# Pyrotechnics - Smoke Pot Hazards



## Belaj (21 Sep 2009)

At our last exercise, I, as well as many troops, suffered through an extraordinarily bad smoke pot placement. After inhaling smoke that felt like it took a few years off my life, I’m now looking for a reference on this particular piece of equipment (specifically, usage warnings). Being a Reservist, my access to the DWAN is (time-) limited, so if someone could point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated!


(Moderator edit to clarify title.)


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## AmmoTech90 (21 Sep 2009)

Army Electronic Library, download the PDF of B-GL-381... Ranges and Training Safety.  Or your training cell might have one printed off.  It's all in there.


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## Belaj (21 Sep 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Army Electronic Library, download the PDF of B-GL-381... Ranges and Training Safety.  Or your training cell might have one printed off.  It's all in there.



B-GL-381-001-TS-000(CH9)


> HEXACHLORATHAN (HC) SMOKE
> 269.  Concerns.  The Chief of Health Services has stated that there may be a significant health hazard to anyone inhaling HC smoke.  This hazard could include immediate effects on respiration and a possible long-term risk of cancer.
> 
> 270.  Safety Measures.  The following safety measures shall be adhered to when using any HC smoke producing device:
> ...



Well, that will make for an interesting incident report.

It looks like B-GL-361-008-FP-003 has some pertinent info on the smoke pot, but when I open it, all I get is a PDF with the line "Document not found". I'll see tomorrow if it works on the DWAN.

Thanks AmmoTech!




			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> This title is totally misleading.



Yeah, I guess... most search results for "smoke pot" are about smoking pot. But I did put the topic under Equipment!


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Sep 2009)

IIRC not all smoke grenades and generators are HC, only the grey\white. Could be wrong though. 

Comments from an ammo tech?


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## Belaj (21 Sep 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> IIRC not all smoke grenades and generators are HC, only the grey\white. Could be wrong though.
> 
> Comments from an ammo tech?



It was white smoke. I believe it was the 15 min smoke pot, although it could have been the 5 min one. In any case, it was at its peak when I walked by it; I literally couldn't see the guy in front of me (had to keep my arm on him).


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## ammocat (22 Sep 2009)

Did you actually see the smoke pot. Most 3-5 minute smoke pots are 6 inches high and 3-4 inches in diameter. The 15 minute smoke pot is 12.25 inches high and 8 inches in diameter.

If your unit was using the 15 minute smoke pot they should have been provided the restrictions with them regarding the safety precautions for using HC smoke. The restrictions refer to training safety. If you have DWAN access you can look up C-09-216-001/TX-000 for the restrictions. This publication is not up to date though, as know restrictions are put out on AIMS, but this pub does have one for two NSN's of 15 minute smoke pots.

Your ammo rep/CQ should be able to verify the model and NSN of the smoke pot.


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## Belaj (22 Sep 2009)

ammocat said:
			
		

> Did you actually see the smoke pot. Most 3-5 minute smoke pots are 6 inches high and 3-4 inches in diameter. The 15 minute smoke pot is 12.25 inches high and 8 inches in diameter.
> 
> If your unit was using the 15 minute smoke pot they should have been provided the restrictions with them regarding the safety precautions for using HC smoke. The restrictions refer to training safety. If you have DWAN access you can look up C-09-216-001/TX-000 for the restrictions. This publication is not up to date though, as know restrictions are put out on AIMS, but this pub does have one for two NSN's of 15 minute smoke pots.
> 
> Your ammo rep/CQ should be able to verify the model and NSN of the smoke pot.



I handled the smoke pot after the fact; I tried to get some info off it, but it was burned & covered with dust. It was definitely taller than 6 inches; 12.25 x 8 sounds right.

I already thought about getting the NSN; I'll make a request for it tomorrow evening. I searched for C-09-216-001/TX-000 in the Electronic Library and it leads to B-GL-381-001-TS-000(CH9)...


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## ammocat (22 Sep 2009)

I am sure AIMS has more restrictions for this item, but again, they all lead back to training safety. I would be curious to know though if your unit actually received copies of the user restrictions when the ammunition was issued.


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## AmmoTech90 (22 Sep 2009)

They probably did receive the restrictions and warnings, when it was issued.  How long ago was that?  What did the ammo rep do with them?  Were they given to one OIC Ex where the smoke was not used but rather returned, but without the restriction.

Highlights my concerns about not updating 216 in a public venue.  These are for the most part user warnings, users should have access.  It should be second nature for a RSO/OIC Ex to check the warnings on the ammo they are responsible for.

However given that it appears a lot of B-GL-381 is only skimmed over and that is a pub written by the army for the army, how much attention would be given to a purple pub.

You won't find 216 on Army Electronic Library as it is not an army pub.  Maybe on the ATs who are sitting at DIN terminal can send the link for the pub depot.

And there are non-HC smoke pots, but they are normally only used for leak detection and fire fighting drills.


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## genesis98 (23 Sep 2009)

Just to get some more details on the whole situation involving this incident, were you wearing your FFO during this incident and was your gas mask at your side?

Aswell you describe walking through the smoke, were you outside of the smoke area and walked through it or was it carried into your area and you were attempting to walk out of the area?


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## Belaj (24 Sep 2009)

This is the info I was given : series 1550, NSN 1365-4505. Can anyone confirm this is the HC version?



			
				genesis98 said:
			
		

> Just to get some more details on the whole situation involving this incident, were you wearing your FFO during this incident and was your gas mask at your side?



All troops had their FFO, although I'm pretty sure not everyone was issued a gas mask. It's also safe to assume that some troops don't have a filter. My own filter is over 5 years old (it was still good against hand smoke grenades when I used last year though). The Lt never gave the order to put our masks, just the order to charge (I'm not sure if he knew the source of the smoke was a smoke pot). Regardless, in my opinion, this was a training and supervision deficiency, which I will be highlighting in my incident report.



			
				genesis98 said:
			
		

> Aswell you describe walking through the smoke, were you outside of the smoke area and walked through it or was it carried into your area and you were attempting to walk out of the area?



The smoke pot was near the objective. We had to run towards and by the smoke pot, which was located in a narrow passage; we were less than 2m from the active smoke pot. Also, the wind was pushing the smoke towards us during the final approach. To make matters worse, the initial approach was through a wooded and upwards sloped area...


A final question for those more familiar with this than me: I wrote my incident report as a memo. Who should I put as the Action & Info recipients (my immediate supervisor in Action or someone else)? Is there another format that I should use instead of a memo?


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Sep 2009)

This thread has been cleaned and reopened. Keep it on track or it'll get locked again. For good. 

I'll likely throw a few warnings around also.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## chrisf (29 Sep 2009)

As the issue of training safety, or the lack thereof, and the oft heard rebuttal of "suck it up" to training regulations, here's the full details on HC smoke....



From B-GL-385-007/PT-001 [unrelated portions removed]



> Sect 5-21
> 
> The safety precautions for the various smoke pots are as follows:
> 
> ...



From the Agency for Toxid Substances and Disease Registry http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts97.html



> How can hexachloroethane affect my health?
> Mild skin irritation has been reported by workers at a munitions factory who were exposed to low levels of hexachloroethane. The workers were wearing protective clothing that greatly reduced exposure. No other information is available concerning health effects in people exposed to hexachloroethane.
> 
> Based on animal studies, hexachloroethane in air can irritate your nose and lungs and cause some buildup of mucus in your nose, much like an allergy. It can also irritate your eyes and make them tear.
> ...



End result, occaisonal accidental exposure to HC smoke won't kill you, howver, if you're going to be using it, the rules say wear a gas mask, and it's toxic, so wear a gas mask. The Grenades and Pyrotechnics Manual lists a number of smoke pots, most of which to the best of my knowledge, 
are no longer in use, and I can't find an updated copy which lists current pyro, however, as far as I know, the "lime green" smoke pots do still use HC smoke, while the "forest green" smoke "grenades" as well as the coloured marker smoke do not use HC smoke. If it was a lime green coloured smoke pot of some sort, the individuals were likely exposed to HC smoke.


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## Belaj (29 Sep 2009)

Thanks recceguy.

I had saved a long-winded reply, but seeing how the topic derailed, I’m not sure if I should revisit all the (deleted) comments. At the very least, I think I should explain the context a bit more:

House-clearing exercise, on top of a hill, with c-cans, concrete walls, cliffs and woods obscuring the view. I knew a smoke pot was involved only when I heard it as I ran past it in zero-visibility. When we got out of the woods and started running towards the objective, I just assumed the smoke was from a hand grenade.

I have to say that it never occurred to me that someone would be foolish enough to place a smoke pot in such a way that troops would have to run within 2m of it…



> Okay, not everyone had a gas mask?  That in itself is a failure.



Things are not always so simple in the Reserves. Sometimes the clothing store doesn’t have the kit you need or doesn’t want to give it to you for some reason or other. Also, it’s not always easy to find the time to go to the clothing store; most troops are full-time students and some live far away from the base. When we go through the RQM, requests can take forever to be fulfilled (mostly due to reasons that are out of their control).


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## Belaj (29 Sep 2009)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> If it was a lime green coloured smoke pot of some sort, the individuals were likely exposed to HC smoke.



As far as I know, it was the 15 min white/gray smoke pot. I posted the NSN above.


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## chrisf (29 Sep 2009)

Which was likely HC smoke. And like I said, it's toxic, but limited exposure won't kill you.


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## ammocat (29 Sep 2009)

The numbers you provided are not the nsn. 1365 is the first four of the nsn, 4505 is the ammunition interchangeability code. Looking this up there are two nsns, 1365-21-860-3527 Smoke Pot Ground No 24 Mk 2 15 Min SC39 and 1365-21-103-8683 Smoke Pot No 24 Mk 2, both are HC Smoke.


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## Belaj (30 Sep 2009)

Another piece of info: I spoke with my Lt yesterday (who was also leading the attack during the incident) and he told me no one informed him about any smoke pot restrictions or precautions for HC smoke.



			
				ammocat said:
			
		

> The numbers you provided are not the nsn. 1365 is the first four of the nsn, 4505 is the ammunition interchangeability code. Looking this up there are two nsns, 1365-21-860-3527 Smoke Pot Ground No 24 Mk 2 15 Min SC39 and 1365-21-103-8683 Smoke Pot No 24 Mk 2, both are HC Smoke.



Thanks ammocat. I asked for a NSN and that was the number I was given... I'll forward your number so I can get a definite confirmation on which smoke pot was involved.


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## ammocat (30 Sep 2009)

Whoever organized the exercise and determined what ammunition was going to be used should be aware of the safety precautions for all natures of ammunition being used from the B-GL-381.

The restrictions should have been given to your ammo rep by the supporting ammunition facility when the ammunition was issued. Usually they are stapled to the supply documents (DND2287's). Your ammo rep should be providing the restrictions to whoever is actually using it. Unfortunately, your ammo rep may not be aware of the requirement to pass the restrictions on and may not even be aware of what the restrictions are. Many ammo reps do not have any formal training to make them aware of these things.

There is a relatively new course now, the Unit Ammunition Representative Course that teaches ammo reps about handling, storing, and transporting ammunition. Eventually all ammo reps will have to have the course.


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