# The Poor Soldier



## jside86 (20 Aug 2014)

I have been thinking of writing this article/post for a long time and I think now is the time. Soldiers are poor, when I say soldiers; I mean most ranks within the Canadian Armed Forces. The pay is not the reason; “We are one of the most paid professional Soldiers in the World”. The lack of good financial educations, knowledge and resources within our ranks is the main reason most of us are poor.

In the 7 years I have done in the Forces, I seen many different financial scenario, some of them make me sad, some of them sicken me, and rarely I will find some that make me smile.
 Credit card, car loan, line of credit, payday loan and mostly mortgages are part of the problem. Our troops are crumbling under debts. Rarely, you will see a family debt free in our environment. It’s time for change, it’s time to re-educate our troops regarding personal finance.

Sisip teaches us to be careful with our money, not all of us are. I see many young private driving cars so expensive that the insurance payment is more than the car payment. I see to many soldiers living in the military housing over 10 years. I see many families getting torn apart for accumulated financial stress. Horror stories after horror stories, it is time for change.

We need to have ‘The Talk”, a yearly PD session on the dangers of debt and the benefit of saving. Financial stress is the last thing a soldiers and his/her family need. We have enough stress as it is that none of us need the burden of debt. 

I know it is hard to buy a house; the risk of buying is there. Some are losing, but most of us end up making profit. The military housing should be a temporary option at best. I have seen people live in the PMQ for over 25 years, with all the money they lost over the years, they could have retired with a house fully paid and live comfortable life on a military pension. 

I know it is hard to pay debt; I hate to quote the Bible but I really like this proverb: the borrower is slave to the lender. The first thing to do is to stop buying. Stop the debt slavery.
Pay your debt and be free. Buy a house before you buy a new car. A new car or a new truck will impress the crow, but being debt free will impress even more. 

I know it is hard to save; do it! 15% of each pay should go toward an emergency fund and saving, you should be at least 6 month ahead financially, after that, ramp up that RRSP or RESP. plan ahead big purchase, stop being impulsive, learn to control your finance, take control of your life.

I would like to tell you that you can rely on Sisip or banks to help you, but they are more often out of reach or all they want is your money. Sisip is a good concept but often use too late. If you need help budgeting, If you thing you are going in the wrong direction or even if you need a tap on the shoulder, I highly suggest you consult before it is too late.


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## DAA (20 Aug 2014)

The information is already out there and it basically boils down to "personal choice".  We can educate and warn all we want but I heard it best said many many years ago, "The soldier is the ultimate consumer.  If they can take it with them, they will buy it."  Neither you nor I, nor the CoC nor all the financial education that is provided can stop it.

Common theme years ago is the same theme I see today.  Newly qualified Pte posted in and within a week or two, sometimes only a matter of days, the phone is ringing and some company is calling to "Confirm employment".

It's "nice" to have that new car, new trailer, new boat, new ATV, new snowmobile, new etc.  Until it's paid off, you don't really own it!

Oh, and it's not the lowly Pte's and Cpl's that exclusively indulge like this.  I've seen dual income married service couples struggling to make ends meet while living in PMQ's.


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## PMedMoe (20 Aug 2014)

Yeah, I don't want to have to sit through "the talk" yearly (along with other annual requirements) just because someone can't budget.  Sorry.


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## ModlrMike (20 Aug 2014)

I would agree. I don't think it's reasonable to have, or to have to give "the talk" every year. What we should be doing is reinstating the Lifeskills programme. Start by giving recruits some basic financial guidance, and then require each member complete the programme once they are posted to their first units. This can be done partially DL, and partially in conjunction with SISIP.


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## Robert0288 (20 Aug 2014)

During BMQ, are there any lessons on basic life skills, budgeting, and personal finances?  I remember only a quick blurb from SISIP saying that they exist and where to find them, but that's pretty much it.


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## RedcapCrusader (20 Aug 2014)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> During BMQ, are there any lessons on basic life skills, budgeting, and personal finances?  I remember only a quick blurb from SISIP saying that they exist and where to find them, but that's pretty much it.



Not really, but if the DS are switched on they'll tell their troops about spending money wisely, investment/savings.


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## DAA (20 Aug 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Not really, but if the DS are switched on they'll tell their troops about spending money wisely, investment/savings.



If the DS are switched on, they will defer to those who are trained to provide financial counselling.  Anything less, they are stepping outside their AOR and giving personal opinion only.


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## BorisK (20 Aug 2014)

As a new applicant to the CF, and as a fairly intelligent individual that still managed to generate some debt (that I have now just about paid off) - I read this thread [as well as the 'Entering the CF and your money' thread] with great interest.  

For what it's worth, thanks for opening this discussion.  

I've got a few questions about buying a home but I'll read through the many pages elsewhere on the site first.  Again, thanks.


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## Tibbson (21 Aug 2014)

I cant schedule the mandated training I already have to do (first aid, 9 mm, C7, gas, fire fighting, Use of Force, IARD, ethics...) so that everyone is covered without running multiple serials.  Add in career courses, leave, MATA/PATA, sick time  and everything else, not to mention normal ops, and this would just become another distraction and training topic that gets ignored once I prioritize everything else.


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## RedcapCrusader (24 Aug 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> If the DS are switched on, they will defer to those who are trained to provide financial counselling.  Anything less, they are stepping outside their AOR and giving personal opinion only.



You don't need to be a CPA to be able to tell your troops "Put 50 bucks a pay cheque away into a secure savings account, you'll thank me later".


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## PPCLI Guy (24 Aug 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I cant schedule the mandated training I already have to do (first aid, 9 mm, C7, gas, fire fighting, Use of Force, IARD, ethics...) so that everyone is covered without running multiple serials.  Add in career courses, leave, MATA/PATA, sick time  and everything else, not to mention normal ops, and this would just become another distraction and training topic that gets ignored once I prioritize everything else.



The ethics one is easy to dispense with - tell your troops that if they give you 10 bucks, you will write off the ethics training for them.....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Aug 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The ethics one is easy to dispense with - tell your troops that if they give you 10 bucks, you will write off the ethics training for them.....



Frig, back in my day that cost ya' $20.   I guess competition does drive down prices...................


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## expwor (24 Aug 2014)

BTW it doesn't just apply to those in the Canadian Forces...it applies to everyone

Tom


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## always_learning (24 Aug 2014)

anyone know if there is a going to be a pay raise anytime soon lol, I know sounds like a joke right, but maybe wishful thinking.  also I've always wondered why there is a huge pay gap between officers and NCM's in todays military where the skill level and education level of NCM's are up there in many trades.  some tech trades civy side pay them sometimes double for their skills than the military, and some officer trades civy side pay far less.  I know there is spec pay and all but its really not that much especially to keep some of those skills.  there is constant turnover in many trades and a decent income for people in the cpl rank would probably keep those people is the forces.  so a maxed out CPL takes 7-8 years depending on trade makes just under 60k and and after that promotions are not a given, on the other side a captain goes up to 90k and starts around 75k, there are so many pay bumps for the captain rank and is a very comfortable life.  why does the CF not make more levels to NCM ranks to try and keep them with better pay?  is it cheaper to just let soldiers leave and spend years training new people to the same level the previous soldier was on? heck even a CBSA officer makes more than a experienced CPL making 70k and they have the option of overtime pay.


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## dapaterson (24 Aug 2014)

Median _family_ income in Canada, 2012: $74540 (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm)

Cpl(3), Reg F, as of 01 April 2013: $59040 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page)

So, a 25 year old with no training or experience outside the military makes almost 80% of the median family income.  Of course, allowances aren't included in that $59K figure.  Nor is the future value of a pension that permits retirement with an immediate pension of 50% after 25 years of service - as early as age 42.  Nor is the value of the training and experience received - outside government you're generally on the hook to pay for your own training.  And work clothes.  And the $74K figure is for a family; if our Cpl is married (and doesn't get PLD or any allowances) as long as the spouse works about half time at minimum wage their family is at the median for a Canadian family.

So where's the gap, exactly?


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## Transporter (24 Aug 2014)

always_learning said:
			
		

> anyone know if there is a going to be a pay raise anytime soon lol, I know sounds like a joke right, but maybe wishful thinking.  also I've always wondered why there is a huge pay gap between officers and NCM's in todays military where the skill level and education level of NCM's are up there in many trades.  some tech trades civy side pay them sometimes double for their skills than the military, and some officer trades civy side pay far less.  I know there is spec pay and all but its really not that much especially to keep some of those skills.  there is constant turnover in many trades and a decent income for people in the cpl rank would probably keep those people is the forces.  so a maxed out CPL takes 7-8 years depending on trade makes just under 60k and and after that promotions are not a given, on the other side a captain goes up to 90k and starts around 75k, there are so many pay bumps for the captain rank and is a very comfortable life.  why does the CF not make more levels to NCM ranks to try and keep them with better pay?  is it cheaper to just let soldiers leave and spend years training new people to the same level the previous soldier was on? heck even a CBSA officer makes more than a experienced CPL making 70k and they have the option of overtime pay.



Let's chalk that little nugget up to your username.


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## always_learning (24 Aug 2014)

the fact that the CF is not your normal job and has not just risk and a certain lifestyle, you can be told to go anywhere anytime, as well as you give up certain privileges when you join. well i just wish we were on par with other government agencies regarding pay as the CBSA and RCMP.  or the opportunity to make more with overtime when in garrison.  sry guys money has been on my mind recently, btw I'm very frugal when it comes to my finances I'm not one of those that spends on stupid things.  but certain situations may arise when even when you are frugal you may need more money to meet the needs.  i just wished there was another way to make more at the rank by being able to work overtime, and not having to deliver pizzas or other work that can be hard to come when the military comes first.  

edit: also we all know it can be hard for spouses to keep employment when you are in small towns and get posted every few years as well as many areas where bases are isolated with the local economy being garbage so nothing more than minimum wage if you can even get a job so I'm assuming if you look at the NCM its far below the canadian median.  its not the 1950's anymore where only one person works.  spouses like to have careers as well and won't accept that lifestyle anymore.


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## dapaterson (24 Aug 2014)

The solution to financial problems is rarely (if ever) more money.  The solution always begins with less spending.

And you haven't justified why CAF members should be individually paid more than Canadian families earn; you've only compared them to other government workers.


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## always_learning (24 Aug 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The solution to financial problems is rarely (if ever) more money.  The solution always begins with less spending.
> 
> And you haven't justified why CAF members should be individually paid more than Canadian families earn; you've only compared them to other government workers.



sry i made an edit to my last post i made. i agree the first solution to money problems should be see where you can cut but sometimes that may not be enough and the problem is you don't make enough.


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## dapaterson (25 Aug 2014)

Per my earlier links: A Cpl (3) makes 80% of the Canadian median family income, before PLD or allowances.  That is 80% of the median for a family not for one individual.  That is hardly "far below the median".

In fact, looking at it another way, StatsCan indicates that only 7597110 of 25797510 Canadians made $50K or over in 2012; in other words, our Cpl is in the top 30% of Canadian earners (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm).  Median total income for individual Canadians was $31320; in other words, our Cpl is being paid nearly twice the Canadian median income.

So, top 30% of earners (before allowances such as SDA, LDA, Aircrew, PLD), nearly twice the median earnings of other Canadians, defined benefit pension plan that can be drawn as early as age 42 without penalty... I'm still not quite understanding the compensation problem here.


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## always_learning (25 Aug 2014)

well as for the family income i was saying that the median may be lower because most households have 2 income earners in the family and a military life can drastically affect that in a negative way. 

I was just saying that it would be good to be more in line to other agencies such as the CBSA who make 70k in far less years to get to become a CPL in the CF  and RCMP that go to 85k after 3 years. they also get to make more in overtime.  I'm thinking there should be at least more incentive ranks for CPLs to keep them around and keep the skills that they have.  

as for PLD lol . you know that has not been updated in years and places like cold like have ever increasing cost of living.  

and just found something interesting.  this is after tax income.  the median after tax income for a family was 78k in 2010

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil21a-eng.htm


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## dapaterson (25 Aug 2014)

So, a Cpl individually making more than 70% of Canadians is not enough?


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## always_learning (25 Aug 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, a Cpl individually making more than 70% of Canadians is not enough?



just made an edit to my last post but this says median family income after tax in 2010 was 78k.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil21a-eng.htm

CPLs do not make more than an average canadian.


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## McG (25 Aug 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Median _family_ income in Canada, 2012: $74540 (http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm)


Is a better comparison the median employment income of persons not in census families ($ 28,590 in 2012)?
http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/cansim/a26?lang=eng&retrLang=eng&id=1110009&paSer=&pattern=&stByVal=1&p1=1&p2=37&tabMode=dataTable&csid=

Either way, if I were to make comparisons then I would like to know the variance or to see the distribution curve.


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## always_learning (25 Aug 2014)

is that from all single income earners even ones that work part time? think if we go with full time workers the number is higher and of course it will vary by age.  if you are making 60k at 25 its good but if you are making 66k at 35 which is a sgts pay its far below the salary of others in that age group.


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## RedcapCrusader (25 Aug 2014)

always_learning said:
			
		

> is that from all single income earners even ones that work part time? think if we go with full time workers the number is higher and of course it will vary by age.  if you are making 60k at 25 its good but if you are making 66k at 35 which is a sgts pay its far below the salary of others in that age group.



60k after 4 years or even 66k after 6(ish) is pretty decent compared to average time span of adults entering the workforce (starting from 18) out of high school. Even out of college, does not put people any further ahead and actually makes their time to 60k much longer; and that's average. The benefits too are much better than anyone in the private sector. Even my package from AUPE is not as good as a RegF soldier whom comparatively makes less money than I do *after deductions*, for obvious reasons.


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## brihard (25 Aug 2014)

always_learning said:
			
		

> well as for the family income i was saying that the median may be lower because most households have 2 income earners in the family and a military life can drastically affect that in a negative way.
> 
> I was just saying that it would be good to be more in line to other agencies such as the CBSA who make 70k in far less years to get to become a CPL in the CF  and RCMP that go to 85k after 3 years. they also get to make more in overtime.  I'm thinking there should be at least more incentive ranks for CPLs to keep them around and keep the skills that they have.
> 
> ...



Out of curiosity, why would you pick experienced RCMP or CBSA officers as appropriate comparisons to a CF corporal who isn't pulling spec pay? What's behind your deeming the jobs to be roughly equivalent? What's your understanding of the relative duties and responsibilities of a police officer or border guard compared to, say, a Cpl in the infantry, or traffic tech, or sup tech, or RMS clerk? Seems a bit of an apples/oranges...


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2014)

always_learning 

Would it be possible for you to 'learn' how to use the "Shift Key" when you type your messages.  It will make your posts much easier to read.  

We do stress the proper use of the English language in the written form here; so the proper use of capitalization, punctuation, etc. would make your posts more 'intelligent' in their appearance and more likely to illicit an intelligent and informative response.


George
army.ca Staff


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