# Children and military training



## joaquim (4 Aug 2004)

Hello everyone, this photo posted by AP in Yahoo.news (link below) shows palestinian girls being trained with very realistic assault rifles, probably an M4. Two questions from a civilian:

1. Are there international laws protecting children from military training?
2. Could this M4 really be a "toy gun" as stated by the AP journalist?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040731/481/akcf10207311050


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## Sundborg (4 Aug 2004)

It looks like a fake rifle to me.  I am suprised that countries like this teach children how to handle weapons as they do - it is just wrong.


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## D-n-A (4 Aug 2004)

1.) yes there are laws against useing children as soldiers, but I don't know if you notiched or not, but the bad guys don't always play by the rules

2.)Its not a M4

Looks like a toy M16A2 rifle. Looks like it has a M16A1 style rear sight, parts of the rifle look very blocky, also the bolt carrier looks red(look through the open ejection port cover).


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## LanceaLot (4 Aug 2004)

I wonder what country that picture was taken.

On a similar note, I was hiking through the Dominican Republic last year. I came across two boys who looked to be about 14 and 16 year old carrying some kind of machine guns. They seemed friendly and I smiled and gave them both chocolate bars and moved on....i was quite nervous about it too!  Man those countries are a whole different world as soon as you step off the tourist beaches and hotels.

If there are laws to protect youth, they are not being enforced in that country.


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## D-n-A (4 Aug 2004)

LanceaLot said:
			
		

> I wonder what country that picture was taken.



"..Palestinian girls from Islamic Jihad carry toy guns as they take part in a demonstration against the ongoing Israeli army operation in the northern Gaza Strip (news - web sites), at the Palestinian Legislative Council in Gaza City..."


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## Jarnhamar (4 Aug 2004)

Looks like someone needs to pay attention to detail more


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## Fusaki (4 Aug 2004)

I heard somewhere that the only two countries that didn't sign the international law banning child soldiers was the U.S. and Somalia. The U.S.? Apparently in the States you can not only join the Army at 17, but unlike in Canada you can be sent on tour at 17 as well. Alot of people wouldn't have too much difficulty sending a 17 year old overseas, but - technically - he would still be a child soldier.

Maybe someone can confirm this. I heard this bit of info a LONG time ago and I can't remember where the source was.


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## Scott (4 Aug 2004)

The age of emancipation is 16 in most provinces/states.


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## LanceaLot (5 Aug 2004)

> Looks like someone needs to pay attention to detail more


Meh! I had a case of the lazies and had my personal secretary give me the run down of the story...guess I will have to fire her now.


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## Infanteer (5 Aug 2004)

Look at that picture, that girl is well trained.   She is showing good trigger discipline, keeping her finger off the trigger until she is ready to fire....


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## joaquim (5 Aug 2004)

D-n-A said:
			
		

> Looks like a toy M16A2 rifle. Looks like it has a M16A1 style rear sight, parts of the rifle look very blocky, also the bolt carrier looks red(look through the open ejection port cover).



Thanks for all the very useful answers, especially D-N-A. 

A connected question: the scope has the purplish hue of coated lenses. If it is truly a toy, how much would it cost (scope included)? You may have noticed that there are at least eight girls on the picture, each with a similar rifle. Nice toy budget, huh?

A concerned civilian.

PS: here are more pictures of palestinians children receiving military training with very realistic weapons, all called "toy guns" by the journalists. Pictures were taken from http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/?PHPSESSID=b12b03bf628531ca61822bb51069d5d1


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## joaquim (5 Aug 2004)

One other point:

You are in an urban warfare situation, taking fire from multiple sites simultaneously for several hours. You break open a house door and storm in. Your eye catches a figure in a dark corner, in camouflage cloth, pointing this M16 at you. Do you notice the red bolt carrier?

Journalists regularly report children being shot by professional, well trained soldiers during urban warfare operations.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Aug 2004)

During WW2, wasn't the Hitler Youth's performance pretty shitty?


Child Soldiers are nothing new guys. Do some reading about africa. Theres thousands and thousands of them. 10 year olds running around with assault rifles. It happens everywhere.

Who was it who said something like the difference between a good cop and a dead cop is the ability to shoot a kid with a gun?


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## R031button (5 Aug 2004)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> During WW2, wasn't the Hitler Youth's performance pretty shitty?
> 
> 
> Child Soldiers are nothing new guys. Do some reading about africa. Theres thousands and thousands of them. 10 year olds running around with assault rifles. It happens everywhere.
> ...



Actually the Hilter Youth was extremely vicious and tough. They stoped our boys in their tracks after D-Day. The thing about kids is that they can easily become fanatics, and fanatics don't give up easy.


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## 1feral1 (5 Aug 2004)

Its times like this we dont realise how lucky we really are in our neck of the woods. I have seen toddlers from Palestine dressed up in toy bomb vests with toy AKs with their mothers as proud as can be, and many who are happy to have their kids grow up to be real suicide bombers with real AKs. 

In the same parade blood from young kids in some bizarre ceremony has been smeared on the parents and the croud just goes insane in some type of a bent and twisted frenzy, which would send any westerner running for the hills!.

Its the insanity of the extremism which has me worried (or should I say frightened), and knowing that its being passed on the the younger generations right this very moment.

Personally, I'll settle for a rowdy group of Sask Roughrider's fans anytime.

As for the pic of the kid with the M16 style of rifle, take a close look at the lower reciever. Its a fake rifle of some kind, and then there is another pic of yet a younger kid with an Hungarian AMD-65 (their version of a modified AK) cradled in her arms. Sshyte! She's the one who should be in the cradle.

Regards,

Wes


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## Armymedic (5 Aug 2004)

Those rifles look way to real to me and I am not looking at them thru the sight of my rifle or pistol.

Good points above about attitudes and children using the weapons. I learned to shoot gophers with a .22 single bolt action at 8 yrs old. I am sure 100 yrs ago, it was totally normal for 10 yrs olds to learn to use larger rifles and shotguns....


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## Gunnerlove (6 Aug 2004)

I started plinking gophers with a .22 at about eight and started target shooting at about ten. 
By twelve I loved the AR-15 as a child can handle the recoil, unlike the M-14 and L1A1 which kick like mules.

So my question would be, if a picture of a twelve year old Canadian with an AR-15 appeared in your local paper would you get all crazy about it?

If so we should keep cameras away from our recruiting setups.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Aug 2004)

> Actually the Hilter Youth was extremely vicious and tough. They stoped our boys in their tracks after D-Day. The thing about kids is that they can easily become fanatics, and fanatics don't give up easy.



Thats odd, I heard the exact oppisite. They stopped us in our tracks??  I've heard they just didn't have the dicipline or maturity to be effective once the shit hit the fan.  Michael perhaps you have an opinion about it?


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## D-n-A (6 Aug 2004)

R031button said:
			
		

> Ghost778 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That wasn't the Hitler Youth, well not exactly.

The Hitler Youth that the Canadians fought in Normandy, were the 12th SS HitlerJugend Division, a lot of the young soldiers in this unit came from the hitler youth, an were age around 17+, while there NCOs were veterens on the Eastern Front and other areas, an came from other SS Divisons like the 1st, aswell as the Heer(army).

The actual Hitler Youth, as more of a para-military an politcal boy scout group, with kids and some teens, but when they turned 17 or 18 they usually joined the Wehrmact or SS or were forced into joining the SS.   Late in the War, when the fighting was in Germany, the Hitleryouth, aswell as the Volksturm(mainly made up of those who coulden't join the Military, either due to health or age)   were put on the front lines in different areas (mainly in an around cities, especially Berlin), an they did fight, for the most part, they weren't very effective, an in some occasions deserted leaving large gaps in the German defence.   I know during the street fighting in Berlin, they were quite effective with the panzerfaust an destroyed a lot of russian tanks, an some earned the Iron Cross(givin out for more of a moral thing, rather than bravery in combat) for destroying   tanks, aswell as the tank killer(?) badges.


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Aug 2004)

Two different "Hitler Youth" groups are being discussed here.

a)   With regards to the Hitler Youth Division, they weren't smart soldiers.  They fought like tigers, and were well indoctrinated, but they didn't have the sense to withdraw and save themselves when cornered.  The classic and most well chronicled example is Buron (see "Bloody Buron", an excellent book by the HLI Association) where elements of SS Panzergrenadierregiment 25 made a stand against the HLI of Canada.  While two or three companies of SS were killed or captured almost to a man, while inflicting 262 casualties on the HLI, the tactics of the SS boys left much to be desired.  Many would stay in holes and have to be eliminated by point blank 75mm gunfire from the supporting tanks of the Sherbrooke Fusiliers.  Casualties for the HLI were high, but it was also their first real battle in Normandy and certainly their first battalion size attack.  This was the second week of July.

b)  I don't know how the Hitler Youth as a whole fought - referring to the youth movement in Germany - but I suspect they were never formed into their own units.  Some HJ boys acted as augmentees, notably in the Berlin fighting, and may have been integrated into local Volkssturm (Militia) units (called the Landsturm in Prussia, incidentally).  

The HJ was a paramilitary organization - sometimes better described as "pre-military", and while indoctrination into firearms formed part of their syllabus, I think the HJ dagger was their primary "weapon", and at that not a weapon at all but merely worn for show (possibly also used as a tool on campouts).  The HJ concentrated (and there were different branches I believe - Marine HJ, for example, and an air service I think sort of like our Air Cadets) on physical fitness, camping, citizenship....they may have received less militaristic training than our own Army Cadets.  I'd have to look at my references to be sure, though.

I don't recall them being renowned for fighting, as Ghost says.  German propaganda may have played up their role in the fighting - and they may have been numerically significant in Berlin in 1945; one of Hitler's last public appearances was to decorate an HJ boy with the Iron Cross Second Class for knocking out a Russian tank IIRC.

EDIT - one point to D-n-A (who is right on with his other comments) - the HJ was never mandatory but most youth did serve - you miss the one step before joining the Army, however, and that was that all males were required to serve in the RAD (Reich Labour Service) before the Army.  This may have been waived during the war, I'm honestly not sure now.  But certainly pre-war and in the early war years it was a requirement.

It was pre-military training as well. While they did manual labour for the state, they also had uniforms, and did drill.  See my page at http://www.deutschesoldaten.com/customs/rad.htm for some pictures of what I mean.


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## big_castor (6 Aug 2004)

There's a really good book about the Hitler Youth by H.W. Koch that I read a few years ago.   If my memory is correct, membership in the HJ became compulsory in 1936 but enforcement of that rule became more and more difficult as the war advanced.   Attendance varied a lot because many youth found the regular HJ Meetings "boring"

Before the war and during the early years, the training was somewhat similar to that of our own Air, Army and Sea cadets although it seem that a lot more initiative was left to the local units.   According to Koch, the training became more and more military as the war advanced.   HJ notably served with the air defence units, manning guns or searchlight and acting as "runners" between batteries.


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Aug 2004)

Good points, Sqn CO.   I think another "real world" tasking that HJ may have found themselves faced with was rubble clearance in bombed cities.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Aug 2004)

Going a little off topic, the ancient Spartans had an interesting system. For those of you unaware children at the age of 6 would begin training for military service. From age 5 or 6 until 20 they would train and drill. They would serve in the military from 20 until 60. All spartan males were soldiers.  Their training was very physically brutal but the end result was pretty amazing in my opinion. A pretty good read is the book Gates of fire by Steven Pressfield. It covers children growing up as spartans as well as their helot slaves. It has a lot about warriors, the mentality behind soldiers, training, sacrifice and duty. Probably one of the best books i've read. A lot of the lessons in the book could apply to todays military as well. It finishes with 300 spartans and their helot slaves holding off the 2 million man army of the persians for 7 days. 

Uh, back on topic now


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## Infanteer (7 Aug 2004)

Ah, the Spartans.

Much of what we know about Sparta is second hand hearsay.  Much like the "German Myth" of WWII, history has been plagued by the "Spartan Myth" that seems to show Sparta as the ultimate Warrior State.  In reality, the story of Sparta is much more complex.  This "Spartan Myth" was largely the result of Greek writers of Contempory Greek city stats that were critics of Athenian Democracy; they saw Sparta as the alternative.  (Can you tell Classical Studies was my minor?)


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## Spr.Earl (7 Aug 2004)

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> The age of emancipation is 16 in most provinces/states.


With Perent's consent,but once you are 17 it's your call.


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## shaboing (10 Aug 2004)

D-n-A said:
			
		

> 1.) yes there are laws against useing children as soldiers, but I don't know if you notiched or not, but the bad guys don't always play by the rules
> 
> 2.)Its not a M4
> 
> Looks like a toy M16A2 rifle. Looks like it has a M16A1 style rear sight, parts of the rifle look very blocky, also the bolt carrier looks red(look through the open ejection port cover).


my thoughts exactly, the thing that i noticed first was the red, that to me means its a toy gun, i'm no expert on the subject yet though


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