# Reservist probed for 'racist activity' as police prepare for white pride rally



## Haggis (17 Mar 2011)

This from the Calagry herald shared with the usual disclaimer.



> As Calgary police gear up to monitor a white pride rally on Saturday, a Winnipeg-based teenage Canadian Forces member who’s apparently intending to attend the event is being investigated by the military over “serious allegations of racist activity.”
> 
> Capt. Karina Holder of the Canadian Forces Military Police said a probe was launched after the allegations came to light this week.
> 
> ...


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## brihard (17 Mar 2011)

If this is accurate, kick the kid out.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Mar 2011)

Let's let the investigation run it's course before we begin making any sort of judgements.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## brihard (17 Mar 2011)

Hence "if this is accurate".

I will say more generally that any such conduct by a CF member is, in my mind, inexcusable and should result in a briskly processed release. If this kid turns out to fall in that category, well, tough cookies.


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## Haggis (17 Mar 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Let's let the investigation run it's course before we begin making any sort of judgements.



Where's the fun in that??


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Hence "if this is accurate".
> 
> I will say more generally that any such conduct by a CF member is, in my mind, inexcusable and should result in a briskly processed release. If this kid turns out to fall in that category, well, tough cookies.


I have to agree. Mind you, we all held pre conceived notions when we were that age, and when we expressed them openly we were brisquely told to smarten up. Maybe all he needs is a good old fashioned session of "counselling". Maybe C & P would help.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> .... we all held pre conceived notions when we were that age, and when we expressed them openly we were brisquely told to smarten up. Maybe all he needs is a good old fashioned session of "counselling". Maybe C & P would help.


You're right about how young people were (not that much different than now, I guess), but the biggest difference is that now, they have all sorts of new ways to reach broader audiences with their folly.  Is it just me, or do a lot of people out there who've grown up with social media just not realize how *PUBLIC* it is?


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## forgiven (17 Mar 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ......of people out there who've grown up with social media just not realize how *PUBLIC* it is?



I could not agree more.  That is one of the reason I don't use facebook anymore, it is creepy.


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## nuclearzombies (17 Mar 2011)

This monday will be fun for sure. I have attended the March 21 rally since '07, and I hope the nazis show up this year so we can let them know their filth isnt weclome. Oddly, this is not the first time a CF member has been accused of such. A group called Anti-Racist Canada (a better cut of folks than those commie ARA types), has profiled another CF member accused of making racist internet postings on Stormfront, the white nationalist forum.


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2011)

nuclearzombies said:
			
		

> This monday will be fun for sure. I have attended the March 21 rally since '07, and I hope the nazis show up this year so we can let them know their filth isnt weclome. Oddly, this is not the first time a CF member has been accused of such. A group called Anti-Racist Canada (a better cut of folks than those commie ARA types), has profiled another CF member accused of making racist internet postings on Stormfront, the white nationalist forum.



You may want to rethink attending. These events can get out of hand very quickly, and it doesn't matter why you're there.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Mar 2011)

You are correct Jim. Several members of the unit got involved wearing civilian attire "defending" the now closed Winnipeg US Counsel office in 83/84. Seems like they formed a human barricade at the door, barring the peaceful peace protesters. Police were called.

One of those guys is currently serving as a RCR Sgt and his brother is an Int Capt. 

Awful Werry, the CO, and the RSM had our hands full with the inquiries, from up high and the media swarm.

Fifty years have gone by, therefore let it be said the unit received a "thank-you" hand delivered from an official source south of Winnipeg.


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2011)

In my opinion members of the CF should NOT involve themselves in political activity of any sort. We are loyal to the country only, and not any political party or cause.
IF you disagree that strongly with government positions, you can take your release and disagree more publicly. We've been down this road before, so I will shut up now!!


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## multihobbist (17 Mar 2011)

it upsets me that my old fireteam partner was accused for public racial comments and having spending 2 month with him, i know he is in fact a white supremist. No action was taken against him except a media awareness class.
Now he works at the BHQ.

I once loosely spoke out(asked a question to conservative representatives at a tour across Canada) at a political conference months ago and it took them less than 10 minutes find out that I'm in the CF and my CoC e-mailed me within that 10 mintues to shut up.
Digital world is scary.


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## Container (17 Mar 2011)

Iffff Im reading your post correctly- you think that you were hard done by because you used an inappropriate forum to ask questions that put the CF in a negative light?


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## multihobbist (17 Mar 2011)

well it wasn't even a forum, it was a conference at school and my question was verbally asked, and all I stated after was my full name


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## Container (17 Mar 2011)

Okay without derailing the thread further- in my opinion, which is worth nothing, it was entirely appropriate for your COC to tell you to be quiet. It is inappropriate for someone to ask questions of political leaders in public about the CF not treating "white supremists" seriously enough (which of course is your opinion).

There is a time and a place for questioning things like that. Doing it in front of your school- about something that in reality you wouldnt be completely privy to ("only getting a media awareness class"). Thats not fighting the good fight. Thats making the CF look like back water fools in front of people who have no idea that its not a rampant problem and its a relatively isolated case.

Further to that- what the hell would the politician be able to do for you? I'd love to hear how you phrased that question. 

"I work for the government- my partner was a racist and when he was caught all he got was a media awareness class. What is your government going to do to stamp out all the racists in the CF?"


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## ballz (17 Mar 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> Iffff Im reading your post correctly- you think that you were hard done by because you used an inappropriate forum to ask questions that put the CF in a negative light?



He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."

I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.

Also, I'm not a white supremicist, nor would I attend a "white pride" parade, I think it's quite stupid, just like I think a black pride parade is stupid. But I am a bit offended that there are gay pride parades, black pride parades, "insert random thing here" parades, but a white pride parade is expected to be met with violence. 

I can't speak on the Hitler and Mussolini quotes, but a CF member shouldn't get in trouble for attending a white pride parade if a CF member isn't going to get in trouble for attending a black pride parade, and I'm quite sure we recently authorized members to attend a gay pride parade in uniform.

EDIT: Was not under the impression that multihobbiest meant his questions were about white supremacy in the CF and his fireteam partner... Might be the green beers kickin in.


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## Container (17 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."



If everyone knows what you do and they know its your reference its the same thing. We're not talking about asking about the new city hydro plan- this is a question that potentially casts a negative light on the CF as a whole. Questions like that need to framed carefully and not tossed about "loosely". What your question insinuates can cause more damage than the "problem" you are trying to fix.

Perhaps its my own green beers.  :st.patty:


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## ballz (17 Mar 2011)

That's so awesome I never noticed that leprechaun before ;D

I wasn't even thinking that he asked a question about his fireteam partner and whatnot. 

And yes I agree "if everyone knows what you do," which is why I keep my other secret life a secret at university... plus I had run-ins with a few hippies in first year, so I learned from that... but so did they :threat:


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## Infanteer (17 Mar 2011)

multihobbist said:
			
		

> having spending 2 month with him, i know he is in fact a white supremist. No action was taken against him except a media awareness class.



If I recall correctly, you sign a document acknowledging that belonging to a hate group, although protected under the Charter, is not extended to the CF and is grounds for a release.  Your friend's days in uniform may be numbered.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Mar 2011)

This is exactly what we're talking about. You guys haven't even gotten enough information from each other, or are misunderstanding each other, to discuss your own posts and the result is that in the first page, the thread is a train wreck.

Congratulations :facepalm:

Milnet.ca Staff

Sorry Infanteer, you got above me.


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."
> 
> I *don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os.* Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.
> I can't speak on the Hitler and Mussolini quotes, but a CF member shouldn't get in trouble for attending a white pride parade if a CF member isn't going to get in trouble for attending a black pride parade, and I'm quite sure we recently authorized members to attend a gay pride parade in uniform.



I do. We have all sworn oaths. In my mind that means we abstain from making political comment.  I reckon though I should do that myself.


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## ballz (17 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I do. We have all sworn oaths. In my mind that means we abstain from making political comment.  I reckon though I should do that myself.



Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.

A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.


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## George Wallace (17 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.
> 
> A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.



That is a very thin line that you have to take care not to cross.


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## multihobbist (17 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> ...



Well you're very correct about miscommunication.
I had two sentences separate because they were quite unrelated to eachother. My question was completely related to the CF. It was regarding reduced tax vs increasing public services.

I'm trying to point out the fact that it's sensitive what you say to who and where as far as you're a CF member because the words spread pretty fast, and a lot of times it changes due to miscommunication.


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## RubberTree (17 Mar 2011)

Perhaps oddly, I find it encouraging that the article made the news. If the subject was Joe Blow, a fast food chain employee, there would be no story. The only reason this even made print is that this young man has presented himself as both a CF member and (perhaps) a racist...an obvious exception to the general way that CF members are viewed by both the media and the general public. 
Now if charges are laid or a punishment imposed and that too were to be published, I would be doubly encouraged.
RT


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## nuclearzombies (17 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You may want to rethink attending. These events can get out of hand very quickly, and it doesn't matter why you're there.


It did in fact become violent in '09 - there was somwhat of a running street fight between 40-50 boneheads, and hundreds of angry protesters. I have to compliment the Calgary Police Service  for their professional response, they ultimately comandeered a Calgary Transit bus to evacuate the boneheads. 
What really shocked me is how quickly the crowd turned ugly, considering how happy the earlier part of the rally seemed. There were people throwing things like cans of beans, eggs, a brick even! The Anti Racist Action people were instigating much of the fighting, and most of them wore balaclavas which rubbed me the wrong way. I dont believe in wearing a disguise in a public venue. 

Don't worry, I tend to stay where I can beat it if I have to. And I certainly won't be causing any trouble myself, I'm a law abiding type these days


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## The Bread Guy (17 Mar 2011)

For the record, someone Postmedia News believes to be the individual in question is quoted denying the allegations:


> “A Winnipeg teenage military reservist under investigation by the Canadian Forces says allegations of racist activity levied against him aren't true.  The 17-year-old also said while he'd considered attending the white pride march in Calgary Saturday to watch — not participate — he cancelled the plans weeks ago.  The teenager says while he is proud of his German-Ukrainian heritage, he does not believe in white supremacy.  "I do not believe the white race is the master race. I do not believe any races are inferior. I don't want any harm to happen to anyone," he said.  The teenager said he upholds all military values. "I don't care if you're homosexual, Asian, Muslim — we're all there for the same reason, and that's the defence of Canada." …. The teenager said he's since taken down postings on his Facebook page, including quotes from Hitler and Mussolini.  He said he put them up because he sees them as "powerful," in the sense of being willing to stand up and fight for beliefs.  "I don't want to give the wrong impression," he said. "Just because an evil person did and said many evil things, does not mean everything he said was wrong."  He said he'd previously posted on a white supremacist forum, but doesn't belong to any such groups and has since "matured" in his beliefs ….


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## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.
> 
> A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.



Tell that to the young soldier who said that the Airborne shouldn't have been disbanded. He was charged and found guilty.

What profession are you in anyways ballz? Grow up. You're in the PROFESSION of ARMS. Take your release and go protest.


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## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

I'm seeing a problem here...

*If* the allegations against the individual are true, ethical and moral considerations aside, if he's a reservist, and this is on his own time, what's he guilty of?

There's a very clearly defined set of circumstances where the individual is subject to the NDA, and orders issued under the authority of the NDA. 

If you're not subject to the NDA, you can't violate the NDA.

As an example, a while back, the RSM of a unit phoned one of it's members at home, and demanded they come to work. The member pretty much told the RSM to shove it (Although in politer words). The RSM was livid, and wanted the member charged with insubordination. The member, however, at the time, not subject to the NDA, as such, no insubordination was commited. The RSM may not have liked the individual much after that, but still, not subject to the NDA, can't violate it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly in favor of giving the flick to any member who spends their weekends at a white pride rally, regardless of status of service, I'm just wondering if there would be authority to do so. 

Quite frankly, if there was authority to do so, I'd be quite happy with giving the entire body of the rally the flick out of the country into the sea.


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Mar 2011)

He doesn't have to violate the NDA.  He doesn't have to be charged.  He can be adminstratively separated from the CF.

All hypothetically of course, because these are still allegations.


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## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> He doesn't have to violate the NDA.  He doesn't have to be charged.  He can be adminstratively separated from the CF.



Still need justification to administratively release somone. 

If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to be argumentative, legitimately wondering here, how would an individuals chain of command go about dealing with somthing like this? It's well above me to deal with these sort of things, but I'm curious, based on a few situations I've seen in the past. If the allegations are true, or if a similar situation were to pop up, would hate to see either corrective action for somthing that's morally/ethically wrong successfully redressed because it was legally ok.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Mar 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Still need justification to administratively release somone.
> 
> If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, not trying to be argumentative, legitimately wondering here, how would an individuals chain of command go about dealing with somthing like this? It's well above me to deal with these sort of things, but I'm curious, based on a few situations I've seen in the past. If the allegations are true, or if a similar situation were to pop up, would hate to see either corrective action for somthing that's morally/ethically wrong successfully redressed because it was legally ok.



QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 15
Release

5 (F) Unsuitable for Further Service.

Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces.


This pretty much says it all.  He may fall under these release conditions, if he is guilty of the alleged accusations.

dileas

tess


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## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

Works for me.

I knew what a 5(f) release was, and I could give you a few examples of where it could/has been used, never paid attention to the actual word before. "behaviours" seems like it's the key word there.


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## McG (18 Mar 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?


Some individuals have the mistaken belief that Class A reservists can do whatever they want and get away with it when not subject to the NDA.  That is not true - there is a vast range of policies and directives on conduct (mostly under the DAOD 5019 series) that, if violated even as a Class A while not subject to the NDA, can see a member release from the CF.  Alcohol misconduct, drugs, harasment prevention, sexual misconduct and many other policies all can apply to the Class A reservist while not subject to the NDA.


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## jwtg (18 Mar 2011)

Policy aside, if these allegations are true, then what is this guy doing in the CF?

Discrimination, oppression, genocide, subjugation, tyranny, racial intolerance...these are the kinds of things the CF fights against.  What kind of work does he think he's doing?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Reservist+denies+racist+conduct/4461335/story.html

From above article...


> The teenager said he's since taken down postings on his Facebook page, including quotes from Hitler and Mussolini.
> 
> He said he put them up because he sees them as "powerful," in the sense of being willing to stand up and fight for beliefs.
> 
> "I don't want to give the wrong impression," he said. "Just because an evil person did and said many evil things does not mean everything he said was wrong."



I'm not about to go posting quotes from Satan, the KKK, Nero, or any other tyrant or evil person/group in the history of the world.  That just gives credit to what they said or did.

Quoting them and calling them 'powerful' is exactly the kind of attitude/behaviour that allowed people like Hitler to rise to power in the first place.
Sure, innocent until proven guilty...but things aren't looking good.  It would *seem* that this guy doesn't stand for the same things the CF does.  

Go be a white supremacist, or be a soldier.  I don't believe the 2 can co-exist in one person.  One contradicts the other.

EDIT to add: I realize the above quote was included earlier in the thread- I just wanted to address this part.


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## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

MCG said:
			
		

> Some individuals have the mistaken belief that Class A reservists can do whatever they want and get away with it when not subject to the NDA.  That is not true - there is a vast range of policies and directives on conduct (mostly under the DAOD 5019 series) that, if violated even as a Class A while not subject to the NDA, can see a member release from the CF.  Alcohol misconduct, drugs, harasment prevention, sexual misconduct and many other policies all can apply to the Class A reservist while not subject to the NDA.



I don't think I've ever personally seen an example where somone was disciplined or released for somthing they've done contrary to the NDA, while not subject to the NDA.

I can think of multiple examples where a Class A reservists was disciplined or released either either for violating the NDA while subject to the NDA, or for things done while not subject to the NDA, the reprecussions of which carried over to a point where they were subject to the NDA.

Again, this just me being curious here, where the authority comes from, as while, without getting I can think of at least one or two examples where an incident may not have been handled in a way that made any sense to observers.


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## SeaKingTacco (18 Mar 2011)

Sig Op,

You are either accidentally or deliberately confusing adminstrative and disciplinary action.   I have seen plenty of Class A reservists released administratively from the CF for stuff that they did while they were not subject to the NDA.  

You are 26 years old.  I have 26 years in the CF.  I would suggest that your time horizon in the CF is not yet long enough to have seen everything.  Even I would not make that claim.


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## nuclearzombies (18 Mar 2011)

jwtg said:
			
		

> Go be a white supremacist, or be a soldier.  I don't believe the 2 can co-exist in one person.  One contradicts the other.


Agree 200%

Oddly, and this comes as a result of direct experience with the local Nazi wannabes, and participating in mainstream community efforts aimed at addressing the problem;

- not only do many of them consider themselves soldiers, they also believe they are currently "at war"
- their internal hierarchy is based on a quasi-military system, and encourage members to get military training (esp. as reservists)
- many of them believe that the CF is largely sympathetic to their cause(s)

Don't ask me by what cockamamie logic some of these individuals operate, but these white natonalist/Nazi/whatever types have some pretty screwy ideas. What bothers me is the level of violence rising: Since 2006, the "Aryan Guard", now calling themselves "Aryan Terror Brigade/Blood&Honor28" (sounds charming doesn't it?) have been convicted or implicated in more than 3 dozen assaults, 1 attempted IED attack, 3 home invasions resulting in injuries, among the usual bevy of tickets and minor charges for idiocy. We've also had some teenage pregnancies, and a couple bizarre love triangles that would make Charlie Sheen blush. It's odd, because much of it is a bunch of drunken jackassery and would almost be amusing in another context. Then the same people chuck a molotov through a window, narrowly missng four small kids. What the hell kind of yahoo has that kind of disregard!?!?!?


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## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Sig Op,
> 
> You are either accidentally or deliberately confusing adminstrative and disciplinary action.   I have seen plenty of Class A reservists released administratively from the CF for stuff that they did while they were not subject to the NDA.
> 
> You are 26 years old.  I have 26 years in the CF.  I would suggest that your time horizon in the CF is not yet long enough to have seen everything.  Even I would not make that claim.



My mistake, I had no idea I had to achieve the status of "old fart" before I can wonder how rules and regulations I am from time to time subject to work.

I haven't seen everything, not by a long shot, just stating what I HAVE seen, with just shy of 10 years in the CF, I've seen my fair share of administrative releases of reservists. More to the point, I've seen several situations where I've wondered why somone WASN'T released, and I've always been curious why/why not the chain of command chose to make those decisions.

I was asking a question, a very legitimate question in this case. I was asking where the authority for the chain of command to deal with this sort of thing came from, when not subject to the NDA, and how an individuals chain of command would go about it. 

Administrative action or disciplinary action, it all needs justification, or it's not going to surive a redress. Tess mostly answered my question, with the wording of a 5(f) release.

Now, on the subject of disciplinary vs administrative action, would there be/could there be any authority for disciplinary action by the individuals chain of command?


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## the 48th regulator (18 Mar 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> My mistake, I had no idea I had to achieve the status of "old fart" before I can wonder how rules and regulations I am from time to time subject to work.
> 
> I haven't seen everything, not by a long shot, just stating what I HAVE seen, with just shy of 10 years in the CF, I've seen my fair share of administrative releases of reservists. More to the point, I've seen several situations where I've wondered why somone WASN'T released, and I've always been curious why/why not the chain of command chose to make those decisions.
> 
> ...



If the Media was able to find out that he served, then his posts on Facebook, along with any identification of being a serving member opens the door for him to at least be charged with,_ if the Allegations against him are true._

QR&Os: Volume II - Chapter 103
Service Offences

There is a myriad of offenses he can be charged with, if you read the QR&Os that I have linked to, but the all encompassing, and favourite one;

103.60 – CONDUCT TO THE PREJUDICE OF
GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE

(1) Section 129 of the National Defence Act


Read the attached link, as it states the whole kit and kaboodal what the chain of command may use against him,_ if the allegation are found to be true.

_

dileas

tess


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## ballz (18 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Tell that to the young soldier who said that the Airborne shouldn't have been disbanded. He was charged and found guilty.
> 
> What profession are you in anyways ballz? Grow up. You're in the PROFESSION of ARMS. Take your release and go protest.



You're comparison isn't even relevant. That's clearly in contradiction to the government and the CF.

I respect your opinion, and I realize it's based on more years of experience than I've got years of breathing. Sometimes a blanket rule would solve a lot of grey problems, and you might be able to enlighten me, and I'm even open to being convinced that it would be for the best in this case. But you certainly won't just by stamping your feet and tellng me to release. Really, what were you saying about growing up? 

For one thing, I already said I wouldn't encourage any CF members to go participating in protests. Clearly, I don't. But I'm not narrow-scoped enough to expect everybody abide by my own personal policies, or that everyone should.

So I'll take a raincheque on that release, and if you've got a probem with that, maybe you should seek changes to the offiicial polices so that they reflect your concern, because right now they don't, so you've got no place telling members to release for abiding by them, regardless of how you feel they *should* be.


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## jwtg (18 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> You're comparison isn't even relevant. That's clearly in contradiction to the government and the CF.


And racism/white supremacy/discrimination AREN'T in contradiction to the government and the CF?


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## Blackadder1916 (18 Mar 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I don't think I've ever personally seen an example where somone was disciplined or released for somthing they've done contrary to the NDA, while not subject to the NDA.



This may be just semantics, but  . . . .  The phrase "subject to the NDA" is often (mistakenly) used to refer to situations of this nature in determining if disciplinary actions can be taken against part-time members.  *Everyone in Canada* (with maybe the exception of accredited foreign diplomats) is subject to the provisions of the National Defence Act.  That piece of legislation is the legal basis for all most aspects of our national defence -- providing for the establishment of the government department responsible for that service, the raising and organization of military forces to accomplish the tasks necessary to defend our country, the recruiting of people to fill that military organization, the authority by which we pay, feed, cloth and pension those people, establishing restrictions on entering military property, the granting of authority to tell others what to do and  . . . among many, many other things provides the legal basis to take disciplinary action, which is in fact only one separate part of the NDA.  It would be more appropriate to say "subject to the Code of Service Discpline" when determining if the organization can take punitive action against a member.  A reservist is always subject to the NDA, otherwise how could he legally be enrolled, given a uniform and other equipment, be retained in the organization, be paid, accumulate credit towards his CD and on and on; however, he is not always subject to the CSD.


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## ballz (18 Mar 2011)

jwtg said:
			
		

> And racism/white supremacy/discrimination AREN'T in contradiction to the government and the CF?



We were talking about peaceful protests in general, not their causes.

I already made my feelings clear on this "white pride" "gay pride" "black pride" issue. It's all stupid on so many levels that it makes me dizzy.


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## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

Before we run this 17 year old out of town on a rail, let's cut him some slack.

He's SEVENTEEN. He can change. How many of us on here have not made errors in judgement?


----------



## jwtg (18 Mar 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> We were talking about peaceful protests in general, not their causes.
> 
> I already made my feelings clear on this "white pride" "gay pride" "black pride" issue. It's all stupid on so many levels that it makes me dizzy.



So was that guy who criticized the disbanding of the Airborne violent when he made his comments?  Or peaceful?

The cause is exactly what you were talking about.


----------



## jwtg (18 Mar 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Before we run this 17 year old out of town on a rail, let's cut him some slack.
> 
> He's SEVENTEEN. He can change. How many of us on here have not made errors in judgement?



Fair enough, in a way.
I mean, I made mistakes...but I was never a racist.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Mar 2011)

jwtg said:
			
		

> Fair enough, in a way.
> I mean, I made mistakes...but I was never a racist.



That's great, I'm glad you aren't racist. I knew plenty of people in rank who were.

Don't fall into the trap of kicking everyone out who violates policies. Its patently unfair and does not give the member a chance to correct shortcomings.


----------



## ballz (18 Mar 2011)

jwtg said:
			
		

> So was that guy who criticized the disbanding of the Airborne violent when he made his comments?  Or peaceful?
> 
> The cause is exactly what you were talking about.



I suggest you go back and read mine and MWO Seggie's exchanges before you start getting excited.

He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "CF Members shouldn't participate in *any* protests. Period." And I said, again, paraphrasing, "I don't see a problem with peaceful protests as long as they aren't contradicting/opposing the government or CF." 

There are two things there. "Peaceful" and "not in contradiction to/opposing the govenment and/or CF." MWO Seggie's example does not fit that criteria. It also doesn't fit in the protests/rallying criteria either, but what's the point in staying on track when we've got this far off already.

EDIT: For accuracy, this is what I'm referring to:


			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> In my opinion members of the CF should NOT involve themselves in political activity of any sort. We are loyal to the country only, and not any political party or cause.



2nd EDIT, for more accuracy:


			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.



I realize now I didn't specify "as long as it's not in contradiction/opposing the government/CF" in that one, but that's the point of not being in uniform and not identifying yourself as a CF member. That is all the written policy calls for IIRC.


----------



## Strike (18 Mar 2011)

All,

QR&O 19.14 is pretty specific:



> 19.14 – IMPROPER COMMENTS
> 
> (1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances). (15 June 2000)
> 
> ...



And then there's QR&O 19.36  (Only the relevant article is included)



> 19.36 – DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION
> 
> (2) Subject to article 19.375 (Communications to News Agencies), no officer or non-commissioned member shall without permission obtained under article 19.37 (Permission to Communicate Information):
> 
> (g) take part in public in a discussion relating to orders, regulations or instructions issued by the member’s superiors;



I'd say that it's pretty cut and dried.  It doesn't have to be anything against the Government or the Canadian Forces for the first order posted.  As for the second order, that covers the young man who asked why his fire team partner was still in.  Neither article says anything about being in uniform or identifying oneself as military.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Mar 2011)

I said at the beginining of the thread for people to watch how they conducted themselves in this thread.

Saying what should be done, _if the allegations are true_, does nothing to hide the intent or discolour the comment. You're still putting him on trial. Unfairly, as no one here knows the facts. Even the press, that you are relying on doesn't have the full story.

That hasn't stopped them coming here and watching the antics of this thread, looking for a quote or some other juicy tidbit to use. They've been here often to watch this goat rodeo.

I'll suggest that before someone says something that we'll all be sorry for, that the vast majority, if not all of you, go find something else to do until this develops a little further.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## chrisf (18 Mar 2011)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> This may be just semantics, but  . . . .



Not semantics, excellent point, the CSD is a distinct part of the NDA.


----------



## Newapplicant78 (18 Mar 2011)

I couldn't even make it through this full thread without feeling bewildered.


A young man openly admits to being racist. 
Now there is a debate as to his actions,  his punishment etc...

There was probably other comments that got me by the collar.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> Also, I'm not a white supremicist, nor would I attend a "white pride" parade, I think it's quite stupid, just like I think a black pride parade is stupid. But I am a bit offended that there are gay pride parades, black pride parades, "insert random thing here" parades, but a white pride parade is expected to be met with violence.
> 
> ...




1) This protest would have never ended* peacefully *
2) Wearing the uniform entails upholding the ideals of this country. Whoever may not been wearing the uniform this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair should stand as a reminder. *Disgraceful* It's was my reminder.
3) What would this youth do with a person of colour was his commanding officer?
4) There are no BLACK Pride parades we have cultural parades the celebrate our Caribbean culture which is made up of Africans,Caucasians,South Asians, Asians and Latino's.  It is a cultural celebrated by all. :nod: Mind you this young man was participating in a protest  :rage: and not celebration. 


As what is to happen to this youth perhaps re-education is in order or reprimand. I'm kinda rough around the edges as to what these guys actually believe in now a days. 
However, after tutoring my students (Muslims) and telling them we have to respect people for who they are I know this ideal  :facepalm:  is not unknown to me. 
People may not look, act or behave the way we think is "normal" but we live in a country that allows this type of freedom. We are not allowed to HATE (the only way to describe anti-racists HATERS)
However, there are people out there that will, and when they do we can only show them love. 
Love concurs all evils and when evil is confronted by love it does not know what to do. 
Confrontations of ignorance are only met by more ignorance and it's not always necessary to be By Any Means Necessary.  :threat:
I've gotta go work out now  :2c: :2c:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Mar 2011)

For the last time.

This is an open investigation by police agencies and the CF. This is no different than any other open case involving CF pers that we've had in the past. We won't talk about it until the investigation is complete.

If you want to talk generalities of policy, the NDA or anything else in relation to this type of incident, that's fine. Do it without defining specifics to an open case.

We won't comment on any specifics of the case or the person alleged of certain actions involved in this case until he is properly judged by the designated authorities.

Every person is innocent until proven guilty and sanctioned by the proper entity. That is not us. They are also allowed to have their case spoken to and defended in the proper venue where they can face their accusers. That is not here.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## nuclearzombies (20 Mar 2011)

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2011/03/19/17685181.html

Looks like the Calgary Police Service owned the show in Calgary on saturday..... I took MWO Seggie's suggestion and decied not to attend, true to fashion the ARA/anarchist types wore their silly masks and *tried* to manouver around police to start trouble......


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Mar 2011)

> One white-pride demonstrator, *who spoke under the condition of anonymity*, said accusations of racism and violence are “manufactured,” and he simply wants to be free to be proud of who he is.
> 
> “They can have black pride, Native pride, but you can’t have white pride,” he said.
> 
> “All I want is the right to be proud of my culture.”



Watch the video at the link provided by nuclearzombies.  Most of the "white pride" demonstrators wear bandannas covering their faces.  If they're so "proud" of who they are, why do they not show their faces?   :


----------



## Newapplicant78 (20 Mar 2011)

The right to be proud of culture...WHAT A JOKE

Where do you come from? I can count many celebrations/festival that celebrate culture. 
What they are demonstrating is HATE. I wish some of these folks would sit down with their parents/grand parents and figure out where they come from so they can feel like they belong somewhere. They all lack a sense of belonging. 
I know that when streams of slaves from America came across the border they were met with a government that tried to tighten(cut off) immigration to the slaves by law and since it was an election year the Bill never passed.   :nod:
Your breed is dying (HATERS) only 16 of them showed up not even showing their faces what cowards. (Thank you PMedMoe) But it goes to show you that there are still people like them out there only they are smarter and can use the system. Afro centric schools allowed in parts of Canada because it is law. Go Figure 8


----------



## vonGarvin (20 Mar 2011)

Black Betty said:
			
		

> Afro centric schools allowed in parts of Canada because it is law. Go Figure 8


This, for the life of me, I cannot fathom.  I suppose I will when Asian, European and other "groups" have their own schools.  Because what I think unites us as a citizenry best is dividing us by the very things against which we are supposed not to discriminate.


----------



## nuclearzombies (20 Mar 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Watch the video at the link provided by nuclearzombies.  Most of the "white pride" demonstrators wear bandannas covering their faces.  If they're so "proud" of who they are, why do they not show their faces?   :



The guy that made that statment (forgot his name) was convicted in '08, '09, and '10 (a hat trick!) for assault, all three on persons of ethnicity other than caucsian. The fat guy standing next to him is John Marleau, who threatened a Calgary Transit operator with a knife and ended up being tasered in front of a large crowd downtown during the morning rush. The funny thing is, disguising your face is fooling nobody. No doubt the CPS have a nice, thick file on them and the ARA/anarchists. That Jason Devine guy isn't much better, ask him sometime about how he hates our government, the CF, and pretty much anything tht does't conform to his cutesy Marxist-Leninist ideology. I knew Jason from high school, he was a leftist wingnut back then too.


----------



## nuclearzombies (20 Mar 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Csdi0nfwQ

Video of CPS arresting an ARA member, only 2 people were arrested and both of them were ARA. Of course, the police were picking on them, because all ARA members are pillars of morality :


----------



## JMesh (20 Mar 2011)

As TV said, as a species, we tend to pride ourselves and segregate ourselves based on the very things we are not supposed to discriminate by. The fact that a certain group suffered oppression for years in the past (and sadly still do sometimes today) is an absolute travesty that (at least in the case of the past) can't be changed. That said, when we have groups based on ethnicity or sexual orientation or gender, we are not moving forward as a country. We are further dividing ourselves in a way that for some reason we judge as acceptable. If we don't get rid of groups and unions and associations based on these discriminatory criteria, we are doomed to repeat history and we will never be able to get rid of the discrimination that is still too prevalent in our society. (N.B.: Too prevalent shall be defined as existent.)

nuclearzombies: Clearly they're pillars of morality. Isn't that what "f*** the police" signifies?  :


----------



## vonGarvin (20 Mar 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> There is a big difference between a "white pride parade" and a "black pride parade". The values held by the opposing forces are different. CF members fight for freedom and equality regardless of race or ethnicity.


Your two statements here are diametrically opposed.  Please explain "White Pride" (eg: proud of your heritage as a white person, NOT pretending to advocate for pride in your heritage when all you do is spew hate) and "Black Pride" (eg: proud of your heritage as a black person, NOT pretending to advocate for pride in your heritage when all you do is spew hate).


----------



## JMesh (20 Mar 2011)

Legend said:
			
		

> "White pride parade" is terminology associated with neo-nazi ideology.



I'm definitely with TV on this one. There is no reason that one need be more inherently racist than the other. If one can't say "white pride parade" to talk about a pride with a genuine pride in one's heritage, what can they call it? Are we too say that because the person is white that they're not allowed to demonstrate such pride? Why can a white pride parade not express "freedom, equality, and fortitude?"

The problem is that people have too many preconceived notions on this matter. "White pride," despite the connotations, need not be any more inherently racist than "black pride." If we allow one group to do something, we have to allow other groups to do it or we are justifying racially biased behaviour, one of the very roots of discrimination.

For the record, I am not advocating for white pride parades, nor am I advocating for black pride parades. I am simply advocating for equity. My previous post here should make my overall viewpoint on these parades clear.


----------



## Strike (20 Mar 2011)

JMesh, we just saw a plethora of pride parades that involved REAL white culture, not for the sake of "being white."  It was called St Patrick's Day.  Then there's Oktoberfest, the Santa Claus parade, and who knows how many more?  These parades essentially celebrate white culture, from where they were born, and have been embraced by other colours throughout the years.

Saying that white people have A culture is a crock of stinky poop.  White people have MANY cultures.

There may be a Black History month, but we have to remember that those events look on the bad as well as the good.  Caribbanna?  Would that be considered Black Pride?  No.  That would be considered Caribbean pride.  I would say that Black Pride = Black Panthers, and where are they today?  Why?  Because they focused on the race instead of individual cultures.  People seem to prefer being referred to as a culture (Japanese, German, Afghan) then a race (Oriental, White, Semitic/Aryan).  Huh.  Go figure.


----------



## Legend (20 Mar 2011)

One word to answer that: 

History


Maybe in two generations we will be able to use that terminology for what it means, and not what it represents. When I talk of equality, I do not mean in an economic sense or ethnic orientation. I mean having the ability to look at the world and the people that inhibit it, and have the rational to realize that no one is right. We are all following what are previous generation has passed down, or what information has been passed up in Academia. With the 6 major religions in today's world, who is to say one has more ground than the other. It all comes down to freedom for all. With a clash of civilizations approaching, and borders shrinking because of globalization, this is a concept we must inherit. As said before, Canada is a benchmark. We are leading the way.

This is my last post on this forum. This is not a matter of ideology. This is a matter of conduct within the CF and how it reflects its members.


----------



## JMesh (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> JMesh, we just saw a plethora of pride parades that involved REAL white culture, not for the sake of "being white."  It was called St Patrick's Day.  Then there's Oktoberfest, the Santa Claus parade, and who knows how many more?  These parades essentially celebrate white culture, from where they were born, and have been embraced by other colours throughout the years.
> 
> Saying that white people have A culture is a crock of stinky poop.  White people have MANY cultures.
> 
> There may be a Black History month, but we have to remember that those events look on the bad as well as the good.  Caribbanna?  Would that be considered Black Pride?  No.  That would be considered Caribbean pride.  I would say that Black Pride = Black Panthers, and where are they today?  Why?  Because they focused on the race instead of individual cultures.  People seem to prefer being referred to as a culture (Japanese, German, Afghan) then a race (Oriental, White, Semitic/Aryan).  Huh.  Go figure.



I agree with what you're saying here. At the same time, black people too have many cultures, yet we still see parades that are called "black pride parades" which are for the sake of "being black." I do not object in the least to culturally based parades; rather I fully support them as a celebration of the many diverse histories and cultures that make up our country. Further, they give others insight into these cultures so that we might better understand each others' traditions and hopefully develop a greater respect for one another. I object to parades that have pride based on nothing other than race, from any side.

You're absolutely right on black history month in that it does focus on the negative aspects as well as the positive. There's no reason there couldn't be such a month for any race or culture, and indeed many do have it. If we look at history in both the positive and negative aspects, we serve to advance our species and our collective society.


----------



## Strike (20 Mar 2011)

JMesh said:
			
		

> ...yet we still see parades that are called "black pride parades" which are for the sake of "being black."



Really?  I've never heard of that before and I've lived in some pretty cultural cities.



			
				JMesh said:
			
		

> There's no reason there couldn't be such a month for any race or culture, and indeed many do have it. If we look at history in both the positive and negative aspects, we serve to advance our species and our collective society.



Before people ask why there isn't a "White History Month" take a second and think about who all the major players were in your grade school history classes.


----------



## Newapplicant78 (20 Mar 2011)

Standing Ovation
*Whistle*

Thank you Strike 

Direct Hit  :warstory:


----------



## JMesh (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> Really?  I've never heard of that before and I've lived in some pretty cultural cities.
> 
> Before people ask why there isn't a "White History Month" take a second and think about who all the major players were in your grade school history classes.



As far as the black parade comment, I'd point to Joliet, Illinois as an example. Their annual Black Pride Parade and Picnic is to "promote positive aspects of the African American community." I looked into this parade a bit I've seen no binding point to suggest a specific culture. Other than race, I've found no binding links whatsoever.

As far as the white history month comment goes, you're absolutely right, and implying otherwise on that issue was not my intent (though on rereading I can certainly see how others might have construed this). My comment about looking at positive and negative aspects was meant towards history in general, not just the history of specific groups.

EDIT to add: http://www.unitycdc.org/blackpridejoliet.html A link to the Joliet Black Pride Festivities (including the aforementioned Black Pride of Joliet Parade)


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Mar 2011)

Never heard of a "black pride parade".

I'm with Strike on this one. Well said!


----------



## vonGarvin (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> Before people ask why there isn't a "White History Month" take a second and think about who all the major players were in your grade school history classes.


I don't ask that question, but I don't buy that reasoning.  If there is a (insert ethnic or other group) pride event/month, then there is no reason why there can't be one for every group (ethnic or otherwise).

Yes, there is Saint Patrick's Day, which arose in North America as a response to anti-Irish bigotry, there are Gay pride marches, which arose out of anti-Gay bigotry, and the list goes on.  But if there is an event or whatever based on a race, then there is no reason whatsoever why there can't be one for any race.  Period.


I do have to ask, what, exactly, is a "cultural" city?  Or do you mean ethnically diverse?  Or do you mean "non-white"?  (I'm not trolling here, I'm just asking).

You see, for me, race doesn't matter.  But when I see racially focussed events (not cultural), I raise an eyebrow out of suspicion, because I think it's hypocritical to 'highlight' our differences, when I feel we ought to instead highlight our similarities and focus on those.  "Diversity" doesn't make us strong, but unity of effort and having common ground does, even if that common ground comes from different perspectives, be they cultural or otherwise.

My :2c:


----------



## Strike (20 Mar 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I do have to ask, what, exactly, is a "cultural" city?  Or do you mean ethnically diverse?  Or do you mean "non-white"?  (I'm not trolling here, I'm just asking).



Oh I know you're not trolling.  Not to me anyway.   ;D

What I mean by "cultural" city is one that celebrates different cultures with various events like Oktoberfest or Caribbana, etc, or includes various enclaves (Little Italy, Chinatown) when advertising for tourism.

And I didn't infer that anyone believed that we should have a White History month, just that some might ask me why I believe we don't need one.  It was a matter of answering the question before it was asked.


----------



## vonGarvin (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> And I didn't infer that anyone believed that we should have a White History month, just that some might ask me why I believe we don't need one.  It was a matter of answering the question before it was asked.



I would answer the question the same as you; however, I do ask "Why a Black History month?"  It divides us, highlighting our differences.  IMHO, anyway.


----------



## Edward Campbell (20 Mar 2011)

Please, please, please do not try to interchange or even interconnect race with culture. They are quite different.

There is no “white” culture; nor is there a “black” culture. Cultures are, broadly, tied to time and space and language. Thus, the Roman culture, which did exist, is not the same as the modern Italian culture, which is also sufficiently distinct from, say, the neighbouring Slovenian (Balkan), French or Austrian (German) cultures as to stand on its own as a distinct culture. Equally, there is no African culture, _per se_: too many tribes, too many languages; too little written language; too many barriers to contact and so on.

Some cultures, that part of the Sinic culture we call Confucianism, for example, cross linguistic boundaries, but most do not.

In my (fairly long and varied (I’ve lived and worked in North America, Europe, Africa and Asia)) experience there is nothing in race (skin colour, eye shape, etc) to make anyone special: there are, proportionately, just as many black geniuses as white, just as many Japanese charlatans as English ones and just as many entrepreneurial Fijians as Americans.

But, *culture* is wholly and completely different. Some cultures are very 'advanced,' (and yes, I know that's a very subjective judgement but it is my considered judgement and I am prepared to defend it in reasoned debate) others, for a whole host of reasons, are ‘retarded’ – delayed in their development, perhaps unable to develop in the 21st century. We are all _prisoners_ of our cultures – weak or strong – but not of our skin colour or eye shape.

So, please: *culture matters*; race does not.


----------



## the 48th regulator (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> JMesh, we just saw a plethora of pride parades that involved REAL white culture, not for the sake of "being white."



Really?  Maybe we should break down these false misconceptions;



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> It was called St Patrick's Day.



A religious holiday, of the Catholic faith Celebrated throughout the Christian world for the festival it represented.  You know why?   By the oppression of the Roman empire, nothing to do with race.  We celebrated a Saint that brought Christianity to those that were oppressed by the Romans (Those that encompassed all races, as long as they were oppressed by Rome), and originally by the Norse (whites).



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Then there's Oktoberfest,



Yes yes, let's focus on the last 100 years of global history, and blame an age old celebration on the fact of race.....Tell me Strike, did no other _race_ celebrated the end of the summer and bountiful harvest that was achieved?



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> the Santa Claus parade,



A Christian celebration, dating back to pre Roman times.  Where race was not an issue.  We can debate the concept of western civilization, but, those of colour have been in prominent positions well in the Roman Empire, and the Catholic religion.



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> and who knows how many more?  These parades essentially celebrate white culture, from where they were born, and have been embraced by other colours throughout the years.



Amuse us, take the time and tell us what is "White" or Aryan" Centric?  More people of the Political Correct faction misinterpret what  a cause truly is, wouldn't you agree?




			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Saying that white people have A culture is a crock of stinky poop.  White people have MANY cultures.



Yep, which is why I had to break down your ranting.




			
				Strike said:
			
		

> There may be a Black History month, but we have to remember that those events look on the bad as well as the good.  Caribbanna?  Would that be considered Black Pride?  No.  That would be considered Caribbean pride.  I would say that Black Pride = Black Panthers, and where are they today?  Why?  Because they focused on the race instead of individual cultures.  People seem to prefer being referred to as a culture (Japanese, German, Afghan) then a race (Oriental, White, Semitic/Aryan).  Huh.  Go figure.



You lost me here, how is the above celebrations any different?

dileas 


tess


----------



## Strike (20 Mar 2011)

48 - You completely argued my point, which is that we celebrate our culture.  Those examples are ones that are historically "white."  Which goes to my belief that we don't need a "White Pride" parade because "white" is not a culture, it's a race.

Silly, silly man.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Mar 2011)

I'm really getting sick of all these bullshit semantics.

The fact that we deploy all over the world, doing what we do, is all the explanation that is required here.

*Quit trying to justify why you are Canadian, and just celebrate the fact that you are.*

Everyone, today, makes it on their own merit. 99% of the time, if you end up on the street, driving a truck, or the Prime Minister, *it has nothing* to do with *RACE*. You make your own bed in this world and there are too may examples to try prove otherwise.

I refuse to be judged by the action of my ancestors. Or enter into ridiculous arguements why they did what they did. And I completely refuse to be responsible for *their* sins, *IF* they have any. They are not me.

Anyone here, that fully believes, that racism exists in a problematic proportion in the CF is an absolute nutter idiot and, quite possibly, a closet bigot themselves.

Raise John Brown's body or invoke the (i)lucid contemplations of Rodney King  :. This thread has reached beyond stupidity and doesn't deserve to continue.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> 48 - You completely argued my point, which is that we celebrate our culture.  Those examples are ones that are historically "white."  Which goes to my belief that we don't need a "White Pride" parade because "white" is not a culture, it's a race.



Why do we need a Black History Month then? Shouldn't it be Carribean history month, and then an African history month, etc etc?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Mar 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Why do we need a Black History Month then? Shouldn't it be Carribean history month, and then an African history month, etc etc?



Because they followed all the proper procedures. They took petitions, they canvassed their MPs and MPPs, they crossed the T's and dotted the I's. they got support of Parliment and got it passed.

It's a fucking done deal!

Want a White History Month? Do the same damn thing. Just shut up and do it.

Is that about clear enough for you?


----------



## Newapplicant78 (21 Mar 2011)

Sorry Recceguy 


			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Because they followed all the proper procedures. They took petitions, they canvassed their MPs and MPPs, they crossed the T's and dotted the I's. they got support of Parliment and got it passed.
> 
> It's a ******* done deal!
> 
> ...



But it's more than just crossing /dotting i's and t's and it's a month that involves the United States as well. 
The NCAAP had a purpose when they formed that is to educate and see to the better treatment of the African American dependents of slavery. Anyone that has read The Book Of Nergo's would understand why a month is required.
Imagine slave ships the loss of identity/ family etc it's something we will continue to teach if not as a reminder but as a lesson to the world. 

It's for man's greed and need and quest for more power that can shatter lives. Use Hitler as an example if better understood.

The Caribbean is made up of people of all ethnics. They enjoy a good time and the celebration is not much different than that of New Orleans ( Do they still have a White king and queen and a Black king and queen?) but is unsegregated.  As far as I know any culture that lives in the Caribbean has the right to celebrate their own uniqueness.  

Granted since in Canada there are parts where culturally diversity it is should be understood you wont find these events that can be understood. 
I attended the parade this year every kind of person could be found there So here is WHAT!
Why don't we just say A bunch of guys decided to give them a permit so they could see half naked chicks dancing and join in... 8) duh..wait there is also the CHIN picnic no objections.  


Black Pride= Is how a person of colour that is being suppressed for some reason or another restores confidence in their own abilities =Black Power..please sup in any ethnicity if you will 

There are jesters that are used to symbolize this but they were used during a time when guns, ropes,chains and hoses were turned on peaceful people.

I didn't see hoses being turned on for the Ayrans. :-X


Black Panther and other groups= Empowering ones self because of injustices hence the term  By Any Means Necessary and they hold views that are seen as radical in nature but these views are usually shared by others that feel that they too have had some injustices done unto them. 
These injustices are viewed as being so great some are willing to find a way to keep pushing the issue. By Any Mean Necessary or close to it (radical speakers etc).

Ahh to be 13 again  um NOT  :boring:

*Fist in the air* Fight the good fight my Brothers and Sisters   Right on   If you have a problem with that statement then your seriously twisted


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## vonGarvin (21 Mar 2011)

Black Betty said:
			
		

> *Fist in the air* Fight the good fight my Brothers and Sisters   Right on   If you have a problem with that statement then you're seriously twisted


I guess I'm seriuosly twisted then.  (PS: I fixed your grammatical error for you)


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## OldSolduer (21 Mar 2011)

Black Betty said:
			
		

> Black Panther and other groups= Empowering ones self because of injustices hence the term  By Any Means Necessary and they hold views that are seen as radical in nature but these views are usually shared by others that feel that they too have had some injustices done unto them.
> These injustices are viewed as being so great some are willing to find a way to keep pushing the issue. By Any Mean Necessary  or close to it (radical speakers etc).
> 
> *Fist in the air* Fight the good fight my Brothers and Sisters   Right on   If you have a problem with that statement then your seriously twisted



What do you mean by "any means necessary"? Are you advocating terrorism?


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## Strike (21 Mar 2011)

BB - then tell me what the difference is between the White Pride orgs and BPs?  Both feel they've been wronged at some point.

That's why race-based organizations (as opposed to culturally-based which, by their nature, work to educate others and are more inclusive than race-based) don't work.

So, to try and put the focus back on the Calgary event and maybe add a bit of levity, if the White Pride people that showed up are all about, well, white pride, why were they all wearing black?

Discuss.   ;D


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## nuclearzombies (21 Mar 2011)

Because bloodstains are easier to conceal on black clothing, and white shirts simply don't go well with a shiner and a fat lip? :argument:


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## PuckChaser (21 Mar 2011)

Black Betty said:
			
		

> *Fist in the air* Fight the good fight my Brothers and Sisters   Right on   If you have a problem with that statement then your seriously twisted



Great attitude to have for someone that's applying to be in the CF.  :


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## the 48th regulator (21 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> 48 - You completely argued my point, which is that we celebrate our culture.  Those examples are ones that are historically "white."  Which goes to my belief that we don't need a "White Pride" parade because "white" is not a culture, it's a race.
> 
> Silly, silly man.



Really,

Explain to me how I argued your point.

dileas

tess


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## Journeyman (21 Mar 2011)

Stephen Carter, a U.S. lawyer and author, posits in his book _Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby,_ "The new grammar of race is constructed in a way that George Orwell would have appreciated, because its rules make some ideas impossible to express—unless, of course, one wants to be called a racist."

At the risk of such a label, I will point out the emperor's obvious lack of clothing:


> *Black Betty *
> We Are All Created Equal
> Until You Join The CF
> 
> ...


Of all the posters contributing to this thread, _you_ Black Betty, are the one closest to any definition of racist. 

Your fixation on seeing everything through the distorting lens of race, with:
- your stated self-entitlement to special ceremonies, excluding those outside your view of 'having been oppressed for hundreds of years';
- your ill-informed belief that joining the CF will somehow diminish your "equality";
- your support of a "fight" utilizing _any_ radical means to impose your view over those of peaceful society.

Such beliefs are not in keeping with acceptable Canadian or CF standards.



Edit: typo.


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## OldSolduer (21 Mar 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Stephen Carter, a U.S. lawyer and author, posits in his book _Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby,_ "The new grammar of race is constructed in a way that George Orwell would have appreciated, because its rules make some ideas impossible to express—unless, of course, one wants to be called a racist."
> 
> At the risk of such a label, I will point out the emperor's obvious lack of clothing:Of all the posters contributing to this thread, _you_ Black Betty, are the one closest to any definition of racist.
> 
> ...




And I concur. If you think BB that the CF is a means for you to effect change, or express your somewhat skewed view of things, think again.


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## Newapplicant78 (21 Mar 2011)

Racist...hahaha a bit of a B with an Itch but No I am NOT racist
My friend I am way to grown up way too much to be called a racist. I have white friends   
see twisted... :camo:




			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "any means necessary"? Are you advocating terrorism?


By Any Means Necessary was a statement used by Malcolm X during the Civil Rights Movement. He basically  said if a person is confronted with battons, and guns and they feel their life is in danger. Then they should have the right to fight back with weapons as well. 

No I am not advocating terrorism just quoting historical events.




> And I concur. If you think BB that the CF is a means for you to effect change, or express your somewhat skewed view of things, think again.


I've read enough to know that everyone in the CF has their own problems. Life has it problems as for exacting change what is there one.  ???




> our fixation on seeing everything through the distorting lens of race, with:
> - your stated self-entitlement to special ceremonies, excluding those outside your view of 'having been oppressed for hundreds of years';



*You lost me here since I know of lots of cultural events that celebrate their culture outside of Caribbean culture. * and NO people of colour were not the only ones to face oppression in this world. Our civilization continues to find ways to oppress one group over another throughout the world.



> - your ill-informed belief that joining the CF will somehow diminish your "equality";



 Then you join the CF and individual becomes one with a group. Never finished  
As Malcolm X once said "A race of people is like an individual man; until it uses its own talent, takes pride in its own history, expresses its own culture, affirms its own selfhood, it can never fulfill itself." 
Humanity is not perfect. We strive for perfection.



> your support of a "fight" utilizing any radical means to impose your view over those of peaceful society.



Thank the Lord for Black History month, PBS and the Canadian Forces for providing educational materials on the subject. I know why to much on this topic to be considered radical. Way to self aware to advocate for violence as a means to an ends. 

History speaks for itself  I am only here to teach folks that do not seem to understand. 
However, that does not mean that I have not been left at times or felt as though I was being excluded/singled out because of the colour of my skin. I have a heightened awareness regarding some things.

I have not attended any rally's of any kind in which one group is the main focus. 

I educated myself from childhood about my culture because it was not taught in school. Although it has been mostly American History.

When Afro-centric schools were introduced at first I advocated. I saw the good in having children taught about their culture and giving them a sense of belonging when some could/may feel ostracized. 
Then after learning why "segregation" was possible I changed my mind. 



> BB - then tell me what the difference is between the White Pride orgs and BPs?  Both feel they've been wronged at some point.



Not much really  : I guess both feel systematically suppressed, excluded and/or both. Black Panthers the organization itself almost really does not exist. Most people do not see from their point any longer. Since hoses are not being turned on people during peaceful protest, crosses are not burned outside of homes etc...

I was a child of the 70's with parents of the 60's. I have helped do my part in bringing Black education to schools around the country. 

I love this country I was born here I know no other home.  

Right On http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh9tU8O1LfY


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## Teeps74 (21 Mar 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Please, please, please do not try to interchange or even interconnect race with culture. They are quite different.
> 
> There is no “white” culture; nor is there a “black” culture. Cultures are, broadly, tied to time and space and language. Thus, the Roman culture, which did exist, is not the same as the modern Italian culture, which is also sufficiently distinct from, say, the neighbouring Slovenian (Balkan), French or Austrian (German) cultures as to stand on its own as a distinct culture. Equally, there is no African culture, _per se_: too many tribes, too many languages; too little written language; too many barriers to contact and so on.
> 
> ...



Just going to add, that those of us who wear the uniform are part of an entirely different culture within Canada.  We, in the CF (and I would guess other world militaries) will tend to be much more collectivist in approach then our civilian counter-parts (whereas civilians in Canada would be far more individualist).


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## Strike (21 Mar 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Really,
> 
> Explain to me how I argued your point.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the delay.  I was out most of the day.

All of my examples were to say that, although those celebrations tend to be "white" heavy in participation (mostly due to where they originated), they are meant to celebrate culture, NOT race.  After all, the unofficial motto of St Patty's Day is, "Everyone is Irish today!" with no caveat saying that this only includes Caucasians.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Mar 2011)

Just checking in to see if the thread has progressed.

Nope. It's still ridiculous. :


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## Michael OLeary (21 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> After all, the unofficial motto of St Patty's Day is, "Everyone is Irish today!" with no caveat saying that this only includes Caucasians.



And, sadly, it is celebrated mostly by those who seem to think that being (or liable to be) arrested for public intoxication somehow celebrates their "Irishness."


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## the 48th regulator (21 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> Sorry for the delay.  I was out most of the day.
> 
> All of my examples were to say that, although those celebrations tend to be "white" heavy in participation (mostly due to where they originated), they are meant to celebrate culture, NOT race.  After all, the unofficial motto of St Patty's Day is, "Everyone is Irish today!" with no caveat saying that this only includes Caucasians.



Roger that,

My bad.  I shall step away from this thread.

dileas

tess


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## Strike (21 Mar 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Roger that,
> 
> My bad.  I shall step away from this thread.
> 
> ...



The trick to reading my posts is to do so in a tone that is slightly exasperated and tired.  Easier to understand my thinking that way.


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## the 48th regulator (21 Mar 2011)

Strike said:
			
		

> The trick to reading my posts is to do so in a tone that is slightly exasperated and tired.  Easier to understand my thinking that way.




I tell you though, You had me shaking my fist at my computer screen.  Shaking I tell you!

 :blotto:

dileas

tess


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## ballz (21 Mar 2011)

Black Betty said:
			
		

> I am only here to teach folks that do not seem to understand.



I didn't respond to you the first times you posted because I can't understand half the things you are typing, and believe me that is not because I can't read. I could tell, somewhat, that you were not trying to advocate racism, but the way your words are jumbled together I've had to read the same stuff 3 or 4 times to decide that probably wasn't what you meant. But these "mightier than thou" statements have irritated me enough already.

I don't need you to teach me SFA about what I don't understand, and that you think your going to come in here with your "heightened awareness" and set us all straight is rather arrogant.

And the fact that you can't see that there's no difference in a white pride parade and black pride parade suggests you can't see through anything but tinted lenses.

We can all learn from one another, through debate and analysis, but no one is going to be "taught" anything. No one here is so uneducated, unexperienced, and narrow-scoped that they don't have a valid point of observation from their own chair.


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## Container (21 Mar 2011)

To be fair BB- I find your posts disjointed and meandering. I know there is a point in them somewhere but it requires a Rosetta Stone to find it.


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## nuclearzombies (21 Mar 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> To be fair BB- I find your posts disjointed and meandering. I know there is a point in them somewhere but it requires a Rosetta Stone to find it.



Agree. I'm outta here, the mods sould just slay this thread and be done with it :bla-bla:


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## Hammer Sandwich (21 Mar 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And, sadly, it is celebrated mostly by those who seem to think that being (or liable to be) arrested for public intoxication somehow celebrates their "Irishness."



And, to be the ashhole that gets the thread locked....

The local "new Rock" radio station here in Halifax stipulated that during the lunchtime request hour on March 17th...."all requests must be made with an Irish accent."

No big deal, right...."Haha....Irish is funny!"

My "fireteam partner" _read as: (my buddy @ work)_, brought up the point that, If the same radio station were to ask for requests only in "Ebonics" during February...heads would roll.

Seems to be a double-double standard to me.


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## FutureQYR (15 Apr 2011)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> And, to be the ashhole that gets the thread locked....
> 
> The local "new Rock" radio station here in Halifax stipulated that during the lunchtime request hour on March 17th...."all requests must be made with an Irish accent."
> 
> ...



But then again being Irish isn't a race, and possessing the accent is a product of having been born or grown up in Ireland, surrounded by that culture, regardless of the colour of ones skin. So you can't really comare the two.


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## Container (15 Apr 2011)

The Irish have never been treated like garbage for being Irish?


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## Brutus (15 Apr 2011)

YoungQYR said:
			
		

> But then again being Irish isn't a race, and possessing the accent is a product of having been born or grown up in Ireland, surrounded by that culture, regardless of the colour of ones skin. So you can't really comare the two.



There is little distinction made in our culture between those that are prejudiced against someone for their ethnicity and those prejudiced against someone for their race. Whether you are racist against black people in general or whether you are prejudiced against those who are from Sub-Saharan Africa only, either way you are labelled a racist, regardless of the fact that the label is not technically correct in the second instance.

So, yes, you can compare the two.


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## FutureQYR (17 Apr 2011)

Container/Brutus, 

Im not even gonna get this arguement going *again*.


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## nuclearzombies (18 Apr 2011)

I am extremely prejudice against short caucasian males who a) like zombie flicks; b) drink beer; c)  are named Joe

awwwww crap, I hate myself! Nuts! :facepalm:


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## opcougar (5 May 2011)

Brutus said:
			
		

> There is little distinction made in our culture between those that are prejudiced against someone for their ethnicity and those prejudiced against someone for their race. Whether you are racist against black people in general or whether you are prejudiced against those who are from Sub-Saharan Africa only, either way you are labelled a racist, regardless of the fact that the label is not technically correct in the second instance.
> 
> So, yes, you can compare the two.



Your post above can be categorized in to:

1. Racism

2. Xenophobia

If people can't make the comparison, then well

As someone that grew up in the U.K, it's not uncommon to come across people of different ethnicities, backgrounds and race with Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English accents.


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## Container (5 May 2011)

did you grow up in the UK during the period of time were Irish couldnt get jobs and were treated like crap when they immigrated to other countries?


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## Jarnhamar (6 May 2011)

SOPs when you're called a racist. Accuse the other person of being a racist.

There are 101 reasons why a CF member shoudn't be associated with 



			
				Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> And, to be the ashhole that gets the thread locked....


Trying to steal my job?



> The local "new Rock" radio station here in Halifax stipulated that during the lunchtime request hour on March 17th...."all requests must be made with an Irish accent."
> 
> No big deal, right...."Haha....Irish is funny!"
> 
> ...



That's true.  Drunk Irishman accent is funny.  Ebonics will get you called a racist.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 May 2011)

Why are we even back to this stupid topic? :


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## dinicthus (15 May 2011)

forgiven said:
			
		

> I could not agree more.  That is one of the reason I don't use facebook anymore, it is creepy.



Can you sit a bit more to the left when you are posting? I can't see your screen clearly as you type.


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## dinicthus (15 May 2011)

. sorry, can't delete.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 May 2011)

dinicthus said:
			
		

> . sorry, can't delete.



How about more reading and less posting....


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## dinicthus (15 May 2011)

But, I figured humour was welcome almost anywhere. Keep subtracting the MilPoints, if you must, by my motives are clean.  As I suggested in an email to the staff, put me at minus one billion or so if it makes you feel better. I'm not here to get or lose points, but to join conversations. 

I like to join conversations. Sometimes it would take months or years of reading to find out the answer of just a few questions. I don't think my humorous post was really spammy or excessive, really, or I wouldn't have placed it there. I think it's kind of funny, and a good reflection on the insecurity inherent in facebook, dishing out your location data as it can, unless you set it properly.

And, the post I couldn't erase was not a result of not reading every post in the history of this thread and/or every other thread. It was a comment that was relevant to this thread, but I didn't feel it was necessary.

I just perceive a tone of hostility coming from some of the staff. It isn't necessary. I'm not your enemy. And I do do searches, and read, but, there are what, a hundred thousand pages in the archives? If I have searched back to the point where THEN I'm getting yet another email saying OMG MilPoints, as many as can possibly be deducted have ONCE AGAIN been deducted from your account because you commented on a thread that is too OLD!

So, it's kind of a catch-22. I have searched, then joined an old conversation, then the guys have descended on me, fangs bared, for commenting on an old post. Then I comment on a newer one, and once, again, OMG another infraction, you horrible person.

I mean, really, can we lighten up? I'm not your enemy.


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## dinicthus (16 May 2011)

Thanks to kratz for this display of childishness:

Subject: Re: Reservist probed for \'racist activity\' as police prepare for white pride rally
Link: http://forums.Navy.ca/forums/threads/99922/post-1045053.html#msg1045053
Amount: -300 MilPoints

Notes: You asked for negative MilPoints and you shall receive.

For more information, please see the MilPoints FAQ: http://Navy.ca/milpoints/faq.php

Let us know when you reach puberty, kratz.

I hope to God you don't base decisions on whom to point your weapons at in similar fashion, if you are in any military or armed service.

What if  child said to you "go ahead, shoot me!" Would that warrant homicide, too?

I feel sorry for you, and for those like you. Deeply. Your punishment is that you are living as you.


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## Michael OLeary (16 May 2011)

dinicthus said:
			
		

> Notes: You asked for negative MilPoints and you shall receive.



Relax, there afre some around here that have had their senses of hunour and willingness to engage is mentoring leadership sucked dry by endless years of getting the same treatement from their own CF and regimental/corps chains of command. Give it time, they'll get over their initial "gotta watch that guy" attitude and you'll start to feel left out of all the daily traffic. Just try to stay low enough on the radar to survive long enough to become a regular poster. You'll be surprised at how outrageous the "usual suspects" get to be and not get slammed.


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## Jarnhamar (16 May 2011)

anyone said:
			
		

> What if  child said to you "go ahead, shoot me!" Would that warrant homicide, too?



Yes because we're highly trained to just follow orders and this child could know something we don't. Like he is a zombie and just about to "turn". You probably wouldn't follow orders and it's because of people like you that whole countries (28 days later) fall to zombie infections.

You should go up to the next person you see and ask them to punch you in the face and see if they do 
PS stop crying.

As for the topic, it's amazing that someone would be stupid enough to join a group like this let alone a member of the CF, 17 year old reservist or not.  Crap like that really gives nay-sayers ammunition to use against the military.


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## MrsAlex (23 May 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> As for the topic, it's amazing that someone would be stupid enough to join a group like this let alone a member of the CF, 17 year old reservist or not.  Crap like that really gives nay-sayers ammunition to use against the military.



I concur. There is already many prejudices against the military, no need to give any more fuel to the haters. When one accepts to wear the CF uniform, he got to realize it comes with responsibilities, and I'm pretty sure those responsibilities are very well covered during the formation. Every member of the CF is a representative of the Cf. Fortunately, I've found that the large majority of them are indeed good representatives.


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## toyotatundra (28 Jun 2011)

Initially I was sympathetic to the young recruit. Then I went and checked the websites associated with the group.

White pride is a disgusting orgy of hate.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jun 2011)

toyotatundra said:
			
		

> Initially I was sympathetic to the young recruit. Then I went and checked the websites associated with the group.
> 
> White pride is a disgusting orgy of hate.



Thanks for trying to kickstart the 'shit show' again.

The least you could have done was put forth a discussion point instead of trying to incite the others to join in.

Ain't happening.

Milnet.ca Staff


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