# Switching to Infantry or staying as a Combat Engineer



## Soldierup

I'll give a bit of a back story to my situation first. I originally signed up for the reserves as an Infantryman but due to the unit being almost at SIP or w/e the term is I was advised to look into another trade to ensure I was on a BMQ course. so I found an opening as a Combat Engineer and took it.Now I'm stuck in a bit of a conundrum, to attempt to go back to the Infantry unit which now has plenty of openings, or stay in the Combat Engineer unit. Infantry was always something I wanted to do but I feel like if I go back I'm missing out, any advice from anybody?
The field exercises as an Engineer and exercises as an Infanteer? How often are Engineers put in an Infantry role on Operation?
How often would I be dealing with work like Bridge Building and Demining work as opposed to combat?


----------



## MikeL

You should really think this through before going ahead with it - if that is your decision.


Perhaps you should have researched the Engineer trade before jumping into it.  If you are now in a Engineer unit,  you should be asking around and finding out what they do.  

*edited after clarification*


----------



## Soldierup

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should really think this through before going ahead with it - if that is your decision.
> 
> 
> Well the whole situation isn't anything that will look favorable for you..   you joined as Infantry,  but then OT'd to Engineer and are now wanting to OT back into Infantry all before going on a BMQ course(or have you gone on it?)
> 
> Perhaps you should have researched the Engineer trade before jumping ship and OT'ing into it.


I did do a bit of research on the trade, I am currently on a BMQ course now and when I switched over there were parts of my application I had to redo(now mind you all this was done before my app reached the CFRC), they said it was as if I never applied to Infantry in the first place.


----------



## MikeL

Ack

*You applied for the Reserves originally wanting Infantry.
*Unit was full,  so you were told you can look at other units/trades.
*You picked Engineer and are now in a Engineer unit.
*Now you are considering going Infantry,  because you feel Engineer may not be what you want to do.
*Currently on a BMQ course.


----------



## Soldierup

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Ack
> 
> *You applied for the Reserves originally wanting Infantry.
> *Unit was full,  so you were told you can look at other units/trades.
> *You picked Engineer and are now in a Engineer unit.
> *Now you are considering going Infantry,  because you feel Engineer may not be what you want to do.
> *Currently on a BMQ course.


That's my situation in a nutshell.


----------



## MikeL

This thread may answer your question regarding what Engineers do on Operation(specifically Afghanistan combat mission)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108884/post-1199592.html#msg1199592


----------



## Soldierup

So in regards to the Afghanistan Operation Combat Engineers are applied as a specialty to an Infantry section?,So could an Engineer section be applied on a combat mission exclusively operating around them other than Route Recce? or are combat missions oriented around regular foot patrols and offensive-led operations intent on disrupting enemy operations left to the Infantry with the potential of Engineer support?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Soldierup said:
			
		

> So in regards to the Afghanistan Operation Combat Engineers are applied as a specialty to an Infantry section?,So could an Engineer section be applied on a combat mission exclusively operating around them other than Route Recce? or are combat missions oriented around regular foot patrols and offensive-led operations intent on disrupting enemy operations left to the Infantry with the potential of Engineer support?



Yes.


----------



## Soldierup

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yes.


What about recce behind enemy lines?


----------



## yakherder

Take what I say with a grain of salt because I'm commenting from the perspective of an American soldier, and things might be slightly different...

But from what I can see, what in the the Canadian forces they call a combat engineer is an extremely broad field that covers what in the U.S. is divided into many different specialties.  Thus, you could be assigned to anything from a non-combat support unit purifying water with infantry or military police taking care of all of your security needs, or a front line infantry unit acting as a rifleman most of the time, stopping occasionally to blow up an obstacle in the path of an invasion force.

It seems to me to be a very versatile profession with the potential to be extremely interesting depending on who you're attached to in any given deployment or mission.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Soldierup said:
			
		

> What about recce behind enemy lines?



Anywhere outside Canada is behind enemy lines.


----------



## Soldierup

Let me be alittle more precise. Would the Engineer section go into an area lets say to observe enemy presence in the camp and then plan their attack?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Mostly they sit in the rear designing ever more cunning ways to get the soft caramel centre into the caramilk bars.


----------



## yakherder

Soldierup said:
			
		

> Let me be alittle more precise. Would the Engineer section go into an area lets say to observe enemy presence in the camp and then plan their attack?



Scouts or SF might very well desire to have an engineer with them to consult for such purposes, but that's not to say there is a significant chance of it happening and, if it did, they'd probably want an officer or at the very least a senior NCO who would then delegate what he/she saw and planned in the form of a mission.


----------



## Soldierup

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Mostly they sit in the rear designing ever more cunning ways to get the soft caramel centre into the caramilk bars.


Would this cunning role be combined with a regular recce task, and would they then carry out said "dismounted operation" or would it be left to the Infantry?


----------



## Maple1eaf

If your interested in recce you could always go the Armored Recce route ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

What They Do
 Combat Engineers are members of the Military Engineer branch of the Canadian Forces. Their job is to ensure that friendly troops can live, move and fight on the battlefield, and deny the same abilities to enemy troops. They also perform duties in aid of the civil power and civil authority; participate in peace-support operations; perform construction and maintenance tasks in support of the CF and other government organizations; drive and operate vehicles and equipment in support of Engineer Operations; and maintain field installations and facilities.

Combat Engineers have the following primary duties:
 • Construct and maintain roads, airfields, heliports, bridges, causeways, rafts, permanent and temporary buildings;
• Construct field defences and obstacles;
• Provide drinking water by testing, purifying and filtering local supplies and by constructing local distribution systems;
• Detect and dispose of mines, booby traps and bulk explosives;
• Deny mobility to the enemy on the battlefield by demolishing roads and bridges, and laying minefields and booby traps;
• Maintain and operate engineering equipment, including weapons, vehicles, heavy equipment and supplies;
• Provide engineer communications on the battlefield; and
• When necessary, fight as infantry (includes use of personal weapons, reconnaissance and section-level tactics).
------------------------------------------

Overview
 Not afraid of challenges? As an infantry soldier you are the Army’s primary war-fighters and at the core of the Combat Arms team. You are responsible for closing with and destroying the enemy. 

What They Do
 Each Infantry Soldier belongs to one of the Infantry regiments of the Canadian Army, some of which bear battle honours more than a century old. As the Army’s primary war-fighters and the core of the Combat Arms team, Infantry Soldiers are responsible for closing with and destroying the enemy. Supported by the Artillery, regiments of Armour and the Combat Engineers, Infantry Soldiers are capable of operating anywhere in the world in any environment — Arctic tundra, mountains, jungle or desert — and in any combination of arms, including airmobile and amphibious operations.

Infantry Soldiers have the following primary duties:
 • Expertly operate and maintain a wide range of personal and section-level weapons, including rifle (with and without bayonet), hand-grenades, light, medium and heavy machine-guns; and anti-tank weapons;
• Use sophisticated equipment for field communications, navigation and night-vision surveillance;
• Inspect and maintain weapon systems, vehicles and equipment (including clothing, survival gear and personal defensive equipment);
• Participate in airborne operations;
• Operate with support elements such as fighter aircraft, tactical helicopters (troop-carrying and reconnaissance) and artillery;
• Engage in unarmed combat; and
•Employ fieldcraft and battle procedures including camouflage and concealment, patrol, assault, defence, and escape-and-evasion tactics.


----------



## Soldierup

Maple1eaf said:
			
		

> If your interested in recce you could always go the Armored Recce route ;D


We dont have an armored reserve unit here.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maple1eaf said:
			
		

> If your interested in recce you could always go the Armoured Recce route ;D



FTFY.

Engineers have their own recce, as does Arty, and Inf as well.  _What_ they recce, _why_ they recce it and _who_ they recce it for are the differences.

Lets not present a myopic view that only D Sqn does the recce task.


----------



## Soldierup

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> FTFY.
> 
> Engineers have their own recce, as does Arty, and Inf as well.  _What_ they recce, _why_ they recce it and _who_ they recce it for are the differences.
> 
> Lets not present a myopic view that only D Sqn does the recce task.


If a section of Engineers are given an Infantry tasking to "disrupt enemy operations" whatever the operation may be, would Engineers to Infantry Recce prior to attack if it is them conducting said attack?


----------



## MikeL

From what I have seen overseas

Engineers do not conduct offensive operations on their own,  or recce enemy positions.

The ones that work with the Infantry are attached to a Infantry Platoon / Combat Team(organization formed around a Infantry Rifle Company).  They will go out on patrol with the Infantry and deal with IEDs,  breaching, etc as required.  When not doing something Engineer specific they are essentially rifleman.  


On some of the convoys I was in we had engineers along with us.  We would stop at certain points and the Engineers would dismount and search for IEDs,  when they give the clear they would mount back up and we would carry on.  I believe they were always part of the Battle Group QRF as well.


Some Engineers also did construction tasks,  etc


----------



## Soldierup

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> From what I have seen overseas
> 
> Engineers do not conduct offensive operations on their own,  or recce enemy positions.
> 
> The ones that work with the Infantry are attached to a Infantry Platoon / Combat Team(organization formed around a Infantry Rifle Company).  They will go out on patrol with the Infantry and deal with IEDs,  breaching, etc as required.  When not doing something Engineer specific they are essentially rifleman.
> 
> 
> On some of the convoys I was in we had engineers along with us.  We would stop at certain points and the Engineers would dismount and search for IEDs,  when they give the clear they would mount back up and we would carry on.  I believe they were always part of the Battle Group QRF as well.
> 
> 
> Some Engineers also did construction tasks,  etc


Quick Reaction Force. what are some of the taskings of an Engineer in a QRF? And what your trying to say is if I want to do those kinds of operations including Pathfinder I should consider Infantry if I can get the CT?


----------



## MikeL

Soldierup said:
			
		

> Quick Reaction Force. what are some of the taskings of an Engineer in a QRF? And what your trying to say is if I want to do those kinds of operations including Pathfinder I should consider Infantry if I can get the CT?



I'd have to check when I am at work,  too find out if Combat Engineers can attend the Patrol Pathfinder course.  No idea how many Engineers get the chance to attend that course though(if they can attend it).  No guarantee you will get that course,  even as a Infantryman. As a Reservist.. unless you are a Infantryman with the QoR(not even sure about that) don't count on ever seeing a Pathfinder course.  AFAIK it is mainly loaded with Regular Force Soldiers.


There is some Engineers on the board who I'm sure have either been part of the QRF or know people who have been and can give you a better idea of what they typically did.  But,  essentially they were part of the QRF to do Engineer things as required.


----------



## Kat Stevens

As a reservist you have as much chance at a pathfinder course as an engineer as you would an infanteer.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Reality Dose:  Don't expect, or base your decision on OTing in the PRes from CmbT Engineer to Infantry, based on all of this high speed/low drag stuff you've heard about, read about, etc.

You'd likely be doing exceptional if you get to the Recce Patrolman crse in the PRes, let alone Basic Para, Pathfinder, etc.  I am not confident you understand the level of training and ability courses like Pathfinder require.  Physically and otherwise.


----------



## Soldierup

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Reality Dose:  Don't expect, or base your decision on OTing in the PRes from CmbT Engineer to Infantry, based on all of this high speed/low drag stuff you've heard about, read about, etc.
> 
> You'd likely be doing exceptional if you get to the Recce Patrolman crse in the PRes, let alone Basic Para, Pathfinder, etc.  I am not confident you understand the level of training and ability courses like Pathfinder require.  Physically and otherwise.


I recognize and understand these courses are a true privilege and a challenge. But what do you mean by "high speed low drag stuff"?


----------



## Kat Stevens

He means all the snake eating super soldier COD stuff you want to do.


----------



## Soldierup

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> He means all the snake eating super soldier COD stuff you want to do.


Sweet. I love eating raw Snakes and COD i'll look into that CT to Infantry! 
But would the Engineers happen to do any of this Snake eating Infantry stuff on a field exercise?


----------



## Jarnhamar

Yes

Combat diver
You received beach heads, silently take down sentries and even plant explosives

MIND BLOWN


----------



## Soldierup

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Yes
> 
> Combat diver
> You received beach heads, silently take down sentries and even plant explosives
> 
> MIND BLOWN


:O Wowzers.
Perhaps I should be looking into Infantry AFTER spending time as a Combat Engineer,but don't Infantry operate amphibious boat craft as well?


----------



## Soldierup

And on a side note if I were to get a CT, would it be best done before my QL3 course?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

OK, first things first.

CT = Component Transfer.  That means moving from one component of the CF to another, eg the Reserve to the Regular, Reg to Reserve, Reg or Pres to Supp Reserve.

OT = Occupational Transfer, also referred to as 'remustering'.  That means changing trades in whichever component you are in.  (what you are talking about).

I think you should talk to your BMQ staff or Section Commander if you really want to do this OT to Infantry that bad.  I also think you are basing it on doing alot of things that you may end up never doing/false sense of what your initial 3-4 years in the PRes Infantry will have you doing.

Remember, you can APPLY for an OT, but you may not get it.  Just to get you started, the regulations for remustering (OT) as a NCM in the PRes are found in CFAO 49-11.   (CFAO = Canadian Forces Administrative Order, not avail on the Internet).


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Combat Divers (a job only Combat Engineers get to do)

Canadian Engineers in Afghanistan Youtube search

5 CER video, helicopter insertion and foot patrol

Truth Duty Valour, Pathfinders Part 1 and Part 2.


----------



## Soldierup

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Combat Divers (a job only Combat Engineers get to do)
> 
> Canadian Engineers in Afghanistan Youtube search
> 
> 5 CER video, helicopter insertion and foot patrol
> 
> Truth Duty Valour, Pathfinders Part 1 and Part 2.


So if an Engineer were lucky enough to become Pathfinder trained could the Engineer be called upon to perform his Pathfinder duties?


----------



## Journeyman

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Combat Divers (a job only Combat Engineers get to do), _etc_....


Sweet.  Be the voice of reason, highlighting a false sense of initial Infantry options....then post links to Combat Divers and Pathfinders -- two courses likely awash with QL3 Thumperheads.    ;D



Initial Poster:  so there's no confusion, that last bit was sarcasm.  I guarantee...100%....that you will NEVER get a Dive or Pathfinder course as a brand new Reservist.  Never.  So don't use it as a planning consideration.


----------



## Soldierup

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sweet.  Be the voice of reason, highlighting a false sense of initial Infantry options....then post links to Combat Divers and Pathfinders -- two courses likely awash with QL3 Thumperheads.    ;D
> 
> 
> 
> Initial Poster:  so there's no confusion, that last bit was sarcasm.  I guarantee...100%....that you will NEVER get a Dive or Pathfinder course as a brand new Reservist.  Never.  So don't use it as a planning consideration.


I hadent intended on it I already started that I DO understand these specialty courses can be hard to get on.
What I'm asking is if I EVER get said training as a Pathfinder in the Engineers will I ever be called upon to use it?


----------



## Scott

Soldierup said:
			
		

> What I'm asking is if I EVER get said training as a Pathfinder in the Engineers will I ever be called upon to use it?



How long is a piece of string?

I'll put it to you this way: IF you get said training you have a better chance of being called on to use it than if you do not get said training. 
I don't think it gets any simpler.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Soldierup,

what you need to do is talk to some of the soldiers in your Engineer Regiment right now, and ask them what they *actually do on exercises*. Find out where the training emphasis is during the training year to understand what training *you will likely be doing*, rather than basing your decision on what individual engineers _might find themselves doing on operations_.

At the same time, talk to soldiers in your local infantry unit. Ask them the same questions. 

Do not base your decision on the colourful recruiting descriptions of the trades, or on how sexy the specialist courses and potential tasks in each trade sound. In each trade, as in every other trade, for each soldier that gets those courses and opportunities, there's another ten (or hundred) spending their time driving, digging, freezing in a hole in the ground, (or whatever the normal daily tasks are for that trade) and wishing they had a better idea of the chances of those opportunities before they signed on.

It's easy to be carried away by the ideal image of a trade, both in foresight and in hindsight, the reality at the time can be very different.


----------



## Journeyman

Soldierup said:
			
		

> What I'm asking is if I EVER get said training as a Pathfinder in the Engineers will I ever be called upon to use it?


A perfectly valid question, given the tenuous nature of that "if."  

I too spend an inordinate amount of time wondering, IF I got a unicorn would I be allowed to ride it on exercises.   :nod:


----------



## Jarnhamar

Soldierup said:
			
		

> What I'm asking is if I EVER get said training as a Pathfinder in the Engineers will I ever be called upon to use it?



You're starting to get silly. Why would the military spend thousands of dollars to put you on a course that you would never be in a position to use?

If you want courses like this transfer to the regular force.
If you want to transfer to the regular force go onto the CFRC website and start your paperwork for it today.
If you can't decide on Infantry or Engineer then flip a coin.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sweet.  Be the voice of reason, highlighting a false sense of initial Infantry options....then post links to Combat Divers and Pathfinders -- two courses likely awash with QL3 Thumperheads.    ;D



Hopefully the desired effect took hold, where the OP would take a look at the level of trg he is in now....watch the TDV stuff, and see the HUGE gap in ability and then...reality would pop into his thoughts and say....'whoa...dude.  We are like NOT at that level...or close.  Hell we can't even SEE that level on the horion...".

 ;D

The other stuff was so the OP can shake this idea that Cmbt Engineers 'have boring tasks/jobs', which IMO isn't the case.

Maybe I was too subtle??  OP...if I can quote a line from _Titanic_   "...you're as likely to have angels fly out your arse as you are to...."


----------



## Journeyman

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ... see the HUGE gap in ability and then...reality would pop into his thoughts .....


I see your ploy getting trumped by Dunning-Kruger -- the patron saint of Recruiting threads.   >


----------



## Eye In The Sky

_That_ was rich.  MP inbound.


----------



## Soldierup

Maybe I went somewhere just on the basis of "if you go here you can get on a BMQ course because its in all honesty all this crazy over advertised "high speed low drag" I wanted a job in the combat arms but I didn't want to go into a trade consisted of building bridges and FOB's Combat Diving looks really cool but you cant pick a job based on a specialty.


----------



## MikeL

Soldierup,  Engineers do more then just building bridges and FOBs, etc.  It is a task they can get,  but there are other roles as well.  I'm sure there are jobs within the Infantry you feel would be boring as well. 


Currently you are with the Engineers,  if I were you I would make the best out of it and get your time in there.  Also,  as mentioned earlier,  talk to the people in your unit and see what they do on exercise, etc.  Would give you a much better picture of what you actually would be doing.  If you know people in the Infantry you can ask what they do in their unit as well.   

Instead of just joining the first unit that had a open spot,  you probably should have asked a few questions and gotten a better picture of what the different units do.  I'm hoping you've learned a bit from this.


----------



## Soldierup

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Soldierup,  Engineers do more then just building bridges and FOBs, etc.  It is a task they can get,  but there are other roles as well.  I'm sure there are jobs within the Infantry you feel would be boring as well.
> 
> 
> Currently you are with the Engineers,  if I were you I would make the best out of it and get your time in there.  Also,  as mentioned earlier,  talk to the people in your unit and see what they do on exercise, etc.  Would give you a much better picture of what you actually would be doing.  If you know people in the Infantry you can ask what they do in their unit as well.
> 
> Instead of just joining the first unit that had a open spot,  you probably should have asked a few questions and gotten a better picture of what the different units do.  I'm hoping you've learned a bit from this.


Deffinetly a few lessons learned here, not a good situation to be in a position and question it. I will ask a few people in both units what they do on field exercise.


----------



## Towards_the_gap

Soldierup said:
			
		

> I didn't want to go into a trade consisted of building bridges and FOB's



Oh so I must be in the wrong trade then, I went through a heck of a lot of combat as an engineer last tour, in fact on the last 3 tours, and not once did I build a bridge or a FOB. I must be wearing the wrong capbadge then. :

Perhaps before you go submitting OT paperwork you should actually learn what it is your current trade does.


----------



## Soldierup

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Oh so I must be in the wrong trade then, I went through a heck of a lot of combat as an engineer last tour, in fact on the last 3 tours, and not once did I build a bridge or a FOB. I must be wearing the wrong capbadge then. :
> 
> Perhaps before you go submitting OT paperwork you should actually learn what it is your current trade does.


Well now a GREAT time to learn. Why don't you tell me what you did on your last tour.


----------



## PanaEng

Soldierup, what unit are you in? don't want to put you on the spot but I might be able to tell you who to talk to - if you are in Ottawa, talk to me - I don't care where you end up going as long as you are happy with it and you are a productive member of your unit and contribute to the reserve community in your area and the Army.
(send me a PM with your email)

Unless you are in Toronto and can join the Queens Own Rifles (QOR) the chances of getting PPF are almost like winning the lottery (as a reservist)
The chances of getting a Combat diver course as a reservist are almost that low (I have seen one, maybe 2)


----------



## MisterE

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Mostly they sit in the rear designing ever more cunning ways to get the soft caramel centre into the caramilk bars.



That is the best answer I have ever heard!  :rofl:


----------



## Teager

If you have some questions please feel free to msg me. I am a Combat engineer reservist with a tour. The things you want to do are more geared towards reg force. Don't expect anything to great especially with budget cut backs abound. 

As for specialty things for Engineers we get the chance to branch off into things such as EOD, Water purification, and heavy equipment.

I'll tell you this right off the bat many of the heavy equipment operaters on my tour drove there dozers directly into combat (not purposly)

Think about this though. The things you learn as a combat engineer are much more transferable into the civie world versus infantry not knocking infantry just saying.


----------

