# abuse of power



## aj_olsen (13 Dec 2004)

are higher ranked cadets allowed to get given a direct order to do some thing then pass it down


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## Inch (13 Dec 2004)

Care to elaborate? That's a pretty vague question.


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## aj_olsen (13 Dec 2004)

he was told to clean the head then he took a shit in it before making someone else clean it


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## Inch (13 Dec 2004)

Still, are we talking about a WO or Sgt? In which case they usually delegate the task downwards, that's how the chain of command works (ie, "WO, get this washroom cleaned"). If they were tasked directly to do it for some reason, then it's poor leadership to pass the buck ("WO, clean this washroom").

clear as mud?


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## ouyin2000 (13 Dec 2004)

just to elabourate for my own understanding 

If a Senior NCO is tasked to do something (IE Clean the washrooms) then usually they will delegate the task to a couple of cadets and personally supervise the cleaning...now if they were tasked to do it themselves as part of a disciplinary action, then it is poor leadership...not only on their part, but on the person that tasked them's part, because they should have been able to follow up on the discipline, to ensure that the Senior NCO was actually cleaning it themselves


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## Inch (13 Dec 2004)

ARMYboi, I'm not sure what leadership classes you've taken, but "paying your dues" has nothing to do with it. That kind of thinking leads to hazing and initiation rites. If a leader is not willing to do the job himself, he shouldn't pass it on for that reason. You lead by example, plain and simple.

You pass the job on since that's how the chain of command works, it's not passed down just because you don't want to do it yourself. It's not a means of "getting someone back for what you endured", that's called hazing and it's not tolerated. 

From Webster's : Hazing - a : to harass by exacting unnecessary or disagreeable work


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## Inch (13 Dec 2004)

You just don't get it. Get some TI and tell me if your opinion changes.


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## aesop081 (13 Dec 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> That's not even close to hazing.   The RSM or WO that is giving you the order has done it enough for the Corps, and therefore has the power to pass it on.



I pray to god you never get a leadership position in this man's military.......you need some serious leadership training !!!!   Your logic is the perfect example of piss-poor leadership !!

Note: I use the LEADERSHIP word alot in this post............hint, hint
go read the principles of LEADERSHIP............


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## aesop081 (13 Dec 2004)

TI = Time In....

you would know that if you had any


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## sgt_mandal (14 Dec 2004)

O man, I can only imagine him giving orders, "clean the 'head', I had to, now its your turn", "Polish your boots, I had to, now you do it.", "GROW UP! I had to, your turn." (well maybe in a few years)


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## aesop081 (14 Dec 2004)

No, i didnt take it the wrong way.  You dont have a clue what you are talking about, You have zero relevant experience to back-up you argument and you don't have enough common sense to listen to people who KNOW !!  I have lead troops and i never asked any of them to do something i would not  do myself and if it involved something hazardous..i lead the way.  Simple fact is that you do not delegate something unpleasant because you did it enough when you were a junior.....you delegate it because as a supervisor it is not your job to do it.......


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## aj_olsen (14 Dec 2004)

we are talking about a private giving another private orders



and i am in a leadership role im my sections commander


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## aesop081 (14 Dec 2004)

Last time i checked...leadership had nothing to do with rank !  I was a one hook at one time and having to direct other privates....i still didnt ask anyone to do a job i would not do myself.

Do not confuse rank with leadership...they do not always go hand-in-hand


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## Burrows (14 Dec 2004)

well said aesop...enough with the armyboi flaming...but yes armyboi...please do follow their advice...


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## gt102 (14 Dec 2004)

A good peice of advise... whether you are a pvt or a cwo, If you are gonna task some cadets to do something do it aswell. It keeps moral at a better level and it keeps you from looking like a bad leader because you are following the principals


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## primer (14 Dec 2004)

The last time I have checked about cdts cleaning washrooms was no more.They must have  WHIMIS to handle the chemicals use to clean the rest rooms. Sounds like an unlawful order


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## dano (14 Dec 2004)

That is assuming Cadets are using chemicals to clean washrooms.
And that is yet to be confirmed.... Confirm it anyone?


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## gt102 (14 Dec 2004)

most of the time (or atleast in my corp) the cadets just end up mopping the floor, we leave the full fledged cleaning to profesionals


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## Peace_Keeper (14 Dec 2004)

well this time last year I was a cadet and orders to do stuff were given alot...passed down usally.....I did it without complaint, never had anything hard until a newly promoted cpl told me to stand at attention for no reason on free time. I told him no and he got all mad and went to a sgt. (what he told him I have no idea but) he laughed and then the cpl. walked off somewhere.


Now I'm a cpl and I try only to pass things that are minor (like go get this or that) and actual things which wouldn't be axactly enjoyable I do if its told to me and if its told to someone else they do it.....easy


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## ouyin2000 (14 Dec 2004)

well i remember when i was a MCpl/Sgt and i was given a tast to clean the washroom, or to perform a garbage sweep...i would task a bunch of cadets to assist me, and i would myself help them, as well as supervise

theres a fine line between doing the job yourself, and being too distant from the cadets in your supervisory role...i try to walk that line as best i can, so i am getting "down and dirty" with the cadets, leading by example, showing them exactly how to do the job right, and helping around as needed...while keeping myself distant enough to assist everyone, and keep an eye on whats going on

now about that WHIMIS thing, i am sure cadets are not allowed to handle heavy chemicals, because that would like be dangerous. my corps uses a map and water, and whatever soap is avaliable in the dispensors to assist if they feel it necesary, no harsh chemicals because nobody i know is qualified to handle them

at Vernon, a few years back, some cadets form D & C bought cleaning supplies from town, to assist them in cleaning the floor of their barracks...they mistakenly mixed them together and created a mustard type of noxious gas and they had to evacuate the building. luckily i dont think anyone was injured too severely


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## Sgt_McWatt (15 Dec 2004)

I relies that this has settled down but I just wanted to post that actual definition of leadership as written in the Reference Manual:

"Leadership is the art of influencing human behavior in order to accomplish a task in the manner desired by the leader."

Now if you want the task accomplished the desired way theres no way saying "I DID IT" will make them do a good job.


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## Franko (15 Dec 2004)

I just bumped a thread I started a while ago on this very subject.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/4353.0.html

Regards


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## cpl-cam (15 Dec 2004)

As was already said about WHIMIS and stuff, cadets just mop the floor, pretty much the only thing it accomplishes is the cadet experienceing a new level of nausia.

As for the delegation of work lets see if I can clarify it a bit.

I as a cpl. wouldn't pass the work down to a LAC just cause I had to do it on ITLC 3 times. I would do it if tasked to me as a duty and I would delegate it to a LAC if I was told to "ensure it was clean" because cpls have other things to do than clean the washroom. A WO can't do everything he's told to do hence the delegation he doesn't delegate it because he likes to see 12 year olds pushing mops around the bathroom.


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## aesop081 (15 Dec 2004)

Good post cameron...........


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## armygurl_557 (22 Dec 2004)

aj_olsen said:
			
		

> we are talking about a private giving another private orders
> 
> 
> 
> and i am in a leadership role im my sections commander



 If you are your sections Commander than why are you only a Pte?


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## Burrows (22 Dec 2004)

New corps or corps with massive recruit intakes can sometimes force ptes into Comd Jobs...Its just not promoting them like what happened to me until after camp...all the mouthy little buggers would talk back becasue they were the same rank even though theyd never actually been in the field etc.


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## cpl-cam (23 Dec 2004)

Burrows said:
			
		

> New corps or corps with massive recruit intakes can sometimes force ptes into Comd Jobs...Its just not promoting them like what happened to me until after camp...all the mouthy little buggers would talk back becasue they were the same rank even though theyd never actually been in the field etc.



A simpliar thing happened at my squadron. 
We are only in our 2nd year right now after a split from another squadron so we had corporals teaching classes and once or twice we had a corporal teaching a class of corporals.
Now we're in our second year and already have over 100 cadets so the rank balance is working out great.


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