# ARE SWORDS ALLOWED FOR CEREMONIAL USE BY CADETS??????



## THEARMYGUY (17 Aug 2004)

Just wondering what you all think, or know about this subject.  When I was a cadet in the 80's/90's we had swords.  However we also had cadet officer ranks.  Any info about this would be most welcome.

Thanks to all.

CHEERS 

THE ARMY GUY


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Aug 2004)

In the 80s, our corps also used swords (claymores, as it was a Highland unit), but I think you were right that only the "officers" carried them.


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## Slim (17 Aug 2004)

I was in Sea Cadets from '82 to 85 and we used to have a cutlass drill team using real WW1 Dutch cutlasses.


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## Sgt_McWatt (17 Aug 2004)

In my corp we use them for annual inspection. Plt WO's, Flag Party commander, CSM, RSM. However I believe that is to much. It should be flag party commander and RSM and CO. MAX definitely not all positions.Just my 2 cents.


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## Ranger (17 Aug 2004)

Well we use swords at Annual inspection as well...but only our RSM carries one, and it's good that way. Our Officers only carry them when we're doing special events. ie: RSM stand down parade at Fort York, Regimental Dinner at Fort York. 

(HAve fun, try and critisize )


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## GGHG_Cadet (17 Aug 2004)

Our RSM gets one instead of a pace stick. Also at camp the CSM and WOs of A Coy (Drill and ceremonial) get swords. My RSM gets one because our old CO is crazy about them coincidently he is also the OC A coy.


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## Excolis (17 Aug 2004)

yes they are army guy...


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## solid1191 (17 Aug 2004)

at my schools ( military school) we still have officer ranks at our corp. Therefore we issue a sword to every cadet officer we got. I think some other corps still do this others just give their rsms swords


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## Art Johnson (17 Aug 2004)

Claymores? I can see it now, "DRAW CLAWMORES" The officers promptly put both hands over their shoulders grasp the hilt of the Claymore and begin withdrawing the weapon all the time trying to remember which shoulder the RSM said it comes out over. I believe the weapon in question is an "Infantry Officers Basket Hilted Sword".


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## Sgt_McWatt (17 Aug 2004)

2 things. 
1) Alpha didn't use any of that for grad parade this year no rifles no swords,,,, nothing.
2) Doesn't any one else's flag party commander carry a sword?


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## Ranger (18 Aug 2004)

2 things;
1) That's because Alpha sucks  lol nah...it was weird becuz they were practising with them...
2) No...your Flag Party is just weird 

Yay I critisized one


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Aug 2004)

Art Johnson said:
			
		

> Claymores? I can see it now, "DRAW CLAWMORES" The officers promptly put both hands over their shoulders grasp the hilt of the Claymore and begin withdrawing the weapon all the time trying to remember which shoulder the RSM said it comes out over. I believe the weapon in question is an "Infantry Officers Basket Hilted Sword".



Nope, the order on parade (still is in the Regiment, too) was "Officers - draw Claymores!"

The proper term for the weapon is, I believe, "Clay Beag" in Gaelic.  You are probably right about the official nomenclature, but you will never hear the CO on parade say "Officers - draw Basket Hilted Swords!"  They are called Claymores by popular convention, at least in Calgary.  And everyone knows a Claymore is either an anti-personnel mine or a large two handed sword, but that doesn't seem to deter anyone.


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## Sgt_McWatt (18 Aug 2004)

Q.Y. RANG said:
			
		

> 2 things;
> 1) That's because Alpha sucks  lol nah...it was weird becuz they were practising with them...
> 2) No...your Flag Party is just weird
> 
> Yay I critisized one


OH NO! Its on now 

and by The way I believe you criticised one not critisized one.
I WIN!
Regards


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## Ranger (18 Aug 2004)

guess what, no one's perfect, so what if I slipped up once with my spelling. 
I still criticised you, and I never lose .
Peace,


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## Franko (18 Aug 2004)

For Armoured cadet corps.....

The only pers allowed to use them is the flag party guard.

Regards


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## THEARMYGUY (18 Aug 2004)

Thanks Franko.  This was the type of reply I was looking for.  Do you know if the swords are covered in the CF manual of Drill and Ceremonial??  Please let me know if anyone has any info on this.

Cheers!!! 

The Army Guy


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## big_castor (18 Aug 2004)

THE ARMY GUY said:
			
		

> Thanks Franko.   This was the type of reply I was looking for.   Do you know if the swords are covered in the CF manual of Drill and Ceremonial??   Please let me know if anyone has any info on this.
> 
> Cheers!!!
> 
> The Army Guy



You can find sword drill in the APD 201.   Who is allowed to carry one is coverd in the dress CATO's of Army, Sea and Air Cadets (it's easy for Air Cadets : no one !)


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## Inch (19 Aug 2004)

Squadron CO said:
			
		

> You can find sword drill in the APD 201.   Who is allowed to carry one is coverd in the dress CATO's of Army, Sea and Air Cadets (it's easy for Air Cadets : no one !)



For reg force Sqns, the 2 escorts (usually Sgts) carry C7s with fixed bayonets and the Colour Party Comd (Capt) carries the Sqn Colours and a sheathed sword.

*edit* That's Air Force Sqns, everyone knows Armoured regiments have Guidons


On the cadet note, when I was in Army Cadets, the colour party comd carried a sword, Cdn flag on the marching right and Corps flag on the left, 2 escorts with FNs behind the flags. Troop I/Cs and the SSM had drill canes and the RSM had a pace stick. When officer's were on parade, they all carried swords.


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## THEARMYGUY (19 Aug 2004)

Looks like you and I were cadets around the same time Inch.  Same for me when I was in.  What is ADP 201??  Thanks for all the info from everyone.  Getting what I was looking for here.

Cheers!! 

The Army Guy


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## Bergeron 971 (31 Aug 2006)

I read the CATOs very often. Can someone find me the link to prove the autherization of use of sabers and swords for cadets for cerimonial use?
I am responcable for teh flag party, and the drill platoon, and would love to instruct seniors in the CC how to use them on parade.
Would be nice for final review.

Thanks in advance everyone.
Cheers.

PS. forgot to mention, Army cadets. thanks


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## Franko (31 Aug 2006)

Look in the Drill and Ceremonial Manual, all of the drill is in there.

Every cadet corps should have one. It has every drill movement at the halt and marching (with or without arms)

As for looking for the proper CATO, I don't know exactly where it is but I can vouche for you being allowed to use them for parade purposes.

Regards


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## ryanmann356 (31 Aug 2006)

yes they are allowed, my corps RSM uses a sword for our ACR, and i believe they teach sword drill in D&C but i may be wrong on that, it may have changed.


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## Bergeron 971 (31 Aug 2006)

No worries on the drill it self, I know it all, and own a bible. 
However I may need documentation just in case I am challenged in regards to drill with weapons.


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## Burrows (31 Aug 2006)

Have you considered the cost involved?  Swords and such are to be purchased at no expense to the public and while you may find a cheap sword, sword belts are harder.


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## Bergeron 971 (31 Aug 2006)

I also have all connections for what I need, at my expense. lol. better then beer and other worthless junk.


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## Gunner_Askett (1 Sep 2006)

At the ceremony of the flags  at HMCS Ontario. The field guns had a Po1 with a cutlass and an officer with a sword.


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## Bergeron 971 (2 Sep 2006)

sea cadets and CIC are a completly diffrent catagory from army cadets.
CICs with parade posts can wear sabers.
however, the new cdt standards senior army cdts take the posts of officers. which is why we're looking into swords.
RSM, CSM, Flag part cmdr, flag barers, and plt cmdrs.


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## D. Nicholson (2 Sep 2006)

Cadets can't carry swords.

Why?

Because there isn't a CATO authorizing their use. 

In fact, there are often letters sent out around ACR time reminding unit's swords are not to be used. Moreover Cadets generally will not fill a position that allows a sword to be carried.


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## Franko (2 Sep 2006)

D. Nicholson said:
			
		

> Cadets can't carry swords.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



Hmmm...seeing as I've been constantly working with the cadet movement since 88 and I've seen parades where they were being used....you're wrong.

Along with the ACR memos...I've seen them all pass by me, never a mention of swords no being allowed.

This was not only at the summer concentrations (camp) but also at different cadet corps around Eastern Canada.

Now at these parades there were certain dignitaries there. Normally the ACO and higher. The last parade we conducted the ACO gave the thumbs up at that.

If you are thinkin that some of these dignitaries are somewhat trivial and obviously don't know the rules involved with cadet, wrong again.

There is one such dignitary who took a keen interest in to how the current cadet corps I work with. He is normally there and pops in from time to time, as his son used to be with us until he aged out. This certain someone took it upon himself to get familiar with the CATOs.....intimatly familiar. His comments on the usage of C7 rifles for famil shoots made that very evident.

His last time being the reviewing officer he had commented that the flag party looked extreemly sharp with the sword drill, and he seemed genuinly impressed.

Give up yet?

It was the CDS.

Wanna call him wrong?      

Regards


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## rwgill (2 Sep 2006)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Hmmm...seeing as I've been constantly working with the cadet movement since 88 and I've seen parades where they were being used....you're wrong.


Not quite.  Generally speaking, just because it has been done for years, does not make things right.



> Along with the ACR memos...I've seen them all pass by me, never a mention of swords no being allowed.


May be true........in your case.



> This was not only at the summer concentrations (camp) but also at different cadet corps around Eastern Canada.


I assume you mean Atlantic Region in this case.  Eastern Region (Quebec) has issued regional orders forbidding the use of swords, rifles and bayonets in public.........including the ACR.  This adds much confusion in our world.



> Now at these parades there were certain dignitaries there. Normally the ACO and higher. The last parade we conducted the ACO gave the thumbs up at that.


Quite possible.  My cadet corps had one sword carried as well, though not drawn IAW the AU's customs and traditions (Medical).  We got a thumbs up from the Det as well as the AU for that, with the added touch of the MC explaining why things are how they are.

If you are thinkin that some of these dignitaries are somewhat trivial and obviously don't know the rules involved with cadet, wrong again.



> There is one such dignitary who took a keen interest in to how the current cadet corps I work with. He is normally there and pops in from time to time, as his son used to be with us until he aged out. This certain someone took it upon himself to get familiar with the CATOs.....intimatly familiar. His comments on the usage of C7 rifles for famil shoots made that very evident.
> 
> His last time being the reviewing officer he had commented that the flag party looked extremely sharp with the sword drill, and he seemed genuinely impressed.
> 
> ...


This is a touchy subject, but I can tell you that what happens and what should happen are two, completely different events.

A (or possibly "the") Winnipeg Grenadiers Cadet Corps participated in a Memorial Trip (Exchange) to Hong Kong in the 90's.  There was no question at the time that the C7 was forbidden for use by cadets.  The C7, with scope, was beyond forbidden.  However, while on the trip, army cadets performed the vigil at a cenotaph, in front of the public and media, using C7s with scope..............in a foreign country.  Who was in attendance?  The PM, the MND and the CDS.  Is what happened now permitted, due to precedence?  Is it now permitted due to who was in attendance?  The answer is no.  

The CATOs are exclusive.  If it is not covered, it is not permitted, which makes Mr. Nicholson correct.  However, when it pertains to customs and traditions, most are not covered by the CATOs, thus leaving Cadet Unit COs in a position to interpret the "spirit" of the CATOs and the "letter" of the CATOs.  This is when a CO would consult with the Det, who would inturn consult with the RCSU (RCO).

In your specific case, your cadets were permitted to carry swords due to the support of the Det, RCO and the AU.  My cadet unit (Central Region)can also carry swords, with full support of the Det, RCO and IAW the customs of the AU.  This makes you correct.

Eastern Region(Quebec), regardless of customs or traditions are not permitted.


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## Burrows (3 Sep 2006)

Thanks for the clarification rwgill.

My unit has also used a sword for their ACR and I've found it looks much sharper than the old beaten up pace stick.


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## rwgill (3 Sep 2006)

No problem.

What many should do if you are not sure of something is:

1.  Check your resources (CATOs, Regional Orders, Standing Orders, Routine Orders, 201 etc)

2.  Ask your CO

3.  In the case of Army Cadets, check with the Affiliated Unit

4.  Check with Det

5.  Get a reply....................in writing (see 6).

6.  CYA(the most important of all  ;D)


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## Bergeron 971 (8 Sep 2006)

rwgill, I don't know if you see it this way, but from what you say in eastern region, you said both, "Not peremitted" and "Not permitted in public"
can you clearify?
That is two completly diffrent things,
As our armouries is private property. From our previous convo, I figgured, during public events, "Parades, rememberance, off regimental property" it was not permitted.
however, as I said, the regimental land and its armouries is private property, which would permit the use of sabers and swords for parades.
As for our affiliated unit, I am sure they would be happy to see the senior posts on parade with sabers etc. looking sharp. And the CC Cmdr, might as well like the idea.
At the moment. I have begun a drill plt. spliting them into juniors and seniors. Seniors learning how to perfectionise their leadership and drill class's. while learning advanced drill not covered in the cdt program.

As for on parade, It would be a 2 or so year project to obtain the kit, Sabers, belts etc. of course from none public funds "MY POCKET" haha. or a sponcer interested in the drill tradition of cadets and the CF.

anyway, any comments thoughts?
thanks.


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## rwgill (9 Sep 2006)

Confused?  I know I am.

Air Cadets are forbidden from using swords across the country.  CATO 55-04.  The only time an Air Cadet *MAY* use a sword is while at a Sea or Army CSTC.

Here is all that I can find at the moment, though there is no link, just an email from a friend.



> With year-end reviews fast approaching, I wish to reiterate the Eastern Region's position regarding the bearing of weapons, bayonets and cutlasses by cadets on parade:
> 
> On annual inspections, weapons are authorized on parade for sea and army cadets only. Bayonets are forbidden on the said inspections. Furthermore, cadets, regardless of their element, will not carry bayonets or weapons outside authorized sites or training spaces. Carrying the cutlass is only authorized in the Sea Cadet program and only for the Guard Petty Officer and the Coxwain.
> 
> ...



Please note that the _Manual of Drill_ spoken about is not the 201.  Eastern has its own, set drill manual which allows for local variations.

As you can see, a cutlass (read sword) is only permitted by the Sea Cadets and only for two appointments and not in public.

Basically, as I understand it:

Sea Cadets are permitted Swords AND Rifle drill at LHQ

Army Cadets are permitted Rifle Drill ONLY at LHQ

Air Cadets get nothing.


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## D. Nicholson (12 Sep 2006)

... with the ability for exceptions to be granted (I would think Freedom of the Citymay fall into this catagory)

I do think it's disheartening that Cenotaph Guards are not armed, however to each Region their own.


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## ryanmann356 (12 Sep 2006)

rwgill said:
			
		

> Sea Cadets are permitted Swords AND Rifle drill at LHQ



I read a sea cadet drill manual and they also have movements for use of bayonets to put on their .22s, but I have never actually heard of or seen this.  It seemed kind of cool


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Sep 2006)

Enough speculating. Someone go up the CoC and get a published, definitive, official answer. When you do, contact a Mod to unlock this, and post it.


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