# Re:  shrill, smug anti Americanism



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob Ayres" <ayrzee_07@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:04:31 -0500*
Can't say as I disagree with anything Ian, John or you have said in the 
last posts. I have been getting uncomfortable feelings with regard to 
some of the 'in your face' style commercials and actually view them as 
being a bit un-Canadian if anything.
And your right about what is likely on the cutting room floor Ian. You 
could likely go into any city or small town in Canada and find people 
just as ignorant if you looked for long enough  and asked the right 
questions. I just couldn't resist using that particular example as it 
was funny at the time and stuck with me.
Glad to bury this particular string under the heading "not goin' there 
again"
RA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Joan O. Arc
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:33 AM
  Subject: Re: shrill, smug anti Americanism
  Rob,
  Thanks for your comments. Ian and John have already made most of the 
points
  I could make in reply to yours see their later posts, but I do have 
a few
  quick observations:
  1 You're absolutely right. Americans do generally know less than 
nothing
  about Canada, and ignorance and contempt, unfortunately, cut across 
the 49th
  parallel in both directions. However, whether we proud Canadians like 
it or
  not, the USA is the pre-eminent political, economic, cultural, 
military,
  you-name-it power in the world today. People in countries such as 
Mexico,
  Poland, Malaysia, Nigeria, etc. probably all, on average, know more 
about
  the US than Americans know about their home countries. And just 
because
  Canada happens to share a border with the US doesn't make us immune to 
this
  "knowledge gap" phenomenon. The US is simply a special case: It 
produces a
  large large, large! percentage of the cultural product the world 
consumes
  and so people tend to get a crash course in American culture, whether 
they
  want one or not.
  2 I agree that Canadians should be less hesitant to wave the flag 
than they
  sometimes are. In fact, I'm all for lots of flag-waving on both sides 
of the
  border. People who are proud of their countries generally make better
  citizens, better workers, better soldiers, etc. than people who 
aren't. But
  I was always taught to believe that you don't raise yourself up by 
tearing
  the other guy down. If Canadians want to or are able to engage in
  flag-waving because of our national accomplishments or our ability to
  realize our national ideals or simply because they love their country,
  that's great. But to wave the flag "because the Americans do it" or to 
show
  that "we're not American" devalues both our flag and those who are 
doing the
  waving. At least in my opinion. Other points of view are, of course, 
both
  possible and reasonable.
  3 I also think, as John, Ian and Dave have already pointed out, that 
it is
  in kind of poor taste to engage in flag-waving as a way of "rejoicing" 
in or
  "poking fun" at another country's misfortunes, especially when those
  misfortunes take the form of a string of fatal accidents. However, I 
also am
  pretty sure that Greg was just being funny when he posted his very
  attractive - can I borrow it? : flag sign-off and that is why I've 
already
  said I'm sorry I came down so hard on him. Why don't I grow a sense 
of
  humour or something?!?!
  I'm also sorry, BTW, to have sent us off into a topic that seems to be
  becoming a bit of a hornets' nest and that is irrelevant to the list's
  theme, to boot.
  Cap badges anyone?
  Joan
  PS - I think it's hilarious and really cute that your kids are all 
excited
  about what you're doing this summer because of the recruiting ads. 
Best of
  luck with the course.
  ----Original Message Follows----
  From: "Rob Ayres" 
  Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  To: 
  Subject: Re: shrill, smug anti Americanism
  Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:55:54 -0500
  Hi Joan,
  I know you addressed your comments to Greg about his Proudly Canadian
  sign-off and I'm glad you apologised but I have to jump in here for 
just a
  sec.
  You talk about Canadians being ignorant of the states and I find it 
hard to
  believe that you are serious! Have you never seen news captions of 
Americans
  being quizzed on Canada? Talk about ignorant! I have even seen 
Canadian
  comedians go to the states and ask American statesmen what they 
thought of
  Canadas new Ice Parliament buildings for which they did up a great
  miniature and photographed it and they thought the idea was "Great!
  Congratulations, it's a really innovative concept."
  Most Canadians like the benefits of living next to the Americans and 
take
  the bad with the good. But, you can't deny people their right to poke 
fun at
  the big guy cause he ain't listening and doesn't care what we say 
anyway!
  Most of what I hear is harmless but being ready to jump on someone for 
a
  proudly Canadian banner? Gimme a break! Would you feel that way about 
me
  because you drove by my home and I have a Canadian flag flying from 
the
  highest peak of my house?
  The truth is the average American has no idea what's going on here and 
could
  care less about Canada. Makes no difference to me to be honest but 
don't
  ridicule Canadians for their "ignorance" because, from my own 
experiences,
  just the opposite is generally true.
  I have American friends as do many on this list and they would back me 
up
  here, I'm sure, and not feel bad about it. But I have a definite 
problem
  with your core reaction to the banner. For every flag waving Canadian 
not
  enough of them there are umpteen more Americans giving theirs the 
wave,
  even when they live here in Canada.
  How Greg's banner could bring these feelings forward is your problem.
  Wave it Greg, wave it!
  Rob A
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Joan O. Arc
     To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
     Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 12:56 AM
     Subject: Re: US Training Accident
     Greg,
     No sweat. I was just being a pill, I'm afraid. Your "proudly 
Canadian"
     which I also am sign-off just reminded me a bit of the kind of 
shrill,
     smug anti-Americanism that seems to pop up in certain segments of
  Canadian
     "culture" all too often.
     It pisses me off mostly because it is nearly always based on 
*total*
     ignorance of the U.S.A. and ultimately winds up making the 
Canadians who
     indulge in it look even more rube-like than those they seek to 
mock.
     Happily, because people in the CF *do* have so much contact with 
their
     counterparts south of the border - as you point out - this kind of 
stuff
     seems rarely to go on in military circles to my knowledge, 
anyway, and
  I'm
     pretty sure you weren't guilty of it, either.
     I should have just kept my mouth fingers? shut, or saved it for a 
nasty
     e-mail to the CBC, or something.
     My apologies for venting in your direction unfairly,
     Joan
    

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: "Joan O. Arc" 
     To: 
     Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:56 PM
     Subject: Re: US Training Accident
      > Greg,
      >
      > Not to go all "heavy" on you, or anything, but smugness in the 
face of
     the
      > kind of misfortune the American forces seem to have been 
experiencing
  of
      > late just isn't attractive, at least in my not so humble 
opinion.
  But
     you
      > *are* right, all the same - What a run of luck! What gives, I 
wonder?
      >
      > - Joan




Can't say as I disagree with anything 
Ian, John or
you have said in the last posts.I have been getting uncomfortable 
feelings
with regard to some of the 'in your face' style commercials and actually 
view
them as being a bit un-Canadian if anything. 
And your right about what is likely on the 
cutting room
floor Ian. You couldlikely go into any city or small town in 
Canada and
find people just as ignorant if you looked for long enough and 
asked the
right questions. I just couldn't resist using that particular example as 
it was
funny at the time and stuck with me. 
Glad to bury this particular string under the 
heading "not
goin' there again"
RA
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Joan O.
  Arc 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 
2:33
  AM
  Subject: Re: shrill, smug anti
  Americanism
  Rob,Thanks for your comments. Ian and John have 
already
  made most of the pointsI could make in reply to yours see their 
later
  posts, but I do have a fewquick observations:1 You're 
absolutely
  right. Americans do generally know less than nothingabout Canada, 
and
  ignorance and contempt, unfortunately, cut across the 49thparallel 
in both
  directions. However, whether we proud Canadians like it ornot, the 
USA is
  the pre-eminent political, economic, cultural, 
military,you-name-it power
  in the world today. People in countries such as Mexico,Poland, 
Malaysia,
  Nigeria, etc. probably all, on average, know more aboutthe US than 
  Americans know about their home countries. And just becauseCanada 
happens
  to share a border with the US doesn't make us immune to 
this"knowledge
  gap" phenomenon. The US is simply a special case: It produces 
alarge
  large, large! percentage of the cultural product the world 
consumesand
  so people tend to get a crash course in American culture, whether 
theywant
  one or not.2 I agree that Canadians should be less hesitant 
to wave
  the flag than theysometimes are. In fact, I'm all for lots of 
flag-waving
  on both sides of theborder. People who are proud of their 
countries
  generally make bettercitizens, better workers, better soldiers, 
etc. than
  people who aren't. ButI was always taught to believe that you 
don't raise
  yourself up by tearingthe other guy down. If Canadians want to or 
are able
  to engage inflag-waving because of our national accomplishments or 
our
  ability torealize our national ideals or simply because they love 
their
  country,that's great. But to wave the flag "because the Americans 
do it"
  or to showthat "we're not American" devalues both our flag and 
those who
  are doing thewaving. At least in my opinion. Other points of view 
are, of
  course, bothpossible and reasonable.3 I also think, as 
John, Ian
  and Dave have already pointed out, that it isin kind of poor taste 
to
  engage in flag-waving as a way of "rejoicing" in or"poking fun" at 
another
  country's misfortunes, especially when thosemisfortunes take the 
form of a
  string of fatal accidents. However, I also ampretty sure that Greg 
was
  just being funny when he posted his veryattractive - can I borrow 
it? :
  flag sign-off and that is why I've alreadysaid I'm sorry I came 
down so
  hard on him. Why don't I grow a sense ofhumour or
  something?!?!I'm also sorry, BTW, to have sent us off into a 
topic
  that seems to bebecoming a bit of a hornets' nest and that is 
irrelevant
  to the list'stheme, to boot.Cap badges
  anyone?JoanPS - I think it's hilarious and really 
cute that
  your kids are all excitedabout what you're doing this summer 
because of
  the recruiting ads. Best ofluck with the 
course.----Original
  Message Follows----From: "Rob Ayres" ltayrzee_07@hotmail.comgtRe
ply-To:
  army-list@CdnArmy.caTo: 
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtSubj
ect:
  Re: shrill, smug anti AmericanismDate: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:55:54
  -0500Hi Joan,I know you addressed your comments to Greg 
about his
  Proudly Canadiansign-off and I'm glad you apologised but I have to 
jump in
  here for just asec.You talk about Canadians being ignorant of 
the
  states and I find it hard tobelieve that you are serious! Have you 
never
  seen news captions of Americansbeing quizzed on Canada? Talk about 
  ignorant! I have even seen Canadiancomedians go to the states and 
ask
  American statesmen what they thought ofCanadas new Ice Parliament
  buildings for which they did up a greatminiature and photographed 
it and
  they thought the idea was "Great!Congratulations, it's a really 
innovative
  concept."Most Canadians like the benefits of living next to the 
Americans
  and takethe bad with the good. But, you can't deny people their 
right to
  poke fun atthe big guy cause he ain't listening and doesn't care 
what we
  say anyway!Most of what I hear is harmless but being ready to jump 
on
  someone for aproudly Canadian banner? Gimme a break! Would you 
feel that
  way about mebecause you drove by my home and I have a Canadian 
flag flying
  from thehighest peak of my house?The truth is the average 
American has
  no idea what's going on here and couldcare less about Canada. 
Makes no
  difference to me to be honest but don'tridicule Canadians for 
their
  "ignorance" because, from my own experiences,just the opposite is
  generally true.I have American friends as do many on this list and 
they
  would back me uphere, I'm sure, and not feel bad about it. But I 
have a
  definite problemwith your core reaction to the banner. For every 
flag
  waving Canadian notenough of them there are umpteen more 
Americans
  giving theirs the wave,even when they live here in Canada.How 
Greg's
  banner could bring these feelings forward is your problem.Wave 
it
  Greg, wave it!Rob A ----- Original Message 
  ----- From: Joan O. Arc To: army-list@CdnArmy.can
bsp
  Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: Re: 
US
  Training Accident Greg, No 
sweat.
  I was just being a pill, I'm afraid. Your "proudly 
Canadian"
  which I also am sign-off just reminded me a bit of the kind of
  shrill, smug anti-Americanism that seems to pop up in 
certain
  segments ofCanadian "culture" all too
  often. It pisses me off mostly because it is 
nearly always
  based on *total* ignorance of the U.S.A. and 
ultimately winds
  up making the Canadians who indulge in it look even 
more
  rube-like than those they seek to mock. Happily, 
because
  people in the CF *do* have so much contact with their
  counterparts south of the border - as you point out - this kind of
  stuff seems rarely to go on in military circles to my 
  knowledge, anyway, andI'm pretty sure you weren't 
guilty
  of it, either. I should have just kept my mouth 
fingers?
  shut, or saved it for a nasty e-mail to the CBC, or
  something. My apologies for venting in your 
direction
  unfairly, Joan 

 ----- Original Message 
-----
  From: "Joan O. Arc" ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgt
  To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtnbs
p
  Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:56 PM Subject: Re: US 
Training
  Accident gt 
Greg,
  gt gt Not to go all "heavy" on you, or 
anything, but
  smugness in the face of the gt 
kind of
  misfortune the American forces seem to have been
  experiencingof gt late just isn't 
attractive, at
  least in my not so humble opinion.But
  you gt *are* right, all the same - What a run 
of luck!
  What gives, I wonder? 
gt gt -
  Joan


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