# JTFA air wing orders of dress



## PiperDown (15 Apr 2011)

anyone else notice lately the staggering variances of dress the Air Wing pers are walking around in?  ( I dont want to say airforce, as army guys attached to the air wing are suffering from the same disease)

I have noticed a lot of them wearing
1.  OTW shirts with standard arid pants.  
2. OTW shirts with flight pants in solid tan 
3. OTW shirts and flight pants in arid.  
4. one piece  light tan flight suits
5. one piece arid pattern flight suits.

and...... today I questioned a guy about a "flight specialist" badge he was wearing... It looked like the load masters wings, but had the two cross revolvers from the MP badge.  He said it was for door gunners.  Out of curiosity, I asked if if was an official badge and he replied they just made them.. and are "working on" getting it approved for official wear by Ottawa. ( and a badge made for the DEU uniform )

Is there no standard uniform anymore ? Or has it turned into an LCF free for all ?  Looks all kind of goofy if you ask me.

We used to see the occasional guy come in from the FOBs wearing an OTW shirt, but I can tell you these new dudes all over KAF are not combat arms pers.


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## brihard (15 Apr 2011)

I would have thought the door gunners would have come up with a cooler patch than that...


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## Strike (15 Apr 2011)

There are two different patterns of flight suits and probably not enough stock to go around, or some people were already deployed when the new stuff came out in Canada.

Regarding the OTW shirts, they're probably worn for the same reason the combat arms types wear them - they're cooler, more comfortable, and better fitting when worn under all the extra kit flight crews have to wear when doing their jobs.

As for the door gunner badge, ever heard the term, better to beg forgiveness than ask permission?  The qualification is pretty new to the CF and the badge that ends up being adopted will probably be a result of the various different designs these guys come up with.  Better than getting a badge that they had absolutely no input in because they were too scared of getting in trouble by trying to make up their own.


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## Bzzliteyr (15 Apr 2011)

As for the OTW shirts, they are officially issued now though I doubt that's the point of this post.


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## eurowing (15 Apr 2011)

Don't forget them damn hippie civies wearing shorts and t-shirts on the flight line.   >


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## Big Red (16 Apr 2011)

I think the large numbers of obese CF personnel look worse than those in different uniform combos.


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## Good2Golf (16 Apr 2011)

There are also a number of different ACE project trial AR patterns being trialled.  The same happened in Bosnia and Kosovo when we were developing ACE round one (TW one and 2-piece FR flying suits).

Are folks saying that they'd prefer to see the air crew wearing regular, non-FR CADPAT(AR) like the ground troops?  ???


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## bLUE fOX (17 Apr 2011)

I can say with a great degree of confidence that there are enough of the new pattern two piece flight suits to go around.  Mostly, people are asking for the old tan stock because it is already broken in and lighter weight material than the new AR Cadpat shirt and pants set.  Regarding the OTW Shirts, i don't believe any of the aircrew types were supposed to be getting those, considering number of people who actually go over the wire and were told "no, your not allowed them."


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## Good2Golf (17 Apr 2011)

> ...considering number of people who *actually* go over the wire...




Your use of prepositional modifies leaves a bit to be desired...perhaps you could enlighten us as to where aircrew go when they're not in the DFAC or sleeping?  :


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## dimsum (17 Apr 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Your use of prepositional modifies leaves a bit to be desired...perhaps you could enlighten us as to where aircrew go when their not in the DFAC or sleeping?  :



I think Eurowing knows of a couple of boxes where some aircrew hide out for a few hours at a time.  Whether they get AR flying suits and aircrew pay now is another issue...     :-\


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## bLUE fOX (17 Apr 2011)

Fair enough. But there are a number of folks truck drivers for example, who have requested the shirts and been denied them.  It's also my understanding that when not sleeping or in the DFAC's aircrew are in the air.  It's also my understanding that they're required to wear fire retardant clothing, and I'm pretty sure that the hybrid shirts are not.


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## Strike (17 Apr 2011)

bLUE fOX said:
			
		

> I can say with a great degree of confidence that there are enough of the new pattern two piece flight suits to go around.  Mostly, people are asking for the old tan stock because it is already broken in and lighter weight material than the new AR Cadpat shirt and pants set.  Regarding the OTW Shirts, i don't believe any of the aircrew types were supposed to be getting those, considering number of people who actually go over the wire and were told "no, your not allowed them."



BF - Where are you getting this info from regarding why aircrew are wearing old vs new flight suits and all that jazz?

The only reason I ask is that, just because there are a good number of suits doesn't mean they are readily available, especially to aircrew on a 9 month tour that are already in theatre.


Edited to add info.


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## PuckChaser (17 Apr 2011)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Your use of prepositional modifies leaves a bit to be desired...perhaps you could enlighten us as to where aircrew go when they're not in the DFAC or sleeping?  :



Sun tanning?  ;D


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## Good2Golf (17 Apr 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Sun tanning?  ;D



PC, I believe that only Maritime Aviators conduct 'tanning stations', Army Aviators go for the 'farmer tan' look which includes a tanned wrist to mid forearm from pushing up the sleeve to the elbow and hanging the outboard arm against the open window frame in a cool 'yeah, I've got the new kid on the controls while I practice the art of looking good and making radio calls in a really cool sounding voice' way of doing things...so I hear, anyway.


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## PuckChaser (17 Apr 2011)

Its ok, I crew commanded the Bison overseas that way, too.  >


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Apr 2011)

bLUE fOX said:
			
		

> Fair enough. But there are a number of folks truck drivers for example, who have requested the shirts and been denied them.  It's also my understanding that when not sleeping or in the DFAC's aircrew are in the air.  It's also my understanding that they're required to wear fire retardant clothing, and I'm pretty sure that the hybrid shirts are not.



It was my understanding that the goal of the shirts was a hybrid.  ie: part regular combat and part fire retardant?  At least that's what the ones from CPGear were to my knowledge.


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## OldSolduer (19 Apr 2011)

The shirt is approved for wear outside the wire. It is fire retardant, as well as much more comfortable than the regular CADPAT shirt.

Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.  And I agree with the fellow below me.


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## bison33 (19 Apr 2011)

Piper Down....you worry about what you have to wear and let the Air Wing worry about what they wear. Unless you are the Roto 11 SWO, the CHF(A) SWO or the KAF RSM, I'd suggest you keep your views to yourself and not approach the Air Wing pers IRT dress. As a Flight Engineer, nothing pisses me off more than some army type (or worse, a Navy type), who knows nothing of what is approved for wear for air crew but thinks he is now the subject matter expert on our dress. 
 I recall years ago, some Navy MP PO tried to tell me I could not wear my wedge while wearing the AF cadpat rain jacket over my 1 piece flying coverall. He though he was cool with his buddies trying to jack up an AF type but when I proceeded to question him on how a Navy MP was suddenly an expert on AF dress, he sputtered some bs so I laid into him. His buddies said nothing other than to laugh at the situation. 
As for the Door Gunners unofficial badge, all the rotos had some design, which is approved to wear while over in KAF and nowhere else.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Apr 2011)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Is there no standard uniform anymore ? Or has it turned into an LCF free for all ?  Looks all kind of goofy if you ask me.
> 
> ...




Unless things have changed a lot since I served, then: No. And, for the 35+ years I served, I never saw one - at home or overseas. 

Unlike others, I have some sympathy for your position. I'm a little surprised, given the money that DND appears to have spent/be spending on operational clothing and equipment that some components are still _mixing and matching_, but maybe that's the nature of the beast.

Perhaps we you they are congenitally unable to get field kit "right" or, perhaps, we you they have just given up trying to enforce _uniform_ standards for uniforms. Maybe it is for the best that many people wear non-issue boots.* Or maybe no one cares much, or even just enough.


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* Back, _circa_ 1965, when we first got "combat clothing" with modern, high cut (Kodiak) combat boots many of us (me included) still wore modified black or brown ankle boots (with a "lace-up and/or buckle-up" top stitched on). A good hobnail boot was better, in every aspect, as I recall, than the then new combat boots. Perhaps nothing has changed re: boots, flying suits, tac vests, sun glasses, naval combats, rain jackets, and, and, and, _ad infinitum_.


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## krustyrl (19 Apr 2011)

And perhaps those selected to carry out CC130 CH146 and CH147 Flying Ops and First Line Maintenance can submit a full size photo of themselves to Big Red for his approval prior to departure.  
I can see a new DAG form coming out for this new criteria.

 :facepalm:


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## aesop081 (19 Apr 2011)

The OP is clearly underemployed over there..........


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## SupersonicMax (19 Apr 2011)

What is it? Ready for an inspection or combat, not both?

Who gives a damn about this nit picky stuff.  They do their job, you do yours. Targets get destroyed.  Everyone is happy.


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## Towards_the_gap (19 Apr 2011)

Really, it's a case of apples and oranges.....

I am a 'combat arms type', and I didn't wear an OTW shirt for the simple reason that I couldn't justify spending $120 on something that I would most likely burn at the end of the tour. But if a JTF-A Air Wing dude wants to wear one, and his buddy doesn't, I really don't care whatsoever. I care that he can do his job and keep the airframe I am sitting in up and flying around, and not a flaming ball of wreckage somewhere. Just as he would care, if he found himself on a dismounted patrol, that I do my job well and keep him from getting blown up.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2011)

We've been over this item more than a few times.

It's old and worn.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Loachman (28 Apr 2011)

The issued OTW shirts have been approved as flying clothing in theatre as they reduce heat stress in cockpits and provide adequate flame protection. Stocks of two-piece CADPAT AR flying suits are available in theatre, however I suspect that few active aircrew are concerned enough about fashion trends to waste valuable time exchanging perfectly-serviceable plain tan flying suits for blotchy ones. Until existing stocks of tan flying clothing are used up through normal wear and tear, a mix will continue to be seen.


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