# No more 7.62 sniper system



## Timberwolfe (13 Mar 2006)

So it looks like Canada will not have a .308 cal sniper system any longer. The new (typicaly) overpriced medium range sniper weapon system (MRSWS) will be it. I find it odd that we go with the .338 Lapua round when we already have the .50 cal sniper system.  ??? The MRSWS at a cost of close to $15000.00 per unit seems a bit out there when we could have bought the M40 for half that price. I admit the .338 Lapua Timberwolfe is a beutifull system but  because of the cost they are buying limited numbers. Where as we could have twice as many M40's. Or what I think would be even better would be to bridge the gap with the HK MSG90.


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Mar 2006)

Well it is my understanding that the system was picked by the snipers themselves. It will be a significantly lighter system to carry around that the .50cal and better suited for Urban ops. The 308 is an excellent round but the new round gives a significant edge at longer ranges.


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## MG34 (13 Mar 2006)

Timberwolfe said:
			
		

> So it looks like Canada will not have a .308 cal sniper system any longer. The new (typicaly) overpriced medium range sniper weapon system (MRSWS) will be it. I find it odd that we go with the .338 Lapua round when we already have the .50 cal sniper system.  ??? The MRSWS at a cost of close to $15000.00 per unit seems a bit out there when we could have bought the M40 for half that price. I admit the .338 Lapua Timberwolfe is a beutifull system but  because of the cost they are buying limited numbers. Where as we could have twice as many M40's. Or what I think would be even better would be to bridge the gap with the HK MSG90.



 First off it's TIMBERWOLF not Timberwolfe,the M40 does not meet the requirements of the MRSWS,hence the .338 Lapua caliber. The numbers purchased are based on the requirements not the price,which has nothing to do with anything BTW the 15K price is the retail pricing NOT what DND is paying). The MSG90mis not a military sniper rifle,it is intended as a sharpshooter's rifle (we already have systems to fill that role) I suggest you engage your brain before engageing your fingers and learn before you post. It is obvious you are out of your depth here.


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## GO!!! (13 Mar 2006)

If I'm not mistaken, there are significant adcantages to the .338 related to the higher speed of the round, the flatter trajectory and, as mentioned, the lighter weight of the weapon.

The .50 has the trajectory of a basketball going for a three point shot at range, and is far more susceptable to atmospheric conditions (like wind) due to this slow speed, large round and high arc. The Lapua .338 is more akin to a laser beam, being far faster and flatter, and as such, is more accurate.

This will no doubt contrast with Timberwolf*e*'s extensive Counterstrike "experience" but hey, the truth hurts.


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## NavyShooter (14 Mar 2006)

> Often have I regretted my speech, never my silence



I like this line!

As for the Timberwolf, well, the selection process excluded the .308 systems due to the long range requirements.  No M-40A1 for you.

The shooters will have the gear they want, and need to do the jobs asked of them.  

Not being "there" as it were, I do find myself thinking it likely that the .308 will be retained in at the very least a training capacity, allowing more training rounds to be expended for the same costs.

YMMV, but I don't think the .308 is completely gone yet, though with MUCH better systems onhand than the MSG-90, why would people think about buying an antiquated weapons system?  Is there a 1913 integral rail on the MSG that I've never seen?  

Counterstrike experience included, I'd lean towards the guys pulling the real triggers.

NS


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## KevinB (14 Mar 2006)

We have the AR10T as a 7.62mm spotter weapon.

 MG34 and others already showed your ass -- please keep your uneducated comments to yourself.


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## HItorMiss (14 Mar 2006)

I had been watching Timberwolfes post and wondering when someone would jump on him, someone with more weapons knowledge then myself that is, TimberWolf time to back out nice and slow don't push a losing postion, you just lose your command needlesly.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Mar 2006)

Actually a good point though, .308 in a similar platform to the Timberwolf would make an inexpensive rifle for reservist snipers to train on. Plus good quality .308 ammo is common as dirt and fairly cheap. The rifle should have the same scope and similar stock.


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## NavyShooter (14 Mar 2006)

Reservist snipers?


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Mar 2006)

I don't think there are many of those kicking around.


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## geo (14 Mar 2006)

some reservists have qualified as snipers.... not many, but there are some.

WRT a 308 sniper rifle.... that's what the Parker hale C3 is all about
but, having been in use for some 30 years, it's fairly dated and seen better days.

To date, there are few oportunities for Reservists to maintain their skill set as a sniper. Hard enough for em to keep up in their basic occupation.

IMHO


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## HItorMiss (14 Mar 2006)

Lets be clear here before we get a bunch of I wanna be a Reservist Sniper/Recce/Jumper/JTF2/Ninja god

all known Reservist that are Sniper qualified attained that course through the Regular Force, as in they were Reg Force soldiers that were lucky and skilled enough to but receive the Recce Course and then Pass the Sniper Course, There are no Reserve Sniper courses, nor do Reservist get slotted onto Regular Force Sniper Course's.

Sorry for the thread hijack but I could see where this may have lead and I wanted to stop it in its tracks.

now back to talking about why we went with the .338 lupa round and rifle


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Mar 2006)

Hmmm, interesting, they used to have them, but then they also used have HMG’s platoon with .50cals, mortar platoon with 81mm’s and a anti tank platoon with the Carl G and 106RR. Glad to see we have “modernized” the reserves.   :'(

Anyways, everything I hear about the new sniper rifle is great, saw a picture of the kit issue that comes with each rifle and there is a fair bit of stuff included.


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## geo (14 Mar 2006)

106RR platoons?.... not really - I belonged to a 106 unit and you need more than 4 dets to make a platoon

50 cal platoons - never saw any of those

81mm mortar platoon?..... if my memory serves me right, those units were limited to 4 tubes..... 

Enough kit to develop basic capabilities - not really enough to develop a deployable capability.


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## geo (14 Mar 2006)

Hit or miss....
If memory serves me right, some spots were made available to reservists.
this goes back to the early 80s - pretty sure at least two fellas attended.


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## GO!!! (14 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Lets be clear here before we get a bunch of I wanna be a Reservist Sniper/Recce/Jumper/JTF2/Ninja god
> 
> all known Reservist that are Sniper qualified attained that course through the Regular Force, as in they were Reg Force soldiers that were lucky and skilled enough to but receive the Recce Course and then Pass the Sniper Course, *There are no Reserve Sniper courses, nor do Reservist get slotted onto Regular Force Sniper Course's.*



+ 1


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## NATO Boy (14 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Lets be clear here before we get a bunch of I wanna be a Reservist Sniper/Recce/Jumper/JTF2/Ninja god
> 
> all known Reservist that are Sniper qualified attained that course through the Regular Force, as in they were Reg Force soldiers that were lucky and skilled enough to but receive the Recce Course and then Pass the Sniper Course, There are no Reserve Sniper courses, nor do Reservist get slotted onto Regular Force Sniper Course's.



What about INDOC sniper? I know of one WO in my unit who has it; never served in the Regs either...


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## KevinB (14 Mar 2006)

Mickey said:
			
		

> What about INDOC sniper? I know of one WO in my unit who has it; never served in the Regs either...



 ???

Pre Sniper (pre course to weed out and pre train)
Basic Sniper
Sniper Det Commander
Master/Advanced Sniper

There have been threads prevosuly on the .338LM and MRSWS selection.


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## George Wallace (14 Mar 2006)

Mickey said:
			
		

> What about INDOC sniper? ...


 ???

INDOC sniper   ???

What the heck is an INDOC sniper?

"Hello.  My name is Sgt. 'Red'.  For the next forty minutes I will be giving you a lecture on the Sniper rifles employed by the CF.  The Main Teaching Points of this Lecture will be: The Names and Characteristics of all CF Sniper Rifles; The Types of Ammunition used in CF Sniper Rifles; and, a Brief Overview of How the CF Employes Sniper Rifles.  The References are listed on your handouts.  This Lecture is Unclassified."


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## GO!!! (14 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> "Hello.  My name is Sgt. 'Red'.  For the next forty minutes I will be giving you a lecture on the Sniper rifles employed by the CF.  The Main Teaching Points of this Lecture will be: The Names and Characteristics of all CF Sniper Rifles; The Types of Ammunition used in CF Sniper Rifles; and, a Brief Overview of How the CF Employes Sniper Rifles.  The References are listed on your handouts.  This Lecture is Unclassified."



Woohooo!

I'm an INDOC sniper!

<scurries over to phone and tells Pl 2i/c of new qualification,  and asks for an additional entry on the courses sheet>

Actually, I must be an *advanced* INDOC sniper - I've actually fired and owned some of the sniper rifles!


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## NATO Boy (15 Mar 2006)

It's still a course available to reservists......even if it seems like a joke to you guys. Besides, isn't the INDOC more than just familiarisation of weapons such as the C3 or MacMillan .50? I thought there was other theory involved...advanced shooting with the C7...further development of cam and concealment, etc...
Is it really that watered down???


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

I'm getting sick of this "Reserve Sniper" blahh blahhh. I'm going to call CFRC and find out; cause I never in my career have heard of any reserve sniper. At least in recent recent history...So anyway we only need 36 50 cals. Since we have the pimpin G wagons, now lets arm up our skull monkeys!! I left the CF cause I was sick of being in a welfare army. Now I regret leaving!!  :rage: Does anyone know if there is a improvment in technology for the spotting scopes? Do they actully have digital rage finders? What sort of scope will these 50s have? 

-This ain't your daddies shotgun boy!!-


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## KevinB (15 Mar 2006)

:

Mickey -  a familiarization is not a qualification -- when I did my Small Arms Coaching Course in 1988 we got a famil on the C3 (pre C3A1) 
Same as when we run Foreign Weapon shoots and classes - you DO NOT GET A QUALIFICATION...

ALL CF Course course are on the DIN
  Guess what does not show up...


You or your WO is FULL OF SHIT.


GonzoK83 - the Vector LRF is in the system


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## TCBF (15 Mar 2006)

"Do they actully have digital rage finders?"

- Well, this here thread is turning into a pretty good 'rage finder'!

 ;D

Tom


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

KevinB-  Thanx I'll Google it.


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## NATO Boy (15 Mar 2006)

Just to clarify...I "never" said INDOC was a qualification; neither did the WO. I only said it was a course for reservists (whereas someone said there are NO RESERVE SNIPER COURSES of "ANY" Kind.) Sorry if I appeared ignorant; I just want to get my facts straight rather than show my @$$ like other posters have.


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Mar 2006)

A reserve sniper could be something as simple as a reg force member joining the reserves with the sniper course.  I'm not sure that any reserve units hold sniper rifles.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> A reserve sniper could be something as simple as a reg force member joining the reserves with the sniper course.  *I'm not sure that any reserve units hold sniper rifles.
> *




Ahh. Getting back closer to the original question, but not quite. Let's try harder. The question is about the 7.62 sniper system, going defunct. Not about, Reserve snipers. Real or otherwise. Back on track please Gents.


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Mar 2006)

fun police
;D


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## The_Falcon (15 Mar 2006)

Mickey said:
			
		

> Just to clarify...I "never" said INDOC was a qualification; neither did the WO. I only said it was a course for reservists (whereas someone said there are NO RESERVE SNIPER COURSES of "ANY" Kind.) Sorry if I appeared ignorant; I just want to get my facts straight rather than show my @$$ like other posters have.



I know what "course" you are talking about, and it is NOT a course.  It is/was a familiarization about sniper weapons/techniques/training that was used a cool retention tactic and to possibly make people think about CTing.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I know what "course" you are talking about, and it is NOT a course.  It is/was a familiarization about sniper weapons/techniques/training that was used a cool retention tactic and to possibly make people think about CTing.



Tsk, tsk. Not listening
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Last warning. If you want to talk about Sniper quals and courses, take it to the existing thread where it belongs.


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## Spr.Earl (15 Mar 2006)

Ahh and I was just going to tell him what a dead eye dick I are. :


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## KevinB (15 Mar 2006)

Well it was stupid thread to begin with.

The MRSWS was designed from a Operational Requirement -additionally the C3A1 was both long in the tooth - parts are scarce and PH had gone bye bye.
  Units had a few McMillan Tac-50 Rifles that came out of "another Canadian unit" purchase of them - there was no trial done for the TAC-50 and while it served a role it was not a full spectrum platfrom.

.338LM was chosen as it is a very flat shooting cartridge which buck wind better and is more generous to poor wind and range calls -- plus it is effective in the Anti-Personnel role to aprox the same distance as the .50  - it can also be carried with greater ease by the operator.

.308Win/7.62x51 NATO has a limited range - it is for all intensive purposes a 800m round - as such it is a good cartridge for an autoloading platfrom like the KAC Mk11 or M110 and the Armalite AR10T's - which gives quick follow shot ability (as opposed to the boltguns) in close in urban and complex terrain rural environments.


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## HItorMiss (15 Mar 2006)

Lord I tried...Oh Lord how I tried......  :

Having talked to some of the Sniper that did some trials on MRSWS, It seems they all loved the .338 round plus the compactness (re: less weight) then the TAC .50 made it much preferable for the boys to hump it.

The Vectors are one of the nicest pieces of kit I have ever had the pleasure of using, only other optics kit I like better are the sohpies.

Speaking of sophies, Kev you got access to these?


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

Here is a write up on the TAC 50

Big Mac’ — McMillan’s Tac-50
Neither the Canadian government nor  DND are willing  to comment on CF sniping in Afghanistan but unconfirmed reports put ‘kills’ by 3PPCLI snipers at more than 20. A particularly successful  CF rifle  is the new 12.7mm McMillan Tac-50. One shot, in the Shah-i-kot, set a gruesome new distance record for sniping — 2,430m. The combat effectiveness of the Tac-50 and CF snipers (nominated for five US Bronze Stars) has now been proven.

I find that 2,430m to be very impressive. I dont' know how accurate of report the 20 kills are but that would be one hell of a mess to clean up. If anyone is intersted I can post the URL of where I got this infromation.


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

Here is that URL http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-tac50.htm


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## HItorMiss (15 Mar 2006)

That Info is old hat, anyone with any intrest in sniping or in the CF in general knew about that tid bit since oohh 2002...

I think this thread had run it's course, other then my question to Kev about sophies, which is more a personal thing then really furthering the topic..Mod's at your leasure might as well kill this one


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> I think this thread had run it's course, other then my question to Kev about sophies, which is more a personal thing then really furthering the topic..Mod's at your leasure might as well kill this one



What? Don't want to wait for a rebutt from Timberwolfe? Let's give it a bit in case he needs clarification.


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## HItorMiss (15 Mar 2006)

Fire mission in 5 for 5 wait out


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> That Info is old hat, anyone with any intrest in sniping or in the CF in general knew about that tid bit since oohh 2002...
> 
> I think this thread had run it's course, other then my question to Kev about sophies, which is more a personal thing then really furthering the topic..Mod's at your leasure might as well kill this one



Holy, get a grip troop!! I haven't had anything to do with the CF since '99. I really haven't cared till recently on whats going on with the CF cause I don't work for my welfare anymore. ;D


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## 1feral1 (15 Mar 2006)

Hey Gonzo, what are you saying about 1999? One of your your posts indicates your CURRENT sitrep is PPCLI about to go Militia with the N Sask R, either out of Saskatoon or B Coy in Prince Albert. 

Now you say you have had nothing to do with the CF since 1999, and the working for your welfare bit, well I think that comment is in bad taste. If you feel you didn't do too much for your income whilst a member, sounds like a bad attitude or a piss poor leadership problem at the section/platoon level, not a problem with the CF widespread. Remember, the public reads these threads, and we all know soldiers only get out of it what they put into it. Thats life in any professional army.

Personal matters aside, what ever happened to loyality and dedication, plus mutual respect for your Corps and Regiment.

Now for all, WRT to sniper rifles in Militia units.....

Back in the late 1980s and early 1990's the R Reg Rif out of Regina had a few PH C3 (M82) rifles with the ZF69 optics etc. I don't know why they were held, as there was no 'snipers' in the unit. But these weapons were there as I annually had to inspect them. They also had a batch of FN C1A1D's too.

Wes


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## GonzoK83 (15 Mar 2006)

Wesley H. Allen, CD 
You must have miss read or I must have goofed. I was A Coy N Sask R in S'toon after leaving the PPCLI.  I remained there in hopes of remustering to the Unicorn as a Navy Reserve. I hope that clear this up?

I agree I did make a bad statement. I have to apologize to anyone that may have been offended.


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## 1feral1 (15 Mar 2006)

I din't misread it mate, and thanks for having the intestinal fortitude accepting the responsibility and setting things straight.

Regards,

Wes


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## HItorMiss (15 Mar 2006)

First things first.....

Don't ever call me troop again, Don't bud's me don't anything me other then call me by my screen name...are we clear?

Second, I was not coming on to you, just pointing out that the info you had given was old.

Third, Be very careful about your tone on here to some people, some Soldiers on here are very very senior or very very experienced all of which have earned the right to be called by their screen name or if your very lucky to know their first names by that.

Now if your done trying to p*SS me off, have you got any info you would like to add to this conversation that maybe pertinent?


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2006)

Soooooo...OK then. I guess I should have locked it back there. All done.


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