# Former KGB Agent Talks About Indoctrination



## tomahawk6 (13 Oct 2008)

The videos below show how a country is subverted from within.

Pt1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkPkJInUmU

Pt2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIFcnctnHsE


----------



## Paul W... (13 Oct 2008)

The West is turning somewhat to socialist policies of Russia while still remaining more or less democratic,while Russia and China are turning Capatilist while still remaining authouritarian.

 We still have it better.

Scroll down a little to read the article.

http://www.bcrevolution.ca/soviet_canada.htm


----------



## oligarch (15 Oct 2008)

Paul W... said:
			
		

> The West is turning somewhat to socialist policies of Russia while still remaining more or less democratic,while Russia and China are turning Capatilist while still remaining authouritarian.



I havent watched the clip yet, but you raise an interesting thesis explored by one of my profs. Basically the thesis is on capitalist reforms, and that you cannot turn a country into a capitalist country without supressing liberties, since the people will revolt due to the pain of transition. While I do not agree with your assertion that Russia is authoritarian today, the argument seems logical. So, in the interest of promoting discussion, I will refer you to the following article:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/users/register.php?story_id=3934&registered_only=1&URL=http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3934

You will have to register to see it, but registration is free. So just make up a name! 

Being a Russian myself I can say what I am about to say with some authority, as well as knowing many Russians who currently live in Russia and in Canada. The Russian people (in law of large numbers) do not look at democracy as an end; rather, they look at it as a means. So, on your point that "we still have it better", most Russians would say the same thing, only in reverse. In the Russian mind, democracy must be used as a means to achieve a an end, such as prosperity, which the country is currently doing quite well, given the sound fiscal management and current growth, and the move toward capitalism that we all know ends up in more efficient markets.

Just my two cents, please, no rough play.

Cheers!
Cheers!


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Oct 2008)

oligarch said:
			
		

> ... The Russian people (in law of large numbers) do not look at democracy as an end; rather, they look at it as a means. So, on your point that "we still have it better", most Russians would say the same thing, only in reverse. In the Russian mind, democracy must be used as a means to achieve a an end, such as prosperity, which the country is currently doing quite well, given the sound fiscal management and current growth, and the move toward capitalism that we all know ends up in more efficient markets.
> ...



And therein, oligarch, lies the quite fundamental difference between “the West and the rest.” The West is, broadly, albeit not always deeply, a _liberal_ construct. The pursuit of individual and societal *liberty* was seen as a worthy - the worthiest - end in itself. The fact that an infant, barely emerging liberal democracy gave ‘birth’ to the _Scottish Enlightenment_* (which, in turn, gave birth to modern capitalism and the unique mix of _humanism_ and _science_ that characterizes the West) is instructive. The ‘people’ put *liberty* first.

In fact the fundamental reason why Marx was so completely wrong in his theorizing – and why all _Marxist_ ‘theorists’ in every single university are totally ‘out to lunch’ – is that the _liberal_ and _liberated_ ‘people’ understand that in order to prosper they and corporations both *need* democracy: government with the informed consent of the governed, respect for the rule of law and equality at law for all – governors and governed alike. Marx saw all manner of problems, real problems, that were ‘solved’ by *liberals* in an emerging liberal democracy, while he was writing away in the reading room of the British Museum. As the Chinese are discovering and as the Russians must discover, if they ever want to prosper, something akin to a proper, functioning democracy, but not, necessarily, a _liberal_ democracy, is an essential precursor to a stable market system. It is adherence to good _liberal_ (but not Liberal) policies and _instincts_ that will solve the current economic crisis – which was caused, in large part, by _collectivist_ efforts to establish _equality of outcomes_ (homes for the poor, etc). The only equality that matters – the only equality that can be ‘provided’ or ‘earned’ - is equality of opportunity. Only deities can provide equality of outcome and neither Barack Obama nor Vladimir Putin is a god.

See, for example, this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from yesterday’s _Daily Telegraph_:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/3196102/China-democracy-Reformers-words-signal-a-new-debate-on-political-reform.html


> China democracy: Reformer's words signal a new debate on political reform
> *China's leadership may be willing to reopen a debate about political reform now that the Beijing Olympic Games are over.*
> 
> 
> ...




The Chinese, some Chinese leaders, anyway, are moving in the right direction.

In my opinion Russia remains, steadfastly, on the wrong track – as you, yourself, say they want to put the economic cart ahead of the democratic horse, a bad idea. They have made poor political choices because, I think, they have a very weak political _culture_. There is no quick fix for that – all the oil and natural gas in the world cannot fix serious cultural flaws, if they could then Saudi Arabia would be a much different place, rather than an absolute monarchy waiting to be subjected to a violent revolution, à la Russia in 1917. And Russia has reverted to 1914.


--------------------
* Which was immeasurable more important and influential than weak, pathetic _continental_ thing of the same name – as even such European enlightenment thinkers as Voltaire acknowledged that they “look to Scotland for all [their] ideas of civilization.”


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (15 Oct 2008)

I posted the following in another thread back in August, but I thought I would recycle it here.  I picked these three themes out of a book called Chechnya - Russia's War on Terror  by John Russell: 

a._ Derzhavnost _ - This is the idea that Russia is a great power and must remain so.  

b.  _Gosudarstvennost_ - The idea that Russia can only be held together as a great power through a strong centralized government

c.  _Siloviki_ - the leaders of Russian law and order ministries.  These folks are estimated to comprise 58% of the current top Russian leadership, as opposed to 25% under Gorbachev. 

The first two terms look like fancy names for nationalism, but with the sentiment that Russia is a Great Power.  Frustrated ambitions can be dangerous.

The third is somewhat relevant to the thread at hand.  The idea that former security leaders (many of them ex-KGB) make up the majority in the running of Russia is of interest.

I beleive that democracy and capitalism are linked, but I am not sure that  one causes the others.  They do seem to support each other.  To me, a strong, healthy middle class is the basis of real democracy.  Capitalism can lead to the creation of a middle class, but I think that it needs to be accompanied by democracy in order to ensure that the gains of the country are spread about.  There is, perhaps, a tautology in there somewhere.  Still, if capitalism is married with authoritarianism you may well see great economic gains, but the long-term stability of the country might be an issue if people are shut out of the process or if the status quo is maintained through force not accompanied by the rule of law.


----------

