# Mess Dinner Tradition



## Sig_Des (22 Sep 2005)

Anyone know what the traditional reason is for members not getting up from the table to go to the bathroom at a men's mess dinner?
is this an forces-wide tradition, or is it unit level?

Example: At our Regimental Men's Mess Dinners, tradition dictates that we cannot get up from the table during the course of the program, ie the meal, the toasts, the anthems, until we have our "7.62" minute break, where we can get up and go, followed by the speeches.

If someone gets up during this time, their chair is removed, and they have to request permission from the PMC to rejoin the table in front of the whole regiment, which can be embarassing for them and amusing for us. I remember one member, who had been at the sauce a bit, crying when she found her chair gone.

This also makes for some improvisation on members parts...many are the guys who would rather relieve themselves in a cup under the table than be faced with the embarassment of the Regiment.

My question is: Does anyone know the story behind this tradition?


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## PViddy (22 Sep 2005)

I believe we follow similiar traditions in the AF.  if you needed to be excused permission from the PMC must be sought.  It was considered "offensive" to the PMC and the head table if you just got up and left.  Therfore you must wait till the break or....come up with other means.

As far as the chair going missing, that is just all in good fun as the PMC is also responsible for the entertainment for the evening somtimes via the Vice PMC.  Chairs will go missing, name cards switched, people will be "set up" etc.

As i don't know the full story behind where this rule of etiquette came from, i will leave it to the forum elders...lol.


cheers

PV


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## Michael OLeary (22 Sep 2005)

The "tradition" of not leaving the room until the dinner concluded is most likely an exaggeration of previous custom and allowances, complicated by not exactly outlining all the options to subalterns. 

A few relevant extracts:

Customs of the Service
(Advice to those newly commissioned)
by A.H.S.
1939


> To indicate that dinner is concluded and those officers who wish to leave the table may do so, the President will stand for the second time. If an officer for purposes connected with duty or any other urgent reason desires to leave the dinner table before such an indication has been given, he must walk round to the President and ask permission to leave.



And from my own site's page on Mess Dinners:

http://regimentalrogue.com/srsub/mess_dinners.htm



> 32.     Traditionally, officers were expected to remain at the table throughout the meal, regardless of duration and the possible effects of consuming wines with each course. More experienced officers may recall dinners last four hours or more with copious quantities of wine. Despite the inevitable cautions to remain in place by those who delight in seeing others in discomfort or embarrassing situations, officers who must leave the table for urgent reasons should do so. If time permits, a note passed to the PMC via the Mess Sergeant requesting permission to leave the table should be proffered. In any case, the immature taunts of others for summarily leaving the table remains preferable to the potentially more embarrassing results of 'toughing it out.'


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## Sig_Des (22 Sep 2005)

Awesome link, thanks.

Anybody have any good mess dinner stories?


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## dutchie (22 Sep 2005)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Awesome link, thanks.
> 
> Anybody have any good mess dinner stories?



None that are fit for public consumption.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2005)

While we don't strictly enforce it anymore, we do honour the tradition of it, by only getting up for the bathroom if, you must. As it has now been recognised you can do yourself serious physical harm, the PC police have overruled the old tradition, using the safe medical argument. But again, it's for the bathroom only. Not to go out in twos and threes to loiter, chat or smoke.

Female guests were never required to remain at the table till the end. They were allowed to refresh themselves as they saw fit. And there was always plenty of fellows to escort them away from the table. Just make sure you come back when she does.


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## The_Falcon (22 Sep 2005)

Thats what kilts and empty wine bottles are for!  ;D


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## geo (22 Sep 2005)

By tradition, members were prevented from leaving the table prior to the toast to the Queen.
There is no rule that stipulates when the toast to the Queen takes place.
Many years ago, to take into acount the weakening blader control of some WW2 old timers, the toast to the Queen was moved to the start of the Dinner............
From then on in - it is acceptable for members to excuse themselves from the table to take care of business...... 
Many messes have moved speaches to the begining of the dinner - do the talking while everyone is still relatively sober... possibly between the soup and the main course,

In the end - each Regiment has it's own tratidition to follow - the question becomes - what is tratidion and what is a custom without standing?

Chimo!


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## Gayson (22 Sep 2005)

We have that rule in my unit for our regimental christmas dinner.

Last year was my first one and no one warned me about this rule.  I though I was going to explode!   :-X


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## the 48th regulator (23 Sep 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Thats what kilts and empty wine bottles are for!   ;D



heheheheee how true it is...just don't use the warm wine bottle!

that's all I will say... 

dileas

tess


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## swanita (23 Sep 2005)

Self catheterization anyone?!?!?  ;D


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## geo (23 Sep 2005)

Hmm.... you can always volunteer to be 3rd vice and have an excuse to duck out to work out matters with the Caterer...... timing is, as always, important.


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## Part-Timer (23 Sep 2005)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Does puking on the RSM's oxfords count? ;D


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## Sig_Des (23 Sep 2005)

Part-Timer said:
			
		

> Does puking on the RSM's oxfords count? ;D



Good God......Yes!!!!


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## The_Falcon (24 Sep 2005)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> heheheheee how true it is...just don't use the warm wine bottle!
> 
> that's all I will say...
> 
> ...



That doesn't always work 2 years ago they were putting the "refilled" bottles in the snow to chill them ;D  One poor unfortunate soul who shall remain nameless here (not me, I was quite sober, and knew what was going on),  did not notice the pungent odour before consuming the "wine".


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## North Star (24 Sep 2005)

Yeah...never a fan of the bottle thing. The staff having to deal with drunken subbies is bad enough...the last thing I want to shaft them with are bottles of pee.

I remember serving a mess dinner as a Pte once before they did away with the practice... was an ok job... free booze, good food, etc. Thankfully, no bottles of piss. Had there been, I would have returned them to their owners in a violent fashion, irregardless of rank.


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## Spanky (24 Sep 2005)

Mess dinner stories?  I'm not sure I can remember too many first hand, but I did hear about some the next morning. :blotto:


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Sep 2005)

Spanky said:
			
		

> Mess dinner stories?   I'm not sure I can remember too many first hand, but I did hear about some the next morning. :blotto:



Don't you dare!!


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## Spanky (25 Sep 2005)

00:54:27?  What are you doing here?  Aren't you supposed to be at a dinner?  Don't worry I won't relate any stories about you...... no one would buy it anyway.  Everyone knows you would NEVER misbehave at a mess dinner.


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## George Wallace (28 Sep 2005)

A good question to ask first.....are you thinking of a 'true' Mess Dinner or a Formal Dining-In?  It seems that many today confuse the two.


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## geo (28 Sep 2005)

good point,
Mixed dining-in & / or formal dining-in wouldn't require much in the way of a head table, guests of honour, toasts and whatever. 
Full blown mess dinner.... whoa!!

Note that some units & messes have mess dinners every year to comemorate a battle, an armistice or something of the sort while others will only have mess dinners at the retirement of a CO or RSM.

Note that many mess' have a lot (dwindling) of older members who do not have the same bladder control as a strapping young fella has (before he reaches 50). To impose and expect our respected guests to "tie a knot in it" is not really reasonnable IMHO...

Messes have adressed this in many creative ways - respecting protocol while having respect for the old timers........ and inserting the Toast to the Queen earlier on in the dinner is a very valid alternative.


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## dutchie (28 Sep 2005)

At our annual Men's Dinner, the expectation of remaining in your seat until the toast to the Queen only applies to serving members and potential recruits. Vets and Association members can get up to visit the washroom if they like, but even still, all try and hold it.


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## George Wallace (28 Sep 2005)

The Annual Men's Dinner may be held in the Mess, but it really isn't a Mess Dinner.   Mess Dinners are more formal, and seldom have guests other than those a the Head Table, so many of the points being made about the problems with people's bladders are not really as prevalent as in other formal dining-ins.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Sep 2005)

You may want to consider that our 21st century dinner night* customs reflect (but do not mirror) the general, civilian dining customs of the _high Victorian_ and _Edwardian_ periods.

Officers were gentlemen and gentlemen dined in some state, most evenings, even 'at home.'  The modern tuxedo is a take-off of the _Edwardian_ dinner jacket â â€œ which was meant to be informal wear: not requiring a tail-coat and stiff, boiled front shirt.

In the '50s and '60s, in the Canadian Army, we still observed full, formal dinner rituals at 'mess dinners' and we had a more relaxed 'dining in' format.

Mess Dinner:

o	Mess kit for serving members (patrols allowed for the most newly joined subalterns whose tailors had yet to finish the mess jacket);

o	White tie/tail coat for civilians and retired officers;

o	Sherry/whiskey before dinner;

o	Seven course dinner plus a sorbet between the fish and red meat courses and a savoury at the end;

o	Port and brandy for/after toasts and cigars â â€œ the subalterns did not leave the table until the port was all gone; and

o	Bandy in the ante room.

Dining-in Night:

o	Black tie (tuxedo) or patrol dress for officers whose tailor had not yet finished the black tie;

o	Black tie for civilian s and retired members, too;

o	Sherry/whiskey before dinner;

o	Five or six course dinner; and

o	Port and brandy â â€œ but maybe lesser quantities.

The distinctions were real â â€œ dining-in nights were _informal_ and relaxed.  Mess dinners were _events_ and they were parades, too.

An late Victorian/Edwardian gentlemen (circa 1900) would have known all the routines and rituals of an RCR Mess Dinner 65 years later; he would have known exactly what to do, etc and he would have felt very much at home â â€œ although he might have commented on the relative paucity of serving staff.

We change our customs with time â â€œ to make them work for us.  Some of our dining customs of 40 years ago are neither desirable nor affordable in 2005 so COs and RSMs change the rules as they see fit.  That is how it should be.

The purpose of any dinner night is to enjoy good fellowship with mess-mates; there may be additional 'aims' like entertaining guests.  No matter what the event we remain ladies and gentlemen, be we corporals or colonels.  We should, especially in our 'homes,' conduct ourselves accordingly.
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* They went by many names: mess dinner, guest night, dining-in, dinner night, etc.


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## geo (28 Sep 2005)

Well said Edward
you've hit the nail on the head.

Chimo!


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## rifleman (4 Oct 2005)

I liked no washroom breaks, it limited the speeches as the speech makers were usually older and their bladders filled first. Now they give the break and speeches go forever. Save the talks for the Bar area I say!!! The Engineers have it right no speeches at a mess dinner.


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## Danjanou (4 Oct 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> o	Bandy in the ante room.



"Bandy"  in the ante room?

 Is this a particular custom of the RCRs?

Exactly who or what is a "bandy" might one ask? 

Now this sounds like a mess dinner tale worth hearing, then again maybe not this is a family site ;D

Don't you just hate typos.


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## Sig_Des (4 Oct 2005)

Ah...and Danjanou has just demonstrated the proper application of sarcasm to cut a post to pieces using only the lack of one letter in a word.

Well done >


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## the 48th regulator (4 Oct 2005)

I too thought it odd that he would spell such a a sweet elixir incorrectly, until I realized this is what he truly meant...

_ban ·dy  
 tr.v. ban ·died, ban ·dy ·ing, ban ·dies 

To toss or throw back and forth. 
To hit (a ball, for example) back and forth. 

To give and receive (words, for example); exchange: The old friends bandied compliments when they met. 
To discuss in a casual or frivolous manner: bandy an idea about. _ 

dileas

tess


EDITED FOR TRULY ATROCIOUS SPELLING, DUE TO SKIVING OF TIME AT WORK


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## Sig_Des (4 Oct 2005)

wow....

I stand corrected, and will bow to Edwards higher locution, and am humbled by 48th Regulator's phraseology ;D


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## geo (4 Oct 2005)

careful.....
he won't be able to get his helmet on


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## Edward Campbell (4 Oct 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> "Bandy"   in the ante room?
> 
> Is this a particular custom of the RCRs?
> 
> ...



There is, thanks to all in the heavens, but one Royal Canadian Regiment, members of The RCR (everything about Canada's First and Finest, including the The, always being capitalized) do not make typos; they do, ocassionally, leave little tests to see who is paying attention to detail.

And thanks, Tess; I owe you one.


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## Sig_Des (4 Oct 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> ocassionally



"Ocassionally", eh?   ;D another test?


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## Danjanou (4 Oct 2005)

Touche Edward, touche. the bandy or Brandy, your preference, is on me at the next get together.


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## the 48th regulator (5 Oct 2005)

Edward My friend, it would be an honor to be able to bandy about with you one day!








  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




dileas

tess


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## DG-41 (5 Oct 2005)

> the subalterns did not leave the table until the port was all gone



As is right and proper. No sense letting all that good port go to waste!

Although Ye Gods, this was one thing where "lead by example" caused me way more pain than anticipated..... 

DG


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