# Army lessons Learned/AAR Improve How?



## silentbutdeadly (23 Jul 2005)

Just wanted to start a thread on how we can improve our Lesson learned and After Action Reports, so they can get to the combat soldiers on the ground. The americans sent teams with the deployed troops and sent back info very quicky and the info is returned and changes are made in like weeks. Why do the people in Kingston take yrs? Do we need younger Off/Nco's in those pos. instead of 30 yr MWO. Just a question?


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## paracowboy (24 Jul 2005)

silentbutdeadly said:
			
		

> Do we need younger Off/Nco's in those pos. instead of 30 yr MWO. Just a question?


good question. And a good suggestion. But I think we need to look at re-vamping the system entirely. Send teams right to the hot spots, instead of waiting for the reports to filter through official channels. How many times have you learned something from someone who'd been in theatre, but never heard about it from an official source at all?
The Marines have teams in Iraq constantly funneling info back to the training units. We should be doing the same, but going one better and sending teams to not only the theatres we are in, but also places where we are not, but our allies are *coughIraqcough*.


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## a23trucker (24 Jul 2005)

Yes, fresh eyes are always good. But lets not be too hasty about the 30 yr MWO, (as long as their open to change). 
The fresh eyes will see things that people working within the system will never see because they are too close to the elements that make up the SOP's & TTP's;  i.e. the way we do things. 
The "Old hands" embody the corporate knowledge and hopefully understand how we got to where we are. They have seen the things that work and that which doesn't and ideally they can articulate the reasons why. Young officers (and NCM's) do not likely have this knowledge, however they may be invaluable explaining to the new generations of soldiers the info that needs to be communicated in terms/methods that may be better received by the younger soldiers. 

I agree that we need to reform the Lessons Learned system but IMHO we need to include a formal/mandatory understanding of how we got to where we are.

Cheers
AM


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## Gunner98 (24 Jul 2005)

I think the Reverse TAV system as part of TMST is very good.  The only issues seem to be that troops in training don't listen well to those who are currently on the mission.  They have their own ideas and are too excited about the prospects of going to listen to the issues and challenges they will face. Therefore, once they get on the ground they reinvent the wheel rather than accepting the evolutions that preceded their arrival.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Jul 2005)

Which should then put us back to the "30 year CWO" to ensure.....


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Jul 2005)

what i mean by the 30yr MWO/CWO is yes have one to run the place but have say snr nc's/ capt as your teams who have had exp in hot spots. We had one of our MWO goto kingston for a Recce lecture on how to change and inprove and it was actually his idea to get those guys out of there and replaced, He said they are out of touch with what recce does and can do now, there like 5 yrs behind. Thats about the norm for us ground troops, we are so far behind. It must start right away in training and not just TMST. We are so stuck on "this is how we did it in Bosnia" well that mission is long over and outdated. If we want troops comimg back to camp everyday in places like Afghanistan etc we need to move alot quiker with our AAR returns. We have to much of a paper trail. We need people on the ground with the sections on patrol and watching and learning from them not tell them what to do or if there doing it wrong.


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Jul 2005)

i would love to get posted there, at least i would still be in some small way involed with the troops on the ground!


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## MJP (25 Jul 2005)

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> I think the Reverse TAV system as part of TMST is very good.   The only issues seem to be that troops in training don't listen well to those who are currently on the mission.   They have their own ideas and are too excited about the prospects of going to listen to the issues and challenges they will face. Therefore, once they get on the ground they reinvent the wheel rather than accepting the evolutions that preceded their arrival.



I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.  We all to often reinvent the wheel just to put our own little spin onto an idea.  But on top of troops/leaders being overzealous the reverse TAV guys they send back are swamped in the little time they have on the ground.  The times we used them were extremely limited due to them having to bounce around from stand to stand.

I'd like to see a dedicated core of staff for lessons learned that go into the theater of operations, spend time with the troops and update their info.  Within the team they could have their individual SME's on various aspects of the deployed force.  Then when they come to a unit that is doing their pre-training they also take those reverse TAV guys and work them into their presentations.  That way the troops training for deployment get the best of both worlds.  The collective experiences/lessons learned from the dedicated corp of lessons learned soldiersplus the ability to ask questions of someone utilizing the TTPs in an operation.


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jul 2005)

What do our allies do?  Brits, Americans, Aussies.


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## MJP (25 Jul 2005)

The USMC takes teams into Iraq all the time to update their TTPs.  In some cases some of the marines would describe their incidents in a AAR and literally days later those scenarios that they were involved in would be being taught/run by the troops in training.


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## Scoobie Newbie (26 Jul 2005)

Well instead of reiventing the wheel as to how we do things why not take the best from all our experienced allies and apply what we can to our military.


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## MJP (26 Jul 2005)

Well that would be part of the "lessons learned soldiers" jobs, not that we as soldiers should slack off and let them bring us the info.  Not that we do of, most guys I know look for ways to improve how we do things on a fairly regular basis, it's the implementation at times that gets tricky.


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## devil39 (26 Jul 2005)

MJP said:
			
		

> I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.   We all to often reinvent the wheel just to put our own little spin onto an idea.   But on top of troops/leaders being overzealous the reverse TAV guys they send back are swamped in the little time they have on the ground.   The times we used them were extremely limited due to them having to bounce around from stand to stand.
> 
> I'd like to see a dedicated core of staff for lessons learned that go into the theater of operations, spend time with the troops and update their info.   Within the team they could have their individual SME's on various aspects of the deployed force.   Then when they come to a unit that is doing their pre-training they also take those reverse TAV guys and work them into their presentations.   That way the troops training for deployment get the best of both worlds.   The collective experiences/lessons learned from the dedicated corp of lessons learned soldiersplus the ability to ask questions of someone utilizing the TTPs in an operation.



This may happen.

My understanding of the CMTC concept is that they will run the collective TMST during the Task Force confirmation period in Wainwright.  Their intent as I understand it is to be up to date on the latest TTPs, AARs and likely scenarios and work them into the MEL in a theatre specific exercise.


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## MJP (26 Jul 2005)

Which how it was spun to us as well, I guess we'll see how it works when the first few serials go through.


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## devil39 (26 Jul 2005)

MJP said:
			
		

> Which how it was spun to us as well, I guess we'll see how it works when the first few serials go through.



Or the few serials after those first few maybe?      Growing pains and all.


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## MJP (26 Jul 2005)

True, my unit won't be in any of the first few anyway, so we'll get te benefits of the growing pains.


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## KevinB (26 Jul 2005)

I thought The BTE was #1


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## MJP (26 Jul 2005)

Nope according to the fancy poster, the first CMTC serial will be for TF3-06 for 1RCR.


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## KevinB (26 Jul 2005)

Well lucky for them  ;D


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## silentbutdeadly (26 Jul 2005)

But see thats what pisses me off about the whole thing time , marines do it in days we take yrs and plus the marines have been doing this system for yrs and we are just at the initial stages! like come on! This comes back to my point of a younger, fresh and faster moving face for the Lesson Learned centre!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jul 2005)

You seem to have this fixation for age, do you know something that we don't about the teams the Americans send to Iraq that you could share with us?


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## tomahawk6 (26 Jul 2005)

I would imagine that the Canadian problem has more to do with bureaucracy. I would suggest a more direct approach. Allow all units/commanders to have access online to the AAR's and leave it up to unit commanders to incorporate lessons learned into their training cycle. 

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=companycommander.mil&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&u=reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Final%2520Draft%2520May%252004%2520HASC%2520SubCom%2520%28Weber%29.pdf&w=%22companycommander+.mil%22&d=8DB4CFF327&icp=1&.intl=us

http://ncoteam.org/


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## MJP (27 Jul 2005)

Thanks tomahawk, nice links.  I like their immediate dissemination of all urgent labeled material.  Jives exactly with what the USMC guys said they were doing even if it was less structured.


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## KevinB (27 Jul 2005)

I think the fact that the USMC made an impression during the PPCLI leadership seminar - went along way.  Unfortunately only a small part of the CF got to take advantage of that -- the Lessons Learned Cell IMHO is exactly what sbd alluded too -- anyone remember when they where recommending giving up your weapon to de-escalte the situtations (circa 94-95 Bosnia/Crotia).  :


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## silentbutdeadly (27 Jul 2005)

the reason i get caught up on age is that, with younger snr nco's and say capt's your going to get people who not on retirement mode and don't really care. I do think its also a fear of change and alot of older snr nco's fear change, but if we want to be a better army, like the Americans/Brits we have to evolve way quicker.


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## Acorn (27 Jul 2005)

silentbutdeadly said:
			
		

> the reason i get caught up on age is that, with younger snr nco's and say capt's your going to get people who not on retirement mode and don't really care. I do think its also a fear of change and alot of older snr nco's fear change, but if we want to be a better army, like the Americans/Brits we have to evolve way quicker.



I think you might be jumping to conclusions about the "retirement mode" and whether the "old guys" don't really care. As was pointed out by tomahawk6 it's more likely bureaucracy than the attitude of those srNCOs/WOs/offrs working the Lessons Learned center. A "pull" system, as tomahawk6 suggests, would probably make it less manpower intensive to get the lessons out to the troops, but it would rely on the commanders (senior officers who may be in retirement mode) to get the info to the troops.

Acorn


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## silentbutdeadly (28 Jul 2005)

yeah i hear ya! i just get frustrated with the whole process sometimes and the people that are affected by this is the troops and Comd's on the ground.


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