty cool, but really hard to do a comedy act in any kind of professional workplace setting, let alone for an organization that had spent the whole year being dragged for having a highly sexualized culture, so they could probably just can that bit. The music was pretty good though.


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## SupersonicMax (6 Jan 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or, you know, other normal people.


Discriminating comments aimed at other people make "normal" people leave? 

Are you saying that minorities are not "normal?"


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## dapaterson (6 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> Besides if I tell a "dirty" joke and a female peer overhears it, not my problem.



On the plus side, HR's gonna get lots of overtime in dealing with you.


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## dapaterson (6 Jan 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Discriminating comments aimed at other people make "normal" people leave?
> 
> Are you saying that minorities are not "normal?"


I believe he's saying that that sort of toxic work environment is poison and drives out everyone.


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## YZT580 (6 Jan 2021)

Discriminating comments say far more about the person speaking than the subject matter of the comment.  My concern vis-a-vis discrimination is with a person's actions towards another that is any other.  Bad reports, deliberate sabotage, continuous assignment of s**t jobs.  Those actions drive people away.  But rather than report comments it is far better for the audience to turn their backs on the speaker and walk away or, to directly address the speaker as a group and inform them that their words are not acceptable.  The courts should be able to devote their time to discriminating actions and leave society to deal with the tongue.


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## Mediman14 (7 Jan 2021)

dapaterson said:


> I believe he's saying that that sort of toxic work environment is poison and drives out everyone.


Most CAF MBRs can't escape a toxic work environment that easily!


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## HiTechComms (7 Jan 2021)

Well I am still a civi but from my civi interactions and people I know. This is the level of PC culture I currently have to deal with.
Here is some rules I follow and these have been around for years, the bigger the company the worse it gets. I have worked at IBM, Flour Daniels, Enbridge, Capital Power, Unisys etc..

1. Do not use pronouns in correspondence. Everyone is a "User" or an "Individual"
2. Always use "We"  when using personal identifier in correspondence or conversations
3. Never ever have the opposite "sex" in a closed office situation. If you need to have a conversation on a one on one have HR in the room.
4. Always defer to HR if job performance is questioned of an employee
5. If it wasn't in an Email it wasn't said. Document everything. <--- *This is my daily life*
6. Follow up all meetings with an Email of Notes.
7. Canada is a single consent state for recordings, so record EVERYTHING.
8. Never get into an elevator with only one "sex" persons being in the elevator
9. Never show any tattoos. All my ink is hidden.
10. Never wear any perfume/cologne
11. Do not use fabric softeners or detergents with scent
12. Never engage in small talk with customer underlings outside of "how is the weather"
13. Apologize for everything before any work starts
14. Never speak on some ones behalf with out proof (usually emails)
15. Show up to "team" exercises but never ever opt in to go for after hour or personal stuff with coworkers
16. Never talk about family or personal business. If you need to take time off just "Personal business"
17. Ask for received receipts and read receipts on emails.
18. Never acknowledge received receipts and read receipts on emails.
20. Use ambiguous and convoluted language in sensitive emails, IE: Cloud, Opportunity, Challenge, Outstanding, etc..
21. Pretend to be dumb or deaf when asked questions that are loaded.
22. Don't voice any opinion especially religious or political in clients or work environment
23. Have an excuse for avoiding personal interaction outside of work. Gym, Volunteering, school.. I am in perpetual schooling.
24. Dress appropriately, look professional at all times.
25. When pressed for answers that may pertain to uncomfortable questions (political, personal, religious) Identify as a minority.. I am a perpetual immigrant and an outsider. Due to my skin color I avoid calling my self "Canadian" then say you have no real opinion on the matter
26. Look busy even if you are pretending because all your work is done. Do not give a reason for a supervisor, client, coworkers to bad mouth you.
27. Never put your hands in your pockets
28. Book everything in your Calendar
29. Know how to change the subject quickly
30. Never Ever engage in a Personal relationship with a coworker, customer, client. *DON'T EAT WHERE YOU DEFECATE!
31. HAVE NO SOCIAL MEDIA Under your real identity!*

I have been very successful in my personal career, still employed with no end in sight of work.
I have certain life rules and my main one is: "Hate everyone equally unless they give you a reason to love them"

I know this all sounds very cynical but a large chunk of my life has been spent outside of Canada and a long time ago I came to the realization that noone gives a crap about you and if you disapear the world will go on just fine with out you. So do your job and go home and enjoy your life your way.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> This is the level of PC culture I currently have to deal with.
> 3. Never ever have the opposite "sex" in a closed office situation. If you need to have a conversation on a one on one have HR in the room.


I've always found this discrimitory. What happens if I'm a gay male? Can I have women but not men alone in the office?


HiTechComms said:


> 8. Never get into an elevator with only one "sex" persons being in the elevator


Same as above.


HiTechComms said:


> 13. Apologize for everything before any work starts



I don't evny your job at all.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I've always found this discrimitory. What happens if I'm a gay male? Can I have women but not men alone in the office?
> 
> Same as above.
> 
> ...


It's mainly about avoiding accusations of sexual assault, which tend to always go against the employer/ boss.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Jan 2021)

When I worked with cadets one of their rules was no male staff alone in vehicles with female cadets. I understood that was to protect the staff as much as the kids, but I still found it weird it didn't carry over to a male staff in the vehicle with a male cadet (scout leaders? priests?).

It may still end up shooting me in the foot but as an adult dealing with another adult I refuse to have a witness in when I'm speaking with someone giving them shit or talking about bad performance. I'll straight up suggest they pull their phone out and record the conversation, and automatically behave like everything I say is being recorded.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Jan 2021)

I was asked a couple of times to mentor cadets. I politely declined. One accusation of sexual misconduct, even when proven false, will not be believed by all. It will follow and tarnish you for life. Not to mention the public scrutiny, investigations, lawyers and courts with their related costs, monetary  and otherwise.


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## Weinie (7 Jan 2021)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I was asked a couple of times to mentor cadets. I politely declined. One accusation of sexual misconduct, even when proven false, will not be believed by all. It will follow and tarnish you for life. Not to mention the public scrutiny, investigations, lawyers and courts with their related costs, monetary  and otherwise.


I understand your reluctance . And that in of itself is a sad commentary and legacy for cadets. We have had literally thousands of decent folks  over decades volunteer their time to produce outstanding young men and women in the Cadet movement. Shame that it has come to this.


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## HiTechComms (7 Jan 2021)

There is a reason "sex" is in quotes. If "gender" is an identity so can "sex". Nothing is off limits to interpretation these days.

I have standing Open door policy. Not as in my door is always open as I never close my door when some one is in my office.
At least with this "pandemic" situation the office is now closed and I work from home. I don't have to deal with this crap at all. 
Its worse now cause I've seen employees repramanted in front of all coworkers cause manager or HR accidentally called the group instead of the person.

I honestly don't care any more, I can work a minimum wage and still do ok for myself.


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## mariomike (7 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Well I am still a civi but from my civi interactions and people I know.
> Here is some rules I follow and these have been around for years, the bigger the company the worse it gets. I have worked at IBM, Flour Daniels, Enbridge, Capital Power, Unisys etc..
> 
> 3. Never ever have the opposite "sex" in a closed office situation. If you need to have a conversation on a one on one have HR in the room.
> ...


Congratulations on being very successful in your personal career.

I'm no longer in the PRes, and I've never worked in an office. But, I have worked with a female partner. That meant sleeping ( on separate couches with blankets and pillows ) in the same room, and sharing the same sink, toilet and shower ( not at the same time, of course ) on 12-hour night shifts. Just the two of us. No other crew. No supervisor. We got alone fine. Better than fine, you might say. Because she's your partner. And partners trust each other.


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## YZT580 (7 Jan 2021)

To all of which he replied: 'what a tragic commentary.  And there is no visible solution because people simply don't trust or respect.  Treat every one with suspicion, never be alone with anyone, and never give someone who is not family a hug when they need it.  Sure glad that I am older, retired, and succeeded in working my entire career before all this crap became important.'


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## HiTechComms (8 Jan 2021)

The world is what it is. I cannot change it. The Private sector is just as bad the public sector and in many cases worse. Grass is rarely greener on the other side. Simple fact is that we are all humandoings and not humanbeings. Once the system is done with you it will discard you and the only way to survive is to simply play the game better then everyone else until you don't need to play the game at all. Political correctness is here to stay and is not going away.


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## Mediman14 (8 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Well I am still a civi but from my civi interactions and people I know. This is the level of PC culture I currently have to deal with.
> Here is some rules I follow and these have been around for years, the bigger the company the worse it gets. I have worked at IBM, Flour Daniels, Enbridge, Capital Power, Unisys etc..
> 
> 1. Do not use pronouns in correspondence. Everyone is a "User" or an "Individual"
> ...


That seems like a lot of things to be conscious of. That’s the point of all this conversations. When I served, I learn to always have a witness to any conversation with any subordinate. It is amazing how much it gets twisted. Second, it’s a Shame that we have to record conversations Because can’t trust the other person. Towards my last year or two serving, I found myself having to record all conversations with any supervisor. I could not trust them and history had shown that. In my last unit ( Medical Unit) patients was recording any medical appointments they had.


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## mariomike (8 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> The world is what it is. I cannot change it.


One thing you hear in the Army, "You'll get used to it."


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## Scott (8 Jan 2021)

shawn5o said:


> Besides if I tell a "dirty" joke and a female peer overhears it, not my problem.



Let me know how that "not my problem" thing goes. I happen to know that you are dead wrong. And perhaps soon enough the "not my problem" crowd will be introduced to administrative monetary penalties to assist them in learning this.

Simply stated: *you* are accountable for *your* choice of wording - whatever it is. You always have been, actually, it's just that people are not tolerating the bullshit any longer.


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## lenaitch (9 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Well I am still a civi but from my civi interactions and people I know. This is the level of PC culture I currently have to deal with.
> Here is some rules I follow and these have been around for years, the bigger the company the worse it gets. I have worked at IBM, Flour Daniels, Enbridge, Capital Power, Unisys etc..
> 
> 1. Do not use pronouns in correspondence. Everyone is a "User" or an "Individual"
> ...



Gosh.  I guess the world has changed.  During my time as a road warrior, I could never have patrolled with, trained or supervised a member of the opposite persuasion.  It would have been hard to involve HR in all discussions when they are 20 hours away.  During my time in a large 4-storey building with approx. 750 workers, I could barely have moved.  I suppose phones that record have made things a little easier - I spent much time making copious notes of things that needed recording.

In 31 years, perhaps I was lucky that I was directly subordinate to a grand total of two superiors who were actually bad; several that were less than effective and a few that I just plain didn't like but that, in and of itself, didn't make them bad.  Some co-workers, peers, subordinates and superiors didn't like me.  So be it. 

I fully understood that I was immensely replaceable.  I never felt that the rest of humanity had an agenda.  Perhaps it does now.  Sad.


----------



## GR66 (9 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Well I am still a civi but from my civi interactions and people I know. This is the level of PC culture I currently have to deal with.
> Here is some rules I follow and these have been around for years, the bigger the company the worse it gets. I have worked at IBM, Flour Daniels, Enbridge, Capital Power, Unisys etc..
> 
> 1. Do not use pronouns in correspondence. Everyone is a "User" or an "Individual"
> ...


I guess it may be a generational thing, but I think it would be exhausting to live my life like that.  I'm fortunate I guess that I've never felt that I've had to feel so guarded in my professional career.  I'm naturally a fairly reserved person, so I guess I don't expose my self to much "risk" at work, but that being said I don't make any effort to hide who I am or how I think/feel.  

I spend more time at work than anywhere else so I can't imagine not feeling I can "be myself" for the majority of my life.  Perhaps I've just been fortunate in not facing someone who's wanted to take advantage and put me in a bind, but I've always just tried to work with my peers and subordinates to get the job done.  While I'm certainly not "friends" with everyone I work with (and there have definitely been some that I haven't respected or liked), I've never viewed/treated my co-workers as threats.

That's just me though.  Certainly not going to judge others for making the choices that they feel are right for them.  If it works for you and you're happy then that's what counts.


----------



## mariomike (9 Jan 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Gosh.  I guess the world has changed.  During my time as a road warrior, I could never have patrolled with, trained or supervised a member of the opposite persuasion.


It has changed. There were no women on our department for my first ten years. Even the dispatchers were all men. I distinctly remember older men who refused to be partnered with women.

Seems sort of funny, in a way, now looking back. But, at the time, not all the wives were on-board with the idea.

( I didn't do the hiring. Not trying to justify it. That's just the way it was. )

Firemen's Wives Fight For Chauvinism on Job​SAN DIEGO, July 27—The San Diego Civil Service Commission and the Fire Department have been kept busy this month trying to douse the anger of nearly 300 firemens’ wives who are determined to preserve the fire station as one of the last citadels of male chauvinism.

Banded together as Concerned Wives of Firemen, the irate women threaten to go to court in an effort to block a decision to enlist 35 female firefighters who would share the heretofore all‐male sleeping quarters in San Diego's fire stations.

While volunteer fire departments and some smalltown departments have hired women firefighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs said it believed the action here would make San Diego the nation's first major city to hire women on a wide scale as paid firefighters.

At one stormy meeting with city officials, Marguerite B. Beaton, wife of. a 15‐year veteran of the department, demanded: “How ,am I going to explain to my six children why their daddy goes to work and sleeps next to another woman? I'm the only woman who has a right to shower with my husband.”

“Our families and homes will be threatened if they bring women into the firehouses where they will share dormitories and bathing facilities with the men during their 24‐hour duty shifts,” she insisted.

For full story,
Firemen's Wives Fight For Chauvinism on Job - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Jan 2021)

You had exactly the same reaction from sailors wives in Canada, the UK and the USA when "women-at-sea" was introduced.

We made it work within the confines of a warship ... Grow up women of San Diego.


----------



## mariomike (9 Jan 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Grow up women of San Diego.


Unfortunately, progress has been slow in some cities,
09/07/2011 02:51 pm ET  *Updated* Dec 06, 2017

*How many women belonged to the New York City Fire Department on 9/11?*
There was a very small number.  [There were] 11,000 or so [firefighters in the FDNY], and there were approximately 25 [female] firefighters.  Our numbers were very tiny. When I won my lawsuit and I brought women into the NYFD in 1982, there were 42 of us. Now there are 29.









						Brenda Berkman, Former New York City Fire Department Captain, Talks Women At Ground Zero
					

Brenda Berkman, Former New York City Fire Department Captain, Talks Women At Ground Zero




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## dimsum (9 Jan 2021)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> You had exactly the same reaction from sailors wives in Canada, the UK and the USA when "women-at-sea" was introduced.
> 
> We made it work within the confines of a warship ... Grow up women of San Diego.


You can still find some USN sailor's social media posts against women onboard ship.  A lot of them are, unsurprisingly, retired folks.  

If you are worried that your partner might cheat because they're working and sleeping near other people, then it's _at least partially_ your hangup and a lack of trust in your partner not to cheat.


----------



## HiTechComms (9 Jan 2021)

Isn't the


dimsum said:


> You can still find some USN sailor's social media posts against women onboard ship.  A lot of them are, unsurprisingly, retired folks.
> 
> If you are worried that your partner might cheat because they're working and sleeping near other people, then it's _at least partially_ your hangup and a lack of trust in your partner not to cheat.


Isn't the divorce rate in the Military like 75% and its usually the civi spouse that cheats? 

Worked in the Energy industry and they had a saying in the camps. "If you haven't been divorced yet you soon will be"


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## mariomike (9 Jan 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Isn't the divorce rate in the Military like 75% ( snip )


If you look on some of the  / satire / sites there is a ribbon for that.  I did say SATIRE.


----------



## Mediman14 (9 Jan 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Depends what you mean by whether it counts or not. There's a big chance the rules have changed since this happened to you, I'm talking about current stuff.
> 
> If that happened today could your ex-girlfriend put in a harassment complaint against your female colleague because of what she said about you? Yes she could submit it, but it wouldn't meet the criteria as harassment since the comments were about you and not her. So the CO could dismiss it. Shes not being harassed.
> 
> ...


I have personally seen a MWO flat dismiss an official harassment complaint against a CO. In fact, the MWO response was, "he is the CO, he can say and do what he wants".  I was one of the harassment personnel in the unit. I simply asked who is the contact at HQ .. I was denied several times for a contact at HQ.  Say what you like, this is a MWO who has no testicular fortitude, a spineless leader, just for a promotion, ignoring what was right.


----------



## Mediman14 (9 Jan 2021)

Society is changing no matter what, whether we like it or not, we all have to adapt to it. It almost gets to the point where it is best to stay home! Even when you do that, sometimes the neighbors are thinking you are weird or you are hiding something! If it's not already, it's becoming a crazy world!


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## daftandbarmy (9 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> If you look on some of the  / satire / sites there is a ribbon for that.  I did say SATIRE.


Coincidentally, the word 'ribbon' is in the news alot these days:

Support far and wide for 10-year-old Sask. Indigenous student shamed over ribbon skirt​Isabella Kulak, a member of the Cote First Nation in Saskatchewan, wore her ribbon skirt to school last month when it held a formal day before Christmas break.









						Support far and wide for 10-year-old Sask. Indigenous student shamed over ribbon skirt
					

Isabella Kulak, a member of the Cote First Nation in Saskatchewan, wore her ribbon skirt to school last month when it held a formal day before Christmas break.




					thestarphoenix.com


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## brihard (9 Jan 2021)

I find a lot of this weird. I’ve done well and gotten along just fine so far by not being a scumbag. I work for women in the next two levels of my chain of command; I work alongside several, and women have worked for me including coaching one of my recruits on the road. Never a complaint or a problem; the balance of friendly but professional has never been something I’ve found difficult.

Am I telling the same jokes and stories I would have in high school or as a new guy in the army? No. But some of the things I said and did then were shitty and cringeworthy when I look back now.

I don’t see political correctness run amok... Just an expectation that we treat each other with respect. That’s inherently reasonable. Just because people got away with being crass or disrespectful in the workplace for a long time doesn’t mean the problem is that they can’t anymore.


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## dimsum (9 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> Am I telling the same jokes and stories I would have in high school or as a new guy in the army? No. But some of the things I said and did then were shitty and cringeworthy when I look back now.


Yep, and same here.  

But, as I read before, if you're feeling cringey about stuff you've done in your younger days, that means you've matured.  That's not a bad thing.


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## daftandbarmy (9 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> I find a lot of this weird. I’ve done well and gotten along just fine so far by not being a scumbag. I work for women in the next two levels of my chain of command; I work alongside several, and women have worked for me including coaching one of my recruits on the road. Never a complaint or a problem; the balance of friendly but professional has never been something I’ve found difficult.
> 
> Am I telling the same jokes and stories I would have in high school or as a new guy in the army? No. But some of the things I said and did then were shitty and cringeworthy when I look back now.
> 
> I don’t see political correctness run amok... Just an expectation that we treat each other with respect. That’s inherently reasonable. Just because people got away with being crass or disrespectful in the workplace for a long time doesn’t mean the problem is that they can’t anymore.


I have had three COs who I would describe as misogynist a$$holes. Nothing was ever done about it, of course, sadly even though it was common knowledge. 

More proof that COs don't have alot of the right kind of oversight, much of the time. 

I called one of them on it, once.  It was pretty clear that he thought I was some kind of freak. I'm glad to say that karma caught up with him later.


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## YZT580 (10 Jan 2021)

dimsum said:


> Yep, and same here.
> 
> But, as I read before, if you're feeling cringey about stuff you've done in your younger days, that means you've matured.  That's not a bad thing.


And how many stories in the news feature just such cringey (great word) actions by leaders who did and said really stupid things 20 years ago?  Perhaps a moratorium in the press on anything not criminal after 10 years  might be appropriate.


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## mariomike (10 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> I work for women in the next two levels of my chain of command; I work alongside several, and women have worked for me including coaching one of my recruits on the road.


I don't know if you folks have permanent 40-hour a week partnerships? Ours were. Some lasted for decades. You're cooped up with that person, so, you get to know each other's habits ( good and bad ) pretty well.

I only had one female work partner. So, I'm hardly an expert on the subject. Except to say, it was the happiest time of my career.

I don't mean that the way it might sound. There was none of that. She just had a natural soothing and calming effect.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> I don't know if you folks have permanent 40-hour a week partnerships? Ours were. Some lasted for decades. You're cooped up with that person, so, you get to know each other's habits ( good and bad ) pretty well.


What were your worst habits?


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## brihard (10 Jan 2021)

mariomike said:


> I don't know if you folks have permanent 40-hour a week partnerships? Ours were. Some lasted for decades. You're cooped up with that person, so, you get to know each other's habits ( good and bad ) pretty well.
> 
> I only had one female work partner. So, I'm hardly an expert on the subject. Except to say, it was the happiest time of my career.
> 
> I don't mean that the way it might sound. There was none of that. She just had a natural soothing and calming effect.


God no. Two member cars? I wish. No, my rookie was in the car with me for her first two months, but that’s it.


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## mariomike (10 Jan 2021)

brihard said:


> God no. Two member cars? I wish. No, my rookie was in the car with me for her first two months, but that’s it.


It takes a special courage to be a police officer in any environment. My dear uncle served on the old Metro force. But, at least here, they ride in pairs, and know backup is never far away. 

( I think during certain hours, one per car is ok. It's in their agreement. But, during Covid, I read they may make a temporary return to one per car, for health reasons. )


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## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jan 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I have had three COs who I would describe as misogynist a$$holes. Nothing was ever done about it, of course, sadly even though it was common knowledge.
> 
> More proof that COs don't have alot of the right kind of oversight, much of the time.
> 
> I called one of them on it, once.  It was pretty clear that he thought I was some kind of freak. I'm glad to say that karma caught up with him later.


I don't actually think the problem is political correctness per se, I think it's more that so many people in Western Society are passive-aggressive, on all sides.

Playing the victim
Avoiding direct communication
Evading problems
Feigning compliance
Obstructionism

Canadians and Americans are both really good at all of the above.


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## YZT580 (10 Jan 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't actually think the problem is political correctness per se, I think it's more that so many people in Western Society are passive-aggressive, on all sides.
> 
> Playing the victim
> Avoiding direct communication
> ...


all those plus refusing to take responsibility for their own actions: blaming something or someone else for their own failures


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## AKa (10 Jan 2021)

As well, I don't think the system has devised a way to deal with the perpetually offended or the malicious.  There are complaintants who cannot be mollified by anything less than harsh and public punishment of those who have offended them.  Sometimes there is a mental health aspect to it, but nevertheless, these (luckily fairly rare) individuals create massive workloads and often poison workplaces.  Reasonable, empathic people hear their tales of misuse and provide sympathy and support.  And the normal, well-meaning coworkers and supervisors who have to respond to the accusations of harassment and abuse of power are left tainted and frustrated.

It leaves people very nervous about addressing personnel issues with any controverial implications.  You don't actually have to do anything wrong to end up on the wrong side of a harassment complaint.  And even eventual vindication may not address the negative affects on your reputation and career.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Jan 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't actually think the problem is political correctness per se, I think it's more that so many people in Western Society are passive-aggressive, on all sides.
> 
> Playing the victim
> Avoiding direct communication
> ...


Three COs who can get away with obviously anti-female policies, unconstrained by the Bde Comd, suggest that something else might be going on too....


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## questions1234 (1 Feb 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't actually think the problem is political correctness per se, I think it's more that so many people in Western Society are passive-aggressive, on all sides.
> 
> Playing the victim
> Avoiding direct communication
> ...


If anything we need more political correctness. There is too much Homophobia present in the Military and people buy too much into an outdated concept of masculinity, when we know now from the science that gender is fluid and all gender roles are simply constructs of problematic western society (A systematically racist society). 

Soldier in the New Canadian army need to be trained and informed of their misconceptions. Inherit biases, toxic masculinity etc. this is common knowledge at this point and many other institutions, government and other wise are already installing programs and training courses to make this happen. 

Political Correctness is a politically motivated label, used in an attempt to hinder natural progress towards a tolerant society. Peoples backlash towards this probably stems from a fearful ego, white fragility or internalized trauma, that prevents mainly men from opening up and allowing themselves to show emotion and their natural feminine side. 

Hope fully we get much more programs and restrictions/punishments put in place to help guide the Canadian military on the right path.


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## LittleBlackDevil (1 Feb 2021)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I don't actually think the problem is political correctness per se, I think it's more that so many people in Western Society are passive-aggressive, on all sides.
> 
> Playing the victim
> Avoiding direct communication
> ...



I think you make a very good point. This is definitely a Canadian and American thing. My wife is Polish, and she has definitely noticed this but also sometimes struggles with relationships because Polish culture is _very_ direct and people don't like that she engages in direct communication rather than avoiding it, attacks problems head-on rather than ignoring them, etc.


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## Eaglelord17 (2 Feb 2021)

questions1234 said:


> If anything we need more political correctness. There is too much Homophobia present in the Military and people buy too much into an outdated concept of masculinity, when we know now from the science that gender is fluid and all gender roles are simply constructs of problematic western society (A systematically racist society).
> 
> Soldier in the New Canadian army need to be trained and informed of their misconceptions. Inherit biases, toxic masculinity etc. this is common knowledge at this point and many other institutions, government and other wise are already installing programs and training courses to make this happen.
> 
> ...


Your 'science' is a theory nothing more or less, hence why it is called gender theory not gender science. The fact that some people don't agree with that theory isn't wrong, and it also isn't right, it can't be proven either way, hence the theory designation. 

I love how you declare the whole of Western society problematic and racist, when in reality it is the only societies that have ever existed which are striving to get rid of racism, create equality (well not so much anymore, now we are striving for some pigs are more equal than others), and in general tolerate individuals choices. 

Your 'natural progression to wards a tolerant society' is much the opposite. People are less tolerant now then they ever have been. People make one little mistake and you have the mobs out for blood. Makes 1984 seem not like a warning but a how to guide.

The CAF and government in general shouldn't be attempting to control what people think or believe, and I would argue it is actually illegal under the Charter as you have the right to Freedom of Thought, Opinion, and Expression. Provided people aren't attacking people for their opinions at work, that is the extent that they should be going to. Treat everyone the same and that is all that should be necessary. 

And for the record, I personally don't really give two cents about what others do in their personal lives as long as it doesn't effect me, Classical Liberalism at its finest. But the garbage like this where one group of people believe they have the moral right and superiority to force their opinions down everyone else's throat and if people don't go along censure and punish them is wrong. In the West the Church used to perform this role in society, now we have these 'progressive' groups using the exact same tactics.


----------



## mariomike (2 Feb 2021)

questions1234 said:


> Soldier in the New Canadian army need to be trained and informed of their misconceptions. Inherit biases, toxic masculinity etc.


For "soldiers in the New Canadian army". After my time, thankfully.



> this is common knowledge at this point and many other institutions, government and other wise are already installing programs and training courses to make this happen.



The training we had about our "misconceptions, inherent biases, toxic masculinity etc." took 30 seconds,  "You come to us from _a_ _society_ _with_ _many_ prejudices. We won't try to change your beliefs. But, if you treat _a_nyone _with_ disrespect, we will change your employment."


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## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2021)

questions1234 said:


> There is too much Homophobia present in the Military


What are you basing this observation on?


You showed your hand way too quick, you gotta learn patience if you want your Sea lion badge.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Feb 2021)

mariomike said:


> I don't know if you folks have permanent 40-hour a week partnerships? Ours were. Some lasted for decades. You're cooped up with that person, so, you get to know each other's habits ( good and bad ) pretty well.
> 
> I only had one female work partner. So, I'm hardly an expert on the subject. Except to say, it was the happiest time of my career.
> 
> I don't mean that the way it might sound. There was none of that. She just had a natural soothing and calming effect.


I had that, she was my "Work wife" a relationship built on mutual respect and our weaknesses and strength complimented each other, we are still good friends. The way we treated each other also helped us with our clients and tasks which also depended a great deal on relationships and trust. How you treat collogues and subordinates is a indicator to your client/audiences of how you will eventually treat them.


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## HiTechComms (2 Feb 2021)

Act as others in public and keep your thoughts in private. That's one of my Mottos.

I am a proponent of voluntary separation. My spouse and I are both immigrants from completely different cultures. We avoid those that are not like us, or share our values, there is no benefit for either side. If you want to engage with me that's fine but that will require you to civilly engage with me over my fence first. I think if the world did things like the Swiss and had good fences they would make good neighbors.  I respect peoples autonomy and sovereignty of self and I would hope more would do so as well. I do not brow beat anyone with my beliefs and I really don't appreciate when that is not reciprocated.


As to the poster by the name Question1234.. I agree. We need more correctness.
Again I am for Voluntary separation, you go do you in your little corner and I will do me in mine. If you want something from me please file appropriate requisite forms and large sums of money.  Keep in mind if you try and force me to do something I don't want to, I will do what everyone did in my communist homeland and that is "the least possible" with out getting into trouble. This is of course in my private life as I am not in the CAF yet. If I were in CAF I would abide by what is in the "Terms of Service" nothing more and nothing less and my "duty to perform" to all other members in the CAF.

It sounds also as if your an activist more then anything else or a Troll.


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## TCM621 (2 Feb 2021)

questions1234 said:


> If anything we need more political correctness. There is too much Homophobia present in the Military and people buy too much into an outdated concept of masculinity, when we know now from the science that gender is fluid and all gender roles are simply constructs of problematic western society (A systematically racist society).
> 
> Soldier in the New Canadian army need to be trained and informed of their misconceptions. Inherit biases, toxic masculinity etc. this is common knowledge at this point and many other institutions, government and other wise are already installing programs and training courses to make this happen.
> 
> ...


Gender theory does not come from science. As far as science is concerned the correlation between gender and sex is almost perfect. Gender theory comes from the social sciences which are anything but scientific. It has its roots in post modern literary criticism not biology and is based on the post modern knowledge principle which holds objective Truth is unattainable and that there are an infinite number of truths.

In fact most of your rant can be traced back to a bunch of old white French intellectuals who argued every interaction, or discourse, could be boiled down to various power imbalances and that a person's words could be dissected to find hidden meanings. The massive divisiveness of the ideology is a feature  not a bug, because it has as a goal defining people into smaller and smaller groups and them highlight the perceived power imbalances between them.

Canada was founded a philosophy of Liberalism which has led to one of the most tolerant societies in the history of the world. Slavery was still legal in some places until the 1960s and is still condoned in any countries. In many places gay people are thrown off buildings and women have their clitoris cut off and their vagina sewn shut. In many places in the world a protest like the Wetsuweten would have been solved with gun fire and the Russian gate attempt to remove a sitting president would have ended in hangings. These things do not happen here and while we have problems they are far and away some of the best problems in the world to have because they mean we don't have bigger problems.


----------



## HiTechComms (2 Feb 2021)

TCM621 said:


> Gender theory does not come from science. As far as science is concerned the correlation between gender and sex is almost perfect. Gender theory comes from the social sciences which are anything but scientific. It has its roots in post modern literary criticism not biology and is based on the post modern knowledge principle which holds objective Truth is unattainable and that there are an infinite number of truths.
> 
> In fact most of your rant can be traced back to a bunch of old white French intellectuals who argued every interaction, or discourse, could be boiled down to various power imbalances and that a person's words could be dissected to find hidden meanings. The massive divisiveness of the ideology is a feature  not a bug, because it has as a goal defining people into smaller and smaller groups and them highlight the perceived power imbalances between them.
> 
> Canada was founded a philosophy of Liberalism which has led to one of the most tolerant societies in the history of the world. Slavery was still legal in some places until the 1960s and is still condoned in any countries. In many places gay people are thrown off buildings and women have their clitoris cut off and their vagina sewn shut. In many places in the world a protest like the Wetsuweten would have been solved with gun fire and the Russian gate attempt to remove a sitting president would have ended in hangings. These things do not happen here and while we have problems they are far and away some of the best problems in the world to have because they mean we don't have bigger problems.


Gender Identity was all based on the work of Dr. John Money and David Reimer and his brother. It has been proclaimed that Gender theory is true based on the Dr. Money studies. Its unfortunate that David Reimer that was "reassigned" sex via the construct theory committed suicide and his brother had also committed suicide. Statistically "gender construct" proponents fail at statistics because those prior to re-assignment surgery have a very high suicide rate and post transition surgery they are even higher. So I guess if you define 42% suicides as a marker of "gender construct" theory as a success then your Warren Buffet of Gender constructionist market.

All done in Canada as well. Then again Canada has a long standing history and love affair of inter-sectional experiments. That must be the "French" influence since post modernism is the brain child of geniuses that came out of France. France is to post modernism theories as Frankfurt School is to Economics and Politics theories.

Reservations
Residential Schools
Concentration Camps during WW1 for Slavic "enemy combatants". (Creation of Banff etc..)
Racial Segregation of Japanese and internment camps
Racial segregation of Chinese and exclusionary laws
We all know how these "societal constructed" experiments ended.

/Sarcasm Off


----------



## Weinie (2 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> *Gender Identity was all based on the work of Dr. John Money and David Reimer and his brother. It has been proclaimed that Gender theory is true based on the Dr. Money studies. Its unfortunate that David Reimer that was "reassigned" sex via the construct theory committed suicide and his brother had also committed suicide. Statistically "gender construct" proponents fail at statistics because those prior to re-assignment surgery have a very high suicide rate and post transition surgery they are even higher. So I guess if you define 42% suicides as a marker of "gender construct" theory as a success then your Warren Buffet of Gender constructionist market.*
> 
> All done in Canada as well. Then again Canada has a long standing history and love affair of inter-sectional experiments. That must be the "French" influence since post modernism is the brain child of geniuses that came out of France. France is to post modernism theories as Frankfurt School is to Economics and Politics theories.
> 
> ...


OK, are we allowing trolls to take over in here?

A simple google will result in the following

*"John William Money* (8 July 1921 – 7 July 2006) was a New Zealand psychologist, sexologist and author known for his research into sexual identity and biology of gender and his *allegedly predatory behavior towards vulnerable patients.* He was one of the first researchers to publish theories on the influence of societal constructs of _gender_ on individual formation of gender identity. Money introduced the terms _gender identity_, _gender role_ and _sexual orientation_ and popularised the term _paraphilia_. He spent a considerable amount of his career in America.

*Recent academic studies have criticized Money's work in many respects, particularly in regard to his involvement with the involuntary sex-reassignment of the child David Reimer, his forcing this child and his brother to simulate sex acts which Money photographed* and the adult suicides of both brothers."

question1234's post is not even close to being constructive.

_If anything we need more political correctness. There is too much Homophobia present in the Military and people buy too much into an outdated concept of masculinity, when we know now from the science that gender is fluid and all gender roles are simply constructs of problematic western society (A systematically racist society).

Soldier in the New Canadian army need to be trained and informed of their misconceptions. Inherit biases, toxic masculinity etc. this is common knowledge at this point and many other institutions, government and other wise are already installing programs and training courses to make this happen.

Political Correctness is a politically motivated label, used in an attempt to hinder natural progress towards a tolerant society. Peoples backlash towards this probably stems from a fearful ego, white fragility or internalized trauma, that prevents mainly men from opening up and allowing themselves to show emotion and their natural feminine side.

Hope fully we get much more programs and restrictions/punishments put in place to help guide the Canadian military on the right path._


Find the dog-whistles in that diatribe.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Feb 2021)

Maybe you need to open up and show your natural feminine side. Flush all that toxic masculinity 😊

Speaking of posts that sound like two people in one, I sure miss DonaldH.


----------



## HiTechComms (2 Feb 2021)

Weinie said:


> OK, are we allowing trolls to take over in here?
> 
> A simple google will result in the following
> 
> ...


I am not sure if your comments are aimed at me. As my point was to point out and paint historical context of where Gender Identity actually came from.  At least you googled the insanity that Dr. John Money studies were. My entire point was to spark curiosity and nothing more.

You know the whole the Asylum is being run by the lunatics idiom. There is also very good reason why I used "/sarcasm off" at the end of my post.

"There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada. Those qualities are what makes us the first post national state" - Justin Trudeau 2015


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## CBH99 (2 Feb 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe you need to open up and show your natural feminine side. Flush all that toxic masculinity 😊
> 
> Speaking of posts that sound like two people in one, I sure miss DonaldH.


You shut your mouth right now Jarn!


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## daftandbarmy (2 Feb 2021)

CBH99 said:


> You shut your mouth right now Jarn!


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## SupersonicMax (3 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Act as others in public and keep your thoughts in private. That's one of my Mottos.
> 
> I am a proponent of voluntary separation. My spouse and I are both immigrants from completely different cultures. We avoid those that are not like us, or share our values, there is no benefit for either side.


I entirely disagree.  This is what drives wedges between different social groups. Engaging with people from different background allows you to be exposed to different points of view and give you a chance to diversify your thoughts.  If all you are exposed to is an echo chamber, it just reinforces your beliefs and can lead to extremism.  Strive to understand how other people feel and you’ll see that most people in the world are actually nice people.


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## mariomike (3 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Strive to understand how other people feel and you’ll see that most people in the world are actually nice people.


I think the experts call it empathy.


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## YZT580 (3 Feb 2021)

Which doesn't mean that you must agree with them!  Accept them as they are, yes.


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## mariomike (3 Feb 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Which doesn't mean that you must agree with them!  Accept them as they are, yes.


I've found listening to what they have to say and replying "I hear you."  usually works pretty well. Without actually agreeing with them.

Or, just say, "Yes Dear."

Obviously, if our views are different, hers is correct. We have a perfect understanding. I don't try to run her life, and I don't try to run mine.


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## LittleBlackDevil (3 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I entirely disagree.  This is what drives wedges between different social groups. Engaging with people from different background allows you to be exposed to different points of view and give you a chance to diversify your thoughts.  If all you are exposed to is an echo chamber, it just reinforces your beliefs and can lead to extremism.  Strive to understand how other people feel and you’ll see that most people in the world are actually nice people.



I agree with this. I would just add that this seems to be much easier to do in person.

In my "travels" as a criminal defence attorney I've had occasion to represent and therefore get to know people from very many different backgrounds. Most people would consider many of my beliefs "extremely left wing" but I have had very good relationships with all people because strongly disagreeing with their views doesn't mean I can't (or shouldn't) exercise empathy and respect.

"Treat others the way you wish to be treated" seems to be a pretty decent rule/motto.


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## HiTechComms (3 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I entirely disagree.  This is what drives wedges between different social groups. Engaging with people from different background allows you to be exposed to different points of view and give you a chance to diversify your thoughts.  If all you are exposed to is an echo chamber, it just reinforces your beliefs and can lead to extremism.  Strive to understand how other people feel and you’ll see that most people in the world are actually nice people.


The ironic thing is that I learned this behaviour in Canada. Canadians do not engage with any one. Most people don't even know their neighbors. Why should I strive to accommodate or even understand when the other side doesn't do so them selves. 
The real ironic part is that all this talk of echo chambers, public sector workers, and military employed from my observation and experiences are the worst ones to suffer from this. 

Again you want to engage with me then do so in a civil manner.  As for people being nice maybe in your experience but as some one that has lived outside of Canada for a large portion of their life and immigrated here I can tell you that the world is not peaches and cream. We are just all bunch of hairless amoral apes with our own agendas and narratives.  People are nice, that is a very privileged Canadian thing to say and what I find incredible ironic is that some one in the military or former military would ever say that. If people were nice we wouldn't need a military.


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## SupersonicMax (3 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> The ironic thing is that I learned this behaviour in Canada. Canadians do not engage with any one. Most people don't even know their neighbors. Why should I strive to accommodate or even understand when the other side doesn't do so them selves [sic].


So, you are content with the status quo?  



HiTechComms said:


> As for people being nice maybe in your experience but as some one [sic] that has lived outside of Canada for a large portion of their life and immigrated here I can tell you that the world is not peaches and cream. We are just all bunch of hairless amoral apes with our own agendas and narratives.  People are nice, that is a very privileged Canadian thing to say and what I find incredible ironic is that some one in the military or former military would ever say that. If people were nice we wouldn't need a military.


I have travelled all around the world, including interacting with so-called real people from all walks of life.  Yes, there are bad apples that will try to take advantage of you.  For the most part, however, most people were willing to share the little they had for nothing in return.

When someone looks at me, I (before COVID... It is hard with masks now) smile at them. When I am getting a coffee, I sometimes pay for the car behind me. When I sit next to someone in a bus, I'll say hi. I understand most people have it harder than I do in life.  A little positivity sometimes goes a long way in someone's day. You do what you want. But I learned several years ago that having a positive mental attitude goes a long way for your own mental health and those around you.


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## Journeyman (3 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Canadians do not engage with any one. Most people don't even know their neighbors.


If the only colours on your palate are black and white, you may as well use a broad brush.


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## LittleBlackDevil (3 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> The ironic thing is that I learned this behaviour in Canada. Canadians do not engage with any one. Most people don't even know their neighbors. Why should I strive to accommodate or even understand when the other side doesn't do so them selves.



This is all very true. I don't think Supersonicmax suggested that Canadians (in general) do what he said is a good approach; I certainly didn't intend to suggest that. I would only say that I think that if people engaged in a respectful and empathetic way, this would be a good thing.

The things you point out with respect to Canadians not engaging and not even knowing their neighbours I believe are key pieces to the polarization of society, cancel culture (easier to cancel people you didn't know in the first place) and the very easily offended aspects. And I believe that social media/the internet exacerbates all of this and makes it even easier for people to not engage (although certainly COVID lockdowns have played their role in gravely aggravating this problem in Canadian society).



HiTechComms said:


> The real ironic part is that all this talk of echo chambers, public sector workers, and military employed from my observation and experiences are the worst ones to suffer from this.



Again, agreed that this often appears to be the case. 



HiTechComms said:


> Again you want to engage with me then do so in a civil manner.  As for people being nice maybe in your experience but as some one that has lived outside of Canada for a large portion of their life and immigrated here I can tell you that the world is not peaches and cream. We are just all bunch of hairless amoral apes with our own agendas and narratives.  People are nice, that is a very privileged Canadian thing to say and what I find incredible ironic is that some one in the military or former military would ever say that. If people were nice we wouldn't need a military.



I am trying to respond to this briefly ... humans are absolutely capable of doing very evil things. This capability is in all people. It's true that Canada has been privileged to enjoy peace and relative harmony unprecedented in human history. That said, I think that there is also truth to the comment that most people -- if you actually speak to them and treat them with respect, they are basically "nice" or decent. I would go out on a limb and say that the majority of people don't commit brutal acts with an intention to be evil -- they think they are doing good/have been convinced by others that what they are doing is good and just. While the world will never be all "peaches and cream" it could be better a better place if there were more attempt to engage and understand.

I know that sounds a little idealistic and "strawberry fields forever". It probably applies more on a small-scale level within our neighbourhoods and communities rather than globally. Global peace and harmony is never possible.


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## mariomike (3 Feb 2021)

HiTechComms said:


> Most people don't even know their neighbors.


Might depend, to a certain extent, on the geography of your neighborhood. Ours has water as three of its natural boundaries. That's one way to get to know your neighbors.


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## HiTechComms (3 Feb 2021)

Just because some one agrees with me it doesn't mean they are a good person and just because they disagree with me they are automatically a bad person.

People will be people the world is shades of gray and not black and white. Everyone on this planet has their own personal views and opinions and everyone is entitled to them. I am all about civil discourse, but that doesn't mean I am obliged to seek it. I traveled the world, volunteered, engaged with many types of people.  I learned not to try and influence people or try to convince them. I also don't make moral argument either as morality is just like beauty: its in the eye of the beholder. 
The problem with today's society there are far to many moral tyrants and busybodies running around brow beating and dehumanizing people. I picked this up while being involved in elections (provincial and federal) The more this occurs the more people will disengage from society as a whole and form tribes. I am just as guilty of this as everyone else is, fighting all the time is just tiring. I rather just be a good neighbour with a 10 foot high fence.


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