# Education Options



## Zee (1 Apr 2006)

I'm 19, applying for ROTP. If I'm rejected I've thought of two things, the latter of the two in which I need some insight to. #1 Join the reserves while earning my degree. #2 Join the Reg Force and earn a degree part-time. I've been on the continuing ed  website and I'm under the impression that I can earn a degree, I suppose via correspondence, but I also noticed they mentioned something about full time studies in which I'm not sure about. If anyone has the experience to enlighten me to their opinion on options #2 I'd appreciate it quite a lot. I've done some searches, though I'm sure I'll be proven I haven't done enough. My primary concern hasn't to do with who's paying for the education, but rather if it'd just be more trouble to do it the second way, instead of the first way. Look forward to your opinions. And if you wanted to know why I want to join the Reg Force so quickly, it's to gain experience and a respect for hard work that I plan to make a career out of,  hopefully with the chance to be part of a tour. Thanks.


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## Wookilar (1 Apr 2006)

I worked toward my degree part-time for 5 years. All of that time I spent in one of two first-line units, went on two tours, numerous exercises (home and down south), a flood, an ice storm, an APEC, and a G-7(8?). Doing home work in the field, at home, wherever I had to. In that five years time, I managed to complete 9 credits. A standard full year at most universities is 10 (5 per semester). 
If I had a base side posting, with fewer things going on, I may have completed more. But, the ones I had done earned me a lot of points when I applied for the UTPNCM program. Now, I'm full time finishing my degree. Degree wise, it will take about 9 years to finish my degree.
Now, for me, the degree is not my goal. I wanted a Queen's Commission and the degree is the way I choose to do it (over a CFR, or SC once I was done part-time).
It can be done, part-time while in the Reg Force, but it will take a long time. If the degree is your driving force, that may not be the best option for you. While being an NCM, you will earn valuable experience while working toward your ultimate goal. Experience that many of your peers will not have. The same goes with the Res while attending university full time (if you take full advantage of summer training).
The two (or three) paths are very different and I can not honestly say that one is better than the other. What I am doing is the best one for me (and my family). Good luck with what ever you choose (and with your ROTP application).


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## SweetNavyJustice (1 Apr 2006)

Wookilar provided you with a great amount of information.  The only thing I would add, is that the UTPNCM (the CF subsidizing your education full-time) is never a guarantee for you.  For those of us in the CF, we know this, but you may not.  It is a very competative program as one might expect considering you receive your salary and have your schooling paid for.  

As Wookilar has said (by suggesting what was most important to him [degree = commission, you can't have one without the other]), you need to determine what is most important to you vis-a-vie the degree or the job with the CF.  If your degree is what is most important then get it done first (through ROTP or otherwise).  If a position within the CF is what's most important then sign on the dotted line; whatever they throw at you.  

If you don't have any university courses completed thus far be assured that as an NCM ESPECIALLY in the start of your career, you will have limited time to take courses.  You'll be too busy training to be a soldier/sailor, or airman/woman.  Not to say that it can't be done, but a number of us who've gone the UTPNCM route who didn't have university courses under our belt did them in exotic locations.  For myself, two of my courses were taken while on tour in Afghanistan.  

With whatever you choose, good luck and have fun.


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## Zee (1 Apr 2006)

Thanks for the replies. It's funny how I didn't hesitate to believe that I absolutely need a degree. When it comes down to it, a degree on it's own is really nothing more than a highschool diploma these days. But putting it into context-a degree or a commission-makes a lot more sense. To be quite honest, if I do plan to make a career out of the military, which seems to be my thinking, being an NCM for several years would probably benefit me when or possibly even if I decide I'd like a commission. I feel much more comfortable about this decision now.This has been helpful. Thanks...


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## GO!!! (1 Apr 2006)

Zee,

I would warn you against the part time studies while in the CF as an enlisted man.

CFUP (Canadian Forces University Plan) has been cancelled, and there is no replacement for it in the forseeable future. I am nearly finished my degree right now, having done two thirds of it in the CF,  and it has been a long, stressful, difficult road. There is no more depressing feeling than coming home from a 3 week exercise and having to sit down with all of your books and study for an exam or hammer out an assignment due in two days. No amount of planning can mitigate the last minute changes that military life entails.

I have also found many supervisors to be hostile to higher education, which can create difficulties when you require an afternoon off to write an exam, or need a signature from them in support of your school. 

The disdain with which many employers and schools (especially if you want to get into grad school) hold "mail in" degrees in is also well known, which could jeopardize your chances outside the military later on.

If you worked extremely hard, took an area of study offered by a distance school, and passed all of your classes the first time, you could take the equivalent of 4 full credit classes a year. (24 credits). This means you could finish a 3 year degree in the humanities in 3.5 years, IF you were not deployed, put on any demanding courses, approved for entry into the program, and passed everything the first time around.

Distance Ed can be done in the CF, but it is very difficult and takes a long time. Go to school first, then join the army, it is a far better choice - those student loans can't last forever!


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## kincanucks (1 Apr 2006)

_I would warn you against the part time studies while in the CF as an enlisted man._

and it is equally as hard trying to do it as an officer.


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## Wookilar (2 Apr 2006)

GO!!! brings up a number of valid points, but I do have a few things to add. 
All of my courses were in house, either night school or weekend classes. Most bases have classes at night, through RMC hiring local profs. You never know what you are going to get, and you usually don't know if you will be home for them. And they are cheaper than civy school, usually by about half. The only correspondence ones I did were my OPDP/OPME's. 
I may not have made it to all my classes, and a few of my exams were written in exotic locations (a CP in Wainwright) with a very lucky duty officer administering it. I know there is a lot of issues going on with the CFUP program being canceled, but it's not the only way. 
The civy institutions I went to (3 different ones, all in Edmonton), and the profs I had (6, all told), all were willing to work with me and get things done. Also, the Division of Continuing Studies (through RMC) has expanded over the last 5 years (which may be one of the factors that lead to the cancellation of the CFUP) and their course and degree offerings are growing every year.


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## SweetNavyJustice (2 Apr 2006)

If educating yourself is ones goal (and perhaps trying to pursue a commission in the case of an NCM), then you face the challenges.  People are starting to talk about how it's hard to take university courses while working full-time in the CF or while deployed.  Sure it's hard, but where there is a will, there is a way.  I was in school 4 nights a week while still managing my 'normal' workload, and did two other courses through webbased learning while on Roto 1 in Afghanistan.  All through UVic. 

As for the CFUP being cancelled, does the CF not still have the benefit of providing up to $1000/yr of service up to a 20K max for education?  It's just that now you have to submit an Individual Learning Plan (ILP) and have it accepted before you can seek reinbursment.  It still sounds like a great deal to me, and if education is one's interest either officer or NCM, it is still one of the best deals going.  Hard or Not!


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## GO!!! (2 Apr 2006)

SweetNavyJustice said:
			
		

> If educating yourself is ones goal (and perhaps trying to pursue a commission in the case of an NCM), then you face the challenges.  People are starting to talk about how it's hard to take university courses while working full-time in the CF or while deployed.  Sure it's hard, but where there is a will, there is a way.  I was in school 4 nights a week while still managing my 'normal' workload, and did two other courses through webbased learning while on Roto 1 in Afghanistan.  All through UVic.



While your achievement is laudable, there is a big difference between working in a static position as an Int Op and being in a cbt arms unit. You would not have been able to go to school 4 nights a week if you were in a Light Infantry Bn - period. Also, most of us do not have a civvie U as close as you do. It is not simply a matter of drive and determination - circumstance plays a big part.

I have yet to see a field exercise, never mind a deployment, with enough computer access for troops to facilitate web based learning - once again, the service trades have advantages here not applicable to the average soldier.

 I am trying to explain that if this person joins a cbt arms trade, it is unlikely that they will finish a degree within 6 years.



> As for the CFUP being cancelled, does the CF not still have the benefit of providing up to $1000/yr of service up to a 20K max for education?



Nope. 

This was cancelled November 05 if I remember correctly, and is outlined at your BPSO office under Educational Reimbursement. CFUP was the program by which the UofM had a dedicated office that facilitated member's education and equivalencies under contract from the DND. You are now only subsidised to the completion of your first qualification, and then cut off.


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## SweetNavyJustice (2 Apr 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> ...there is a big difference between working in a static position as an Int Op and being in a cbt arms unit. You would not have been able to go to school 4 nights a week if you were in a Light Infantry Bn - period. Also, most of us do not have a civvie U as close as you do. It is not simply a matter of drive and determination - circumstance plays a big part.
> 
> I have yet to see a field exercise, never mind a deployment, with enough computer access for troops to facilitate web based learning - once again, the service trades have advantages here not applicable to the average soldier.



Just to clarify one point and to add another.  Before being accepted into university I had to finish high school.  I did this through correspondance while deployed on ship in the Persian Gulf.  Back in '99, it was before the days of regular internet etc and I had all my assignments sent home with the various groups of people heading to Canada on LTA's etc.  All paper.  

Second, while yes I was lucky enough to have UVic close buy and lucky enough to be in an "office" job I did still do two courses while deployed in Afghanistan.  And let me tell you, compared to what the Navy guys had available to them while at sea an Army person deployed has WAY more access to the internet etc.  With the obvious exception being to the first troops in on TAV's etc while the camp is being set up. 

I'm not trying to start a "my Dad is bigger then your Dad" kind of discussion, I just think no matter what the person's situation is if they want their education then they can get it with work.  UTPNCM and it's requirements have been around longer then both you and I have and I'm sure the situations that people were in to get their required courses done was more difficult then we've had it.


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## GO!!! (3 Apr 2006)

SweetNavyJustice said:
			
		

> Second, while yes I was lucky enough to have UVic close buy and lucky enough to be in an "office" job I did still do two courses while deployed in Afghanistan.  And let me tell you, compared to what the Navy guys had available to them while at sea *an Army person deployed has WAY more access to the internet etc*.  With the obvious exception being to the first troops in on TAV's etc while the camp is being set up.



On my last deployment we lived in crew tents and trenches and ate IMP and MREs for six months straight. I believe that there were 6 computers for the last two months of the tour. 

It can be done (we are both proof of that) but it is not an ideal solution - especially when one can get into civvie u and join DEO later on.


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## Zee (3 Apr 2006)

Well I'd have to say this was the exact sort of info I was looking for. My trade will be within the combat arms, most likely infantry. I gather I'd be deployed at least once during my first 3 year contract, making things difficult, though not impossible. Thanks for the input. I wanted nothing more than to hear first hand accounts. In any case though, when my worst case scenario is just as acceptable as my best case scenario, I don't have much to complain about. As for right now, I believe I have some more reading to finish before any decisions are made. Thanks again...


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## muffin (3 Apr 2006)

Hello - 

Since I had mentioned in a similar thread that I would keep the info I had on CFUP and education as current as I could, I thought I would post the following -

UNCLASSIFIED
CANFORGEN 055-06 ADM (HR-MIL) 055 301238Z MAR-06

CANFORGEN 055/06 ADM(HR-MIL) 023 301238Z MAR 06
PROGRAM DELIVERY - CANADIAN FORCES CONTINUING EDUCATION PROGRAM 
(CFCEP) AND MILITARY CIVILIAN TRAINING ACCREDITATION PROGRAM (MCTAP)
UNCLASSIFIED
REFS: A. DAOD 5031-5 CANADIAN FORCES CONTINUING EDUCATION PROGRAM  
B. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 17-04 EDUCATION REIMBURSEMENT FOR THE REGULAR FORCE  
C. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 18/04 ADVANCED DEGREE - PART-TIME PROGRAMME FOR REGULAR FORCE 
OFFICERS  
D. ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 19/04 INITIAL BACCALAUREATE DEGREE PROGRAM (PART-TIME) FOR REGULAR 
FORCE OFFICERS  
E. CBI 210.802 - SKILLS COMPLETION PROGRAM - REGULAR FORCE  
F. CBI 210.801 - EDUCATION REIMBURSEMENT - PRIMARY RESERVE 
1.	AS PER REF A, THE AIM OF THE CANADIAN FORCES CONTINUING EDUCATION PROGRAM (CFCEP) IS TO 
FACILITATE ACCESS TO POST-SECONDARY INSTITUTIONS. CFCEP ACCOMMODATES THE SPECTRUM OF 
OPPORTUNITIES AVAILABLE AT THE INSTITUTIONS OF THE MEMBERS CHOICE. AS SUCH, THE DISTINCT 
SUBORDINATE ELEMENTS OF CFCEP I.E. THE CANADIAN FORCES COMMUNITY COLLEGE PROGRAM 
(CFCCP) AND THE CANADIAN FORCES UNIVERSITY PROGRAM (CFUP) ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED. 
MEMBERS WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE ACCESS TO EDUCATION SERVICES AND RECEIVE FUNDING UPON 
SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF APPROVED PROGRAMS/COURSES AT ACCREDITED INSTITUTIONS OF 
THEIR CHOICE 
2.	THE CFUP CONTRACT WITH UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA AND TELE-UNIVERSITE DU QUEBEC WILL END 31 
MAR 06. A CONTRACT WITH REVISED REQUIREMENTS WILL BE TENDERED VIA COMPETITION. SERVICES 
AS PER REF A WILL CONTINUE TO BE PROVIDED. EDUCATION REIMBURSEMENT (ER) WILL CONTINUE AS 
PER REFS B TO F, AND MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO LIAISE WITH EDUCATION COORDINATORS FOR 
FURTHER INFO OR VISIT THE CDA WEBSITE. COMMENTS OR CONCERNS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE 
CFCEP NATIONAL COORDINATOR, FERNANDE WHITFIELD VIA EMAIL (WHITFIELD.FT AT FORCES.GC.CA) 
OR AT (613) 541-5010, EXT 3977 OR CSN 271-3977 
3.	THE CONTRACTED PORTION OF MCTAP WITH COLLEGE AHUNTSIC TO EVALUATE MILITARY TRAINING AND 
EDUCATION FOR COLLEGE LEVEL CREDIT ENDED ON 31 DEC 05. CDA WILL TENDER A REPLACEMENT 
CONTRACT THROUGH AN OPEN COMPETITION PROCESS AND ADVISE ON THE RESULTS ONCE THE 
COMPETITION PROCESS IS COMPLETED. CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED OF ELIGIBILITY FOR A ONE-TIME 
REIMBURSEMENT OF FEES FOR A PRIOR LEARNING ASSESSMENT (PLA) CONDUCTED BY AN 
ACCREDITED CANADIAN POST-SECONDARY INSTITUTION. PSO OFFICES CAN PROVIDE ASSISTANCE IN 
THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INDIVIDUAL LEARNING PLAN (ILP) THAT INCLUDES A PLA FOR THE PROGRAM 
AND INSTITUTION OF THEIR CHOICE. COMMMENTS OR QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE STAFF 
OFFICER, ACCREDITATIONS AND EQUIVALENCIES, JANET LANG VIA EMAIL (LANG.JM AT FORCES.GC.CA) 
OR AT (613) 541-5010 EXT 3861 OR CSN 271-3861 
4.	CDA WEBSITE WRT EDUCATION REIMBURSMENT, CFCEP AND MCTAP AT 
HTTP://WWW.CDA.FORCES.GC.CA/ER/ENGRAPH/MSS/MSS UNDERSCORE E.ASP


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## Leo791989 (23 May 2006)

Gents
I am in a similar situation. But I have already completed 2 yrs of University here in Calgary and can not continue my education due to financial reasons. I eventually want to finish up on my education and get commissioned. 
But for now I do need to join forces and get a NCM occupation as a Met Tech. Any info on what is a working style of a Met Tech. Would be possible for me to continue my part time education or it'd be hard like a combat arms trade.
Thanks


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## Journeyman (23 May 2006)

1. 





> CANFORGEN 055-06 ADM (HR-MIL) 055 301238Z MAR-06: THE CFUP CONTRACT WITH UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA AND TELE-UNIVERSITE DU QUEBEC WILL END 31 MAR 06. A CONTRACT WITH REVISED REQUIREMENTS *WILL BE TENDERED * VIA COMPETITION. SERVICES.


2.  





> _IBID.: _THE CONTRACTED PORTION OF MCTAP WITH COLLEGE AHUNTSIC TO EVALUATE MILITARY TRAINING AND EDUCATION FOR COLLEGE LEVEL CREDIT ENDED ON 31 DEC 05. CDA *WILL TENDER A REPLACEMENT * CONTRACT THROUGH AN OPEN COMPETITION PROCESS AND ADVISE ON THE RESULTS ONCE THE COMPETITION PROCESS IS COMPLETED.


3. 





> Pers email: I know of at least two reserve officers who have completed the Joint Reserve Command and Staff Course, which advertises graduate-degree credits, only to be told "the credit transfer system is *still awaiting approval*." Canadian Forces College continues to advertise these credits for the upcoming JRCSC.



All this to say, the Canadian Defence Academy is writing cheques they are not capable of cashing. Despite educational upgrading being cited repeatedly as a bedrock of ongoing CF "transformation," they are cancelling programs that have proven advantageous to CF troops with no replacement programs, and advertising programs that do not exist. 

Just ensure your info is current when making any momentous decisions; the system is not being supported nearly as well as it used to be, and some advice may be no longer valid.


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## GO!!! (24 May 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> 1. 2.  3.
> All this to say, the Canadian Defence Academy is writing cheques they are not capable of cashing. Despite educational upgrading being cited repeatedly as a bedrock of ongoing CF "transformation," they are cancelling programs that have proven advantageous to CF troops with no replacement programs, and advertising programs that do not exist.
> 
> Just ensure your info is current when making any momentous decisions; the system is not being supported nearly as well as it used to be, and some advice may be no longer valid.



Excellent post.

The education system available to members has been gutted, with no replacement in sight.

Do not join the CF expecting to finish your education as an enlisted man, the programs are not in place to support you.


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## Matty B. (24 May 2006)

Don't rule out university straight from high-school... RMC, ROTP or DEO programme. I got out of RMC and went for the DEO programme. I had no problems with summer jobs or government loans. I hardly owe anything... oh, yes... lots of university girls.


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## misfit (24 May 2006)

I'm joining as a Combat Engineer Full time. I have about a year of university left and I was hoping to finish it with the CF. I was told by the recruiter that I could do this by taking correspondence courses from RMC. Now I'm reading that this is probably not possible? The degree is important to me and I would like to finish it. I've got about 10 credits left. 

Will I be able to finish my degree as a full time combat engineer?


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## Journeyman (24 May 2006)

misfit said:
			
		

> Will I be able to finish my degree as a full time combat engineer?



I didn't mean to leave the impression that educational upgrading cannot be done - - merely that it is not remotely as well supported as it used to be. (and since my initial posting on the topic, I've gotten a few PMs providing further supporting horror stories).

Finishing off a degree is _completely_ up to you. Your training and operations are going to keep you busy. You're going to want "unwind time" like everyone else. Your chain of command may have higher priorities than to juggle schedules to accomodate your education. Your op tempo will likely rule out night school. And once you fall behind in a correspondence program, it's pretty much impossible to dig yourself out.

However.......if you are motivated, focused, and able to manage your time properly, there is absolutely no reason you would be unable to finish your degree. I know several of professors in RMC's Department of Continuing Studies and they are almost uniformly flexible, _where they can be_, regarding assignment submission dates, etc.  Some things have very little flex - - eg: marks are due in when marks are due in. 

I would suggest putting it on hold until you get all your initial training out of the way, and get settled into a Regiment, before you even consider carrying on with your education though. 
(it also helps if you are already familiar with drinking & sex, so that these don't become your _overarching_ priorities    )


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