# The current navy uniform



## Sailing Instructor

Hi, I'm new to these forums _and_ the Canadian Navy (just finished IAP @ St Jean) and I'm very interested in naval uniforms.  However, there does not seem to be a lot of info on Canadian uniforms--even the CF dress Instructions is confusing.  So I've got a few questions that I reckon some people here could answer:

Why must the Undress Tropical Whites (high-collar white tunic & trousers) contain some polyester (100% or 65/35% with cotton)?  Doesn't a fabric known for being hot defeat the purpose of a summer uniform?  Do the people writing the dress instructions think sailors cannot iron?

Why no more ceremonial navy blue tunic?  Admittedly the reefer jacket looks sharp, but the army gets ceremonial uniforms, why can't we?

And as for 'navy blue,' how did it get to be translated into black?  

Finally (until I think of some more questions!), why don't we get a distinct insignia colour for the CADPAT nametags & 'epaule'ttes?  Without the navy beret I don't know how to address people because that little fouled anchor on the nametape is very hard to see.  Perhaps the navy doesn't wear CADPAT enough to warrant distinction?  Then again, the airforce gets blue t-shirts and insignia even though between the army and airforce a Capt is a Capt and a MCpl is a MCpl, so the distinction is purely aesthetic.

Anyway, thanks if someone can satisfy my curiousity and I look forward to using these great forums!


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## NavyGrunt

I cant answer any of those!!


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## spenco

So then why did you answer this post?  ???


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## Ex-Dragoon

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Hi, I'm new to these forums _and_ the Canadian Navy (just finished IAP @ St Jean) and I'm very interested in naval uniforms.   However, there does not seem to be a lot of info on Canadian uniforms--even the CF dress Instructions is confusing.   So I've got a few questions that I reckon some people here could answer:
> 
> Why must the Undress Tropical Whites (high-collar white tunic & trousers) contain some polyester (100% or 65/35% with cotton)?   Doesn't a fabric known for being hot defeat the purpose of a summer uniform?   Do the people writing the dress instructions think sailors cannot iron?


Polyester is also durable and lasts a long time. As for ironing you will always have people that will iron incorrectly even with the directions there.



> Why no more ceremonial navy blue tunic?   Admittedly the reefer jacket looks sharp, but the army gets ceremonial uniforms, why can't we?


Space onboard a ship...hard enough finding space for all of our kit, will be even harder putting a ceremonial. Besides army ceremonial uniforms have always been part of an army units heritage. Navy and air force uniforms tend to me more functional. Not to mention the money required to design and buy these new uniforms. I am happy with what we have.



> And as for 'navy blue,' how did it get to be translated into black?


I have always called my CFs blacks never navy blue, not sure where you have got your info.   



> Finally (until I think of some more questions!), why don't we get a distinct insignia colour for the CADPAT nametags & 'epaule'ttes?   Without the navy beret I don't know how to address people because that little fouled anchor on the nametape is very hard to see.   Perhaps the navy doesn't wear CADPAT enough to warrant distinction?   Then again, the airforce gets blue t-shirts and insignia even though between the army and airforce a Capt is a Capt and a MCpl is a MCpl, so the distinction is purely aesthetic.


The few sailors in Halifax that wear CADPAT have the fouled anchor. We have not much need for CADPATS anyways. I prefer our NCDs.{naval combat dress}


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## NavyGrunt

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> The few sailors in Halifax that wear CADPAT have the fouled anchor. We have not much need for CADPATS anyways. I prefer our NCDs.{naval combat dress}



Man is that ever true. The uniform that feels like jeans and a T-shirt!


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## Sundborg

I like the NCD's, they are pretty comfy.


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## hiv

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Finally (until I think of some more questions!), why don't we get a distinct insignia colour for the CADPAT nametags & 'epaule'ttes?   Without the navy beret I don't know how to address people because that little fouled anchor on the nametape is very hard to see.   Perhaps the navy doesn't wear CADPAT enough to warrant distinction?   Then again, the airforce gets blue t-shirts and insignia even though between the army and airforce a Capt is a Capt and a MCpl is a MCpl, so the distinction is purely aesthetic.



The reason the Air Force gets blue stitching and t-shirts is because CADPAT is replacing the old 3-E work dress. They wanted to keep something distinctly Air Force on it. As far as i know the Navy is not having their salt & peppers replaced with CADPAT so there hasn't been a special issue of CADPAT accoutrements.


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## ModlrMike

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> And as for 'navy blue,' how did it get to be translated into black?


  

Navy blue was always very dark blue approaching black. It would seem to reason that black is the nearest modern equivalent.



			
				Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Finally (until I think of some more questions!), why don't we get a distinct insignia colour for the CADPAT nametags & 'epaule'ttes?   Without the navy beret I don't know how to address people because that little fouled anchor on the nametape is very hard to see.   Perhaps the navy doesn't wear CADPAT enough to warrant distinction?   Then again, the airforce gets blue t-shirts and insignia even though between the army and airforce a Capt is a Capt and a MCpl is a MCpl, so the distinction is purely aesthetic



I've just seen some of the blue ranks and name tapes... they're harder to read than the CADPAT ones. I would like to see us go with high vis (gold on black/blue/green etc) in garrison and CADPAT in the field.

BTW... I never mind if someone calls me WO when I'm wearing CADPAT, but watch out if you do it when I'm wearing my dress uniform!  ;D


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## axeman

my 2 cents on this is when i wore NCD's is that they are in no way as comfy as a set of real combats. there is a reason for the fabric they are made of   but the nomex's properties is downgraded when at / near the schools when some one is told to iron it . I just wished that some one could come out with a set of NCD's that are as comfortable as cbt's or even a set of the nomex coveralls the QL5 HT's / Firefighters get . 



 /  :fifty:


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## Pencil Tech

At the risk of enraging you salilors, I think you navy guts wear those ball caps too much  :. Especially when you see a ship leaving or coming into port and you're all lined up on the deck, it would look better if you wore your white tops or at least berets, IMHO!


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## Ex-Dragoon

Just a question Pencil Tech have you ever done any upper deck work on a ship at all? If you have then you would know why we wear ball caps.


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## Sailing Instructor

Thanks for the replies everyone.  Personally I like my cotton, so damn the polyester whites!  Do you think  anyone would notice if I had a cotton duck set tailored for myself? ;D

Are the Nomex coveralls those blue suits that submariners wear?  I think they could look better than the current NCD, but then I'll keep my judgements to myself until I have worn NCD for a while. (Does one iron them while aboard?)   

As for 'navy blue,' that is simply the name I've seen DND give to the black reefer jacket and trousers.  Obviously it is not blue at all, but I wish it were as I believe it was in RCN uniforms.

What's the deal with ball caps then, in terms of upper deck work?  I of course agree that the white-top looks better, so I'm biased against them aesthetically, but what is their advantage (besides not looking dirty)?


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## Cloud Cover

Ball caps were not always allowed in harbour, we used to wear green berets, which became a frequent hot item for the   USN types to trade for, I once got a brand new pea jacket for a used beret. [doesn't fit anymore,  but I see my son has taken to wearing it - it isn't from The Gap!!!]. I think Kootenay had the first [unofficial] policy of ball caps in harbour evolutions. Most ships always permitted ball caps at sea, I have a pic of my dad standing beside "his"   Banshee and wearing a ball cap, circa 1961. 

I am surprised and disheartened about the Navy Tunic. I was so excited to toss the CF green bag into the gash in exchange for the DEU's, I think it is a shame to get rid of that order of dress .. eye catching, professional, authoritative etc. Does anyone have a picture of the replacement that could be posted?   

And, I think ball caps don't look too bad, they are appropriate for the job being done on the deck.


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## Pencil Tech

I'm wasn't taliking about upper deck work, just in harbour when the TV cameras are there and the flags are waving.


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## Cloud Cover

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies everyone.   Personally I like my cotton, so damn the polyester whites!   Do you think   anyone would notice if I had a cotton duck set tailored for myself? ;D
> 
> What's the deal with ball caps then, in terms of upper deck work?   I of course agree that the white-top looks better, so I'm biased against them aesthetically, but what is their advantage (besides not looking dirty)?



I was answering this post ... the most likely advantage is cost. They do seem to contribute to ship morale [individually] by indentifying the ship with the sailor. In addition, they make a great memento for when you leave the job. I still have every one from ships I was on, including the red Kooteney cap and the green Gatineau cap. Now, they are all blue/black. [ I think]


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## greydak

I seen a Navy ship on TV and the crew was a cop, a biker, an Indian chief and a construction worker? Very odd!


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## Ex-Dragoon

You wear your forage cap or beret for ceremonial reasons because it costs far less to replace a ball cap then it does a beret and forage cap as well when you are humping lines forage caps have a habit of falling off. Sorry you might not think its practical but anyone that sails does.


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## Sundborg

greydak said:
			
		

> I seen a Navy ship on TV and the crew was a cop, a biker, an Indian chief and a construction worker? Very odd!



YMCA eh?


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## NavyGrunt

That and a black woolen beret and a hot sunny day is a horrible thing. I think you army guys should never wear bush caps. Berets only.


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## Ex-Dragoon

greydak said:
			
		

> I seen a Navy ship on TV and the crew was a cop, a biker, an Indian chief and a construction worker? Very odd!



 : Oh my like I have never heard that one before.


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## PTE Gruending

Does anyone know where to find pictures online of Navy combat/work dress and the like? I had just assumed that they wore combats like Army/Air Force counterparts.
thanks


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## Ex-Dragoon

If you cycle through the navy site you will find some pictures:

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_gallery/gallery_e.asp


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## Sailing Instructor

Are the submarine coveralls pretty much the same as the air force's jumpsuits?  I think jumpsuits would make a pretty cool looking NCD--add some colourful gloves and the helmet and the ship's company would look like the henchmen from a James Bond film!  ;D

But seriously, my question stands....


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## Inch

Jumpsuits? Flight suits my man, and no, they're not the same. They're fine for sitting down while flying and flipping switches, but god help you if you need to reach something on the top shelf and you want to keep your masculine voice. I prefer the 2 piece flight suits, no soprano singing whenever I put my hat on.  ;D

Cheers


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## condor888000

If you think reaching up to put on a hat is bad, try crewing gliders in the things!


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## Inch

Not to be a dink or anything, but I've only flown things with engines, and at that half my total time is turbine. 8) I imagine it's like climbing up on the helos the check out the rotorhead, reaching up, flight suit up your arse, hitting your head on the bloody rotor (my continued intelligence is thanks to the man that thought helmets were a cool idea), and then climbing back down, the whole time your buddies are yelling "Hey Inch, nice arse!" Bunch of jerks. I guess I shouldn't have made fun of them first.  :-[

Cheers

My apologies to the navy types for hijacking the thread. I'm done now.


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## condor888000

Well I've never flown anything with engines so we're even, that's for next summer!


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## Lance Wiebe

Hey Inch!

Pray you never do try and fly without engines!

It doesn't seem to me that it would be much fun! ;D


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## Inch

Oh we practice Lance, Autorotations are great fun, well, with a working engine in case you screw up.  Let's just say I know enough to not kill myself or my crew, I can't say the same for the chopper!  ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon

Which question SI myself and some others pretty much addressed all your points.


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## axeman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That and a black woolen beret and a hot sunny day is a horrible thing. I think you army guys should never wear bush caps. Berets only. 


HEY MR MP5 your Butt is showing . when you get a bit of real field time you will understand what a Field cap is for . its not only used to keep your head cooler then 60+ c  but also can be used to break up your outline .


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## Sailing Instructor

I've just heard that we can be issued with the tropical whites, rather than purchasing them for optional wear.  Is this true?


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## Ex-Dragoon

That is correct. The only part of the uniform you have to buy is the tunic.


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## chief_of_da_fence

Howdy

as far as I know the tunics are a dark navy blue

as fro high collar whites those are not issue you have to buy those your self most people buy them at the United States PX . if you wan you can get one done at a tailor made   of a more appropriate material. it's my understanding that to the Americans the high collar whites are a winter uniform called (winter whites). 
as for cad pat i have to be about a foot away just to see the the rank on the shoulder lol ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon

> Howdy


Howdy yourself. How about filling out your profile a bit more so we know who we are dealing with. 



> as far as I know the tunics are a dark navy blue


Sure look black to me.



> as fro high collar whites those are not issue you have to buy those your self most people buy them at the United States PX . if you wan you can get one done at a tailor made     of a more appropriate material. it's my understanding that to the Americans the high collar whites are a winter uniform called (winter whites).
> as for cad pat i have to be about a foot away just to see the the rank on the shoulder lol ;D


Most people who want them order them through Clothing Stores. The tunics are made here in Canada. The USn only wears their whites in the summer or in a tropical area, never in the winter. As for cadpat having rank of their shoulder I believe your are mistaken as any example I have seen always has it on the front.


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## NavyGrunt

axeman said:
			
		

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> That and a black woolen beret and a hot sunny day is a horrible thing. I think you army guys should never wear bush caps. Berets only.
> 
> 
> HEY MR MP5 your Butt is showing . when you get a bit of real field time you will understand what a Field cap is for . its not only used to keep your head cooler then 60+ c   but also can be used to break up your outline .



 We where a baseball hat for a reason. I was using sarcasm to show that us "wearing baseball hats" too much is a stupid statement. Like the "bush cap comment". Cheers "Axeman"


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## NavyGrunt

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> At the risk of enraging you salilors, I think you navy guts wear those ball caps too much   :. Especially when you see a ship leaving or coming into port and you're all lined up on the deck, it would look better if you wore your white tops or at least berets, IMHO!




^^^^^^^^^^^

Here Axeman- I'll show you what I was refering too. Now I believe both pencil tech and I were joking around.


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## axeman

OK i apologize for my comments then . i now understand where your coming from . its kinda hard to follow a conversation when its posted over a while .


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## Torlyn

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> If you cycle through the navy site you will find some pictures:
> 
> http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/mspa_gallery/gallery_e.asp



I noticed on one of the pictures that one of the members appears to be wearing a Tilley hat?  I gather headgear is rather informal at sea...  (Curious, as I'm applying for the Navy...)

T


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## Ex-Dragoon

Navy has issued Tilley hats since GW1...awesome piece of kit and more practical then a ball (black) cap or a beret.


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## Inch

pff. Helmets are way cooler.   
ExD, I noticed that the NBP had flight suits on, my question is how the hell they got the sleeves rolled up considering they're tapered and I can't get mine past mid forearm. I've heard some grumblings around the Air types about the fact that we had a hell of a time getting the green flight suits only to have the NBPs get them before us and then destroy them by cutting the sleeves.

Cheers


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## Ex-Dragoon

Hmmmm must be something new as we wore the old style OD combats in the Gulf and coveralls similiar to what the police tactical teams wear. Could be the differences in ships because some ships issued crewsuits to their NLBPs.


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## Inch

Gotcha, I've seen the navy blue coveralls, I seem to remember seeing Dolphins so it may have been one of those dirty submariners.   They definitely had a high LCF (look cool factor).  8)


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## chief_of_da_fence

[Howdy yourself. How about filling out your profile a bit more so we know who we are dealing with. ]
Howdy right back at ya sorry for upsetting you. filled out my profile as per your request

[Sure look black to me.]
I didn't name the colour (it looks black to me to)

[Most people who want them order them through Clothing Stores. The tunics are made here in Canada. The USn only wears their whites in the summer or in a tropical area, never in the winter.]
When you order them through stores you deal with the tailors not the storesie's.
People have found it a lot less expensive buying them at the US Naval Exchange mine cost me around 125 CDN as apposed to the 250 through the base   or other tailors. In regards to the US calling them winter whites , I am by no means a subject mater expert. I only know what I was told

[As for cadpat having rank of their shoulder I believe your are mistaken as any example I have seen always has it on the front.]
 Where ever the bloody rank is, the point was very simple and an attempt at humor. the point being i have to be very close to see what rank I am dealing with let alone close enough to see the environmental desig on the name tag. these old tired eyes ainain'tat they used to be. lol


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## Sailing Instructor

Ah, so only the white trousers are issued, to be worn as 3Bs.  That is to say: 3Bs in the summer, but when else would one be wearing shortsleeves anyway?

Just to clarify some terminology about the navy uniform: everyone seems to refer to the black (navy blue, whatever) double-breasted jacket as a tunic--comparable with the army and air force's tunics.  However, this is not correct because a tunic is actually closer to being a shirt rather than a jacket.  A tunic, as the army has worn it, is a piece of clothing worn over an undershirt and underneath armour or protective clothing (like a parka or coat).  

In our modern world we have two prime examples of tunics: (1) the CADPAT "Combat Shirt" is an example of a 'practical' tunic worn underneath webbing, combat parkas, etc.  (2) the scarlet tunic of the light infantry is an example of a 'dress' tunic worn for ceremonial occasions and by RMC students.  These are both worn over t-shirts and are not tucked in like other shirts--they somewhat resemble the modern suit jacket.

Since military service dress has modernised, the army's tunic has taken on the form of a suit jacket and has been worn over a collared shirt with tie.  However it is still called a tunic because we in the military have a little thing called tradition (and just flip the notched collar and lapels of a suit jacket up and see if it doesn't resemble the form of a a high-collared ceremonial tunic).

After the 3 services unified, they wore a green suit modeled after the army's service dress.  The jacket was, of course, called a tunic because of aforementioned tradition.  When the environments got DEUs in the '80s, the navy got back something like it's traditional jacket, but I think that the name tunic was pretty powerful because it is still refered to as a tunic.  

The real name for the navy's black jacket (besides COAT, BLACK A/W) is a 'reefer' jacket.  The name comes from sailing--sails are reefed in, lines are reefed upon, etc.  And its form comes not from a tunic, but from the frock coat and tailcoat of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.  These coats, unlike tunics, were worn over dress shirts.  Thus, the navy's service dress is the most like a modern suit and most definitely not a tunic.  

The navy's tunic is the white, high-collared contraption that I mentioned earlier as a summer service dress uniform.  This is worn over an undershirt and is meant as a cool alternative to the heavyweight black suit of the winter uniform.


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## Inch

3Bs aren't just worn in the summer, you're permitted to wear them year round now. There's also a term (correct me if I'm wrong) called walking out dress, and the long sleeve shirt and tie is not considered walking out dress, if you're wearing the longsleeve shirt and tie you have to wear either the tunic (reefer jacket, if you like) or a sweater. 3Bs can be worn with a sweater or nothing at all. With the new gortex jackets in the system, most people wear the gortex jacket with their 3Bs in the winter or they wear the tie/sweater/tunic combo. Clear as mud?

Cheers


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## Sailing Instructor

I see.  All I meant about 3Bs is that the 'option' of black trousers ought to be moot because if you're wearing short sleeves it's obviously too hot for the black heavyweight trousers.  Except that we wear 3Bs even when it's not hot.  Quite frankly, I'd rather wear the tropical white tunic & trousers (1Ds I think) over 3Bs and I plan to, if permitted by variable 'rig of the day' orders.  That's my rant and I'm sticking to it. ;D


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## chief_of_da_fence

I am still waiting for them to let me whre tropical gerer in Manitoba. shorts would be nice in the summer.


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## Sailing Instructor

Okay, so one more beef with the current uniform: what is the deal with not showing one's shirt cuffs?  I can understand it being a tradition with the army because they wear a tunic which was originally worn over underwear (i.e. a union suit, and, later, a t-shirt) and thus would show no cuff (re: my earlier post in this thread on what exactly a 'tunic' is).  As it is, I believe they are allowed to wear the short-sleeved shirt under their tunic so there is no issue with sleeves anyway.

However, the navy's reefer jacket was always worn with a button-up white shirt, and cuffs were sported from the sleeves of many an officer's jacket--sometimes with double-cuffs and cufflinks (not to mention the frills of the 1700s (and perhaps late 1960s!)).  So when the green uniform was repealed for the navy and airforce, why did the uniform regulations not allow for showing one's cuffs again?  I must say it's rather contradictory to show a collar and tie, yet not the cuffs--even in the army which I think should flip up their lapels, but that's another thread....  

And as for this whole issue being a problem, where exactly does it say I can't show cuffs?  I've had two base tailors correct me when I wanted the reefer jacket sleeves shortened, but I've scoured the CF Dress Instructions and found nothing.


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## Sailing Instructor

Another question, this time about naval combat rig: are we allowed to wear the field combat boots (Mark 3, I believe) with it anytime?  I've seen one LS wearing army combat boots but perhaps there was some fire-safety issue that prevented him from wearing the parade boots.

I know that sea boots are now allowed with all orders of naval combats, so I'm hoping that field boots are also allowed; I hate having to constantly spit shine my only pair of parade boots because I ruin them while instructing sea cadets.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Sea boots are available for issue as well.


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## NavyGrunt

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Sea boots are available for issue as well.



He's instructing Cadets Ex. In your unit (in mine at least) sea boots are not allowed, neither are Mark 3's. Parade boots with NCD's are dress of the day, as you are on parade. Uniformity.

Sailing instructor I would just advise you to contact your CO in this matter. You should.nt be wearing parade boots while sailing however.


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## Inch

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Another question, this time about naval combat rig: are we allowed to wear the field combat boots (Mark 3, I believe) with it anytime?   I've seen one LS wearing army combat boots but perhaps there was some fire-safety issue that prevented him from wearing the parade boots.
> 
> I know that sea boots are now allowed with all orders of naval combats, so I'm hoping that field boots are also allowed; I hate having to constantly spit shine my only pair of parade boots because I ruin them while instructing sea cadets.



This is my understanding of it, keep in mind that in the Air Force we tend to be a little more lenient. NCDs are an operational dress, if you were supposed to wear parade boots with it, you would have been issued 2 pairs. MH techs get issued NCDs for use on ship, they wear sea boots or some other type of safety boot, but not parade boots.  Even around the hangar in Shearwater, you'd be hard pressed to find a dozen guys wearing parade boots, the rules are pretty lax when it comes to foot wear, I wear Danner Acadias in the winter and MKIII aircrew boots the rest of the time.  Some guys wear HiTech Magnums, Matterhorns, the list goes on, as long as they're black.  Also, you're an officer, so why are you wearing parade boots with your DEUs? CF Oxfords are the footwear for officers, even on parade, the navy may have a different opinion on that. I haven't worn parade boots in over 4 years. 

So, my opinion is that if you're wearing an operational dress, you should be wearing the appropriate foot wear and parade boots aren't appropriate operational footwear.

Cheers


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## Sailing Instructor

Yeah, I was never sure about wearing parade boots in my service dress.  But I've never heard of a dress instruction against it (though I understand some of the most important rules are unwritten) and parade boots are more confortable for marching around.

If parade boots are not for officers (and they aren't from what I've been told) why do they issue them to us?  On IAP, I got 2 pr black oxfords (I think one was supposed to be white) & 1 pr parade boots.


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## Inch

I don't have an answer for that, I was issued a AF Blue forge cap that I have yet to wear, same as the AF workdress, I'm aircrew so I wear a flight suit 99% of the time but I was still issued work dress.

I'd look into sea boots, if you were issued NCDs, there's no reason you shouldn't have been issued the footwear for it.

I did wear parade boots on BOTC, but that was the last time I wore them. If you get the new oxfords, the ones with the Vibram soles, they're actually quite comfortable.

Cheers


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## NavyGrunt

As for being in the Reserves you are only issued sea boots if you go to the coast and go on ship. NO SHIP NO SEABOOTS. And sea boots are NOT acceptable for parades.

Why do I feel like shouting?


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## Inch

I never said sea boots on parade, you wear sea boots with NCDs, just like I wear aircrew boots with a flight suit, I don't change my footwear depending on whether or not I'm going flying. That's like saying you don't wear combat boots on parade even though you're wearing combats.


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## NavyGrunt

Right but generally on parade we wear NCD's and parade boots, even though its Naval combats you wear parade boots. Unless you're on a boot. I'm assuming as a CIC he doesnt spend much time on a ship so good luck gtting sea boots...


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## Inch

Fair enough, we don't parade that often in the Air Force and when we do it's Oxfords when we're in DEUs and whatever footwear you choose to wear when you're in work dress. 

SI, combat boots should be fine when you're out sailing, if you've only got the one pair of parade boots.


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## Ex-Dragoon

The best boots that the navy issues IMHO are the hull tech boots. I use a pair as a secondary pair for both NLBP and general ship use.


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## Sailing Instructor

Actually I'm ROTP filling my non-university time by volunteering with my old sea cadet corps, so I guess I could get sea boots.

As for the oxfords, has the navy come to the point where naval combat rig is so often worn that there is no reason for more than one pair of shoes fit for service/ceremonial rig?  I am assuming that one must rotate shoes as we are all taught to do with combat boots in basic, though.  Perhaps the powers-that-dress-us have decided that no one really works up a sweat at ceremonies or in the office so we don't need to rotate footwear--no matter how many times Esquire & GQ tell gentlemen to have at least 2 pairs of shoes custom-made for them.  

I, of course, agree with having at least 2 pairs of any footwear and having the right footwear for the occasion.  This prompts me to ask what happened to the 'licorice legs' leather gaiters that officers used to wear on parade.  Didn't these gaiters require boots rather than shoes (to not leave a gap at the ankle)?

If it clears anything up: my orginal intent was to wear Mk 3 combat boots with NC rig ('dress' just isn't nautical enough for me) while drilling cadets--my experience with colours & other 'ceremonial' parades has been ceremonial rig, so I've never thought of NC rig as something one can dress-up with parade boots & undress with sea boots.

When exactly did we get our current NC rig?  When did the reefer jacket (or the rifle green tunic) stop being worn aboard?  (Assuming it's no longer worn.)  To allude to another post I made on naval rig: why can't we just have fire-retardant frock coats and cocked hats?


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## navydrill

well here is my 2 cents.
the ball caps are the equivalent to your bush caps, so would you take them off and put your berets on just because there are cameras around i don't think so!
and sir if we were to bring back the old "BLUE" dress uniform your uniform wouldn't change anyway just MS and below wore those.
and ironing the navy combats it have been proved that after you wash them 2 times the fire resistance is gone.so just iron them and get over it.and yes they are a pain in the butt.


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## NavyGrunt

I dont see what is a "pain in the butt" about our current rig. When Im working on deck I wear a ball cap. When I step off the ship I put my beret on. Certain areas of the base I wear my hat. Step foot off the base and I put my beret on......


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## navydrill

the ironing part is the pain in the butt!!lol


----------



## NavyGrunt

navydrill said:
			
		

> the ironing part is the pain in the butt!!lol



AH. Yeah thats more of a pain in the ass on the boats instead of on shore. I takes 2 minutes in the morning while your in barracks....at least of me. Hang it up as soon as it comes off and iron in the morning. Of course Im sure you already know this already lol.


----------



## axeman

listen to you like its so hard to do such  , and youve such time in trade too wait till you have to maintain a buskin or a kilt and sporran


----------



## NavyGrunt

axeman said:
			
		

> listen to you like its so hard to do such   , and youve such time in trade too wait till you have to maintain a buskin or a kilt and sporran



Are you talking to me Axeman? Im saying that its not that big a deal.....


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Actually the old blue uniform would change my uniform...to blue!  ;D Instead of that awful dull, dull black.  The aesthetic advantage of 'navy blue' (or 'midnight blue' as civilians now call it) is that it appears 'blacker than black' in artificial light and gives a lusterous blue tinge in sunlight--black, on the other hand, appears greyish-green in artificial light and God knows the navy has had enough with a green uniform.  Every other navy seems to have 'blues' to refer to the almost-black uniform except the CF.

Another change to our uniform: 8 buttons instead of 6.  Not a big deal but I rather like it.

And as for the junior rating's square rig, are there any MS & below who wish for its return?  I thought that they liked having a jacket & tie, back in the 70s at least, because bar owners couldn't discriminate against sailors by requiring shirt & tie and not counting the gunshirt & silk.  Now I suppose it is a moot point because people seem to rarely walk out in uniform.

I guess I'll have a more informed opinion on the orders of rig when I actually sail.  But I am absolutely informed that those service dress trousers are cut too tightly!


----------



## NavyGrunt

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Actually the old blue uniform would change my uniform...to blue!   ;D Instead of that awful dull, dull black.   The aesthetic advantage of 'navy blue' (or 'midnight blue' as civilians now call it) is that it appears 'blacker than black' in artificial light and gives a lusterous blue tinge in sunlight--black, on the other hand, appears greyish-green in artificial light and God knows the navy has had enough with a green uniform.   Every other navy seems to have 'blues' to refer to the almost-black uniform except the CF.
> 
> Another change to our uniform: 8 buttons instead of 6.   Not a big deal but I rather like it.
> 
> And as for the junior rating's square rig, are there any MS & below who wish for its return?   I thought that they liked having a jacket & tie, back in the 70s at least, because bar owners couldn't discriminate against sailors by requiring shirt & tie and not counting the gunshirt & silk.   Now I suppose it is a moot point because people seem to rarely walk out in uniform.
> 
> I guess I'll have a more informed opinion on the orders of rig when I actually sail.   But I am absolutely informed that those service dress trousers are cut too tightly!




Arrrrgghh I d love the return to the square rig there sailing instructor....but yes our current pants are too tight,


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I for one is glad the old square rig is gone.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Does the gun run team still get issued the square rig?


----------



## Sailing Instructor

I believe I saw the guncrews wearing only the gunshirts & trousers (not sure if they were bell-bottomed, but I assume so).  They also have their ships badges (or coast badges, I think each coast has a team?) sewn on the gunshirts.

I liked wearing my square rig when I was a cadet...damn it was sexy.  Or at least far sexier than that awful uniform cadets wear now.


----------



## brin11

Okay, what the h*ll is a squarerig?  I'm dying to know.


----------



## Inch

I think it's those blue bell bottom pants and shirt with the backwards bib


----------



## Staud

Hey Sailing Instructor, 

Navy blue is a form of black, all blacks have a base colour..however you're correct, the RCN No. 1's equivalent to our DEUs were a dark shade of blue. Funny enough when the most recent NCDs first came out, replacing the old naval combat dress from the 70s most of them had a base colour of purple and green and after a couple months they faded something fierce, kinda liek the CADPAT. Good thing the CF only buys quality material that doesn't wear down fast, eh? LOL 
If you are looking at buying whites, may a suggest you get a set of USN high collar whites, much better quality, they don't get dirty as fast, look better and scuttel butt is they don't chaff you nipples.
If you want a really good link for Naval traditions and reasons behind the cultrure go to www.readyayeready.com and check out the traditions section...it helped me a lot when I first joined before the powes that be decided to put me in a green uniform when I went RegF... never say never...like I am never going back to St-Jean LOL 

Fair sailing and following seas..


----------



## greener

Where does the trade badge fit in on the Navy uniform? Do all types of uniforms have a trade badge? I've seen alot pics with blue shirts, no one seems to have a trade badge.


----------



## axeman

dependson a combat shirt no badges . whites is on the arm


----------



## greener

I did more digging and found that the jacket that goes with the combats (which I think are called NCDs?) have the black trade badges.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Despite the fact that trade badges are important during evolutions aboard ship (so that everyone knows what others' jobs are) they are not seen on Naval Combat Rig (or 'Dress' as the powers-that-be would have us say it even though it is not a 'dress' uniform, in the proper sense of the word--meaning a uniform with dressings such as epaulettes, medals, etc.).  (Save the red/maroon stripes between medical branch officers' gold rank stripes.)

Trade badges (which are soley worn by ratings) are worn on the collar of the reefer jacket (double-breasted, gilt-buttoned thing) or on the arm of the white short sleeved shirt.  They are much the same as old RCN trade badges, unlike the RN's current trade badges which I find to be ugly (a star for a cook? where the hell did that come from?).  Mind you, the RN puts trade badges on the right arm of their Improved Action Working Rig ('Dress' technically, again....)


----------



## Staud

Funny thing... not sure if it is still in the dress regs but, when I was an Ode I noticed for Salt & Peppers the rank was sewn on the right arm and the trade badge was on the left while wearing Ode slip-ons....Ha Ha I never saw that, just on the dress regs pics in Nelles Block, gotta love when the pic that tells you how to dress is wrong

Cheers


----------



## buckahed

I never got to wear the blues. I had my release papers in my hand when they sent me up to get issued. My name was on the list, I was going to get the issue, release or not. I was one of the first in Halifax so they didn't have much to issue and weren't exactly sure who got what. Normal procedure. One thing I wondered about was the high necked white tunic. One got tossed on my pile despite an argument on whether senior NCO's would be issued or private purchase or whether the tunics were officer only. I have never seen pictures of NCO's in the tunics, did I get it by mistake?


----------



## Sailing Instructor

You were issued the white tunic?  I should be so lucky!  They told me that it's a private purchase--you've got to have some money so as not to sweat to death in a black reefer jacket in a summer parade.

And, yes, NCMs do wear the white tunic, with unadorned shoulder straps instead of the two loops that receive the shoulder boards.  No trade badges are worn, however.  

When were you issued this tunic?  Perhaps it was something they used to do, but don't anymore.


----------



## buckahed

Back in '87. I was one of the very first in Halifax to go for the issue of the blues. No one had a clue about what was supposed to be issued or dress regs for the new uniform. Stores only had bits and pieces of kit. They didn't know where to put the dolphins so the seamstress decided to put it on the sleeve cause that was easier. I think I got a white tunic because there was only a half dozen (I think they were samples) and the stores types wanted to get rid of them. One less thing to worry about.

I never got to wear the blues. When I got back to the boat with my little pile, every gannet in the Chuffs and Puffs mess mobbed me grabbing pieces. They all knew I was on the way to the release center and decided I didn't need any of it.


----------



## Grimey

Trade badges where reintroduced during the late 80's when the new blue workdress was issued.  This replaced the gumby green crap we used to wear.  For some reason, trade badges on the working rig was dropped in the early 90's, undoubtedly after untold millions where spent.  Badges are now worn on DEU collar tags only or on the sleeve of the SS white shirt if your an MS or below.  Could never figure that bit out.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Am I correct (when I mentioned in my last post) that it is important to know seamen's trades quickly by seeing a badge?  Or is this reason not valid nowadays? (I know it _was_ a reason, at one time anyway.)


----------



## FSTO

buckahed said:
			
		

> Back in '87. I was one of the very first in Halifax to go for the issue of the blues. No one had a clue about what was supposed to be issued or dress regs for the new uniform. Stores only had bits and pieces of kit. They didn't know where to put the dolphins so the seamstress decided to put it on the sleeve cause that was easier. I think I got a white tunic because there was only a half dozen (I think they were samples) and the stores types wanted to get rid of them. One less thing to worry about.
> 
> I never got to wear the blues. When I got back to the boat with my little pile, every gannet in the Chuffs and Puffs mess mobbed me grabbing pieces. They all knew I was on the way to the release center and decided I didn't need any of it.



In the RCN (and RN of course) the trade badges (submariner, aircrew, diver) were placed on the sleeve just above the rank. Also medals and ribbons were placed high on the shoulder rather than right above the pocket. After we got back our rightful colour they went back to place acoutramits (sp) were they were before. Then some tall forehead at NDHQ decided we should all look somewhat similar and we placed badges and medals at the same place as the Army and Air Force.

Few things I would like to see:

In the Navy your a sailor first and a MOC second. Everybody should wear the Naval Operations badge, (yes bin rats included)
I just hate that paperclip badge.

For officers, be like the medical pers (red stripes, white for Logistics)

The NCMs already have trade badges on their collars.

Executive curl for MARS and MARE officers.


----------



## Grimey

Trade badges should be reintroduced on workdress.  Say your closed up at action stations with your flash hood on.  Hard to tell whos who in all the fun.  Badges would definitely help.


----------



## greener

Are the whites considered work dress? When do you wear them? Say someone gets recruited into the COMM RSCH trade and gets put in the sea element, what would he wear on a day to day basis if he's posted somewhere in Ottawa nowhere near a boat.. hypothetically speaking of course


----------



## Steel Badger

As for recognizing rank badges the answer is simple......

Just go back to proper navy (and Army for that matter)


anyhow, I thought the eyepatch and the parraot were dead giveaways.... ;D

Yaaarrrrgh


----------



## Sailing Instructor

greener said:
			
		

> Are the whites considered work dress? When do you wear them? Say someone gets recruited into the COMM RSCH trade and gets put in the sea element, what would he wear on a day to day basis if he's posted somewhere in Ottawa nowhere near a boat.. hypothetically speaking of course



Our workdress is called 'Naval Combat Dress' as I wrote above, the 'dress' part is unnautical & incorrect use of dress, but never mind.  

There are 2 uniforms that are referred to as 'whites:' No 1C/D & No 3B.  Number 1 is the ceremonial dress (1C) or undress (1B) (here 'dress' is used more or less correctly; it refers to the types of medals worn).  This uniform consists of white shoes, white trousers, a _privately tailored_ white tunic (the only real tunic the navy wears), & the undress cap (which is really the dress cap since they took away cocked hats in 1939).

Number 3B is the same bottom half, but with a white, short-sleeved shirt.  The shirt is issued, so more likely if you're told to wear whites it'll be 3B. 

But once white _was_ workdress.  Jr ratings (what is now MS & below) wore their white duck jumpers for evolutions such as coaling a ship!  I think this is due to the fact that duck is more durable than serge when being washed all the time & perhaps it was a bit of tongue-in-cheek dress instructions from the Admiralty.  The officer's undress white tunic gave way to an undress khaki tunic as the British army had found the colour to look smarter than dirty white.

Personally, while I enjoy the confort of naval combat _rig_, I can't wait to wear my whites (either rig: 1 or 3) on NETPO this summer (I am a proud owner of the non-baggy polyester gabardine shirts).  Though I would like the option to wear black shoes/boots with them since wearing 1 pr of shoes in the hot summer can't be olifactorially-sound.


----------



## Infanteer

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> (I am a proud owner of the non-baggy polyester gabardine shirts)



You have odd hobbies....


----------



## greener

> Say someone gets recruited into the COMM RSCH trade and gets put in the sea element, what would he wear on a day to day basis if he's posted somewhere in Ottawa nowhere near a boat



Does anyone have insight on this part?


----------



## Slim

Well

As far as I know everyone who works in the Puzzle Palace wears the CF Dress uniform to work.

Slim


----------



## YukonJack

NDHQ Navy guys wear a mariad of unifirms to work. Never NCD's though. Most days, it'll be Dress Trousers (Blue or Black as most call call them) with the Short Sleeve White shirt and Beret. Sweater over that, if needed. Or, they might wear the same, only with a Long Sleeve White Shirt with tie, and the Peak Cap.
Summer months will see the above rigs, or the 3B's (White Trousers,White Belt, White Shoes if they got 'em, Short Sleeve Shirt and Peak Cap) dependant on the weather. If it's summer dress, feel free to wear the 3B's if you want. 
Of course, I'm a Hull Tech and can't stand wearing those things. The more slag burns on my NCD's the better.....


----------



## axeman

greener said:
			
		

> Say someone gets recruited into the COMM RSCH trade and gets put in the sea element, what would he wear on a day to day basis if he's posted somewhere in Ottawa nowhere near a boat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have insight on this part?
Click to expand...


doesnt matter  what arm you belong to you wear that uniform there . comms research is a multi arm trade like sigs and rms clerk so you wear what you were issued  {no combats} when do they do hand to hand?


----------



## NavyGunner

YukonJack said:
			
		

> NDHQ Navy guys wear a mariad of unifirms to work. Never NCD's though.



Not true my little shipwright friend. I have been to NDHQ and have seen many sailors wearing their NCD's.


----------



## Navalsnpr

I travel to Ottawa yearly for the National Shooting Competitions and during our time there we get chances to head down town. I've seen a number of personnel wearing NCD's out and about. Depending on what their job is normally dictates their "dress of the day". You wouldn't want a Navy technician working in a communications closet wearing his salt and peppers, it just isn't practical.

When Naval Personnel are posted to a LFA, they are required to wear Combats (Land Environment) to work.

The CF is one big happy family.


----------



## FSTO

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> I travel to Ottawa yearly for the National Shooting Competitions and during our time there we get chances to head down town. I've seen a number of personnel wearing NCD's out and about. Depending on what their job is normally dictates their "dress of the day". You wouldn't want a Navy technician working in a communications closet wearing his salt and peppers, it just isn't practical.
> 
> When Naval Personnel are posted to a LFA, they are required to wear Combats (Land Environment) to work.
> 
> The CF is one big happy family.



Hope to hell they were the relish slip ons when they are wearing the new combats. Nothing looks more idiotic than the relish slip ons on NCDs


----------



## Navalsnpr

Army and Air Force members serving onboard HMC Ships must wear NCD's. For as long as I remember, they are able to wear their distinct slip-ons so that personnel can determine their element. Since the introduction of CADPAT, Army personnel are now wearing the CADPAT slip-ons vice the older Olive Drab ones.

Personally, I think that you should be wearing the standard slip-ons (Black backing with gold embroidery) if you are wearing your distinctive beret/wedge. At sea, we all wear our ball caps and that should be the only time they should be allowed to wear their distinctive slip-ons.

I wear CADPAT on a regular occurrence. I normally wear my beret and everyone knows I'm Navy, except for the odd person who is new in the Army and think I'm Armoured!! If I have to wear my field cap, then the only means of determining my element is by seeing the anchor on my CADPAT nametape.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

> Army and Air Force members serving onboard HMC Ships must wear NCD's



I have yet to see an Air Det wear NCDs.


----------



## Inch

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Army and Air Force members serving onboard HMC Ships must wear NCD's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to see an Air Det wear NCDs.
Click to expand...


Aircrew wear flight suits, the techs wear NCDs with Air Force slip ons. 

There's no point issuing NCDs to aircrew since our flight suits satisfy all the flame retardant requirements already, the Air Force workdress unfortunately does not.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

> Aircrew wear flight suits, the techs wear NCDs with Air Force slip ons.



LOL not our techs only ever seen these guys wear coveralls, not saying it does not happen but my last 3 CPF postings our air types were never in NCDs.


----------



## Inch

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Aircrew wear flight suits, the techs wear NCDs with Air Force slip ons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL not our techs only ever seen these guys wear coveralls, not saying it does not happen but my last 3 CPF postings our air types were never in NCDs.
Click to expand...


Right you are, allow me to clarify. The techs are _issued_ NCDs, whether or not they wear them is another discussion. I've seen them getting off the bus in Shearwater after disembarking and they all had NCDs on.


----------



## FSTO

Inch said:
			
		

> LOL not our techs only ever seen these guys wear coveralls, not saying it does not happen but my last 3 CPF postings our air types were never in NCDs.



Right you are, allow me to clarify. The techs are _issued_ NCDs, whether or not they wear them is another discussion. I've seen them getting off the bus in Shearwater after disembarking and they all had NCDs on.

Were they just coming from a ship conducting WUPS and Sea Training made them wear NCD's?


----------



## Navalsnpr

Ok, Ok.

Firefighters wear their Firefighting Coveralls always as they are ready to pounce on a fire 24/7.
The Aircrew (Pilots, AirNAV, AESOP) always wear their flightsuits.
The Ground Crew wear their flightsuits during AirOps, but some of the ground crew will, from time to time, wear their NCD's. At least that is my experience on the ship's that I've been on.

At the end of the day, if the laundry is backed up, they have their NCD's and are able to change into a clean uniform if they want to.


----------



## Inch

FSTO said:
			
		

> Right you are, allow me to clarify. The techs are _issued_ NCDs, whether or not they wear them is another discussion. I've seen them getting off the bus in Shearwater after disembarking and they all had NCDs on.
> 
> 
> 
> Were they just coming from a ship conducting WUPS and Sea Training made them wear NCD's?
Click to expand...


No, it was the guys getting back from the Toronto this summer. Plus I've also seen the techs from the Montreal and VDQ Dets with them on prior to deploying for SNFL.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Originally I had intended to wait until I had worked in naval combats aboard ship before actually making public my thoughts on the naval uniform.  However, since I posted quite a lot on the army's uniform, it's irrational to keep biting my tongue about the navy uniform.  So I'm going to put my ideas out there & see what others think.  (Hell, it's better to be shut down here for a stupid idea than to have my staff roll their eyes at my crazy uniform ideas when I'm an admiral!)

My concept of the navy uniform is one which might be called a 'service uniform:' a single uniform which is suitable for both the field & the parade square (& walking out).  (Please correct me if this is the wrong definition of 'service dress.')  

My rationale for a single uniform rests on my limited personal experience of wearing the various uniforms, the usual environment in which they are worn, &--here it goes!--aesthetics.  I shall address the 'where they are worn' aspect first.  

As the shipboard environment is definitely not like the field of the army, the uniform designed to be worn there will be significantly different: as many generations of naval uniform have shown.  Evidence shows that, more or less, the naval working uniform (heretoforth referred to as 'undress' uniform) is extremely close in cut etc. to the naval dress uniform.  Contemporarily, we can see that the NCDs are, with the exception of the jacket, the same in cut as the dress uniform.  And I also cite that almost each undress uniform of the navy has become the dress uniform of the next generation of sailors.

I would posit that the various corps of the army followed this sort of succession until the 20th century when camouflage split, for the most part, the garrison uniform from the field uniform.  Unlike the army, however, the navy has never required camouflage (other than some stripes on ships) thus the uniform has not drastically changed since the ~1700s.  

In regards to my personal experience with the various current uniforms, I have mentioned much in previous posts.  In general I have found the NCDs to be more confortable than the dress uniforms (either no1s or no3s since they're made of similar componenents), and I've found the dress uniform (no1 or no 1c) to be more aesthetically pleasing than the NCDs.  

So that brings me to propose a single uniform for the navy, one which may be worn various ways in order to suit the conditions but which fills the 'requirements' for a dress (ceremonial) & undress (working) uniform.  (Mess dress is still separate, however.)  The changes may be explained in several steps so as to let it be understood better:

First, get rid of the no 3s order of uniform.  This not only takes away 4 orders of rig & therefore simplifies what we may wear (I honestly think we don't need a number to tell us what taking off our jacket is) but it also makes the sweater & short-sleeved shirt oboslete, thus reducing the amount of kit we need.  I find that the naval combats look just as 'professional' as any no3 order, and certainly more so than the sweater 'n' tie combo (in my opinion, though this certainly doesn't prove anything).  

Second, replace the NCD jacket with one styled as is the current reefer jacket.  Same fire-retardant material, etc, but cut like the reefer.  I can conceieve that the six buttons may be a problem, but I have no experience with this so perhaps someone can fill me in on the hazards of catching things aboard ship.  When rigged in antiflash gear, the collar & lapels could be flipped up, so this will present no problem.

Thirdly, replace the NCD shirt with a white tunic which could be worn like the current high-collared tunic but also like a regular shirt.  I think a good illustration of what I am proposing is the RN officers' summer white uniform.  Or perhaps picture the 3b shirt with long sleeves & optional hooks on the collar.  In the same vein, the NCD trousers would also be white & lighter weight.

Fourth, the sea boots would either remain as they are or be changed into a Wellington-type boot reaching just above the calf.  I believe there are some issues with dunking one's trouser cuffs in water all the time whereas the army gets to blouse their combats.  These were also worn by gunnery officers (& perhaps others) in days of yore.  The boot is reminiscent of the 'licorice legs' (black leather gaiters) worn by guard officers.  Yes, this would even be worn in summer, no more white shoes.  

Now, you see I've changed the NCDs completely in colour (& the boots & jacket in cut as well.)  I think that my suggested NCDs are, more than the current ones, fit for parade.  They look like the 'half-whites' or 'Yankee service dress' of the RN & USN, respectively (with wellingtons).  During hot weather or indoors, the reefer jacket would be removed & the white tunic untucked.  

I think the first issue that comes to mind is: wouldn't white become horribly soiled from working & then be unsuitable for parade.  Yes, but this is easily solved by ensuring sailors are issued enough sets so that one may have a clean uniform for parade/walking out.  Also, the issue of coveralls for those with particularly dirty jobs & choosing an easily-washed white cloth should solve most problems.  Perhaps a very light khaki might be used in place of white.  Admittedly, I wait to be corrected by someone who knows more about the chances of getting dirty aboard ship & the ease of washing the NCDs. 

This combat uniform, unlike the CADPATS, could be easily 'dressed up' with medals & accoutrements (& a tie) for parades & undressed for work.  With a simple pinning of medals or buckling of a sword belt, this uniform transcends what was previously a larger boundary between working & ceremonial uniforms.  It also permits adaptations to the season by simply removing the reefer jacket.  In short it simplifies the kit which must be carried by sailors & I think is as well suited to the shipboard environment as the current NCD uniform.  

For clarity, the rig can be divided into 4 orders: 
1. blue dress, with tie, medals, weapons, accoutrements;
2. blue undress, without tie, medals, weapons, accoutrements;
3. white dress, without reefer jacket, tunic untucked, with medals, weapons, accoutrements;
4. white undress,  without reefer jacket, tunic untucked, without medals, weapons, accoutrements.
5. also blue & white mess dress, as they are now.

Finally, I think this rig does fufill the criteria which were laid out in the 'redcoat dress uniforms' thread:  

1. I think this unform not only identifies people as sailors, as good military sense and the laws and usages of war require;

2. Since only the colour & some cut has been altered, I would logically assume that it still protects sailors soldiers, in so far as can be done, from the elements and, as for bio-chemical agents, I think the NBCD suit could fit over this very nicely;

3. This uniform is very much based on the traditional navy uniform (which is quite similar between all nations & is therefore more of a 'navy uniform' than a 'Canadian navy uniform' or a 'Japanese navy uniform,' etc.) and therefore displays military values of tradition & practicality (as it is based on a workdress).  (Perhaps I have mistaken the appropriate values.)


----------



## hugh19

Well I don't have time to write much right now but I can definitely tell that you have never been on a ship. Dress uniforms are dressy for obvious reasons and work uniforms are used for work. Would love to see someone show up for divies in paint covered uniform with medals.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> My concept of the navy uniform is one which might be called a 'service uniform:' a single uniform which is suitable for both the field & the parade square (& walking out).  (Please correct me if this is the wrong definition of 'service dress.')



Not even close.  The DEU is referred to as "service dress" in the regs; it is for parades and walking out only.  Even in WW II, Service Dress was not for the field, beginning in 1939.


----------



## FSTO

sledge said:
			
		

> Well I don't have time to write much right now but I can definitely tell that you have never been on a ship. Dress uniforms are dressy for obvious reasons and work uniforms are used for work. Would love to see someone show up for divies in paint covered uniform with medals.



What he said.


----------



## Navalsnpr

The past decade has seen quite a change regarding the number of issues of dress.

Regarding the Navy, we are now permitted to wear NCD's to and from work. When I first joined, you had to travel to/from work in your 3's (Salt n Peppers) and change into your NCD's.

The Army got rid of the Garrison Dress and now utilize Combats/CADPAT for work and walking out dress.

At the end of the day, less orders of dress means savings of funds that can be re-allocated elsewhere. Definitely a bonus these days.


----------



## PViddy

> *The reason the Air Force gets blue stitching and t-shirts is because CADPAT is replacing the old 3-E work dress.* They wanted to keep something distinctly Air Force on it. As far as i know the Navy is not having their salt & peppers replaced with CADPAT so there hasn't been a special issue of CADPAT accoutrements



Can anybody confirm or deny this ? sure would be nice.

regards

PV


----------



## Navalsnpr

> As far as i know the Navy is not having their salt & peppers replaced with CADPAT so there hasn't been a special issue of CADPAT accoutrement's.



I've yet to hear anything and do not anticipate that the Navy will ever choose to replace the salt & peppers order of dress with CADPAT or anything else. When it comes to Naval Dress, the Navy appears to continue to stay on the side of tradition. They may modernize their uniforms, but they do so in a fashion that reflects older Navy styles.

As for CADPAT, personnel in the Navy who work in Army units or by nature of their job (Base Defence Forces, Range Staff, deployed OPS,  etc) are the only personnel permitted to draw CADPAT.


----------



## aesop081

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> I've yet to hear anything and do not anticipate that the Navy will ever choose to replace the salt & peppers order of dress with CADPAT or anything else. When it comes to Naval Dress, the Navy appears to continue to stay on the side of tradition. They may modernize their uniforms, but they do so in a fashion that reflects older Navy styles.
> 
> As for CADPAT, personnel in the Navy who work in Army units or by nature of their job (Base Defence Forces, Range Staff, deployed OPS,   etc) are the only personnel permitted to draw CADPAT.



What about NBP personel that are wearing the old OD combats ? Will the change over to CADPAT ?


----------



## Navalsnpr

Currently NLBP personnel wear Black Tactical Coveralls for employment. During their time in the gulf, these coveralls were just to warm to wear, therefore they opted for a quick fix and chose primarily the green overalls that are thiner and when they ran out of those or couldn't get the sizes they required, they went with OD Combats.

I'm sure that during operations in normal climates, they will remain with the Black Tactical Coveralls.


----------



## aesop081

Cool, thanks


----------



## PViddy

Well, my inquiry was more so directed towards the Airforce end of things but...

PV


----------



## FSTO

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> Currently NLBP personnel wear Black Tactical Coveralls for employment. During their time in the gulf, these coveralls were just to warm to wear, therefore they opted for a quick fix and chose primarily the green overalls that are thiner and when they ran out of those or couldn't get the sizes they required, they went with OD Combats.
> 
> I'm sure that during operations in normal climates, they will remain with the Black Tactical Coveralls.


Since I am in charge of NBP training on the West Coast, here is the skinny:

We will continue to wear the dark blue coveralls in temperate waters, when we go to tropical climes we will wear a tan L/W coveralls. I wore them while we were in Singapore at the start of Dec. They are still warm but a little more comfortable than the dark blues.
For info we are getting a tactical vest, new radios, boonie hats, new boots and a new holster for the sig sauer.

Also do not be surprised if we go back to Salt and Peppers for coming to a from work as we get closer to 2010 which is the 100 anniversary of the RCN.


----------



## Navalsnpr

Good to hear that the west coast is procurring additional equipment for the NLBP teams. Definitely something that is required. Hopfully this is something that is occurring on both coasts.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Agreed I hope the teams get the new equipment of this coast as well.

and....
Sledge said:
Well I don't have time to write much right now but I can definitely tell that you have never been on a ship. Dress uniforms are dressy for obvious reasons and work uniforms are used for work. Would love to see someone show up for divies in paint covered uniform with medals.

FTSO said:
What he said.

Agreed guys.


----------



## Navalsnpr

Hmmm....

Dress of the day today will be CADPAT with medals!!

Don't think I'll see it in my lifetime!!


----------



## FSTO

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> Good to hear that the west coast is procurring additional equipment for the NLBP teams. Definitely something that is required. Hopfully this is something that is occurring on both coasts.



this is a national procurement, sometime during the next fiscal year will you start seeing these things.

Despite the two coasts we do have 1 Navy.


----------



## Inch

PViddy said:
			
		

> Can anybody confirm or deny this ? sure would be nice.
> 
> regards
> 
> PV



Yes it's true.  Most bases have been fitted already and I believe we're one of the last in Shearwater to receive the CADPATs which will be next month. Once you get to a unit following trades training, you should be issued it. I imagine that eventually it'll be issued to Air Force MOCs during BMQ/BOTC just like the postman uniforms are now.


----------



## Garbageman

Inch said:
			
		

> Yes it's true.   Most bases have been fitted already and I believe we're one of the last in Shearwater to receive the CADPATs which will be next month. Once you get to a unit following trades training, you should be issued it. I imagine that eventually it'll be issued to Air Force MOCs during BMQ/BOTC just like the postman uniforms are now.



Rumour has it the expected timeframe for Air Force CADPAT issue out of Borden is June-ish.  Personally I think this is somewhat optimistic though, as I know army-types kitted out of Borden that are still in olive drab.


----------



## Inch

Garbageman said:
			
		

> Rumour has it the expected timeframe for Air Force CADPAT issue out of Borden is June-ish.   Personally I think this is somewhat optimistic though, as I know army-types kitted out of Borden that are still in olive drab.



It should go off without a hitch, the Air Force tendered it's own contracts and has it's own procurement schedule. That's why we're getting CADPAT combat coats and rain gear long before the majority of the army will have it.


----------



## PViddy

Interesting news.  Now one can only wonder if it will eventually trickle down to the Airforce CIC, i am not asking for any priority over Regs and PRes of course but an eventual yes would be nice!

cheers

PV


----------



## Navalsnpr

CIC Officers are wearing CADPAT as I saw them at Bisley Camp and Connaught wearing them. 

I do find it suprising that prior to going to the UK, I went to Supply to top up on my CADPAT issue as I only had 2 sets and laundry at the Military Base in Pirbright, UK costs 5 £ a bag. I had a hard time to get issued a 3rd set and I'm RegF!!


----------



## PViddy

As i understand it.  Army CIC are currently issued it, as their work dress is combat fatigues.  Us air types get the "posties" so if "posties" are being replaced then one must wonder...and hope! hah.

cheers

PV


----------



## Navalsnpr

When I worked in Shearwater a couple of years ago, one of my Staff was a RegF MCpl LCIS Tech. At the time he still was wearing the OD combats. We were working in a Communications tunnel  beneath the road and his 4 seasons jacket got riped.

He went to supply and they told him that if they took the jacket, they had no 4 seasons jackets to replace it and he was not entitled to be issued with the Gortex jacket.

Meanwhile, the Primary Reservists and some of the CIC Officers who worked on the same base had received their issue of CADPAT.

There really wasn't any logic behind the way they issued the clothing. The first guy in my shop to be issued CADPAT was an Air Force guy as he was being deployed to Yugo, I was the second as I was being deployed to the UK and it took a year and a half for my MCpl to get issued it.

Who knows!!!


----------



## PViddy

yep...well put.

cheers

PV


----------



## Inch

Well, let me put it this way, after Feb, there isn't going to be an Air Force member in the Halifax area without CADPAT everything. From what I've heard from buddies on other bases, it's gone quite smoothly with everyone getting the CADPAT kit whether or not they need it (ie. Aircrew).

Navalsnpr, all that nonsense happened prior to the Air Force jumping into the CADPAT uniform game. It will be the working dress for non aircrew Air Force types. The Air Force's Clothing and Equipment Millennium Standard (CEMS) program seems to be going a little smoother than the Army's Clothe the Soldier program.


----------



## Navalsnpr

Inch said:
			
		

> Navalsnpr, all that nonsense happened prior to the Air Force jumping into the CADPAT uniform game. It will be the working dress for non aircrew Air Force types. The Air Force's Clothing and Equipment Millennium Standard (CEMS) program seems to be going a little smoother than the Army's Clothe the Soldier program.



Good to hear that it is going well on the Air Force side. I remember when we changed from the old NCD's to the current NCD's, the ship I was on was completed in 2 days. I was really amazed that it had happened so quickly. One thing they did to assist with the conversion was that every member of the ship's company had to submit their current sizing and then they did a bulk order for the unit.


----------



## Inch

Navalsnpr said:
			
		

> Good to hear that it is going well on the Air Force side. I remember when we changed from the old NCD's to the current NCD's, the ship I was on was completed in 2 days. I was really amazed that it had happened so quickly. One thing they did to assist with the conversion was that every member of the ship's company had to submit their current sizing and then they did a bulk order for the unit.



The same thing happened here. They sized every Air Force pers belonging to 12 Wing or CFB Halifax during a 2 week period in Nov and then ordered them all at the same time with delivery in Feb.


----------



## aesop081

Same thing here in winterpeg..........line-up and size !! delivery in Feb......


----------



## PViddy

And the only difference to this Airforce CADPAT is the Navy blue rank and ID tapes ?   Any pics around ? i suppose this all part of the ICS (formally IECS).   This is now the Airforce clothing form! haha my bad sorry Navy gents.

cheers

PV


----------



## greener

The air element doesn't have buttons .. but I think the land element CADPAT is going that way as well.

update: I was wrong, see aesop081's post below.


----------



## aesop081

greener said:
			
		

> The air element doesn't have buttons .. but I think the land element CADPAT is going that way as well.



Check you facts...they have buttons all the same , the are just covered up by a piece of material to prevent snags......and yes, the army is going that way too.....started a while ago.


----------



## Navalsnpr

For Air Force members, the Rank and ID Tape are Blue as you mentioned. Additionally a Blue T-Shirt is worn underneath replacing the old OD T-Shirt.

The only photo I've seen with some clairity is located on the Combat Camera Website.

Air Force CADPAT

You have to download the hi-res copy to see the color and this member obvioulsy has not been issued with the new t-shirts as of yet.


----------



## PViddy

cool, thanks for the info.

regards

PV


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Are sailors supposed to have 1 or 2 reefer jackets?  If we're supposed to have 1, do airpersons not get a heavyweight & a lightweight tunic (i.e. 2 tunics)? 

PS.  Re: my last post: I'm obviously insane.


----------



## Inch

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Are sailors supposed to have 1 or 2 reefer jackets?   If we're supposed to have 1, do airpersons not get a heavyweight & a lightweight tunic (i.e. 2 tunics)?
> 
> PS.   Re: my last post: I'm obviously insane.



Air Force has lightweight and heavyweight CFs, 2 pants and one tunic for each uniform, to my knowledge we're the only ones that do anymore. The Army used to have the tans but those ceased to exist in the 90's.


----------



## PViddy

Affirmative.  I am in current issue of a "summer weight" and "winter weight" tunic.  Although the winter never get's worn.

cheers

PV


----------



## Navalsnpr

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Are sailors supposed to have 1 or 2 reefer jackets?



I've never heard the term reefer jacket before. Are you refering to the Tunics??

If so we get issued 2 identical tunics as part of your initial issue.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

I have also only heard them referred to as tunics even by Clothing Stores.


----------



## PViddy

I thought "reefer" jacket was a Navy thing ?

PV


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

PViddy said:
			
		

> I thought "reefer" jacket was a Navy thing ?
> 
> PV



Never heard of it until it was referred to as such here and I have been navy since '94.


----------



## Navalsnpr

Same here, been Navy since '92 and the only reefer term I've ever heard in the Navy refers to the sea containers that have refrigeration built in.

We use them when the freezers/refrigerators are down for maintenance.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Same here Navalsnpr.

I googled reefer jacket and this is what I came up with. Hardly looks like what I have to wear on Divisions.

http://www.nauticalia.com/uk-c/clothing/jackets/

Then again why take my word on it....  :


----------



## Navalsnpr

Looks like what a fisherman would put on to sorta dress up way back when!!

And a lot more expensive than our tunics at  £189.00.....Ouch!


----------



## Infanteer

New Navy Reefer Jacket...Yarr.


----------



## aesop081

Wait a minute...i know that guy....he's on Vancouver isn't he !!!!     NCI Op.........


----------



## Sailing Instructor

The reefer jacket (or monkey jacket, as 'monkey' refers to it being short: i.e. shorter than the old frock coat) is the true name for what the CFSS now calls a tunic.  It is also the name of the working overcoat the USN officers wear (the ratings wear a 'pea-coat').  'Reefer' is derived from reefing in the sails.  This was usually done in very bad weather, thus requiring a coat, which I suppose was also short to permit movement.  That the CF calls the reefer a tunic is no doubt due to the navy wearing the green tunic for a few decades & the name sticking.  However, the white, high-collared, dealie is technically the navy's only tunic as it is a cross between a shirt & jacket.

Thanks for telling me the navy has 2 jackets/tunics.  I thought something was suspicious when I was told we only got one.  As for 'initial issue,' I suppose that the phrase technically refers to the first time a CF member gets a piece of kit but I believe the main purpose of the rushed issue-parade for a whole platoon on basic is to provide the soldiers with just enough kit to keep them busy ironing & sewing.

How long ago, in the RN & CF, did what the CF now calls no 3s cease to be working dress?  (I assume for Canada it was when the RCN became the CF & the whole uniform changed but I don't know for sure.)  I have seen lots of photos of officers in helmets, webbing, & reefer jackets from ww2 & even some photos of RN officers wearing that rig for what appeared to be everyday work aboard ship.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

When I look up our tunic for its NATO Stock Number is does not say Reefer Jacket. It says _tunic_, I would say you have to accept the fact thats its called something different and move on or be looked upon strangely when you call it something its not.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson

Hi everybody

I have this to say about the naval tunic ... I wish that we could go back to the 8 botton jacket. We look like a) American naval officers, or b) Non-commissioned members. I think that Canada is the only Commonwealth country that has the same uniform for all its naval members.  :crybaby: I think that we should go back to the former 8 bottons for officers, and keep the 6 bottons for NCMs (or even futher ... by giving sailors the jumpers again). 

Have a nice day!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

ctjj.stevenson said:
			
		

> Hi everybody
> 
> I have this to say about the naval tunic ... I wish that we could go back to the 8 botton jacket. We look like a) American naval officers, or b) Non-commissioned members. I think that Canada is the only Commonwealth country that has the same uniform for all its naval members.  :crybaby: I think that we should go back to the former 8 bottons for officers, and keep the 6 bottons for NCMs (or even futher ... by giving sailors the jumpers again).



We finally got rid of the class distinctions in uniforms (though small vestiges remain (at least in the Army, like goldwire cap badges for officers, regimental ties, etc.) why on earth would you want to reintroduce them?  I thought the purpose of a _uniform_ was to make people look _uniform_?  Rank distinctions are fine, but there is no need for completely different uniforms.  Officers aren't a seperate class of people anymore, they are simply a higher rank.  We are reaching the point that NCMs are just as well educated as the officers, so why make distinctions?


----------



## ctjj.stevenson

Personnally, I guess that I like the 8 botton uniform better, therefore, here would be my next recommendation ... just to add in two extra bottons. I think that this uniform actually looks sharper that the one that we have today. My two cents.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> When I look up our tunic for its NATO Stock Number is does not say Reefer Jacket. It says _tunic_, I would say you have to accept the fact thats its called something different and move on or be looked upon strangely when you call it something its not.



I accept that CFSS calls it a tunic & that it is the common term for the black jacket nowadays.  However, I was merely pointing out why (I think) it is called a tunic rather than a reefer/monkey jacket, which it used to be.  I suppose in this matter, I am speaking with an excess of traditionalism: preserving the use of an antique name for a garment even though it does not help my life out in that everyone I talk to is confused upon the words 'reefer jacket.'  

As for 8 vs 6 button, I'd prefer the 8 button, but it could be another example of my excess antiquarian history.*  Although I must add that I would bring in the other 2 buttons for all ranks, so the 'true uniform' issue is a moot point.

As for the jumper...man is that a sexy uniform.  Aesthetically, I like it, but I'm not going to argue against the class distinction issue (not within the military, anyway).  What about American & British (& all of the other countries which have essentially copied the RN uniform) sailors, though?  Are we to assume that their navies see the jr ratings as uneducated by dressing them differently?

*Friedrich Nietzsche, _On the advantage and disadvantage of history for life_.


----------



## SeaRoom

Does anyone know where you get buy the metallic-thread cap badges? The Canex at St. Jean had that a while back, but I haven't seen them since.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

I think you are able to purchase them from the QM.  I wish the beret badge had gold wire, now that I think of it.


----------



## winchable

The navy is big on tradition historically I would wager (though I don't assert) that the navy holds onto tradition more so then any other branch, any navy does I believe, which is why I'm surprised the old uniforms for NCOs has been done away with.

Is it a Canadian-ism? Trying to forge a seperate and unique identity from everyone else?
Or is it just something we lost when the branches merged, though we did managed to eventually get back a few things.

I agree with Michael that uniforms are meant to encourage uniformit and we are at a point where the differences between NCOs and Officers are few so many might disagree with holding on to what might be seen as one of the last few vestiges of class differences, but even specifically with the navy, can anything be said of tradition Re: the Jumpers etc?


----------



## Sailing Instructor

I have heard the USN did the same thing we did with their uniforms in the 1970s & ended up turning back as (apparently) most sailors liked the old square rig better.  Personally, I loved the rig when I was a sea cadet (we wore it as ceremonial day & mess dress).  It was perhaps the only article of clothing I found attractive on myself & girls!

But I do admit that the tight, bell bottomed uniform is not suited to older sailors.  Though it is only intended for jr ratings (and they would tend to be younger) I find it rather disconcerting after a certain age.

The RN & USN wear it without a problem (from what I know).  Add to that my conservatism & I'm all for reinstating square rig.  That said, the navy's uniform has gone thru so many changes that hanging on to a (albeit longstanding) temporary uniform is really only perhaps reactionary conservatism.

All I really want back is the authorisation to wear the white trousers & reefer jacket as daytime ceremonial dress.  I'm not sure about the cocked hat, yet.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson

A few months ago, I found that someone was selling the RCN officer buttons on e-Bay (which were used before unification). I won them, and now they are on my uniform. Therefore, I am no longer wearing the generic NCM uniform buttons. 

It's funny, I have a tunic of a non-commissioned officer, however with officer buttons. I am certain that someone that was in the RCN before unification would certainly think that this is odd.


----------



## Drummie

Does anyone know when abouts the navy stopped wearing handkerchiefs (sp?) in what I assume is a handkerchief pocket on our tunics, or reefer jacket (for sailing instructor  ) ?

I'm working on the Battle of the Atlantic for my military history class, and most of the pics I see of officers of that time are wearing something in the pocket. When did that practice cease? And why is the damn pocket still there if we can't put a 'chief in it??


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

The Fighting 47th said:
			
		

> Does anyone know when abouts the navy stopped wearing handkerchiefs (sp?) in what I assume is a handkerchief pocket on our tunics, or reefer jacket (for sailing instructor  ) ?
> 
> I'm working on the Battle of the Atlantic for my military history class, and most of the pics I see of officers of that time are wearing something in the pocket. When did that practice cease? And why is the damn pocket still there if we can't put a 'chief in it??



we stopped wearing the hanky in our pockets (or up our sleeves) when we went to the green uniform in 1968. It was never re-instated when we came out with the DEU in 1984, It is a British affectation that can stay in the past along with the archaic term of "reefer jacket" which probably hasn't been used since the 19th Century. 
I joined in 77 (as a Reg Force MARS Officer) and there was never any mention of the term "reefer jacket." At any rate an officer never would have worn a reefer jacket as they didn't used to mucky their hands doing any reefing (of sails).

Just a word to the wise...it's nice to know about customs and traditions...it's really geeky to keep referring to things in a manner that nobody else understands or cares about. 

The uniform of today was basically taken from the USN pattern because it was deemed politically incorrect to go back to a British Uniform. A lot of people wanted the old square rig back and distinctive uniforms for Chiefs and POs. It's not a class distinction thing it's a rank distinction thing no different from rank badges....it's easier to tell who's who on parade etc and looks a lot sharper...IMHO.


----------



## Hawk

brin11-did you ever get an answer to what is a square rig? Check out this website -scroll way down to the commissioning picture of our sailors on parade at the CFS Mill Cove (I was there at that time). The sailors in collars gunshirts and silks are in square rig.

http://jproc.ca/rrp/mc_mill_cove.html

Sexy -- oh yes!!! Would turn my head any day  


Hawk


----------



## Neill McKay

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> we stopped wearing the hanky in our pockets (or up our sleeves) when we went to the green uniform in 1968. It was never re-instated when we came out with the DEU in 1984, It is a British affectation that can stay in the past



A handkerchief is a very useful thing to have.  Fold it right and you can fit it into an inside pocket without creating a bulge, but it would be a lot easier to be able to just pop it into the breast pocket.  You will find no end of Canadian, thoroughly non-British, men who do just that in civilian clothing.


----------



## Roy Harding

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> A handkerchief is a very useful thing to have.  Fold it right and you can fit it into an inside pocket without creating a bulge, but it would be a lot easier to be able to just pop it into the breast pocket.  You will find no end of Canadian, thoroughly non-British, men who do just that in civilian clothing.



Including me - the hankie is great for wiping sawdust caked sweat out of your eyes - I don't wear a bandanna because I don't wear loose clothing around industrial machinery - period.

Anyway sorry for the hi-jack - I'm finding this thread very interesting, having never served with the Navy.

Roy


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Hawk said:
			
		

> brin11-did you ever get an answer to what is a square rig? Check out this website -scroll way down to the commissioning picture of our sailors on parade at the CFS Mill Cove (I was there at that time). The sailors in collars gunshirts and silks are in square rig.
> 
> http://jproc.ca/rrp/mc_mill_cove.html
> 
> Sexy -- oh yes!!! Would turn my head any day
> 
> 
> Hawk



Yeah aren't those uniforms great?? Yes they did and still do turn heads. Love them!

Hankies are fine but keep em outta sight I say...who wants to see your old snot rag anyway?? ;D


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Note in the pics of Mill Cove circa 1967 none of the Naval Officers had the hankie in their breast pocket. :


----------



## Hawk

I'd never heard of a breast-pocket hankie in uniform either. It might have been from an earlier era.

The commanding officer in those pictures. LCdr Young was a great guy-we loved him! He banned saluting on the base, and one day stood a sailor at attention in the all-ranks galley and dressed him down -in front of everyone. Normally forbidden, but the reason was he didn't get invited to buy a square on the hockey pool. Caused a great laugh-and he got first choice after that!!! He called in a favour and got real Pusser Rum for our plum pudding at Christmas dinner.


Hawk


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

I was at the Honours and Awards ceremony yesterday at Stad and three CPO1s were presented with their Warrant. They were all lined up getting their pic taken with the Admiral. The Admiral was beaming largely while all the Chiefs were scowling at the camera (probably cause the photo tech was in CADPAT ha ha) The Tech said "smile gentlemen." And one of the old salts snapped "We're Chiefs; we don't smile!" It brought down the house!


----------



## Hawk

Excellent answer. Come to think of it, I don't remember too many smiling chiefs, either! I remember some that could tell the most outrageous jokes, without ever cracking a smile!


Hawk


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

Well i have to say 
1) the Square rig or whatever you call it...wow...no way would i want to be wearing that let alone working in it, it just seems very unprofessional, not to mention the hat, seems cumbersome and ill-suited for duty. Basically that uniform is in the past and for gods sake let it rest there.

2) I also agree about the distinction between ratings and officers...contrary to how things were 100 + yrs ago, ratings are educated now, and in my opinion shouldnt be segregated or made fun of because they do not have a commission, we already have slight differences like NCM's wear parade boots, while officers wear oxfords, and the gold leaves/lining on the peak cap, and obviously the ranks...more then that i think is unnecessary, and would become a social class commentator rather then identification marker.

3) Our NCD's are horrible, threads just keep popping out of it constantly and like someone else said wash and dry them a few times and the fire retardant qualities are rendered almost null.  I must say that i also dont understand why a WORK uniform i.e a uniform you wear to paint, or fix a dirty engine, and do all that fun stuff should be ironed, it baffles my mind that you need creases in your shirt in the morning or whenever your watch is on, to only screw them up by rolling your sleeves or working which naturally dirties and ruins your wonderful ironing job...lets just say i dont have a very high opinion of the NCD's, and i dont exactly understand why they were designed to be the way they are...CADPAT to me makes total sense...ironing NCD's is like ironing CADPAT...you wouldnt do it, cuz it doesnt make sense.  We need to revise our NCDs and make them more work friendly...i mean for god's sake its to work in and get dirty and messy and what not...not to be worn to a fancy supper.


----------



## CallOfDuty

Our NCD's are horrible, threads just keep popping out of it constantly and like someone else said wash and dry them a few times and the fire retardant qualities are rendered almost null.  I must say that i also dont understand why a WORK uniform i.e a uniform you wear to paint, or fix a dirty engine, and do all that fun stuff should be ironed, it baffles my mind that you need creases in your shirt in the morning or whenever your watch is on, to only screw them up by rolling your sleeves or working which naturally dirties and ruins your wonderful ironing job...lets just say i dont have a very high opinion of the NCD's, and i dont exactly understand why they were designed to be the way they are...CADPAT to me makes total sense...ironing NCD's is like ironing CADPAT...you wouldnt do it, cuz it doesnt make sense.  We need to revise our NCDs and make them more work friendly...i mean for god's sake its to work in and get dirty and messy and what not...not to be worn to a fancy supper.
[/quote]

   +1 to that!!!!!


----------



## Sub_Guy

Coveralls........ I've said it before, and I'll say it again....

But then again I'm in the Air Force, a place where common sense is appreciated.


----------



## aesop081

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> But then again I'm in the Air Force, a place where common sense is appreciated.



 :rofl:

you're gonna be in for a schock !!!


----------



## Sub_Guy

I am sure the Air Force has its moments, but the navy seems to have a problem with mass retardation.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

CADPAT on a ship makes no sense at all. CADPAT is a camoflage uniform for hiding in the bush...looks really retarded on board a ship. You need fire retardent gear for onboard a ship that you can quickly close all the openings when you go to action stations....the Aussies have coveralls and they make all kinds of sense.....bring them on I say.


----------



## Mike Baker

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> CADPAT on a ship makes no sense at all. CADPAT is a camoflage uniform for hiding in the bush...looks really retarded on board a ship.


Oy, that is just silly.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Spoken from your vast experience with the Army and Navy is it? The CADPAT uniform was designed by the "Clothe the Soldier" program. The disruptive camoflage pattern was field tested for approximately ten years to come up with a uniform that best suited field soldiers. The uniform also has a coating to make it somewhat resistant to IR sensors.
We need uniforms in the Navy that suit our environment. we don't need a uniform to help us hide in the bush or evade IR sensors. We need a uniform that helps when fire breaks out onboard due to enemy action or other misadventures. When we go to action stations we have to close all the openings on our clothing and don flash gear etc......a one piece overall is best suited to that.
what exactly is silly about all of the above?


----------



## Mike Baker

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Spoken from your vast experience with the Army and Navy is it? The CADPAT uniform was designed by the "Clothe the Soldier" program. The disruptive camoflage pattern was field tested for approximately ten years to come up with a uniform that best suited field soldiers. The uniform also has a coating to make it somewhat resistant to IR sensors.
> We need uniforms in the Navy that suit our environment. we don't need a uniform to help us hide in the bush or evade IR sensors. We need a uniform that helps when fire breaks out onboard due to enemy action or other misadventures. When we go to action stations we have to close all the openings on our clothing and don flash gear etc......a one piece overall is best suited to that.
> what exactly is silly about all of the above?


I may not have no military background, but I sure do know enough that wearing camo on a ship is weird, and makes no sense as you said before. It is like wearing an orange jump suite and trying to hide from someone in the winter.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Mike_Baker said:
			
		

> I may not have no military background, but I sure do know enough that wearing camo on a ship is weird, and makes no sense as you said before. It is like wearing an orange jump suite and trying to hide from someone in the winter.


Sorry I thought you meant what I was saying about Sailors uniforms was silly...my bad. 
We are in agreement...army camoflage gear on board is not appropriate. The other things we need is steel toed boots and warm outer clothing. There are a lot of nasty heavy things that fall on ones toes onboard ships and when you're out on a wind and spray swept deck in the North Atlantic in winter you have to have proper weather gear.


----------



## Mike Baker

No worries. I know what the Navy goes through, because my cousin in Halifax is in the Navy and he usually tells me of what it is all about on ship, and some of the proplems that they face.


----------



## Neill McKay

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> 1) the Square rig or whatever you call it...wow...no way would i want to be wearing that let alone working in it, it just seems very unprofessional, not to mention the hat, seems cumbersome and ill-suited for duty. Basically that uniform is in the past and for gods sake let it rest there.



There's not much doubt that it's not suitable as a working rig, but it does mark the wearer as a sailor -- everybody knows what a sailor looks like.  I understand that the USN did away with it for a time, but brought it back after a strong majority of junior ranks voted to.  I don't know the circumstances around that -- obviously voting on things is rare enough in any military organization.



> 2) I also agree about the distinction between ratings and officers...contrary to how things were 100 + yrs ago, ratings are educated now, and in my opinion shouldnt be segregated or made fun of because they do not have a commission



But officers are made fun of because we HAVE a commission!   More seriously, but not wanting to take the thread in the direction of an officers vs. NCMs argument, I've seen more NCMs express disdain for officers than I have officers for NCMs.  No sensible officer -- and such a thing does exist in large numbers -- seeks to diminish the NCM cadre.



> wash and dry them a few times and the fire retardant qualities are rendered almost null.



I don't believe that's correct.



> I must say that i also dont understand why a WORK uniform i.e a uniform you wear to paint, or fix a dirty engine, and do all that fun stuff should be ironed, it baffles my mind that you need creases in your shirt in the morning or whenever your watch is on, to only screw them up by rolling your sleeves or working which naturally dirties and ruins your wonderful ironing job



I won't try to speak for those who make such decisions, but I will say that NCDs, being the usual dress of the day for a pretty large fraction of the navy, are worn in a lot of circumstances where there's no likelihood at all of getting them dirty, greasy, torn, or otherwise buggered up.  Maybe the problem is that we're expecting NCDs to be too many things to too many people -- they're almost turning into a present-day garrison dress, i.e. a rig that can't decide if it's for hard-core filthy work or wearing around the office, so it's not quite right for either environment.


----------



## axeman

I must say that i also dont understand why a WORK uniform i.e a uniform you wear to paint, or fix a dirty engine, and do all that fun stuff should be ironed, it baffles my mind that you need creases in your shirt in the morning or whenever your watch is on, to only screw them up by rolling your sleeves or working which naturally dirties and ruins your wonderful ironing job

I won't try to speak for those who make such decisions, but I will say that NCDs, being the usual dress of the day for a pretty large fraction of the navy, are worn in a lot of circumstances where there's no likelihood at all of getting them dirty, greasy, torn, or otherwise buggered up.  Maybe the problem is that we're expecting NCDs to be too many things to too many people -- they're almost turning into a present-day garrison dress, i.e. a rig that can't decide if it's for hard-core filthy work or wearing around the office, so it's not quite right for either environment..


Well what about us that do expect it to stand up to the abuse of a normal work day, wich is around the engines ,diesels, and various plants that are part of the SHIP,or training that is expected to happen? as to Ironing when I was in the infantry i was tasked with the guns [ARTY FOR YOU NAVY TYPES]and was promptly told iron my combats and spit polish my combat boots . I told em to look at the tag which proscibed that exact order. well the tags say it is allowable but the Question is "Is it really required?. 

 >


----------



## aesop081

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> like someone else said wash and dry them a few times and the fire retardant qualities are rendered almost null.



Thats the problem when FR clothing is washed with your other clothes.  Cotton ( or whatever else) fibers will get into the fiber of you NCDs in the wash and dry....thats whats ruining the FR properties ( non-FR fiber mixed in with the nomex).  Same with putting them in the dryer with those dryer sheets.......wax isnt exactly FR now is it ?

I wash my flightsuits seperate from everything else for a reason


----------



## CallOfDuty

The NCD's just look so damn sloppy....if you are doing any sort of heavy work, the shirt starts coming undone...the pants get caught in the seaboots...they get wrinkley.  Then after you wash them so many times they become a dark shade of green instead of black...etc etc.  
     Then when you are walking around at stad, and you've been working hard that day, you get in trouble for looking dirty!!  " Yes P.O. I'm sorry I have some dust on my work pants P.O.......won't happen again!!"
CHeers
COD


----------



## Stoker

Naval Improved Clothing and Equipment (NICE)

   NICE, A Navy Project created to correct and improve some of the deficiencies that were with our naval operational dress and equipment.  This $91 Million dollar plan is subdivided into 17-smaller projects is now underway.  Many items will add new capabilities to support work/operations in wet/hot/cold/windy weather.  In conjunction to the NICE project items, other Naval Combat Dress and associated equipment will be revisited for possible product improvement to capitalize on new fabric technology that has developed over the past few years.  As examples, the NCD jacket and trousers will be improved for better fit and appearance and other items such as the anti-flash hood will be studied in order to find better fabrics and/or design that could possibly bring this and other garment to the next higher level.
   Clothing and items included as part of the trial and a brief description are included below. 
   
NICE Clothing and Issue
2-in-1 Rain suit/wind breaker - A 2 piece waterproof, static dissipative suit of navy blue / black color.  Intended for  wear as a walking out dress with NCDs during hot, cool weather and during low relative humidity conditions. It will have thermal dissipative characteristics to be wearable from +10 to +25C. This item is presently being trialed.
Boots - Safety Boots - Hot Weather - Non-insulated (wearable to + 40C) safety boots with static dissipative or insulative penetration.  POL resistant with non-slip soles. A waterproof, Moisture Vapour Permeable (MVP) capability.
Boots - Safety Boots - Temperate Weather - Insulated (wearable to -25C) with static dissipative or insulative penetration, POL resistant with non-slip soles. A waterproof, Moisture Vapour Permeable (MVP) capability.
Socks - This foot covering will incorporate the new wicking properties (e.g.: Cool Max) to ensure maximum anti-blister capability. 
Drawers, Temperate Underwear (Unisex) 
“T” Shirts, Cotton, crewneck - To provide the standard issue of a black coloured shirt for wear with NCDs and for Naval personnel who are required to wear CADPAT. 
Coveralls Hot Weather - Tan colour, lightweight (5.5 oz Nomex), fire retardant, anti-static one-piece coverall (MOTS). This item, currently in the naval inventory is required for additional issue to submariners and clearance divers. 
Coveralls Temperate Weather - Navy blue in colour (7.5 oz Nomex), fire retardant, anti-static one piece coverall (MOTS). This item, currently in the naval inventory is required for additional issue to submariners and clearance divers.
Thermal Underwear - The NICE issue to all naval personnel of 5 shirts and 5 drawers. 
Environmental Clothing - It will be worn as field operational clothing in place of the current naval combat clothing. It will be the same as or similar to the Integrated Clothing Ensemble (ICE) currently being fielded by DSSPM. Suitable for Port Security and Base Defence Force duties as well as, field clothing for Training Establishments CFFSE and CFNOS (anti-static, POL phobic). 
Gloves Cold/Wet Weather - Combat Gloves. 
Sunglasses - Sunglasses for universal issue to naval personnel, for protection from UV rays in both summer and winter. The lenses will be shatterproof and the frame compatible for wear with headsets, helmets and ear defenders. 
Ballistic Vest - Ballistic protection for ships' bridge personnel, Force Protection Teams, Naval Boarding Party and Port Security personnel.
Anti-flash Hoods & Gloves - Protection for ships' personnel during action/emergency stations in the event of flash or fire resulting from incoming ordinance or domestic fire. NICE project will explore market improvements in FR materials. There will be no design change to the current hood and glove. 
Hot Weather Hat - This headwear will be wide brimmed combat hat, in Navy blue or natural in colour. Issue of this hat would be limited to personnel deploying on “Hot Weather” operations only. 
Fleece Liner (removable) Navy Winter Parka - The current Navy Winter Parka is acceptable for wear in temperatures of +15C to -10C. Naval personnel are subjected to extreme cold temperatures dipping to -40C. A removable fleece liner would compliment the Navy Winter Parka for comfort in extreme cold temperatures. 
Multi-tool - For members in occupations who work in austere conditions will require a multi-purpose tool, incorporating a knife blade, pliers etc. The multi-tool will be for limited issue regulated by Scale of Issue.


----------



## JamieR

Can someone tell me what the white sleves and white hood/masks are that navy wear during combat/combat training? What are they for?

http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_images/gallery/large/ISD01-9605a_L.jpg


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Flash Gear...worn to protect the wearer from flash burns and fires


----------



## jollyjacktar

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Well i have to say
> 1) the Square rig or whatever you call it...wow...no way would i want to be wearing that let alone working in it, it just seems very unprofessional, not to mention the hat, seems cumbersome and ill-suited for duty. Basically that uniform is in the past and for gods sake let it rest there.



As you can see by my avatar, I like a "proper" sailor's uniform and would love to have that as my walking out dress.  I am not, a Commissioned Officer and do not wish to even look similar to one while in my DEU.  Officer's should look like officers, and that uniform is fine and correct for them.   However, the RCN died in 67 and the traditional uniforms soon after.  I don't think you have to honestly fear that they would ever return.  Each to their own, mate.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Well i have to say
> 1) the Square rig or whatever you call it...wow...no way would i want to be wearing that let alone working in it, it just seems very unprofessional, not to mention the hat, seems cumbersome and ill-suited for duty. Basically that uniform is in the past and for gods sake let it rest there.



So you're sayind that the RN, USN, and most of the other Navys in the world have unprofessional looking sailor's uniforms. ha ha ha ha ha ha
It's us that are out of step my friend. The USN brought the sailor suit back....and we would do well to follow suit. You'll never be mistaken for a commisionaire again!  ;D


----------



## Navy_Blue

2010 is fast approaching.  What better time to get back to the basics of Square Rig and any other radical change in the way we look act and work.  A nice Birthday present for the Canadian/Royal Canadian Navy.   ;D  Three years to bug the higher ups and politicians to make it happen too.


----------



## M Feetham

OK, you don't have to iron your NCD's at sea, as long as they are clean and wrinkle free. Also, at sea when you do your laundry, military clothing is washed seperatley from your civies. When you are along side you should at least have one crease running down the center of the front of the leg. the shirt should at the very least be wrinkle free. Ironing your NOMEX clothing will not destry the FR capability of the clothes if you follow the instructions that are on the labels. As far as Camouflage onboard ship's, there was talk about some sort of weird ass CBT that were supposed to be blue and grey. I saw it on a post here somewhere but cannot verify it. As for Nametapes and rank insignia, for those wearing combats the Canforgen put out this year states that they will be for Nametpes- OD green background, black lettering with a black fouled anchor, black border. The rank insignia will be OD background with black rank and canada. I have already seen some of them here in St Jean and they lool very sharp. The black t-shirt at the moment will not be issued, and the acquisition of them will be at the members cost until further notice. I am unsure about the square rig, I think it looks sharp, but it would be expensive to bring it back into service. Here is the ref for the canforgen. Sorry no link, i'm not sure how to do it.
CANFORGEN 027/07 -07 CMS 008-07 191431Z FEB 07
NAVAL DRESS UPDATE - NAVAL ENVIRONMENTAL INDICATORS - CADPAT
Cheers.
Feet


----------



## axeman

If the uniform is intended for use in combat what  purpose does the crease do?


----------



## M Feetham

AT sea, there is no purpose for the crease, but along side, it is still a matter of dress and deportment, we are still expected to dress and behave as professionals. A lot of people bitch and moan about having to iron their clothes. Really, c'mon is it really that difficult. Personnaly i think they are just being lazy. We still get paid by the crown and the crown expects certain things in return for that paycheck. Not really all that much when you think about it.
Cheers, Feet


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Depends on the ship you're on whether you require creases or not at sea.


----------



## M Feetham

I agree, however for the most part, as long as your NCD's are clean and wrinkle free at sea you won't have any problems. I do know that some PO1's like to have inspections on the odd occasion and a very few insist that clothes be pressed even at sea. The situation usually dictates, if you are in any type of sea state above a flat calm, ironing in the mess can be a little difficult and I absolutley agree with ironing your uniforms when alongside, but then I have been at the recruit  school for two years and I am little brainwashed.
Cheers, Feet


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

You must be almost due to come back soon there M.


----------



## M Feetham

Posted on 16 july, going to HMCS Algonquin, house is sold, setting up my DIT today. It's gonna be rough going back to a ship after working here for two years.
Marc


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

*shudder* west coast *shudder*


----------



## Sub_Guy

The NCD's are working clothes, sure they shouldn't be wrinkled up, but ironing them just too look professional?  The navy has the salt pepper rig to look professional, and the NCD's to work in.  There is no need for creases to be pressed while alongside, unless you are an instructor at the school, but for the guys working on board ship a crease should be the least of their worries.  Just keep it wrinkle free.

I seriously think that the main reason behind the Navy not getting rid of the NCD and going with coveralls is the fact that the coveralls don't hold a good crease.


----------



## axeman

So what you guys are saying is that the small line running down each sleeve and in  front and back of each pant leg  makes you look like you know whats going on and that you know your job? I keep hearing that the navy is the most forward looking of the 3 arms of service,yet we are still hanging onto old style traditions because they are tradions . That is a contradiction between statements and action. It is time for the NCD's to be replaced in my opinion maybe a split in the ranks as a coverall in the U.S. Coast Guard style with the belt and a better fit then the current coveralls that we HT's and firefighters wear for when we are onboard, and wearing of standard COMBATS [CADPAT style] for when we are not onboard. I can hear the moaning start already about it but the uniform is already in servive and is accepted throught the CF as a standard for garrison dress. Why cant we catch up the the rest of the forces instead of trying to be the self autonomous arm,where we will force everyone else to accept what we are doing ?


 >


----------



## hugh19

That's easy because we are the NAVY not the flipping army or air force and should look like sailors not soldiers. get it Through your head that the navy has traditions that date back to the Royal Navy.  To paraphrase Admiral Cunningham. It takes hundreds of years to build up a tradition and a day to destroy them. SO keep your bloody army gear with the army  or have the guys in the field start wearing square rig. Otherwise please f*** off with the putting sailors in army crap.


----------



## Sub_Guy

No one is putting sailors in CADPAT (yet).  

If you want to look like a sailor bring back the square rig (big fan here, but I don't have to wear it, for the record I would).

Didn't the USN adopt some sort of Naval Cadpat for shore based sailors?


----------



## M Feetham

All right fellas, this is supposed to be a nice adult converstion, we don't need to tell anyone off. The reason I say that the uniform should be ironed is that it is authorized for wear to and from work. If guys are going to wear NCD's in public then in my opinion it should be pressed, clean and stain free. Boots should at the very least be well blackened. The new boots aren't supposed to have regular Kiwi polish put on them, they have the paste. It doesn't matter what element you are with, if you are unable to present and crisp, clean, professional military appearance then every person who has a hate on for the milirary is just given one more reason to complain. If members do not take enough pride in themselves, their  uniform and their commitment to serve,  they can always get out. I have lots of copies of the request for voluntary release here in my office, Get me their emails and I will send them a copy. PRIDE and DEDICATION folks they are the cornerstones of service Army, Air Force or Navy, it makes no difference.
Feet


----------



## axeman

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> No one is putting sailors in CADPAT (yet).
> 
> If you want to look like a sailor bring back the square rig (big fan here, but I don't have to wear it, for the record I would).
> 
> Didn't the USN adopt some sort of Naval Cadpat for shore based sailors?




 yes they have its the standard cam pattern for the US forces for persons not afloat . . as to tradition .... the navy simply says its the senoir service but theres always been 2 guys willing to poke each other in the eye with a pointed stick before  there was a need to float a guy to poke the other  with said stick.. the icon is PPCLI  after many years with them  i"m in the navy now so I know what im talking about .... I'm just saying in a none-navy enviroment ie garrison have all members of the CF in one uniform until they are on parade make things easier on the stores system to get us on the pointy end what we need rather then worring about more crap  ... as to the NAVY claiming to be based on tradition WHERES ME DAILY GROG   ;D


----------



## Neill McKay

axeman said:
			
		

> wearing of standard COMBATS [CADPAT style] for when we are not onboard. I can hear the moaning start already about it but the uniform is already in servive and is accepted throught the CF as a standard for garrison dress. Why cant we catch up the the rest of the forces instead of trying to be the self autonomous arm,where we will force everyone else to accept what we are doing ?



If you spend some time reading Canadian naval history from the period of about 1965-1985 you'll understand, in all its gory detail, why dressing sailors in green is a bad idea.


----------



## axeman

Yea i know all about the combined arms uniform fiasco. I'm not trying to sweep the navy into the army and airforce im just simply saying is the current CF NCD uniform is lacking .Members of all trades I know of currently moan and groan about it and nothing gets done about it on the sake of TRADITION. Well I know of lots of traditions that have been phased out of the navy ,air force and army . Isnt it time that the navy catches up with reality and design and issue a naval style of dress that works for the sailor instead of fighting them? All I want is a uniform that i can work in without the major drama that happens with the current NCD uniform . This uniform that we''ve been issued has been around for a long time ,long enough that it's shortcomings has been noted and could stand to be worked on . As to putting sailors in the cadpat yea maybe its not the greatest of ideas as some one may mix them up with a SOLDIER.. But it would put them in a uniform that doent make a mess of itself after 15 minutes of real work . :threat: This is simply an opinion and should be treated as such .  Hey after how many years we are finally getting Leopard 2 tanks ?


----------



## Sub_Guy

axeman said:
			
		

> This uniform that we''ve been issued has been around for a long time ,long enough that it's shortcomings has been noted and could stand to be worked on .



The Current NCD uniform has been around since 99.  The way things seem to be going we can expect a new naval work dress sometime in 2031 when they retire the last Felex CPF.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Axeman, I'm an HT.  If I wanted to look like a Soldier, I would have stayed in that direction.  A Sailor should look like a Sailor, an Airman(woman) should look like an Airman(woman), and a Soldier should look like a Soldier.  Right now, I am in the sandbox.  While in the Army's playground I will dress like the other kids as is fitting for all the various reasons.  As for drama with NCD's I honestly have not seen any that was unreasonable.


----------



## nerdgirl

Is the baseball cap optional? I think a black beret looks a lot better!


----------



## kratz

Your unit's ball cap is authorized for wear in operational settings, ie: on board, or within dockyard. It is not approved as walking out dress. You will need your beret or peak cap anyhow. Your divisional system will assist in answering these questions once you are posted in and issued a ball cap.


----------



## Radar114

Actually you can expect the "new" NCDs whenever they run out of your size.  Went to trade in my jacket yesterday and since they still have my size in the last style, I get that.  

So my jackets lasted 3-4 years before they have to go in....3 years left till pension.....1 jacket just replaced....hmmmmm

Doesn't matter.


----------



## Monsoon

An unexpected (and not bad) proposal from today's Globe & Mail editorial. I can only surmise that there must be a former naval officer on their editorial staff; I can't imagine who else would have given this a second thought (let alone a first one):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/the-canadian-navy-a-tradition-to-restore/article1231223/

*The Canadian Navy: A tradition to restore*

_Globe & Mail, 25 July 2009
Editorial_

In 2010, Canada's Navy will mark its centennial. Consideration is under way as to how to honour the service and sacrifice of that branch of the military. There will certainly be parades, fleet reviews and other ceremonies. There should be forward-looking announcements on construction of joint support ships and replacement of Canada's fleet of destroyers. But the government should also yield to pressure from its naval officers and restore some naval traditions thrown overboard during the 1960s. The Minister of National Defence, Peter MacKay, for example, could use the occasion to reinstate the executive curl to the service dress of Canadian naval officers.

The distinctive loop on the upper stripe of naval officers uniforms means little to most Canadians, but it means a great deal to many of those who currently serve as officers in the Navy, and to those who previously wore the executive curl for decades in the service of their country. Its origins can be traced to 1856 when it was introduced by the Royal Navy. It was worn by officers from the early days of Canada's Navy, and most notably, during the Battle of the Atlantic, when the Royal Canadian Navy and RCNVR (together with the merchant navy and Royal Canadian Air Force) played a pivotal role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

When Canada underwent military unification in 1968, the Navy's executive curl was lost along with all the other distinctive elements of the naval uniform. While it was later restored to naval officer's mess dress, the service uniforms were unchanged. As a result, the rank stripes on uniforms of Canada's naval officers today are the same as, say, those found on the uniform of the officers on a cruise ship. In contrast, most NATO navies use some form of the executive curl for their officer rank insignia, as do the navies of Commonwealth countries, such as India. It would surely serve to build morale, and pay tribute to past sacrifice, were Mr. MacKay to yield to the wishes of many naval officers past and present and restore this small embellishment to naval uniforms. But not, of course, as a substitute for joint support ships and destroyers.


----------



## Neill McKay

> As a result, the rank stripes on uniforms of Canada's naval officers today are the same as, say, those found on the uniform of the officers on a cruise ship.



Ironically, even some cruise ship (and other merchant marine) officers have a variation on the executive curl in the shape of a diamond, either above their stripes or in the middle.


----------



## Edward Campbell

There is one factor to keep in mind: *one* of the drivers for the “jolly green jumper” experiment was to make us *much* more distinctively Canadian which equated to making us *much* less British in appearance. While I know that many other navies use the “executive curl” it might still be seen as a British affectation.

Secondly, I well remember, back in the ‘60s, that the _main_ complaint (second only to suit colour) amongst naval people was not the curl, it was the cap badge or, more pointedly, the profusion of cap badges. Most naval people – and a good many air force people, too – wanted everyone in a common cap badge with some other ways to mark branch identity.

One suggestion for officers, floated by a staff college mate of mine, was:

•	Executive curl for MARS and MARE;

•	Purple background colour for MARE;

•	Common naval cap badge; and

•	Branch badges above the stripes for MED, LOG and so on.  

It seemed a reasonable approach to me, but my mate, who reached very high rank, apparently was never able or never bothered to press the idea. Perhaps the internal _politics_ of uniforms is still too intense.


----------



## North Star

Ah uniforms...a minefield of meaning and perception.

I believe most politicians, Liberal/Conservative, view Unification as a mistake for multiple reasons.

I think the solution is ultimately to go back to uniforms that tie the CF to its history. The Navy and Air Force DEU are pretty good attempts at that regard. Reintroducing an executive curl and supporters curls would be a finishing touch on a relatively successful effort to rebuild the Navy after the gree decades. Similarly, the Air Force could move to making their rank insignia closer to the RCAF's. 

As for the Army, I personally think it's time to move away from our current DEU (which appears to be directly descended from the unification uniform with a few minor changes) to something reflecting the Service Dress of the Canadian Army. Furthermore, with the tan uniform gone, Army DEU is terrible in the summer. A Khaki version may look to "British" for a small group, but just because the British found a good colour for their Service Dress shouldn't disqualify it from our use.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Yes, indeed, uniforms are an easy topic to chew over.

My guess is that you will not find much support, in the Army, for either the expense or angst that a “new” (old) service dress uniform would generate.

Some, maybe even most soldiers *might* want some minor ”edits” to the current uniform but I have never heard any grumbling at the bar of the mess I frequent. I’m also not sure that there is any consensus on what minor, low cost changes might be welcome. Another guess is that there would be very little objection to the “executive curl” in the Navy but I’m not sure there is any item on which many soldiers might agree. I have no sense that the Air Force wants to revert to the old, subdued colour badges. Personally I think the blue and gold looks fine, but what do I know?

The _”Coates of many colours”_ project, as we called the current DEUs issued when Bob Coates was MND, cost a few tens of millions – money many thought could have been better spent elsewhere. That doesn’t means that we were not happy to see our navy and air force friends in more “familiar” uniforms, just that money was tight. When is money not tight?


----------



## North Star

Lol..you nailed it right there...when is spending any money on clothing worthwhile, except for operational clothing?

If changes to DEU are to take place, it should happen slowly over a period of years to minimize costs.


----------



## FSTO

Change I would like to see on the Navy Officers uniform:
8 buttons instead of 6 (C&PO's and the rates stay at 6)
Executive Curl
Navy Operations Badge on all peak caps and berets

Honestly how much would it cost to tailor 2 extra holes on the tunic, and make the curl. I watched the tailor in Esquimalt make me executive curl shoulder boards in about 15 minutes.


----------



## Stoker

FSTO said:
			
		

> Change I would like to see on the Navy Officers uniform:
> 8 buttons instead of 6 (C&PO's and the rates stay at 6)
> Executive Curl
> Navy Operations Badge on all peak caps.
> 
> Honestly how much would it cost to tailor 2 extra holes on the tunic, and make the curl. I watched the tailor in Esquimalt make me executive curl shoulder boards in about 15 minutes.



I had a look at the new NCD's, they are slowly making it into the system. The new pants and jacket are OK, the pants have a lot of extra pockets which are nice and have sewn in creases. The jacket looks ok, except for the Canada flag on the shoulder which seems out of place. Hopefully the new NAVY/MARINE name tags won't come out, they look way too flashy.

As per the executive curl, it would be nice to bring it in, however with the shortage of money the navy is facing and with the ecomony the way it is, I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. If money is to spent, I would rather see it spent on the NCM's not the officers.

My 2 cents.


----------



## Sailorwest

Stoker said:
			
		

> As per the executive curl, it would be nice to bring it in, however with the shortage of money the navy is facing and with the economy the way it is, I think the money would be better spent elsewhere. If money is to spent, I would rather see it spent on the NCM's not the officers.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> [/=quote]
> On what would you prefer money spent for NCM's vs. officers and why? We have moved very far in the direction of 'rank has no privilege' so I guess I don't understand understand why a modification of the uniform to have appropriate representation of history and culture to instill greater pride in the service would be so troubling.


----------



## Radar114

Then the ballcap was approved for anyplace that NCDs are approved for wear.


----------



## medaid

Honestly? We as a service needs to quit thinking about things that make us look pretty, and more into things that makes us more efficient and comfortable for work.

Current NCDs = FAIL

I don't believe that everyone should be in NavOp capbadge. Specialist/Support trades i.e. Med/Int/Log/MP/JAG etc does not belong to the Navy they are 'purple' and should wear Branch insignia.
The only people that should be in NavOp badges are already in them the MARS and the MARE.


----------



## Neill McKay

Radar114 said:
			
		

> Then the ballcap was approved for anyplace that NCDs are approved for wear.



When was that?


----------



## Occam

N. McKay said:
			
		

> When was that?



The MARGEN came out within the last two days.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak); MARGEN 34/09(Unclass):
".....THE NAVY BLACK UNIT BALLCAP (RED FOR SEA TRAINING) MAY NOW BE WORN AS AN ALTERNATIVE, OPTIONAL ITEM WITH NAVAL COMBAT DRESS ASHORE OR ANYWHERE THAT NCDS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR.  THE ONLY MARKINGS AUTHORIZED ARE ON THE FRONT PANEL OF THE CAP AND THEY REMAIN THE UNITS NAME AND DESIGNATOR WITH SIDE NUMBERS AS APPLICABLE.
2. THIS POLICY APPLIES TO ALL UNITS CURRENTLY AUTHORIZED BY MARCOM TO ISSUE BALLCAPS FOR WEAR WITH NAVAL COMBAT DRESS...."


----------



## Sub_Guy

It's about time, the ballcap looks much better than the stylish beret... 

Now that I sit here and think about it, the new policy does make sense.  Stand by for the MARGEN informing the Naval branch that NCD's are no longer permitted as a walking out rig.


----------



## Radar114

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Stand by for the MARGEN informing the Naval branch that NCD's are no longer permitted as a walking out rig.



LOL


I like the beret actually, as long as those wearing it, wear it properly.  The new ones with the cloth band are better, much better than those older versions that flop down like a pizza and come to the bottom of the earlobe.  Or is worn sitting back on the head so you get to see all the forehead of the wearer.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

MedTech said:
			
		

> Honestly? We as a service needs to quit thinking about things that make us look pretty, and more into things that makes us more efficient and comfortable for work.
> 
> Current NCDs = FAIL
> 
> I don't believe that everyone should be in NavOp capbadge. Specialist/Support trades i.e. Med/Int/Log/MP/JAG etc does not belong to the Navy they are 'purple' and should wear Branch insignia.
> The only people that should be in NavOp badges are already in them the MARS and the MARE.



What would you have the hard sea trades wear if not the Operations capbadge?


----------



## medaid

Ex-D my comment was directed to one earlier re:every one wear the Operations badge. That's why I'm saying those who are hard sea trades already do wear them. Everyone else dpesnt belong to the Navy to begin with.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ex-D my comment was directed to one earlier re:every one wear the Operations badge. That's why I'm saying those who are hard sea trades already do wear them. Everyone else dpesnt belong to the Navy to begin with.



Kewl...thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Neill McKay

MedTech said:
			
		

> Everyone else dpesnt belong to the Navy to begin with.



I would say that the navy is everyone in the CF who wears the navy DEU, not just those in the Naval Operations Branch.


----------



## Monsoon

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I would say that the navy is everyone in the CF who wears the navy DEU, not just those in the Naval Operations Branch.


I'd agree to the extent that you're talking about the admin trades that support the navy. Your argument becomes more tenuous when you consider all of the miscellaneous purple trades - Bioscience, HCA, JAG, Medical Officer, Nursing Officer, PSO, TDO, Physiotherapy, Social Work, etc. For the most part, when these people are enrolled they're just asked what DEU they want to wear. Sometimes, people who won't ever work with the navy directly pick the navy DEU because they like the look of it. Should they really be wearing a Naval Operations cap badge?

Put another way, how do you think the RCR would feel about a Physiotherapist in Halifax who'd never been to Petawawa wearing the RCR cap badge?


----------



## Neill McKay

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I'd agree to the extent that you're talking about the admin trades that support the navy. Your argument becomes more tenuous when you consider all of the miscellaneous purple trades - Bioscience, HCA, JAG, Medical Officer, Nursing Officer, PSO, TDO, Physiotherapy, Social Work, etc. For the most part, when these people are enrolled they're just asked what DEU they want to wear. Sometimes, people who won't ever work with the navy directly pick the navy DEU because they like the look of it. Should they really be wearing a Naval Operations cap badge?



No, and to make my intention clearer, I don't have any problem with the current cap badge situation.  Everyone in the Canadian Forces wears a cap badge indicating his or her branch (or regiment), and I don't have any problem with which occupations are attached to the Naval Operations Branch.

What I'm saying is that the Naval Operations Branch is a subset of the navy (and a rather large one at that); it's not the navy in itself.  There's no "fourth element", although I understand that was considered when DEUs were introduced.

I read an interesting paper a while ago (possibly in the Canadian military Journal) about individuals' identities.  The trend is that people in the navy identify tend to identify with the navy as a whole, those in the army with their corps or regiment, and those in the air force with their trade.  It would be interesting to talk to some naval DEU pers who really are removed from the navy.  I don't mean a staff officer in Ottawa (since Ottawa is, in its own way, a navy town too), but, say, a cook or PSO, all of whose postings have been inland.  I wonder how strongly they would identify with the navy.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

N. McKay:
We just let those in Ottawa think they are a Navy town but . . . THERE ARE NO SHIPS IN OTTAWA!!! - Hence no Navy town - Sorry for yelling - pet peeve of mine. Back to the original comment about standing by for a MARGEN not allowing DEU as walking out - could be although 'they' have promised we wont go to the extreme that we did in 1985 for the 75th. I actually didn't mind that then but I was young, impressionable and thought the old bus driver greens were cool! I keep wondering though - are we being set up for failure here?
As for some of the purple trades, I heard a 3 ringer (Naval Cdr) giving a brief at a D-Day ceremony a couple years back. There was a heavy attendance of Naval veterans and this individual pronounced the ships name HMCS HAIDA as "Hay-dee". I asked him after - said he had never heard of the ship!!!! That is embarassing.


----------



## medaid

N. McKay said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to talk to some naval DEU pers who really are removed from the navy.  I don't mean a staff officer in Ottawa (since Ottawa is, in its own way, a navy town too), but, say, a cook or PSO, all of whose postings have been inland.  I wonder how strongly they would identify with the navy.



I don't identify strongly with the Navy at all. I identify with my Branch. Pure and simple. Ask an MP the same thing, "Are you an MP or are you an MP in the Navy?" I think the answer you'll get predominantly is  "I'm an MP. My DEU doesn't matter."


----------



## Neill McKay

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> We just let those in Ottawa think they are a Navy town but . . . THERE ARE NO SHIPS IN OTTAWA!!! - Hence no Navy town - Sorry for yelling - pet peeve of mine.



Fair point, but there is a strong navy staff presence in Ottawa that goes back to the time when the RCN HQ was there.  Or, to put it another way, there are a lot of navy members in Ottawa doing navy jobs, as opposed to purple jobs, so it's not just another inland posting.

(Nothing to do with this thread, but as a matter of interest most or all Coast Guard ships are registered at Ottawa, presumably for some administrative reason.  I'm surprised that it's a port of registry but evidently it is.)


----------



## Otis

I identify myself as Navy first, Supply second (but then again, I've had several Army types tell me that Navy Supply Techs don't really belong to the Log branch either, because we're NAVY ... so I guess nobody really wants us Salty Bin rats)


----------



## NavyShooter

I for one am VERY pleased to see the Navy as finally a member of the "Canadian" Forces...wearing the flag of our nation on our shoulders, along with the rest of the services.

That said, I still think the ship's crest should be on a velcro patch so it can be as easily swapped as the sailors seem to be nowadays...

NS


----------



## Aerobicrunner

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> We just let those in Ottawa think they are a Navy town but . . . THERE ARE NO SHIPS IN OTTAWA!!! - Hence no Navy town



HMCS CARLETON??
http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/navres/1/1-n_eng.asp?category=95


----------



## NavyShooter

HMCS Carleton is a building.  

Not a ship, despite the name.

It's a Naval Reserve unit.

NS


----------



## Hawk

Used to be called cement frigates or landlocked frigates


Hawk


----------



## medaid

Something that makes a NRD feels like it abaord ship... Or part of the Navy does not a ship make.


----------



## hugh19

They are stone frigates.


----------



## Hawk

Stone frigates!! I knew there was another expression, and I was too tired to put it together!  Cement frigate and land locked frigate were expressions we used at Esquimalt in the 1960's.


Hawk


----------



## Occam

Hawk said:
			
		

> Cement frigate and land locked frigate were expressions we used at Esquimalt in the 1960's.



Not used by any sailor...   ;D

It's always been "stone frigate", which is any shore-based Naval establishment.


----------



## MARS

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/sailor_life/warship_terms.htm

see para (4) below the photo.  Very true - not an actual sea-going platform at all - thus not a "ship" in the normal use of the word.  But everything happens as it would onboard a sea-going ship.

I suppose it seems odd at first - and even wierder for army/air force types that "come aboard" and ask why we salute as we enter the bulding.  Sailors get used to it pretty quickly.


----------



## gcclarke

MARS said:
			
		

> http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/sailor_life/warship_terms.htm
> 
> 
> I suppose it seems odd at first - and even wierder for army/air force types that "come aboard" and ask why we salute as we enter the bulding.  Sailors get used to it pretty quickly.



Saluting when entering a building? Yes, I must say, I do agree. It does seem odd. 

Although I suppose that the reserve divisions also inherit the battle honours of the warship which they are named after? I guess I can follow that logic.


----------



## kratz

gcclarke said:
			
		

> *SNIP*Although I suppose that *the reserve divisions also inherit the battle honours of the warship which they are named after?* I guess I can follow that logic.



Yes, the NRDs did inherit the battle honours of the previous ships they were named after. Sadly after unification and the closure of some NRDs, those honours were not retained. Only a few NRDs have been reactivated since unification and to add insult to injury, they were not named after the same ships, therefore not entitled to reacquire the previous battle honours, according to the naming conventions.


----------



## observor 69

The Stone Frigate at Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston, Ontario was constructed during 1813 to store part of the fleet from the War of 1812 which had been dismantled pursuant to the Rush-Bagot Treaty of 1817. The former warehouse was converted into a dormitory and classrooms when the college was established in 1876.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Frigate


----------



## Comahawk

I just wanted to ask a quick question regarding nametags and the cadpat. I'm a NCdt and I am intending to order my nametags soon (I do not really want to wait too long for them, so I am ordering from CP Gear), however I have hit a snag. I am attached to an Army base and no one seems to know exactly which side of the name the anchor is suppose to go on, so if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## gcclarke

Comahawk said:
			
		

> I just wanted to ask a quick question regarding nametags and the cadpat. I'm a NCdt and I am intending to order my nametags soon (I do not really want to wait too long for them, so I am ordering from CP Gear), however I have hit a snag. I am attached to an Army base and no one seems to know exactly which side of the name the anchor is suppose to go on, so if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.


The following link seems to indicate that it should go on the left:

http://cms.cadets.gc.ca/rcis/pac/content-contenu.aspx?id=64678&ekfxmen_noscript=1&ekfxmensel=e5a1dcbef_147_307&LangType=3084


----------



## yoman

Comahawk said:
			
		

> I just wanted to ask a quick question regarding nametags and the cadpat. I'm a NCdt and I am intending to order my nametags soon (I do not really want to wait too long for them, so I am ordering from CP Gear), however I have hit a snag. I am attached to an Army base and no one seems to know exactly which side of the name the anchor is suppose to go on, so if anyone could help me it would be greatly appreciated.



All of my name tags have the anchor to the right of the name.


----------



## PMedMoe

yoman said:
			
		

> All of my name tags have the anchor to the right of the name.



The anchor (or crossed swords or bird) are _before_ the name.  If you are looking at the name tag, it is to the left of your last name.


----------



## tabernac

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> The anchor (or crossed swords or bird) are _before_ the name.  If you are looking at the name tag, it is to the left of your last name.



Not so. Only the Army and the old CADPAT Navy/AF name tags have that. My anchor is after my name, as is the albatreagle on my roommates name tag.


----------



## PMedMoe

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Not so. Only the Army and the old CADPAT Navy/AF name tags have that. My anchor is after my name, as is the albatreagle on my roommates name tag.



Go figure.  Even the Army (or Navy or Air Force) _has_ to be different in that aspect.   :


----------



## Nfld Sapper

IIRC the army ones came out first and the rest decided to modify their placement after.....


:chessy:


----------



## PMedMoe

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> IIRC the army ones came out first and the rest decided to modify their placement after.....



 I agree, let the Navy/AF go back to wearing their own uniforms.


----------



## jollyjacktar

My first batch of name tags in 06/07 the Anchor was to the left, now it's all are to the right.  I am told that this was due to the fact that your shoulder straps on whatever you might be wearing covered the "what flavour am I" indicator.  Makes it easier to be more polite if you give a damn on what flavour the person you are talking to is.  Personally I prefer to recognised as a Sailor not a Soldier or Airman and make the effort to reciprocate.


----------



## PMedMoe

If one is wearing the proper colour name tags (green for Army, blue for AF and black for Navy) there shouldn't be a problem with being addressed properly.

Not to mention, Navy is the only one with different ranks.


----------



## medaid

Another chickenhawk decision...


----------



## jollyjacktar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> If one is wearing the proper colour name tags (green for Army, blue for AF and black for Navy) there shouldn't be a problem with being addressed properly.
> 
> Not to mention, Navy is the only one with different ranks.



Well lets see..... If you are here in the sandbox as I am again at present, we are all wearing the same coloured name tape.  All that separates us is the crossed Swords, Golden Eagle or fouled Anchor in that regard.  And as for the green it all depends on where you come from.  All of my green have been just like the Army style with the exception of the identifier.  

And no, really we are not the only ones with the different ranks.  Just call a Patricia Colour Sgt a PO2, or a Bdr a LS or say a Tpr a AB.... and see how they react.  Even the Army has it's traditions and differences.  

As for being addressed properly, that only goes if the one doing the addressing wants to make the effort to get it right.  If I had a dollar for every time I have been addressed as MCpl I could buy myself a 40 pounder or two of Johnny Walker Blue when I rotate home.   :2c:


----------



## medaid

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> If I had a dollar for every time I have been addressed as MCpl I could buy myself a 40 pounder or two of Johnny Walker Blue when I rotate home.   :2c:



Pffft you know you like it  ;D


----------



## FDO

Jollyjacker, I feel your pain. Living up here in Army land as a P1 if I had a nickle for everytime I was called "sir" I could retire. Don't they know I work for a living and my parents were married before I was born!!?


----------



## armyvern

FDO said:
			
		

> Jollyjacker, I feel your pain. Living up here in Army land as a P1 if I had a nickle for everytime I was called "sir" I could retire. Don't they know I work for a living and my parents were married before I was born!!?



Two way street --- if I had a dollar for every time I was addressed as "AB", then "OS", then "LS" even "Killick" while I was posted in Halifax ...

And I wore blue then work dress!! -- with a f'n wedge (we didn't have AF berets), so it was FN OBVIOUS that I was not navy ... but pers actually went out of their way to ensure they addressed me improperly --- once even accompanied by a rousing rendition of Anchors Away ... then they all shook their heads in amazement when the memo addressed to the career shop was turned in wherein I requested a posting to CFB Petawawa ... field side. A decision I've never regretted.


----------



## jollyjacktar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Two way street --- if I had a dollar for every time I was addressed as "AB", then "OS", then "LS" even "Killick" while I was posted in Halifax ...
> 
> And I wore blue then work dress!! -- with a f'n wedge (we didn't have AF berets), so it was FN OBVIOUS that I was not navy ... but pers actually went out of their way to ensure they addressed me improperly --- once even accompanied by a rousing rendition of Anchors Away ... then they all shook their heads in amazement when the memo addressed to the career shop was turned in wherein I requested a posting to CFB Petawawa ... field side. A decision I've never regretted.



Zactly my point.  A Sailor, Soldier, or in your case Airwoman does not want to be mistaken or worse deliberately called one of the others.  Especially the hard trades.  I once was a purple too, AF in 1 BG.  There was no mistaking what I was dressed in the blue workdress.  There were so many blends of us on parade including the red berets I heard someone say once that we looked like a box a smarties.

There always will be assholes who will wind you up for sport like that, shame you could not have slammed their collective gates when they were swinging.  Guess I get mine back by putting Navy stickers on Army things.  ;D  Always good for a show.  

Oh, and I especially hate being preached at by some Pongo, that I am a "Soldier first".  I may dress like one, and at times have to behave like one but I am not one.  Period.  And no, it is not an "honour" to called one either.


----------



## Neill McKay

FDO said:
			
		

> Living up here in Army land as a P1 if I had a nickle for everytime I was called "sir" I could retire.



I read a post several years ago from a WO who had served, it seems to me, in Cyprus was was attracting a salute from the same Australian captain every morning.  In that case it wasn't a question of his element, but the fact that a Canadian WO (or PO1) has a rank insignia that is used for a major in most of the Commonwealth.  (After a few days of this the WO bought the captain a beer and explained the finer points of Canadian Forces rank insignia, and I'm sure everyone lived happily ever after.)


----------



## FDO

I put it down to training. The Soldiers are trained to call certain NCM ranks with Sir. I have stopped worring about it even though I wear an Navy uniform. I don't wear CADPAT. It's either 3B or NCD. If it bothered me a lot I'd have ulcers by now. Although my preference is PO. Just pay me twice a month and give me my leave when I ask for it and I'm good. Now if the Army would adopt the 1000 soup tradition I'd be a very happy sailor. There are bigger things to worry about right now than to get bent out of shape over being called by a "proper" CF rank even if it is the wrong element. I just say build a bridge, get over it!


----------



## jollyjacktar

I don't get bent about it.  If I did that, I would look like a pretzle 24/7 pretty well.  But it does not mean that I have to accept it without gently correcting the offender for future.  

But, "Soldier first" does yank my chain still.


----------



## Quag

Ugggh....hate to inform you but seeing as to how you are in the CF you ARE a "soldier first".

Every trade in the CF supports the most basic unit of the military, the infantry.  That is indiscriminate whether you are an Air type, Sailor or cook.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Quag said:
			
		

> Ugggh....hate to inform you but seeing as to how you are in the CF you ARE a "soldier first".



That's Army propaganda to the extreme, having been in the Navy and the Air Force I have NEVER heard anyone mention "Soldier First".   Although I have heard, "Sailor First" and "Airman First".  The only ones I hear mention the "Soldier First" are hard Army types.


----------



## gcclarke

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> That's Army propaganda to the extreme, having been in the Navy and the Air Force I have NEVER heard anyone mention "Soldier First".   Although I have heard, "Sailor First" and "Airman First".  The only ones I hear mention the "Soldier First" are hard Army types.



Indeed. Frankly, it smacks of extreme arrogance to come in and try to inform members from another element that our priorities are wrong. The NDA doesn't mention a clause stating "everyone is a soldier", and I haven't seen the CANFORGEN decreeing such. Especially considering that whenever addressing members of all three elements, it's always sailors, soldiers, airmen and airwomen. Three distinct groups. 

I am a sailor, an officer, an engineer, a CSEO, a geek, etc. But I am not a soldier. The fact that I may, at times, support land operations no more makes me a soldier than the members of an air detachment aboard one of HMC Ships suddenly transform into sailors.

We are all members of the Canadian Armed Forces. We are all warriors. But it is frankly bloody insulting to have people come in here and try to dictate how I should view and refer to myself.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Quag said:
			
		

> Ugggh....hate to inform you but seeing as to how you are in the CF you ARE a "soldier first".
> 
> Every trade in the CF supports the most basic unit of the military, the infantry.  That is indiscriminate whether you are an Air type, Sailor or cook.



Sorry, but gcclarke is correct. You are trying to take in _internal_, army, maxim and apply it _externally_, where it should not and, in my  opinion *cannot* be applied.

"Soldier first/tradesman second" is a good rule, _inside_ the army. Inside the navy - which conducts operations quite _independent_ of anything the army does, requiring no army support - they are, generally, "sailors first," of necessity.

Going a bit farther, if I may, we often toss "soldier first" about with thinking that many of our tradesmen *must* be "tradesman first" - even when they are in danger - because that's what you *need* from then when your vehicle or weapon is broken down, when you are short of supplies and when you need to be evacuated.

We are all members of many teams, beginning with the CF and extending down through service, regiment, corps or branch to ship, battalion or squadron and to (sometimes specialist, _technical_) sub-unit and team. Sailors, soldiers and air force members all do their jobs - sometimes "alone" in their unique _environments_, sometimes as part of joint and combined task forces. Sailors are "warriors" but they are not and need not be soldiers.

A little history, if I may: in 1939 and '40 and '41, while the Canadian Army was being trained and equipped - because it was in no respect _ready for battle_, the Canadian Navy - equally unprepared - put to sea, into *battle*, because there was a *decisive battle* being waged, more important than the invasion of Italy, more important, indeed, that Normandy, and the Navy could not wait, it was denied the _luxury_ of proper training and adequate equipment. Poorly trained sailors in second rate ships went to sea and fought - the army had nothing to do with it; the army wasn't involved, except, now and again as passengers; the Navy was *fighting* a critical Naval campaign while the army waited. They were, all, "sailors first," they, and a few air force members (eventually a lot of air force members, but in 1940 only the famous "few") fought their own battles, in their own environments - decisive battles, while the soldiers watched from the sidelines and waited for their turn. 

You must do your job, as a soldier, as a _specialist_, as well as you can and you must rest assured that the sailors and air force members are doing theirs the same way. And someday your *primary* job may involve guarding a dockyard or a flying station, "defending" the ships and sailors and the aircraft and the people who fly and maintain them while they get on with the *fighting*.

Regards
ERC


Edit: spelling error corrected


----------



## jollyjacktar

ERC, as always, eloquently put.  BZ.  And that is more or less what my Dad said years ago.  And he was one of the Soldiers who was waiting whilst the RCN and RCAF got on with it.


----------



## trigger324

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak); MARGEN 34/09(Unclass):
> ".....THE NAVY BLACK UNIT BALLCAP (RED FOR SEA TRAINING) MAY NOW BE WORN AS AN ALTERNATIVE, OPTIONAL ITEM WITH NAVAL COMBAT DRESS ASHORE OR ANYWHERE THAT NCDS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR.  THE ONLY MARKINGS AUTHORIZED ARE ON THE FRONT PANEL OF THE CAP AND THEY REMAIN THE UNITS NAME AND DESIGNATOR WITH SIDE NUMBERS AS APPLICABLE.
> 2. THIS POLICY APPLIES TO ALL UNITS CURRENTLY AUTHORIZED BY MARCOM TO ISSUE BALLCAPS FOR WEAR WITH NAVAL COMBAT DRESS...."



does anyone know what prompted this change in the dress regs for ncd's?  i was off on an extended period of leave when this came down and since i've been back to work, i can't get a straight answer why it happened, nor can i bring myself to wearing my ballcap as part of my 'walking out rig'...don't get me wrong, when i'm in civies i've usually got a baseball cap on, because i love wearing one, but i just wouldn't feel right with that as my headress in uniform.  my army and airforce friends wear berets with their everyday operational/occupational wear while coming and going, i just seem to prefer to wear the equivalent.  call me pusser...


----------



## kratz

I do not take anything I view online as gospel until I confirm it at work. As for the MARGEN approving the use of the ballcap and the reason for the change...I have read the reference and no reason for the change is offered. 

In fact many locations I am informed, where NCDs are approved still do not allow the ballcap for walking out rig. Ultimately, I think the change is meant to allow the average sailor to drive to and from the ship in one headdress, park and walk into work without getting into a dressing down over forgetting to change headdress. This happens too often near the gates between the dockyard and parking lots. 

This is my personal experience and not an official answer, just some common dog flogg.


----------



## gcclarke

kratz said:
			
		

> I do not take anything I view online as gospel until I confirm it at work. As for the MARGEN approving the use of the ballcap and the reason for the change...I have read the reference and no reason for the change is offered.
> 
> In fact many locations I am informed, where NCDs are approved still do not allow the ballcap for walking out rig. Ultimately, I think the change is meant to allow the average sailor to drive to and from the ship in one headdress, park and walk into work without getting into a dressing down over forgetting to change headdress. This happens too often near the gates between the dockyard and parking lots.
> 
> This is my personal experience and not an official answer, just some common dog flogg.



Well, if it had been up to me, the decision would have been made because I think the berets look silly, and the ball caps look better. But, that's just me. I rather think that kratz's answer hits a lot closer to home. The idea of being forced to change your uniform (even a part thereof) on your way to and from work is rather ridiculous. And let's face it, who wears their beret on ship? Even assuming that you have a choice, and that dress of the day isn't defined as NCDs plus ball caps.


----------



## Sailorwest

I was of the opinion that it was a bone thrown to sailors who were being told that they can't have a beard anymore in seagoing billets.  Probably not true but the decisions seemed to come out one in close succession.


----------



## gcclarke

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> I was of the opinion that it was a bone thrown to sailors who were being told that they can't have a beard anymore in seagoing billets.  Probably not true but the decisions seemed to come out one in close succession.



Safety issues versus dress and decorum issues? I would think they are probably unrelated.


----------



## kratz

I finally found one of our sailors wearing a set of the new NCDs. I commented on the Velcro pockets wearing out. The conversation turned to the small DEU buttons and I mentioned the big buttons from the old olive drab uniforms that could be opened with gloves on.

I was amazed when one of these new sailors (less than 2 years experience) wanted to see a Naval version of CADPAT vice the old or new NCDs. When I mentioned, I am used to the days of wearing salt and peppers to work daily, he was stunned.

The conversation was a reminder how the changes in dress affect the current members of the CF.


----------



## Monsoon

kratz said:
			
		

> I was amazed when one of these new sailors (less than 2 years experience) wanted to see a Naval version of CADPAT vice the old or new NCDs.


Interesting. I just spent a couple of weeks on a US ship and every one of the US sailors I talked to hated the new "navy camo" uniform that are being phased in (these guys had just started wearing them). I guess the grass really is always greener.


----------



## jollyjacktar

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Interesting. I just spent a couple of weeks on a US ship and every one of the US sailors I talked to hated the new "navy camo" uniform that are being phased in (these guys had just started wearing them). I guess the grass really is always greener.



Of course they hate them, they have to be the ugliest uniform designed after the former Garrison dress of the 90's which looked like something from a Canadian Tire nightmare.  Mind you the RAN cammo looks damn ugly too.  Some Armchair Admiral's idea no doubt.  Perhaps they thought morale was not low enough.


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## Pat in Halifax

It has now happenned - Unfortunately I was running late after having dropped someone off at the Dkyd and heading up to Stad (and in civis on a DWAD Friday), otherwise, I would have been all over this guy. I saw someone  getting out of his car wearing FF coveralls with a grean cammo jacket and black ship's ball cap - looked horrendous, embarassing.... I wondered how long it would take one sh**head to potentially ruin this!
Hindsight being 20/20, I should have stopped and been late for work.


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## gcclarke

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> It has now happenned - Unfortunately I was running late after having dropped someone off at the Dkyd and heading up to Stad (and in civis on a DWAD Friday), otherwise, I would have been all over this guy. I saw someone  getting out of his car wearing FF coveralls with a grean cammo jacket and black ship's ball cap - looked horrendous, embarassing.... I wondered how long it would take one sh**head to potentially ruin this!
> Hindsight being 20/20, I should have stopped and been late for work.



From MARGEN 034/09:



> THE NAVY BLACK UNIT BALLCAP (RED FOR SEA TRAINING) MAY NOW BE WORN AS AN ALTERNATIVE, OPTIONAL ITEM WITH *NAVAL COMBAT DRESS* ASHORE OR ANYWHERE THAT NCDS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR.



Emphasis mine. Very clearly that individual was not authorized to be wearing that particular get-up.


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## jollyjacktar

gcclarke said:
			
		

> From MARGEN 034/09:
> 
> Emphasis mine. Very clearly that individual was not authorized to be wearing that particular get-up.



As a FF, the coverall IS his ship board dress equivillant not NCD.  Therefore he should be in the right despite it looking not pretty.


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## Neill McKay

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> As a FF, the coverall IS his ship board dress equivillant not NCD.  Therefore he should be in the right despite it looking not pretty.



Equivalent, perhaps, but the MARGEN doesn't say "NCDs or equivalent".  Had the intention been to include coveralls the drafter would probably have said so.

Are coveralls authorized as a walking-our rig in the first place?


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## FDO

I was under the impression that you could not mix and match the uniforms. If the FF wanted to wear his coveralls as a walking out rig would he not have to wear the Air Force blue Gortex jacket and beret? If he was in CADPAT then he would wear the CADPAT jacket and beret.


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## quadrapiper

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> It has now happenned - Unfortunately I was running late after having dropped someone off at the Dkyd and heading up to Stad (and in civis on a DWAD Friday), otherwise, I would have been all over this guy. I saw someone  getting out of his car wearing FF coveralls with a grean cammo jacket and black ship's ball cap - looked horrendous, embarassing.... I wondered how long it would take one sh**head to potentially ruin this!
> Hindsight being 20/20, I should have stopped and been late for work.


Was this individual a CF Fire Service type, if that's the name of the organization? Or definitely CF proper? In other words, do these regs even apply?


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## gcclarke

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Was this individual a CF Fire Service type, if that's the name of the organization? Or definitely CF proper? In other words, do these regs even apply?



Yes, we're talking about one of these guys: www.forces.ca/html/firefighter_reg_en.aspx

Although it's an Air Force only trade, they often serve aboard HMC Ships. ... Not sure about the subs.


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## hugh19

Firefighters are allowed to walk in and out in their coveralls. They no longer have blue jackets just Cadpat ones. So he was properly attired. Not sure about the ballcap though.


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