# Navy may ban beards on submariners



## old medic (27 Apr 2005)

Navy may ban beards on submariners

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/27/navy-beards-050427.html

OTTAWA - Canada's Navy is considering prohibiting submariners from wearing beards, CBC News has learned.

They're currently allowed under military regulations.

However, documents obtained by the CBC show the Canadian Forces Fire Marshall warned two years ago that beards could interfere with breathing equipment.

He also said the quality of the breathing equipment and firefighting suits was unacceptable.

The Navy didn't change its policy then, but the issue has been resurrected after the deadly fire on the HMCS Chicoutimi in the fall of 2004.

Chicoutimi's maiden voyage as a Canadian vessel ended Oct. 5 when an electrical fire broke out, disabling the sub while it was on the surface about 230 kilometres off Ireland.

Several submariners were injured in the fire. One crewmember, Lieut. Chris Saunders of Halifax, later died of smoke inhalation.

The Navy says it now plans to move forward on the Fire Marshall's recommendations.


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## AZA-02 (27 Apr 2005)

I think we should prohibit anyone to wear a beard. (well in the army, anyway)


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Apr 2005)

AZA-02 said:
			
		

> I think we should prohibit anyone to wear a beard. (well in the army, anyway)



And you have a reason?   :
Edit: Gender:  Male 
Age: 18 
Oh never mind you are not even old enough to have one....

The key is not banning beards the key is to keep them close and clean. None of the scraggly bushes you see half the old timers wear, not only does it look awful you definitely cannot get a proper seal on your C4 mask or your chemox.


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## AZA-02 (27 Apr 2005)

DiD you have to hurt my feelings. :crybaby:
By the way some people grow beards at the age of 13 

P.S i dont have one

P.P.S i think they look silly, but thats just me eh  im just a 18 year old male.


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## Ex-Dragoon (27 Apr 2005)

Try and stick to what you know...


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## Neill McKay (28 Apr 2005)

I found it odd that they would talk about getting rid of beards in submarines, but not other ships.  I could see a "no beards at sea" policy being implemented, but I'd really hate to lose them altogether.

As you say, if a beard can be worn without compromising the Chemox seal that should suffice.


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## Sub_Guy (28 Apr 2005)

Beards are not a problem in getting air, as our EBS masks now just basically fit into your mouth Scuba style.   As for the FF kit, beards don't affect the seal, but hey I don't have a beard......If they get rid of them, I think it is just something to give Civies that warm fuzzie feeling.... 

Just get to that ebs mask and don't breathe on your way there.....


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## Sundborg (1 May 2005)

I just had a beard that I got rid of yesterday for personal reasons.  I see no reason to ban beards from navy personel due to one fire incident.  It's a naval tradition and it should be honoured.  As long as they are kept trimmed and neat, there should be no reason to ban them from submariners.


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## Heatwave (17 May 2005)

Gentlemen (assuming that there are no ladies here commenting on beards),

Please bear with me as I choose not to comment on whether or not the Navy should wear beards, as I have a biased opinion.  I do, however, wish to provide some quick facts.  Well kempt, or fuzzy beards, do not make a difference when performing a proper fit test (I'm refering to the Porta-count test, and not the outdated banana oil test).  Tests were performed on the West Coast and 100% of personnel tested, of which had a variety of 24hrs growth and more, failed.  

This fact is driven home by the law forbidding Fire Fighters from having a beard.

Once again, I don't want to dispute tradition and safety, I just found it obvious from some of the comments under this post that many are unaware of the fit testing standards IAW the Respiratory Protection Program.  Hope this will open some eyes.

Chimo!


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 May 2005)

Apparently some ships have banned beards altogether anyways. Its interesting they keep some of the least popular traditions and get rid of the ones that help with morale. Go figure.


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## jmackenzie_15 (17 May 2005)

I cant comment really on beards in the navy, as Ive never been in the navy or know anyone who is.
However, as an infantry soldier, I dont mind shaving , but shaving in the field is just, well I hate it and so does everyone else.For the most part.

Shaving your face when youve been in the field for days/weeks, opens up your pores and exposes you to germs and infections.Its not sanitary. Especially in the winter time, on field exs when its -35, the last thing you need is to open up all your pores and get frostbite.

The only thing I can think of besides "it doesnt look proper" for a reason why we are supposed to shave is because it could interfere with the gas mask or something to that effect? I dunno.
Anyone care to enlighten me or comment?


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## navymich (17 May 2005)

Here is a lady (that word used loosely) commenting not for myself, but for my bearded husband as well as many that I work with.

What I find interesting is that you must be clean shaven to participate in refresher training for NBCD and fire fighting.  Yet you are allowed to have one onboard prior to the trg, as well as grow it back immediately following the trg. So you must not have a beard to "refresh" on the trg, but you can have one onboard where you are most likely to be involved in the real thing.

Also, I know of some pers who have passed their portacount fit test with a tidy beard, but last time we sent people from the ship, they wouldn't test unless you were clean shaven.

I know the whole thing about tradition, and the fact that shaving is sometimes an irritant etc.  But for the actual rules, they really need to set it down one way or another, and completely across the board: land, sea, on the water, below the water....

On a good note though, we raise quite a bit of $$$ for charity when we have a beard growing contest at sea now with so many bare faces!


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## Neill McKay (17 May 2005)

navymich said:
			
		

> I know the whole thing about tradition, and the fact that shaving is sometimes an irritant etc.   But for the actual rules, they really need to set it down one way or another, and completely across the board: land, sea, on the water, below the water....



Why?  Different elements have different needs.  So do different working environments within the same element, for that matter.  While we might want to make sure that the crew of a ship in the Persian Gulf is clean-shaven for the duration of their deployment, the need isn't really there for people teaching in the fleet schools (e.g.).  Ditto for an infantry soldier in Afghanistan and another in Gagetown.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (17 May 2005)

IMHO any service member should be allowed to grow a beard (provided they can grow a proper one) while they are not in an operational area.For example if they are in an area where chemical weapons/breathing apparatus may be required, everyone should be shaven but if an air force cpl in a warehouse in borden wants a fuzz face, then have at er.There was a time when pioneers and navy were the only ones allowed to have beards but these days you can only assume that people with a beard have the magic chit.


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## Heatwave (18 May 2005)

navymich said:
			
		

> What I find interesting is that you must be clean shaven to participate in refresher training for NBCD and fire fighting.   Yet you are allowed to have one onboard prior to the trg, as well as grow it back immediately following the trg. So you must not have a beard to "refresh" on the trg, but you can have one onboard where you are most likely to be involved in the real thing.



Well, thanks for bringing this up.   As I said, I am biased in this case, so I didn't want to state this point.   But now that the door is opened, I have to ask.....How is it a fire onboard (alongside or at sea) is any different from a fire overseas?   I know that the shaving concept seems to now be based upon the NBCD threat, which is not a constant.   But what about the fire threat, which is always a possibility, regardless of location?

As for the comment by Sub-Guy about holding your breath to get to the EBS, we have to be careful here.   I realize that one would think common sense seems to apply here, but this isn't always the case.   I've been involved in exercises in which people were in a small room they've been in dozens of times previous.   Once that room was filled with smoke, they became disoriented within seconds.   Granted, this was during a training exercise, in which adrenaline is not as high.   I'm sure the cases of this would be even more rampant during actual situations, in which panic is also introduced.     JMHO.

Chimo!


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## Heatwave (18 May 2005)

navymich said:
			
		

> Also, I know of some pers who have passed their portacount fit test with a tidy beard, but last time we sent people from the ship, they wouldn't test unless you were clean shaven.



Oops, almost forgot a point.  The above quote I find interesting.  In order to administer the portacount fit test, one is "supposed" to be RPP qualified.  Once qualified, apart from the original group study that had 100% failure, one is not allowed to administer the test unless the individual is clean shaven.  This test is also usually administered by Fire Fighters or PreMed Techs.  This being said, how is someone passing a portacount fit test with a "tidy" beard, when they aren't even allowed to be tested unless they are clean shaven?  I'm glad you mentioned this, as it appears I have some research to do.  Either someone gave you false information, or someone is not doing their job correctly.

I'll have to go deeper into this one on both coasts! :threat:  Thanks for the info.

Chimo!


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## 1feral1 (14 Jun 2005)

AZA-02 said:
			
		

> I think we should prohibit anyone to wear a beard. (well in the army, anyway)



Before you spout off any more crap, and being a cadet with 3 yrs of service you should then know there is certain customs and traditions of the CF, beards do have their place in the Army.

Go tell your opinion to some pioneers and just see how far you get.


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## coors (26 Jun 2005)

Does anyone remember the ZZ Top look alike on roto in Bosnia? I think he was an RCR, I thought it was hilarious ;D I think Macleans carried a story about it.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2005)

coors said:
			
		

> Does anyone remember the ZZ Top look alike on roto in Bosnia? I think he was an RCR,



It was indeed RCR (pnr pl ) but it was Kosovo, OP KINETIC  ROTO 1


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## Slim (26 Jun 2005)

I guess at this point we're probably lucky that the F*****G Liberals don't ban the subs themselves.

As for the beards I am all for them where tradition dictates they're proper. I believe that means the navy.

By the way, the dept responsible for trying to take all the traditions away from the CF is DHist...I once had an arguement with a sgt there (no names) who insisted that Pioneers don't have any right or tradition of beard wearing. I have to admit (having been an assault troper with PPCLI instructors) that I was fairly aggressive with this individual in telling him what I thought of that!

Cheers

Slim


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