# Vancouver, Surrey voters elect new mayors; bring promises of more police, RCMP stays



## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

RCMP back in Surrey e.g., Raincoats on, raincoats off...



VANCOUVER — Voters in British Columbia ushered in a wave of political change throughout the province in municipal elections Saturday that saw new mayors elected in Vancouver and Surrey and other major communities. 

Vancouver businessman Ken Sim defeated Vancouver Mayor Kennedy Stewart, posting an overwhelming victory after losing the mayor's race to Stewart in 2018 by less than 1,000 votes.

"This is not the result we wanted," said Stewart, a former federal New Democrat MP. "But we have to respect it."

He said the past four years, with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, the opioid overdose crisis and housing issues were difficult for Vancouver, but "I do think we got the city through pretty hard times."

In Surrey, Mayor Doug McCallum was defeated by challenger Brenda Locke, a member of Surrey council and a former B.C. Liberal member of the legislature.

Locke's victory speech included a pledge to keep the RCMP in Surrey despite McCallum's initiative to replace the Mounties with a civic police force. 

"We need to keep the Surrey RCMP right here in Surrey," she said.

The municipal elections also saw major shifts across B.C., with new mayors elected in Kelowna, Kamloops, Penticton and Victoria.

Voters casting ballots Saturday in Vancouver said housing was the top campaign issue, with public safety and support for vulnerable people also on their minds.    
Across B.C. voters said they wanted to see politicians tackle the big issues confronting almost every community.  

"I think that definitely housing is a priority for everyone in Vancouver," said artist Taz Soleil. "For me, housing, especially for marginalized people, is a priority."
Soleil said she backed candidates who promised more housing options and supports for low income people.

Margaret Haugen, who accompanied a friend to vote at downtown Vancouver's Roundhouse Community Center, said affordable housing was the issue she was most concerned about this election.

"The Downtown Eastside has just gotten progressively worse," said Haugen, adding too many people there are living on the streets.

From Vancouver and Surrey to the smaller Interior communities of Princeton and Clearwater, campaigns focused on issues that typically fall beyond the municipal realm, such as affordable housing, health care, violent crime and mental health and addiction.

Stewart promised to triple Vancouver's housing goal over the next decade to 220,000 homes, while Sim pledged to hire 100 new police officers and 100 mental health nurses.

Stewart and Sim were among 15 mayoral candidates in Vancouver.

Vancouver released data showing increased numbers of advance voters this year compared to 2018.

In the 2022 election 65,026 people voted in advance polls in Vancouver, up from 48,986 in 2018.

The advance polling results were different in Victoria, the city said in a statement.

In 2022 4,613 people voted in advance polls in Victoria, slightly less than the 4,791 people who cast advance ballots in 2018.

In Clearwater, incumbent Mayor Merlin Blackwell said health care was the top issue in his North Thompson community, where the local hospital's emergency department experiences regular closures. 

He said small-town issues of dog parks and potholes were on the back burner in this campaign with residents wanting local government to improve health care and fight crime.

McCallum faced consecutive challenges, first at the ballot box against seven other candidates, then in court on Oct. 31 as he faces trial on a charge of public mischief. 

"We have work to do and we have our work cut out for us," said Locke, adding that includes improving health care, public safety and easing the permitting process for housing development.










						Vancouver, Surrey voters elect new mayors; bring promises of more police, RCMP stays
					

VANCOUVER — Voters in British Columbia ushered in a wave of political change throughout the province in municipal elections Saturday that saw new mayors elected in Vancouver and Surrey and other major communities.




					www.timescolonist.com


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## CBH99 (16 Oct 2022)

It seems like the voters have a billboard with the decisions being made over the last few years in BC.  

Hopefully the politicians and bureaucrats read the tea leaves, and realize that wishing for a rainbow doesn’t always result in one. 


I can’t really blame them for the housing crisis, The various factors at play were around long before any of them took office - and it’s a serious problem nationwide.  

Why are houses so expensive in Canada?  Not a bloody clue to be honest.  But if housing across the country is expensive, I can only imagine what people are going to be live somewhere that isn’t cold six months of the year.  

It’ll be interesting to see if decriminalizing drugs stays on the agenda for not…


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## Humphrey Bogart (16 Oct 2022)

Stew Young loses, Langford Now sweeps election – Goldstream News Gazette
					

Lillian Szpak only incumbent elected as Langford votes in six new faces




					www.goldstreamgazette.com
				




Well Langford booted Stew Young out and elected a bunch of NIMBY hippie bums in his place.  

They'll probably invite all the crackheads from downtown Vic to live in Langford 😄


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

Surrey Police is pretty significantly progressed. This isn’t an easy course reversal at this point. I wouldn’t take anything as a given yet just because the new mayor says so.


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## lenaitch (16 Oct 2022)

^^ Ya, from a distant observation point that doesn't see a whole lot of media, I get the same sense.  Reversing/negating/redirecting capital expenditures is one thing but there are a whole lot of HR issues that would come into play.

From an Ontario perspective, I've often wondered why municipal police services, and even municipalities, in the lower mainland and probably the southern Island have not be amalgamated.  Regionalization, consolidation, etc. in built-up areas has been going on here since the the early '70s.



CBH99 said:


> Why are houses so expensive in Canada?


Primarily, available land (physical, zoning constraints, etc.) coupled with the in-flow of people wanting to live there.


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## Booter (16 Oct 2022)

Absolutely fascinating To watch what happens next.


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## mariomike (16 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> From an Ontario perspective, I've often wondered why municipal police services, and even municipalities, in the lower mainland and probably the southern Island have not be amalgamated.  Regionalization, consolidation, etc. in built-up areas has been going on here since the the early '70s.



The mayor Canada's sixth largest city wants a divorce from the Region.


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bonnie-crombie-mississauga-mayor-call-for-separation-peel-region-1.6612230
		


"Rather be a lamp post in Mississauga,  than mayor of Brampton. "



CBH99 said:


> Why are houses so expensive in Canada?











						Why Are Houses So Expensive In Canada? 6 Reasons | House Grail
					

The fact is that homes in Canada are pricey. The astronomical prices are due to a confluence of factors that have come together to form the perfect storm in the real estate market.




					housegrail.com


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## lenaitch (16 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> The mayor Canada's sixth largest city wants a divorce from the Region.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/bonnie-crombie-mississauga-mayor-call-for-separation-peel-region-1.6612230


That pops up every now and again from Peel and I suppose not surprising in an election year.  It's always over money in vs. benefits from the Region.  It has bubbled up every now again in Chatham-Kent as well in terms of the imbalance between the larger city and surrounding smaller ones.  Both Mississauga and Brampton are much, much bigger that when they were formed in the early '70s and maybe they could be viable on their own.  They might want to be careful what they wish for; this provincial government could just as easily turn around and imposed a single-tier government for all three, or just the two and cut Caledon out of it.  It has shown it is not averse to getting up to its elbows in municipal affairs.


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> ^^ Ya, from a distant observation point that doesn't see a whole lot of media, I get the same sense.  Reversing/negating/redirecting capital expenditures is one thing but there are a whole lot of HR issues that would come into play.
> 
> From an Ontario perspective, I've often wondered why municipal police services, and even municipalities, in the lower mainland and probably the southern Island have not be amalgamated.  Regionalization, consolidation, etc. in built-up areas has been going on here since the the early '70s.
> 
> ...



Surrey has more than 150 officers on the road now, and more working office jobs. They’ve bought cars and guns. They have a collective agreement with one hell of a poison pill severance provision. There’s a lot already invested in this. It’s a city of more than 500k on paper, probably half again that with all the unofficial basement suites. Why should a city that size not have its own municipal police service?


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey Police is pretty significantly progressed. This isn’t an easy course reversal at this point. I wouldn’t take anything as a given yet just because the new mayor says so.


The BC Government gets a vote in this under the Police Act.

They are not going to allow anything to happen that leaves Surrey without effective policing.


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## Humphrey Bogart (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey has more than 150 officers on the road now, and more working office jobs. They’ve bought cars and guns. They have a collective agreement with one hell of a poison pill severance provision. There’s a lot already invested in this. It’s a city of more than 500k on paper, probably half again that with all the unofficial basement suites. Why should a city that size not have its own municipal police service?


So we can add this one to the list of #falsepromises 😁


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So we can add this one to the list of #falsepromises 😁


Pretty much, yeah.

What is your take on Langford? Stew Young has been a fixture out that way for years. Does Langford now go anti-development?


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> So we can add this one to the list of #falsepromises 😁


No, not yet. Locke may achieve a reversal. I’m saying that it would be difficult, not impossible. My “why would a city of 500k not have its own service?” is separate from that.

Maybe she does convince the province that her election indicates a mandate to scrap the SPS. McCallum was definitely talking out of his ass regarding true costs and that may give her an angle. She may well have a plan to pull this off. I would expect we’ll very quickly see a freeze on hiring.


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> No, not yet. Locke may achieve a reversal. I’m saying that it would be difficult, not impossible. My “why would a city of 500k not have its own service?” is separate from that.
> 
> Maybe she does convince the province that her election indicates a mandate to scrap the SPS. McCallum was definitely talking out of his ass regarding true costs and that may give her an angle. She may well have a plan to pull this off. I would expect we’ll very quickly see a freeze on hiring.


Again, the BC AG will be acutely monitoring this situation. She could find the Policing situation out of her hands.

In fact, the BC AG could take this opportunity to Regionalize the entire Lower Mainland and largely sideline the Mayors.


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Again, the BC AG will be acutely monitoring this situation. She could find the Policing situation out of her hands.
> 
> In fact, the BC AG could take this opportunity to Regionalize the entire Lower Mainland and largely sideline the Mayors.


And stomp on mayors and councils that _do_ have functioning police services or effective RCMP detachments? That wouldn’t make much sense. I think regionalization of policing services would be a discussion that would need municipal buy-in rather than imposing it. They would have to make a compelling case that it would be a significant improvement over RCMP, and that it wouldn’t be more appropriate for there to be municipal services for the large municipalities.

Arguably, BC should consider a provincial police service for everything that’s not municipal. Basically, replace RCMP in non-federal roles. But the quiet prt that politicians don’t like to say out loud is that going with RCMP brings a direct, immediate, and considerable federal government subsidy that would be expensive to abandon.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey has more than 150 officers on the road now, and more working office jobs. They’ve bought cars and guns. They have a collective agreement with one hell of a poison pill severance provision. There’s a lot already invested in this. It’s a city of more than 500k on paper, probably half again that with all the unofficial basement suites. Why should a city that size not have its own municipal police service?



The key defining difference between the two campaigns, AFAIK, was 'RCMP stays' and 'RCMP goes'. I'm pretty sure the new mayor isn't going to be 'allowed' to not bring the RCMP back in.



SeaKingTacco said:


> Pretty much, yeah.
> 
> What is your take on Langford? Stew Young has been a fixture out that way for years. Does Langford now go anti-development?



Langford has been run like a 3rd world dictatorship by Stew Young and his hench - people, pretty much. I believe the incoming crew are looking for a little more engagement and 'depth' in the development process of the community, which has apparently outstripped the sustaining infrastructure.

Based on all the terraces they've blasted into the mountainsides out there, so they can build townhouse developments easier, it looks like they're stuck with the 'open pit mine' ambiance though .


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> And stomp on mayors and councils that _do_ have functioning police services or effective RCMP detachments? That wouldn’t make much sense. I think regionalization of policing services would be a discussion that would need municipal buy-in rather than imposing it. They would have to make a compelling case that it would be a significant improvement over RCMP, and that it wouldn’t be more appropriate for there to be municipal services for the large municipalities.
> 
> Arguably, BC should consider a provincial police service for everything that’s not municipal. Basically, replace RCMP in non-federal roles. But the quiet prt that politicians don’t like to say out loud is that going with RCMP brings a direct, immediate, and considerable federal government subsidy that would be expensive to abandon.


I am not saying what should/should not be done, but Surrey is one of the key Municipalities for policing in the Lower Mainland. If they make a hash of policing, it effects the entire GVRD (Maybe even the whole country,  given the ports, railways, etc.).

If this goes messy, BC might have to step in.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am not saying what should/should not be done, but Surrey is one of the key Municipalities for policing in the Lower Mainland. If they make a hash of policing, it effects the entire GVRD (Maybe even the whole country,  given the ports, railways, etc.).
> 
> If this goes messy*, BC might have to step in.*


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> The key defining difference between the two campaigns, AFAIK, was 'RCMP stays' and 'RCMP goes'. I'm pretty sure the new mayor isn't going to be 'allowed' to not bring the RCMP back in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I get that and have looked on in horror as entire mountaintops have been blasted flat.

The problem is: that actually did provide an outlet for reasonably affordable housing in the region.

If Langford is out of the game, Victoria, Colwood, View Royal, Esquimalt and Saanich will have to up their housing strategies.

What do you think the odds of that are?


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## Good2Golf (16 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> If Langford is out of the game, Victoria, Colwood, View Royal, Esquimalt and Saanich will have to up their housing strategies.
> 
> What do you think the odds of that are?


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Oh I get that and have looked on in horror as entire mountaintops have been blasted flat.
> 
> The problem is: that actually did provide an outlet for reasonably affordable housing in the region.
> 
> ...



I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that if they just try to avoid more debacles like the (buddy buddy deal initiated) new condo tower they will have to demolish, they might be able to do a little better with what they have.


The structural engineer of an ill-fated Langford high-rise was unqualified to design a project of that scope, according to Engineers and Geoscientists BC.

The investigative committee of Engineers and Geoscientists BC began an investigation into structural engineer Brian McClure after the 11-storey Danbrook One building in Langford had its residency permit revoked in December 2019.

Last week, the committee announced that it was imposing an interim practice restriction order on McClure because of safety failings during the building's construction.









						Danbrook One engineer was unqualified for Langford high-rise project, investigators find
					

The structural engineer of an ill-fated Langford high-rise was unqualified to design a project of that scope, according to Engineers and Geoscientists BC.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that if they just try to avoid more debacles like the (buddy buddy deal initiated) new condo tower they will have to demolish, they might be able to do a little better with what they have.
> 
> 
> The structural engineer of an ill-fated Langford high-rise was unqualified to design a project of that scope, according to Engineers and Geoscientists BC.
> ...


I saw that and it is a problem.


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am not saying what should/should not be done, but Surrey is one of the key Municipalities for policing in the Lower Mainland. If they make a hash of policing, it effects the entire GVRD (Maybe even the whole country,  given the ports, railways, etc.).
> 
> If this goes messy, BC might have to step in.



And the province would, as they did when Vancouver was going to cut its police budget. The province bears responsibility to ensure that cities have effective policing, and the province can step in if it must. But whether that would extend to the province imposing a regional police service on a municipality that doesn’t want one is another matter.

The RCMP police municipalities in BC because they are also the “provincial police” in provincial law. The province could legislate an independent provincial police service to step into that role. That would be a very lengthy process though.

One way or another, I think Surrey is a bellweather for the future of RCMP contract policing over the next couple decades. Surrey has already provided some real tangible information on actual costs versus what politicians have claimed.


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## RangerRay (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey has more than 150 officers on the road now, and more working office jobs. They’ve bought cars and guns. They have a collective agreement with one hell of a poison pill severance provision. There’s a lot already invested in this. It’s a city of more than 500k on paper, probably half again that with all the unofficial basement suites. *Why should a city that size not have its own municipal police service?*


British Columbia is definitely an anomaly in this regard. Whereas most cities and many small towns across the country have their own forces, I’ve always found it odd that the vast majority of municipalities in BC big and small use the RCMP. I am sure cost has something to do with it. There was a big push by the Province over 10 years ago to explore bringing back the BCPP when the RCMP’s contract was up, but the costs sunk that idea. I remember at the time, many of the provincial law enforcement agencies were angling for more powers and authorities so their agency would become the foundation of a new BCPP. 

Regionalization was tried in Victoria. In the end, only Esquimalt merged with VicPD. Esquimalt quickly regretted it when all their former police units were sent downtown. Oak Bay, Saanich and Central Saanich saw that and said “No thanks!”  I thought I heard that Esquimalt has since left VicPD, but maybe someone who knows better can educate me.


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> British Columbia is definitely an anomaly in this regard. Whereas most cities and many small towns across the country have their own forces, I’ve always found it odd that the vast majority of municipalities in BC big and small use the RCMP. I am sure cost has something to do with it. There was a big push by the Province over 10 years ago to explore bringing back the BCPP when the RCMP’s contract was up, but the costs sunk that idea. I remember at the time, many of the provincial law enforcement agencies were angling for more powers and authorities so their agency would become the foundation of a new BCPP.
> 
> Regionalization was tried in Victoria. In the end, only Esquimalt merged with VicPD. Esquimalt quickly regretted it when all their former police units were sent downtown. Oak Bay, Saanich and Central Saanich saw that and said “No thanks!”  I thought I heard that Esquimalt has since left VicPD, but maybe someone who knows better can educate me.


Esquimault is still a division of Victoria Police. That’s limited to Esquimault proper, though. Outside of the city (Langford, etc) is West Shore RCMP.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> *Esquimault is still a division of Victoria Police*. That’s limited to Esquimault proper, though. Outside of the city (Langford, etc) is West Shore RCMP.



And they're not happy about it, apparently.









						Esquimalt votes to end police agreement with Victoria
					

The Township of Esquimalt is looking to exit its agreement with Victoria and the Victoria Police Department, which sees the two communities sharing an amalgamated police force. Esquimalt and Victoria are currently under a 10-year agreement, which is up for renewal the end of this year. On...




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


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## Booter (16 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> British Columbia is definitely an anomaly in this regard. Whereas most cities and many small towns across the country have their own forces, I’ve always found it odd that the vast majority of municipalities in BC big and small use the RCMP. I am sure cost has something to do with it. There was a big push by the Province over 10 years ago to explore bringing back the BCPP when the RCMP’s contract was up, but the costs sunk that idea. I remember at the time, many of the provincial law enforcement agencies were angling for more powers and authorities so their agency would become the foundation of a new BCPP.
> 
> Regionalization was tried in Victoria. In the end, only Esquimalt merged with VicPD. Esquimalt quickly regretted it when all their former police units were sent downtown. Oak Bay, Saanich and Central Saanich saw that and said “No thanks!”  I thought I heard that Esquimalt has since left VicPD, but maybe someone who knows better can educate me.


These provinces that have these discussions all have WOEFULLY inadequate provincial agencies currently, the BC Sheriffs system is filled with guys trying to make a broken agency productive, 

They want to wave a wand and create provincial forces in the media- meanwhile- the provincial non-police agencies in these places are completely neglected and backwards- unable to expand and take over their duties in totality- it’s ignorance and politics that makes them make such stupid statements while their home developed provincial agencies languish and make due.

They can’t manage a department of a couple hundred effectively but are so quick to imagineer solutions they don’t actually understand, 

They have gorged on the cost savings of a one size fits all RCMP tasking- that they depend on to fill all their gaps and then shockingly they can’t actually divorce from the organization because they can’t get over their addiction to a Mountie as a quick solution to courts, or health, or filling gaps for conservation or the EMO office.


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## lenaitch (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> And stomp on mayors and councils that _do_ have functioning police services or effective RCMP detachments? That wouldn’t make much sense. I think regionalization of policing services would be a discussion that would need municipal buy-in rather than imposing it. They would have to make a compelling case that it would be a significant improvement over RCMP, and that it wouldn’t be more appropriate for there to be municipal services for the large municipalities.
> 
> Arguably, BC should consider a provincial police service for everything that’s not municipal. Basically, replace RCMP in non-federal roles. But the quiet prt that politicians don’t like to say out loud is that going with RCMP brings a direct, immediate, and considerable federal government subsidy that would be expensive to abandon.


I realize it is different times but that's exactly what Ontario did back in the 1970's under Bill Davis when it regionalized the suburbs in the GTA, as well as Hamilton, Niagara, Muskoka (sort of), Sudbury and Ottawa (initially into Ottawa-Carleton) and later Chatham-Kent. I don't recall a groundswell of municipal governments clamouring for any of this.  Later governments pushed 'county restructuring' where larger numbers of local governments were amalgamated.  Even more recently, the provincial government amalgamated Toronto into a single-tier government and later downsized its council.  Seeing as it has spanned several governments, I don't know if that indicates the provincial government is more bold in overseeing its 'inefficient children', just views them as playthings or some other over-arching rationale.

Not wanting to get into a debate about local vs. contract policing, but there is probably a study or two out there that suggest a level at which locally managed services are indicated.  It has to be more than simply 'city x is big so they deserve it'.   Conversely, many proponents of provincial policing don't appreciate how costly it is, particularly for the far-flung, sparsely populated areas.  They see taking on Mission or Kelowna but not Telegraph Creek.

For policing, Mike Harris in Ontario pretty much left it up to the municipalities; either do it yourself or contract somebody else (including the OPP) but set up the rules.  Although I don't fully understand the details, Quebec went more prescriptive and laid out which municipalities had to maintain a Service and those that had to use the SQ.


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## RangerRay (16 Oct 2022)

I also note that only two communities east of the Coast Mountains, Nelson (pop. ~10,000) and the Stlʼatlʼimx Tribal Police Service that serve the Stlʼatlʼimx indigenous people in the Lillooet/Mount Currie areas.


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## RangerRay (16 Oct 2022)

Getting back to the civic election results, hopefully these changes in councils and mayors will see more grown-up thinking and management in city halls there.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Getting back to the civic election results, hopefully these changes in councils and mayors will see more grown-up thinking and management in city halls there.



That's what Langford seems to be hoping for:

Young is credited with turning Langford into a regional powerhouse for housing and business development, and a sporting and recreational mecca. But he has been criticized for his close ties with local developers and for being curt and dismissive with members of the public expressing concerns at public hearings about mega-projects such as highrises in Langford’s downtown.

Langford Now said it isn’t against development, but wants to take the time to measure impacts on the residents.









						Langford election results: Scott Goodmanson topples longtime mayor
					

The newcomer candidate beat Stew Young — the seven-term, 30-year mayor — with 53 per cent of the vote.




					www.timescolonist.com


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Oct 2022)

For now I would review where the Surrey RCMP are weak in dealing with stuff and have the existing Surrey police focus on those areas. Perhaps schools, small gangs and community should be the SPS mandates. General street level and international threats are RCMP mandates?


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## lenaitch (16 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> For now I would review where the Surrey RCMP are weak in dealing with stuff and have the existing Surrey police focus on those areas. Perhaps schools, small gangs and community should be the SPS mandates. General street level and international threats are RCMP mandates?


Having two concentric police services is astonishingly inefficient and a potential recipe for disaster.  I can only assume there is a transition plan with one service growing and the other pulling back.  They either need to continue with that or reverse it.


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## Kilted (16 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> That pops up every now and again from Peel and I suppose not surprising in an election year.  It's always over money in vs. benefits from the Region.  It has bubbled up every now again in Chatham-Kent as well in terms of the imbalance between the larger city and surrounding smaller ones.  Both Mississauga and Brampton are much, much bigger that when they were formed in the early '70s and maybe they could be viable on their own.  They might want to be careful what they wish for; this provincial government could just as easily turn around and imposed a single-tier government for all three, or just the two and cut Caledon out of it.  It has shown it is not averse to getting up to its elbows in municipal affairs.


I can see it now, the City of Brampton-Mississauga in a 1998 Toronto-type of way.


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Having two concentric police services is astonishingly inefficient and a potential recipe for disaster.  I can only assume there is a transition plan with one service growing and the other pulling back.  They either need to continue with that or reverse it.


Maybe, but it is, what it is and since they currently have two police forces, get the smaller one to focus in on very local tasks and let the RCMP cover off general duties and federal mandate stuff. I know for a fact that the school resource officer program there is in dire need of bodies and you could use most of them just for that and combating youth gangs.


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Maybe, but it is, what it is and since they currently have two police forces, get the smaller one to focus in on very local tasks and let the RCMP cover off general duties and federal mandate stuff. I know for a fact that the school resource officer program there is in dire need of bodies and you could use most of them just for that and combating youth gangs.


Surrey RCMP detachment members don’t work federal stuff. There’s an entirely separate federal policing business line within RCMP for things like national security, transnational organized crime, and border enforcement. Separately, BC has integrated (RCMP + municipal) units for provincial level organized crime, traffic enforcement, etc. Surrey RCMP and Surrey Police Service fully overlap and are in the process of transitioning the one to the other. Both have constables and front line supervisors on the road, in some cases under each others’ supervision. The transition, so far as I can tell, is early into the messiest and most confusing part. @RedFive could probably enlighten us further.


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## RedFive (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey RCMP detachment members don’t work federal stuff. There’s an entirely separate federal policing business line within RCMP for things like national security, transnational organized crime, and border enforcement. Separately, BC has integrated (RCMP + municipal) units for provincial level organized crime, traffic enforcement, etc. Surrey RCMP and Surrey Police Service fully overlap and are in the process of transitioning the one to the other. Both have constables and front line supervisors on the road, in some cases under each others’ supervision. The transition, so far as I can tell, is early into the messiest and most confusing part. @RedFive could probably enlighten us further.


It's a bloody mess is what I can say for sure. As far as where it goes from here, everything is speculation as the reversion to RCMP the new mayor wants hasn't been explored or implemented yet. Expect her to move fast on it though, one way or another.

Outcomes I can foresee:

1. SPS is stood down, and the RCMP takes "back" over. We never stopped being the Police of Jurisdiction, so many feel this is the most likely COA. Problem is the RCMP is critically short on members nation wide and Surrey Detachment is the biggest we have, staffing this will be a nightmare for the members still in Surrey. The plan is, as far as I know, to try and retain as many SPS members as will stay and start offering recruits from the Lower Mainland a guaranteed post back to the LMD.

2. The Province refuses to allow the City to back out of its Police force, and things move ahead. If that's the case, I have heard from SPS members that they feel once there is a decisive "this IS happening" there will be a flood of new hires of people who are interested in the move but not interested in the uncertainty. I've also heard from NPF (RCMP union) reps that if this is the case they're going to play hardball on getting RCMP members out ASAP, whether the City has its shit together or not. Obviously not to the point of jeopardizing public safety, but service levels would drop to painfully low levels.

3. Locke learns how much has been spent and how much it will cost to revert and begrudgingly moves ahead, while proposing a regional force with Langley Township and Langley City (Both RCMP). The SPS collective agreement says that laid off members will receive 18 months pay as severance, that's an awful lot of money.

All I can say is the overwhelming majority of "the troops" are pleased the city voted in favour of Locke, who has been adamantly pro-RCMP throughout this process. The previous Mayor was at best antagonistic to the RCMP and its membership, and I suspect there's an all around feeling of satisfaction watching him get turfed. However, there are concerns that this is just going to lead to more delay, shorter watches and limiting career moves. I can only speak for myself when I say I don't care who polices Surrey, I just want them to make up their damn minds so I can plan my next couple years and prepare to move on. Mobility was one of the biggest reasons I chose the RCMP and its looking like I may never leave my first post...


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## brihard (16 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> 2. The Province refuses to allow the City to back out of its Police force, and things move ahead. If that's the case, I have heard from SPS members that they feel once there is a decisive "this IS happening" there will be a flood of new hires of people who are interested in the move but not interested in the uncertainty. I've also heard from NPF (RCMP union) reps that if this is the case they're going to play hardball on getting RCMP members out ASAP, whether the City has its shit together or not. Obviously not to the point of jeopardizing public safety, but service levels would drop to painfully low levels.



NPF would be told to kick rocks. The province has legal authority to ensure adequate policing services, and would coordinate between RCMP and SPS to ensure the required minimums are there. NPF might be at the table as an observer and to offer input, but would have no power, any more than they do over any other staffing matters. Staffing / posting of members between RCMP detachments falls squarely within 'management's right to manage', and NPF would have no power to get members out of Surrey any faster than RCMP management deems appropriate. Staffing levels between RCMP and SPS are already at the minimum level acceptable to the province. RCMP will decline further only as SPS is able to bring people in and put them on the road.

Any actions will have to go through the Surrey Police Services Board, and anything major will need signoff by the province. This isn't going to be quick or, likely, particularly clean. I wouldn't be surprised to see Locke's council push a legal challenge on the 'poison pill' 18 month severance for all SPS members already hired.


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

She says they'll save alot of money sticking with the RCMP:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573503909561520133


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Surrey RCMP detachment members don’t work federal stuff. There’s an entirely separate federal policing business line within RCMP for things like national security, transnational organized crime, and border enforcement. Separately, BC has integrated (RCMP + municipal) units for provincial level organized crime, traffic enforcement, etc. Surrey RCMP and Surrey Police Service fully overlap and are in the process of transitioning the one to the other. Both have constables and front line supervisors on the road, in some cases under each others’ supervision. The transition, so far as I can tell, is early into the messiest and most confusing part. @RedFive could probably enlighten us further.


I have friend working Surrey as RCMP, he tells me that the staff shortages are painful, he did 5-6 years on the streets there, I think people would be shocked at how few police are on the street at any one time. Seems they have a high burnout rate there, mostly do to the interaction with their clients.


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> She says they'll save alot of money sticking with the RCMP:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573503909561520133


SPS Board not going down without a fight Surrey Police Board confident police transition continues despite pro-RCMP mayor - Energeticcity.ca


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## daftandbarmy (16 Oct 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> SPS Board not going down without a fight Surrey Police Board confident police transition continues despite pro-RCMP mayor - Energeticcity.ca



Well, well, well...


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## lenaitch (17 Oct 2022)

Can folks here confirm that only BC communities that have their own municipal police service have a Police Board.  If true, does RCMP leadership have any formal accountability to their contracted municipalities?  Just curious.


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## Booter (17 Oct 2022)

As far as I know the contracted communities are part of a consultative process where they set priorities and those priorities are measured for performance. 

It’s not a true police board relationship however. A few years back I did one for a large municipal contract, and where their needs ran contrary to Ottawa policy they we were told to get f***ed and we had to adhere to national, even where the city would pay 100% of cost. 

The cities response was “then we need our own force” and I agreed with them. 🤷‍♀️


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## daftandbarmy (17 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Can folks here confirm that only BC communities that have their own municipal police service have a Police Board.  If true, does RCMP leadership have any formal accountability to their contracted municipalities?  Just curious.



'Contract' suggests 'accountability', but I don't know how those contracts roll so....


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## brihard (17 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Can folks here confirm that only BC communities that have their own municipal police service have a Police Board.  If true, does RCMP leadership have any formal accountability to their contracted municipalities?  Just curious.


That appears to be the case. Surrey does have its own Police Service Board, and they are the legal employer of Surrey Police Service.

I can’t speak to exactly how the contract accountability works.


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## Booter (17 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> That appears to be the case. Surrey does have its own Police Service Board, and they are the legal employer of Surrey Police Service.
> 
> I can’t speak to exactly how the contract accountability works.


I could probably to a specific question 🤷‍♀️


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## lenaitch (17 Oct 2022)

Thanks for the responses.  I was just curious how the accountability worked for RCMP contract policing in BC (and I supposed, by extension, all of the other contract provinces).  In Ontario, every municipality that either maintains its own service or contracts another service, including the OPP, to provide policing services, has to maintain a Police Services Board.  There are a variety of rules regarding composition, size, etc.  If the OPP provides services without a contract (so-called 'fee for service' coverage), that municipality has to maintain a Police Advisory Committee.


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## Booter (18 Oct 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Thanks for the responses.  I was just curious how the accountability worked for RCMP contract policing in BC (and I supposed, by extension, all of the other contract provinces).  In Ontario, every municipality that either maintains its own service or contracts another service, including the OPP, to provide policing services, has to maintain a Police Services Board.  There are a variety of rules regarding composition, size, etc.  If the OPP provides services without a contract (so-called 'fee for service' coverage), that municipality has to maintain a Police





lenaitch said:


> Thanks for the responses.  I was just curious how the accountability worked for RCMP contract policing in BC (and I supposed, by extension, all of the other contract provinces).  In Ontario, every municipality that either maintains its own service or contracts another service, including the OPP, to provide policing services, has to maintain a Police Services Board.  There are a variety of rules regarding composition, size, etc.  If the OPP provides services without a contract (so-called 'fee for service' coverage), that municipality has to maintain a Police Advisory Committee.


That advisory committee isn’t really a thing for us, there is a calculation based off population that’s national- and then there is what the province is willing to chip in on or the municipality.

the type of contract can be with the province or a municipality- at the beginning of the year stakeholders from each community served- if it’s say a detachment for several communities- are canvassed for their priorities. Those are included for the year and reported on. They have little say really when it comes to tailoring their service locally, they will sometimes get into a thing where it’s like “we pay for 18% of night shift and community x only pays 12- so we need to see a police car x amount of times” and new det coms will try and do that. It doesn’t work.

A municipality that owns it detachment has slightly more control but in a meaningful sense they can’t really control things- like say community x wants stolen vehicles dealt with. That’s the priority. They can’t say “we want to purchase this system that allows us to deal with stolen cars”- our policies keep that off the table.

It is a very common statement for a municipality to suggest they want their own force so they can control the how. Cape Breton regional police came about that way- and the flip flopping of control over what in that patchwork is directly related to the demand for meaningful control.

When they see the price of having that extra control that’s where they back off.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Oct 2022)

Meanwhile, in Surrey:

Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum returns city car with major damage: Councillor​Surrey RCMP said it has investigated and concluded there was no criminal offence related to the driver of the vehicle

The Surrey RCMP has determined there is no criminal investigation after a City of Surrey-owned car was returned with significant front-end damage to a works yard.

Surrey Coun. Jack Hundial said the car appears to be the one driven by outgoing Mayor Doug McCallum throughout his term in office. Hundial posted a picture of the white Buick with damage above the passenger-side wheel well on Twitter on Sunday, a day after McCallum lost the civic election to former Surrey councillor Brenda Locke.









						Surrey Mayor Doug McCallum returns city car with major damage: Councillor
					

Surrey RCMP said it has investigated and concluded there was no criminal offence related to the driver of the vehicle




					vancouversun.com
				





And, they have a green light to pull the plug on the SPS:









						Surrey's new mayor will be allowed scrap transition to municipal police force
					

The B.C. government has to sign off on any change to policing in Surrey – but Solicitor General Mike Farnworth cancelling the transition to a municipal force is the city's choice to make.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


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## RangerRay (31 Oct 2022)

Gold, Jerry!  Gold!



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mccallum-public-mischief-trial-1.6635694


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## daftandbarmy (1 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Gold, Jerry!  Gold!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mccallum-public-mischief-trial-1.6635694



This woman for Prime Minister!

"His face is kind of peely and scaly, so I made a reference to him having a scaly face ... I called him a scaly-faced motherf--ker," Johnstone said.


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## RangerRay (1 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> This woman for Prime Minister!
> 
> "His face is kind of peely and scaly, so I made a reference to him having a scaly face ... I called him a scaly-faced motherf--ker," Johnstone said.


She was on FIRE 🔥!  No wonder McCallum pretended she drove over his foot (allegedly).


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## Halifax Tar (1 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Gold, Jerry!  Gold!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/mccallum-public-mischief-trial-1.6635694



She has to have been a CPO at some point. 

I think Im in love 💘


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## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> She was on FIRE 🔥!  No wonder McCallum pretended she drove over his foot (allegedly).


They caught the whole thing on surveillance video (it's hard to see, but in the upper middle portion of the screen)

He is screwed; no way she ran over his foot as he didn't react at all, walked normally after that, and then went and did his shopping.


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## Weinie (1 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> They caught the whole thing on surveillance video (it's hard to see, but in the upper middle portion of the screen)
> 
> He is screwed; no way she ran over his foot as he didn't react at all, walked normally after that, and then went and did his shopping.


He formulated his revenge while doing his shopping, whilst oblivious that everything is on CCTV these days. Dumbass deserves everything he gets.


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## Good2Golf (1 Nov 2022)

Weinie said:


> He formulated his revenge while doing his shopping, whilst oblivious that everything is on CCTV these days. Dumbass deserves everything he gets.


He’s pretty high on the F-around-n-Find-Out scale…


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