# Advice needed - Best Winter Gloves?



## DirtyDog (19 Dec 2006)

I'm currently on Christmas leave from St. Jean BMQ and will be doing our field training in Farnham shortly after getting back.  Our  instructors have stated they will allow us (and even advised we do so) to purchase and use our own winter finger gloves.  Personally, and I know it's the case for many others, I find the issued combat gloves at basic (with the leather outers and felt inners) to be less then ideal and I have hands that are difficult to size gloves for (short and stubby ).  Also, many of the gloves issued are used and some have large holes in them.

So I'm looking for advice on what are some of the best gloves I can purchase out there on the civilian market (I have no QM access).  One stipulation was that they had to be black (or atleast mostly black).  I used to buy Mechanix type contractor gloves when I worked construction and they would give a nice tactical fit allowing me to operate the C7 and do things like buttons up easier, but I'd be worried about them not being warm enough when not on the move and active.

Anyone have any ideas? 

 Thanks.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2006)

We used to have an issued piece of kit titled "Mittens, trigger finger", or something close to that.

They were good leather mittens, complete with a good liner, which had a "trigger finger" appendage built in.  If you were carrying your weapon, you had your trigger finger in its' respective place, while your other three fingers kept warm together in the main mitt.  When you didn't need your trigger finger handy, it went into the mitt with its' mates, and all was cozy.  (Picture a normal mitten, with a thumb "receptacle", then add a "trigger finger" receptacle in the appropriate place).

I don't know if that mitten is still on issue - if it isn't, it should be, if it is - get some.


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## DirtyDog (19 Dec 2006)

I beleive we were still issued those mittens.  I own a similar pair in civy life.  Popular with Hydro workers.

Anyway, I was hoping for something that offered a little more dexterity.


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## Haggis (19 Dec 2006)

I like the "Best Defense" Gore-Tex (TM) gloves issued to the US Army.  Good, tough, outer leather, good dexterity and quite warm and dry.  You can buy them online for about $80 CAD.


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## Roy Harding (19 Dec 2006)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> I beleive we were still issued those mittens.  I own a similar pair in civy life.  Popular with Hydro workers.
> 
> Anyway, I was hoping for something that offered a little more dexterity.



Seen.

The other method we used to use was to wear combat glove liners under the Arctic mitten.  When you need the dexterity of all five fingers at once you took your gloved hand out of the mitten, did what you had to do, then put it back into the mitten.

As a former Winter Warfare Instructor, I truly do not believe that you will find a glove that will keep your hands warm in extreme cold,. Just look at your hands - there's absolutely no fat there - you can see the bones.  There is no insulation in your hands - I understand that you need dexterity, but I also understand that you only need dexterity for a few minutes at a time.

If you DO find such a glove, I'd be very interested to know about it (I still live and work in a cold climate - Canadian, eh?)


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## DirtyDog (19 Dec 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I like the "Best Defense" Gore-Tex (TM) gloves issued to the US Army.  Good, tough, outer leather, good dexterity and quite warm and dry.  You can buy them online for about $80 CAD.



Will definitely look it up.

Where's the best place to look online?

I'll need to get them shipped up her by Jan 5 if I go with them.

Thanks.


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## DirtyDog (19 Dec 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Seen.
> 
> The other method we used to use was to wear combat glove liners under the Arctic mitten.  When you need the dexterity of all five fingers at once you took your gloved hand out of the mitten, did what you had to do, then put it back into the mitten.
> 
> ...



Yes, I definitely understand what you are saying.

The weather so far this winter has been "unseasonal" to say the least, so I'm not entirely sure what we will be in store for by the end of January in Farnham.  I agree mittens are unavoidable in a harsh winter climate, but if perchance it will be cool to mild, I'd like to be prepared.

Thanks.


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## papatango (19 Dec 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Seen.
> 
> The other method we used to use was to wear combat glove liners under the Arctic mitten.  When you need the dexterity of all five fingers at once you took your gloved hand out of the mitten, did what you had to do, then put it back into the mitten.
> 
> ...



  I'll second this; if there's any mountaineers or ice climbers here, they'll tell you its better to slip your bare hands out of a good pair of mitts once and a while, rather than risk losing circulation from cold glove hands.
  My suggestion? A thinner pair of insulated tac gloves under a big comfy goretex based over mitt. 

Outer:
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442543895&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698935&bmUID=1166557726683

Inner:
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442544477&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698971&bmUID=1166557815764

Inner:
https://ringersgloves.com/viewcart.aspx

Ringers gloves can be ordered from the "Source Shop", in Toronto. 

 Don't forget; lightweight synthetics melt easily, take that into account when handling things like kit stoves & vehicles.  Also, check out Marks work warehouse for cost saving alternatives- there's lots of other brands than goretex that work just as well, such as hyvent & powersheild.

 Good luck!


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## MJP (19 Dec 2006)

Although I like papatango's layered approach just remember that the field is hard on gloves and I hate paying lots of money for gloves that'll get ruined by diesel, naptha and hard wear.  I always carry a few pairs of these puppies.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442617636&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698971&bmUID=1166558182594

Combined with these

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442617627&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698935&bmUID=1166558391678

Makes a cheap yet effective way to stay warm.  The gloves order a size smaller than normal and you'll have little to no difficulty in operating anything.


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## papatango (19 Dec 2006)

I'll totally agree; but don't expect wind or water resistence from fleece.  If you're spending the money, put it into the outers; you'll be taking them off when performing tactile tasks like filling stoves, etc.


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## fourninerzero (19 Dec 2006)

I use a pair of MEC softshell gloves for temps around -5 or so, a pair of the issued trigger finger leather and wool gloves for any colder, and on occasion a pair of snowboarding gloves in a military friendly color. I also use a set of Manzella windstopper liner gloves, they are great for cutting out wind (hense the name) and holding in heat under a pair of gloves. these allow for the dexterity without having to take all your layers of gloves off when doing thoes activities that require some skillful finger work.


my 0.02.


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## qjdb (20 Dec 2006)

I am not in an extrememly cold part of the country (Chilliwack BC, but I have found some pretty warm gloves at Home Depot, Superstore and Costco.

In fact, I just picked up the Costco ones a couple days ago, and as such, still have them in my backpack, they are Head brand - Outlast model.  They have a tag inside the collar that says Breathable and Waterproof, a small pocket on the back that would fit a heat pack or keys (about 3" x 3"), and have a web strap on the wrist, and a shockcord strap on the collar.  Pretty durable looking material on the palm and fingertips.  The fingertips might stick in a trigger guard, but when I put them on, they don't seem too horribly bulky.

I have not had these out in the cold yet, but when I wore them at about 2 C, my hands were sweating up a storm, so I have a feeling that they are going to be pretty good (for me, I have pretty warm hands) to about -15 C.

Their colouration probably fits with what you need as well, they are black with dark grey highlights.

This is them right here, but at Costco, they were $16.99

http://cgi.ebay.com/HEAD-Outlast-Gloves-Adult-Size-XLarge-NEW-w-Tags_W0QQitemZ130058165905QQihZ003QQcategoryZ21234QQcmdZViewItem

qjdb


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## Shamrock (20 Dec 2006)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> I used to buy Mechanix type contractor gloves when I worked construction and they would give a nice tactical fit allowing me to operate the C7 and do things like buttons up easier, but I'd be worried about them not being warm enough when not on the move and active.



Seems like you already know what you're looking for.  Assuming you've worked long hours in a cold environment as a construction worker, you're going to understand the required balance between dexterity and insulation.  You're also going to know the harsh working conditions that'll destroy an inferior glove.  I like mechanic-style gloves for the armour across the fingers, otherwise my knuckles get all cut up when I run.

Personally, I'll recommend for contact gloves a pair of the rubber-coated string knit gloves.  Fairly good insulation (better than the garden/contact gloves we're issued), great grip, and little dexterity loss.  They're dirt cheap (about $5) and easily attainable.


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## rwgill (21 Dec 2006)

Best gloves i ever bought were wet suit gloves.  Yes, using for diving.  They are warm even when wet and usually my hands sweat in them.


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## fourninerzero (21 Dec 2006)

I used neoprene gloves for a while, and hated them for the very fact my hands would sweat. Eventually when you wear them it will get cold enough to get real unpleasant with wet clammy hands. go for something that is dry and warm, something that wont make your hands sweat.


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## Haggis (21 Dec 2006)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Will definitely look it up.
> 
> Where's the best place to look online?
> 
> ...



http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productID=5465&TabID=1


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## Journeyman (21 Dec 2006)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> *I like mechanic-style gloves for the armour across the fingers, otherwise my knuckles get all cut up when I run.*


Do you tend to fall down a lot when you run?   >


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## navymich (21 Dec 2006)

JM, look who it is making the remark.  Of course he doesn't fall down, it's just the fact that those knuckles drag while he walks, so imagine what they do when he runs.  ;D


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## Klc (21 Dec 2006)

Seems to me he probably drags them on the ground.  ;D

I got really warm, really thin gloves with leather palms from a hunting/sporting goods store. Problem is, as they are synthetic, and I am a smoker (and apparently a dumb one at that) - theres a few holes in them now. Might be something to consider.

[edit: beat to the punch]


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## Kamaro (21 Dec 2006)

I just finished bmq... we had a good time in some very cold weather, on the last couple of weeks. 

We were issued the "mortar" gloves and the big arctic mitts. When you're on patrol, that sorta thing, all you needed was a $1 walmart cotton glove liner inside the mortar gloves to keep you fairly warm. After the first k of a march you don't have to worry about being cold any more.

When you're on base sentry at your FOB (you'll see what I mean) you will be very very cold. Standing still gets you. You'll want to wear the mukluks, the balaclava, the goggles, and the arctic mitts on top of whatever other gloves you have on. We were out when it was -20 or so and snowing and it wasn't too bad with all the gear on. I didn't have the mukluks or the arctic mitts on and so long as I kept moving I was ok. 

If you're heading out into week 11 (hoochies etc) you probably won't ever be super cold.. I can't really recall any significant period of time spent sitting still!  ;D
week 12 is the base defense stuff and you'll want to bring all your winter gear (if issued) and that should pretty much suffice. 

Basically, if you're worried about the thinner gloves being too cold.. don't be. Whenever you're wearing them you'll be moving enough to stay warm. If you're on base sentry you have time to grab your kit and get warm anyway. Bring everything on the list your COC gives you and anything extra you think you'd like. The water canteen tends to freeze solid so the thermos might be a good idea... anyway that's kinda off topic.  Have fun!


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## Springroll (22 Dec 2006)

Thank you for that post, kamaro. I head out to Farnham(wk 11) Jan 8th, and our Pl 2ic also gave us permission to use civvie gloves, since the issued ones suck for keeping dry and warm. You were out there at the same time as us....lol

A piece of advice for anyone going out for week 9 in Farnham after Xmas, bring some thin, warm civvie gloves for use at the range. You are spending alot of time not moving other than switching from prone to the other positions(kneeling, sitting and standing) and your hands will get soaked after a while. You may also want to buy those little packages of glove warmers. They are a life saver, or in this case a hand saver!


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## Armymedic (22 Dec 2006)

FourNinerZero said:
			
		

> I used neoprene gloves for a while, and hated them for the very fact my hands would sweat. Eventually when you wear them it will get cold enough to get real unpleasant with wet clammy hands.


neoprene gloves + winter = frozen hands...Bad juju.



			
				Springroll said:
			
		

> You may also want to buy those little packages of glove warmers. They are a life saver, or in this case a hand saver!


Those are expensive, bulky, prevent you from actually handling anything, and only used when you are WEAK or dying. If your hands are getting cold, you are not dressed properly...cold hands means your core is not warm enough or the gloves you are wearing are inadequate. 

 :tsktsk:

Gloves are like boots, as in every person will give you a different answer. The "perfect" answer is a series of handwear. The good old way is to wear a liner glove, with a leather glove overtop, and finally the Arctic mitt onto over that. That would keep your handswarm to minus freaking cold.

Peronally, I like to use Ropers gloves. You can get them lined (29.99) or without (19.99) from Marks work wear house or other work wear/western wear stores. The unlined gloves are just like the old cbt gloves...and with a poly pro liner work really well to about -15 (same as the lined). Columbia sells windproof gloves with leather palms and reinforced trigger finger (15.99 at LeBarons in Ottawa) which are inexpensive and worked well for me this fall.

One pair is never enough...when one pair gets wet-you get cold. You need 2 prs minimum. Spares are kept in a Ziploc in my kit. Clean and dry = warm.


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## Springroll (22 Dec 2006)

St. Micheal's Medical Team said:
			
		

> If your hands are getting cold, you are not dressed properly...cold hands means your core is not warm enough or the gloves you are wearing are inadequate.



The gloves I was using were the issued green inners with the leather outers. Part of the issue I found was that the gloves really didn't fit my hands(small lady hands) and with the leather outer on, I could not handle my weapon efficiently. I gave up and took the outer off, but with that came the freezing fingers. 

I was told by one person to check out Mountain Equipment Co-op since cold is kind of their specialty. Has anyone seen anything there that is any good to -30?


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## NCRCrow (22 Dec 2006)

why are recruits buying their own kit..................


welcome back Springroll


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## Hot Lips (22 Dec 2006)

If I and MRM hadn't bought me kit for basic I would have froze and been soaked.
I couldn't get a second pair of boots for 6 weeks...


HL
I purchased socks, long underwear and gloves from MEC...just to name a few items.


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Dec 2006)

MEC has lots of good gloves but...will you be able to wear them is the question?  Some units are ok with the wearing non-issued kit.  Other's aren't.  I would find out before you go spend your own $$ only to find out you can't wear the kit.

Having said that, one thing we used to do was to mix/match our kit.  Hand-warmth was an issue, and the work around we did was to wear the cmbt glove liners inside the arctic mitt outter (with the arctic mitt inner removed of course).  Except in the coldest conditions, or when stationary for long periods (ie. an O.P. or sentry or likewise), this was a workable solution.  When required, you could remove the arctic mitt, and still have gloved fingers.  If you needed bare fingers, the gloves liners stayed in the arctic mitt, retaining more of the heat.  If you got warm?  Remove the arctic mitts, roll them up, and into the parka pocket or what have you.

Sealskinz are good gloves to keep you hands dry, although they have little insulation value.  Pair them up with good, thin liners, and under the said pair of arctic mitts?  Seems like it would work...

As HLs mentions in her post, Recruits aren't entitled to some of the kit that "everyone else" is.  And lots of people consider that kit to be sub-standard.  Like the CWW gloves.  I had to find them at the surplus store here, and ship them up.  Atleast then, she had kit that was "issued" and stood a better chance of being able to wear it.  

Back in the Sqn, most of us used the cmbt glove liners in the arctic mitt trick...and ya, we all had 4 pair of them (cmbt glove liners) cause once they got wet...you got cold.  Time to change  up.


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## Armymedic (22 Dec 2006)

Springroll said:
			
		

> The gloves I was using were the issued green inners with the leather outers. Part of the issue I found was that the gloves really didn't fit my hands(small lady hands) and with the leather outer on, I could not handle my weapon efficiently. I gave up and took the outer off, but with that came the freezing fingers.



Gloves, improper fitting or not, should not prevent you from handling your weapon effectively. Good excuse though. Being a relatively inexperienced soldier, you just need more practice.

So I guess in this 50/50 situation...you were 90% wrong.


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## NCRCrow (22 Dec 2006)

why are recruits buying their own gear?

why are they missing meals!!!

What is going on??????


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Dec 2006)

For reasons unknown to me, recruits in trng are not entitled to the same SI "trained" troops are.  Instead of the ICES/ICS jacket, they get the old old combat jackets...the cardboard one.  They get...CADPAT Bivy bags...but the old style combat gloves...I am sure there is a reason (not one I would agree is valid fwiw) that they don't...they just...don't.  I supplied HLs with...hmmm....proper fitting Mk IIIs, a decent combat jacket liner...CWW gloves...an old IPE bag...the new Temperate Glove (CADPAT leather type),  the "new" thermal headgear (neck gaitor and balaclava) and numerous other pieces of kit that is not on the SI for recruits.

Not eating?  There is time to eat, just not lots.  There is limited space to put lots of recruits thru.  From what I have heard (I have been asking around some) it seems to me that maybe the Marching NCOs are not supervising their troops closely enough.  Example, the recruit that takes 5 minutes to make a salad.  That recruit won't have 5 minutes when I am standing there.   >

Thats just my opinion, from some stuff I heard recently...being that I am to RFD there on 08 Jan, I have become alittle curious...most of the stuff I have heard is from recent students and a current BMQ instructor, Reg Frce Navy type.

"SI" means Scale of Issue, or..it used to I think.


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## Kamaro (22 Dec 2006)

I don't know where "not eating" came into this thread, but at St. Jean they're over capacity and the mess staff are like 6 to 1000. You have say, 35 minutes for lunch (which is decent) and then a 15-20 minute wait in line just to get to the line for food. They're crammin in the platoons (which is good) but not upping their ability to deal with them. For instance, not enough DEUs to go around, not enough c7a2s for every platoon to train on them, you get the idea. 

Our staff were fairly good about dealing with the lunch lines.. we had enough time to eat- fast. I didn't mind. 

Back to gloves! like others have said, have more than one pair, of liners at least. I had two pair cotton liners and there's nothing better than swapping a wet half-frozen pair for a dry set. Carry em with a change of socks in your butt-pack.


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## aesop081 (22 Dec 2006)

Kamaro said:
			
		

> I don't know where "not eating" came into this thread, but at St. Jean they're over capacity and the mess staff are like 6 to 1000. You have say, 35 minutes for lunch (which is decent) and then a 15-20 minute wait in line just to get to the line for food. They're crammin in the platoons (which is good) but not upping their ability to deal with them. For instance, not enough DEUs to go around, not enough c7a2s for every platoon to train on them, you get the idea.



 :crybaby:


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## the 48th regulator (22 Dec 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> :crybaby:



:rofl:

Yup,

Here is a better idea, at breakfast time, grab lots and lots of hardboiled eggs then shove them in yer pockets where the gloves are. 

Hand warmers, and a meal.

and that is the regulator's words of wisdom for the day...

dileas

tess


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## Springroll (22 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> MEC has lots of good gloves but...will you be able to wear them is the question?  Some units are ok with the wearing non-issued kit.  Other's aren't.  I would find out before you go spend your own $$ only to find out you can't wear the kit.



I only know what my platoon was told, and our Pl 2ic suggested we get our own pair to wear out in the field when we get back because of the poor quality of the gloves that were issued. He also told us that for sentry duties etc, that he will be requiring us to wear the arctic mitts, but for patrolling and such, we will be permitted to wear our own gloves.


Thanks for the welcome back HFXCrow


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## the 48th regulator (22 Dec 2006)

So much for my words of wisdom for today....

dileas

tess


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## Trinity (23 Dec 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> So much for my words of wisdom for today....



I like to pour Naptha on my hands to keep them warm.

It works.. really...   :

well.. maybe if you then light the naptha.

DO NOT.. spill naptha on your hands.  Not only is it
a poor hand lotion...  in cold weather *you'll feel* like
your hands are frostbitten in seconds.

Been there.. done that.  It's fun.


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## the 48th regulator (23 Dec 2006)

Trinity said:
			
		

> I like to pour Naptha on my hands to keep them warm.
> 
> It works.. really...   :
> 
> ...



Jenkers,

that is brining back far away memories....

dileas

tess


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## vonGarvin (23 Dec 2006)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> why are recruits buying their own gear?
> 
> why are they missing meals!!!
> 
> What is going on??????


I'll put in here something I wrote in another thread re meals:


			
				Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> My fave was my ISCC at the PPCLI Battle School back in 1990 (yes, I was an RCR then at the Patricia Battle School!  Talk about fun!)  Anyway, my favourite episode from that series occured during week 3 or 4.  We were doing crunchies or some other God Aweful stuff in the shacks, in arctic gear with the staff focussing on varoius contestants.  One fella was asked "Do you want to be here?", and answered "Yes!  Master Corporal!"  "Bulls--t!" and so on.  I felt the honour of being a contestant for a bit, yelling through my respirator that yes, indeed, I did want to be there.  A few wall sits and pushups later, another fella was asked "Do YOU want to be here?", and much to our surprise, answered "No, Master Corporal!"  "Fine.  Everybody kit up and on the road.  Except you, Bloggins".  Well, we went out to the road, got marched to dinner (*for which we had exactly five minutes to be back out on the road, formed up, all accounted for*).  Nobody noticed that Bloggins wasn't there.  We marched back to the shacks, and there was no trace of him.  His bed was folded up, his kit was gone and nobody asked The Question.
> 
> My Phase III had an interesting episode one day out at Dunn's Corner here in Gagetown.  We lined up for supper and were told that "...*in fifteen minutes*, everyone has eaten, this is all packed up, and you are at the LD, ready to advance."  I was the Weapons' Det Commander at the time (meaning I was near the end of the line), and *I still had my steak* (it was Thursday), *another steak* (after going back for seconds), *two cigarettes and a bowel movement. * Although nobody was voted out on that episode, it just proved to us slack and idle candidates, that yes, timings, even insane timings, can be met!



Given the proper motivation, most anything can be done.

For what it's worth, I did ISCC, BOTC parts I and II, Infantry Phase II, Phase III and Phase IV all with "issued" kit only.  I'm still alive to tell the tale.  Suck it up, buttercups.

And I failed to mention my basic machine gunner course, on firing point 4/5 in Gagetown, December 1989.  No gloves on (yeah, I know, stupid me).  How, pray tell, did I keep my fingers warm?  ARMPITS.  Where there's a will, there's a way.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Dec 2006)

I suggest you get a couple of pairs of these wool/ nylon mix Fox River gloves from MEC (only 10 bucks), or the equivalent. Top with the issued mitts for when it gets really cold. I've worn this type of glove at temperatures down to - 25 or so with no problems while handling weapons, skiing, climbing or snowshoeing. Some building supply stores carry this type of glove with the anti-contact nubs on them as well, and they're better for grip.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441772939&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302698971&bmUID=1166857090033


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## vonGarvin (23 Dec 2006)

Personally, I'd suggest that you go through this very "basic" of training with the very 'basics".  You'll lose nary a limb or digit.  And, if nothing else, it will highlight to you the limitations of some of our "wonderful" kit.


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## NCRCrow (23 Dec 2006)

I remember getting "pop" privileges. 

I think it sets a bad standard when recruits are encouraged to buy there own gear. 


...........off to the Green and Gold


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## armyvern (23 Dec 2006)

Springroll said:
			
		

> I only know what my platoon was told, and our Pl 2ic suggested we get our own pair to wear out in the field when we get back because of the poor quality of the gloves that were issued. He also told us that for sentry duties etc, that he will be requiring us to wear the arctic mitts, but for patrolling and such, we will be permitted to wear our own gloves.



Cool, wear 2nd skin type gloves on the ranges etc!! Better yet, make sure that you have you arctic mitts on for "sentry" duties; yeah those sentry duties that involve weapons handling/challenging/(in the real world - firing). Yeah, that's where I'd make sure I had you wear arctic mitts too; right after you came back from picking me up the can of cadpat paint at the QM.

Your posts are really beginning to scare me. And I don't scare easily. Wow.


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## Scott (23 Dec 2006)

Kamaro said:
			
		

> I don't know where "not eating" came into this thread,



It was a jab relating to this thread.



			
				Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd suggest that you go through this very "basic" of training with the very 'basics".  You'll lose nary a limb or digit.  And, if nothing else, it will highlight to you the limitations of some of our "wonderful" kit.



Exactly.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Dec 2006)

Something for those advocating the use of only issued kit, all the time:

"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt."


http://www.phespirit.info/montypython/four_yorkshiremen.htm


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## vonGarvin (23 Dec 2006)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Something for those advocating the use of only issued kit, all the time:
> 
> "You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt."


For TRAINED troops who know what kit works for them, getting your personal kit in order is fine, and in fact I encourage it.  *FOR UNTRAINED NOOBS WHO HAVE TO BE WALKED TO DINNER, PUT TO BED AND WOKEN UP IN THE MORNING*, I will *NOT* trust them with their own kit in the field for one reason: *they are stupid and I know better*.  Full stop.  They are stupid, they will get frost bite, twisted ankles and other injuries, and when the investigation notes that they were wearing some "nomex stuff I read about on the internet", well, guess what happens.

Read your own sig line: " 'The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; *hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier.*' Napoleon"


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## mysteriousmind (23 Dec 2006)

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> For TRAINED troops who know what kit works for them, getting your personal kit in order is fine, and in fact I encourage it.  *FOR UNTRAINED NOOBS WHO HAVE TO BE WALKED TO DINNER, PUT TO BED AND WOKEN UP IN THE MORNING*, I will *NOT* trust them with their own kit in the field for one reason: *they are stupid and I know better*.  Full stop.  They are stupid, they will get frost bite, twisted ankles and other injuries, and when the investigation notes that they were wearing some "nomex stuff I read about on the internet", well, guess what happens.
> 
> Read your own sig line: " 'The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; *hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier.*' Napoleon"




I agre...The BMQ is to have every soldier under a certain uniformity...tu do the same thing, to think alike, to be up to STANDARD why should they get civilian things...under what goal does this action goes? Uniformity?, STANDARD?

Not to my point of view


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## navymich (23 Dec 2006)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> I agre...The BMQ is to have every soldier under a certain uniformity...tu do the same thing, to think alike, to be up to STANDARD why should they get civilian things...under what goal does this action goes? Uniformity?, STANDARD?



And yet, according to the students on BMQ that are posting in the thread, it is the instructors of their course(s) that are telling them to buy/bring civilian gear.   I concur with what Hauptmann said earlier, that they should experience it with the standard, issued gear.  I wonder then why they are being told to bring something else?  Does this follow some sort of concurrence that has led them to now have students supposedly "better" prepared?


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## Franko (23 Dec 2006)

I'll be chatting with one of their instructors tomorrow night over a few pints and get the lowdown on this topic.

It'll be interesting to see it from his POV. 

I'll be posting it here for all to see. Hopefully we can put this one to bed shortly thereafter.

Regards


----------



## navymich (23 Dec 2006)

RBD, do you have your list of questions besides this one?  Sounds like a long night and lots of pints!  ;D


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## George Wallace (23 Dec 2006)

People wonder why the Army issues gloves and mitts.  If any of you are wondering why your fingers get cold wearing gloves, think of how much heat one finger will generate, compared to four.  With all your fingers heating each other in mitts, they will stay warmer than if you were wearing gloves.  The time to learn how to and when to use your kit properly, is now.   Civilian gloves and mitts will be a luxury you can play with later.


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## mysteriousmind (23 Dec 2006)

I like to to some photographing...(hint : go see my web site) and takking picures in winter was hell. 

I found some mittens were 3 fingers are together and the inder has his own house... (figure of speach),  and I also use those mits for my civilian job...as a security agent... and even if I love those mits.. sure would be usefull for shooting... there is no way ill wear them with my uniform...they are black... they are just not standard issue items...

Respect the rules...wear what is issue. nothing more, nothing less.


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## te. crutch (23 Dec 2006)

http://911supply.ca/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=150&category_id=55&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=55

Granted it wasn't that cold when I went through Farmham, this is what i wore when we were allowed and I never had any issues with dexterity or thermal properties...........


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## Franko (23 Dec 2006)

airmich said:
			
		

> RBD, do you have your list of questions besides this one?  Sounds like a long night and lots of pints!  ;D



Oh my yes!

So many to debunk and bring to the attention of one of the staff, one on one....I can't pass it up.

I'll find out if it's as bad as some have said here.

Needless to say, he'll probably go back to St Jean armed with some info and possibly sort out the concerns of some of the members have posted. I've known him for 18 years and he's the type of guy that if he says he'll look into it....he will.

As for a long night of pints, this is what I have available:

- 8 x Boddingtons (to warm up the stomach)

The main course:

- 3 x 40 oz bottles of Scotch of varying tastes
- 1 x Jack Daniels
- 1 x Crown Royal
- 8 x bottles of white wine (mostly German)
- 3 x bottles of red (Niagara / Italian)
- 1 x bottle of Strawberry wine....for the ladies.
- and 4 bottles of assorted Champagne / Sparkling wine

Needless to say the spirits will be flowing and the car keys will be locked away for safe keeping until the morning.

It should be a night of merriment.        :blotto:

Regards


----------



## Scott (23 Dec 2006)

airmich said:
			
		

> And yet, according to the students on BMQ that are posting in the thread, it is the instructors of their course(s) that are telling them to buy/bring civilian gear.



This brings up a good point. If they are being told to do this then it would seem silly for them to just use the issued kit and suffer, would it not? Why stand when you can sit and so on...



> I concur with what Hauptmann said earlier, that they should experience it with the standard, issued gear.



100% with you on that!


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## 17thRecceSgt (23 Dec 2006)

airmich said:
			
		

> And yet, according to the students on BMQ that are posting in the thread, it is the instructors of their course(s) that are telling them to buy/bring civilian gear.   I concur with what Hauptmann said earlier, that they should experience it with the standard, issued gear.  I wonder then why they are being told to bring something else?  Does this follow some sort of concurrence that has led them to now have students supposedly "better" prepared?



Maybe the instr's are seeing the students wearing the old cmbt gloves, knowing they can't be issued the CWW glove that they have, and they know how much they suck.  Or the old cmbt jacket, while the staff is in the GORTEC CADPAT ICES/ICS (whichever) jacket and know how much the old cmbt jacket sucked...

Can anyone weigh in here from the Supply side as to why the SI for Recruits doesn't include even the latest and greatest kit the System gives us?  As I stated, lots of posts on this forum are about how crappy/sub-standard this "new" kit that is issued is...from the TV...to the CADPAT Gortex stuff...boots...etc etc.  I am wondering where the driving force of the SI for recruits in trng doesn't include the new kit...


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## Hot Lips (23 Dec 2006)

Well RBD that ought to be an accurate recount of your discussion after consuming that much alcohol :...
What you will find, as I have recently experienced, is that there isn't necessarily a standard from platoon to platoon...what one is doing the others may not be...
We had four IAP/BOTP courses going through when I did and there were differences just between our platoons regarding what was "standard"
As well, the kit being issued is old and outdated by present standards...our combat jackets were made in the 70s...now you may say, "that is what we wore"...well hey I believe every generation should want the best for the next generation...I know my grandfather, a WWII vet, used to say and believe just that  
I understand as well, from the staff I had at CFLRS, that the CO is working hard to ensure that recruits have the opportunity to train with the newest, best kit available and newer kit will be seen soon at CFLRS as a result of this forward thinking.

"Train the way you fight, fight the way you train"

HL


----------



## Franko (23 Dec 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Well RBD that ought to be an accurate recount of your discussion after consuming that much alcohol :...



I didn't say that we were going to drink all of it       

MRM knows the two of us....now that we've aged a bit I'll be surprised if we can get done the ales and a few shots of Scotch. I know my liver can't handle it like it used to.

Needless to say he'll probably recant what you've said, but again, with a staff perspective...reasons why the things are the way they are. 

Recruits only see it from their POV without knowing the full story.

Now onto clothing...

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with having the recruits go through with the newer kit, give them a period of getting to know it's limitations and proper usage prior to getting to their new unit.

Regards


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## vonGarvin (24 Dec 2006)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> As for a long night of pints, this is what I have available:
> 
> - 8 x Boddingtons (to warm up the stomach)
> 
> ...



Have you alerted the Hospital to have a stomach pump handy?


----------



## KevinB (24 Dec 2006)

Sigh -- I'm a huge kit slut... But interestingly enough I seemed to have survived my formative years in issue kit.
 It was not until later (since the net was not around then) that the US Rain Jacket was obivous.  
Gloves, socks, etc came later during exchanges and personal trial and error.

 We slogged thru a number of places a lot shittier than a week of camping by the fire (at the farce that substitutes for Basic these days) that this thread has inspired.

The CF issues a number of excellent handwear items
Trigger finger mitts as was mentioned earlier
The green leather outer and salt and pepper inner (I love those)
The Arctic Snot wiper mitts 
Anti Contact gloves (worn inside the Arctice mitts -- and some times the salt and peppers)

The Black Combat gloves -- not so good -- I though they were replaced by the Green "Yugoslavian Gardening Glove" 


In my years of experience I found the best way to stay warm is to get posted to a warm place :-*


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## vonGarvin (24 Dec 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> In my years of experience I found the best way to stay warm is to get posted to a warm place :-*



And that is probably the BEST way to stay warm!


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## KevinB (24 Dec 2006)

;D I'm a plethora of knowledge (albiet most of it utterly useless)


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## armyvern (24 Dec 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> The Black Combat gloves -- not so good -- I though they were replaced by the Green "Yugoslavian Gardening Glove"


By the mortar glove and the cadpat combat glove. Kicker is that entitlements to most CTS (Clothe the Soldier) items does not begin until successful completion of QL3/PhIV trg. 

Vern

MRM,

In response to an earlier post by you regarding students getting inferior kit. Can we please STOP babying students? Thousands of troops made it through their training and tours in Bosnia etc with that 'inferior" kit and managed to make it through some pretty rough winter exs in Pet with it at -45. 

Yes we have gortex now, in limited qtys and high-operational demand, guess who then goes to the bottom of the entitlement pile? Lacking this kit will not cause them to fail, die or be unsuccessful where thousands of soldiers before them have prevailed using that same kit. 

Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.


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## KevinB (24 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> MRM,
> 
> In response to an earlier post by you regarding students getting inferior kit. Can we please STOP babying students? Thousands of troops made it through their training and tours in Bosnia etc with that 'inferior" kit and managed to make it through some pretty rough winter exs in Pet with it at -45.
> 
> ...



+1
Great post BTW

I'm all for giving the best kit we can -- but operational needs take priority.

I still think troops in basic and BattleSchool should have stayed in the OD combats to use the stock up ...


----------



## mysteriousmind (24 Dec 2006)

As always, The Librarian speaks with wisdom!


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (24 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> By the mortar glove and the cadpat combat glove. Kicker is that entitlements to most CTS (Clothe the Soldier) items does not begin until successful completion of QL3/PhIV trg.
> 
> Vern
> 
> ...



Well now...I am not saying baby them.  I AM saying...while students are using the older kit, their staff, who is NOT operational, is standing beside them in the gucchi stuff.  Giving people the best kit is not babying them.  Its giving them them the best kit.  What I was looking for was the reason it is not on the SI for trainee's.  I thought maybe you would be able to quote the policy type thing, as opposed to...re-word the meaning of my post to "babying"  ;D.

I see your point, no one will die, but..I never said that.  I am not advocating for excuses for the students.  I am also one of those who used the older kit, and we did what we had to, to make it work the best we could.  

I am saying...if possible, when possible, we should be giving our troops the best we can.  If thats not the case, then lets ship some horses, bedrolls and muskets to all the units and tell them to get on with it.   

Of course operational takes priority.  If you are saying thats the reason we don't have enough to go around, thats what I was looking for.  I know...the Air Force purchased the ICES/ICE kit on mass for all its people, and the army did it "little by little", so maybe its the case of one being smarter than the other?

Let's not start reading things into other(mine for instance ) people's posts here, and then replying as if they are saying things they aren't.  Its Christmas Eve afterall!   ;D

So AV, is the reason they don't have it issued because of a national shortage of CADPAT Gortex kit?  The same for...CWW gloves...Gortex socks...etc?  I am just missing the logic behind the SI they are using up there.  You, as a student, are entitled to...a new CADPAT Bivy bag, but not Gortex socks.  WTF?  I am looking for the method to the madness...and of course, will be looking out for the welfare of my troops.  "Because" is not an answer to me when asking "why can't my troops get Gortex socks but they can get a Bivy bag when they are sleeping in tents".


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## George Wallace (24 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Perhaps it's time we all stopped giving the students reasons to excuse their shortcomings, and actually gave them a little credit; as in we passed the same courses with that kit, so can they. We all need to carry on already, they'll live.



That 'inferior' kit has kept people nice and snug and warm in Alert all these past sixty odd years.  It kept us warm on seven day patrols out of Pond Inlet on the north end of Baffin Island in December.  

Young kids today just don't know how to 'rough it' and have been babied too much.


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## George Wallace (24 Dec 2006)

MRM

The Air Force did not issue ICE to all its people.  Many of them on Cbt Arms Bases are still not entitled to some of the ICE items.  The Air Force did purchase the CADPAT Rain Gear, which all Army and Navy are not entitled to.  It works both ways.

As for the Instructors wearing all the 'Gucchi' kit while instructing (Librarian has pretty much explained why people on Basic haven't got any), in most instances they have pretty much the same kit as the students.  When they leave their Cbt Arms Units, they have to turn in most of their 'Gucchi' kit.  So you have stepped over your bounds there.  What they may have still is what is being slowly issued to all.  That the Training System is last to have it filtered down to should not concern any.  We are talking about people who have not seen it before, and if they fail will never see it.  Once the Operational personnel have their issue, then worry about the others in descending order.......and guess where the Recruit is.  

Enough with the whinning.  It looks bad when it comes from those with some TI.


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Dec 2006)

Its not whining.

How's this sound.  We'll see what kit I get issued when I RFD to the unit in question?  Stepped out of my bounds?  Not so.  I was told this by a Reg Frce instructor, at his house, and seen the kit.  This is a Reg Frce Navy type I might add.  Guess what kit he got issued?  And he didn't get it while posted out West either...so I think my source's of info are pretty good.  I saw it in his basement not 2 weeks ago while I was there.  Maybe I was dreaming?

Whining is not the same as asking questions and looking for reasons.  If someone can logically tell me why I can't, as a student, get Gortex socks but I can get a big-a$$ bivy bag....to sleep in a tent with... :


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## daftandbarmy (24 Dec 2006)

Most of our new recruits are Gen Y. Here's a good description of what they're like. 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2005-11-06-gen-y_x.htm

This will present us 'old farts' with a host of new leadership challenges. Will they settle for second best kit and command and control leadership styles, or will they try us out,  put up with the BS for the minimum amount of time, and then bail on us after we've spent a fortune equipping and training them?

I hear from my contacts in the recruiting world that recruiting is not our problem, it's retention. Many civilian companies are facing the same problem. Who knows? Maybe we should make sure the new people get the best stuff while we 'tough old farts' make do with the 'jean jackets' etc. And wouldn't that be a great example of leadership by example and looking after the least expereinced troops first? 

Now there's a paradigm shifter for you....


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## armyvern (24 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I am saying...if possible, when possible, we should be giving our troops the best we can.  If thats not the case, then lets ship some horses, bedrolls and muskets to all the units and tell them to get on with it.
> 
> Of course operational takes priority.  If you are saying thats the reason we don't have enough to go around, thats what I was looking for.  I know...the Air Force purchased the ICES/ICE kit on mass for all its people, and the army did it "little by little", so maybe its the case of one being smarter than the other?



Which is exactly what we are doing at this point in time...that's why they get some of the new kit and don't get some of the other. As it becomes available, the restrictions get lifted and it filters down to the students.

Perhaps you may think smarter may come into play regarding the elemnents, but I can think of a couple of major deployed reasons as to why the army it is in short supply at this point in time, and to the same reasons for Army budget having a vastly different priority than the AF currently.


			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Let's not start reading things into other(mine for instance ) people's posts here, and then replying as if they are saying things they aren't.  Its Christmas Eve afterall!   ;D


Read my post again. It clearly says "we" and not you specificly. 


			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> So AV, is the reason they don't have it issued because of a national shortage of CADPAT Gortex kit?  The same for...CWW gloves...Gortex socks...etc?  I am just missing the logic behind the SI they are using up there.  You, as a student, are entitled to...a new CADPAT Bivy bag, but not Gortex socks.  WTF?  I am looking for the method to the madness...and of course, will be looking out for the welfare of my troops.  "Because" is not an answer to me when asking "why can't my troops get Gortex socks but they can get a Bivy bag when they are sleeping in tents".


See my response above. There is also a myriad of threads going regarding the reasons behind specific entitlements and shortfalls. I won't get into them again. Suffice it to say, this information regarding these is also contained in a myriad of national messages that are available. Routine Orders (still a mandatory read by all serving members) is also a very good source of info regarding kit entitlements, shortfalls and ops restrictions, many of these shortfalls/restrictions have been published many times over...but people are still asking the same questions over and over and over again, instead of reading. Sometimes, I just don't know why they even bother to cut AIGs and publish ROs anymore.


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## armyvern (24 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Whining is not the same as asking questions and looking for reasons.  If someone can logically tell me why I can't, as a student, get Gortex socks but I can get a big-a$$ bivy bag....to sleep in a tent with... :



Because, as per the AIG message, published here locally in those mandatory Routine Orders, gortex socks are currently ops restricted due to high Op tempo. The same is not applicable to cadpat bivy bags. Explanation enough?


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## DirtyDog (24 Dec 2006)

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> For TRAINED troops who know what kit works for them, getting your personal kit in order is fine, and in fact I encourage it.  *FOR UNTRAINED NOOBS WHO HAVE TO BE WALKED TO DINNER, PUT TO BED AND WOKEN UP IN THE MORNING*, I will *NOT* trust them with their own kit in the field for one reason: *they are stupid and I know better*.  Full stop.  They are stupid, they will get frost bite, twisted ankles and other injuries, and when the investigation notes that they were wearing some "nomex stuff I read about on the internet", well, guess what happens.
> 
> Read your own sig line: " 'The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; *hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier.*' Napoleon"



Well, seeing as how I started this thread, let me elaborate from my point of view.

Firstly, although I'm new to the military game, at nearly 30 years of age, I'm not a senseless child.  I've been a farmer my whole life, a hunter/outdoorsman, and for the last nearly 10 years I've been a construction worker/contractor.  The field (in the civilian sense), the outdoors, and harsh conditions are not something new to me by any means and I've always thought I've handled myself well.  

I came here to ask a simple question.  Although I'm familiar with different condtions and which gloves are usually suited for what, I guess I was looking for some uber-milspec tactical kit that I havn't heard of as a mere civy.  And I was only looking for the best suggestions because we were instructed that were allowed our own gloves and I was looking for the best available kit so that I might gain an upper hand out in the field however trivial that may be during training.  Not because I can't function with what they give us or that I'm being a wuss.

Thanks for the advice though......


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## DirtyDog (24 Dec 2006)

Kamaro said:
			
		

> I just finished bmq... we had a good time in some very cold weather, on the last couple of weeks.
> 
> We were issued the "mortar" gloves and the big arctic mitts. When you're on patrol, that sorta thing, all you needed was a $1 walmart cotton glove liner inside the mortar gloves to keep you fairly warm. After the first k of a march you don't have to worry about being cold any more.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice.  Pretty much what i had anticipated.

However, I must ask..... if you just finished BMQ, how is it that encountered any "very cold weather"?  I don't recall any weather in the last 2 months that was exceptionally cold in the Montreal area.


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## vonGarvin (24 Dec 2006)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Well, seeing as how I started this thread, let me elaborate from my point of view.
> 
> Firstly, although I'm new to the military game, at nearly 30 years of age, I'm not a senseless child.  I've been a farmer my whole life, a hunter/outdoorsman, and for the last nearly 10 years I've been a construction worker/contractor.  The field (in the civilian sense), the outdoors, and harsh conditions are not something new to me by any means and I've always thought I've handled myself well.
> 
> ...


Dirty Dog:
I didn't have you in mind when I posted above.  Now, in some cases, there will indeed be those recruits who, irrespective of age, have experience in proper kit to be worn in inclement weather.  Having said that, one purpose of Recruit training is to instill uniformity and discipline unlike anything anyone has seen.  Now you personally may know what is good and what isn't, but you must acknowledge that all recruits must be treated equally.


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## TN2IC (24 Dec 2006)

papatango said:
			
		

> Don't forget; lightweight synthetics melt easily, take that into account when handling things like kit stoves & vehicles.



Rifles too...  

I know I am a late Bloomer here. But I would like to say...I used the Arctic mittens while in the field and I would have my OD liners inside of them. So when it came time to fire a round....ta da! Once done...back in they go! Just my two cents... like mine count any ways...  


Cheers,
TN2IC


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## NL_engineer (24 Dec 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Sigh -- I'm a huge kit slut...



Who ever would have guessed ;D

To the original poster, Wal-Mart sells neoprene gloves for around $20.00.  I used to use them (destroyed them on an ex), and I know a number of people that swear by them.  

For the price, if they get destroyed, or you hate them, there is no great loss to your bank account.

just my two cents


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## DirtyDog (24 Dec 2006)

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> Dirty Dog:
> I didn't have you in mind when I posted above.  Now, in some cases, there will indeed be those recruits who, irrespective of age, have experience in proper kit to be worn in inclement weather.  Having said that, one purpose of Recruit training is to instill uniformity and discipline unlike anything anyone has seen.  Now you personally may know what is good and what isn't, but you must acknowledge that all recruits must be treated equally.



Yes, quite true.  Teamwork, discipline, and uniformity are 3 big ones that come to mind when thinking of BMQ.

I didn't mean to take your post so personally, but I guess the Christmas leave has gave me too much time to think and sometimes resent being lumped in with some of the other recruits (as I should be in some cases), young and old alike, who really are quite naive and clueless, look for an easy way out, and are whining constantly.  Not that I am the pefect recruit by any means.


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## lostrover (24 Dec 2006)

As some have previously mentioned, the issued kit (especially today) is amazing.  I as thousand of others survied wearing issused kit for many years, did I get cold......yes............did I get wet.....yes.  With all the fancy high-tech gear today...does one still get wet...yes.........stil cold...yes!  First piece of privately purchsed kit.....and American rain jacket, a few years later a pair of goretex socks, and a bivy bag, apart from that thats pretty much all I bought (but of course spent many years developing my brew kit).  The kit we have regardless of age does its job, yes it can be supplemented in some instances.  Take the time to use and learn about the kit you are issued, for one day in theatre your "gucci" kit won't be replaceable and you will have to revert to issue only kit.  How so many of us soldiered without Gore-Tex is astounding (yes I am being very sarcastic).


----------



## Franko (25 Dec 2006)

*Time to dispel some rumours and BS....*

Got the lowdown on the gloves and kit issue from my visitor last night....he's an instructor.

What the Librarian said was spot on....go figure coming from a SME.      

There is currently a spike of recruits going through and the supply system can't issue something that they have out of stock.

Recruits are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to stuff like Gortex socks (for the same reasons that AV stated) however, bivvy bags are in stock and they are getting them issued.

The spike is going to continue until the near future and the supply system will catch up. For the recruits going through right now...oh well. Get used to it.

_Some_ of the instructors have said that they would allow conservative looking garments in the field to supplement the equipment that they have been issued. 

Also, he advises that recruits that are there or are on the way there soon... keep a grip on their kit because LDR can be submitted, but replacement kit probably wouldn't be issued until they reached their new unit....again, shortages.

Now onto the next bone of contention.....*feeding.*

The chow lines (mentioned in other threads) it's usually because the recruits are late for timings and hold up their platoons for feeding. One guy late holds everyone up.

There are plenty of cooks and staff ready and able to feed everyone. *It's up to the individual to stand in cue and get the grub.*

They are allotted ( in the schedules) plenty of time to eat.....period.



Regards


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (25 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Which is exactly what we are doing at this point in time...that's why they get some of the new kit and don't get some of the other. As it becomes available, the restrictions get lifted and it filters down to the students.
> 
> Perhaps you may think smarter may come into play regarding the elemnents, but I can think of a couple of major deployed reasons as to why the army it is in short supply at this point in time, and to the same reasons for Army budget having a vastly different priority than the AF currently.Read my post again. It clearly says "we" and not you specificly. See my response above. There is also a myriad of threads going regarding the reasons behind specific entitlements and shortfalls. I won't get into them again. Suffice it to say, this information regarding these is also contained in a myriad of national messages that are available. Routine Orders (still a mandatory read by all serving members) is also a very good source of info regarding kit entitlements, shortfalls and ops restrictions, many of these shortfalls/restrictions have been published many times over...but people are still asking the same questions over and over and over again, instead of reading. Sometimes, I just don't know why they even bother to cut AIGs and publish ROs anymore.



Thats what I was looking for...the "reason".  Having been where I was for 4+ years, I never saw anything in ROs about kit.  From a "end-user" perspective, I like the quick and dirty on the reasons, and maybe a "go read Msg X"...and off I would go.  I have asked before, to my former CoC and gotten nodda back.  I found out about the restriction on the thermal underwear when I when to trade a set in...so passage of info in my former unit WRT stuff like this appears to be...ya.

Hopefully, with my change of units, I will be in the loop on all this stuff. (read haul my head out of my arse).  ;D

Oh.  Our "Base Sub-stores" in the Hfx Armouries is staffed mostly by folks from FLog...they are good people but used to the Navy side of the house, and getting info on "army kit" there was 'bout the same as the HQ was   .  Understaffed and lots to do, the same as lots of folks.


----------



## TN2IC (25 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Oh.  Our "Base Sub-stores" in the Hfx Armouries is staffed mostly by folks from FLog...they are good people but used to the Navy side of the house, and getting info on "army kit" there was 'bout the same as the HQ was   .  Understaffed and lots to do, the same as lots of folks.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wait a mintue...FLog? That's moi! ;D


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Dec 2006)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Wait a mintue...FLog? That's moi! ;D



Then you know what I am talking about   ;D


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## TN2IC (25 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Then you know what I am talking about   ;D



Quick put our Militia Rings together to join forces!!!!  ;D


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## Armymedic (25 Dec 2006)

Seeing how the original question has been answered.....

In the spirit of Christmas.... SHUT UP!

We have fellow troops out there sleeping on the line, getting their Christmas dinner on the back ramps of LAVs while wearing full armour and toting loaded weapons...worrying if they'll see tomorrow, let alone home in a few months.

Your problems at recruit school are not unique, nor insurmountable.

Now go quiet.


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## Franko (26 Dec 2006)

In the spirit of the last post....I'll grant your Christmas wish....

LOCKED.

Regards


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## runormal (11 Feb 2016)

I'm going up ''north'' with the reserves for a week shortly, I've been told to that it will be around -40ish. On the practice weekend I used my mortar gloves and while good I noticed if they get wet at all they freeze and are ''useless'' I'm looking for a similiar pair to have for a back up. I've asked around my unit and the general consenus is to go to MEC and buy a pair a gloves. I'm looking for something thin, warm and durable... Does anyone any suggestions of what to buy or what not to buy?


I searched and found this, but it was fairly dated and locked.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/54843.75.html

Thanks


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## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2016)

Join the arcteryx LEAF program and you can get a pair of  $289.00 _Cold WX Glove SV's_   for $231.20 	

they have some other lighter gloves which are more dexterious too like the Cold WX contact or Cold WX glove AR.  $73.00/$58.40 and $229.00/$183.20 respectively.


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## Arty39 (11 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Join the arcteryx LEAF program and you can get a pair of  $289.00 _Cold WX Glove SV's_   for $231.20
> 
> they have some other lighter gloves which are more dexterious too like the Cold WX contact or Cold WX glove AR.  $73.00/$58.40 and $229.00/$183.20 respectively.



$231 for a pair of gloves for field use?????????? : Go MEC, Sport Chek or any outdoor store and buy something just as good for half the price.


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## Jarnhamar (11 Feb 2016)

MEC isn't known for being very military friendly.  On the other hand they have some nice heated gloves for $350 +  ;D


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## runormal (13 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Join the arcteryx LEAF program and you can get a pair of  $289.00 _Cold WX Glove SV's_   for $231.20
> 
> they have some other lighter gloves which are more dexterious too like the Cold WX contact or Cold WX glove AR.  $73.00/$58.40 and $229.00/$183.20 respectively.



I appreciate the detail in your post.

The $200 gloves are a bit out of my price range for the amount of time I'll use them. 

I'm going to look into the cheaper WX gloves, if anyone has any other suggestions let me know.


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## willy (13 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> MEC isn't known for being very military friendly.  On the other hand they have some nice heated gloves for $350 +  ;D



MEC may draw heavily on the hipster crowd when sourcing its employees, but that being said they have a 15% military discount, and I have never had any issues with anyone being less than friendly in there.



			
				runormal said:
			
		

> I'm going up ''north'' with the reserves for a week shortly, I've been told to that it will be around -40ish. On the practice weekend I used my mortar gloves and while good I noticed if they get wet at all they freeze and are ''useless'' I'm looking for a similiar pair to have for a back up. I've asked around my unit and the general consenus is to go to MEC and buy a pair a gloves. I'm looking for something thin, warm and durable... Does anyone any suggestions of what to buy or what not to buy?



Here's what I think you need to consider:

- At -40C your gloves will not be getting wet that often.  Everything is frozen solid, so there isn't as much moisture around to make them wet.

- That said, they will eventually get wet, and the only way to deal with that is to have spares, just like you have spare socks

- What you're looking for is a pair of anti-contact gloves to wear while working, to complement the arctic mitts which you're going to use to actually keep your hands warm.  Look for something lightweight, fast drying, and which fits your hand well so that you can work while wearing it.  Also look for something cheap.  These gloves are going to get destroyed.

A quick look at the MEC website shows several types at less than $30/pr that might fit the bill.  I myself wear Mechanix gloves and I get them at crappy tire.

If you're talking about a glove to replace the arctic mitt or CWW glove then that's a different conversation.  But since you seem to be talking about anti-contact gloves, buy cheap, buy lots, carry spares.


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## MJP (13 Feb 2016)

Willy said:
			
		

> If you're talking about a glove to replace the arctic mitt or CWW glove then that's a different conversation.  But since you seem to be talking about anti-contact gloves, buy cheap, buy lots, carry spares.



Quite possibly the best post in here.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Feb 2016)

MJP said:
			
		

> Quite possibly the best post in here.



Agreed. Our arctic mitt is probably the best in the world for 20 below on down. Find a good liner glove, thin wool is the best if you can get them, and carry spares.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Feb 2016)

Something like these, to go inside the arctic mitts that are issued?

http://www.mec.ca/product/5008-394/auclair-polypro-liner-gloves-unisex/?Ns=p_min_sale_price&h=10+50089+50020+52436+50111&f=10+50089+50111  [ I have had these, they are decent ]

https://www.marks.com/en/categories/mens/accessories/gloves/product/thermolite-white-liner-gloves-32004.html#32004%5Bcolor%5D=WHITE

Thin enough to wear inside the mitt complete, some protection to your hands when you have to doff the mitt for something in this colder temps.  Cheap enough to buy 2-3 pair.

If you are looking for a pair of additional gloves, reasonably priced, warm and 'convervative' enough to wear with issued kit...my wife got me a pair of these for the winter I had to spend in Winnipeg (6 years ago).  Still going strong, warm gloves.  I used them with the snowblower and never get frozen fingers.  Only wish, they were more of a gauntlet type design but...awesome awesome gloves for the price.

https://www.marks.com/en/categories/mens/accessories/gloves/product/t-maxhyper-dri-gloves-32053.html#32053%5Bcolor%5D=BLACK


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## runormal (20 Feb 2016)

Thanks for everyone's posts it was really helpful. 

Just to confirm, I am looking for anti contact so it looks like I'll buy a few cheap pairs. 

@EYE thanks for the $30 Marks gloves I think I'll pick up a pair for civy side as well  ;D

@Willy - Thanks for the detail in that post it was really helpful. I do see a lot of guys wearing the mechanics gloves in the field.


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## runormal (6 Mar 2016)

Figured I'd update this thread in the event that someone searches for it later.

I ended spending a bunch of money at MEC before I went, and to be honest it was some of the best money I spent. The 15% discount isn't bad either.

I bought these

MEC SÖCHE MIDWEIGHT GLOVES (UNISEX)
http://www.mec.ca/product/5034-362/mec-soche-midweight-gloves-unisex/?q=gloves

They were surprisingly warm and held up fairly well, got a bit beat up on the finger ripping out a frozen tent peg, I bought two pairs of these and some other smaller liner gloves but never ended up trying them because these worked very well. I would highly recommend these gloves to anyone who wants a decent, cheap, warm, contact glove.


I also bought a pair of these, but never bothered to test them because the others worked so well.  

MEC GÖTO FLEECE GLOVES (UNISEX)
http://www.mec.ca/product/5034-354/mec-goto-fleece-gloves-unisex/?Ntk=productsearch_en_q32008&h=10&q=gloves



Thanks to everyone who posted advice, it was extremely helpful.


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