# lost military id card



## mondo (6 Sep 2005)

so, here goes a story of a friend of mine in the reserves. he lost his wallet, about 6 months ago with his miltary ID card in it. Now they want to replace his "lost" card, and he hasn't told anyone about his loss. Now they are going to charge him if he doesnt produce his lost/stolen card, in order to recieve his new one. what can he do?


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## Chimo (6 Sep 2005)

He/she needs to accept responsibility for his/her action of not reporting the loss of the ID Card. CFAO 26-3 Identification Cards states:

LOSS, THEFT OR DAMAGE29.      When a form CAFIB 20 or 22 is lost, stolen or damaged:
      a.     the loss, theft or damage shall be reported by the member within
               24 hours of the occurrence, to the base or unit security officer;
        
         b.     Annex A shall be completed in triplicate and distributed as
               indicated in the Annex;

        c.     the loss, theft or damage shall be investigated by the military
               police if the unit security officer deems such action is
               warranted;

        d.     if entitlement exists, a replacement I Card shall be issued; and

        e.     if the findings of the investigation indicate that the loss or
               damage was caused or contributed to by wilfulness or negligence-

               (1)   in the case of members of the CF, the CO shall consider
                       whether the loss or damage was the result of a willful or
                       negligent act on the part of the cardholder. If this is
                       deemed to be the case, the CO may authorize an
                       administrative deduction of $25.00 pursuant to QR&O,
                       Chapter 38 to offset the cost of a replacement I Card. This
                       does not preclude disciplinary action by the CO, and

               (2)   in the case of Allied Forces personnel and their dependants,
                       no disciplinary or administrative action will be taken.

Accepting personal responsibility is one of the key factors in learning to become an effective leader. Small pain now may save your "friend" a great deal of pain in the future. Encourage your "friend" to report it to the MPs or Unit Security Officer, complete with all the circumstances of the loss and his/her explanation of why he/she has failed to report it to date.

Good luck.


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## Kat Stevens (6 Sep 2005)

Take his lumps. It's his responsibility to report lost/stolen/destroyed DND ID.   If he reported his drivers license, bank and credit cards as missing, why not his mil ID?


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Sep 2005)

Going on 6 months without informing his chain of command he deserves what he gets. What he did was attributed to a major security violation and in this day and age PERSEC has become even more crucial. Personally I hope he gets the boot.


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## MikeM (6 Sep 2005)

Friend? Or do you mean YOU?


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Sep 2005)

Doesn't matter who it is, the fact is that the loss of a members ID card is a significant thing.  I try to explain that to my troops that you think you may be protecting yourself by not reporting it and hoping you'll find it, but in that 6 months of inactivity, someone may have had the chance to use that ID in a malicious manner.  

Had it been "red-flagged" as soon as it was lost, then Pte. Bloggings (who is really a terrorist with a stoled I card) wouldn't have access to NDHQ or other areas.  That's why we report things like that.. to protect ourselves and the people we work with.

Good luck.


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## Armymedic (7 Sep 2005)

And besides all the legal and security issues, people lose thier ID cards occasionally. A missing ID card may get you in a small bit of trouble, BUT

reporting it immediately is the responsible thing to do! Be an adult and admit your mistake.


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## BKells (8 Sep 2005)

If I read that, the worst that'll happen is a 25$ fine. I've had more for less.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Sep 2005)

Well you read it wrong. He can have a deduction of $25.00 to pay for a new card. This does not include what he could be fined if he's charged. Not to mention the record upon conviction.


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## Infanteer (8 Sep 2005)

...like a 129 for not reporting it immediately.


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## S McKee (8 Sep 2005)

Although it is chargeable, whether or not he does the hatless dance depends on how charge happy his CO is. He'll probably have to fill out an affidavit stating that he lost his card, and he'll have to do some fancy talking to explain why it took him 6 months to report it. It has been my experience that we don't take this thing too seriously.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Sep 2005)

Jumper said:
			
		

> It has been my experience that we don't take this thing too seriously.


 -or-
Given the times we live in, maybe his CO will decide it's about time someone did.


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## Chimo (8 Sep 2005)

I can't believe that he hasn't used his ID Card in six months +.


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## Navalsnpr (8 Sep 2005)

This person should be doing the hat-less dance and the base he gained access to should have their SOP's reviewed and updated.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!


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## FormerHorseGuard (8 Sep 2005)

had he or she reported it within 24 to 48  hours of it happening it would not be a big deal. I lost mine, i got ripped a new one by the MasterSeaman in the office,  The Admin Officer laughed at me and told me better not do it again. The MP who had reissue me a new ID card was not very happy i lost it all within 3 days of getting it.  
I would be more worried that  someone has turned it in and it is waiting at the unit to be given back and the secruity officer is waiting to see how it takes the person to fess up. 
Turn your lost kit report in now and deal with the cost and possible charges before you get too deep


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## Blakey (8 Sep 2005)

> Had it been "red-flagged" as soon as it was lost, then Pte. Bloggings (who is really a terrorist with a stoled I card) wouldn't have access to NDHQ or other areas.


An ID Card is not a pass, its just that, an "Identification Card", I could be wrong but....I'm sure that one must have a pass to gain access to building such as this? A certain large glass building in Winnipeg, you have to have a pass to enter.


> and the base he gained access to should have their SOP's reviewed and updated.


I'm going to take a guess that this "friend" is in the militia, and parades at an armoury. I haven't been to too many armouries that require you to show your ID to get in, but I see your point, even if there are a some number of military instillation's that have an "Open Base" policy....


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## Navalsnpr (8 Sep 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> I'm going to take a guess that this "friend" is in the militia, and parades at an armoury. I haven't been to too many armouries that require you to show your ID to get in, but I see your point, even if there are a some number of military instillation's that have an "Open Base" policy....


I've actually seen an Armoury that required ID's to be shown to gain access to the building a couple of years ago. Can't comment on it now as I've not been there for a year.

IMHO, no Military properties should have a "Open Base" policy. 100% ID checks should be mandatory from NDHQ to CFS Alert, including all Armouries!!!


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## Blakey (8 Sep 2005)

> IMHO, no Military properties should have a "Open Base" policy. 100% ID checks should be mandatory from NDHQ to CFS Alert, including all Armouries!!!


I agree totally, unfortunately though, I believe that goes part in parcel with the same old attitude as _"It will never happen here!"_ (Terrorist attacks in Canada)...


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## Neill McKay (9 Sep 2005)

Blakey said:
			
		

> I agree totally, unfortunately though, I believe that goes part in parcel with the same old attitude as _"It will never happen here!"_ (Terrorist attacks in Canada)...



It's not so much that "it will never happen here" as the odds of it happening in most places are so small that it's just not worth the staff time and aggravation of checking everyone's ID.  The Halifax dockyard, home to over half of the ships in the navy and quite a bit of supporting infrastructure, requires a different level of security from a small-town armoury which contains nothing of strategic value and is home to a unit all of whose members know one another.


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## Chimo (9 Sep 2005)

It seems to me I have to show my ID Card any time I need to process a claim or any number of admin/med actions. Perhaps the Reserves move in different circles.   

I work in the US and you can't buy a jug of milk at the PX without an ID Card, let alone access the Base. Seems they have a different priority of security. As far as Armouries not being a strategic target I would agree but they probably would make a very good symbolic target.


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## Lost_Warrior (9 Sep 2005)

> The Halifax dockyard, home to over half of the ships in the navy and quite a bit of supporting infrastructure, requires a different level of security from a small-town armoury which contains nothing of strategic value and is home to a unit all of whose members know one another.



Well, to be fair, I have been to ValCartier a lot.  I can't count the number of times the guy at the gate waived me by because I was in uniform.    Valcartier is home to the 3 R22R and the 12 RBC.   

All some terrorist &^$%# has to do is get his hands on a fake CADPAT uniform and beret and drive his way into the base, then it's open season on whatever target he choses is worthy.

The same for Meaford when I was there.   Driving in and out of the base in uniform was a breeze.  

The "no ID check" can not be blamed only on milita units....


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## Lost_Warrior (9 Sep 2005)

> I work in the US and you can't buy a jug of milk at the PX without an ID Card, let alone access the Base.



Thats true.  Everytime we left/entered the base at Camp Blanding, our CDN Military ID was required.  They also had an actual soldier with a rifle at the gate.  Not some old guy with a flashlight....*cough* Valcartier *cough*


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## Donut (10 Sep 2005)

On a SUE in the UK in 2001 ( I think) in Folkestone, we routinely had certain Engineers, having had a few too many, brought home on the pointy end of an SA80, with a grinning Gurkha on the other end.  We'd vouch for him, the Gurkha would smile, and disappear back to his guardhouse.  I worked with some of their medics later in the trip, and apparently their boys thought the drunk Canadians were the high light of otherwise very boring stags at the garrison gate.

We take security far to leniently around DND facilities.

The OP's "Friend" should suck it up and report it ASAP, and I really would like to see a charge or two come out of it, pour encourager les autres.

All it took to get into NDHQ last time I was there was an I Card and a leave pass.  I needed the stamp for my LTA.  Maybe I'll drop by next week, see what it takes to get in these days.  

Now who do I know at the puzzle palace....

DF


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## S McKee (10 Sep 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Well, to be fair, I have been to ValCartier a lot.   I can't count the number of times the guy at the gate waived me by because I was in uniform.      Valcartier is home to the 3 R22R and the 12 RBC.
> 
> All some terrorist &^$%# has to do is get his hands on a fake CADPAT uniform and beret and drive his way into the base, then it's open season on whatever target he choses is worthy.
> 
> ...



Edmonton has a 100% ID check during silent hours only, (it's a money issue) that's just a wave by from some poor old commissionaire you could have Mickey Mouses' picture on your ID card and get through. Until silent hours time gates are unmanned. In times during heightened security a 100% check is done, however that means stopping 5000 or so troops on their way to morning PT every day and I don't need to tell you what complaints come out of that, the traffic etc. The fact of the matter is (as someone stated previously) the I card is not a pass.  If you want to ensure that everyone getting on the base is allowed there, you would have a member from each unit at the gate with a nominal role who could personally vouch for each member entering the facility. I personally think that in addition to the I card, DND should invest in some sort of pass scanning technology for base access with vehicle and personal/unit information on it.


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## FormerHorseGuard (11 Sep 2005)

base toronto had no full time guards on it 
only after 6 pm i think.
one gate would be locked up and the other gate would a gaurd in it. there were gates off the pmqs were open till midnight i think.
off duty  hours  most times you waved at the guy and he turned the light from red to green.
it should be improved but why bother it works for now
is the old saying


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## Lost_Warrior (12 Sep 2005)

> it should be improved but why bother it works for now
> is the old saying



But that's just it.   It *DOESN'T * work.   You can say some 60 year commissionaire sitting behind a gate letting any tom, d1ck and Harry in "works"...  :


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## MikeM (12 Sep 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Thats true.   Everytime we left/entered the base at Camp Blanding, our CDN Military ID was required.   They also had an actual soldier with a rifle at the gate.   Not some old guy with a flashlight....*cough* Valcartier *cough*



Same deal @ Fort Knox... they take things seriously there. 

As we should be doing.


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## Lost_Warrior (12 Sep 2005)

> Same deal @ Fort Knox... they take things seriously there.
> 
> As we should be doing.



I was in NYC a couple of weeks ago.  It was late and I wanted to get a quick bite to eat with my girlfriend, so we went into Taco Bell, and what did I see?  A security guard standing there with a BP vext and a pistol straped to his side.     It had me wondering... This guy was better armed than the people who stand guard at our countries military bases....


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## Danjanou (12 Sep 2005)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> I was in NYC a couple of weeks ago.   It was late and I wanted to get a quick bite to eat with my girlfriend, so we went into Taco Bell, and what did I see?   A security guard standing there with a BP vext and a pistol straped to his side.        It had me wondering... This guy was better armed than the people who stand guard at our countries military bases....



Man you don't want to know what the security guards at fast food joints in Latin America carry, same as the banks down there and it's enough to make Kev B weep with envy.

Amazing the different standards. When I went to West Germany the gates at CBE Baden Soellingen had real guards with real weapons who stopped and scrutinized everyone including young troopies staggering back from a night on the town in Hugelshiem or Baden Baden with too much good German beer imbibed. Bit of a culture shock after being used to the Commissionaire wave through.


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## CdnArtyWife (12 Sep 2005)

That is if you even get a commissionaire waive through! I have yet to lay eyes on a commissionaire here in Gagetown. I have been stopped by the MPs on a random day of 100% ID checks....I always have my Military Family ID with me...which has hubby's svc # and signature on it. But mostly everyone here knows that the only big security checks here is during the Base Auxillary Security Force ex in September of every year... I have actually heard members complain that they had to go home to get thier id when they were just going to play squash...

As far as I am concerned, there should be 100% security checks at all times. And members and families should not get complaicent and not carry the proper identification.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Lost_Warrior (13 Sep 2005)

> Man you don't want to know what the security guards at fast food joints in Latin America carry



Thats what happens when you have cartels and criminals armed better than some NATO countries...


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## FormerHorseGuard (13 Sep 2005)

i know it does not, you know it does not work but till the system realizes it does not work, it works for them

toronto had a public bus that  ran thru the base, ring bell and get off at any  stop every day monday  to friday
it was number shepard west 84 a or 84 b,  ran every  30 minutes I thinkj

canadians do not know what  secuirty is , because they have never needed. so they  get by  with the bare minimum


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## Neill McKay (13 Sep 2005)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> As far as I am concerned, there should be 100% security checks at all times. And members and families should not get complaicent and not carry the proper identification.



Everyone should carry proper identification any time they're on any base, but I can't see any good coming from 100% checks at Gagetown.  Anyone could just walk 100 feet down the road and enter the base on foot.  How do you secure endless miles of forest?


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## AmmoTech90 (13 Sep 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> How do you secure endless miles of forest?



This and this...

JK about the Claymore...at least around Gagetown...


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## CdnArtyWife (13 Sep 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Everyone should carry proper identification any time they're on any base, but I can't see any good coming from 100% checks at Gagetown.   Anyone could just walk 100 feet down the road and enter the base on foot.   How do you secure endless miles of forest?



good point...and that reminds me of something my mom always used to say "locks are for honest people, if someone wants to break in bad enough, they will"

but at least more checks, more often will maybe deter the _average_ trouble maker...and possibly make the general public more aware of the possibility of threat...or am I just being naive? 
JMHO


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## Neill McKay (13 Sep 2005)

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> good point...and that reminds me of something my mom always used to say "locks are for honest people, if someone wants to break in bad enough, they will"
> 
> but at least more checks, more often will maybe deter the _average_ trouble maker...and possibly make the general public more aware of the possibility of threat...or am I just being naive?



It would certainly make the public more aware (and cause a bit of grumbling among them as the traffic backs up into Oromocto), but I would think some kind of threat assessment should me made before deciding on security measures.  I'm not an expert in security, but I am familiar with risk assessment as used in design (of structures, etc.).  The idea is to consider the likelihood of an "incident", and the severity of the "incident" should it happen.  In civil engineering this means we take more care to avoid more serious failures, and are less concerned about less serious failures.  As an example, hospitals are designed to a higher standard of resistance to earthquakes than office buildings because the consequences of a hospital being severely damaged in an earthquake are more serious than those of an office building being damaged (not least because the earthquake is likely to cause the hospital to get a lot of business!).

So applying the same thinking to military base security, the likelihood of hard-core terrorists striking any given CF installation would seem to be fairly small, but if they should be attacked, some installations would result in more trouble for the Forces than others.  It's well known that the Halifax dockyard contains more than half of the navy's pointy-end in a fairly small space, and security at the dockyard is correspondingly tight (heavy gates, fences, etc., all visible to anyone who happens by on the street).  CFB Gagetown, on the other hand, doesn't seem quite so juicy, being spread out over a huge area, so the severity of an "incident" would probably be somewhat less than the Dockyard and the same level of security might not be appropriate there.

As others have pointed out, there is a symbolic value to attacking any military target, so that would probably skew the issue somewhat.  How much is a question I'll leave to wiser minds than mine.


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