# front  hand gard on C-6



## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

what is the reason for not putting them on a c-6 in the first place they can be fired from the shoulder if needed and there is no place to hold the thing without burning you hand


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

Have you ever fired it from the shoulder or seen someone fire from the shoulder live.  I didn't think so.


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## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

yes i have fired the c-6 from the shoulder many times by using the front bipod,so yes it can be fired from the shoulder


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

So your trying to tell me you fired live with the C6 in your shoulder by holding onto the front bi pod.
1.  That isn't how it showed be fired.
2.  You must be a big boy to fire it controlled because in the shoulder holding the bi pod is very awkward.
3.  I can't believe you weren't thrown off whatever range you were on as that is extremely unsafe.  When firing from an elevated position your number 2 gets on his hands and knees and you use his back.
4.  If it was suppossed to be fired in the shoulder it would have a hand guard no wouldn't it.
5.  I call bullshit.


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## Pearson (27 Feb 2006)

Fired from the hip in kneeling position in the AA role live. 
Seen it from the hip LIVE............once.
Never seen it LIVE from the shoulder. 
The hip maybe, but not the shoulder.

Key word being....LIVE


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

Live=exactly


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## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

yes firing it live from the shoulder it is dame near impossible to do that is why i say we need a front grip on it so we can be effective when it has to be done the U.S army has front grips why do we not have them.    P.S you can call bullshit if you like i have done it and know of others that have to


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

Show me pics of the US C6's (whatever they call them) with hand guards.
Firing live from the shoulder is wonky at best for bursts longer then 3 rounds with the C9 and you want to do it with a C6.
P.S.  Why don't you fill out your profile so we can see how experienced you are.


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## Haggis (27 Feb 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> Show me pics of the US C6's (whatever they call them) with hand guards.



M240 and M240B


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## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

my apolagys not han gards front hand grip


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## MOOXE (27 Feb 2006)

Wow people are pretty quick to pounce here... who cares about what a profile says...

I wouldnt be suprised if he did, or someone somewhere in the Canadian Military did. My 1st tour to Bosnia we had a "fun day" at the ranges. People were firing two 9mm at once, 1 handed rambo style C9.... Yeah yeah you can chant safety till the cows come home but we did it and lived. Not everything happens on a strictly controlled range!

Some have and more will say firing from the shoulder is wildly inaccurate which is true... but think a different way... The more ways you can make to fire a gun the more situations it can be used it. You never know when you may need to fire it from the shoulder, can you really say would never be an opportune moment for it? Hell, who knows for sure!

Its obvious why we dont have a front hand grip though, we just dont train that way.


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## blacktriangle (27 Feb 2006)

MOOXE said:
			
		

> People were firing two 9mm at once, 1 handed rambo style C9



 ;D


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## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

the front grip that the U.S army has is attached to the gas tub and is just like having a front grip on a c-7.  witch a lot of guys just us a rear hand grip off the c-9


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## reccecrewman (27 Feb 2006)

Sheesh, I haven't seen a thread this good since frankie future infanteer used to post here. Have fun with this guy mods!  ;D


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## George Wallace (27 Feb 2006)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Sheesh, I haven't seen a thread this good since frankie future infanteer used to post here. Have fun with this guy mods!  ;D


Quite right on that account.

C-6 from the shoulder.....giving us the impression that it is in the "unsupported" role.  I doubt it, unless the gunner was a House Ape.  Dangerous and a waste of ammo.  A forward handguard (notice spelling  ;D ) would only put your forearm in the way of the belt and cause Stoppages.  If you were a Lefty, then your forearm would be blocking the ejection port for the links and again cause Stoppages.  The C-6 is not designed to be fired like a rifle from the shoulder, unsupported.

John Wayne is my hero, but we all know that it was only "Hollywood" when he fired a .50 from the hip.   ;D


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## Blackhorse7 (27 Feb 2006)

Uuuuhhhh, no.

If you are firing a C6 from the shoulder, you are either a relative of Andre the Giant, or you are a tool.  I defy anyone to say that they could fire the C6 from the shoulder to ANY degree of accuracy for more than the first round.  "Fun Days" aside.


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

MOOXE the reason for filling out your profile voluntarily is to add credibility to your posts.


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## foerestedwarrior (27 Feb 2006)

I have seen it fired from the shoulder......I didn't say accurately, but I have seen it done. The guy who did it was HUGE, like 6', 250lbs huge. For all his strength,no accuracy whatsoever.


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## Franko (27 Feb 2006)

I call bullshit.

If it was a fun range, so you say, you'd have burned your hands after a few good bursts....even if you used the bipod, it's called radiant heat.

I won't even get into recoil and what happens there.

Where was you RSO? Smoking crack in the back of the safety vehicle?

Regards

BTW....just echoing the other mods...fill out your profile.


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## George Wallace (27 Feb 2006)

foerestedwarrior said:
			
		

> I have seen it fired from the shoulder......I didn't say accurately, but I have seen it done. The guy who did it was HUGE, like 6', 250lbs huge. For all his strength,no accuracy whatsoever.


No crap!  Look how heavy a C-6 is, unloaded.  Throw on a belt and what have you got........a nominee for the Darwin Awards.


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## HItorMiss (27 Feb 2006)

There was a guy in 1 RCR Dukes Coy who about 5 yrs ago did indeed fire the C6 from the shoulder in the kneeling, just to prove he could.

he would do on ex with blanks and get jacked for inaccuracy and improper use (rightly so I add) but on a Live MG shoot his WO to prove to him how useless it was allowed him to do in a controlled manner... With balloons as targets (we have all done balloon shoots I am sure) so he did, and he hit...not as much as when used properly mind you but his inital three round burst would have been enough IMO to put the heads down of any enemy he would have had contact with, thus buying him time to get to a good shooting position.

could he have had a sustained fire fight..nope radiant heat as has been pointed out, but that inital burst would work... and I submit to your IA on contact... Double tap, Dash ,Down, Sights, Observe, Communicate, crawl

I think that first burst follows all the above procedures if used correctly, so why don't we look at it that way? And ask why can't we have a handguard for the front of the C6 for just that eventuality.

*Edited for Spelling*


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## Scott (27 Feb 2006)

Where oh where is KevinB?


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## geo (27 Feb 2006)

sure.... you can do it BUT
why would you want to?

The C6, unlike the C9, is a belt fed weapon that has no provision for mags. That should tell you something about the designer's intent. Given the weight of the beastie, the C6, trying to control the movement of the barrel from the shoulder (unsupported) makes it entirely unsuitable for that kind of use.


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## Forgotten_Hero (27 Feb 2006)

> not as much as when used properly mind you but his inital three round burst would have been enough IMO to put the heads down of any enemy he would have had contact with, thus buying him time to get to a good shooting position.



Wouldnt the same be accomplished firing from the hip?


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## bigdog031 (27 Feb 2006)

affectivee taking what i have said and turning it! I never said firing burst after burst with a c-6 from the shoulder is aftective at all???it would be stupid!!!! i said it can be fired from the shoulder yes if you are a good sized man,i never once said burst after burst yes the heat would burn you and if you look i said that point that is why a front grip would works the U.S army has prov-in it! so if you are in a built up area witch is the way the three block war is heading,then having a front hand grip to fire off a fast burst well standing or going for cover to get the enemy's head down will you get a good firing postion,is not a thing that is impossible at all to me.Also when a c-6 gunner is on a patrol they do not have a full belt hanging off the gun,they should only have a good teaser belt of maybe 30 or 40 rounds and a full belt ready to go.So people can take it anyway they want but all i was stating is why not have a front hand grip?????


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## Michael OLeary (27 Feb 2006)

bigdog031, here is the text of your first post:



			
				bigdog031 said:
			
		

> what is the reason for not putting them on a c-6 in the first place they can be fired from the shoulder if needed and there is no place to hold the thing without burning you hand



You spoke just of "firing from the shoulder" and wanting to avoid "burning your hand" which inferred a general application and to the extent of it having that hazard from the hot barrel.

Perhaps if you took a little time to frame your posts more clearly they wouldn't turn into threads like this.  A little patience and you will also have time to explore sentence structure, grammar and spelling.

The hole you're standing in is one you dug through lack of clarity, a vital characterictic of machine gunning on the internet.


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## reccecrewman (27 Feb 2006)

Franko said:
			
		

> Where was you RSO? Smoking crack in the back of the safety vehicle?



 ;D Franko, that made my day............. It must be a wild west thing because I went looking for a few specific experts on the MG topic who wear the RCR capbadge when I got to work. After the initial chuckle, the response was they would never allow a soldier to attempt firing a C6 from the shoulder - live, for several safety reasons.  On that same note, the 2 Sergeants I spoke to also were adamant that none of their PPCLI counterparts would allow a Private/Corporal give it a go either.......... even on a "fun range".

*sniff sniff sniff............ I smell B.S*  ;D


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## George Wallace (27 Feb 2006)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> *sniff sniff sniff............ I smell B.S*  ;D


Why do I get this feeling that this is going to turn into a "Ya! Ya! Foootball....You Bet!  Me Love Foootball." thing soon?


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## HItorMiss (27 Feb 2006)

Only answer I can muster to that is, I was there saw it with my own eyes, IN fact there is Mcpl then Cpl who was this individuals #2 who can attest to what I said, but it's now an argument of no you can't...yes you can and thats not what I wanted when I posted...

what I wanted when I posted was to look at the fact that the drills state.. Double Tap (quick burst from the C6 as that is other then your pistol the only weapon you have) Dash (run like stink to your best identifiable firing position) Down ( get into cover of said firing position if it offers one of the 2 possible types of cover) Sights ( relocate target with C6) Observer (self evident make sure target is still there) Communicate ( GRIT for Weapons Det command if he is there) Crawl (ok everyone here knows this is a nice to have but rarely happens)

So going with that, if a handguard were indeed added to the C6 to facilitate the engagement of a target to get it's head down so you can move to your more advantageous firing position to fire the gun, why would that be such a horrid idea?


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## Michael OLeary (27 Feb 2006)

Anyone that is interested can review the weapon publication, they will find that there is a firing position for close quarter combat that can be employed from a slung carrying position without the awkwardness and inefficiency of trying to raise a belt-fed machine gun to the shoulder.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/b-gl-385/004/PT-001/B-GL-385-004-PT-001_E.pdf

See Lesson 10, page 98 of 278 (of the pdf file).


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## geo (27 Feb 2006)

If anyone tried to pull the "look ma no hands" thing .... I'd tear em a 2nd A!@$$
but that's just me...... and I got my trg from the R22R.... so we've covered the 3 Regiments  - and no one has owned up to reckless endangerment.
Good!


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## HItorMiss (27 Feb 2006)

I believe from looking at the pictures in that pdf it was indeed the position from which the example I mentioned was firing...my mistake and as it stands that also means that firing the C6 from the standing is indeed a viable option and as such a hand guard would facilitate that no? and of course the chances of firing the C6 in the CQB role have increased dramatically in recent years, it sounds to me like something that should be investigated by DLR


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## Scoobie Newbie (27 Feb 2006)

The question wasn't really whether you good fire it standing but could you fire it in the shoulder standing, or kneeling for that matter.  Safely and accurately.


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## Gunnerlove (28 Feb 2006)

The way I see it you should be able to fire the Carl G from the hip so they should put some extra handles and triggers on it as well.

Sarcasm level is high, very high


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Feb 2006)

Gunnerlove you need to add some of these as well : :


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## fourninerzero (28 Feb 2006)

Gunnerlove said:
			
		

> The way I see it you should be able to fire the Carl G from the hip so they should put some extra handles and triggers on it as well.
> 
> Sarcasm level is high, very high



I'm sure that is just as safe and effective as firing the C6 from the shoulder. Lets give it a try. Hey, and while we are at it, lets fire the 60mm mortar while balanced on the thigh in the standing position too. Its got that curved base plate... it should fit nicely on the meaty part of a troops thigh. :


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## Thompson_JM (28 Feb 2006)

what next... Slingshoting a Grenade?  :


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## a_majoor (28 Feb 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> what I wanted when I posted was to look at the fact that the drills state.. Double Tap (quick burst from the C6 as that is other then your pistol the only weapon you have) Dash (run like stink to your best identifiable firing position) Down ( get into cover of said firing position if it offers one of the 2 possible types of cover) Sights ( relocate target with C6) Observer (self evident make sure target is still there) Communicate ( GRIT for Weapons Det command if he is there) Crawl (ok everyone here knows this is a nice to have but rarely happens)
> 
> So going with that, if a handguard were indeed added to the C6 to facilitate the engagement of a target to get it's head down *so you can move to your more advantageous firing position to fire the gun, *why would that be such a horrid idea?



The GPMG should never be in such a position that the gun team has to do these things, they are with the 2I/C one or two tactical bounds behind the lead section (the only guys who will be doing double tap and running for cover under contact). Since this is the platoon commander's "big stick" it always needs to be protected on the move, then moved by a covered approach to a firing position. The slung "underhand" firing position may be an option, but not really a viable one for the reasons posted above. 

If you want a viable option, plant the gun (securely on the tripod, if you please) in a position you can cover the advancing platoon. On the Pl Comdr or 2I/C's order, one of the sections will take fire positions and cover while your team doubles up and resets the gun. Repeat as necessary.


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## Gayson (28 Feb 2006)

I'd like to point out the C6 is like 1.4 m long.

It would be a little akward holding it with the bipod at the shoulder even if it only weighed 10lb!


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## Haggis (28 Feb 2006)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> what next... Slingshoting a Grenade?  :



What???  They don't teach that any more???


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## geo (28 Feb 2006)

replaced by the M203....
(Where have you been?)
:warstory:


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## reccecrewman (28 Feb 2006)

Safe to say, this thread has run it's course (If it ever actually had one......)  :


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## Big Red (1 Mar 2006)

FourNinerZero said:
			
		

> Hey, and while we are at it, lets fire the 60mm mortar while balanced on the thigh in the standing position too. Its got that curved base plate... it should fit nicely on the meaty part of a troops thigh. :



I work with a South african who says in contacts they sometimes fired the 60mm while lying on thier back with their head pointed towards the enemy to avoid getting shot.


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## reccecrewman (1 Mar 2006)

Big Red said:
			
		

> I work with a South african who says in contacts they sometimes fired the 60mm while lying on thier back with their head pointed towards the enemy to avoid getting shot.



"I'll take things that suck for $1000 Alex"   ;D


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## geo (1 Mar 2006)

Hmmm.... lay tube horisontal, slip in bomb, cant tube up to.... whatever angle.... alowing bomb to slide down and hit firing pin.... control the angle of the tube as bomb comes soaring up and out........ oh yeah.... is anyone watching for the bomb strike?

Nah...... think I'll give this one a pass


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## Franko (1 Mar 2006)

Big Red said:
			
		

> I work with a South african who says in contacts they sometimes fired the 60mm while lying on thier back with their head pointed towards the enemy to avoid getting shot.



 :rofl:

Am I still in KAF? Is that poo pond I smell?

Regards


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## BernDawg (1 Mar 2006)

:warstory: Well.  I was told by a guy, back in the day, that he saw a guy lever fire the 60 mm from the shoulder!  :warstory:

Of course he didn't use any increments :


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## Michael OLeary (1 Mar 2006)

Even on Charge 0, that mortar is going to have a hell of a kick.  I have my doubts.  That's another "story" that would never have gotten past the range staff.


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## BernDawg (1 Mar 2006)

He said that the guy weighed about 300 lbs and shook like a bowl of jelly! ;D
I didn't believe him anyway.  :


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## a_majoor (2 Mar 2006)

The thread is wandering into "Military Urban Myths". The only reason stories like this get traction in this day and age is simple lack of experience. Anyone who has fired a GPMG or 60mm mortar for real knows absoulutly and without a doubt that doing the things described is stupid, dangerous, ineffective and only at the very outside edge of probability anyway.

Get on your chain of command to book time on the ranges to kill these myths!


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Mar 2006)

Thank you Arthur. If anyone has anything credible and substantiated to add, notify a Mod.


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