# The Training That We Should Undertake As Medics In Prep For The Box...



## medaid (23 Sep 2006)

In reading and seeing somethings that are coming back from overseas with relations to medics, be it ours, the Americans or the British, it seems that the current ideals we are instilling in to our medics with regards to our roles on the battle field. The old ideas of being able to set up a static CCP has some what gone out the window has it not? Since our medics are constantly needed to be mobile, and evac to higher med facilities are more easily accessible with helos. The likelyhood  of a medic becoming underfire, and returning fire in defence of themselves and their casualties has also increased. 

SO! Should we be emphasizing the ability for:
     - quick reaction drills under fire when transporting casualties
     - quick reaction drills under convoy ops
     - conduct sweep patrols (this may really be stretching it)

Since in this new fight, the front is fluid and mobile, and without distinctive uniforms, the enemy is constantly around as we have seen number of times with IEDs and suicide bombers. I remember one of my instructors at CTC stating that more and more CSS personnel are being targeted because the enemy thinks that we will be less prone to respond adequately like the Cbt Arms, and blow them to Kingdom Come. With this increased likelyhood, should we be either changing or alternating our training to fit the current state of war fighting? What do you think are some of the other skills a medic/medical personnel should be taught and the skills honed in?

I know its been a bit of a ramble...but...I really would like to know what some ppl's opinions are in the medical field.


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## HItorMiss (23 Sep 2006)

I think the training is just fine,on our Battlefield we never let our medic go unescorted thus he could concentrate on medical stuff, plus he had a TCCC qualified escort, till he got hit anyway (the escort not the medic). I really think Medic's just need to concentrate on treatment and stabilization of serious trauma, less on clinical diagnosis of cold and flu's and more on what to do with multiple GSW with MOI indicating internal blast trauma as well as penetrating shrapnel injuries, all while in austere conditions. It's needs to be fast and sometimes dirty medicine. The injured needs to be stabilised in minutes and ready for transport.

That's just my .02 though for what it's worth anyway.

*EDIT for grammer...poorly too


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## medaid (23 Sep 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> *EDIT for grammer...poorly too




Hahaha yes...me english much gooder when grammar not written with minimal sleep  ;D


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## CBH99 (23 Sep 2006)

Its been a while since I wore a uniform (military) - anyhow...but...

I thought that with all this transformation of the Army, CCS troops were getting more relevant training, as per A-Stan?  I was under the impression, from threads here as well as the official Army website, that CSS troops were doing more realistic training in regards to convoy operations, battlefield movement, etc, etc.  I was also under the impression that CSS troops were focusing more on the 'soldier first' concept, i.e. more range time, and more time dedicated to training on the above.  Anybody care to educate me??


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## HItorMiss (23 Sep 2006)

MedTech I was talking about my grammar not your's trust me mine is very poor.


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## boondocksaint (23 Sep 2006)

The CSS that regularly leave the wire are well trained, and there is always a CBT arm element of some makeup with them to provide a fighting capability

in almost all TIC's where we had casualties we'd get them stabilized pretty much on the spot or in as safe an area as possilbe, the medics we had were all top notch, well trained, fought hard ( ours did anyway) and knew their business very well, the HLS ( helo landing site) has sorta replaced/augmented the CCP

CCP's still happen but, as you metioned the fluidity of the fighting doesnt make for establishing long term setups, and its very hard in that environment for dudes on the ground to find their way around looking for the CCP sometimes, so the CCP comes to them, either by vehicle, dismounts, or the helo, 

convoy ops are huge, and that has been a heavy casualty spot for us, wont get into much of that here due to OPSEC, but drills drills drills, they dont all have to be the same, in fact i doubt any 2 platoons used the same ones, but all attachments know their role in every situation, and the medic is key

during one TIC our medic was calmly going through his ABC's, and we were being pummeled pretty hard at that point, and there he is just like we were in a classroom, had a very calming effect on everyone and did a great job on a bad day


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## Armymedic (23 Sep 2006)

MedTech said:
			
		

> In reading and seeing somethings that are coming back from overseas with relations to medics, be it ours, the Americans or the British, it seems that the current ideals we are instilling in to our medics with regards to our roles on the battle field. The old ideas of being able to set up a static CCP has some what gone out the window has it not? Since our medics are constantly needed to be mobile, and evac to higher med facilities are more easily accessible with helos. The likelyhood  of a medic becoming underfire, and returning fire in defence of themselves and their casualties has also increased.



The old idea of setting up a CCP has NOT gone out the window...in fact, it is more essential than ever before. The CCP needs to be in an area of cover and protection with proper security put out to support it.

The only problem we have in the CFMS is that we wait until OJT at the army unit to teach and instill tactical thinking into our medics. After they finish their civilian ambulance time, and have all their medical skills we should put them onto a tactical medicine course geared to their level of skills at that time. We should also do that with the QL 5's and 6's as well. This way army tactical thinking will be held throughout a medics career.


I could add more, but I'll save it for another day.


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## boondocksaint (23 Sep 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> The old idea of setting up a CCP has NOT gone out the window...in fact, it is more essential than ever before. The CCP needs to be in an area of cover and protection with proper security put out to support it.



The CCP does and most likely always will have a place, but, in over 90ish% ( this is my semi educated yet totally unscientific guess) of our instances with casualties, we had the ability to have helo's VERY fast, (opsec so no times) so the CCP was a sheltered area on the skirt of the HLS, on the fly, nothing fancy, 

I know its been the primary, or atleast a big part of the CSM's job on the battlefield, but things just move to fast, most of the time, for a static CCP to be effective the way we've been taught over X many years

a CCP can be nothing more than a grid, a spot beside the CSM's LAV, or whatever he wants, but rarely did it evolve into a full blown conventional CCP as we know it, and that was a bad day


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## medaid (24 Sep 2006)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> The only problem we have in the CFMS is that we wait until OJT at the army unit to teach and instill tactical thinking into our medics. After they finish their civilian ambulance time, and have all their medical skills we should put them onto a tactical medicine course geared to their level of skills at that time. We should also do that with the QL 5's and 6's as well. This way army tactical thinking will be held throughout a medics career.



I agree. However, in the MO the unit tend to exercise by itself, with minimal exposure to cbt arms, unless it's a bde level ex, where we are the primary med coverage, at least that's how it feels at my unit. In the instance of my unit, we rarely ever train on anything tactical. Sure we still do our ELOC and all that other good stuff of cam and concealment, and digging a shell scrape, but I guess my thinking is that we should be doing things more related to op readiness. I know for us, before we deploy with anyone we go through the work up period and dag just like everyone else. But, if we could have practiced most of the essential skills *other then the med skills* at the local unit level, and knowing WHAT to drill and hone in on, wouldnt it make it that much easier for the reserve medic to function more at ease when they're dealing with their first multiple-penetrating chest wound while under fire?


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## boondocksaint (24 Sep 2006)

sorta the old school embedded medic thing we used to have years ago, we asked for that, but there are of course shortages everywhere, even over there, we were fortunate to keep the same medic all tour, which did bring on that sense of belonging and knowing his spot in the order of things in all circumstances as you mentioned


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## Armymedic (25 Sep 2006)

MedTech said:
			
		

> I agree. However, in the MO the unit tend to exercise by itself, with minimal exposure to cbt arms, unless it's a bde level ex, where we are the primary med coverage, at least that's how it feels at my unit. In the instance of my unit, we rarely ever train on anything tactical.



Thats fine, cause it will a cold day before they let a Res F medic without previous experience and copious pretraining go out with a company over in Afghanistan. The best a Res F medic can hope is to be employed in the facilities in KAF.


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## medaid (26 Sep 2006)

well much thanks to all who've replied! All imput greatl appreicated.


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## DartmouthDave (26 Sep 2006)

Hello,

I feel that Res F Med-A are capable of filling various medic roles in A-Stan.  After all, Res F members have filled various other rolls in operational environments. 

From my experience, I have had friends in the Res F who have deployed to BH, A-Stan, Cambodia, ect.... as Inf, Comms, and various other trades.  However, I have friend who are Res F Med-A who for various reason can not deploy, anywhere.

I know quite a few Res F Med-A with great knowledge and skills.  As long as they pass the run-up training like everybody and meet the required standard....why not?  

It seems like a potential resource being over looked.

Respectfully,

David


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## boondocksaint (26 Sep 2006)

I agree, especially since alot of Res medics are well employed on the civie side of the house gaining alot of hands on experience


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## Armymedic (26 Sep 2006)

Yes, I agree, a Res F medic who is:


			
				boondocksaint said:
			
		

> employed on the civie side of the house gaining alot of hands on experience


and has completed copious amounts of military related training and experience, could work as a platoon/coy medic in Afghnistan. But that would be the exception rather than the rule.

The rest of the prepping for the sandbox is mute, as a med techs jobs in role 1, 2, and role 3 facilites are pretty much the same regardless where in the world the facility is set up. A good med tech (not medic) can fill those roles with the proper pretraining.


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## herseyjh (27 Sep 2006)

I remember similar argument way back when Res F combat arms soldiers were first deployed with Reg F units.  I think now it can be considered common place; however, this message has always seemed to be lost when applied to the medical branch.  I believe the the Res F medical branch could play an important role in supporting the CF's current operations.  There are a lot of experienced people sitting around medical companies who could be used and who are very frustrated right now.  I will be honest here, to me it seems like such a waste of resources, as isn't that one of the roles of the Res F?  To suppot the CF and it's operational needs?


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## HItorMiss (27 Sep 2006)

Sorry Herseyjh but that argument exist still about Res F cbt arms augmenting Reg cbt arms, many would not like to take them at all into the outside the wire units but relegate them if it is mandatory to take them with us into an operational theater to D&S troops only.

I'm not saying anything for or against, however I will say on the topic that my first answer still stands and that the training medic's received at the least was functional at best it was life saving ( I personally saw a lot of "At best" scenarios).


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## DartmouthDave (27 Sep 2006)

Hello,

I will date myself here. 

Back in the day when Yugo was on the go the 1st tour was the RCR from Germany (no Res F).  Then 2RCR went and they brough Res F members to fill in rifeman and mortarman positions.  Same debate, some felt they would do better doing less 'challenging jobs'.  However, they were intergrated with the sections and did the same job their reg force counterparts did. As time went on Res F filled more gaps.  For example, section commanders and in one case my Company Commander was Res F.  Also, in some cases large percentages of rifle companies were Res F.

I know that many will say A-Stan isn't Bosnia!!  True. However, until recently it was the only 'troublesome' area that the CF has been that Res F were used extensively.  Therefore, it is our only point of comparison. So, I feel the Res F can play a role A-Stan weather medical, comms, or combat arms.  

Given time, more tour and more exposure to the Res F many will see them are peers as opposed to liabilities or necessary evils.  Also, given time, the CF will have to use the Res F to fill its needs in A-Stan.  Not because of political pressures to use the Res F but due to the fact that their isn't enough troops to go around. 

Respectfully,
Dave 8)


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## herseyjh (27 Sep 2006)

From my perspective working with the combat arms in an augmented role has always seems to work.  That is my point of view and from my first hand experience.  Yes, you have to prove yourself, and there is always those who believe that different is always bad.  I am sure we both could point out cases where this has worked out and others where it has not.  I would like to think pre-deployment training would sort these issues out as for the most part I think it does as I know of both reg and reseve member who didn't make the 'cut.'  Numerous friends of mine have used this route to eventually go reg force and now some of them are SNCOs so the system must be working for the most part.

No on to the medical branch.  We can turn the argument around and put it like this: as a combat arms member you maintain your skills when you are training, or out in the field, then you get to put those skills to the test when you deploy.  When you are deployed you are working in a real world environment and it is not a simulation.  This is a very challenging environment and if we look back at history this is when the way we do things evolves as we see what works and what doesn't.

Whereas if you are in the medical branch and that is also your civilian field you are training every day in an operational environment.  CF Medical personal come over to this environment and train in ambulances, in the ER, ect...  I have seen them and met them, and helped them with their training.  Sometime their skills are rusty, sometimes they are bang on but they are there and I am there to get them to where they have to be.  Do you see where I am going with this?  I am not saying, sorry HitorMiss but the idea of taking Reg F NO and Med-As in my ER and in my ambulance is still causing issues and if I had the choice I wouldn't have them there.  No, it is get them up to speed so they can deploy.  

Remember there is always an other side of the fence.  Res F combat arms want the experience of an operational environment (to be deployed) and Ref F medical personal need to maintain their skills when they are not deployed by seeing patients and using their skills.


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## HItorMiss (27 Sep 2006)

Ok lets be clear I was neither stating a case for or against augmentees, I have an opinion of course but this is not a thread to get into Res vs Reg stuff.

I stand by my first post on medical training, More trauma less clinical.


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## herseyjh (27 Sep 2006)

I wasn't trying to start the classic Ref F vs. Res F arguments, point and counter points, rather point out the benefits of such a system.  It is here to stay after all, as the CF doesn't have the number to operate a sustained operation without augmentation.

What I am saying is this, combat arms guys want to go overseas to apply their skill, to gain experience.  Whereas their medical counterparts might also want the same thing, but a portion of these people are working in the field on a daily basis, and I am sure if you asked them what type of trauma care is required they could tell you, or run a trauma room, but here is the kicker: in their role they are deemed not as skillful because of their Res F status.

So where does this leave the medical branch?  Well it leave it sending their members to civi hospitals, civi ambs, to train and master their skills so they will be ready to be deployed.  They could quite possibly be paired up the very member (in their civi role) who is excluded from deploying based on their MOC.  This myopic view will only hold back the medical branch in my opinion as the people who could be using their skills and knowledge are precluded from the system that needs them the most.

At least if Pte. Bloggis gets deployed and goes on a tour his experience is valued when he come back to his host unit.


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## Armymedic (27 Sep 2006)

Herseyjh,
You are mistaken...In every other medical service specialty less med tech, Res F members are used over seas, and quite effectively (a couple of them even populate these boards). It is a small percentage, but they are there. Most of those roles are inside the wire. It is only in the evac role, usually the Coy/platoon medic (read dismounted patrol medics) that Res F Med Techs are rarely employed in.


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## herseyjh (28 Sep 2006)

No, I wasn't mistaken, I was sadly commenting on med techs.  My point of view might be a bit personal, but when I decide to persue a civi medical career I decided to remuster to a comparable MOC.  I won't mince words here, it was the biggest mistake of my career.  From a reg force point of view you are treated like the dumb brother, and from a civi point of view I saw my CF training as dated and antequated.  In essence you are in limbo, all the while you spend your civi days showing reg force members the ropes so they can go on tour and provide med coverage, whereas in the reseve medical world it was  train, show up, provide medical coverage (in Canada) but that is where it ends.  Until I remustered I had a better change of going overseas with a PMC as a civi.  And I think that is the crux of the argument.


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## Donut (28 Sep 2006)

Amen, Brother.


Testify! ;D


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## Skar-mag (28 Sep 2006)

Gentleman, I think that the issue is more along the lines of what trg should we focus on now that we know out old methods don't work.

Res F medical pers with civi experience are deploying to A'Stan, some of these are leaving the wire.  That is fact, I know b/c I was one of them.  

The only Res F pers that can deploy are those that are working in medicine in their civi jobs.  Herseyjh:  to further push your point the CF Trauma Trg Centre is the Vancouver Hospital, a civi hospital with civi staff, this is oriented to the MO, NO and Spec MOC's.  The need is to take the NCM medics as there is a chance that all of them will go outside the wire (not just dismount/evac) and teach them Cbt Arms skills.  Med Techs are the only CSS element that goes everywhere with the Cbt arms.

The P Res Med techs are deploying in dismounted/evac roles, yes they are only those that have civi experience also 9/10 of the times they are also previous Cbt Arms re-musters.  A valid point is that we need to train all Medics on Cbt arms tactics, and enforce PT standards.  Putting an FTOS medic with an extra 80-100lbs of kit outside the wire (inside a veh or not) is not doing anyone favors.

It is time to consider things like a Cbt Medic trade and a Cbt Infantry/Medic badge.


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## HItorMiss (28 Sep 2006)

Skar-mag said:
			
		

> It is time to consider things like a Cbt Medic trade and a Cbt Infantry/Medic badge.



Were getting very close to that with the TCCC course, I know for a Fact that our Coy medic loved that his escort on the battlefield was TCCC gave him room to work and a guy who knew what he was doing.


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## boondocksaint (28 Sep 2006)

were you ( the RCR ) given more TCCC ? we had guys qualified 1-2 years ago, but noone recently, we're told no more courses, for various reasons

that course is vital


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## HItorMiss (28 Sep 2006)

Yes we ran 2 serials of the TCCC course one in Feb and then the one I did in June/July.

Members of 2 PPCLI were on the second serial with me as well, your 100% right that course is vital and should be the standard for first aid for Cbt Arms.

*EDIT: Don't hold me to the date of the first course I may be wrong, it was awinter serial none the less


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## boondocksaint (28 Sep 2006)

That's good to hear, I agree that course should be mandatory if not for every CBT arm, atleast 1 per section, det

we raised a big fuss about it over there, perhaps it finally trickled down the way it's supposed to, at any rate glad to hear it's back on


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## HItorMiss (28 Sep 2006)

It came in handy that's for sure, as I said it was a great asset in the medic's pocket to have a TCCC qualed guy for him to use the upside was that he got an escort and a compotent set of hand's he didn't need to supervise at all times while he worked on other casualties.


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## Armymedic (28 Sep 2006)

Having a TCCC qualified "escort" for the medics does not completely address the need for medics to be tactically aware as well.


PS- courses were Jan and Jun. We did the Bg tng in Feb-Mar. Another course is running in Pet next week.


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