# UK Racist?



## MAJOR_Baker (12 Apr 2004)

I was wondering, since when does a country not have a right to control immigration (excluding 1st nations of course  :blotto:  )



> The head of Britain‘s race-relations commission has been branded a racist right-winger for suggesting that multiculturalism is failing and the country should strive toward more common values, reports the Observer.
> 
> Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, said in a newspaper interview that "multiculturalism suggests separateness" and that the U.K. should strive towards a more homogeneous culture with "common values ... the common currency of the English language, honoring the culture of these islands, like Shakespeare and ****ens."
> 
> ...


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## Slim (12 Apr 2004)

The man actually had the balls to suggest the truth! Too bad his own government won‘t back him.


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## spacelord (12 Apr 2004)

It‘s funny because the name D1ckens is edited


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## K. Ash (13 Apr 2004)

Slim, do you think Canada should thrive towards a more homogeneous society?


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## Tyler (13 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by absent_element:
> [qb] Slim, do you think Canada should thrive towards a more homogeneous society? [/qb]


I think we should.

I favour the ‘melting-pot‘ over the ‘salad bowl‘ ideology when it comes to new arrivals. Let‘s stop calling people by hyphenated nationalities for starters. There should be no ‘Russian-Canadians‘ or ‘Somali-Canadians‘ or ‘Chinese-Canadians‘, just ‘Canadians‘, plain and simple. For example; If you want call yourself a Spanish person and speak Spanish, move to Spain.

Multi-culturalism is a myth that has been forced down our throats for 30 odd years in Canada starting with the trudeau liberals. Different groups of people with different beliefs rarely get along, just look at history. H*ll, alot of the new arrivals don‘t share the white liberal views of ‘multi-culturalism‘ that some people think they do. They just wind up brigning old world tensions over here. Just look at some of the racially motivated gang wars going on in T.O. and Vancouver.

Suggesting that multi-culturalism doesn‘t work isn‘t being racist at all, in my opinion it‘s being realist. France is a fine example of a multi-cultural and multi-lingual society that today is one of the most homogeneous places on the planet. 

As for the writer of the article: Denouncing someone as a ‘racist‘ or anything else is a liberal tactic to discredit anyone who doesn‘t fall in line with liberal beleifs. 


Tyler


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## willy (13 Apr 2004)

Maybe Clasper can address this better than I can, and maybe I‘m even wrong, but my short stay in France a few weeks ago has pretty much convinced me that it is NOT a homogeneous nation at all.  Let‘s not forget about that headscarf ban and the associated public debate that they‘re having over there.  That doesn‘t sound to me like one of the trappings of a truly homogeneous nation.


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## clasper (13 Apr 2004)

Well, IMHO, France is a more homogeneous society than Canada.  The three tenets of the revolution (liberté, egalité, fraternité) seem to hold pretty well, and fraternité is the kicker.  The idea is that all Frenchman should feel fraternal towards each other, and shouldn‘t think of themselves as African-French, Vietnamese-French, etc.

In recent years, there has been an increase in isolationism among certain communities in France.  (I‘ve read Wes complaining about the same thing in Australia.)  The French government is making an effort to reintegrate these communities.  For example, the Chinese New Year parade was held down the Champs Elysées this year for the first time, instead of in Chinatown.  The ban on hijabs in school is a (misguided) attempt to make seperate communities within France feel more fraternal towards each other and reduce isolationism.

So while Paris is one of the world‘s most multicultural cities, most naturalized citizens think of themselves as French.  I ran into many more hyphenated nationalities in Toronto than I have in Paris, even though at a glance, the cities are roughly equally diverse.


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## winchable (13 Apr 2004)

Every French sailor I met when they were in town  was clearly of a different ehtnic background, but all of them referred to themselves as French first and foremost.

Melting pot..not so good.
Multi-Culuralism...also not so good.

I don‘t know if gang-wars and the like would stop if we gravitated towards a melting pot; Melting pot was the idea behind the new york immigrant wave, and that produced it‘s own share of problems.

I would have to disagree that melting pot is more realist than multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is an attempt at least addressing the obvious differences between Canadians of different origins, whereas a melting pot society could be interpreted as a supression of different backgrounds, and generally a supression can‘t last that long.

Sort of one of those, you‘re ****ed if you do, you‘re ****ed if you don‘t situations.

But discrediting someone as racist for trying to establish a set of common values and beliefs in a country is just uber-liberal and not particularly valid.


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## lostgrenadier (20 Apr 2004)

To me, the melting pot idea says that we do not accept or acknowledge any culture but "our own" . That being some kind of Anglo-saxon protestant sort of thing. A thriving culture is one that constantly grows and adapts. Otherwise it stagnates and dies.This idea of establishing a set of cultural norms and then forcing everyone to conform is frightening at best. You need to reread your twentieth century history to remind yourself of the dangerous paths this can lead to. Our culture is growing and vibrant as we continue to accept different and diverse peoples into it. And make no mistake, this is our Canadian culture. You just have to take a step back and really look at it to see it. The mosaic, in its present form, is not perfect. But it is a start, and in the long run, stands a better chance to prevail than the melting pot.


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## K. Ash (20 Apr 2004)

I couldn‘t agree with you more S_Baker.

If you don‘t agree with the values of a country stay the **** out. What could be simpler than that?


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

Unfortunately it is not so simple for the Native people living in North America before we got here.  They have nowhere else to go.


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## wongskc (20 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by S_Baker:
> [qb] The problem with Canada‘s "multicultuarlism"  is that a sizeable majority of people coming to Canada do not believe in the same things you and I do.  Respect for other religions, respect for other peoples differences, respect for our western way of life.  [/qb]


I live in a heavily multicultural neighbourhood here in Calgary and I see all those characteristics every day, both from the majority and the minority.  We do respect each other. We all have the same goals in life: to be sucessful, happy and safely raise families.  The only difference I can see is that we all eat different styles of food, and even then, there‘s a fair bit of mixing up



> [qb] Please see all that has been said about the Pakistani "Al Qaeda" family, they despise western culture, condem us as being decadent, etc...well my answer to that is F U, don‘t come!  I don‘t like Saudi Arabia, you don‘t see me emmigrating legally or illegally there....
> 
> My opinion is if you want to come to a western country you must embrace its values (without loosing your own identity), otherwise don‘t come... [/qb]


And I agree with you there on the Al Qaeda family, but not every immigrant familiy belongs to a terrorist group.  Many, many more people come to Canada (and the US) because they are trying to escape terrorists, dictators and war torn countries.

Terrorists such as Al Qaeda are a minute minority among minorities.  Yes, there will always be those who abuse immigration laws, and come to our countries seeking to leach off the system and possibly plan against us, but lets not forget that there were still spies and communist supporters here during the cold war.  This is nothing new.


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## Brad Sallows (20 Apr 2004)

In my view there are, broadly speaking, two flavours of multicultural policy:

1) We suffer / tolerate / ignore / enjoy each other‘s private cultural practices.

2) We force each other to share cultural values.

Multiculturalism does not necessarily improve tolerance; tolerance must exist for multiculturalism to be strifeless.  As long as respect is mutually accorded, there will be minimal problems.  If any group demands recognition of its culture while steadfastly refusing to recognize others, there will be many problems.  You can decide for yourself whether you believe there are any cultural groups which tend to practice unidirectional multiculturalism.

What does it mean for a politician to speak of "British" values or "Canadian" values?  Does he mean forcing immigrants to eat bangers and mash or poutine, or rather of forcing them to accept and practice rule of law, equality before the law, universality of human rights and freedoms, etc?

I believe that a society uninterested in affording duties and responsibilities absolute precedence over rights and privileges, or which fails to firm[ly] insist everyone abide by its core legal and social principles, will eventually fail.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

Its not immigration anymore. They are colonising! The poor UK is being held hostage thru the kindness, nieveity, and political correctiveness of their government. Look at the recent ‘loyal immigrants‘ who planned to blow up a shopping centre in London this week! Its out of control.

The sewer gates have opened, the shyte has flowed, and its too late.

I view the UK as a big giant Titanic, as I know many who have lived there all their lives and see their homeland has been raped by these ‘assylum seekers‘ who came from the shyteholes of the earth. Now the real English want to migrate to other countries.

Its really sad.

Abandon ship!

Regards,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

As for Sydney, in recent years we have seen our culture attacked, here is a few examples from the Christmas period alone...

- No Nativity scences in shopping centres in areas where some non-Christians live 

- No Santa Claus at some shopping centres either

- No Santas as some schools or Christmas parties

- No Christmas decorations put up by councils in areas where some ‘non‘ Christians live

- No Christmas or Easter programs on the TV

-  the ever increasing crimes of hatred against western women and men, and young men who are attacked by large groups of ‘others‘.

- on the news, Christmas Day is now referred to as a day "when Christians believe Christ was born". Not that I am a religious person, but this is getting out of hand!

- No ANZAC Day celebrations for fear of offending other cultures! Thats a shocker!

In Melbourne an elected muslim mayor wanted to ban all pork products from the suburb.

In Sydney, a public pool was closed to the general public so only muslim women could swim 

The changing of the Boy Scouts uniform, because it looked to military, not to offend other cultures who came from a war torn country. Their shirts are now BLUE T shirts BTW!

At the Sydney Easter Show last week, a group of 50 muslim youth clapping and chanting ALLAH ACKBAR ran amok thru the show (big fair) stealing and even beating a handicapped man up, finally stabbing an Aussie man (attacked at random) in the head with a screw driver infront of a group of children. They dispersed before the police could catch them.

The list goes on and on, and this from the top of my head.

We too are being ‘colonised‘ with PLO demonstrations in the streets, Pro OBL slogans painted on Jewish property, Also property has been burned, and cars destroyed.

No we too have to deal with terrorism from within our shores, and many arrests have been made. Recently a man of Pakistani origin was arrested on terr charges, and is now at the Super Max at Golburn Gaol!

There are about 240,000 Indiginous Aussies (Aboriginies), and around 450,000 muslims (with a small exception most who have come out here the past 20yrs or so, and more even the past 10 yrs), over 300,000 living in Sydney alone. I have walked the streets of my own city and had some very bad looks. Pretty sad when one feels that in his own country.

However at least our govt has the BALLS to become hardline with assylum seekers and people coming in illegally. we know its too,late now, but now we shelf em off shore until they are booted out and sent packing. Its a rare occasion now to have a boatload of ME DPs coming thru now, and when they do, its off to Christmas Island, and the CAPT of the vessel in question is arrested and sent to gaol for years.

Australia has had a big giant gutful of the lot, adn is becoming LESS tolorant everyday!

What are our countries going to be like for our kids, or worse our kids kids?

Remember I am just passing the info on, so dont shoot the messanger, as I am sure a few ‘bleeding heart do gooder snivel libertarians‘ will have a read and brand me something I am NOT.

Regards,

Wes


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## willy (20 Apr 2004)

Wesley H. Allen, CD:

While I agree with many of the things you have said in other threads regarding anti terrorist actions, etc, and while, frankly, I did sign the online petition regarding the Khadrs, I think that the above few posts show a blanket hatred for immigrants on your part, and I don‘t agree with that at all.  

I don‘t know you personally, of course, so maybe I‘m completely wrong, but reading those posts, it seems to me that you‘re concerned because immigrants don‘t conform exactly to your lifestyle, religious beliefs, etc.  I think its actually pretty ridiculous to be getting worked up about a lack of Santas in malls at Christmastime.  And so that you know, 25 Dec is actually not Jesus‘ actual birthdate, and that fact is fairly widely known.  You can read about the issue for yourself at the following website, which is run by a Christian research group, so don‘t think that this is an anti Christian conspiracy of any sort:
  http://www.bible-research.org/newsletters/0012/  

You‘re entitled to your opinion, of course, but I really don‘t understand why some of the things you‘ve listed above anger you so much.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

Fair enough pal, you have an opinion too, but you are obviously not effected by such happenings. So unless yo live it, and see it think twice before you post. If you want to keep teh blinders on thats okay with me.

I am not really angry about it, i recognise the problem, thats all. And it is a BIG problem here.

Remember the Bali bombings of 12 Oct 2002, when 202 people were killed by radical Islamics ( seems we all think about Spain). Of the 202 89 were Australians on holiday and many from my own suburb, who were only gulirty of having a few drinks with family and friends. Whole families were vapourised. When was the last time Canada had 89 civvy people killed in a terror bombing? I hope never. Its a different kettle of fish here.

Remember that befoer you try to chastise me!

Personally I think it sad when our Christma time is disrupted by such ongoing, and if you think its silly to see your culture put aside, then speak to other Australians! 

As I said, I am only the messanger, so dont go taking a shot at me for telling you the truth about whats going on here.

Regards,

Wes


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## willy (20 Apr 2004)

I do remember the Bali bombing, and that‘s why I said that I agree with many of the anti terrorist comments you‘ve made.  I think we can both agree that the terrorists responsible are criminals of the worst kind, as are the people responsible for the various acts of violence you described in those posts.  It wasn‘t every immigrant that committed those acts though, so as convenient, and at times, tempting as it is to do so, it isn‘t fair to blame them all for it.

Also with regards to this statement made by you:
"There are about 240,000 Indiginous Aussies (Aboriginies), and around 450,000 muslims (with a small exception most who have come out here the past 20yrs or so, and more even the past 10 yrs), over 300,000 living in Sydney alone. I have walked the streets of my own city and had some very bad looks. Pretty sad when one feels that in his own country".

The aboriginals were in Australia thousands of years before anyone else.  So making mention of them in an anti immigration rant is, to me, nothing short of pure racism.  And correct me if I‘m wrong, but aren‘t you a Canadian who moved to Australia?  Aren‘t you yourself an immigrant?  In that case, how is Sydney "your" city any more than it is anyone else‘s?

As for myself, I grew up in Vancouver, which, in the past 20 years or so, has had a massive influx of Chinese and other Asian immigrants.  There are areas of Vancouver nowadays where Cantonese is the most commonly heard language.  I know all about living in a city that has been swamped with immigrants.  I suppose it can be a little unnerving to no longer be the dominant racial group.  But it‘s something that has to be accepted, because times change, and not neccessarily for the worse.  I don‘t think it‘s something to get worked up over.


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## gate_guard (20 Apr 2004)

Well I, for one, can understand some of the sentiments raised by Mr Allen, even though he clearly stated that he was just passing on info and not presenting a viewpoint. I took it as info to think about. I‘ve read the growing list of posts on this thread and I agree with some points and disagree with others. As stated previously by lostgrenadier, Canada has chosen the mosaic model of integration which sees it‘s society as a puzzle of various backgrounds. Compare this to the U.S.‘s melting pot model where new cultures are expected to adapt their previous background to a common society. Perhaps this is why the U.S. appears to be much more vocal about it‘s national pride. At any rate, I don‘t see the mosaic model as one that promotes a strong national identity. What you end up with is too many different "factions" fighting to promote their own interests. People can talk about living in peace together and understanding and respecting everyone‘s culture but the truth of the matter is that a group, be it political, racial, ethnic or religious, will always in the end look out for it‘s own interests. A mosaic society such as Canada‘s will never have complete unity in terms of political or moral ideals because everyone is all over the map with regards to who or what‘s right and wrong. 

The funny thing is we as western society are so busy trying to accomodate those from other countries so that we don‘t offend them and so they feel welcome. Think about if one of us were to move to a hardline Muslim country, or any other strict culture for that matter, and only spoke english, ate hot dogs, had a few beers after work, tried to set up a Christian church and basically adopt a western style of living, I wonder how long their accomodating spirit would last.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

As for our Indiginous brothers, I am referring to them simply as a qty in this case, comparing their population to the qty of migrants from another culture. So dont try reading between the lines. Australias population is what Canada‘s was 35 yrs ago (about 19 million).

As I said, I AM ONLY THE MESSENGER! So dont go shooting me between the eyes from the hip for no reason.

Yes, I am Canadian born, but I did not bring Canada with me, I left that behind. Although I never forget where I come from, and I am totally proud of that. If I am asked where I come from, I state I am Australian but born in Canada. Yes, my heritage is from Northern Ireland, but you dont see me supporting the IRA or the UDR, however I do enjoy St Patricks Day, like we all do.  

I love going into Sydney‘s Chinatown. It great. very friendly people, and most humble to. There is no serious unrest and turbulance in our Asian communities, but its a different story in the muslim ghettos of Sydney‘s southwest. Sadly thats fact, not fiction. I am not pointing the finger at anyone, but SIMPLY just reporting what happens here. We cannot lie about the truth, can we.

I learned about the way things are here, and accepted the Australian culture, and I was accepted with open arms in return too. I EARNED my citizenship, and have adapted to society here, as many others have. I did not drag my culture here, nor try to force it upon others in any way, as others are tyring to do.

Have you ever been threatened, or had your girl friend spat at, and called as slut because her arms and legs were showing (when you are at the beach), or followed and abused by a dozen arabic speaking muslims? I have. What about some local boys who were hospitalised by a group of muslims just for being Australian? It happens all to often here.

There is a serious cultural issue down here which is continuing to constantly boil and overheat. Sadly is islam vs the rest( and I dont mean the west). We read about it in the papers and see it on the news. Again thats a fact. A group of muslim men attacked and killed 14 yr old Asian boy as he walked to a friends birthday party. He was murdered in cold blood because of teh colour of his skin.

Frankly, I wish we could all get along, and celebrate, enjoying our food and drink, but the reality of it all, thats not true. if you want to see islamic unrest in Sydney try www.islamicsydney.com and go to the forums for a small taste of what its like here.

Again dont go branding me something I am NOT. I simply want harmony and peace in my own country for all who live here, and for them to obey our laws as most od anyway, and if the others that come here want to fight, they can go to their homeland and do it.

Regards,

Wes


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## willy (20 Apr 2004)

If that was your intent with the aboriginal comment, then I apologize.  It was not clear to me as you initially wrote it.  

There are all kinds of asian gangs in Vancouver, who are responsible for all kinds of terrible violence.  I rememeber one time (well, I sort of remember one time) when a friend of mine and I were drunk and walked into a bar (the wrong one, it turns out), and were the only two white guys in the whole place.  We got a lot of terrible looks, and there were some delightful comments made.  We got out of there before it turned ugly.  I can empathize with your position in such situations, however, I don‘t think it‘s fair to blame "immigrants" for that problem, rather, I blame the individuals responsible.   And while I do agree that anyone coming to a new country is going to have to deal with a certain amount of change, I certainly don‘t expect them to check their previous life at the door, and I think that "natives" of the country are going to have to be prepared to accept a little change themselves, because that‘s just the way life works.  In other words, when I drive out to Richmond (heavily Asian municipality in Greater Vancouver), I‘m prepared to accept the fact that I‘m the minority there.  No big deal.  I‘m not trying to say that immigration and multiculturalism isn‘t or shouldn‘t be an issue at all- there are definitely problems, as with everything- but I don‘t honestly see it as such a big deal.  I don‘t think that ANY society has EVER, through the course of human history, had "complete unity in terms of political or moral ideals" (Gate Guard), so I don‘t think it‘s reasonable to expect it.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

Sure there are some problems with some triads here, mainly drugs and turf, and if there is killings its between themselves. Never really any big news, and fight amoung themselves.

In regards to the muslim gangs and the younger generation of islamic youth in Sydney, there is a hatred for everyone except themselves. This is so evident the city of Sydney where the main popluation base is (300,000 out of 4 million). 

Other cities like Melbourne have them too, but not as many, and they dont have the problem as we in Sydney do. There is so much negativity here.

Large ehtnic populations of say Greek for example. Melbourne has the largest population of Australians from a Greek background
next to Athens! Fact. No problems there.

The islamic elders seem to bury their heads in the sand, meanwhile suicide bombings are never condemmed, and the Australia is criticised by them for being invloved not only in Iraq, but Afghanistan too. 

Sydneysiders too, will never forget the dancing in the streets here in the western suburbs after 11 Sep 01. The slogans on fences supporting OBL, and the death of the USA. Pretty sick stuff, and it thrives still.

Their kids, who are Australian born refer to themsselves as the country of their heritage, and are very anti-Australian. Its almost unbelieveble when you read about it, but then when you or someone you know become victims, then its a different story entirely.

So what can be done about it? Education you say?. Humm. Many fundimentalist islamic schools are thriving in Sydney, and what re they being taught? Take a guess.

A well known and respected Australian, Alan Jones has recently said " have we now because of milticulturism created an islamic community in Australia that is more aligned with islam than it is Australia". If so I find that a very dangerous reality, which is a very sorry thing to ponder.

As you are starred at as you walk by one can sense and feel the seething hated towards us. yes, and its for real.

Honestly, I wish it was not true.

Okay, at the end of the day, what do I personally want? Its simple. Equality and fairness for all, with us all having mutal respect for each other, no matter who we are, or what religion or country we come from. Strangly enough, it seems to be a one way street these days with lots of ‘taking‘ and no ‘giving‘ in return. 

Again dont shoot me for passing on some information.

Regards,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

Good post!

Cheers,

Wes


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## winchable (20 Apr 2004)

I don‘t think anyone would describe those ME govt‘s as tolerant, so lets say we all agree on that.
I‘ve read the thread over a few times, it‘s all reasonable stuff.
I wouldn‘t describe the influx of immigrants who do not tolerate,(or actively pursue to end) as a sizeable majority.
The difference is you hear from the loudest and worst people not the quiet cab drivers, business owners, who while they may disagree with what could be interperted as western excess will not go as far as the few loudmouths have. It‘s unfortunate that people choose to focus on the negatives, but thems are the breaks i suppose.

Wes is just giving facts and personal accounts, so it‘s hardly racist of him either.

yadda yadda yadda,
Moderation in anything is the way to go, that goes for either side of this grate debate.
Equality, fairness etc. are great things to teach.
I believe it was major baker, who suggested that when you immigrate to a country you should be prepared to adopt the values etc. of said country then (while not losing their own identity).
I think there‘s probably more to that than what was said; in fact, that‘s an excellent point, probably the best point on the thread.
The problem is when people take the "not losing the identity point" to an extreme, it‘s just as bad as any other extreme. unfortunately it‘s those ignorants (that live everywhere) who use Canadian citizenship like a membership at Nubody‘s.

When my mother emigrated to the UK from Oman, she did it because of political turmoil (also because a "charming" canadian sailor paid her way there) and then after moving to Canada, while she didn‘t like many of the things she saw as excesses of the west (Halifax has alot of bars) hookers on Hollis st. etc. She didn‘t hate the entire west for it. She retained her Muslim identity while contributing in a meaningful way and raising two children (mostly on her own....GO NAVY) forcing us both to go to sunday school and mosque on Friday at lunch. 
It wasn‘t all roses, when I turned 19 and discovered, that hey..halifax does have alot of bars, she wasn‘t pleased and voiced it..though I don‘t remmeber that... Nor was she pleased when our Masjid (local learned muslim leader) had his house firebombed, or when my sisters hajib was torn off and spat on, she also didn‘t appreciated being arrested when the police thought she was abducting me from school (re: picking me up from class), and I know I didn‘t appreciate it when our copy of the Qu‘Ran was stolen and torn to pieces at my highschool.

I forgot where i was going..oh yeah, well I consider that the best example of what the MAJORITY of immigrants to Canada do (i won‘t speak for any other country) and a fine example of an practical ideal situation in what was at times an ugly place.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

Interesting post Che. I am sorry you had to experience the dark side of some people‘s attitudes, and there is no excuse for that behaviour. It is totally un-Canadian.

Another Australian disgrace is the website      www.islam.org.au ,or do a google search on islamic youth movement australia. Try www.english.aljazeera.net and have a squizz at the cartoons too, many portraying the US and its Allies as a wicked eveil enemy. Again I find this really twisted stuff, which all of us should educate ourselves on this ‘eyes and ears for the enemy‘ network. 

You‘ll be suprised as whats on these Australian based sites, and what is being pounded into the heads of young influenceful muslims in Australia.

Ther is an article on www.islamicsydney.com called "Israel, the New Nazi Order", which also includes countries such as the USA, UK and yes Australia.

Again pretty scary stuff, and yes it TRULY concerns me, especially since thier HQ is about 45km from my house, not 4,500 km!

At least I am sure emails going in and out of these ‘terrorist supporting apparatus‘ are being monitered as you read this.

These people who run and support these websites are simply putting their faith before their country, and their alliance is not with this great southern land, but with a religion, and by the looks of it on the twisted fanatcal side of it at that, and we know what that spells, dont we. This too is scary, and in many cases quite frightening. 

Really now, are these purveyers of anti-western and anti-Australianism ideals Australians, or right wing fanatical muslims living in, and sucking what they can out of Australia?

Since we all know and understasnd the terrorist threat is very much alive and well here in Sydney, WHEN, not if, there is an ATTACK here, this may indeed sadly set off a huge chain reaction agsinst islam throughout Australia, and  especially here in Sydney, as the mainstream Australians are totally fed up with whats going on right under our noses.

A while back I surrendered leaflets to the authorities which were put on car windscreens claiming that Christians and Jews were infidels and were the true enemy of Islam, and other propaganda. Some of most bizarre anti-western stuff I have ever witnessed, and I compare it to what was being read back in say mid 1930‘s Germany. 

These were from cars parked nearthe Lakemba mosque located in the ghettos of western Sydney. A good friend who is an electrician was in the area doing a job. He found one on his truck, and took others from surrounding vehilces.

In that same area he was set upon by 5 muslim young men, who stabbed him in the thy, as his legs dangled from a crawl space entrance he was servicing in a public hallway in a housing commission building. He reckons a quick call to 0-0-0 on his mobile phone saved his life. To keep them at bay til the police arrived (5 mins), he threw roofing tiles at them. Four of the five were caught and charged, and were let out on bail befoer the evening that day.

My friend lost a lot of blood, and had about 19 stitches to close his wound. He was off work for a few weeks. He now refuses to go into these areas, as he fears for his life, and in the past had to pay ‘protection‘ money to the local boys to ensure his truck would not be vandalised when not in attendance of his vehicle while doing a job.


Unfortuantly along with the radicals the sensible will be tarred with the same brush. Lets hope this never happens, but maybe there the hidden agenda by the fanatics to inspire more hatred of us ‘infidels‘, by in fact causing us to react to islam as a whole within our boundries. 

This alone would create much heat from Indonesia and surrounding countries that have high islamic populations, hence alienating Australia more from its neighbours, and putting a tick in the box for the fundimentalists.

Cheers,

Wes


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## winchable (21 Apr 2004)

Perhaps now you better understand my standpoint on the situation?

The situation in Canada is very different from the one in Australia, which is probably due to Australias location in relation to Indonesia, but really I have no idea about the aussie sit so I won‘t speculate.


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## 1feral1 (21 Apr 2004)

Exactly Malik. Exactly. Now we both know where we both stand. Being in the region does play a great part on our anxiety here.

Please feel free to have a sticky-beek (Aussie slang for a look) at those sites.


Cheers,

Wes


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## lostgrenadier (21 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by S_Baker:
> [qb] Lostgrenadier,
> 
> sounds nice doesn‘t it?  However as with everything it is always better in the lab or as a theory.  Since when has Canada been anything but "Anglo-Saxon?"  I guess if you count the last 30 yrs.  Before that it was exclusively settled by Europeans, right or wrong, that is the way it was.
> ...


I did not in way shape or form mean to condone people coming here to perpetuate old fights and hatreds. Of course, if you come here, you should be expected to abide by our standards of tolerance and equality. Above all, leave your ethnic differences and hatreds behind. When I spoke of evolving and adapting, I meant it as a universal, not a one way street.


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## winchable (21 Apr 2004)

I think I may have inferred rather unfair things on your character in the past, wanted to clear that up. It‘s not that I‘m a total bleeding heart libertarian, I‘ve just had so much racism directed at my family and myself that I tend to get a bit twitchy when I sense it.

I‘ve seen them, believe me I couldn‘t advocate things like that. I generally chalk them up as not ambassadors of my faith, rather as propagandists of a sect within my faith. They‘re doing a service to their particular sect, while doing an awful disservice to the majority.


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## 1feral1 (21 Apr 2004)

Another good post Malik, and I agree 110% with what you said. Almost a 180 degree ‘role reversal‘, as what you sadly have experienced in Halifax by maistream Canadians, I have expereinced here by what I hope is a minority of muslims (while in a majority of muslim populated area, and in mainstream Aussie populated areas visited by a majority of muslims on warm holidays and weekends -- literally we are forced out of our own places of fun) a countrty mainly of North west European ancestry.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Apr 2004)

Hey Wes , send the FARKer‘s after their site!  :evil:


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2004)

Just wondering if any of you have read "The Trouble with Islam" by Ishrad Manji, a Canadian Muslim women who immigrated here.  I found it very good in getting to the root of that "civilizational" struggle I was talking about on another thread.  I still think the current problem is something bigger than terrorism or oil, and Ms. Manji‘s assessment seems to be in agreement.

Here is the amazon link

  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312326998/qid=1082612083/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-4495574-4849469?v=glance&s=books 

One reviewer had a pretty good summery of some important arguements


> First, she rejects the notion, popular since 9/11, that the problem isn‘t Islam but that Islam has been ‘highjacked‘ by murderous psychopaths. No, she says: Mainstream Islam IS the culprit; it is cruel and even brutal toward women, toward Jews, toward Christians, toward all other infidels--even toward other Muslims. Dissident Muslims can be and have been beaten, imprisoned, killed. Muslims who aren‘t religious enough (e.g., those impious, kite-flying Afghanis) have been crushed. (Indeed, they were the Taliban‘s first victims: There‘s nothing fundamentalists hate more than apostates.)
> 
> As for the simplistic idea that "you mustn‘t confuse Islam with culture," she‘s all too well aware that Islam and such cultural horrors as Sharia law go hand in hand, each supporting the other. Sharia law, you may recall, means honor killings, punishing homosexuals by toppling walls on them, punishing adulteresses by stoning them to death, and defining rape victims as adulteresses.
> 
> She is clear on Islam‘s hermetic nature: Ask a question and get no answer, especially if you‘re a woman. Propose interpretation and be told the Koran is the literal word of God--and that the ‘hadiths‘ or secondary sources are likewise not to be questioned, analyzed, interpreted. The source of this closed view is, she says, "desert Islam"--the narrow, harsh Wahabist Islam of Saudi Arabia. Its hermeticism is only increasing. The Koran, according to fundamentalists, can‘t be translated but must be read in Arabic (some also believe that only Arabs are "real Muslims"), and the Wahabist madressas (religious schools) don‘t want many people to read it even in Arabic. They don‘t teach reading but foster illiteracy; their students must learn to recite Koranic verses by rote.


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## 1feral1 (22 Apr 2004)

Meanwhile in Sydney today another terrorist arrested in the muslim ghetto of Lakemba. Seems to be all related to the LET (Lashkar-E-Taiba)terror group and the Wahibi sect of the Sunni side of Islam. Do a google search on wahibi or wahibbi, and see what you turn up.

For todays news try www.new.com.au or www.dailtelegraph.com.au and views from the "opposing team‘s" prospective www.islamicsydney.com 

Again today an islamc terror group called Yello-Red Overseas Organisation based out of Thailand, has promised an attack in Australia by months end for interfering with East Timor, Afghanistan, and Iraq, anlong with 7 other nations. The letter was delivered to the South Koreans today. I cant believe it, but this even made the US news. Go to www.foxnews.com 

As I have said before, its a very real clear and present danger here, and the govt expects an attack at any moment. As I have said before, even our PM has said its just a matter of time. 

Is Australia ready? No for the general public, but i feel the ADF and security forces are trained as as prepared as they can get. But the Australian public will deal when an attack comes  the best way we can.

Cheers,

Wes


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## muskrat89 (22 Apr 2004)

From today‘s "Arizona Republic"



> Voices for peace
> Join Muslims in raising yours
> 
> Apr. 21, 2004 12:00 AM
> ...


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