# Canadians no longer remember



## Armymedic (11 Nov 2005)

National Post article

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/051111/npt/051111cv.htm

Canadians no longer remember

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'If ye break faith with us who die, we will not sleep, though poppies grow in Flander's fields." 

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Ninety years after John McCrae penned the haunting words of In Flanders Field as the carnage and horror of the Battle of Ypres raged around him, a new survey released today by the Dominion Institute suggests Canadians are "breaking faith" with our country's war dead. 

Our nation-wide poll indicates that the number of Canadians planning to attend a Remembrance Day ceremony has declined for the third year in a row. Barely 50% of Canadians will take part in events honouring our 117,000 war dead despite this being the Year of the Veteran and the nation having just marked, with much fanfare, the 60th anniversaries of D-Day and VE-Day. 

For those who would argue that these numbers indicate the glass is half full, consider the poll's finding that almost a third of our citizens indicated they would not attend a Remembrance Day event because it wasn't "personally important to them" or because they were not interested in the past or feel that Nov. 11 "just glorifies war." 

Canada is succumbing to a culture of forgetfulness: a pernicious narcissism where our individual wants and desires to trump any sense of responsibility for who we are as a country and what we've accomplished together. 

Who is to blame for the erosion of our sense of duty -- and, more importantly, what can we do to keep faith with John McCrae and our war dead? The lion's share of the responsibility rests with provincial ministries of education and the now decades-long decline of the teaching of Canadian history in high schools. 

Incredible though it may seem, in five provinces -- Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island -- students can graduate from high school without taking a single course with a 20th Century Canadian history component. And in provinces where some Canadian history is required for graduation, most curriculums give short shrift to Canada's military heritage in favour of a social studies smorgasbord of civics, geography and "world studies." 

Meanwhile, studies show that upwards of half of history teachers do not have a university degree in the Arts, let alone history. The perception among school administrators is that anyone can teach Canadian history. 

The impact of fewer and fewer dedicated Canadian history courses, and lower and lower professional standards, is seen in surveys of high school graduates revealing that only one in three can associate "D-Day" with the invasion of Normandy or knows that Vimy Ridge was a great First World War victory. 

Parallel to the devaluing of our military heritage in schools has been the shedding of civic observances of Remembrance in our communities. 

In the aftermath of the Great War, with one in 10 Canadians who fought in the mud and trenches of Flanders Fields never having returned, ours was a nation traumatized by its staggering losses. Nov. 11 was both a day of national mourning and a powerful reminder of a collective responsibility to build a better society to give meaning to Canada's immense sacrifice. After the 50 million dead in the Second World War, this dual significance of Remembrance took on added urgency. 

To ensure that our war dead rest in the peaceful slumber that they so rightly deserve, we urgently need to renew our commitment to the values of Remembrance in our schools and society at large. 

Let's make the study of 20th century Canadian history mandatory for graduation in all provinces -- something 80% of respondents to our poll supported. And let's restore Remembrance Day to its proper place as a national statutory holiday, easily achievable through a simple Act of Parliament that would be a fitting tribute to the service of the final five living veterans of the Great War. 

To fail in these tasks is to lose the true meaning of Remembrance Day: the opportunity it gives us each year to keep promise with our country's past and ponder the awesome responsibilities of citizenship.


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## Gunner (11 Nov 2005)

Maybe I'm an optimist, but in my part of the country (Edmonton, Alberta) it seems each Remembrance Day ceremony is attended by more and more spectator's.



> Let's make the study of 20th century Canadian history mandatory for graduation in all provinces -- something 80% of respondents to our poll supported. And let's restore Remembrance Day to its proper place as a national statutory holiday, easily achievable through a simple Act of Parliament that would be a fitting tribute to the service of the final five living veterans of the Great War.



I'm not against teaching modern Canadian history but will it's focus be on Canada's accomplishments or our error's (internment, etc)?   I'm not sure if I want Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday.   I don't view it as a holiday and I cringe when news media refer to it as the Remembrance Day long weekend.   Those who wish to remember and take part will do so whether it is a mandatory holiday or not.   The remainder will sleep in.


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## FormerHorseGuard (11 Nov 2005)

I think it is wrong people do not know what REMEMBRANCE DAY is for. I think for once we should be more like the Americans and make a big deal out of the day, after all those we are suppose to remember made the biggest deal, for little pay, little chance of coming home, but a huge adventure. I remember relatives who I never met who were left behind in Europe, I remember friends who came home to be buried in recent  years. I remember the men and women who I did not know of who do not grow old any longer. I also remember those who did come home to be heros.

Canadian schools do need to teach the Canadian facts,  less then 10 WW 1 vets left,  getting to be less and less WW 2 vet everyday. I think it is high time we teach our history and honour our history.


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## paracowboy (11 Nov 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm an optimist, but in my part of the country (Edmonton, Alberta) it seems each Remembrance Day ceremony is attended by more and more spectator's.


I spent the day yesterday at an elemntary school here in Edmonton. I was truly impressed by the knowlegde those children had of our soldier's sacrifices, and the interest they had my service. What impressed me the most was the fact that not all of their questions were "Have you ever shot anybody?" As well, the buses here have their destination interspersed with "Lest We Forget" flashing on the front. The number of businesses who have removed their advertising from their rent-a-signs, to put "Lest We Forget" on them, has impressed me as well.
Edmonton Remembers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Nov 2005)

I agree that I think people are paying more attention, I joined this site on November 11, 2002 just to refute someone who was trying to say that "Canadians don't care, nobody attends anymore, etc" and I logged in just to make one post and then leave [ so much for that] stating that the attendence in Guelph was going up every year.
Todays ceremony here was breath-taking for me personally between the attendence and the "suprise" I got during it. I will post that tomorrow.


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## brin11 (11 Nov 2005)

There was literally standing room only at our small Remembrance Day ceremony in my hometown today.  It was great to see so many out.  This ceremony has also been increasing in the last few years.


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## In the light of things (11 Nov 2005)

I think people have too much freedom, they just don't care about those who fought for it.  If people forget about the sacrifices our brave men and women made, I don't think they deserve freedom.  Ignorance is bliss, but it shouldn't be.


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Nov 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm an optimist, but in my part of the country (Edmonton, Alberta) it seems each Remembrance Day ceremony is attended by more and more spectator's.
> 
> I'm not against teaching modern Canadian history but will it's focus be on Canada's accomplishments or our error's (internment, etc)?  I'm not sure if I want Remembrance Day as a statutory holiday.  I don't view it as a holiday and I cringe when news media refer to it as the Remembrance Day long weekend.  Those who wish to remember and take part will do so whether it is a mandatory holiday or not.  The remainder will sleep in.



Calgary had a great turnout too.  I cringe when people say we are "celebrating" RD.  We're not, we're observing, or commemorating.


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## The Gues-|- (11 Nov 2005)

Charlottetown had the best turnout in over a decade ;D


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## axeman (11 Nov 2005)

i dont know maybe its a regional thing out here in the Esquimalt area [Langford ] to be precise   the Rememberance Day parade is growing allso. They have lately gotten a new monument   that was quarried frim the same F.Y.R. quarry that supplied Vimy Ridge theirs. ON the HMCS Ottawa we held our ceremony here in Esenada Mexico and while im not in the army anymore im still in the CF . It was a small ceremony but the Mexican army/ navy local protection asked about it .   All i can do is bring up the old quote "those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it."


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## In the light of things (11 Nov 2005)

Strange. Today when I looked outside I saw a group of teenagers stomping on their poppies, I hope they get hit by transport trucks.


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## Gunner (11 Nov 2005)

In the light of things said:
			
		

> Strange. Today when I looked outside I saw a group of teenagers stomping on their poppies, I hope they get hit by transport trucks.



In the light of things...you are trolling.


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## I_Drive_Planes (11 Nov 2005)

Here in Prince George it was a packed house again.

Planes


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## In the light of things (11 Nov 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> In the light of things...you are trolling.



It's just an observation.  Take it as you will, just proves to me the disinterest of Canada's youth.


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## Gunner (11 Nov 2005)

> It's just an observation.  Take it as you will, just proves to me the disinterest of Canada's youth.



Doesn't prove anything.  There were lots of young people at today's service in my home town.  I've also had the opportunity to speak to large groups of young Canadians and each year they ask interesting and pointed questions about Canada and our foreign policy.


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## a_majoor (11 Nov 2005)

For the third year in a row, my daughter's school sent a delegation to base for our Remembrance Day ceremony. This year they sent students from three different classes, and there were also students form several other schools in attendence. 

As long as we work together to encourage participation by the greater community, then I think we will be able to fight the trend and keep connected with the rest of Canada. This dosn't stop with Remembrance Day; get people ouit to your Regimental Museums, if you hold local parades ensure you get the word out, do community work in uniform...in other words, get off your duffs, get out of the bases and armouries and take the initiative.


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## In the light of things (11 Nov 2005)

> Doesn't prove anything.  There were lots of young people at today's service in my home town.  I've also had the opportunity to speak to large groups of young Canadians and each year they ask interesting and pointed questions about Canada and our foreign policy.



Not one thing, but I've seen too many things like this.  Including one I'd rather not talk about.


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## pbi (11 Nov 2005)

I have to agree with those who have noted the increasing interest of Canadians. This year Armour Heights Public School formed part of our service here at the College, with young students doing readings. My experiences as a guest speaker at schools in Ontario, Alberta and Manitoba in the past few years suggests to me that our kids DO learn about Remembrance Day and take it seriouslty. In my opinion we are much more respectful and involved as a nation today than we were twenty or thirty years ago.

Cheers.


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## missing1 (11 Nov 2005)

I noticed Armour heights mentioned here and would like to add that the collegiate (PCI) also let classes out for the parade, all teenagers, who stood quiet with the Veterans and at the end there were school; kids giving each Vet a card. The parade ground was packed, so I think this is another survey that lacks credibility. To many teens are being tarnished by" the few."


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## WogCpl (11 Nov 2005)

I think your on the money with that assesment,but I hope that our teenagers actually do realize the importance of Nov 11th and don't just use it as a day to "get out of class".
As far as the youth of today goes, just want to say hats off to all of our Cadets out there, as they are the ones, who stand happily as a symbol of hope for the future, with out being paid and out of pride alone!


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## paracowboy (12 Nov 2005)

FatwogCpl said:
			
		

> As far as the youth of today goes, just want to say hats off to all of our Cadets out there, as they are the ones, who stand happily as a symbol of hope for the future, with out being paid and out of pride alone!


I'll drink to that.
Well, I would if I weren't BOS.


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## jackdolly (12 Nov 2005)

I remember,my great uncle,Frank Dolhenty having given his life in 1915 in France;Private ,with queen's Own Rifles,buried in Vimy Memorial,Pas de Calais,France.Any other info on the list who died there,at that time?Any Photos?Sincerely,Jack Dolhanty,<jwdol@hotmail.com>


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## Recce41 (12 Nov 2005)

It doesn't really matter if there are hundards out. If even one person stood, layed a wreath, and took a minute to reflect. It would be Rememberance Day. My GGF was in the Boar War, GF in WW1 and Father/ F in L in WW2, I will always remember and thats all that matters to me.
What pisses me off, was that I got home and a few SOLDIERS here in Gagetown, don't even go. They were told they didn't have to?


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## Edward Campbell (12 Nov 2005)

There are several thousand military personnel here in Ottawa, I think - the various HQ buildings sure appear crowded.

Many dozen (a few hundred?) must be on duty 24/7, even when the HQ is on _Sunday routine_: some duty officers/NCOs in e.g. the NDOC/NDIC, some MPs, quite a few signalers - some medics, too, I guess.  Some just got off duty at 06:00 and, quite rightly, went home to sleep.

Dozens more (a few hundred, too?) are away on course.  Some are _excused duty_, and so on.

A few more hundred were on parade, yesterday - all over the national capital region, not just downtown at the national service.  About half, it appeared to me, were reservists.  I saw many - maybe more than a couple of hundred - _spectating_ in the crowd of 25,000+/-; a few hundred more were, almost certainly, at other, suburban, services, at schools and so on.

So let me tally up: a few hundred on duty + a couple hundred more just off duty, excused, away, etc + a few hundred on parade + a few hundred spectators = what? a thousand? a couple of thousand?  Where were the rest?  There are hundreds of Gens, Cols, LCols and Majs (and Navy equivalents) in Ottawa, a few tens had 'official' duties on Friday.  Where were the rest of these leaders?  How can I ask, "where were all the corporals and privates?" when the 'leaders' took a shopping day?

</rant>


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## armyvern (12 Nov 2005)

Recce41 said:
			
		

> What pisses me off, was that I got home and a few SOLDIERS here in Gagetown, don't even go. They were told they didn't have to?


Wow!! 3ASG pers is a must attend here at Gagetown. Even our excused drill pers etc have to report in to a Sgt at the Oromocto Cenotaph, have roll call taken, and then form up on the sidewalk behind the marching contingent.
What's even more disgusting with the scenario you state, is that some of the pers that were told this probably didn't bother to show up, which doesn't say much for their professionalism or dedication in my books either, never mind that of the idiot who told them it was an 'optional' Parade for a serving member.

As a side note, don't expect the Oromocto Cenotaph to have a Parade with the roughly 4000 pers posted to this location, never mind all the students here on course. We farm out contingents to parade at Cenotaphs all over the Province, as well as hold services at each of the Cemetaries located within the training area (and there an awful lot of them). This can be witnessed by school busses leaving this location filled with soldiers beginning approx 0500hrs any Nov 11th, and the J7 parking lot being wall to wall busses to transport personnel to closer parades at 0830hrs Nov 11th.


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## Jungle (12 Nov 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> rest?   There are hundreds of Gens, Cols, LCols and Majs (and Navy equivalents) in Ottawa, a few tens had 'official' duties on Friday.   Where were the rest of these leaders?   How can I ask, "where were all the corporals and privates?" when the 'leaders' took a shopping day?


These are the people who are in the Military because it's job... OR the senior Officers mentionned above live a permanent power trip. As a Col or Gen Officer, if they have not been invited to preside over a ceremony and "be the center of attention", they would rather not go at all.
If some (senior) members of the Armed Forces start to ignore Remembrance Day, especially with the year of the Veteran and the operational losses of recent years, we are in a lot of trouble...

Je Me Souviens


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## Recce41 (12 Nov 2005)

Yes just a job? I was out in St John (Lancaster), I perfer to go and prade at some little town, than in a city. I find it is more personal. Even if I was told to do what ever, I would still go.


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## Old Sweat (12 Nov 2005)

To add to Edward's comment re NDHQ personnel, I live in a small town about 45 kms south of Ottawa as the car drives. At our Remembrance Day service there were about 20-30 CF members in uniform in the crowd, including at least one colonel. We were also fortunate to have CF representation in the form of maintenance platoon from 3 RCR, but that is another story. These young soldiers looked fit and were very well turned-out. 

I guess what I am saying is that a good number of the CF members residing in the area took their responsibilties seriously and showed up for the parade. The master of ceremonies remarked to me just a couple of hours ago that the several members of the clergy who participated all told him how impressed they were by the sense of reverence they felt in the crowd and especially amongst the students, especially when our local Hong Kong veteran laid a wreath on behalf of his association. At least in this corner of small town Canada, we still remember.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (12 Nov 2005)

I think OS has found the answer to the "Ottawa" issue.  If it works anything like here in Edmonton, personnel not assigned to a specific cenotaph are to go to a ceremony of their choice.  This results in military personnel appearing at all sorts of local places - St Albert is typically jammed with soldiers and officers who aren't appearing at the "official" function downtown.  Moreover, units are assigned to small communities all over northern Alberta - sometimes in very small numbers.  Things aren't always as bad as they seem; to my mind, I'd have to be near death to not make a ceremony - and most others I know feel the same.


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## Gayson (12 Nov 2005)

It's hard to say about this one.

I would say that support has been going down in the GTA, but I saw TONS of people at the remeberance parade the weekend before.  My College had a ceremony on friday to my surprise with a large turnout aswell.

There was one guy who put his hand up when the speaker asked if anyone in the audience had been to war.  When I approached him and asked him what regiment / service he was in he told me that he used to be a cadet.    

I really have a hard time telling whether support for rememberance day is going up or down.


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## Marty (12 Nov 2005)

Im not sure about the GTA ,I did however see about 20 to 25 people in Tide Head NB waiting to wave and say hello to a train load of Vets going to the National Service in Ottawa. All in all Id say people are "remembering "more than ever, at least here in the sticks. The last time I saw that many people around the R/R crossing a car had been hit by the train .


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## sheikyerbouti (12 Nov 2005)

The New West ceremony was packed, Burnaby also had a great turnout regardless of the crap weather and every ANAF and RCL branch my band toured yesterday was packed.

 There is no shortage of spectators or participants, just the willingness of the press to portray it as such.

BTW Kudos to all service members who did the rounds of the branches and units as they were well thought of and highly regarded.


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## Marty (12 Nov 2005)

Actuall the press that I listened to reported that in most places there were more people "out" that most could remember .


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## Old Sweat (12 Nov 2005)

On reflection I think that people are beginning to understand that we are at war again. At our service prayers were offered for our troops in Afghanistan and for those who would go in harm's way in the future.


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## axeman (12 Nov 2005)

well i didnt go through wwII or Korea , but i have been shelled shot at and had to do a funeral in a war zone. i didnt know in 87 when i joined the reserves that I would end up where i am now. Remember that WWI was first known as the Great war , then The War To End Wars. then soon WWI as WW II came along ,eventully Korea. Slowly there came the DOMINO EFFECT in South East Asia . also the bush wars in Africa and the "Banana Republics Troubles." soon after the big names faded away , but there was still the wars going on . eventully they faded out then Grenada , and Panama.
HOOWAH for the USA . The Soviet empire started down its slope with Afghanistan , now they are broken up as well as yugoslavia which has caused Canada losses in battle , but as WAR wasnt declared they first were not entitled to status as veterans. now its quiet there but Afghanistan has raised its head again and so has iraq. there will alway be war as well as veterans , there unfortunatly will not be a loss of this status, veteran or war. the stories may not be of VIMY RIDGE as it was when i was in school [i was fortunate to have a teacher of history the went over the top there, to learn but not absorb his lessons till much later sorry Mr.Phillips. ] there are 10 WWI veterans alive today . but the stories will be told of marching to berlin for a while . then korea will fade , then as im already seeing FYR is fading already . i looked in the ranks a few years ago , once almost everyone had a UNPROFOR medal now they are few and rare, somolia same thing . now we have issued a new medal for Afghanistan and soon the SWASM will fade in time . the way that we rcord our history hasnt really changed we have added to it with motion pictures and colour . but it still comes down to some one sitting down and talking to some one else . a friend of mines wife like to break out a notepad and pen when i come by, so she can write down stories as they roll out of 2 veterans as they sit back and recall times not so long ago .after all as baz luhrmann said 

Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who 
supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of 
fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the 
ugly parts and recycling it for more than 
it's worth. 

well its not advice we are dispensing but an oral history. with my passing we will lose 1/9 of the story of the moring we were wolken up by the serbs, as well as 1/9 the part of the great bean war of 94 on OP Kilo Foxtrot. when i go it will be one less to say in 02 on the airfield in Khandahar Afghanistan i watched 4 guys i knew loaded up into a plane to be taken back to Canada. it seems a shame to all of a sudden to realize that you are mortal but if some goes , "hey in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan Canada played a part . Cindy didnt your uncle Jim do something there?" it can be done with many ppl now but in 60 years it wont be first hand stories any more it will be a few but mostly just words on paper /electrons . already we are losing ppl from 02. aggghhhhh im getting all silly on this day of days when swords were beaten into plow shears but anyway thats my 2 cents


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