# Surrey: Canadian military says no to 'Sikh cadet corps'



## JorgSlice

Reproduced under the _Fair Dealings Provision_ of the _Copyright Act_. Highlights = mine.



> SURREY: Canadian military says no to 'Sikh Cadet Corps'
> 
> *By Cheryl Chan and Larissa Cahute
> VancouverDesi.com*
> 
> It was supposed to be a historic moment, the culmination of two years of work and the start of an exciting program for about 60 Surrey kids.
> 
> But Canada’s first ever Sikh cadet corps has already ran into some opposition — over its name.
> 
> “We were told there was a problem with the naming,” said Pargat Singh Bhurji, director of the Friends of the Sikh Cadet Corps Society. “There was a hesitation over the word ‘Sikh.’ ”
> 
> The opposition to the name — the 3300 British Columbian Royal Army Cadet (Surrey Sikhs) — was raised in a Sept. 13 meeting between the Sikh cadet corps organizers and representatives from the Canadian cadet program.
> 
> According to Kimberley Caron, a Department of National Defence spokeswoman for Cadet organizations, officials believe the use of the word “Sikh” gives the wrong idea.
> 
> “The issue is it’s got to be all inclusive,” she said, adding the name insinuates non-Sikh youth can’t join. “You want to make sure that the program is all inclusive for all Canadian youth between the ages of 12 and 18,” she said. “We want Sikh youth to join; we want non-Sikh youth to join … everybody.”
> 
> But according to organizers in Surrey, they’d been in discussions with the military for about a year and no one had objected to the new unit’s name and they had received the green light each step of the way.
> 
> The society has used the name Friends of the Sikh Cadet Corps Society to open a bank account, send out official letters and recruit members. Uniforms and shoes and special turbans have already been ordered.
> 
> An official launch was scheduled for Sept. 19 at the Sikh Academy in Surrey.
> 
> “Then in a matter of weeks’ time, there is a problem … I think it’s ridiculous,” said Bhurji. “It was like the carpet was pulled out underneath our feet.”
> 
> But Caron said “it’s only coming to light now because they (the unit) were ready to start parading.”
> 
> The Canadian Forces is responsible for making sure the necessary components are present in a cadet corps, like the right leadership, sponsorship, community support and name.
> 
> “In this case the Canadian Forces is not satisfied that all the proponents are there,” she said. “The word Sikh has not been approved … and we have other concerns in making sure the right leadership and support for the corps (is there).
> 
> *“You would want to make sure the name was actually approved prior to paying and setting all of that up.”*
> 
> Bhurji notes the program has been open and pluralistic. Some regiments have names with cultural connotations such as the Canadian Scottish Regiment or Irish Regiment.
> 
> On Sept. 16, organizers were told the Department of National Defence will be involved in the decision on the name. But two weeks later, the issue still hasn’t been resolved, leaving some families feeling misled and frustrated.
> 
> Avtar Gill said his 11-year-old son Mehtab had been counting down the day until the launch.
> 
> “He was very excited. He’s asking me every day, ‘When are we starting?’” said the Surrey dad.
> 
> Gill had enrolled Mehtab in a Delta cadet corps two years ago, but with no other Sikhs or East Indians or Asians in the group, Mehtab never felt like he fit in. After two sessions, he decided to quit.
> 
> Gill is baffled over the holdup.
> 
> “I don’t understand why this is an issue,” he said. “The word ‘Sikh’ means ‘learner.’ I don’t see why anyone would have an issue with that name.”
> 
> Sikhs come from a long military lineage. In the First World War, more than 65,000 Sikh soldiers fought for the British, and another 300,000 Sikhs served in Second World War.
> Caron said they’ve offered the group a number of alternative names that they believe still celebrate Sikh heritage, like naming it after a prominent Sikh leader, veteran or community member.
> 
> But without “Sikh” in the name, the cadet corps would not have drawn as much interest, said Bhurji, a pediatrician at B.C. Children’s Hospital. He stressed that while the kids who signed up may be Sikhs, they are also Canadians.
> 
> “These are kids brought up here who have Canadian values and want to serve their country,” he said, estimating 10 to 15 per cent of the members will serve in the Canadians’ army, navy and air force as adults.
> 
> Caron said “it’s sad to see it’s sort of taken this turn,” because the group is “great for community pride with Sikh traditions with multiculturalism and pluralism in Canada.”
> 
> Sikh cadet corps founder Harbinder Singh Sewak, publisher of the South Asian Post, said he is optimistic the issue will be resolved.
> 
> “We are working very hard to get some kind of resolution to this. The community is anxious to get this going.”



Original can be seen here: http://vancouverdesi.com/lifestyle/canadian-military-says-no-to-sikh-cadets/

Interesting developments. When I left Surrey not too long ago, the idea is that the Sikh temple on Scott Road is going to be host to this unit so they'd have a rent-free facility. They already had over 100 people sign up BEFORE it had even been approved. As you see in the article, they ordered uniforms already in anticipation that they'd be given the green light. 

What is also concerning is their understanding of the Cadets Canada, it's purpose, regulations, etc. and their understanding of the same of the Canadian Forces. We can see this from some of the comments:



> They need to ban the Canadian Scottish Regiment post-haste old boy!





> wow i had no idea canada was thisracist, its reminding me more & more like the biggest terrorists on the planet the usa, sikhshave died for this country but continued to get disrespected. wow oh cannda



or the one that doesn't necessarily Grind My Gears the most (see directly above), but is of most concern:



> Highlander units are by no means restricted to enrollment by only Scottish youth, nor are Irish or Welsh units restricted in the same manner. The same applies to units taking their name from Aboriginal heritage (eg. 339 G89 Iroquois Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps) and certainly to the Saskatchewan unit that takes its name from the Punjab city of Rawalpindi (118 Rawalpindi Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Corps, Prince Albert SK, S6V8A4).
> The XXX Cadet Corps (Surrey Sikh) is open to all Canadian youth to enlist. It is our mission that cadets in our unit learn the bedrock Sikh values of being a “Saint-Soldier” or of standing up for those who are defenceless in the face of tyranny.



"It is our mission that cadets in our unit learn the bedrock Sikh values of being a "Saint-Soldier" ..."

Sorry, but remind me again where in any of the DAOD's or QR(Cadets) or CATO's that state that religious teachings are permitted in the organization? Iff they truly say it is all-inclusive, if a white Mormon or a Muslim, or a Spanish Canadian Catholic were to join, how would they "accommodate to all races/religions/backgrounds? Would then then have to teach from the Qu'Ran and the Bible as well?

------------

The man's kid drops out after 2 nights, over 6 years starting out as a recruit and going on to being a Cadet RSM, for me it took about a month to get comfortable but on average for every new recruit it was about 2-3 months before they started feeling to fit in an comfortable and being a little more social and interactive. 

------------

...and the piece saying "...65 000 Sikhs fought for the British in the First World War ..." and etc, all I can say is: We're not the British are we? No. Moot point.

Comments on this matter are welcome, falling under standard policy etc.


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## charlesm

Is this really and different than this cadet corp in Duncan

2924 (Khowutzun) “LG’s Own” Royal Canadian
Army Cadets - Aboriginal Cadet Corp
Facts:
• Outdoor adventure
• Once a week meeting
• Earn school credits
• Learn educational and fun
activities
• Potential to travel abroad
• Learn new life skills
• Boost self esteem
• Learn leadership skills
• Citizenship training
• All training meets safety
requirements
• Get paid training
• Lots of FUN
Myths:
• It’s boot camp
• It’s authoritative training
• You have to join the
Army/Military
• It is all about being disciplined
• It is just hard work
Royal Canadian Army Cadets:
Royal Canadian Army Cadets is a national co-educational
youth organization sponsored in partnership by the Canadian
Forces and the civilian Army Cadet League of Canada. Youth
between 12-18 years build skills and self esteem using hands on
teaching techniques. The skills youth gain are then put into practice on adventure based outings,
where youth are also able to build friendships, demonstrate their leadership skills AND HAVE
FUN.
Army Cadets are NOT members of the Canadian Forces.
When: Wednesdays 6:30pm-9pm
Where: Cowichan Tribes Siem Lelum Gym – 5574 River Road Duncan
Who: All Aboriginal Youth between 12-18 years
Cost: NO COST AND ONGOING AND CONTINUOUS REGISTRATION
This is the ONLY all Aboriginal Army Cadet Corp in British Columbia.
For More Information Please Contact:
Cherie White or Toni Williams
Cowichan Tribes
Cher: 250 746-0607
Toni: 250-701-0682
Fax: 250 715-1023
Cher’s Email - Cherie.White@cowichantribes.com
Toni’s Email: Toni.Williams@cowichantribes.com


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## fraserdw

Wow, DND compromised their standards at least once.  That will probably bite back and there will be a Sikh Corps, then Islam Corps, then a left handed dog lovers Corps and onward creating greater and greater division and finally bringing to an end another program for youth.


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## MeatheadMick

Well at first I agreed with the decision... make it all inclusive, since it makes sense... also disagree with religion being taught in Cadets... they have churches/mosques/temples for that, the Cadet Corps is for a different kind of experience. When you look at the listing for an All/Only Aboriginal Cadet Corps, then why the hell not... give the Sikhs their own corps too... or better yet, don't play favourites and make them both open to everybody.

It makes sense to a point, if the Aboriginal Cadets is in a high Aboriginal Populated Zone, it would see the most members from that respective group. The Sikh Cadets may be in the same boat. I'm all for everyone getting a long with no racial/religious segregation, however you can't play favourites to one specific group and shoot down another, it really is not fair.


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## Jarnhamar

I wouldn't be comfortable sending my children to cadets located in a temple.

 You can't pretend there isn't a marked difference between the Scotish/Irish highlanders of Toronto and

The Islamic Warriors of Toronto.  
Of the Jewish Brethren of Brantford
Christian Crusaders of Cornwall.

I would guess it would be very hard to remove the religious aspect of a Sikh regiment.


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## Tank Troll

:goodpost:  That is the problem I see as well.


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## JorgSlice

REF: Aboriginal unit.

I guarantee you that it is advertised "Aboriginal Only" however, as per the 'Rules' it has to be all-inclusive. Either that or there's some clause in the Indian Act that allows the First Nations, and only the First Nations to pull this off.


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## Strike

The comments re: the naming of the Sea Cadet corps is also a red herring.  Those organizations are named after former/current Canadian and Britsh ships. That those names are reflective of native groups or Indian towns is not the fault of the cadet org as a whole but a reflection of RCN history.


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## garb811

> Uniforms and shoes and special turbans have already been ordered.


This has me scratching my head.  How do you order uniforms through the supply system without being officially formed, or have they bought a uniform of their own pattern based on...?


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## Teeps74

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be comfortable sending my children to cadets located in a temple.
> 
> You can't pretend there isn't a marked difference between the Scotish/Irish highlanders of Toronto and
> 
> The Islamic Warriors of Toronto.
> Of the Jewish Brethren of Brantford
> Christian Crusaders of Cornwall.
> 
> I would guess it would be very hard to remove the religious aspect of a Sikh regiment.



Considering that Sikhism is a religion and not a race nor ethnic group... It would be impossible to separate religion from the issue.

The Cadets is supposed to be inclusive... Granted, I am very rusty on the CATOs...


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## Infanteer

Interesting - the Sikhs have a long and proud martial tradition in the Commonwealth - just look up a history of some of the Sikh regiments.  I only have two questions:

1.  Is the turban standard wear?  I'd assume so (just like those funny Scots/Irish hats....) - does this bother Sikhs? (I don't think so - you see non-Sikhs covering their heads when they visit Gurdwaras)

2.  Is there any intent to use the cadet program to promote religious values?

If not, I'm all for this.


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## BDTyre

Better change the name of all those Irish, Scottish and English named reserve units and cadet corps.


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## chrisf

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I wouldn't be comfortable sending my children to cadets located in a temple.



I spent many of my more formative years attending beavers, cubs, then scouts, in the basements of a number of churches... I don't think it ever had any positive or negative effects on my current religious leanings...

For what it's worth, those current religious leanings are "respectfully militant atheist", and as an avowed atheist, I think you're all blowing this a bit out of proportion...

A few years ago, our unit received a request to support a cadet corp, we were asked to come out and "teach somthing".

So, as a signals unit, we figured, hey, let's teach radios. So we packed up a few motorolas, and off we went, to teach a bit of VHF theory and some voice procedure.

After arriving at the cadet corp, we discovered that somone had failed to pass on a vital piece of information, The cadet corp we were teaching was hosted by a local residential school for deaf students, and all the cadets were quite deaf. 

We still managed to teach a bit about VHF, and everyone seemed to have good fun. Now, what's the difference between a cadet corp hosted by the school for the deaf and the left handed dog walkers cadet corp you're terrified of?

I firmly believe it's possible for a cadet corp to be both inclusive, and be tailored to a specific community...


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## chrisf

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 1.  Is the turban standard wear?  I'd assume so (just like those funny Scots/Irish hats....) - does this bother Sikhs? (I don't think so - you see non-Sikhs covering their heads when they visit Gurdwaras)



That is a really interesting question.... are there any "Sikh" regiments similar to "Highland" units??? (Anywhere that is, not Canada)


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## my72jeep

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 1.  Is the turban standard wear?  I'd assume so (just like those funny Scots/Irish hats....) - does this bother Sikhs? (I don't think so - you see non-Sikhs covering their heads when they visit Gurdwaras)


The Cadet program issues Turban's and Hijabs in elemental colors.  It is up to the Cadet weather they choose to wear them.


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## JorgSlice

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Considering that Sikhism is a religion and not a race nor ethnic group... It would be impossible to separate religion from the issue.
> 
> The Cadets is supposed to be inclusive... Granted, I am very rusty on the CATOs...





			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Interesting - the Sikhs have a long and proud martial tradition in the Commonwealth - just look up a history of some of the Sikh regiments.  I only have two questions:
> 
> 1.  Is the turban standard wear?  I'd assume so (just like those funny Scots/Irish hats....) - does this bother Sikhs? (I don't think so - you see non-Sikhs covering their heads when they visit Gurdwaras)
> 
> 2.  Is there any intent to use the cadet program to promote religious values?
> 
> If not, I'm all for this.



But see, in the Sikh community there's this problem. Throughout my time in Surrey living and working with Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Indians. Fijians etc... 

Many of the Sikhs you'd call Indian would go "NO! I am Punjabi, I am Sikh. I am not Indian" They believe they are the master race of India and Sikhism is not just a religion, it's a lifestyle and a community. Not all of them mind you, HOWEVER, a good friend of mine in the CIC/COATS world told me that this "Sikh Cadet" unit organizer came to him because he's Sikh and asked him if he'd be the commanding officer: "...because the Government wants to assign us a Commanding Officer that's non-Sikh and that's not what we want. We need dedicated Sikhs that know our teachings and want to go further to fulfill the 5 K's"



			
				a Sig Op said:
			
		

> That is a really interesting question.... are there any "Sikh" regiments similar to "Highland" units??? (Anywhere that is, not Canada)



Other than India? Pakistan might have one, but other than that, it only exists in India.



			
				a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I firmly believe it's possible for a cadet corp to be both inclusive, and be tailored to a specific community...



Community, fine, and the example of the Deaf Children is a great one, however with the Sikh Community's intent with this cadet unit, is not the same you speak of.



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> This has me scratching my head.  How do you order uniforms through the supply system without being officially formed, or have they bought a uniform of their own pattern based on...?



It's likely that is what happened. How? No idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 2.  Is there any intent to use the cadet program to promote religious values?



I believe this is the only question of substance in this whole affair.


----------



## JorgSlice

Why not call it the "XXXX Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps (Buckham Singh)"? Surely any good faithful Sikh, especially the Canadian ones should know about him.

But as, Mr O'Leary says, the concern of religious teachings being involved is the #1 concern of everyone, including the CF.


----------



## ModlrMike

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Why not call it the "XXXX Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps (Buckham Singh)"? Surely any good faithful Sikh, especially the Canadian ones should know about him.
> 
> But as, Mr O'Leary says, the concern of religious teachings being involved is the #1 concern of everyone, including the CF.



Except for this part:



> Caron said they’ve offered the group a number of alternative names they believe still celebrate Sikh heritage, like naming it after a prominent Sikh leader, veteran or community member.
> 
> But Sikh cadet corps founder and publisher of the South Asian Post, Harbinder Singh Sewak, said they weren’t familiar with any of the veterans names that were suggested.
> 
> “We don’t know any history about this guy so why put a name that doesn’t resonate or anything that has to do with the Sikh cadets at all,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to me.”


----------



## JorgSlice

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Except for this part:



Would that not be incentive to LEARN about said person/veteran?  :facepalm: Excuses, excuses.

I never knew who "Grant McConachie" was in "810 Grant McConachie Squadron, Royal Canadian Army Cadets" until a friend of mine mentioned it. Many of those kids in that Squadron probably joined having no clue who he is.


----------



## Jarnhamar

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I spent many of my more formative years attending beavers, cubs, then scouts, in the basements of a number of churches... I don't think it ever had any positive or negative effects on my current religious leanings...



Fair enough. It still is a big possibility. We've commented often enough on here about profs at colleges and universities pushing their beliefs (not necessarily religion) onto students. It's not outside the realm of possibility.




> For what it's worth, those current religious leanings are "respectfully militant atheist", and as an avowed atheist, I think you're all blowing this a bit out of proportion...



I'm not all that against the idea honestly.   I think aboriginal corps are a great idea, but they strike me as less religious.  
I think having a Sikh cadet corps out of a Sikh temple might be pushing boundaries. 
This may be too much of a side bar but I think it's a slippery slope.    How well do you think a Jewish corps out of a synagogue would jive in the same city with a Muslim corps out of a mosque?  Can you imagine the constant shit storm that would cause?
I'm sure the kids wouldn't care all that much but I wouldn't trust the parents or especially the supporters/organizers to be mature about it. 

I still think there is a huge difference between highland units and something based from religion, even if it's a nice friendly one.  The question truly is would they be able to pull this off while remaining religiously neutral.



> “We don’t know any history about this guy so why put a name that doesn’t resonate or anything that has to do with the Sikh cadets at all,” he said. “It doesn’t make sense to me.”


Right here they are singling out the Sikh cadets and making the corps about them and not about the cadets in general.

If what PrairieThunder said about them getting upset over a non-Sikh CO is accurate then that's another issue all together and indicative, in my opinion, of an unhealthy mindset.


----------



## JorgSlice

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> If what PrairieThunder said about them getting upset over a non-Sikh CO is accurate then that's another issue all together and indicative, in my opinion, of an unhealthy mindset.



Well, they don't have a choice. It was one of the Conditions that RCSU(PAC) has put on to supporting the opening of this unit, they need someone there who knows what they're doing and to keep things in CADETS. The Major they have opted to send to that unit if it is opened is a very intelligent man that I have much respect for and would definitely keep everyone in line. It was just a sad thing to hear, 'tis all.


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## MeatheadMick

Although I'm all for having cultural pride, if you are serving as a Cadet organization that should come first. If they choose to be a religion oriented group, rather than a military related organization that can be proud of Sikh heritage than perhaps they should be content with being a youth group beyond the limitations of the Cadet Corps. Having a cultural uniform vice a traditional Cadet uniform may as well be part of the problem.  Our serving Regular Force and Primary Reserve members wear the Canadian Forces uniform with a Sikh headdress. 

If this organization wants to be associated with the Canadian Forces, as the Cadets are, they should follow suit. I originally believed that they were having hard-ships naming a Cadet unit after their community for recruiting purposes and cultural belonging, but this does seem the issue.  If religion plays so strongly in this aspect, I revoke my original statement, as I clearly misunderstood the intent.  The Aboriginal unit mentioned can not be compared the same, as it is obvious that they are Cadets first, with a similar cultural heritage, as I believed the Sikh unit was trying to be.

Interesting Topic!


----------



## daftandbarmy

MPMick said:
			
		

> Although I'm all for having cultural pride, if you are serving as a Cadet organization that should come first. If they choose to be a religion oriented group, rather than a military related organization that can be proud of Sikh heritage than perhaps they should be content with being a youth group beyond the limitations of the Cadet Corps. Having a cultural uniform vice a traditional Cadet uniform may as well be part of the problem.  Our serving Regular Force and Primary Reserve members wear the Canadian Forces uniform with a Sikh headdress.
> 
> If this organization wants to be associated with the Canadian Forces, as the Cadets are, they should follow suit. I originally believed that they were having hard-ships naming a Cadet unit after their community for recruiting purposes and cultural belonging, but this does seem the issue.  If religion plays so strongly in this aspect, I revoke my original statement, as I clearly misunderstood the intent.  The Aboriginal unit mentioned can not be compared the same, as it is obvious that they are Cadets first, with a similar cultural heritage, as I believed the Sikh unit was trying to be.
> 
> Interesting Topic!



So how about the 'Junior Canadian Rangers (Sikh Contingent)'. The rest of the program seems to be fully dominated by one cultural group i.e., First NAtions/ Inuit, and could do with some balancing out. 

http://www.jcr-rjc.ca/ove-ape/his/index-eng.asp


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## JorgSlice

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So how about the 'Junior Canadian Rangers (Sikh Contingent)'. The rest of the program seems to be fully dominated by one cultural group i.e., First NAtions/ Inuit, and could do with some balancing out.
> 
> http://www.jcr-rjc.ca/ove-ape/his/index-eng.asp



Why does it have to be a "Sikh Contingent"? This is the problem I'm having. The JCR are not exclusive to only Aboriginals, it's ANYONE in Northern or Remote Canadian regions between 12-18 (and then there's the COATS/CIC staff).

If the Sikhs want to move north into remote communities that qualify for JCR, then they can open one/join one without all the "SIKH" overhead that they want to try it call it their own. It does not belong to them, or any one ethnic group in this country - it belongs to us all in equal parts.


----------



## JorgSlice

Update:
Reproduced under Fair Dealings Provisions under the Copyright Act



> World Sikh Organization of Canada offers support to Sikh Cadet Corps push
> Vancouverdesi.com
> Article Link
> 
> The World Sikh Organization of Canada is offering their full support to the Surrey community in the fight for the Surrey Sikh cadet corps, it announced Tuesday.
> 
> “We’ll back up any petition they have put out,” Senior Policy Advisor Gian Singh Sandhu told VancovuerDesi.com. “(We’re) insisting that the government needs to come to the table and discuss with the community.”
> 
> ...
> 
> “The community is really upset,” said Bhurji. “The reason everybody wanted their kids in it was because of the name.”
> 
> Bhurji, along with members of Surrey’s South Asian community – including school boards and temples – have united to put together a petition in an effort to fight for the Sikh Cadet Corps.
> 
> ...
> 
> “Being called the ‘Surrey Sikhs’ would honour and celebrate the history of Sikh regiments and would be no different than names currently in use honouring other historic regiments such as the Highlanders, Irish or Hussars,” WSO President Prem Singh Vinning said in a release.
> 
> The organization is calling for a review of the decision.



Do they really stand a chance? This is getting ridiculous.

I especially like the part:



> “Being called the ‘Surrey Sikhs’ would honour and celebrate the history of Sikh regiments and would be no different than names currently in use honouring other historic regiments such as the Highlanders, Irish or Hussars,” WSO President Prem Singh Vinning said in a release.



He's really up to snuff on his Canadian Military history huh?


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## MeatheadMick

I can't get over this:



> “The community is really upset,” said Bhurji. “The reason everybody wanted their kids in it was because of the name.”



It's obviously not about being a Cadet if it's all about the name. Still too much at stake with religion vs the traditional role of the Cadets.  Culture and diversity is one thing, but if all the community cares about is the name... then as I stated before, create a religious youth group as a separate entity away from the Cadet Corps.


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## JorgSlice

In the end, the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) had plans to sponsor another Cadet unit affiliated to them in Surrey (apart from the already existing Cadet units in Vancouver, Powell River, Port Moody and Richmond) and the CF has the ultimate ruling when it comes to these things, it will be opened as 3300 The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps and the Sikh community will just have to deal with the reality of it. If they wish to boycott the Canadian Cadet Organizations because they didn't get their way, then let them. There will be many more dedicated and proud youth that will join it without trying to threaten the governments.


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## garb811

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> In the end, the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) had plans to sponsor another Cadet unit affiliated to them in Surrey (apart from the already existing Cadet units in Vancouver, Powell River, Port Moody and Richmond) and the CF has the ultimate ruling when it comes to these things, it will be opened as 3300 The British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own) Royal Canadian Army Cadet Corps and the Sikh community will just have to deal with the reality of it. If they wish to boycott the Canadian Cadet Organizations because they didn't get their way, then let them. There will be many more dedicated and proud youth that will join it without trying to threaten the governments.


That's a pretty definitive statement.  Source?


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## JorgSlice

garb811 said:
			
		

> That's a pretty definitive statement.  Source?



Uhh... well... I think you got me on that one.

It was talk out of RCSU(PAC) for quite some time, several of my colleagues that are Reservist ULOs or CIC officers had been given tentative offers to go to this unit. Now I realize it may not actually be this particular unit, however there is at least going to be a unit stand up in Surrey affiliated to BCR.

Looking at it now, I should have had some more solid info and not "flapped the gums" as much.  :-\


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## Maxadia

I think the one glaring and most potentially damning problem of this entire topic has been mentioned several times, but in passing: the parents.

If the parents get themselves into the mode of " it's OUR cadet group and WE  want to decide how it is run", there is no telling the amount of stupidity that can come out of it by letting them have their way with the naming of the unit.  First it's the name, then it's a small religious component, then all of a sudden some whack job opposes half the training because they're a pacifist or something and it's too "militaristic."

I've seen it happen with school groups all the time...teams, trips, etc.  Sometimes, someone just needs to step up to the plate and say the buck stops here.  There's plenty of other parents out there who will appreciate that sort of stance being taken.


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## Ignatius J. Reilly

:goodpost:

I agree entirely.


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## Jarnhamar

MPMick said:
			
		

> It's obviously not about being a Cadet if it's all about the name. Still too much at stake with religion vs the traditional role of the Cadets.  Culture and diversity is one thing, but if all the community cares about is the name... then as I stated before, create a religious youth group as a separate entity away from the Cadet Corps.



Excellent point.  The hang up on the name does seem to indicate a certain mindset.





			
				RDJP said:
			
		

> If the parents get themselves into the mode of " it's OUR cadet group and WE  want to decide how it is run", there is no telling the amount of stupidity that can come out of it by letting them have their way with the naming of the unit.  First it's the name, then it's a small religious component, then all of a sudden some whack job opposes half the training because they're a pacifist or something and it's too "militaristic."



Great point.   They've already ordered special turbans and shoes- I have a feeling this would turn out to be a battle of what could they change (get away with) next.


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## Northalbertan

I believe it boils down to this.  The MOU clearly defines the roles that the various Leagues, Sponsoring Committees, and the CF are responsible for within the CCO.  I can say for certain that religious teachings are NOT part of what we do.  The CF does make available culturally specific items such as turbans if the cadets want to wear them.  I even know of a cadet corps in Saskatchewan that had skirts made for a few cadets whose religious beliefs forbade them from wearing pants.  We try to be as accommodating as we can to ENCOURAGE diversity and be all inclusive, not exclusive.

The CF provides the basic uniforms.  Highland cadet corps either have their affiliated unit supply accoutrements or the sponsoring committee raises money to purchase them.  CATOs clearly define what is allowed.  I am unsure of the process in naming a cadet corps but believe it is the CF that has the final say.  The sponsoring committee should have known from the beginning what their role would be in standing up this corps.

I wish the new CO a lot of luck.  The staff here are going to have their hands very full and having the media keeping an eye on things to this degree is not going to make the job any easier.


Northalbertan


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## rwgill

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> I am unsure of the process in naming a cadet corps but believe it is the CF that has the final say.



Name and number (not UIC) of a Cadet Corps is assigned by the Army Cadet League of Canada.
http://www.armycadetleague.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Policy-3.8-Forming-a-Cadet-Corps-Rev-Sep-2012.pdf



> Assignment of names and numbers to a new cadet corps will be administered by the National Office and authorized by the Executive Committee. A name shall not suggest that the cadet corps is closed to any group nor shall it reflect any posture offensive to Canadians.



However, IAW CATO 11-10, DND appears to be required to agree (although the only specific limitation appears to be against the naming of a unit after a living person).  I am not sure who has the true trump card.

That said, Cadet Corps do and have had names with religious affiliations,  #2 Bishop's College being the most well known and oldest.  Some are/were named after their sponsors, others a training location and others a geographic area (which makes avoiding religion very difficult). Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.


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## ModlrMike

rwgill said:
			
		

> Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.



True, but those Corps do not provide religious instruction:



> The XXX Cadet Corps (Surrey Sikh) is open to all Canadian youth to enlist. It is our mission that cadets in our unit learn the bedrock Sikh values of being a “Saint-Soldier” or of standing up for those who are defenceless in the face of tyranny.



That's the part most of us have issues with. Not with the Sikh part specifically, but with the religious part in general. I would have the same opinion if for example the Knights of Columbus sponsored a corps with the desire to make the children better Catholics.



Edited for clarity.


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## JorgSlice

rwgill said:
			
		

> Name and number (not UIC) of a Cadet Corps is assigned by the Army Cadet League of Canada.
> http://www.armycadetleague.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Policy-3.8-Forming-a-Cadet-Corps-Rev-Sep-2012.pdf
> 
> However, IAW CATO 11-10, DND appears to be required to agree (although the only specific limitation appears to be against the naming of a unit after a living person).  I am not sure who has the true trump card.
> 
> That said, Cadet Corps do and have had names with religious affiliations,  #2 Bishop's College being the most well known and oldest.  Some are/were named after their sponsors, others a training location and others a geographic area (which makes avoiding religion very difficult). Sponsorship has also come from several religious organizations and continues to.  Cadet Units do parade in houses of worship and religious schools.



Bishop's College is hardly the same as naming it after a religion like "Catholic Cadets", same as "St. Andrews College". They are cadet units, named after their schools. Both Bishop's and St. Andrews are non-religious schools despite the fact that St. Andrews used to be, their cadet unit and academics have no religious influence anymore.

I have never heard of any cadet units being named after churches or sponsors (apart from the Affiliated Unit). Care to provide some examples? Cadets parade in religious facilities however they do not have a a Religious Organizing committee demanding they be named after their religion and have religious teachings included.


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## my72jeep

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Bishop's College is hardly the same as naming it after a religion like "Catholic Cadets", same as "St. Andrews College". They are cadet units, named after their schools. Both Bishop's and St. Andrews are non-religious schools despite the fact that St. Andrews used to be, their cadet unit and academics have no religious influence anymore.
> 
> I have never heard of any cadet units being named after churches or sponsors (apart from the Affiliated Unit). Care to provide some examples? Cadets parade in religious facilities however they do not have a a Religious Organizing committee demanding they be named after their religion and have religious teachings included.


2415 Gonzaga High School Army Cadet Corps named after the Catholic High School that is there Sponsor. 2355 Church Lads Brigade Cadet Corps, 3012 Our Lady of Lourdes Army Cadet Corps. shall I carry on?


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## JorgSlice

my72jeep said:
			
		

> 2415 Gonzaga High School Army Cadet Corps named after the Catholic High School that is there Sponsor. 2355 Church Lads Brigade Cadet Corps, 3012 Our Lady of Lourdes Army Cadet Corps. shall I carry on?



Our Lady of Lourdes was renamed to Lynx in 1994 as the cadets came from a broad range of communities and a more all-inclusive and generic name was needed.

Gonzaga is no longer a catholic school as it is now a non-denominational coeducation institute. 

Church Lads is the only one that I know of that currently retains a religious affiliation, and it shouldn't to reflect the regulations and the purpose of the cadet movement. But as I said, the Sikhs just want the name Sikh so that can have something that is there's. The article said so itself, they wanted their children to join only because of the name. They don't care about the Army Cadet program, they want the name, and to teach Sikhism. The old "church" affiliations had no hand in preaching their teachings in the units.


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## my72jeep

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Our Lady of Lourdes was renamed to Lynx in 1994 as the cadets came from a broad range of communities and a more all-inclusive and generic name was needed.
> 
> Gonzaga is no longer a catholic school as it is now a non-denominational coeducation institute.
> 
> Church Lads is the only one that I know of that currently retains a religious affiliation, and it shouldn't to reflect the regulations and the purpose of the cadet movement. But as I said, the Sikhs just want the name Sikh so that can have something that is there's. The article said so itself, they wanted their children to join only because of the name. They don't care about the Army Cadet program, they want the name, and to teach Sikhism. The old "church" affiliations had no hand in preaching their teachings in the units.



Hell you don't need to convince me I agree with you. I was pointing out that there are some Cadet units with Religious names.


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## mariomike

For what it is worth, there were at least two Jewish air cadet squadrons during the war. 

One in Toronto ( 219 B'nai B'rith ), and another ( 54 Maccabee ) in Ottawa:
http://archive.jta.org/article/1941/11/16/2855791/jewish-air-corps-cadet-group-established-in-ottawa


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## rwgill

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Bishop's College is hardly the same as naming it after a religion like "Catholic Cadets", same as "St. Andrews College". They are cadet units, named after their schools. Both Bishop's and St. Andrews are non-religious schools despite the fact that St. Andrews used to be, their cadet unit and academics have no religious influence anymore.


The names of the units originate from religious affiliations AND sponsors.  The same can be said for any Cadet Corps that is named after a municipality that is named after a Saint.    



			
				PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> I have never heard of any cadet units being named after churches or sponsors (apart from the Affiliated Unit). Care to provide some examples? Cadets parade in religious facilities


2688 Bridgewater Kinsmen (sponsor)
2611 (inactive since 1996) was called Legion Canadienne de Grandmere, Corps de Cadets Chambre de Commerce de Grand'Mere, Corps de Cadets Club Optimiste Grand'Mere, Corps de Cadets Kinsmen Grand'Mere AND Corps de Cadets Optimiste (sponsors)
2950 Herdman Collegiate Cadet Corps (sponsor)
572 Humboldt Legion Cadet Corps (sponsor)

Do I need to go on?



			
				PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> however they do not have a a Religious Organizing committee demanding they be named after their religion and have religious teachings included.


Name is decided by the sponsor and appropriate League.  Instruction is decided upon by DND.  Forming and maintaining a Cadet Corps is a partnership.


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