# Pilot/Engineer Officer Dilemma



## Gunshark (17 Jan 2013)

Hey guys,

Hopefully the experienced folks here will be able to provide some advice/insight with regards to my situation. Thanks a lot in advance.

I am originally a Pilot applicant, since July 2012, with the other two options left blank as I did not want anything else to potentially affect my Pilot application. I had my aircrew selection this week, and unfortunately was unsuccessful. I can try again in 1 year, and have to come back with a PPL. I am in fact strongly considering retrying in the future.

The other trade I am now interested in is Engineer Officer (part of Combat Arms). I have technical background and have always liked technical work. Combining that with field work and leadership makes it only more awesome.

So now I'm in this predicament. Do I wait a year, get my PPL, continue improving my Pilot application, hope that Pilot spots will be open next year, and then try again? -OR- Do I go and specify Engineer Officer as my new trade of choice while my file is still open, fresh, and fairly competitive and then few years down the road request a transfer to Pilot if I still want it?

The first option allows me the chance of achieving my original choice of trade sooner, provided the positions are open in a year. However, there are no guarantees that in one year pilot spots will be open, or that I will pass, or that engineer spots will be open - potentially leaving me with nothing at all. It will also mean doing new things to keep my application in top notch shape, and likely working another year at a job I don't find amusing. Not complaining, just stating facts.

The second option, if application goes through, allows me to join the CF sooner and participate in the trade that I'm highly interested in. Even if I may want to go Pilot later, I still have great interest in getting field experience, and doing technical as well as infantry work as part of Combat Arms. I figure if I love it, I may not even want to switch to Pilot any longer. And if I still want to try for Pilot, I will have ground tactics knowledge etc in my pocket, and be a more well rounded member of the CF going into a different trade. I see having various experiences as a benefit. However, the drawback is that I will have to wait more years should my heart yearn again for Pilot. I am 26 now, so I would probably be over 30 when applying for Pilot again.

I am leaning towards the second option, and I'm not asking you to make the decision for me. I know that only I can make it, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I simply explained my story to hopefully receive any thoughts that may come to your mind, and perhaps any advice that you may have, having experienced how things work in the CF, or maybe even having experienced such dilemmas yourself. My question is, would it be easy to component transfer out of Engineer Officer should I choose to pursue Pilot (or maybe even another trade within Combat Arms)? How long is the training process for Engineer Officers and how early would I be able to transfer? I was told by someone that I will have to serve at least 3 years in a trade before transferring. Would it be a problem transferring from the Army to the Air Force? Would my rank/pay continue progressing or would I be starting at the bottom? (Would the CF allow me to try aircrew selection first before filing any transfers? Because if I don't pass, I'd like to keep the Engineer Officer job!)

Does anyone know how many Engineer Officer spots approx. are open now?

Thanks guys. Please share any thoughts that come to mind. Much appreciated.


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## PuckChaser (18 Jan 2013)

If you really, really want to be a pilot, wait and upgrade your credentials. If you can deal with spending 25 years as an Engineering Officer and enjoy what you do even if you can't transfer to pilot, do that. Don't settle for something you might not like doing because you think you can transfer later, because the forums and CF are full of people who don't like their trade that they picked because they thought it was an easy transfer.


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## SIROEW (18 Jan 2013)

In reference to your last question about the number of spots available, it all depends on how you're applying. In other words, there might be 15 spots for ROTP applicants while there might be 30 for DEO and only 5 for CEOTP. These are just random numbers, but I hope that makes sense to you.


Good luck!


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

I didn't mean to imply that I won't be dedicated to my trade or that I won't enjoy it. I don't mean to use it only as a gateway to Pilot, and take away a spot from someone who really wants it. The reason I'm considering the Engineer Officer trade is because I have technical background, and my best guess is that I would enjoy a mix of technical work, being in the field, and learning to be a good leader. And after trying out this trade, I may very well feel that I don't want to transfer elsewhere.

With that being said, aviation still remains my interest. But the timeline is long and the risks are many, which is why I'm considering getting involved elsewhere before retrying, should I still want to. If I do wish to retry for Pilot after all, I think the Engineer knowledge and leadership would only be of benefit. For example, I think it would be of benefit to understand ground tactics for a pilot who is providing air support.

So in sum, both trades interest me, for very different reasons, and I'd love to have experience in both. So in case I do decide to look at transferring down the road, is it reasonable to expect it to be successful? Just for my info. Thnx.


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

Also, I'd be applying as DEO.


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## PuckChaser (18 Jan 2013)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> So in sum, both trades interest me, for very different reasons, and I'd love to have experience in both. So in case I do decide to look at transferring down the road, is it reasonable to expect it to be successful? Just for my info. Thnx.



Don't expect to have anything go the way you want in the CF, and you'll have a happy career.  8) Transfers are not guaranteed, and you can't predict 10 years from now what your health (your airfactor could change), the pilot trade status, engineering officer trade status, etc, etc. If you really want to be a pilot, do the PPL and apply next year.


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Don't expect to have anything go the way you want in the CF, and you'll have a happy career.  8) Transfers are not guaranteed, and you can't predict 10 years from now what your health (your airfactor could change), the pilot trade status, engineering officer trade status, etc, etc. If you really want to be a pilot, do the PPL and apply next year.



Your point is well understood. But the reality is that none of those things are predictable in one year either, while right now I may be in a better spot to apply into a different trade.

The risk of not getting into the CF anytime soon at all may be greater than the risk of not being able to component transfer mid-term. Which may not be a risk at all considering I'm highly interested in the Engineer trade to start with and want to have that experience in my pocket, and may discover that I want to stay in it anyway.

Worst case would be a combination of still wanting pilot and not being able to transfer. In which case I'd serve out the full term of the Engineer and potentially apply for Pilot in my mid 30s. Is that too late? Can still fly a full term before I'm 50, provided the health cooperates.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.


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## shogun506 (18 Jan 2013)

Too bad to hear you didn't make it. You should think about the degree of your interest in aviation. Is it just a passing fancy or is it something you need to do in your lifetime? Personally, I would be happy to be an engineering officer. I regret not doing an engineering degree in school. I know that if I hadn't passed ASC, I would push to be an infantry officer or an engineering officer and would go as far as to go to RMC to get that degree if necessary. What are your reasons for wanting to join? I'm joining because I want the training, the opportunity for advancement, and most of all, the challenge. Everyone wants the glamour of flying fighter jets or helicopters, but there is a lot of merit in excelling as an army officer as well. If you can commit yourself and have 100% drive in whatever trade you are accepted in, you will get somewhere you can be proud of. So in the end you need to ask yourself, 20 years from now, would you be upset if you never flew but did something else worthwhile with your life?


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

Good thinking points. I would say I'd like to have both experiences under my belt actually. If I go Pilot, I would most likely never get to try anything again, because the training will be long etc. If I go as Engineer Officer, I get to do something that interests me sooner. If I'm unable to transfer, I'm still doing something I love. And maybe I can go Pilot at the end of my term at the latest, which is in 9 years or so. I'll be around 35.

My reasons for wanting to join is to help protect people of this country or those in need elsewhere. To be part of a team that really stands for something and where bonds are strong. To be challenged to my max. To go on adventures. To be in the field. To go on missions. To travel. To learn myself. To have my character tested. But do it all in one of the trades that has my interest and that I think I can do well, because only in this case I will be able to contribute effectively.

With regards to transfer, so far I seem to be getting a feeling that it's impossible. Is it honestly that bad? Is the likelihood that great that I'll have to serve a full term?


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## PanaEng (18 Jan 2013)

Transferring is not impossible - it has happened - but it is pretty rare. The key is that you have to perform well and get a recommendation from you Commanding Officer (CO) but COs don't like loosing a star young officer or recommending (putting their name behind) someone that is not a good officer and low potential to succeed which would reflect badly on them. 
I've known a few ppl with your same (maybe similar) situation that after a few years they are doing very well and having fun and just stay. Some get their flying fix by getting their licence with the local flying club and take a small plane out once a month or so.
By far though, the movement is the other way; ppl that for one reason or another don't reach their goal of being a fighter pilot at some stage in that road and decide they want to leave the AF completely - saw one last year; he spent a couple of months in my unit doing OJT and getting his army gear before going to CFSME.


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

The OT sounds like a Catch 22 haha. I'm just trying to understand where my priorities are. My current feeling is I would love both Engineer Officer and Pilot occupations for different reasons. And part of me would probably regret not doing the other, no matter which one I pick haha. So perhaps I can do both! One after another. Is it too late to revisit Pilot in my mid-30s?


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## 2010newbie (18 Jan 2013)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Is it too late to revisit Pilot in my mid-30s?



No, I was 33 when i was accepted.


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## Gunshark (18 Jan 2013)

2010newbie said:
			
		

> No, I was 33 when i was accepted.



Nice. How has your career progressed so far? Any regrets?


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## trampbike (18 Jan 2013)

Have you ever flown an airplane?
If you have never held the controls of an airplane, I guess it's always going to be hard for you to make your choice.

I think you should at least start your PPL. If after a couple of hours of flying, you are not flabbergasted, then go the engineer route, it looks like a great job and a fantastic career. If on the other hand you experienced what I felt during my first flying hours, then the dillema will seem trivial to you. 

Also, it can be quite fun to hold a PPL:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o4boiTZHx0
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQVBJu0nM4o&list=UU5_8JhUDfaNkv6RPi65GiJw&index=10


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## justbud (18 Jan 2013)

trampbike said:
			
		

> Have you ever flown an airplane?
> If you have never held the controls of an airplane, I guess it's always going to be hard for you to make your choice.
> 
> I think you should at least start your PPL. If after a couple of hours of flying, you are not flabbergasted, then go the engineer route, it looks like a great job and a fantastic career. If on the other hand you experienced what I felt during my first flying hours, then the dillema will seem trivial to you.
> ...



I sure hope that wasn't you in the video, blatantly posting a video violating CAR's 602.14/15 and providing Transport Canada with the Aircraft Type and Identifier.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part6-602-2436.htm#602_14


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## trampbike (18 Jan 2013)

What exactly is reckless flying?
I'd say that for some pilot, the very fact that they fly on their own is quite reckless, while for others, a low level inverted loop in line abreast formation isn't reckless at all.


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## Gunshark (20 Jan 2013)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I have briefly flown a plane and loved every second of it. I think flying is something I do need to do in my lifetime.

In the last couple of days, I've thought of another option: Taking up a position in another trade in the Air Force to start, such as an ACSO or AEC. The service terms are shorter for these trades, so in about 6 years I would be able to try again for Pilot at the age of 32-33. The advantage is that I get to join the CF earlier and see how I like the CF life, learn about the Air Force, get experience in aviation from a different angle, progress my career/rank/pay/etc and then reapply as Pilot being hopefully more knowledge and well-rounded at that time. I hear AEC guys get to travel a ton too, which is nice. And I did pass the AEC exam already.

The disadvantage is that it would be 6+ years until I have a chance to reapply as Pilot, compared to about one year (well, in the best case) if I simply wait. Also, any downsides to trying for Pilot in early/mid 30s? Other than if my health starts declining..

How would this option work though? Would I be able to apply while serving? And if OT doesn't go through, would I have to leave the CF and apply again as a civilian? If I don't pass aircrew selection again, will I screw myself and end up with no job at all (i.e. Done the AEC term and not accepted for Pilot)?

Anyway, just thinking out loud and bouncing off ideas. Thanks guys.


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## Sf2 (20 Jan 2013)

Honestly,

No one can answer these questions except you.

The very nature of a military career is uncertainty.  It is impossible to "roadmap" your way along.

The best I advice I can give you (as a guy with 17yrs in, 11 of them with wings) - take any opportunity you can and run with it.  More often than not, its a blessing in disguise.

Good luck


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## RCDtpr (20 Jan 2013)

One thing to keep in mind is 6 years down the road you will be making good money.  I don't know your family situation, but when you are in your 30's, leaving the CF and at best collecting EI while you wait for who knows how long to get a job offer (that may never come) to rejoin the CF is not always plausible.

Just some food for thought though.


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## Melbatoast (20 Jan 2013)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> The disadvantage is that it would be 6+ years until I have a chance to reapply as Pilot, compared to about one year (well, in the best case) if I simply wait. Also, any downsides to trying for Pilot in early/mid 30s? Other than if my health starts declining..
> 
> How would this option work though? Would I be able to apply while serving? And if OT doesn't go through, would I have to leave the CF and apply again as a civilian? If I don't pass aircrew selection again, will I screw myself and end up with no job at all (i.e. Done the AEC term and not accepted for Pilot)?
> 
> Anyway, just thinking out loud and bouncing off ideas. Thanks guys.



I'm in my late 30s and in better physical shape than many of the RMC "kids" I OJT with. I am absolutely in better shape than I was when I was 25. There is no real reason your health will "decline" in your 30s if you actively, intelligently stay fit over the course of your life (outside of disease or freak injury something). Many elite athletes peak in their early 30s.

The biggest stumbling block will probably be "Do I really want to put up with this shit anymore?" Starting over at the bottom is a bit of a challenge. 

Your AEC term doesn't expire - if you aren't a complete screwup you should be able to continue on a couple of different contract terms until mandatory retirement if you so choose. No one will say, "This guy wants to be a pilot so we won't offer him further terms of service..."


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## Gunshark (20 Jan 2013)

Melbatoast said:
			
		

> I'm in my late 30s and in better physical shape than many of the RMC "kids" I OJT with. I am absolutely in better shape than I was when I was 25. There is no real reason your health will "decline" in your 30s if you actively, intelligently stay fit over the course of your life (outside of disease or freak injury something). Many elite athletes peak in their early 30s.
> 
> The biggest stumbling block will probably be "Do I really want to put up with this crap anymore?" Starting over at the bottom is a bit of a challenge.
> 
> Your AEC term doesn't expire - if you aren't a complete screwup you should be able to continue on a couple of different contract terms until mandatory retirement if you so choose. No one will say, "This guy wants to be a pilot so we won't offer him further terms of service..."



Gotcha. Good input.

I get the feeling though that it's harder to transfer occupations once you're in, as compared to applying from the civy street. So I can effectively deny my goal to someday fly if I accept another job offer. Is there truth to this? And I understand that a lot of people will advise to follow the dream from the get-go, which is sound advice. I am just considering the option of broadening my collective expertise and experience/adventure through another additional trade.

When you say "start at the bottom", do you mean just in terms of training? Will my rank/pay/status carry over?

Is it common for CF members to have been involved in two or more trades throughout their careers?

Thanks again, everyone.


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## dimsum (20 Jan 2013)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Gotcha. Good input.
> 
> I get the feeling though that it's harder to transfer occupations once you're in, as compared to applying from the civy street. So I can effectively deny my goal to someday fly if I accept another job offer. Is there truth to this? And I understand that a lot of people will advise to follow the dream from the get-go, which is sound advice. I am just considering the option of broadening my collective expertise and experience/adventure through another additional trade.
> 
> ...



A few things that you may be mixing up regarding ACSO career/training:

- ACSOs have a 4-year restricted release post-wings.  Effectively, that means you can't leave for 4 years AFTER you get your wings; with the wait times for BMOQ, 1 CFFTS and such, it's probably closer to 6-7 years by the time you are done that time.  It's possible (though highly rare) to get an occupational transfer within that time as well.  Afterwards, it's easier but by no means easy (or guaranteed).

- Regarding the "AEC exam", are you sure you didn't mean the ACSO exam that you take in Trenton?  And yes, ACSOs do travel lots, dependent on platform.  

If you end up following this route and switch to Pilot later, you keep your pay and most often your rank/seniority.  In my case (MARS to ACSO), I jumped up 2 IPCs (essentially yearly seniority levels).  That being said, I wouldn't suggest applying for another trade to "try it out" before applying to be a Pilot.  If you want it bad enough, reapply after a year.


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## Gunshark (20 Jan 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> A few things that you may be mixing up regarding ACSO career/training:
> 
> - ACSOs have a 4-year restricted release post-wings.  Effectively, that means you can't leave for 4 years AFTER you get your wings; with the wait times for BMOQ, 1 CFFTS and such, it's probably closer to 6-7 years by the time you are done that time.  It's possible (though highly rare) to get an occupational transfer within that time as well.  Afterwards, it's easier but by no means easy (or guaranteed).
> 
> ...



Thanks. I got a piece of paper in Trenton that says I met the standard for AEC. Then we had a presentation on aerospace control and went on a tour to the control tower. No references were made to ACSOs. I'm assuming it was all about aerospace control. Did I miss something?

If I sign on for a trade, it would definitely be because of interest, and I would try to perform the duties to the best of my abilities. My motivation would not be to use it as means to get closer to Pilot, but rather to learn another trade, expand my skillset. I may no longer wish for pilot later. But I'd like to leave myself with that option. My only question is whether it's harder to land pilot while already in military vs applying from the street. Because if I potentially deny myself the chance of ever flying, that might affect my decision.

Thank you.


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## shogun506 (20 Jan 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> A few things that you may be mixing up regarding ACSO career/training:
> 
> - ACSOs have a 4-year restricted release post-wings.  Effectively, that means you can't leave for 4 years AFTER you get your wings; with the wait times for BMOQ, 1 CFFTS and such, it's probably closer to 6-7 years by the time you are done that time.  It's possible (though highly rare) to get an occupational transfer within that time as well.  Afterwards, it's easier but by no means easy (or guaranteed).
> 
> ...



Hold on, ACSOs get wings? Are they just representative of their navigation skills or do they actually fly?


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2013)

Pilots, ACSOs, AESOPS, AECs, AC OPs, Flight Engineers, Load Masters and Flight Stewards all get wings.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Jan 2013)

And SAR Techs.



			
				Reaper-1 said:
			
		

> Hold on, ACSOs get wings? Are they just representative of their navigation skills or do they actually fly?



I hope you meant that jokingly.  If not... :facepalm:

ACSO's fly in the LRP, MH, EW and Herc communities.  

http://va3kgb.ve3kbr.com/forces/air_trade_badges.htm


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## Good2Golf (20 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And SAR Techs.



Those too.


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## MAJONES (20 Jan 2013)

If you are really keen to get into the CF I'd suggest going ACSO.  The experience you get there will help you in pilot training if you decide to change trades later.  Working as a combat engineer or an AEC will not help you in pilot training.


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## dimsum (21 Jan 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And SAR Techs.
> 
> I hope you meant that jokingly.  If not... :facepalm:
> 
> ...



And UAVs, if we get them (seemingly subject to the whims of TB, RCAF, NDP, NATO, KGB and LMNOP.)


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## dimsum (21 Jan 2013)

Gunshark said:
			
		

> Thanks. I got a piece of paper in Trenton that says I met the standard for AEC. Then we had a presentation on aerospace control and went on a tour to the control tower. No references were made to ACSOs. I'm assuming it was all about aerospace control. Did I miss something?



No, you're correct.


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## PanaEng (21 Jan 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Pilots, ACSOs, AESOPS, AECs, AC OPs, Flight Engineers, Load Masters and Flight Stewards all get wings.



Basic Para get some wings too.... (nicer ones IMHO ;-)


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## Good2Golf (21 Jan 2013)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Basic Para get some wings too.... (nicer ones IMHO ;-)



Self-loading meatbags aren't aircrew, though (...he said, having meatbagged himself, outside the CF   ...)  

We were discussing folks who *use* things with wings, vice trying to *get out of* things with wings.  ;D

Regards
G2G


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## Journeyman (21 Jan 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Self-loading meatbags aren't aircrew, though...


The more pilots I know, the more I like getting out the back. 
But then, pilots are _merely_ commissioned bus-drivers, whose job is to get us to work.    








   Oh, and CF astronauts get wings too.....you know, as another option if it's just about the badges.


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## Good2Golf (21 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> But then, pilots are _merely_ commissioned bus-drivers, whose job is to get us to work.



   :-*


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## Gunshark (22 Jan 2013)

Thank you for your input guys. After more thought, I am leaning towards just reapplying for Pilot again in a year, if I am still yearning for it. Other trades do interest me as well, but I don't want to put myself in a position where I'll be unhappy in a trade, regretting I didn't retry for the original choice. This seems to coincide with the general advice on here as well, and I do understand why.

However, I am still interested in the Air Force from different perspectives as well. I wanted to ask you guys if it is a possibility to join the Reserves for AEC, for example, while I await to reapply as RegF Pilot. This could get me introduced to the CF potentially sooner, with Basic Training completed sooner etc. Is there a minimum contract for the Reserves? Would I be able to apply for Pilot from the Reserves in a year, or another period of time that is shorter compared to applying only after 4-5 years for occupation transfer if I took up a RefF trade? Would it make my application process somehow more difficult if I'm already in the Reserves as opposed to applying from civy street?

Thanks a lot. As always, appreciate the feedback.


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## PuckChaser (22 Jan 2013)

Joining the reserves to immediately turn around and join the RegF is not the "backdoor" into the CF. Don't waste the reserves training time and money, just apply to the RegF. Moving into the RegF from the reserves can sometimes take longer than joining off the street, and do you want to run the risk of having to do basic training twice?

Seriously, you've made it very clear want to be a pilot in the RegF. Wait the year, get your PPL and apply again. If you fail the ACS again, maybe pilot isn't for you and then you can worry about finding another trade that you'll like. Trying to find another way in while you're waiting that year is either going to blow up in your face, or waste a lot of people's time and effort.


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## Gunshark (23 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Joining the reserves to immediately turn around and join the RegF is not the "backdoor" into the CF. Don't waste the reserves training time and money, just apply to the RegF. Moving into the RegF from the reserves can sometimes take longer than joining off the street, and do you want to run the risk of having to do basic training twice?
> 
> Seriously, you've made it very clear want to be a pilot in the RegF. Wait the year, get your PPL and apply again. If you fail the ACS again, maybe pilot isn't for you and then you can worry about finding another trade that you'll like. Trying to find another way in while you're waiting that year is either going to blow up in your face, or waste a lot of people's time and effort.



My intention would not be to use anyone or anything as a "backdoor" to a Pilot career. But rather to join the CF sooner and get accustomed to military life, learn a relevant trade and become a well-rounded member, and then down the road hopefully become a more educated, effective, well-rounded Pilot.

But your point is understood. It is probably true that instead of what I've described, this can just become a complicated and frustrating method of joining the CF, one which could become wasteful of people's time and money.

I am pretty sure at this point that I will wait a year, work on my PPL and on my application, and try again next year. Thank you everyone for their insight.


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## DAA (23 Jan 2013)

At the end of the day, the old saying of "Soldier first, tradesmen later" always comes into play.  Some people dislike their job for whatever reason, while some just dislike the "environment" in which their job takes place.

The later of which is universal.....  So the first question anyone should ask themselves is "Do I want to be a member of the Armed Forces?" and then "What occupation would I like to pursue?"  Not vice versa.


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## dimsum (23 Jan 2013)

I echo DAA's thoughts, and will add that unlike the Army and Naval Reserve, you can't join the Air Reserve for trades such as AEC, etc.  Generally speaking, the Air Reserve is for people who were ex-Reg Force (even Pilots), so your plan wouldn't really work.

Waiting a year and reapplying is the best way to go.


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## Gunshark (23 Jan 2013)

Thanks, these are very good points. My primary reasons to want to join are to serve my country and help protect people, the teamwork, the challenge, the honour, the training. While I do believe in "soldier first, tradesman second" dogma, I believe that the members are of most value to the Force when they serve in the trade they enjoy and are good at, so that their morale is at their highest. So while I think that wanting to serve in the first place is the most important thing, I also think there is good sense in going after the trade of your choice, and if that plan falls through, then deciding what other trades interest you and going after those. In any case, these are big life decisions that deserve putting good thought into before making them, and I appreciate the advice you've been providing so far.


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