# 27, MBA, B.Comm Econ, CFA - Fin. Logistics?



## jb_008 (19 Apr 2010)

Amazing site, great community, and lots of useful info! You all should be proud of helping to build this forum one post at a time. 

I am here in need of some input on my situation. The title says it all regarding my age and ecudation, but I really wonder what my competitive stance is in regard to the rest of the candidate pool for BOTP Logistics this year. The trade was closed pre-April 1st and now it's open with "limited places". I have limited experience in the finance industry (mainly sales). I graduated last June, and I do know quite a bit about financial management since that was what my MBA was all about. I do know from this site that the BOTP is geared towards recent university grads.

I did the CFAT in January. I guess I passed it and am scheduled for the medical as well. I am just putting my situation out here for more experienced people to comment on and possibly provide me with advice on what to expect. Perhaps even enlighten me on what my chances are. Maybe even highlight some of the advantages that set me apart from the competition, too. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


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## 54/102 CEF (20 Apr 2010)

Get in - learn the ropes - work hard and 5 years from now people will be flagging you for $$$$$$$$$$$ management at the top 

Or ...... DND is always recruiting Budget cutters - you`d do well spending or slashing!  

Good luck - you`ve certainly proved you can learn


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## jb_008 (21 May 2010)

Well, Logistics closed may 1st and I am not being considered for it.

As a result I sat down with family and came up with a list of 9 other trades I can serve my country as an officer. When i went to the recruitment center with the list the next day, the officer worked through the list and we picked 3 choices that were viable.

1) Pilot (I qualify)
2) MARS (5 spots open three weeks ago - probably closed now)
3) Aerospace control (I qualify)

The recruitment officer said that Pilot will be open because it is in demand. I already did my basic medical and have yet to do the Air medical because they are reviewing my laser eye surgery form. I understand that I won't be flying a plane full-time for about 7 years and that's ok with me.


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## Lex Parsimoniae (21 May 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> Well, Logistics closed may 1st and I am not being considered for it.
> 
> As a result I sat down with family and came up with a list of 9 other trades I can serve my country as an officer. When i went to the recruitment center with the list the next day, the officer worked through the list and we picked 3 choices that were viable.
> 
> ...


MARS will probably still have spots open - the trade is very short.  I also have a BComm and went MARS many years ago with no regrets.  The thrill of being on the bridge and driving a 5000 ton ship never gets old.


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## Pusser (22 May 2010)

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> The thrill of being on the bridge and driving a 5000 ton ship never gets old.



True, but I don't miss the middle watch one little bit.

Well it's another middle watch, another hair upon my chest
Just an hour or two 'til I can go and get some rest
The morning, dogs or afternoon, the forenoon or the first
Well there's none of them comes easy, but the middle is the worst

Tom Lewis


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## Lex Parsimoniae (22 May 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> True, but I don't miss the middle watch one little bit.


Each to their own - I loved the middle watch.  Maximum freedom of manoeuvre and minimum hassles.


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## jb_008 (22 May 2010)

So do they consider me for all trades at once? Or do they process Pilot first, then if I don't make that for some reason, they start processing me for MARS, etc...?


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## megany (22 May 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> Well, Logistics closed may 1st and I am not being considered for it.
> 
> As a result I sat down with family and came up with a list of 9 other trades I can serve my country as an officer. When i went to the recruitment center with the list the next day, the officer worked through the list and we picked 3 choices that were viable.
> 
> ...



I interviewed for MARS on May 6th and was informed that although there were 5 spots open they wouldn't be awarded until after the NOAB - the next of which is apparently scheduled for July.  

I'm not letting myself get bent out of shape about the number of spots left, especially since it's the position I really want!


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## jb_008 (19 Jun 2010)

Alright. So, here's the scoop so far. 

I am still being considered for pilot, which there are 49 spots still open.
My eyes were tested thoroughly at a private eye clinic (at the expense of the forces).
I did the ECG for my heart, lung X-ray, blood and urine test at the base in St. Jean. 

The Opthamologist who examined my eyes said there were no problems and that I should be ok for pilot. But she admitted the decision wasn't up to her. Regardless, good news on that part.
The tech who did my ECG said the same thing - that my heart looks fine and healthy.
As for the lungs, well I jog 7-10km 3 times a week, so they should be alright.
Blood test should hopefully come back fine. I don't do drugs and I don't drink, but I did have a shepard's pie the afternoon before... It was before the time I was required to fast, so I guess I'll be ok. I just hope it doesn't throw off my cholesterol level :O My mom's a nurse, she said it wouldn't be a problem, LOL.

So all this was done and completed on Tuesday the 15th. They told me they would send the results to the recruitment center in Mtl. I personally delivered the eye results the same day to the recruitment center. 

Has anyone here on this forum been this far in the selection process for Pilot? If so, how many weeks after the tests were completed did you get to move on to the next step? What is the next step, an interview or a physical fitness test? Thanks for reading!


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## 2010newbie (19 Jun 2010)

Here is the Application Process Samples thread:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/13064/post-929420.html#msg929420

Reply #1873 is my update showing the dates for the different stages. You could also search for other pilot samples within that thread to give you an idea. In addition, here is the "So you want to be a pilot...." thread:

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/12744.0.html

There is a ton of info there. 

If I remember correctly, after having the interview and medical completed, I was scheduled for Aircrew Selection in Trenton (Simulators) and Toronto (Medical). It was a few weeks before I was given the dates for the Aircrew Selection though. Once that was completed, my file went to the selection board and I received my offer in the end of March, pending my security clearance and Aircrew Medical Factor 1 being attained. In total it was 4.5 months from my initial application until I was offered a position. As for a physical fitness test, that is not done during the application process for Reg force applicants. It is done during the first week of BMOQ (CF EXPRES test).


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## jb_008 (19 Jun 2010)

Nice info, thanks  

I forgot to ask one VERY important question, though! 

If I am being considered for pilot, am I only being considered for roles where I sit in a cockpit? When you say "AirCrew selection", to me that sounds like roles other than pilot.


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## 2010newbie (19 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> If I am being considered for pilot, am I only being considered for roles where I sit in a cockpit?



Where else would the pilot sit??  

I don't know for certain what trades need to go through Aircrew selection, but I know that the pilot and ACSO trades require it. While at Aircrew selection they asked me if I wanted to write the ACSO written exams, which I declined. In hindsight I probably should have written them.

If pilot is the trade you are pursuing, then that is the trade you are being screened for. Is it possible that if you fail Aircrew Selection for pilot, but pass the requirements for ACSO, that you will be informed of this and asked if you would like to add ACSO to your trade list? I have absolutely no clue.


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## aesop081 (19 Jun 2010)

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Where else would the pilot sit??



How about the ground control station of a UAV.........



> I don't know for certain what trades need to go through Aircrew selection,



Pilot and ACSO. Thats it.


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## jb_008 (19 Jun 2010)

Given my progress in the selection process for Pilot, and my credientials, how likely is it that I will be offered a career as a pilot? 

How many people pass the AirCrew Selection simulator test?


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## aesop081 (19 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> how likely is it that I will be offered a career as a pilot?



Your chances are as good as anyone else.



> How many people pass the AirCrew Selection simulator test?



It will vary from serial to serial. Not very useful information.


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## jb_008 (19 Jun 2010)

So the forces spending money on me to do the tests doesn't mean that I am a good candidate?


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## aesop081 (19 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> So the forces spending money on me to do the tests doesn't mean that I am a good candidate?



Nope. It means you are *a* candidate.


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## 2010newbie (20 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> Given my progress in the selection process for Pilot, and my credientials, how likely is it that I will be offered a career as a pilot?
> 
> How many people pass the AirCrew Selection simulator test?



You really should search for some of the information before posting the questions. There is tons of info on the Aircrew Selection Course in these forums.

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/84427.0.html

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/36026/post-289720.html#msg289720

As CDN Aviator said, the pass rate varies from course to course. On my course the pass rate was 47%. About 60% of the candidates had previous flight experience. There were people with PPL's that failed and there were people with no flight experience that passed.


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## jb_008 (29 Jun 2010)

I'm getting tired of waiting for all of my medical files to come through. It's been two weeks now since I completed all my tests and they are still waiting (for some odd reason) for me to deliver files to the recruitment center. I delivered my eye exam results in person and the ECG, lung X-ray, blood, and urine tests were to be sent by the base to the recruiting center. I am also not looking forward to the 7 years of learning I will have to do to become a Pilot. 

I want to serve my country as an officer, asap.

That being said, would a more appropriate route be to tell the forces to stop considering me for pilot and focus on MARS instead?

Can I apply to the reserves in the meantime?


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## aesop081 (29 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> I'm getting tired of waiting for all of my medical files to come through. It's been two weeks



 :crybaby:



> I am also not looking forward to the 7 years of learning I will have to do to become a Pilot.



Great attitude to start with.  :



> I want to serve my country as an officer, asap.



asap = when the selection process has run its course and you have been selected. Until then........


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## Beech Boy (29 Jun 2010)

As a DEO Pilot candidate that originally applied in October 2007 and just recently (a couple of months ago) received a job offer, my opinion is that you should switch trades. If you are getting tired of waiting already, this career path is not for you. I have no direct knowledge of how quick you can become trade qualified as MARS, but I am sure it would be significantly faster than becoming a Pilot. If your primary concern is serving your country as an officer, asap, Pilot is not the best path.

With that said, I am overjoyed that I decided to wait and that I am finally getting an opportunity to pursue my dream job... I guess it comes down to what your priorities are.

On a side note, 2010newbie has given you very valuable links within this site that go in depth answering the majority (if not all) of the questions you've asked.

Best of luck,

Beech


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## jb_008 (29 Jun 2010)

Hi Beech! Thanks for the insight. It was well expressed, sounded very mature and reflected an air of professionalism that is becomming of an officer in the military. I look forward to working with people of your stature. I will go to the recruitment center tomorrow or on thursday to clarify what the wait and career training times are for each trade I am interested in. Thanks!


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## aesop081 (29 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> Less can be said for the post prior to yours.



I'm crushed.


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## hold_fast (29 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> I'm getting tired of waiting for all of my medical files to come through. It's been two weeks now since I completed all my tests and they are still waiting (for some odd reason) for me to deliver files to the recruitment center. I delivered my eye exam results in person and the ECG, lung X-ray, blood, and urine tests were to be sent by the base to the recruiting center. I am also not looking forward to the 7 years of learning I will have to do to become a Pilot.
> 
> I want to serve my country as an officer, asap.
> 
> ...



Don't go MARS, you'll be a waste of a spot.
It seems to me that you just want power, or just the prestige of telling people that you're an officer in the military. Those are the wrong reasons, and they're reasons that will a) see you leaving the forces ASAP after you've joined, or b) get those under you killed. **

Go back to school for a Ph.D and go be a professor of some sorts. You've obviously proved you're just oh so great in school.

**I'm not an officer currently, but I've got enough common sense to know what the wrong reasons are or at least notice someone who needs a quick attitude adjustment. You're not entitled to a job. This applies in the civilian sector as well; if you come off with an attitude like that, then who the hell would want to hire you?


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## Scott (29 Jun 2010)

Funny that. I am doing some hiring right now in civvy world for a pretty damned good paying gig and if I were to see attitude like that you'd move right to the shredder.

Cheers


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## Pusser (29 Jun 2010)

There are no quick paths to a position of real responsibility as an officer.  AFTER you complete your basic officer course and French language training, you can expect at least a year to 18 months of MARS training.  Naval Logistics can take over two years.   Patience is a virtue and you will be tested often.  Remember also that it's not just a matter of showing up.  There are many milestones to achieve and at each one you will be judged by those that have gone before to determine whether you meet the standard to join our ranks.


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## jb_008 (30 Jun 2010)

I fail to understand why my desire to become an officer is viewed solely as a goal to achieve power. The whole reason why there exists a DEO program is for people who have demonstrated the skills and technical knowledge to be selected and trained to lead our men and women. My educational background is one that can greatly benefit the Canadian military. I qualify for the DEO program so why would I not want to pursue that option? Why would I not want to be excited and anxious to start working as part of a team? If the forces are prepared to employ me as an officer, then that is reality and a very good thing for me. I tend to be ambitious about pursuing good things. 

Judgements about my character are way off base, especially after only reading several paragraphs on a text based forum. I asked about wait times and expressed concern about waiting 7 years to learn a trade that has nothing to do with my education. I have already been waiting a year for the selection process to begin and I'll probably have to wait another. My life is not infinite, neither is my youth. Seven years is a long time to be qualified for a trade, simply too long for me. The recruitment officer failed to mention how long the wait times for Pilot were.


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## Nemecek (30 Jun 2010)

As a fellow DEO applicant who will likely wait until next fiscal year, I can understand where you're coming from.


Yes, the wait is frustrating. I applied last year, waited to this April to complete all the steps, was told I did quite well, but because my security clearance came back later than it should have (according to my MCC), I missed the cut for the NOAB and the Cbt Arms closed up. 

That having been said, that doesn't mean I'm resentful towards the system. I'm taking the time to start a Human Resources Management diploma from Dalhousie, as well as a MA. No one is jumping on you because you're wanting to be an officer, the issue is in your mindset. You have to understand that flying a CF-18 or a C-130 isn't the same as getting a driver's license when you're 16. It's not a simple job, and the sheer technique of which, simply put, takes years to safely attain. It's not that you're not educated (which you've made no reservation in telling us all), and it's not that you're a DEO hopeful, it's that you don't really have the respect and humility for the system that you ask for. 

Ambition is a great thing to have, as well as excitement towards a chosen career. But there's a tried and true adage: "Good things come to those who wait". I'm younger than you, yes, but 27? You're by no means old.   

You're very right, life is not infinite, but that having been said some people would wait 15 or 20 years for just one chance to push  millions of dollars of technology through the sky at mach 2. Just because it takes 7 years to fully trade qualify, doesn't mean you won't be flying, or contributing to society in anyway. Even while training you can contribute to your community. Go into a United Way, join Big Brothers/Big Sisters, etc. The possibilities are endless for someone who states they are as altruistic and enthusiastic as yourself.


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## jb_008 (30 Jun 2010)

Pilot obviously isn't for me. I will focus on my next choice.


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## hold_fast (30 Jun 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> I fail to understand why my desire to become an officer is viewed solely as a goal to achieve power. The whole reason why there exists a DEO program is for people who have demonstrated the skills and technical knowledge to be selected and trained to lead our men and women.


No, I don't believe so. There is no technical knowledge in a Bachelor's degree. I believe that the DEO exists for people who have demonstrated the hard work, critical thinking, patience, and attitude that got them through schooling.



> My educational background is one that can greatly benefit the Canadian military.


You originally wanted financial logistics. Your MBA may have been beneficial at that point. But pilot? MARS officer? I'm not going to debate the merits or follies of an MBA, but it's just that you KEEP bringing it up as if it makes you any better than someone else. It doesn't! I'm sorry to tell you, but studying market trends doesn't mean that you can fly a jet. Similarly, it doesn't mean that you can drive a boat either. And no, my English degree doesn't mean I can do either of those things. But at least I'm willing to fess up to that - that my 4-5 years finishing one bachelor's degree is all so that I can meet the CF's standards.



> I qualify for the DEO program so why would I not want to pursue that option? Why would I not want to be excited and anxious to start working as part of a team? If the forces are prepared to employ me as an officer, then that is reality and a very good thing for me. I tend to be ambitious about pursuing good things.


You can work as part of a team at McDonald's or, like most people who follow up their B.Comm with an MBA, in some civvy business making great money. Also, some may disagree with this quote, but I keep it dear to my heart: "*A noble man compares and estimates himself by an idea which is higher than himself; and a mean man, by one lower than himself. The one produces aspiration; the other ambition, which is the way in which a vulgar man aspires.*" - Marcus Aurelius

You seem to believe that you can walk in the door and be an officer without training. You can't. You have to recognize that you have a lot to learn before you can "lead our men and women".



> Judgements about my character are way off base, especially after only reading several paragraphs on a text based forum. I asked about wait times and expressed concern about waiting 7 years to learn a trade that has nothing to do with my education. I have already been waiting a year for the selection process to begin and I'll probably have to wait another. My life is not infinite, neither is my youth. Seven years is a long time to be qualified for a trade, simply too long for me. The recruitment officer failed to mention how long the wait times for Pilot were.



I can judge your character from only a sentence, and I guarantee you that the recruiters and interviewers can judge your character from only your posture. I may be younger than you, but I pride myself on my ability to discern one's character. I'm not saying that you're a horrible person, I'm merely saying that you're misguided, arrogant, impatient, undeserving, and that you float about with a sense of entitlement. 

If pilot is what you were passionate about, then you would wait 7 years. If you really do want MARS officer, then you would willfully wait for the application process and then have to make it through the MARS training that lasts anywhere from 12 to 18 months, generally (and without failing). You have also missed the cap off for the NOAB which is next week or so, meaning that your application would go stale again waiting for the next NOAB... sometime in the fall. To sum that up: even if you go MARS, get accepted, pass the NOAB, etc. etc. ... you're still looking at a BMOQ of January 2011 at the earliest. 

Also, don't send me personal messages. If you wish to say it, say it here. If you feel you have to whisper something in order to say it without rebuke, it is probably best to just keep your trap closed.

**Apologies to any who find that I'm being too harsh. I know that some may be sitting there wondering how some 22 year old kid who has only made it as far as the application process can preach to another applicant what qualities dictate a good officer. If you believe that I'm wrong in anything I've said, then please tell me so.


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## Steel Badger (30 Jun 2010)

MCC hat on/

What I see in the original post is an individual who has a high opinion of his own opinion. Comments to the effect of: I want it ASAP, I dont look forward to training, I have the skills to lead:

We hear that all the time, on an ongoing basis. Have the educational requirements to apply for officer? Please do, but remember that just because YOU are assured that YOU have the right stuff.....it doesn't mean that you do. 

That is OUR job, to determine if you are suitable to be an officer in the CF. In the case of the OP, I couldn't say, haven't seen his file, but if he was one of my applicant's we would definitely be talking about sense of entitlement, the requirement for patience, etc.


In the end, some folks are convinced that THEY should be SACEUR, no matter what you say.

MCC HAT off/


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## Scott (30 Jun 2010)

I stand by what I stated. And I've also had people apply for the spot over a few emails...I have also weeded people out over those few emails. It's about standing out but not in a negative way.

Guess what you're doing?


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## PMedMoe (1 Jul 2010)

jb_008 said:
			
		

> The whole reason why there exists a DEO program is for people who have demonstrated the skills and technical knowledge to be selected and trained to lead our men and women.



 :rofl:



			
				jb_008 said:
			
		

> The recruitment officer failed to mention how long the wait times for Pilot were.



Did you even ask, or did you just think you could stroll in and be selected immediately?  There's a backlog right now for several trades.  If you don't want to wait, then don't.


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## Pusser (1 Jul 2010)

As a 45 year old, 28 year veteran, I don't claim to know it all, but I do feel moderately qualified to pass some comment.  I think Hold_fast has hit the nail on the head - some very insightful comments indeed! 

Education does not equal leadership ability.  All it really means is that you managed to show up someplace most of the time absorb the required amount of knowledge and manage to spew it out at the right time and in sufficient quantities.  And I say this with two degrees under my belt.  One of the fallout effects of the Somalia Affair was the decision that all officers in the future would require a degree.  I happened to be at a function around that time and had the opportunity to challenge the CDS (Gen Baril) over a beer on the subject.  I expressed my belief that a degree does not make a better officer.  He agreed, but his counter argument was that when selecting from a pool of candidates that is far larger than the available spots, we could afford to use this as a means to cull the herd.  In other words, a degree doesn't qualify you to be an officer or any other type of leader.  All it proves is that you're capable of some form of achievement.  Whether you can achieve what's required to lead has yet to be determined.

Having said all this I can tell you of two individuals I've known over the years.  One was a very well educated marine biologist, whom a recruiter thought would make a good MARS officer.  He was complete washout - couldn't lead a two man rush to a four hole outhouse.  He was a super nice guy, but now he cleans carpets for a living.  The other guy was a classic knuckle-dragger (joined in the days before a degree was required).  He too was a MARS officer, but didn't get a baccalaureate until he was Commodore and even then, it was only because of the new requirement that all officers have degrees.  He recently retired as a Rear Admiral and I would follow him to Hell and back.

As I've said before, there are many milestones to achieve on the road to a leadership position in the CF.  It is not an easy road and many of us who are already here have a responsibility as recruiters, trainers, leaders, etc to ensure that only those who meet the standard to progress.  It's a responsibility we take very seriously.  There are no "A"s for effort.  Only results count and the number of degrees or what degrees you have are often irrelevant when the defecation hits the oscillating blades.

If  you're ready and willing to understand this, then come on down and try us out.  Be patient and always remember to keep your eyes on the prize.  If you want it, then be willing to do the work to get it.


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## George Wallace (1 Jul 2010)

It is so unfortunate that our society now places so much importance on what certificate one hangs on their wall.  Although I have one or two myself, I do not advocate them as being in any way shape or form a true indicator of one's ability to lead.  In some cases, the shear numbers of such certificates on one's wall, may more often than not indicate a total lack of decisiveness; in that the person could not, and perhaps still can't, decide what they want to be when they "grow up".  Some of this nations most brilliant and most successful men and women in the past century have had only partial Public School educations, never having reached High School.  They didn't need that piece of paper.  In a few cases, other than 'prestige' and 'snobbery' what does it really mean?


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