# Fresh water under the Oceans



## a_majoor (7 Dec 2013)

This will probably ring Maud Barlow's bell, but it science has discovered vast undersea aquifers of fresh water, which can potentially be reached and exploited using the same technology that is used for deep water oil drilling. While wholescale pillage of these reserves is only going to be a short stopgap, we should remember that the real problem isn't that there is a shortage of fresh water, it is that the fresh water isn't where people are.

Personally, I think it will probably be far cheaper in the long term to import water conservation technologies from places like Israel (which has a GDP similar to California, but uses 1/5 of the water per capita), and turn wastewater treatment into "recycling". Even today I suspect that about 1/3 of the wastewater could be successfully returned into the civic water supply using current technology. Other ideas like introducing genetically engineered crops that require less input in the form of water and fertilizer, different agricultural practices that reduce inputs further and looking very carefully at industrial processes to reduce water usage will also have a much greater long term impact:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519911/Vast-freshwater-reserves-discovered-ocean-floor-supply-future-generations.html



> *Vast freshwater reserves discovered under the ocean floor which could supply future generations*
> Researchers make discovery on continental shelves off Australia, China, North America and South Africa
> Discovery comes as UN estimates suggest water use has been growing at more than double the rate of population over the last century
> By WILLIAM TURVILL
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2013)

I'm more interested in the baby shark 8)


----------



## nn1988 (8 Dec 2013)

I am going off on a tangent here but whatever happened to Libya's The Great Man-Made River...


----------



## Sadukar09 (8 Dec 2013)

Interesting.

However, wouldn't be better economically if we invested in more efficient sea water de-salinization?

After all, why search for the small pocket of fresh water, when the ocean covers the Earth?


----------



## a_majoor (8 Dec 2013)

ERR said:
			
		

> I am going off on a tangent here but whatever happened to Libya's The Great Man-Made River...



AS far as I can tell, it is still operating, although at a much lower capacity. One of the plants that made the pipes for the pipelines was hit during tthe NATO phase of the civil war since it was also being used to store military equipment.

The GMMR project is the same idea on a smaller scale. Water is being pulled from an ancient aquifer that was filled during the last ice age and is not being replenished. It is suggested that the cost of this water is only 10% of the cost of desalination, but estimates as to how long this can be used range from 60 to 1000 years. So long as there is such a huge cost differential, pulling water from aquifers will be more cost effective than desalination.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 Dec 2013)

Who cares?

Canada has most of the fresh water anyway.

Push comes to shove, we can sell it for $130.00 a barrel like the Saudis sell oil.

You can live without oil, but you can't live without water.


----------



## Lightguns (9 Dec 2013)

Canada has about 7% of the land mass and about 8% of known fresh water.  Russia has the same ratio of land to fresh water.  We both have the highest ratios of land to fresh water but the overall amount is not dramatic.  Excluding this new find, fresh water is evenly spread across the Northern Hemisphere.  It would be interesting to know how much there is under the oceans across the planet as it could change some future balances of power.


----------



## a_majoor (9 Dec 2013)

Aside from the environmental ninnies who vocally oppose all forms of resource extraction, the real killer for water exports is the fact that water is heavy and inert. Oil is energy rich, and moving it costs far less than the energy extracted to run pipelines, tankers etc. Water, OTOH costs energy to move, energy to desalinate, energy to treat for drinking or disposal as wastewater. While you can't live without it, you also can't live where you can't afford to get any (or bring any to) either.

Diverting enough Canadian water to actually be useful would require geoengineering on the sacle of the proposed North American Water and Power Alliance mega engineering project proposal from the 1960's; reversing the rivers that drain into the Arctic ocean and using the water to power North America and irrigate the praries and American Southwest. To give you an idea of the scale and scope of this, one of the sub projects would have diverted water into the interior of BC. To fill the interior of BC wold take about 30 years.... Some historical background and a map here

Even less dramatic Soviet era projects have essentially runined vast tracts of Central Asia by salinating the soil, and drying the Aral sea, with massive long term consequences for the region. Far better to access local sources, use them efficiently and recycle the water from the waste and reuse it.

edit to fix link


----------



## Lightguns (9 Dec 2013)

Flooding the interior of BC, LOL, sell that one to Idle No More!  What a massive project, wow, that is some incredible thinking.  And a canal across the prairies with access to the sea for Alberta and Saskchewan, again, wow.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Dec 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Flooding the interior of BC, LOL, sell that one to Idle No More!  What a massive project, wow, that is some incredible thinking.  And a canal across the prairies with access to the sea for Alberta and Saskchewan, again, wow.



In, I think, the 1970s when Hydro Quebec was developing the hydro potential of Northern Quebec, there was a proposal to dam James Bay to turn it into a massive fresh water reservoir to supply the American southwest. I don't think the project got much beyond the artist's concept stage but there may have been a book published on the project.

Edit: The plan originated in the 1950s but finally petered out in the seventies. 

http://aquadoc.typepad.com/waterwired/2008/03/canada-to-usa-w.html


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Dec 2013)

2nd narrows in Vancouver had a dam proposed on it to create a fresh water lake.


----------



## a_majoor (9 Dec 2013)

The cost/benefit ratio for any of these projects is completely out to lunch, unless some sort of Fascist State arises in North America I doubt any of these projects will ever come to pass.

Incidentally, a similar project was proposed for Africa; placing dams across the Congo and turning much of the nation of the Congo into an inland sea, and while the Soviets have passed into history, the Chinese have built some mega projects like the "Three Gorges" that come close in scale and scope.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Dec 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The cost/benefit ratio for any of these projects is completely out to lunch, unless some sort of Fascist State arises in North America I doubt any of these projects will ever come to pass.
> 
> Incidentally, a similar project was proposed for Africa; placing dams across the Congo and turning much of the nation of the Congo into an inland sea, and while the Soviets have passed into history, the Chinese have built some mega projects like the "Three Gorges" that come close in scale and scope.




But, I can assure from some direct, personal contact, that these two guys were looking seriously at those kinds of projects and the _politics_ necessary to get them:







   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Robert Bourassa               Bernard Lamarre
Premier of Quebec            President of SNC-Lavalin
1970-76 & 85-94              1972-1999


----------



## a_majoor (9 Dec 2013)

While it is true many people have looked into ideas like this, the market forces work against this. Only a Fascist or similar state can "afford" to ignore the forces of the market (at least for a while), which is why these projects will not come to pass here in North America.


----------



## a_majoor (10 Dec 2013)

From NBF, a taste of some of the technologies that can dramatically reduce water usage in agriculture. US agriculture in particular is very wasteful and water intensive due to the heavy subsidization of agricultural water (without this, no one in their right mind would be growing lettuce and alfalfa in the California desert!), ending these sorts of subsidies could be done, saving billions of dollars/year to the taxpayer without much disruption of the food supply at all:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/12/limits-to-growth-model-used-for-2052.html



> *Limits to Growth Model used for 2052 forecast and takes global collapse off the table*
> 
> Note- Nextbigfuture does not believe that the Limits to Growth Models are correct. Improvements in technology can radically increase the capacity of the planet. There is a great deal of emphasis on CO2, yet human created CO2 is a side effect of technological industrialization.
> 
> ...


----------



## pbi (12 Dec 2013)

I agree that we could be much more economical with the water that we already have access to. In North America (especially Canada) we have been quite spoiled, which has led us over the last two centuries to some horribly wasteful and destructive uses of water, some of which we are still recovering from.

On exercise in Norway back in the early 90's, I remember thinking how odd it was that the Norgie barracks had water saving showers, toilets, and washing machines. In Canada we just poured it all over the place, however we wanted to. The fact that in Canada we could always get water for relatively low cost through municipally or provincially subsidized water systems probably didn't help.

While I don't hold with some of the more loony types in the fringes of the eco movements, I see responsible care of the environment as a civic responsibility, not a left-wing fetish. I don't know about you, but I can't drink poisonous water, and I don't like breathing polluted air. (Does that make me a "tree hugger?") How we take care of our water strikes me as being pretty important: we should be careful not to tar responsible concern with the brush of extremism.

As Thucydides rightly points out, one of the biggest despoilers of water in North America has been agriculture. Fertilizer and pesticide runoff in rivers and lakes, water table depletion, and massive production of animal waste have all had their effects on water sources. Industry is not the only worry.

When people dismiss the concern by saying "_what the hell-we got a country full of water, right?_" they might want to think a bit harder.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Dec 2013)

It doesn't make any economic sense to take measures* to abate profligate fresh water use in areas where fresh water is ubiquitous and plentiful.  The available resources need to be targeted correctly.  It does make sense to avoid and mitigate contamination.

One of my grandmothers thought two of the greatest innovations in her lifetime were running (potable) water coming into the house and running water going out - the latter being the more useful.  The problem and convenience of grey water and sewage disposal are both highly underrated, and are both concerned with larger volumes of water than drinking and cooking.

Much of humanity is clustered along ocean coastlines, and sewage doesn't care whether it is carried in a flow of fresh or salt water.

*barring trivial, extremely low-cost ones


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Dec 2013)

Very true, I just took the opportunity of a pipe replacement near my house to educate the kids on what lies under the streets. It boggles my mind how little people think about the web of infrastructure that surrounds them. In the infrastructure business we say "If we do our jobs well nobody will notice"


----------



## pbi (12 Dec 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> ... The problem and convenience of grey water and sewage disposal are both highly underrated, and are both concerned with larger volumes of water than drinking and cooking...



Yes. Just imagine (if you can ) a city of apartment dwellers, hundreds in each building, block after block of buildings, in July, unable to flush their toilets....


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Dec 2013)

Sounds like North Korea


----------



## pbi (12 Dec 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sounds like North Korea



No...they just dump it on their fields.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Dec 2013)

Actual they move people into highrises with no electricity and no running water. Those people consider themselves lucky....


----------

