# Proper protocol for Officer Cadets



## thorbahn (15 Apr 2005)

We have 2 new Officer Cadets in our unit, and I was wondering what are the proper things to do around them. Do they get called Sir? And they don't get saluted, right?


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## BKells (15 Apr 2005)

Be sure to jack them up.


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## Strike (15 Apr 2005)

They aren't comissioned so you don't salute them.  But you should call them Sir/Ma'am.

I once got saluted by an RSM in Valcartier while I was an OCdt.  When I asked him why he saluted me he said anyone who spent 4 years working for a degree deserved it in his eyes.  Nice guy.

But, generally, no saluting.


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## Kat Stevens (15 Apr 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> Be sure to jack them up.



Yeah, do that... coz when he's a major, he'll NEVER remember a private that climbed on his frame  :. Be polite, point em in the right direction... sir, yes: salute, no...

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Teddy Ruxpin (15 Apr 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> Be sure to jack them up.



Or there's no way he could have been in the ranks at one time and is more than used to dealing with insolent soldiers...  ;D


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## thorbahn (15 Apr 2005)

Thank you, seems to be as I expected.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Apr 2005)

Unless you're comfortable addressing them as "Officer Cadet ______" when you address them, then calling them Sir/Ma'am is both easier and appropriate.

While you may not be required to salute them because of their rank, there are times when it is proper protocol to do so based on their appointment. If they are given an appointment in the unit, which may happen if the unit is short of officers, it is polite and proper to address them and pay compliments as you would for any other officer in that role. For example, if Officer Cadet Bloggins has been made 3 Platoon Commander, then he should be treated as such; addressed as "Sir" when appropriate, and saluted to acknowledge his position within the unit. 

More important than trying to find and follow a specific "rule" for behaviour towards an Officer Cadet, keep in mind that shortly he/she will be commissioned and then you will be required to pay proper compliments. If you treat an Officer Cadet with disdain as "not a proper officer" you will only teach him/her that you choose not to be respectful when the QR&O allows you to not be so, even when you knew they are to be commissioned within your own unit. Far better to pay compliments both to demonstrate your own professionalism, but also to give them the opportunity to learn how to respond, and so that they learn that the higher standard can and should be a normal regimental behaviour.


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## Britney Spears (15 Apr 2005)

> I once got saluted by an RSM in Valcartier while I was an OCdt.  When I asked him why he saluted me he said anyone who spent 4 years working for a degree deserved it in his eyes.  Nice guy.




So you, the OCtd,  decided it was a good idea to correct the RSM over his saluting protocal?  ;D

Honestly, even if it isn't technically correct, Most Ocdts appreiciate a hi-five, if anything it reminds them of their future responsibilities and the corresponding prestige, which always feels great no matter who you are, and it always brightens up everyone's day.



Just stay away from the obssesive-compulsive ones like *Strike*.


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## Marauder (15 Apr 2005)

If your OCDT is being genial/helpful and is eyes/ears open, then sure, give em a pat on the ass with a high-five now and then. If he's a Junior Herr General in the making, just call him Mr. Bloggins and move out with the level gaze. It's kinda like training a puppy.


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## Strike (15 Apr 2005)

Okay, let me be a little more specific -- I thanked him and THEN asked why he (an RSM) would salute me (a then OCdt).

I'm not obsessive compulsive -- only when it comes to twisted phone cords!!! ^-^


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## Garry (16 Apr 2005)

Howdy,

I couldn't disagree more with the concept of saluting Officer cadets. 

First off, you never salute the person- you salute the commission.

Second- there is no history that I know of to support saluting an Officer cadet filling a command position. The position could just as easily (and probably more competently) have been filled by a Warrant Oficer- you going to salute him? (bet if you do, you don't do it a second time)

Third- never "thank" someone for saluting you. As stated above, they're NOT saluting you, but the commission- and they're not doing anyone a favour- they're doing what's required. Need to say something? say "good day" , nice weather,,,whatever, but NOT thank you. 

Fourth- an Officer Cadet is nothing more (and nothing less) than a future leader- and a current member of OUR team. He/she is there to learn- the quality of YOUR teaching will most likely manifest itself in his/her behaviour later on. 

Fifth- bottom line, the salute is an acknowledgement of two professionals. 

Good natured ribbing of the young is fun, and welcomes the new kids into the Regimental family in a good way. Ragging on newbies because you think you can get away with it is a losers game- you degenerate yourself, your Regiment, and your efficacy....and sometimes the Officer cadet you're ragging on turns out to be 220 pounds of recently remustered Dragoon seargant.........

Cheers-Garry


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## Guardian (16 Apr 2005)

Just for everyone's information, in Gagetown, the Standing Orders state "Officer cadets will be saluted outside of a course context." I think this stands more because of a perceived training opportunity - reminding the about-to-become officers that their scope of responsibility is about to get a whole lot bigger (and give them a chance to learn and practice returning salutes...)



			
				Garry said:
			
		

> Second- there is no history that I know of to support saluting an Officer cadet filling a command position. The position could just as easily (and probably more competently) have been filled by a Warrant Oficer- you going to salute him? (bet if you do, you don't do it a second time)



A couple years ago, the Artillery School employed an Officer Cadet (awaiting a Phase) as a Troop Commander in W Battery for several months - logic being to give the OCdt some command experience. In such circumstances, you'd better believe the TC gets saluted - and the aforementioned WO, the TSM, would enforce it. 



			
				Garry said:
			
		

> Third- never "thank" someone for saluting you. As stated above, they're NOT saluting you, but the commission- and they're not doing anyone a favour- they're doing what's required. Need to say something? say "good day" , nice weather,,,whatever, but NOT thank you.



Agreed here - this always bugs me when I see it. I'd like to think that the guy saluting me is doing it out of respect for me personally, as well as because of the rank, but he doesn't have to for THAT reason. I try to say "good day..." - thanking the guy for something he's ordered to do anyway just doesn't feel right...



			
				Garry said:
			
		

> Fourth- an Officer Cadet is nothing more (and nothing less) than a future leader- and a current member of OUR team. He/she is there to learn- the quality of YOUR teaching will most likely manifest itself in his/her behaviour later on.
> 
> Fifth- bottom line, the salute is an acknowledgement of two professionals.



May I ask how you square these two statements? They seem contradictory to me. Even assuming the OCdt isn't a professional (that's a dubious statement at best, but we'll leave it), how can you seriously expect them to "manifest" "quality teaching" if you don't treat him as a professional?

I'm not saying that just because he's a professional, you should salute him. Personally, I agree with the previous posts - unless otherwise ordered, NCMs shouldn't feel obligated to salute OCdts who don't hold command roles. There's a training incentive in that, as well - an OCdt who works hard and wins the respect of the troops around him starts getting salutes, and will be encouraged to keep it up ... and learn in a direct way that the trust and respect of the troops is very important.


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## childs56 (16 Apr 2005)

i addresse them by Mr or Mrs. I sometimes salute them. more times then not i dont. I never stood at attention for them when addressing them unless they were in formal charge of some key position ie a troop. etc, for inspection. I always reminded them that no matter what they were ever told by any one the best way to earn the respect of the soldiers is to listen to them and use their knowledge to your advantage,  never be afraid to ask a question, Never ever turn your back on your troops when they need you.


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## Sailing Instructor (16 Apr 2005)

I always based my ettiquete off the drill manual, which doesn't even mention officer cadets, but does say that besides the queen &al. commissioned officers are the only ones to be saluted.  

At my sea cadet unit, we teach the cadets to salute ncdts, but I always hated it, only receiving the salute when my DCPO reported to me on parade.  (I'm an awful stickler & will march with my arms breast-pocket high until I finish BOTP.)

But now I learn there is a precedent for saluting ocdts at other places.  All I ask is why can't they just be treated as are sgts-maj or CPOs: with respect but no salute?  

How about this: as we can salute civilians, can an officer not to salute NCM reservists who are off duty (& are therefore civilians)?  I rather think we ought not to.

When a CO orders 'salute ocdts' which is contrary to the drill manual, is there a conflict?  The manual is an order isn't it?


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## Pencil Tech (16 Apr 2005)

I always call them Mr or Ms, and I don't think that's a sign of disrespect, that's the way I was taught. I've had friends who were CFR'd and I went from calling them MCpl to Mr and then Sir when they got their commission. OCdt is not a rank - and not to make a big deal of it - a Pte outranks them. Sometimes they haven't even done basic training yet.


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## Big Foot (16 Apr 2005)

Pencil Tech, I advise that you look at the rank structure again. OCdt is an actual rank, and despite the fact you may not think so, they do deserve some manner of respect. As a techincality, privates do not outrank us. As well, do not forget, there are officer cadets, especially within the ROTP program, who are phase 3 qualified in their trade. Like it or not, OCdt is a rank and its here to stay. It might be the lowest officer rank, but it is an officer rank nevertheless and should be treated as such.


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## Zoomie (16 Apr 2005)

Officer Cadet is an enignma in its self - not an NCM rank, not quite an Officer either.  It is on the bottom of the Officer scale just because eventually they will become one...

There has never been a precedence for an OCdt to be saluted - nor should there be.  If you have an OCdt filling in as your Troop Leader - sobeit - but no salutes.  Sergeant's and Warrant's fill in that duty all the time, there is no difference.

OCdt is the rank given to members in training and/or at school.  If you do not yet possess a University degree, you will be an OCDT until graduation or MOC qualified, whichever happens first.


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## aesop081 (16 Apr 2005)

During my time at CFSME, i instructed many Ocdts and the accepted form of adress was Mr/mrs whatever.........they are not to be saluted as they do not have a commission regardless of of their MOC status ( i.e. phase 3 or whichever).  There is a need for respect as they are not "bottom feeders" but future leaders and are to be "groomed" as such by the competent NCOs who instruct them.  To me it boils down to professionalism. No salute..........but with respect.


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## Neill McKay (16 Apr 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> How about this: as we can salute civilians, can an officer not to salute NCM reservists who are off duty (& are therefore civilians)?



Off-duty reservists are not civilians.  Where did you get that idea?


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## winchable (16 Apr 2005)

I was always Mr'd and Sir'd (which to be honest I never got used to), never saluted but never called by my last name alone like the Jr. NCM's are.

Saluted once by accident when I was fresh into the uniform and had no idea what to do, I returned the salute as best I could and told them it wasn't neccessary.

No commission-no salute is a perfectly reasonable idea, but remember that that thing is going to have a commission one day and 
 you're going to have to work with them, so as aesop said, it's probably best to be respectful even if they're just 'playing grownup' for a while, it is the professional thing to do.



> There is a need for respect as they are not "bottom feeders" but future leaders and are to be "groomed" as such by the competent NCOs who instruct them.



Couldn't have said it better.


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## NavalGent (16 Apr 2005)

Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment

What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.


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## Neill McKay (16 Apr 2005)

NavalGent said:
			
		

> Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment
> 
> What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.



That's all correct; an off-duty reservist can do certain things that an off-duty regular member can't, as you've outlined.  (Some freedoms remain absent from their lives, e.g. joining a white supremacist group, for those so inclined.  Even with the uniform hanging in the closet, the reservist is a reflection of the Forces.)  But they're not civilians, and not captured by the provision in the drill manual for the saluting of civilians by service members.


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## Sailing Instructor (16 Apr 2005)

I was propounding it as a logical issue rather than an actual problem (i.e. that I have a sudden urge to salute my NCM-reservist friends when they're out of uniform).

But I'm still curious on the status of the drill manual (or any publication like that) and CO's orders.  Obviously if the CO orders you to salute a cadet (or anyone for that matter) you salute them, but ought one to ask up the COC to have the policy brought in line with the drill manual.

In favour of saluting cadets if ordered, The drill manual does say:


> 34. Other Occasions. Compliments shall be
> paid on other occasions as notified from time to time
> in the appropriate regulations, orders and instructions.



However, right at the beginning of the compliments section, it states:


> 3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid
> to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
> the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
> heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the
> ...



Note it doesn't mention para 34.

Perhaps there is a CANFORGEN of which I am unaware.


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## Sig_Des (17 Apr 2005)

> Sailing Instructor is not totally off base with his "off duty reservist = civilian" comment
> 
> What I'm sure he was referring to was not of a reservists competency or professionalism, but rather his or her legal status. When off duty, reservists aren't subject to the NDA, and I'm under the impression that they have civilian-esque freedoms when off duty that they don't have when in uniform, and regular force folks don't have at all, such as the right to run for public office.
> Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't take it as an insult or an attack.



Actually, if a off-duty reserve officer is in a situation where they may get saluted, they're probably on DND property, and subject to the NDA. just a caveat


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## Glorified Ape (17 Apr 2005)

From my understanding, the no-commission-no-salute thing is appropriate. Of course, I wouldn't mind being saluted although I'd feel slightly less than deserving of it since I haven't completed any training past IAP and I have no commission. I was saluted once and it surprised the crap out of me - of course I returned the salute but I didn't correct the Mcpl that rendered it. 

When people address me, sometimes it's sir and sometimes it's Ocdt. As I said before, since I have no commission I have no expectation to be called sir. Maybe I'm just laid back, I dunno. Maybe I should join the airforce.  ;D

Just as an aside - when I'm dealing with civilian workers and commissionaires I usually call them "sir" or "ma'am" just out of respect. Is that wrong? I've never had someone correct me on it, they just seem to be kind of surprised.


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## Zoomie (17 Apr 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Just as an aside - when I'm dealing with civilian workers and commissionaires I usually call them "sir" or "ma'am" just out of respect. Is that wrong? I've never had someone correct me on it, they just seem to be kind of surprised.



Not at all - it's just a sign of respect...


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## SeanNewman (19 Apr 2005)

To get back to the main post here, the saying "a Private is senior to an OCdt" is a half-truth.

In the same way you can have a Pte trained, and a Pte recruit, you can have an OCdt who knows nothing, and an OCdt who is a qualified dismounted platoon commander.  If he has passed Ph3, and is on the job training at a 3rd Bn while awaiting Ph4, it is very possible that he may be a stand-in platoon commander.

This is the one instance where you would salute an OCdt, because while the rule states that you're saluting the scroll, this OCdt knows how to lead troops in combat.

It's not as simple as rank = salute, because in this instance, the OCdt is higher up the chain than a 2Lt with a degree on BOTC, still learning tripods.

This is the full answer to the question.


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## aesop081 (19 Apr 2005)

Its not a question of what position an Ocdt occupies or if he knows how to lead troops into cobat or out of a wet paper bag.  The salut is not warranted as he/she does not have a commission, plain and simple.  What should e do ? walk around and stop every officer cadet and ask " hey you...what job do you do ?"

The salute is not for the CoC......


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## vonGarvin (19 Apr 2005)

First of all, NEVER salute an officer cadet (unless so ordered by someone OTHER than the officer cadet, of course) ;D
Proper forms of address include "Mister y" (where "y" = the gentleman's family name) or "Miss x" (where x = the lady's family name)
Incidentally, addressing 2Lt's and Lt's as Mister "X" or Miss "Y" are also appropriate.  It is NOT appropriate, however, to address a Captain or higher rank as "mister".
As an officer who is not a commanding officer, I never address an RSM as "RSM", it is as "Mr X".  The logic being that he is the CO's RSM (and the NCM's as well, who also call him sir or RSM or whatever).  Anyway, I've digressed, and must now eat lest I smoke

:evil:


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## MC (19 Apr 2005)

OCdts are sometimes treated just as harshly as new privates.. at the local reserve engineering corps, when I was looking into joining, I was told to expect to be down in the dirt with the rest of the men during exercises... which is not why I declined btw  Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.

regards,


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## MC (19 Apr 2005)

I guess you read the expression less, hmm.. "figuratively" than I intended it to be... I'm not really looking for a desk job, you know. A little eager to bash the newbie, are we?


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## pbi (21 Apr 2005)

> which is not why I declined btw  Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.



How do you figure that being in the Regular Army would give you that as opposed to being a full time student and a Res officer? 

Cheers.


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## Redeye (21 Apr 2005)

MC said:
			
		

> OCdts are sometimes treated just as harshly as new privates.. at the local reserve engineering corps, when I was looking into joining, I was told to expect to be down in the dirt with the rest of the men during exercises... which is not why I declined btw  Just decided I'd rather go regular to have more time for school during the year.
> 
> regards,



That isn't harsh, that's good training.  How can one be a leader without understanding what those being led are expected to do?!  I've spent a few exercises with my PRes unit as "Number 1 rifleman Alpha Team" just being a soldier to become proficient at it.  You can't lead men (or women) who think you're just a leader to get out of hard work.  No leader should ask a subordinate to do anything they would not do themselves.


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## MC (21 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> How do you figure that being in the Regular Army would give you that as opposed to being a full time student and a Res officer?
> 
> Cheers.



hey, 

In the regular program, the army pays for your studies and during the summer you recieve training. After recieving your diploma, you serve for the same amount of time that you were sponsored for. I didn't hear about any such program for the reserves; you work both during the school year and summers but don't have any obligation. I know it isn't 40 hours a week or anything, but wanting to end up in the regulars anyway I figured it would be better for me to go that route.


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## MC (21 Apr 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> That isn't harsh, that's good training.  How can one be a leader without understanding what those being led are expected to do?!  I've spent a few exercises with my PRes unit as "Number 1 rifleman Alpha Team" just being a soldier to become proficient at it.  You can't lead men (or women) who think you're just a leader to get out of hard work.  No leader should ask a subordinate to do anything they would not do themselves.



Lesson taken, and I completely agree with you... I think during the second phase for engineering you spent most of the summer learning and doing what every person in the regiment has to do during exercices. 

I'd just like to add, since it obviously came out wrong, that I just wanted to say that I was told ocdts were to expect to recieve a lot of shit (rightfully so)... didn't mean to imply I figured I'd be picking flowers and yelling at people from a high chair during exercices 

cheers


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## NavalGent (21 Apr 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> I was propounding it as a logical issue rather than an actual problem (i.e. that I have a sudden urge to salute my NCM-reservist friends when they're out of uniform).


You've got to get those sudden urges under control, bud.


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## Strike (21 Apr 2005)

Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?  Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Apr 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?   Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.



It usually depends on the Brow Staff that is on and where you are at in the world.


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## Guardian (22 Apr 2005)

My buddy on Freddie took me and our ladies aboard for a visit a couple months back... When we left, the duty officer (a Lt(N)) saluted our group as we left. He outranked us both.

I'd like to think it was because he recognized the Army's inherent superiority and was saluting me as some act of cross-service obeisance....  ;D

However, my buddy told me that it was our ladies that it was intended for. Too bad. :-\


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## Edward Campbell (22 Apr 2005)

It used to be common courtesy, in the army, to salute ladies â â€œ normally upon being introduced.

I saw it done recently, in 2000, at a major formal ball, by a retired general officer, in uniform (he held an honorary appointment).  Just outside the lavish venue for the ball he met two soldiers, in regimental scarlets, and their ladies (ball gowns, of course); the soldiers saluted, the general stopped and introduced himself, the soldiers introduced their wives/girlfriends, a few pleasantries were exchanged; the general smiled, shook hands, saluted, to each lady in turn, and went on his way.  Very proper.


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## SeanNewman (22 Apr 2005)

aesop081,

I read your profile, and I see that you have some SI, but it doesn't list your MOC.

The rule is clear in stating that you salute the commission, not the rank, but we are not talking CF-wide.

If an OCdt platoon commander in 3 RCR is walking around in Trenton, of course he's not going to be saluted.  In the same manner, troops aren't going to be in a big hurry to salute an AF OCdt, either.

You don't need to go around asking what a person's posting is in battalion life, because there are less than a dozen pl comds.  Soldiers in his platoon are going to know he's the pl comd, and they are going to be the ones saluting him.


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## aesop081 (22 Apr 2005)

SeanNewman said:
			
		

> aesop081,
> 
> I read your profile, and I see that you have some SI, but it doesn't list your MOC.
> 
> ...



Fair enough...i guess i was making the "by the book" point but i can see where yo are coming from.

By the way, my username pretty much states what MOC i am...i also spent 11 years a a combat engineer.


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## Neill McKay (22 Apr 2005)

Strike said:
			
		

> Do civilian women still get saluted on the Quarter Deck when they board ship?   Seems to me this would also fall into this argument of saluting an officer cadet since neither has a commission.



The drill manual provides for saluting civilians.


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## Zoomie (23 Apr 2005)

Sorry Sean, I still don't buy it...

An OCdt who is PlComd or Troop Leader does not deserve or beget a salute any more than a Sgt/WO doing the same job.  Officer Cadets are not CF Officers nor are they NCMs, they are a breed in their own that exist in limbo until Phase 4 is complete or MOC qualified.  This is CF wide and irregardless of the branch of the military.  We have Officer Cadets in the Airforce which fly aircraft and fulfill Duty Operations Positions (both of which are Commissioned Officer's jobs) - at no time are any of these fine people saluted.  I can safely assure you that these jobs are just as demanding and skill intensive as the positions you mentioned earlier.

Food for thought


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## Bartok5 (23 Apr 2005)

Well, call me harsh but in my view OCdts are much like children within the military heirarchy.   I say this in the context that they ought to be "seen but not heard".   Ooohhh - harsh words, eh?   But what do I really mean by this?   

Well, it is quite simple.   In a perfect world, OCdts would be entirely confined to the training system.   As they OUGHT to be.   That is why they are Officer CADETS.   And I might add that I fully include any non-Classification-trained 2Lts within this same grouping.   Not to get into the rather messy a "degree does not an officer make", but I would hope we can all agree that a 2Lt lacking full classification training in his/her MOC is not yet ready to command soldiers.   Such 2Lts are merely OCdts with a degree.   

Be they RMC types with "summer soldier phase training" during the "happy months", or on the somewhat more rigorous DEO/"Degree-lacking" trainee program where they actually have to soldier through the "off-season months".   Either way, at the end of the day, the "ideal" officer candidate completes his/her classification training and is not only commissioned but CLASSIFICATION QUALIFIED before being foisted upon actual troops.   

Yes, I know that this does not always happen, and we frequently end up with "Phase 3" (sorry, the current DP-speak equivalent escapes me) OCdts posted to operational units in the expectation that they will "learn good stuff" until it is time to return to CTC and finish their basic training.   This lamentable practice of sending partially-formed officers to operational units acheives nothing good for any party concerned.   Quite frankly, it is invariably a disaster for both the trainee and the trained soldiers/non-commissioned leaders that he/she is foisted upon.   It is a horribly awkward and near-utterly useless practice.   "Contact training" is a farce.   Nobody wins.

I've seen it, I've endured it at various "stations of the cross" during battalion duty (including rifle company command), and I am here to tell you that "contact training" is a bad idea.   Regular Army soldiers deserve qualified leadership.   They are not a "petri dish" for the further cultivation of half-formed officers who may or may not make the grade during the last hurdle of their classification training.   And it is high time that we stopped treating our soldiers as such.   Their unwitting contract as part of the officer professional development process does not start until the young officer is imposed upon them with the full course of professional development training.   That alone, is sufficient burden upon our non-commissioned ranks.   We need not stress their role further by subjecting them to the whims of half-formed "wannabe" officers who have yet to make the grade.   That is for the training system to sort out.   It is NOT the responsibility nor the purview of our soldiers and NCOs.   

All of that to say, having been a (Res F) Sr NCO transferring to the Reg F, it did me a world of irreplacable good spending the better part of 2 years making the transition to Reg F officer under the professional tutelage of numerous Sr NCOs and (later) officers before I received my first battalion posting.   I shudder to think how I would have felt (and been received) had I been thrust unprepared into the harsh reality of a line battalion with anything less than the full basic Phase 4 qualification.   Lord knows, I've seen enough non-Phase 4-qualified OCdts and 2Lts who are between "school years" suddenly "gifted" to battalions on the premise that they are Phase 3 "qualified dismounted Pl Comds" awaiting training.   By and large, it wasn't pretty at all....   

As I said at the outset - OCdts are meant to be "invisible".   All things being equal, the best possible course of events is that they remain within the cloistered "training system" until they are fully qualified within their applicable classification.   No offence, but this is the environment in which they can freely debate who ought to be saluting who, who has a day more "seniority", etc.   It all seems awfully important at the time, which is probably is.   The fact however, is that such pedantic issues have zero place within the real world.   These things have long been sorted out within the "real" Army/Navy/Airforce.  This may come as a bit of a disappointing surprise, but we don't waste a whole lot of time debating such trivial matters.... 

I will fully admit that this is merely my experience-based opinion, but I firmly believe that a "keep 'em separated" approach works to the benefit of all concerned.   I can name at least a half-dozen OCdt and 2Lt "casualties" of premature judgement by real-world soldiers.   Such situations are not pretty, nor are they necessary.   For all of their "chomping at the bit" and unbridled self-confidence (often completely unwarranted), partially-trained officers need to be protected from themselves.   And the best method of doing so is to keep them firmly within the nuturing embrace of the training system until such time as they are fully classification trained.

Just my $.02, as someone who has seen both sides of the situation.   At the end of the day, odds are that a half-formed officer will do far more harm to him/herself and the affected soldiers than anything positive.   OJT is for static trades, not for positions which entail life/death leadership and associated technical competence. 

Keep the OCdts and untrained 2Lts in school where they belong and where they can be suitably developed.   Their time in the "big leagues" will come soon enough.....trust me

As always, just my $.02


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## Glorified Ape (23 Apr 2005)

Yielding to experience, I'd have to go with Mark C. 

I don't have any OJT but I can tell you that I have absolutely no desire to work in a unit until I'm qualified and commissioned. I'd like to be as little of a burden as possible on the NCO's who'll have to hold my hand for the first little while when I'm posted and that's when I'm actually qualified and commissioned. I can't imagine the pain in the a-- it must be to have to hold an unqualified, non-commissioned Ocdt's hand.


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## tree hugger (23 Apr 2005)

Mark C said:
			
		

> OJT is for static trades, not for positions which entail life/death leadership and associated technical competence.
> 
> Keep the OCdtsand untrained 2Lts in school where they belong and where they can be suitably developed.



So to clear up your POV:
- some 2Lts/OCdts can do OJT depending on their trade, the weather or your approval...
- the other 2Lts and Ocdts should be held in the nursery/PAT tp until completely educated and qualified.  

I think the trick might be giving these "children" (FYI I'm 27), appropriate OJT for their qualifications.  I can assure you Marc, I am making my self useful and not a burden to the Snr NCO's.


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## Guardian (23 Apr 2005)

I agree that a Ph 3 qualified 2Lt isn't ready to command Reg F troops...

However, keeping them segregated from the "real world" during the almost two years it takes to train them (4 for RMC) is not going to help matters any.

The biggest problem I've seen with RMC graduates (and before all the current cadets on the board start climbing all over me, I'm one myself) is their exposure to real soldiers. 

Simply put, the average RMC cadet has regular contact with perhaps 2 or 3 sergeants / warrants during the eight months they're at the college during the year, and during the summers perhaps 5 or 6 more who are DS on their courses. By the time they graduate and land in a real unit, they haven't been exposed in any meaningful way to any soldier under the rank of sergeant... and the few sergeants-and-above they have known were all DS in training positions, which is a different example to follow than an NCO in a regimental environment. 

Consequently, these new 2Lts have no concept of what life is like for the average soldier, day by day, in a regimental context. They don't have a feel for their concerns, their lifestyle, the problems they face on the job...

As for the DEOs, they tend to be punted to holding troops until they're finished Ph 4, and so aren't that much better.

The Arty School, a couple years back, started sending CAP / Ph 2 qualified 2Lts and OCdts out to the field on exercise with W Bty as "gun bunnies." They would work a four-or-five day exercise, two or three times a month, as members of gun detachments - one or two untrained officers per det - under the tender supervision of a sergeant or MBdr. That exposure to the soldiers, in my limited and humble experience, was priceless. You have a chance to work with the soldiers, doing their job, learning what life is like for them out on the gun line - and you have an opportunity to win their respect on their terms. 

And when these officers hit Ph 3 and Ph 4, the knowledge accumulated pays off. They have an instinctive feel for the rhythm of gun line operations, a basic grasp of fire discipline from the gunners' perspective (awfully handy knowing how your orders from the CP will be received by the guys on the other end), and, importantly, an empathy with your soldiers who carry out your fire orders. I always tried to be quick to send "guns rest" when I knew things were going to take a while - because I remembered freezing my rear off on a gun as the CPO and Tech WO tried to sort something out in the box...

In summary, maybe they're not ready for command... but in the long run, the troops will probably be better off if the officers get as much exposure to soldiers during their training as possible. Segregation will only lead to prima donnas....


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## tree hugger (23 Apr 2005)

Very well said.


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## Infanteer (23 Apr 2005)

Guardian said:
			
		

> I agree that a Ph 3 qualified 2Lt isn't ready to command Reg F troops...



Is this true though?

I know Reserve Officers without Phase IV who commanded Platoons overseas.

Is Phase IV neccessary if an Officer is heading to a Light Battalion?


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Apr 2005)

Mark C-

I see your point of view, but am not sure that I fully agree, based on my own personal experience.

I used to be an Artillery Officer.  in 1989, between Ph 3 and Ph 4, I was given a 3 month opportunity to OJT at 119 AD Bty in Chatham as an OCdt.  I was given to one of the Troop Commanders as an understudy, to watch and learn. However, without much warning, that TC was loaded on CF Staff School and left for Toronto.  Rather than make the TSM the acting TC, the BC decided to give my an opportunity to act as TC.  The TSM, who I'm certain was under very strict instructions not to let me really fall on my face, treated me as the troop commander (ie- he made me make rhe decisions on troop matters, after carefully laying out the options and implications for me).  We only went to the field once- it was a basic winter warfare ex, so I did not need to know the technical side of Air Defence that I had not yet learned, so once again, I "commanded" my Troop.  The MBdrs and Gunners treated me with respect and I hope that I reciprocated.

I learned more from that 3 months than at almost any other other time in my career.  I learned to trust the advice of NCOs.  I learned that respect is a two-way street between soldiers and officers and I gained alot of confidence.  I think part of the reason that it worked in my case is that, at the time, to be a TSM in the Artillery, one had to be Assistant-Instructor-in-Gunnery qualified.  Training officers was just a natural part of the TSM's job.

This all being said, I agree that this should not be a normal part of a Cbt Arms Officer's Training as the units are indeed very busy.  But, if the situation arises, I think that it is in everyones interest treat the OCdt professionally and help him/her to learn.

Cheers.


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## elscotto937 (24 Apr 2005)

Mark C,
 Although your point is very well stated, I don't think that I agree. What is the difference between an OCdt phase 3 qualified and an OCdt Phase 4. A couple of skill sets added, a couple of months experience and a nice parade. That same officer must still learn all the dealing with soldiers that is required, the managing of soldiers' careers and the officer Sr NCO relationship when they arrive at the unit. They still must be taught their job by WO and Sgts and the must be mentored by other officers. I don't advocate that OCdts be taken from Basic and put into units, however, later in training, this exposure, in my experience has worked well. Mark, I'm surprised that you has such bad experiences, what this specifically while you had your Coy?


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## GO!!! (25 Apr 2005)

I agree that the wee Ocdts should be separated from the real Bns until their training is complete.

The X reasons for this are:

1)We have used them as EN force, C6 ammo mules, signallers and photocopy makers, and other than getting yelled at and shat upon by everyone from MCpl up, they were simply "there", and were all more than happy to leave when the time came. One of them even attempted some sweet payback when he became a Pl Comd. 

2) Most of the powers that be are confused as to the level of trg that these guys have - One WO would'nt give one a rifle, while one of his peers was doing a Captains job. 

3) As with anything else, in life or the army, do it all the way or not at all. OJT is not a good idea for Infantry officers - they are dead weight and not that useful, in light of the fact that we dont just train for fun. We are usually training for a reason, and some RMC 23 year old with no practical experience is just another mouth to feed and water when we're busy.

I know this sounds a little harsh, but it's true. 

One of the real weaknesses in our young officers is their "leadership presence", many of them do not really inspire their men anymore. Maybe they should use this spare time at Toastmasters or a similar venue - just a  thought....


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## Infanteer (25 Apr 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> One of the real weaknesses in our young officers is their "leadership presence", many of them do not really inspire their men anymore. Maybe they should use this spare time at Toastmasters or a similar venue - just a   thought....



Now that was funny - I can imagine the Adj getting all the new Officers to practice reciting lines from Shakespere's _Henry V_....


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## Guardian (25 Apr 2005)

But how are they going to inspire their troops if they have had no exposure to real soldiers?

If you treat anyone - OCdt, 2Lt, or Pte (untrained) like dead weight and a waste of rations, you're not going to build a competent leader. When they finally do get back to the Regt, they'll be under the impression that the Army is really a "screw everyone else" club, and they'll act as they've been taught. It's no excuse for those small-minded individuals who arrive at the Regt, get a Tp / PL and decide, "screw the troops," but if you treat anyone as a not-really-necessary evil, it's bound to come back...

Maybe get them to do motivational speeches at Toastmasters - imagine some wet-behind-the-ears PL Comd arriving at the Regt and motivating his troops with a perfect rendition of the "Braveheart" speech......

"....Wha' wull ye do without freedom?...."   ;D


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## SeanNewman (25 Apr 2005)

This has became very long-winded, and can be cleared up in much less words:

By the book, as per the rules:

No you would not salute them, as they do not have a commission. You would be in the "right" to not salute them.

Real world:

It exists like an asterisk to the rule.   There is a glitch in the CF matrix, because an OCdt (knows how to command a dismounted platoon) can exist with much more training than a 2Lt (still learning tripods).

Even in RARE cases where an OCdt could be a Pl Comd under OJT circumstances, a soldier MAY salute them as to show respect for their position, but they are in no way obligated to do so.


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## MG34 (25 Apr 2005)

They should not be saluted under any circumatance as they do not hold a Commision.The proper term to address them is Mr. of Miss/Mrs..I agree fully with Mark C's comments the BNs are not prep schools for OCdts,they are not qualified to lead troops,therefore they should not be placed in a command position withing a Bn.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Apr 2005)

Unless, of course, if a Commanding Officer puts them in a command position, and directs that compliments will be paid.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Apr 2005)

Quote,
_Unless, of course, if a Commanding Officer puts them in a command position, and directs that compliments will be paid._

...just curious, if the CO can do this, then could he put a Sgt. in that position and order "compliments" to be paid?
Since "by the book" neither holds a commission.


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## SeanNewman (25 Apr 2005)

Wrong.

An OCdt with Ph3 is technically (although not officially) qualified to lead troops.  Regardless if he has to wait until after Ph4 to get his capbadge or commission, he *is* able to lead troops, if given the go-ahead by the CO.

In the same instance, a Sgt may fill the spot of pl comd if he has completed his Infantry 6Bs, where he is tested and qualified as an able pl comd.

Do not confuse a degreed OCdt sans-training with an OCdt without a degree, but having lead a pl.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Apr 2005)

That didn't answer the compliment question though, since neither is commissioned, yet Mr O'Leary has stated unless the CO orders it thus.


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## IPC10 (25 Apr 2005)

This might be a bit of a moot point, as my understanding is that the new system once the candidate arrives in Gagetown he/she/it takes CAP (Common Army Phase) followed by DP 1.1 then DP 1.2.  While they seem similar as DP 1.1 focuses on dismounted TTPs and DP 1.2 focuses on mechanized TTP there are several POs (patrolling for example) that are not completed until the end of DP 1.2.  

So unlike the old Phase III, upon completion of DP 1.1 the candidate's MOC is still 23U (as in untrained).  

(NOTE:  this is my understanding at this point in time.  We also pronounce the courses as DP one point one and DP one point two - so you can say it out loud in the heads at night ala Full Metal Jacket)


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## SeanNewman (28 Apr 2005)

The new all-inclusive Ph3 and Ph4 system is as of 2005.  2004 was that last year where the course files were kept separate, that is to say, even if you were at PRB-level on Ph3, if you pulled out a pass, you start with a fresh file for Ph4.

Even before that though, they dropped the full-qualification for Ph3 around 2001.  Before that, once you passed Ph3, you actually got badged.

So,
XXXX-2001:  Pass Ph3 = qualified light pl comd.  Pass Ph4 = fully qualified.
2001-2004:  Pass Ph3 = qualified but not badged.  Pass Ph4 = fully qualified.
2005-XXXX:  Pass Ph3(DP1) = 1/2 done the overall course, and not qualified until end LAV trg.


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## elscotto937 (28 Apr 2005)

I don't remember the phase 3 Inf Regular guys getting badged until after phase 4, prior to 2001. They may have known where they were going, but then again I can't speak on anything prior to 1993 or after 2000.


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## GO!!! (29 Apr 2005)

SeanNewman said:
			
		

> Wrong.
> 
> In the same instance, a Sgt may fill the spot of pl comd if he has completed his Infantry 6Bs, where he is tested and qualified as an able pl comd.



Not to play devils advocate too much - but if any good Sgt can do an officers job - why do we need officers at all?


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## Infanteer (29 Apr 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Not to play devils advocate too much - but if any good Sgt can do an officers job - why do we need officers at all?



Well, that's a pretty weak devil's advocation that makes alot of assumptions about what Officers do and if most Sergeants are qualified to take on a majority of these tasks.  One could just as easily flip the argument around and say that it is easier to develop an Officer to command a platoon in 2 years then it is a Warrant in 10-15.

Both the NCO and the Officer Corps have important parts to play in a professional military force.


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## pbi (30 Apr 2005)

Scott937 said:
			
		

> I don't remember the phase 3 Inf Regular guys getting badged until after phase 4, prior to 2001. They may have known where they were going, but then again I can't speak on anything prior to 1993 or after 2000.



 I did all four phases (incl BOTC Chilliwack) between Sep 1982 and Aug 1983. At the end of Phase IV we OCTP, OCTP(M) , DEO and CFR guys were assigned and badged: the RMC guys already had their badges and affiliations by the end of Phase III.

Cheers


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## Edward Campbell (30 Apr 2005)

Forty plus years ago we, serving soldiers, kept our cap badges/affiliations IF:

"¢	We had applied to stay in our previous regiment/corps; and

"¢	Our regiment/corps accepted us - not a sure thing.  Some corps - like Enginees, if I recall, were not even open to non-degree officers.

My recollection - and I may be wrong - was that we were commissioned after Phase III and before the (common to all corps) Young Officers' Tactics Course and Phase IV.

My recollection - equally potentially faulty - is that ROTP did a 'tour' prior to 1st year RMC/university then 1st, 2nd and 3rd phases at the ends of 1st, 2nd and 3rd years and they, too, were commissioned - on graduation - just prior to YOTC.

Of course the earth was still cooling when all that happened; and we wore fuzzy woolen battle dress, ankle boots and putties, too.


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## Bartok5 (1 May 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> I did all four phases (incl BOTC Chilliwack) between Sep 1982 and Aug 1983. At the end of Phase IV we OCTP, OCTP(M) , DEO and CFR guys were assigned and badged



The same process applied to officer trainees during my time within the system from 1986-88.  The DEO guys were commissioned as 2Lts following BOTC, however they were not badged until completion of Phase 4 Infantry.  The RMC types joined us for Phase 4 during the summer months and IIRC were not yet regimentally badged.  There was no such thing as "contact training".  

Unless I am mistaken, the notion of sending Ph 3 qualified OCdts for "contact training" with operational units was purely a function of the reduced officer enrolment and training throughput during the early to late 1990s.  The lack of a sufficient quantity of officer candidates to conduct back-to-back phase training during the non-summer months left the reduced number of non-RMC officer candidates in "training limbo" for up to 6 months  while awaiting the next scheduled Phase 4 course.  To my understanding, this was the sole impetus for implementing "contact training".  The notion being that it was better for the Phase 3 qualified infantry OCdt to "mark time" within a line battalion rather than in the training system, in the expectation that such exposure would be of developmental benefit.  

I have already posted my views regarding the largely negative results of contact training when you take the wider view of comparing the dubious "benefits" accrued by a partially-trained infantry officer aspirant against the deleterious impact that such an arrangement typically has upon the soldiers whom he/she is inflicted upon.  I won't belabour the point again other than to state that those who suggest infantry OCdts with Phase 3 are "qualified" to lead genuine soldiers are wrong.  This was the case even before the latest version of infantry officer training rendered arguments in favour of post-Phase 3 contact training moot.  Phase 4 has always been considered an integral and essential component of the infantry officer basic qualification.  It is/was not, nor has it ever been considered a "nice to have" nor a "finishing" course for Regular Force infantry officers.  Were that the case, it would not have been mandatory qualification training which inevitably resulted in the further elimination of unsuitable infantry officer candidates.  Phase 4 has always been about much more than "mech" training.  As was the case in the past, those additional 10 weeks of training impart a great deal of the fundamental knowledge and skills required by infantry officers prior to commencing regimental duty.  Equally important is the fact that Phase 4 provides critical experience-based reinforcement of the elementary knowledge/skills which were introduced (but not refined) during Phases 2 and 3.  The ability to effectively and efficiently apply the combat estimate process in developing viable solutions to tactical problems (eg. military decision-making skills) is merely one critical skill enhanced during Phase 4.  The fact that Phase 4 candidates are instructed, mentored and assessed by officers rather than NCOs (who have fulfilled the "hands-on" developmental role up to that point), is also key.  This increasingly intimate exposure to the officer instructors provides the Phase 4 candidates with insight into their forthcoming duties which has been lacking to that point.  I could provide numerous other reasons why the Phase 4 qualification is essential (not merely desirable) for infantry officer candidates prior to joining Reg F units and leading actual soldiers, but I will leave it at that.  "MG34's" previous comments regarding the inadvisability of "contact training" for officer candidates are typical of the feedback that I have received over the years from other highly capable and respected NCOs.  That alone should be enough to convince those currently in favour of this "stop-gap" practice that it is ill-advised for a host of reasons.

I won't speak to the Res F officer development system, as I am no longer familiar with their specific qualification requirements.  I will simply note that the past practice of commissioning Phase 3 Infantry graduates and deeming them "qualified" to lead Res F dismounted platoons was based on a variety of factors;  most of which had nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of whether or not those officers were adequately trained/prepared to assume their duties.  IMHO, issues such as "Train to Need", training costs, the time/commitment required for candidates to obtain a basic qualification, the perception that lesser training standards would suffice for the Res F, etc, were the overriding considerations.  Whether these issues continue to drive the Res F infantry officer qualification and promotion system is not clear to me.  

What I can tell you is that the Phase 3 Infantry qualification simply does NOT suffice for the command of Reg F soldiers.  Particularly not in light of the increasingly complex operations we are collectively required to undertake.  Partially-formed officer aspirants are a weak link and we simply cannot afford to accommodate them during unit training events or on operations.  At the end of the day, the average Phase 3 qualified infantry officer candidate simply does not possess the baseline level of training necessary to satisfactorily command Reg F soldiers within a battalion.  The suggestion that these "personnel awaiting training" are "qualified" as dismounted platoon commanders is utterly fallacious.  Their basic classification training is incomplete and the training system has not yet determined whether they have the full range of knowledge, skills and personal attributes required to command Reg F infantry in any type of operation - be it mechanized or light.  

I would humbly suggest that the ultimate consideration here is the welfare of our soldiers.  They deserve the best possible leadership that the commissioned ranks can provided.  As a MINIMUM that automatically entails (in my admittedly simple mind) fully-QUALIFIED leadership.  As "MG34" so succinctly stated, our line units and the soldiers serving within them are not "petri dishes" for the informal development of partially-trained officer aspirants.  The "developmental contract" between our non-commissioned and commissioned members begins when the infantry officer arrives at the unit fully qualified by the training and selection system.  

I can't speak to other officer classifications and what they should or should not do in terms of informal officer candidate training/exposure.  I know for a fact that the Int Branch seems to have no problem placing an OCdt under the direct tutelage of a senior Int WO while the former is awaiting basic classification training.  Indeed, such "temp placements" routinely occur at the Tac Sch and we are happy to accommodate.  The key distinction is that this arrangement results in a direct "one on one" mentoring relationship wherein the OCdt has no subordinates.  I can see the potential benefits of such an arrangement, and this sort of "technical" contact training within a static unit makes apparent sense.  At the opposite end of the spectrum however, to place half-formed infantry officer candidates in command of platoons of highly-trained Reg F NCMs is patently inadvisable for a whole host of reasons.  
     
As always, just my $.02   

Mark C


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 May 2005)

Good post, Mark. Thanks


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## 291er_sigdev (2 May 2005)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> I always based my ettiquete off the drill manual, which doesn't even mention officer cadets, but does say that besides the queen &al. commissioned officers are the only ones to be saluted.
> 
> At my sea cadet unit, we teach the cadets to salute ncdts, but I always hated it, only receiving the salute when my DCPO reported to me on parade.  (I'm an awful stickler & will march with my arms breast-pocket high until I finish BOTP.)
> 
> ...



Many levels of Orders..

Unit Standing Orders are the lowest form of orders, QR&O's are the top level, then CFAO's..

If you want to be a barracks room lawyer then you can get charged and then fight it and probably win.. BUT and this is the BIGGEST but.. your ass is now grass as far as the unit is concerned.. On second thought, the order is a legal order not prohibitted by the NDA or the Criminal Code.. you may lose.. 

Personally I would follow the order.. Pleading ignorance of Standing Orders is NOT an excuse..


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## Disenchantedsailor (7 Apr 2007)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> I always based my ettiquete off the drill manual, which doesn't even mention officer cadets, but does say that besides the queen &al. commissioned officers are the only ones to be saluted.
> 
> At my sea cadet unit, we teach the cadets to salute ncdts, but I always hated it, only receiving the salute when my DCPO reported to me on parade.  (I'm an awful stickler & will march with my arms breast-pocket high until I finish BOTP.)
> 
> ...



Hate beating a dead thread but need to point out a wee bit of clarification here,

the CF Manual states that all NCMS shall pay compliments to ALL OFFICERS (not it does not say anything about commision)

NDA defines officers as  officer" means 

(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,

(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and

(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;


The QR&O's define officer as 

"officer" means


(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,


(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and


(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;


so based on the letter of my references is the CO's direction contrary to instructions or right on the money.


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## 284_226 (7 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> Hate beating a dead thread but need to point out a wee bit of clarification here,
> 
> the CF Manual states that all NCMS shall pay compliments to ALL OFFICERS (not it does not say anything about commision)



Actually, if you check CFP201 Section 2, it says:



> 3.  In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; *and commissioned officers.*
> {...}
> 10.  Non-commissioned members shall salute *all commissioned officers*.


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## Disenchantedsailor (9 Apr 2007)

quick question here,

exaclty how does an Ocdt address a MWO/CWO, I would think not as Sir as NCM's are required but by rank and name then? (or Mr in the case of a CWO) as for the Navy types its easy Chief is the accepted form from below and above.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> quick question here,
> 
> exaclty how does an Ocdt address a MWO/CWO, I would think not as Sir as NCM's are required but by rank and name then? (or Mr in the case of a CWO) as for the Navy types its easy Chief is the accepted form from below and above.



For MWO`s and up Sir is fine.


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## Gunner (9 Apr 2007)

OCdt's don't refer to MWOs/CWOs as Sir. Generally it would be by their position (CSM/RSM) or by their rank.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Apr 2007)

Gunner said:
			
		

> OCdt's don't refer to MWOs/CWOs as Sir. Generally it would be by their position (CSM/RSM) or by their rank.



Thx Gunner I wasn't too sure but I thought Sir would be acceptable.


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## Gunner (9 Apr 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Thx Gunner I wasn't too sure but I thought Sir would be acceptable.



Nfld Sapper - absolutely not.


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## big_johnson1 (9 Apr 2007)

It's one of those mistakes you'll only make once.  ;D


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## Disenchantedsailor (10 Apr 2007)

Hence the reason for asking, don't particulary feel like a trip to the dentist, the Branch CWO may have a broken collarbone but he is a pathfinder after all


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## big_johnson1 (10 Apr 2007)

Just out of curiosity, maybe the Navy members here can answer me this.. Is there a policy to salute Naval Cadets in Esquimalt? Maybe along the lines of the Gagetown rule that was mentioned earlier? I don't know if it's just because that little stripe on combats is hard to see and people decide it's better to be safe than sorry, but I find I get saluted fairly often around Dockyard.


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## 284_226 (10 Apr 2007)

Feral said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, maybe the Navy members here can answer me this.. Is there a policy to salute Naval Cadets in Esquimalt? Maybe along the lines of the Gagetown rule that was mentioned earlier? I don't know if it's just because that little stripe on combats is hard to see and people decide it's better to be safe than sorry, but I find I get saluted fairly often around Dockyard.



Unless all that is holy has changed since I left the Navy, I strongly doubt that the Navy would be the branch that would stray from the 201.  I would bet good money that it's merely the fact that they can't tell you from the Acting Subbies...


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## Disenchantedsailor (10 Apr 2007)

Most like myself do it out of a matter of courtesy there is no rule about it in Esquimalt in fact my unit standing orders state Ocdt's are not to be saluted, I have always gone with the theory if it walks like an officer, looks like an officer its better to play it safe and throw the high five just in case the sun gets in your eyes and you end up missing a commisioned type.


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## sigpig (10 Apr 2007)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Nfld Sapper - absolutely not.



Absolutely correct. Although on Ph II Inf we had a VanDoo SgtMaj tell us that, "I will call you Sir, and you will call me Sir. I won't mean it but you better!!"      The fun stuff that happens on course. 

Of course he was the same SgtMaj that addressed a coy of 2 anglo and 1 franco pls and in French told the francos that they were better than the anglos because they were VanDoos. Luckily we had some milcol guys who translated for us.


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## Sub_Guy (10 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> Most like myself do it out of a matter of courtesy there is no rule about it in Esquimalt in fact my unit standing orders state Ocdt's are not to be saluted, I have always gone with the theory if it walks like an officer, looks like an officer its better to play it safe and throw the high five just in case the sun gets in your eyes and you end up missing a commisioned type.



Cadets do not get saluted.  I think most who do salute them, do so because they don't know the difference.  I can see some army personnel having issues (rank + cadpat), but Naval Ocdts are easy to spot!


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## JesseWZ (10 Apr 2007)

Air Force are now easy to spot as well.


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## brihard (10 Apr 2007)

OK, here's one for you guys.

I'm currently teaching a ResF BMQ. We have about 52 candidates or so remaining, of whom one is an officer. He's DEO, with more degrees than most of the rest of my unit put together. He's got his commission as a 2Lt, but has not completed any courses yet. I as a corporal am instructing him and am an authority figure in his training He only just got promoted to 2Lt a couple of weeks ago, so this is a pretty new issue. Up til now I've been addressing him (politely) as 'Mr. _____'. With him having put up his bar, what if anything would change in how I should be addressing him, as a noncommissioned instructor to a commissioned candidate? I'm just curious what the 'official' answer is; concensus among the staff seems to be to continue calling him 'mister _____' and continuing on as we were, and noone's raised any fuss about it... But what do the regs say?


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## Disenchantedsailor (10 Apr 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Unless all that is holy has changed since I left the Navy, I strongly doubt that the Navy would be the branch that would stray from the 201.  I would bet good money that it's merely the fact that they can't tell you from the Acting Subbies...



Perhaps you havent seen the Navy on rememberance day, after so many years of shipboard drill the navy can't seem to tell the difference between the flight deck and the pavement (I can say this I'm still a sailor until the end of the week) for those of us that do proper drill on land its rather emberrassing, also I still get looked at wierd when I salute the officers in my unit when I enter thier office apparently thats no longer part of 201 either or at least in the minds of some


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## bison33 (10 Apr 2007)

You army and navy guys....sheesh....when we see a pinstripe, we usually introduce ourselves by our first name, ask them their first name and then call them by their first name.....also applies to 2nd Lt's, Lt's and Captains ;D


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## Quag (10 Apr 2007)

Brihard said:
			
		

> OK, here's one for you guys.
> 
> I'm currently teaching a ResF BMQ. We have about 52 candidates or so remaining, of whom one is an officer. He's DEO, with more degrees than most of the rest of my unit put together. He's got his commission as a 2Lt, but has not completed any courses yet. I as a corporal am instructing him and am an authority figure in his training He only just got promoted to 2Lt a couple of weeks ago, so this is a pretty new issue. Up til now I've been addressing him (politely) as 'Mr. _____'. With him having put up his bar, what if anything would change in how I should be addressing him, as a noncommissioned instructor to a commissioned candidate? I'm just curious what the 'official' answer is; concensus among the staff seems to be to continue calling him 'mister _____' and continuing on as we were, and noone's raised any fuss about it... But what do the regs say?



Mr. is fine up until Lt.  However, as has been previously stated, being respectful might be beneficial to you, as technically he already outranks you and will possibly be your boss shortly.


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## xFusilier (10 Apr 2007)

Any BMQ I've taught were we have had ladies or gentlemen as candidates, the course officer grabs them on day one and explains the facts of life to them (as well as the instructors for whom this is a new experience).    Generally referring to them as Mr/Ms/Mrs _____ has kept me out of the CSM's office.


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## cplcaldwell (10 Apr 2007)

Interesting twist on an old thread.

Going to Brihard's comment on having a 2Lt on a BMQ course. And extrapolating it a tad...

This has become problematic now that OR and Offr BMQ types are getting mixed up on these courses.

Just to be a bugger, what would the consensus be on how an (Instr) NCO would address a Maj BMQ candidate.

_Hint -  don't say it could never happen, certain members may be in such a situation _


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## Quag (10 Apr 2007)

As Sir, or Major______________(insert name).

How would a Major be taking BMQ?  Is it possible due to CFR's? IE. CWO CFR's?


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## cplcaldwell (11 Apr 2007)

Quag:

WRT to your last; 

ref para alfa : guidance is "Major____"

ref para bravo : PM inbound, wait over.


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## cplcaldwell (11 Apr 2007)

CSA105; 

Ref PM: 

Shot Over


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## JesseWZ (11 Apr 2007)

The Captains were treated as Course Candidates with us at CFLRS, however they were addressed as Sir but were not saluted. I never managed to see one get inspected though...


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## cplcaldwell (11 Apr 2007)

JM

OK


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## Disenchantedsailor (11 Apr 2007)

when you gents were Ocdts if a WO/NCO was to Salute you mistaking your rank would you return the salute and thank the individual and inform them the salute wasn't required?


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## JesseWZ (11 Apr 2007)

They will probably realise their own mistake shortly thereafter upon closer inspection of your rank. I don't think its a good idea to thank them (they didn't do anything for you to thank) but you should acknowledge them some way. 
A crisp Warrant! or something.


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## Big Foot (11 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> when you gents were Ocdts if a WO/NCO was to Salute you mistaking your rank would you return the salute and thank the individual and inform them the salute wasn't required?


Unless I am greatly mistaken, which is possible considering that I've been awake for 39 straight hours working on papers, the CF Drill Manual states that saluting OCdts is optional. From my experience, whenever I have been saluted by anyone, I return the salute and greet the individual who saluted me. I don't know why so many OCdts are so uptight about being saluted, it's going to happen sooner or later. Just relax and take the salute as any other officer would. Anyone think I'm way off base here?


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## Disenchantedsailor (11 Apr 2007)

It is not optional 201 states .... commisioned officers .... but it also states that all service personel recieving compliments shall acknowledge those compliments, it does not say the method they shall be acknowledged (a salute IMHO should be returned vice acknoledged it is representative of a bond of trust between proffesionals at arms) I'm just looking for advice from experienced pers, I have lots from the bottom going up but none from the middle looking down, not so much and uptight issue but a willingness to prepare


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## Big Foot (11 Apr 2007)

Alright, I stand corrected


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## dw (11 Apr 2007)

Having been an OCdt and 2Lt on course, I agree with the majority of opinions.  Officers on course are addressed by Mr.___ and not saluted.  From experience, 2Lt's who have completed leadership training may be addressed as "Sir."  I suspect that any officer who cannot accept this, and expects otherwise just after being enrolled, will be a problem later.


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## Disenchantedsailor (11 Apr 2007)

but thanks for all the feedback folks,


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## Sub_Guy (11 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> Perhaps you havent seen the Navy on rememberance day, after so many years of shipboard drill the navy can't seem to tell the difference between the flight deck and the pavement (I can say this I'm still a sailor until the end of the week) for those of us that do proper drill on land its rather emberrassing, also I still get looked at wierd when I salute the officers in my unit when I enter thier office apparently thats no longer part of 201 either or at least in the minds of some



Am I missing something? 
19. Buildings. Salutes are not given indoors in
either public or service buildings except on
parades, ceremonial occasions, in areas so
designated by commanders, or when entering or
leaving the office of an officer who should be paid
compliments by virtue of his rank or appointment.


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## Disenchantedsailor (11 Apr 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Am I missing something?
> 19. Buildings. Salutes are not given indoors in
> either public or service buildings except on
> parades, ceremonial occasions, in areas so
> ...



exactly my point one would think that a commanding officer would rate it wouldn't you


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## 284_226 (11 Apr 2007)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Am I missing something?
> 19. Buildings. Salutes are not given indoors in
> either public or service buildings except on
> parades, ceremonial occasions, in areas so
> ...



This, of course, presumes that the individual entering the office is forewarned that they'll be entering an office where a salute is expected -and- are wearing headdress.


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## Disenchantedsailor (11 Apr 2007)

agreed common sense must be the dictating factor, it would of course be common knowledge where your CO's office is and whether given the circumstances headress would be proper or not. Say you were going to the CO's office (were talking ashore here) and you knew you were in the range to be promoted you would wear your headress..... no?


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## 284_226 (11 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> agreed common sense must be the dictating factor, it would of course be common knowledge where your CO's office is and whether given the circumstances headress would be proper or not. Say you were going to the CO's office (were talking ashore here) and you knew you were in the range to be promoted you would wear your headress..... no?



I guess it would be up to the individual CO.  In my own experience, I've never had occasion to wear headdress into a CO's office, either aboard ship, ashore, or in the AF at the Wing.  I'm occasionally working on the Wing Comd's computers/Blackberry, and while I've been in his office, I've yet to see anyone else enter his office and salute.  I've yet to see anyone wearing headdress inside Wing HQ, for that matter...unless it's a photo op for a promotion, etc.

Army thing, maybe?


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Apr 2007)

Generally at training centres and the like, but you do generally wear headress into the CO's office for things like promotions (or when escorting an accused)


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## Adrian_888 (12 Apr 2007)

Funny thing, were i am, we seem to treat officer cadets as just another one of the guys (privates and easygoing corporals) and I have never seen anyone even say a thing.  If i really want to be polite to one of the officer cadets, i will normally address them as Mr "there name" and thats all fine and good.  I remember being told specifically not to salute them, have never heard of calling them sir.  Am i wrong?  ???


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## Disenchantedsailor (12 Apr 2007)

not neccessarily,

however it is important to remember that Ocdt's are Officers as defined by the act (note the absence of commisioned in the last staement) and there ia a time and a place, a while back when I was a sailor (still am for the next 48hrs) Idid and still do call my former DIVO (now arty) by his first name, he is a Captain, but only when the time and place are right, I would never dream of it in mixed company vthat said it is permissable to be less formal as the situation dictates


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## AmmoTech90 (12 Apr 2007)

Disenchantedsailor said:
			
		

> when you gents were Ocdts if a WO/NCO was to Salute you mistaking your rank would you return the salute and thank the individual and inform them the salute wasn't required?



Working at British unit I sometimes get saluted by people who only see the crown and don't notice the size (there is a Brit WO2 appointment that uses the same size as our WO but it is not very common so most think Major, especially Ptes).  I return the salute as a courtesy and explain that is not required, carry on and listen to the piss taking by their mates.


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## George Wallace (12 Apr 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I guess it would be up to the individual CO.  In my own experience, I've never had occasion to wear headdress into a CO's office, either aboard ship, ashore, or in the AF at the Wing.  I'm occasionally working on the Wing Comd's computers/Blackberry, and while I've been in his office, I've yet to see anyone else enter his office and salute.  I've yet to see anyone wearing headdress inside Wing HQ, for that matter...unless it's a photo op for a promotion, etc.
> 
> Army thing, maybe?



Without Headdress, one pays compliments by coming properly to Attention.  It is 'polite' to do so when entering an office, in the above cases.  

Usually in cases where one is constantly entering an office, like the CO's, it is proper to salute/pay compliments the first and last time you do so that day.  The remainder of the times in between, it is not necessary.


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## Rowshambow (12 Apr 2007)

One thing that I personally hate is when you salute an officer and they say "Thank you"! You do not need to thank me, it's part of my job to salute, so say something like good day or morning, afternoon whatever just don't thank me for doing my job!


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## x-grunt (13 Apr 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> One thing that I personally hate is when you salute an officer and they say "Thank you"! You do not need to thank me, it's part of my job to salute, so say something like good day or morning, afternoon whatever just don't thank me for doing my job!


When I was in before, I thought it was a bit selfish of an officer to just say thank you. Even worse if they didn't even really look at me. IMO, salutes are supposed to be _returned_ and the ncm is also saluted, a sign of mutual respect. To just say 'thank you' felt like my salute was taken but not returned. I prefered something like "good morning, Corporal." Not a big deal, but small things do count.


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 Apr 2007)

I agree with you there I think the "thank you" stems from the book calling the hand salute a compliment, and you thank those who give you compliments right, I look at a salute like this a greeting between professionals at arms recognizing a bond of trust that should never be broken


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## cplcaldwell (13 Apr 2007)

There's a couple of ways to look at it.

When one salutes one renders compliments to the Crown.

When the Commissioned member returns the compliment and says 'thank you' the member is responding on behalf of the Crown, not on behalf of his/her self.

_I think_ the compliment is one of those ancient rites we still have. As troops, recently descended from the armed rabbles of medieval times, we salute the Crown, with opened hand to indicate 'we will do no harm to you', the Crown in turn thanks us for our loyalty.

To me the salute, has become like some obscure greeting and/or rite of other ancient orders; it is part of the furniture of the trade. To that degree in _our_ culture it is _often_ simply a greeting between professionals. How many of us see the young Offr _or_ the OC and renders the compliment with a cheerful "G'morning sir", to receive likewise in return? A salute is then not a grovel( it's more like a _secret hand shake_ ; in that regard).

And woe betide the young subbie who thinks a salute from a nasty old man like me is a gratuitous personal compliment. It is a compliment to the Crown, a gesture of loyalty and a recognition of subordinated authority and often; "G'morning buds, wazzup?". 

That's why it's fun to salute Ocdt's sometimes they don't quite get all this obscurity and mystery..... >


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## medaid (13 Apr 2007)

I knew of the mysteries and obscurities of the secret handshakes   I hate saying 'thank you' tot hose who renders a salute it's quite um... I dont know. I always try and say 'good morning, _______' 'how are you?' and if it's someone I know 'what's up doc?'  ;D


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## TN2IC (13 Apr 2007)

Top of the morning to ya b'y...


Then see the reaction on their faces..


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 Apr 2007)

I tell you, recieved my first compliments today, it felt kinda wierd


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## medaid (13 Apr 2007)

Oh admit it you liked it  

I just remember when I first got my bar and I was standing around with a bunch of Cpl/Pte that I did my BMQ/SQ with and this Sgt came up to us and was smoking and joking. Good times had around by all, and then he went on and on and about junior officers, and how 'we' as Cpl/Ptes should be respectful but at the same time weary of things. Then he told us about the usual funnies about subbies and ocdts, all the while all my buddies were looking at me and smiling, while the Sgt was oblivious to what's happening. I was standing behind a buddy of mine with my arms crossed in front of me). So after all that, my buddy went 'Uh, so... Mr. XXXX what did you think about all that? Was it fairly accurate sir?' and the Sgt was like HUBBA?!   It was quite funny  He was a class act though, he just said 'Well, I hope you listened to what I had to say, and don't make the same mistakes.' or words to that effect  : I love crusty old NCMs they're the best.


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## Disenchantedsailor (14 Apr 2007)

of course I did, but it still felt wierd (I had to walk by the wardroom to get to work this morning as a killick)


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## Shamrock (14 Apr 2007)

Ref: A-AD-200-000/AG-000

11-2
FORMAL ADDRESS 
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma'am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma'am as applicable.

b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank or surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma'am as appropriate.

c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.

INFORMAL ADDRESS 
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.

11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (14 Apr 2007)

Thanks for the clarification there from the Regs. I find that today's society has leaked into our world where I hear people refering to senior NCOs and officers by their first names in a professional setting and it really rankles me. 
When I arrived in my section last year my predecessor (a LCDR) had constantly referred to the FAdmO (a CDR) as Mark. I found that all the Lt(N)s were doing the same, of course. I stopped one of them in a meeting one day and said "excuse me who is it you are referring to as Mark?" "Oh you know the FAdmO"....I said "I think you are referring to COMMANDER Watson." It was too subtle for them so I had to put out a TM the next day to the section to inform them of the military protocol and that I did not expect to ever hear them referring to senior officers or NCOs in our meetings again in any other than military terms...ie their rank and surname or their official position. Funnily enough I've noticed that a lot of other things are going a lot better with regard to discipline since this one amendment was made.

One "bee in my bonnet" with regard to saluting is people who salute your back and then get insulted that you can't see them or return the compliment. I watched a P2 salute the Base Commander's back on the jetty yesterday. Yep he's a Capt(N) but he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head and he was busy talking to the Mayor of Halifax and his entourage who were there for a ceremony with the Goose Bay. 

wrt OCdts; I was always taught that they did not carry the Queen's commission so therefore no salute. They are referred to as Mister or Ms. When spit out by a senior NCO in Chilliwack or Naden the Mister was never a compliment.  ;D


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## SupersonicMax (15 Apr 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> When I arrived in my section last year my predecessor (a LCDR) had constantly referred to the FAdmO (a CDR) as Mark. I found that all the Lt(N)s were doing the same, of course. I stopped one of them in a meeting one day and said "excuse me who is it you are referring to as Mark?" "Oh you know the FAdmO"....I said "I think you are referring to COMMANDER Watson." It was too subtle for them so I had to put out a TM the next day to the section to inform them of the military protocol and that I did not expect to ever hear them referring to senior officers or NCOs in our meetings again in any other than military terms...




I personnally don't see what's wrong with this.  There is a way to be polite and call people by their first name.  It just makes the atmosphere more relaxed and makes people more comfortable...  Now, in an operationnal situation that might be different.  

Max


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## kincanucks (15 Apr 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> One thing that I personally hate is when you salute an officer and they say "Thank you"! You do not need to thank me, it's part of my job to salute, so say something like good day or morning, afternoon whatever just don't thank me for doing my job!



_just don't thank me for doing my job!_ So when you are doing your "job" you don't need or deserve any thank yous?  Sounds screwed up to me.  Perhaps next time you salute an officer they should say F&$K you instead?  I am one of those officers who does say thank you and mean thank you.  Too many times I have seen soldiers trying to kill themselves to get out of making a simple effort of saluting and when someone does salute, I say thank you and add a good day.  When I was a NCM I appreciated the thank you I got from officers especially in the Navy where you more than often got guttural sounds from them.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Apr 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I personnally don't see what's wrong with this.  There is a way to be polite and call people by their first name.  It just makes the atmosphere more relaxed and makes people more comfortable...  Now, in an operationnal situation that might be different.
> Max



Being the low man on the totem pole you might find it makes things more comfortable for you, but I can assure you that not all those in between you and the highest rank are comfortable.[ and he/she is probably hoping someone closer to your 'level' would say something]


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## Disenchantedsailor (15 Apr 2007)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Being the low man on the totem pole you might find it makes things more comfortable for you, but I can assure you that not all those in between you and the highest rank are comfortable.[ and he/she is probably hoping someone closer to your 'level' would say something]


I have to agree with Bruce here, and I was a wee killick but a few days ago, and while I do see a place where given names can de used in a non detrimental manner it is not for a group setting. and it does make officers uncomfortable especially in a group setting, they don't want to look like a D#%& for correcting you in a group but they also don't want to lose face with thier superiors for allowing it to continue.


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## Rowshambow (15 Apr 2007)

well Kincanucks, you and I totally disagree. I think it is kinda pompous to thank me for saluting your commission! If I do an extremely well job at something than fine thank me, but would you thank me for showing up for work? really it's one in the same. I showed up I saluted, no need for a thank you! that's the problem, if you say thank you everytime it sounds fake (even though you might really mean it) and if you read my entire post you would have read that I would think "good morning" or an acknowledgemeant like that sounds better and might actually make someone think you care! not saying you don't!


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## medaid (15 Apr 2007)

I have always been taught since day one of being in Cadets, and day one on BMQ to never address anyone by their firstnames. I have thus never been comfortable in doing so. I see no problems in doing so out side of the uniform, and outside of work settings, but I have to agree with kincanucks in that there should be minimal to no addressing people by their first names. That being said, there are times where first names are appropriate. ie. when you are comforting a peer, subordinate when a tragedy happens. Other then that, first names are a no no.


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## Roy Harding (15 Apr 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> I have always been taught since day one of being in Cadets, and day one on BMQ to never address anyone by their firstnames. I have thus never been comfortable in doing so. I see no problems in doing so out side of the uniform, and outside of work settings, but I have to agree with kincanucks in that there should be minimal to no addressing people by their first names. That being said, there are times where first names are appropriate. ie. when you are comforting a peer, subordinate when a tragedy happens. Other then that, first names are a no no.



First names DOWN the COC works in a casual situation.  First names UP the COC DO NOT WORK, EVER (with the EXTREMELY rare exception, such as:  death of a comrade, death of a family member, etcetera - when one is attempting to give/receive extremely personal and poignant advice/commiserations).

When I was still serving, those under my command ALWAYS (even when having the occasional wobbly pop together) addressed me by rank/appointment - and I returned the respect.  When they were no longer under my command, and if we became friends, THEN a first name basis was comfortable for all.  I RARELY addressed my superiors by Christian name (even when given dispensation to do so) - they were, after all, my SUPERIORS, 24/7 - social situation or not.

Since I've been retired, my former subordinates who have become lifelong friends address me by Christian name - and comfortably so - I am, after all, no longer their "boss" - I'm just someone with whom they once served.  When I do occasionally run into a formerly despised superior or subordinate, they can continue to refer to me by the rank I earned.

I've been called a "hard-ass" for this mind-set - but I still seem to have managed to acquire some lifelong friends amongst my previous superiors and subordinates.  Whilst we had that superior/subordinate relationship, however, professionalism was ALWAYS foremost.

Disagree if you want - it worked for me - and it did NOT interfere with normal "human" interaction.


Roy


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## medaid (15 Apr 2007)

nope I agree with you  ;D


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## Roy Harding (15 Apr 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> nope I agree with you  ;D



As I with you - my post was meant to support your stated position - if you took it otherwise, I apologize.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Apr 2007)

Why are we still discussing this?? :


----------



## Roy Harding (15 Apr 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Why are we still discussing this?? :



Because it's there.


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## medaid (15 Apr 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> As I with you - my post was meant to support your stated position - if you took it otherwise, I apologize.



lol oh no! I was merely agreeing with your agreement with me . There's most definitely no need to apologize Roy.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (16 Apr 2007)

your BMQ instructors were wrong,

exactly how can you expect to sit in a shell scrape with someone if you don't even know thier first name (know your subordinates as you know yourself - principles of leadership stuff) not saying we should replace the method we address each other but for a bunch of Pte's not to know each other is just p#$% poor leadership on the part of your instructor.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Apr 2007)

You shouldn't be SITTING in a shell scrape.......especially with someone else. In a shell scrape, your buttons should be getting in the way.


----------



## medaid (16 Apr 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> your BMQ instructors were wrong,
> 
> exactly how can you expect to sit in a shell scrape with someone if you don't even know their first name (know your subordinates as you know yourself - principles of leadership stuff) not saying we should replace the method we address each other but for a bunch of Pte's not to know each other is just p#$% poor leadership on the part of your instructor.



I don't know how that's p#$% poor leader ship there ArtyNewbie. They taught the way you were supposed to address each other in the proper format, rank and last name. For your general wealth of information, I had F*&#ing brilliant instructors, whom I would follow anywhere!!  :threat: Please don't presume to lecture me on leadership. I know all of my troops' first names, and I am privileged to call many of them my friends since I came from the ranks of those who I serve with. Many of those are currently getting read for roto. If you actually reviewed your Principles of Leadership, no where does it say 'know your subordinates as you know yourself'. It DOES say however, and I quote:

#6 "Know your soldiers and promote their welfare"

Also, why would a bunch of Ptes not know each other? When you were on your courses did you ever routinely address each other by their Christian/First names? I know I didn't, becuase you are used to that, and there could be 5 different Bobs, Joes and Bloggins and Greenwoods. I sat in a level 3 and level 4 with my fireteam partner and for the life of me we couldnt remember each other's first names, did it matter? NO. 

You know what... I am REALLY offended by the fact that you said my instructors had p#$% poor leadership!! I mean... forget it I'm going to go before I say something stupid....


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## Sub_Guy (16 Apr 2007)

Submariners and Air Force have this cased.  Those of you in the Army and skimmer Navy types could learn something from them.


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## Roy Harding (16 Apr 2007)

ArtyNewbie:

I'll pretty much agree with MedTech here - except I wouldn't have used the word "please".

Other than that - MedTech sums it up to my complete agreement.


Roy


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 Apr 2007)

I don't belive I was calling your leadership into question, you were reading far too much into it. I was simply saying that for any instructor to state that there is no place for given names in the military, and for your information yes I knew and used the given names of all of my peers on all of my career courses, in the shacks, in the mess, in the middle of the night on fire picket, during the middle watch when you're shooting the breeze just to stay awake. we'd talk about things like home towns, kids, dreams, ambitions.
In the classroom, on parade moving about the base its nothing but business as it should be, formal like.
you see we have a publication dedicated to heritage and tradition that dictates how we address each other, it does provide guidance on the use of given names.
The following is provided for reference to show I'm not just talking out my a@#$% but have taken the time to research the topic a little.

A-AD-200-000/AG-000 THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE
OF THE CANADIAN FORCES Chap 11 Art 11

11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued
use of given names in a social setting within the
bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military
discipline.

Generaly unit standing orders amplify on this one to identify just what "social setting" means.

If I personnally offended you I appologize, but please do not take offence when I make a statement towards actions that are not yours.


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## medaid (16 Apr 2007)

Well maybe you and I just have had different experiences then. I rarely addressed my course mates by their first names. When it got down to it I did shoot the sh^t with my course mates when we were on stand-to and pickets, but even then I rarely used their first names. There was nothing wrong with my instructors' instructions. They said we should never address each other by our first-names when we're working. The last time I checked work was neither a time to social nor to chat it up, and by your reference, it merely reinforces my point that there is no place for first-names when we're working, and that's where the whole point originated from. Etiquette at work. Another point by your reference is that 'use of given names in a* SOCIAL SETTING* within the bounds of *NORMAL ETIQUETTE* and *TRADITIONAL MILITARY DISCIPLINE*.' Normal etiquette and traditional military discipline says nothing about addressing your subordinates or superiors by their first names. 


Lastly I took offence not because it was directed towards me, it was exactly because it was about my instructors. I can honestly say that my section 2IC and later section commander was one of the most professional soldiers I have met thus far. The wealth of knowledge and professionalism my instructor had earned my never dying respect. That is why I was offended. I was offended because with out knowing the individual, you had criticized their leadership capabilities. Actually, you had insulted his leadership capabilities which I just could not let  go. If we really must talk about leadership, there's one right there, loyalty.


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## aesop081 (16 Apr 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> The last time I checked work was neither a time to social nor to chat it up,



Your workplace must be some boring....glad i dont work there.


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## medaid (16 Apr 2007)

oh come on  you know what I mean CDN Aviator the long dull moments with that tiny bit of excitement. You'll like it here  especially in my office, I get to go and visit Nursing Schools and explain to the 30/40 beautiful nursing students that their future lies with the Canadian Forces Health Services  ;D


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 Apr 2007)

Med Tech,

Your loyalty to your intructors is indeed commendable as it should be. 
"They said we should never address each other by our first-names when we're working." the examples I gave included in the mess (a practically rank-less environment), and in the shacks, just because my contract says 24 hrs a day 365 days a year doesnt mean I can't socialize at work.

And I can see your points, I was at one time about 8 years ago, a reservist and the use of first names was almost non-existant, so we have indeed had different experiences. I'll tell you from experience 6 months on a ship addressing everyone by thier last name and rank/appt with no socialization grates on everyones nerve, there still needs to be a relaxed atmosphere even at work, but thats where the mess comes into play. 

I will agree with your instructors comments about the use of given names at work to a point, ie in mixed company but it's not wrong for a Cpl and a Mcpl to address each other by first name, unless of course there are Pte's present and likewise up the chain. It tends to make a more efficient workplace day to day.

Also another point, I live in married quarters, my neighbor is a MS should I address him by rank and name when we're in the backyard having a beer, maybe I should have him put his heels together and address me as Mister, just how far do we take it


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## medaid (16 Apr 2007)

I think if you were in my back yard I'd give you a beer tell you to sit down and relax. As for the MS, well I'd give him two beers, sit down and address me by my first name  Why does he get two and you only get one you ask? Well, because we both know that OCdts dont work nearly as hard or as efficiently as MS/MCpls do .

Problems resolved I say. Different experiences, both valid to a point. Do we now have a gentlemen's accord?


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## Disenchantedsailor (16 Apr 2007)

Sounds good,

I tend to say what I want in the worst possible manner sometimes.


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## SupersonicMax (16 Apr 2007)

The first thing I was told when I got to my old unit is : "Up to captain (an including Captain), it's first name." 

In more formal context (courses for example), I understand that using Ranks/Sir/Ma'am can be required...  

Max


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## Michael OLeary (16 Apr 2007)

Locked for a time out.  There's probably not much more to add at this point, so if you have read the entire thread and still feel you have something useful to offer at this time, please ask Moderator to reopen the thread.

Army.ca Staff


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